# XMOS XU208 USB BRIDGES - THE LATEST GEN HAS ARRIVED!



## rb2013

An update to my Gustard U12 thread - announcing the newest generation of DDC's based on the new XMOS 200 series chips:
  
 The XU208 for example has twice the processing power of the U8 - 1000MIPS
  
 http://www.xmos.com/products/silicon/xcore-200/xu-series
  
  The xCORE-200 USB family of devices (XU and XUF) extends the popular xCORE architecture to provide increased performance, memory footprint and flexibility for the most demanding applications.
 xCORE-200 XU/XUF integrates up to two USB 2.0 PHYs (host or device) and implements a dual-issue processor pipeline to boost peak compute performance to 4000MIPS and 2000MMACS. Up to 1024KB on-chip SRAM memory is available. Each member of the xCORE-200 family has an embedded flash option for applications where additional security is required.
Features 
Devices ranging from 8 to 32 cores
Multicore compute between 1000MIPS (8 core) and 4000MIPS (32 cores)
Flexible, high performance configurable I/O capability
Integrated USB 2.0 PHY for high/full-speed host and device operation
Up to 2048KB on-board memory for demanding applications
Embedded QuadSPI flash options - up to 2048KB on-board
DSP integration using our native 32b/64b instructions
Free software library support to implement your exact mix of peripherals
Easy to use with our free xSOFTip Explorer and xTIMEcomposer Studio tools
  

  

*I have two new DDC boards in the mail and should be here in the next week or so:*

  

*The Q1-S featuring the XU208 with the ultra low phase noise NDK SD clocks.  I actually bought the X1 with the NDK clocks -the Q1-S is close but only a 2 layer board vs 4 layer for the X1.*

*Product Description:*

   X-1 digital interface of our team to develop a high-performance USB digital audio interface, using the XMOS latest xCORE-200 series chips. X-1 is the rare Japanese KDS low jitter TCXO clock digital system interface. X-1 digital interface using standard USB2.0  input interface, while X-1 has a wealth of output interfaces, including coaxial RCA and I2S interfaces.

*Features:*

1, X-1 is the first use of XMOS latest xCORE-200 series USB interface digital products. New generation XMOS chip, using more advanced process technology, performance than the older U8 chip doubled, reaching 1000MIPS processing capabilities.

2 , it is known, the core of the algorithm is heavy digital audio. Our team in the field of digital audio work for many years, at the same time get XMOS FAE support team, we conducted a number of technical improvements and optimization algorithms on the basis of the original firmware.

*Specifications:*

Each output interface supports sample rates:

PCM: 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz,

    176.4KHz, 192KHz, 352.8KHz, 384KHz

    [ Wherein I2S out support full sample rate , S / PDIF supports up to 192KHz]

DSD: 2.8 MHz (DSD64) - DoP, native

    5.6 MHz (DSD128) - DoP, native

    11.2 MHz (DSD256) - native

    [ Wherein I2S out support all DSD format , S / PDIF and AES / EBU support DSD64 DOP mode ]

Bits wide: the highest 32 bit over I2S output

      The highest 24 bit over S / PDIF

*Each interface electrical standards:*

1 , USB input socket is a standard USB-B type female, USB power supply range 4.5V-5.1V ;

2 , RCA connector outputs standard S / PDIF  signal level is 550mV ( standard connection load ), the output impedance of 75 ohms; 

*Design details:*

1 , carry out electricity as the mother of the acoustic design concept, pay attention to the power supply circuit design, high-performance, low noise and fast response of the LDO as the main power source. The entire board using a 2 -way independent of the LDO power supply, wherein the clock even partially adopted ADI 's ultra low noise LDO , in order to ensure the ultimate output performance laid a solid foundation.

2 , PCB motherboard with 4 -layer circuit board design, make sure you have a complete ground plane and power planes, high-speed digital design methods to ensure signal integrity and power integrity of the entire board. The clock signal special treatment, the use of package design and precise impedance control, thereby ensuring the signal quality and increase the clock anti-jamming capability. Input and output signals are to follow standard design, especially USB high speed signals using a 90 ohm differential impedance control.

There appears to be a i2s version available called the Q-1.


```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)][left] Each output interface supports sample rates : PCM: 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz,     176.4KHz, 192KHz, 352.8KHz, 384KHz     [ Wherein I2S out support full sample rate , S / PDIF supports up to 192KHz] DSD: 2.8 MHz (DSD64) - DoP, native     5.6 MHz (DSD128) - DoP, native     11.2 MHz (DSD256) - native     [ Wherein all DSD format support I2S out , S / PDIF support DSD64 DOP mode ] Bits wide : the highest 32 bit over I2S output       The highest 24 bit over S / PDIF System Compatibility :[/left][/color]
```
   

  
  

*And the more sophisticated Singxer F-1 XU208 using the totl Crystek CCHD-575 ultra low phase noise clocks.  But some other interesting features:*

  

*Specifications:*

Each output interface supports sample rates:

PCM: 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz,

    176.4KHz, 192KHz, 352.8KHz, 384KHz

    [ Wherein I2S out support full sample rate , S / PDIF supports up to 192KHz]

DSD: 2.8 MHz (DSD64) - DoP, native

    5.6 MHz (DSD128) - DoP, native

    11.2 MHz (DSD256) - native

    [ Wherein I2S out support all DSD format , S / PDIF and AES / EBU support DSD64 DOP mode ]

Bits wide: the highest 32 bit over I2S output

 

      The highest 24 bit over S / PDIF

*Product Description:*

F-1 digital interface of our team to develop a high-performance USB digital audio interface, using the XMOS latest xCORE-200 series chips. F-1 is the use of ultra- low-jitter digital clock system interface. F-1 digital interface using standard USB2.0  input interface, while F-1 has a wealth of output interfaces, including coaxial RCA and I2S interfaces.

*Features:*

1, F-1 is the first using the XMOS latest xCORE-200 series of high-end USB digital interface products. New generation XMOS chip, using more advanced process technology, performance than the older U8 chip doubled, reaching 1000MIPS processing capabilities.

2 , it is known, the weight of the core is digital audio algorithms. Our team in the field of digital audio work for many years, at the same time get XMOS FAEsupport team, we conducted a number of technical improvements and optimization algorithms on the basis of the original firmware.

1. Full isolation technology, 150Mbps full-chip isolation, interference can be completely isolated from the PC;

2. Source synchronous shaping technology and CPLD technology, I2S signal isolation after the re-shaping; thus eliminating the isolation chip to bring added jitter.

*3. The independent development of the system clock, usingCRYSTEK customized high-performance crystal, ultra-low phase noise, low jitter.*

Our team in the field of digital audio work for many years, at the same time get XMOS FAEsupport team, we conducted a number of technical improvements and optimization algorithms on the basis of the original firmware.

*Design details:*

1 The entire board using 2 independent way of LDO power supply, wherein the clock even partially adopted ADI 's ultra low noise LDO , in order to ensure the ultimate output performance laid a solid foundation.

2 The PCB motherboard with 4 -layer circuit board design, ensure that you have full power and ground plane layer, using the method of high-speed digital design, signal integrity and power integrity of the entire board. The clock signal for special treatment, using package design and precise impedance control, thereby ensuring the signal quality and increase the clock anti-jamming capability. Input and output signals follow a standard design, especially USB high speed signals using a 90 ohm differential impedance control.




  
 Here is my current ranking of the many USB Bridges I've had - Let's see if this new generation can beat the top ones:
  
Here would be my current ranking and ratings:
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious      130
PUC2 Lite - USB power                          110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen   109
Breeze with Cerious Graphene                108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                98
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                 95
Hydra Z with LPS                                    92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)             85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                          81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                    76
Gustard U12 stock                                   72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                      65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                      65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                               60
Audiophileo 2                                          50
M2Tech Hiface                                         40


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## mz2014

Hi.
 Have these interfaces a direct internal power supply  (without USB) and I2S output ?


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## ccschua

pls compare with diyinhk pro4A.


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## rb2013

mz2014 said:


> Hi.
> Have these interfaces a direct internal power supply  (without USB) and I2S output ?


 

 No direct power feed - but there are many solutions for USB power - I'm currently using a PUC2 Lite and a DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a.  The PUC2 lite has USB power only - the Pro3a can be powered either way.
  
 I don't use I2S for my DACs- only SPDIF - but it appears that they have the pins out on each board for I2S.
  
 Here is what has worked for me on the USB powered DDCs:
  
 So far the best is the TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious/DC iPur to the Regen then the iPur2.0 to the PUC2
  
 the next best the iUSB2.0/iPower 9VDC/DC iPur/iPur 2.0,
  
 then the 5VDC iPower/DC iPur/Pur 2.0
  
 Note all using a JB at the PPA2.0 modded into a VBUS blocker (and power and ground pin severed). 2G cable (no power leg with the Regen).
  
 The iPurifier 2.0 relocks so need to be powered...now getting ultra low noise +5VDC from the Regen.
  
 Each level of AC/DC filtering has opened up the sound - just shows how awful our modern day electrical grid is - digital noise pollution is horrendous.  cleaning the power is especailly noticeable on digital chain.  With all these femto second clocks - super sensitive to jitter effects and PS noise of many kinds.
  
 Edit:On the i2s - "*Screw position, I2S pin position is fully compatible with  Italy Amanero module."*


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## rb2013

ccschua said:


> pls compare with diyinhk pro4A.


 

 Well the X1-S is similar - but has the better XU208 vs the U8
  
 The F-1 XU208 has chip based noise isolation (CPLD Xilinx) for SPDIF like the Tanly (Spartan FPGA) and Hydra Z (Atmel FPGA?) - and looks like a unique USB chip based isolation system on the board.  Won't know more until the board arrives and I can get a closer look at the dual large chips in the middle.
  
 Also has multi LDO ultra low noise regulation via the ADI LDO's - but again will need to see which exact chips used.
  
 Here is the U8 based Tanly:

  
  
 Hydra Z:

  
 Note both use FPGA isolation and Crystek CCHD-957 audio clocks.


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## rb2013

Additional pictures of the F-1 XU208:


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## hugoboss

i saw this one month ago at taobao,
 if only they have finished product not diy like like this i will buy without thinking
  
  
 so this f1 board does it need any transformer like talema or murata
 or just plug it with usb then the coax out to dac?


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## hugoboss

oh my god i just check taobao they already have finished product but it costly man
 very costly compare to melodius or gustard it cost $300
  
 here is the pic
  

  

  
  
*SU-1 *digital interface of our team to develop a high-performance USB digital audio interface, using the XMOS latest xCORE-200 series chips. SU-1 is a self-developed ultra- low jitter clock system ( Crystek of CCHD-957 series ), with astandard USB2.0  input interface, rich output interfaces, including XLR balanced output AES, coaxial RCA and BNC, use HDMI socket output I2S interface output word clock WCLK.

      *SU-1 *long-time research and development for nearly a year, which has gone through many twists and turns and variables.

      *SU-1 *is the first machine we have developed equipment that is positioned in the high-end interface, is used mainly in the following three main technologies:

      1, full isolation technology (ground isolation), the use of 150Mbps full-chip isolation, interference can be completely isolated from the PC;

      2, source synchronous shaping technology and CPLD technology, I2S signal isolation after the re-shaping; thus eliminating the isolation chip to bring added jitter;

 

      3, the independent development of the system clock, using CRYSTEK high-performance oscillator, low phase noise and low jitter.

  
 plz somebody tell me is the hdmi i2s output support audiogd master 7?
 god this is so fast!!!


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## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> i saw this one month ago at taobao,
> if only they have finished product not diy like like this i will buy without thinking
> 
> 
> ...


 
 This board takes it's power from the USB +5VDC leads - many ways to cleanly power it - as I spelled out.  Like the highly regarded Yellowtec PUC2 Lite.
  
 Right now my PUC2 is fed from a Regen (which has on board 1uV ultra low noise regulators) which steps down +7VDC to +9VDC incoming voltage to +5VDC out, besides relcocking the USB data stream and impedance matching.  The Regen has a 2.5mm ext power feed - I'm using a linear power supply TeraDak DC-30W filter with a iFi DC iPurifier.
  
 This power chain is much better then either the on board AC to DC power supplies of the Gustard U12, Melodious or the Breeze Audio.  For one the TeraDak uses an R-Core transformer vs the Talema Torodial - much better noise rejection.


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## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> oh my god i just check taobao they already have finished product but it costly man
> very costly compare to melodius or gustard it cost $300
> 
> here is the pic
> ...


 

 Nice find!
  
 The SU-1 is basically a F-1 board with it's own AC to DC power supply - would love to see one with the cover off.  For example which transformer they are using - power filter caps - any additional PS regulation besides the ADI LDO's on the F-1 board. 
  
 Got to get me one to try - but with shipping $350!  Still half the price of the Tanly...
  
 And this...


> 3, the power input is 220V AC, internal use RS importing adapter for power.


 
 Does have it have switchable voltage like the U12 to 110V or 120V?
  
 The advantage of the F-1 is you can feed it a very high quality linear power supply by simply using a split USB cable like the Lightspeed 2G and a linear power supply like the TeraDak X-1 or DC-30W, Paul Hynes (the ultimate!), Tedy Pardo, upcoming Uptone LPS, etc...
  
 Still curious about how they do the:


> 1, full isolation technology (ground isolation), the use of 150Mbps full-chip isolation, interference can be completely isolated from the PC;


 
  
 That is the first I have seen of that technology built into a DDC - maybe the Berkerly Apha USB...


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## abartels

Manufacturer links:
 http://www.singxer.com/pd.jsp?id=19
  
 XMOS Evaluation board:
 http://www.singxer.com/nd.jsp?id=27
  
 F1:
 http://www.singxer.com/pd.jsp?id=72
  
  
 Taobao:
 F1:
 https://world.taobao.com/item/527371251516.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.rlNzjI#detail
  
 SU-1:
 https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.YPsJIb#detail
  
 XMOS in general:
 https://world.taobao.com/search/search.htm?_ksTS=1459325024886_20&spm=a21bp.7806943.20151106.1&search_type=0&_input_charset=utf-8&navigator=all&json=on&q=USB%E6%95%B0%E5%AD%97%E7%95%8C%E9%9D%A2&cna=%2FlEKD%2FQGDxkCAVQaJtIQz78a&callback=__jsonp_cb&abtest=_AB-LR517-LR854-LR895-PR517-PR854-PV895_2461


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## hugoboss

Does anyone know if the su-1 aKA SINGXER HDMI I2S SUPPORT Audio GD master 7 hdmi i2s input without any modification
 thanks very much


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## abartels

hugoboss said:


> Does anyone know if the su-1 aKA SINGXER HDMI I2S SUPPORT Audio GD master 7 hdmi i2s input without any modification
> thanks very much


 
 How could we know if there even is NO info available right now? If they have some sort of connection scheme to share with us,
 yes, then we could tell you if it's compatible with M7.
  
 Maybe you could opt asking Kingwa to contact Singxer and confirm it is compatible.
  
*广州声仕电子有限公司*
·地址：广州市番禺区新造镇北约村新北工业园F区
·电话：156-2212-8276
·联系人：陈先生
·邮箱：leter@singxer.com


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## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> Does anyone know if the su-1 aKA SINGXER HDMI I2S SUPPORT Audio GD master 7 hdmi i2s input without any modification
> thanks very much


 

 Does the Audio GD Master use the Amanero i2s pinout?  This was up on the original F-1 ad I bought from - should be the same for the SU-1 as they are both made by Singxer "*I2S pin position is fully compatible with  Italy Amanero module"*
  
*Very excited - my boards should be here next week.  The EMS package went out a week ago.*
  
*Checked on Computer Audiophile's threads - nothing on either of these new devices - in fact nothing on the XU208 (unless I'm missing some thing).*
  
*Breaking new ground!*
  
*The F-1 and SU-1 150Mbps USB isolation looks very interesting - the Tanly and the Hydra Z use something similar I believe  - both twice the price.*
  
*I'll order an SU-1 today to compare.*


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## rb2013

Edit


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## rb2013

More on the SU-1:


> *Product Description:*
> 
> *SU-1 *digital interface of our team to develop a high-performance USB digital audio interface, using the XMOS latest xCORE-200 series chips. SU-1 is a self-developed ultra- low jitter clock system ( Crystek of CCHD-957 series ), with astandard USB2.0  input interface, rich output interfaces, including XLR balanced output AES, coaxial RCA and BNC, use HDMI socket output I2S interface output word clock WCLK.
> 
> ...


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## rb2013

abartels said:


> How could we know if there even is NO info available right now? If they have some sort of connection scheme to share with us,
> yes, then we could tell you if it's compatible with M7.
> 
> Maybe you could opt asking Kingwa to contact Singxer and confirm it is compatible.
> ...


 
 I found this on the Taobao SU-1 page:


> ```
> [color=rgb(33,33,33)][left] I2S interface with HDMI output socket : 1. The level of 3.3V for the LVDS differential signals ; 2. The output signal is muted , DSD ON signal , 5V power supply ( low current ) ; 3. The output signal mute , DSD ON signal can be modified according to customer needs , internal CPLD can define different output pins ; the two signals can be output to any socket PIN13,14,15,16 pins. [/left][/color]
> ```


 

 https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?pid=mm_1100641_2323434_884563&spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.YPsJIb&unid=7912d9f371dbafe91fd233e77ae872b4#detail
  
 Posted from Alex's thread:


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## hugoboss

i will try to sent kingwa this picture
 but which one is the hdmi i2s diagram , you post two diagram
 the first one or the below


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## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> i will try to sent kingwa this picture
> but which one is the hdmi i2s diagram , you post two diagram
> the first one or the below


 

 The first one is directly from the SU-1 Taobao ad (as is the verbiage quote) - the second was one that someone knowledgeable posted on another thread.  So I would send the verbiage and first chart.
  
 Keep us posted as to what you find out.
  
 Cheers!


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## hugoboss

thanks, i am sure this will be the next big thing of usb evolution hahahah
 maybe soon gustard and melodius will release a new device based on this x-core 1000 mips.
 then we will be very happy all!


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## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> thanks, i am sure this will be the next big thing of usb evolution hahahah
> maybe soon gustard and melodius will release a new device based on this x-core 1000 mips.
> then we will be very happy all!


 

 Well only the listening will tell - I trust my ears more then technology specs or test bench measures. 
  
 That said - remember in addition to the higher processing power of the XU208 it has other new features as compared to the U8.  Also the SU-1 and F-1 have vastly better audio clocks then the Gustard or Melodious or Breeze.
  
 The Crystek CCHD-575 clocks have orders of maginitude lower phase noise then the generic TXCO JYEC OEM clocks:
  
 For example at 1kHz:
  
 OEM TXCO -120dB
 CCHD-575  -150dB
  
 Each -6dB is roughly a halving in noise!  -30dB is .00005% as much.
  
 On top of that the F-1 and SU-1 have dual ultra low noise regulation - with the ADI LDOs (the Breeze has an excellent dual stage regulation).
 AND this CPLD Xilinx USB full ground isolation - some thing unique.
  
 All this make these quite exciting...


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## rb2013

Well look what arrived today!
  

  
 So far the sound is stunning!  Cold out of the box better then the PUC2 Lite (my previous #1) - at least for the F-1.  The X-1 is excellent as well - just a notch less detail, but warm with a rich natural tone - but at least as good as the DXIO Pro3a.  They both need 100hrs run time for the clocks and caps to settle in.  Listening right now man these are good...
  
 I'm making a case for them tonight.
  
 More to report soon!
  
 Cheers!


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## Maxx134

So it looks like the SU-1 is only 220v?


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## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> So it looks like the SU-1 is only 220v?




If someone speaks Chinese maybe they could ask.

I thought of getting one, but I'm good with SPDIF, so would rather put the money into better linear power supplies and gizmos.

Tonight I ordered another X-1, F-1, and a Q1-S. I plan on replacing the spdif rca with a WBT Nexgen Au, that helped the Breeze.

These things are just killer great! I sitting here just blown away at the SQ. I mean cavernous sound stage depth, amazing clarity and focus. Another 1/2 octave of bass depth, excellent definition. Tone naturally rich. The little bells on Ricky Lee Jones 'Gravity' just hanging in space, so realistic.

Man oh man - pay dirt!


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## hugoboss

i have asked kingwa about this su-1
 kingwa said this device is not compactible with the hdmi i2s input from master 7 or nos 7
 he asked me to ask the seller if he  can change the CPLD to working with the Master 7 or NOS7.
 i also sent email to su-1 seller but not yet get any reply
  
  
 @rb 2013
 plz take some photo of your finished f-1, i want to see your finished product with any mod you use
  
 so is the f1 the best ddc you have heard now?
  
 how you connecting the f-1
 is is just from pc usb out to f-1 then coax out to your dac?
  
 also which driver you used for the f1


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## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> If someone speaks Chinese maybe they could ask.
> 
> I thought of getting one, but I'm good with SPDIF, so would rather put the money into better linear power supplies and gizmos.
> 
> ...


 
  
 comparing X-1 to DXIA, both out of the box, which one more transparent and neutral ? by a discerning  difference or minor ? 
  
 what do you think of using intona instead of this ?


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## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> i have asked kingwa about this su-1
> kingwa said this device is not compactible with the hdmi i2s input from master 7 or nos 7
> he asked me to ask the seller if he  can change the CPLD to working with the Master 7 or NOS7.
> i also sent email to su-1 seller but not yet get any reply
> ...


Thanks for the update, I think a cable can be made to work.

Yes by a long shot the best yet. PUC2 going up for sale tomorrow. My DXIO I'll sell as well, it's acting a little weird lately, I think that power switch is going bad.
I
I used the case from a defunct Melodious MXU8, worked great, I'll post tomorrow.

The F-1 is Coax RCA out to my APL DAC. Audio Sensibility Statement 1.5M digital cable.

The driver supplied works for both the F-1 and X-1, so swapping is super easy. It's labeled Singxer USB 3.20.

The JB modded VBUS blocker would not work, so I removed. Using an unmodded JB on an open port. Otherwise, exact same setup as the PUC2 lite.


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## rb2013

ccschua said:


> comparing X-1 to DXIA, both out of the box, which one more transparent and neutral ? by a discerning  difference or minor ?
> 
> what do you think of using intona instead of this ?


 The X-1 is just a tad less detailed, but I would need more time to listen. Now I've been running the F-1 all night, going through my favorite tracks - crushes the DXIA Pro3a, I mean the difference is not minor. I would rate the F-1 145-150 on my ratings, and it should get better. The biggest SQ improvements Bass!!!! Sound staging!!! More detail then the Pro3a, and that says a lot, greater clarity and incredible transparency. 

Once I sell my PUC2 llite, will get a Wryed for Sound Recovery. Intona not on my list right now. But I hear Uptone has a Regen with galvanic isolation in the works...that would be interesting.

The iFi iPurifer2 is sounding excellent between the Regen and F-1, contrary to Uptone's recommendation.

We live in exciting audio times!


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## ccschua

the seller claims this is totally isolated. looking at the way the board divides into half, it seems true. quite similar to the Tanly and berkely that uses split board.


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## rb2013

ccschua said:


> the seller claims this is totally isolated. looking at the way the board divides into half, it seems true. quite similar to the Tanly and berkely that uses split board.


 

 Yes - I was thinking the same - does the Xilinx chip do this  - like the Spartan on the Tanly.  One a CPLD and the other a FPGA.
  
 Here are some close ups of the F-1.
  
 Already thinking of some mods - like replacing those 35V 100uF caps with Os-cons.  Definitely replacing the SPDIF coax RCA with a WBT NexGen Au wired with Mundorf solid silver/Teflon.
  
 Trying to idenifiy the ADI LDO's:
  





  
 Edit:  Looks like they use a NDK SD for USB clocking - of course Crystek CCHD-575 for audio.


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## rb2013

Berkerly Alpha USB:
  



  
 Tanly (old version):


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## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> maxx134 said:
> 
> 
> > So it looks like the SU-1 is only 220v?
> ...




I have been using the Pro3a *without* an external supply, 
As I am waiting for my ipower.

This Pro3a, without even an external PSU,
 is already superior to the Yggy USB Gen3 ..!!
A bit more soundstage air, depth and instrument separation..
A more effortless presentation with the unit only having 15hrs burn in at most.

The Pro3a is completely sold out now, as it seems it is gaining popularity.

But now what you say about the F-1..!


So I ordered the F-1 and would like to ask,
Do you see on the board a location for an external power input, 
like the Pro3a has?..
Edit:
I will have a Regen feeding it from the computer.


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## rb2013

Here is my quick and dirty mounting for the F-1.  I had a case left over from a defunct Melodious MX-U8.  I'll likely mount the X-1 next to it.  The F-1 sits on those little brass risers screwed to the bottom of the aluminum case.  Just drilled out new holes aligned to the F-1's:
  

  
 Note the very good power chain feeding the F-1.  The power supply will be critical to top sound quality.  The DC-30W TeraDak not shown - this is a work horse linear power supply with an R-core transformer, adjustable output voltage. Definitely not the lowest noise LPS out there - but heck for $150 what do you expect!  The iFi DC iPurifier is a big help in filtering down the noise - as is the ultra low noise regulators on the Regen - then of course more filtering by the iPur2...
  
 So here is the data chain and power chain from the wall:
  
For the USB data stream:
PC>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data leg only)>Regen>Regen hard adapter>iPurifer2>DDC
 
Power feed to the Regen's external power port:
Wall Socket (Teslaplex)>Audience aR1p (AC line conditioner/rebalancer)>Art Audio PB4X4 Pro(common and differential mode AC line filtering and isolation)>Cerious Tech Graphene power cable>TeraDak DC-30W R-Core LPS>DC iPurifier>Regen power input (2.5mm cable).
 
Two things I would like to try:
1)Curious Regen 6" USB cable in place of the Regen hard adapter
2)W4S Recovery in place of the Regen - but this may not work as I understand the Recovery requires a USB power handshake - even when powered by it's own 9VDC ext power port.  I could connect the power leg of the 2G to an external power source for the handshake - but that kind defeats the 'purity' of the clean USB powerless cable (possible power interference at the USB head connector).


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> I have been using the Pro3a *without* an external supply,
> As I am waiting for my ipower.
> 
> This Pro3a, without even an external PSU,
> ...


 
 "This Pro3a, without even an external PSU,
 is already superior to the Yggy USB Gen3 ..!!"
  
 Wow!  That says a lot.  On my Gustard U12 thread much was written about the benefits of using an external DDC versus internal board.  Has to do with 'Packet Noise' created by the USB receiver's AGC modulating to varying signal integrity, and the error control mechanisms in the USB PHY.  This can feed back through even the most well crafted power schemes in the DAC to cause issues with the DAC's clocks.  All these femto clocks are hyper sensitive to power noise. 
  
 Wait until you try the Pro3a with a decent external power source!  The F-1 well fed - is out of this world.
  
 PS Edit:  No need for an external power input - as the Regen cleans the power and it's fed externally.  I suggest a decent power source for the Regen.
 I have a iFi iUSB2.0 (with the iPur2) and need to give it a try with the F-1 X-1.  Using the TeraDak/DCiPur to feed it - without the Regen.  I will once the burnin is complete.

 Cheers!


----------



## motberg

FWIW and perhaps another data point, I am using an "old" Tanly - and adding the Intona to the Tanly was a bigger upgrade in SQ than, for instance, from the MX-U8 to the Tanly....
 Actually adding the Intona was at least equal to the improvement that I noticed between any of the 6 or so DDC upgrades I have made - it trumped a few DAC "upgrades" also...
 Adding a battery powered Regen or Recovery after the Intona is just the icing on the cake so to speak... but this stuff is very system dependent and I am using i2S rather than SPDIF/AES...
 So, I am especially looking forward to reports on these new bridges i2S performance...
 thanks to rb2013 for taking the lead...(and.... sorry... off topic but 1975 Reflektor E88CC's are brilliant!!!!)


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> FWIW and perhaps another data point, I am using an "old" Tanly - and adding the Intona to the Tanly was a bigger upgrade in SQ than, for instance, from the MX-U8 to the Tanly....
> Actually adding the Intona was at least equal to the improvement that I noticed between any of the 6 or so DDC upgrades I have made - it trumped a few DAC "upgrades" also...
> Adding a battery powered Regen or Recovery after the Intona is just the icing on the cake so to speak... but this stuff is very system dependent and I am using i2S rather than SPDIF/AES...
> So, I am especially looking forward to reports on these new bridges i2S performance...
> thanks to rb2013 for taking the lead...(and.... sorry... off topic but 1975 Reflektor E88CC's are brilliant!!!!)


 

 Glad you love the '75 HG's!
  
 Well I'm using a Paul Pang V2 USB card in my WIN 10 machine - fed by an iFi iPower. That was a small but noticeable improvement before the addition of the iPurifer2 and the DC iPurifier.  After really small.  Some folks with the PPA 3 card have noted a small improvement with the Intona - but a much bigger one with their laptops.  So I guess the improvement from the Intona is very system dependent.
  
 My set-up is vastly different then most folks - first I had been using a Jitterbug modded into a +5 VDC VBUS blocker out of the PPA - with the ground pin cut as well.
 Using only the data leg of a Lightspeed 2G cable.  Tried the Curious USB (not a split cable) and for my system the 2G was way better.  Now I know all kinds of folks are raving about the Curious loom - so you know YMMV!
  
 On the Intona.  Now again my system is much different then most. My APL DAC for example is a $6500 custom design using six AKM 32-bit DACs per channel -  Lundahl transformer coupling - class A ECC99 tube output stage - femto clock board, custom discrete SPDIF reciever, WBT Nexgen gold connectors, etc...  Not the typical $600-$800 Gumby, Gustard or AudioGd.  The latest version of this APL DAC goes for well over $10K. 
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html
  
 The things I don't like about the intona: Need USB power from the PC.  Hopefully the next version will have ext power capabilities - or the Uptone version combined with the Regen technology.  Another high end cable needed in the chain.  The Intona reclocks (in fact recreates) the data stream with very low end STItime clocks, I wouldn't mind paying a little more and getting better clocks.  I'm sure that will come from them or another company like Uptone on the next generation.  But some time I will get something like this...
  
 Like the Regen - it has been really variable in the performance changes. Did not like it with the Pro3a - but worked great with the Breeze and the F-1 - why?  Who knows.  Will give a W4S Recovery a try to see.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> Glad you love the '75 HG's!
> 
> Well I'm using a Paul Pang V2 USB card in my WIN 10 machine - fed by an iFi iPower. That was a small but noticeable improvement before the addition of the iPurifer2 and the DC iPurifier.  After really small.  Some folks with the PPA 3 card have noted a small improvement with the Intona - but a much bigger one with their laptops.  So I guess the improvement from the Intona is very system dependent.
> 
> ...


 

 bought a set of 74's as a backup!
  
 Yep - some of this USB stuff does not make much sense, I think I have an OK front end:
 Server: Gigabyte GA-Z87M-D3H, I5-4670t, NOFAN CR-95c, 2x4 GB Corsair, TeraDak 210 ATX LPS,  , 32GB OS SSD (PPA batterypack ), 256GB +500GB SSD's w/LPS for primary music (all WAV files), SSD's use PPA red thin SATA cables and suspension blocks, PPA V2 USB card (PPA battery pack). Software: WIN2012 core/AO, JPlay6, Mini, Total Commander:
 Source: PPA V2 USB card (battery)  > 1.7M PPA dual USB cable > Intona standard USB isolator > Pagena AG 0.5M USB cable > W4S Recovery (battery)> PPA 17CM red USB cable > Tanly DDC HDMI (Wireworld Starlight 5.2, 1M) i2S > Audio-GD Master 7 DAC.
  
 So you can see it is LPS and batteries and the audio sources (not the PC) are fed by a 220V mains power regenerator. (I do not think an APL DAC is in my future - I first need some serious speakers upgrade.. and then there's the grandkids 
  
 The Intona was a good improvement even with the pretty stable PC (perhaps the mains power here is really bad..), but to be honest - - nothing like adding 75 Reflektors 
  
 Agree on the Curious - I sent my Curious link back also... prefer the PPA stuff... and the one Pagena in the loom does not seem to hurt anything. The Curious guy is great to work with though, and with his return policy everyone should try his stuff if they have the inkling..
  
 For the Intona, it is pretty easy to upgrade the power.. mine is getting fed by a PPA 5V battery pack through the PPA 2 card (I noticed the change powering this from LPS to battery)...agreed on the so-so clocking (at least in principal, I do not know such stuff) but that can be pretty easily remedied by the Regen/Recovery and battery... in fact I personally would lean against an all-in-one solution unless it was totally killer - I can easily see folks preferring the Regen over the Recovery and visa-versa. I found the Regen very dynamic, but when I changed my listening position to near-field it was a bit much, so the Recovery is now the better fit. The trouble is the added expense, it is really crazy money for these small incremental improvements - good thing many of the companies offer a grace period...   
  
 It is great for us consumers these companies like iFi, W4S, Uptone, etc. are constantly raising the bar.. and they got the China suppliers pushing also... must be a crazy business to be in these days... it will be interesting to see the next couple years new products developments.
 I think the general value of quality audio is quite good compared to years ago.. with a well tuned laptop and some thought given to the other stuff you can put together a system that would have taken mega-bucks back then....
  
 Saludos!


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> bought a set of 74's as a backup!
> 
> Yep - some of this USB stuff does not make much sense, I think I have an OK front end:
> Server: Gigabyte GA-Z87M-D3H, I5-4670t, NOFAN CR-95c, 2x4 GB Corsair, TeraDak 210 ATX LPS,  , 32GB OS SSD (PPA batterypack ), 256GB +500GB SSD's w/LPS for primary music (all WAV files), SSD's use PPA red thin SATA cables and suspension blocks, PPA V2 USB card (PPA battery pack). Software: WIN2012 core/AO, JPlay6, Mini, Total Commander:
> ...


 

 Really nice PC set-up!  I just bought a 'new' Haswell iCore7 4790 12GB DDR3 - still running WD Black discs.  WIN10 on this machine - which I do like.  Heck $450 for the package - (not including the Fanless low noise PS I installed - or the El Fidelity SATA and fan filters).  These Haswell processors run very cool - no case fan needed, only a very quiet CPU fan.  Have it on a dedicated PB4X4 Pro AC line filter.  The 14nm Broadwell's are even more efficient.
  
 I hear the PPA3 OXCO card is a nice step-up - some point down the road - need lot's of juice.
  
 Yes it is crazy all these USB gadgets - but the results are astounding.  Really rivaling my old analog step-up ($30K).
  
 Just put the X-1 in the office system - replacing my slightly modded Breeze there.  Very, Very nice!  These new XU208 have a depth to the imaging that is immediately noticeable.  Very pleasant rich tone as well. 
  
 Here is my down and dirty mounting - using an old D-Link WiFi.  Will search around for a nicer case for this:


 Also found this for the X-1


  
  
 The '75 HGs are really special - wish I could find more of them.


----------



## hugoboss

you made me more itchy to order this f-1 hahahaha, i also use elfidelity sata filter and pci express filter, plus elfidelity usb card
 i will order this shortly to compare the amanero usb quality from my upcoming audio gd nos 7
  
 seems like i gonna use the coax from f-1 to  audio gd to compare with it's own usb amanero.
  
 i already have ifi micro iusb 3.
 i also have jays audio china linear usb psu 5 volt but not gonna use this after i have ifi usb 3
  
 will gonna do like this
  
 elfidelity usb card -> ifi usb 3 ->dual head usb cable separate power (the usb power go to linear psu, or just use the ifi iusb 3 power ) -> f-1 -> nos 7 coax input
 vs
 elfidelity usb card->ifi usb 3 data only -> nos 7 usb (audio gd amanero dont need power from usb)
  
 i will post my result as soon i receive both f1 and nos 7
  
 thanks for your picture setup and how do u think about cchd-957 vs cchd-575 . which one is better


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> you made me more itchy to order this f-1 hahahaha, i also use elfidelity sata filter and pci express filter, plus elfidelity usb card
> i will order this shortly to compare the amanero usb quality from my upcoming audio gd nos 7
> 
> seems like i gonna use the coax from f-1 to  audio gd to compare with it's own usb amanero.
> ...


 

 That sounds good - what power supply on the iUSB3.0 - the new 10uv iPower?  Or a LPS 9VDC?  Not sure what they include as std.
  
 The 575 has slightly better phase noise numbers then the 975:
  
 From Crystek:
 So for the same clock freq 22.5792 (575 then 975):
  
 10 Hz  -100dB   -97dB
 100Hz -130dB   -126dB
 1KHz   -151dB   -149dB
 10kHz  -163dB   -162dB
 100kHz -165dB   -169dB
  
  
 So in the freq below 20kHz approx the 575 is better.


----------



## rb2013

One of the cool things about the new XMOS 200 series processors is they are easily firmware updateable.
  
 In the enclosed Singxer docs (in Chinese of course) there appears to the latest firmware being V1.30  and how to update, but I can't find the .bin file for the V1.30
  
 Reading the firmware version of the X-1 - it shows V1.10 and the F-1 shows V1.20.  The updating process is very easy - but will have to find out where to get that file.  The file iscalled DFU_v130.bin


----------



## hugoboss

all micro iUSB3.0 now comes with the iPower which has an astonishingly low audio band noise floor of just 1uV!
 but still i saw somebody said in headfi the good external linear psu better then ipower


----------



## Luckit

@ rb2013: FYI firmware updating on XMOS processors was enabled wayyyyy back and not come with this latest chip release! I used it for my WaveIOs starting back in 2012 when I've update its stock firmware (24/192) to 32/384 capabilities and I'm using it right now. In fact, that chip (XS1-L1A-TQ128) was the oldest possible chip I know made by XMOS. The update is made through USB DFU functionality (DFU = Device Firmware Update). I don't know if it's permitted to share some external links but look for WaveIO's thread on Diyaudio where there are plenty of questions regarding how to upload a new firmware over a stock one. Anyway, here's a link for such a procedure starting back in 2014 - look at the date in upper left side of my post (it can be deleted by moderators if this is their will). This "supports firmware upgrade interface​" text is put there only for marketing purposes so that unaware buyers will believe it's a whole new thing and was never made before. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
   I also really hope this board does NOT come with hacked Luckit drivers like a multitude of other chinese/SK/HK ones found on Aliexpress, Taobao, eBay, etc does!
   All infos above are shared only to warn you to not blindly believe what others are saying...
   I hope it helps,
   L


----------



## MINORISUKE

About Windows driver:
 I am curious if the current driver for U8 can be used for XU208 as well.


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> .
> 
> Like the Regen - it has been really variable in the performance changes. Did not like it with the Pro3a - but worked great with the Breeze and the F-1 - why?  Who knows.  Will give a W4S Recovery a try to see.
> 
> Cheers!





That is good news as I plan to use the Regen into the F-1.

Can I ask what are the general dimensions of the F-1 ?
I am looking for a nice metal case for it.


----------



## rb2013

luckit said:


> @ rb2013: FYI firmware updating on XMOS processors was enabled wayyyyy back and not come with this latest chip release! I used it for my WaveIOs starting back in 2012 when I've update its stock firmware (24/192) to 32/384 capabilities and I'm using it right now. In fact, that chip (XS1-L1A-TQ128) was the oldest possible chip I know made by XMOS. The update is made through USB DFU functionality (DFU = Device Firmware Update). I don't know if it's permitted to share some external links but look for WaveIO's thread on Diyaudio where there are plenty of questions regarding how to upload a new firmware over a stock one. Anyway, here's a link for such a procedure starting back in 2014 - look at the date in upper left side of my post (it can be deleted by moderators if this is their will). This "supports firmware upgrade interface​" text is put there only for marketing purposes so that unaware buyers will believe it's a whole new thing and was never made before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi -Thanks for the clarification.  After owning a handful of XMOS U-8 based boards from Gustard, Melodious, Breeze, DIYinHK, etc...I have never seen this capability mentioned.  So I took their word for it that is was a new feature or at least the firmware updating was easier (software based).
  
 It does say on the XMOS website on the new Xcore 200 series: http://www.xmos.com/products/silicon/xcore-200


> Three device families provide a range of price points and functionality to suit any application: the unique benefits of flexibility and determinism offered by the xCORE architecture are extended with the provision of increased memory footprint, optional integrated Flash, Gigabit Ethernet and USB 2.0 PHY.So it was the reference to the 'optional integrated Flash' is what lead me to believe this was a new feature.


 
  
 On the XMOS website in reference to the USB specific chip the XU200/XUF200 Series they say: http://www.xmos.com/products/silicon/xcore-200/xu-series


> xCORE-200 XU/XUF integrates up to two USB 2.0 PHYs (host or device) and implements a dual-issue processor pipeline to boost peak compute performance to 4000MIPS and 2000MMACS. Up to 1024KB on-chip SRAM memory is available. Each member of the xCORE-200 family has an embedded flash option for applications where additional security is required.


 


> Embedded QuadSPI flash options - up to 2048KB on-board.​


 
 The XMOS driver was labeled 'Singxer USB Audio'.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> About Windows driver:
> I am curious if the current driver for U8 can be used for XU208 as well.


 
 That is a good question.  The ones provided seem very stable - both the F-1 and X-1 were running all night with out a freeze or unlock.  They may not be the latest drivers but installed without a hiccup on both my WIN10 and WIN7 machines.
  


maxx134 said:


> That is good news as I plan to use the Regen into the F-1.
> 
> Can I ask what are the general dimensions of the F-1 ?
> I am looking for a nice metal case for it.


 
 I will measure and get them to you.  Part me starting this thread was to my hoping someone would find a simple drop in case for them.
  
 I do have this for the X-1


----------



## rb2013

Ok Update on the Sound Quality - first these are very stable devices/drivers.  Both machines ran all night without incident - no lock ups, unlocks, or crashes.  WIN10 on one machine WIN7 the other - both using Foobar2000 v1.2.9/SoX upsampler to 192K.
  
 Long listening session last night (5 hours).
  
 Sounding excellent - more detail then I ever have heard before - just cavernous bass and sound staging.  At the end of one my albums Incubus 'Morning View' the playlist hopped to the next album - one I wasn't intending to listen to Interpol 'Antics'.
  
 But I though ok give it a try - this album is not the best recording job.  It's bright, with pitchy guitars, nasally vocals, can come off edgie.  On top of that recorded with a echoy effect - almost like a cheapo reverb plugin.  Some Emo bands go for this 'anti-Hifi' effect - kinda like the early Beatles 'Wall of Sound' crap.  Well sure enough - the ultimate detail of the F-1 - showed this in spades.  Not that is was unlistenable - but at a few moments it was not smooth.  At that point my audio OCD kicked in.

 Was it the typical retrograde some electronics (and tubes) make during the burnin process?

 Reading the Regen vs Recovery debate over on CA - was it the Regen?  I had a similar thing happen on the Pro3a - the Regen just made it to bright and edgie.  Humm...
  
 Switched to another album Florence and the Machine's 'Ceremonials' - rich, luscious tone, smooth as can be, new details emerging that I had not heard before.  Just grander and big then ever - Wonderful!  So it's the 'Antics'
  
 But still...I want every album no matter how badly recorded or engineered to sound like Hi Res...
  
 Then I remembered the Regen vs Recovery discussion thread and the comment about using Jitterbugs to 'tame' the Regen.  I had taken them out of the PC during the initial F-1 driver install.  OK first I put the unmodded JB between the USB 2G cable (data only) and the PPA V2 USB port.  Now a listen to that 'Antics' 'Next Exit' track...better..but still edgie.
  
 Ok what next?  Then I thought - 'Why not give my modded JB a try'?  What the heck.  I had used it with the PUC2, Pro3a, Breeze to good effect.  But for some reason the unmounted F-1 could not be seen with this modded JB between the PPA and the USB 2G cable.  I modded a stock JB to also be a VBUS +5VDC blocker and also severed the ground connection (by clipping the 1 and 4 pins on the outbound USB socket).
  
 Well to my surprise (a neat feature on the iPurifier2 is a little green LED on top lights when a USB connection is good) - got the Green light on the iPur2 - and the F-1 worked!!!
  
 But best of all the 'Antics' sounded amazing - smooth! Listened to the whole album.  In fact the detail and holographic nature of the sound field increased!  So did the focus!  Bass improved!.  Wow!
  
 When back to 'Ceremonials' fearing it was going to be too dark - no!  More detail and just creamy smooth delicious!
  
 Bottom-line:  The F-1 is going to require a bit of tweeking to get it to sound it's best, certainly a decent power chain, maybe the Intona?
  
 I sold my PUC2 lite last night  - so have the funds for a W4S Recovery -  next gizmo to try with the F-1.  Should be here by the time the F-1 is done burning in. 
  
 Next up for sale my modded Breeze Audio
  
 Cheers!
  
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/wyred-4-sounds-recovery-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-reclocker-findings-audio-performance-curated-thread-27140/


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> all micro iUSB3.0 now comes with the iPower which has an astonishingly low audio band noise floor of just 1uV!
> but still i saw somebody said in headfi the good external linear psu better then ipower


 

 The 'new' 1uv iPowers are very good - I have a 9VDC running on my W4S Remedy and a 5VDC on the PPA V2.  For $49 a steal of a deal.
  
 On the Remedy the TeraDak DC-30W LPS is better - but not by a huge amount.  And it's $150. 
  
 Of course you could get a $900 LPS like JS-2...bet that would sound awesome...but that's a lot of money.
  
 Happy medium - and one I have had good success with is adding a iFi DC iPurifier to the TeraDak. Total package around $240.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> About Windows driver:
> I am curious if the current driver for U8 can be used for XU208 as well.


 

 Yes!  Just loaded the Breeze 3.29 drivers and they work.  I don't hear much difference from the Singxer 3.20 - will play with it tonight


----------



## rb2013

My DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a finally died on me.  But the excellent folks at DIYinHK have agreed to replace it - with the new design! 
  
 So it looks like a Pro4a is coming very soon.


----------



## hugoboss

rb2013 said:


> My DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a finally died on me.  But the excellent folks at DIYinHK have agreed to replace it - with the new design!
> 
> So it looks like a Pro4a is coming very soon.


 

 is the new pro4a use the new xmos 200 chipset or just same like pro3a
 it will be more interesting if more player in the new xmos 200


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> is the new pro4a use the new xmos 200 chipset or just same like pro3a
> it will be more interesting if more player in the new xmos 200


 

 I believe it'll have the new XMOS 208 - NDk clocks and their own ultra low noise regulators.  I'll be sending my defunct back next week and they will send the replacement when available - so I'll likely have one of the first units.
  
  
 But it's going up against very tough competition - see my review remarks on the  F-1 below...


----------



## rb2013

*REVIEW UPDATE:*
  
 Ok the F-1 was at the 40hr burnin mark for last night's 5 hr listening session. 
  
 One comment says it all - The SQ was the best I have ever heard from audio (in 30yrs).  Yes!  Better than any CD player (I've had many of the best), better then any CD transport, in fact better then any analog system I have had. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This F-1 is in a class of it's own.  I mean not even close. 
  
 Each day as the burnin proceeds it's getting better and better - with still at least another 150 or more hours to go.
  
 I don't know if it's this new class of XMOS 200 processors - or the unique design of the F-1 - but it's so superior to any DDC I've heard before, it stuns me.
  
 In all my audio days (30 yrs worth) this has got to be one of the biggest game changers - period.
  
 The Bass is thunderous - but with perfect pitch and definition.  The sound stage cavernous - listening to a Kings of Leon 'Closer' for example - the bass lines kick off, the best bass definition I have heard yet on my Maggie 1.6QRs. But it's the drums strikes that floored me!!! Dynamically realistic - they were projecting 6 ft behind the Maggies - that is 3 ft beyond the back wall!  Never heard anything like this.
  
 Someone should buy all these $150 boards - put one in a fancy case and a decent power supply and charge $1800 for it.
  
 Thinking of having a nice aluminum case designed for it  - buy the boards - mount them and sell them for $300.  But then there is the SU-1 coming for $300!  Case and all.
  
 Now the SU-1 will not be available until May - and it may not sound as good with it's internal AC power supply.  All I know it the little $150 board I have playing right now is simply audio magic.
  
 BTW No unlocks again playing over night - besides the super stable Breeze - this is the most stable DDC I have had yet.  The Melodious was the worst.
  
 Cheers!




  
 The W4S Recovery is in the mail to me.
  
  

 PS Just re-reading this - not to give the impression the sound is recessed.  The vocals were right up front center, the drums 4-5ft behind the singer - just like the band was in my room!  On another recording I swear someone was speaking behind me!  Thought maybe the wifey.  No it was the sound wrapping around me and projecting to the left of me a few feet behind me.
  
 Another aspect of the sound staging - before the sound stage would extend from wall to wall - approx 15ft - great effect.  But now the sound extends into the back corners of that dimension.  Another incredible effect.


----------



## rb2013

Looking at simple boxes I found this one at Digikey - they're $5
  
 The F-1 is approx 91mm x 47mm x 20mm
  
 http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=193608386&uq=635951906031743953


----------



## Caper

Where did you buy the F1?
 I am waiting for the Pro4A but maybe I could try the F1 instead.
 Currently using a "baby" Breeze.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Where did you buy the F1?
> I am waiting for the Pro4A but maybe I could try the F1 instead.
> Currently using a "baby" Breeze.


 
 https://world.taobao.com/item/527371251516.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.rz7ne7#detail
  
 I use this shopping service - their communication and service is excellent.  And they understand English.  But they do charge 10%.
  
 http://freeshoppingchina.com
  
 Funny name - as there is nothing free about it - but they are good.
  
 PS You'll want to scan back at my recent posts on the power/data chain - care should be made in having a high quality linear power supply and probably something like the Regen or W4S Recovery (which accepts an external power feed).  I need to do more experimentation on power without the Regen in the chain.  That will start after the 200 hr burnin.
  
 Once the second board arrives I will be doing some light modding - upgrade the poly's to OS-Con's and replace the CRC RCA to a WBT NexGen.


----------



## Caper

Thanks!
  
 Tried to order the F1 through freeshoppingchina but when trying to pay with VISA it failed.
 Too bad they dont have Paypal since it normally works ok.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Tried to order the F1 through freeshoppingchina but when trying to pay with VISA it failed.
> Too bad they dont have Paypal since it normally works ok.


 

 Yes - try it agian - that happened to me recently.  Be sure you billing and shipping addresses match perfectly.  If not then contact your credit card company to allow authorization.
  
 When my Mastercard went through on my last purchase - I received 2 phone call, and 4 text messages from them about possible fraud.  I had to immediately call them to let them know it was not fraud.  Unfortunately so much credit card fraud these days the CC companies are ultra paranoid.


----------



## Caper

I logged in to my bank where I can open up my card for all Internetshops for 60 minutes.
 Still failed but will try again.
  
 Edit: This time payment went fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just wait and see if it arrives and how it sounds.
 About case, I was thinking of making a simple wooden case and then spray it with plasti dip.
 Should be good enough.


----------



## rb2013

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/nichicon/PLX1V101MDL1TD/493-4686-1-ND/2790812

 Thinking about these very nice 35V 100uf Nichicon Poly PL caps as mod upgrades.  They are not cheap at $4.82 each and the F-1 takes 5.
  
 But I'm sure they are way superior to the stock ones. 
  

ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance)​28 mOhm
 
Ripple Current​1.04A
 
Lifetime @ Temp.​3000 Hrs @ 125°C


----------



## rb2013

For the SPDIF RCA I'll try one each of these (I have left over from another project)
  
 http://www.wbt.de/english/products/a/Detailansicht/Artikel/nextgenTM-cinchbuchse-topline-1.html
  
 nextgen™ RCA socket 
 WBT-0210 Cu 
 


_with signal conductor made of pure copper,
 for chassis mounting_

*Profile in brief: WBT-0210 Cu*: 
75 ohms (typ.) characteristic impedance
Totally distortion-free (no eddy currents)
Ultimate conductivity (signal conductor made of pure copper)
Inner contact designed as tulip contact with spring ring
Outer contact in the form of a pat. double wave contact
 




              Product description:  
 http://www.vhaudio.com/phonopod.html
  
Eichmann Phono Pod​  






The new Eichmann PhonoPod HC-XTC RCA female chassis socket is a low mass design with low inductive reactance for superior, extended bandwidth and more detailed, coherent sound. The PHonoPod HC-XTC uses 20 micron gold micro-plating over pure copper, resulting in better signal transfer, higher resolution, and our unique controlled 'skin-depth ratio' or SDR� for enhanced frequency/phase coherency. The PhonoPod also has the added advantage of being a true 75 Ohm impedance connection, amking this an ideal connector for use in digital (SPDIF) or video applications


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> https://world.taobao.com/item/527371251516.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.rz7ne7#detail
> 
> I use this shopping service - their communication and service is excellent.  And they understand English.  But they do charge 10%.
> 
> ...


 
 My PC is a Intel NUC powered by a 230-->19v adapter.
 I have a Aqvox linear psu feeding the ddc.
 Also have a Jitterbug.
 Do you think that´s enough to get good sound of the F1?
 I can also try run the pc on battery.
 Seen some jumpstarters that can feed 19v to my NUC.
 Or I can simply take a 12v battery from my trailer and connect to my converter I use when using laptop there.
 Provide 19v.
 Have no idea but if I use battery to power the NUC, maybe the Aqvox and stuff like that is overkill??


----------



## motberg

Hi,
  
 I just bought one of these SBooster PS for another application and noted the NUC info at the bottom of the page. You may find it an interesting PS option.
 https://www.sbooster.com/botw-pp-eco-18-19v/
  
 I think you would still keep the Aqvox (if it is 5V) for the USB power, especially if the F1 uses the USB 5V power.
  
 That combination with NUC/F1 and good PS's could be a great relatively simple solution.
  
 It probably would be a good idea to wait on the NUC PS until after you get the F1 up an running. I think it was mentioned that the F1 offers some isolation from the computer. It could be that the isolation on the F1 may minimize the cost effectiveness of the NUC PS upgrade. So maybe first get everything setup and then get any NUC PS options with some kind return policy offered so you can return it if it does not offer enough improvement.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> My PC is a Intel NUC powered by a 230-->19v adapter.
> I have a Aqvox linear psu feeding the ddc.
> Also have a Jitterbug.
> Do you think that´s enough to get good sound of the F1?
> ...


No the PC is fine. Get a better source for the F1, a TeraDak DC30W and a DC iPurifier is working well for me. Some attention to AC filtering. A step-up from there a Regen type device, this will take an external power feed from the TeraDak.

A decent USB cable as well.

Good luck! This thing Rocks!


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just bought one of these SBooster PS for another application and noted the NUC info at the bottom of the page. You may find it an interesting PS option.
> https://www.sbooster.com/botw-pp-eco-18-19v/
> ...


Good advice. I had a Aqvox, and it's not bad, but not great. I think the iPower 5VDC would be better, better still a inexpense full on LPS, but really thepossibilities are endless. The Aqvox is 5VDC, and comes with a breakout cable for power.


'Each journey starts with a single step'


----------



## Caper

Really useful information here, thank you guy´s!
  
 I think I will sit tight and wait until the F1 arrives.
 That SBooster PSU seems very interesting and propably the first on my purchase list after the F1 has arrived.
 See that Sbooster is available here in Sweden and they offer 30 day´s buy&try!
 I will experiment with pure batterypower to the nuc also to see if cleaner power gives better SQ.
 Since I already have the Aqvox I propably wait a while looking at how to better feed the F1.
  
 Knowing myself I would doubt it will take long before I have a Teradac and a DC iPurifier at home also.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## ccschua

I hope to have my unit soon. i believe the F-1 can be self power.


----------



## Caper

Anyone heard of this LPS?
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue65/keces.htm
 This fellow has 2 outputs and can be set to 19v and 5v.
 Could feed both my NUC and the DDC at the same time if they have cables that fits.
 Expensive though.


----------



## rb2013

*F-1 Review Update:*
  
 Last night another 4 hour listening session - now at the 70hr burnin mark.  Just keeps getting better and better - now running 24/7 for three day without a single unlock, or freeze. Same for the X-1 running my office system - more on that one later.
  
 Well it was Classic Rock night at rb2013's - Supertramp, Genesis, Led Zep, Jethro Tull (freaking 'Benefit' was unbelievable last night), etc...
  
 Each time my system has taken a leap forward - I love going back to stuff I have been listening to for a few decades.  Take Zep - first on cassette in my first car - a 'custom' Blaupunkt radio, then a Nakamichi 600, later on vinyl (when the tapes wore out!) with at least 20 different analog rigs, then on to CD, better vinyl (virgin 180/200 gram), Hi Res, and now WAV files.

  

  
 Each time my system improved it made listening to this great stuff 'fresh' again - new details emerging - a more direct experience to the music.  Well last night was a trip!  I'm shocked how stuff recorded on old Apex 16 track recorders captured so much information - that only now is being revealed.  A deep black background (from a lower noise floor) allows these very low level details to emerge - ambient reflections that the ear/mind use to recreate the illusion of a different performance venue.  But more interesting still - these deep ambient clues allow the ear/mind to project a true holographic presentation.  Like real 3D point sources - radiating out in the sound field - the subtle back and side reflections revealed.  Very good audio presents as stagger flattish 2D cutouts layered in the sound field - excellent audio blooms into 3D. And as the digital source gets better this 'point source' effect becomes greater - effortless.   Really, Really great analog has done this much better then digital - but I truly think digital has finally surpassed it.  At least for me.
  
 Years ago I had this amazing $30k analog system - VPI Super Scout Master signature (tonearm wired with Nordost Valhalla), Dynavector XV1S and Benz Ebony LP carts, Nordost Val IC's, Bent Audio step up transformers, Conrad Johnson Tubed phono pre (NOS Siemens CCa's), CJ Art2, etc....  In fact, I digitalized all my LPs (most virgin 200gm and 180gm pressings) at super high res 32 bit/176K sampling using a pro audio ADC.  I got with in 90-95% of the actually LP spinning.  Each album cleaned, de-maged, de-static, VTA aligned, VPI outer ring clamped and inner clamped, etc...I then sold all that equipment but kept the albums (I do have a less expensive analog rig now - Ortofon2M Black - outstanding cart!).  Used the money to invest in digital - getting the APL NWO DAC, etc...
  

  
 That was 10 yrs ago!
  
 And the benefits of this little F-1 in playing those Hi Res files is extraordinary.
  
 Anyway on to the X-1 - it has been playing faithfully in my office system, in fact listening right now to some wonderful Bach - Starker 'Six Suites for Solo Cello' - one of those Hi Res LP files.  Just awesome - the Bach and the X-1!  What space and tone! Right now at the 90 hr mark.  Once past 200 hrs will compare against the F-1 in my main listening room.  But already I can tell is better then the Breeze here.  Just greater ambience and detail.  The Singxer X-1 for $59 with NDK SD clocks for audio and USB, 4 layer board, low noise LDO!  How can you beat that?
  
 Ordered the Curious 200mm USB cable link for use between either the Regen or the Recovery (also on it's way) and the DDC (with or without a iPurifer2 in between).
  
 So I will get to try the F-1, X-1, Q-1S and the new Pro4a all with both of these neat devices - so far the Regen/iPurifer2 is sounding very good with the F-1.
  
 Cheers!
 Bob


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Anyone heard of this LPS?
> http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue65/keces.htm
> This fellow has 2 outputs and can be set to 19v and 5v.
> Could feed both my NUC and the DDC at the same time if they have cables that fits.
> Expensive though.


 

 6A for a single output!  That's a hefty beast - good price too.
  
 This one is highly recommended - but more expensive.
 http://www.paulhynesdesign.com


----------



## rb2013

Here are some more pictures including some internal - I wonder what regulators he uses?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/272135533285?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true


----------



## rb2013

Here's an interesting one for under $100.  I like R-Cores for digital - they have higher noise suppression the toroidal.
  
*Ultra Low Noise linear Power supply 5V 9V 12V 15V 18V etc*
*Linear power supply circuit structure are varied, we produce power with discrete components precision linear power supply based. using 2pcs Original Toshiba2SC5200.

 65VA  **high quality R-core Transformer. **The Performance is not an ordinary LT1085CT, LT1084, LM317 and other integrated regulator can compare.*
  
  

Input voltage:  AC115V or AC230V  for choose

Output voltage: (have following several kinds for choose)
  
 1: DC5V   (7.5A)
2: DC9V   (5.5A)
3: DC12V (4.16A)
4: DC15V (3.33A)
5: DC18V (2.8A)
6: DC24V (2.1A)
7: DC28V (1.78A)

Please tell us which kind voltage is you need.

Output DC plug size: 5.5*2.1mm  ( *Internal +    external **-*）

External dimensions：172mm*60mm*251mm (W*H*D)

 Front panel:  Default Black.   (we also can provide silver front)

Package included:   Finished 65VA Ultra Low Noise linear Power supply        X 1
                                    Output DC cable   X 1  (DC plug 5.5*2.1mm)

 (we also can provide other size DC plug. if you need other type. Please add paypal note or contact us after do the payment)
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Finished-65VA-Ultra-Low-Noise-linear-Power-supply-5V-9V-12V-15V-18V-etc/111755114908?_tr


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Here's an interesting one for under $100.  I like R-Cores for digital - they have higher noise suppression the toroidal.
> 
> *Ultra Low Noise linear Power supply 5V 9V 12V 15V 18V etc*
> *Linear power supply circuit structure are varied, we produce power with discrete components precision linear power supply based. using 2pcs Original Toshiba2SC5200.
> ...


 
  
 No 19v option listed but mailed him if he can provide that.
 I am not sure if my NUC runs on 18v.
 The original psu delivers Output Voltage: 19V, 3.42A, 65 Watt
This one 2.8A@18v.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> No 19v option listed but mailed him if he can provide that.
> I am not sure if my NUC runs on 18v.
> The original psu delivers Output Voltage: 19V, 3.42A, 65 Watt
> This one 2.8A@18v.


 

 May not have quite enough juice.  Wonder if he could set one for 7.5V as that's what the Regen and the Recovery like when powering the DDC.  Not quite sure what the F-1 draws - I bet it's more then 500mA's. At 9V the Regen gets kinda warm and from reading the posts on the Recovery thread - 9V is the very upper limit of Rev B board.
  
 Safer to use a 7-7.5V PS when powering both the iPurifer2 and the DDC.


----------



## Caper

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGH-Finished-100VA-Ultra-Low-Noise-linear-Power-supply-ouptut-9v-12v-19v-24v-/222056637416?hash=item33b39b63e8:g:HBkAAOSwZ8ZW6pW6
  
 This should do it for my NUC?
 19v 4.2A and a 5.5*2.1 plug that would fit to the nuc.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGH-Finished-100VA-Ultra-Low-Noise-linear-Power-supply-ouptut-9v-12v-19v-24v-/222056637416?hash=item33b39b63e8:g:HBkAAOSwZ8ZW6pW6
> 
> This should do it for my NUC?
> 19v 4.2A and a 5.5*2.1 plug that would fit to the nuc.


 

 Plenty of juice and sounds like a decent low cost solution.  At some point I will go for a better LPS - but I first need to nail down what my system will be- and what voltage I need.
  
 This DDC game is moving so fast right now...


----------



## Caper

Yeah, I was reading that Gustard U12 thread(200+) pages and decided to buy one.
 After placing the order I continued to read and realized the Gustard already is old stuff..
 Sold it without packing it up, buyer really happy though.
 So I aimed for a Pro3A but they were sold out.
 Decided to buy a Breeze wich is ok but now ordered a F1.
 I guess when you get your Pro4A the F1 might be old stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I am really no Audiophile but enjoy tech stuff, that´s why I run the NUC as a mediarig here at home.
 Since buying a better soundsystem I joined this forum and when reading I can´t resist upgrading.
  
 I even subscribed to Tidal HiFi streaming service now when I have a decent soundsystem.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Yeah, I was reading that Gustard U12 thread(200+) pages and decided to buy one.
> After placing the order I continued to read and realized the Gustard already is old stuff..
> Sold it without packing it up, buyer really happy though.
> So I aimed for a Pro3A but they were sold out.
> ...


 

 Welcome to the 'Machine'!  Thinking about it - that'll be on tonight's playlist!

  
  
 Yes it can be quite addicting - but the payoff is immense.  Right now for very little money just world class sound quality.
  
 The Pro4a will have to hurdle over a very high bar.  I will try it and keep it or sell it - by then I should have the mods under way on the new F-1 board.  I mean can I summon the band to appear in my listening room in the flesh?  I guess that's the 'Absolute Sound'. LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hey it could be worse!  Imagine if there was no used market to sell this stuff. And on another thread someone just bought a couple of Mutec MC-3+ USB's!  That's $1000 EACH!  So the price to join this party is a lot more reasonable.
  
 http://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Welcome to the 'Machine'!  Thinking about it - that'll be on tonight's playlist!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Absolutely love Pink Floyd, so does my friend that went so far he tatooed a wall and a prism on his arm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Since upgrading I have been listening to Pink Floyd a LOT.
 Best group ever...maybe.
  
 I think I´ll stick to this party!
 Reasonably investments for me that have many other hobbies in my life.
 As soon as I am happy with my sound I will try to invite a friend of mine who still havent converted from analogue stuff.
 He only say, computer/digital music is just garbage and can´t compete at all.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Absolutely love Pink Floyd, so does my friend that went so far he tatooed a wall and a prism on his arm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 'Wish You Where Here' is my favorite - well at least this computer audio is NOT 'running over the same old ground, year after year...'
  
 Yes many hobbies too!  REI has been killing me - new ultra light weight backpacking tent, new gortex rain gear, new ultra light Corsa ice axe, etc...it goes on and on.
  
 Oh you will get there - trust me - from an old crusty vinyl guy at heart.  You will blow him away!  I still spin once a month or so - just for the nostalgia of it.  Hit Goodwill looking for pristine classical vinyl - then digitalize it - so at least a decent analog rig is worth keeping.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Caper

I´ll be watching this thread closely to see what you think of the coming Pro4A and how you modify your F1 also.
 Have no such skills so I can modify anything really but have a friend that can help me with that.
  
 A bit off topic, sorry :
  
 I am an outdoor guy also, mostly fishing and hunting.
 My nickname is actually taken from what I mostly hunt with my own breeded dogs.
  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_capercaillie


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> I´ll be watching this thread closely to see what you think of the coming Pro4A and how you modify your F1 also.
> Have no such skills so I can modify anything really but have a friend that can help me with that.
> 
> A bit off topic, sorry :
> ...


 

 Cool!  Bet the hunting northern Sweden is amazing - Reindeer!  I'm mostly an alpine backpacker - the US Pac NW is rich with places - love the Olympics.  Hoisting that 50lb backpack up those mountains keeps me in shape.
  
 I will order up the Nichicons next week and as soon as the 2nd F-1 arrives begin the mods.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Here are some more pictures including some internal - I wonder what regulators he uses?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/272135533285?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true


 

 Regulator based on the LM723 about as old as your Nakamichi 600, circa 1978.
 http://www.ti.com/product/LM723.
  
  
 Nice comments BTW on the new XCORE-200 from XMOS


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Regulator based on the LM723 about as old as your Nakamichi 600, circa 1978.
> http://www.ti.com/product/LM723.
> 
> 
> Nice comments BTW on the new XCORE-200 from XMOS


 

 Hey thanks!  Then nada to that LPS - no free lunches.
  
 I see a Hynes in my future - down the road...
  
 Well in 6 months I expect at least a dozen new DDC with them - so that'll be interesting.
  
 Funny Breeze used a heat sink on the U-8 as std.  I imagine the reduced gate size of the XU208 allows them to run cool - faster processing speed too (less taxing on the device?).

  
  
 Could be why these have been so stable and the Breeze as well - versus the other DDC's I've had.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Funny Breeze used a heat sink on the U-8 as std.  I imagine the reduced gate size of the XU208 allows them to run cool - faster processing speed too (less taxing on the device?).
> 
> 
> 
> Could be why these have been so stable and the Breeze as well - versus the other DDC's I've had.


 
  
 Breeze makes a good product less skimping and corner cutting compared to most of their competition.
 Too much heat is always a bad thing for semiconductors, nice to see Breeze takes steps to deal with this.
 The regulators are dumping a lot of heat into the PCB, this will heat up the XMOS chip and the heatsink is quite crucial because of this,
 some of the other competing DDCs use the same method to heat sink the regulators but do not have the heatsink on chip.
  
 The faster processor XU208 may finally mean that we will start seeing DSD256 and DSD512 in DoP format,
 USB in UAC 2.0/async mode requires the DDC to report back to the host on the sample rates regularly, as the DDC is reponsible for flow control.
 This has been a bottleneck to the faster sample rates needed by the higher DSD speeds.
  
 The faster processor helps to with this, there should also be more processor cycles to handle DoP (DSD-over-PCM) processing.
 DoP is important as its is a standard most of the industry is able to agree to.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Breeze makes a good product less skimping and corner cutting compared to most of their competition.
> Too much heat is always a bad thing for semiconductors, nice to see Breeze takes steps to deal with this.
> The regulators are dumping a lot of heat into the PCB, this will heat up the XMOS chip and the heatsink is quite crucial because of this,
> some of the other competing DDCs use the same method to heat sink the regulators but do not have the heatsink on chip.
> ...


That would be good on the higher DSD DoP rates.

Did you notice any other improvements with 208 vs the U-8? They seem to run on the same drivers.


----------



## Yviena

caper said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGH-Finished-100VA-Ultra-Low-Noise-linear-Power-supply-ouptut-9v-12v-19v-24v-/222056637416?hash=item33b39b63e8:g:HBkAAOSwZ8ZW6pW6
> 
> This should do it for my NUC?
> 19v 4.2A and a 5.5*2.1 plug that would fit to the nuc.




Actually i think the best upgrade for audio playback would be using balanced power conditioner.http://www.airlinktransformers.com/balanced_power_supply/conditioning_balanced_power_supply/


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Did you notice any other improvements with 208 vs the U-8? They seem to run on the same drivers.


 
 Not much, twice as fast , up to twice the memory, both have 8 processing cores.
 Base model is 128k memory vs 64k memory.
  
 Looks like XMOS is not revealing much at this time.
  
 XU208-256
 http://www.xmos.com/support/silicon?product=18313&component=18096
  
  
 U8A-128
 http://www.xmos.com/support/silicon?product=16435&component=16620
  
 Singxer has done a good job with their F1, squeezing most of Tanly like functionality (isolation, reclocking, femtoclocks) onto a small card.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Not much, twice as fast , up to twice the memory, both have 8 processing cores.
> Base model is 128k memory vs 64k memory.
> 
> Looks like XMOS is not revealing much at this time.
> ...


Never heard the Tanly, but had a Hydra Z and the Yellowtec PUC2 lite, in addition to the Chinese DDC's. Boy none sound like this little card. Really on a different level.

Makes me wonder all this discussion on CA that USB sucks, and will never be anygood, to many unfixable problems. The new way is optical ethernet LAN and a Render.

I use my analog system as a reference, and I couldn't disagree more, not after this DDC rolling exercise, especially with the F-1 and the X-1. I had some very good cd transports as a ref as well. My APL DAC is actually a player and can play SACD's and DVD-A's, as well as CD's. So I can do on the fly comparisons of say a DSD SACD to the SPDIF input, in real time from the remote. Right now my Redbook WAV files crush the SACD of the same recording.

For me the sound I'm hearing is the gold std. I wonder is there more to come? Even better USB? I find it very hard to believe, but logic says of course, I mean I've put effort into this, but haven't spent any ridiculous money. Not like the old analog days of $5k MC carts...I guess just keep pushing forward.


----------



## abartels

FYI
  
 DIYINHK has had a multichannel interface for a year or so (based on 16 core XU-216 512) which also can be used in stereo mode.
 So, when talking about processing power (and talking about the newest XMOS chips), this is the more powerful chip from the latest generation.
 Of course, there are several other chip versions, 10 - 12 - 16 and 32 cores available too.
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/101-xmos-multichannel-high-quality-usb-tofrom-i2sdsd-spdif-pcb.html
  
 Above PCB design is without isolation, so not interesting enough for us, it's just informative meant.
  
 It's always the question if the more powerful devices are the better sounding ones. In this case I am not sure, it's more design related than chip related,
 but that's my 2 cents...


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Hey thanks!  Then nada to that LPS - no free lunches.
> 
> I see a Hynes in my future - down the road...


 
  
 Here is LPS comparison including Teddy Pardo and mentioned Keces DC-116
 http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/65016-great-big-power-supply-shootout-teddy-pardo-diy-wallwart/


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> FYI
> 
> DIYINHK has had a multichannel interface for a year or so (based on 16 core XU-216 512) which also can be used in stereo mode.
> So, when talking about processing power (and talking about the newest XMOS chips), this is the more powerful chip from the latest generation.
> ...


 

 Well good point Alex.  I think once I have a chance to do a close face-off in my main system of the F-1 vs the X-1 I will be able to say more.  They both use the same XU208 one with NDK SD clocks and a simpler design the other with the 'split' board design and USB isolation and Crystek CCHD-575 clocks.  So that's shed more light on the question.
  
 Then when the DIYinHK DXIO Pro4a arrives, I'm assuming with the XU208, that as a comparison as well.
  
  
 And some potential exciting news!  Someone PM'd with the possibly of lending me a Mutec MC-3+USB for a little trial.
  
 Now that would be stiff competition for the F-1 and X-1.  I need to study a little more about this $1000 DDC - but what I have seen so far - pretty impressive.  Built in Galvanic isolation, excellent clocks, with a port for an external atomic clock running at 10Mhz (and maybe other freq's).  I'm thinking this is the new top dog - price no object - DDC.


----------



## rb2013

A little OT but interesting: Speaking of atomic clocks - reading through the 'uncurated' CA thread on the W4S Recovery - this link was posted -
http://audiotechnologies.gr/index_files/Page311.htm
  
 This company Audio Technology makes some neat gear- like a tubed DAC that can be ordered with a OXCO clock or a Rubidum atom clock.  The *USBP-11​* USB player​ 


 It's a USB only DAC - comes std with the generic TXCO JYEC clocks for 870 Euros, but for another 700 Euros can be ordered with OXCO clocks of their making.
 And for ANOTHER 2500 Euros with an ATOMIC clock.  A very nice Rubidium one!  This really has my interest.  To bad it's limited in inputs to only USB.
  
 But they do sell the Rubidum clock separately for 3650 Euros called the RCG-10:
  
  
 So here is the interesting part - they quote the phase noise numbers for all three clocks:  the TXCO, OXCO, and the Atomic - so to compare to the NDKSD and the CCHD- 575:
  
 Numbers in this order: Atomic Rubidum clock, OXCO, CCHD-575, NDK SD, TXCO JYEC (this is the 1st time I have seen accurate measurements for OEM JYEC TXCO clocks at 10Hz & 10kHz - these are often relabled 'Gustard', 'Melodious', 'Vanguard', etc...):
  
 10 Hz:  -120dB, -110dB, -100dB, -112dB, -90dB
 10KHz: -150dB, -140dB, -163dB, -156dB, -120dB
  
Soooo the at 10Hz the Atomic and OXCO are clearly far superior to the TXCO's even the NDK and CCHD - BUT!...  
  
 At 10KHz the Crystek CCHD-575 crushes!  With the best reading by far -23dB better then the OXCO and -13dB better then the $4000 Rubidum clock.  The NDK SD is also excellent.  closer at 10Hz to the much more expensive alternatives - and not too far behind the CCHD at the high end.
  
 Reminder the X-1 uses the NDK SD's and the F-1 the CCHD-575's - the el cheapo JYEC TXCO are not in the same league with either.  Yet these are the clocks that the Gustard, Breeze, Melodious use.
  
 One note the Rubidum and OXCO clocks do have greater stability then the TXCO's: in decending order (all plus or minus) .000007ppm, 0.1ppm, 20ppm, 20ppm, 1ppm
 So these more expensive clocks have orders of magnitude greater stability.  And over time TXCO's have greater drift - Crystek quotes 3ppm the 1st yr, <1ppm after.
  
 Edit Correction - the NDK SD is better at 10Hz then both the OXCO and the CCHD-575.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> FYI
> 
> DIYINHK has had a multichannel interface for a year or so (based on 16 core XU-216 512) which also can be used in stereo mode.
> So, when talking about processing power (and talking about the newest XMOS chips), this is the more powerful chip from the latest generation.
> ...


 
 Hey Alex, You are modding wisard - besides running an external DC connection any other mods you might suggest?  I'm already looking at replacing those 35V 100uf caps with Nichicons.


----------



## rb2013

*F-1 Review Update:*
  
 Another long listening session last night at the 95Hr burnin mark.  Again ran all night with out a single unlock or freeze - that's like 4 days straight 24/7.  Same for the X-1 running in the office system - these have to be some of the most stable devices yet.
  
 The sound is definitely blooming - the changes I noticed last night (listening to mostly female vocals) is a growing delicacy to the sound - finesse with intricate soft passages.  Very pleasing - really outstanding for something in this price range.  I notice the tone growing richer and fuller - now wondering if the W4S Recovery will be needed - the Regen is just great.  What a amazing SQ - some who say DDC's don't really matter much - have never heard this baby.  I know my system is highly refined and I'm very familiar to it's sound - listening nightly reading while the wifey watches her Lifetime movies - I always say to myself 'I hope tonight is not another one of those husband murders the wife episodes!'.  Anyway I digress.
  
 I can hear distinct changes for the better with each passing day.
  
 So today I will run the Isotek burin routine all day - for more information on the Isotek burnin disk check this out.  It is designed to do a few things:
 http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/essentials/full-system-enhancer
  


> A variety of tracks featuring specially developed algorithms, which create a unique set of signals to reduce burn-in time and ‘run-in’ equipment. The disc can also demagnetise audio and audio-visual components.
> 
> Perfect burn-in disc for all new components.
> Full system demagnetization.
> ...


 
  
 While no fun to listen to  - I use it during every equipment burnin.

 Cheers!


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> A little OT but interesting: Speaking of atomic clocks - reading through the 'uncurated' CA thread on the W4S Recovery - this link was posted -
> http://audiotechnologies.gr/index_files/Page311.htm
> 
> This company Audio Technology makes some neat gear- like a tubed DAC that can be ordered with a OXCO clock or a Rubidum atom clock.  The *USBP-11​* USB player​
> ...


 
  
 Here is a miniature low power OCXO I am using with one of my DACs. Replaced the stock CCHD-575 which has superior  phase noise "on paper" by about 3-5dB @10Hz
  
 Made quite a large difference in the imaging, very similar to the huge soundstage expansion you described in one of your F-1 listening sessions.
  
 Bass was exceptionally deep, I am actually feeling the bass come up the chair thru the floor.
 (Martin Logan Summit + Velodyne HGS18, the -3dB@12Hz measured by REW)


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> So today I will run the Isotek burin routine all day - for more information on the Isotek burnin disk check this out.  It is designed to do a few things:
> http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/essentials/full-system-enhancer
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I actually have that disc laying here and never been used before.
 Right now playing track 1 for small speakers and then going to play track 3.
  
 Never believed in that but since I have nothing much to do right now I can let it play


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Here is a miniature low power OCXO I am using with one of my DACs. Replaced the stock CCHD-575 which has superior  phase noise "on paper" by about 3-5dB @10Hz
> 
> Made quite a large difference in the imaging, very similar to the huge soundstage expansion you described in one of your F-1 listening sessions.
> 
> ...


 

 So your DAC is set-up to handle a 100Mhz clock?  I replaced the crappy XO in my DAC60 mod project with a Vanguard TXCO that made a nice difference - then added a W4S Remedy with the CCHD-975 to the DAC60 - an even bigger step up.
  
 My DAC60 uses the R2R multi-bit PCM1704UK DACs - much less prone to clocking.  I see your DAC has the D-S Sabers.  The OXCO should make a bigger difference.  From what I understand the R2R DACs run multi-bits each clock cycle - the PCM1704 24-bit from the resistor ladder.  Where as the D-S DACS have to 're-create' those 24 bits from just 1-bit clocked a 256x per output sample.
  
 From the Audio Technologies website:


> ** What is a clock?
> 
> Most commercial analog to digital converters are ΔΣ (delta-sigma) type.
> 
> ...


 
 From Mother of Tone article: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
 R2R DACs:


> In the CD-format chapter you have seen that digital numbers are translated into a staircase signal, and by rounding the steps, we get something that pretty much resembles the originally captured signal.
> This translation process from numbers into voltage steps, is what happens in a R2R DA converter which is sometimes also called a "ladder-DAC" or "multibit-DAC", as resistors (the R's in R2R) are configured as an ascending series of voltage dividers.
> Such a R2R converter is a static device, in that it is able to generate a clean voltage (with 16 bits resolution there are 65536 different voltages) and hold that voltage until another number is converted, or if numbers repeat - for an infinitely long time, while maintaining an extremely low noise level.
> In order to achieve a certain level of performance, the resistors (R's) inside the converter chip must be precisely trimmed, which can make a device very expensive to manufacture, especially when true 24-bit resolution is required.


 
  
D-S DACs


> In this conversion technique, a single switch replaced the precision resistors of the R2R DAC, and it was believed (and shown to a certain extent) that if only the switch was toggled fast enough, one could also achieve many different voltages.
> If for example the switch is more often switched to 5V than to 0V, and if that switch-signal is run through a low-pass filter then the output voltage will also be closer to 5V, than to 0V, plus lots of noise.
> This fast switching technique is employed in sigma-delta conversion and it is also the technical foundation of the newly introduced SACD or DSD format.
> As a 16 bit R2R DAC is able to generate 65536 different static voltages, and a single switch can only generate 2 different voltages (hi and low), a high switching frequency (usually in the range of a couple of MegaHertz, and achieved through oversampling) is necessary for proper operation and thus, much noise will be produced by the switching process in a sigma-delta converter.
> ...


 
  
 He uses the 32-bit AKM multi-segment D-S DAC (I believe the first 4 bits are R2R then D-S for the rest).  Alex Peychev of APL takes those 1st 4 R2R bits and runs 6 DACs per channel to create 24bit R2R hybrid design - that's what's in my APL DAC.
  
  
 Those OXCO's are very cool!


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> I actually have that disc laying here and never been used before.
> Right now playing track 1 for small speakers and then going to play track 3.
> 
> Never believed in that but since I have nothing much to do right now I can let it play


 

 Well I don't know if makes a difference versus playing just music - but my audio OCD likes it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Speaking of Audio OCD - The W4S Recovery arrived today - so I swapped it in for the Regen.  7.5VDC LPS/Dc iPurifier - iPurifier2 in between the F-1 and the Recovery.
  
 Cold out of the box better then the Regen but by only a few percent - at least right now.  A tad more space and a touch wider sound stage.  No change in the tonal signature - maybe just a bit lighter on the vocals.  I say I do like it better then the Regen - and I'm sure after 200 hrs burnin - it will get better.
  
 Once the F-1 and X-1 finish their 200 hr run in will do some swapping around of USB gizmos and PS's.  Last piece of the puzzle a Curious 200mm USB cable for running between the DDC and Recovery or Regen.
  
 Note on this uncurated W4S Recovery thread on CA a lot of folks like the Intona - but a few have commented on compatibly issues.  And frequent firmware changes (which require sending the Intona back to Europe for updates).  I will sit this one out for the time being.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/w4s-and-other-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-fixers-non-curated-27636/index4.html


----------



## Caper

I think I will let you play with all your new toy´s and when you are done and decide what not to keep...pls mess me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Pretty sure all those things not qualified in your system would be just fine here.
  
 I have been close to push down that buy button several times on the Intona but resisted so far.
 Just read that link and one guy is extremely impressed by it and the fact it sounds at it best solo, no other stuff connected.
 Would make things so much easier.
 I wounder if the standard version would do or do I have to get the industrial?


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> I think I will let you play with all your new toy´s and when you are done and decide what not to keep...pls mess me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No audio difference from the std and the industrial.  Just a higher voltage spike protection.
  
 Yes - many like it - but some have had connection issues - like with the Berkeley Audio USB.
  
 And some have had issues with XMOS DDCs and the Recovery - no issues here with the F-1.  Note there has been a board revision on the Recovery - I have the latest Rev B version.  Uptone had the same thing on the original Regen (the green) and revised it and released the amber  - the one I have.  They upgraded everyone's board - great service from those fine folks!  This is why I'm holding off on the Intona - hoping for a 2.0 version with better clocks.
  
 Well it will take a few weeks to sort through all the permutations.  But it won't  be nearly as bad the 17 6922 tube review I did (see my moniker) that got me to 'Contributor' status from the fine folks here at Headfi.  That took 7-8 hours a day for a full week of tube rolling!
  
 Looking forward to tonight listening session with the Recovery and a bottle of small batch Elijah Craig.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > FYI
> ...


 
 Hi Bob,
  
 Most important is as less as much noise in psu, and please feed it with it's own R-Core, and if possible, connect that R-Core to a powerfilter, the ones I used in my dac, this really does the trick.
  
 Changing caps should also improve SQ, but first things first, external psu for crystals, burnin-in for 150 hours and start listening to it


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> So your DAC is set-up to handle a 100Mhz clock?  I replaced the crappy XO in my DAC60 mod project with a Vanguard TXCO that made a nice difference - then added a W4S Remedy with the CCHD-975 to the DAC60 - an even bigger step up.
> 
> My DAC60 uses the R2R multi-bit PCM1704UK DACs - much less prone to clocking.  I see your DAC has the D-S Sabers.  The OXCO should make a bigger difference.  From what I understand the R2R DACs run multi-bits each clock cycle - the PCM1704 24-bit from the resistor ladder.  Where as the D-S DACS have to 're-create' those 24 bits from just 1-bit clocked a 256x per output sample.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, the OCXO was an unexpected improvement, on paper the CCHD-575 would have been just as good if phase noise was the only measure, it clearly was not the case from the listening test.
  
 The DDC is a big part of the equation, the one I am using on the DAC is a modified Amanero with CCHD-957s. I2S output.
 The board has 6xADP-150s plus a LT3042 primary regulator, 0.8uV noise.

  
_*In fact, the total noise-output is never stated in the data-sheets, and measurements only mention in-band-noise up to 20kHz, suggesting that higher frequency noise has no effect on fidelity.*_
  
This is one reason I never cared for DS DACs in general, the ESS Saber series being the exception. The bulk of my current inventory is R2R (Schitt Yggy, Soekris DAM1021, Philips TDA1541A).
  
 I find the ESS Hyperstream modulator in the Saber32 quite exceptional in that the noise is at -140dBFS up to 200kHz, indeed this is the one of the main claims of their IP, as the snippet from ESS's Hyperstream patent shows.
  


 Patent reference is on the right side of the pic if there is any interest.
  
 The giant spur at 3MHz is one reason why implementation is so important, if vendors do not have the correct analog post processing, the spur being only 40dB down causes no end of havoc.
 Adding to the complication is the use of cheap opamps in the I/V that will struggle in the 2-4MHz range.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> No audio difference from the std and the industrial.  Just a higher voltage spike protection.
> 
> Yes - many like it - but some have had connection issues - like with the Berkeley Audio USB.
> 
> ...


 
 Ordered the Intona standard.
 Should be here in a couple of day´s, way before the F1 I also ordered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Interesting to hear if I will hear any difference from the configuration I now have!


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Thanks, the OCXO was an unexpected improvement, on paper the CCHD-575 would have been just as good if phase noise was the only measure, it clearly was not the case from the listening test.
> 
> The DDC is a big part of the equation, the one I am using on the DAC is a modified Amanero with CCHD-957s. I2S output.
> The board has 6xADP-150s plus a LT3042 primary regulator, 0.8uV noise.
> ...


 

 Great info thanks!  I had a DAC with the Sabre 32 it had a hardness in SQ - but very detailed.  The Eastern Elec MiniMax Plus - choice of rollable opamps (socketed) and tube outputs.  No matter what I tried I could not get it tonally where I wanted and sold it.
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1212/eastern_electric_minimax_dac_plus.htm
  
 MSB Tech - the R2R giants published this on the D-S 32 bit DACs -
 http://www.msbtech.com/support/What_about_32_bit_DACs.php?Page=supportHome
  
 And the issue of chip on board opamps high lighted here:
 http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/today-in-electronics-everything-is-made.html
  


> Delta Sigma DACs all have internal op-amps to provide a voltage output.
> 
> Op amps are not evil, however there are good sounding op-amps and average sounding ones. Good ones cost more than most delta sigma DAC chips themselves. One of the problems with most delta sigma designs, is that the on board op-amp is not of the best quality. There is no option to take the current output from the chip. Hence we are stuck with the voltage output and consequently, the "sound' of the op amp, that the manufacturer gives us.
> 
> ...


 
 Alex at APL found a way to hotwire the AKM 32-bit D-S multi-segment chips and run them in series
 .
 The reason I choose the classic 24-bit R2R PCM1704UK based DAC60 to begin my mod project - the results far exceeding my expectations:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 I'm in awe of the Yggy!  That is very cool technology - and the SQ is excellent I hear. 
  
 'm a tubed DAC guy so these would be on my 'lottery money' list:
  
 APL DSD-M: http://www.aplhifi.com/products/dsd-m
 Total DAC D1 Tubed: http://www.totaldac.com/D1-tube-eng.htm
 Aqua La Scala MK2: http://www.aquahifi.com/la_scala.html
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Most important is as less as much noise in psu, and please feed it with it's own R-Core, and if possible, connect that R-Core to a powerfilter, the ones I used in my dac, this really does the trick.
> 
> Changing caps should also improve SQ, but first things first, external psu for crystals, burnin-in for 150 hours and start listening to it


 
 Yes I agree feeding the clocks directly from a separate 3.3VDC source would make sense - thanks!
  


caper said:


> Ordered the Intona standard.
> Should be here in a couple of day´s, way before the F1 I also ordered
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice!  Well I'll be curious as to your results with the F-1
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

*F-1 Review Update:*
  
 Ok the F-1 is at the 120hrs mark for last nights listening session - now with the W4S Recovery.  First - no unlocks again - super stable drivers and unit - same for the X-1.  Rock solid.  Sounding great!  Don't really think the Recovery made any significant improvement (over the Regen) - as least before burnin.  So we'll see.
  
 As I was listening I was re-reading the CA 15 USB/SPDIF converter shootout on my tablet.  Just a refreasher this was their ranking of DDCs:
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
  
To me​*Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB defines the current state of the art inUSB/SPDIF converters design​*.​​ ​ The final shootout score is as follows:​


> To me​*Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB defines the current state of the art inUSB/SPDIF converters design​*.​​ ​ The final shootout score is as follows:​​ ​ Matrix 24/96 - 60​​ Hegel HD2 - 65​​ Musical Fidelity V-Link II - 75​​ Stello CDT-100 - 75​​ Bryston BDP-1 - 80​​ Halide Design The Bridge – 80 (+5 when powered from​SOtM​USBcard)​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo - 80​​ Stello U3 - 85​​ JK SPDIF Mk3 - 90​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply - 90​​ Soulution 590 – 90 (+5 when powered from​SOtM​USBcard)​​ Audiophilleo 1/2 - 95​​ dCS U-Clock - 95 (+5 when used with dCS​DACand the Clock Link feature enabled)​​ Empirical Audio Off Ramp Turbo 5 - 95​​ AP1 with the PurePower battery​PSU- 95 (borderline 100)​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply + Evo Clock - 100​​ dCS Scarlatti CD/SACD transport - 100 (+5 when used with dCS​DACand the Clock Link feature enabled)​​ *Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB – 110​*


 
 So it looks like the $1800 Berkeley Audio USB was the top dog - BUT then I read near the end of the comments a discussion of the PUC2/PUClite, as the new Mutec MC-3 USb entered the discussion:
  


> 10-22-2015, 02:03 PM#535​​
> *joelha*
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  


> 0-22-2015, 03:42 PM#536​​
> *rossb*
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 Then someone linked over to the Stereotimes Review of the PUC2 Lite:
 http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
  
 Well - Does the PUC2 better the Berkeley????  Wow!  If so I would use some logic and say the F-1 (well fed) would just crush the Berkeley!!!
  
 Of course this is all system dependent - but at least in mine the F-1 is heads over the PUC2 and the Pro3a.
  
 So far no threads on CA about the F-1, X-1 or even the XMOS XU208 - interesting for a computer audio blog to not have this on their radar - at least a discussion.
  
 Bet when they stumble on to this little board - some folks there will flip out.  Of course the 'rear guard' that flame the threads there constantly (Poor REShaman) - will likely dismiss it without even hearing it saying "it can;t be any good - it doesn't cost at least a grand"

 Well who'll be the brave one to open the discussion there - better wear your flamesuit.


----------



## Luckbad

One thing to note on CA and to a lesser extent HF, cost translates to audio fidelity. If something is super inexpensive, it _can't _be very good. People on CA make me feel poor.
  
 Other people also have very different rankings and ears. I've heard from people I trust that the M2Tech is pretty mediocre in the value department and the Audiophilleo is horrible value (like... not really better than a lot of modern USB inputs in DACs).
  
 I've also heard the Gustard U12 is worlds better than stock USB. I didn't hear a difference. I heard the Audio-GD DI-2014 is much better than that. No difference. Audio-GD DI-U8 is bonkers good! Okay, this one I could tell it was slightly better than pure USB. Now we're getting somewhere...
  
 CI Audio Transient MKII will do your laundry! Actually, this one _is _slightly better to my ears than the DI-U8, even powered by USB. Give it a nice power supply and bring its total cost to four figures, and it's probably extremely impressive.
  
 But wait, Mutec MC-1.2 is as good as the Transient and hundreds less! Guess I better listen head-to-head. Actually, yes. Power it from USB and it's slightly worse, plug in the mains and it's slightly better.
  
 Crap, am I on the USB converter train? I better try the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB. $1100? Frick... I hope it's no better than the MC-1.2.
  
 Curses. Malurses. The Mutec MC-3+ USB is clearly very good. It's the first converter I've used that made me realize things really could get better in an obvious way. Everything is the same, just better. Cleaner, clearer, better stage, better separation... 
  
 Maybe these people aren't as crazy as I thought? 
  
 Okay, I don't know why my tangent went that far. Anyway, be wary of the CA crowd. They--in a very unfair and generalized sense--translate cost to quality. In way, that happens here as well. These super cheap options are very high value, thus contribute to our perception of their quality.
  
 I'll get @rb2013 one of my Mutec MC-3+ USBs sometime soon so he can give his impressions.


----------



## murphythecat

RB2013, one thing to consider is the shoot out at CA was done in 2013.
 I think the XMOS chip is really the cause of the better SQ and maybe im wrong but the units in the CA shootout are too old to use XMOS.


----------



## rb2013

luckbad said:


> One thing to note on CA and to a lesser extent HF, cost translates to audio fidelity. If something is super inexpensive, it _can't _be very good. People on CA make me feel poor.
> 
> Other people also have very different rankings and ears. I've heard from people I trust that the M2Tech is pretty mediocre in the value department and the Audiophilleo is horrible value (like... not really better than a lot of modern USB inputs in DACs).
> 
> ...


 

 Great post! LOL!  But you are so right.  And there is an element of truth to money buys SQ.  The Berkeley so very well designed and using top components - same for the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB (they need a shorter name).   Have you ever heard the Berkeley USB?  I haven't and of course am curious - (hint, hint to anyone out there).
  
 Thank you for the offer to loan me that amazing unit - that's how I came on the PUC2 lite.
  
 I started this computer audio thing over 10 yrs ago - before USB 2.0 Async.  To get the thru put I needed I had to go the Pro Audio route - using the RME FireFace 800 - a $1500 solution.  It used the sota at the time higher bandwidth Firewire 1394b (same as the F-22 Raptor).  And it was pretty good.

  
  
 Fast forward to today - like a bi-plane compared to that F-22. 
  
 So at least for me and my system, and ears each step here up the USB ladder has been noticeable - the F-1 a major step up - in fact a leap up.  As I say I always use my analog system as a litmus test - reference point.  Soon it may very well go bye, bye...
  
 Cheers!


----------



## murphythecat

so you will try mutec mc-3? its way to rich for me but it will be great knowing how it compares to breeze, puc2, ect!!!
  
 thanks for your dedication rb2013


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> RB2013, one thing to consider is the shoot out at CA was done in 2013.
> I think the XMOS chip is really the cause of the better SQ and maybe im wrong but the units in the CA shootout are too old to use XMOS.


 

 Well that's a good point and it was updated from time to time - the Berkeley is based on the XMOS - so maybe a ground breaker back then.
  
 I laugh - the iCore 7 4790 12GB DDR3 mem that I bought at Costco for $450 - would smoke the best $2000 PC from 2013.  In fact would smoke the best supercomputer from 1980.
  
 Like CPU technology - this DDC stuff is moving very fast.  As admitted to me recently  - the Audio Mag reviewers can not keep pace.


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> so you will try mutec mc-3? its way to rich for me but it will be great knowing how it compares to breeze, puc2, ect!!!
> 
> thanks for your dedication rb2013


 

 Yes by @Luckbad's good graces...Once the Q1-S arrives and is burnt in I will do a shootout between the F-1, X-1, Mutec, QS-1.
  
 I would rate the F-1 right now heads above, at a clear #1, over the PUC2 lite with a subjective score of 150+.  It's that good.  The X-1 tie with the PUC2 at 130ish.  It's $59.
  
 BTW the CA thread post above mentioned the Soulution 590 and the poster liked the Berkeley better.
  
 The 590 is $4000!
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/soulution-590#GwRZqbqSi5K4IeaR.97


----------



## hugoboss

i read ca several times they quick with dac technology news
 but usb technology not quite fast compare to headfi , it's the regen and the ifi iusb 3.0 that got hot at there.
  
 f1 xmos xcore 200 never mentioned at there (this is exclusive product from taobao china mainland)
 no even one distributor yet at euro, us,uk. so it wil never got popular at ca.
 also the price of simple unfinished is $150.
 i think it will never popular at ca.
 only aune (their cheap tube dac very popular) , audiogd (their dac even their power amp), cayin (tube amp very popular) brand that got a reputation in euro/ us/ uk as far as i remember till now.
 but if euro or us or uk brand got this x core 200 in their new product  line it will be a different story
  
  
 BUT If the rave keep going just like your post update everyday.
 i think the f1 seller at china will got BOOM sales.
 iam also ordered 1 already that little f1 still curious how will it compared to my ifi iusb 3 .
 i already very impressed with the ifi micro iusb 3.0.
 if they join force . that ifi iusb 3 plus dual head usb cable with separate power and data, plus f1 . i cant imagine the sound


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  Well I'll be curious as to your results with the F-1
> 
> Cheers!


 
  
 My config will be as follow:
  
 Intel NUC with a Sbooster Vbus2 isolator connected at USB port, totally disconnects the USB train from dirty 5v.
https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/sbooster-vbus-isolator
  
 El cheapo USB cable for data transport.
  
 Aqvox USB PSU
http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html
  
 Intona USB Isolator powered by the Aqvox.
  
 Supra USB cable to the F1 DDC.
  
 And finally Oehlbach coax cable from the F1 to my Hegels coax input.
  
 This should be a good solution and the final step in upgrading for now.
 But I have an eye open for the Pro4A also when it´s available in about two weeks.
  
 If this doesn´t play with better SQ than the old Pioneer DVD player over coax I will be dissapointed.


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> i read ca several times they quick with dac technology news
> but usb technology not quite fast compare to headfi , it's the regen and the ifi iusb 3.0 that got hot at there.
> 
> f1 xmos xcore 200 never mentioned at there (this is exclusive product from taobao china mainland)
> ...


 

 You are spot on!  They are simply hyper ventilating over the intona, before it was the Regen - at least for now.
  
 The curated Recovery thread was going well - until the thread flamers started in - chased old REShaman into seclusion.  Got to have a thick skin in this blogging game.  Since he left the thread has devolved into another intona thread - like my old U12 thread did.  Oh well it was time for that one to close-up - too many pages became to unwieldy.  Just re-hashing the same stuff. 
  
 So with these new guys - a perfect opportunity to start fresh.  You are right on these being a naked boards, but they are plug and play ready - just need a case - and a i2s socket if that's your poison.  Unlike some true DIY boards like the excellent Luckit WaveIO. http://luckit.biz
  
 The Gustard U12 did get a mention and a thread.  But you would think the XMOS 200 series update would be discussed? 
  
 Well maye the turn key Singxer SU-1 coming out in May will gain some attention.  For 300$ pretty sweet.  I do prefer the F-1, as it's power supply is more flexible and so can be upgraded easily, if not inexpensively.  Modding the SU-1 will likely require heavy duty PS mods like Alex did on the Melodious MX-U8.  But at least it has the Cyrstek CCHD clocks as std. - that's a PIA mod.
  

  
 Your iFi iUSB 3.0 and dual head USB cable should be a great match for the F-1.
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> My config will be as follow:
> 
> Intel NUC with a Sbooster Vbus2 isolator connected at USB port, totally disconnects the USB train from dirty 5v.
> https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/sbooster-vbus-isolator
> ...


 

 Nice!  I would consider a VBUS Blocker as well - Sbooster make a good one cheap.
  
 It should blow the DVD away!  Report what you find.
  
 Cheers





 
  
 PS It's looks like you have the VBUS blocker - just called it an isolator..


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  I would consider a VBUS Blocker as well - Sbooster make a good one cheap.
> 
> It should blow the DVD away!  Report what you find.
> 
> Cheers


 
 Yeah,VBUS blocker already on the way and will be here tomorrow.
 I wrote that but you propably just missed it.
  
 Will report my findings when I get the F1.
 If this setup doesn´t blow that DVD away I guess I have to take a look at W10, maybe driven from USB stick or USB HDD.
 Currenty using W7 MCE.
 I really don´t want to mess with a Dual Boot.
 Or maybe go wild and try Hackintosh on my NUC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Yeah,VBUS blocker already on the way and will be here tomorrow.
> I wrote that but you propably just missed it.
> 
> Will report my findings when I get the F1.
> ...


 

 Well if not there is always the 'gizmo' parade...Regen, Regen w/LPS, Recovery. Recovery w/LPS, Jitterbug, DC iPurifier, iPurifier2, iUSB 3.0, Schiit Wyred, Audience Rp1a, JS-2 LPS, etc...


----------



## gldgate

I have a Mutec MC-3 + USB and think it is a clear step up to my Breeze (with Talema transformer) with the Yggy. Have not heard PUC or Berkeley so can't provide any comparisons there. The galvanic isolation/reclocking appealed to me in addition to the DDC function. 
  
 The Breeze gave me a larger soundstage than the stock Yggy but the stock Yggy had tighter, more locked-in imaging. To my ears the Mutec gives me the best of both worlds.
  
 I also slightly prefer the Wyred Recovery to the Regen but overall impact of these USB doodads is pretty minimal in my system. I'm generally not a cable person but have to admit that I'm liking the  Curious cables (Regen link and full loom USB) over the combo I had before (Paul Pang link with Supra USB).
  
 Looking forward to ongoing F1 comparisons.


----------



## hugoboss

bad news,
 the taobao seller which i ordered f1 just told me he is run out of stock!
 he told me to wait for 2 week or 3 week for the second batch
 when i check his record already sold 11


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> bad news,
> the taobao seller which i ordered f1 just told me he is run out of stock!
> he told me to wait for 2 week or 3 week for the second batch
> when i check his record already sold 11


 

 Oh no!  I wanted to get a third one ordered - in case my mods failed and killed one.  I have two systems - one in my office.
 Well 2-3 weeks is not so bad.  For now.
  
 Once the word get out with other's feedback - I bet there will be a waiting list.


----------



## rb2013

*F-1 Review Update:*
  
 OK at the 145 hr mark  - again not a single unlock or freeze running 24/7 now for 6 days by either the X-1 or the F-1.
  
 It's still improving - noticing a bit more ease and flow to the music.  Tone gaining a touch more of richness and vibrancy - which was already pretty spectacular.  Dynamics continue to open up as well.
  
 So it looks like these will need at least 200 hrs to reach full potential
  
 Added the Regen to the X-1 playing in the office system - nice improvement!  A very noticeable gain in ease and musicality.  A pickup in dynamics as well.
  
 It seems both the X-1 and F-1 like the Regen and Recovery powered by a linear power supply.  In the case of the Regen using the 6in crappy USB connection (provided by Uptone) between the Regen and the X-1.  The hard adapter being used between the Recovery and the iPur2 that's connected to the F-1.
  
 That is until the Curious 200mm USB connector arrives - which should be in a week.
 http://www.curiouscables.com/buy.html
  

  
 Cheers!


----------



## hugoboss

by the way i also asked the seller about su-1
 i asked what kind of power supply inside the case?
 i bet it is talema. but he told me it is r-core transformer (he mentioned about r-core . i cant say 100 percent sure because of language barrier. i use gogle translate)
  
 this r-core do you think it is good as a power supply
  
 last i also ask f1 vs su-01 which is better? he told me su-1 is better


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> by the way i also asked the seller about su-1
> i asked what kind of power supply inside the case?
> i bet it is talema. but he told me it is r-core transformer (he mentioned about r-core . i cant say 100 percent sure because of language barrier. i use gogle translate)
> 
> ...


 

 Yes!  Awesome he's using an R-core - better noise suppression.  I bet he said that  - assuming you're referring to straight PC USB power to the F-1.  Versus the better PS in the SU-1.
  
 I highly doubt he is aware of the heroic power supply chains I'm using to feed the F-1 and the X-1.  Just to review the current data and PS chain I'm using:
  
 Data chain: - Paul Pang V2 TXCO PCI to USB card/iFi iPower 5VDC>Jitterbug modded to a VBUS blocker/ground pin severed as well (complete PC ground isolation)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data leg only - power disconnected)>W4S Recovery fed by an external LPS (see power chain)>Uptone hard USB adapter (soon to be replaced by the 200mm Curious)>iPurifier2>F-1
  
 Power supply to the ext power feed on the W4S Recovery:
 Teslaplex (wall socket)>Audience aR1p (line conditioner/rebalancer)>dedicated Art Audio PB 4X4Pro (common and differential mode AC line filter and isolation)>Cerious Tech Graphene Xtreme power cord>TeraDak DC-30W R-Core linear power supply (set to 7.5V)>DC iPurifier (significant PS noise filtering)>Recovery
  
 So as you can see this is not your Grandfather's data and PS chains.
 Note:  The Recovery DOES NOT need a PC USB power feed as was incorrectly reported on the CA Recovery thread.  I have the RevB board and it works just fine with complete power and ground decoupling from the PC (PPA V2 Card) USB.  In fact the modded VBUS blocker JB I have helped the SQ significantly  - so some sort of ground and power isolation from the PC USB is highly recommended!
  
  
 He seems to be a smart designer - wondering about the LDO's he is using?  Likely a different board then the F-1 to accommodate AES, WCLOCK, HDMI, etc...
 Well I will have to get a SU-1 as well.


----------



## hugoboss

yeah i also want su-1 but seeing the price double f1 . also i just need the coax output, the hdmi output doesn't compactible to audiogd dac, then f1 is enough to me hahahaha


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> yeah i also want su-1 but seeing the price double f1 . also i just need the coax output, the hdmi output doesn't compactible to audiogd dac, then f1 is enough to me hahahaha


 
 Me too- but I would like to compare anyway.  BTW you can make custom hdmi cable to work.  I remember on my old Gustard U12 thread someone mentioning that.  Check the Amanero thread.  Mybe someone makes a cable to adapt the different pinouts.
  
 It's a common problem in i2s land - no set stds.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Great info thanks!  I had a DAC with the Sabre 32 it had a hardness in SQ - but very detailed.  The Eastern Elec MiniMax Plus...




I have the same minimax plus and in my setup it sounds pretty much like the exact opposite of yours. With a discrete opamp and nos tube it's one of the smoothest Dacs I ever heard (if not 'the') ... but I heard more detailed ones. E.g. Alex's own "moster dac" had more detail. 
Btw abartels, I still think that you should name your Dac NoCo .. as in 'no compromise' . That power section is just amazing .. I seriously doubt that any comercial audio device on earth does more and/or better. If you manage to squeeze an rpi inside, you might have a buyer . And I only say 'might' cause I already have about 5 Dacs which arent bad at all. Otherwise, your 'monster' is an extraordinary Dac .. and highly recommemded by my old ears


----------



## Maxx134

hugoboss said:


> bad news,
> the taobao seller which i ordered f1 just told me he is run out of stock!
> he told me to wait for 2 week or 3 week for the second batch
> when i check his record already sold 11



How can he be sold out at 11 units?!
Maybe 110?

Anyways,
I been looking at enclosure for the F1:


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> How can he be sold out at 11 units?!
> Maybe 110?
> 
> Anyways,
> I been looking at enclosure for the F1:


 

 That is a really nice box - do you have a link.  Might want to order one.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Well if not there is always the 'gizmo' parade...Regen, Regen w/LPS, Recovery. Recovery w/LPS, Jitterbug, DC iPurifier, iPurifier2, iUSB 3.0, Schiit Wyred, Audience Rp1a, JS-2 LPS, etc...


 
 Yeah 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I am currently updating my system to W10.
 Have been taking a systembackup of my W7MCE installation.
 When I activated the W10 license I revert back to W7 again.
 Since I activated the W10 on my rig I can later do a clean install from scratch if I ever feel for it.
 I will loose the MCE functionality but seen a hack that enables MCE on W10.
 Maybe that would work for me and get better sound through W10 and still have MCE working.


----------



## motberg

hugoboss said:


> yeah i also want su-1 but seeing the price double f1 . also i just need the coax output, the hdmi output doesn't compactible to audiogd dac, then f1 is enough to me hahahaha


 

 I have had Melodius and Tanly modify their i2S outputs to work with Audio-GD, and had no problems.... so maybe these suppliers have developed a good understanding of what is required and you can be somewhat confident in ordering modified to suit your DAC...
  
 From memory, I would say most users who tried the Audio-GD i2S input option vs. the SPDIF preferred the i2S (or even the AES for that matter).


----------



## hugoboss

i dont have good solder skill , i know it can be modiifed but it need soldering the i2s board right changing the pin location.
 f1 is produced by a small company in china . maybe just a small diy company so iam sure the production is limited


----------



## panhead

Did find F1 on FLeabay:     http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-1-XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-Module-XU208-U8-upgraded-version-/111960639568?hash=item1a115fc850:g:UI0AAOSwAvJXBdC1
  
  
 Needless to say Im happy and cant wait for it to arrive!
  
 Many thanks RB2013!!!!!!


----------



## Caper

My order through freeshoppingchina is pending, got this answer about the delay:

Thank you for purchasing with us. 

After confirming with the purchaser assigned on your order, this item is still pending the seller now. This is not an out of the box item, and the seller needs some days to get it prepared. So we are still waiting for the seller to ship out. 

So it seems I have to wait longer than expected before it arrives.


----------



## Caper

*double post*


----------



## hugoboss

caper said:


> My order through freeshoppingchina is pending, got this answer about the delay:
> 
> Thank you for purchasing with us.
> 
> ...


 

 same like me mine got pending for 2 or 3 week
 just like i said this is small diy company from china that usually not prepare for a BOOM order suddenly
 the seller must surprised to see suddenly so many people buying f1


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> maxx134 said:
> 
> 
> > How can he be sold out at 11 units?!
> ...



There are many nice units on fleabay,
and not sure if this one will fit perfectly until I get exact measurements
From total length of the unit from tips of connectors..

Anyways here is a link:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=151649052697&alt=web


----------



## mhamel

panhead said:


> Did find F1 on FLeabay:     http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-1-XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-Module-XU208-U8-upgraded-version-/111960639568?hash=item1a115fc850:g:UI0AAOSwAvJXBdC1
> 
> 
> Needless to say Im happy and cant wait for it to arrive!
> ...


 
  
 I just ordered one as well. I'm actually looking for AES, but my DAC will detect/lock to a 75ohm SPDIF signal on the AES input, so I may not need to wait for the SU-1.


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> Did find F1 on FLeabay:     http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-1-XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-Module-XU208-U8-upgraded-version-/111960639568?hash=item1a115fc850:g:UI0AAOSwAvJXBdC1
> 
> 
> Needless to say Im happy and cant wait for it to arrive!
> ...


 
 Nice find!  Free shipping to - that saves money.
  


caper said:


> My order through freeshoppingchina is pending, got this answer about the delay:
> 
> Thank you for purchasing with us.
> 
> ...


 
 My second order is pending too.
  


hugoboss said:


> same like me mine got pending for 2 or 3 week
> just like i said this is small diy company from china that usually not prepare for a BOOM order suddenly
> the seller must surprised to see suddenly so many people buying f1


 
 Same happened to Breeze.  And DIYinHK sold out the Pro3a.
  


maxx134 said:


> There are many nice units on fleabay,
> and not sure if this one will fit perfectly until I get exact measurements
> From total length of the unit from tips of connectors..
> 
> ...


 
 The critical dimension is the 3 9/16" (91mm) approx as there are connectors on both ends.
  


mhamel said:


> I just ordered one as well. I'm actually looking for AES, but my DAC will detect/lock to a 75ohm SPDIF signal on the AES input, so I may not need to wait for the SU-1.


 
 Well that would be an interesting experiment - in terms of SQ.


----------



## rb2013

*Review Update F-1:*
  
 Well at the 175hrs mark and the F-1 is leveling out in terms of changes.  Just a very tiny bit better last night.  No unlocks or freezes this morning on the F-1, it's been almost a week of 24/7 non-stop playing without a hitch.  The X-1 did have an unlock last night - so I had to close and reopen Foobar this morning.  The F-1 is running on a WIN10 machine the X-1 on a WIN7.  Up until last night the X-1 ran perfectly for 24/7 for days.  It could also be the addition of the Regen to the X-1 chain.  Anyway not a big deal - but I wanted to report that.
  
 Otherwise just glorious sound - again digging way deep in my recordings archive - Some Leon Russell, Leo Kotke, Dave Mathews.  Oh Dave!  Haven't heard 'Some Devil' in a long time - never sounded this good!  Great fun listening to old favorites with a fresh presentation - small new details revealed.  The Leon Russell albums never particularly well recorded - just as smooth as can be, realism, like he was there with his piano in my listening room. 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Well that would be an interesting experiment - in terms of SQ.


 
  
 Yes, I'm interested to see how it will affect it, if at all. 
  
 I've also got a custom cable coming, Mogami W2964 with Neutrik NC3MXX-B XLR and NF2CB/2 connectors.


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> There are many nice units on fleabay,
> and not sure if this one will fit perfectly until I get exact measurements
> From total length of the unit from tips of connectors..
> 
> ...


 

Looking at this box a little closer in might be about a 1/4" long - but worst case you could leave one side plate off, or drill it large enough so the head of a USB cable/adapter could fit in.
  
 Sorry I remeasured the F-1 board with a better ruler and it's 99cmx49cmx25cm
  
 I will order one. Wonder if it comes with any mounting hardware.
  
 These little guys work great - they're 8cm long.


----------



## Maxx134

Those enclosures are supposed to be able to slide the board in without mounting hardware 

Will see though


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> Those enclosures are supposed to be able to slide the board in without mounting hardware
> 
> Will see though


 

 I remeasured just the board and it's 99cm x 49cm - I had a large crappy ruler before and since it was already mounted in my make shift case - no room to get the ruler inside,  So I had to eyeball it.  I found a better small metric ruler.
  
 Those measurements are for the board only not the connectors that stickout


----------



## rb2013

Box Dimensions(Outer): 100mm(3.94")(L)* 69mm(2.72")(W)*24mm(0.94")
  
 So it may be the perfect length - but looks like it's too wide to just slide in.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> I just ordered one as well. I'm actually looking for AES, but my DAC will detect/lock to a 75ohm SPDIF signal on the AES input, so I may not need to wait for the SU-1.


 

 Which DAC?
  
 My FreeShoppingChina.com status just went to 'on the way'  so I guess at least these will be sent out soon.


----------



## lateboomer

Is su-1 using same board as f1? Because I see su-1 has AES output which f1 doesn't have one. If I buy f1 which is cheaper but want to add AES output, how should I do it? From the img attached, it seems f1 is pretty straight forward to use, just connect pc usb to the usb input, and coaxial output from the board to dac, that is it, am I right? I am drooling on this f1 because it is very hard to wrap around the idea that this simple board setup can beat 30k analog rig, which sounds as good as getting "Nobel price" for audio.
  
 Even my digital rig which consists of clean powered Intel NUC as renderer with fiber optic connection, still loses out little bit to a 20k Synthesis Roma cd player. But here this f1 can make you forgetting about 30k analog rig. That is unbelievable.


----------



## rb2013

I just noticed that box is not a split design - it would make drilling holes and screwing in the risers almost impossible.  So I canceled and ordered one each of these - both split boxes:
  
  
 Dimensions(Outer): 100mm (3.94") (L)* 71mm (2.80") (W)* 25mm (0.98")
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/151333065047?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


  
  
 And this one a little longer:
 Dimensions(Outer): 25mm(0.98")(H)x62mm(2.44")(W)x110mm(4.33")(L)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/161414428256?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Which DAC?
> 
> My FreeShoppingChina.com status just went to 'on the way'  so I guess at least these will be sent out soon.


 
  
 Dangerous Music Convert-2
  
 http://dangerousmusic.com/product/convert-2/
  
 I've also got a Yggy which is now up for sale.


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> Is su-1 using same board as f1? Because I see su-1 has AES output which f1 doesn't have one. If I buy f1 which is cheaper but want to add AES output, how should I do it? From the img attached, it seems f1 is pretty straight forward to use, just connect pc usb to the usb input, and coaxial output from the board to dac, that is it, am I right? I am drooling on this f1 because it is very hard to wrap around the idea that this simple board setup can beat 30k analog rig, which sounds as good as getting "Nobel price" for audio.
> 
> Even my digital rig which consists of clean powered Intel NUC as renderer with fiber optic connection, still loses out little bit to a 20k Synthesis Roma cd player. But here this f1 can make you forgetting about 30k analog rig. That is unbelievable.


 

 Yeah - I'm pretty blown away as well.  But you have to count the $1200 worth of PS and Data chains to - this kind of performance is literally cutting edge - so it does require extreme care in power and data feeds.
  
 And don't forget the DAC cost as well
 But still!
  
 Yes it is just plug and play - AES is the proaudio version of SPDIF - it is better but by a small degree.  And you can connect i2s if you are inclined to run it that way. And may give some even better performance depending on their DAC.
  
 The SU-1 will like have a larger board to accommodate the surface mounted HDMI, WCLOCK, AES, etc..  what other goodies?  I haven't seen one - no one has - yet.  But for $300 it's half the price of the Tanly - so there is that - and has the new XU208.
  
 Look I;m not saying this will be the last stop for this train - I'm sure by years end there will be a wide variety of these devices.  What impresses me about both the F-1, X-1 and the yet to arrive Q1-S.  Is they did not skimp on the clocks - they were smart enough to design around the best.  Before the Tanly was the only Chinese DDC that had the better Crystek clocks - all the others had to be modded.  Now of course the Berkeley and the Hydra Z had these better CCHD clocks - but at what price?
  
 Still not sure what Empirical is using in the OR5 - I know they charge $700+ on top of the $1299 base price for the 'dual turbo clock' upgrade! 
 http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/off-ramp-converter
  
 PS - and the modding hasn't even begun yet!  I just ordered a third f-1 for that purpose.
 PSS - The Pro3a did have the NDK SD clocks - so two Chinese had the better clocks.  One other note the LPS i'm using is 'just' a TeraDak!  Once I determine the final configuration - a Hynes LPS will probably be added.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Dangerous Music Convert-2
> 
> http://dangerousmusic.com/product/convert-2/
> 
> I've also got a Yggy which is now up for sale.


 

 Sweet!  Bet that was expensive.  Does it have a naivte USB input?


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Sweet!  Bet that was expensive.  Does it have a naivte USB input?


 
  
 It does - XMOS-based USB input, 2x AES/SPDIF (auto-sensing), and Optical. It wil also route one of the AES inputs back to the PC as digital in.
  
 Price-wise it's competitive with the Yggy - factory set "street price" is $2499.


----------



## lateboomer

Cool. I will try to order f1 by tomorrow. Is there a faster route? The ebay link? I have got few audio jewelry to help out f1 to achieve its best, there are 2 regens, one green and one amber, 2 jitterbugs, 1 Wyred4Sound Remedy, cabledyne silver usb cable and furutech usb cable. Also I have enough LPS to boot. 
  
 To achieve vblocker function and connecting data line only to Regen, I can put small paper strip to cut out ground and vbus lines at usb connectors? Green and amber Regen, which one is supposed better? I read some measurement objectivists saying amber has design flaw at grounding which gives illusion of better base but I am not fully understand.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Which DAC?
> 
> My FreeShoppingChina.com status just went to 'on the way'  so I guess at least these will be sent out soon.


 
 Same here.
  
 I guess your writings about that little board has made the producer scratch his head why it sells so good


----------



## sealykojac

You can buy the X-1 on Ebay as well from the same seller. I just ordered one as I need another usb to spdif and didn't want to drop $180.
  
 X-1: http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-1-XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-Module-/111960651117?


----------



## rb2013

sealykojac said:


> You can buy the X-1 on Ebay as well from the same seller. I just ordered one as I need another usb to spdif and didn't want to drop $180.
> 
> X-1: http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-1-XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-Module-/111960651117?


 

 It's a really great sounding DDC as well.  How can you beat $69?  With NDK SD clocks!


----------



## rb2013

From the Ebay ad on the F-1 (looks to be the same for the X-1):
  
 I2S signal output socket Description:
 1, MUTE is high mute; the DSD data stream DSD_ON high level;
 2. All electrical average LVCMOS, voltage of 3.3V;
 3, VD3.3 output power, low output current 50mA;
 4, MCLK clock output 22.5792Mhz or 24.576Mhz;
 5, FS0, FS1, FS2 is sampling rate indicator level, but FS3 not;
  
 6, LRCLK = DSDR, SDATA = DSDL, BCLK = DCLK.


----------



## lateboomer

rb2013 said:


> What impresses me about both the F-1, X-1 and the yet to arrive Q1-S.  Is they did not skimp on the clocks -


 
 I can't find any info about Q1-S accept the first page of thread. Is F-1 the highest spec, 2nd is X-1 and last is Q1-S?


----------



## hugoboss

if looking from the price the ranking is here
  
 1. f-1 (999 yuan) 4 layer board with crystek clock
 2. x-1 (369 yuan) 4 layer board with ndk clock
 3. q-1s (239 yuan) 2 layer board with ndk clock
  
 the su-1 is 1999 yuan
  
 today teh seller update something in his shop about f1
Buy F-1 is currently more people, tight inventories;
Usually after payment, 3-5 days before delivery, we will be in accordance with the payment has shipped;
The inconvenience caused to you, please forgive me
 
its gogle translate
hahahaha he said to forgive him as many people buying but the stock is limited


----------



## rb2013

Got this message from the F-1 Ebay seller:
  


> thanks for you order my product,
> sorry to tell you that,the factory told me that this unit is hot these days,
> so they are producing now,it will be available on 15th this week,it means that i will send this unit to you next week,is ok?
> i will send it to you by DHL,you can receive it within 2-4 working days
> ...


 
 Wonder why?


----------



## hugoboss

rb2013 said:


> Got this message from the F-1 Ebay seller:
> 
> Wonder why?


 
  
 why why?
 because of you bro hahahahaha
 when you said this is the best experience in your audio years of hearing!
 also i can said this is the first ddc that use x-mos 200. the pioneer is from china!


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> I can't find any info about Q1-S accept the first page of thread. Is F-1 the highest spec, 2nd is X-1 and last is Q1-S?


 
 Yes hugoboss has it correct.
  
 The thing I like about the Q1-S is the Murata SPDIF transformer - about the best there is.
  


hugoboss said:


> if looking from the price the ranking is here
> 
> 1. f-1 (999 yuan) 4 layer board with crystek clock
> 2. x-1 (369 yuan) 4 layer board with ndk clock
> ...


 
 Like I said as the word spreads...these will be in short supply.
  
 Wait until we get a few of these in other's hands - assuming they like it as much as me - and then the CA folks get wind.
  
 Should be interesting.
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> why why?
> because of you bro hahahahaha
> when you said this is the best experience in your audio years of hearing!
> also i can said this is the first ddc that use x-mos 200. the pioneer is from china!


 

 Yea - isn't that amazing - from China of all places.


----------



## rb2013

Sold out on Ebay!
  
 F-1 XMOS USB Digital Interface Module XU208 U8 upgraded version 
 
  
 Seller information *wsz0304* (6602 ) 


 99.3% Positive feedback


 Follow this seller


 Visit store:




 shenzhenAudioStore

See other items








 Item condition:​ New

Quantity:​
  0 available / 10 sold



Price:​
*US $179.99*


----------



## rb2013

Here are the close-up shots of the Q-1S.  NDK SD clocks - $39.  The clocks alone cost $25.


----------



## lateboomer

I just pulled the trigger for F-1 from this ebay seller wsz0304. It is more expensive than taobao but I have not used taobao before, so I have no confidence to buy from them.
  
 But funny in taobao it says it has 87 F-1 in the stock, so I don't see why your guys need to wait for 2-3 weeks.


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> I just pulled the trigger for F-1 from this ebay seller wsz0304. It is more expensive than taobao but I have not used taobao before, so I have no confidence to buy from them.
> 
> But funny in taobao it says it has 87 F-1 in the stock, so I don't see why your guys need to wait for 2-3 weeks.


 

 The Ebay seller is Shenzen Audio - they were the guys I bought the 1st Melodious MX-U8 from.
  
 They must have bought a dozen boards then listed them.  But the ad now says sold out.  And I bought one of the 10 available this morning.  Then I got the above message that they won't be available until next week -but he will ship 2 day DHL for free.
  
 Good guy!
  
 Just did a check over on CA and no threads yet on the Singxer F-1, X-1, XU208 or XMOS 200.  If anyone spots one let me know  - I cringe -  but do find the flame throwers there fun to read.
  
 Ps BTW - this thread is only 10 days old and already has over 5,000 views and is 12 pages with 168 posts.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> The Ebay seller is Shenzen Audio - they were the guys I bought the 1st Melodious MX-U8 from.
> 
> They must have bought a dozen boards then listed them.  But the ad now says sold out.  And I bought one of the 10 available this morning.  Then I got the above message that they won't be available until next week -but he will ship 2 day DHL for free.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I got the same message - I bought mine last night when he was showing 9 left.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> I got the same message - I bought mine last night when he was showing 9 left.


 

 He must be just taking orders - then goes and buys them for $157.


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> Cool. I will try to order f1 by tomorrow. Is there a faster route? The ebay link? I have got few audio jewelry to help out f1 to achieve its best, there are 2 regens, one green and one amber, 2 jitterbugs, 1 Wyred4Sound Remedy, cabledyne silver usb cable and furutech usb cable. Also I have enough LPS to boot.
> 
> To achieve vblocker function and connecting data line only to Regen, I can put small paper strip to cut out ground and vbus lines at usb connectors? Green and amber Regen, which one is supposed better? I read some measurement objectivists saying amber has design flaw at grounding which gives illusion of better base but I am not fully understand.


 
 Yes tape will work.
  
 Looks like you have the whole gizmo parade!  Your in for a great time.
  
 The Green was the first run of Regens - the Amber is supposed to be better.
  
 One reason the Regen (and the Recovery) works so well feeding the F-1 and X-1:


> The REGEN has two expensive, ultra-low noise adjustable voltage regulators (the wonderful TI TPS7A4700), one for 3.3V for the USB hub chip, and one for 5V for forwarding clean VBUS to the DAC for those that require it.
> Linear regulators require that the input voltage be a little higher than the voltage you want them to regulate to.  But the difference between whatever voltage level you feed then and the output voltage they are set for must be dissipated as heat.  The REGEN is in a small enclosure and there is not a heat-sink on the regulators—therefore we must consider that. So although the regulator chips we use can take up to 20V, the drops down to 5V or 3.3V are quite large.  For the 3.3V to run the hub chip and low jitter clock, it really is not a problem no matter the voltage since that part of the REGEN draws almost no current.


----------



## lateboomer

If you say wsz0304 is a good guy, then it is a relief from me, as this is first time I buy from him. Touch wood and so far I haven't encountered any issues for items that I bought from ebay or amazon.


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> If you say wsz0304 is a good guy, then it is a relief from me, as this is first time I buy from him. Touch wood and so far I haven't encountered any issues for items that I bought from ebay or amazon.


 

 Well to pick up the tab on 2 day DHL from Hong Kong to the US is not cheap.  We'll see when it's actually gets here.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> He must be just taking orders - then goes and buys them for $157.


 
  
  
 Hahahah, could be.  He's got it re-listed now with 50 available.


----------



## murphythecat

likely a very stupid question, but can I use the f-1 xmos if my dac only accept mini-Toslink?


----------



## hugoboss

f-1 only have 1 output it is coax. rca type coax
 if u want more output try su-1


----------



## motberg

mhamel said:


> It does - XMOS-based USB input, 2x AES/SPDIF (auto-sensing), and Optical. It wil also route one of the AES inputs back to the PC as digital in.
> 
> Price-wise it's competitive with the Yggy - factory set "street price" is $2499.


 

 From the reviews, seems like an imaging/tonality monster.... please post your impressions after you have some time with it.. Thanks...


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> lateboomer said:
> 
> 
> > I just pulled the trigger for F-1 from this ebay seller wsz0304. It is more expensive than taobao but I have not used taobao before, so I have no confidence to buy from them.
> ...


 
  
 Back in 2007 I started to buy from WSZ0304 which is hosted by Wang shuzeng. He's a very trustful seller and communicates in a proper, timely, manner.
 Bought 15 dac's and about 20 pcb's from him and some other stuff (230V Mains connectors) which he went shopping for me in China hahaha


----------



## sbgk

I've order an F-1 and got the following message 
  
"sorry to tell you that,the factory told me that this unit is hot these days,
so they are producing now,it will be available on 15th this week,it means that i will send this unit to you next week"
  
  
I want to make a hdmi cable to take i2s from the F-1 to a Gustard X12, do you think that will be possible ? 
  
Looked at the I2s connection diagrams for the F-1 and the X12 and was a bit confused as they didn't seem to match up.


----------



## audioelements

Right. the ebay seller wsz0304 is the shenzhenaudio.com. He has an audio store in Shenzhen China, thus if you call, sometime it would be a lady speaking on the phone. I talked to him when I tried to figure out the compatibility issue for my Melodious MX-U8 with Linux. He is an accountable businessman and also an audiophile.
  
 The Melodious MX-U8 works nicely with foobar in Windows 7. But I have an eco-system for streaming music based on Linux boxes - Cubietrucks, raspberry Pi+wolfson DAC, etc. I use linear PS for these small board.
  
 Now I am selling my barely used Melodious MX-U8 ultimate (v1.7 with the new enclosure). Any member interested in it, please PM me. I haven't put anything up for sale on Head-Fi before. If it is not allowed to post sale here, I will remove the post. Thanks!


----------



## audioelements

I ordered a F-1 yesterday, and got the same message. The new batch is available in a week. I just cross my fingers wish it would compatible to my Linux systems.


----------



## Caper

MiY F1 has arrived at freeshoppingchina but they don´t conduct parcels during weekends.
 Guess they send it next week.


----------



## audioelements

Would anyone do me a big favor - test if the F-1 compatible with Linux system? say, any Linux on ARM-chip based single board computer or Daphile on intel based computer? Much appreciated.


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> From the reviews, seems like an imaging/tonality monster.... please post your impressions after you have some time with it.. Thanks...


 
 +1
  


abartels said:


> Back in 2007 I started to buy from WSZ0304 which is hosted by Wang shuzeng. He's a very trustful seller and communicates in a proper, timely, manner.
> Bought 15 dac's and about 20 pcb's from him and some other stuff (230V Mains connectors) which he went shopping for me in China hahaha


 
 +1  Although my Melodious MX-U8 (actually 2 of 3) had major issues.  Constant unlocking, ticks, pops, static, I could not return them due to the 7 day return policy (which was after they had arrived).  This was done directly - not through Ebay.  Better to have the Buyer Protection of Ebay.  That's where my make shift case came from - a defunct Melodious.
  


sbgk said:


> I've order an F-1 and got the following message
> 
> "sorry to tell you that,the factory told me that this unit is hot these days,
> so they are producing now,it will be available on 15th this week,it means that i will send this unit to you next week"
> ...


 
 A custom cable can be made to align the pins configurations.
  


audioelements said:


> I ordered a F-1 yesterday, and got the same message. The new batch is available in a week. I just cross my fingers wish it would compatible to my Linux systems.


 
 From the F-1 Ebay ad:


> System Compatibility:
> 1, Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows 8; 32/64 bit, you need to install special drivers
> 2, Native MacOS 10.6 and later, using the system comes with drivers
> 3, Native Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel, using the system comes with drivers
> 4, Android OS 4.2 and above, the need to support OTG function.


 
  


caper said:


> MiY F1 has arrived at freeshoppingchina but they don´t conduct parcels during weekends.
> Guess they send it next week.


 
 Nice!


----------



## rb2013

Mine are in at FreeshoppingChina.com - so should be shipped next week.
  
 New ad on Ebay - already 67 views:
 F-1 XMOS USB Digital Interface Module XU208 U8 upgraded version 




*67 viewed per day*


 
  | Add to watch list

 Seller information *wsz0304* (6602 ) 


 99.3% Positive feedback


 Follow this seller


 Visit store:




 shenzhenAudioStore

See other items








 Item condition:​ New

Quantity:​
  More than 10 available / 2 sold


----------



## audioelements

Thanks rb2013. I value your rating for those converters, that is why I bought a F-1, ha ha.
  
 I talked to the designer, Mr. Chen at singxer.com, today. He said that the firmware is written by himself/his team. He mentioned that the official (default) XMOS firmware had limited performances and was a little buggy. The firmware of his F-1 is able to upgrade in the future via a program with a USB cable. The xilinx CPLD* *chip for isolation is programmed, but there is no option to upgrade that chip.
  
 I do hope the compatibility statement on their website is true.
  
 Before I purchased the Melodious MX-U8, I also contacted the designer. He told me that it will be compatible with Linux, but he was a little hesitated when he said so. He said that it should, but most his customers in China were using Windows. Once I got it, I have tried several Linux systems, Intel core based laptops, ARM based single board computer. none was compatible. It was not click sounds or drop music. It seems halted right during the booting of Linux - the DSD light lighted up, even I unplug the USB cable. I have the MX-U8 newest version 1.7. It is pitiful because it sounded very good with Windows.


----------



## riffer

rb2013 said:


> Mine are in at FreeshoppingChina.com - so should be shipped next week.
> 
> New ad on Ebay - already 67 views:
> F-1 XMOS USB Digital Interface Module XU208 U8 upgraded version
> ...


 

 Lol!  I was one of them.  I'm itching to pull the trigger.


----------



## rb2013

audioelements said:


> Thanks rb2013. I value your rating for those converters, that is why I bought a F-1, ha ha.
> 
> I talked to the designer, Mr. Chen at singxer.com, today. He said that the firmware is written by himself/his team. He mentioned that the official (default) XMOS firmware had limited performances and was a little buggy. The firmware of his F-1 is able to upgrade in the future via a program with a USB cable. The xilinx CPLD* *chip for isolation is programmed, but there is no option to upgrade that chip.
> 
> ...


 
 Good to hear - yes why i'm staying with WIN10 and SPDIF.  Good luck!
  


riffer said:


> Lol!  I was one of them.  I'm itching to pull the trigger.


 
 Nice!


----------



## seeteeyou

sbgk said:


> I've order an F-1 and got the following message
> 
> "sorry to tell you that,the factory told me that this unit is hot these days,
> so they are producing now,it will be available on 15th this week,it means that i will send this unit to you next week"
> ...


 
  
 I didn't know Gordon would check this thread out here, just a plug for his fantastic MQn as follows
  
 http://mqnplayer.blogspot.com
 http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2418
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/657920/mqn-minimalist-wasapi-wav-c-memory-player-integrated-with-foobar2000
  
 MQn minimalist PC music player - The king of sound quality
 http://grizzlyaudio.blogspot.com/2015/08/mqn-minimalist-pc-music-player-king-of.html
  
 MQn latest version
 https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B3vvH5WBfg8PdlZmeDhNZ1Utbm8&usp=sharing
  
 MQn setup
 http://randytsuch-audio.blogspot.com/2015/10/mqn-setup.html
  
  
 Here's the I2S pin assignment of Gustard X12
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.html?id=18012850492


----------



## hugoboss

@rb2013
  
 there is a new f1 driver link for download in taobao seller page
 https://pan.baidu.com/share/init?shareid=2571483956&uk=453716408
  
 but it require password to download
 can you ask the seller what is the password.
  
 thanks
  
 would need you to compare again this new driver performance


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> @rb2013
> 
> 
> there is a new f1 driver link for download in taobao seller page
> ...


I'll ask my buying agent for the password, he got it for me last time.


----------



## hugoboss

like you said the new xmos moving so fast . diynhk already released their own xmos xcore 200 chipset 16 cores but it's diy board
*XMOS 768kHz DXD DSD512(DSD1024) high-quality USB to I2S/DSD PCB* *World's first Real 768k USB to I2S/DSD PCB for audiophile Diyer to enjoy!*
*dsd 1024 waow*
  
 The Xmos used in this pcb is* XU216 2000MIPS and it contains two tile. It is equal to two XU208 combined in one chip*, one dedicated tile is used for the USB data and the other tile is dedicated to process the audio data with the DAC.
 This PCB uses linear regulator and it do not have onchip/onboard DC-DC switching converter. It is power hungry(due to linear regulator) but it should favour many people who do not like to use DC-DC convertor.
 The xmos in this PCB is clocked directly from 45.158Mhz and 49.152Mhz audio oscillator, *the timing and jitter is at less two times better than PCB uses 22.5792MHz 24.576Mhz audio oscillator.*
  

  
  
 it claim double the f1 1000mips to 2000mips and using ndk crystal clock it cost us89.5
  
 1) *Newest XMOS XCORE-200 2000MIPS 2 Tiles 16 Cores upto 2000MIPS in dual issue mode*
 2) *4 layer PCB*, Solid ground plane (a must for high speed digital circuit)
 3) *NDK NZ2520SD Ultra low phase noise oscillator *and Murata capacitor sourced from Japan directly (guarantee no fake product from China)
 According to the official datasheet, *the phase noise of NZ2520SD is much better than the famous crystek 957 under 25khz(human listenable range)*
 For easier comparsion(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better.
 4) Dedicated I2C port for the OLED VU meter display to avoid using the same I2C port control the DAC/ADC chip(if needed) which can causes interference to the DAC/ADC chip (common fault in most design on the market)
 5) OLED display is the latest technology with highest contrast, complete dark background, full viewing angle and it looks much better than the commonly used LCD display.
 6) Full copper one piece housing, gold plated(not cheaper gold flash) high quality Molex USB connector.
 7) Compact size 50mm x 50mm
 8) *PCB is powered by external **3.3V(800mA max. 400mA typ.) regulated supply*, it is usually connected to the same 3.3v digital power DAC is using(warning: over-voltage or reverse-voltage can damage the xmos chip immediately, double check before power on)
  
  
 damn to fast now. can you imagine 16core only for usb
 also it claims ndk is more better than crystek
  
 i hope u got your damaged dxiopro board replaced with this thing!
 if you see cleary seems like diynhk want to beat the singxer face to face . with its spec claim. (double the xmos xcore 208)
  
  
 now we just wait if diynhk will released a finished product like dxiopro 4a to compete with f1, or maybe even su-1
 gonna be interesting!
  
 now melodius, breeze, gustard where is your xmos 200 product . it's hot now!
*we can said now 2016 is the year of USB AUDIOPHILE EVOLUTION*


----------



## abartels

hugoboss said:


> like you said the new xmos moving so fast . diynhk already released their own xmos xcore 200 chipset 16 cores but it's diy board
> *XMOS 768kHz DXD DSD512(DSD1024) high-quality USB to I2S/DSD PCB* *World's first Real 768k USB to I2S/DSD PCB for audiophile Diyer to enjoy!*
> *dsd 1024 waow*
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wonder why they didn't use the XU232 with 32 cores


----------



## hugoboss

yeah xmos 32 cores it think some people will buy it even it cost double the 16 core
 after 32 core etc etc etc is there any excuse like "poor usb computer"
 i think usb will beat i2s connection in the future
 so lets just hope someday it happen. if usb can beat i2s (hdmi or rj45)
 we dont have to buy any converter , any *** converter whatever lets hope!


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> like you said the new xmos moving so fast . diynhk already released their own xmos xcore 200 chipset 16 cores but it's diy board
> *XMOS 768kHz DXD DSD512(DSD1024) high-quality USB to I2S/DSD PCB*
> 
> *World's first Real 768k USB to I2S/DSD PCB for audiophile Diyer to enjoy!*
> ...


This is different then the Pro4a, it uses 16 core, 8 for USB conversion, 8 cores for the DAC conversion. The new XMOS 200 series has the ability to do Digital Audio Conversion. So it's basically a one solution digital source on a single board.

They continue to misread the NDK chart on the comparison between the SD and the Crystek CCHD-957. The 957 has better phase noise over 2500Hz, not 25KHz. They're mireading the log freq scale.


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> yeah xmos 32 cores it think some people will buy it even it cost double the 16 core
> after 32 core etc etc etc is there any excuse like "poor usb computer"
> i think usb will beat i2s connection in the future
> so lets just hope someday it happen. if usb can beat i2s (hdmi or rj45)
> we dont have to buy any converter , any *** converter whatever lets hope!


USB is a different conversiin then the one i2s handles. So the need for either a separate DDC or an internal one, usually on a separate board. The DDC can output the processed digital stream as either SPDIF or i2s. Usually both. I2S was developed as an internal connect, inside a CD player, between the transport (cd spinner), and DAC board. It was made for very short cables, inches, not feet.


----------



## rb2013

This DIYinHK board does both the DDC and DAC digital conversion on one board! In one chip! Now the question is - how good of a sounding DAC these new XMOS 200 chips will be. I'm more interested in the XMOS for USB conversion, then DAC conversion. But who knows.


----------



## rb2013




----------



## hugoboss

do you mean this little board already have dac onboard?
 so it can stright playing any music files from pc or laptop.
 if so then it wil be great


----------



## abartels

Nope


rb2013 said:


> This DIYinHK board does both the DDC and DAC digital conversion on one board! In one chip! Now the question is - how good of a sounding DAC these new XMOS 200 chips will be. I'm more interested in the XMOS for USB conversion, then DAC conversion. But who knows.


 
  
 Hmm, it doesn't have a dac inside.
  
 One die (tile) with 8 cores is used for USB signal handling
  
 AND
  
 One die (tile) with 8 cores is used to handle digital audio processing, which means: conversion to SPDIF and I2S
  
 XU216 has 2 die's (tiles) . or wafers, in one chip, and in total 16 cores - 8 per die (tile, wafer)


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> do you mean this little board already have dac onboard?
> so it can stright playing any music files from pc or laptop.
> if so then it wil be great


 

 Well it's confusing as they mention:  From the DIYinHK ad you posted:
  


> XU216 2000MIPS and it contains two tile. It is equal to two XU208 combined in one chip, one dedicated tile is used for the USB data and the other tile is dedicated t*o process the audio data with the DAC.*


 
 The new 200 Series have audio processing capabilites:
  
 http://www.xmos.com/products/silicon/xcore-audio
  


> HIGH RESOLUTION AUDIO FOR CONSUMER PRODUCTS
> xCORE-AUDIO processors deliver high resolution audio connectivity, with dedicated audio processing and audio specific I/O, and class-leading USB Audio Class 2.0 endpoints. Built on the performance leading xCORE-200 multicore microcontroller technology, the processors meet the demands of high-resolution consumer audio applications
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

So the XMOS Xcore 200 have the ability to output analog (that is what a DAC does convert digital to analog), but also output I2S, SPDIF, DSD/DoP.
  
 It also looks like it can accept a SPDIF digital input.
  
 So the question is what is on that flat cable pin output.  I bet analog outputs, SPDIF inputs.  But better performance to 768kHz (kinda ridiculus at this level which 2 times DxD) to a AKM 4495.
  
  
 Anyway - maybe this could also be the precursor in the new XMOS speed, cores wars! And what the Pro4a will be based on. One issue is going to be the extra power draw from 16 cores vs 8 cores.
  


> PCB is powered by external 3.3V(800mA max. 400mA typ.) regulated supply, it is usually connected to the same 3.3v digital power DAC is using(warning: over-voltage or reverse-voltage can damage the xmos chip immediately, double check before power on)


----------



## rb2013

Hi-Res 2 DAC/HPA platform _XK-USB-AUDIO-HPA_ 



Multichannel Audio platform _XK-AUDIO-216-MC-AB_ 



Multi-Function Audio platform _XK-USB-AUDIO-U8-2C-AB_ 




 
xCORE-AUDIO processor
Stereo high resolution channels out
PCM ≤384kHz at 16, 24 or 32bits
Native DSD64 and DSD128
DoP64 and DoP128
Asynchronous Isochronous transfer

  


XE-200 multicore microcontroller
Multi channel analog in and out
S/PDIF optical/coaxial in and out
PCM ≤384kHz at 16, 24 or 32bits
Native DSD64 and DSD128
DoP64 and DoP128
Asynchronous Isochronous transfer

  





xCORE-200 Multichannel Audio Platform (MFi: Host Mode | USB Role Switch)
_XK-AUDIO-216-MC-ABL_

XS1-USB multicore microcontroller
Stereo analog in and out
S/PDIF out, ≤192kHz, 16, 24 bits
Native DSD64 and DSD128
DoP64 and DoP128
Asynchronous Isochronous transfer
MFi developer boards

  




Multi-Function Audio platform
 (MFi Host Mode)
_XK-USB-AUDIO-U8-2C-BLC_
Multi-Function Audio platform
 (MFi: USB Role Switch)
_XK-USB-AUDIO-U8-2C-ABC_
  
  


 More on *XMOS  Xcore 200 Audio:*
*http://www.xmos.com/products/usb-audio/hi-res-audio/solutions*
  
*They actually list Xcore USB 2000 with 'audio analog' outputs*


----------



## Caper

My F1 will be shipped out any minute now.
 Does it comes with any driver?
 If not, can I use the same driver as I do with the "baby breeze" ?


----------



## garson

I've asked Breeze Audio if they have plans to implement new XMOS XU208m, they said Yes, it should be out soon.


----------



## ccschua

hi, is it possible to put the driver download at the first page sticky?
  
 just receive and yet to get the driver.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> My F1 will be shipped out any minute now.
> Does it comes with any driver?
> If not, can I use the same driver as I do with the "baby breeze" ?


 
 Yes it does - but seems to work fine with the Breeze 3.29 driver as well.  Looks like it needs no 'driver handshake' like Gustard U12.  In fact both S-1 and X-1 work. Open install!  Nice!  These signed drivers are a pain.
  
 Just paid for my shipping - EMS the second F-1, X-1 and Q1-S in one package.  I noticed some changes in the second X-1 - notably a Murata transformer for SPDIF.
  


garson said:


> I've asked Breeze Audio if they have plans to implement new XMOS XU208m, they said Yes, it should be out soon.


 
 More the merry!  Better clocks this time?  I sure hope so.  I think Singxer and DIYinHK have raised the bar to NDK SD or Crystek CCHD.  Enough of those $5 JYEC OEM TXCO's!!!


----------



## rb2013

So here are the pics of the 'new' X-1 with Murata:


----------



## rb2013

The $39 Q1-S looks to have the Murata - but just XO clocks?
  
 Actually look like the clock used in the Regen:


----------



## abartels

LOOK!!!
  
 another USB optimizer miracle in the making!
  
 http://ideonaudio.com/3r-usb.html


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> LOOK!!!
> 
> another USB optimizer miracle in the making!
> 
> http://ideonaudio.com/3r-usb.html


 

 Oh no another USB gizmo.
  
 This sounds awfully familiar - exception better spelled:
  


> *REGENERATE and RECLOCING*  via low-jitter clock with dedicate   ultra low noise suplly power .*the result is incredibly improved sound !! *​


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Nope
> 
> Hmm, it doesn't have a dac inside.
> 
> ...


 

 But I thought that is what the 1000MIPS XU208 USB did?  Is 1000MIPS not enough processing power?  Oh Wait this one will do 784kHz - but what's the point??
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I suppose it can handle 1024 DSD 16X but again for what end? 
  
 I would love to be able to buy new releases from popular artists at 24bit 96k - not some phony upsampled 16bit 44k ones - then be charged $24 for a $8 CD.
  
 I have the excellent Steinberg WaveLas 6.0 - it has the ablility to make these upsampled files using it's 'Crystal upsamplers'  I can not tell any positive difference over upsampling on the fly using Foobar/SoX.  An a whole lot less HD space.
  
 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun06/articles/wavelab6.htm


----------



## ccschua

Finally get my unit to work. What a relief.
  
 owners who had bought the unit, pls get your copy of driver ready, even before the unit arrive. You need a password before you can even download.
  
 my audio setup up. dual PC, audio PC in core mode. control PC windows 8. control PC direct link to audio pc using ethernet cable.
  
 I was anxious on installing the driver as I had dual PC configuration. Silly that I try to switch GUI mode, but by running the driver (exe). its done. all I have to do is go to control PC and hit foobar2k. voila.music comes.
  
 as usual, play my routine tracks 
  
 TakeDake with Nepture - Korea Idea and Japan idea. the flute, bamboo knocks are so real. the flutter and breathing can be distinguished better. The soundstage and dynamics of the artists is better portrayed on stage.
  
 Antoine Dufour and Tommy Gauthier - Mellow deep art - the picking and slaps on guitar is kicking live. Gauthier violin has better extension, especially can hear the micro detals of the violin.
  
 Kojitamaki - wine red no kokoro - his mellow voice and image better focused on stage. the kind of song that can melody one to sleep and dream. the voice and music sound more coherance with F-1.
  
 Dire Straits - Money for nothing & six blade knife. play this at earth shattering level and get the feel how mark knopfler push his electric acoustics to limitsand kick drums are beating with rhythm as if pushing me back and forth with the beats.
  
 well this is impressions cool out of box. more to come.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> Finally get my unit to work. What a relief.
> 
> owners who had bought the unit, pls get your copy of driver ready, even before the unit arrive. You need a password before you can even download.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice review!  You had the DXIO Pro3a to compare?
  
 Of course will improve with burnin.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

The final piece of the puzzle arrived today the Curious Audio Cable 200mm Regen USB link.
 It was weird - just replacing the Regen hard adapter - the PC would not recognize the F-1 (through the W4S Recovery).
  
 When ever this happens just unistall the XMOS drivers - reboot - reinstall.  This worked.  But funny how just a USB cable required a driver reinstall.
  
 The sound significantly improved further!  Wow what space and imaging!
  
 Highly recommended.  Here is my data chain now:
  
 PC WIN10 iCore7>PPAV2 (iPower)>Jitterbug (modded to Vbus and ground blocker)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable(data only leg)>Recovery (fed by Teradak DC-30W/DC iPur)>Curious 200mm USB link>iPurifier2>F-1


----------



## lateboomer

You guys keep talking about getting the driver ready. I am also dual pc setup with i5 laptop Win 10 music server running HQplayer, and another Intel NUC running NAA streamer setup with fiber optic connection under Linux OS. So I have ordered F-1 from ebay and where should I get the driver?


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> You guys keep talking about getting the driver ready. I am also dual pc setup with i5 laptop Win 10 music server running HQplayer, and another Intel NUC running NAA streamer setup with fiber optic connection under Linux OS. So I have ordered F-1 from ebay and where should I get the driver?


 

 Here is the link from the Taobao seller's ad:
  
*https://pan.baidu.com/s/1jHiIIzk *
  
 You just need the password from the seller.  I use Google Chrome to do the automatic translation.
  
 If you bought off Ebay - just ask that seller for the link and password.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Here is the link from the Taobao seller's ad:
> 
> *https://pan.baidu.com/s/1jHiIIzk *
> 
> ...


 
 I mailed freechoppingchina and within 5 minutes I got a working password.
 Nice service.


----------



## Caper

Got the Intona today but really haven´t time to try it out for a couple of day´s.
 The F1 is not sent yet from China, it´s still pending.


----------



## hugoboss

caper said:


> Got the Intona today but really haven´t time to try it out for a couple of day´s.
> The F1 is not sent yet from China, it´s still pending.


 
  
 you sure already got many super device like intona and the f1.
 if the sound of your dac is not hear higher grade then before, (sorry, but ithink you should upgrade your dac to a higher grade)
  
 the intona plus f1 is super freaking combo already


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> I mailed freechoppingchina and within 5 minutes I got a working password.
> Nice service.


 
 Same for me.  Shenzen on Ebay is good too -  I will ask them today for the driver location and password.
  
 Bet it's the same


----------



## Caper

hugoboss said:


> you sure already got many super device like intona and the f1.
> if the sound of your dac is not hear higher grade then before, (sorry, but ithink you should upgrade your dac to a higher grade)
> 
> the intona plus f1 is super freaking combo already


 

 Actually I have not many super devices but a LOT of other things to worry about right now 
 I guess I will have time in a couple of day´s to try out the Intona and then wait for the F1 to arrive.
  
 I am pretty sure the Intona/F1 combo will be nice, just have to wait and see.


----------



## rb2013

*Review Update F-1:*
  
 OK well past 200 hrs and the SQ has evened out on my F-1, at an extrodinarly high level.  Everything I said before...Now even greater air, transparency and vibrancy with the Curious 200mm USB link between the Recovery and iPurifier2.
  
 There should be a whole host of folks getting theirs soon - so what to look for:  Straight out of the box (mylar envelope) very detailed, deeper bass, clarity and focused sound staging.  Excellent tone as well - but that will get better with burnin.  Any slight edge or graininess (depends on album) will be gone at 100hrs - by 200hrs just creamy smooth and musical.  You are all in for a real audio treat.  As I said before to get the most out of the F-1 will require better power then the PC USB can provide and data/ground cleaning.
  
 I think I'm going to just sit back and enjoy this for a while - many albums to re-listen to through this new 'lens'.  Virtually every one with new details revealed.
  
 Just great.
  
 Once the additional boards arrive will be begin the modding - 1st will be the simple RCA SPDIF upgrade.
  
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

A little OT but illustrates what one of the top DAC designers deem important:
  
 The totl new R2R Total DAC six d1 tube - $15,000 of DAC greatness!! No i2s, no DSD.  So if the one of best DAC designers, whose attention to detail is possibly unrivaled (300 precision matched .01% Vishay individual resistors for the DAC ladder), deems i2s not important fro the best sound quality, nor DSD, well...how could i argue?
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/totaldac3/1.html


----------



## Luckbad

rb2013 said:


> A little OT but illustrates what one of the top DAC designers deem important:
> 
> The totl new R2R Total DAC six d1 tube - $15,000 of DAC greatness!! No i2s, no DSD.  So if the one of best DAC designers, whose attention to detail is possibly unrivaled (300 precision matched .01% Vishay individual resistors for the DAC ladder), deems i2s not important fro the best sound quality, nor DSD, well...how could i argue?
> 
> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/totaldac3/1.html


 
  
 It does have BNC and AES though.


----------



## rb2013

luckbad said:


> It does have BNC and AES though.


 

 Yes it does...and USB and SPDIF...


----------



## sbgk

rb2013 said:


> *Review Update F-1:*
> 
> OK well past 200 hrs and the SQ has evened out on my F-1, at an extrodinarly high level.  Everything I said before...Now even greater air, transparency and vibrancy with the Curious 200mm USB link between the Recovery and iPurifier2.
> 
> ...


 
 does the sq still get affected by changes you make in foobar 2000 eg memory play or buffer size ?


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> does the sq still get affected by changes you make in foobar 2000 eg memory play or buffer size ?


 

 Not that I have found - and this is what really threw me - on the F-1 running JPlay 6.2 had little SQ effect (WIN10) - with the X-1 on a WIN7 machine it did.
  
 So far the 'ASIO: XMOS USB Audio 2.0 ST 3086'  sounds the best (3449ms , dither)


----------



## rb2013

I thought I would re-post this here - from another thread:
  


auvgeek said:


> @bimmer100 modded my Breeze DU-U8, which I lent him partially so he could review it and we agreed that he should mod it while he had it there. It sounds SO good. The Crystek 957s seem to improved the soundstage and bass the most. The soundstage is obviously wider with a bit better imaging than before. That bass though! It seems to dig deeper with more punch (i.e., better dynamics) while still being tighter and more detailed than before. The highs are also clearer and more detailed, while still retaining the laid-back, non-fatiguing nature of the stock Breeze. Keep in mind my impressions are with the stock power cord, as my Graphene Extreme PC is currently being shipped back to me from my parent's house. But ~$100 for the clocks and dip14 sockets/boards seems definitely worthwhile to me, if you have the DIY skills.
> 
> If we're going off @rb2013s scale with the stock Breeze with GE power cord is 108 (98 without) and the stock U12 is 72, I'd place the Breeze with new clocks at 120-125 and, assuming the GE cable has the same effect as before (+10 points), you get a total score of 130-135. Maybe my numbers are inaccurate—there's a lot of interpolation off his scale, and I don't really understand what the numbers mean. But the point is that for $220, you can get an amazing DDC.


 

 Great to hear the Breeze responded well to the better Cyrstek clocks.  It certainly is a great unit. 
  
 The point rating is just a relative scale - 100 just being approx the stock Breeze with the Talema transformer.  I agree made significantly better by the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme power cord (what happened to that guy?- he disappeared after I made him so popular.  Even had a audio reviewer contact me about reviewing his cables - as he could not reach him).
  
 Anyway - this new class of USB DDCs based on the lastest XMOS 1000MIPS XU208 chip have just catapulted over the Breeze, Pro3a and the PUC 2 lite.
  
 I would say the Singxer F-1 using Crystek CCHD 575 audio clocks, NDK SD clock for USB - is in a whole other league.  I just finished burnin at 200 hrs and would put it at 150-155.  With the improvements I have made in my data and ps chains - now the package at 170ish. It's that good.  The Singxer X-1 based on the 1000MIPS XU208 as well but with NDK SD audio and USB clocks at 140-145.  The F-1 is king right now - it uses very advanced FPGA USB isolation, multiple ultra low noise ADI LDO regulators, etc...
  
 Here is the thread I started to track these amazing devices:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived
  
 Cheers!





 
  
 PS There is much to go with USB and SPDIF as far as SQ improvements go.  Although I may have pushed the edge of the envelope as far as possible now. I use my old $30K analog system as a reference - this has surpassed it!  At a fraction of the total cost.
  
 Three cheers for PC Audio!!!  And my old analog turntable could never have 3TB of music - 30 different playlists - mixing SACD, Redbook WAV, Digitalized LP's (at 32/176K), DVD-A's - all in one playlist!


----------



## hugoboss

i think what make f1 so different with x1 or q1 is the fpga chip xilinx
 that is the key of the outstanding f1.
 xilink fpga chip.
  
 nowdays if iam not wrong intel is planning to buy xilinx company but in the end intel buying xilinx competitor "altera" with huge 16 billion. also in 2016 to begin selling products with a Xeon chip and an Altera FPGA in a single package.
  
 i just wonder why intel not buying xilinx and integrated that fpga technology inside intel procesor so pc computer will enter the era for super low jitter with the new intel procesor
 qualcom is the one who in rumor will buy xilinx. wonder if xilinx become qualcom part.
 what will happen in the future smartphone with qualcom chip maybe we can see some xilinx fpga chip in smartphone at future.


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> i think what make f1 so different with x1 or q1 is the fpga chip xilinx
> that is the key of the outstanding f1.
> xilink fpga chip.
> 
> ...


 

 I believe you are right the USB isolation scheme using the FPGA is benefical to the F-1's SQ.  But they were not the first to think of this - Tanly had it as well with their XMOS U8 DDC and of course with even better components the Berkeley Alpha USB.  But after listening to the X-1 (without this circuit), it is better then any DDC I have heard yet!  Only the F-1 beats it - so far.
  
 So I do believe the XMOS 1000MIPS XU208 is a factor here.
  
 I'll know more when the DIYinHK DXIO Pro4a arrives - I liked the Pro3a very much - it was beaten only by the PUC2 Lite - in my DDC shootout rankings.  The upgraded Pro4a will use the XU208 and have NDK SD clocks - also DIYinHK ultra low 1uv regulators.
  
 FPGA chips are very flexible and can be used for a whole host of functions.  Some companies even use them as R2R multi-bit DACs (Chord) to great effect.  The programming is the trick.
  
 Fun stuff!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> A little OT but illustrates what one of the top DAC designers deem important:
> 
> The totl new R2R Total DAC six d1 tube - $15,000 of DAC greatness!! No i2s, no DSD.  So if the one of best DAC designers, whose attention to detail is possibly unrivaled (300 precision matched .01% Vishay individual resistors for the DAC ladder), deems i2s not important fro the best sound quality, nor DSD, well...how could i argue?
> 
> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/totaldac3/1.html


 
  
 That's because this design does not talk I2S, so why would he use it then? I too am not DSD convinced, but maybe will in the near future...


----------



## ccschua

I feel that my system has changed dac with the singxer x-1.

It seems to inprove with more hours burnt.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> That's because this design does not talk I2S, so why would he use it then? I too am not DSD convinced, but maybe will in the near future...


 

 Well I think the designer of a $15000 sota DAC would use a different design if i2s was so good versus AES, BNC,SPDIF, USB - don't you think?
  
 But Srajan mentions two other totl DACs in the review.  Currently his favorites:
  
 The $6K Aqua HiFi La Scala MKII - also R2R using the excellent PCM1704UK chips (same as my modded DAC60 - more info here
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project):
  
 Although it is an R2R DAC design it does have i2s.  But he runs it by SPDIF coax:

  
 OT but relating back to the F-1 - SPDIF coax/bnc/aes is still the std.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I feel that my system has changed dac with the singxer x-1.
> 
> It seems to inprove with more hours burnt.


 

 Great to hear!  I want to say - it was your mention of the DXIO Pro3a that motivated me to get one, many months ago - thanks!


----------



## Nycalex

please excuse my curiosity, but what exactly does this device do?


----------



## rb2013

nycalex said:


> please excuse my curiosity, but what exactly does this device do?


 

 Magic! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 No seriously it connects your PC to your DAC - using the latest technology.


----------



## rb2013

Here is another new totl DAC - this one not R2R, but based on the ESS9018S:
  
 The Fore Audio DAISy1 - $6000 - no i2s...just sayn'  One of 6Moons top picks for sota DACs. 

  
  
  
  
 Did I mention the $2400 Schiit YGGDRASIL DAC - no i2s.
Yggdrasil 
  
 The bottom line is don't get hung up on i2s - the F-1 can do it if you want.  But it's not required for great sound, as some would have you believe...unless you have all those 784k and 512DSD files you just have to hear in native.


----------



## abartels

wonder what kind of USB input circuitry all those marvelous totl dac's have, would they convert to spdif?


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> wonder what kind of USB input circuitry all those marvelous totl dac's have, would they convert to spdif?


 

 Well from what I can tell - both from Srajan's deep knowledge and access to tons of totl gear (far more then you or I will ever hear) - he prefers using an external DDC and feeding the DAC by SPDIF (see the Aqua HiFi La Scala MK2 photo from the 6moons review).
  
 I love this part of his excellent review - sounds awfully familiar 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





:


> *Buzz-word compliance* is its de rigueur mortis and mega pixel count. It preys on misinformed consumers who shop by the numbers. Hence by mid 2014, AMR's iFi division had gone positively purple with glee to announce 768kHz PCM and DSD _octa compliance_. By then DSD256 whose very first commercial files had just begun to appear was already passé. DSD512 was the new 'in' to remind us that all life is cyclical. It spirals out of control. Then it collapses and begins anew. On cyclical, in the crusades Christianity had its holy wars. Today it's the turn of Islam. In hifi the former were the THD and IMD wars. The latter's present equivalents target digital sample rates. Faced by such accelerating madness, Aqua pray for all-out peace. Their _assalaamu a'laikum_ or _pax vobiscum_ is refusal to participate. Opt out. Say no to DSD and anything above 24/192. How refreshing. If John Darko's assessment had it right, this decision was far from counter-productive. Quite possibly it was the crucial enabler. Obviously neither Metrum's Hex nor Aqua's La Voce had upsampled, quadrupled or DSD'd. Yet on those I was sold already from close familiarity. Time out then from the digital hamster mill which would turn us into _octagenarians_ well before our time. Mind, I'm not singling out iFi. They were simply first to hit those particular numbers. More will undoubtedly follow. That's the whole mechanism of fashion. It's a lemming brigade.


 
 Then has this picture - LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  


> *Final words.* This Italian deck won't do native DSD or DXD at 352.8kHz though it will surely process such data converted to 176.4kHz PCM. But what it may lack in fashion flash to keep up with the restless digital Joneses shopping by the numbers, it more than makes up for with richly textured highly resolved very dynamic performance. That taps into more of the artistic energy that's actually encoded in our music and waiting to _communicate_ with us. With a very capable fixed-gain linestage built in, this digital-to-analog converter is very full-bodied and dynamically charged to ideally complement lean speed-tuned systems. The only context where its strong contributions of heft and mass could add up excessively are already very warm dense systems. Then the leaner La Voce II would be preferable. The La Scala II is very well built, comprehensively socketed, fairly priced and fully modular to account for unexpected advances down the road. Finally, it showed me enough of a lead over four strong resident competitors in this general mid 4-figures price sector to firmly demand an award. Best I've heard in my system as John Darko put it? For the money, absolutely and without the shadow of a doubt. Put my name down too on this growing list of outspoken admirers for the Aqua Hifi La Scala II!


 
  
 It looks like the internal USB board is a none to fancy XMOS one - so I can see why a better external DDC would sound better.  Not to mention the 'USB packet noise' feeding back in to the DAC's power supply.
  

  
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> wonder what kind of USB input circuitry all those marvelous totl dac's have, would they convert to spdif?


Afaik, i2s is a must for native dsd with most dac chips. And I'd bet all graphene cables that the Ess dac pictured above has quite a few i2s wires inside 

But I won't bother discussing the obvious i2s "misunderstandings" posted lately. This thread is about pushing the latest usb 'wonder'. I'd let it just be and work on something useful .. like freeing your mind of this usb nonsense that requires 10 cables, 5 devices and all your time, money and nerves just to send a few bits from a to b. 
Also, it's not like it's gonna take long before the next usb 'wonder' needs it's own hype thread


----------



## sbgk

prot said:


> Afaik, i2s is a must for native dsd with most dac chips. And I'd bet all graphene cables that the Ess dac pictured above has quite a few i2s wires inside
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 yes, interesting times, what's not to like.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Afaik, i2s is a must for native dsd with most dac chips. And I'd bet all graphene cables that the Ess dac pictured above has quite a few i2s wires inside
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'll post this from the Melodious thread without further comment:


> 1/18/16
> 
> [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/8/81/100x100px-LS-81cc36ee_avatar-120-5.jpg[/img]
> 
> ...


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip
  
 PS See Currawong -  I can be gracious in the face of this abuse.  Cheers Mate! 
 Currawong is the thread moderator for those new to these parts - who tries to be as fair as possible - a tough job sometimes.  Due to some folks who like to provoke and flame other people's threads and hard work - and of course have never heard what the thread is talking about.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> I'd let it just be and work on something useful .. like freeing your mind of this usb nonsense that requires 10 cables, 5 devices and all your time, money and nerves just to send a few bits from a to b.
> Also, it's not like it's gonna take long before the next usb 'wonder' needs it's own hype thread


 
 But I did just read this - hum....
  
  4/12/16 at 11:03am




 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/8/81/100x100px-LS-81cc36ee_avatar-120-5.jpg[/img]
 
prot




 
*online*
 
1,190 Posts. Joined 8/2013
Location: EU
 





auvgeek said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but can anyone explain (simply) the difficulty in designing a device with a reclocker (Regen, etc) AND galvanic isolation (Intona)?





 The hard part is the galvanic iso. Chips who can do that at full usb2.0 speed are rare, new and
 expensive. Afaik Intona has the only commercial chip right now .. few others are rumored to come.
 And btw the intona device actually does both isolation and "regen". If you *really* need to clean
 your usb signal that is the device to buy right now.


Reply


----------



## prot

sbgk said:


> yes, interesting times, what's not to like.



You are of course right about the 'interesting' part. Usually I like that but it could be quite exhausting. 

After investing lots of time & money through the previous thread related to the old crop of ddc-s (gustard, breeze, etc), I'm not moved so easily anymore. All that wow-wow and in the end all of them were bettered by a 10 year old puc2 that actually does not use any of the 'magic stuff' discussed around here: no xmos, no super clocks, no super caps, no expensive cables and/or power required.
 I think most of the ddc stuff discussed in those threads isnt that useful if you really want better sound ... and/or care about your wallet & sanity. Alex's no-usb solution based on rpi & i2s might actually just be the best way forward. But then, it's just my opinion, dont let it spoil the new usb hype


----------



## hugoboss

yeah some people believe some no. its normal.
 this is my own story of usb audio journey . iam a speaker user non headphone with tube integrated amp
  
 i remember when the first time i know about usb sound is from my first dac *centrance mini cx *which use galvanically-isolated design.
 the sound is good in that era (year 2011) if i remember . but still not satisfied
 then i buy my first usb to coax converter its called *" matrix x-spdif". *
 the sound quality in my ear got upgraded *instantly* very good everything is better then without it.
  
 then iam try several usb cable. the most expensive usb cable i try is my own diy usb cable using neotech silver gold occ 26awg. the cable itself is $70/Meter. iam using 4 meter usb need 4 cable for 1 meter.
 but whatever i tried the cable give no sound. i tried pure silver cable still no sound. last i tried occ copper. it give sound  but still not satisfied. then i give my cable to specialist cable maker. it sound wonderful , another upgrade for me.
  
 moving to year 2014 . chord hugo come. i bought 1, for me the sound is the best i ever heard but the problem is the rca output is to small at hugo first edition, it's also use micro usb that is pain in the ***. so i sold my hugo.
 then i saw new dac from aune s16 which use a new modern usb isolation with adum chipset and double crsytek cchd957.
 the sound better then my centrance.
 then i tried my matrix to aune. it sound worst. so i think in 2014 the usb solution inside dac is improved . it doesnt need any ddc like matrix again.
  
 2015 , i got my ifi iusb 3.0 and 5volt usb linear psu ( i already wait several year for ifi to upgrade their first iusb solution)
 now my aune s16 got improved sound from ifi. but it's need dual head cable with separate 5volt power and data.
 so another improvement for me.
  
 2016. here comes the new ddc xmos 208. i saw this 1000mips upgrade is like a new technology , iam sure it's sound good
 then i saw rb2013 review. i order one . i know it will sound good. just remember for my first ddc matrix sound.
 now just wait till it arrive with my new nos 7 audiogd i will post my impression here.
  
 so i believe any ddc with each year new chipset. any usb cable with occ cable, any device like ifi usb 3.0 or regen.
 will upgrade your existing dac sound. but the question is it worth it?
 if you calculate
 1. the ddc price
 2. usb cable price (the branded or a good occ cable)
 3. the linear power supply for 5volt usb
  
 iam sure that 3 item price summed up will almost like $500 or more. how about just buy a new dac without ddc, linear power supply etc etc.
 but still as human iam always looking for a upgrade so it's very fun to achieve a super high quality sound.
  
 that's my story sorry its out of the topic


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> You are of course right about the 'interesting' part. Usually I like that but it could be quite exhausting.
> 
> After investing lots of time & money through the previous thread related to the old crop of ddc-s (gustard, breeze, etc), I'm not moved so easily anymore. All that wow-wow and in the end all of them were bettered by a 10 year old puc2 that actually does not use any of the 'magic stuff' discussed around here: no xmos, no super clocks, no super caps, no expensive cables and/or power required.
> I think most of the ddc stuff discussed in those threads isnt that useful if you really want better sound ... and/or care about your wallet & sanity. Alex's no-usb solution based on rpi & i2s might actually just be the best way forward. But then, it's just my opinion, dont let it spoil the new usb hype


 





Quote: 





> P.S.
> Sorry everyone for my role in the u12-thread story, I certainly didnt want that thread closed. I own & enjoy an U12 and got a lot of useful info from that thread .. including from rb2013...
> Edited by prot - 1/18/16 at 6:31am


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> All that wow-wow and in the end all of them were bettered by a 10 year old puc2 that actually does not use any of the 'magic stuff' discussed around here: no xmos, no super clocks, no super caps, no expensive cables and/or power required.


 
 The misinformation and falsehoods are outstanding!  But so glad you arrived here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now for the facts - the PUC2 Lite is a little over a yr old:
 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul14/articles/yellowtec_puc2.htm
  
 Has excellent technology - and comes highly rated - but to get the best required very clean power and Regeneration -
 3/28/16 at 6:50am

THREAD STARTER 


 
 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/3c/100x100px-LS-3c5d6de5_OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest2.png[/img]
 
rb2013
Author of *The 6922 Tube Review*




 
*online*
 
3,567 Posts. Joined 4/2013
 





mz2014 said:


> Hi.
> Have these interfaces a direct internal power supply  (without USB) and I2S output ?






 No direct power feed - but there are many solutions for USB power - I'm currently using a PUC2 Lite and a DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a.  The PUC2 lite has USB power only - the Pro3a can be powered either way.
  
 I don't use I2S for my DACs- only SPDIF - but it appears that they have the pins out on each board for I2S.
  
 Here is what has worked for me on the USB powered DDCs:
  
 So far the best is the TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious/DC iPur to the Regen then the iPur2.0 to the PUC2
  






  Sorry for the interruption of the prot show...love watching him contradict himself over and over - Prot...go on...


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## prot

hugoboss said:


> yeah some people believe some no. its normal.
> this is my own story of usb audio journey . iam a speaker user non headphone with tube integrated amp
> 
> i remember when the first time i know about usb sound is from my first dac *centrance mini cx* which use galvanically-isolated design.
> ...




Guess your usb story resonates pretty well with many around here. Surely sounds familiar to me. After 2 years and tens of usb devices I ended up with a puc2 .. the full one, that 'lite' stuff is not for me 
It's a very good device and indeed better than all others I tried. Happy with it but still think that I invested way too much time/money/nerves into the usb stuff. And the results are just minimal in my setup. Audible but they definitely dont justify the clutter and effort. 
Btw, if anyone wants a good look at the puc2, here's an old (2010) swedish thread with lots of nice pics of the internals .. you can google translate but the pics should suffice 
http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/forums/index.php?showtopic=8273&hl=Yellowtec


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## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> yeah some people believe some no. its normal.
> this is my own story of usb audio journey . iam a speaker user non headphone with tube integrated amp
> 
> i remember when the first time i know about usb sound is from my first dac *centrance mini cx *which use galvanically-isolated design.
> ...


 

 I agree - this Computer Audio is going to evolve as technology improves - like saying 'hey you recommended a Intel Pentium back in 1998 - now you say the iCore 7 Haswell is better!'  What new PC are you going to hype next? 
  
 Same for Windows - WIN10 is better to my ears then WIN7 - and it came 'free' with my $450 iCore 7 - no need for the $600 Server2012.
  
 Now show me a $500 DAC that does as much as the F-1 plus some data and power enhancements.  I'll buy one tomorrow.
  
 This Rasberry Pi stuff is great - but not for me.  I'm have too much time invested in setting up my Foobar 2000/SoX/Music File/Custom Playlists - system.  And I don't need to USB is working great with minimal effort and expense.  Best audio I have ever had better then this:


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## rb2013

prot said:


> Guess your usb story resonates pretty well with many around here. Surely sounds familiar to me. After 2 years and tens of usb devices I ended up with a puc2 .. the full one, that 'lite' stuff is not for me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Here we go again!  Do you really have a PUC2?  Did you know that the only difference between the PUC2 and PUC2 lite is the PUC2 is a DAC also (mediocre).  The PUC2 lite is just a DDC (And cheaper) - which is all I need - as I have a $6500 APL NWO Jr DAC already and a heavily modded (by me) R2R PCM1704UK DAC60.  But glad to see you followed another of my recommendations...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Bet you bought the Cerious Technology Graphene Extreme cables I recommended too...just sayn'...maybe you have a F-1 on order already.  Betcha'


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## rb2013

http://www.yellowtec.com/en/products-lp/puc.html
  


> The​*PUC2​*is a compact, two‑channel, USB 2 bus‑powered audio interface, coming in three versions: In addition to the Standard model the​*PUC2 Lite​*version omits the analogue interfacing.​


 
 The first time I heard the F-1 I knew the PUC2 Lite was going for sale.
  
 I sold it the next day for $380.
  
 Now that the F-1 is fully burnt in - the performance improvement over the PUC2 is as clear as day and night, it's in it's own league.


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## ciphercomplete

I bought a F-1. Ill compare it to the Yggdrasil's internal usb. I havent gotten a shipping notice yet so dont hold your breath.


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## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> I bought a F-1. Ill compare it to the Yggdrasil's internal usb. I havent gotten a shipping notice yet so dont hold your breath.


 

 Is that the Gen3 board?  That'll be an interesting comparison.
  
 Yeah the shipping takes time.


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## robertsong

prot said:


> I think most of the ddc stuff discussed in those threads isnt that useful if you really want better sound ... and/or care about your wallet & sanity. Alex's no-usb solution based on rpi & i2s might actually just be the best way forward. But then, it's just my opinion, dont let it spoil the new usb hype


 
  
  
 Makes me wonder why you opened this very thread in the first place. Hmmm.


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## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Makes me wonder why you opened this very thread in the first place. Hmmm.


 

 So you get to question why I open a thread?  The hubris and dictatorial disposition of some folks here...'how dare someone open a thread to discuss a device I have not heard - but says it's better then the one I own and is way cheaper!'.  'Worse he does not think i2s is the supreme audio connection - without it anything is worthless'  Then I post 3-4 top of the line new DAC's from some of the best audio engineers and desigers in the industry today - ALL expensive from $2k to $15k and without i2s - to support my opinion.  'Out rage' 'Blasphamy' they say.  Then post a top reviewer - whose review of one of the best new DACs on the market - not using i2s - but spdif coax - to do his review (6moons on the Aqua HiFi La Scala 2).  The foam begins at the corners of their mouths!
  
 Here is my advice - don't read my thread if you don't like it.  Do you think I'm in cohoots with some Chinese audio company?  I get a kickback?  I had to use a Chinese buying service and paid a 10% premium to order these...Really some people.
  
 Anyway the feedback is already starting as to what I have been saying...like that would matter to you...hmmmm
  
 But I will humor you, for the benefit of the new folks that might read this.
  
 I started this thread because I came upon these while searching the Taobao website looking for new XMOS DDCs, I saw these and thought this new 1000MIP generation of XMOS USB chips (with twice the processing power of the old U8) might yield some sonic benefit.  But even more interesting was the design and top quality components used in the F-1 (like the $20 a piece Crystek CCHD-575 clocks for audio and NDK SD clock for USB, and FPGA USB isolation, two stage ADI ultra low noise regulators, 4 layer board, etc..).  Previously available for $600+ in the Tanly unit.  For $157.  I said I got to try one.
  
 That alone would be worth a try - but then I saw the $59 X-1 with the 1000MIPS XU208 with NDK SD clocks), again available only in the $180 Pro3a.  I have to try that one too.
  
 Well they don;t have cases - big deal - I bought a nice alumimum case for $9 on Ebay - I can drill some holes and mount it.
  
 It was when I plugged it in and heard it the first time that I was floored!  And sold my previous reference DDC the next day!  For 2 times more then the F-1 cost.
  
 You'd think folks would be thanking me - spending my money and time to try a new unheard device - god knows I have spent plenty on dead ends and dead units (Melodious MX-U8).  But you know what they say about pioneers - 'they're the ones with arrows in their backs'.  But here I get arrows fired front and back.  To be fair I have had many folks thank me for this thread and the Gustard U12 thread I started - including OP!
  
 So sir that is why I started this thread -
 GOOD DAY TO YOU!


----------



## rb2013

In honor of my friend prot (more wrong information passed as factual knowledge)- exciting news from Uptone.  I have been holding off trying a Intona USB galvanic isolator - due to the el-cheapo clocks they use for re-clocking.  This was posted on another thread by Uptone's @Superdad
  
 I gotta try one of these new Uber-Regen's when available - the F-1 responds very well to the Regen and the Recovery:
  
 22 hours, 19 minutes ago 

 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/9a/100x100px-LS-9acb55ce_TinySystem.jpeg[/img] 
 
Superdad
Member of the Trade: UpTone Audio




 
offline
 
51 Posts. Joined 4/2015
 



prot said:


> The hard part is the galvanic iso. Chips who can do that at full usb2.0 speed are rare, new and expensive. Afaik Intona has the only commercial chip right now .. few others are rumored to come.


 
  
 No, the Intona is not based on a commercial chip.  Rather what they have done is write their own USB MAC processing core for an FPGA, then run it in two FPGAs separated by standard Silicon Labs digital isolators.  Unfortunately, they use one very average clock for the entire device--and they have it located on the "dirty" upstream side.  There is jitter added by both FPGAs and 350ps of jitter added by the isolators.  They reclock it all in the second FPGA, but there is broad debate about if that is the best place to reclock.  In addition, none of the voltage regulators they use in the device would be considered particularly low noise (at 55uVrms and 100uVrms).
  
 The Intona does sound good with a REGEN after it though.  That's how I use it.  At least for another couple of months, when we will then release our uber-REGEN with, among a bunch of other enhancements, full galvanic isolation.


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## rb2013




----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> So you get to question why I open a thread?  The hubris and dictatorial disposition of some folks here...'how dare someone open a thread to discuss a device I have not heard - but says it's better then the one I own and is way cheaper!'.  'Worse he does not think i2s is the supreme audio connection - without it anything is worthless'  Then I post 3-4 top of the line new DAC's from some of the best audio engineers and desigers in the industry today - ALL expensive from $2k to $15k and without i2s - to support my opinion.  'Out rage' 'Blasphamy' they say.  Then post a top reviewer - whose review of one of the best new DACs on the market - not using i2s - but spdif coax - to do his review (6moons on the Aqua HiFi La Scala 2).  The foam begins at the corners of their mouths!
> 
> Here is my advice - don't read my thread if you don't like it.  Do you think I'm in cohoots with some Chinese audio company?  I get a kickback?  I had to use a Chinese buying service and paid a 10% premium to order these...Really some people.
> 
> ...


 
 ?????????
  
 Eh, who are talking to here? Sounds like you are responding to me but I'm not sure even sure.


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## rb2013

Reading about this new DIYinHK board using the new XMOS 200 Series XU216 - a two tile (each a XU208) this caught my eye:
  


> There are many technical advantage:
> 1)The latest xmos xCORE-200 includes unique hardware divider and it is used to generate bit-clock from master clock directly.


 
 So this may be why the XU208 sounds so much better then the old U8.  In addition to the 1000MIPS processing (twice the U8's 500MIPS), it looks like the xCore-200 series includes a unique hardward divider that is used to generate the bit-clock from the master clock directly.
  
 Is it that these devices are using the NDK SD ultra low noise TXCO clocks for USB so much more effectively?
  
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html


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## robertsong

Bob, my initial post was obviously directed towards prot, not you. So I have no idea where you're going with that tirade.
  
 Btw, I have thanked you numerous times for both the suggestions of the Breeze DU-U8 and Cerious Graphene Extreme cables. And I have to thank you again for the IFI Purifier2 and 5v Ipower. This Purifier2 is a gem!


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## murphythecat

robertsong said:


> Bob, my initial post was obviously directed towards prot, not you. So I have no idea where you're going with that tirade.
> 
> Btw, I have thanked you numerous times for both the suggestions of the Breeze DU-U8 and Cerious Graphene Extreme cables. And I have to thank you again for the IFI Purifier2 and 5v Ipower. This Purifier2 is a gem!


 
 I also use breeze du u8
 between the cerious and the purifier, which brings the best improvement in SQ?


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## robertsong

murphythecat said:


> I also use breeze du u8
> between the cerious and the purifier, which brings the best improvement in SQ?


 
  
  
 Hi Murph, I currently use the Luckit WaveIO and haven't plugged the Breeze in for a while. I lean slightly towards the WaveIO as my favorite over DU-U8. But I'll throw out an educated guess and say you should go with both the Cerious GE and and Purifier2 for DU-U8. Whatever your budget allows. Yeah, this Purifier2 is amazing me!


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## prot

robertsong said:


> Bob, my initial post was obviously directed towards prot, not you. So I have no idea where you're going with that tirade.




Raging show  
the answer was a simple single word: curiosity.


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## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Bob, my initial post was obviously directed towards prot, not you. So I have no idea where you're going with that tirade.
> 
> Btw, I have thanked you numerous times for both the suggestions of the Breeze DU-U8 and Cerious Graphene Extreme cables. And I have to thank you again for the IFI Purifier2 and 5v Ipower. This Purifier2 is a gem!


 

 I am so sorry - accept my apologies.  I took it the wrong way - as 'why are you starting this thread to 'hype' this DDC' -agreeing with OP.
  
 You see Pr** what a trouble maker you are.
  
 Anyway - my rant was not directed entirely at you  - but well - let keep this thread positive! 
  
 And you have thanked me  - maybe that's why I reacted the way I did.  Again my sincerest apologies.  Really happy you like these great audio products.
  
 I just want to make an important point - just because I find something that sounds better in my systems - it may do nothing for yours.  If you have bought something like the Breeze DDC and I say I found something better - I'm in no way suggesting anyone sell it and buy my new recommendation.  Just because something new may sound better -it does not detract one iota from the sound quality of what came before.
  
 This is NOT a zero sum game - it's amazing improvements for not a lot of money (well in Audiophile terms of $2000 cables).  I blog my findings for three reasons: 1) I learn from the sincere posters, even the ones who disagree (not those with an axe to grind or a chip on their shoulders), 2) I enjoy sharing what I have painstakingly found to work for me (again YMMV), 3) I hope to support small niche new companies that have taken a chance and built some device that will not get mentioned in the audio press - or who can afford advertising.  Its got to be word of mouth - this benefits all of us - whether you buy their product or not - because it encourages innovation and low prices.
  
 Who would have thought the first (at least the first I have seen) implementation of the XMOS XCore 200 series chips would come from China? Not me for sure - maybe a copycat follow on product.  So Cheers to them.


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## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> I also use breeze du u8
> between the cerious and the purifier, which brings the best improvement in SQ?


 

 That's a tough call - the iPurifer2 is a lot cheaper (around $90).  So I would start there.  I think with the TeraDak DC-30W the DC iPurifer (around $90) (won't work with the Breeze as it's ACtoDC PS is internal) is a great value - and probably better then the $250 (at least what I paid) Cerious Tech GE power cord.
  
 BTW I have a Cerious Tech Graphene digital cable on the way - just to compare with the Audio Sensibilites Statement I have now.
  
 He had a bunch of ads on Audiogon at great prices a day or two ago - now they have all been taken down but one.
  
 Anyway it was offered at $199 vs the $299 regular price.  So we will see what that does.


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## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Hi Murph, I currently use the Luckit WaveIO and haven't plugged the Breeze in for a while. I lean slightly towards the WaveIO as my favorite over DU-U8. But I'll throw out an educated guess and say you should go with both the Cerious GE and and Purifier2 for DU-U8. Whatever your budget allows. Yeah, this Purifier2 is amazing me!


 

 +1 Yes I agree on the iPurifier2 - a huge stepup over the original iPurifier which I had and sold (made very little difference).


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## rb2013

prot said:


> Marvelous show guys


 

 As for the Raspberry Pi you hype 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to be the new 'Audio Nirvana' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




- it is wrought with issues.  It has clocks and needs power just like all audio products. And from what I have read so far, mediocre in SQ.  Not only that the interface is from 1979 - a joke. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So go ahead and have fun with your Lego audio project - I'm very happy with what USB - albeit fine tuned - is sounding like. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway that is best left for the Raspberry and Apple pie thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...And to you sir I say:
  
 GOOD DAY!


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## murphythecat

allright robert and RB2013, ill get the ipurifier2.
 RB2013, thanks again for all this search you do!
  
 anyone wants to get my second breeze du u8? brand new never even connected!


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## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> allright robert and RB2013, ill get the ipurifier2.
> RB2013, thanks again for all this search you do!
> 
> anyone wants to get my second breeze du u8? brand new never even connected!


Thanks! Post your inpressions with the Breeze.


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## abartels

rb2013 said:


> As for the Raspberry Pi you hype
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Bob, please don't write about things you haven't any clue about. Good RPI players with HQ digital output (which indeed means good clocks and psu's) have less issues than DDC's in general, and SQ is FAR from mediocre.
 And when looking at the pricetag, without extra psu's, it's $100, so a real bargain.
  
 For the moment, my initial AK4495SEQ dac, a low cost I2S Chinese one of an unbelievable $30 exceeds performance of my expensive and extensively build AK4495SEQ "Monster Dac" with isolated I2S Xmos interface,
 and that's JUST because of the RPI interface!
  
*I wouldn't call that mediocre.*
  
 Maybe it's best to keep things separated, keep it clean and friendly. I feel you're trying to involve me in the battle you have with Prot, again, like you did in your U12 thread.
 Again, please leave me out of this, ok?
  
 I appreciate a lot what you're doing, you know I do, there's nobody else buying all those DDC's and test and compare them, and more important, share it with us.
 But don't forget there are other options too, which probably could be even better than what you and I heard before, so please keep your eyes and mind open for all the good things which will cross our paths!
 We still can learn from each other, that's why this kind of fora exist.
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


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## prot

Well said as usual alex. 
And I'm not sure who/what is rb fighting with but it's surely *not* me! 
There is not a single word of mine adressed to him in this thread (afair) ... nor anywhere else in this forum during the last 6 months or so.


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## Caper

I did not subscribe to this thread to read flames, please keep a friendly attitude guy´s.
 So far this thread has been very interesting to read, keep it that way.
  
 Thank you!


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## Caper

I am still waiting on my F1, on it´s way and propably will be here next week.
 Connected the Intona though and bought another Supra USB cable and feed the baby Breeze.
 I am not sure if the Intona needs burning in?
  
 Haven´t really been listening that much yet with the Intona in the chain but I feel that there are litte more details and the bass is deeper and more controled.
  
 When the F1 arrives I will take a day and listen a lot and compare it to the baby breeze.
 Also connect an old DVD player to coax and again compare to the computer sound.
 Last time I did it, the DVD player won.
 Hopefully this time result will be different.
  
  
 Edit: I just listened to a nice rip I did a couple of weeks ago, album by Yello that is nice mastered.
 Can´t remember it sounded this good without the Intona, really deep and controlled bass and detailed.
 So it seems the Intona make some improvement to the SQ.


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## abartels

caper said:


> I am still waiting on my F1, on it´s way and propably will be here next week.
> Connected the Intona though and bought another Supra USB cable and feed the baby Breeze.
> I am not sure if the Intona needs burning in?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Try the Boris Blank Electrified double cd, and  boris Blank & Malia cd's, they have same very high recording quality as Yello cd's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have all the Yello albums, including the remastered versions, I bought them separately since that remaster box wasn't available anymore, but didn't regret it for a second 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 That's what all is about, listening to, yes, M U S I C


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## Caper

abartels said:


> Try the Boris Blank Electrified double cd, and  boris Blank & Malia cd's, they have same very high recording quality as Yello cd's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice, I will look for that Boris Blank cd´s!
  
 The SQ of my Yello(Touch) rip is outstanding, nothing I have can really compare to it.
 With that in mind, I am no Audiophile and I am sure there are more cd´s with good mastering.
  
 I use it as a reference when I listen and when I want to brag to my friends how good my pretty cheap system sounds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The bass and richness completely blow them away.
  
 Edit: I subscribe to Tidal HiFi streaming and found both of those Boris Blank albums there.
  
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/music/tidal-1270607/review


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## rb2013

caper said:


> I did not subscribe to this thread to read flames, please keep a friendly attitude guy´s.
> So far this thread has been very interesting to read, keep it that way.
> 
> Thank you!


 

 Yes I agree - this is exactly how my very popular Gustard U12 thread devolved and was finally closed.
  
 Let's ignore the thread hijackers - that only want to turn every thread they comment in to a discussion of their device of choice that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread - the new XMOS XU208 DDC's.
  
 Fine to talk about devices like the iPurifer2, Regen, Recovery, LPS's or even the Intona - but in relation to using it with the F-1, X-1 and whether in helps or hurts.
  
 We are only now getting to the good part - other folks experience with these remarkable devices!
  
 Cheers!


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## rb2013

caper said:


> I am still waiting on my F1, on it´s way and propably will be here next week.
> Connected the Intona though and bought another Supra USB cable and feed the baby Breeze.
> I am not sure if the Intona needs burning in?
> 
> ...


 

 How much was your Intona?  Really looking forward to the F-1 vs DVD player face-off.
  
 Cheers!


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## rb2013

abartels said:


> For the moment, my initial AK4495SEQ dac, a low cost I2S Chinese one of an unbelievable $30 exceeds performance of my expensive and extensively build AK4495SEQ "Monster Dac" with isolated I2S Xmos interface,
> Alex


 
 Alex I respect your technical abilities - but we are in completely different spaces system wise.  But enjoy your budget stuff - I bet many beginners to audio will find your comments useful.
  
  
 How much did your spend on your 'Monster DAC'?
  
 Enough on the pi in your eye stuff here.


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## rb2013

prot said:


> Well said as usual alex.
> And I'm not sure who/what is rb fighting with but it's surely *not* me!
> There is not a single word of mine adressed to him in this thread (afair) ... nor anywhere else in this forum during the last 6 months or so.


 

 I will ignore all your 'hype' attacks and other ridiculus comments going forward - when (not if) you get the F-1 let us know how much you like it...


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## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Alex I respect your technical abilities - but we are in completely different spaces system wise.  But enjoy your budget stuff - I bet many beginners to audio will find your comments useful.
> 
> 
> How much did your spend on your 'Monster DAC'?


 
  
 Thanks for the respect, but I don't have budget stuff.
  
 "Monster Dac" cost me between 1.5 and 2K


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## rb2013

abartels said:


> Thanks for the respect, but I don't have budget stuff.
> 
> "Monster Dac" cost me between 1.5 and 2K


 

 Sorry for the attitude - good luck on your pi project - of course as with all your threads I will follow it closely.
  
 Cheers my Friend!


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## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the respect, but I don't have budget stuff.
> ...


 
  
 No problem Bob!
  
 Thanks, I will probably need it, will start with Ians FIFO II - Isolator - DualXO II board project this weekend....
  
 Cheers Bob and have a nice weekend!


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## rb2013

The second batch of 10 just sold out on Ebay - mine bought early in the original ad has yet to ship.  The second batch of three boards one F-1, one X-1, and one Q1-S bought from Taobao have and are well on their way here by EMS - so next week I expect them.  Once these arrive I will do a shootout between my modded Breeze DU-U8 the F-1 and the X-1.
  
 F-1 XMOS USB Digital Interface Module XU208 U8 upgraded version 
 
  
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----------



## seeteeyou

As the pr0t thickens, this thread could very well be a gentle reminder for myself - yet another "interesting" discussion that's actually dedicated to someone who could benefit from one more round of pr0tty training again. LOL
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/prot-23252/index11.html#post393346
  
 Apparently someone didn't manage to learn a lesson over there, could the same fate be repeated here or what?
  
  
 This thread was actually mentioned right here
  
 http://jyoujian.exblog.jp/25638658/
  
  
 More related pages around the globe
  
 http://www.erji.net/read.php?tid=1876186
 http://www.erji.net/read.php?tid=1893680
 http://www.pawpaw.hk/waiyu/ArticleShow2a.asp?id=40
 http://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?t=20468&p=135428#p135302
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/283283-new-xmos-multichannel-pcb.html
 http://www.dimdim.gr/2016/01/diyinhk-xmos-multichannel-32ch-usb-tofrom-i2sdsd-spdif-interface/
 http://avclub.gr/forum/showthread.php/146130-DIYINHK-XMOS-Multichannel-high-quality-USB-to-from-I2S-DSD-SPDIF-PCB


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## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> As the pr0t thickens, this thread could very well be a gentle reminder for myself - yet another "interesting" discussion that's actually dedicated to someone who could benefit from one more round of pr0tty training again. LOL
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/prot-23252/index11.html#post393346
> 
> ...


 

 Wow!  Great stuff!  PRotty-trained.  ROTFLMAO!  This will keep me busy for a few hours...bet he got that last F-1 on Ebay - betcha'


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## mhamel

Why, if everyone's saying they're going to stop, are there still digs being taken at others? It really isn't necessary.
  
 Just let it go and get back to the discussion about the F-1 before this gets closed, too.
  
 Speaking of which - still no shipping notification on the one I ordered. Hopefully next week.


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## prot

mhamel said:


> Why, if everyone's saying they're going to stop, are there still digs being taken at others? It really isn't necessary.
> 
> Just let it go and get back to the discussion about the F-1



+1
Hard to believe it'll ever happen though


----------



## rb2013

On my usual audio search came upon this ad on Audiogon:
  
 The first tube based USB DDC!
  
 $2000 - or I would try one...
 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/transports-lampizator-usb-transport-usb-interface-2016-04-09-digital-10016-new-york-ny
  


> Lampizator USB Transport is 13 months old and in excellent condition.  This is basically a USB-to-S/PDIF converter with a unique tube buffer output stage.  Here's a description from Lukasz' website:
> "Top level USB module converter to AES/EBU and S/PDIF. Super heavy duty power supply. TUBE OUTPUTS OF DIGITAL SIGNALS. Two radio-frequency triodes. Tube power supply of the signal section. Carefully selected paper-in-oil caps in the signal path.  True native AES-EBU, not mirrored S/PDIF."


 
 Lamp is known for amazing DAC's - bet this DDC would be killer great.  Sorry no i2s - but good old SPDIF! (not sacrilege - just reality) - even for $2000.

  
 Oh and Lamp's pretty awesome $13000 DHT Triode Big 7 DAC - sorry no i2s either...


  Guess another great DAC designer is just i2s-clueless - huh?
 http://hifipig.com/lampizator-big-7-dac/


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> +1
> Hard to believe it'll ever happen though


 

 Sorry my friend - it's just too easy...you set yourself up for it.  Play nice, get your F-1 (if you haven't already) and come join the fun!  We welcome you with open arms and minds...you can be positive and add or not.  Your call.


----------



## rb2013

In this Youtube Video - it looks like the XMOS XCORE-200 XU216-512 DIYinHK board skips and ticks.
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwg9Qhb8AIg
  
 Although it looks like this board has been out for a few months - the F-1, X-1, Q1-S look to be the first plug and play boards using the XCore 200 series.
  
 I wonder what the upcoming DIYinHK DXIO Pro4a will look like?  Based on the XU126 or Xu208?  Should be interesting.
  
 PS in now over a week of 24/7 playing not a single unlock for the F-1.  Not one tick, click or pop - running at 192K SoX upsampling on all Redbook files.  My native 176k digitalized LPs same.  Just pure musical goodness.  Super reliable so far.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Why, if everyone's saying they're going to stop, are there still digs being taken at others? It really isn't necessary.
> 
> Just let it go and get back to the discussion about the F-1 before this gets closed, too.
> 
> Speaking of which - still no shipping notification on the one I ordered. Hopefully next week.


 

 Point well taken!  Looking forward to your impressions...should be a few dozen hitting folks systems very soon.  So we will see...


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> Finally get my unit to work. What a relief.
> 
> owners who had bought the unit, pls get your copy of driver ready, even before the unit arrive. You need a password before you can even download.
> 
> ...


 

 Just to repost this - the first person (who btw has a lot of experience with other DDC's) to post their impressions on the F-1.  Very favorable I might ad:


----------



## Quadman

I didn't read the whole thread, but I have one big WHY question.  I get it that the F1 and X1 sound really good but they are, as delivered, set up for usb to RCA digital conversion.  The specs if I read correctly RCA only handle DSD64 DoP, yet if one uses a up sampling program like HQPlayer they would not be able to up sample beyond that.  The board looks ready for I2S but needs the appropriate adapter soldered in and HDMI added for it to work.  Then one could get, in theory, up to dsd512.  So what adapter needs to be soldered in to get I2S running?
  
 Be well


----------



## rb2013

quadman said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, but I have one big WHY question.  I get it that the F1 and X1 sound really good but they are, as delivered, set up for usb to RCA digital conversion.  The specs if I read correctly RCA only handle DSD64 DoP, yet if one uses a up sampling program like HQPlayer they would not be able to up sample beyond that.  The board looks ready for I2S but needs the appropriate adapter soldered in and HDMI added for it to work.  Then one could get, in theory, up to dsd512.  So what adapter needs to be soldered in to get I2S running?
> 
> Be well


 

 Yes you are completely correct it's plug and play USB to RCA (coax) SPDIF up to 192K PCM and DSD64DoP.  To go further you need to attach the i2s hookup - and here lies the trouble with i2s - a host of different pinout 'stds'. Well not so much as any standards - just a few popular manufacturers adaptations.  Then you have the HDMI vs RJ problem.
  
 This was all because, unlike SPDIF (whether RCA, BNC, Optical or AES) which was a true standard (enforced by Sony and Philips - the SP in SPDIF), i2s was only designed to be use within a CD player to connect the DAC board to the CD spinner.  So any manufacturer could design it as they wish.
  
 Now coming next month is the Singxer SU-1 - which quite a bit has been posted about previously here.  This will be a turn key DDC, with BNC, RCA, AES SPDIF as well as HDMI i2s.  Power supply included.  Pricing right now is around $300.  It looks to be based on the F-1 basic design - no nudies yet available of the actual board. Trust me I'm searching high and low for them and will be covering it's release.  Still on the fence about buying one.  I don't need i2s - 192K PCM is just fine for me - and I prefer the flexiblity of running different power supply solutions.  And of course saving $150.
  


  
 PS As far as adapters are concerned - maybe you might want to mention what your DAC is.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> How much was your Intona?  Really looking forward to the F-1 vs DVD player face-off.
> 
> Cheers!


 
 I bought the standard version, 297 US dollar with freight.
 No taxes within EU.
  
 Guess the F1 arrives next week and will let it settle for 100 hours or so before going head to head against the DVD player.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> I bought the standard version, 297 US dollar with freight.
> No taxes within EU.
> 
> Guess the F1 arrives next week and will let it settle for 100 hours or so before going head to head against the DVD player.


 

 Alright!  I love shootouts.
  
 Have you tried the Intona with the Baby Breeze yet?  How does it sound?


----------



## Quadman

rb2013 said:


> Yes you are completely correct it's plug and play USB to RCA (coax) SPDIF up to 192K PCM and DSD64DoP.  To go further you need to attach the i2s hookup - and here lies the trouble with i2s - a host of different pinout 'stds'. Well not so much as any standards - just a few popular manufacturers adaptations.  Then you have the HDMI vs RJ problem.
> 
> This was all because, unlike SPDIF (whether RCA, BNC, Optical or AES) which was a true standard (enforced by Sony and Philips - the SP in SPDIF), i2s was only designed to be use within a CD player to connect the DAC board to the CD spinner.  So any manufacturer could design it as they wish.
> 
> ...


 

 I run a modified Gustard X20u (to Ric S's level 1), I can run dsd 128 with it from the PC with the Xmos driver 3.2 that was on the Chinese site linked on a ebay Gustard page.  I understand with a different driver one could even do DSD256 with the gustard as the USB card does support that.  I was looking at the Gustard u12, knowing it was a bottleneck, but with modifications would probably be okay.  Then this card pops up and looks way better.  The 20 pin pad on the F1 I assume is the i2s, then the conundrum, how to connect it to an HDMI plug matching Gustards pin layout.  With the goal being to run up to DSD512.


----------



## rb2013

quadman said:


> I run a modified Gustard X20u (to Ric S's level 1), I can run dsd 128 with it from the PC with the Xmos driver 3.2 that was on the Chinese site linked on a ebay Gustard page.  I understand with a different driver one could even do DSD256 with the gustard as the USB card does support that.  I was looking at the Gustard u12, knowing it was a bottleneck, but with modifications would probably be okay.  Then this card pops up and looks way better.  The 20 pin pad on the F1 I assume is the i2s, then the conundrum, how to connect it to an HDMI plug matching Gustards pin layout.  With the goal being to run up to DSD512.


 

 Well yes the F-1 is night and day better then the Gustard U12 - you would have to make a custom cable to connect it, one with a ribbon connector at one end. 
  
 You might to wait for the SU-1 and see the HDMI i2s pinouts, or a new Gustard (I'm sure one is in the wings, although I have nothing definite).
  
 Fun with i2s...


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Alright!  I love shootouts.
> 
> Have you tried the Intona with the Baby Breeze yet?  How does it sound?


 
 Haven´t listened that much until today with the Intona in chain with the Baby Breeze.
 Put on my reference FLAC rip, Touch by Yello.
 Excellent mastering.
  
 At first I wasn´t so impressed but after a while I realized it never sounded like this before.
 The bass is so deep and the clarity is impressive.
 I have a really small and cheap system compared to most in this forum.
 Hegel H80 amp, Klipsch RP160M speakers and XTZ 10.17 subwoofer.
  
 It´s really amazing that in even pretty low volumes I can actually feel the bass from this small system.
 Pushing the amplifier more makes me realize that I can almost maximize the volume and it still sounds really good.
 Before, running just USB directly to the amp I remember I could go to about 70% volume before it started to sound like the speakers was maxed out.
  
 Can´t wait until the F1 arrives!


----------



## rb2013

FYI For the $870 *GUSTARD DAC-X20U Super Ultimate HIFI DAC*
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X20U-Super-Ultimate-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-256-/111708547958?ha
  
 Not to impressive looking XMOS USB Card:

  

  
 Here is the pinin config:

  
 Try using the FreeshoppingChina.com buying service or contact Shenzen on Ebay and ask if the designer can reprogram the i2s pinout to match the Gustard inputs.  Worth a shot.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Haven´t listened that much until today with the Intona in chain with the Baby Breeze.
> Put on my reference FLAC rip, Touch by Yello.
> Excellent mastering.
> 
> ...


 

 Good report on the Intona - it will be interesting to get your take on the F-1.  I would be surprised if it wasn't a major stepup.  You're going to power the F-1 with a Aqvox linear PS right?


----------



## Dimdim

rb2013 said:


> In this Youtube Video - it looks like the XMOS XCORE-200 XU216-512 DIYinHK board skips and ticks.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwg9Qhb8AIg
> 
> ...


 
  
 As a matter of fact, the clicks and skips that can be heard on this video are just me clicking on my mouse while seeking on Foobar, looking for louder passages that will make the OLED's needles jump a little more vigourously. This USB interface has no clicking or skipping problems whatsoever.


----------



## rb2013

dimdim said:


> As a matter of fact, the clicks and skips that can be heard on this video are just me clicking on my mouse while seeking on Foobar, looking for louder passages that will make the OLED's needles jump a little more vigourously. This USB interface has no clicking or skipping problems whatsoever.


 

 Great to hear!  Had me worried for a moment.  In the past had a few XMOS U8 DDC's (Melodious MX-U8) with clicking and popping issues.  FYI I had a DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a go bad on me and will be getting one of the first Pro4a's when available.
  
 BTW: Your blog on the Raspberry Pi for high end audio is very interesting!
 http://www.dimdim.gr/2014/12/the-rasberry-pi-audio-out-through-i2s/


> The duration of the pulses appears to alternate between 11.33μS and 11.38μS, giving respectively 44.12KHz and 44.04KHz, values very close to the ones I calculated previously.
> *So, the theory is sound and the RPi’s clock is not up to snuff by strict standards. What this means is that the RPi’s I2S output is not capable of “Hi End” audio transmission. It is essentially not bit perfect (edit: this is not correct, strictly speaking. It is in fact bit perfect, it is just not “proper”.).*
> *In the real world, chances are that this problematic clocking will not be particularly audible under normal circumstances, say with a normal-specc’ed sound system. But an audiophile should definitely steer clear of the RPi’s I2S output, instead opting for a USB to I2S interface.*


 
 P.S Edit:  @b0bb cleared up some of the issues you addressed in your blog about the RPi - over on this thread...
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/797881/ddc-digital-usb-interfaces-xmos-or-amanero-combo384-based-raspberry-pi-hifiberry-dac-pro-reviews-comparison-modifications-and-usb-audio-in-general/30


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Good report on the Intona - it will be interesting to get your take on the F-1.  I would be surprised if it wasn't a major stepup.  You're going to power the F-1 with a Aqvox linear PS right?


 
 Actually I have the Aqvox beföre the Intona in the chain, feels like a better idea.


----------



## ginetto61

hugoboss said:


> oh my god i just check taobao they already have finished product
> but it costly man
> very costly compare to melodius or gustard* it cost $300*
> here is the pic


 
  
 Hi ... yes but this one has also AES/EBU port and Wordclock in ... this is beautiful.  Are there any picture of the internals ? 
 They could have provided also a DC socket for an external PS like for the Hydra Z ... i wonder which is the best unit
 Maybe is a step above the Melodious at 60-70 USD more.   Very nice indeed.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## Muziqboy

caper said:


> I mailed freechoppingchina and within 5 minutes I got a working password.
> Nice service.


 

 Do you mind sharing the password?
 My F-1 should arrive on Monday and not sure if there will be Windows driver provided.
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Actually I have the Aqvox beföre the Intona in the chain, feels like a better idea.


 
 That may not be optimal as the power feed from the Intona is around 400mA I believe (someone correct me if this is wrong) - certainly not enough to adequately drive the F-1
  


ginetto61 said:


> Hi ... yes but this one has also AES/EBU port and Wordclock in ... this is beautiful.  Are there any picture of the internals ?
> They could have provided also a DC socket for an external PS like for the Hydra Z ... i wonder which is the best unit
> Maybe is a step above the Melodious at 60-70 USD more.   Very nice indeed.
> Regards,  gino


 
 Hey Gino,  It is beautiful!  No internals yet - it should be out in May.  It (SU-1) is AC powered like the Gustard U12, Breeze DU-U8, Audio Gd DI-U8 - so no external DC socket.
  
 I had a Hydra Z and the F-1 (USB DC powered) is way better in my systems.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Hey Gino,  It is beautiful!  No internals yet - it should be out in May.  It is AC powered like the Gustard U12, Breeze DU-U8, Audio Gd DI-U8 - so no external DC socket.
> I had a Hydra Z and the F-1 is way better in my systems.
> Cheers!


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot for the very interesting and informative thread. 
 Better than the Hydra Z , from what i read around, is saying a lot.  A pretty definitive device. 
 I guess i have to put away money again ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! thanks a lot for the very interesting and informative thread.
> Better than the Hydra Z , from what i read around, is saying a lot.  A pretty definitive device.
> I guess i have to put away money again ...
> 
> ...


 

 Yes - I was floored when I first heard the F-1, sold my PUC2 Lite the next day.  The Hydra Z has been gone for some time.
  
 I have another two F-1's coming  - one for my office system and another to try some mods on (cap upgrades).
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

My Ebay ordered F-1 just shipped yesterday - this was from the seller Shenzen.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-1-XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-Module-XU208-U8-upgraded-version/111961717820?_trksid=p2047675.c100012.m1985&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36469%26meid%3D3777d78eacf14e349830a5c09c02a008%26pid%3D100012%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D111960639568


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Yes - I was floored when I first heard the F-1, sold my PUC2 Lite the next day.  The Hydra Z has been gone for some time.
> I have another two F-1's coming  - one for my office system and another to try some mods on (cap upgrades).
> Cheers!


 
  
 Hi ! as i said .. i start saving ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thanks for the link !
 I would like to wait and see how much is the version in the box ... very very nice. I love it already. If too expensive i will buy the board.
 IMHO and on the basis of some tests *the usb to spdif conversion is key *when the pc is the source.
 When the spdif signal is of very good quality a dac sounds at its best.   I have already some dacs to try.  I have also the U2 and the Melodious old version.
 In stock form i liked the Melodious better.  Not a bad unit indeed.   But we want always something more.
 I am sure this product will be a big success ... there is a lot of interest on this things.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## hugoboss

the box version su-1 , the price is double the no box version f-1
 but you got more output then the no box


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> That may not be optimal as the power feed from the Intona is around 400mA I believe (someone correct me if this is wrong) - certainly not enough to adequately drive the F-1
> 
> Cheers!


 

 Ok, I will try and see if it works.
 If not, put the Aqvox to feed the F1 directly.
 Aqvox psu delivers 1000mA if I remember correctly.


----------



## Caper

muziqboy said:


> Do you mind sharing the password?
> My F-1 should arrive on Monday and not sure if there will be Windows driver provided.
> Thanks!


 
 I don´t have the password, deleted the mail.
 But I can upload the driver to dropbox or similar later, maybe tomorrow.
 Currently at work and can´t do that right now.
  
 Check your pm later.


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> the box version su-1 , the price is double the no box version f-1
> but you got more output then the no box


 

 Yes exactly - and it has it's own power supply.  What the details of that ps remain to be seen.  From the long experience with these AC powered DDC's, the power supply design and components go along way to the SQ, along with the audio clocks.
  
 The Breeze DU-U8 sounded so good because of the dual stage power filtering and the excellent LDO regulators.  Even the torodial transformers made a difference the better (and more expensive) Talema better then the generic BingZi (see my ranking and rating at the bottom of the opening page of this thread).
 Ideally the SU-1 will have an R-Core transformer - they are the best at PSRR (power supply ripple rejection).  I'm using a TeraDak DC-30W to feed the Recovery, it has an R-Core.  Unfortunately, it does not have very good LDO regulators- so I added the iFi DC iPurifier to filter that noise.
  
 The W4S Recovery has it's own very good ultra low noise regulators - taking 7-9VDC and stepping it down to 5VDC after filtering.  As a final filtering stage - I have a iPurifier2 between the Recovery and the F-1.  That reclocks the USB and improves the data packet signal integrity (as does the Recovery).  So the power to the Recovey's USB clocks is very clean (triple regulated), then that is once more ultra low noise 5uv regulated power and cleaned data stream to be reclocked once more by the iPurifer2's clocks.  Finally that ultra pure/high signal integrity data stream 1uv clean power enters the F-1.
  
 Each step eliminating grunge and harshness...what's left is just magical sounding!
  
 Here is the board on the Breeze (Bingzi)


 Breeze (Talema)

  
 My TeraDak DC-30W

  
 iFi DC iPurifier:
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-dcipurifier/
  

  
 Across the audible range, measured noise is improved by 316x to 100,000x or by 50dB to 100dB respectively.
 Sonically, the background and inner resolution to recordings is brought to the fore and no longer hidden. Sonics are much smoother, just like how good analogue should be. Nothing comes close.

 






 Ultra wide-band design, effective from 1Hz to above 5GHz
 iFi leaves no stone unturned; the DC iPurifier is a ground-up, ultra-wide band design.
 Effective from 1Hz all the way up to 5GHz. Crucially the strongest performance is in the audible range of 20Hz to 20KHz.

 Wyred for Sound Recovery:
 https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/recovery
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/03/fighting-fit-usb-audio-from-wyred4sounds-recovery/
  


  
 Lastly the iFi iPurifer2:
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipurifier2/
  

 USB A, B, C and
 micro sockets
 Established and
 advanced new features
 Active Noise Cancellation®
 














  iFi USB audio technology
 is unsurpassed
 REclock®/REbalance®/REgenerate®
 100 times reduction in noise

  
  
 My chain:


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Ok, I will try and see if it works.
> If not, put the Aqvox to feed the F1 directly.
> Aqvox psu delivers 1000mA if I remember correctly.


 

 Yes the Aqvox is 1000mA - more then enough.  The Recovery supplies up to 1000mA as well (fed 3A from the TeraDak).


----------



## BucketInABucket

Any idea how the F-1 compares to other DiY boards like the Amanero, WaveIO or DiYinHK module?
  
 Also, I'd imagine something like this would be pretty good when it comes to powering the F-1.
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/
  
 No need for all the power filtering when the initial supply is already good, right?


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Any idea how the F-1 compares to other DiY boards like the Amanero, WaveIO or DiYinHK module?
> 
> Also, I'd imagine something like this would be pretty good when it comes to powering the F-1.
> 
> ...


 

 Well I had a DIYinHK Pro3a - it's very good - but the F-1 is a whole other league.  I'll be getting the new Pro4a - that is based on the new XCore 200 XMOS chips.  Someone with a new Amanero board just ordered the F-1 - so we'll see.
  
 I have a iPower 9VDC (I use it to power my W4S Remedy) and a iPower 5VDC (I use to power my PCIe PPA V2 USB card), it's pretty good, esp for the money - but they're still SMPS's.  The Linear DC-30W with the DC iPur is much better - of course more expensive.  Once my system is set, I may get a Paul Hynes LPS.  Our  power today is so dirty and unstable it needs multiple levels of regulation and filtering.
  
 I didn't mention the DC-30W has a Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme power cord and that is plugged into a common mode and differential mode isolated line filter (Art Audio PB4X4Pro) that is plugged into an Audience 1Rp AC rebalancer and filter - Teslaplex wall socket.
  
 The more I experimented with digital high end audio  -  the more I realize how important ultra clean power is.  My Analog system not near so much.  The digital devices themselves create all kinds of noise - SMPS power supplies the worst!.  Best to run your DDC on a AC line isolator separate from the DAC.


----------



## rb2013

The issue is these femto second clocks are extremely sensitive to power noise - creating jitter - the FPGA's themselves create jitter.  Much has been written on this by Uptone Engineer John Swenson: all sorts of causes from impedance mismatching, line noise, packet noise created by the AGC control in the USB reciever chip, PHY noise, PC noise (CPU induced, SMPS induced), and so forth. 
  
 At least to my ears removing each layer of grunge has paid off in terms of detail, clarity, bass depth and control, sound staging, dynamics, and most important tonal realism and musicality.
  
 I posted a lot of stuff from Swenson on my old Gustard U12 thread - but here is a portion explaining USB 'Packet Noise' and why it's so important to have your DDC outside the DAC.  The PHY USB packet processing and AGC cycling can cause jitter that then feedback into the DAC's femto clocks.  It's very hard to filter out as Swenson explains (in other words it can cross isolation - even galvanic!)
  


> So in order to fix this jitter on the I2S signals we “reclock” them with a flip flop clocked by the master clock. BUT the signals going into the flop also cause ground plane noise with a spectrum related to the jitter on the inputs, AND some of the transistors inside the flop are also switching based on the input signals, adding to the ground plane noise correlated to the “jittery” inputs. So why bother reclocking? It DOES decrease jitter, it just doesn’t eliminate it. If the I2S signals have quite a bit of jitter, the reclocking can cut it down by quite a bit, but there is STILL jitter on the output that is correlated to the input jitter AND there is noise on the ground plane related to the input signals that can influence the clock, clock mux, and DAC chip. So while reclocking can help, it is not a panacea.  ​ So now the crux of the matter, how can what goes into the USB receiver affect any of this? In several ways: packet jitter, edge jitter, PLLs. I’ll go over each of these.​ Packet jitter is the difference in the arrival time of packets to the receiver chip. USB packets are transmitted over the bus at either 1000 per second (full speed mode) or 8000 per second (high speed mode). Every time one of those packets hits the receiver a lot of activity happens inside the receiver chip. This creates lots of noise inside the chip and on the ground plane. This causes a lot of jitter on the outputs from the chip. The spectrum of this noise and jitter has a VERY strong component at either 1KHz or 8KHz, both of which are directly in the audio range. Any changes in the arrival time of the packets will change the spectrum of this packet noise. In the next installment I’ll cover what causes this packet jitter.​


 


> "As with everything else I have been talking about, jitter on the input can cause noise in the chip and on the ground plane that is related to the spectrum of the jitter. This is where things like different cables can have an effect on what is happening."​  ​ Next is edge jitter, this is traditional jitter of the individual edges on the bus. As with everything else I have been talking about, jitter on the input can cause noise in the chip and on the ground plane that is related to the spectrum of the jitter. This is where things like different cables can have an effect on what is happening.​ Next is PLLs. Every USB receiver chip has at least one if not more PLLs. These PLLs are affected by both the previous types of jitter and since almost all the circuitry inside the chip is clocked by these PLLs, the jitter on output signals and ground plane noise is going to be significantly affected by the noise spectrum coming out of the PLLs. This is filtered by the PLL loop filter, but there are still major components related to the input jitter.​  ​ So how do we keep all this noise from the USB receiver from getting to our sensitive DAC circuits? It’s called ground plane isolation. You have separate ground planes for the USB receiver and the rest of the DAC circuitry. This DOES prevent ground plane noise from crossing over. BUT if you cut the ground plane there is no way for the return current from the signals crossing the boundary (the I2S signals and clock etc) to get between the “ground domains”. The solution is digital isolators. There are many different technologies to choose from, one most people are familiar with is opto-couplers. Some of these actually add huge amounts of jitter to the signals going through them so are bad choices for our purposes.​


 
  
  
 https://www.by-rutgers.nl/PDFiles/Audio%20Jitter.pdf
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital#VzTvSohBL0PzsJUs.97
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits#BclHdfvQYZlSlXHh.97
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-3-how-bit-perfect-software-can-affect-sound#pzHHzo84Jp426Oxj.97


----------



## BucketInABucket

rb2013 said:


> Well I had a DIYinHK Pro3a - it's very good - but the F-1 is a whole other league.  I'll be getting the new Pro4a - that is based on the new XCore 200 XMOS chips.  Someone with a new Amanero board just ordered the F-1 - so we'll see.


 
 Hmm, I assume that's the old verses the new DiYinHK board. Didn't know they had classifications like that!
  
 The F-1 is almost twice as expensive as the 4A, but that doesn't mean anything without a meaningful comparison.
  


rb2013 said:


> I have a iPower 9VDC (I use it to power my W4S Remedy) and a iPower 5VDC (I use to power my PCIe PPA V2 USB card), it's pretty good, esp for the money - but they're still SMPS's.  The Linear DC-30W with the DC iPur is much better - of course more expensive.  Once my system is set, I may get a Paul Hynes LPS.  Our  power today is so dirty and unstable it needs multiple levels of regulation and filtering.


 
 I wonder how the DiY options stack up, like the AMB Sigma11 or the DiYinHK 5VDC regulators. Since the F1 board is a bare PCB, I reckon that a lot of the people interested in it have at least some skill in DiY which is why I'm asking. 
  


rb2013 said:


> I didn't mention the DC-30W has a Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme power cord and that is plugged into a common mode and differential mode isolated line filter (Art Audio PB4X4Pro) that is plugged into an Audience 1Rp AC rebalancer and filter - Teslaplex wall socket.
> 
> The more I experimented with digital high end audio  -  the more I realize how important ultra clean power is.  My Analog system not near so much.  The digital devices themselves create all kinds of noise - SMPS power supplies the worst!.  Best to run your DDC on a AC line isolator separate from the DAC.


 
 Another reason for DiY is that a sufficiently skilled DiYer can put all those into one box for a very clean and simple power supply solution.


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Hmm, I assume that's the old verses the new DiYinHK board. Didn't know they had classifications like that!
> 
> The F-1 is almost twice as expensive as the 4A, but that doesn't mean anything without a meaningful comparison.
> 
> ...


 

 No not really - the F-1 is plug and play ready for SPDIF - just needs a case.  I ordered one on Ebay for $9, I have mine now mounted in a case left over from another project.  For i2s you need a cable.  I don't care about i2s (recently I posted a whole host of new totl statement DACs from some of the top audio designers - from $2,400 to $15,000 none of which has i2s.  In my opinion nice, but not nessecary for sota audio).
  
 Now the DIYinHK board does require DIY skills for power and output connections.  The DXIO PROa series does not  - it's plug and play as well.
  
 Well the Cerious Graphene is a power cord - it would not go inside anything.  You would have to have one massive box to fit all this - and you may not need it -depending on how resolving or refined your system is.
  
 I've spent over 25yrs refining mine - and it's highly resolving - I can easily hear these changes.  Some not always for the better - those I discard and keep experimenting, it'll never end.  Not at least as long as I'm alive.


----------



## BucketInABucket

rb2013 said:


> No not really - the F-1 is plug and play ready for SPDIF - just needs a case.  I ordered one on Ebay for $9, I have mine now mounted in a case left over from another project.  For i2s you need a cable.  I don't care about i2s (recently I posted a whole host of new totl statement DACs from some of the top audio designers - from $2,400 to $15,000 none of which has i2s.  In my opinion nice, but not nessecary for sota audio).


 
 The F1 is bus-powered then?
  


rb2013 said:


> Well the Cerious Graphene is a power cord - it would not go inside anything.  You would have to have one massive box to fit all this - and you may not need it -depending on how resolving or refined your system is.
> 
> I've spent over 25yrs refining mine - and it's highly resolving - I can easily hear these changes.  Some not always for the better - those I discard and keep experimenting, it'll never end.  Not at least as long as I'm alive.


 
 Oh, fair enough, I actually had no idea that DiYinHK offered boxed solutions. 
  


rb2013 said:


> Well the Cerious Graphene is a power cord - it would not go inside anything.  You would have to have one massive box to fit all this - and you may not need it -depending on how resolving or refined your system is.


 
 You plug it into the one-box solution if required


----------



## rb2013

Info on the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme power chord - I ordered one of their digital cables and it's on the way.
 I've tried at least 20 different power cords - this is the best yet - and very reasonably priced:
 http://www.cerioustechnologies.com/cables/lcPowerCords.html
  
 The Art Audio PB4X4 Pro AC line filters:
 http://artproaudio.com/power_solutions/product/pb4x4_pro/
  


> All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF™ (Advanced Power Filtering) which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.
> By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Yes the Aqvox is 1000mA - more then enough.  The Recovery supplies up to 1000mA as well (fed 3A from the TeraDak).


 
 I read about the Intona:
 300mA nominal (500mA max.) output current on isolated side
  
 So guess no luck having the Intona feed the power.
 Will put the Aqvox to that task instead.


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> The F1 is bus-powered then?
> 
> Oh, fair enough, I actually had no idea that DiYinHK offered boxed solutions.
> 
> You plug it into the one-box solution if required


 

 Yes USB powered - I use a W4S Recovery which has an external power port - that feeds clean +5VDC power to the F-1.  BTW I had really great success with the Uptone Regen as well, same it has an external power port.
  
 Here is the previous (now sold out) DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a - based on the XMOS U8.  The new Pro4a will be based on either the XU216 or XU208:


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> I read about the Intona:
> 300mA nominal (500mA max.) output current on isolated side
> 
> So guess no luck having the Intona feed the power.
> Will put the Aqvox to that task instead.


 

 Thanks for that - although the USB std is 500mA, many devices draw more then that.  I know my old PUC2 Lite drew 800mA.  Not sure about the F-1.  Better be safe then sorry and feed it the Aqvox directly.
  
 This is one of the drawbacks of the Intona.  Uptone is coming out with a Uber-Regen (i posted details a few pages ago) that will have better clocks then the Intona (el cheapo SITime ones) and do a host of other neat things, including galvanic isolation.


----------



## BucketInABucket

rb2013 said:


> Info on the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme power chord - I ordered one of their digital cables and it's on the way.
> I've tried at least 20 different power cords - this is the best yet - and very reasonably priced:
> http://www.cerioustechnologies.com/cables/lcPowerCords.html
> 
> ...


 
 The line filter seems reasonable. The power cables on the other hand...


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> The line filter seems reasonable. The power cables on the other hand...


 

 I hear you!  Or should I say I hear them - but like I said my system is quite abit different then most folks YMMV!


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> The line filter seems reasonable. The power cables on the other hand...


 

 Over on my Gustard U12 thread - mentioned how good this Cerious GE cable sounded, a few folks tried it and loved it - so much that the demand overwhelmed Cerious they were working 16 hrs a day to keep up.


----------



## BucketInABucket

rb2013 said:


> Yes USB powered - I use a W4S Recovery which has an external power port - that feeds clean +5VDC power to the F-1.  BTW I had really great success with the Uptone Regen as well, same it has an external power port.


 
 Hmm, wonder if it'll be possible to supply clean power directly to the board without having to fool around with a solution like that as power and signal being transported in the same cable isn't the best no matter how much isolation or noise rejection there is.
  


rb2013 said:


> I hear you!  Or should I say I hear them - but like I said my system is quite abit different then most folks YMMV!


 
 I'm the type of person to shy away from expensive cables in all honesty


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Hmm, wonder if it'll be possible to supply clean power directly to the board without having to fool around with a solution like that as power and signal being transported in the same cable isn't the best no matter how much isolation or noise rejection there is.
> 
> I'm the type of person to shy away from expensive cables in all honesty


 

 I'm sure there is a way to feed the F-1 directly.  I have had several top DDC's that could run off either external power or USB power.  Like the Hydra Z and the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a - using a LH Labs 2G split USB cable I could power either both ways using a TeraDak X1/X2 (which has a +5VDC USB power out and a 2.5mm variable power out that I set to +5VDC). Could not tell a difference either way.
  
 Hydra Z:


  TeraDak X1/X2 LPS:


  
 Now the Regen and the Recovery serve several important purposes - besides taking an external PS and cleaning it further (they need between 7VDC and 9VDC input to output +5VDC after their ultra low noise regulators).
  
 Here is what they do (sorry @Superdad- I know I'm oversimplifying it - but for summary purposes):
 1)Reclock the USB data stream removing jitter
 2)Impedance match the 90ohm USB link to the DDC (any impedance mis-matching create backwave reflections or echos that are problematic for the USB reciever).
 3) Improve Signal Integrity - to min PHY AGC created jitter and noise.
 4)Provide ultra low noise regulated power from an external source to the DDC
  
 I very slightly prefer the Recovery over the Regen with the F-1  - and it may be do to it's better clock.  Hard to say.  Both are great and highly recommended.
  
 Now I've done a few other things to the data chain to clean it up:
  
 Removed the USB feed from the noisy and busy PC board USB buss -  this is of course shared with other USB devices like a mouse and keyboard.  Using the Paul Pang PPA V2 Card - this runs on the PCIe slot - and has it's own TXCO clock - getting away from the PC board's el cheapo clock.  Additionally it can be fed an outside power source - I use an iPower 5VDC for this
  
  


  
 Now going one step further I have modified a Jitterbug into a VBUS +5VDC blocker - that is plugged into the PPA V2 card.  A LH Labs 2G split USB cable is then plugged into the modded JB - BUT only the data leg!  The power leg is left unplugged.  All power is supplied by the Linear Power chain.  The USB cable never 'sees' any USB power - even at it's head - none.
  

  
  


> Our LightSpeed 2G USB cable's bandwidth is four times USB 2.0's standard bandwidth of 480 MHz. Similar to LightSpeed 1G, the wide bandwidth of this cable ensures a low-jitter signal environment inside your DAC, giving you lifelike, bit-perfect music.


 
  
 So the only thing left is a Galvanic isolator - although I doubt in my system it would make much difference.  The Intona is a no go for me as it uses cheap SiTime clocks to reclock the USB signal.


----------



## rb2013

More from Uptone's John Swenson on USB noise:
  


> May 21, 2015 (from page 44 of the thread "UpTone Audio REGEN" on ComputerAudiophile.com):
> First off a bit of terminology that has been bothering me, USB is a bidirectional BUS, even with digital audio it is not a one way street, most of the data goes from computer to DAC, but not all. There are two sets of official terms to describe the ends:
> host/device and upstream/downstream. The computer is a host, the DAC is a device, the REGEN is a hub, which has upstream and downstream ports, the upstream points towards the host, the downstream points towards the device. I will use these to refer to connections on boxes. I will reserve the terms transmitter and receiver when dealing with actual data flow in and out of a port.
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

Now that last statement stands out - and I'm wondering if the F-1 is just less sensitive to the remaining MAC and PHY noise?
  


> By the way, just because a DAC is not very sensitive to external influences does not mean it sounds really good, there are lots of ways to decrease the sensitivity that muck up the sound. *The trick is decrease the sensitivity AND do it in such a way that doesn't decrease SQ.*
> So everybody that is tweaking their computers, using different cables, a REGEN etc are all still hearing the effects of the non-PHY noise. If we can figure out how to get rid of THAT, WOW, you won't know what hit you.


 
  
 Or can it be what DIYinHK comments about the new XCore 200 series of XMOS USB processors?
  


> The latest xmos xCORE-200 includes unique hardware divider and it is used to generate bit-clock from master clock directly.


 
  
 I'm not sure why the F-1 sounds so good - but I do know what my ears tell me and it's pretty amazing...


----------



## sbgk

what the usb device knockers are missing is that there is a lot of damage to the signal caused by the way the data is stored on disk, how it is retrieved and how it is rendered, never mind the o/s and computer environment. Hopefully what the F 1 is coming near to is a reclocker that is not influenced by the upstream effects and can heal the signal or accurately represent it. JS mentions upstream issues in his explanation, that is why these things are interesting to play with.
  
 Though rb2013 still expressed a preference for ASIO with x ms buffer, so something is still influencing the sq.


----------



## Caper

muziqboy said:


> Do you mind sharing the password?
> My F-1 should arrive on Monday and not sure if there will be Windows driver provided.
> Thanks!


 
 Check your PM


----------



## Muziqboy

Thank you!


----------



## Caper

muziqboy said:


> Thank you!


 
 No problem!
 Share your impression of the F1 when you get it.


----------



## Caper

*.*
 ----


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> what the usb device knockers are missing is that there is a lot of damage to the signal caused by the way the data is stored on disk, how it is retrieved and how it is rendered, never mind the o/s and computer environment. Hopefully what the F 1 is coming near to is a reclocker that is not influenced by the upstream effects and can heal the signal or accurately represent it. JS mentions upstream issues in his explanation, that is why these things are interesting to play with.
> 
> Though rb2013 still expressed a preference for ASIO with x ms buffer, so something is still influencing the sq.


 

 Funny that with the F-1 JPlay for the first time did not make a difference of note.  Actually running the ASIO without it.    Totally agree on the data and other OS issues - when the price drops will experiment with large SSD drives. 
  
 I think, after all these years, USB is finally coming into it's own as a very high quality music source.   It's taken some heroic efforts on the part of these audio designers - but the pay off is huge.


----------



## ccschua

hi Alex
  
 among all the power supply to W4S, which one did u use ? isnt that iFi measure the best among all and should be selected ?


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> hi Alex
> 
> among all the power supply to W4S, which one did u use ? isnt that iFi measure the best among all and should be selected ?


 

 Was that question for me?  I don't think Alex had a W4S Recovery or Remedy - I have both.


----------



## rb2013

Guess what arrived today?  Three nice XU208 boards!
  
 F-1, X-1, Q1-S

  
 I'll move this F-1 into my office system - then do the shootout with the F-1 (fully burnt in), X-1 (fully burnt in) and the modded Breeze DU-U8 next week.  Once the third F-1 comes I'll begin the mods.


----------



## rb2013

I tried taking some better close-ups of the F-1 board:


----------



## rb2013

Looking closer at the 'new' X-1 board there appears to be some changes.  And it's marked V1.1
  
 Most notable the use of a Murata

  

  
 So I'll burnin the 1.1V for the shootout.  Like the new one sounds better.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Subbed, the technology is way over my head, but would love to learn more! Thanks Bob for starting another great Thread!!!


----------



## ccschua

hi Bob,
  
  
 sorry. was wondering if iFi power supply lives up to its work ?


----------



## rb2013

wildcatsare1 said:


> Subbed, the technology is way over my head, but would love to learn more! Thanks Bob for starting another great Thread!!!


 
 The X-1 is running on my office system with my R2R modded DAC60 - an excellent pairing!
  
 Cheers!
  


ccschua said:


> hi Bob,
> 
> 
> sorry. was wondering if iFi power supply lives up to its work ?


 
 I have a 9VDC and a 5VDC iPower - they are really good for the $49 cost.  I'm using the 9VDC on the W4S Remedy spdif reclocker connected to my modded R2R DAC60 - sounds excellent.  The 5VDC is running the PPA V2 USB card.
  
 I tried with the Regen the 9VDC but preferred the TeraDak DC-30w with the DC iPurifier - but that solution is much more expensive.  I would recommend them - but for the F-1 or X-1  maybe a TeraDak X1/X2 with the DC iPurifer would be a great budget solution, although more then the iPower.  The thing I like about the F-1 is the flexibility on power options.
  
 You can also look at the iFi iUSB 2.0 + and DC iPur or the iUSB 3.0


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Guess what arrived today?  Three nice XU208 boards!
> 
> *F-1,   X-1,   Q1-S*
> 
> ...


 
  
*THANK YOU !!!!!   *





  
 Hi !  i wait for the outcome with the greatest interest. As i said this is my main concern these days.
 This is a very key element of the chain. 
 Sorry if i missed it ... how are they priced respectively ? 
 I have another technical question so wait one moment because i am assembling it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks a lot again for your excellent and extremely valuable advice
 Kind regards,
 gino


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...   R-Core transformer - they are the best at *PSRR (power supply ripple rejection).... *


 
  
 Hi again !  this is the technical question.
 I would like to ask you if you have seen any datasheet or measurements about transformer PSRR.
 Because it is possible to find very easily this kind of info for regulator but i have never seen them for transformer.
 I think this issue of the transformer selection is a little overlooked .... i hate profoundly toroidals for digital devices.
 I have a very trivial experience of mine.
 We were listening to a simple prototype of line preamp.
 There was a toroidal in the PS.   Every time we were switching on the light in the room a loud pop was coming from the speakers.
 We replaced the toroidal (a nice one by the way) with a EI type.  The loud pop became a weak click.
 From that moment i only like EI type for digital.  For they provide a much better suppression of incoming spikes and i guess disturbs in general.
 I guess an R-Core would behave the same.
  
 Another question ... do you think that a rightly selected mains filter before a toroidal can provide more or less the same PSRR than a intrinsically superior R-Core ?
  
 Thanks a lot again for the very precious work.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## hugoboss

another good news melodius have jumped to  x200 also the price is $216 not bad here is the link
  
*Melodious MX-U8 PRO XMOS USB Digital Interface latest Xcore200 series XU208*  
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/44130453324.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.khRCgM#detail
  
 the xcore 200 is no 3 choice


----------



## ginetto61

hugoboss said:


> another good news melodius have jumped to  x200 also the price is $216 not bad here is the link
> 
> *Melodious MX-U8 PRO XMOS USB Digital Interface latest Xcore200 series XU208*
> https://world.taobao.com/item/44130453324.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.khRCgM#detail
> the xcore 200 is no 3 choice


 
  
 IMHO the power supply in the Melodious is far from perfect, especially with dirty mains and without power conditioning upstream.
 I have the old one and the sound is better late at night when the electrical grid has less noise.   The mains noise suppression is not enough.
 A battery PS would be a godsend.
 Regards, gino


----------



## hugoboss

yeah i know buth the price is far lower then the su-1 which cost $320
 isn't melodius use talema transformer. i tihink it's quite good power
  
 is your old melodius use the blue color talema transformer or the green one bingzi transformer?


----------



## ginetto61

hugoboss said:


> yeah i know buth the price is far lower then the su-1 which cost $320


 
  
 Yes ! but my guts tell me that the SU-1 is exceptional.  When i look at the board i perceived the quality of design.  I am waiting for the shoot-out.
 The design looks better than the Melodious that is not bad.
 I would pay 320USD very happily for a definitive product like i think the SU-1 is ... but i have to look at the PS.
  


> *isn't melodius use talema transformer. i tihink it's quite good power*


 
  
 IMHO if the mains are perfect the toroidals are fine.   If there is dirty in the mains the toroidals having a greater bandwidth let everything passing through.
 Speaking of usb bridges my reference is still the Berkely Audio Alpha unit.  Look at the transformers. No toroidals.
  
http://easytubeamp.com/wp-content/gallery/berkeley-alpha-usb/berkeley_alpha_usb_001.jpg
  

  
  


> is your old melodius use the blue color talema transformer or the green one bingzi transformer?


 
  
 is this one here ...
  

  
*i would place a dc socket on the back *and try some battery PS to bypass transformer and diodes.
 like in the beautiful Hydra Z usb bridge here below ...
  
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj263/durant24/ZPM-Hydra-Z-6954_zpsldcmvwft.jpg
  
 in this way i could use a better and external PS.  Transformers always leak and vibrate a little ... i love external transformers a lot.
 And actually i bought a LiPo battery but then i knew that they tend to catch fire and disposed it on arrival.
 I will try a SLAB with some kind of regulation to get the needed 8-9V.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## hugoboss

yes that is the melodius
  
 maybe the price different is the quality of crystal inside.
 the f1 and su-1 use more better crystal from crystek. the melodius using some china gold crystal
 now melodius has join the xmos 200 camp
 i am sure not long gustard and breeze will also jump to x 200 chipset
 more are coming !


----------



## ginetto61

hugoboss said:


> yes that is the melodius
> 
> maybe the price different is the quality of crystal inside.
> the f1 and su-1 use more better crystal from crystek. the melodius using some china gold crystal
> ...


 
 Hi again !
 i can only say that the chain   _*HP office desktop > generic usb cable > Melodious > Canare AES/EBU cable > Apogee Rosetta 200    *_has given me the best redbook sound ever in my system.
 For this *my main interest would be the SU-1*, that is likely to be a sensible step up from the Melodious ... then i could be quite done.
 I have no pretense of high-end of course.  Just a musical sound with some detail.
 Moreover changing the pc source had a little impact on the overall sound.
 Regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> *THANK YOU !!!!!   *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I completely agree - these DDC have made the biggest SQ changes in my system - all for not much dosh.
  
 F-1 $179(Ebay free shipping), X-1 $69(Ebay free shipping), Q1-S $39 (Taobao plus shipping).
  
 You're welcome!
 Cheers


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> *I completely agree - these DDC have made the biggest SQ changes in my system - all for not much dosh.  *


 
  
 Hi and thank you very much indeed again.
 It has been my feeling since when i started with the Gustard U10 to pass to the U12 and then Melodious (i have still all of them), perceiving always an improvement.
 With the Melodious i already hear music ... but if i get a little more detail and soundstage for not much more money why not ?
  


> F-1 $179(Ebay free shipping), X-1 $69(Ebay free shipping), Q1-S $39 (Taobao plus shipping).
> You're welcome!
> Cheers


 
  
 i am thinking to wait for the full unit because of the AES/EBU out.   Maybe it is not necessary. 
 But the designer of the Berkeley Audio Alpha USB bridge spoke highly of the balanced digital connection.  And i tend to trust his opinion.
 I understand that with some DIY is possible to add a AES/EBU port to the board, but i am such a dog at DIY.
 So i am wating for the full unit that looks also nice by the way.
 Thank you sincerely again for you great work !
 gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi again !  this is the technical question.
> I would like to ask you if you have seen any datasheet or measurements about transformer PSRR.
> Because it is possible to find very easily this kind of info for regulator but i have never seen them for transformer.
> I think this issue of the transformer selection is a little overlooked .... i hate profoundly toroidals for digital devices.
> ...


 

 Yes  - R-cores are known for their noise suppression - torodials for the ability to deliver current (great for big amps).


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> another good news melodius have jumped to  x200 also the price is $216 not bad here is the link
> 
> *Melodious MX-U8 PRO XMOS USB Digital Interface latest Xcore200 series XU208*
> 
> ...


 

 Nice find! - but here is the issue - el-cheapo generic Chinese JYEC OEM TXCO audio clocks...poor power supply noise filtering- not in the same league as either the NDK SD clocked X-1 or the Crystek CCHD-950 clocked F-1.  Not to mention the F-1 ultra low noise ADI regulators, FPGA USB isolation (similar to the $600 Tanly).
  
 The Singxer SU-1 will likely have these too - so well worth the extra $100.
  
 BTW of the 15 or so DDC's the Melodious MX-U8 gave me the most trouble  - very poor QC in my experience.  So far the Singxer's have been superb.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Yes ! but my guts tell me that the SU-1 is exceptional.  When i look at the board i perceived the quality of design.  I am waiting for the shoot-out.
> The design looks better than the Melodious that is not bad.
> I would pay 320USD very happily for a definitive product like i think the SU-1 is ... but i have to look at the PS.
> 
> ...


 

 What I love about the F-1 vs the SU-1 is that ability to change PS's.  Beware Li Ion batteries are quite noisey - I have seen 300-400uv numbers quoted.  My PS chain is <1uv.  My experience is with digital - especially these femto clocks - noise is a major issue that have to be addressed.


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> yes that is the melodius
> 
> maybe the price different is the quality of crystal inside.
> the f1 and su-1 use more better crystal from crystek. the melodius using some china gold crystal
> ...


 

 Yes!  More the merrier!   Don't forget Tanly!  But the Singxer F-1 is a Tanly for 1/4 the cost - with the XU208.


----------



## rb2013

I posted back on page 7, post #94:
  
"So here is the interesting part - they quote the phase noise numbers for all three clocks:  the TXCO, OXCO, and the Atomic - so to compare to the NDKSD and the CCHD- 575:
 
Numbers in this order: Atomic Rubidum clock, OXCO, CCHD-575, NDK SD, TXCO JYEC (this is the 1st time I have seen accurate measurements for OEM JYEC TXCO clocks at 10Hz & 10kHz - these are often relabled 'Gustard', 'Melodious', 'Vanguard', etc...):
 
10 Hz:  -120dB, -110dB, -100dB, -112dB, -90dB
10KHz: -150dB, -140dB, -163dB, -156dB, -120dB
 
Soooo the at 10Hz the Atomic and OXCO are clearly far superior to the TXCO's even the NDK and CCHD - BUT!...  
 
At 10KHz the Crystek CCHD-575 crushes!  With the best reading by far -23dB better then the OXCO and -13dB better then the $4000 Rubidum clock.  The NDK SD is also excellent.  closer at 10Hz to the much more expensive alternatives - and not too far behind the CCHD at the high end.
 
Reminder the X-1 uses the NDK SD's and the F-1 the CCHD-575's - the el cheapo JYEC TXCO are not in the same league with either.  Yet these are the clocks that the Gustard, Breeze, Melodious use."
 
Now remember decibels are a power factor - with each -3dB corresponding to 50% less noise.  The Crystek CCHD a 10kHz is -43dB lower phase noise then the generic chinese TXCO! These have 10,000 times more noise!
 


> dB​power ratio​amplitude ratio​100​  10 000 000 000​ ​100 000​ ​90​1 000 000 000​ ​31 623​ ​80​100 000 000​ ​10 000​ ​70​10 000 000​ ​3 162​ ​60​1 000 000​ ​1 000​ ​50​100 000​ ​316​.2​40​10 000​ ​100​ ​30​1 000​ ​31​.62​20​100​ ​10​ ​10​10​ ​3​.162​6​3​.981​1​.995 (~2)​3​1​.995 (~2)​1​.413​1​1​.259​1​.122​0​1​ ​1​ ​−1​0​.794​0​.891​−3​0​.501 (~1/2)​0​.708​−6​0​.251​0​.501 (~1/2)​−10​0​.1​0​.316 2​−20​0​.01​0​.1​−30​0​.001​0​.031 62​−40​0​.000 1​0​.01​−50​0​.000 01​0​.003 162​−60​0​.000 001​0​.001​−70​0​.000 000 1​0​.000 316 2​−80​0​.000 000 01​0​.000 1​−90​0​.000 000 001​0​.000 031 62 ​  −100​0​.000 000 000 1​0​.000 01​An example scale showing power ratios _x_ and amplitude ratios √_x_ and dB equivalents 10 log10 _x_. It is easier to grasp and compare 2- or 3-digit numbers than to compare up to 10 digits.​


----------



## rb2013

Trouble in paradise - the new X-1 board V1.1 has now locked up Foobar three times this morning!  Not good - the V1.0 played flawless for over a 10 days 24/7.  I'd advise getting the V1.0.
  
 The last Foobar lockup - required a hard shut down.  Not just a simple close and reopen.  I have reinstalled the drivers and it locked up twice again.


----------



## BucketInABucket

I ended up springing for the new DiYinHK XU216 board as well as their PCM1704 DAC kit to replace my old DACMagic.


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> I ended up springing for the new DiYinHK XU216 board as well as their PCM1704 DAC kit to replace my old DACMagic.


 

 Nice - what are you going to power it with - the PCM1704 kit doesn't come with the DAC chips - they're getting harder and harder to find in 'UK' quality
  
 PS DIYinHK:http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/84-pcm1704-r2r-isolated-nonoversampling-nos-audio-dac-with-fifo-reclock.html
PCM1704 R2R Isolated nonoversampling NOS Audio DAC with FIFO reclock  
The best 24bit R2R DAC from Texas Instruments
Input with reclock jitter elimator circuit
PCM1704 DAC chip is not included
Promotion: Buy 2 get extra USD20 OFF!


----------



## BucketInABucket

rb2013 said:


> Nice - what are you going to power it with - the PCM1704 kit doesn't come with the DAC chips - they're getting harder and harder to find in 'UK' quality


 
 I happen to already have a DiYinHK 0.8uV 12V bipolar supply board and two DiYinHK 3.3V/5V 0.8uV twin supply boards so I'm just gonna use those for a start. Not sure which transformers to use though; the selectronic R-cores seem pretty attractive though. Also, I got my chips from this eBay seller.


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> I happen to already have a DiYinHK 0.8uV 12V bipolar supply board with a 30VA 2x15V R-core and two DiYinHK 3.3V/5V 0.8uV twin supply boards so I'm just gonna use those for a start. Not sure which transformer to use for the 5V/3.3V lines though; probably another two R-cores. Also, I got my chips from this eBay seller.


 

 That's the lowest grade -PCM1704 never was marked with a K or UK (edit only the original BB before TI bought them out- impossible to find NOS)- later TI/BB used just one or two dots - or no dots.  That's a U (no dot) marked 'K'.  Typical Ebay

 The U have much higher distortion due to looser tolerance of the resistors.
  
 Here is what a real UK looks like:
  
  
 http://datasheet.octopart.com/PCM1704U-Texas-Instruments-datasheet-5356068.pdf

  
 From my heavily modded PCM1704 DAC60 Mod Project thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
*How to identify PCM1704?*
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/60025-how-identify-pcm1704.html


> I bought PCM1704 K from Digi-Key. They do not have K markings, but two white dots.
> Attached Images


 


> I wrote to Texas Instrument regarding the dot markings.
> 
> Here is their reply to my query:
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

This was from an old post on Headfi:
  
 Real 'old' production before the dot marking - impossible to find:


 'U' class remarked fakes found on Ebay:


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> This was from an old post on Headfi:
> 
> Real 'old' production before the dot marking - impossible to find:
> 
> ...


 

 +1
  
 This seller has sold me fake parts before and then refused to pay for the return shipping of the fake part.
  
 In my case this was a high voltage mosfet, the measured breakdown voltage of the fake part was considerably less than the real thing and the circuit would have gone up in flames ...


----------



## BucketInABucket

Thanks for the help guys and I've contacted the seller to see if I can cancel the order. Any idea of where to get real Ks?


----------



## b0bb

bucketinabucket said:


> Thanks for the help guys and I've contacted the seller to see if I can cancel the order. Any idea of where to get real Ks?


 

 Quite difficult to tell without very expensive measuring equipment.
  
 1704s are old enough that you might get lucky at garage sales or news paper ads, they were quite common in mid to highend Denon and Pioneer DVD players and home theater AVRs of the Dolby Digital era.
  
 Ironic when, I think about it, China buys and recycles a lot of e-waste from the US and EU and some of us end up buying back the bits on Ebay, sometimes people sell parts of a PCB with the DAC still soldered on. That is a good chance those are real.
  
 New 1704Ks are extremely rare and fakes and remarked lowspec parts abound.


----------



## BucketInABucket

Hmm, it might be a better idea to get the AD1862 kit from them instead. I doubt I'll notice any significant difference in the sound if I do so. Another project I've thought about is modifying an old CDP to be a DAC but that's not something I should go into too much detail here!


----------



## b0bb

bucketinabucket said:


> Hmm, it might be a better idea to get the AD1862 kit from them instead. I doubt I'll notice any significant difference in the sound if I do so. Another project I've thought about is modifying an old CDP to be a DAC but that's not something I should go into too much detail here!


 
  
 The kits based on the older dacs do not have the digital filter included, this omits the critical 100dB/octave brick wall filter required by the CD Digital audio spec to remove the sampling artifacts past 20kHz.
  
 If this is left in, tweeters can be over driven and a lot of amplifier power is lost, metal and diamond dome tweeters and speakers like panels, estats and ribbons have no problem going up to 40kHz or more.
 Most power amps have a RF input filter but an analog filter with a 100dB/oct slope is not practical.
  

  
 The picture above shows single tones at 1kHz, 5kHz, 10kHz and 20kHz. The sampling artifacts are quite obvious and in some cases only 10dB less than the main tone.
 This is what the brickwall filter is trying to remove.
  
 Music is considerably more complex, in simple terms it is the summation of all possible tones between 20Hz and 20kHz.
  
 The kits are sold as NOS, to me NOS only refers  to the removal of oversampling, loosing the digital filter is not part of the bargain.
  
 The digital post-processing which implements the brickwall filter should be done before sending it to the dac, this can be done by the software player like JRiver.
  
 The digital filter in RB2103's unit is the DF1704, it is U2 in the picture on the extreme left hand side about the center.


----------



## BucketInABucket

I see a PMD100/200 filter in the DiYinHK kits, would this count as that kind of filter? I don't know too much about this kind of stuff tbh


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> +1
> 
> This seller has sold me fake parts before and then refused to pay for the return shipping of the fake part.
> 
> In my case this was a high voltage mosfet, the measured breakdown voltage of the fake part was considerably less than the real thing and the circuit would have gone up in flames ...


 

 And he has the gall to post the real one and the fake in the same ad!  I checked Digikey and they are not carrying the PCM1704 - just the DF filter.  They had them a few months ago - then I read in Absolute Sound in the NM24 review that TI was ending production.  These are not easy or cheap to make - much easier the D-S's.  Seokris came along just in time.  Get your Lite DAC60's while they're still around!
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lite-DAC-60-Hi-Fi-D-A-Converter-Tube-Output-Brand-New-/321461674743?hash=item4ad89be2f7:g:0~wAAOSw1S9Wg-k5


----------



## BucketInABucket

Wonder if this would be legit: http://component.iiic.cc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1852765
  
 I'm currently waiting on the DAM1121 from Soekris to come out tbh but he's having difficulties so best thing is patience


----------



## panhead

abartels said:


> Try the Boris Blank Electrified double cd, and  boris Blank & Malia cd's, they have same very high recording quality as Yello cd's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  listening to the Boris Blank on  Tidal and dancing!!!    thanks


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Wonder if this would be legit: http://component.iiic.cc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1852765
> 
> I'm currently waiting on the DAM1121 from Soekris to come out tbh but he's having difficulties so best thing is to wait


 

 Could be - get a real picture first.  If a 'K' is painted on pass.  Not that they aren't real PCM1704 - just the low spec U versions - sold at the top spec K prices.  I would do as b0bb suggests get a list of vintage CD players that used the old real BB (preTI) PCM1704UK's, then buy one of those and carefully remove the DAC chips.  Why do you think DIYinHK doesn't provide the DAC chips - unobtanium.
  
 Like the revered double crown TDA1541 - try and find a NOS set of those!


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> And he has the gall to post the real one and the fake in the same ad!  I checked Digikey and they are not carrying the PCM1704 - just the DF filter.  They had them a few months ago - then I read in Absolute Sound in the NM24 review that TI was ending production.  These are not easy or cheap to make - much easier the D-S's.  Seokris came along just in time.  Get your Lite DAC60's while they're still around!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lite-DAC-60-Hi-Fi-D-A-Converter-Tube-Output-Brand-New-/321461674743?hash=item4ad89be2f7:g:0~wAAOSw1S9Wg-k5


 

 That seller is quite the character.
  
 Digikey had the 1704U versions for the longest time, they are not too bad especially when the K versions are sold on strict allocation basis only.
 (TI only made the K versions only if a big customer ordered them)


----------



## b0bb

bucketinabucket said:


> I see a PMD100/200 filter in the DiYinHK kits, would this count as that kind of filter? I don't know too much about this kind of stuff tbh


 

 The advertising copy implies you get PMD200 like performance if you use windows since Microsoft bought the company, this only applies for the HDCD decoding.
 I did not see a PMD200 or PMD100 in any of their kits
  
 The PMD series are very old, the DF1704 is a better choice for the PCM1704, the PCM1704U is quite a reasonable choice given the availability of the K version.
  
 Analogmetric in Hongkong sells complete kits including the DAC chips and PMD100 if you are interested.
 http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=588
  
 PMD100

  
  
 PMD200


----------



## BucketInABucket

It seems like a ton of trouble to go that far to get PCM1704s so I've decided to cancel the order yes I am weak
  
 I had a look at analoguemetric already and they sell K-marked chips so I'm not sure exactly how trustworthy they are.
  
 I'm seriously considering modding a Philips CD753 or Marantz CD5000 to be a DAC now, but I know that's going to be a challenge and a half for someone of my calibre...


----------



## b0bb

bucketinabucket said:


> It seems like a ton of trouble to go that far to get PCM1704s so I've decided to cancel the order yes I am weak
> 
> I had a look at analoguemetric already and they sell K-marked chips so I'm not sure exactly how trustworthy they are.
> 
> I'm seriously considering modding a Philips CD753 or Marantz CD5000 to be a DAC now, but I know that's going to be a challenge and a half for someone of my calibre...


 

 Did you get your Soekris DAM1021 working ?
  
 I remember seeing your posts here and DIYAudio.


----------



## BucketInABucket

b0bb said:


> Did you get your Soekris DAM1021 working ?
> 
> I remember seeing your posts here and DIYAudio.


 
 Yeah, it ended up working in the end but I had to stop for a while due to school and by the time I could get back into it, I saw the DAM1121 coming out and decided to base my project around that instead.


----------



## riffer

I'm a big 1704 fan as well (Simaudio Moon Nova, Audio-gd Master 7) and it will be hard to see this chip finally gone.  My friend has a Mark Levinson 360 DAC and it is also very nice.
  
 I wonder if Kingwa at Audio-gd still has a good supply left?


----------



## Caper

When tracking my parcel I see that my F1 has arrived at my postoffice.
 I´ll post my impression when it´s connected.


----------



## Dimdim

riffer said:


> I'm a big 1704 fan as well (Simaudio Moon Nova, Audio-gd Master 7) and it will be hard to see this chip finally gone.  My friend has a Mark Levinson 360 DAC and it is also very nice.
> 
> I wonder if Kingwa at Audio-gd still has a good supply left?


 
  
 About a month ago I had the chance to compare my Soekris 1021 to a DIY DAC based on 8 x 1704K chips. We are talking hi-end design, costing over 3K€ in parts alone.
  
 Let's just say that I no longer envy 1704-based DACs.


----------



## Caper

Hooked up the F1, installed driver and no problem.
 First impression, nice!
  
 Will listen more during the day.
  
 I am using Jriver, any ideas wich driver to use for best sond?
 KS, ASIO or WASAPI?
  
 With Baby Breeze I used KS with good result.


----------



## Caper

Currently using KS with Jriver/F1.
 Streaming Boris Blank through Tidal HiFi.
 JAW DROPPING!
  
 I didn´t play this with Baby Breeze so can´t say for sure if it was close to this.


----------



## ginetto61

caper said:


> Currently using KS with Jriver/F1.
> Streaming Boris Blank through Tidal HiFi.
> JAW DROPPING!
> I didn´t play this with Baby Breeze so can´t say for sure if it was close to this.


 
  
 Hi !  could you list your chain ? 
*which OS *are you using ?
 thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## Caper

W7 64 
 Jriver using KS
 Intel NUC
 Sbooster Vbus Blocker
 Supra USB cable
 Aqvox PSU
 Intona USB isolator
 Supra USB cable
 F1
 Oehlbach coax cable
 Hegel H80 coax1
  
  
 Let the fun begin


----------



## ginetto61

caper said:


> *W7 64 *
> *Jriver using KS*
> *Intel NUC*
> Sbooster Vbus Blocker
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! very good and very thank you !
 you give me hope to get good sound from my win 7 pc (i heard bad opinions about it.
 Like an OS unnecessarily loaded with subprogramms ... but i did not understand well honestly).
 Congratulations for your purchase.
 It sounds like a really well designed and built device.
 Regards, gino


----------



## abartels

caper said:


> Currently using KS with Jriver/F1.
> Streaming Boris Blank through Tidal HiFi.
> JAW DROPPING!
> 
> I didn´t play this with Baby Breeze so can´t say for sure if it was close to this.


 
  
 Try the track Fat Roller, DEEEEEEEEP bass with lots of details in it


----------



## hugoboss

@CAPER 
 can you hear there is much change with f1 or without it
 can you hear enough difference that's not subtle


----------



## Caper

abartels said:


> Try the track Fat Roller, DEEEEEEEEP bass with lots of details in it


 
 Yeah 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also like the track I feel it like you from the album Convergence.
 Omg, my system never sounded this deep and detailed.
  
 Excellent mastering but maybe also the F1 makes that extra difference.


----------



## Caper

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! very good and very thank you !
> you give me hope to get good sound from my win 7 pc (i heard bad opinions about it.
> Like an OS unnecessarily loaded with subprogramms ... but i did not understand well honestly).
> Congratulations for your purchase.
> ...


 
 Yeah, heard same thing as you about W7 but I will not switch because I use MCE.
 Maybe I put another laptop with W10 as a dedicated musicplayer beside my NUC.
 But for now I am happy.


----------



## Caper

hugoboss said:


> @CAPER
> can you hear there is much change with f1 or without it
> can you hear enough difference that's not subtle


 
 I connected the F1 just one hour ago so can´t really tell anything else that is sounds really good.
 Did not compare it to anything yet.
 Will do a head to head comparison with the F1 against an old DVD player when the F1 is burnt in.
  
 Did that with my Breeze earlier, DVD won.
  
 Now I hope for another result.


----------



## ginetto61

caper said:


> Yeah, heard same thing as you about W7 but I will not switch because I use MCE.
> Maybe I put another laptop with W10 as a dedicated musicplayer beside my NUC.
> But for now I am happy.


 
  
 Clearly if high quality SW like KS, Jriver run with Win 7 it must be an ok OS for music.
 thanks again for the reply


----------



## ccschua

IT will sound better after more burn in. I am at 100 hour mark. it changes.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> That may not be optimal as the power feed from the Intona is around 400mA I believe (someone correct me if this is wrong) - certainly not enough to adequately drive the F-1
> 
> Hey Gino,  It is beautiful!  No internals yet - it should be out in May.  It (SU-1) is AC powered like the Gustard U12, Breeze DU-U8, Audio Gd DI-U8 - so no external DC socket.
> 
> ...


 
 FYI
  
 Just got the F1 a couple of hours ago.
 Sounds terrible...GOOD!
  
 I didnt put the Aqvox to feed the F1 directly.
 Aqvox feeds the Intona and Intona feeds the F1.
 Seems ok so far!


----------



## Caper

ccschua said:


> IT will sound better after more burn in. I am at 100 hour mark. it changes.


 
 Yeah, I read that burn in makes it even better.
 Noticed an improvement on my Breeze also after 100 hours or so.
  
 Been listening a a couple of hours now and the sound is very detailed but the bass...the BASS is in a level I never though my system would deliver.
 So deep and controlled.
  
 Streaming from Tidal HiFi with a big grin on my face


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Hooked up the F1, installed driver and no problem.
> First impression, nice!
> 
> Will listen more during the day.
> ...


 
 Nice! Let the fun begin...try the ASIO:XMOS USB Audio 2.0 ST 3086 driver - I much prefer it to the KS
  


caper said:


> Currently using KS with Jriver/F1.
> Streaming Boris Blank through Tidal HiFi.
> JAW DROPPING!
> 
> I didn´t play this with Baby Breeze so can´t say for sure if it was close to this.


 
 How about a track you played with the BB - sounds good so far
  


caper said:


> Yeah
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 




  


ccschua said:


> IT will sound better after more burn in. I am at 100 hour mark. it changes.


 
 Yes better out past 200hrs on mine...
  


caper said:


> FYI
> 
> Just got the F1 a couple of hours ago.
> Sounds terrible...GOOD!
> ...


 
 Well try the Aqvox directly
  


caper said:


> Yeah, I read that burn in makes it even better.
> Noticed an improvement on my Breeze also after 100 hours or so.
> 
> Been listening a a couple of hours now and the sound is very detailed but the bass...the BASS is in a level I never though my system would deliver.
> ...


 
 That's what floored me on the first listening - immediate increase in detail - but the BASS was jaw dropping - at least a 1/2 octave deeper and better defined.  And that was directly compared to a very well fed PUC2 Lite - which already had great bass.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Caper

A big THANK YOU to rb213 who shares his impressions and made me buy this litte fellow with the big sound!


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> A big THANK YOU to rb213 who shares his impressions and made me buy this litte fellow with the big sound!


 

 Cheers friend!  My second F-1 is playing dutifully and beautifully in my office system.
  
 I bet your DVD player is a little worried.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> IT will sound better after more burn in. I am at 100 hour mark. it changes.


 

 What do you think so far?  Much difference then the Pro3a?


----------



## rb2013

Reading in 'Hi-Fi News' the review of the Chord 'DAVE' DAC - wow what a piece of gear.  The lowest jitter measurements I've ever seen 8psec on 96k SPDIF and 5psec on USB!
  
 This sota $13,000 DAC/HP amp does not do i2s - but can do 384k over BNC SPDIF!  The first time I have ever seen that.  And get this it can output 768K/32-bit over a coax BNC connection!
  
 This was an interesting quote:


> 'Revelatory' is a pretty strong term to describe a piece of Hi-Fi equipment, but that's just what Chord's DAVE is.  Furthermore, while most of my listening was via the USB input from my dedicated Mac Mini, it's just as striking when fed via the optical and coaxial inputs...


 
  


  
  
 PS Edit - From the Chord website - checkout the Coax spec
 http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=98
  


> DAVE​ Chord Electronics has launched its most advanced DAC to date. Given the acronym DAVE,
> Chord''s latest-generation digital-to-analogue convertor features the very best conversion technology available, using proprietary techniques never seen before.
> 
> DAVE is a highly advanced reference-grade DAC, digital preamp and headphone amplifier. Hand-made in Kent, DAVE is based around a proprietary FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) offering more than ten times the program capacity of its predecessor.
> ...


 
  
 Was someone telling me that FPGA's add jitter???? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 
  
 PSS - Oh and somebody else was telling me that USB is a deadend and SPDIF a archaic deadend...well DAVE says no...


----------



## rb2013

For those with Gustard DACs - I found this post on my old Gustard U12 thread that might be of some use:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/2085#post_11785188
   
"There are four main twisted pairs of signals as shown in diagram for the U12 HDMI interface below.   On *one side only* of the cable you reverse the connections at 1 <--> 3 (DATA) and also at 7 <--> 9 (LRCLK) and that is all.  That is connect pin 1 wire to pin 3 connector and pin 3 wire to pin 1 connector, etc.  Easier said than done but shouldn't be that tough if you go slow and use visual aid if required. 

 
Edit: After modification you can connect either end to the U12.  Makes no difference.  Wireworld HDMI cables have removable headshells.  Expensive but the ultraviolets are pretty good."


----------



## rb2013

This may be of some help as well:
  

 http://www.psaudio.com/forum/directstream-all-about-it/directstream-i2s-input/
  

  
 And a $15 adapter board like this and some jumper cables:

 http://hifimediy.com/i2s-DSD-isolator


----------



## System54

rb2013 said:


> Cheers friend!  My second F-1 is playing dutifully and beautifully in my office system.
> 
> I bet your DVD player is a little worried.


 
 Hi,
  
 First of all thank you for reporting your experience. I also ordered the F-1 and I am so waiting for the result.
  
 Generally the wave io is said to be amazing.
  
 Do you have any experiences with wave io?
  
 At the moment I listen to music with a modified diyinhk i2s without isolator. The sound is extremly detailled in micro and macro. However, that is only after various modifications. Out of the box it sounds ok.
  
 I am curious what is possible to get out of the F-1.


----------



## rb2013

system54 said:


> Hi,
> 
> First of all thank you for reporting your experience. I also ordered the F-1 and I am so waiting for the result.
> 
> ...


 

 Hey thanks!
 Have not heard the Wave I/O - but a beautiful board - it uses the NDK SD clocks like the X-1 - but is based on the U8 not the XU208.  But maybe he has a 'solution' to the i2s hookup for the F-1.  Doesn't seem to hard.
  
 http://luckit.biz


----------



## System54

Is already known which function the fpga chip has on the F-1?


----------



## rb2013

Our team in the field of digital audio work for many years, at the same time get XMOS FAEsupport team, we conducted a number of technical improvements and optimization algorithms on the basis of the original firmware.


system54 said:


> Is already known which function the fpga chip has on the F-1?


 

 Well from the Taobao website - the translation is not to clear
  


> Source synchronous shaping technology and CPLD(FPGA)  technology, I2S signal isolation after the re-shaping; thus eliminating the isolation chip to bring added jitter.


 


> Our team in the field of digital audio work for many years, at the same time get XMOS FAEsupport team, we conducted a number of technical improvements and optimization algorithms on the basis of the original firmware.


 


> it is known, the weight of the core is digital audio algorithms. Our team in the field of digital audio work for many years, at the same time get XMOS FAEsupport team, we conducted a number of technical improvements and optimization algorithms on the basis of the original firmware.


----------



## ciphercomplete

Ok so I got my F-1 today and just finished a 2 hour comparison session.  FYI my headless media server pc is powered by an HD Plex Linear PS into the HD Plex Hi-Fi 250W DC- ATX.  I power my Uptone Regen with the 9v HD Plex output.  This first comparison was done using my speakers and I'll report any differences using headphones later on if necessary.
  
*5 minute first impression:*  I plugged the thing in straightway to an empty usb port with a mental memory comparison to the Regen ->Schiit Yggdrasil USB going on in my head. And I thought that the F-1 superior to the Schiit USB Gen 3.
  
*Down to business: *I took the Regen out of the system.  So its F-1 vs USB Gen 3 (no power filtering or usb reclocking crap in the chain).  Holy $h!t they both sound really good and damn near exactly alike.  I really don't think I could tell the two apart in a blind test.  The very tiny differences I heard were mostly in the F-1s favor - BUT those differences were usually along the lines of "I think it sounds like the music has a tiny bit more space than the USB gen 3" or "the drum seems a tiny bit more snappy with the F-1".  I never heard more detail from one or the other.  
  
*Adding the Regen to chain: *Nothing major happened.  Both solutions sound more consistent when being fed by the Regen if that makes any sense.  There was less variation in SQ recording to recording. They still sound the around 99.5% the same to my ears. 
  
 Both of these USB cards are super transparent.  Going from smooth recordings like Nina Simone's "I put a Spell on you" to newer digital instrument pop stuff is a jarring experience sometimes.  They both get you to that "its not the system its the recording quality" point extremely easily.
  
 My gut feeling is that the F-1 is the better card.  The Schiit USB has the advantage of feeding the Yggy straight I2S.  The F-1 has to convert to spdif rca and use an input that folks from Schiit are on record saying is inferior to the AES input.  My dream would be for Schiit to adopt the new XMOS chip and offer an upgrade.  I'm not super interested in the upcoming SU-1 for reasons already articulated in this thread by others (power supply) AND the fact that while I think the AES input is better than the rca, based on my comparisons using cd transport outputs, I know its not that much better and the comparison of the two somewhat mirrors my thoughts in the F-1, USB gen3 comparison. 
  
 My current situation.
  

  
 Ill switch back to the Yggy's internal usb after a week.  I also plan on putting my speaker building skills to use to build a small wood enclosure for the F-1.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
*UPDATE: *After a few more days of comparison my opinion is now that the F-1 is substantially superior to the Yggy's USB gen 3 input.


----------



## Muziqboy

I received my F-1 this morning and have been listening to it for a couple hours now and all I can say is a lot more micro/macro details, space between instruments, air, 3D holographic sound and the musicians have a lot more presence. This is cold out of the box and in comparison to the PRO3A that I was using previously. Can I call it PRO3A on STEROIDS!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I am powering it with the iFi micro iUsb 3.0 with the Gemini dual headed usb cable feeding my Theta DSPro Gen Va DAC.
  
 Can't wait until this thing is fully burned-in as I am sure that the SQ will still improve as per @rb2013's experience.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> Ok so I got my F-1 today and just finished a 2 hour comparison session.  FYI my headless media server pc is powered by an HD Plex Linear PS into the HD Plex Hi-Fi 250W DC- ATX.  I power my Uptone Regen with the 9v HD Plex output.  This first comparison was done using my speakers and I'll report any differences using headphones later on if necessary.
> 
> *5 minute first impression:*  I plugged the thing in straightway to an empty usb port with a mental memory comparison to the Regen ->Schiit Yggdrasil USB going on in my head. And I thought that the F-1 superior to the Schiit USB Gen 3.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!  Of course the F-1 with a few hundred hours will get better - so a draw to the Gen 3 straight out of the box - is pretty darn good.
  
 Looking forward to your listening updates and box making fun.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> I received my F-1 this morning and have been listening to it for a couple hours now and all I can say is a lot more micro/macro details, space between instruments, air, 3D holographic sound and the musicians have a lot more presence. This is cold out of the box and in comparison to the PRO3A that I was using previously. Can I call it PRO3A on STEROIDS!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Wow another stellar review!  Yes a Pro3a on STEROIDS!  well put!


----------



## Caper

Just for the fun of it I will do the first comparison of my F1 in a couple of day´s.
 Not fair at all but fun.
  
 I will put my F1 head to head to this:
  
 HP Latop W10
 Jriver with ASIO
 Jitterbug
 Supra USB cable
 Baby Breeze DDC
 Modified DAC decoder board with WM8741 and LM4562 opamp
 Hegel H80 analogue input
  
 This will be at my home and A/B comparison switching input.
  
 I am very happy how my F1 perform, never heard my system play with this richness and deep controlled BASS.


----------



## Maxx134

ciphercomplete said:


> Ok so I got my F-1 today and just finished a 2 hour comparison session.  FYI my headless media server pc is powered by an HD Plex Linear PS into the HD Plex Hi-Fi 250W DC- ATX.  I power my Uptone Regen with the 9v HD Plex output.  This first comparison was done using my speakers and I'll report any differences using headphones later on if necessary.
> 
> *5 minute first impression:*  I plugged the thing in straightway to an empty usb port with a mental memory comparison to the Regen ->Schiit Yggdrasil USB going on in my head. And I thought that the F-1 superior to the Schiit USB Gen 3.
> 
> ...




What cables and how long?

I have yggy and the Pro3a was superior to the Yggy Gen3 usb by a small margin about 10% better in spaciousness and delicacy while stock yggy sounded a tiny bit more agressive and forward and so was not as easily noticeable the space compared to that which the Pro3a had.

I am talking in critically minute differences if 5% range,
In other words referring to my previous question, 
What cables are you using?
Because to me this small range of difference are easily altered with cables.

I expected a much larger difference that what you posted,
 because it is already noted that the F1 is much better than the Pro3a. .


----------



## ciphercomplete

maxx134 said:


> What cables and how long?
> 
> I have yggy and the Pro3a was superior to the Yggy Gen3 usb by a small margin about 10% better in spaciousness and delicacy while stock yggy sounded a tiny bit more agressive and forward and so was not as easily noticeable the space compared to that which the Pro3a had.
> 
> ...




Im not a usb cable person. I tried it and heard no differences. YMMV obviously. In my case it doenst matter because i used the exact same cables for each.


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> What cables and how long?
> 
> I have yggy and the Pro3a was superior to the Yggy Gen3 usb by a small margin about 10% better in spaciousness and delicacy while stock yggy sounded a tiny bit more agressive and forward and so was not as easily noticeable the space compared to that which the Pro3a had.
> 
> ...


 

 Just to note that different systems - even with the same DAC will have various levels of success.
  
 Most critical in this equation is what SPDIF cable is used - I have found pretty significant differences,  So Yggy/Gen3 internal vs F-1 this is an important part of the link


----------



## ciphercomplete

rb2013 said:


> Just to note that different systems - even with the same DAC will have various levels of success.
> 
> Most critical in this equation is what SPDIF cable is used - I have found pretty significant differences,  So Yggy/Gen3 internal vs F-1 this is an important part of the link


 
  
 After all my years in this hobby I have decided I am not a cable guy but that doesn't mean I don't have any laying around 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  I kind of grabbed the first digital cable I saw on top of my pile.  I switched the BJC digital for an old Moon Audio Blue Dragon Silver but I didn't notice a difference.  I have others (I think?) but then I would be comparing digital cables and not the usb/spdif stuff.  
  
 In any event, and I don't know if you can tell what my current setup is by the pic, after almost 10 hours of warm up the combo of Schiit Wyrd ->F-1->Yggy is decidedly ahead of the Uptone Regen ->Yggy combo on direct comparison.  I'll do another mano y mano comparison (w/o usb reclockers) of the USB Gen 3 and the F-1 either later tonight or tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> After all my years in this hobby I have decided I am not a cable guy but that doesn't mean I don't have any laying around
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I understand on the cable front - controversial.  I've had good success - this is what I'm using now after rolling through a half dozen top digital cables.
  
 It was the cheapest of them all!  Audio Sensibility Statement 1.5 m(said to be the optimal SPDIF length) SE Silver S/PDIF (RCA/BNC) Digital Cable.  Great price now with the weak Canadian dollar.​  
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Statement-SE-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588/category=4059160
  
 That's what I've been running for over a year now.  a constant through all the DDC changes.
  
 But I have one of these on the way - just to give a try.  Should be here soon.
 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/digital-cerious-technologies-graphene-extreme-digital-1-0-cable-1m-2016-04-09-cables-85382-peoria-az?show_listing=true
  
 Well with a few hundred hours the F-1 will get better - sounds like it's settling in already


----------



## Currawong

My F-1 just arrived. I'm running it out of the iUSB 3.0 and directly via adaptors into the Yggy. Fantastic, liquid sound out of the box, whereas the Gen 3 USB sounded rather hard initially. I'll compare it to my benchmark, which is the Soundaware D100PRO, which I'm attempting to eliminate. The closest I've achieved is the iUSB 3.0 feeding an Audiophilleo 1 with Pure Power. The D100PRO can get the Yggdrasil to deliver piano notes down to the subtle harmonics of individual notes and the feeling of the hammer hitting, like you're actually standing next to the piano itself. I'll battle them off later on, but I hope this will mean I can ditch a bunch of unnecessary electronics soon.
  
 Edit: FYI the USB cable in the picture is leaning against the window so there's no pressure on the socket or board.


----------



## ccschua

surprise owner of F-1. will that connection break the USB socket ?as for me, I wrap it in antistatic package and hide it in my audio pc. I need to drill a hole so that it can support the RCA in the audiopc compartment.


----------



## lateboomer

rb2013 said:


> My chain:


 
 My F-1 is going to arrive these few days and I am excited. Looking at above setup, iPurifier2 is used near F-1 side, which reclocks and regenerates audio and power signals. I wonder why not use Regen instead iPurifier2 at F-1 side? Or Remedy Reclocker at F-1 side and Regen near the pc side? What is iPurifier2 advantage compared with Regen or Reclocker?


----------



## prot

ciphercomplete said:


> Ok so I got my F-1 today and just finished a 2 hour comparison session.  FYI my headless media server pc is powered by an HD Plex Linear PS into the HD Plex Hi-Fi 250W DC- ATX.  I power my Uptone Regen with the 9v HD Plex output.  This first comparison was done using my speakers and I'll report any differences using headphones later on if necessary.
> 
> *5 minute first impression:*  I plugged the thing in straightway to an empty usb port with a mental memory comparison to the Regen ->Schiit Yggdrasil USB going on in my head. And I thought that the F-1 superior to the Schiit USB Gen 3.
> 
> ...




Thx for the cool-headed comparison, hope to see some more of those. You can a/b relatively easily, e.g.
pc - usb - dac
vs.
pc-usb-ddc-aes-dac. 

Both the dac and the ddc connected to the same pc at the same time and you just switch the outputs in foobar/jriver/etc. No interruption in music, almost perfect for a/b.. and if you close your eyes and get a friend to switch it'll be an almost trustworthy a/b 

That's how I tested the previous gen ddc-s and the diffs in my setup were pretty much where you put em: in the last 0,5%. Although I'd put the puc2 a bit higher maybe even 1% with some recordings .


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  Of course the F-1 with a few hundred hours will get better - so a draw to the Gen 3 straight out of the box - is pretty darn good.
> 
> Looking forward to your listening updates and box making fun.
> 
> Cheers!


 
 Speaking of boxes.
  
 Did you find a box that takes the F1 without much modification?


----------



## Currawong

caper said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Nice!  Of course the F-1 with a few hundred hours will get better - so a draw to the Gen 3 straight out of the box - is pretty darn good.
> ...


 
  
 I was lucky to find one here that looks to be a perfect fit once holes are drilled:
  
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Superbat-DIYアルミ製ボックス-サイズ：4-33-2-08-0-98/dp/B00F87U9HE​


----------



## REXNFX

rb2013 said:


> Just to note that different systems - even with the same DAC will have various levels of success.
> 
> Most critical in this equation is what SPDIF cable is used - I have found pretty significant differences,  So Yggy/Gen3 internal vs F-1 this is an important part of the link



Is it even sensible to compare digital sources against digital sources? Much better to judge any improvements against an analog source or live music performance. Love this thread BTW!


----------



## rb2013

currawong said:


> My F-1 just arrived. I'm running it out of the iUSB 3.0 and directly via adaptors into the Yggy. Fantastic, liquid sound out of the box, whereas the Gen 3 USB sounded rather hard initially. I'll compare it to my benchmark, which is the Soundaware D100PRO, which I'm attempting to eliminate. The closest I've achieved is the iUSB 3.0 feeding an Audiophilleo 1 with Pure Power. The D100PRO can get the Yggdrasil to deliver piano notes down to the subtle harmonics of individual notes and the feeling of the hammer hitting, like you're actually standing next to the piano itself. I'll battle them off later on, but I hope this will mean I can ditch a bunch of unnecessary electronics soon.
> 
> Edit: FYI the USB cable in the picture is leaning against the window so there's no pressure on the socket or board.


 

 Nice!  No finer ringing endorsement! Did you have a Audio-gd DI-U8?  Thought I saw a post on that thread. 
  
 The Soundaware D100 Pro is a $800 unit - so even a draw would be a value victory.
  
 I totally relate to the piano description - one of the most difficult instruments to  get right - all those subtle overtones and the way they decay.  In my systems, especially the main one with the 5ft tall Maggies 1.6qr's does this now liker never before.
  
 My test track: George Winston – Album 'Autumn' – 'Longing, Loving'   Jaw dropping.
  
 What are you using power supply wise?  The iFi USB 3.0?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> My F-1 is going to arrive these few days and I am excited. Looking at above setup, iPurifier2 is used near F-1 side, which reclocks and regenerates audio and power signals. I wonder why not use Regen instead iPurifier2 at F-1 side? Or Remedy Reclocker at F-1 side and Regen near the pc side? What is iPurifier2 advantage compared with Regen or Reclocker?


 

 Great questions - I have both the Regen and the W4S Recovery USb reclocker (the Remedy - is a SPDIF reclocker - more on that later).
  
 Now I know this is against what Uptone recommeds - that is the iPurifer2 BETWEEN the DCC and the Regen.  But it works really well for me.  I slightly prefer the Recovery to the Regen in my main system - but both are very good.  The iPurifier2 needs power - since it reclocks the data signal - it also filters the power.  My USB from the PC has no power - I use a modded Jitterbug with the +5VBUS line clipped (and the ground) and a spilt USB cable the 2G - I use the data leg ONLY - the power leg disconnected.
  
 The iPur2 would not work before the Regen or Recovery - but now running after it's clocks are recieving the cleanest power possible.  TeraDak R-core DC-30W LPS with a DC iPurifier -that power (7.VDC) is filtered again by the Recovery's (or Regen's) ultra low noise regulators - that step down the USB power output to 5VDC.  Adding the iPur2 after the Regen and Recovery improved the dynamics and produced a smoother sound.
  
 BTW ditch the Regen hard adapter and the Recovery 6 in USB cable for a Curious 200mm USB link - nice improvement!


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Speaking of boxes.
> 
> Did you find a box that takes the F1 without much modification?


 
 They arew on the way - just ordered these - http://www.ebay.com/itm/111793783366?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 and this http://www.ebay.com/itm/172164443568?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  


currawong said:


> I was lucky to find one here that looks to be a perfect fit once holes are drilled:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.jp/Superbat-DIYアルミ製ボックス-サイズ：4-33-2-08-0-98/dp/B00F87U9HE​


 
 I found something similar but in a split case design - one a 100mm and the other 110mm.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/151333065047?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/161414428256?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Once they arrive I will begin mounting and drilling - found this hardware:
 http://www.amazon.com/Metal-Female-Screw-Standoff-Spacers/dp/B00AQTWYUY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00
 http://www.amazon.com/Motherboard-Screw-Insularing-Fiber-Washers/dp/B00511PK2G?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Mounting-Computer-4-Inches-Standoff/dp/B00032Q1J4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00


----------



## rb2013

rexnfx said:


> Is it even sensible to compare digital sources against digital sources? Much better to judge any improvements against an analog source or live music performance. Love this thread BTW!


 

 Thanks!  Yes my Analog system - both new and old are my litmus tests.  But something digital does best - ink black background - allows a new layer of subtle detail to be revealed.  In my system this really adds to the ambient effects of 3d point source in the sound field - emanating out in all directions.  Just like a live musician.  Spooky real effect on the 5ft maggies - life sized  with a palpable presence.  Tone has always been an area I felt digital could not match great analog - now rich natural tone.  Perfect attack and decay. What extraordinary audio is capable of...


----------



## Currawong

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Nice!  No finer ringing endorsement! Did you have a Audio-gd DI-U8?  Thought I saw a post on that thread.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, I have a DI-U8. It is good, but not as good as I had hoped. Maybe rebuilding the DI-U8 around the F-1 would be an idea. I don't know if it has I2S output on the board anywhere though. I also can't help wondering what the output of the Gen 3 USB is in the Yggy. It'd be nice to have an F-1 in there instead. Much neater, that's for sure.
  
 I'm using the power supply for the Aurorasound USB power supply with the iFi as their one isn't available here. It's the same voltage, but only 800mA. I'm not going to be running drives off it, so it will be fine.


----------



## ccschua

does F-1 need a driver for Apple to get 24/192 ?
  
 how about PC, without driver what is the limit ?


----------



## rb2013

currawong said:


> Yes, I have a DI-U8. It is good, but not as good as I had hoped. Maybe rebuilding the DI-U8 around the F-1 would be an idea. I don't know if it has I2S output on the board anywhere though. I also can't help wondering what the output of the Gen 3 USB is in the Yggy. It'd be nice to have an F-1 in there instead. Much neater, that's for sure.
> 
> I'm using the power supply for the Aurorasound USB power supply with the iFi as their one isn't available here. It's the same voltage, but only 800mA. I'm not going to be running drives off it, so it will be fine.


 

 I see - some folks have had success in upgrading the clocks in the DI-U8 to NDK SD or Crystek CCHD - a pain to do - but not impossible.  I thought of that path a one point - but now with the F-1 not considering it.  Nice they chose to use the expensive CCHD-575 - that was a smart move.  The F-1 does have the pinouts for i2s.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> does F-1 need a driver for Apple to get 24/192 ?
> 
> how about PC, without driver what is the limit ?


 

 Apple no - USB high speed audio 2.0 supported in the OS
  
 Windows - all you can get is DS - not a viable option when KS and ASIO are so much better.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> They arew on the way - just ordered these - http://www.ebay.com/itm/111793783366?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> and this http://www.ebay.com/itm/172164443568?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 
 Ok, thanks!
  
 I wll be having my F1 invisible so I already found a case dirt cheap.
 Dont know the english word for it but those you fill with water and let freeze to ice, use in cooling boxes.

  
 The hole where you fill water was a perfect fit for the coax output.
 Because the plastic is so soft it´s very easy to make hole for the USB connector.'
 Just cut it in half and then when mounting the F1 just push it overlapping together, very easy because of the soft plastic.
  
 Bought 2 for about a dollar 
  
 Good enough because it will be behind my furniture and no one will ever see it.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Ok, thanks!
> 
> I wll be having my F1 invisible so I already found a case dirt cheap.
> Dont know the english word for it but those you fill with water and let freeze to ice, use in cooling boxes.
> ...


 
 Nice and cool....


----------



## mhamel

I just ordered a case for mine - probably should have waited for it to come in to confirm measurements, but I'm pretty sure the board will slide right into the PCB mounting grooves on the inside of this case. Just a matter of cutting the end panels for the USB port and RCA jack.
  

  
 It's pricier than the cases from eBay/China, but I like the idea of being able to mount the board as mentioned above.  http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=194973126&uq=635966585713625721
  
    -Mike


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> I just ordered a case for mine - probably should have waited for it to come in to confirm measurements, but I'm pretty sure the board will slide right into the PCB mounting grooves on the inside of this case. Just a matter of cutting the end panels for the USB port and RCA jack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 What is the width of the case?  It may be to wide - if so just drill some holes (helps if it's a open or split case)


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> What is the width of the case?  It may be to wide - if so just drill some holes (helps if it's a open or split case)


 
  
  
 The board mounting grooves have a max of 52.4mm, but I'm not sure the min. width.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> The board mounting grooves have a max of 52.4mm, but I'm not sure the min. width.


 

 That should be pretty close, I measure 50mm on the board width.  Just a slide in mount would be easiest.  Let me know what you figure out on the USB side for cutting an opening.
  
 I thought worst case just leave that end open - or drill a really big hole.
  
  
 Good luck!


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> That should be pretty close, I measure 50mm on the board width.  Just a slide in mount would be easiest.  Let me know what you figure out on the USB side for cutting an opening.
> 
> I thought worst case just leave that end open - or drill a really big hole.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am not sure yet on the hole for the USB port, but looking back at the post with measurements, this may not work for the length. The case will accommodate the board itself, but it looks like the connectors extend quite a bit past the 99mm board size.  Replacing the RCA connector with a panel mount jack might help, but the USB port will probably protrude. 
  
 A panel punch would be perfect, but they're pricey and not really worth it if this is the only thing it would be used for, I think they're a bit over $100 for the tool. There's always drill & file and/or Dremel. Another option I've got is that I have a friend with a laser engraver/cutter. It won't cut metal, but I could do end panels out of wood, plastic, plexi and a few other things, He can cut whatever is needed, engrave text, etc.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> I am not sure yet on the hole for the USB port, but looking back at the post with measurements, this may not work for the length. The case will accommodate the board itself, but it looks like the connectors extend quite a bit past the 99mm board size.  Replacing the RCA connector with a panel mount jack might help, but the USB port will probably protrude.
> 
> A panel punch would be perfect, but they're pricey and not really worth it if this is the only thing it would be used for, I think they're a bit over $100 for the tool. There's always drill & file and/or Dremel. Another option I've got is that I have a friend with a laser engraver/cutter. It won't cut metal, but I could do end panels out of wood, plastic, plexi and a few other things, He can cut whatever is needed, engrave text, etc.


 

 One of mods will be to replace the board mounted RCA with a nice WBT NexGen - so that would be mounted separately.  Thinking of a drill then router for the USB.  Will see.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Nice and cool....


 
 This is my cool F1
  

  
 Case Frizet T 200


----------



## Maxx134

currawong said:


> My F-1 just arrived. I'm running it out of the iUSB 3.0 and directly via adaptors into the Yggy. Fantastic...



Hey you were cheating with those connectors instead of a cable! 
haha





caper said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Nice and cool....
> ...



I can't believe how good that looks...
 still waiting on my unit arrive.


----------



## Caper

Worth waiting for!
  
 I am in the beginning of burn in and it already sounds great.


----------



## leggoslave

ccschua said:


> does F-1 need a driver for Apple to get 24/192 ?
> 
> how about PC, without driver what is the limit ?


 

 Nope not doing hi-rez at all for me, not even 24/96. I'm on El Capitan 10.11.4.
  
 However, it's phenomenal on Redbook so far..best computer audio I've heard after a couple of decades faffing about.


----------



## Currawong

leggoslave said:


> ccschua said:
> 
> 
> > does F-1 need a driver for Apple to get 24/192 ?
> ...


 

 Open up Audio MIDI Set-up and make sure the output is set to 24 bit. If you don't set this, sometimes high-res wont work with programs such as Amarra.
  


> One of mods will be to replace the board mounted RCA with a nice WBT NexGen - so that would be mounted separately.  Thinking of a drill then router for the USB.  Will see.


 

 ​
 It did cross my mind to replace the jack, but for a direct connection as I intend to use, I either wont bother or I'll put a BNC socket on.


----------



## Caper

Just did a quick head to head comparison of the F1 and Breeze.
 Not quite fair though.
  
 Rig1
 Intel Nuc W7
 Sbooster vbus blocker
 Supra USB cable
 Aqvox PSU
 Intona 
 Supra USB cable
 F1 DDC
 Oehlbach coax cable
 Coax1 Hegel H80
  
 Rig2
 HP Laptop W10 Pro
 Supra USB cable
 Baby Breeze DDC
 Cheap coaxcable
 DAC decoder board, modified with wm8741 and better opamp also
 Cheap cables to analogue input on Hegel H80.
  
 Both streaming Tidal HiFI, same track.
  
 Rig 2 sounds really nice actually consider the cheap hardware.
 But my main rig with F1 totally smashes it, richer and again...that BASS is gorgeus!
  
 Next up is to skip the DAC decoder board and compare both to Hegels coax inputs.
  
 Edit: That comparison have to wait, I connected the Baby Breeze to coax2 on the Hegel when my wife came and gave the "evil eye"
 It´s 2:20 AM here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I could hear that this time...it´s more even with the Baby Breeze and F1 even though I have Vbus blocker, Aqvox and Intona in the F1 chain.
 But this was listening at low volume and hard to say.
 Report back later!


----------



## leggoslave

currawong said:


> Open up Audio MIDI Set-up and make sure the output is set to 24 bit. If you don't set this, sometimes high-res wont work with programs such as Amarra.


 
  
 Yeah checked that in Audio MIDI and tried everything in Audirvana+ and in Amarra Symphony as well but nope. The only way to play hi-rez is down-sampled to 24/44 in iTunes and that only seems to work for 24/96 files.


----------



## rb2013

currawong said:


> Open up Audio MIDI Set-up and make sure the output is set to 24 bit. If you don't set this, sometimes high-res wont work with programs such as Amarra.
> 
> 
> ​
> It did cross my mind to replace the jack, but for a direct connection as I intend to use, I either wont bother or I'll put a BNC socket on.


 

 Yes I was looking at a BNC socket - but my digital spdif cables are RCA.  I upgraded my Breeze with WBT Nexgen - and Mundorf Solid Silver/Teflon wiring.  It made a noticable improvement.  These CRC RCA have brass and maybe not the most exact 75ohm impedance.  Worth $35 to upgrade - it's an easy mod.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Just did a quick head to head comparison of the F1 and Breeze.
> Not quite fair though.
> 
> Rig1
> ...


 

 Had that evil eye many times!  Great results so far - and more burn in time will yield better results


----------



## Currawong

leggoslave said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > Open up Audio MIDI Set-up and make sure the output is set to 24 bit. If you don't set this, sometimes high-res wont work with programs such as Amarra.
> ...


 
  
 Try through a USB hub. I gather the odd Mac has USB hardware that doesn't agree with some audio gear.


----------



## ginetto61

caper said:


> Just did a quick head to head comparison of the F1 and Breeze.
> Not quite fair though.


 
  
 Hi !   is the Breeze stock or modded ?
 if modded could you direct me to any post that describes the mods performed ?
  


> *Rig1*
> Intel Nuc W7
> Sbooster vbus blocker
> Supra USB cable
> ...


 
  
 sorry but i do not fully understand the logic behind the test.
 If your goal is to really compare two sub to spdif converters you should test them with chain upstream and downstream completely unchanged.
 I mean like here below ...
  


> *Rig1*
> Intel Nuc W7
> Sbooster vbus blocker
> Supra USB cable
> ...


 
  
 that would be more telling, don't you think ?
 By the way, which actual Breeze DDC unit do you have ?
  
 I already have this one
  
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/BREEZE-AUDIO-supply-voltage-Asynchronous-USB-XMOS-U8-coaxial-optical-fiber-digital-interface-xmos-usb-dac/32458567820.html
  
 is this the Baby Breeze you mention ?
 Thanks a lot for the valuable information
 Kind regards,
 gino


----------



## Caper

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !   is the Breeze stock or modded ?
> if modded could you direct me to any post that describes the mods performed ?
> 
> 
> ...


 
 This is not a scientific test to separate my two DDC but more me having fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 To do a fair comparison I will need to purchase another Intona, Aqvox vbus blocker and put my laptop with W7 in Breeze chain, that will not happen.
 That way I easy can do a A/B comparison. of the units.
 But I will remove the Intona, vbus blocker and Aqvox psu from F1 chain and compare to the Breeze feeded by another laptop also running W7.
 That way I can easy hear the difference of my converters.
  
 I don´t have that listening ear I can hear differnce without A/B source switching.
  
 Yeah, your Breeze seems to be same as the one I have.


----------



## ginetto61

caper said:


> This is not a scientific test to separate my two DDC but more me having fun


 
  
 Hi !  this i understand and agree completely   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


> To do a fair comparison I will need to purchase another Intona, Aqvox vbus blocker and put my laptop with W7 in Breeze chain, that will not happen.
> That way I easy can do a A/B comparison. of the units.
> But I will remove the Intona, vbus blocker and Aqvox psu from F1 chain and compare to the Breeze feeded by another laptop also running W7.
> That way I can easy hear the difference of my converters.   I don´t have that listening ear I can hear differnce without A/B source switching.


 
  
 With this i agree less.   Let's say that the key issue is the selection of a USB DDC, an issue that i have also myself now.
 I had the Gustard U12 connected via AES/EBU to the dac.   The sound was quite good.
 Then i bought the Melodious, put it in the place of the U12 without changing anything.  I liked the latter better.
 Honestly i do not know if this can be called scientific ... but the sound was better, more musical.
 Another thing ... i am trying to simplify  the chain as much as possible.
 IMHO if the USB DDC is very well designed, built and powered (very important point) it should be quite unsensitive to what is upstream.   I am quite sure of this.
 To be clear, *a F1 powered by your Aqvox psu should be quite perfect with any decent pcs upstream and any dacs downstream*.
 and also cable issue should be very less impacting.
 IMHO of course.  This is where i am headed to.


> Yeah, your Breeze seems to be same as the one I have.


 
  
 Good !  i bought it some months ago but used only yesterday for curiosity  from its headphone out and it works.
 I will test it more seriously with a usb power supply i have at hand.
*But now i am quite convinced that the F1 is the real thing   *




 ... on the basis of both what i read here and also of its look.   It looks extremely well done.
 I am just waiting to have a look at the boxed version ...  i would really like to have the AES/EBU link option.
 Thanks a lot again.
 have a nice day ... gino


----------



## Caper

Shocking result from my comparison 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The Breeze sound almost as good as the F1, minimal difference to my ears.
 Streaming Tidal HiFi on both rigs.
  
 F1 has Intona, aqvox and vbus blocker in chain.
 Sound a bit crispier and just little more bass than Breeze.
  
 Breeze is feeded just through USB on a W10 laptop.
  
 There is a small difference but I expected more in favour of F1 but then again the F1 isn´t burned in yet.
  
 Maybe the small difference if because of the Breeze is feeded by W10 rig and F1 a W7 rig?
 I read that W10 has much better SQ than W7.
  
 Have to take another laptop with W7 to run the Breeze.


----------



## Caper

Rebuilding the F1 chain.
 Had vbus blocker on Nuc and aqvox to power the Intona.
 Put the aqvox to feed the F1 directly.
 Had to move the vbus blocker to intonas outgoing side because it will not get power if I dont.


----------



## ginetto61

caper said:


> Rebuilding the F1 chain.
> Had vbus blocker on Nuc and aqvox to power the Intona.
> Put the aqvox to feed the F1 directly.
> Had to move the vbus blocker to intonas outgoing side because it will not get power if I dont.


 
  
 Hi ! sorry if i stress ... could you describe the various testing chains  like this ....      *win 10 lap top > intona > Breeze ...   *
 you can leave usb cable out ... i see that you use Supra cables (very good indeed)
 i cannot follow your description 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks a lot, gino


----------



## Caper

Yes, of course it´s confusing for those reading my post.
 I will do that next time I post.
  
 I am really happy with the F1 even it´s not burned in yet.
 To my surprise the Baby Breeze is almost at same level, in my ears.
  
 I have to use a laptop with W7 also to run the Breeze, to be fair.


----------



## ginetto61

caper said:


> Yes, of course it´s confusing for those reading my post.  I will do that next time I post.
> I am really happy with the F1 even it´s not burned in yet.  To my surprise the Baby Breeze is almost at same level, in my ears.
> I have to use a laptop with W7 also to run the Breeze, to be fair.


 
  
 Thanks a lot !  keep on testing. But *why not use the Baby Breeze with the Aqvox power supply ?  *
 i see many trying to clean pc power with passive filters ... why not cut it completely and use an external ps like the great Aqvox ?
 I would never rely on pc for power.  Never.
 i have another one that is ok but nothing of spectacular. 
 Thanks again.  gino


----------



## Caper

DDC Shootout
  
 Rig1
 Intel Nuc
 W7 streaming Tidal HiFi
 Supra USB cable
 Intona isolator with vbus blocker on outgoing side.
 Supra USB Cable
 Aqvox psu
 F1 DDC
 Oehlbach coax cable
 Hegel H80 Coax1
  
 Rig2
 Toshiba laptop running on battery
 W7 streaming Tidal HiFi
 Supra USB cable
 Baby Breeze DDC
 Cheap coaxcable
 Hegel H80 Coax2
  
 Surprise surprise!
  
 The Baby Breeze is just a little behind the F1, really surprising.
 Things might change when F1 is fully burnt in but I am really impressed by the Breeze that are almost up to the F1 level, and this without Intona,aqvox and vbus blocker.
  
 Edit: Maybe it´s my cheap system that can´t really show the difference between F1 and Baby Breeze.
 It´s a small media system and not a fully grown up HiFi system.
 Hegel H80 amp with integrated DAC.
 Klipsch RP160M monitors.
 XTZ 10.17 subwoofer.


----------



## seeteeyou

rb2013 said:


> I remeasured just the board and it's 99cm x 49cm - I had a large crappy ruler before and since it was already mounted in my make shift case - no room to get the ruler inside,  So I had to eyeball it.  I found a better small metric ruler.
> 
> Those measurements are for the board only not the connectors that stickout


 
  


Spoiler: 54mm



仪表壳体 铝型材壳 外形尺寸:25*54*100mm 深度可变
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=1465134875
  
 铝型材壳体 电子产品外壳 25*54*100 ~
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7193447787
  
 铝型材外壳 控制器壳 铝壳AD-37:25*54*100mm（25*54*103mm）
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7359813199
  
 铝型材外壳 仪表壳体 铝材机箱 26*54*100mm 深度可变
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8476575106
  
 铝型材挤压/壳体/铝盒/铝壳/铁皮机箱/19英寸机箱6038 26*54*100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=12958007124
  
 JF-33 铝型材壳体 金属壳 控制器外壳 电源壳接线盒 25*54*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=14537729228
  
 铝型材外壳/铝壳/金属壳/控制器外壳/电源壳AD-16：26x54x100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=18250662623
  
 铝型材外壳 仪表壳体 尺寸:25*54*100mm 深度可变
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=24050548573
  
 8037 散热盒 铝外壳 铝型材外壳 电源盒 控制壳 25*54*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=35075226899
  
 8038 散热盒 铝外壳 铝型材外壳 电源盒 控制壳 26*54*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=35075326276
  
 铝型材机壳配前后面板 铝壳 26*54*100mm 深度可变
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=35461291181
  
 ZK-33a 车载外壳 车载控制器外壳 铝壳 小铝壳 21*54*85/100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=39291658259
  
 ZK-33 铝型材外壳 仪表外壳 控制器外壳 GPRS外壳 25*54*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=40449820450
  
 8037 通讯设备外壳 模块盒 仪表外壳 控制器外壳 铝壳 5*54*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=41685250813
  
 8038 铝合金外壳 屏蔽壳 仪表外壳 控制器外壳 铝壳 26*54*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=41727736586
  
 铝型材外壳 控制器散热器外壳 配前后面板AD-16：26*54*100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=42128530584
  
 ZK-33a 21*54*85/100mm 车载外壳 车载控制器外壳 铝壳 小铝壳
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=42361440960
  
 铝壳 铝合金外壳 铝型材外壳 控制器铝壳 壳体 屏蔽壳25*54*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=528299649620
  
 8037 铝型材外壳 铝壳 金属壳 控制器外壳 25*54*100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=523348401810


  
  


Spoiler: 53mm



仪表外壳 铝型材壳体 外形尺寸:26*53*100mm 深度可变
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=3981609214
  
 铝型材外壳电子产品外壳 ZXAD16 26*53*100深可变 ~
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7193237325
  
 铝型材外壳 电子产品壳体26*53*100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7193491249
  
 铝壳铝盒 铝型材外壳 PCB线路板接线盒 HY-16:21*53*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7786328534
  
 铝外壳/铝壳/铝盒/铝型材外壳/铝合金外壳/铝电源盒，30*53*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=17809258403
  
 铝型材外壳 铝壳 发射器控制器壳 AD-16 21*53*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=20664167425
  
 功放铝盒/线路板外壳/电源铝盒/仪表电子外壳规格100*53*30MM
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=37776409781


  
  


Spoiler: 52mm



铝型材外壳/屏蔽铝盒/电源铝外壳阳极氧化处理8129K 52*38*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=1513550705
  
 铝型材机箱 铝外壳 铝合金外壳 铝型材外壳 8129# 52*38*100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7124482793
  
 铝壳 铝盒 pcb外壳 电子外壳 线路板盒子 100*52*19.6mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7224887926
  
 优质外壳电源散热铝壳 铝散热型材外壳100*52*19.6MM（长度可变）
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=8346126342
  
 带固定孔铝壳/仪器外壳/电器机箱/PCB铝盒100长52宽38MM高
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=9530520378
  
 铝盒铝型材外壳/铝合金外壳/铝壳/车载外壳/功放铝壳52*19.6-100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=14274986712
  
 机壳 铝壳 壳体 机箱 机壳 型材 铝合金壳 仪表 仪器 52X38-100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=15232722593
  
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 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=16589298654
  
 19.6*52*100mm铝合金外壳 铝型材外壳 铝外壳壳体 铝制外壳 铝盒
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19635243052
  
 38*52*100mm铝外壳 整流器铝壳 分体壳 散热铝外壳 电源壳 出线壳
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=23743112482
  
 铝壳 铝盒 pcb外壳 电子外壳 线路板盒子 100*52*19.6mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=35732816016
  
 电源铝外壳 防雷产品铝外壳 分体式线路板铝合金外壳52*38-100
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 通讯数码接铝外壳 接收器铝外壳 精密仪器内置铝外壳52*19.6-100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=35856822567
  
 功放铝壳/线路板外壳/电源铝盒/仪表外壳 规格100*52*38mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=36764343009
  
 铝型材外壳屏蔽铝盒 /控制器壳/电源外壳/信号放大器壳52x38x100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=37106979396
  
 带固定孔铝壳/仪器外壳/电器机箱/PCB铝盒100*52*38MM
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=37754238633
  
 分体铝壳/线路板外壳/铝型材盒/功放铝盒100*52*38MM
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=37765273194
  
 优质外壳电源散热铝壳 铝散热型材外壳100*52*19.6MM（长度可变）
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=37768000156
  
 52*38-100mm 优质整流器铝外壳 散热铝外壳 分体式铝壳 电源外壳
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=38033833500
  
 仪器仪表机箱 塑料壳 分体式机箱 7-03:150*100*52MM
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=39842377213
  
 主板专用铝壳 控制器铝壳 52*38-100 散热铝壳 分体铝外壳
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=42018356356
  
 主板专配铝壳 开孔铝壳 开关电源外壳 52*38-100 阳极铝壳
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=42784396792
  
 精密铝壳 主板外壳 开关电源外壳 52*38-100 出线铝壳
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=42785872024
  
 52*20-86/100mm 铝壳 小盒子 数据外壳 USB外壳 充电宝外壳
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=43209707542
  
 6037过线盒 转换器外壳 GPRS外壳 定位器控制外壳 铝壳 22*52*100
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=523847640065
  
 6037 铝型材外壳 大铝壳 电源盒 控制器外壳 接线盒 22*52*100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=523869722068
  
 屏蔽器外壳/信息接收器外壳/52*38-100/铝型材外壳/铝外壳
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=527090752146


  
  
 One of the above seemed to be a good choice since they actually accept CAD or PDF files and the holes will be drilled for their customers accordingly
  
 ZK-33a 21*54*85/100mm
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=42361440960
  






 
  
 Is the thickness of F-1's PCB under 1.8 mm by any chance?


----------



## ginetto61

caper said:


> *...   I am really impressed by the Breeze that are almost up to the F1 level, and this without Intona,aqvox and vbus blocker*.


 
  
 Hi and mee too.  I am noticing that i have another Breeze older version.  Mine has also a dc socket that does not work ...
 May i ask which specific Breeze have you bought ?  a link to the seller i mean.  I see at least two different unit on ebay now.
 Thanks a lot.   Gino
  
 P.S.  i would not discount your system.  The Hegel is a quite revealing amp and so the speakers.  Then there is the old rule ... if it sounds very good it means that is at least good.


----------



## Caper

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and mee too.  I am noticing that i have another Breeze older version.  Mine has also a dc socket that does not work ...
> May i ask which specific Breeze have you bought ?  a link to the seller i mean.  I see at least two different unit on ebay now.
> Thanks a lot.   Gino
> 
> P.S.  i would not discount your system.  The Hegel is a quite revealing amp and so the speakers.  Then there is the old rule ... if it sounds very good it means that is at least good.


 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261932067307?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Exactly that one, good seller.


----------



## seeteeyou

rb2013 said:


> Well maye the turn key Singxer SU-1 coming out in May will gain some attention.  For 300$ pretty sweet.  I do prefer the F-1, as it's power supply is more flexible and so can be upgraded easily, if not inexpensively.  Modding the SU-1 will likely require heavy duty PS mods like Alex did on the Melodious MX-U8.  But at least it has the Cyrstek CCHD clocks as std. - that's a PIA mod.


 
  
 Could we talk to Singxer and ask them about upgrading PSU to this one by any chance?
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=526099996260
  




  
 Simon's OCC silver transformers are pretty much the "gold standard" in China, even TeraDak began offering Simon's OFC copper version recently
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=525214991618


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *Caper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261932067307?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> Exactly that one, good seller.


 
 Thanks a lot again


----------



## Caper

ginetto61 said:


> Thanks a lot again


 
 Inga problem!
 No problem!


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> Could we talk to Singxer and ask them about upgrading PSU to this one by any chance?
> 
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=526099996260
> 
> ...


 

 Boy that would be nice!  $465 highly doubtful. Also the LDO's that Singxer would use are important - some like the ones Melodious used in the MX-U8 overheat - they had to add heat sinks.
  
 My next PS will be a Paul Hynes - it does not have adjustable voltage so I need to know what my final system will look like.  Or possibly the new Uptone linear power supply that is due ot be released soon.  Hynes is known for his excellent shunt regulators:
  


> *Paul Hynes Design*
> 
> 
> *Supply Regulation*
> ...


 
  
 http://www.paulhynesdesign.com


----------



## motberg

IMHO this method* from your post 451 seems to me to be optimal.
 You should not have the Aqvox after the Intona due to possibly losing the isolation of the data and power lines.
 Also, my guess is the Aqvox blocks the 5V as it replaces it - so maybe do not need the SBooster vbus blocker
 If you need more/different power for the F1, it should be battery or i$olated PS... but it seems to work OK as per your original comments in post 451.
 Maybe use the shorter cable between the Intona and F1.
 If you want to reclock after the Intona, you can add a battery/isolated powered Regen or Recovery, but probably not necessary with the F1 reported capabilities.
  
 *Rig1
 Intel Nuc W7
 Sbooster vbus blocker (probably do not need.. just adding extra connectors)
 Supra USB cable
 Aqvox PSU
 Intona
 Supra USB cable
 F1 DDC
 Oehlbach coax cable
 Coax1 Hegel H80


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !  this i understand and agree completely
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have had the Aqvox ps for many years - it's ok - but by no means a top draw linear power supply.  I would say the new iFi iPowers are better (even being SMPS).  The BReezes are very good but not as good in my system as the DXIO Pro3a or the PUC2 Lite.  The F-1 is in a class all by it's self.  Now it all depends on your system and how resolving it is in the rest of the playback chain to hear the differences.
  
 In my office system (Bada Class A hybird amp (modded with upgraded Mundorf Supreme SIlver/Gold/Oil caps/HG tubes) Ref 3a Dulcet Be, Tellurium Q Black Sp cables, Aural Thrill Silver/Teflon IC - long PS filtering chain - running TeraDak X1/X2 to a Regen then to the F-1).  Putting the F-1 in made a noticibale difference - just greater detail and richer tone.  But due to the Dulcetts being monitors the full bass impact was not as noticible.
  
 Now in my main system the differences with the F-1 were shocking!  The Maggie 1-6qr's are just so transparent and resolving - last night again going through old stuff - and the SQ improvement was immediately there.
  
 So it will depend on the refinement and quality of the down stream part of the playback chain.  But also on how the F-1 is fed.
  
 Highly recommend using a W4S Recovery or Uptone Regen and ext LPS power supply (min an iPower).
  
 Just to update I tried a different PS chain - the iFi iUSB2.0 + the iFi iPurifier2 (iFi says this is 90% of a iUSB 3.0) - and not nearly as good as the TeraDak DC-30W + DC iPurifie>Recovery>Curious USB 200mm link>iPurifier2>F-1.
  
 So to get the absolute best out of the F-1 - a top drawn PS and data chain will be needed.
  
 Aqvox:


 TeraDak DC-30w:


 iFi DC iPurifier:


 Wyred for Sound Recovery:

  

  
 My chain: Teslaplex (wall)>Audience aR1p>Art Audio AC line filter PB4X4 Pro>Cerious Graphene Extreme power chord>TeraDak DC-30W>DC iPurifier>W4S Recovery>Curious USB 200mm link>iPurifier2>f-1


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> IMHO this method* from your post 451 seems to me to be optimal.
> You should not have the Aqvox after the Intona due to possibly losing the isolation of the data and power lines.
> Also, my guess is the Aqvox blocks the 5V as it replaces it - so maybe do not need the SBooster vbus blocker
> If you need more/different power for the F1, it should be battery or i$olated PS... but it seems to work OK as per your original comments in post 451.
> ...


 

 I tried an excellent 16,000 mAh Li Ion battery - no where near as good as a low noise LPS.  Just seemed to lack dynamics and resolution.

 The Regen and the Recovery made a significant improvement in the SQ of the F-1 - HIGHLY RECOMMENDED~!


----------



## rush1

Dear All, Pardon me as newbie on the subject for asking... Is the F-1 XU208 to be used like USB-SPDIF converter? thus to be placed between USB source and DAC?


----------



## rb2013

rush1 said:


> Dear All, Pardon me as newbie on the subject for asking... Is the F-1 XU208 to be used like USB-SPDIF converter? thus to be placed between USB source and DAC?


 

 Yes exactly.  It's plug and play ready (but needs a case)- but for best performance a separate power fed - not from the PC USB is required.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rush1

rb2013 said:


> Yes exactly.  It's plug and play ready (but needs a case)- but for best performance a separate power fed - not from the PC USB is required.
> 
> Cheers!


 

 Ahh... thank you for the speedy answer rb2013, it is a reason to start a new project then


----------



## rb2013

rush1 said:


> Ahh... thank you for the speedy answer rb2013, it is a reason to start a new project then


 

 You won't be sorry!


----------



## seeteeyou

rb2013 said:


> Boy that would be nice!  Also the LDO's that Singxer would use are important - some like the ones Melodious used in the MX-U8 overheat - they had to add heat sinks.


 
  
 Ouch, not enough room for a larger PSU internally according to their own pictures
  








  
  
 Now it's official, SU-1 will come with Talema 7XXXX series
  
 http://nuvotem.com/en/products/std_pcb2x115v.shtml
 http://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/7xxxx-series/35627


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> Ouch, not enough room for a larger PSU internally according to their own pictures
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Bravo!  Nice get  - Su-1 nudies...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
  
 PS:  Ok Crystek clocks nice!  Pannie FC caps - nice!  Would like to see which LDO's they use on the AC PS.  It looks like a Schurter type AC  - wonder if it has any filtering.
  
 One thing I like about the TeraDak R-core DC-30W - well for one an R-Core transformer - also AC line filtering.
 The F-1 is going to be just fine for me.


----------



## rb2013

Well for those non-DIYer who want i2s - that's your baby.
 https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.kq275g#detail
  


> ```
> [color=rgb(33, 33, 33)][left] Live HDMI-I2S output configurations :         SU-1 can be configured via DIP switch is HDMI-I2S, 1-4 switch arranged corresponding HDMI PIN13-16 feet. Pull to on position , it means there is DSD_ON HDMI PIN function .        Switch 5 is to configure HDMI PIN1-3 and PIN7-9 phase , ON when the positive phase , OFF is inverted. ( Note : ON , they can and Costa de decoder matching ; OFF when you can and PS AUDIO match ) .        Production version of the chassis , this switch will be made ​​on the back panel of the chassis backplane will open a square hole , no need to open the chassis can also be configured .[/left][/color]
> ```


----------



## Caper

motberg said:


> IMHO this method* from your post 451 seems to me to be optimal.
> You should not have the Aqvox after the Intona due to possibly losing the isolation of the data and power lines.
> Also, my guess is the Aqvox blocks the 5V as it replaces it - so maybe do not need the SBooster vbus blocker
> If you need more/different power for the F1, it should be battery or i$olated PS... but it seems to work OK as per your original comments in post 451.
> ...


 
 I will go back to that setting, thank you!
 Imagined that the SQ was slightly better when aqvox was before the Intona but could be wrong about that.
 Have shortest possible Supra USB cables already.


----------



## seeteeyou

It looked like SU1_V1.3 on the right, could that be the 4th try with 3 revisions then?
  





 
  
  
 Could that DC power connector (on the left) be unplugged and replaced with something like this?
  
 http://www.banggood.com/2Pin-Connector-Cable-To-DC-Female-For-LED-Strip-35285050-SMD-p-963351.html
 http://www.depo-led.com/connector/196-smd-3528-led-strip-8mm-2pin-clip-to-dc-socket.html
  





 
  
 Alternatively, maybe they'll let us know the voltage and then some kinda custom-made DC cables could be directly connected to that DC power connector on SU1_V1.3 PCB itself?


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> It looked like SU1_V1.3 on the right, could that be the 4th try with 3 revisions then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Good question - wonder if a circuit diagram will be available.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> I will go back to that setting, thank you!
> Imagined that the SQ was slightly better when aqvox was before the Intona but could be wrong about that.
> Have shortest possible Supra USB cables already.


 

 I tried the Supra USB - not bad - just sold it for $39.
  
 Try one of these between the Intona and the F-1:
 Curious USB 200mm link  they are $120 includes shipping
 http://www.curiouscables.com/buy.html


----------



## seeteeyou

rb2013 said:


> Good question - wonder if a circuit diagram will be available.


 
  
 So far it does look like DC 5V to me
  




  
  
 BTW, that seemed to be "awfully" close to the connectors from one of those 5V CPU fans
  
 http://www.amazon.com/KD0504PKB2-1-0W-2wire-Cooling-shipping/dp/B00IWNO3X2
  




  
 http://www.amazon.com/RUNDA-4010-0-18A-2Wire-Cooling/dp/B0148GCTU0


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> So far it does look like DC 5V to me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well it looks like the SU-1 offers nothing for me that the F-1 doesn't and I can change PS at will.  So I'm good.


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> Well it looks like the SU-1 offers nothing for me that the F-1 doesn't and I can change PS at will.  So I'm good.


 
 Hi rb2013, nice shot of the SU-1!
 Since I don't want i2s, only coax, how could I achieve better PS? I mean, I'd like to replace usb 5v bus from my PC which is crappy: can do that only with usb splitter such as LHlabs lightspeed 2G?
 Or with some soldering I can add a DC outlet to feed the board and use a cheaper iFi iPower?
 Thanks


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> I have had the Aqvox ps for many years - it's ok - but by no means a top draw linear power supply.  I would say the new iFi iPowers are better (even being SMPS).
> The BReezes are very good but not as good in my system as the DXIO Pro3a or the PUC2 Lite.  The F-1 is in a class all by it's self.
> *Now it all depends on your system and how resolving it is in the rest of the playback chain to hear the differences.*
> In my office system (Bada Class A hybird amp (modded with upgraded Mundorf Supreme SIlver/Gold/Oil caps/HG tubes) Ref 3a Dulcet Be, Tellurium Q Black Sp cables, Aural Thrill Silver/Teflon IC - long PS filtering chain - running TeraDak X1/X2 to a Regen then to the F-1).  Putting the F-1 in made a noticibale difference - just greater detail and richer tone.  But due to the Dulcetts being monitors the full bass impact was not as noticible.
> ... 
 Hi and thanks again for the very helpful advice. 
 I understand very well your point.  Then my dilemma is ... what to do if the system resolution is only average ?
 I do no think that a better component can in any way damage the overall outcome, actually i believe the contrary.  The better the better. 
 I see mentioned power supply, filters and reclockers.   
*Leaving aside for a moment the reclockers *and focusing only ps and filters i would like to rank the units on the basis of your experience
 With the best on top
  
*Power supplies*

Teradak DC-30W
iFi Power
Aqvox
  
*Filters *

iFi DC purifier
  
 I could start buying* a Teradak 5VDC/30W +  iFi DC purifier* to be used to power a usb powered DDC like *the F-1 as 1st choice or in the 2nd choice the Baby Breeze ?*
 Given that my system is far from resolving could this be a good start ?    
 I would like to avoid to have a too complex chain before the dac.   
 Thanks a lot again for the very precious advice. 
 A very interesting thread indeed.  
 Regards,  gino


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Hi rb2013, nice shot of the SU-1!
> Since I don't want i2s, only coax, how could I achieve better PS? I mean, I'd like to replace usb 5v bus from my PC which is crappy: can do that only with usb splitter such as LHlabs lightspeed 2G?
> Or with some soldering I can add a DC outlet to feed the board and use a cheaper iFi iPower?
> Thanks


 
 Great question - 4 ways to do that - here they are from simpliest most complex:
  
 1) Install a PCIe card like the Paul Pang V2 - use the ext power bracket - feed with anything from a $49 iFi iPower 5VDC to a better Linear Power Supply (LPS)


 2) Split cable like the LH Labes 2G ($200) or the Forza Audio Twin Copper split ($79) - run the power leg to something like a TeraDak X1 or iFi USB 2.0 or 3.0.  Teradak X1/X2 is around $80

 3) My recommended way - use a reclocker like the Uptone Regen ($189) or W4S Recovery ($199) - feed the ext power connection with a iFi iPower (9VDC) $49 or LPS like the TeraDak (X1 $80 or DC-30W $150).  Power is then cleaned - data is reclocked and signal integrity is improved.
  
 4) My path a combination of the above using several stages to clean the power and the data chain.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks again for the very helpful advice.
> I understand very well your point.  Then my dilemma is ... what to do if the system resolution is only average ?
> I do no think that a better component can in any way damage the overall outcome, actually i believe the contrary.  The better the better.
> I see mentioned power supply, filters and reclockers.
> ...


 

 Yes - a good place to start.  The F-1 at $179 is a true bargain - now how much of an improvement you might witness will depend on your system.  I don't think it could hurt the sound.  The route for the PS is quite flexible as the TeraDak's have variable voltages  - so can be set for 5VDC or 7VDC or 9VDC - depending on what device you are using.  The cheaper TeraDak X1/X2 even has a USB port set for 5VDC - so it's plug and play (and included a USB power cable) - but also has a 2.5mm DC port that can be set for say 8-9 VDC for the Regen or Recovery.  How do you beat that for $80!  OK it doesn't have the cleanest regulators - so a DC Ipurifer can be added.  The use of a reclocker like the Regen and Recovery is helpful as they also have ultra low noise regulators built in.

  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/TeraDak-TeraLink-X1-X2-DC8-5V-1A-USB-DC5V-port-Linear-Power-Supply-/181467993450?hash=item2a4055d56a:g:LzQAAOxyVVJR~9Nv


----------



## rb2013

Oh I should mention the X-1 for $69 - way cheaper then the Baby Breeze.  Killer good in it's own right - I would rate it rte there with the DXIO Pro3a (maybe better) ahead of a stock Breeze.  I need to run it in my main system to compare to my modded Breeze and F-1 - will do so soon.
  
 NDK SD clocks, XU208 1000MIPS XMOS, 4 layer board, ultra low noise ADI regulators!  $69!!!  Ridiculus.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-1-XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-Module/111960651117?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D36469%26meid%3Dd1177c45bb094bf0b31c604ad645d4e9%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D111961717820


----------



## wakka992

Mmmmm... ok:
  
 considering F-1 board, linear power supply, Splitted usb cable from forza audio (tnx for that, didn't know they had it)... It cost the same as the SU-1!!
  
 Wouldn't be better quality wise to buy the complete SU-1 instead of doing the chain? Remember I'd be using only coax...


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Mmmmm... ok:
> 
> considering F-1 board, linear power supply, Splitted usb cable from forza audio (tnx for that, didn't know they had it)... It cost the same as the SU-1!!
> 
> Wouldn't be better quality wise to buy the complete SU-1 instead of doing the chain? Remember I'd be using only coax...


 

 Not even close imo - that LPS would be better and you'll need a decent USb cable anyway.  In the long run you'll have greater flexiblty - like adding a DC iPur down the road


----------



## audioelements

My first impression for the F-1 XMOS USB interface : 5 stars.
  
 I got my F-1 board yesterday. The build quality is better than what I expected, better than it on the pictures. The first thing made me very happy was that it worked with my little Linux-based single board music server. Then, I am getting happier and happier after I started listening.
  
 I'd agree both reviews from rb2013 and Caper. The treble was very detailed - but not edgy or digitized. The base was much better than anything I've heard before with my speaker setup. But the most that surprised me was that I started to believe in the first time that digital music will soon be able to have a real battle with vinyl recordings. My teenage son walked by and thought the music was coming from my vinyl setup - that never happened before. The treble was clear so that I heard wider and deeper sound stage. The base was extended. In addition to the treble and base, the mid range (human voice, etc) were very good too. Altogether, it sounded well balanced and clean. As the result, everything sounded both natural and neutral to me. I lost my interest very quickly in analyzing the SQ of the board. The music draw my attention more than ever. It just sounded right. After two - three hours listening, the sound even improved (the burn-in).
  
 In case of considering the synergy of a specific system, I would say that it was on the "warm" side to me (the rest of my system is on the resolution side - tube pre and power driving B&W N805s). It brought out a lot of details, but it did not draw my intention on those details (like some of the Sabre 9018 based DACs do) - The details were there, but they didn't yield at you. I am using a R-2R DAC (Schiit Gungnir Multibit) and I felt it was warm. but I would bet that this board would fit very well to most sigma-delta DACs.
  
 One note about the circuit. I compared the pictures of F-1 with the SU-1. One difference is that the F-1 is "fully" isolated between the USB side and the "wave reshaping/recover" side after the GMR chips. However, the power for the second part is from a DC-DC converter (the big-tall-black box) in the middle of the board. I suspect these DC-DC converter would generate noises. In the SU-1, the power supply of the second part is LPS 5v (the black and red wires). I am thinking to remove it and supply clean power to the second part of the circuit - there are holes on the board reserved for this purpose. But for now, I would just sit down and listen to my CDs.


----------



## sbgk

audioelements said:


> My first impression for the F-1 XMOS USB interface : 5 stars.
> 
> I got my F-1 board yesterday. The build quality is better than what I expected, better than it on the pictures. The first thing made me very happy was that it worked with my little Linux-based single board music server. Then, I am getting happier and happier after I started listening.
> 
> ...


 
 Excellent, like the variation on 'even my wife thought it sounded good', lol. Getting mine next week. Will be interesting to see if you pursue the improved ps ideas.


----------



## rb2013

audioelements said:


> My first impression for the F-1 XMOS USB interface : 5 stars.
> 
> I got my F-1 board yesterday. The build quality is better than what I expected, better than it on the pictures. The first thing made me very happy was that it worked with my little Linux-based single board music server. Then, I am getting happier and happier after I started listening.
> 
> ...


 

 Great review!  I'm very interested in your ideas on removing the DC-DC converter.  Gathering up good modding ideas!


----------



## mourip

I would be particularly interested in any comparisons with either the Berkeley Alpha USB or the Mutec MC3+ USB units. I have the Mutec and am using the AES out into my Yggy that is in my speaker system. It really made a nice difference in my system as compared to Yggy's USB input. I use it with an REGEN Amber.
  
 I would love to put one in my headphone system but they are a bit pricey. I would jump on the F1 if it was close...
  
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> I would be particularly interested in any comparisons with either the Berkeley Alpha USB or the Mutec MC3+ USB units. I have the Mutec and am using the AES out into my Yggy that is in my speaker system. It really made a nice difference in my system as compared to Yggy's USB input. I use it with an REGEN Amber.
> 
> I would love to put one in my headphone system but they are a bit pricey. I would jump on the F1 if it was close...
> 
> Thanks!


 

 Well let's see the Berkeley Alpha is $1800 and the Mutec Mutec MC-3Plus Smart Clock USB is over $1000.  It would be great to beat them with a $180 unit...maybe asking too much.  Only a listening could say for sure.
  
 Someone offered to lend me his Mutec - so we'll see.
  
 I do have to say the F-1 is better then the $800 Hydra Z and $480 PUC2 Lite - both of which I owned for an extended period of time.


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Well let's see the Berkeley Alpha is $1800 and the Mutec Mutec MC-3Plus Smart Clock USB is over $1000.  It would be great to beat them with a $180 unit...maybe asking too much.  Only a listening could say for sure.
> 
> Someone offered to lend me his Mutec - so we'll see.
> 
> I do have to say the F-1 is better then the $800 Hydra Z and $480 PUC2 Lite - both of which I owned for an extended period of time.


 
 Thanks for the reply. 
  
 We seem to be in the Springtime for computer audio and it really is changing fast. It is conceivable that a device like the F1 could approach those top ranked devices.Looking forward to what you hear from the Mutec..


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> We seem to be in the Springtime for computer audio and it really is changing fast. It is conceivable that a device like the F1 could approach those top ranked devices.Looking forward to what you hear from the Mutec..


 

 Yes I agree!


----------



## somestranger26

Well I'm sold on the F-1. Just ordered one from Aliexpress, but I just got a message that they're out of stock until next Wednesday because you all have been buying too many. Cuirrently using the Breeze DU-U8 via I2S with my Audio-GD Master-11. I'll probably cut open one of my I2S cables and solder to the board instead of using the RCA.


----------



## motberg

wakka992 said:


> Mmmmm... ok:
> 
> considering F-1 board, linear power supply, Splitted usb cable from forza audio (tnx for that, didn't know they had it)... It cost the same as the SU-1!!
> 
> Wouldn't be better quality wise to buy the complete SU-1 instead of doing the chain? Remember I'd be using only coax...


 

 I think a very good option would be start with the F-1, then check the new Uptone Audio device when it arrives in a few months. It seems that device will offer very clean power, full galvanic isolation and improved second generation developed re-clocking... there is no specific info yet, but a recent post by Alex at CA implies they now have a satisfactory working production sample.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi All !
 I wonder how many times this poor usb signal has to be reclocked before reaching the blessed dac chip 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 which maybe will reclock it again !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   (like in my case)
 i still think that a very good usb bridge, like this F-1, rightly powered (*) should be enough
 Have a nice day
 gino 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 (*)  galvanic isolation and very low noise.


----------



## leggoslave

currawong said:


> Try through a USB hub. I gather the odd Mac has USB hardware that doesn't agree with some audio gear.


 

 Ok we're cooking with hi-rez now.
  
 It wasn't the USB implementation on the iMac but the S/PDIF signalling from the F-1 to the DAC. I was using an old OS Bel Canto DAC2 which for some reason wasn't reading the signal from the F-1.
  
 I'm now back to the EE MiniMax DAC+ and all high-rez is playing, well up to 24/192 anyway. From what I can tell through Audirvana, the F-1 is capable of 24/768.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Yes - a good place to start.  The F-1 at $179 is a true bargain - now how much of an improvement you might witness will depend on your system.  I don't think it could hurt the sound.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot again.  I think the same.   Replacing on element of a chain with another one with the same function but better can only improve the overall result.
 I am sure of this.   No doubts.   However many of the ancillaries (power supplies, reclockers, etc.)  can be used also with the F-1.
  


> The route for the PS is quite flexible as the TeraDak's have variable voltages - so can be set for 5VDC or 7VDC or 9VDC - depending on what device you are using.
> The cheaper TeraDak X1/X2 even has a USB port set for 5VDC - so it's plug and play (and included a USB power cable) - but also has a 2.5mm DC port that can be set for say 8-9 VDC for the Regen or Recovery.
> How do you beat that for $80 ! OK it doesn't have the cleanest regulators - so a DC Ipurifer can be added.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Do you mean that 30W model with the R-core transformer ?  and that if i buy the 9VDC model i can vary the Vout down to 5VDC ?
 I have different devices to try that use different V in that range.
 I was thinking to buy 2 or 3 iFi power ... but i guess the Teradak is better.
 I have already the small one you mention. This one here
  
http://www.teradak.com/products/46.html
  


> The use of a reclocker like the Regen and Recovery is helpful as they also have ultra low noise regulators built in.


 
  
 From what i have read it seems that also these devices benefit from a better PS.   For instance the Regen is sold with a good quality SMPS.
 But using a better linear PS is said to be beneficial.  Never tried it.
 I have already a simple and cheap USB isolator bought on ebay.  It works but i do not know what it does to the sound.
 Thanks a lot again.  gino


----------



## hugoboss

Switch 5 is to configure HDMI PIN1-3 and PIN7-9 phase, ON when the positive phase, OFF is inverted. (Note: ON, they can and Costa de decoder matching; OFF when you can and PS AUDIO match).
 looking that the su-1 hdmi i2s pin it seems it support psaudio or audiogd master 7 with switch 5 off
  
 hope somebody tested this with audiogd master 7 to know if its work
  
  
 iam still waiting for my f-1 to arrive my audio gd nos 7 already in my hand now
 cant wait any longer hahahaha


----------



## rb2013

leggoslave said:


> Ok we're cooking with hi-rez now.
> 
> It wasn't the USB implementation on the iMac but the S/PDIF signalling from the F-1 to the DAC. I was using an old OS Bel Canto DAC2 which for some reason wasn't reading the signal from the F-1.
> 
> I'm now back to the EE MiniMax DAC+ and all high-rez is playing, well up to 24/192 anyway. From what I can tell through Audirvana, the F-1 is capable of 24/768.


 
 24/768 - Wow!
  


somestranger26 said:


> Well I'm sold on the F-1. Just ordered one from Aliexpress, but I just got a message that they're out of stock until next Wednesday because you all have been buying too many. Cuirrently using the Breeze DU-U8 via I2S with my Audio-GD Master-11. I'll probably cut open one of my I2S cables and solder to the board instead of using the RCA.


 
 Wonder why they've become so popular...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


ginetto61 said:


> Hi All !
> I wonder how many times this poor usb signal has to be reclocked before reaching the blessed dac chip
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The reclocking is important to improve signal integrity - the higher the signal integrity - the lower the PHY and USB receiver's AGC has to work - this leads to lower 'packet noise' intermodulating through the DDC's PSR.  Each reclocking by a better fed femto clock lowers jitter - the initial data stream with lower jitter helps the clock.  The W4S Recovery uses Crystek clocks (some of the best).  The reason I'm not a fan of the Intona - it reclocks but with el-cheapo botl SiTime clocks...but the upcoming Uber-Regen will be an improvement on this.
  


hugoboss said:


> Switch 5 is to configure HDMI PIN1-3 and PIN7-9 phase, ON when the positive phase, OFF is inverted. (Note: ON, they can and Costa de decoder matching; OFF when you can and PS AUDIO match).
> looking that the su-1 hdmi i2s pin it seems it support psaudio or audiogd master 7 with switch 5 off
> 
> hope somebody tested this with audiogd master 7 to know if its work
> ...


 
 Hope you like it


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> I think a very good option would be start with the F-1, then check the new Uptone Audio device when it arrives in a few months. It seems that device will offer very clean power, full galvanic isolation and improved second generation developed re-clocking... there is no specific info yet, but a recent post by Alex at CA implies they now have a satisfactory working production sample.


 

 Didn't know if you saw this - I reposted a while back.  Comments from Uptone on the upcoming Uber-Regen:
  

 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/9a/100x100px-LS-9acb55ce_TinySystem.jpeg[/img]
 
Superdad
Member of the Trade: UpTone Audio




 
offline
 
51 Posts. Joined 4/2015
 



prot said:


> The hard part is the galvanic iso. Chips who can do that at full usb2.0 speed are rare, new and expensive. Afaik Intona has the only commercial chip right now .. few others are rumored to come.


 
  
 No, the Intona is not based on a commercial chip.  Rather what they have done is write their own USB MAC processing core for an FPGA, then run it in two FPGAs separated by standard Silicon Labs digital isolators.  Unfortunately, they use one very average clock for the entire device--and they have it located on the "dirty" upstream side.  There is jitter added by both FPGAs and 350ps of jitter added by the isolators.  They reclock it all in the second FPGA, but there is broad debate about if that is the best place to reclock.  In addition, none of the voltage regulators they use in the device would be considered particularly low noise (at 55uVrms and 100uVrms).
  
 The Intona does sound good with a REGEN after it though.  That's how I use it.  At least for another couple of months, when we will then release our uber-REGEN with, among a bunch of other enhancements, full galvanic isolation.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ....  The reclocking is important to improve signal integrity - the higher the signal integrity - the lower the PHY and USB receiver's AGC has to work -
> this leads to lower 'packet noise' intermodulating through the DDC's PSR.
> Each reclocking by a better fed femto clock lowers jitter - the initial data stream with lower jitter helps the clock.
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the always valuable advice.   I thought that usb connection were much less sensitive to these issues.
 In the end between pc and interface usually there are max 2 meters ?   all this degradation of the signal in 2 meters ?
 I have a curiosity. Would a Gigabit ethernet connection a better solution ?
 Another thing that i do not like at all is the usb connector.  I would like better the rj45 with its locking mechanism.
 I promise.  I will stop with ramblings.  Almost.
 Thanks a lot again,   gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot again.  I think the same.   Replacing on element of a chain with another one with the same function but better can only improve the overall result.
> I am sure of this.   No doubts.   However many of the ancillaries (power supplies, reclockers, etc.)  can be used also with the F-1.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes the TeraDak DC-30W and the X1/X2 have adjustable DC voltage - see this little blue box and the brass screw on top.  You need a volt meter to read the power outputs.  Becareful the unit has to be live and LETHAL HIGH VOLTAGE inside.   A local electronics shop open it up and reset for you.

  
 The R-Core version is better  - I recapped my X1/X2 with Nichicon HW's so - it pretty darn good.  If you get the DC-30W get the one with the Pannie 3300uf FM caps.
  
 YES!!! The Regen and the Recovery need as clean a power source as possible - for several reasons.  First they have on board clocks - to reclock the USB signal, Second they  send clean +5VDC to the DDC.  They both use ultra low noise regulators to clean the incoming 7-9 VDC to output 5 VDC.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


>





> Yes the TeraDak DC-30W and the X1/X2 have adjustable DC voltage -


 
  
 Hi !  do you think that i could get the 12VDC unit and use it even down to 5VDC ? because i would like to use it for usb power up to 12VDC with another dac that needs this voltage.  Is it stretching too much ?
  


> see this little blue box and the brass screw on top. You need a volt meter to read the power outputs. Becareful the unit has to be live and LETHAL HIGH VOLTAGE inside. A local electronics shop open it up and reset for you.
> 
> The R-Core version is better - I recapped my X1/X2 with Nichicon HW's so - it pretty darn good.
> *If you get the DC-30W get the one with the Pannie 3300uf FM caps.*


 
  
 Thanks again ! however no problem ... recapping is my forte 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  actually the only mod i can do more or less easily
 I have a desoldering gun and good tin.
 By the way i like also the squared transformer in the smaller unit.  I do not understand why all people are mad about toroidal.  I am sure the squared one is better.
  


> YES!!! The Regen and the Recovery need as clean a power source as possible - for several reasons.
> First they have on board clocks - to reclock the USB signal, Second they send clean +5VDC to the DDC.
> They both use ultra low noise regulators to clean the incoming 7-9 VDC to output 5 VDC.
> Cheers!


 
  
 I see a very important point.   Instead i am a little doubtful about the quality of the regulators on board.
 IMHO if a device is sensitive to the power supply quality means that is not very well regulated.  It is a little like with power cords.
 If a unit is sensitive to the cord swapping there is some issue in the power supply of the unit.
 The power cords act in the end as filters on mains noise with different efficiency.
 I still think that two power cords with decent shielding and same L,R and C should sound the same.
 I will buy one 30W unit.  I love that R-Core transformer.
 Thanks a lot again.  gino  
  
 P.S.  may i ask you were are you based ?


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the always valuable advice.   I thought that usb connection were much less sensitive to these issues.
> In the end between pc and interface usually there are max 2 meters ?   all this degradation of the signal in 2 meters ?
> I have a curiosity. Would a Gigabit ethernet connection a better solution ?
> Another thing that i do not like at all is the usb connector.  I would like better the rj45 with its locking mechanism.
> ...


 

 ALL digital connections will have issues of one sort or another - it's just now after how many decades after USB launched we are finally understanding how to address these issues.  That is the key - it's like great analog - how long that took (40 yrs) to perfect!  I could write three pages on what was done there to address it's issues.  So don't get hung up on connectors and boxes.
  
 If it works and sounds better - use it!   Trust your ears.  That's my motto.  All this theory stuff and 'test bench' measurements is fine - but when it comes to SQ may not help.
  
 The issue with USB is not the cable (assuming you are using a great one) it is the conversion of a series of 'packets' into a digital stream.  Why the DDC is so very important.
  
 In fact, after starting my Gustard U12 thread a year ago, and now this thread, rolling through all these various devices - I have realized how critical this part of the chain is.  My system: Amps, DAC, Speakers, cables have remained pretty much the same through the process.  And the unbeliveable increasing in performance from upgrading these little devices (and the many tweeks and gizmos) - has left me STUNNED~!
  
 My system now at least ties and in many ways beats my old $30K analog rig!  For a tiny fraction of the cost.  In fact, just one of my old cartridges, the Dynavector XV1-S cost multiples more then my whole DDC set-up!
  
 The nice part of the way I have the power and data chains refined - I can just plug and play now - say to compare the F-1 to the NDK SD clocked X-1, or the upcoming DXIO Pro4a.  Easy peasey. 
  
 Also remember the advent of the Schiit Wyrd and these other USB gizmos - is just in it's infancy.  I'm sure more and better to come - so Read my Chord DAVE thread post - $13000 newest sota DAC - USB and SPDIF  - that's it!  I have posted now at least 4-5 brand new sota DAC's from the top audio designers - who only use USB and SPDIF  and laugh at all the amateur armchair audio engineers who think they can do better with their digital connection schemes!  And all the gymnastics to get i2s to work.
  
 You see you're not the only one who can ramble!
  
 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

Reposted for Gino:
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> Reading in 'Hi-Fi News' the review of the Chord 'DAVE' DAC - wow what a piece of gear.  The lowest jitter measurements I've ever seen 8psec on 96k SPDIF and 5psec on USB!
> 
> This sota $13,000 DAC/HP amp does not do i2s - but can do 384k over BNC SPDIF!  The first time I have ever seen that.  And get this it can output 768K/32-bit over a coax BNC connection!
> 
> ...


----------



## audioelements

sbgk said:


> Excellent, like the variation on 'even my wife thought it sounded good', lol. Getting mine next week. Will be interesting to see if you pursue the improved ps ideas.


 
  
  


rb2013 said:


> Great review!  I'm very interested in your ideas on removing the DC-DC converter.  Gathering up good modding ideas!


 
 Thanks for the nice word.  sbgk, those "even my wife liked it" thing did work on forums, didn't it? LOL .
  
 I contacted the designer. He said that de-soldering the DC-DC converter is doable. He used the DC-DC converter because he wanted the board to be simply plug-and-play and lower the cost. The +5V and Ground is clearly labelled on the back of the board. Those two through-holes are located closely to the DC-DC converter, both on the second section of the board. The DC-DC converter has 4 pins, crossing the isolation zone. He said that the voltage needed to be between 4.6v-5.2v. Supply over 5.2V will damage the board. I will keep it as-is for now. I am waiting Lucian's (luckit.biz) waveIO board. I will compare those two. One is a newer chip with up-to-date design, the other has been around since 2012 using an early XMOS chip. I bet the I2S from the F-1 would be better due to the signal shaping following the isolation chip (both used isolation chips for I2S). I am interested in comparing the spdif outputs of those two boards. The F-1 uses crystek CCHD clocks while the WaveIO uses NDK clocks.It seems arguable which one sounded better, more of a personal preference, from what I've read.
  
 A followup after 24 hours. First, the board is very stable with Linux. The USB Gen2 board in my Schiit Gungnir DAC would disconnected with my media server after a day of continues play - I would need to reboot my server to re-establish the connection. The F-1 has been playing without a glitch in the first 24 hours. Second, the board brought even more details. I wouldn't call it "warm" sounding after 24 hours burn-in. Now it is neutral with extended lows and highs. Don't worry, the treble is still good! just more details, but still very ... sweet. As a result, I felt that the sound stage has been opened up more, and a little bit closer to me. The voice from the singers was floating in the middle. I assume because the sound stage got deeper.
  
 Every time I tweaked my system, I got different sound. Many of which, I think, were just changes in "tastes" - hard to say "improved". But this F-1 card brought a remarkable improvement in both sonic aspects and musicality. Considering it costs less than $200, I rate it as one of the best cost-effective spending in my setup.


----------



## rb2013

audioelements said:


> Thanks for the nice word.  sbgk, those "even my wife liked it" thing did work on forums, didn't it? LOL .
> 
> I contacted the designer. He said that de-soldering the DC-DC converter is doable. He used the DC-DC converter because he wanted the board to be simply plug-and-play and lower the cost. The optional +5V and Ground is clearly labelled on the back of the board. Those two through-holes are located closely to the DC-DC converter, both on the second section of the board. The DC-DC converter has 4 pins, crossing the isolation zone. He said that the voltage need to be between 4.6v-5.2v. Supply over 5.2V will damage the board. I will keep it as-is for now. I am waiting Lucian's (luckit.biz) waveIO board. I will compare those two. One is a newer chip with up-to-date design, the other has been around since 2012 using an early XMOS chip. I bet the I2S from the F-1 would be better due to the signal shaping following the isolation chip (both used isolation chips for I2S). I am interested in comparing the spdif outputs of those two boards. The F-1 uses crystek CCHD clocks while the WaveIO uses NDK clocks.It seems arguable which one sounded better, more of a personal preference.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice write up!  The Luckit WaveI/O board looks very nice as well.  Singxer makes a another DDC called the X-1 which uses the NDk SD clocks and the XU208 - $69 on Ebay!
 Also plug and play ready.  I will do a face off in the main system between the two -as they are now both burned in.
  
 What is your power supply and data chains?  Regen? Recovery? Intona? LPS? Ifi stuff?  USB and SPDIF cables?


----------



## audioelements

rb2013 said:


> Nice write up!  The Luckit WaveI/O board looks very nice as well.  Singxer makes a another DDC called the X-1 which uses the NDk SD clocks and the XU208 - $69 on Ebay!
> Also plug and play ready.  I will do a face off in the main system between the two -as they are now both burned in.
> 
> What is your power supply and data chains?  Regen? Recovery? Intona? LPS? Ifi stuff?  USB and SPDIF cables?


 
 Hi rb2013,
  
 I don't have those yet, and I use cheap USB cables - straightwire USB or Belkin Gold (now very cheap on amazon).
  
 My thought was: "OK, the usb is bad, the computer is noisy. I would then use a 5 watt single board linux computer, feeding with a clean LPS, then I've cut the dirty source from the beginning." Now I understand that it is not true, because those single board computers (raspberry pi and similar) have on-board DC-DC converters. It is inevitable, for example, the CPU adjust their speed and voltage according to the demands. Thus even use a LPS, the USB output can be very noisy. Well, it is better (cleaner) than the USB from a laptop. In addition, I noticed differences between using the power-plug and using the battery in the laptop - battery is better.
  
 This is off the topic. But now another interesting question: is a LPS or a Li-po battery bank better for my signle board computer? My answer is the LPS better. Why? I think because the li-po battery bank, which is mainly for charging smart phones, uses DC-DC converter to convert the battery voltage (~3.3Volt) to the 5.0V for the USB output. This explains why people report using LPS for Regen or Recovery getting better results, compared to the power banks.
  
 I have read your impression of the X-1. I have no doubt it is good. It is designed by the same guy of F-1 and with a newer faster chip. Compare to the WaveIO, it did not have the GMR isolaton chips on the F-1 and the WaveIO. I wanted to try WaveIO because it has the connections for the sample-rates LEDs (44.1k, 96k, etc). My Linux box dose not display anything (it is a headless console).


----------



## ginetto61

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ALL digital connections will have issues of one sort or another - it's just now after how many decades after USB launched we are finally understanding how to address these issues.
> That is the key - it's like great analog - how long that took (40 yrs) to perfect!  I could write three pages on what was done there to address it's issues.  So don't get hung up on connectors and boxes.
> *If it works and sounds better - use it!   Trust your ears.  That's my motto.  *All this theory stuff and 'test bench' measurements is fine - but when it comes to SQ may not help.
> ... 
  
 Thank you sincerely again for the very precious advice.   I agree completely on if it sounds good it is good principle. 
 I understand that some accessories can give an additional increase in the sound quality,
 In any case the DDC is a key element of the chain.  If it is wrong no reclocker can cure it ?  because my dac i guess reclocks.  
 I do not know how sensitive to jitter it really is.  It is an Apogee Rosetta 200.
 but i have another Hegel HD10 to try.
 I would love to have the cash available for the amazing Chord Dave ... but it is out of my reach.  
*If i can fix the DDC issue i could be quite confident that the digital source is fine and listen the different dacs at their best performance. *
 I see that the boxed version of the F-1 has a quite different board ? and the blessed AES/EBU out also.
 I will wait a little to see if anyone will take the plunge on the boxed version, If not i will take a F-1.
 At least i will be sure that if the sound will be ugly the cause is not in the DDC.
 Kind regards, gino


----------



## motberg

> (from superdad)
> The Intona does sound good with a REGEN after it though.  That's how I use it.  At least for another couple of months, when we will then release our uber-REGEN with, among a bunch of other enhancements, full galvanic isolation.


 
 right - but for reclocking I currently use a battery (I believe LiFePO4) powered Recovery after my Intona... (which sounds better in my near-field system than the Regen)...
 the battery is to maintain the galvanic isolation... but as you mentioned in another post, a LPS would offer a different sound (possibly more dynamic), but isolated LPS currently are very expensive (ie: the Uptone PS)... My guess is that the Uptone guys studied all the latest stuff and are incorporating everything into one device which should surely be more cost effective than the current options I am using...
  
 I previously also had good results with the small TeraDak LPS, and if I had a F-1 and no Intona, I would use one of those TeraDak things until the Uptone device arrives.. I remember an old comment that someone tested the noise on the 5V output of the TeraDak and it was quite good... much better than the 9V output. To me, the small 9V/5V TeraDak was as good as the iFi first gen iUSBPower I compared against.
 Note I think the new iFi DC iPower cleaning device would not plug directly in that setup - you would need some kind of 5.5/2.1->USB-bypass adapter.
  
 I hope Uptone offers the new PS as a separate PS only device.. 
  
 I actually prefer my PPA 5V 3A LiFePO4 battery packs over the cheaper LPS's I have tried previously for my OS SSD and the PPA v2 USB card...
 Of course, if anyone had mentioned I could tweak the sound via power supplies, USB cables, reclocking, OS tweaks, etc a few years ago.. I would have thought they were crazy...
  
 I think the next question will be is how the Uptone-new-PS + F-1 compares to the Mutec....
 also I think if the SU-1 offers some way to modify the power supply, that may be a similar killer device for folks who need different outputs..


----------



## rb2013

audioelements said:


> Hi rb2013,
> 
> I don't have those yet, and I use cheap USB cables - straightwire USB or Belkin Gold (now very cheap on amazon).
> 
> ...


 

 Most Li Ion batteries are noisy in their own right - a good LPS would be a better solution.  The Hi-Fi Berry and RPi3 have some pretty nasty clocks - why reinvent the wheel.  Get a $450 WIN10 iCore 7 Haswell from costco, drop in some SATA filters, a CPU fan filter a high SRPP SMPS and the PPA V2 TXCO PCIe USB card running it's own PS.
  
 My whole rig took 8hrs to set-up, WIN10 is a step up and very solid - so solid I can close Foobar - turn off my DCC LPS and switch DDC's switch back and reopen Foobar runs great!. 
  
 Address the power to I'm thinking about getting a Hydra ZPM to try as a power source - but only 5VDC

Hydra ZPM - Ultra linear audio power supply  If one wants to fully squeeze the last drop of sound from the Hydra Z usb bridge, Hydra ZPM (Z Power Module) is the natural upgrade as external power supply. It’s main features are described below.
*ULTRACAPACITOR POWER BANK* The Hydra ZPM makes a step further, letting behind the Hydra X concept, which was battery powered. Instead, ZPM is using a ultracapacitor bank consisting of 2 x 310 Farads (1 Farad equals 1.000.000 uF) which will provide lower internal resistance and longer life and reliability, compared to a battery solution.
*PROCESSOR CONTROLLED* This charging of this huge capacitance is no trivial task, therefore is being done by specialized circuitry. Once capacitor bank is fully charged (it may take up to 4h first time!) , the output voltage will remain constant assuming that Hydra ZPM is left powered on.
*LOW NOISE LINEAR* The ZPM is designed entirely a linear design – meaning there is no switchmode technology inside. This way, all types of noise associated usually with the widespread non-linear power supplies is eliminated.
*UPGRADABLE* Aside the “digital” 5v output readily available, the Hydra ZPM can be equipped with a discrete ultralow noise analog regulators to provide symmetrical +/-12v.. +/-24 in order to supply analog devices.
 

Dimensions : 240 x 170 x 45mm
Weight : 1,7kg
Output digital : 5V / 1A max
Output noise (digital) : 5 uV RMS
Output analog (optional) : +/- 12v , 0.5A max.


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> right - but for reclocking I currently use a battery (I believe LiFePO4) powered Recovery after my Intona... (which sounds better in my near-field system than the Regen)...
> the battery is to maintain the galvanic isolation... but as you mentioned in another post, a LPS would offer a different sound (possibly more dynamic), but isolated LPS currently are very expensive (ie: the Uptone PS)... My guess is that the Uptone guys studied all the latest stuff and are incorporating everything into one device which should surely be more cost effective than the current options I am using...
> 
> I previously also had good results with the small TeraDak LPS, and if I had a F-1 and no Intona, I would use one of those TeraDak things until the Uptone device arrives.. I remember an old comment that someone tested the noise on the 5V output of the TeraDak and it was quite good... much better than the 9V output. To me, the small 9V/5V TeraDak was as good as the iFi first gen iUSBPower I compared against.
> ...


 

 Yes I agree on all scores.   Uptone has a few new products coming - the Uber Regen incorporating better clocks and galvanic isolation and a new lower cost PS (then the JS-1).  I think Audiobyte is on the right track using those 'Super capacitors'  although I think Alex looked at doing a DIY project and found them difficult to work with.
  
 I have a 2.5mm to USB adpater - have not tried it yet.  I did mod my X1 with Nichicon HW caps that did improve the performance.

  
 Have not had a chance to do the same on my DC-30W.  Went the DC iPur route instead.
  
 Let's just say the Recovery (which I slightly prefer to the Regen) using a Curious 200mm USB link - (and fed by a quality LPS) takes the F-1 to a whole new level.  When I added the PPA V2 card - I barely noticed any difference - same for powering it with a iPower.  Adding a iPur2 between the Recovery (and the Regen) and the F-1 was more goodness.  All easy and reversible.
  
 Note I also use two Jitterbugs - one stock in an empty USB port and another I modded into a +5 VDC VBUS blocker (by clipping the 1 and 4 pins on the female A socket) this modded JB made a nice improvement in musicality and tone.  There is so much detail from the F-1, some poorly recorded albums can reveal some etch - with the modded JB that's gone.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Thank you sincerely again for the very precious advice.   I agree completely on if it sounds good it is good principle.
> I understand that some accessories can give an additional increase in the sound quality,
> In any case the DDC is a key element of the chain.  If it is wrong no reclocker can cure it ?  because my dac i guess reclocks.
> I do not know how sensitive to jitter it really is.  It is an Apogee Rosetta 200.
> ...


 

 All DACs are sensitive to jitter - of course some more then others.  And there are many forms of jitter - your Rosetta is at least 10 yr old technology - I doubt it has femto second TXCO clocks...so yes reclocking is a good idea.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> All DACs are sensitive to jitter - of course some more then others.  And there are many forms of jitter - your Rosetta is at least 10 yr old technology -
> I doubt it has femto second TXCO clocks...so yes reclocking is a good idea.


 
  
 Actually 10 years are a lot in this sector.  When i tried it befor playing with other things i remember that the sound was better with the reclocking inside the dac.  There is something here about the clock
  
 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/apogeerosetta.htm
  


> Apogee have always been praised for their stable, low-jitter clocks, and the latest Intelliclock design employs a dual-stage jitter-reduction technique that uses a FIFO buffer to isolate external, unstable clocks from the internal reference clock — a FIFO buffer (first-in, first-out) is a form of short-term memory. Incoming audio samples are loaded into the FIFO buffer using a 'write' clock derived from the incoming digital signal, and a high level of jitter and instability can be tolerated here, since stable timing isn't required. The audio data is then retrieved from the FIFO buffer using a very precise 'read' clock, which permits jitter-free D-A conversion. Of course, the FIFO buffer introduces a short storage delay, but this only amounts to a few samples, and is irrelevant compared to the normal conversion-filter delays. A similar approach is used to ensure that the A-D conversion is jitter free, even when using an external reference clock.
 
  
 I bought it because a friend with a very good system tried it in his system and found it quite decent.   For sure it is mid-fi.
 However i am following the Gustard family of dacs.  At least 2 models are very interesting.
 What in your opinion could be a decent budget to buy a really serious dac ?
 Thanks a lot again,   gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Actually 10 years are a lot in this sector.  When i tried it befor playing with other things i remember that the sound was better with the reclocking inside the dac.  There is something here about the clock
> 
> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/apogeerosetta.htm
> 
> ...


 

 Yes that was published in 2006 - a lot has changed since then


----------



## mourip

ginetto61 said:


> I see that the boxed version of the F-1 has a quite different board ? and the blessed AES/EBU out also.
> I will wait a little to see if anyone will take the plunge on the boxed version...


 
 Is the cased version available? Where?
  
 I would like to stay with AES/EBU. Could the F1 be wired to output via an AES connector?


----------



## ginetto61

mourip said:


> Is the cased version available? Where?
> I would like to stay with AES/EBU. Could the F1 be wired to output via an AES connector?


 
  
 Hi ! sorry but i do not know.  I was just referring to some pictures i have seen in the forum here.  I am also interested in your same questions.
 May i ask you why do you prefer balanced digital connection ?   i tend to prefer it because the designer of the Berkeley Audio Alpha usb interface were speaking positively of it in an interview. 
 Regards, gino


----------



## mourip

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! sorry but i do not know.  I was just referring to some pictures i have seen in the forum here.  I am also interested in your questions.
> May i ask you why you prefer balanced digital connection ?
> i tend to prefer it because the designer of the Berkeley Audio Alpha usb spoke positively of it in an interview.
> Regards, gino


 
  
 I use a Mutec with a Schiit Yggy. In reading on the forums it seemed that many preferred the AES input including the designers of the DAC. I have some SPDIF cables around. I really should take a listen for myself. I do know that the Mutec made a really nice difference though...


----------



## ginetto61

mourip said:


> I use a Mutec with a *Schiit Yggy*. In reading on the forums it seemed that *many preferred the AES input including the designers of the DAC. *
> I have some SPDIF cables around. I really should take a listen for myself. I do know that the Mutec made a really nice difference though...


 
  
 Thanks a lot for the kind reply.  Good. Other important endorsement.  I will focus on using that link.
 However i am a believer now that to get the most out of a usb input some sort of isolation/reclocking upstream is very needed.
 I would start with the Regen with a very good power supply or similar devices.    The Regen will provide both isolation and reclocking at the same time.
 Regards, gino


----------



## sbgk

Just got my F-1 from Shenzen, but no sign of a link to the driver download or password.
  
 Can someone please pm me the password for the baidu link, so I can get up and running.
  
 https://pan.baidu.com/s/1jHiIIzk
  
 or is this the latest link
  
https://pan.baidu.com/share/init?shareid=2571483956&uk=453716408


----------



## Caper

sbgk said:


> Just got my F-1 from Shenzen, but no sign of a link to the driver download or password.
> 
> Can someone please pm me the password for the baidu link, so I can get up and running.
> 
> ...


 
 *.*
 ---


----------



## sbgk

caper said:


> *.*
> ---


 
 Hi, I saw you posted a drop box link, but I didn't get it in time. Can you pm me it.
  
 Thanks


----------



## mhamel

Looks like I've got something to keep me busy over the next few days.
  
 DHL called this morning, my F-1 should be here today. The custom Mogami cable I ordered from Redco arrived earlier in the week, and I've got 3 different enclosures to play around with for mounting.
  
 I have to say, this DAC sounds phenomenal through it's built-in XMOS USB interface, so I'm looking forward to seeing if the F-1 improves upon that.


----------



## sbgk

mhamel said:


> Looks like I've got something to keep me busy over the next few days.
> 
> DHL called this morning, my F-1 should be here today. The custom Mogami cable I ordered from Redco arrived earlier in the week, and I've got 3 different enclosures to play around with for mounting.
> 
> I have to say, this DAC sounds phenomenal through it's built-in XMOS USB interface, so I'm looking forward to seeing if the F-1 improves upon that.


 
  
 Any luck getting the drivers ? I find it ridiculous that Shenzhen are sending the devices out without a link to drivers. I asked them for a link a week ago, but no reply.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Looks like I've got something to keep me busy over the next few days.
> 
> DHL called this morning, my F-1 should be here today. The custom Mogami cable I ordered from Redco arrived earlier in the week, and I've got 3 different enclosures to play around with for mounting.
> 
> I have to say, this DAC sounds phenomenal through it's built-in XMOS USB interface, so I'm looking forward to seeing if the F-1 improves upon that.


 
 That will be a tough test for this external board.  My cases came in too and just waiting for the 3rd F-1 to arrive so I can mod it and mount it.
  


sbgk said:


> Any luck getting the drivers ? I find it ridiculous that Shenzhen are sending the devices out without a link to drivers. I asked them for a link a week ago, but no reply.


 
 I emailed them again for the link and password - no reply!  Ugg!


----------



## mhamel

sbgk said:


> Any luck getting the drivers ? I find it ridiculous that Shenzhen are sending the devices out without a link to drivers. I asked them for a link a week ago, but no reply.


 
  
 I've been going back and forth with him on that. He keeps saying he's emailed them to me, but despite multiple different addresses, I haven't received anything. Last update was that he was going to try to get the link. In the meantime I downloaded them from a link someone posted the other day.
  
 I'm wondering though if it needs their custom drivers or if the reference XMOS drivers will work. That's the first thing I'm going to try.


----------



## sbgk

got it working. Plenty of detail, typical sound of new electronics, shall see how it mellows with use. Can tell straight off it's something special, though.


----------



## mourip

mourip said:


> Is the cased version available? Where?
> 
> I would like to stay with AES/EBU. Could the F1 be wired to output via an AES connector?


 
  
 I am replying to myself. Might be a bad sign!
  
 I emailed the Ebay seller of the F-1 yesterday asking about availability of a boxed version with AES/EBU and he is going to check into it.


----------



## mhamel

mourip said:


> I am replying to myself. Might be a bad sign!
> 
> I emailed the Ebay seller of the F-1 yesterday asking about availability of a boxed version with AES/EBU and he is going to check into it.


 
  
 Look back through the thread, it's shown in several spots.... SU-1 is the model.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> I am replying to myself. Might be a bad sign!
> 
> I emailed the Ebay seller of the F-1 yesterday asking about availability of a boxed version with AES/EBU and he is going to check into it.


 

 Yes SU-1 should be out in May - will have BNC, AES COAX, HDMI i2s with switchable pinouts.
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.kq275g#detail


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> got it working. Plenty of detail, typical sound of new electronics, shall see how it mellows with use. Can tell straight off it's something special, though.


 

 Nice!  What were you using it before?


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Yes SU-1 should be out in May - will have BNC, AES COAX, HDMI i2s with switchable pinouts.
> 
> https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.kq275g#detail


 
  
 Thanks for the replies. I overlooked those posts somehow...


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Thanks for the replies. I overlooked those posts somehow...


 

 No worries this thread is only a few weeks old and already over 500 posts.


----------



## rb2013

I wanted to re-post this from early in the thread, page 8, post #108
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> *F-1 Review Update:*
> 
> Ok the F-1 is at the 120hrs mark for last nights listening session - now with the W4S Recovery.  First - no unlocks again - super stable drivers and unit - same for the X-1.  Rock solid.  Sounding great!  Don't really think the Recovery made any significant improvement (over the Regen) - as least before burnin.  So we'll see.
> 
> ...


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Yes SU-1 should be out in May - will have BNC, AES COAX, HDMI i2s with switchable pinouts.
> 
> https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.kq275g#detail


 
  
 Link seems dead now. Takes me to a Russian page...
  
 Found it here. Looks like they are taking orders.
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z3o.7695460.0.0.RD7MiL


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Link seems dead now. Takes me to a Russian page...


 

 Try cutting and pasting the link into Google Chrome - it has an automatic translate feature.


----------



## sbgk

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  What were you using it before?


 
 stock Gustard u12/x12 using hdmi i2s, now x12/f1 using spdif. The F1 had it's i2s pins in some bubble wrap, so some soldering required to get that connected or just solder the wires direct to the board.
  
 compared a wasapi player and a ks player and could tell the difference, so not player agnostic in my setup.


----------



## rb2013

SPDIF cable update - recieved the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme digital RCA cable a couple of days ago.  I was so excited to give this one a try, as I had such great success with their Graphene Extreme Red power chords.
  
 Well it was a dud!  In comparison to my current Audio Sensibilites Silver Statement 1.5M the sound was compressed, lacking dynamics (another great attribute of the F-1), a bit rolled off in detail.  Let it run for a few days, only a very minor improvement.  Put the Audio Sensibilites back in and walla!  The gorgeous tone and detail came back - and the dynamics!
  
 The Silver Statement is cheaper too!  The CE was 'on sale' on Audiogon for $200 - the 1.5M (as Audio Sens claim is the optimal length to inhibit back wave reflections) is now like $179.
  
 I've had 5-6 top SPDIF RCA cables and they all sounded different - the Synergistic Research Tesla being the most expensive.  My current is the best sounding I have heard - these cables do make a difference - at least in my system.
  
 So back to Cerious Tech it went yesterday.


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> stock Gustard u12/x12 using hdmi i2s, now x12/f1 using spdif. The F1 had it's i2s pins in some bubble wrap, so some soldering required to get that connected or just solder the wires direct to the board.
> 
> compared a wasapi player and a ks player and could tell the difference, so not player agnostic in my setup.


 

 My preference is the ASIO driver.
  
 So the i2s pins were not attached to the board like this:

  
 PS You should hear a pretty big improvement with the F-1 over the U12


----------



## sbgk

no the pins were separate in a bag, bit cheeky as the picture showed them attached.
  
 I always think asio sounds digital compared to ks. asio operates totally in user mode but still relies on interrupts from the kernel. Asio needs a buffer copy for each channel, whereas ks is interleaved. With optimised ks you can get latency same as asio without the copying or digital sound and take advantage of operations in kernel mode.


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> no the pins were separate in a bag, bit cheeky as the picture showed them attached.
> 
> I always think asio sounds digital compared to ks. asio operates totally in user mode but still relies on interrupts from the kernel. Asio needs a buffer copy for each channel, whereas ks is interleaved. With optimised ks you can get latency same as asio without the copying or digital sound and take advantage of operations in kernel mode.


 

 Thanks for the explanation - I use JPlay 6.2 - it runs as ASIO - but uses the KS.  In my WIN10 system the ASIO XMOS sounded just as good - virtually no latency.  On my WIN7 system JPlay/KS sounds best.
  
 I run the XMOS ASIO with the smallest buffer size possible and dither on.
  
 PS they must be making boards as fast as they can - and attaching those pins must take some time.  I just hope the QC doesn't suffer like at Breeze.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi rb,
  
 Does the Audio Sensibilites Silver Statement work well with the APL and the DXIO Pro 3A?
  
 I use one of Alex's SPDIF cables into my APL, it is one meter, so I was thinking of going 1.5 because of said reflections. $179 is certainly a very good price.....
  
 Is the DXIO still tops on your list? Have you compared the XU208 to it yet? I don't want to play around with building my own case, - unless the difference is significant.
  
 Thanks for all your posts...


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi rb,
> 
> Does the Audio Sensibilites Silver Statement work well with the APL and the DXIO Pro 3A?
> 
> ...


 

 Yes  the AS Silver Statement is the best SPDIF cable I have heard yet.  Works great with the APL.

 You have to hear what the F-1 (XU208) does for the APL!  It's pretty stunning.  Amazing what digital can do when set up properly.  It does need a very clean power source and some attention to the data chain - but well worth the effort.
  
 I posted back on #544 this:


> Well - Does the PUC2 better the Berkeley????  Wow!  If so I would use some logic and say the F-1 (well fed) would just crush the Berkeley!!!
> 
> Of course this is all system dependent - but at least in mine the F-1 is heads over the PUC2 and the Pro3a.


 
  
 The 1M is $179 the 1.5M $209 (worth the extra money)
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Statement-SE-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588/category=4059160
  


> Why is 1.5m the ideal length for a RCA/BNC digital cable?  Using a digital cable of at least 1.5m in length dramatically reduces the effect of signal reflection (from the receiver back to the transmitter) in typical audiophile equipment. Reflection contributes significantly to jitter in the digital signal. And of course jitter reduces the fidelity of digital music.
> In a perfect world where the impedance of the digital source transport (transmitter), transmission line (all wiring, cables, and connectors in between), and the input receiver (DAC) are all identically matched at the S/PDIF standard of 75 ohms, signal reflection is not an issue. But the reality is that this is almost impossible to achieve, particularly in the transmission line.
> The choice of 1.5m is just a practical guideline since no one wants a cable in their system that is too long.
> For more technical information on this subject consult the following technical article written by Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio.


----------



## ciphercomplete

This thing is next level $h!t man. It really sounded mundane during the first 10 hours or so. The hallmark of its sound is absolute clarity and precision. It is running cirles around the Yggys usb input now. I kind of want to hear AES through the SU-1 now.

Is anyone else using this thing with a Linux based server?


----------



## mhamel

I was able to get a copy of the driver from someone, but the rar file in the driver folder is refusing to extract.
  
 Has anyone else run into this? Is there a password on the archive that has to be used?


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> This thing is next level $h!t man. It really sounded mundane during the first 10 hours or so. The hallmark of its sound is absolute clarity and precision. It is running cirles around the Yggys usb input now. I kind of want to hear AES through the SU-1 now.
> 
> Is anyone else using this thing with a Linux based server?


 
 No kidding!
  


mhamel said:


> I was able to get a copy of the driver from someone, but the rar file in the driver folder is refusing to extract.
> 
> Has anyone else run into this? Is there a password on the archive that has to be used?


 
 No archive password PM me and I can get your Email and send the driver to you


----------



## rb2013

The driver file was to large and kicked back - Sorry folks


----------



## Currawong

mourip said:


> I would like to stay with AES/EBU. Could the F1 be wired to output via an AES connector?


 
  
 Neutrik make an adaptor which has the necessary transformer built in. I rather regret selling the ones I had -- I never thought I'd need them again. 
  


rb2013 said:


> I wanted to re-post this from early in the thread, page 8, post #108
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


 
  
 I wondered if you were crazy when I saw your latest ratings for the Audiophilleo, but it looks like USB electronics have caught up enough that expensive converters aren't necessary any longer.
  


ciphercomplete said:


> This thing is next level $h!t man. It really sounded mundane during the first 10 hours or so. The hallmark of its sound is absolute clarity and precision. It is running cirles around the Yggys usb input now. I kind of want to hear AES through the SU-1 now.
> 
> Is anyone else using this thing with a Linux based server?


 
  
 I was with a Raspberry Pi running Ubuntu, but it wont output audio over USB lately and I don't know why. I tend to get excellent results using an iPad as a transport, though it wont always connect straight-away to the F-1, so I've been using my MacBook Air mostly. That goes into an iUSB 3.0 with an Aurorasound PSU (for their USB Bus Power unit). It has pushed the Yggy over the edge, much as using a Schiit Wyrd or the Audiophilleo did for the Chord Hugo before. Now if there was some means to put it inside the Yggy, that'd be much neater.


----------



## Yviena

I tried connecting my F1 by using a ipower > dc usb adapter > power injector but it looks like the f1 needs either a power or ground connection with the pc.


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> I tried connecting my F1 by using a ipower > dc usb adapter > power injector but it looks like the f1 needs either a power or ground connection with the pc.


 

 I don't think so - as my set-up has them both blocked


----------



## wushuliu

Please excuse me if I sound like an idiot because it's been a while since I've owned a DAC w/ SPDIF: Are these new XMOS USB to SPDIF converters suppose to be way better than just a USB-only DAC (like IFI nano/micro etc)?


----------



## mhamel

F-1 in and running... sounding very good out of the box. I will give it some burn in time before doing any real comparison to the C2's built-in XMOS USB.
  
 I did confirm that while both devices are using the base XMOS driver, the driver installs are built to support the particular device, so I have to have two installs of the same driver.
  
 Also, my quick-n-simple case... until I figure out what to do for a more permanent version. The aluminum case I mentioned a few pages back does have rails that will hold the board, but the capacitors near the edge of the board hit part of the internal extrusion and the board won't slide all the way in. On top of that it was just long enough for the board itself and would have needed another .5" - .6" to accommodate the connectors.


----------



## Yviena

rb2013 said:


> I don't think so - as my set-up has them both blocked



Hmm weird then when i tried this combination my f1 disappeared from devices on jriver. It shouldn't happen if you say that your cut from ground/power at pc ports.

Still this ddc converters sounds really good directly to pc usb.

The thing i notice most with f1 is the bass with my hd800.

It's so much better than my fully upgraded di 2014.


----------



## lateboomer

Ok at this moment I just extract and install the driver "Singxer_USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-_v3.20.0.exe" sent to me personally by Shenzhen. I bought F-1 from their ebay site. I can install the driver, so is this the special driver? Anyway, I am waiting for my bro to build a very good LPS which outputs 2 lines of 8 VDC to power the 2 Regens that I have. Since I don't have iPurifier2 so I am going to use 2 Regens to do it. My setup is Hqplayer --> fiber optic --> intel nuc NAA streamer (running Linux OS). I am afraid the streamer can't recognize Regen or F-1.
  
 Anyway, hopefully finger-crossed and I can get it hooked up and running. The i2s pins is in another zip-locked bag and not attached.


----------



## rb2013

The Ebay seller Shenzen just messaged me the login link and password.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Please excuse me if I sound like an idiot because it's been a while since I've owned a DAC w/ SPDIF: Are these new XMOS USB to SPDIF converters suppose to be way better than just a USB-only DAC (like IFI nano/micro etc)?


 

 Yes!  BTW I had an iFi Micro iDAC2 - it was a poor DDC (has SPDIF coax output) and a very mediocre DAC and a poor HP amp.  Sold it within a month.
  
 For DAC the stock Lite DAC60 smoked it, as a DDC the Gustard U12 same, as a HP amp the Lyr also.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> F-1 in and running... sounding very good out of the box. I will give it some burn in time before doing any real comparison to the C2's built-in XMOS USB.
> 
> I did confirm that while both devices are using the base XMOS driver, the driver installs are built to support the particular device, so I have to have two installs of the same driver.
> 
> Also, my quick-n-simple case... until I figure out what to do for a more permanent version. The aluminum case I mentioned a few pages back does have rails that will hold the board, but the capacitors near the edge of the board hit part of the internal extrusion and the board won't slide all the way in. On top of that it was just long enough for the board itself and would have needed another .5" - .6" to accommodate the connectors.


 

 I like the way it lights up blue!  Looking forward to your report.  What power supply are you using?


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Hmm weird then when i tried this combination my f1 disappeared from devices on jriver. It shouldn't happen if you say that your cut from ground/power at pc ports.
> 
> Still this ddc converters sounds really good directly to pc usb.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes it bass very, very well. Deep and great definition.
  


lateboomer said:


> Ok at this moment I just extract and install the driver "Singxer_USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-_v3.20.0.exe" sent to me personally by Shenzhen. I bought F-1 from their ebay site. I can install the driver, so is this the special driver? Anyway, I am waiting for my bro to build a very good LPS which outputs 2 lines of 8 VDC to power the 2 Regens that I have. Since I don't have iPurifier2 so I am going to use 2 Regens to do it. My setup is Hqplayer --> fiber optic --> intel nuc NAA streamer (running Linux OS). I am afraid the streamer can't recognize Regen or F-1.
> 
> Anyway, hopefully finger-crossed and I can get it hooked up and running. The i2s pins is in another zip-locked bag and not attached.


 
 Yes that's the correct driver for Windows - I thought Linux had native USB 2.0 audio support like the MAC's OS?  Are you running your Regen's back to back?  That pins thing must be to just get as many of these built to keep up with demand.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> I like the way it lights up blue!  Looking forward to your report.  What power supply are you using?


 
  
 Schiit Wyrd at the moment. Pyst USB cable, and the custom Mogami SPDIF->AES cable I had made. Seems like the DAC has no issue at all picking up auto-selecting SPDIF on the AES input. I'd still like native AES from the DDC, but for now this is great.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> I like the way it lights up blue!  Looking forward to your report.  What power supply are you using?


 
  
 I thought the translucent case would be fun. I've got another similar case in a deep red that might look cool, too.


----------



## leggoslave

mhamel said:


>


 
  
 I believe I've ordered the same extruded Aluminum case as you off eBay and going by your report will be needing another one.
  
 Where did you get the blue plastic case above mate?


----------



## mhamel

leggoslave said:


> I believe I've ordered the same extruded Aluminum case as you off eBay and going by your report will be needing another one.
> 
> Where did you get the blue plastic case above mate?


 
 It's a bummer about the aluminum case as it's really nicely built. They have a wider model that would require mounting via standoffs, but the next available length is too long and would need to be cut down or the RCA jack removed from the board and replaced with a panel mount connector.
  
 The translucent case is a Hammond 1591XXCTBU - I picked it up from Amazon for < $8.00.


----------



## lateboomer

Yeah, I think Linux have native support for usb 2.0. Anyway, I am not very much tech savy so I think no harm to install the driver to the HqPlayer Windows 10 music server.  
  
 Ok my connection path will be like this:
  
 Intel Nuc Linux streamer --> AQ jitterbug with V5 and gnd blocked by paper strips --> Cabledyne usb cable --> Regen green with external 8 VDC LPS --> Furutech usb cable --> Regen amber with external 8 VDC LPS --> short A to B usb connector --> F1 --> Oehlbach XXL spdif cable --> DAC
  
  
 What a mouthful to describe the connection. I will consider to try out DC iPurifier and iPurifier2 if I get them.


----------



## leggoslave

mhamel said:


> It's a bummer about the aluminum case as it's really nicely built. They have a wider model that would require mounting via standoffs, but the next available length is too long and would need to be cut down or the RCA jack removed from the board and replaced with a panel mount connector.
> 
> The translucent case is a Hammond 1591XXCTBU - I picked it up from Amazon for < $8.00.


 
  
 Thanks.
  
 BTW, was this the ill-fitting Aluminum case off eBay?


----------



## mhamel

leggoslave said:


> Thanks.
> 
> BTW, was this the ill-fitting Aluminum case off eBay?


 
  
 Ahh, no. I had ordered one of the 820 series of this enclosure: http://phoenixmecano.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Alubos-Catalog.pdf


----------



## leggoslave

mhamel said:


> Ahh, no. I had ordered one of the 820 series of this enclosure: http://phoenixmecano.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Alubos-Catalog.pdf


 
  
 Ok, my misunderstanding. So there's still hope for the one I bought. I'll report on it when I receive it.
  
 Those Alubos cases are really nice as well, perhaps they can be adapted, cut-down as you say.


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> Yeah, I think Linux have native support for usb 2.0. Anyway, I am not very much tech savy so I think no harm to install the driver to the HqPlayer Windows 10 music server.
> 
> Ok my connection path will be like this:
> 
> ...


 

 A Greenie!  and a Amber - sweet set-up
  
 Good Luck!


----------



## ginetto61

> Sorry wrong message
> Good day to everyone
> gino


----------



## hugoboss

AT LAST F1 ARRIVED!

  
  
  

  
  

  
  
 these will be my test setup
  
 1. DAC
 Aune s16
 Audio GD NOS 7 2016 edition
 Centrance mini CX
  
 2. Amplifier
 Cayin Tube AMP A88T-MK2
 PSVANE KT88 T2 power tube 4pcs. Tungsol 6SL7 , 6SN7
  
 3. Speaker
 PSB Synchronize TWO-B
  
 4.Coaxial Cable DIY 26awg OCC silver gold
 5. Dual Head USB Cable DIY 26AWG OCC silver gold
  
 6. IFI Micro IUSB 3.0
  
 7. Linear PSU using talema 5 volt for usb power 5volt
  
  
 quick test with aune s16
 first test without ifi micro iusb in the chain. just using usb with 5volt to linear psu
 the sound....
  
 TREBLE Is sooo extended , alot of air, without any fatique (the quality of the treble is above ifi iusb3 if iam remember)
 this little device sound almost same like the ifi usb 3 with more extended treble
 iam listening with chinese song female voice "LEI TING"
  
 the most impact i listen is the quality of treble and the background detail , so much detail exposed specialty the background detail.
 i will post next impression with the audio gd nos 7. and with ifi iusb 3 in more detail.
 so far iam very impressed with device


----------



## panhead

Hello
  
 My F1 arrived yesterday.   I contacted the seller and he has provided a link to the driver but it downloads a cloud service,   all in Chinese and prompts for a password but I dont seem to be able to download a driver.     Anyone have a suggestion or can send me a driver?
  
 Thanks


----------



## hugoboss

FOR ALL who need driver here i uploaded it personal for you all
  
 http://www.mediafire.com/download/jma92ool3p16q3p/Singxer-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver_v3.20.0.exe


----------



## lateboomer

I managed to hook up everything and the first listening is very satisfying and I grinned from ear to ear. Compared to the streamer's usb output via Jitterbug to Soulnote dac, the F-1 gives much more extension at the treble and bass, exactly same signature like turntable playing, but absolutely transparent background. It is more musical like a super duper analog setup if someone listens through curtain and has to make a guess. Having said that the usb audio is no bad at all, as I use ethernet fiber optic and good LPS setup; So it is also very decent sounding and not fatigue but it just not as extended as F-1, and the mid range such as Ernie Ford's voice has a little tinge of harshness compared to F-1. So music is a bit bland for usb audio and long listening makes you fell bored. In contrary for F-1, the high note of guitar plucking is so realistic and authentic harmonics. I would say this F-1 product is one of my best buy (could be the best) in audio hobby.  Thank you for introducing this product.


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> AT LAST F1 ARRIVED!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!  That Cayin Tube 88 amp is a very sweet piece of gear - drool worthy!


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> I managed to hook up everything and the first listening is very satisfying and I grinned from ear to ear. Compared to the streamer's usb output via Jitterbug to Soulnote dac, the F-1 gives much more extension at the treble and bass, exactly same signature like turntable playing, but absolutely transparent background. It is more musical like a super duper analog setup if someone listens through curtain and has to make a guess. Having said that the usb audio is no bad at all, as I use ethernet fiber optic and good LPS setup; So it is also very decent sounding and not fatigue but it just not as extended as F-1, and the mid range such as Ernie Ford's voice has a little tinge of harshness compared to F-1. So music is a bit bland for usb audio and long listening makes you fell bored. In contrary for F-1, the high note of guitar plucking is so realistic and authentic harmonics. I would say this F-1 product is one of my best buy (could be the best) in audio hobby.  Thank you for introducing this product.


 

 Great report!  You're welcome.   The reports are overwhelmingly positive for the F-1.  I agree one of the most transformative audio products and an incredible bargain. 
  
 And it'll of course get better with a few hundred hours of run time
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

currawong said:


> Neutrik make an adaptor which has the necessary transformer built in. I rather regret selling the ones I had -- I never thought I'd need them again.
> 
> 
> I wondered if you were crazy when I saw your latest ratings for the Audiophilleo, but it looks like USB electronics have caught up enough that expensive converters aren't necessary any longer.
> ...


 

 Yes I thought the Audiophilleo2 was good - but not as good as these new breed devices.


----------



## wushuliu

Hm, okay. I have a very limited budget. So I'm wondering if F1 + cheaper DAC (like $300 MyDac or DACiT) > iDAC2 w/Purifier...


----------



## hugoboss

update
  
 now ifi microiusb 3.0 put in the chain so the chain is like this
  
 pc
 usb dual head cable one to
 psu linear 5volt the other to
 ifi usb 3
 f1 coax out
 coax in aune s16
 the effect is better but not as dramatic change when pc-f1-aune s16.
  
 so in my ear , i can live with just f1 without ifi usb 3. but with both in chain is better


----------



## hugoboss

wushuliu said:


> Hm, okay. I have a very limited budget. So I'm wondering if F1 + cheaper DAC (like $300 MyDac or DACiT) > iDAC2 w/Purifier...


 

 i will test f1 with my most cheapest dac centrance mini
 i will post the impression just wait .
  
 so far the effect with $700 dac is very good


----------



## prot

currawong said:


> I was with a Raspberry Pi running Ubuntu, but it wont output audio over USB lately and I don't know why. I tend to get excellent results using an iPad as a transport, though it wont always connect straight-away to the F-1, so I've been using my MacBook Air mostly. That goes into an iUSB 3.0 with an Aurorasound PSU (for their USB Bus Power unit). It has pushed the Yggy over the edge, much as using a Schiit Wyrd or the Audiophilleo did for the Chord Hugo before. Now if there was some means to put it inside the Yggy, that'd be much neater.


 
Inside is so much better than outside 

And I find it somewhat funny that everyone around here invests so much time and money in those usb digital devices but noone asks the simple, obvious question: what is the best digital interface?


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Inside is so much better than outside
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes - I'm sure the genius audio designers at Chord, Aqua Hi-Fi, Schiit, to name a few have spoken with their sota newest DACs - all USB and SPDIF!
  
 My favorite is the Chord DAVE - $13000 of DAC greatness.  But no i2s, only USB and SPDIF...question answered
  

  

  
  
 Cheers
  
 PS Has your F-1 arrived yet?


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Yes - I'm sure the genius audio designers at Chord, Aqua Hi-Fi, Schiit, to name a few have spoken with their sota newest DACs - all USB and SPDIF!
> My favorite is the Chord DAVE - $13000 of DAC greatness.  *But no i2s, only USB and SPDIF...question answered*
> Cheers
> PS Has your F-1 arrived yet?


 
  
 Hi .. well honestly i spot some more options​ like the "nice" AES/EBU for instance but also some very nice bnc ...


----------



## roger7

prot said:


> Inside is so much better than outside
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You shouldn't find it funny because there isn't the best digital interface yet. All have its drawbacks. And it all depends on other devices you have in the chain and their capabilities, especially in digital signal processing.
 SPDIF - it was not designed for hi-fi, just mainly for debug purposes AFAIK. So its simple, not complicated, does not care about errors, no flow control, no error correction. But became standard in consumer audio equipment because was widely used and no better standard existed 30 years ago. But it must squeeze all three (four) signals needed for digital audio transmission into one. In 99% implementation is synchronous. Transmitter has is own clock, receiver has own and the receiver must recover the correct clock just from one mixed signal.
 AES/EBU (AES3) is just balanced variation of SPDIF for professional studios that offers longer connections and is less prone to interference.
 USB - it was not designed for hi-fi but for computers and peripherals, just to replace old serial/ps communication. But it could be asynchronous at least.
 I2S - It's not a standard at all. It's just internal connection between transport and DAC. Different in different implementations. Could have different physical connectors (3 x BNC, RJ45, HDMI, etc.). No pinout standard. So when improperly connected can result in from no sound to device damage. So most DAC manufacturers don't want to take risk of this nor to explain to everybody why i2s connection is not working with particular transport. So i2s is more oriented for people with DYI skills. Audio-gd is  known manufacturer who equips its DAC with i2s (rj45, hdmi as option) because they allow some DYI (open case to change jumpers inside, change USB card, etc).
 So good DDI (USB->SPDIF) can replace poor transmitter but can't change the DAC spdif receiver capabilities. Just offers better signal and hopes DAC spdif receiver recover it well.
 I think we are still waiting for digital interface designed especially for hi-fi


----------



## ginetto61

Hi,
  


roger7 said:


> You shouldn't find it funny because *there isn't the best digital interface yet. All have its drawbacks*.
> And it all depends on other devices you have in the chain and their capabilities, especially in digital signal processing. ....
> I think we are still waiting for digital interface designed especially for hi-fi


 
  
 And what about *Gigabit Ethernet ? * could it be a viable option as a better interface ? it can transfer up to 10 Gbit/s


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> albrecht said:
> 
> 
> > Hi rb,
> ...






> Quote:
> the 1.5M (as Audio Sens claim is the optimal length to inhibit back wave reflections)



I need to look into this as it is the first time I am hearing it.

Hmm back wave reflections? ?
Was that for VHF/UHF signals?
And are our spdif signals in the VHF/UHF range in which it would apply?
Sorry not able to read that article right now to find out for myself.

Frankly, I have a hard time believing the need for a LONGERRR CABLE. .. 

I Think it's just a ploy to sell higher priced cables, 
ha.


----------



## Yviena

Is it not impossible to get under 50ps jitter with SPDIF because there are no SPDIF receivers under 50ps?, lowest i can find is the dir9001 or the wm8804/8805.
 Technically a straight usb to i2s connection would be much better by bypassing the receiver


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi .. well honestly i spot some more options​ like the "nice" AES/EBU for instance but also some very nice bnc ...


 

 Ok a little primer on SPDIF - it comes in four basic flavors bus all based on the same protocol:Two Coax with different connectors BNC and RCA (both 75 ohm and interchangeable with a simple adapter), Optical, and AES which is a balanced version using a XLR connector and 110 ohms (it is SPDIF but with a high gain and high impedance - so can run longer lengths) - AES with an adapter (to convert 110ohms to 75 ohms and a 10dB attenuator - to prevent damaging or overloading the SPDIF Coax receiver) can work straight into a SPDIF RCA or BNC connection.
  
 So Gino as I said the $13,000 new Chord DAVE DAC does SPDIF and USB ONLY!


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Is it not impossible to get under 50ps jitter with SPDIF because there are no SPDIF receivers under 50ps?, lowest i can find is the dir9001 or the wm8804/8805.
> Technically a straight usb to i2s connection would be much better by bypassing the receiver


 

 Not true at all - see the test specs for the Chord DAVE - 8ps at 96k on SPDIF.  If 'technically' a straight USB to i2s was much better Chord would have included it on their statement DAVE DAC.  The excuse that they didn't because their owners are not 'DIY' or too dumb to figure it out - is absurd.


----------



## Yviena

rb2013 said:


> Not true at all - see the test specs for the Chord DAVE - 8ps at 96k on SPDIF.  If 'technically' a straight USB to i2s was much better Chord would have included it on their statement DAVE DAC.  The excuse that they didn't because their owners are not 'DIY' or too dumb to figure it out - is absurd.



Well it probably depends on what dac they have, i have listened to some sub 1000$ dacs and hdmi i2s did improve many of them.

Im kinda wondering what the new dacs that are gonna use the new ess9038pro will sound like. All dac chips on the market now are like 5-6 years old already.


----------



## panhead

hugoboss said:


> FOR ALL who need driver here i uploaded it personal for you all
> 
> http://www.mediafire.com/download/jma92ool3p16q3p/Singxer-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver_v3.20.0.exe


 
 Many thanks for the help!!   The F1 is playing as I type.    Somewhat warmer than the Breeze,  will play overnight and post my further impressions.
  
  
 Interface progression so far:
  
 Audiophileo - then with Pure power,    Gustard U10,   Gustard  U12,  Melodious,    Breeze,  Melodious 1.7 and now the F1.          Its been a fun trip so far!
  
  
 Has anyone tried these drivers in Server 2012??
  
  
 Thanks again.


----------



## mhamel

So, back on topic...
  
 It looks like it is going to be easy to A/B the F-1 against my DAC's built-in input. Using JRMC, I have the F-1 and the internal USB set up as independent devices inside of a link. For anyone not familiar with JRMC, that will allow it to send the same data to both interfaces at the same time. I've confirmed already that timing differences if any are not audible (at least in my setup, ymmv). The DAC switches seamlessly between native USB and F1->SPDIF. Going back to USB incurs a brief mute, almost instant but not quite.
  
 The native USB on this DAC is excellent (it is also XMOS based, older chipset), but I can already hear some subtle differences with the F-1.  Very early initial impressions favor the F-1... I'll wait until the F-1 has 100 or so hours of playback on it before doing any critical listening.
  
 One place where the F-1 already wins is stability. Despite them using the same version XMOS driver (which from what I can tell after dissecting the installer packages are only different in that they're hard coded to recognize only the device they are built for) the F-1 has not had a single hiccup over the past 24 hours where the built-in XMOS interface on the DAC loses sync once a day or so. Even if I wasn't able to hear differences, that alone would make it a keeper.
  
    -Mike


----------



## wushuliu

mhamel said:


> So, back on topic...
> 
> It looks like it is going to be easy to A/B the F-1 against my DAC's built-in input. Using JRMC, I have the F-1 and the internal USB set up as independent devices inside of a link. For anyone not familiar with JRMC, that will allow it to send the same data to both interfaces at the same time. I've confirmed already that timing differences if any are not audible (at least in my setup, ymmv). The DAC switches seamlessly between native USB and F1->SPDIF. Going back to USB incurs a brief mute, almost instant but not quite.
> 
> ...


 
 Which DAC are using?


----------



## mhamel

wushuliu said:


> Which DAC are using?


 
  
 Dangerous Music Convert-2 - http://dangerousmusic.com/product/convert-2/
  
 It retired my Yggrasil, which I just sold.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Ok a little primer on SPDIF - it comes in four basic flavors bus all based on the same protocol:Two Coax with different connectors BNC and RCA (both 75 ohm and interchangeable with a simple adapter), Optical, and AES which is a balanced version using a XLR connector and 110 ohms (it is SPDIF but with a high gain and high impedance - so can run longer lengths) - AES with an adapter (to convert 110ohms to 75 ohms and a 10dB attenuator - to prevent damaging or overloading the SPDIF Coax receiver) can work straight into a SPDIF RCA or BNC connection.
> So Gino as I said the $13,000 new Chord DAVE DAC does SPDIF and USB ONLY!


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the valuable explanation.
 I think i understand.  There is only a common spdif out with different input connections ?  very good indeed !  i like choice.
*Personally i love bnc with its bayonet connector.*
 My reasoning is very simple and possibly wrong.  It is a connection of this type that can be found in GHz scopes.
 If it is good for them it can be also good for an audio dac.
 To be honest i really do not understand why BNC is not the standard de facto on high level units.  It is also very very cheap to build.
 Instead i hate deeply RCA.  You never ever see an RCA on a scope.  Never.  Is this not a clue ?
 I read about the Chord and it must really be something special.
 Unfortunately the technology employed make the product extremely expensive.
 I just hope that one day the same technology will be more affordable.
 In the meantime i took the plunge and ordered a Gustard X20.
 Hoping that it will sound better than my Apogee.
 Not that the Apogee is a dog ... actually mated with a Melodious DDC via AES/EBU
 has provided me with the best sound i have experienced in my humble system.
 Thanks a lot again
 gino


----------



## prot

roger7 said:


> You shouldn't find it funny because there isn't the best digital interface yet. All have its drawbacks. And it all depends on other devices you have in the chain and their capabilities, especially in digital signal processing.
> 
> SPDIF - it was not designed for hi-fi, just mainly for debug purposes AFAIK. So its simple, not complicated, does not care about errors, no flow control, no error correction. But became standard in consumer audio equipment because was widely used and no better standard existed 30 years ago. But it must squeeze all three (four) signals needed for digital audio transmission into one. In 99% implementation is synchronous. Transmitter has is own clock, receiver has own and the receiver must recover the correct clock just from one mixed signal.
> 
> ...




A good resume of available interfaces. But I think you wanted to say that "the perfect" interface does not exist .. and it may never exist. But "the best" surely does (as in "the best sounding"). 
 Since most Dac chips natively speak i2s, that is the shortest and simplest path to a Dac's 'heart' .. I'm no EE but simple logic says that i2s should be the best sounding. Surely it's the least convenient atm, but that's an acceptable sacrifice when you want the best sound 

P.S.
most peole around here use Usb chains-of-pain with more than 5 devices/cables/etc. Doubtful that anyone cares about convenience here.


----------



## Currawong

prot said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > I was with a Raspberry Pi running Ubuntu, but it wont output audio over USB lately and I don't know why. I tend to get excellent results using an iPad as a transport, though it wont always connect straight-away to the F-1, so I've been using my MacBook Air mostly. That goes into an iUSB 3.0 with an Aurorasound PSU (for their USB Bus Power unit). It has pushed the Yggy over the edge, much as using a Schiit Wyrd or the Audiophilleo did for the Chord Hugo before. Now if there was some means to put it inside the Yggy, that'd be much neater.
> ...


 

 I'm going to entertain this. The answer is: Because there isn't one. Where is your music? If it's on a computer, then there is, most of the time, only one digital output, and that is USB. Every type of interface you convert to has its own pros and cons. Optical doesn't carry noise, but it high jitter. For S/PDIF read *this article about transports*. AES is less susceptible to noise, but may suffer due to the quality of the transformers on either end. Maybe we can use a streaming server, so the computer, and the noisy, unsuitable USB is out of the equation. But the streaming server IS a computer. The same questions arise again with the output.
  
 Then, someone with a different DAC will have different experiences for who knows what reasons.  The funny thing is, every well-known DAC designer who has been at it for many years had to start all over again with USB, and they all took years before they could implement anything really well, especially if high-res was involved. Even recent designs still have issues!


----------



## hugoboss

update listening with centrance mini cx
 this is for some people asking if f1 helps a cheap dac sound better?
  

  
  
 the answer?
  
 F1 Help Centrance sound so much better compare to it's own usb .
 all become more clear, lot of detail , treble also very extended.
 fyi..
 i have long forgotten my first dac this centrance, after so many dac comes aune s16,hugo,audio gd nos7
 today listen to it with f1 its really become like another different dac liek a new stereoid pump inside centrance
 detail, treble, soundstage all become clearer , more dynamic.
 so you should try this F1, it is magic for all dac
  
  
 next f1 with audiogd new nos 7 2016 edition


----------



## hugoboss

as for the best digital interface available now i know it is i2s . but you know what there is big BUT ??
  
 it is a headache . pain in the ***
 because I2S is not a standard that every dac used
 ps audio audiogd gustard, whatever i2s dac , all have its own pin different, it is so much pain to finally find the correct pin , after you find the correct one, it need a very short hdmi cable or lan cable,
 then if you want to use occ cable with i2s cable? you will waste alot alot money for the occ cable.i2s need so much more cable compare to usb (4cable sometimes just 2) or coax (2 cables) , i2s hdmi = alot alot cable if you want to make diy super cable like occ silver or silver gold,
 last you must be very careful when using i2s, never ever disconnect the cable when your dac is on. whatever accident happen  liek the cable got disconnect you got risk to damaged your dac
 ,for me i2s = to much money to invest
 i am also want to use hdmi i2s for my audio gd nos7 but it still a long way to go. to many problem to just to make it connect.
  
 so now iam satisfied with either f1, ifi usb 3, or both combo. maybe in the future will try i2s
  
  
 iam very sure this new xmos xcore 208 will become standard in many dac brand next year or even now , the sound is to good


----------



## ginetto61

hugoboss said:


> update listening with centrance mini cx
> *this is for some people asking if f1 helps a cheap dac sound better?  *


 
  
 Yeeesss !!!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


> *the answer?   F1 Help Centrance sound so much better compare to it's own usb .*
> *all become more clear, lot of detail , treble also very extended.*
> fyi..
> i have long forgotten my first dac this centrance, after so many dac comes aune s16,hugo,audio gd nos7
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting test.  I have a bag full of cheap dacs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Are you using only a usb cable to connect the F1 to your pc or are you using also some other devices like usb power supplies, isolators or reclockers ?
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## hugoboss

ginetto61 said:


> Yeeesss !!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 i used dual head usb cable . and 5volt linear power supplies.
 so the 5volt usb power come from linear psu the pc usb only send data. then it connect to f1. from f1 to dac using my diy coax cable
 actually centrance is not a cheap dac but it's the cheapest dac i have now. i got centrance when it release 6 years ago about $600-700.
 so in my opinion a 6 years old dac can become like a steroid injected sound with this little f1 . you can call it magic


----------



## hgpsemaj

currawong said:


> I'm going to entertain this. The answer is: Because there isn't one. Where is your music? If it's on a computer, then there is, most of the time, only one digital output, and that is USB.


 
  
  
  
 Excuse me, may I output those digital data via Ethernet connection? 
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *hugoboss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> i used dual head usb cable . and 5volt linear power supplies.   so the 5volt usb power come from linear psu *the pc usb only send data.*
> then it connect to f1. from f1 to dac using my diy coax cable


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot indeed again
 i assume you have used the same connection with and without the F1 ... good ! i have understood.
  


> *actually centrance is not a cheap dac but it's the cheapest dac i have now*. i got centrance when it release 6 years ago about $600-700.
> so in my opinion a 6 years old dac can become like a steroid injected sound with this little f1 . you can call it magic


 
 from what i have read it is a high quality dac indeed.
 It is not the first time that i read of a dac performing better when fed through the spdif instead of the usb port.
 This usb interface seems quite tricky to do rightly. 
 The evidence is in the continuos improvement of interfaces and various generations of better usb chip receivers.
 However a must for me is galvanic isolation.  It is important to block, as much as possible, noise coming from the PC.
 I am using a cheap usb headset (mic + headphones).  With direct connection to a usb port a lot of noise.
 With a usb passive filter in places much less noise and better sound.
 Then i understand some sort of reclocking, of the kind performed by the Regen, could be very beneficial.
 The F1 is very high on my most wanted list ... but i have to recover from the last buy ... a Gustard x20.
 Next one in line for sure.
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## prot

currawong said:


> I'm going to entertain this. The answer is: Because there isn't one. Where is your music? If it's on a computer, then there is, most of the time, only one digital output, and that is USB. Every type of interface you convert to has its own pros and cons. Optical doesn't carry noise, but it high jitter. For S/PDIF read *this article about transports*. AES is less susceptible to noise, but may suffer due to the quality of the transformers on either end. Maybe we can use a streaming server, so the computer, and the noisy, unsuitable USB is out of the equation. But the streaming server IS a computer. The same questions arise again with the output.
> 
> Then, someone with a different DAC will have different experiences for who knows what reasons.  The funny thing is, every well-known DAC designer who has been at it for many years had to start all over again with USB, and they all took years before they could implement anything really well, especially if high-res was involved. Even recent designs still have issues!




Surely there is no perfect one .. there isnt even a 'best for everything/everyone' one .. but there should be a 'best sounding' one. And that's what I wanna know .. and I'm surely not the only one. 

The setup is common for everyone and quite clear DigitallyStoredMusic -> DigitalPlayer -> Dac. 

 The shortest/simplest path being pretty much always the best, that would be a single box setup. On one side you have e.g. an rpi+2gb ssd and on the other a Dac. Connected through shortest possible i2s cable. 
Dont think it can get any shorter/simpler with today's tech. But if anyone knows better, please post.


----------



## Currawong

@prot At this stage then, you have a choice: Either go out and buy all the ones you can and find out for yourself, or do what I did and take a chance, thankfully inexpensively, on the ones people here think sounds best (with their own DACs, I might add) and duplicate their set-up to whatever degree suits your budget and tastes.
  
 Quote:


hgpsemaj said:


> Excuse me, may I output those digital data via Ethernet connection?


 
  
 Yup, that's what I meant about using a streaming server.


----------



## hgpsemaj

currawong said:


> Yup, that's what I meant about using a streaming server.


 
  
  
 Thank you for your prompt reply.
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## prot

That's all I am doing. 
Following alex's rpi/i2s development in the ddc thread. That would be my no1 bet and the most promising experiment. 

This new wave of ddc-s is a distant second. Might be the 'safe' alternative in case the rpi thing doesnt work for some reason. Hard to believe after the very encouraging start, but a safety net is always good to have. 
Still wish though that this Usb thing wasnt such a headache. And that some of the owners of F1 will post a few serious apples-to-apples comparisons with the best of last gen ddcs: puc2, tanly, hydra, etc.
Also wish I had more time to experiment myself.


----------



## wushuliu

hugoboss said:


> update listening with centrance mini cx
> this is for some people asking if f1 helps a cheap dac sound better?
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Awesome. Thanks for the update. I used to have a Centrance Dacport, they make good dacs. A Dacmini 6 years ago is equal to a $300-400 dac now...


----------



## abartels

currawong said:


> @prot At this stage then, you have a choice: Either go out and buy all the ones you can and find out for yourself, or do what I did and take a chance, thankfully inexpensively, on the ones people here think sounds best (with their own DACs, I might add) and duplicate their set-up to whatever degree suits your budget and tastes.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've got my little streaming server / client ready, RPI3 + DAC+Pro with I2S output, directly to I2S input of dac. Wires <5cm
  
 Software used:
  
 PiCorePlayer 2.04 (freeware) 75Mb on MicroSD card (card cost $5)
 LMS server 7.9 (freeware) on old windows laptop, you can also install it on linux (freeware)  and there even is also a NAS version available (freeware)
  
 Hardware used:
  
 RaspBerry Pi 3 $35
 HifiBerry DAC+ Pro $45
  
 And, of course, a good dac 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Next step will be to built-in this little RPI3/I2S interface / netwerkplayer into my DAC


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> That's all I am doing.
> Following alex's rpi/i2s development in the ddc thread. That would be my no1 bet and the most promising experiment.
> 
> This new wave of ddc-s is a distant second. Might be the 'safe' alternative in case the rpi thing doesnt work for some reason. Hard to believe after the very encouraging start, but a safety net is always good to have.
> ...


 

 I did and the F-1 blows away the Hydra Z, PUC2, Pro3a...apples to apples


----------



## rb2013

Here was the ethernet solution from the past that was discarded for USB - I still have my PCI-e to Box EMU 1616M uses CAT5 connection.  http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct05/articles/emu1616m.htm
  
 I also had the 1394b connected RME Fireface 800 - that has also fallen by the wayside replaced by USB.
 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec04/articles/fireface.htm
  
 The future will be USB-C (3.1) and Thunderbolt 3.  After that quantum entanglement 0 latency connection - because we all know that to get great audio we need 110,000,000,000,000,000Khz sampling rates and a few million bits.
  
 http://proaudioblog.co.uk/2015/09/usb-3-vs-thunderbolt-interfaces/


----------



## mhamel

A bit more on what I'm hearing so far.
  
 Switching back and forth between the C2's built-in USB and the F-1, the best word I can think of to describe what I'm hearing is that the same track through the F1 is more vibrant in just about every way. Everything is a bit more dynamic, imaging seems like it has more width and depth, I'm hearing more detail and even greater separation/layering of instruments - something the C2 already excels at - all without losing any of the tonality that I love about this DAC.
  
 Initially I was wondering if it might be a slight difference in levels, which can cause that type of change perception if one source is louder than the other, but I confirmed with a db meter and test tones that the output level from both was/is identical.
  
 So, color me impressed... this is with around 40 hours on the F-1.
  
 It does bring up the question of whether or not it's worth it to drop $300 on the SU-1 to get AES output or if it would really be any better than what I'm now hearing. Logic tells me no.. but my lifelong obsession with this #$)(%()* hobby will probably nag me until I try it. 
  
     -Mike


----------



## rb2013

And Thunderbolt is here already - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Clarett4Pre?adpos=1o1&creative=93365752201&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CJDI5p7Qp8wCFUKUfgodn_ABFQ


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> A bit more on what I'm hearing so far.
> 
> Switching back and forth between the C2's built-in USB and the F-1, the best word I can think of to describe what I'm hearing is that the same track through the F1 is more vibrant in just about every way. Everything is a bit more dynamic, imaging seems like it has more width and depth, I'm hearing more detail and even greater separation/layering of instruments - something the C2 already excels at - all without losing any of the tonality that I love about this DAC.
> 
> ...


 

 Your internal USB card is connected by i2s and the F-1 SPDIF coax - hum....


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> And Thunderbolt is here already - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Clarett4Pre?adpos=1o1&creative=93365752201&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CJDI5p7Qp8wCFUKUfgodn_ABFQ


 


> Why Thunderbolt? Thunderbolt is a little different to interfaces like USB and FireWire. It brings the PCI Express interface – used for super fast graphics cards and other slots inside the computer – out to external devices. It’s not so much an interface as a bus that gives you direct access to the machine’s inner workings. And as a result, it’s ideal for audio, with exceptionally high speed and correspondingly low latency – making possible the astonishingly low round-trip latency figures that Clarett offers – and unparalleled flexibility. At Focusrite, we’re convinced that Thunderbolt is the interface of the future – especially in the creative professional environment – and the Clarett range demonstrates many of the significant benefits that Thunderbolt provides.


 
  
 My next server project will be a Mini Mac using this device connected by Thunderbolt 3
  
 PS In fact will start a new thread today on Thunderbolt and the Focusrite Clarett 4PRe 8Pre and 8PreX.
  


> Support was added to Intel's Skylake architecture chipsets, shipping during late 2015 into early 2016.[53][54][55]
> 
> Devices with Thunderbolt 3 ports began shipping at the beginning of December 2015, including notebooks running Microsoft Windows (fromAcer, Asus, Clevo, Dell, Dell Alienware, Lenovo, MSI, and Sony), as well as motherboards (from Gigabyte Technology), and a 0.5m Thunderbolt 3 passive USB-C cable (from Lintes Technology).[57]


 


> While Thunderbolt has had poor hardware support outside of Apple devices and been relegated to a niche gadget port, the adoption of the Thunderbolt 3 using USB-C connector standard into a wide array of hardware bodes well for market acceptance of the standard.


 


> With the introduction of Thunderbolt 3, Intel announced that otherwise-standard passive USB type-C cables will be able to connect Thunderbolt devices at lower speeds than full active Thunderbolt cables, but still faster than USB 3.1.[77] This allows for cheaper connections to new Thunderbolt devices, with inexpensive USB type-C cables costing noticeably less than active Thunderbolt cables.


 
Intel's Thunderbolt 3 controller (codenamed _Alpine Ridge_) doubles the bandwidth to 40 Gbit/s (5 GB/s)


----------



## rb2013

Ok The Thunderbolt Thread is up http://www.head-fi.org/t/806121/thunderbolt-for-audio-is-this-the-next-computer-audio-standard


----------



## wushuliu

So since I have an iPurifier 2 could I just get the X-1 instead of the F-1? How big is the performance gap between X-1 and F-1?


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Not true at all - see the test specs for the Chord DAVE - 8ps at 96k on SPDIF.  If 'technically' a straight USB to i2s was much better Chord would have included it on their statement DAVE DAC.  The excuse that they didn't because their owners are not 'DIY' or too dumb to figure it out - is absurd.


 
  
 I don't understand. USB in Chord Dave, as in most other DACs, is just USB to i2s connection.
 What I was talking about is external i2s to i2s connection between transport and DAC. Because it's not a standard, manufacturers don't want to take risk and go into trouble with different transports and their different i2s external pinouts (at least).
 But those who offer top transports for their DACs often include some kind of i2s connection with fancy name. And then they claim it is the best connection between their devices (of course mostly not compatible with others DACs/transports).
 I think there are 2 reasons:
 1. They know exactly how to connect their transport with their transport not risking that the customers will complain that i2s doesn't work with others devices. Not risking device damage.
 2. They "kindly" encourage customers to buy their entire combo (DAC and transport).
  
 Examples:
 You mentioned: Aqua Acoustic La Diva and La Scala - AQlink i2s
 ACCUPHASE DP-900 and DC-901 - HS-link. Their transport only has coax and hs-link output. This is great encouragement.
 MSB Technology: All their DACs and transports have "Pro I2S" connection
 http://www.msbtech.com/products/platinumHome.php
 And MSB SELECT DAC costs just $89950 in standard version...
 So it's not easy to say that none of top DAC designers does not include i2s. They do if they see benefits and money.

 Is i2s better than spdif/usb? IMHO, should be but all depends on implementation and other devices in chain.


----------



## roger7

prot said:


> A good resume of available interfaces. But I think you wanted to say that "the perfect" interface does not exist .. and it may never exist. But "the best" surely does (as in "the best sounding").
> Since most Dac chips natively speak i2s, that is the shortest and simplest path to a Dac's 'heart' .. I'm no EE but simple logic says that i2s should be the best sounding. Surely it's the least convenient atm, but that's an acceptable sacrifice when you want the best sound
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It's not so simple IMHO.
 If all "shortest paths" were the best ones we wouldn't see any separated amplifiers and preamps, DACs and transports.

 For computer audio i2s connection with DAC is hard to achieve.
 Solution you are talking about is RPI3 + DAC+ Pro with i2s like this
 https://support.hifiberry.com/hc/en-us/articles/205711451-DAC-Pro-connect-external-I2S-DACs
 But it needs soldering, voids warranty and you have to know how to connect it with your DAC (of course with external i2s). You are limited to linux OS and players. I like convenience and freedom of LMS (logitech media server with hardware and software players) but there are people who prefer jplay, jriver or audirvana.
 And this all is not plug and play like "Usb chains-of-pain with more than 5 devices/cables/etc". As I said before it's more for people w DIY skills, not for everyone who just want to play and listen. And can't compare before buying with your setup and send it back if you don't like it.
  
 BTW: Have you got a chance to listen to such combo RPI3 + DAC+ Pro i2s to DAC and compare it with others?
  
 There is a PCI-E i2s computer card: PinkFaun I2S Bridge ST
 http://www.pinkfaun.nl/portal/productaanbod/dac-streaming-audio/1440-i2s-bridge
 http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/pinkfaun_i2s_bridge_e.html
  
 Maarten van Druten at Audio Dandy at first was using this card in his htpc computer with Audio-gd Master 7 DAC. He prefered it to Audio-gd built-in usb (I think Via chip)
 http://www.modelpromo.nl/PinkFaun_I2S_Bridge.htm
 http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio-GD_Master-7.htm
 But after upgrading the audio-gd usb to amareno combo 384 he prefered usb connection to simplest i2s
 http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio-GD_Master7-Amanero.htm
  
 So it's not so simple as "shortest path"


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> So since I have an iPurifier 2 could I just get the X-1 instead of the F-1? How big is the performance gap between X-1 and F-1?


 

 Did a faceoff last night - the X-1 is very, very good - but the F-1 is better.
  
 Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - like when you see charts with 1990 dollars - or what ever reference point is chosen - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
  
Here would be my current ranking and ratings obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned all these for an extended period of time:
 
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2  170
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen              135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                     130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2   125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                         110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                 109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                     108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                             100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                   92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                           85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                        81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                  76
Gustard U12 stock                                                 72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                    65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                    65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                             60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                       50
M2Tech Hiface                                                       40


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> I don't understand. USB in Chord Dave, as in most other DACs, is just USB to i2s connection.
> What I was talking about is external i2s to i2s connection between transport and DAC. Because it's not a standard, manufacturers don't want to take risk and go into trouble with different transports and their different i2s external pinouts (at least).
> But those who offer top transports for their DACs often include some kind of i2s connection with fancy name. And then they claim it is the best connection between their devices (of course mostly not compatible with others DACs/transports).
> I think there are 2 reasons:
> ...


 

 You make a very good point - some manufacters include i2s.  I never said that ALL top DAC designers exclide i2s external connections, only that a very strong group of designers have ommitted external i2s connection on their statement latest DACs.  It's interesting that even when a top DAC has an external i2s connection I see reviewers using SPDIF - like the 6moons review of the LaScala MK2.
  
 I'm also not arguing that i2s can be slightly better then SPDIF, as BNC SPDIF is slightly better then RCA, or that AES is not slightly better then coax SPDIF.  Where I think this i2s train has left the tracks is that some see it as 'THE ONLY' proper audio connection.  USB and SPDIF, because of some technical arguements should just be consided no good.
 And it your DAC, DDC, or whatever doesn't have it - it has no chance of producing great sound.  This is the MEGA-HYPE that some accuse me of.  And I just wanted to point out that many sota newest DACs, like the Chord DAVE.
  
 Same goes for native DSD - as Schiit puts it:


> *What about DSD?*
> Yggdrasil won’t do DSD, no way, no how.
> 
> *But what if I want DSD?*
> ...


 
  
 My hope is that Thunderbolt 3 will become the universal high end audio connection.  With a new internal one to replace i2s
  
 BTW that post you quote me was in response this post - which I consider not accurate - I have no idea where this 50ps number came from as the OP did not post a link (all to common here - IMO ridiculous statements under mining mine with nothing to substantiate them)


yviena said:


> Is it not impossible to get under 50ps jitter with SPDIF because there are no SPDIF receivers under 50ps?, lowest i can find is the dir9001 or the wm8804/8805.
> Technically a straight usb to i2s connection would be much better by bypassing the receiver


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> It's not so simple IMHO.
> If all "shortest paths" were the best ones we wouldn't see any separated amplifiers and preamps, DACs and transports.
> 
> For computer audio i2s connection with DAC is hard to achieve.
> ...


 

 Bravo!  Nice post with links to back up the comments.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Especially this:


> But it needs soldering, voids warranty and you have to know how to connect it with your DAC (of course with external i2s). You are limited to linux OS and players. I like convenience and freedom of LMS (logitech media server with hardware and software players) but there are people who prefer jplay, jriver or audirvana.
> And this all is not plug and play like "Usb chains-of-pain with more than 5 devices/cables/etc". As I said before it's more for people w DIY skills, not for everyone who just want to play and listen. And can't compare before buying with your setup and send it back if you don't like it.


 
 Has anyone tried this RUNE player?  Not my solution for sure - not with 15,000 WAV Redbook files, another 5000 176k/32 WAV files (digitalized LPs).  I have over 72 painstakingly created playlists for Foobar.  Some a large as 3,000 files, some with just a few hundred.


----------



## rb2013

BTW here is SPDIF reciever that can go as low as 4specs - that took around 3 minutes of Google search - I bet there are better.
 http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/ENA1056-D.PDF


----------



## Yviena

Well i admit my mistake about the 50ps jitter thing, but everywhere i look they mention 50ps for those most commonly used spdif recievers like wm8805/dir9001 says intrinsic period jitter of 50 ps RMS, even the cirrus datasheet mentions it.

https://www.cirrus.com/en/mobile/products/pro/detail/P1262.html

sorry if it came across that way, i didn't really mean to spread misinformation.


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Well i admit my mistake about the 50ps jitter thing, but everywhere i look they mention 50ps for those most commonly used spdif recievers like wm8805/dir9001 says intrinsic period jitter of 50 ps RMS, even the cirrus datasheet mentions it.
> 
> https://www.cirrus.com/en/mobile/products/pro/detail/P1262.html
> 
> sorry if it came across that way, i didn't really mean to spread misinformation.


 

 Well you are correct regarding those older reciever chips - but a new class of chips are available.  Also interesting is the new class of electo-optical transformers capable of 192k - as the older where limited to 96k.
  
 In fact DIYinHK just released this http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/83-192k-optical-spdif-receiver.html
  
 Of course their are FPGA and discrete SPDIF receivers available - both coax and optical.
  
 That is what Chord implemented in DAVE - with 192k optical and 384k BNC coax.
  
 Actually Chord has been doing ultra low jitter - ultra high throughput on SPDIF for some time - specs from the Hugo TT DAC - this was using the older FPGA Spartan implementation:
  
Inputs​​ ​ - 1x Optical TOSLink 24-bit/192KHz-capable​​ - 1x BNC coaxial input 32-bit/384kHz -capable​​ - 1x HD/SD USB B-type input up to 32-bit/384kHz​


----------



## Yviena

Do you know the product name of thos new spdif chips?

Hmm so i guessed right that the chord was doing spdif via fpga.

Now Im kinda itching to upgrade my dac again even if the schiit gumby sounds really good, im probably going to wait to 2017 for the new sabre dacs.


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Do you know the product name of thos new spdif chips?
> 
> Hmm so i guessed right that the chord was doing spdif via fpga.
> 
> Im kinda itching to upgrade my dac again even if the schiit gumby sounds really good, im probably going to wait to 2017 for the new sabre dacs.


 

 I believe also implemented a ultra low jitter FPGA SPDIF solution in the Yggie.  I posted the datasheet link to the Onsemi in my link above - not saying it could work with your DAC.  I would suggest an easier route - plug and play  -the W4S Remedy.  This also reclocks using Crytek CCHD 975 clocks - it may not lower the technical jitter readings of your DAC, but will get the real world levels as low as possible.
  
 I used a VIABLUE connector on my Lite DAC60 - the sound improvement was excellent.  I have it powered by a 9VDC 1uv iPower
  

  
 Funny the Recovery had little effect on my APL DAC which has a discrete SPDIF receiver with ultra low jitter.  But on the Lite DAC60 using the excellent sounding, but slightly high jitter Crystal CS8414 receiver, the results where outstanding.
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/wyred/2.html


----------



## Yviena

Nice one thing i recommend doing is to see if your dac can work with a RF attentuator using the BNC input, If you have one.


----------



## somestranger26

My F-1 is supposed to ship within a day or two, and I'm investigating how to use I2S with my Audio-GD Master 11. I spoke with Kingwa since it seemed strange that the F-1 supports HDMI output and yet there's no differential signaling (such as MCLK+ and MCLK-). He said that it will not work with Audio-GD devices, and by extension it won't work with any devices uses the PS Audio I2S spec. However, it does sound like it can be used with RJ45 if the wires are mapped correctly. 
  
 With that in mind, I'm planning to cut the end off one of my Bluejeanscable Cat6a cables and crimp the wires into a ribbon connector to hook up to the board. Now to find the appropriate connector on ebay, etc.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> yviena said:
> 
> 
> > Well i admit my mistake about the 50ps jitter thing, but everywhere i look they mention 50ps for those most commonly used spdif recievers like wm8805/dir9001 says intrinsic period jitter of 50 ps RMS, even the cirrus datasheet mentions it.
> ...


 
  
 Toshiba made those 192kHz capable Toslink receivers and transmitters years ago but seized production. Nowadays it's a Thai manufacturer who produces 192kHz capable toslink receivers/transmitters at very low prices. Thought NEC had them too.
  
 But, to say those are new, Toshiba had them 15 to 20 years ago...


----------



## Currawong

somestranger26 said:


> My F-1 is supposed to ship within a day or two, and I'm investigating how to use I2S with my Audio-GD Master 11. I spoke with Kingwa since it seemed strange that the F-1 supports HDMI output and yet there's no differential signaling (such as MCLK+ and MCLK-). He said that it will not work with Audio-GD devices, and by extension it won't work with any devices uses the PS Audio I2S spec. However, it does sound like it can be used with RJ45 if the wires are mapped correctly.
> 
> With that in mind, I'm planning to cut the end off one of my Bluejeanscable Cat6a cables and crimp the wires into a ribbon connector to hook up to the board. Now to find the appropriate connector on ebay, etc.


 

 Does your M11 have the headers inside for I2S? If so, why not install it internally? It's much easier to map pins on the internal headers than it is to screw around with external wiring.


----------



## ciphercomplete

mhamel said:


>


 
  
 I rather like this blue box.  I have one on the way today.  I have a bunch of different sized standoffs and I think I can get the board mounted in there permanently with some work.


----------



## mhamel

ciphercomplete said:


> I rather like this blue box.  I have one on the way today.  I have a bunch of different sized standoffs and I think I can get the board mounted in there permanently with some work.




I used some small nylon standoffs, they worked great. 

Originally this was just going to be a temporary case but I may leave it as is. It fits well, doesn't look bad and I like how the LEDs shine through.


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Nice one thing i recommend doing is to see if your dac can work with a RF attentuator using the BNC input, If you have one.


 

 I have one - but just not enough room behind my DAC for it and a BNC to RCA adapter.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> My F-1 is supposed to ship within a day or two, and I'm investigating how to use I2S with my Audio-GD Master 11. I spoke with Kingwa since it seemed strange that the F-1 supports HDMI output and yet there's no differential signaling (such as MCLK+ and MCLK-). He said that it will not work with Audio-GD devices, and by extension it won't work with any devices uses the PS Audio I2S spec. However, it does sound like it can be used with RJ45 if the wires are mapped correctly.
> 
> With that in mind, I'm planning to cut the end off one of my Bluejeanscable Cat6a cables and crimp the wires into a ribbon connector to hook up to the board. Now to find the appropriate connector on ebay, etc.


 
 It looks like the new SU-1 will have jumpers to set-up for PS Audio i2s spec on hdmi.
  


abartels said:


> Toshiba made those 192kHz capable Toslink receivers and transmitters years ago but seized production. Nowadays it's a Thai manufacturer who produces 192kHz capable toslink receivers/transmitters at very low prices. Thought NEC had them too.
> 
> But, to say those are new, Toshiba had them 15 to 20 years ago...


 
 They likely have higher jitter rates anyway being those cheap electro-optical converters used (DIYinHK charges $4 for the board and all)- so not too interesting.  The Chord and Schiit FPGA solutions are better yet.  Nice if someone did an addon board to replace those old Crystal's and Wolfson's.
  


currawong said:


> Does your M11 have the headers inside for I2S? If so, why not install it internally? It's much easier to map pins on the internal headers than it is to screw around with external wiring.


 
 +1
  


mhamel said:


> I used some small nylon standoffs, they worked great.
> 
> Originally this was just going to be a temporary case but I may leave it as is. It fits well, doesn't look bad and I like how the LEDs shine through.


 

 I agree the blue is very cool.  I found an aluminum case that the board slides into perfectly.  It's just a pain to drill or cut a large enough openning for the USB connector - so I just left one side off.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/161414428256?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## rb2013

Anyway enopugh about the future and alternatives - anymore listening results with the F-1?
  
 Had a long session last night - track by track, album by album just blowing me away.  On James Taylor's 1970 'Sweet Baby James' just stunned at what the F-1 has done for this 46 yr old recording!  Typically this album can sound muffled and compressed - to the point of being boring (that and having listened to it a few thousand times) - last night it was like hearing it for the first time.
  
 Russ Kunkel's drums on 'Fire and Rain' the deepest and best tone I have ever heard, his brush work realistic.  Taylor's voice crisp with an inner lit quality - hanging precisely in the middle of the sound field - life sized.  Dynamics excellent - guitar strumming also crisp with just the right attack and decay.  Carol King's background piano rich in tone and timbre. Bobby West on the uprgith double bass - rich and sonorous, resonating with natural tone.
  
 If the F-1 can transform this 46 yr old recording into a high res like presentation - that is magic!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## seeteeyou

Finally someone had the balls to start this thread right here
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/xmos-xu208-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-bridge-28366/
  
 IMHO those replies would be predictable to say the least, and I've gotta confess that my own reaction should look pretty much like Jack Nicholson in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
  


Spoiler: Thanks Uncle Jack!


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> Finally someone had the balls to start this thread right here
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/xmos-xu208-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-bridge-28366/
> 
> ...


 

 LOL!  Got to love it!
  
 Cheers!




  
 They better get the flame suit on - well at least p**t has been banned there (even has his own thread):

  
 PS Did I call it when I mentioned price snobbery?  Of course dismissed without listening...typical CA


----------



## Albrecht

Thank you RB, - really appreciate you taking a moment to explain........
  
 Cheers,


----------



## mourip

I started the thread on CA hoping that it would create interest. The more that sell, the more money they will have for R&D!
  
 Only one snarky comment so far.
  
 To be fair there are a lot of knowledgeable folks on CA. Just a few contentious folks that soil good threads...but that happens here too!
  
 Still worth checking in on CA now and then. That's where I found out about Mutec.


----------



## sbgk

rb2013 said:


> Anyway enopugh about the future and alternatives - anymore listening results with the F-1?
> 
> Had a long session last night - track by track, album by album just blowing me away.  On James Taylor's 1970 'Sweet Baby James' just stunned at what the F-1 has done for this 46 yr old recording!  Typically this album can sound muffled and compressed - to the point of being boring (that and having listened to it a few thousand times) - last night it was like hearing it for the first time.
> 
> ...


 
 Mine sounded a bit thin when I first got it, after 72 hours on a loop it's opening up with better depth and more analogue sound . haswell laptop->printer cable->f1->rca cable->x12->Klout->atc 20


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> I started the thread on CA hoping that it would create interest. The more that sell, the more money they will have for R&D!
> 
> Only one snarky comment so far.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes - thanks for doing that.  Prehaps I'm being a little unfair - it is hard to see how this little $180 could sound so good - so the skeptism is not surprising.
  
 I have learned some good stuff there and share it here - like Alex's Regen thread the Shaman's RUR thread.  But a bit surprised at the lack of discussion on the XU208.


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> Mine sounded a bit thin when I first got it, after 72 hours on a loop it's opening up with better depth and more analogue sound . haswell laptop->printer cable->f1->rca cable->x12->Klout->atc 20


 

 Power from the laptop?


----------



## rb2013

I can see the SU-1 getting a strong following for those not wanting to 'invest' in the power chain stuff.  Just plug, and plug and play.

 I could see how the added detail of the F-1 may not mix well with certain DAC (Sabre ESS9018?) - and who suggest the Breeze DU-U8 - as it's overall balance is more to the warm side of the spectrum.
  
 The Pro3a the brighter side for sure.
  
 The PUC2 lite and the F-1 pretty close to the middle.


----------



## rb2013

On the SPDIF receiver front - it appears that APL used this chip in my DAC, the same one that it appears Schiit uses in the Yggie and Gumby.  Have not found any specs for jitter yet but Schiit says it's very low.
  
 AKM4113
  
 http://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4113VF.pdf


----------



## wushuliu

Well I've ordered an F1. Since I only have an iDAC2, I also got a MyDAC from Amazon since it has coax. So I get to try out two new items! I haven't played with usb/spdif converters since I owned an Audio-GD NFB 2(?) years ago. That was when the Tenor stuff was the rage. The benefits of the converters back then didn't sound that large over the async usb stuff that was popping up. Then I got an ODAC and pursued other hobbies. So I'm curious how much xmos has changed the game...


----------



## ciphercomplete

rb2013 said:


> I could see how the added detail of the F-1 may not mix well with certain DAC (Sabre ESS9018?)


 
  
 I concur.  F-1 would seem to be a dream match for the Audio GD Master 7, NOS 7 or SA-2 and probably MHDT dacs.  A buddy of mine has the SA-2 I may ask him if he wants to switch dacs for a week.  I wish I still had a Master 7 so I could try it.  The F-1 is great with the Yggy and would probably take the Gungnir multi-bit to levels unheard.


----------



## ciphercomplete

rb2013 said:


> Yes - thanks for doing that.  Prehaps I'm being a little unfair - it is hard to see how this little $180 could sound so good - so the skeptism is not surprising.
> 
> I have learned some good stuff there and share it here - like Alex's Regen thread the Shaman's RUR thread.  But a bit surprised at the lack of discussion on the XU208.


 
  
 I think the confusion is that people don't see the new XMOS chip for what it is.  It is a newer faster, better capable chip and it does it job better than the slower older chips from XMOS and other manufacturers.  Sort of like upgrading from an Intel coreDuo to an i5 or i7.  I am looking forward to other manufacturers (empirical audio, ci audio, audio gd) getting their hands on the new chips and pushing them to their limits much like we have seen with the older XMOS chips.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Well I've ordered an F1. Since I only have an iDAC2, I also got a MyDAC from Amazon since it has coax. So I get to try out two new items! I haven't played with usb/spdif converters since I owned an Audio-GD NFB 2(?) years ago. That was when the Tenor stuff was the rage. The benefits of the converters back then didn't sound that large over the async usb stuff that was popping up. Then I got an ODAC and pursued other hobbies. So I'm curious how much xmos has changed the game...


 
 Nice - report back when you get it.
  


ciphercomplete said:


> I concur.  F-1 would seem to be a dream match for the Audio GD Master 7, NOS 7 or SA-2 and probably MHDT dacs.  A buddy of mine has the SA-2 I may ask him if he wants to switch dacs for a week.  I wish I still had a Master 7 so I could try it.  The F-1 is great with the Yggy and would probably take the Gungnir multi-bit to levels unheard.


 
 I totally agree - with my tubed DAC's just great.  I have to say the X-1 on my R2R modded DAC60 is pretty awesome, as well - I definitely like it better then the Breeze DU-U8 which I'm putting up for sale.  I'm using a the Regen fed by a TeraDak X1/X2 (with upgraded HW Caps) and a Cerious Graphene power cord.  Data link is a 2G split  - data leg only - JB modded into a VBUS blocker.  For $79 the X-1 is so silly good, it has to be a beginners dream.


----------



## rb2013

The latest xmos xCORE-200 includes unique hardware divider and it is used to generate bit-clock from master clock directly.


ciphercomplete said:


> I think the confusion is that people don't see the new XMOS chip for what it is.  It is a newer faster, better capable chip and it does it job better than the slower older chips from XMOS and other manufacturers.  Sort of like upgrading from an Intel coreDuo to an i5 or i7.  I am looking forward to other manufacturers (empirical audio, ci audio, audio gd) getting their hands on the new chips and pushing them to their limits much like we have seen with the older XMOS chips.


 

 Yes and that also puzzles me - no mention of this major upgrade of the umbiquitous XMOS. I understand that besides doubling of the power - there are some new features that clever designers can utilize.
 As DIYinHK mentions:
  


> The latest xmos xCORE-200 includes unique hardware divider and it is used to generate bit-clock from master clock directly.


----------



## wushuliu

rb2013 said:


> The latest xmos xCORE-200 includes unique hardware divider and it is used to generate bit-clock from master clock directly.
> 
> Yes and that also puzzles me - no mention of this major upgrade of the umbiquitous XMOS. I understand that besides doubling of the power - there are some new features that clever designers can utilize.
> As DIYinHK mentions:


 
 The technology is moving too fast and there are too many products to keep track of. The DAC market alone has exploded over the past 10 years, and every year there is a new development. I DIY a lot of my own gear and even I had no idea about XMOS (or at least what makes them better). I'm too busy chasing all the new Class D amps, or new power supply developments, or the newest woofers and tweeters, or audio playback software like sbgk's MQN. Thanks to DIY and ebay and computer processing, there are just too many audio products to learn about!


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> The technology is moving too fast and there are too many products to keep track of. The DAC market alone has exploded over the past 10 years, and every year there is a new development. I DIY a lot of my own gear and even I had no idea about XMOS (or at least what makes them better). I'm too busy chasing all the new Class D amps, or new power supply developments, or the newest woofers and tweeters, or audio playback software like sbgk's MQN. Thanks to DIY and ebay and computer processing, there are just too many audio products to learn about!


 

 Boy you got that right!  I laugh when I see people complain about the advancements in DDC's - like PC's haven;t leap frogged the last 5 yrs.  It's the nature of computer technology - the old Moore's Law.  It's a good thing!
  
 Most of my system has remained constant - Class A Mosfet Hybrid tube amps, tubed DACs - one a 6 32-bit AKM DACs per channel monster and the other a classic true R2R PCM1704UK tubed DAC - that I heavily modded.  http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 All my tubed gear run NOS vintage '70's Russian tubes.


----------



## rb2013

New PS Audio LanRover - telling you Thunderbolt would solve this.
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl9fJNyfbo


----------



## somestranger26

currawong said:


> Does your M11 have the headers inside for I2S? If so, why not install it internally? It's much easier to map pins on the internal headers than it is to screw around with external wiring.


 
  
 Thank you for the suggestion.
  
 Yes it does have internal I2S headers - one on the RJ45 input and one on the USB input. I will look into installing it internally - hopefully there is enough room and I can get some grounding standoffs to fit the screw holes. Maybe I can swap it out with the existing Amanero board.
  
 I don't think the internal header will fit the F-1 board. I will test it out, but as a backup I purchased these headers that I should be able to fit the wires into and crimp them without having to solder anything.
  
 Quote:


ciphercomplete said:


> I think the confusion is that people don't see the new XMOS chip for what it is.  It is a newer faster, better capable chip and it does it job better than the slower older chips from XMOS and other manufacturers.  Sort of like upgrading from an Intel coreDuo to an i5 or i7.  I am looking forward to other manufacturers (empirical audio, ci audio, audio gd) getting their hands on the new chips and pushing them to their limits much like we have seen with the older XMOS chips.


 
 I did not expect the new chip to be that much better, since it really shouldn't take that much processing power to do the USB-I2S conversion, especially when most music is released at 16/44.1. I thought the processing power was a solved issue, and it was up to refining the clocking to get the most out of these converters.


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> New PS Audio LanRover - telling you Thunderbolt would solve this.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl9fJNyfbo


 
 I just ordered this little guy to give a try - from wiki:
  


> As Wikipedia reports, "_network isolators are installed as part of a copper Ethernet system as galvanic_
> _isolators. Network data continues to be transmitted across an electrically non-conducting barrier _
> _through the applied principle of electromagnetic induction whereby high-frequency AC voltages _
> _conveying data are induced across an isolating gap. The network isolator is therefore a passive device _
> ...


 
 http://www.amazon.com/Ethernet-Extender-Adapter-Repeater-Booster/dp/B00CCWZIZG?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
  
USB 2.0 to UPT Cats5 Cat5e Cats6 Rj45 Lan Ethernet Extender Adapter Repeater Booster  
  
 Now I just found this little fellow on Ebay for $50
Baaske Medical Ethernet Network Isolator​ 
  
  
 http://industrialcomponent.com/baaske/mi1005.html


----------



## hugoboss

ciphercomplete said:


> I concur.  F-1 would seem to be a dream match for the Audio GD Master 7, NOS 7 or SA-2 and probably MHDT dacs.  A buddy of mine has the SA-2 I may ask him if he wants to switch dacs for a week.  I wish I still had a Master 7 so I could try it.  The F-1 is great with the Yggy and would probably take the Gungnir multi-bit to levels unheard.


 
  
 tommorow i will test f1 with my new audio gd nos 7. lets' see what improvement f1 can deliver to 8 pcm1704 monster dac


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> I just ordered this little guy to give a try - from wiki:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Ethernet-Extender-Adapter-Repeater-Booster/dp/B00CCWZIZG?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi !
 and if you have some cash left why not also this one ...
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Low-noise-USB-Isolator-short-circuit-protection-ADUM4160-Hifi-JTAG-isolation-/111942885146?hash=item1a1050df1a:g:3AUAAOSwPgxVL63g
  
 i have seen the same chip used in the Berkely Audio Usb Alpha DDC.  So it must be good ncessarily 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Of course implementation is another thing.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am using it and it seems to work ok but only for 16/48.  I do not have higher rez format files to try.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## hugoboss

fyi, that adum 4160 is already very old device.
 there is a new adum chipset that used inside aune s16. which is adum 3441 digital isolated.
 but there is only found inside aune s16.
  

  
  
 adum 3441 support high sample up to 384khz
 in my aune s16 test with f1. f1 still beat the usb inside aunes16 head to head in all aspect
  
  
ADUM3441 
  
  
 Four-channel, high-speed digital isolators
 Your current location: Home > Product Selection Table > ADUM3441
   product description
  ADuM344x is using ADI's technology _i Coupler®_ quad-channel digital isolators, supports up to 150 Mbps data rate. These isolation components high-speed CMOS air core transformer technology and single-chip, superior to alternatives such as optocoupler devices provide outstanding performance characteristics.
_i Coupler_ device without LED and photodiode, and thus there is no commonly associated with optocouplers design difficulties. Simple _i Coupler_ digital interfaces and stable performance characteristics, can eliminate the typical optocoupler uncertain current transfer ratios, nonlinear transfer functions, and temperature and lifetime effects. These _i Coupler_ product does not require external drivers and other discrete components.
 In addition, in the case of comparable signal data _rates,_ i Coupler devices the power of optocouplers 1/10 to 1/6.
 ADuM344x isolators provide four independent isolation channels in a variety of channel configurations (see "Order Guide"). ADuM344x 3.0 V to 5.5 V supply voltage, providing compatibility with lower voltage systems, and is capable of enabling voltage translation functionality across the isolation barrier. In addition, ADuM344x between having low pulse width distortion and tight channel matching characteristics. Unlike other optocoupler, ADuM344x isolators have a patented refresh feature that ensures power and on / off dc correctness in the off condition when the input logic conversion is not exist.
*application*

High-speed multichannel isolation
SPI interface / data converter isolation
Instruments


----------



## ginetto61

hugoboss said:


> fyi, that adum 4160 is already very old device.


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
 I should have said that i am not very much in high rez.  Practically my whole music collection is on cds.
 I was very trivially thinking ... if it is good for a very high end DDC is more than enough for me, as a chip.
 The Berkeley Audio DDC was a world reference DDC some years ago (2012).
  
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/437-berkeley-audio-design-alpha-usb-review/
  
  Maybe it is still very capable ?
  
 however i read here       http://files.computeraudiophile.com/2012/0303/Alpha_USB_Preliminary_Data_Sheet.pdf
  


> "  Sampling rates up to 192 kHz and word lengths up to 24 bit are supported "


 
  
 I wonder how important is the implementation.
  


> there is a new adum chipset that used inside aune s16. which is *adum 3441 *digital isolated.
> but there is only found inside aune s16.
> adum 3441 support high sample up to 384khz
> *in my aune s16 test with f1.    *
> *f1 still beat the usb inside aunes16 head to head in all aspect*


 
  
 This is very interesting and suggests that the DDC inside the s16 is inferior to the f1.  Good to know.
 I guess also that the f1 provides already some sort of isolation on board.
 So an added isolator maybe is even detrimental for sound.
 Also the isolator is just that ... an isolator.  A DDC, like the f1 for example, is still needed after it.
  
*I use it mainly because provide a very handy injection point for an external power supply  *




  
 I do not like this attitude to sell double head usb cables that cost like a very nice dac.  This is silly to me.
 Between a special usb cable and an Higgy i would pick the dac always.
 I would just need a usb to usb adapter with a dc socket on it ... just that.
 But i understand there is no interest for the product.  Fine.
 If i were the seller i would push it more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Have a nice day
 Regards,  gino


----------



## hugoboss

double head usb cable is not expensive if you diy yourself
 just using canare cable and do some soldering it's quite easy.., the expensive part is the linear power supply
  
 if you want any cheap option without diy or use any dual head usb cable try this one. iam using one of these and cheap of course
  
  
Elfidelity magic sound engineers USB- power source Ⅲ  the USB 3 the Power Supply's   (AXF-100 Ultra) *it cost $22 at taobao*
  

  

  
  
  
  

  
  
 you can choose how to power your usb card
  
 1. using power from sata cable in your psu unit inside your pc if you have good low ripple psu
 2. or using the eksternal switching adaptor for power
 3. or using more expensive 5volt linear psu
  
  
 iam using option number 3 plus ifi micro iusb 3 combo
 but using just these $22 usb alone is far better already compare to built in motherboard usb


----------



## ginetto61

hugoboss said:


> double head usb cable is not expensive if you diy yourself
> just using canare cable and do some soldering it's quite easy.., the expensive part is the linear power supply
> f you want any cheap option without diy or use any dual head usb cable try this one. iam using one of these and cheap of course
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks and very interesting but a little tricky maybe ?
 but very nice i will study the option.
 If i understand well it is a sata to usb 3.0 converter ?
 I will study it.
 As i said i was looking in the end for a solution to inject clean 5VDC.
 That board was the easiest way i found without need of DIY (i am quite a dog with the soldering iron).
 Thanks a lot again.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## hugoboss

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks and very interesting but a little tricky maybe ?
> but very nice i will study the option.
> If i understand well it is a sata to usb 3.0 converter ?
> I will study it.
> ...


 
  
 this is just a ordinary pci express usb card with audiophile component
 it is not sata to usb converter
 that sata cable is use if you want to inject the 5volt power from your pc power supply, but i advice you not use that sata power option , instead, use that eksternal adaptor power or linear power supply.
 so this is the most cheapest and simple solution, you can choose what kind of power you want to inject to that usb card. you want to use your power supply power then use sata , ekternal power adaptor then dont use that sata.
  
 this solution can give your dac a good clean power supply depend on what kind of power you use


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *hugoboss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> this is just a ordinary pci express usb card with audiophile component ....  it is not sata to usb converter
> that sata cable is use if you want to inject the 5volt power from your pc power supply, but i advice you not use that sata power option , instead, *use that eksternal adaptor power or linear power supply.*
> so this is the most cheapest and simple solution, *you can choose what kind of power you want to inject to that usb card. *
> you want to use your power supply power then use sata , ekternal power adaptor then dont use that sata


 
  
 Sorry i am a little slow at understanding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   if i insert the card in the pcie slot than the card will use the pci bus power.
 In order to isolate it from the bus power and use instead the external power supply *is there a switch on the card ?   *
 if not the card will be always polluted by the bus power noise.    Am i right ?
 i wonder if there are english pages ... this Taobao site is extremely interesting
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Anyway enopugh about the future and alternatives - anymore listening results with the F-1?
> 
> Had a long session last night - track by track, album by album just blowing me away.  On James Taylor's 1970 'Sweet Baby James' just stunned at what the F-1 has done for this 46 yr old recording!  Typically this album can sound muffled and compressed - to the point of being boring (that and having listened to it a few thousand times) - last night it was like hearing it for the first time.
> 
> ...


 
  
 About 60-70 hours playing with my F1.
 Last day´s havent really care to play at loud volumes but do it right now before wife comes home...the walls are shaking 
  
 The SQ is far beyond I would imagine my small system could deliver.
 No comparison today just enjoying the music.
 Gorgeus bass and I think the F1 is sounding a bit more detailed now compared to when it was new.
 I will play another week or so at moderate volumes before I will do a head to head comparison to an old DVD.
  
 I like what I hear and interesting to hear if it will improve more.
  
 Off topic, have a friend who say digital music is just crap so I went to his place with my laptop, a 50 dollar dac board and my Baby Breeze.
 He looked a bit funny when my cheap dac and ddc converter matched his CD player 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Both connected to his decent amp and speakers.
 That cheap ddc and Baby Breeze sounds like **** compared to my mainsystem with F1 in chain.
 Have invited him to my house to listen to my small system with F1 in chain but let´s see if he comes.
 Prettty sure he will be impressed but maybe not admit it


----------



## hugoboss

it's not using any power from pci express slot. it just used the pci slot to hold that card
 see this picture iam upload now
  


  
  
 see the black circle i draw in 2nd picture, it's not using any pin or any power at all in pci express slot, it just to hold that card nicely in your motherboard
 see the white cirlcle it act like a usb port using your existing usb header in your motherboard
 the power is from either your pc power supply or eksternal adaptor or linear psu . you choose your own option in power
  
  
 this is the link. use chrome browser and translate to english
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/40228265855.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-8332120890.8.HgrSu2


----------



## hugoboss

your link is the first or second generation of this card. mine is the newest third generation. the different is you can choose better option to power that usb card
  
 there are may option beside that usb card to clean your pc power. i think rb2013 know these things too he used some of this , maybe he will join our chat soon hahaha, here is some other device to clean power from pc power supply
  
  
 memory filter
  

  
 fan filter

  
 power supply cleaner

 hdisk / ssd sata filter

  
 all are damn cheap


----------



## ginetto61

hugoboss said:


> your link is the first or second generation of this card. mine is the newest third generation. the different is you can choose better option to power that usb card
> 
> there are may option beside that usb card to clean your pc power. i think rb2013 know these things too he used some of this , maybe he will join our chat soon hahaha, here is some other device to clean power from pc power supply
> 
> ...


 
  


> see the white cirlcle it act like a usb port using your existing usb header in your motherboard
> the power is from either your pc power supply or eksternal adaptor or linear psu .
> *you choose your own option in power  *


 
  
 Just to sum up.   In the usb header there is also the +5VDC power.
 in order to select power from the header/motherboard or from external psu there must be a switch.
 Or i have to cut the wires in the cable connecting card and motherboard ?
 Of course no problem to do this. But i have to cut something.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> fyi, that adum 4160 is already very old device.
> there is a new adum chipset that used inside aune s16. which is adum 3441 digital isolated.
> but there is only found inside aune s16.
> 
> ...


 

 "ADI - 150Mbps data rate - isolation" - is this the chip that the F-1 uses, sounds familiar. 
  
 PS Yes I like the ElFidelity SATA filters, and Fan filters - I much prefer the Paul Pang USB card - as it avoids the USB bus completely and runs on the PCIe bus.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> About 60-70 hours playing with my F1.
> Last day´s havent really care to play at loud volumes but do it right now before wife comes home...the walls are shaking
> 
> The SQ is far beyond I would imagine my small system could deliver.
> ...


 

 Nice!  So you'r saying the F-1 is better then the Baby Breeze in your main system...


----------



## hugoboss

ginetto61 said:


> Just to sum up.   In the usb header there is also the +5VDC power.
> in order to select power from the header/motherboard or from external psu there must be a switch.
> Or i have to cut the wires in the cable connecting card and motherboard ?
> Of course no problem to do this. But i have to cut something.
> Thanks again,  gino


 

 there is no switch just a different led color in that usb card. like its red if you connect it with sata cable or yellow if you connect it with eksternal adaptor
 no switch at all.
  
 last option is make dual head usb cable so there is 100percent no power from pc power, this is the path i go with my setup. so the data only head connect in that usb card . then the other head go to linear psu


----------



## rb2013

I don't think anyone listened to that Paul McGowan from PS Audio - Youtube clip.  WATCH STARTING AT Min 4!!  At Min 5 "he says - knocked the Regen's socks off!"  That is an amazing statement!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl9fJNyfbo  
  
 He mentioned using a USB to 1GB Ethernet - then Ethernet back to USB extender improved the sound of his system dramatically. The Ethernet in the USB chain gives you Galvanic isolation!  It also extends the range of your USB to hundreds of feet.  He was so impressed he is coming out with a new device called the LanRover - he says it's better then the Regen.  I found this nifty unit on amazon for $80 and then to take the galvanic isolation one step further - i will add the 'medical grade' ethernet isolator in the ethernet chain.  Got lucky there and found on Ebay for $50.
  
 I think this is superior to the Intona and way cheaper.  No reclocking!  The USB data stream is transmitted by CAT6 cable galvanically isolated, then converted back to USB the USB playback chain would then restart there.
  
 We shall see if this does not improve the USB sound further...
  
  
  
  
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> I just ordered this little guy to give a try - from wiki:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Ethernet-Extender-Adapter-Repeater-Booster/dp/B00CCWZIZG?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !
> and if you have some cash left why not also this one ...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Low-noise-USB-Isolator-short-circuit-protection-ADUM4160-Hifi-JTAG-isolation-/111942885146?hash=item1a1050df1a:g:3AUAAOSwPgxVL63g
> ...


 

 NO those isolators are not galvanic and can add jitter - this is an entirely new method 'discovered' by Audio design genius Paul McGowan at PS Audio.


----------



## hugoboss

rb2013 said:


>


 

 ps audio device just $80 damn cheap
 should try it.


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> ps audio device just $80 damn cheap
> should try it.


 

 Oh no the PS Audio device will not be out for several months - and will likely be very expensive.  But the concept can be implemented much cheaper - with a basic 1GB Ethernet USB Extender and the use of a medical grade Ethernet galvanic isolator.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  So you'r saying the F-1 is better then the Baby Breeze in your main system...


 
 Not really saying that...yet.
 I compared the Baby Breeze and cheap dac to my F1 with Hegel Dac.
 Easy win to my F1 Hegel of course.
  
 The fun thing is that the cheap dac and Baby Breeze played even at my friend doing A/B comparison with his good CD player.
 Fun becuse he alway´s said computer based music sux.
  
 I did a quick comparison of the F1 and Baby Breeze when the F1 was new.
 Both connected to my Hegel AMP through coax.
 Pretty close but in favour of F1.
 That was when the F1 was brand new.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Not really saying that...yet.
> I compared the Baby Breeze and cheap dac to my F1 with Hegel Dac.
> Easy win to my F1 Hegel of course.
> 
> ...


 

 I see - what about your DVD player?  Have you done that face-off yet?


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> I see - what about your DVD player?  Have you done that face-off yet?


 
  
 I will do that when the F1 have about 150 hours burn in.
 About half way there now.


----------



## murphythecat

what is the baby breeze?


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> what is the baby breeze?


 
 The Breeze DU-U8 without the AC PS.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-U8-Async-USB-to-coaxial-optical-digital-interface-I2S-PCM-DSD-0-1PPM-TCXO-/111654329387?has


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> I will do that when the F1 have about 150 hours burn in.
> About half way there now.


 

 Cool!


----------



## rb2013

I don't think anyone listened to that Paul McGowan from PS Audio - Youtube clip.  It was only posted yesterday.
  
 WATCH STARTING AT Min 4!!  At Min 5 "he says - knocked the Regen's socks off!"  That is an amazing statement!  At min 6 he explains why he thinks this works so well for USB audio.   At min 7 he says it doesn't matter what USB cable you use to feed it!  They all sound the same - this from a guy who sells High End USB cables!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl9fJNyfbo


----------



## ciphercomplete

I was batting around the idea of using usb over ethernet a while ago.  I'm going to try it out now.  The clincher for me, which is something I should have recognized a while back, is that this will allow me to move my media server to another room in my basement completely away from my audio system.  I wired my house (well the upstairs office and the basement) with cat6 so it would be easy enough.   If theres no difference then there is always ebay.  If it does work then I will have a ton of stuff for sale (HD plex linear PS, HD plex 250 watt DC, Uptone Regen, Schiit wyrd etc) stuff you only need because you are trying to shield your dac from "bad computer stuff".
  
 Maybe we could break this discussion off into a new thread.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> I was batting around the idea of using usb over ethernet a while ago.  I'm going to try it out now.  The clincher for me, which is something I should have recognized a while back, is that this will allow me to move my media server to another room in my basement completely away from my audio system.  I wired my house (well the upstairs office and the basement) with cat6 so it would be easy enough.   If theres no difference then there is always ebay.  If it does work then I will have a ton of stuff for sale (HD plex linear PS, HD plex 250 watt DC, Uptone Regen, Schiit wyrd etc) stuff you only need because you are trying to shield your dac from "bad computer stuff".
> 
> Maybe we could break this discussion off into a new thread.


 

 Yes - that's my thinking!  Get rid of the PPA V2 and the JB at least.  Well let me give it a listen - then start the thread if there is any fruit there.  Like you say - even a tie would be a logistical win. They should be here in a week.  You see the results here first.
  
 Hoping to not need the new uber Regen at a min  - with it's galvanic isolation - or the $300 Intona.


----------



## ccschua

Isnt that ethernet with collision detection will defeat the purpose of "asyhncronous" ?
  
 I believe every item should do the trick, removing the PPA V2 will result in different sound. whether good of bad will need to find out. for me I still stick with the PPA V3.


----------



## mhamel

Thunderbolt is great, but unfortunately I think it needs much wider general adoption before most companies will invest the time and money into consumer audio devices based on it. The pro audio world is another story - there are a bunch of Thunderbolt interfaces out there, but most are very expensive and I haven't seen many that will output AES.
  
 Another option if you have a source computer with PCI or PCIe slots would be a pro audio sound card with native AES output. Something along the lines of http://www.digigram.com/products/product_infos.php?prod_key=14950. Likewise, not cheap, but eliminates any interim conversion steps, and probably a toss-up cost-wise when you factor in all of the tweaking, add-ons, etc. that come along with trying to get the best out of a USB connection.
  
 Yet another option - if you have a source with a Thunderbolt port but no PCIe slot internally, you can also go this route: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1133177-REG/sonnet_echo_exp_se1_echo_se1_sng_slt_tb2_to_pcie.html  along with a card like the one mentioned above.
  
 --
  
 The PS Audio device is different from the inexpensive Cat5 USB extenders in that it's actually working over Gigabit Ethernet, so it will run through routers/switches and co-exist with regular network traffic, where the inexpensive extenders are just extending using Cat5/Cat6 cable, but not using ethernet topology to do so. Looking at the device he's holding in the video, it appears to be a version of this device: http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/ with a slightly different faceplate. He didn't show the second device so there's no indication if they're using a single port version or the four port. It is currently available as either a Startech or ATEN branded product, and possibly others.   Here's a link to the ATEN-branded version: http://eshop.aten-usa.com/products/ueh4002-4-port-cat-5-usb-2-0-extender-1?variant=16855544389


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> I don't think anyone listened to that Paul McGowan from PS Audio - Youtube clip.  It was only posted yesterday.
> WATCH STARTING AT Min 4!!  At Min 5 "he says -* knocked the Regen's socks off!" * That is an amazing statement!
> At min 6 he explains why he thinks this works so well for USB audio.   At min 7 he says *it doesn't matter what USB cable you use to feed it!  *
> They all sound the same - this from a guy who sells High End USB cables!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl9fJNyfbo


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the link.   
 Yes i have been struck by the same words and also something like the best sound they have experienced using usb connection 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 They say June as possible date for availability.  I wonder about the price.  But i tend to trust the Man.  Great products from Ps Audio always.
 Regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> Isnt that ethernet with collision detection will defeat the purpose of "asyhncronous" ?
> 
> I believe every item should do the trick, removing the PPA V2 will result in different sound. whether good of bad will need to find out. for me I still stick with the PPA V3.


 

 Well good point there - it looks like the USB to Ethernet converters just 'move' the data for a Async USB packet to a TCP/IP packet protocol that then just gets reconverted.   With galvanic isolation in between.
  
 The collision problem is now solved by the new TCP/IP std.  Anyway this is a single purpose ethernet conncection - so maybe the 'collision detection' is disabled.
  
 See the warning on the back of this Ethernet USB extender box - 

  
 More info on Ethernet links
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/sotm2/1.html
  
 I guess when it get here: 1) it will either - work or not. 2) sound better - not.
  
 Worse case I sell the $160 isolator that I paid $50 for the same and sell the USB extender for $50.  So I'm out $30.
  
 I have these two cables coming one a CAT7 and one a CAT6
 One was $3 and the other $9


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Thunderbolt is great, but unfortunately I think it needs much wider general adoption before most companies will invest the time and money into consumer audio devices based on it. The pro audio world is another story - there are a bunch of Thunderbolt interfaces out there, but most are very expensive and I haven't seen many that will output AES.
> 
> Another option if you have a source computer with PCI or PCIe slots would be a pro audio sound card with native AES output. Something along the lines of http://www.digigram.com/products/product_infos.php?prod_key=14950. Likewise, not cheap, but eliminates any interim conversion steps, and probably a toss-up cost-wise when you factor in all of the tweaking, add-ons, etc. that come along with trying to get the best out of a USB connection.
> 
> ...


 

 Well my hope is that TB3 and the new Intel and MS support - along with a USB-C connector will push this into the forfront.  Already seeing WIN MBs with TB3 - as this will also mostly be used for large RAID or ext HD's.
 The Focusrite Clarett Pre4 for $600 has SPDIF output but not AES - and a whole bunch of other stuff we don't need.  So a simpler (Chinese made) TB3 DDC with totl clocks could be just as inexpensive as the F-1.
  
 http://www.audiomediainternational.com/recording/feature-investigating-interface-protocols/04655


> “The main advantages of Ethernet-based formats are the ability to run much longer distances between devices; being able to take audio signals from one source and route to many destinations; and sample accurate clocking from one master device on the network. Thunderbolt 2 and USB 3 offer the ability to connect to Ethernet, so would also be compatible with networked audio devices. With the introduction of AES67, all of these audio-over-IP formats will talk to each other, so enabling one harmonious compatible format.”​


 
  
 For me a dedicated single connection 1GB Ethernet USB extender would work fine - I don't need to run it on a busy work or home LAN.  He misquoted that CAT5/6 is automatically galvanically isolated - it's not - but a reasonable priced GI can be inserted into the line.  And these are 'medical grade' meaning - well tested to avoid killing someone and a huge lawsuit.
  
 What I like about the one I posted is a 5VDC powerport  - so an iPower could do the job - or a LPS if needed.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> ccschua said:
> 
> 
> > Isnt that ethernet with collision detection will defeat the purpose of "asyhncronous" ?
> ...


 
  
 I see UTP and STP. Could be UTP sounds better than STP because of it's missing shield, but also could go among the other side, again, tricky, to shield or not to shield.... that sounds familiar


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I see UTP and STP. Could be UTP sounds better than STP because of it's missing shield, but also could go among the other side, again, tricky, to shield or not to shield.... that sounds familiar


 

 I thought to get one of each and try them both - cheap enough.
  
 PS I should have said new audio-over-IP std - AES67 - not TCP/IP std.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > I see UTP and STP. Could be UTP sounds better than STP because of it's missing shield, but also could go among the other side, again, tricky, to shield or not to shield.... that sounds familiar
> ...


 
  
 Try to avoid flat UTP cables since they are not twisted, which is needed (twisted +/- pairs) for best signal integrity.


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> I just ordered this little guy to give a try - from wiki:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Ethernet-Extender-Adapter-Repeater-Booster/dp/B00CCWZIZG?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi rb2013, I think I'll follow you on this one project!
  
 I was just looking for a USB 2.0 galvanic isolation devices, and this USB to Ethernet to USB it's a wonderful discovery!
  
 Looking around in EU website, I found USB galvanic isolation devices only up to 12MBit/s... that's a little short for USB 2.0 audio.
  
 So this USB to Ethernet to USB would be perfect!!
  
 I'll order myself a Baaske Medical Ethernet Network Isolator, now I only need to find a USB to Ethernet range extender...


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Try to avoid flat UTP cables since they are not twisted, which is needed (twisted +/- pairs) for best signal integrity.


 

 Thanks!  I'll order up a CAT6 twisted.  I only need a short distance so they are very cheap


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Hi rb2013, I think I'll follow you on this one project!
> 
> I was just looking for a USB 2.0 galvanic isolation devices, and this USB to Ethernet to USB it's a wonderful discovery!
> 
> ...


 

 Well of course there is the Intona - hotly debated I might add.  But the feedback has been unverisaly positive in terms of SQ.  Now it has some drawbacks in my view - like the el-cheapo SiTime clocks for reclocking - and high cost (like $300).  Also no ext power port (that can be solved by a USB power breakout cable).  But can see the advantages of this route - at least in theory - keep away from the difficult task of galvanic isolating a USB stream - and having to use dirty circuits to do that.  Just 'move' the USB stream closer to the DDC with galvanic isloation in between!  Maybe avoid the need of a 1M or .8M high end USB cable?  Just a hard adpater or a Curious 200mm USB link type cable.
  
 IF this works and that's a BIG if - it could save alot of money on gear.
  
 http://intona.eu/en/products


----------



## ciphercomplete

I just remembered why i didnt try this out last year. $500 for an extender lol. I may still try it if i can find one used. I already have a LAN isolator.

Do we reslly need gigabit? I have a straight shot of cat6 from my switch to my mediaserver, there is no other traffic there.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Well my hope is that TB3 and the new Intel and MS support - along with a USB-C connector will push this into the forfront.  Already seeing WIN MBs with TB3 - as this will also mostly be used for large RAID or ext HD's.
> The Focusrite Clarett Pre4 for $600 has SPDIF output but not AES - and a whole bunch of other stuff we don't need.  So a simpler (Chinese made) TB3 DDC with totl clocks could be just as inexpensive as the F-1.
> 
> http://www.audiomediainternational.com/recording/feature-investigating-interface-protocols/04655
> ...


 
  
  
 He is correct in that actual "ethernet" connections are transformer coupled, which is part of the Ethernet spec. For an extender that just extends over Cat5/6 cable, it doesn't need to follow that and can transmit/receive over the cable in whatever format the designer of the device chooses. 
  
 The device you ordered is not a 1GB Ethernet connection. It is USB over Cat5/6 cable, which is not the same. (Cat5/6/7 just refers to the specification standard that the cable is designed to meet.) It still may achieve the same goal, but technically it is a different device. Definitely worth a shot - it may even work better with less latency than going over an Ethernet network.
  
 Along those lines, with standard Ethernet over Cat5/6 UTP cable, there is no shield to isolate. The data lines are isolated by the transformers at each end of the connection that are built into the NIC and/or switch. When using STP, afaik there is no isolation for the shield. That medical isolation device will isolate both, which may or may not be a factor. As it is designed for an Ethernet network, using the cable pairs that are standard for Ethernet connections, it may not work with an extender that simply uses the cable as a signal carrier. 
  
 Either way, it will be interesting to see how it works out. 
  
    -Mike


----------



## Albrecht

Hi RB,
  
 I asked on EBAY, nothing in the Literature says that Longens are gigabit. I guess it might not matter. Right now, - I'm running two TPLink fiber FMCs with a 10GB cable & a couple of Rosewill Cat7s. This should provide isolation, - but at $33 for a pair of these guys: they are worth trying with another run of CAT6 that I already have installed.
  
 One of the great things for those people who have USB DACs, (they may be forgetting that with these, - they can pull their noisy computer from the audio rack.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> He is correct in that actual "ethernet" connections are transformer coupled, which is part of the Ethernet spec. For an extender that just extends over Cat5/6 cable, it doesn't need to follow that and can transmit/receive over the cable in whatever format the designer of the device chooses.
> 
> The device you ordered is not a 1GB Ethernet connection. It is USB over Cat5/6 cable, which is not the same. (Cat5/6/7 just refers to the specification standard that the cable is designed to meet.) It still may achieve the same goal, but technically it is a different device.
> 
> ...


 

 Well all I realy care about is that is does full speed 480Mbps USB - and no drivers.   But maybe it's not compatible with USB 2.0 Audio?  Then I'll have to wait for the PS Audio Product to arrive.

USB 2.0 at full speed 480Mbps and dowardly compatible with USB1.1.
  
 Thanks for the explaination on the ethernet galvanic isolation!  So the medical grade isolator is not needed?  Will give it a try with and without  - that would a money saver!
  
 What's cool  - many ways to skin this galvanic isolation thing


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi RB,
> 
> I asked on EBAY, nothing in the Literature says that Longens are gigabit. I guess it might not matter. Right now, - I'm running two TPLink fiber FMCs with a 10GB cable & a couple of Rosewill Cat7s. This should provide isolation, - but at $33 for a pair of these guys: they are worth trying with another run of CAT6 that I already have installed.
> 
> One of the great things for those people who have USB DACs, (they may be forgetting that with these, - they can pull their noisy computer from the audio rack.


 

 $33!  Do you have a link?  I'll cancel my Amazon order and get it on Ebay


----------



## rb2013

It looks like Startec has a true 1GB LAN USB extender - it is expensive!  Bet the PS Audio will be even more.
  


> Unlike 10/100Mbps USB extenders, this versatile USB extender leverages the full data transfer potential of your USB 2.0 peripherals up to 480Mbps, to deliver lag-free performance that enables support for extending isochronous devices such as webcams or microphones.​


 
  
 https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/USB-2/USB-Extenders/USB-over-Gigabit-Ethernet-Extender~USB2G4LEXT2
  
4 Port USB 2.0 over Gigabit LAN or Direct Cat5e / Cat6 Ethernet Extender System - up to 330 ft (100m)   | Contact support
Write a review

Product ID: USB2G4LEXT2



Extend USB 2.0 devices up to 330ft (100m) over a Gigabit Ethernet LAN, or dedicated Cat5e/6 cabling



​ 


Gallery (4)


 Dual mode operation, lets you connect through a LAN or directly through Cat5e (or better) cabling
 Supports Gigabit connection speeds
 Rugged, metal enclosure with surface-mounting bracket kit included
 More Features . . .


 Prices may be lower from Resellers:
View all Resellers View all Distributors


 

 

 

 

 

 

 



 

 

 

 Government/Education 


Find a Reseller near you





 *$599.99* USD

 In stock: _?_
USA: 25  |  Canada: 9


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> It looks like Startec has a true 1GB LAN USB extender - it is expensive!  Bet the PS Audio will be even more.
> 
> 
> https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/USB-2/USB-Extenders/USB-over-Gigabit-Ethernet-Extender~USB2G4LEXT2
> ...


 
  
 That's what I mentioned a few posts back. It's a re-branded version of the same device PS Audio is using. ATEN also sells one, for $445.
  
 Bottom part of this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/690#post_12535601
  
 In the PS Audio video, he talks about it being a device that they are sourcing from an outside supplier, as it was beyond the capabilities of their internal design engineer.


----------



## rb2013

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111486623279  $39


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111486623279  $39


 
  
  
 Not ethernet - they're using that incorrectly in the description.  Also it's only USB 1.1 compatible.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> That's what I mentioned a few posts back. It's a re-branded version of the same device PS Audio is using. ATEN also sells one, for $445.
> 
> Bottom part of this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/690#post_12535601
> 
> In the PS Audio video, he talks about it being a device that they are sourcing from an outside supplier, as it was beyond the capabilities of their internal design engineer.


 

 Yes!  You got Mike - awesome.  Amazon has them for $479
  too.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1461691077&sr=8-1&keywords=4+Port+USB+2.0+over+Gigabit+LAN+or+Direct+Cat5e+%2F+Cat6+Ethernet+Extender+System


----------



## Albrecht

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-UTP-Extender-Over-Single-RJ45-Ethernet-CAT5-5E-6-Cable-Up-to-100M-w-Power/111470172400?_trksid=p5411.c100167.m2940&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140131123730%26meid%3Da9febba310dd42a798c9ca443752b3da%26pid%3D100167%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D14%26sd%3D120961459848
  
  
 Hi,
  
 Here's what i found
  
 Thanks,


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Not ethernet - they're using that incorrectly in the description.  Also it's only USB 1.1 compatible.


 

 Looks like the same unit as on Amazon - could they be lying?
  
 USB 2.0 to UPT Cats5 Cat5e Cats6 Rj45 Lan Ethernet Extender Adapter Repeater Booster Set up to 490 Ft/150 M with Power with Free Cable Tie 


 by Langheng

 Be the first to review this item

  Available from these sellers.


 
Extender USB port of computer up to 490ft/150m over a single CAT5 CAT5E CAT6 cable.
Plug and plug; Driver free; with a DC 5V 3A power adapter on the receiver..
USB 2.0 at full speed 480Mbps and dowardly compatible with USB1.1.
Works with Windows 98SE/ME/2000/XP/Vista/7, NT, Linux, Mac, etc..
With a Free Smartdealspro Cable Tie.


----------



## rb2013

Ok I bought this one too on amazon - so I can return it free.   I am very curious now!
  
 StarTech.com 4-Port 330-Feet (100m) USB 2.0 Over Gigabit LAN or Direct Cat5e/Cat6 Ethernet Extender System (USB2G4LEXT2) 


 by StarTech

 _4.6 out of 5 stars_  13 customer reviews

  
List Price:$599.99Price:$479.99 _Free Shipping for Prime Members_


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Looks like the same unit as on Amazon - could they be lying?
> 
> USB 2.0 to UPT Cats5 Cat5e Cats6 Rj45 Lan Ethernet Extender Adapter Repeater Booster Set up to 490 Ft/150 M with Power with Free Cable Tie
> 
> ...


 
  
 The one on Amazon is single port, no?  It's probably that with one port they can get USB2.0 over the Cat5 cable, but with 4 ports they can only guarantee 1.1 speeds.
  
 As for them calling it Ethernet - that's just an incorrect statement, which they should not be using - as someone could plug one of these devices into a router/switch and potentially damage both if they're transmitting power.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-UTP-Extender-Over-Single-RJ45-Ethernet-CAT5-5E-6-Cable-Up-to-100M-w-Power/111470172400?_trksid=p5411.c100167.m2940&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140131123730%26meid%3Da9febba310dd42a798c9ca443752b3da%26pid%3D100167%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D14%26sd%3D120961459848
> 
> 
> Hi,
> ...


 

 That looks like the exact one he has listed on Amazon with USb 2.0 specs!
  
 But here it says:
 Support USB 1.1 and compatible.


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> Ok I bought this one too on amazon - so I can return it free.   I am very curious now!


 
  
 whoa!!! I'll wait then to hear your impression: USB 2.0 over gigabit Ethernet VS USB 2.0 over Ethernet extender.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> The one on Amazon is single port, no?  It's probably that with one port they can get USB2.0 over the Cat5 cable, but with 4 ports they can only guarantee 1.1 speeds.
> 
> As for them calling it Ethernet - that's just an incorrect statement, which they should not be using - as someone could plug one of these devices into a router/switch and potentially damage both if they're transmitting power.


 

 No both have one USB port!  he has the same exact pictures in each ad.
  
 But there is this one - for $200 - says USB2.0.  But then why not just get the real 1GB deal?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/231914573772?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## wakka992

What about this one? It says is for "isochronous devices (e.g. webcams and audio devices) "
  
 http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> What about this one? It says is for "isochronous devices (e.g. webcams and audio devices) "
> 
> http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/


 

 How much?


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 Not to try and dissuade anyone from trying this. But I would want to compare the USB to 1GB Ethernet solution to a dual FMC fiber connection. $140 for 2 TPLink FMCs, a fiber cable, and two short CAT6 cables is a lot less than $500.
  
 Of course, - connecting up one's USB to SPDIF converter, - or USB DAC, - is "priceless" as it eliminates a NAA.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not to try and dissuade anyone from trying this. But I would want to compare the USB to 1GB Ethernet solution to a dual FMC fiber connection. $140 for 2 TPLink FMCs, a fiber cable, and two short CAT6 cables is a lot less than $500.
> 
> Of course, - connecting up one's USB to SPDIF converter, - or USB DAC, - is "priceless" as it eliminates a NAA.


 

 Yeah that's the point - until the Thunderherd arrives!@


----------



## mhamel

wakka992 said:


> What about this one? It says is for "isochronous devices (e.g. webcams and audio devices) "
> 
> http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/


 
  
 Same device as the Startech and PS Audio.  Icron is the OEM that manufactures it.... that was also in my previous post.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Same device as the Startech and PS Audio.  Icron is the OEM that manufactures it.... that was also in my previous post.


 

 Mike are they the same cost?  Don't see the 2 port on Amazon that does 1GB


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 $369
  
 But they don't say that it's definitely Gigabit, - or that you can connect it to your LAN.
  
http://www.bb-elec.com/Products/USB-Connectivity/USB-Extenders/Icron-USB-Extenders.aspx


----------



## wakka992

wakka992 said:


> What about this one? It says is for "isochronous devices (e.g. webcams and audio devices) "
> 
> http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/


 
 mmm.... just noticed that they are the same device externally.... maybe the StarTech.com one are made by icron
  
 edit-
 thank you @mhamel, didn't noticed the part where you said icron was the OEM


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Mike are they the same cost?  Don't see the 2 port on Amazon that does 1GB


 
  
  
 I saw the Icron unit for $427 but it was 7-10 days to ship and I don't know about their return policy. The extra $50 to buy the Startech version on Amazon might be worth it just for Amazon's no-hassle returns and immediate availability.


----------



## rb2013

Startec also has 1,2, and 4 port non-1GB extenders - so be careful if you go to order one.
  
 This 2 port is $332!
  
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00


----------



## mhamel

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> $369
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 There are different models that are all using the same enclosure.  Only the one that specifies Gigabit LAN works over LAN connections.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> There are different models that are all using the same enclosure.  Only the one that specifies Gigabit LAN works over LAN connections.


 

 Yes - see my last post.  But I'm thinking if the $470 1GB can replace a Regen/Recovery, 2G cable, Intona, PPA V2 card - it might just be cheaper.


----------



## Albrecht

My apologies....
  
 I didn't look closely enough. (I wasted a couple of posts there).
  
 ""Extends USB through 1000Mbps LANs""
  
 This is HUGE as one can connect to a computer in the basement, - run it over a LAN to a switch, - then directly into one's USB DAC.
  
 This could potentially destroy the NAA market....


----------



## wakka992

guys only the 4 port Startech.Com is the gigabit one? what about 1 and 2 port one?


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> guys only the 4 port Startech.Com is the gigabit one? what about 1 and 2 port one?


 

 No just a USB extenders - not compatible with LAN switches, etc...


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> I saw the Icron unit for $427 but it was 7-10 days to ship and I don't know about their return policy. The extra $50 to buy the Startech version on Amazon might be worth it just for Amazon's no-hassle returns and immediate availability.


 

 Completely agree!  Well if it's as good sounding as PMcG says - this could be a game changer.
  
 If not - it will be politely boxed and sent back to amazon for a refund and I can ignore the likely $1000 PS Audio one.
  
 Wondering if he's going to sign a 'exclusive' deal with the OEM vendor and then own this market - PMcG's a very smart businessman!
  
 BTW not long ago we had 45 people viewing this thread - that's an all time high for me - even during some nasty flame wars!


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> No just a USB extenders - not compatible with LAN switches, etc...


 
 Sorry but I miss what I'd need the compatibility with LAN switches for...


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Sorry but I miss what I'd need the compatibility with LAN switches for...


 

 This one (must say 1GB LAN in the description):
  
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
  
StarTech.com 4-Port 330-Feet (100m) USB 2.0 Over Gigabit LAN or Direct Cat5e/Cat6 Ethernet Extender System (USB2G4LEXT2)  

*Flexible USB extension with functionality over a LAN*, or with standalone Cat5 cabling
*Achieve greater speed and reliability with support for full 480 Mbps USB 2.0 bandwidth*
*Dual mode operation, lets you connect through a LAN or directly through Cat5e (or better) cabling*
*Supports Gigabit connection speeds*
Rugged, metal enclosure with surface-mounting bracket kit included
Extend up to 100m (330ft) over Cat 5e (or better) cabling
*Allows for increased maximum distance by linking the extender across multiple LAN switches*
Plug-and-play installation with no software or drivers required


----------



## abartels

USB 2.0 100mbit available for $45
 USB 2.0 Gigabit available for $65
  
 Both working when connected to LAN (switch/router)
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/797881/ddc-digital-usb-interfaces-xmos-or-amanero-combo384-based-raspberry-pi-hifiberry-dac-pro-reviews-comparison-modifications-and-usb-audio-in-general/390#post_12535987


----------



## ciphercomplete

wakka992 said:


> Sorry but I miss what I'd need the compatibility with LAN switches for...




If you dont plan on having a switch or a router on between the two extenders then probably not.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> USB 2.o available for $45 See:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/797881/ddc-digital-usb-interfaces-xmos-or-amanero-combo384-based-raspberry-pi-hifiberry-dac-pro-reviews-comparison-modifications-and-usb-audio-in-general/390#post_12535987


 
 Thanks for the link - it's one to explore for a non-LAN solution.
  
 At least it says USB2.0 - but who knows - worth $45 to try.
https://world.taobao.com/item/525189697854.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.NCJQWu#detail
  
 PS looking at this it's not the same thing - it's just an ethernet to usb hub.
 Apples and Oranges.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > USB 2.o available for $45 See:
> ...


 
 it's a L A N  solution


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> it's a L A N  solution


 

 But not a USB to Ethernet to USB solution


----------



## mhamel

abartels said:


> it's a L A N  solution


 
  
 If you try one of these, get the G version, not the H version. They claim USB 2.0 on the H version, but it's only 10/100, not GigE - there's no way they're getting full USB 2.0 speed (480mb/sec) over a 100mb pipe.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> If you dont plan on having a switch or a router on between the two extenders then probably not.


 

 There is this one for $200 - it's not LAN compatible but USB extender:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/231914573772?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  


> Supports USB 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0 standards with data transfer rates up to 480 Mbps


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > it's a L A N  solution
> ...


 
  
 What are you talking about, it's a USB RANGE EXTENDER, what do you think it does?
  
 Ok, if you want to pay $200 instead of $65 for exactly the same device, in a metal box, be my guest.
  
 http://www.rextron.com/index.php?action=product_detail&p=4&sid=0&id=526


----------



## abartels

mhamel said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > it's a L A N  solution
> ...


 
 see the links, gigbat usb2.0 version for $65


----------



## rb2013

The PS Audio Youtube video on USB ethernet LAN has been taken down!
  
 Holy Cow!  Did we start something or what!


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> What are you talking about, it's a USB RANGE EXTENDER, what do you think it does?
> 
> Ok, if you want to pay $200 instead of $65 for exactly the same device, in a metal box, be my guest.
> 
> http://www.rextron.com/index.php?action=product_detail&p=4&sid=0&id=526


 

 I see an ethernet cable to the laptop then to the hub to usb.  Not the same thing as USB to Ethernet to USB.  Not saying a computer expert could not make it work.  Last time I checked did not see any Foobar ASIO ethernet drivers - but if you have one let me know.
  
 Yeah, I know your $22 Raspberry Pi eliminates the need for any drivers or computer - great


----------



## hugoboss

rb2013 said:


> The PS Audio Youtube video on USB ethernet LAN has been taken down!
> 
> Holy Cow!  Did we start something or what!


 

 the secret is revealed !
 cant wait to hear your impression after that thing arrived in your place


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> the secret is revealed !
> cant wait to hear your impression after that thing arrived in your place


 

 This is amazing!  I mean the video looked like it was PS Audio done - maybe someone posted it up way prematurely.  They goofed!  Didn't think we'd catch on, and figure it out in less then 12 hours.
  
 This thread is cutting edge baby -stay tuned!!


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> The PS Audio Youtube video on USB ethernet LAN has been taken down!
> 
> Holy Cow!  Did we start something or what!


 
 Tried to watch that an hour ago, already gone then.


----------



## abartels

stubborn again, but who cares, here you go:
  
 http://www.rextron.com/index.php?action=product_detail&p=6&sid=0&id=47
  
 saved you $50


----------



## hugoboss

do you think this rextron will benefit from 5volt linear psu and dual head usb cable, or just straight from any usb port and using the bundled switching adaptor is enough


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> stubborn again, but who cares, here you go:
> 
> http://www.rextron.com/index.php?action=product_detail&p=6&sid=0&id=47
> 
> saved you $50


 

 OK now that's different  - then the Taobao link you provided:
  
 This:

  


  Not this:

  

  
 Now where can you buy this don't see it on Ebay


----------



## abartels

hugoboss said:


> do you think this rextron will benefit from 5volt linear psu and dual head usb cable, or just straight from any usb port and using the bundled switching adaptor is enough


 
  
 I realy don't have any clue, normally psu is very important, but for this device, I'm not sure.
 I would say: Trial and error, first start with what's in the set, and try comparing later with a better psu


----------



## wakka992

I'm lost...
  
 Why should I need a Gigabit one instead of the Usb to ethernet one? My goal is galvanically isolated USB signal, PC to DAC, no router in the middle. won't a usb 2.0 to ethernet extender do the trick?


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > stubborn again, but who cares, here you go:
> ...


 
  
 It was a little strange description from Rextron, a range extender has a specific functionality, and those weren't range extenders. You were right Bob.


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> I'm lost...
> 
> Why should I need a Gigabit one instead of the Usb to ethernet one? My goal is galvanically isolated USB signal, PC to DAC, no router in the middle. won't a usb 2.0 to ethernet extender do the trick?


 

 Yes if it can do USB 2.0 Audio Async  and you don't plan on using it on a LAN


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> It was a little strange description from Rextron, a range extender has a specific functionality, and those weren't range extenders. You were right Bob.


 

 The Rextron looks perfect - but where to buy it Taobao - I will try and do a search there


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> Yes if it can do USB 2.0 Audio Async  and you don't plan on using it on a LAN


 
  
 ok, so I need to find a USB 2.0 to Ethernet that support Isochronous at up to 480Mbps. Is  Isochronous the same as Async??


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> ok, so I need to find a USB 2.0 to Ethernet that support Isochronous at up to 480Mbps. Is  Isochronous the same as Async??


 

 Well Isochronous is not needed - just Async - now the the device that PS Audio was refering to obviously does high speed Async as they speak of the remarkable sound difference in the Video - so they have already tried it.
  
  
Question about USB modes--isochronous vs asynchronous http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?t=819870


> > Originally posted by stevestrike:
> > I knew that the max speed of USB is 12MBps. However, I just read that USB operates in one of two modes and not both simultaneously. Only in isochronous mode data transfers at a fixed, guarenteed level of 12Mbps for items like speakers, modems, and monitors.
> >
> > In asynchronous mode, data transfers occur at 1.5Mbps. Devices like keyboards and mice use this mode.
> ...


 
  
  
 Any device that supports High Speed USB 2.0 should work - I would like to try one of each.  I will get a RextronUSBX-M200 if I can find one at a reasonable price  So far Amazon, Ebay and Taobao are a no go. They have a video ethernet extender by them on amazon - but not the USB extender.


----------



## wakka992

thanks for the reply. you really are a well of knowledge for computer audio!!
  
 I've found a couple of USB to Ethernet that would do the trick, some of the lindy I'll post are USb Isochronous:
  
 Lindy 42693 
  
 Lindy 42694
  
 Lindy 42700 (expensive)
  
 http://www.amazon.it/RJ45-cavo-Cat5e-estensione-adattatore/dp/B00K6FBE4U?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_4&smid=A11IL2PNWYJU7H
  
 http://www.amazon.it/LogiLink-USB-Extender-Set-geeignet-schwarz/dp/B00JG59UAG?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_3&smid=A11IL2PNWYJU7H
  
 You confirm than that I don't need the "Medical Grade Ethernet Filter" you posted a couple of pages back??


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> thanks for the reply. you really are a well of knowledge for computer audio!!
> 
> I've found a couple of USB to Ethernet that would do the trick, some of the lindy I'll post are USb Isochronous:
> 
> ...


 

 Well I will try with and without - since I got it at such a great price - so hold off to see.
  
Here is the Taobao link for the Rextron - will order one through FreeshoppingChina:
 https://world.taobao.com/item/524962437081.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.bH0hRU#detail
  
 No that is not the USBX-M200 that's no where to be found...


----------



## elms

anyobody tried usb/ip installed on a router with open-wrt?


----------



## rb2013

elms said:


> anyobody tried usb/ip installed on a router with open-wrt?


 

 Now you guys are way over my head - actually I was lost on page 44...


----------



## wakka992

mmmm.... I just read that Ethernet Galvanic isolation comes only with 1-10Gigabit Ethernet, not with standard one...
  
 I assume a Gigabit extender is needed then


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> mmmm.... I just read that Ethernet Galvanic isolation comes only with 1-10Gigabit Ethernet, not with standard one...
> 
> I assume a Gigabit extender is needed then


 

 Ok then - back to the 1GB LAN solution - of course you can add one of these - but another $160 (the cheapest I found) - just go with the 1GB LAN version
  
*Baaske MI 1005 Medical Ethernet Isolator *
  
 http://industrialcomponent.com/baaske/mi1005.html


----------



## rb2013

Sure wish that video was up - I watched it 5-6 times.  It took a couple of views to sink in what he was saying.  When he said 'We have the Regen and Jitterbugs - and this just knocks there socks off' (paraphrasing).  Boy that got my attention.
  
 At the presentation he said they were going into beta testing through June - I thought why wait - and did the google search.  Thanks for everyone's help trying to figure this thing out.
  
 But I would like to see the video a few more times.  Should have recorded it. I remember he was grinning like a Cheshire cat - and mentioned after the presentation they (seemed like a group of about a dozen) were all going into the listening room to do the A/B demo.  He also said he really liked the Regen.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi RB,
  
 Yeah, - he was using a Regen at a recent SFAS meeting we had a couple of months ago. Running it off of a MacMini into his Directstream DAC & new monoblocks. He was pretty high on the Regen.
 I am already committed to the Sonore microRendu, (Regen built in), or I would try. This solution doesn't appear to work with Roon/HQPlayer etc. as a NAA is needed.
  
 One might also want to compare Corning optical USB cables as well....
  
http://www.corning.com/optical-cables-by-corning/worldwide/en/products/usb-optical-cables.html


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 That's the thing. It is my understanding that you can damage Gigabit Ethernet switches with some of these "non-LAN-compatible" devices that use standard ethernet cable but may not actually convert the USB signal to the OSI TCP/IP packet transfer model.
  
 I may be wrong about that, - but even if these cheaper, non gigabit guys don't cause any harm, - I don't want to run a separate, direct-to-direct CAT6 cable & confuse things. It's value drops precipitously if it cannot be plugged into the LAN.


----------



## seeteeyou

FYI - here's another tried and true solution for those of us with USB 3.0 ports (no love for USB 2.0 whatsoever)
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/650256/jkenny-audio-ci-nas-dac-and-ci-nas-spdif/585#post_10706641
  


clemmaster said:


> In my system, an Adnaco SU1 USB fiber system had a better impact with the Ciunas DAC than the Offramp ever had. I must have a noisy USB port.


 
  
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/650256/jkenny-audio-ci-nas-dac-and-ci-nas-spdif/585#post_10707121
  


clemmaster said:


> It is a fiber USB 3.0 cable + receiver that is used to run USB 3 signal up to 100 meter- more than what a traditional copper USB 3.0 cable can achieve.
> It has an active receiver at the other end that is powered externally by 5V switching PSU. I eventually want to replace it with a battery.
> 
> It basically provides galvanic isolation from the computer (like TOSLink cables), which improves the sound dramatically in my case. It is not a USB isolator (which don't support anything > USB 1.1), but it still "completely" isolates my DAC/Converter from the noisy USB ports. It is possible it adds a good deal of jitter (or not, I said possible, I really don't know) but moderns DACs are very good at dealing with that. Worst case: add a USB reclocker like the Schiit Wyrd and you should be good.
> ...


 
  
  
 Local audiophiles here in Hong Kong are loving Adnaco-SU1 and the discussions are getting over 90 pages so far
  
 http://www.post76.com/x2/thread-190707-1-1.html
  
  
 Adnaco did sell them as a reseller but not anymore
  
 http://www.adnaco.com/doc/Adnaco-SU1-DS.pdf
 http://www.adnaco.biz/blogs/adnaco-for-medical/13654565-adnaco-su1-usb-3-0-fiber-optic-extension-system
  
 It's actually designed and made in China by EverPro, right now they're the only source
  
 http://www.everprotech.com/Products/5.aspx
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=524402310591
 https://www.amazon.cn/s?ie=UTF8&me=A2P6YZ7S98C08&page=1
 http://www.cypress.com/news/cypress-and-everpro-extend-usb-30-performance-100-meters-confirmation-product-interoperability
  
 719 RMB ($110) for 10-meter optical USB male-to-male cables, 398 RMB ($62) for the USB 3.0 to 2.0 translator with 4.0mm x 1.7mm DC power input. Therefore we could feed that with our own LPS / $49 iFi 5V iPower etc.
  
 1599 RMB ($250) for 50-meter (165-ft) cables, not a bad deal if you're OK with USB 3.0 ports.
  
  
 Similar stuff below
  
 https://shop109734740.taobao.com
 http://www.opti-cloud.com/us/products.html
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=525707719107
  
 This one does support USB 2.0 but the compatibility as well as longevity (or lack thereof) didn't seem to be so swell
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Optical-Cables-Corning-Cable-Meter/dp/B00JOJRF6K
 http://www.corning.com/optical-cables-by-corning/worldwide/en/products/usb-optical-cables.html
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/corning-optical-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-experiences-23437/
  
  
 Personally I would rather go for that optical USB option instead of converting USB to Ethernet conversion myself.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi RB,
> 
> Yeah, - he was using a Regen at a recent SFAS meeting we had a couple of months ago. Running it off of a MacMini into his Directstream DAC & new monoblocks. He was pretty high on the Regen.
> I am already committed to the Sonore microRendu, (Regen built in), or I would try. This solution doesn't appear to work with Roon/HQPlayer etc. as a NAA is needed.
> ...


 
 Thanks for that thoughtful reply - I really like the Regen with proper power source and just slightly prefer the Recovery with the F-1.  Although the F-1 works very well with Regen/LPS which I use in my office system.  I have looked at corning optical USB cable  - but unfortunately they do use copper lines needed to power the electo-optical converters doesn't do complete galvanic isolation.   Waiting on Thunderbolt 2 & 3 - and I'm toying with the idea of giving TB2 a try with a Clarett and a PCI-e/TB2 card using the corningn TB2 active optical.    But this 1GB LAN/USB is a much simpler solution - I'm all about plug and play. 
  
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812795004&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Thunderbolt+Cables+%26+Adapters-_-N82E16812795004&gclid=CL-6_ounrcwCFcRgfgoduawEUA&gclsrc=aw.ds
  


albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> That's the thing. It is my understanding that you can damage Gigabit Ethernet switches with some of these "non-LAN-compatible" devices that use standard ethernet cable but may not actually convert the USB signal to the OSI TCP/IP packet transfer model.
> 
> I may be wrong about that, - but even if these cheaper, non gigabit guys don't cause any harm, - I don't want to run a separate, direct-to-direct CAT6 cable & confuse things. It's value drops precipitously if it cannot be plugged into the LAN.


 
 I believe you are correct  - I posted this picture a few pages ago from the back of the Extron USB extender - the warning sign says it all:


 But the Startech USB2G4LEXT2 I ordered looks complete compatible with a LAN.  Now for me the LAN is of minimal importance  - it's SQ improvement I'm after - at the lowest cost.   So a true USB 2.0 extender may just do the trick with the medical grade galvanic isolator in the link.  We'll see - I need to find a reasonable costing one - $200 for the above Extron is too much.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 Thanks... I was just reading about the Corning after I posted above, - yeah, - (as you said), having copper run the power doesn't do galvanic isolation.
  
 Yeah, hear you on the highest quality at the lowest cost. Although I'm going with another solution, my "computer/server" is in my neighbors basement, and we're sharing a LAN, at any one time 40 devices connected, 8 or so are audio. Running a direct to direct solution like the Extron or cheaper CAT6 cable converters wouldn't work.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

Now the $64 million question is do these Ethernet USB extender add their own jitter - so we are just substituting one problem for another - and expensively.
  
  
 If it where not for that now deleted Youtube video  - I wouldn't even bother - but Paul has tremendous credibility with me and the way he was so enthusiastic about it.  Grinning from ear to ear - discussing the effort just naming this new product (LanRover).  It had me bowled over.  I'm sure they have tested the jitter from this thing oand obviously loved the SQ.
  
 So time will tell  - I'm in Seattle  - so this should only take a week to get here from Amazon.
  
 BTW still waiting for that third F-1 ordered from Ebay seller Shenzen.  Two day DHL - my a**.
  
 I would avoid this guy and go straight to Taobao and use a buying service.


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> FYI - here's another tried and true solution for those of us with USB 3.0 ports (no love for USB 2.0 whatsoever)
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/650256/jkenny-audio-ci-nas-dac-and-ci-nas-spdif/585#post_10706641
> 
> ...


 

 The corning optical cables do not provide complete galvanic isolation - the electro-optical couplers add tremendous jitter (otherwise we'd all be using TOSLINK), and the corning cable has had compatibility issues and is not cheap.  That's a no go for me.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 I like Paul as well, and that video was great. I had the Directstream DAC in the house for a couple of weeks before blowing up my MAC Mini, (USB ports working, - but not running the USB audio Codec for some reason).
  
 I was just about to buy the SHenzen F1 right now. (I bought the metal project case you linked to) THANK YOU SO MUCH for the alert on Shenzen...


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks... I was just reading about the Corning after I posted above, - yeah, - (as you said), having copper run the power doesn't do galvanic isolation.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes the TB2 corning is complete GI.  But there is still the question E-O coupler jitter.  Now what I like about the Startech ethernet/usb approach is a separate ext dc power feed at the receiver end.  The transmiter end is USB powered.  I use a PPA V2 PCIe USB card with a separate iPower 5VDC power feed - so even that will be separate from the PC USB.
  
 PS the Rendu is very nice but $1300 not so nice!  And on the PS Audio deleted video he talks about the bauky nature of UPnP, and how nice it wuld be to avoid that whole thing with USB over LAN.​ http://www.rendu.sonore.us/rendu.html


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> I like Paul as well, and that video was great. I had the Directstream DAC in the house for a couple of weeks before blowing up my MAC Mini, (USB ports working, - but not running the USB audio Codec for some reason).
> 
> I was just about to buy the SHenzen F1 right now. (I bought the metal project case you linked to) THANK YOU SO MUCH for the alert on Shenzen...


 

 He is a nightmare - screwed me on two Melodious MX-U8's one I could fix - sold as is no return!
  
 PS shorted - new out of the box - blew through 4 fuses before I took it apart. spotted the problem and fixed it myself.

  
 He took my order on Ebay April 8th - one of the first then said he had none!  Here was his message on shipping April 14th:


> wsz0304:​
> thanks for you order my product,
> sorry to tell you that,the factory told me that this unit is hot these days,
> so they are producing now,it will be available on 15th this week,it means that i will send this unit to you next week,is ok?
> ...


 
 It is now the April 26th no F-1.  Worse took two weeks of badgering him to get the driver link and passcode.  Freeshoppingchina.com it took 12 hours.
  
 Shenzen is a disaster!  Avoid!  Now I hear the boards he sends do not have the i2s pins attached!


----------



## Albrecht

Thanks again for all the helpful info.....


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Thanks again for all the helpful info.....


 

 I hope you like the F-1 as much as I do - it's really made listening more fun


----------



## murphythecat

wow, just got a lifatec glass cable for my breeze and its a incredible difference compared to my cheap monoprice plastic spdif.
  
 http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html


----------



## rb2013

Thanks dalpa!   The CA thread on the PS Audio LanRover
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/ps-audio-lanrover-28397/


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> wow, just got a lifatec glass cable for my breeze and its a incredible difference compared to my cheap monoprice plastic spdif.
> 
> http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html


 

 Nice!  Reasonable price - I use TOSLINK from my Serius Box to my DAC60.


----------



## rb2013

Speaking of CA - back on the F-1 thread this post!
  


> *leggoslave*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/xmos-xu208-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-bridge-28366/
  
 Damn this is getting fun!
 Cheers!


----------



## roger7

albrecht said:


> My apologies....
> 
> I didn't look closely enough. (I wasted a couple of posts there).
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is not new. More then 10 years ago Slimdevices (early taken over by Logitech) had Squeezebox player. A small device with small VFD display, ethernet connection, digital output and analog one.
 It needed a connection with a server side program (LMS - Logitech Media Server) that keeps repository of music (plenty of music format and internet radio along with Pandora, Tidal, Spotifi etc).
 LMS can be installed at PC/MAC/NAS and can be "kept in the basement". To control you can use dedicated IR remote controller or application on mobile devices (ios, windows, android) that connects to LMS with wifi.
 You can have many players connected through LAN to the same computer with LMS, playing different music or you can synchronize some of players to play the same music. There could be hardware players or software ones (abartels uses for example picoplayer which contains in general software version of squeezebox - squeezelite)

 The latest (2010) player version by Logitech was Squeezebox Touch with 4.3" colour touch screen (no longer in production).
 With EDO mod and current LMS it can digital output (from its usb or coax) 192KHz PCM and DoP.
 Of course could be powered with 5v 3A LPS like Teradak 30W 
 LogitechTransporter was an audiophile version of player in Logitech universe but newest and cheapers Touch was even better
 So from many years computer audio can kept in basement and this solution is still very good, sounds good, used by many. 

 BTW: if you look at sbooster (made for squeezebox) then you know why IFI has created dc purifier


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> I don't think anyone listened to that Paul McGowan from PS Audio - Youtube clip.  WATCH STARTING AT Min 4!!  At Min 5 "he says - knocked the Regen's socks off!"  That is an amazing statement!


 
  
 He couldn't say it was worst then the Regen because they want to sell it and of course not for $400 as OEM device.
 It all looks like sales pitch before the production starts to make a hype but we'll see.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> It is not new. More then 10 years ago Slimdevices (early taken over by Logitech) had Squeezebox player. A small device with small VFD display, ethernet connection, digital output and analog one.
> It needed a connection with a server side program (LMS - Logitech Media Server) that keeps repository of music (plenty of music format and internet radio along with Pandora, Tidal, Spotifi etc).
> LMS can be installed at PC/MAC/NAS and can be "kept in the basement". To control you can use dedicated IR remote controller or application on mobile devices (ios, windows, android) that connects to LMS with wifi.
> You can have many players connected through LAN to the same computer with LMS, playing different music or you can synchronize some of players to play the same music. There could be hardware players or software ones (abartels uses for example picoplayer which contains in general software version of squeezebox - squeezelite)
> ...


 

 This is a huge difference!  The Slimdvices had lousy clocks needed and were modded to get any where decent SQ.
  
 What this 1GB Ethernet LAN USB extenders do is monumental!  First IF Paul McGowen's comments about SQ improvements to normal USB audio are true this is a sea change amongst tidal waves already.  The reason - is SYNERGIES! First take the ubiquitous USB (MAC, WIN or LINUX) audio of today's computerland - link it (and refine it) with near sota Hi Fidelity - and it's plug and play nature - offering thousands of DDC/DAC solutions from $40 to $80,000.  Now add on top the latest performance enhancers for USB like the Regen, Recovery, and iPurifier2 - to achieve remarkable SQ improvements.  And wrap this all in a LAN/WiFI  friendly Audio IP connectivity (toss in galvanic isolation) - and well this is what is so exciting about what has happened here on this thread today.


----------



## ciphercomplete

roger7 said:


> He couldn't say it was worst then the Regen because they want to sell it and of course not for $400 as OEM device.
> It all looks like sales pitch before the production starts to make a hype but we'll see.




Thats what I thought when i first watched the video. I kept thinking back to how much McGowan hyped the Directstream dac and how now it is rarely mentioned as an endgame dac. But this type of tech has been around for a while and while I certainly wont be buying the sure to be overpriced PS Audio version, I am going to try one of the usb to ethernet devices mentioned in this thread.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> He couldn't say it was worst then the Regen because they want to sell it and of course not for $400 as OEM device.
> It all looks like sales pitch before the production starts to make a hype but we'll see.


 

 Yatta, Yatta, Yatta - trying to steal p**t negativity?  He's got a lock on that market.

 Why is that anytime a new audio break though come along  - there is always the naysayer calling it hype.  They of course never have heard that which they criticize and in a backhanded way mock - worst call corrupt.  Ridiculous.  Especially in the face of near universal agreement - among those who have actually heard it
  
 Dude this thread is not for you - try the Radioshack cables beat all thread...


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> Thats what I thought when i first watched the video. I kept thinking back to how much McGowan hyped the Directstream dac and how now it is rarely mentioned as an endgame dac. But this type of tech has been around for a while and while I certainly wont be buying the sure to be overpriced PS Audio version, I am going to try one of the usb to ethernet devices mentioned in this thread.


 

 I don't see Intel touting the Pentium anymore, nor Microsoft Windows 98 - audio by it's nature will constantly move forward.  Digital audio especially - it's called progress.   But in analog too!  Get a copy of the 1999 Absolute Sound - see the recommended products for analog - any being relavant today?   But none of that great gear of 'old' has diminished in SQ - no just surpassed.
  
 And of course every manufacturer is going to press their case - like a politician.  But what happened today was extraordinary - first to give such detailed information for an item THAT IS NOT A PRODUCT TODAY!  In other words can't be bought!  Why hype vaporware in audio?  I know why they do it in computerland - but in audio it makes no sense.
  
 Was that Youtube video a mistake on the part of a employee?  It didn't look like it to me - it was professionally recorded.  Was it just pure excitement at a earth shaking audio discovery?  I certainly hope so.  But then to take it down less then 24 hours later...very interesting...this kind of thing very rarely happens.


----------



## rb2013

Wait the plot thickens...it's back up!
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g

  
  
 Boy this sure looks like the unit he's holding in his hand - the transmitter unit


----------



## ginetto61

ciphercomplete said:


> ...   I kept thinking back to how much McGowan hyped the Directstream dac and how now it is rarely mentioned as an endgame dac...


 
  
 Hi ! i remember very well that video and got excited even if the price was above my budget.
 Still i would like to have the opportunity to listen to that dac ... it caught my imagination.
 Ps Audio has a long history or excellent products especially for the price.   i remember the story of their 1st battery powered phono preamp.  A very telling story.
 I am very curious to see the development of this device.
 It promises to work very well even with cheap usb cables and without the need of additional "conditioning" of the usb signal.
 I hate deeply expensive cables.
 Time will tell.
 Regards,  gino
  
 P.S. however if i am not wrong even a cheap usb to ethernet extender (that i have somewhere) can provide galvanic isolation, a very very good thing.
 I will try them again ... there is one sender and one receiver.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Wait the plot thickens...it's back up!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi !    Yes !!!  they really look like the Ps Audio device !!!
 the one on the left should be the receiver and the one on the right the sender ?
 However *I do not see a usb port on the receiver ... *




 i wonder how they work in reality.
 For sure they look alike.
 Thanks a lot,   gino
  
 P.S. ok ... i think i have found it.  Interesting device indeed. I hoped they were cheaper ...


----------



## sbgk

from ca, is this the oem version ? Manuals etc available here
  
 http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/


----------



## ginetto61

Thanks ! i see many other interesting products ...
http://www.icron.com/products/
 i am very ignorant on the issue sadly. 
 The cheapest one should be around 300 USD ?
 Regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> from ca, is this the oem version ? Manuals etc available here
> 
> http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/


 

 Yes @mhamel linked to that yesterday same as the Startech
  


> Product is sold as unbranded,  turnkey integration, and available for private label.


----------



## rb2013

USB 2.0 RG2304GE-LAN Features 
Extends USB through 1000Mbps LANs
Extends USB 3.0, 2.0 high-speed and USB 1.1 (both low-speed and full-speed) devices
Operates with USB 3.0, 2.0 and 1.1 hosts
Supports all USB compliant devices (including isochronous such as webcams or audio devices) up to 480Mbps
True plug and play. No drivers required
Supports all major operating systems: Windows®, Mac OS X®, and Linux®
Uses a standard solid core Cat 5e cable for easy installation or existing LAN infrastructure
Pre-paired networked configuration for simple installation if purchased as a complete Local and Remote Extender system
Number of devices can be increased using additional USB hubs
FCC Class B
Rugged metal enclosure
Support for advanced platform features such as SwitchableUSB™, Device Class Filtering, Simultaneous User Interaction, Hot Key support, and Vendor Lock.
  
  
 Question it says "std solid core CAT 5e cable"  I assume a CAT 6a and CAT7 cable would work - as they are just made to handle higher freq and throughput - closer tolerances


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> USB 2.0 RG2304GE-LAN Features
> Extends USB through 1000Mbps LANs
> Extends USB 3.0, 2.0 high-speed and USB 1.1 (both low-speed and full-speed) devices
> Operates with USB 3.0, 2.0 and 1.1 hosts
> ...


 
  
 Yes, extended Cat5, and everything above is OK. Solid core normally is only used for long distances, patch cables, the ones we use on daily purpose, are not solid core but good enough.
 If you have to bridge longer distances I would use solid core. But, all normal UTP/STP cables sold are not solid core.


----------



## rb2013

Here is a non-LAN USB port extender with just one USB port for $266 on Amazon. It looks like it can handle USB 2.0 no problem and high speed 480mBps.
  
 The normal port extenders made by ICRON use a ASIC called ExtremeUSB®, and the LAN version uses the LionsGate™ USB 2.0 Extension ASIC.
  
StarTech.com 330-Feet 1 Port USB 2.0 for Cat5/Cat6 Ethernet Extender, Black (USB2001EXT2)  

Extend a USB 2.0 device up to 100m/ 330ft away from the computer over a single Cat5 or Cat6 ethernet cable
Connect USB devices with up to 480Mbps of bandwidth and the full 500mA of power for improved speed, compatibility and reliability
Eliminates the need to cascade expensive, inflexible and space consuming USB hubs or repeaters for USB range extension
One USB 2.0 port over a single Cat5/Cat6 cable
Maximum extension distance of up to 100m (330ft) over Cat5 or Cat6 cabling
Rugged, metal enclosure with surface-mounting bracket kit included
Hi-Speed USB 2.0 compliant, with support for data transfer rates up to 480 Mbps
Up to 500mA of power per port, for USB bus-powered devices
  
 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EFZC5A?psc=1


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Yes, extended Cat5, and everything above is OK. Solid core normally is only used for long distances, patch cables, the ones we use on daily purpose, are not solid core but good enough.
> If you have to bridge longer distances I would use solid core. But, all normal UTP/STP cables sold are not solid core.


 

 Thanks!  I ordered a few other cables from Amazon last night  - I can always use on my cable router.
  
 Non-flat CAT 7 Premium 7ft  - $9.25
  
Tera Grand - Premium CAT7 Double Shielded 10 Gigabit 600MHz Ethernet Patch Cable for Modem Router LAN Network - Built with Gold Plated & Shielded RJ45 Connectors, 7 Feet Black 
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Tera-Grand-Shielded-Ethernet-Connectors/dp/B00CJLEHPM?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00


----------



## rb2013

Looking at these ICRON USB extenders:\
  
  
 The 1GB LAN version sells on Amazon for $970 under the ICRON branding:
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U6K5LZS/ref=s9_hps_bw_g421_i7
  
 From ICRON OEM page - where to buy - a list for the US - each gives details on the design and features - and a range of models:
 http://www.icron.com/where-to-buy/
  
B&B Electronics+1 800 346 3119Connectronics+1 (319) 366 4971L-com Connectivity Products+1 800 343 1455IndustrialComponent.com+1 877 446 8947KVM Switches Online+1 (303) 604 0237Rochester Imaging Technology Corporation+1 (585) 672 5504KVMSwitchTech+1 (234) 380 5708Aegis Electronic Group+1 888 687 6877
  
 B&B Electronics has a normal 2 USB port nonLan Extender for $369 and the 4port for $329.
  
 http://www.bb-elec.com/Products/USB-Connectivity/USB-Extenders/Icron-USB-Extenders.aspx
  
 The LAN version looks to be $900 but uses fiber for the USB
 http://www.bb-elec.com/Products/Datasheets/USB-Ranger-2224-datasheet.pdf
  
 USB Ranger® 2224 Multimode Fiber Optic USB 2.0 Extender Ranger2224 extends USB 2.0 beyond the desktop up to 500m over multimode fiber optic cabling using ExtremeUSB® technology. Ranger 2224 Features • Powered by ExtremeUSB® . Long reach USB 2.0 enabled by Icron’s LionsGate™ USB 2.0 Extension ASIC. • Extends USB 2.0 high-speed and USB 1.1 (low-speed, full speed) devices up to 500m over fiber optics. • Supports all USB device types: Control, Interrupt, Bulk and Isochronous at up to 480Mbps. • Operates with USB 2.0 high-speed host controllers and USB 1.1 classic hosts. • True plug and play, ready to operate right out of the box. No new driver installation required. • Supports all major operating systems including Windows®, Mac OS®, and Linux®. • Integrated hub provides four remote USB 2.0 ports. Number of devices can be increased using additional USB hubs. • AC power adapter at remote unit provides standard 500mA to each USB port. • Power adapter at local unit is not required for normal operation. • Ideal for a wide variety of USB devices, from printers, scanners, hard drives, and audio devices, to touch screens, web cams, and game controller


----------



## rb2013

On none of these ICRON boxes do I see galvanic isolation mentioned - is it just inherent to the USB to TCP/IP conversion - in other words magnetic coupling?


----------



## rb2013

OK I think I have a little more clarity on the ICRON lineup.
  
 Their is both a nonLAN and a LAN version called the USB Ranger 2304 - it does not appear at all on B&B offering page.  So I guess all those are just nonLAN USB extenders.
  
 nonLAN version:


> USB 2.0 Ranger® 2304 4-port Cat 5e 100 meter extender​​
> The USB 2.0 Ranger 2304 is a four port USB 2.0 high speed extension solution, enabling USB 2.0 connections at up to 480Mbps over 100m/330ft of Cat 5e cabling. The Ranger 2304 is the latest USB 2.0  extender system from Icron, offering the same reliable USB 2.0 extension benefits as the Ranger 2204, but with faster throughputs when using read/write devices such as external hard drives as well as supporting a greater number of connections (up to 31 devices and hubs). The Ranger 2304 provides an integrated four port remote USB 2.0 powered hub delivering 600mA to each port supporting all USB 1.1, 2.0 and 3.0 device types (up to 480Mbps).
> 
> The Ranger 2304 provides true USB 2.0 extension at up to 480Mbps over Cat 5e cabling, without the need of additional software drivers. A true plug-and-play solution, the Ranger 2304 is compatible with all leading operating systems, and supports all USB 3.0, 2.0 and 1.1 peripherals such as flash drives, keyboards, mice, webcams and interactive whiteboards across a dedicated Cat 5e connection. An integrated four port hub allows for extension of up to four USB devices without the need for an additional hub.
> ...


 
  
 LAN version:


> USB 2.0 Ranger® 2304-LAN 4-port Ethernet LAN Extender System​​
> The USB 2.0 Ranger 2304-LAN is a four port USB 2.0 high-speed extension solution with the ability to connect USB 3.0, 2.0 and 1.1 devices  such as flash drives, keyboards, mice, and interactive whiteboards to hosts across a Local Area Network (LAN) using existing Ethernet cabling. Please note, isochronous peripherals (such as webcams and audio devices) are not supported.
> 
> The USB 2.0 Ranger 2304-LAN extends USB 3.0, 2.0 and 1.1 peripherals such as flash drives, keyboards, mice, and interactive whiteboards across a Local Area Network (LAN) and supports modern USB 3.0 controllers.  The Ranger 2304-LAN includes the ExtremeUSB® suite of features such as true plug and play (no software drives required) and compatibility with all leading operating systems. Up to 31 USB devices or hubs can be supported over LAN. Please note, isochronous devices (such as webcams and audio) are not supported.​ *Features​*​
> ...


 
  
 Now here it says:


> Please note, isochronous devices (such as webcams and audio) are not supported.​​


 
 So it appears no isochronous audio devices on the LAN version - but Async Audio devices OK - I guess?  Well mine will be here on Thursday or Friday Amazon tells me.  So we will see!


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> On none of these ICRON boxes do I see galvanic isolation mentioned - is it just inherent to the USB to TCP/IP conversion - in other words magnetic coupling?


 
  
 The LAN units are not sending power, the receiver is powered by what looks like a 24VDC power supply. (If I end up trying one of these, I've got a medical-grade 24VDC linear PSU I put together for a modified Bravo amp several years ago that would probably work nicely for this.) In addition, per the Ethernet spec, the ports are supposed to be transformer coupled... regardless of protocol (TCP/IP or otherwise). I would avoid using STP cable however, unless it specifically calls for it, and stick with UTP.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> The LAN units are not sending power, the receiver is powered by what looks like a 24VDC power supply. (If I end up trying one of these, I've got a medical-grade 24VDC linear PSU I put together for a modified Bravo amp several years ago that would probably work nicely for this.) In addition, per the Ethernet spec, the ports are supposed to be transformer coupled... regardless of protocol (TCP/IP or otherwise). I would avoid using STP cable however, unless it specifically calls for it, and stick with UTP.


 

 Thanks!  Is UTP unshielded and STP shielded?
  

  
  
 Used STP back in the 70's in my hemi - good stuff.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!  Is UTP unshielded and STP shielded?


 
  
 Yes, STP is shielded, and the connectors have a metal shell that conducts the shield, where UTP cables do not. The transformer coupling applies to the data lines, not the shield.
  
  


rb2013 said:


> Used STP back in the 70's in my hemi - good stuff.


 
  





   These days, I use Royal Purple in mine.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Yes, STP is shielded, and the connectors have a metal shell that conducts the shield, where UTP cables do not. The transformer coupling applies to the data lines, not the shield.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks - looks like CAT7 are all shielded.  You would think shielded is better in an audio situation - but I guess not.
  
 Wish I still had my '70 Hemi Charger - had a 2009 one though SRT - not the same...


----------



## rb2013

OK found the Rextron USB extender that Alex posted - rebranded as Startech on Amazon for $137.87.  $9 shipping.
  
 StarTech.com 4-Port USB 2.0-Over-Cat5/6 Extender up to 130-Feet with Compact USB Extension (USB2004EXTV) 


 by StarTech
  

Connect four USB 2.0 devices away from your computer over Cat5 up to 130ft (40m) or Cat6 up to 165ft (50m)
USB 2.0 Extender over Ethernet
Cost-effective & compact USB extension over single Ethernet cable
Features 2 top ports
OS independent
Transfer rates of up to 480 Mbps
Kit includes a transmitter and a 4 port hub receiver
Plug-and-play and hot-swap compatible
 

  
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-2-0-Over-Cat5-Extender-Extension-USB2004EXTV/dp/B00T9RTT2U?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00


----------



## BrainFood

rb2013 said:


> The ones provided seem very stable - both the F-1 and X-1 were running all night with out a freeze or unlock.  They may not be the latest drivers but installed without a hiccup on both my WIN10 and WIN7 machines.


 
  
 Do any of the available F1 drivers enable changing of latency settings in the control panel?


----------



## rb2013

Same as this - nonLAN but high speed USB 2.0
  
 http://www.rextron.com/index.php?action=product_detail&p=6&sid=0&id=47
  

Extend 4 USB signal transmission up to 50M by CAT5e Cable ​​ ■ Support the USB 2.0 high-speed host controllers (USB 1.0, 1.1 compatible)​​ ■ Plug-n-Play system without any driver or software installation​​ ■ Suitable for most of popular USB devices (USB web cams, USB printers, USB Scanner, external hard disk drives ....)​​ ■ 4 USB 2.0 ports are available and can be increased via using additional USB hubs​​ ■ Unique mecanism design of two ports on  top for easily connecting USB peripherals.​​ ■ Local Unit can be powered by the host PC​​ ■ Small profile for convenient installation and save space​​ ■ Fully support Windows, Mac and Linux system​


----------



## rb2013

brainfood said:


> Do any of the available F1 drivers enable changing of latency settings in the control panel?


 

 No - not that I have seen.


----------



## rb2013

So I have the two Startech on order - one the super 'PS Audio'-like version - LAN supported.  And the regular HI Speed USB extender much cheaper - and the medical grade galvanic isolator.
  
 When they all arrive will do a extensive listening session and start a new thread.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> So I have the two Startech on order - one the super 'PS Audio'-like version - LAN supported.  And the regular HI Speed USB extender much cheaper - and the medical grade galvanic isolator.
> 
> When they all arrive will do a extensive listening session and start a new thread.


 
 Interesting.
 Just bought the F1, Intona, Aqvox, a couple of Supra USB cables and those might already be outdated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Will follow this.


----------



## rb2013

Ok looking at these Sonore UpNP/DNLA players  - it looks like to get the Crystek CCHD clocks on spdif you need to buy the Rendu Signature Series - $2800
  
 http://www.rendu.sonore.us/signature-series-rendu.html
  
 The Micro-Rendu only outputs USB it's $690 with an iPower
 http://www.microrendu.sonore.us
  
 I don't think any of these will work with Foobar in windows.
  
 In the 'LANRover' PS Audio video Paul McGowen mentions their own 'Bridge' UpNP device and the limited players it works with and as he says "there we are stuck with UpNP, it sounds great but, you're limited in the number of programs it works with, it can be problematic --- 'fussy' is the way people put it..."
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
 dicusses UpNP at the 2 min mark
  
 Sonore seems to really like the iPowers


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Interesting.
> Just bought the F1, Intona, Aqvox, a couple of Supra USB cables and those might already be outdated
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Welcome to computer audio - as I say none of this new stuff, suddenly makes your current gear sound worse.
  
 It's all a continual process of advancement.  The F-1 is the core of my systems right now - really thinking of just selling my analog rig - the digital is just so good right now.
  
  
 If it gets any better - that could be a problem - as I have a hard time each night watching TV with the wifey.  Knowing what sonic joy is waiting for me downstairs...she's starting to comment on it..."we're not spending as much time together".


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Yatta, Yatta, Yatta - trying to steal p**t negativity?  He's got a lock on that market.
> 
> Why is that anytime a new audio break though come along  - there is always the naysayer calling it hype.  They of course never have heard that which they criticize and in a backhanded way mock - worst call corrupt.  Ridiculous.  Especially in the face of near universal agreement - among those who have actually heard it


 
  
 You've got me wrong. I'm not a naysayer or mocking.
 I didn't say it couldn't work well or sound good.
 I'm just sceptical of only one opinion and the opinion of the man who praises the thing he wants to start selling in near future.
 We couldn't say it's a new audio break though because nobody has got a chance to try it or review it. So there can't be universal agreement of lanrover godness. I'm trying to be realistic and to tone down the enthusiasm before the final product will arrive and we can judge if it is sure something spectacular.
  


rb2013 said:


> Dude this thread is not for you - try the Radioshack cables beat all thread...


 
  
 If I were as sarcastic as you I would even say that this thread is not for people who don't share your initial enthusiasm for thing none has tried (besides salesman).
 But I'm not and, as I said, we'll see (hear) if it is good.
  
 PS. Yes, indeed, my cables are US ones but not from Radioshack


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> You've got me wrong. I'm not a naysayer or mocking.
> I didn't say it couldn't work well or sound good.
> I'm just sceptical of only one opinion and the opinion of the man who praises the thing he wants to start selling in near future.
> We couldn't say it's a new audio break though because nobody has got a chance to try it or review it. So there can't be universal agreement of lanrover godness. I'm trying to tone down the enthusiasm before the final product will arrive and we can judge if it is sure something spectacular.
> ...


 

 Fair enough - I take back my snark.
  
 Well I just hate to see potentially great advancements get the snuff treatment - before they get a chance to be heard.  It's constant around the audio blogosphere - the Regen got the treatment, the F-1 to a degree by a few perma-skeptics.   It's the insinuation that the thread starter is either a 'dup' or corrupted by personal interest, and the tone used.  Just the word you used 'Hype' is over-hyped, and has malicious connotations.  Disagree all you want to about my or others comments on stuff we are enthused about - if you have it or heard it - great.  But just rank dismissal of all new stuff - is uncalled for - hence my snark and attitude.
  
 Raining on other's parade is a common technique for placing one above others - go start your own thread bashing this new stuff - it would be great.  A Troll heaven - see how many join and view it.
  
  
 Paul has great credibility with me - now why he would post this video is a mystery to me, especially when it's still in beta testing and worse it's not a in-house project-  but OEM'd.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But I thank him for it!  No questions asked Amazon refund policy and low cost local shipping make this a no-brainer experiment.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi RB,
  
 I'll be one of the first batch to get a microRendu, - any day now. I am not so sure that I'd say that they're big on the iFi Stuff like the iPower. I think that it's more like they want to offer something great, and something workable, thinking that many people already have LPSs with their other boxes, and they are working on their own LPSs for both the Signature and the micro, plus, - they partner with Uptone Audio who are coming out with theirs...
  
 I snagged a Teradak off of Ebay and I'll likely buy the Uptone audio one with a FPGA when it is available in June or July.
  
 The microREndu has Regen tech built in and the initial reports are that it is amazing sounding.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi RB,
> 
> I'll be one of the first batch to get a microRendu, - any day now. I am not so sure that I'd say that they're big on the iFi Stuff like the iPower. I think that it's more like they want to offer something great, and something workable, thinking that many people already have LPSs with their other boxes, and they are working on their own LPSs for both the Signature and the micro, plus, - they partner with Uptone Audio who are coming out with theirs...
> 
> ...


 

 Well that will be interesting for sure - do you know what clocks they will be using in the micro?  The Regen tech you mention is their ultra low noise regulators?  And USB reclocking?
  
 Which TeraDak? The X1/X2 or DC-30W?  I would recommend the DC iPurifier on either TeraDak as the regulators they use are fairly noisy.
  
 I saw Sonore post this chart on their website on the iPower:


 Not knocking it I like the iPowers - a great low cost solution - I know Alex from Uptone is not a big fan.  I do prefer a LPS- but those are more expensive.  I applaud Sonore for offering the upgrade.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 No, - i don't know what clocks are being used. And, - sorry, - also don't know the exact nature of how much Regen tech is built in. John Swenson designed the hardware. I know that it has a 1 GB of RAM, and a Gigabit NIC.
  
 My TeraDack is the $140 30w version, - not an X1 or X2...  9v 2.5a LPS.
  
 As I understand it, - the new Uptone LPS, - has FPGA built in, and is similar to the Sbooster type of topology where one still needs a wall-wart or LPS to send power to it. Alex said that the power supply doesn't address issues that switched mode PSs have with sending dirty power back into the mains. So, - I'm really hoping that my TeraDak can power the new Uptone power supply.
  




  
 The microRendu seems to work with so many platforms. I'll definitely be trying UPnP, LMS, MiniMserver, - and very likely Roon...Unless Roon or MiniMserver sounds dramatically better, - I'll likely just stick to LMS as I have 4 Squeezeboxes running in our building, and 5 users of LMS/Squeeze. (I share a network with my downstairs neighbors). 
  
 With the iPower, - I've only compared it to the stock Squeezebox PSU, & some stock supplies for my FMCs, I either heard no differences whatsoever, or the $11 Jameco LPS wall warts sounded a little better. The iPower isn't a LPS, - and i must say that I'm not so keen on it either. Plus, a couple of friends have had theirs die. (The $11 Jamecos won't work with a SBT though).


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> No, - i don't know what clocks are being used. And, - sorry, - also don't know the exact nature of how much Regen tech is built in. John Swenson designed the hardware. I know that it has a 1 GB of RAM, and a Gigabit NIC.
> 
> ...


 
 Great info on the new Uptone PS - waiting to see the outcome there.  I do like the DC-30w R-core teradak you have coming and did hear a difference with the DC iPurifier - it goes on the tip of the DC cable - and filters out some of the noise. 
  
 I have heard the early versions (esp the 9VDC) had some trans mechanical hum issues.  I have a 9VDC and a 5VDC no noise or problems so far - it's been several months of 24/7 use.
 I would recommend some typr of AC line filter and isolation.  I have dedicated Art Audio PB4X4Pro's for the DAC and separate for the DDC.  They filter and isolate the SMPS and Swenson's infamous 'Packet noise' from bleeding through the AC line into other gear - esp the DAC's.
  
 They are not to expensive and well made discrete boards - they have to be the 'Pro' series to have the AC filtering:


> All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF™ (Advanced Power Filtering) which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.
> By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. *High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C*. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, *you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system*. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.


 
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=433046&gclid=CNPR0qG0r8wCFVBffgodxUcFrQ&is=REG&ap=y&m=Y&c3api=1876%2C91438732682%2C&Q=&A=details


----------



## sbgk

AbeCollins on AA says that his local audio club heard the LanRover at a PS demo last Saturday, have asked if there was any feedback.
  
 http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=157240


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> AbeCollins on AA says that his local audio club heard the LanRover at a PS demo last Saturday, have asked if there was any feedback.
> 
> http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=157240


 

 That'll be interesting...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 PS It looks like the thread start was yesterday with link Mike posted yesterday to the Startech 1GB LAN USB extender...hum...


----------



## Albrecht

Thank you again for the helpful comments on the TeraDak. Alex said that there would be more details on the Uptone FPGA LPS soon. As I understand it, it acts more like sophisticated, programmed filter, - (it's going it have a programmed SD card). My TeraDak is sitting on the audio rack, patiently awaiting the microRendu....


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Thank you again for the helpful comments on the TeraDak. Alex said that there would be more details on the Uptone FPGA LPS soon. As I understand it, it acts more like sophisticated, programmed filter, - (it's going it have a programmed SD card). My TeraDak is sitting on the audio rack, patiently awaiting the microRendu....


 

 It'll be interesting to see the Micro-Rendu and F-1 together - see is you can use some type of external power for the F-1.  Or it may just work great powered by the M-R


----------



## wushuliu

Eh. I guess I DIY too much to want to spend $$$$ on anything Power Supply related. Amb makes great LPS stuff and for digital specifically there's the Salas LV Shunt kits over at diyaudio. Not to mention amazing old stuff like Astron power supplies on ebay for 11-15v. On and on.
  
 And then there are buried treasures, hidden away in other forums like the Hammond Choke 193L and 193M filter. Just add wall plug from local store and voila, power conditioner that will knock your socks off...


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Fair enough - I take back my snark.
> 
> Well I just hate to see potentially great advancements get the snuff treatment - before they get a chance to be heard.  It's constant around the audio blogosphere - the Regen got the treatment, the F-1 to a degree by a few perma-skeptics.   It's the insinuation that the thread starter is either a 'dup' or corrupted by personal interest, and the tone used.  Just the word you used 'Hype' is over-hyped, and has malicious connotations.  Disagree all you want to about my or others comments on stuff we are enthused about - if you have it or heard it - great.  But just rank dismissal of all new stuff - is uncalled for - hence my snark and attitude.
> 
> ...


 
 I don't mock stuff anyone have or have heard, not even mocked your or others enthusiasm for LanRover. Never did this. I've just pointed to be careful.
 And never insinuated you have any personal interest in stuff you've been describing here.
  
 I don't believe audio salesman even so well known as Paul. It's just my habit.
 What I believe is my ears. And not always, you know, biases, mood, money spent 
 And if many others have confirmed something is good and compare it with other stuff in stable environment then there is a chance (not a certainty) that it could sound good in my rig and I could try and judge finally. For example (thanks to you) many of you confirmed F1 is exceptional good or at least better than Breeze. We all know rating depends on many factors.

 So I conclude it's worth trying in future.
 "Hype" was used to Paul but my english isn't probably good. In my opinion the video could be made to construct anticipation, people waiting for stuff, conjecturing, telling each other. The news is spread. Could be just old free internet ad technique. It's not bad but has nothing to do with real testing. So I'm not denying it could be good, I'm mentaly sceptical for now.
 And later I'll try to construct some more rational anxiety...


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Eh. I guess I DIY too much to want to spend $$$$ on anything Power Supply related. Amb makes great LPS stuff and for digital specifically there's the Salas LV Shunt kits over at diyaudio. Not to mention amazing old stuff like Astron power supplies on ebay for 11-15v. On and on.
> 
> And then there are buried treasures, hidden away in other forums like the Hammond Choke 193L and 193M filter. Just add wall plug from local store and voila, power conditioner that will knock your socks off...


 

 Well the Startech nonLan uses only 5VDC not 12VDC like the LAN version.  That would be way easier to power up with a nice LPS.
  
 Love hammond chokes!  Used one in my DAC60 Mod Project


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 That was a question that i've been wanting to put to you. How would one run external power into the F-1? I was assuming that the board would work great off of the mR with USB power. Jesus of Sonore said that the mR will run a HiFace fine, - and I assumed that F-1 would be also.....


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> I don't mock stuff anyone have or have heard, not even mocked your or others enthusiasm for LanRover. Never did this. I've just pointed to be careful.
> And never insinuated you have any personal interest in stuff you've been describing here.
> 
> I don't believe audio salesman even so well known as Paul. It's just my habit.
> ...


 

 All fair comments!  Well we will see on this 'discovery'  I'm willing to spend the time to try it out - and will give my honest opinion. 
  
 After this experiment - it'll be down ThunderRoad - will begin the TB2 project...


----------



## roger7

> With the iPower, - I've only compared it to the stock Squeezebox PSU, & some stock supplies for my FMCs, I either heard no differences whatsoever, or the $11 Jameco LPS wall warts sounded a little better. The iPower isn't a LPS, - and i must say that I'm not so keen on it either. Plus, a couple of friends have had theirs die. (The $11 Jamecos won't work with a SBT though).


 
  
 You can try Teradak (must be set to 5V) with SBT. Should be better then stock wall wart


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was a question that i've been wanting to put to you. How would one run external power into the F-1? I was assuming that the board would work great off of the mR with USB power. Jesus of Sonore said that the mR will run a HiFace fine, - and I assumed that F-1 would be also.....


 

 Well running it fine and running it optimal are to different things.  I can say the W4S Recovery is better then the Regen - as it uses Crystek CCHD clock, has ext power feed, and ultra low noise regulators.  Yet the use of an iPurifer2 in between did help!  So I would try it both ways.
  
 The M-R is doing many things in a very small space - so sometimes that means compromises.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> You can try Teradak (must be set to 5V) with SBT. Should be better then stock wall wart


 

 Yes the TeraDak DC-30w has adjustable voltage - the little brass screw on top of the little blue box.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 Thanks very much for the reply. I will very likely never try popping open the case on my 9v Teradak and trying to step down the voltage to 5v for my SBTs, - which I just don't care about the SQ that much. If I ever kick up the quality of my bedroom system, - the first thing that I will do is get the SBT there to use a Halide USB DAC or something of that ilk. The PSU would likely come after I upgraded the amp there...   
 But I do appreciate your thoughts..   Cheers,...


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks very much for the reply. I will very likely never try popping open the case on my 9v Teradak and trying to step down the voltage to 5v for my SBTs, - which I just don't care about the SQ that much. If I ever kick up the quality of my bedroom system, - the first thing that I will do is get the SBT there to use a Halide USB DAC or something of that ilk. The PSU would likely come after I upgraded the amp there...
> But I do appreciate your thoughts..   Cheers,...


 

 Just be careful in there - the adjustment has to be done HOT - LETHAL VOLTAGES.


----------



## Albrecht

So, how would I use a PSU with a F-1?
  
  
 TIA


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> So, how would I use a PSU with a F-1?
> 
> 
> TIA


 

 Well a few ways - a split USB cable like the LH labs 2G or a USB power header (I think one comes with the TeraDak).


----------



## Albrecht

Thanks RB,
  
 Man, - I so appreciate you sharing all this information, and all of the stuff you've been trying. I can imagine that you've spent no small amount of money, (& not to mention time), testing and listening....
  
 Really grateful to you for sharing all of this information....


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Thanks RB,
> 
> Man, - I so appreciate you sharing all this information, and all of the stuff you've been trying. I can imagine that you've spent no small amount of money, (& not to mention time), testing and listening....
> 
> Really grateful to you for sharing all of this information....


 

 Much appreciated!  Putting my Audio OCD to good use. That monster seventeen 6922 tube review I did - was a tough one.  Over 150 tube rolls in one week.
  
 Well the big Startech has launched from the Amazon Seattle Biosphere cruising to my listening room - will be here and hear on Friday...damn when are they getting that same day drone service going...


----------



## Albrecht

Awesome........
  
 I loved your 6922 review. My Blue Circle hybrid uses 6922s. The GF has already told me that she's gonna have me locked up if ever try to "tube-roll" the BC204. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also can't wait to read about your results with the StarTechs... I wonder if Ted Smith will mod/re-engineer the StarTechs and set them up as a single USB port. I am curious to see what the "LanRover" will be....


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Awesome........
> 
> I loved your 6922 review. My Blue Circle hybrid uses 6922s. The GF has already told me that she's gonna have me locked up if ever try to "tube-roll" the BC204.
> 
> ...


 

 Ha!  Well it will be interesting - now so many different configurations to try with the Regen, RUR, iPur2, etc...
 I will just put it in with the current config and see - it better be lights out - for that kind of money.  Not just a 'I think I hear a difference'


----------



## rb2013

From the Icron Ranger 2304-LAN users guide:
  
 http://www.icron.com/pdf/usb-2-0-ranger-2304-lan-manual.pdf
  
  


> Rerences to Cat 5e cable in this document represent the minimum requirement. Category 6 or better and/or STP cable may be substituted.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> From the Icron Ranger 2304-LAN users guide:
> 
> http://www.icron.com/pdf/usb-2-0-ranger-2304-lan-manual.pdf


 
  
 You can use STP - technically it will work, but if your goal is complete isolation, then use UTP as only the data lines are transformer coupled.
  
 Maybe STP + the isolation box you picked up would do the same thing, but without seeing exactly how that box works I'm not sure what it's doing.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> You can use STP - technically it will work, but if your goal is complete isolation, then use UTP as only the data lines are transformer coupled.
> 
> Maybe STP + the isolation box you picked up would do the same thing, but without seeing exactly how that box works I'm not sure what it's doing.


 

 Thanks for that - I believe the *Baaske MI 1005 Medical Ethernet Isolator *uses magnetic transformers for the isolation.
  
 It seems that adding isolation to the Audio IP protocol of Ethernet is much easier the Async USB audio - with having to deal with clocking.
  
 I might try an STP with the Baaske to see the SQ effect


----------



## somestranger26

Wow, the "Super PS Audio" version of these LAN extender things is over $300? I thought this was supposed to be an inexpensive alternative to products like the Intona! Glad that rb2013 has volunteered to be the guinea pig / wallet donor.
  


> <something about the I2S not being soldered on the F1 board>


 
   
After seeing this mentioned, I asked the seller on Aliexpress and they said it will come as pictured (with the pins soldered on). Hopefully they're telling the truth.


----------



## hugoboss

update  final test
 F1 Test With Audio GD NOS 7
  


  
  
  
 just to the point
  
 with F1 the sound of NOS 7 is So Much Better. just like my other DAC all The frequencies Just Like Have A BOOST / Steroid
 It SOund More More Dynamic, More Detail, More Airy.
 only one negative i Heard. It sound A little Harsh just A little compare to without F1 In chain
  
  
 Audio GD NOS 7 with IFI IUSB3.0 = just make a little change compare to nos7 amanero usb.
*(i think this little change with ifi micro iusb 3 maybe because audiogd NOS7 USB design doesn't take 5volt power from the usb cable instead it use its own big R2R Power supply inside)*
 with F1 The Different is instantly.
 When you put f1 vs nos 7 usb . so much different ,not subtle, very clear the improvement f1 make to nos 7,
*Instantly Can Heard The Change!*
  
  
*Final Conclusion *
*from centrance,aune to audiogd nos 7 dac i have tested with f1 all are very good. *
*this little device can be a ddc of the year . thanks again for rb2013 the first tester!*


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Just be careful in there - the adjustment has to be done HOT - LETHAL VOLTAGES.




Two questions? I've not been on this thread for many weeks. Where is a goodly link to the Paul McGowan video that is mentioned. It's a dead link. 

And second, why would you adjust a linear psu when it's hot? Why not adjust the screw then turn it on, take a measurement, turn off and adjust again. Wouldn't this be safer? At least this is how I adjusted the Teradak dc30w when I had it. I'm not keen on playing with live voltages so take a few extra steps of precaution to prevent death. I don't like living on the edge so much I suppose.  lol


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> Wow, the "Super PS Audio" version of these LAN extender things is over $300? I thought this was supposed to be an inexpensive alternative to products like the Intona! Glad that rb2013 has volunteered to be the guinea pig / wallet donor.
> 
> 
> After seeing this mentioned, I asked the seller on Aliexpress and they said it will come as pictured (with the pins soldered on). Hopefully they're telling the truth.


 

 Well it's actually $470 but for the LAN version - the Intona does not give your USB full 1GB LAN access - nor WiFi capabilites.  The Intona has some dirty el cheapo SiTIme clocks - as it must reclock the USB stream.  The Advantage to the Ethernet to USB solution to galvanic isolation - no dirty clocks in the way!  It appears the TCP/IP protocol of Ethernet needs no clocking for transmission.
  
 Now the $137 nonLAN Ethernet to USB Startech - may just be all that's needed in a dedicated situation.  That would be a huge cost and maybe theoretical advantage over the $260 Intona.
  
 Now there is a $85 Ethernet to USB available - but the question is it's speed capabilites - in the Amazon ad it says to High Speed USB 2.0, but in the Ebay ad only USB 1.1 - are they different units internally?  They are offered by the same seller and externally look the same.  The Ebay one is $37.
  
 Longren emailed this message on Ebay


> dear friend
> noted , its ok to cancle the order .
> we have USB 2.0 extender i will send you spec by mail, we are manufacture in extension field more than 10 years
> pls check mail later


 
  
 And I found this one on Amazon for $63 that states it does High Speed USB 2.0 - nonLAN:

 http://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-4-Port-Extender-Ethernet-GUCE64/dp/B013VP3372/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1461851822&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=4+Port+USB+Over+Cat5+5e+6+RJ45+LAN+Ethernet+Extender+Extension+Adapter+Repeater
  
 IOGEAR USB 2.0 4-Port 164' USB Extender Over Cat5/Cat5e/Cat6 Ethernet Cable (GUCE64) 


 by Iogear

 _4 out of 5 stars_  3 customer reviews

  
Price:$63.99 & *FREE Shipping*. Details
 

 Only 2 left in stock (more on the way).


   Want it tomorrow, April 29? Order within *9 hrs 45 mins* and choose *One-Day Shipping* at checkout. Details





 Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.

 
Extend four USB 2.0 or USB 1.1 devices up to 164 feet (50 meters) over Cat5, Cat5e or Cat6 Ethernet cable
USB 2.0 High Speed (480Mbps), backwards compatible with USB 1.1 Full Speed (12Mbps)
Built-in hub to connect up to 4 USB 2.0 or USB 1.1 devices
Support suspend / resume detection
Plug-n-Play - no driver required
Power supply included
TAA compliant
 



 I will order it as well after testing the two StarTechs


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> update  final test
> F1 Test With Audio GD NOS 7
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!  Great feedback - I completely agree.

 The added detail of the F-1 can sound a little etched on some recordings - I had good luck in removing that with my modded JB VBUS blocker.  The F-1 continues to improves past 200 hrs - so it may settle in some more.

 Cheers!





 
  
 PS YES - I vote the F-1 for DDC of the year! - best I have heard by a long mile


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Two questions? I've not been on this thread for many weeks. Where is a goodly link to the Paul McGowan video that is mentioned. It's a dead link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 When I say HOT it means plugged in and powered up - not burning up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I like living on the edge...'In the Danger Zone'...


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> Did a faceoff last night - the X-1 is very, very good - but the F-1 is better.
> 
> Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - like when you see charts with 1990 dollars - or what ever reference point is chosen - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
> 
> ...


 
 Repost - F-1 DDC of the decade!


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif  ....
> Now the* $137 nonLAN Ethernet to USB Startech *- may just be all that's needed in a dedicated situation.
> That would be a huge cost and maybe theoretical advantage over the $260 Intona....
> I will order it as well after testing the two StarTechs


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot for the very interesting information.
 Sorry if i missed it but could you tell me *the exact Startech model you are referring to  ?  *
 I do not have need of usb over lan so this model could be just perfect for me and i guess also cheaper.
 Thanks a lot again for all your kind disclosing of valuable information.
 Regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! thanks a lot for the very interesting information.
> Sorry if i missed it but could you tell me *the exact Startech model you are referring to  ?  *
> I do not have need of usb over lan so this model could be just perfect for me and i guess also cheaper.
> Thanks a lot again for all your kind disclosing of valuable information.
> Regards, gino


 

 Gino - hold off until I test these.  I'm ordering off Amazon - so easy returns.
  
 The $63 IO Gear I just posted this morning - may be all that's needed.


----------



## rb2013

Ok folks I'm out of here for now...


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Gino - hold off until I test these.  I'm ordering off Amazon - so easy returns.
> The $63 IO Gear I just posted this morning - may be all that's needed.


 
  
 Thank you !!!  i have to admit it ... the Mr. McGowan video has excited me a lot indeed.
 Is it the case to open a specific thread maybe ?  the F1 deserves a place by itself
 Thanks a lot again !!!!
 Kind regards, gino


----------



## bimmer100

ginetto61 said:


> Thank you !!!  i have to admit it ... the Mr. McGowan video has excited me a lot indeed.
> Is it the case to open a specific thread maybe ?  the F1 deserves a place by itself
> Thanks a lot again !!!!
> Kind regards, gino


 
 could you please share a link? the one I had is dead. 
  
 thank you btw.


----------



## ginetto61

bimmer100 said:


> could you please share a link? the one I had is dead.
> 
> thank you btw.


 
  
 Hi !  this is the video
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
  
 bye, gino


----------



## bimmer100

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !  this is the video
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
> 
> bye, gino


 
  
  
 super cool. I'm wondering why ethernet hasn't been the standard way to transport audio in the first place. 
  
 It reminds me of something from www.minidsp.com
  
 they have similar devices, and wouldn't be surprised if they are working together to make a product. Maybe not.
  
 But the ethernet streaming isn't entirely a new thing.  These ethernet streamers are available from minidsp and directly hookup to i2s.
  
 They technically are the best way to stream audio. DO away USB entirely.  
  
 I would love to try these out.
  
 And this product from PSaudio would be great for those who want to have a plug and play option. Albeit there is a small chain of usb still in the mix, so other than that, i'd love to hear it once it comes out.


----------



## rb2013

Ok thread reset:
  
 Quote:


hugoboss said:


> update  final test
> F1 Test With Audio GD NOS 7
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> Well it's actually $470 but for the LAN version - the Intona does not give your USB full 1GB LAN access - nor WiFi capabilites.  The Intona has some dirty el cheapo SiTIme clocks - as it must reclock the USB stream.  The Advantage to the Ethernet to USB solution to galvanic isolation - no dirty clocks in the way!  It appears the TCP/IP protocol of Ethernet needs no clocking for transmission.
> 
> Now the $137 nonLAN Ethernet to USB Startech - may just be all that's needed in a dedicated situation.  That would be a huge cost and maybe theoretical advantage over the $260 Intona.
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> Did a faceoff last night - the X-1 is very, very good - but the F-1 is better.
> 
> Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - like when you see charts with 1990 dollars - or what ever reference point is chosen - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

Interesting post from AA on testing these Ethernet USB extenders for galvanic isolation:


> Ethernet USB Extenders don't necessarily offer USB Isolation properties. Good ones will. Similarly an inexpensive Ethernet USB Extender is unlikely to provide protocol translation but is probably just doing signal level conditioning. Not that protocol translation is necessary in order to achieve the benefits of isolation and signal conditioning... think Regen, Intona, etc.
> 
> USB 2 "speed" is not the issue here so you can still experiment with your entry level Ethernet USB Extender if you're willing to. Cable it up and plug in your DAC. Does it play music? Perhaps not well at hi-res rates but does it play basic 44/16 PCM? No harm in playing around with your Extenders, point to point. But if it works, that does not mean it is providing any isolation benefit.
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

More interesting stuff from AA:


> Think of it this way. There is a sender and a receiver. The (USB powered) sender takes the USB signal and converts it from powered USB to the unpowered OSI model TCP/IP packet delivery protocol. Then there is an (ac-Powered, 5v DC output) Receiver on the other end that converts the TCP/IP protocol to an isolated, cleaner, "new" USB signal.
> After that, one can add their USB to SPDIF converter, - or plug directly into their USB DAC.
> The advantage to this, besides getting a "new," purer, isolated, USB signal, - is that it can be plugged into any RJ45 port on your network: so you can move your DAC/stereo easily all around the home, or keep your computer in your basement, - or in your attic, - (where it belongs).
> Those other devices, are more like USB extenders, that change/convert the cabling to the better separated individual strands of RJ45 cable, but still keep the USB signal intact with power, to extend it. These do not have the bandwidth of the former.
> ...


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Interesting post from AA on testing these Ethernet USB extenders for galvanic isolation:


 
  
 I think that post is also using the word "Ethernet" to describe extenders that just extend USB over "Ethernet" cables - not an extender that has to adhere to the Ethernet standard and transmits just the data over standard 10/100 or GigE networks. 
  
 It's unfortunate that the marketing copy for these products isn't more clear about that, as it can be confusing for someone who isn't familiar with the difference. Despite the warning sticker on the Extron extender that you showed the other day, in many cases people tend to plug things in first and read the warning later.  Heh


----------



## joe

Guys -- I've removed some argumentative posts. Let's move on.


----------



## mhamel

Quick update on the F1
  
 Almost 6 days in and zero sync issues/disconnects. Even if it sounded exactly the same as the built-in USB on my DAC, that would make me happy enough to have bought one.  
  
 At this point I think it has around 130 hours on it, playing almost continuously. I've stopped bothering with A/B against the DAC's built-in USB for the most part, the F-1 is sticking around. My earlier impressions continue to hold - everything seems a bit more dynamic and vibrant. 
  
 I swapped some new tubes into my main preamp this morning, so I'm expecting any big changes in sound over the next few days are going to come from the tubes as they settle in more so than the F-1.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Quick update on the F1
> 
> Almost 6 days in and zero sync issues/disconnects. Even if it sounded exactly the same as the built-in USB on my DAC, that would make me happy enough to have bought one.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!  I finally got my third F-1 from Shenzen.  Noticible improvement over the X-1 in my office system.
  
 Yes I agree on the dynamics increase - horns are just amazing.   Listening to Bruce Springsteen last night 'Greetings from Asbury Park' 'Darkness on the Edge of Town' , 'The Wild, the Innocent and the E Street Shuffle'.  The horns just jump - so real.  Pretty awesome from these 40yr old redbook files


----------



## prot

bimmer100 said:


> super cool. I'm wondering why ethernet hasn't been the standard way to transport audio in the first place.
> 
> It reminds me of something from www.minidsp.com
> 
> ...


The 'why not ethernet' question is something that I'm asking around for a few years already. Apparently there are a few net-audio protocols in the pro-world and last time I checked a standard was in the works. IIRC some swiss company did realease a prosumer network Dac not long ago .. about $10K though, not something that anyone can easily try.


----------



## rb2013

From AA:


> I posted this pic, only to illustrate that this is a BAD device and does not do one may want, and why these "cheaper" devices are not good.
> 
> "Don't connect to your LAN"
> 
> ...


 
 Now this is interesting - so the question is do the non-LAN Ethernet USB extenders do TCP/IP conversion? 
  
 I would think they do - but maybe not in a proper fashion that would not interfer with other TCP/IP traffic on a shared LAN.  Remeber the post about
  
 AES 67 protocal for Audio-IP devices:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67
  


> *AES67* is a standard for audio-over-IP interoperability. The standard was developed by the Audio Engineering Society and published in September 2013.[1][2][3][4][5] It is a layer 3 protocol suite based on existing standards and is designed to allow interoperability between various IP-based audio networking systems such as RAVENNA, Livewire, Q-LAN and Dante. It also identifies commonalities with Audio Video Bridging (AVB) and documents AVB interoperability scenarios.[6][7] The standard has been implemented by Axia,[8] Wheatstone,[9] Riedel,[10] Coveloz Technologies[11] and ALC NetworX[12] and is supported by RAVENNA-enabled devices under its AES67 Operational Profile.[13] Audinate,[14][15][16][17][18] QSC,[19][20] Archwave,[21] Digigram[22] and Wheatstone[23] have announced plans to implement the standard.
> 
> AES67 promises interoperability between previously competing audio-over-IP systems[24] and long-term network interoperation between systems.[25]
> 
> ...


 
  
 So maybe these devices are not conducting power over the CAT5/6 cable - but will scramble the Eithernet switches with 'bad' IP addresses.  The non-LAN devices have power ports on the reciever ends just like the LAN ones.  That would indicate no electrical activity on the CAT5/6 cable.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> The 'why not ethernet' question is something that I'm asking around for a few years already. Apparently there are a few net-audio protocols in the pro-world and last time I checked a standard was in the works. IIRC some swiss company did realease a prosumer network Dac not long ago .. about $10K though, not something that anyone can easily try.


 

 Yes AES67 which is very recent - 2013 - and Thunderbolt 2 & 3 will work on these connections.  The problem before was compatibility - that has now been solved.
  
 I bet the PS Audio device likey the same as the 1GB LAN Startech - have a reprogamming of the ASIC for this compatibility.


----------



## prot

Found that thing .. they call it a "network attached dac"
http://nadac.merging.com


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Found that thing .. they call it a "network attached dac"
> http://nadac.merging.com


 

 Well ability to use a USB device across a LAN is really a breakthrough.  There is a huge intersection occurring with Eithernet/Thunderbolt and now USB.  This is really momentous for the here and now and the future.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806121/thunderbolt-3-for-audio-is-this-the-next-computer-audio-standard/15
  
 What has me so excited is I had just started the 'Thunderbolt 3 for Audio'  thread - and so saw this that lead me to AES67:
  
http://www.audiomediainternational.com/recording/feature-investigating-interface-protocols/04655
  
 Interesting on a couple of scores
 1)  a potential new DDC avenue Thunderbolt 2 & 3 (PCIe ext)


> Roger Robindore, director of product evangelism at Apogee Electronics, agrees with the aforementioned advantages of Thunderbolt. “It’s built on a PCIe backbone, and this has always been the best way to connect audio interfaces to computers where high bandwidth and low latency are required. *One of the PCIe protocol’s most important features is direct memory access (DMA), a function whereby the PCIe peripheral – in this case, the audio interface – can send and receive data directly with the computer’s memory, with little or no involvement of the computer’s CPU*,” he notes. “This direct data connection is one of the primary reasons that Thunderbolt has such low latency and rock solid stability.”​


 
  
 2) of course the LAN convenience and compatibility


> One connection protocol that is ubiquitous on both Apple- and Windows-based machines is Ethernet. Currently mainly in use for distributed audio and large-scale networked systems, the protocol has been championed by Merging Technologies. “There are a number of audio-over-IP protocols now established in the pro-audio market that use Ethernet as the connection – the main players being Ravenna, Dante and Livewire,” details Paul Mortimer, managing director of Merging’s UK distributor eMerging. “Compatible devices can be connected using a simple point-to-point connection or via an existing standard IT network infrastructure.​ “The main advantages of Ethernet-based formats are the ability to run much longer distances between devices; being able to take audio signals from one source and route to many destinations; and sample accurate clocking from one master device on the network. Thunderbolt 2 and USB 3 offer the ability to connect to Ethernet, so would also be compatible with networked audio devices. *With the introduction of AES67, all of these audio-over-IP formats will talk to each other, so enabling one harmonious compatible format.”*​


 
 A day later Paul's video pops up!  Eureka!  USB can join the fun - this opens up a whole lot of devices to this LAN party.
  
 Now the kill shot was Paul's claim for major sonic improvements from this 1GB LAN USB extender - that we will have to hear to believe.
  
 Could it be that the next big connector on the backs of DAC's and DDC's will be USB-C?  TB3, USB3.1 and now Ethernet LAN compatible.  A whole new paradigm.
  
 Add to the ability as Paul claims to easily add a $49 WiFi Ethernet box in the line to extend this capability cable-less - very impressive.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> From AA:
> Now this is interesting - so the question is do the non-LAN Ethernet USB extenders do TCP/IP conversion?
> 
> I would think they do - but maybe not in a proper fashion that would not interfer with other TCP/IP traffic on a shared LAN.  Remeber the post about
> ...


 
  
 There's no reason they would to TCP/IP if they're not part of a network - they would just transmit the USB signal over twisted pair cabling.
  
 The power on the receiving end does not necessarily indicate that there is no power transmitting over the Cat5/6 cable. It could mean that they need something other than the supplied USB power to run the receiver and power it's electronics.


----------



## mhamel

prot said:


> The 'why not ethernet' question is something that I'm asking around for a few years already. Apparently there are a few net-audio protocols in the pro-world and last time I checked a standard was in the works. IIRC some swiss company did realease a prosumer network Dac not long ago .. about $10K though, not something that anyone can easily try.


 
  
 http://voxcaliber.com/is-dante-the-future-no-64-channel-digital-audio-over-ethernet-is-already-here/
  
 Older article, but still interesting. I also came across this - which is only shown feeding their own products, but if it's outputting AES I would think it could feed a DAC.
  
 https://www.k-array.com/en/kdante.html#
  
 -- Edit - looks like it only supports 24/96 max for that KDante bridge.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> There's no reason they would to TCP/IP if they're not part of a network - they would just transmit the USB signal over twisted pair cabling.
> 
> The power on the receiving end does not necessarily indicate that there is no power transmitting over the Cat5/6 cable. It could mean that they need something other than the supplied USB power to run the receiver and power it's electronics.


 

 I see - well then that is a major distinction.  Then this new LAN capatible ASIC is the game changer - not cheap though.
  
 So you think the medical GI will work on the nonLAN potentially USB ethernet extenders - seems like it wouldn't.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> I see - well then that is a major distinction.  Then this new LAN capatible ASIC is the game changer - not cheap though.
> 
> So you think the medical GI will work on the nonLAN potentially USB ethernet extenders - seems like it wouldn't.


 
  
 The ASIC is just an application specific chip that handles the functions of the device. The Startech appears to be the same device as the OEM device that PS Audio is using as well, so it should handle audio.
  
 Yeah, like I had mentioned, since the non-Ethernet devices can transmit / receive in whatever format they'd like over the pairs in the cable, it is likely that the isolation device not only won't work, but could be damaged. Personally I'd be hesitant to plug it into the non-network extender without understanding how the extender is using the lines and how the isolation box is isolating them.


----------



## mhamel

mhamel said:


> http://voxcaliber.com/is-dante-the-future-no-64-channel-digital-audio-over-ethernet-is-already-here/
> 
> Older article, but still interesting. I also came across this - which is only shown feeding their own products, but if it's outputting AES I would think it could feed a DAC.
> 
> ...


 
  
 From the first post - no hardware required on the computer to send the audio channels Ethernet using Dante - just a driver...  it looks like since that article was written, the driver has been updated to support 24/192, and it's certainly cheap enough. $29.99 or $3.95 for a temporary license to test.  It just needs the hardware on the other end to bridge it to AES.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> http://voxcaliber.com/is-dante-the-future-no-64-channel-digital-audio-over-ethernet-is-already-here/
> 
> Older article, but still interesting. I also came across this - which is only shown feeding their own products, but if it's outputting AES I would think it could feed a DAC.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes and it appears a proprietary protocol.   So the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN could potentially do 384K over a LAN.  Too bad I don't have a LAN to test that on.  The one at work is highly secured and needs legal approval to override the safety protections (this is mentioned in the ICRON manual as high traffic or unregistered devices may be blocked by the switchbox).


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> The ASIC is just an application specific chip that handles the functions of the device. The Startech appears to be the same device as the OEM device that PS Audio is using as well, so it should handle audio.
> 
> Yeah, like I had mentioned, since the non-Ethernet devices can transmit / receive in whatever format they'd like over the pairs in the cable, it is likely that the isolation device not only won't work, but could be damaged. Personally I'd be hesitant to plug it into the non-network extender without understanding how the extender is using the lines and how the isolation box is isolating them.


 

 Funny in the Icron manual it says it can't do iso audio!  But i guess Async is OK.  Kinda makes sense since iso requires two way communication - not async - at least not error control packet resend requests.  But this is way beyond me.
  
 Well I will test with my meter first for GI then if OK - will try the medical GI.  I paid $50 for it so not big loss.  The LAN version better have GI


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Found that thing .. they call it a "network attached dac"
> http://nadac.merging.com


 
 Very sweet piece of gear - $8900 - way ahead on the RAVENNA protocol
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/05/mergings-ethernet-nadac-impresses-at-munich-high-end-2015/
  


> Merging Technologies have been pro-audio operators for some time – they make the Pyramix workstations found in recording studios – but this year sees the Swiss company edging into the home audio space. Their NADAC’s main point of difference is a biggie: it doesn’t receive data via USB but uses Ethernet, which apparently offers far more accurate clocking capabilities when used in tandem with the Munich-developed RAVENNA network protocol. This ain’t no DLNA/UPnP cop out. Ethernet transmission also makes it useful for those needing to put some serious distance between DAC and host PC.​ Once connected to a network, the NADAC itself dictates data transmission rates instead of the computer. In other words data handling is asynchronous.​ All current digital audio format trends are met head on: PCM up to 384kHz, DXD, DSD64, DSD128, and DSD256. The business end of D/A conversion shows Merging Technologies’ roots: they’ve opted for an ESS’ 9008S chip.​


 
 Whoaa!


> Ethernet (RAVENNA/AES67) on RJ45 connector. Accepts 44.1kHz – 384kHz PCM, DXD, DSD 64, DSD128, DSD256
> Connects from the computer using standard ASIO on Windows and CoreAudio on Mac
> Allows cable runs up to 100m on a single Cat5e or Cat6 cable, with possible repeaters, hubs or switches
> Asynchronous communication. The MERGING+NADAC controls the rate at which the digital audio data is sent to the DAC, not the computer or the player
> ...


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Yes and it appears a proprietary protocol.   So the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN could potentially do 384K over a LAN.  Too bad I don't have a LAN to test that on.  The one at work is highly secured and needs legal approval to override the safety protections (this is mentioned in the ICRON manual as high traffic or unregistered devices may be blocked by the switchbox).


 
  
 Dante has quite a bit of support in the pro audio world. I need to do some research on the AES bridges and if I can find one that isn't ridiculously expensive I am going to give it a try.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Dante has quite a bit of support in the pro audio world. I need to do some research on the AES bridges and if I can find one that isn't ridiculously expensive I am going to give it a try.


 

 A lot of this tech is happening first in the proaudio world then filtering down - as per my last post on RAVENNA - with WIN ASIO drivers over ethernet!


----------



## rb2013

Maybe Ethernet (RAVENNA/AES67) will be the standard to replace USB/SPDIF/i2s...


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> From the first post - no hardware required on the computer to send the audio channels Ethernet using Dante - just a driver...  it looks like since that article was written, the driver has been updated to support 24/192, and it's certainly cheap enough. $29.99 or $3.95 for a temporary license to test.  It just needs the hardware on the other end to bridge it to AES.


 

 Boy that would be a great end run!  WIN ASIO!  What kind of AES card on the other end I wonder?  What does a permanent liscence  cost?
  


> You can run audio from a remote mic pre – or several connected through a router – to your computer 100 meters away. Its currently limited to 32-bit operating systems, but you can purchase a copy from their website now, or a 7-day trial to test for $7. It connects to ASIO (Windows) or Core Audio (Mac OS X) applications, which means every pro app should work. Supported sample rates are listed as 48k and 96k, though they have a hardware card that goes from 44.1k to 192k so maybe that is old information. A free app called Dante Controller oversees your audio routing on the network.


----------



## sbgk

rb2013 said:


>


 
 did you see the J Swenson post on CA about the F-1, didn't think the xmos chip was adding much, thought it was mainly due to the fpga implementation. Your observation that the x1 is very good means that the xmos chip must be doing something good.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/xmos-xu208-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-bridge-28366/#post536601
  
 He's also posting in the Lan rover thread


----------



## prot

mhamel said:


> http://voxcaliber.com/is-dante-the-future-no-64-channel-digital-audio-over-ethernet-is-already-here/
> 
> Older article, but still interesting. I also came across this - which is only shown feeding their own products, but if it's outputting AES I would think it could feed a DAC.
> 
> ...




Ethernet audio seems to have a bit of momentum. And it's prolly the right way, especially for big studios. Not sure what that Dante is but the aes67 standard looks good to me. And you're right, no need for tcp, the ip level should be enough (in theory you can go even lower in the newtork stack but cant use switches&co anymore). 
And btw, not sure exactly how it works but this looks like an interesting & cheap device https://www.minidsp.com/products/network-audio/avb-dg


----------



## jfrocke

rb2013 said:


> No not really - the F-1 is plug and play ready for SPDIF - just needs a case.  I ordered one on Ebay for $9, I have mine now mounted in a case left over from another project.



 

Did you ever receive your cases? If so, which one is the better fit?


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> did you see the J Swenson post on CA about the F-1, didn't think the xmos chip was adding much, thought it was mainly due to the fpga implementation. Your observation that the x1 is very good means that the xmos chip must be doing something good.
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/xmos-xu208-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-bridge-28366/#post536601
> 
> He's also posting in the Lan rover thread


 

 Thanks for that - and the one issue with the U8 chips - overheating.  To the point that Melodious and Breeze had to add heat sinks.  This, I believe was a major source of clicking an popping and crashes on the 1st MX-U8 units.
  
 So far the XU208's have been rock solid - shockingly so.
  
 Breeze Audio XMOS U8 - DU-U8:

  
  
  
 So it appears these U8 500 MIPS chips were being overloaded.
  
 And that would explain the SQ improvements
  
 Now DIYinHK commented:


> 1)The latest xmos xCORE-200 includes unique hardware divider and it is used to generate bit-clock from master clock directly.


 
 So it appears there were some other improvements besides faster speed.


----------



## rb2013

jfrocke said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > No not really - the F-1 is plug and play ready for SPDIF - just needs a case.  I ordered one on Ebay for $9, I have mine now mounted in a case left over from another project.
> ...


 

 So far a near perfect fit.  It's just making a hole large enough for the spdif and usb is not easy without bending the alumimum plate.  Slides right into slots on the inside of the case - no mounting needed.
  
 I have a few more coming on the slow boat from China
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/161414428256?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Ethernet audio seems to have a bit of momentum. And it's prolly the right way, especially for big studios. Not sure what that Dante is but the aes67 standard looks good to me. And you're right, no need for tcp, the ip level should be enough (in theory you can go even lower in the newtork stack but cant use switches&co anymore).
> And btw, not sure exactly how it works but this looks like an interesting & cheap device https://www.minidsp.com/products/network-audio/avb-dg


 

 That device does not do USB and so no WIN ASIO or MAC compatablity  - back to the UPnp/DLNA deal


----------



## mhamel

prot said:


> Ethernet audio seems to have a bit of momentum. And it's prolly the right way, especially for big studios. Not sure what that Dante is but the aes67 standard looks good to me. And you're right, no need for tcp, the ip level should be enough (in theory you can go even lower in the newtork stack but cant use switches&co anymore).
> And btw, not sure exactly how it works but this looks like an interesting & cheap device https://www.minidsp.com/products/network-audio/avb-dg


 
  
 https://www.audinate.com/about/news-activity/press/audinate-announces-availability-firmware-update-support-aes67   Date + aes67.


----------



## rb2013

Interesting quote from CA


> Yes, the improved signal integrity and impedance match from a REGEN afterwards should still benefit.
> I know a great deal more about this tech (ICRON's) and the implementations than I have time to write about right now, so I may share more later on. Don't want to step on PSA's toes at all as I think what they are doing (making people aware of an alternate solution) is great. To be clear though, ICRON introduced this piece in May 2013, so it is not brand new. It has just stayed way under the radar.
> Cheers,
> --Alex C.


 
 Mine will be here tomorrow...
  
 More from CA forum
  


> Like the traditional extender from Icron, the CAT5e cable was a classic point to point type, the protocol to extend USB2 could not be routable over switches. This is what I have for quite some time now using dedicated Cat5e cable, and helps with the Intona's often fickle handshaking processes.
> Instead of Cat 5e, it's possible to use Fibre Optic cabling to achieve isolation, but the modules attract a 30-45% price premium over the Cat5e versions.
> 
> For the LanRover, and the Star Tech OEM product, it appears to code the USB in Ethernet packets or whatever magik they use in the transmitter, and the receiver picks up the same "encoded" message at the other end, like a typical (and reliable) broadcast method. In this case, it is necessary to have the two units, and for a home LAN is certainly workable if network cabling or Wi-fi exists.
> ...


----------



## rb2013

More from the CA thread (but a lot of misinformation there as well - I'm ignoring those)
  


> Well the goal in commercial applications isn't networking & linking two computers. The goal is to extend the distance between USB peripheral devices. (Like USB cameras between conference rooms on different floors of large organizations). Take a USB device, (signal), convert it to TCP/IP, - broadcast it as TCP/IP over a great distance, (there are also fiber USB converters), build a new USB signal at the other end, - and plug into the PC.
> In audio, the USB DAC is similar to a USB peripheral like a camera. Only it requires so much more, and a much better USB signal. Stripping away the power from the USB, converting the signal to the TCP/IP protocol, - then rebuilding the now isolated, new, USB signal is going to much better even for a short run of USB that normally would carry all of that "pollution" from a computer's USB bus.


 
   
 JS has it right - naturally
 Quote:


> *JohnSwenson*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The discussion moves back to NAA UPnP is better - but I think many lose sight of what Paul mentions - UPnP's bauky, problematic nature - and not everyone wants to give up their favorite player and switch to Roon.  Me for one - no way no how...
  
 I imagine the AES67 stuff we've been talking about for awhile will enter the discussion there - as it is no longer vaporware - thanks to a few of these companies like Merging Tech and RAVENNA


----------



## rb2013

Called it just posted by Alex from Uptone:


> Can you be more specific? Are you referring to DLNA, AES67, or other audio-over-IP set ups? These all have their own issues, chief among them being software player restrictions.
> 
> The ICRON ExtremeUSB code for their extenders and LAN products is actually quite good--no drivers are required and some of the versions are capable enough (assuming you have a gigabit switch to handle the overhead and QOS) to handle isochronous audio. Despite some misinformation floating out there, none of the competitors come close to what ICRON has done (their whole company is built around this stuff).
> 
> ...


 
 Not with RAVEENA/AES67!  Does ASIO WIndows  and Mike's Audinate and Dante posts...game is moving at lightspeed.  Not calling UpNP deadman walking yet - but he's nearing the cliff's edge...


----------



## rb2013

Sorry for all this OT stuff - tomorrow I will hear the Startech LAN deal and will see what's up SQ wise.  I'll then start a new thread...
  
 http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/11/4/aes67-what-is-it-and-why-should-you-care
  


> What Is AES67?
> It is an interoperability standard
> It is for audio transport only
> It isn't a complete system. AES 67 is a feature or option in a wider audio system which can fulfil other tasks such as routing, monitoring, discovery or system control.
> ...


----------



## rb2013

Could this be the ONE - Focusrite RedNet D16 AES - AES67 Ethernet to AES.  ASIO drivers - YES!
  
 https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-d16-aes
  
 http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/11/4/aes67-what-is-it-and-why-should-you-care
  


> There are many things which make AES67 exciting. One of the most significant is that it is very limited in scope. The two technologies which have received the most attention on the blog are *Dante, as implemented by Focusrite in their RedNet systems*, and AVB which Avid are using in their S3L live sound system. The biggest differences between these two systems are that Dante is proprietary and operates on layer 3 of the OSI 7 layer model. AVB is an open set of standards and it operates on Layer 2. While AVB is a fantastic technology, it is broad in scope and its future definitely lies in more areas than just pro audio. The biggest limitation on its uptake in pro audio is probably the relative indifference end users have to which technology they use combined with the fact that Ethernet switches used on an AVB network have to have specific AVB features, ruling out old or non-AVB switches. AES67 is an interoperable stream with moderate latency, each data packet contains roughly a millisecond of audio and the total latency is 6ms, though lower and higher latencies are available as an option. It supports both multicasting and unicasting - multicasting makes all streams available everywhere but requires good quality switches. Unicasting is useful for point to point scenarios over distance where the quality of switches can't be guaranteed. *AES67 speakers are coming, the Genelec 4020A prototype has AES67/Ravenna inputs eliminating the need for any extra network node/AD-DA hardware. Just plug the RJ45 into the back of the speaker *- install designers will love that! Just as important as what AES67 does is what it doesn't do. It offers no routing and control protocols, no online metering or remote control and no easy web GUI management.


 
  


> About RedNet RedNet is Focusrite’s range of modular audio over IP interfaces that harnesses the power of Audinate’s tried and tested Dante digital audio networking protocol to bring studio quality sound to any modern audio application.
> Designed with multiple audio applications in mind – from live sound to multi-room recording studios, from houses of worship to audio distribution installations, and from post-production to broadcast environments and anything in between – RedNet provides a comprehensive range of Dante-enabled audio interfaces that can be used to expand I/O channel count, interface digital components, and/or bridge between Pro Tools|HD, MADI or AES environments and a Dante audio network.
> Due to their modular design, RedNet units can be integrated into any existing Dante eco-system, or can be pieced together to form a brand new digital audio network.
> Incorporating Focusrite’s most advanced AD/DA conversion to date, rock-stable JetPLL clocking and premium multi-layer board circuitry, RedNet demonstrates Focusrite's philosophy that ‘Sound is Everything’. With every design detail meticulously engineered, RedNet provides some of the most transparent and pristine audio quality available – with the added benefit of Dante's revolutionary networking capabilities.


 


> That’s just one of the promises of RedNet, the professional audio networking system from Focusrite. RedNet couples high-quality audio
> interfaces – for mic, line and instrument inputs and much more – with standard Ethernet cabling and Gigabit Ethernet switches, to
> let you place your inputs and outputs simply, effi ciently and economically, where they need to be, with the superb, world-leading quality and
> precision audio performance you have come toexpect from Focusrite.
> ...


 
  
 $800 RedNet3 - Works with Dante virtual soundcard - Windows ASIO -
 https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-3
  


> Overview
> 
> 
> RedNet 3 interfaces your existing digital audio systems and components to the RedNet network, with up to 32 inputs and outputs and full software remote control. The unit includes support for AES/EBU, S/PDIF and ADAT (16 ADAT optical ports support 32 digital channels in and out – even at 96kHz, with S-MUX2) digital audio formats and allows the RedNet system to be synchronised to incoming signal clock or a word clock source.


 
 https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard
  
 Dante virtual soundcard permanent license $29


----------



## rb2013

I'd say external input i2s rj-45 is a goner...to be replaced by AES67/Ethernet (Dante ASIO and Mac compatible) rj-45 (but still using i2s internally).
  
 Ah - add USB DAC input to that goner list...


----------



## rb2013

I'm contacting Focusrite tonight by email - suggesting they build a AES67/Ethernet RJ45 to SPDIF and/or AES simple DDC -
  
 they can call it the RB2013RED!


----------



## Albrecht

Ha!
  
 That's awesome.
  
 This thing looks really cool.....


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> This is a huge difference!  The Slimdvices had lousy clocks needed and were modded to get any where decent SQ.
> 
> What this 1GB Ethernet LAN USB extenders do is monumental!  First IF Paul McGowen's comments about SQ improvements to normal USB audio are true this is a sea change amongst tidal waves already.  The reason - is SYNERGIES! First take the ubiquitous USB (MAC, WIN or LINUX) audio of today's computerland - link it (and refine it) with near sota Hi Fidelity - and it's plug and play nature - offering thousands of DDC/DAC solutions from $40 to $80,000.  Now add on top the latest performance enhancers for USB like the Regen, Recovery, and iPurifier2 - to achieve remarkable SQ improvements.  And wrap this all in a LAN/WiFI  friendly Audio IP connectivity (toss in galvanic isolation) - and well this is what is so exciting about what has happened here on this thread today.


 
  
 I was talking that "keeping PC in basement" is nothing new with LanRover.
 But...
 Yes, squeezebox touch is old (2010), not designed for audiophile audio, just for consumer market but at the time was better then some hi-end cd transport.
 Yes, sure, its clocks aren't the best (there were a few after market specialists to change it) but what's the difference with PC/MAC? 
 Computers have even worse clocks and a lot more noise.
 With Squeezebox you have galvanic isolation, you can put your computer far from listening room thanks to ethernet connection (even in different country). You can power it from LPS, you can use coax or usb to ouput digital to DAC. And have freedom and convenience that foobar, jriver, aurvana never can give you (the all squeezebox environment is spectacular, nothing compare).
 The only (and only drawback) difference with PC is that you can't use special grade USB card like PPA or JCAT.
  
 And back to (non)LAN Ethernet to USB extenders.
 Cheap nonLAN Ethernet to USB extenders probably don't have galvanic isolation because it doesn't have to follow ethernet standard.
 Real LAN Ethernet to USB extenders like Icron RG2304GE-LAN that support audio can give us galvanic isolation from PC but what more? I don't think at the receiver side there are top grade clocks, reclockers, etc. for sending perfect usb signal to DAC. Because these are not needed for keyboards, printers and so on. And why we do not have care about usb cable to DAC? Maybe LanRover will have better receiver implementation for hi-fi audio. We'll see.
 Thanks to rb2013 we'll soon discover what is it worth


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Ha!
> 
> That's awesome.
> 
> This thing looks really cool.....


 

 I just downloaded the DANTE AES67 Ethernet ASIO driver - worked like the charm - came up in Foobar when I pulled in the ASIO.
  
 Easy Peasy - ASIO direct over Ethernet!


----------



## Albrecht

That above quote was me: trying to explain in more layman terms, - why the (cheaper) non-LAN-Gigabit ones aren't the same thing, - and how one achieves much more benefits by connecting up these things in the LAN, and the "conversion" to and from TCP/IP back to USB provides better isolation/regen
  
 For someone like me, - (who wants to stick with LMS/MiniMserver/Roon, - we need a NAA.
  
 For someone like you, - who wants to stick with FooBar running on a PC, - these things are AMAZING.
  
 My environment, (since 2003), has always been shared with my downstairs neighbor with a rather powerful MAC Server in the basement, a shared NAS in my place, - with several "endpoints" accessing: often at the same time. I am pretty well versed in Microsoft networking, but my downstairs is the one buying all the expensive "servers" in the basement.
  
 John, explained much better of course: and his points were similar, where the LAN-Gigabit one is the RIGHT one.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Albrecht

so the "endpoint" is the F-1?
  
 Perhaps I misunderstood, - but i thought that one needed a mindsp RJ45 to I2s installed in a DAC.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> I was talking that "keeping PC in basement" is nothing new with LanRover.
> But...
> Yes, squeezebox touch is old (2010), not designed for audiophile audio, just for consumer market but at the time was better then some hi-end cd transport.
> Yes, sure, its clocks aren't the best (there were a few after market specialists to change it) but what's the difference with PC/MAC?
> ...


 

 Well I guess that's the point - the TCP/IP protocol needs no clocks - just transformers.  Does this thing give the SQ improvements mentioned - will know tomorrow.
  
 Well Galvanic Isolation is here already  - in a somewhat flawed fashion (not just my opinion read @Superdad's comments about the Intona on the Regen thread) - but new and better ones will be coming along.
  
 Yes of course after the LAN converter - back to USB and all it's wonders and warts.
  
 But really after today I see all this stuff as mute - as just eliminate the middleman (USB) and  and for that matter (MAYBE) all these USB gizmos!!!  As for your SB - as you say no Jriver, Foobar, Aurvana - that's a no go for me.
  
 Direct AES67 Dante from your PC ethernet port straight to your DAC!  Use any player or PC/MAC/LINUS you please!  NO need for UpNP/DNLA!  Now right at this minute available! ASIO works like a charm!  LAN compatible!  WiFi compatible!  Of course the cheapest is the REDNET 3 at $899 - but that has a lot of pro audio features we don't need - so a 'consumer' audio DDC could be a cheap as an F-1  The RB2013RED!


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> so the "endpoint" is the F-1?
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstood, - but i thought that one needed a mindsp RJ45 to I2s installed in a DAC.


 

 No - just a a DDC that takes AES67 DANTE Ethernet (straight from your existing PC ethernet port) and outputs SPDIF (or i2s if that's your poison).  See my post above...it's here NOW, and it will be getting much, much cheaper...very soon.
  
 All you need is the $29 DANTE virtual sound card ASIO!  Just loaded on WIN7 machine works!  And is at home with the XMOS ASIO - just hop into Foobar and pick either.


----------



## rb2013

Too bad Amazon doesn't have the REDNET 3 or I would order one today...to give a try


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> All you need is the $29 DANTE virtual sound card ASIO!  Just loaded on WIN7 machine works!  And is at home with the XMOS ASIO - just hop into Foobar and pick either.


 
  
 OK, but what do you use to "translate" dante protocol from ethernet into DAC digital signal?


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> OK, but what do you use to "translate" dante protocol from ethernet to DAC digital singal?


 

 See my post - REDNET 3 right now - but very, very soon we will see consumer audio versions (like Focusrite did on their USB stuff - now $299)
  
 Remember AES67 is LAN approved and is the new Audio-IP std - (AES - stands for Audio Engineering Society) - see the stuff I posted on AES67 earlier today.
  
 Does it sound better then USB?  You bet!  Master clock can be shared and then used from the LAN!  Read the technical stuff Focusrite has and I post a bunch on my 'Thunderbolt 3 for Audio' thread.


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> Could this be the ONE - Focusrite RedNet D16 AES - AES67 Ethernet to AES.  ASIO drivers - YES!
> 
> https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-d16-aes
> 
> ...


 

 repost


----------



## rb2013

Oh and AES67 is open architechure - no licensing I'm aware of - maybe some kind os certifcation.
  
 Ethernet is also open I understand
  
 You can bet the boys in China will be all over this especially after today! (I know you're watching this blog)
  
 Maybe XMOS will develop a AES67 processor?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 OK, - I think that I got it, - finally. (and I do apologize for being slow off the mark).
  
 The RedNet 3 box is like a receiver that has the dedicated audio ethernet-like rj-45 "receiver" of the signal, and that converts it to what looks like SPDIF outs for the DAC...   right?
  
  
 There is also a PCI "NIC-like" card that goes into the PC. (Or, one can download a driver {Dante} to allow one to use one's current NIC, - built-in PC NIC card)?
  
  
 What is a DDC? In my world it stands for Digital Display Channel....
  
 Sorry for not getting this....


----------



## riffer

roger7 said:


> I was talking that "keeping PC in basement" is nothing new with LanRover.
> But...
> Yes, squeezebox touch is old (2010), not designed for audiophile audio, just for consumer market but at the time was better then some hi-end cd transport.
> Yes, sure, its clocks aren't the best (there were a few after market specialists to change it) but what's the difference with PC/MAC?
> ...


 
  
 I still use a Touch (Touch with EDO Mod>Gustard U12>Audio-gd Master 7 BNC).  Until I find a more user friendly interface, I will stick with it.
  
 Stereophile measured the Touch and the Transporter and the Touch did quite well, but the Transporter had less noise, not surprising given the power supplies.  The Transporter was "Class A", and I believe the Touch was "Class C', for what it's worth.
  
 I have to pull out my Stereophiles and see how the measurements compare to the Antipodes, a glorified Vortexbox.
  
 Back on topic.  I'm waiting on the new interface.  I prefer my BNC input to the Master 7, but I would also like an I2s one for hi-res.  A nice case and linear PSU would be nice as well.  The Gustard is definitely the weak chain in my system (But is still quite nice).


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, - I think that I got it, - finally. (and I do apologize for being slow off the mark).
> 
> ...


 

 Yes that's right now since AES67 is an open compatibility standard you should be able to use the DANTE ASIO with any other AES67 to AES/SPDIF converter.  Just input the IP address and away you go...

 PCIe cards lower latency to ridiculus low levels while processing a very large number of tracks -32 or more.  For normal 2 channel audio the DVS should be fine.
  
  
 PS Sorry DDC is for Digital Device Connector - formally refered to as a USB Bridge - but as you can see that is to narrow - with Thnuderbolt 2 and now AES67 Ethernet devices available.


----------



## rb2013

riffer said:


> I still use a Touch (Touch with EDO Mod>Gustard U12>Audio-gd Master 7 BNC).  Until I find a more user friendly interface, I will stick with it.
> 
> Stereophile measured the Touch and the Transporter and the Touch did quite well, but the Transporter had less noise, not surprising given the power supplies.  The Transporter was "Class A", and I believe the Touch was "Class C', for what it's worth.
> 
> ...


 

 You are right Transporter for it's time was excellent and had a neat UI
  
 But I found for large music collections too unwieldy


----------



## rb2013

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar13/articles/focusrite-rednet.htm
  


> The Dante technology has already been adopted by a significant number of pro-audio manufacturers including Allen & Heath, DiGiCo, Dolby, Dynacord, Electrovoice, JoeCo, Lab.Gruppen, Lake Processing, Lectrosonics, MC2 Audio, NTP technology, Peavey, Symetrix, Telex, Turbosound, XTA, Yamaha and, of course, Focusrite. Significantly, Audinate have made it clear that Dante will be fully 'AVB-compliant' when this international standard is finally ratified by the IEEE, guaranteeing long-term future compatibility.


 


> Rather than developing their own proprietary format, though, Focusrite have — very sensibly, in my view — employed the thoroughly proven Dante interface developed by Audinate in Australia...a Gigabit network — which is the format Focusrite have adopted — can accommodate up to 512 bi-directional 48kHz channels (256 at 96kHz). The total system latency is dependent on the complexity of the network, but is fixed once the network is established and is typically between 150us and 500us — yes, that's microseconds!


 


> The third alternative — albeit with slightly greater latency akin, to a typical Firewire interface — is to use Audinate's own DVS software (short for 'Dante Virtual Soundcard') to handle audio data connected via the computer's own Ethernet port. A single DVS license comes free with each RedNet I/O device, and additional licenses can be purchased from Audinate.
> Both the RedNet card and the DVS software are compatible with both Mac (OS 10.7 and later) and PC (Win 7 or later, 32- and 64-bit) platforms.


 


> Network Audio Interface Technology Most audio-over-Ethernet systems can be placed into one of three categories, defined by the complexity of the protocols employed. The simplest approach, called 'physical' or 'Layer 1' systems, include Aviom's A-net, the AES50 (superMAC) standard, and Riedel's Rocket system. These use standard Ethernet cabling and connectors but the bespoke 'media access control' protocols they use aren't compatible with conventional IP Ethernet systems. As a result, they require dedicated and completely independent network infrastructures which can only carry the audio data. In general, these systems are wired point-to-point, connecting a stage box directly to a console using a dedicated Cat-5 cable, for example.
> Moving up a level in complexity and compatibility, 'Data Link' or 'Layer 2' systems wrap the digital audio data into standard Ethernet data packets, which means they can operate within standard Ethernet networks (although dedicated audio-only networks may still be required to guarantee stable latencies and data capacities). Layer 2 systems include the AES51 format, Allen & Heath's ACE, Calrec's Hydra system, CobraNet, Digigram's Ethersound, and Roland's REAC format. Data can be routed and distributed through standard Ethernet switches, if necessary, allowing greater transmission path lengths and more flexible installation options.
> *Full 'Network' or 'Layer 3' systems comply totally with all IP standards and so are completely compatible with all standard networking systems (although most cannot be used over the Internet)*. The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) is working on international standards for the transport of audio and video over Ethernet within the layer 3 protocol, under the 'AVB' group, and this will probably become the 'industry standard' format in the near future. Current Layer 3 systems include ALC NetworX's Ravenna, Audinate's Dante, QSC Audio's Q-LAN, and Telos Axia's LiveWire.


 


> RedNet 3, $1499.99;


 
 Now down to $899, quiet a drop from the 2013 release price


----------



## rb2013

New RAVENNA Website!​ >>> RAVENNA AoIP networking has a new website  *RAVENNA & AES67* On September 11th, 2013, the AES has finally published the_ AES67-2013 standard for audio applications of networks - High-performance streaming audio-over-IP interoperability_. This White Paper describes why RAVENNA is already compatible with AES67 and what benefits RAVENNA can offer beyond.

 *AES67 - Standard for High-performance Streaming Audio-over-IP Interoperability* Presentation at NAB Broadcast Engineering Conference, April 2014



> As RAVENNA is continued to be an open technology development, ALC NetworX encourages any interested party to participate in the enhancement and evolution of its capabilities. ALC NetworX is also happy to assist interested manufacturers in implementing RAVENNA into their products, as only a diversified product support will pave the way for a broad market acceptance.


 
  
 http://ravenna.alcnetworx.com/infos-downloads/new-website.html


----------



## ccschua

the challenger to F-1 will be coming soon. Let's wait and see and this will be a close fight, I believe. may and june will be very exciting to watch.


----------



## sbgk

from my experience with ethernet and the squeezebox touch you still get cable affects and noise passing through the ethernet cable even though there is galvanic isolation, so it's just swapping one set of issues for another.


----------



## jfrocke

RB2013 - You posted links to two different metal cases and plastic cases.  Which is the one you find is a good fit and doesn't require screw mounting of the board?


----------



## mourip

ccschua said:


> the challenger to F-1 will be coming soon. Let's wait and see and this will be a close fight, I believe. may and june will be very exciting to watch.


 
  
 Are you referring to the SU-1?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> the challenger to F-1 will be coming soon. Let's wait and see and this will be a close fight, I believe. may and june will be very exciting to watch.


 
 Yes - I'm due to get one of the 1st ones - I returned my failed Pro3a a few weeks ago.  Curious to see if the Pro4a used the XU208 or XU216 - it should have NDK SD clocks and DIYinHK'a ultra low regulators - but no FPGA isolation like the F-1 and likely the SU-1.
  


sbgk said:


> from my experience with ethernet and the squeezebox touch you still get cable affects and noise passing through the ethernet cable even though there is galvanic isolation, so it's just swapping one set of issues for another.


 
 Well I'm not sure of the SB - doubt it's a TCP/IP protocol - so I guess it all depends on what's flowing through those copper CAT5/6 cables.  If as some propose that the Non-LAN USB extenders are - just passing a USB packet through the ethernet cable - I could see how that cable could effect the sound.  Now with a true layer 3 Audio-IP scheme, like AES67 or AVB not so much.
  


jfrocke said:


> RB2013 - You posted links to two different metal cases and plastic cases.  Which is the one you find is a good fit and doesn't require screw mounting of the board?


 
 This one - but it still needs holes drilled into the end plates. http://www.ebay.com/itm/161414428256?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  


mourip said:


> Are you referring to the SU-1?
> 
> Thanks.


 
 Both I believe the SU-1 in May and the DIYinHK DXIO Pro4a in June.


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Well I'm not sure of the SB - doubt it's a TCP/IP protocol - so I guess it all depends on what's flowing through those copper CAT5/6 cables.  If as some propose that the Non-LAN USB extenders are - just passing a USB packet through the ethernet cable - I could see how that cable could effect the sound.  Now with a true level 3 Audio-IP scheme, like AES67 or AVB not so much.


 
  
 SB has got a standard NIC (network interface controller - it's network card) built-in as any other computer. With standard TCP/IP protocol and galvanic isolation - as any other device on the ethernet network. SB has got also wifi card built-in if you don't like cables.
 Otherwise it couldn't be connected to ethernet network.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Ethernet audio seems to have a bit of momentum. And it's prolly the right way, especially for big studios. Not sure what that Dante is but the aes67 standard looks good to me. And you're right, no need for tcp, the ip level should be enough (in theory you can go even lower in the newtork stack but cant use switches&co anymore).
> And btw, not sure exactly how it works but this looks like an interesting & cheap device https://www.minidsp.com/products/network-audio/avb-dg


 

 Ok I see the MiniDSP device is to convert FROM ethernet to i2s at the DAC end.  But it is 'only AVB' compatible not AES67.  The AVB standard has yet to be set by IEEE as far as I can tell.
  
 Now from the RAVEENA website it is a AES67 std and will be compatible with AVB.  But I don't think it works necessarily in reverse.  But it is XMOS based! So a great start.
  
 Now all we need is a AES67 RJ45 to i2s on a XMOS (or another chip) and we are cooking with gas!  We have AES67 to spdif/aes - it would be nice to see a low cost XMOS solution there though.
  
 As I said I see the ext i2s on your DAC going away soon to be replaced by this...and maybe the USB DAC input as well...


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> SB has got a standard NIC (network interface controller - it's network card) built-in as any other computer. With standard TCP/IP protocol and galvanic isolation - as any other device on the ethernet network. SB has got also wifi card built-in if you don't like cables.
> Otherwise it couldn't be connected to ethernet network.


 

 Then the cable should make no difference - assuming it's true CAT5e to CAT6 std.
  
 Like saying 'My Tidal sounds different when the IP packets route through SF vs Utah'


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Then the cable should make no difference - assuming it's true CAT5e to CAT6 std.
> 
> Like saying 'My Tidal sounds different when the IP packets route through SF vs Utah'


 
 Yes, ethernet cables make no difference especially that all packets have to go through at least one switch in LAN. 
 And I think it's hard to find cables below 5e standard because it's the most popular now.
 And if you unplug ethernet cable from SB it will be playing for several dozen seconds depends on the file quality - thanks to its buffer


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Yes, ethernet cables make no difference especially that all packets have to go through at least one switch in LAN.
> And I think it's hard to find cables below 5e standard because it's the most popular now.
> And if you unplug ethernet cable from SB it will be playing for several dozen seconds depends on the file quality - thanks to its buffer


 

 That's what I think too - but OP said:


> from my experience with ethernet and *the squeezebox touch you still get cable affects and noise passing through the ethernet cable* even though there is galvanic isolation, so it's just swapping one set of issues for another.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

rb2013 said:


> Repost - F-1 DDC of the decade!


 
 Is there a version of this with a case or only as DIY unit? Would like to replace my Gustard U12 with the Singxer F-1.


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> That's what I think too - but OP said:
> "from my experience with ethernet and *the squeezebox touch you still get cable affects and noise passing through the ethernet cable* even though there is galvanic isolation, so it's just swapping one set of issues for another."


 
  
 Yes, saw it. It's my opinion, he has his own. Different people different experiences, different environments and rigs.
 But there is a lot of devices on the LAN all must be with GI. From NIC in PC server, through swithes, to NIC in SB.
 But if one need could always:
 1. Unplug the ethernet cable from SB (it's still playing)
 2. Use wifi
 3. Use medical ethernet isolation
 and then compare the sound 
 I haven't found differences


----------



## mhamel

roger7 said:


> Yes, saw it. It's my opinion, he has his own. Different people different experiences, different environments and rigs.
> But there is a lot of devices on the LAN all must be with GI. From NIC in PC server, through swithes, to NIC in SB.
> But if one need could always:
> 1. Unplug the ethernet cable from SB (it's still playing)
> ...


 
  
 Not to mention, twisted pair cable is, by design, built to reject noise and interference, otherwise it wouldn't be able to handle the bandwidth that it does for network use.


----------



## rb2013

h1f1add1cted said:


> Is there a version of this with a case or only as DIY unit? Would like to replace my Gustard U12 with the Singxer F-1.


 

 Right now just without a case - but it is plug and play ready.  Very soon Singxer is launching the SU-1 fully boxed up and plug in ready.


 It'll be roughly twice as expensive as the F-1.  So Stay tuned for the release announcement.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Yes, saw it. It's my opinion, he has his own. Different people different experiences, different environments and rigs.
> But there is a lot of devices on the LAN all must be with GI. From NIC in PC server, through swithes, to NIC in SB.
> But if one need could always:
> 1. Unplug the ethernet cable from SB (it's still playing)
> ...


 
 Well I'll be try all those later today - I have 4 different CAT5e/CAT6/CAT7 cables coming.  One STP the other UTP.
  


mhamel said:


> Not to mention, twisted pair cable is, by design, built to reject noise and interference, otherwise it wouldn't be able to handle the bandwidth that it does for network use.


 
 Yes - hence the good advice to avoid the 'flat' CAT cables.


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Well I'll be try all those later today - I have 4 different CAT5e/CAT6/CAT7 cables coming.  One STP the other UTP.
> 
> Yes - hence the good advice to avoid the 'flat' CAT cables.


 
  
 Great.
  
 Theory: STP cable should be better than UTP in terms of canceling interferences.
 But to use STP in LAN all cables have to be STP and all devices have to be properly grounded otherwise shielding will be acting as antenna. 
 In consumer market network, with consumer market LAN devices it is hard to achieve. So better one uses UTP as mhamel said.
 BTW: Do you know you were mentioned in stereotimes article?


----------



## roger7

BTW: one of our polish web magazines tested and reviewed yellowtec PUC Lite back in January. Found it better than BADA usb


----------



## sbgk

I was just posting my findings, you can put ferrites on ethernet cables, what happens ? the treble is reduced, should be impossible, but there you go.
  
 I also tuned the tcp/ip settings using this http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php, it also made a difference.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Great.
> 
> Theory: STP cable should be better than UTP in terms of canceling interferences.
> But to use STP in LAN all cables have to be STP and all devices have to be properly grounded otherwise shielding will be acting as antenna.
> ...


 
 Yes - and he recommended thr PUC2 Lite...it was a good review.  Thanks for the explaination on the STP issue.
  


roger7 said:


> BTW: one of our polish web magazines tested and reviewed yellowtec PUC Lite back in January. Found it better than BADA usb


 
 I had seen some posts on CA by folks who had both - they prefered the PUC2 lite as well.
  


sbgk said:


> I was just posting my findings, you can put ferrites on ethernet cables, what happens ? the treble is reduced, should be impossible, but there you go.
> 
> I also tuned the tcp/ip settings using this http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php, it also made a difference.


 
 Well in audio nothing surprises me - theory and test bench measurements are great - but in the end I trust listening...I see SR and AQ have $1000 CAT cables!  You may be right subsituting one set of problems for another.
  
 I will open two new threads over the weekend - one on the 'PS Audio' LAN ethernet USB extender phenom and the other on AES67 Audio over IP.  The later actually really interests me alot...
  
 http://www.musicdirect.com/p-58154-audioquest-rje-diamond-ethernet-cable.aspx?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=91894008788&gclid=CPytqceUtMwCFc5hfgodggAPag
  
 "Just as we discovered many years ago with S/PDIF cables, it is easy to damage the information package. To avoid corruption (jitter), *AudioQuest* offers new models of high-performance Ethernet cables featuring better metals, critical signal-pair geometry, Dielectric Bias-System (DBS), Noise-Dissipation System—all proven techniques for delivering superior digital audio."
  
 And around and around we go....


----------



## jfrocke

Does anyone know what the 20 pin header on the F-1 board is for?


----------



## rb2013

jfrocke said:


> Does anyone know what the 20 pin header on the F-1 board is for?


 

 i2s


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 Perhaps, but are those "issues" equal?


----------



## BrainFood

> He took my order on Ebay April 8th - one of the first then said he had none!  Here was his message on shipping April 14th:
> It is now the April 26th no F-1.  Worse took two weeks of badgering him to get the driver link and passcode.  Freeshoppingchina.com it took 12 hours.
> 
> Shenzen is a disaster!  Avoid!  Now I hear the boards he sends do not have the i2s pins attached!


 
  
 Hi. Is this that seller or a better one?  
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/SINGXER-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface-board-XU208-chip-High-end-U8-upgraded-version/601461_32648384788.html


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Yes - and he recommended thr PUC2 Lite...it was a good review.  Thanks for the explaination on the STP issue.
> 
> I had seen some posts on CA by folks who had both - they prefered the PUC2 lite as well.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Without trying to get into a debate about cables or subjective/objective... As for expensive LAN cables - I think that if you get a tested/certified Cat6a cable it will be a better option than dropping large amounts of money on the AudioQuest cable.  (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/07/340-audiophile-ethernet-cable-gets-a-marginal-pass-on-the-test-bench/)  
  
 While the cheap generic cables definitely don't meet spec, the AudioQuest cable barely meets it, while a properly constructed and tested/certified Cat6a cable will outperform it. A 10ft Cat6a rated/tested ethernet cable from BJC is $21. They even include the test report to show the cable's performance. Cat7 is un-necessary if you're not using 10GbE.
  
 We have to remember here that the audio data is being encapsulated into network packets using a protocol that is designed to be as error-free as possible, including checksums, retransmits, etc. If you have a switch that can be monitored, it's easy to determine if there is packet loss. You can also check stats on the source. Diagnostics/reporting on the end device will vary based on the type of device/capabilities. This underlying structure is part of what makes Ethernet & TCP/IP great transports for audio data and why so many channels of bit perfect uncompressed audio can be handled simultaneously in both directions, even at high bitrates.
  
 That alone shows that the "directional" designation on the AudioQuest cable is complete nonsense. Ethernet is bidirectional. The TCP packets do not care what they contain in terms of audio data.  If there was some kind of signal degradation or loss based on the direction of the signal, it would not be suitable for audio use, especially in a pro audio scenario where something is being mastered. Even more so when it is handling potentially hundreds of high bit rate streams in both directions to multiple devices.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> Perhaps, but are those "issues" equal?


 

 That is the question!  AQ - comparing Ethernet to SPDIF is absurd...what gives high end audio a bad rap


----------



## rb2013

brainfood said:


> Hi. Is this that seller or a better one?
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/SINGXER-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface-board-XU208-chip-High-end-U8-upgraded-version/601461_32648384788.html


 

 Yes!


----------



## BrainFood

rb2013 said:


> Yes!


 
  
 Yes, as in the bad one?   Can you recommend a better one instead? Good thing about aliexpress is that there is some kind of buyer protection and it's in English.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Without trying to get into a debate about cables or subjective/objective... As for expensive LAN cables - I think that if you get a tested/certified Cat6a cable it will be a better option than dropping large amounts of money on the AudioQuest cable.  (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/07/340-audiophile-ethernet-cable-gets-a-marginal-pass-on-the-test-bench/)
> 
> While the cheap generic cables definitely don't meet spec, the AudioQuest cable barely meets it, while a properly constructed and tested/certified Cat6a cable will outperform it. A 10ft Cat6a rated/tested ethernet cable from BJC is $21. They even include the test report to show the cable's performance. Cat7 is un-necessary if you're not using 10GbE.
> 
> ...


 

 Many thanks - completely agree!
  
 Do you have a link for that cable.  I don't really trust these Amazon cable sellers.  Bought this one from Lowes yesterday (just in case the other's don't arrive on time), you'd think for $479 Startech could provide a quality tested CAT6 cable...geeze.
  
 This was $3.98 for a CAT5e 7ft at Lowes
 http://www.lowes.com/pd_737251-1571-AC3507-WH-V1_2z8vi__?productId=999930134&pl=1&Ntt=cat5e+cable


----------



## jfrocke

I ordered through the Shenzen eBay store yesterday and received a shipping notice today.  Not that means it actually is on the way but it is a good sign at least.


----------



## rb2013

Posted today on  CA - the spinning begins:
  


> This is correct​
> 
> > _
> >
> ...


 
  
 Now if you listen to Paul on the Youtube video - he does not say 'We think this sounds so great because we made all these changes to the stock OEM unit'.  No he says (paraphase) 'We think it sounds so good because of the galvanic isolation and TCP/IP'.
  
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
  
 At 2:10 He explains the issue with their own UpNP Bridge solution, that being 'stuck' with UpNP...problematic, fussy, limited compatibility...
 At 2:36 Discusses their search for a better solution, USB over Ethernet , and finding this company, then how hard it is to design and the ASIC
 At 3:10 He says they got the unit and he plugged it in and the SQ improved - not that they had asked for a specific design change - that made it sound better - I take it as it was the stock Icron OEM unit.
 At 4:18 He speaks about the folks there asking 'Why does it sound better?' then brings up the Regen...and this 'knocks it's socks off' then the explaination - galvanic isolation and the conversion from USB packets to TCP/IP packets produces an even deeper isolation (my comment: this would be beyond what the Intona does)...no mention of any design enhancements or changes...
 At 9:40 He again says 'I use it because it sounds better...'. then mentions the June Beta testing.  No mention of any PSA enhancements, design changes as the reason for the SQ improvements.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Many thanks - completely agree!
> 
> Do you have a link for that cable.  I don't really trust these Amazon cable sellers.  Bought this one from Lowes yesterday (just in case the other's don't arrive on time), you'd think for $479 Startech could provide a quality tested CAT6 cable...geeze.
> 
> ...


 
  
 https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/
  
 They're made to order, so any length you need.


----------



## rb2013

jfrocke said:


> I ordered through the Shenzen eBay store yesterday and received a shipping notice today.  Not that means it actually is on the way but it is a good sign at least.


 

 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/
> 
> They're made to order, so any length you need.


 

 Great thanks!  If this does work as PMcG says it does SQ wise - I will certainly keep it and play with cables and PS for it...in a few hours I will know.


----------



## rb2013

PRODUCTS
SUPPORT
COMMUNITY 
 
 




FORUMS PRODUCTS PULSE SOURCE AES-67 / RAVENNA AUDIO OVER IP



 AES-67 / Ravenna Audio over IP http://lhlabs.com/forum/topic/aes-67-ravenna-audio-over-ip/ 





  


> Is there any consideration or possibility of including AES-67 or its subset Ravenna Audio over IP functionality in the Source?  Licensing for these protocols is free, the biggest issue is coding and integration into the product.​ J.P.​


 


> Sorry, it’s not in the spec. We really don’t want to postpone the project any further by adding more features. I’ll put it on a rev request report for Larry, though. Maybe it’ll make it into version 2.0.​​


 


> As for what IES-67 and Ravenna are…  Audio over IP is a protocol for sending audio over an ethernet connection.  This would be similar to USB audio, but the distance could be anywhere from .5m to 100m or more, rather than the USB limit of ~4.5m.  These protocols also allow for multiple players synchronized to less than a millisecond, meaning that you could have several systems within the house playing the same thing in exact synchronization – good for parties or whatever.​ This also has the potential for being a better transport than USB for several reasons.  One reason is that there is a bit less processing overhead for AoIP compared to USB.  USB is a very processor intensive interface.​ For a reference, the Merging Technologies NADAC (Network Attached DAC) has an Ethernet connection for Ravenna,and does not have a USB port at all.​ http://nadac.merging.com/nadac​ http://nadac.merging.com/networking​ J.P.​


 


> Hi Jcooke, multicast is certainly possible but that would require the Source (router in this instance) be able to handle the protocol including the receivers. What is known of multicast deployment is it’s majorly used in enterprise based environments like hotels, broadcasting businesses etc.. but is rarely available to the general public. It’s a very different protocol than the usual unicast protocol found in most routers. One more difficulty is using the protocol in a Wi-fi environment. As far as having the Geek Blue, if I am not mistaken, it can only pair on a single device at a time. The above suggested setup would require to use a router capable of multi-zone broadcast which simplifies the implementation but definitively increases the costs.​


----------



## rb2013

MERGING+NADAC - Network Attached Digital to Analogue Converter (note no USB or i2s inputs - doesn't get more sota then this machine) Digital Inputs 
*Ethernet (RAVENNA/AES67) on RJ45 connector. Accepts 44.1kHz – 384kHz PCM, DXD, DSD 64, DSD128, DSD256*
*Connects from the computer using standard ASIO on Windows and CoreAudio on Mac*
Allows cable runs up to 100m on a single Cat5e or Cat6 cable, with possible repeaters, hubs or switches
Asynchronous communication. The MERGING+NADAC controls the rate at which the digital audio data is sent to the DAC, not the computer or the player
Ultra-precise communication clocking driven by the DAC…. Precision Time Protocol is at the heart of RAVENNA, ensuring a clock resolution of one nanosecond
AES/EBU on 3-pin female XLR connector (44.1kHz - 192kHz PCM)
SPDIF Optical on Toslink connector (44.1kHz - 96kHz PCM)
SPDIF Coaxial on RCA Phono (44.1kHz - 96kHz PCM)
 
  
Universal remote control  
 Web based remote control of menu functions and volume. Any web enabled smartphone, tablet or computer can control the listening level and the source selection of any MERGING+NADAC on the network. This allows you to remotely control any MERGING+NADAC in any zones in your building with a unique remote control: your phone or tablet.


  
   
  
 http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/impressions-the-merging-technology-nadac-mc-8-dsd-dac/
 Quote:


> To do this, Merging developed Ravenna, a TCP/IP protocol and application set for audio over Ethernet, later fully supported in the Audio Engineering Society's AES67 standard (*HERE*), which Merging Technologies had helped to produce. In sum, this allowed Merging's family of devices (Horus, HAPI, and NADAC, for example)* to use ASIO (PC/Windows) or Core Audio (Mac) drivers to communicate and network with one another reliably*, over much longer distances and in more complex topologies. This would have to be something other than a consumer-oriented "one-to-one-with-a-short-cable" basis, obviously. *Since Ravenna is fully compatible with the AES67 standard, all Merging Technologies Ravenna devices will interoperate with those of other manufacturers using AES67.* This is a key point for professional settings, since large and complex implementations are _not_ cheap, and are _not_ easily replaced or upgraded.


 


> _When the NADAC is connected to a standard computer based digital audio source and a stereo DSD stream is being received, *just over 1% of the network's capacity is being used, so it is hardly being stressed at all. *_


 


> _Using a utility that is installed on the computer, NADAC controls the rate at which the digital audio data is sent.  _*Rather than being sent as a continuous stream, as is the case with standard digital audio interfaces, *the data is sent in packets, which contain extra data that allows NADAC to detect if there are any errors.  If an error is detected, NADAC requests that data packet is sent again.*  This is possible because of the high speed at which the data is sent and also, very importantly, because the incoming data is stored in a large buffer memory.*_ The data is then clocked out of this memory using a high precision clock built into NADAC.  _*This guarantees a very high level of data integrity,*_ which is obviously essential in a professional recording system, where there may be only one chance to capture a performance. _*It also eliminates the cable and jitter related problems associated with conventional digital audio interfaces, something that has been a holy grail for audiophiles*_. _
> _Another advantage of using Ethernet is that is allows several NADACs to be connected to a common music server computer, each receiving a different music data stream, so as well as offering excellent performance in conventional standalone 2-channel system, NADAC is ideal for use in sophisticated networked audio systems.   In a complex system with multiple D/A converters and possibly other network devices, ensuring data integrity can be a challenge, but the RAVENNA protocol's extremely powerful data management capability ensures that this carried out very efficiently, thereby ensuring consistently excellent sound quality._
> _A further advantage of the Ethernet interface is that it allows long cables to be used: typically up to 100m.  Thus the music server or computer may be located remotely, so that any noise it generates does not disturb the listener and NADAC located close to the power amplifiers so that the analogue cable lengths may be minimised for the best sound quality."_


----------



## mhamel

Here goes nothing... lol
  

  
  
 https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-d16-aes  - Ordered, along with a pair of BJC Cat6a cables for the LACP link from my computer<->GigE switch and another BJC Cat6a to go from the switch to the D16 AES.  The Focusrite box has dual redundant network connections, so at some point I might add a second just because I have plenty of ports but probably not necessary.
  
 I also ordered a word clock cable, so I can have the D16 sync to the master clock in my DAC, and a Mogami Gold AES cable.
  
 I opted to go with the 1U D16 vs the RedNet 3 since it fits in the 1U space I have available in the gear rack in here, and because it is a newer product.
  
 The PC I'm using has an Intel dual port GigE server NIC, with its own onboard processing to reduce latency and CPU overhead. For the time being I plan to use the Dante virtual sound card. I also have dual GigE ports on the motherboard, so I may experiment with a 2nd dedicated connection just for audio, too.
  
 Given the cost, it's got to better the USB->Wyrd->F1->SPDIF connection noticeably or it's going back... This should be interesting.
  
    -Mike


----------



## rb2013

OK Startech LAN has Landed!

  
  
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00
  
 And BOY does this thing work!  Holy Cow!  Now I have to say I listened to a fav test track for a reference point - and I said to myself - this is awfully great, how in the heck can it get better?
  
 Then in the first 30 seconds, with the Startech LAN in, my jaw dropped - I mean the uber chained F-1 is a detail champ - but now details emerged that I'd never heard - and the sweetness factor upped significantly!
  
 So I pulled the stock USB and replaced with a Forza Twin Copper USB (from the Startech LEX to PC) - another 1-2% improvement.

 Then tried my modded VBUS blocker - no go - not in the USB link - but on one of the spare USB port on the Startech REX - yes!  Another 1-2%  Second stock JB on another empty USB port on the REX - another 1-2%.   And these 1-2%'s are really adding up - or should I say on to the already awesome sound of this thing.
  
 With a $3.98 Lowes CAT5e cable!  Can't wait for a Blue Jean CAT6 or maybe something better...
  
 Install was as easy as can be - note the Startech LAN LEX is fed by a PPA V2 PCIe USB card and 5VDC iPower.
  
 Now the tough question worth $479?  That's a lot of dash - well for me yes!  Even If I have to canabalize my analog rig and sell it for cash.
  
 Just extraordinary...
  
 PS Got to say a BIG thank you to Paul McGowen for letting the cat out of the bag...this cat for one is very happy


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Here goes nothing... lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Who'a!   That's some sweet red gear - will anxiously wait that sounding!


----------



## rb2013

I ordered the best Ethernet cable that BJ had:
  
*Cat 6a Patch Cords--BJC C6AP*
 Bonded Pairs, Cat 6a, 500 MHz; Rated CMR for installation
 Every cable individually tested, with report
  
 3ft - $21 shipped


----------



## jfrocke

Is there a reason you chose the 4 port model instead of the simpler 1 port model?


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> OK Startech LAN has Landed!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So this configuration is geared for DACS with USB input I assume.
 How about for older DACS that only have AES/EBU or Spdif inputs, will still be needing a USB to Spdif converter right?


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> OK Startech LAN has Landed!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting advice.
 I am not sure to understand how you have connected them to the pc.
 Are you still using the F1 ? maybe the Regen before the sender ?
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

jfrocke said:


> Is there a reason you chose the 4 port model instead of the simpler 1 port model?


 

 It's the only one that is 1GB LAN version - so does the USB to TCP/IP conversion.  It's the one that look like the OEM version of the PS Audio LANRover - although I imagine they ordered some custom design enhancements.  Hard to say as it's offical release is months away.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting advice.
> I am not sure to understand how you have connected them to the pc.
> Are you still using the F1 ? maybe the Regen before the sender ?
> Thanks a lot again,  gino


 

 No Problem here is the very long data chain:
  
 PC>PPA V2 USB card>Forza Twin Copper Split USB cable>Startech LEX>CAT5e>Startech REX (with two JBs)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data only leg)>W4S Recovery>iPurifer2>F-1>AS Statement Silver SPDIF>APL DAC


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> No Problem here is the very long data chain:
> 
> PC>PPA V2 USB card>Forza Twin Copper Split USB cable>Startech LEX>CAT5e>Startech REX (with two JBs)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data only leg)>W4S Recovery>iPurifer2>F-1>AS Statement Silver SPDIF>APL DAC


 
 Thanks a lot !  quite long indeed. 
 I understand that optimizing this link pc to dac is very challenging.
 I will try to focus the key elements first.  I mean the F1 i guess and try to give it a good 5VDC power.
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## rb2013

I have to finish up a bunch of paperwork - so working in my office the rest of the afternoon.  So tonight will have a long listening session.
  
 This will give it time to burnin - although do these kind of devices 'burnin'?  Don't know.
  
 Note I did hear a SQ improvement by going from the included stock USB to the Forza Audio Split Twin Copper - definitely.  Just more of everything.
  
 So Paul's comment on the USB cable feeding the LAN USB device does not matter  - doesn't sound true to my experience (Hey Paul -Heck of a job 'hyping' more cables!  You're the anti-hyper!).  The $79 Forza improved the sound.
  
 Now the JBs' were interesting - noted increase in bass depth and maybe a slight darkening in the sound balance - but I liked that as the uber detailed F-1 is so clean, transparent, with tremendous air, and my maggies are not bass heavy speakers.  I noticed a touch more richness to the already incredibly rich tone.  This digital stream is sounding very analog with a ink black noise floor and better defined bass.
  
 Just judging from the JBs I think there maybe room for greater improvement with some tweeking.
  
 PS Now the REX power supply is 24V 1A - that is going to be hard to find a LPS to fed.  Thought of just adding a DC iPower to the stock unit.


----------



## wushuliu

Wait so the cheaper non gigabit versions are a no go? I thought you ordered both...


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Wait so the cheaper non gigabit versions are a no go? I thought you ordered both...


 

 Yeah that one hasn't arrived yet.  But our thinking is it does not do the USB to TCP/IP conversion so misses some of the benefit.  We'll see.
  
 Found this nice Acopian Yellowbox regulated LPS - 24V

240.52.1220.0050.0050.25A24MT210Order/QuoteM6260.00​
 Pretty spendy.
 http://www.acopian.com/store/9-(7).aspx?min=18&max=25


----------



## john57

If the device can not do USB to TCP/IP then you can not connect it to a Ethernet switch port on a wireless router for example. I wonder what bandwidth priority can be setup when someone is watching a video and transferring files on the LAN while you streaming music as well. Not sure how much control on audio traffic you can have with a LAN setup.


----------



## rb2013

john57 said:


> If the device can not do USB to TCP/IP then you can not connect it to a Ethernet switch port on a wireless router for example. I wonder what bandwidth priority can be setup when someone is watching a video and transferring files on the LAN while you streaming music as well. Not sure how much control on audio traffic you can have with a LAN setup.


 

 Well there are two that I ordered one is the 1GB LAN version  - that is the 'PS Audio' version - that is what I tested today.   You can go back a few pages ot see my comments - it's outstanding!
  
 The other is a nonLAN version much cheaper - that should be here next week.

 So far I am absolutely thrilled with Paul McGowen's discovery.
  
 Three Cheers to him!


----------



## roger7

john57 said:


> If the device can not do USB to TCP/IP then you can not connect it to a Ethernet switch port on a wireless router for example. I wonder what bandwidth priority can be setup when someone is watching a video and transferring files on the LAN while you streaming music as well. Not sure how much control on audio traffic you can have with a LAN setup.


 
  
 It's general USB to Ethernet converter not specific USB Audio one and it's unclear what protocol over tpc/ip is used for this purpose. So it would be hard to control of bandwidth.
 And QoS has only use when the LAN is overloaded.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Yeah that one hasn't arrived yet.  But our thinking is it does not do the USB to TCP/IP conversion so misses some of the benefit.  We'll see.
> 
> Found this nice Acopian Yellowbox regulated LPS - 24V
> 
> ...


 
  
 http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/lvregulatorkit.html  You can DIY a nice little 24v PSU for MUCH less.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/lvregulatorkit.html  You can DIY a nice little 24v PSU for MUCH less.


 

 Nice - thanks!


----------



## rb2013

john57 said:


> If the device can not do USB to TCP/IP then you can not connect it to a Ethernet switch port on a wireless router for example. I wonder what bandwidth priority can be setup when someone is watching a video and transferring files on the LAN while you streaming music as well. Not sure how much control on audio traffic you can have with a LAN setup.


 
 http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/impressions-the-merging-technology-nadac-mc-8-dsd-dac/
  


> But with audio/video data, you have very _time-sensitive _data. We _notice_ problems with delays or interruptions when we're streaming media, watching a YouTube video or Netflix, or listening to a favorite Quad DSD recording on an Ethernet-based device like the NADAC. Since most households simply have whatever switch they ran down to Office Depot or Best Buy to pick up, they are running unmanaged switches. That's a problem, due to the fact that you cannot set Ethernet data traffic priorities with an unmanaged switch.
> What you'll want to consider purchasing is a really good _managed_ switch for your LAN's connection from your music server, notebook, or network attached storage (NAS) to your NADAC. The Dell 2808 managed Ethernet switch is a very good, cost-effective (right now it's on sale for $129 at the Dell Web site) option that will get you 8 managed ports (*HERE*). Merging Technologies recommends and supports it. What a managed switch will give you is hardware support for port management, a Web interface to administer your switch, and software that will give you an administrative program for doing this easily.
> When you have a managed switch in place and its software installed, you'll be able to browse to your switch and setup your ports for what we call "Quality of Service" (QoS). You can then pick the port that you're plugging your server or notebook into, the port that you're plugging your NADAC into, and specify that those ports are to receive priority handling. This assures QoS, and is usually used for multimedia data streams. Having this in place will assure the best possible performance in your LAN, and will minimize the effect that traffic and multiple devices will have on your audio playback.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> I ordered the best Ethernet cable that BJ had:
> 
> *Cat 6a Patch Cords--BJC C6AP*
> Bonded Pairs, Cat 6a, 500 MHz; Rated CMR for installation
> ...


 
  
 I use this for the dual JPLAY PC setup and it has bettered 1 to 2% of the taiwanese cat6a cables. 
  
 so I have never bothered to look at audioquest and so on.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I use this for the dual JPLAY PC setup and it has bettered 1 to 2% of the taiwanese cat6a cables.
> 
> so I have never bothered to look at audioquest and so on.


 

 How far my system has come just in the last few months - I have to say - I'm tempted to try an AQ maybe a $37 Forest CAT 6 - just to see.
  
 How much more can it improve?  Got to hit the wall at some point...then it's just changes that are different not better...


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> ....
> *The other is a nonLAN version much cheaper - that should be here next week....  *


 
  
 Good morning and thanks a lot again for all your valuable effort and disclosing of very interesting findings.
*This one nonLAN could just be my target.  I do not need the LAN feature at all.  *
 The brain of the system i the PC and the files are on both NAS and external HDs.
 I will wait with great interest your findings.
  


> So far I am absolutely thrilled with Paul McGowen's discovery. Three Cheers to him!


 
  
 You are right.  A really nice man.  I like his way of presenting things.
 However i wonder who was the wise guy that chose USB as a link for audio signal transmission  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 it is just not possible that in order to get a decent transmission all this sort of accessories is needed.
 I am not saying that they do not work.  I am saying that is insane.
 If one thing is clear to me is *that Ethernet would have been a much much better choice.  *




 Maybe they want us to struggle, to suffer, to test pain  ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I have the mitiganting circumstance that i am dumb.
 But those are engineers ... oioioioi ...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks sincerely again.
 Have a nice day,  gino


----------



## prot

albrecht said:


> so the "endpoint" is the F-1?
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstood, - but i thought that one needed a mindsp RJ45 to I2s installed in a DAC.


You got it right. But it's just one of the ideas discussed here .. thread is running quite wild and in all directions


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Yes - I'm due to get one of the 1st ones - I returned my failed Pro3a a few weeks ago.  Curious to see if the Pro4a used the XU208 or XU216 - it should have NDK SD clocks and DIYinHK'a ultra low regulators - but no FPGA isolation like the F-1 and likely the SU-1.
> 
> Well I'm not sure of the SB - doubt it's a TCP/IP protocol - so I guess it all depends on what's flowing through those copper CAT5/6 cables.  If as some propose that the Non-LAN USB extenders are - just passing a USB packet through the ethernet cable - I could see how that cable could effect the sound.  Now with a true layer 3 Audio-IP scheme, like AES67 or AVB not so much.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Pro4A will be on sales probably in mid May. so lots of gear to AB and rank the chart.


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> OK Startech LAN has Landed!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


wushuliu said:


> Wait so the cheaper non gigabit versions are a no go? I thought you ordered both...


 


rb2013 said:


> Yeah that one hasn't arrived yet.  But our thinking is it does not do the USB to TCP/IP conversion so misses some of the benefit.  We'll see.


 
  
 Ok, I couldn't stretch to the price tag of the 1Gbit Startech LAN, but I've ordered a Lindy 42693 Extender USB 2.0 (that is a mere Usb extender over ethernet) and a Connecticplus Kit extender USB 2.0 over TCP/IP.
  
 The latter should do the Startech job (but not in 1Gbit mode) as in the description of both Amazon.de and Amazon.uk is clearly stated that is a USB to TCP/IP.
  
 Let's hope they'll work.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi !
 but would an industrial usb isolator be not enough ?
 i am thinking to something like  ...
  
*industrial USB isolator > regen > usb dac or usb DDC (i.e. like the excellent F1) *
  
 and the job should be done.
 Am i trivializing the all issue ?
 I have bought a *Shentek 11023 *now on ebay.com.   There is also a dc socket for an external power supply.
 i have to add than i am not on high rez or dsd.  Just old redbook and 16/48.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## wakka992

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !
> but would an industrial usb isolator be not enough ?
> i am thinking to something like  ...
> 
> ...


 
 Hi ginetto,
  
 Is this what you bought? http://www.shentek.com/products/shentek-11023-usb-to-usb-converter-5kv-isolation-protection-din-rail-wall-mount-bracket
  
 If yes, I think that your Shentek 11023 is not enough for audio as it's max out at 12Mbps Full Speed USB 2.0, so no USB 2.0 HiSpeed 480Mbps required for audio playback.
  
 I suggest you cancel the order


----------



## ginetto61

wakka992 said:


> Hi ginetto,
> Is this what you bought? http://www.shentek.com/products/shentek-11023-usb-to-usb-converter-5kv-isolation-protection-din-rail-wall-mount-bracket
> If yes, I think that your Shentek 11023 is not enough for audio as it's max out at 12Mbps Full Speed USB 2.0,
> *so no USB 2.0 HiSpeed 480Mbps required for audio playback.  *


 
  
 Hi ! sorry _*even for 16/48 are the 480 Mbps really needed ? *_




 because the idea is to use it only up to 16/48.
  
 Thanks,  gino  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 P.S.  yes i see just now that *the Intona can actually allows 480 Mbps !!!!  *




  
http://intona.eu/en/products
  


> *The Innovation* Previous isolators where limited to Full Speed (12 MBit/s) and Low Speed (1.5 MBit/s) transmission. This new product is capable of transmitting USB Hi-Speed (480 MBit/s) while providing full galvanic isolation of both the data and the power lines.
 
  
 really amazing ... however this i do not like very much
  


> Powered by USB bus, no separate power supply


 
 this for me would be mandatory.  So that i could use the best ps i can find.
 However i guess  the Intona could be overkill for my humble set-up.


----------



## Caper

Today I made a head to head comparison between F1 and an old Pioneer DVD player.
 Last time I did it my old Baby Breeze lost.
  
 Now listening with the DVD player and a wav rip from that CD with F1 and Jriver using ASIO it´s another story.
 DVD player plays with a little bit brighter tone but looses big time in bass and details.
 The sound from the F1 has so much more body, the DVD player sounds very thin in comparison.
  
 Pioneer DVD player connected to Hegel H80 Coax2.
  
 Intel Nuc-->Sbooster vbus blocker-->Supra USB cable-->Aqvox psu-->Intona isolator-->Supra USB cable-->F1-->Oehlbach coax cable-->Hegel H80 coax1
  
 I am a happy camper!


----------



## BrainFood

ccschua said:


> Pro4A will be on sales probably in mid May. so lots of gear to AB and rank the chart.


 
  
  
 Do you know if DIYINHK's XMOS driver enables latency settings in the control panel?  If so will wait for Pro4A, as Singxer's driver doesn't have it apparently.  Had the same issue with the XMOS of my now-departed Gustard X20, so it's kinda deja vu..and a PITA.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Good morning and thanks a lot again for all your valuable effort and disclosing of very interesting findings.
> *This one nonLAN could just be my target.  I do not need the LAN feature at all.  *
> The brain of the system i the PC and the files are on both NAS and external HDs.
> I will wait with great interest your findings.
> ...


 

 Well  the test will be what it sounds like...


----------



## rb2013

> [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/8/81/100x100px-LS-81cc36ee_avatar-120-5.jpg[/img]
> 
> prot
> 
> ...


 
 Yes it has and you have helped it's wildness!  But with some great stuff (NADAC) so Thanks!
  
 This week has been monumental for me in terms of understanding what's happening now in cutting edge digital audio and what is just around the bend.  Moving so fast at this point.  So I will branch off two new threads this weekend.  So this epic one can stay on the XU208 focus.
  
 BTW - I learned this week - that the MINdsp board you linked to - NOT LAN compatible.  It is ONLY Layer 2 Ethernet AVB - not the Layer 3 like RAVEENA and DANTE - both AES67.
 The AVB requires special LAN switches - what we need is a AES67 board like it.  More on this and other breaking developments on the new thread...


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Hi ginetto,
> 
> Is this what you bought? http://www.shentek.com/products/shentek-11023-usb-to-usb-converter-5kv-isolation-protection-din-rail-wall-mount-bracket
> 
> ...


 

 Good advice!  The Intona is the only USB HiSpeed USB isolator I know about  - at least for now.  I will go into more detail on the break out thread.
  
 But just to summarize - the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN Ethernet to USB extender provides isolation at two levels - galvanic isolation at one and then at a deeper level through USB to TCP/IP conversion and reconstruction.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! sorry _*even for 16/48 are the 480 Mbps really needed ? *_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Gino, this has been around for a year - not something new 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  Now what is new is the upcoming Uptone Uber Regen which will incorporate galvanic isolation.


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Today I made a head to head comparison between F1 and an old Pioneer DVD player.
> Last time I did it my old Baby Breeze lost.
> 
> Now listening with the DVD player and a wav rip from that CD with F1 and Jriver using ASIO it´s another story.
> ...


 

 Victory!  Your mission is accomplished!


----------



## rb2013

brainfood said:


> Do you know if DIYINHK's XMOS driver enables latency settings in the control panel?  If so will wait for Pro4A, as Singxer's driver doesn't have it apparently.  Had the same issue with the XMOS of my now-departed Gustard X20, so it's kinda deja vu..and a PITA.


 
  
  
 Only the full XMOS driver version allows that - see Chodi for a version - although it's an older one.
  
  
 Foobar 2000 and other players allow buffer setting to set.
  
 I'd recommend JPlay 6.2 it has a latency setting.
  
 BTW none of the XMOS DDC's I've seen have the full driver package - and if they did they would be superseded quickly as the drivers seem to be updated every few months.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


>





> Gino, this has been around for a year - not something new
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot !  i think i said i am slow to catch up ...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  one year ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  then very slow  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


> Now what is new is the upcoming Uptone Uber Regen which will incorporate *galvanic isolation*.


 
  
 and this confirms the importance of galvanic isolation.   Good !
 I was about to try the Intona but i will wait to see this new product.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

OK listening to the ICRON/Startech LAN Ethernet/USB extender last night. 
  
 I repeated the albums from the night before - so I was very familiar to their sound.  Everyone was better - here is what i heard that was different with the Startech LAN:
  
 More life, loudness dynamics, detail, but the best difference a analog like fluidity and ease.   Like I have never heard digital do before.  Musical, sweetness.  It just happened that the albums I heard the previous night were 30-40 yrs old Springsteen - which I have always found a bit edgie.  Screeching guitars, horns, loud vocals.  Last night like a LP was playing on a sota Turntable - but with greater detail and a ink black noise floor.
  
 And something else - i'll coin a term - 'temporal dynamics' the way the artists changing of tempo is conveyed - never heard it so realistically displayed by digital.  One criticism I have had of digital from the start is a kind of flattish dynamic and sound field presentation.  Vinyl well done more holographic.  Now I have to say digital has surpassed it!
  
 I tried the Baaske MI 1005 Medical galvanic isolator in the ethernet connection - this came with a ferrite bead hookup cable.  It darkened the sound to much - rounding the edges of some of the detail.  Removed it and one of the Jitterbugs.  Sweetspot!  Just perfect!

  
  
 So using just one Jitterbug in an open USB port on the REX was ideal.  It does make me think a better CAT6 cable will help.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot !  i think i said i am slow to catch up ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well my hope is the nonLAN Startech USB extender will provide the level of improvements - or at least close.  What I did not like about the Intona was the use of el-cheapo SiTIme clocks for reclocking - and this comment from @Superdad on the Regen thread:
  

 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/9a/100x100px-LS-9acb55ce_TinySystem.jpeg[/img]
 
Superdad
Member of the Trade: UpTone Audio




 
offline
 
51 Posts. Joined 4/2015
 



prot said:


> The hard part is the galvanic iso. Chips who can do that at full usb2.0 speed are rare, new and expensive. Afaik Intona has the only commercial chip right now .. few others are rumored to come.


 
  
 No, the Intona is not based on a commercial chip.  Rather what they have done is write their own USB MAC processing core for an FPGA, then run it in two FPGAs separated by standard Silicon Labs digital isolators.  Unfortunately, they use one very average clock for the entire device--and they have it located on the "dirty" upstream side.  There is jitter added by both FPGAs and 350ps of jitter added by the isolators.  They reclock it all in the second FPGA, but there is broad debate about if that is the best place to reclock.  In addition, none of the voltage regulators they use in the device would be considered particularly low noise (at 55uVrms and 100uVrms).
  
 The Intona does sound good with a REGEN after it though.  That's how I use it.  At least for another couple of months, when we will then release our uber-REGEN with, among a bunch of other enhancements, full galvanic isolation.


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Well my hope is the nonLAN Startech USB extender will provide the level of improvements - or at least close.  What I did not like about the Intona was the use of el-cheapo SiTIme clocks for reclocking - and this comment from @Superdad on the Regen thread:


 
  
 And do you know what clocks Startech is using? El-cheapo or el-expensivo ones?


----------



## roger7

caper said:


> Today I made a head to head comparison between F1 and an old Pioneer DVD player.
> Last time I did it my old Baby Breeze lost.
> 
> Now listening with the DVD player and a wav rip from that CD with F1 and Jriver using ASIO it´s another story.
> ...


 
  
 Have you listened to the same chain without Intona? Like that:
 Intel Nuc-->Sbooster vbus blocker-->Supra USB cable-->Aqvox psu-->F1-->Oehlbach coax cable-->Hegel H80 coax1
 And differences you can describe?


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Well my hope is the nonLAN Startech USB extender will provide the level of improvements - or at least close.
> What I did not like about *the Intona was the use of el-cheapo SiTIme clocks for reclocking *- and this comment from @Superdad on the Regen thread:
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot.   So these galavnic isolators add quite some jitter.  I see.
 Yes a Regen with isolation sould be just the perfect solution providing both isolation and reclocking.
 Is the Intona alone really so bad ?
 because i guess the F1 should reclock again the signal, if i am not wrong.
 regards,  gino


----------



## roger7

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !
> but would an industrial usb isolator be not enough ?
> i am thinking to something like  ...
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think none can tell you for sure. Only guessing.
 One would have to compare Intona, Shentek and Startech in one rig.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> And do you know what clocks Startech is using? El-cheapo or el-expensivo ones?


 

 I don't believe they need clocks - as they are not isolating the USB stream per se...that's the beauty of this approach.  The Intona approach seems much more complicated.  And now we can just eliminate the USB part completely - AES67Ethernet to SPDIF (i2s?)!
  
 You see USB requires a two communication and there for a short cable run - latency issues with longer.  The TCP/IP conversion of the USB packets eliminates that issue.  But that is why ISO audio will not work on the ICRON/Startech LAN Ethernet to USB extender.  The TCP/IP protocol does not allow for that two way communication.  It does communicate between the sender (LEX) and the reciever (REX) for lost or erronious TCP/IP packets - those all load into a very large buffer that then feeds the TCP/IP to USB conversion.
  
 Fortunately we all use Async USB 2.0 Audio - no need for that USB two way communication


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! thanks a lot.   So these galavnic isolators add quite some jitter.  I see.
> Yes a Regen with isolation sould be just the perfect solution providing both isolation and reclocking.
> Is the Intona alone really so bad ?
> because i guess the F1 should reclock again the signal, if i am not wrong.
> regards,  gino


 

 No the Intona is not 'bad' as the benefits of the galvanic isolation outweigh their design approach - but there are and possibly already better solutions to GI and designs coming...
  
 Most people report positive SQ improvement with the Intona.
  
 But not all - from the CA PS Audio :LANRover thread:


> *genjamon*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> No the Intona is not 'bad' as the benefits of the galvanic isolation outweigh their design approach - but there are and possibly already better solutions to GI and designs coming...
> Most people report positive SQ improvement with the Intona.
> But not all - from the CA PS Audio :LANRover thread:


 
 You got me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 you know ... i am sure that something must be done on this blesses usb signal sourced by the pc. 
 Isolation and regeneration/conditioning of the signal i guess surely can make the life easier for the usb ddc/dac downstream.
 But when i see cascade on even 10 elements between pc and usb dac i am a little puzzled.
 I mean ... isolation and reclocking are needed ? then why not doing all this in just one unit ?
 do this in two unit implies another cable in between.
 the Uber Regen in this sense goes in this direction and also the other products should address both the issues.
 Instead i see purifier, isolator, reclocker, regenerator, .. i do not see buffer .. strange.
 Instead the lan feature ... that i am not very interested in.
 Ok end of the ramblings.
 Thanks a lot again for your patience,   gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> You got me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 YES!  What I've been discussing this week with AES67 Layer 3 Ethernet and Thunderbolt 3 before (actually AES67 and TB3 will work fine together) - USB is a dead man walking...Audio overIP is the new way.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 UpNP is not going to replace it, it will be the solution that allows users complete transparency to what ever media player they use now - and that's not it...


----------



## prot

Ethernet-to-aes + Dante networking.
Looks like an easy solution.
https://www.audinate.com/dante-enabled/attero-tech-undaes-o

And btw, for anyone who wants a good network cable I'd definitely go with mhamel's recomendation for the BJC cable. Or anything made by Belden (like the Belden DataTuff series). Those are some serious network cables who pass all Cat specs without a sweat .. somewhat expensive but nowhere near Audioquest unicorn prices.

And if you wanna go nuts, these are your ethernet connectors .. they look the part, do the job and as a bonus are very easy to use (solderless)
http://www.telegaertner.com/en/info/highlights/mfp8/


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Ethernet-to-aes + Dante networking.
> Looks like an easy solution.
> https://www.audinate.com/dante-enabled/attero-tech-undaes-o
> 
> ...


 

 Nice converter - Unfortunately only does 2 channel 96Khz.  Love those meaty connectors.
  
 Here's the one that does 192k over two channels - SPDIF and AES.  It is expensive but the prices are dropping - when the Focusrite REDNET 3 launched in 2013 it was $1400 now $799.  Very soon they will get much cheaper - this unit has ADC's and MIC inputs.  It's designed for ProAudio studios.  Prosumer products with AES67 Dante and RAVENNA will be coming soon.
  
 Sorry I posted earlier in the week, but here it is again.
  
 https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-3

  

  
 I emailed Focusrite to launch a simple DANTE AES67 Ethernet to SPDIF/AES box for us audiophiles - asked if they could name it the 'REDNET-RB2013'
  
 No reply yet...


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> YES!  What I've been discussing this week with AES67 Layer 3 Ethernet and Thunderbolt 3 before (actually AES67 and TB3 will work fine together) -
> USB is a dead man walking...Audio overIP is the new way.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So there seems to be light at the end of the usb tunnel ... good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> Ethernet-to-aes + Dante networking.
> Looks like an easy solution.
> https://www.audinate.com/dante-enabled/attero-tech-undaes-o
> 
> ...


 
  
 About Telegärtner RJ45 connectors, old news 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  

  

  

  
 Used it in DualPC mode, indeed performed better.
 ViaBlue is better, used it too:
  
 http://www.viablue.de/com/ep7s_cat7_ethernet_cable_solid.shtml


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> So there seems to be light at the end of the usb tunnel ... good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 yeah like a super nova kinda light.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> About Telegärtner RJ45 connectors, old news
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sweet!  I think I'm going to go into the audio Ethernet cable business...


----------



## ccschua

abartels said:


> Used it in DualPC mode, indeed performed better.
> ViaBlue is better, used it too:
> 
> http://www.viablue.de/com/ep7s_cat7_ethernet_cable_solid.shtml


 
  
 Hi, wonder if u had compared viablue it to the bluejeans cable in dual pc mode. So far, the improvement that I had doesnt compel me to try any further on ethernet cables.


----------



## riffer

prot said:


> ....
> 
> And btw, for anyone who wants a good network cable I'd definitely go with @mhamel's recomendation for the BJC cable. Or anything made by Belden (like the Belden DataTuff series). Those are some serious network cables who pass all Cat specs without a sweat .. somewhat expensive but nowhere near Audioquest unicorn prices.
> 
> .....


 
  
 Another vote for BJC network cables.  I use those for all the critical wiring in my network.  I started out with just the servers, but eventually I bit the bullet and replaced everything.  They aren't even that expensive.


----------



## rb2013

riffer said:


> Another vote for BJC network cables.  I use those for all the critical wiring in my network.  I started out with just the servers, but eventually I bit the bullet and replaced everything.  They aren't even that expensive.


 

 Yeah thanks Mike!  BTW he has the Focusrite REDNETDI16 was it?  Anyway we should get a report on this DANTE to AES thing soon.
  
 BJC cable on it's way yesterday!


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> I don't believe they need clocks - as they are not isolating the USB stream per se...that's the beauty of this approach.  The Intona approach seems much more complicated.  And now we can just eliminate the USB part completely - AES67Ethernet to SPDIF (i2s?)!
> 
> You see USB requires a two communication and there for a short cable run - latency issues with longer.  The TCP/IP conversion of the USB packets eliminates that issue.  But that is why ISO audio will not work on the ICRON/Startech LAN Ethernet to USB extender.  The TCP/IP protocol does not allow for that two way communication.  It does communicate between the sender (LEX) and the reciever (REX) for lost or erronious TCP/IP packets - those all load into a very large buffer that then feeds the TCP/IP to USB conversion.
> 
> Fortunately we all use Async USB 2.0 Audio - no need for that USB two way communication


 

 Hi Robert:
  
 Your enthusiasm in this thread and elsewhere is wonderful--and infectious.
 I mean no offense, but I've been watching this thread for some time, and that enthusiasm and your posts often run well ahead of the facts.  I really would not know where to begin in correcting some of what has been written here.
  
 There is a LOT of misunderstanding about audio-over-IP for sure, and if eliminating USB and putting Ethernet into DACs was so simple you would have seen much more of it long ago.  I could write a lot about that, but mainly people need to think about the OS and player side, as lack of truly free and open "virtual sound card" drivers--which should just be built into the OS--to allow Ethernet ports look to apps look like a sound card is what keeps the requirement for end-point devices to be full 'renderers', which aside from potential convenience and galvanic isolation does not otherwise change the world.
  
 But today I can at least correct what you wrote above:  The ICRON units--and all USB and Ethernet connection products--absolutely have oscillator clocks!  All processor chips need them, as do all PHY interfaces (USB, Ethernet, etc.).  For the Icron units they are 24Mhz and 25Mhz, the latter of which gets used at both 25Mhz as well as multiplied to 100Mhz (for FPGA use).
  
 The other misconception here is with regards isochronous versus async transmission. In the USB audio specs (UAC1 and UAC2) ALL audio is isochronous, isochronous means "constant time", the host reserves time on the bus for the stream so no other device can use it, the stream is guaranteed its slice of bandwidth. So both of the common protocols used for audio--adaptive and asynchronous--are isochronous, the stream from the computer is EXACTLY the same in both cases. The difference is that asynchronous protocol adds a feedback path from the DAC to the computer than can be used to tell the computer to speed up or slow down. The samples that come from the computer go into a FIFO as they come in, the local (presumably low jitter) clock is used to take them out. The DAC keeps tabs on how full the FIFO is and tells the computer to slow down or speed up if the FIFO is getting too full or too empty. The feedback happens every so often as needed to keep the computer in step with the local clock. Adaptive protocol does not have the feedback, so the clock in the DAC has to adjust itself to match the rate coming over the wire.
  
  
 For the ICRON devices, only the faster Gigabit LAN versions have enough speed and buffer to handle an isochronous stream.  There are other aspects of Icron's ExtremeUSB and Simultaneous User tech which are quite interesting, but I am under a non-disclosure agreement with Icron and thus not sure what I can or can not reveal.
  
 While we are more interested in what could be done with their SO-DIMM modules, if I was PS Audio, one of the first areas I'd look to for customizing/improving the REX end of the Icron RG2304GE-LAN boards would be the power supply, as stock it just uses DC-DC switching regulators to take that 24V down to 5V, 3.3V, and likely 1.2V for the core.
  
 I'd say something about improving the REX's USB output signal integrity with some popular devices, but then the mods would probably delete this post.  
  
 BTW, the PS for the REX end does not have to be 24V.  The spec sheet says 10-24V is fine.  Just figure that a 12V supply with it ought to be capable of at about 2A.  They provide a 24V/1A supply just because it is smaller and cheaper--and because their device's internal switching regulator can handle that.
  
 Have a great weekend all!
  
 --Alex C.
 UpTone Audio


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Yeah thanks Mike!  BTW he has the Focusrite REDNETDI16 was it?  Anyway we should get a report on this DANTE to AES thing soon.
> 
> BJC cable on it's way yesterday!


 
  
 Turns out Amazon has the BJC ethernet cables, so I have one coming tomorrow for the Focusrite box.
  
 Speaking of the Focusrite box, it's sitting here now. I had it shipped overnight so I could play around with it over the weekend. I'll get it hooked up later today and see how it goes.  It's the Rednet D16 AES.


----------



## Luckbad

I ordered one of these as an inexpensive experiment:

TecNec DMX-3XM-CAT5 3-pin XLR Male to RJ45 Adapter-by-TecNec https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KUTR7MA/

It'll go into a Mutec MC-3+USB.

I've only tried USB and TOSLINK into it from the computer so far. My optical cable is pretty pedestrian but can do 192kHz, though I think USB sounds better from my PC.


----------



## roger7

superdad said:


> For the ICRON devices, only the faster Gigabit LAN versions have enough speed and buffer to handle an isochronous stream.  There are other aspects of Icron's ExtremeUSB and Simultaneous User tech which are quite interesting, but I am under a non-disclosure agreement with Icron and thus not sure what I can or can not reveal.


 
  
 Hi,
 Have you had opportunity to compare Icron Gigabit LAN USB extender with Intona?


----------



## Superdad

mhamel said:


> Turns out Amazon has the BJC ethernet cables, so I have one coming tomorrow for the Focusrite box.
> 
> Speaking of the Focusrite box, it's sitting here now. I had it shipped overnight so I could play around with it over the weekend. I'll get it hooked up later today and see how it goes.  It's the Rednet D16 AES.


 

 Hi Mike:
  
 Looking forward to your report about the Focusrite unit!
  
 And yes, the BlueJeans/Belden Cat6a cables are fantastic--I've been using a 25-ft run between direct connected my DAC-connected computer and my desktop machine (shared drives for music and for headless remote control; bypassing Ethernet switch really help) for about 2 years.  At the time I purchased a variety of Ethernet cables (specifically chosen based on various construction techniques--gauge, shielding, materials, bandwidth, etc.) including some Cat7.  The BlueJeans/bonded-pair Belden Cat6a (which, while shielded, does not tie the shield at either end) was quite obviously (relatively speaking still in the subtle changes area) the very best of the bunch.  The particular Cat7 (Kanex) I tried came in dead last in the 5-way, though I think it might have been a copper-clad aluminum construction.
  
 Ciao,
  
 ALEX


----------



## Superdad

roger7 said:


> Hi,
> Have you had opportunity to compare Icron Gigabit LAN USB extender with Intona?


 

 No.  I have not bought the Icron, and my early Intona is awaiting its turn for the firmware reprogrammer on its USA tour of users.  It presently won't work at all for me without a REGEN after it.  (Which is okay as I think it really needs sonically.)


----------



## mhamel

superdad said:


> Hi Mike:
> 
> Looking forward to your report about the Focusrite unit!
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hey Alex,
  
 I'm excited about the possibilities with Dante, even though it's really designed to be for much larger scale/more complex applications. I like the idea that if this works out well, I can route bit perfect audio to any of the systems I have in my home, which are already connected in some way to wired Gigabit. If would be nicer if the entry point for a Dante->AES interface wasn't so high, even though I realize that's not their primary target market. I wrote to them asking if they would be willing to put together a smaller DIY-centric version of https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-brooklyn-ii-pdk with thoughts of a simple 2 channel Dante->AES output module that supports the full 24/192 sample rate and doesn't break the bank.
  
 I should have the D16 up and connected in a bit, I'll report back on impressions once I've had some time to get things configured and operational.
  
   -Mike


----------



## jfrocke

RB2013
  
 I have an F-1 on order.  Currently the only USB "accessories" I am using are a powered USB hub followed by an AQVOX power injector.  Can you provide some guidance on what other item is the most beneficial with the F-1 card?  I am thinking Regen/Recovery/etc.  I don't really want to add a whole bunch of units as I think at some point the value of all the add-ons would be better spent on upgrading other components in my system, but I would be willing to invest $200-250 perhaps.
  
 Thanks


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Hi Robert:
> 
> Your enthusiasm in this thread and elsewhere is wonderful--and infectious.
> I mean no offense, but I've been watching this thread for some time, and that enthusiasm and your posts often run well ahead of the facts.  I really would not know where to begin in correcting some of what has been written here.
> ...


 

 Hi Alex - Wow that's quite a message - let's see if I can unpack some of this:
  
 First, I want to say I have a good deal of respect for you and John and what Uptone has done to improve USB audio and address some of it's many issues - and I do own and like the Regen.  Now I know you have deep investments and business interests notably your involvement with the Sonore and the new Micro-Rendu, as well as of course the Regen and it's follow on products - and so a commitment to USB and UpNP audio.  So please do not take offense as to what I'm about to say.
  


> I mean no offense, but I've been watching this thread for some time, and that enthusiasm and your posts often run well ahead of the facts.  I really would not know where to begin in correcting some of what has been written here.


 
 None taken - now this new area of Audio over IP is changing rapidly and evolving as we speak...I only post comments and facts from other notable sources.  I have an opinion but it is only that like every other person who posts her - including you.
  


> There is a LOT of misunderstanding about audio-over-IP for sure, and if eliminating USB and putting Ethernet into DACs was so simple you would have seen much more of it long ago


 
 Well it was done long ago with the Squeeze Box - as I understand it.  But the fact it is not in every DAC today does not mean it will not be in the future.  We already see sota DAC's without USB or i2s - just AES67 Ethernet RAVENNA.  The The Merging Technology NADAC's - sorry Alex that is a fact - not an opinion.  It is the first of many - that is my opinion.
 http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/impressions-the-merging-technology-nadac-mc-8-dsd-dac/.  Like the pre-USB 2.0 Audio Async days  - when USB was not the std - but that changed with that protocol development.  Audio over IP has now just recently evolved as well - with the advent of AES67 and the revisions to DANTE and RAVENNA to comply with this std.  And many ProAudio companies have climbed on board.  Sorry Alex that is a fact - not an opinion.  Now I believe that AES67 'will' become the defacto std in high end consumer audio - that is my opinion - like it or not...maybe a development like that would not match your business plan...so be it.
  


> But today I can at least correct what you wrote above:  The ICRON units--and all USB and Ethernet connection products--absolutely have oscillator clocks!


 
Now Alex that is not what I said - this is my direct quote - "I don't believe they need clocks..."  I have not opened the Startech yet to see their boards - they only arrived a day ago - and are sounding amazing.
 
But thank for the technical explaination, information and correction - what this forum is all about.
 


> So both of the common protocols used for audio--adaptive and asynchronous--are isochronous, the stream from the computer is EXACTLY the same in both cases.


 
 Thanks for the detailed explaination of ISO and ASYNC audio. 
  


> While we are more interested in what could be done with their SO-DIMM modules, if I was PS Audio, one of the first areas I'd look to for customizing/improving the REX end of the Icron RG2304GE-LAN boards would be the power supply, as stock it just uses DC-DC switching regulators to take that 24V down to 5V, 3.3V, and likely 1.2V for the core.
> 
> I'd say something about improving the REX's USB output signal integrity with some popular devices, but then the mods would probably delete this post.
> 
> BTW, the PS for the REX end does not have to be 24V.  The spec sheet says 10-24V is fine.  Just figure that a 12V supply with it ought to be capable of at about 2A.  They provide a 24V/1A supply just because it is smaller and cheaper--and because their device's internal switching regulator can handle that.


 
 Thanks for the suggestions!  You are welcome to PM any ideas on improving this amazing unit.  And the 12V power capability is very helpful.
  
 I just want to add on the XU208 F-1 - you where quiet dissmissive of this DDC and I have to say - in this case I'm sure glad I did not take your comments to heart - as the SQ I'm hearing is simply stellar. 
  
 As I always I appreciate your technical knowledge and welcome you to participate here when you have time.  And setting me straight - I have learned much from your comments!
  
 I look forward to your new creations - esp the new LPS power supply.
 Cheers!
 Bob


----------



## abartels

ccschua said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Used it in DualPC mode, indeed performed better.
> ...


 
 Hi, sorry, I didn't compare it to Bluejeans cable.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Turns out Amazon has the BJC ethernet cables, so I have one coming tomorrow for the Focusrite box.
> 
> Speaking of the Focusrite box, it's sitting here now. I had it shipped overnight so I could play around with it over the weekend. I'll get it hooked up later today and see how it goes.  It's the Rednet D16 AES.


 

 Damn - 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			










  
 I have to say I love this wacky thread!


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Hi,
> Have you had opportunity to compare Icron Gigabit LAN USB extender with Intona?


 
 Great question!
  


superdad said:


> Hi Mike:
> 
> Looking forward to your report about the Focusrite unit!
> 
> ...


 
 'The Blue Jeans bonded-pair Belden CAT6a'  Will order up one of those as well!
  


superdad said:


> No.  I have not bought the Icron, and my early Intona is awaiting its turn for the firmware reprogrammer on its USA tour of users.  It presently won't work at all for me without a REGEN after it.  (Which is okay as I think it really needs sonically.)


 
 Answer.
  


mhamel said:


> Hey Alex,
> 
> I'm excited about the possibilities with Dante, even though it's really designed to be for much larger scale/more complex applications. I like the idea that if this works out well, I can route bit perfect audio to any of the systems I have in my home, which are already connected in some way to wired Gigabit. If would be nicer if the entry point for a Dante->AES interface wasn't so high, even though I realize that's not their primary target market. I wrote to them asking if they would be willing to put together a smaller DIY-centric version of https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-brooklyn-ii-pdk with thoughts of a simple 2 channel Dante->AES output module that supports the full 24/192 sample rate and doesn't break the bank.
> 
> ...


 
 Let's start a letter/Email writing campaign to Focusrite.  Mike did you see the Dante AES will only output 2 channel at 96k - or do they have a new version out - that one was only $500.
  


jfrocke said:


> RB2013
> 
> I have an F-1 on order.  Currently the only USB "accessories" I am using are a powered USB hub followed by an AQVOX power injector.  Can you provide some guidance on what other item is the most beneficial with the F-1 card?  I am thinking Regen/Recovery/etc.  I don't really want to add a whole bunch of units as I think at some point the value of all the add-ons would be better spent on upgrading other components in my system, but I would be willing to invest $200-250 perhaps.
> 
> Thanks


 
 Yes I think that a Regen or Recovery would be the one item I would get - my preference is the Recovery (sorry Alex 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), but they are both very good..  And a low cost power solution for the Recovery - a 9VDC iPower for $49.
 Total $249.


----------



## Caper

roger7 said:


> Have you listened to the same chain without Intona? Like that:
> Intel Nuc-->Sbooster vbus blocker-->Supra USB cable-->Aqvox psu-->F1-->Oehlbach coax cable-->Hegel H80 coax1
> And differences you can describe?



Have not tried that really since I am happy with my setup for now.
Have no such Hi-Fi ears I can do anything else than a/b comparison by switching input.
But I can disconnect the Intona and try to listen for changes in SQ.
Not today but coming days.


----------



## rb2013

From Alex's thread - first review of the Singxer SU-1
  
 http://www.jplay.info/#!blank-2/fbb2v


----------



## roger7

caper said:


> Have not tried that really since I am happy with my setup for now.
> Have no such Hi-Fi ears I can do anything else than a/b comparison by switching input.
> But I can disconnect the Intona and try to listen for changes in SQ.
> Not today but coming days.


 
  
 So please, try and give us the impretion


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> From Alex's thread - first review of the Singxer SU-1
> 
> http://www.jplay.info/#!blank-2/fbb2v


 
 I wish the reviewer also compared to the F-1. On my initial read, I thought they were saying that they didn't think the F-1 was drastically better but that the SU-1 was noticeable to them. On second reading, I'm pretty sure they mean the SU-1 is better but not a night and day difference in their system as some people are saying here.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> I wish the reviewer also compared to the F-1. On my initial read, I thought they were saying that they didn't think the F-1 was drastically better but that the SU-1 was noticeable to them. On second reading, I'm pretty sure they mean the SU-1 is better but not a night and day difference in their system as some people are saying here.


 
 Hey we get a mention!  From Japan!
  


> Soon after the announcement of USB-to-S/PDIF (and I2S/DSD) conversion board "F-1" with the latest XMOS XU208, it has attracted a great attention with praise in Head-fi.org forum, which has become one of the hottest topics there.
> F-1 is for DIYers without housing.  SU-1 is a stand-alone product announced at the same time.


----------



## rb2013

A good explanation of the SU-1 and i2s over hdmi
 From the JPLAY Japan review of the Singxer SU-1:
 http://www.jplay.info/#!blank-2/fbb2v


> < HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD output >
> 
> For many users, its specifications are headache, as there exists no standards.
> SU-1 adopts LVDS (Low-Voltage Differential Signals) which can be conveyed via an HDMI cable.
> ...


----------



## rb2013

Also it looks like JCAT is coming out with a USB isolator...


----------



## rb2013

http://www.jplay.info/#!blank-2/fbb2v
  
 JPLAY review of the Singxer SU-1
 Interesting:
  


> Comparison with: Gustard U12, DAC-X20 internal USB-I2S/DSD board, Melodious MX-U8 ver1.7
> 
> No drastic change could be recognised, not as described in many posts by F-1 users in Head-fi.org forum.
> This might come from the fact that the merit of galvanic isolation of F-1 has been already realised in my environment thanks to the clean power supply and the USB isolator.
> ...


 
 Is this JCAT posting this?


> galvanic isolation of F-1 has been already realised in my environment thanks to the clean power supply and the USB isolator.


 
 Hard to believe he would not hear a difference from the better Crystek CCHD clocks in the SU-1 over the generic Chinese TXCO in the Gustard U12...hmmmm...
  
 He contradicts himself (could be a language thing): "No drastic change could be recognised, not as described in many posts by F-1 users in Head-fi.org forum." then says: "However, SU-1 is superior in all aspects such as resolution and richness of each tone in all the range.
 What I have found in common after listening to various genre of music is the lower gravity and even drier bass than XMOS U8, which has already reached a certain level.
 It might be a childish description, but I feel as if I had got a ticket of the best seat at last, although all my previous tickets had been in the first class category." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


> However, many posts by F-1 users suggest it would be worth trying either SU-1 or F-1, as they recognise a huge improvement in sound quality.


 
 Well I agree with that!
  
 I think it's a good review!?


----------



## rb2013

BTW that JCAT PCIe USB card is the bomb!~ $450!
 http://jplay.eu/jcat/
  
 $600 LAN cable!
 http://jplay.eu/jcat/


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> BTW that JCAT PCIe USB card is the bomb!~ $450!
> http://jplay.eu/jcat/


 

 You've tried it? I thought you just said you're using the PPAv2. How does it compare?


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> You've tried it? I thought you just said you're using the PPAv2. How does it compare?


 

 No - but it looks great and I know some folks who rave about it - way to rich for this guy!  I'm about out of audio budget as it is.
  
 Paul Pang also has the PPA V3 with OXCO clocks for around the same.
  
 We need to get rid of USB before I go broke!


----------



## sbgk

What do you do when you're a manufacturer that has released a device that is so good that it might undercut the sales of your more expensive product that is just about to be released ?


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> What do you do when you're a manufacturer that has released a device that is so good that it might undercut the sales of your more expensive product that is just about to be released ?


 

 Tell everyone you need both 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What do you do when you're a manufacturer that annouces a great audio product that is OEM sourced and already available.
  
 PS I wish Alex had gone into more detail on how this ICRON/Startech LAN USB extender improves the sound so much!   And I have heard of many folks with Intona issues with the need for frequent reprograming.   Since ICRON is ASIC based I doubt it can be re-programmed - but don't know for sure.
  
 If I get some time tomorrow will crack the cases open and post nudies.


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> No - but it looks great and I know some folks who rave about it - way to rich for this guy!  I'm about out of audio budget as it is.
> 
> Paul Pang also has the PPA V3 with OXCO clocks for around the same.
> 
> We need to get rid of USB before I go broke!


 

 That said if Mike says the REDNETD16 is really good - I'll list all my analog gear on audiogon and get the REDNET 3...and pray the wife does not find out.


----------



## rb2013

http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-2-0-rg2300a-core/
 Thinking about Alex's comments on the ICRON/Startech LAN boxes having clocks - the good news is they're likely to sound even better down the road once they have a 100 hundred hours on them...
  
 BTW this is the
USB 2.0 RG2300A Core SO-DIMM Form Factor  
 Info:
Features​ 
USB 2.0 throughputs up to 480 Mbps
USB extension over copper and fiber
Interoperability with RG2304 series of extenders and the RG2300
Extend up to 31 USB devices (including hubs)
Pin-for-pin compatibility with existing RG2100 and RG2300 Core hardware designs
​ _Ask your sales representative for additional features that may meet your specific requirements_​ Includes the ExtremeUSB® suite of features:​ 
Transparent USB extension
True plug and play; no software drivers required
Works with all major operating systems: Windows®, OS X®, and Linux®
​ 

  
  ​ http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-2-0-rg2300a-core/
  
 AND a new term - Extreme USB:
Includes the ExtremeUSB® suite of features:​ 

 
Transparent USB extension
True plug and play; no software drivers required
Works with all major operating systems: Windows®, OS X®, and Linux®
​ http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-2-0-rg2300a-and-rg2310a-core-modules/


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Let's start a letter/Email writing campaign to Focusrite.  Mike did you see the Dante AES will only output 2 channel at 96k - or do they have a new version out - that one was only $500.


 
  
 The Brooklyn II module works at up to 192k. The Rednet D16 AES uses a Brooklyn II module internally according to the diagnostics. 
  
 I am currently listening to it at 24/192KHz, and it sounds _absolutely_incredible_  
  
 I don't know if it's the benefits of taking USB out of the equation completely, the inherent benefits of AOE, or the fact that I can now sync the entire chain to the ultra precision master clock in my DAC, but this is a definite step up.  I want to give it more time before describing the differences I hear but as of right now, it is definitely a keeper.
  
 At first, It wasn't quite as plug-n-play as the Dante starter series made it seem - ie: it didn't like my LACP primary ethernet connection, so I just ran straight from the D16 to one of my motherboard Ethernet ports - it configured itself with local addressing and showed right up in the Dante Controller app. I had to spend some time getting the hang of making sure all of the latency settings between devices were where they should be, and there were a couple of hiccups in getting used to using a master clock for everything. However, once I figured that stuff out (and that I needed to set the second private network to "trusted" on my firewall), everything syncs up perfectly with < 1ms latency.  Running two channels of uncompressed 24/192 audio is consuming around 20Mbps of bandwidth on the network, which is barely a flicker for GigE.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> The Brooklyn II module works at up to 192k. The Rednet D16 AES uses a Brooklyn II module internally according to the diagnostics.
> 
> I am currently listening to it at 24/192KHz, and it sounds _absolutely_incredible_
> 
> ...


 

 Breaking new ground!  The first I have ever seen of the AES67  version of DANTE used for high end audio - Cheers to that!
  
 Now I wonder if it would sound as good - with the REDNET3 - and without the external clocking.  You are running AES out at 192k or SPDIF?
 The new SU-1 has word clk out on BNC - would that work for the REDNET's?  Maybe a cheap way to get CCHD low phase noise for cheap.
  
 I imagine the internal REDNET clocks are just XO's.
  
 Waiting to hear more on your results - and comparison to the F-1
  
 Cheers!
  
 BTW what PC CPU and OS?


----------



## rb2013

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/
  
 iFi has a 12V 1.8A iPower thinking of getting that for the Startech LAN REX or a DC iPurifer to use on the stock SMPS.  With the DC iPur I could use later with a cheap LPS like the TeraDak DC-30W


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Breaking new ground!  The first I have ever seen of the AES67  version of DANTE used for high end audio - Cheers to that!
> 
> Now I wonder if it would sound as good - with the REDNET3 - and without the external clocking.  You are running AES out at 192k or SPDIF?
> The new SU-1 has word clk out on BNC - would that work for the REDNET's?  Maybe a cheap way to get CCHD low phase noise for cheap.
> ...


 
  
  
 So far I haven't really wanted to stop listening to write much about it. Hahaha
  
 I've been trying out both 192KHz via the Dante Virtual Soundcard ASIO drivers and 96KHz via the WDM drivers.  Both work flawlessly. I can leave it in WDM mode for general use, gaming, etc... switch it over to ASIO when I want to just listen to music through JRiver or another player that supports ASIO output. I am using AES from the D16 into the Convert-2 and a Canare word clock cable between the two. The Dante Controller then picks up the the externally synced clock from the D16 and uses it as the master for all of the devices in the network.
  
 The differences to my ears so far have been in subtle details, spatial cues, the sense of "air" around an instrument and it's placement in space. There is a sense of dynamics and realism that go beyond the already great sound of the F-1. It's not easy to describe... listening for the specific differences, they are subtle changes, but they add up to a noticeable difference to my ears. If I try to describe it with an exaggerated visual sense - imagine looking at an amazing photograph of a scenic view. You can sense the depth, the colors are vivid and rich, the focus is perfect...  you can see the details, you can imagine you're there.... that to me is as good as I had heard in this setup with the Wyrd->F-1->AES/SPDF Cable->Convert-2.  Now stand in front of that same scenic view... in real life. You don't just sense the depth, you feel it through the additional visual and audible cues. The colors are beyond vivid and rich... they are real. The focus is not just sharp, it is dynamic and crystal clear.. you don't need to imagine you're there, because you _are_ there. As I said, an exaggerated visual analogy, but that's the general sense I get from this.
  
    -Mike


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> So far I haven't really wanted to stop listening to write much about it. Hahaha
> 
> I've been trying out both 192KHz via the Dante Virtual Soundcard ASIO drivers and 96KHz via the WDM drivers.  Both work flawlessly. I can leave it in WDM mode for general use, gaming, etc... switch it over to ASIO when I want to just listen to music through JRiver or another player that supports ASIO output. I am using AES from the D16 into the Convert-2 and a Canare word clock cable between the two. The Dante Controller then picks up the the externally synced clock from the D16 and uses it as the master for all of the devices in the network.
> 
> ...


 

 Great description - being a landscape photographer - I gave up even with a D5 mkiv - it was just impossible.  Yes depth of field - the human eyes like our ears are truly extrodinary.  I turned to oil painting instead!
  
 Being my Maggie 1.6qr are 5ft tall 2 ft wide panels they project a life sized image - my goal to produce all the other attributes to the impression of a live performance - it's getting close.
  
 I see your 16 does a wider range of sample rates then the 3 - the 3 must have only one 24.576Mhz clock and yours has both.

 REDNET 16 Supported sample rates
 44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 / 176.4 / 192 kHz (-4% / -0.1% / +0.1% / +4.167%) at 24 bit

 REDNET 3

 Supported sample rates
 44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 / 192 kHz


----------



## rb2013

Reading in the REDNET 3 manual - you can set the clock source to a couple of options - is that true for outputing - it looks like it.
 The SU-1 could provide the CCHD 24.576Mhz clock for the REDNET 3 - very cool!


----------



## rb2013

Tried this cable today with the F-1 and Startech LAN - I could not hear a difference from the $3 CAT5e.  BJC CAT6s on the the way.
  
 Startech CAT6a STP


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Reading in the REDNET 3 manual - you can set the clock source to a couple of options - is that true for outputing - it looks like it.
> The SU-1 could provide the CCHD 24.576Mhz clock for the REDNET 3 - very cool!


 
  
 I came across a good article when I was searching for some discussion about the quality of the clock in my DAC... http://pinknoisemag.com/pink-papers/pink-paper-002  - and a quote about my DAC from the article:
  


> "*Externally clocking the Dangerous Music CONVERT-2** – *The CONVERT-2 is a stereo DAC that showed no improvement when clocked externally, and in fact sounded a bit worse when it was. This is an indication that the CONVERT-2 is a solidly designed and implemented converter whose internal clock and PLL are expertly tuned to each other. The CONVERT-2 DAC is, therefore, a good candidate as a studio’s master clock and has shown itself to be when clocking converters that _do_ respond to external clocking."


 
  
 There is discussion in the article about listening for the impact of clock changes that describes some what I was hearing with the Dante/Focusrite setup over the F-1, too. It makes me think that it is indeed a combination of taking the USB chain out of the mix, taking advantage of the benefits of AOE, and having everything synced to one excellent master clock that are contributing to the improvements.
  
 I've got 29 days left to decide, but I'm already 99% sure the F-1/USB solution is going on the shelf as my backup option and the D16 is getting bolted into the rack for a permanent home.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> I came across a good article when I was searching for some discussion about the quality of the clock in my DAC... http://pinknoisemag.com/pink-papers/pink-paper-002  - and a quote about my DAC from the article:
> 
> 
> There is discussion in the article about listening for the impact of clock changes that describes some what I was hearing with the Dante/Focusrite setup over the F-1, too. It makes me think that it is indeed a combination of taking the USB chain out of the mix, taking advantage of the benefits of AOE, and having everything synced to one excellent master clock that are contributing to the improvements.
> ...


 

 Well you are lucky to have a DAC with those great clocks - my tube DAC's have good clocks but not word clock out unfortunately.
  
 It will be interesting see how it progresses with run time.
  
 The mighty F-1 falls to the REDNET 16 - but of course the RN16 is $1600!  So jealous LOL!


----------



## murphythecat

http://jplay.eu/jcat/
 will you try it RB?
  
 I must say, your discovering upgrades so often RB that ill be wathcing this thread often and wait a couple months before upgrading my setup. who know in one year where youll be
 crazy thread and very awesome!
  
 see you next year!


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Also it looks like JCAT is coming out with a USB isolator...




Link or reference?
Thanks.


----------



## sbgk

mhamel said:


> So far I haven't really wanted to stop listening to write much about it. Hahaha
> 
> I've been trying out both 192KHz via the Dante Virtual Soundcard ASIO drivers and 96KHz via the WDM drivers.  Both work flawlessly. I can leave it in WDM mode for general use, gaming, etc... switch it over to ASIO when I want to just listen to music through JRiver or another player that supports ASIO output. I am using AES from the D16 into the Convert-2 and a Canare word clock cable between the two. The Dante Controller then picks up the the externally synced clock from the D16 and uses it as the master for all of the devices in the network.
> 
> ...


 
 is the bass quality as good or better compared with the f1 ? It's possible to enhance detail to a hyper real effect, but the bass generally suffers as the balance has been shifted to the treble.


----------



## vincponc2610

Any opinion about the power supply part of SU-1 ?

  
  
 That does not seems impressive. I only see 2 ICs. So looks like integrated rectifier.
 One has a big radiator. 

  
  
 But it depends on LDO they used after it.
 Any idea about which LDO are on F-1 / SU-1 ?
 Looks like there are small LDO for each clock which is good.


----------



## ginetto61

sorry ... above my budget ...


----------



## mhamel

sbgk said:


> is the bass quality as good or better compared with the f1 ? It's possible to enhance detail to a hyper real effect, but the bass generally suffers as the balance has been shifted to the treble.




The balance of the overall sound hasn't shifted at all. It doesn't sound overly enhanced in any way. The bass, to my ears, is better than the F1.


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Link or reference?
> Thanks.


 

 Hi Alex,  in the review of the Singxer SU-1, I guess by (don't hold me to it) the Japanese JPLAY distributor mentions it.
  


> Others: USB isolator (to be announced soon as a new product in JCAT series)


 
  
 If you scroll to the bottom it's in english:
 http://www.jplay.info/#!blank-2/fbb2v


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> So far I haven't really wanted to stop listening to write much about it. Hahaha
> 
> I've been trying out both 192KHz via the Dante Virtual Soundcard ASIO drivers and 96KHz via the WDM drivers.  Both work flawlessly. I can leave it in WDM mode for general use, gaming, etc... switch it over to ASIO when I want to just listen to music through JRiver or another player that supports ASIO output. I am using AES from the D16 into the Convert-2 and a Canare word clock cable between the two. The Dante Controller then picks up the the externally synced clock from the D16 and uses it as the master for all of the devices in the network.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Mike - I was thinking about this last while listening to the F-1 with this ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB in the chain.
  
 It could be the galvanic isolation that the Ethernet connection is providing.
 How where you powering your F-1?  USB  or external power?


----------



## rb2013

vincponc2610 said:


> Any opinion about the power supply part of SU-1 ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Great question!  The LDO's are mentioned to be ADI ultra low noise ones - but not sure which.  This is why I actually prefer the F-1, more flexibility in power supply options,
  
 Here is my power supply chain from the wall:
 Teslaplex>Audience aR1p (AC balancing and filtering)>Art Audio PB4X4Pro (dedicated common and differetial mode AC line isolation and filtering)>Cerious Graphene Extreme power cord>TeraDak DC-30W R-core linear power supply>iFi DC iPurifier (filters noise out of the LPS power feed)>W4S Recovery(ultra low noise regulators 9VDC down to 5VDC)>iPurifer2(further power filtering and regulation)>F-1
  
 Obvioiusly this extreme PS chain will have far lower noise, an R-Core transformer, and linear regulated power - then this simple AC to DC board in the SU-1.
  
 So for me the additional $150 is spent on improving the PS chain.


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> http://jplay.eu/jcat/
> will you try it RB?
> 
> I must say, your discovering upgrades so often RB that ill be wathcing this thread often and wait a couple months before upgrading my setup. who know in one year where youll be
> ...


 

 Sorry for the confusing state of this thread - we have three threads going on at once.
  
 The original XU208 line of thought - F-1, SU-1, X-1, Pro4a
  
 The new development of adding the 1GB LAN USB extender and galvanic isolation to the USB data chain (as per the infamous PS Audio Youtube video) - with the very significant improvement in SQ - will start a breakoff thread today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
  
 The development of alternatives to USB and UpNP computer audio - the new AES67 Audio over IP Ethernet protocol - will get a separate thread up for this as well. 
 http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/11/4/aes67-what-is-it-and-why-should-you-care
  
 Things here should get a bit more focused after today.

 There are advantages to having it all in one thread - as there is overlap and interactions from all three of these.  And those of you who are knowledgeable and have been following this thread for a while - easy to follow these three main lines of discussion.  But to those new - it might seem a bit confusing.  Sorry for that!
  
 I want to thank everyone who has contributed - I have learn so much JUST THIS WEEK!  Computer audio is entering an important transition and maturity - but moving at light-speed.  So just trying to stay ahead of the curve and keep an eye on the developments for the very near future.  This thread does not operate in a vacuum - it's part of a grassroots feedback mechanism to the very talented audio designers and engineers here and abroad.  I hope we spur on the development of some really exciting new digital audio products - like a new class of AES67 Ethernet to SPDIF/i2s DDC's (preferably ext DC powered).
  
 This thread in just a few weeks has gained a world wide and popular status - Cheers!


----------



## ginetto61

vincponc2610 said:


> Any opinion about the power supply part of SU-1 ?
> That does not seems impressive. I only see 2 ICs. So looks like integrated rectifier.   One has a big radiator.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! you can always adopt a solution like the Hydra Z ... a DC socket on the back and bypass of the internal PS.
  

  
 then you can try any external ps you can find.
 This is what i would do all considered.
 No vibes or emi from the transformer ... i am a believer of transformers placed outside the circuits box.
 And it is also a reversible mod if you have to sell the unit.
 Regards, gino


----------



## Caper

Crazy thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just over one month since first post and now over 1000 posts.
 I have followed this pretty good but last week the amount of information is too much for me as a rookie in Hi-Fi.
  
 I am happy though, got me the F1 and Intona isolator and my main goal is achieved.
 To get the pc to sound better than a CD or DVD player.
  
 Now just have to get my friend here and listen.
 He just say the SQ of pc based music is garbage.
  
 Will continue follow this and other threads to see what my NEXT investment will be.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! you can always adopt a solution like the Hydra Z ... a DC socket on the back and bypass of the internal PS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It would be great if Singxer offered a DC verision of the SU-1


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Crazy thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for that - yes it's been a monumental week here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I'm happy your PC based audio finally beat the DVD.
  
 One listen he will be convinced.
  
 Exciting news!  A hightly  acclaimed *MUTEC MC-3+ Smart Clock USB  will be here soon! *

  
  
 http://mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php
 https://www.gearslutz.com/board/product-alerts-older-than-2-months/1044928-mutec-mc-3-smart-clock-usb-new-dimension-digital-audio.html
  
This $1100 USB DDC is right now the rage on CA - so it will be very tough competition for the F-1 (uber chained) - but I welcome the chance to hear this wonderful unit.


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> About Telegärtner RJ45 connectors, old news
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




Like already said in the other thread, new is only the hype 

And Viablue makes very good, german quality cables .. which also look good and are somewhat decently priced. Wont comment on cable sq cause I never ever heard any diffs in spite of trying all between $2, pure silver and $xxxx cables. If you ask me, the cable sound is a just scam with unicorns. YMMV


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Hi Mike - I was thinking about this last while listening to the F-1 with this ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB in the chain.
> 
> It could be the galvanic isolation that the Ethernet connection is providing.
> How where you powering your F-1?  USB  or external power?


 
  
 The F-1 is externally powered.


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for that - yes it's been a monumental week here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I visited him a week ago with my Baby Breeze feeding a 50 USD dac board and my wifes laptop.
 That combo played even with his CD player, a/b comparison.
 He played his best CD´s and I just streamed that same music through Tidal Hi-Fi.
  
 The baby Breeze and cheap dac board is far far behind my F1 chain and also told him that.
 Lets see if he visit and listen to my small system.
 Pretty sure he will be surprised!


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Like already said in the other thread, new is only the hype
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well I did a Ethernet cable faceoff last night - here was the results:
 Using the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender, I found some differences in cables - in terms of SQ.  Not tremendous - but definitely noticable.
  
 So here where the contenders:
 Startech CAT6 STP (pretty gold colored connectors)


 A CAT6 6inch flat cable:


 A CAT5e generic
  
 and one I had connecting one of my PCs to my cable modem router a generic yellow cable marked
 3ft CAT6 UTP 550Mhz
  
 So here were the results:
 1) CAT 6 UTP 550Mhz 3ft yellow - (just smoother in sound and better dimensionality)
 2) CAT6  UTP Flat 6inch - better then the pretty gold CAT6 (more neutral in balance, smoother)
 3) CAT6 STP gold plated connectors - almost a dead tie with the generic $3 CAT5e - not bad per se - the above better fort sure (a tad darker and detail rounded - less dimensional)
 4) CAT5e - just ok
  
 On the way the Blue Jeans CAT6a UTP 550Mhz...
  
 PS I really wanted the pretty gold colored connector one to win - it just looks prettier...but not sound wise


----------



## prot

For the beautiful cable fans

Sommercable http://info.sommercable.com/excelsior/2/classique/classique__50_patchkabel_cat7.html

Viablue http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/cables-audio-cables-ethernet/audiophonics-cable-patch-reseau-rj45-ethernet-highend-cat-50m-p-7178.html
Or any other of those nice viablue sleeve patterns http://m.ebay.de/itm/VIABLUE-Geflechtschlauch-Gewebeschlauch-verschiedene-Farben-und-Groessen-/291256443989

P.S.
Inside it may very well be the exact same wire

P.S2.
and some cool looking xlr/rca cables http://www.in-akustik.com/en/news/article/referenz-nf-2404/


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> For the beautiful cable fans
> Sommercable http://info.sommercable.com/excelsior/2/classique/classique__50_patchkabel_cat7.html
> Viablue http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/cables-audio-cables-ethernet/audiophonics-cable-patch-reseau-rj45-ethernet-highend-cat-50m-p-7178.html
> 
> May very well be the exact same wire


 

 $100 not bad, but still alot for a ethernet cable - CAT7 is shielded  - so far the UTP seems to sound better.


----------



## FredA

prot said:


> For the beautiful cable fans
> 
> Sommercable http://info.sommercable.com/excelsior/2/classique/classique__50_patchkabel_cat7.html
> 
> ...




Would be worthwhile trying supra's cat8. Available on ebay.


----------



## Yviena

Has anyone tried the new ifi Nano usb 3.0? Thinking about getting that one instead of the W4S Recovery+ 9v ipower.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> prot said:
> 
> 
> > For the beautiful cable fans
> ...


 
  
 The Audiophonics cable is very cheap, connectors only are $25 each......
  
 And, about using the shield, connecting it at SOURCE side ONLY, which is a common thing to do, makes it a UTP with earth shield WITHOUT having degradation from coupling ground


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> For the beautiful cable fans
> 
> Sommercable http://info.sommercable.com/excelsior/2/classique/classique__50_patchkabel_cat7.html
> 
> ...


 
 The In-Akustik's looking GREAT. Air as a dielectric still is the best, wasn't aware of their existence, could be a real killer, just my 2 cents..... 
  
 XLR 2x 0.75m €1.299
 RCA 2x 0.75m €1.199


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Has anyone tried the new ifi Nano usb 3.0? Thinking about getting that one instead of the W4S Recovery+ 9v ipower.


 

 I have the iFi USB2.0 + the iPurifier2 + the 9VDC iPower.  According to iFi that's pretty much the iUSB 3.0 (minus two additional ports and the USB3.0 plugin).
  
 It's very good - I would say the Recovery + a 9VDC iPower is slightly better.  In fact I need to sell my iUSB2.0
  
 Now the Recovery fed by a LPS and using a iPur2 is definitely better - but that is more money.
  
 I think either way a good power solution for the F-1
  
 Good Luck


----------



## rb2013

It's up - remember you heard it here first Enjoy!
  
AUDIO over IP - the coming wave! The AES67 and AVB Ethernet Protocols usher in a New Age of Computer Audio. http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio


----------



## onlythat

Yup. For the uninitiated and the tragically unhip, that's a PUC 2 Lite on the down low and an F-1 riding it bareback. 

Ohhhhhhhh -- Child! IT'S ON like Donkey Kong up in here!!!! 

rb- your reputation has all come down to..... 

 this


----------



## prot

onlythat said:


> Yup. For the uninitiated and the tragically unhip, that's a PUC 2 Lite on the down low and an F-1 riding it bareback.
> 
> Ohhhhhhhh -- Child! IT'S ON like Donkey Kong up in here!!!!
> 
> ...



Sounds like a very interesting comparison. Dont forget to post it 

abartels only linked those inakustik things for the cool looks .. otherwise I wont pay $1000 for a wire. Especially one full of air 
And btw, they do have another (much cheaper) 'air' series. http://www.in-akustik.de/en/cables-and-accessories/speaker-cable/excellence/exzellenz-atmos-air-0060222/


----------



## ginetto61

onlythat said:


> Yup. For the uninitiated and the tragically unhip, that's a *PUC 2 Lite *on the down low and an* F-1* riding it bareback. ...


 
  
 Hi ! i have a question
 i see that both the PUC2 Lite and F-1 are usb powered
*how do you power the two interfaces mentioned ?*
 if you intend to make a review please list also the other elements of the chain (i.e. isolators, reclockers, power supplies, etc.).
 Thanks and regards,  gino


----------



## vincponc2610

-


----------



## vincponc2610

abartels said:


> The In-Akustik's looking GREAT. Air as a dielectric still is the best, wasn't aware of their existence, could be a real killer, just my 2 cents.....
> 
> XLR 2x 0.75m €1.299
> RCA 2x 0.75m €1.199


 
 A 1.299 euros cable for a 300$ box ?
 not a bit of overkill ? 
  
 Chinese guys are not making amazing cables are ridiculously price ?
 They discounted all the gear, what about the cables ?


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> onlythat said:
> 
> 
> > Yup. For the uninitiated and the tragically unhip, that's a PUC 2 Lite on the down low and an F-1 riding it bareback.
> ...


 
  
 I know, I won't pay that too, but for the people who can spend that kind of money on cables, it surely could be interesting


----------



## abartels

vincponc2610 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > The In-Akustik's looking GREAT. Air as a dielectric still is the best, wasn't aware of their existence, could be a real killer, just my 2 cents.....
> ...


 
 What box? Who's talking about a box? A golden box, to transport the cables??
  
 Just kidding, no, of course not, those are interconnects, meant for ALL your XLR or RCA devices, not only for the $300 box 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Those are cables, and in my opinion they COULD be one of the VERY best, so, if interested, take a look, or read reviews, and if wanna buy them, buy them, if not interested, just ignore the post, ok?
  
  
 Keep up the good work guys


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> ...  I wont pay $1000 for a wire. Especially one full of air
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi ... and if it were full of nitrogen against oxidation ?
 Seriously, teflon foam for instance is a very good dieletric.
 There are many cables with teflon insulation that sound excellent.
 Regards, gino


----------



## abartels

ginetto61 said:


> prot said:
> 
> 
> > ...  I wont pay $1000 for a wire. Especially one full of air
> ...


 
 yes, and air still is the best Gino, that's why I reposted prot's link.
  
 Please forget it, NO cable wars here. I already regret posting it.


----------



## vincponc2610

abartels said:


> What box? Who's talking about a box? A golden box, to transport the cables??
> 
> Just kidding, no, of course not, those are interconnects, meant for ALL your XLR or RCA devices, not only for the $300 box
> 
> ...


 
 I was saying a box for the DDC.
 making fun of using a 1300E cable to connect to a 300$ DDC.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Yup. For the uninitiated and the tragically unhip, that's a PUC 2 Lite on the down low and an F-1 riding it bareback.
> 
> Ohhhhhhhh -- Child! IT'S ON like Donkey Kong up in here!!!!
> 
> ...


 

 Waiting for that showdown!


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Sounds like a very interesting comparison. Dont forget to post it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry - my money is going for LPS's for the ICRON/Startech 1 GB LAN USB boxes.
  
 Man this thing has about 70 hrs and is already better then out of the box.  Silly great


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> What box? Who's talking about a box? A golden box, to transport the cables??
> 
> Just kidding, no, of course not, those are interconnects, meant for ALL your XLR or RCA devices, not only for the $300 box
> 
> ...


 

 I have rolled through about 10-12 great interconnects -Nordost Valhalla, Synergistic Research Apex, Supra ISL Anniversery, etc...

 This is the best I have found the Aural Thrills Audio BCS active tube IC's - they run from my DAC to my int amp.  Another amazing audio product.  Rolled 6 different NOS 12au7's and settled on the Mullard's 1950's.  Roll a half dozen power cords for the tube shielding box and settled on the Shunyata Venom.  Audio OCD much?


> *Tube Powered Biased Cable System         *​ We truly believe that Aural Thrills Audio has created the finest cable in the world bar none. We know that there is no other cable like it in the world, period. In simple terms the shield is actively powered by a real tube amplifier. In complex words, the sound is indescribably incredible. If you have never splurged on a high end interconnect, this is the time. If you like the sound of tubes you will love this cable. Tube rolling, power
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

But also use their Silver active with Teflon connectors in my office system - they are excellent - esp for the $179 price.
 http://www.auralthrillsaudio.com


----------



## rb2013

vincponc2610 said:


> A 1.299 euros cable for a 300$ box ?
> not a bit of overkill ?
> 
> Chinese guys are not making amazing cables are ridiculously price ?
> They discounted all the gear, what about the cables ?


 

 How about a $6K DAC to a $1K amp?


----------



## rb2013

OK We have moved the AES67 discussion over to it's dedicated thread - did not have time to write-up the USB over Ethernet thread.
  
 Will try and do that this week - but here is an update:
  
 The ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender does improve with burnin (as @Superdad says it has clocks!) that makes sense. At 70 hrs even richer tone and the sound stage is widening even further, with even greater focus. Truly OUTSTANDING!
  
 I can't say thank you enough to Paul McGowen for posting that Youtube video on their upcoming LANRover product.   Imagine that one will be even better!
  
 The nonLAN Startech is do to arrive today according to Amazon.  So I'll have a chance tonight to give it a try and report the SQ vs the LAN version.
  
 Decided to not crack open the cases just yet on the LAN Startech - not at least for a couple of weeks.  As that would likely void the Amazon return policy and warranty.
 The REX unit does say on it 24V - not just the wall wart.  I'm hesitant to run it on 12V.  So for now will get a iFi DC iPurifier to filter out some of the SMPS noise.   I will reach out to ICRON and Startech to confirm running it on a different voltage will not harm the unit - esp in data only mode (no USB devices drawing power from the USB ports), before using a 12V LPS as @Superdad suggested
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Yup. For the uninitiated and the tragically unhip, that's a PUC 2 Lite on the down low and an F-1 riding it bareback.
> 
> Ohhhhhhhh -- Child! IT'S ON like Donkey Kong up in here!!!!
> 
> ...


 

 Oh one quick suggestion - place the Mylar bag under the F-1 as it does have electrical leads on the bottom.  Would not want to see something short from contact on the metal PUC2 lite case.  I have some great, cheap case suggestions if you decide to keep the F-1.  It'll also need about 200 hrs to burn in - maybe a bit more.
  
 If the $180 F-1 can even come close in your system to the $480 PUC2 lite - then that would at least qualify it as a audio bargain.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Yviena

A new ipurifier for SPDIF will also come out soon.
  
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/ifi-audios-spdif-ipurifier-debuts-at-fujiya-avic-spring-2016/


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> A new ipurifier for SPDIF will also come out soon.
> 
> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/ifi-audios-spdif-ipurifier-debuts-at-fujiya-avic-spring-2016/


 

 Nice!  Not a fan of the iDAC's but love their power and data stuff...
  
 BTW the W4S Remedy is really good - SPDIF reclocker using Crystek CCHD clocks - on my NOS R2R PCM1704UK modded DAC60


----------



## rb2013

Interesting:
  
 http://www.resolutionaudio.com/?page_id=67
  
 Resolution's Pont Neuf
  

  
  


> features
> 
> Power for the unit is provided by the USB port – no additional power adaptor is necessary.
> Connects directly to your home network via ethernet, or wirelessly by adding a wireless converter.
> ...


 


> The Cantata Pont Neuf allows for the compatibility and simplicity of a USB-based audio source without the physical limitations normally associated with USB connections; the limit of a cable to 15 feet in length. If your computer-based library isn’t within that distance, USB is no longer an option and more complex solutions are normally required.
> The Pont Neuf overcomes this limitation by creating a “virtual” USB connection which can travel over your home network to the Cantata Music Center up to 96kHz. Regardless of how far away the host computer is, as long as the devices are on the same network, all of the benefits of a USB source device are retained. If an ethernet connection isn’t available, adding a WiFi bridge can deliver the same connection wirelessly.
> Configuration is a snap since the Pont Neuf requires no additional drivers. Everything required to use the device is built into the Windows and Macintosh operating systems.
> In short, you’ll hear the quality you’ve come to expect from Resolution Audio with the convenience and flexibility of a computer-based music library.


----------



## ciphercomplete

293 new posts since I last posted.  I'm not reading all of that lol.
  
 ANYWAY, I'm a little disappointed with the ethernet->usb stuff.  I already had a medical grade ethernet isolater and I didn't need to send the signal over LAN so I bought the Startech 1 port deal http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2001EXT2/dp/B008ABNZOE?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01
  
 Here's how I rank my different configurations:
  
 1. PC --> Uptone Regen --> F-1 XMOS
  
 2. PC --> F-1 Xmos
 3. PC --> Uptone Regen --> Schiit USB Gen 3
 4. PC --> USB Gen 3
 5. (tie) StarTech -->Uptone Regen --> F-1
 5. (tie) StarTech -->Uptone Regen --> USB Gen 3
  
  
 So, a couple of things.  The host unit of the Startech is powered by your pc's usb power but the remote unit has a cheap switching power supply to give it power.  This is the unit that plugs directly into your dac or usb to spdif device.  I didnt have a suitable plug to power the startech with my linear power supply so I bought this but I have no idea when it will arrive since the shipper isn't Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Super-Power-Supply%C2%AE-5-5x2-1mm-4-8x1-7mm/dp/B00EA4Q60K?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
  
 I will report back back what I hear.


----------



## Caper

Just thinking of a change in my F1 chain would be worth it.
 Found a used Uptone Regen (amber) and a Sbooster lps to the regen, about half price from buying new ones.
  
 My chain now:
  
 Intel NUC
 Sbooster vbus blocker
 Supra USB cable
 Aqvox psu
 Intona isolator
 Supra USB cable
 F1
 Oehlbach coax cable
 Hegel H80 coax 1
  
 Maybe better chain?:
  
 Intel NUC
 Sbooster vbus blocker
 Supra USB cable
 Aqvox psu
 Intona isolator
 Sbooster lps
 Uptone Regen
 F1
 Oehlbach coax cable
 Hegel H80 coax1
  
 Inputs?
 Can buy the Regen+Sbooster lps for about 250 USD


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> 293 new posts since I last posted.  I'm not reading all of that lol.
> 
> ANYWAY, I'm a little disappointed with the ethernet->usb stuff.  I already had a medical grade ethernet isolater and I didn't need to send the signal over LAN so I bought the Startech 1 port deal http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2001EXT2/dp/B008ABNZOE?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01
> 
> ...


 

 Well I told you guys to wait until I tested the nonLAN Startech - which arrived today.  Worse then a dud - it was popping and clicking on 192k audio.  Obviously can't handle 480bps
  
 And the sound was awful!  This is the Rextron - rebranded Startech that Alex had linked to.
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-2-0-Over-Cat5-Extender-Extension-USB2004EXTV/dp/B00T9RTT2U?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
  
 Sorry but it got to be the high road (and expensive one) to get the benefit of this USB over Ethernet.  The Startech 1GB LAN version is the one.
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00
  
 Now I just hope Amazon will let me return this one.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Just thinking of a change in my F1 chain would be worth it.
> Found a used Uptone Regen (amber) and a Sbooster lps to the regen, about half price from buying new ones.
> 
> My chain now:
> ...


 

 That was a score!  Nice going  How are you powering the Intona?  I see a VBUS blocker so it's not coming from the PC


----------



## Caper

rb2013 said:


> That was a score!  Nice going  How are you powering the Intona?  I see a VBUS blocker so it's not coming from the PC


 
 Intona powered by Aqvox psu.
  
 Pretty happy with the chain since it finally beats CD/DVD players 
 Maybe the chain with Uptone Regen and the Sbooster is better?
https://www.sbooster.com/botw-pp-eco-5v-6v/regen-usb-hub
  
 If using the second chain I need to remove vbus blocker or feed the Intona by the Aqvox...don´t know what to do yet.


----------



## ciphercomplete

I may get the Gigabit version.  Right now the Regen into the F-1 is plenty good.


----------



## roger7

caper said:


> Intona powered by Aqvox psu.
> 
> Pretty happy with the chain since it finally beats CD/DVD players
> Maybe the chain with Uptone Regen and the Sbooster is better?
> ...


 
  
 I think is cheaper to buy Teradak DC-30W and sbooster


----------



## rb2013

caper said:


> Intona powered by Aqvox psu.
> 
> Pretty happy with the chain since it finally beats CD/DVD players
> Maybe the chain with Uptone Regen and the Sbooster is better?
> ...


 

 It'll be interesting to see.  I think this kind of system experimentation can really bare fruit.  Then just sell what you don't need.


----------



## rb2013

A couple of posts I found today from a CA thread: I wonder what became of this project?
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/lan-input-dacs-21722/index5.html


> 12-29-2014, 08:41 PM#113​​
> *Superdad*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## onlythat

Prot- I shall indeed post the comparison. Gino- the power 'lineage' is FAR less complex than ol' rb's. It's simply a Mac mini with two Audioquest Jitterbugs (one in series with USB cable and one in parallel in an unused USB port), a split Litespeed 2G USB cable (an rb fave) with power lead plugged into my small Teradak X1/x2 linear power supply which can power either the PUC or now the F-1. I have tried the regen actually with the PUC in the past and it only hardened the sound. The jitterbug on the other hand did to the sound what I had hoped the Regen would- make it less digital. Yes- I tried an LPS with the regen. Better than an SMPS but still a step backwards. So the Jitterbugs stayed and the Amber regen went.

Thus far- rb is bang on about the reliability of the F1. ( I got burned on the Mx u8 which dropped out and clicked all the time. That's why I didn't order the SU1-- too much money to gamble with). But this F-1 has now been playing in the background for break in constantly without a single issue or dropout for two days continuously! It was also recognized immediately by my computer and connected as a USB device instantly. Zero issues. The PUC similarly NEVER has dropouts or issues and was immediately recognized etc. so at the very least, to float my canoe, the F-1 will need to be just as reliable. 

Already the F-1 in the very brief time I've had to compare, has demonstrated huge sound staging and is perhaps slightly more lit up on top than the PUC, but it is clearly settling in. There was definitely not as much bass as with the PUC on my brief day one listen but that is improving. I thought I distinctly heard soundstage 'height'- which is an impressive feat and one I'm not sure even the mighty PUC manages. 

Thus far the F-1 is easily surpassing any other of rb's recommended converters - that's for sure. I wish I had more time to really closely a/b against PUC but haven't except for brief hour or so when I first got it and took that pic. (I've since put a rubber footer between PUC and F-1 to prevent shorts). 

I can tell already the F-1 is certainly gonna end up being in the same league as the PUC and may even have already shown me signs of outstaging it as regards lateral spread, depth and even 'height'. Incidentally- another reason the PUC is so musical seems to be its timing- the PRaT it has- and the F-1 is showing early signs of possibly being even a bit pacier than the PUC. Jazz in my brief session with the F-1 definitely had my toes a tappin'. 

Will keep ya posted. By the way- I certainly feel these elite DDCs have contributed as much or more (probably more) sonically to my system and ultimately, to my music, than most amplifiers I've owned. You may not be able to have a system without an amplifier granted, but the music coming out of the speakers is eminently more listenable and enjoyable with a great DDC. The PUC is certainly that and the F-1 is shaping up in that direction...


----------



## rb2013

2nd interesting post from CA thread on USB over Ethernet:
  


> 12-29-2014, 11:51 PM#121​​
> *Superdad*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Prot- I shall indeed post the comparison. Gino- the power 'lineage' is FAR less complex than ol' rb's. It's simply a Mac mini with two Audioquest Jitterbugs (one in series with USB cable and one in parallel in an unused USB port), a split Litespeed 2G USB cable (an rb fave) with power lead plugged into my small Teradak X1/x2 linear power supply which can power either the PUC or now the F-1. I have tried the regen actually with the PUC in the past and it only hardened the sound. The jitterbug on the other hand did to the sound what I had hoped the Regen would- make it less digital. Yes- I tried an LPS with the regen. Better than an SMPS but still a step backwards. So the Jitterbugs stayed and the Amber regen went.
> 
> Thus far- rb is bang on about the reliability of the F1. ( I got burned on the Mx u8 which dropped out and clicked all the time. That's why I didn't order the SU1-- too much money to gamble with). But this F-1 has now been playing in the background for break in constantly without a single issue or dropout for two days continuously! It was also recognized immediately by my computer and connected as a USB device instantly. Zero issues. The PUC similarly NEVER has dropouts or issues and was immediately recognized etc. so at the very least, to float my canoe, the F-1 will need to be just as reliable.
> 
> ...


 

 Good news so far!  Give it plenty of run time - 200 hrs at least before any real critical eval.  As the bass will deepen and the tone gain richness.
 I loved the PUC2 Lite - and it does bass so extremely well.  So after the F-1 it's my next favorite.  But give the F-1 some time - it's magic takes some time for the mind to digest and adjust too.  Spatial ambient clues of an extreme nature!
  
 PS I completely agree on what these 'little' devices do - I'm shocked by it really.  Never in my wildest imagination would have thought they could achieve such audio changes - for the very good.
  
 BTW Many on the CA thread who have had both - think the PUC2 sounded better then the Berkeley USB.
 So Cheers to that!


----------



## rb2013

More good stuff on USB versus Ethernet - or some combination of the two.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/lan-input-dacs-21722/index6.html
  


> 12-30-2014, 12:46 AM#129​​
> *Superdad*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## onlythat

This just in: significant other in nearby room trying to sleep so I can't turn it up much, but at the very upper limit of late night approved listening levels, the staging with the F-1 on the Bill Evans track 'Detour Ahead (take 2) as streamed from Tidal through Audirvana+ is positively cavernous, with one of those 'close your eyes (or don't) and the speakers don't exist; just the music' type deals. Also there's a LOT of detail (people talking and glasses clinking together etc) on offer. Yes- this is definitely better than hour one with the F-1  I'm tapping my feet even at these low levels so this thing can definitely boogie too. Yep- the F-1 is shaping up to be no joke. 
 I just really want a carbon fiber box so I can have a carbon fiber F1 like Schumacher. 

Really staging and PRaT are damned impressive!! Could it be this newer xmos technology removes even more noise/signal jitter/timing error etc so the timing in particular is even crisper than with existing technologies? Might be...

I wanna add that if the PUC outperforms the BADA and the F-1 ends up outperforming the PUC (and that's a big 'if'), then rb just gave us all a 180 dollar piece of gear that outperforms a 2000 dollar piece of gear! A neat trick, eh? It's a good time to be an audiophile. Finally.


----------



## rb2013

Where is this wonderful device!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  I'm hoping coming soon!  Wondering if this is what the ICRON ASIC 1GB LAN USB extender does in some fashion - break the USB PHY apart, transmit it, then reassemble it - clean from all the PC junk...
  


> 01-01-2015, 12:39 PM#173​​
> *Superdad*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> This just in: significant other in nearby room trying to sleep so I can't turn it up much, but at the very upper limit of late night approved listening levels, the staging with the F-1 on the Bill Evans track 'Detour Ahead (take 2) as streamed from Tidal through Audirvana+ is positively cavernous, with one of those 'close your eyes (or don't) and the speakers don't exist; just the music' type deals. Also there's a LOT of detail (people talking and glasses clinking together etc) on offer. Yes- this is definitely better than hour one with the F-1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 My 'reputation' remains unsullied!
  
 Yes! SS is just cavernous  - Miles - 'Sketches of Spain' SACD that I digitalized at 32/176k playing on my office system as I write this.  Mind blowing horn work - he's right here!  Playing behind me I swear.
  
 PS You should hear it with a W4S Recovery/LPS and this freaking 1GB LAN USB Etherent deal - just crushes my old $30K analog rig to pieces


----------



## onlythat

Yes- soundstage shaping up to be cavernous as advertised; but as for your hard-won reputation and its potential degree of sullification, well... we'll just have wait for more break-in before deciding with just how big a boot (if at all) the PUC gets booted l!  Preliminarily I am indeed suspecting you will still be able to leave your house without a trench coat, a fake moustache and a rakishly tilted beret. 
 Of course, if that is already your preferred daily attire, then no issue 

I definitely want a Wyred Revovery. Man! do I need yet another LPS for that or can I use the DC out from my Teradak like I did for the regen?


----------



## wakka992

Hi guys,
  
 for ensuring galvanic isolation on the USB to Ethernet extender, is there any Ethernet Cable without copper out there? I don't know, a short fibre optic one?  
  
 I think that otherwise Power on Erhernet would be available in the connection nullifying the Galvanic Isolation...


----------



## Caper

Playing with my F1 chain and again impressed how it sounds.
 My Hegel H80 pushes my small Klipsch to new hights.
  
 95% volume playing Boris Blank Fat Roller.
 Streaming Tidal Hi-Fi.
 So smooth and detailed and full of bass even if I am pushing the system to maximum potential.
 It doesn´t get better than this from such a small system.


----------



## Currawong

The box arrived and I've been having fun with drills and files. Now I'm going to have to unsubscribe I think, lest I start getting tempted to buy more gear to tweak with!


----------



## roger7

wakka992 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> for ensuring galvanic isolation on the USB to Ethernet extender, is there any Ethernet Cable without copper out there? I don't know, a short fibre optic one?
> 
> I think that otherwise Power on Erhernet would be available in the connection nullifying the Galvanic Isolation...


 
  
 First, ethernet connection implies galvanic isolation as a standard (if we are talking of real USB ethernet extenders). Otherwise one broken device on the network would be able to destroy other devices on that network. And RJ45 cables are made of copper
 Second, there are fiber connections but are mostly used for longer runs and greater speeds than standard 5e (or 6/6a/7) RJ45 cables. And of course fiber optics need different NIC (not standard RJ45 port). Sure, there are USB fiber extenders.


----------



## wakka992

roger7 said:


> First, ethernet connection implies galvanic isolation as a standard (if we are talking of real USB ethernet extenders). Otherwise one broken device on the network would be able to destroy other devices on that network. And RJ45 cables are made of copper
> Second, there are fiber connections but are mostly used for longer runs and greater speeds than standard 5e (or 6/6a/7) RJ45 cables. And of course fiber optics need different NIC (not standard RJ45 port). Sure, there are USB fiber extenders.




Thanks for the reply, I thought that because of Power Over Ethernet and Copper cable a galvanic isolation wouldn't be possible.

I saw some Fiber Usb extender, that's why I asked for the fiber optic ethernet cable

BTW what do you mean by "real ethernet Usb extender"? The one that goes on LAN only?


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Yes- soundstage shaping up to be cavernous as advertised; but as for your hard-won reputation and its potential degree of sullification, well... we'll just have wait for more break-in before deciding with just how big a boot (if at all) the PUC gets booted l!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No I'm a Blue Jeans kinda guy - cables and pants.
  
 What voltage is your TeraDak set for?  You can adjust to 9VDC to use with the Recovery with an internal screw pot.
  
 On the LAN thing - I can explain in terms a 4th grader could understand - IT SOUNDS AMAZING!  And really for me that's all I need - my ears don't lie.  And they are telling me that a well fed F-1 and this 1GB LAN USB are a killer combo.  It's super easy and was as simple to install as plugging in a USB cable.  Worked like a charm - simple PC reboot and away you go.
  
 Now for the how's and why's well - See post #1103 for a possible explaination.  Certainly the galvanic isolation must help. See Paul McGowen's Youtube video.
  
 Looking forward to more updates!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> for ensuring galvanic isolation on the USB to Ethernet extender, is there any Ethernet Cable without copper out there? I don't know, a short fibre optic one?
> 
> I think that otherwise Power on Erhernet would be available in the connection nullifying the Galvanic Isolation...


 
 Well I tried this Medical grade Ethernet galvanic isolator - and it worked great - but did nothing for the sound but darken it.  So out it went.
  
 As long as you use a UTP unshielded cable or a STP with the shield disconnected at one end - you have galvanic isolation.
  
  
 http://www.baaske-medical.de/en/Network-Isolator-MED-MI-1005?x1420a=44je9ad96oo417jcistdh4bqd3


----------



## rb2013

currawong said:


> The box arrived and I've been having fun with drills and files. Now I'm going to have to unsubscribe I think, lest I start getting tempted to buy more gear to tweak with!


 

 Nice case work!  You are more patient then me - filing that square hole.
  
 Today I'm going to try some 3M RFI/EMI shielding on the inside of my case, just to see if that does anything.
  
 Yes this thread can get expensive.
  
 Just ordered this 24V LPS last night for the receiving end of the 1GB LAN USB (REX), will add a DC iPurifier once I sell some other stuff.  At least I'll get that 24V SMPS out of the system.  The other end sender (LEX) is powered by a iPower 5VDC.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/161870356771?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Thanks for the reply, I thought that because of Power Over Ethernet and Copper cable a galvanic isolation wouldn't be possible.
> 
> I saw some Fiber Usb extender, that's why I asked for the fiber optic ethernet cable
> 
> BTW what do you mean by "real ethernet Usb extender"? The one that goes on LAN only?


 

 There is no power over ethernet on the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender - it has a separate 24VDC power unit for the receiver (REX).


----------



## jabbr

> Well I tried this Medical grade Ethernet galvanic isolator - and it worked great - but did nothing for the sound but darken it.  So out it went.
> 
> As long as you use a UTP unshielded cable or a STP with the shield disconnected at one end - you have galvanic isolation.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The *ACOUSENCE – GISO GB is a much better LAN isolator, specifically made for use with Audio over IP.*
*I put it in and never wanted to remove it again.*
  
*Better than any non-audio/medical device.*


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> The *ACOUSENCE – GISO GB is a much better LAN isolator, specifically made for use with Audio over IP.*
> *I put it in and never wanted to remove it again.*
> 
> *Better than any non-audio/medical device.*


 

 How much is the the GB one?


----------



## BrainFood

rb2013 said:


> How much is the the GB one?


 
  
 350 euros
  
 http://audiosoulstore.com/streamers-servers-lan/223-giso-gb.html


----------



## mourip

currawong said:


> The box arrived and I've been having fun with drills and files. Now I'm going to have to unsubscribe I think, lest I start getting tempted to buy more gear to tweak with!


 
  
 Could you possibly give me an idea how long the box is? Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Thanks for the reply, I thought that because of Power Over Ethernet and Copper cable a galvanic isolation wouldn't be possible.
> 
> I saw some Fiber Usb extender, that's why I asked for the fiber optic ethernet cable
> 
> BTW what do you mean by "real ethernet Usb extender"? The one that goes on LAN only?


 

 Yes it has to be 1GB LAN version.
  
 I believe the optical are for extending maybe 10/100MB over longer distances.  I tested the USB shield with a continuity tester  - yes it is galvanically isolated.


----------



## rb2013

brainfood said:


> 350 euros
> 
> http://audiosoulstore.com/streamers-servers-lan/223-giso-gb.html


 

 Och!  Think I'm good - I tested the Startech 1GB LAN version - it is galvanically isolated from USB input to USB output.
  
 Now its spending to upgrade the PS on the REX end - as @Superdad says it has clocks


----------



## leggoslave

mourip said:


> Could you possibly give me an idea how long the box is? Thanks!


 
  
 I've bought the same box and will be receiving it tomorrow hopefully. It can be purchased off eBay; ..here.
  
 Dimensions:


----------



## roger7

wakka992 said:


> Thanks for the reply, I thought that because of Power Over Ethernet and Copper cable a galvanic isolation wouldn't be possible.
> 
> I saw some Fiber Usb extender, that's why I asked for the fiber optic ethernet cable
> 
> BTW what do you mean by "real ethernet Usb extender"? The one that goes on LAN only?


 
  
 For sending power over ethernet you have to have special PoE ports.

 "Real ethernet Usb extender" - one that can be plugged to LAN. Of course you can always connect sender and receiver directly, omitting a LAN switch.
 Like this one, 4-port, gigabit, $479.99
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2001EXT2/dp/B008ABNZOE?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01
 Others ethernet Usb extenders just use ethernet cable to physically connect sender and receiver side directly. But can not be plugged to LAN because they don't meet ethernet standards.


----------



## BrainFood

SPDIF cable length  
  
 So I own an old Stereovox HDXV one metre length spdif cable, which received positive reviews a decade ago. Being under 1.5 metres*, is it likely to have an audible effect between F1 and DAC?
  
 * http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm


----------



## roger7

There is also German afi and afi USB solution to transmitt USB signal from computer over fibre optics and then reclock the signal and send digial to DAC.
 http://www.artistic-fidelity.de/index.php/en/usb-module
  
 Some find it better then Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB (use google translate):
 http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3515&start=45


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> For sending power over ethernet you have to have special PoE ports.
> 
> "Real ethernet Usb extender" - one that can be plugged to LAN. Of course you can always connect sender and receiver directly, omitting a LAN switch.
> Like this one, 4-port, gigabit, $479.99
> ...


 

 I have both - the LAN is awesome - the non LAN one sucks, couldn't even handle 192k without popping and clicking.  Sound was miserable


----------



## rb2013

brainfood said:


> SPDIF cable length
> 
> So I own an old Stereovox HDXV one metre length spdif cable, which received positive reviews a decade ago. Being under 1.5 metres*, is it likely to have an audible effect between F1 and DAC?
> 
> * http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm


 

 Never heard that cable - so I couldn't say


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> There is also German afi and afi USB solution to transmitt USB signal from computer over fibre optics and then reclock the signal and send digial to DAC.
> http://www.artistic-fidelity.de/index.php/en/usb-module
> 
> Some find it better then Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB (use google translate):
> http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3515&start=45


 

 That's interesting.
  
 But I'd go with the 'PS Audio LANRover' kind of solution:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g


----------



## rb2013

Wonder if Uptone has some USB over Ethernet device coming out?


----------



## Albrecht

deleted.... redundant


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> But I'd go with the 'PS Audio LANRover' kind of solution:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g


 
  
 http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-lanrover/


----------



## prot

Looks like you are doing a serious comparison there. Keep em coming, I am really curious if the F1 can finally outgun the 10years old PUC in terms of SQ. 
But I doubt that any china device can equal PUC's stability .. that thing works like a rock .. a german rock that is


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Looks like you are doing a serious comparison there. Keep em coming, I am really curious if the F1 really can finally outgun the 10years old PUC in terms of SQ.
> But I doubt that any china device can equal PUC's stability .. that things works like a rock .. a german rock that is


 

 Let the haters hate...BTW you did a pretty good number on that great CA thread on audio over IP...nice work(sarc).
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/lan-input-dacs-21722/


----------



## rb2013

The Blue Jeans CAT6a 625Mhz Ethernet cable arrived today - oh yeah it's the bomb!
  
 Sound improved immediately when inserted in the between LEX and REX on the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender.
 More space, air, focus - not super dramatic - but now even  minor improvements noticible and important.  I imagine with some run time will get even better.
  
 Well worth the $21!! times 5
*Cat 6a Patch Cords--BJC C6AP UTP​* https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/index.htm


----------



## roger7

caper said:


> Playing with my F1 chain and again impressed how it sounds.
> My Hegel H80 pushes my small Klipsch to new hights.
> 
> 95% volume playing Boris Blank Fat Roller.
> ...


 
  
 Please, do not forget to make comparison without Intona in the chain 
 I wonder how much improvement does Intona


----------



## mourip

leggoslave said:


> I've bought the same box and will be receiving it tomorrow hopefully. It can be purchased off eBay; ..here.
> 
> Dimensions:


 
  
 Thanks. Much appreciated!


----------



## Albrecht

don't know about that, but that Ethernet to Ethernet Bridge Dongle that runs something like AES67 protocol sounds A-Mazing.
  
 Where is that guy?


----------



## Albrecht

+1
  
 Thanks very much


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> don't know about that, but that Ethernet to Ethernet Bridge Dongle that runs something like AES67 protocol sounds A-Mazing.
> 
> Where is that guy?


 

 That's Superdad from Uptone - of Regen fame.  I would love to hear they are working on it.  Not that my audio budget is about blown - but these damn things work, I simply can't believe what I'm hearing.  So if I have to sell all my analog stuff - I'm game


----------



## Albrecht

Hi
  
 Yep. I follow UPTone. Thanks.
  
 That's so awesome that the ICron works great. It totally makes sense that this is amazing!!! I would try it, - but I get a microrendu in 2 days, - my MacMini USB ports died, & I hate being on the software developer's (Rental model) upgrade merry-go-round.
  
 I have my APL Universal, & I have heard few better; even Meitner.
  
 IF I have to leave APL-land, - it'll be with a NADAC & something like UPtone's or Rednet's RTP/UDP.  I might still do Roon on one of monster MACs in the basement, - but only if my APL gets eclipsed substantially by a NADAC.
  
 For someone like you, - I can totally see the ICron/Lanrover deal.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi
> 
> Yep. I follow UPTone. Thanks.
> 
> ...


 

 Love my APL NWOjr - now even better!  Soon all of these totl DAC;s will have REVENNA or DANTE AES67 Ethernet RJ45's  We just need someone like XMOS to do the codecs on a XMOS 200 series then we are off!
  
 The microrendu is an amazing piece of gear and if Alex at Uptone like it - it has to be good.  I reposted some select choice posts of his from this epic CA thread - if you read those he is not a big fan of UpNP (who is except Jesus at Sonore).  Give it a read if you have a chance - in a page and a half of posts pretty much lays out Audio over IP - and why UpNP is such a PIA.
  
 Alex over a yr ago was gungho on this new audio over IP product  - then nothing!  Layed out details and all (see my post #1103 here (page 74).  Seemed like it was well along in the develop process as they were shopping OEMs.
  
 Great stuff!
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio/15#post_12551906


----------



## Albrecht

hi,
  
 Thanks again for all your great work and links. Man, - you do more excellent work and testing in a few hours that I've seen anyone else do in months or longer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Bloody amazing!!
  
 THANK YOU!!
  
 It would be SO AWESOME if there was gigabit LAN "converter" running AES67/Ravenna from RJ45 to COAX/SPDIF that was an F-1-like deal I would be all over it....
  
 EDIT:: I guess we have the RedNet 3. It's not too insane i guess to try it out with a SPDIF cable directly into my APL. When my wallet & my girlfriend the CFO recovers from all the microRendu-F1 purchases


----------



## mhamel

albrecht said:


> hi,
> 
> Thanks again for all your great work and links. Man, - you do more excellent work and testing in a few hours that I've seen anyone else do in months or longer
> 
> ...


 
  
 There's a pro audio forum called "gearslutz" - someone there has a RedNet 3 for sale, or at least did as of the end of last week.


----------



## Albrecht

*Best Shultzy voice*
  
 "I reeed nuthing"
  








 
  
  
 but seriously.... Thank you......


----------



## prot

albrecht said:


> It would be SO AWESOME if there was gigabit LAN "converter" running AES67/Ravenna from RJ45 to COAX/SPDIF that was an F-1-like deal I would be all over it....



http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o/
IIRC I posted this already a few days ago... it's the simplest ethernet/Aes67/Dante to AES device that I could find .. and pretty much your wish.


----------



## Albrecht

Sorry,
  
 I missed your post.
  
 Haven't had much experience with devices/cables that convert AES/EBU to SPDIF. Heard that there's been a lot more success going the other way....


----------



## mhamel

prot said:


> http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o/
> IIRC I posted this already a few days ago... it's the simplest ethernet/Aes67/Dante to AES device that I could find .. and pretty much your wish.


 
  
 All depends on if you are ok with 24/96 or want 24/192.... I believe that interface uses the Ultimo chip which will do a max of 24/96.
  
 The Focusrite boxes are using the Brooklyn module - I know the D16 is using the Brooklyn II, not sure on the Rednet 3 - might be the same. Those will do 24/192.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o/
> IIRC I posted this already a few days ago... it's the simplest ethernet/Aes67/Dante to AES device that I could find .. and pretty much your wish.


 

 96k on two channel - so 1996  Meh


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> All depends on if you are ok with 24/96 or want 24/192.... I believe that interface uses the Ultimo chip which will do a max of 24/96.
> 
> The Focusrite boxes are using the Brooklyn module - I know the D16 is using the Brooklyn II, not sure on the Rednet 3 - might be the same. Those will do 24/192.


 

 Yes 24/192 at a min.  It seems that RAVENNA is ahead of DANTE.  But of course with SPDIF/AES that is the limit anything more is a waist.  At least until an internal AES67 board is developed for DAC's.
  
 @Superdad made some interesting comments in those CA posts I reposted, about Audio over Ethernet - (not UpNP) - but true Audio over IP - and packet noise.  Similar to USB packet noise - I can't believe that with the TCP/IP protocol and very large buffers - but prehaps he is on to something? 
  
 John Swenson is really along in getting a sota new protocol for audio over IP (AOIP - I coin a new abbrev as I'm tired of typing the full one
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).  One ot replace i2s, SPDIF and USB. At least it seemed so a year ago.
  
 At least the NADAC can do:

Ethernet (RAVENNA/AES67) on RJ45 connector. Accepts 44.1kHz – 384kHz PCM, DXD, DSD 64, DSD128, DSD256


----------



## ccschua

hi will the 1 port works ? any particular advantage of 4 port ?
  
 nice finding here. I wonder if the chinese is able to integrade this in the  DDC with 2 power supply ?


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> hi will the 1 port works ? any particular advantage of 4 port ?
> 
> nice finding here. I wonder if the chinese is able to integrade this in the  DDC with 2 power supply ?


 

 Doubt that - very specialised ASIC - costing millions in development.
  
 I four for more devices on the end.  NOT the 1,2,3 port versions from ICRON or Startech.
  
 Only one 1GB LAN version with four ports
  
 Thank @mhamel - he found it.  Thanks Mike!


----------



## rb2013

Another long listening session with this great BJC CAT6a 625Mhz cable - I just want to say this - and i don't mean hyperbole.
  
 The F-1 (with the uber data and power feed) + the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender - IS THE SOTA IN SQ FOR DIGITAL CONNECTIONS - right now period.


----------



## ccschua

is it possible to stream just 1 end of it ? something like connecting the receiving end of it to a NAS or router ?


----------



## onlythat

I wanna add it may also be SOTA in reliability; the F-1, I mean.  For those curious about that aspect, I have now been running mine continuously at background music levels (to hasten the prescribed break-in period of 200 hours) for 3-4 days with three different software programs (Tidal, Audirvana+ and Classics online), pausing only to switch programs during my waking hours and there has not been one single solitary crackle, interruption, glitch or click.  This ability alone would be unprecedented, except for --- the PUC   
  
 Also-- while I haven't had the chance to do a full head to head yet (mainly due to time issues and the fact that my amp is too big for my media cabinet and the PUC and F-1 are on the side that cant be opened unless I remove the amp to do it.  Yeah I know-- not smart), preliminary brief listening to the F-1 tells me it is at _least_ in the neighborhood of the PUC 2 Lite on all fronts (and even preliminarily superior as regards staging, pace and detail).  As in, I am not at all shocked that the PUC is not the one doing the work now in the system as i was when I subbed in most other converters (though the Breeze came closest).
    
 I say all this to remove any lingering doubt among any of you thinking about pulling the trigger on the China wonder chip. 180 bucks?  And its miles better than any other converter I've had (it left the Gustard 10 miles back at the starting gate-- not subtle!) and preliminarily and not fully broken in, at least in the zip code of the PUC and, as they say in the military, dead-on-balls-reliable?   Seems like a no brainer to me.


----------



## mhamel

I have to chime in on stability - even though I am no longer using the F1 for my DAC connection, I haven't gotten around to disconnecting it yet and tried switching back to it earlier today - so it hasn't lost sync or needed to be reset/rebooted since 4/22. When I get some time this weekend it will probably get taken out of the system and put away, but at least from a stability standpoint it has been rock solid.


----------



## lateboomer

rb2013 said:


> Another long listening session with this great BJC CAT6a 625Mhz cable - I just want to say this - and i don't mean hyperbole.
> 
> The F-1 (with the uber data and power feed) + the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender - IS THE SOTA IN SQ FOR DIGITAL CONNECTIONS - right now period.


 
 I want to give latest listening impression of F-1. If you think this is SOTA setup at this period, then how about my Hqplayer (laptop running on LPS) + fiber optic + Intel NUC NAA setup running on LPS + Regen + F1?
 My setup should have solved the galvanic isolation issue as claimed by ICRON/Startech device, is it not?
 I have done head-to-head comparison of F-1 setup with RM$20k Synthesis Roma cd player which runs on tubes, and actually the cd player ends up on top.
 The cd player can give very good transient response, the sound can suddenly jump in and fade off with very good dynamic response and musicality. But the F-1 digital side is not inferior in any sense, however, it won't give the sudden jump factor feeling in the music playback. The frequency is smooth and balanced, but in a way also quite bland and stale compared to the cd player.
  
 I wonder is there any weakest link in the F-1 setup and this is interesting matter. So I will spend some times to trial and find out the reasons.
 I have a friend who sweared by cd player thinking it is impossible to copy the last mysterious bits from cd to computer to playback. So he thinks the best computer can achieve is smooth playback but can't entirely create back the musicality and jump factor of original cd.
 I don't have hard data to rebut him yet given the cd player is indeed better. But bear in mind I am talking about expensive and very good cd player.
  
 I have about 80 hours on F-1 so far. I also must mention the amplifier that can reveal this subtlety is Naim Audio 135 Monoblock Amplifiers, which the owner says is very good for PRAT and 'directness'.  The previous amplifier Musical Fidelity M6 that I used was not very revealing in this area.


----------



## Currawong

mourip said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > The box arrived and I've been having fun with drills and files. Now I'm going to have to unsubscribe I think, lest I start getting tempted to buy more gear to tweak with!
> ...


 

 I searched amazon for one that took a board of the exact dimensions I needed and got lucky. 
  
         Superbat DIYアルミ製ボックス サイズ：4.33"*2.08"*0.98"(L*W*H）     
  

Size（external）：25mmx53mmx110mm / 0.98"x2.08"x4.33" (H*W*L)
Size（Internal）：22mmx51mmx110mm / 0.87"x2"x4.33" (H*W*L)


----------



## ginetto61

Quote:


lateboomer said:


> ...    I have done head-to-head comparison of F-1 setup with RM$20k Synthesis Roma cd player which runs on tubes, and actually the cd player ends up on top....  I wonder is there any weakest link in the F-1 setup and this is interesting matter. So I will spend some times to trial and find out the reasons....


 
  
 Hi !     it could be the quality of the spdif input of your player or of the cable used.
 Have you tried different digital cables ? i like the ones with locking rcas ...
 Also LPS ... they are not all made equal. I bought one with a very nice toroidal but poor regulation and it is ****.
 The Regen is sensitive to the quality of the actual ps used, evidence of poor regulation/filtering on board.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## mourip

currawong said:


> I searched amazon for one that took a board of the exact dimensions I needed and got lucky.
> 
> Superbat DIYアルミ製ボックス サイズ：4.33"*2.08"*0.98"(L*W*H）
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks. Ebay is looking good now that I have the dimensions.


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Exciting news!  A hightly  acclaimed *MUTEC MC-3+ Smart Clock USB  will be here soon! *


 
  
  


rb2013 said:


> The F-1 (with the uber data and power feed) + the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender - IS THE SOTA IN SQ FOR DIGITAL CONNECTIONS - right now period.


 
  
 Have you received the Mutec USB yet?


----------



## roger7

lateboomer said:


> I want to give latest listening impression of F-1. If you think this is SOTA setup at this period, then how about my Hqplayer (laptop running on LPS) + fiber optic + Intel NUC NAA setup running on LPS + Regen + F1?
> My setup should have solved the galvanic isolation issue as claimed by ICRON/Startech device, is it not?
> I have done head-to-head comparison of F-1 setup with RM$20k Synthesis Roma cd player which runs on tubes, and actually the cd player ends up on top.
> The cd player can give very good transient response, the sound can suddenly jump in and fade off with very good dynamic response and musicality. But the F-1 digital side is not inferior in any sense, however, it won't give the sudden jump factor feeling in the music playback. The frequency is smooth and balanced, but in a way also quite bland and stale compared to the cd player.
> ...


 
  
 I don't understand what do you compare. Try to be more specific:
 1. Computer->Regen->F1->Roma(spdif input)
 2. Computer->Regen->Roma(usb input)
 3. Roma(playing CD)


----------



## lateboomer

The comparison:
 1. Computer HqPlayer output to router switch -> fiber optic connections with LPS -> Intel NUC as NAA on LPS --> Jitterbug with Vcc and Gnd blocked --> 1st Regen --> 1m cabledyne usb cable --> 2nd Regen to short usb connector -> F-1 --> coaxial spdif --> Soulnote dac -> balanced rca --> Naim amplifier.
 2. Synthesis Roma cd player --> optical spdif --> Soulnote dac --> same balanced rca --> Naim amplifier
  
 I use separate dedicated lines for source and amplifier. And all source components (digital and cd player) and LPS are connected to a regenerative power component. Previously I raved about the F-1 as compared to usb input on the dac. The assessment still stands but now the playback is about 12% loses out to the cd player.


----------



## jfrocke

currawong said:


> The box arrived and I've been having fun with drills and files. Now I'm going to have to unsubscribe I think, lest I start getting tempted to buy more gear to tweak with!



 

Currawong,

Is there any chance you could post a little diagram of the holes as you layed them out on each end of the box? I ordered the same box and was planning to ask the shop at work to punch the holes for me but I would need to give them a diagram.

Thanks


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> I want to give latest listening impression of F-1. If you think this is SOTA setup at this period, then how about my Hqplayer (laptop running on LPS) + fiber optic + Intel NUC NAA setup running on LPS + Regen + F1?
> My setup should have solved the galvanic isolation issue as claimed by ICRON/Startech device, is it not?
> I have done head-to-head comparison of F-1 setup with RM$20k Synthesis Roma cd player which runs on tubes, and actually the cd player ends up on top.
> The cd player can give very good transient response, the sound can suddenly jump in and fade off with very good dynamic response and musicality. But the F-1 digital side is not inferior in any sense, however, it won't give the sudden jump factor feeling in the music playback. The frequency is smooth and balanced, but in a way also quite bland and stale compared to the cd player.
> ...


 

 Well that was a bit tongue in cheek - as I have yet to hear the Mutec + the 1GB LAN.  Or the DANTE solution.  But i was thinking of updating my rating and rankings last night - after being absolutely floored by one album, I heard yesterday, in particular (hint the newer recorded stuff really shines the brightest in SQ improvement) and I just couldn't.  I mean I could not come up with a number - the SQ has so fundamentally changed.  I mean 200, 300, etc... It's just in a whole new realm.
  
 I really don't think it's just 'galvanic isolation', as I borrowed a friend's Intona, and that was just incremental.  As for fiber optic USB - which one the Corning?  It has copper lines in it to feed the electro-optical receiver converter.  Anyway these electo-optical converters add jitter and usually cheap ones - or we would all be using SPDIF optical.  If galvanic isolation was the sole key then SPDIF optical (which can now do 192k) would have superseded coax.  Maybe with fiber ethernet the TCP/IP works better  - but what's the point?  The 1GB LAN using UTP cables is already isolated.
  
 CD players have a very difficult task - realtime data retrieval from a servo-motor controled laser.  The laser has to track the often poorly stamped pits, usually error correction becomes very important.  And these pits have to be read in realtime.  The laser head servo and motor's themselves feed high levels of electrical noise back into the players ps system.
  
 Computer audio on the other hand records the pits as bits, in a very meticulous process, I use EAC (Exact Audio Copy) for archiving my CDs (secure mode, Test & Copy Tracks, AccurateRip verification).  It'll read each bit of a CD over and over (i think up to 16 times)until it gets a consistent match - before recording.  Most new CD's take only a few minutes - but some hours.  Once the ISO image is created - it is verified - then that image is compared to a 'AccuateRip' data base.  Once confirmed - that then becomes the WAV files (I use no compression, even lossless).
  
 So the job of converting pits to bits is done already using a much better and more accurate method.
  
 As I have said many times, the F-1 needs 200 hours runtime before any critical evaluation should be done - so at 80hrs - yours is not even baked yet.  Second what LPS?  What AC line filtering?  On your data chain - I found the W4S Recovery better then the Regen - by a small margin.  The addition of the Curious 200mm USB cable in lieu of the Regen hard adapter was significant, as was adding a iPurifier2 between the Recovery and the F-1.
  
 So as I said with my power and data chains the F-1 is extraordinary, but with this ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB in chain - well - for the first time - I'm at a loss for words to describe the SQ.  Just to say it's on a fundamentally whole other level (and the Startech has just bout 100 hrs on it.). 
  
 Again - my many thanks to Paul McGowen from PS Audio for that Youtube post.  This product of theirs will absolutely shock people (and maybe quiet his crtics).
  
 Paul if you read this - this one's for you!


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Have you received the Mutec USB yet?


 

 No - it should be here in a few weeks


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> The comparison:
> 1. Computer HqPlayer output to router switch -> fiber optic connections with LPS -> Intel NUC as NAA on LPS --> Jitterbug with Vcc and Gnd blocked --> 1st Regen --> 1m cabledyne usb cable --> 2nd Regen to short usb connector -> F-1 --> coaxial spdif --> Soulnote dac -> balanced rca --> Naim amplifier.
> 2. Synthesis Roma cd player --> optical spdif --> Soulnote dac --> same balanced rca --> Naim amplifier
> 
> I use separate dedicated lines for source and amplifier. And all source components (digital and cd player) and LPS are connected to a regenerative power component. Previously I raved about the F-1 as compared to usb input on the dac. The assessment still stands but now the playback is about 12% loses out to the cd player.


 

So you have the 'green' Regen.  You know the 'amber' is much better.  And Uptone (great guys!) will upgrade yours for free.
  
 PS Sorry I read 1st Regen - as meaning the green, now I see you have two in the chain.  You still don't have galvanic isolation from the Intel NUC and the F-1.  The NUC is a computer.
  


> USB REGEN updated. Amazing bass! All unshipped orders will be the latest.May 08 2015  *RESISTANCE IS NOT FUTILE! *
> 
> Let's cut right to the chase:
> We have added $0.40 worth of tiny resistors to the circuit board of the USB REGEN and* increased its musical performance by 40-50%—most especially in the bass! *Anyone who has a REGEN will be astonished by the improvement, and anyone who hears the new one for the first time will be even more amazed. Given the already unanimous rave reviews being heaped on the REGEN by people around the world who got one from the mid-April first run—it is hard to fathom how the thing could get that much better. But it has. And John Swenson and I are feeling rather gleeful about it.  *It really is a huge advancement for this already extremely effective device.*
> ...


----------



## lateboomer

The fiber optic components I used are:
http://www.amazon.com/MC220L-Converter-1000Mbps-supporting-mountable/dp/B003CFATL0?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
http://www.amazon.com/TL-SM311LS-Single-mode-MiniGBIC-interface-distance/dp/B003CFATYW?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
http://www.amazon.com/Diablo-Cable-Duplex-Single-Fiber/dp/B005XT3KGY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
  
 I setup everything by following the advice of:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250
  
 So I don't think the music server up to the NUC are the weakest links.
  
 The optical media converters and NUC are powered with LPS. I think the Curious USB cable and iPurifier2 could be the key factors, as when playing at this very high level, attention to detail is very important to achieve the best. I also using EAC to do ripping, I powered the laptop with LPS, and ripping is done by external Blu ray Samsung drive supported by Black Diamond isolation discs, the drive is connected by audiophile usb cable and jitterbug.


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> The fiber optic components I used are:
> http://www.amazon.com/MC220L-Converter-1000Mbps-supporting-mountable/dp/B003CFATL0?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
> http://www.amazon.com/TL-SM311LS-Single-mode-MiniGBIC-interface-distance/dp/B003CFATYW?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
> http://www.amazon.com/Diablo-Cable-Duplex-Single-Fiber/dp/B005XT3KGY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
> ...


 

 Well from the Intel NUC to the F-1 you don't have galvanic isolation  - and the NUC is a computer.  So that could be your 'weak' link.  The fact you can't outperform a spinner - tells me something is amiss.
  
 I think the Roma 14DC is around $2600USD - so that is a lot for a disc spinner.  I think you might be better served getting rid of the fiber ethernet, NUC NAA, and just getting the 1GB LAN USB extender - running from PC (HQpLayer) to USB chain
  
 Also an absolute must is a high quality LPS on the Regens - esp the 2nd one (do you really need 2?) - as that is the power feed to the F-1 (hyper critical for top performance).  I say sell one Regen and use the money for a decent LPS + iFi DC iPurifier to feed one Regen that then feeds the F-1.


----------



## prot

lateboomer said:


> The fiber optic components I used are:
> http://www.amazon.com/MC220L-Converter-1000Mbps-supporting-mountable/dp/B003CFATL0?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
> http://www.amazon.com/TL-SM311LS-Single-mode-MiniGBIC-interface-distance/dp/B003CFATYW?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00
> http://www.amazon.com/Diablo-Cable-Duplex-Single-Fiber/dp/B005XT3KGY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
> ...




If I may ask, what is the purpose of that ethernet wire-fiber-wire chain?
Is your server located miles away or...!?


----------



## Albrecht

hi,
  
 WOW...
  
 Awesome!! What great news.
  
 I am interested in what the differences will be with the LanRover once it gets releasted. Bill L said that they are having (likely ICron), build them a custom 1 designed with "audio specific" features.
 I wonder if they will pull the other 3 USB ports? The price will be $599 which is pretty reasonable. I think that I've seen the Icron discounted down to $420.
  
 I will also be curious to know your thoughts on the differences between the 1GB LAN model vs the cheaper, - non GB ones.
  
 I cannot believe that these models that do not convert the USB signal, (and are not usuable on a LAN), will sound nearly as good. But it will be interesting to know for sure.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> hi,
> 
> WOW...
> 
> ...


 

 Hi!
 Well $599 - the PS Audio version should be a big seller.  I may give one a try myself, wondering if they can improve it much though.  Of course the $179 difference could go towards a LPS for the REX end.
  
 My experience with the Startech non-Lan was miserable - could not transmit 192k stream without crackling.  Sound was compressed.  I'm done experimenting with these - I found the one that is magic - and sticking with it.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
 I would love to hear that guy in context. Trouble is, it might be a lot to bring all the gear to a show to give the potential buyer a "real-world" look at a mini-LAN similar to what they'd experience in their home.
 The NADAC also uses ESS Sabre chips. (Although I believe that there's a lot more to a great DAC than the converter chips used, and a good designer can make a DAC sound the way she wants), - on paper, the Sabre is nothing like the AKM. [And, - that's without even mentioning the no-master-clock, stacked DAC, 10 DACs per channel tech].
  
 A long way of saying that an AOIP needs to end with an external ethernet to SPDIF hardware device


----------



## ginetto61

Hi !   sorry for the stupid question ... *are ICRON and Startech the same Company ?*
 i am a little confused
 Thanks  a lot, gino


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
 No
 Icron has said that they OEM their devices to other companies. Startech does put their name on other companies devices and sells them under the StarTech name. I speculate that Icron licenses these to STartech, and will to PSaudio.


----------



## ginetto61

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> No
> Icron has said that they OEM their devices to other companies.
> Startech does put their name on other companies devices and sells them under the StarTech name.
> I speculate that Icron licenses these to STartech, and will to PSaudio.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot.  So to be sure better to go with Icron products ?  
 and moreover ... why nobody is interested in the non-lan products ?  I have been playing with a cheap (even a usb 1.1. I did not check the specs before buying) extender and aside some inevitable clicks i had the strong feeling that the line was cleaner than with the usb connection.  Very very clean. 
 So *the idea would be to buy the Icron non-lan/one port only extenders pair*.  
 Wasted money ?
 Thanks a lot, gino


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> I would love to hear that guy in context. Trouble is, it might be a lot to bring all the gear to a show to give the potential buyer a "real-world" look at a mini-LAN similar to what they'd experience in their home.
> The NADAC also uses ESS Sabre chips. (Although I believe that there's a lot more to a great DAC than the converter chips used, and a good designer can make a DAC sound the way she wants), - on paper, the Sabre is nothing like the AKM. [And, - that's without even mentioning the no-master-clock, stacked DAC, 10 DACs per channel tech].
> 
> A long way of saying that an AOIP needs to end with an external ethernet to SPDIF hardware device


 
 Yes Alex Peychev of APL is another one of those audio geniuses.  The NADAC is way over priced IMO.  I agree the best place to start would be a simple AES67 Ethernet to SPDIF and/or i2s - like the F-1 does for USB.  That used REDNET 3 is tempting and I may go for it - my audio budget is about shot though.  Ordered another DC iPurifier to go with the Breeze 24VDC LPS - to feed the REX part of the GB LAN USB
  


ginetto61 said:


> Hi !   sorry for the stupid question ... *are ICRON and Startech the same Company ?*
> i am a little confused
> Thanks  a lot, gino


 
 No - ICRON OEM's them - they are the only ones with the ASIC designed to do this - watch the Paul's video on the LANRover.
  
  


albrecht said:


> Hi,
> No
> Icron has said that they OEM their devices to other companies. Startech does put their name on other companies devices and sells them under the StarTech name. I speculate that Icron licenses these to STartech, and will to PSaudio.


 
 StarTech does this with alot of other companies products - the nonLAN USB ethernet extender I bought was the OEM's Rextron Alex recommended.  Dud - going back to Amazon (only getting Amazon credit  - no refund!).  They have these lock boxes now around Seattle - so no shipping cost back to them.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Wasted money ?
> Thanks a lot, gino


 
 Better yours then mine


----------



## Albrecht

> My experience with the Startech non-Lan was miserable - could not transmit 192k stream without crackling.  Sound was compressed.  I'm done experimenting with these - I found the one that is magic - and sticking with it.


 
  
 Yes, - the above quote is from RB2013 and his experience: posted 3 posts above.
  
 This makes sense to me as only the 2304 Icron that says GIGABIT LAN converts the USB to Layer 3 protocol over IP that is broadcast as "not-USB" and then the receiver converts a "new" galvanically isolated signal back to USB. ICron also makes a $1000 LAN version that is fiber. Both Icron and Startech sell many models of USB extenders, (plus other manufacturers), {ICRON seems to be the only one identified as he company that builds them} -that (likely) will not work, or work so badly, for this application.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Yes, - the above quote is from RB2013 and his experience: posted 3 posts above.
> 
> This makes sense to me as only the 2304 Icron that says GIGABIT LAN converts the USB to Layer 3 protocol over IP that is broadcast as "not-USB" and then the receiver converts a "new" galvanically isolated signal back to USB. ICron also makes a $1000 LAN version that is fiber. Both Icron and Startech make many models of USB extenders, that (likely) will not work, or work so badly, for this application.


 

 +1


----------



## ginetto61

Hi Guys !  thanks a lot for the valuable info.
 I will be watching you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 in the meantime i am putting money in my piggy bank ... 
 however *this usb connection is really a PITA  *
 There was nothing better ?  
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi Guys !  thanks a lot for the valuable info.
> I will be watching you
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I think so...http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio/15


----------



## ciphercomplete

I didnt have the problems with the non-lan startech that rb did. I could play 192 files. It just didnt sound as good as my system does without them.


----------



## lateboomer

prot said:


> If I may ask, what is the purpose of that ethernet wire-fiber-wire chain?
> Is your server located miles away or...!?


 
 The purpose is to isolate the noise from the noisier music server which runs Hqplayer. The music server does all the heavy duty of upsampling and generally generates more noise.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> I didnt have the problems with the non-lan startech that rb did. I could play 192 files. It just didnt sound as good as my system does without them.


 

 Could have been one of the nonLAN that ICRON makes that Startech rebranded.  How many ports did it have?


----------



## ciphercomplete

rb2013 said:


> Could have been one of the nonLAN that ICRON makes that Startech rebranded.  How many ports did it have?


 
 it was the one port model.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

Short question to Singxer F-1, is there any way to connect over I2S to the Audio-GD NFB-10.33 DAC section ( http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1033/NFB10.33EN.htm )? Like swap the USB32 module out: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/USB32/USB32EN.htm (the cable pin looks like it "could" match?) and put in the Singxer F-1 module in and connect with I2S internally? In this case I would not need to go external like this > USB > Singxer F-1 > COAX > Audio-GD NFB-10.33


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> it was the one port model.


 

 Yes that was the ICRON non-LAN 1 port.  $282


----------



## Muziqboy

I went ahead and ordered the Startech 4-port USB over Gigabit lan extenders this morning. Pricey stuff but if it will increase the SQ of my system I'm all good with that.
  
 Also ordered a 5 feet CAT6A from BJC, both will be here this Friday so I can start experimenting with it.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> I went ahead and ordered the Startech 4-port USB over Gigabit lan extenders this morning. Pricey stuff but if it will increase the SQ of my system I'm all good with that.
> 
> Also ordered a 5 feet CAT6A from BJC, both will be here this Friday so I can start experimenting with it.


 

 Join the madness!


----------



## rb2013

OK I did a little experiment tonight:
  
 I removed the iPurifer2 from between the W4S Recovery and the F-1 -  a slight, barely noticable drop in SQ.  Just a hint less dynamic.  I put it back there - yes confirmed I liked it better.
  
 But then I thought - 'How about before the GB LAN USB LEX unit - between the PC and the LAN USB'.  OK fired it up.
  
 Eureka!  Man oh man what an improvement!  More dynamics, in fact the gain increased, more detail.  Very, very noticable.
  
 This is insane - the SQ!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 New data chain:
  
 PC WIN10 iCore7 Foobar>PPA V2 (iPower 5VDC) PCIe /USB card>Forza Twin Split Copper>iPurifier2>ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender (LEX)>BJC CAT6a 625Mhz UTP Ethernet cable>REX (1-Jitterbug in an open port)>LH Labs 2G split (data leg only)>W4S Recovery (LPS - see power chain)>Curious 200mm USB link>F-1
  
 Ordered a DC iPurifer to go with the Breeze 24VDC LPS on the way to feed the REX - now I'm wondering what the heck that's going to sound like.


----------



## REXNFX

> New data chain:
> 
> PC WIN10 iCore7 Foobar>PPA V2 (iPower 5VDC) PCIe /USB card>Forza Twin Split Copper>iPurifier2>ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender (LEX)>BJC CAT6a 625Mhz UTP Ethernet cable>REX (1-Jitterbug in an open port)>LH Labs 2G split (data leg only)>W4S Recovery (LPS - see power chain)>Curious 200mm USB link>F-1


 
 Have you compared this type of solution against a LAN/USB solution like the Sonore Sonic Orbiter? TIA!


----------



## rb2013

rexnfx said:


> Have you compared this type of solution against a LAN/USB solution like the Sonore Sonic Orbiter? TIA!


 

 Not a chance - no UpNP for me -and definitely no DLNA.  I guess you haven't read much of this thread.


----------



## rb2013

OK update on this new chain:
  
 I'm again totally floored - amazed - elated - surprised - dumbfounded - astounded - let's see if I can find more adjectives...
  
 The simple placement of a iPurifier2 BETWEEN the PC and the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB - has improved it by at least 30% maybe more!!!!!
  
 Any slight hint of edge (only on some recordings) has vanished - complete and total musical purity.  I sort of attributed this to the 24VDC SMPS powering the receiver box (REX) - but no.
 Which I figured as the JB changed the SQ for the better there.
  
 Every aspect has improved including the sound stage depth and unity - a 'cut from one cloth' effect.  Stellar! (there I found another adjective)
 detail increased and this the kill shot - THE BASS!  What depth and definition!  From Maggies no less - no subs.
  
 I feel like this guy:


----------



## REXNFX

rb2013 said:


> Not a chance - no UpNP for me -and definitely no DLNA.  I just you haven't read much of this thread.


 
 Must have missed it in the over 1000 posts, lol. Re the new chain please let us know if all the components (like the F1)  are necessary now given the much improved SQ.


----------



## rb2013

rexnfx said:


> Must have missed it in the over 1000 posts, lol. Re the new chain please let us know if all the components (like the F1)  are necessary now given the much improved SQ.


 

 Yeah this thread has grown. I sort of compiled some great posts from a few CA threads - and reposted them here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio
  
 The criticism of UpNP/DNLA is interesting...
  
 But even Paul McGowen from PS Audio - who have a UpNP product called the bridge referred to UpNP at 2:08 into the video "there we are suck with UpNP...limited in the number of programs it can work with, it can be problematic...fussy..."
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
  
 But yes the F-1 is absolutely key - now I'm sure the 1GB LAN USB over ethernet device would help virtually any DDC, and maybe the F-1 has a super synergy going on.  But the results are quite astounding.


----------



## rb2013

So to eliminate any confusion here is the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender - (ICRON makes for Startech as OEM).
  
 It comes in two small boxs one a 'Sender' the 'LEX' and the reciever 'REX':


 Now with the iFi iPurifier2 plugged into the LEX - I would say not just 'World-Class' but World STOPPING - amazing.
 So the combination of the 1GB LAN USB + iPurifier2 = Stunning audio.  I have a Paul Pang V2 PCIe card plugged into my computer this provides USB on the PCIe bus, off of the PC's busy USB bus.  It is powered externally by a 1uv iPower 5VDC.
  
 I want to say this - when PS Audio releases the LANRover - if it's 90% of what the above ICRON/Startech GB LAN + iPurifer2 sounds like - it will set the audio world on fire.  Just one listen and folks will be stunned.  I predict within 6 months of it's release it will be on the front page of every Audio magazine.
  
 REMEMBER you heard it here first (well Paul's Youtube video - but that is still vaporware).  Here it is real world, available now, playing in my system.
  
 Not: 6moons, DAR, Stereotimes, Positive-feedback, Tone, Stereophile, CA, Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+, HiFi Choice, HiFi World, etc...
  
 Now the F-1 is awesome, but with the 1GB LAN USB/iPurifer2 - like adding 100PSI dual turbos - going from this:

  

 to this:


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> New data chain:
> 
> PC WIN10 iCore7 Foobar>PPA V2 (iPower 5VDC) PCIe /USB card>Forza Twin Split Copper>iPurifier2>ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB extender (LEX)>BJC CAT6a 625Mhz UTP Ethernet cable>REX (1-Jitterbug in an open port)>LH Labs 2G split (data leg only)>W4S Recovery (LPS - see power chain)>Curious 200mm USB link>F-1
> 
> Ordered a DC iPurifer to go with the Breeze 24VDC LPS on the way to feed the REX - now I'm wondering what the heck that's going to sound like.


 
  
 This ends up putting the Focusrite D16 + Dante DVS solution in a similar ballpark, price-wise...  and actually significantly less expensive going with the Rednet 3 instead of the D16. It would be interesting to hear the two setups side-by-side.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> This ends up putting the Focusrite D16 + Dante DVS solution in a similar ballpark, price-wise...  and actually significantly less expensive going with the Rednet 3 instead of the D16. It would be interesting to hear the two setups side-by-side.


 

 Yes you have that right - but I'm outta audio money for now.  If he bumps a 4th time down under $600 I might be tempted.  I hate to low ball people.
  
 Honestly - I can not see how this setup I have now is bettered.  One thing about the REDNET 3  - have not seen the boards - would like to see what they are using for clocks.  You have the advantage of excellent clocks you can output to the D16 (I think you said it made it better?).

 The other thing on the REDNET 3 - the power supply - I would really prefer something that had a DC power input.  Of course I don't need all the inputs and outputs - just 2 channels will do.  So thinking of just waiting for a F-1 type AES67 compatible Ethernet RJ45 to SPDIF/AES solution.   Like around $200.  This way I can just reset my TeraDak and use it, and the rest of the ps chain.  Right now just not quite ready to pursue a whole path.  Which of course will require new tweeks (optical ethernet, $300 ethernet isolators, better PCIe/Ethernet cards, OXCO WClocks, etc...)
  
 It's been years since I had an audio epiphany  - now I've had two in two weeks!  I really have to say this USB/GB LAN Ethernet hybrid deal is a paradigm changer.  For my ears at least.  Now with a simple 'tweek' (moving the iPur2 location), massive further gains.  And not done yet - to add a LPS to the REX.  Got the devil on the run, and he is howling, can't stop now...nirvana is in plain ear's distance.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Yes you have that right - but I'm outta audio money for now.  If he bumps a 4th time down under $600 I might be tempted.  I hate to low ball people.
> 
> Honestly - I can not see how this setup I have now is bettered.  One thing about the REDNET 3  - have not seen the boards - would like to see what they are using for clocks.  You have the advantage of excellent clocks you can output to the D16 (I think you said it made it better?).
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 While there may or may not be room for improvement in the PSU in the Rednet devices, it's not apples-to-apples with USB in terms of power on the bus. There is no power coming across the ethernet connection and all segments of the chain are transformer isolated. Even the AES output from the Focusrite box is transformer isolated, as is the AES input in the DAC side. It's really a completely different animal than USB and hard to compare in that manner.
  
 It is essentially simplifying the path above by removing the USB conversion at either end and all of the associated need for additional power injection, filtering steps, reclocking at several stages, etc. It's too bad that we're not local, I'd say we could set aside an afternoon and give both chains a comparative review without one person having to buy all of the gear for both. It would be really interesting (to me at least) to hear. I'm in a similar situation as you where this is the best I have ever heard this setup sound and it's hard to imagine it sounding any better.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> While there may or may not be room for improvement in the PSU in the Rednet devices, it's not apples-to-apples with USB in terms of power on the bus. There is no power coming across the ethernet connection and all segments of the chain are transformer isolated. Even the AES output from the Focusrite box is transformer isolated, as is the AES input in the DAC side. It's really a completely different animal than USB and hard to compare in that manner.
> 
> It is essentially simplifying the path above by removing the USB conversion at either end and all of the associated need for additional power injection, filtering steps, reclocking at several stages, etc. It's too bad that we're not local, I'd say we could set aside an afternoon and give both chains a comparative review without one person having to buy all of the gear for both. It would be really interesting (to me at least) to hear. I'm in a similar situation as you where this is the best I have ever heard this setup sound and it's hard to imagine it sounding any better.


 

 That is very encouraging!  I mean look at the heroic measures to get sota from USB that I've gone through.  I will be there experimenting with AOIP as some point.  The REDNET devices still do have clocks and so I imagine that power noise would still be important.  So while GB LAN compatible ethernet has galvanic isolation built in, that alone is a major improvement over USB. 
  
 There was an interesting disuccion on a CA thread speaking about clocking on a AOIP LAN device.  Saying Async USB was superior.  Now of course using a $10K atomic clock on a LAN is a great solution - and for a studio not that big a deal.  For the average home system it would be, at least now, unless prices fall - and they have begun too.


----------



## rb2013

This was interesting on AOIP:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/new-digital-analogue-converter-merging-technologies-home-audio-market-22967/index2.html


> 01-09-2015, 03:03 PM#47​​
> *Miska*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

01-10-2015, 04:26 AM#57​​
*Miska*




 Masters Level Member Join Date​ Apr 2010
Location​ Finland
Posts​ 6,691
Blog Entries​ 12





> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> synchronization as asynchronous clocking either, because it runs at word clock speeds.





> Especially with chips like Sabre you need up to 100 MHz very low jittermaster clock. With





> discrete DSD DACs like DSC1 you only need DSD bitrate clock, so for DSD256 12.2





> MHz would be enough.
> 
> I'm curious to see jitter plots for these multi-DAC setups, and I'm not expecting very good





> results.


 




> Signalyst - http://www.signalyst.com
> Developer of HQPlayer


 ​


----------



## Albrecht

DELETED: ? answered....


----------



## ginetto61

albrecht said:


> DELETED: ? answered....


 
  
 Hi sorry but i have intercepted this statement ... 


> * you are galvanically isolating the USB signal in the conversion process*


 
 this has triggered my curiosity.  Could you elaborate a little ? which conversion process ?
 when i read galvanic isolation i wake up ... 
 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 The icron 2304 Gigabit LAN devices "convert" the USB signal to a layer 3 protocol, broadcast it over a LAN or via a direct Ethernet cable, and then convert it back to a "cleaner," "new" USB signal at the "receiver."
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Albrecht

AWESOME,
  
 Very interesting that the "LEX" benefits from a "Cleaner" USB signal that the iPurifier2 provides! In essence, - the better the USB signal being fed the Sender, - the better the "converted" signal received & "re-converted"


----------



## mz2014

The simplest solutions are the best. I think so nothing would be better than the PCIe> I2S> DAC like a Pink Faun.


----------



## sbgk

mz2014 said:


> The simplest solutions are the best. I think so nothing would be better than the PCIe> I2S> DAC like a Pink Faun.


 
 assuming that you have the perfect pc with no noise, then yes.
  
 Seems a bit over the top having these multi box ethernet solutions, surely better do do all that in 1 box, for those that don't need extenders.
  
 RB - Can't you commission something from China to do this, now you know what the formulae is ?


----------



## ginetto61

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> The icron 2304 Gigabit LAN devices "convert" the USB signal to a layer 3 protocol, broadcast it over a LAN or via a direct Ethernet cable, and then convert it back to a "cleaner," "new" USB signal at the "receiver."
> Cheers,


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot for the very valuable explanation.
*Do you know maybe if this conversion happens also in non-lan usb over rj45 cable extenders ? *
 i think that this is indeed a key reason of the better sound. Just a guess. I am ignorant on the topic.  
 Thanks a lot again, gino


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> AWESOME,
> 
> Very interesting that the "LEX" benefits from a "Cleaner" USB signal that the iPurifier2 provides! In essence, - the better the USB signal being fed the Sender, - the better the "converted" signal received & "re-converted"


 
 Yes that is right - and here I beg to differ with Paul McGowan - the cable feeding the LEX and of course the power and ground isolation of the USB.  But to such a huge degree really surprised me.
  


sbgk said:


> assuming that you have the perfect pc with no noise, then yes.
> 
> Seems a bit over the top having these multi box ethernet solutions, surely better do do all that in 1 box, for those that don't need extenders.
> 
> RB - Can't you commission something from China to do this, now you know what the formulae is ?


 
 If it were so easy - as Paul McGowan explains - they tried , it was too hard.  The very specialized ASIC (Application Specific Intregrated Circuit) would take millions to develop.  That is the reason PS Audio decided to buy and order (customized) a OEM one.  This is not an off the shelf XMOS chip, although hopefully, one may be coming.  From @Superdad's posts it looked like Uptone was working on something - but that was over a yr ago - maybe they hit a dead-end?  Or still developing it?  I hope the latter.
  
 I did think of just getting a big fancy case and stuffing it with a F-1, Recovery and 1GB LAN USB - all cabled together.  Call it the rb2013 and sell it for $1800 - I bet it just crushes the Berkeley Alpha.


----------



## Albrecht

Not the iFi iPurifer, - but the ICron has been around for at least 3 years, - and its application, (largely), as an USB extender on a LAN, - is pretty far away from this high-end audio application.
  
 Sorry to beat a dead horse, - but the benefit of moving the computer far away from the audio rack is just as important than the isolation "regeneration" it provides.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Not the iFi iPurifer, - but the ICron has been around for at least 3 years, - and its application, (largely), as an USB extender on a LAN, - is pretty far away from this high-end audio application.
> 
> Sorry to beat a dead horse, - but the benefit of moving the computer far away from the audio rack is just as important than the isolation "regeneration" it provides.


 

 Yes!  That is what was so amazing about Paul McGowan's youtube video!  Truly an undiscovered jem.
  
 This will revolutionize digital audio - certainly USB digital.  But as you say it goes way beyond that!
  
 BTW I had a iPurifer (the first one), it did nothing for me.  Now the iPurifer2 is a completely different beast.  Coupled with a 1uv iPower - you basically have the iUSB 3.0


----------



## rb2013

I have to give credit to this post on the Regen thread - that's where I heard it first - I posted it here the same day.  I got not a single response  - so I posted it a second time.  That got the ball rolling.  Funny on the Regen thread barely a notice.  This was completely off everybody's radar.
  
 Let me say - it won't be for long.  I hope ICRON they made a lot of those GB LAN USB ASIC chips!
  
post #961 of 969
 1 week, 3 days ago 


 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/4a/100x100px-LS-4a05d769_ChiUniFi8.jpeg[/img] 
 
Audio Addict




 
offline
 
3,175 Posts. Joined 8/2001
Location: Somewhere in the Heartland
 

 Not to high jack the thread but did anyone else get the PS AUDIO link to a YouTube video basically reselling a device they will name LANRover? They mentioned comparing it to the US Regen, which they liked but felt this discovery needed to be sold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUl9fJNyfbo
 Edited by Audio Addict - 4/25/16 at 7:20pm


----------



## ccschua

i wonder why not go for iUSB 3.0 since it gives 0.1uV and upto 2.5A which I will a lot of juice. will this unit be like ultimate ? or is Uptone coming up with some better power supply JS-3 ?
  
 with the iUSB 3, does PPA V2 matter or just plan USB (noisy) output will do ?


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> i wonder why not go for iUSB 3.0 since it gives 0.1uV and upto 2.5A which I will a lot of juice. will this unit be like ultimate ? or is Uptone coming up with some better power supply JS-3 ?
> 
> with the iUSB 3, does PPA V2 matter or just plan USB (noisy) output will do ?


 

 Well that's what I have minus the four port USB 3.0 breakout box, for less then 1/2 the price.  The iPurifier2 is basically the heart of the iUSB3.0


----------



## somestranger26

My F-1 arrived today. I hooked it up to my Audio-GD Master 11 with a Viablue RCA-RCA adapter to make sure it works and WOW it is already better than the Breeze DU-U8 via I2S.
  
 I'm going to replace the Amanero USB input on my DAC with the F-1 and wire it directly to the motherboard with OCC copper wire over the weekend. I would do it now, but I don't have enough soldering flux. I bought some 96/3.5/0.5 silver/copper flux for the project and it is supposed to arrive tomorrow.
  
 Shenzhen told me when I asked them that the I2S pins would be hooked up but they came in a separate bag like others have said. This actually works in my favor now that I'm planning to solder the wires directly without any connectors.


----------



## ccschua

it wud be interesting to know if F-1 I2S output (on board M11) is superior to the external F-1 using cheap coaxial cable such as Canare (same USB cable on both case).


----------



## yahayh

Hi,
  
 I want to replace the Amanero Combo384 module in my Yulong DA8 DAC , and the F-1 xu208 is a good candidate.
  
 On the F-1 X208 description it's indicate "Screw position, I2S pin position is fully compatible with Italy Amanero module"
  
 I checked the pinout (the numbering of the pins is different) . 
 SDATA, BCLK, LRCLK, MCLK, DSD ON, 3.3V  pinout is OK but the others must not connect?
 Audio mute signal is on a differrent pin.
  
http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2016/05/06/mini_160506095812911898.jpg
   
 

http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2016/05/06/mini_1605060958121843.jpg


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> Well that's what I have minus the four port USB 3.0 breakout box, for less then 1/2 the price.  The iPurifier2 is basically the heart of the iUSB3.0


 
 Hi rb2013, 
  
 you said this a couple of other time, but how could you implement both iPurifier2 and iPower on a product like the F-1? F-1 only like USB bus power, do you have a splitter for USB signal and AC iPower plug?
  
 BTW I'm waiting for lindy to reply to my email whether their USB extender convert USB to IP...


----------



## hugoboss

somestranger26 said:


> My F-1 arrived today. I hooked it up to my Audio-GD Master 11 with a Viablue RCA-RCA adapter to make sure it works and WOW it is already better than the Breeze DU-U8 via I2S.
> 
> I'm going to replace the Amanero USB input on my DAC with the F-1 and wire it directly to the motherboard with OCC copper wire over the weekend. I would do it now, but I don't have enough soldering flux. I bought some 96/3.5/0.5 silver/copper flux for the project and it is supposed to arrive tomorrow.
> 
> Shenzhen told me when I asked them that the I2S pins would be hooked up but they came in a separate bag like others have said. This actually works in my favor now that I'm planning to solder the wires directly without any connectors.


 

 plz let me know also how to solder it with audio gd i2s board , i also have nos 7 dac .
 at least make some picture which pin to solder from to where
 thanks alot


----------



## hugoboss

my diy box for F1 , very satisfied with this little magic. still the best connection i ever heard


----------



## yahayh

Hi,
 This module works standalone with the usb 5VDC ? 
  
 If i want to replace amanero module by this module, the usb 5VDC est necessary ?


----------



## ciphercomplete

yahayh said:


> Hi,
> This module works standalone with the usb 5VDC ?
> 
> If i want to replace amanero module by this module, the usb 5VDC est necessary ?


 
  
 Yes, it needs 5v input.


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Hi rb2013,
> 
> you said this a couple of other time, but how could you implement both iPurifier2 and iPower on a product like the F-1? F-1 only like USB bus power, do you have a splitter for USB signal and AC iPower plug?
> 
> BTW I'm waiting for lindy to reply to my email whether their USB extender convert USB to IP...


 

 Great question as the new 1uv iPower has a barrel 2.1mm power outlet (although comes with some barrel adapters - but no USB A adapter).
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/


> *Specification:* Input: 100-240VAC
> Output: 5V/2.5A; 9V/2.0A; 12V/1.8A; 15V/1.2A
> Output plug: 5.5×2.1mm
> DC Adapters:
> ...


 
 This where the Paul Pang V2 TXCO PCIe card comes in very handy.  Not only does it remove the USB data stream from the busy PC USB bus - to the PCIe channel.  It has available, as an option, a external power feed.  This is how I power the PPA V2 with a 5VDC 1uv iPower.  The USB power feed is now completely removed from the PC  - the PPA V2 TXCo clock as well.  I use a split USB cable from Forza - the Twin Copper (when I did my USB cable shootout it came in second to the LH Labs 2g - but is very good, esp for the price).
  
 So now the even this high quality USB power is kept separate from the USB data line and this feeds the iPurifier2 that then feeds the LEX.
  

  

 http://www.highend-audiopc.com/shop/en/usb-cards/paul-pang-audio-grade-v2-usb-card
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipurifier2/







<< 1* | *2* | *3* | *4 >>​ 


 
Overview​
Tech Specs​
Comparison​
Reviews​
 

 USB A, B, C and
 micro sockets
 Established and
 advanced new features
 Active Noise Cancellation®
 The USB audio
 ‘Grand Slam’




















 iFi USB audio technology
 is unsurpassed
 REclock®/REbalance®/REgenerate®
 100 times reduction in noise
 micro iUSB + Gemini
 + iPurifier 2

 The USB audio platform is well-established, yet as with any audio transmission protocol, unwanted factors hinder the audio quality. iFi’s obsession with ‘cleaning up’ the USB audio chain drawn from the knowledge base of AMR. As early as 2012, iFi invented the first USB power regenerator – the iUSB Power. This was swiftly followed by professional USB audio cables – the Mercury and Gemini. Later came the USB audio filter – the original iPurifier. Fast-forward to 2015 and we now have the iPurifier 2.
 Most effective at the end (rather than the beginning) of the ‘digital USB audio chain’ the iPurifier 2 cleans up the USB transmission. There is an iPurifier 2 perfectly suited to every DAC.
  
 All-new, cutting-edge




 In an all aircraft-grade CNC-aluminium shell anodised in ‘titanium’，the all-new iPurifier 2 features the very latest USB audio technology from Active Noise Cancellation® to REclock® and REgenerate®, whilst still retaining the original REbalance®.
  
 Active Noise Cancellation® drawn from military radar technology




 Drawing from the military field (specifically the Thales Spectra radar cancellation system deployed in the French Dassault Rafale jet fighter), iFi adapted this technology to exclusively introduce the Active Noise Cancellation® (ANC®) audio power system. It is now a cornerstone of the ever-improving iFi USB audio technology, looking for new products to feature ANC® ，and ANC+®.




_An air defence radar is transmitting at a certain frequency; the signal is bouncing off the aircraft; a receiver on board the aircraft picks up the signal and a computer analyses its base frequency/modulations and an identical, out-of-phase signal is generated by an on board system to cancel out the enemy radar signal._
 By generating a signal identical to the noise signal but in the exact opposite phase, it actively cancels all the incoming noise. ANC® is the perfect ‘antidote’ for power supply noise, the bane of USB audio.




 ANC® measured, noise drops by 100 times or 40dB in comparison to the Common Noise Filter. Sonically, the background and inner resolution to recordings is enhanced several levels.




 REclock® reclock/regenerate/repeat the signal




 Re-clocking is beneficial to audio. REclock® is a ‘3-in-1’ feature that re-clocks/re-generates/repeats USB audio datastream. For any and every downstream DAC, REclock® technology eliminates jitter. Music flows better, is cleaner, deeper and tauter, just like the real thing.
 REbalance® rectify the unbalanced signal
 A core element of the original iPurifier’s success was REbalance® which has naturally been carried over to the iPurifier 2. By removing the DC offset and ‘re-balancing’ the USB audio signal, it is now perfectly balanced. As it purifies the USB audio data stream, this means noise is significantly reduced:




  
 Future-proofed. Like no other




 At iFi, we already develop cutting-edge, advanced audio converters from AMR trickle-down technology. Given this pedigree, the iPurifier 2 (just like the original iPurifier) is ready for all present and future PCM/DSD/DXD formats – without restriction.
 So your iPurifier 2 will improve your USB audio playback experience for many years to come.
  
 The iFi ‘Grand Slam’





To reach the absolute zenith in USB audio quality, iFi loves to push past the envelope of what is considered possible. We recommend the existing iUSB Power (to supply pure, clean power) and the Gemini cable (for separate audio + power transmission). Coupled with the iPurifier 2 to re-clock/regenerate and filter audio+power just prior to entering the iUSB Power (in this instance, not at the DAC end).
 For the iUSB3.0, that alone incorporates all that we have learnt over the past few years so the iPurifier2 is not required to improve the iUSB3.0.
 For further reading on the iUSB and technical aspects on other iFi products:
https://www.facebook.com/iFiAudio/notes


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> My F-1 arrived today. I hooked it up to my Audio-GD Master 11 with a Viablue RCA-RCA adapter to make sure it works and WOW it is already better than the Breeze DU-U8 via I2S.
> 
> I'm going to replace the Amanero USB input on my DAC with the F-1 and wire it directly to the motherboard with OCC copper wire over the weekend. I would do it now, but I don't have enough soldering flux. I bought some 96/3.5/0.5 silver/copper flux for the project and it is supposed to arrive tomorrow.
> 
> Shenzhen told me when I asked them that the I2S pins would be hooked up but they came in a separate bag like others have said. This actually works in my favor now that I'm planning to solder the wires directly without any connectors.


 
 Nice!  Please post some pictures of your operation - good luck!
  


hugoboss said:


> my diy box for F1 , very satisfied with this little magic. still the best connection i ever heard


 
 Nice box!  Good job on drilling the SPDIF hole - do you have a pic of the USB side?


----------



## rw35

@rb2013
  
 This is quite frankly a fabulous thread you've created... full of insightful info and selfless wallet bashing.
  
 I'm running the Intona Industrial into the W4S Recovery and can't (right now) see how I can really improve the current sound (it's awesome), but I have to say that your experimentation and enthusiasm has got me 'on the hook.'
  
 The things is that Intona already fully isolates USB so I'm wondering if you've made that comparison with the Startech USB>LAN option?
  
 Also I'm wondering if the VEGA DAC would benefit from the F-1 XMOS board, converting to coax as opposed to feeding it via the W4S USB out?
  
  
 Please keep up this outstanding work.
  

  
  
 ---
  
  
*Source:*
 *Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS) > Curious short USB link > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed) > *Auralic VEGA (balanced)

*Control:*
 *Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

*Playback:*
 2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz high pass filtered from subs)

*Misc:*
 *Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator
 LPS: 2 x Swagman Lab Audiophile SE (W4S & FMC) & 1 x SMSL P1 (Intona power injection)
 Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM
 Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)
 Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains


----------



## ciphercomplete

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! i remember very well that video and got excited even if the price was above my budget.
> Still i would like to have the opportunity to listen to that dac ... it caught my imagination.
> Ps Audio has a long history or excellent products especially for the price.   i remember the story of their 1st battery powered phono preamp.  A very telling story.
> I am very curious to see the development of this device.
> ...


 
  
 I just meant to point out McGowan's penchant for puffery thats all.  I know they make great stuff as I have either heard or owned alot of their power conditioning products.  That being said though PS Audio is an outlier in the audio world when it comes to hype marketing imo.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> @rb2013
> 
> This is quite frankly a fabulous thread you've created... full of insightful info and selfless wallet bashing.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the kind words.
  
 Great question!  And unfortunately neither did Paul McGowan do a comparison to the Intona, he did compare to the Regen and in his words "knocked it's socks off'.
 So I can not say for sure, but I see a problem with Intona's approach - and that is reclocking with inexpensive SiTime clocks, also the complication of producing galvanic isolation in the USB stream.  Now in Paul's video they suspect the SQ improvements with the 1GB LAN USB approach is from two levels of isolation - first the transformer galvanic isolation inherent to 1GB or higher LAN devices, but second a possible deeper level of isolation - that involving the USB to TCP/IP packet conversion and reconstruction.
  
 Now I have not opened the cases on the REX and LEX to see what clocks they are using - or what kind of regulation.  I wanted to wait a month or so, as to not void the warranty.  In the advent they failed for some reason.  I will crack open the cases at some point.
  
 BTW here is @Superdad, on the Regen thread speaking about the Intona's design - in addition to Alex's comments on the noise and jitter issues with the Intona design (not saying that the sonic benefits of galvanic isolation don't out weight them).  He and other have commented on certain issues and incompatibilites - requiring the unit to be sent back to Intona (Germany?) for reprogramming the FPGA's :
  
 20 hours, 22 minutes ago

 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/9a/100x100px-LS-9acb55ce_TinySystem.jpeg[/img]
 
Superdad
Member of the Trade: UpTone Audio




 
offline
 
51 Posts. Joined 4/2015
 



prot said:


> The hard part is the galvanic iso. Chips who can do that at full usb2.0 speed are rare, new and expensive. Afaik Intona has the only commercial chip right now .. few others are rumored to come.


 
  
 No, the Intona is not based on a commercial chip.  Rather what they have done is write their own USB MAC processing core for an FPGA, then run it in two FPGAs separated by standard Silicon Labs digital isolators.  Unfortunately, they use one very average clock for the entire device--and they have it located on the "dirty" upstream side.  There is jitter added by both FPGAs and 350ps of jitter added by the isolators.  They reclock it all in the second FPGA, but there is broad debate about if that is the best place to reclock.  In addition, none of the voltage regulators they use in the device would be considered particularly low noise (at 55uVrms and 100uVrms).
  
 The Intona does sound good with a REGEN after it though.  That's how I use it.  At least for another couple of months, when we will then release our uber-REGEN with, among a bunch of other enhancements, full galvanic isolation.


----------



## ginetto61

ciphercomplete said:


> I just meant to point out McGowan's penchant for puffery thats all.  I know they make great stuff as I have either heard or owned alot of their power conditioning products.
> That being said though PS Audio is an outlier in the audio world when it comes to hype marketing imo.


 
  
 Hi and maybe you are right.
 But usually there is also a listening panel that confirms his words.  
 In that case, if i remember well, there was a very famous expert of sacd production.  An authority in audio.  
 And he was amazed. 
 Strange that that dac is not more popular. 
 Kind regards, gino


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## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> I just meant to point out McGowan's penchant for puffery thats all.  I know they make great stuff as I have either heard or owned alot of their power conditioning products.  That being said though PS Audio is an outlier in the audio world when it comes to hype marketing imo.


 

 Well many folks have said this as well.  That's why I paid $50 more to buy the GB LAN USB from Amazon - so I could return it if it was all blooey.  I can say, at least for this device - he understated it.


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## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> 
> Great question!  And unfortunately neither did Paul McGowan do a comparison to the Intona, he did compare to the Regen and in his words "knocked it's socks off'.
> So I can not say for sure, but I see a problem with the Intona's approach - and that is reclocking with inexpensive SiTime clocks, also the complication of producing galvanic isolation in the USB stream.  Now in Paul's video they suspect the SQ improvements with the 1GB LAN USB approach is from tow levels of isolation - first the transformer galvanic isolation inherent to 1GB or higher LAN devices, but second a possible deeper level of isolation - that involving the USB to TCP/IP packet conversion and reconstruction.
> ...


 
  
 No worries, yes I had a regen but sold it in favour of the W4S Recovery. I'm thinking that the W4S Recovery (placed after the Intona) probably fixes any clocking issues that Intona might introduce, Intona say on their site (I've pasted the text below) that their goal is absolute minimum noise and that's why they have a line 4 clocks slightly out of phase (that's way over my head)? - I have to say that though that the system does sound mindbogglingly good at the moment, but you're description of the F-1 card and the USB>LAN route has certainly got me thinking _again_ (just after I swore I had the job sorted).
  

  
 ---
  
  
 What would you expect by using a "better" oscillator?

 We measured 12.5ps of RMS jitter on the USB packet clock. A more or less jittery oscillator would not make any difference on this, because of the very low tuned lp-filter in the transceiver's PLL.

 We use four clocks in our design, all shifted slightly in phase and affected from natural spread spectrum of the isolator chips and other sources. This really helps to bring EMI down and to spread current peaks – e.g. to lower the packet noise.
 If we would tune everything inside to least jitter, this would rise packet noise and also EMI radiation.

 One need to distinguish between


sample clock in an ADC or DAC: low jitter is the most important, because only the right sample at the right time is the right sample
transmission clock of a serial system: BER (bit error rate) or eye mask to be specified
clock passing integrated logic: setup and hold times to be met

 We decided to go for low noise, so spreading clocks and accepting inter-logic-skew was the way to go. *Further, clever design of return currents and also a good and low impedance decoupling network of the power supplies are by far more important to meet your needs than looking for the oscillator.*


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> No worries, yes I had a regen but sold it in favour of the W4S Recovery. I'm thinking that the W4S Recovery (placed after the Intona) probably fixes any clocking issues that Intona might introduce, Intona say on their site (I've pasted the text below) that their goal is absolute minimum noise and that's why they have a line 4 clocks slightly out of phase (that's way over my head)? - I have to say that though that the system does sound mindbogglingly good at the moment, but you're description of the F-1 card and the USB>LAN route has certainly got me thinking _again_ (just after I swore I had the job sorted).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well it's not just jitter - but the clocks they use have extremely high levels of phase noise - so I don't know if their appoarch solves that.  I know that Alex from APL audio uses multiple DACs in series to reduce noise.  MY APL DAC has 6 AKM 32-bit DAC's per channel - for a total of 12.
  
 I want to say that the use of a iPurifer2 into the GB LAN USB made a very significant improvement in it's already shocking SQ improvement.  So maybe even more juice to be made from this fruit.  I have a LPS coming and a DC iPur to feed the REX end.
  
 So we'll see.  BTW I like the Recovery slightly more then the Regen, but they both work well with the F-1 DDC.  Sometimes not always the case with different DAC's and DDC's.


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## rb2013

I should mention one additional benefit to the GB LAN USB solution to GI on USB - the ability to move the computer out of the listen room.  I may try this at some point - mine is virtually silent - with only a ultra quiet CPU fan  (and a ElFidelity fan filter).   The other ambient noise from the world around my listening room more then that.
  
 But it would be nice to just put the PC in a closet somewhere.


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## onlythat

*Preliminary F-1/PUC comparison (F-1 aged 100 hours in my cellar) *
  
 As the F1 is reportedly only 'half-baked' at 100 hours or so of continuous play (drop out free, I might add), I thought a brief head to head with the PUC might start to be relevant.  I use only an AQ Jitterbug,  light speed 2G split USB cable and a Teradak x1/x2 LPS.  Mac mini is the source. 
  
 I went back and forth on The Silver Album; an album of violin sonatas as played by Anne Sophie Mutter and pianist Lambert Orkis as streamed on Tidal via Audirvana+ streaming.  Seemed appropriate since this is the sort of music I mainly listen to.  To keep it really really simple, I listened to the same two tracks (two movements of the pretty well recorded Beethoven Violin sonata No. 7 in C minor) about ten or fifteen times on each at the same volume.  I'd listen to the finale with the F-1 for example, and then switch the Light speed cable to the PUC immediately. Problems with this comparison are of course that the PUC uses a balanced connection to my DAC and the F-1 does not.  Just to help the F-1 out, I gave it at one point a 1000 dollar 1.5meter digital IC (and also used a 50 dollar one) and the PUC had only a 12 foot mogami balanced cable (like 50 bucks but reportedly on par with some very pricey spread; MIT/Transparent etc. per some forum members). 
  
 Soooooo....  no one is getting sold on Audiogon_ just yet (_and believe me, I was ready!  
  
 I would say the basic difference at the 100 hour break in point, is that then PUC sounds a bit more like a great tube amp (maybe like a big Audio Research I used to own) and the F-1 sounds like great solid state.  I mean, the F-1 sounds superbly clean and grain free and fast, whereas the PUC at this point seems to edge it on weight/gravitas and delicacy. Basically, with the PUC, there seems at this point to be a bit more of a developed harmonic envelope around Anne Sophie's violin and Lambert's piano, even if there may be slightly less coloration (?grain) with the F-1 than with the PUC.  In other words, the F1 may be slightly more lucid. I would say the PUC at this point though, has a bit more tonal weight/heft, though both are pretty dynamic. The PUC may actually slightly exceed the F1 on these tracks in terms of range between loud passages and soft. The F-1 definitely seems to image a bit more upfront and center than the PUC (which seems as I say, just slightly more delicate in its presentation of the stage and tonal nuance).  Using only these tracks so far, I obviously can't comment on absolute bass depth or drums or what have you.  You need Metallica for that. 
  
 But in the battle of subtle violin/piano music, the PUC comes across right now as slightly more delicate, warm and weighty, whereas like its namesake, the F-1 may be a tiny bit 'faster' sounding (hard to call) and is a bit clearer/more lucid, with the sense of a more lit up top end at the expense of some tonal nuance and delicacy.  It also has a slightly more upfront stage (players seem more forward) that is equally as wide (maybe even a touch wider? Cant tell yet) and as deep. 
  
 My preference at the halfway point and with limited comparison thus far, would be slightly for the PUC as it seems a bit more tonally nuanced and weighty with this sort of intimate acoustic music, though if my system were a touch dark, I would probably say i prefer the F-1's more lit up tonality.  i realize one could make the argument that the F1 is showing me what's 'really' on that 1980's (1990's?) recording and the PUC is prettifying things slightly (this occurred to me), but of course, I wasn't at the studio recording, so I'll never know!   I seemed to 'enjoy'/relax into the pieces a bit more with the PUC whereas the F-1 at the half way point of break-in, comes across as maybe slightly more sonically 'impressive'?
  
 Again-- purposely not doing a more 'broad-spectrum' comparison as the F-1 is at the 100 hour mark, but bottom line, both are great converters.  Ultimately, I suspect  which is preferred may depend, like most things, on your own musical tastes and specific system components.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> *Preliminary F-1/PUC comparison (F-1 aged 100 hours in my cellar) *
> 
> As the F1 is reportedly only 'half-baked' at 100 hours or so of continuous play (drop out free, I might add), I thought a brief head to head with the PUC might start to be relevant.  I use only an AQ Jitterbug,  light speed 2G split USB cable and a Teradak x1/x2 LPS.  Mac mini is the source.
> 
> ...


 

 Great review!  Now in my experience the F-1 will just now (after 100 hrs) gain in tonal richness and open up - out past 200 hrs.  I have tubed DACs so - by their nature the F-1 was a perfect match.
  
 Which DAC are you using?
  
 Looking forward to your impressions down the road.
  
 Oh and you have the PUC2 lite or PUC2?


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## onlythat

It's a PUC 2 Lite and it's an older R2R NOS DAC along the lines of an Audio Note, Metrum or Aqua HiFi.


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## prot

onlythat
Sounds like the big surprise did not happen. That PUC is a tough rock to pass. 
I think your comparison between the PUC and a tube amp is quite apt. I always found it hard to describe/explain how it sounds. Apart from the strong bass outlier, all I can say is that it sounds like music .. it adds a sort of musical glitter to everything without losing any detail. No other digital component that I ever listened to does that. Doubt any DDC will ever surpass it .. maybe there'll be some with extra detail & co but that PUC musicality is just priceless


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## onlythat

Yes Prot, there is definitely something about Mary and something about the PUC It is certainly one of those components that has this thing it does with musical nuance that is hard to put into words (at least for me) but that once heard, is not easily forgotten or surpassed. I think part of the issue is of course that even if something is more detailed or 'clearer sounding,' that doesn't mean it captures the dynamic shadings and subtle tonal qualities that best suggest you're hearing live un-amplified music. Thus far, for me, the PUC suggests a real piano and violin slightly more plausibly than the half broken-in F-1. 
 Rb tells us that another hundred hours may further even the score (pun intended and not a bad one eh?) We shall see...

He also tells us a Star tech will throw the score out the window I'd love to check that one out with either the PUC or F1. Saving up...

PS- it occurs to me that if someone does the same a/b with less nuanced, more 'produced' music, like with say, K pop or Taylor Swift (yeah I know- both are sooooo nuanced, you might prefer the F-1 because it's more 'in your face' and a bit brighter on top. But I don't listen to K pop or Taylor (in public).


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## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Yes Prot, there is definitely something about Mary and something about the PUC It is certainly one of those components that has this thing it does with musical nuance that is hard to put into words (at least for me) but that once heard, is not easily forgotten or surpassed. I think part of the issue is of course that even if something is more detailed or 'clearer sounding,' that doesn't mean it captures the dynamic shadings and subtle tonal qualities that best suggest you're hearing live un-amplified music. Thus far, for me, the PUC suggests a real piano and violin slightly more plausibly than the half broken-in F-1.
> Rb tells us that another hundred hours may further even the score (pun intended and not a bad one eh?) We shall see...
> 
> He also tells us a Star tech will throw the score out the window I'd love to check that one out with either the PUC or F1. Saving up...
> ...


 

 Well I'd say making any pronoucements on the F-1 - half burned in - is a little suspect.  Same for using only a couple of classical tracks.  Some people's pronoucements on the PUC vs F-1 - without EVER hearing it is even more suspect.
  
 I have to say your musical tastes are pretty narrow.  I listen to mostly classical all day at work on my office system and I have a large collection - about 400 albums and CD's
 At night in my main system I listen to Rock, Jazz, Alt, Emo, Vocals, and some newer vocalists you might call pop - you know all music with bass and drums.  The F-1 just smokes the PUC2 Lite in that department.
  
 I think I have a pretty good idea what great analog sounds like - I doubt many on this thread had the $30K+ analog rig (not including my CJ ARt2 pre and Response Hurricane mono block tube amps) I had and about 400 LPs - most new 200gm and 180gm pressings.  Had that system for 10 yrs - so have a good idea what great analog sounds like.
  
 And the F-1 with my uber data and power chains  - crushes it.  Nuance, tone, dynamics, clarity, musicality, sweetness, sound staging, depth and definition of bass, etc...now unfortunately a $70 TeraDak X1 and a $30 Jitterbug will not get you there.
  
 Now my evaluation of the F-1 vs the PUC2 lite which I had for many months when on for a solid week - using my favorite tracks (see my 6922 tube review for the list and reasons for selection) plus many more.  At the end of the week I sold the PUC2 Lite at a $100 loss.  There really was no comparison for me - the F-1 smoked it.
  
 But for those considering the $483 PUC2 Lite (based on 10  yr old tech - right prot?) - how about a dollar of dollar comparison say a couple of choices:
  
 1) F-1 ($179)+W4S Recovery ($200)+Curious 200mm USB link ($120)
 or
 2) F-1($179) + a iFi USB 3.0 nano($200)+DC iPurifier ($100)
 or
 3)F-1($179) + iPurifier2($100)+DC iPurifer($100) and save $100
 or
 4)F-1($179) + ICRON 1GB LAN USB($429) - yeah that's an extra $125
  
 I bet anyone of these combo's would smoke the PUC2 Lite by an even greater degree.  For the same money I'd go option #1, if you could swing it definitely #4 would be my recommendation.
  
 Now as far a criticizing other's choice in music - well - ALL music on our stereos is produced and recorded - some well, some not so well.  I will not judge peoples preferences - I have a friend who ONLY listens to opera recorded in mono on 78 shellacs - has an amazing collection - swears any music made after 1920 is total crap.  I love Enrico Caruso - but to me it sounds like it was recorded in a telephone booth with a coffee can and a string...to each his own.  I find the most difficult for a stereo to reproduce is the solo piano and female vocals - some very, very nuanced.  Take George Winston for example (see my tube review) I have seen him live about a half dozen times - amazing.   As 'nuanced' as they come.


----------



## wushuliu

Considering the price difference, I take onlythat's impressions so far as very positive.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Considering the price difference, I take onlythat's impressions so far as very positive.


 

 Yes, that was what I was kind of getting at - best bang for the audio dollar.  But for me in my evaluation - money was not a concern (as you can see money within reason is not a deciding factor for me - it's SQ).  And after the F-1, I'd say the PUC2 Lite was next in line.  But money aside, in my two systems (one with a R2R DAC), after a through comparison, the F-1 was in a whole other league.
  
 But as they say YMMV.


----------



## prot

onlythat said:


> Yes Prot, there is definitely something about Mary and something about the PUC It is certainly one of those components that has this thing it does with musical nuance that is hard to put into words (at least for me) but that once heard, is not easily forgotten or surpassed. I think part of the issue is of course that even if something is more detailed or 'clearer sounding,' that doesn't mean it captures the dynamic shadings and subtle tonal qualities that best suggest you're hearing live un-amplified music. Thus far, for me, the PUC suggests a real piano and violin slightly more plausibly than the half broken-in F-1.
> Rb tells us that another hundred hours may further even the score (pun intended and not a bad one eh?) We shall see...
> 
> He also tells us a Star tech will throw the score out the window I'd love to check that one out with either the PUC or F1. Saving up...
> ...




Jazz, classic, chillout & ambient .. and there is nothin like the Puc for that stuff. Pianos & cymbals and voices are just floating in the room .. like they should. 
And of course, Mary and her 'something' are there too


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Well it's not just jitter - but the clocks they use have extremely high levels of phase noise - so I don't know if their appoarch solves that.  I know that Alex from APL audio uses multiple DACs in series to reduce noise.  MY APL DAC has 6 AKM 32-bit DAC's per channel - for a total of 12.
> 
> I want to say that the use of a iPurifer2 into the GB LAN USB made a very significant improvement in it's already shocking SQ improvement.  So maybe even more juice to be made from this fruit.  I have a LPS coming and a DC iPur to feed the REX end.
> 
> So we'll see.  BTW I like the Recovery slightly more then the Regen, but they both work well with the F-1 DDC.  Sometimes not always the case with different DAC's and DDC's.




On jitter vs phase noise, you should read this article. These quantities are two ways of looking at the same thing. Low jitter implies low phase noise and the other way around. So basically, 12 ps means both very low phase noise and jitter.

http://ewh.ieee.org/r7/toronto/chapters/ssc/JitterXandXPhaseXNoise.pdf


----------



## Currawong

Out of curiosity I tried switching between having the F-1 go directly into the Yggy, but using an Oyaide USB cable, versus having it directly connected via an adaptor to the iUSB 3.0 and using a Harmonic Tech S/PDIF cable. The latter was slightly brighter-sounding. It's hard to know if this is actually better or worse and is causing me to wonder again about USB cables. 
  
 Quote:


jfrocke said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > The box arrived and I've been having fun with drills and files. Now I'm going to have to unsubscribe I think, lest I start getting tempted to buy more gear to tweak with!
> ...


 

 I kludge. I put the board in, then line the plate up on the horizontal and mark just outside of the USB port, then do the same on the vertical. Then I rule across the lines. It's clear in the last photo. I then drill the corners with the smallest drill bit I have, and the centre with the largest that will fit. Then I file the rest out. The plate is very thin, so it doesn't take long. 
  
 For the S/PDIF socket, I put the board in and sit it so that the end of the port is flush with the end of the case then measure how many mm the centre of the port is from the bottom of the case. Then I drill on that point in the centre. 
  
 It is all very easy to figure out with just a ruler, fine marker and steady hands.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Jazz, classic, chillout & ambient .. and there is nothin like the Puc for that stuff. Pianos & cymbals and voices are just floating in the room .. like they should.
> And of course, Mary and her 'something' are there too


 

 Wait until you hear the F-1 - yours hasn't arrived yet - 'prolly' in the mail


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## ccschua

To measure such a low phase noise, the equipment alone will cost amlot more. Its so difficult to see manufacturer publish phase noise data.


----------



## hugoboss

another great product from ifi to maximize the performance on f1
  
  

  
  
 ifi spdif purifier
 pic taken from john darko web
  
  
 pc usb - ifi iub3- ifi spdif prufier - f1
 yes all set and let's the race begin!


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> On jitter vs phase noise, you should read this article. These quantities are two ways of looking at the same thing. Low jitter implies low phase noise and the other way around. So basically, 12 ps means both very low phase noise and jitter.
> 
> http://ewh.ieee.org/r7/toronto/chapters/ssc/JitterXandXPhaseXNoise.pdf


 

 Thanks - here is the SiTime Whitepaper on Jitter and Phase Noise - they are not the same thing.  Measured in different ways.  Phase noise measures are quoted in decibels not ps.  The guy who wrote that doesn't know much.  And there is more then one kind of jitter.
  
 http://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf


> *1 Introduction *Jitter is the timing variations of a set of signal edges from their ideal values. Jitters in clock signals are typically caused by noise or other disturbances in the system. Contributing factors include thermal noise, power supply variations, loading conditions, device noise, and interference coupled from nearby circuits. 2 Types of Jitter Jitter can be measured in a number of ways; the following are the major types of jitter: • Period Jitter • Cycle to Cycle Period Jitter • Long Term Jitter • Phase Jitter • Time Interval Error (TIE


 


> *2.4 Phase Jitter* Phase noise is usually described as either a set of noise values at different frequency offsets (e.g., -60 dBc/Hz at 20KHz and -95 dBc/Hz at 10MHz), or as a continuous noise plot over a range of frequencies. Phase jitter is the integration of phase noises over a certain spectrum and expressed in seconds. In a square wave, most of the energies are located at the carrier frequency. However, some signal energies are “leaked-out” over a range of frequencies on both sides of the carrier. Phase jitter is the amount of phase noise energy contained between two offset frequencies relative to the carrier (fc). Figure 6 is an unfiltered phase noise plot and the shaded areas represent the phase jitter between frequencies f1 and f2.


 
 As you can see from figure 6. on page 8 - Phase Noise Plot
  
 TXCO and OXCO clock manufacturers Like NDK and Crystek quote all Phase Noise in decibels.


 Crystek CCHD-957 Datasheet:
 http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/cchd-957.pdf


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> another great product from ifi to maximize the performance on f1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!  Sweeeeeet.  I have this and it works great W4S Remedy on my R2R DAC60 - didn't do much on the APL NWOjr.
  
 Speaking of Crystek CHD-957 clocks - that's what W4S uses in the Remedy (and the Recovery I believe - but haven't openned mine).
 https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/remedy-reclocker
  
 Got to give this one a try  - when funds allow.  How much?


----------



## hugoboss

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!  Sweeeeeet.  I have this and it works great W4S Remedy on my R2R DAC60 - didn't do much on the APL NWOjr.
> 
> Speaking of Crystek CHD-957 clocks - that's what W4S uses in the Remedy (and the Recovery I believe - but haven't openned mine).
> https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/remedy-reclocker
> ...


 

 $150
  
 this years to many good things comes.
 my wallet i sburning now hahahaha
  
 here is the link
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/ifi-audios-spdif-ipurifier-debuts-at-fujiya-avic-spring-2016/


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> $150
> 
> this years to many good things comes.
> my wallet i sburning now hahahaha


 

 Och!  Well I see a clock but not a CCHD-957 - looks like a XO.


----------



## rb2013

currawong said:


> I kludge. I put the board in, then line the plate up on the horizontal and mark just outside of the USB port, then do the same on the vertical. Then I rule across the lines. It's clear in the last photo. I then drill the corners with the smallest drill bit I have, and the centre with the largest that will fit. Then I file the rest out. The plate is very thin, so it doesn't take long.
> 
> For the S/PDIF socket, I put the board in and sit it so that the end of the port is flush with the end of the case then measure how many mm the centre of the port is from the bottom of the case. Then I drill on that point in the centre.
> 
> It is all very easy to figure out with just a ruler, fine marker and steady hands.


 

 Yes USB cables make a difference.
  
 Nice case work!


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## hugoboss

in the video ifi said the clock is super fast clock like 250mhz or something.
 any kind of spdif cable will got reclok inside to become better
  
  
 https://vimeo.com/164856359


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## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> in the video ifi said the clock is super fast clock like 250mhz or something.
> any kind of spdif cable will got reclok inside to become better


 
  Yes - and it also says:
  
 Quote:


> ...essentially ​_any​_S/PDIF-restricted streamer – and you can’t stretch to a​Wyred4Sound Remedy​or​Empirical Audio Synchro-Mesh​to lift the quality of its digital audio output then you’ll probably want to sit up and listen to this.​


 
 Darko loves the Remedy but it's $300 - I got lucky and bought one on Audiogon for $200
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/ifi-audios-spdif-ipurifier-debuts-at-fujiya-avic-spring-2016/


----------



## onlythat

rb2013 said:


> Well I'd say making any pronoucements on the F-1 - half burned in - is a little suspect.  Same for using only a couple of classical tracks.  Some people's pronoucements on the PUC vs F-1 - without EVER hearing it is even more suspect.
> 
> I have to say your musical tastes are pretty narrow.  I listen to mostly classical all day at work on my office system and I have a large collection - about 400 albums and CD's
> At night in my main system I listen to Rock, Jazz, Alt, Emo, Vocals, and some newer vocalists you might call pop - you know all music with bass and drums.  The F-1 just smokes the PUC2 Lite in that department.
> ...


 

 A few points.  Yes-- my taste in music is actually EXTREMELY narrow. Has been for many years.  Largely acoustic and almost all classical and opera with some jazz trios thrown in on sunday mornings.  Just the way I'm wired I guess.  As my brief head to head stated repeatedly, this was only a preliminary comparison born of my own anxiousness to see what's what in terms of any basic discernible relative qualities (and forgive me for my anxiousness!  For 100 hours i haven't actually listened to the damn F-1;  just played low background music through it!) and maybe to tip off any curious/expectant onlookers as to any obvious respective prowesses in either converter in the process.
  
  Musical fare was purposely narrow because I've been listening to this stuff for 30 years so I kinda know how it 'should' sorta sound (to me) on a stereo and because the point was only to try and highlight some key differences (if any) at this time in the F-1 break in process.   A decent recording of music and artists from a genre I know well suits this better than random track selections from a genre or genres I don't.  
  
 Anyone taking such a narrow prelim report to read something like "the PUC is better all around now and forever" should be shot!  Nah; that's too severe. I'll just say that that would be their inference and NOT my implication.  
  
 Also, I've never owned a 30 thousand dollar analogue set up and so am at a loss to compare either the PUC or the F-1 to it. 
  
  
  
 PS-- I think Enrico Caruso actually WAS recorded in a telephone booth with a coffee can and a string!  That was the technology back then


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> A few points.  Yes-- my taste in music is actually EXTREMELY narrow. Has been for many years.  Largely acoustic and almost all classical and opera with some jazz trios thrown in on sunday mornings.  Just the way I'm wired I guess.  As my brief head to head stated repeatedly, this was only a preliminary comparison born of my own anxiousness to see what's what in terms of any basic discernible relative qualities (and forgive me for my anxiousness!  For 100 hours i haven't actually listened to the damn F-1;  just played low background music through it!) and maybe to tip off any curious/expectant onlookers as to any obvious respective prowesses in either converter in the process.
> 
> Musical fare was purposely narrow because I've been listening to this stuff for 30 years so I kinda know how it 'should' sorta sound (to me) on a stereo and because the point was only to try and highlight some key differences (if any) at this time in the F-1 break in process.   A decent recording of music and artists from a genre I know well suits this better than random track selections from a genre or genres I don't.
> 
> ...


 

 LOL!  He was awesome - too bad not born a few decades later.
  
 No Worries - just give it some time to settle in.  I to use stuff that I have heard a few thousand times - usually both on vinyl and CD - some on DVD-A or SACD.  My APL NWOjr can play those as well.  In fact there were these things called 'Dual Discs' had 96k/24 on one side and 44/16 on the other - have a few of those too.
  
 I do find your consideration of the tone on the F-1 not beating the PUC2 interesting.  But my set-up is very different - as is my APL DAC and Heavily modded R2R DAC60(both tubed - running my fav 'HG' Russian 6n23p tubes).
  
 On my intregrated amps - I did a major mod project on them a year ago - replacing all the coupling film caps with totl Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil's so my system tone wise is truly spectacular.  Those beasts were a challenge to mount (roughly 4x bigger then the stock WIMA Red's) and a small fortune - but worth it.


 Ran out of room on top and went below:

 Here were the stock caps:


----------



## onlythat

Sadly, if he were born today he wouldn't even make it onto the Tonight Show because no-one cares about opera plus; no Tonight Show   Sigh.
  
  Back to background music break-in with the F-1.  Only 100 more hours to go...   Listen; neither converter is safely in the bulletproof limousine under the hotel... yet...  
  
  
 Wait a minute--- Did you just INSULT my 70 dollar Teradak!!???    NOBODY puts baby in a corner!


----------



## Sanlitun

Congratulations on this great thread. If you are a USB fanatic and a DIY type then this is paradise.
  
 I'm planning on ordering the F-1 this weekend. For some time I have been feeling that my trusty Audiophilleo is getting a bit outdated.
  
 One thing, is there a FAQ for this with links to drivers and the various enclosures and power ideas?


----------



## rw35

freda said:


> On jitter vs phase noise, you should read this article. These quantities are two ways of looking at the same thing. Low jitter implies low phase noise and the other way around. So basically, 12 ps means both very low phase noise and jitter.
> 
> http://ewh.ieee.org/r7/toronto/chapters/ssc/JitterXandXPhaseXNoise.pdf


 

 Cool, good info thanks for that... my concern at the moment is the Intona really does sound great and changing to USB>LAN might not achieve anything for me, but I do get that it might be a shade better due to the robustness of tcp/ip. It's a shame that rb2013 hasn't mbeen able to do this comparison but it's not right to expect him to have tried every permutation for our benefit - he's already gone the extra mile and then some in that respect = thanks again.
  
 I would say that my current system sounds like a huge dollop of 3D crystalline gel (double cream that you can see through), but utterly controlled = for me, the holy grail sonic combo and one that I've searched for, for 20 years.
  
 So, if it ain't broken don't fix it... or carry on the search by trying F-1 and USB>LAN???


----------



## sbgk

time to start a XU216 thread, what do you think of this ?
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html#/xmos_option-xmos_768k_and_oled_0_96_pcb


----------



## Octagon

sbgk said:


> time to start a XU216 thread, what do you think of this ?
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html#/xmos_option-xmos_768k_and_oled_0_96_pcb



Hi Gordon,

recognized this one before but decided to go for the F-1 because of the galvanic isolation design. We recognized with different setups and technology like LWL or cat that this is one key in sq, did'nt we.

F-1 is playing here since yesterday and effects are comparable to other setups I have had but much better. Orientation grows with the clearer bass structure provided and depth of the stage wins enourmous in distinct details of every instrument. As some have already said, it is like there is room added to every single instrument. Missing noise ends up with less irritation and the clearity helps our brain to get a much better picture of single instruments or voices and live music scenarios.

Great fun to listen and there is room for improvement feeding battery power etc. etc.

Take care
Thomas


----------



## wakka992

> But for those considering the $483 PUC2 Lite (based on 10  yr old tech - right prot?) - how about a dollar of dollar comparison say a couple of choices:
> 
> 2) F-1($179) + a iFi USB 3.0 nano($200)+DC iPurifier ($100)
> or
> 3)F-1($179) + iPurifier2($100)+DC iPurifer($100) and save $100


 
  
 Where would you use DC iPurifer when iPurifier2 doesn't need power and iFi USB 3.0 nano comes bundled with a iPower 9V?


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> That is exactly what I did!
> And I dont plan to change my 'heretic' opinions anytime soon ...


 
  
 Hi !   sorry to jump in and if i have missed previous posts  ...  are you using the PUC2 Lite version or the other ?
 with a usb external power supply maybe ? which one ?
 Thanks and regards,  gino


----------



## Caper

rw35 said:


> Cool, good info thanks for that... my concern at the moment is the Intona really does sound great and changing to USB>LAN might not achieve anything for me, but I do get that it might be a shade better due to the robustness of tcp/ip. It's a shame that rb2013 hasn't mbeen able to do this comparison but it's not right to expect him to have tried every permutation for our benefit - he's already gone the extra mile and then some in that respect = thanks again.
> 
> I would say that my current system sounds like a huge dollop of 3D crystalline gel (double cream that you can see through), but utterly controlled = for me, the holy grail sonic combo and one that I've searched for, for 20 years.
> 
> So, if it ain't broken don't fix it... or carry on the search by trying F-1 and USB>LAN???


 
 Also using a Intona in my F1 chain and really pleased with the SQ.
 Think I´ll be happy for a while but keep watching this thread.
 Maybe upgrade my speakers instead


----------



## prot

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !   sorry to jump in and if i have missed previous posts  ...  are you using the PUC2 Lite version or the other ?
> with a usb external power supply maybe ? which one ?
> Thanks and regards,  gino



The original Puc2 full edition. Ebay score for about €200 .. second hard and pre-burnedin for years, it can hardly get better than that 
I sometimes use a LiPo battery as usb power .. very stable & clean power for about €20 (e.g. on amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/RAVPower-16750mAh-Portable-External-Technology-Black-y/dp/B00OJXVDAU). Dont know if it makes an SQ diff and dont care .. just had it around the house. And the puc sounds excellent from the laptop Usb power with the included cables .. no need for any usb drama.


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> The original *Puc2 full edition*.   Ebay score for about €200 .. second hard and pre-burnedin for years, it can hardly get better than that
> 
> 
> 
> ...
 
  
 Hi thanks a lot for the kind and interesting reply.   Yes.  200 Euro is a very good price.  A guy here is asking 350.
 Last question ... *are you using its AES/EBU digital out or the XLR analog outs ?  *
 just to understand the quality of the internal clock circuit.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## rw35

I've sent these guys a message telling them that they must consider releasing a DC version so that people can use their own LPS, be interesting to see what the response is:
  
 2016 Singxer SU-1 USB digital interface with XMOS XU208
  
 ... that box that makes quite a bit of sense to me but I would deffo want to use an external 'posh' LPS with it.I like Swagman Labs SE edition LPS's, they use top end parts.


----------



## rw35

caper said:


> Also using a Intona in my F1 chain and really pleased with the SQ.
> Think I´ll be happy for a while but keep watching this thread.
> Maybe upgrade my speakers instead


 

 Cool, bet that sounds v good... all I would say is use a good LPS with everything that accepts one, it often makes quite a big difference.


----------



## ginetto61

rw35 said:


> I've sent these guys a message telling them that they must consider releasing a DC version so that people can use their own LPS, be interesting to see what the response is:
> 2016 Singxer SU-1 USB digital interface with XMOS XU208
> ... that box that makes quite a bit of sense to me but I would deffo want to use an external 'posh' LPS with it.I like Swagman Labs SE edition LPS's, they use top end parts.


 
  
 Hi !  very smart idea.   They have no much to do by the way.   *Just a connection with a suitable point on the board and a new dc socket on the rear panel.  *
 They could even provide the double option ... from the main or from a new dc socket. 
 In general the idea to have the mains transformer out of the box is very very smart.  Very.
 The quality of the power supply is of paramount importance in this case. I guess.
 Bye,  gino


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Thanks - here is the SiTime Whitepaper on Jitter and Phase Noise - they are not the same thing.  Measured in different ways.  Phase noise measures are quoted in decibels not ps.  The guy who wrote that doesn't know much.  And there is more then one kind of jitter.
> 
> http://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
> As you can see from figure 6. on page 8 - Phase Noise Plot
> ...




In think you might have a point, but let me tell you my own understanding.

I think that both quantities are related, and that is what your paper says. 0 phase noise means 0 jitter and vice versa. But the chart in db/hz is interesting in that it characterizes the energy distribution over the frequency domain and tells you how that noise will affect the sound. Still, if jitter is miniscule, its energy distribution will not matter because you will not hear any sound degradation.

The phase noise is assumed to have gaussian distribution, meaning its peak value is around 7 times the stated global figure, which is a standard deviation. Again, the db/hz distribution indicates the frequency contents of noise plus the carrier. By integrating this chart, you get a global figure for phase noise and jitter. If everything is normal in the statistical sense, low jitter will translate into a satisfying frequency distribution graph. 

In my understanding, you are right somehow in the sense that the low frequency contents could still be significant, for instance let's say -90db at 20hz. In an audio signal, it will translate into a degradation of the bass.

 For audio transmission over usb, does the low frequency part of phase noise (and the rest of the noise, by the way) matter? Probably because asynch usb has no error correction (just transmission speed adjustments determined by the receiver) and jitter in the input means jitter in the output. In case of a ddc, it means jitter in the signal to the dac. But to dig deeper, that speed adjustment thing will create ponctual jitter in itself. So the ddc has to reclock the data because it will have high jitter anyway. So we are led to considerations like how does that the overall gaussian jitter affect the ability of the ddc to output a jitter-free signal. I can't answer that question. 

But i believe asynch usb to transmit audio in not the best protocol for sure. It is just convenient, It seems very hard to decode the signal to obtain a jitter free output to the dac. And it prone to signal contamination.

In any case, i should get an f-1 board soon. In really like the overall design of this ddc. The fact that both the receiving and transmitting part are well isolated from each other and that they each have their own xmos processor.


----------



## prot

ginetto61 said:


> Hi thanks a lot for the kind and interesting reply.   Yes.  200 Euro is a very good price.  A guy here is asking 350.
> Last question ... *are you using its AES/EBU digital out or the XLR analog outs ? *
> just to understand the quality of the internal clock circuit.
> Regards,  gino



http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/forums/index.php?showtopic=8273&hl=Yellowtec
Use google translate or just check the many pics of the internals. I only tested the Dac & analog out briefly and it's actually good. Around 2008-9 when it was released it was compared with the Benchmark1 Dac. 
$300-350 is a good price, especially if you plan to use all its studio features.

sbgk
Dont get your hopes up . I just use 'preschooler' to call anyone who wants to keep their brain in a pre-school state. Most kindergarten seniors already know that a ruler always 'knows' better than your eyes. But many so called audiophiles just wont 'believe' that an osciloscope knows better than their ears in the exact same way. And a lot of that "my dac is better than yours" siliness is not much more than the childish "my older brother can beat yours". 
Oh well, it's a beatiful beach day here and hopefully everywhere.


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/forums/index.php?showtopic=8273&hl=Yellowtec
> Use google translate or just check the many pics of the internals. I only tested the Dac & analog out briefly and it's actually good. Around 2008-9 when it was released it was compared with the Benchmark1 Dac.
> $300-350 is a good price, especially if you plan to use all its studio features.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a lot again for the very interesting information
 Actually I was looking indeed for a usb to AES/EBU converter and this was very high on the most wanted units list
 The Mutec MC-3 + USB  unit is also very very nice but at least twice the cost.  But it is very nice indeed.
 But then i made a side move .. i bought a Tascam uh-7000
 Maybe i made a mistake.
 i am still thinking what way to go
 Thanks a lot again,  gino
 P.S.  yes ... a wonderful day.  Maybe too much.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Sadly, if he were born today he wouldn't even make it onto the Tonight Show because no-one cares about opera plus; no Tonight Show   Sigh.
> 
> Back to background music break-in with the F-1.  Only 100 more hours to go...   Listen; neither converter is safely in the bulletproof limousine under the hotel... yet...
> 
> ...


 

 I have one!  Except I swapped out the caps for Nichcon HW in the X1 - running in my office system feeding the Regen.  The larger R-Core DC 30W are much better plus adding the DC iPurifier really helped.  BTW both are using the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme Red power cords - that alone doubles thier performance - really remarkable power cords.
  
 X1/X2  with Nichicons:

  
 DC-30W


----------



## rb2013

sanlitun said:


> Congratulations on this great thread. If you are a USB fanatic and a DIY type then this is paradise.
> 
> I'm planning on ordering the F-1 this weekend. For some time I have been feeling that my trusty Audiophilleo is getting a bit outdated.
> 
> One thing, is there a FAQ for this with links to drivers and the various enclosures and power ideas?


 
 Not that I'm aware of - just the 1000+ pages of this thread!
  


rw35 said:


> Cool, good info thanks for that... my concern at the moment is the Intona really does sound great and changing to USB>LAN might not achieve anything for me, but I do get that it might be a shade better due to the robustness of tcp/ip. It's a shame that rb2013 hasn't mbeen able to do this comparison but it's not right to expect him to have tried every permutation for our benefit - he's already gone the extra mile and then some in that respect = thanks again.
> 
> I would say that my current system sounds like a huge dollop of 3D crystalline gel (double cream that you can see through), but utterly controlled = for me, the holy grail sonic combo and one that I've searched for, for 20 years.
> 
> So, if it ain't broken don't fix it... or carry on the search by trying F-1 and USB>LAN???


 
 Thanks!  I never bought the Intona (mainly the issues @Superdad raised) but liked the idea of galvanic isolation.  Just waiting for the Uber Regen from Uptone or a second gen of the Intona.  Now I hear JCAT has one coming!  Yes a USB GI.  But when I heard Paul's LANRover Youtube that really had me intrigued...now more so reading @Superdad's post on the AOIP solution they were working on.  I have to say this ICRON/Regen did payoff HUGE!
  


sbgk said:


> time to start a XU216 thread, what do you think of this ?
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html#/xmos_option-xmos_768k_and_oled_0_96_pcb


 
 Wondering if the upcoming next gen of DIYinHK  DXIO Pro4a will have the XU216 or the XU208?  I'm in line for one of the first ones off the production line.  I really don't see the big advantage - the 1000MIPS XU208 should be more then enough - twice the processing power of the U-8.  As for 768khz - who cares


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


>





> I have one!  Except I swapped out the caps for Nichcon HW in the X1 -...


 
  
 Hi !  i guess that recapping has been beneficial.  Then i would recap also the big one (very beautiful. I think i will buy one pretty soon).
 Regards,  gino


----------



## rb2013

octagon said:


> Hi Gordon,
> 
> recognized this one before but decided to go for the F-1 because of the galvanic isolation design. We recognized with different setups and technology like LWL or cat that this is one key in sq, did'nt we.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice Review!  Very well said. 
 Cheers!


----------



## mourip

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !  very smart idea.   They have no much to do by the way.   *Just a connection with a suitable point on the board and a new dc socket on the rear panel.  *
> They could even provide the double option ... from the main or from a new dc socket.
> In general the idea to have the mains transformer out of the box is very very smart.  Very.
> The quality of the power supply is of paramount importance in this case. I guess.
> Bye,  gino


 
 +1
  
 Switchable would be perfect however since it already has what looks like a simple internal LPS my guess is that they felt it was already a good compromise between quality, price, and convenience. They might not be too hot for the "switchable" idea due to uncontrollable warranty vulnerability. You know.... "It says 12 volts but I bet my 19v laptop PS will work."
  
 It would be a piece of cake to do DIY however.
  
 You would void the warranty but who takes the warranty seriously from an overseas manufacturer with no local dealer?
  
 Sure. Just $hip it back and we will fix it


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Where would you use DC iPurifer when iPurifier2 doesn't need power and iFi USB 3.0 nano comes bundled with a iPower 9V?


 

 Well I replied to the poster who already had a TeraDak X1/X2 to feed the PUC2.
  
 With the iUSB3.0 you could use either the X1 LPS set for 9VDC or the included iPower - to see which sounded best.
  
 The DC iPurifier would clean the power on the X1 LPS - as the regulators they use are not the quietest.
  
 My comparsion was for the money spent on the PUC2 vs a F-1 plus some other goodies...best bang for the audio buck


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> I've sent these guys a message telling them that they must consider releasing a DC version so that people can use their own LPS, be interesting to see what the response is:
> 
> 2016 Singxer SU-1 USB digital interface with XMOS XU208
> 
> ... that box that makes quite a bit of sense to me but I would deffo want to use an external 'posh' LPS with it.I like Swagman Labs SE edition LPS's, they use top end parts.


 
 Yes!~ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


freda said:


> In think you might have a point, but let me tell you my own understanding.
> 
> I think that both quantities are related, and that is what your paper says. 0 phase noise means 0 jitter and vice versa. But the chart in db/hz is interesting in that it characterizes the energy distribution over the frequency domain and tells you how that noise will affect the sound. Still, if jitter is miniscule, its energy distribution will not matter because you will not hear any sound degradation.
> 
> ...


 

 Well no matter how you translate it - decibels is the std for quoting TXCO and OXCO clock phase noise.  Now remember decibles are a power factor function - so each 3dB is roughly a doubling.


> dB​power ratio​amplitude ratio​100​  10 000 000 000​ ​100 000​ ​90​1 000 000 000​ ​31 623​ ​80​100 000 000​ ​10 000​ ​70​10 000 000​ ​3 162​ ​60​1 000 000​ ​1 000​ ​50​100 000​ ​316​.2​40​10 000​ ​100​ ​30​1 000​ ​31​.62​20​100​ ​10​ ​10​10​ ​3​.162​6​3​.981​1​.995 (~2)​3​1​.995 (~2)​1​.413​1​1​.259​1​.122​0​1​ ​1​ ​−1​0​.794​0​.891​−3​0​.501 (~1/2)​0​.708​−6​0​.251​0​.501 (~1/2)​−10​0​.1​0​.316 2​−20​0​.01​0​.1​−30​0​.001​0​.031 62​−40​0​.000 1​0​.01​−50​0​.000 01​0​.003 162​−60​0​.000 001​0​.001​−70​0​.000 000 1​0​.000 316 2​−80​0​.000 000 01​0​.000 1​−90​0​.000 000 001​0​.000 031 62 ​  −100​0​.000 000 000 1​0​.000 01​An example scale showing power ratios _x_ and amplitude ratios √_x_ and dB equivalents 10 log10 _x_. It is easier to grasp and compare 2- or 3-digit numbers than to compare up to 10 digits.​


 
 The clocks that Intona use are the cheapest in the new SiLabs clock line up - SiLabs makes some very nice XO's with decent phase noise numbers - unfortunately I could not find any for the Si50x MEMS used in the Intona - but I did find this chart - you notice that SiLabs quotes (in the non-std ps) the numbers for their XO crystals - but omit that for the MEMS Si50x series - just ranking them at the bottom and the cheapest:
  
*Figure 15. Price/Performance Comparison of Si50x CMEMS Oscillator vs. Si51x, Si59x, and Si53x/5x/7x XOs​* 

 This is what I posted on the Intona thread a while back:
 1/22/16 at 9:27pm



 
 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/3c/100x100px-LS-3c5d6de5_OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest2.png[/img]
 
rb2013
Author of *The 6922 Tube Review*




 
*online*
 
4,107 Posts. Joined 4/2013
 


  Regarding the clocks in the Intona - one must keep in mind they are non-crystal MEMS.  This was based on the design criteria of having to with stand <2G lateral acceleration 24/7.  As Intona states:
  


> Then the quality of the crystal oscillator is important too. Are you using, say, Crystek oscillators? It is a SiLabs MEMS oscillator, with measured Jitter around 2ps. This is, because *1. we have some customers that need mechanicly rugged hardware because they use our isolators at repeated >2g acceleration 24h/7d - crystals will fail her*e - and 2. power consumption of MEMS is 1/10 of crystals. As all voltage regulators are linear in the isolator, we had to pay attention to overall efficiency.





*Figure 15. Price/Performance Comparison of Si50x CMEMS Oscillator vs. Si51x, Si59x, and Si53x/5x/7x XOs​*  

  
 It looks like they use the CMEMS S150X - the lowest cost and lowest performance in the SiLabs line-up.  Certainly against their crystal based clocks.  I did not see a phase noise plot vs freq as is std for NDK and Crystek on these clocks.   But they do perform well in a high G environment.
  
The other point is the main intended use - that is DC line surge galvanic isolation.   And a shake-proof case.  This is because of the industrial not audio design parameters.
  


> Table 1Model Types, Ordering Codes and Differences
> Standard VersionModel Nr. 70541kV isolation, standard temperature grade, standard connectorsIndustrial VersionModel Nr. 7054-X2.5kV isolation, specified isolation working voltage, extended temperature grade, high retention connectors
> Both models are also available as bare bone version without enclosure. Resin hardened version for extreme mechanical demands (shakeproof) upon request.​





 Not saying it won't improve some systems - but may not do much in well designed ones.






  
 Now it appears the Intona was designed for industrial/military use - so has to be able to with stand high G force lateral accerlation (figter jets usage?), so as they mention normal XO's can't deal with that - but MEMS can.  So that was the design decision to use them - not because they had the lowest jitter or phase noise.  This was NOT designed as an audio product per se - but industrial/military.  It was not designed to improve audio high fidelity - but as protection circuit for mission critical USB linked devices (that is what the 1kV and 2.5kV rating tell you - how much current surge they are designed to protect against).  Much as 1GB and 1GB Ethernet LAN's have built in.
  
 So Intona quotes 2ps for the clocks they use (not the overall device) - that compares to SiLabs' totl Si53x series at 0.3 ps.  Now in comparison to NDK SD and Crystek CCHD-975 and CCHD-575 they are orders of magnitude greater - on even their best clocks.  This was the reason I choice not to build out a Soekris R2R DAC.  I believe that is why SiLabs quotes their phase noise numbers in non-std ps instead of decibles.  The CMEMS clocks in the Intona likely have from 1,000% to as much as 10,000% greater phase noise in the audible band then the best NDK or Crystek's.


----------



## rb2013

Here was my post from my Soekris R2R DAC DAM-1021 Thread:
  


> 4/13/15
> Thread Starter
> 
> [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/3c/100x100px-LS-3c5d6de5_OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest2.png[/img]
> ...


 
 Now here SiTime rates the 0.8ps Si514 as just 'Good' performance - where does that place the Intona's CMEMS at 2ps?  Bad????


----------



## rb2013

Now here is the phase noise plot of SiLabs totl lowest jitter clock the Si535:
  
 Figure 1:
 http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/Si535-536.pdf
  
 Approx:
 10Hz        -75dB
 100Hz      -115dB
 1Khz         -122dB
 10kHz       -130dB
 100kHz     -135dB
  
 Unfortunatley they don't show a chart for the MEMS used in the Intona.  But from the ps measures it's orders of magnitude worse then their best Si535
  
 Now here are the numbers for the Crystek CCHD-575 used in the F-1:
 http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-575.pdf
  
 10Hz       -100dB
 100Hz     -130dB
 1kHz        -151dB
 10kHz      -163dB
 100kHz    -166dB
  
 So back to our decible power ratio chart:

dB​power ratio​amplitude ratio​100​  10 000 000 000​ ​100 000​ ​90​1 000 000 000​ ​31 623​ ​80​100 000 000​ ​10 000​ ​70​10 000 000​ ​3 162​ ​60​1 000 000​ ​1 000​ ​50​100 000​ ​316​.2​40​10 000​ ​100​ ​30​1 000​ ​31​.62​20​100​ ​10​ ​10​10​ ​3​.162​6​3​.981​1​.995 (~2)​3​1​.995 (~2)​1​.413​1​1​.259​1​.122​0​1​ ​1​ ​−1​0​.794​0​.891​−3​0​.501 (~1/2)​0​.708​−6​0​.251​0​.501 (~1/2)​−10​0​.1​0​.316 2​−20​0​.01​0​.1​−30​0​.001​0​.031 62​−40​0​.000 1​0​.01​−50​0​.000 01​0​.003 162​−60​0​.000 001​0​.001​−70​0​.000 000 1​0​.000 316 2​−80​0​.000 000 01​0​.000 1​−90​0​.000 000 001​0​.000 031 62 ​  −100​0​.000 000 000 1​0​.000 01​An example scale showing power ratios _x_ and amplitude ratios √_x_ and dB equivalents 10 log10 _x_. It is easier to grasp and compare 2- or 3-digit numbers than to compare up to 10 digits.​

 So let's compare SiLabs BEST - Lowest Jitter clock (not their worst - the ones used in the Intona) Si535 to the F-1 CCHD575:
  
 10Hz difference 25dB greater phase noise for the BEST SiLabs XO clock - around 500X more noise.
  
 100Hz difference 15dB greater phase noise for the BEST SiLabs XO clock - say 50x more noise.
  
 1kHz difference 29dB greater phase noise for the BEST SiLabs XO clock - say 400X more noise.
  
 10kHz difference 33dB greater phase noise for the BEST SiLabs XO clock - say 700x more noise.
  
 So say for the Silabs MEMS clocks used in the Intona - add a factor of 10.
  
 That means between 500 times to 7,000 times more phase noise in the audible band - do you think that's noticible????  Why introduce an expensive device that increases the noise so much  - just for galvanic isolation?  But obviously GI on USB is so critical for SQ that it out weighs the phase noise issues.  So folks report much better sound quality.


----------



## FredA

rw35 said:


> Cool, good info thanks for that... my concern at the moment is the Intona really does sound great and changing to USB>LAN might not achieve anything for me, but I do get that it might be a shade better due to the robustness of tcp/ip. It's a shame that rb2013 hasn't mbeen able to do this comparison but it's not right to expect him to have tried every permutation for our benefit - he's already gone the extra mile and then some in that respect = thanks again.
> 
> I would say that my current system sounds like a huge dollop of 3D crystalline gel (double cream that you can see through), but utterly controlled = for me, the holy grail sonic combo and one that I've searched for, for 20 years.
> 
> So, if it ain't broken don't fix it... or carry on the search by trying F-1 and USB>LAN???




+1 for the Intona. I think it's worth every penny and more. My computer-based audio sounds better than reclocked CDs fed optically to a di2014 by an oppo 103 dvd player by a clear margin, and we are not talking of beating an ordinary setup. The oppo-di2014 combination sounds very good, took me years to just equal it. The computer based setup ( aq jb -> schiit syrd -> intona -> breeze du-u8 -> master 7 through i2s ) sounds much better. It has more depth and details and is even more relaxed. The tonal balance is similar however. The intona will stay in my setup for a long time. However, with all usb component, proper usb cable matching matters. Impedance matching, i suppose. One of the usb cable i own is key in my setup. There is a clear downgrade when i take it out.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Yes!~
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Design is not just about the components you use . It is mostly on how you combine them. And as they say, the proof is in the pudding. The intona had more of an impact in my system than the beeeze, which in itself made my jaw drop. Those guys who made the Intona seem to know what they are doing. I do design myself for a living, software, and i am pretty good at it. It's a form of art and there are not many things in life i admire more than a great design, like the last generation Honda Prelude or the latest 3 series from BMW, or the general architecture of buildings in Barcelona, or in NYC. The Intona, as far as i know, is a great design as well. They could have put it in an aluminum box, at that price, but otherwise, there is not much to complain about. It delivers in my setup. But be aware the fact that like any USB component i know of, it is sensitive to usb cables. Proper matching is mandatory. I am sure you can attest of that fact. 

Anyway, i can only thank you for doing all that testing with such enthousiasm. Makes things go forward. Like any individual, no one is perfect, but all of us together, we are. And we help inproving things in computer audio. This thread is moving very fast, it is a bit frightening in fact, but a lot of fun.


----------



## onlythat

rb2013 said:


> I have one!  Except I swapped out the caps for Nichcon HW in the X1 - running in my office system feeding the Regen.  The larger R-Core DC 30W are much better plus adding the DC iPurifier really helped.  BTW both are using the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme Red power cords - that alone doubles thier performance - really remarkable power cords.
> 
> X1/X2  with Nichicons:
> 
> ...





Rb- I think the better DC 30 power supply though you show here is for DC only eh? And I use the Teradak X1 for the power leg of my split USB cable for the F-1 and the PUC. 
 So I can't replace the Teradak with the bigger Teradak because there's no USB 5V power out on the DC 30 right? 

If that's the case- does the ifi 3.0 get me both a better/cleaner USB power supply than the Teradak AND an iPurifier and DC power (9V) to boot? 

Or maybe Teradak makes a bigger badder power supply for USB? 

 Essentially- if I'm not using a regen or the first version of the iPurifier (which is DC powered), what's the use of the big Teradak in my system?


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Rb- I think the better DC 30 power supply though you show here is for DC only eh? And I use the Teradak X1 for the power leg of my split USB cable for the F-1 and the PUC.
> So I can't replace the Teradak with the bigger Teradak because there's no USB 5V power out on the DC 30 right?
> 
> If that's the case- does the ifi 3.0 get me both a better/cleaner USB power supply than the Teradak AND an iPurifier and DC power (9V) to boot?
> ...


 

 Well you are right the DC-30w can be set for 5VDC  - but does not have a USB port.  You would have to get a 2.5mm to USB adapter cable.
  
 Or you could get a cheaper iUSB2.0 and set the DC-30w to 9VDC  to power it.  The iUSB2.0 has a USB power port.  You could add a iPurifier2 to it and a DC iPur to get a better then iUSB3.0.
  
 Either of these would be better then the X1 - as the DC-30W uses an R-Core transformer better at PSRR.
  
 My choice (and the way I went) was using either a Regen or a Recovery - powering it with the DC-30w.  Both take the 9VDC input and with ultra low noise regulators filter the power and output 5VDC to the F-1.


----------



## rb2013

For your Saturday night viewing pleasure - nudies of the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB boards:
  

  

  


  
  
 Wow!  Full blown SPARTAN 6 FPGA's!  Whoa - and the ASIC to the left.  The clock is an XO's but can't make out which ones - they're NOT SiTime CMEMS!  Well didn't expect that  - I don't think these were designed for >2G lateral acceleration. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   The bottom of the cases is marked 'Made in Canada'
  
 Very impressive!  The SPARTIN 6 is famous for use by Chord in their top DACs (the DAVE uses the even more advanced sota SPARTAN 7).
 Chord Hugo DAC:

  
  
 By comparison the Intona board - note the lack of XO clocks:


----------



## somestranger26

The operation on my Master-11 is finally complete. I cut some pieces off an old Hifiman HE-6 cable which is made of OCC copper wire and used that to wire the F-1 directly to the motherboard with 96/3.5/0.5 silver/copper solder.
  
 I suck at soldering and the I2S socket looks like a warzone but it works and it sounds even better than RCA. Can't A/B but it is definitely a step up like the difference between 0 and 20 hours of burn-in.
  
 Before:

  
 Comparison of Audio-GD Amanero board and Singxer F-1. The Singxer is slightly wider and much longer. It barely fits inside the M11.

  
 I was originally going to solder the standoffs onto the board but the Singxer board is so dense they would have made contact with some caps and resistors on the board, so what I ended up doing is wrapping the standoffs in insulating tape and then taping them to the board. I didn't want to hassle with glue because it is very difficult to get the positioning right to line up with the screwholes and I wouldn't want to screw anything up ripping off glue. It is a bit ghetto but it works.
  

  
 After:


----------



## hugoboss

somestranger26 said:


> The operation on my Master-11 is finally complete. I cut some pieces off an old Hifiman HE-6 cable which is made of OCC copper wire and used that to wire the F-1 directly to the motherboard with 96/3.5/0.5 silver/copper solder.
> 
> I suck at soldering and the I2S socket looks like a warzone but it works and it sounds even better than RCA. Can't A/B but it is definitely a step up like the difference between 0 and 20 hours of burn-in.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 SUPER DUPER GREAT JOB,
  
 seeing your way i afraid to mod my nos7 amanero it's look not a easy job. maybe just wait for kingwa to release a new xu208 usb module
 btw have you test the i2s connection and the usb after upgrade. which is superior?


----------



## hugoboss

btw singxer just released a new usb moule called c1 maybe this is for people who want to upgrade the usb module inside the dac
  
*C-1 XMOS USB Digital Interface Module XU208  femtosecond TCXO* *C-1 The reason why high-end positioning, mainly adopted two black & Technology:*
 
1, source-synchronous technology and CPLD shaping technology;
2, the independent development of the system clock, using *customized high-performance crystal* , ultra-low phase noise, low jitter.
  



  
  
  
 @ sometranger, pls take alook on this new board. is it gonna be more easy to replace the amanero usb on audiogd?
 seems like this is the module for me to replace my amanero on nos 7


----------



## somestranger26

hugoboss said:


> seeing your way i afraid to mod my nos7 amanero it's look not a easy job. maybe just wait for kingwa to release a new xu208 usb module


 
 I doubt Kingwa will come out with a board that sounds better than the Singxer F-1. Kingwa's expertise is in the analog side of things... the digital interfaces are not all that great.
  
 The most difficult thing to do was solder the wires to the socket which required breakinig pieces off of it to give enough room, but you can just use a ribbon cable to avoid that. When I asked Kingwa about what sort of ribbon cable to buy, he suggested wiring it directly like I did. Would have been much easier if I had the proper tools for the job, such as a thinner tip for my soldering iron. This is the first time I've soldered something that actually worked so it was a learning experience and took 3 hours to do... someone who solders regularly could probably do it in 30 minutes.
  


hugoboss said:


> btw have you test the i2s connection and the usb after upgrade. which is superior?


 
  
 What do you mean by this? It sounds a little better than RCA, a lot better than Breeze DU-U8 via I2S, and I thought the Breeze sounded better than the Amanero.
  
 Quote:


hugoboss said:


> btw singxer just released a new usb moule called c1 maybe this is for people who want to upgrade the usb module inside the dac
> 
> *C-1 XMOS USB Digital Interface Module XU208  femtosecond TCXO*
> @ sometranger, pls take alook on this new board. is it gonna be more easy to replace the amanero usb on audiogd?
> seems like this is the module for me to replace my amanero on nos 7


 
  
 The size of the F-1 is not what made it difficult to install. Also, C-1 does not have the isolation circuit that the F-1 has and I think the isolation circuit is one of the reasons it sounds so amazing. I would just get the F-1 if I were you.


----------



## hugoboss

i mean the i2s connection in hdmi or the rj45 versus the usb in f1 after you put in the master 11, which one sound better?
 i have f1 already , just found this newer c-1, and looking the smaller size just think it will be easier job to fit inside.
 so in your opinion f-1 looks better then c-1..
 thanks


----------



## somestranger26

hugoboss said:


> i mean the i2s connection in hdmi or the rj45 versus the usb in f1 after you put in the master 11, which one sound better?
> i have f1 already , just found this newer c-1, and looking the smaller size just think it will be easier job to fit inside.
> so in your opinion f-1 looks better then c-1..
> thanks


 
 Well it would depend on what you're connecting via I2S... it sounds better than the Breeze DU-U8 via RJ45. I still don't really understand the point of this question since it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.


----------



## hugoboss

ok i got you.
 thnaks again for the nice picture in your mod, it's very helpfull


----------



## sbgk

somestranger26 said:


> The operation on my Master-11 is finally complete. I cut some pieces off an old Hifiman HE-6 cable which is made of OCC copper wire and used that to wire the F-1 directly to the motherboard with 96/3.5/0.5 silver/copper solder.
> 
> I suck at soldering and the I2S socket looks like a warzone but it works and it sounds even better than RCA. Can't A/B but it is definitely a step up like the difference between 0 and 20 hours of burn-in.
> 
> ...


----------



## somestranger26

sbgk said:


> I thought I2S wires should be twisted pair.
> 
> I'm looking at doing the same thing to my Gustard X12 which would connect the F1 I2S to the X12 internal usb card slot, presumably it uses I2S. This would also be useful for the x20 as well as it uses the same internal usb card connector.


 
 I doubt there would be much difference with such a short length (these wires are about 3 inches long). The cable that used to be there was just some cheapo flat ribbon cable, no twisted pairs. Good luck with your X12 mod. This F-1 board is the best $200 I've ever spent on audio.


----------



## ginetto61

freda said:


> ...  The computer based setup ( aq jb -> schiit syrd -> intona -> breeze du-u8 -> master 7 through i2s ) sounds much better. It has more depth and details and is even more relaxed. The tonal balance is similar however. The intona will stay in my setup for a long time. However, with all usb component, proper usb cable matching matters. Impedance matching, i suppose. One of the usb cable i own is key in my setup. There is a clear downgrade when i take it out.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the interesting advice.  I think that usb connection is critical.
 But *what i really would appreciate is a device who takes care of all the issue.*
  
 I see in your chain:
*AQ JB*  >  i guess it decreases the *jitter*
*Schiit Wyrd *>  also the *jitter* and some usb *isolation* ? *but not galvanic *i have been told
*Intona* >  *galvanic isolator and also jitter*
  
 What is my point ?
  
 my point is that *in a usb connection we have two issues to deal with ... 1) galvanic isolation and 2) jitter reduction.*
 Why is not possible to have a single device addressing both the problems ?
 Actually i hear that at Uptone they are thinking about this and soon they will release a super Regen providing also galvanic isolation.
 Good lord !  it was about time !   better late than never ...
  
 However* the Intona at least on the paper is very close to be a one for all devices*
 what is missing in the Intona is a nice dc socket for an external high quality power supply
 and it could be almost perfect
 a device relying only on usb bus power ... oh my god ... 
  
 Have a nice day,  gino
  
 P.S. i am waiting for this Super Regen with anxiety


----------



## rw35

> However* the Intona at least on the paper is very close to be a one for all devices*
> what is missing in the Intona is a nice dc socket for an external high quality power supply
> and it could be almost perfect


 
  
 Intona sounds *really great,* but I think does _very slightly_ benefit from the W4S Recovery after it (probably explaining rb's points), it's easy to power it with LPS via a split cable. Also maybe a metal box might be beneficial, I have copper screening tape, is it worth covering the plastic box?
  
 I just bought the F-1 for experimenting, looking forward to having a play... not heard back yet about the SU being available with DC in, maybe we should make a thread on here and lobby for it, then we can send them here?
  
 ps: rb...is this the correct USB>LAN product? https://www.ballicom.co.uk/usb2g4lext2-startech-com-4-port-usb-2-0-over-lan-.p1009343.html


----------



## motberg

rw35 said:


> Intona sounds *really great,* but I think does _very slightly_ benefit from the W4S Recovery after it (probably explaining rb's points), it's easy to power it with LPS via a split cable. Also maybe a metal box might be beneficial, I have copper screening tape, is it worth covering the plastic box?
> 
> I just bought the F-1 for experimenting, looking forward to having a play... not heard back yet about the SU being available with DC in, maybe we should make a thread on here and lobby for it, then we can send them here?
> 
> ps: rb...is this the correct USB>LAN product? https://www.ballicom.co.uk/usb2g4lext2-startech-com-4-port-usb-2-0-over-lan-.p1009343.html


 

 Yep - I am using a Recovery after the Intona, a little benefit, but noticeable - and different flavor from a Regen in the same position.
 However there have been folks who prefer the Intona without reclocking, but I think that may be because they may have defeated the GI in the chain when adding the reclocking device. 
 (Besides the split cable idea rw35 mentions, a self powered USB card like the PPA stuff also can provide clean power.)
 IIRC reclocking after the Startech LAN/USB adapters also added benefit...
 Besides the Uptone new device, the PS LANRover may also offer a single device solution with better clocks.... but I would think there are some folks who do not want to get involved with a wired LAN setup.
 Also, given my experience with the Regen vs. the Recovery, I would prefer to have the choice actually.. the sound differences were very similar to tube rolling.
 I have a pretty good dedicated audio computer.. for me the Intona GI is a key part of the chain and worth the price. I will wait until the Uptone and PS devices ship until I consider to change anything.
 What I would really like is to try something like a Raspberry with some special i2S output direct to my DAC... just to hear what things sound like with no USB...
  
 Can anyone comment on how the Sonore uRendu compares to the Startech solution? http://www.microrendu.sonore.us/


----------



## FredA

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the interesting advice.  I think that usb connection is critical.
> But *what i really would appreciate is a device who takes care of all the issue.*
> 
> I see in your chain:
> ...




The does-it-all device will come. I would like a ddc including galvanic isolation. Because a computer is such a source of garbage, the perfect ddc should inlcude much more isolation than it currently does.

Just a note on my setup: I put the wyrd first because it feeds the intona with very clean dc. And because i think it's best to put galvanic isoation as close to the ddc as possible.

It is also a challenge to make a great ddc. You want to isolate you digital ouputs from all the noise created by the processors. You mostly want to isolate the clock signal. Also feed it it with the cleanest dc possible. I suppose the code implementing the functionality must be the most compact possible, since the less the processor works, the less it generate noise. I would really like to work on such a device, at least, write the code.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rw35* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Intona sounds *really great,* but I think does _very slightly_ benefit from the W4S Recovery after it (probably explaining rb's points), .  it's easy to power it with LPS via a split cable
> Also maybe a metal box might be beneficial, I have copper screening tape, is it worth covering the plastic box? ....


 
   
 Thanks again.  When i see how many devices are needed to provide a good transmission of the signal i wonder if usb has been a wise choice.
 For instance length is also a clue.  Usb cannot go beyond 6 meters when other standards have no problem up to 100-150 meters. 
 However they have decided the standard ....   
 Bye, gino


----------



## ginetto61

freda said:


> *The does-it-all device will come*. I would like a ddc including galvanic isolation. Because a computer is such a source of garbage, the perfect ddc should inlcude much more isolation than it currently does.
> Just a note on my setup: I put the wyrd first because it feeds the intona with very clean dc. And because i think it's best to put galvanic isoation as close to the ddc as possible.


 
 Yes you are very right.  But i have a little confusion about which units provide indeed galvanic isolation and which not ?
 I have tried cheap isolators they work but the sound gets strange ... i guess they increase the jitter as a side effect.
 So a reclocker is always needed.
  


> *It is also a challenge to make a great ddc. *You want to isolate you digital ouputs from all the noise created by the processors. You mostly want to isolate the clock signal. Also feed it it with the cleanest dc possible.
> I suppose the code implementing the functionality must be the most compact possible, since the less the processor works, the less it generate noise.
> I would really like to work on such a device, at least, write the code.


 
  
 i agree also.  I notice that very few offer galvanic isolation for instance.  So they need an isolator in the chain.
 Instead i admire a lot the *Berkeley Audio usb alpha* ... if i am not wrong it has been the 1st to provide galvanic isolation and reclocking in just one package.
 Not cheap but State of the Art for sure.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## roger7

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the interesting advice.  I think that usb connection is critical.
> But *what i really would appreciate is a device who takes care of all the issue.*
> 
> I see in your chain:
> ...


 
  
 There are such solutions (DDC, GI and recklocking) but pricey, were mentioned here few times. Afi usb and Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB (the one rb is to review):
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/1110#post_12553414
  
 There was "fashion" in usb audio for reclocking, now is for galvanic isolations. Manufactures see it and soon they will release cheeper products with all these features.
  
 Intona wasn't designed for audio (the same goes for Startech/Icron extenders) but for industrial purposes. But someone has started using it in audio and thought it's good. So you can't find fancy power socket. But you can always use splitted usb cable with LPS of your choice.


----------



## roger7

motberg said:


> Can anyone comment on how the Sonore uRendu compares to the Startech solution? http://www.microrendu.sonore.us/


 
  
 I think it's hard to compare a network player with a general purpose USB over LAN extender...


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *roger7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> There are such solutions (DDC, GI and recklocking) but pricey, were mentioned here few times.
> Afi usb and Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB (the one rb is to review):
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/1110#post_12553414
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks for the valuable advice.  Yes i have seen them and from what i have read the Mutec is indeed one of the best ...
 i have seen graphs showing how effective it is in reducing the jitter. Very impressive unit. Pricey but really professional.
 I am quite sure that a galvanic isolator adds jitter because i tried one cheap and did not like the sound at all. 
 So the isolator should be followed by a jitter reduction device, like in the Intona i understand.
 Again ... why using usb ?  it is clearly a poor standard for this purpose.
  
*I really wonder how professionals do not have problems with high rez multichannel piped through usb ... it is a real mistery to me.  *
  
 maybe they use something else ...
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## motberg

roger7 said:


> I think it's hard to compare a network player with a general purpose USB over LAN extender...


 

 Thanks for the reply and I understand - but I wonder specifically about the GI capability and the LAN>USB conversion software doing the data processing handling... 
 Is there some inherent technical advantage to the Startech Gigabit GI configuration as compared to the mRendu?
 I guess there may be not enough details yet available, but such a comparison may be helpful in understanding the potential of the upcoming PS device.... 
 Also, maybe a crazy question, but would multiple simultaneous USB outputs be usable to drive separate DAC's, like for subs or bi-amped speakers.. or is that better done analog?


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> The operation on my Master-11 is finally complete. I cut some pieces off an old Hifiman HE-6 cable which is made of OCC copper wire and used that to wire the F-1 directly to the motherboard with 96/3.5/0.5 silver/copper solder.
> 
> I suck at soldering and the I2S socket looks like a warzone but it works and it sounds even better than RCA. Can't A/B but it is definitely a step up like the difference between 0 and 20 hours of burn-in.
> 
> ...


 
 Nice work!  Can you give the pins you used and the GD match ups?


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> btw singxer just released a new usb moule called c1 maybe this is for people who want to upgrade the usb module inside the dac
> 
> *C-1 XMOS USB Digital Interface Module XU208  femtosecond TCXO* *C-1 The reason why high-end positioning, mainly adopted two black & Technology:*
> 
> ...


 

 Nice find!  So a F-1 but this one has NDK SD clocks vs Cyrstek CCHD575.  Wonder which sounds better?


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> I doubt there would be much difference with such a short length (these wires are about 3 inches long). The cable that used to be there was just some cheapo flat ribbon cable, no twisted pairs. Good luck with your X12 mod. *This F-1 board is the best $200 I've ever spent on audio.*


 
 Cheers to that!


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Intona sounds *really great,* but I think does _very slightly_ benefit from the W4S Recovery after it (probably explaining rb's points), it's easy to power it with LPS via a split cable. Also maybe a metal box might be beneficial, I have copper screening tape, is it worth covering the plastic box?
> 
> I just bought the F-1 for experimenting, looking forward to having a play... not heard back yet about the SU being available with DC in, maybe we should make a thread on here and lobby for it, then we can send them here?
> 
> ps: rb...is this the correct USB>LAN product? https://www.ballicom.co.uk/usb2g4lext2-startech-com-4-port-usb-2-0-over-lan-.p1009343.html


 

 Yes that's the one.


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Yep - I am using a Recovery after the Intona, a little benefit, but noticeable - and different flavor from a Regen in the same position.
> However there have been folks who prefer the Intona without reclocking, but I think that may be because they may have defeated the GI in the chain when adding the reclocking device.
> (Besides the split cable idea rw35 mentions, a self powered USB card like the PPA stuff also can provide clean power.)
> IIRC reclocking after the Startech LAN/USB adapters also added benefit...
> ...


 

 Well my thinking is the 1GB LAN USB is a Intona on steroids - much better clocks (probably close to 100 times less phase noise), better FPGA's, and a dual layer of galvanic isolation the GB LAN transformer level then the deeper USB to TCP/IP packet translation.
  
 I believe this is why the SQ improvement is so fundementally dramatic.
  
 Now when folks speak of the Intona's galvanic isolation - they mean from the PC's noisy ground plane.  Running am externally fed Regen or Recovery after the intona does not change that.
  
 As far not wanting to 'get involved with a wired LAN setup' - my two ICRON/Startech boxes sit right new to each other with a meter BJC CAT6a cable connecting them.  Hardly noticible visually.  A long distance LAN is not necessary to it's sonic attributes.
  
 Here are the board for the Regen:

  
 Note the XO clock:

  
 And the Recovery - note the Crystek CCHD575 clock:

  
 I bet the better clock in the Recovery is why it sounds better...


----------



## rb2013

See the latest issue of Stereophile (page 41 I believe)  Follow-up item called: 'Ethernet DAC vs Ethernet DAC'
  
 Compared the NADAC 8 (AES67 RAVEENA GB LAN Ethernet) to the exaSound e28 + PlayPoint NAA player (UpNP + DLNA - NAA).
  
 Although the NADAC 8 ($11,500) is more then double the price of the e28+PlayPoint.  This is what they said:


> The scaling of image size and weight to dynamics, as well as the more subtle ambience, was a signature trait of the Merging Technologies NADAC.  Sure, the exaSound did that too but with less conviction.  I'm not going to toss my e28, but the NADAC does justify its far higher cost.


----------



## rb2013

ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB - Very impressive boards!
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> For your Saturday night viewing pleasure - nudies of the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB boards:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## juanitox

rb2013 said:


> Nice work!  Can you give the pins you used and the GD match ups?


 

 i read somewhere that there is a DC/DC converter on the F1 board ( the big black box) , is it a 5V to 3.3V converter ? 
 i"m thinking of feeding the second part with a proper voltage belleson regulator.
  
 cheers


----------



## rb2013

juanitox said:


> i read somewhere that there is a DC/DC converter on the F1 board ( the big black box) , is it a 5V to 3.3V converter ?
> i"m thinking of feeding the second part with a proper voltage belleson regulator.
> 
> cheers


 

 I don't know - maybe @abartels could answer


----------



## FredA

hugoboss said:


> i mean the i2s connection in hdmi or the rj45 versus the usb in f1 after you put in the master 11, which one sound better?
> i have f1 already , just found this newer c-1, and looking the smaller size just think it will be easier job to fit inside.
> so in your opinion f-1 looks better then c-1..
> thanks




Seems pretty similar to the f-1 without the rca output. I want one. Nice find indeed!


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> For your Saturday night viewing pleasure - nudies of the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB boards:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Very sexy stuff! Looks very well made.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Very sexy stuff! Looks very well made.


 

 ICRON has a great reputation.  Made in Canada.


----------



## KEGGER

Singxer X-1 Module here.
 (contacted rb2013 and picked up his extra, thanks again)
  
 -------
  
Not that anyone is interested in the X-1, or an slightly upgraded mid-fi setup.​



​ But I've been through a bunch of testing/listening and research here for myself.​ (basically just getting the computer audio setup, figuring it all out on a budget system)​​ ​ So I went from an old usb dac just 16/44.1, borrowed some other stuff from a buddy, an​​ Nuforce U192S, MF V-dac, Emotiva XDA-1, and used my old Theta dac on the Nuforce adapter.​​ ​ The Nuforce was a revelation, made all the Dac's sound tremendously better then the 1st usb dac here.​​ ​ I gave all the borrowed stuff back, got the new Singxer X-1 module with coax out connected to my old Theta.​​ If it didn't get any better than this I could be quite happy in this environment I think here.​  
First thing I noticed with the X-1 in the mix is better imaging, with a more solid centered vocal, and overall just smoother.​ (the more time I get on it I can post more if there is interest in this setup)​



​ ​ My Theta only does 24/48 max, so I'm on the hunt for a good sounding bargain DAC with coax in that does at least 192K.​​ (anyone happen to have dac suggestions, in like say $250 and under range, new or used I'm all ears, on the mellow side)​​  
 Also at the moment I'm running straight out of the USB power, Thinking maybe a Schiit Wyrd might be a good option there?
  
Cheers,​​ Keg​​ ​ P.S. The new Santana IV sounds fantastic on the 24/48 download I got..​


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> Singxer X-1 Module here.
> (contacted rb2013 and picked up his extra, thanks again)
> 
> -------
> ...


 

 Nice write-up.  The X-1 the hidden jem!  Heck for $60 how can you go wrong?  NDK SD ultra low noise clocks.

  
 PS instead of the Wyrd - get a $80 TeraDak X1/X2 linear power supply to feed it.
  
 Be sure to get one with the USB power breakout cable.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/TeraDak-TeraLink-X1-X2-DC8-5V-1A-USB-DC5V-port-Linear-Power-Supply-/181467993450?hash=item2a4055d56a:g:LzQAAOxyVVJR~9Nv


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Yes that's the one.


 

 LOL... Just bought the StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN, hell why not!
  
 Now to find out what voltage and current the LPSs for the 2 boxes will need to be?


----------



## somestranger26

I just ordered a used Lightspeed 2G USB cable, iFi DC iPurifier, and a DC30W to upgrade my USB chain.
  
 Current chain:

```
Recapped Belkin USB card > Cabledyne 1m USB > USB Regen > Curious Regen Link > Singxer F-1
```
  
 New chain:
  

```
Recapped Belkin USB card > Lightspeed 2G 1m USB > USB Regen > Curious Regen Link > Singxer F-1 ^ Teradak DC30W > iFi DC iPurifier
```
  
 I think I will wait until the souped up PS Audio version of this LAN extender comes out to upgrade that. I know the cables and power supplies aren't going to become suddenly outdated so I feel comfortable pulling the trigger on those now. I'm also powering everything from a PS Audio P5 power regenerator although the AC in my apartment is so god-awful that the noise coming out is worse than my friend's incoming power. ~7% THD at night and ~2.3% THD out from the regenerator.
  
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> Nice work!  Can you give the pins you used and the GD match ups?


 
 From top to bottom...
  

```
[u]M11 Singxer F-1 board[/u] LRCK -> LRCLK DA -> SDATA BCK -> BCLK MCK -> MCLK GND -> GND GND -> Not connected 3.3V -> Not connected
```



juanitox said:


> i read somewhere that there is a DC/DC converter on the F1 board ( the big black box) , is it a 5V to 3.3V converter ?
> i"m thinking of feeding the second part with a proper voltage belleson regulator.
> 
> cheers


 
 It has to because the I2S pinout has 3.3V output, but I don't know if it actually uses that power or if it's there for connecting downstream devices like say an LVDS converter.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> From top to bottom...
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


 

 Thanks!
  
 BTW Will be interesting to get you take on the SQ improvements from the better PS chain


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> LOL... Just bought the StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN, hell why not!
> 
> Now to find out what voltage and current the LPSs for the 2 boxes will need to be?


 

 The Reciever (REX) takes 24V (although @Superdad said as low as 10VDC would work.) this is the LPS i bought:
  
 Set for 24V http://www.ebay.com/itm/161870356771?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Adding a DC iPurifier to that.
  
 The sender (LEX ) uses 5VDC from the USB line.  Mine is powered by a PPA V2 PCIe to USB card with an external 1uv  5VDC iPower. 
  
 At some point I might get a JC-2 and power everything from it:
 http://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply
  
 PS This one also looks interesting: *KECES DC-116 DC Regulated Linear Power Supply*
*Wonder what the noise measurements are?*
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/KECES-DC-116-DC-Regulated-Linear-Power-Supply-for-Headphone-Amplifier-DAC-Preamp/272135533285?_trksid=p2047675.c100012.m1985&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131230161411%26meid%3Dd474365407ce499a8bfd7776b13224a0%26pid%3D100012%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D271863658322


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> The Reciever (REX) takes 24V (although @Superdad said as low as 10VDC would work.) this is the LPS i bought:
> 
> Set for 24V http://www.ebay.com/itm/161870356771?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cool thanks, do you know what amps the 24v end needs?
  
 (I usually use *SwagmanLab SE* PSUs as they have: "Nuvotem Talema transformer, Nichicon capacitors, Dale resistors, Furutech IEC socket, EMI filter, Silver plated copper internal wiring etc". The two I already have sound great, they are circa £160 delivered over here).
  
 PS: I've seen the KECES, that looks a neat box.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Cool thanks, do you know what amps the 24v end needs?
> 
> (I usually use *SwagmanLab SE* PSUs as they have: "Nuvotem Talema transformer, Nichicon capacitors, Dale resistors, Furutech IEC socket, EMI filter, Silver plated copper internal wiring etc". The two I already have sound great, they are circa £160 delivered over here).
> 
> PS: I've seen the KECES, that looks a neat box.


 

 1A should be plenty if you're not using the other USB ports to power anything - and why would you.
  
 PS Do you have a link to that SwagmanLab website - sound very good, although I do prefer R-Cores.


----------



## rw35

http://www.swagmanlab.com/
  
 (I only have his SE editions... he'll make anything you want)


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> For your Saturday night viewing pleasure - nudies of the ICRON/Startech 1GB LAN USB boards:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hi Robert:
  
 The Broadcom chip to the left of the FPGA is an Ethernet PHY, not an "ASIC."   I know that the nonsense about the Icron-licensed LANRover started with Paul McGowan's video, so I won't finger you for that.   Except for things like isolator type, regulator quality and power network, and overall topology, one can not really judge a design by looking at the size of its FPGA.  A larger FPGA (or a newer XMOS chip) means nothing.  It is the content and function of the code the designer programs into it that matters.  The Intona and Icron devices are taking two completely different approaches, and Intona had to write their own USB protocol engine to accomplish what they did.  Icron's trick is all in the code they wrote for USB>Ethernet packet translation, though they still use standard Ethernet and USB PHY and hub chips on both ends.
  
 I did find interesting your report of USB cables (and I assume other upstream changes in the computer s/w & h/w as well) still making a difference with the Icron/Startech GB-LAN boxes at the head end.  That means that variation in USB signal integrity--and its impact on the LEX-end PHY (and its clocks, ground plane, etc.)--is getting "baked into" the data that gets converted to Ethernet packets and back at the other end.  Would appreciate hearing more about what you tried and experienced at the head end.  We have some ideas about how such could be eliminated, but the possibility of local end signal variation having an impact is troubling--and likely controversial in some quarters.  It also impacts one of our future product ideas--including the back-burnerred USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge project you liberally quoted me about.
  
 Hope everyone had a great weekend---and that you all remembered to call your mothers today!
  
 --Alex C.


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> The Reciever (REX) takes 24V (although @Superdad said as low as 10VDC would work.) this is the LPS i bought:
> 
> Set for 24V http://www.ebay.com/itm/161870356771?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 

 I was thinking about the JS-2, but now with the 24V requirement, maybe need something else... it would be really good to find out about the PS options for the Startech/etc. Gigabyte LAN 24V side.. I think that would need a pretty beefy PS....
  
 also I am not sure the PS-2 dual outputs are isolated from each other...


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Hi Robert:
> 
> The Broadcom chip to the left of the FPGA is an Ethernet PHY, not an "ASIC."   I know that the nonsense about the Icron-licensed LANRover started with Paul McGowan's video, so I won't finger you for that.   Except for things like isolator type, regulator quality and power network, and overall topology, one can not really judge a design by looking at the size of its FPGA.  A larger FPGA (or a newer XMOS chip) means nothing.  It is the content and function of the code the designer programs into it that matters.  The Intona and Icron devices are taking two completely different approaches, and Intona had to write their own USB protocol engine to accomplish what they did.  Icron's trick is all in the code they wrote for USB>Ethernet packet translation, though they still use standard Ethernet and USB PHY and hub chips on both ends.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Alex,
  
 Thanks for the info - yes of course you are right it all comes down to the total design but I do believe individual components do matter.  I was surprised to see the SPARTAN 6 processor - that an awful lot of FPGA horsepower.  I guess this USB to TCP/IP conversion is no small task.  I'm assuming that is what is doing the conversion.
  
 Your post gave me an idea - I will try tonight.  I'll take the Regen in my office system and try it at the head of the LEX, in place of the iPur2, and in combination.  Will report what the SQ changes I hear.
  
 As you mention power supplies - I'm beginning to really appreciate what clean power can mean.  The real surprise for me in going through this exercise to the great promise that digital offers. 
  
 Sorry to hear your USB >Ethernet Bridge is still back burnered - but looking forward to the uber Regen and the new PS product.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> I was thinking about the JS-2, but now with the 24V requirement, maybe need something else... it would be really good to find out about the PS options for the Startech/etc. Gigabyte LAN 24V side.. I think that would need a pretty beefy PS....
> 
> also I am not sure the PS-2 dual outputs are isolated from each other...


 

 I will send ICRON a email, with the Startech board number just to confirm we can use a lower voltage PS safely.
  
 I'll be interesting to see what enhancements PS Audio puts into their LANRover.
  
 Great stuff coming!


----------



## KEGGER

rb2013 said:


> kegger said:
> 
> 
> > Singxer X-1 Module here.
> ...


 
  
 Not disagreeing just wondering, 
  
 Wouldn't the Wryd be similar? And add a bit of help/cleanup with it's other function as well?
 It "seems" they would do the same thing with a linear supply for the 5v usb, plus the rest of what the Wyrd is built for.
  
 Just trying to figure what the best options are for my particular setup/needs and coming from having nothing there at the moment to maybe a piece that does a little more then just usb power?
 (trying to figure all these devices people are using/needing, and keeping a small budget in mind I was looking at things that maybe did multiple jobs, instead of just buying multiple things) 
  
 Regens, and clockers, and jitterbugs, and itona's and usb voltage sources/cleaners, it would be nice it there was a product or 2 that address more than 1 thing a piece at a time, and worked decent.
  
 I'm all for education on these things an what others suggest, I'm just now trying to figure it out, what really is needed, what really is a benefit to sound quality, right now no issues at all with it "working".
 (I don't have any driver or lock issues, no reproduction problems, audio is rock solid, just looking at sound quality related bare minimum others would suggest are warranted)
  
 Cheers all..


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> Not disagreeing just wondering,
> 
> Wouldn't the Wryd be similar? And add a bit of help/cleanup with it's other function as well?
> It "seems" they would do the same thing with a linear supply for the 5v usb, plus the rest of what the Wyrd is built for.
> ...


 

 Well I have not had a Wryd - but everything I have read about it says it's no where near the Regen or Recovery in terms of SQ (see the stereophile report).  With Regen now selling for $120 used - that is the direction I would go.  The Wyrd does not add a linear power on it's own, that has to be provided separately.  The Wryd, like the Regen and the Recovery only provide a SMPS wall wart.
  
 So I think the LPS is the first step - then a Regen or Recovery.


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> So I think the LPS is the first step - then a Regen or Recovery.


 
 Wyrd runs off AC so don't buy a linear power supply for it (expecting to use it with a future regen or recovery).


----------



## KEGGER

(just for info, no one specific)
 In the Wyrd description is says,
  
 "Power Supply Type: linear, with precision low-noise (2.5uV) voltage regulators"
  
 Again I don't know this device,
 But just because something has a wallwart doesn't mean it can't have a linear supply, it's just being used here as a stepdown ac transformer with the dc done inside the unit.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Well I have not had a Wryd - but everything I have read about it says it's no where near the Regen or Recovery in terms of SQ (see the stereophile report).  With Regen now selling for $120 used - that is the direction I would go.  The Wyrd does not add a linear power on it's own, that has to be provided separately.  The Wryd, like the Regen and the Recovery only provide a SMPS wall wart.
> 
> So I think the LPS is the first step - then a Regen or Recovery.


 
  
  
 The Wyrd absolutely does have a linear power supply, with the AC transformer located in the wall wart and conversion/filtering/regulation inside of the Wyrd.


----------



## Gordian

Hi All, 
  
 Has someone tried the XU208 with Linux ?
  
 Thx


----------



## ciphercomplete

gordian said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Has someone tried the XU208 with Linux ?
> 
> Thx




Yep, works great


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> juanitox said:
> 
> 
> > i read somewhere that there is a DC/DC converter on the F1 board ( the big black box) , is it a 5V to 3.3V converter ?
> ...


 
 provide a picture please, i'll look into it then


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> I will send ICRON a email, with the Startech board number just to confirm we can use a lower voltage PS safely.
> 
> I'll be interesting to see what enhancements PS Audio puts into their LANRover.
> 
> Great stuff coming!


 
 Thanks for following on the power supply requirements for the Startech...
 I think PS Audio DAC's include* i2S inputs*... maybe a better clock and outputs to USB/SPDIF/*i2S* ??
 Got that right!


----------



## rw35

Reply back from the Singxer SU-1 USB' guys...
  
  
 Q. "I really think you MUST also make a DC version so that 'we' can use our own fancy linear power supplies, if you do, count me in, I will want one. There is already talk of people preferring to go with F-1 due to being able to control how it's powered. Please consider doing this, it would be easy for you to do."
  
  
*A. "Thanks a lot for your advice, we will thinking about that."*
  
  
 ... Looks promising.


----------



## abartels

rw35 said:


> Reply back from the Singxer SU-1 USB' guys...
> 
> 
> Q. "I really think you MUST also make a DC version so that 'we' can use our own fancy linear power supplies, if you do, count me in, I will want one. There is already talk of people preferring to go with F-1 due to being able to control how it's powered. Please consider doing this, it would be easy for you to do."
> ...


 
  This indeed looks promising, if they could provide an extra DC input for XO's on clean side, to power them externally, it even would be better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Maybe ask them to take this into consideration


----------



## FredA

mhamel said:


> The Wyrd absolutely does have a linear power supply, with the AC transformer located in the wall wart and conversion/filtering/regulation inside of the Wyrd.






You are right. It is still a linear supply, even though the ac transformer is located in a wallwart unit. From Schiit:

USB Ports: 1 in (Type B) and 1 out (Type A)
USB Mode: USB 2.0 (480Mbps), backwards-compatible to USB 1.1
USB Packet Repeater: Controlled via 20ppm crystal oscillator
USB Power Current Capability: Over 500mA (full USB 2.0 spec)
Power Supply Type: linear, with precision low-noise (2.5uV) voltage regulators
AC Power: 9VA 6VAC wall-wart
Power Consumption: 6W maximum, <1W typical (depends on power draw of USB device)
Size: 5 x 3.5 x 1.25”
Weight: 1 lb

The wyrd does not have the current capacity of the teradak but is a more silent supply. But it is also a reclocker and require an addtional usb cable. The teradak does not. So as you see, there are pros and cons.

When i get my f-1, i will first power it with the wyrd or intona and see. Should try it next month or so.

I will use the i2s ouput on the f-1 with just a 2 inch piece of rj45 with male plug, should sound awesome. With that sort of length, you don't need hdmi i2s.


----------



## Gordian

ciphercomplete said:


> Yep, works great


 
  
  
 Excellent !
  
 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> Wyrd runs off AC so don't buy a linear power supply for it (expecting to use it with a future regen or recovery).


 
 Good info
  


kegger said:


> (just for info, no one specific)
> In the Wyrd description is says,
> 
> "Power Supply Type: linear, with precision low-noise (2.5uV) voltage regulators"
> ...


 
 That I didn't know - nice!
  


mhamel said:


> The Wyrd absolutely does have a linear power supply, with the AC transformer located in the wall wart and conversion/filtering/regulation inside of the Wyrd.


 
 I'll have to try one - especially after last night's experimentation.  See my follow-up post.


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Thanks for following on the power supply requirements for the Startech...
> I think PS Audio DAC's include* i2S inputs*... maybe a better clock and outputs to USB/SPDIF/*i2S* ??
> Got that right!


 
 Well imagine it should be out in late summer - if the June Beat testing goes well.
  


rw35 said:


> Reply back from the Singxer SU-1 USB' guys...
> 
> 
> Q. "I really think you MUST also make a DC version so that 'we' can use our own fancy linear power supplies, if you do, count me in, I will want one. There is already talk of people preferring to go with F-1 due to being able to control how it's powered. Please consider doing this, it would be easy for you to do."
> ...


 
 Great news! 
  


abartels said:


> This indeed looks promising, if they could provide an extra DC input for XO's on clean side, to power them externally, it even would be better
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That would be a great design step ahead


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> You are right. It is still a linear supply, even though the ac transformer is located in a wallwart unit. From Schiit:
> 
> USB Ports: 1 in (Type B) and 1 out (Type A)
> USB Mode: USB 2.0 (480Mbps), backwards-compatible to USB 1.1
> ...


 

 Give those Schiit guys credit!  This could be the great low cost LPS solution.  Wonder what the draw of the F-1 is?  @Superdad posted the PUC2 Lite draws more then the USB limit of 500mA - more like 700mA.  One reason they made the Regen capable up to 1A.
  


> *Gimme some technical details on what Wyrd does, please?*
> Wyrd does two things: it replaces the noisy USB power from your computer with a low-noise linear power supply (no switchers here!) with precision regulators rated at 2.5uV RMS noise. (Or, as Mike Moffat says, “on the 8th day, God called National Semiconductor and told them how to make the best regulator in the world, the LM723."). This is literally 200,000x better than some of the USB ports we’ve measured, which have up to 500mV of high-frequency noise. It also uses a tightly spec’d crystal oscillator on its own filtered power supply for the USB repeater chip, for best possible stability.


----------



## rb2013

OK did some experimenting last night - trying different combinations - here is the result (and it was good, very good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 First I took the iPur2 out from the head of the LEX (GB LAN USB sender unit) and replaced with the Regen/TeraDk X1 LPS (with upgraded Nichicon HW caps)/Cerious Graphene power cord.  Well this was good - but about the same as with just the iPur2 fed by the PPA V2/iPower 5VDC.  I could not use the hard USB adapter - not enough room next to the Ethernet cable.  So I had to use the 6inch USB cable - definitely not optimal.
  
 Next replaced the Regen 6inch USB cable with the iPur2 - better!  But very minor improvement.
  
 Next using just the iPur2 - but replacing the 5VDC iPower on the PPA V2 PCIe Card with the TeraDak LPS/Cerious Graphene power cord.  NICE!  A very noticeable improvement.
  
 Next tried plugging both the 24V SMPS power supply for the REX end of the GB LAN USB and the TeraDak LPS/Cerious - NOT into the Art Audio PB4X4Pro AC filter the PC is plugged into - but the separate one running from a separate wall socket (Teslaplex) and the Audience aR1P line balancer/Conditioner.  This is the separate PB4X4Pro AC filter isolator that the F-1 is plugged into.  Wow!  It was a bit tough getting the cords to reach this unit - and why I did not try it to begin with.
  
 But the results were startlingly great!
  
 The biggest change - the 5ft tall Maggies - absolutely disappear sound wise.  The music is just a living presence in the room.  As if the term sound stage no longer applies.  It's a total immersion experience.  The sound appears like an electro-magnetic field everywhere.  Especially the mid-bass and bass.  Not that it's diffuse - the opposite the players are focus holograms in front  - it's just some notes just trail off into a wave that radiate our filling the room.  Some background vocals and things appear in the far back corners - I turn my head thinking it's my wife talking to me. You how when listening to music if a real person speaks you immediately can tell the difference - no longer here.
  
 Like apparitions these things appear - sounding embodied - realism at it's finest.  Just a crazy effect.
  
 The projections to the side and deep behind have no correlation to the actual rooms dimensions any  longer.  It's not like it's super imposed as before - any link is now severed.  Close your eyes and the venue has changed in the most alarming fashion. 
  
 Dynamics as well - just amazing speed and control.  The 'jump' heart pounding.
  
 Just great stuff!!


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> OK did some experimenting last night - trying different combinations - here is the result (and it was good, very good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very nicely put...
  
 I'll have the both the F-1 and USB>LAN gizmo soon so can I do a comparison against what I have now when it arrives... it's going to have to sound pretty amazing to improve much on how it sounds now... isn't it nice to finally be able to say that!
  
 I get the feeling that you feel (as I do) that you are _approaching_ what can reasonably be expected as 'the pinnacle of playback'... and as always it's the sum of matched parts and the quality of the operating environment that defines the outcome, a poorly matched and non-optimized pile of mega bucks components will likely fail to impress and make poor recording unlistenable.


----------



## Albrecht

Looks like my F-1 just won't ship from freechinashopping.com The official seller is called TaoBab,  but i bet that it's the Shinzin that RB2013 has been warning us about.
  
 Looks like the I2s connector is not installed, - and it's taking forever.
  
 Dealing with them has been real PITA. This thing has been WEEKS in process. If you decide that you want one of these, be prepared to wait....


----------



## rw35

albrecht said:


> Looks like my F-1 just won't ship from freechinashopping.com The official seller is called TaoBab,  but i bet that it's the Shinzin that RB2013 has been warning us about.
> 
> Looks like the I2s connector is not installed, - and it's taking forever.
> 
> Dealing with them has been real PITA. This thing has been WEEKS in process. If you decide that you want one of these, be prepared to wait....


 
  
 Bought mine from here (despatched same day with tracking number): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111961717820?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Very nicely put...
> 
> I'll have the both the F-1 and USB>LAN gizmo soon so can I do a comparison against what I have now when it arrives... it's going to have to sound pretty amazing to improve much on how it sounds now... isn't it nice to finally be able to say that!
> 
> I get the feeling that you feel (as I do) that you are _approaching_ what can reasonably be expected as 'the pinnacle of playback'... and as always it's the sum of matched parts and the quality of the operating environment that defines the outcome, a poorly matched and non-optimized pile of mega bucks components will likely fail to impress and make poor recording unlistenable.


 

 Yes!  Well put - 'The Pinnacle of Playback' - but after my decade long experience with near sota analog - maybe...'The Pinnacle of Audio Playback'. 
  
 I keep getting significant improvements. Just by adjusting the digital chain - feeding the DAC.  Just amazes me how far this has progressed - wondering how much further?  I guess in analog land like going from a Shure V15 to Benz Ruby then to the Dynavector XV-1S.  Just leaps ahead in each step...
  
 I have to say the Magnepan 1.6qr speakers are really an extraordinary reproduction device.  Finicky as all heck - but so transparent and realistic when well fed.
  
 I just bought this for them - it'll be the first change in years to that part of my system (really just a small tweek).

 The Velodyne Sub in the picture is gone now - no need for it at all - one huge benefit of the digital chain improvements.
  
 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tweaks-magnepan-1-6-1-7-1-7i-fuse-bypass-kit-no-soldering-better-imaging-and-detail-2016-05-06-accessories-30080-smyrna-ga--2/order
  
 I'm running SR Quantum fuses in there now - this solid silver replacement should be interesting.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Looks like my F-1 just won't ship from freechinashopping.com The official seller is called TaoBab,  but i bet that it's the Shinzin that RB2013 has been warning us about.
> 
> Looks like the I2s connector is not installed, - and it's taking forever.
> 
> Dealing with them has been real PITA. This thing has been WEEKS in process. If you decide that you want one of these, be prepared to wait....


 

 I bet they are overloaded with orders.  Freeshoppingchina.com is just an english speaking buying service.  They have to receive it first then send it to you.  When I ordered it was still quicker then the 5 weeks it took Shenzen to send from Ebay.
  
 I bet there are a few DAC makers ordering large quanities to install directly into their DACs.  If I made them - I would


----------



## rb2013

Analog fun - this was my sota cart:
  

  
  
DYNAVECTOR - DRT XV-1S MC PHONO CARTRIDGE 
*Price: $5,650.00 *
  
The Cartridge We Recommend for Those Who Demand the Very Best​ The Reference MC Cartridge on Display in Our Chicago Showroom ​ *The *_*Absolute Sound*_ Golden Ear Winner, the improved *Dynavector* *XV-1S *is designed to passionately take your analog listening to a new heights. With an eight magnet, dual-stereo coil design and ebony wood stabilizer, the *DRT XV-1S *offers an supremely musical presentation. This is the ultimate expression of Dynavector's analog sound: extremely detailed, unbelievable tonality, rich through the mid-band, throws a HUGE soundstage, tremendous dynamics, the deepest bottom-end, and we could go on and on. *Absolutely one of the very best phono cartridges ever built.*
*"This is a five-star moving-coil design. I have little else to say about it, since it is the best of these babies I have ever encountered – ever. I hear no serious flaws. I hate to say this, but, in the here and now and until I hear something better, I can hear no flaws at all."*


----------



## Gordian

no USB output, that's useless !


----------



## Albrecht

Yes,
  
 Thanks, that makes good sense.
  
 Still a bit frustrating to wait, with an expectation level of a week turning into a month.
  
 Oh well, plenty to play with, with the new microRendu


----------



## MINORISUKE

rw35 said:


> Bought mine from here (despatched same day with tracking number): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111961717820?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
 This is the eBay shop of Shenzhen Audio.
 Their direct on-line store offers 30-day money back gurantee for all the listed items.
 What rb2013 says cannot happen.  As I reminded him in the previous U12 thread, he and I were the only ones who had ordered MX-U8 BEFORE it was listed on its store page.  Shenzhen Audio used to function as an "export service trading company" with a reasonable amount of handling charge for items sold in China but not yet listed on their store.  For those items, they did not offer any warranty, even if the product was dead on arrival, as it was a special request by the customer.  The customers must  accept this condition, and I accepted it.  My MX-U8 was perfect fortunately, rb2013's unfortunately not.  They simply forwarded the items purchased at Taobao to the customers upon customer's request.  Taobao's 7-day warranty usually expires before the customer outside China receives the product.  Some got Tanly's DDC using this service, but after a certain point, Shenzhen Audio seemed to have decided, not to offer such kind of service.
 Melodious offers one year warranty.  If the product had been sent directly to Melodious, it could have been repaired.
 Currently, it seems Shenzhen Audio is the only store that handles Singxer products.  Of course, the priority of Singxer's direct sales through Taobao is much lower than that through an authorised dealer.  Therefore, it is natural that orders via Taobao purchase support companies like freeshoppingchina have much lower priority.


----------



## panhead

rw35 said:


> http://www.swagmanlab.com/
> 
> (I only have his SE editions... he'll make anything you want)


 
 Thanks for this link.   Supplies seem most reasonable!


----------



## Albrecht

Glad that yours was easy,
  
 RB had a real issue, so I avoided them too......


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 Thanks for all of the clarifications, and explanations of how these two companies work.
  
 The boards themselves are reputed to sound great, hopefully I'll get a working one, and hopefully it'll last awhile.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## RickyV

Hi rb2013 & all others,

I have been following this thread from the beginning with a lot of reading pleasure. Very interesting stuf. I was in the process of designing a dedicated audio computer when i read the first posts from rd20113 about the F1. So the F1 was the first i ordered from Hong kong for the audiopc. Three r-core transformers and 6 linear powersupply pcb kits are still unther way. Supper Ultra Low Noise linear power supply LPS PSU KIT 5V 9V 12V 15V 18V 24V from eBay. 
So looking closely at my f1, botten Side, i saw two contacts with +5v and gnd next to it, in line with the i2s header. When the f1 was powered up i measured the voltage on them and it was 4.86v. Next i looked up what big black block over the galvanic separation is, it is dc to dc converter galvanic separating the power. 
What if you desolder the "big" black block and feed the second half with new ultra clean ps. I think that will be an intresting experiment,


----------



## rb2013

gordian said:


> no USB output, that's useless !


 

 Lol!  no  - but no 'packet noise' as well


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> This is the eBay shop of Shenzhen Audio.
> Their direct on-line store offers 30-day money back gurantee for all the listed items.
> What rb2013 says cannot happen.  As I reminded him in the previous U12 thread, he and I were the only ones who had ordered MX-U8 BEFORE it was listed on its store page.  Shenzhen Audio used to function as an "export service trading company" with a reasonable amount of handling charge for items sold in China but not yet listed on their store.  For those items, they did not offer any warranty, even if the product was dead on arrival, as it was a special request by the customer.  The customers must  accept this condition, and I accepted it.  My MX-U8 was perfect fortunately, rb2013's unfortunately not.  They simply forwarded the items purchased at Taobao to the customers upon customer's request.  Taobao's 7-day warranty usually expires before the customer outside China receives the product.  Some got Tanly's DDC using this service, but after a certain point, Shenzhen Audio seemed to have decided, not to offer such kind of service.
> Melodious offers one year warranty.  If the product had been sent directly to Melodious, it could have been repaired.
> Currently, it seems Shenzhen Audio is the only store that handles Singxer products.  Of course, the priority of Singxer's direct sales through Taobao is much lower than that through an authorised dealer.  Therefore, it is natural that orders via Taobao purchase support companies like freeshoppingchina have much lower priority.


 

 Yes but I then bought again from him on Ebay:  Took 5 weeks to get to me - when he told me he would send DHL 2 day.
  
 At least with Ebay you have the 'Buyers Guarantee'.
  
 I had three MX-U8's all had issues - the worst QC I have ever seen.  I was able to fix one - that had a wire shorting the AC main!  This is the one Shnzen sent to me.  Obviously Shenzen does not plug them to see if they work before sending 6000 miles - Ugg! It was the easiest to fix.

  
 BTW it cost me almost $30 to send the defective Pro3a back to Hong Kong (DIYinHK).  This 'just return it to China' gets expensive.
  
 I bought two F-1's, two X-1's and a QS-1 all from Freeshoppingchina.com and i had excellent service - no more then two weeks from the time the order was placed until I received it.


----------



## rb2013

rickyv said:


> Hi rb2013 & all others,
> 
> I have been following this thread from the beginning with a lot of reading pleasure. Very interesting stuf. I was in the process of designing a dedicated audio computer when i read the first posts from rd20113 about the F1. So the F1 was the first i ordered from Hong kong for the audiopc. Three r-core transformers and 6 linear powersupply pcb kits are still unther way. Supper Ultra Low Noise linear power supply LPS PSU KIT 5V 9V 12V 15V 18V 24V from eBay.
> So looking closely at my f1, botten Side, i saw two contacts with +5v and gnd next to it, in line with the i2s header. When the f1 was powered up i measured the voltage on them and it was 4.86v. Next i looked up what big black block over the galvanic separation is, it is dc to dc converter galvanic separating the power.
> What if you desolder the "big" black block and feed the second half with new ultra clean ps. I think that will be an intresting experiment,


 

 Yes @abartels had suggested running this and also supplying the clocks separately (he loves lots of R-cores - see his DIY DAC!).  Those are 3.3V I believe.
  
 Someone also suggested replacing that DCtoDC converter with a Belleson.
  
 Also an interesting prospect.  Although I do solder - I'm really a more of a plug and play guy.  So it's up to you guys. 
  
 Honestly the linear power I'm feeding the F-1 right now is so ultra pure (below 1uv of noise) with muli-levels of galvanic isolation - not sure if any of those would be a sonic improvement.


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> Thanks for this link.   Supplies seem most reasonable!


 

 His prices are great!  I may give a 9V a try.


----------



## KEGGER

Is there a consensus on the length of usb cable suggested?
  
 I mean is something to short or to long for sure?


----------



## Currawong

rb2013 said:


> I was surprised to see the SPARTAN 6 processor - that an awful lot of FPGA horsepower.


 
  
 For ethernet transmission and to act as a USB host, you basically need a computer. The Spartan 6 is basically a CPU in which code can be embedded, so are basically necessary for one end to act as a USB host, as the manufacturer will have had to code up a basic OS to run the unit.   Since it only has to run Ethernet and USB, it probably dumps less noise into the USB bus than a computer does. There's no way to be sure though without measuring the output.


----------



## rb2013

currawong said:


> For ethernet transmission and to act as a USB host, you basically need a computer. The Spartan 6 is basically a CPU in which code can be embedded, so are basically necessary for one end to act as a USB host, as the manufacturer will have had to code up a basic OS to run the unit.   Since it only has to run Ethernet and USB, it probably dumps less noise into the USB bus than a computer does. There's no way to be sure though without measuring the output.


 

 Thanks!


----------



## wushuliu

Received the F1 today. Since I've been using an IDAC2 I was forced to buy another dac with coax to try out the F1. I used this as an opportunity to try out several from Amazon: the Micromega MyDac and the Peachtree DaciTx. Sorry, I have a very limited budget so no mega buck dacs to brag about. I also have a micro idsd arriving tomorrow since that has coax in - I love my IDAC2 and I will likely have micro replace it with the F1.
  
 So I've been listening to the F1 with the MyDac and Dacit tonight and...drumroll....... not really impressed.
  
 Just kidding! The F-1 is awesome! Granted I have been using strictly usb-based dacs for the past 4 years so I have never tried the Breezes or PUCs, etc etc. The last spdif converters I used were tenor-based. They did not sound this good. The F-1 is an absolute bargain for what it does. With only a few hours on it, music is clean and clear. No treble energy or edginess. The sonic presentation vs. usb w/ IP2 is no contest. The F-1 takes the dacs to another level and without changing the character of the dacs. The MyDac in particular has 3-D qualities and a midrange forward nature that shines with the F-1. With just the usb it was okay, not nearly as good as the IDAC2. Same with the DacIT.
  
 These comparisons were done with just a diy coaxial cable (Audioquest all silver wire). I added the IP2 with the F-1 for a few minutes but for some reason that did not sound that great. Could be the IP2 needs to break in again since it's been unused for a while or synergy issues. I'll try again later.
  
 With a limited budget for me any over $100 really has to perform to be worthwhile. USB regen stuff like the IP2 I've found to make small differences but not night and day. The F-1 is night and day. I will definitely spread the word. I admit I was *real* skeptical about rb's, er, enthusiasm but what can I say. This is a *must have* component. Thanks rb!
  
 w


----------



## JoesDad

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster!

I just got a wyrd/f1 combo, using a raspberry pi with volumio os (which sounds great!). Right off the bat getting incredible sound! cool bonus is this setup requires no usb cables - two usb adapters with the f1 and rpi stuck right in the back of the wyrd.

My question is, I kind of prefer optical input with my dac (old tweaked eac dsp-7000mkIII). How hard would it be to swap out the coax out for an optical out? As for my skill level, i own a solderin iron, but i am pretty clumsy with it.

Thanks,
Eric


----------



## rw35

kegger said:


> Is there a consensus on the length of usb cable suggested?
> 
> I mean is something to short or to long for sure?


 

 IME, the shorter the better, you could easily make your own or get some of the short 'Curious Cables'.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> rickyv said:
> 
> 
> > Hi rb2013 & all others,
> ...


 
  
 Please post some close-ups from the "Big Black Block" to identify it, then I can tell you if it's possible what you were suggesting!
  
 If you look closer at the pcb, you should see several regulators on board. What you can do, if you want the best of the best, which means INFINITE PSSR to other stages, is power EVERY stage, which is behind a regulator, seperately.
 But, that is a very complex and comprehensive solution. As rb2013 mentioned, this is the way I powered my DAC, EVERY stage with separate psu, fed by separate R-Core, fed by separate EMI/RFI filter.
 Since R-Cores (the ones with Electrostatic AND copper shield) have very low emissions, it's not a problem at all to have more of them in the same enclosure. Just be sure to isolate the electronics pcb's with EMI/RFI suppression/absorbing materials


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> I keep getting significant improvements. Just by adjusting the digital chain - feeding the DAC.  Just amazes me how far this has progressed - wondering how much further?  I guess in analog land like going from a Shure V15 to Benz Ruby then to the Dynavector XV-1S.  Just leaps ahead in each step...
> 
> I have to say the Magnepan 1.6qr speakers are really an extraordinary reproduction device.  Finicky as all heck - but so transparent and realistic when well fed.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Magnepan's are great sounding speakers, at least if the foils are in good condition and indeed, if fed with a very good amp. Those 1.6qr's are available for less than $1000 a pair, even in excellent condition
 which makes them a real bargain!
 I heard lots of them in the past, compared with Martin Logan's, Final's (Dutch design) and a few others To be honest, I like planar's and electrostatics a lot, but very often they produce a soundstage
 which isn't at the right proportions. A guitar, for example, shouldn't be pictured as big as a contrabas (measurement wise)...
  
 What kind of amp do you use? Is it the silver one on the floor?
  
 I once demonstrated my Class-A mosfet (which I still own and use) at Dutch Final distributor. He got very excited when my amp got those foils swinging until they really created sparks when foils hitting the stators.....
 He never heard them playing that loud and didn't experienced this kind of behavior before, he hadn't expect this.
 I knew this was going to happen  because amp is 100% stable till 0.5 - ZERO DOT FIVE Ohms.... It can deliver lots of amps, if needed. Electrostatics and Planars do like those kind of amps a lot.
  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Final 1.2
  
 Those Finals look small, but they aren't, they are 2.0 meters high
  
 Nowadays I use Dynamic speakers, with planar tweeter. Still want to try planar mids too, maybe a project for coming winter....
  
  
  
 EDIT: NOT going to start this project, but this is what I posted an hour ago:
 "ON topic:
  
 I got an offer I couldn't refuse, from a Head-Fi member. He is willing to provide me with F1, and modding / enclosure materials, to test with the device and compare it with RPI3/DAC+Pro.
 This project will include a very nice Black anodised Alumin(i)um enclosure, fed with seperate psu's/r-cores/emi-rfi filters. I will probably use Twisted Pair's Digital Teleporter Transceiver
 for I2S connection over standard CAT5+ at a max of 100ft. This way I can test it with my own DAC and compare it to RPI3/DAC+Pro
  
 http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/teleporter.aspx "


----------



## rw35

Startech 4 Port USB>LAN arrived this morning.
  
 I swapped out the Intona Industrial for the Startech (left everything else as is) to make a proper 1 box change comparison. It has only taken 1 track for me to conclude that the Intona is considerably better *in my system* = it's staying! 
  
 This might be because I don't have a 24v LPS to power the receiving end of the Startech, but to be fair the Intona is much more 3D and musical in my system. If Intona are using inferior clocks, the way they have implemented them is what makes that box sound so bloody good.
  
 I'm sending the Startech back today.
  
 I await the F-1 board, which I suspect will sound great and it will be nice to be able to compare the USB and Coax inputs on my VEGA DAC.
  
*Source:*
*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS) > Curious short USB link > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed) > *Auralic VEGA (balanced)

*Control:*
*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced) 

*Playback:*
2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz high pass filtered from subs)

*Misc:*
*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator
 LPS: 2 x Swagman Lab Audiophile SE (W4S & FMC) & 1 x SMSL P1 (Intona power injection)
 Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM
 Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)
 Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains
  
 Some snaps below (my apologies for the dust LOL):


----------



## sbgk

w4s recovery wouldn't be so close to a mains cable in my setup


----------



## rw35

sbgk said:


> w4s recovery wouldn't be so close to a mains cable in my setup


 

 I usually pull it away with an elastic band, forgot to put it back on, thanks.


----------



## abartels

rw35 said:


> kegger said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a consensus on the length of usb cable suggested?
> ...


 
 some say at least 1.5 meter, USB spec says not beyond 5 meter


----------



## abartels

rw35 said:


> Love those Oyaide's


----------



## wushuliu

Im a believer in eliminating cables whenever possible and using adapters intead. Not as sexy but it sounds better to me. Especially usb.


----------



## motberg

rw35 said:


> I usually pull it away with an elastic band, forgot to put it back on, thanks.


 
  
 beautiful room !
 I partially wrapped my Intona in a mu-metal sheet, not sure if it helped anything, it is setting aside my DAC....


----------



## rw35

motberg said:


> beautiful room !
> I partially wrapped my Intona in a mu-metal sheet, not sure if it helped anything, it is setting aside my DAC....


 

 I've got some adhesive copper RF screening tape and was thinking of covering the Intona, not sure if it will do anything.


----------



## onlythat

"Startech 4 Port USB>LAN arrived this morning.

I swapped out the Intona Industrial for the Startech (left everything else as is) to make a proper 1 box change comparison. It has only taken 1 track for me to conclude that the Intona is considerably better in my system = it's staying!"

One track?! Now that's some REALLY narrow musical taste 

Yah - you don't hafta go all 6moons on it, but even I would say in this case a longer head to head might be warranted


----------



## rw35

Hi, which cables did you think were Oyaide's?
  
 The mains cables are DIY off of eBay, which are about to be replaced with 'Mark Grant DSP 2.5 Black'... the signal cables are DIY silver balanced made. The only non DIY branded cable I have is the short Curious USB.


----------



## rw35

onlythat said:


> "Startech 4 Port USB>LAN arrived this morning.
> 
> I swapped out the Intona Industrial for the Startech (left everything else as is) to make a proper 1 box change comparison. It has only taken 1 track for me to conclude that the Intona is considerably better in my system = it's staying!"
> 
> ...


 

 No, it was too obvious to waste any more time comparing. I suspect that the Startech SMPS probably ruined the highly optimised environment and it suits me fine to leave everything as was.
  
 Give that Startech an LPS and it may well perform as well as the Intona but I'm not concerned about loosing out now I've done the comparison.


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> Is there a consensus on the length of usb cable suggested?
> 
> I mean is something to short or to long for sure?


 
 I think - yes the shorter the better.  For example with the totl LH Labs 10g many reported the 0.8M sounded better then the 1M
  


rw35 said:


> IME, the shorter the better, you could easily make your own or get some of the short 'Curious Cables'.


 
 I like the split USB cables - so only the data leg need bi used - this keep power completely away from the data lines.  But yes Curious has some nice cables.  I tried a 1M USB vs the 2G  - way preferred the 2G (and was cheaper).  That said for the link between the Recovery and the F-1 the short 200mm Curious was great


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Received the F1 today. Since I've been using an IDAC2 I was forced to buy another dac with coax to try out the F1. I used this as an opportunity to try out several from Amazon: the Micromega MyDac and the Peachtree DaciTx. Sorry, I have a very limited budget so no mega buck dacs to brag about. I also have a micro idsd arriving tomorrow since that has coax in - I love my IDAC2 and I will likely have micro replace it with the F1.
> 
> So I've been listening to the F1 with the MyDac and Dacit tonight and...drumroll....... not really impressed.
> 
> ...


 

 I completely understand your skeptism - but you smartly suspended it and tried the F-1 - great hear you like it!  I agree just an amazing audio bargain!
  
 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

joesdad said:


> Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster!
> 
> I just got a wyrd/f1 combo, using a raspberry pi with volumio os (which sounds great!). Right off the bat getting incredible sound! cool bonus is this setup requires no usb cables - two usb adapters with the f1 and rpi stuck right in the back of the wyrd.
> 
> ...


 
 You check DIYinHK I think they have a 192k SPDIF optical board - very inexpensive.  But you still have electro-optical couplers that add jitter.
  


abartels said:


> Please post some close-ups from the "Big Black Block" to identify it, then I can tell you if it's possible what you were suggesting!
> 
> If you look closer at the pcb, you should see several regulators on board. What you can do, if you want the best of the best, which means INFINITE PSSR to other stages, is power EVERY stage, which is behind a regulator, seperately.
> But, that is a very complex and comprehensive solution. As rb2013 mentioned, this is the way I powered my DAC, EVERY stage with separate psu, fed by separate R-Core, fed by separate EMI/RFI filter.
> Since R-Cores (the ones with Electrostatic AND copper shield) have very low emissions, it's not a problem at all to have more of them in the same enclosure. Just be sure to isolate the electronics pcb's with EMI/RFI suppression/absorbing materials


 
 Here Alex :


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> The Magnepan's are great sounding speakers, at least if the foils are in good condition and indeed, if fed with a very good amp. Those 1.6qr's are available for less than $1000 a pair, even in excellent condition
> which makes them a real bargain!
> I heard lots of them in the past, compared with Martin Logan's, Final's (Dutch design) and a few others To be honest, I like planar's and electrostatics a lot, but very often they produce a soundstage
> which isn't at the right proportions. A guitar, for example, shouldn't be pictured as big as a contrabas (measurement wise)...
> ...


 
 Well the issue with the Maggies - they have to be placed in the right sized and shaped room.  Then extreme care must be used in placement - I found for my room (ideal size for the 1.6qr) 3ft from back wall, 3ft from side wall.
  
 The cables are critical!  I went through 7 different ones - including Nordost Valhalla, Synergistic Apex Tesla Active - these Tellurium Q Ultra Blacks were heads above.  The amp is another amazing audio find:   The Bada SE 3.3 - heavily modded with Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil Caps (these alone were close to $1000), ELNA Similic II 'lyctics, etc.  The amp is a Class A hybrid design - runs Class A for the first 30Watts then biases over to A/B to 160W.  Uses two massive toroidal transformers for the Toshisba outputs - one for each channel - then a separate R-core for the 6922 tube pre-section (this amp is a beast to lift!).  Another big improvement -my 'Holy Grail' very rare 1975 Reflektor Single Wire Getter Post Silver Shield 6N23P - the finest audio tube I have ever owned!.

  
  
 I have two of these amps - one in my office one in my main room.  They are the most extraordinary amps I have ever heard.  I went through a SS phase owning a half dozen of the best Krell, PASS, Mark Levinison, etc...  That didn't cut it for me, then went all tube - including a few 300B and about a dozen KT-88 and 6550 based.  After an amazing write up by Harry Pearson in Absolute Sound - bought the 200W a channel 8 tubes ASL Hurricane Mono Blocks.  I had three version of this amp - the last being a heavily modded (By Response Audio) with all V-CAP Teflon caps (The mods cost $10,000 - back then a V-CAP was $300 each).  I rolled through $5000 in tubes and settled for GEC KT-88s and Tungsol Round plate VT231's. This fed a $30,000 pair of Talon Firebird Diamonds.  Pre-amp the $16,000 Conrad Johnson ACT2.  I used two Velodyne DD-12's for subs - that's another $6000.  Feeding this was the APL NWOjr DAC and a $30K analog rig.  Wiring was all Nordost Valhalla then SR Apex Tesla (another $12,000).


  
  

  
 Let me say this $1000 Bada - before the Mundorf recapping equaled the V-CAP Hurricanes and CJ ACT2!  So I bought two.  They don't make this version anymore - just a 4 12au7 one.

  
  
 The sound then could lift the roof - the Vel's alone had 3,000 Watts combined power.  The Firebirds 11in Focal Woofers in 300lb 6in thick laminate cabinets.  The Aluminum spikes on the bottom along weighted 10lbs each.
  
 But I have to say the life like and life sized imaging and as I described total immersion presentation today beats that $100,000 system!  For a tiny fraction of the price!  Just the cost of the Dynavector (and I had a Benz Ebony LP cart as well) - I could buy my whole system now.  To my ears the guitars are the absolute perfect size and height and tone - I know as I'm a guitar player.
  
 I post this just so folks know my reference point - I have been going at this audio thing with gusto for 25yrs.  I have over 200 transactions on audiogon alone (rb99).
 So I think I have a pretty good handle on what great audio should sound like.  Right now - it's the best I ever had!  Seriously - this little F-1 - is just plain magic.   I no longer judge audio equipment by the sticker price - but by their sonic abilities.
  
 We live in extraordinary audio times!
 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> No, it was too obvious to waste any more time comparing. I suspect that the Startech SMPS probably ruined the highly optimised environment and it suits me fine to leave everything as was.
> 
> Give that Startech an LPS and it may well perform as well as the Intona but I'm not concerned about loosing out now I've done the comparison.


 

 Great the Intona works for you - My Startech is going no where!
  
 Update the Mutec will be here in two weeks!
  
 Cheers


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Great the Intona works for you - My Startech is going no where!
> 
> Update the Mutec will be here in two weeks!
> 
> Cheers


 

 Cool, as long as all the good people here are in love with their systems that's all that matters, different configs still lead to audio nirvana.
  
 I'm looking forward to getting the F-1... just brought a solid case for it, it's going to be* tight* but I'm hoping it might just go in, maybe a bit of trimming required : http://www.tme.eu/en/details/g112-ip67/multipurpose-enclosures/gainta/. I might have to go the next size up if it won't go in..


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> I no longer judge audio equipment by the sticker price - but by their sonic abilities.
> 
> We live in extraordinary audio times!


 
  
 Same here bud... I stopped listening to sales people years ago, it's all about knowledge sharing.
  
 Remember the days of single brand systems? - sounds crazy to me now, used to have all naim feeding my ATCs.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> joesdad said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster!
> ...


----------



## onlythat

Incidentally-- is this the same thing for cheaper?  Or is this not the 1GB version?  I'm guessing it isn't the 'correct' version cause it's 330.00, yah?
  
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1016884-REG/startech_usb2004ext2_4_port_usb_2_0_extender.html


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Cool, as long as all the good people here are in love with their systems that's all that matters, different configs still lead to audio nirvana.
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting the F-1... just brought a solid case for it, it's going to be* tight* but I'm hoping it might just go in, maybe a bit of trimming required : http://www.tme.eu/en/details/g112-ip67/multipurpose-enclosures/gainta/. I might have to go the next size up if it won't go in..


 
 Yes!  I'm still curious as to the upcoming Regen, JCAT USB galvanic isolators and of course the PS Audio LANRover....good times, good times!
  


rw35 said:


> Same here bud... I stopped listening to sales people years ago, it's all about knowledge sharing.
> 
> Remember the days of single brand systems? - sounds crazy to me now, used to have all naim feeding my ATCs.


 
 I had an all Kenwood back in 1979!  Still love their styling.  No I'm all about bang for the audio buck for sure.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Incidentally-- is this the same thing for cheaper?  Or is this not the 1GB version?  I'm guessing it isn't the 'correct' version cause it's 330.00, yah?
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1016884-REG/startech_usb2004ext2_4_port_usb_2_0_extender.html


 

 NO that's not it! ICRON/Startech make a non-LAN 4 port USB extender.  It must be the 1GB LAN USB Extender!  It's tricky as they look similar
  
 This: Startech USB2G4LEXT2
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

  
 NOT this: Startech USB2004EXT2
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Port-Extender-over-Cat5/dp/B004EFZC5A/ref=sr_1_3?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1462893523&sr=1-3&keywords=startech+usb+4+port+extender


----------



## panhead

onlythat said:


> Incidentally-- is this the same thing for cheaper?  Or is this not the 1GB version?  I'm guessing it isn't the 'correct' version cause it's 330.00, yah?
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1016884-REG/startech_usb2004ext2_4_port_usb_2_0_extender.html


 
 If you scroll down the page its 480mb.     Curious if the 1GB version sounds that much different.


----------



## rb2013

In the ICRON model numbers - it a little clearer as they have 'LAN' in the model number
  
 This is what you want: The USB 2.0 Ranger 2304-LAN​ http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-ranger-2304-lan/

  
  
 NOT this! The USB 2.0 Ranger​®​2304​ http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/cat5/usb-2-0-ranger-2304/


----------



## panhead

rb2013 said:


> Well the issue with the Maggies - they have to be placed in the right sized and shaped room.  Then extreme care must be used in placement - I found for my room (ideal size for the 1.6qr) 3ft from back wall, 3ft from side wall.
> 
> The cables are critical!  I went through 7 different ones - including Nordost Valhalla, Synergistic Apex Tesla Active - these Tellurium Q Ultra Blacks were heads above.  The amp is another amazing audio find:   The Bada SE 3.3 - heavily modded with Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil Caps (these alone were close to $1000), ELNA Similic II 'lyctics, etc.  The amp is a Class A hybrid design - runs Class A for the first 30Watts then biases over to A/B to 160W.  Uses two massive toroidal transformers for the Toshisba outputs - one for each channel - then a separate R-core for the 6922 tube pre-section (this amp is a beast to lift!).  Another big improvement -my 'Holy Grail' very rare 1975 Reflektor Single Wire Getter Post Silver Shield 6N23P - the finest audio tube I have ever owned!.
> 
> ...


 
 Awesome looking amps!   You are a lot more dedicated than I am.   I purchased the Classe Cam 200s based on a review to power the Maggie 3.5r and have not experimented in that area except pcs and vibration control.


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> If you scroll down the page its 480mb.     Curious if the 1GB version sounds that much different.


 

 Oh yes!  Completely different - I bet if you took the cover off a whole different board.

 To be 1GB LAN compatible must use USB to TCP/IP conversion.

 The non-LAN does not.
  
 I tried this one and it said 480mb and sounded like crap:
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-2-0-Over-Cat5-Extender-Extension-USB2004EXTV/dp/B00T9RTT2U?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> Awesome looking amps!   You are a lot more dedicated than I am.   I purchased the Classe Cam 200s based on a review to power the Maggie 3.5r and have not experimented in that area except pcs and vibration control.


 

 In my office I use these beauties with a modded BADA 3.3SE:
  
 http://www.reference3a.com/dulcet.html
  

  
 PS You must have a ballroom for a listening room.  Those big maggies need a lot of space to breathe.
  
 I laugh when I see people hate Maggies and have them next to the rear wall on the side of their flat screens.


----------



## onlythat

rb2013 said:


> "Oh yes!  Completely different - I bet if you took the cover off a whole different board.
> 
> To be 1GB LAN compatible must use USB to TCP/IP conversion."
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > "Oh yes!  Completely different - I bet if you took the cover off a whole different board.
> ...


 
 The Art Audio PB4X4 Pro - must have 'Pro' in the latter half of the description.  Some of these con artists on Ebay use Art Audio Pro PB4X4 as the description - that is a different animal - is does not have the AC line filtering and isolation.  The PB4X4 is $49 and the PB4X4 Pro is $85
  
 NOT this: *ART Pro Audio PB 4x4 Rackmount 8 Outlet Power Conditioner & Surge Protector*
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/ART-Pro-Audio-PB-4x4-Rackmount-8-Outlet-Power-Conditioner-Surge-Protector-/272232033314?hash=item3f624b2c22:g:tX4AAOSw2GlXKPgc
  
 But this: *ART Audio PB4x4 PRO - Power Distribution System*
 http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/ART-Audio-PB4x4-PRO-Power-Distribution-System-p/pb4x4pro.htm?gclid=CjwKEAjwjca5BRCAyaPGi6_h8m8SJADryPLh6dQccdMDIanBEOanIII3yNMLr90ishBSKqrVJx26tBoCANzw_wcB&Click=26201&utm_source=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=shoppingengine
  
 You can tell the correct one has the word PRO in white on the front, has one front outlet, and is marked APF on the front to the side and comes with a flexible light stalk:


 NOT THIS:

 I bought two of the wrong ones by accident - so don't make my mistake:
 http://artproaudio.com/power_solutions/product/pb4x4_pro/
  


> Presenting the 4x4 PRO SERIES Power Distribution Systems from ART. Built on the foundation of the popular 4x4s, the PRO SERIES are durably constructed, reliable power conditioners for use in many applications. Wherever power management system is required, the 4x4 PRO SERIES provide the surge protection you need to keep your rack safe from unwanted disruption.
> *All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF™ (Advanced Power Filtering) which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.*
> *By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.*
> Every PRO SERIES power conditioner is designed with a power capacity of 1800 Watts, surge/spike protection, APF with EMI & RFI filtering, front-mounted unswitched power outlet and an adjustable rear-mounted gooseneck light source for bright illumination behind the rack. The spacing and alignment of the rear outlets to accommodate various size power plugs and AC adapters.


----------



## rw35

Interesting post rb.
  
 I use the Furman DMC Pro in my studio : http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=PL-PRODMC
  
 It hadn't occurred to me that I could put some of the remaining dirty SMPS's in the lounge on one of those or similar.
  
 My policy is to put EMI chokes on _everything_ around the house except the analogue parts of my system (they _can_ be detrimental on those) - and have a dedicated distribution board/supply for the system.
  
 Got me thinking about that now.


----------



## abartels

rw35 said:


> Hi, which cables did you think were Oyaide's?
> 
> The mains cables are DIY off of eBay, which are about to be replaced with 'Mark Grant DSP 2.5 Black'... the signal cables are DIY silver balanced made. The only non DIY branded cable I have is the short Curious USB.


 
  
 I ment the powercord connectors,,,,, those are Chinese make Oyaide copies,,, had them too, not bad at all but finally bought Taiwanese iEGO solid silver ones (IEC320 inlet and connector).
 Years ago I planned to distribute those connectors for Europe, exclusively, but finally missed the boat because a German company got the exclusive rights for Europe.....
 Had ordered some samples, cost me a lot of money back then, and finally used them for my own powercords. I bought several versions, pure silver, pure red copper, pure red copper silvered,
 pure red copper guilded, the pure silver versions sounded best, but they are expensive..... IEC 320 inlet pure silver about $90 and the pure silver plug about $100 Copper and gold versions about $50
 There even are pre-production models, without labels, and a pre-production Schuko.
  
 Left from that project:
  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  
  
 Those good old times.......


----------



## Albrecht

What was that AirTight in your pic?
  
 Man, - I've always wanted to hear Airtight Amps cause of their rep, and also their incredible beauty.
  
 The only time i got to hear one was with those people from GTT audio dist, who insisted of only having vinyl, only playing the blues, and only matching them with QUAD speakers.....
  
 Sorry to be so opinionated, but I DESPISE the blues, and Quad speakers. Never heard either sound good, and the former makes me run from any room screaming.
  
 Your Bada amps sound like they would be amazing and I would love to hear them......


----------



## rw35

@abartels
  
 Ahh.. cool, makes sense now.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Interesting post rb.
> 
> I use the Furman DMC Pro in my studio : http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=PL-PRODMC
> 
> ...


 

 Yes I use two now - one for the DDC chain and the other for the DAC.  They are useful.  I then have a separate one for the PC.  So everything is isolated.
  
 The reason to keep the DAC and DDC separate is the issues John Swenson mentions about PHY AGC created 'Packet Noise' to to varying SI.  This can feed back through the AC power supply and cause noise issues with the DAC's femto clocks.  This may be why having the USB processing out of the DAC is best, keeping the DDC as a separate device on a separate power chain.
  
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital#5wBf3Vkfpl9AG0LC.97
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits#LQX6egzmLMjobH0J.97
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-3-how-bit-perfect-software-can-affect-sound#PVibmULpc6cdEqqx.97
  
 I added the bolding:


> So now the crux of the matter, how can what goes into the USB receiver affect any of this?  In several ways: packet jitter, edge jitter, PLLs. I’ll go over each of these.​ Packet jitter is the difference in the arrival time of packets to the receiver chip. USB packets are transmitted over the bus at either 1000 per second (full speed mode) or 8000 per second (high speed mode). *Every time one of those packets hits the receiver a lot of activity happens inside the receiver chip. This creates lots of noise inside the chip and on the ground plane. This causes a lot of jitter on the outputs from the chip. The spectrum of this noise and jitter has a VERY strong component at either 1KHz or 8KHz, both of which are directly in the audio range.* Any changes in the arrival time of the packets will change the spectrum of this packet noise. In the next installment I’ll cover what causes this packet jitter.​


 


> Next is PLLs. Every USB receiver chip has at least one if not more PLLs. These PLLs are affected by both the previous types of jitter and since almost all the circuitry inside the chip is clocked by these PLLs, the jitter on output signals and *ground plane noise is going to be significantly affected by the noise spectrum coming out of the PLLs.* This is filtered by the PLL loop filter, but there are still major components related to the input jitter.​ *So how do we keep all this noise from the USB receiver from getting to our sensitive DAC circuits? It’s called ground plane isolation. You have separate ground planes for the USB receiver and the rest of the DAC circuitry. This DOES prevent ground plane noise from crossing over. BUT if you cut the ground plane there is no way for the return current from the signals crossing the boundary (the I2S signals and clock etc) to get between the “ground domains”. The solution is digital isolators. *There are many different technologies to choose from, one most people are familiar with is opto-couplers. Some of these actually add huge amounts of jitter to the signals going through them so are bad choices for our purposes.​ A signal from the receiver now has a return current coming from the isolator so it’s happy. On the other side of the boundary there is a return current to the DAC circuitry so it is happy. *BUT any jitter on the signal coming out of the isolator is STILL creating ground plane noise with a spectrum related to the jitter it had on the other side of the isolator. In addition it is containing jitter related to the isolation scheme as well, and some of THAT jitter is ALSO related to noise on the ground plane on the receiver side.*​ *So again the ground plane isolation and signal isolators can decrease the jitter and noise going from the USB receiver to the DAC circuits, BUT they cannot eliminate it. Some always gets through.*​ So again the ground plane isolation and signal isolators can decrease the jitter and noise going from the USB receiver to the DAC circuits, BUT they cannot eliminate it. Some always gets through.​


 


> *First I am going to cover differences transmitted through USB packet timing. Remember from article two that the arrival of each USB packet in the receiver generates a burst of noise on the power traces and ground plane. Variations in the timing of these packets will significantly change the spectrum of the noise. Note: the bits still make it across correctly and the AVERAGE data rate stays the same. I’m going to call this “packet jitter”.*​


 
   
 Then from the Uptone website:
 http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner
  
 Quote:


> For example when talking about connections say downstream port of the REGEN is connected to the DAC. But when talking about signal integrity (SI) it is appropriate to talk about the receiver in the DAC PHY, since that is the part that is susceptible to SI. The transmitter in the DAC PHY is not active very much and has little impact on noise in the DAC. OTOH the transmitter in the REGEN's downstream PHY IS important to the SI received by the DAC PHY.
> 
> Since the receiver in the REGEN's upstream PHY is susceptible to SI just like every other USB PHY in existence the quality of the signal it receives is still important. So using a good cable and good host PHY are still important. Whether a PPA USB board in the computer feeding a good cable without a REGEN is going to be as good as a regular USB port and good cable and REGEN at DAC, who knows, there are so many variables it's impossible to make a general statement on that. BUT there is a good probability that the PPA AND the REGEN will sound better than either.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I guess the bottomline is keep the USB processing board OUT of the DAC - and on a separate AC line with at least with some decent common mode and differential mode isolation and filtering.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> What was that AirTight in your pic?
> 
> Man, - I've always wanted to hear Airtight Amps cause of their rep, and also their incredible beauty.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes had an Airtight 300B with NOS Western Electric 300's .  The tubes alone today go for $2000.
  
 They are truly pieces of masterful audio design.  The Tamura transformers are very special.
  
 If I ever started an audio company I would copy them but use Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold Oil caps, what a difference those made! - these were the stock ones:

  
  
 The modded BADA - wired with Mundorf solid silver/teflon wiring:

 I eventually replaced the MKP on the bottom - mounted to the underside:

  
 BTW those Mundorf Supreme S/G/O did wonders in my R2R PCM1704UK DAC60 mod project:

  
 I see many $10K+ amps and DACs that use $10 caps - you can really move the needle on lessor gear with totl caps - especailly for coupling


----------



## Albrecht

Man,
  
 Awesome....
  
 I would LOVE to hear your system, - so kick-ass!!!


----------



## FredA

abartels said:


> How could we know if there even is NO info available right now? If they have some sort of connection scheme to share with us,
> yes, then we could tell you if it's compatible with M7.
> 
> Maybe you could opt asking Kingwa to contact Singxer and confirm it is compatible.
> ...


 
 I believe the pinout is configurable to some extent, with dip switches. I am tempted by it as well.
  
 There you go:
  
 http://img.alicdn.com/bao/uploaded/i4/156213177/TB2MzJ6mFXXXXagXpXXXXXXXXXX_!!156213177.jpg
  
 Comes from this taobao agent page:
  
 http://www.buytome.com/fr/goods/item/detail/id/528898172401
  
 Just have to compare to audio-gd's. Looks the same.


----------



## hugoboss

@rb2013 how many days already that silver gold oil mundorf caps in your amp?
  
 one thing keep me stay away from mundorf silver gold in oil cap is some people said the oil will leak in hot environment like inside tube amp, then the caps died in very short life.
 i even email mundorf in germany. they reply just the same " don't use silver gold oil or silver in oil caps in tube amp"
 so i just planning to replace or the cap in my cayin tube amp with mundorf supreme caps (non oil)


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Man,
> 
> Awesome....
> 
> I would LOVE to hear your system, - so kick-ass!!!


 

 Thanks!  It's come to fruition after many decades of refining by trial and error.  Al most everything I bought wwas slightly used on Audiogon and resold at virtually the same price as I paid.  Bought the Firebirds almost new from a guy in Spokane for $9K!  Quite a discount from the $30k new price.  Back a decade ago Audiogon was an amazing place - not so much anymore with their new owners.
  
 At one point I had at least a couple of boxes of audio gear arriving each day and a few leaving...wife loved that.


----------



## Albrecht

Hear you.....
  
 Things have definitely changed over the years.... Before I bought my Merlins, I listened to the whole Talon line and really liked much of their work... My favorite was the unexpected, and less popular, Peregrine. They needed a special 2ft stand for them, - but wow.....
  
 Spent quite a few years myself, - before settling on the Blue Circle, Merlin, APL combo.... Love those hybrid, high current amps, with the 6922s. I am also big fan of the VAC, who also has a tight synergy goin on with Merlin.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> @rb2013 how many days already that silver gold oil mundorf caps in your amp?
> 
> one thing keep me stay away from mundorf silver gold in oil cap is some people said the oil will leak in hot environment like inside tube amp, then the caps died in very short life.
> i even email mundorf in germany. they reply just the same " don't use silver gold oil or silver in oil caps in tube amp"
> so i just planning to replace or the cap in my cayin tube amp with mundorf supreme caps (non oil)


 

 They have been running 24/7 for over two years - no issues.  I did thermal readings on them - not anywhere near the danger levels.  I drilled 1" holes on the top alumium cover - right over the tubes to allow them to vent.  That dropped the inside case temp by 10degrees F.
  
 The issue is really with the Silver Oil - not the Silver/Gold/Oil they are better.  Now you see how I mounted them - far from the tubes to the side.  I had the Silver Oils in my DAC60 without issue.
 http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html


> Mundorf MCap Supreme Silver Gold Oil 1200VDC - 2% tolerance
> Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "The MCap Supreme Silver Gold Oil is definitely the top-of-the line model of our oil impregnated capacitors. In comparison with the Silver/Oil version, it technically features a further extended lifetime. More importantly, sonically the Silver/Gold/Oil version stands out due to its wonderful natural singing and exceptional micro dynamic, same time. Capacitance: 0.010uF-10uF; Dielectric: Polyprophylene; Metallisation: 99.99% silver, 1% gold; Purity of silver: min. 99.97% typ. 99.99%; Purity of gold: min. 99.97% typ. 99.99%".
> Sound: At this level we are talking about a really serious capacitor, so my findings are relative to other exotic types. They are richer and better layered than the Mundorf Silver Gold (without the oil) and they seem more open and more spatial. Compared to the Duelund VSF-Cu they are not as rich in harmonic overtones. The Duelund VSF-Cu creates smoother harmonics and a better midrange balance but the Mundorf Silver Gold Oil really excels in image depth - call it bowling alley depth! In direct comparison, the Duelund VSF-Cu sounds flatter (a bit more 2D) and a little rounded-off at the top. Like most Mundorf capacitors, the Silver Gold Oil has a slight hint of top-end emphasis, this probably contributes to the perceived spatiality and micro-detailing. But I am very happy to live with that, these capacitors are so quiet and really let you look very deep into the recording!
> Verdict: 12+


 
 The Dueland wouldn't fit -


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hear you.....
> 
> Things have definitely changed over the years.... Before I bought my Merlins, I listened to the whole Talon line and really liked much of their work... My favorite was the unexpected, and less popular, Peregrine. They needed a special 2ft stand for them, - but wow.....
> 
> ...


 

 Merlins are excellent speakers - Blue Circle nice amps. VAC is very nice - but so expensive - like CJ.  Never a Mcintosh fan though - sounded too veiled to me
  
 I had a one point the Talon Khorus - their first speaker.


----------



## KEGGER

hugoboss said:


> @rb2013 how many days already that silver gold oil mundorf caps in your amp?
> 
> one thing keep me stay away from mundorf silver gold in oil cap is some people said the oil will leak in hot environment like inside tube amp, then the caps died in very short life.
> i even email mundorf in germany. they reply just the same " don't use silver gold oil or silver in oil caps in tube amp"
> so i just planning to replace or the cap in my cayin tube amp with mundorf supreme caps (non oil)


 
  
 Just for info,
 One of what I believe are some of the best caps for audio are the Russian K40Y9 Paper in oil like the following, and are right at home inside tube amps, I've used many.
 (come in 200-1000v varieties)
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-22uF-400V-PIO-Capacitors-K40Y9-K40U9-Matched-pair-2-x-220-3nF-/201521582477?hash=item2eeb9f518d:g:uZQAAOSwezVWvCZr
  
 EDIT:
 Also for resistors I always suggest no metal film in the signal path, my favorites there are the Kiwame/Kao Speer Carbon Films..


----------



## KEGGER

Thanks for those that commented on the USB cable length question I'm not gunna try and multiple quote here.
  
 Someone mentioned they thought at least 1.5m was the needed length, I believe that was for optical cables so the laser doesn't possibly bounce back.


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> Thanks for those that commented on the USB cable length question I'm not gunna try and multiple quote here.
> 
> Someone mentioned they thought at least 1.5m was the needed length, I believe that was for optical cables so the laser doesn't possibly bounce back.


 

 1.5M is optimal for SPDIF coax.


----------



## KEGGER

rb2013 said:


> kegger said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for those that commented on the USB cable length question I'm not gunna try and multiple quote here.
> ...


 
  
 But wasn't there a minimum suggested for optical for the "bounce back issue" ?
  
 I've got 1.5m XLO for my Coax,


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> But wasn't there a minimum suggested for optical for the "bounce back issue" ?
> 
> I've got 1.5m XLO for my Coax,


 

 No -  just coax - no back wave reflections on optical I'm aware of.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Startech 4 Port USB>LAN arrived this morning.
> 
> I swapped out the Intona Industrial for the Startech (left everything else as is) to make a proper 1 box change comparison. It has only taken 1 track for me to conclude that the Intona is considerably better *in my system* = it's staying!
> 
> ...


 
 Are you sure you bought the LAN version.  What's the model number?
  
   I would also try the Blue Jeans CAT6s 550Mhz UTP Ethernet cable - the one you are using looks like a STP (shielded) cable - that defeats the galvanic isolation.
 https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/index.htm


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Are you sure you bought the LAN version.  What's the model number?
> 
> I would also try the Blue Jeans CAT6s 550Mhz UTP Ethernet cable - the one you are using looks like a STP (shielded) cable - that defeats the galvanic isolation.
> https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/index.htm


 
  
 Do you know I thought that after posting.. but I since checked and the instructions clearly say it can be plugged into a router over LAN, it's deffo the gigabit LAN version.
  
 Obviously it was cold and I didn't let any burn in happen but the Intona just sounds right in my system so why change if there isn't an 'out of the box' step change up in quality?
  
 ... it just didn't happen in my system... LPS would probably help the Startech loads but that's another box that it _appears_ I probably don't need.
  
 Mate if you were down the road I'd bring the Intona over and be just as happy (and confused) if your current setup was better with the Startech - on the understanding that there is no one solution to fix all ills.
  
 But mate, you have created the best audio thread I've seen in many years... I look forward to testing the F-1


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Yes I use two now - one for the DDC chain and the other for the DAC.  They are useful.  I then have a separate one for the PC.  So everything is isolated.
> 
> The reason to keep the DAC and DDC separate is the issues John Swenson mentions about PHY AGC created 'Packet Noise' to to varying SI.  This can feed back through the AC power supply and cause noise issues with the DAC's femto clocks.  This may be why having the USB processing out of the DAC is best, keeping the DDC as a separate device on a separate power chain.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Robert:
  
 I don't mind you quoting John and I so extensively, but I wish you would not use our thoughts for justification/promotion of a highly compromised interface standard (S/PDIF) that deserved to die a decade ago.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 --Alex C.


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Are you sure you bought the LAN version.  What's the model number?
> 
> I would also try the Blue Jeans CAT6s 550Mhz UTP Ethernet cable - the one you are using looks like a STP (shielded) cable - that defeats the galvanic isolation.
> https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/index.htm


 
  
 ...sorry forgot to add it's an unshiedled CAT 6 cable I made myself.


----------



## Superdad

abartels said:


> Hi Bob, can you, or somebody else, zoom-in on the big black capacitor alike component? Is there any text on it?


 
  
 It is a switching regulator going right across the isolation domains.  There really is not going to be any easy way to separately power the downstream side of the F-1.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Do you know I thought that after posting.. but I since checked and the instructions clearly say it can be plugged into a router over LAN, it's deffo the gigabit LAN version.
> 
> Obviously it was cold and I didn't let any burn in happen but the Intona just sounds right in my system so why change if there isn't an 'out of the box' step change up in quality?
> 
> ...


 
 That would be grand!  I had a very brief listen to the Intona in my friends system and was not to impressed - but I would really need to hear it in mine.  I have to say more then satisfied right now - and with a 24V LPS coming I'm hoping it gets better - although I can't see how.  If my system gets any more transparent  - I might just disappear.
  


rw35 said:


> ...sorry forgot to add it's an unshiedled CAT 6 cable I made myself.


 
 Thanks - I would try the BJC CAT6a 550Mhz - it made a significant difference from the other UTP CAT6 cables I tried.  The worst had those ferrite beads on it like I see on yours.


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> It is a switching regulator going right across the isolation domains.  There really is not going to be any easy way to separately power the downstream side of the F-1.


 

 I found it - too bad I would like to see what @abartels version could do:


----------



## sbgk

superdad said:


> Hi Robert:
> 
> I don't mind you quoting John and I so extensively, but I wish you would not use our thoughts for justification/promotion of a highly compromised interface standard (S/PDIF) that deserved to die a decade ago.
> 
> ...


 
 JS didn't identify spdif as a weakness in his comments about the F1 on CA
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/xmos-xu208-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-bridge-28366/#post536601


----------



## Juko

How about this version of Icron http://icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan
Would this be even better, since its isochronous ?


----------



## Superdad

sbgk said:


> JS didn't identify spdif as a weakness in his comments about the F1 on CA


 
  
 I know.  John is always diplomatic--and he certainly knows how to design really great S/PDIF inputs (see the innovations for that he did in the design of the Bottlehead DAC's S/PDIF input--pasted below), and world-class S/PDIF output (see the Sonore Signature Rendu, with video op-amps driving the S/PDIF).
  
 But I am biased against S/PDIF for computer audio. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why go USB>I2S>S/PDIF-out to S/PDIF-in>I2S and embed the clock and reclock, etc? Too ugly, and just an excuse for a DAC not having a really well done USB input. 
  
  
 Oh, here is a bit about the BH DAC's S/PDIF input:
 "The S/PDIF inputs (coax and optical) just work with the source as master and the DAC as slave. Thus the DAC has to somehow synchronize its clock to the data rate from the source. This is traditionally done with a device called a PLL, which is built in to all the S/PDIF receiver chips. PLLs have much higher jitter than a good fixed frequency clock. The BH DAC does not do it this way. It cleans up the S/PDIF signal, and sends it into an FPGA (field programmable gate array) which does the S/PDIF decoding. But the special part is a digitally controlled ultra low jitter clock. This is almost as good as the best fixed frequency clocks. The FPGA tells this clock to speed up or slow down so it is synchronized to the average data rate of the source.
 The result of this is that both S/PDIF and USB produce ultra low jitter to the DAC chip."


----------



## Albrecht

Alex,
  
 Thanks for your comments.
  
 Are you saying that some of these great sounding USB to SPDIF-COAX converters first convert to I2s inside the device, - then on to COAX SPDIF? So, it would go, - USB to I2S then to SPDIF COAX?


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
   
Thank you. Just ordered. After reading all this, - Hopefully it'll blow away my Monster Power MP Pro 2000....

  
 (I have my APL and amp on a separate 20 amp dedicated circuit)


----------



## Superdad

albrecht said:


> Alex,
> 
> Thanks for your comments.
> 
> Are you saying that some of these great sounding USB to SPDIF-COAX converters first convert to I2s inside the device, - then on to COAX SPDIF? So, it would go, - USB to I2S then to SPDIF COAX?


 

 Well perhaps I mis-stated the chain as the processors generally generate S/PDIF internally--which of course embeds the clock and then has to driven over a cable and asynchronously reclocked at the other end.  And there are different ways to drive an S/PDIF line, plus some big compromises at the receiving end.
 Just not a fan, sorry.


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Hi Robert:
> 
> I don't mind you quoting John and I so extensively, but I wish you would not use our thoughts for justification/promotion of a highly compromised interface standard (S/PDIF) that deserved to die a decade ago.
> 
> ...


 

 Nothing in or about that post had anything to do with SPDIF it had to do with USB processing and noise in a DAC.
  
 You know I love the stuff JS posts about USB noise - can't wait to try the Uber-Regen!
  
 I know you hate SPDIF - so no offense taken - but so you know the F-1 does i2s as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

juko said:


> How about this version of Icron http://icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan
> Would this be even better, since its isochronous ?


 

 That is the version I have, just relabled Startech.
  
But it WON'T so iso audio - fortunately async audio is all I care about and it works great!
  
 That one does iso - but I think it's the same


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 It's all good. I totally understand. I see issues with all of them, and depending on implementation, - some issues can be overcome, others not so much...
  
 Some of us don't have too much of a choice, other than replacing a very expensive device, that is just not going to happen unless it breaks....
  
 Like given the choice between replacing my 20 stacked DACs, combo CD/SACD/DVD tubed Universal player with no master clock and built-in tubed pre just isn't going to happen.....


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> I know.  John is always diplomatic--and he certainly knows how to design really great S/PDIF inputs (see the innovations for that he did in the design of the Bottlehead DAC's S/PDIF input--pasted below), and world-class S/PDIF output (see the Sonore Signature Rendu, with video op-amps driving the S/PDIF).
> 
> But I am biased against S/PDIF for computer audio.
> 
> ...


 
 Well in theory you are right  - but it just sounds so freaking good in my system!  My trusted ears don't lie - the best audio source I have heard yet (and I have heard a few
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 How is this for a chain:  HD>SATA>CPU>USB>GB LAN ETHERNET>USB>SPDIF>I2S>DAC CHIP!
 Versus LP>NEEDLE>PHONO PREAMP
  
 Which one would you say is better?
  
 But the F-1 does i2s as well...as someone has already hooked up...


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Nothing in or about that post had anything to do with SPDIF it had to do with USB processing and noise in a DAC.
> 
> You know I love the stuff JS posts about USB noise - can't wait to try the Uber-Regen!
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for that.  
 I know the F-1 can output I2S as well, but since unlike others it does not allow for the DAC clock to be fed back in (and across the isolators) as master, it does not make for a compelling USB>I2S converter.  Better that everyone enjoy it as a nice USB>S/PDIF board.


----------



## rb2013

Now I have this nifty little box and it works great on my R2R PCM1704UK DAC60 - but made little difference on the APL NWOjr.  Both SPDIF coax - go figure?
  
 https://www.wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/remedy-reclocker
  


> Remedy Features
> 
> Utilizes an incredible Femto-grade clock
> Superior jitter reduction​ (click for measurements)
> ...


 


> I have one of your DACs with the Femto clock. Is there still a benefit to getting a Remedy or Recovery?
> 
> 
> Absolutely, yes. Consider the clock in the DAC a heartbeat and with every cycle or ‘beat’ it decides what to do with the bits. If that cycle is loose or inconsistent, then the analog waveform will not properly mirror to what the digital signal is telling it to do. Therefore, providing a steady signal to the DAC (via the Remedy or Recovery) is equally important to providing a steady conversion of that signal to the analog form. The DAC can only be as accurate as its clocking source (master clock) and if you provide a sloppy signal (digital input) for it to track with such a clock, it can only do so much with what it's given. On the flip side, if the signal fed to the DAC is higher quality than what the DAC is running from, then the limiting factor would be the DACs internal clock and in our case, this is where we put the Femto clock in the DAC.
> ...


 
 Remedy uses the same Crystek CCH575 as the F-1


  
  
 Now I'm sure the kind folks at W4S won't mind me quoting them.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It would be great to have JS do a i2s to SPDIF little box.


----------



## rb2013

I replaced the clock on my DAC60 with a Vanguard 0.1ppm TXCO and it made a nice difference!


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 I would hazard a guess that it's because of Alex's 20 asynchronous DAC tech with no master clock that mitigates many of these SPDIF clock issues...


----------



## rb2013

This one is a more expensive but would like to try sometime:
 http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/synchro-mesh

  
  
Audio quality is improved by reclocking or logically replacing the source clock with the clock inside the Synchro-Mesh. This clock has lower jitter than most source devices, so the result is a improved clarity, imaging, dynamics and bass impact.


> *“*Without Empirical reclocking we get a sound that’s comparatively dead behind the eyes. It walks like a zombie … It’s not just a nice-to-have addendum but a near must for serious furrowed-brow Squeezebox and Sonos owners.*”*
> John Darko, 6-Moons, May 2012


 In order for the Synchro-Mesh to reclock these digital devices, it performs what is called Asynchronous Sample-Rate Conversion or “ASRC”. This means that the Synchro-Mesh re-samples the data-stream and outputs only one sample-rate. This output sample-rate can be specified at the time of ordering to be either 44.1 or 96. If you input 192 or 44.1 files to the SM, and it is set for 96, then it will always output 96, either down-sampling or up-sampling. If you input 96 to the same SM, it will output 96, but it will not be bit-perfect since it is resampled.
Typically, we recommend 96 output because most DAC digital filters for 96 sound better than the filter for 44.1. If you have an older NOS DAC that only takes 16-bit data, then 44.1 output is more compatible.
The Synchro-Mesh is essentially plug-and-play, however you can set the bit depth to 16-bit or 24-bit using a front-panel toggle. 24-bit is generally better for most DACs, but older DACs may only be compatible with 16-bit data.


> *“*It sits in my system between the SONOS as a source and the REGA DAC.
> The difference it makes is rather astonishing.*”*
> JREM, May 2012


 What configuration to choose *OTL option (Output TransformerLess)*
 This option affects the S/PDIF output only. The OTL option reduces jitter at least 50% from the standard Off-Ramp 5 by removing the transformer for the S/PDIF output and changing some associated circuitry. If you have a DAC that already has a transformer on the S/PDIF input (galvanically isolated from ground), then this is an attractive option for you. It is unneccesary to have 2 transformers in series and one at the DAC input is more optimal than one at the Off-Ramp 5.
*Dynamo power supply upgrade*
 The Dynamo power supply is an upgrade for the standard AC adapter "wall-wart" that comes with the Synchro-Mesh. The Dynamo is a linear supply with Hynes regulation that is optimized for the Synchro-Mesh. The cabinetry matches the Synchro-Mesh, so it can be placed underneath or to the side. It comes with an umbilical cable to connect to the Synchro-Mesh. Customers have reported improved dynamics, more detail, better transparency and a greater sense of ease when using this supply with the Synchro-Mesh. "A great value". Use the configuration pull-down menu to add the Dynamo power supply to your order.
*BNC-BNC 4-foot cable option*
 This is a 75 ohm low-loss cable that Empirical Audio makes. It has true 75 ohm BNC connectors. The 75 ohm coax cable contains a center pure silver conductor and silver-plated copper shield over foil. The dielectric is expanded Teflon. We recommend this cable to go with the OTL option. The BNC-BNC cable comes with two 75 ohm RCA adapters so you can connect to any S/PDIF coax connector.
Specifications 


Download User Manual Inputs 
Toslink
RCA
BNC
 (only one of RCA or BNC can be used at one time)
Outputs 
Toslink
RCA
BNC
 (only one of RCA or BNC can be used at one time)
Controls 
Input select - Toslink or S/PDIF (BNC or RCA)
Bit depth - 16 or 24-bit
 Included 
Synchro-Mesh
12VDC AC Adapter
 30-day money-back guarantee, less shipping and any fees.
Download Drivers 
Windows 7 / Vista
Windows XP / 2003
Mac OSX 10.6 Snow Leopard
Mac OSX 10.5 Leopard
Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger


----------



## ciphercomplete

It is interesting that the Wyred recovery takes a 9v input instead of the 7.5v standard with the Regen. I have only powered my Regen with the supplied lps for comparison purposes and I have always used my HD Plex LPS and the funny thing is that to my ears the Regen sounds a hell of alot better using the 9v output vs the 5v from the HDPlex or the 7.5v from the supplied lps. I think these things need more than 5v when they are also tasked with supplying power to the upstream usb/spdif converter or dac usb input. This could account for some comparison reports where folks rate the Wyred over the Regen while some note little difference.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> It is interesting that the Wyred recovery takes a 9v input instead of the 5v standard with the Regen. I have only powered my Regen with the supplied lps for comparison purposes and I have always used my HD Plex LPS and the funny thing is that to my ears the Regen sounds a hell of alot better using the 9v output vs the 5v from either the HDPlex or the supplied lps. I think these things need more than 5v when they are also tasked with supplying power to the upstream usb/spdif converter or dac usb input. This could account for some comparison reports where folks rate the Wyred over the Regen while some note little difference.


 

 I'll beat @Superdad to the reply - the Regen outputs 5VDC, but needs at least 6-7VDC to power the regulators.  It can run at 9VDC if the USB DDC or DAC does not drawn to much current.  With the PUC2 Lite which is a current hog (what like 700mA Alex?) I used 7.5 VDC.  With the F-1 I set my LPS a bit higher at 8VDC.  The Recovery takes 9VDC (second version).


----------



## KEGGER

I don't want to clutter up the thread with spdif cable lengths, (coax and optical)
  
 But could someone point me to a thread/info on the subject of length and reflections?


----------



## ciphercomplete

I edited my post. I forgot the regen's included supply was 7.5. Nevertheless, 9v is better than 7.5 withthe regen imo.


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> I don't want to clutter up the thread with spdif cable lengths, (coax and optical)
> 
> But could someone point me to a thread/info on the subject of length and reflections?


 

 Sure:
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/faqs/why-is-1-5m-the-ideal-length-for-a-rcabnc-digital-cable/
  
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm


----------



## KEGGER

Thank you, I'll be reading..


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> Thank you, I'll be reading..


 

 De nada


----------



## Currawong

joesdad said:


> My question is, I kind of prefer optical input with my dac (old tweaked eac dsp-7000mkIII). How hard would it be to swap out the coax out for an optical out? As for my skill level, i own a solderin iron, but i am pretty clumsy with it.


 
  
 I wouldn't bother. The noise issues that the F-1 solves are eliminated by using optical in the first place. I'd simply compare using the F-1 with Schiit Wyrd, iUSB 3.0 or whatever with using optical and see which you feel sounds better. 


motberg said:


> I partially wrapped my Intona in a mu-metal sheet, not sure if it helped anything, it is setting aside my DAC....


 
  
 Unless that metal sheet is grounded, it might not do much.
  


albrecht said:


> What was that AirTight in your pic?
> 
> Man, - I've always wanted to hear Airtight Amps cause of their rep, and also their incredible beauty.
> 
> ...


 
  
 There's a local guy here in Japan who mods them. Heard a full pre/monoblock set-up with Avantgarde horns which was incredible. If you can't afford Shindo, then you get Airtight. 
  
 One of the second-hand rigs I heard was quite inexpensive too -- only around $15k including ELAC speakers, but it was only using a cheap Sony SACD player as source and I'm not including cables and accessories, so let's say closer to $20k realistically. But if I'd had that kind of money spare I would have bought it on the spot.
  


superdad said:


> But I am biased against S/PDIF for computer audio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Given the large number of issues that must be overcome with USB, using it in the first place is rather crazy for sending noise-free and jitter-free audio. That's the reason that it is hard to get a "really well done USB input". A realistically better optical for computer-based audio is most likely a well-implemented streaming server with a good S/PDIF output IMO.


----------



## rb2013

I think SPDIF coax - like USB - is full of issues.  But with care and attention they can be overcome and produce amazing sound.
  
 I see totl DACs with only USB and SPDIF (Chord DAVE), or SPDIF and AES67 Ethernet (Merging Tech NADAC), or DAR's current top DAC
  
 Aqua HiFi's La Scala MK2 - reviewed using only SPDIF.  These are all the new and best from these excellent shops.
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/
  


> _Premier League _​
> Aqua Hifi La Scala MKII


 
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/03/aqua-hifi-la-scala-mkii-dac-review/


> USB reception across the swathe of budget D/A converters can best be described as a mixed bag. *USB often sounds diluted when compared directly to the same DAC’s neighbouring S/PDIF feed*. I start to expect more from decoders that cause financial spill above $2k so I’m pleased (and relieved!) to report that at the even loftier asking price of five thousand Euros, the La Scala’s XMOS USB input is rock solid. *When directly connect to a MacMini via USB the La Scala MKII sounded no weaker than calling on the Resonessence Labs Concero HD to intercede as USB-S/PDIF middle man.*​* *


 
  


> There’s no doubt that this is the finest sounding DAC to date to grace my life/system/website with its presence.​


 
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html


----------



## rb2013

juko said:


> How about this version of Icron http://icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan
> Would this be even better, since its isochronous ?


 

 I just went back to the Amazon listing for the Startech GB LAN USB extender I recieved.
  
 It does do iso!  And can channel through multiple switches at 100m intervals, then resets at each switch to extend miles...
  
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
  


> Extend USB 2.0 devices up to 330ft (100m) over a Gigabit Ethernet LAN, or dedicated Cat5e/6 cabling - The USB2G4LEXT2 4-Port USB 2.0 Extender System lets you extend USB devices over a Gigabit Ethernet Local Area Network (LAN), or through dedicated Cat5e/6 cabling up to 330ft (100m).Connecting over your existing IP LAN avoids the hassle and cost of running new infrastructure cabling and provides an increased and highly scalable overall extension distance. When channeling through multiple switches at 100m intervals, the maximum extension distance resets at each switch location, making it easy to span multiple floors in a home or office setting. For further versatility you can connect the local and remote units via a single Cat5e or better cable. Unlike 10/100Mbps USB extenders, this versatile USB extender leverages the full data transfer potential of your USB 2.0 peripherals up to 480Mbps, *to deliver lag-free performance that enables support for extending isochronous devices* such as webcams or microphones. Compatible with USB 2.0, and 1.1 devices with support for up to 600mA of power per port, the USB over Cat5e extender supports most USB peripherals including flash drives, webcams, keyboards, mice and drive enclosures. A flexible solution for business or industrial applications, this rugged metal enclosure includes wall-mounting brackets and simple plug-and-play installation with no software or drivers required. Backed by a StarTech.com 2-year warranty and free lifetime technical support.


 
  
  
 This one i posted earlier is the wrong one!?  Are there TWO ICRON 1GB LAN extenders?  One that does iso and one that does not?
 But ICRON only shows one that does not do iso on their website - and it's white colored.  Maybe the one that does iso is black and only OEM available as a special order?
  
USB 2.0 Ranger® 2304-LAN 
 http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-ranger-2304-lan/

  


> The USB 2.0 Ranger 2304-LAN is a four port USB 2.0 high-speed extension solution with the ability to connect USB 3.0, 2.0 and 1.1 devices  such as flash drives, keyboards, mice, and interactive whiteboards to hosts across a Local Area Network (LAN) using existing Ethernet cabling. *Please note, isochronous peripherals (such as webcams and audio devices) are not supported.*


----------



## rb2013

This white ICRON Ranger 2304-LAN is available here for $499 - but does NOT do iso devices
  
 http://www.kvm-switches-online.com/00-00335.html?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&gclid=CjwKEAjwjca5BRCAyaPGi6_h8m8SJADryPLhuAMaNK-Oy5wBXztNNcFCVC2LG9CNwtYpehkXXXgm9hoCI1fw_wcB
  


> The USB 2.0 Ranger 2304-LAN is a four port USB 2.0 high-speed extension solution with the ability to connect USB 3.0, 2.0 and 1.1 devices such as flash drives, keyboards, mice, and interactive whiteboards to hosts across a Local Area Network (LAN) using existing Ethernet cabling. Please note, isochronous peripherals (such as webcams and audio devices) are not supported.
> The USB 2.0 Ranger 2304-LAN extends USB 3.0, 2.0 and 1.1 peripherals such as flash drives, keyboards, mice, and interactive whiteboards across a Local Area Network (LAN) and supports modern USB 3.0 controllers. The Ranger 2304-LAN includes the ExtremeUSB® suite of features such as true plug and play (no software drives required) and compatibility with all leading operating systems. Up to 31 USB devices or hubs can be supported over LAN. Please note, isochronous devices (such as webcams and audio) are not supported.


 
 And does not say anything about the reset feature like the Startech I bought.


----------



## rb2013

Holy Crap!  Stop the presses - there are TWO different ICRON LAN USB extenders!
  
 http://www.kvm-switches-online.com/00-00335.html?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&gclid=CjwKEAjwjca5BRCAyaPGi6_h8m8SJADryPLhuAMaNK-Oy5wBXztNNcFCVC2LG9CNwtYpehkXXXgm9hoCI1fw_wcB
 In the above website it says:


> Is this a 2304GE-LAN or just an 2304-LAN? I need the GE version
> 
> Thank you for your inquiry,
> 
> The 00-00335 is the 2304-LAN. *We do sell the gigabyte 2304GE-LAN version as well but do not currently have it online - for pricing and availablity*, please feel free to contact your KVM Switches Online sales representative directly at 1-877-586-6654, at sales@kvm-switches-online.com, or via our online Chat functionality.


 
  
 So the one you want is the ICRON 2304*GE*-LAN!
  
 Is it possible the OEM deal with PS Audio precludes ICRON selling the GE-LAN version on line?


----------



## rb2013

http://www.icron.com/icron-technologies-expands-usb-over-network-product-family/
  
 http://icronshop.com/home/ranger-2304ge-lan-
  
 This is the one:
USB 2.0 RG2304GE-LAN  RG2304GE-LAN is a 4-port isochronous USB 2.0 extender across Gigabit Ethernet Local Area Network (LAN) 


 http://icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan


----------



## wushuliu

I have absolutely no idea what's happening right now.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> I have absolutely no idea what's happening right now.


 

 Well I uncovered a ICRON LAN USB extender that is different the one we want - just to clarify:
  
 It should be the 1GB LAN USB extender that DOES iso devices.  ICRON has many different boxes that look the same - but have different capabilities.
  
 Fortunately the one I have is the right one!
  
 I found it on the ICRON website - but only under OEM tab:

  
  
  
 http://www.icron.com/products/oem/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-rg2304ge-lan/


> USB 2.0 RG2304GE-LAN
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,

Here's a link.....

http://icronshop.com/home/ranger-2304ge-lan-


----------



## rb2013

I see the Startech version I bought for $479 has jumped in price on Amazon to $493!
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here's a link.....
> 
> http://icronshop.com/home/ranger-2304ge-lan-


 

 Wrong one!  Follow my link from my post a few above here:
 http://icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan?search_query=RG2304GE-LAN&results=2
  
 Availability:  1-2 weeks


----------



## wushuliu

Lol. I think I'll wait for the inevitably cheaper knock off sure to pop up on ebay in a few months.


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> I see the Startech version I bought for $479 has jumped in price on Amazon to $493!
> http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00


 
 It's still $479 from Amazon, but it's backordered.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Lol. I think I'll wait for the inevitably cheaper knock off sure to pop up on ebay in a few months.


 

 Hopefully - but tough tech to dupicate.  Even PS Audio had to go to ICRON for OEMing


----------



## wushuliu

Has anyone tried these Elfidelity USB filter ports?


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> It's still $479 from Amazon, but it's backordered.


 
 Oh I saw this:
  
StarTech.com 4-Port 330-Feet (100m) USB 2.0 Over Gigabit LAN or Direct Cat5e/Cat6 Ethernet Extender System (USB2G4LEXT2)  

  by StarTech

 _4.6 out of 5 stars_   13 customer reviews  

  
  
  
 
Price:$493.75  & *FREE Shipping*


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Has anyone tried these Elfidelity USB filter ports?


 

 iFi knock off - no


----------



## FredA

Found this new ddc on taobao (available on aliexpress and soon on qlshifi, i presume).. It is based on the u8 chip however. It features high-quality parts and elaborated power supplies. The xmos is powered by usb and the ouputs are fed through a separate external supply with filtering and regulation onboard. At first glance, the components seem of very high quality, can't tell which ioscillators they use though. The price is low given the overall quality. Might be the next giant killer.

http://www.qlshifi.com/wzcp/qa730u.htm


----------



## ccschua

It seems the pro4a will take some more time to hit the shore. it will be based on XU216 with spdif out.


----------



## Albrecht

You mean the USB gigabit LAN IFs? They've been around for at least 4 years, and they are not any kind of audio device. They are used to extend keyboards, mice, & cameras over Layer 3 switches and LANs for conference rooms. I can't see where they'd be capable of making them cheaper as they have very expensive ASIO chips in them.....

Using 2 of them on an audio rack side by side is kind of a waste IMO. I know that using them for signal isolation and "re-generation" is huge, - but their design is to extend peripherals long distances. To me, one of its biggest attributes is to get the computer very far away from the audio system. Now all you need on the audio rack is the USB to SPDIF IF, or USB DAC.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,

WOw.. Crazy... The didn't even change the model name, - and it's an identical price....

Yet yours definitely says isochronous, - crazy.....


----------



## Juko

Yes, I think RG2304GE-LAN is the right version of Icron extenders for audio. The one without iso may not sound as good.


----------



## abartels

freda said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > How could we know if there even is NO info available right now? If they have some sort of connection scheme to share with us,
> ...


 
 Thanks for sharing with us:


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Holy Crap!  Stop the presses - there are TWO different ICRON LAN USB extenders!
> 
> http://www.kvm-switches-online.com/00-00335.html?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&gclid=CjwKEAjwjca5BRCAyaPGi6_h8m8SJADryPLhuAMaNK-Oy5wBXztNNcFCVC2LG9CNwtYpehkXXXgm9hoCI1fw_wcB
> In the above website it says:
> ...


 

 The one I tried was Startech *USB2G4LEXT2*, correct device?


----------



## abartels

kegger said:


> hugoboss said:
> 
> 
> > @rb2013 how many days already that silver gold oil mundorf caps in your amp?
> ...


 
  
 I also bought very nice sounding Sprague VitaminQ caps, paper in oil, use them also in speaker crossover network in combination with Mundorf foil coils.
 Found them 10 years ago on ebay for a bargain, have them up to 10uF


----------



## abartels

superdad said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Bob, can you, or somebody else, zoom-in on the big black capacitor alike component? Is there any text on it?
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for clarifying to us (eh, the others, I won't use this device since I prefer low computing>direct I2S out>direct coupling to dac)


----------



## abartels

superdad said:


> sbgk said:
> 
> 
> > JS didn't identify spdif as a weakness in his comments about the F1 on CA
> ...


 
  
 +1
  
 Totally agree!!


----------



## abartels

wushuliu said:


> Has anyone tried these Elfidelity USB filter ports?


 
 I used the internal PCIe version which performed very well!!!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> wushuliu said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone tried these Elfidelity USB filter ports?
> ...


 
 Those are NO iFi knock off's, Elfidelity has their own designs, just as the filters *you* bought from them. SATA filters worked VERY well for me too, as did the fan filters end PCIe filters.
 All available at very reasonable (bargain!!) prices!


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Found this new ddc on taobao (available on aliexpress and soon on qlshifi, i presume).. It is based on the u8 chip however. It features high-quality parts and elaborated power supplies. The xmos is powered by usb and the ouputs are fed through a separate external supply with filtering and regulation onboard. At first glance, the components seem of very high quality, can't tell which ioscillators they use though. The price is low given the overall quality. Might be the next giant killer.
> 
> http://www.qlshifi.com/wzcp/qa730u.htm


 
 It is a nice looking board - wish it had the XU208 and better clocks.
  


ccschua said:


> It seems the pro4a will take some more time to hit the shore. it will be based on XU216 with spdif out.


 
 Nice!  That should be interesting - Whoa let's get this party started!
 I'm do to receive one of the first Pro4a's, I would assume it will have NDK SD clocks, and the DIYinHK ultra low noise regulators.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> You mean the USB gigabit LAN IFs? They've been around for at least 4 years, and they are not any kind of audio device. They are used to extend keyboards, mice, & cameras over Layer 3 switches and LANs for conference rooms. I can't see where they'd be capable of making them cheaper as they have very expensive ASIO chips in them.....
> 
> Using 2 of them on an audio rack side by side is kind of a waste IMO. I know that using them for signal isolation and "re-generation" is huge, - but their design is to extend peripherals long distances. To me, one of its biggest attributes is to get the computer very far away from the audio system. Now all you need on the audio rack is the USB to SPDIF IF, or USB DAC.


 
 Well I think as @Superdad stated (correct me if I'm wrong) there is no ASIC (application specific intregrated circuit), but a full blown SPARTAN 6 (as @Currawong states a CPU in itself) FPGA programmed to do the conversion to TCP/IP.  This is a very powerful chip (Chord has programmed it to be used as a multi-bit DAC, with great success in the Hugo DAC).
  
 I will buy an inexpensive WiFi to place in between the LEX and the REX - to see if that works, if it improves the sound, if I can remove the PC from the sound room.  If successful I might be tempted to get an additional REX and try running two audio systems from one computer. 
  


albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> WOw.. Crazy... The didn't even change the model name, - and it's an identical price....
> 
> Yet yours definitely says isochronous, - crazy.....


 
 +1
  


juko said:


> Yes, I think RG2304GE-LAN is the right version of Icron extenders for audio. The one without iso may not sound as good.


 
 I think you are correct - in terms of SQ


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> The one I tried was Startech *USB2G4LEXT2*, correct device?


 

 Yes that is correct - did you get it from Amazon?


----------



## rb2013

Quote:


abartels said:


> Those are NO iFi knock off's, Elfidelity has their own designs, just as the filters *you* bought from them. SATA filters worked VERY well for me too, as did the fan filters end PCIe filters.
> All available at very reasonable (bargain!!) prices!


 
 They make some ok stuff - on two of my ElFidelity SATA filters the caps just fell off!  Their USB card was a dud.


----------



## KEGGER

Well as it turns out my XLO Coax cable is 1m, not 1.5. (Figured I wanted to try an get 1.5m)
  
 So I went looking for an inexpensive alternative, I'm taking a chance on these, not much to loose.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/360491344984?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Yah I know there marked composite video, but research leads me to believe there the same exact ones used for digital coax.
 And if so could be a killer bargain, there freakin 7 cable lots for each listing you buy! (and say there true 75ohm connectors)
  
 EDIT:
  
 Dam,
 I looked at the rest of the auctions they have for these cables at other length's and there not lots, just 1 cable, I may get hosed on the 7 here I think.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I also bought very nice sounding Sprague VitaminQ caps, paper in oil, use them also in speaker crossover network in combination with Mundorf foil coils.
> Found them 10 years ago on ebay for a bargain, have them up to 10uF


 

 Q's not even in the same league as the Mundorf Supreme S/G/O's
 Vishay owns Sprague now - the 730P was rated here at 8, the Mundorf Sup S/G/O 12+
 They did test a Russian - Kuznetskiy Zavod Kondensatorov KZK K78-34 250VAC 8.5 

 These are really good - but very limited in values:
Jupiter Condenser Copper Foil Paper & Wax 100VDC - 5% tolerance
Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "Tolerance +/- 5%; Operating temperature: 80°C; Voltage: 600VDC, tested at 1200VDC; Dielectric: Paper & Wax Pure Copper Foil CDA-101 Oxygen Free, Purity 99.99%; Silver 4N Wire Leads 20AWG; RoHS Compliant; Made in USA"
Sound: The Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax seems to have everything you are looking for in a capacitor: a coherent and organic presentation, detail and smoothness come hand-in-hand, a well controlled and focussed image, rich and transparant overtones, they are all there. The image is produced against a quiet background making it sound spatious with good retrieval of the recording venue. For example on Jordi Savall's mulit-channel recording of "Ã‰sprit D'ArmÃ©nie", when you close your eyes it is as if you are sitting there in the old church building with the musician's only a few metres away. The texture and timbre of acoustic instruments seems very realistic. Comparing the Jupiter with other high quality capacitors, you get similar amounts of fine detail as you do with the Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold Oil but with more weight and coherence. The top end clarity of the Jupiter also has certain richness to it. It's organic texture and smoothness is very similar to that of the Duelund RS but with a tad more "shine" in the top octave. I guess if you want to be as close to absolute, ruler flat neutrality as possible then the Duelund RS would be your favourite. If you are looking for a tad more air at the top, then the Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax is a serious alternative. A matter of personal taste I would say. Switching to a different copper-foil capacitor, the Rike Audio Q-Cap, you get more body especially noticable with solo piano. But the Q-Cap doesn't have that same lush and intimate character that makes the Jupiter so convincing and lovable. Comparing the Jupiter with the Duelund CAST-Cu, I found there was a tad more blacker background and a little more "being there" effect with the CAST-Cu. Only a very small difference but noticable, especially on well recorded classical music with real-life acoustics. Anyway, the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax is one of my favourite capacitors!
Verdict: 13


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> +1
> 
> Totally agree!!


 

 Well Chord, Aqua HiFi, Merging Technology, Schiit, TotalDAC and just about every other high end DAC builder disagree with you and @Superdad
  
 But who are they in the face of the designer of an 8 R-Core DAC


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> abartels said:
> ...


 
  
 I got them shipped in retail packaging, transparent plastic boxes, received them 100% OK. We measured noise on standard USB from my pc and from Elfidelity, which was a huge difference in noise figures.
 It's not comparable with PPA cards, it doesn't have it's own clock, but it DOES feed devices with external power instead of USB power, which is neet for the few bucks this thing costs. But, I don't use it anymore,,,,,,,
  
  
  
 Btw, the MORNSUN B0505S-1WR2 indeed is a DC/DC converter. It has a minimum of 60mV noise, which is rather high. Can't imagine it's that kind of a difficult job to remove it and feed external clean power......


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Yes that is correct - did you get it from Amazon?


 

 Got it from Ballicom in the UK


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > I also bought very nice sounding Sprague VitaminQ caps, paper in oil, use them also in speaker crossover network in combination with Mundorf foil coils.
> ...


 
  
 I know those Mundorfs are great sounding caps, btw, Sprague 730P is a metallized polypropylene cap, absolutely not comparable with old NOS paper in oil. And yes, there are differences between VitaminQ's and other Sprague series, and the Russian types.
 Not saying VitaminQ is better than Mundorf, only saying that in the lower priceranges those are outperforming EVERYTHING. I bought a bunch of those VitaminQ's (about 50 pieces between .5 and 1.5uf, and 10 pieces of 10uF) for $25, shipment to The Netherlands $13.
 Thats a bargain I would say. And they do sound marvelous. But, gladly I don't have ANY caps in my system's signal path except for 6dB speaker crossover. I rather would use expensive 1:1 coils instead of caps.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I know those Mundorfs are great sounding caps, btw, Sprague 730P is a metallized polypropylene cap, absolutely not comparable with old NOS paper in oil. And yes, there are differences between VitaminQ's and other Sprague series, and the Russian types.
> Not saying VitaminQ is better than Mundorf, only saying that in the lower priceranges those are outperforming EVERYTHING. I bought a bunch of those VitaminQ's (about 50 pieces between .5 and 1.5uf, and 10 pieces of 10uF) for $25, shipment to The Netherlands $13.
> Thats a bargain I would say. And they do sound marvelous. But, gladly I don't have ANY caps in my system's signal path except for 6dB speaker crossover. I rather would use expensive 1:1 coils instead of caps.


 

 Will you add 'A Man With No Caps' to your moniker?


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > I know those Mundorfs are great sounding caps, btw, Sprague 730P is a metallized polypropylene cap, absolutely not comparable with old NOS paper in oil. And yes, there are differences between VitaminQ's and other Sprague series, and the Russian types.
> ...


 
 hmm, sorry Bob, please explain, it's probably a saying in US, but my native language is Dutch and can't understand this.....


----------



## Albrecht

My bad...

Yes, it's ASIC, not ASIO. It kind of turns thing up another notch for us audiophile types to make sure that we get the correct device. Glad that you confirmed directly with Icron. 

Since PSAudio will be rebranding, Icron is likely now aware, or soon will be, of the audio specific application. A year ago, I doubt that this was the case, & likely the isosynchronous application/addition was possibly for video? 

It doesn't matter, just a bit of curious speculation on my part. At $417, $479, or $599, - these are super high value, and incredibly cheap when compared to computer tweaks, extra boxes to mitigate issues, or (possibly) distributive USB audio. Plus, - it may even keep some companies in business, like Pure Music or Amarra. These cheaper USB extenders on the other hand, are pointless in comparison. 

I just dropped $900 on a microRendu NAA, and I can't justify backing out: besides it sounds amazing. But, if I wouldn't already have started down this path 5 months ago, I would've snagged up a few of these and pulled out 4 boxes and their expensive cables form the audio rack...

Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> hmm, sorry Bob, please explain, it's probably a saying in US, but my native language is Dutch and can't understand this.....


 

 Just me having some fun - no worries.  Your RiPi has no caps?
  
 BTW my APL NWOjr DAC use Lundahl transformer coupling for the tube output stage - very nice.
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html
  
 I'm amazed when I see $20K gear with WIMA Red box MKP10 $3 caps - they did come in with an 8 rating (better then the WIMA Redbox MKP4 at 6)
 These are also very nice - but limited in values:
Intertechnik Audyn True Copper Max MKP 630VDC - 2% tolerance


 BTW a great place to buy caps is Sonic Craft - they'll do 0.25% (1/4 of the factory) matching for an additional $5 a cap on the Mundorfs.
 http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/mundorf-supreme-sgo-27uf-1000vdc-p-3587


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> My bad...
> 
> Yes, it's ASIC, not ASIO. It kind of turns thing up another notch for us audiophile types to make sure that we get the correct device. Glad that you confirmed directly with Icron.
> 
> ...


 

 +1 Yes I agree.  Waiting for the 24v LPS for the REX unit to see what that does.


----------



## wushuliu

Prefer clarity mr and jantzen supes myself. Obbligato for budget.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Prefer clarity mr and jantzen supes myself. Obbligato for budget.


 

 Well my fav is the Teflon V-CAP TFT - but $700 for 3.3uv is a little over my budget
  
 Oh and these beauties!
 $2000 per 3.3 cap


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > hmm, sorry Bob, please explain, it's probably a saying in US, but my native language is Dutch and can't understand this.....
> ...


 
  
 Hi Bob,
  
 RPI3+DAC+Pro of course have caps in their design, but not in signal path. Btw, DAC+Pro is only I2S output, how could you put caps in those lines, even if you wanted to? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 AK4495SEQ chip has ZERO DC output.
 Quote from AKM 4495SEQ whitepapers:

 "The AK4495SEQ has full differential SCF outputs, removing the need for AC coupling capacitors ..."
  
  
 My pre-amp doesn't have caps in signal path, and my power-amp neither......
 Those are both DC, Class-A and NO feedback. Yes, I know, it's rather dangerous when something happens in source,
 but never (35 years or even more) had any problems with DC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I always removed caps from signal path in all dac's I owned in the past, and always successful. Sometimes I had like 0.5mV offset, but never troubles with it. And it sounds SOOOOO much better without caps in signal path.
  
 Like the best DAC is NO DAC, is the best CAP NO CAP 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Cheers


----------



## Mogos

Very intersting thread. A lot of informations. Congratulations!
  
 I am a little confused in the subject of use of the LAN converters. I understand that they are used by you to obtain the isolation from the source (computer). But accordning to the description of the F-1 or SU-1 and the look of the PCB (splitted board like in the intona) they already provide full isolation (same as intona). Or I am missing something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## rb2013

I always laugh when I go to the DIYinHK website - these guys don't even know how to read a log scale!
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html
 They post this quote and the chart below:


> 3) NDK NZ2520SD Ultra low phase noise oscillator and Murata capacitor sourced from Japan directly (guarantee no fake product from China)
> According to the official datasheet, *the phase noise of NZ2520SD is much better than the famous crystek 957 under 25khz*(human listenable range)
> For easier comparsion(lower is better), *we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale*, *under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better*, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better.


 


 As you can see the jagged blue line (Crystek CCHD-975) drops below the solid red line (NDK SD) at 2.5kHz not 25kHz!
 Are these guys morons?
  
 Everything these guys claim I take with a very small grain of salt (like ultra low noise regulators).


----------



## rb2013

mogos said:


> Very intersting thread. A lot of informations. Congratulations!
> 
> I am a little confused in the subject of use of the LAN converters. I understand that they are used by you to obtain the isolation from the source (computer). But accordning to the description of the F-1 or SU-1 and the look of the PCB (splitted board like in the intona) they already provide full isolation (same as intona). Or I am missing something
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the kind words!
  
 Great question.  The F-1 and SU-1 (like the Tanly before) use FPGA's to isolate the SPDIF from the USB - but it's not galvanic isolation.   That is very difficult to achieve at USB hi speed throughput.
  
 Tanly U8 DDC:

  
 Singxer F-1 Note the DCtoDC isloation on the F-1 actually looks better then on the Tanly - both use Crystek low noise clocks (like the Berkeley):

 Note the lack of Murata or Pulse transformers on the SPDIF like in almost every other DDC I've posted about:
 X-1:


 Gustard U12:

  
 Breeze DU-U8:

  
  
  
  
 This was modeled, I believe on the Berkely Alpha design (although the BA uses different components- and is $1800


----------



## BucketInABucket

Got my F1 and am currently powering it straight from my laptop. Either my DACMagic USB section sucks or the F1 is brilliant...or both.


----------



## Mogos

Thank you for the explanation. Ok I clearly understand the way the LAN solution provieds the isolation. But could you explain, if you know, in wich way the intona achive the galvanic isolation. They are also using FPGA's if I am not mistaken. What additional solution they use to be different and better then F1 or SU-1.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> It is a nice looking board - wish it had the XU208 and better clocks.
> 
> Nice!  That should be interesting - Whoa let's get this party started!
> I'm do to receive one of the first Pro4a's, I would assume it will have NDK SD clocks, and the DIYinHK ultra low noise regulators.


 
  
 The clocks are hard to identify. Supposedly expensive imports. If these are ndks or crysteks, I am tempted a lot.


----------



## 154931

Please excuse my ignorance. Why do you need this? Am I understanding that if you have a cheap DAC with coaxial, you can use this bridge and make the DAC/sound better? Does USB connections give better sound? Can I use this with my Logitech Squeezebox Touch? Thanks.


----------



## wushuliu

So far I have found the F-1 to be neutral in presentation. Someone mentioned 'solid state' as a description and I have not noticed that myself. IMO the F-1 brings out the sonic attributes of the dac chip without getting in the way.


----------



## FredA

abartels said:


> Thanks for clarifying to us (eh, the others, I won't use this device since I prefer low computing>direct I2S out>direct coupling to dac)




Same for me. With the audio-gd master-7, using i2s with pll off makes the ddc the master clock. Therefore, the sound is improved each time you improve your ddc and its connection.


----------



## RickyV

Hi,
  
 Here are some pic's.


----------



## Currawong

micho said:


> Please excuse my ignorance. Why do you need this? Am I understanding that if you have a cheap DAC with coaxial, you can use this bridge and make the DAC/sound better? Does USB connections give better sound? Can I use this with my Logitech Squeezebox Touch? Thanks.


 

 I'm using it on an expensive DAC. If you have a cheap DAC, whether or not it would be better than simply buying a better DAC is debatable.


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Well Chord, Aqua HiFi, Merging Technology, Schiit, TotalDAC and just about every other high end DAC builder disagree with you and @Superdad
> 
> But who are they in the face of the designer of an 8 R-Core DAC


 
  
 It's hard to tell that they disagree...
 They must include spdif in their DACs because it's the most popular digital connection still and the most compatibile.
 They must include usb because it's current "must have" for all with computers, laptops, mobile devices, NAA etc.
 If they weren't they would definetly shoot themself in the foot and reduce the profit.
 Who would buy a DAC with only AES67 or I2S?
  
 AES67 isn't popular yet, and more oriented for professional audio. Maybe some day.
 I2S has no standard so it's for hobbyists or more often used (and safer) when producers have dedicated and expensive transport for DAC (Aqua HiFi, PS Audio, Accuphase, MSB, Ancient Audio, Ayon Audio etc.) - so one could be tempted to buy the transport and dac for better sounding.


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Got my F1 and am currently powering it straight from my laptop. Either my DACMagic USB section sucks or the F1 is brilliant...or both.


 

 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

mogos said:


> Thank you for the explanation. Ok I clearly understand the way the LAN solution provieds the isolation. But could you explain, if you know, in wich way the intona achive the galvanic isolation. They are also using FPGA's if I am not mistaken. What additional solution they use to be different and better then F1 or SU-1.


 

 Good question - I couldn't answer


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


>


 

 They are clearly not NDK SD or CCHD either 975 or 575 - these are quite distinctive.  The look like one many XO's available.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> So far I have found the F-1 to be neutral in presentation. Someone mentioned 'solid state' as a description and I have not noticed that myself. IMO the F-1 brings out the sonic attributes of the dac chip without getting in the way.


 

 Me - the tone is rich and warm - but with great detail.  The ideal combination.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> It's hard to tell that they disagree...
> They must include spdif in their DACs because it's the most popular digital connection still and the most compatibile.
> They must include usb because it's current "must have" for all with computers, laptops, mobile devices, NAA etc.
> If they weren't they would definetly shoot themself in the foot and reduce the profit.
> ...


 

 Well John Darko and Srajan Ebaen - certainly agree with me.  And they have heard more totl DAC's then you, me and @Superdad combined.  From SPDIF, USB and i2s.
  
 Maybe you missed this I posted from John Darko's review of his current #1 DAC the Aqua HiFi La Scala MK2:
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/03/aqua-hifi-la-scala-mkii-dac-review/


> *USB reception across the swathe of budget D/A converters can best be described as a mixed bag. USB often sounds diluted when compared directly to the same DAC’s neighbouring S/PDIF feed.* I start to expect more from decoders that cause financial spill above $2k so I’m pleased (and relieved!) to report that at the even loftier asking price of five thousand Euros, the La Scala’s XMOS USB input is rock solid. When directly connect to a MacMini via USB the La Scala MKII *sounded no weaker than calling on the Resonessence Labs Concero HD to intercede as USB-S/PDIF middle man.*​


 
   
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/
 Quote:


> _Premier League _​
> Aqua Hifi La Scala MKII
> _Division 1_​
> Chord Hugo TT
> ...


 
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html
 Here Srajan uses SPDIF to review the La Scala MK2
  
  
 People who dismiss a USB bridge because it has SPDIF, based on some prejudice - without ever hearing it are highly suspect in my opinion (Sorry @Superdad- but your attitude, as many have commented on before is - let's be polite - a bit stiff, shall we say)


----------



## BucketInABucket

rb2013 said:


> Cheers!


 
 Didn't even have to try hard to hear a difference honestly, the XU208 is great~


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> They are clearly not NDK SD or CCHD either 975 or 575 - these are quite distinctive.  The look like one many XO's available.




I tried to zoom them and play with contrast and tones. The case look like ndk but not the lettering. They state that they are the latest tech. available. They also claim that the computer/usb side is perfectly isolated from the audio side (i would be surprised if it came close).. In any case, their is a lot of regulation and filtering on this board, that is for sure. Independent supply for everything.They say it is biased a bit toward an anlalog sound, very relaxed, flowing easilly. Available on taobao for 200$ through buytome, all fees included. Cheap enough i might try it very soon.

 But in the mean time, my breeze with crysteks sound damn good with great recordings, for instance the whole Wynton Marsalys collection. Awesomely deep bass, you can hear very clearly low frequency tapping on the stage you often have on live jazz recording. I never heard this tapping so clearly before the crysteks. Gained some depth as well. It is less forgiving than before with poor recordings.

I use a qlshifi (that ddc's brand) power bar for my audio gear. It works well i.e. without any side effect that i can tell, and i am very difficult with those. It is a passive design without any discrete component. Perhaps they use what they call liquid metal filtering... Maybe that is just a very poor translation and it has nothing to do with liquid metal (mercury?). They will have the description of that new ddc translated because the rest of their stuff has sort of proper english descriptions.

I will try it or the f-1 or both next month. Sell my modded breeze if i get an upgrade with either one.


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> Well John Darko and Srajan Ebaen - certainly agree with me.  And they have heard more totl DAC's then you, me and @Superdad combined.  From SPDIF, USB and i2s.
> 
> Maybe you missed this I posted from John Darko's review of his current #1 DAC the Aqua HiFi La Scala MK2:
> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/03/aqua-hifi-la-scala-mkii-dac-review/
> ...


 
  
 The La Scala also has an I2S input, which you are constantly defending on other DACs that don't include it.


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Didn't even have to try hard to hear a difference honestly, the XU208 is great~


 

 Wait until it has a few hundred hours on it - it gets much better!


----------



## onlythat

wushuliu said:


> So far I have found the F-1 to be neutral in presentation. Someone mentioned 'solid state' as a description and I have not noticed that myself. IMO the F-1 brings out the sonic attributes of the dac chip without getting in the way.


 

 I was only searching for the words to make a 'relative' tonal comparison with my long-term DDC the PUC 2 Lite which, after 200 hours of break-in with the F-1, still sounds distinctly somewhat 'warmer' in presentation by comparison.  This is very readily apparent with voices on TV shows. I was watching HBO's Silicon Valley the other night and switched DDCs several times during the episode (streamed via HBO GO on my Mac mini).
  
  Each time we switched to the F-1 the voices became a little clearer and 'brighter' in tone.  The PUC seems to either be adding a slight bit of warmth to things/fuzz or what have you-- but I do still feel the PUC seems more 'tubey' in its presentation every time I put it head to head with the F-1 (which I have only had a chance to do briefly as yet).
  
  I have yet to actually undertake a real head to head comparison with more wide-ranging music (as there hasn't been time yet in my personal life these past couple weeks), but that 'tonal signature' is so obvious to me I could tell it blind in a comparison.  My girlfriend actually DID that comparison for us; she left the room to get some water and I switched the two and when she came back she said 'sounds a bit clearer or something; whadya do?"  I had changed to the F-1 from the PUC.
  
  So this is NOT a judgment as to which is "better" or more "musical" etc.  Repeat: NOT a judgment.   I'll leave that for some future time and it will only be relevant, whatever I say, to ME and my personal preferences.  But all I will say is there is a clear tonal difference between the two and the PUC sounds a bit more Audio Research and the F-1 sounds a bit more Krell.  
  
 Now-- as to which one is 'correct'-- well, Harry Pearson isn't around to tell us 
  
  
 PS-- I actually preferred the F-1's presentation of HBO's 'Silicon Valley'


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> The La Scala also has an I2S input, which you are constantly defending on other DACs that don't include it.


 

 THAT"S MY POINT!!!! Geesh!  Both Darko and Srajan used SPDIF to review it!  NOT i2s!  Do you think they don't know the difference between the two?
 And well USB was a second cousin.
  
 And what about the State of the Art Chord DAVE - $13,300 Reference statement DAC??? Huh?  Let me repeat for the 1000th time - NO i2s period.  But two SPDIF Coax BNC's.  SOTA sound.
  
  

  

  
 And the Schiit Yggie as well

  
 Merging Tech AES67 NADAC - $8900. NO i2s or USB!  But SPDIF is there:

  
  
 Yes some DAC's have i2s - the ones that make the biggest deal about it are the mid-fi $400 - $800 ones out of China. 
  
 Your mid-fi $500 Sabre DAC has i2s - well hurray for you.  Now put down the i2s cool-aid cup and get over it.
  
 SPDIF coax is on every major high end DAC and will be for the foreseeable future.  And it sounds freaking awesome  - get over that as well.
  
 Now some folks can talk all day about their Vaporware replacement- that's backburnered for the indefinite future - does me absolutely no good.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> I was only searching for the words to make a 'relative' tonal comparison with my long-term DDC the PUC 2 Lite which, after 200 hours of break-in with the F'1, still sounds distinctly somewhat 'warmer' in presentation by comparison.  *This is very readily apparent with voices on TV shows. I was watching HBO's Silicon Valley the other night and switched DDCs several times during the episode (streamed via HBO GO on my Mac mini).*


 
 Dude TV shows to review a DDC?  Really - you lost any credibility with me.  What next "I ran my AM tuner - listening to Rush Limbaugh on 550AM and he sounds nasal"
  
 If HP had read what you just wrote in seriousness - he would roll on the floor laughing.


----------



## onlythat

Rb-- did you miss the part where i said it wasn't a review? Just again, a tonal difference!!!  That's it.  I'm not able to do any extended comparing time-wise as yet, but there is a tonal difference that's apparent to me with voices played through them on a streamed TV show. It's quite apparent actually. There is no 'good' or 'bad' -- just reporting a tonal difference. 
  
 Jeez-- that guy dismissed the Startech LAN in a single track!  Go after him


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Rb-- did you miss the part where i said it wasn't a review? Just again, a tonal difference!!!


 
 Just by writing a review (with comparisons to Krell and AR no less), then saying it's not a review - doesn't get you off the hook.  You have lost all credibility - review or not.
  
 I mean really folks where have we strayed!?
  
 Next critcal listening non-review will be done with the music playing down stairs and me in the upstairs shower - water full on so I can get the nuances (isn't that what your wrote about before 'nuances').  As long as the shampoo stays out of my ears.
  
 BTW How were the commercials - more annoying with the F-1 or the PUC2?  I really got to know.


----------



## onlythat

Okay; there were no tonal differences apparent to me.  Both sounded precisely the same with any of the few classical music tracks I've played thus far through them and precisely the same with any and all TV shows and/or commercials. 
  
  
 And I further renounce hereby and forthwith any and all listening skills/comparative abilities I may have acquired in 30 years of high end audio.  I now spin around thrice-- and all is reset and null. 
  
 I sincerely hope that fixes it  If not-- whadya gonna do?
  
  
  
  
 Also and more sadly, I was trying to be helpful to those head-fires considering various DDCs as even limited comparisons can be useful if one particular quality or set thereof stands out relative to another quality or set thereof when comparing two components.  Here, there is to me a real difference tonally.  If it's that apparent to me on the comparison, why be angry at me for pointing it out?  It's not like I feel it's a subtle thing that needs hundreds of tracks with 20 genres to discover. It's obvious to me. It's not even a bad thing. Just an observation.  I don't doubt yours; why doubt mine in my system?  Maybe it even speaks well of my hearing that I can pick it out so easily eh? Maybe you should respect me again for it 
  
  
 PS- I do really wish you hammered the single track guy with the Startech like this.  If ya ask me, he got off easy!


----------



## wushuliu

Lol. Chill out guys. It's only audio.
  
 I ordered an Intona. After that I'm done. All this DAC tech is moving too fast for me!


----------



## onlythat

wushuliu said:


> Lol. Chill out guys. It's only audio.
> 
> I ordered an Intona. After that I'm done. All this DAC tech is moving too fast for me!


 

 Only audio?  ONLY AUDIO????!!!!    You take that back right now!!!!  Right now, Mister!  You hear me!!???


----------



## wushuliu

Is there anyway to play with F1 ASIO settings, buffers, etc? I use Jplay for PC playback and can use Kernel Streaming or ASIO. ASIO I think sounds better.


----------



## auvgeek

freda said:


> But in the mean time, my breeze with crysteks sound damn good with great recordings, for instance the whole Wynton Marsalys collection. Awesomely deep bass, you can hear very clearly low frequency tapping on the stage you often have on live jazz recording. I never heard this tapping so clearly before the crysteks. Gained some depth as well. It is less forgiving than before with poor recordings.
> 
> I will try it or the f-1 or both next month. Sell my modded breeze if i get an upgrade with either one.


 
 My Breeze with Crysteks is awesome, and agree that the deep bass is where I heard the most difference. 
  
 So please let me know how it sounds compared to the F-1, if you go that route!


----------



## wushuliu

Oh man, so up til now I'd been using the F1 KS (Kernel Streaming) mode with Jplay. I just switched to the ASIO and it so much better! Opened up completely. Don't know if it's my jplay settings or if the F1 is optimized for ASIO but I obviously was not hearing its full potential. This thing is awesome. Best bang for the buck accessory I've ever had (I'm cheap so not saying much).


----------



## onlythat

wushuliu said:


> Oh man, so up til now I'd been using the F1 KS (Kernel Streaming) mode with Jplay. I just switched to the ASIO and it so much better! Opened up completely. Don't know if it's my jplay settings or if the F1 is optimized for ASIO but I obviously was not hearing its full potential. This thing is awesome. Best bang for the buck accessory I've ever had (I'm cheap so not saying much).


 

 You mean you heard a difference just that quickly?!  
  
  
 You mean just by switching to ASIO; just like that you can hear differences ?!  Instantly !!??   Without several hundred hours of in-depth comparison?  
  
 Sounds suspect to me but I'm gonna go ahead and believe you on this one just this once


----------



## wushuliu

onlythat said:


> You mean you heard a difference just that quickly?!
> 
> 
> You mean just by switching to ASIO; just like that you can hear differences ?!  Instantly !!??   Without several hundred hours of in-depth comparison?
> ...


 




  
  
 The thorough part of me wants to switch back to usb and compare asio that way. Maybe tomorrow. I've been using KS for so long I didn't think to try asio sooner.


----------



## MINORISUKE

Comment from Leter (Singxer, the manufacturer of F-1 and SU-1):
 Related to the post yesterday, I asked him about the isolation.
  


> the F-1 and SU-1 (include Berkely Alpha, tanly and hydra-z) also use a galvanic isolation.
> 
> the ground is isolation.the isolation voltage more than  2kV.
> yes,the USB signal isolation is very diffcult.
> so all of them used I2S or SPDIF signal isolation.and used a cpld or fpga to shaping the Signal.


----------



## rw35

onlythat said:


> Jeez-- that guy dismissed the Startech LAN in a single track!  Go after him


 
  
 LOL
  
 I didn't diss it, I just prefer the Intona in my setup, that's a very different scenario.
  
 I didn't get 'hit in the face' with an obvious improvement over the Intona, so I removed it. I obviously didn't give it time to improve but I'm in love with how my system sounds right now so I'm not under pressure to improve it.
  
 If I could have I'd have got an LPS for it, which would no doubt raise its performance no end... but in the EU we have distance selling rules that enable return for full refund within a set timeframe so I didn't have the time to do that experiment. I didn't want to be stuck with it in case it didn't improve.
  
 My gut feeling is that I introduced an SMPS into my digital chain and that affected something negatively.
  
 rb was 'hit in the face' with his but he wasn't comparing it to an Intona (which could just as easily not have worked for him)
  
 I'm expecting another 'whoaaa' post from rb when he puts his on LPS.
  
 A good mantra might be "try to remove all SMPS from the digital chain", it seems to have worked for me, even my LAN Fibre Media Converter at the Aurender end is on an exotic LPS.


----------



## abartels

roger7 said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Well Chord, Aqua HiFi, Merging Technology, Schiit, TotalDAC and just about every other high end DAC builder disagree with you and @Superdad
> ...


 
  
 Totally agree, it's all because of compatibility, and NO standard for (external) I2S, which probably never will implemented...
  
  
 Btw, @rb2013 , it has 10 R-Cores


----------



## abartels

freda said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for clarifying to us (eh, the others, I won't use this device since I prefer low computing>direct I2S out>direct coupling to dac)
> ...


 
  
*Thanks for sharing!!*
  
*I'm 100% sure there are many Audio-GD Master 7 owners who aren't aware of the need of setting M7 as slave in order to take full advantage of better clocks in external DDC !!!*


----------



## abartels

wushuliu said:


> Lol. Chill out guys. *It's only audio*.
> 
> I ordered an Intona. After that I'm done. All this DAC tech is moving too fast for me!


 
  
  
 Excuse me??????? is there life without our hobby?!?!?!?!?!?!?


----------



## rw35

wushuliu said:


> Lol. Chill out guys. It's only audio.
> 
> I ordered an Intona. After that I'm done. All this DAC tech is moving too fast for me!


 

 I hope you got the Industrial version and that it works well for you, lots of people say it has been one of their best upgrade/cost purchases.
  
 I power my Intona via a split cable so I can feed it via LPS instead of it drawing current from the source component.


----------



## rw35

abartels said:


> Excuse me??????? is there life without our hobby?!?!?!?!?!?!?


 

 Yeah, there are restaurants, pubs, girls and bicycles... but true, life would be crap with a crap sound system (after a ride of any kind).


----------



## abartels

rw35 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Excuse me??????? is there life without our hobby?!?!?!?!?!?!?
> ...


 
  
 Hahahahahahaha, and, as you just proved, our hobby can deliver us a lot of fun


----------



## FredA

auvgeek said:


> My Breeze with Crysteks is awesome, and agree that the deep bass is where I heard the most difference.
> 
> So please let me know how it sounds compared to the F-1, if you go that route!




I will for sure.


----------



## KEGGER

abartels said:


> kegger said:
> 
> 
> > hugoboss said:
> ...


 
  
 Nice,
  
 Almost any of the "vintage" hermetically sealed glass bead end metal body PIO caps are exceptional,
 I have many different brands and sizes here, I use a lot for bypass caps as well as for coupling duties.
 (speaker xovers are great places for them as well)  
  
 Cheers,
 Keg


----------



## FredA

rw35 said:


> Yeah, there are restaurants, pubs, girls and bicycles... but true, life would be crap with a crap sound system (after a ride of any kind).




I could not agree more. A great sounding system is like oxygen to me When i am back from a vacation, i can't have enough of it. And it sounds so good after after missing it.


----------



## FredA

abartels said:


> *Thanks for sharing!!*
> 
> *I'm 100% sure there are many Audio-GD Master 7 owners who aren't aware of the need of setting M7 as slave in order to take full advantage of better clocks in external DDC !!!*




My pleasure. I think that the m7, given a perfectly matched dcc and perfect noise isolation, can be absolutely perfect. I am 99.9% there. Whoever owns one and has never open it to see the contents in person misses something. It's really beautiful. Very well made. I really love all the audio-gd gears i ever bought ( m7, nfb-5, nfb8, nfb12, di2014). Great reliability. The only complaint one could have (besides the heat and the weight) are the aluminum is not very resistant to scratches and it misses on user interface refinement: i am refering to the sounds you hear when switching inputs and stuff like that. But the point is those machines are about optimizing sound quality. And i totally agree to that being the primary objective. I don't want an idiot- proof system, i want the best sounding one for my money, Period.

I my current setup, i have absolutely no capacitor in the signal path, not even in the speakers. The gallo 3.1 uses a transfo to prevent the lower frequencies from entering the tweeter. And there is nohing to join the woofer with the mid cones. Just pefectly matched drivers. I like a system wiithout coloration. Just the plain truth. I have 3 class d power amplifiers i can switch between and i have settled on the dc-coupled one 3 months ago. I also found the least colored diy wire to make my own interconnects. How about 80$ for a perfect signal interconnect! Made a pair for a friend at the office. I don't know how many he bought before this one. But now he knows he wont have to think about interconnects anymore. Same for me. 

I still concentrate on the ddc part. It's the toughest to perfect but it pays off greatly. The transport is the most important component because it is almost impossible to eliminate all the jitter in the dac itself. Passed the dac, it's just too late, the signal is what it is and can only be put bandaids and degrade.


----------



## abartels

freda said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > *Thanks for sharing!!*
> ...


 
 Interesting set! About M7, are you sure there are no caps in signal path? Most R2R's have DC offset and need decoupling.
  
 DDC subject is very hot indeed, as is the source. Independent of which kind of audio transport protocol you use (spdif or i2s) I think it is wise to avoid USB, but that's my 2 cents...
 Could be great to transport data directly from source (PC / MAC / RPI) over Ethernet to Ethernet receiving device, DDC with Ethernet INPUT, and spdif / I2S output.


----------



## FredA

Well





abartels said:


> Interesting set! About M7, are you sure there are no caps in signal path? Most R2R's have DC offset and need decoupling.
> 
> DDC subject is very hot indeed, as is the source. Independent of which kind of audio transport protocol you use (spdif or i2s) I think it is wise to avoid USB, but that's my 2 cents...
> Could be great to transport data directly from source (PC / MAC / RPI) over Ethernet to Ethernet receiving device, DDC with Ethernet INPUT, and spdif / I2S output.




Audio-gd specs no capacitor in their signal path. In my setup, the combination of the pre-amp (a master-1 i forgot to mention in my gear list) gives a dc offset of around 1-2 mV. Combined to the power amp (dc-coupled), it gives around 45 mV at the speakers, which can't be harmful to the gallo 3.1.

You see, the vast majority of integrated and power amp, including audio-gd, features dc decoupling, using no capacitors but rather servo control for audio-gd.

My ideal transport would upload the whole track before playing it from memory. Although i might be naive thinking it would be best, but that would be my approach. I would use single thread code to garantee timing. I would use ethernet to garantee fast transfer of huge files. Or usb3 or thunderbolt.

The biggest issue with this approach would be the delay caused by upsampling if you are using any with your software player. If you need to send data during playback, it makes the design a lot more complex.


----------



## Albrecht

Thanks for that very interesting take. 

I can't wait to try my F-1 

I just am running in a microRendu right now, - so it'll be interesting to hear.....


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Okay; there were no tonal differences apparent to me.  Both sounded precisely the same with any of the few classical music tracks I've played thus far through them and precisely the same with any and all TV shows and/or commercials.
> 
> 
> And I further renounce hereby and forthwith any and all listening skills/comparative abilities I may have acquired in 30 years of high end audio.  I now spin around thrice-- and all is reset and null.
> ...


 

 Well at least he used music.  I've heard a lot of ridiculus things - but using TV for a critcal audio comparison - that one takes the cake.
  
 What was really interesting from your using TV cable dialogue to compare audio DDC's - is the your assigning one a 'Krell' like solid state nature and the other a 'Acoustic Research' tube like quality.
  
 Well I experimented last night  - the 'in the shower' mode revealed added layers of bass response for the F-1- as I could see the puddle of water at my feet vibrating more then with the PUC2.  Not declaring any winner - but i had more soap bubbles with the F-1 and they were better defined.  The PUC2 were flatter bubbles.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Oh man, so up til now I'd been using the F1 KS (Kernel Streaming) mode with Jplay. I just switched to the ASIO and it so much better! Opened up completely. Don't know if it's my jplay settings or if the F1 is optimized for ASIO but I obviously was not hearing its full potential. This thing is awesome. Best bang for the buck accessory I've ever had (I'm cheap so not saying much).


 

 Cheers to that!


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> You mean you heard a difference just that quickly?!
> 
> 
> You mean just by switching to ASIO; just like that you can hear differences ?!  Instantly !!??   Without several hundred hours of in-depth comparison?
> ...


 

 How about on TV commercials? The true test in audio now. Would you rate the annoyance factor a 9+ or a 10-?
 Would you say on the Tide commercials more 'Krell' or more 'AR'?


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> LOL
> 
> I didn't diss it, I just prefer the Intona in my setup, that's a very different scenario.
> 
> ...


 

 +1 Well that is fair enough.  And you are right - just using a LPS on one side made a very significant performance improvement.  I waiting for the upcoming JCAT and Uptone USB galvan isolation devices.  JCAT makes some really nice stuff- pricey but very good.
  
 But this post has me curious - if the F-1 already has GI - why should the Intona or the Startech USB2G4LEXT2 make any difference?
  
 5/11/16 at 9:35pm



 
 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/37/100x100px-LS-3744bdf3_avatar-120-10.jpg[/img]
 
MINORISUKE




 
*online*
 
133 Posts. Joined 1/2015
Location: DE
 


  Comment from Leter (Singxer, the manufacturer of F-1 and SU-1):
 Related to the post yesterday, I asked him about the isolation.
  


> the F-1 and SU-1 (include Berkely Alpha, tanly and hydra-z) also use a galvanic isolation.
> 
> the ground is isolation.the isolation voltage more than  2kV.
> yes,the USB signal isolation is very diffcult.
> so all of them used I2S or SPDIF signal isolation.and used a cpld or fpga to shaping the Signal.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Totally agree, it's all because of compatibility, and NO standard for (external) I2S, which probably never will implemented...
> 
> 
> Btw, @rb2013 , it has 10 R-Cores


 

 It gets my vote as the most beautiful DAC ever - with the cover off.  Love all those copper tops - I stand corrected!
  
 My point was that SPDIF is not some horrid scheme - does it, like USB have some flaws?  Yes!  Neither were designed for audio.
  
 But then i2s has it's issues as well, as you mention.  And from what I read maybe AOIP as well - in terms of clock latency.
  
 But all can be made to produce excellent sound - with extreme effort.


----------



## onlythat

rb2013 said:


> How about on TV commercials? The true test in audio now. Would you rate the annoyance factor a 9+ or a 10-?
> Would say on the Tide commercials more 'Krell' or more 'AR'?


 

 Look what I found!!!    It's right over here!  http://hometheaterreview.com
  
 They use DIALOGUE to review TV's and stuff!  
  
 Get 'em Rb!  This ought be goooood.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Look what I found!!!    It's right over here!  http://hometheaterreview.com
> 
> They use DIALOGUE to review TV's and stuff!
> 
> Get 'em Rb!  This ought be goooood.


 
 Duh!  'home theater review'  the same guys who panned the Maggies running them flat against the wall, on each side of their flat screen.




  
 Here is the operative statement:


> They use DIALOGUE to review *TV's* and stuff!


 
  
 We're talking two channel stereo - not 5 channel surround sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But use your AM radio for all I care - your credibility is zero with me...


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Totally agree, it's all because of compatibility, and NO standard for (external) I2S, which probably never will implemented...
> ...


 
 Thanks for the compliments


----------



## onlythat

rb2013 said:


> Duh!  'home theater review'  the same guys who panned the Maggies running them flat against the wall, on each side of their flat screen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 In the limited time I've had to listen following its 200 hour break-in, (and a few hours listening at the 180 hour mark),  thus far the PUC certainly has not been 'destroyed' by the F-1 either with Horowitz Plays Mozart or with Mozart for your Growing Baby or with annoying TV commercials about Mozart.  
  
 The two have merely demonstrated very obvious tonal differences and some sound staging differences and the F-1 has a bit more detail.  This of course, I'm afraid, renders your credibility suspect with me  (One track Startech LAN guy didn't help matters). 
  
 I'll give 'er another 100 hours and some Brill Creme commercials...
  
  
  
 Why you couldn't be a bit more civil to me for offering some simple preliminary tonal observations based on switched off comparisons with a device I know extremely well sonically -- well-- that escapes me


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> In the limited time I've had to listen following its 200 hour break-in, (and a few hours listening at the 180 hour mark),  thus far the PUC certainly has not been 'destroyed' by the F-1 either with Horowitz Plays Mozart or with Mozart for your Growing Baby or with annoying TV commercials about Mozart.
> 
> The two have merely demonstrated very obvious tonal differences and some sound staging differences and the F-1 has a bit more detail.  This of course, I'm afraid, renders your credibility suspect with me  (One track Startech LAN guy didn't help matters).
> 
> I'll give 'er another 100 hours and some Brill Creme commercials...


 

 Try the shower test...I'm sure the F-1's bubbles will sway you...to bad the F-1 won't work in your car - you could compare it on the way to work. 
 Better right under your local airport's runway...like I need you to approve of my credibility...thanks for playing...


----------



## KEGGER

RB, as much as I respect your opinions and relays of what you hear and think.
  
 Others should be treated the same,
  
 onlythat is not saying that 1 device is better than the other, just they sound different to him,
 In his system and his ears the F-1 is more detailed than the PUC, that's pretty much all I take away from his description,
  
 Again not saying 1 is better or worse or bad, just a difference, and someone "could" end up prefering 1 over the other to there liking.


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> RB, as much as I respect your opinions and relays of what you hear and think.
> 
> Others should be treated the same,
> 
> ...


 

 That is fair enough - and this is a free country (somewhat), so you or anyone can read what he posts and take it as gospel or with a grain of salt...that's your choice.  I do give him credit - at least he HAS it - before commenting.  How many don't and pan the F-1, some just because it has an SPDIF connection (it does do i2s as well).
  
 But for me, and I speak only for me, as an admitted insane audio nut (see my avatar) - using TV dialogue to review two very good audio devices (and one track of classical) is not just suspect - but worthless to me.  Then to post that comparison with references to the legendary Harry Pearson is asinine.
  
 Sorry I call BS when I see it.  Don't really care if you like it or not.
  
 At any given moment this thread has between 24-35 viewers, when I'm posting.  Go to @abartels thread, or Gino's or...nada.  So like my style or hate it - certainly challenge me - fine.
  
 Say the F-1 sucks, or that SPDIF sucks, or that the GB LAN USB sucks (after one song) - no worries.  What this thread is about.
  
 But just don't blow smoke up my ... and expect me to be fine with it.


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> if the F-1 already has GI - why should the Intona or the Startech USB2G4LEXT2 make any difference?


 
  
 Well there you go... another example of us all thinking we've finally got this digital stuff sussed and then finding out there's probably something else in addition to it.
  
 You are right that if GI=GI then only one instance of it should be required. Must be something else happening that's improving the signal as well?
  
 PS just for sanity... the 1 track  used on the Startech is one I know inside out, so it's easy for me to spot the presentation variations. (LOL someone one here is very keen to have the heat taken off them and aimed at me)
  
 PPS: The track is 'Level 42 Children Say', it's by no means the best recording but it has multiple layering over a solid groove... a track that great systems can throw a very nice performance from and one that crap systems probably won't make a very good job of.
  
 rb... get that LPS on I'm waiting for your reaction, you know it makes sense = LPS's rock!


----------



## rb2013

Here is some perspective - when I originally started the Gustard U12 thread - I received the same -'it sucks' 'you're just hyping it' comments - but as folks actually tried it and liked it better then what they had - it got a strong following.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip
  
 Then I came on this Melodious MX-U8 and it was better for me - so I posted about it.  The Gustard U12 lovers went berserk (well a few - esp the ones who had modded it), more derision and flames, but again for those who tried it many liked it.  Stereotimes even wrote about the thread:
  
 http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
  
 Then after having some reliability issues with the Melodious - the Breeze came along!
 Now folks were really getting pissed at me - 'now you're hyping something else'  But sorry I call it as I see it.
 Once again a few tried it and loved it!  Even a few of my most severe critics - some even modding theirs.  It got a cult following, and still does.
  
 Along came the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a - and I tried it - best yet!  And no need for heroic clock mods - as it already had the NDK SD clocks.
 And now the wash, rinse, repeat process began again.  Tried the PUC2 Lite and it was a close draw - as I reported. More folks up in arms.
 But I stuck to my guns - my ears don't lie.  Trying to put all this in some kind of ranking and order I listed what I had heard and ranked them.  The flame attacks became almost unbearable - talk about it just being audio!   Here I was spending my time and money to try all these different devices and mods and getting abused for it!  But I persevered...
  
 Well that thread kind of hit a wall and became almost exclusively a Intona thread (FredA and Bummer) - even though there already was an Intona thread (not many folks interested) so these folks hijacked the Gustard thread.  I left it - nothing much new in XMOS being discussed.  It had over 300,000 views when it was shut down.
  
 But my search was not over - never will be. I came across the XU208 and the F-1 and I began this thread.  And I was excited - it blew all others before out of the water!  Including the PUC2 Lite and the Pro3a.
 But of course the skepticism and derision continued...but as before a few tried it and loved it.  So that is where we are today...and it continues:
  
 Here are my rankings and ratings and I'm sticking to them:
Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - like when you see charts with 1990 dollars - or what ever reference point is chosen - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
 
Here would be my current ranking and ratings obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned all these for an extended period of time:
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCi/Pur2/GB Lan   190   $180+$150+$250 +$200+$100+$100+$479
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2  170   $180 +$150 +$250 +$200 +$100 + $100
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen               135   $481 + $150 + $250 + Regen $175
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                     130   $180 + $150 + $250
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2   125   $59 + $250 +Recovery $200 + iPur2 $100
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                         110    $481
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                  109  Du modded $208 + CT GE $250
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                     108   DU $168 + CT GE $250
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                             100   $168
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                95   $148
Hydra Z with LPS                                                  92   Z $700 + $150 TeraDak DC30W
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                           85   $260
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                        81   $247
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                  76   $175
Gustard U12 stock                                                 72   $160
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                    65   $479
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                    65   $165
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                             60  EVO $600 + Acopian LPS $280
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                       50  $495
M2Tech Hiface                                                       40  $149
 
Now as I have said before any of these newcomers that sound better - do not suddenly make the previous favorites sound worse.  They continue to sound just as good, even when something better comes along.  So I am not recommending anyone purchase any of these or anything I post about - just reporting what my experienced ears hear.
 
So we push forward despite all...
Cheers!





PS On request I've added approx prices when new.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Well there you go... another example of us all thinking we've finally got this digital stuff sussed and then finding out there's probably something else in addition to it.
> 
> You are right that if GI=GI then only one instance of it should be required. Must be something else happening that's improving the signal as well?
> 
> ...


 

 Well I do have one favorite track as well - I use to calibrate for further listening.  It has some very subtle undertones and very hard to reproduce micro-vibrations. 
  
 But it's a very sophicicated newer recording - almost Hi Res in depth.
  
 We will see what comes!
  
 And the Mutec and Pro4a in the wings - should be an interesting June.


----------



## Albrecht

+1


----------



## mourip

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Here are my rankings and ratings and I'm sticking to them:
> Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - like when you see charts with 1990 dollars - or what ever reference point is chosen - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for this. It is a big help. You have definitely taken one for the Team!
  
 I wonder if you could also consider adding approximate dollar amounts for each stack? I t would help some of us figure our "bang for the buck" compared to absolute audio value. By the time you have added some of those better cables and USB enhancers the total must be a multiple of the stock F-1.
  
 I would also be interested in seeing how the F-1 rated when just using USB power and vanilla cables, whatever cables you used to give the Breeze the benchmark 100.  And perhaps the F-1 with Regen powered by LPS. More data points for those of us on a budget!
  
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Thanks for this. It is a big help. You have definitely taken one for the Team!
> 
> I wonder if you could also consider adding approximate dollar amounts for each stack? I t would help some of us figure our "bang for the buck" compared to absolute audio value. By the time you have added some of those better cables and USB enhancers the total must be a multiple of the stock F-1.
> 
> ...


 

 Sure I'll update the original posts with the approx dollar figures - the finer rating on the myriad variations - I'll do as a separate post and thanks!
  
 And my apologies to everyone.  I've been doing this for 25 yrs - I lose my patience sometimes.
  
 PS I added the GB LAN USB to the F-1 ratings going from 170 to 190 (yes for me that big a jump)


----------



## auvgeek

rb2013 said:


> Sure I'll update the original posts with the approx dollar figures - the finer rating on the myriad variations - I'll do as a separate post


 
 These would both be extremely helpful. 
  
 I realize that sometimes people butt heads on here, but it's important to keep the big picture in mind and I'm certainly grateful for all your efforts.


----------



## rb2013

auvgeek said:


> These would both be extremely helpful.
> 
> I realize that sometimes people butt heads on here, but it's important to keep the big picture in mind and I'm certainly grateful for all your efforts.


 

 Yes I updated.
  
 I would say the addition of the following added this point level: So you can look back and see say what the Hydra Z my score with the GB LAN, etc...Now this is very general as only a real listening would be precise.  Sometimes synergies - sometimes negatives (Regen had the biggest variation - the Breeze and F-1 loved it, the Hydra Z nuetral (if I remember correctly), the Pro3a hated it (too edgy with the Regen).
  
 Keep in mind the PS on the AC units is fixed aside from the Cerious Graphene power chord - and see already the difference that made in my previous ratings:
  
 GB LAN USB Startech     +20
 W4S Recovery               +6 (add +2 if DC powered unit) The reason is the ability to utilize the on board ext DC powered low noise regulators to power the USB
 Regen                          +5 (add +2 if DC powered unit - but note on some DDC's it hurt the sound  - on the Pro3a -2 overall. So very device specific)
 iPurifer2                        +5
 DC iPur                          +5
 Curious 200mm Link        +2
  
 Assuming a few constants - LH Labs 2G Split USB cable, PPA V2 PCie/USb card, AC line filtering and isolation
  
 I hope that helps.


----------



## hugoboss

freda said:


> Same for me. With the audio-gd master-7, using i2s with pll off makes the ddc the master clock. Therefore, the sound is improved each time you improve your ddc and its connection.


 
  
 can you post a pic how is your jumper setting in your master 7?
 i want to know what is the jumper setting to use ddc clock as the master clock
  


abartels said:


> *Thanks for sharing!!*
> 
> *I'm 100% sure there are many Audio-GD Master 7 owners who aren't aware of the need of setting M7 as slave in order to take full advantage of better clocks in external DDC !!!*


 
  
 these post is interesting i own a new nos 7 audio gd almost like a master 7 but in better nos mode
 do you guys mean ppl setting is in the *Jumper1  PLLEN? *
*how about the atto setting  do you put jumper on or off?*
  

  
  
 do you mean that pllen jumper set to off (without putting jumper)
 make master 7 use the clock from the ddc like f1, make the sound better?
 i will try these and report asap
  
  
 these are my jumper setting now


----------



## FredA

hugoboss said:


> can you post a pic how is your jumper setting in your master 7?
> i want to know what is the jumper setting to use ddc clock as the master clock
> 
> 
> ...




I can't take a picture, i am not home. But to disable the pll on a master 7, you have to put a jumper on the PLLEN pins. Probably the same on the nos7. Otherwise the pll will reclock the signal. As for the rest, i have the defaults: max oversampling, dithering on, etc..


----------



## hugoboss

@FredA
  
 so my setting is correct then to put jumper on PLLEN, already use the f1 ddc as the master clock
  
 if u have time please share your jumper setting . just curious about that
 iam not aware about disable the master 7 clock for using ddc clock as the master clock, very good info
 thanks


----------



## FredA

hugoboss said:


> @FredA
> 
> 
> so my setting is correct then to put jumper on PLLEN, already use the f1 ddc as the master clock
> ...




Basically, you have to have an i2s connection and pll off. The rest does not matter. The dsp on the master-7 and nos7 is an in-phase processor. Having the pll off means it does not reclock. It takes the timing of the i2s signal as the reference.


----------



## KEGGER

Hey RB,
 (not going to quote, I think we can figure it out) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 First trust me when I say I understand how a frustration level can get to the best of us, over many things on forums.
 (been there done it many times, (no spring chicken here), whether my own posts or as moderator on another forum)
  
 And being a builder/designer of tube amps I have certainly seen my share of naysayers screaming from there couches.
 So I truly do get where your coming from. (I spend a lot of time evaluating builds and designs by listening an testing)
  
 I also agree with you, evaluating a high end piece of audio from a very narrow sample without vocals and an tv source
 is not what I would do or suggest, but if is someones normal listening criteria it will at least let them hear "differences".
  
 And like you said he did actually get the thing and use it before posting anything about, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 From an outsider on this forum I just ask if we can be a little more lenient and cordial when possible. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Again I'm with you, an wider range of music, and decent rez sources should be used to make "valuable" assessments.
 Myself female vocals are a first test I use whether something can stay or not, obviously along with quality instruments.
  
 I belong to a local audio group, about 300 members, it meets once a month at a members place.
 When I first started going, or audio shows it shocked me sometimes how different people reacted to the same system.
 (from the extreme of best they've heard to worst they've heard ON THE SAME SYSTEM, just wow sometimes there)
  
 Now I take everything with a giant grain of salt, and a lot more tolerant on difference of opinion, on everything in life. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 -----------------
  
 Trying to add something to the thread,
 One of my main test albums is Tracy Chapman, (Crossroads) Her vocals cover a pretty wide range, good music to boot.
 (Jacqui Naylor and Alison Krauss are 2 more of my favorite female vocals)
  
 Cheers man,
 Keg


----------



## KEGGER

rb2013 said:


> auvgeek said:
> 
> 
> > These would both be extremely helpful.
> ...


 
  
 This is good info, especially for me, as I'm still trying to figure my best bang for the buck power/tweaks as well.
 (my main system has been tweaked and prodded, but this computer setup deal is pretty new to me)
  
 Where might the Jitterbug fit in here?
  
 Are you still thinking of trying the Wyrd out?


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> Hey RB,
> (not going to quote, I think we can figure it out)
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for undertanding - well it started with OP on his putting down new music as 'produced' garbage,like TS - in a past post.  So he already had my irish up - I let that slide.  Then a veiled put down of music with bass and drums - I think Metallica he referenced - let that one slide too.
  
 Now I happen to like TS and think '1989' is excellent!  Well recorded, great lyrics, amazing vocals - won many Grammys.  I like Lana Del Rey - 'UltraViolence' also very well done.  Florence and the Machine - 'Lungs', 'Cerimonals', 'How Big, How Blue, How Beautiful' - all excellent.  Many other really good new artists.
  
 I like Tracy Chapman and was just listening to Alison Krauss last night.
  
 But I love classical and jazz too.  I don't put classical down as boring, trite, limited in range, etc..  I appreciate it as well.
 I love classic rock - you know the 70's stuff and new Alt bands like Seether and Brand New..what ever. 
  
 A very wide range of music - some with drums and some without.  I never judge people for their music - but listening to TV dialogue as a audio standard was a new on me.  Old HP must be rolling in his grave.
  
 I consider him a mentor of mine - miss you old chap!  And SeaCliff!
 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/business/harry-pearson-founder-of-absolute-sound-dies-at-77.html?_r=0
  
 When I evaluate stuff - I do it over a few days or weeks with a lot of listening.  For me that no problem as I listen most evenings 3-4 hours - reading.
  
 I will try and be a little more patient in the future.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## wushuliu

Lol. So at this point how many posters actually have an F-1 at this point? A hundred pages and I think only what six owners?
  
 RB, I have to admit, I have been trying to play catch up on all these spdif converters and so far it really does seem like you're one of the very few aggressively making the case for these products. Before this thread all I'd been reading about was usb stuff: regens, decrapifiers, ipurifiers, on and on. I was under the impression from all the coverage and reviews that that was the new frontier. Very little talk about spdif converters, so I didn't even bother looking until I came across this thread. Even the PUC2 has only one real 'audiophile' review and it looks you were the inspiration for that one. So there's a parallel development happening with these converters and it's being ignored. I have a feeling that's about to change...


----------



## hugoboss

record of selling at the chinese taobao online store
 su-1 = 7pcs
*f-1 = 30pcs*
 q-1 = 2pcs
 x-1 = 3pcs
*xmos procesor xu208 (in 50pcs quantity) = 4set
 xmos procesor xu208 (in 20pcs quantity) = 4set*
  
*look at the xmos xu 208 procesor sold in just one month so fast*
*now only two brand use xu -208 in their product singxer and melodius only. soon there will be more brand coming*
*the xu 208 bomb will be huge*


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> My point was that SPDIF is not some horrid scheme - does it, like USB have some flaws?  Yes!  Neither were designed for audio.


 
  
 What do you mean SPDIF was not designed for audio? It is literally designed as a digital audio interface. If they hadn't chosen to mix the clock and data together there wouldn't need to be so much effort to make it sound good.


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> This is good info, especially for me, as I'm still trying to figure my best bang for the buck power/tweaks as well.
> (my main system has been tweaked and prodded, but this computer setup deal is pretty new to me)
> 
> Where might the Jitterbug fit in here?
> ...


 

 Oh on the Jitterbug with using just one - +2 , as a modded VBUS blocker +3
  
 Yes on the Wryd  - but only as a possible low cost LPS


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Lol. So at this point how many posters actually have an F-1 at this point? A hundred pages and I think only what six owners?
> 
> RB, I have to admit, I have been trying to play catch up on all these spdif converters and so far it really does seem like you're one of the very few aggressively making the case for these products. Before this thread all I'd been reading about was usb stuff: regens, decrapifiers, ipurifiers, on and on. I was under the impression from all the coverage and reviews that that was the new frontier. Very little talk about spdif converters, so I didn't even bother looking until I came across this thread. Even the PUC2 has only one real 'audiophile' review and it looks you were the inspiration for that one. So there's a parallel development happening with these converters and it's being ignored. I have a feeling that's about to change...


 

 Well good point - these low cost Chinese companies, like Breeze Audio and Singxer are not big advertisers,  And there is a huge language barrier - most don't even have a website.  I credit the HiFiDunio website on turning me on to the Musiland 3.0 USB - that began to open my eyes.  I was an early poster there.
  
 https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/musiland-usb/
  
 This is underground audio - unlike the $5K ads in Absolute Sound - you have to work hard to find and buy.  I loved reading Harry Pearson in the early days, when The Absolute Sound took no advertising.

  
 HP was notorious for finding and reviewing low cost undiscovered jems.  It built TAS reputation - now a corp money machine -piece of ...
  
 Bless these brilliant Chinese folks who design and build this stuff at super low cost.
  
 I have to say I heard an Empirical OffRamp5 with turbo clocks and it was excellent.  And soon to have a Mutec mc-3+ smart clock usb, this is serious gear.  I do not expect the F-1 to match this $1000 box with the GB LAN USB in the chain.  But how about a dollar for dollar face-off?
  
 As I posted to my TV Dialogue reviewer friend  - how about a dollar for dollar match up? The $483 PUC Lite and a F-1 with a Recovery and iPur2?
  
 I mean isn't that as real world as it gets - for the same hard earned audio buck what SQ can you get?

 Well we'll see.  And I have a DIYinHK DXIO Pro4a coming - with a XU216!  Now that'll be interesting.  This is not over yet.
  
 I always wished for an early days The Absolute Sound - no advertising - sub only - no reviewer loaners. Everything bought.  Well that's what I try to do here - no financial ties or conflicts (notice how some manfacturers who post here always find critisms for others products - but the ones they make (two) or are associated with are stellar!  Well you have to pay the mortgage I guess).


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> record of selling at the chinese taobao online store
> su-1 = 7pcs
> *f-1 = 30pcs*
> q-1 = 2pcs
> ...


 

 Nice!   I only started this thread what like a two months ago - the word will spread.   Singxer needs to just sell them with a $9 case - the sales would double.  For many folks it's DIY
  
 PS That does not count the F-1's Shenzen has sold on Ebay - I bet another 50-60.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> What do you mean SPDIF was not designed for audio? It is literally designed as a digital audio interface. If they hadn't chosen to mix the clock and data together there wouldn't need to be so much effort to make it sound good.


 
 I read somewhere that the original protocol came from efforts to digitally transmit video audio - that was then adapted to 2 channel audio and released by Sony and Philips as an audio std - S/PDIF Sony-Philips-Digital-Interface-Format.  Funny the word 'Audio' was never used.  I guess it should be called S/PADIF.
 Regardless it's been and will the std for digital audio for the near future.
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF


> Applications[edit] *A common use for the S/PDIF interface* is to carry compressed digital audio for surround sound as defined by the standard *IEC 61937*.  This mode is used to *connect the output of a DVD player* or computer, via optical or coax, to a home-theatre amplifying receiver that supports *Dolby Digital or DTS**.* *Another common* use is to carry two channels of uncompressed digital audio from a CD player to an amplifying receiver.


 
 Notice the secondary use to carry two channels of uncompressed digital audio from a CD player...


----------



## rb2013

Ok thinking about this some more  The fact this TV dialogue reviewing fellow has challenged me from the start. 
  
 And the utter ridiculousness of his proposition of using TV dialogue to discern top audio gear and that ridiculousness.
  
 And many who have come to his defense  - and none who have agree at this ludicrous proposition.
  
 I have to think 'do I have the wrong audience?' Maybe I am wasting my time.
  
 I have to say yes to both  - so I will just end my posting here now.
  
 At least in this venue - maybe a curated thread on CA.
  
 See you all down the road...


----------



## Caper

?
  
 I can only speak for myself.
 I´m not a Hi-Fi guy really but really enjoyed this thread and taking baby steps in understanding Hi-Fi gear.
 Love listen to music after I upgraded my setup from using USB input on my amp/DAC.
 The F1 takes my listening to a new level.
 Cannot really discuss more than my ears tell me because all technical stuff sometimes confuses me.
  
 I don´t use TV shows when comparing though...even if my rig is a mediarig that play´s everything TV shows included.
 To be honest I think you overreact on that "TV dialogue" thing, nothing to be upset at?
 That was not a "review" but a quick reflection from the guy as I understand it.
 Tidal Hi-Fi streaming some good mastering from Boris Blank is what I most use when comparing.
  
 I bet I am one on this forum with least knowledge of Hi-Fi and I am sorry If you feel your time here is wasted.
 For me it´s been very interesting following this thread and by taking small steps I slowly learn.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> I have to say yes to both  - so I will just end my posting here now.
> 
> At least in this venue - maybe a curated thread on CA.
> 
> See you all down the road...


 
 I think the TV show thing is ridiculous, but I don't feel the need to address it in this thread or get in fights with people. I find it bizarre that this is the second DDC thread in a couple months that you've burnt to the ground after getting pissed at certain people and fighting them.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Ok thinking about this some more  The fact this TV dialogue reviewing fellow has challenged me from the start.
> And the utter ridiculousness of his proposition of using TV dialogue to discern top audio gear and that ridiculousness.
> And many who have come to his defense  - and none who have agree at this ludicrous proposition.
> I have to think 'do I have the wrong audience?' Maybe I am wasting my time.
> ...


 
  
 Hi !
 just to say that i am really sorry if you stop your very valuable contribution here
 I have learned so many things from your adivce and i am sincerely thankful indeed.
 I am also very sorry that for some people it is so difficult to stay on topic
 I would much prefer if these people had the kindness to expose their opinions in separate threads focusing the subject they care about.
 This is more than stealing a thread ... this is lack of respect for the Topic starter, especially when he/her puts so much passion in it.  
 I am really sorry to see very interesting discussions derailing.
 I ask you please to refrain from your sad decision and go on with your research and experimenting of such key devices for pc audio.
 I feel your disappointment but do not let them overcome.
 Thanks a lot again.
 Kind regards, gino


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> At least in this venue - maybe a curated thread on CA.
> 
> See you all down the road...


 
  
 You'll unlikely do much better on CA, there are some proper odd balls over there, these days no thread seems to stay on topic or positive for long, that's why I looked over here and found this masterpiece.
  
 In respect of using TV programmes to evaluate Hi-Fi gear, did that even need commenting on? I just ignored it... music is what you use, be it 1 track or 100.
  

  
 I'll be looking out for ya regardless.


----------



## lateboomer

Oh, please. This thread is too important to close it because of small difference of opinions. Rb your effort is much appreciated and please keep up the good work. Previously I said my F-1 lost out little bit to $20k cd player. I have since then found out the root cause and the solution is to further enhance the LPS connected to the Regen which provides direct power to F-1. So now I would say I will favor F-1 a bit more compared to the cd player in terms of soundstage size, transparency and smoother extension of micro details. So this thread is a stepping stone for me to enhance my hifi system to higher level.


----------



## abartels

ginetto61 said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok thinking about this some more  The fact this TV dialogue reviewing fellow has challenged me from the start.
> ...


 
  
 I feel kind of guilty not keeping my posts ON topic, I realized as I read this post.
 Just thought that info could be very useful to many of us and wanted to share.
 Even in my own thread I'm not always ON topic.
  
 My bad....
  
 Come on Bob, looking at all the info you, and others, published in this thread, very useful information, it's huge! Some posts are more interesting than others,
 but we have to look at it in a broader way. 90% (or even more) of the posts are useful and interesting, some of them aren't, so be it, that's how this kind of thread work.
  
  
 I can imagine you would love to see more people buying the stuff you investigated on, F1, USB extenders, just to see how they compare it with other stuff and read their reviews.
 This way the thread would look very different, and probably more interesting, but that's not the reality. Reality is that many of us don't have that kind of funds to spend, at least,
 not at the speed you spend it. Don't forget that a lot of thread followers are a little afraid of buying one of those devices and have at their minds that next week, or tomorrow,
 maybe there's another contender, a better device launched in this thread. Not all of us are familiar with buying and selling goods across the internet..... And, lots of thread followers
 can't buy new devices before selling "the old" ones first. That's a fact.
  
 Keeping this in mind you should know that your work DOES help A LOT thread followers who aren't in the (financial?) position to compare and investigate themselves!
  
 I would say, keep up the good work, have a good drink and keep on doing what you're doing best, exploring, investigating, comparing  and sharing!
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex
  
 Btw, I'm at work, NO drinks for me


----------



## ginetto61

lateboomer said:


> ...   Previously I said my F-1 lost out little bit to $20k cd player.
> I have since then found out the root cause and *the solution is to further enhance the LPS connected to the Regen *which provides direct power to F-1  ...


 
  
 Hi !
 I agree completely with the importance to go on with this very valuable thread.  The usb to spdif conversion is THE key topic in pc audio. 
 However, may i ask what are you using now as PS for the Regen ?
 Thanks a lot, gino


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> ...  SPDIF coax is on every major high end DAC and will be for the foreseeable future.  And it sounds freaking awesome  - get over that as well....


 
  
 Hi !  i have still a dream .. to live in a* BNC *world.
 I do not know why but i have a better feeling with BNC connection RCA for digital signals.
 The fact that is so rare also on TOTL units always puzzles me.  
 Structurally this connector concept is good in different executions* up to 12 Gbit/s.*  That's a lot.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## KEGGER

A thread with a 100 pages in it is "bound to wonder", have disagreements and the few headbutts there.
 It's just how there handled an flow that really matters in the grand scheme of things, it's life on the web.
  
 Maybe the thread has just run it's course? , but to me there was still valuable information being passed.
 (in the end off kilter stuff is just that, seen through an past over, don't let it stir the dander up to bad)
  
 I myself RB would ask that you stay and continue along your ways here, 
 You start threads that get people talking, thinking and collectively sharing, (yep with speed-bumps even)


----------



## hugoboss

rb2013 said:


> Ok thinking about this some more  The fact this TV dialogue reviewing fellow has challenged me from the start.
> 
> And the utter ridiculousness of his proposition of using TV dialogue to discern top audio gear and that ridiculousness.
> 
> ...


 

 dont end your post in this thread,
 for me you are the first tester , the most important informan in here, also i saw all your thread is like the most great information.
 no one ever have so many ddc to test and share the result.
 don't end just because someone not agree with your opinion.that's normal
 just keep continue . i think so many member here have great upgrade with F-1 including me.


----------



## mourip

rw35 said:


> You'll unlikely do much better on CA, there are some proper odd balls over there, these days no thread seems to stay on topic or positive for long, that's why I looked over here and found this masterpiece.


 
  
 +1
  
 CA is great but has lately become a very contentious place. There are several folks there who continuously derail and polarize threads. Too much thinking and not enough listening!
  
 Please keep this thread alive. Maybe just take a few days off?


----------



## lateboomer

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !
> I agree completely with the importance to go on with this very valuable thread.  The usb to spdif conversion is THE key topic in pc audio.
> However, may i ask what are you using now as PS for the Regen ?
> Thanks a lot, gino


 
 Well, the LPS I used for Regen is self-made one, nothing fancy about. Just that Rb posting about critical power transient and stability for source got us (me and my brother) thinking and try to improve it. But of course one day I am going to get a Paul hynes power supply or Regen uber power supply to compare to be sure. And I also cut one Regen away from the connection chain.


----------



## ginetto61

lateboomer said:


> Well, the LPS I used for Regen is self-made one, nothing fancy about.
> Just that Rb posting about critical power transient and stability for source got us (me and my brother) thinking and try to improve it.
> But of course one day I am going to get a Paul hynes power supply or Regen uber power supply to compare to be sure.
> And I also cut one Regen away from the connection chain.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting reply.   In my mind the Regen is an almost perfect device.  It only does not provide galvanic isolation from what i understand,
 The new model should do that.  Then it could very well be the one for all device.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## wushuliu

Yeah maybe take a few days break. I think this thread is pretty tame compared to most or else i wouldnt even be posting.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> I think the TV show thing is ridiculous, but I don't feel the need to address it in this thread or get in fights with people. I find it bizarre that this is the second DDC thread in a couple months that you've burnt to the ground after getting pissed at certain people and fighting them.


 

 Well thanks for that!  Finally an agreement.  No need to close the thread - just because I'm not here.  I got the ball rolling - now you'll can keep it going.  Am I sooo important that this thread can't exist without me?  Not at all!  The other DDC Gustard thread had hit a deadend - I left it - but it was the moderator who decided to close it.  I never requested that.  @abartels opened his and with in a few pages became a Raspberry Pi thread.  The XMOS DDC thing had become stale - until the XU208 arrived.
  
 Maybe I'm being petty - too myopic.  I have put up with being called a 'Hype' by Prot and some others (read what he says about me on Alex's DDC thread!  Really abusive), with Alex seeming to concur - at least not contradict him.  But that's just prot - so I take it as just him (he was banned from CA after all and even has a thread there named after him - quiet the honor - NOT).
  
 Here is how my TV dialogue friend started:
 post #1070 of 1593

5/1/16 at 7:44pm



 
 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/37/100x100px-LS-3744bdf3_avatar-120-10.jpg[/img]
 
onlythat





 
offline
 
35 Posts. Joined 4/2007
 


 

 Yup. For the uninitiated and the tragically unhip, that's a PUC 2 Lite on the down low and an F-1 riding it bareback.

 Ohhhhhhhh -- Child! IT'S ON like Donkey Kong up in here!!!!

 rb- your reputation has all come down to.....

 this





  
 I thought well OK - this guy must be a real audio guy and is calling my reputation out on his verdict...let's see?  Did I get into his grill over it - no.
 I did warn him to place some mylar under the F-1 while laying it on top of the PUC2 metal case - when powered up.  As there are exposed contacts on the bottom - that was the first sign he really didn't know what he was doing - but yet has the temerity to claim he is the arbiter of MY reputation.  But still I tried to help the guy.
  
 Then goes off on new popular music and music with drums and bass - music without 'nuance' or something like that is - just 'produced' whatever that means.  OK That's a bit offensive - but fine I guess - but I can tell he's not what I expected.  And certainly has no creed to judge on my reputation.
  
 Then the coupe de grace - the infamous TV dialogue review - non-review.  His non-review even nuancing the F-1 as solid state sounding (Krell like), and the PUC2 Lite tubeish (AR like).  Well fine if that's his judgement then OK - but he made it WITHOUT music!  How can you possibly judge this level of nuance by  watching 'Silicon Valley' on HBO (great show by the way).  At least 'Game of Thrones' has music in the background.  If it was some kind of live music, like KEXP, or PBS, or the ARTS channels have - fine.  Still hard to nuance with a high voltage flat screen in the mix - mine makes a low level buzzing (esp when the screen goes from black to white).
  
 Then calls my reputation suspect based on this!  Absurd.
  
 I call him out on it - and I get chastised - he gets defended here!
  
 My thinking is a curated thread on CA would be the solution - not my prefered route - but better then this BS.  Honest, well thought out opinions and reviews will be kept (even ones that disagree with me) - the silly and abusive stuff tossed.
  
 Problem solved.  I'll take a week off and see.  This really is time consuming and I have some major work projects coming up, that'll put the audio stuff on the back burner.
  
 Meanwhile - everyone should continue having fun posting here.


----------



## wushuliu

Another possible forum is the tirnahifi where sgbk aka gordon has his mqn thread. Very tolerant group who are on the frontier when it comes to audio mods etc.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Another possible forum is the tirnahifi where sgbk aka gordon has his mqn thread. Very tolerant group who are on the frontier when it comes to audio mods etc.


 

 Good thought  - I have been active on Audiogon in the distant past, but that has just died off.  AA- of course - better wear your flame suit - very narrow group. 
  
 As far as I can tell CA is the only one with the ability to open a curated thread.  Of course look at what happened to RE Shaman on his Recovery curated thread - man that got ugly!  He was a toasted crisp when they were done.  He went into witness protection - hiding out in Argentina.  When he deleted these silly posts  - the poster would go on all these other threads and flame him.
  
 Chris had to shut it anyway.
 I love his quote - paraphrasing like calm down folks 'We're not saving babies, or killing puppies here'
  
 Anyway this is a great thread - so carry on folks - still lot's of great information and opinions to share.


----------



## auvgeek

@rb2013 remember that for every person who posts in this thread, there are like 10-50 people (maybe more) who are reading it and very grateful for the information you're providing. Like Alex said, many people feel like they can't contribute because they just don't have the budget like you do. Personally, I owned a Gustard, and you got me turned onto the Breeze. I'll probably limit myself to one new DDC per year, but will hopefully make small improvement to the chain as a whole (Regen/LAN/Intona/etc). Your attempts to characterize quantitatively how much improvement each piece of the chain adds is incredibly valuable. It doesn't matter if critics say you're blowing things out of proportion—the rest of us need only hear two DDCs that you've ranked before we can get a sense of your relative rankings (assuming you're using a linear scale, which it seems you are).


----------



## vhsownsbeta

auvgeek said:


> @rb2013
> remember that for every person who posts in this thread, there are like 10-50 people (maybe more) who are reading it and very grateful for the information you're providing...




According to the eBay seller he has had a spike in demand for F-1 and there is currently a 1-2 week lead time before any new orders will ship...


----------



## panhead

auvgeek said:


> @rb2013 remember that for every person who posts in this thread, there are like 10-50 people (maybe more) who are reading it and very grateful for the information you're providing. Like Alex said, many people feel like they can't contribute because they just don't have the budget like you do. Personally, I owned a Gustard, and you got me turned onto the Breeze. I'll probably limit myself to one new DDC per year, but will hopefully make small improvement to the chain as a whole (Regen/LAN/Intona/etc). Your attempts to characterize quantitatively how much improvement each piece of the chain adds is incredibly valuable. It doesn't matter if critics say you're blowing things out of proportion—the rest of us need only hear two DDCs that you've ranked before we can get a sense of your relative rankings (assuming you're using a linear scale, which it seems you are).


 
 Add me to this list.   I have been following rb2013 since the Gustard days. Audiophilleo to   U10,  U12,  Melodious also thru 2 iterations and now the F1.    I have enjoyed the trip and cant wait for what is next!
  
  
 Have also been watching the Mutec USB but its hard for me to pull the trigger when these dont stay in my system very long.
  
 RB your efforts are MUCH apprecited!!!!!


----------



## Sanlitun

vhsownsbeta said:


> According to the eBay seller he has had a spike in demand for F-1 and there is currently a 1-2 week lead time before any new orders will ship...


 
  
 I bought mine on the 6th and have a tracking number, although I can not find anyplace that it actually tracks. I hope it has actually shipped.
  
 When I receive it I am planning to start off by doing a shoot out with my Audiophilleo in the same environment, and then changing up power and connections to see where that goes.


----------



## jfrocke

Where do I find Windows XP drivers for the F-1?  I just received mine and the driver that someone linked in this thread won't install on XP.


----------



## Currawong

vhsownsbeta said:


> auvgeek said:
> 
> 
> > @rb2013
> ...


 

 Far more people are reading these threads than posting in them. 
  
 Just to remind people: The trouble starts when people begin posting about each other, instead of about products.


----------



## Gordian

same thing here, I'm a big fan of your reviews rb2013


----------



## murphythecat

RB2013, please continue this amazing thread.
  
 you should ignore any negative comment. there are so many that do not participate in this thread but read your every move! please dont leave for a couple of negative comments.


----------



## Gordian

sanlitun said:


> I bought mine on the 6th and have a tracking number, although I can not find anyplace that it actually tracks. I hope it has actually shipped.
> 
> When I receive it I am planning to start off by doing a shoot out with my Audiophilleo in the same environment, and then changing up power and connections to see where that goes.


 
  
 Same issue for me, Xmos supposed to be shipped 1 week ago and still can't track it. I wonder if they did shipped it actually


----------



## sbgk

I got a shipping no a week before it was picked up, then it goes through HK customs before travel.


----------



## mourip

"Where do I find Windows XP drivers for the F-1?  I just received mine and the driver that someone linked in this thread won't install on XP."
  
  
 Gentle suggestion. Microsoft has reached end of life for XP and they not longer even provide security patches for it. It is wide open for hacking now. No more vulnerabilities will be addressed.
  
 It you have it connected to the Internet I would suggest at least upgrading to Windows 7.
  
 Best,
  
 Paul


----------



## jabbr

He ships alright.
Mine was trackable via Singapore Post the courier he used for my shipment or one of those general tracking sites.
Took 2 wks and 4 days to be delivered in the Netherlands, and I escaped customs thanks to Shenzhen.

The I2S is separately packed though, but I'm not interested in I2S so doesn't bother me.

Just be patient.


----------



## jabbr

This page has a link to the original drivers distributed for the F1.
  
 The page mentions XP needing drivers, but the drivers page doesn't mention anything about *not being *compatible with XP.
 It does mention needing to disable Driver Signature Verification on Windows 8.1 and Windows 10. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Cheers


----------



## jfrocke

I know, I work in IT so I understand the vuneralbilities.  It's just so much work to replace this PC (secondary, lightly used) that I have been in a holding pattern.  I will need to replace the machine as well as the OS and finding time is just my delay.


----------



## Sanlitun

jabbr said:


> This page has a link to the original drivers distributed for the F1.
> 
> The page mentions XP needing drivers, but the drivers page doesn't mention anything about *not being *compatible with XP.
> It does mention needing to disable Driver Signature Verification on Windows 8.1 and Windows 10.
> ...


 
  
 Can someone put the files up on Dropbox or some other source? I tried several times to get these from Baidu but the zip always has CRC errors.


----------



## wushuliu

sanlitun said:


> Can someone put the files up on Dropbox or some other source? I tried several times to get these from Baidu but the zip always has CRC errors.


 
  
 There's a link earlier in the thread from 'hugoboss' to download but you'll have to search...


----------



## Caper

sanlitun said:


> Can someone put the files up on Dropbox or some other source? I tried several times to get these from Baidu but the zip always has CRC errors.


 
 :-


----------



## juanitox

seing this thread since a few days , i would like to know who much of you use the I2S out of the F1 instead of the Spdif out ?  with my little experience with waveIO usb card , the  
 I2s ( isolated) output was the best by large margin vs spdif out .


----------



## mtoc

rb2013 said:


> ..I came across the XU208 and the F-1 and I began this thread..
> 
> Here are my rankings and ratings and I'm sticking to them:
> Singxer F-1 ...190
> ...


 
  
 Don't worry, just a little quote at first


----------



## juanitox

i have the Mutec mc3 usb with Sonore microrendu both on a DIY handmade power supply , when i will receive the F1 i will compare both and keep the winner , simple as that 
 it"s just another audiophile journey ,don't need to get nervous


----------



## ciphercomplete

Has anyone gotten their hands on the SU-1 yet?


----------



## somestranger26

juanitox said:


> seing this thread since a few days , i would like to know who much of you use the I2S out of the F1 instead of the Spdif out ?  with my little experience with waveIO usb card , the
> I2s ( isolated) output was the best by large margin vs spdif out .


 

 Pretty sure I'm the only one doing this, and I replaced the USB input on my DAC with the F1. At some point I will get get a second F1 for my other system and A/B against RCA. I don't think the difference was very large.


----------



## juanitox

in theory it should be as with i2S you bypass the Spdif cable and dac receiver and clocking.   it depends of the dac too..


----------



## taxiq

What is highest resolution track F-1 can handle?
  
 thx for the thread.


----------



## murphythecat

juanitox said:


> in theory it should be as with i2S you bypass the Spdif cable and dac receiver and clocking.   it depends of the dac too..


 
 very interested as we both use the same mosaic t dac.
 let me know if you find a solution or if you compare your mutec vs f1 for the Mosaic T dac!


----------



## jabbr

taxiq said:


> What is highest resolution track F-1 can handle?
> 
> thx for the thread.


 
PCM: 44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 / 176.4 / 192 / 352.8 / 384KHz (352.8 / 384KHz: I2S output only) 
DSD: 2.8 / 5.6MHz (DSD64 / DSD128): DoP and native, 11.2MHz (DSD256): native (S / PDIF output: DSD64 DoP only) 
bit length: up to 32-bit (I2S), the highest 24-bit (S / PDIF)


----------



## Sanlitun

caper said:


> :-


 
  
 Got it thanks!


----------



## MINORISUKE

jabbr said:


> PCM: 44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 / 176.4 / 192 / 352.8 / 384KHz (352.8 / 384KHz: I2S output only)
> DSD: 2.8 / 5.6MHz (DSD64 / DSD128): DoP and native, 11.2MHz (DSD256): native (S / PDIF output: DSD64 DoP only)
> bit length: up to 32-bit (I2S), the highest 24-bit (S / PDIF)


 

 11.2MHz(DSD256) also both native and DoP
 The specifications have been updated.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

Waiting for my F-1 from Shenzhenaudio which will be a I2S connection to my Audio GD NFB-10.33 to replace the stock USB-32 module, I hope the shipping will not take too long, got feedback that the supplier has some problems and the next batch is delayed to at least next week. Can't wait to try.


----------



## hugoboss

h1f1add1cted said:


> Waiting for my F-1 from Shenzhenaudio which will be a I2S connection to my Audio GD NFB-10.33 to replace the stock USB-32 module, I hope the shipping will not take too long, got feedback that the supplier has some problems and the next batch is delayed to at least next week. Can't wait to try.


 

 please post some picture the process of your upgrading the usb board and the pin to pin connection between f1 and the audiogd board
 very nice upgrade i bet
 thanks


----------



## juanitox

murphythecat said:


> very interested as we both use the same mosaic t dac.
> let me know if you find a solution or if you compare your mutec vs f1 for the Mosaic T dac!


 

 the solution is not as simple with the Mosaic Tdac as you must open it and bypass the toslink Digital receiver card and attack directly the DAC with the I2S out of the F1 ( or your breeze DU8)   fortunately the I2S input are written on the Dac card


----------



## Gordian

Bought mine from ebay seller (wsz0304). Tracking number appears to be a fake, nothing seems to be actually shipped and seller simply ignore my requests.
 Very bad customer experience


----------



## wushuliu

gordian said:


> Bought mine from ebay seller (wsz0304). Tracking number appears to be a fake, nothing seems to be actually shipped and seller simply ignore my requests.
> Very bad customer experience




Takes about a week before tracking shows up...


----------



## Gordian

wushuliu said:


> Takes about a week before tracking shows up...


 
  
 Already more than a week but thanks for your reply. That will help to wait tracking to appear...


----------



## MINORISUKE

gordian said:


> Already more than a week but thanks for your reply. That will help to wait tracking to appear...


 
 F-1 is out of stock, according to the manufacturer, and everybody has to wait for the next batch of production.
 This seller issues the tracking number first and gives it to you, regardless of the stock condition, so that the goods can be delivered immediately when the manufacturer sends to the seller.
 In addition, Singapore Post needs additional three to seven days before the tracking number appears on the system.  This is from my experience.
 Be patient.


----------



## juanitox

> More than 10 available / 42 sold


 
 the only problem is the " out of stock" mention  was not mentioned  on his eBay page ,  not a very honest way to make business ..
  
 fortunately  we have eBay feedback


----------



## Octagon

gordian said:


> Bought mine from ebay seller (wsz0304). Tracking number appears to be a fake, nothing seems to be actually shipped and seller simply ignore my requests.
> Very bad customer experience




Hi Gordian,

I bought two F-1 from this seller. Shipped the next day after paypal confirmation of payment. Tracking number did not work with Hongkong Post but later on with DHL, use the one shown within ebay, not the one send by the seller. One week delay through custom I received them within 16 days in total. Communication has been ok as well, answered within two days. Only pushback was the delivery of the drivers because he seems to misunderstood two mails asking for the driver.

I understand the F-1 is everywhere out of stock at the moment. Be patient and let me confirm: You will be happy at the end of the day that you ordered one. After more than 200h of burn in the sq has grown to a even more distinct quality as I mentioned before 

Take care
Thomas


----------



## Gordian

Hi, 
  
 Thanks all of you. Really. I feel more confident now. 
 Tried to find the DHL tracking number on ebay transaction but I can only see the one from HongKong Post. Just need to be a bit more patient 
  
 In there they appear to have stock, not sure whether it is reliable or not...
  
 http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/f-1-xmos-usb-digital-interface-board-xu208-chip-high-end-u8-upgraded-version.html
  
 Thanks again


----------



## h1f1add1cted

As I wrote few posts before: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/1620#post_12584598 no it's not in stock.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
 Mine is on its way, allegedly, from Taobab: not a lot confidence that it'll get here....
  
 Would appreciate if you post pictures. Are you going to solder the I2s pins on yourself? Do you have a cable lined up for it?
  
 I would love to see pics of your final board.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## jfrocke

I had the same sort of shipping problem.  I received a tracking number right away but that package never showed any movement.  I complained to the eBay seller "wsz0304" and then he sent me a DHL tracking number instead.  The "second" package arrived via DHL within a week to New Jersey.


IMHO - I don't know what the deal is with these sellers that send tracking numbers right away but then there always seems to be another number forthcoming later.  I have a feeling this could be to meet sort sort of eBay seller metrics.


----------



## Albrecht

Postman just handed mine to me!!!
  
 YAY


----------



## b0bb

jfrocke said:


> I had the same sort of shipping problem.  I received a tracking number right away but that package never showed any movement.  I complained to the eBay seller "wsz0304" and then he sent me a DHL tracking number instead.  The "second" package arrived via DHL within a week to New Jersey.
> IMHO - I don't know what the deal is with these sellers that send tracking numbers right away but then there always seems to be another number forthcoming later.  I have a feeling this could be to meet sort sort of eBay seller metrics.


 

 I had a similar experience with wsz0304 with my F-1 order, tracking number was issued but it was given to DHL a week later, had to prod the seller to find out what was holding up the shipment.
  
 This was after having to wait 2+ weeks for it to come back into stock.
  
 wsz0304 was tardy with the delivery, a disappointing and increasingly common trend with quite a few Ebay sellers operating out of Shenzen.


----------



## MINORISUKE

A discrepancy between the real stock condition and that shown in any on-line store seems to be inevitable.
 If you see "out of stock," you will definitely search for other stores.  Even if you ask the store directly, the reply is almost always positive, as long as it is a non-exclusive dealer.
 In this particular F-1 at this moment, Shenzhen Audio (in various forms, such as its direct store, AliExpress, eBay) and the manufacturer are the only sellers, and there is no reason for them to suspend the delivery.  Obviously, F-1 was really out of stock.


----------



## rw35

Don't panic... my F-1 has just arrived from the eBay seller, the tracking no didn't work but it came well within 14 days (to the UK).
  
 edit... I can't get the bloody driver to download, anyone care to share it with me?
  
 edit again, found it: http://www.mediafire.com/download/jma92ool3p16q3p/Singxer-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver_v3.20.0.exe


----------



## ginetto61

Hi ! they have it in stock right now ...
  
http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/f-1-xmos-usb-digital-interface-board-xu208-chip-high-end-u8-upgraded-version.html
  
 I have one question and sorry if i missed it.
  
*Does the F-1 provide also galvanic isolation between upstream pc and downstream dac ?  *
  
 i am trying to understand if i could go with it and just a decent usb power supply to power it
 Thanks and regards,
 gino


----------



## Gordian

h1f1add1cted said:


> As I wrote few posts before: http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/1620#post_12584598 no it's not in stock.


 
 Gino, 
  
 Obviously it's not in stock !
  
 And I think MINORISUKE is perfectly right, F1 is probably not in stock but resellers still pretend that's ok to maximise their profits.
  
 My issue is just they still pretend to have shipped the item when it's obviously not the case


----------



## rw35

OK, I tried the F-1 in my Aurender chain and it didn't work, but it turns out that it's the W4S Recovery that shuts down due to some kind of USB power protection issue and there is a revised Recovery version that is supposed to fix that.
  
 So without the recovery in the chain: Aurender N100 > Intona Industrial > Singxer F-1 into my Auralic VEGA DAC right on the 1st track I can tell that this is a nice piece of work. I can't right now say if it's better than the already astounding sound I'm getting via the VEGA's USB input but I will now leave it on play for a few days and report back. It sounds a bit loose and bright right now but that's always how new digital stuff sounds to me, after a few days everything usually mellows tightens, opens and gets richer.
  
 I think this is going to be a _*very*_ good sounding device, shame I can't do a perfect compare with the Recovery in the chain, let's hope W4S play nice with me regarding getting the updated version as I'm in the UK and they have a bit of an un-trusting overseas support policy, I've asked nicely for their help.
  
 @rb I know you will be reading this, look forward to catching up 'down the road', hope you are well.


----------



## BrainFood

A REQUEST
  
 If anyone is able to modify the latest F1 driver so that it is able to show control panel (for changing latency settings), that would be very much appreciated!
  
 This was done previously to a Gustard U12 luckit driver. I don't know if that one works with the F1 but, in any case, it is a few years old and not ideal to use.
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 Here's a pic of my F-1 in my chain, sitting happily plugged into the microRendu and off to my APL Universal......
  
 I was able to drill a very good whole into the back plate of the aluminum case, - but the USB female port side didn't come out so well. Once the SPDIF side is screwed down though, - the case F-1 is secure inside, and doesn't slide around at all. No contact is made with the back plate, - but a little piece of white electrical tape makes sure. I may try a new SPDIF cable in a couple of weeks, or perhaps a Curious cables Regen link, - but for now, - it's just the USB converter plug supplied by Sonore.
  
 I only got a chance to listen for 1/2 hour last night. But first impressions are that this guy is GREAT! Lots of detail without being bright, the system still retains it's mid-range bloom that it's always had, and it doesn't affect that lovely sound of the microRendu. Without doing any "back n forth" with the HiFace II I was using, - I believe that I'm hearing more detail... But as mentioned, further testing will be coming......


----------



## KEGGER

X-1 UPDATE HERE.
  
 Pretty much been listening non stop daily for roughly the past couple weeks.
 First impressions stayed the same, better overall resolution, smoother and a more solid center image.
 (no issues, solid locks, and used with 3 different DAC'S)
  
 I really wanted to upgrade/change my cables after all the research led to what I had wasn't the best, figured it couldn't hurt.
  
 I ended up with this cable as a bang for buck with all the proper specs. (the link I had earlier in this thread was an incorrect listing)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/CS-Signature-Series-77-Coaxial-Digital-Audio-Interconnect-Cable-1-5m-/360491347331?hash=item53eef56d83:g:bG8AAOSwu4BViLms
  
 (first off not a big cable guy here, yes I've heard differences but couldn't really justify some of the prices for "maybe" a slight improvement)
 So my cable came in and I swapped out my 1m XLO, instantly smoother, more bottom with even a fuller vocal range, and less tizzy up top.
  
 At first I wasn't for sure I liked the top end, seemed maybe a bit to subdued, but after more listening I believe it started to open up, and cleaner.
 (Part of the difference may have also been a fake grunge like added to the top that made it seem less was there, but it wasn't real material?)
  
 After letting run for 24hours it did sound more open, I then added 2 snap on ferrite cores to the cable, now even cleaner, smoother and clearer.
  
 I'm still using USB power for the X-1, running an well shielded USB cable with an ferrite core at each end has worked extremely nice here as well.
 (I plan on some kind of external power for the X-1, but for now there is Nothing but the X-1 on any USB, and I feel is decently clean on this pc)
  
 I don't know about others but the ferrite on the cables has been a very welcomed addition here on my setup.
 I'd also say the Canare cable from ebay is a very nice and well made cable.
  
 Cheers all..


----------



## KEGGER

Very nice looking work and setup Albrecht.. :)
  
 What DAC are you actually running there?


----------



## KEGGER

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! they have it in stock right now ...
> 
> http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/f-1-xmos-usb-digital-interface-board-xu208-chip-high-end-u8-upgraded-version.html
> 
> ...


 

 No I don't believe the F-1 provides the isolation you ask like that.
  
 I have the X-1, I plan on getting a Wyrd and probably 1 Jitterbug as a "budget" type power and purifier system.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 Thank you......
  
  
 I am running a microRendu by Sonore in LMS/Squeezelite mode off of a QNAP TS 251+ NAS in the other room, connected by fiber with two FMCs & a couple of 1ft Rosewill CAT7 cable.
  
 I have an APL SPDIF cable going into my APL Universal player, - and that goes into the Merlin BAM and then on to a Blue Circle BC204 hybrid amp and Merlin VSM speakers..... you can just barely see the back of the Teradak 9v, 3a 30w LPS that powers the microRendu.
  
 My macMini USB bus died a horrible death in January, - so I've been without 2/3 of my music on the main rig for 5 months. I  run 3 Squeezeboxes in the rest of the house.....
  
 Will be trying Roon out as soon as I upgrade the NAS firmware/OS.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Sanlitun

albrecht said:


> Postman just handed mine to me!!!
> 
> YAY


 
  
 What sort of shipping times is everyone getting?
  
 Still no word on mine.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 I made sure that I didn't buy from that horrible Shenzen person and got it from freeshoppingchina.com, as RB2013 suggested. They buy it from Taobab, - and they have to wait for Taobab to get it to them, then they ship it off to the USA. It took over a week and 1/2 to get it from Taobab, but once it got to freeshopping, it was a pretty quick delivery I ordered it on 4/28 & received it 5/16. I bet that my order was placed before the devices went out of stock everywhere.....
  
 Cheers,


----------



## wushuliu

I got the Intona (standard version) yesterday. I dunno, it helps some but it's not nearly as good to my ears as the ifi nano iusb 3.0. The nano iusb I'd say is worth the $200 with or without the F-1. I should probably let the Intona settle in for a bit before judging more. RB was right about the F-1 responding better with a clean power supply. Also seems sensitive to cables/connectors.


----------



## Muziqboy

So I have about 400hrs on the F-1 and about 300hrs on the Startech USB2.0 to Gigabit Lan Extenders and the SQ is really very impressive so far. I've never heard this much detail in the music before and the soundstage width and depth is very cavernous. The realism in the reproduction of the recorded material is unbelievable. No veil at all. I am very happy with this set-up in my rig and I am not sure that I can improve it any further!!!
  
 Set-up is:
 PC -> iFi micro iUSB 3.0 -> Startech USB2.0 to Gigabit Lan -> iFi nano iUSB3.0 -> F-1 -> DAC


----------



## wushuliu

Wait, so do you need TWO Gigabit Lan thingamabobs to work or just one. Frankly I'm still confused by how they work...


----------



## cursto

They are sold as a pair, a sender and receiver. You need one package which contains two USB extenders, a USB cable, and a power supply.


----------



## wushuliu

cursto said:


> They are sold as a pair, a sender and receiver. You need one package which contains two USB extenders, a USB cable, and a power supply.


 
 Ah, ok. Thanks for explaining.


----------



## seeteeyou

C1 board with I2S output only, 768 RMB
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=531233823301


----------



## mtoc

someone warn me to apology to op.
  
 I apology to one of the most warm-hearted members since 2000s, rb2013.


----------



## ginetto61

kegger said:


> No *I don't believe the F-1 provides the isolation you ask like that.*
> I have the X-1, I plan on getting a Wyrd and probably 1 Jitterbug as a "budget" type power and purifier system.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot again for the helpful advice.
 From what they told me also the Wyrd does not provide galvanic isolation.
 However i wonder if galvanic isolation is really mandatory.
 People using for instance the Intona, a galvanic isolator, say it is beneficial for sound.
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *Muziqboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...   *the Startech USB2.0 to Gigabit Lan Extenders *...
> Set-up is:
> PC -> iFi micro iUSB 3.0 -> Startech USB2.0 to Gigabit Lan -> iFi nano iUSB3.0 -> F-1 -> DAC


 
  
 Hi thanks for the info.
 Could you provide a link to the exact Startech model you have ?  or the model number.
 i looked at the site by i am still confused about the different models.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## mtoc

plus: truly sorry about what i did for rb2013. he's such a good person, very kind and helpful.


----------



## Muziqboy

ginetto61 said:


> Hi thanks for the info.
> Could you provide a link to the exact Startech model you have ?  or the model number.
> i looked at the site by i am still confused about the different models.
> Thanks again,  gino


 
  
 It went a bit up in price but here's the link:
  
http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1463550643&sr=8-3&keywords=startech+usb2.0+to+gigabit+lan


----------



## ccschua

Just check too. It can be so much cheaper. Check that usb31000s by startech is a usb 3.0 to gigabit ethernet. Just need twonof this with the other end a usb B connect9r.

This unit also solves my control pc woes. It supports 2012 and i hav now 2 ethernet port on control pc.

So rb, if u havt tried dual pc giv it a thought. It is as good as F-1. OS plays apart on sound too.


----------



## ginetto61

muziqboy said:


> It went a bit up in price but here's the link:
> http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1463550643&sr=8-3&keywords=startech+usb2.0+to+gigabit+lan


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot indeed for the helpful reply.
 Reading the comments i am very tempted.
 I still wonder if some of this nice sound can be obtained also with the simpler non-lan version, substantially cheaper.
 Maybe i am completely wrong but i think that the Ethernet transmission allows for a very precise signal transmission and the final receiver works a little like a Regen in the way that it outputs a very clean and strong usb signal.
 But nobody has tested the non-lan devices.
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## Muziqboy

I think somebody already tried the non-gigabit lan version and was getting stuttering and drop-outs in the music.
 It was posted some pages back, you might have to look for it. @rb2013 if I recall, specifically said that only the USB2.0 over Gigabit Lan will work.


----------



## ginetto61

muziqboy said:


> I think somebody already tried the non-gigabit lan version and was getting stuttering and drop-outs in the music.
> It was posted some pages back, you might have to look for it. @rb2013 if I recall, specifically said that only the USB2.0 over Gigabit Lan will work.


 
  
 Hi and yes i remember well that.
 Anyway stubbornly i will be trying again another one soon.
 The 1st one i tried was a usb 1.1 device and while i indeed heard some benefits in the sound i experienced also clicks with my usb dac (Aune x1s).
 It should pass up to *24/96 *without issues (equivalent to  4.6 Mbit/s ?)
 By the way, i have the feeling that ethernet connection is fantastic ... so much better than usb.
 An evidence is in the max allowed length for cables ...
  


> When used for 10/100/1000BASE-T, the maximum allowed length of a Cat 6 cable is *100 meters*


 
 Just compare it with the max 6 meters for usb and cry.
 Thanks a lot, gino


----------



## rw35

wushuliu said:


> I got the Intona (standard version) yesterday. I dunno, it helps some but it's not nearly as good to my ears as the ifi nano iusb 3.0. The nano iusb I'd say is worth the $200 with or without the F-1. I should probably let the Intona settle in for a bit before judging more. RB was right about the F-1 responding better with a clean power supply. Also seems sensitive to cables/connectors.


 

 You needed the Industrial version, it's well documented that it's the preferred model and it shines when injected (split cable) with an LPS


----------



## mtoc

sorry about the post above, should be "what i did to".


----------



## wushuliu

rw35 said:


> You needed the Industrial version, it's well documented that it's the preferred model and it shines when injected (split cable) with an LPS




Ive read it has fewer connectivity issues not that it is sonically superior.


----------



## Caper

wushuliu said:


> Ive read it has fewer connectivity issues not that it is sonically superior.


 
 Yeah, that´s my impression too.
 So I have the standard version.
 Haven´t really compared with or without the Intona, maybe I will do it right now.


----------



## rw35

Hope this helps : http://intona.eu/en/answer/1238


----------



## KEGGER

ginetto61 said:


> kegger said:
> 
> 
> > No *I don't believe the F-1 provides the isolation you ask like that.*
> ...


 
  
 Yah sorry if I didn't make that clear.
 Wasn't meant to infer the Wyrd provided galvanic isolation.
  
 Was just stating what my "budget" plan for purification/power direction was looking like.
  
 Cheers man,
 Keg


----------



## ginetto61

kegger said:


> Yah sorry if I didn't make that clear.
> Wasn't meant to infer the Wyrd provided galvanic isolation.
> Was just stating what my "budget" plan for purification/power direction was looking like.
> Cheers man,
> Keg


 
  
 Hi and thanks again,  I think that for the price the Wyrd must be bought without hesitation.  
 It is a very useful accessory at a very nice price. 
 Here in Europe is about double the price unfortunately 
 I like it a lot.  For sure it provides some kind of beneficial isolation even if not galvanic. 
 I have some cheap ones bought on ebay but said to be detrimental for sound. 
 Regards, gino


----------



## vhsownsbeta

Can anyone running F-1 with a Regen/Recovery/etc provide a subjective comparison between the performance of F-1 bus-powered vs in conjunction with one of those devices?


----------



## hugoboss

vhsownsbeta said:


> Can anyone running F-1 with a Regen/Recovery/etc provide a subjective comparison between the performance of F-1 bus-powered vs in conjunction with one of those devices?


 

 iam running f1 with ifi iusb 3.o in chain
 with ifi iusb3 or without is almost the same
 so f1 alone is enough.
 but i have lps ultra linear for the 5 volt usb so iam not using the computer 5 volt usb power


----------



## wushuliu

vhsownsbeta said:


> Can anyone running F-1 with a Regen/Recovery/etc provide a subjective comparison between the performance of F-1 bus-powered vs in conjunction with one of those devices?




I have tried nano iusb intona and ipurifier2. All help the f1 to some degree. Opens up the sound. Less congested. I do not use any linear power supplies...


----------



## hugoboss

wushuliu said:


> I have tried nano iusb intona and ipurifier2. All help the f1 to some degree. Opens up the sound. Less congested. I do not use any linear power supplies...


 

 if u have already clean 5 volt usb power with dual head usb cable
  and linear power supply.
 ifi only help little improvement


----------



## vhsownsbeta

hugoboss said:


> iam running f1 with ifi iusb 3.o in chain
> with ifi iusb3 or without is almost the same
> so f1 alone is enough.
> but i have lps ultra linear for the 5 volt usb so iam not using the computer 5 volt usb power


 
  


wushuliu said:


> I have tried nano iusb intona and ipurifier2. All help the f1 to some degree. Opens up the sound. Less congested. I do not use any linear power supplies...


 

 Thanks. I currently use a mobile setup involving a laptop and Mojo. I guess I am trying to figure out if having a bus-powered F-1 between them is actually worthwhile. The other option could be a y-split data/power USB cable with a LiPo battery powering the F-1, if indeed that is any 'quieter' than a Macbook battery...


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 I just am running in my F-1 now with a microRendu.
  
 For me, all those iFi, Intona, Regen boxes, (except for the unremovable Regen that's built into the microRendu), became obsolete with the Icron GB LAN ASIC extenders, & the upcoming PSAudio LanRover.
  
 I would never consider such things & their PSUs, (where applicable), & cables as it almost guarantees an insignificant price difference vs performance.
  
 Apologies in advance, my answer didn't quite answer the question that you asked.


----------



## murphythecat

https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan
  
 so this is what to get?


----------



## Albrecht

Yes,
  
 That is the correct unit....


----------



## wushuliu

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just am running in my F-1 now with a microRendu.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I just got the Icron GB lan. As soon as you plug it in yes, it is far better than the ipurifier, nano iusb and standard Intona. The nano iusb does help a lot though when attached to the Icron. However, as I said before I do not have have any linear power supplies attached (at this time, I have all kinds stored away). I am not interested in having a whole chain of devices feeding a cheap dac so I will sell/return everything but the Icron and F1. I love how the nano iusb performs with the F-1 though so I may just return the Icron and keep that even though it sounds much better overall. Decisions, decisions...


----------



## wushuliu

albrecht said:


> Yes,
> 
> That is the correct unit....


 
 Did the price go up? I though it was only $433 direct last I checked...


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 It is my understanding that they had two of these. (gigabit LAN both had the same model number).  RB2013 discovered this after calling them? I also thought that he said that they were discontinuing the $433 one that was GB LAN, but wasn't isochronous and didn't have that really good chip that Chord uses in their FPGA DAC. Sorry, - can't remember the page in this thread where he clarified..... In any case, - one really wants that chip, and the isochronous ASIC
  
 Cheers,


----------



## wushuliu

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is my understanding that they had two of these. (gigabit LAN both had the same model number).  RB2013 discovered this after calling them? I also thought that he said that they were discontinuing the $433 one that was GB LAN, but wasn't isochronous and didn't have that really good chip that Chord uses in their FPGA DAC. Sorry, - can't remember the page in this thread where he clarified..... In any case, - one really wants that chip, and the isochronous ASIC
> 
> Cheers,


 
 okay, that makes sense.


----------



## rw35

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just am running in my F-1 now with a microRendu.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi, that doesn't quite mirror my experience, but I compared the USB>LAN box with an Intona Industrial being injected with LPS.
  
 When PS Audio release the LANRover I will probably try that out.
  
 I think the difference in my system is there are no SMPS in the digital chain and by trying the Startech USB>LAN (confirmed that I had the correct isync version) I introduced an SMPS and that caused some degradation.
  
 My gut feeling is that the performance might be fairly similar if both methods are fed with LPS.
  
 I would highly recommend getting an LPS for your USB>LAN device in any case.


----------



## MINORISUKE

I have been reading the posts about USB-LAN-USB stuff curiously, and am wondering if the minimum latency setting works for XMOS USB-DAC/DDC.
 A test by an owner of such devices with the relevant driver allowing latency settings would be appreciated.


----------



## rw35

F-1 has about 80 hours on it, just listened to a few tunes... it has a lush tone and a subtle softness.
  
 Compared to going USB into the VEGA it's a shade warmer/fuller at the possible tiny expense of punch and energy.
  
 It's a subtle difference down to preference.
  
 It's still not a fair comparison as W4S are sending me a replacement board for the Recovery (it won't power the F-1), only then will I be able to make a direct comparison.
  
 The current comparison is:
  
 a. Aurender N100 > Intona Industrial (injected LPS) > W4S Recovery (LPS) > VEGA USB input
 b. Aurender N100 > Intona Industrial (injected LPS) > Singxer F-1 > VEGA Coax input
  
 As soon as the new W4S board arrives I'll do another comparison.
  
 Both a & b sound excellent.
  
*The F-1 is crazy good for the small change it costs.*
  
**


----------



## wushuliu

minorisuke said:


> I have been reading the posts about USB-LAN-USB stuff curiously, and am wondering if the minimum latency setting works for XMOS USB-DAC/DDC.
> A test by an owner of such devices with the relevant driver allowing latency settings would be appreciated.


 
  
 I am able to use lowest 50ms buffer setting on Foobar.


----------



## mtoc

Folks, a very serious question seems no one wanna notice, when we buy the Startech USB>LAN, hey, we have to buy a card, a pci-e ethernet card for connecting it, I am not talking about switch, not everyone wanna use a switch. Well, you have to surf the net, you use the original rj45 port for posting on HF, and, you need another port for our Startech. And, the question here is, have we must buy a special ethernet card or some common one (of course i know we need the 1000M version)?


----------



## hugoboss

it's connected from your usb port not lan port so you dont need pcie lan port
 that startech is usb extender not lan extender


----------



## wushuliu

mtoc said:


> Folks, a very serious question seems no one wanna notice, when we buy the Startech USB>LAN, hey, we have to buy a card, a pci-e ethernet card for connecting it, I am not talking about switch, not everyone wanna use a switch. Well, you have to surf the net, you use the original rj45 port for posting on HF, and, you need another port for our Startech. And, the question here is, have we must buy a special ethernet card or some common one (of course i know we need the 1000M version)?


 
  
 You don't need any kind of card. Just your usb port. The Startech is comprised of two boxes. It's PC USB--->Startech box 1----LAN----Startech box 2----usb---->DAC


----------



## mtoc

Sorry, i thought it's kinda the same as the NADAC, NADAC needs an extra LAN port.


----------



## MINORISUKE

wushuliu said:


> I am able to use lowest 50ms buffer setting on Foobar.


 
 Thank you.  I need 10msec for JPLAY ULTRAstream 700Hz/0.01sec.
 If you have a chance to check, please let me know.  There is a free trial version of JPLAY, in case you are not its user.


----------



## wushuliu

minorisuke said:


> Thank you.  I need 10msec for JPLAY ULTRAstream 700Hz/0.01sec.
> If you have a chance to check, please let me know.  There is a free trial version of JPLAY, in case you are not its user.


 
 I've been using Jplay for a long time. Unfortunately I have not been able to get 700hz to work with the F-1. However, like RB, I think the F-1 actually sounds better using the XMOS Asio driver instead of KS.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi RW

Yes, I read your posts on your experience with this and was quite curious why you had a different experience that RB2013.

I guessed that perhaps having the Intona so close to your DAC might have an affect, as well as if you were using both sender and receiver of the USB extenders on your audio rack instead of through your LAN. And, as you mention, - the linear power supply.

Your experience is definitely a lesson, (one that keeps playing out), that all systems are different, and can and do react differently to different devices.

The Regen, Intona, Startech, IFI etc, are really interesting, and from my perspective, are great new boxes that illustrate how bad a computer's USB bus can be. I've read where using an Intona in conjunction with a REGEN is excellent. And, others, have said that the two together are worse than the Intona alone.

As you say, none of this stuff is so crazy expensive, and they are all high value, - so if one doesn't work, - (at least for the short term), - one can sell them easily.

I do think that the Lanrover/Icron solution has a big leg up on the others though, - because it allows one to banish that computer into the basement...


----------



## wushuliu

I have the BJC cable arriving tomorrow for the Startech. If I decide to keep the Startech I am not going to spend $$$ on a power supply. There are plenty of cheap open frame 24v industrial ones on ebay with decent (~3mv) ripple. Just plop them in an enclosure and wire them up...


----------



## rw35

albrecht said:


> Hi RW
> 
> Yes, I read your posts on your experience with this and was quite curious why you had a different experience that RB2013.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes good points.
  
 FYI, I have absolutely minimal cable length runs, some are only 10cm... and the Aurender probably is quite a bit cleaner than a computer from the outset, making my experience differ from those who are using Macs/PCs - and with typical cable runs.
  
_All that matters is we continue to share our knowledge and experiences and help each other out._
  
**
  
 I will almost certainly try the LANRover when it comes out.


----------



## wushuliu

Here's an interesting discussion regarding the power supplies I mentioned... this poster used one for CAPS build. Not bad for <$50 total.
  


> I did a quick hookup of just the 12v rail. My early impressions are significant improvements in soundstage (speakers absolutely disappear), bass (more articulation/detail), highs (more articulation/detail), and a "blacker" background. The music is also much "punchier" greater "clarity" than before (by clarity, I mean the tone quality is richer and the detail smoother). The difference seems to be significant enough that I wouldn't go back even after just a short time.
> 
> This is worth the effort by a long shot...
> 
> Over the next few weeks I'll give it more of a measured listen. I'll also build a nice enclosure and connectors. I'll post photos and such for those that wish to give it a whirl themselves.


----------



## wushuliu

Now I'm the one posting alot. Oh, the irony.
  
 Anyway, got the Elfidelity USB 3.0 filter and I think it aquits itself well for only $60, especially after the Icron. Maybe I'll get another one for before the Icron. I think I prefer it to the Ipurifier 2. 
  
 I also dug out a home made power filter based on the 'Felix' design at audiocircle - wow, really cleans ups the Icron. Not perfect but point being, absolutely do whatever is possible to improve the Icon PS.


----------



## System54

the dc-dc regulator ripple noise is typ: 75mvp-p  go go go diyers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.mornsun-power.com/uploads/pdf/B_S-1W.pdf


----------



## wushuliu

The BJC clean things up a bit. Do sound a little bright up top though.


----------



## wakka992

wushuliu said:


> Now I'm the one posting alot. Oh, the irony.
> 
> Anyway, got the Elfidelity USB 3.0 filter and I think it aquits itself well for only $60, especially after the Icron. Maybe I'll get another one for before the Icron. I think I prefer it to the Ipurifier 2.




Hi there, 

I think that the Elfidelity and the iPurifier are 2 different kind of device as the first one use active filter for the 5v from the PC while the iFi does active filter 5v, Reclock and Regenerate the USB signal.

Another difference is that the Elfidelity use external DC while iFi Usb bus power.

You should use both. Or buy a iFi nano iUSB 3.0 to get the job done


----------



## juanitox

"Warning" for future F1 customer  with the seller  wsz0304 on eBay , First this guy lie about the F1 stock status ,  second he will give you a false tracking number ( mine is expired!) and when you contact him he just say i will make another shipment later ?!     a paypal claim is running. nothing terrible but just  another disappointing eBay seller and a waste of time ..


----------



## occamsrazor

This is most likely a dumb question but..... when using a USB bridge like these, do they offer any kind of USB HID volume control? I'm guessing not. So if you used a bridge doing to a DAC that already had USB HID volume control you would use that control? Thanks.


----------



## rw35

juanitox said:


> "Warning" for future F1 customer  with the seller  wsz0304 on eBay , First this guy lie about the F1 stock status ,  second he will give you a false tracking number ( mine is expired!) and when you contact him he just say i will make another shipment later ?!     a paypal claim is running. nothing terrible but just  another disappointing eBay seller and a waste of time ..


 
  
 Mate, I've already explained on here that my item arrived from him within 14 days.
  
 Yes the tracking number didn't work at first, Yes it took about 12 days to arrive.
  
 ... but this seller is genuine and he delivers the goods (eventually) - try the link below.
  
*Less paranoia, more patience.*
  

  
  
*http://track-chinapost.com/starteub.php?code=AG020652862CN*


----------



## juanitox

rw35 said:


> Mate, I've already explained on here that my item arrived from him within 14 days.
> 
> Yes the tracking number didn't work, Yes it took about 12 days to arrive.
> 
> ...


 
  
 so he will  ( eventually )take my money..


----------



## Sanlitun

juanitox said:


> "Warning" for future F1 customer  with the seller  wsz0304 on eBay , First this guy lie about the F1 stock status ,  second he will give you a false tracking number ( mine is expired!) and when you contact him he just say i will make another shipment later ?!     a paypal claim is running. nothing terrible but just  another disappointing eBay seller and a waste of time ..


 

 I fear the same thing has happened to me. I asked about the tracking number showing no information after two weeks and got back "i will check it". 
  
 Did you ask for a refund or just hit the return button? 
  
 I will give it a few more days but I don't believe anything has shipped at all. My tracking number is with Singapore Post and will not track anywhere.


----------



## juanitox

unfortunately you seems screwed too..    all we have to do is make a claim and negative feedback and  hope this kind of seller will quickly disappear from eBay.


----------



## jabbr

sanlitun said:


> ... My tracking number is with Singapore Post and will not track anywhere.


 
 With singapore post perhaps?
 http://beta.singpost.com/track-items


----------



## juanitox

no the seller give false tracking number in first time , then use the same speech for every customer  " Ok i will check it thanks"
 and then nothing .     
 so for those who  are looking for a F1 usb card , better go elsewhere


----------



## wushuliu

wakka992 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I think that the Elfidelity and the iPurifier are 2 different kind of device as the first one use active filter for the 5v from the PC while the iFi does active filter 5v, Reclock and Regenerate the USB signal.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know. I am saying if I have to choose between one or the other, I choose the Elfidelity.


----------



## Gordian

Tracking numbers from seller wsz0304 on ebay do not work. I spend my whole week asking him whether he shipped the Xmos or not. Eventually after ten times 'I'll check', got a clear answer : "not shipped"
  
 Bought another unit from rcshop2011, will see now if that's better


----------



## juanitox

gordian said:


> Tracking numbers from seller wsz0304 on ebay do not work. I spend my whole week asking him whether he shipped the Xmos or not. Eventually after ten times 'I'll check', got a clear answer : "not shipped"
> 
> Bought another unit from rcshop2011, will see now if that's better


 

 hope you will have more chance with it ..  i will wait to have my money back before trying my chance again with another Chinese seller 
  
 ( pls don't forget to take care of wsz0304 eBay  feedback )


----------



## Sanlitun

jabbr said:


> With singapore post perhaps?
> http://beta.singpost.com/track-items


 
  
 No it just shows "Item status not found in the system". I am pretty sure that the seller has just come up with a fake tracking to satisfy the Ebay requirement of having a tracking number within 24 hours.
  
 I am going to message for a refund now and then if I don't get any action escalate.


----------



## Gordian

If there is any interest, I can let you know guys whether my second seller from ebay is reliable or...not


----------



## somestranger26

Why not order from Aliexpress instead of Ebay? The Fedex tracking that I received from Shenzhen audio was real.
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/SINGXER-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface-board-XU208-chip-High-end-U8-upgraded-version/32648384788.html


----------



## Sanlitun

somestranger26 said:


> Why not order from Aliexpress instead of Ebay? The Fedex tracking that I received from Shenzhen audio was real.
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/SINGXER-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface-board-XU208-chip-High-end-U8-upgraded-version/32648384788.html


 
  
 It says it ships via Singapore Post. Are Shenzhen Audio and wsz0304 the same seller?


----------



## somestranger26

sanlitun said:


> It says it ships via Singapore Post. Are Shenzhen Audio and wsz0304 the same seller?


 
 No.
  
 wsz0304: http://yulongaudio.com/en/contact.asp
 http://stores.ebay.com/shenzhenAudioStore : http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/


----------



## roger7

sanlitun said:


> It says it ships via Singapore Post. Are Shenzhen Audio and wsz0304 the same seller?


 
  
 It's the same seller. He also sells F-1 and SU-1 on aliexpress.


----------



## ldp216

I found this YouTube Channel interesting ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxqe_1sWpkg&index=3&list=LL73ELyKcI1j5yrPmt-iwdzw ).
  
 He's got 3 other similar videos as well.
  
  
 Looks like he's using something similar to the new DIYINK XMOS 768kHz DXD DSD512(DSD1024) USB to I2S/DSD PCB ( http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html#/xmos_option-xmos_768k_pcb ). I WOULD LOVE TO SEE & READ MORE ON THIS PARTICULAR PRODUCT, especially via visuals (custom install pics and vids).
  
 He's using an Arduino Nano, with which he wrote codes, to display Sample Rates through a compatible OLED screen.
  
 Here's the full product page from his blog, if anyone's interested ( http://www.dimdim.gr/arduino/universal-usb-to-i2s-interface-indicator/ ).


----------



## KEGGER

wushuliu said:


> Now I'm the one posting alot. Oh, the irony.
> 
> Anyway, got the Elfidelity USB 3.0 filter and I think it aquits itself well for only $60, especially after the Icron. Maybe I'll get another one for before the Icron. I think I prefer it to the Ipurifier 2.
> 
> I also dug out a home made power filter based on the 'Felix' design at audiocircle - wow, really cleans ups the Icron. Not perfect but point being, absolutely do whatever is possible to improve the Icon PS.


 
  
 Hey looks quite interesting, obviously good price to,
 (any links to other reviews/people using it)
  
 Is it just basically a 5v supply that separates itself from the pc usb power source?
  
 Also you wrote usb 3.0, does it need a usb 3.0 port from the pc?
  
 Any more impressions or info you might like to share? I'm all ears..


----------



## roman410

juanitox said:


> "Warning" for future F1 customer  with the seller  wsz0304 on eBay , First this guy lie about the F1 stock status ,  second he will give you a false tracking number ( mine is expired!) and when you contact him he just say i will make another shipment later ?!     a paypal claim is running. nothing terrible but just  another disappointing eBay seller and a waste of time ..


 

 I order F1 from wsz0304 on eBay may 17, today after five days I receive shipping number thru DHL carier, with status "Shipment information received"., trackable thru eBay and also DHL.com. Hope my packing will arrive on time.


----------



## vhsownsbeta

roman410 said:


> I order F1 from wsz0304 on eBay may 17, today after five days I receive shipping number thru DHL carier, with status "Shipment information received"., trackable thru eBay and also DHL.com. Hope my packing will arrive on time.




I just recieved the same info. Fingers crossed...


----------



## wushuliu

Too much demand so they have to ship in batches as they come in probably...


----------



## Sanlitun

vhsownsbeta said:


> I just recieved the same info. Fingers crossed...


 
  
 Can I ask where you are seeing the updated tracking? Was it in an email?
  
 Ordered May 6 and nothing at all here.


----------



## vhsownsbeta

sanlitun said:


> Can I ask where you are seeing the updated tracking? Was it in an email?
> 
> Ordered May 6 and nothing at all here.




eBay notification. When I track the number though DHL website the status is 'shipping info recieved'.


----------



## evilhippie

vhsownsbeta said:


> eBay notification. When I track the number though DHL website the status is 'shipping info recieved'.


 
  
 I get the same through DHL's web site which seems to be a legit number.  I'd be more than annoyed though if I had to wait weeks only to be forced to engage in a back and forth with the seller.  While I'm sure the lack of stock was a legitimate issue on the seller's end, I feel like they could have handled the whole situation better.


----------



## wushuliu

kegger said:


> Hey looks quite interesting, obviously good price to,
> (any links to other reviews/people using it)
> 
> Is it just basically a 5v supply that separates itself from the pc usb power source?
> ...


 
 Yes it's a 5v supply with its own filtration. You can either power separately or use PC power. They sell a USB 2.0 version as well. I think it smooths out the sound even more and lowers the noise floor. You can find some feedback if you search under previous versions 'AXF-100' or AXF-104.


----------



## KEGGER

wushuliu said:


> kegger said:
> 
> 
> > Hey looks quite interesting, obviously good price to,
> ...


 
  
 OK, looks like I found the other 1,
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elfidelity-USB-Boosters-USB-audio-interface-Hi-Fi-Power-Filter-for-PC-DAC-AMP-/251959413499?hash=item3aa9f38afb:g:JcwAAOSwNSxVVEJg
  
 But I'm still not sure I'm following on the 1 YOU HAVE.. (I'm just a little confused)
 Are you plugging it into a USB 3.0 on your PC? Will it then only work on a USB 3.0?
 And if it is only USB 3.0 it still works and plugs into the F-1 USB 2.0 connector on it?
  
 Sorry for all the dumb questions..
 (just that in the original ebay listing it says nothing about USB 3.0)


----------



## Sanlitun

Well I just had a message from seller wsz0304 saying that the courier said there was something wrong with my package and I have to be sent a new one.
  
 Caveat Emptor


----------



## juanitox

sanlitun said:


> Well I just had a message from seller wsz0304 saying that the courier said there was something wrong with my package and I have to be sent a new one.
> 
> Caveat Emptor


 

 another ******** , i have received exactly the same message few days ago ,     


> Nouveau message de : wsz0304 (6,626
> 
> 
> )
> no,i will send a new one to you,is ok.thanks


----------



## rw35

I contacted the eBay seller wsz0304 who delivered my F-1 and warned him of a vendetta building on here and he came back with this.
  
 "thanks very much
 in fact, something wrong with the shipping and this unit
 i have sent messages to these customers
 i hope they can understand
 thanks for your message"
  
 Before you ruin his reputation and damage his business, you might want to consider that he is almost certainly passing on poor service from his suppliers that he has little or no control over, look at his other feedback and then decide if he's a crook...
  
 It would appear obvious that the OEM/factory have completely underestimated rate of production required to service sales volumes. He's probably being told every day "they are coming tomorrow" that isn't his fault - anyone who has run a business will know how awkward that situation is to find yourself in. He doesn't have the option to source them from somewhere else.
  
 Just my 2p, but I think a reality check is needed here.


----------



## PCWar

I purchased from him yesterday after reading feedback here. I believe he is a good guy and everything will be fine for all of us.


----------



## rw35

pcwar said:


> I purchased from him yesterday after reading feedback here. I believe he is a good guy and everything will be fine for all of us.


 

 All buyers are fully covered by eBay buyer protection in any case, so nobody stands to loose money.
  
 It's a great product in very high demand.


----------



## juanitox

> Before you ruin his reputation and damage his business, you might want to consider that he is almost certainly passing on poor service from his suppliers that he has little or no control over, look at his other feedback and then decide if he's a crook...


 
  
 crook or not ,what i see is that he still propose the F1 usb as in stock and no notification of back-order !  ( more than 10 avalaible)


----------



## Calipso

Hi have ordered one F-1 directly from Shenzhenaudio.com May 8 and i received this message May 17

Hi Sebastien,The factory tell me that they supplier have some problem,the PCB doing wrong,have to re-doing. They tell me that maybe next ship is on next Monday.We will ship to you as soon as we receive.Thank you.


----------



## wushuliu

Hopefully quality control is not being compromised due to demand.


----------



## rw35

juanitox said:


> crook or not ,what i see is that he still propose the F1 usb as in stock and no notification of back-order !  ( more than 10 avalaible)


 
  
 Agree, ideally he should update the listing stating there are production problems and the transaction should be considered a pre-order (even if he is constantly being told that 'x' amount will arrive tomorrow).
  
 My _guess_ is that he might be forwarding the orders on, acting more as a sales agent, in which case he would never know the real stock position, only what he's told.
  
 I just think that he's in an awkward predicament not entirely of his own making... everyone is covered by eBay protection and there doesn't appear to be many other places to get the F-1 from right now, so patience will _probably _be a virtue to those who can wait for the factory to get their house in order.
  
 PS, it is worth the wait, the F-1 is very good for the money.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> I contacted the eBay seller wsz0304 who delivered my F-1 and warned him of a vendetta building on here and he came back with this.
> 
> "thanks very much
> in fact, something wrong with the shipping and this unit
> ...


 

 Hey guys - back from a long business trip - great to see the thread humming along!
  
 And the demand for the F-1 off the hook!
  
 Well I have posted on this thread a few times about old Shenzen - or as he is known on Ebay as wsz0304.  The guy is shady - but does deliver.  I bought a F-1 from him - same run around and false promises.  He is just a skimmer - takes orders on Ebay  - and your money in full.  Then goes and places an order with Singxer.  HE lies with his ads - saying he has 10 in stock with whatever is sold.  He does not - just as he did with me - once he gets your money he just ignores you with a shipping number or a fake/used one.  If you complain enough with repeated PM's he will then say he is waiting for more and will ship next week, then the week after, so on.
  
 He will eventually send one - as he does not want to lose his Ebay seller status.
  
 Nice business - no risk - no money - just profits and lies...
  
 His price with shipping is good though - and you have the Ebay 'Buyer Protection' and use Paypal - to protect yourself.  I see a few other Ebay skimmers have caught on and doing the same.  So his guaranteed - no risk - profit scheme has some competition.
  
 On a happier note - I will be getting the mutec mc-3+ smart clock usb tomorrow - for a short trial.  So it will be interesting to compare this $1000 unit to the $175 F-1.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Hopefully quality control is not being compromised due to demand.


 

 That happened with Breeze Audio DU-U8 when it was my top contender - the QC went down hill.  I am glad to see Singxer has rejected the bad boards instead of shipping them out.
  
 Hopefully they will stay true to quality and build a great reputation. 
  
 Has anyone gotten a SU-1 yet?
  
 DIYinHK has the DXIO Pro4a coming soon - using a XU216 - NDK SD clocks and their own 1uv low noise regulators - so the competition will heat up soon.
  
 Should be about the same price as the F-1  - SPDIF only though (maybe board pinouts for i2s), likely a separate ext 5VDC power port.  But not the nice USB from SPDIF isolation like the F-1.


----------



## rb2013

I see DIYinHK has this board available - looks like a XU208?
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/69-isolated-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb-with-ultralow-noise-regulator.html
  


> Features:
> 1) Newest XMOS chip and uses 48MHz oscillator to asynchronous reclock usb audio data to I2S line, old XMOS uses only 13Mhz oscillator, over 4x better jitter rejection theoretically.
> 2) Audio oscillators 22.5792Mhz and 24.576Mhz are located on the clean isolated side for highest performance.
> 3) 6.5uVrms Ultralow noise linear power regulator (use of decade old LM317/1117 regulator is kidding for audiophile)
> ...


 
  Now this statement is very interesting - and may be why the XU208 sounds better then the old U8: "Newest XMOS chip and uses 48MHz oscillator to asynchronous reclock usb audio data to I2S line, old XMOS uses only 13Mhz oscillator, over 4x better jitter rejection theoretically."
  
I see they are also using an USB isolation for the clocks similar to the F-1;  So maybe this what the new Pro4a will be based on.
  
 It seems like they are learning or adapting from the F-1's success.


----------



## ciphercomplete

I didn't have any problems with wsz0304.  I ordered a F-1 and it was delivered really fast.  I didn't have to message him once.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> I didn't have any problems with wsz0304.  I ordered a F-1 and it was delivered really fast.  I didn't have to message him once.


 

 You may have just gotten lucky - when he had a cancelation or a spare one.  I was one of the first to buy when he first listed on Ebay and even then it took 5 weeks.


----------



## rb2013

OK to update on the ICRON/Startech Isochronus 1GB LAN USB extender.
  
 I added a 24VDC Breeze R-Core  LPS to the REX (reciever) and it made a slight improvement.  A bit more air and space to the already fanastic presentation.
  
 But adding a second DC iPur to the mix - this one on that 24VDC LPS feeding the REX - better!  This made a bigger difference then just moving from the SMPS to the LPS on the REX.
  
 Now all my digital systems are on isolated and filtered AC line conditioners - one for the PC, one for the DDC, and one for the DAC.  So having a noisy SMPS on a isolated AC line may not be that big a deal.  But what the DC iPur did was very nice.  Greater detail and a darker background - another level of air and focus.  A bit more musicality and flow.
  
 The Breeze LPS needs some burn time - so should get better with a few hundred hours.
  
 But I would say the DC iPur on the stock SMPS is the best bang for the buck.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/161870356771?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## juanitox

this new one looks serious too,  XMOS xu216 PCM768kHz DSD 512 ,  low noise regulator ,   anyone have one ?


----------



## BucketInABucket

juanitox said:


> this new one looks serious too,  XMOS xu216 PCM768kHz DSD 512 ,  low noise regulator ,   anyone have one ?


 
 Old news, I posted about that a while ago. I have it; still mainly using the F-1 though as iirc that's just a USB to I2S converter.


----------



## DObleX

Hi. There are two identical connectors on the F-1 plate (red marked). What is their function? Any thoughts?


----------



## vhsownsbeta

Welcome back rb2013. I will be interested to hear your impressions re: F-1 vs Mutec...


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Old news, I posted about that a while ago. I have it; still mainly using the F-1 though as iirc that's just a USB to I2S converter.


 

 Yes and if you look closely the new board has the clocks isolated - the difference in 768k and 384k is really mute.


----------



## rb2013

vhsownsbeta said:


> Welcome back @rb2013. I will be interested to hear your impressions re: F-1 vs Mutec...


 

 Thanks!  Me too - tomorrow - tomorrow.  Really tempted to pull the tigger on that AES67 Dante REDNET 3


----------



## wushuliu

rb2013 said:


> OK to update on the ICRON/Startech Isochronus 1GB LAN USB extender.
> 
> I added a 24VDC Breeze R-Core  LPS to the REX (reciever) and it made a slight improvement.  A bit more air and space to the already fanastic presentation.
> 
> ...




Hm. Ill have to build a cheap filter for the dc output. Too much spent already and dc purifier seems hard to find anyway.

Glad ur back!


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!  Me too - tomorrow - tomorrow.  Really tempted to pull the tigger on that AES67 Dante REDNET 3


 
@rb2013 Good to have you back!
  
 I did over the weekend ordered the RedNet 3 and also the Mutec MC3+ usb.
 Planning to hook-up the Mutec to the RedNet 3 to take advantage of it's excellent 1G clock technology.
 Not sure how to put it all together so I guess there will be plenty of reading for me in the coming days.
 If this set-up works and I can get better SQ or even comparable to the Startech / F-1 then I'll be saying goodbye to USB and all it's quirks.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Hm. Ill have to build a cheap filter for the dc output. Too much spent already and dc purifier seems hard to find anyway.
> 
> Glad ur back!


 

 Thanks!  Yes you have to practically beg to buy one.  I have a source - Avatar Audio.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> @rb2013 Good to have you back!
> 
> I did over the weekend ordered the RedNet 3 and also the Mutec MC3+ usb.
> Planning to hook-up the Mutec to the RedNet 3 to take advantage of it's excellent 1G clock technology.
> ...


 

 Nice!  Well that will be interesting.  Man you are going to town!  Big bucks.
  
 Now you'll need to try a optical ethernet cable, and....


----------



## rw35

I can definitely vouch for optical Ethernet, particularly if the server end FMC is on an LPS (or other method of clean DC supply).


----------



## taxiq

Quick question:
  
 Is any burn in needed on the Elfi power filter or F-1 board?


----------



## wushuliu

taxiq said:


> Quick question:
> 
> Is any burn in needed on the Elfi power filter or F-1 board?




Yes


----------



## rb2013

Found this interesting post on the Mutec 3 + USB:
 http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3653
  


> Post subject: Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock
> 
> 
> Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:11 pm
> ...


 
  
 Some pics too:


----------



## rb2013

More Mutec 3 + USB porn:
  
 XMOS USB board:

  

  
 Meanwell SMPS PS

  
 Looks to be a 1GHz OXCO clock for audio


----------



## BucketInABucket

F1 has stopped working...weird. LEDs still light up fine, only there's no music...


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> F1 has stopped working...weird. LEDs still light up fine, only there's no music...


 

 Try a PC reboot


----------



## rb2013

Actually it looks like the Mutec 3 + USB XMOS board uses only XO clocks:


----------



## rw35

I'm rarely convinced with pro-audio gear, pro manufacturers tend to make silly short cuts and many think that audiophiles are OCD wierdos... well we are, that's why we often demand higher standards than pro's work to.
  
 I would deffo try with the Singxer SU-1 when it comes out, and feed that an LPS.


----------



## mourip

"After going back and comparing recently I decided to see if I could improve it any further and after seeing the Meanwell SMPS inside I went for a quick mod to add a Linear supply so as to bypass the 6.3v output from the internal PS.
 It was an easy mod to connect onto the output pins which transfer off the PS board down to the Main Board.

 It allows running the Mutec off the Linear supply by unplugging the mains in and switching on the 6.3v Linear supply which I have soldered to the plus / minus out coming off the internal PS.
 To go back to main supply I just disconnect the Linear and the unit is back to factory condition."
  
  
 I wonder if it a good idea to just connect the LPS to the output pins of the PS, or rather the input pins of the main board, without disconnecting the PS from the circuit?
  
 Seems like you would still have some parts of the PS operating as part of the circuit of the external LPS...


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> I'm rarely convinced with pro-audio gear, pro manufacturers tend to make silly short cuts and many think that audiophiles are OCD wierdos... well we are, that's why we often demand higher standards than pro's work to.
> 
> I would deffo try with the Singxer SU-1 when it comes out, and feed that an LPS.


 
 Well I agree on the proaudio gear mostly.  I have had good success with the RME FireFace 800 - back before USB 2.0 Async.  It was the only PC interface that could do 192k without hiccups.  It ran off a PCIe to 1394b firewire card.  I had good success with EMU 1616M - a CAT5 based card and box system.  I used it as the ADC to digitalize my LPs.
  
 The RME is selling today - even though 10yr old technology.
  
 It was us OCD'd Audio guys who came up with USB 2.0 Audio Async - not pro audio.  But they then adopted it  - with mild resentment - they abolutely hate latency.  When using plugins of different kinds (for different effects - they even have a 'tube' plugin - adding in 2nd order harmonic distortion), and running up to 70 different tracks simultaneously - latency can be a real problem.  Imagine on one of these huge digital mixing boards - trying to adjust the mix and having the sound change delayed when moving pots - must be maddening.
  


  
 The reports on the Mutec 3+ USB Smart Clock have been very good - but I think it's greatest strength is not as a USB interface - but as a SPDIF reclocker and/or a inexpensive studio master clock


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


>


 

 Yes that's what one person did - another just removed the SMPS completely.


----------



## Albrecht

+1
  
 It was a significant upgrade in SQ for me, (found $11 LPSs for the FMCs), - and much cheaper than a 30ft run of "audiophile" CAT6 RJ45 cable.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rw35

Still got 2 x EMU 1616Ms, they were 1st class back in their day.
  
 edit... that's 2 x 1212m and 1 x 1616m
  

  
  
 The outstanding EMU brand died after Creative got hold of it... who knows what they would have been doing now?


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Still got 2 x EMU 1616Ms, they were 1st class back in their day.
> 
> edit... that's 2 x 1212m and 1 x 1616m
> 
> ...


 

 Yes the 1616m used excellent 32 bit AKM ADCs - coupled with Steinberg WaveLab 6 - made some very good LP archives.  I did mine at 32bit, 176K sampling.  I still use it to digitalize the occasional LP purchase - have some nice new stuff on virgin vinyl.  That was before these major improvements to my digital stream.  Even great vinyl just can not compete now with Redbood WAV files upsampled with SoX.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi RB
  
 Sure am glad to see you back   
  
 Have you compared the Mutec to the F-1 yet?
  
 Apologies if I missed your previous post about the Mutec, and/or any comparisons
  
 After some run-in time on the F-1 & the microRendu, - both are humming along & sounding excellent into the APL. Herbie's little footers work well for vibration control & leveling.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi RB
> 
> Sure am glad to see you back
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!  Not yet - picking it up this afternoon.  So tonight some fun in store.
  
 I use Vibrapods under mine with 1/2 pound Brass weights on top - both the F-1 and Recovery.


----------



## Albrecht

I really owe you a debt of gratitude about this F-1!!
  
 Amazing step up from a HiFaceII, - without a doubt.....


----------



## hugoboss

for my all dac till now i can said like this
 the f1 is just like switching your tube amp from triode sound to ultra linear
 the f1 = ultra linear sound
  
 rb very good you are back !
 keep posting the good news bro


----------



## roger7

albrecht said:


> +1
> 
> It was a significant upgrade in SQ for me, (found $11 LPSs for the FMCs), - and much cheaper than a 30ft run of "audiophile" CAT6 RJ45 cable.
> 
> Cheers,


 
  
 What was a significant upgrade?


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> I really owe you a debt of gratitude about this F-1!!
> 
> Amazing step up from a HiFaceII, - without a doubt.....


 
 I agree - really amazing - esp for the price
  


hugoboss said:


> for my all dac till now i can said like this
> the f1 is just like switching your tube amp from triode sound to ultra linear
> the f1 = ultra linear sound
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks!


----------



## roger7

rw35 said:


> I'm rarely convinced with pro-audio gear, pro manufacturers tend to make silly short cuts and many think that audiophiles are OCD wierdos... well we are, that's why we often demand higher standards than pro's work to.
> 
> I would deffo try with the Singxer SU-1 when it comes out, and feed that an LPS.


 
 It also goes opposite way.
 Audiophiles gears are often overpriced and cheeper pro-audio gears offer the same SQ or even better for less money.
 For example yellowtec puc


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 Moving to 2 TP-Link MC200mc Fiber Media Converters....
  
 Sorry, - I should've put R_Ws post in quotes...
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> It also goes opposite way.
> Audiophiles gears are often overpriced and cheeper pro-audio gears offer the same SQ or even better for less money.
> For example yellowtec puc


 

 Good Point.
  
 Well they are designed for different uses - but do overlap.  Good to have both to drive innovation - like AES67.
  
 For me latency, unless it's SQ related, is not an issue.
  
 Not all audiophile gear is overpriced - like the F-1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I remember how the Studio engineers would sneer at the mention of a audiophile cable - digital, analog or otherwise.  I think many have rethought that.
  
 And the infamous Society of Audio Engineers famous whitepaper (and offical stance) that PCM 96k was all one needed for 'perfect' digital reproduction.  Anything beyond that was a total waist of time and money.  Wow!  I see 192k and even DxD 354k in a lot of studio gear these days...


----------



## rw35

roger7 said:


> It also goes opposite way.
> Audiophiles gears are often overpriced and cheeper pro-audio gears offer the same SQ or even better for less money.
> For example yellowtec puc


 

 Yellowtec is the exception rather than the rule, most pro audio is ordinary.
  
 Obviously don't discount Pro out of hand, but it rarely eclipses domestic.
  
 Most studios are wired poorly, by people who don't even know good SQ when they hear it, both of my studios were/are wired fully in Van Damme, with the black/gold Neutrik jacks.
  
 Anyway not preaching, just my 2p based on pro experience.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Yellowtec is the exception rather than the rule, most pro audio is ordinary.
> 
> Obviously don't discount Pro out of hand, but it rarely eclipses domestic.
> 
> ...


 

 And look at what monitors studios used to use - JBL!
  
 I had a pair of JBL's as my first speakers - it took a year for the ringing in my ears to go away after I moved to Kef 105.2's.  Still have those beauties!  Just shined them up to sell - anybody in the Seattle are need a great pair of starter speakers - super cheap (PM me).  They sound great for their age.


----------



## BucketInABucket

rb2013 said:


> Try a PC reboot




Still doesn't work, could the XMOS chip be damaged by static due to being an exposed board? :/


----------



## juanitox

roger7 said:


> What was a significant upgrade?


 

 i have made the mods of linear power supply on my  MC3 usb ,  don"r think it brings something more but i didn't want to pollute the MicroRendu deeding it.  
 but what i found is that both device improved with a power  isolation transformer before it .    the only drawback i have found on the Mutec is that it can't output i2S signal ( or i don't find it ).  and that"s why i'm interested by the F1.
 as i will probably never get soon the F1 i have a DIhink DXD 384 on order too to stay busy


----------



## Albrecht

> the only drawback i have found on the Mutec is that it can't output i2S signal ( or i don't find it ).  and that"s why i'm interested by the F1.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 I would've never bought the F-1 if I was running I2s. (I2s would be a job for the Sig Rendu).
  
 Not having the I2s connector attached to the board would've caused me to buy another product. I could solder the I2s HDMI connector to the pins, but I couldn't install the connector to the board.
  
 For sure though, i am a horrible soldererer


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Subscribing as I've handed off the Mutec MC3+ USB to RB2013 for auditioning and comparison! Really looking forward to his findings!


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Still doesn't work, could the XMOS chip be damaged by static due to being an exposed board? :/


 

 Very unlikely - did you lay it on top of anything metal when running?
  
 Try uninstalling the driver then reinstalling it.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> Subscribing as I've handed off the Mutec MC3+ USB to RB2013 for auditioning and comparison! Really looking forward to his findings!


 

 OK Home now - let the DDC rolling begin!


----------



## REXNFX

rb2013 said:


> Yes the 1616m used excellent 32 bit AKM ADCs - coupled with Steinberg WaveLab 6 - made some very good LP archives.  I did mine at 32bit, 176K sampling.  I still use it to digitalize the occasional LP purchase - have some nice new stuff on virgin vinyl.  That was before these major improvements to my digital stream.  Even great vinyl just can not compete now with Redbood WAV files upsampled with SoX.


 
 Hi rb, can you give a complete list of your source components (software&hardware) that makes redbook equal vinyl and an example of a recording you've used to compare the two? Cheers much!


----------



## rb2013

Alright a few hours listen to the Mutec mc-3 + Smart Clock USB:
  
 Here are my initial impressions:
 Really nice!  Sweet sound - massive sound stage.  Deep defined bass.
 I understand it is fully burned in - I will run it for a few more days to let it settle in.
  
 Now versus the F-1 (with my uber LPS and 1GB LAN Iso ICRON/Startech) I much prefer the F-1.  Greater detail and even deeper bass and better defined soundstage.   In comparison the Mutec sounds a bit veiled.  Now this F-1 system (as the way I have it set up - it's so much more the just the F-1) - is super detailed.  Esp with the ICRON/Startech.
  
 I made change tonight to the ICRON/Startech set-up after about an hour of listening to the Mutec.  I replaced the iPower SMPS feeding the PPA V2 card (which in turn powers 1/2 the Startech set-up - the LEX side) with my LPS TeraDak X1/X2 (modded with Nichicon HW caps) - this made a subtle, but noticeable improvement in all aspects of the SQ - but most noticeable in an even deeper bass depth (my Maggies are sounding like Kef's now!) and an even greater focus to the sound staging.
  
 Now going back from the Mutec - not even close.  Veiled and lacking in the bass energy the F-1 combo is now producing.
  
 So I though I would try the Mutec with the ICRON/Startech in the data stream - could not get it to work.  The Mutec just couldn't see the PC through the GB LAN USB extender.  Tried every trick in the book - reboots, reinstalls, etc...
  
 It appears the Mutec needs a USB 5VDC power to handshake - even though it is AC powered.  So I tried sending it power  - no go.  So in my comparison - the Mutec is run from the PPA V2 PCIe USB card.
  
 I next tried just the iPurifier2 between the Mutec and the 2g cable - no go.  Would not get recognized.
  
 Tried the W4S Recovery ext powered - no go as well.  Too bad - as I would love to hear the Mutec with these other USB devices.  I will try with a non-split USB cable to see if that works.  I have no trouble running the split 2G (with both data and power legs plugged into the PPA V2) - the Mutec works fine.  Very strange.  I'm using a new iCore7 WIN10 server.
  
 The F-1 works with any and all of these - even all at once (the best SQ).
  
 So I have to download the manual and read the thing.
  
 I also would like to try the Mutec fed by the F-1 using it as a SPDIF reclocker.
  
 More tomorrow.


----------



## rb2013

rexnfx said:


> Hi rb, can you give a complete list of your source components (software&hardware) that makes redbook equal vinyl and an example of a recording you've used to compare the two? Cheers much!


 

 Sure:
 Just the data chain:
PC>PPA V2 USB card (TeraDak X1 - Nichicon HW caps)>Forza Twin Copper Split USB cable>iPurifier2>Startech LEX>BJC CAT6 UTP 550Mhz>Startech REX (with one Jitterbug - Breeze 24VDC LPS+DC iPurifer)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data only leg)>W4S Recovery(TeraDak LPS DC-30W+Cerious Graphene PC+ DC iPurifier)>Curious 200mm USB Link>F-1>AS Statement Silver SPDIF>APL DAC
  
Well I have about 200 Rock, Vocal and Jazz LPs with matching Redbook files form CD's - some with corresponding SACD's as well.  Take Norah Jones 'Come Away With Me' or Zepplin IV or Florence and the Machine 'Dog Days', or Keith Jarrett 'The Koln Concert', or Chic Corea and the Return to Forever - 'Romantic Warrior', or....
  
PS - PC:iCore7 4790 - 12GB Ram - WIN10. El Fidelity SATA and CPU fan filter, PPA V2 PCIe USb card, Seasonic fanless high PSRR PS, etc...Software Foobar 2000V1.2.9 Dither on buffer 1000ms, JPlay 6.2 UltraStream (KS sourced), SoX upsampler to 192k alaising yes, quality Very High, Passband 95%, Phase Response 50% Linear.  All Redbook burned from CD using EAC Secure Mode, Test and Copy Uncompressed, Accurip ISO verified, WAV files.


----------



## REXNFX

rb2013 said:


> Sure:
> Just the data chain:
> PC>PPA V2 USB card (TeraDak X1 - Nichicon HW caps)>Forza Twin Copper Split USB cable>iPurifier2>Startech LEX>BJC CAT6 UTP 550Mhz>Startech REX (with one Jitterbug - Breeze 24VDC LPS)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data only leg)>W4S Recovery>Curious 200mm USB Link>F-1>AS Statement Silver SPDIF>APL DAC
> 
> ...


 
 Great! and the software player and upsampling setting (i guess you have wav files)?


----------



## rb2013

I'm thinking my next step might have to be a Paul Hynes S3 for the Recovery to feed the F-1 and/or maybe one of these for the PPA2:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teradak-Wadia-Di122-toroidal-transformer-HiFi-linear-power-supply-5V-5A-/262222465131?hash=item3d0dad486b:g:gOMAAOSwYIhWiTNG


----------



## REXNFX

rb2013 said:


> Sure:
> Just the data chain:
> PC>PPA V2 USB card (TeraDak X1 - Nichicon HW caps)>Forza Twin Copper Split USB cable>iPurifier2>Startech LEX>BJC CAT6 UTP 550Mhz>Startech REX (with one Jitterbug - Breeze 24VDC LPS+DC iPurifer)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data only leg)>W4S Recovery(TeraDak LPS DC-30W+Cerious Graphene PC+ DC iPurifier)>Curious 200mm USB Link>F-1>AS Statement Silver SPDIF>APL DAC
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks a bunch. In the same way 'you can't be a little bit pregnant' I think music can't sound a little bit analog, it does or it doesn't. Do you know at what point in your upgrade path you achieved  'analog' sound'? I'm trying to work out if I need to follow all your steps or can simplify a bit...


----------



## rb2013

rexnfx said:


> Thanks a bunch. In the same way 'you can't be a little bit pregnant' I think music can't sound a little bit analog, it does or it doesn't. Do you know at what point in your upgrade path you achieved  'analog' sound'? I'm trying to work out if I need to follow all your steps or can simplify a bit...


 
 Well I have a very, very long history with analog - culminating in a near sota $30K rig (and that was JUST the cart, table, phono pre, step transformers, and cables).
  
 So to me a 'analog' sound is pretty broad - as you move up the ladder the sound of course gets better - but starts to approach some of the great things excellent digital does - like a quiet background, deep and defined bass, etc... While at the same time doing what analog does best even better like holographic sound staging, musicality, tonal warmth and excellent micro and macro dynamics. 
  
 So with that uber analog system as my litmus test - and what I have been trying to achieve with digital for 10 yrs since downsizing (to a still really excellent analog system today) - I finally achieved - but not just that - SURPASSED it!   By miles!  Now in a more complex view - analog, even totl analog will usually retain a euphonic warmth.  Not realistic but pleasing.  My uber system had two MC carts - the Dynavector XV-1S for truth - and the Benz Ebony LP for euphonics.  There are some other totl MC carts that are even treble rich - anti-euphonic (the totl ClearAudio, Lyra and XYZ) and some super euphonic like the noted Koetsu.  I had them all.
  
 So analog could be dry and 'clean' like digital or wet and euphonic like you expect analog to sound.  I stayed with the Dyna and Benz because they were mostly neutralish, balanced let's say.
  
 So to answer your question - the crossover was the F-1 and ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso USB extender combination - along with 3 LPS's and a host of iStuff.  Good cables as well after  rolling many.  I would not want to remove anything - but the LPS's are must have, as is the DC iPur and Recovery - the Startech a must.  I'm wondering of course about the PS Audio LANRover - is it going to be better?
  
 Right now the sound is really not analog or digital - it's in it's own class.   Supremely musical with a warm, rich natural tone - unlike any digital I have heard.  And just amazing dynamic energy!- also very undigital (digital has always sounded a bit restrained compared to the very best analog MC sound). 
 Sound staging, focus and clarity beyond any analog system I have had or heard - or digital.
  
 It's the whole package.  But after adding these two cheap LPS's to the ICRON/Startech and the effect - has me convinced that with digital having a very clean power supply is so critical.  I have never had that effect with amps, pre-amps, or analog gear.  So I think there is further to go on this path - just better LPS's.  How much better can it get? 
 If not one speck further - I'd be totally satisfied right here - a decade long journey complete.  Mission accomplished.


----------



## REXNFX

rb2013 said:


> Well I have a very, very long history with analog - culminating in a near sota $30K rig (and that was JUST the cart, table, phono pre, step transformers, and cables).
> 
> So to me a 'analog' sound is pretty broad - as you move up the ladder the sound of course gets better - but starts to approach some of the great things excellent digital does - like a quiet background, deep and defined bass, etc... While at the same time doing what analog does best even better like holographic sound staging, musicality, tonal warmth and excellent micro and macro dynamics.
> 
> ...


 
 If I get the same results I will be recommending you for a Knighthood! One last question, would be interested if you've tried playing Redbook with your new hardware without upsampling? (always been unimpressed with upsampling)


----------



## wushuliu

rb2013 said:


> Well I have a very, very long history with analog - culminating in a near sota $30K rig (and that was JUST the cart, table, phono pre, step transformers, and cables).
> 
> So to me a 'analog' sound is pretty broad - as you move up the ladder the sound of course gets better - but starts to approach some of the great things excellent digital does - like a quiet background, deep and defined bass, etc... While at the same time doing what analog does best even better like holographic sound staging, musicality, tonal warmth and excellent micro and macro dynamics.
> 
> ...




You mentioned you are familiar with chokes. So have you tried a 193l or m plugged into the wall?


----------



## hugoboss

@rb2013
  
 i understand power quality is very important, but how about dac that not required usb 5volt like audio gd
 did it still benefit using linear power supplies for the usb cable
 my experience with audio gd and ifi iusb 3 , with only usb data cable (no power and ground cable only data)
 it's almost sound the same like with ifi or no ifi in chain.
  
 so in my case the sound from pc usb to ifi to f1 to audio gd coaxial is almost same like pc usb direct to f1 to audiogd.
 btw your dac does it require 5volt usb power?


----------



## somestranger26

hugoboss said:


> @rb2013
> 
> i understand power quality is very important, but how about dac that not required usb 5volt like audio gd
> did it still benefit using linear power supplies for the usb cable
> ...


 

 If you're using the F-1, then you're using 5V USB power regardless of your DAC. The fact that the Audio-GD USB inputs don't use 5V USB power has no bearing on using an external DDC.


----------



## rw35

rb,
  
 Interesting report re the Mutec, (it was never really 'on my list') - I suspect its psu might be a weak link, pro audio guys don't usually concern themselves with OCD PSUs.
  
 Just goes to show how good the F-1 is for the money, you did us all (and Singxer it seems) a great service by finding that little beauty and sharing the knowledge.
  
 I will most likely try the SU-1 when it comes out., try its internal LPS first and then get another Swagman SE LPS for it. Fraction of the price of the Berkeley Alpha USB and I bet it either matches or surpasses it.


----------



## rb2013

rexnfx said:


> If I get the same results I will be recommending you for a Knighthood! One last question, would be interested if you've tried playing Redbook with your new hardware without upsampling? (always been unimpressed with upsampling)


 

 Yes of course - I have three upsamplers for Foobar SRC (Secret Rabbit Code), SSRC (Super Secret Rabbit Code) and SourceForge SoX.  SoX is by far the best.  Now on my native digitalized LPs and SACD's done at 32bit float 176k - i don't upsample.  But for Redbook on my APL DAC 192k is the best.  My modded DAC60 as well - but the W4S Remedy SPDIF (Crystek CCHD575) reclocker down samples to 96k.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> You mentioned you are familiar with chokes. So have you tried a 193l or m plugged into the wall?


 

 I used a Hammond 159 10 Henry choke to replace a critical PS resistor in my DAC 60 mod project to good effect.  At the wall I use a SR TeslaPlex, then a Audience aR1p AC line conditioner and balancer.  In my office system a Richard Gray RGPC 400 Pro.  Additionally - the PC, DDC and DAC are on separate Art Audio PB4X4Pro AC Line Filters and Isolators.  These provide 40dB of AC line noise reject (esp at high freq) common and differetail mode filters.


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> @rb2013
> 
> i understand power quality is very important, but how about dac that not required usb 5volt like audio gd
> did it still benefit using linear power supplies for the usb cable
> ...


 
 I would recommend your DAC to be on a separate AC Line (or at least on a AC lIne isolator) - so it's not just the DC voltage that need to be pure but the AC as well.  For the F-1 to DAC SPDIF coax connection - the cable is critical (best to use a 1.5m length to reduce back wave reflections)
  


rw35 said:


> rb,
> 
> Interesting report re the Mutec, (it was never really 'on my list') - I suspect its psu might be a weak link, pro audio guys don't usually concern themselves with OCD PSUs.
> 
> ...


 
 Reading through the Mutec manual last night  - I believe they choose the SMPS for it mult-voltage ability.  LPS's have to be set for a certain voltage - or wound for maybe two.
 On the Tir Na HiFi and CA Mutec 3+ threads - a few folks have mentioned running a LPS feed improved the sound considerably.  So just hot wired it, others yanked the SMPS out completely.


----------



## rb2013

Well speaking of the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB - I found some interesting things out last night.
  
 It has been designed for true USB galvanic isolation - at the board level.  I believe this is why it's incompatible with the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso USB extender (galvanic isolation).
  
 I could not get it to work with either the W4S Recovery ahead in the data chain  - or the iPurifier2.  The GI of the Mutec must be blocking the ground from the PC.
  
 Anyway this is really too bad - as it on it's own sounds really good.  I wanted to hear it with some of the USB gizmos, esp the GB LAN.
  
 After many more hours listening  - it just does not compete with the F-1 / GB LAN Iso combination.  It is a very nifty device and can do many things simultaneously - fine in a studio - but of no use to me.  I think for a $1000 - you can get pretty much the entire data chain I have with the F-1.
  
 Tonight I will give it another listen and try it as just a SPDIF reclocker.
  
 BTW the Mutec is being fed from a Cerious Graphene Extreme power cord and a separate PB4X4Pro running from the aR1p.
  
 Also note the Mutec XMOS card is nothing to fancy - U-8, XO clocks, etc...


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Yes of course - I have three upsamplers for Foobar SRC (Secret Rabbit Code), SSRC (Super Secret Rabbit Code) and SourceForge SoX.  SoX is by far the best.  Now on my native digitalized LPs and SACD's done at 32bit float 176k - i don't upsample.  But for Redbook on my APL DAC 192k is the best.  My modded DAC60 as well - but the W4S Remedy SPDIF (Crystek CCHD575) reclocker down samples to 96k.




There is a big improvement u can do with the player.

Google up bug head emperror or infinity blade. It is another BIG improvement to the sound ..


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> There is a big improvement u can do with the player.
> 
> Google up bug head emperror or infinity blade. It is another BIG improvement to the sound ..


 

 Thanks will check that out - of course their the Fidelizer stuff - installing and uninstalling all these various XMOS drivers and getting them to work is already a nightmare.  If I had a nickel for every PC reboot!  I could pay for my system - I counted 20 yesterday alone.  Trying to get the Mutec to work with USB gizmos.  Then reinstalling them with the F-1.
  
 At some more stable point in this project will give Fido a try.
  
 Oh and there is W2012 - not going to give MS any more of my money.  WIN10 sounds pretty good and came with my $450 Costco base iCore7 Haswell box.


----------



## wushuliu

Ok, awesome. The 193L/M choke tweak is based on the Richard Gray conditioners. Someone opened one up a long while back and found they used similar chokes. Not sure if the performance is the same as the Richard Gray, but the chokes work phenomenally for digital and video sources and my biggest bang for the buck conditioning (at least back when the chokes were only $30, they're like 80 now). Sounds like you are covered though!


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> There is a big improvement u can do with the player.
> 
> Google up bug head emperror or infinity blade. It is another BIG improvement to the sound ..


 

 Oh those are new players - not interested at all - nor will I load each album on a USB stick - or any other gymnastics.  I like Foobar, is extremely flexible, and sounds awesome to me and I have over 45 custom built play lists.
  
 Tried Winamp, dbPoweramp, Jriver, XXHighEnd, etc.. Love Foobar.
  
 It seems like there is a half dozen new PC players each month...not going there.
  
 BTW:
 https://www.audioholics.com/how-to-shop/best-audiophile-music-software/2
Hi-Res Music Playback Software Comparison On Foobar: Good enough for me.


> *Ratings:*
> Customer Support: 7.5 (have to rely on friendly forum folks)
> User Interface: 9
> Subjective Sound Quality: 10


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Ok, awesome. The 193L/M choke tweak is based on the Richard Gray conditioners. Someone opened one up a long while back and found they used similar chokes. Not sure if the performance is the same as the Richard Gray, but the chokes work phenomenally for digital and video sources and my biggest bang for the buck conditioning (at least back when the chokes were only $30, they're like 80 now). Sounds like you are covered though!


 

 The Gray's are very good and do not limit dynamics - always a bug a boo for the AC conditioners I have heard, like the PS Audio.
  
 I run my amps direct to the wall.


----------



## rb2013

Speaking of dynamics - playing around last night with Mutec and F-1 - I found this.
  
 Now with LPS's on both the LEX and REX of the GB LAN setup - the sound has become noticibly more organic and warm (analogish?) - so I tried removing the one Jitterbug from the back of the REX.
  
 Wow!  A nice increase in micro dynamics.  The sound with these LPS's in the set-up had increase in energy and dynamics  - but now at an extrodinary level.  But most important no loss of warmth, musiclaity, smoothness, lack of grain or etch.  Greater detail as well.  So out goes at least one USB gizmo.
  
 I have a 5VDC iPower available for sale - it was on the LEX and now replaced by the TeraDak LPS.  So PM if interested.  They are very good - but not as good as a LPS with a nice power chord, and esp if you add a DC iPurifier.  It would make a good started for someone using a split USB cable and the F-1.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> ...
> BTW:
> https://www.audioholics.com/how-to-shop/best-audiophile-music-software/2
> Hi-Res Music Playback Software Comparison On Foobar: Good enough for me.


 
 This reviewer must have cloth-ears or a low-fi system. The results are laughable.
 But lets not go there any further, these discussions are worse than (but comparable to) cable discussions.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> This reviewer must have cloth-ears or a low-fi system. The results are laughable.
> But lets not go there any further, these discussions are worse than (but comparable to) cable discussions.


 

 Agreed!  I might have some wax but no cloth in mine and Foobar just rocks - don't think $2000 invested in just my DDC chain is low fi?


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> I run my amps direct to the wall.


 
  
 Absolutely... amps to the wall, all source via quality conditioner or regenerator (preferred).
  
 ps, on your advice I put everything else (all non hi-fi kit in the lounge) on a separate Furman Pro DMC E conditioner to further isolate, system really is performing extremely well at the moment.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Absolutely... amps to the wall, all source via quality conditioner or regenerator (preferred).
> 
> ps, on your advice I put everything else (all non hi-fi kit in the lounge) on a separate Furman Pro DMC E conditioner to further isolate, system really is performing extremely well at the moment.


 

 Great to hear that helped.  I guess all these femto clocks - the heart of digital playback are ultra sensitive to power noise both AC and DC.
  
 Reminds me of mechanical isolation in analog - that payed off big time there.


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Great to hear that helped.  I guess all these femto clocks - the heart of digital playback are ultra sensitive to power noise both AC and DC.
> 
> Reminds me of mechanical isolation in analog - that payed off big time there.


 

 Not that we want to bring that fella up, but the TV sounds a bit warmer too LOL


----------



## wushuliu

rb2013 said:


> Oh those are new players - not interested at all - nor will I load each album on a USB stick - or any other gymnastics.  I like Foobar, is extremely flexible, and sounds awesome to me and I have over 45 custom built play lists.
> 
> Tried Winamp, dbPoweramp, Jriver, XXHighEnd, etc.. Love Foobar.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Interesting. Never could get into Foobar. Always end up going back to Jplay or MQN.


ccschua said:


> There is a big improvement u can do with the player.
> 
> Google up bug head emperror or infinity blade. It is another BIG improvement to the sound ..


 
  
 I've tried Bug Head/Infinity Blade, but so far for me it's about on par with Jplay and WAY more complicated to use. I'm probably not doing something right, but since there's no real manual and infinite settings, I just gave up. MQN is also excellent but like Bug Head it becomes a full time job just keeping up with the updates and settings changes.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Not that we want to bring that fella up, but the TV sounds a bit warmer too LOL


 

 You're bad!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I find that Showtime has better fidelity than HBO, except when game of thrones comes on. They record in analog format..


----------



## wushuliu

RB, did you ever get a soekris dac? I have one on the way to put together...


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Interesting. Never could get into Foobar. Always end up going back to Jplay or MQN.
> 
> I've tried Bug Head/Infinity Blade, but so far for me it's about on par with Jplay and WAY more complicated to use. I'm probably not doing something right, but since there's no real manual and infinite settings, I just gave up. MQN is also excellent but like Bug Head it becomes a full time job just keeping up with the updates and settings changes.


 

 Well I have the $600 Steinberg WaveLab 6.0 too - I used for my LP ADC archiving project.  It has some very nice 'crystal upsamplers' - honestly the difference over Foobar/SoX was so small it was not worth the effort to load each album manually.
  
 I even tried to upsample in WaveLab 6.0 and save the upsampled 192k file.  This way the upsampling was not done on the fly - made no difference.
  
 I hear HQPlayer is good as well - but for me just not worth the hassle.  Not when I can plug in a $100 LPS and hear an amazing improvement in sound.
  
 Now in vinyl - a different story - many of my LPs were 200gm QUIEX SV-P pressings.  These are amazing LPs - near dead quite back grounds.  They go for $100 a LP today, if you can find them.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> I find that Showtime has better fidelity than HBO, except when game of thrones comes on. They record in analog format..


 

 How do you get the vinyl through those cable wires?


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> RB, did you ever get a soekris dac? I have one on the way to put together...


 

 No - if you read in the early part of my Soekris thread - I abandoned the project.  The use of lower end SiTime clocks with very high jitter - was a big turn off.  That and the lack of an easy DIY true 6922 tube output option (not a big opamp fan).  I went the Lite DAC60 mod route instead.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Moon Audio dragon cable. 





rb2013 said:


> How do you get the vinyl through those cable wires?


----------



## rw35

Wavelab rocks, it's my go to post production editor.
  
 ps, where did you get that pic of me from?


----------



## rw35

Update on F-1... W4S have sent me a 'rev c' Recovery board that will hopefully work with it... then I can do a proper comparison. Anyone with the 1st edition Recovery might have problems powering the F-1. They fixed the power cut out issue some months ago however.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Wavelab rocks, it's my go to post production editor.
> 
> ps, where did you get that pic of me from?


 

 It was the best I could find at the time.  Except for that damn dongle.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Update on F-1... W4S have sent me a 'rev c' Recovery board that will hopefully work with it... then I can do a proper comparison. Anyone with the 1st edition Recovery might have problems powering the F-1. They fixed the power cut out issue some months ago however.


 

 Yes the regulators were overheating  - I have the rev c as well.  Running at 9VDC without issue for months now


----------



## rw35

That's very good to hear, W4S weren't aware of the F-1 so were a bit uncertain if it would fix the issue... I was always fairly confident it would. They released the Recovery just a little too early I think.


----------



## Albrecht

Wow,
  
 Very interesting and a great catch on the Mutec. It makes total sense.
  
 Even if it was tremendous quality & equaled or surpassed the F-1, - one still has to deal with it's price
  
 I think that after the Gustard, Breeze, & Pro4a, Singxer, and F-1, - the days of paying north of $500 for USB/SPDIF converters are over. Especially if one upgrades to some of the new DAC tech out there, - that more and more, has "good" internal USB inputs.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> That's very good to hear, W4S weren't aware of the F-1 so were a bit uncertain if it would fix the issue... I was always fairly confident it would. They released the Recovery just a little too early I think.


 

 Yes they did - fortunately they have great customer service and replaced anybody's board who sent it back.  It should make a nice improvement to your F-1.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Wow,
> 
> Very interesting and a great catch on the Mutec. It makes total sense.
> 
> ...


 

 Boy you are spot on!  This game is moving so fast.  I remember the Musiland Monitor 3.0 and how HiFiDunio went nuts over it!
 https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/and-the-musiland-03-usd/


 Then the Gustard came along - now look at where we are with the F-1...all for around $200.  Yes there was the Tanly - but is was $600.


----------



## taxiq

Recieved Nobsound Efildelity USB boster with external power filter.  Installed hardware per instruction, Windows reported unknown USB device on system.  Needless to say it didn't work.  
  
 Nobsound's instructions made  no mention of any drivers being needed in.   But are there drivers that need to be loaded?
  
 If not, looks like Amazon is going to be called upon to .  .  . do their duty.


----------



## wushuliu

taxiq said:


> Recieved Nobsound Efildelity USB boster with external power filter.  Installed hardware per instruction, Windows reported unknown USB device on system.  Needless to say it didn't work.
> 
> Nobsound's instructions made  no mention of any drivers being needed in.   But are there drivers that need to be loaded?
> 
> If not, looks like Amazon is going to be called upon to .  .  . do their duty.


 
  
 Weird. I didn't have to install anything for my USB 3 version...


----------



## taxiq

My Nobo has same old USB 2.0 cables and sockets that have been around for years.  And, come to think of it so has my computer.  So they match, but something is not right.  
  
 FWIW, there is no marking on anything to effect it is anything other than a USB device which would assume 2.0 compatible.
  
 In any event .  .  . no work.


----------



## Muziqboy

Just an update on the RedNet 3!

So I got it this morning and hooked it up to the NUC computer via the supplied CAT6 cable. It was not easy trying to get it configured but after about a couple of hours fuzzing around with it, i finally got it to communicate with the PC. I had to map Channels 1 & 2 from the NUC to the RN3 and finally I got music playing on the Headphones.

Now I have been listening to the Startech / F-1 combo in my rig for almost a month and was very impressed with the SQ.
Really, I have never heard my system sound this good before.

BUT after hearing a couple of tracks with the RedNet 3 in place, I just sat still and my jaw just dropped! SQ took another leap up. The shimmer of the cymbals, The slap of the fingers on the Upright Bass fretboards, The drumstick hits on the rim and heads of the snare drum, all sounded scary real. Man! Realism was just off the charts!
This was just after getting it configured and listening to 2 tracks! No burn-in whatsoever!

I have a strong feeling that the SQ improvement is a result of totally eliminating the USB out of the chain. From JRiver, the signal gets transmitted straight out of the ethernet into Layer3 IP packets so there is no noise ( galvanic isolation ) and degradation of the signal.

I was also supposed to get a Mutec MC-3+ USB so that I could use it's supposedly excellent 1G clocking technology and piggyback it to the RedNet 3 but I was told that it was on backorder and won't get it until the 6th of June. But as it is right now with just the RedNet 3 in the chain, this thing is putting a big smile on my face and will definitely be replacing the Startech / F-1 combo.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Just an update on the RedNet 3!
> 
> So I got it this morning and hooked it up to the NUC computer via the supplied CAT6 cable. It was not easy trying to get it configured but after about a couple of hours fuzzing around with it, i finally got it to communicate with the PC. I had to map Channels 1 & 2 from the NUC to the RN3 and finally I got music playing on the Headphones.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!  AES67 is the future.  It did come with a Dante permanent license, right?
  
 I imagine with the Mutec 1G clock another level crossed.
  
 You got me wanting one!


----------



## wushuliu

Does it matter which RedNet? Does it have to be the 3?


----------



## mourip

muziqboy said:


> Just an update on the RedNet 3!...
> 
> ...I have a strong feeling that the SQ improvement is a result of totally eliminating the USB out of the chain. From JRiver, the signal gets transmitted straight out of the ethernet into Layer3 IP packets so there is no noise ( galvanic isolation ) and degradation of the signal.


 
  
 So help me understand the layout. Audio server ethernet port out via cat6 cable to RedNet 3 box and then AES/SPDIF out to DAC? Could I could have my server in one room and the RedNet 3 and DAC etc in another room?
  
 The big question is could I have just one PC connect by USB directly to a local DAC and still function via RedNet to another DAC in another system perhaps changing audio output via JRiver? 
  
 Costs about $1000?
  
 Seems like a lot of potential here!


----------



## mhamel

wushuliu said:


> Does it matter which RedNet? Does it have to be the 3?


 
  
 No. I'm using the RedNet D16 AES with the same result.


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  AES67 is the future.  It did come with a Dante permanent license, right?
> 
> I imagine with the Mutec 1G clock another level crossed.
> 
> You got me wanting one!


 

 Yes. It does come with 1 DVS permanent license.


----------



## Muziqboy

mourip said:


> So help me understand the layout. Audio server ethernet port out via cat6 cable to RedNet 3 box and then AES/SPDIF out to DAC? Could I could have my server in one room and the RedNet 3 and DAC etc in another room?
> 
> The big question is could I have just one PC connect by USB directly to a local DAC and still function via RedNet to another DAC in another system perhaps changing audio output via JRiver?
> 
> ...


 

 Quick answer is:
 Yes. I believe if I'm not mistaken, the distance limit is 100meters for Gigabit Ethernet
 Yes. PC->USB->Local DAC or PC->RedNet 3 or D16->DAC just change the Audio Driver (Pick Your Poison)


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Agreed!  I might have some wax but no cloth in mine and Foobar just rocks - don't think $2000 invested in just my DDC chain is low fi?


 
 Money spent doesn't impress me, my LPS alone cost more than that, as did my previous DDC. The F1 just overtakes it, so the F1 is very good VFM.
  
 Let us just say there is room for improvement for those using Foobar, and leave it at that.


----------



## rw35

Good news about RedNet, would be nice if they made a neat compact 2 channel version for audiophiles.
  
 Focusrite are a good pro audio company, founded by the legend that is Rupert Neve.
  
 At some point I will be changing all of the audio I/O in my studio and have been looking at RedNet / Antelope Orion+ as contenders.
  
 LAN audio does make a lot of sense for both multi and 2ch audio, so maybe now RedNet is 1st on my list.


----------



## rw35

jabbr said:


> Money spent doesn't impress me, my LPS alone cost more than that, as did my previous DDC. The F1 just overtakes it, so the F1 is very good VFM.
> 
> Let us just say there is room for improvement for those using Foobar, and leave it at that.


 

 Which LPS costs over $2k? That doesn't sound like a particularly good value proposition to me, would quite like to see what's inside that box.


----------



## DObleX

What about using F1 and X1 as is (without any additional devices) and use standard USB cables versus Breeze U8?
 PC>F1>DAC vs PC>Breeze>DAC - if F1 will be better, so does it worth additional $67?
 PC>X1>DAC vs PC>Breeze>DAC - same price, so same sound quality or one of them will be better?


----------



## jabbr

rw35 said:


> Which LPS costs over $2k? That doesn't sound like a particularly good value proposition to me, would quite like to see what's inside that box.


 
 This is a top of the line 4-rail Paul Hynes, made to specifications.


----------



## rw35

jabbr said:


> This is a top of the line 4-rail Paul Hynes, made to specifications.


 

 I've heard good of his work.
  
 Just looked on his site and his SR1's, which he says "designed to exceed the performance of all other supplies currently available" are £180 each (seems good value to me), so 4 of those would come in at £720, which is circa half of $2000. I'm still struggling with the value proposition of your 4 rail LPS.
  
 Not being a smart ass, just inquisitive as I asked Swagman Labs to make me a custom SE+ model LPS and rather than take my money he said there is nothing else worth doing after his SE edition.


----------



## mourip

doblex said:


> What about using F1 and X1 as is (without any additional devices) and use standard USB cables versus Breeze U8?
> PC>F1>DAC vs PC>Breeze>DAC - if F1 will be better, so does it worth additional $67?
> PC>X1>DAC vs PC>Breeze>DAC - same price, so same sound quality or one of them will be better?


 
  
 +1
  
 I am still hoping for a revised ranking list with costs included. It is true that the F1 is relatively inexpensive by itself and great after you add on all of the other pieces in but at that point are you not in used Berkeley USB territory?
  
 The RedNet/AES67 is the one I would hold out the most hope for especially if someone starts making a similar device with fewer channels and a correspondingly lower price!


----------



## wushuliu

I dont see an audiophile rednet being that much cheaper honestly...


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Money spent doesn't impress me, my LPS alone cost more than that, as did my previous DDC. The F1 just overtakes it, so the F1 is very good VFM.
> 
> Let us just say there is room for improvement for those using Foobar, and leave it at that.


 

 I bow to the master....


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Good news about RedNet, would be nice if they made a neat compact 2 channel version for audiophiles.
> 
> Focusrite are a good pro audio company, founded by the legend that is Rupert Neve.
> 
> ...


 

 I still have some question on clocking as raised in the CA thread on Audio over IP.  Anybody know what kind of clocks in the REDNET 3?  A board photo would be great!


----------



## roger7

@rb
 If you could be so kind and compare these simplified setups:
 PC->regular USB port(no PPA)>split usb cable(LH or Forza) with Teradak DC30W and DC iPurifier>F1
 vs.
 PC->regular USB port(no PPA)>split usb cable(LH or Forza) with possibly Teradak DC30W and DC iPurifier (I don't know if Mutec needs 5v) >Mutec


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> This is a top of the line 4-rail Paul Hynes, made to specifications.


 

 A Uptone JC-2 is $925 and has multi rails - doubt the PH is much better...but hey it's your money.  Or you could buy 3 PH SR3's for less and get isolation - they're $438 each
  
 http://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply


----------



## roger7

rw35 said:


> I've heard good of his work.
> 
> Just looked on his site and his SR1's, which he says "designed to exceed the performance of all other supplies currently available" are £180 each (seems good value to me), so 4 of those would come in at £720, which is circa half of $2000. I'm still struggling with the value proposition of your 4 rail LPS.
> 
> Not being a smart ass, just inquisitive as I asked Swagman Labs to make me a custom SE+ model LPS and rather than take my money he said there is nothing else worth doing after his SE edition.


 
  
 There is also Kaia LPS from Core Audio Technology. Could be ordered with two DC rails.
 I've read it's very good and one can always spend $2000 on LPS with some bonus options 
  
 http://www.coreaudiotechnology.com/products/dac-upgrades/kaia-linear-power-supply-second-generation/


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> I've heard good of his work.
> 
> Just looked on his site and his SR1's, which he says "designed to exceed the performance of all other supplies currently available" are £180 each (seems good value to me), so 4 of those would come in at £720, which is circa half of $2000. I'm still struggling with the value proposition of your 4 rail LPS.
> 
> Not being a smart ass, just inquisitive as I asked Swagman Labs to make me a custom SE+ model LPS and rather than take my money he said there is nothing else worth doing after his SE edition.


 

 Here is his new site and the SR3 info:


> SR3 Power Supply The latest model of the SR3 power supply is available in the following DC voltage/current ratings: 3v3 2A, 5v 3A, 6v 2A, 7v 2A, 9v 2A, 12v 2A, 15v 1.6A, 18v 1.4A, 21v 1.4A. The SR3 is a higher performance power supply than the SR2 and it is not supplied with a mains lead, as most customers prefer to use after market upgrade IEC mains leads with the SR3. The SR3 costs £300. The DC lead is also a separate item as several options are available for the SR3. The DC3C annealed copper DC lead costs £50 and the DC3FS annealed fine silver DC lead costs £85. The internal wiring from the regulator module to the DC output connector can be specified as fine silver for an additional £10 when the power supply is ordered or £20 plus return carriage when retro-fitted


 
 http://paulhynesaudio.com


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> @rb
> If you could be so kind and compare these simplified setups:
> PC->regular USB port(no PPA)>split usb cable(LH or Forza) with Teradak DC30W and DC iPurifier>F1
> vs.
> PC->regular USB port(no PPA)>split usb cable(LH or Forza) with possibly Teradak DC30W and DC iPurifier (I don't know if Mutec needs 5v) >Mutec


 

 Sure give me a day to rewire.
  
 It appears the Mutec needs to see 5VDC power on the USB - probably a relay.  Don't think a LPS is needed there.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> There is also Kaia LPS from Core Audio Technology. Could be ordered with two DC rails.
> I've read it's very good and one can always spend $2000 on LPS with some bonus options
> 
> http://www.coreaudiotechnology.com/products/dac-upgrades/kaia-linear-power-supply-second-generation/


 

 No I'm gonna go with a $4 million Hydrogen fuel cell - I need the best to brag about


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Here is his new site and the SR3 info:
> http://paulhynesaudio.com


 
  
 LOL, why did he leave his old website up??? That's what Google came back with... he needs a marketing lesson me thinks.


----------



## rb2013

doblex said:


> What about using F1 and X1 as is (without any additional devices) and use standard USB cables versus Breeze U8?
> PC>F1>DAC vs PC>Breeze>DAC - if F1 will be better, so does it worth additional $67?
> PC>X1>DAC vs PC>Breeze>DAC - same price, so same sound quality or one of them will be better?


 

 Alot will depend on the quality of your PC's +5VDC USB power - that will feed the F-1.
  
 I have a nice Breeze available - I modded with a totl WBT NexGen RCA for the SPDIF - wired with Mundorf silver/teflon wiring.
 Great price - PM if interested.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> LOL, why did he leave his old website up??? That's what Google came back with... he needs a marketing lesson me thinks.


 

 +1 Agree - good technical stuff there, I've shared alot here in the past.  I hope he keeps it up - likely he will as there he sells his regulators separately.  But funny he's not updated it with the SR2 and SR3.


----------



## rb2013

On the REDNET 3 from my Audio over IP thread - some interesting stuff:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio/15


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > 06-06-2015, 12:59 AM#13​​
> ...


----------



## rb2013

More interesting stuf relating to the RD3 and AOIP:
  
 From a CA thread I found:
  
More interesting quotes from this CA thread (I added the bolding):
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/ravenna-streamer-24708/#post433300
  
  
  
 Quote:


> 09-15-2014, 02:07 PM#33​​
> *Miska*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

Oh - like the ICRON/Startech 1GB USB extender!  Way to go sandab!
 
http://usbip.sourceforge.net
 
USB/IP PROJECT -​  
More interesting quotes from this CA thread (I added the bolding):
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/ravenna-streamer-24708/#post433300
 
Quote:


> 09-27-2014, 06:37 PM#53​​
> *sandab*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

So this is the point - a new contender!  Thunderbolt Focusrite Clarett Pre4 - TB2 to SPDIF for $699.  On a PC all this needs is a TB2 PCIe card.
  
  
  


> Yes Thunderbolt 3!  See Focusrite's very reasonably price Clarett Pre4 - Thunderbolt 2 to SPDIF
> https://us.focusrite.com/thunderbolt-audio-interfaces/clarett-4pre
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

So now you have three choices: USB (with all kinds of gizmos), TB2 & eventually TB3 with some huge advantages (even over Dante Ethernet AES67), and AES67 Ethernet (Dante and Ravenna).
  
 PS: Well let me correct that four choices the last being DNLA/UPnP


----------



## auvgeek

rb2013 said:


> On a PC all this needs is a TB2 PCIe card.


 
 I have an MBP so I'm covered, but according to the Focusrite website, Windows OS isn't supported yet. Unless you have inside info from CA? I looked briefly there and didn't see anything.
  
 I think I'll wait until someone makes a dedicated TB2/3 input and SPDIF output. I don't need all the bells and whistles (mic outputs, etc) that unit has. Surely, someone in consumer audio will do this soon, right??


----------



## rb2013

auvgeek said:


> I have an MBP so I'm covered, but according to the Focusrite website, Windows OS isn't supported yet. Unless you have inside info from CA? I looked briefly there and didn't see anything.
> 
> I think I'll wait until someone makes a dedicated TB2/3 input and SPDIF output. I don't need all the bells and whistles (mic outputs, etc) that unit has. Surely, someone in consumer audio will do this soon, right??


 

 I believe it is now - may need a Haswell board as a min.  There are many PCie to TB2 cards - but they are pricey (around $69 for a basic).  As you can read on my other Thunderbolt thread - TB 3 will be as seachange with Intel and MS support!  Also going away from the Apple licensing fees for the cable (why they're so damn expensive) to unify with USB3.1 and use the new USB-c connector.  Prices should fall.
  
 Thunderbolt 3 will be a major leap forward for that path.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806121/thunderbolt-3-for-audio-is-this-the-next-computer-audio-standard
  
 PS Yes I think once TB3 comes we'll ProSumer Audio 2 channel audio devices using this - or those industrious Chinese will.  The prices will come down.


----------



## rb2013

Ok my REDNET 3 is on the way!
  
 So a super show down of the Uber USB chain vs the Dante AES67 Ethernet - guns drawn and ready for action.
  
 I'll just use the BJC CAT6 UTP 550Mhz cable to connect up.  Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme power cable to the REDNET3.
  


 Now I'm already wondering about upgrading to a NIC GB PCie card - this looks interesting (reading the Realtek on boards are only fair):
 http://www.amazon.com/Intel-1000-Dual-Server-Adapter/dp/B000BMZHX2/ref=sr_1_13?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1464277436&sr=1-13&keywords=ethernet+card
  
 I read that the Broadcom GB chipset are very good as well as Intel's:
 http://www.amazon.com/HP-430654-001-Broadcom-Ethernet-Network/dp/B016L3LH38/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1464277893&sr=1-2&keywords=ethernet+card+1gb+broadcom
  
 Maybe a 10GB card would yield better performance?
 http://www.amazon.com/HP-Connectx-2-671798-001-666172-001-MNPA19-XTR/dp/B014QCETU4/ref=sr_1_3?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1464277633&sr=1-3&keywords=ethernet+card+10gb
  
 From what I have read the Haswell chip set has better GB ethernet performance then Ivy Bridge.  My new iCore 7/ WIN 10 box has the Haswell chipset by luck.


----------



## rb2013

Just to add to today's fun (damn like dangling at the end of a Paris bound TGV at 200mph!).
  
 News on Uptone's new super-cap LPS is leaking out:
  
Mystery revealed: UpTone Audio "UltraCap™ LPS-1" http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/mystery-revealed-uptone-audio-ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-a-28609/


----------



## rw35

Just done my F-1 box, I made two small plastic spacers for the Coax end to get the USB socket to stand slightly proud, quite happy with my work using a small hand file, the board is nice and tight inside.
  
 Thanks to the fella that posted the link to purchase it.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Just an update on the RedNet 3!
> 
> So I got it this morning and hooked it up to the NUC computer via the supplied CAT6 cable. It was not easy trying to get it configured but after about a couple of hours fuzzing around with it, i finally got it to communicate with the PC. I had to map Channels 1 & 2 from the NUC to the RN3 and finally I got music playing on the Headphones.
> 
> ...


 

 Look at what you made me do! LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just curious what you are using for LPS for the F-1 - any Regen or Recovery? 
  
 I have to say the addition of these plus the two LPS's for the GB LAN made as much of an improvement as the just the GB LAN
  
 I also wanted to give a shout out to the person who lent me the Mutec (don't know if you want your name mentioned), I will now get to try it with the Rednet 3 as an ext clock.  The RD3 will be be here in a few days.
  
 Of course reading on the Tri Ni HiFi Mutec thread - a DIY atomic clock can be easily made for not much money (they need big PS's).
 http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3653
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Just done my F-1 box, I made two small plastic spacers for the Coax end to get the USB socket to stand slightly proud, quite happy with my work using a small hand file, the board is nice and tight inside.
> 
> Thanks to the fella that posted the link to purchase it.


 

 Beautiful work!  What did you use to drill the SPDIF hole?  I tried a 1/2in drill bit and it mangled the alum a bit.  Had to file it down - a bit messy.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Seems like the audio world got their heads on straight and finally moving away from usb. It seems the usb problem overstayed with the amount of market it created. 

With that said, I may wait for the whole thing to pan out on what will be the way to go. Lan or thunderbolt or some other.. feels like hd-dvd vs blu-ray or betamax vs vhs all over again! My guess is LAN since most computers will have gblan on the ready over tb


----------



## rb2013

Comparing the Focusrite TB2 Clarett 4Pre and the REDNET 3 some interesting advantages for each:
  
 The REDNET 3 has the ability to receive an ext clock feed - so a 10Mhz atomic clock is an option.
 Not sure of the PS on the AC fed RD3.

  
 The Clarett has a 12VDC 2A input - so running a nice LPS for it would be no problem.  But no clock input.

  
  
 Question on the Mutec 1G clock - how is that utilized for audio frequencies?  I have read that clock dividers can add jitter.


----------



## Albrecht

> I tried a 1/2in drill bit and it mangled the alum a bit.


 
  
 Me too. I was able to disguise the mangled coax with the washer and clamping screw: but really messed up the square, (USB), end.
  
 I guess that's what electrical tape is for


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> Seems like the audio world got their heads on straight and finally moving away from usb. It seems the usb problem overstayed with the amount of market it created.
> 
> With that said, I may wait for the whole thing to pan out on what will be the way to go. Lan or thunderbolt or some other.. feels like hd-dvd vs blu-ray or betamax vs vhs all over again! My guess is LAN since most computers will have gblan on the ready over tb


 

 Yes I think you are right the advantages of a Layer 3 TCP/IP protocol  - for use over GB LANs is a big feature.  From what I believe TB3 will only be layer 2 - but that could change - it does have some technical advantages over AES67 - like direct DMA access.
  
 But now with MS WIN 10 support and Intel (Skylake) those TB3 (USB-c) ports will be every where - most likely used for ext HDs.
  
 The LAN already have galvanic isolation - I believe TB3 does too.
  
 USB, like SPDIF will live on for a long time as it's penetration is deep and is a defacto common std.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Me too. I was able to disguise the mangled coax with the washer and clamping screw: but really messed up the square, (USB), end.
> 
> I guess that's what electrical tape is for


 

 And a hammer and grinding wheel!


----------



## rb2013

Strange on the Mutec 3+ Smart clock USB - tried it as a SPDIF reclocker last night - did not work.
  
 Wonder why - it has a auto detect feature.
  
 I was going SPDIF Coax out to my DAC and using a BNC to coax adapter running from the F-1 into the SPDIF input.
  
 But no go


----------



## Albrecht

> And a hammer and grinding wheel!


 
  
 LMAO. As anal & obsessive Audiophiles, - how much time should we be spending on $5 hobby boxes?


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> LMAO. As anal & obsessive Audiophiles, - how much time should we be spending on $5 hobby boxes?


 

 Really - not much patience for Arts and Crafts.


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Beautiful work!  What did you use to drill the SPDIF hole?  I tried a 1/2in drill bit and it mangled the alum a bit.  Had to file it down - a bit messy.


 
  
 First gently hammer a nail to make a tiny dent where the hole should be (to stop the drill bit moving)... after that a drilled a small hole with a metal drill bit, then drilled the same hole with largest drill bit, then I used a countersink bit evenly on each side until big enough for Coax to pop through and have a nice edge.


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> And a hammer and grinding wheel!


 
  
 No, that's what patience is for Grasshopper.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Ok my REDNET 3 is on the way!
> 
> So a super show down of the Uber USB chain vs the Dante AES67 Ethernet - guns drawn and ready for action.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congrats - I think you will be pretty happy with it.
  
 As for the cards - 2 channel 24bit/192KHz takes up so little of the bandwidth of a GigE connection that you really don't need to worry about the NIC. If it is performing to spec with no errors, you aren't going to get a "cleaner" or "better" signal, since any issues with the signal can be seen as re-transmits or other packet errors. IIRC, I was seeing approx 20Mbit utilization on the interface I'm using for audio, and that is absolutely nothing for a GigE connection.
  
 10Gig is completely un-necessary for the tiny amounts of traffic that this uses. There is also no point to it if it's 10G on one end only, as it will have to negotiate down to the speed of the switch or connected device.
  
 The Intel server cards are nice as they generally will offload any processing onto the card, but again the amount of data we're talking about here is tiny and placing little to no load on the NIC. If you're thinking that you could use the dual port card to do aggregated links to your switch via something like LACP - DVS won't recognize it, and it would only be from host to switch (if the switch supports it), so no real benefit on the destination, and none whatsoever for the bandwidth required.
  
 Part of the beauty of this solution is the simplicity of the connection and lack of "tweaks" required.


----------



## wushuliu

So the Focusrite Clarett isn't compatible with Windows?


----------



## rw35

wushuliu said:


> I dont see an audiophile rednet being that much cheaper honestly...


 
  
 Yeah but it would be smaller and less conspicuous, 19" 2U would not fit in my rack


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Congrats - I think you will be pretty happy with it.
> 
> As for the cards - 2 channel 24bit/192KHz takes up so little of the bandwidth of a GigE connection that you really don't need to worry about the NIC. If it is performing to spec with no errors, you aren't going to get a "cleaner" or "better" signal, since any issues with the signal can be seen as re-transmits or other packet errors. IIRC, I was seeing approx 20Mbit utilization on the interface I'm using for audio, and that is absolutely nothing for a GigE connection.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks - I'll just use the board ethernet - this is a stand alone machines and not hooked up the the internet.  So no need for a two port.
  
 Should of listened to you and bought the GearSluz offered RedNet3 for $625.  Bought an open box for $799 on Vintage King Audio - free shipping though.
  
 What do you think of Optical LAN cable - seems redundant as the ethernet UTP is already galvanically isolated.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> So the Focusrite Clarett isn't compatible with Windows?


 

 I guess not - at least on WIN 8.1.  I believe WIN 10 should be.
  
 https://us.focusrite.com/downloads/os?product=Clarett+4Pre


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Ok my REDNET 3 is on the way!
> 
> So a super show down of the Uber USB chain vs the Dante AES67 Ethernet - guns drawn and ready for action.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The BJC Cat6 cable was a no go when I tried it.
 Not sure why as it is supposed to be a very good cable but I was not getting any action on the lights of the ethernet ports of both PC & RN3.
 I used the supplied network cable and it worked.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> The BJC Cat6 cable was a no go when I tried it.
> Not sure why as it is supposed to be a very good cable but I was not getting any action on the lights of the ethernet ports of both PC & RN3.
> I used the supplied network cable and it worked.


 

 Oh no - this is beginning to sound like USB already...


----------



## mhamel

muziqboy said:


> The BJC Cat6 cable was a no go when I tried it.
> Not sure why as it is supposed to be a very good cable but I was not getting any action on the lights of the ethernet ports of both PC & RN3.
> I used the supplied network cable and it worked.


 
  
 I'm using a BJC Cat6 cable with mine, that's odd as it should work with any in-spec Ethernet cable.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Thanks - I'll just use the board ethernet - this is a stand alone machines and not hooked up the the internet.  So no need for a two port.
> 
> Should of listened to you and bought the GearSluz offered RedNet3 for $625.  Bought an open box for $799 on Vintage King Audio - free shipping though.
> 
> What do you think of Optical LAN cable - seems redundant as the ethernet UTP is already galvanically isolated.


 
  
 Optical LAN cable is definitely not needed for this, it's already isolated.


----------



## rb2013

Just a quick note on the my selection of Foobar and my file and tagging system.
  
 When I began to build my PC music system a decade ago - the issue of tagging was very problematic - ID V1,2,3 and well all Meta data tagging was causing major problems.
  
 Meta data was getting lost, corrupted and once that happens it's a major pain to rebuild or retag everything.
  
 So I decided to have the Windows file name and tree directory act as the tag.  Many advantages to this:  First I can search for a artist, album or track either by using Foobar or Windows explorer - the later takes seconds.  Like wise I can scan a whole genre in seconds.  EAC will automatically tag each file (as the file name) using the remote freedb feature.  All the Artist, Album, Track title and number are all loaded instantly before the CD is burned.  I do have to add the album art.
  
 I create a sub directory(folder) for each album - under a sub dir(folder) for that artist - under a sub dir (folder) for that genre (say Jazz) - under a sub dir(folder) for Redbook, LP, SACD, DVD-A, Hi Res DL.  Other then a HD crash  - no way to corrupt this 'meta data' as it's not meta at all.  All info is automatically alphabetized by windows.  So all my music instantly organized and available in seconds.  Using the Windows 'Properties' function in Explorer (right click), I can also tell you how many albums (folders) and how many tracks (files) are in any one Genre.   In the early Windows days - Win 98 for example had a small limit on the number of folders you could have and the length of the file names was short.  So the meta data scheme was invented.  Today Windows max folder number in a directory is very high.  Right now in my Redbook Rock (classic not Emo or Alt) I have 549 albums and 5,021 tracks.


> After a quick search on google I found these:​ FAT32​
> Maximum disk size: 2 terabytes
> Maximum file size: 4 gigabytes
> Maximum number of files on disk: 268,435,437
> ...


 
  
 So with Foobar to create a playlist you can load a 'file' or a 'folder' - so say to have a Jazz playlist - just load the 'Jazz' folder and every artist album loads in alphabetical order - with three clicks.  If I want just certain albums - say only Jazz Trios.  I load each of those artists folder or only a specific album folder and build a truly custom playlist - that can include Redbook, SACD, DVD-A, Digitized LPs all together.
  
 These album cover picture based players - look really pretty - but once you get to 20 or more albums in a list - get to be tedious to find one to play.  I have a Apple 120GB 6G iPod and of course a couple of Android devices using the Fusion.  What a pain to 'flip' through a few hundred albums.
  
 I have playlists with 300 or more albums. Easily searched in seconds.
  
 Foobar is very flexible and needs to be customized to view properly - here is my custom screen - I designed:


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Optical LAN cable is definitely not needed for this, it's already isolated.


 

 So I guess it's the use of an ext clock that can improve performance.  Any idea what Focusrite is using for clocking?
  
 Did you notice a big improvement in SQ with your ext OXCO ( or was it atomic) clock?


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> So I guess it's the use of an ext clock that can improve performance.  Any idea what Focusrite is using for clocking?
> 
> Did you notice a big improvement in SQ with your ext OXCO ( or was it atomic) clock?


 
  
 To my ears, there was an improvement in SQ when using the clock in my DAC as the master for the whole network.  I am not sure what they are using for clocking in the D16, I haven't taken it apart yet... I wanted to make sure I was keeping it first.
  
 A really great read about clocking:  http://pinknoisemag.com/pink-papers/pink-paper-002 - worth taking the time to go through.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> To my ears, there was an improvement in SQ when using the clock in my DAC as the master for the whole network.  I am not sure what they are using for clocking in the D16, I haven't taken it apart yet... I wanted to make sure I was keeping it first.
> 
> A really great read about clocking:  http://pinknoisemag.com/pink-papers/pink-paper-002 - worth taking the time to go through.


 

 Thanks  - here's an interesting one as well:
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/287970-diy-atomic-clock.html
  
 PS talking with the Vintage King Audio guy - he was saying they sell very few reclockers these days - as the ones in the devices are so good (like your DAC), not like the old days of Apogee Big Ben and Antelope IsoChrome.


----------



## jabbr

rw35 said:


> LOL, why did he leave his old website up??? That's what Google came back with... he needs a marketing lesson me thinks.




Thats because you don't know Paul Hynes.

Paul Hynes licensed his design / technology on his simpler designs like the SR3's to a newly formed company bearing his name PaulHynesAudio. He couldn't keep up with the demand for these simple designs.

He still hand builds his high spec designs himself under his own name Paul Hynes.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Thats because you don't know Paul Hynes.
> 
> Paul Hynes licensed his design / technology on his simpler designs like the SR3's to a newly formed company bearing his name PaulHynesAudio. He couldn't keep up with the demand for these simple designs.
> 
> He still hand builds his high spec designs himself under his own name Paul Hynes.


 

 I see he does have the SR2 on the old site - for $510 English pounds - but on the new site the SR2 is $195 pounds and the SR3 is $300 pounds.  Aren't they the same?
  
 It seems like the SR3 is still custom as you need to have it built for your AC voltage and one of 9 different DC voltages.  Custom silver wiring options as well.
  
 The 'custom' multi-rail is just multiple DC voltages in one box.  So yes the SR3 is 'simpler' in that it's built for one DC voltage versus many - but that doesn't mean it sounds better.
 What 'better' components like shunt or choke filtering did he use in yours to make it better SQ wise?


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> ....
> What 'better' components like shunt or choke filtering did he use in yours to make it better SQ wise?



My rails are all SR7EHD design. I`m not going to disclose anything about his designs. You`ll have to contact himself about that.


----------



## rb2013

Great read on the CA LPS-1 thread - Congrats guys (@Superdad- I hope you don't mind my quoting you here about your new product - nothing to do with SPDIF 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/mystery-revealed-uptone-audio-ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-a-28609/


> 05-14-2016, 11:29 PM #5
> *JohnSwenson*
> 
> 
> ...


 
 So LPS's like the Breeze and TeraDak DC-30w actually feed less noise back into the AC line (not nearly as much as a SMPS but some), then a LPS with more and larger caps - interesting.  Well another + for using AC line isolation for each section of the digital system.


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Oh no - this is beginning to sound like USB already...


 
  


mhamel said:


> I'm using a BJC Cat6 cable with mine, that's odd as it should work with any in-spec Ethernet cable.


 
  
 OK, I just swapped the BJC CAT6a cable that I was using on the Startech and it is now working!
 Not sure what the problem was yesterday when I was trying to hook it up.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> My rails are all SR7EHD design. I`m not going to disclose anything about his designs. You`ll have to contact himself about that.


 
 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=80185.0
  
 Here it quotes: Not $2000


> SR7EHD-21/27                                        £650 (with silver plated XLR DC connector)
> SR7EHD-21/27                                        £680 (with XL low impedance DC connector)
> DC7C OFC DC lead                                   £045


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> OK, I just swapped the BJC CAT6a cable that I was using on the Startech and it is now working!
> Not sure what the problem was yesterday when I was trying to hook it up.


 

 Good news - love that $29 cable! 
  
 Did it change the SQ?


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Good news - love that $29 cable!
> 
> Did it change the SQ?


 
  
 I don't know yet! Just did a quick swap to find out if it works.
 I have to head out and do some errands so have not fired up my amp.
 Will do some more listening tonight.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=80185.0
> 
> Here it quotes: Not $2000




Those are prices for single rails. Mine has got 4 rails.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> I don't know yet! Just did a quick swap to find out if it works.
> I have to head out and do some errands so have not fired up my amp.
> Will do some more listening tonight.


 




  


jabbr said:


> Those are prices for single rails. Mine has got 4 rails.


 
 Fair enough


----------



## Sanlitun

Has anyone had a delivery or seen any movement from their Ebay seller on this?
  
 Getting close to a month now with a fake tracking number for me. I haven't complained as I really would like to try out the F1.


----------



## rb2013

Found this interesting info on the JETPLL clocking in the REDNET 3:
  
 http://www.meter.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/10/103950.html
  


> also Focusrite and Presonus use JetPLL™ jitter reduction technology​
> Posted by *hfavandepas* (A) on February 16, 2012 at 05:41:50 In Reply to: Anyone using good Firewire-to-spdif converter? posted by *Jon L* on February 15, 2012 at 20:06:50:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

http://www.tctechnologies.tc/index.php/products/jetpll
  
Highlights 
Patented JetPLL™ jitter reduction technology.
Hybrid design incorporates noise shaping to virtually remove audio band jitter.
Ensures highest converter performance possible, resulting in better separation.
Fast Locking to any digital format, through a wide range of frequencies.
Extremely robust, and tolerant of wide variations in clock frequencies.
Ensures near perfect clock performance when networking audio devices.
Dual VCXO loop performance and quality.
Filters jitter by approx. 100dB to -122dB.
 Specifications 
Frequency range: 15.8 MHz to 27.7 MHz (scalable)
Jitter attenuation: more than 60 dB above 100 Hz
Period jitter: less than 50ps RMS
Wideband jitter: less than 200ps RMS (100 Hz highpass)
Baseband jitter: less than 20ps RMS (100 Hz to 40 kHz)
Jitter density: less than 0.1ps/rootHz above 100 Hz
 


JetPLL






 JetPLL™ is a patented solution for audio band jitter attentuation.
 The fundamental problem in audio networks comes as more devices with clocks are added to the system -- there is a beating of the clocks against each other which creates additive audio band jitter. Traditional solutions involve expensive VCXO's and/or sample rate conversion. There is the further complication of low quality clocks in lower cost devices -- as networked products and systems become more common, lower prices for consumer and professional equipment drive manufacturers to use poorer clock solutions. In many cases, the variation from the specified clock frequency is so great that it falls outside the ability of many clocking solutions to cope (e.g. >100ppm variance). In such cases, equipment simply fails to work. This is not acceptable in either pro, CE or prosumer markets.
 JetPLL™ provides the same performance as traditional, expensive clocking solutions found in the world's best professional clocking products. JetPLL™ is highly robust and extremely tolerant of wide variations in clock frequencies. Applied to 1394, USB, and AVB transports, JetPLL™ provides industry-leading jitter reduction. As a result, with JetPLL™, equipment just works.
 All DICE chips include an on-board JetPLL™. JetPLL™ is also available as licenseable intellectual property. The implementation is CMOS-based, typically less than 20 kilogates. For more information, please e-mail us at info@tctechnologies.tc.
AES Convention paper on the benefits of JetPLL 1.0


----------



## ccschua

jabbr said:


> Thats because you don't know Paul Hynes.
> 
> Paul Hynes licensed his design / technology on his simpler designs like the SR3's to a newly formed company bearing his name PaulHynesAudio. He couldn't keep up with the demand for these simple designs.
> 
> He still hand builds his high spec designs himself under his own name Paul Hynes.


 
 hi jabbr
  
 I have been wanting to get Hynes Power supply but at at one time it takes a year for delivery. 
  
 Currently I am using HDPLEX 100W power supply with 5V power up the PPA V4 OCXO (which uses its USB for supplying F1). 
  
 I wonder if u had compared Hynes to others and how does it sound like.
  
 rgds


----------



## jabbr

ccschua said:


> hi jabbr
> 
> I have been wanting to get Hynes Power supply but at at one time it takes a year for delivery.
> 
> ...





No, I did no do any comparisons.

Mine did in the end take nearly 2 years to be delivered, because I put in my order just before he got ill and had to stop work completely for a while and go through a lengthy recovery process. Also because the SR7EHD is not asked for that often and my 4-rail required a special toroid. But I'm very satisfied with the end result.


----------



## rw35

That HDPEX does look very good for the money.
  
 But, I think I'd rather keep everything separate and have 4 transformers, I know it's 4 boxes instead of 1 but merging all that together feels a bit of a compromise.
  
 Does it matter much if one transformer feeds multiple rails, or is it my OCD?


----------



## evilhippie

sanlitun said:


> Has anyone had a delivery or seen any movement from their Ebay seller on this?
> 
> Getting close to a month now with a fake tracking number for me. I haven't complained as I really would like to try out the F1.


 
  
 My DHL shipping number issued 5 days ago hasn't had any movement, and still only reports shipping info received.  I'm waiting patiently as well...


----------



## vhsownsbeta

wsz0304 said:


> Hey guys, I'm a shop staff of wsz0304.We are sending out F-1 through DHL today.
> We are very sorry about the delay in delivery has put you to great inconvenience.
> First at all,there's a certain matter I want to explain, about F-1 XMOS USB digital interface board this is entirely hand-made and no mass production.In this month's 9th, the first batch of goods produced, we detect POB found the problem.All products returned to the factory to Re manufacture.Our delivery delay is to ensure good quality.
> By the way,We will present the gift as a compensation for the delay in shipment.
> ...


 

 Thank you for the update. I suggest in future you should always ensure the stock number indicated on your eBay listing reflects what is actually ready to ship, to minimise frustration.


----------



## wsz0304

Have a good day


----------



## mourip

wsz0304 said:


> Hey guys, I'm a shop staff of wsz0304.We are sending out F-1 through DHL today.
> We are very sorry about the delay in delivery has put you to great inconvenience.
> First at all,there's a certain matter I want to explain, about F-1 XMOS USB digital interface board this is entirely hand-made and no mass production.In this month's 9th, the first batch of goods produced, we detect POB found the problem.All products returned to the factory to Re manufacture.Our delivery delay is to ensure good quality.
> By the way,We will present the gift as a compensation for the delay in shipment.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for letting us know of your situation. We appreciate your open communication.
  
 Does this mean that you now have available stock and can ship upon receipt of orders?


----------



## sbgk

Can the xmos chip really be soldered by hand ?


----------



## wushuliu

sbgk said:


> Can the xmos chip really be soldered by hand ?




I dont think they mean every piece is hand soldered. I bet the isolation parts are. If you look closely the board does not seem entirely machine made imo.

This also means this may be something of a limited edition. Wouldnt be surprised if it gets discontinued for a more stripped down version like diyinhk. I hope not. This is an amazing product!


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> Can the xmos chip really be soldered by hand ?


 

 Yes using one of these:
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/usb-microscope-1080p-for-smt-soldering/48-1080p-smt-microscope.html


----------



## rb2013

A little update on the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB:
  
 Well with some help I got it working as a SPDIF reclocker last night.  Very sweet indeed.
  
 Obviously better then the W4S Remedy - not $500 better - but noticible.
  
 In my main system on the APL DAC - just a slight improvement.  barely noticible - but there none the less.  The APL NWOjr has an excellent discrete SPDIF reciever board and super clock.  So not to surprising.  Again, this was using the Mutec as a SPDIF reclocker - not USB - that is SPDIF in from the F-1, SPDIF out to my DAC.
  
 Will try the Mutec as an external clock for the REDNET 3 next week.  The Mutec 3+ Smart Clock is available without the USB board for around $800.  So with it's 1G clock a low cost (compared to other plug and play boxes).  A GPS atomic clock (DIY mod for power supply) can be made for about half that - roughly.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## FredA

Looking for an f-1 seller. Anyone bought from rcshop2011 on ebay? He's well rated, so i am likely to order from him, unless i get bad feedback here.


----------



## rb2013

Still have not seen any measurements on the Mutec G1 clock - I believe it's a OXCO - definitely not an atomic clock.
  
 This one looks really nice!
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-000M-Ultra-Precision-Low-Noise-RB-Word-Rubidium-Atomic-Clock-Generator-HIFI-/281937108477?hash=item41a4c2ddfd:g:4UgAAOSwa-dWnPzg
  
 Freq accuracy 0.00001ppm


----------



## Gordian

freda said:


> Looking for an f-1 seller. Anyone bought from rcshop2011 on ebay? He's well rated, so i am likely to order from him, unless i get bad feedback here.


 
 I did 1 week ago, still not shipped...


----------



## rb2013

gordian said:


> I did 1 week ago, still not shipped...


 

 It's likely that the bad boards are holding up all new F-1 production.  Bad timing - just as the SU-1 is ramping up...A whole lot of patience will be needed.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> To my ears, there was an improvement in SQ when using the clock in my DAC as the master for the whole network.  I am not sure what they are using for clocking in the D16, I haven't taken it apart yet... I wanted to make sure I was keeping it first.
> 
> A really great read about clocking:  http://pinknoisemag.com/pink-papers/pink-paper-002 - worth taking the time to go through.


 

 I'm really enjoying this article - thanks!
  
 Great primer on audio clocks - favorite diagram so far:


----------



## Albrecht

> Will try the Mutec as an external clock for the REDNET 3 next week.  The Mutec 3+ Smart Clock is available without the USB board for around $800.  So with it's 1G clock a low cost (compared to other plug and play boxes).  A GPS atomic clock (DIY mod for power supply) can be made for about half that - roughly.


 
  
 Cool,
  
 Apologies, - but I do remember the Rednet 3 having a clock loop, - does that mean that you're thinking that the RedNet 3 clock isn't that great?
  
 With Foobar, would you have to configure its settings to output to your NIC instead of USB?
  
 Can't wait to hear about your impressions of the RedNet3


----------



## FredA

gordian said:


> I did 1 week ago, still not shipped...




Ok. I am not in a hurry. Let me know when it's shipped. Thanks.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Cool,
> 
> Apologies, - but I do remember the Rednet 3 having a clock loop, - does that mean that you're thinking that the RedNet 3 clock isn't that great?
> 
> ...


 

 Well I really don't know what clock they use (I'm thinking just a digital PLL enhanced with this JetPLL jitter reduction scheme), I'm hoping at least a XO clock.  Now the the Singxer SU-1 may just be a cheap and effective way to add Crystek CCHD-575 clocks to the Word Clock input.  The REDNET3 only does 48k, 96k, and 192k.  So it looks like it only has one clock.  The SU-1 has of course has both the 22Mhz and 24Mhz CCHD-575's.  I imagine the RD3 and SU-1 would communicate with each other to select the proper clock freq.
  
 So for $349 a neat solution.  Of course even better the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock (non USB) with it's 1GB clock and the ability to add a 1Mhz-10Mhz ext atomic clock.  The RD3 does not accept a 10Mhz atomic clock directly.
  
 In Foobar the Dante DVC (Digital Virtual Card) is seen as a ASIO - it along with the REDNET control software does a PC scan looking for the ethernet port.  This is then enabled with some configuration (assignment of L and R channels) in the REDNET software control panel.
  
 I'm somewhat familiar with the ProAudio channel assignment schemes from using my EMU-1616M, RME FF800 and WaveLab 6.0.  A bit tricky at first but not to difficult.  USB is not part of the equation at all (well that was the intent of going AOIP).


----------



## rb2013

From the Pink Clock Article:


> Firstly, all three 10 MHz clocks improved the sound of our test system. The change was obvious to the ear, so we know that the OCX’s Word Clock output was changing, and, as mentioned earlier, this sonic improvement indicates that the Antelope OCX is not an optimal crystal clock on its own (further comparisons confirm this – see below).
> As we got situated, we were somewhat surprised to find that each 10 MHz generator had such a distinctly different impact on the sound of this system. Further – and most importantly – the individual sonic profile of each clock held true across a vast selection of program material. Each of these 10 MHz clocks helped to reveal more detail and improved imaging from this system, but in rather different ways. This discovery runs completely against the grain of our expectations, because, intuitively, one would think that clocks based on such reputedly ultra-accurate technology would not vary much from one design to the next. But they did.


 


> Listening and Logic Agree: 10 MHz Clocking for Audio is a Ruse In the absence of jitter measurements (for now), we are left with listening and logic. In the case of 10 MHz clocks, logic and listening are aligned.
> We’ve shown above that on our test system the 10 MHz clocks, while capable, were not able to outperform the crystal oscillators found in two high-end converters. Perhaps there are other systems, or 10 MHz receiver devices, which might reveal something we were unable to hear. However, our test system was excellent at passing a subpar converter’s jitter onto the speakers for us to hear. If any of these clocks was going to shine, this system provided the opportunity.
> As we explained above, for audio we are interested only in short-term stability in a clock. The rubidium oscillator is an elaborate and relatively expensive device that improves long-term stability. So, the logical conclusion – and one that lines up with our listening evaluations – is that nothing is gained from adding a rubidium stabilization device to a crystal oscillator for audio use.


 


> *Grimm Audio CC1 Master Clock* – Quick summary: Allen bought one immediately!  This clock is incredible. The detail and imaging from it are superior to anything we heard, and the overall “relaxed” sound of the playback was as close to analog tape (read: jitter-free) as anything we’d tried. The Grimm CC1 didn’t make the music sound as aggressive and forward as the Antelope clocks, and that was a huge plus, because what you get instead is unparalleled depth and detail, as well as a feeling of “calm” that none of the other clocks provided.  Of course, the CC1 is simply a clock with no conversion available (like the Cranesong HEDD), but it seems there is something to be said for a dedicated clock, as whatever Grimm has done inside the CC1 is topping an elite class of options as a price less than half of some of the other offerings.  Hands down, the CC1 was our preference.


 
 http://www.frontendaudio.com/Grimm-Audio-CC1-p/9999-09635.htm?gclid=Cj0KEQjw4J-6BRD3h_KIoqijwvkBEiQAfcPiBQh4b9y6OVvwMo0c0b9hd2dGcqD2rDCsSpVYjt13MKYaAg9p8P8HAQ&click=18920


----------



## System54

My experience with the F1 is that out of the box it already plays well. However, it could be considerably better. 
  
 First change of all I would make is to supply the 5v on the usb side externally. On the isolated side I would do the same.
  
 The second step is to shut the dc-dc regulators and to also supply it externally.
  
 The improvement regarding dynamic, details etc. is undescribable.
  
 Consider that without noise neither isolation nor reclocking is needed.


----------



## Albrecht

> In Foobar the Dante DVC (Digital Virtual Card) is seen as a ASIO


 
  
 Thanks
  
 I wasn't sure how one would configure their preferred software away from USB output, (for example), to be the Dante/AES/Protocol.
  
 A program like Pure Music on the MAC, - is designed for USB, but someone could select the MAC's headphone jack in the settings.
  
 So it sounds like Foobar then recognizes this Virtual Dante card as a Digital Sound Card and then it directs the ASIO output to be AES67 through the NIC, instead of the ASIO USB driver?
  
 I just did a search on how to install FooBar with a USB DAC, and there doesn't seem to be anything that is uniquely USB when you configure the output.
  
 I was just curious how it comes together on the software two hardware output side....So in addition, - it sounds like the Dante ASIO output might show up in the Windows 7 control Panel\Sounds section along with USB and Speakers and you would select "Dante ASIO Output" or something?
  
 Thanks again,


----------



## mhamel

albrecht said:


> Thanks
> 
> I wasn't sure how one would configure their preferred software away from USB output, (for example), to be the Dante/AES/Protocol.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You can configure DVS to show up as a standard WDM driver that shows up in the control panel and can be used with any Windows app, or as an ASIO driver that can be used by playback software that will output to ASIO drivers.
  
 When you configure the DVS control panel, you select the Ethernet interface you want to use, the number of channels it should output, WDM/ASIO and the latency.  There is also Dante Controller software that presents a matrix of the available input/output devices for routing, allows diagnostics/monitoring, clock selection, settings, etc.
  
 A couple of resources with video presentations that cover things pretty well:
  
 https://www.audinate.com/resources/videos/gs0-getting-started-dante-audio-networking-training
 https://www.audinate.com/resources/videos/video-series-dante-controller-101
  
 Pro-audio-centric, but it still gives good information on how it all works together.
  
    -Mike


----------



## wushuliu

system54 said:


> My experience with the F1 is that out of the box it already plays well. However, it could be considerably better.
> 
> First change of all I would make is to supply the 5v on the usb side externally. On the isolated side I would do the same.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Would be great if there was a picture showing exactly where to apply all the external power...


----------



## Albrecht

> When you configure the DVS control panel, you select the Ethernet interface you want to use, the number of channels it should output, WDM/ASIO and the latency.  There is also Dante Controller software that presents a matrix of the available input/output devices for routing, allows diagnostics/monitoring, clock selection, settings, etc.


 
  
 Thank you, - very helpful.


----------



## Sanlitun

wsz0304 said:


> Hey guys, I'm a shop staff of wsz0304.We are sending out F-1 through DHL today.


 
  
 Thanks looks like mine has shipped. I think I can actually see it in the pile on your Facebook page.


----------



## ccschua

It looks like RD3 is at the dawn of revolution to digital audio. I wonder what software application will be implicated down the chain.
  
 for master clock, I have heard the antelope trinnity 10M and its focus is really spot on.


----------



## rb2013

system54 said:


> My experience with the F1 is that out of the box it already plays well. However, it could be considerably better.
> 
> First change of all I would make is to supply the 5v on the usb side externally. On the isolated side I would do the same.
> 
> ...


 

 A few folks had proposed this mod - but not for the faint of heart.  I believe Alex from Uptone said it would not work


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Thanks
> 
> I wasn't sure how one would configure their preferred software away from USB output, (for example), to be the Dante/AES/Protocol.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes - you can down load a trial version - which I did and loaded it.  Popped right up in Foobar's Output choices after loading in Foobar's 'ASIO Virtual Devices' function.
  
 Yes the Dante software directs to the NIC or PC Ethenet port.
  
 Try it yourself to see, I have now and no conflicts with the F-1 USB ASIO - so you could switch back and forth on the fly.
  
 https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> It looks like RD3 is at the dawn of revolution to digital audio. I wonder what software application will be implicated down the chain.
> 
> for master clock, I have heard the antelope trinnity 10M and its focus is really spot on.


 

 If you read the Pink Paper on Audio Clocking - they do a sighted listening test with four Rubidium clocks including the new Antelope combined Word Clock and Atomic clock (the first of it's kind) $6000 10MX and as well the Antelope OCX word clock coupled with the 10M.
  
 Then compared to 8 different crystal based clocks. Their conclusion - Atomic Clocks are a 'ruse' and can actually degrade the SQ.
  
 The one they liked best of all the clocks was the GRIMM CC1.  The Dangerous CONVERT-2 Clock was also very good.
 http://pinknoisemag.com/pink-papers/pink-paper-002#listeningandlogic
  


> *Grimm Audio CC1 Master Clock* – Quick summary: Allen bought one immediately!  This clock is incredible. The detail and imaging from it are superior to anything we heard, and the overall “relaxed” sound of the playback was as close to analog tape (read: jitter-free) as anything we’d tried. The Grimm CC1 didn’t make the music sound as aggressive and forward as the Antelope clocks, and that was a huge plus, because what you get instead is unparalleled depth and detail, as well as a feeling of “calm” that none of the other clocks provided.  Of course, the CC1 is simply a clock with no conversion available (like the Cranesong HEDD), but it seems there is something to be said for a dedicated clock, as whatever Grimm has done inside the CC1 is topping an elite class of options as a price less than half of some of the other offerings.  Hands down, the CC1 was our preference.


 
 But the Grimm is $2800.  I will try the REDNET3 with the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock with it's G1 clock (1 Ghz) I have on a short term loan.   It's available for $800.
  
 But wondering if the Singxer SU-1 with it's word clock output and Cyrstek CCHD-575 clocks and linear power supply might be the killer lost cost option for $350.  Just ignore it's USB function and use as a ext word clock only.


----------



## ccschua

if su-1 works to supply 5V to its board, I dont see F-1 cant do it either.
  
 with external clock going thru a divider, I dont think it will affects the sound so much. if it does, its a systematic jitter.


----------



## rw35

It was many years ago, so may no longer be as relevant... but when Sound on Sound did an external clock test, almost every instance of external clocking increased distortion. Their conclusion was that close proximity must be an advantage over clocking via cables and additional interfaces.
  
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm
  
 These master clock boxes were_ originally_ devised to lock multiple units together in a digital studio environment, not to enhance simple domestic systems.
  
 You_ may_ find that even the best box actually increases distortion in your setup.
  
 Just my 2p, Hope that helps


----------



## jabbr

rw35 said:


> ......
> These master clock boxes were _originally_ devised to lock multiple units together in a digital studio environment, not to enhance simple domestic systems.
> 
> You _may_ find that even the best box actually increases distortion in your setup.
> ...




+1

With these devices it is not so much abouth the highest, most perfect accuracy of the clock itself, but about the synchonicity of the connected devices int he studio.


----------



## wsz0304

mourip said:


> Thanks for letting us know of your situation. We appreciate your open communication.
> 
> Does this mean that you now have available stock and can ship upon receipt of orders?


yes,stock available.thank you for your support and turst.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> It was many years ago, so may no longer be as relevant... but when Sound on Sound did an external clock test, almost every instance of external clocking increased distortion. Their conclusion was that close proximity must be an advantage over clocking via cables and additional interfaces.
> 
> https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm
> 
> ...


 

 That is a really good point for ext clocking.  I don't think so for SPDIF reclocking.
  
 But in the Pink Papers clock show down - that was true to a degree with the addition of an atomic clock to a crystal based word clock.
  
 The very good crystal based word clocks did make a difference.
  
 Here is an excellent review for the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock (minus the USB) as an ext clock and a SPDIF reclocker:
 http://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/106/mc-3-smart-clock/
  


> All that is a long-winded way of saying that the _MC-3+ Smart Clock _is a great choice for a master clock because it exhibits exemplary ultra-low-jitter performance — especially in regards to close-in phase noise — due to MUTEC's 1G-Clock Technology, a variation on the Direct Digital Synthesizer (DDS) method of generating clock signals from a fixed-frequency reference clock. For the past year, I've been relying on an _MC-3+ _to generate and distribute sync to my Sony DMX-R100 console, RME HDSPe MADI FX interface, and Apogee AD/DA-16X andAntelope Audio Orion32 converters.


 


> When plugging in the MUTEC _MC-3+ _for the first time, the results were immediate. I didn't have to convince myself that what was coming out of the speakers was tighter, more detailed, and expansive. My tests with the MUTEC were all done with the unit used as the master word clock, feeding into three different mastering-grade ADCs. I was most interested in how a word clock could tighten up an already good converter.


 


> What the MUTEC rendered to my ear was increased precision and detail in the sound stage. Where once was a ride cymbal sizzling along somewhere to the right, now became a mix element that I could point my finger at and say, "There!" In addition to the spatial detail, in more general terms, it was like a layer of gauze was removed from the speakers, and I was hearing everything a little bit more crisply. Perhaps call this better high-frequency coherence.
> 
> Also noted was a more snappy dynamic response, especially from the drum set. The kick drum consistently across different mixes spoke more clearly in its transient attack. Again a tight coherent sound, even when the mastering got a little more pushed in level. Very defined, direct, and exciting.


 
 PS - Very Audiophilish description from an audio Engineer!  Boy we have come along way baby!
  
 When the REDNET3 arrives next week - I will be able to try the excellent Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB with it.  Both as an ext word clock - and as a SPDIF reclocker.
 Very versatile unit.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> +1
> 
> With these devices it is not so much abouth the highest, most perfect accuracy of the clock itself, but about the synchonicity of the connected devices int he studio.


 

 Yes you are correct - a lot has to do with the design of the devices PLL circuit:


> To synchronize to an external reference signal, a converter typically utilizes aPLL circuit controlling an internal oscillator. Compromises exist in choosing a PLL design that favors the internal oscillator or the external reference. A converter with a "slow" narrowband PLL mated to a low-jitter internal oscillator won't change much in sound between running off its internal clock or a high-quality external one. A converter with a "fast" wideband PLL, which is often employed to reduce the jitter of the paired internal oscillator, can sound better with a high-quality external clock. On the other hand, a converter with a "fast" PLL mated to a low-jitter oscillator might actually sound worse when running off an external reference that exhibits more jitter than the internal oscillator. And a converter with a "slow" PLL driving a suboptimal internal oscillator will always sound bad, no matter the reference.
> 
> Conclusion: A "slow" PLL converter, good or bad, won't sound any better with an external clock. But a high-quality external clock _can _improve the performance of a "fast" PLL converter. Moreover, an external clock with lower close-in phase noise (narrowband jitter at frequencies close to the carrier frequency) has a better chance of improving the sound of a "fast" PLL converter.


----------



## wsz0304

evilhippie said:


> My DHL shipping number issued 5 days ago hasn't had any movement, and still only reports shipping info received.  I'm waiting patiently as well...


could you give your name,I will check the tracking number.


----------



## wsz0304

evilhippie said:


> My DHL shipping number issued 5 days ago hasn't had any movement, and still only reports shipping info received.  I'm waiting patiently as well...


sorry again.thans for your waiting.your F-1 on the way now


----------



## wsz0304

sbgk said:


> Can the xmos chip really be soldered by hand ?


yes,main part by hand.thank you


----------



## juanitox

wsz0304 said:


> yes,stock available.thank you for your support and turst.


 
 Hi i have a paypal claim against you as you did not communicate on eBay , seems now you prefer appears here to arrange things.
 i will be happy to stop this bad story when i will be refund.


----------



## ciphercomplete

Anybody have any experience with PCIexp AES cards like those from Digigram, Lynx or the Marian Seraph D4?


----------



## rw35

Has anyone got any spare Valium for juanitox?
  
 Only joking mate... but I knew he wasn't a crook.
  
 Deep breath and focus on the positives in life.


----------



## rb2013

When will the madness end????
  
http://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/106/mc-3-smart-clock/
  


> _Alex DeTurk is at alexanderdeturk@yahoo.com_​
> When Andy reached out to me about the _MUTEC MC-3+ Smart Clock _and told me that *some audiophiles were daisy-chaining two of them in re-clock mode for extreme jitter reduction*, my ears perked up. Two clocks in series? Those nutty audiophiles! Of course...I told Andy to make sure MUTEC sent two clocks.
> 
> Re-clocking is different than using an external clock. Let me try to explain. In the case of using an external clock, a device accepts a clock input from an external device's clock and uses that as its timing reference. In re-clocking, the entire digital audio stream (including the clock signal of the "transmitter") is sent to a second unit downstream that strips the transmitter's clock signal and sends the data stream back out with a new clock signal — thus the term "re-clock."


 


> So when is re-clocking a useful tool? Whenever you must use a device that is introducing unacceptable jitter during the transmission. In my listening tests with Matthew Agoglia at his studio The Ranch <www.theranchmastering.com>, it was predictable that the _MC-3+ _in re-clock mode improved the sound of a 10+ year old Sony CDP-M12 CD player, as it contains older technology (10 years is a whole era in digital tech), and it wasn't a particularly high-end piece in the first place. Also predictably, the _MC-3+ _did not improve the sound of the data stream coming off of a Forssell MADA-2 converter, as that piece is very recent and of the highest quality.


 


> What was interesting when using the _MC-3+ _in re-clock mode on the not-so-great CD-player, however, was daisy-chaining two of the clocks together. I'm about to step into audiophile-speak here, but we were able to hear increased detail in the recording, improved sound staging, and more sense of space around the instruments. We didn't conduct jitter measurements, so we can't confirm that this is because double re-clocking was more stable (we assume that's the case). Regardless, Matthew and I were rather pleased with the sound of the re-clocked CD data stream, and *we were more impressed when there were two of the MUTEC units in series.*


----------



## rb2013

Question:  Since the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock can do multiple thing simultaneously.  Can it act as an ext word clock AND a SPDIF reclocker at the same time???
  
 Whoa!  Wouldn't that be killer, if it could.


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> That is a really good point for ext clocking.  I don't think so for SPDIF reclocking.
> 
> But in the Pink Papers clock show down - that was true to a degree with the addition of an atomic clock to a crystal based word clock.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cool... interested on how that turns out, based on the SOS article, buffering and re-clocking inline _should_ sound best.
  
 (despite the SOS article, I use an old Lucid GENx192 clock in my studio to sync Cubase, multiple AD boxes and a Tascam DA-3000)


----------



## rb2013

Interesting post on CA from the creator of the HQ Player:
  


> 04-29-2016, 05:44 PM#14​​
> *Miska*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Cool... interested on how that turns out, based on the SOS article, buffering and re-clocking inline _should_ sound best.
> 
> (despite the SOS article, I use an old Lucid GENx192 clock in my studio to sync Cubase, multiple AD boxes and a Tascam DA-3000)


 

 Yes on my Audio over IP thread I reposted some discussions from CA about the issues with latency on shared master clocks tethered together in a studio LAN chain.  Long cable distances are an issue.  We are dealing with femto clocks - so a distance of meters matter - even with signals traveling near the speed of light.  Now I guess a 'sync' setting can overcome this?  Not really sure how studio installs solve this.  Or with TCP/IP proctocols this is not an issue?  Only it increases latency between devices, but not inherently jitter.  Like the GB LAN Iso USB extender - no matter the distance (to a 100M) or switches in between.
  
 So I guess in an audiophile setting - a very short (6 inches or less) 75ohm cable from the ext word clock to the REDNET 3 input would be best.
  
 PS This is the same issue faced with external i2s cabling.


----------



## rb2013

More interesting stuff from MIska on REDNET AOIP (judging from the questions, man folks really misunderstand this technology):
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/ethernet-input-dacs-28414/
  


> 04-30-2016, 12:35 PM#18​​
> *Miska*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

Also a very interesting discussion from 2014 on CA - man we have come along way in a short time!
  
 The Unicorn has been found!
  



> 09-13-2014, 08:48 PM#11​​
> *Superdad*
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/lan-input-dacs-21722/


----------



## rb2013

Another good AES67 AOIP site - Livewire+:
 https://www.telosalliance.com/support/Sound-Card-Replacements


----------



## rb2013

> 09-14-2014, 11:34 AM#17​​
> *Miska*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## juanitox

rw35 said:


> Has anyone got any spare Valium for juanitox?
> 
> Only joking mate... but I knew he wasn't a crook.
> 
> Deep breath and focus on the positives in life.


 

 i swear i will stop the coffee , even if he tried to appears now as the white knight , for me it's still a bad experience card ordered 3 weeks ago , no communication , no shipping , neither refund ..


----------



## rw35

juanitox said:


> i swear i will stop the coffee , even if he tried to appears now as the white knight , for me it's still a bad experience card ordered 3 weeks ago , no communication , no shipping , neither refund ..


 
  
 Nobody is but you're right that his comms were not up to par, but looks like after I jogged him he's woken up.
  
 It's ok to back on the coffee, but beer is much better.


----------



## juanitox

rb2013 said:


> Also a very interesting discussion from 2014 on CA - man we have come along way in a short time!
> 
> The Unicorn has been found!
> 
> ...


 

 ethernet is exactly the same pain in the ass as Usb as we also have debate between ethernet cable CAT6 vs CAT6e vs CAT7 etc.. no Intona after  the microrendu but i use an acousense ethernet isolator before it..


----------



## rb2013

juanitox said:


> ethernet is exactly the same pain in the ass as Usb as we also have debate between ethernet cable CAT6 vs CAT6e vs CAT7 etc.. no Intona after  the microrendu but i use an acousense ethernet isolator before it..


 

 There is nothing about AES67 that equals USB or that DNLA 'solution' either.  Haven't read much of this thread have you.
  
 And well the fact you're using the flawed DNLA/UpNP speaks volumes. 
  
 The fact that a higher std CAT6 might out perform a CAT5 - is not surprising.  If you're using a CAT6e or CAT 7 STP cable well - you have no galvanic isolation - without adding in your ethernet isolator.  You create the problem that you then need to solve.  Makes little sense.  What so you can have some macho over engineered 1/2 pound metal rj45 connector?  Design for +2G lateral acceleration - like the intona?
  
 Oh to then to use a USB device after the microrendu is even more insanity.  Take galvanicaly isolated ethernet - galvanicaly couple it - to now have to add a galvanic isolator to then run to USB device that then needs that bauky Intona to again galvanicaly isolate it is nuts.  All to be trapped into having to use a UpNP player.
  
 Next....


----------



## rb2013

I like this solution better:
  
 PC Ethernet>REDNET 3>DAC


----------



## rb2013

The ode to DNLA/UpNP:
  
*Superdad*




 Music lover; Owner, UpTone Audio

​ Join Date​ Apr 2008
Location​ Mariposa, California
Posts​ 3,833





> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> to implement a DLNA renderer. The processor and processing it goes





> through is immense. And from the s/w side, the architecture sucks as





> well (for just one developer's screed





> see:





> Why do I hate DLNA protocol so much ? | Ben's Lost World - Diary of a GeeXboX developer).





> Sorry, but to me, DLNA and purist audio are like oil and water.


 


​


----------



## rb2013

*Miska*





 Masters Level Member Join Date​ Apr 2010
Location​ Finland
Posts​ 6,786
Blog Entries​ 12





> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> level. USB audio interface is much much lower level interface thanUPnP/AV.
> 
> For UAC you have three layers:
> 1) USB PHY
> ...





> samples that suit as-is your DAC. In case of UPnP you could have blocks of MP3 or





> FLAC data that you still need to decode and play... I don't know any case where you





> would send MP3 or FLAC packets for DAC to be decoded over USB...
> 
> Usually in neither case the "one implementation" is entire stack. For UAC





> implementations usually (3) and for UPnP/AV implementations (6)... Rest of the stack is





> coming from elsewhere.


 


​


----------



## ciphercomplete

Unless there is a way for the word (master) clock to automatically select the correct frequency I'm not all that interested in a separate clock.  I skipped over those old M2Tech multibox solutions for that reason.
  
 The SU-1 doesnt look like it has a user selectable clock frequency.  The actual data would have to go through the SU-1 before it would know what frequency to select.  I think the SU-1 is suitable for dacs with a wordclock input so the data goes through it and it knows which clock frequency to output to the dacs wordclock input.
  
 Not sure how that would work with the Rednet without some sort of communication between the Rednet and the SU-1 other than the Wordclock link.
  
 Do we know for sure that the Rednet 3's internal clock is bad enough that it needs to be replaced?
  
 The Mutec master clock and reclocker seems like it might work with the chain being PC->Rednet->AES out->Mutec->DAC.  That way there is no need to actually output the wordclock signal to the rednet. But now we are talking about $1500 for the Rednet and the Mutec...
  
 This would work but again you have the issue of manual frequency selection http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-000M-Ultra-Precision-Low-Noise-RB-Word-Rubidium-Atomic-Clock-Generator-HIFI-/281937108477?hash=item41a4c2ddfd:g:4UgAAOSwa-dWnPzg
  
 That puts us at $2000+ and manual frequency selection for those of us who are not lazy.
  
 Or this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1223806-REG/antelope_ocxhd_isochrone_ocx_hd_master.html  accepts digital input from Rednet - outputs digital with new clock signal.


----------



## ciphercomplete

Forgot all about Empirical Audio's Synchro-Mesh- probably the cheapest (best for the money) solution.  PC->Rednet->Sychro Mesh -> DAC.  This would be the route I would go if it is determined that the Rednet 3's clock isnt worth a damn.  I kind of doubt the Rednet's clock is awful though.


----------



## wushuliu

Just fired up a Soekris DAC w/ F-1 I2S input. Sounds better than any budget DAC I've heard yet.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> Unless there is a way for the word (master) clock to automatically select the correct frequency I'm not all that interested in a separate clock.  I skipped over those old M2Tech multibox solutions for that reason.
> 
> The SU-1 doesnt look like it has a user selectable clock frequency.  The actual data would have to go through the SU-1 before it would know what frequency to select.  I think the SU-1 is suitable for dacs with a wordclock input so the data goes through it and it knows which clock frequency to output to the dacs wordclock input.
> 
> ...


 

 Excellent points - I had the M2Tech Evo and liked it a lot - esp with a LPS power supply - but never went for the clock.  But if you look at the CA ranking on the DDC shootout it did jump considerably with the Evo clock:


> The results of the 'first round' of the shootout were as follows:​​ ​ Matrix 24/96 - 60​​ Hegel HD2 - 65​​ Musical Fidelity V-Link II - 75​​ *Stello CDT-100 - 75​*​ *Bryston BDP-1 - 80​*​ Halide Design The Bridge - 80 (+5 when powered from​SOtM​USBcard)​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo - 80​​ Stello U3 - 85​​ JK SPDIF Mk3 - 90​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply - 90​​ Audiophilleo 1/2 - 95​​ Empirical Audio Off Ramp Turbo 5 - 95​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply + Evo Clock - 100​​ *dCS Scarlatti CD/SACD transport - 100​*(+5 when used with dCS​DACand the Clock Link feature enabled)​


 
  
 Since the 'Red' line for Focusrite is their totl level - I'm sure the clock is very good - but very good on a proaudio level.  For us 'crazy' audiophiles maybe not so much.
 Regardless from Muziqboy's experience it is clearly good enough.
  
 Well the 'Smart Clock' part of the Mutec should be smart enough to detect the required freq - it certainly change freq as a SPDIF reclocker on the F-1 as I changed the Foobar SoX output freq.
  
 We will know next week when the RD3 arrives.
  
 Now the chain you speak of is just another SPDIF reclocker scheme - just on AES vs SPDIF coax.  I will give that a go as well.  The experience on my APL DAC is it made a very small difference - but was better then the Remedy.
  
 The REDNET 3 has both input and output word clock BNCs.  The Isochrome OCX is just like the Mutech, that is a Crystal reclocker.  Only the Mutec has a much better 1Ghz clock and a prop clock divider scheme.  The MUtec can be maunally set as an ext  clock through it's control functions.  But as it's a more modern unit then the Isochrome OCX - it should auto detect the appropiate signal.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> Forgot all about Empirical Audio's Synchro-Mesh- probably the cheapest (best for the money) solution.  PC->Rednet->Sychro Mesh -> DAC.  This would be the route I would go if it is determined that the Rednet 3's clock isnt worth a damn.  I kind of doubt the Rednet's clock is awful though.


 

 This is a reclocker like the W4S Remedy I have.  It is not bit perfect - but uses ASRC to resample to 96kHz.
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/08/wyred4sound-remedy-spdif-reclocker-review/
  
 The W4S Remedy does the same only using a Crystek CCHD-575 clock and is cheaper (at least I paid $250 for mine on Audiogon).  It does do a great job with my R2R PCM1704UK DAC60.  Since these true R2R DAC chips are limited to 24 bits and 96Khz it's a perfect match.  But on my APL DAC it actually slightly degraded the SQ (resampling the 192k down to 96khz)
  
 The Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock is more advanced and did sound better on my my DAC 60 - but for that purpose way overkill.
  
 I agree on the RD3 clocking - after reading about the JetPLL licensed tech (that Weiss also uses), which while old technology, this jitter reduction scheme is quiet effective.  On even a run of the mill XO clock should yield excellent jitter/phase noise numbers.  Although I have not been able to find any.
  
 I have also not been able to locate a nudie board photo of the RD3 - so that'll be posted before very long by me.  That'll be a lot more telling.
 Interesting that the RD3 ONLY does these sample rates - no 176.4kHz.

 Supported sample rates
 44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 / 192 kHz


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Just fired up a Soekris DAC w/ F-1 I2S input. Sounds better than any budget DAC I've heard yet.


 

 Nice!  which Soekris?  The new board?


----------



## wushuliu

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  which Soekris?  The new board?




Revision 3 2016.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Revision 3 2016.


 

 Looks like a match made in heaven.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> The W4S Remedy does the same only using a Crystek CCHD-575 clock and is cheaper (at least I paid $250 for mine on Audiogon).  It does do a great job with my R2R PCM1704UK DAC60.  *Since these true R2R DAC chips are limited to 24 bits and 96Khz* it's a perfect match. ...


 
  
 Hi Rob:
  
 Sorry, that is not correct.  PCM1704 chips can accept up to 768Khz.  I feed my custom 1704K NOS DAC 384Khz (SRC courtesy of HQ Player), and the 1704-based Phasure NOS1a accepts 768Khz.


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> I like this solution better:
> 
> PC Ethernet>REDNET 3>DAC


 

 Amen to that!
  
 IMO a lot simpler and better SQ!


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Hi Rob:
> 
> Sorry, that is not correct.  PCM1704 chips can accept up to 768Khz.  I feed my custom 1704K NOS DAC 384Khz (SRC courtesy of HQ Player), and the 1704-based Phasure NOS1a accepts 768Khz.


 

 Sorry Alex you are wrong.  I never said that multiple chip configuration could not exceed 96k, just that my DAC60 could not.
  
*Don't put words in my mouth.  That is pretend to correct something I never said.*
  
 The PCM1704 in a single chip per channel configuration is limited to 24 bit 96kHz.  Now like any DAC chip it can be configured into multi-chip higher data rate.  But that is a completely different implementation.
  
 Don't believe me read the BB (TI) datasheet yourself.
 http://datasheet.octopart.com/PCM1704U-Texas-Instruments-datasheet-5356068.pdf


> FEATURES ● SAMPLING FREQUENCY (fS): 16kHz to 96kHz ● 8X OVERSAMPLING AT 96kHz ● INPUT AUDIO DATA WORD: 20-, 24-Bit ● HIGH PERFORMANCE: Dynamic Range: K Grade = 112dB typ SNR: 120dB typ THD+N: K Grade = 0.0008% typ ● FAST CURRENT OUTPUT: ±1.2mA/200ns ● GLITCH-FREE OUTPUT ● PIN-PROGRAMMABLE DATA INVERSION ● POWER SUPPLY: ±5V ● SMALL 20-LEAD SO PACKAGE


 
 Here is my DAC60:

  
 There many implementations of the PCM1704 with multipole chips per channel that exceed 96k. Like the Aqua HiFi LaScala MK2 can do 176k, but requires a four chip configuration.  I have posted about this DAC many times on this thread and the Gustard U12 thread:


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> IMO a lot simpler and better SQ!


 

 Oh brother - 'better SQ' - that's what I'm praying for!
  
 Forget DNLA/UpNP, Forget USB - this could be THE ticket!
  
 Well Thursday I will know.  The big Brown truck drops off a big Red box.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Currawong

wsz0304 said:


> Hey guys, I'm a shop staff of wsz0304.We are sending out F-1 through DHL today.
> We are very sorry about the delay in delivery has put you to great inconvenience.
> First at all,there's a certain matter I want to explain, about F-1 XMOS USB digital interface board this is entirely hand-made and no mass production.In this month's 9th, the first batch of goods produced, we detect POB found the problem.All products returned to the factory to Re manufacture.Our delivery delay is to ensure good quality.
> By the way,We will present the gift as a compensation for the delay in shipment.
> ...


 
  
 Moved this post into this thread. wsz0304, please make sure you read our *Terms of Service*.


----------



## rb2013

After a little digging I found this photo of the Focusrite REDNET PCIe interface card - so a glimpse into what clocking the RD3 uses.
  
 Looks to be at a min a XO with the JetPLL jitter reduction scheme.

  

 Look like this Focusrite board was OEM'd for Yamaha:
  
 Nice looking clocks!


----------



## ginetto61

HI !  sorry but the critical clock is not the one in the receiving end ?  
 i mean without considering reclocking dacs the interface rj45 to spdif will sets the master clock.   
 I mean, with the Dante virtual software just a normal rj45 pc port or cheap ethernet adapter should be enough with the Rednet 3.
 Am i wrong ?  
 regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> HI !  sorry but the critical clock is not the one in the receiving end ?
> i mean without considering reclocking dacs the interface rj45 to spdif will sets the master clock.
> I mean, with the Dante virtual software just a normal rj45 pc port or cheap ethernet adapter should be enough with the Rednet 3.
> Am i wrong ?
> regards, gino



Yes you are right, but is a $1000 PCIe card, not cheap. Just a look at what clocking the RD3 might have. You can use a 
PCIe NIC, but on a newer PC the built in Ethernet should be fine. I have read that Intel improved the GB LAN performance in the Haswell chipset.

And kinda funny looking for a GB Intel card that works with WIN10, without needing drivers, couldn't find any at a reasonable cost.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Yes you are right, but is a $1000 PCIe card, not cheap.   Just a look at what clocking the RD3 might have.


 
  
 Hi and thanks and sorry but i have not understood.
 I was thinking that using the DVS software only the RD3 is really needed.   Am i wrong ?
 Any ethernet port on the bus or on a cheap pcie card can be connected with the RD3 
  


> *You can use a PCIe NIC, *but on a newer PC the built in Ethernet should be fine.  I have read that Intel improved the GB LAN performance in the Haswell chipset.





> And kinda funny looking for a GB Intel card that works with WIN10, without needing drivers, couldn't find any at a reasonable cost.


 
  
  
 You  mean something like this ... quite cheap indeed. 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Gigabit-Dual-PORT-GIGABIT-ETHERNET-PCIe-NIC-Card-EXPI9402PT-NC360T-/171993184025?hash=item280b97b719:g:cc4AAOSwwbdWQZJs
  

  
 Regards,  gino


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> There is nothing about AES67 that equals USB or that DNLA 'solution' either.  Haven't read much of this thread have you.
> 
> And well the fact you're using the flawed DNLA/UpNP speaks volumes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 There is no standard like CAT6e only CAT6a. And it could be UTP (not shielded) - so there is inherent galvanic isolation


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Sure give me a day to rewire.
> 
> It appears the Mutec needs to see 5VDC power on the USB - probably a relay.  Don't think a LPS is needed there.


 
  
 Have you had a chance to compare in these setups?


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> There is no standard like CAT6e only CAT6a. And it could be UTP (not shielded) - so there is inherent galvanic isolation


 

 I think he refers to these 'audiophile' stp CAT6 cables with the mega metal shielding. The the shielding re-introduces galvanic issues - so then he needs to add an expensive etherrnet galvanic isolator.
  
 This is all just 10GB LAN overkill.  Typical audio-nervousa.
  
 http://www.katerno.com/detail/s/661687/p/C7OS-114BK/?_vsrefdom=adwords&gclid=CjwKEAjwpqq6BRC99aKUkaSjuDsSJAC0pNTV_1TyfYSPA5OAl_iKTX9p3Exl5A8uDnG1XWM2MZRzdxoC7iPw_wcB


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Have you had a chance to compare in these setups?


 

 Not yet sorry will do so, wife permitting tonight.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks and sorry but i have not understood.
> I was thinking that using the DVS software only the RD3 is really needed.   Am i wrong ?
> Any ethernet port on the bus or on a cheap pcie card can be connected with the RD3
> 
> ...


 

 No none of these are needed just the existing rj45 ethernet port on your PC (where you connect to the internet).


----------



## vhsownsbeta

F-1 has arrived. As a point of reference, I ordered mine from the ebay store on 12/05. I will be using it 'in-line' between my laptop and Mojo.


----------



## wsz0304

get it,tks


----------



## rb2013

Interesting discussion on Roon RATT  vs AES67  - anybody feel like paying $500 for their software player alone?  Or $120 a yr for life - per machine?
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio/45
  
 OP proposed this closed system as better then the open player choice DANTE or Ravenna - AOIP solution.
  
 From http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/06/roon-review-part-1-walking-on-the/
  


> Users observing Roon pricing against the backdrop of software like Amarra and J Play *might baulk at its US$119 annual fee* but remember, it’s not just a software player in the traditional sense. *A lifetime membership is available for the one-time hit of US$499*. If wish to dip your toe in the water before commiting you have to on the ball. A 14-day trial is available but not until you’ve forked over your credit card details. If you don’t opt-out within those 14 days your card gets charged for the first. Annoyingly, opt-out must be done via email. I suspect we’ll soon see some changes to the way Roon Labs handles its financial side.​


 
  
 Really you have to be kidding me?  $500 for a software player - that's almost what I paid for the REDNET 3...delusional.
  
 Even JRiver MediaCenter is only $49 for a lifetime license.
  
 I have a $120 Asus 10inch tablet that I cruz the internet when not reading a book, when listening in my main room.  Do I need to pay $120/mth to have liner notes - if I want to read about an artist I just look them up on Wiki - way more links and information then Roon meta data.  Plus I can read Headfi instead (which I mostly do), or 6Moons, or DAR, or Tone, or Stereophile, or Computer Audiophile, or...you get the idea.
  
 I predict this Roon -RATT going the way of Squeezebox, Sooloos, etc...


----------



## Gordian

$499 for online data is completely insane, can't agree more


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Sorry Alex you are wrong.  I never said that multiple chip configuration could not exceed 96k, just that my DAC60 could not.
> 
> *Don't put words in my mouth.  That is pretend to correct something I never said.*
> 
> The PCM1704 in a single chip per channel configuration is limited to 24 bit 96kHz.  Now like any DAC chip it can be configured into multi-chip higher data rate.  But that is a completely different implementation.




Sorry Rob, but you are quite incorrect! My single PCM1704K (per channel) DAC has no trouble running at 384Khz, and with a proper USB>I2S board I'd run it at 768Khz. Multi-chip configurations do nothing for increasing sample rate capability.


----------



## ginetto61

> No none of these are needed just the existing rj45 ethernet port on your PC (where you connect to the internet).


 
  
 Hi and thanks again !
 So what is really needed is a bridge unit from rj45 to spdif.
 Something like this one
  
https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-6
  
 what is MADI ? is spdif compatible maybe ?
 argh ...  2100 USD ...
  
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RedNet6
  
 After some listening i have changed my mind.  I am sure i could live perfectly well also with coax spdif.
 I am not very much in high rez or dsd.
 i will wait for a medium price interface.
 Thanks a lot again
 Have a nice day,   gino


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Really you have to be kidding me?  $500 for a software player - that's almost what I paid for the REDNET 3...delusional.
> 
> Even JRiver MediaCenter is only $49 for a lifetime license.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The price is in cuckoo land!
  
 I don't get why some people seem to obsess that all servers MUST HAVE Roon functionality to be viable.
  
 Select track > add to queue > LISTEN to music (in sublime SQ)... is the only functionality I _must have_.


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> I think he refers to these 'audiophile' stp CAT6 cables with the mega metal shielding. The the shielding re-introduces galvanic issues - so then he needs to add an expensive etherrnet galvanic isolator.


 
  
 I think shielded is ok if you remove the metal rj45 cover from one end, thus breaking the galvanic link?
  
 I recently got a short Supra CAT7+ cable going cheap that is rated to 1300 MHz and I removed one of the metal covers, with the main outer cover pulled back I can only see the data wires connected, so with no shield at that end I should be ok.


----------



## Muziqboy

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks again !
> So what is really needed is a bridge unit from rj45 to spdif.
> Something like this one
> 
> ...


 
  
 You want the RedNet 3 ($1000.00) if you only need SPDIF coax or the RedNet D16 ($1600.00) which have both SPDIF coax and AES/EBU connections.


----------



## ccschua

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks and sorry but i have not understood.
> I was thinking that using the DVS software only the RD3 is really needed.   Am i wrong ?
> Any ethernet port on the bus or on a cheap pcie card can be connected with the RD3
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am ordering one of this for my jplay system as I am a fanatic to sound system. Bug Head recommended outboard NIC such as this intel card to avoid loading the CPU. it is recommended to disable the onboard network and sound feature at the BIOS level.


----------



## ginetto61

muziqboy said:


> You want the RedNet 3 ($1000.00) if you only need SPDIF coax or* the RedNet D16 ($1600.00) which have both SPDIF coax and AES/EBU connections*.


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot for the information. 
 Yes ! the D16 would be perfect features wise.
 Still the price is twice the value of my whole playback system  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I hope that something less high end will appear soon.  I need only 2 channels absolutely.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

ccschua said:


>





> I am ordering one of this for my jplay system as I am a fanatic to sound system. Bug Head recommended outboard NIC such as this intel card to avoid loading the CPU.





> it is recommended to disable the onboard network and sound feature at the BIOS level.


 
  
 Hi ! very interesting.  I do not understand with what are you going to use it.
 While i can find many usb to rj45 converter i cannot find rj45 to usb converters.  Maybe that is the final solution ?
 However I would buy one even just to use it as a network adapter.
 It looks seriously built.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## roger7

rw35 said:


> I think shielded is ok if you remove the metal rj45 cover from one end, thus breaking the galvanic link?
> 
> I recently got a short Supra CAT7+ cable going cheap that is rated to 1300 MHz and I removed one of the metal covers, with the main outer cover pulled back I can only see the data wires connected, so with no shield at that end I should be ok.


 
  
 Removing metal covers is not good solution because shielding inside cable (without grounding) can act as antenna. 
 With STP all devices have to be properly grounded.
 In consumer market network, with consumer market LAN devices it is hard to achieve. So better one uses UTP


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> ...
> I predict this Roon -RATT going the way of Squeezebox, Sooloos, etc...


 
  
 I don't know roon or sooloos but
 Squeezebox software (server, players, most plugins) has always been free (GPL) and is maintained by big community till now.


----------



## abartels

roger7 said:


> rw35 said:
> 
> 
> > I think shielded is ok if you remove the metal rj45 cover from one end, thus breaking the galvanic link?
> ...


 
  
 Roger, you are mistaken.
  
 You CAN use ground shield to shield data wires while maintaining galvanic isolation of GND. As NW35 posted, you have to cut-off shield at one side. This way you still have ground galvanic isolated and taking use of EMI/RFI shielding.
  
 BE AWARE that you ALWAYS connect ground shield at SOURCE, just as with ANY good quality interlink, at least the SE ones, you should use ground shield ONLY at source side.
  
 And no, we are not talking about ethernet spec here.


----------



## roger7

abartels said:


> Roger, you are mistaken.
> 
> You CAN use ground shield to shield data wires while maintaining galvanic isolation of GND. As NW35 posted, you have to cut-off shield at one side. This way you still have ground galvanic isolated and taking use of EMI/RFI shielding.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, you're right. My bad I didn't read to "remove metal cover from one end"
 But the source device must be properly grounded.


----------



## rw35

abartels said:


> Roger, you are mistaken.
> 
> You CAN use ground shield to shield data wires while maintaining galvanic isolation of GND. As NW35 posted, you have to cut-off shield at one side. This way you still have ground galvanic isolated and taking use of EMI/RFI shielding.
> 
> ...


 

 My Supra CAT7+ cable connects the TP Link Fibre Media Converter to the Aurender N100, the FMC end has the shield connected as I deem that to be the source, in context of LAN (obviously in terms of music play Aurender is the source).


----------



## abartels

rw35 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Roger, you are mistaken.
> ...


 
  
 That's OK, to be more specific, I meant with SOURCE the side which provides signal, if 5 devices in a row (in series), every time a signal transfers to the following device, you must connect ground wiring at the transmitting side and NOT the receiving side.


----------



## rb2013

gordian said:


> $499 for online data is completely insane, can't agree more


 

 +1  It's not even data - just the player.  At least with Tidal you get content.


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Sorry Rob, but you are quite incorrect! My single PCM1704K (per channel) DAC has no trouble running at 384Khz, and with a proper USB>I2S board I'd run it at 768Khz. Multi-chip configurations do nothing for increasing sample rate capability.


 

 Well then the producers of the chip TI as wrong as well - it's right off their product data sheet...
  
 http://datasheet.octopart.com/PCM1704U-Texas-Instruments-datasheet-5356068.pdf


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks again !
> So what is really needed is a bridge unit from rj45 to spdif.
> Something like this one
> 
> ...


 

 No it's this - REDNET 3


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> The price is in cuckoo land!
> 
> I don't get why some people seem to obsess that all servers MUST HAVE Roon functionality to be viable.
> 
> Select track > add to queue > LISTEN to music (in sublime SQ)... is the only functionality I _must have_.


 

 Right again!  It took me a half hour when I first set-up Foobar to take the UI from this:


  to this:

  
 Run the free Fusion player on my Galaxy S6 phone and Asus tablet.
  
 I have Foobar 2000 installed in four places - Home office, listening room, work laptop, person laptop - so I would need 4 Roon licenses - $2000 upfront or $480/yr - yeah right.

 For security purposes my home office music server and listening server are not hooked up to the internet.  All those pushed updates are a nightmare anyway.  No internet = no troubles or virus risk.
  
 Each CD burnt on EAC is run through another PC that uses Kapersky to scan.  Just in case.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> No it's this - REDNET 3


 
  
 Hi ! thanks again !
  
 Beautiful indeed !
  
http://lghttp.50970.nexcesscdn.net/8029F77/vk/media/catalog/product/f/o/focusrite_rednet3_rear.jpg
  
 it has also AES/EBU ins/outs I guess through a breakout cable ?
 when I see rca for spdif I smile.  Rcas have no place on something digital an professional. Why not bnc that are designed for the purpose ?
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I am ordering one of this for my jplay system as I am a fanatic to sound system. Bug Head recommended outboard NIC such as this intel card to avoid loading the CPU. it is recommended to disable the onboard network and sound feature at the BIOS level.


 

 Thanks!  Are you running WIN10?  Looking for a NIC that requires no drivers, native WI10 support.


----------



## rw35

abartels said:


> That's OK, to be more specific, I meant with SOURCE the side which provides signal, if 5 devices in a row (in series), every time a signal transfers to the following device, you must connect ground wiring at the transmitting side and NOT the receiving side.


 

 Cool gotcha, all good.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! thanks again !
> 
> Beautiful indeed !
> 
> ...


 

 Yes Sub-D. SPDIF seems to work just great.  Listening last night I gotta say my main system - with the Uber USB chain is sounding pretty amazing. 
  
 Can this AOIP REDNET3 beat it?  I really find that hard to believe - we will see on Thursday!


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> I don't know roon or sooloos but
> Squeezebox software (server, players, most plugins) has always been free (GPL) and is maintained by big community till now.


 

 SB is free - you can not uses your favorite player with it - hence a 'closed' system like Roon-RATT.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Yes Sub-D. SPDIF seems to work just great.  Listening last night I gotta say my main system - with the Uber USB chain is sounding pretty amazing.
> Can this AOIP REDNET3 beat it?  I really find that hard to believe - we will see on Thursday!


 
  
 Very interesting.  So you are going to use it from spdif coax ?  those connectors ... I really do no like them ... look poor.
 In such a unit ... however the proof is in the listening.
 Let us know your reactions.
 Kind regards, gino


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Yes Sub-D. SPDIF seems to work just great.  Listening last night I gotta say my main system - with the Uber USB chain is sounding pretty amazing.
> 
> Can this AOIP REDNET3 beat it?  I really find that hard to believe - we will see on Thursday!


 

 My gut feeling is that it won't beat your current setup as you have already addressed the_ known _weaknesses of USB.
  
 If it does it might only shade it, giving you an awkward value proposition decision.
  
 Regardless, I look forward to your thoughts on it.
  
 Because I'm using an Aurender I have no chance of trying it for myself for the foreseeable future (very happy with current SQ).
  
 I agree however that when domestic hi-end companies adopt this tech (or similar), it will likely excel.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Very interesting.  So you are going to use it from spdif coax ?  those connectors ... I really do no like them ... look poor.
> In such a unit ... however the proof is in the listening.
> Let us know your reactions.
> Kind regards, gino


 

 Focusrite uses them in all their top of the line REDNET boxes - I'm sure it's up to the task.
  
 The SQ is what matters.


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> My gut feeling is that it won't beat your current setup as you have already addressed the_ known _weaknesses of USB.
> 
> If it does it might only shade it, giving you an awkward value proposition decision.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes I agree - that is what I expect.  If it just shades it.I will keep the RD3 and use the other gear in my office system - but maybe trimmed down some.
  
 Now if the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock - takes the RD3 up to a new level - I will sell my main listening USB chain and use the funds for a Mutec.
  
 So a couple of decision points for the end of the week.
  
 Listening to my favorite Modest Mouse albums - have not heard in a long while.   Just floored at the presentation - it was really excellent.  Especially the mid-bass and bass - just captivatiing.


----------



## roger7

ginetto61 said:


> Very interesting.  So you are going to use it from spdif coax ?  those connectors ... I really do no like them ... look poor.
> In such a unit ... however the proof is in the listening.
> Let us know your reactions.
> Kind regards, gino


 
  
 There is also Rednet D16 AES with direct AES/EBU connections (IN/OUT) and SPDIF.
 https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-d16-aes


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Focusrite uses them in all their top of the line REDNET boxes - I'm sure it's up to the task.
> The SQ is what matters.


 
  
 Yes.  I think that rca has at last established itself as a standard de facto also for digital connections.
 Some manufacturers try to resist and put also bnc ... but it is a tough fight. 
 Still there is much better ...
  
http://www.len.co.uk/images/127.jpg
  
 Regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> There is also Rednet D16 AES with direct AES/EBU connections (IN/OUT) and SPDIF.
> https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-d16-aes


 

 Yes but $1600 - so don't know if just getting AES not from a breakout cable is worth the extra $600.
  
 It is a very nice unit though - I think that is the one Mike got.


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> SB is free - you can not uses your favorite player with it - hence a 'closed' system like Roon-RATT.


 
  
 It all depends what is your favorite player 
 Mine is SB Touch and squeezelite which I can use everywhere in my house from one server(PC/NAS etc) 
 Hardware players (SBT) isn't of course free


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *roger7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> There is also Rednet D16 AES with direct AES/EBU connections (IN/OUT) and SPDIF.
> https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-d16-aes


 
  
 Hi ! thanks and yes this is what I was looking at ... but even more expensive.
  
https://us.focusrite.com/sites/default/files/focusrite/products/RedNet/RedNetAESD16_Rear.jpg
  
 I hope for  rj45 cheaper solutions.   I do not need network features ... and just good digital in/out.    For now I am using a Tascam uh-7000. 
 Regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Yes.  I think that rca has at last established itself as a standard de facto also for digital connections.
> Some manufacturers try to resist and put also bnc ... but it is a tough fight.
> Still there is much better ...
> 
> ...


 

 Look at the ones Schiit uses on their totl $2400 Yggie:
  
 Not to impressive to look at - but I trust they know what they are doing.

  
  
 For me I prefer these:
 I upgraded a Breeze DU-U8 spdif and it made a small improvement:

  
  
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/product9725.html


----------



## roger7

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! thanks and yes this is what I was looking at ... but even more expensive.
> 
> https://us.focusrite.com/sites/default/files/focusrite/products/RedNet/RedNetAESD16_Rear.jpg
> 
> ...


 
  
 Expensive, of course , but designed for pro audio, with all multiple channels and solutions/capabilities one does not need in stereo.
 But AFAIK there is no two channel audiophile solution yet


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> It all depends what is your favorite player
> Mine is SB Touch and squeezelite which I can use everywhere in my house from one server(PC/NAS etc)
> Hardware players (SBT) isn't of course free


 

 Yes that is the point  - s/w open to players and hardware.
  
 I use separate systems as method of redundancy - one backs the other up - with back ups of the back ups.
  
 Paranoid - yes!


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Expensive, of course , but designed for pro audio, with all multiple channels and solutions/capabilities one does need in stereo.
> But AFAIK there is two channel audiophile solution yet


 

 I hope some folks on the audiophile side of the business are reading these threads!  There is a huge market for a 2 channel AES67 DDC.
 With Ravenna support - can not see how difficult it could be to design.
  
 Focusrite would be the right candidate for this product as well - with DANTE.
  
 I have seen this all play out before.  With the adoption of USB 2.0 Audio Async - and it did eventually move to simpler and cheaper boxes.
  
 Then funny it went the other way - to more expensive boxes up to the Berkeley.
  
 Who had one of these?  I did! $150 - March 2010 6moons review - http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/m2tech/hiface.html

  
 From that to this: $1600


----------



## roger7

Sorry, corrected:
  
 Quote:


roger7 said:


> Expensive, of course , but designed for pro audio, with all multiple channels and solutions/capabilities one does *not* need in stereo.
> But AFAIK there is *no *two channel audiophile solution yet


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Right again!  It took me a half hour when I first set-up Foobar to take the UI from this:
> 
> 
> to this:
> ...


 
  
 You can easy change foobar's look with skin like DarkOne (i'm using it right now)
 http://tedgo.deviantart.com/art/DarkOne-v4-360862076
 But it doesn't matter in the end because it's uncomfortable to control foobar with keyboard and monitor when you sit at the front of your speakers.
 For searching the library I'm using Facets (the best I found). I have all files properly tagged. Using just file names and directory structure (artists\album) is a nightmare with big collection.
 But of course it's inconvenient to change music/playlist/etc. going to computer and back.
 So I'm using FoobarCon Pro or Foobar2000 controller Pro from android tablet to control playback on computer. It's not the best solution but can live with that.
 Have you found something better?
  
 But still for me best convenience and at least the same SQ is squeezebox universum (Logitech Media Server) and very good android contollers like Squeeze Ctrl or Orange Squeeze and iPenq for iOs.
 And with hardware player like SBT you get the Ethernet to USB/SPDIF conversion.
 Of course it's questionable if it's the same quality as Icron solution.
 Of course YMMV


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> You can easy change foobar's look with skin like DarkOne (i'm using it right now)
> http://tedgo.deviantart.com/art/DarkOne-v4-360862076
> But it doesn't matter in the end because it's uncomfortable to control foobar with keyboard and monitor when you sit at the front of your speakers.
> For searching the library I'm using Facets (the best I found). I have all files properly tagged. Using just file names and directory structure (artists\album) is a nightmare with big collection.
> ...


 

 Well I use a MS compatible remote to change tracks and pause/play.  I really don't mind getting up to pick an album to listen to or change playlists (I do a lot with custom play lists - like delete tracks I don't like, mix SACD, Redbook and LPs together). Foobar has a very powerful playlist feature.
 Are we all that lazy that we must be able to switch albums on a tablet from our chair?  Anyway I have to get up to refill my wine glass!
  
 In my office my music PC sits on the side of my desk - that's a no brainer.
  
 The opposite I have found a file/directory structure the best for a large collection (mine now at 2,882 cds).  Ask me any artist and I can tell you what albums I have in 30 seconds or less.
 But again it's the playlists in Foobar that make for the greatest convience.  - No endless swapping of a screen or scrolling across album covers.  And my remote is small and easily fits on the small table next to my listen chair in the middle of the room.  I have a remote for my amp as well to control vol.  No room for a big screen.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Well then the producers of the chip TI as wrong as well - it's right off their product data sheet...




No, it is only you who is wrong on this one. And they do reference 768Khz in their datasheet--as 8x oversampling. People have been running the PCM1704 at high rates for decades, and TI's own DF1704--the companion digital filter chip to the PCM1704--also does 8x SRC to feed the DAC at 768Khz.

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/df1704.pdf

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/220407-drive-nos-ad1865-62-pcm1704-02-63-tda1541-fifo-universal-i2s-pcm-driver-board-53.html

I hope this settles the matter for you. I also hope you realize that I don't make up facts. I've been in this industry--and on this planet--for too long to bother with fictions.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Look at the ones Schiit uses on their totl $2400 Yggie:
> Not to impressive to look at - but I trust they know what they are doing.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi !   well i see also a nice bnc and aes/ebu options.
 my very trivial point is that on a digital scope (to name an equipment that deals with digital signals)  you do not see many rcas connections, i guess for a reason 
 But ok ... no reason to quarrel ... 
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *roger7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Expensive, of course , but designed for pro audio, with all multiple channels and solutions/capabilities one does not need in stereo.
> But AFAIK there is no two channel audiophile solution yet


 
  
 Hi just to precise that i am not saying that the price is not in line with the performance of the unit.
 Maybe instead is a huge bargain considering performance and features.  I am not a pro so i have no clue.
 The market success will tell. 
 Only that i would need a much more basic interface.
 As i said one rj45 input and spdif in/out and stop.   
 Strange that nothing shows on the diy market ... 
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> I still have some question on clocking as raised in the CA thread on Audio over IP.  Anybody know what kind of clocks in the REDNET 3?  A board photo would be great!


 
  
@rb2013 Here's some Red porn for your viewing pleasure!


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Yes Sub-D. SPDIF seems to work just great.  Listening last night I gotta say my main system - with the Uber USB chain is sounding pretty amazing.
> 
> Can this AOIP REDNET3 beat it?  I really find that hard to believe - we will see on Thursday!


 
  
 Even if it does not beat your Uber USB set-up but is only on par with it,
 Will you not want to go with just a single box solution instead of a mile-long USB chain?


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> I hope some folks on the audiophile side of the business are reading these threads!  There is a huge market for a 2 channel AES67 DDC.
> With Ravenna support - can not see how difficult it could be to design.




Okay, I'll try again, but I will try to make it simpler, and I'll give it to you from the perspective of the "audiophile manufacturer." Since you again got up in arms at me in your other thread, I realized you think I am just being a naysayer to change, when in fact I have been studying and trying to find ways to offer Ethernet DAC solutions since 2005--way before most of the proprietary pro-sound/broadcast solutions even arrived.
(In 2007, at Hovland Company we presented at CES an ahead of its time CD reader/DAC/music server with 4" color screen, Ethernet, USB, S/PDIF, and credit card sized Linux CompuLab module. I'm on my iPad or I'd post some links and pics. The product remained in pre-production state while we worked on a higher priority piece--until we closed our doors in 2009.)

So let's say I am a DAC or DDC maker in the audiophile space today, and I'd like to offer a product with Ethernet input based on AES67/Ravenna. What components and resources are presently available for me to do so?

Well, given that Ethernet host rendering endpoints require a processor and a full stack with Linux core to be written (can't just throw an XMOS chip at it) that's a MAJOR investment and I'd be best off OEMing a small, pre-designed module for the task. Presently, the only one that comes close to being affordable and appropriate for a 2-channel prouduct is the BACH-minuet from Coveloz (http://coveloz.com/bach-aes67-ethernet-avb-pro-audio-networking-and-processing-fpga-platform/). Nice MAX10 module, but still not cheap (signed NDA prevents me from disclosing their OEM pricing).

Okay, so the BACH-minuet, if I can reach Coveloz minimum buy levels, covers me on the input side, and frees us to focus on the clocking, power supplies, and I2S to S/PDIF or DAC side--all the fun stuff where the music magic happens and where we (as in "we", any given audiophile digital product designer/company) are most adept.

So just integrate the module with all the other elements of the product and bring it to market, right? Oh wait, not so fast, we need customers to be able to actually play to our new AES67/Ravenna device which they just plugged into their network. Of course for that we need to be able to provide what is typically known as "virtual sound card" software--which fools any user's music player app into seeing the computer's Ethernet port as a sound card that it can play to. And since people use Windows, Macs, and Linux machines, we should provide the s/w for each of those platforms.

Now, writing such virtual sound card s/w (VSC from here on to save typing) in house would be massively expensive, take a few programmers, and lots of time. Plus it has to be maintained annually to remain compatible with new OS releases on each platform. Totally out of the question for most audio firms (that rabbit hole turned Linn into a company with 4 times the number of s/w programmers than hardware engineers).

Really, Ethernet VSC support should be part of the OS, but hey, it's 2016 and Microsoft doesn't even have UAC2 support in Windows 10, so don't hold your breath here.

Ah, but the AES67/Ravenna consortium is supposed to help out here right? Do they, or one of the AES67 partner firms just give out--or at least license for some fee--VSC for all platforms? Uh, no.
Merging Technologies wrote a VSC for OS X to support their studio hardware and their NADAC, but they don't license it for others to use.
ALC NetworX, one of the key players in the AES67/Ravenna movement--their own web page redirects to the Ravenna site--gives out their Ravenna VSC, but it just for Windows (Win 7!) and just supports up to 96Khz. The s/w and user manual are awful, and they remind users that PC clocking has a lot of jitter, so there must be an AES67/Ravenna GrandMaster clock installed somewhere on the network to obtain acceptable performance. Oh yeah, that's not built into the Coveloz BACH-minuet module.

I could go on, but my point is, that despite proclamations and simplifications to the contrary, there are PLENTY of reasons why you do not today see Ethernet DACs and DDCs popping up based on AES67/Ravenna, or Dante. Maybe in two more years, though I'd rather see some simpler--and better sounding (read fewer s/w layers in VSC and less of an overwrought clocking scheme, one not primarily designed for studio/ broadcast/venue applications).

Again, we just are not there yet!

--Alex C.


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> No, it is only you who is wrong on this one. And they do reference 768Khz in their datasheet--as 8x oversampling. People have been running the PCM1704 at high rates for decades, and TI's own DF1704--the companion digital filter chip to the PCM1704--also does 8x SRC to feed the DAC at 768Khz.
> 
> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/df1704.pdf
> 
> ...


 

 So they replaced the DF1704?  I live and I learn - this old 1704 dog can learn new tricks.  Well I do know that my DAC60 is limited to 96k as it uses the DF1704 - and my original point was the the W4S Remedy was a good sounding match.
  
 BTW this is not fiction - but fact as taken directly from the PCM1704 TI datasheet specs:
 http://datasheet.octopart.com/PCM1704U-Texas-Instruments-datasheet-5356068.pdf


> 24-Bit, 96kHz BiCMOS Sign-Magnitude DIGITAL-TO-ANALOG CONVERTER
> 
> FEATURES ● SAMPLING FREQUENCY (fS): 16kHz to 96kHz ● 8X OVERSAMPLING AT 96kHz ● INPUT AUDIO DATA WORD: 20-, 24-Bit ● HIGH PERFORMANCE: Dynamic Range: K Grade = 112dB typ SNR: 120dB typ THD+N: K Grade = 0.0008% typ ● FAST CURRENT OUTPUT: ±1.2mA/200ns ● GLITCH-FREE OUTPUT ● PIN-PROGRAMMABLE DATA INVERSION ● POWER SUPPLY: ±5V ● SMALL 20-LEAD SO PACKAGE © 1998 Burr-Brown Corporation PDS-1454C Printed in U.S.A. February, 1999 TM DESCRIPTION The PCM1704 is a precision, 24-bit digital-to-analog converter with exceptionally high dynamic performance. The ultra-low distortion and excellent lowlevel signal performance makes the PCM1704 an ideal candidate for high-end consumer and professional audio applications. When used with a digital interpolation filter, the PCM1704 supports 8X oversampling at 96kHz. The PCM1704 incorporates a BiCMOS sign-magnitude architecture that eliminates glitches and other nonlinearities around bipolar zero. The PCM1704 is precision laser-trimmed at the factory to minimize differential linearity and gain errors. In addition to high performance audio systems, the PCM1704 is well-suited to waveform synthesis applications requiring very low distortion and noise.


 


> DISCUSSION OF KEY SPECIFICATIONS TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION + NOISE (THD+N) This is the key specification for the PCM1704. Digital data words are read into the PCM1704 at eight times the standard DVD audio sampling frequency of 96kHz (e.g., 8 x 96kHz = 768kHz) to create a sinewave output of 1100Hz. The output of the DAC is then passed through analog signal conditioning circuitry before being input to a distortion analyzer.


 
 I guess this upsampling to 768kHz and the R2R design is why this chip sounds so good.  I hope we can agree on that.
  
 PS Too bad TI is not making them any longer.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/89376-best-sound-dac-pcm1702-1704-stop-production-2.html


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> @rb2013 Here's some Red porn for your viewing pleasure!


 

 OH OH oh....thanks!
  
 Well nice looking PS - is that a choke filter?  I see two regulators.  Clock on the Spartan board looks like a AKER V series VCXO 49.165mHz
  
 http://www.aker-usa.com/clock-oscillators.html


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Even if it does not beat your Uber USB set-up but is only on par with it,
> Will you not want to go with just a single box solution instead of a mile-long USB chain?


 

 Hell yeah!  And maybe there are some effective tweeks that might improve the SQ


----------



## neogeosnk

Can someone link the drivers to first page? Or where can I find the latest drivers? Just got mine today.


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Okay, I'll try again, but I will try to make it simpler, and I'll give it to you from the perspective of the "audiophile manufacturer." Since you again got up in arms at me in your other thread, I realized you think I am just being a naysayer to change, when in fact I have been studying and trying to find ways to offer Ethernet DAC solutions since 2005--way before most of the proprietary pro-sound/broadcast solutions even arrived.
> (In 2007, at Hovland Company we presented at CES an ahead of its time CD reader/DAC/music server with 4" color screen, Ethernet, USB, S/PDIF, and credit card sized Linux CompuLab module. I'm on my iPad or I'd post some links and pics. The product remained in pre-production state while we worked on a higher priority piece--until we closed our doors in 2009.)
> 
> So let's say I am a DAC or DDC maker in the audiophile space today, and I'd like to offer a product with Ethernet input based on AES67/Ravenna. What components and resources are presently available for me to do so?
> ...


 

 Hey thanks for taking the time to explain this - sincerely.  You obviously have way more knowledge and experience in these matters.
  
 But just think out of the box for a second - what if XMOS programmed a chip and offered it as a solution?  Like they did for USB - what was available before XMOS - Amanero?  Then before that Musiland and before that M2Tech. 
  
 Now I'm not saying this is easy to do - but it is most likely as difficult as programing USB.
  
 As for the DVS player - just buy $29 license from Audiante - or the user can.  DVS problem solved.  It can obviously do 192k - and with a SPDIF (ala F-1) output all that is really needed.
  
 Now there is Focusrite for Dante and all these Raveena partners - somebody has to see the potential market here.
  
 Take Focusrite - they could offer a non-studio/pro version of the REDNET3 for 2 channel only stereo.  No Word clk in and out.  If the REDNET 3 is now $1000 - how about for $500?  DC powered - without the amour clad studio required durability and stability.  Got to be doable.
 They already offer the Scarlett 18i8 for $349.
 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Scarlett18i8
  
 Now when the REDNET 3 came out in 2013 it was $1500 - now available for $1000, I bought mine as a demo unit for $800 - so the prices are already dropping.
  
 So say a RD3 for $800 - sounds expensive - but not really.  A decent USB (in box like the SU-1) is $350, now add a industrial Intona for $340, and a decent USB cable like the 2g another $200 - Your now above the REDNET 3 - how about adding a Regen or a Recovery (another $180-$199 and they need their own LPS another $150 at least) - maybe a iPur2($99) or the ICRON GB LAN Iso USB extender instead of the Intona - $100 more.  Your already are now way more expensive then the REDNET 3 - that you can buy today - delivery by Friday.
  
 I think we are there right now - of course all this predicated on the SQ of the RD3 - will know that in a few days.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

My wallet is trembling from Muziqboy's findings and is even more concerned for that delivery and findings. Alice In Wonderland doesn't even compare to audio rabbit holes.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> My wallet is trembling from Muziqboy's findings and is even more concerned for that delivery and findings. Alice In Wonderland doesn't even compare to audio rabbit holes.


 

 And stay away from that hookah smoking caterpillar!  That s**t is really expensive (love living in Seattle!)


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Hell yeah!  And maybe there are some effective tweeks that might improve the SQ


 
  
 Like better Master Clocks!


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Like better Master Clocks!


 

 Well thinking maybe a $40 INtel NIC card - those clocks are spendy.  But really what else - other then a good power cord (have the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme) and AC line filtering and balancing.  Can't really think of anything.  Unless one of these uber CAT6 cables from AQ or JCAT really make a difference - which I doubt.


----------



## Muziqboy

I have these http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/adapters/digital/
 for both the source end & destination end of my Audio Sensibility Statement SE Digital Interconnect cable which I am using to connect the RedNet 3 to my DAC and noticed an improvement.
 I was also using this on the Startech / F-1 chain.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> So they replaced the DF1704?  I live and I learn - this old 1704 dog can learn new tricks.  Well I do know that my DAC60 is limited to 96k as it uses the DF1704 - and my original point was the the W4S Remedy was a good sounding match.
> 
> BTW this is not fiction - but fact as taken directly from the PCM1704 TI datasheet specs:
> http://datasheet.octopart.com/PCM1704U-Texas-Instruments-datasheet-5356068.pdf
> ...




The DF1704 filter chip was never replaced. But the best designs with the PCM1704 DAC chip avoided using it.

The reason why it was not billed in the spec sheet as a higher than 96KHz DAC was because when it was released, there were no interfaces or transports that went higher. This was way before USB2.0 audio! It's not as if the benefits of oversampling were not known--that's why the DF1704 was made, and it actually was a decent unit at the time, just resource-constrained like even FPGA-based filters of today.

By the way, the PCM1704 is still in production! About once every 18 months they fire up the old equipment required to make it and they run a bunch. It is not an easy chip to make, and the demand is not high, so they don't run Aton of them and they keep the price high.:mad:


----------



## FredA

Pcm1704 beats Sabre 9018, wm8741 and ad1851, as far as my ears can tell, i have owned the 3.

Still available in 3 different audio-gd dacs! The nos7 and master-7 use 8 each. Most analog sound i have heard.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> OH OH oh....thanks!
> 
> Well nice looking PS - is that a choke filter?  I see two regulators.  Clock on the Spartan board looks like a AKER V series VCXO 49.165mHz
> 
> http://www.aker-usa.com/clock-oscillators.html


 

 Sorry Rob, that's not a choke, it's a small transformer.  That's a switching PS! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also, very strange that they are using the original Dante Brooklyn module--introduced in 2009--rather than the Brooklyn II which was introduced in 2011.  Maybe Audinate gave Focusrite a really good price on a boatload of 'em.   Current OEM price on Brooklyn II modules would drive the price of the Rednet boxes up quite a bit.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Hey thanks for taking the time to explain this - sincerely.  You obviously have way more knowledge and experience in these matters.
> 
> But just think out of the box for a second - what if XMOS programmed a chip and offered it as a solution?  Like they did for USB - what was available before XMOS - Amanero?  Then before that Musiland and before that M2Tech.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Yes, you would think that in the 7+ years that the Brooklyn and similar AVB modules have been available that some enterprising DAC or DDC maker in the audiophile space would have jumped in. But as I've said, the puzzle pieces have not really been there, and the cost are very high.  That's why, to-date, DLNA/UPnP has dominated in the home audio over Ethernet arena.
  
 While I'll avoid discussing USB processors and protocol engines here--and who came first and did/does what--since you mention XMOS I'll share something with you:  XMOS processor chips have full Ethernet capability, but not a lot of firms use them for that.  In fact, with there larger series versions, you can run both USB and Ethernet stacks--one in each tile.
 Such was at the heart of the USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge OEM Solution that Swenson and I were working on, but which is on the back burner for various private reasons (we have larger things in mind).  Read here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/uptone-swenson-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-ethernet-audio-bridge-22849/#post381785
  
 Perhaps to better understand it I'll draw your attention to the ICRON USB>Ethernet>USB boxes that you were recently excited about.  Their USB Extreme IP (as in intellectual property) is similar on the local side (that attaches to your computer), in that in a way (though different from our attempt) they take the USB protocol, interrupt it, turn it into an Ethernet layer stream, and send it out to find one of their receivers on the network.  The key difference in our planned solution is that we had little interest in turning it back into USB at that other end.  Rather we had a clever, low power, almost processor-free (just another, smaller XMOS chip) module at the other end which was galvanically isolated, and which could accept a DAC's master clock and output a very clean I2S for the DAC (hence the "OEM solution" part of its mouthful of a name).
  
 --------
  
 Lastly, please think about what it is you are desiring to accomplish with Ethernet-attached DACs and DDCs.  At present, the only real advantages they have over USB are convenience (put the computer elsewhere) and galvanic isolation.  And the latter can be accomplished in other ways.  Yes, there are arguments about which packet-data protocol has better error correction (USB has none), but on the other side there is a lot more noise and radiation, and cost with a big Brooklyn-type Ethernet module, and the transparency of the virtual sound card software is not a given.
  
 Ciao,
 --Alex C.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> I have these http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/adapters/digital/
> for both the source end & destination end of my Audio Sensibility Statement SE Digital Interconnect cable which I am using to connect the RedNet 3 to my DAC and noticed an improvement.
> I was also using this on the Startech / F-1 chain.


 

 I read about those  - interesting.  $189 not cheap though


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> The DF1704 filter chip was never replaced. But the best designs with the PCM1704 DAC chip avoided using it.
> 
> The reason why it was not billed in the spec sheet as a higher than 96KHz DAC was because when it was released, there were no interfaces or transports that went higher. This was way before USB2.0 audio! It's not as if the benefits of oversampling were not known--that's why the DF1704 was made, and it actually was a decent unit at the time, just resource-constrained like even FPGA-based filters of today.
> 
> By the way, the PCM1704 is still in production! About once every 18 months they fire up the old equipment required to make it and they run a bunch. It is not an easy chip to make, and the demand is not high, so they don't run Aton of them and they keep the price high.


 

 Well I do remember the upsampling vs NOS battles - Zanden chose the TDA1541 double crown - as it needed no brickwall filtering, but was limited to 16 bit 44k.
  
 Dick Olsher 's review of the sweet Monarchy Audio NM24 in 'Absolute Sound':
  
 http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/monarchy-audio-nm24-dac-preamplifier/
  


> The NM24 uses the Burr-Brown (Texas Instruments) PCM1704 24-bit/96kHz DAC, the undisputed king of all R2R DACs. The PCM1704 employs a sign-magnitude architecture in which two DACs are combined in a complementary arrangement, sharing a common reference and a common R2R ladder for bit current sources. Ladder resistors are laser trimmed at the factory to achieve an accurate match between the two DACs. The result is exceptionally linear and low-harmonic-distortion output. Sadly, Texas Instruments has put the PCM1704 on end-of-life status probably due to cost of manufacture and dwindling demand, so I would not be surprised to see it discontinued by the end of 2015.


 


> The Monarchy NM24 teaches us three important lessons about digital-to-analog converter design. First, there’s still plenty of audio magic left in Burr-Brown’s 24-bit/96kHz PCM1704 chip. Second, a tube buffer is sonically superior to an op-amp-based buffer, as can easily be ascertained by auditioning both built-in buffers. Third, it is much easier (i.e., less costly) to design a good-sounding DAC using an R2R chip than it is to deploy the currently ubiquitous delta-sigma type. Its sound character is exceedingly analog-like, as the NM24 sidesteps the halo of brightness that permeates the harmonic textures of so many delta-sigma-based DACs. You’ll have to look in the neighborhood of $5k in order to exceed its performance.


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Sorry Rob, that's not a choke, it's a small transformer.  That's a switching PS!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Just like the famed and well regarded Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB.  Now here is a place we can hot wire the power supply - like some have done with the Mutec - with a LPS.
 Nice! 
  

  

  
  
 I guess the Brooklyn II is in the REDNET D16?


----------



## culain99

the price of SINGXER F-1 XMOS on aliexpress is *US $**179.99* , is this normal or on the high side ?


----------



## rb2013

culain99 said:


> the price of SINGXER F-1 XMOS on aliexpress is *US $**179.99* , is this normal or on the high side ?


 

 Normal


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Take Focusrite - they could offer a non-studio/pro version of the REDNET3 for 2 channel only stereo.  No Word clk in and out.  If the REDNET 3 is now $1000 - how about for $500?  DC powered - without the amour clad studio required durability and stability.  Got to be doable.


 
  
 Makes complete sense to me, particularly with DC in and maybe a posh clock, the user can then spec their own LPS, why not ping them an email, it might get them thinking? Once one company moves in and the glowing reviews begin, the bandwagon will no doubt start rolling and the best SQ/price will win out.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> ccschua said:
> 
> 
> > It looks like RD3 is at the dawn of revolution to digital audio. I wonder what software application will be implicated down the chain.
> ...


 
  
  
 Funny, *Eelco Grimm* was the engineer who measured my own developed dac at the beginning of the nineties, sadly it did cost about 500 bucks which was a lot of money in that time,,,
 Good thing was, he measured a digital resolution of 17.8 bits, which is not bad at all using a 18 bit dac (CS4328)


----------



## mourip

rw35 said:


> Makes complete sense to me, particularly with DC in and maybe a posh clock, the user can then spec their own LPS, why not ping them an email, it might get them thinking? Once one company moves in and the glowing reviews begin, the bandwagon will no doubt start rolling and the best SQ/price will win out.


 
  
 I actually did this exact thing late last week. I emailed them proposing a scaled down version for two channel stereo users and pointed them to CA and HF for proof that interest was there. I even suggested the option for using an external LPS.
  
 We should get a "write-in" campaign going.
  
 Perhaps the lure of revenue will overcome the standard contempt of Pro folks for Audiophools


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Makes complete sense to me, particularly with DC in and maybe a posh clock, the user can then spec their own LPS, why not ping them an email, it might get them thinking? Once one company moves in and the glowing reviews begin, the bandwagon will no doubt start rolling and the best SQ/price will win out.


 

 I will and I think Mike did as well.  But I do see Alex's point about Audiante selling the Brooklyn DANTE module to focusrite.  I think were are just lucky that Audinate had these previous version Brooklyn boards to sell at a low price.  Then Brooklyn II is of course more expensive.  From what I can tell is offers little for audiophiles as an upgrade.
  
 Handles 176k - is about is.  It has lower latency - but so what the BK1 was low enough:
 https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-brooklyn-ii


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Funny, *Eelco Grimm* was the engineer who measured my own developed dac at the beginning of the nineties, sadly it did cost about 500 bucks which was a lot of money in that time,,,
> Good thing was, he measured a digital resolution of 17.8 bits, which is not bad at all using a 18 bit dac (CS4328)


 

 Nice!


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> I actually did this exact thing late last week. I emailed them proposing a scaled down version for two channel stereo users and pointed them to CA and HF for proof that interest was there. I even suggested the option for using an external LPS.
> 
> We should get a "write-in" campaign going.
> 
> Perhaps the lure of revenue will overcome the standard contempt of Pro folks for Audiophools


 

 Our money is as green as theirs!
  
 Nice - and Audinate too.  A message should go to them.  It looks like they sell to Yamaha as well - which of course has a consumer audio division.
  
 Audinate needs to develop a lower cost DANTE card.


----------



## rb2013

There were a few of these REDNET 3 boxes selling used - and not going anywhere.  One on Ebay and one on Gearsluz - once we started posting about them - they few.
  
 So I think we have awoken a new market for AOIP gear - from a very unintended source.
  
 To Alex's second point on Ravenna - look at the partner companies - don't see any audiophile ones.   Mostly professional broadcast & studio equipment makers.
 So it looks like we are going to have to really prod them into action.
  
 Now the first to market will score big - IF - the SQ is as good as hoped.
  
 Two more days until the Big Red Box touches down here...


----------



## rb2013

Interesting history on Audiante - based in Australia their US offices are in Portland, OR.  May have to pay them a visit.  Founded in 2006.
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_(networking)


> *Dante* (Digital Audio Network Through Ethernet) is a combination of software, hardware, and network protocols that deliver uncompressed, multi-channel, low-latency digital audio over a standard Ethernet network using Layer 3 IP packets.[5] Developed in 2006 by a Sydney-based company named Audinate, Dante builds and improves on previous audio over Ethernettechnologies, such as CobraNet and EtherSound.


 


> Dante provides several advantages over traditional analog audio distribution.* Audio transmitted over **analog cables can be adversely affected by signal degradation due to electromagnetic interference, high-frequency attenuation, and voltage drop over long cable runs. Thanks to digitalmultiplexing**, the cabling requirements for digital audio distribution are almost always reduced when compared to analog audio. *Dante also provides specific advantages over first-generation audio over Ethernet technologies, such as CobraNet and EtherSound. Technological advancements include native gigabit support,[6] higher channel count, lower latency, and automatic configuration.


 


> Since its founding, Audinate has licensed about 150 companies[13] to integrate Dante technology into their products. Notable licensees includeAllen & Heath, Ashly Audio, Behringer, Bosch, Bose, BSS Audio, DiGiCo, Dolby, Electro-Voice, Focusrite, JoeCo, Lab.gruppen, Lectrosonics,Mackie, Peavey, Shure, Soundcraft, Millennia, Solid State Logic, Symetrix, Telex, Whirlwind, Presonus, and Yamaha.[14]


 
 Dante Brooklyn II: It looks like the other major change from Brooklyn I - is future AVB support.  Nothing for us - but important in the broadcast video/audio arena.
 http://www.av-iq.com/avcat/images/documents/dataSheet/Dante%20Brooklyn%20II_Datasheet.pdf
 http://www.lsionline.co.uk/news/story/Audinate-debuts-Dante-Brooklyn-II/D9B568
  
 AND Folks this could be the GAME CHANGER!
  
 DANTE ULTIMO - Integrated chip!!!!
 http://www.lsionline.co.uk/news/story/Audinate-launches-Dante-Ultimo/-4CNC4M



> *USA* - Audinate has announced the newest member of the Dante product family: Ultimo. *Ultimo is a complete, fully-featured, ready-to-use Dante interface for networked audio products, integrated into a single 13 x 13mm chip. By providing an integrated, cost-effective networked audio solution over a 100Mbps Ethernet interface, Ultimo extends the benefits of Dante networking to a wide new range of audio devices.*​
> As with Audinate's other networked products,* Ultimo uses high-quality, low-jitter clocks with ±1µs time alignment between networked devices. Ultimo does not require specialised switches, and works with existing network infrastructure.*​
> Ultimo includes well-established Dante features like automatic device discovery, plug-and-play networking, network-based firmware updates, and customization of device names and channel labels.​
> ​
> ...


 
 Will this be the XMOS equivalent for AES67 AOIP?


----------



## rw35

mourip said:


> I actually did this exact thing late last week. I emailed them proposing a scaled down version for two channel stereo users and pointed them to CA and HF for proof that interest was there. I even suggested the option for using an external LPS.
> 
> We should get a "write-in" campaign going.
> 
> Perhaps the lure of revenue will overcome the standard contempt of Pro folks for Audiophools


 
  
 Cool, good job.
  
 (I did similar with Singxer re them making a DC version of the SU-1, which I would need until/if Aurender adopt AOIP)


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Just an update on the RedNet 3!
> 
> So I got it this morning and hooked it up to the NUC computer via the supplied CAT6 cable. It was not easy trying to get it configured but after about a couple of hours fuzzing around with it, i finally got it to communicate with the PC. I had to map Channels 1 & 2 from the NUC to the RN3 and finally I got music playing on the Headphones.
> 
> ...


 

 How's the REDNET 3 sounding now - with some run time?  Much of a change?
  
 I'm dreaming RED these last few nights -


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Cool, good job.
> 
> (I did similar with Singxer re them making a DC version of the SU-1, which I would need until/if Aurender adopt AOIP)


 

 Thinking of heading down to Audinate in Portland and speaking with them on the Ultimo DANTE chip - get a sample and send to Singxer to build our F-1 ASE67 device.
  
 Take the XMOS out and redesign around the Ultimo - replace the USB with a RJ45 - add a DC power port.
  
 How does that sound?


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Thinking of heading down to Audinate in Portland and speaking with them on the Ultimo DANTE chip - get a sample and send to Singxer to build our F-1 ASE67 device.
> 
> Take the XMOS out and redesign around the Ultimo - replace the USB with a RJ45 - add a DC power port.
> 
> How does that sound?


 
 Great, ask them to replace the 100Mb/s by 1Gb/s on the Ultimo chip, and I'm your man.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Great, ask them to replace the 100Mb/s by 1Gb/s on the Ultimo chip, and I'm your man.


 

 That would be better - but for me if 100Mb/s gets the two channel job done I'n fine with that.  In fact how many of us would even have any LAN switch in between?  Do we need GB for direct 2 channel hi res audio?
  
 Just want to ditch USB!
  
 But I'm sure an Ultimo II is in the works AVB complaint.


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> Thinking of heading down to Audinate in Portland and speaking with them on the Ultimo DANTE chip - get a sample and send to Singxer to build our F-1 ASE67 device.
> 
> Take the XMOS out and redesign around the Ultimo - replace the USB with a RJ45 - add a DC power port.
> 
> How does that sound?


 
  
 Sounds potentialy like the future.
  
 ps is any of this of interest? http://studio-tech.com/summary_dante.html
  
 (I haven't looked in detail, just stumbled across it)
  
 edit: I just looked, can't see any that have digital out, but at least more devices seem to be appearing.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> That would be better - but for me if 100Mb/s gets the two channel job done I'n fine with that.  In fact how many of us would even have any LAN switch in between?  Do we need GB for direct 2 channel hi res audio?
> 
> Just want to ditch USB!
> 
> But I'm sure an Ultimo II is in the works AVB complaint.


 
 Well OK than, I wouldn't be running it over a switch but I would need to buy an additional Ethernet-card for the second ethernet port (the first one would be connected to the switch and the rest of the network).
  
 But ask them to consider true and proper KS-drivers. I appreciate them more than ASIO.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> @rb
> If you could be so kind and compare these simplified setups:
> PC->regular USB port(no PPA)>split usb cable(LH or Forza) with Teradak DC30W and DC iPurifier>F1
> vs.
> PC->regular USB port(no PPA)>split usb cable(LH or Forza) with possibly Teradak DC30W and DC iPurifier (I don't know if Mutec needs 5v) >Mutec


 

 I had a chance to compare these last night -
  
 Well honestly the PPA makes a very small difference (now when using it to route clean +5VDC LPS power to the LEX - of the Startech another story - and of course that could be accomplished with a split USB cable directly to a TeraDak X1).
  
 Yes the Mutec needs to 'see' 5VDC on the usb  - but runs on AC.  It was a nice upgrade over the F-1 (no need for the TeraDAK or DC iPur).  In this case using both power and data legs of the 2G into the PC USB ports.  (I know this is not recommended or optimal - but it was what was requested).
  
 But still far from the uber chain with the F-1.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Well OK than, I wouldn't be running it over a switch but I would need to buy an additional Ethernet-card for the second ethernet port (the first one would be connected to the switch and the rest of the network).
> 
> But ask them to consider true and proper KS-drivers. I appreciate them more than ASIO.


 

 Well KS is not going to happen - the DANTE s/w just tricks the player software/PC into thinking it's a USB like ASIO. 
  
 All ASIO means is 'Audio Stream Input Output'  - now the Theyscon XMOS ASIO's are all a bit different.  As were the Hi-Face and Amerno.
  
 Interesting my JPlay 6.2 uses KS then presents as ASIO to the player - which is it?
  
 With these AOIP - it's such a seachange - we have to force our USB thinking to change.  The same rules don't apply.
  
 I better support this - before Alex 'corrects' me with some weird hybrid modification of the std done in some dank audio engineer's basement and then sold on line...just kidding bro' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output


> *Audio Stream Input/Output* (*ASIO*) is a computer sound card driver protocol for digital audio specified bySteinberg, providing a low-latency and high fidelity interface between a software application and a computer'ssound card. Whereas Microsoft's DirectSound is commonly used as an intermediary signal path for non-professional users, ASIO allows musicians and sound engineers to access external hardware directly.


----------



## neogeosnk

neogeosnk said:


> Can someone link the drivers to first page? Or where can I find the latest drivers? Just got mine today.


 
 Here's the link that's embedded in the thread: http://www.mediafire.com/download/jma92ool3p16q3p/Singxer-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver_v3.20.0.exe


----------



## rb2013

But jabbr - your wish for DANTE Ultimo GB compatiblity - has already come true:
  
 https://www.audinate.com/about/news-activity/press/audinate-announces-new-capabilities-dante-ultimo-chipsets
  


> Audinate Announces New Capabilities for Dante Ultimo Chipsets:
> 
> Audinate, the market leader in digital media networking for the A/V, conferencing, public address, and broadcast industries, today announced new enhancements to the Dante Ultimo low-channel chipsets, *now shipping*.
> *The new revision of Dante Ultimo incorporates* support for Marvell 88E6320 *gigabit switch*, enabling robust daisy chaining of Dante devices with multicast filtering capability.
> Audinate has also released new Ultimo 2.1 firmware, adding several new features for Audio Video (AV) equipment manufacturers building low channel-count products with Dante Ultimo. The new Release 2.1 firmware adds device control capabilities enabled by the Dante Device Protocol (DDP). DDP allows Ultimo messages and commands to be sent via SPI/UART from the host processor, accessing parameters such as channel subscriptions, clock status and more. DDP is ideal for integration of routing pre-sets and front panel displays in Ultimo products. *Additionally, Ultimo now supports 16-, 24- and 32-bit PCM audio, selected globally or per-channel as needed.*


----------



## rb2013

https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/files/datasheets/Dante_Ultimo_23-dec-2014.pdf
  


> ULT-01-002 provides a Dante interface for networked audio products requiring up to 2x2 channels at 44.1 kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz and 96kHz sample rates


 
 Looks like they'll need another revision to add 192k support.
  
 That's what I would ask them for...


----------



## rw35

This alternative looks interesting: http://www.openaoip.com/, https://www.telosalliance.com/Axia/#Networking
  
 ?


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Sounds potentialy like the future.
> 
> ps is any of this of interest? http://studio-tech.com/summary_dante.html
> 
> ...


 

 Right - No a SPDIF coax or AES digital output.


----------



## rb2013

Damn folks we are getting so close!
  
 http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=61110.0
  


> Hey, i'm long time DIY'er from Lithuania.
> after release of Audinate Brooklyn cards, it's getting quite easy to implement DANTE interface in any audio project (for a half hundred dollars /pcs.) I think it's a future, and USB/Firewire/Thunderbolt interfaces will be obsolete in the future. Meanwhile, network based audio getting more and more popular in Live and Broadcast business.


 
 So it looks like the Brooklyn II DANTE card is $50 - in quantity.


----------



## rb2013

neogeosnk said:


> Here's the link that's embedded in the thread: http://www.mediafire.com/download/jma92ool3p16q3p/Singxer-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver_v3.20.0.exe


 

 Sorry  - and in English thanks!


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> ...
> 
> Interesting my JPlay 6.2 uses KS then presents as ASIO to the player - which is it?
> 
> ...




JPlay Engine uses KS to communicate with the sound device. The use of ASIO to communicate with the JPlay engine was 'forced upon them' by the harrasment campaign by JRiver.


----------



## rb2013

Oh dang - I just found this including a DANTE Brooklyn II SPDIF function:
  
www.eecs.ucf.edu/.../SD13_Critical_Design_Review.ppt​  
 They estimate the DANTE Brooklyn II card at $125 each  and the use of a TI DIX9211 (these are $9 to $4 in quanity) to mate the Brooklyn II to do SPDIF out.
  
 That does not seem like unreasonable costs - for the full BK II DANTE implementation.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> JPlay Engine uses KS to communicate with the sound device. The use of ASIO to communicate with the JPlay engine was 'forced upon them' by the harrasment campaign by JRiver.


 

 interesting - still seems to work (improve SQ somewhat)
  
 Wonder if it works with DANTE DVS ASIO - so much to explore.
  
 Blazing new trails here folks


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> But jabbr - your wish for DANTE Ultimo GB compatiblity - has already come true:
> 
> https://www.audinate.com/about/news-activity/press/audinate-announces-new-capabilities-dante-ultimo-chipsets




Thank you for making it happen so quickly.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Thank you for making it happen so quickly.


 

 De Nada


----------



## rb2013

Or just hot wire your DAC with one of these $250 DANTE Brooklyn II boxes:
  
 Betcha it has a i2s out to hookup to the ADC - what if it has a SPDIF hookup!
  
 Eureka!
 I may just order one after Thursday if the RD3 SQ is supurb.
  
 http://www.frontendaudio.com/Burl-Audio-Dante-Brooklyn-II-Card-for-B2-ADC-p/9999-16327.htm
  


> *Burl Audio Optional Brooklyn II Card for Dante Compatibility for B2-Bomber-ADC*
> 
> *The future is now.* Now you have a universal digital audio link that works with every computer and every audio device. You can access any ADC or DAC from any workstation in your studio. That is, if they have Dante.
> Finally a high speed, high channel-count, low latency, long run length, digital link that is networkable. Until now digital audio routing was limited by point-to-point digital links that were either proprietary or based on standards that were written over 25 years ago and use old technology with limited run lengths.
> ...


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Damn folks we are getting so close!
> 
> http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=61110.0
> 
> So it looks like the Brooklyn II DANTE card is $50 - in quantity.




Your quote doesn't mentione Brookly II, could still be a I.
I see the Brooklyn II being retailed for $250 or £297


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Your quote doesn't mentione Brookly II, could still be a I.
> I see the Brooklyn II being retailed for $250 or £297


 

 Yes that is likely - wonder if they sell the BK1 still?
  
 Wholesale the BK2 has to be cheaper - BURL is selling a BK2 add on board for their DAC and ADC for $250 retail.
  
 $125 is likely close in small quantities.
  
 I bet you could build our AES67 DANTE Brooklyn II SPDIF device for under $200. Retail it for $400 - it would be a blow out success.
  
 Of course there will be those who would critize it because it doesn't do 784kPCM or 256DSD...Ugg!


----------



## rb2013

I may call BURL and ask them to do a DANTE BKII SPDIF box - they are small enough to possibly listen.  They already have it implemented in their B2 Bomber DAC:
  
 http://burlaudio.com/products/b2-bomber-dac
  




 What's weird I don't see the DANTE Brooklyn II card?   Is it under the BURL board?
  
 Should  look like this:


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> I may call BURL and ask them to do a DANTE BKII SPDIF box - they are small enough to possibly listen.  They already have it implemented in their B2 Bomber DAC:
> 
> http://burlaudio.com/products/b2-bomber-dac


 
  
 Cool. From the picture it looks like they use an SMPS power supply. Ask for a wall wort so we can replace it


----------



## rb2013

This is the card we want the other was for his ADC.
  
 Now it looks like he made the B2 Bomber DAC without the BK2 DANTE interface - but now offers it built in.
  
 But the good news he offers it as a add on:
 http://www.odysseyprosound.com/accessories/burl-dante-brooklyn-ii-card-for-b2-dac/
  
 So he must have added the slot to plug it into - then links it to his DAC board.  Has got to be Maybe i2s.
  
 Or the DANTE card input slot right on the board - most likely.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Cool. From the picture it looks like they use an SMPS power supply. Ask for a wall wort so we can replace it


 
  
 Well not so interested in this $2500 DAC (I'm partial to tubed DACs, esp 6922 tubes).
  
 I understand it does sound very analog with discrete opamps and class A operation - word clock input - nice.
  
 But I'm curious as to how he connects the BK2 DANTE card to the DAC board - looking for a picture of the new version.
  
 He sells the BK2 card for $250 retail.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Well KS is not going to happen - the DANTE s/w just tricks the player software/PC into thinking it's a USB like ASIO.
> 
> All ASIO means is 'Audio Stream Input Output'  - now the Theyscon XMOS ASIO's are all a bit different.  As were the Hi-Face and Amerno.
> 
> ...


 
 I wonder if you had tried dual PC or the USB stick approach of the "hibernate" mode. its another step up in sound.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I wonder if you had tried dual PC or the USB stick approach of the "hibernate" mode. its another step up in sound.


 

 No - not interested as I have said before - no computer gymnastics.  No R2012


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> I had a chance to compare these last night -
> 
> Well honestly the PPA makes a very small difference (now when using it to route clean +5VDC LPS power to the LEX - of the Startech another story - and of course that could be accomplished with a split USB cable directly to a TeraDak X1).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you Rob for the effort. I know it's not easy to downgrade the audio chain 
  
 But to be clear. In these setups the Mutec (alone) was better than F1 powered from Teradak DC30W?
 And using PPA in both cases makes small change?


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> I may call BURL and ask them to do a DANTE BKII SPDIF box - they are small enough to possibly listen.  They already have it implemented in their B2 Bomber DAC:
> 
> http://burlaudio.com/products/b2-bomber-dac
> 
> ...


 
  
 For me the "naked" one looks like different version without Ethernet socket


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> For me the "naked" one looks like different version without Ethernet socket


 

 Yes - and the second naked one is not the BURL but another device.  I just posted it to show what is missing in the B2 photo.
  
 I'm going to call BURL tomorrow and pick his brain - see what I get for $250 if I buy his Brooklyn 2 card.
  
 Maybe he has a simple solution to hook it up for 2 channel spdif or AES.   Or could rig one up with out having to go through his DAC board.  That would be ideal.
  
 http://www.lunchboxaudio.com/burl-audio-dante-brooklyn-ii-card-for-b2-bomber-bmb3-80-mothership/


----------



## sbgk

rb2013 said:


> Well KS is not going to happen - the DANTE s/w just tricks the player software/PC into thinking it's a USB like ASIO.
> 
> All ASIO means is 'Audio Stream Input Output'  - now the Theyscon XMOS ASIO's are all a bit different.  As were the Hi-Face and Amerno.
> 
> ...


 
 think jplay uses a virtual ks wavert device to access low level memory for it's engines, then outputs via ASIO


----------



## Sanlitun

My F1 arrived yesterday and I have had a brief time to give it a listen. Running it with a iFi Gemini cable split off to a separate power supply.
  
 The board is very impressive considering its $200 cost. You could easily spend $2000 somewhere else and not get these results. 
  
 It's quite radical really, one of the biggest evolutionary changes for me since perhaps hearing a Bakoon amp for the first time. 
  
 I'm quite happy as I had figured it would be only a minor gain over the Audiophilleo.


----------



## seeteeyou

rb2013 said:


> Thinking of heading down to Audinate in Portland and speaking with them on the Ultimo DANTE chip - get a sample and send to Singxer to build our F-1 ASE67 device.
> 
> Take the XMOS out and redesign around the Ultimo - replace the USB with a RJ45 - add a DC power port.
> 
> How does that sound?


 
  
 It kinda put me off after reading stuff like this below
  
Any interested LAN Audio Interface based on Dante network?
  
 Anyways please kindly give that a shot and let us know how it goes.
  
  
 If that weren't getting very far, we could still opt for something more opened / less proprietary such as XMOS Ethernet AVB since it's already part of the xCORE family.
  
 And you did post something about XK-AUDIO-216-MC-AB here
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/195#post_12495770
  
 Pretty good deal for 300 bucks, just send this one to Singxer if they're interested in expanding their offerings?
  
 http://www.xmos.com/products/networked-audio/solutions
 https://octopart.com/xk-audio-216-mc-ab-xmos-59209066
 http://www.xmos.com/support/boards?product=18334
 http://www.xmos.com/buy?product=18334
  
 https://www.xcore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3511
 https://www.xmos.com/download/private/AVB-Audio-Endpoint-Product-Brief(1.5).pdf
 https://www.xmos.com/download/private/AVB-Daisy-Chain-Design-Guide(1.0.6rc0.b).pdf
  
  
 XK-AVB-LC-SYS
 http://datasheet.octopart.com/XK-AVB-LC-SYS-XMOS-datasheet-17545207.pdf
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/xmos/XK-AVB-LC-SYS/880-1033-ND/2472196
 http://www.newark.com/xmos/xk-avb-lc-sys/reference-design-kit-audio-video/dp/07X2000
  
  
 Ethernet AVB/TSN Library
 http://www.xmos.com/support/software/tsn
  
 GitHub - AVnu/Open-AVB: Open AVB - an AVnu sponsored repository for Audio/Video Bridging technology
 https://github.com/AVnu/Open-AVB
  
 Certified Products | AVnu Alliance
 http://avnu.org/certified-products/
  
 AVnu: Open source software for AVB/TSN
 https://standards.ieee.org/events/automotive/2015/09_AVnu_Open_Source_Software_for_AVB-TSN.pdf
  
 Some folks from Marlborough, MA might know more about the implementation
  
 http://www.sonilan.com
  
  
 What's the difference between AES50, AVB, Dante, etc?
 https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/3rn96z


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> jabbr said:
> 
> 
> > Great, ask them to replace the 100Mb/s by 1Gb/s on the Ultimo chip, and I'm your man.
> ...


 
  
  
 NOW you're talking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Glad you went this route!


----------



## FredA

Hi guys. Hi Robert.

I was wondering about a proper enclosure for the f-1 (ideally the "slide in" type). I don't want to re-read this huge thread. Thanks in advance.


----------



## rw35

^^ Borderline perfect fit : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152062512677


----------



## abartels

Want a NICE enclosure? Thick Alu frontpanel? Silver or Black?
  
 Try this:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/Consumer-Electronics/293/i.html?_from=R40&rmvSB=true&_nkw=b0905


----------



## jabbr

rw35 said:


> ^^ Borderline perfect fit : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152062512677


 
 Got the same one. Perfect fit.
 Needs to file a tiny bit of extra space in the upper iinside to accomodate the top curve of the SPDIF.
 Would not have been necessary if the case didn't have that 'dip' in the top.


----------



## rw35

jabbr said:


> Got the same one. Perfect fit.
> Needs to file a tiny bit of extra space in the upper iinside to accomodate the top curve of the SPDIF.
> Would not have been necessary if the case didn't have that 'dip' in the top.


 

 I didn't need to shave anything off, just used small amount of force to push it in whilst gently lifting the top = a nice firm hold.


----------



## rb2013

sanlitun said:


> My F1 arrived yesterday and I have had a brief time to give it a listen. Running it with a iFi Gemini cable split off to a separate power supply.
> 
> The board is very impressive considering its $200 cost. You could easily spend $2000 somewhere else and not get these results.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!  Agree it is very, very good.  Add a ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso - for galvanic isolation. Takes it a new level.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> It kinda put me off after reading stuff like this below
> 
> Any interested LAN Audio Interface based on Dante network?
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for all the great info - esp the XMOS AVB ethernet stuff.  Wow they are close as well.
  
 This is really getting interesting.  If XMOS does a Ravenna or Dante AES67 implementation - watch out!
  
 AVB is layer 2 and need special swtiches in the LAN.  Dante, Revenna and Livewire (not much said here about them) - AES67 layer3.  and in most cases of normal use non-Qos switches will work (1 GB LAN).
  
 From your link:


> AVB is a "layer 2" protocol and can only be switched within a local network, while Dante is a "Layer 3" protocol and can be routed through an IP network. You can interface with a Dante network using the ethernet port in your computer. AVB requires an external interface.


 
 Now for me the LAN part is as interesting as SQ and getting away from USB and it's electric issues and packet design(what all these USB gizmo's try to address).  So a ethernet AVB solution would be fine with me!
  
 Now the issue with the XMOS XK-AUDIO-216-MC-AB - is 96k limit - multi channel as it's main purpose.  No SPDIF out.  High cost $300.
  
 We are getting close - all we need is XMOS to make a 2 channel higher res AVB or preferably AES67 ethernet to spdif/i2s interface chip or card.
 preferably just the chip - then let talented designers like Singxer go to work on the implementation.
  
 We are all most there folks!


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Hi guys. Hi Robert.
> 
> I was wondering about a proper enclosure for the f-1 (ideally the "slide in" type). I don't want to re-read this huge thread. Thanks in advance.


 

 Here you go $9 Ebay:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/161414428256?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## rb2013

So this is all become clear to me:
  
 This box is so close to what we want - but the only thing holding it back was the 96k limit.  And that has always puzzled me.
  
 Now I see why - it must use the DANTE Ultimo chip.  If that chip gets and upgrade to 192k and adds SPDIF or AES Digital out - well we've hit the bullseye.
 http://vintageking.com/focusrite-rednet-am2?gclid=Cj0KEQjwj7q6BRDcxfG4pNTQ2NoBEiQAzUpuW5_YX7izjs00sMdettGmoJPwGuAeO6TFogQjCdAcY3kaAtW38P8HAQ


----------



## rb2013

http://www.sonilan.com/


> Tim Thompson has the experience to get products built overseas. If you are interested in making products in large volume at lower cost, let us know. We have relationships with manufacturers in China and South Korea.


 


 Time for a kickstarter campaign?


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Here you go $9 Ebay:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/161414428256?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
 Thanks!


----------



## wushuliu

rb2013 said:


> http://www.sonilan.com/
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Definitely


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Definitely


 

 I was thinking - all DAC maufacturers have to do is build in a socket for the Dante brooklyn II board - like BURL has done.

 Then the user can just buy a Dante board and plug and play.  For $250.  Direct AES67 to the DAC chips - no spdif in between.
  
 If Audinate comes out with a Brooklyn III then swap them out.
  
 How much could it cost to include one of these sockets?


----------



## roger7

roger7 said:


> Thank you Rob for the effort. I know it's not easy to downgrade the audio chain
> 
> But to be clear. In these setups the Mutec (alone) was better than F1 powered from Teradak DC30W?
> And using PPA in both cases makes small change?


 
  
 Rob, could you answer?


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Rob, could you answer?


 

 Yes exactly right.  Remember the Mutec does (as a USB DDC) what the ICRON/Startech does - galvanic isolation.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Got the same one. Perfect fit.
> Needs to file a tiny bit of extra space in the upper iinside to accomodate the top curve of the SPDIF.
> Would not have been necessary if the case didn't have that 'dip' in the top.


 

 Are you using the F-1 with the Microrendu?


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> Yes exactly right.  Remember the Mutec does (as a USB DDC) what the ICRON/Startech does - galvanic isolation.


 

 I thought you said you were underwhelmed with the Mutec's USB on its own and were only keeping it around to test spdif reclocking?


----------



## Muziqboy

OK. I just received the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock and hooked it up to the SPDIF-out of the RedNet 3 with an Audio Sensibility Statement Silver SE Digital coaxial cable.
 From the Mutec SPDIF-out, I used another Audio Sensibility Statement Silver SE Digital coaxial cable to connect to the Theta Dac. Set-up the Mutec to do Internal & Reclock and was just feeding it 48khz wav files from the RedNet.
  
 HOLY COW!!! I'm just blown away right now and I think I'll just shut up and let @rb2013 report back with his findings.
  
 Hey Bob! When is that big brown truck gonna drop off your big red box?


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Are you using the F-1 with the Microrendu?




No, with a Regen on a TeraDak into a Chord Hugo.
Front end is a dedicated audioPc using 2012R2 in optimised Core mode using AO, Jcat UsB card and fully on the 4 rails of the LPS.
Ethernet input is isolated using an Acousense GISO GB.


----------



## yuhengtiger

I received my F1 today and I am pretty happy about it. Do we need extra galvanic isolation with F1 for upgrade?  I see the discussion about the ICRON usb extender. https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan This are $450? Kind of expensive for the $180 F1...
  
 Thanks.


----------



## FredA

rw35 said:


> I didn't need to shave anything off, just used small amount of force to push it in whilst gently lifting the top = a nice firm hold.




Thanks guys.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> I was thinking - all DAC maufacturers have to do is build in a socket for the Dante brooklyn II board - like BURL has done.
> 
> Then the user can just buy a Dante board and plug and play.  For $250.  Direct AES67 to the DAC chips - no spdif in between.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh, you make is sound so simple! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But to answer your cost question, the Dante Brooklyn PDK with licenses and services is $10,500 to get started.  It does include a lot of support from them, and they have a good team.
  
 Also, they have started including AES67 support for the Brooklyn II module, and while that does not immediately solve the dependency on Dante DVS (which will be fine for a while as long as they keep the s/w compatible with OS X and Windows updates--sadly no Linux support), it does at least mitigate some long term risk in that it is possible that a s/w firm (or maybe even a music player app company) will eventually write AES67-compatible virtual sound card s/w (and no, I don't mean the old ALC NetworX Windos junk) for various platforms.
  
 Limitations still exist:
 Brooklyn II is staying at 192Khz max and the modules are expensive;
 The less costly, fewer channel Ultimo chipset goes only to 96Khz, making it a non-starter for any DAC I would want to produce. 
  
 Ciao,
 --Alex C.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> I thought you said you were underwhelmed with the Mutec's USB on its own and were only keeping it around to test spdif reclocking?


 

 No not at all - it's the best DDC stand alone I have heard yet.  Now with the Uber chain and the F-1 it pales in comparison.
  
 I rate the F-1 (plus the Startech GB LAN Iso and a host of other USB gizmos - I call the Uber chain) at 170 on my scale
  
 The Mutec at 150
  
 Ahead of the PUC2 Lite .
  
 I'm keeping it to test two things - as a Word Clock to input to the REDNET 3 and a SPDIF reclocker on the REDNET 3 - these are different things - or both at the same time  if the Mutec alllows. 
  
 In fact, I ordered a BJC BNC to BNC 1ft for the Work Clock connection - it arrived today.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> OK. I just received the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock and hooked it up to the SPDIF-out of the RedNet 3 with an Audio Sensibility Statement Silver SE Digital coaxial cable.
> From the Mutec SPDIF-out, I used another Audio Sensibility Statement Silver SE Digital coaxial cable to connect to the Theta Dac. Set-up the Mutec to do Internal & Reclock and was just feeding it 48khz wav files from the RedNet.
> 
> HOLY COW!!! I'm just blown away right now and I think I'll just shut up and let @rb2013 report back with his findings.
> ...


 

 Nice!  Have you tried the Mutec as an ext word clock to input to the RD3?  So as a SPDIF reclocker - success.  Have you noticed much of a change with burn in on the RD3?
  
 Tomorrow the Big Red lands - where the hell am I gonna hide that thing?  Wifey is sure to notice such a pretty Red box with flashing lights.  And it looks expensive.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> No, with a Regen on a TeraDak into a Chord Hugo.
> Front end is a dedicated audioPc using 2012R2 in optimised Core mode using AO, Jcat UsB card and fully on the 4 rails of the LPS.
> Ethernet input is isolated using an Acousense GISO GB.


 

 Sweet set-up.  Speaking of JCAT - the kind owner of JCAT just emailed me - seeing if I wanted to try the JCAT USB card for a free trial.
  
 I was like heck yeah.
  
 So add that $500 card to the mix:
 http://jplay.eu/jcat/
  
 Maybe he'll lend me one of his Ref LAN cables as well.  That would be interesting.


----------



## rb2013

yuhengtiger said:


> I received my F1 today and I am pretty happy about it. Do we need extra galvanic isolation with F1 for upgrade?  I see the discussion about the ICRON usb extender. https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan This are $450? Kind of expensive for the $180 F1...
> 
> Thanks.


 

 Yes it is  - but worth it.  Intona is another route a bit cheaper - get the industrial version


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Oh, you make is sound so simple!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Alex,
  
 Well I don;t need the 32 channel input and output on the Brooklyn II - so a Ultimo chipset improvement to 192k might just be the ticket.
  
 Speaking of the Brooklyn II BURL is selling their this for $250 retail.  Can't be too expensive.  The PDK license is -  but I just BURL ponyed up the bucks.  Maybe Mr. BURL (cool looking dude!   Would love to meet this bloke), would entertain building a board to take the BK2 and output SPDIF or AES at 192k.  And just DC power.
  
 Or Focusrite could do an advanced version of the $399 AM2 with spdif out and use the BK1 for 192k.  Or a striped down RD3 that does 2 channels instead of 32.
 Lot's of possibilities!


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Yes exactly right.  Remember the Mutec does (as a USB DDC) what the ICRON/Startech does - galvanic isolation.


 
 Thanks,
 Yes, I know. Galvanic isolation, DDC with different interfaces, recklocking, DSD/DoP to PCM conversion, word clock, etc.
 Real Swiss army knife in a one box.
 Not all of us can have all these nice boxes in the room.
 And F1 has some sort of galvanic isolation too.
  
 Summing up (in your enviroment):
 1. Mutec alone is better than F1 powered with good LPS like Teradac DC30W.
 2. PPA makes a small diference in SQ (it seems F1 and Mutec make good job cleaning USB)
 3. Mutec needs to see 5vdc from USB but no need for LPS.
 4. Uber chain with F1 and Icron/Startech is still better than Mutec alone
 It's very informative.


----------



## roger7

muziqboy said:


> OK. I just received the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock and hooked it up to the SPDIF-out of the RedNet 3 with an Audio Sensibility Statement Silver SE Digital coaxial cable.
> From the Mutec SPDIF-out, I used another Audio Sensibility Statement Silver SE Digital coaxial cable to connect to the Theta Dac. Set-up the Mutec to do Internal & Reclock and was just feeding it 48khz wav files from the RedNet.
> 
> HOLY COW!!! I'm just blown away right now and I think I'll just shut up and let @rb2013 report back with his findings.
> ...


 
  
 Hi
  
 Please compare Rednet 3 vs Mutec if it's not a problem.
 How huge is the difference...ethernet vs very nice USB DDC
  
 Rob please do the same


----------



## Muziqboy

The Mutec I got does not have a USB input. I am only using it as a reclocker for the RedNet and hopefully a Word Clock if I can figure it out so there is no way to compare the two.

Rob has the USB version of the Mutec so he can do that.


----------



## manishex

How would you connect the *TeraDak DC-30W *to the DAC? All I see is a DC out.


----------



## mhamel

muziqboy said:


> The Mutec I got does not have a USB input. I am only using it as a reclocker for the RedNet and hopefully a Word Clock if I can figure it out so there is no way to compare the two.
> 
> Rob has the USB version of the Mutec so he can do that.


 
  
 It should be as straightforward as connecting the Mutec to the Word Clock In on the RedNet 3, then using RedNet Control to set it to sync to an external clock.
  
 Then in Dante Controller, you can set the RedNet 3 as the master clock for the Dante network.


----------



## yuhengtiger

rb2013 said:


> Yes it is  - but worth it.  Intona is another route a bit cheaper - get the industrial version


 
 Thank you! Can I use this ICRON alone with the F1? (no extra startech, rednet stuff ) Like connect the remote and local ICRON box with an internet cable, and it will provide good gavanic isolation and improve the S of F1?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Muziqboy

mhamel said:


> It should be as straightforward as connecting the Mutec to the Word Clock In on the RedNet 3, then using RedNet Control to set it to sync to an external clock.
> 
> Then in Dante Controller, you can set the RedNet 3 as the master clock for the Dante network.




Thanks! I'll play around with it more tonight when I get home. The Mutec has like 6 BNC Word Clock outputs so not sure which 1 I should connect to.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Thanks,
> Yes, I know. Galvanic isolation, DDC with different interfaces, recklocking, DSD/DoP to PCM conversion, word clock, etc.
> Real Swiss army knife in a one box.
> Not all of us can have all these nice boxes in the room.
> ...


 

 Well the F-1 has isolation - but not complete galvanic isolation.
  
 1) Yes
 2) Yes
 3) Yes
 4) Yes
  
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Hi
> 
> Please compare Rednet 3 vs Mutec if it's not a problem.
> How huge is the difference...ethernet vs very nice USB DDC
> ...


 

 Oh you bet.
  
 Face off of the giants.
  
 Just saw this up in the classifeds:
  
 Audience aRp2-TO  Regularly $1700 - for sale for $600.  Somebody buy this before I do.
  
 I have the younger brother the aRp1 - Clarity Caps.  This one has uber totl Teflon caps.  Mine made a real difference.  All my AC line isolators and filters feed from it.
 http://www.audience-av.com/news/?p=661


----------



## rb2013

manishex said:


> How would you connect the *TeraDak DC-30W *to the DAC? All I see is a DC out.


 

 It feeds the DDC F-1 through a W4S Recovery.


----------



## rb2013

yuhengtiger said:


> Thank you! Can I use this ICRON alone with the F1? (no extra startech, rednet stuff ) Like connect the remote and local ICRON box with an internet cable, and it will provide good gavanic isolation and improve the S of F1?
> 
> Thanks!


 

 Yes - the ICRON and the Startech are the same thing (ICRON makes it for Startech).  Be sure it is the GB LAN version that does iso audio.
  
 Yes a major improvement to the F-1.
  
 NOT THIS ONE!  - does not support iso audio
 http://www.l-com.com/usb-icron-usb-20-ranger-2304-lan-4-port-usb-20-ethernet-lan-usb-extender
  
 NOT THIS ONE! - does not do 1GB LAN
 https://www.icronshop.com/home/usb-20-ranger-2304
  
  
  
 THIS ONE!
USB 2.0 RG2304GE-LAN  RG2304GE-LAN is a 4-port isochronous USB 2.0 extender across Gigabit Ethernet Local Area Network (LAN) https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/usb-20-rg2304ge-lan


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> It should be as straightforward as connecting the Mutec to the Word Clock In on the RedNet 3, then using RedNet Control to set it to sync to an external clock.
> 
> Then in Dante Controller, you can set the RedNet 3 as the master clock for the Dante network.


 

 Thanks!  The RD3 is set for terminal but check that as well, I believe in RedNet Control.
  
 I believe the Mutec 'Smart Clock' feature auto detects the sample rate.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Thanks! I'll play around with it more tonight when I get home. The Mutec has like 6 BNC Word Clock outputs so not sure which 1 I should connect to.


 

 It should autodetect - set to word clock function.  Set to 'Internal clock' - as the Mutec can also accept an atomic ext clock - then feed that to the other devices on the LAN.  Use the Word Clock 1A BNC (upper left most)


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Sweet set-up.  Speaking of JCAT - the kind owner of JCAT just emailed me - seeing if I wanted to try the JCAT USB card for a free trial.
> 
> I was like heck yeah.
> 
> ...




Feed it with an LPS for the 5V USB if needed. Don't forget to set the jumpers accordingly.
With a bit of DIY, you can also prevent the card itself using 3.3V from the PCI connector and feed it also with an LPS or battery.


----------



## KEGGER

Of all the GB Lan Gizmos I wondered if any of this could of been used here,
 Seems to be high speed industrial standard and scale-able even now, with cables galore.
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfiniBand
  
 http://www.cablinginstall.com/articles/print/volume-16/issue-4/features/data-center/practical-deployment-and-management-of-infiniband.html
  
 And even inexpensive cards can be had, my dell server had 1 of these in it.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Infinicon-900440-100-1-InfiniServ-4X-HCA-7104-HCA-128-LP-/301028397331


----------



## KEGGER

Still running the X-1 here, (for anyone interested in/considering the more "budget based" route here) 
  
 Only change I've made recently was adding my E180CC tube based buffer from the DAC output to amp/preamp.
 (which I previously used on my main audio system from the DAC as well)
  
 The digital performance I'm getting now on my pc is by far better than any I've had on my main audio system non pc related.
 (and I'm still just running PC USB power to the X-1, as I have not got my updates for that part yet, but they will be coming)
  
 So to sum it up this X-1 setup beats any cd-player, cd-player/dac I've ran in my systems here,
 (that would be "medium range" HIFI cost/performance wise cd-player, cd-player/dac combos)
  
 Thanks again Rob for the tip/card,
 (It was just what I was looking to get)


----------



## rw35

I wonder why there appears to be no audio kit with Mini-GBIC SFP slots or SC/LC sockets... fibre is the best way to guarantee galvanic isolation.
  
 Is it best to have the conversion done externally via FMC?


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Feed it with an LPS for the 5V USB if needed. Don't forget to set the jumpers accordingly.
> With a bit of DIY, you can also prevent the card itself using 3.3V from the PCI connector and feed it also with an LPS or battery.


 

 What I like about the PPA cards is this adapter - that moves all power away from the PC to a LPS

  

  
  
 Here is the JCAT card - of course with external power adapter built in:

  
 According to Marcin - the JCAT card alone is better then the Intona, Regen or Recovery.  He is interested in the F-1 and will try one.
  
 BTW he runs the awesome APL DSD-M DAC.


----------



## yuhengtiger

rb2013 said:


> Yes - the ICRON and the Startech are the same thing (ICRON makes it for Startech).  Be sure it is the GB LAN version that does iso audio.
> 
> Yes a major improvement to the F-1.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for this information. Will try it!


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> Still running the X-1 here, (for anyone interested in/considering the more "budget based" route here)
> 
> Only change I've made recently was adding my E180CC tube based buffer from the DAC output to amp/preamp.
> (which I previously used on my main audio system from the DAC as well)
> ...


 

 Glad that is working out for you.  The X-1 is the forgotten step child to the F-1.  But pretty good in it's own right.  Has the ultra low phase noise NDK SD clocks.
  
 Speaking of - when is DIYinHK coming out with the Pro4a?  Should be soon.


----------



## rb2013

yuhengtiger said:


> Thanks for this information. Will try it!


 

 Nice!


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> What I like about the PPA cards is this adapter - that moves all power away from the PC to a LPS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm not familiar with the PPA card but what I understand about the JCAT is that the external power adapter only feeds the 5V line of the USB port.
 The board itself still operates on the 3.3V it draws from the PCIe connector and not from the attached PS.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> I'm not familiar with the PPA card but what I understand about the JCAT is that the external power adapter only feeds the 5V line of the USB port.
> The board itself still operates on the 3.3V it draws from the PCIe connector and not from the attached PS.


 

 I see  - I believe the PPA draws all it's power from the ext port - if that adapter is added.
  
 Funny that JCAT still uses the 'dirty' power of the PC for the card's clocks.
  
 Oh I hope the REDNET3 sounds good - so tired of USB.
  
 According to Marcin - he did not think the RD3 was significant.


----------



## seeteeyou

rb2013 said:


> Now the issue with the XMOS XK-AUDIO-216-MC-AB - is 96k limit - multi channel as it's main purpose.  No SPDIF out.  High cost $300.


 
  
 Not true. IMHO it's a deal for 300 bucks
  
 https://www.xmos.com/download/private/xCORE-200-Multichannel-Audio-Platform-(-AB)-Product-Brief(1.2).pdf
  


> Audio
> 
> • S/PDIF optical/coaxial input and output
> • Supported sample rates
> ...


 
  
  
 https://www.xmos.com/download/private/xCORE-200-Multichannel-Audio-Platform-2V0-Hardware-Manual(1.4).pdf
  


> Exploiting the flexible programmability of the xCORE-200 architecture, the Multichannel Audio Platform supports either USB or network audio source, streaming 8 input and 8 output audio channels simultaneously - *at up to 192kHz.* Ideal for mixing two sources and providing main and headphone monitor output feeds.


 
  


> Digital audio output
> 
> Optical and *coaxial digital audio transmitters are used to provide digital audio output* in formats such as IEC60958 consumer mode *(S/PDIF)* and ADAT.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Singxer should be more than familiar with the xCORE-200 architecture at this point, it's just a matter of convincing them to make more money without having to invest an awful lot of resources to get the job done IMHO.
  
 They know what they're doing based on the value they've been providing to we audiophiles so far. That $300 development board does have Gigabit Ethernet and coaxial output to boot, plus 12V DC input, and finally up to 192kHz and DSD128 for those of us who really need those sampling rates.
  
  
 Even if Singxer weren't interested, we still have another backup plan in Marlborough, MA
  
 http://www.sonilan.com/el-panamericano/
  
 Of course it might be even better if there were synergistic cooperation between both of them IMHO, who knows?


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> Not true. IMHO it's a deal for 300 bucks
> 
> https://www.xmos.com/download/private/xCORE-200-Multichannel-Audio-Platform-(-AB)-Product-Brief(1.2).pdf
> 
> ...


 

 I stand corrected!  Very exciting!   How come no ones has implemented this yet in a Ethernet AVB audio device.
  
 Does it come with the ASIO drivers for ethernet?


----------



## rb2013

https://www.xmos.com/download/private/xCORE-200-Multichannel-Audio-Platform-%28-AB%29-Product-Brief%281.2%29.pdf
  
 Holy Cow this thing does it all - it's a USB DDC, a ethernet AVB DDC, a DAC , a ADC, a mixer,etc...
  
 To bad ithwey
  


> TARGET APPLICATIONS
> Pro Audio
> •
> Speakers
> ...


 


> 10/100/1000 Mbps Ethernet connection.
> AVB standard compliant endpoint. AVnu plugfest proven interoperability with other vendors.


 


> Source code reference software Integrated development tools suit. Rapid development and code reuse Royalty-free deployment. Fast time to market.


 


> It includes the following features:
> ∑
> A: xCORE-200 (XE216-512-TQ128) Multicore Microcontroller device
> ∑
> ...


 



> In order to accommodate a multitude of clocking options, the low-jitter master
> clock is generated locally using a frequency multiplier PLL chip. The chip used is a
> Phaselink PL611-01, which is pre-programmed to provide a 24MHz clock from its
> CLK0 output, and either 24.576 MHz (FSEL high) or 22.5792MHz (FSEL low) from
> ...


----------



## wushuliu

rb2013 said:


> https://www.xmos.com/download/private/xCORE-200-Multichannel-Audio-Platform-%28-AB%29-Product-Brief%281.2%29.pdf
> 
> Holy Cow this thing does it all - it's a USB DDC, a ethernet AVB DDC, a DAC , a ADC, a mixer,etc...
> 
> To bad ithwey


 
  
 So do we need to contact Singxer directly and be like MAKE THIS NOW?


----------



## jabbr

wushuliu said:


> So do we need to contact Singxer directly and be like MAKE THIS NOW?





wushuliu said:


> So do we need to contact Singxer directly and be like MAKE THIS NOW?




I would suggest you read this: http://controlgeek.net/blog/2015/7/2/avb-and-audinates-dante-an-update-after-infocomm-2015

A few telling quotes:



> Work on AVB started back in 2005, and I first saw a demo of it at Infocomm 2009 (my initial writeup with an introduction to the technology here).  It seemed like a great idea, and I was a big proponent of it.  However, by 2013 I was concerned that the AVB development was dragging behind the needs of the live sound market, and after Infocomm in June of that year I was thinking that it might succeed if it could be integrated with Dante, who by then was well established with major players in our market like Yamaha and Shure. Later that summer, I visited the AVnu testing lab in New Hampshire, and was still somewhat hopeful about AVB's prospects, but after AES in November of 2013, after the release of the AES-67 inter-operability standard, I peered into my crystal ball and wrote, "Audinate's Dante has won the race, while AVB is still being tweaked by the mechanics over in the pit lane. ".  That was further reinforced by what I my visit to Infocomm last year, and even more so this year. ]




And


> . So where are we today?  I no longer need my crystal ball--Dante is currently the defacto audio networking solution for the live sound industry. ]


----------



## nine93

rb2013 said:


> Yes - the ICRON and the Startech are the same thing (ICRON makes it for Startech).  Be sure it is the GB LAN version that does iso audio.
> 
> Yes a major improvement to the F-1.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I just received this one from the mail: https://www.icronshop.com/home/ranger-2304ge-lan-
 Internal is very different from the RG2304GE-LAN that you link above.


----------



## rb2013

nine93 said:


> I just received this one from the mail: https://www.icronshop.com/home/ranger-2304ge-lan-
> Internal is very different from the RG2304GE-LAN that you link above.


 

 That's because you bought the wrong one.
  
 Here is one I have from Amazon and have posted the link to numerous times.
 OP have linked to different various ones - some correct and some incorrect:
 http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00


----------



## Muziqboy

IMHO, The RedNet 3 utilizing the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock as a SPDIF Reclocker is truly a match made in heaven.
 Big bucks for both of them but you do get what you pay for.
  
 I have never ever heard Music played out of a headphone rig sound so close to the real thing. Just pure bliss!
 This rig has been keeping me up all night until the wee hours of the morning.
 Now I need to go to sleep. lol


----------



## nine93

rb2013 said:


> That's because you bought the wrong one.
> 
> Here is one I have from Amazon and have posted the link to numerous times.
> OP have linked to different various ones - some correct and some incorrect:
> http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00


 
 Now I know
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The naming scheme is so confusing.  I thought I'm buying the same one, except it is in silver.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> IMHO, The RedNet 3 utilizing the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock as a SPDIF Reclocker is truly a match made in heaven.
> Big bucks for both of them but you do get what you pay for.
> 
> I have never ever heard Music played out of a headphone rig sound so close to the real thing. Just pure bliss!
> ...


 

 My Big Red Box has arrived but having a little difficulty getting it to work (this is not a plug and play deal - that DVS license needed me to move my PC to an internet connection - Ugg!  No Thesycon USB XMOS driver ever required a internet handashake).
  
 I have the REDNET Control open - how do I get to the mapping screen - all the options are grayed out.


----------



## rb2013

nine93 said:


> Now I know
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes extremely confusing.


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> My Big Red Box has arrived but having a little difficulty getting it to work (this is not a plug and play deal - that DVS license needed me to move my PC to an internet connection - Ugg!  No Thesycon USB XMOS driver ever required a internet handashake).
> 
> I have the REDNET Control open - how do I get to the mapping screen - all the options are grayed out.


 

 I think I have it set SPDIF now - at least it is in the REDNET Control - but the box still says ADAT.


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> I think I have it set SPDIF now - at least it is in the REDNET Control - but the box still says ADAT.


 

 Found it!  When in doubt read the manual!  Sounds nice - now to install in the main room.
  
 OK before I do that - put up the Classical Haydn I was listening to this morning in my office.  Very nice - sweet, musical, warm, - just a noticeable ease to the music.  Really not kidding like something annoying was removed.  So analog that way - non digital.
  
 Ok to main room and the Mutec.


----------



## rb2013

Holy Cow!! This is just unbelieveable!   The sound is just at a whole other level.  Not incremental - a seachange in SQ.
  
 Warm, sweet, ease, but the detail - mama mia.  Details, detail and transparency like I have never heard before. 
  
 I'm floored - thinking this box has been out there for a couple of years.
  
 And this is cold out of the box, stock CAT5 cable, NO Mutec yet.
  
 All I can say is King USB is DEAD - long live KING AOIP!


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Holy Cow!! This is just unbelieveable!   The sound is just at a whole other level.  Not incremental - a seachange in SQ.
> 
> Warm, sweet, ease, but the detail - mama mia.  Details, detail and transparency like I have never heard before.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So it did beat your UBER USB chain which I did have a feeling it will. What do you say, about 250 on your ranking with the Mutec in place.
  
 Just wait until you utilize the Mutec as an SPDIF reclocker. Another leap in SQ to oblivion.
  
 So was I close when I said that REALISM was off the CHARTS?
  
 Say goodbye to USB with all the gremlins that come with it and embrace the new future of computer audio like I did!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

rb2013 said:


> Holy Cow!! This is just unbelieveable!   The sound is just at a whole other level.  Not incremental - a seachange in SQ.
> 
> Warm, sweet, ease, but the detail - mama mia.  Details, detail and transparency like I have never heard before.
> 
> ...


 
  


muziqboy said:


> Just wait until you utilize the Mutec as an SPDIF reclocker. Another leap in SQ to oblivion.
> 
> So was I close when I said that REALISM was off the CHARTS?
> 
> ...


 


 I would like to say I implanted that thought (maybe reinforced? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) into Eric's mind during the Portland meet in early May when I told him that USB was originally created for accessories and input devices to not take IRQs from a system -- not digital audio.

 Next thing you know he's posting here about the Rednet... A new dawn of digital transport has arrived folks. I might jump to a rednet3 but skip the mutec for now. Wallet hates it ears love it. I'll be able to hear it mid June during the Bellingham meet for myself and just then I may just take the dive.


 (Is gigabit lan necessary or 10/100 works with AOIP?)


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> So it did beat your UBER USB chain which I did have a feeling it will. What do you say, about 250 on your ranking with the Mutec in place.
> 
> Just wait until you utilize the Mutec as an SPDIF reclocker. Another leap in SQ to oblivion.
> 
> ...


 

 Oh not even close!  Yeah  at least a 210-220. 240 with the Mutec as reclocker.  Versus the 170 for the Uber chain + the F-1.  I'm laughing as I just took this massive pile of gear out of my main room - I count 3 LPS TeraDaks, 3 black boxes - 2 Startech and a Recovery, A freaking pile of cables and iFi gizmos.
  
 Now I tried the BJC CAT6 cable - I could hear no difference from the very nice Red CAT cable from Focusrite.
  
 Then tried the Mutec as ext word clock - it made the sound slightly veiled and flat - so obviously the clocking in the RD3 is excellent.
  
 Then tried the Mutec as a SPDIF reclocker - that is nice, really nice.  Not a huge leap but another 10% more goodness.  And I will get the non-USB version if one comes up for sale used.
  
 But I can easily live with just the REDNET 3 and will for some time.
  
 Now what to do with all this gear - One F-1 will go for a loan to my friend who lent me the Mutec (mailing it back tomorrow - Many thanks bro'), then once back will be sold.
  
 The rest of my gear will get shoe horned into my office system - but there will be lot's left over for the classifieds.  So watch them next week.
  
 So happy right now!  Thanks to you and Mike - should have listened to you a month ago!
  
 Cheers


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Oh not even close!  Yeah  at least a 210-220. 240 with the Mutec as reclocker.  Versus the 170 for the Uber chain + the F-1.  I'm laughing as I just took this massive pile of gear out of my main room - I count 3 LPS TeraDaks, 3 black boxes - 2 Startech and a Recovery, A freaking pile of cables and iFi gizmos.
> 
> Now I tried the BJC CAT6 cable - I could hear no difference from the very nice Red CAT cable from Focusrite.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think the USB guys will start hating us now! lol
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> I would like to say I implanted that thought (maybe reinforced?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Man you will die when you hear this - the liquidity and ease is just supreme.  Like some hard to define distortion has been removed.
  
 Mine is a direct connection - so I can't tell you about below GB LAN.  It does say 250us latency in the REDNET controler.
  
 The set-up was a piece of cake once I got the licensing for the DVS squared away.  Took about 15 minutes.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> I think the USB guys will start hating us now! lol
> 
> Cheers!


 

 Oh no doubt - folks you heard it hear first.  The RD3 or 16d plus the Mutec 3+ has got to be sota digital right now.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

muziqboy said:


> I think the USB guys will start hating us now! lol
> 
> Cheers!


 

 They don't know what they're missing!!!
  
  


rb2013 said:


> Man you will die when you hear this - the liquidity and ease is just supreme.  Like some had to define distortion has been removed.
> 
> Mine is a direct connection - so I can't tell you about below GB LAN.  It does say 250us latency in the REDNET controler.
> 
> The set-up was a piece of cake once I got the licensing for the DVS squared away.  Took about 15 minutes.


 
  




 I'm onboard the Rednet3 wagon folks, mine's coming in next week. This hobby..


----------



## mourip

Does anyone know if the Dante PC "Asio" client will run on Win2012?

Are those of you who already have a Rednet unit using Win10?

Very exciting stuff here!


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> They don't know what they're missing!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 HA!  Wish I had bought that one on Gearsluz for $625.
  
 Yum Yum!


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Does anyone know if the Dante PC "Asio" client will run on Win2012?
> 
> Are those of you who already have a Rednet unit using Win10?
> 
> Very exciting stuff here!


 

 WIN 10  - now I guess I should see if JPlay works - need a break from the NASA like project to rewire my home office USB chain


----------



## wushuliu

muziqboy said:


> I think the USB guys will start hating us now! lol
> 
> Cheers!


 
 Yep!


----------



## wushuliu

Ugh. I know I'm going to give in...


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Glad that is working out for you.  The X-1 is the forgotten step child to the F-1.  But pretty good in it's own right.  Has the ultra low phase noise NDK SD clocks.
> 
> Speaking of - when is DIYinHK coming out with the Pro4a?  Should be soon.




And how about the c-1 board, not from Singxer perhaps, not sure? The clocks are on the isolated side, which is a plus and they are are supposedly better (femto), according to a seller. Leaning towards that one right now, i just need i2s. Overall jitter well under 1ps. It would allow the shortest i2s cable length possible (2 inches or so).

Anyone tried it?


----------



## wushuliu

freda said:


> And how about the c-1 board, not from Singxer perhaps, not sure? The clocks are on the isolated side, which is a plus and they are are supposedly better (femto), according to a seller. Leaning towards that one right now, i just need i2s. Overall jitter well under 1ps. It would allow the shortest i2s cable length possible (2 inches or so).
> 
> Anyone tried it?





>


 
 Do you have a link for the C-1? Have a hard time tracking these other versions down...


----------



## wushuliu

Hm, a dirt cheap XU208 converter here... Competition is heating up?


----------



## Marcin_gps

jabbr said:


> I'm not familiar with the PPA card but what I understand about the JCAT is that the external power adapter only feeds the 5V line of the USB port.
> The board itself still operates on the 3.3V it draws from the PCIe connector and not from the attached PS.


 

 No. If external 5V is present then PCi-E 3.3V will be used only for 1.05V regulator for NEC digital core.
 The JCAT board has a linear regulator which can provide additional filtering to the NEC chip. Without external 5V connected, the 3.3V from computer will be applied directly to the NEC chip without much filtering. 
  
 Cheers, 
 Marcin


----------



## elms

Can we use this instead of rednet 3?  http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o


----------



## ciphercomplete

Nice report on the Rednet.

Strictly a cosmetic question here. How wide is it and are the rack ears removable? Not that any of that would stop me from purchasing.


----------



## motberg

This SU-1 page has some internal shots I have not yet seen posted here...
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a219r.lm0.14.1.pCXMpL&ns=1&abbucket=2#detail


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Ugh. I know I'm going to give in...


 

 Resistance is futile!
  
 I have to say I am amazed - I expected a draw at best.  Not this level of improvement.
  
 Not sure if any audiophile has heard this before - these Pro guys keeping it a secret - and boy do they keep good secrets.
  
 This is lights out the best audio I have ever heard - my old $30k analog rig is mince meat compared to this SQ.
  
 Will call old BURL up tomorrow and get the low down on his Brooklyn II $250 card.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Hm, a dirt cheap XU208 converter here... Competition is heating up?


 

 I have that one - QS-1
  
 Not bad for the money.

  
 But after hearing what good AOIP can do  - really USB is history.

 We just need a reasonably priced solution  and it's gonna be lights out.


----------



## rb2013

marcin_gps said:


> No. If external 5V is present then PCi-E 3.3V will be used only for 1.05V regulator for NEC digital core.
> The JCAT board has a linear regulator which can provide additional filtering to the NEC chip. Without external 5V connected, the 3.3V from computer will be applied directly to the NEC chip without much filtering.
> 
> Cheers,
> Marcin


 

 Thanks Marcin for the clarification.  Just from the looks of it a big step above the PPA V2


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> Nice report on the Rednet.
> 
> Strictly a cosmetic question here. How wide is it and are the rack ears removable? Not that any of that would stop me from purchasing.


 

 This box is not light in weight and reeks quality through and through - rack ears not removable. 
  
 I measure 19x10x4


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> WIN 10  - now I guess I should see if JPlay works - need a break from the NASA like project to rewire my home office USB chain


 

 JPlay is a no go  - with the DANTE ASIO.


----------



## wushuliu

elms said:


> Can we use this instead of rednet 3?  http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o


 
 Whoa. What the hell is this?


----------



## wushuliu

elms said:


> Can we use this instead of rednet 3?  http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o


 
 The usb version seems comparable to a microrendu, but $200+ cheaper. Maybe better than the Icron? Not the RedNet holy grail, I know...
  
 EDIT: never mind, just read the specs... no good.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Whoa. What the hell is this?


 

 No that's based on the DANTE Ultimo - which isn;t so Ultimo, at least right now.  Limited to 96k.  Maybe good - but the REDNET 3 uses the Brooklyn DANTE card.  The better REDNET 16d uses the Brooklyn II DANTE card that'll do 176k.  But it's twice the cost of the RD3.


----------



## somestranger26

I hope someone will make a 2-channel version of the Rednet 3. I don't want a giant $1000 box just for 2 channel audio.


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> Resistance is futile!
> 
> I have to say I am amazed - I expected a draw at best.  Not this level of improvement.
> 
> ...




Amen to that Brother!


----------



## FredA

wushuliu said:


> Do you have a link for the C-1? Have a hard time tracking these other versions down...




There you go.

http://fr.shenzhenaudio.com/c-1-xmos-digital-interface-board-xu208-u8-upgraded-version-femtosecond-tcxo.html#comment_html


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

somestranger26 said:


> I hope someone will make a 2-channel version of the Rednet 3. I don't want a giant $1000 box just for 2 channel audio.


 

 You know as soon as a 2-channel is made, it's marked "audiophile" and you'll probably save a whopping $200 over the Pro-Audio stuff. Now if a Chinese company took over and made a 2ch, clunky looking or not even in a box -- it'll probably be sub-$500.


----------



## somestranger26

soundsgoodtome said:


> You know as soon as a 2-channel is made, it's marked "audiophile" and you'll probably save a whopping $200 over the Pro-Audio stuff.


 

 If it's $200 less, closer to the size of the SU-1 and has BNC out I would be happy.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> I hope someone will make a 2-channel version of the Rednet 3. I don't want a giant $1000 box just for 2 channel audio.


 

 That's totally understandable.  Boy neither did I  - but glad I did (well mine was a demo for $800).
  
 Will speak with BURL tomorrow and see if he can't come up with something.
  
 He just switched over all his products to DANTE - so he has obviously paid the $10k SDK fee.
  
 Sells the BK2 boards for $250 -  just need a board and box to plug into for SPDIF or AES.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> You know as soon as a 2-channel is made, it's marked "audiophile" and you'll probably save a whopping $200 over the Pro-Audio stuff. Now if a Chinese company took over and made a 2ch, clunky looking or not even in a box -- it'll probably be sub-$500.


 

 Well that AVB ethernet XMOS board (actually it looks like a plug and play solution - but needs an interface) looks very close to what we need.  Better clocking and a interface would be welcome.
  
 I do think it very exciting that we actually have a $1K AOIP solution now - not vaporware.  So with our push we can wake these manufacturers up to the mass potential.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> I hope someone will make a 2-channel version of the Rednet 3. I don't want a giant $1000 box just for 2 channel audio.


 

 My RD3 didn't come with a sub-d AES breakout cable - unfortunately.  But SPDIF is working fantastic.


----------



## borrego

I am a little bit confused. Does one also need to buy the RedNet PCIe Card (https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-pcie-card) to use with the RedNet 3? Or my notebook's existing Ethernet port will do?
  
 The full Burl B2 Bomber DAC with Dante input costs USD2,349. Hopefully they can come out a A10 Tank buster Dante->AES/SPDIF/I2S interface for less than $400.


----------



## rb2013

borrego said:


> I am a little bit confused. Does one also need to buy the RedNet PCIe Card (https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-pcie-card) to use with the RedNet 3? Or my notebook's existing Ethernet port will do?
> 
> The full Burl B2 Bomber DAC with Dante input costs USD2,349. Hopefully they can come out a A10 Tank buster Dante->AES/SPDIF/I2S interface for less than $400.


Lol, I was thinking more like the Stealth F117 Dante SPDIF. No you can use your existing Ethernet port, It runs off a Digital Virtual Soundcard. WIN & Apple supported, no Linux yet.


----------



## borrego

rb2013 said:


> Lol, I was thinking more like the Stealth F117 Dante SPDIF. No you can use your existing Ethernet port, It runs off a Digital Virtual Soundcard. WIN & Apple supported, no Linux yet.


 
  
 LOL. I suppose A10 will be much cheaper than F117/F22/F35...


----------



## rb2013

borrego said:


> LOL. I suppose A10 will be much cheaper than F117/F22/F35...


Yeah but that is old tech, maybe the TR-3 SPDIF...


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Oh not even close!  Yeah  at least a 210-220. 240 with the Mutec as reclocker.  Versus the 170 for the Uber chain + the F-1.  I'm laughing as I just took this massive pile of gear out of my main room - I count 3 LPS TeraDaks, 3 black boxes - 2 Startech and a Recovery, A freaking pile of cables and iFi gizmos.
> 
> Now I tried the BJC CAT6 cable - I could hear no difference from the very nice Red CAT cable from Focusrite.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cheers, I'm glad to hear you took the chance and tried it out.
  
    -Mike


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> This box is not light in weight and reeks quality through and through - rack ears not removable.
> 
> I measure 19x10x4


 
  
 The rack ears are not removable on the D16, either, but it's only 1U (1.75") tall, just over 10" deep.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> My RD3 didn't come with a sub-d AES breakout cable - unfortunately.  But SPDIF is working fantastic.


 
  
 The company that I had make my SPDIF->AES cable can do them... you can probably have a cable made with just a single AES breakout, using excellent quality Mogami cable for not much money at all.


----------



## jabbr

Dilemma:

I use the Mqn software player on 44.1 wav. This player sounds 10 times as good as when the same tracks are played in 96 kHz on Foobar.

Mqn is extremely optimised for KS-drivers and supports KS-drivers only.

FocusRite only offers ASIO-drivers. So I would loose the possibility to use Mqn.

Million dollar question:
Is RedNet going to make up for the loss of SQ, because of loosing Mqn as player, by improving SQ by at least as much by loosing the USB chain?


----------



## seeteeyou

For those of us who are interested in AVB because of that XMOS development board, here's an interesting card for desktops
  
 http://echoavb.com/products/streamware-nic-1
  
 Links to Streamware for Windows
  
 http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/2355/files/SetupStreamware_2.1.18.exe
 http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/2355/files/Streamware_for_Windows_Dec-3-2013.pdf
  
 Since it's already sold out, I've been digging deeper to figure out what that's all about. Apparently it's based on Broadcom BCM57766
  
 https://www.broadcom.com/products/ethernet-communication-and-switching/ethernet-controllers/bcm57766
  
*BCM57766_OEM1       = "Echo Streamware NIC-1"*
  
  
 Drivers on Windows Update
  
 http://catalog.update.microsoft.com/v7/site/ScopedViewInline.aspx?updateid=6db52f26-4645-4be2-bf68-1a8d031a7aff
 http://catalog.update.microsoft.com/v7/site/ScopedViewInline.aspx?updateid=992f9667-230a-4994-a8f5-048fb9c7d7b0
 http://download.windowsupdate.com/d/msdownload/update/driver/drvs/2015/09/200006450_512783ffdee009a1bf8b11f926a20842044b54d8.cab
 http://download.windowsupdate.com/d/msdownload/update/driver/drvs/2015/09/200006451_4eaec6cd1e65527c5a705f66e77dccf7e34aaa15.cab
  
  
 I checked the files *b57nd60x.inf* from the latest driver updates (17.2.0.2) and the same line could be found
  
 https://www.broadcom.com/support/ethernet-nic-netxtreme-i-desktop-mobile
  
*BCM57766_OEM1       = "Echo Streamware NIC-1"*
  
  
 BCM57766 could be found inside 2012 iMac, Mac Mini, and Apple Thunderbolt Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (MD463LL/A)
  
 http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD463LL/A/thunderbolt-to-gigabit-ethernet-adapter
 http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-Gigabit-Ethernet-MD463LL/dp/B011K4RKFW
  
 It would be great if there were PCI-Express cards available with the same BCM57766 chipset.


----------



## Muziqboy

wushuliu said:


> Ugh. I know I'm going to give in...


 

 Come on! You know you wanna!


----------



## ccschua

for the benefits of those with acrobatics system, I wonder if anyone with rednet 3 can try running this off with Windows Server 2012 (minimized server mode, WS 2012 is free at the moment) with foobar.
  
 the thing is whether improved OS will improve the sound further or it is "galnically isolated " to software / OCXO clocks.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Cheers, I'm glad to hear you took the chance and tried it out.
> 
> -Mike


 

 Me too - you were the one to bring this to our attention and fill in a lot of missing details.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> The rack ears are not removable on the D16, either, but it's only 1U (1.75") tall, just over 10" deep.


 

 The D16 has the Brooklyn 2 card right?  What do think is is the major sonic difference from the Brooklyn 1 card?  They seem to have the same clocks.  I know the BK2 can do 44, 48, 88, 96, 176k, and 192k - and the BK 1 does 44, 48, 88, 96 and 193.  So the missing frequency for the BK1 is 176k. 
  
 This no issue for me - as I upsample all data to 192k in Foobar using the SoX upsampler.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> The company that I had make my SPDIF->AES cable can do them... you can probably have a cable made with just a single AES breakout, using excellent quality Mogami cable for not much money at all.


 

 I may do that just to see the difference.
  
 Listen last was a revelation!  Wow - just breath taking.  I'll note in my office system I noticed this ease and flow, but not as dramatic a change in SQ as in my main system.

 So to really hear this sea change in SQ you will need a highly resolving system.
  
 I have to say I'm floored again - at how important this digital data stream is - astounded at the SQ changes.  Same DAC, same Amp, same speakers.   This really is where the action is.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Dilemma:
> 
> I use the Mqn software player on 44.1 wav. This player sounds 10 times as good as when the same tracks are played in 96 kHz on Foobar.
> 
> ...


 

 10 times - that's alot.


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> For those of us who are interested in AVB because of that XMOS development board, here's an interesting card for desktops
> 
> http://echoavb.com/products/streamware-nic-1
> 
> ...


 

 Great stuff!  On the NIC card - I guess the AVB is only for internal PC use only.  I don't see any digital out.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> The D16 has the Brooklyn 2 card right?  What do think is is the major sonic difference from the Brooklyn 1 card?  They seem to have the same clocks.  I know the BK2 can do 44, 48, 88, 96, 176k, and 192k - and the BK 1 does 44, 48, 88, 96 and 193.  So the missing frequency for the BK1 is 176k.
> 
> This no issue for me - as I upsample all data to 192k in Foobar using the SoX upsampler.




One interesting advantage would be that it is the sample rate used for DSD64 in DoP-format.
It is also the highest sample rate available for proper DSD to PCM conversion.


----------



## wushuliu

Burl would need to add a power supply to a custom Brooklyn card, correct? We're talking a standalone unit, not some kind of add-on? Hopefully that should still be doable <$500... I'm going to hold off on a getting a rednet until I hear more about a smaller option.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> One interesting advantage would be that it is the sample rate used for DSD64 in DoP-format.
> It is also the highest sample rate available for proper DSD to PCM conversion.


 

 You mean 192k?


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> 10 times - that's alot. :wink_face:




Yes, give or take 0.5 

But as I saw you coming with such a reply  I did a listening test specifically for it.
And the result was that I could not bear to listen to 96kHz on Foobar. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but i found it totally uninvolving and muddled, whereas Mqn plays with absolute clarity, great level of detail and very well balanced from deep bass to high frequencies. It is also very, very lifelike e.g. very well noticeable on percussion instruments like woodblocks or rims of drums where it gives a great sense of attack.

I must say I have optimised my OS by, amongst other things, syncing the NTTimerResolution and the size of the USB driver buffer for the F1 which I find greatly improves SQ.

It is a shame forum talk cannot really convey what one is actually hearing.

I might just try a Rednet D16 for a few weeks, as I found a dealer who has a 60-days return policy, as I am much attracted to the AOIP concept.
So maybe the proof has to come from the eating of the pudding. A shame I will need to buy a new 2-port NIC to try though.

Cheers


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Burl would need to add a power supply to a custom Brooklyn card, correct? We're talking a standalone unit, not some kind of add-on? Hopefully that should still be doable <$500... I'm going to hold off on a getting a rednet until I hear more about a smaller option.


 

 Yes it would be a simple board - no DAC or ADC function.  Just taking the BK2 card and feeding it DC power and outputing SPDIF and/or AES.
  
 The new Dante Brooklyn II card has the processor built in:
 https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-brooklyn-ii
  


> A single Brooklyn II module provides a complete, ready-to-use Dante interface, and can equip a networked audio device with as many as 64 channels of bi-directional digital streaming. *The onboard MicroBlaze CPU includes its own Linux environment, enabling the development of custom embedded applications for device and network control and monitoring.* A wide range of interfaces is supported, and Audinate’s comprehensive software toolkit streamlines integration, dramatically lowering time to market.


 
  


> Power and Simplicity With a powerful FPGA engine, plus on board micro-processor, Brooklyn II gives a comprehensive application environment to streamline software integration. Brooklyn II offers its own high-resolution, low jitter clocking, or connects to external clock, and supports industry standard sample rates of 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, and 192kHz.
> Audinate’s acclaimed networking expertise is built into every Brooklyn II module, with a comprehensive toolkit that gives you a vast and varied array of tools, options, and possibilities. Its simple software development environment gives you maximum flexibility for custom functionality and control.
> 
> 
> ...


 


> Sample Rates44.1 / 48/88.2 / 96 / 176.4 / 192kHzAudio Channels In/Out (44.1/48kHz)Up to 64x64 channelsAudio Channels In/Out (88.2/96kHz) Up to 32x32 channelsAudio Channels In/Out (176.4/192kHz)Up to 16x16 channelsAudio Flows In/Out             Up to 32x32 simultaneous streamsDigital Audio Format TDM, I2SSample Bit Depth16, 24 or 32 bits per sampleAudio Buffering Up to 2000 samples per channelClocking Onboard word clock or external word clockForm Factor Card edge module. 4.5cm x 6cm (1.75” x 2.4”)FPGA High performance Xilinx Spartan6 FPGAMicroprocessor Soft-core Microblaze processorClock High quality, low jitter onboard SiLabsEthernet Standard RGMII/MII interface for Ethernet PHY or switch chipPower3.3VDC @ 2W maxPhysical Connector Mini-PCIControl Interfaces SPI Master and Slave; GPIO; I2CNetwork RGMII/MII


 
 3.3VDC power 2W max.
  
 Maybe @abartels could rig a RPi to act as an interface to the BK2 card for SPDIF out.


----------



## ciphercomplete

jabbr said:


> A shame I will need to buy a new 2-port NIC to try though.
> 
> Cheers


 
  
 A 2 port isn't necessary if you have a extra 1 port laying around.  You can configure windows to use both the motherboard input and a 1 port nic card in tandem.  There are lots of guides for this online.  But, a 2 port nic is the easiest way.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> You mean 192k?



No I mean 176.4kHz as that is a whole divider for the DSD sample rates, the 48kHz range with 192kHz isn't.

DOP uses a 24-bit word at 176.4 kHz which contains 16 bits data and 8 bits for a dsd-marker.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Yes, give or take 0.5
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 "And the result was that I could not bear to listen to 96kHz on Foobar."  - You need a better AOIP solution...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Give SoX a try at 192k - it's free.
  
 But hey if you are married to MQN or HQplayer - or Roon - and abolutely hate ASIO - think it sounds like a AM radio in a fish tank - I can't help you.


----------



## wushuliu

jabbr said:


> Yes, give or take 0.5
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Have you tried the Xmos ASIO? For Jplay the Xmos ASIO is better than KS and sounds great (but not quite as good) for Foobar... I think the F-1 is optimized for the ASIO.


----------



## rb2013

Oh and before I see the post - no DANTE does not do DSD 512 or 784k PCM.  If that is a must - then this is not for you.


----------



## wushuliu

rb2013 said:


> Yes it would be a simple board - no DAC or ADC function.  Just taking the BK2 card and feeding it DC power and outputing SPDIF and/or AES.
> 
> The new Dante Brooklyn II card has the processor built in:
> https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-brooklyn-ii
> ...


 
  
 Awesome, so a simple 5vdc and we're good to go...


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> No I mean 176.4kHz as that is a whole divider for the DSD sample rates, the 48kHz range with 192kHz isn't.
> 
> DOP uses a 24-bit word at 176.4 kHz which contains 16 bits data and 8 bits for a dsd-marker.


 

 Just upsample to 192k or get the $1600 D16.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Have you tried the Xmos ASIO? For Jplay the Xmos ASIO is better than KS and sounds great (but not quite as good) for Foobar... I think the F-1 is optimized for the ASIO.


 

 +1 on my systems.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> "And the result was that I could not bear to listen to 96kHz on Foobar."  - You need a better AOIP solution...:wink_face:
> 
> Give SoX a try at 192k - it's free.
> 
> But hey if you are married to MQN or HQplayer - or Roon - and abolutely hate ASIO - think it sounds like a AM radio in a fish tank - I can't help you.




I think ASIO in itself does a decent job. The difference between ASIO and KS using the same player is not that big, maybe even a matter of preference.

No, with the development proces of Mqn I have come to realise that SQ greatly improves by making the computer do less and less. Mqn has come incredibly far with this concept. All kinds of extra processes on the PC actually makes the SQ worse. So for true SQ you have to let go of convenience items that activate the CPU.

You only have to try, Mqn is free and easy to use.
I have been through all these developments in digital audio for many years already, and I find only one tops the rest.


----------



## rb2013

First - have to the DANTE REDNET 3 is rock solid - ran all night with a hiccup or lock.  Not to surprising as this is studio level gear and the totl for Focusrite.  Studios can not put up with bauky USB drivers that lockup or crash.
  
 So did some Foobar, DANTE DVS and REDNET Control optimizing last night - gained another 5% improvement in SQ:
  
 So here is what I did - removed the Dither in Foobar Output window - dropped the buffer to 50ms.  Not even a trace of sweat!  With USB this low of a buffer would cause drop outs.
  
 In the DVS dropped the Buffer Latency down to 5ms, increased the Encoding from 24 bits to 32 bits, and increased the Buffer size to 1024.
  
 In REDNET Control - there were no Network events,  Primary Tx B/W: 20Mbps.


----------



## wushuliu

jabbr said:


> I think ASIO in itself does a decent job. The difference between ASIO and KS using the same player is not that big, maybe even a matter of preference.
> 
> No, with the development proces of Mqn I have come to realise that SQ greatly improves by making the computer do less and less. Mqn has come incredibly far with this concept. All kinds of extra processes on the PC actually makes the SQ worse. So for true SQ you have to let go of convenience items that activate the CPU.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have used MQN for a long time, and now have gone back to Jplay for convenience. MQN is **great**, but unless it’s taken some huge leap in the last year, it is not THAT good. Sounds more like you have spent of lot time dialing in your PC to maximize MQN and in order to try something else, may need to reconfigure. Foobar/Jplay with the F-1 Xmos ASIO should sound relatively grain-free, not harsh. I found Foobar to sound flatter in presentation, but not harsh or unlistenable.
  
 IOW, if I had to choose between the F-1/Axmos ASIO/Foobar combo or MQN/KS/something else, I would choose the former. The F-1 does far more for sound quality than any of the software players. Especially with Fidelizer running.


----------



## jabbr

wushuliu said:


> Have you tried the Xmos ASIO? For Jplay the Xmos ASIO is better than KS and sounds great (but not quite as good) for Foobar... I think the F-1 is optimized for the ASIO.




With the coming of JPlay 6 I find the sound much strained, not relaxed. Since then I have stepped away from JPlay.
XMoS ASIO doesn't differ from Thesycon ASIO as I believe the XMOS-driver is a 'small' version of the full Thesycon. I prefer the ability set the USB and ASIO buffer sizes in the full Thesycon driver set, also for the F1.

I don't think hardware favours one driver implementation over another. Maybe the default buffer sizes of the XMOS-driver set are better for ASIO than for USB, but as said I prefer the ability to set them myself.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Just upsample to 192k or get the $1600 D16.




Over here the price difference between a Rednet D16 and a Rednet 3 is just under $200.

And upsampling from the 44.1-range into the 48-range is a very, very bad thing to do.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> I think ASIO in itself does a decent job. The difference between ASIO and KS using the same player is not that big, maybe even a matter of preference.
> 
> No, with the development proces of Mqn I have come to realise that SQ greatly improves by making the computer do less and less. Mqn has come incredibly far with this concept. All kinds of extra processes on the PC actually makes the SQ worse. So for true SQ you have to let go of convenience items that activate the CPU.
> 
> ...


 

 I'm totally good with Foobar and SoX.  Besides if the SQ gets any better I may never leave my sound room:
  
 Like this guy - remember the movie Brainstorm


----------



## jabbr

ciphercomplete said:


> A 2 port isn't necessary if you have a extra 1 port laying around.  You can configure windows to use both the motherboard input and a 1 port nic card in tandem.  There are lots of guides for this online.  But, a 2 port nic is the easiest way.




Yes, you're right of course, need only 1 *extra* port


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> With the coming of JPlay 6 I find the sound much strained, not relaxed. Since then I have stepped away from JPlay.
> XMoS ASIO doesn't differ from Thesycon ASIO as I believe the XMOS-driver is a 'small' version of the full Thesycon. I prefer the ability set the USB and ASIO buffer sizes in the full Thesycon driver set, also for the F1.
> 
> I don't think hardware favours one driver implementation over another. Maybe the default buffer sizes of the XMOS-driver set are better for ASIO than for USB, but as said I prefer the ability to set them myself.


 

 You'll love the Dante Virtual Sound card - let's you set latency and buffer size.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Over here the price difference between a Rednet D16 and a Rednet 3 is just under $200.
> 
> And upsampling from the 44.1-range into the 48-range is a very, very bad thing to do.


 

 Well not a very, very bad thing to do - but I would prefer to do it on theoretical grounds.  When I did my big LP digitization project a few years ago - I rolled through a half dozen ProAudio ADC's - settling on the EMU1616-M with the 32 bit AKM ADCs.  Then spent a month trying different sampling rates using Steinberg's  WaveLab 6.0.  The best SQ wise was 176k not 192k.  The difference was barely noticeable -like 1-2%.  Not like the 10% from 96k to 176k or 192k.  So that is what I used at 32 bits.  Got to within 90% of the actually vinyl spinning.
 Each album generated a 3-5GB file size.
  
 But on playback with my APL DAC - upsampling those 176k/32bit files to 192k sounds best.  Again by a very small margin - over not using any upsampling at all.  So that is what I listen with.  Did the same for my RedBook files and 192k came out the winner.  So for me 192k is perfect.  All theoretics aside.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> You'll love the Dante Virtual Sound card - let's you set latency and buffer size.




Yes probably, but need to think this through how these VSC settings differ from settings of a USB device driver (which is about the direct communication with the hardware) when we now talk of a NIC and not a USB device.

Buffer settings in software players are something different as these do not set driver buffers but are internal player buffers.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Yes probably, but need to think this through how these VSC settings differ from settings of a USB device driver (which is about the direct communication with the hardware) when we now talk of a NIC and not a USB device.
> 
> Buffer settings in software players are something different as these do not set driver buffers but are internal player buffers.


 

 With the RD3 Foobar is humming along at 50ms - it's lowest setting available.  Sounding great - not a single unlock in 12 hours continous playing.  No USB, even the mighty F-1 could do that - remember running at 192k output.


----------



## jabbr

Just read on computeraudiophile a statement from Mutec employee that MC3+(USB) reclockers cannot reclock DoP (nor native DSD for that matter), but only PCM.
And that's not going to change as it would require a major overhaul.

Bummer.


----------



## seeteeyou

Could MinimServer take care of that by any chance? Mutec should treat each audio stream as a plain vanilla *.WAV file once it's "cloaked" (i.e. encapsulated) by MinimServer


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Just read on computeraudiophile a statement from Mutec employee that MC3+(USB) reclockers cannot reclock DoP (nor native DSD for that matter), but only PCM.
> And that's not going to change as it would require a major overhaul.
> 
> Bummer.


 

 Yes it converts DSD to PCM - since most DAC's can not handle native DSD (not DoP) then that is not an issue.
  
 But you might like this - AOIP and native DSD:
 http://nadac.merging.com/nadac
  
NETWORK INPUT 
Connector: Neutrik EtherCon RJ45
Bitrate: 1 Gb/s (Gigabit Ethernet only)
Sample rate: 44.1 kHz – 384 kHz, DSD64, DSD128 and DSD256
 Ravenna seems to be ahead in the Higher Res PCM and DSD department


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> With the RD3 Foobar is humming along at 50ms - it's lowest setting available.  Sounding great - not a single unlock in 12 hours continous playing.  No USB, even the mighty F-1 could do that - remember running at 192k output.



I now run my F1 with 2ms USB buffer equal to my 2ms NTTimerResolution (prefer the 2ms to the much applauded 1ms (faster = better, yeah, not))
Have the ASIO driver buffer on auto.

The 50ms in Foobar is a software buffer and not the driver buffer. It is a buffering in software before it gets sent out to the driver.
Running the F1 with ASIO buffer = AUTO sets the actual ASIO buffer to 576 samples on my system when playing 192kHz.
Manually set ASIO-driver buffer for the F1 requires at leas 512 samples at 192kHz (2.66 ms) to play faultless. Probably due to the NTTimerResolution of 2ms on my system.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> I now run my F1 with 2ms USB buffer equal to my 2ms NTTimerResolution (prefer the 2ms to the much applauded 1ms (faster = better, yeah, not))
> Have the ASIO driver buffer on auto.
> 
> The 50ms in Foobar is a software buffer and not the driver buffer. It is a buffering in software before it gets sent out to the driver.
> ...


 

 Yes my DVS ASIO (software emulating hardware) is running at 4ms without breaking a sweat on 192k.  The REDNET 3 LAN is running at 250us - that is 0.25ms.  So with their PCIe DANTE card instead of DVS - sub millisecond latency easily possible.


----------



## jabbr

seeteeyou said:


> Could MinimServer take care of that by any chance? Mutec should treat each audio stream as a plain vanilla *.WAV file once it's "cloaked" (i.e. encapsulated) by MinimServer




The DoP is not exactly the same as a 176.4 PCM. The content of the DSD marker does not comply with PCM-standards. It seems to me that MC3+ recreates the PCM frames and only does so for true PCM frames and not for DOP frames.

Transcoding to DOP (or not) is not related to this issue.




rb2013 said:


> Yes it converts DSD to PCM - since most DAC's can not handle native DSD (not DoP) then that is not an issue.
> 
> But you might like this - AOIP and native DSD:
> http://nadac.merging.com/nadac
> ...




It is only the MC3+*USB* that does DOP to PCM conversion, not the original MC3+ (without the USB) which I have in my office system.

Yes Ravenna is way ahead regarding support of DSD and higher sample rates. The Brooklyn 2 though has a programmable operating system onboard so they should be able to add additional sample rates / formats if the processor can handle it.

Yes, I have seen the Merging DAC. A bit to expensive to my taste though and not easy to get for trying out at home.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> The DoP is not exactly the same as a 176.4 PCM. The content of the DSD marker does not comply with PCM-standards. It seems to me that MC3+ recreates the PCM frames and only does so for true PCM frames and not for DOP frames.
> 
> Transcoding to DOP (or not) is not related to this issue.
> It is only the MC3+*USB* that does DOP to PCM conversion, not the original MC3+ (without the USB) which I have in my office system.
> ...


 

 Yes it is expensive - but half the price of the totl MSB- and that only gives you DNLA/UpNP ethernet module.  MSB needs to build in Raveena AES67.  Or at least offer it as a add-on module.
  
 As with all things tech - trickle down will occur.  Hence this sea change we are calling happening (very, very early stages now) from USB to AOIP.


----------



## jabbr

BTW have you seen the announcement of Mutec's Ref10 Master Clock: http://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/Ref10_InfoSheet_2014_E.pdf?PHPSESSID

It has been on the drawing board since 2014, but apparently its release is near.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> BTW have you seen the announcement of Mutec's Ref10 Master Clock: http://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/Ref10_InfoSheet_2014_E.pdf?PHPSESSID
> 
> It has been on the drawing board since 2014, but apparently its release is near.


 

 Nice!  112db at 1Hz, 140db at 10 Hz - that's incredibly low phase noise.  Bet that won't be cheap.
  
 Funny how the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock with it's 1G clock when fed to the REDNET3 ext word clock on a BJC 12inch BNC to BNC cable, actually degraded the sound, in comparison to the RD3's internal clock and JetPLL circuit.


----------



## Albrecht

> Yes it converts DSD to PCM - since most DAC's can not handle native DSD (not DoP) then that is not an issue.
> But you might like this - AOIP and native DSD:
> http://nadac.merging.com/nadac


 
  
 From what I hear, - this device isn't the best SQ representation of what's to come. Of course, - the proof is in the listening....
  
 I am curious as to how long it will take someone like PSAudio to incorporate Dante into their BridgeII, - which has, - (at least the appearance of), a standard NIC.
  
 Awesome to read your reports on the RedNet3.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> The D16 has the Brooklyn 2 card right?  What do think is is the major sonic difference from the Brooklyn 1 card?  They seem to have the same clocks.  I know the BK2 can do 44, 48, 88, 96, 176k, and 192k - and the BK 1 does 44, 48, 88, 96 and 193.  So the missing frequency for the BK1 is 176k.
> 
> This no issue for me - as I upsample all data to 192k in Foobar using the SoX upsampler.


 
  
 Yes, it has the Brooklyn II. I'm not sure what other differences there are between the I and II. I haven't been able to find any comparisons.
  
 My primary reasons for going with the D16 vs the 3 were the form factor and the built-in AES I/O. It also helped that I found a demo unit at a great price.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> From what I hear, - this device isn't the best SQ representation of what's to come. Of course, - the proof is in the listening....
> 
> I am curious as to how long it will take someone like PSAudio to incorporate Dante into their BridgeII, - which has, - (at least the appearance of), a standard NIC.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes another prime candidate to incorporate AES67 - but with their DSD focus better Ravenna.

 This AOIP is on the verge of busting out - finally.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Yes, it has the Brooklyn II. I'm not sure what other differences there are between the I and II. I haven't been able to find any comparisons.
> 
> My primary reasons for going with the D16 vs the 3 were the form factor and the built-in AES I/O. It also helped that I found a demo unit at a great price.


 

 Got to love that Demo pricing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Have you tried the internal clock D16 vs the Dangerous DAC as word clock?


----------



## mhamel

wushuliu said:


> Burl would need to add a power supply to a custom Brooklyn card, correct? We're talking a standalone unit, not some kind of add-on? Hopefully that should still be doable <$500... I'm going to hold off on a getting a rednet until I hear more about a smaller option.


 
  
 I don't think you're going to see a small standalone unit anytime in the immediate future, and a used Rednet 3 is probably going to be less expensive either way.


----------



## juanitox

question , how the rednet is seen by the computer ?  with mac OS X is it seen as a core audio device like any usb device ?   can we use ROON , HQPLAYER or auydirvanna with it ?


----------



## roger7

jabbr said:


> Yes, you're right of course, need only 1 *extra* port


 
  
 Why extra ethernet port? Can't you use the one you already have in your computer?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

If you're not using it for internet, sure! With the isolation via Ethernet on the rednet, the wifi shouldn't have an issue with noisy-ing up the audio signal if you switch to that over plugging in (for internet).



roger7 said:


> Why extra ethernet port? Can't you use the one you already have in your computer?


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Well not a very, very bad thing to do - but I would prefer to do it on theoretical grounds.  When I did my big LP digitization project a few years ago - I rolled through a half dozen ProAudio ADC's - settling on the EMU1616-M with the 32 bit AKM ADCs.  Then spent a month trying different sampling rates using Steinberg's  WaveLab 6.0.  The best SQ wise was 176k not 192k.  The difference was barely noticeable -like 1-2%.  Not like the 10% from 96k to 176k or 192k.  So that is what I used at 32 bits.  Got to within 90% of the actually vinyl spinning.
> Each album generated a 3-5GB file size.
> 
> But on playback with my APL DAC - upsampling those 176k/32bit files to 192k sounds best.  Again by a very small margin - over not using any upsampling at all.  So that is what I listen with.  Did the same for my RedBook files and 192k came out the winner.  So for me 192k is perfect.  All theoretics aside.


 
  
 Is your DAC capable of 32 bit PCM or you downsample to 24 bit in foobar?


----------



## roger7

rb2013 said:


> Yes it converts DSD to PCM - since most DAC's can not handle native DSD (not DoP) then that is not an issue.
> 
> But you might like this - AOIP and native DSD:
> http://nadac.merging.com/nadac
> ...


 
  
 Speaking of Rednet and DSD/DoP...Is Rednet capable of DSD/DoP or it's the SPDIF output that limits it?


----------



## jabbr

roger7 said:


> Why extra ethernet port? Can't you use the one you already have in your computer?




The PC needs one port to connect to the Rednet and another one to connect to my LAN to which my NAS is connected and where my music is stored.

I could of course also connect the PC and the RedNet to a nearby switch. In that case I would only need a single port.
I had in mind though to connect the Rednet to the PC directly.


----------



## roger7

soundsgoodtome said:


> If you're not using it for internet, sure! With the isolation via Ethernet on the rednet, the wifi shouldn't have an issue with noisy-ing up the audio signal if you switch to that over plugging in (for internet).


 
  
 So it isn't possible to use one port for VDS and internet simultaneously?


----------



## roger7

jabbr said:


> The PC needs one port to connect to the Rednet and another one to connect to my LAN to which my NAS is connected and where my music is stored.
> 
> I could of course also connect the PC and the RedNet to a nearby switch. In that case I would only need a single port.
> I had in mind though to connect the Rednet to the PC directly.


 
  
 Ok, it's clear now because I read it can connect to network infrastructure with switch etc.


----------



## Muziqboy

Listening to the RD3 w/ the Mutec reclocking it, the sound is very potent. I mean to me, it sounds very true to the source.
  
 The way I would describe the sound is like whatever those microphones in the studio captured during the time of recording is what this combo is able to relay.
 Pure and Unadulterated. It also helps if the rest of your system is transparent and resolving enough to reveal it.
 Very very hard for me to hang up the headphones and give it a rest.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Got to love that Demo pricing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have. They both use some form of the JetPLL tech. Dangerous claims their implementation has been refined, though I'm not sure what exactly that means.
  
 I found an improvement using the Convert-2's clock as the master vs the D16 internal clock. It wasn't massive, but it was definitely there.
  
 Side note... Dangerous's customer service is absolutely outstanding. I've had some issues with the internal XMOS USB interface losing sync with my source (PC). That's what initially got me looking at a DDC, then the F-1, and in researching that, onto the Dante/RedNet solution. Dangerous hasn't seen this sync issue before, and they've been very engaged trying to diagnose it. Even though I've moved on from USB connectivity, I'd still like to figure out what was causing this and help them as well, in case they run into it again. They sent me an entirely new Convert-2 at their expense just so that I could try it out and make sure it isn't my specific DAC with the issue.


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Is your DAC capable of 32 bit PCM or you downsample to 24 bit in foobar?


 

 DAC does 32 bit - using 6 AKM 32 -bit DACs per channel


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> I have. They both use some form of the JetPLL tech. Dangerous claims their implementation has been refined, though I'm not sure what exactly that means.
> 
> I found an improvement using the Convert-2's clock as the master vs the D16 internal clock. It wasn't massive, but it was definitely there.
> 
> Side note... Dangerous's customer service is absolutely outstanding. I've had some issues with the internal XMOS USB interface losing sync with my source (PC). That's what initially got me looking at a DDC, then the F-1, and in researching that, onto the Dante/RedNet solution. Dangerous hasn't seen this sync issue before, and they've been very engaged trying to diagnose it. Even though I've moved on from USB connectivity, I'd still like to figure out what was causing this and help them as well, in case they run into it again. They sent me an entirely new Convert-2 at their expense just so that I could try it out and make sure it isn't my specific DAC with the issue.


 

 Thanks


----------



## rb2013

roger7 said:


> Speaking of Rednet and DSD/DoP...Is Rednet capable of DSD/DoP or it's the SPDIF output that limits it?


 

 Don't know - I believe 64 DoP should be doable.  I have no interest in it - DSD to PCM converter in Foobar is very good - for the 12 DSD tracks I have from 2L


----------



## jabbr

Has anybody read anything about support for jumbo frames or large MTU lik MTU 9000 packet sizes on the Rednet devices?
Might be another reason to keep the device of my LAN and on a seperate NIc-port on the PC


----------



## mourip

jabbr said:


> Yes, you're right of course, need only 1 *extra* port


 
  
 OK. So I missed something along the way.
  
 Using REDnet on the PC you need two ethernet ports if you wan the PC to also be on a LAN? One dedicated to communicating with the REDnet device and one for Internet or remote control?
  
 Can the PC not use one port for both REDnet traffic and LAN traffic?
  
 Thanks!
  
 EDIT: Read farther along and found my answer. Thanks...


----------



## KEGGER

Just for info,
  
 I called and talked to tech at Focusrite,
 Very friendly and understanding conversation, but basically said felt the majority of cost to the Rednet 3 was the Dante implementation,
 An that scaling it down felt it would still probably have to be 3/4 the cost of a Rednet 3, but would pass it up the chain to check thoughts.
  
 Said that basically spdif output was a cheap and easy implementation though and not a very significant cost.
 (meaning that something using the proper Dante for 192k that didn't have spdif could be done easy enough)
  
 ---------
  
 Also talked to Audinate and "they didn't know" of anyone else implementing spdif with Dante Ethernet. FWIW


----------



## ciphercomplete

It doesnt matter anyway. We all know the "audiophile" 2 channel version built by some other company will be $5000+.

I have not decided if I want the Rednet 3 or D16. I might have only one 176.4 album but i like the D16 form factor and the simple AES connection.


----------



## manishex

Whats the difference between Teradak dc-30W and the x1/x2?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/TeraDak-TeraLink-X1-X2-DC8-5V-1A-USB-DC5V-port-Linear-Power-Supply-/181467993450


----------



## johnjen

muziqboy said:


> Listening to the RD3 w/ the Mutec reclocking it, the sound is very potent. I mean to me, it sounds very true to the source.
> 
> The way I would describe the sound is like whatever those microphones in the studio captured during the time of recording is what this combo is able to relay.
> Pure and Unadulterated. It also helps if the rest of your system is transparent and resolving enough to reveal it.
> Very very hard for me to hang up the headphones and give it a rest.


 
 Ah…
  
 The Superglue Syndrome!
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> Ah…
> 
> The Superglue Syndrome!
> 
> JJ


 

 YUP!


----------



## somestranger26

manishex said:


> Whats the difference between Teradak dc-30W and the x1/x2?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TeraDak-TeraLink-X1-X2-DC8-5V-1A-USB-DC5V-port-Linear-Power-Supply-/181467993450


 

 DC-30W has better parts including an R-core transformer. Its voltage is also adjustable (I don't know if the X1 is adjustable). I am using one with USB Regen + F1 and it sounds excellent.


----------



## wushuliu

Hm, I just noticed on the F-1 two points that say +5v and gnd (underneath the board). Wonder what that means?


----------



## mtoc

are MC-3+ USB and M2Tech Evo both based on xmos?


----------



## bButcher

wushuliu said:


> Hm, I just noticed on the F-1 two points that say +5v and gnd (underneath the board). Wonder what that means?


 
  
 The power stages of F-1 is:
  
 [1] USB (5V), power XMOS --> [2] U16 (Mornsun B0505S-1WR2)(Isolated 5V) --> [3] U18 (LDO; 3.3V), power Xlinx & oscillators (CCHD-575)
  
 +5v and gnd connected to output of Mornsun;
 From the spec of Mornsun (4.5V~5.5V; Max ripple & noise 100mVpp; Switching at 100kHz), it actually is worse than 5V from USB; So it could be the weakest point of F-1 design.
 From information of SU-1, SingXer upgrade it to a separate linear supply for 3.3V which use a low noise ADI LDO. How much this will influence the SQ of F-1, guess we have to wait till someone post a comparison between F-1 and SU-1.
  
 Anyway, there are two possible mods to potentially improve the SQ,
 (A) Remove U16 (Mornsun B0505S), and connect a better 5V source to the two through-holes you point to.
 (B) or better, if you have a clean 3.3V power, remove U16 & U18, then connect the clean 3.3V directly to pin 17,19 of the 20 pin I2S connector


----------



## bButcher

wushuliu said:


> Hm, I just noticed on the F-1 two points that say +5v and gnd (underneath the board). Wonder what that means?


 
 From the picture, look like you connect 3.3V (pin 17) to your DAC, it's kind of weird since in most case you only connect GND, and signals (MCLK, LRCK, BCLK, DATA, etc.)


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> Yes - the ICRON and the Startech are the same thing (ICRON makes it for Startech).  Be sure it is the GB LAN version that does iso audio.
> 
> Yes a major improvement to the F-1.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This looks very similar in principle to something like the microRendu, or any other sort of endpoint, where audio is first processed and then the results are streamed over a network to a device on the other end. One key difference looks like this can work with a 'local' player using Foobar, for example, whereas the microRendu needs to work with some sort of streaming solution.
  
 But I wonder which solution sounds better- does it just come down then to which is better designed for audio? (low noise, voltage regulation, etc etc


----------



## wushuliu

bbutcher said:


> The power stages of F-1 is:
> 
> [1] USB (5V), power XMOS --> [2] U16 (Mornsun B0505S-1WR2)(Isolated 5V) --> [3] U18 (LDO; 3.3V), power Xlinx & oscillators (CCHD-575)
> 
> ...


 
  
 deleted


----------



## wushuliu

bbutcher said:


> From the picture, look like you connect 3.3V (pin 17) to your DAC, it's kind of weird since in most case you only connect GND, and signals (MCLK, LRCK, BCLK, DATA, etc.)


 
 I thought the 3.3v pins there were for 3.3v output... I guess I need to remove those?


----------



## bButcher

wushuliu said:


> I thought the 3.3v pins there were for 3.3v output... I guess I need to remove those?


 

 Yes it is 3.3v output from F-1, but your DAC should also have a 3.3v (output), if you connect both together, in the worst case you might damage one end or both.


----------



## manishex

somestranger26 said:


> DC-30W has better parts including an R-core transformer. Its voltage is also adjustable (I don't know if the X1 is adjustable). I am using one with USB Regen + F1 and it sounds excellent.


 
 How differently of an implementation is it to the SU-1? Is the SU-1 inherently inferior?


----------



## somestranger26

manishex said:


> How differently of an implementation is it to the SU-1? Is the SU-1 inherently inferior?


 

 If SU-1 bypasses that isolating capacitor then SU-1 is probably better regardless of the quality of the LPS you feed it with.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> OK. So I missed something along the way.
> 
> Using REDnet on the PC you need two ethernet ports if you wan the PC to also be on a LAN? One dedicated to communicating with the REDnet device and one for Internet or remote control?
> 
> ...


 

 Or just both on one LAN with a CB switch.  A 2 port NIC seems cheaper and easier.


----------



## rb2013

kegger said:


> Just for info,
> 
> I called and talked to tech at Focusrite,
> Very friendly and understanding conversation, but basically said felt the majority of cost to the Rednet 3 was the Dante implementation,
> ...


 

 Cool - thanks for doing that.  You may have just planted the bug in their ear.  But $750 for that  - when BURL sells a Brooklyn II DANTE board for $250 retail.


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> This looks very similar in principle to something like the microRendu, or any other sort of endpoint, where audio is first processed and then the results are streamed over a network to a device on the other end. One key difference looks like this can work with a 'local' player using Foobar, for example, whereas the microRendu needs to work with some sort of streaming solution.
> 
> But I wonder which solution sounds better- does it just come down then to which is better designed for audio? (low noise, voltage regulation, etc etc


 

 Yes in a way they are both Ethernet LAN designed but with a USB endpoint.  I think that Uptone incorporated some of the Regen technology into the microRendu - I assume to better the USB performance.  I also assume the DNLA/UpNP Eithernet that the MircoRendu uses offers galvanic isolation like the ICRON.
  
 The biggest differences are open play for the ICRON/Startech and that is a big one - and doing away with DNLA/UpNP and the issues it has across LAN switches.
  
 Now as far as SQ - I don't and won't have a MicroRendu to try.  The move completely away from USB to ASE67 LAN Eithernet has been eye opening.


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> Yes in a way they are both Ethernet LAN designed but with a USB endpoint.  I think that Uptone incorporated some of the Regen technology into the microRendu - I assume to better the USB performance.  I also assume the DNLA/UpNP Eithernet that the MircoRendu uses offers galvanic isolation like the ICRON.
> 
> The biggest differences are open play for the ICRON/Startech and that is a big one - and doing away with DNLA/UpNP and the issues it has across LAN switches.
> 
> Now as far as SQ - I don't and won't have a MicroRendu to try.  The move completely away from USB to ASE67 LAN Eithernet has been eye opening.


 
 I am also going to move away from USB- a microRendu with an AES endpoint rather than USB, for example, would be perfect for me. But since that doesn't exist, with the microRendu I still have to use a converter like the Mutec or something similar to go USB -> AES/ SPDIF.
  
 Is there any other solution out there that does this today? Ethernet -> AES/ SPDIF.


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> I am also going to move away from USB- a microRendu with an AES endpoint rather than USB, for example, would be perfect for me. But since that doesn't exist, with the microRendu I still have to use a converter like the Mutec or something similar to go USB -> AES/ SPDIF.
> 
> Is there any other solution out there that does this today? Ethernet -> AES/ SPDIF.


 
 Well yes the Sonore Signature does 192k SPDIF - $2895.  http://rendu.sonore.us/signature-series-rendu.html
  
 But it using DNLA/UpNP that many designers have criticized...


----------



## motberg

jelt2359 said:


> I am also going to move away from USB- a microRendu with an AES endpoint rather than USB, for example, would be perfect for me. But since that doesn't exist, with the microRendu I still have to use a converter like the Mutec or something similar to go USB -> AES/ SPDIF.
> 
> Is there any other solution out there that does this today? Ethernet -> AES/ SPDIF.


 
 Empirical Audio is working on something... seems pretty close to reality and would have a great heritage..
  
 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141373.0


----------



## wushuliu

motberg said:


> Empirical Audio is working on something... seems pretty close to reality and would have a great heritage..
> 
> http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141373.0




The rednet will undoubtedly still be cheaper than an empirical product.


----------



## seeteeyou

AVB switch for $99 (up to 192kHz)
  
 http://www.dsp4you.com/products/avb-oem-series/avb-sw
 http://www.dsp4you.com/downloads/Product%20Brief%20-%20AVB-SW.pdf
  
  
 AVB DDC (Toslink + coaxial S/PDIF outputs @ 192kHz) for $299
  
 https://www.xmos.com/buy?product=18334
 https://www.xmos.com/support/boards?product=18334
  
  
 Instructions for OS X
  
 https://www.xmos.com/support/appnotes/AN01032
 https://www.xmos.com/download/private/AN01032%3A-100Mbit-Ethernet-AVB-endpoint-example-using-I2S-master%281.0.1rc1%29.pdf


----------



## motberg

wushuliu said:


> The rednet will undoubtedly still be cheaper than an empirical product.


 

 Yep.... but no i2S...
  
 Edit: wooops, sorry irrelevant as the question was for AES/SPDIF...
 (I think the RedNet software protocol though is a big factor in the reported SQ anyways...)


----------



## jabbr

seeteeyou said:


> AVB switch for $99 (up to 192kHz)
> 
> http://www.dsp4you.com/products/avb-oem-series/avb-sw
> http://www.dsp4you.com/downloads/Product%20Brief%20-%20AVB-SW.pdf
> ...


 
  
 I would stay away from AVB for the coming 10 years or so, as it cannot operate on regular switches and requires purpose built switches that neigh on unavailable yet.
 Also the professional audio industry is not yet ready by a long shot to even try ou this new AVB.
  
 It is all about Dante, there is interest in Ravenna and the early adoptors are still on CobraNet.
  
 Check this out: http://www.rhconsulting.eu/blog/files/bf8bd89f4110436e26a734ff443aa742-17.html
  
  


> Dante now has 275 manufacturers signed up, RAVENNA 45 and AVnu 23 down from a peak of 29.
> 
> 
> Count of products
> ...


 
  
 IMO, for now the best bet would be on Dante (and/or keep an eye on Ravenna) and wait the coming 10 years to see how the AVB is catching on.
  
 cheers


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> A little update on the Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB:
> 
> Well with some help I got it working as a SPDIF reclocker last night.  Very sweet indeed.
> 
> Obviously better then the W4S Remedy - not $500 better - but noticible.


 
 Have you tried the Remedy to reclock the output from the Rednet 3? Do you think it's a worthwhile upgrade?
  
 With this whole 75% thing I may just pull the trigger on a Rednet 3 and sell off my USB chain. If the Remedy is worth it, then I could keep the DC30W power supply to use with that, instead of selling everything.


----------



## mourip

somestranger26 said:


> Have you tried the Remedy to reclock the output from the Rednet 3? Do you think it's a worthwhile upgrade?
> 
> With this whole 75% thing I may just pull the trigger on a Rednet 3 and sell off my USB chain. If the Remedy is worth it, then I could keep the DC30W power supply to use with that, instead of selling everything.


 
  
 75% thing? I can only find units for $999 for the RN 3. I looked for a demo but found none. Snapped up by lucky audiophiles?
  


wushuliu said:


> The rednet will undoubtedly still be cheaper than an empirical product.


 
  
 +1. Empirical products always have seemed overpriced relative to products of comparable SQ and features.


----------



## ciphercomplete

somestranger26 said:


> Have you tried the Remedy to reclock the output from the Rednet 3? Do you think it's a worthwhile upgrade?
> 
> With this whole 75% thing I may just pull the trigger on a Rednet 3 and sell off my USB chain. If the Remedy is worth it, then I could keep the DC30W power supply to use with that, instead of selling everything.




I have a Rednet D16 on the way this week. Ill post my thoughts if it will help. I think that will make 4 of us to make the move to the Rednet.


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Empirical Audio is working on something... seems pretty close to reality and would have a great heritage..
> 
> http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141373.0


 

 Oh - this is getting interesting!
  


> My new interface module for wired Ethernet, "Interchange" is finally working.  It gives me Ethernet input and S/PDIF, AES, and I2S output.  I will be comparing it to my partially working XMOS Off-Ramp 6 interface today.  Right off the bat, it seems to sound very good and works at all sample rates.  I am using Jriver so far.


 
  
 King USB is dead - long live King AOIP!


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> The rednet will undoubtedly still be cheaper than an empirical product.


 

 You probably right his Offramp 5 basic model cost $1300 - add in better clocks and spdif upgrade, power supply upgrade - over $3000


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> AVB switch for $99 (up to 192kHz)
> 
> http://www.dsp4you.com/products/avb-oem-series/avb-sw
> http://www.dsp4you.com/downloads/Product%20Brief%20-%20AVB-SW.pdf
> ...


 

 I see it only comes with a USB Class 2.0 driver - does AVB have a Windows like driver that shows up as a ASIO - like DANTE/


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> I would stay away from AVB for the coming 10 years or so, as it cannot operate on regular switches and requires purpose built switches that neigh on unavailable yet.
> Also the professional audio industry is not yet ready by a long shot to even try ou this new AVB.
> 
> It is all about Dante, there is interest in Ravenna and the early adoptors are still on CobraNet.
> ...


 

 Great info!  This thread is amazing.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> Have you tried the Remedy to reclock the output from the Rednet 3? Do you think it's a worthwhile upgrade?
> 
> With this whole 75% thing I may just pull the trigger on a Rednet 3 and sell off my USB chain. If the Remedy is worth it, then I could keep the DC30W power supply to use with that, instead of selling everything.


 

 No not really - the Remedy resamples (either up or down) to 24/96k.  Good for my modded R2R PCM1704 DC60 - as that's it's limit.  But on my APL DAC it actually degraded the SQ.  It's also not bit perfect - as it uses ASRC to resample.
  
 I happened to get one used for $250.  They sell new for $400 - better to spend more and get a Mutec 3+ non-USB.  If you want to reclock - trust me the REDNET 3 alone is massively good.  The incremental improvement with the Mutec as reclocker - is a tough nut to swallow.


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> Oh - this is getting interesting!
> 
> 
> King USB is dead - long live King AOIP!


 
  Buzz Kill...
 Quote:


> Quote from: R-A-W on 11 Mar 2016, 09:03 am
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## seeteeyou

rb2013 said:


> I see it only comes with a USB Class 2.0 driver - does AVB have a Windows like driver that shows up as a ASIO - like DANTE/


 
  




  
 I managed to "steal" this file from this link without even purchasing that $800 card for AVB since it's sold out already
  
 http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/2355/files/SetupStreamware_2.1.18.exe
  
  
 Of course this is the next step and that's it for now, no AVB toy(s) for testing with foobar2000
  





 
  
  
 I did find someone who's got access to $299 XK-AUDIO-216-MC-AB and here's his e-mail address
  
 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.audio.musicpd.devel/2487
  
 He actually wrote some patches to enable multi-channel DSD via USB of XK-AUDIO-216-MC-AB, maybe it's a piece of cake for Jurgen to cook something up for AVB?

 https://www.xcore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23148#p23148
  
 This is what he did for MPD
  
 http://slimnet.home.xs4all.nl/mytek/
  
  
 Caleb also got one for a few months
  
 https://sourceforge.net/p/open-avb/mailman/message/34821272/
  
 His e-mail address could be found in the middle of this page
  
 https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/4/25/777


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> No not really - the Remedy resamples (either up or down) to 24/96k.  Good for my modded R2R PCM1704 DC60 - as that's it's limit.  But on my APL DAC it actually degraded the SQ.  It's also not bit perfect - as it uses ASRC to resample.
> 
> I happened to get one used for $250.  They sell new for $400 - better to spend more and get a Mutec 3+ non-USB.  If you want to reclock - trust me the REDNET 3 alone is massively good.  The incremental improvement with the Mutec as reclocker - is a tough nut to swallow.


 
  
 Ok good to know. I didn't realize it did SRC. I added the SoX resampler DSP to my Foobar and I think overall it's an improvement to the SQ. I am usually one to avoid touching the bits as much as possible.
  
 Another thought - are you using one of your graphene extreme power cables with the rednet, and do you think it makes a worthwhile difference?
  


rb2013 said:


> Oh - this is getting interesting!
> 
> 
> King USB is dead - long live King AOIP!


 
  
  
 How far did you read? He made a post stating that the SQ was at the same level as the offramp (USB) and it uses DLNA so don't get your hopes up. I don't think it will be a night and day difference like you are claiming with the Rednet dante devices. I really hope you are right about these... I'm going to buy one right after my credit card statement comes out so I have an extra month to sell off my USB chain to pay for it.
  


mourip said:


> 75% thing? I can only find units for $999 for the RN 3. I looked for a demo but found none. Snapped up by lucky audiophiles?
> 
> 
> +1. Empirical products always have seemed overpriced relative to products of comparable SQ and features.


 
 75% thing is not a discount on the RN3... Focusrite apparently said a chopped down version that doesn't have 32 channels in a massive rackmount box would still cost about 75% of the current $1000 price. So I'm thinking I should just pull the trigger instead of waiting indefinitely to get a slightly cheaper and smaller box. The main thing for me is the size, really... that thing is as big as my DAC.


----------



## mhamel

somestranger26 said:


> Ok good to know. I didn't realize it did SRC. I added the SoX resampler DSP to my Foobar and I think overall it's an improvement to the SQ. I am usually one to avoid touching the bits as much as possible.
> 
> Another thought - are you using one of your graphene extreme power cables with the rednet, and do you think it makes a worthwhile difference?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Don't be afraid to haggle or ask for discounts from the pro audio stores, too. Just because it's $1000 on the Web site doesn't necessarily mean that's what you'll pay if you push for a discount. While some brands are really hard core about sticking to the mfg. pricing, others can be had for lower prices pretty easily.


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> I managed to "steal" this file from this link without even purchasing that $800 card for AVB since it's sold out already
> 
> http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/2355/files/SetupStreamware_2.1.18.exe
> 
> ...


 
 So the AVB ASIO Streamware won't map channels?  Do you need a device to be connected?
  
 The Focusrite REDNET Controller and Dante DVS - are ver sophisicated - I believe it's Controller that does a PC seek to look for Ethernet connections then sets up DVS to port to them - with some very fine tuning (like latency, Clocking and buffer settings)


----------



## somestranger26

mhamel said:


> Don't be afraid to haggle or ask for discounts from the pro audio stores, too. Just because it's $1000 on the Web site doesn't necessarily mean that's what you'll pay if you push for a discount. While some brands are really hard core about sticking to the mfg. pricing, others can be had for lower prices pretty easily.


 
 Any tips on this like what stores might be willing to haggle? What do you think the price could be negotiated to - $800? $900? Thanks.


----------



## mhamel

somestranger26 said:


> Any tips on this like what stores might be willing to haggle? What do you think the price could be negotiated to - $800? $900? Thanks.


 
  
 I'll send you a PM.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> Ok good to know. I didn't realize it did SRC. I added the SoX resampler DSP to my Foobar and I think overall it's an improvement to the SQ. I am usually one to avoid touching the bits as much as possible.
> 
> Another thought - are you using one of your graphene extreme power cables with the rednet, and do you think it makes a worthwhile difference?


 
 Yes I like SoX alot.  Try the alaising on and off.   Funny even though the Remedy downsamples to 96k - it will accept 192k - and sounds better fed that way.
  
 Yes on the Gaphene Extreme Power cable - it's the best I have owned.  And that's many.
  
 AC power chain to the RD3:
 TeslaPlexscocket>Audience Rp1>Art Audio PB4X4Pro>Cerious PC>RD3.
  
 The Art Audio PB4X4Pro is a AC line isolator and filter  - so I have separate ones for the RD3, DAC and PC.


----------



## seeteeyou

rb2013 said:


> So the AVB ASIO Streamware won't map channels?  Do you need a device to be connected?
> 
> The Focusrite REDNET Controller and Dante DVS - are ver sophisicated - I believe it's Controller that does a PC seek to look for Ethernet connections then sets up DVS to port to them - with some very fine tuning (like latency, Clocking and buffer settings)


 
  
 I wasn't even installing the whole package, just manually registering *ASIOEchoAVB.dll* myself without any ASIO-enabled devices hooked up to my PC.
  
 For a few hundred bucks / $999 full retail, it better be sophisticated.
  
  
 Let's see - $39 for an AVB card from Intel / $99 an for AVB switch / $299 for an AVB DDC from XMOS, is that such a big deal for Singxer to "take the risk" or what?


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> I wasn't even installing the whole package, just manually registering *ASIOEchoAVB.dll* myself without any ASIO-enabled devices hooked up to my PC.
> 
> For a few hundred bucks / $999 full retail, it better be sophisticated.
> 
> ...


 

 I paid $800 - and it replaced $1200 worth of USB gear - and the SQ was in a whole other league.  Took 15 minutes to set-up.  Does get any easier or better then that.
  
 I'd love to see Singxer go for it!  Throw out that nasty clock and use some CCHD-575s.  That would be sweet.


----------



## mtoc

Could we use an excellent linear PSU for Rednet? How is it after linearing?


----------



## Jerryfan

mtoc said:


> Could we use an excellent linear PSU for Rednet? How is it after linearing?


No


----------



## rb2013

mtoc said:


> Could we use an excellent linear PSU for Rednet? How is it after linearing?


 

 That would require a major mod project.  But could be done - like on the Mutec 3+ and many there have said the result was very good.  But I won't touch mine.
  
 Hoping for some kind of a DC powered BK2 box down the road.
  
 Here is the Mutec mod:


----------



## wushuliu

bbutcher said:


> The power stages of F-1 is:
> 
> [1] USB (5V), power XMOS --> [2] U16 (Mornsun B0505S-1WR2)(Isolated 5V) --> [3] U18 (LDO; 3.3V), power Xlinx & oscillators (CCHD-575)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Btw, do you have access to a schematic? I haven't seen one...


----------



## bButcher

No I don't have schematic.
 I check documents of major components (especially those doing isolation: 2 x TI's ISO7641, 5 x Toshiba's TLP291 & Mornsun's B0505S) and measure with a multimeter, sort of reverse engineering, not the entire board, only those parts I'm curious about.


----------



## hopkins

I wonder if a RedNet AM2 could be modded to extract a digital (i2s) signal. Those units retail at 400$


----------



## wushuliu

hopkins said:


> I wonder if a RedNet AM2 could be modded to extract a digital (i2s) signal. Those units retail at 400$


 

 I'm curious how it performs. Not as good at the Rednet 3 I'm sure but maybe a hidden budget dac gem...
  
 I think one of the questions I have is just how much better using a direct ethernet connection by itself (not including reclocking, etc etc) performs over usb etc...


----------



## mhamel

wushuliu said:


> I'm curious how it performs. Not as good at the Rednet 3 I'm sure but maybe a hidden budget dac gem...
> 
> I think one of the questions I have is just how much better using a direct ethernet connection by itself (not including reclocking, etc etc) performs over usb etc...


 
  
 I bet this could be adapted, but it's only 96KHz max.
  
 https://www.k-array.com/en/kdante.html


----------



## Clemmaster

Anyone compared Rednet to a microRendu?


----------



## mhamel

clemmaster said:


> Anyone compared Rednet to a microRendu?


 
  
 I haven't seen anything on that, there are only a few of us that have installed RedNet boxes so far - seems like several more on the way, though.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> I'm curious how it performs. Not as good at the Rednet 3 I'm sure but maybe a hidden budget dac gem...
> 
> I think one of the questions I have is just how much better using a direct ethernet connection by itself (not including reclocking, etc etc) performs over usb etc...


 

 I would be patient - there will be sub-$500 Dante to AES/SPDIF coming - now maybe with the Ultimo chip (96k), hopefully a BK1 or BK2 card.
  
 I bet Focusrite will start to notice a surge in RD3 and RD16d boxes selling.
  
 I left a message with BURL - no call back yet.
  
 They sell the BK2 card- and it looks like it slots into a std PCI-E slot  - so wonder if that would provide a pin out to a spdif connection and power hookup


----------



## atomicbob

Ok, this thread has convinced me to give Dante a try. Possibly the beginning of converting my entire acoustic lab / studio and do away with the large snakes. So a RD16 and MC-3+ are on the way.


----------



## RickyV

Hi all, i have been DIYing a bit.   IT WORKS!!
 The pic below is powering the second small regulator, uwb super regulator from NewClassD.
  


 Its a  temporary formation for now until i finish my music computer.
I am now DIYing a second set like pic 1 and an other super regulator for the lower xmos part of the F1, to keep galvanic isolation.
I was powering the F1 till now with a li-ion powerbank via split usb cable, which sounded real nice already. The lower part is still powered by the powerbank for now until i finish the second set.
 And i can say the sound image is more stable now, better detailed bass and a little sharp edge in the highs is gone. Really nice sound.


----------



## Muziqboy

atomicbob said:


> Ok, this thread has convinced me to give Dante a try. Possibly the beginning of converting my entire acoustic lab / studio and do away with the large snakes. So a RD16 and MC-3+ are on the way.


 
  
 Way to go Bob! I think you are in for a big surprise!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

clemmaster said:


> Anyone compared Rednet to a microRendu?


 

 Well you mean a microRendu+ a USB DDC (say the F-1).  You're still left with having to gizmo out the USB part for top SQ.  So that on top of the $690 for microRendu + PS.  Now you're getting past the cost of a REDNET3.  Of course if you need Roon then one of the better options.


----------



## gldgate

First time poster. Long time lurker. As both an Yggy and Mutec MC-3+ USB owner I've been following this thread since the beginning. I have several USB gadets but have come to the conclusion (like many) that while USB is ubiquitous it sure does not seem to be all that  optimal. Just threw my hat in the AOIP ring with the D16. Really looking forward to it's arrival.


----------



## rb2013

rickyv said:


> Hi all, i have been DIYing a bit.   IT WORKS!!
> The pic below is powering the second small regulator, uwb super regulator from NewClassD.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Nice work!  How were you powering it before -PC USB?


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Way to go Bob! I think you are in for a big surprise!
> 
> Cheers!


 

 King USB is dead, long live King AOIP!


----------



## gldgate

clemmaster said:


> Anyone compared Rednet to a microRendu?


 
  
 I will let you know in about a week. Will get the microRendu on Thursday (ordered it a month ago) and just pulled the trigger on the RedNet D16 today. I am running out of room for gear so winner stays and loser goes up for sale.


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> King USB is dead, long live King AOIP!


 

 @rb2013, @mhamel 
 Guys, what have we started here? lol
 Before we know it, there will be a huge backorder of RedNets! Hahahaha!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## mourip

I probably should have asked this before ordering the D16 but what they heck...
  
 Is anyone running Win2012 on their PC with the Dante virtual sound card?
  
 I have my fingers crossed that their ASIO drivers will work!
  
 Another question. Does getting rid of the USB connection also remove the necessity of all of the OS tweaks like Audiophile Optimizer?


----------



## mourip

muziqboy said:


> @rb2013, @mhamel
> Guys, what have we started here? lol
> Before we know it, there will be a huge backorder of RedNets! Hahahaha!
> 
> Cheers!


 
 When I ordered my D16 today I warned the sales tech that they might see a spike in sales. I also suggested that he check in at HF and CA...
  
 On that note it is odd to me that there is not more activity on CA regarding AES67. Most of the activity regarding ethernet is regarding streaming devices.


----------



## atomicbob

muziqboy said:


> Way to go Bob! I think you are in for a big surprise!
> 
> Cheers!


 
 The thought of doing away with 12+12 channels of analog snakes for mic / line level is rather appealing if I can do it with one or two cat5 cables and the necessary Dante boxes. This will be the toe in the water. Ever carry, roll out, coil up 150 ft of 12 or greater channel audio snake? on the plus side it does provide a lot of exercise.


----------



## Muziqboy

atomicbob said:


> The thought of doing away with 12+12 channels of analog snakes for mic / line level is rather appealing if I can do it with one or two cat5 cables and the necessary Dante boxes. This will be the toe in the water. Ever carry, roll out, coil up 150 ft of 12 or greater channel audio snake? on the plus side it does provide a lot of exercise.


 
  
 Less weight to carry & big SQ gains!
 Can't get any better than that.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Muziqboy

mourip said:


> I probably should have asked this before ordering the D16 but what they heck...
> 
> Is anyone running Win2012 on their PC with the Dante virtual sound card?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm running Win10 without problems and using JRiver MC20 with full functionalities intact. Can't say much about Win2012 as I don't have it.


----------



## occamsrazor

rb2013 said:


> Well you mean a microRendu+ a USB DDC (say the F-1).  You're still left with having to gizmo out the USB part for top SQ.  So that on top of the $690 for microRendu + PS.  Now you're getting past the cost of a REDNET3.  Of course if you need Roon then one of the better options.


 
  
 I would _love_ to see this comparison be made. The microRendu does have some advantages like higher PCM and DSD rates supported, and err... size. As for Roon you should be able to use that via Dante Virtual Soundcard, no?
 While uRendu supports a lot of different streaming protocols, the big advantage of Dante is not being linked to any player's particular protocol... and that is very nice, I hate being locked in.
 While I certainly agree in principle with _"You're still left with having to gizmo out the USB part for top SQ" _... I guess the proof is in the listening, so if anyone does have access to both it would be great to hear.


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> King USB is dead, long live King AOIP!


 
  
 USB ain't got nothin' over AOIP!


----------



## wushuliu

mourip said:


> When I ordered my D16 today I warned the sales tech that they might see a spike in sales. I also suggested that he check in at HF and CA...
> 
> On that note it is odd to me that there is not more activity on CA regarding AES67. Most of the activity regarding ethernet is regarding streaming devices.




CA is very much audiophile retail oriented. Rednet wont be taken seriously there unless reviewed by darko or tas, etc..n


----------



## hopkins

Here is a 600 $ Dante to AES box:
http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o/


----------



## Albrecht

> so if anyone does have access to both it would be great to hear.


 
  

  
 My microRendu feeding into my F-1.
  
 It would be fun to do this comparison, - but I need to recover from all the $$ I spent during the winter/spring, after a MacMini died & a NAS replacement. What would ease things would be RedNet building a little RJ45 to SPDIF box like the F-1. Or the people who built the F-1, building a Dante converter.  Moving off of an LMS implementation would be a bit of a challenge too, as I have 3 other Squeezeboxes running besides the microRendu. Rednet 3 is a pro device, but man, what would happen if they stepped into this arena?


----------



## wushuliu

hopkins said:


> Here is a 600 $ Dante to AES box:
> http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o/


 

Older board and lacks some critical features but u save 400 bucks. I would try it but am tapped after building the soekris.


----------



## mhamel

muziqboy said:


> @rb2013, @mhamel
> Guys, what have we started here? lol
> Before we know it, there will be a huge backorder of RedNets! Hahahaha!
> 
> Cheers!


 
  
 Cheers!
  
 My inner technology geek *needed* to try this after first reading about it and going through all of the Dante overview videos... it appealed to both that and my audiophile hobby.  My ears are extremely glad I did... my wallet, not so much.  Hahaha.
  
     -Mike


----------



## Muziqboy

mhamel said:


> Cheers!
> 
> My inner technology geek *needed* to try this after first reading about it and going through all of the Dante overview videos... it appealed to both that and my audiophile hobby.  My ears are extremely glad I did... my wallet, not so much.  Hahaha.
> 
> -Mike



I hear you there Mike! I'll be eating ramen for the rest of the year. Hahahaha!

Cheers!


----------



## Clemmaster

rb2013 said:


> Well you mean a microRendu+ a USB DDC (say the F-1).  You're still left with having to gizmo out the USB part for top SQ.  So that on top of the $690 for microRendu + PS.  Now you're getting past the cost of a REDNET3.  Of course if you need Roon then one of the better options.




I posted with the intuition that Rednet is superior than anything you've tried so far because it goes around the typical issues with USB: lots of electrical noise (from the PC) and signal conditioning.

The microRendu was designed with these in mind. 
While it might still be a more CPU intensive device than a Audio over IP endpoint (thus, potentially generating more noise on the ground plane), the signal does not go through the SPDif receiver in the DAC, which usually adds more jitter than a modern asynchronous USB implementation.


----------



## mourip

hopkins said:


> Here is a 600 $ Dante to AES box:
> http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o/


 
  
 A nice option for Redbook and up to 24/96kHz. I wonder if it includes a Dante virtual sound card license?
  
 "Supports up to 4 separate Dante audio channels bridged to AES3 at 44.1/48kHz sampling rates (24 bits), or two Dante channels at 88.2/96kHz (24 bits)"


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> @rb2013, @mhamel
> Guys, what have we started here? lol
> Before we know it, there will be a huge backorder of RedNets! Hahahaha!
> 
> Cheers!


 

 I bet they'll be scratching their heads at all these orders all of a sudden.
  
 Maybe a few of those phone calls will register. 
  
 The SQ speaks for itself...I'm just amazed it took this long to uncover
  
 Cheers to that!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Mine's arriving tomorrow, can't wait! USB audio is dead, long live network based transports!


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> When I ordered my D16 today I warned the sales tech that they might see a spike in sales. I also suggested that he check in at HF and CA...
> 
> On that note it is odd to me that there is not more activity on CA regarding AS67. Most of the activity regarding Ethernet is regarding streaming devices.


 

 Yes  I did a search there yesterday as well.  Even with Mike priming the pump - really not much interest or even skepticism.
  
 No folks this is where the action is.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> I probably should have asked this before ordering the D16 but what they heck...
> 
> Is anyone running Win2012 on their PC with the Dante virtual sound card?
> 
> ...


 

 Both very good questions - I know JPlay is a no go.


----------



## rb2013

occamsrazor said:


> I would _love_ to see this comparison be made. The microRendu does have some advantages like higher PCM and DSD rates supported, and err... size. As for Roon you should be able to use that via Dante Virtual Soundcard, no?
> While uRendu supports a lot of different streaming protocols, the big advantage of Dante is not being linked to any player's particular protocol... and that is very nice, I hate being locked in.
> While I certainly agree in principle with _"You're still left with having to gizmo out the USB part for top SQ" _... I guess the proof is in the listening, so if anyone does have access to both it would be great to hear.


 

 No Roon needs a Render because it's based on DNLA/UpNP.  AES67 Dante is completely different.  I'll post one of Alex's comments on DNLA/UpNP I posted on the AOIP thread.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio
  


> > 09-13-2014, 08:48 PM#11​​
> > *Superdad*
> >
> >
> ...


 
  
 DNLA/UpNP puts a lot of demands on the DAC/DDC hardware:


> *Miska*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It will be hard to compare both easily - as Roon requires DNLA/UpNP render.  Does not work with the USB-like ASIO driver.  The AES67 Dante is NOT DNLA/UpNP - so will not run Roon - but will run every other open player.
  
 So to compare the microRendu to the REDNET 3 or 16d - would require completely different players - and Roon COSTS $500.
  
 But think it through a few folks here have bought F-1's to drive the USB leg of the microRendu chain.  Uptone added in some Regen magic to help the USB side of the microRendu.  But to get to the level I was at with the F-1 would require another $500-$600 in LPS's and USB gizmos (that's without the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso USB extender as galvanic isolation).  Seems very 'Rube Goldberg' to me.  And you are still left with all the electrical issues that come with USB - I find it hard to see how it could beat the simple REDNET3 connection.


----------



## bButcher

rickyv said:


> Hi all, i have been DIYing a bit.   IT WORKS!!
> The pic below is powering the second small regulator, uwb super regulator from NewClassD.
> 
> Its a  temporary formation for now until i finish my music computer.
> ...


 
 Congratulate!
  
 Since you have gone this far. May I suggest you also remove the 3.3V LDO (U18 - 5pin package between the two 100uF Cap) and power 3.3V directly to pin 17 or 19 of the 20 pin I2S connector.
 If your NewClassD regulator can not be modified to output 3.3V,  then a $49 ADI ADM7151CP-02-EVALZ evaluation board (1.6 μVRMS Total Integrated Noise from 10 Hz to 100 KHz; 
 Noise Spectral Density <1.7nV√Hz above 10 KHz) should be nice addition.


----------



## BucketInABucket

Hi guys,
  
 I'm sorry if this has been discussed already, but have any of you worked out a proper case solution for the F-1?


----------



## jelt2359

clemmaster said:


> I posted with the intuition that Rednet is superior than anything you've tried so far because it goes around the typical issues with USB: lots of electrical noise (from the PC) and signal conditioning.
> 
> The microRendu was designed with these in mind.
> While it might still be a more CPU intensive device than a Audio over IP endpoint (thus, potentially generating more noise on the ground plane), the signal does not go through the SPDif receiver in the DAC, which usually adds more jitter than a modern asynchronous USB implementation.




Agreed- this is why I went for it. I also have optical end points for my network, but match this with a good power supply and this is probably as good as it gets with USB. Sonore actually thinks that there's nothing inherently bad with USB, it's the typical way it's used that is problematic. Anyway- isn't this also aoip, just with specific streaming protocols and USB output, or am I missing something here? Btw it's not all just Roon. Jriver works, and Logitech Media Server is free and works with the microrendu, as well.


----------



## rb2013

hopkins said:


> Here is a 600 $ Dante to AES box:
> http://www.atterotech.com/products/dante-aes-o/


 

 Yes saw this before - based on the Dante Ultimo chip - unfortunately not the Brooklyn 1 or 2.  So limited to 96k - not sure if the SQ would be the same as the full Dante implementation.  First the full Dante cards have better clocking and with Focusrite the use of JetPLL for jitter reduction:


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> Yes saw this before - based on the Dante Ultimo chip - unfortunately not the Brooklyn 1 or 2.  So limited to 96k - not sure if the SQ would be the same as the full Dante implementation.  First the full Dante cards have better clocking and with Focusrite the use of JetPLL for jitter reduction:


 
 I suspect that the better clocking will make a huge difference. I'd rather spend $1000 and know it's going to be good, based on reports here, rather than potentially waste $600 on a dud. If $1000 is out of reach I would recommend waiting for a cheaper product to come out hopefully in the next year or so.


----------



## rb2013

clemmaster said:


> I posted with the intuition that Rednet is superior than anything you've tried so far because it goes around the typical issues with USB: lots of electrical noise (from the PC) and signal conditioning.
> 
> The microRendu was designed with these in mind.
> While it might still be a more CPU intensive device than a Audio over IP endpoint (thus, potentially generating more noise on the ground plane), the signal does not go through the SPDif receiver in the DAC, which usually adds more jitter than a modern asynchronous USB implementation.


 
 But it does go through a SPDIF if you are using a F-1 (some USB DDC's offer i2s - but in my testing sound vastly inferior to the F-1).  But with USB you have many issues (I have posted on these numerous time in this thread).  On the PHY there is SI issues.  As the AGC modulates to deal with SI variences this generates 'Packet Noise' As John Swenson points out.  Additonally you are feeding DC power along with the data stream - all coming from a busy USB buss.  Then there is the impedance mismatching issues, galvanic isolation, etc...To get a hi res (178k and 192k 24 bit) data stream the USB convention had to be altered - hence USB 2.0 Audio Asyn (which MS has yet to support - even in WIN10).  Unfortunately there is no error correction for lost packets (I have posted numerous links on this as well).  USB 1.0 and 2.0 was never intended for hi res audio.
 http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner


> Remember that SI consists of rise/fall time, noise, and jitter. The jitter in the SIGNAL is determined by the transmitter PHY, which can be significantly influenced by the clock IT gets and the noise on its PG planes. USUALLY noise is low on the signal as it exits the PHY. The cable (and connectors) cause an increase in raise/fall times, added noise (EMI and crosstalk from power and ground wires) and decreased amplitude of the signal. *Any decent receiver will have an automatic gain control (AGC) which compensates for this effect, but that raises the noise on the signal, so I'm lumping the amplitude decrease into noise.* The cable by itself rarely adds jitter to the signal, BUT the increased rise/fall times and extra noise cause the received data to have increased jitter in the PHY. This is one of the big issues that all that extra processing is designed to deal with.
> 
> *When that XMOS chip is dealing with data from the host it is generating its own noise on the PG planes, part of the noise will be from the PHY and part from the MAC. The PHY part can change due to SI of the USB signal, the rest cannot, it stays the same. If separate ground planes and separate power supplies are not used, that noise can directly affect the DAC chip(s) and the master clock oscillator. As was posted from a previous post of mine, even if separate supplies and planes are used with isolation between them, the effects of this noise still winds up at the DAC chip and clock.*
> 
> The part of this noise not from the PHY is always there, it doesn't matter what your cable is, what USB card you have, whether you have a REGEN etc, it's still there. All that stuff is keeping the PHY part from ADDING extra noise that makes things worse.


 
  


jelt2359 said:


> Agreed- this is why I went for it. I also have optical end points for my network, but match this with a good power supply and this is probably as good as it gets with USB. Sonore actually thinks that there's nothing inherently bad with USB, it's the typical way it's used that is problematic. Anyway- isn't this also aoip, just with specific streaming protocols and USB output, or am I missing something here? Btw it's not all just Roon. Jriver works, and Logitech Media Server is free and works with the microrendu, as well.


 
 The Rendu is DNLA/UnNP not AOIP - as in the AES67 Dante or Ravenna protocol - DNLA/UpNP is a very complicated affair.  Then you're adding USB back in to the mix.  Trouble on top of trouble.
  


> *Miska*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> I suspect that the better clocking will make a huge difference. I'd rather spend $1000 and know it's going to be good, based on reports here, rather than potentially waste $600 on a dud. If $1000 is out of reach I would recommend waiting for a cheaper product to come out hopefully in the next year or so.


 

 Me too - and these can sometimes be found for less.  I bought mine as a 'open box demo' of the REDNET 3 for $799.  There were a few used for $600 around - but they are gone.
  
 This is the cutting edge of computer audio  - I firmly believe we'll see many more products in the next year.


----------



## mourip

Basic D3/D16 question. Do these devices pass through what ever is sent to them? 44 in 44 out. 192 in 192 out?
  
 Please tell me I do not need to change the rate each time or upsample everything in JRMC to a specific rate


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

mourip said:


> Basic D3/D16 question. Do these devices pass through what ever is sent to them? 44 in 44 out. 192 in 192 out?


 

 Yes, except higher than 192 to my understanding (DSD).


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Basic D3/D16 question. Do these devices pass through what ever is sent to them? 44 in 44 out. 192 in 192 out?


 
 Yes  - but I believe you can resample as well - You can dl the manuals from this site:
  
 https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-3/downloads


----------



## Muziqboy

Yes!


----------



## mourip

soundsgoodtome said:


> Yes, except higher than 192 to my understanding (DSD).


 
  
 Whew. Thanks!
  


rb2013 said:


> Yes  - but I believe you can resample as well - You can dl the manuals from this site:
> 
> https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-3/downloads


 
  
  
 My Yggy is limited to 192 anyway. My Mutec USB allows me to wrap DSD in a PCM wrapper and send as 192 so I can still play the few DSD files I bought when I had my Vega DAC. Any way to do this with the D16?


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> But it does go through a SPDIF if you are using a F-1 (some USB DDC's offer i2s - but in my testing sound vastly inferior to the F-1).  But with USB you have many issues (I have posted on these numerous time in this thread).  On the PHY there is SI issues.  As the AGC modulates to deal with SI variences this generates 'Packet Noise' As John Swenson points out.  Additonally you are feeding DC power along with the data stream - all coming from a busy USB buss.  Then there is the impedance mismatching issues, galvanic isolation, etc...To get a hi res (178k and 192k 24 bit) data stream the USB convention had to be altered - hence USB 2.0 Audio Asyn (which MS has yet to support - even in WIN10).  Unfortunately there is no error correction for lost packets (I have posted numerous links on this as well).  USB 1.0 and 2.0 was never intended for hi res audio.
> http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner
> 
> The Rendu is DNLA/UnNP not AOIP - as in the AES67 Dante or Ravenna protocol - DNLA/UpNP is a very complicated affair.  Then you're adding USB back in to the mix.  Trouble on top of trouble.


 
  
 Thank you. What if I use Roon+HqPlayer in NAA mode? Will that sidestep these issues?
  
 And re: all the USB issues you've posted, will adding a Mutec 3+ USB solve them?


----------



## ciphercomplete

mourip said:


> Basic D3/D16 question. Do these devices pass through what ever is sent to them? 44 in 44 out. 192 in 192 out?
> 
> Please tell me I do not need to change the rate each time or upsample everything in JRMC to a specific rate


 
  
 If there is a way to set the D16 for sample rate passthrough I have not found it yet.  I was hoping another rednet user would know.  Ive looked through all the options in th Rednet Controller software and the Dante Virtual Sound card software.
  
 If it cant do passthrough it will be a deal breaker for alot of folks.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Whew. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> My Yggy is limited to 192 anyway. My Mutec USB allows me to wrap DSD in a PCM wrapper and send as 192 so I can still play the few DSD files I bought when I had my Vega DAC. Any way to do this with the D16?


 

 Yes that is DSD DoP.  The REDNET should be able to do this as well - although I have not tried it.  It's just DSD encoded as PCM.
  
 Remember the Mutec converts DSD to PCM.
 http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> If there is a way to set the D16 for sample rate passthrough I hav found it yet.  I was hoping another rednet user would know.  Ive looked through all the options in th Rednet Controller software and the Dante Virtual Sound card software.
> 
> If it cant do passthrough it will be a deal breaker for alot of folks.


Yes just have JR upsample to 192k. That's what I do in Foobar/SoX. SQ is best this way. JR can upsample right. In fact, I can play DSD 256 and 384k DXD files as well, Foobar converts DSD to PCM, SoX to 192k. Sounds great. Way better then native 44k or 96k.


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> Thank you. What if I use Roon+HqPlayer in NAA mode? Will that sides these issues?
> 
> And re: all the USB issues you've posted, will adding a Mutec 3+ USB solve them?


Unfortunately not, Miska locked HQPlayer to NAA, as part of his business model.
The Mutec 3+ USB is very good, but my uber chain fed F-1 was better. The REDNET 3 at a whole other level. Getting USB out of the equation, was like removing some hidden low level distortion. Once gone you realize it, so much smoother, a ease to the music. Yet with greater detail. The bass another half octave lower, better defined. Really extrodinary. I had a Mutec 3+ USB for a while as a loaner. It was great as a spdif reclocker with the REDNET 3. My next purchase - but w/o the USB.


----------



## ciphercomplete

rb2013 said:


> Yes just have JR upsample to 192k. That's what I do in Foobar/SoX. SQ is best this way. JR can upsample right. In fact, I can play DSD 256 and 384k DXD files as well, Foobar converts DSD to PCM, SoX to 192k. Sounds great. Way better then native 44k or 96k.


 
  
 The Yggdrassil upsamples better than software though so its a problem.  A big percentage of the $2200 cost of the Yggy is for the propietary resample filter.  If I upsample to 192 using foobar or Jriver I completely bypass the filter and it sounds worse for it (believe me I have tried it). So its either set everything to 44.1 which is 90% of my music and downsample the 10% of my files from 192, 96 or 88 OR find some value in between like 88.2 OR set the sample rate in both Jriver and Rednet when I move between files with different sample rates. 
  
 Since this is pro equipment I understand why it doesnt have passthrough, its just annoying.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> The Yggdrassil upsamples better than software though so its a problem.  A big percentage of the $2200 cost of the Yggy is for the propietary resample filter.  If I upsample to 192 using foobar or Jriver I completely bypass the filter and it sounds worse for it (believe me I have tried it). So its either set everything to 44.1 which is 90% of my music and downsample the 10% of my files from 192, 96 or 88 OR find some value in between like 88.2 OR set the sample rate in both Jriver and Rednet when I move between files with different sample rates.
> 
> Since this is pro equipment I understand why it doesnt have passthrough, its just annoying.



My APL DAC upsamples everything to 211k. And feeding it 192k upsampled 44k files sounds way better. Anyway, if 44k is 90% of your music ( mine is about 80%), how often do you jump around sampling rates? It's just two clicks of the mouse.

BTW, the Yggie is upsampling, not filtering to192k. The higher res, pushes the digital noise further up the freq, and a softer ( versus brickwall) filter can be used. It digital filter should not change when presented 192k vs 44k source material.

You have to ask yourself, how important is the best SQ? You pd $800 more for the 16D over the 3, to me that could have gone for a Mutec 3+ to reclock spdif.
For me at least SQ is very important, and it's not like you have to switch players. Or buy Roon for $500.

My history is from analog, which took 10 mins to flip an album side on my VPI TT.


----------



## ciphercomplete

rb2013 said:


> My APL DAC upsamples everything to 211k. And feeding it 192k upsampled 44k files sounds way better. Anyway, if 44k is 90% of your music ( mine is about 80%), how often do you jump around sampling rates? It's just two clicks of the mouse.
> 
> You have to ask yourself, how important is the best SQ? You pd $800 more for the 16D over the 3, to me that could have gone for a Mutec 3+ to reclock spdif.
> For me at least SQ is very important, and it's not like you have to switch players. Or buy Roon for $500.
> ...


 
 Its annoying because I run a headless server without a permanent monitor attached.  I paid for the D16 because I thought it had passthrough for my few 176 files and for its form factor.  The Mutec would not solve this problem.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> Its annoying because I run a headless server without a permanent monitor attached.  I paid for the D16 because I thought it had passthrough for my few 176 files and for its form factor.  The Mutec would not solve this problem.


Well I guess return it.


----------



## ciphercomplete

Its just FYI for prospective buyers.  Like I said, it will be a deal breaker for many.  I'm still evaluating it and comparing it to my old set up- I've got 30 days.  We will see.


----------



## mhamel

ciphercomplete said:


> Its just FYI for prospective buyers.  Like I said, it will be a deal breaker for many.  I'm still evaluating it and comparing it to my old set up- I've got 30 days.  We will see.


 
  
 There's a setting in RedNet control for "SR Follow" - which from my understanding makes it follow the sample rate of the PC, but I haven't spent much time looking into it beyond that yet.


----------



## ciphercomplete

mhamel said:


> There's a setting in RedNet control for "SR Follow" - which from my understanding makes it follow the sample rate of the PC, but I haven't spent much time looking into it beyond that yet.


 
  
 Yeah I saw that and I thought thats what it did but it didnt work.  I am going to keep at it and if I find a solution Ill post it.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> There's a setting in RedNet control for "SR Follow" - which from my understanding makes it follow the sample rate of the PC, but I haven't spent much time looking into it beyond that yet.


Yeah I tried that one. It sets tne SR follow to the DAW, not the DVS. That is what is needed.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Yeah I tried that one. It sets tne SR follow to the DAW, not the DVS. That is what is needed.


 
  
 In theory, I would think it meant whatever the DVS was set to on the DAW. I'll take another look when it's not almost 1am.


----------



## occamsrazor

rb2013 said:


> No Roon needs a Render because it's based on DNLA/UpNP.  AES67 Dante is completely different.  I'll post one of Alex's comments on DNLA/UpNP I posted on the AOIP thread.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 With the utmost respect are you sure this is all correct? Roon isn't just DLNA/UPNP, it also uses it's own RAAT streaming protocol, and also supports direct non-ethernet connections. But that's not my point. You're looking at Roon as the server and needing a remote ethernet renderer, which while it is one way of doing things wasn't what I was suggesting could work.
  
 Essentially you're looking at:
  
_Roon Server/Core > Ethernet > Dante box as proposed renderer_
  
 and saying that won't work. Which of course is absolutely correct - it won't work.
  
 But Roon can also work happily on a single machine operating as both server and renderer outputting to a direct connection, as is the case when you run Roon and simply output direct to a USB DAC. So the topology I am thinking is:
  
_Roon Server/Core/Renderer on computer > Dante Virtual Soundcard (as an OS output just like any other such as USB) > Ethernet > Dante box_
  
 I don't see why that wouldn't work... In which case I don't see that it would be that hard to make a sonic comparison between:
  
 1. Any player that MicroRendu supports (Roon, HQPlayer, etc) > Ethernet > MicroRendu > USB > DAC
  
 and
  
 2. Any player that MicroRendu supports (Roon, HQPlayer, etc) > Dante Virtual Soundcard (DVS) > Ethernet > Rednet box > AES/SPDIF > DAC
  
 Or am I missing something?


----------



## jabbr

ciphercomplete said:


> Its just FYI for prospective buyers.  Like I said, it will be a deal breaker for many.  I'm still evaluating it and comparing it to my old set up- I've got 30 days.  We will see.




This could be a deal breaker for me, unless it can be shown that upsampling to a single (or two at most to keep things in their proper family) is not degrading to the sound quality. Theoretically it shouldn't be of course, certainly not when done offline. Doing it online might give a lot of unwanted electrical noise from the CPU activity. I have never heard any benefits either though, but that's not the point in this case.

For pro-audio it is totally logical to manually set a single leading sample rate as a recording project is of course done with only one single rate which is known and set in advance.

This where differences show up between pro and consumer gear.

Again some extra tests to do if/when I get one.

Cheers


----------



## mourip

ciphercomplete said:


> Its annoying because I run a headless server without a permanent monitor attached.  I paid for the D16 because I thought it had passthrough for my few 176 files and for its form factor.  The Mutec would not solve this problem.


 
  
 +1
  
 I tend to jump between albums and tracks and also run headless, usually just using JRMC Remote on my iPhone to change music. Probably only 10% of my music is over 16/44. Hopefully setting JRMC to 192 with the D16 will still better the Mutec USB with rate switching. I shall soon find out.
  
 Is there a way for me to use my Mutec USB with the D16 to circumvent this? Although even if there is I would be into this for $1500 + $1200. Not the end of the world for an endgame solution but still "Yikes". My plan was to sell off my USB game train!
  
 I will remain optimistic and perhaps a workaround will emerge. Worst case it goes back and my Mutec still sounds pretty great


----------



## rb2013

occamsrazor said:


> With the utmost respect are you sure this is all correct? Roon isn't just DLNA/UPNP, it also uses it's own RAAT streaming protocol, and also supports direct non-ethernet connections. But that's not my point. You're looking at Roon as the server and needing a remote ethernet renderer, which while it is one way of doing things wasn't what I was suggesting could work.
> 
> Essentially you're looking at:
> 
> ...


 

 Well I hope you are right!  That it's that easy to port Roon -RATT over to a USB like ASIO Dante DVS output.  That would just open up more player to the AES67 solution - forgoing USB.
 But I'm pretty sure it won't.
  
 If you go to the Roon 'Partners' page - has a fairly impressive list. On is TotalDAC and Auralic - but when you press the their links - it only works on their network players.  Take Auralic - Roon only works with their Aries network player - not with their USB DAC the Vega.
  
 Same for TotalDAC.
  
 Now I'm sure is a simple chain as you describe would work - the very smart folks at Auralic and TotalDAC would have figured out how and Roon would be promoting that.  There are many more Vega DACs out there then Aries NW players.
  
 But maybe you are right - but I'm not spending $500 for it to try it.  Maybe someone else can?


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> This could be a deal breaker for me, unless it can be shown that upsampling to a single (or two at most to keep things in their proper family) is not degrading to the sound quality. Theoretically it shouldn't be of course, certainly not when done offline. Doing it online might give a lot of unwanted electrical noise from the CPU activity. I have never heard any benefits either though, but that's not the point in this case.
> 
> For pro-audio it is totally logical to manually set a single leading sample rate as a recording project is of course done with only one single rate which is known and set in advance.
> 
> ...


 

 Well this is the beginning of a major computer audio revolution - there will be more 'consumer' devices coming down the road - DDC's and DAC's.  So if this a deal breaker for you  - so be it.  To me the SQ is superb - at 192k.
  
 The REDNET's won't do 784k PCM native or DSD512 native - and no i2s - so I'm sure that will 'deal breakers' for many as well.


----------



## wushuliu

Roon will have a short shelf life. I give them 2 years before the next big media player comes along if it hasnt already.


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> Its annoying because I run a headless server without a permanent monitor attached.  I paid for the D16 because I thought it had passthrough for my few 176 files and for its form factor.  The Mutec would not solve this problem.


 

 No I'm not saying the Mutec would solve your SR rate change on the fly - but it would go towards taking the REDNET SQ to another higher level.
  
 So instead of REDNET 16d = $1600
  
 REDNET3 $1000 + Mutec 3+ $800 = $1800


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> Roon will have a short shelf life. I give them 2 years before the next big media player comes along if it hasnt already.


 

 They are getting a lot of audio media buzz  - I guess they hope to lock up enough users at $120/yr or commit to the $500 upfront fee.  Then they'll have a revenue stream monetized.  And that's per machine (aside from a portable device I guess), not per user.

 At least with WaveLabs 6.0 they use a USB dongle that can be moved from machine to machine.


----------



## rb2013

Now the REDNET is not the perfect implementation of AES67 AOIP - but it is here and now - not a Unicorn or Vaporware.
  
 It was designed for a different purpose - so the cost is high and the functionality is for the studio environment.  So it's not optimized for our purpose.
  
 But what is does is superb sound - a leap frog over the herculean uber USB chain I had before (and now in my office system).
  
 But it is just the first step for us Audiophiles - it's a gateway into the possibilities of AES67 AOIP.  I'm sure a unit with only 2 channels running a LP'S and maybe other tweeks will surpass it in SQ.  All these things will come with Raveena or Dante in the future.
  
 But I for one an so happy to have it.  It's been running super stable (not one unlock, freeze or crash) in my main system for over a week now.  Even in a 96 degree Seattle heatwave.
  
 Album after Album a revelation.  Even the 30-40 yr old stuff - just sounds stellar.
 Last night listening to Jerri Tull - Benefit, Stand Up, Minstrel in the Gallery.
 The results amazing.  Of particular note the sound staging - deep and wide with absolute precision imaging.  The musicality and ease just great.  A major leap over USB.
  
 There is more to come on the AOIP train.


----------



## BucketInABucket

bucketinabucket said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm sorry if this has been discussed already, but have any of you worked out a proper case solution for the F-1?


 
 Bump


----------



## Acrobat77

Hi all, very interesting thread! Happy Roon and microRendu user here and I'd like to correct some things. Occamsrazor is right.
  
 Roon can output to almost any computer connected device which should include the DVS since it's known to the system as a virtual soundcard e.g. using the ASIO protocol. See also this page https://kb.roonlabs.com/Architecture for all supported output devices and the Roon building blocks (Core, Control and Output). The DVS would qualify as a 'local device so you could use Roon installed with 'Core' only for headless machines and remote control with something like an iPad for example or the full Roon installation which includes a local running GUI (it installs Roon's core, control and output functions).
  
 RAAT is Roons proprietary streaming protocol and not related in any way to DLNA/uPnP/OH, lot's of detailed information about it here: https://kb.roonlabs.com/RAAT
  
 The Sonore microRendu is a 'Roon Ready' device which means it is an endpoint certified by Roon Labs and uses a hard- and software tailored version of RAAT. More info on Roon Ready here: https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_partner_programs
  
 There's also a slimmed down output only Roon install for Windows/Mac/Linux called Roon Bridge. It acts as an endpoint and receives a music stream using RAAT over ethernet. More info on it here: https://kb.roonlabs.com/RoonBridge
  
 ---
  
 The microRendu is more than just a uPnP renderer, it can function in all modes below:
  
 (source http://www.microrendu.sonore.us/)
  
Mode #1 - SqueezeLite Output - This output works with any Logitech Media Server and compatible controllers. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM and DSD/DoP.

Mode #2 - ShairPort Output - This is an AirPlay emulator that utilizes streams sent to it from a compatible source. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM.

Mode #3 - MPD/DLNA Output:

 Mode #3a - DLNA Output - This output utilizes streams from UPNP/DLNA servers and controllers. This output can be configured as an OpenHome renderer. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.

Mode #3b - MPD Output - This output is intended to work with a SMB mount. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.

Mode #4 - HQ Player NAA Output - This output utilizes streams from Signalyst's HQ Player running on your computer. Digital signal processing is performed by HQ Player and then asynchronously streamed to the Network Audio Adapter (NAA) output. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.
 
Mode #5 - RoonReady Output - This output utilizes streams from Roon. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.
 
 
 
---
Just as an FYI introduction (first post here), my current system is: PS Audio P3 Power Plant, Lessloss DFPC/DFPC Signature power cables, Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4, Sonore microRendu, Curious USB cable, Mutec MC-3+ USB, DH Labs D-110 AES/EBU, Devialet 250, Nordost Tyr Reference LS cables, Von Schweikert VR-5 SE Anniversary Edition, Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0, JL Audio Fathom F112
 
There's also a pair of gigabit TP Link fiber ethernet converters with Cisco GBICs between the current PC based 'NAS' running Roon and the microRendu. The FMC close to the microRendu is LPSU powered.
 
 
In the past I have used or tried the Regen, Jitterbug and Intona USB Isolator (Industrial version) and some different ethernet (like AQ Diamond) and USB cables (including Audioquest, TotalDAC D1, Kingrex, Supra). My PC consisted of (the microRendu has replaced it):
 
JCAT USB interface + JCAT battery PSU
Paul Pang/PPA Studio Red SATA cable
Windows Server 2012 R2 standard with Audiophile Optimizer, JPlay, Fidelizer Pro
PSU: HDPlex 100W Linear PSU + HDPlex HiFi 250W DC ATX PSU
Network: gigabit optical fiber converters for full galvanic isolation

Case: Streacom FC5 WS EVO
Mainboard: Gigabyte GA-Z97MX-Gaming 5
CPU: Intel Core i3-4350T 35W dual core 3.1gHz hd4600
RAM: G.Skill RipjawsX 8GB (2x4GB kit F3-12800CL7D-8GBXM), CL7
Storage: Samsung 840 EVO 500GB SSD
Internal star earthing and earthed shielding of certain components like the JCAT, twisted DC cables in part shielded
AC powered by PS Audio P3 Power Plant


----------



## mourip

Quote:


bucketinabucket said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm sorry if this has been discussed already, but have any of you worked out a proper case solution for the F-1?



  
  
 I do not have an F1 but there are several posts with pictures in this thread.
  
 Try around page 39...


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Very interesting thread! Happy Roon and microRendu user here and I'd like to correct some things. Occamsrazor is right.
> 
> Roon can output to almost any device which should include the DVS since it's known to the system as a virtual soundcard e.g. using the ASIO protocol. See also this page https://kb.roonlabs.com/Architecture for all supported output devices. The DVS would qualify as a 'local device so you could use Roon installed with 'Core' only for headless machines and remote control with something like an iPad for example or the full Roon installation which includes a local running GUI (it installs Roon's core, control and output functions).
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for all the links and posts.  I'm curious with such a high end system - why the microrendu  and not the rendu signature?  It appears to have a very nice BNC spdif out, better clocks, better isolation.
  
 The cost of your microrendu chain + the Mutec 3+ USB would be pretty close to the cost of the Signature.  My experience with the Mutec 3+ USB was good, but not excellent.  The XMOS USB card they use is kinda mediocre U-8/Ave clocks and of course the Mutec 3+ USB uses a SMPS Meanwell PS.

  
 http://rendu.sonore.us/signature-series-rendu.html


> Introducing the ​*Sonore Signature Series Rendu​*.  We looked at the standard Rendu, already providing fantastic performance in many systems, and thought hard about how it might be improved, how we might lower jitter, and improve on its digital precision.  We decided the correct way to go would be to upgrade all facets of the design making incremental improvements which add up to considerable performance gains.  The power supply is upgraded both in parts quality and layout.  The big addition is the new isolated, clock/re-clock, output board.  By specification, the Ethernet input is already isolated from the noise on the network, but there is still some noise produced on the processing board.  To generate an absolutely pure clock signal, we added a separate, isolated, output board with a separately regulated power supply.  This output board holds the *dual Crystek CCHD oscillators*, the re-clocking circuitry, and the output drive circuitry for SPDIF and I2S.  *Because the Signature Series Rendu generates clean clocks and then reclocks on the output board right before the SPDIF and I2S output jitter is lowered even further*.  *Additionally, a very special SPDIF driver circuitry results in a perfectly clean SPDIF waveform which allows one to get the best out of any SPDIF input DAC*.  While the original Rendu has set the Ethernet to SPDIF and I2S standard up to now, the new ​Signature Series​ Rendu takes performance to the next level, this is the best SPDIF and I2S we can make, and we suspect that you will think so as well.​*SIGNATURE SERIES FEATURES*
> Beautiful custom made case built in the USA
> Custom made footers with Sorbothane isolators
> Power supply with internally shielded Plitron transformer (the best, from Canada)
> ...


 
  
  
 Then you could use i2s not SPDIF?


----------



## rb2013

I don't see anywhere on this list how you can use a open source non-DNLA player (other then HQ Player) - even if you were keen on paying the $500 upfront Roon license per machine:
  


> Mode #1 - SqueezeLite Output - This output works with any Logitech Media Server and compatible controllers. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM and DSD/DoP.
> 
> Mode #2 - ShairPort Output - This is an AirPlay emulator that utilizes streams sent to it from a compatible source. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM.
> 
> ...


----------



## atomicbob

Three questions that I have yet to find answers in this thread (I'm sure they are in there but my google-fu is weak today):
  
 1. Simple crossover cable or gigabit switch
 2. If gigabit switch, which one
 3. UTP or STP cable


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Three questions that I have yet to find answers in this thread (I'm sure they are in there but my google-fu is weak today):
> 
> 1. Simple crossover cable or gigabit switch
> 2. If gigabit switch, which one
> 3. UTP or STP cable


 

 Regarding REDNET AES67 or ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso USB Extender?


----------



## atomicbob

Rednet D16 Dante Virtual Audio Cable


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Rednet D16 Dante Virtual Audio Cable


 

 This should answer any questions you have on the networking - I use a UTP cable - but according to some folks a CAT 7 STP could be used if one end of the shielding is disconnected to preserve galvanic isolation (or a ethernet galvanic isolator if you need to use STP cables)
  
 https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/files/PDF/adding-dante-to-your-network-audinate.pdf
 https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/files/PDF/advanced-dante-networking-avnw-2015-audinate.pdf
  
 PS This was posted over on my other thread on ethernet isolators:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio/75#post_12632055


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for all the links and posts.  I'm curious with such a high end system - why the microrendu  and not the rendu signature?  It appears to have a very nice BNC spdif out, better clocks, better isolation.
> 
> The cost of your microrendu chain + the Mutec 3+ USB would be pretty close to the cost of the Signature.  My experience with the Mutec 3+ USB was good, but not excellent.  The XMOS USB card they use is kinda mediocre U-8/Ave clocks and of course the Mutec 3+ USB uses a SMPS Meanwell PS.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi rb2013,
  
 I kind of grew into these solutions as I initially used WiFi and later ethernet using Devialet's proprietary ethernet/WiFi streaming protocol called 'AIR'. Having an IT background I initially didn't believe things could sound different, 'bits are just bits' right? I was so wrong!  After trying out some things I learned from the computeraudiophile forum things went quickly and I also figured out that using a tweaked computer USB could actually sound better than the WiFi and ethernet inputs of the Devialet. (still can't explain the why or hows behind this with certainty).

 Another preconception I had was that ethernet/WiFi and USB should in theory be better than the S/PDIF or AES/EBU inputs on the Devialet. Wrong again! I found out in practice using the Mutec MC-3+ USB that it improved SQ significantly (I learned about the device from a fellow Devialet owner). This could of course also be because of the Mutec being a better DDC and re-clocker than the Devialet USB/ethernet internals which I today consider to be 'mediocre' as you called the Mutec's USB input (which I don't agree with!  To me it's sounds brilliant in tandem with the microRendu).
  
 Because of the above the Sonore Signature Rendu had never been on my radar and it never got really much press attention and little user reviews as well. Also I now see it's available in a 220/230V version but this option must have been added recently, it used to be 110V only. The Devialet unfortunately doesn't have an I2S input so I can't use that. Another thing that held me back was the fact that I am in The Netherlands and importing stuff from the US is expensive (shipping+customs duties and VAT).
  
 I'm not saying the microRendu is my "end station", I'm actually very interested in Ravenna/Dante or any other audio over ethernet/IP protocol. Devialet AIR being similar, functionality wise, was one of the reasons I bought the Devialet. I didn't like finding out though that it doesn't support automatic sample rate switching, so that's a setback for me.
  
 I'm waiting for the four rail custom Paul Hynes SR7EHD-MR4 PSU to arrive, it will power my Mutec, which I will mod, as well (and the microRendu, Anti-Mode and FMC).


----------



## mhamel

atomicbob said:


> Three questions that I have yet to find answers in this thread (I'm sure they are in there but my google-fu is weak today):
> 
> 1. Simple crossover cable or gigabit switch
> 2. If gigabit switch, which one
> 3. UTP or STP cable


 
  
  
 1 - Crossover cable not required. Ports are auto-sensing and will sync up either directly connected or via a switch.
 2 - It should work with most if not all GigE copper switches, and should even work over 10/100, especially when we're talking two channel audio. The highest network utilization I've seen on the link I'm using for Dante has been around 20Mbit/sec. We are really only using a fraction of the capacity of the network for stereo audio purposes.
 3 - UTP, though as Bob pointed out, if you want to use STP and want to maintain isolation across the network connection, probably better to have the shield only connected at the source.  Also, if you are using AES out, it is also transformer coupled right at the interface.


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> I don't see anywhere on this list how you can use a open source non-DNLA player (other then HQ Player) - even if you were keen on paying the $500 upfront Roon license per machine:


 
  
 Well it's true, you can't. The microRendu is not a virtual soundcard. The only workaround I can think of is using an application like Jamcast (never tried it) which installs as a virtual soundcard and converts all sound output to a uPnP/DLNA stream. Personally, and I believe like you,I'm not a fan of uPnP/DLNA so I've never tried Jamcast nor have I ever had the need.
  
 Anyone that values the "directly connected" computer audio functionality/experience with which you can output sound or music from any program running on a computer (whether it is currently through an internal/extern soundcard, USB or ethernet) should indeed go for a Ravenna/Dante like solution or stick to the 'old' ways but not go for a microRendu. Even Devialet AIR is trouble ridden so even as an owner I wouldn't currently recommend that either.
  
 The microRendu OTOH is very versatile, more so than an Aurender, Aries or whatever commercial streamer so if it offers what you need I think it's a great value.


----------



## atomicbob

mhamel said:


> 1 - Crossover cable not required. Ports are auto-sensing and will sync up either directly connected or via a switch.
> 2 - It should work with most if not all GigE copper switches, and should even work over 10/100, especially when we're talking two channel audio. The highest network utilization I've seen on the link I'm using for Dante has been around 20Mbit/sec. We are really only using a fraction of the capacity of the network for stereo audio purposes.
> 3 - UTP, though as Bob pointed out, if you want to use STP and want to maintain isolation across the network connection, probably better to have the shield only connected at the source.  Also, if you are using AES out, it is also transformer coupled right at the interface.


 
 Thank-you.
  
 So does this imply that if I dedicate an ethernet port from a laptop for Dante VAC, I could connect the laptop EN port directly to the Rednet D16 EN port using a short Cat 6 UTP and dispense with the switch for a single Rednet device system?
  
 For the lab and larger systems I would expect to obtain one of the recommended managed switches. For portable operation it is preferable to minimize the number of items and connections necessary.


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Hi rb2013,
> 
> I kind of grew into these solutions as I initially used WiFi and later ethernet using Devialet's proprietary ethernet/WiFi streaming protocol called 'AIR'. Having an IT background I initially didn't believe things could sound different, 'bits are just bits' right? I was so wrong!  After trying out some things I learned from the computeraudiophile forum things went quickly and I also figured out that using a tweaked computer USB could actually sound better than the WiFi and ethernet inputs of the Devialet. (still can't explain the why or hows behind this with certainty).
> 
> ...


 

 That PH SR7 is a very sweet PS!  And not cheap.  When I say the Mutec USB card is not anything special - that it as a stand alone.  As compared to the F-1 with the XU208 XMOS and Cyrstek CCHD-575 clocks.  They Mutec does do galvanic isolation - so that is a positive aspect of their design.  You are kind new to this thread - and it's become a monster.  But in a head to head with a well fed F-1 the Mutec was no match.  It is an excellent SPDIF reclocker though.
  
 If your looking to max your SQ with the microrendu - you might try the F-1 with the PH PS and a few other tweeks.  Before gutting the PS on the Mutec.
  
 The AES67 solution is not going to work for you - and certainly the microrendu - which was designed with USB as a coupler.
  
 I hope that Roon-RATT does make a true bridge to a ASIO like output - so others can use it.  But by it's very design really can't see how that would be possible.  Without major surgery on the player side.  Now JR and Foobar have UpNP plugins - not really sure how that works though.
 http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_upnp
 Damn this is getting complicated:
  
 So happy with my chain now: PC>REDNET3>DAC


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Well it's true, you can't. The microRendu is not a virtual soundcard. The only workaround I can think of is using an application like Jamcast (never tried it) which installs as a virtual soundcard and converts all sound output to a uPnP/DLNA stream. Personally, and I believe like you,I'm not a fan of uPnP/DLNA so I've never tried Jamcast nor have I ever had the need.
> 
> Anyone that values the "directly connected" computer audio functionality/experience with which you can output sound or music from any program running on a computer (whether it is currently through an internal/extern soundcard, USB or ethernet) should indeed go for a Ravenna/Dante like solution or stick to the 'old' ways but not go for a microRendu. Even Devialet AIR is trouble ridden so even as an owner I wouldn't currently recommend that either.
> 
> The microRendu OTOH is very versatile, more so than an Aurender, Aries or whatever commercial streamer so if it offers what you need I think it's a great value.


 

 I see that Foobar does have a UpNP plugin - god it looks complicated.
 http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_upnp
  
 One thing I forgot to mention on your Devialet USB input and the fact is was bettered by an ext unit.  Uptone's John Swenson speaks about 'USB packet noise' feeding back through a DAC's internal PS (even across isolation efforts) producing noise fed to the DAC's clocks.  These femto second clocks are ultra sensitive to power supply noise.  So it's easy to see why moving away from USB would improve the SQ.
  
 So with an external DDC you at least get the XMOS and it's AGC circuit out of the DAC.  Best to put it on a separate and isolated and filtered AC line.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Thank-you.
> 
> So does this imply that if I dedicate an ethernet port from a laptop for Dante VAC, I could connect the laptop EN port directly to the Rednet D16 EN port using a short Cat 6 UTP and dispense with the switch for a single Rednet device system?
> 
> For the lab and larger systems I would expect to obtain one of the recommended managed switches. For portable operation it is preferable to minimize the number of items and connections necessary.


 

 Yes - that's how I have mine set-up.  Directly from the PC ethernet to the REDNET ethernet (no switch in between).  DVS and REDNET Controller on the PC.  The REDNET Controller is a just a hardware control interface.  Not to be confused with a UpNP Controller.


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> That PH SR7 is a very sweet PS!  And not cheap.  When I say the Mutec USB card is not anything special - that it as a stand alone.  As compared to the F-1 with the XU208 XMOS and Cyrstek CCHD-575 clocks.  They Mutec does do galvanic isolation - so that is a positive aspect of their design.  You are kind new to this thread - and it's become a monster.  But in a head to head with a well fed F-1 the Mutec was no match.  It is an excellent SPDIF reclocker though.
> 
> If your looking to max your SQ with the microrendu - you might try the F-1 with the PH PS and a few other tweeks.  Before gutting the PS on the Mutec.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The PH should indeed be a very nice PSU. It should arrive soon (last day of the estimated lead time ended yesterday) but with PH you never know! :-/ Mine is one from his own system so I got it at a very nice price and he offered to customize it for my targeted applications as well. All outputs (one 8A, three 2A) will be adjustable from 3.3V to 12V so I could potentially power a lot of different devices with it in the future.
  
 I'm not new to the thread (or your previous ones and those of others with similar interests) I'm just posting in one for the first time today (even signed up to the forum only today).  I've been enjoying reading about your adventures and of others posting here about theirs as well. So I know how things developed for you and others.
  
 Perhaps I'll try the Singxer F-1 or even the SU-1 one day with and without the MC-3+ as a S/PDIF re-clocker but I'm actually interested most in the Dante/Ravenna devices (eg. those Rednets). I don't see why these wouldn't work for me, I am of course aware that such a solution would replace the microRendu if it proves to be an upgrade. I don't think you/you guys should dismiss the microRendu this quickly though, I was really amazed (still am actually) what it did in my system with the Mutec. It really blew away my music server (not saying that that was the optimum, but at least it wasn't a standard PC or a Macbook or something like it).
  
 No, no, no, it's not complicated at all!  Just to be clear Roon RAAT is the protocol used for streaming to an endpoint like the microRendu or any computer running Windows/Linux or Mac.
  
 The part of Roon that for example "takes" ASIO as an input is the 'server' part. This is installed on a computer or Mac. Someone with a Rednet device would simply install the DVS software/driver on that same machine and the ASIO output becomes available as a local 'zone' in Roon. In this case you wouldn't need an endpoint like a microRendu running Roon as the Rednet device is the "endpoint" through the DVS. So it's PC with Roon Server + DVS -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC. Add a tablet or phone for remote control and you're done. Simple as that.  The PC that runs Roon Server+DVS can hold your music library or you could choose to load it from any other machine, like a NAS, in your network through SMB.


----------



## jelt2359

I just confirmed with sonore that the signature rendu does not support Roon. They can configure it to work with 230v, though.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi RB
  
 It's my understanding that ROON uses RAAT protocol, - which is a layer 3 protocol over UDP/UTP. It is not DLNA/UPnP
  
 Not making any judgments about SQ, - I have no experience with Roon or AES67... I trust your testing & analyses.


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> No, no, no, it's not complicated at all!  Just to be clear Roon RAAT is the protocol used for streaming to an endpoint like the microRendu or any computer running Windows/Linux or Mac.
> 
> The part of Roon that for example "takes" ASIO as an input is the 'server' part. This is installed on a computer or Mac. Someone with a Rednet device would simply install the DVS software/driver on that same machine and the ASIO output becomes available as a local 'zone' in Roon. In this case you wouldn't need an endpoint like a microRendu running Roon as the Rednet device is the "endpoint" through the DVS. So it's PC with Roon Server + DVS -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC. Add a tablet or phone for remote control and you're done. Simple as that.  The PC that runs Roon Server+DVS can hold your music library or you could choose to load it from any other machine, like a NAS, in your network through SMB.


 
 "No, no, no, it's not complicated at all!"
  
 "In this case you wouldn't need an endpoint like a microRendu running Roon as the Rednet device is the "endpoint" through the DVS. So it's PC with Roon Server + DVS -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC. Add a tablet or phone for remote control and you're done. Simple as that.  The PC that runs Roon Server+DVS can hold your music library or you could choose to load it from any other machine, like a NAS, in your network through SMB."
  
 Not as simple as this PC>REDNET>DAC


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> I see that Foobar does have a UpNP plugin - god it looks complicated.
> http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_upnp
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention on your Devialet USB input and the fact is was bettered by an ext unit.  Uptone's John Swenson speaks about 'USB packet noise' feeding back through a DAC's internal PS (even across isolation efforts) producing noise fed to the DAC's clocks.  These femto second clocks are ultra sensitive to power supply noise.  So it's easy to see why moving away from USB would improve the SQ.
> ...


 
 Yes, I agree. I understand John Swensons theory and those of people like Rob Watts, Gordon Rankin etc. In my view I believe them when they say it all comes down to feeding the DAC the lowest noise signal using the highest quality clocks possible. Clean power, internal ground planes and proper isolation between the different domains is extremely important and all this goes for the internal circuits of the DAC itself just as well.
  
 What I meant was that up to today I can't really understand why the USB input of the Devialet outperforms the ethernet input. It should be better but just isn't. Of course this must be because of the internal design of both interfaces though both are part of the same internal inferface card. But mind you, I no longer feel the need to understand, I've accepted it's true in my system, to my ears (though other confirm/have similar experiences) so am just glad I found other options that improved SQ without the direct need of buying a new DAC.
  
 Regarding clean AC I also agree with that. I use a separate AC circuit (shared earth unfortunately) and employ a PS Audio P3 power plant (230V) which is powerful enough to power all the stuff and even my sub without noticing any constraints in dynamics.


----------



## occamsrazor

rb2013 said:


> Not as simple as this PC>REDNET>DAC


 
  
 Actually I think it is exactly that. With respect the network streaming capability of Roon is completely irrelevant as _we would not be using that function of it_.
  
 When you say PC > Rednet > Dac
  
 What I think you actually mean is:
  
 PC running Player X > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
  
 If you were running Roon as your player it would simply be:
  
 PC running Roon > DVS on that PC > Rednet > Dac
  
 So no different to using any other player....


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> I just confirmed with sonore that the signature rendu does not support Roon. They can configure it to work with 230v, though.


 

 That is too bad - but it does DNLA/UpNP.

 So not all DNLA/UpNP players are compatible with Roon?
  


> *STANDARD FEATURES*
> *Supports Tidal lossless streaming via BubbleUPNP controller on an Android device*
> Supports *Tidal* lossless streaming via BubbleServer and Linn Kazoo controller
> Supports gapless playback
> ...


 
 So from Sonore their totl $2800 DNLA/UpNP device does not do what their $690 device does???
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'd be pretty pissed off if I spent almost $3K and it wouldn't work with my $500 player.
  
 I'd rather have a bullet to my head then get on board with Roon and DNLA/UpNP


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> "No, no, no, it's not complicated at all!"
> 
> "In this case you wouldn't need an endpoint like a microRendu running Roon as the Rednet device is the "endpoint" through the DVS. So it's PC with Roon Server + DVS -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC. Add a tablet or phone for remote control and you're done. Simple as that.  The PC that runs Roon Server+DVS can hold your music library or you could choose to load it from any other machine, like a NAS, in your network through SMB."
> 
> Not as simple as this PC>REDNET>DAC


 
  
 Honestly I don't see a difference between your chain: PC>REDNET>DAC and my suggested chain: PC (running DVS+Roon Server software) -> ethernet -> Rednet -> DAC.
  
 The only thing different is the music player, right?  You'll also need ethernet in between and the DVS software.


----------



## Acrobat77

occamsrazor said:


> Actually I think it is exactly that. With respect the network streaming capability of Ron is completely irrelevant as _we would not be using that function of it_.
> 
> When you say PC > Rednet > Dac
> 
> ...


 
 Exactly!


----------



## occamsrazor

occamsrazor said:


> Actually I think it is exactly that. With respect the network streaming capability of Roon is completely irrelevant as _we would not be using that function of it_.
> 
> When you say PC > Rednet > Dac
> 
> ...


 
  
 I just want to add that I'm not a crazed Roon fanboy. I tried it and was very impressed overrall, especially with the level and rate of software development and responsiveness to customer queries and feature requests which in my experience is pretty unparalled in the audiophile world.
 But in the end I decided the more "normal" player interface was more to my liking. Either way, there's a free 14-day trial for anyone to test it and see if it suits them.
  
 I just wanted to correct the impression you gave that Roon either wouldn't work or would be much more complicated to use _with Rednet_, which I don't feel would be the case. The network topology would be exactly the same as with any other player software.


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> That is too bad - but it does DNLA/UpNP.
> 
> So not all DNLA/UpNP players are compatible with Roon?
> 
> ...


 

 Nope!  Roon doesn't do/support UPnP, they "hate" the protocol as much as we do (and Alex Crespi who you've quoted a lot). Again, they've developped their own protocol which is RAAT.
  
 There's so many DAC's/DDC's out there that don't support Roon. Devialet for example doesn't even seem to want to consider it. People that want to use Roon would simply have to accept they can't use it with their current device so don't use it or switch to a different device that does support it. You can't really blame the DDC maker like Sonore, they probably designed the Signature Rendu before Roon existed/got "traction".


----------



## Acrobat77

Here's a great thread on the Roon forum in which they explain their views (they even admit feeling contempt to it ) on uPnP/DLNA: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/whats-wrong-with-upnp/2101


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Yes, I agree. I understand John Swensons theory and those of people like Rob Watts, Gordon Rankin etc. In my view I believe them when they say it all comes down to feeding the DAC the lowest noise signal using the highest quality clocks possible. Clean power, internal ground planes and proper isolation between the different domains is extremely important and all this goes for the internal circuits of the DAC itself just as well.
> 
> What I meant was that up to today I can't really understand why the USB input of the Devialet outperforms the ethernet input. It should be better but just isn't. Of course this must be because of the internal design of both interfaces though both are part of the same internal inferface card. But mind you, I no longer feel the need to understand, I've accepted it's true in my system, to my ears (though other confirm/have similar experiences) so am just glad I found other options that improved SQ without the direct need of buying a new DAC.
> 
> Regarding clean AC I also agree with that. I use a separate AC circuit (shared earth unfortunately) and employ a PS Audio P3 power plant (230V) which is powerful enough to power all the stuff and even my sub without noticing any constraints in dynamics.


 

 +1 I love to learn about the theory and design - feeds my inner geekhood.  But in the end it's my ears I trust.
  
 One point on the REDNET 3 - when I had it in my office system (Class A Tube Hybrid amp (Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil Recapping), Ref 3a Dulcet BE monitors.  I could hear a definite difference over a very decent USB chain.
  
 But it was in my main system running the very transparent Maggie 1.6QR's that the differences really stood out.  So my point on a very resolving system the SQ improvement from AES67 (as opposed to USB well done) just really stands out.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi RB
> 
> It's my understanding that ROON uses RAAT protocol, - which is a layer 3 protocol over UDP/UTP. It is not DLNA/UPnP
> 
> Not making any judgments about SQ, - I have no experience with Roon or AES67... I trust your testing & analyses.


 

 Yes, Roon RAAT is the old Apple Airplay - a nonDNLA UpNP protocol.  And promising.
  
 But history has shown expense propirtary stds will not grow into wide acceptance.  A niche market then seem to fade away or recede into the backgorund (Squeeze Box).
  
 So RAAT or no RAAT - a $500 player will always have a strong headwind to acceptance


----------



## rb2013

occamsrazor said:


> Actually I think it is exactly that. With respect the network streaming capability of Roon is completely irrelevant as _we would not be using that function of it_.
> 
> When you say PC > Rednet > Dac
> 
> ...


 

 Well yes - except you are paying $500 for a player per machine.  For me that would be $1000 - a machine at home and one at work.
  
 So that is a difference to me...


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Nope!  Roon doesn't do/support UPnP, they "hate" the protocol as much as we do (and Alex Crespi who you've quoted a lot). Again, they've developped their own protocol which is RAAT.
> 
> There's so many DAC's/DDC's out there that don't support Roon. Devialet for example doesn't even seem to want to consider it. People that want to use Roon would simply have to accept they can't use it with their current device so don't use it or switch to a different device that does support it. You can't really blame the DDC maker like Sonore, they probably designed the Signature Rendu before Roon existed/got "traction".


 

 But again you are locked into an expensive closed proprietary system.  If some great open source player comes along - to bad RATT with be Rats to you.
  
 That's my point.  A great business model to monetize what is other wise free or very low cost. 
  
 But if Roon-RATT is so universal and easy peasy plug and play - that'll be a piece of cake to use with the REDNET - as some keep claiming.
 How come it can't work with Sonore's own totl device??  Which does DNLA/UpNP?  Does Tidal, etc...
  
 If Roon-RATT (plus the bridge thing) is so plug and play  - can't Sonore just to a quick fix upgrade to the Signature to make it 'Roon-RATT' compatible?
  
 Something is rotten in Denmark...and it's not the cheese...
  
 Anyway you guys are free to spend hundreds on your Roon player- it ain't for me.  My music collection is far to large for their UI.  And if I want artist info or liner notes. My Asus tablet and wiki are ready to fill me in (and a lot more information and links then Roon provides) - free of charge.


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> +1 I love to learn about the theory and design - feeds my inner geekhood.  But in the end it's my ears I trust.
> 
> One point on the REDNET 3 - when I had it in my office system (Class A Tube Hybrid amp (Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil Recapping), Ref 3a Dulcet BE monitors.  I could hear a definite difference over a very decent USB chain.
> 
> But it was in my main system running the very transparent Maggie 1.6QR's that the differences really stood out.  So my point on a very resolving system the SQ improvement from AES67 (as opposed to USB well done) just really stands out.


 
  
 Same here, there's a geek or nerd whatever anyone wants to call me inside of me too. 
  
 I believe you/you guys that the Rednet sounds great. I've actually been really close to ordering a Rednet D16 AES thanks to you guys here!  But decided to wait a bit, the microRendu has only been in my system for three weeks and the PSU I searched and bought for it hasn't even arrived yet! Also there's a firmware update coming this month for the Mutec MC-3+ USB which Mutec claims will noticably improve SQ through better re-clocking (IIRC) algorithms.

 To be honest I was also very disappointed today reading the Rednets don't automatically switch between different sample rates when fed by DVS. This for me it, as someone called it, indeed a deal breaker. I do understand it though, being a pro-audio device (though the Mutec does it and it also is a pro-audio device of course. ).

 Perhaps I'll revisit the subject later, going to enjoy the current system for a while first.


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Same here, there's a geek or nerd whatever anyone wants to call me inside of me too.
> 
> I believe you/you guys that the Rednet sounds great. I've actually been really close to ordering a Rednet D16 AES thanks to you guys here!  But decided to wait a bit, the microRendu has only been in my system for three weeks and the PSU I searched and bought for it hasn't even arrived yet! Also there's a firmware update coming this month for the Mutec MC-3+ USB which Mutec claims will noticably improve SQ through better re-clocking (IIRC) algorithms.
> 
> ...


 

 Well for me the SR rate change is a non-issue.  The SQ on the other hand the best by a mile over any USB I have owned or heard (and boy that is a lot) And rather then have to spend thousands on a multi output LPS or a thousand on a music player - I can add a Mutec 3+ as a simple spdif reclocker for $800 and take the REDNET's already amazing SQ (already crushing the very best USB I could construct) to a whole other level.
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## Albrecht

> So RAAT or no RAAT - a $500 player will always have a strong headwind to acceptance


 
  
 Yep.
  
 I totally agree, and I dislike the "software/Apps model' that high end audio digital file playback designers are foisting us all into: (buy expensive software, become the company's QA dept., constantly charge for updates). 
 LMS is free, Roon, Amarra, Audiorvana, Pure Music, all crazy prices.
  
 Great that Dante/AES works on MACs, - but what do I do about a software player? Before my MacMini died, I used Pure Music, - no way am I EVER going to purchase ANYTHING from them again. I also cannot, & will not bring a PC into my home running a Microsoft OS.
  
 With ROON, I can install ROON Server on my NAS, - and it'll perform better than it would from the MAC in the basement running Roon Core.
  
 Question: is there good, free, software that will allow me to play music from the NAS drive, on the downstairs MAC, via AES67 to a Rednet 3?
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

occamsrazor said:


> I just want to add that I'm not a crazed Roon fanboy. I tried it and was very impressed overrall, especially with the level and rate of software development and responsiveness to customer queries and feature requests which in my experience is pretty unparalled in the audiophile world.
> But in the end I decided the more "normal" player interface was more to my liking. Either way, there's a free 14-day trial for anyone to test it and see if it suits them.
> 
> I just wanted to correct the impression you gave that Roon either wouldn't work or would be much more complicated to use _with Rednet_, which I don't feel would be the case. The network topology would be exactly the same as with any other player software.


 

 Well for me too - with near 3000 Redbook Albums alone  - the UI of Roon is pretty  - but just to unwieldy.  Not crazy for the meta data search function.
  
 I can find any artist in my collection, and a list of their albums, in seconds - or just scan through a list of all Jazz or all Fusion Jazz, or all Trio Jazz in seconds, etc...
  
 Still not sold on the easy plug and play nature of using Roon with REDNET.  But I'm sure someone will try it (and I believe we have a WIN2012 pioneer as well).
  
 So we'll see.  I hope you are right - for the sake of those who spent their money on Roon and want to try AOIP.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Yep.
> 
> I totally agree, and I dislike the "software/Apps model' that high end audio digital file playback designers are foisting us all into: (buy expensive software, become the company's QA dept., constantly charge for updates).
> LMS is free, Roon, Amarra, Audiorvana, Pure Music, all crazy prices.
> ...


 

 I believe Dante can do Multi-Cast over a LAN.  So use JR or Foobar or whatever works on a MAC.
  
 Or maybe Roon-RATT works with the REDNET 3?  We are in the nether regions of space here folks - not much to navigate from.  We are charting new ground.


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> But again you are locked into an expensive closed proprietary system.  If some great open source player comes along - to bad RATT with be Rats to you.
> 
> That's my point.  A great business model to monetize what is other wise free or very low cost.
> 
> ...


 

 True, something new and great, even free could come along, that's the gamble everyone has to take, or not. The same happens with all these USB gizmo's which are now perhaps going to be replaced by Dante hardware (although of course these still have resale value while software does not). And yes, they could even go out of business as well. Let's just hope it doesn't happen. To me they're fresh and 'welcome', good for competition. Considering the speed they're currently developing at I think many great things will still come.
  
 I was sceptical as well but since using it I'm "hooked" and don't want anything else. To be honest I'm still in my 2 month trial (using the coupon that came with the Jitterbug) but I will surely convert the trial to lifetime.

 The costs are very relative of course. The amounts of money spent by many audiophiles make these costs pale in comparison. My 0.8+0.2m Curious USB cables are even more expensive and I'm sure many can think of similar examples.  Anyway, I consider it a very subjective thing. We're all free to choose the things we like, it's "only" music/hobby, no need for criticising others on these choices (not saying you are BTW).

 Well, with a Rednet you won't be using RAAT. It's simply ASIO there or whatever output you currently use with your favorite player (WASAPI/Core Audio/...?) since DVS is a virtual soundcard. So you're not really 'locked in' in that regard.
  
 You can't use Roon with a Sonore Rendu Signature because this Sonore is an external device that only supports the uPnP protocol. Roon does not (not yet?) support uPnP. I'm assuming that Sonore has probably researched if the Signature Rendu internal hardware/software architecture could support the requirements to become a Roon Ready endpoint. Perhaps this isn't possible because of hardware constraints or other reasons. Only Sonore themselves can of course give the actual, real reason(s). I don't think/can't believe that they could have other "customer unfriendly" reasons to not support it.
  
 OK, going to do something else now. I need to be more "modest" and quiet on a first day on a new forum!


----------



## Albrecht

> We are in the nether regions of space here folks - not much to navigate from.  We are charting new ground.


 
  
 Yes,
  
 And worth repeating, - THANK YOU SO MUCH for going on this discovery mission, - and thank you for reporting back on all your work.
  
 Much gratitude!!!


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> True, something new and great, even free could come along, that's the gamble everyone has to take, or not. The same happens with all these USB gizmo's which are now perhaps going to be replaced by Dante hardware (although of course these still have resale value while software does not).


 
 I can sell these USB gizmos - as not everyone will want to spend so much on their audio as a REDNET costs.
  
 Try selling your Roon
  


> OK, going to do something else now. I need to be more "modest" and quiet on a first day on a new forum!


 
 No not at all - your input is valued and welcome.  I enjoy the debate - even if I get a bit snarky at times - just ignore that.
  
 With every one of these debates I learn a lot -and so do others I'm sure.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Well for me the SR rate change is a non-issue.  The SQ on the other hand the best by a mile over any USB I have owned or heard (and boy that is a lot) And rather then have to spend thousands on a multi output LPS or a thousand on a music player - I can add a Mutec 3+ as a simple spdif reclocker for $800 and take the REDNET's already amazing SQ (already crushing the very best USB I could construct) to a whole other level.
> 
> Enjoy!


 
  
 Likewise here, which is why I never tested it out once I had it set up.
  
 I sent mail to my rep at Sweetwater, asking if he knows or can ask one of his techs what (if anything) can be done to get the RN3 or D16 to switch sample rates without manual intervention. There may not be a way, but there could also be something we're missing.


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> Well for me the SR rate change is a non-issue.  The SQ on the other hand the best by a mile over any USB I have owned or heard (and boy that is a lot) And rather then have to spend thousands on a multi output LPS or a thousand on a music player - I can add a Mutec 3+ as a simple spdif reclocker for $800 and take the REDNET's already amazing SQ (already crushing the very best USB I could construct) to a whole other level.
> 
> Enjoy!


 

 Thanks, you too! And money is just money (as long as it comes out of the "disposable part" of an income of course and not the part you need to feed your children with ). I think you must have spent a lot in trying all these USB gizmo's and other 'USB uber chain' things too. I may end up with some Ravenna/Dante device in the future as well. And the PH PSU (which cost less than a thousand since I got a great deal on it ) may then still power some other component(s) in my system and if not I'll simply sell it again, simple!


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Yes,
> 
> And worth repeating, - THANK YOU SO MUCH for going on this discovery mission, - and thank you for reporting back on all your work.
> 
> Much gratitude!!!


 

 Thanks!  And we press forward!


----------



## Acrobat77

Yes, a thank you from me too! Great stuff here.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> Likewise here, which is why I never tested it out once I had it set up.
> 
> I sent mail to my rep at Sweetwater, asking if he knows or can ask one of his techs what (if anything) can be done to get the RN3 or D16 to switch sample rates without manual intervention. There may not be a way, but there could also be something we're missing.


 

 Thanks for doing that.
  
 I think the only solution for now is the re-sampling path I mentioned the free and easiest (and for me the best SQ - better then running native 44k that's for sure).

 The other may be to do away with DVS and use a DANTE BK2 PCIe card.  But that's another $600.  This will certainly lower the already min latency and may improve the SQ.  It should follow the PC as it changes SR.
  
 http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/258880-Klark-Teknik-KT-DANTE64?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&st-t=googleshopping-high_end_audio&vt-k=&vt-mt=&vt-pti=258880&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhN-6BRCJsePgxru9iIwBEiQAI8rq8-uFxPXRtTpQuzcObgDP1lqJ0704D5QAbF315GG1c30aAu1d8P8HAQ


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Yes, a thank you from me too! Great stuff here.


----------



## mhamel

acrobat77 said:


> Thanks, you too! And money is just money (as long as it comes out of the "disposable part" of an income of course and not the part you need to feed your children with ). I think you must have spent a lot in trying all these USB gizmo's and other 'USB uber chain' things too. I may end up with some Ravenna/Dante device in the future as well. And the PH PSU (which cost less than a thousand since I got a great deal on it ) may then still power some other component(s) in my system and if not I'll simply sell it again, simple!


 
  
 I didn't even notice it's your first day here. Welcome!


----------



## rb2013

https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-pcie-card
  

Driver support for OS X 10.8.5, 10.9.5, 10.10 and 10.11, plus Windows 7 (SP1), 8, 8.1, 10, Server 2008 R2 and *Server 2012 R2*
 
Standard soundcard interfaces to software applications


----------



## Muziqboy

I totally agree 100% with @rb2013 and  @mhamel regarding the SR rate change as a non-issue.
 Me being a true music lover, SQ comes first!
 Changing sample rates is just a couple of mouse clicks.


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> I totally agree 100% with @rb2013 and  @mhamel regarding the SR rate change as a non-issue.
> Me being a true music lover, SQ comes first!
> Changing sample rates is just a couple of mouse clicks.


 

 +1 Love your signature!
  
 Let me know if you see any well priced Mutec 3+ out there


----------



## rb2013

From my other thread:
  


> 2 hours, 51 minutes ago
> 
> [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/d7/100x100px-LS-d78bc21d_avatar-120-12.jpg[/img]
> 
> ...


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> +1 Love your signature!
> 
> Let me know if you see any well priced Mutec 3+ out there


 
  
 Thanks!
  
 I am actually tempted at this point to add another Mutec 3+ to daisy chain to the 1 I already have since reading in the CA thread regarding audiophiles experiencing SQ jumps with each addition.
 Some are even daisy chaining upto 4 Mutec's which is crazy. Well if I do and don't hear any improvement, I guess I can return it and just take the loss on the 15% restocking fee.
 Still thinking about it, but if I go ahead with it, I'll really be eating ramen for the rest of the year. lol
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Sanlitun

While I am waiting for the parts for a proper enclosure to arrive I made a super cheap dust cover out of a Ziploc container. It works well as F1 board fits in the container almost perfectly.
  

  

  

  
 So there's my contribution to this thread.


----------



## rb2013

sanlitun said:


> While I am waiting for the parts for a proper enclosure to arrive I made a super cheap dust cover out of a Ziploc container. It works well as F1 board fits in the container almost perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Zip tight!  Nice.


----------



## rb2013

So here is the screen shot of the REDNET Controller:
  
 As you can see there is no Master option for the PC (DVS) - marked 'Slave Only'  under preferred

  
 Now I bet with one of these Dante cards you would be able to set the PC as Master - $600 :
http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/258880-Klark-Teknik-KT-DANTE64?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&st-t=googleshopping-high_end_audio&vt-k=&vt-mt=&vt-pti=258880&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhN-6BRCJsePgxru9iIwBEiQAI8rq8-uFxPXRtTpQuzcObgDP1lqJ0704D5QAbF315GG1c30aAu1d8P8HAQ
  
 REDNET/Dante PCIe cards - they are more expensive:
https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-pcie-card
  
 I also found this tweek - set the bit rate 'Encoding' for the PC to 32 bits from 24 bits.  The DVS options should be set to 32 bits as well
 A bit nicer sounding:


----------



## ciphercomplete

rb2013 said:


> Now I bet with one of these Dante cards you would be able to set the PC as Master - $600 :
> http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/258880-Klark-Teknik-KT-DANTE64?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&st-t=googleshopping-high_end_audio&vt-k=&vt-mt=&vt-pti=258880&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhN-6BRCJsePgxru9iIwBEiQAI8rq8-uFxPXRtTpQuzcObgDP1lqJ0704D5QAbF315GG1c30aAu1d8P8HAQ
> 
> REDNET/Dante PCIe cards - they are more expensive:
> https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-pcie-card


 
  
 This was my thought as well but I would have to speak to someone in Rednet support to know for sure.  The Rednet PCI card manual says nothing about setting the PC as the master.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Definitely my fault for not reading the dimensions but at 17x10x4", I was definitely not expecting a receiver-sized unit. Jeezus I need to make some room!


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> This was my thought as well but I would have to speak to someone in Rednet support to know for sure.  The Rednet PCI card manual says nothing about setting the PC as the master.


 

 Yes it would be best to confirm with them - but does make sense to block the DVS-PC from being the Master clock - as the only clock is the crappy one on the motherboard.
  
 But with a full BK2 Dante card in the PCIe slot - then that's a different story.
  
 There is the 'SR Follow' function - but it has to have a Master clock to follow


----------



## mhamel

ciphercomplete said:


> This was my thought as well but I would have to speak to someone in Rednet support to know for sure.  The Rednet PCI card manual says nothing about setting the PC as the master.


 
  
  
 There are two applications.  Rednet Control and Dante Controller.  Dante Controller would be where you'd look to make the PC the master.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> Definitely my fault for not reading the dimensions but at 17x10x4", I was definitely not expecting a receiver-sized unit. Jeezus I need to make some room!


 

 Yes it's a Big, Beautiful Red Box of musical joy.
  
 It kinda reminds me of a Ferrari


----------



## ciphercomplete

mhamel said:


> There are two applications.  Rednet Control and Dante Controller.  Dante Controller would be where you'd look to make the PC the master.


 
  
 Its greyed out in the Dante controller.  So maybe adding the pci card would make the option selectable.  Ill leave that experiment for someone else though.  $1000 for the card


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> There are two applications.  Rednet Control and Dante Controller.  Dante Controller would be where you'd look to make the PC the master.


 

 I guess the question would be - if you installed a REDNET PCIe/PCIeR card - and run the Dante ASIO - could you then set the Rd 3 or 16d as slave to it as Master.  There are flow charts that show with a RD PCIe card the PC acts as the host and DAW.   Then use the SR Follow function on the RD3 or RD16
  
  
 See page 17 chart on the left of the REDNET System User Guide.
  
 https://us.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-3/downloads


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> https://www.audinate.com/products/manufacturer-products/dante-pcie-card
> 
> 
> Driver support for OS X 10.8.5, 10.9.5, 10.10 and 10.11, plus Windows 7 (SP1), 8, 8.1, 10, Server 2008 R2 and *Server 2012 R2*
> ...


 
  
 Woohoo!!!!
  
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> Its greyed out in the Dante controller.  So maybe adding the pci card would make the option selectable.  Ill leave that experiment for someone else though.  $1000 for the card


 

 I posted this - maybe you missed it:

  
 DVS Desktop PC "Slave Only", as I have already explained - with the DVS there is no clock to Master to.
  
 Seems like a lot of expense and trouble to save two mouse clicks - every blue Moon.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Woohoo!!!!
> 
> Thanks!


 

 Well that is at least a ray of hope - not saying that Focusrite REDNET does - but since it's using a Audinate Dante Brooklyn (or II) card - would seem it should work.


----------



## mourip

mhamel said:


> Likewise here, which is why I never tested it out once I had it set up.
> 
> I sent mail to my rep at Sweetwater, asking if he knows or can ask one of his techs what (if anything) can be done to get the RN3 or D16 to switch sample rates without manual intervention. There may not be a way, but there could also be something we're missing.


 
  
 I emailed them also asking the same question. They must be scratching their heads at the sudden interest.
  
 I am pretty sure we already know the answer... and it sounds like it is moot anyway based upon how happy everyone is 
  
 BTW. What are you setting your bit rate to? ....the 24/192 max of your Yggy?


----------



## drez

rb2013 said:


> Well for me the SR rate change is a non-issue.  The SQ on the other hand the best by a mile over any USB I have owned or heard (and boy that is a lot) And rather then have to spend thousands on a multi output LPS or a thousand on a music player - I can add a Mutec 3+ as a simple spdif reclocker for $800 and take the REDNET's already amazing SQ (already crushing the very best USB I could construct) to a whole other level.
> 
> Enjoy!




Specifically what are the USB setups you have heard? Details please.


----------



## somestranger26

drez said:


> Specifically what are the USB setups you have heard? Details please.


 

 Use the search. He has posted his list at least 10 times in this thread. http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/615#post_12531223


----------



## hopkins

I use a DSP processor to do active crossover. Is it possible to implement that with Dante directly on the PC side and output two channels, so I could get rid of my DSP?


----------



## mtoc

of course not, bro....


----------



## hopkins

Can't you send two channels through the network?


----------



## drez

somestranger26 said:


> Use the search. He has posted his list at least 10 times in this thread. http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/615#post_12531223


 
  
 Thanks for that.  Actually yeah that makes sense.  I would not find it surprising if Rednet 3 D/D sounds better than those specific D/D's based on USB/SPDIF.


----------



## mtoc

you have to crossover, dsp or not, you have to crossover, right?


----------



## hopkins

Yes but the are software crossover solutions available. The question is whether you can output two channel audio through a Dante network from a PC.


----------



## mhamel

mourip said:


> I emailed them also asking the same question. They must be scratching their heads at the sudden interest.
> 
> I am pretty sure we already know the answer... and it sounds like it is moot anyway based upon how happy everyone is
> 
> BTW. What are you setting your bit rate to? ....the 24/192 max of your Yggy?


 
  
 It depends on what I'm sending to it. If I'm listening to music, ASIO driver and 24/192.  I don't have a Yggy any more, though. I'm using a Dangerous Music Convert-2, which is also the master clock for my Dante network.
  
 If I'm using the PC for general stuff, I'll drop back to the WDM driver for compatibility and run it at 24/96, which still sounds excellent.


----------



## mhamel

hopkins said:


> Yes but the are software crossover solutions available. The question is whether you can output two channel audio through a Dante network from a PC.


 
  
 Yes, you can output two channels... that's what most of us are using it for. 
  
 Side note, dbx has a dsp box / speaker management solution that has direct Dante input now, too.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Finally got it working thanks to @Muziqboy's patience and helping me set it up and troubleshoot.

 I'll just say this for initial impression, whoever implemented the usb transport/connection for audio set the audio world back by however long it's been since they were implemented. (Read:should be shot). Lol.

 Amazing sq jump! I want to say the difference between the Rednet 3 and the stock USB on this Matrix mini-i (super mid-fi dac) is the same proportions as upgrading from a Schiit Bifrost MB to a Yggy. It's not subtle.
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






soundsgoodtome said:


> Definitely my fault for not reading the dimensions but at 17x10x4", I was definitely not expecting a receiver-sized unit. Jeezus I need to make some room!


 
  


rb2013 said:


> Yes it's a Big, Beautiful Red Box of musical joy.
> 
> It kinda reminds me of a Ferrari


 
  


muziqboy said:


> I totally agree 100% with @rb2013
> and  @mhamel
> regarding the SR rate change as a non-issue.
> Me being a true music lover, SQ comes first!
> Changing sample rates is just a couple of mouse clicks.


----------



## Muziqboy

soundsgoodtome said:


> Finally got it working thanks to [@=/u/430029/Muziqboy]@Muziqboy[/@]'s patience and helping me set it up and troubleshoot.
> 
> 
> I'll just say this for initial impression, whoever implemented the usb transport/connection for audio set the audio world back by however long it's been since they were implemented. (Read:should be shot). Lol.
> ...




USB ain't got nothin' on AOIP!!! :bigsmile_face:


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> This should answer any questions you have on the networking
> 
> https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/files/PDF/advanced-dante-networking-avnw-2015-audinate.pdf






@Muziqboy

We should all be careful to be more specific about the accolades for AoIP. It is the Focusrite / Audinate Dante implementation of AoIP that I believe is providing the superior results.

There are plenty of AoIP schemes available:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_network_protocols



Look at the link rb2013 kindly provided for a comparison of several competing Audio Over Ethernet technologies and look at the details that Audinate is claiming to make a superior data delivery. My suspicion is a listening evaluation of other AoIP implementations may not deliver the same level of auditory satisfaction. Looking forward to hearing the Focusrite D16 Dante VAC vs USB DDC (I have several), though it appears to be a non-stock item and I may be waiting awhile.


----------



## mourip

> @Muziqboy
> Looking forward to hearing the Focusrite D16 Dante VAC vs USB DDC (I have several), though it appears to be a non-stock item and I may be waiting awhile.


 
  
 If you are speaking of the D16 Sweetwater has them in stock. Most other dealers that list them seem to sell them but do not stock them...


----------



## hopkins

mhamel said:


> Yes, you can output two channels... that's what most of us are using it for.
> 
> Side note, dbx has a dsp box / speaker management solution that has direct Dante input now, too.




Sorry, I meant outputting 4 channels, not two, from a PC, which can only be done via a dedicated sound card. I thought maybe this was possible via the virtual sound card. Will look into it.


----------



## ccschua

my speculation is that with the pcie card it will further improve the sound.


----------



## rb2013

drez said:


> Specifically what are the USB setups you have heard? Details please.


 
 About time to update the ratings and rankings
  


somestranger26 said:


> Use the search. He has posted his list at least 10 times in this thread. http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/615#post_12531223


 
 Thanks for that link!  I did not save the page of the most recent rankings.
  
 So here is where I estimate we are today:
  
 Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
  
Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:
 
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ (SPDIF reclocker)                                                         235
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord                                                                               220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB               170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord                                                        155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2                                                   145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen                                                               135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious                                                                                   135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                                                                      130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2                                                    125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                                                                          110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                                                                   109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                                                                      108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                                                                              100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                                                                 95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                                                                    92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                                                                             85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                                                                          81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                                                                    76
Gustard U12 stock                                                                                                   72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                                                                      65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                                                                      65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                                                                              60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                                                                         50
M2Tech Hiface                                                                                                         40
 
Note the two major leaps - one by adding the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB Extender into the chain.  Then the bigger leap away from USB completely to the REDNET3 Dante AES67 AOIP.  The Mutec 3+ did not help as an ext Word Clock to the RD3 - but after the RD3 as a SPDIF reclocker - excellent.


----------



## atomicbob

hopkins said:


> Sorry, I meant outputting 4 channels, not two, from a PC, which can only be done via a dedicated sound card. I thought maybe this was possible via the virtual sound card. Will look into it.


 
 If you use JRiver MC you can use a VST plugin called metaplugin which can host a VST speaker management DSP and output to 4 channel streams. These streams can be mapped in Dante Virtual Audio Cable to four outputs on a Dante enabled device. You will need breakout cables to access the additional channels.


----------



## atomicbob

mourip said:


> If you are speaking of the D16 Sweetwater has them in stock. Most other dealers that list them seem to sell them but do not stock them...


 
 Thank-you. I received a status update and my D16 is in transit. Sometime next week to arrive.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> Finally got it working thanks to @Muziqboy's patience and helping me set it up and troubleshoot.
> 
> I'll just say this for initial impression, whoever implemented the usb transport/connection for audio set the audio world back by however long it's been since they were implemented. (Read:should be shot). Lol.
> 
> ...


 
 Cheers!  Completely agree - it's hard to put into words.  A Sea Change in SQ.  Like some hidden low level distortion is removed.  So liquid, musical, natural, flow, ease, smooth, warm, cuddly, 'sitting by the fire one cool winter morning sipping hot coffee' - kind of a sound .  Sorry ran out of adjectives...
  


muziqboy said:


> USB ain't got nothin' on AOIP!!!


 
 King USB is dead, long live King AOIP!


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > This should answer any questions you have on the networking
> ...


 

 Well I have to say looking at the Focusrite REDNET design - it is well made - but can certainly be improved (hoping with your suggestions) - notably the SMPS power supply.  So how long before the modding begins?
  
 I'm very excited about the Raveena AES67 AOIP implementation - at least how Merging Tech has done it - maybe, just maybe better?
  
 It would be a complete surprise and our luck - to just happen to serendipitiously find and buy the best AOIP possible.  Now there must be some issues with the Dante AOIP - aside from the minor operational annoyances found so far.  Things that can and will be improved down the line.
  
 I get the feeling this train is just leaving the station.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> my speculation is that with the pcie card it will further improve the sound.


 

 I think you are right there - not cheap though.  Certainly the latency will be lower.
  
 My next step is acquiring a Mutec 3+ for SPDIF reclocking - that definitely works to improve the SQ.
  
 Any word from DIYinHK on the PRo4a?  Should be soon.


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Well I have to say looking at the Focusrite REDNET design - it is well made - but can certainly be improved (hoping with your suggestions) - notably the SMPS power supply.  So how long before the modding begins?
> 
> I'm very excited about the Raveena AES67 AOIP implementation - at least how Merging Tech has done it - maybe, just maybe better?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I guess I am thinking of someone entering this thread and concluding generical AoIP is responsible for the results being described. Here is an example of a more generic AoIP solution:
 http://www.digigram.com/products/product_infos.php?prod_key=15350
 Any guesses as to how that AoIP solution compares to the ones being discussed, especially the Focusrite / Dante implementation? I'd be willing to bet that it may not delight the ears nearly as well as a better USB implementation.


----------



## auvgeek

Really bummed about no linux support.


----------



## rb2013

auvgeek said:


> Really bummed about no linux support.


 

 Hopefully at some point


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> I guess I am thinking of someone entering this thread and concluding generical AoIP is responsible for the results being described. Here is an example of a more generic AoIP solution:
> http://www.digigram.com/products/product_infos.php?prod_key=15350
> Any guesses as to how that AoIP solution compares to the ones being discussed, especially the Focusrite / Dante implementation? I'd be willing to bet that it may not delight the ears nearly as well as a better USB implementation.


 

 Well AoIP and AOIP are different.  The former is an actual std in video broadcasting.  The later I coined to reference AES67 Audio over IP.  The newly implemented AES67 is just a min set of stds for common communication on a shared LAN.  Audinate's Dante and Raveena - are both seperate protocols that exceed those stds, but can communicate with each other - and operate at Layer 3 over a LAN.  Certainly for 2 channel audio not requiring QoS GB switches. 
  
 There is another std AVB - that has not yet been formalized by IEEE.  It operates at layer 2 and does require special switches.
  
 I believe the device you linked to is a USB - LAN extender.  That is technically audio over IP - but with USB in the equation.  Like the ICRON/Startech USB LAN extenders.  And the upcoming PS Audio LANRover.  But what we have agreed (I believe) to mean when using the abbrev AOIP - is the true Ethernet only AES67 Audio over IP stds - Dante, RAVENNA and Livewire.
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67


> *AES67* is a standard for audio-over-IP interoperability. The standard was developed by the Audio Engineering Society and published in September 2013. It is a layer 3 protocol suite based on existing standards and is designed to allow interoperability between various IP-based audio networking systems such as RAVENNA, Livewire, Q-LAN and Dante


 
  
 Now there is another competeing and maybe compatible std also coming very soon.  That is Thunderbolt, which is now in it's third revision.  The TB3 also does audio over IP - but using a external PCIe std - with direct DMA access.  Now with MS and Intel support - TB 3 will move away from Apple's expensive prop cable to unify with USB 3.1 to the new USB-C connector, dropping costs.
  
 Focusrite also has an implementation of this - but only at the TB2 level (I'm sure working on a TB3 version)
 https://us.focusrite.com/clarett-range
  
 The Clarett Pre4 is cheaper then the REDNET 3 at $700 list - looks very interesting
 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Clarett4Pre?adpos=1o1&creative=93365752201&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjwp-S6BRDj4Z7z2IWUhG8SJAAbqbF3JtnraBjhNdbDQf858CSCGZtSsA4Olf3wVmfwOr_GlxoC
  
 Here is a link to the thread I started on Thunderbolt 3:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806121/thunderbolt-3-for-audio-is-this-the-next-computer-audio-standard


----------



## auvgeek

rb2013 said:


> Focusrite also has an implementation of this - but only at the TB2 level (I'm sure working on a TB3 version)
> https://us.focusrite.com/clarett-range


 
 Maybe a dumb question, but are you sure the line outs are spdif? Not analog out?
  
 Edit: nevermind. The 2Pre (which is the one I was looking at) doesn't have spdif, but the others do.


----------



## rb2013

auvgeek said:


> Maybe a dumb question, but are you sure the line outs are spdif? Not analog out?


 

 Yes - 

 And note the DC power input.  But no ASIO support  - so this is a no go for me.  But hoping on the next TB3 version it will have
  


> Plenty of ins and outs Clarett 4Pre offers a full 18 audio inputs and eight outputs, including four front-panel multi-function inputs, four independent line inputs and line outputs, stereo S/PDIF I/O and dual headphone outputs. There are also eight channels of ADAT-format digital input – ideal for adding eight channels of digital mic pre.


 
  
 Also no WIN support yet:


> Supported Operating Systems OSX 10.9 Mavericks, 10.10 Yosemite or 10.11 El Capitan
> Windows support coming soon – Please submit your e-mail address so that we can keep you up to date with more information.


----------



## auvgeek

^^See my edit above. I was looking at the 2 Pre because I don't need 4 inputs. Doh!
  
 But the 4 Pre seems like a great options for those with MBP laptops.
  
 Thanks for the quick reply to my dumb question!


----------



## rb2013

This is the big news for TB3:
  
Microsoft Announces Plans For Thunderbolt Support In Windows 10 Posted on January 29, 2016 by synthhead





Microsoft has announced plans to support Thunderbolt on Windows 10>



 Microsoft Windows Platform Evangelist *Pete Brown* has announced plans for *Thunderbolt*support in *Windows 10*.
 Microsoft will not officially support Thunderbolt 1 & 2 devices on Windows 10, though they may work with vendor support. They are focusing their support on Thunderbolt 3.


  
  
  
  
  
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2016/01/29/microsoft-announces-plans-for-thunderbolt-support-in-windows-10/


----------



## rb2013

auvgeek said:


> ^^See my edit above. I was looking at the 2 Pre because I don't need 4 inputs. Doh!
> 
> But the 4 Pre seems like a great options for those with MBP laptops.
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply to my dumb question!


 

 When they say MAC OS support  - do they mean Core Audio?  This will still be some time down the road.  But once WIN10 has full TB3 support could accelerate quickly.


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Well AoIP and AOIP are different.
> 
> /* much very good information deleted */
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67


 
 Guess I just want to stress that the standard doesn't necessarily guarantee great results. Important to note the particular implementations as well.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Guess I just want to stress that the standard doesn't necessarily guarantee great results. Important to note the particular implementations as well.


 

 Yes - agreed!  So far - so good.


----------



## auvgeek

rb2013 said:


> When they say MAC OS support  - do they mean Core Audio?  This will still be some time down the road.  But once WIN10 has full TB3 support could accelerate quickly.


 

 No idea. If I weren't planning to get rid of my MBP for a linux machine, I'd give it a try.


----------



## Acrobat77

mhamel said:


> I didn't even notice it's your first day here. Welcome!


 
  

 Thank you!


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> I think you are right there - not cheap though.  Certainly the latency will be lower.
> 
> My next step is acquiring a Mutec 3+ for SPDIF reclocking - that definitely works to improve the SQ.
> 
> Any word from DIYinHK on the PRo4a?  Should be soon.


 
  
 About the "Mutec 3+" you mention here (but elsewhere as well including your score lists), there's of course the Mutec MC-3+ and the Mutec MC-3+ USB which I believe you tested. The latter is not just a MC-3+ with an USB port. Functionally it is but it's a newer version which also had an internal re-design for better re-clocking and overall performance. I remember one person who had three MC-3+ which could be replaced with one MC-3+ USB offering the same SQ performance.
  
 There's much more information and detail in the Mutec MC-3+ thread on CA (which after some pages also starts to discuss the MC-3+ USB). http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/mutec-mc-3-a-17300/


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> About the "Mutec 3+" you mention here (but elsewhere as well including your score lists), there's of course the Mutec MC-3+ and the Mutec MC-3+ USB which I believe you tested. The latter is not just a MC-3+ with an USB port. Functionally it is but it's a newer version which also had an internal re-design for better re-clocking and overall performance. I remember one person who had three MC-3+ which could be replaced with one MC-3+ USB offering the same SQ performance.
> 
> There's much more information and detail in the Mutec MC-3+ thread on CA (which after some pages also starts to discuss the MC-3+ USB). http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/mutec-mc-3-a-17300/


 

 Thanks - I believe that Mutec upgraded the MC-3+ and the MC-3+ USB with their new 1G clock.
  
 I would of course just get the MC-3+ and save $300 - the USB board is a rather generic XMOS U-8 (previous generation XMOS) with std XO clocks.  The F-1 is a superior design using the latest 1000MIPS XU208 (in addition to twice the 500MIPS U-8's performance - other enhancements as well), and the totl Crystek ultra low phase noise CCHD-575 clocks.
  
 Here is the board that mutec adds to the MC-3+ for the additional $300:

  
 Here is the $180 XU208 F-1:

  
 PS And don't plan on daisy chaining 3 or four these as some suggest on that CA thread - or using an ext atomic clock.  If you remember we kicked that idea around a while back.  Mike had a great link discussing ext atomic clocks.


----------



## Acrobat77

Both the MC-3+ and MC-3+ USB have this 1G clock tech. 
  
 All I'm saying: the MC-3+ USB could be significantly better than the MC-3+ even if you don't use the USB input.


----------



## mtoc

Still waiting OP doing his PSU mod on his rednet


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Both the MC-3+ and MC-3+ USB have this 1G clock tech.
> 
> All I'm saying: the MC-3+ USB could be significantly better than the MC-3+ even if you don't use the USB input.


 

 ???  But why would Mutec do that?  Everything I can tell they are the same as SPDIF reclockers - in fact removing the noisy USB board might be an improvement


----------



## rb2013

mtoc said:


> Still waiting OP doing his PSU mod on his rednet


----------



## rb2013

rb2013 said:


> ???  But why would Mutec do that?  Everything I can tell they are the same as SPDIF reclockers - in fact removing the noisy USB board might be an improvement


 

 You may be right though - from Mutec website:
 http://mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php#description


> This is what MUTEC’s proprietary re-clocking algorithm paired with the 1G-Clock technology provides at the highest level! Our MC-3+ Smart Clock already impressed critics and users around the world, and the *MC-3+USB now marks the next generation of re-clocking by MUTEC. Extreme oversampling of incoming data allows the audio to be recombined and merged with a newly generated ultra-low jitter clock signal at ultimate precision,* enhancing the re-clocked audio with unparalleled richness of details, spatiality, and musicality.


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> You may be right though - from Mutec website:
> http://mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php#description


 
  
 Yes, I didn't make it up or just hypothesize about it.  That's why I linked to the topic in which all the details are shared by a Mutec associate (Julian David) who is actively participating in that topic as well. Besides this there are user reports confirming improved SQ.
  
 There's many reasons I can think of why they'd improve on the MC-3+ with the MC-3+ USB. First they're a company of engineers and engineers generally strive for excellence but there's of course the sales side as well. You can charge more for a better product and better products can sell better. They could trigger current MC-3+ owners to upgrade to the new model and they could attract/convince more new buyers. New marketing for a new model can also be used to create interest in a wider target audience (like us audiophiles now).
  
 PS: I've seen you posting pictures of the MC-3+ (blue PCB) and the MC-3+ USB (red PCB) so it's easy to see at least superficial changes as well (these of course tell very little about SQ, plus they remove many IC markings, but it's just visible they're not "the same")


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> You may be right though - from Mutec website:
> http://mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php#description




I sent an email to Mutec asking if the 3.1+ could be upgraded with the new Technology as used in the 3.1+USB.

Will let you know the answer.

Cheers


----------



## perry7996

rb2013 said:


> About time to update the ratings and rankings
> 
> Thanks for that link!  I did not save the page of the most recent rankings.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi,
 the MX-U8 is the latest version(XU208) or older than 1.7?
 because I'm thinking buy the MX-U8 XU208 or the SU-1


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> About the "Mutec 3+" you mention here (but elsewhere as well including your score lists), there's of course the Mutec MC-3+ and the Mutec MC-3+ USB which I believe you tested. The latter is not just a MC-3+ with an USB port. Functionally it is but it's a newer version which also had an internal re-design for better re-clocking and overall performance. I remember one person who had three MC-3+ which could be replaced with one MC-3+ USB offering the same SQ performance.
> 
> There's much more information and detail in the Mutec MC-3+ thread on CA (which after some pages also starts to discuss the MC-3+ USB). http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/mutec-mc-3-a-17300/


Yeah but it kinda sucks to sell their old technology and not update it.

It's also somewhat deceptive to call them both MC-3+ Smart Clocks. The USB version should called something like 3.1+, or Smart Clock II.

I posted those pics to show the PS upgrades.


----------



## Albrecht

Hey RB,
  
 With the RedNet 3 + Mutec, does the Mutec reclocker also have BNC-type connectors for the ins & outs that correspondingly connect to the RedNet?
  
 & are you still using your 1.5m AudioSensibility Statement SE S/PDIF Digital Cable for your comparisons? Right now, - i have a 1m APL built SPDIF cable, - that "fits" nicely. I don't think that this is an all silver cable, - and with the rest of my system, I've found that some silver cables make things a bit thin in the midrange.... just curious, - and thanks in advance...
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

perry7996 said:


> Hi,
> the MX-U8 is the latest version(XU208) or older than 1.7?
> because I'm thinking buy the MX-U8 XU208 or the SU-1


The U-8 version. I had many QC issues with Melodious and would avoid them.


----------



## wushuliu

I know us poor F-1 owners are now second fiddle but wanted to post a quick update: with the F-1 I2S to the soekris dac I no longer really need the Icron Lan. It definitely contributes, but the sound quality is so good without it that it's not worth the $500 in my setup. Luckily there is still time to return to Amazon...
  
 Next up is the DIYINHK XU216 I2S board. Curious how it will compare to the F-1...
  
 The soekris though... soooo good for the money.


----------



## FredA

wushuliu said:


> I know us poor F-1 owners are now second fiddle but wanted to post a quick update: with the F-1 I2S to the soekris dac I no longer really need the Icron Lan. It definitely contributes, but the sound quality is so good without it that it's not worth the $500 in my setup. Luckily there is still time to return to Amazon...
> 
> Next up is the DIYINHK XU216 I2S board. Curious how it will compare to the F-1...
> 
> The soekris though... soooo good for the money.




Just placed an order for the f-1 and will run it with i2s, with shortest rj45 possible, no socket. One of the ebay sellers had it for 150 usd or so shipped. Great deal.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> I know us poor F-1 owners are now second fiddle but wanted to post a quick update: with the F-1 I2S to the soekris dac I no longer really need the Icron Lan. It definitely contributes, but the sound quality is so good without it that it's not worth the $500 in my setup. Luckily there is still time to return to Amazon...
> 
> Next up is the DIYINHK XU216 I2S board. Curious how it will compare to the F-1...
> 
> The soekris though... soooo good for the money.


 

 Nice!  Sounds like they go well together.


----------



## BucketInABucket

Btw, WZ is sending me a new F1 to replace my broken one. He sent me a tracking number that didn't work; hopefully, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow I'll get one that actually works.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hey RB,
> 
> With the RedNet 3 + Mutec, does the Mutec reclocker also have BNC-type connectors for the ins & outs that correspondingly connect to the RedNet?
> 
> ...


 

 Yes they both have 75 ohm BNC for Word Clock in/out.  Of course for SPDIF reclocking you would use those in/out RCA or AES connectors.
  
 Yes the 1.5M AS Statement digital cable.  The best I have heard yet.
  
 Tried the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme digital - no way.  Sent it back after a week burnin.  The AS Statement smoked it.
  
 Would like to try a Siltech or Purist - but they are like $1000-$8000.  Aint going there.
  
 Might give this one a try:
 https://www.thecableco.com/Product/Signature-Tuned-Array-Digital


----------



## Albrecht

> Yes the 1.5M AS Statement digital cable


 
  
 Cool,
  
 Thanks much, RB!! And thanks too for re-releasing your rankings with the Rednets. I see them coming to my house in the not to distant future....
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

On the difference between the Mutec 3+ and 3+ USB:


> 02-08-2016, 12:34 PM  #146
> *SwissBear*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Cool,
> 
> Thanks much, RB!! And thanks too for re-releasing your rankings with the Rednets. I see them coming to my house in the not to distant future....
> 
> Cheers,


 

 Had a long conversation with BURL today.
  
 They are working with another company (not Audinate) on a AOIP solution (AES67 ethernet) - he told me the name, but it slips me now.
  
 I mentioned the interest in the REDNET 3 and 16d and suggested that maybe they could do something similar.  He would pass that up the chain.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Now there is another competeing and maybe compatible std also coming very soon.  That is Thunderbolt, which is now in it's third revision.  The TB3 also does audio over IP - but using a external PCIe std - with direct DMA access.  Now with MS and Intel support - TB 3 will move away from Apple's expensive prop cable to unify with USB 3.1 to the new USB-C connector, dropping costs.
> 
> Focusrite also has an implementation of this - but only at the TB2 level (I'm sure working on a TB3 version)
> https://us.focusrite.com/clarett-range
> ...


 
  
  King AOIP is dead, long live King Thunderbolt 3!


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> King AOIP is dead, long live King Thunderbolt 3!


 

 Alex you are a joker!  LOL!  I love ya bro'
  
 But as the Prince of Vaporware 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (just ribbing you) - you should know that TB 3 is a little ways off.   Not quite a unicorn - but let's say a pink pony...
  
 But you see they converge as AOIP!  So King AOIP does live and is getting stronger and bigger...but alas poor King USB UAC - I knew him well...anyone need a slightly used Regen?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
- http://www.audiomediainternational.com/recording/feature-investigating-interface-protocols/04655


> One connection protocol that is ubiquitous on both Apple- and Windows-based machines is Ethernet. Currently mainly in use for distributed audio and large-scale networked systems, the protocol has been championed by Merging Technologies. “*There are a number of audio-over-IP protocols now established in the pro-audio market that use Ethernet as the connection – the main players being Ravenna, Dante and Livewire*,” details Paul Mortimer, managing director of Merging’s UK distributor eMerging. *“Compatible devices can be connected using a simple point-to-point connection or via an existing standard IT network infrastructure.* “The main advantages of Ethernet-based formats are the ability to run much longer distances between devices; *being able to take audio signals from one source and route to many destinations*; and sample accurate clocking from one master device on the network. *Thunderbolt 2 and USB 3 offer the ability to connect to Ethernet, so would also be compatible with networked audio devices. With the introduction of AES67, all of these audio-over-IP formats will talk to each other, so enabling one harmonious compatible format.”*


----------



## occamsrazor

rb2013 said:


> Had a long conversation with BURL today. They are working with another company (not Audinate) on a AOIP solution (AES67 ethernet) - he told me the name, but it slips me now.
> 
> I mentioned the interest in the REDNET 3 and 16d and suggested that maybe they could do something similar.  He would pass that up the chain.


 
  
 When you say "...on a AOIP solution", I'm not clear on what this would be a solution to.... do you mean a small 2-channel AOIP interface? Or what would be the intended purpose/functionality? Interesting they would be looking at a non-Dante solution given they already have their Dante AD and DA converters. If you have any further info or details it would be very interesting to hear....


----------



## occamsrazor

> Any word from DIYinHK on the PRo4a?  Should be soon.


 
  
 Sorry, I've lost track of what is what with all these USB/SPDIF converters and can't find any references online to the Pro4a..... what is the Pro4a model supposed to be? Is this different than this one?
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html
  
 Thanks


----------



## abartels

occamsrazor said:


> > Any word from DIYinHK on the PRo4a?  Should be soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 it should be successor of this one:
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html


----------



## occamsrazor

abartels said:


> it should be successor of this one:
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html


 
  
 Ah I see, so the Pro4a might be a "complete box" implementation of the board I linked, do you think?


----------



## abartels

occamsrazor said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > it should be successor of this one:
> ...


 
 no, it's based on completely different hardware:


----------



## rb2013

occamsrazor said:


> When you say "...on a AOIP solution", I'm not clear on what this would be a solution to.... do you mean a small 2-channel AOIP interface? Or what would be the intended purpose/functionality? Interesting they would be looking at a non-Dante solution given they already have their Dante AD and DA converters. If you have any further info or details it would be very interesting to hear....


 
 A non-Dante AES67 protocol to across all their studio gear - not Ravenna or Livewire. I was driving so I could not write down what he had said.
  
 He did say they had complained to Audiante about the SR auto switching issue with Dante.
  


occamsrazor said:


> Sorry, I've lost track of what is what with all these USB/SPDIF converters and can't find any references online to the Pro4a..... what is the Pro4a model supposed to be? Is this different than this one?
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html
> 
> Thanks


 
 Yes it is a small box plug and play - I had the Pro3a.  It was very nice (see my rankings), using NDK SD clocks (one of the first Chinese to use better clocks - along with Tanly), and low noise regulators.  They have dropped hints on the next version - guessing called the Pro4a - that it will be based on the XU216 and have a isolation scheme like the F-1.
  
 It was to be out this month.  I had a Pro3a that had a failed ext power switch (another nice feature - ext power port).  I sent it back, they told me I would get one of the first product units of the new version.
  
 So I have that coming to check out.
  
 Here is the board of the previous version -


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> no, it's based on completely different hardware:


 
 You beat me to it!  But that is two versions ago.  See my photo to see the last version with the ext power switch
  
 Cheers


----------



## justbenice

Hi,
 I want to upgrade my Amanero board in my ES9018 DAC to XU208 F-1 , i wonder where is the best price to get it ? Ebay is currently selling at 179$  
 And i have some questions : 
 - My Amanero board is using dedicate  power supply, not the 5V come with usb line, can this XU208 F-1 using dedicate 5V power too ? 
 - This XU208 F-1 have isolation technology , does dual chip ISO7641FM make this isolation? 
 - I see the 2 Crystek clock, but it was in the S / PDIF side of the board, if i only using i2s output, will this 2  crystek clock re-clock the i2s signal too ? Or it only for the S / PDIF section ?
  
 Regards!


----------



## somestranger26

justbenice said:


> Hi,
> I want to upgrade my Amanero board in my ES9018 DAC to XU208 F-1 , i wonder where is the best price to get it ? Ebay is currently selling at 179$
> And i have some questions :
> - My Amanero board is using dedicate  power supply, not the 5V come with usb line, can this XU208 F-1 using dedicate 5V power too ?
> ...


 

 1. I think so. Someone removed the isolating DC-DC converter and used their own power supply. You could also connect the 5V from your DAC to where the 5V pin comes in on the USB, but it probably won't sound as good
 3. It is for both. AFAIK I2S is generated first using those clocks for clock generation and then converted to SPDIF. It would sound awful if they were not used for I2S.


----------



## justbenice

somestranger26 said:


> 1. I think so. Someone removed the isolating DC-DC converter and used their own power supply. You could also connect the 5V from your DAC to where the 5V pin comes in on the USB, but it probably won't sound as good
> 3. It is for both. AFAIK I2S is generated first using those clocks for clock generation and then converted to SPDIF. It would sound awful if they were not used for I2S.


 
 Thank you !
 My DAC have a dedicate R-core and a lineair board for the  Amanero board only, it clean and dedicate power, now i want to use it for the F-1 board,  so i have to cut the power in of the usb line and replace it with 5v from my dedicate lineair power , right ?


----------



## hopkins

You can get an adapter to do that. They are cheap, if you don't feel like making one yourself.


----------



## justbenice

hopkins said:


> You can get an adapter to do that. They are cheap, if you don't feel like making one yourself.


 
 Yes but i want to isolation the power come from usb line and put everything inside my DAC. The R-core, the lineair power board, the F-1 board, everything insde my DAC .


----------



## rb2013

justbenice said:


> Yes but i want to isolation the power come from usb line and put everything inside my DAC. The R-core, the lineair power board, the F-1 board, everything insde my DAC .


Use a VBUS blocker, or use a modded JB to one. I have an extra, and looking to sell it. I cut the +5VDC power and ground pin. It improved the sound quality.


----------



## Octagon

bucketinabucket said:


> Btw, WZ is sending me a new F1 to replace my broken one. He sent me a tracking number that didn't work; hopefully, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow I'll get one that actually works.




Hi BucketInABucket,

you might use the Global page of DHL, www.dhl.com. At the right side you find two buttons named "express" and "logistics". Put your tracking number in the field under "express".
The second solution would be to search via "shippers reference number". The moment a shipping has been adviced to DHL it is available there. The national pages are updated much later. In addition you find here much more precise data including custom process etc.

My experience is that this works well with wz's shipping numbers as with any others.

Take care
Thomas


----------



## rw35

Got the 'Rev C' W4S Recovery board working with the F-1... circa 80 hours of continuous play on both.
  
 Last night was a fairly big music session but not once did I feel the performance matched going from the W4S directly into the VEGAs USB input.
  
 My gut here is the Aurender puts out an extremely good signal and thus some of the stuff that helps computers does not help very good dedicated servers. Also the USB module of the VEGA must also be very good.
  
 I have felt for quite a while that my digital playback is nearing max attainable SQ - I've said a few times now that it's time to stop meddling and the last two things I tried have degraded, rather than improved SQ.
  
 I think that AOIP is going to be brilliant when it goes domestic but it seems at least in my system USB_ is _capable of sonic magic.
  
 I wonder if Aurender will adopt AOIP, if so then I'll go for it for sure.
  
 One thing of note is that Michael @ Audiostream said he could not note any difference between the Aurender N10s USB and Coax playback, which leads me to believe that Aurender got their USB tech very well designed and built.
  
 I'll keep the F-1 for my computer, where it will no doubt excel.
  

  
 PS it's nice to see so many people happy with their systems, this is a very positive thread, full of great info.
  
  
 ---
  
*Source:*
 *Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS) > Curious short USB link > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed) > *Auralic VEGA (balanced)

*Control:*
 *Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

*Playback:*
 2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz high pass filtered from subs)

*Misc:*
 *Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator
 LPS: 2 x Swagman Lab Audiophile SE (W4S & FMC) & 1 x SMSL P1 (Intona power injection)
 Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM
 Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)
 Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen


----------



## justbenice

rb2013 said:


> Use a VBUS blocker, or use a modded JB to one. I have an extra, and looking to sell it. I cut the +5VDC power and ground pin. It improved the sound quality.


 
 hi,
 What is VBUS blocker and what is modded JB ?


----------



## BucketInABucket

octagon said:


> Hi BucketInABucket,
> 
> you might use the Global page of DHL, www.dhl.com. At the right side you find two buttons named "express" and "logistics". Put your tracking number in the field under "express".
> The second solution would be to search via "shippers reference number". The moment a shipping has been adviced to DHL it is available there. The national pages are updated much later. In addition you find here much more precise data including custom process etc.
> ...


 
 I got a royal mail tracking number, not a DHL one. Anyone else have experience with that?


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Got the 'Rev C' W4S Recovery board working with the F-1... circa 80 hours of continuous play on both.
> 
> Last night was a fairly big music session but not once did I feel the performance matched going from the W4S directly into the VEGAs USB input.
> 
> ...


 

 The Vega board and implementation is really top notch.    I would suggest two things that made a very large improvement for me - feed the Recovery a high quality ext LPS power source (9VDC), use a Curious 200mm link in between the F-1 and the Recovery, last (but maybe the best) a iPurifier2 right into F-1 between the W4S and F-1.   
  
 Yes we live in extraordinary audio times! The raving reviews on the AOIP REDNET gear are already showning up on my AOIP thread.  Beating out the Mutec MC-3+ USB  - tough competition.
  
 Cheers Mate!


----------



## rb2013

justbenice said:


> hi,
> What is VBUS blocker and what is modded JB ?


 

 It blocks the +5VDC output of the PC right it's USB port.  So no impedance or noise modulation with the data stream in the USB cable or plug.
  
 Modded Jitterbug


----------



## justbenice

rb2013 said:


> It blocks the +5VDC output of the PC right it's USB port.  So no impedance or noise modulation with the data stream in the USB cable or plug.
> 
> Modded Jitterbug


 
  
 Thank you. but it was not a solution i need.
 I emailed ask Singxer about this and acttually it was very simply, i just need to de-soldering the input usb port then cut the 5v connector. Soldering it back and take 2 line from the board out to connect to my 5v Lineair supply.


----------



## wushuliu

justbenice said:


> Thank you. but it was not a solution i need.
> I emailed ask Singxer about this and acttually it was very simply, i just need to de-soldering the input usb port then cut the 5v connector. Soldering it back and take 2 line from the board out to connect to my 5v Lineair supply.


 
  
 But will you be able to desolder the usb port without damaging the board?


----------



## rw35

rb2013 said:


> The Vega board and implementation is really top notch.    I would suggest two things that made a very large improvement for me - feed the Recovery a high quality ext LPS power source (9VDC), use a Curious 200mm link in between the F-1 and the Recovery, last (but maybe the best) a iPurifier2 right into F-1 between the W4S and F-1.
> 
> Yes we live in extraordinary audio times! The raving reviews on the AOIP REDNET gear are already showning up on my AOIP thread.  Beating out the Mutec MC-3+ USB  - tough competition.
> 
> Cheers Mate!


 

 rb,
  
 I want to join your party, but I can't let go of the Aurender... fingers crossed they will also adopt AOIP, as it does make a lot of sense to me.
  
 For now, the music is washing over me like a super tube and I'm glad you've found a similar result.


----------



## wushuliu

rw35 said:


> rb,
> 
> I want to join your party, but I can't let go of the Aurender... fingers crossed they will also adopt AOIP, as it does make a lot of sense to me.
> 
> For now, the music is washing over me like a super tube and I'm glad you've found a similar result.


 
  
 On another forum a member found some improvement with the F-1 and their microrendu but I suspect not as big a difference as from a PC usb, so perhaps the F-1 is not so critical from other sources. Or the Xmos drivers are optimized for PC usb. Thanks for your input.


----------



## rw35

wushuliu said:


> On another forum a member found some improvement with the F-1 and their microrendu but I suspect not as big a difference as from a PC usb, so perhaps the F-1 is not so critical from other sources. Or the Xmos drivers are optimized for PC usb. Thanks for your input.


 
  
 Cheers mate,
  
 ... make no mistake, for the coin, the F-1 is a fabulous product regardless.


----------



## justbenice

wushuliu said:


> But will you be able to desolder the usb port without damaging the board?


 
 Yes, i modded alot of things in my DAC myself.  I kind of the men who know how to do but i need to know what to do


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> rb,
> 
> I want to join your party, but I can't let go of the Aurender... fingers crossed they will also adopt AOIP, as it does make a lot of sense to me.
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

justbenice said:


> Yes, i modded alot of things in my DAC myself.  I kind of the men who know how to do but i need to know what to do


I have a F1 for $100, it has i2s only (pins attached) but no sprig. It was part of a project to build into my dac, it would only fit with the spdif socket rca cut off.

Yours if you want to use it for your project. PM if interested


----------



## johnjen

So I'm soon to be another RedNet-3 user here in Seattle.
  
 I'm already figuring on upgrades and I haven't even got my hands on on my RN3 box yet…
  
 Talk about having an itch and not even questioning whether to scratch it…
  
 So I'll be comparing it via coax SPDIF, AES, and Lifatec optical cables.
  
 Plus I'm gunna tweak the fuse and throw some WAQy chips at it as well, just because…
  
 Yeah I'm committed or should that be, I should be committed… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> So I'm soon to be another RedNet-3 user here in Seattle.
> 
> I'm already figuring on upgrades and I haven't even got my hands on on my RN3 box yet…
> 
> ...


 
  
 And the RedNet club keeps growing!
  




 Cheers!


----------



## somestranger26

johnjen said:


> So I'll be comparing it via coax SPDIF, AES, and Lifatec optical cables.
> 
> Plus I'm gunna tweak the fuse and throw some WAQy chips at it as well, just because…


 
 The fuses I can understand, but those WA Quantum chips sound like total BS to me. Putting a fancy $10 sticker on a fuse is supposed to improve the sound?


----------



## johnjen

I was skeptical as well, until I tried one on a fuse.
 They cost $7.50 for the 5mm WAQy chip.
 I figured I could return them if they weren't an improvement, I have yet to do so.
  
 And I use other versions of their chips as well.
 And they have yet to fail to not make a significant change for the better to any piece of gear I have added them to.
 Perhaps this all digital device won't be improved, but my DAC sure took a major step up…
  
 So I'm willing to experiment to see what happens.
  
 I'm like that, I like to try stuff and see what happens, which explains why I have a RN3 inbound.
  
 JJ
 ps if interested in trying these out for yourself VH Audio has them.
  
 JJ


----------



## Mogos

I have a question to the D16 users. Did you tray to e.g. send a 96kHz signal, upsample it in the unit up to 192kHz and than feed the DAC? Have you heard any benifits of doing so?  I understand the D16 can upsample the signal up to 192kHz.


----------



## rb2013

johnjen said:


> So I'm soon to be another RedNet-3 user here in Seattle.
> 
> I'm already figuring on upgrades and I haven't even got my hands on on my RN3 box yet…
> 
> ...


 That'll be interesting! AOIP all the way!


----------



## rb2013

mogos said:


> I have a question to the D16 users. Did you tray to e.g. send a 96kHz signal, upsample it in the unit up to 192kHz and than feed the DAC? Have you heard any benifits of doing so?  I understand the D16 can upsample the signal up to 192kHz.


I believe the SRC is on the inputs only.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> I believe the SRC is on the inputs only.




And that means: "not available on the LAN-input" !?

Cheers


----------



## Iving

I have had a Gustard U12 for nearly a year and have been happy with its audio credentials. Lately I have noticed a hum - audible from a few inches to a few feet depending on ordinary ambient noise - which is present whenever an electrically live USB device is attached - this includes a battery powered tablet PC and, so, I rule out ground loop(s). The hum is not present when the Gustard is powered (mains) but no USB device is attached. I would like to know: 1) whether this is normal for this unit - can other owners advise? - and, since I suspect not; 2) whether it is something simple that can be fixed (easily enough hopefully by me).
  
 I have contacted the ebay Seller (along1986090) who is unresponsive - even to requests for contact info for the manufacturer. Can I claim under warranty?
  
 A replacement may be in the offing. I don't have much of a budget at the moment since I have bought other stuff (including a second power amp and a cartridge) very recently. This thread is enormously helpful. I am looking for the right DDC only at this time since I don't have the funds for power supplies etc. Aside from USB input it must have coax out - that is about the only absolute requirement. I don't fancy USB-powered. The SU-1 (encased version of the F-1 with added LPS) seems to fit the bill - even though I will have to find extra cash for it. I will use a Regen before it and an old but erstwhile state-of-the-art DAC after it (so upsampling only to 88.2 khz at most). My system needs taming rather than brightening.
  
 TIA for all constructive remarks.


----------



## Iving

I have had a Gustard U12 for nearly a year and have been happy with its audio credentials. Lately I have noticed a hum - audible from a few inches to a few feet depending on ordinary ambient noise - which is present whenever an electrically live USB device is attached - this includes a battery powered tablet PC and, so, I rule out ground loop(s). The hum is not present when the Gustard is powered (mains) but no USB device is attached. I would like to know: 1) whether this is normal for this unit - can other owners advise? - and, since I suspect not; 2) whether it is something simple that can be fixed (easily enough hopefully by me).
  
 I have contacted the ebay Seller (along1986090) who is unresponsive - even to requests for contact info for the manufacturer. Can I claim under warranty?
  
 A replacement may be in the offing. I don't have much of a budget at the moment since I have bought other stuff (including a second power amp and a cartridge) very recently. This thread is enormously helpful. I am looking for the right DDC only at this time since I don't have the funds for power supplies etc. Aside from USB input it must have coax out - that is about the only absolute requirement. I don't fancy USB-powered. The SU-1 (encased version of the F-1 with added LPS) seems to fit the bill - even though I will have to find extra cash for it. I will use a Regen before it and an old but erstwhile state-of-the-art DAC after it (so upsampling only to 88.2 khz at most). My system needs taming rather than brightening.
  
 TIA for all constructive remarks.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> And that means: "not available on the LAN-input" !?
> 
> Cheers


Yes AES inputs only


----------



## rb2013

iving said:


> I have had a Gustard U12 for nearly a year and have been happy with its audio credentials. Lately I have noticed a hum - audible from a few inches to a few feet depending on ordinary ambient noise - which is present whenever an electrically live USB device is attached - this includes a battery powered tablet PC and, so, I rule out ground loop(s). The hum is not present when the Gustard is powered (mains) but no USB device is attached. I would like to know: 1) whether this is normal for this unit - can other owners advise? - and, since I suspect not; 2) whether it is something simple that can be fixed (easily enough hopefully by me).
> 
> I have contacted the ebay Seller (along1986090) who is unresponsive - even to requests for contact info for the manufacturer. Can I claim under warranty?
> 
> ...


I bet it's the cheaper transformer the Gustard uses. I have a really nice Breeze DU-U8 with the upgraded Talema transformer. I also upgraded the RCA spdif to a totl WBT NexGen Cu. You can buy it if you want to replace the Gustard. Or anyone else. It's a major step up from the Gustard. PM me.

Need to raise funds for a Mutec to use a spdif reclocker.


----------



## mourip

mogos said:


> I have a question to the D16 users. Did you tray to e.g. send a 96kHz signal, upsample it in the unit up to 192kHz and than feed the DAC? Have you heard any benifits of doing so?  I understand the D16 can upsample the signal up to 192kHz.


 
  
 You can only choose one bit rate at a time for the D16 and need to do so manually. If you have any 192k material and want to avoid the trouble of changing the bit rate manually then you might want to consider setting your player to upsample everything to 192k. In this way the D16 will play anything at least up to 192K.
  
 I set JRMC to upsample everything to 192K and set the D16 to the same and I am not a fan of upsampling. The results are much better than I could have possibly imagined.
  
 I did need to tweak some of the latency setting to get it to work and I have the PC ethernet connected directly to the first D16 port and the second D16 port connected to my LAN so that I can remote the PC. You can set the D16 ethernet ports to either function as a switch or to provide redundancy to your PC/DAW. I believe that the default is the switch behavior so that allows you to get to your LAN from your PC. 
  
 Hope I got this right ...but either way it sound remarkable. It provides the music with a correctness that just was not there before. My theory is that for some reason it help maintain the original phase relationships better than USB.
  
 Please do not ask me to prove that


----------



## johnjen

When my RN3 is fully functional and settled in, I figure I'll try setting the output from Jriver to a whole bunch of different sample rates just to see what I notice.
  
 I love experimenting by fussing with the knobs and buttons, and of course hardware tweaks…
  
 Oh, does anyone know what the fuse in the RN3 is?
 I can see it’s a 5mm size fuse but the value and type (slow/fast blow) would be helpful…
 And if no one knows and/or doesn't feel like investigating, that's ok, I'll know by the end of this week… 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 JJ


----------



## rb2013

johnjen said:


> When my RN3 is fully functional and settled in, I figure I'll try setting the output from Jriver to a whole bunch of different sample rates just to see what I notice.
> 
> I love experimenting by fussing with the knobs and buttons, and of course hardware tweaks…
> 
> ...


Welcome aboard! I don't know on the fuse, but will get a SR Tesla to replace it.

Have a Mutec MC-3 USB coming soon, to reclock the spdif, that made a real difference when I had a loaner a while ago.

This AOIP is just blowing me away in SQ, at least the RN3 is.

Cheers!

PS Running everything at 192k, working flawlessly. 24/7 now for a week straight.


----------



## johnjen

Thanks!
  
 Yeah I'm also a fan of the SR Tesla fuses myself.
 I figure its probably a 0.25amp fuse or somewhere in this range.
  
 And once I get a handful of different digital cables gathered together (AES, toslink optical, SPDIF) and I'm ready to compare them, that's when the fun begins.
  
 And once a digital format is declared the 'winner', then I'll start drilling down to see which cables among that group are 'keepers'.
 But thus far your recommendation of that Audio Sensibility Statement silver cable sure pushes the right buttons so far…  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for the giant step up in SQ that this digital signal format is providing, my spidey sense has been ringing off the hook since I first heard about it.
 And ever since my order went in, the tingling in my head won't stop enticing me, kinda like what those sirens were doing before I took the plunge, only now its incessant.
 And the last time my spidey sense started clanging, the Jggy was due to be released.
  
 I figure this unfolding AOIP is but a necessary prelude to really uncorking the Jggy…
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Interesting times in Audio, indeed…
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

Fuse inside the RN3 is a T2A250V not sure if a slow or fast blow but it has a thick spring like coil.
 Just replaced mine with a Audio Horizons Platinum Reference that I have lying around.


----------



## jabbr

muziqboy said:


> Fuse inside the RN3 is a T2A250V not sure if a slow or fast blow but it has a thick spring like coil.
> Just replaced mine with a Audio Horizons Platinum Reference that I have lying around.




A T fuse is a slow fuse.

See here for the meaning of fuse markings: https://www.swe-check.com.au/pages/learn_fuse_markings.php

Cheers


----------



## johnjen

Excellent, kewl!
  
 I'm gunna snag that page, very handy.
  
 But that means it’s a 2 amp fuse for sure.
  
 That's mighty big for a 30VA rated device.
  
 JJ


----------



## johnjen

I just ran across this page describing the RedNet design decisions with regard to sound quality and how they implemented them in hardware.
 https://global.focusrite.com/rednet/the-sound-of-rednet
  
 Its fully balanced all the way thru and thru.
 Interesting…
  
 JJ


----------



## Muziqboy

johnjen said:


> I just ran across this page describing the RedNet design decisions with regard to sound quality and how they implemented them in hardware.
> https://global.focusrite.com/rednet/the-sound-of-rednet
> 
> Its fully balanced all the way thru and thru.
> ...


 
  
 So that explains the very high degree of transparency that I am hearing with the RedNet 3.
 Very interesting indeed. A very well designed and built device.


----------



## Acrobat77

Well of course the 'fully balanced design' is not applicable to the Rednet 3 since it's 100% digital, there's no A/D or D/A conversions performed in it. The only part of that article applicable is the part about clocking.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi guys, I am new to this thread, seeking your guidance 
  
 I was looking into buying Intona Isolator and also considered Uptone Regen, and finally came across this unit. Can anyone comment which one does the best job among these three? If anyone has tried all of these at some point?
  
 Thanks
 LR


----------



## rb2013

johnjen said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yeah I'm also a fan of the SR Tesla fuses myself.
> I figure its probably a 0.25amp fuse or somewhere in this range.
> ...


 

 If you get the AS Silver Statement be sure ot order the 1.5M - as it's reported to be the optimal length for a spdif digital cable.  That length minimizes back wave reflections.
  
 I'm going to order a Blue Jeans 1.5M Spdif for between the RN3 and the Mutec 3 USB -then the AS Statement from the Mutec to my DAC.
  
 So you have a Yggie?


----------



## rb2013

johnjen said:


> I just ran across this page describing the RedNet design decisions with regard to sound quality and how they implemented them in hardware.
> https://global.focusrite.com/rednet/the-sound-of-rednet
> 
> Its fully balanced all the way thru and thru.
> ...


 

 Nice!


----------



## rb2013

lord raven said:


> Hi guys, I am new to this thread, seeking your guidance
> 
> I was looking into buying Intona Isolator and also considered Uptone Regen, and finally came across this unit. Can anyone comment which one does the best job among these three? If anyone has tried all of these at some point?
> 
> ...


 

 Regen works well with the F-1.  As it reclocks, and have ultra low noise regulators - it's fed from an ext power supply.
  
 The intona - I have not had.


----------



## Lord Raven

rb2013 said:


> Regen works well with the F-1.  As it reclocks, and have ultra low noise regulators - it's fed from an ext power supply.
> 
> The intona - I have not had.


 
  
 You are suggesting that I should put Regen in front of F-1? I was looking for a single unit solution :/


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Well of course the 'fully balanced design' is not applicable to the Rednet 3 since it's 100% digital, there's no A/D or D/A conversions performed in it. The only part of that article applicable is the part about clocking.


 

 This I found interesting and could be why the REDNET's sound so good:


> As a result, the Dante system needed to be upgraded to meet Focusrite’s specifications. *Discussions with Audinate resulted in Focusrite’s decision to augment the original Dante system with a highly stable clocking system to make external interfacing a reality.* *The obvious choice, as it is already employed successfully in Focusrite equipment, was JetPLL®. The use of JetPLL ensures that whatever the quality of a clock coming in from outside into the RedNet system, it would be cleaned up, resulting in minimal jitter in the audio band.* In addition, it would also clean up jitter in network clocks. Thus when the peer-to-peer timing protocol (PTP) clock is distributed around the system, because each unit has a JetPLL clock, its level of jitter becomes irrelevant. “What we made sure,” Simon notes, “is that one of the major issues that digital systems have, namely audio jitter, was knocked on the head.”


 
  

  
*Connectivity*
 • ADAT Optical inputs 1 – 8 via TOSLINK optical connectors: Each connector supports 8 channels at 44.1 or 48k, 4 channels at 96k (S-MUX2), and 2 channels at 192kHz (S-MUX4)*
 • ADAT Optical outputs 1 – 8 via TOSLINK optical connectors: Each connector supports 8 channels at 44.1 or 48k, 4 channels at 96k (S-MUX2), and 2 channels at 192kHz (S-MUX4)*
 • AES/EBU inputs and outputs 1 – 8 via DB25 connector (replaces port one of the ADAT inputs when in use)
 • S/PDIF input 1 – 2 via coaxial port (replaces one AES bank when in use)
 • S/PDIF output 1 – 2 via coaxial port
 • Word Clock input via BNC port
 • Word Clock output via BNC port
 • Dante Ethernet port
 * When running at 44.1 or 48kHz, ADAT input ports 5 – 8 are disabled and ADAT output ports 5-8 mirror output ports 1-4

 *Inputs*
 AES/EBU inputs
 8 channels, with switchable SRC
 AES/EBU connector
 25-way female Dsub, wired to AES 59 (combined I/O)
 ADAT inputs
 32 channels @ 44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 kHz sample rate; 16 channels @ 192 kHz
 ADAT connectors
 TOSLINK lightguides x 8
 S/PDIF input
 2 channels, with switchable SRC 44.1 to 192 kHz
 S/PDIF connector
 Phono (RCA) socket
 *AES/EBU Input Sample Rate Converters*
 Input sample rate range
 32 to 216 kHz
 Gain error
 -0.3 dB
 Dynamic Range
 > 138 dB (-60 dBFS method)
 THD+N
 < -130 dB (0.00003%); 0 dBFS input
 *Outputs*
 AES/EBU outputs
 8 channels, sync-locked to RedNet system sample rate
 AES/EBU connector
 See “Inputs”
 ADAT outputs
 32 channels @ 44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 kHz sample rate; 16 channels @ 192 kHz
 ADAT connectors
 TOSLINK lightguides x 8
 S/PDIF output
 2 channels, sync-locked to RedNet system sample rate
 S/PDIF connector
 Phono (RCA) socket
 *Operating Modes*
 AES/EBU mode
 AES/EBU inputs – Chs. 1 to 8; ADAT inputs – Chs. 9 to 32*; AES/EBU outputs – Chs. 1 to 8; ADAT outputs – Chs. 1 to 32*
 ADAT mode
 ADAT inputs – Chs. 1 to 32*; AES/EBU outputs – Chs. 1 to 8; ADAT outputs – Chs. 1 to 32*
 *Digital Performance*
 Supported sample rates
 44.1 / 48 / 88.2 / 96 / 192 kHz
 Clock sources
 Local or from network master device
 Local clock sources
 Internal, Word Clock input, AES input 1, ADAT input 1, S/PDIF input
 External word clock range
 Sample rate ±7.5%
 *Power*
 PSU
 Internal, 100 - 240 V, consumption 30 VA


----------



## rw35

lord raven said:


> Hi guys, I am new to this thread, seeking your guidance
> 
> I was looking into buying Intona Isolator and also considered Uptone Regen, and finally came across this unit. Can anyone comment which one does the best job among these three? If anyone has tried all of these at some point?
> 
> ...


 

 They are all *very* different devices, if you are using a computer then AOIP (RedNet or similar) seems to bypass most of the electrical troubles that computers generate, thus sound quality is reportedly improved by a good margin.
  
 If you have a well designed non standard computer based music server (such as Aurender) you almost certainly won't be able to use AOIP. Both the W4S Recovery and Intona Industrial are excellent for extracting the last available bit of USB performance from these devices.
  
 (W4S Recovery smokes the Regen as a re-locker)


----------



## Lord Raven

rw35 said:


> They are all *very* different devices, if you are using a computer then AOIP (RedNet or similar) seems to bypass most of the electrical troubles that computers generate, thus sound quality is reportedly improved by a good margin.
> 
> If you have a well designed non standard computer based music server (such as Aurender) you almost certainly won't be able to use AOIP. Both the W4S Recovery and Intona Industrial are excellent for extracting the last available bit of USB performance from these devices.
> 
> (W4S Recovery smokes the Regen as a re-locker)


 
 I am using a laptop HP Envy DV6 7300ex 
  
 Now I have four products in the mixer  W4S Recovery, Intona Isolator, Uptone Regen, F-1!
  
 With each question I ask, I go further away from the dream Isolator/Reclocker LOL
  
 Thank you for your feedback, I will definitely consider W4S now, when I was buying my first DAC, I considered W4S DAC2 but I could not afford it, so I went for Geek Pulse SFi. I think it is my second chance to own something from W4S!!!!
  
 Intona was not really made for audio, but people started using it and they claim that it is better than Regen. F-1 guys claim that they are better than Intona and Regen. I am heading to W4S forum next


----------



## rb2013

lord raven said:


> I am using a laptop HP Envy DV6 7300ex
> 
> Now I have four products in the mixer  W4S Recovery, Intona Isolator, Uptone Regen, F-1!
> 
> ...


 

 Well just to be clear the F-1 is a DDC and the other gizmos are USB reclockers and isolators.

 So the F-1 is needed to do the USB to SPDIF/i2s conversion - the other devices are used in conjunction with the F-1 to improve the SQ by dealing with USB issues.


----------



## Albrecht

> F-1 guys claim that they are better than Intona and Regen. I am heading to W4S forum next


 
  

 Hi,
  
 I am not so sure about that. IMO, the only thing that you need is the F-1 and the ICRON isochronous Gigabit LAN USB extender. I would just use those in conjunction with the F-1 and see where i wind up. If the ICRON doesn't make every other box obsolete, it diminishes their effectiveness. If I hadn't already traveled down the microRendu route, - I'd have one. And I may still move the microRendu to another room, - and use PSAudio's LanRover when it comes out.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not so sure about that. IMO, the only thing that you need is the F-1 and the ICRON isochronous Gigabit LAN USB extender. I wouldn't just use those in conjunction with the F-1 and see where i wind up. The ICRON doesn't make every other box obsolete, it diminishes their effectiveness. If I hadn't already down of going the microRendu route, - I'd have one. And I may still move the microRendu to anther room, - and use PSAudio's LanRover when it comes out.
> 
> Cheers,


 

 Down the rabbit hole you go!  Add another to the list ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USb extender.
  
 He should start at the beginning of the thread read through.


----------



## Lord Raven

This is insane, I am new to all these terms and technologies. I don't even know if I would hear something with my old and buzzing ears.
  
 The data rate, is it effected as it passes through an reclocker? For example, if I play a DSD and the reclocker can only process at 29/96, in the case of W4S?


----------



## manishex

Don't know whether to get the SU-1 or F-1+ICRON GB LAN USB extender.
 Would the ICRON USB extender remove the need for an LPS (e.g. terdak 30w)?


----------



## jabbr

lord raven said:


> This is insane, I am new to all these terms and technologies. I don't even know if I would hear something with my old and buzzing ears.
> 
> The data rate, is it effected as it passes through an reclocker? For example, if I play a DSD and the reclocker can only process at 29/96, in the case of W4S?




Are you sure you want to pursue the best best possible SQ then?
There is no silver bullet that is best for all, and would IMHo be a waste of time (and money) if your kit or your ears cannot proces / sense the differences. 
What is the purpose than?


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 What are using the Teradak 30w LPS for?
  
 Personally, - I think that the ICRON gigabit LAN will likely alleviate the need to
  
 1. have your computer anywhere near the audio rack
 2. deploy the Regen, Intona, Jitterbug, and/or reclocker, - (especially used with the F-1).
  
  
 The F-1 already provides some degree isolation, plus a very good re-clocking upon the conversion from USB to SPDIF.
  
 YMMV on whether or not, or how much, W4s reclocker or a Mutec may provide. May be worth it. But if a significant part of your goal is to remove boxes while getting superior playback, - the best place to start is getting the computer very far away.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not so sure about that. IMO, the only thing that you need is the F-1 and the ICRON isochronous Gigabit LAN USB extender. I would just use those in conjunction with the F-1 and see where i wind up. If the ICRON doesn't make every other box obsolete, it diminishes their effectiveness. If I hadn't already traveled down the microRendu route, - I'd have one. And I may still move the microRendu to another room, - and use PSAudio's LanRover when it comes out.
> 
> Cheers,




So you are not satisfied with the microRendu?


----------



## Albrecht

> So you are not satisfied with the microRendu?


 
  
 Hi,
 No, just the opposite. I am completely enamored with the microRendu. The detail, soundstaging, tonal accuracy, quiet, and balance of the microRendu constitutes the best redbook playback I've had in my system. It's either better, or indistinguishable from playing CDs. Never happened before with my APL. If I try the LanRover when it comes out, - we'll see how much benefit that provides, - by allowing the microRendu will hide with the NAS.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Albrecht

> Down the rabbit hole you go!


 
  
 It's so bad, I might as well buy a top hat and magic mushrooms: just to further & complete my isolation.
  
 The CFO isn't very happy.....


----------



## rb2013

manishex said:


> Don't know whether to get the SU-1 or F-1+ICRON GB LAN USB extender.
> Would the ICRON USB extender remove the need for an LPS (e.g. terdak 30w)?


 

 No that is just to 'clean' up the data leg of USB - the F-1 still needs to have a very clean LPS power source.
  
 The ICRON GB LAN ISo Audio would likely work with the SU-1 as well.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> No, just the opposite. I am completely enamored with the microRendu. The detail, soundstaging, tonal accuracy, quiet, and balance of the microRendu constitutes the best redbook playback I've had in my system. It's either better, or indistinguishable from playing CDs. Never happened before with my APL. If I try the LanRover when it comes out, - we'll see how much benefit that provides, - by allowing the microRendu will hide with the NAS.
> 
> Cheers,


 

 And you are using the F-1 for the USB side right?  What kind of power source?


----------



## Albrecht

My F-1 has no power source other than the USB output of the microRendu.
  
 F-1 up there with the best $187 I ever spent on audio.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> My F-1 has no power source other than the USB output of the microRendu.
> 
> F-1 up there with the best $187 I ever spent on audio.
> 
> Cheers,


 

 Nice - I believe Uptone included some of the Regen tech (for USB gremlins) in the microRendu


----------



## Albrecht

> I believe Uptone included some of the Regen tech (for USB gremlins) in the microRendu


 
  
 Yes, John Swenson co-designed the hardware, & built in Regen tech into the microRendu. It is my understanding that John was very active in the "Community Squeeze" project that was working on & promoting the Squeezebox/LMS platform when Logitech bailed in late 2012.
  
 Sonore (Jesus) developed the operating system called sonicorbiter, and Small Green Computer built them.
  
 Granted, I didn't optimize my former MacMini as much as I could've, - but the microRendu renders the MacMini into a bad joke comparatively.
 I am also glad to be off the software model, (& overemphasis of the importance of software), where there are upgrades that you have to pay for, plus often hardware upgrades needed for the new software, plus the customer becoming the QA dept. for the software developer who releases the product incomplete. Not going to name any names, but I passed on 3 different products because my research yielded major issues that I was unwilling to tolerate.
  
 All that being said, and not to completely change the subject, - I am psyched to get down to comparing my APL SPDIF 1.0 meter SPDIF with a new 1.5m Statement SE silver. (Thanks again for all of your tips & posting your discoveries).


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> Nice - I believe Uptone included some of the Regen tech (for USB gremlins) in the microRendu




I've seen you write this before but the microRendu is a Sonore product not an Uptone Audio product. John Swenson has designed products for both companies. He receives royalties per device sold and IIRC also is IP (intellectual property) owner and that's why there's in effect an improved Regen part of the microRendu.

Edit: Albrecht beat me to it!  I also love the microRendu BTW.


----------



## rw35

albrecht said:


> The CFO isn't very happy.....


 
  
 LOL


----------



## Lord Raven

Ok what is a microRendu that everyone is loving?  I am sure I can hear detail, I am addicted to it as a matter of fact. 
  
 Can I get the link please, to review or a sale? Thanks/LR


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Yes, John Swenson co-designed the hardware, & built in Regen tech into the microRendu. It is my understanding that John was very active in the "Community Squeeze" project that was working on & promoting the Squeezebox/LMS platform when Logitech bailed in late 2012.
> 
> Sonore (Jesus) developed the operating system called sonicorbiter, and Small Green Computer built them.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the background info.  All those pay for s/w upgrades are a nuisance...love free Foobar!
  
 Anyway will try a BJC 1.5M digital to feed the Mutec 3+ USB as spdif reclocker - then the AS statement to the DAC.


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> I've seen you write this before but the microRendu is a Sonore product not an Uptone Audio product. John Swenson has designed products for both companies. He receives royalties per device sold and IIRC also is IP (intellectual property) owner and that's why there's in effect an improved Regen part of the microRendu.
> 
> Edit: Albrecht beat me to it!  I also love the microRendu BTW.


 

 Never said it was an Uptone product - of course it's Sonore - I've linked to about 10 times already.
  
 Like some other folks you love to correct what I never said. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Let me restate - that under a licensing agreement between John Swenson and Sonore - sub paragraph f of the co-licensing and IP agreement there it states a co-revenue model for co-commitment revenue sharing in term of a per unit de facto, ipso facto, agreement, not to be misunderstood as a product of the first part, but only a product of the second party - with the right to disclose that such an IP sharing agreement in public forums, with the implied and explicate consent of all parties to the agreement, respective of sub section a,c,d, and e provisions.
  
 That better?
  
 Dude you must be a lawyer!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 This kind of nit picky duchiness is better suited to CA.


----------



## rb2013

Anyway the microrendu has a very limited list of players - unlike the Dante open protocol:
  
 I will direct quote this from Sonore's website - so mister DB doesn't get to do his nit picking dance
  


> *SELECTABLE OUTPUT MODES*
> Mode #1 - SqueezeLite Output - This output works with any Logitech Media Server and compatible controllers. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM and DSD/DoP.
> 
> Mode #2 - ShairPort Output - This is an AirPlay emulator that utilizes streams sent to it from a compatible source. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM.
> ...


 
 Lets' see Roon is $500 licensing fee, HQ Player a little more reasonable at $147.59, etc...
  
 You can build one of these for $29 I guess -
 http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/my-29-squeezebox-replacement-raspberry-pi-picoreplayer-squeezelite.364422/


----------



## murphythecat

rb2013 said:


> Anyway the microrendu has a very limited list of players - unlike the Dante open protocol:
> 
> I will direct quote this from Sonore's website - so mister DB doesn't get to do his nit picking dance
> 
> ...


 
 have you tried hq player. ive read often that it possibly gives better SQ then foobar, jriver, ect


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Just to report, the Schiit Wyrd and Singxer F1 is an impressive combination. This for the price is excellent. I think this is as good if not better than the mutec 3+ usb by itself as a transport.. 

(Furman conditioner in front of all devices)


----------



## atomicbob

soundsgoodtome said:


> Just to report, the Schiit Wyrd and Singxer F1 is an impressive combination. This for the price is excellent. I think this is as good if not better than the mutec 3+ usb by itself as a transport..
> 
> (Furman conditioner in front of all devices)


So have you tried the U12 as USB to AES DDC and sent AES to the MC-3+ and then AES to the Ygg? Really sounds quite remarkable.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I no longer have the mutec on loan Bob, during my loan time (about a month ago) I never even thought of using the mutec as a reclocker. 

The comparison is memory based but this f1/Wyrd combo is impressing me more than the mutec.


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> Anyway the microrendu has a very limited list of players - unlike the Dante open protocol:
> 
> I will direct quote this from Sonore's website - so mister DB doesn't get to do his nit picking dance
> 
> ...




I had this concern initially too about software costs, so I asked for cheaper options. 

Logitech Media Server is free and works with the microrendu in squeezelite mode.


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> have you tried hq player. ive read often that it possibly gives better SQ then foobar, jriver, ect


 

 No as it requires the NAA as well.  It was tied to this h/w as a way of monetizing the s/w side.
  
 I much prefer an open - free player.  Anyway the SQ of Foobar is excellent as many have commented.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> I no longer have the mutec on loan Bob, during my loan time (about a month ago) I never even thought of using the mutec as a reclocker.
> 
> The comparison is memory based but this f1/Wyrd combo is impressing me more than the mutec.


 

 I didn't either - but will as the Mutec 3+ USB is heading back to me.  To be used as a SPDIF reclocker on my REDNET 3.
  
 I have most of the uber USB chain in my office system - so will try it there.  I'm using a W4S Remedy spdif reclocker there now to good effect (bought it for $250 on Audiogon).


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> I had this concern initially too about software costs, so I asked for cheaper options.
> 
> Logitech Media Server is free and works with the microrendu in squeezelite mode.


 

 Can you output this to any player and use any hardware (DDC/DAC)? Or do you have to use SB gear?
  
 I think that RPi $29 deal - hacks SB s/w too - but does not work as an open source.


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> No as it requires the NAA as well.  It was tied to this h/w as a way of monetizing the s/w side.
> 
> I much prefer an open - free player.  Anyway the SQ of Foobar is excellent as many have commented.


 
 The concept behind the HQ Player is that you offload the CPU-intensive tasks of processing to a, well, better CPU (your computer) rather than let your DAC do it. This also means that you can continually change processing algorithms as they are updated by the developer, and this has been done a few times already- a 'closed-form' filter to mimic the Yggy's methodology, for example, has been added in the past few months. 
  
 The HQ Player (with Gauss1 dithering algorithm) gave a significant improvement to my Yggy. I have heard that it made an audible difference to my friend's setup (Chord Dave) as well, and in general makes the biggest difference to mid to low-fi DACs where algorithms may be very limited due to poorer processing power, for example.
  
 It is free for thirty days- try it, if it doesn't make a difference, delete it and don't lose any sleep over it.


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> Can you output this to any player and use any hardware (DDC/DAC)? Or do you have to use SB gear?
> 
> I think that RPi $29 deal - hacks SB s/w too - but does not work as an open source.


 
 The Logitech Media Server is freeware and can be installed on any number of O/S including Linux, Mac and Windows: http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/?ver=7.8
  
 So your laptop should work.


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> The Logitech Media Server is freeware and can be installed on any number of O/S including Linux, Mac and Windows: http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/?ver=7.8
> 
> So your laptop should work.


 

 Thanks for the link - so after I install that - then I can use Foobar in Windows with the microrendu/F-1?


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the link - so after I install that - then I can use Foobar in Windows with the microrendu/F-1?


 
 No, I think in this scenario the LMS (not Foobar) would play music that the microRendu will stream. The F-1 would need to support Squeezelite mode (like the microRendu) for it to be a suitable endpoint here.


----------



## atomicbob

Is there a version of the *Singxer F-1 XU208 *that supports AES/EBU output?


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> No, I think in this scenario the LMS (not Foobar) would play music that the microRendu will stream. The F-1 would need to support Squeezelite mode (like the microRendu) for it to be a suitable endpoint here.


 

 That is what I meant by 'open source' - open to any player (that is not tied to a proprietary business model).  And DDC or DAC.
  
 And you are still left with USB in equation with the microrendu.
  
 So glad to be moving away from USB.  The SQ of AOIP is blowing me away each night as the REDNET 3 burns in.
  
 Just gets better and better each day.  Like a TGV train vs a steam locomotive - no comparison.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Is there a version of the *Singxer F-1 XU208 *that supports AES/EBU output?


 

 Yes the SU-1


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> That is what I meant by 'open source' - open to any player (that is not tied to a proprietary business model).  And DDC or DAC.
> 
> And you are still left with USB in equation with the microrendu.
> 
> ...


 
 I think the guys at F-1, for example, would need to do some work support it, just like they would have needed to support any other format. They didn't. That doesn't make it a model that's not open in my opinion.
  
 PS, my original answer was in context to the microRendu, and how there was a free option to play music to it. Roon and HQPlayer are popular among many for different reasons, but I would understand if some simply prefer to just go with the LMS.


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> About time to update the ratings and rankings
> 
> Thanks for that link!  I did not save the page of the most recent rankings.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank-you for the pointer to the Singxer SU-1 and for the relative ranking chart.
 I am guessing that SPDIF was mostly used for this relative ranking and AES/EBU not auditioned, nor toslink, correct?
 So there is unlikely to be any auditions comparing AES/EBU to SPDIF or Gustard U12 to Singxer SU-1 using AES/EBU, correct?
 Currently I am experiencing the U12 USB to AES/EBU to MC-3+ reclocking to AES/EBU to Yggdrasil and discovering a remarkable improvement over U12 USB DDC alone, and AES/EBU an improvement over SPDIF, at least in my system. Have a Rednet D16 on the way. Curious if I should consider the SU-1 as a more transportable solution.


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> I think the guys at F-1, for example, would need to do some work support it, just like they would have needed to support any other format. They didn't. That doesn't make it a model that's not open in my opinion.
> 
> PS, my original answer was in context to the microRendu, and how there was a free option to play music to it. Roon and HQPlayer are popular among many for different reasons, but I would understand if some simply prefer to just go with the LMS.


 

 I think many more would just like to use the player that they are currently using to good effect - like JRMC, Foobar, XXHighEnd, JPlay, etc...
  
 And not have to change players each time they change h/w.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Thank-you for the pointer to the Singxer SU-1 and for the relative ranking chart.
> I am guessing that SPDIF was mostly used for this relative ranking and AES/EBU not auditioned, nor toslink, correct?
> So there is unlikely to be any auditions comparing AES/EBU to SPDIF or Gustard U12 to Singxer SU-1 using AES/EBU, correct?
> Currently I am experiencing the U12 USB to AES/EBU to MC-3+ reclocking to AES/EBU to Yggdrasil and discovering a remarkable improvement over U12 USB DDC alone, and AES/EBU an improvement over SPDIF, at least in my system. Have a Rednet D16 on the way. Curious if I should consider the SU-1 as a more transportable solution.


 

 Thanks!  Well of course the PUC2 Lite is only AES - so it was used.  Also on the U12, DU-U8, etc..I tried it - not a big difference from well done spdif coax.
  
 AES and SPDIF are of course based on the same protocol - just AES is the balanced version and SPDIF is SE.  Both limited to 192k (except the new Chord DAVE DAC that does 382k on SPDIF).
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF


> Main differences between AES3 and S/PDIF[5]
> ​AES3 balanced​AES3 unbalanced​S/PDIF​Cabling​110-ohm STP75-ohm coaxial75-ohm coaxial or fibreConnector​3-pin XLRBNCRCA or TOSLINKOutput level​2–7 V peak to peak1.0–1.2 V peak to peak0.5–0.6 V peak to peakMin. input level​0.2 V0.32 V0.2 VMax. distance​100 m1,000 m10 mModulation​Biphase mark codeBiphase mark codeBiphase mark codeSubcode information​ASCII id. textASCII id. textSCMS copy protection info.Max. resolution​24 bits24 bits20 bits (24 bits optional)


 
  
  
 BTW I don't think many have had the PUC2 Lite, Mutec 3+ USB, Hydra Z and a whole host of these Chinese DDC's in a highly refined system for extensive review, comparison and analysis.  With and without a host of USB gizmos like: Jitterbugs, Regen, Recovery, iUSB2.0, iPur, iPur2, DCiPur, ICRON/Startech GB LAN iso Audio USB isolation, PPA V2, a few various LPS's, etc...
  
 And now the REDNET 3 - a whole other league trust me...


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!  Well of course the PUC2 Lite is only AES - so it was used.  Also on the U12, DU-U8, etc..I tried it - not a big difference from well done spdif coax.
> 
> AES and SPDIF are of course based on the same protocol - just AES is the balanced version and SPDIF is SE.  Both limited to 192k (except the new Chord DAVE DAC that does 382k on SPDIF).
> 
> ...


 
 Thank-you.
  
 The data streams are nearly identical except for the control word, which varies depending on which protocol, and for those of us involved in the pro-audio world for some time, the era of implementation. There are older devices in existence which are not completely compatible with current implementations.
  
 The physical layer is considerably different. The whole Balanced STP vs Unbalanced Coax may result in a considerable variance for different system integrations. Power distribution and ground loops have increased probability of creating this variance for unbalanced systems, less likely for balanced. Here is a useful link from a major player in installed sound (they are AES members like myself):
  
 http://www.rane.com/note149.html


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> And now the REDNET 3 - a whole other league trust me...


 
  
 +1. Just unbelievable. You can get the RN3 for less than some of our nutty USB chains and still be way ahead for SQ. I disconnected all of my USB stuff last night and will even be pulling my Paul Pang USB card out to spare my LPS from powering it.
  
 And this is with WIndows 2012 running in GUI mode with no Audiophile Optimizer running. I had previously run Windows in Core Mode with AO fully tweaked. Not sure these would even be needed now but might experiment a bit. Might also use my Mutec USB for reclocking but would like to sell it to pay for another REDnet device for my headphone rig. What I am really hoping is that I can use one PC to provide source for both systems and use JRMC with remore control.
  
 This is a New Age for audio...


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Thank-you.
> 
> The data streams are nearly identical except for the control word, which varies depending on which protocol, and for those of us involved in the pro-audio world for some time, the era of implementation. There are older devices in existence which are not completely compatible with current implementations.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!  - Kinda happy I'm not a Pro Audio guy - looks like a tough job!
  
 Bad enough chasing out the regular audio gremlins that show up.


----------



## occamsrazor

rb2013 said:


> No as it requires the NAA as well.  It was tied to this h/w as a way of monetizing the s/w side.
> 
> I much prefer an open - free player.  Anyway the SQ of Foobar is excellent as many have commented.


 
  
 I don't use HQP myself but I don't believe it requires the use of NAA, that's optional and only for a networked connection. It will output to any device that's connected locally. That's probably not what you're interested in, but better to be accurate.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> +1. Just unbelievable. You can get the RN3 for less than some of our nutty USB chains and still be way ahead for SQ. I disconnected all of my USB stuff last night and will even be pulling my Paul Pang USB card out to spare my LPS from powering it.
> 
> And this is with WIndows 2012 running in GUI mode with no Audiophile Optimizer running. I had previously run Windows in Core Mode with AO fully tweaked. Not sure these would even be needed now but might experiment a bit. Might also use my Mutec USB for reclocking but would like to sell it to pay for another REDnet device for my headphone rig. What I am really hoping is that I can use one PC to provide source for both systems and use JRMC with remore control.
> 
> This is a New Age for audio...


 

 Great feedback from someone who has gone the extra mile for USB audio optimization.
  
 Glad to see W2012 no problem for RN.
  
 Give the Mutec a go as reclocker just to see.  Mine will be here tomorrow- again.  I bought the loaner at a great price - just have to push the envelope.
  
 Yes!  It's a sea change of epic proportions (did I chum the 'Trout Farm' enough - LOL!)


----------



## jabbr

mourip said:


> +1. Just unbelievable. You can get the RN3 for less than some of our nutty USB chains and still be way ahead for SQ. I disconnected all of my USB stuff last night and will even be pulling my Paul Pang USB card out to spare my LPS from powering it.
> 
> And this is with WIndows 2012 running in GUI mode with no Audiophile Optimizer running. I had previously run Windows in Core Mode with AO fully tweaked. Not sure these would even be needed now but might experiment a bit. Might also use my Mutec USB for reclocking but would like to sell it to pay for another REDnet device for my headphone rig. What I am really hoping is that I can use one PC to provide source for both systems and use JRMC with remore control.
> 
> This is a New Age for audio...


 
  
  
 When using Audio Optimiser you should check if the following services are still running after applying AO.
 Otherwise you might have to re-enable them by hand again:
 - 'Dante Discovery' service
 -  'ConMon' service
  
 From the User Guide of Dante Virtual Sound Card:


> Supporting Services Dante Virtual Soundcard relies on supporting services for automatic Dante device discovery and for Dante device control and monitoring. These services must be installed and running for Dante software and devices to function properly.
> 
> On OS X, Dante Virtual Soundcard relies on the Apple Bonjour service for device discovery. Bonjour is installed as part of OS X, and runs automatically as a background service.
> 
> ...


----------



## BucketInABucket

Unfortunately, the Rednet 3 is, for some of us, too much to afford so I'm glad there are still devices like the F-1 which offer great bang for the buck


----------



## rb2013

occamsrazor said:


> I don't use HQP myself but I don't believe it requires the use of NAA, that's optional and only for a networked connection. It will output to any device that's connected locally. That's probably not what you're interested in, but better to be accurate.


 

 Thanks for the correction - I 'm having a hard time keeping up on who's dating who in DNLA/UpNP/RAAT/Roon/NAA land!


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Unfortunately, the Rednet 3 is, for some of us, too much to afford so I'm glad there are still devices like the F-1 which offer great bang for the buck


 

 Well yes you are correct there - USB for now is of course the most affordable and flexible.  You can get the F-1, a used Regen (I have mine for sale for $120) and a X-1 TerDak = $379 for a pretty amazing sound.  Open to whatever player you are using.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

atomicbob, did you already receive your mutec? You're getting good results on the u12 reclocked by the mutec?

Also the Rednet is a beast, it's about the same footprint as the yggy.


----------



## justbenice

Hi All,
 I hear that the Mornsun  DC-DC Isolator add a lot of jitter to the signal, i wonder can i remove the this DC-DC converter and short circuits the power supply between digital side and analog side, then cut off the power supply in usb line from computer, provide the whole new linear 5v power to this F-1 board without the DC-DC converter ,  will it bring any good ?
  
 Thank you !


----------



## atomicbob

soundsgoodtome said:


> @atomicbob, did you already receive your mutec? You're getting good results on the u12 reclocked by the mutec?
> 
> Also the Rednet is a beast, it's about the same footprint as the yggy.


 
 Yes, MC-3+ is running:
 USB -> U12 -> AES/EBU -> MC-3+ (reclock) -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil
 Sounds very nice to my ears. Note that the AES/EBU physical layer provides galvanic isolation between devices. No PC or USB noise propagating beyond the U12. Have a D16 coming later this week.


----------



## rb2013

I thought this interchange important so I'm reposting here:
  


drez said:


> Power and data running side by side is only a big deal if the power line has noise.  USB card with low noise 5V this wont be an issue.
> 
> I have tried Lightspeed 10G.  Very sterile and lacking in nuance level detail.  Beaten by even the series 6 Platinum.  The full linear HDPlex PSU is the best fully ATX compatible solution I have tried.  JCAT *is* better than PPA V2.
> 
> ...


 
_>Power and data running side by side is only a big deal if the power line has noise.  USB card with low noise 5V this wont be an issue.<_
  
_I think many would disagree with you on this one.  What is the noise on the +5 VDC out of the JCAT?  doubt it's 1uv or less - like I achieved in my uber USB chain._
  
>I have tried Lightspeed 10G.  Very sterile and lacking in nuance level detail.  Beaten by even the series 6 Platinum.  The full linear HDPlex PSU is the best fully ATX compatible solution I have tried.  JCAT *is* better than PPA V2.<
  
  
That I have no doubt as it's 4X more expensive.  But looking at it - not too impressed.  Nothing special in the clocks.  On design alone would prefer a PPA V3 with ultra low noise OCXO clocking:

  

>Galvanic isolation is necessary for Ethernet because it needs to connect between rooms which might have different ground reference and therefore might create ground loop. * You can galvanically isolate USB if you like - it doesn't really help a whole lot and in my experience is a step backwards.*  Even isolating the ground pin is a step backwards.  The galvanic isolation does provide some noise rejection and DC isolation but it also adds jitter.  The net gain is just not there.  Most of the good USB solution use galvanic isolation after the USB receiver, that way the PHY noise is isolated from the output.  Again the net gain is not a given.<
  
Well I think a lot of folks who have the Intona - would disagree with you.  My experience with the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB extender - would say that is absolutely incorrect.  The GI this provided made a very significant difference.
  
 
>What makes you think Ethernet is free from PHY noise?  In my experience NIC's put out a lot of noise.  I need to enable my NIC because I am running a headless machine.  If were not running a headless machine, I would disable the NIC as it produces much noise.
Secondly, have you measured the PHY noise and compared it to Ethernet, or are we just comparing one D/D implementation to another.  There are so many more factors that might be affecting the sound of the Rednet vs your USB based D/D.  Not least the quality of the reclocking, SPDIF output quality, power supplies etc.  To simply decide that the difference is 100% down to using AOIP is an assumption.  It could be valid assumption, but we would need to isolate so many other factors to make that determination.<
 
Well the clocks on the F-1 (part of my uber USB chain) are the ultra low noise Crystek CCHD-575's - they look to be far superior to the ones in the JCAT card.  (do you have Phase noise numbers for that single clock?  It looks like it's only for USB.  The F-1 has three - one NDK SD ultra low phase noise for USB and then on the clean side of the isolation scheme the two separate Crystek CCHD audio clocks.  Just a much more advanced setup then the only the JCAT.  Mind you in my chain the PPA V2 card had TXCO clock for USB and was fed externally by a LPS.  And still the GB LAN isolation made a big difference, as did the W4S Recovery (also with CCHD clocks and fed by a LPS/DCiPur) - the Recovery accepts 9VDC then with ultra low noise 1uv regulators outputs 5VDC to the F-1.  Maybe you are not familiar with these devices.  This chain now has three stages of ultra low noise regulation to feed the F-1 power and on a separate data chain (using a only the data leg of the 2G) three stages of reclocking and GI.  These chains infinitely more advanced, with a far better power and data cleaning then just a PC with a JCAT card.  Really not in the same ballpark.
 
With a true TCPIP packetized protocol - all the 'mindset' issues of USB must be thrown out the window.  The PHY 'noise' is there - it just doesn't matter.  With USB 2.0 Audio Async - with the lack of lost packet error correction it very much does.  Signal intergity is critical with USB.  AOIP has full lost packet error correction.  In addition,  you have heavy levels of 8K 'packet noise' with USB (with it's analog waveform), signal integrity issues - as SI varies the AGC in the USB receive modulates to feed noise back into the PS system (much like the old DC servo laser trackers in CD players did).  Why ethernet cables don't matter as well - as long as they are of decent quality (what a relief!), like a BJC CAT6.  If someone has a ethernet filter like the Sotm ISO CAT6 filter - and wants me to try it - I would - but I really doubt any benefit.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252404400491?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 
John Swenson has published much on this - worth a read: http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits#zUvXZUJfW9I010L7.97
 


> So now the crux of the matter, how can what goes into the USB receiver affect any of this? In several ways: packet jitter, edge jitter, PLLs. I’ll go over each of these.​ Packet jitter is the difference in the arrival time of packets to the receiver chip. USB packets are transmitted over the bus at either 1000 per second (full speed mode) or 8000 per second (high speed mode). *Every time one of those packets hits the receiver a lot of activity happens inside the receiver chip. This creates lots of noise inside the chip and on the ground plane. This causes a lot of jitter on the outputs from the chip. The spectrum of this noise and jitter has a VERY strong component at either 1KHz or 8KHz, both of which are directly in the audio range. Any changes in the arrival time of the packets will change the spectrum of this packet noise. In the next installment I’ll cover what causes this packet jitter.*​


 
  
 Quote:


> Next is PLLs. Every USB receiver chip has at least one if not more PLLs. These PLLs are affected by both the previous types of jitter and since almost all the circuitry inside the chip is clocked by these PLLs, the jitter on output signals and ground plane noise is going to be significantly affected by the noise spectrum coming out of the PLLs. This is filtered by the PLL loop filter, but there are still major components related to the input jitter.​ So how do we keep all this noise from the USB receiver from getting to our sensitive DAC circuits? It’s called ground plane isolation. You have separate ground planes for the USB receiver and the rest of the DAC circuitry. This DOES prevent ground plane noise from crossing over. BUT if you cut the ground plane there is no way for the return current from the signals crossing the boundary (the I2S signals and clock etc) to get between the “ground domains”. The solution is digital isolators. There are many different technologies to choose from, one most people are familiar with is opto-couplers. Some of these actually add huge amounts of jitter to the signals going through them so are bad choices for our purposes.​ A signal from the receiver now has a return current coming from the isolator so it’s happy. On the other side of the boundary there is a return current to the DAC circuitry so it is happy. *BUT any jitter on the signal coming out of the isolator is STILL creating ground plane noise with a spectrum related to the jitter it had on the other side of the isolator. In addition it is containing jitter related to the isolation scheme as well, and some of THAT jitter is ALSO related to noise on the ground plane on the receiver side.*​ *So again the ground plane isolation and signal isolators can decrease the jitter and noise going from the USB receiver to the DAC circuits, BUT they cannot eliminate it. Some always gets through.*​


 
 Face it USB is just a very dirty technology for high end audio - and the listening proves the point.

 With the AES67 Ethernet Dante and Ravenna protocols you have true IP packet level error correction, inherent galvanic isolation, no PC power corruption on the data lines, etc...
 it's just a sea change in high end audio transmission.
  
>I cannot account for people preferring AES/SPDIF over USB.  As mentioned the interface is a bottleneck.<
  
 Well it's funny how so many top DAC designers like Chord have no i2s on their statement sota machines - but lots of SPDIF and AES!
  
 Meet DAVE:  384k on BNC SPDIF!
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=98
 $12,000


  


> DAVE​ Chord Electronics has launched its most advanced DAC to date. Given the acronym DAVE,
> Chord''s latest-generation digital-to-analogue convertor features the very best conversion technology available, using proprietary techniques never seen before.
> 
> DAVE is a highly advanced reference-grade DAC, digital preamp and headphone amplifier. Hand-made in Kent, DAVE is based around a proprietary FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) offering more than ten times the program capacity of its predecessor.
> ...


 
 SPDIF - if it's good enough for DAVE (and Yggie and TotalDAC, etc...) it's good enough for me!


----------



## rb2013

And it is interesting on Darko's #1 DAC the Aqua HiFi La Scala Mk2 - he used SPDIF to do his review:
  
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/03/aqua-hifi-la-scala-mkii-dac-review/


> USB reception across the swathe of budget D/A converters can best be described as a mixed bag. USB often sounds diluted when compared directly to the same DAC’s neighbouring S/PDIF feed. I start to expect more from decoders that cause financial spill above $2k so I’m pleased (and relieved!) to report that at the even loftier asking price of five thousand Euros, the La Scala’s XMOS USB input is rock solid. When directly connect to a MacMini via USB the La Scala MKII sounded no weaker than calling on the Resonessence Labs Concero HD to intercede as USB-S/PDIF middle man.​


 
_Premier League _​ 
Aqua Hifi La Scala MKII
 _Division 1_​ 
Chord Hugo TT
PS Audio DirectStream
Resonessence Labs INVICTA Mirus
 _Division 2_​ 
Aqua La Voce S2
Audio-gd Reference 7.1  – [discontinued]
AURALiC Vega
Chord Hugo
Chord Mojo
Metrum Acoustics “Hex”
PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MKII
Schiit Gungnir Multibit
WLM Gamma
 _Division 3_​ 
AudioQuest DragonFly Red
Anedio D1 [discontinued]
Audio-gd  Reference 10.2
db Audio Labs Tranquility SE
Eastern Electric MiniMax [discontinued]
Lenehan Audio (Base Level) PDX
Lite DAC-83
Metrum Acoustics “Octave”
Mytek Stereo192-DSD
Peachtree iNova [discontinued]
PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MKI  [discontinued]
Red Wine Audio Isabellina LFP-V Edition
Schiit Bifrost Multibit
Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2
 _Division 4_​ 
AudioQuest DragonFly Black
John Kenny JKDAC32
MHDT Labs Balanced Havana
Resonessence Labs Concero
Resonessence Labs Concero HD
Resonessence Labs Concero HP
Schiit Bifrost Uber w/ Gen 2 USB
  
_Division 5_​ 
Astell&Kern AK120 as USB DAC
AudioQuest Dragonfly v1.2
Audio-gd NFB-2 [discontinued]
Audio-gd NFB-2.1 [discontinued]
Bel Canto DAC-3 [discontinued]
Bladelius USB DAC
CEntrance DACMiniPX
John Kenny JKDAC Sabre  [discontinued]
Lavry DA-10
LH Labs Geek Out 1W
Micromega MyDAC
Peachtree iDecco [discontinued]
Peachtree DAC*iT
Rega DAC
Resonessence Labs Herus
Schiit Bifrost v1
Stello DA100
 

​ _Division 6_​ 
Audio-gd NFB-3 [discontinued]
Beresford Caiman Gatorized
Beresford Bushmaster
Bel Canto DAC-1.5
CEntrance DACPort
Essence HDACC HDMI
Emotiva XDA-1 [discontinued]
Heed Dactilus w/ Q-PSU
HRT microStreamer
MHDT Labs Havana
Schiit Modi
TeraDak Chameleon
  
_And the rest…_​ 
Arcam rDAC
Audio-gd NFB-12 [discontinued]
Beresford 7510
Beresford 7520
Beresford Caiman
Calyx Coffee
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Citypulse DA7.2x
Emotiva XDA-2
Firestone Audio Spitfire MK1 [discontinued]
HRT Music Streamer II+
KingRex UD384 + UPower
Devilsound USB DAC
Lite DAC-AH
Lite DAC-68
Maverick Tube Magic D1
MHDT Labs Paradisea [discontinued]
NAD Wireless USB DAC 1
Pro-ject DAC Box USB
Pro-ject DAC Box FL
Valab NOS DAC
Violectric V800
Xindak DAC5
  
  
  
 And so did Srajan at 6Moons:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html
  


> *Buzz-word compliance* is its de rigueur mortis and mega pixel count. It preys on misinformed consumers who shop by the numbers. Hence by mid 2014, AMR's iFi division had gone positively purple with glee to announce 768kHz PCM and DSD _octa compliance_. By then DSD256 whose very first commercial files had just begun to appear was already passé. DSD512 was the new 'in' to remind us that all life is cyclical. It spirals out of control. Then it collapses and begins anew. On cyclical, in the crusades Christianity had its holy wars. Today it's the turn of Islam. In hifi the former were the THD and IMD wars. The latter's present equivalents target digital sample rates. Faced by such accelerating madness, Aqua pray for all-out peace. Their _assalaamu a'laikum_ or _pax vobiscum_ is refusal to participate. Opt out. Say no to DSD and anything above 24/192. How refreshing. If John Darko's assessment had it right, this decision was far from counter-productive. Quite possibly it was the crucial enabler. Obviously neither Metrum's Hex nor Aqua's La Voce had upsampled, quadrupled or DSD'd. Yet on those I was sold already from close familiarity. Time out then from the digital hamster mill which would turn us into _octagenarians_ well before our time. Mind, I'm not singling out iFi. They were simply first to hit those particular numbers. More will undoubtedly follow. That's the whole mechanism of fashion. It's a lemming brigade.


 


 Review done by SPDIF coax input!


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Yes, MC-3+ is running:
> USB -> U12 -> AES/EBU -> MC-3+ (reclock) -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil
> Sounds very nice to my ears. Note that the AES/EBU physical layer provides galvanic isolation between devices. No PC or USB noise propagating beyond the U12. Have a D16 coming later this week.


 

 The Mutec provides GI as well.


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> The Mutec provides GI as well.



It may between the USB and other connections, but it does NOT between SPDIF input and SPDIF output. I just measured mine with a Fluke DMM at 0.3 ohms between the RCA shields input to output which is the same measurement value as touching the two DMM probes together. I don't have a 4 wire ohmmeter (yet.)
Correction - galvanic isolation may be available on the MC-3+ USB but on the MC-3+ (no USB) RCA jacks are not isolated.


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Yes!  It's a sea change of epic proportions (did I chum the 'Trout Farm' enough - LOL!)


 
  
 Us fishes be jump'in out of the pond and crawling to the hook


----------



## mourip

jabbr said:


> When using Audio Optimiser you should check if the following services are still running after applying AO.
> Otherwise you might have to re-enable them by hand again:
> - 'Dante Discovery' service
> -  'ConMon' service
> ...


 
  
 Thanks. Much appreciated!
  
 Right now applying 119 Windows patches because I was in Core Mode so long


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

benny-x said:


> There are still many Ethernet for audio tweaks around. I'm surprised there hasn't been any talk in here with the great benefits that fibre Ethernet provides over copper. You can use a device called an FMC (Fibre Media Convertor) that has standard copper, RJ-45 on one side (connect to your normal device) the fibre for the run between devices, then back in another FMC so that you can connect the normal Ethernet port on the other side to your other device.
> 
> Like the above mentioned idea of going optical out of the Focusrite RN3, this 100% isolates components as there's no copper for the nasties to travel on.
> 
> There's HUGE thread on it over at ComputerAudiophile, and if I were going with Focusrite Rednet products I'd definitely go the extra mile and put in some FMCs




Quoted over from johnjen's DIY thread. Might be interest to folks talking isolation for ethernet.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Us fishes be jump'in out of the pond and crawling to the hook


 

 LOL!  It's a Large Mouth Bass Pond!


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> Quoted over from @johnjen's DIY thread. Might be interest to folks talking isolation for ethernet.


 

 What 'nastys' is he imagining?  Ethernet is already GI if your using UTP.
  
 I guess for the ultra paranoid you could add a medical grade GI - or if you wanted to go STP (which is what these schemes are trying to isolate).
  
 Just like these $1000 Ethernet cables - snake oil - IMHO.
  
 I highly doubt any sonic benefit.
  
 I know it's hard but with AOIP AES67  -we have to reset our thinking.  It's not just USB over a LAN


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Tbh I don't know. The r3 sounds fantastic as is.


rb2013 said:


> What 'nastys' is he imagining?  Ethernet is already GI if your using UTP.
> 
> I guess for the ultra paranoid you could add a medical grade GI - or if you wanted to go STP (which is what these schemes are trying to isolate).
> 
> ...


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> Never said it was an Uptone product - of course it's Sonore - I've linked to about 10 times already.
> 
> Like some other folks you love to correct what I never said. :wink_face:
> 
> ...





You said you believed "Uptone included some of the Regen tech (for USB gremlins) in the microRendu"....ehhh OK.

LOL, I'm no lawyer. If you wouldn't spread misinformation me and those other folks wouldn't need to correct anything. It seems to be part of your 'style' though, especially with those products you're dismissive of. If I'd have a mouth as big as yours I'd like be sure the things I say are true.  

Just now I saw you write that one needs NAA with HQPlayer which isn't true. You initially wrote the microRendu is a uPnP player which is less than half true. You misunderstood Roon/RAAT and after explaining how it really works you started calling it RATT and calling it the old Airplay..sigh.. Earlier you thanked me for pointing you at the differences between the Mutec MC-3+ and MC-3+ USB which you believed were the same as re-clockers. Just some examples of course that come to mind, I'm not your stalker. Can I/we only "correct" you when it benefits you directly? No, it's a public forum, others might benefit as well. 

I'm not selling anything and I believe you aren't either so would it hurt much to make sure the things we say are true?


----------



## FredA

Looking forward to receiving my f-1.

But my current setup is already awesome, that is: 

mac mini->jb->schiit usb cable->schiit wyrd->supra usb .5m->intona standard->ab system mkii usb ->breeze with talema and crysteks->rj45 i2s->audio-gd m7

Those crysteks took a long time to reach their full potential. Was an easy mod with the twisted pear audio pcb-mounted clocks. 

Awesomely deep and controlled bass, pin point stereo image and all the meat on the bone i can wish for. Listening to this setup, i am starting doubting the f-1 will do better but it should, considering the comments. So i will keep you posted.

The ethernet audio solution looks promising, i am waiting for a cheap solution with i2s out.


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> You said you believed "Uptone included some of the Regen tech (for USB gremlins) in the microRendu"....ehhh OK.
> 
> LOL, I'm no lawyer. If you wouldn't spread misinformation me and those other folks wouldn't need to correct anything. It seems to be part of your 'style' though, especially with those products you're dismissive of. If I'd have a mouth as big as yours I'd like be sure the things I say are true.
> 
> ...


 

 Well I welcome any corrections in what I post and I may misstate things from time to time - especially as prolific a poster as I am (approaching 4700 posts).
  
 It's just the DB manner in which you do it - but I guess that's _your _style.
  
 Now I do believe Mutec is misleading folks (esp with their attention to product nomenclature) with the use of the same naming for the MC-3+ and MC-3+ USB.  This to me highly deceptive.  Maybe it should be MC-3++ USB or MC-3.1+ USB.  Be that as it may - thanks for the update.  What this blogging is all about.   No one is perfect - even you Great Audio Guru.
  
 Now as for my typing and English - sorry I'm a math guy and I am a horrible speller, typist and linguist.  So I will mistype things  - excuse my lack of perfection.
  
 As for the micro Rendu - you say I initially wrote microRendu is a UPNP (as Sonore types it - ALL caps my friend) device - how can something be '_half true_'.  Either it's true or not.
 Don't want to digress into a Boolean logic philosophy discussion.  But this a direct cut and paste from Sonore's website:


> *SELECTABLE OUTPUT MODES*
> Mode #1 - SqueezeLite Output - This output works with any Logitech Media Server and compatible controllers. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM and DSD/DoP.
> 
> Mode #2 - ShairPort Output - This is an AirPlay emulator that utilizes streams sent to it from a compatible source. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM.
> ...


 
 So maybe I'm misinterpeting the meaning of "This output utilizes streams from UPNP/DLNA servers and controllers."  Nothing would surprise me in the arcane, confusing, obfuscated world of Rendu/Roon/RAAT/DNLA/UPNP/NAA/HQPLAYER.
  
Like this masterpiece: "HQ Player NAA Output - This output utilizes streams from Signalyst's HQ Player running on your computer. Digital signal processing is performed by HQ Player and then asynchronously streamed to the Network Audio Adapter (NAA) output. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD."
  
Even for Sonore (who I do respect) - where their own totl statement Rendu Signature - does not do Roon/RAAT, or Roon or RAAT, or any combination of the three.  Yet does all these:


> *STANDARD FEATURES*
> Supports *Tidal* lossless streaming via BubbleUPNP controller on an Android device
> Supports *Tidal* lossless streaming via BubbleServer and Linn Kazoo controller
> Supports gapless playback
> ...


 
 This is a horrendous confusing mess - of non-standard proprietary and expensive Gordian knots.
  
With this long list of things - it still doesn't do the Roon/RAAT dance - well pardon me if I didn't get this tower of babel entirely correct.  There are maybe ten people, if that in all of audio , that can make sense of this confusion...
  
Then on top of all this YOU STILL NEED A USB DEVICE to get the microrendu to work!  
  
Now I never said RAAT was the old Airplay - just based on it - so nothing really new - just improved:
From the Roon website:


> What’s the difference? RAAT vs AirPlay...


 
I am so glad to have a AOIP solution that works and sounds at a whole new level.
  
Well I will sleep well knowing you are waiting on baited breathe for every word I type - so you can get your rocks off on correcting.  
  
Have fun!


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> What 'nastys' is he imagining?  Ethernet is already GI if your using UTP.
> 
> I guess for the ultra paranoid you could add a medical grade GI - or if you wanted to go STP (which is what these schemes are trying to isolate).
> 
> ...


 
 RB.You're a supporter and reposter of a lot of information, much of it subjective. Why call out what I'm passing along when I said there's a big thread on it? Just go read and see for yourself. 
  
 If you were more aware, you'd have seen that post came from a thread about exploring tweaks, not the sound science forum. Oddly, none of your subjective threads are in the sound science forums either... The idea of that thread, and of many threads, is to make information and different points of view available, then let the user choose. The fibre Ethernet thread on CA has a lot of valuable comparisons on hardware, connectivity, modding, and results, not unlike your glorious, but subjective, USB->SPDIF threads. Why jump right to attempting to put "snake oil", audiophile Ethernet cable words in my mouth? Just because you're unfamiliar with the topic doesn't mean it's time to denounce. That's quite ignorant, wouldn't you agree?
  
 Fibre Ethernet vs. copper is very much a real subject, are there benefits in the audio world, maybe so, maybe not. But I suppose you're a math guy and the above was just a typo?
  
 There's no excuse for bad English nor for not looking into what you post or re-post. Saying otherwise is just a cop out.


----------



## Acrobat77

rb2013 said:


> Well I welcome any corrections in what I post and I may misstate things from time to time - especially as prolific a poster as I am (approaching 4700 posts).
> 
> It's just the DB manner in which you do it - but I guess that's _your _style.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Please keep in mind that I'm from The Netherlands and so English isn't my native language. I don't know what 'the DB manner' is/means but I'm guessing it's not a positive thing. I always try to be the point and factual as much as I can but I guess in doing so I may come across as harsh/overly direct or even arrogant but I actually mean no harm. I sure as hell don't want to pretend I know it all, far from it, but some things are really down to earth factual like e.g. the functionalities of a product like Roon. You won't see me discussing the subjective merits (or lack of) of an expensive ethernet cable for example.
  
 I don't like/enjoy to correct you or anyone else but I do dislike seeing people writing in dismissive ways of other hard working people or peoples work/products when they don't have or present the facts straight. It feels like unjustice to me and that person "having an agenda". I guess I shouldn't have responded to your last post as I clearly failed in trying to explain what I meant though. Perhaps I shouldn't even feel 'responsible' at all and thus feel the need to 'correct' misstated facts (whatever the reason behind those misstatings is).
  
  
 Personally I don't see why Mutec is misleading folks or why using the same name is 'highly deceptive'. I rather think it's in their disadvantage. Just look at yourself, you would have bought the cheaper device since the product names didn't make clear there's a difference except for the USB port.

 What I meant with "half true" was that the microRendu is more than just a uPnP renderer while you seemed to portray it earlier as just that. But please forget it, I didn't read back in this long topic to find your exact words. I could even mix this up with you stating Roon is/does uPnp which of course we now both know isn't true. In any way I don't think it's an "arcane, confusing, obfuscated world". There's five known modes of playback each using well known and proven players/renderers being either open source or proprietary solutions. If you don't like any of those then that's of course your opinion anyone has to respect.

We already discussed the Sonore Signature Rendu not supporting Roon. I don't see why that's such a big issue for you or even an issue at all. It's been on the market for quite some time and probably simply wasn't designed to support it. If they could/can support it I'm sure they would/will but it needs to have a certain hard- and software architecture to support the Roon Ready/RAAT requirements. I don't know if it has or not but neither do you so we'd need to ask Sonore for the facts which they can choose to disclose, or not. Anyway, there's thousands of DAC's/streamers/DDC's that can't support it and this of course may/will change in the future since it's becoming quite the popular solution, at least in high-end.
  
The microRendu is -deliberately- designed to be a ethernet-USB DDC so of course you need a USB device. You've said goodbye to your "uber USB chain" what, two weeks ago? Do you expect the world to follow you in that same time period? Do you expect the world to follow you at all and if we don't are we all stupid now all of a sudden? It's a bit scary to see you write with your fanatiscism sometimes. But hey that's just me, I signed up a week ago and it's your topic. 
  
 RAAT is not the old airplay or based on it. Period. Have you ever seen Apple sharing any core technologies of theirs with others?  RAAT is a Roon proprietary network streaming protocol. The comparison with Airplay was only made to explain what it is and how/why it's better than the thing most people already know and would think to be similar in functionality.
  
 I'm glad you're happy with the Dante based solution. Like I wrote earlier I will probably try it myself someday as well, it shows great promise and I like the virtual soundcard functionality. It's one of the reasons I bought my Devialet, it offers AIR which is similar in functionality. AIR, up to now, is just poorly implemented by Devialet as I explained earlier.
   
I'll probably leave it at this from now (I mean it's probably the last I write about it all) but please remember I didn't mean to offend/hurt you in any way correcting any misstated facts.

  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

Just a quick note on this thread and my other AOIP thread - My threads tend to be fairly open affairs - as I believe this leads to fruit full information sharing.  As opposed to a very strict narrow thread.
  
 Both with the XU208 XMOS F-1 and other USB devices I have blogged about here and now the discovery of these fantastic REDNET AOIP devices - we have been at the cutting edge of computer audio.
  
 It's not surprising that we're ruffing many audio feathers - especially with the AOIP stuff.  It wouldn't surprise me that some MOT are posting under pseudonyms to try and undermine me.
  
 They have large investments and large revenue models to exploit.  It is strange the OP comment about 'not selling anything here', hum...
  
 Anyway the popularity of these threads and the positive feedback from others on my recommendations speaks for itself.  We are at the cutting edge of a major sea change in computer audio and the reports from those trying the REDNET boxes has been overwhelmingly positive.  You heard it ALL hear first!  We are effecting change in the audio business itself with our grass roots efforts.  These will be met with derision, scorn, rage and rebuttal.  But the SQ speaks for itself.
  
 Great news on the AOIP front  Focusrite replied back to a question on the REDNET SR changing and this was their reply:


> I had contact with Focusrite support about RD3 / RD16 automatically following sample rates on the PC.
> To be short: it *cannot* be done.
> 
> This is the answer from Focusrite support:
> ...


 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> RB.You're a supporter and reposter of a lot of information, much of it subjective. Why call out what I'm passing along when I said there's a big thread on it? Just go read and see for yourself.
> 
> If you were more aware, you'd have seen that post came from a thread about exploring tweaks, not the sound science forum. Oddly, none of your subjective threads are in the sound science forums either... The idea of that thread, and of many threads, is to make information and different points of view available, then let the user choose. The fibre Ethernet thread on CA has a lot of valuable comparisons on hardware, connectivity, modding, and results, not unlike your glorious, but subjective, USB->SPDIF threads. Why jump right to attempting to put "snake oil", audiophile Ethernet cable words in my mouth? Just because you're unfamiliar with the topic doesn't mean it's time to denounce. That's quite ignorant, wouldn't you agree?
> 
> ...


 
 I was wondering when you would show up here!  We have prot, why not my old friend Benny. The more the merrier!
  
 Now my comment on these ethernet gizmos being 'snake oil' are my words not yours and I did say IMHO.  So how is me saying something - put words in your mouth?  They are clearly my words...the old straw man technique.


> Just like these $1000 Ethernet cables - snake oil - IMHO.
> 
> I highly doubt any sonic benefit.
> 
> I know it's hard but with AOIP AES67  -we have to reset our thinking.  It's not just USB over a LAN


 
 - but that's fine do whatever you wish to AOIP to try and improve it!  I just don't see the point.  But you are right I should be open minded about things like ethernet filters and optical connections, etc..  I just won't be sending any of my money on it.  Now JCAT offered to send me his $500 JCAT CAT6 cable and his $500 JCAT USB card.
  
 I will try them for a free trail.  So we will see - I'm a huge believer in cables.  Just my own experience with the direct REDNET AOIP is they make no difference.  Unlike the USB ICRON GB LAN extender/isolator.
  
 Glad you enjoy my "glorious subjective USB>SPDIF threads"!
  
 I will repost Srajan's comments from the excellent 6Moons review of the La Scala MK2 DAC now these are his words not yours or mine - but I agree with them.  And I imagine you and few OP don't - sorry...


> *Buzz-word compliance* is its de rigueur mortis and mega pixel count. It preys on misinformed consumers who shop by the numbers. Hence by mid 2014, AMR's iFi division had gone positively purple with glee to announce 768kHz PCM and DSD _octa compliance_. By then DSD256 whose very first commercial files had just begun to appear was already passé. DSD512 was the new 'in' to remind us that all life is cyclical. It spirals out of control. Then it collapses and begins anew. On cyclical, in the crusades Christianity had its holy wars. Today it's the turn of Islam. In hifi the former were the THD and IMD wars. The latter's present equivalents target digital sample rates. Faced by such accelerating madness, Aqua pray for all-out peace. Their _assalaamu a'laikum_ or _pax vobiscum_ is refusal to participate. Opt out. Say no to DSD and anything above 24/192. How refreshing. If John Darko's assessment had it right, this decision was far from counter-productive. Quite possibly it was the crucial enabler. Obviously neither Metrum's Hex nor Aqua's La Voce had upsampled, quadrupled or DSD'd. Yet on those I was sold already from close familiarity. Time out then from the digital hamster mill which would turn us into _octagenarians_ well before our time. Mind, I'm not singling out iFi. They were simply first to hit those particular numbers. More will undoubtedly follow. That's the whole mechanism of fashion. It's a lemming brigade.


 
  
 PS As this AOIP REDNET stuff spreads - expect more flame attacks - now we know we have folks attention!


----------



## jelt2359

soundsgoodtome said:


> Quoted over from johnjen's DIY thread. Might be interest to folks talking isolation for ethernet.




I have this optical bridge, as recommended by Romaz. The guy took top honours in innerfidelity's big sound event in terms of being able to tell tom from harry in a blind ab test of amps, so I trust his ears a tonne. He also, happily, tested multiple high end servers (caps, aurender, total dac etc etc). This optical tweak was something he told me worked marvels. With all the parts available from Amazon for less than $100-150 or so, and no software needed, it was an easy test. Also easy to unplug the optical devices's ethernet out and use an Ethernet cable direct from the router instead to compare. My friends and I can personally tell the difference immediately. Lower noise, less harsh presentation, and cleaner all around. It's now a permanent fixture in my chain. 

Ymmv, but I think it's worth a shot.


----------



## Benny-x

acrobat77 said:


> Please keep in mind that I'm from The Netherlands and so English isn't my native language.
> 
> I guess I shouldn't have responded to your last post as I clearly failed in trying to explain what I meant though. Perhaps I shouldn't even feel 'responsible' at all and thus feel the need to 'correct' misstated facts (whatever the reason behind those misstatings is).


 
 Dude, your English is fine and I understood exactly what you meant. If it's not your first language than RB's even more of a math guy than he mentioned...
  
 You were spot on when you said he was only "half right" about the microRendu, but it's actually worse because according to the 5 point functional description he quoted himself as evidence, he was only 20% right... Though he made his way around to a few websites to collect evidence to refute what you said, any reader that's familiar with the microRendu would see that he dug his own grave and only proved your point by quoting from their website. I suppose that's a whole other topic, though. 
  
 You didn't come across wrongly at all, RB was just acting like the dismissive part that you mentioned and being a DB like he said you were. A DB is a ****** bag, and you're correct, it's not a positive thing and basically means being a dick.
  
 RB's claim to fame is that he started some good threads where a bunch of other people come together to discuss things, but the down side is he's close minded and very confrontational to people and things he's not already on board with.


----------



## rb2013

acrobat77 said:


> Please keep in mind that I'm from The Netherlands and so English isn't my native language. I don't know what 'the DB manner' is/means but I'm guessing it's not a positive thing. I always try to be the point and factual as much as I can but I guess in doing so I may come across as harsh/overly direct or even arrogant but I actually mean no harm. I sure as hell don't want to pretend I know it all, far from it, but some things are really down to earth factual like e.g. the functionalities of a product like Roon. You won't see me discussing the subjective merits (or lack of) of an expensive ethernet cable for example.
> 
> I don't like/enjoy to correct you or anyone else but I do dislike seeing people writing in dismissive ways of other hard working people or peoples work/products when they don't have or present the facts straight. It feels like unjustice to me and that person "having an agenda". I guess I shouldn't have responded to your last post as I clearly failed in trying to explain what I meant though. Perhaps I shouldn't even feel 'responsible' at all and thus feel the need to 'correct' misstated facts (whatever the reason behind those misstatings is).
> 
> ...


 
 >I don't like/enjoy to correct you or anyone else but I do dislike seeing people writing in dismissive ways of other hard working people or peoples work/products when they don't have or present the facts straight. It feels like unjustice to me and that person "having an agenda". I guess I shouldn't have responded to your last post as I clearly failed in trying to explain what I meant though. Perhaps I shouldn't even feel 'responsible' at all and thus feel the need to 'correct' misstated facts (whatever the reason behind those misstatings is).<
  
 Correct away!  I really don't mind but be a bit gracious as others are.  I have spent a lot of time and hard work to share my audio experiences, to benefit others, be a little more soft in your correcting me.  You don't have to jump down my throat with a 'gotcha'...I has wrong on the Mutec clocking - and Roon/RAAT.  OK so be it.  I have no agenda - only a strong opinion on things.  Take it or leave it.
  
 >Personally I don't see why Mutec is misleading folks or why using the same name is 'highly deceptive'. I rather think it's in their disadvantage. Just look at yourself, you would have bought the cheaper device since the product names didn't make clear there's a difference except for the USB port.<
  
 Oh so a major revision in their entire reclocking scheme is not that important?  A complete rebuild of the board (not just the addition of a XMOS USB board).  One that equals three of the non-USB linked together - as just a reclocker to equal.  THAT doesn't warrant at least a 3.1 designation????  Right...
  
 >What I meant with "half true" was that the microRendu is more than just a uPnP renderer while you seemed to portray it earlier as just that. But please forget it, I didn't read back in this long topic to find your exact words. I could even mix this up with you stating Roon is/does uPnp which of course we now both know isn't true. In any way I don't think it's an "arcane, confusing, obfuscated world". There's five known modes of playback each using well known and proven players/renderers being either open source or proprietary solutions. If you don't like any of those then that's of course your opinion anyone has to respect.<
  
How many times do I have to repost that arcane list of outputs - like I've done a half dozen times!  Never said was only a UPNP device!
But to save myself this ridiculous discussion I will repost that list each and every time I mention microrendu - happy?  I'd hate to offend the millions of ShairPort/Airplay and MPD/DNLA users out there
Here you go buddy:


> *SELECTABLE OUTPUT MODES*
> Mode #1 - SqueezeLite Output - This output works with any Logitech Media Server and compatible controllers. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM and DSD/DoP.
> 
> Mode #2 - ShairPort Output - This is an AirPlay emulator that utilizes streams sent to it from a compatible source. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM.
> ...


 
  
>We already discussed the Sonore Signature Rendu not supporting Roon. I don't see why that's such a big issue for you or even an issue at all. It's been on the market for quite some time and probably simply wasn't designed to support it. If they could/can support it I'm sure they would/will but it needs to have a certain hard- and software architecture to support the Roon Ready/RAAT requirements. I don't know if it has or not but neither do you so we'd need to ask Sonore for the facts which they can choose to disclose, or not. Anyway, there's thousands of DAC's/streamers/DDC's that can't support it and this of course may/will change in the future since it's becoming quite the popular solution, at least in high-end.<
  
That's my point this Rendu/Roon/RAAT/DNLA/UPNP complex is so ridiculously incompatible that Sonore's own totl device doesn;t support what the 'micro' does - that then needs a USB device added.  It's too bad - as their implementation of SPDIF in the Signature looks really, really good.  And at least it has top Cyrstek clocks - no?  Better quote Sonore's website to be sure!


> To generate an absolutely pure clock signal, we added a separate, isolated, output board with a separately regulated power supply.  This output board holds the *dual Crystek CCHD oscillators*, the re-clocking circuitry, and the output drive circuitry for SPDIF and I2S.  Because the Signature Series Rendu generates clean clocks and then reclocks on the output board right before the SPDIF and I2S output jitter is lowered even further.  *Additionally, a very special SPDIF driver circuitry results in a perfectly clean SPDIF waveform which allows one to get the best out of any SPDIF input DAC.*​* *


 
 Did I get that right?  Any need for corrections?  Sorry Roon/RAAT lovers you don't get to listen to this.  I bet the folks who bought this are real happy - that is if they wanted to spend $500 for their player.
  
>The microRendu is -deliberately- designed to be a ethernet-USB DDC so of course you need a USB device. You've said goodbye to your "uber USB chain" what, two weeks ago? Do you expect the world to follow you in that same time period? Do you expect the world to follow you at all and if we don't are we all stupid now all of a sudden? It's a bit scary to see you write with your fanatiscism sometimes. But hey that's just me, I signed up a week ago and it's your topic. <
  
Well certainly not - unless you have read this and my other thread you would be ignorant of AOIP REDNET.  No thanks needed.  And again you put words in my mouth - and are dead wrong.  I have not said goodbye to my 'uber' USB, it's playing in my office (that's my second string bench).  But I would expect to see them include their "perfectly clean SPDIF" let me quote them to get it right "very special SPDIF driver circuitry (that) results in a perfectly clean SPDIF waveform".  Instead leaving that up to the user to get on their own.  Maybe a companion module with this neat SPDIF "very special SPDIF driver circuitry (that) results in a perfectly clean SPDIF waveform"  If I had one of these micro's that is what I'd want.
  
 >I'm glad you're happy with the Dante based solution. Like I wrote earlier I will probably try it myself someday as well, it shows great promise and I like the virtual soundcard functionality. It's one of the reasons I bought my Devialet, it offers AIR which is similar in functionality. AIR, up to now, is just poorly implemented by Devialet as I explained earlier.<
  
 Well here we can agree!  I'm not just 'happy' with Dante - I'm ecstatic!
  
 Honestly I do appreciate correcting me on the Rendu/Roon/RAAT stuff - it's so convoluted it hurts my head.
  
 Cheers


----------



## jelt2359

I currently have the microRendu, and am looking into a Mutec 3+ USB. It sounds amazing, but I'm curious, which is why I'm on this thread. In addition I have a clean optical ethernet network feeding the microRendu, which may or may not matter for the Rednet.
  
 Has anyone compared the Rednet to this setup? I realise there are functional differences in what they can and cannot do: Rednet can use Foobar and other players; microRendu cannot. On its part microRendu can use Roon, HQPlayer, Logitech Media Server, etc etc, Rednet cannot. Perhaps more important, microRendu -> Mutec 3+ USB still has a USB interface in the chain, Rednet does not.
  
 But I'm looking for different info- not functionality focused. That last point, having the USB interface in the chain, is why I'm most curious, actually. Does anyone have actual listening experiences or comparisons between the two setups? Alternatively, if it's fairer, perhaps it can be a microRendu -> Mutec vs Rednet -> Mutec comparison.
  
 Anyhow, if not, I understand- it's a big ask; these items are not cheap, and largely replicate the same thing (listening to music over Ethernet). Thanks in advance!
  
 PS, if anyone has had the opportunity to hear these feeding a Yggy, that'd be great too. I suspect different DACs have different sensitivity to inputs.


----------



## drez

rb2013 said:


> I thought this interchange important so I'm reposting here:
> 
> _>Power and data running side by side is only a big deal if the power line has noise.  USB card with low noise 5V this wont be an issue.<
> _
> ...




So regarding USB card 5v noise. On the JCAT its as low as the PSU you feed it with, or lower if you use the built in linear regulator. If the 5V noise is a concern feed the card with super low noise PSU rather than tacking on some fix it box that will screw with the digital signal integrity. Adding tweaks inline with USB creates huge impedance mismatch which is the enemy of signal integrity. Not sure of the specs. Regarding clock - add on boards with clocks, even super duper OCXO often produce more jitter than decent clocks soldered to the PCB. Lots of the PPA hardware is failing presumably with clocks going out of spec. JCAT was engineered from scratch, not just tweaked.

Question for galvanic isolation - what makes you sure the signal coming out is better than the signal coming in? Some buzzwords on the marketing material? Some hyped up praise from nooby grasshopper clueless audiophiles? I have no doubt that there is a difference in sound when these devices are introduced. I have no doubt that these differences may be perceived as improvements. I'm even open to possibility that with some systems, due to poor hardware or synergy there will be overall improvement. I am however skeptical that reclocking will help a good USB source fed to good USB receiver with good USB cable. I have read others who have testified to this. Usually these tweaks have a transactional influence on sound, improving one area while harming another. These reclockers add latency, making it harder for receiver to maintain buffer. I am open to someone sending me one of these newest gen of USB uber tweaks but I'm not going to spend my money there.

Lastly you have still not provided convincing argument why Ethernet is superior to USB for noise. Most decent USB chains dont drop packets or flip bits. Maybe a tweaked out monstrousity might. Do you think there is no flurry of activity when ethernet receives a packet, no power draw fluctuation, no capacitive coupling of noise to the ground plane (if not designed properly). Ethernet is packetised transfer just like USB, but has heavy noise shaping, galvanic isolation, and ECC to allow for demands of ethernet applications. IMO more noise shaping and ECC and isolation is not the answer. Fixing the problem at the source is the best solution.

As for SPDIF yes a lot of DAC provide the input. I think I recall Rob Watts reccomending TOSLINK because he thinks it will have less noise (galvanic isolation) and all the inputs undergo ASRC and so are jitter immune. Ussrs disagree. This is same company with UAC2 issues on their USB inputs. I find their indifference unconvincing.

There is also Berkeley Reference Series DAC which is AES and SPDIF only. Supposed to be used with Berkeley BADA USB which has heavy noise isolation. In fact BADA USB powers USB from bus, that way no noise is coupled to the output. Strangely despite this noise floor is good but not great. Sound is apparently still amazing. There is surely more to it than measurements.

However, just pointing to those DAC does not mean that is the BEST way to do things. Maybe Berkeley Reference or DAVe would sound even better with different digital input. Maybe not. Hard to say as you are stuck with what is provided. Other DAC provide modular or upgradeable inputs. This appeals to me. Clearly digital inout tech is not anywhere near settled.


----------



## rw35

benny-x said:


> RB's claim to fame is that he started some good threads where a bunch of other people come together to discuss things, but the down side is he's close minded and very confrontational to people and things he's not already on board with.


 
  
 Fundamentally disagree!
  
 I have twice had opposing results to him and posted them here. He has been nothing but respectful and supportive in return.
  
 rb has effortlessly and selflessly experimented and shared his results to the benefit of a great many people  - if _anyone_ doesn't like *HIS *threads?.. go somewhere else, it's a really easy choice.
  
 ... as you were rb.


----------



## mourip

rw35 said:


> Fundamentally disagree!
> 
> I have twice had opposing results to him and posted them here. He has been nothing but respectful and supportive in return.
> 
> ...


 
  
 +1
  
 Rob can get a bit passionate about his "mission" but many, many of us have benefited greatly from his tireless and expensive exploration of these devices. His pointing to the REDNet IP devices has brought my own system to a level I would never have thought was possible.
  
 It is a big boat we travel in and there is room for everyone...


----------



## rb2013

rw35 said:


> Fundamentally disagree!
> 
> I have twice had opposing results to him and posted them here. He has been nothing but respectful and supportive in return.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for that!  I am unapologetic in my passion for audio - and just a tad enthusiastic - if you have noticed!  I do have my opinions, but can be dissuaded and changed.  So we press forward!  I love a hotly contested debate - not drama - just good and accurate information for everyone to learn from.  Subject opinions as well from people who have actually have had stuff.
  


mourip said:


> +1
> 
> Rob can get a bit passionate about his "mission" but many, many of us have benefited greatly from his tireless and expensive exploration of these devices. His pointing to the REDNet IP devices has brought my own system to a level I would never have thought was possible.
> 
> It is a big boat we travel in and there is room for everyone...


 
 Yes I agree - but some just seek to derail threads - this ain't my first rodeo.  This thread is a 'disruptor' to the normal audio order - so not surprising will be met with some skeptism.
  
 I see a few of my posts where deleted last night - to bad.  Just to point out in my moniker is the title 'Contributor' this is not a user option, but given for contributions to audio and Headfi.
 I was given this status by Jude (founder of Headfi) for the work I did in uncovering one of the most amazing tubes - before my discovery unknown in audio circles.  Used in the Russian space program in the '70s.  After a 20+ yr history with audio tubes - the finest tube I have ever heard.  In my systems truly magical.  I did a lengthy 17 tube rolloff - a head to head comparison of the finest tubes across the globe in the 6922 family.  This was the final faceoff to convince me the Russian 'Holy Grail' tubes where the best of the best.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/761078/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes
  
 It was for this review that I was awarded this top honor.
  
 Trading my test tester for a soldering iron - I then embarked on a major DIY DAC modding project.  Turning a $600 Lite DAC60 into a near sota machine:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 That was before I even turned my attention to USB bridges.  Discovering the Gustard U12, Breeze Audio DU-U8, Singxer F-1 and now pushing the computer audio envelope with AOIP.  All the way posting detailed threads as source points for information and research on these respective areas (the Gustard U12 had over 300,000 views before it was shut down).
  
 So I think my audio bonafides are well established.  So any chucklehead who wants to stroll on in and take pot shots at me  - is welcome to - but I won't take it lying down!
  
 We press on ward!


----------



## rb2013

drez said:


>


 

 Ok Great post - and I do appreciate it.  So let's start:
  
>So regarding USB card 5v noise. On the JCAT its as low as the PSU you feed it with, or lower if you use the built in linear regulator. If the 5V noise is a concern feed the card with super low noise PSU rather than tacking on some fix it box that will screw with the digital signal integrity. Adding tweaks inline with USB creates huge impedance mismatch which is the enemy of signal integrity. Not sure of the specs. Regarding clock - add on boards with clocks, even super duper OCXO often produce more jitter than decent clocks soldered to the PCB. Lots of the PPA hardware is failing presumably with clocks going out of spec. JCAT was engineered from scratch, not just tweaked.<
  
Do you have the regulator used on the board.  Every regulator has noise - and PSRR numbers - would love to look those up.  Well as far as the impedance mismatch - that is what the Regen and Recovery are for in the chain - as close as possible to the F-1 DDC.
  
Speaking of clocks - which one is used on the JCAT board - I'd like to see it's phase noise numbers.  All crystal clocks, not just the PPA TXCO OXCO ones drift over time.  If you give me the clock used on the JCAT I can look up it's drift numbers.  Not saying the JCAT board is not nice - it is -and should be for the cost.  But as a  sole solution for USB - doubt it can match a well crafted more complex USB chain.
  
>Question for galvanic isolation - what makes you sure the signal coming out is better than the signal coming in? Some buzzwords on the marketing material? Some hyped up praise from nooby grasshopper clueless audiophiles? I have no doubt that there is a difference in sound when these devices are introduced. I have no doubt that these differences may be perceived as improvements. I'm even open to possibility that with some systems, due to poor hardware or synergy there will be overall improvement. I am however skeptical that reclocking will help a good USB source fed to good USB receiver with good USB cable. I have read others who have testified to this. Usually these tweaks have a transactional influence on sound, improving one area while harming another. These reclockers add latency, making it harder for receiver to maintain buffer. I am open to someone sending me one of these newest gen of USB uber tweaks but I'm not going to spend my money there.<
  
Well I do see your point - and a reason I shied away from the Intona.  They use the lowest cost SiTime CMEMS clocks (as part of their design criteria - the unit had to function at +2G lateral acceleration), these were chosen as they do not lose function under extreme G forces.  Not because they have the lowest noise - or even lowest cost.  But the response from most of those who have heard the Intona has been overwhelmingly positive.  So it is doing something good.  It's main function is to add High Speed USB galvanic isolation.  Now after watching this video on youtube an the upcoming PS Audio LANROver:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQjJke5uM2g
  
 I became intrigued with this device - with some help from knowledgeable folks we found who made the unit he describes (Paul does mention they will be ordering some design improvements to the std OEM version).  I tried one and the SQ results were astounding!  But some who tried it as well said the Intona was better!  This is not a reclocker, per se, but adds a TCPIP(RTPIP?) repacketization to the USB data stream.  Of course it needs to reclock to reconstruct the USB data chain.  Here are the boards from my unit:

  
 The change is SQ was unlike any reclocker (Recovery/Regen) I had heard.  This was a major step in the right direction! And led us in this thread to explore just getting rid of USB completely and just using a TCPIP Ethernet solution directly from PC to DAC.  Hence the find (again not mine) of the REDNET stuff.
  
 So this thread has advanced from the excellent XU208 F-1 to the XU208 F-1 + USB gizmos to XU208 F-1 + gizmos + GB LAN isolation to AOIP.  All in a matter of months.
  
>Lastly you have still not provided convincing argument why Ethernet is superior to USB for noise. Most decent USB chains dont drop packets or flip bits. Maybe a tweaked out monstrousity might. Do you think there is no flurry of activity when ethernet receives a packet, no power draw fluctuation, no capacitive coupling of noise to the ground plane (if not designed properly). Ethernet is packetised transfer just like USB, but has heavy noise shaping, galvanic isolation, and ECC to allow for demands of ethernet applications. IMO more noise shaping and ECC and isolation is not the answer. Fixing the problem at the source is the best solution.<
  
Well it's really a seachange in computer audio - the AES67 protocols are not just Ethernet based like the ICRON LAN USB or even the DNLA/UPNP stuff.  But the protocol is much more complex as Alex pointed out in those 2014 CA posts.  And AES67 AOIP is NOT 'just like USB'  packetization!  Try transmitting a USB data packet over a LAN!  As I currently understand it - noise and jitter are not operating in the same domain.  Same for distributed Master clocking.  This packetization is operating at a deeper level RTPIP.  This is a layer three protocol.  And yes GI is inherent in the design.  No electrical power transmitted along side the data stream, etc..
  
All I can say is the SQ is really in a whole other league for me.
  
>As for SPDIF yes a lot of DAC provide the input. I think I recall Rob Watts reccomending TOSLINK because he thinks it will have less noise (galvanic isolation) and all the inputs undergo ASRC and so are jitter immune. Ussrs disagree. This is same company with UAC2 issues on their USB inputs. I find their indifference unconvincing.
There is also Berkeley Reference Series DAC which is AES and SPDIF only. Supposed to be used with Berkeley BADA USB which has heavy noise isolation. In fact BADA USB powers USB from bus, that way no noise is coupled to the output. Strangely despite this noise floor is good but not great. Sound is apparently still amazing. There is surely more to it than measurements.
However, just pointing to those DAC does not mean that is the BEST way to do things. Maybe Berkeley Reference or DAVe would sound even better with different digital input. Maybe not. Hard to say as you are stuck with what is provided. Other DAC provide modular or upgradeable inputs. This appeals to me. Clearly digital inout tech is not anywhere near settled.<
  
Well SPDIF is obviously not ideal on a theoretical basis - but it all comes down to implementation.  Are you saying you are a better audio designer then Rob Watts of Chord?  He is off track?  Hum.... Well tell me what you have designed?  How about TotalDAC and Aqua HiFi - they got it wrong too?
  
Love this piece of gear! TotalDAC D1 tubed:
 http://www.totaldac.com/D1-tube-eng.htm


> 192KHz asynchronous Xmos USB, optical, RCA and AES-EBU digital inputs, selectable from a remote control.
> -44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz, 176.4KHz and 192KHz, 16 to 24 bit formats supported on all inputs except 96KHz max for optical input.
> -as an option, DSD (DoP standard) supported on the USB, AES-EBU and spdif inputs.
> -USB input compatible with Jplay in 24 bit "extreme hibernate" mode. The USB input is the same as the d1-dual USB input.
> ...


 
 I see SPDIF and AES and USB - no i2s input...


 How about the Schiit Yggie?
 Where is the i2s input?


 They have it wrong too?  From many folks who have this beauty - they've commented on how much better a good external DDC feeding the SPDIF or AES sounds then the GEN3 internal USB board.
  
 Anyway - I'm convinced.  And the SQ I'm getting has my ears convinced.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## drez

rb2013 said:


> Ok Great post - and I do appreciate it.  So let's start:
> 
> >So regarding USB card 5v noise. On the JCAT its as low as the PSU you feed it with, or lower if you use the built in linear regulator. If the 5V noise is a concern feed the card with super low noise PSU rather than tacking on some fix it box that will screw with the digital signal integrity. Adding tweaks inline with USB creates huge impedance mismatch which is the enemy of signal integrity. Not sure of the specs. Regarding clock - add on boards with clocks, even super duper OCXO often produce more jitter than decent clocks soldered to the PCB. Lots of the PPA hardware is failing presumably with clocks going out of spec. JCAT was engineered from scratch, not just tweaked.<
> 
> ...


 
  
 No disrespect intended towards Rob Watts or any other audio designer.  I quite like his DAC's and wish I could afford some of them.  Not to put words in Chord's mouths, but AFAIK due to the design of Chord DAC's they are probably not concerned by digital input jitter.  
  
 I have also heard similar jitter immunity claims before (eg Sabre time domain jitter elimination etc).  It is probably even verified by measurements that all inputs are the same, but I still do not trust...
  
 As for Schiit, they have their own reasons for not going with LVDSI2S and they are surely valid and based on expert knowledge.  I recall this was addressed in their blog thread.  Again much respect for Schiit.  I can actually afford their products too which is a bonus.  With this said, I think their USB inputs still can be improved upon.
  
 As for JCAT, I fail to see the point to providing specs given lack of competition but what information I can find is available here.
  
 As for reclocking, I have played around with it in the past, from the computer, using SPDIF reclocking, galvanic isolation devices.  Nothing I added to the USB chain improved it.  I also don't trust people.  Generally I see what other stuff they are running, the nature of their impressions and try to sus out from there.  As far as guaranteed improvement - most of what I have gathered, as mentioned, is a sort of gain in one area, detriment in another type of improvement.  I am inclined to find that more convincing than blanket, nonspecific praise, and most of that comes from ears I trust.  I have no interest in that kind of changes.  I would be more inclined to wait for new Sabre chips or install a better USB input card on my current DAC, or improve my music server wiring.
  
 Of course it's possible that these new devices are special and only improve, but that is not what I have gathered, and I remain skeptical.  I have just seen very similar events before, even wasted my own money...
  
 I'm not alone in my skepticism of USB reclocking.  I recall others have spoken out against the Regen on technical grounds.  I believe it is frowned upon to link to other forums so I apologise I cannot provide a link.
  
 Again the Rednet is probably very good D/D interface for use with computer, as mentioned it has excellent reclocking - from what I gathered this, along with power supplies, plays a huge role in the sound of gear.  I just detest naive praise for new technology based on features and lack of familiarity with it's weaknesses (we all thought async USB would be the cure to all our problems), and possible misplaced judgement of what is to thank for the better performance.  I also am a bit of a contrarian and abhor hype trains, so that might be part of it.


----------



## BucketInABucket

Guys guys, to lighten up things, why don't we have a laugh at my temporary solution for protecting the F-1?


----------



## Albrecht

> REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ (SPDIF reclocker)                                                         235
> REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord                                                                               220
> Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB               170
> Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord                                                        155
> Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2                                                   145


 
  
 Hey RB,
  
 Thanks for all... Really appreciate you re-doing your rankings. So helpful to put all of this in an organized, hierarchical perspective.
  
 Adding in the Mutec 3 is fascinating to me as it looks like it was a significant improvement over the RedNet3 alone. This goes to show that the APL, (that has no Master Clock), can benefit from reclocking the Dante AOIP.
  
 Sounds like it's well worth it to use the Mutec 3+ as a reclocker, - but don't buy the USB to SPDIF version.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

drez said:


> No disrespect intended towards Rob Watts or any other audio designer.  I quite like his DAC's and wish I could afford some of them.  Not to put words in Chord's mouths, but AFAIK due to the design of Chord DAC's they are probably not concerned by digital input jitter.
> 
> I have also heard similar jitter immunity claims before (eg Sabre time domain jitter elimination etc).  It is probably even verified by measurements that all inputs are the same, but I still do not trust...
> 
> ...


 

 Well we couldn't be further apart.  Our systems (and maybe our hearing) are different?  After a few decades of refining mine - I have to say compared to what else I have heard and owned - the most transparent and realistic of any.  Including this one l owned for many years - back in flusher days - over $80k of gear.  Took 10 yrs to assemble with a unbelieveable amount of gear rolling (200+ Audiogon transactions).  Same for my office system.

  
 Had a chance to get a private audition at Stereophile Reviewer Jason Serinus's $100K home system - not long ago:

  
 The DCS Rossini alone cost multiples of my current system.
  
 Compared to what I'm hearing now - would not trade the SQ for either - not by a long stretch.
  
 Now I did do a $1000 recap on my amps using all Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps and Mundorf solid silver/teflon wiring.  That did make a significant difference in the resolution and transparency in my system.
  
 But these step by step (sometimes leap by leap) improvements in my digital source have been immediately noticeable and often not subtle. 
  
 This last one to AOIP - well sea change is the best way to describe it.  But even in the uber USB chain - small changes - like moving a device from one place in the chain to another was noticeable.  So for how many months - night by night honing in on the optimal chain (I often listen for 4-5 hours each night in my main system and 6-8 hours in my office).  With that amount of listening experience - you become highly aware of SQ changes.
  
 I have a finely tuned ear - and did you know that minor pressure differences on each side of the eardrum can change/effect hearing - esp in the high frequencies.  So before each critical listening session I equalize the pressure (like when you're on an airplane).  I have my hearing tested twice a year - it is flat out to 18k and can detect 19k to 20k tones.
  
 So anyway whatever technical reason that is causing these SQ quality improvements - it's working.  Now what has amazed me is the degree to which the digital source has effected the SQ.  That has been a revelation to me.


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Guys guys, to lighten up things, why don't we have a laugh at my temporary solution for protecting the F-1?


 

 A thing of beauty!  At least no shorts on the board - how does it sound?


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hey RB,
> 
> Thanks for all... Really appreciate you re-doing your rankings. So helpful to put all of this in an organized, hierarchical perspective.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!  And YES buy the Mutec MC-3+ USB version.  Even for just SPDIF reclocking!
  
 Why?  As the OP pointed out to me the USB version has much improved reclocking - nothing to do with USB!
  
 In fact on the Mutec CA thread one fellow linked to a outside reviewer who had daisy chained 4, yes 4 Mutec 3+ (non-USB) and each one added better SQ, but at a diminishing rate.
  
 Now when he tried the new USB version he said one was equal to three of the non-USB version.  And that was reclocking alone.
  
 Incredible to me that Mutec would not change the naming nomenclature for such a significant upgrade!  Maybe they want to sell 2, 3 or 4 of the non-USB versions to the same user!
  
 So on his advice (which I did doubt) I did some digging - this what I found buried on the Mutec website:
  


> The new Authority for High-resolution Audio Re-Clocking It is widely known that a master clock improves the sound quality of digital audio devices such as CD players and music streamers or mixing desks and DAWs more or less. But carving out finest details in audio recordings to reproduce individual instruments as clearly and with the best spatial resolution as possible is best achieved with high-resolution re-clocking of the audio material. This is what MUTEC’s proprietary re-clocking algorithm paired with the 1G-Clock technology provides at the highest level! Our MC-3+ Smart Clock already impressed critics and users around the world, and t*he MC-3+USB now marks the next generation of re-clocking by MUTEC. Extreme oversampling of incoming data allows the audio to be recombined and merged with a newly generated ultra-low jitter clock signal at ultimate precision, enhancing the re-clocked audio with unparalleled richness of details, spatiality, and musicality.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
So the new clocking scheme (USB version vs non-USB version) uses "Extreme oversampling of incoming data allows the audio to be recombined and merged with a newly generated ultra-low jitter clock signal at ultimate precision"  So much for Upsampling not working!
  
Now some folks who had the non-USB version on the CA thread - asked if there was an upgrade for their units - the answer was no - as a new board had to be designed.
  
So that is why the USB version is this (Red):

  

  

  

  
  
 And the non-USB version is this (blue):

  

  
 So not what you would expect - that the MC-3+ USB is just a MC-3+ with a XMOS USB board added in.
  
 Link to the cascading of multiple non-USB Mutec MC-3+:
 http://mutec-net.com/artikel.php?id=1388254422


----------



## Albrecht

> So that is why the USB version is this (Red):


 
  
 Oh, - awesome. Thanks for that clarification. My apologies, - you mentioned this earlier in the thread and I forgot about that.
  
 So, it might be a really good idea to pick up the Mutec first, save up the monies, - (use the Mutec for USB conversion and Reclocking), - then when the CFO signs the divorce paperwork, (if she hasn't soaked you too badly), - pick up the RedNet 3 and then just use the Mutec 3+ as the reclocker......
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Oh, - awesome. Thanks for that clarification. My apologies, - you mentioned this earlier in the thread and I forgot about that.
> 
> So, it might be a really good idea to pick up the Mutec first, save up the monies, - (use the Mutec for USB conversion and Reclocking), - then when the CFO signs the divorce paperwork, (if she hasn't soaked you too badly), - pick up the RedNet 3 and then just use the Mutec 3+ as the reclocker......
> 
> Cheers,


 

 LOL! Yes!  Those big RED boxes are very hard to hide..and they do look expensive!  My little F-1 never aroused much attention - the big Red piece of audio jewelry had to be carefully camouflaged.
  
 Now I have the Mutec as well - so many pretty LEDs - Ugg!


----------



## Albrecht

When the CFO saw the F-1 I got the inevitable, - "how much did that thing cost?"  When I told her that the case only cost $5.97, - she responded with the (also inevitable) "what other new thing on that shelf is preventing us from going to the Cinque Terra?"


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> When the CFO saw the F-1 I got the inevitable, - "how much did that thing cost?"  When I told her that the case only cost $5.97, - she responded with the (also inevitable) "what other new thing on that shelf is preventing us from going to the Cinque Terra?"


 

 Ha!  For me it's the Christmas Hawaii trip!  
  
 Can you believe we have 52 people viewing this thread right now!  A new record - I'm sure a few laughing with us.  A couple at us... 43 Guests  -someone linked to us.
  


> Currently Viewing *9 Members, 43 Guests*
> Albrecht Unomelodica auvgeek elms hopkins jabbr justbenice rb2013 wushuliu


----------



## BucketInABucket

rb2013 said:


> A thing of beauty!  At least no shorts on the board - how does it sound?


 
 Haha 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yup, no chance of it getting damaged now!
  
 I have an iFi iPower 5V hooked up to it too and I must say, it sounds marvelous into my Basic IIIa. Much better than the old DACMagic, for sure. Now to burn it in...


----------



## Albrecht

> A new record - I'm sure a few laughing with us.


 
  
 or perhaps weeping, - when they too find the remnants of their credit cards when changing the shredder bag....
  
 But on another note, - I'm curious what you think about how far away Dante running AOIP directly into something like the PS Audio Directstream DAC or the Chord CODEX might be?
  
 I doubt that there's something so crazy as far as the NIC card goes that would prevent this, and, there already is a processor to run the FPGA. (I do understand that the CODEX is only UPnP right now).
  
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=90
  
 Of course, for folks like us who are happy with their DACs & don't want to make a change, - we'd be more interested in a Dante-to-SPDIF.
  
 The deafening silence to which the Chord CODEX has been greeted, is pretty incredible.


----------



## rb2013

bucketinabucket said:


> Haha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!  Happy tunes


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> or perhaps weeping, - when they too find the remnants of their credit cards when changing the shredder bag....
> 
> But on another note, - I'm curious what you think about how far away Dante running AOIP directly into something like the PS Audio Directstream DAC or the Chord CODEX might be?
> 
> ...


 
 Well what we need are these DAC companies to incorporate a Dante mini PCIe slot into their boards - like BURL did.  Then as a addon option you just buy a Dante Brooklyn II card and plug it in.  BURL charges $250 retail of their Dante BKII card.
  
 That may be a long ways off - but BURL has it now.
  
 I think the SR follow option that is coming in FR REDNET controller will help things along.


----------



## Sanlitun

bucketinabucket said:


> Guys guys, to lighten up things, why don't we have a laugh at my temporary solution for protecting the F-1?


 
  
 Nice. Personally I chose Tupperware with the ends cut out.
  
 I'm wondering for those of us who are merely going to use the F-1 as a USB connected device if we can have a little bit of comparison and discussion on improving the chain. I have mine going into a DAC and headphones on the same desk so space is an issue I suppose.
  
 Currently I am running it connected to an iFi Gemini cable with the power side drawing from the iFi iUSB power and the data side going into a Jitterbug connected straight into a Win 10 computer. I tried it with both sides of the USB cable going through the iUSB but this seems to have a slight edge. I may try it out with a battery pack I had made for my Audiophilleo and see where that goes.
  
 The connection to the DAC is via a 2 meter 75 ohm cable. 
  
 Any thoughts on improving this?


----------



## mourip

jelt2359 said:


> I currently have the microRendu, and am looking into a Mutec 3+ USB. It sounds amazing, but I'm curious, which is why I'm on this thread. In addition I have a clean optical ethernet network feeding the microRendu, which may or may not matter for the Rednet.
> 
> Has anyone compared the Rednet to this setup? I realise there are functional differences in what they can and cannot do: Rednet can use Foobar and other players; microRendu cannot. On its part microRendu can use Roon, HQPlayer, Logitech Media Server, etc etc, Rednet cannot. Perhaps more important, microRendu -> Mutec 3+ USB still has a USB interface in the chain, Rednet does not.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I had a PPA v3 USB card feeding a REGEN Amber feeding and Mutec 3+ USB feeding an Yggy. These all powered by LPS except for the Mutec.
  
 I replaced the entire chain with a REDNet D16. The difference is stunning. I really hate going down the audiophile subjective adjective path but the D16 is better in every way. Clear, tonally correct to my ears, more solid image, and better phase relationships(my term for when the image seems to move as the frequency changes.
  
 Out of curiosity I would like to try the uRendu but will probably sell off my USB chain to purchase another REDnet product for my headphone rig.
  
 I do want to test my Mutec as a reclocker in my REDnet chain but am waiting for a new AES cable which should be here tomorrow.


----------



## Muziqboy

mourip said:


> I do want to test my Mutec as a reclocker in my REDnet chain but am waiting for a new AES cable which should be here tomorrow.


 
  
 Be prepared when you do this!
  
 You might not want to leave your listening room ever! lol
  
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Albrecht

> DAC companies to incorporate a Dante mini PCIe slot into their boards - like BURL did


 
  
 Right, - sorry, - once again, - I forgot another of your past posts. Just didn't put 2 & 2 together with the BURL. I am not sure if the DirectStream has a mini-PCI slot, - (that their BridgeII plugs into).
  
 I had an (un-broken-in) Directstream in my system & it didn't compare to my APL. (But I do want to stress not broken in).
  
 The Chord CODEX doesn't have such.


----------



## rb2013

sanlitun said:


> Nice. Personally I chose Tupperware with the ends cut out.
> 
> I'm wondering for those of us who are merely going to use the F-1 as a USB connected device if we can have a little bit of comparison and discussion on improving the chain. I have mine going into a DAC and headphones on the same desk so space is an issue I suppose.
> 
> ...


 

 Sounds like a good set-up.  I would say a Regen or Recovery would add in impedance matching, reclocking, and additional ultra low noise power regulation.
  
 A good match with the iUSB2.0 (I have one listed in the classifieds) is the iPurifer2.
  
 I have a Regen also listed in the classifieds at a great price.
  
 I tried a Li Ion battery but preferred LPS power.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Right, - sorry, - once again, - I forgot another of your past posts. Just didn't put 2 & 2 together with the BURL. I am not sure if the DirectStream has a mini-PCI slot, - (that their BridgeII plugs into).
> 
> I had an (un-broken-in) Directstream in my system & it didn't compare to my APL. (But I do want to stress not broken in).
> 
> The Chord CODEX doesn't have such.


 

 According to BURL the board needs to have  some Dante logic chips also - besides the BKII card.
  
 We will see!


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > The Mutec provides GI as well.
> ...


 
 Yes I believe you are correct on the Mutec GI.  Would be good if you could confirm.


----------



## jelt2359

mourip said:


> I had a PPA v3 USB card feeding a REGEN Amber feeding and Mutec 3+ USB feeding an Yggy. These all powered by LPS except for the Mutec.
> 
> I replaced the entire chain with a REDNet D16. The difference is stunning. I really hate going down the audiophile subjective adjective path but the D16 is better in every way. Clear, tonally correct to my ears, more solid image, and better phase relationships(my term for when the image seems to move as the frequency changes.
> 
> ...




Thank you, this is helpful. If you ever get a chance to try the microRendu let me know. While both the microRendu and your previous setup has the regen technology, what would make a bigger difference is audio going over ethernet, which the Rednet and microRendu both do but your previous USB chain does not.


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> I have this optical bridge, as recommended by Romaz. The guy took top honours in innerfidelity's big sound event in terms of being able to tell tom from harry in a blind ab test of amps, so I trust his ears a tonne. He also, happily, tested multiple high end servers (caps, aurender, total dac etc etc). This optical tweak was something he told me worked marvels. With all the parts available from Amazon for less than $100-150 or so, and no software needed, it was an easy test. Also easy to unplug the optical devices's ethernet out and use an Ethernet cable direct from the router instead to compare. My friends and I can personally tell the difference immediately. Lower noise, less harsh presentation, and cleaner all around. It's now a permanent fixture in my chain.
> 
> Ymmv, but I think it's worth a shot.


 
 Well if someone with a REDNET would try this and report - I'm all ears (and eyes).  I believe the server/renders you mention might respond differently.  It could make a difference - big enough to be worth the effort?  Maybe on longer runs then 1 meter - the RFI/EMI shielding could be benefical.  You mention 'less harsh presentation' - the thing that has really stood out with the AOIP REDNET - the liquid like sound signature - the smoothest most musical I have heard since my sota analog days - just coupled with much, much lower noise floor, better detail and a spooky realistic sound field presentation.  I just can't imagine it getting any smoother.  But for those who have faith worth a try.
  
 This was interesting - the ethernet noise filters that many have said made a big difference on these kind of ethernet networking devices - had a very small impact on a Ravenna AES67 Ethernet machine.  Same for these high end ethernet cables - min effect:
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/sotm2/1.html


jelt2359 said:


> I currently have the microRendu, and am looking into a Mutec 3+ USB. It sounds amazing, but I'm curious, which is why I'm on this thread. In addition I have a clean optical ethernet network feeding the microRendu, which may or may not matter for the Rednet.
> 
> Has anyone compared the Rednet to this setup? I realise there are functional differences in what they can and cannot do: Rednet can use Foobar and other players; microRendu cannot. On its part microRendu can use Roon, HQPlayer, Logitech Media Server, etc etc, Rednet cannot. Perhaps more important, microRendu -> Mutec 3+ USB still has a USB interface in the chain, Rednet does not.
> 
> ...


 
 I thought someone corrected me on the ability for the mircorendu to use any player - some new s/w I believe - it was posted awhile back.  Don't quote me on that - I was reading on the REDNET CA thread someone with the microrendu/Mutec had ordered a REDNET 16d.  So check over there for their take on that comparison.  You could ask him which DAC- but I think it was a Yggie.
  


> 06-13-2016, 12:35 PM#11​​
> *gldgate*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## jelt2359

Thank you- good spot. Exactly what I'm looking for. On top of the yggy, he has that optical bridge like I do, uses the same short curious USB link, and like me uses hqplayer in NAA output mode. Nice. I will get more details from him. 

Good news if the microrendu has added other players. I always suspected they would do so at one point, but CA users seem biggest on HQP, Roon, Jriver, so I can see why they may have prioritised those. With always networked devices like this though, I imagine updating player support via firmware upgrades should be simple.


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> Thank you- good spot. Exactly what I'm looking for. On top of the yggy, he has that optical bridge like I do, uses the same short curious USB link, and like me uses hqplayer in NAA output mode. Nice. I will get more details from him.
> 
> Good news if the microrendu has added other players. I always suspected they would do so at one point, but CA users seem biggest on HQP, Roon, Jriver, so I can see why they may have prioritised those. With always networked devices like this though, I imagine updating player support via firmware upgrades should be simple.


 

 Well I hope he tries the optical vs twisted copper on the RN16d - as a comparison.
  
 Has a Mutec MC-3+ USB as well - will give it a go at reclocking too.


----------



## Clemmaster

Any thoughts on BLU link? http://bssaudio.com/solutions#blu-link
  
 No license fees, apparently.
  
 I will receive the Rednet 3 tomorrow and will be able to compare with uRendu + F1 over the weekend, probably.


----------



## jelt2359

rb2013 said:


> Well I hope he tries the optical vs twisted copper on the RN16d - as a comparison.
> 
> Has a Mutec MC-3+ USB as well - will give it a go at reclocking too.


 
 Forgot about that, but yes- that's another thing I'm looking to add into my chain so that's wonderful. This guy and I have been shopping at the same store!


----------



## Lord Raven

I'm thinking Recovery/Regen going into F-1 to my DAC. Guessing from comments, you cannot have clean signal with Recovery or Regen alone, got to add F-1 into the mix. 

Can you point me to the link to your sale thread RB?


----------



## joelha

rb2013 said:


> Well if someone with a REDNET would try this and report - I'm all ears (and eyes).  I believe the server/renders you mention might respond differently.  It could make a difference - big enough to be worth the effort?  Maybe on longer runs then 1 meter - the RFI/EMI shielding could be benefical.  You mention 'less harsh presentation' - the thing that has really stood out with the AOIP REDNET - the liquid like sound signature - the smoothest most musical I have heard since my sota analog days - just coupled with much, much lower noise floor, better detail and a spooky realistic sound field presentation.  I just can't imagine it getting any smoother.  But for those who have faith worth a try.
> 
> This was interesting - the ethernet noise filters that many have said made a big difference on these kind of ethernet networking devices - had a very small impact on a Ravenna AES67 Ethernet machine.  Same for these high end ethernet cables - min effect:
> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/sotm2/1.html
> I thought someone corrected me on the ability for the mircorendu to use any player - some new s/w I believe - it was posted awhile back.  Don't quote me on that - I was reading on the REDNET CA thread someone with the microrendu/Mutec had ordered a REDNET 16d.  So check over there for their take on that comparison.  You could ask him which DAC- but I think it was a Yggie.




Why the D16 vs. the Rednet 3?

Is it the AES connection or is there another reason?

Has anyone yet made a sonic comparison between the Rednet devices and the microRendu?

Joel


----------



## mourip

joelha said:


> Why the D16 vs. the Rednet 3?
> 
> Is it the AES connection or is there another reason?
> 
> ...


 
 "gldgate" over on CA has a uRendu and receives his D16 tomorrow so we are all waiting for his report!
  
 The D3 does not support 176K if that matters to you and also has two ethernet ports so you can dedicate one directly to your server and then use the other one to connect to your LAN. Depending upon your switch this can overcome some latency issues.


----------



## joelha

Great answer, mourip.
  
 Hard to understand how 176 isn't covered, but fair enough.
  
 If the D16 covers that rate, adds AES and a second ethernet port, that's difference enough for me.
  
 Thanks a lot.
  
 Joel


----------



## rb2013

clemmaster said:


> Any thoughts on BLU link? http://bssaudio.com/solutions#blu-link
> 
> No license fees, apparently.
> 
> I will receive the Rednet 3 tomorrow and will be able to compare with uRendu + F1 over the weekend, probably.


 

 Interesting - although where is the virtual sound card?


----------



## rb2013

joelha said:


> Why the D16 vs. the Rednet 3?
> 
> Is it the AES connection or is there another reason?
> 
> ...


 

 Yes and the fact that the RN16 does 178k sampling - which the RN3 doesn't.  It's because the RN3 is based on the Audinate Dante Brooklyn I card and the RN16d is based on the Brooklyn II card.
  
 They appear to have the same SQ - just a few added features (useful for studios) and 178k sampling.
  
 But this is my question - is it better to spend the extra money on a Mutec MC-3+ USB to use as a SPDIF/AES reclocker.
  
 This is a mighty great combination.
  
 So REDNET 16D = $1600
 or
 REDNET 3 + Mutec MC-3+ USB = $2000
 ?


----------



## rb2013

Last night listening to the REDNET 3 with the Mutec 3+ USB reclocking SPDIF 192k in/out. 
  
 I just have to say - incredible!  The Mutec as reclocker just adds more of the natural AOIP SQ goodness.

The added bass depth catches your attention, vocals with more of the inner lit quality, an even tighter focus and clarity. No change in the rich natural tonal signature, a tad greater energy and dynamics.

These two, the Rednet 3 and the Mutec 3+ USB are just a great combination.
  
This has to be near sota computer audio!
  
Now I have a BJC 1.5m coming to run between the RN3 and Mutec.  Using a cheap best buy last night.  Now thinking of getting a better spdif to run between the Mutec and APL DAC.
  
The Audio Sensibility Silver Statement is very good - outperforming the other digital cables I have had recently (SR Tesla Apex, Silnote Poseidon, Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme, etc...)
  
Would love to find a Nordost Valhalla or Odin, possibly a Siltech G7, PAD Dominus - used of course!
  
 https://www.thecableco.com/category.aspx?cid=437


----------



## rb2013

Oh Dang i just found one of my favorite 'gotta try' digital cables.  The Purist Audio Design Colossus Digital - Unbelievable price!  $349 new on Ebay. 1.5M to boot!   The Current Aqueous Aureus-Luminist - goes for near $800 in a 1.5m.
  

  

  
 They use a unique fluid shielding system.  I have heard many great things about these cables - but they were just too expensive - in the $1000-$4000 range.
  
 I will go AES out of the Mutec and using a Canare AES to SPDIF (110ohm to 75ohm) and 10db attenuator into my DAC SPDIF Coax.
  
 I have done this before to good effect.
  
 Then use the Audio Sens Silver Statement from the RN3 to the Mutec.  Oh this audio addiction!


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> But this is my question - is it better to spend the extra money on a Mutec MC-3+ USB to use as a SPDIF reclocker.
> 
> This is a mighty great combination.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If I had it to do over again and knew what the Mutec added I would pick door number 2. This would still give me the AES into my Yggy which was my first choice.
  
 My original plan was to sell the Mutec so I ponied up for the D16 to get an AES out jack. The added ethernet port is a plus however.
  
 I have excellent hindsight!


----------



## Albrecht

> They use a unique fluid shielding system.


 
 Wow...
  
 Excellent find on the Purist cable. Can't wait to read about the results....


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> If I had it to do over again and knew what the Mutec added I would pick door number 2. This would still give me the AES into my Yggy which was my first choice.
> 
> My original plan was to sell the Mutec so I ponied up for the D16 to get an AES out jack. The added ethernet port is a plus however.
> 
> I have excellent hindsight!


 

 Yes I agree - you know the pioneers -they're the ones with arrows in their backs!
  
 Well the ethernet port issue is easily resolved by adding in a inexpensive 2 port Intel NIC.  Which I will try - as from what I read has better performance then the Realtek on board chips.
  
 They're only $20-$30.
  
 Yes The Mutec would give you AES out to the Yggie


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Wow...
> 
> Excellent find on the Purist cable. Can't wait to read about the results....


 

 I may give this one a try as well - PAD Vesta.  Very good price.  $170 for a 1.5M
  
 https://www.thecableco.com/Product/Vesta-Luminist-Digital


----------



## Albrecht

> I'm thinking Recovery/Regen going into F-1 to my DAC.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 There are many ways to get good sound. No one way is "right."
  
 That being said, - what is your DAC? And do you like the sound of  your DAC? The F-1 is a very great, and cheap, interface to convert USB to SPDIF. It also does some isolation. It has an excellent clock. It is the best USB to SPDIF converter that I've used. I require a RCA COAX SPDIF input for my DAC. If i did not, - I may have made another choice.
  
 If your DAC has an USB input, - and using it yields high SQ, - I wouldn't buy an F-1 for its isolation or clocking.
  
 Many people want to get rid of these external boxes to mitigate issues with the USB bus on computers. If you fall into this boat, and you like the program that you use on your PC or MAC; I would go the ICRON isochronous gigabit LAN; that many assert would solve so many "problems."
  
 To purchase the F-1, i used Freeshopping(dot)com and the Taobab store to avoid the lies of Shenzhen audio from Ebay.


----------



## rb2013

There is a great MOT poster over on the AOIP thread - I want to share some of his comments on AOIP:
  

 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/3c/100x100px-LS-3c5d6de5_OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest2.png[/img] 
 
rb2013
Author of *The 6922 Tube Review*





 
*online*
 
4,740 Posts. Joined 4/2013
 



kelowna said:


> I don't think Ravenna or Dante can be beat for audio. The reason for this is because the audio isn't even processed on the connected PC. There's an ultra low noise CPU on the Dante/Ravenna boards that's actually processing the audio as direct as possible. It spits I2S/DSD direct out of the FPGA on the board. The audio is simply being sent from the server computer over Ethernet as data similar to audio files streaming in off a NAS. With Ravenna a realtime OS is actually processing and sending the audio out of the server computer in the most efficient way possible.


 

 Thanks for sharing this info - we are so used to noisy troubled USB - this a whole other computer audio paradigm.  So as I have said we need to reset our thinking - from other ethernet audio protocols (like DNLA/UPNP, etc...) and esp from USB.
  
 This makes perfect sense from the Audinate information on Dante.  And goes far to explain this sea change in audio SQ.


----------



## wushuliu

I've been inspired by a thread on tirnahifi to try out an sd card player instead of a pc. It will involve some modding of course but well worth it if it means not being dependent on my pc. At least until an affordable AOIP solution appears...


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> I've been inspired by a thread on tirnahifi to try out an sd card player instead of a pc. It will involve some modding of course but well worth it if it means not being dependent on my pc. At least until an affordable AOIP solution appears...


 

 Interesting - I'd need a stack of SD cards a couple of feet thick - but wonder how it sounds?


----------



## Chefano

IMO Mojo´s usb never sound right, its good but far beyond all the claims it has.
 Just received my F1 today, and connecting it directly to my Mac mini and using it as an coax source to mojo  oh boy, mojo has become a beast. 
  
 Unfortunately Im unable to use my geek LPS with F1. Would a iUSB3.0 micro/nano be an improvement?
  
 Regards


----------



## Albrecht

> Would a iUSB3.0 micro/nano be an improvement?


 
  
 Hi,
  
 I have not heard any iFi gear. But with the F-1 limitations in external power, - iFI's "Y" USB power seems like it would be the way to go. I also know that Teradak makes one as well. I know that I would go with the cheapest option first.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## atomicbob

Ok, I have developed a way to send a simultaneous stream of data from JRiver MC over both USB with XMOS ASIO and EN with Dante ASIO. It involves running a virtual cable, virtual ASIO bridge and two kernel streaming repeaters. The data is bit accurate to the ASIO drivers both receiving identical data. Now I have two paths that may be A/B compared with a Zana Deux,  HD800 and PRT in operation. The two digital paths past the digital T are:
  
 XMOS ASIO -> USB -> Gustard U12 XMOS -> 110 ohm AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ -> 75 ohm Coax SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA -> ZD ch 3
 Dante ASIO -> EN -> Focusrite D16  -> 110 ohm AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA -> ZD ch 2 
  
 The output of the Zana Deux:
 ZD -> PRT -> Norne Audio Draug ->HD800 
  
 The levels are very closely matched between the two DAC RCA outputs. Everything has been allowed several hours to reach equilibrium, except the DACs which have been powered up for many months.
  
 Now if you are expecting to read that I heard major differences, you will be disappointed. Both paths sounded excellent. I am having a bit of difficulty hearing much, if any, difference. Note that both paths include a galvanic isolation in the form of AES/EBU, though the D16 is double isolated with the EN as well. *Increasing the ZD volume to full (which would be ear splitting) the following differences can be heard with no signal playing, very faintly:*
  
 U12 - MC-3+ - GuMB path has some hiss
 D16 - Yggdrasil path has a faint hum
  
*Please remember the extreme measures to find a clearly audible difference involve amplifier gain consistent with 115 ~ 120 dB SPL at the ear and a residual room ambient level of 25 to 30 dBC, far lower than most listening spaces. In a normal room ambient neither sound would have been audible.*
  
 At normal levels the hiss and hum are not directly audible though one could argue that they add muck to the overall audible presentation, *probably 90 dB beneath the signal.*
  
 I could live with either combination and be happy. I probably will spend some time with the MC-3+ on the D16 - Yggdrasil path but won't be able to directly A/B compare except to the U12 - GuMB, though that path will have a galvanic connection to the USB interface, which I expect will bring additional noise to the party. The flexibility of Audio over EN compared to Audio over USB is huge. Clear advantage to AOIP systems. No more 16 foot 5 inch length restriction nor chasing unicorns in special cables.


----------



## panhead

wushuliu said:


> I've been inspired by a thread on tirnahifi to try out an sd card player instead of a pc. It will involve some modding of course but well worth it if it means not being dependent on my pc. At least until an affordable AOIP solution appears...


 
 Me too,  but never pulled the trigger!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

clemmaster said:


> Any thoughts on BLU link? http://bssaudio.com/solutions#blu-link
> 
> No license fees, apparently.
> 
> I will receive the Rednet 3 tomorrow and will be able to compare with uRendu + F1 over the weekend, probably.




I really look forward to your impressions comparing the two. Please post back when you have some time to assess the differences.


----------



## gldgate

atomicbob said:


> Ok, I have developed a way to send a simultaneous stream of data from JRiver MC over both USB with XMOS ASIO and EN with Dante ASIO. It involves running a virtual cable, virtual ASIO bridge and two kernel streaming repeaters. The data is bit accurate to the ASIO drivers both receiving identical data. Now I have two paths that may be A/B compared with a Zana Deux,  HD800 and PRT in operation. The two digital paths past the digital T are:
> 
> XMOS ASIO -> USB -> Gustard U12 XMOS -> 110 ohm AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ -> 75 ohm Coax SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA -> ZD ch 3
> Dante ASIO -> EN -> Focusrite D16  -> 110 ohm AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA -> ZD ch 2
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for your impressions Bob. Your posts and measurements of the Yggy last year were instrumental in my purchase decision. Will be watching out for your D16-MC3-Yggy post. I receive my D16 tomorrow and also will also be using that exact same set up.


----------



## jelt2359

Echo that. Thank you. I personally can live with hiss; but not hum. Would be interesting to see if others get hum as well.


----------



## rb2013

chefano said:


>


 

 Yes certainly!  The iPower while still SMPS are very good.  And that is what powers the iUSB3.0 plus it's own relcocking and filtering


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Ok, I have developed a way to send a simultaneous stream of data from JRiver MC over both USB with XMOS ASIO and EN with Dante ASIO. It involves running a virtual cable, virtual ASIO bridge and two kernel streaming repeaters. The data is bit accurate to the ASIO drivers both receiving identical data. Now I have two paths that may be A/B compared with a Zana Deux,  HD800 and PRT in operation. The two digital paths past the digital T are:
> 
> XMOS ASIO -> USB -> Gustard U12 XMOS -> 110 ohm AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ -> 75 ohm Coax SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA -> ZD ch 3
> Dante ASIO -> EN -> Focusrite D16  -> 110 ohm AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA -> ZD ch 2
> ...


 

 Great stuff!  Well I'm sure a little run time on the 16d will help it - it did on my 3.
  
 Your U12 is modded right - Crystek clocks, separate LPS to the clocks etc...


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> Echo that. Thank you. I personally can live with hiss; but not hum. Would be interesting to see if others get hum as well.


 

 No hum here!  At a level that would destroy my ears and speakers.
  
 Note my AC chain to my RN3:
  
 Teslaplex>Audience Ar1p (line balancer and conditioner)>Art Audio PB 4X4PRO (AC line common mode and differential mode filter and isolation - one for DDC, DAC, PC)>Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme PC>REDNET 3


----------



## mhamel

jelt2359 said:


> Echo that. Thank you. I personally can live with hiss; but not hum. Would be interesting to see if others get hum as well.


 
  
 I hear zero hum through my D16 at any volume.


----------



## mourip

jelt2359 said:


> Echo that. Thank you. I personally can live with hiss; but not hum. Would be interesting to see if others get hum as well.


 
  
 No hum added from my D16. 
  
 Sounds like a problem unit or ground loop issues?


----------



## atomicbob

The level of amplifier gain necessary to hear either the hiss or hum would have produced 115 to 120 dB SPL at the ear with music playing. And both were very faint as heard in a special room that has extraordinarily low ambient sound levels. Same setup in normal space would have masked both. Most people would have found both inaudible. So please don't read too much into the extremes to which I resorted to observe a difference between the two digital chains. They both provide exemplary sound quality.


----------



## jelt2359

atomicbob said:


> The level of amplifier gain necessary to hear either the hiss or hum would have produced 115 to 120 dB SPL at the ear with music playing. And both were very faint as heard in a special room that has extraordinarily low ambient sound levels. Same setup in normal space would have masked both. Most people would have found both inaudible. So please don't read too much into the extremes to which I resorted to observe a difference between the two digital chains. They both provide exemplary sound quality.


 
 Thank you for the clarification. Anyway, your findings seem to suggest that having USB in the first chain (but with a Mutec 3+ USB so USB was not the final output) did not seem detrimental to the sound quality overall. Would that be fair to say?


----------



## mhamel

atomicbob said:


> The level of amplifier gain necessary to hear either the hiss or hum would have produced 115 to 120 dB SPL at the ear with music playing. And both were very faint as heard in a special room that has extraordinarily low ambient sound levels. Same setup in normal space would have masked both. Most people would have found both inaudible. So please don't read too much into the extremes to which I resorted to observe a difference between the two digital chains. They both provide exemplary sound quality.


 
  
 Understood, though I will stand by my observation that there is zero hum with my D16 in my system at any volume level. Not being contentious, I am just extremely picky about things like that and test thoroughly, too.


----------



## atomicbob

jelt2359 said:


> Thank you for the clarification. Anyway, your findings seem to suggest that having USB in the first chain (but with a Mutec 3+ USB so USB was not the final output) did not seem detrimental to the sound quality overall. Would that be fair to say?


 
 It would be fair to say that both digital chains allowed the two different DACs, Gugnir MB and Yggdrasil, to provide excellent auditory experience and I would be very very happy to use either setup for my recreational listening. Matter of fact, I will keep both chains operational for awhile. Maybe over a longer period of listening some difference will become evident. And to re-iterate, the hiss / hum difference was with extreme gain and could possibly be due to the two different DACs used.


----------



## jelt2359

atomicbob said:


> It would be fair to say that both digital chains allowed the two different DACs, Gugnir MB and Yggdrasil, to provide excellent auditory experience and I would be very very happy to use either setup for my recreational listening. Matter of fact, I will keep both chains operational for awhile. Maybe over a longer period of listening some difference will become evident. And to re-iterate, the hiss / hum difference was with extreme gain and could possibly be due to the two different DACs used.




Thank you. Did you try the Mutec with the Rednet?


----------



## atomicbob

mhamel said:


> Understood, though I will stand by my observation that there is zero hum with my D16 in my system at any volume level. Not being contentious, I am just extremely picky about things like that and test thoroughly, too.


 
 The Hum / Hiss difference, barely audible with extreme gain in a listening space that is probably much lower in residual ambient noise than most recreational listeners' rooms, might be due to the two different DACs used. This weekend, after corporate duties have been fulfilled, I will re-examine the two chains with SPDIF inputs to both DACs and then swap the DACs to see if the Hiss / Hum (at extreme gains) follows the DACs rather than the digital chains.
  
 Really, I am amazed at the level of reaction to my observation. I am certain that when I have time to put these devices on the dScope, the measured noise floor will be quite low. And for all those who have "dead quiet" systems, I may assure you I can measure residual hum on EVERY SYSTEM. Even battery powered systems, unless removed to a remote environment devoid of AC mains, will have 50/60 and/or 100/120 Hz show up in the spectrum analyzer.
  
 One final note. To reiterate, I found both chains with two different models of Schiit DACs, to provide excellent sound quality. My interest in this is beyond recreational listening and concerns use in both of my acoustic laboratories for research.


----------



## atomicbob

jelt2359 said:


> Thank you. Did you try the Mutec with the Rednet?


 
 Briefly, though I became excited at the thought of developing the USB / EN simultaneous A/B comparison system and have not spent an appropriate amount of time listening to the D16 -> MC-3+ combination. So I will refrain from commenting until I listen to for a sufficient amount of time to a variety of music in my library.


----------



## jelt2359

atomicbob said:


> Briefly, though I became excited at the thought of developing the USB / EN simultaneous A/B comparison system and have not spent an appropriate amount of time listening to the D16 -> MC-3+ combination. So I will refrain from commenting until I listen to for a sufficient amount of time to a variety of music in my library.




That's fair, and that was the main comparison I was interested in also. But I do have a yggy with a USB in my chain (microrendu, in my case) so I'll be waiting on your corporate duties to be fulfilled and the results you find.


----------



## atomicbob

I am surprised that no one has commented on, or asked about how one can multicast simultaneously a Windows OS media player audio stream to two ASIO drivers and then send out two very different physical interfaces, USB and EN. Has this been done before? I don't recall seeing anyone doing this anywhere, but maybe someone can point me to a report of such.


----------



## atomicbob

jelt2359 said:


> That's fair, and that was the main comparison I was interested in also. But I do have a yggy with a USB in my chain (microrendu, in my case) so I'll be waiting on your corporate duties to be fulfilled and the results you find.


 
 I really want to find time for measurements in my lab of the various systems. That, however will take several days to setup and capture. It is non-trivial to setup experimental systems such that we may observe noise floors below -120 dB FS. My measurements of the Yggdrasil were down to nearly -160 dBFS. I rarely have enough contiguous time available for such discretionary measurements and assure high quality data.


----------



## mhamel

atomicbob said:


> I am surprised that no one has commented on, or asked about how one can multicast simultaneously a Windows OS media player audio stream to two ASIO drivers and then send out two very different physical interfaces, USB and EN. Has this been done before? I don't recall seeing anyone doing this anywhere, but maybe someone can point me to a report of such.


 
  
 It's pretty simple in JRMC, you can link multiple output devices and play them simultaneously... I've used it for doing comparisons of multiple DACs / interfaces a number of times.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> The level of amplifier gain necessary to hear either the hiss or hum would have produced 115 to 120 dB SPL at the ear with music playing. And both were very faint as heard in a special room that has extraordinarily low ambient sound levels. Same setup in normal space would have masked both. Most people would have found both inaudible. So please don't read too much into the extremes to which I resorted to observe a difference between the two digital chains. They both provide exemplary sound quality.


 

 Your Zana Deux has tubes no - maybe some tube noise in the mix...


----------



## atomicbob

mhamel said:


> It's pretty simple in JRMC, you can link multiple output devices and play them simultaneously... I've used it for doing comparisons of multiple DACs / interfaces a number of times.


 
 Excellent! That was way easier than the virtual ASIO bridge, virtual audio cable and KS repeaters I setup. One thing I still am unsure of is why the JRiver linked Zone method consumes 10% more CPU than the more complex virtual setup. But for simplicity the linked Zone method is MUCH easier.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> It would be fair to say that both digital chains allowed the two different DACs, Gugnir MB and Yggdrasil, to provide excellent auditory experience and I would be very very happy to use either setup for my recreational listening. Matter of fact, I will keep both chains operational for awhile. Maybe over a longer period of listening some difference will become evident. And to re-iterate, the hiss / hum difference was with extreme gain and could possibly be due to the two different DACs used.


 

 Well in my system the results are quite different.  And after some more careful listening to the RN3 with the Mutec 3+ USB (better clocking then the non-USB 3+), I'm bumping up my rating of the RN3/Mutec 3+USB combination by 5 points.
  
 They really have a synergy going on:
  
One note on the SQ change from the Mutec 3+USB to my own uber USB chain +the XU208 F-1 to the AOIP REDNET.  The step-up from 1 to 2 was noticeable and welcome - but the leap from 2 to 3 was really flooring.  Adding the Mutec as spdif reclocker - just widened the gap.
 
But this was on my main system which is highly resolving - in my office system the difference are there and noticeable - but not as dramatic.
 
The change from a very good USB with an extreme attention to AC and DC power. and a uber USB data chain to the AOIP is really a sea change in SQ.  As if a low level distortion has been lifted - there is just such a natural ease, smoothness to AOIP that is very pleasing.  More analog then digital - but with a ink black noise floor and deeper, tighter bass extension.
 
Now my APL DAC is really in another league then the Yggie - and should be as it costs 3X more - so maybe that's why.  The APL can scale better with an improved source.
 
But as with all things audio YMMV - Cheers!
 
But here would be my current USB DDC ranking and where the AOIP stands in contrast:
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+USB (SPDIF reclocker)                                                    240
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord                                                                               220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB               170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord                                                        155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2                                                   145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen                                                               135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious                                                                                   135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                                                                      130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2                                                    125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                                                                          110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                                                                   109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                                                                      108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                                                                              100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                                                                 95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                                                                    92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                                                                             85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                                                                          81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                                                                    76
Gustard U12 stock                                                                                                   72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                                                                      65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                                                                      65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                                                                              60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                                                                         50
M2Tech Hiface                                                                                                         40


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Your Zana Deux has tubes no - maybe some tube noise in the mix...


 
 With 50 ohm input termination and full gain, even in my very quiet room (currently measuring < 30 dBC, 23 dBA), the amplifier hum is inaudible. But if you look at my technical measurements for both the Gungnir MB and Yggdrasil you can see a very low level of 60 Hz at below -120 dBFS. Repeating the listening with the Gungnir MB, the hum is also there but one has to strain to hear it in the presence of the more predominant hiss. *Again, I reiterate, these noise observations are only barely perceptible with ridiculous levels of amplifier gain into a very sensitive headphone in an extraordinarily quiet room. **If we take any of the systems any of you own and subject to the same extreme conditions I am willing to bet we find a barely perceptible noise of some sort as well.*
  
 To put the level of quiet in my listening room into perspective, the noise from a Toshiba core i7 Satellite laptop when running at a very low RPM (just barely turning) is perceived as positively loud in the room.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> With 50 ohm input termination and full gain, even in my very quiet room (currently measuring < 30 dBC, 23 dBA), the amplifier hum is inaudible. But if you look at my technical measurements for both the Gungnir MB and Yggdrasil you can see a very low level of 60 Hz at below -120 dBFS. Repeating the listening with the Gungnir MB, the hum is also there but one has to strain to hear it in the presence of the more predominant hiss. *Again, I reiterate, these noise observations are only barely perceptible with ridiculous levels of amplifier gain into a very sensitive headphone in an extraordinarily quiet room. **If we take any of the systems any of you own and subject to the same extreme conditions I am willing to bet we find a barely perceptible noise of some sort as well.*


 

 Curious - what do you use for AC line treatment?  You're in Seattle right?  Big cities have horrible AC noise - at least that is my experience.  I'm in Gig Harbor and we have our own power plant - and public utility - and no industry.  And the AC line still has noise.


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Curious - what do you use for AC line treatment?  You're in Seattle right?  Big cities have horrible AC noise - at least that is my experience.  I'm in Gig Harbor and we have our own power plant - and public utility - and no industry.  And the AC line still has noise.


 
 I use commercial powerline filtration in both my Redmond Campus and Lynnwood acoustic labs. Both are setup such that I can make electrical and acoustic measurements that are exemplary in the business. CSA and IEC regularly request input from me on such.
  
 Bring your system to my lab and I will demonstrate things you normally would never, ever hear. That is why my comments about very minor perceptions should be taken with that perspective. At this point I am regretting making any observations whatever, as it appears to be focused upon out of context. Both systems offer exemplary sound quality, far above the common, typical recreational listener's setup.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> I use commercial powerline filtration in both my Redmond Campus and Lynnwood acoustic labs. Both are setup such that I can make electrical and acoustic measurements that are exemplary in the business. CSA and IEC regularly request input from me on such.
> 
> Bring your system to my lab and I will demonstrate things you normally would never, ever hear. That is why my comments about very minor perceptions should be taken with that perspective. At this point I am regretting making any observations whatever, as it appears to be focused upon out of context.


 

 No we welcome your comments - it's just that you seem to make a point about this hum you are hearing, even at a low level.  And many of us are not, so just trying think out loud why?
  
 I am curious about your commercial AC powerline filtration - do you have a model number or details.  Is your audio system isolated from the other test gear you have?  Separate grounding scheme?
  
 I may be obsessed with power quality  - and with my old $30k analog system it was not as critical (although I had a separate 20Amp line installed with separate copper bar grounding).  Now with digital I find it very, very important.  These femto clocks seem to be highly sensitive to power noise.
  
 I think the next path on the REDNET train would be to replace the SMPS with a better LPS supply.  Was hoping for your thoughts in that regard.
  
 One question on your Gustard U12 - is it stock or modded?  I remember from my old U12 thread someone mentioning some mods you did on yours.  Always curious on what mods work.

 Cheers!


----------



## mhamel

atomicbob said:


> Excellent! That was way easier than the virtual ASIO bridge, virtual audio cable and KS repeaters I setup. One thing I still am unsure of is why the JRiver linked Zone method consumes 10% more CPU than the more complex virtual setup. But for simplicity the linked Zone method is MUCH easier.


 
  
 It's a great feature, has come in handy more than once.  
  
 Dangerous Music sent me a 2nd Convert-2 last week to do some testing, and out of curiosity I've been doing some A-Bing to see if I'd noticed any differences between my well burned-in unit and the new one they sent, along with comparing the F-1, Rednet and built-in XMOS based USB input on the C2. 
  
 The most I've tried simultaneously so far has been 4, and it had no issues, drops, hiccups, etc.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> It's a great feature, has come in handy more than once.
> 
> Dangerous Music sent me a 2nd Convert-2 last week to do some testing, and out of curiosity I've been doing some A-Bing to see if I'd noticed any differences between my well burned-in unit and the new one they sent, along with comparing the F-1, Rednet and built-in XMOS based USB input on the C2.
> 
> The most I've tried simultaneously so far has been 4, and it had no issues, drops, hiccups, etc.


 

 Did the new Convert-2 solve the on board USB unlock issues? 
  
 So far the RN3 has been rock steady - two weeks 24/7 not a single hiccup or error.


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> No we welcome your comments - it's just that you seem to make a point about this hum you are hearing, even at a low level.  And many of us are not, so just trying think out loud why?
> 
> I am curious about your commercial AC powerline filtration - do you have a model number or details.  Is your audio system isolated from the other test gear you have?  Separate grounding scheme?
> 
> ...


 
 The point of observation with regard to the *almost imperceptible* hum/hiss difference is that currently it is currently the only difference I perceive between the two paths. A larger difference may occur when I have time to sit quiet and audition both paths using SPDIF instead of AES/EBU.
  
 Both labs have dedicated service available. In Lynnwood there are several 15 and 20 amp 120V runs. In Redmond they are dedicated 20 amp at both 120 and 208 3 phase. The line conditioners at both places vary but most are of the Furman variety used on pro-audio live sound setups.
  
 My U12 is unmodified. Modifications don't fly when used in a lab that receives scrutiny from FDA, IEC, CSA, etc. While the mods may be superior, auditors tend to not be as enlightened and prefer to see stock equipment.


----------



## atomicbob

One further perspective on my interest in all of this. Imagine my joy of thinking that I may substitute a single ethernet cable in place of a 12 or 24 channel shielded twisted pair analog copper snake when developing a complex acoustic experiment requiring multiple channels in each direction between the control room and the live space. Especially if this experiment must be transportable to other locations with all connections required to be carted. Cannot expect inter-room snakes to be pre-installed in Outside Area Test Sites (OATS). Maintaining high integrity of the signals sent and received for audition and measurements is paramount. An interface such as my RME Fireface UC has the 16 ft 5 in USB cable restriction so the expensive and heavy copper snakes must be employed. A remote Focusrite Dante system with all cables short and local to the sound source and measurement mics and a single Cat 6 cable will be most welcome along with facilitating a much faster setup. Now that this also results in better sound quality for recreational listening is a bonus for me.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Did the new Convert-2 solve the on board USB unlock issues?
> 
> So far the RN3 has been rock steady - two weeks 24/7 not a single hiccup or error.


 
  
 It did... I have not had one issue with the new one in almost two straight weeks.  I asked them if anything has changed, but the support person I've been working with wasn't sure. I have to reach out to them today to see how they want to handle it - if I need to send mine in for a change/update of some type or if they're going to swap them out. I have to say again that I have been completely impressed by their level of attention and customer service on this... especially given that I'm outside of their primary market and not their typical customer.
  
 I don't plan on going back to USB, but it's good to know that the issue is resolved.
  
 The D16 has been rock-solid for me, not one hiccup in weeks and it stays on/connected 24/7. I use this PC for more than just music, and no matter what I've thrown at it, it just works and sounds amazing... just especially so with music.


----------



## atomicbob

mhamel said:


> It's a great feature, has come in handy more than once.
> 
> Dangerous Music sent me a 2nd Convert-2 last week to do some testing, and out of curiosity I've been doing some A-Bing to see if I'd noticed any differences between my well burned-in unit and the new one they sent, along with comparing the F-1, Rednet and built-in XMOS based USB input on the C2.
> 
> The most I've tried simultaneously so far has been 4, and it had no issues, drops, hiccups, etc.


 
 I found the 10% CPU consumption difference. When running multiple zones in JRMC the vst chain I use is duplicated in each zone. When using my virtual cable method, only one vst chain is employed.
  
 So the JRMC multiple zone method is much easier to setup but requires any changes to a vst chain be duplicated in all zones to be linked.
 The virtual cable method I have developed requires more setup, a single SR chosen for the KS repeaters, but only uses one vst chain and thus lower CPU.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> The point of observation with regard to the *almost imperceptible* hum/hiss difference is that currently it is currently the only difference I perceive between the two paths. A larger difference may occur when I have time to sit quiet and audition both paths using SPDIF instead of AES/EBU.
> 
> Both labs have dedicated service available. In Lynnwood there are several 15 and 20 amp 120V runs. In Redmond they are dedicated 20 amp at both 120 and 208 3 phase. The line conditioners at both places vary but most are of the Furman variety used on pro-audio live sound setups.
> 
> My U12 is unmodified. Modifications don't fly when used in a lab that receives scrutiny from FDA, IEC, CSA, etc. While the mods may be superior, auditors tend to not be as enlightened and prefer to see stock equipment.


 

 Thanks!  Well after having a lot of experience with the Gustard U12 stock and modded - I have to say - you have one heck of U12 there! 
  
 For me the U12 was nice - but veiled in detail, limited at each freq extreme, narrower and shallower in sound stage, less focused and definitely less clarity and transparency then the better USB DDC's I've lived with extensively in both my systems.  
  
 Really no match for the Pro3a, PUC2 Lite, Hydra Z, or certainly the Mutec 3+ USB and Singxer F-1.
  
 As for AOIP - well really no comparison.
  
 But as they say in audio YMMV!


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> It did... I have not had one issue with the new one in almost two straight weeks.  I asked them if anything has changed, but the support person I've been working with wasn't sure. I have to reach out to them today to see how they want to handle it - if I need to send mine in for a change/update of some type or if they're going to swap them out. I have to say again that I have been completely impressed by their level of attention and customer service on this... especially given that I'm outside of their primary market and not their typical customer.
> 
> I don't plan on going back to USB, but it's good to know that the issue is resolved.
> 
> The D16 has been rock-solid for me, not one hiccup in weeks and it stays on/connected 24/7. I use this PC for more than just music, and no matter what I've thrown at it, it just works and sounds amazing... just especially so with music.


 

 Well good to hear they found and fixed that issue.  I remember the three Melodious MX-U8's I had - how they would unlock all the time - mid-song.  Until I added a heat sink to the LDO.  It was pretty frustrating trying to diagnose - wish I had nickle for each Theyscon driver uinstall/install and reboot.
  
 For those new here the F-1 is rock solid stable - at least it has been in my systems.


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!  Well after having a lot of experience with the Gustard U12 stock and modded - I have to say - you have one heck of U12 there!
> 
> For me the U12 was nice - but veiled in detail, limited at each freq extreme, narrower and shallower in sound stage, less focused and definitely less clarity and transparency then the better USB DDC's I've lived with extensively in both my systems.
> 
> ...


 
 Were you using the U12 AES/EBU output in your auditions?
 Specifically U12 AES/EBU to MC-3+?
 I haven't spent the appropriate amount of time comparing U12 AES/EBU, SPDIF, toslink outputs. It is possible those outputs are inferior on the U12 or that more care must be taken for galvanic isolation with the SPDIF output.


----------



## jelt2359

atomicbob said:


> The point of observation with regard to the *almost imperceptible* hum/hiss difference is that currently it is currently the only difference I perceive between the two paths. A larger difference may occur when I have time to sit quiet and audition both paths using SPDIF instead of AES/EBU.




Well reiterated. I have read that the gumby and yggy are close elsewhere as well.


----------



## mhamel

atomicbob said:


> I found the 10% CPU consumption difference. When running multiple zones in JRMC the vst chain I use is duplicated in each zone. When using my virtual cable method, only one vst chain is employed.
> 
> So the JRMC multiple zone method is much easier to setup but requires any changes to a vst chain be duplicated in all zones to be linked.
> The virtual cable method I have developed requires more setup, a single SR chosen for the KS repeaters, but only uses one vst chain and thus lower CPU.


 
  
 Ahh, okay... that makes sense... I should have mentioned that, it lets you have a completely unique chains for each zone if you prefer.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Were you using the U12 AES/EBU output in your auditions?
> Specifically U12 AES/EBU to MC-3+?
> I haven't spent the appropriate amount of time comparing U12 AES/EBU, SPDIF, toslink outputs. It is possible those outputs are inferior on the U12 or that more care must be taken for galvanic isolation with the SPDIF output.


 

 Well yes both SPDIF and AES.  You seem to think AES is some kind of magic bullet to fix SPDIF - aren't they based on the same underlying protocol and both transmit clocking  - the biggest criticism of SPDIF.
  
 Didn't have the MC-3+ back then - but doubt it would help that much to raise it to the level of a PUC2 lite, Hydra Z, or even the Audio Breeze.  None of which I had the MC-3+USB with as well.
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF


> Main differences between AES3 and S/PDIF[5]
> ​AES3 balanced​AES3 unbalanced​S/PDIF​Cabling​110-ohm STP75-ohm coaxial75-ohm coaxial or fibreConnector​3-pin XLRBNCRCA or TOSLINKOutput level​2–7 V peak to peak1.0–1.2 V peak to peak0.5–0.6 V peak to peakMin. input level​0.2 V0.32 V0.2 VMax. distance​100 m1,000 m10 m*Modulation*​*Biphase mark code**Biphase mark code**Biphase mark code*Subcode information​ASCII id. textASCII id. textSCMS copy protection info.Max. resolution​24 bits24 bits20 bits (24 bits optional)
> 
> Protocol specifications[edit] S/PDIF is used to transmit digital signals of a number of formats, the most common being the 48 kHz sample rate format (used in DAT) and the 44.1 kHz format, used in CD audio. In order to support both systems, as well as others that might be needed, the format has no defined data rate. *Instead, the data is sent using biphase mark code, which has either one or two transitions for every bit, allowing the original word clock to be extracted from the signal itself.*
> ...


 


> Limitations[edit] *The receiver does not control the data rate, so it must avoid bit slip by synchronising its reception with the source clock. Many S/PDIF implementations cannot fully decouple the final signal from influence of the source or the interconnect. Specifically the process of clock recovery used to synchronize reception may produce jitter.*[6][7][8] If the DAC does not have a stable clock reference then noise will be introduced into the resulting analogue signal. However, receivers can implement various strategies that limit this influence.[8][9]
> 
> TOSLINK cables, unlike coaxial cables, are immune to ground loops and RF interference.[10] TOSLINK cables may suffer permanent damage if tightly bent.
> 
> S/PDIF is unidirectional, so it lacks flow control and retransmission facilities. This limits its utility in data communications.


----------



## rb2013

jelt2359 said:


> Well reiterated. I have read that the gumby and yggy are close elsewhere as well.


 

 Why pay more for the Yggy then?


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> Why pay more for the Yggy then?


 
  
 I think it comes down to preference. From what I understand, the Gumby MB has a slightly warmer, more euphonic sound with ever-so-slightly less detail, where the Yggy is extremely neutral and has that extra bit of detail. I think Jason from Schiit has mentioned a few times that he uses the Gumby MB in his own system.


----------



## rb2013

BTW did not have the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB isolator back with the Gustard U12 - but I have a Breeze Audio DU-U8 (modded with WT NexGen Cu RCA SPDIF coax).  This provides GI and really helps USB SQ in my experience.  Have not had a Intona - but many like it as well.
  
 And with this galvanic isolation - it does not beat the F-1.  Of course my F-1 set-up has about $500 worth of LPS/Recovery feeding it.  So there is that.
  
 On a head to head Breeze Audio vs F-1 I still like the F-1 better.
  
 And I have my Breeze for sale - so I'm hurting myself in this honest post. (but for $125 with power supply included and it does AES and SPDIF optical - a great deal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> I think it comes down to preference. From what I understand, the Gumby MB has a slightly warmer, more euphonic sound with ever-so-slightly less detail, where the Yggy is extremely neutral and has that extra bit of detail. I think Jason from Schiit has mentioned a few times that he uses the Gumby MB in his own system.


 

 Well then the Gumby MB is killer great deal then.  Thanks for the perspective there.
  
 Funny how a few folks have preferred the F-1 into the Yggy SPDIF over the built in GEN3 USB (that is then a i2s feed to the DAC - I believe).


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Well yes both SPDIF and AES.  You seem to think AES is some kind of magic bullet to fix SPDIF - aren't they based on the same underlying protocol and both transmit clocking  - the biggest criticism of SPDIF.
> 
> Didn't have the MC-3+ back then - but doubt it would help that much to raise it to the level of a PUC2 lite, Hydra Z, or even the Audio Breeze.  None of which I had the MC-3+USB with as well.


 
@rb2013 - I am very aware of the similarities AND differences between AES/EBU and SPDIF. It is my business to know given I use both protocols in both of my acoustic labs. The major point you seem to be overlooking is that SPDIF does NOT provide galvanic isolation while AES/EBU does. With all the the discussion in this and other threads about the need to isolate USB noise from the destination receiver this may be an important point. One of the points highlighted in this thread is the galvanic isolation provided by ethernet interfaces. So you can imagine that I am somewhat interested in the AES/EBU interface as a means of providing galvanic isolation between USB and destination receiver. This is a physical layer implementation difference and may affect the integrity of the data stream, thus making possibly more of a difference than one might think.
  
 from the Rane note cited earlier: http://www.rane.com/note149.html
Initials, Acronyms & Standards The professional digital audio interface known as AES/EBU is initialism for _Audio Engineering Society/European Broadcasting Union_, the two organizations that created the first two-channel digital audio serial interface standard in 1985. Issued as AES3-1985, it was subsequently revised & reissued, with the latest version (as of 2001) being *AES3-1992 (r1997)* _AES Recommended Practice for Digital Audio Engineering _ Serial transmission format for two-channel linearly represented digital audio data._ It was also made an American National Standard, issued as *ANSI S4.40-1992*, and an international standard, issued as *IEC 60958-4*. The importance is that _all _of these documents cover the same serial interface. Ray A. Rayburn adds *"AES3 allows the use of transformer or transformerless interfaces, while the corresponding EBU standard requires the use of transformers. Therefore it has become a common shorthand to say AES/EBU when the interface is transformer coupled, and AES3 when it is not or if the interface type is unknown."*


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Well then the Gumby MB is killer great deal then.  Thanks for the perspective there.
> 
> Funny how a few folks have preferred the F-1 into the Yggy SPDIF over the built in GEN3 USB (that is then a i2s feed to the DAC - I believe).


 
 Agreed, the GuMB is a stonking killer deal!!! I have both sitting right here and there are only a few times that I think I have been able to tell a difference at normal listening levels when fed identical signals over the same interfaces. Now that said, Yggdrasil has AES/EBU and the isolation that goes with it, GuMB does not. The BNC SPDIF connection on the GuMB may be isolated. I should test that.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> @rb2013 - I am very aware of the similarities AND differences between AES/EBU and SPDIF. It is my business to know given I use both protocols in both of my acoustic labs. The major point you seem to be overlooking is that SPDIF does NOT provide galvanic isolation while AES/EBU does. With all the the discussion in this and other threads about the need to isolate USB noise from the destination receiver this may be an important point. One of the points highlighted in this thread is the galvanic isolation provided by ethernet interfaces. So you can imagine that I am somewhat interested in the AES/EBU interface as a means of providing galvanic isolation between USB and destination receiver. This is a physical layer implementation difference and may affect the integrity of the data stream, thus making possibly more of a difference than one might think.
> 
> from the Rane note cited earlier: http://www.rane.com/note149.html
> Initials, Acronyms & Standards The professional digital audio interface known as AES/EBU is initialism for _Audio Engineering Society/European Broadcasting Union_, the two organizations that created the first two-channel digital audio serial interface standard in 1985. Issued as AES3-1985, it was subsequently revised & reissued, with the latest version (as of 2001) being *AES3-1992 (r1997)* _AES Recommended Practice for Digital Audio Engineering _ Serial transmission format for two-channel linearly represented digital audio data._ It was also made an American National Standard, issued as *ANSI S4.40-1992*, and an international standard, issued as *IEC 60958-4*. The importance is that _all _of these documents cover the same serial interface. Ray A. Rayburn adds *"AES3 allows the use of transformer or transformerless interfaces, while the corresponding EBU standard requires the use of transformers. Therefore it has become a common shorthand to say AES/EBU when the interface is transformer coupled, and AES3 when it is not or if the interface type is unknown."*


 

 Thanks for that!  To bad we don't have AES for USB then no need for Intona's and LANRovers!
  
 So this will provide GI on the SPDIF line - but don't most SPDIF devices have a isolation transformer at the transmit and recieve end.  You know those little Murata and Pulse boxes.  Or a more sophisicated design like the F-1:

  
 Using a Mutec SPDIF in AES out - wouldn't that provide GI as well.
  
 How about a Canare SPDIF to AES transformer adapter:
 http://www.prostudioconnection.com/Canare-BCJ-XJ-TRB-Digital-Audio-Format-Converter-B-p/231699593375.htm
  
 I like that Rane link - I have used it many times before on the old U12 thread.  Was very helpful with the PUC2 Lite as it's only AES.
  
 It does seem the GI for USB is more important, SQ wise, then for SPDIF/AES
  
 BTW Have you tried the Intona?  Do you use one on USB?  How about GB LAN Isoaudio USB?


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Agreed, the GuMB is a stonking killer deal!!! I have both sitting right here and there are only a few times that I think I have been able to tell a difference at normal listening levels when fed identical signals over the same interfaces. Now that said, Yggdrasil has AES/EBU and the isolation that goes with it, GuMB does not. The BNC SPDIF connection on the GuMB may be isolated. I should test that.


 

 Yes I wish all DACs used BNC versus RCA.  That would be good to know.
  
 Do you know of any SPDIF line galvanic isolators that work for better SQ?


----------



## rb2013

PAD to the rescue!
  
 http://www.puristaudiodesign.com/products/dig_iso.php
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/getting_pure/index.html#qrfY8Cc3ALOhM7W8.97
  



> Digital Isolation Adapter
> 
> Purist Audio design is proud to release a solution for impedance control between equipment with electrical isolation of the digital signal.
> The adapter is designed to
> ...


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for that!  To bad we don't have AES for USB then no need for Intona's and LANRovers!
> 
> So this will provide GI on the SPDIF line - but don't most SPDIF devices have a isolation transformer at the transmit and recieve end.  You know those little Murata and Pulse boxes.  Or a more sophisicated design like the F-1:
> 
> ...


 
 USB to AES/EBU was what caught my interest in the Gustard U12. Not very many DDCs include this physical option considering that SPDIF is nearly the same data stream. Isolation costs money.
  
 Many devices with SPDIF skip the isolation. I routinely find galvanic connections between SPDIF connected devices. Isolation costs money.
  
 I don't have an F-1. Do you have a DMM and can you measure if the SPDIF RCA connector really is electrically isolated from the USB signal ground? That would be good to know.
  
 The MC-3+ does provide galvanic isolation between SPDIF and AES/EBU. But unfortunately not between SPDIF and SPDIF. Of course the toslinks are all isolated by definition.
  
 The Canare balun is probably from one of the circuits shown in the Rane note. Rane is both a useful source of such information and a mfg of great products for installed sound. I've met many of the folks from Rane. Steve Macatee has made some excellent presentations to our PNW AES section.
  
 Don't have an Intona or the other devices you mention. Why I watch these forums on these devices so I can skip the stuff that doesn't appear to be of as much use or difference in both my pro-audio and recreational audio modes. Makes the money go farther if I don't duplicate everything.


----------



## mhamel

rb2013 said:


> PAD to the rescue!
> 
> http://www.puristaudiodesign.com/products/dig_iso.php
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/getting_pure/index.html#qrfY8Cc3ALOhM7W8.97


 
  
  
 Ouch... $300 is pricey.  http://www.epanorama.net/newepa/2009/10/02/digital-audio-isolation/


----------



## Albrecht

> Digital Isolation Adapter


 
  
  
 Awesome...
  
 Thanks much!! This is the best thread ever....
  
 AFA the Yiggy: i went to a shoot out with 10 DACs and the Yiggy did very well, against some DACs double, & almost triple its price. Which is saying a lot. A few, like the Playback Designs were much better IMO. I don't think that it's crazy to put $2.5K worth of source/digital file transports in front of it, given how noisy computers are. (AND, especially, if you're going to be utilizing distributive file playback).
 However, (again, my dumb opinion), one would be running up against some limitations pretty quickly if the goal is SOTA sound. In other words, I wouldn't expect a Focusrite/Mutec combo to take a Yiggy up to a Meitner/APL/MSB level....
  
 Cheers,


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Why pay more for the Yggy then?


 
 Using the balanced outputs the Yggdrasil offers a lower noise floor and greater dynamic range. The converter ICs have 1 or 2 more effective bits of resolution. In practice, at the levels to which I listen, using unbalanced (ZD is unbalanced, so is my Liquid Crimson) I don't find I hear much difference. But when one wants to assure the lowest noise floor, greatest resolution, etc. the Yggdrasil measures indisputably better.


----------



## FredA

soundsgoodtome said:


> Just to report, the Schiit Wyrd and Singxer F1 is an impressive combination. This for the price is excellent. I think this is as good if not better than the mutec 3+ usb by itself as a transport..
> 
> (Furman conditioner in front of all devices)




I intend to use that combination plus an intona upstream. Nice to hear this. I will try it myself in 3-4 weeks.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Awesome...
> 
> Thanks much!! This is the best thread ever....
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!  I would love to see the APL NWO 3.0 thrown into that mix!
  
 It really is an exceptional design - 10 32-bit AKM DACs per channel - summed to reduce distortion and increase S/N, No caps or opamps in sight.  True ECC99 class A output using totl Lundahl transformers for coupling.  Linear power supply, super clock, discrete SPDIF reciever board, etc...
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> USB to AES/EBU was what caught my interest in the Gustard U12. Not very many DDCs include this physical option considering that SPDIF is nearly the same data stream. Isolation costs money.
> 
> Many devices with SPDIF skip the isolation. I routinely find galvanic connections between SPDIF connected devices. Isolation costs money.
> 
> ...


 

 You should really check out the Breeze Audio DU-U8.  Versus the Gustard just a way better design - Talema transformer, dual stage LDO, high SPRR, low noise regulation, much better caps - Pannie Master XPO vs those mediocre Philips BC's, Murata DA101c trans  vs those Chinese Pulse and the biggie - no need for +5VDC on the USB  for the relay to kickin - the Breeze works fine with just a data leg on a split USB cable.  Also no driver sign issues - works with almost any Thesycon XMOS driver.
  
 Gustard U12:
  

  
 Breeze DU-U8

  

  


  
 Got one for sale with WBT NexGen SPDIF RCA - and Mundorf solid silver/teflon wiring.
  
 Does AES, SPDIF (coax and optical) i2s, etc...
  
 PS Yes I have DMM but my F-1 is buried behind my desk - as I shoe horned my uber USB chain into my office (three separate LPS's! alone).  So it's pretty hard to get to.  If I have time will try and get back there to fetch it for testing.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> Using the balanced outputs the Yggdrasil offers a lower noise floor and greater dynamic range. The converter ICs have 1 or 2 more effective bits of resolution. In practice, at the levels to which I listen, using unbalanced (ZD is unbalanced, so is my Liquid Crimson) I don't find I hear much difference. But when one wants to assure the lowest noise floor, greatest resolution, etc. the Yggdrasil measures indisputably better.


 

 Nice HP amps BTW


----------



## johnjen

So as I posted in the cookbook thread, my RN3 arrived yesterday and I set about setting it all up.
 But it has a hitch in the git along.
  
 During the firmware upgrade (which it performs twice) RedNet control (the 2nd firmware upgrade) hangs trying to complete this task.
  
 So far Focusrite has sent an alternative firmware file which also fails to load.
  
 And the adventure continues…
  
 And for a bit of background…
 <soapbox ON>
 And for those who may not be aware, Bob (Atomic Bob) has a professional as well as a 'hobbyist' interest in all of this.
 He is methodical and meticulous and doesn't just 'slap together' a test setup (unlike many, myself included).
  
 His investigations and experiments are repeatable and precise.
 He is exploring the edges of the envelope, which is why he posted about the _*limits*_ of the noise and hum floor of these different means of digital signal pathways.
  
 Most of us will NEVER find ourselves in a room with  < 30 dBC, 23 dBA noise, unless you live/have access to an acoustics lab (which he does). 
 And I doubt many of us can even claim to have ever experienced such an acoustical environment, let alone understand just what these numbers actually mean.
 So it's quite understandable why some would misinterpret the significance of what he is measuring and reporting in this regard.
  
 <soapbox OFF>
  
 JJ


----------



## jelt2359

For all those who, like me, enjoy Roon, turns out you can just connect the Rednet to the Roon server. Roon won't be streaming anything, it just thinks it's playing locally.


----------



## rb2013

johnjen said:


> So as I posted in the cookbook thread, my RN3 arrived yesterday and I set about setting it all up.
> But it has a hitch in the git along.
> 
> During the firmware upgrade (which it performs twice) RedNet control (the 2nd firmware upgrade) hangs trying to complete this task.
> ...


 

 Thanks for that  - I wonder why you are having firmware upgrade issues.  I know another person who did his without issue.
  
 Mine is still the original that shipped.
  
 Does the unit function now (with the old firmware)?
  
 Thanks for the other info- a very quiet room!  I just mentioned the Zana Deux as a noise source - I have never encountered a tube amp that did not make some hum noise - sometimes from the DC (or worse AC like in the original Lyr) heaters, sometimes mechanical from the transformers.  Sometimes tube rush or noise - then of course there is microphonics.  I have a 25yr very deep experience with tubes and tube gear. 
 So I just found it kinda strange to use an all tube amp to measure ultra low levels of noise on a SS source device that precedes it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 As you said the _*limits of the noise floor*_ for the REDNET device.
  
 As he himself mentioned SE as well, not balanced. 

 The 6C33C-B is a great Russian tube - so well used in the LAMM ML2.1 and ML2.2 amps. 




  
 But it's a thermionic valve - and subject to higher noise levels then the best SS devices.  Not 300B levels for sure - but high enough to possibly produce some of the hum he was hearing.
  
 Just trying to help.
  
 BTW here is Romy the Cat on the 6C33C tube:  http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=6140
  
 Cheers!


----------



## gldgate

On the D16 I ordered I also needed a firmware update. No problems - it downloaded automatically without issue. Kind of surprised I needed one because my order was initially back-ordered so I thought it came from the factory. They may have just gotten it from another distributor.


----------



## rb2013

gldgate said:


> On the D16 I ordered I also needed a firmware update. No problems - it downloaded automatically without issue. Kind of surprised I needed one because my order was initially back-ordered so I thought it came from the factory. They may have just gotten it from another distributor.


 

 So your good - I'll have to see the change file on that.  Will maybe do mine this weekend.
  
 Looking forward to the updated REDNET Contoller due in Aug - it will have SR follow active from what I heard.
  
 I guess that was the update that hanged?


----------



## gldgate

rb2013 said:


> So your good - I'll have to see the change file on that.  Will maybe do mine this weekend.
> 
> Looking forward to the updated REDNET Contoller due in Aug - it will have SR follow active from what I heard.
> 
> I guess that was the update that hanged? ​


 
 Yes, that is the only major sw inconvenience I can see. The Dante Controller GUI could probably be spruced up a bit but I have to remind myself these products are not meant for 2 channel audio. If they develop a box for home audio I'm sure tweaks will be made for the target audience.


----------



## johnjen

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for that  - I wonder why you are having firmware upgrade issues.  I know another person who did his without issue.
> 
> Mine is still the original that shipped.
> 
> ...


 
 Well the 2nd firmware update still hasn't installed yet…
 BUT…
 I think its working now.
 I'm not sure if it was due to me futzing with the RedNet control or Danté control or me just getting the configuration setup properly…
 But it appears to be responding to commands from the s/w controllers.
 My problem is I don't have a SPDIF cable to know for sure.
  
 I was hoping to use the toslink cable but the digital formats are different between the RN3 and my PWD dac so that option is dead in the water.
 So while it looks like things are working, the proof is in the listening.
  
 Now I just gotta find one to use until I get one ordered.
  
  
 Searching, Searching…
  
 JJ


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

soundsgoodtome said:


> Hey guys, good news bad news but first I want to acknowledge @atomicbob
> and his experiment, I read what you did and have some questions. I may want to try replicating your ASIO bridge setup to try it myself with a Breeze Du-u8 and the R3 for a simultaneous control over two output devices. I want to say that while the U12 is a fantastic device I believe that the R3 is a step up so I want to see where things may have changed.. read: does the ASIO bridge/virtual soundcard setup make sq difference void because of how it processes the audio and possibly added (for the lack of words) goobleygook to the audio signal?
> 
> 
> So the good news bad news, from my phone call to Focusrite and having a chat with their Rednet specialist: The good news is the Rednet 3 is capable of outputting to multiple DACs and I've confirmed this to be possible but only via AES/EBU breakout cable (Tascam format not Yamaha). *The output signal on the optical is not your standard spdif optical* but adat optical widely used in pro sound. Unfortunately our DACs are incompatible with only 2ch optical spdif. ADAT is capable of carrying multiple channel signals over optical where as spdif is your standard 2ch; in short the Rednet 3 can't output to our DACs via optical without some kind of conversion from ADAT to SPDIF -- which I'm not sure exists. I'm sure it does but having it in the chain will probably defeat the purpose. So unless you're using a DAC that takes ADAT via optical input, the R3 can not send a signal to your DAC.


 
I'm getting these threads all mixed up and responding in the wrong places lol ^^ from yesterday day in the aoip/aes67 thread

atomicbob
I'd like to know how you got two audio devices to be used simultaneously with asio so I can replicate your ddc a/b rig for some abx comparison. Perhaps at the minimeet if it's not too long of a procedure and you're able to attend. Just a thought, is it possible that this procedure for sending the two signals to two transports on asio nullifies the differences we're hearing in sound quality?


----------



## mourip

soundsgoodtome said:


> I'm getting these threads all mixed up and responding in the wrong places lol ^^ from yesterday day in the aoip/aes67 thread


 
  
 Ditto. I propose that we start keeping this thread just for the F1 and associated USB tweaks and use the other thread for our AOIP joy!


----------



## PCWar

+1


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

To be fair it's still USB related, just comparison to rednet.


----------



## rb2013

gldgate said:


> Yes, that is the only major sw inconvenience I can see. The Dante Controller GUI could probably be spruced up a bit but I have to remind myself these products are not meant for 2 channel audio. If they develop a box for home audio I'm sure tweaks will be made for the target audience.


 

 Yeah I agree - it's not to bad - a manual or guide with a simple 1, 2, 3 step set-up would work.  It took me 15 minutes to set-up.
  
 Be sure to try both the 24bit ann 32bit settings in DVS and RN Controller.  I found 24 bit better w/o the Mutec as SPDIF reclocker, 32 bit better with.


----------



## rb2013

johnjen said:


> Well the 2nd firmware update still hasn't installed yet…
> BUT…
> I think its working now.
> I'm not sure if it was due to me futzing with the RedNet control or Danté control or me just getting the configuration setup properly…
> ...


 

 Yes the optical are ADAT not SPDIF.
  
 In a pinch a quality RCA cable will work - but obviously not ideal (exact 75 ohm matching).  Or a trip to Best Buy for one of those el cheapo AR's.
  
 I have had very good success with Audio Sensibilties Silver Statement 1.5M.  Try and get a 1.5M length the best for digital spdif, that length has been shown to min bakc wave reflections that can cause higher jitter.
  
 I lucked out and found this beauty for a steal of a price - one of maybe 5-6 of the finest digital cables ever made.
  
 Purist Audio Design Colossus Rev B 1.5M XLR:


 This will run AES out of the Mutec 3+ USB to RCA SPDIF in on my APL DAC using a Canare AES>SPDIF adapter plus a 10db attenutator.  This will require some work to get to fit in the tight space - but I will get it to fit!
  
 For those interested in building a sota chain here are some of the best digital cables I'm aware of (and some are silly priced - so only for those with Google stock options!)
  
 Purist Audio Design - Dominus
 Kubala Sonsa - Emotion
 Nordost - Odin
 Siltech - Golden Eagle
 Synergistic Research - Galileo
  
 Then for the budget conscious there is Blue Jeans Cable - Belden.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> I'm getting these threads all mixed up and responding in the wrong places lol ^^ from yesterday day in the aoip/aes67 thread
> 
> @atomicbob
> I'd like to know how you got two audio devices to be used simultaneously with asio so I can replicate your ddc a/b rig for some abx comparison. Perhaps at the minimeet if it's not too long of a procedure and you're able to attend. Just a thought, is it possible that this procedure for sending the two signals to two transports on asio nullifies the differences we're hearing in sound quality?


 

 Gustard U12 stock = REDNET 16d in SQ...Hum....


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Ditto. I propose that we start keeping this thread just for the F1 and associated USB tweaks and use the other thread for our AOIP joy!


 

 +1  I've tried - but the AOIP posting continues here solely by some folks...Ugg!
  
  
 BTW since the F-1 is only (other then in DIY fashion) solely SPDIF Coax - I'll continue to share my findings here regarding the different digital cables.


----------



## atomicbob

soundsgoodtome said:


> I'm getting these threads all mixed up and responding in the wrong places lol ^^ from yesterday day in the aoip/aes67 thread
> 
> @atomicbob
> I'd like to know how you got two audio devices to be used simultaneously with asio so I can replicate your ddc a/b rig for some abx comparison. Perhaps at the minimeet if it's not too long of a procedure and you're able to attend. Just a thought, is it possible that this procedure for sending the two signals to two transports on asio nullifies the differences we're hearing in sound quality?


 
 I know what you mean. I can't keep up and I am not really going to try. I will say that I am very much enjoying the flexibility and sound quality that the Rednet D16 provides to my Schiit DACs with intrinsic galvanic isolation.
  
@mhamel pointed me to JRMC zones as the easy method. Pros: very easy to setup   Cons: duplicate DSP chains for each zone which consumes extra CPU
  
 My method uses Virtual Audio Cable: http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.htm
 and VB-Audio ASIO Bridge: http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/index.htm
 Pros: only one DSP chain in JRMC, lower CPU usage   Cons: more complex to setup and run each session, single SR must be set throughout like Dante
  
 It may be possible that the virtual cables that are included with VB-Audio could supplant the VAC, but I've used VAC for quite some time and am familiar with that system and its quirks


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> Gustard U12 stock = REDNET 16d in SQ...Hum....


 
 In my comparison it was (Gustard U12 stock + MC-3+ using AES/EBU) = Rednet D16 using AES/EBU
 Please always qualify that the MC-3+ was in the U12 path for my comparison. I have yet to run the barebones U12 to Rednet D16 comparison. Careful comparisons take time and the all the differences are usually not apparent in short listening sessions.


----------



## atomicbob

rb2013 said:


> +1  I've tried - but the AOIP posting continues here solely by some folks...Ugg!
> 
> 
> BTW since the F-1 is only (other then in DIY fashion) solely SPDIF Coax - I'll continue to share my findings here regarding the different digital cables.


 
 Ok, will drop out of this thread and only post on the other if inclined. This is the thread where I found out about the Rednet devices, which I appreciate.


----------



## rb2013

atomicbob said:


> In my comparison it was (Gustard U12 stock + MC-3+ using AES/EBU) = Rednet D16 using AES/EBU
> Please always qualify that the MC-3+ was in the U12 path for my comparison. I have yet to run the barebones U12 to Rednet D16 comparison. Careful comparisons take time and the all the differences are usually not apparent in short listening sessions.


 

 Sorry - yes you are right.  But the U12 is still the USB source.  Curious why you didn't get the USB version of the Mutec for a little more money?  It has better clocking then the non-USB MC-3+, in addition to being a great USB DDC.


----------



## rb2013

Thanks @Superdad for getting our AOIP thread locked. Take you self severing bs back to CA were all posts microrodeo are worshiped. I hope you get banned from Headfi!

He started a nasty feud with another MOT, who was most helpful until blatantly attacked by Alex, I think on purpose to stop this discussion.
I would boycott any Uptone product from now on!

To Headfi management, why didn't you just block him from the thread? Why leave his nasty posts up, then punish us by locking the thread!

Done with headfi.

Will start new threads on another forum. Or just launch my own blog. Tired of this bs.

To @superdad, sorry dude your usb days are numbered.

See you all elsewhere!


----------



## rb2013

Oh and Gldgate just posted a stellar review of his new REDNET 16 vs the microrendu on CA. It's now part of his system

So Alex you can go attack him now, as you swim upstream in a building current.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Thanks @Superdad for getting our AOIP thread locked.
> ...
> 
> See you all elsewhere!


 
 This is pure SH******T.
  
 Please post where you will be continuing, this has been the most valuable thread of the last decade.


----------



## Lord Raven

I'm sorry to say, I couldn't get information or learn something here so far and you guys are leaving, I just arrived at the party.


----------



## somestranger26

jabbr said:


> This is pure SH******T.
> 
> Please post where you will be continuing, this has been the most valuable thread of the last decade.


 

 Yeah, really. I don't understand why the mods here love to lock up threads instead of taking action against the people stirring up trouble.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> .....
> 
> Will start new threads on another forum. Or just launch my own blog. Tired of this bs.
> 
> ......


 
 Hi Rob
  
 If you want to start afresh on a new forum, may I recommend tirnahifi.org
 This is an Irish, somewhat smaller hifi forum with open-minded people and friendly, easy approachable moderators.
 The forum is also non-commercial, unlike some other fora.
  
 Please let us know where you setup a new base.
  
 cheers


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

rb2013, if we can get focusrite to be an mot I think it'll serve the forum well as well as keep the managerial guys happy. It's a no brainer that Head-fi is on the forefront for an entire market on something revolutionary as Ethernet audio. 

The mot fee is a drop in the bucket for a company like focusrite.


----------



## gldgate

soundsgoodtome said:


> @rb2013, if we can get focusrite to be an mot I think it'll serve the forum well as well as keep the managerial guys happy. It's a no brainer that Head-fi is on the forefront for an entire market on something revolutionary as Ethernet audio.
> 
> The mot fee is a drop in the bucket for a company like focusrite.


 
  
 Great idea. AOIP is a very interesting technology and it would be a real shame if fellow users don't have an outlet where we can discuss our experiences.
  
 Jabbr has a great thread on CA on Optical network configurations that really helped many newbies set up optical systems with SFP's, FMC's, fibre and switches. It was a wonderful resource and I hope a similar thread could exist for Rednet & AOIP over here.


----------



## jabbr

soundsgoodtome said:


> rb2013, if we can get focusrite to be an mot I think it'll serve the forum well as well as keep the managerial guys happy. It's a no brainer that Head-fi is on the forefront for an entire market on something revolutionary as Ethernet audio.
> 
> The mot fee is a drop in the bucket for a company like focusrite.




10 days ago I informed Focusrite about the existence of thse threads on head-fi, so they might already be listening in.

Cheers


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Watching is one thing but being an mot is another. I'm not saying the thread wouldn't have been locked but the focusrite guys could have an official Head-fi standing which may make the threads have more "stick". I'm not associated with hf management but that's just what I think.

If some of you guys with open communications with focusrite have a chance, you guys should mention the idea. Or if they're reading this...there you go.


----------



## Iving

jabbr said:


> 10 days ago I informed Focusrite about the existence of thse threads on head-fi, so they might already be listening in.
> 
> Cheers


 
  
 The UK folks at Focusrite have been similarly advised with contact info for a few enthusiasts here including rb2013. I hope they are tempted to discern the potential in the audiophile market - and can see past the squabbling (they have links to the threads - but who would sit here trawling through the playschool uproar during office hours ...)
  
 We already sent in a "wants" list - aggregating input from various Head-Fi members. My suggestion would be to work towards similar bulleted summaries - technological and otherwise. Somebody, somehere may take notice of informational bulletins. Ructions are bound to be a distraction at best - a disincentive at worst:
  

 1)      Dante/DVS or Ravenna/DVS - WIN, MAC CoreAudio and maybe but doubtful Linux compatible
 2)      dc socket inlet (for folks who want to use their own Linear Power Supply) / combined with excellent clocking
 3)      retain the word clock in (for future upgrade to a better sounding master clock)
 4)      Input Ethernet (Dante) Output: SPDIF coax and AES - SPDIF optical as an option and USB (would be cool) as another
 5)      2 channel output only (max throughput as possible) via SPDIF coax, AES/EBU, Toslink optical
 6)      Sample rates: 44.1K, 48k, 88.2K, 96k, 176.4K, 192K (and higher and DSD if possible but not required)
 7)      automatic sample rate follow (understood to be in the works already)
 8)      "half the price of the RedNet 3" (if possible) aka "under $500"


----------



## Kelowna

It doesn't matter anyways. Because the manufacturers will adopt AOIP once they are presented with a solution that can out do USB in all regards. They dislike USB as much as we all do. Dante is great, but lets face it in today's audiophile DAC landscape, support for resolutions above 24/192 PCM is pretty important. Ravenna has proven to meet this requirement in the Merging products with the NADAC, and will shortly in other audiophile products as well. But whether or not it's popular is besides the point. Whether or not it's _better_ is what matters to the end users. And right now today, if you only need support up to 24/192, the Focusrite products are looking like a very attractive solution, which folks who have tried are saying is_ better._


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I can't knock dsd not having heard one proper.. but tbh I don't know anyone up here using dsd. It seems to be a marketing based format?


----------



## Kelowna

Having extensively experimented with DSD, whether it's better or not all boils down the the DAC used, and the algorithms used at the studio to convert the SDM data from the ADC's to DSD. The main reason people like DSD with some DAC's is it allows bypassing of the SRC/SDM inside of modern SDM DAC chips. However, using software based SRC/SDM engines like Hqplayer, can allow you to reap probably 80% of the benefit from PCM sources as well. But at the end of the day, the total system implementation is what matters most. There's many variables that determine the end result. This is why the DSD vs PCM arguments on forums are useless without taking all of the variables into consideration. I've yet to see this on any forum.


----------



## rb2013

Ok AOIP is back in business!  I just posted a neat tweek that has worked for me.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-the-coming-wave-the-aes67-and-avb-ethernet-protocols-usher-in-a-new-age-of-computer-audio
  
 Cheers!
  
 PS Received a nice PM from Headfi - thanks guys!
  
 So let him (the offender) be never spoken of again!


----------



## kazsud

So a couple months ago i wanted to hear coax in on my pwd mkii and didnt want to spend much. So i bought a used nuforce u192 usb to coax for $40. 

Using it with a jitterbug right away i noticed the absense of glare in the highs and slightly blacker background with my headphones. And i was also able to use my ipad and iphone as a source because it was less power needed.

How much better would the F-1 be with the jitterbug than the nuforce?


----------



## rb2013

kazsud said:


> So a couple months ago i wanted to hear coax in on my pwd mkii and didnt want to spend much. So i bought a used nuforce u192 usb to coax for $40.
> 
> Using it with a jitterbug right away i noticed the absense of glare in the highs and slightly blacker background with my headphones. And i was also able to use my ipad and iphone as a source because it was less power needed.
> 
> How much better would the F-1 be with the jitterbug than the nuforce?


 

 Major stepup - take just the clocking for example.  F-1/SU-1 totl Crystek CCHD-575 dual - one for each audio timing, a separate NDK for USB.  So three clocks total.  Not to mention the XMOS XU208 processor.
  
 Here is the Nuforce board.


 F-1:

  
  
 But the F-1 is SPDIF Coax out - no AES - so you need the Singxer SU-1 (see Tabao)


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> if you only *need *support up to 24/192, the Focusrite products are looking like a very attractive solution, which folks who have tried are saying is_ better._


 
 And who really NEEDS 384k PCM or DSD?  Want yes.  Sold they have to have for great SQ - yes.  Bench testers approval - yes.
  
 SQ matters most - not needed IMHO.


----------



## rb2013

soundsgoodtome said:


> I can't knock dsd not having heard one proper.. but tbh I don't know anyone up here using dsd. It seems to be a marketing based format?


 

 My APL DAC is also has a spinner and can do SACD - I can compare on the fly by remote the exact same recording on SACD/DSD to PCM redbook upsampled by computer feed through DDC chain to DAC SPDIF coax.
  
 I have about 80 SACD/DSD's.
  
 Used to be a few years ago the SACD smoked my PC.
  
 Now it's the opposite and not even close.
  
 So if you want to do DSD right you need quad or octa - that is 256DSD or 512DSD.  How many recording are available - RECORDED at those rates - maybe a 100.  By no name artists...having native (not DoP) DSD is just a Tempest in a Teapot...
  
 It reminds me in the analog realm these 'Direct to LP' albums I had - should I say one.  The artist performs live as the lath cuts the master directly - no tape recorder involved.  Sound really good.  How many DD do you see today?  And major artists?
 Great fro a theoretical point of view - completely non-practical for music lovers.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Having extensively experimented with DSD, whether it's better or not all boils down the the DAC used, and the algorithms used at the studio to convert the SDM data from the ADC's to DSD. The main reason people like DSD with some DAC's is it allows bypassing of the SRC/SDM inside of modern SDM DAC chips. However, using software based SRC/SDM engines like Hqplayer, can allow you to reap probably 80% of the benefit from PCM sources as well. But at the end of the day, the total system implementation is what matters most. There's many variables that determine the end result. This is why the DSD vs PCM arguments on forums are useless without taking all of the variables into consideration. I've yet to see this on any forum.


 

 SDM - being?


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> SDM - being?




Sigma Delta Modulation. Unless you're DAC is the R-2R ladder type, it uses SDM technology internally. What many don't realize about HQplayer is all it is, is a SDM/SRC engine in software. It does the same thing as SDM DAC chips do internally, but on a PC with much greater precision than is possible on a small low powered chip. Many mistake this as DSD upsampling, but what you are actually doing when used with an DSD capable SDM chip is using the DSD input to bypass the onboard SDM/SRC in the chip. Calling it converting to DSD is actually an inaccurate term which Jussi from Signalyst would like to eliminate. To get the very best from this software SRC/SDM, pure 1 bit DAC's or DAC's with SRC/SDM bypass mode should be used.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Sigma Delta Modulation. Unless you're DAC is the R-2R ladder type, it uses SDM technology internally. What many don't realize about HQplayer is all it is, is a SDM/SRC engine in software. It does the same thing as SDM DAC chips do internally, but on a PC with much greater precision than is possible on a small low powered chip. Many mistake this as DSD upsampling, but what you are actually doing when used with an DSD capable SDM chip is using the DSD input to bypass the onboard SDM/SRC in the chip. Calling it converting to DSD is actually an inaccurate term which Jussi from Signalyst would like to eliminate. To get the very best from this software SRC/SDM, pure 1 bit DAC's or DAC's with SRC/SDM bypass mode should be used.


 

 More great info!  Thanks - I'm a big R2R ladder DAC fan.
  
 Does the HQP bypass the on chip opamps as well?
  
 But my APL uses six 32-bit AKM Multi-segment S-D DACs in each channel - summed I believe to lower distortion and improve s/n.
  
  
  
 Good info for newbies on R2R vs S-D Dacs:
 http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
 http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/today-in-electronics-everything-is-made.html


----------



## Yviena

Kinda confused about the wording but as i understand it the spdif on F1 can't do more than 192khz and 128 dsd/dop right?

So basically only i2s supports upsampling to 352/384khz?


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Kinda confused about the wording but as i understand it the spdif on F1 can't do more than 192khz and 128 dsd/dop right?
> 
> So basically only i2s supports upsampling to 352/384khz?


 

 Yes you are correct on the SPDIF PCM - pretty sure on the DoP.
  
 The SU-1 has a terrific i2s scheme with DIP switches to adjust to the various pinouts.


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> More great info!  Thanks - I'm a big R2R ladder DAC fan.
> 
> Does the HQP bypass the on chip opamps as well?
> 
> ...




Yeah R-2R's can sound good. However those links you shared are quite outdated. The latest crop of SDM chips (AKM AK4497 and ESS Sabre pro series) renders the drawbacks of early SDM technology null and void. The last R-2R chip, the PCM 1704 came out in 1998. I think we have finally caught up, and surpassed with SDM. And when off chip SDM/SRC ran on FPGA's, DSP chips, or software based is used, the potential far exceeds what's possible on a low cost ASIC. 

Regarding on chip opamps, all chips have some sort of gain stage internally. If they didn't, the chips wouldn't have enough juice to drive the IV stage of the DAC. The end result of the implementation is far more important than the terminology in this regard. 

But like with all audio gear, first hand experience with all of the lastest implementations is essential to form an opinion that holds weight. There's many ways to skin a cat to achieve phenomenal results.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Yeah R-2R's can sound good. However those links you shared are quite outdated. The latest crop of SDM chips (AKM AK4497 and ESS Sabre pro series) renders the drawbacks of early SDM technology null and void. The last R-2R chip, the PCM 1704 came out in 1998. I think we have finally caught up, and surpassed with SDM. And when off chip SDM/SRC ran on FPGA's, DSP chips, or software based is used, the potential far exceeds what's possible on a low cost ASIC.
> 
> Regarding on chip opamps, all chips have some sort of gain stage internally. If they didn't, the chips wouldn't have enough juice to drive the IV stage of the DAC. The end result of the implementation is far more important than the terminology in this regard.
> 
> But like with all audio gear, first hand experience with all of the lastest implementations is essential to form an opinion that holds weight. There's many ways to skin a cat to achieve phenomenal results.


 

 Got to love 1998!  The PCM1704 now used in the Darko's (and Srajan's?) #1 DAC the sublime Aqua HiFi La Scalla MK2 - drool worthiness at it's peak.  Reminds me I gotta buy some more lottery tickets today!
  
 Well those links are somewhat dated but the underlying issues remain SDM extreme noise shaping creating phase and time decoherence - mult-segment better - but on chip opamps - ugg!
  
 I do agree with you on well done FPGA vs ASIC - see the Chord DAVE and MSB Diamond - both multi-bit not SDM, but done in a FPGA.
  
 And of course Schiit recent conversion to MB - ASIC AD5791 -but sweet filters!


> *21 Bits, No Guessing: Mission-Critical D/A Technology*
> When doctors are trying to diagnose whether you have gas or cancer from MRI results, or when the military is trying to ensure a missile hits an ammo dump and not a nunnery next door, they don’t use “24 bit” or “32 bit” delta-sigma D/A converters. Instead, they rely on precision, multibit ladder DACs, like the Analog Devices AD5791. This allows them the bit-perfect precision they need for critical applications, rather than the guesswork of a delta-sigma. We chose this same critical technology for Yggdrasil. Following these unique D/A converters are sophisticated discrete JFET buffers and summers.


 


> *Oversimplified, however essentially correct: The filter is also time domain optimized which means the phase info in the original samples are averaged in the time domain with the filter generated interpolated samples to for corrected minimum phase shift as a function of frequency from DC to the percentage of nyquist - in our case .968. Time domain is well defined at DC - the playback device behaves as a window fan at DC - it either blows (in phase) or sucks (out). It is our time domain optimization that gives the uncanny sonic hologram. (It also allows the filter to disappear. Has to be heard to understand.) Since lower frequency wavelengths are measured in tens of feet, placement in image gets increasingly wrong as a function of decreasing frequency in non time domain optimized recordings - these keep the listener's ability to hear the venue - not to mention the sum of all of the phase errors in the microphones, mixing boards, eq, etc on the record side. An absolute phase switch is of little to no value in a non time domain optimized, stochastic time domain replay system. It makes a huge difference with an Yggy.*
> 
> *5. This is combined with a frequency domain optimization which does not otherwise affect the phase optimization. The 0.968 of Nyquist also gives us a small advantage that none of the off-the shelf FIR filters (0.907) provide: frequency response out to 21.344KHz, 42.688KHz, 85.3776KHz, and 170.5772KHz bandwidth for native 1,2,4, and 8x 44.1KHz SR multiple recordings - the 48KHz table is 23.232, 46.464, 92.868, and 185.856KHz respectively for 1,2,4, and 8x. This was the portion of the filter that had the divide by zero problem which John Lediaev worked out, to combine with #4 above AND retain the original samples.*


 

 Then there is the hard way!
 TotalDAC discrete R2R ladder - 100+ Vishay .01% PG Foils - Yummy

  
  
  
 So here is the latest tech - updated 4/2016:
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/


> _Premier League _​
> Aqua Hifi La Scala MKII
> _Division 1_​
> Chord Hugo TT
> ...


 
  
 So it looks like with work on the filtering the 1998 PCM1704UK is still top of the heap (as least for some). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html
  
 So it seems some of the best designers have or are moving away from SDM to MB.
  
 Never ever cared for the Sabre sound.


----------



## rb2013

Now one of best in SDM utilization Alex Peychev from APL: but he uses AKM
  
 Here totally PCM>DSD resampling using stacked SDM's:
 http://www.aplhifi.com/products/dsd-m
  


> Proprietary asynchronous USB input module accepting DSD64 and DSD128 only.
> Proprietary PCM to DSD converter module with DSD64, DSD128 and DSD256 capabilities, user selectable.
> Proprietary Pure DSD Digital to Analog conversion module. No off-the-shelf devices.
> S/PDIF digital input module accepting up to 200kHz/24bit PCM, further converted to DSD.


----------



## murphythecat

whats very exciting is the new trend from the likes of T+A DAC8 DSD
  
  
 quote from ric schultz.
  
 "
Yes, its too bad Nadac cannot take 512. However, the $870 Gustard X20 can via I2S. And it has two ESS DACs so will have more resolution there than Nadac. And the modified Gustard will have a more transparent output stage than Nadac (probably uses op amps). Will be interesting to see if modded Gustard via I2S is as good or better than T+A playing 512. What is for sure is there is a revolution going on here. We have a $4000 DAC and maybe a less than $2000 DAC playing DSD 512 upsampled pcm that sounds like super analog? Maybe pure pcm DACs (R2R, etc.) are now obsolete?!?.....and now we have orgasmic digital sound for pennies of what was just the reference only days ago.....WOW! I am excited.
  
 http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20405-T-A-1-bit-converters-in-the-PDP-3000HV-and-DAC-8-DSD
  
  
 heres a big discussion about it at computeraudiphile http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/t-digital-analogue-converter-8-direct-stream-digital-27935/
  
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G29DXfcdhBg


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> whats very exciting is the new trend from the likes of T+A DAC8  that may make even R2R obsolete.
> 
> 
> quote from ric schultz.
> ...


 

 Yes like Alex P going to DSD  but I believe unlike AP keeps PCM native.
  
 I love tube DACs so not my cup of tea.  I'd put this up against any of those sub$2000 DSD DACs running good old upsampled Redbook (which is like 99% of my music).
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 Did mine for around $1400


----------



## murphythecat

rb2013 said:


> Yes like Alex P going to DSD  but I believe unlike AP keeps PCM native.
> 
> I love tube DACs so not my cup of tea.  I'd put this up against any of those sub$2000 DSD DACs running good old upsampled Redbook (which is like 99% of my music).
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
> ...


 
 jury is still out but its very promising. I just got my R2R mosaic T dac and now it may be obsolete? lol
  
 but I have a feeling that this T + A dac8 DSD may be the future.


----------



## Clemmaster

Has anyone tried to use a Rednet 3 or 16 as a S/PDIF re-clocker?


----------



## Kelowna

There's no such thing as obsolete with audio gear. It will still sound the same after newer gear is released 

The great thing about the T+A is it allows complete bypassing of onboard SDM/SRC for PCM. This way you aren't limited to the resource constrained SDM/SRC onboard ASIC chips, or FPGA's for that matter.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

clemmaster said:


> Has anyone tried to use a Rednet 3 or 16 as a S/PDIF re-clocker?


 
 I don't think anyone has as the main attraction for the Rednet are their ethernet hookup/virtual soundcard. You can get the Mutec MC3+ USB for around the same price that will probably do better reclocking..


----------



## Yviena

Any clue when the new 9038 chip is actually gonna be released?


----------



## mhamel

kelowna said:


> Yeah R-2R's can sound good. However those links you shared are quite outdated. The latest crop of SDM chips (AKM AK4497 and ESS Sabre pro series) renders the drawbacks of early SDM technology null and void. The last R-2R chip, the PCM 1704 came out in 1998. I think we have finally caught up, and surpassed with SDM. And when off chip SDM/SRC ran on FPGA's, DSP chips, or software based is used, the potential far exceeds what's possible on a low cost ASIC.
> 
> Regarding on chip opamps, all chips have some sort of gain stage internally. If they didn't, the chips wouldn't have enough juice to drive the IV stage of the DAC. The end result of the implementation is far more important than the terminology in this regard.
> 
> But like with all audio gear, first hand experience with all of the lastest implementations is essential to form an opinion that holds weight. There's many ways to skin a cat to achieve phenomenal results.


 
  
 SDM or R2R, it's as much about implementation and the analog side of things, too.
  
 As much as I liked the Yggy, to my ears this Convert-2 I'm using now just sounds better, and it's not using the latest and greatest chip by any stretch. The implementation of that and the analog section are just outstanding, however. It's unfortunate that this box doesn't get more traction on the consumer/audiophile side.


----------



## Sanlitun

kazsud said:


> So a couple months ago i wanted to hear coax in on my pwd mkii and didnt want to spend much. So i bought a used nuforce u192 usb to coax for $40.
> 
> Using it with a jitterbug right away i noticed the absense of glare in the highs and slightly blacker background with my headphones. And i was also able to use my ipad and iphone as a source because it was less power needed.
> 
> How much better would the F-1 be with the jitterbug than the nuforce?


 
  
  
 Considering your DAC is good enough to define the differences you will probably see an improvement. The F-1 has all of the latest state of the art ideas for USB conversion and isolation built in. For the price its close to a miracle.
  
 If I am not mistaken the Nuforce is actually a pre-Xmos style device.


----------



## Sanlitun

rb2013 said:


> Used to be a few years ago the SACD smoked my PC.
> 
> Now it's the opposite and not even close.


 
  
 My experience is much the same. I still have a Sony SACD SCD-XA777ES and all of the disks I bought with it. Back then it was one of the two available hi-res formats and the only one really available to me. All of the content available was PCM converted to DSD and in general it sounded soft and weird. 
  
  
 The chain I am using today is so much superior that it is something I wouldn't have believed possible back then. It's an amazing thing to think just how much more enjoyment is hidden in 44.1 PCM.


----------



## Kelowna

yviena said:


> Any clue when the new 9038 chip is actually gonna be released?





It already has been. There's even been impressions right here on this forum of the Ayre QX-5. The first DAC released with the 9038 pro. Charles Hansen is good friends with Dustin. So they got first dibs. 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/811706/ayre-qx-5-twenty-digital-hub-dac-headphone-amp-first-listen

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/ayre-acoustics-show-off-qx-5-twenty-digital-hub/

Wait for RMAF and we will be seeing a sea of new SDM DAC's with the ESS 9038 pro and AKM 4497. Exciting year for digital!! 

My guess is Mr Darko is going to have a new reference


----------



## Albrecht

> Yes like Alex P going to DSD  but I believe unlike AP keeps PCM native.
> I love tube DACs so not my cup of tea.  I'd put this up against any of those sub$2000 DSD DACs running good old upsampled Redbook (which is like 99% of my music).


 
  
 Hear you, - although I can't fathom how Alex may make another magic DAC without a tube, - I desperately want to hear the DSD-M.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Yes lots of ways to achieve great sound. The "Sabre sound" that many refer to is actually the sound of the chip when improperly implemented. However we are talking 10 year old SDM technology compared to the latest pro series. There's not just an incremental update here. Dustin Forman the lead engineer behind the Sabre chips lives down the road from me. We have had several in depth discussions on this topic and the latest 9038 pro series absolutely slaughters the 9018. Dustin designed the 9018 back in his early 20's when the Sabre division was very small. Since then they have expanded 10 fold, acquired 100 patents, along with all of Wolfsons IP along with their former CTO. Just wait until DAC's start rolling out with the 9038 and the R2R resurgence is going to grind to a halt.
> 
> As far as the Chord Dave. They might not use the same terminology, but what they are doing is noise shaping and oversampling on FPGA. This is the same thing a SDM DAC does, only programmed on FPGA. However the FPGA they use does have more power than a typical ASIC DAC chip, it still lacks in resources compared to a SHARC DSP, and especially Intel Quad core processor. The Mola Mola Makua DAC is another example of SDM, only done on SHARC chips and 1 bit discrete DACs.
> 
> My thoughts on R-2R is MSB has taken it to the max with the select DAC. So SDM is the only way we can push the envelope further.


 

 Great to know - Will look forward to the 9038 rollouts - but my love will always be with R2R 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 On the DAVE how do they get 384K on SPDIF Coax and 768K on dual?


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> Great to know - Will look forward to the 9038 rollouts - but my love will always be with R2R
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Never say always with audio. Your heart will always be what gives you the most emotional experience. What I was told about the 9038 was, even the cheap development board powered by a cheap SMPS puts the finest 9018 DAC's to shame.
  
 384 is possible out of coaxial SPDIF. It's equal to DSD 64 over DoP which some do. DoP 128 is possible on dual wire. The Audiophilleo can do it:
  
 http://www.audiophilleo.com/Audiophilleo1


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> jury is still out but its very promising. I just got my R2R mosaic T dac and now it may be obsolete? lol
> 
> but I have a feeling that this T + A dac8 DSD may be the future.


 

 For those not so DIY inclined Monarchy makes a nice rebuild of the Lite DAC:
  
 Got rave reviews from Absolute Sound reviewer Dick Olsher:
  
 These older R2R DAC's may not be the last word in detail - but more then make up for it in liquidity, warmth and musicality.  Very analog like - very AOIP like -even from not great USB.  So forgiving.  The true tube versions allow a significant SQ upgrade path with NOS tubes.
  
 Monarchy NM24 DAC $1590 - the 24 bit PCM1704 is getting harder and harder to find esp the totl 'UK' version.:
 http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/monarchy-audio-nm24-dac-preamplifier/
  
 Look at the NOS 16bit R2R TDA1541a double crown - what they sell for these days - just the DAC chips!
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Philips-TDA1541A-S1-Crown-DAC-IC-Dual-16-bit-DAC-TDA1541-/121439050137?hash=item1c4654d999:g:NxIAAOSwBLlVBwII
  

 This Marantz CD7 is going for $6000 -http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marantz-CD7-Legendary-Rare-CD-Player-Original-Near-Mint-TDA1541A-S2-Double-Crown-/282065902896?has
  
 There is a reason the prices are skyrocketing on these - and are highly prized.


----------



## rb2013

mhamel said:


> SDM or R2R, it's as much about implementation and the analog side of things, too.
> 
> As much as I liked the Yggy, to my ears this Convert-2 I'm using now just sounds better, and it's not using the latest and greatest chip by any stretch. The implementation of that and the analog section are just outstanding, however. It's unfortunate that this box doesn't get more traction on the consumer/audiophile side.


 

 +1 Yes My APL DAC excels - but it's really special - 6 DACs per channel, 32-bit AKM multi-seg SDM, Lunduhl transformer coupling, class A ECC99 tube output (not a opamp in sight), super clock, WBT Nexgen Ag connectors, separate digital and analog LPS, etc...
  
 What DAC chip in the Covert 2 - ESS?


----------



## rb2013

sanlitun said:


> My experience is much the same. I still have a Sony SACD SCD-XA777ES and all of the disks I bought with it. Back then it was one of the two available hi-res formats and the only one really available to me. All of the content available was PCM converted to DSD and in general it sounded soft and weird.
> 
> 
> The chain I am using today is so much superior that it is something I wouldn't have believed possible back then. It's an amazing thing to think just how much more enjoyment is hidden in 44.1 PCM.


 

 Cheers to that! Wait until you hear AOIP - man run for your financial life!


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> It already has been. There's even been impressions right here on this forum of the Ayre QX-5. The first DAC released with the 9038 pro. Charles Hansen is good friends with Dustin. So they got first dibs.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/811706/ayre-qx-5-twenty-digital-hub-dac-headphone-amp-first-listen
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hear you, - although I can't fathom how Alex may make another magic DAC without a tube, - I desperately want to hear the DSD-M.


 

 His hey day was the NWO 3.0-GO - I don't think the new line is selling well, judging by the lack of reviews and posts on his blogsite.
  
 It used to take weeks for a return email.  I got one in an hour recently inquiring on how to rewire the tube socket for a different tube.
  
 If anyone finds one of these in an estate sale grab it!
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html


----------



## Albrecht

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/apl/1.html
  
 Here's the review of the DSD-S
  
  


> His hey day was the NWO 3.0-GO


 
  
 I loved that one: awesome....
  
 I've heard a ton of his stuff beyond mine, - except the newest DSD-s, and DSD-M, - so I would love to compare. I wasn't blown away be the Directstream DAC, so would really love to hear Alex's take.


----------



## Yviena

kelowna said:


> It already has been. There's even been impressions right here on this forum of the Ayre QX-5. The first DAC released with the 9038 pro. Charles Hansen is good friends with Dustin. So they got first dibs.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/811706/ayre-qx-5-twenty-digital-hub-dac-headphone-amp-first-listen
> 
> ...




Nice! I bet that 9038 with es9311 will usher in many new top reference dacs. Tho it will probably hurt the resale value of last years top end dacs but thats technology and progress for ya, 6 months later something newer and better always comes out.


----------



## Kelowna

yviena said:


> Nice! I bet that 9038 with es9311 will usher in many new top reference dacs. Tho it will probably hurt the resale value of last years top end dacs but thats technology and progress for ya, 6 months later something newer and better always comes out.


 
 Yes used together with the companion LDO will take things to levels never heard before. It also makes for less complicated DAC designs while achieving superior performance.
  
 That's why they came out with the 9028. It's a drop in replacement for the 9018. No other mods necessary to the DAC. Just solder a 9028 on the board instead of the 9018 and you have a new DAC. The 9038 needs a new ground up design. So it will be a dead giveaway to tell who cheaped out on their new models when they start rolling out in the masses


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Yes used together with the companion LDO will take things to levels never heard before. It also makes for less complicated DAC designs while achieving superior performance.
> 
> That's why they came out with the 9028. It's a drop in replacement for the 9018. No other mods necessary to the DAC. Just solder a 9028 on the board instead of the 9018 and you have a new DAC. The 9038 needs a new ground up design. So it will be a dead giveaway to tell who cheaped out on their new models when they start rolling out in the masses


I love this hobby! Much to look forward to


----------



## Yviena

kelowna said:


> Yes used together with the companion LDO will take things to levels never heard before. It also makes for less complicated DAC designs while achieving superior performance.
> 
> That's why they came out with the 9028. It's a drop in replacement for the 9018. No other mods necessary to the DAC. Just solder a 9028 on the board instead of the 9018 and you have a new DAC. The 9038 needs a new ground up design. So it will be a dead giveaway to tell who cheaped out on their new models when they start rolling out in the masses


 
 Looking at it the only difference between 9038 and 9028 seems to be less SNR and -2 THD right?


----------



## Kelowna

Achieving an additional 11dB of dynamic range isn't a trivial matter. It takes almost 4 9028's (or 32 channels) in parallel to achieve this. There's quite a bit more going on than the simple block diagram shows. There's no substitute for listening.


----------



## Albrecht

rb2013 said:


> PAD to the rescue!
> 
> http://www.puristaudiodesign.com/products/dig_iso.php
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/getting_pure/index.html#qrfY8Cc3ALOhM7W8.97


 

 Hi,
 Been looking around for one of these fellows, not available to purchase yet as far as I can see. I'll try writing Purist and see if I can get one.
  
 Thanks again for posting about this...


----------



## CFGamescape

I have a stock, unmodified Gustard U12 for sale. Let me know if any of you guys are interested. Price is negotiable!
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/812010/gustard-u12-usb-digital-audio-interface


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> Been looking around for one of these fellows, not available to purchase yet as far as I can see. I'll try writing Purist and see if I can get one.
> 
> Thanks again for posting about this...


 

 It's a curious device - would be interested to hear what you think.


----------



## Albrecht

> It's a curious device - would be interested to hear what you think.


 
  
 Thanks...
  
 Looks like it's not going to happen. At $550 I really can't afford it. With the great sounding F-1, - I think that it's best to pick up a 1.5m AS Silver Statement SPDIF COAX cable and see how, or if it betters my APL SPDIF cable. That $550 will go a long way to getting a RedNet 3. I thought that the Purist adapter was $300, - but it turns out that it was an old model.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Thanks...
> 
> Looks like it's not going to happen. At $550 I really can't afford it. With the great sounding F-1, - I think that it's best to pick up a 1.5m AS Silver Statement SPDIF COAX cable and see how, or if it betters my APL SPDIF cable. That $550 will go a long way to getting a RedNet 3. I thought that the Purist adapter was $300, - but it turns out that it was an old model.


 

 Och!  Well a Mutec MC-3+ would work with either the F-1 or the RN3 - that might be a good start - and you can do spdif in AES out.  If you get the USB version - you wouldn't need the F-1


----------



## kazsud

Has anyone heard the nuprime wr-100? It does ethernet in and coax out 


http://www.nuprimeaudio.com/index.php/products/wireless/wr100.html


----------



## Yviena

albrecht said:


> Thanks...
> 
> Looks like it's not going to happen. At $550 I really can't afford it. With the great sounding F-1, - I think that it's best to pick up a 1.5m AS Silver Statement SPDIF COAX cable and see how, or if it betters my APL SPDIF cable. That $550 will go a long way to getting a RedNet 3. I thought that the Purist adapter was $300, - but it turns out that it was an old model.




A cheap way to get very clean power to your F1 would be a ipower 5V a female usb dc barrel adapter and a split usb cable.

I seen some measurements of the ipower noise being around -100db aka 1uv.

That way you can have the f1 electrically isolated from the pc/source


----------



## wushuliu

yviena said:


> A cheap way to get very clean power to your F1 would be a ipower 5V a female usb dc barrel adapter and a split usb cable.
> 
> I seen some measurements of the ipower noise being around -100db aka 1uv.
> 
> That way you can have the f1 electrically isolated from the pc/source




It does have the tendency to make a high-pitch squealing noise as several other people have reported from the ipower unit


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> A cheap way to get very clean power to your F1 would be a ipower 5V a female usb dc barrel adapter and a split usb cable.
> 
> I seen some measurements of the ipower noise being around -100db aka 1uv.
> 
> That way you can have the f1 electrically isolated from the pc/source


 

 No we are talking about GI on the SPDIF output.


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> It does have the tendency to make a high-pitch squealing noise as several other people have reported from the ipower unit


 

 I have or should I say had two, one now.  They can make a mechanical noise if you put your ear close.  Mine were pretty quiet.  The transformers vibrate - depending on load and AC line.


----------



## Yviena

I thought most spdif implementations already have that via pulse transformers.


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> I thought most spdif implementations already have that via pulse transformers.


 

 Me too.  But someone said only AES/EBU had GI (at least that was how I took it).  Check back a few pages.  He is someone who knows a lot...so?


----------



## rb2013

Ok using my DDM I tested both the F-1 and the X-1 for galvanic isolation.  They both have it - completely isolated. SPDIF coax from USB.


----------



## mhamel

albrecht said:


> Thanks...
> 
> Looks like it's not going to happen. At $550 I really can't afford it. With the great sounding F-1, - I think that it's best to pick up a 1.5m AS Silver Statement SPDIF COAX cable and see how, or if it betters my APL SPDIF cable. That $550 will go a long way to getting a RedNet 3. I thought that the Purist adapter was $300, - but it turns out that it was an old model.


 
  
 You can build your own SPDIF isolator for less than $25 in parts.


----------



## Albrecht

> A cheap way to get very clean power to your F1 would be a ipower 5V a female usb dc barrel adapter and a split usb cable.


 
   
Thank you very much. The source is a NAS & microRendu. Swenson's Rendu has some isolation tech built in. But my goal was to isolate at the connection at my APL universal in the SPDIF part of the chain only. I was debating either keeping my APL SPDIF cable & trying the SPDIF isolator; or, - buying a 1.5m AS silver statement.

  
 But thank you for your suggestion: appreciate it.


----------



## Albrecht

> They both have it - completely isolated. SPDIF coax from USB.


 
  
 So, - issues from USB to SPDIF are going to be minimized: meaning, - a SPDIF isolator like the Purist, - isn't really going to be effective? Wouldn't a shorter SPDIF cable possibly still present "reflection" issues?
  
 Thanks for testing the X-1 & F-1 !!!
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Albrecht

> You can build your own SPDIF isolator for less than $25 in parts.


 
  
 Appreciate very much that thought & suggestion. But if there's soldering involved, - it's waaaay outside my purview. Besides, - I don't trust myself. The APL, with many "protections" removed for a purer signal path, - cannot be risked by a "DIY" device. I have to do everything I can to keep my baby running, - because if it dies, - I am screwed....
  
 Thanks though for your comments & time.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Thank you very much. The source is a NAS & microRendu. Swenson's Rendu has some isolation tech built in. But my goal was to isolate at the connection at my APL universal in the SPDIF part of the chain only. I was debating either keeping my APL SPDIF cable & trying the SPDIF isolator; or, - buying a 1.5m AS silver statement.
> 
> But thank you for your suggestion: appreciate it.


 
 Be careful of calling it 'Swenson's Rendu' - as I was chastized from my Dutch friend and others for that faux paux.  Better to be explict here in stating that JS worked with Sonore on the Rendu and microrendu.  I know what you mean - as a matter of written breivity.  But some folks relish a chance to 'correct this misinformation'.
  
 Cheers!
  


albrecht said:


> So, - issues from USB to SPDIF are going to be minimized: meaning, - a SPDIF isolator like the Purist, - isn't really going to be effective? Wouldn't a shorter SPDIF cable possibly still present "reflection" issues?
> 
> Thanks for testing the X-1 & F-1 !!!
> 
> Cheers,


 
 Well that's a good point.  The Purist is not just a GI device, which I had argued wasn't needed today with the Pulse and even better Murata isolation transformers on the spdif line, and the even better F-1 isolation schemes for SPDIF.  It does deal with the real world issues of back wave reflections on the spdif coax line - mainly due to slight impedence mismatching (nothing is perfectly matched).  This screws with the SPDIF receiver.
  
 Speaking of impedance mis-match on SPDIF.  If anyone owns a Yggy - best to have it checked. It's been discovered that the SPDIF and BNC are out of spec impedence wise.  In fact so badly that the Rednet gear won't work with that connection!
  
 I understand Schiit is replacing those - so contact them.
  
 Anyone using a F-1 with a Yggy and has this bad connector would likely see an improvement in SQ with this fixed.


----------



## rb2013

BTW We had the honor of a visit to the AOIP thread of @leter15 from Singxer!  He is listening to us...
  
 1 hour, 48 minutes ago 

 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/3f/100x100px-LS-3fdfc0aa_avatar-120-7.jpg[/img] 
 
leter15





 
*online*
 
4 Posts. Joined 4/2016
 

  Hi guys.
 i am Leter,from the Singxer.
 It's a pleasure to come to this forum.
 this is a crazy thread.
 more and more AES67 product will come out.
 I also think the AES67 will represent the future
 thanks.


----------



## Albrecht

> mainly due to slight impedence mismatching (nothing is perfectly matched).  This screws with the SPDIF receiver.


 
  
 Thanks again RB,
  
 Cheers,


----------



## wushuliu

mhamel said:


> You can build your own SPDIF isolator for less than $25 in parts.


 

 How? Any links?


----------



## mhamel

http://www.epanorama.net/newepa/2009/10/02/digital-audio-isolation/
  
 Basic - there are more complicated circuits but probably not needed. You'll probably have to do some searching on where to find the transformer, but they're readily available.


----------



## ciphercomplete

rb2013 said:


> Speaking of impedance mis-match on SPDIF.  If anyone owns a Yggy - best to have it checked. It's been discovered that the SPDIF and BNC are out of spec impedence wise.  In fact so badly that the Rednet gear won't work with that connection!
> 
> I understand Schiit is replacing those - so contact them.
> 
> Anyone using a F-1 with a Yggy and has this bad connector would likely see an improvement in SQ with this fixed.


 
  
 This is OLD news (as in more than a year old) but its worth repeating and folks should send their Yggys back for repair if they are freaked out.  BUT there is ALOT of misinformation in your post.  
  
 1. The spdif (as a whole) is not "out of spec" or whatever.  Its just the BNC connector itself.
  
 2. The wrong BNC connector was sent to the assembler on the early (low serial number) units, higher serial number units have the correct BNC plug.
  
 3. F-1 users will NOT see a sq improvement unless they are using the BNC input with some sort of RCA to BNC converter. Again he RCA input is not affected.  *I noticed no difference between the BNC and RCA using the F-1*
  
 I have a early serial number Yggy and I have never sent it in to have the wrong spec'ed BNC replaced.  I suppose I might if the BNC input ever becomes my primary input but I usually move between RCA and AES.  I didn't test the spdif out on the D16 when I had it but AtomicBob figured out why the Yggy and the D16 didnt get along in the AOIP thread.


----------



## vhsownsbeta

rb2013 said:


> BTW We had the honor of a visit to the AOIP thread of @leter15
> from Singxer!  He is listening to us...
> 
> 1 hour, 48 minutes ago
> ...




I have been very happy with F-1. I can only imagine what Singxer could do with AOIP in terms of 'bringing it to the masses'...


----------



## wushuliu

mhamel said:


> http://www.epanorama.net/newepa/2009/10/02/digital-audio-isolation/
> 
> Basic - there are more complicated circuits but probably not needed. You'll probably have to do some searching on where to find the transformer, but they're readily available.


 
 thanks!


----------



## wushuliu

ciphercomplete said:


> This is OLD news (as in more than a year old) but its worth repeating and folks should send their Yggys back for repair if they are freaked out.  BUT there is ALOT of misinformation in your post.
> 
> 1. The spdif (as a whole) is not "out of spec" or whatever.  Its just the BNC connector itself.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't think anyone thinks he literally meant the whole spdif is out of spec...


----------



## rb2013

ciphercomplete said:


> This is OLD news (as in more than a year old) but its worth repeating and folks should send their Yggys back for repair if they are freaked out.  BUT there is ALOT of misinformation in your post.
> 
> 1. The spdif (as a whole) is not "out of spec" or whatever.  Its just the BNC connector itself.
> 
> ...


 

 OK - well this is based on a report on the failure of the Yggy to work with the RND16 on both the BNC and SPDIF - since then he has updated his test info.  The thinking was that both the BNC and SPDIF connectors were out of impedence spec- based on the previously reported issue, but he now reports more information on further testing:
  


> Further instance of *Yggdrasil null* (but not GuMBy) via spdif where Source is D16 AES:
> Matrix of D16 AES(/Gustard U12) " GuMBy/Yggdrasil [credit: "atomicbob"]
> _Where the Reclocker and next column are marked "none" it means the Source Transport connected directly to the DAC input. The final column, simply titled "works" indicates whether you will hear music or not._


 


> Ok, I believe I know root cause for the issue. I have support screenshots if anyone is interested in seeing them. Data obtained using RME DigiCheck Channel Status monitor.
> 
> Summary:
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

vhsownsbeta said:


> I have been very happy with F-1. I can only imagine what Singxer could do with AOIP in terms of 'bringing it to the masses'...


 

 Yes - hoping for a well designed 2 channel AOIP AES67 interface - at a lower cost.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

ciphercomplete said:


> This is OLD news (as in more than a year old) but its worth repeating and folks should send their Yggys back for repair if they are freaked out.  BUT there is ALOT of misinformation in your post.
> 
> 1. The spdif (as a whole) is not "out of spec" or whatever.  Its just the BNC connector itself.
> 
> ...




Sorry to derail the thread, but I do have to ask if this problem with the BNC connector on older Yggys was also true for the Gungnir Multibit.


----------



## johnjen

liu junyuan said:


> Sorry to derail the thread, but I do have to ask if this problem with the BNC connector on older Yggys was also true for the Gungnir Multibit.


 
 In a word, no.
  
 JJ


----------



## Liu Junyuan

johnjen said:


> In a word, no.
> 
> JJ




Thanks. That's good to know.


----------



## Currawong

I played around with using either a USB cable and an gender changer with the F-1, or using a USB gender changer from the iUSB 3 and an S/PDIF cable from the F-1 to the Yggy and noticed slight differences, but it was seriously hard to decide which was better.


----------



## Sergey83149

sergey83149 said:


> Updated Teradak X1 capacitors. To me  have come from Panasonic.


----------



## manishex

My F-1 doesn't seem to play 192kHz or over (coax), and Bughead emperor won't let me select anything under 352.8kHz for DSD playback.
  
 Sergey, I bought the X1/X2 for my first LPS, hope it works well.


----------



## Sergey83149

manishex said:


> My F-1 doesn't seem to play 192kHz or over (coax), and Bughead emperor won't let me select anything under 352.8kHz for DSD playback.
> 
> Sergey, I bought the X1/X2 for my first LPS, hope it works well.


 
I listen to 44.1 / 16 Tidal my Dac Dgicon202 collected by Russian engineers can play up to 192/24. Although the settings you can select midi 768000.0 




 
Many thanks rb2013! Excellent sound F1! 


 The first business hours!


----------



## DObleX

sergey83149 said:


> I listen to 44.1 / 16 Tidal my Dac Dgicon202 collected by Russian engineers can play up to 192/24. Although the settings you can select midi 768000.0
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Good idea to feed F1 from Teradak only (without any additional devices). Could you compare the differences in sound quality feeding F1 from USB and from Teradak?


----------



## Sergey83149

I will surely try and will write after warming up of 100 hours! I suspect this question to you better rb2013 will answer.


----------



## rb2013

sergey83149 said:


> I listen to 44.1 / 16 Tidal my Dac Dgicon202 collected by Russian engineers can play up to 192/24. Although the settings you can select midi 768000.0
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

doblex said:


> Good idea to feed F1 from Teradak only (without any additional devices). Could you compare the differences in sound quality feeding F1 from USB and from Teradak?


 

 I have tried every manner of power chain with the F-1 over many months.  The addition of a Recovery or Regen (fed by the TeraDak) adds a much better SQ.  Also the more expensive TeraDak DC-30w with the R-core transformer and pannie caps is better then the X1/X2.
  
 I did swap out the caps on one X1/X2 - the generic gray chinese for Nichicon HW super low impedance, high PSRR, to good effect:
  
 X1/X2 stock:

  
  
 X1/X2 with upgraded Nichicon HW caps:

  
  
 DC-30W:


----------



## Sergey83149

Nichicon HW:
what exactly to buy?
If you can link?
￼


----------



## rb2013

sergey83149 said:


> Nichicon HW:
> what exactly to buy?
> If you can link?
> ￼


 

 25V 1500uf - http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/capacitors/aluminum-capacitors/131081?k=&pkeyword=&s=51589&FV=fff40002%2Cfff80009%2Cfffc01ed%2C340059%2Cfc01ea&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
  


> Lifetime @ Temp.​10000 Hrs @ 105°COperating Temperature​-40°C ~ 105°CPolarization​PolarApplications​General PurposeRipple Current​2.6A @ 120HzImpedance​16 mOhmLead Spacing​0.197" (5.00mm)Size / Dimension​0.492" Dia (12.50mm)Height - Seated (Max)​0.866" (22.00mm)Surface Mount Land Size​-Mounting Type​Through HolePackage / Case​Radial, CanOnline Catalog​HW (UHW) Series


----------



## Sergey83149

Thank you !


----------



## rb2013

As a cheaper and portable alternative to the TeraDak LPS - I've had good success powering various gear (the F-1 and the X-1) with this Li Ion Battery:
  
Original XIAOMI 16000mAh Power Bank
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/151679157835?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
  
 $19.  You could buy two and have one on the charger as the other plays.
  
 Using one right now to power the LEX end of the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB entender - I think in this use it sounds better then the stock TeraDak X1.


----------



## Luckbad

Anyone looking for an F-1 with enclosure ping me. I have the SU-1 coming as soon as I sell the F-1. It'll be listed tomorrow.


----------



## rw35

luckbad said:


> Anyone looking for an F-1 with enclosure ping me. I have the SU-1 coming as soon as I sell the F-1. It'll be listed tomorrow.


 

 Please post a comparison with the F-1 vs SU-1... keen to see if it's better, particularly via AES if possible?


----------



## Sergey83149




----------



## Sergey83149




----------



## Sergey83149

Today, boxing has arrived. Here's what happened!


----------



## Albrecht

>


 
  
 Wow, - really nice case-work, - especially on the square USB cut-out.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Yviena

sergey83149 said:


> Today, boxing has arrived. Here's what happened!




What tools did you use to make the holes?


----------



## Sergey83149

Only these.


----------



## Sergey83149

F1 had to turn over. It prevents seizure on the body, which is the center of the box.


----------



## classfolkphile

hugoboss said:


> oh my god i just check taobao they already have finished product but it costly man
> very costly compare to melodius or gustard it cost $300
> 
> here is the pic
> ...


 
  
 So has anyone heard this yet?


----------



## kazsud

classfolkphile said:


> So has anyone heard this yet?


----------



## Yviena

They should have made the SU-1 with a dc jack instead of a transformer, less emi/rfi inside chassis and cleaner power if buying a lps.


----------



## stigb

classfolkphile said:


> So has anyone heard this yet?


  
*Singxer SU-1*
 I got mine a couple a days ago. I use it with the StarTech Port USB 2.0 Extender over Gigabit to the SU-1 and then connect to PS Audio DirectStream Dac via I2S.
 The sound is the best I have heard from my system yet.
  
 I would guess using the scale of soundquality used by rb2013 it is about 20 point higher than his highest.


----------



## ginetto61

stigb said:


> *Singxer SU-1*
> 
> I got mine a couple a days ago. I use it with the StarTech Port USB 2.0 Extender over Gigabit to the SU-1 and then connect to PS Audio DirectStream Dac via I2S.
> The sound is the best I have heard from my system yet.
> I would guess using the scale of soundquality used by rb2013 it is about 20 point higher than his highest.


 
  
 Hi !  have you tried it also with *the AES/EBU link *maybe ?
 Thanks, gino


----------



## stigb

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !  have you tried it also with *the AES/EBU link *maybe ?
> Thanks, gino


 
 Sorry no, I don't have a AES/EBU link.


----------



## ginetto61

stigb said:


> Sorry no, I don't have a AES/EBU link.


 
  
 Hi and thanks for the kind reply.
 Very beautiful units you have. 
 Regards, gino


----------



## motberg

Cool... where are the i2S jumpers/switches, inside the box or on the back panel ?


----------



## stigb

The jumpers are under the case. Easy to set. But I didn't have to change the jumpers for the SU-1 to work with my DirectStream Dac and I2S.


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> They should have made the SU-1 with a dc jack instead of a transformer, less emi/rfi inside chassis and cleaner power if buying a lps.


 
 I agree!
  


stigb said:


> *Singxer SU-1*
> I got mine a couple a days ago. I use it with the StarTech Port USB 2.0 Extender over Gigabit to the SU-1 and then connect to PS Audio DirectStream Dac via I2S.
> The sound is the best I have heard from my system yet.
> 
> I would guess using the scale of soundquality used by rb2013 it is about 20 point higher than his highest.


 
 How would you know - you haven't even heard my uber USB chain?  Highly doubt the SU-1 beats a really good LPS on the F-1.  The circuits are about the same (but not identical).
 The AOIP Rednet is in another universe then any USB I have heard.  And with a host of recent tweeks made better and better.  I'd estimate the RN3/Mutec about 150pts higher then the SU-1.
  
 But for $300 the SU-1 is a good value for the money - just not sota computer audio - don't kid yourself.


----------



## stigb

rb2013 said:


> I agree!
> 
> How would you know - you haven't even heard my uber USB chain?  Highly doubt the SU-1 beats a really good LPS on the F-1.  The circuits are about the same (but not identical).
> The AOIP Rednet is in another universe then any USB I have heard.  And with a host of recent tweeks made better and better.  I'd estimate the RN3/Mutec about 150pts higher then the SU-1.
> ...


 
 I didn't say I know I said I guessed. And how would you know mine isn't better, you haven't heard my über SU-1 chain with I2S out to the DAC.
 Just kidding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 You gave the Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB - 170pts
 I would say that the Startech GB LAN Iso USB and SU-1 is at least on par with that and I have a better DAC than you. So 170pts + 90pts for the DAC=260pts 
 There you see my guessing wasn't so bad.


----------



## rb2013

stigb said:


> I didn't say I know I said I guessed. And how would you know mine isn't better, you haven't heard my über SU-1 chain with I2S out to the DAC.
> Just kidding.


 
 Good point!  Have you tried a Regen or Recovery with the SU-1?  Just wondering if they have as much of an impact as with the F-1.   Same for the iPur2.  Even with the ICRON/Startech GB Lan Iso Audio (must be the Iso Audio version) USB extender, these improved the SQ.
  
 Speaking of - do you have the F-1 to compare?  Curious as to how they sound side by side.
  
 Obviously I love the Singxer designed gear.  He's been following my AOIP thread  - so we shall see what he comes up with there.
  
 PS What DAC are you using?  The PS Audio?


----------



## stigb

rb2013 said:


> Good point!  Have you tried a Regen or Recovery with the SU-1?  Just wondering if they have as much of an impact as with the F-1.   Same for the iPur2.  Even with the ICRON/Startech GB Lan Iso Audio (must be the Iso Audio version) USB extender, these improved the SQ.
> 
> Speaking of - do you have the F-1 to compare?  Curious as to how they sound side by side.
> 
> ...


 
 I have the PS DirectStream DAC.
 I had the Regen in my chain before. But now with the StarTech Port USB 2.0 Extender over Gigabit (it is the ISO) to the SU-1 I didn't think that the Regen could make it better. I use my Plex LPS to the Startech so now i don't have an LPS to the Regen. But it is worth a try to put the Regen back 
  
 Sorry no F-1, because my goal was to output I2S my PS DirectStream DAC.


----------



## rb2013

stigb said:


> I have the PS DirectStream DAC.
> I had the Regen in my chain before. But now with the StarTech Port USB 2.0 Extender over Gigabit (it is the ISO) to the SU-1 I didn't think that the Regen could make it better. I use my Plex LPS to the Startech so now i don't have an LPS to the Regen. But it is worth a try to put the Regen back
> 
> Sorry no F-1, because my goal was to output I2S my PS DirectStream DAC.


 
 The Recovery is better then the Regen - you should give that a try at some point.  I'd also try using a split USB cable from the Startech to the SU-1 (data leg only).
  
 I did a face off for an evening on a PS Perfectwave Directstream DAC with the Breeze Audio DU-U8 $150) fed by spdif (unfortunately just a BJC cable) and the $1800 OR5 (with the Turbo PS) by i2s (PS Audio cable) to the PS Audio.  So we could do on the fly (well pretty nearly) comparisons. So I do think i2s is better - but not by leaps over spdif.
  
 The OR5 and i2s was a bit better - but the spdif Breeze was within shooting distance.  I'd say the F-1 would be a very close match - and maybe beat the OR5/i2s.
  
 The REDNET - well I don't think it would be a fair fight - just in a different league.  Even with spdif.


----------



## stigb

rb2013 said:


> The Recovery is better then the Regen - you should give that a try at some point.  I'd also try using a split USB cable from the Startech to the SU-1 (data leg only).
> 
> I did a face off for an evening on a PS Perfectwave Directstream DAC with the Breeze Audio DU-U8 $150) fed by spdif (unfortunately just a BJC cable) and the $1800 OR5 (with the Turbo PS) by i2s (PS Audio cable) to the PS Audio.  So we could do on the fly (well pretty nearly) comparisons. So I do think i2s is better - but not by leaps over spdif.
> 
> ...


 
 I use the Curious USB cable from my tX-USBexp-card (from SOtM) to the StarTech and a Curious USB cable from the StarTech to the SU-1. Is there a better cable that you recommend?


----------



## rb2013

stigb said:


> I use the Curious USB cable from my tX-USBexp-card (from SOtM) to the StarTech and a Curious USB cable from the StarTech to the SU-1. Is there a better cable that you recommend?


 
 I use the 200mm Curious from the Recovery to the F-1 and a LH Labs 2G (data only leg) from the REX to the Recovery, Forza Twin Copper split from the PPA V2 to the LEX unit.  The PPA V2 is fed by an ext LPS TeraDak 5VDC (which is what powers the LEX unit).  On the REX I use a 24VDC LPS (Breeze Audio R-Core).  The Recovery is powered by a TeraDAk DC-30W with a DC iPur.
  
 The SU-1 shouldn't need to 'see' a +5VDC on the USB input to work - so a split cable maybe a great solution - running just the data leg.  I have a spare 2g from my main system for sale on Ebay.
  
 This what I'm running in my office system - until I can find another REDNET used or until another Dante Brooklyn (or BKII) AOIP 2 channel hits the market.  Then the entire office USB chain will be sold - including the Startech.
  
 PS I had a 1M Curious USB and did a rolling comp against the Supra, Forza Split, 2G split - the 2G was preferred.  But since the F-1 needs a USB power feed the short Curious is very good for that.  Better the the Recovery short cable certainly, and better then the Regen adapter.


----------



## Albrecht

stigb said:


> on par with that and I have a better DAC than you.


 
 Well, - having both RBs DAC, - (I own the APL too), and having a Directstream DAC in my system to directly compare: I can say that your statement is entirely untrue...
  
 At least from where I sit....
  







  
 Cheers,


----------



## stigb

albrecht said:


> Well, - having both RBs DAC, - (I own the APL too), and having a Directstream DAC in my system to directly compare: I can say that your statement is entirely untrue...
> 
> At least from where I sit....
> 
> ...


 
 You are sitting to far from your system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if you think that the APL is better than the DirectStream.
  
 Just joking around, Of course everyone has their own preference. I'm glad you like your APL better than the Directstream.
  
 Cheers mate!


----------



## Albrecht

rb2013 said:


> I did a face off for an evening on a PS Perfectwave Directstream DAC with the Breeze Audio DU-U8 $150) fed by spdif (unfortunately just a BJC cable) and the $1800 OR5 (with the Turbo PS) by i2s (PS Audio cable) to the PS Audio.  So we could do on the fly (well pretty nearly) comparisons. So I do think i2s is better - but not by leaps over spdif.


 
  
 Nice to know that you also tried the Direcstream back to back with your APL. For me, - it didn't do as advertised, - which was to make Redbook sound like DSD.
  
 I didn't try it with I2s however. Of course, - the APL can't do I2s, - so it wasn't a completely unfair test.
  
 My AS Statement 1.5m SPDIF cable is due to arrive here at work any second.....
  
 We're going to be cranking some music tonight.


----------



## Albrecht

stigb said:


> You are sitting to far from your system
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I hear ya... I'm also on the "taking the piss" bus....
  
 The Directstream is a great product. And I'm not sure whether APL or PS Audio was first out with their versions. APL does make a tubed, reference, FPGA-everything-to-DSD, DAC as well as a non-tubed, - more budget DSD-s version that is priced similarly to the Directstream.
  
 They're all great


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Well, - having both RBs DAC, - (I own the APL too), and having a Directstream DAC in my system to directly compare: I can say that your statement is entirely untrue...
> 
> At least from where I sit....
> 
> ...


 
 Having heard all three DACs - I would have to agree.
  


stigb said:


> You are sitting to far from your system
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 While the Perfectwave DirectStream is very good - especially on DSD native files - it lacks the bloom and tonality of the APL and particularly the intensely dense tonal pallette of the modded DAC60.  This is due to the very well done tube output stages on both these DACs.
  
 I'd have to concur with Darko on his ranking of the Perfectwave and Directwave (on PCM files):  The Perfectwave kinda in there with the Gumby, the Directwave a notch above, but not at the top.  Note the R2R PCM1704 , tubed output, La Scala MkII at the top of his list.
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/
  
_Premier League _​ 
Aqua Hifi La Scala MKII
 _Division 1_​ 
Chord Hugo TT
PS Audio DirectStream
Resonessence Labs INVICTA Mirus
 _Division 2_​ 
Aqua La Voce S2
Audio-gd Reference 7.1  – [discontinued]
AURALiC Vega
Chord Hugo
Chord Mojo
Metrum Acoustics “Hex”
PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MKII
Schiit Gungnir Multibit
WLM Gamma
 _Division 3_​ 
AudioQuest DragonFly Red
Anedio D1 [discontinued]
Audio-gd  Reference 10.2
db Audio Labs Tranquility SE
Eastern Electric MiniMax [discontinued]
Lenehan Audio (Base Level) PDX
Lite DAC-83
Metrum Acoustics “Octave”
Mytek Stereo192-DSD
Peachtree iNova [discontinued]
PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MKI  [discontinued]
Red Wine Audio Isabellina LFP-V Edition
Schiit Bifrost Multibit
Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Nice to know that you also tried the Direcstream back to back with your APL. For me, - it didn't do as advertised, - which was to make Redbook sound like DSD.
> 
> I didn't try it with I2s however. Of course, - the APL can't do I2s, - so it wasn't a completely unfair test.
> 
> ...


 
 I have the Synergistic Research Element Series Active Copper SPDIF coming on Tuesday.  Got a great deal from David Weinhart of Weinhart Design - almost 1/3 of the new price on a demo.  He says it's not quite as good as the new Atomsphere but pretty close and those are $2K.
  
 The Audience au24se is little more detailed then the AS Statment 1.5M (which I'm still using in the office system), a touch deeper in SS as well.  So I sold the AS from the main system.  Funny swapping it in place of the BNC BJC between the RN and Mutec made no difference - it's only after Mutec MC-3+ USB as spdif reclocker do I hear changes.
  
 So we'll see if the SR Element is better then the Audience.  At this stage even minor incremental improvents are notable and very pleasing.  It's like the better the source gets, ironing out any remaining wrinkles just is so noticible.
  


albrecht said:


> I hear ya... I'm also on the "taking the piss" bus....
> 
> The Directstream is a great product. And I'm not sure whether APL or PS Audio was first out with their versions. APL does make a tubed, reference, FPGA-everything-to-DSD, DAC as well as a non-tubed, - more budget DSD-s version that is priced similarly to the Directstream.
> 
> They're all great


 
 Would love to hear APL's new stuff!  Esp the tubed DSD-M.  MArcin from JCAT sent me pictures of his - I believe it's his reference.
  
 I agree completely at this level - they're all great and would be happy to have any (and wish I could afford all!)
  
 Cheers!


----------



## stigb

rb2013 said:


> Having heard all three DACs - I would have to agree.
> 
> While the Perfectwave DirectStream is very good - especially on DSD native files - it lacks the bloom and tonality of the APL and particularly the intensely dense tonal pallette of the modded DAC60.  This is due to the very well done tube output stages on both these DACs.
> 
> ...


 
 PS Audio says that the best way to connect the DirectStream Dac is via I2S. I have earlier only used USB to connect to the DirectStream Dac and was rather satisfied with that. But with the SU-1 I got the opportunity to connect to the Dac via HDMI (even though it is a cheap HDMI-cable) and I found as PS Audio said that IT sounded much better. Specially on DSD-files. But I will probably skip the StarTech in a year or so and try the the road you guys are travelling. But for the moment I am very satisfied how my system sounds.


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> Having heard all three DACs - I would have to agree.
> 
> While the Perfectwave DirectStream is very good - especially on DSD native files - it lacks the bloom and tonality of the APL and particularly the intensely dense tonal pallette of the modded DAC60.  This is due to the very well done tube output stages on both these DACs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've been researching the DirectStream quite a bit, and it's the top contender to add to my speaker system (can get new in box from Audiogon for <4k). One thing to keep in mind is that Darko's and many other reviewers' impressions of the DirectStream are based on the early firmware versions. Reviewers and users alike have been reporting significant improvements to the sound quality with each subsequent firmware update (Pikes Peak, Yale Final, and they just released a new version a few weeks ago) and it could potentially get even better in the future. Of course it will not have the tube sound, but it may compete in other categories.
  
 If/when we get a Dante/Ravenna 2-ch interface with I2S output, I'll be the first to post my impressions of I2S vs SPDIF with the DS.
  


stigb said:


> PS Audio says that the best way to connect the DirectStream Dac is via I2S. I have earlier only used USB to connect to the DirectStream Dac and was rather satisfied with that. But with the SU-1 I got the opportunity to connect to the Dac via HDMI (even though it is a cheap HDMI-cable) and I found as PS Audio said that IT sounded much better. Specially on DSD-files. But I will probably skip the StarTech in a year or so and try the the road you guys are travelling. But for the moment I am very satisfied how my system sounds.


 

 If you do want to go down the Ethernet USB extender route, PS Audio is coming out with their "LANRover" device which may yield significant improvements over the non-audio-optimized Startech LAN. It will be interesting to see how much of the gap it can close between USB and RN3 AOIP.


----------



## Yviena

First thing i would actually recommend to anyone who uses speakers is fix up your room, and get diffusers/absorbers/super chunks in corners.
  
 I just did this and the improvement i got is leagues above any dac/amp/device i can think of.
 Your good to go tough if you only use headphones,  I'm probably not the norm tho since i strive to get my frequency response as flat as possible. even using studio monitors.


----------



## ciphercomplete

yviena said:


> First thing i would actually recommend to anyone who uses speakers is fix up your room, and get diffusers/absorbers/super chunks in corners.


 
  
  
 This can't be said enough.  Most "speaker only" guys ignore room acoustics completely.  Super chunks and absorbers completely changed my listening room.


----------



## Duy Le

Does someone know where to buy this cable?
 I plan to use F-1 with Anker Power Bank 
 Thanks !


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

These used to be sold with Teradak linear power supplies. You may have luck contacting the eBay sellers who sell Teradak units. 





duy le said:


> Does someone know where to buy this cable?
> I plan to use F-1 with Anker Power Bank
> Thanks !


----------



## hopkins

You can get it here: http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/adaptateurs-divers/cable-adaptateur-usbb-pour-alimentation-externe-usba-p-8389.html

They have different variants.


----------



## vhsownsbeta

Most of the chickens have flown the coop, but XU216 is available at DIYINHK...
  
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


----------



## hugoboss

btw rb2013 have diynhk sent you the newest dx10 pro3z
 it's already in their website the cost is $216 using xmos xu216 and ndk crystal
  
 it's said double the xmos xu208 in f1
 seems inetresting to compare with f1


----------



## somestranger26

hugoboss said:


> btw rb2013 have diynhk sent you the newest dx10 pro3z
> it's already in their website the cost is $216 using xmos xu216 and ndk crystal
> 
> it's said double the xmos xu208 in f1
> seems inetresting to compare with f1


 

@rb2013


----------



## rb2013

hugoboss said:


> btw rb2013 have diynhk sent you the newest dx10 pro3z
> it's already in their website the cost is $216 using xmos xu216 and ndk crystal
> 
> it's said double the xmos xu208 in f1
> seems inetresting to compare with f1


No I canceled my order. Moving to AOIP now.


----------



## Albrecht

Hi RB,
  
 Thanks for all that info on the Synergistic & the Audience. Audience were recommended cables for my Merlin speakers,


> The Audience au24se is little more detailed then the AS Statment 1.5M (which I'm still using in the office system), a touch deeper in SS as well.  So I sold the AS from the main system.


 
 but in my space, with my amps and the APL, - I found them too thin. Of course, - that was a few years ago, and speaker cable is not the same as SPDIF digital. I got the 1.5m AS Statement in place and it was better out-O-the-box than the APL SPDIF. Soundstaging is much better, maybe a touch less detail, but a more cohesive presentation.
  
  
 The Mutec sounds like it's a great converter/reclocker. I am starting to consider buying the Mutec first, - (before jumping all in to the Rednet), - then I'll already have the Mutec converting USB to SPDIF...
  
 I wonder if it'll beat the F-1 as an USB to SPDIF converter......


----------



## somestranger26

albrecht said:


> The Mutec sounds like it's a great converter/reclocker. I am starting to consider buying the Mutec first, - (before jumping all in to the Rednet), - then I'll already have the Mutec converting USB to SPDIF...
> 
> I wonder if it'll beat the F-1 as an USB to SPDIF converter......


 
 In his most up to date ranking he has the a la carte F-1 at 130 and Mutec at 150. With his whole chain including multiple reclockers, linear power supplies, and the ethernet extender he gave the F1 a 170.


----------



## occamsrazor

vhsownsbeta said:


> Most of the chickens have flown the coop, but XU216 is available at DIYINHK...
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


 

 Will be interested to hear if anyone gets one... but I would have preferred to see also AES & i2s outputs like the Singxer SU-1.


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> Hi RB,
> 
> Thanks for all that info on the Synergistic & the Audience. Audience were recommended cables for my Merlin speakers,
> but in my space, with my amps and the APL, - I found them too thin. Of course, - that was a few years ago, and speaker cable is not the same as SPDIF digital. I got the 1.5m AS Statement in place and it was better out-O-the-box than the APL SPDIF. Soundstaging is much better, maybe a touch less detail, but a more cohesive presentation.
> ...


 

 The Audience au24 se was a major step up over the old line, don't know which you had - and they have a sx coming out now (I love to buy cables on launch of the next series - big discounts).  The au24 se just had more tonal body and image depth then the very good AS Statement.  Since the au24se was used it has a few hundred hours on it  - which got it fully burnt in before I bought it.  Digital cables handle very low signal levels and need long periods for burnin - unlike speaker cables or even interconnects.  I like to buy them used vs new - or at least demos that have been running a long time.
  
 Now the SR Element Copper digital arrived last Friday - another step-up.  With the gray bullet (these bullets do sound different), retaining the tonal body of the au - but adding even more liquidity.  Just ordered the Galileo MPC.  The prices I paid for the SR and the au24se were pretty good.  The SR NIB demo.
  
 These new digital cables have taken the SQ another step further - the Galileo should be here by weeks end.
  
 I just received a new intel PCIe ethernet networking card to try out. 
  
 The au24se went into my office system and I heard an immediate improvement.  This cable is $900 new and I paid $400 - I have now exhausted all the sub-$1000 digital cables on my 'to try' list.  Can't go to the kilo buck level - but very pleased at where I have wound up.
  
 So I have another Audio Sensibilities 1.5M Silver Statement for sale if anybody i looking for an excellent RCA digital cable.  PM me if interested.
  
 For me the F-1 (well fed) beat the Mutec MC-3+ USB as just a USB DDC (the USB board in the Mutec is nothing special), but with the 'extreme' upsampling G1 clock a great reclocker on SPDIF.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> In his most up to date ranking he has the a la carte F-1 at 130 and Mutec at 150. With his whole chain including multiple reclockers, linear power supplies, and the ethernet extender he gave the F1 a 170.


 

 That is correct - the Mutec vs just the F-1 was better - adding in the Recovery, the iPur2 and the Startech - took it way past the Mutec.  For some reason could not get those other devices to work with the Mutec  - I think do to the Mutec needing a USB +5VDC handshake and it's GI isolation.


----------



## Albrecht

> The Audience au24 se was a major step up over the old line, don't know which you had - and they have a sx coming out now


 
  
 Thanks RB! Much appreciated. Yeah, - the Audience stuff that I heard & had in my system was years before the SE line.
  
 Awesome that the Audience & Synergistic are so good. $900 cable is a bit out of my resources, - but maybe someday, - at half price.....
  
 Thanks again for comments. I am happy already with the AS, - and although not run-in yet, - I am probably getting some benefits by it being 1.5M instead of slightly less than 1M on the APL cable.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Sanlitun

Tonight I finally got out my battery pack and tried it out on the F1. Well wow, it certainly benefits from the battery power. Indeed much more than I found the Audiophilleo or other devices did.
  
 The improvement over the iFi iUSB is quite marked really, and I think this is the cleanest and most intimate sound I have ever heard from any headphone rig. I certainly recommend giving it a try if you have a double headed USB cable to hook up a separate power source.


----------



## rb2013

Just gotone of these to run as a word clocker for the RN3 - OXCO.
  
 Will accept a 10Mhz Atomic clock input as well - that'll be next.
  
  
 Antelope Audio Isochrone OCX High Resolution Audio Clock
 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/OCX?adpos=1t1&creative=114582609481&device=c&matchtype=b&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjw2PK7BRDPz5nDh9GjoGcSJAAybcS3RZ_FYfZ4XAFO03LR8TuV-FyFtJX3US-B_kyXxW0GYhoCtczw_wcB


----------



## abartels

Some jitter specs which you guys probably find interesting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/745032/lks-audio-mh-da003/270#post_12704127


----------



## classfolkphile

occamsrazor said:


> Will be interested to hear if anyone gets one... but I would have preferred to see also AES & i2s outputs like the Singxer SU-1.


 

 I ordered one, it's on it's way, although I wish it had BNC. It apparently also comes with a battery enclosure to power it.
  
 "Thank You for interesting in our product,
Free AA battery box is shipped with the package
The marking on the enclosure has indication of the socket polarity.
Technically, battery is the most silent power in the world.
Please notes the device may need upto 1A during startup."


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Some jitter specs which you guys probably find interesting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Good link - funny the 100Mhz crystals perform much better then the 22Mhz.
  
 Funnier still how the Singxer uses the NDK SD clocks (with much lower jitter - at least how he measured it) in their X1 compared to the Crystek CCHD-575 used in the F-1 - yet the F-1 sounds better.
  
 Anyway I have a ultra low phase noise/jitter OXCO (oven controled cyrstal osc) coming - to word clock my REDNET 3.  Already using a Mutec MC-3+ USB with it's 1G clock and extreme oversampling processing do the chore on the SPDIF side (to great effect).
  
 Interesting quote:


> "As most of people have a hard time to realize why they need something like clock at few ppm or even below ppm, I don' think my vaguely explanation can elaborate this topic." Clock accuracy has little to do with anything beyond pitch. You will not hear even 500 ppm, the literature indicates the sensitivity is .003 or .3% or 3000 ppm. However​jitteror phase noise is important and low phase noise is hard to achieve without a stable clock. *The lowest noise crystals are SC cut crystals that must be ovenized to work properly.*​


 
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/why-does-computer-matter-5568/index9.html
  
 As for phase noise - from NDK's website:

 The OCX oven clock module:


  
  
 There is even a light on the front panel to tell you the oven temp has stabilized the cyrstal and is ready for listening:


----------



## rb2013

Cool Youtube Vids on Jitter by Antelope Founding Engineer Igor Levin:
  
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGFFfw-VV3k
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-65gN44G9hU


----------



## FredA

Got my f-1. I put it in a case and bought 3 adapters, including an elbow, screwed together to connect the f-1 directly to the bnc input of my master-7. Like having no cable or almost and it minimizes the stress on the bnc socket. Sounds very good after 48 hours. Huge bass for sure. 

I am waiting for some parts to come in so i can add an i2s connection to the case. So far, it is about as good as my modified Breeze. I expect it to beat it on the bnc input, and blow it away through i2s once broken in. The i2s is not mandatory for everyone, it is just the best input on the m-7, that's all. The quality of an input depends on its implementation.

I feed it with the intona, which itself is fed by a schiit wyrd in cascade. Seems to work. I will try other combinations eventually. Seems like there not a hint of harshness in the sound, quite amazing. Waiting for the soundstage to open before i call it a steal.


----------



## FredA

Tried jb -> intona -> wyrd -> f-1 tonight. Wow! Now you are talking. 

I concluded a little too fast in my first impressions that the f-1 was as good as my modded breeze (oscillator swap for crysteks). It was not. But with the wyrd feeding the f-1, clarity is much improved. Might be a little better the modded breeze connected through i2s ( the f-1 being connected into the bnc input of my m-7).

Bottom line, the schiit wyrd is a much better way to feed the f-1 compared to the intona, as expected considering the rated output noise, a few uv for the wyrd vs 60 for the intona. Plus the wyrd is able to output more current.

The f-1 is singing big time now! Better from bottom to top. Sounds very similar to the modded breeze, although maybe 10 percent better. Feels like the sound is richer, fuller, again without any harshness. Totally grain-free.


----------



## manishex

How well does the ifi ipurifier compare to the wyrd?


----------



## FredA

manishex said:


> How well does the ifi ipurifier compare to the wyrd?




I would not know, haven't got one to try. But with the wyrd and and a two-legged usb cable with proper gauge, things sound pretty close to optimal. Better than any ddc i have heard feeding my m-7.


----------



## boogiefreak

hi,  soory to write this here but i cannot create a new thread on the diy forum section
 i’m new here and also not an electronic expert. Hope somebody can help me
 my usb interface (audio-gd NFB-1S) is broken (definitly). The manufacturer has discontinued  usb interface (USB32, xmos or amanero) for my dac so i guess i got no other choice and deal with a diy solution.
 DAC spec:   ES9018

 1st of all can this interface (reviewed on this thread) work with my dac and if so, how can i make it work ?

 thanx, i’m stuck cannot listen to DSD and 384khz music
 HELP!


----------



## FredA

boogiefreak said:


> hi,  soory to write this here but i cannot create a new thread on the diy forum section
> i’m new here and also not an electronic expert. Hope somebody can help me
> 
> my usb interface (audio-gd NFB-1S) is broken (definitly). The manufacturer has discontinued  usb interface (USB32, xmos or amanero) for my dac so i guess i got no other choice and deal with a diy solution.
> ...




Have you tried emailing audio-gd? You could have a driver/computer issue. Try another computer if you can. Audio-gd might have some usb32 boards left as well, if it is a hardware problem, which is very rare. I have owned 7 products from them and no hardware failure whatsoever.


----------



## boogiefreak

hi Freda , thanx for reply
 no it's physically broken (pulled accidentally on rca cable and ......) it's not a software or driver issue
 i've already contacted audio-gd     and they told me the USB modules usb32, amanero and xmos have been discontinued
 i insist that i have no other solution than change the usb pcb interface
  
 after some research   found this post  and maybe this could work for me
 and it's latest and better than the via1731
 so why not try this solution


----------



## FredA

boogiefreak said:


> hi Freda , thanx for reply
> no it's physically broken (pulled accidentally on rca cable and ......) it's not a software or driver issue
> i've already contacted audio-gd     and they told me the USB modules usb32, amanero and xmos have been discontinued
> i insist that i have no other solution than change the usb pcb interface
> ...




The easiest is to buy an external interface. 

I don't understand which rca cable? Was the interface external ? If it is just the cable that is broken, any technician could fix it in a few minutes.


----------



## FredA

boogiefreak said:


> hi Freda , thanx for reply
> no it's physically broken (pulled accidentally on rca cable and ......) it's not a software or driver issue
> i've already contacted audio-gd     and they told me the USB modules usb32, amanero and xmos have been discontinued
> i insist that i have no other solution than change the usb pcb interface
> ...




If you are comfortable with installing hardware, there is still this audio-gd xmos module available from audiophonics:

http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/interfaces/audio-gd-xmos-u8-interface-digitale-usb-vers-i2s-32bit-384khz-dsd-p-10383.html


----------



## boogiefreak

freda said:


> The easiest is to buy an external interface.
> 
> I don't understand which rca cable? Was the interface external ? If it is just the cable that is broken, any technician could fix it in a few minutes.


 
  


freda said:


> If you are comfortable with installing hardware, there is still this audio-gd xmos module available from audiophonics:
> 
> http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/interfaces/audio-gd-xmos-u8-interface-digitale-usb-vers-i2s-32bit-384khz-dsd-p-10383.html


 

 thanx for suggest but the second is exactly what i want (don't want to spend too much for this)
  

  
 correction it was not the rca but coax cable (red circled) that was  hooked and the dac fall while case opened (it a stupid accident but happened),   the usb interface in the greater red circle
 ok the link you gave it 's what i prefer (re-close the case and get rid of that)
 but i notice that the voltages are different     on xmos 5v     and on mine it's 3.3v
 do you think that can be modified,
 on the site  you gave the link there is the amanero (http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/interfaces/amanero-combo-384-interface-digitale-usb-384khz-vers-i2sdsd-p-7403.html)   with 3.3v
 what do you think    amanero or xmos , which one is the best?


----------



## bimmer100

manishex said:


> How well does the ifi ipurifier compare to the wyrd?



I always say just try it and listen. I own just about all those devices and find the wyrd works well for my wife's setup, but the ifi purifier2 is much better than the wyrd for my own setup. They both are pretty good, but if someone asked me which one I would prefer, it would be the ifi purifier2 without hesitation. More often than not, I've hear improvements with this over the wyrd. In some situations the wyrd actually made a setup sound notably worse.


----------



## FredA

boogiefreak said:


> thanx for suggest but the second is exactly what i want (don't want to spend too much for this)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The best thing would be to ask audio-gd, since they are the maker of both hardwares ( dac and xmos board).

I know that diyinhk.com make boards that operates under 3.3v and that they are very good. Again, maybe confirm with audio-gd if the devices are compatible.

Good luck with it.


----------



## FredA

boogiefreak said:


> thanx for suggest but the second is exactly what i want (don't want to spend too much for this)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Amanero is best. But to install it, on some audio-gd dacs like the m7, you need to change the firmware. I don't know about your dac. Again, ask audio-gd about it. You might have to make yourself a cable with proper i2s pin assignement. Same for for the power cable. Audio-gd could probably help you with this.


----------



## FredA

boogiefreak said:


> thanx for suggest but the second is exactly what i want (don't want to spend too much for this)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Another option, which is a direct replacement for the usb32 according to the description, made by audio-gd, both more expensive (...sorry):

http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/interfaces/audio-gd-amanero-combo-384-interface-digitale-usb-384khz-vers-i2sdsd-p-10134.html

If you are not in europe, you don't have to pay the VAT tax. So you pay 17% less. The price without tax is also posted in smaller characters.


----------



## FredA

Here is an update on my newly acquired f-1 after over 120 hours: in a word, it's awesome.

A couple of notches better than the modded breeze, not even on i2s. It's smoother and fuller. Bass is more generous, to such an extent that it made my speakers sound boomy. I had to apply a trick to them (for gallo 3.1 owners, the 15ohms 5w or more resistor applied on the boomer's second coil). 

I suspect that for mac owners, it is near perfection. I believe the apple computers have a huge advantage over windows-running pcs since the asynchronous usb2 playback is natively supported. So i suspect that one can reach audio nirvana on a mac even using usb audio. In any case, judging by what i am hearing right now, i don't think there is any room for improvment on the signal side of things. It's like having the sweet spot seat at the concert if you know what i mean.


----------



## gwitzel

I have ordered a F1 and I am looking forward to combine it with Audirvana -> Schiit Wyrd -> F1 -> Schiit Gungnit MB.
  
 I have almost no experience with audio DYI and I have a question: If I buy a aluminum case for the F1, do I have to connect it with the ground of the F1? Does that automatically happen via the nut of the RCA connector? Is there any point in surrounding the USB input connector with an inch of plastic to mitigate capacitive coupling as it is done for the Berkeley Alpha USB?
  
Thank you for interesting thread and the impression. I am super thrilled to compare the F1 with USB receiver in my DAC.


----------



## thisisvv

Is anyone able to get this working with Linux???I am on ubuntu and this does not see it? Any idea???
  
 V


----------



## b0bb

thisisvv said:


> Is anyone able to get this working with Linux???I am on ubuntu and this does not see it? Any idea???
> 
> V


 

 It works on Linux, check dmesg and /proc/asound/cards.
  
 Here is mine on tclinux running on the Raspberrypi.
  
 dmesg:
 [8644720.125607] usb 1-1.4: new high-speed USB device number 13 using dwc_otg
 [8644720.226570] usb 1-1.4: New USB device found, idVendor=20b1, idProduct=3086
 [8644720.226586] usb 1-1.4: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=3, SerialNumber=0
 [8644720.226598] usb 1-1.4: Product: USB Audio 2.0(F1)
 [8644720.226609] usb 1-1.4: Manufacturer: Singxer
  
 /proc/asound/cards:
  1 [U20F1          ]: USB-Audio - USB Audio 2.0(F1)
                       Singxer USB Audio 2.0(F1) at usb-3f980000.usb-1.4, high speed


----------



## FredA

gwitzel said:


> I have ordered a F1 and I am looking forward to combine it with Audirvana -> Schiit Wyrd -> F1 -> Schiit Gungnit MB.
> 
> I have almost no experience with audio DYI and I have a question: If I buy a aluminum case for the F1, do I have to connect it with the ground of the F1? Does that automatically happen via the nut of the RCA connector? Is there any point in [COLOR=3E3E3E]surrounding the [/COLOR]USB[COLOR=3E3E3E] input connector with an inch of plastic[/COLOR] to mitigate [COLOR=3E3E3E]capacitive coupling as it is done for the Berkeley Alpha USB?[/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=3E3E3E]Thank you for interesting thread and the impression. I am super thrilled to compare the F1 with USB receiver in my DAC.[/COLOR]




You must not connect the ground, in fact technically, it's not earth, it's neutral. 

I bought a case with which you just have to slide the board in. I drilled a hole on both ends. You have to measure the hole positions carefully, they are not centered. Start with a tiny hole, and then make it bigger gradually as needed (it is easier to get a clean and accurately posItioned hole this way using just a hand drill). Find a way to hold the aluminum covers in place while drilling the larger holes. I made the usb hole smooth using a rolled piece of sand paper.

I had to apply a small piece of electrical tape on a contact i figured could potentially touch the case on one side. There is only one such contact. The case i bought is a tight fit. I had to use a lever to prag it and to increase its height a bit on the rca connector end and push gently on the rca connector to be able to slide it in. 

Be gentle with the board, hold it by its sides and beware of static discharges.

So this forum from a 1-2 month ago to get proper case suggestions.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Here is an update on my newly acquired f-1 after over 120 hours: in a word, it's awesome.
> 
> A couple of notches better than the modded breeze, not even on i2s. It's smoother and fuller. Bass is more generous, to such an extent that it made my speakers sound boomy. I had to apply a trick to them (for gallo 3.1 owners, the 15ohms 5w or more resistor applied on the boomer's second coil).
> 
> I suspect that for mac owners, it is near perfection. I believe the apple computers have a huge advantage over windows-running pcs since the asynchronous usb2 playback is natively supported. So i suspect that one can reach audio nirvana on a mac even using usb audio. In any case, judging by what i am hearing right now, i don't think there is any room for improvment on the signal side of things. It's like having the sweet spot seat at the concert if you know what i mean.


 

 Glad to hear you are enjoying my little discovery...just another amazing audio device I blazed the trail on (despite the early ridicule from one industry insider about my enthusiasm for the F-1 - just check the Regen thread).
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







  
 Now you've only scratched the surface with what the F-1 is capable of
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - Here is the chain I'm running now in my office system:
  
PC>PPA V2 USB card (TeraDak X1 - Nichicon HW caps)>Forza Twin Copper Split USB cable>Startech LEX>BJC CAT6 UTP 550Mhz>Startech REX (with one Jitterbug - Breeze 24VDC LPS+DC iPurifer)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data only leg)>W4S Recovery(TeraDak LPS DC-30W+Cerious Graphene PC+ DC iPurifier)>Curious 200mm USB Link>iPur 2>F-1>Audience AU24 SE Digital SPDIF RCA>APL DAC
  
Power link to Recovery - this multi-stage AC line filtering and isolation makes a big difference in sound purity:
PS Audio AC Recep>CPCC Hi Current Top Gun>Richard Gray RGCP400 PRo>Art Audio PB 4X4 Pro (3 dedicated ones - one for each part of the chain: F-1 Chain, DAC, PC to isolate ps noise from the other components)>Cerious Tech Graphene Red>TeraDak DC-30W>DC iPur>Recovery.
  
The addition of the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso audio USB extender is another major leap in SQ.  But the addition of the iPur2 right before the F-1 and the Recovery (for impedance matching - fed by a LPS), Curious 200MM link - all these add to better SQ.  Same goes for using a top quality SPDIF digital cable.
  
Also the Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme Red on the PS might give you a pretty significant step up in SQ as well (a few doubters on this cable - and well cables in general - have been blown away by this amazing cable).
  
Interesting that the SDPIF from your F-1 is bettering the i2s from the modded Breeze Audio.  As I have argued here with said audio industry insider numerous times, as OP dismisses SPDIF as pure garbage - and i2s the ONLY viable high SQ solution, that while i2s is better, it's the USB DDC(and it's USB data and power chains that really make the difference).
  
Here is my most recent ranking and ratings:
Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
 
Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:
  
 REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/SR Element Copper digital cable                            253
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/Audience au24 se digital cable                              250 
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF reclocker)                                                 240
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord                                                                               220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB               170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord                                                        155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2                                                   145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen                                                               135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious                                                                                   135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                                                                      130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2                                                    125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                                                                          110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                                                                   109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                                                                      108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                                                                              100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                                                                 95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                                                                    92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                                                                             85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                                                                          81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                                                                    76
Gustard U12 stock                                                                                                   72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                                                                      65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                                                                      65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                                                                              60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                                                                         50
M2Tech Hiface                                                                                                         40
 
Note the two major leaps - one by adding the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB Extender into the chain.  Then the bigger leap away from USB completely to the REDNET3 Dante AES67 AOIP.  The Mutec 3+ did not help as an ext Word Clock to the RD3 - but after the RD3 as a SPDIF reclocker - excellent.
  
As I have rated (YMMV) the use of the ICRON/Startech makes a big difference.  But right now the REDNET AOIP is just in another league.
  
So you my have some further surprises in computer SQ coming down the road.


----------



## riffer

freda said:


> Another option, which is a direct replacement for the usb32 according to the description, made by audio-gd, both more expensive (...sorry):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Unless something has changed, this is not a direct replacement:

http://www.maartenvandruten.com/

Shows process in Master 7


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Glad to hear you are enjoying my little discovery...just another amazing audio device I blazed the trail on (despite the early ridicule from one industry insider about my enthusiasm for the F-1 - just check the Regen thread).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well I trust you ear but I guess I am gonna keep it "simple" for a while. Until I figure the next best move... I would like to add a dc jack and a switch between external and usb power, and buy a fancy psu perhaps. And I will add for sure an i2s out.
  
 You sure were right about this interface, though. Thanks.


----------



## FredA

riffer said:


> freda said:
> 
> 
> > Another option, which is a direct replacement for the usb32 according to the description, made by audio-gd, both more expensive (...sorry):
> ...





For the master-7, the firmware has to be changed. For the nfb-1, our new friend will have to ask Kingwa to find out.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Well I trust you ear but I guess I am gonna keep it "simple" for a while. Until I figure the next best move... I would like to add a dc jack and a switch between external and usb power, and buy a fancy psu perhaps. And I will add for sure an i2s out.
> 
> You sure were right about this interface, though. Thanks.


 

 De Nada
  
 I made some other tweeks with my PC Ethernet to the REDNET that have yielded some nice SQ benefits.
  
 This Antelope Ovenized OXCO Isochrone OCX clock will be here on Wed to reclock the RN3 - it also allows an 10Mhz Rubidium Atomic clock input - as does the Mutec MC-3+ USB.

  
  
  
 So I'm looking for one of these used:
  
 http://www.thinksrs.com/products/PERF10.htm
  
 Stanford Research uses a special cross cut crystal to achieve the most remarkable phase noise numbers - especially for an atomic clock:

*Rubidium Oscillator*Accuracy at shipment±0.05 ppb ( ±5 × 10-11)Aging (after 30 days)<5 × 10-11 (monthly)
 <5 × 10-10 (yearly)
 5 × 10-9 (20 years, typ.)Spurious harmonics<-60 dBcPhase noise (SSB)<-130 dBc/Hz (10 Hz)
 <-140 dBc/Hz (100 Hz)
 <-150 dBc/Hz (1 kHz)
 <-155 dBc/Hz (10 kHz)Short term stability
      (Allan variance)<2 × 10-11 (1 s)
 <1 × 10-11 (10 s)
 <2 × 10-12 (100 s)Warm-up time<6 minutes (time to lock)
  
 Looking at this new Cary tubed DAC that has a Wclock input.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/cary-audio-dac-200ts#tMxDe2uXd57doS4R.97
 So then the RN3, Mutec (as SPDIF reclocker) and the DAC would all be run on this ultra precise, ultra low phase noise Rubidium clock.
  
 This setup just could be the sota in computer audio today.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> De Nada
> 
> I made some other tweeks with my PC Ethernet to the REDNET that have yielded some nice SQ benefits.
> 
> ...


 
 At some point improving the clock must not make such a difference, depending on the SPDIF receiver used by a DAC. But again, if your ear tells you it's better, there must be a reason.
  
 Some SPIDIF receivers are less tolerant to phase noise than others. I have both the WM8805 and the DIR9001 on my dac. I tried both with the F-1. The sound is so similar i am not sure i could tell the difference in a blind test. I think they both do reclocking and both work better with a better signal at the input (expected). The DIR9001 works better with low quality signals(jittery) however and then I can easily hear the difference between the two.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> At some point improving the clock must not make such a difference, depending on the SPDIF receiver used by a DAC. But again, if your ear tells you it's better, there must be a reason.
> 
> Some SPIDIF receivers are less tolerant to phase noise than others. I have both the WM8805 and the DIR9001 on my dac. I tried both with the F-1. The sound is so similar i am not sure i could tell the difference in a blind test. I think they both do reclocking and both work better with a better signal at the input (expected). The DIR9001 works better with low quality signals(jittery) however and then I can easily hear the difference between the two.


 

 I used not be much of a believer in power supplies and AC noise filtering and isolation.  But after playing around with different LPS's, SMPS's, and AC filter gear - boy have I changed my mind.  What mattered for analog is not the same as for digital - esp computer audio.
  
 Really at the heart of the digital process - is the clocking.  And clocks have really advanced in the last few years - but these femto clocks are so sensitive to dirty power.  Whether from the power grid or the noise that audio gear PS's dump back into the local power system.  SMPS's are the worst! 
  
 Anyway I'll know more on Wednesday - at least as far as the Antelople is concerned.
  
 Here is a good review on the OCX:
 http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/antelope-isochrone-ocx-master-clock-word-clock
  
 On the SRS PERF10 Atomic Clock:
 http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/610-stanford-research-systems-perf10-rubidium-audio-clock#most-read-equipment-reviews


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I used not be much of a believer in power supplies and AC noise filtering and isolation.  But after playing around with different LPS's, SMPS's, and AC filter gear - boy have I changed my mind.  What mattered for analog is not the same as for digital - esp computer audio.
> 
> Really at the heart of the digital process - is the clocking.  And clocks have really advanced in the last few years - but these femto clocks are so sensitive to dirty power.  Whether from the power grid or the noise that audio gear PS's dump back into the local power system.  SMPS's are the worst!
> 
> ...




I agree you will improve the sound by reducing amplitude and phase noise since they combine to produce the overall timing error. At some point, the error will become inaudible. I wonder if that point can be reached with an spdif receiver, which uses a pll and has its limitations. That is why i insist on using the i2s input on my dac because then the timing is 100% determined by the ddc and phase noise can in theory be lower than what any spdif receiver can produce. But the clock's integrity is tough to preserve hence my concern with cable length. Keeping the clock in synch with data might also be a problem.

An external clock fed from the ddc to the dac can also work as long as you are to able to preserve the clock signal and have proper synching with the data. 

Someone will come up with an integrated solution to this problem someday.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I agree you will improve the sound by reducing amplitude and phase noise since they combine to produce the overall timing error. At some point, the error will become inaudible. I wonder if that point can be reached with an spdif receiver, which uses a pll and has its limitations. That is why i insist on using the i2s input on my dac because then the timing is 100% determined by the ddc and phase noise can in theory be lower than what any spdif receiver can produce. But the clock's integrity is tough to preserve hence my concern with cable length. Keeping the clock in synch with data might also be a problem.
> 
> An external clock fed from the ddc to the dac can also work as long as you are to able to preserve the clock signal and have proper synching with the data.
> 
> Someone will come up with an integrated solution to this problem someday.


 
  
 Well those are good points - you have to separate the clocking in the AOIP DDC from the reclocking of the SPDIF output signal sent to the DAC.
  
 There are several issues, phase noise probably being the most important.
 Here is a great white paper showing phase noise plots of a TXCO vs a OXCO:  A typical OXCO will have anywhere from 20dB to 40dB less phase noise at 10hz
 http://www.greenrayindustries.com/library/PhaseNoise08.pdf
  
 For the 24.576Mhz CCHD-957 shows -97dB at 10Hz.  The Vectron OX202 as an example at -115dB at 10 Hz.
  
 Then there is the clock accuracy - again here OXCO's excel TXCO's by a significant margin:
 Take the Crystek CCHD 957 for example: they vary from 20ppm to 50ppm
 versus a typical OXCO, say the Vectron OX202 at 2.6ppm
  
 Then there is drift in accuracy over time:
 CCHD 957: 3ppm 1st yr , then 1ppm each year thereafter.
 OX202: 0.2ppm 1st yr, then 2ppm after 20 Yrs!
  
 So it's not just the initial accuracy - but the maintaining of that accuracy over time.  On all counts the SRS PERF10 is orders on magnitude better on all these measures:
 PERF10:
 Phase noise at 10 Hz: -130dB
 Clock accuracy: .05ppb (that's ppb -parts per billion vs ppm - parts per million)
 Clock drift: 5ppb yearly, 50ppb after 20 years.
  
 So the question is  does an atomic clock (with ultra low phase noise - most have high phase noise) acting as a disciplining clock to the already ultra stable and low noise ovenized OXCO clock - improve the SQ?  I hope to find out one day soon.
  
 One advantage to SPDIF is the clock - can be reclocked with a high quality external clock.  I found the W4S Remedy pretty good at this (it uses the Crystek CCHD clocking), but the Mutec MC-3+ USB is in another league.  So here you have the ultra clean 1G clock technology sending a cleaner clock signal then can likely be arrived at (using the CCHD, NDK or just plain TXCO clocks) with i2s.  A very high quality SPDIF coax cable is absolutely necessary in the connection.  An expensive path - but one that has really paid off in extremely high sound quality.
  
 So the question would be - will the addition of disciplining SRS Rubidium clock to the Mutec clock enhance it's already excellent clocking?  Will that translate into better SQ?


----------



## rb2013

Good paper on SPDIF, DAC clocking and jitter:
 http://www.audiocraftersguild.com/AandE/npt.on.jitter2.htm
  


> 4. Popular S/PDIF receiver chips like the Yamaha YM3623B and Crystal CS8412 are NOT crystal controlled but rather recover the necessary clock from internal Phase Locked Loops (PLL) locked onto the incoming data stream. The simple two pin can crystals often seen directly attached to '3623's and '8412's are optional. The 3623 uses the crystal clock to quickly lock onto the S/PDIF signal. The 8412 uses the crystal clock to determine and display the sample rate and jitter level of the S/PDIF signal. *Both parts ignore the local crystal clock once locked onto the S/PDIF signal.** *


 


> 5. Better (i.e. more expensive) outboard DACs use additional tighter PLLs after the receiver chip to further cleanup the clock. *Generally there is a trade off between low jitter PLL and wide locking such that low jitter PLLs may result in a DAC being unable or slow to lock onto a high jitter S/PDIF *input requiring use of a low jitter Class 1 source as defined in the 'Red Book' spec. from Sony/Philips. This lack of universality and the fact that parts budget spent on low jitter PLLs (like individual crystals for each sample rate) reduces the parts budget for everything else (like filters, DACs, analog circuits, power supplies, and case) leads many designers to leave well enough alone and use the clock straight out of the receiver chip investing the saved resources elsewhere in the design or lowering the cost. *This allows the DACs master clock to be strictly a function of the source and interface.** *


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Good paper on SPDIF, DAC clocking and jitter:
> http://www.audiocraftersguild.com/AandE/npt.on.jitter2.htm


 
  
 In answer to your previous post, not this one:
  
 Interesting. I suppose there is still oscillators in those SPDIF receivers feeding the extracted clock, but they don't have to be so accurate because of an averaging effect.
  
 I think I have the high-quality pll part in my dac. It could be worthwhile turning it back on if i keep on using the spdif input.


----------



## FredA

By the way iFi is about to release an spdif reclocker/purifier. No need for an extra cable, it plug in directly into the dac or ddc.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Well those are good points - you have to separate the clocking in the AOIP DDC from the reclocking of the SPDIF output signal sent to the DAC.
> 
> There are several issues, phase noise probably being the most important.
> Here is a great white paper showing phase noise plots of a TXCO vs a OXCO:  A typical OXCO will have anywhere from 20dB to 40dB less phase noise at 10hz
> ...




Even better if connectd to the rednet it sounds so good that you can get rid of the mutec.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Glad to hear you are enjoying my little discovery...just another amazing audio device I blazed the trail on (despite the early ridicule from one industry insider about my enthusiasm for the F-1 - just check the Regen thread).:wink_face: :rolleyes:
> 
> Now you've only scratched the surface with what the F-1 is capable of - Here is the chain I'm running now in my office system:
> 
> ...





It would be interesting to hear the best f-1 setup reclocked by the mutec. Should be something.


----------



## ldp216

What are you impressions of the Pro3z ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/2910 )?


----------



## ldp216

classfolkphile said:


> I ordered one, it's on it's way, although I wish it had BNC. It apparently also comes with a battery enclosure to power it.
> 
> "Thank You for interesting in our product,
> Free AA battery box is shipped with the package
> ...


 
 What are you impressions of the Pro3z ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/2910 )?


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> So then the RN3, Mutec (as SPDIF reclocker) and the DAC would all be run on this ultra precise, ultra low phase noise Rubidium clock.
> 
> This setup just could be the sota in computer audio today.


 
  
 So where does the Antelope get hooked up in this chain? As an external clock to the RN3? Would you still need the Mutec then? Would the Antelope be an external clock for both?
  
 Sorry. A little fuzzy on the implementation


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> In answer to your previous post, not this one:
> 
> Interesting. I suppose there is still oscillators in those SPDIF receivers feeding the extracted clock, but they don't have to be so accurate because of an averaging effect.
> 
> I think I have the high-quality pll part in my dac. It could be worthwhile turning it back on if i keep on using the spdif input.


 
 They just initiate the clock locking then turn it over to the source clock.  In my case the Mutec MC-3 USB.  Hopefully further disciplined by the SRS PERF10 Rubidium.
  


freda said:


> By the way iFi is about to release an spdif reclocker/purifier. No need for an extra cable, it plug in directly into the dac or ddc.


 
 That will be interesting.  Will it accept a 10Mhz Rubidium disciplined Wclock feed?
  


freda said:


> Even better if connectd to the rednet it sounds so good that you can get rid of the mutec.


 
 Well the Mutec is a pretty darn good SPDIF source clock - and will accept a 10Mhz atomic clock feed.


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> So where does the Antelope get hooked up in this chain? As an external clock to the RN3? Would you still need the Mutec then? Would the Antelope be an external clock for both?
> 
> Sorry. A little fuzzy on the implementation


 

 Yes the Antelope OXCO OCX will be the Wclock input (set as ext clock in the RN control), the Mutec the post RN SPDIF reclocker.
  
 What's cool is both can accept the atomic SRS PERF10 discipline 10Mhz clock.  So a double kill shot.
  
 Sorry folks this really is at the very cutting edge of computer audio...and relatively expensive.


----------



## classfolkphile

ldp216 said:


> What are you impressions of the Pro3z ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/2910 )?


 

 Hasn't arrived yet: hopefully this week.


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Anyway I'll know more on Wednesday - at least as far as the Antelope is concerned.


 
  
 Ok. The suspense is killing me. Don't make me beg!
  
 Hopefully you are listening to music that has surpassed your wildest dreams


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Ok. The suspense is killing me. Don't make me beg!
> 
> Hopefully you are listening to music that has surpassed your wildest dreams


 
 OK hooked up the OCX today - after giving the 'oven' a half hour to fully heat and stabilize (the little blue 'good to go' light actually came on in like 5 minutes) - I sat down to do a fairly extensive listening A/B versus the internal clock.

 The result?  Outstanding!  The SQ improved in every way!  Most immediately noticeable even deeper bass then with the internal clock.  Another leap in detail retrieval - now the detail before put my Uber USB chain to shame (and it was stellar) - this is even more surprising.  It does take a little getting used to - the ear/mind starts to 'trip out'.  I mean a semi-hypnotic trace state within minutes of listening, the FLOW factor just carries you away.  It takes conscious effort to remain in audiophile critic mode, trying to assess objectively the SQ changes.
  
 Thank god this level of audio is NOT in my car!
  
 I think after a few weeks of listening this will lose it's immediate effect.
  
 That was with the Antelope.  And now I am really curious as to what a well made Rubidium clock would do.
  
 The second little tweek to arrive today was a Synergistic Research Galileo MPC.  This unit energizes the SR Element Digital cable shielding (and has two leads so the second went on a SR Ref X2 Power cable that I have feeding my amp).  Another profound SQ improvement, not as dramatic as the OCX, but definitely welcome.  More bass as well - my Maggie 1.6QR are now producing chest vibrating levels of perfectly tuned bass.  Listened to David Gray 'Please Forgive Me' - with huge bass drops that were stunning.  Not since I had my Talon Firebirds have I heard bass like this from my system.  What's cool is you can A/B live by plugging in the std MPC and the Galileo - and you can hear the SQ change immediately. It's the darndest thing - how this could have such an effect.
  
 I immediately noticed greater image depth and inner lit quality.
  
 It'll take some time to sort out the details on the SQ changes - I'll let the system play 24/7 for a week before doing any further posting.  I would say both of these are keepers for sure.
  
 Also I'm using a BJC coax digtial cable to connect the OCX to the RN3.  I have this much better Oyaide Silver BNC digital cable coming from Japan to try.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/152131833873?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 I guess to sum it up -


----------



## rb2013

I should also note, the OCX made such a significant SQ change, I went back through all the RN3 setting. Best SQ setting DVS ASIO buffer to 32, 32 bit, 1ms. In the RN controler the RN3 set to 32bits.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> OK hooked up the OCX today - after giving the 'oven' a half hour to fully heat and stabilize (the little blue 'good to go' light actually came on in like 5 minutes) - I sat down to do a fairly extensive listening A/B versus the internal clock.
> 
> 
> The result?  Outstanding!  The SQ improved in every way!  Most immediately noticeable even deeper bass then with the internal clock.  Another leap in detail retrieval - now the detail before put my Uber USB chain to shame (and it was stellar) - this is even more surprising.  It does take a little getting used to - the ear/mind starts to 'trip out'.  I mean a semi-hypnotic trace state within minutes of listening, the FLOW factor just carries you away.  It takes conscious effort to remain in audiophile critic mode, trying to assess objectively the SQ changes.
> ...




Hi Rob

What was your setup with the Antelope test?
Antelope just on RN3 as Word Clock or simultaneously also on Mutec3+USB as Word Clock?
Was the Mutec3+USB still in the chain or had you taken it out?

Cheers


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> I should also note, the OCX made such a significant SQ change, I went back through all the RN3 setting. Best SQ setting DVS ASIO buffer to 32, 32 bit, 1ms. In the RN controler the RN3 set to 32bits.


 
 This is great news. I am just getting used to the new sound of my D16/Mutec combo and like you said have my own version of getting lost in the movement of the music. I have never experience such good localization to the effect of sensing movement in orchestral pieces as the theme gets passed between different sections of the orchestra or jazz combo.
  
 My main problem right now is trying to get two D16's to coexist in my system. My Plan A was to remove one PC and then network the two D16's to the remaining PC running DVS. My issue is that I have a connection from my office to the basement system that passes through two MOCA adapters that Dante does not like. Running cat6 does not seem like an option right now. This leaves me with Plan B which is two PC's, each connected to it's own D16 and DAC. While this should work I am having trouble getting it to do so. It seems to require me to choose one as master depending upon which system I want to listen to. This could work for now but I notice that if I set one to master then the other system does not like it and the DAC loses sync and in my case the Yggy starts clicking as it has relays internally that are trying to lock the signal. I even tried putting in a second NIC card in each PC however I could not get it to work properly and still access the PC via RDP. Since I use JRemote also I really need remote access to both headless PC's. I am probably missing something simple...
  
 What I would like to do now is convince both systems to ignore each other. I will probably call Audinate today to get some ideas.
  
 Maybe I will return the second D16 and get the Antelope for now until I can pull a real ethernet cable


----------



## ccschua

Long ago I brought up about Antelope OCX but was given the cold shoulder. thanks for jumping in to try this. My friend who tried this ended up with a dCS Vivaldi.


----------



## Iving

ccschua said:


> Long ago I bring up about Antelope OCX but was given the cold shower. thanks for jumping in to try this. My friend who tried this ended up with a dCS Vivaldi.


 
  
 That dCS Vivaldi is a very sexy looking beast, but "cold shower" is fitting on another type of Forum. It is possible to get the "cold shoulder" here at Head-Fi, but not half as probable as at CA.


----------



## wushuliu

ccschua said:


> Long ago I bring up about Antelope OCX but was given the cold shower. thanks for jumping in to try this. My friend who tried this ended up with a dCS Vivaldi.




yeah doing some research revealed a lot on pushback from makes no difference crowd.

there are rubidium clocks on eBay for a couple hundred bucks. hmm...

also master clocks like black lion audio mk2 and 3.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> What was your setup with the Antelope test?
> Antelope just on RN3 as Word Clock or simultaneously also on Mutec3+USB as Word Clock?
> ...


 
 Yes both - Mutec for SPDIF reclocking (the OCX won't do that), the OCX as Wclock.  OCX set to 192k.
  


ccschua said:


> Long ago I bring up about Antelope OCX but was given the cold shower. thanks for jumping in to try this. My friend who tried this ended up with a dCS Vivaldi.


 
 Well the OCX as WClock would not be of any use with the USB DDC's like the F-1.  Even the SU-1 is Wclock out only - no input.  Only a very small set of DAC's in the consumer high end market can accept a WClock input - DCS is one of the them.  Same as for the Esoteric.  This new tubed DAC from Cary is in the sane price range (sub-$10K) the 200ts - it has a WClock input.  It is a common feature in the Pro Audio DAC market.  The DCS Vivaldi master clock it like $14,000.  Silly price.  The SRS PERF10 probably has lower phase noise. 
  
 BTW in the Antelope materials I recieved is a technical piece on the OCX - quoting sub 1ppm stability.  Excellent even for a OXCO.  25 to 50 time more stable then a Crystek CCHD.
  


> Starting with an oven stabilized, 3rd overtone, varactor tuned, SC-cut crystal oscillator, the PERF10 offers both the accuracy and stability associated with rubidium clocks and unmatched jitter performance - 30 dB better phase noise at 10 Hz off carrier than a competing "Swiss-made" rubidium clock.


 
 The SRS PERF10 is 'only' $3500.
  
  


iving said:


> That dCS Vivaldi is a very sexy looking beast, but "cold shower" is fitting on another type of Forum. It is possible to get the "cold shoulder" here at Head-Fi, but not half as probable as at CA.


 
 Sexy it is!  Better be for that kind of money.  The Esoteric G01 is very nice as well.  See my post below


----------



## rb2013

The Esoteric G01 clock is a top performer and one is for sale as a 'demo' out of Germany for $7400
  
 http://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/CD-Player-Recorder/Esoteric/G-01/MasterClock/156324
  
 But I found this post: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/esoteric-g-02-clock-your-thoughts


> I have a K-01X for which I'm also trying to rationalize external clock options. The G-01 and G-02 are redoubtable, but at those price premiums it is worth considering solutions based on scientific instruments or pro audio.
> 
> From a web surf it seems that the G-01 uses a Stanford Research Systems PRS-10 10 Mhz rubidium core. The G-02 has a cheaper Spectratime LCR-900 core. If your transport/DAC can't directly accept a 10mHz sine wave as a master clock, you would need to add a distribution amplifier that outputs Word Clock in multiples of 44.1kHz and 48kHz. Respected examples included Grimm CC1 and Antelope Trinity or OCX.
> 
> ...


 
 As I have posted before the SRS FS725 is $2695


----------



## rb2013

wushuliu said:


> yeah doing some research revealed a lot on pushback from makes no difference crowd.
> 
> there are rubidium clocks on eBay for a couple hundred bucks. hmm...
> 
> also master clocks like black lion audio mk2 and 3.


 

 Part of my reaction was due to trying the Mutec MC-3+ USB as a WClock with the RN3 - it actually slightly detracted from the SQ.
  
 The Antelope OCX in my system  - in another league. 

 Those Rubidium clocks you quote are for bare units w/o ps.  Becareful there are many non-audio (most of these are GPS pulls) Rubidium clocks have extremely high phase noise.
  
 As I have posted before there is this one from Ebay that looks interesting - though it's a 50 ohm unit - it has a nice LPS power supply:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-000M-Ultra-Precision-Low-Noise-RB-Word-Rubidium-Atomic-Clock-Generator-HIFI-/281937108477?hash=item41a4c2ddfd:g:4UgAAOSwa-dWnPzg


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Even the SU-1 is Wclock out only - no input.


 
  
 So... What ever happened to the SU-1?
  
 Has anyone received one yet? Or did our REDnet devices eclipse it?


----------



## wushuliu

mourip said:


> So... What ever happened to the SU-1?
> 
> Has anyone received one yet? Or did our REDnet devices eclipse it?


 

 Energy goes where rb's attention flows...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 FYI - At Audiocircle I did hear from a member who found the Pro3z to be a little better than the F1...


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> So... What ever happened to the SU-1?
> 
> Has anyone received one yet? Or did our REDnet devices eclipse it?


 

 SQ wise they should be very close - edge maybe to the SU-1 if using the i2s output, edge to the F-1 on coax and fine LPS.
  
 The SU-1 is a very nice turnkey solution - with a clever and well thought out i2s configuration scheme - hats off to Singxer.
  
 I'm listening to my F-1 right now in my office (with the Uber USB chain) - it sounds great.  And I think for many it would be more then enough.  But in my main room - which is more resolving - the Rednet AOIP is tough to beat.
  
 Tried switching the Cerious Tech Graphene power chord (I have three in the main system - one on the Mutec, One on my DAC and now one on the OCX) - from the RN to the OCX and it made an improvement.
  
 Makes sense since the RN is now externally clocked.
  
 This power chord has improved every piece of gear I have ever plugged it into.
  
 PS Dante Control 3.1 is out now - Wifi compatible.
 https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-controller


----------



## stigb

Yes, I recived my SU-1. It is connected to my PS Audio DirectStream Dac vi I2S, Best sound yet from my system. I also have the StarTech 4 Port USB 2.0 Extender over Gigabit (and it's ISO + external LPS).
  
 Forget about REDnet, it can't do I2S. It's history. SU-1 is the future. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 It got 1640 points on rb2013's audio quality scale.


----------



## Muziqboy

rb2013 said:


> OK hooked up the OCX today - after giving the 'oven' a half hour to fully heat and stabilize (the little blue 'good to go' light actually came on in like 5 minutes) - I sat down to do a fairly extensive listening A/B versus the internal clock.
> 
> The result?  Outstanding!  The SQ improved in every way!  Most immediately noticeable even deeper bass then with the internal clock.  Another leap in detail retrieval - now the detail before put my Uber USB chain to shame (and it was stellar) - this is even more surprising.  It does take a little getting used to - the ear/mind starts to 'trip out'.  I mean a semi-hypnotic trace state within minutes of listening, the FLOW factor just carries you away.  It takes conscious effort to remain in audiophile critic mode, trying to assess objectively the SQ changes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad to hear that the Antelope OCX brought another leap in SQ on your set-up Rob!
 I surely would like to hear your results later on if you do decide to add a Rubidium clock.
  
 Lately, I was also thinking of adding an external Master clock in the form of the Grimm Audio CC1 but it is almost like $3K so I might have to wait a while before I do pull the trigger.
 Man, this hobby is getting ridiculously expensive! lol
 But SQ wise, it is very gratifying.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## classfolkphile

So I received the Dixio Pro 3Z today. I have not been able to get it to work.
  
 I’ve used two different Apple computers with Yosemite (10.10.3) and El Capitan (10.11.4) respectively, with several different USB ports. Used with and without Uptone Audio Regen in between the computers and Dixio. Used three different USB cables. Used Coaxial and Optical outputs on Dixio. Used with USB power and the included Battery Pack. Hooked it up before and after turning computers on. Restarted computers several times.
  
 In no cases has Dixio appeared in Sound (under System Preferences) or Audio Midi Setup (under Utilities) or in a USB tree (under System Report): nor has it passed through any sound to my EE DAC Plus. My AQ Dragonfly Red shows up everywhere and works immediately when plugged into either computer with or without the Regen.
  
 Interestingly, the signal light on my EE DAC Plus has shown up only when using USB power to the Dixio, not when using the accompanying battery pack. But no sound.
  
 I've sent an email to DIYinHK. Anyone with any ideas?


----------



## rb2013

stigb said:


> Yes, I recived my SU-1. It is connected to my PS Audio DirectStream Dac vi I2S, Best sound yet from my system. I also have the StarTech 4 Port USB 2.0 Extender over Gigabit (and it's ISO + external LPS).
> 
> Forget about REDnet, it can't do I2S. It's history. SU-1 is the future.
> 
> ...


 

 Well that is great to here - Singxer makes some great stuff.
  
 Now thinking about just going to a Cesium clock for the big Red box - they only start at $35k


----------



## rb2013

muziqboy said:


> Glad to hear that the Antelope OCX brought another leap in SQ on your set-up Rob!
> I surely would like to hear your results later on if you do decide to add a Rubidium clock.
> 
> Lately, I was also thinking of adding an external Master clock in the form of the Grimm Audio CC1 but it is almost like $3K so I might have to wait a while before I do pull the trigger.
> ...


 

 The Gimm is very good - so is the newest version of the OCX - the OCX HD with Antelope's 4th Gen anti-jitter technology.  But they are like $1500.
  
 I pd less the $700 for an almost new OCX - so it was worth it.  But you are right not cheap - but for 'by the hour entertainment' - not so bad.
  
 Thinking of trying a OCX 10Mhz clock on the Mutec.
 Like this one:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GPS-Disciplined-Oscillator-Clock-GPSDO-10M-Output-Sinusoidal-Wave/251802969291?_trk


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> The Gimm is very good - so is the newest version of the OCX - the OCX HD with Antelope's 4th Gen anti-jitter technology.  But they are like $1500.
> 
> I pd less the $700 for an almost new OCX - so it was worth it.  But you are right not cheap - but for 'by the hour entertainment' - not so bad.
> 
> ...




Since you established that Rednet does improve with an external Word clock, I bit the bullet and ordered a Grimm CC1. First because it is recognised as the best performing master clock and second because it is a 'local' brand worthy of my support.
Should be here mid to end of next week.


----------



## sealykojac

classfolkphile said:


> I've sent an email to DIYinHK. Anyone with any ideas?


 
  
 My Aune dac will only be recognized on my Mac if its run through a USB hub. If I don't have a hub connected the computer never sees the device.


----------



## classfolkphile

sealykojac said:


> My Aune dac will only be recognized on my Mac if its run through a USB hub. If I don't have a hub connected the computer never sees the device.


 

 Thanks. Weird. But, as I understand it, the Uptone Regen has a USB hub built in, does it not?


----------



## kazsud

rb2013 said:


> SQ wise they should be very close - edge maybe to the SU-1 if using the i2s output, edge to the F-1 on coax and fine LPS.
> 
> The SU-1 is a very nice turnkey solution - with a clever and well thought out i2s configuration scheme - hats off to Singxer.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Is the i2s output on the Su-1 compatible w/ the PS Audio i2s?


----------



## bimmer100

kazsud said:


> Is the i2s output on the Su-1 compatible w/ the PS Audio i2s?



Yes, it is compatible with all HDMI i2s since it has dip switches to change the pin out types


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Since you established that Rednet does improve with an external Word clock, I bit the bullet and ordered a Grimm CC1. First because it is recognised as the best performing master clock and second because it is a 'local' brand worthy of my support.
> Should be here mid to end of next week.


 

 Sweet!  $2600 expensive.  Invest in a decent BNC cable.  Will be interested to see how it works for you.
  
 A little comment 'Rightness' and 'Micro-Synergies'.  Last night the Galileo MPC failed - so a step back.  It was good opportunity to try the Audience au24se coax  - Nice!  There is something special going on - the sound just has a term I'll coin as 'Rightness'. 
  
 I switched back to 24 bit in the DVS and RNC - and that hit the mark.
  
 So I'll be selling the SR Element digital cable.  I guess as you get you SQ to a higher and higher level - getting the fine tuning just right goes a long way to listening happiness.  I'm there right now.


----------



## rb2013

kazsud said:


> Is the i2s output on the Su-1 compatible w/ the PS Audio i2s?


 

 I don't have a SU-1 - contact Singxer for the proper settings.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Sweet!  $2600 expensive.  Invest in a decent BNC cable.  Will be interested to see how it works for you.
> 
> A little comment 'Rightness' and 'Micro-Synergies'.  Last night the Galileo MPC failed - so a step back.  It was good opportunity to try the Audience au24se coax  - Nice!  There is something special going on - the sound just has a term I'll coin as 'Rightness'.
> 
> ...


 
 In my current setup 32/32 still beats 24/24. Will try all options again with the master clock.
 Decent BNC's are on their way too.


----------



## stigb

kazsud said:


> Is the i2s output on the Su-1 compatible w/ the PS Audio i2s?


 
 Yes. The I2S output from the SU-1 works with my PS Audio DirectStream Dac. Did not have to change any settings.


----------



## Albrecht

> It was good opportunity to try the Audience au24se coax  - Nice


 
  
  
 But I just bought the Statement!! Glad that the Audience sounds great. Although I'm not ready for a $790 cable, - good to know that it's better.
  
 Thanks for all your help & info.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> But I just bought the Statement!! Glad that the Audience sounds great. Although I'm not ready for a $790 cable, - good to know that it's better.
> 
> Thanks for all your help & info.
> 
> Cheers,


Î bought the Audience for $400 on audiogon, try to see if you can find one used. The statement is very good too.


----------



## ccschua

I wonder the non usb Mutec 3+ will help after the F-1 ?


----------



## FredA

ccschua said:


> I wonder the non usb Mutec 3+ will help after the F-1 ?




Could equal the rednet, would be my guess.


----------



## jabbr

freda said:


> Could equal the rednet, would by my guess.




Nope, it doesn't.


----------



## ccschua

REDNET d16 without the mutec 3+ is not complete right ? with mutec 3+USB or the mutec 3+, it is not critical for rednet right ?


----------



## motberg

Some info on the PS Audio LANRover is available here:
 http://www.psaudio.com/products/lanrover-usb-transporter/#tab-features
  
 Seems a pretty interesting device that could help a wide range of users.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I wonder the non usb Mutec 3+ will help after the F-1 ?


 
 My experience is yes - Mutec as SPDIF reclocker.  I have the better clocking USB version (this we covered extensively a few month back here on the clocking difference).
  


freda said:


> Could equal the rednet, would by my guess.


 
 Well my friend I tried it - and with the better Mutec MC-3+ USB clock.
  
 Not by a mile - no guess - but my extensive direct listening experience...and that was with my uber USB chain feeding the F-1
  
PC>PPA V2 USB card (TeraDak X1 - Nichicon HW caps)>Forza Twin Copper Split USB cable>Startech LEX>BJC CAT6 UTP 550Mhz>Startech REX (with one Jitterbug - Breeze 24VDC LPS+DC iPurifer)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data only leg)>W4S Recovery(TeraDak LPS DC-30W+Cerious Graphene PC+ DC iPurifier)>Curious 200mm USB Link>iPur 2>F-1>Audience AU24 SE Digital SPDIF RCA>APL DAC


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> REDNET d16 without the mutec 3+ is not complete right ? with mutec 3+USB or the mutec 3+, it is not critical for rednet right ?


 

 Well what do you mean by 'complete'?  The RN is better with the Mutec as a SPDIF reclocker - should be the same for the AES.  But it didn't help as a Wclock.
  
 I would say just like the F-1 with or without the Startech - it's fine without and at a whole new level with.
  
 For me the absolute killer set-up is the RN3 with Mutec as SPDIF reclocker (and Audience au24 se digital cable), Antelope OCX as WClock.
  
 I would say for the same money the RN3 plus the Mutec or the OCX - would be better SQ - then just the RNd16.


----------



## enginedr

Hello every one I just joined Head Fi . I have been reading rb2013 s posts for a while now and purchased many devices on his findings . With changes moving at a rapid pace
 and having a DIXO p3a and a Uptone REGEN powered by there own IFI USB power supply . I decided to jump on the Red Net 3 band wagon all I can say wow
 This morning I added a Antelope Live clock to the Red Net 3 as a world clock I am floored by the SQ . All I can say is thank you to Rob for all his great footwork on exposing
 us to killer SQ . I take my hat off to you great work


----------



## mourip

enginedr said:


> I take my hat off to you great work


 
  
 +1


----------



## mourip

enginedr said:


> Hello every one I just joined Head Fi . I have been reading rb2013 s posts for a while now and purchased many devices on his findings . With changes moving at a rapid pace
> and having a DIXO p3a and a Uptone REGEN powered by there own IFI USB power supply . I decided to jump on the Red Net 3 band wagon all I can say wow
> This morning I added a Antelope Live clock to the Red Net 3 as a world clock I am floored by the SQ . All I can say is thank you to Rob for all his great footwork on exposing
> us to killer SQ . I take my hat off to you great work


 
  
  
 What brand of cable are you using to connect your Antelope and what kind of connector?


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Also I'm using a BJC coax digtial cable to connect the OCX to the RN3.  I have this much better Oyaide Silver BNC digital cable coming from Japan to try.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/152131833873?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> I guess to sum it up -


 
  
 Did you ever receive the Oyaide BNC cable? Like it?


----------



## enginedr

I am using just cheap world clock cables 18 inches long from the Live Clock into and out of the RN3
 one is a Canare the other   one from Vintage audio king house brand .
 Like us all waiting on Robs review


----------



## rb2013

enginedr said:


> Hello every one I just joined Head Fi . I have been reading rb2013 s posts for a while now and purchased many devices on his findings . With changes moving at a rapid pace
> and having a DIXO p3a and a Uptone REGEN powered by there own IFI USB power supply . I decided to jump on the Red Net 3 band wagon all I can say wow
> This morning I added a Antelope Live clock to the Red Net 3 as a world clock I am floored by the SQ . All I can say is thank you to Rob for all his great footwork on exposing
> us to killer SQ . I take my hat off to you great work


 

 Your comment are much appreciated!  Yes this really is extrodinary SQ - adding a Mutec MC-3+USB or even better a Antelope AD-DA Converter would likely raise the SQ to another level. http://www.sweetwater.com/c796--Antelope_Audio--AD_DA_Converters
  
 Thanks for the tip-off on the Live clock - a cheaper solution then the OCX HD or Trinity - but appears to use the same technology.
  
 If I see one come up used - I might give it a try.  The Gen4 anti-jitter is said to be a step up from the OCX Gen3.  They quote .02ppm stability!
  
 I paid $690 for the OCX and I see the Live clocks sell for $900-$1000.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

mourip said:


> Did you ever receive the Oyaide BNC cable? Like it?


 

 Not yet - they just shipped it from Japan.
  
 Let me tell you folks - try a little cable rolling on the SPDIF/AES Front - they do make a difference.
  
 Also the Power Cords for these clock units - AC Line filtering and isolation as well.
  
 Just put the OCX on a separate PB4X4PRo AC line filter and isolator (be sure it has the APF logo on the front)- from the Mutec/RN.  Made a difference.
  
 They're only $80 - I now have 4 separate ones.  The down side on all the RN, Mutec, Antelope - the SMPS's they use.  They can feed noise back into the local AC - that noise can effect these precision femto clocks.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> My experience is yes - Mutec as SPDIF reclocker.  I have the better clocking USB version (this we covered extensively a few month back here on the clocking difference).
> 
> Well my friend I tried it - and with the better Mutec MC-3+ USB clock.
> 
> ...




Well i believe you but i am rather surprised. It means that the rednet has a much better spdif out. The one on the f-1 is already quite something. Too bad. 

Looking forward to trying i2s out with the f-1. By the way, my f-1 sounds even better now. Less bass, basically (there was a bit too much). The rest is about the same. Those Crysteks takes more than 300 hours to settle completely. It's the second set i burn in the last 6 month, i even can say that they have a signature since my modded breeze has the same one. 

All that said,, the performance of spdif is dependent upon the receiver so one might reach the full potential of its dac with a lesser setup, given a better receiver.


----------



## FredA

enginedr said:


> Hello every one I just joined Head Fi . I have been reading rb2013 s posts for a while now and purchased many devices on his findings . With changes moving at a rapid pace
> and having a DIXO p3a and a Uptone REGEN powered by there own IFI USB power supply . I decided to jump on the Red Net 3 band wagon all I can say wow
> This morning I added a Antelope Live clock to the Red Net 3 as a world clock I am floored by the SQ . All I can say is thank you to Rob for all his great footwork on exposing
> us to killer SQ . I take my hat off to you great work




With feedback like this and Robert's, i am saying to myself, what is 2-3 grands for the rednet and the live clock? God help me. Good thing i want to stick to i2s for now. 

The thing is, though, i have been listening to the bnc input of my m-7 for the last few weeks and it's excellent. It's limited to 96k however. I don't like the other receiver (input) as much, but it does 192k. I thought i heard no difference at first with the f-1 but i hear it. The dir9001 is more neutral than the wm8805, as far as their implementation on the m-7 of course. And the i2s is even more neutral.

I looked at ways to add an external clock input to my dac last night. No solution yet but i have not spent much time on it.


----------



## FredA

Just got an idea: how about chaining two-three rather cheap but efficient reclockers. Assuming each one filters a bit more jitter out, it could lead to impressive performances. 

That is a bit of what we have been doing in this thread, chaining devices with most of the times a performance enhancement. I would use small externally powered devices that can be joined together with bnc to bnc (or rca) couplers to save on costs. 

The only thing is, the noise level would have to be ultra-low in the clock signal for it to work. Maybe something to try with the new iFi reclocker... Or the high-end version: rednet to mutec reclocker to a second mutec reclocker fed all by an external clock!


----------



## stigb

motberg said:


> Some info on the PS Audio LANRover is available here:
> http://www.psaudio.com/products/lanrover-usb-transporter/#tab-features
> 
> Seems a pretty interesting device that could help a wide range of users.


 
 My experince with the StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN and the Singxer SU-1 is that this solution probably will exceed the LanRover solution. It will probably cost more but you get the I2S output to your Dac.


----------



## somestranger26

stigb said:


> My experince with the StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN and the Singxer SU-1 is that this solution probably will exceed the LanRover solution. It will probably cost more but you get the I2S output to your Dac.


 
 The LANRover is not a USB-SPDIF converter. It's the audiophile equivalent of the Startech LAN so you can use it with SU1.
  


rb2013 said:


> Your comment are much appreciated!  Yes this really is extrodinary SQ - adding a Mutec MC-3+USB or even better a Antelope AD-DA Converter would likely raise the SQ to another level. http://www.sweetwater.com/c796--Antelope_Audio--AD_DA_Converters


 
 Why would an AD-DA converter raise SQ?


----------



## classfolkphile

So has anyone used the Singxer SU-1 with an Apple computer using Yosemite or El Capitan?
  
 I have not been able to get the Dixio I was sent to connect on two different Apples, with Yosemite (10.10.3) or El Capitan (10.11.4 or 10.11.5). DIYinHK sent me a screen shot with the Pro 3Z showing up in OSX 10.9.3.
  
 The battery pack (which they said was a free extra and not QC'd) is definitely inoperable (the optical port doesn't light up). The optical port lights up via USB power but, again, the unit does not show up on either computer, where other gear does. So it's going back. 
  
 I might have to read the Rednet posts more carefully.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Just got an idea: how about chaining two-three rather cheap but efficient reclockers. Assuming each one filters a bit more jitter out, it could lead to impressive performances.
> 
> That is a bit of what we have been doing in this thread, chaining devices with most of the times a performance enhancement. I would use small externally powered devices that can be joined together with bnc to bnc (or rca) couplers to save on costs.
> 
> The only thing is, the noise level would have to be ultra-low in the clock signal for it to work. Maybe something to try with the new iFi reclocker... Or the high-end version: rednet to mutec reclocker to a second mutec reclocker fed all by an external clock!


 

 Some have tried that with the non-USB Mutec3's to good effect.  But stated there is a diminishing return - and that 3 non-USB Mutecs equaled one of the USB Mutecs.
  
 I suppose that 3 Mutec MC-3+ USB would be better then one - but that's $3K worth of SPDIF reclocking.
  
 I hear the Antelope AD/DA is better then the Mutec.  How about three of those - they're only $2500 a piece
  
 This can get into silly money land real fast - I could see $20k-$30k just for a computer source - BEFORE the DAC.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> The LANRover is not a USB-SPDIF converter. It's the audiophile equivalent of the Startech LAN so you can use it with SU1.
> 
> Why would an AD-DA converter raise SQ?


 

 It's just the Antelope version that can be used for SPDIF re-clocking - I believe their ovenized clocking with JetPLL jitter reduction is better then the Mutec use of a 1G TXCO with extreme upsampling.
  
 The OCX and Live Clock do not do SPDIF reclocking.
  
 Just noticed the Live Clock has DC input - so a LPS could be used, another plus


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> It's just the Antelope version that can be used for SPDIF re-clocking -....


 
 The Grimm CC1 can reclock AES/EBU as well.


----------



## stigb

somestranger26 said:


> The LANRover is not a USB-SPDIF converter. It's the audiophile equivalent of the Startech LAN so you can use it with SU1.
> 
> Why would an AD-DA converter raise SQ?


 
 The question is what does the LanRover do so much better than the StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN connected to the SU-1? As you say with the LanRover you don't get SPDIF or I2S.
 If USB is allright for you, I would recommend the LanRover over the "StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN" because of PS Audios refinement of the "StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN".


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Some have tried that with the non-USB Mutec3's to good effect.  But stated there is a diminishing return - and that 3 non-USB Mutecs equaled one of the USB Mutecs.
> 
> I suppose that 3 Mutec MC-3+ USB would be better then one - but that's $3K worth of SPDIF reclocking.
> 
> ...




Yeah, i would expect each successive step to add diminishing improvments in absolute terms. The most efficient stage is the asynchrnous one, it's the only that is able to remove low-frequency phase noise and thus improve bass response. Reminds me of the squeezebox days where these little boxes were the only cheap asynch solution available. They have been bested by cheap usb solutions eventually. And now it seems we may go back to ethernet solution soon. Someone will packgage a basic audio over internet device with proper power supply, isolation and clocking at some point for sure. A one box solution with galvanic isolation of the ethernet connection.


----------



## enginedr

That's one reason I decided on the Live clock the small form factor was the other .
 Red Net 3 takes up much room in my limited shelf space .
 The power supply is 18 volts DC the unit says 6 watts max
 I am happy with my Metrum Octave DAC
 The interface has much to do with the SQ more then most people think .


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> The Grimm CC1 can reclock AES/EBU as well.


 

 Nice!  Do you have any info on the clocking they use?  G1 PLL? OXCO?


----------



## rb2013

stigb said:


> The question is what does the LanRover do so much better than the StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN connected to the SU-1? As you say with the LanRover you don't get SPDIF or I2S.
> If USB is allright for you, I would recommend the LanRover over the "StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN" because of PS Audios refinement of the "StarTech.com 4 Port USB 2.0 over LAN".


 

 One difference I see the LEX does not need power from the +5VDC USB.  But that's not a big deal - my Startech LEX is powered by a LPS Teradak X1


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Yeah, i would expect each successive step to add diminishing improvments in absolute terms. The most efficient stage is the asynchrnous one, it's the only that is able to remove low-frequency phase noise and thus improve bass response. Reminds me of the squeezebox days where these little boxes were the only cheap asynch solution available. They have been bested by cheap usb solutions eventually. And now it seems we may go back to ethernet solution soon. Someone will packgage a basic audio over internet device with proper power supply, isolation and clocking at some point for sure. A one box solution with galvanic isolation of the ethernet connection.


 

 Ethernet is GI intrinstically  - but I did find a very slight improvement with the FMC ethernet in between - esp when I added LPS to feed both ends
  
 Yes what all this blogging is all about - to get these freaking box makers to wake up - to the end user demands.


----------



## rb2013

enginedr said:


> That's one reason I decided on the Live clock the small form factor was the other .
> Red Net 3 takes up much room in my limited shelf space .
> The power supply is 18 volts DC the unit says 6 watts max
> I am happy with my Metrum Octave DAC
> The interface has much to do with the SQ more then most people think .


 

 Agreed.  What the amperage draw at 18 VDC?  May be in the range of a Teradak DC-30W


----------



## enginedr

Its 6 watts max draw should be less then a 1/2 amp . there are some nice r-core ones on E-Bay I am looking at rated @ 18v 2.5 amps 
 I have too many things burning in now . Just had my VTL -100 tube   amps modified and up dated to use 2 KT 120 tubes ea.
 I use Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers  Stereo REL Q201E  subs  a DSPeaker anti mode   DSP and a DIY Bent Audio TAP passive Pre.
 I am loving this combo .


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> Agreed.  What the amperage draw at 18 VDC?  May be in the range of a Teradak DC-30W


 
  
 FYI. On the Antelope site they describe the Live Clock as having "DC Universal input 12 to 18 volts"...
  
 Looks like a nice unit. Seems like your OCX but smaller form factor and without the video functionality?


----------



## ccschua

classfolkphile said:


> So has anyone used the Singxer SU-1 with an Apple computer using Yosemite or El Capitan?
> 
> I have not been able to get the Dixio I was sent to connect on two different Apples, with Yosemite (10.10.3) or El Capitan (10.11.4 or 10.11.5). DIYinHK sent me a screen shot with the Pro 3Z showing up in OSX 10.9.3.
> 
> ...


 
  
 well once I received the pro3Z I will be able to compare it to the F-1.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  Do you have any info on the clocking they use?  G1 PLL? OXCO?


 
 This info comes from the clock designer himself. ( https://www.by-rutgers.nl/rutgerS-Clock.html )
 He comes from the world of designing for short wave receivers etc, an area that requires low noise.
  
 It is a VCXO oscillator entombed in resin.
  

  
  
 Noise diagram: the red line is of this oscillator.
  

  
  
 Cheers


----------



## ccschua

jabbr said:


> The Grimm CC1 can reclock AES/EBU as well.


 
  
 Very exciting unit indeed, it approaches the MSB femto level. wonder what is the damage and how good it is.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> This info comes from the clock designer himself. ( https://www.by-rutgers.nl/rutgerS-Clock.html )
> He comes from the world of designing for short wave receivers etc, an area that requires low noise.
> 
> It is a VCXO oscillator entombed in resin.
> ...


 

 Very cool!  Nice phase noise numbers.  I assume you'll use it to both reclock the AES and as a Wclock input for the D16


----------



## rb2013

enginedr said:


> Its 6 watts max draw should be less then a 1/2 amp . there are some nice r-core ones on E-Bay I am looking at rated @ 18v 2.5 amps
> I have too many things burning in now . Just had my VTL -100 tube   amps modified and up dated to use 2 KT 120 tubes ea.
> I use Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers  Stereo REL Q201E  subs  a DSPeaker anti mode   DSP and a DIY Bent Audio TAP passive Pre.
> I am loving this combo .


 
 The TeraDak DC-30w has an R-core and adjustable voltage output. 

  
  


mourip said:


> FYI. On the Antelope site they describe the Live Clock as having "DC Universal input 12 to 18 volts"...
> 
> Looks like a nice unit. Seems like your OCX but smaller form factor and without the video functionality?


 
 Yes I saw that - the OCX can output two different SR's simultaneously - helpful in a studio setting.  Say playback at 192k and recording at 96k, etc... It also has more clock outputs.
  
 I like the calibration function on the Live clock.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Very cool!  Nice phase noise numbers.  I assume you'll use it to both reclock the AES and as a Wclock input for the D16




I'm going to try all combinations


----------



## enginedr

One good feature of the Antelope live clock In combo with the Red Net 3 is that I can change sample rate with the clock independently
 of the Red net . I have a DAC limited to 176.4 . The RN3 does not support this sample rate only the D16 at 500.00 more
 It is a good combo .
  
 I am still shopping for a LPS the stock wall wart is @ 18 volts 
  
 I guess its all in the clock ! The detail and smooth presentation is unreal . Big time foot taping and occasional goose bumps .


----------



## motberg

enginedr said:


> One good feature of the Antelope live clock In combo with the Red Net 3 is that I can change sample rate with the clock independently
> of the Red net . I have a DAC limited to 176.4 . The RN3 does not support this sample rate only the D16 at 500.00 more
> It is a good combo .
> 
> ...


 

 Nice find on the Live Clock..
 I have one of these PS powering a tube preamp, seems a hearty unit, may be an option for your 18V requirement:
 https://www.sbooster.com/botw-pp-eco-18-19v/


----------



## enginedr

Thanks for the tip I ordered  this one I wanted the smallest R-Core types . All I can say is the Antelope Live Made a huge  difference in SQ in my system .
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZEROZONE-30VA-LT1038cp-mini-linear-Power-supply-DC5V-9V-12V-15V-18V-24V-/111981557417?hash=item1a129ef6a9


----------



## REXNFX

enginedr said:


> One good feature of the Antelope live clock In combo with the Red Net 3 is that I can change sample rate with the clock independently
> of the Red net . I have a DAC limited to 176.4 . The RN3 does not support this sample rate only the D16 at 500.00 more
> It is a good combo .
> 
> ...


 
 Sounds great, what source/software are you using? TIA!


----------



## enginedr

I am using a 2014 MAC mini - I tunes & Chanel D Pure Music .


----------



## Albrecht

> try to see if you can find one used


 
 thanks for all RB....
  
 Just curious, is your Audience AU24e SPDIF 1.5m or 1 m. I find lots of used 1.0m, and I think that going 1.5m is the best call.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## mourip

albrecht said:


> thanks for all RB....
> 
> Just curious, is your Audience AU24e SPDIF 1.5m or 1 m. I find lots of used 1.0m, and I think that going 1.5m is the best call.
> 
> Cheers,


 
  
 Just curious. I thought that shorter was better. Is there an advantage for that lenght with reducing reflections?


----------



## jabbr

mourip said:


> Just curious. I thought that shorter was better. Is there an advantage for that lenght with reducing reflections?


 
 I thought 1.5 m was the optimum for SPDIF length wrt reflections.


> The theory behind the 1.5 meter length is that whatever reflections come back from the far end of the cable will arrive in the "fat part" of the "digital eye" and not where the signal is crossing the zero axis, which would be expected to cause "crossover notch distortion."
> Source: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=cables&m=156324


----------



## rb2013

albrecht said:


> thanks for all RB....
> 
> Just curious, is your Audience AU24e SPDIF 1.5m or 1 m. I find lots of used 1.0m, and I think that going 1.5m is the best call.
> 
> Cheers,


 

 I have the 1M  - I bet the 1.5M is better.  Even though it's significantly better then the 1.5M AS Statement - which is as you know is very good.
  
 I pd $400 for my Audience - the 1M new is $690 and the 1.5M is $790
  
 They do have a new cable out the 'SX' which is $1035 for the 1M and $1180 for the 1.5M


----------



## gnn16

classfolkphile said:


> So has anyone used the Singxer SU-1 with an Apple computer using Yosemite or El Capitan?
> 
> I have not been able to get the Dixio I was sent to connect on two different Apples, with Yosemite (10.10.3) or El Capitan (10.11.4 or 10.11.5). DIYinHK sent me a screen shot with the Pro 3Z showing up in OSX 10.9.3.
> 
> ...


 
 I've been using the SU-1 for a week now with my iMac running El Capitan on a SD card. I've had no problem connecting it, with the system recognising the SU-1 from the start. The only issue I had was the DAC not being able to lock the signal as the M6 DAC has a maximum input of 192 kHz - this was fixed through Audirvana, limiting the output at said sample rate (Apple MIDI couldn't quite handle it).
  
 It's been burning-in ever since most hours of the day (I'm not allowed to play music at night unfortunately), playing Tellurium's burn-in CD all day and various songs in the evening (mostly classical, classic rock and a bit of jazz and electronic). I am more and more amazed at how good it is starting to sound! It is though too soon to make any definitive judgement as it is evolving quite a lot so will revert after 200h+ burn-in.
  
 This is my system, optimised thanks to *rb2013* !
  
*iMac *> AB Jitterbug > _Curious USB Cable_ > iPurifier 2 > *Startech 1GB LAN USB extender (LEX)* > _BJC CAT6a Ethernet Cable_ > *Startech 1GB LAN USB extender (REX)* (iFI DC iPurifier & Swagman Lab SE PSU) > AB Jitterbug > _Curious USB Cable_ > *Uptone Regen* (iFI DC iPurifier & Swagman Lab SE PSU) > _Curious Regen USB Cable_ > iPurifier 2 > *Singxer SU-1* > _Tellurium Q Digital Blue AES_ > *M6 DAC* > _Tellurium Q Blue XLR Cable_ > *M6 Amp* > _Tellurium Q Blue Speaker Cable_ > *B&W CM9*


----------



## Albrecht

> thought that shorter was better


 
  
  
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm
  
 According to SN, many SPDIF receivers are 75ohm, but many cables are not.
  
 My 1.5m AS Statement is already better than a very good 1m APL. But of course the real test is comparing 1m with 1.5 of the same brand & model.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Albrecht

> It's the audiophile equivalent of the Startech LAN so you can use it with SU1.


 
  
 Looks like the LanRover is now out.......
  
 http://www.psaudio.com/products/lanrover-usb-transporter/


----------



## mourip

jabbr said:


> I thought 1.5 m was the optimum for SPDIF length wrt reflections.


 
  
 Rings a bell now. I think you are right.
  
 I ordered an Antelope LiveClock from Sweetwater today. I also ordered one of their house brand 1.5m BNC wordclock cables. I am sure it will work fine for now until my Visa card can recover and I can gather a few more recommendations on bang-for-the-buck cables.
  
 Is the BNC output recommended or can one get equal results with AES?


----------



## TJHUB

rb2013 said:


> I have the 1M  - I bet the 1.5M is better.  Even though it's significantly better then the 1.5M AS Statement - which is as you know is very good.
> 
> I pd $400 for my Audience - the 1M new is $690 and the 1.5M is $790
> 
> They do have a new cable out the 'SX' which is $1035 for the 1M and $1180 for the 1.5M




I have an F-1 here on loan, and I really like it. I'd love an Audience AU24, but I dont want to spend that much right now. I have a Black Cat Silverstar 75 now. Do you think the Audio Sensability SE would be better than the Silverstar?


----------



## classfolkphile

gnn16 said:


> I've been using the SU-1 for a week now with my iMac running El Capitan on a SD card. I've had no problem connecting it, with the system recognising the SU-1 from the start. The only issue I had was the DAC not being able to lock the signal as the M6 DAC has a maximum input of 192 kHz - this was fixed through Audirvana, limiting the output at said sample rate (Apple MIDI couldn't quite handle it).
> 
> It's been burning-in ever since most hours of the day (I'm not allowed to play music at night unfortunately), playing Tellurium's burn-in CD all day and various songs in the evening (mostly classical, classic rock and a bit of jazz and electronic). I am more and more amazed at how good it is starting to sound! It is though too soon to make any definitive judgement as it is evolving quite a lot so will revert after 200h+ burn-in.
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting about the signal lock. Thank you.


----------



## rb2013

gnn16 said:


> I've been using the SU-1 for a week now with my iMac running El Capitan on a SD card. I've had no problem connecting it, with the system recognising the SU-1 from the start. The only issue I had was the DAC not being able to lock the signal as the M6 DAC has a maximum input of 192 kHz - this was fixed through Audirvana, limiting the output at said sample rate (Apple MIDI couldn't quite handle it).
> 
> It's been burning-in ever since most hours of the day (I'm not allowed to play music at night unfortunately), playing Tellurium's burn-in CD all day and various songs in the evening (mostly classical, classic rock and a bit of jazz and electronic). I am more and more amazed at how good it is starting to sound! It is though too soon to make any definitive judgement as it is evolving quite a lot so will revert after 200h+ burn-in.
> 
> ...


Cheers Mate! I still have this uber USB chain in my office, and daily marvel at the SQ. I wonder sometimes why it's 2nd string? But I came to this from very intensive listening over many nights and AOIP is clearly the better of the two. But I have to admit at times I wonder if what's gained, something is lost. An emotional warmth the uber USB conveys, totally subject, but a connecton.

This all gets down to a very individualistic evaluation, and preference, still right now AOIP is in the primary spot. But I'm not a dedicated 'fanboy', keeping an objective viewpoint. Always open to re-evaluaton. It'll take more then the xu216 pro or Lanrover to change my position at this point. Something truly revolutionary on the USB front, with one eye on TB3 coming...


----------



## thisisvv

Atlast able to get F-1 with my ubuntu  for reference this worked.
  
  
 https://www.xmos.com/published/enable-usb-drivers-linux
  
  
 Now problem is when i try to connect PC->Regen->f-1->Dac . This doesn't work any idea?
  
  
 V


----------



## somestranger26

jabbr said:


> The Grimm CC1 can reclock AES/EBU as well.


 
 Really curious how CC1 would compare to the Mutec MC-3+ USB as reclocker with the LiveClock as WCLK. The price is in the same ballpark ($2000 vs $2600).


----------



## gnn16

classfolkphile said:


> Interesting about the signal lock. Thank you.


 
  
 Audirvana's "power of 2 oversampling" option was opted-in which wasn't an issue previously as the DAC would only receive up to 192 kHz. Since the SU 1 is able to accept samples up to 768kHz, my DAC became the bottleneck. This shouldn't be an issue for anyone having a DSD compatible DAC or not using this option in Audirvana / any other player


----------



## gnn16

rb2013 said:


> Cheers Mate! I still have this uber USB chain in my office, and daily marvel at the SQ. I wonder sometimes why it's 2nd string? But I came to this from very intensive listening over many nights and AOIP is clearly the better of the two. But I have to admit at times I wonder if what's gained, something is lost. An emotional warmth the uber USB conveys, totally subject, but a connecton.
> 
> This all gets down to a very individualistic evaluation, and preference, still right now AOIP is in the primary spot. But I'm not a dedicated 'fanboy', keeping an objective viewpoint. Always open to re-evaluaton. It'll take more then the xu216 pro or Lanrover to change my position at this point. Something truly revolutionary on the USB front, with one eye on TB3 coming...


 
  
 This all sounds interesting and I wish I could jump in the boat of AOIP but my wallet urges me to stop at the moment ! I'll keep following all your developments


----------



## classfolkphile

rb2013 said:


> This all gets down to a very individualistic evaluation, and preference, still right now AOIP is in the primary spot. But I'm not a dedicated 'fanboy', keeping an objective viewpoint. Always open to re-evaluaton. It'll take more then the xu216 pro or Lanrover to change my position at this point. Something truly revolutionary on the USB front, with one eye on TB3 coming...


 
  
 What's TB3?


----------



## classfolkphile

gnn16 said:


> Audirvana's "power of 2 oversampling" option was opted-in which wasn't an issue previously as the DAC would only receive up to 192 kHz. Since the SU 1 is able to accept samples up to 768kHz, my DAC became the bottleneck. This shouldn't be an issue for anyone having a DSD compatible DAC or not using this option in Audirvana / any other player


 

 Got it: that makes it a bit clearer.


----------



## rb2013

tjhub said:


> I have an F-1 here on loan, and I really like it. I'd love an Audience AU24, but I dont want to spend that much right now. I have a Black Cat Silverstar 75 now. Do you think the Audio Sensability SE would be better than the Silverstar?


 

 That I wouldn't know as I have never had a Silverstar.
  
 The AS Statement was the best I heard prior to getting the SR Element Copper (my Galileo MPC died - and is being replaced) and the au24 se.  With out the Galileo the au24 is the best so far.  Interesting even with AOIP these cables do make a difference on the SPDIF connection to the DAC - did not hear that on the SPDIF input to the Mutec.  As least in my system it that last cable to the DAC that makes the most difference.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> Really curious how CC1 would compare to the Mutec MC-3+ USB as reclocker with the LiveClock as WCLK. The price is in the same ballpark ($2000 vs $2600).


 

 Yes that would be interesting.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Yes that would be interesting.




Yes, indeed: are two €1000 devices better than a single €2000 device.
Not easy to find out


----------



## Albrecht

> I wish I could jump in the boat of AOIP but my wallet urges me to stop at the moment ! I'll keep following all your developments


 
  
 Plus one. But that doesn't temper my gratitude for RB and folks who are jumping in and figuring out a great path for all us to follow. It's not only discovering, but comprehensively testing other "sub-components" in the chain to discover what works best for them.
  
 In addition, (my own bias), I have a real problem with the "corrupt" software industry, and the glorification of the "app." High end audio, - (for me), - is still all about the HARDWARE. And being in the IT industry and seeing what goes on with software developers.... ouch. The last thing that I want to do is pay a yearly subscription fee AND be the QA department to the SCAM of the latest and greatest version of software "player" that is so much better than its other 3 competitors...
  
 Cheers,


----------



## jabbr

albrecht said:


> ......
> In addition, (my own bias), I have a real problem with the "corrupt" software industry, and the glorification of the "app." High end audio, - (for me), - is still all about the HARDWARE. And being in the IT industry and seeing what goes on with software developers.... ouch. The last thing that I want to do is pay a yearly subscription fee AND be the QA department to the SCAM of the latest and greatest version of software "player" that is so much better than its other 3 competitors...
> 
> Cheers,




I know from first hand experience that software can have a big negative effect on how the hardware performs. All the latest player software are hooked by the numbers-game and is galopping in the wrong direction wrt the effect on hardware audio performance. That's why you now get all those 2 or 3 computer setups, trying to isolate the badness going on in those PCs from the DAC. MQn was the only player going about it in the proper way IMHO, minimising to the extreme what a CPU has to do and how it does it.

AOIP is also something like that isolation purpose, but it is coming from the hardware/network side and the software no longer matters as long as it produces the same bits (that's where I still notice differences using different players that use different upsampling algorithms).


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> Yes, indeed: are two €1000 devices better than a single €2000 device.
> Not easy to find out


 
 Nor cheap.  Too bad you're not in the US
  


albrecht said:


> Plus one. But that doesn't temper my gratitude for RB and folks who are jumping in and figuring out a great path for all us to follow. It's not only discovering, but comprehensively testing other "sub-components" in the chain to discover what works best for them.
> 
> In addition, (my own bias), I have a real problem with the "corrupt" software industry, and the glorification of the "app." High end audio, - (for me), - is still all about the HARDWARE. And being in the IT industry and seeing what goes on with software developers.... ouch. The last thing that I want to do is pay a yearly subscription fee AND be the QA department to the SCAM of the latest and greatest version of software "player" that is so much better than its other 3 competitors...
> 
> Cheers,


 
 Well put on the s/w front!


----------



## Albrecht

> minimising to the extreme what a CPU has to do and how it does it.


 
  
 Thanks for your comments. Yeah, - AOIP is "better" 
  
 Before jumping into Dante/Rednet/AOIP solution, - I/we have to find the best solution for player/DB in MAC land.
  
 Thanks again,


----------



## REXNFX

rb2013 said:


> Cheers Mate! I still have this uber USB chain in my office, and daily marvel at the SQ. I wonder sometimes why it's 2nd string? But I came to this from very intensive listening over many nights and AOIP is clearly the better of the two. But I have to admit at times I wonder if what's gained, something is lost. An emotional warmth the uber USB conveys, totally subject, but a connecton.
> 
> This all gets down to a very individualistic evaluation, and preference, still right now AOIP is in the primary spot. But I'm not a dedicated 'fanboy', keeping an objective viewpoint. Always open to re-evaluaton. It'll take more then the xu216 pro or Lanrover to change my position at this point. Something truly revolutionary on the USB front, with one eye on TB3 coming...


 
 Any plans to try the microrendu?


----------



## Clemmaster

rexnfx said:


> Any plans to try the microrendu?


 
 I did try the microRendu. It's great.
  
 However, it can't compare to the Rednet 3, be it with the F-1 or Bel Canto REFLink.
  
 I even tried an external Thunderbolt 2 PCI-Express with a Lynx AES16e, powered by a Teddy Pardo LPS and connected to the mac mini with Corning's fiber thunderbolt cable (galvanic isolation).
  
 In the end, the Rednet 3 connected directly to the Ethernet of the mac mini is better. Sound is more punchy, better detailed and sucks you into the performance, rather than throwing a rendition of said performance at you.


----------



## wushuliu

clemmaster said:


> Sound is more punchy, better detailed and sucks you into the performance, rather than throwing a rendition of said performance at you.


 
  
 Great description.


----------



## rb2013

classfolkphile said:


> What's TB3?


 
 Thunderbolt 3 - see my other thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806121/thunderbolt-3-for-audio-is-this-the-next-computer-audio-standard
  
 No stone unturned!


----------



## rb2013

rexnfx said:


> Any plans to try the microrendu?


 

 No - no interest in DNLA/UPnP, for various technical reasons - see the early parts of my AOIP thread


----------



## rb2013

clemmaster said:


> I did try the microRendu. It's great.
> 
> However, it can't compare to the Rednet 3, be it with the F-1 or Bel Canto REFLink.
> 
> ...


 

 Your post on my TB3 thread was interesting.
  
 With the extreme clocking on the SPDIF/AES with the Mutec and the Wclock with the OCX - another major step up.


----------



## REXNFX

clemmaster said:


> I did try the microRendu. It's great.
> 
> However, it can't compare to the Rednet 3, be it with the F-1 or Bel Canto REFLink.
> 
> ...


 
 Cheers for the feedback!


----------



## abartels

Hi guys,
  
 Since @rb2013 is also fond of mains filtering, I am sure he doesn't blame me when posting this short message:
  
  
  
 I started a new thread about a newly discovered netfilter ( 230V Only!!!)
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/814781/powerfilter-with-11-sockets-powergrip-yg-1-improved-belkin-pf50-filter-user-reviews-thoughts-alternatives
  
 Take a look, it's about this beauty:
  

  
  
 Cheers!
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Since @rb2013 is also fond of mains filtering, I am sure he doesn't blame me when posting this short message:
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks Alex - will check that out.  Cool name 'PowerGrip'


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys,
> ...


 
  
 My pleasure Bob 
  
 Hope they will also start designing US version! Depends on market of course,,,,,
  
 You can see, Monster stopped manufacturing those HTS filters, Belkin stopped manufacturing them, maybe market is too narrow to invest in 
 Hope Powergrip will survive!


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> My pleasure Bob
> 
> Hope they will also start designing US version! Depends on market of course,,,,,
> 
> ...


 

 My favorite are the Audience aR series - insanely expensive.  I was fortunate to find one at a fantastic price used.  Coupled with a few of the Art Audio PB4X4Pro and the Cerious Graphene power chords - that really made a difference.
 http://www.audience-av.com/conditioners/
  
 I hope they do come to the US
  
 On the PB 4X4Pro - for $80 these are a bargain - they do use MOV's that need to be replaced every 5 yras or so (depending on the amount of power surges your area gets - storms and lightning being the worst culprits:


> All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF™ (Advanced Power Filtering) which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.
> By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, *and also the two sides of the AC line*. *This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system.* Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.


 
 I have SR Teslapex wall socket, with the Audience aR plugged in, then run the four separate PB4X4Pro from that.  I like the fact almost all my gear (esp the ones with SMPS) are on separate isolated filters, and the DAC is run alone on it's own.  So the DAC's clocks are triple isolated - once by the Audience aR then again by it's own dedicated PB4X4Pro - but with the isolation of AC feedback into the mains for the Mutec, RN and OCX - their SMPS are isolated from the DAC at their respective power filter end.  So the DAC has double filtering from all those SMPS's.


----------



## Jerryfan

https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/112062071571 

F-1 in a case.


----------



## wushuliu

jerryfan said:


> https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/112062071571
> 
> F-1 in a case.


 

 Awesome


----------



## rb2013

jerryfan said:


> https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/112062071571
> 
> F-1 in a case.


 

 Nice looking case


----------



## Clemmaster

The case is sold separately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Singxer-CNC-Aluminum-Protective-Housing-Case-for-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface/112061036320?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35389%26meid%3D793f5c26dd4249d78b3b7444e60d2821%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112062071571


----------



## FredA

clemmaster said:


> The case is sold separately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Singxer-CNC-Aluminum-Protective-Housing-Case-for-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface/112061036320?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35389%26meid%3D793f5c26dd4249d78b3b7444e60d2821%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112062071571




Perfect case!


----------



## classfolkphile

rb2013 said:


> Thunderbolt 3 - see my other thread:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/806121/thunderbolt-3-for-audio-is-this-the-next-computer-audio-standard
> 
> No stone unturned!


 

 Thanks!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > My pleasure Bob
> ...


 
  
 I am very fond of the IsoTek filters, especially the Select, Mosaic and Ultimate series. They are insanely expensive but top of the bill.
  
 http://www.isoteksystems.com/products/ultimate/evo3-super-titan/


----------



## Albrecht

> F-1 in a case.


 
  
 Wow, - so cool.
  
 And very reasonably priced. I am pretty sure that i paid around $250 combined for the F-1, my aluminum project case, shipping, taxes, import duties, - etc.
  
 Plus, one gets the pretty blue status indicator lights on the outside...
  
 Thanks for posting this.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## panhead

clemmaster said:


> The case is sold separately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Singxer-CNC-Aluminum-Protective-Housing-Case-for-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface/112061036320?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35389%26meid%3D793f5c26dd4249d78b3b7444e60d2821%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112062071571


 
 Thanks for this link!!!!


----------



## kazsud

jerryfan said:


> https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/112062071571
> 
> F-1 in a case.




Copped


----------



## Luckbad

Just got a Singxer SU-1 in as a "downgrade" to the Mutec MC-3+USB for work. It's hooked up to an MHDT Labs Canary DAC going into Garage1217 Project Sunrise III amp then JVC HA-DX2000 headphones.
  
 I was worried I'd be missing a lot by getting rid of the Mutec and getting something less expensive, but the SU-1 is outstanding.
  
 I'd go so far as to say that it is superior to the Mutec MC-1.2, and as good as the MC-3+USB for a "modest" setup like this. Surely, on a super high end DAC and amp, you could probably hear improvements with the higher end Mutec, but I can't on this setup.


----------



## Sanlitun

clemmaster said:


> The case is sold separately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Singxer-CNC-Aluminum-Protective-Housing-Case-for-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface/112061036320?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35389%26meid%3D793f5c26dd4249d78b3b7444e60d2821%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112062071571


 
  
 Thanks, purchased.


----------



## b0bb

clemmaster said:


> The case is sold separately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Singxer-CNC-Aluminum-Protective-Housing-Case-for-F-1-XMOS-USB-digital-interface/112061036320?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35389%26meid%3D793f5c26dd4249d78b3b7444e60d2821%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112062071571


 

 Very nice case, bought one.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## classfolkphile

luckbad said:


> Just got a Singxer SU-1 in as a "downgrade" to the Mutec MC-3+USB for work. It's hooked up to an MHDT Labs Canary DAC going into Garage1217 Project Sunrise III amp then JVC HA-DX2000 headphones.
> 
> I was worried I'd be missing a lot by getting rid of the Mutec and getting something less expensive, but the SU-1 is outstanding.
> 
> I'd go so far as to say that it is superior to the Mutec MC-1.2, and as good as the MC-3+USB for a "modest" setup like this. Surely, on a super high end DAC and amp, you could probably hear improvements with the higher end Mutec, but I can't on this setup.


 

 Very interesting, thanks.


----------



## ccschua

what about a pro3Z. may be I can spill some beans hopefully.


----------



## mourip

rb2013 said:


> ...I have this much better Oyaide Silver BNC digital cable coming from Japan to try.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/152131833873?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> I guess to sum it up -


 
  
 Did you receive it yet?


----------



## wushuliu

A cable option for the budget conscious: 

 Audioquest VSD-5 digital coax cable 1 meter long. Cable is factory terminated with RCAs. Cable is made of 100% solid silver center conductor and silver plated copper braid and foil shielding. 
  

  
 They also sell bulk by the foot.


----------



## Padawan38

Hello,
  
 Unless I missed something I haven't seen any feedback/review on the Singxer SU-1.
 I'm considering buying this one but I'd like to know whether it brings value added over the Breeze U8 (Talema + upgraded clocks).
  
 Additional question, how does the SU-1 performs VS F1 "stock" ?
  
 Can you please help ?
  
 Thanks a lot
  
 Rgds
 P


----------



## mourip

padawan38 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Unless I missed something I haven't seen any feedback/review on the Singxer SU-1.
> I'm considering buying this one but I'd like to know whether it brings value added over the Breeze U8 (Talema + upgraded clocks).
> ...


 
  
 See post #3078 just above here. Not too much action otherwise...


----------



## Albrecht

> feedback/review on the Singxer SU-1.


 
  
 Hi,
 Is it not the same board?


----------



## patrikh

If I were to get an SU-1, what kind of i2s cable should I be looking for?


----------



## bimmer100

patrikh said:


> If I were to get an SU-1, what kind of i2s cable should I be looking for?



In my opinion, I had great luck with .5M or .3M cables from wire world, or dh labs sonic silver. Those were awesome. Wire world is slight better imho. 
I tried many and found more expensive didn't really matter with wireworld . So the Violet purple one is the best for the money imho. Other more expensive ones made the hole in my wallet bigger is all. 
But I don't recommend longer than .5meter, but some may disagree and say it's ok. I found shortest is best. 
So my best cable is .3M violet purple wire world HDMI.


----------



## somestranger26

padawan38 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Unless I missed something I haven't seen any feedback/review on the Singxer SU-1.
> I'm considering buying this one but I'd like to know whether it brings value added over the Breeze U8 (Talema + upgraded clocks).


 
 F1 is already a significant upgrade from the Breeze. That was the whole reason the thread was started and has been beaten to death already.


----------



## patrikh

bimmer100 said:


> In my opinion, I had great luck with .5M or .3M cables from wire world, or dh labs sonic silver. Those were awesome. Wire world is slight better imho.
> I tried many and found more expensive didn't really matter with wireworld . So the Violet purple one is the best for the money imho. Other more expensive ones made the hole in my wallet bigger is all.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Seems like there are no 0.5m variants of the purple and red.


----------



## stigb

patrikh said:


> If I were to get an SU-1, what kind of i2s cable should I be looking for?


 
 I am using an ordinary HDMI cable to connect my SU-1 to my PS Audiso Directstream Dac.


----------



## Luckbad

padawan38 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Unless I missed something I haven't seen any feedback/review on the Singxer SU-1.
> I'm considering buying this one but I'd like to know whether it brings value added over the Breeze U8 (Talema + upgraded clocks).
> ...




Compared to the F-1, the SU-1 has better extension both ways and a more powerful overall sound.

My only critique of the F-1 stock was a slight swooshy airy sound in the highs. Not quite USB/digital hash. The SU-1 doesn't have that at all.


----------



## bButcher

Talking about downgrade, now this is a upgrade for F-1 owner. It will boost F-1's performance to at least the same level as SU-1 if not better at expense of couple of dollars.
  
 (1) Remove Mornsun B0505S (pink circle) which at worst will generate 100mV noise at isolation section
 (2) Replace generic 3.3V LDO (orange circle) which provide power to Xilinx cpld with ADP150AUJZ-3.3-R7 (~1.0$) - the same ultra low noise LDO (white circle) used to drive the two CCHD XO.
 (3) Also replace the same generic 3.3V LDO (red circle) used for XMOS with ADP150AUJZ-3.3-R7 (~1.0$); with this mod you should not need any external 5V for the USB.
 (4) Use 18605 Li-ion battery to drive the isolation section directly (green circle): Since both LDO on the isolation section are ADP150, they will work fine as long as the input voltage is between 3.4V ~ 5.5V, thus Li-ion battery is perfect for this job. The measured power consumption is 44.1mA on my F-1, so a single 2700mAh 18650 battery will give you around 40~50 hours listening.


----------



## Padawan38

luckbad said:


> Compared to the F-1, the SU-1 has better extension both ways and a more powerful overall sound.
> 
> My only critique of the F-1 stock was a slight swooshy airy sound in the highs. Not quite USB/digital hash. The SU-1 doesn't have that at all.


 
  
 Hello
  
 Thank you very much for the feedback.
 Looking at the XU208 "finished" products (linear power supply equipped, multiples entries) so far only Singxer SU-1 on the market.
  
 Do you foresee any new comer in the competition soon ?
  
 Thx


----------



## panhead

luckbad said:


> Compared to the F-1, the SU-1 has better extension both ways and a more powerful overall sound.
> 
> My only critique of the F-1 stock was a slight swooshy airy sound in the highs. Not quite USB/digital hash. The SU-1 doesn't have that at all.


 
 Great info and the first comparison I've seen.   Many thanks!


----------



## Padawan38

Hello,
  
 Just ordered the SU-1, hope this will be a good improvement over the Breeze U8 ...
  
 Rgds
 P


----------



## kazsud

luckbad said:


> Compared to the F-1, the SU-1 has better extension both ways and a more powerful overall sound.
> 
> My only critique of the F-1 stock was a slight swooshy airy sound in the highs. Not quite USB/digital hash. The SU-1 doesn't have that at all.


 
 Thanks. Changing my order


----------



## Sanlitun

luckbad said:


> Compared to the F-1, the SU-1 has better extension both ways and a more powerful overall sound.
> 
> My only critique of the F-1 stock was a slight swooshy airy sound in the highs. Not quite USB/digital hash. The SU-1 doesn't have that at all.


 
  
 Thanks for the comparison.
  
 I had gone with the F-1 based on the assumption that being able to power it with a power source of choice such as a battery setup would make it superior.
  
 Now I'm quite curious to compare them here myself.


----------



## somestranger26

sanlitun said:


> Thanks for the comparison.
> 
> I had gone with the F-1 based on the assumption that being able to power it with a power source of choice such as a battery setup would make it superior.
> 
> Now I'm quite curious to compare them here myself.


 

 If you bypass the isolation DC-DC converter like the one guy just posted about, they're probably very close in performance.


----------



## motberg

I am not an EE, cannot even solder well, but one thing I noticed on the U1 from the board photos is that it seems to have the power from the main transformer entering the board on the output side of the moat (if I understand this isolation stuff correctly).
  
 https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a219r.lm0.14.1.pCXMpL&ns=1&abbucket=2#detail
  
 My older Tanly DDC has 2 power inputs into the card, seems one on input side side and one on output side.
  
 So I wonder if the U1 is using the 5V USB line power for the input side electronics and the on-board PS for the output side. I was also wondering if you could easily just change the PS to a big battery or high end LPS, just by plugging the substitute PS into the connector on the board.
  
 Seems to me something like 2x the new Uptone UltraCap PS would be cool (if it offers sufficient power and correct voltages), that would offer separately sourced and independently isolated sota power for the DDC.... and even though a big investment, the UltraCap is a pretty flexible device with possibly a high resale value.


----------



## Clemmaster

motberg said:


> I am not an EE, cannot even solder well, but one thing I noticed on the U1 from the board photos is that it seems to have the power from the main transformer entering the board on the output side of the moat (if I understand this isolation stuff correctly).
> 
> https://world.taobao.com/item/528898172401.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a219r.lm0.14.1.pCXMpL&ns=1&abbucket=2#detail
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, only the output side - after isolation - is powered by the internal linear power supply.
 You certainly _don't want_ to use the same power supply for both side of the isolation chip, otherwise you defeat it's purpose.
  
 You can of course replace the internal LPS with a battery, if you so desire.
  
 You could also isolate the input 5V on the USB port and add a separate _isolated_ power supply to feed the "dirty" side of the SU-1. To what benefit? Hard to tell.
 The isolation chip seems to do a very good job on the F-1, for which everything is derived from the "dirty" source USB supply.


----------



## Luckbad

It's worth pointing out that I'm comparing the stock F-1 and SU-1.

I have no experience with modded or decrapified versions of either.


----------



## gwitzel

Hi everybody,
  
 I just wanted to give a short feedback: Thanks to this thread I became aware of this USB bridge, bought the F1, and it is incredible.
  
 My 'problem' was that my chain was very detailed and satisfying via headphones, but not so much via loudspeakers. Something was holding back and I didn't like to listen at loud levels. The music did not become quite room-filling - I don't know how else to describe it. I was already worried that my amplifiers might not be up to the task.
  
 Strangly, not feeding my Gumby via USB from the computer, but from an Apple TV via Toslink was much better, not so detailed and resolved, but not strangled as described above. I concluded it must be the USB input of the Gumby.
  
 With the F1, this effect is completely gone. I can enjoy the music at loud levels (mainly accustic music, orchestras, piano, chamber music). The sound is also far smoother and more natural. I compared:
  
 2009 Mac Mini / Audirvana ->  USB -> Gumby -> Parasound P5/A23 -> Brocksieper Minara:  problem as described
  
 2009 Mac Mini / Audirvana ->  F1 -> Gumby (BNC) -> Parasound P5/A23 -> Brocksieper Minara:    way more natural and balanced sound; not a small effect!!!
  
 2009 Mac Mini / Audirvana -> Wyrd -> F1 - > Gumby (BNC) -> Parasound P5/A23 -> Brocksieper Minara:    as above, but even smoother; I am in paradise.
  
 Thank you for all the information and help here! This thread is a great resource!


----------



## rb2013

luckbad said:


> Compared to the F-1, the SU-1 has better extension both ways and a more powerful overall sound.
> 
> My only critique of the F-1 stock was a slight swooshy airy sound in the highs. Not quite USB/digital hash. The SU-1 doesn't have that at all.


 
 Not to surprising without some investment in a clean LPS power chain to the F-1, the Talema powered SU-1 would be expected to sound better. Esp at it's greater cost.
  


luckbad said:


> It's worth pointing out that I'm comparing the stock F-1 and SU-1.
> 
> I have no experience with modded or decrapified versions of either.


 
 Now - a 'decrapified' F-1 should be at least an equal match for the SU-1.
  
 Here is my power feed to the F-1 - W4S Recovery (ultra low noise regulation, Crystek CCHD reclocking and ext power port) - feed by a Teradak DC-30W/DC iPur>iPur2 (and level of ultra low noise <1uv power regulation)>F-1
  
 That's a major step-up from a std F-1
  
 Here are my current ratings:
  
Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
 
Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:
 
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/SR Element Copper digital cable                            253
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/Audience au24 se digital cable                              250
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF reclocker)                                                 240
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord                                                                               220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB               170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord                                                        155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2                                                   145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen                                                               135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious                                                                                   135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                                                                      130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2                                                    125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                                                                          110
Singxer F-1  Stock feed                                                                                          110
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                                                                   109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                                                                      108
Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                                                                              100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                                                                 95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                                                                    92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                                                                             85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                                                                          81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                                                                    76
Gustard U12 stock                                                                                                   72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                                                                      65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                                                                      65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                                                                              60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                                                                         50
M2Tech Hiface                                                                                                         40
  
Note the two major leaps - one by adding the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB Extender into the chain.  Then the bigger leap away from USB completely to the REDNET3 Dante AES67 AOIP.  The Mutec 3+ did not help as an ext Word Clock to the RD3 - but after the RD3 as a SPDIF reclocker - excellent.


----------



## RickyV

bbutcher said:


> Talking about downgrade, now this is a upgrade for F-1 owner. It will boost F-1's performance to at least the same level as SU-1 if not better at expense of couple of dollars.
> 
> (1) Remove Mornsun B0505S (pink circle) which at worst will generate 100mV noise at isolation section
> (2) Replace generic 3.3V LDO (orange circle) which provide power to Xilinx cpld with ADP150AUJZ-3.3-R7 (~1.0$) - the same ultra low noise LDO (white circle) used to drive the two CCHD XO.
> ...





Hi bButcher,

Nice work, how did you remove those LDO's? Do you have some tips, i tought it was a bit Risky. I have allso removed the Momsun and the orange circled LDO but not yet the other ones. I am Powering the 5 and the 3.3v with Dexa regulators and i am planning to power the regulators with a Zippy rc lifepo4 battery from Hobbyking.
I allso bought a w4s recovery wich sounds really good, a real imprrovement. I am allso going to power the recovery with an other lifepo4 battery. But here it comes, do you need to remove those other LDO's if i am powering everything with low noise batteries. Those lesser LDO' s when fed with low noise power will generate more noise???

RickyV


----------



## classfolkphile

I couldn't get the Dixio Pro 3Z to work and sent it back. The seller just confirmed it was DOA and refunded the purchase price. He was very pleasant but of course I'm out the return shipping to HK. I don't know why it didn't work but it could have been packed better.
  
 I ordered the Singxer SU-1.


----------



## bButcher

rickyv said:


> Hi bButcher,
> 
> Nice work, how did you remove those LDO's? Do you have some tips, i tought it was a bit Risky. I have allso removed the Momsun and the orange circled LDO but not yet the other ones. I am Powering the 5 and the 3.3v with Dexa regulators and i am planning to power the regulators with a Zippy rc lifepo4 battery from Hobbyking.
> I allso bought a w4s recovery wich sounds really good, a real imprrovement. I am allso going to power the recovery with an other lifepo4 battery. But here it comes, do you need to remove those other LDO's if i am powering everything with low noise batteries. Those lesser LDO' s when fed with low noise power will generate more noise???
> ...


 
 Hi RichkV,
  
 To remove LDO's, first replace the solder tip with a flat one -  something like "http://www.hakko.com/english/tip_selection/type_d.html", and if you have two solder irons then heat both side and cover all pins of LDO simultaneously. Another way is add a big glob of soldering tin such that all 5 pins of LDO can be heated at once.
  
 The LDO for the XMOS is optional, I replace it too such that I won't wonder one day "what if ...", I know I will .., and I have 6 ADP150s.
  
 A simple estimation of LDO output noise:  sqrt(selt generated noise^2 + noise due to input^2); noise due to input = power supply rejection ratio (PSRR)*input power noise
 So even you have 0Vrms perfect source, LDO still will generate its rated noise - usually 50 ~ 100 uVrms for generic LDOs.
  
  
 Best


----------



## danny_66

Hello,
 I've been looking for some extra isolation between my PC and DAC.
 I have the option of replacing the USB-I2S converter with something like the F-1 or keeping my existing USB-I2S Amanero converter and adding a high speed usb isolator like Intona or Alldaq.
  
 The F-1 looks great and does it's isolation after USB conversion to I2S/spdif.
 The Intona and the Alldaq does it's isolation in USB.
  
 Here's the new high speed usb isolator from alldaq:
 http://www.alldaq.com/en/adq-iso
 Looks like the Intona.
  
 many options 
  
 Regards,
 Danny


----------



## slex

Throw in the upcoming ifi s/pdif ipurifier.That's 3 way isolation. Can't wait for it to happen for the mimby i just purchased.


----------



## BirdManOfCT

Is it likely that the Singxer SU-1 will be in stock in a couple months?


----------



## kazsud

birdmanofct said:


> Is it likely that the Singxer SU-1 will be in stock in a couple months?




I ordered one last week and its arriving monday.

The F-1 w/ case is on back order.


----------



## chauphuong

Any one tried Sbooster Vbus 2 then SU1 in the chain?


----------



## classfolkphile

chauphuong said:


> Any one tried Sbooster Vbus 2 then SU1 in the chain?


 

 No, but I have both a SU-1 and a PS Audio LanRover coming; the former Monday, the latter hopefully at the end of the week.


----------



## motberg

danny_66 said:


> Hello,
> I've been looking for some extra isolation between my PC and DAC.
> I have the option of replacing the USB-I2S converter with something like the F-1 or keeping my existing USB-I2S Amanero converter and adding a high speed usb isolator like Intona or Alldaq.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice.... much better looking box than the Intona and offers external power in 2 voltage options... I would not know how to compare the performance specs between the 2 though....


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Nice.... much better looking box than the Intona and offers external power in 2 voltage options... I would not know how to compare the performance specs between the 2 though....


The Icron/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB extender offers galvanic isolation, and Ethernet extension, with LPS PS on the REX and LEX ends, excellent SQ. Doubt the Intona can match that.


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> The Icron/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB extender offers galvanic isolation, and Ethernet extension, with LPS PS on the REX and LEX ends, excellent SQ. Doubt the Intona can match that.


 

 It also doesn't use bottom-of-the-line clocks for 5G acceleration.


----------



## motberg

Sounds great though !!


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> The Icron/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB extender offers galvanic isolation, and Ethernet extension, with LPS PS on the REX and LEX ends, excellent SQ. Doubt the Intona can match that.


 

 Actually my post was a comment in reference to the Alldaq unit mentioned above which seems about half price of the USB-Ethernet-USB convertor you tried....
 I only mention the Intona because I am using one of those and it is a fantastic help in my system, and a similar device to the Alldaq... also lots of good reports on the Intona elsewhere..
 It seems even with the XU208, some type of full isolation from the PC is helpful... there may be different ways to accomplish that to various degree$ of success..
 and there will, of course, always be something better.....


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> It also doesn't use bottom-of-the-line clocks for 5G acceleration.


 

 The Intona is only good to +2G lateral acceleration...5G would likely crack the plastic case.


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Actually my post was a comment in reference to the Alldaq unit mentioned above which seems about half price of the USB-Ethernet-USB convertor you tried....
> I only mention the Intona because I am using one of those and it is a fantastic help in my system, and a similar device to the Alldaq... also lots of good reports on the Intona elsewhere..
> It seems even with the XU208, some type of full isolation from the PC is helpful... there may be different ways to accomplish that to various degree$ of success..
> and there will, of course, always be something better.....


 

 The Alldaq does look interesting - curious to hear some feedback on the PS Audio LANRover


----------



## danny_66

motberg said:


> Nice.... much better looking box than the Intona and offers external power in 2 voltage options... I would not know how to compare the performance specs between the 2 though....


 
  
 I've sent a mail to Alldaq for more technical specs (output noise, pssr, jitter).


----------



## tedzz

dear rb2013
I just got the teradak dc30w yesterday and comparing it to the battery powered Pro3z, the dc30w sounds quite edgy, dry and micro detail is minimum compared to the battery. now I haven't got the DC I purifier yet, but I do use an audio grade power cable.
i couldnt find any info. does it need burn in? 
also do you have any recommendation to replace DC cable or the stock cable is ok?


----------



## jabbr

tedzz said:


> dear rb2013
> I just got the teradak dc30w yesterday and comparing it to the battery powered Pro3z, the dc30w sounds quite edgy, dry and micro detail is minimum compared to the battery. now I haven't got the DC I purifier yet, but I do use an audio grade power cable.
> i couldnt find any info. does it need burn in?
> also do you have any recommendation to replace DC cable or the stock cable is ok?


 
 No LPS is better than battery power IMHO, certainly not a cheapo LPS


----------



## rb2013

tedzz said:


> dear rb2013
> I just got the teradak dc30w yesterday and comparing it to the battery powered Pro3z, the dc30w sounds quite edgy, dry and micro detail is minimum compared to the battery. now I haven't got the DC I purifier yet, but I do use an audio grade power cable.
> i couldnt find any info. does it need burn in?
> also do you have any recommendation to replace DC cable or the stock cable is ok?


 

 Yes - the 'lytic caps need at least 200 hours to settle in.  Stock cable is fine - the DC ifi should help as well.
  
 Which battery were you using?


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> No LPS is better than battery power IMHO, certainly not a cheapo LPS


 

 Well I've had a few Li-ion batteries and always preferred the TeraDak LPS - much better dynamics.  With the DC iPur to reduce noise, as the LDO's in the X1 and DC30W are not the best, a great combination.  But adding the amazing Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme PC a major step up - something not available with a battery.
  
 Unless the battery is a very well designed one - it will have noise greater then a 'cheapo' LPS.
  
 I do use one as a portable solution - with a Audio Quest Dragonfly Red and a split USB cable, a few adapters and my LG4 phone.  Killer good portable solution.
  
 http://www.coreaudiotechnology.com/batteries-vs-linear-power-supply/
  


> Batteries vs Linear Power Supply​ Batteries are low noise, right? That's why people want to use them in audio systems. The most common assumption is that because they are a pure DC source they must have no AC noise. Unfortunately we live in a world where nothing is pure, so let's look at why batteries are not so great a source of power as some may want you to believe.
> How a battery produces power Batteries produce power through a chemical reaction. Every type of battery will have a slightly different chemical mixture that is used to generate power.
> Batteries have a voltage rating and a current/time rating called Amp-Hours. Amp hours basically say how many hours the battery will last if it's drawing one amp of current. Because many systems draw variable loads, a 10Ah battery will not necessarily last 10 hours. It may last 20 or it may last 2 hours depending on the system it is connected to.
> As a battery drains, the amount of chemical compound available to produce electricity drains. That means there's an exponential decay on the amount of power a battery can produce. So a battery at 100% will have far more capability of producing fast transients than a battery at low charge.
> ...


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Well I've had a few Li-ion batteries and always preferred the TeraDak LPS - much better dynamics.  With the DC iPur to reduce noise, as the LDO's in the X1 and DC30W are not the best, a great combination.  But adding the amazing Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme PC a major step up - something not available with a battery.
> 
> ....


 
  
 The type of batteries to use are LiFePO. LiFePO keep their potential right up to the end.
  

  
  
 Here is someone who has done a lot of DIY using LiFePO batteries to build PSU and they seem to be even better than the (basic model of) Paul Hynes LPS.
 http://tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=76790#p76790
  
 Cheers


----------



## tedzz

I am using 6 energizer advance batteries. The sound as i said is low in noise and very focused with great micro detail and no hardness at all. When i use normal panasonic. The sound is not as dynamiv and has a drier sound, evidently when playing orchestra with timpani and percussions. 

Anyway i cant compare with the teradak as it still is in burn in.
Can i just leave it on without connecting it to any device? Would that be considered as burn in? I cant possibly leave the music on with the ddc for a long time.


----------



## kazsud

So last night I took delivery of my Su-1. Right away I could it was way better on headphones and speakers. Everything thing seems better like I am listening to a better dac!! The background is blacker and more natural sounding and even more glare is gone compared to the nuforce u192.
  
 So far I've only have heard coax. My chain is ipad mini 4 - cck - jitterbug - usb cable - su-1 - coax cable - pwd mkii - balanced blue jean cables - ragnarok
  
 I couldn't get i2s to work for me. Maybe I should disconnect coax and then connect the i2s. Hopefully I'll get a aes cable by the weekend.


----------



## jabbr

tedzz said:


> I am using 6 energizer advance batteries. The sound as i said is low in noise and very focused with great micro detail and no hardness at all. When i use normal panasonic. The sound is not as dynamiv and has a drier sound, evidently when playing orchestra with timpani and percussions.
> 
> Anyway i cant compare with the teradak as it still is in burn in.
> Can i just leave it on without connecting it to any device? Would that be considered as burn in? I cant possibly leave the music on with the ddc for a long time.




Well current has to flow through the DC components, so just leaving it on without having it connected to something that draws current won't do a thing.


----------



## rb2013

tedzz said:


> I am using 6 energizer advance batteries. The sound as i said is low in noise and very focused with great micro detail and no hardness at all. When i use normal panasonic. The sound is not as dynamiv and has a drier sound, evidently when playing orchestra with timpani and percussions.
> 
> Anyway i cant compare with the teradak as it still is in burn in.
> Can i just leave it on without connecting it to any device? Would that be considered as burn in? I cant possibly leave the music on with the ddc for a long time.


 

 I hear that these new super capacitors are pretty amazing - but have never tried them. http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-zpm
  
 There should be a current draw during burnin - so the caps get worked.
  
 Speaking of - I had good success replacing the stock ones with Nichicon HW's.


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> The type of batteries to use are LiFePO. LiFePO keep their potential right up to the end.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That's a nice design - for me batteries are a no go, other then portable.


----------



## motberg

kazsud said:


> So last night I took delivery of my Su-1. Right away I could it was way better on headphones and speakers. Everything thing seems better like I am listening to a better dac!! The background is blacker and more natural sounding and even more glare is gone compared to the nuforce u192.
> 
> So far I've only have heard coax. My chain is ipad mini 4 - cck - jitterbug - usb cable - su-1 - coax cable - pwd mkii - balanced blue jean cables - ragnarok
> 
> I couldn't get i2s to work for me. Maybe I should disconnect coax and then connect the i2s. Hopefully I'll get a aes cable by the weekend.


 

 You may need try a different HDMI cable for the i2S (also check the jumper settings on the SU-1).
 I have a different DDC and DAC, but have had success using a Wireworld Starlight 6 HDMI cable from 0.3M to 1M.
 Also a Wireworld Ultraviolet 5.2 at 0.3M
 Normally for i2S the recommendation is shorter is better, I am currently using 0.3M... but the 1M Wireworld Starlight 6 I had in the system was working OK also and I did not notice any problem with the SQ.
 The cables are pretty stiff though, so if possible buy with an ability to return if your equipment position cannot accommodate the connection.


----------



## FredA

Got the i2s installed on the f-1. Not an easy job with the tight case i have. But i succeeded after 3 hours of @!!!@%#.

So far, it is too soon to judge. The rj45 cable and output perhaps need to burn for a little while. But it seems like the sound is more relax and the highs are better. On the other hand, there may be a lack in macro dynamics for now. But i sure like that the bass has diminished. There was too much.

Seems positive but i will know for sure in about 3-4 days.


----------



## rb2013

kazsud said:


> So last night I took delivery of my Su-1. Right away I could it was way better on headphones and speakers. Everything thing seems better like I am listening to a better dac!! The background is blacker and more natural sounding and even more glare is gone compared to the nuforce u192.
> 
> So far I've only have heard coax. My chain is ipad mini 4 - cck - jitterbug - usb cable - su-1 - coax cable - pwd mkii - balanced blue jean cables - ragnarok
> 
> I couldn't get i2s to work for me. Maybe I should disconnect coax and then connect the i2s. Hopefully I'll get a aes cable by the weekend.


I agree like getting a new DAC. I'm amazed at how this small part of the audio chain makes such a big difference.


----------



## Padawan38

rb2013 said:


> I agree like getting a new DAC. I'm amazed at how this small part of the audio chain makes such a big difference.



 



Hello,

Interesting reflexion.
What is "strange" is the added value VS DAC usb input.
Is it because most of the time USB input is not correctly implemented on DAC's ?

Thx


----------



## Padawan38

..


----------



## Padawan38

...


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> jabbr said:
> 
> 
> > The type of batteries to use are LiFePO. LiFePO keep their potential right up to the end.
> ...


 
  
 You should try the *Nanophosphate® ANR26650M1-B *from A123 systems ( http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-ion-cells-26650-cylindrical-cell.htm )
 They are well known for their exceptional performance in audio gear.


----------



## jabbr

abartels said:


> You should try the *Nanophosphate® ANR26650M1-B *from A123 systems ( http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-ion-cells-26650-cylindrical-cell.htm )
> They are well known for their exceptional performance in audio gear.


 
 According to their white paper, this appears to be a chemistry that is not as stable in maintaining potential as is the LiFePO-batteries.


----------



## abartels

jabbr said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > You should try the *Nanophosphate® ANR26650M1-B *from A123 systems ( http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-ion-cells-26650-cylindrical-cell.htm )
> ...


 
  
 FWIW, this IS a LiFePO4 battery, and it is supposed to be one if the best, if not THE best. I ordered a very nice charger for these and will buy a few cells to test with.
 Drawback: They are rather expensive, about €11 a piece. I also ordered a few battery holders for 26650 so I can mount them easily and put them in parallel too for lower internal resistance.


----------



## jabbr

abartels said:


> FWIW, this IS a LiFePO4 battery, and it is supposed to be one if the best, if not THE best. I ordered a very nice charger for these and will buy a few cells to test with.
> Drawback: They are rather expensive, about €11 a piece. I also ordered a few battery holders for 26650 so I can mount them easily and put them in parallel too for lower internal resistance.





abartels said:


> FWIW, this IS a LiFePO4 battery, and it is supposed to be one if the best, if not THE best. I ordered a very nice charger for these and will buy a few cells to test with.
> Drawback: They are rather expensive, about €11 a piece. I also ordered a few battery holders for 26650 so I can mount them easily and put them in parallel too for lower internal resistance.




Yes, you're right (of course), I had overlooked that remark in the white paper, I thought it was based on a different Li molecule.

What do you think of the impact of temparature on the potential?
My impression was it was supposed to be more stable.

The power draw will be more or less constant for a single application, so that wouldn't worry me too much.


----------



## abartels

jabbr said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW, this IS a LiFePO4 battery, and it is supposed to be one if the best, if not THE best. I ordered a very nice charger for these and will buy a few cells to test with.
> ...


 
  
 They keep 3.2V almost all the time until they are empty. Those measurements are with 20W load at least. My applications would ask much less power, thus more stable.
 I would use them to feed every single powerrail separately, they probably would have enough juice to run for a whole week..... (except for discrete output stage,,,,,)


----------



## kazsud

rb2013 said:


> I agree like getting a new DAC. I'm amazed at how this small part of the audio chain makes such a big difference.


 
 So just to understand what this thing does?
  
  
 - Cleaning dirty usb power.
  
 - Faster chipset so it's doing more checks and balances on the zeros and ones?


----------



## Padawan38

Hi

Just received my SU-1, nicely built, more heavy vs Breeze and Gustard.
Immediately plugged, sound already more "dense" vs others above.

Rgds
P


----------



## tedzz

rb2013 said:


> I hear that these new super capacitors are pretty amazing - but have never tried them. http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-zpm
> 
> There should be a current draw during burnin - so the caps get worked.
> 
> Speaking of - I had good success replacing the stock ones with Nichicon HW's.


 

 That sounds like a good idea. I opened up my dc30w, but cannot post the picture.
 Anyway the inside looks like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TeraDak-DC30W-TOUCH-linear-power-supply-DC5V-3A-/262023873646
  
 I see two big caps and four medium ones. However I cannot find any HW, only FW, KW, MW, SW.
  
 Do you have website where I can order the ones you recommend?
  
 Also, how many of the caps should I change? I see smaller ones on the board as well


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree like getting a new DAC. I'm amazed at how this small part of the audio chain makes such a big difference.
> ...


 
 Yes and as John Swenson speaks about 'Packet Noise' feeding back through the DAC PS to effect the DAC's clocks.
  


kazsud said:


> So just to understand what this thing does?
> 
> 
> - Cleaning dirty usb power.
> ...


 
 Yes to the first, the second is more complex - it has to do with reclocking the USB signal, reducing jitter, and using excellent Crystek clocks to create a 'cleaner', and better isolated audio digital output.  And filtering out PC and USB processing 'Packet Noise' from the DAC.
  


padawan38 said:


> Hi
> 
> Just received my SU-1, nicely built, more heavy vs Breeze and Gustard.
> Immediately plugged, sound already more "dense" vs others above.
> ...


 
 Nice!


----------



## FredA

This is my i2s f-1, for those who could be interested:

[ATTACHMENT=3060]image.jpg (1,051k. jpg file)[/ATTACHMENT]

After 24 hours, it sounds about perfect. Compared to spdif;

 - highs are improved
 - no harshness difference (none whatsoever in both cases)
 - more ambience details
 - more natural sound
 -richer pianos tones
 - a little less bass. 
 -the overall balance is a little bit better, the sound is less colored and more accurate.

 Not much to criticize.. The highs are all there without the slightest hint of hardness or exageratiion. The i2s input of the master-7 allows hearing about any improvement.


----------



## Albrecht

FredA
 FWIW....
  
 Nice work. Making the I2s cable as short as possible is a great way to go IMO.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## FredA

albrecht said:


> FredA
> FWIW....
> 
> Nice work. Making the I2s cable as short as possible is a great way to go IMO.
> ...




Yes, better than using i2s over hdmi in principle. Thanks.


----------



## bButcher

Hi FredA,
  
 You might try disable PLL on Master 7 - "http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-7/M7EN_Use.htm", since F-1 has much better clock than M7's.
 If you are more adventureful, you can also try enable BYPASS on M7, this will let F-1 (almost) directly talk to PCM1704s.
  
 Cheers


----------



## FredA

bbutcher said:


> Hi FredA,
> 
> You might try disable PLL on Master 7 - "http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-7/M7EN_Use.htm", since F-1 has much better clock than M7's.
> If you are more adventureful, you can also try enable BYPASS on M7, this will let F-1 (almost) directly talk to PCM1704s.
> ...




Yes, thanks. I already have the pll disabled. This way, you can have jitter way below the specified 50ps of the spdif receivers. And the improvement in the highs is a sign of this as far as i can tell.

I don't bypass the dsp but i upsample all 44/16 audio files to 48/24 and have audirvana use over a million sample time window to do the job.. It is almost like hearing native hires audio really.


----------



## tedzz

rb2013 said:


> I hear that these new super capacitors are pretty amazing - but have never tried them. http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-zpm
> 
> There should be a current draw during burnin - so the caps get worked.
> 
> Speaking of - I had good success replacing the stock ones with Nichicon HW's.


 
 Ok, I posted a reply but it didn't appear cause there's a link to a website and i also cannot upload my pic here. quite frustrating.
  
 Anyway, the cap upgrade sounds like a good idea.
  
 I opened up my DC30W and the circuit looks like this one when you search on ebay: "TeraDak DC30W TOUCH linear power supply DC5V 3A"
  
 There are 2 big caps and 4 medium sized ones.
  
 Which caps should i be replacing?
  
 Also I only found nichicon FW, KW, SW....but no HW. Could you please show me a good website where i can order them?
 If you can't post a link here, please send it me a pm?
 Thanks rob


----------



## Padawan38

Hello,
  
 Reading interesting things here about the master clock usage.
 My DAC doesn't have I2S input (I use the AES/EBU) but it has a master clock one.
  
 Do you think using the Master clock output from the SU-1 connected to the DAC is an improvement ?
  
 Asking the question because today I don't have any cable for this master clock linkage.
 As well, I need to move a jumper into the DAC to make it live.
  
  
 Thanks for feedback
  
 Rgds
 P


----------



## bimmer100

I just got two su-1's tonight and 5 f1's!
I'm excited to spend some time with them.
The 

The regulator for the psu....maybe I will mod one of them


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> I just got two su-1's tonight and 5 f1's!
> I'm excited to spend some time with them.
> The
> 
> The regulator for the psu....maybe I will mod one of them




Why so many? Are you gonna mod them all? Looking forward to your findings. Keep us posted.


----------



## rb2013

tedzz said:


> Ok, I posted a reply but it didn't appear cause there's a link to a website and i also cannot upload my pic here. quite frustrating.
> 
> Anyway, the cap upgrade sounds like a good idea.
> 
> ...


 

 I replaced all of them.  The large blue ones are 35V 3300uf, the small gray ones are 25V 1500uf.
  
 You can find the Nichicon HW here at digikey - note the 10,000hr rating vs 2,000hr for the stock Pannie SU.
  
 http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/capacitors/aluminum-capacitors/131081?k=&pkeyword=&pv13=89&pv13=157&FV=fffc01ed%2Cfc01ea%2Cffecc985%2Cfff40002%2Cfff80009&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
  
 Just be very careful - lethal voltages inside a power supply.  Best to know what you are doing when attempting this kind of mod.


----------



## Luckbad

Ah sweet! You can get the Singxer SU-1 and F-1 from a US distributor now:
  
 http://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxersu1/


----------



## Padawan38

Have you seen this new comer ?

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/FUN01-XU208-XMOS-USB-Audio-Digital-Interface-XLR-AES-fiber-coaxial-LPS-L168-2-/122070100823?hash=item1c6bf1eb57:g:8t4AAOSwJqpXoJV-


----------



## rb2013

A new superclock on the market:
  
 http://www.ndk.com/en/ad/2013/001/pdf/c_NH47M47LA_e.pdf
  
 NDK Ultra-Low-Phase-Noise OCXO DuCULoN®


----------



## RickyV

abartels said:


> You should try the [COLOR=666666]*Nanophosphate®
> ANR26650M1-B *[/COLOR]from A123 systems ( http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-ion-cells-26650-cylindrical-cell.htm )
> They are well known for their exceptional performance in audio gear.




Hi,

Finally in stock in the hobbyking eu wearhouse, netherlands, Zippy lifepo4, 4200mAh batteries. Bought a 9.9V and a 13.2V, The 9.9v is to power the Dexa regulators,5v and 3.3v of the second part of the F1. The 13.2v is to power a SPower HC low noise regulator to power the recovery and the first part of the F1. Both batteries cost about 75 euro's, a bit less than the A123's. 
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/catalog/Z42004S-30(1).jpg


----------



## tedzz

rb2013 said:


> I replaced all of them.  The large blue ones are 35V 3300uf, the small gray ones are 25V 1500uf.
> 
> You can find the Nichicon HW here at digikey - note the 10,000hr rating vs 2,000hr for the stock Pannie SU.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey Rob,
 Thanks a lot for the link 
 On my DC30W, the big caps are rated at 4700uf, 25V(may be 35V, not sure). Can I use 3300uf?
  
 Another thing, i just got the f-1 today and comparing it with the new DXIO Pro3z, the soundstage of f-1 is much larger and more natural, nice extension on the top and mid range. the sound travels further and the bass is much more defined and also are enormous and fills up the space. Even being fed through a pc power supply, it is definitely better to my ears.
  
 Anyway, my dac only accepts up to pcm 192 kHz on coax, currently i am downsampling everything higher than that to 192 kHz on Jriver. However I see on the f-1 box, it does have the word dsd. So my question is, is there another setting for Jriver apart from the downsampling that i do, which might benefit the SQ?


----------



## BucketInABucket

tedzz said:


> Hey Rob,
> Thanks a lot for the link
> On my DC30W, the big caps are rated at 4700uf, 25V(may be 35V, not sure). Can I use 3300uf?


 
 You never want to swap in a smaller capacitance than what is used unless you know exactly what you're doing. You can swap in a larger value, but not smaller.


----------



## rb2013

tedzz said:


> Hey Rob,
> Thanks a lot for the link
> On my DC30W, the big caps are rated at 4700uf, 25V(may be 35V, not sure). Can I use 3300uf?
> 
> ...


 

 TeraDak is constantly changing their configurations (I have two different DC-30W).  So go with the same value caps they have installed.
  
 Here the two I have:


  
  
 Interesting comparing the new Pro3z and the F-1, thanks for the report.
  
 The DSD is available through DoP SPDIF or i2s at a higher rate.  So you can run DSD through the SPDIF, but you are limited to 64.  I think you have you rJRiver set right, although I'm a FB2K guy.


----------



## danny_66

padawan38 said:


> Have you seen this new comer ?
> 
> http://www.ebay.fr/itm/FUN01-XU208-XMOS-USB-Audio-Digital-Interface-XLR-AES-fiber-coaxial-LPS-L168-2-/122070100823?hash=item1c6bf1eb57:g:8t4AAOSwJqpXoJV-


 
  
 Looks great !!!
 Seems to have also isolation and a reclocker like the F-1.
 But also a very good linear power supply and nice cases 
  
 Looks like the best candidate now.


----------



## bimmer100

danny_66 said:


> Looks great !!!
> Seems to have also isolation and a reclocker like the F-1.
> But also a very good linear power supply and nice cases
> 
> Looks like the best candidate now.



Nice find, but the singxer su-1 blows that away in every regard. 
This is a nice find though. It just that is has cheap kds clocks, not crystek femto level. Also it has el cheapo bingZi transformer. Su-1 has talema trafo. Likely the regulator they use is cheap too. It doesn't have HDMI i2s for those who care. Can't tell but I don't even see any transformer for the spdif, but at least it's got some nice C0G smd caps used. Otherwise the BOM is mediocre. I would like to know the specifics of the LDO used. The idea of two cases is good though! Better shielding.

I personally would choose the f1 or definitely the su-1 over this new comer.


And the su-1 just came out in silver too so you have color choice with su-1 now! I just sold a silver one and might of been the first one.  I am going to mod my black su-1 with a belleson regulator and possibly a Simon tuned sealed transformer. 

The f1 in the new case is really hard to beat for the price. It's one thing I wish would be to have option for DC input in the case. I'm going to ask/request Leter@singXer to release a model like this  I'm sure it would sell well.


----------



## Padawan38

hi,

Using the Su-1 since 3 days, don't know whether the burn-in is finished or not but the sound is still improving and already amazing.
This is really a big step up over U8.

To me those usb interfaces really make the difference in pc digital music, maybe as important as changing for an upgraded DAC.
Things are moving well !

Rgds


----------



## InsanityOne

Hmm, it would seem that a lot of you already beat me to the punch here but, what is the general consensus on the new XU208 chip? I am particularly interested in a unit made by Chinese manufacturer "Singxer." The unit is called the SU-1 and looks like this:
 

  

  
 As far as I know the only place that these are available is at: http://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxersu1/ but I really want to hear some impressions from those of you who own / use one!
  
 Also, shoutout to @bimmer100 (the DDC guru himself) for showing me this neat site! It looks like they are stocking a lot of exclusive gear / brands that I have never seen before.
  
 - InsanityOne


----------



## bimmer100

I am far from a ddc guru. But thanks for the shout out... Funny, this thread has covered the f1 and us-1. Maybe you missed talking about the su-1. there are a lot of really good ddc's on this thread and thanks to rb2013 for taking the time to review many of them. He deserves the credit. I have only reviewed half the ddc's he has. My budget allows for only so much. But I think the Su-1 is a nice find and hard to beat for the price.

I think many have moved to the rednet now, or those who can afford it  it sounds quite nice with dual mutec's in line with it. I just can't spend that much on a ddc imho. I hear leter@singxer is looking into offering an aoip solution in the future. It's great to stay on top of all this tech. I'm using the su-1 and will be modding mine with a belleson regulator


----------



## classfolkphile

bimmer100 said:


> I am far from a ddc guru. But thanks for the shout out... Funny, this thread has covered the f1 and us-1. Maybe you missed talking about the su-1. there are a lot of really good ddc's on this thread and thanks to rb2013 for taking the time to review many of them. He deserves the credit. I have only reviewed half the ddc's he has. My budget allows for only so much. But I think the Su-1 is a nice find and hard to beat for the price.
> 
> I think many have moved to the rednet now, or those who can afford it
> 
> ...


 

 Have you opened up the SU-1? Could you share pictures of the inside?


----------



## InsanityOne

rb2013 said:


> Yes the SU-1


 
  
  


classfolkphile said:


> Have you opened up the SU-1? Could you share pictures of the inside?


 
  
 As you can see above, @rb2013 posted some great pictures of the interior of the SU-1 back on page 174 of this very thread!
  


bimmer100 said:


> I am far from a ddc guru. But thanks for the shout out... Funny, this thread has covered the f1 and us-1. Maybe you missed talking about the su-1. there are a lot of really good ddc's on this thread and thanks to rb2013 for taking the time to review many of them. He deserves the credit. I have only reviewed half the ddc's he has. My budget allows for only so much. But I think the Su-1 is a nice find and hard to beat for the price.
> 
> I think many have moved to the rednet now, or those who can afford it
> 
> ...


 
  
 Dual Mutec MC-3+'s in the chain? I thought you only wanted one right after the RedNet? Where does the other one go? Did I miss out on some important piece of information somewhere?
  
 So PC (Dante Virtual Sound Card) -Ethernet Cable-> RedNet 3 -Toslink Cable-> Mutec MC-3+ -Toslink Cable-> DAC? Where is the second MC-3+ in there and why is it needed? The only thing I can think of is if someone was using it to provide a WCLK to the RedNet 3? And if that was the case why wouldn't they get something like the Tascam CG-1000 instead?
  
 - InsanityOne


----------



## rb2013

danny_66 said:


> Looks great !!!
> Seems to have also isolation and a reclocker like the F-1.
> But also a very good linear power supply and nice cases
> 
> Looks like the best candidate now.


 
 That is an interesting looking unit - NDK clocks, CPLD isolation, DC input, decent stock PS.  I2S and AES output, as well as SPDIF coax and optical.  All for $240 shipped.  Nice!
  
 Kinda surprised it took this long for another XU208 to arrive on the scene


----------



## rb2013

insanityone said:


> Hmm, it would seem that a lot of you already beat me to the punch here but, what is the general consensus on the new XU208 chip? I am particularly interested in a unit made by Chinese manufacturer "Singxer." The unit is called the SU-1 and looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ... 
 The Su-1 was available quite awhile ago on Baidu, but for a while now all over Ebay with a buyers guarantee.


----------



## rb2013

insanityone said:


> As you can see above, @rb2013 posted some great pictures of the interior of the SU-1 back on page 174 of this very thread!
> 
> 
> Dual Mutec MC-3+'s in the chain? I thought you only wanted one right after the RedNet? Where does the other one go? Did I miss out on some important piece of information somewhere?
> ...


 
 There's more info on AOIP on my other thread.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio
  
 My current sota AOIP setup is a RN3 fed by a Cerious Tech Graphene cable from a Art Audio PB4X4Pro that is fed by a Audience aR1p.  The RN3's SPDIF is reclocked by a Mutec MC-3+ USB (Cerious Graphene) connected by a BJC BNC cable.  The RN3 is reclocked by ext wClock by an Antelope OXCO OCX (Cerious Graphene) using a Oyaide BNC.
  
 On the PC I'm using a totl PCIe Ethernet card with Intel chipset - that feeds a FMC fiber ethernet sender/reciever before the RN3.  Both FMC's have linear power supplies.
  
 Note: There is a German reviewer that has experimented with mulitple Mutec MC-3+ boxes and states the MC-3+ USB (which has an improved clocking scheme) was equal to THREE of the non-USB versions piggybacked.
  
 I compared the Mutec MC-3+USB as a Wclock and it was inferior to the excellent internal RN3 clock.  Now the Oven Controlled Oscillator Antelope OCX is in a whole other league.
  
 To bring you up to date - the last piece of the puzzle - would be to fed a 10Mhz Rubidium clock into both the Antelope and the Mutec.  The atomic clock would act as a discipliner for the Mutec 1G XO and Antelope OXCO.  We've had much discussions on the different atomic clocks.  My preference is the Stanford Research PERF10.


----------



## rb2013

Now some of the new folks here may have missed one of the greatest addons to USB.  I still run a USB chain in my office system.
  
 This is the use of a GB LAN ethernet ISO audio USB extender made by ICRON and rebranded as well by Startech.  This unit made a huge improvement in USB SQ and is what lead me to AOIP.
  
 http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/lan/usb-2-0-ranger-2304ge-lan/
  
 Here is my current USB chain:
 Just the data chain:
PC>PPA V2 USB card (TeraDak X1 - Nichicon HW caps)>LH Labs 2G Split USB cable>Startech LEX>BJC CAT6 UTP 550Mhz>Startech REX (with one Jitterbug - Breeze 24VDC LPS+DC iPurifer)>LH Labs 2G split USB cable (data only leg)>W4S Recovery(TeraDak LPS DC-30W+Cerious Graphene PC+ DC iPurifier)>Curious 200mm USB Link>iPur 2>F-1>Audio Sen Silver Statement SPDIF 1.5M RCA>APL DAC
  
  
Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - they are not percentages).  The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
 
Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:
  
 REDNET 3/Cerious Graphene/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF)/Antelope OCX (RN wClock)           270
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/Audience au24 se digital cable                               250
REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF reclocker)/AS Sliver Statement dig cable        240
REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord                                                                               220
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB               170
Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord                                                        155
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2                                                   145
PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen                                                               135
Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious                                                                                   135
DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious                                                                      130
Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2                                                    125
PUC2 Lite - USB power                                                                                          110
Singxer F-1  Stock feed                                                                                          110 
Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen                                                                   109
Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene                                                                      108
  Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                                                                              100
Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                                                                                 95
Hydra Z with LPS                                                                                                    92
Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)                                                                             85
Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                                                                                          81
Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                                                                                    76
Gustard U12 stock                                                                                                   72
iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                                                                                      65
Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                                                                                      65
M2Tech EVO with LPS                                                                                              60
Audiophileo 2  USB Power                                                                                         50
M2Tech Hiface                                                                                                         40
  
Note the two major leaps - one by adding the ICRON/Startech GB LAN Iso Audio USB Extender into the chain.  Then the bigger leap away from USB completely to the REDNET3 Dante AES67 AOIP.  The Mutec 3+ did not help as an ext Word Clock to the RD3 - but after the RD3 as a SPDIF reclocker - excellent.


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> Now some of the new folks here may have missed one of the greatest addons to USB.  I still run a USB chain in my office system.
> 
> This is the use of a GB LAN ethernet ISO audio USB extender made by ICRON and rebranded as well by Startech.  This unit made a huge improvement in USB SQ and is what lead me to AOIP.
> 
> ...




Rob you should build that all into 1 clean box and market it


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


>


 

 Thanks for that - we're trying to come up with a cheap DANTE AOIP solution.  BURL sells those Brooklyn II cards for $250 - just need the interface...'just'!  LOL!
  
 http://burlaudio.com/products/b2-bomber-dac


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> Hey Mike whaz up?
> 
> Following your developement on the Ravena Streamer - looks very promising - just wish my DACs had USB boards!
> 
> ...




Awesome! Sounds great! That looks like a killer solution. We are on the home stretch for the AES67 VSC. It will even be able to talk to your Burl  anything AES 67 compliant.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Awesome! Sounds great! That looks like a killer solution. We are on the home stretch for the AES67 VSC. It will even be able to talk to your Burl
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sweet!  I expect in the next yr or so many proaudio DACs to be AES67 compliant.  That retro fit on a TotalDAC for your solution sounds very appealing - would that apply to their tube DAC as well?


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> Sweet!  I expect in the next yr or so many proaudio DACs to be AES67 compliant.  That retro fit on a TotalDAC for your solution sounds very appealing - would that apply to their tube DAC as well?




Well I might have to cut the Q&A short here. I probably already crossed the line. You know where to find me for an un-regulated Q&A session


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Well I might have to cut the Q&A short here. I probably already crossed the line. You know where to find me for an un-regulated Q+A session


 

 Will connect there - smooth sailing


----------



## FredA

danny_66 said:


> Looks great !!!
> Seems to have also isolation and a reclocker like the F-1.
> But also a very good linear power supply and nice cases
> 
> Looks like the best candidate now.




Looks like a great bargain, considering the design and the 2 cases. Missing a Talema transfo however. Rj45 i2s, very tempting to me. 

If anyone wants my crystek talema breeze, pm me. I will let it go at a fair price.

For now, i am delighted with my rj45 i2s f-1 driven by a wyrd. It's so good with the highs, it is almost ridiculous considering i paid less than 200usb all material included. But you need a good supply and good usb cables as well, so one has to take this into account.


----------



## kazsud

I have about 7-8 hours on my SU-1 which has one hour w/ a aes/ebu cable. So far the coax soulds the best and the aes/ebu doesn't sound good at all....

Has anyone tried the bnc cable?


----------



## Luckbad

kazsud said:


> I have about 7-8 hours on my SU-1 which has one hour w/ a aes/ebu cable. So far the coax soulds the best and the aes/ebu doesn't sound good at all....
> 
> Has anyone tried the bnc cable?


 
  
 I've used BNC and RCA and both sound great.


----------



## tedzz

bucketinabucket said:


> You never want to swap in a smaller capacitance than what is used unless you know exactly what you're doing. You can swap in a larger value, but not smaller.


 

 Thanks for the heads up


----------



## FredA

freda said:


> Looks like a great bargain, considering the design and the 2 cases. Missing a Talema transfo however. Rj45 i2s, very tempting to me.
> 
> If anyone wants my crystek talema breeze, pm me. I will let it go at a fair price.
> 
> For now, i am delighted with my rj45 i2s f-1 driven by a wyrd. It's so good with the highs, it is almost ridiculous considering i paid less than 200usb all material included. But you need a good supply and good usb cables as well, so one has to take this into account.




But then again, this interface use rather ordinary kds oscillators. Two weak points with the bingze transformer. I don't see the high-quality output transformers for spdif, not that you need any for i2s. But for the price, it is very interesting.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Now some of the new folks here may have missed one of the greatest addons to USB.  I still run a USB chain in my office system.
> 
> This is the use of a GB LAN ethernet ISO audio USB extender made by ICRON and rebranded as well by Startech.  This unit made a huge improvement in USB SQ and is what lead me to AOIP.
> 
> ...


 
  
 HI Rob
  
 Adding a Mutec mc-3+ after the F-1 (reclocking spdif signals) where will it sit in the table ? or rather its better to go for Rednet D16.
  
 the reason I am suggesting mutec is because dante is still evolving.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> HI Rob
> 
> Adding a Mutec mc-3+ after the F-1 (reclocking spdif signals) where will it sit in the table ? or rather its better to go for Rednet D16.
> 
> the reason I am suggesting mutec is because dante is still evolving.


 

 Great question - it did about the same as for the RN3 - I would rate at 190.  I had a W4S Remedy -  which was good too but not near the Mutec as SPDIF reclocker.
  
 Even with the ICRON GN LAN USB isolating the USB and the Mutec 3 as SPDIF reclocker - the F-1 did not match the RN3 alone.
  
 For me - I'd say a RN3 + a Mutec 3+ USB would be better then a RND16 for approx the same money.  I have not had a D16 - but imagine it sounds about the same as a RN3.


----------



## jabbr

ccschua said:


> ... because dante is still evolving.


 
 could you explain how Dante is evolving?
 What changes in Dante have you heared of?


----------



## rb2013

jabbr said:


> could you explain how Dante is evolving?
> What changes in Dante have you heared of?


 

 The latest was the move to full AES67 compatibility.  This was part of the move to the Brooklyn II card from the Brooklyn I.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> The latest was the move to full AES67 compatibility.  This was part of the move to the Brooklyn II card from the Brooklyn I.


 
 do you know of plans to evolve any further?


----------



## Luckbad

jabbr said:


> do you know of plans to evolve any further?


 
  
@ccschua: Of course it will evolve further. Dante is evolving, as is USB. This entire thread was created after USB evolved from XMOS U8 to XMOS XU208, which to me was pretty huge step up in quality. There are half a dozen legitimate USB solutions that are constantly evolving.
  
 Dante is just one of the AOIP solutions and it's not nearly in the infancy that we like to think it's in. It's been available for years, we just didn't use it as audiophiles until a few months ago.


----------



## rb2013

luckbad said:


> @ccschua: Of course it will evolve further. Dante is evolving, as is USB. This entire thread was created after USB evolved from XMOS U8 to XMOS XU208, which to me was pretty huge step up in quality. There are half a dozen legitimate USB solutions that are constantly evolving.
> 
> Dante is just one of the AOIP solutions and it's not nearly in the infancy that we like to think it's in. It's been available for years, we just didn't use it as audiophiles until a few months ago.


 

 Yes - to compete with Ravenna - Dante will expand the SR through 384k.  This is driven from the studio side.  A coming update to Dante in the fall will be an upgrade to control center to allow SR following to be unlocked by a security code.  BURL told me that many studio engineers want this.  It was locked out by the needs of concert engineers - as a SR following allowance could wreak havoc on a concert system by an inadvertent SR change by one of the LAN devices.  The two main constituents for REDNET gear are concert/auditorium/churches and recording studios.

 This is not part of the AES67 std - as that is only 96k now.  But AES67 is only a min set of std and most important a common communications protocol on a shared LAN.
  
 Of course Ravenna has already exceeded this as has Dante, but Ravenna is ahead in the race.
  
 But the most important bottomline is Ravenna is only available as part of very expensive DAC  - Horus and NADAC.  Where as Dante has a turnkey DVS for only $30 and the Brooklyn and Ultimo turnkey cards and chips.  So it's a much easier solution for DAC and DDC manufacturers to implement.
  
 And Dante is the only DDC higher res AOIP available now through the REDNET series.
  
 Also the BURL DAC is way cheaper (like 1/4) of the cost of an NADAC.  Available right now.


----------



## InsanityOne

Off-Topic: So with the advent of fairly rapid "upgrades" to USB audio, does anyone think we will see similar upgrades to AOIP anytime soon? (e.g., Rednet V2 hardware or something like that?)
  
 - InsanityOne


----------



## rb2013

insanityone said:


> Off-Topic: So with the advent of fairly rapid "upgrades" to USB audio, does anyone think we will see similar upgrades to AOIP anytime soon? (e.g., Rednet V2 hardware or something like that?)
> 
> - InsanityOne


 

 Over on the AOIP thread much has been reported on ext OXCO WClocks, FMC fiber ethernet, SPDIF reclockers - the upgrading is already fully under way.


----------



## kazsud

My impressions of the aes/ebu not sounding good was because I had put the su-1 right on top my dac. 
  
 Now the aes/ebu sounds a little better than the coax.


----------



## kazsud

So now I'm trying to figure out how to get my fios tv audio and Apple TV audio to go through the su-1. Only thing I can think of is optical of those going optical in my mbp then usb out to su-1.
  
 Has anyone done something similar to this yet? All of my equipment is in one place at my tv.


----------



## mordicai

Ive got an F1 coming. Should I put my Regen between the Mac and the F1 or just sell the regen. Its a bit of a steep leaning curve for me.


----------



## Jerryfan

kazsud said:


> My impressions of the aes/ebu not sounding good was because I had put the su-1 right on top my dac.
> 
> Now the aes/ebu sounds a little better than the coax.




This effects the sound? My yulong u18 converter is sitting right on top of my yulong d18 DAC.


----------



## kazsud

mordicai said:


> Ive got an F1 coming. Should I put my Regen between the Mac and the F1 or just sell the regen. Its a bit of a steep leaning curve for me.




Yes


----------



## Jerryfan

kazsud said:


> Yes



Good answer


----------



## mordicai

Thanks for the advice


----------



## somestranger26

kazsud said:


> So now I'm trying to figure out how to get my fios tv audio and Apple TV audio to go through the su-1. Only thing I can think of is optical of those going optical in my mbp then usb out to su-1.
> 
> Has anyone done something similar to this yet? All of my equipment is in one place at my tv.


 

 I would just connect them directly to your DAC. Adding extra conversion steps is more likely to negatively impact sound quality than to improve it.


----------



## Padawan38

Hello,
  
 About the outputs, In my mind the quality hierarchy would be :
 Optical < Coax-BNC < AES/EBU < I2s
  
  
 Now I'm wondering about the following :
 The SU-1 has usb isolation so guess there would be no benefit to add usb isolator but what about "reclocking" add-on ...
 - Does it worth to add "reclock" USB -> USB item between the PC and the SU-1 ?
 - If yes, what Is the best among Regen, W4s Recovery, etc ... ?
  
 Thx a lot
  
 Rgds
 P
  
 NB : to me Intona, Schitt Wyrd are not reclockers but isolators.


----------



## jabbr

padawan38 said:


> Hello,
> ...
> - If yes, what Is the best among Regen, W4s Recovery, etc ... ?


 
 Mutec MC-3+USB


----------



## somestranger26

padawan38 said:


> Hello,
> 
> About the outputs, In my mind the quality hierarchy would be :
> Optical < Coax-BNC < AES/EBU < I2s
> ...


 

 Just because the SU-1 has some isolation on the board does not mean it wouldn't benefit from additional isolation, like the Startech Gigabit LAN that has been discussed at great length. It most likely improves SQ because of LAN isolation, and is supposed to be far better than any of the other gizmos.


----------



## Padawan38

Thx for your note.
  
 Erratum, seems Wyrd and Intona as reclockers as well (Wyrd : there's a clock on the back on the PCB ; Intona "
  The 7054-based USB Hi-Speed Isolator is a phy-level receiver/isolator/reclocker/repacketizer working at a bidirectional ...")

  
 About Startech Gigabit LAN , where in the "chain" do you put this item ?


----------



## stigb

padawan38 said:


> Thx for your note.
> 
> Erratum, seems Wyrd and Intona as reclockers as well (Wyrd : there's a clock on the back on the PCB ; Intona "
> The 7054-based USB Hi-Speed Isolator is a phy-level receiver/isolator/reclocker/repacketizer working at a bidirectional ...")
> ...


 
 I put my Startech Gigabit LAN between the computers USB-card and my Singxer SU-1.


----------



## Padawan38

.. ok usb output from the PC but then ... how do you plug it to the SU-1 ?


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> Hello,
> 
> About the outputs, In my mind the quality hierarchy would be :
> Optical < Coax-BNC < AES/EBU < I2s
> ...


 

 The SU-1 and the F-1 (they use similar isolation schemes) are not galvanically isolated from the USB ground neither are the data lines.  Only the SPDIF is isolated.
  
 You would need a Intona or ICRON/Startech GB LAN USB extender - or the new PS Audio LANRover.  My experience with the ICRON/Startech has been excellent on the F-1.

 The Schiit Wyrd doesn't offer GI, but replaces the noisy PC USB +5VDC power with a linear, well regulated one.


----------



## ccschua

Finally my pro3Z arrives and surprise it came with battery box.

The unit looks no difference except that its in gold.

Hookup and replace it with singxer.

It gives slight edge in detail and texture info. 

Then put it the AA battery. This is where the funs starts.

You really hav to give it a listen.


----------



## rb2013

To clear up some confusion on this Galvanic Isolation issue.
  
 There are two connections that need GI one is from the PC USB to the DDC and the other is from the DDC to the DAC on the SPDIF coax.
  
 The Singxer X-1 uses the std Murata in the latest version, the older X-1 used a Chinese isolator - this is for the SPDIF coax

  
 The F-1 uses a Xilinx FPGA and TI isolators in lieu of the Murata's (note the lack of the Murata box).  It does offer the advantage of placing the clocks on the 'clean' side of the board - this does improve the isolation by providing GI from the USB power - but not on the USB data lines.  This form of isolation becomes less important if you feed the F-1 a separate clean power source then the PC USB.  This can be done with a split USB cable, or using a Remedy, Regen or Wyrd which substitute a well regulated low noise power feed to the USB power lines.

  
  
 The SU-1 uses a similar scheme for SPDIF isolation - but adding BNC, Coax optical and AES to the outputs (also note the lack of Murata boxes).

  
 This followed a similar scheme on the Tanly (no Singxer was not the first):

  
 And the Hydra Z (using a SPARTAN 6 FPGA):

  
  
  
 Here is the implementation on the Breeze DU-U8 (note the Murata boxes)

  
 The Melodious MX-U8:

  
 Gustard U12 (using the Pulse isolators)

  
 DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> Finally my pro3Z arrives and surprise it came with battery box.
> 
> The unit looks no difference except that its in gold.
> 
> ...


 

 Do you have a board photo?  I'd like to add it to my collection


----------



## ccschua

it will take me some time to open up the board, however this is XM 216 - 512
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> it will take me some time to open up the board, however this is XM 216 - 512
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


 

 Yes I looked it up on the DIOYinHK site - they used to show board photos on the Pro3a, but don't on the new version.


----------



## stigb

padawan38 said:


> .. ok usb output from the PC but then ... how do you plug it to the SU-1 ?


 
 Output from the Startech Gigabit LAN on the reciving side is USB. So USB input to the Singxer SU-1.


----------



## Padawan38

I'm lost ...
so how do you plug the PC usb output to the Startech ?


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> I'm lost ...
> so how do you plug the PC usb output to the Startech ?


 

 This might help - the ICRON/Startech GB LAN USB extender system has two boxes one recieves the USB input from the PC (this is called the LEX) and the other box outputs USB to the DDC/DAC (this is called the REX).
  
 In between the LEX and REX is a CAT6 Ethernet cable.  This provides complete galvanic isolation on both the USB power AND the data lines.

 The PC USB noise - both power and data (packet noise) are eliminated.  The USB data stream is completely reconstructed from a IP Ethernet data stream.
  
 This is done by very special ASIC chips.
  
 Really remarkable technology.


----------



## Padawan38

Ok understood !
So LEX and REX, so you need 2 (same) items to make it work ? .


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> Ok understood !
> So LEX and REX, so you need 2 (same) items to make it work ? .


 

 Yes  - they come as a pair (unlike FMC fiber)


----------



## Padawan38

is it this item ?
https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY


----------



## stigb

padawan38 said:


> is it this item ?
> https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY


 
 Yes, thats the StarTech that I use. I also use my existing network I have at home so I don't connect the two boxes with a CAT6 cable.


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> is it this item ?
> https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY


 

 That's the exact model I have - bought from Amazon.  I would consider selling it at a good price - as I'm moving to Ethernet only computer audio. 
  
 PM me if interested.  I have the original box, packing materials and cables.  I have a few nice CAT6 cables I can include.


----------



## Padawan38

Hello,
  
 I have tried to understand which item would be a benefit in addition to the SU-1.
 What I have understood is that the SU-1 is a good reclocker and prodives good output to the DAC thanks to its linear supply and output isolation.
 Now it lacks galvanic isolation on the USB input.
  
 I have tried to list the USB input/output items and their features, to me they can deliver 3 important characteristics :
 - provide a good quality 5v
 - reclocking
 - galvanic isolation
  
 If I'm correct, adding galvanic isolation would be an improvement, then having a good quality 5v I can't tell the benefit ... ?
  
 I have understood the following items does not have galvanic isolation so would be less interesting in addition to the SU-1, except to cumulate reclocking items, but for which benefit ... ?

 Schiit Wyrd
 Uptone Regen
 W4S recovery
  
 Thus the products that seems to be value added to the SU-1 would be the ones that provide galvanic isolation :

 Intona
 PS Audio LANRover
 Icron USB extenders
 Startech USB extenders
  
 What do you think about my reflexion ?
  
 Thx a lot
 P


----------



## FredA

padawan38 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have tried to understand which item would be a benefit in addition to the SU-1.
> What I have understood is that the SU-1 is a good reclocker and prodives good output to the DAC thanks to its linear supply and output isolation.
> ...




Clean power is essential to maximize the performance of any hifi device. A clock signal is embeded in an spdif signal and will have addtional phase noise if amplitude noise is contained in it.

To maximize the performance of any ddc, you need clean power and isolation from the pc. Perfect isolation from the pc implies galvanic isolation to prevent common noise to be transfered from it to the ddc (noisy ground). In that same regard, the pc should be connected through a different power distributor than the rest of your chain because it is the most noisy component. 

You can chain devices so that you get all the required elements, clean power and isolation.

In my case: mac mini > jitterbug > intona > wyrd > f -1.

There is another benefit to using a relocking device just before the ddc, like i do. It seems that it facilitates data transfer. This reduces the cpu requirement in the ddc and lower the noise floor, which translate in better sound.


----------



## r11bordo

A good way to have a clean power on these little boxes is the Ifi iPower. I tried one on my Squeezebox Touch and on a W4S Recovery, the result is very improved regarding à Teradak PSU.
So, I'm hesitating between Singxer F-1 and Dxio Pro3z in replacement of my Audiophilleo but are we sure these 2 USB interfaces doing their job better than an Audiophilleo (I own this interface with the battery modulation and this interface must be considered only with this option)?
For information, my source is composed with iPower->Touch->Curious Cable USB->W4S Recovery->Audiophilleo 2 with Battery modul.
Thx


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have tried to understand which item would be a benefit in addition to the SU-1.
> What I have understood is that the SU-1 is a good reclocker and prodives good output to the DAC thanks to its linear supply and output isolation.
> ...




Yes you have that right.  Now since the SU-1 has it's own built in LPS - the need for a good external one is not important like it is for the F-1.  This is were the Wyrd, Regen and Recovery are most benefical.  They all allow the fed of a high quality LPS to the F-1, additionally they provide some low noise power regulation.
 
Now be very careful as it's one model of the many the Icron/Startech USB extenders that provide the SQ boost that I and many others have heard - the one that is GB LAN compatible and does iso audio devices.  Like this one from Startech:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HFGQESY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=
 
The Startech two devices REX and LEX allow for powering by linear power supplies.  On the REX (the side that outputs USB to the DDC), this could also act as a USB power delivery to the F-1 or like devices using a USB power feed.


----------



## rb2013

r11bordo said:


> A good way to have a clean power on these little boxes is the Ifi iPower. I tried one on my Squeezebox Touch and on a W4S Recovery, the result is very improved regarding à Teradak PSU.
> So, I'm hesitating between Singxer F-1 and Dxio Pro3z in replacement of my Audiophilleo but are we sure these 2 USB interfaces doing their job better than an Audiophilleo (I own this interface with the battery modulation and this interface must be considered only with this option)?
> For information, my source is composed with iPower->Touch->Curious Cable USB->W4S Recovery->Audiophilleo 2 with Battery modul.
> Thx


 

 I have tried the iFi iPower as well, having a 9VDC and 5VDC (in fact will be listing a 5VDC version today in the classifieds), and I found in comparison the TeraDaks much better in almost every way.  This is on the F-1, DXIO Pro3a, X-1, powering the Startech and FMC fiber units.
  
 The iPower is still a SMPS so feeds noise back into the power lines - although I found it does sound better then a normal SMPS.
  
 As for the Audiophilleo - I had one - see my rankings.


----------



## r11bordo

rb2013 said:


> I have tried the iFi iPower as well, having a 9VDC and 5VDC (in fact will be listing a 5VDC version today in the classifieds), and I found in comparison the TeraDaks much better in almost every way.  This is on the F-1, DXIO Pro3a, X-1, powering the Startech and FMC fiber units.
> 
> The iPower is still a SMPS so feeds noise back into the power lines - although I found it does sound better then a normal SMPS.
> 
> As for the Audiophilleo - I had one - see my rankings.



Thanks. For iPower, we haven't obtained the same results.
For your Audiophilleo, I saw your ranking and I understand it only if you have tested the Audiophilleo without modul battery because without battery, the Audiophilleo interface is not very good. Do you own the battery modul ?


----------



## drkingweeb

hello,
 just got an f-1 xmos, trying to set it up to listen to Spotify,no sound from dac my set up is : pc>supra usb cable> w4s recovery (amb labs 9v ps}> short connector>f-1> w4s dac2dsdse> ncore amps. no sound with Spotify, sound with JRMC 21. suggestions?
 will the f-1 work with aq SBT?
 thanks,
 drmike


----------



## Padawan38

Thx for your answer.

How would you rank the below ones :

Intona
PS Audio LANRover
Icron USB extenders
Startech USB extenders


----------



## rb2013

r11bordo said:


> Thanks. For iPower, we haven't obtained the same results.
> For your Audiophilleo, I saw your ranking and I understand it only if you have tested the Audiophilleo without modul battery because without battery, the Audiophilleo interface is not very good. Do you own the battery modul ?


 
 That is a good point I did not have the battery supply.  I understand the AP2 is much better with this - but as opposed to power directly from a PC USB or a switching power supply - any USB DDC would benefit from the cleaner battery power.


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> Thx for your answer.
> 
> How would you rank the below ones :
> 
> ...


 

 The ICRON and Startech are similar - have not heard or heard from anyone with the LANRover.
  
 Here is a nice write-up on the LANRover by Darko
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/07/all-terrain-usb-audio-with-the-ps-audio-lanrover/


----------



## DObleX

Quote:


padawan38 said:


> is it this item ?
> https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY


 


rb2013 said:


> That's the exact model I have - bought from Amazon.  I would consider selling it at a good price - as I'm moving to Ethernet only computer audio.
> 
> PM me if interested.  I have the original box, packing materials and cables.  I have a few nice CAT6 cables I can include.


 
 There are 4 version of this unit on Amazon. Can buy any of them, or Gigabit version only needed?


----------



## rb2013

doblex said:


> Quote:
> There are 4 version of this unit on Amazon. Can buy any of them, or Gigabit version only needed?


 

 It has to be the GB LAN version that does iso audio.
  
 Noticing on the $599 PS Audio verison only one USB output.
  
 I have had good success with the Startech that has four USB outputs - using one or two Jitterbugs in the empty USB ports.  The JB's add a touch of warmth and richness to the tone.
  

 PS Audio version
  


 Startech Version


----------



## FredA

r11bordo said:


> A good way to have a clean power on these little boxes is the Ifi iPower. I tried one on my Squeezebox Touch and on a W4S Recovery, the result is very improved regarding à Teradak PSU.
> So, I'm hesitating between Singxer F-1 and Dxio Pro3z in replacement of my Audiophilleo but are we sure these 2 USB interfaces doing their job better than an Audiophilleo (I own this interface with the battery modulation and this interface must be considered only with this option)?
> For information, my source is composed with iPower->Touch->Curious Cable USB->W4S Recovery->Audiophilleo 2 with Battery modul.
> Thx




I owned the the Audiophileo with pure power 4 years ago. The f-1, with proper supply, is much better. The Breeze as well. I have not tried the Audiophileo with any usb reclocking device however. I went from audiophileo to internal usb32 (master-7) to di2014 to breeze to breeze modded with crysteks to f-1. And the f-1 is the best of them all. Better still using i2s if your dac allows it and you have some diy skills. Then i consider it very very close to reaching the quality limit that the rest of my gears dictates.

The Pro3z could beat the f-1, I don't know, have not tried it.


----------



## kazsud

Anyone think the Su-1 would benefit with a better external lps?


----------



## r11bordo

Hello,
Did anybody test the singxer F-1 with a Squeezebox Touch ? I'm not sure the xmos will easely recognized by the SBT...


----------



## eschell27

Would it be safe to assume that using a Regen fed by a decent LPS to an F-1 could come close to the sound quality of the SU-1? Not so sure i'll go that route over the SU-1 to save $$ but would consider it. Already have a regen, have the opportunity to get a decent r-core LPS second hand decently cheap then the cost of an F-1 with case would save me roughly $130 over getting an SU-1. Also, has anyone fed the SU-1 with a regen with LPS and regen without an LPS?


----------



## panhead

r11bordo said:


> A good way to have a clean power on these little boxes is the Ifi iPower. I tried one on my Squeezebox Touch and on a W4S Recovery, the result is very improved regarding à Teradak PSU.
> So, I'm hesitating between Singxer F-1 and Dxio Pro3z in replacement of my Audiophilleo but are we sure these 2 USB interfaces doing their job better than an Audiophilleo (I own this interface with the battery modulation and this interface must be considered only with this option)?
> For information, my source is composed with iPower->Touch->Curious Cable USB->W4S Recovery->Audiophilleo 2 with Battery modul.
> Thx


 
 f1 is WAY better.  Also owned Audiophilleo and pure power long ago.


----------



## roman410

drkingweeb said:


> hello,
> just got an f-1 xmos, trying to set it up to listen to Spotify,no sound from dac my set up is : pc>supra usb cable> w4s recovery (amb labs 9v ps}> short connector>f-1> w4s dac2dsdse> ncore amps. no sound with Spotify, sound with JRMC 21. suggestions?
> will the f-1 work with aq SBT?
> thanks,
> drmike


 
  


r11bordo said:


> Hello,
> Did anybody test the singxer F-1 with a Squeezebox Touch ? I'm not sure the xmos will easely recognized by the SBT...


 
 Becose SBT work under Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel, any XMOS work with SBT without additional drivers installation. I used Gustard U12, DXIO Pro3a and Singxer F-1 with SBT without problem.


----------



## Moon Dragon

roman410 said:


> Becose SBT work under Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel, any XMOS work with SBT without additional drivers installation. I used Gustard U12, DXIO Pro3a and Singxer F-1 with SBT without problem.


 
 Which converter do you think is better: Singxer F-1 or DXIO Pro3a ?


----------



## r11bordo

roman410 said:


> Becose SBT work under Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel, any XMOS work with SBT without additional drivers installation. I used Gustard U12, DXIO Pro3a and Singxer F-1 with SBT without problem.



Thanks. And what is the interface is better for you between the Dxio and the F-1?


----------



## Padawan38

rb2013 said:


> The ICRON and Startech are similar - have not heard or heard from anyone with the LANRover.
> 
> Here is a nice write-up on the LANRover by Darko
> http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/07/all-terrain-usb-audio-with-the-ps-audio-lanrover/


 

 Thx for answer.
  
 About the Startech, you targeted the 4 usb GB one and you say " ... GB LAN compatible and does iso audio devices".
  
 I don't understand clearly the point can you please detail what miss the other options to match with our purpose ? 
 The others are high speed (480Mb/s) guess it's sufficient ? ... what is the benefit of GB ? ...as well what is "iso audio" ?
  
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HFGQESY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=
  
 What about the Intona ?


----------



## rb2013

eschell27 said:


> Would it be safe to assume that using a Regen fed by a decent LPS to an F-1 could come close to the sound quality of the SU-1? Not so sure i'll go that route over the SU-1 to save $$ but would consider it. Already have a regen, have the opportunity to get a decent r-core LPS second hand decently cheap then the cost of an F-1 with case would save me roughly $130 over getting an SU-1. Also, has anyone fed the SU-1 with a regen with LPS and regen without an LPS?


 

 I tried both the Regen and the W4S Recovery - I preferred the Recovery.  It reclocks (as does the Regen) with better clocks - Cyrstek CCHD.  They are close in price and the Recovery has an ext DC power port as well.
  
 But I like the Regen too - so if that's what you have it is a good way to go.
  
 The power supply on SU-1 looks reasonable - maybe not to the quality of the dual stage regulated Breeze.  Anybody have a photo close-up of the regulators they use?  They are attached o the vertical heat sinks.
  
 SU-1 Power Supply

  
  
 Breeze Audio DU-U8:

  
  
 One advantage to the F-1 is the ability to easily and quickly (without mods) upgrade power supplies in the future to some of the totl LPS's - like the Paul Hynes
 http://paulhynesaudio.com


----------



## rb2013

kazsud said:


> Anyone think the Su-1 would benefit with a better external lps?


 

 Most likely yes - but that would require modding.  For the F-1 power supply changes are just plug and play.


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> Thx for answer.
> 
> About the Startech, you targeted the 4 usb GB one and you say " ... GB LAN compatible and does iso audio devices".
> 
> ...


 

 Well ICRON who OEMs the Startech unit - makes/made many versions of this unit - most with differing chipsets.  The totl unit used the SPARTAN 6 and are compatible with GB LANs.  But ICRON makes/made two version of their GB LAN compatible versions one that was more powerful then the other - the totl was compatible with iso audio.
  
 This is the unit that I have and had such great sound quality results with.  If you go back many months ago on this thread you will see, how we tried to figure out who made the upcoming PS Audio LANRover  and which model.  It is a bit confusing.  I happened to luck out and get the right one Startech on Amazon.  Later it became clear there were these other versions.  The reported SQ improvements with the others where not as good.
  
 I also tried this Startech unit:
 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T9RTT2U/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  
 It wasn't good at all.  I had trouble getting 192k to play without glitches.
  
 Many folks have had a good experience with the Intona - but with some compatibility issues.  The Intona uses inexpensive CMEMS clocks to do the reclocking.  This was do to it original industrial design and the need to operate in +2G lateral acceleration envirnoments.  The Intona and the ICRON/Startech/PS Audio devices work on entirely different methods to provide galvanic isolation.
  
 Here are the board photos of the totl Startech:

  

  
  
 JCAT just released their USB isolator  - have not heard any comments about it:  It does use the Intona chipset and is around $400.
 http://jplay.eu/jcat/


----------



## drkingweeb

what would be the chain of components if using a squeezebox with an f-1.
 thanks,
 drmike


----------



## Duy Le

rb2013 said:


> The power supply on SU-1 looks reasonable - maybe not to the quality of the dual stage regulated Breeze.  Anybody have a photo close-up of the regulators they use?  They are attached o the vertical heat sinks.


 
 FYI


----------



## rb2013

duy le said:


> FYI


 

 I have that low res picture off the internet as well, I posted one above.  It does no good in determining the LDO used.  Need a close up high res of the chip on the PS heatsink.


----------



## Albrecht

> what would be the chain of components if using a squeezebox with an f-1.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Not too sure what benefits that you'd achieve by using the USB output of the Squeezebox Touch compared to just a really great digital SPDIF, coax, cable.
  
 However, - you need a short USB cable into the F-1 and then an RCA type SPDIF, coax, cable to your DAC.
  
 I've tested this both with the F-1 and the HiFace2 going into my DAC.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## r11bordo

I saw the Mutec MC-3+ USB may be used as an interface USB - Spdif. So, choice becomes difficult regarding the very good feedback about F-1 and Dxio. The Mutec is more expensive, it gives more functions but in terms of performance and musicality, how is located the Mutec regarding both others interfaces?
Thanks


----------



## drkingweeb

Why would spotify not work when the f-1 is used? Pc>recovery>f-1>dac, it worked befre f-1 was inserted into this setup?
Thanks,
drmike


----------



## evillamer

rb2013,
  
 How about trying out this newly released word clock with the mutec? 
  
 https://blacklionaudio.com/product/micro-clock-mkiii-xb/
  
 It claims to have industry lowest jitter of just 0.6picosecond RMS.
  
 the previous version got much praises from this reviewer:
 http://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/109/micro-clock-mkiii/


----------



## rb2013

r11bordo said:


> I saw the Mutec MC-3+ USB may be used as an interface USB - Spdif. So, choice becomes difficult regarding the very good feedback about F-1 and Dxio. The Mutec is more expensive, it gives more functions but in terms of performance and musicality, how is located the Mutec regarding both others interfaces?
> Thanks


 

 I have a Mutec MC-3+ USB and use it as a SPDIF reclocker on my AOIP REDNET
  
 See my ranking I posted a while ago.  Compared to a stock F-1 it is better, but an F-1 with a great power supply and data chain - not so much.
  
 Note the Mutec has a SMPS.


----------



## rb2013

evillamer said:


> rb2013,
> 
> How about trying out this newly released word clock with the mutec?
> 
> ...


 

 Well I doubt much better then a OXCO Antelope.  I would look to clock the Mutec off an Atomic clock as it accepts a 10Mhz input.
  
 Here's one recently mentioned on the AOIP thread
 http://www.jackson-labs.com/index.php/products/fury


----------



## roman410

moon dragon said:


> Which converter do you think is better: Singxer F-1 or DXIO Pro3a ?


 
  


r11bordo said:


> Thanks. And what is the interface is better for you between the Dxio and the F-1?


 
  


drkingweeb said:


> what would be the chain of components if using a squeezebox with an f-1.
> thanks,
> drmike


 
 Hi, using alone with SBT any of this two DDC, sounds good. DIXIO Pro3a was more analog souding, with deeper soundstage and overal more natural sound. Singxer F-1, was more detailed and transparent. I will can live with any of this two, it is just by preferences.
      Unfortunately chaining dixio with Intona, Regen do not improved sound, with F-1 I get best sound from my SBT. If you have any of USB gizmos ready on hand or you planning get one on the future I will recommend Singxer-F1 with SBT.
 Note: DIXIO Pro 3a it is oldest DIYINHK model with oldest XMOS chip not any more for sale. It is replaced with newest DIXIO Pro3z with latest XMOS XU 216 chip, which a do not owned and cant not comment.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> ....    Note the Mutec has a SMPS.


 
  
 Hi !
  
 Replacing its stock psu seems very doable. It should not be a show-stopper ...
  

  

  
 i am more *concerned about the circuits pcb design and construction *
 the SU1 looks very different from the F1 ... which the better design ?
  
 Then I could always use any high quality external psu with a simple mod (i.e. adding a DC socket on the back panel)
 Like the Audiobyte Hydra Z  
  

  
  
  
 Regards,  gino


----------



## dogears

Looks like the Singxer F-1 is the best value for money? I'm still reading randomly on all 218 pages and counting.
 I almost went for the Yellowtec PUC2.


----------



## bButcher

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Anybody have a photo close-up of the regulators they use?  They are attached o the vertical heat sinks.


 
 LM2940, check post #3155
  
 Output noise 150uVrms


----------



## r11bordo

It is 150 noisier than a psu ifi iPower given for 1uV...


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !
> 
> Replacing its stock psu seems very doable. It should not be a show-stopper ...
> 
> ...


 

 Yes I posted those photos a long time ago - on folks who replaced the SMPS on their Mutec with LPS.
  
 The SU-1 is NOT a very different design then the F-1.  Similar components on a larger board to accommodate the additional output sockets and the inclusion of a power supply board.


----------



## rb2013

dogears said:


> Looks like the Singxer F-1 is the best value for money? I'm still reading randomly on all 218 pages and counting.
> I almost went for the Yellowtec PUC2.


 

 I agree - with a small investment in a split USB cable - running the power leg into a TeraDak X1/X2 - killer good package, for very low cost.


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> LM2940, check post #3155
> 
> Output noise 150uVrms


 
 Thanks!
  


r11bordo said:


> It is 150 noisier than a psu ifi iPower given for 1uV...


 
 Yes it is.  I power my F-1 with a TeraDak LPS WITH a iFi DC iPurifier.  So linear power with <1uv  noise.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Yes I posted those photos a long time ago - on folks who replaced the SMPS on their Mutec with LPS.
> The SU-1 is NOT a very different design then the F-1.   Similar components on a larger board to accommodate the additional output sockets and the inclusion of a power supply board.


 
  
 Hi !  sorry I did not see that. 
 Thanks a lot for the valuable information. 
 Regards,   gino


----------



## riffer

r11bordo said:


> Hello,
> 
> Did anybody test the singxer F-1 with a Squeezebox Touch ? I'm not sure the xmos will easely recognized by the SBT...



 


Touch with EDO mod works fine straight into the Gustard U12, if that is any help. I am not sure if the power scheme is the same with the F-1, but you will have problems with anything that severs the +5V line.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


>


 
 No worries
  
 Cheers


----------



## slex

Jcat USB isolator from intona built for audio. Any comments?


----------



## rw35

I bet Jcat bought the OEM board from Intona and fitted it into a metal box, there is no mention of any modifications?
  
 I lined my Intona internally with EMI copper tape.


----------



## slex

http://asoyaji.blogspot.de/2016/08/usb-isolator.html

This is only review so far. Need to be translated.


----------



## rb2013

slex said:


> http://asoyaji.blogspot.de/2016/08/usb-isolator.html
> 
> This is only review so far. Need to be translated.


 

 Thanks


----------



## slex

rb2013 said:


> Thanks




My pleasure, hope you can spot the difference nakedly. Through my old eyes it looks the same. But the black casing is soooo much better then the plastic itona. It also complement the black casing F1 from singxer that should arrive soon.


----------



## rb2013

slex said:


> My pleasure, hope you can spot the difference nakedly. Through my old eyes it looks the same. But the black casing is soooo much better then the plastic itona. It also complement the black casing F1 from singxer that should arrive soon.


 

 Yes it is.  I much prefer the GB LAN USB extender solution.  Perfect compatibility, better clocking, better power supply options, true galvanic isolation, and the ability to transmit USB through GB LAN switches and Wifi.
  
 Of all the USB gadgets I have tried - without a doubt had greatest SQ improvement.


----------



## drkingweeb

is there some kind of cable to plug onto the f-1 pins to output i2s. I have a w4s dac2 dsdse,it takes i2s via hdmi .
 thanks,
 drmike


----------



## slex

rb2013 said:


> Yes it is.  I much prefer the GB LAN USB extender solution.  Perfect compatibility, better clocking, better power supply options, true galvanic isolation, and the ability to transmit USB through GB LAN switches and Wifi.
> 
> Of all the USB gadgets I have tried - without a doubt had greatest SQ improvement.




Perhaps it is. End to end true galvanic isolation solution.

I wonder if putting a jcat isolator at source's end and upcoming ifi s/pdif ipurifier( on booking list now) at dac's end will improve SQ. In between them are F1 and Ifi iUSB3 nano. Im itching for this configuration.


----------



## Moon Dragon

I want to buy F-1 and now trying to understand how to arrange power supply.
 For example: Can I take powerbank and use this cable for a clean power?
  
 Or I use a separate 5V power supply, how it must be connected to the F-1?
  
 Do I need to use USB isolator?  If so, what should I choose? not very expensive...
  
 I need help in this issue


----------



## rb2013

slex said:


> Perhaps it is. End to end true galvanic isolation solution.
> 
> I wonder if putting a jcat isolator at source's end and upcoming ifi s/pdif ipurifier( on booking list now) at dac's end will improve SQ. In between them are F1 and Ifi iUSB3 nano. Im itching for this configuration.


 

 Well that would be interesting.  Really two separate questions.  One is the USB isolation, the other SPDIF reclocking.
  
 I had good success with the W4S Remedy reclocker (which uses the excellent low phase noise Crystek CCHD clock) after the F-1.  Now the Mutec MC-3+ USB made a bigger difference then the Remedy - and improved the SQ on both DACs.
  
 But only on one of my DAC's the other made no difference.  So as far as the SPDIF reclockers are concerned - much depends on the reclocker of course - but also on the DAC SPDIF receiver chip.
  
 I wonder what clock iFi is using - same for the JCAT


----------



## rb2013

moon dragon said:


> I want to buy F-1 and now trying to understand how to arrange power supply.
> For example: Can I take powerbank and use this cable for a clean power?
> 
> Or I use a separate 5V power supply, how it must be connected to the F-1?
> ...


 

 Yes that would work.  You could also use a split USB cable - a better solution as the power and data leads are separate the whole run of cable - this elminiates EMI interference between the sensitive data connection and the electro-mag field from the power leg.
  
 Forza Audio makes a good one the Twin Copper Split - I really like the LH Labs 2G better.  I have both.
  
 Another path would be the use of a USB reclocker like the W4S Recovery or Regen.  They have external port ports.  Lastly, the Schiit Wyrd is another good option.
  
 For High Speed USB galvanic isolation - there are no cheap solutions.


----------



## Maxx134

roman410 said:


> ...
> 
> Note: DIXIO Pro 3a it is oldest DIYINHK model with oldest XMOS chip not any more for sale. It is replaced with newest DIXIO Pro3z with latest XMOS XU 216 chip, which a do not owned and cant not comment.



Anyone have any info or comments on this?
Not out yet?
I am happy with the F-1 being fed with a Regen in front, which is in turn using an ipower supply. .


----------



## roman410

moon dragon said:


> I want to buy F-1 and now trying to understand how to arrange power supply.
> 
> For example: Can I take powerbank and use this cable for a clean power?
> 
> ...




Yes, you can use 5v battery power bank or linear power supply to feed clean power to F-1, just you need use splitted usb wire. Data leg you connect to your music source, second power leg to battery or lps. I have good experience with LH labs ligt speed 2g splitted usb wire.
 If you need usb isolator it is depending from quality your music source. From my experience my SBT benefit chaining with Intona and even more together with Regen. On the other side aditing Intona with my microRendu do not have any effect.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....  Now be very careful as it's one model of the many the Icron/Startech USB extenders that provide the SQ boost that I and many others have heard - the one that is GB LAN compatible and *does iso audio devices.*
> Like this one from Startech:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HFGQESY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=
> ...


 
  
 Hi !  
 I have two questions
 1)   what means "does iso audio devices" ?
 2)   have you any experience/info on the Startech extender part number USB2002EXT2  ?  forgetting the lan compatibility i wonder if this cheaper model can provide any kind of improvement compared to a direct usb cable connection.
  
https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/USB-2/USB-Extenders/2-Port-USB-2-Extender-over-Cat5-or-Cat6-Up-to-330-ft-100m~USB2002EXT2
  
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## Albrecht

> I much prefer the GB LAN USB extender solution


 
  
 Thanks for sticking with this thread RB. I know that you've moved on to a better solution with the Rednet/Dante. I've also been reading on the PSAudio Forum about the LanRover reports. Most people seem to really like the improvement, once they get them working. Far more people are having connectivity issues than I expected. Many, (it seems), are using MACs. I wonder, (and wouldn't be surprised), if Apple's USB bus is just crappier in general.
 No one seems to be clarifying if they're using the LanRovers on the audio rack together. As I said before, - NOT hooking these things into your LAN, and pulling the computer off the rack & to another location in the house, - seems to defeat much of the purpose of these devices.
 Although it's good speculation to assume that Icron is building these for PSAudio, - I am most curious to know if these are indeed the isochronous ones, or just the plain GE, gigabit LAN ones...
  
 I wish that someone would compare the isochronous Gigabit LAN branded Icrons, with the LanRover. But that would be a pretty huge outlay of cash to experiment with.
  
 Thanks again for all of your great work!!


----------



## Albrecht

> the one that is GB LAN compatible and *does iso audio devices.*


 
  
 Hi,
 It means it uses isochronous chip, - it is either similar or the same as the chip that Chord uses in their USB receivers in their DACs.
  
 "The QuteHD is an all-digital design and allows operation from a single SPDIF connection from 32 kHz to 384 kHz. Due to unique features in the design, reliable operation with 192 kHz from Toslink optical is possible. This allows better sound quality, as the benefits of optical (lower RF noisegiving lower noise-floor modulation and hence smoother sound) is obtained, without the detriments of poor jitter and errors from optical. Isochronous USB and Digital PLLIsochronous USB operation eliminates jitter from the transmitting computer, asio-timing is controlled by the QuteHD. With SPDIF sources, the effect of incoming jitter is virtually eliminated by use of a unique Digital PLL. This has a very long time constant of 1.5 seconds, so the incoming jitter is effectively removed. The benefit of this is no measured degradation with huge incoming jitter levels and a smoother, warmer, more natural sound quality. "
  
 With respect, you have asked this question several times, and the answer has not, nor will not, change. These are not audio devices, they are distributive networking devices designed to extend USB peripherals like mice, keyboards, hard drives, etc from room to room. There are many models, because each model has its own unique & specific purpose. If you want to extend your mouse into two rooms that are right up against each other, you're not going to want to use the super expensive gigabit LAN model. Mice don't have the same bandwidth & signal type as hi-rez video. The models down the chain are not only incompatible with converting USB to TCP/IP & back, - they're not even capable of adequately isolating the USB signal.
  
 Rob has tried these "down-the-chain" models, (and reported it in an earlier post). Models down in the chain do not work, they don't have the bandwidth to adequately maintain the USB audio spec.
  
 Maybe there's one of the 12 or so of these that MIGHT allow you to run 16/44 with no cracks, or dropouts, - that you can possibly use on the audio rack with your computer. But it will still cost $300 or so, and will likely sound worse than an Intona or a Regen.
  
 The goal isn't only to improve USB, it's to get the noisy computer away from the rest of the audio system. From what I can tell, no one here believes that they can find an Intona level device that's an USB extender that works as well for less than the Intona. We've given up. We either get something close to an Intona, keeping the computer on the rack: or get something better that does both.  The choice is to either buy the Intona, or get something much better that also gets the noisy computer into another room.
  
 I apologize if I was impolite here...


----------



## intrepidcase

You guys have an impressive amount of knowledge with testing various gear to deal with USB connectivity. I have a mac mini playing into a Hegel H80, similar to Caper's setup, and have been looking to get rid of the digital glare that pervades my music. After some hasty reading, I bought a Gustard U-12 to replace my HiFace2 which really helped. Of course, after reading further I realized that I could better and now I think I am going to go with an Intona and F-1. My only concern is the usb power flow through the two devices - but I am thinking that I can always get a TeraDak X1/X2 LPS with split USB cable to feed the Intona power. Looks like I can get both the F-1 and Intona from the same US based distributor kitsune that was mentioned earlier - https://kitsunehifi.com/product/intona-usb/. And it comes in black. They also have the new jcat isolator but as per above looks to be just a metal box for almost $100 more so it doesn't seem worth it? Anyone know of a good source for the TeraDak other than fleabay?


----------



## dogears

Any one here who has tried the iFi micro iDSD (mainly as bridge)? That's my other option (before). TIA


----------



## rb2013

dogears said:


> Any one here who has tried the iFi micro iDSD (mainly as bridge)? That's my other option (before). TIA


 

 Yes - actually the iFi iDSD2.  Not good as a DDC.


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> Anyone have any info or comments on this?
> Not out yet?
> I am happy with the F-1 being fed with a Regen in front, which is in turn using an ipower supply. .


 

 Some have compared the new Pro3z with the F-1 and preferred the F-1.  The XU216 may provide little advantages, esp at SR's below 384k.
  
 The big leap was going from the XMOS 500MIPs U-8 to the 1000MIPs XU208


----------



## dogears

I didn't know they already have a iDSD2  Thanks for the reply


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !
> I have two questions
> 1)   what means "does iso audio devices" ?
> 2)   have you any experience/info on the Startech extender part number USB2002EXT2  ?  forgetting the lan compatibility i wonder if this cheaper model can provide any kind of improvement compared to a direct usb cable connection.
> ...


 
 The ability to realtime stream isochronus devices means this is a more sophisticated and powerful chip being used.  This is the one that yields the best SQ for USB (although USB 2.0 is Asyn).  It's a way to identify the proper device from a confusing array of USB extenders.  It must have tow features: 1st it has to be GB LAN compatible, 2nd Iso audio and other device compatible.  If it does not have these capabilities - it may not work well at high res audio SR's.  But not due to the iso capability - just do to the throughput capability this requires.
  
 I hope this clears up some confusion.
  


albrecht said:


> Thanks for sticking with this thread RB. I know that you've moved on to a better solution with the Rednet/Dante. I've also been reading on the PSAudio Forum about the LanRover reports. Most people seem to really like the improvement, once they get them working. Far more people are having connectivity issues than I expected. Many, (it seems), are using MACs. I wonder, (and wouldn't be surprised), if Apple's USB bus is just crappier in general.
> No one seems to be clarifying if they're using the LanRovers on the audio rack together. As I said before, - NOT hooking these things into your LAN, and pulling the computer off the rack & to another location in the house, - seems to defeat much of the purpose of these devices.
> Although it's good speculation to assume that Icron is building these for PSAudio, - I am most curious to know if these are indeed the isochronous ones, or just the plain GE, gigabit LAN ones...
> 
> ...


 
 Hey thanks!
  
 Well you I have been on the fence about replacing my uber USB chain with the Startech in my office system with AOIP.  It is just so good.  I sometimes think it does connect better on an emotional level.  So have not listed my Startech for sale.  Note the quality of the CAT6 cable does matter in this chain.
  
 I think unless you have a very highly resolving system the REDNET AOIP may not gain you much. 
  
 I would love to see a board photo of the LANRover to confirm which chipset they are using.


----------



## rb2013

dogears said:


> I didn't know they already have a iDSD2  Thanks for the reply


 

 Sorry I had a iDAC2.  It ranked near the bottom of my DDC pile.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *Albrecht* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Hi,
> It means it uses isochronous chip, - it is either similar or the same as the chip that Chord uses in their USB receivers in their DACs.
> ...


 
  
  
 Hi !  thanks a lot indeed for the very valuable advice
 I have opened them and for sure the chips are not like the one of the mentioned unit.
 As you mention the Intona I guess that galvanic isolation is a primary goal. 
*Is there a way to check if the model I have provides galvanic isolation or not ?  I mean an easy test that I can carry out ?*
 Or is it possible to determine this looking at the pcb circuits ?
 I am not at all on high rez, max 16/48 here.  
 For now I have no dropouts with this resolution and sampling rate. 
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> The ability to realtime stream isochronus devices means this is a more sophisticated and powerful chip being used.
> This is the one that yields the best SQ for USB (although USB 2.0 is Asyn).  It's a way to identify the proper device from a confusing array of USB extenders.
> It must have tow features:
> 1st it has to be GB LAN compatible,
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very kind and helpful advice.
 I have no interest in high rez audio.  *My needs stop at 16/48.*
 I have opened them and the chips are much smaller than the one you post.  Clearly is a much lesser quality product. 
 But reading praises of the Intona 
  
*I would like to understand if, high rez aside, these units I have do provide galvanic isolation.   *
*Is there a simple test to carry out to check this ?   *
  
 If I can get galvanic isolation I am more than satisfied.
 I played some low rez files without any drop-outs.
 Thanks a lot again,   gino


----------



## r11bordo

rb2013 said:


> Some have compared the new Pro3z with the F-1 and preferred the F-1.  The XU216 may provide little advantages, esp at SR's below 384k.
> 
> The big leap was going from the XMOS 500MIPs U-8 to the 1000MIPs XU208



Where have you seen feedback about pro3z? If you have few links, I get its.


----------



## Moon Dragon

Many thanks to rb2013 and roman410 for such a detailed answer to my question. Now I understend how to make a power supply for F1


----------



## taz23

rb2013 said:


> Some have compared the new Pro3z with the F-1 and preferred the F-1.  The XU216 may provide little advantages, esp at SR's below 384k.
> 
> The big leap was going from the XMOS 500MIPs U-8 to the 1000MIPs XU208




I do not have the F-1 but just received the Pro3z. I have only been listening to it for an hour, and I like the optical out to my Geek Pulse XFi. The coaxial seemed bright to me. Now I understand the term "the speaker just disappeared". By the way, I am using the Pro3z after an Intona.

I purchased the unit after seeing a quick comment that the user preferred Pro3z over the F-1. While waiting for the unit, a few comments came up that they prefer F-1. So it seems like it is a mixed bag of comments. Perhaps both are good, and it is a matter of preference and synergy.

Happy listening.


----------



## Maxx134

taz23 said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Some have compared the new Pro3z with the F-1 and preferred the F-1.  The XU216 may provide little advantages, esp at SR's below 384k.
> ...




Thank you both for response.
I also tried a jitterbug in my chain right after the laptop, 
but no improvement so I took put.
I believe the it is theasy synergy like you say. ..
Since I have a new thin small laptop,
I am guessing that is the reason.

but I have notice a nice improvement with swapping out old Regen power supply with the smaller iPower . 

more clean background, and dynamics. 


Basically the F-1 made my yggy more spacious and real.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the very kind and helpful advice.
> I have no interest in high rez audio.  *My needs stop at 16/48.*
> I have opened them and the chips are much smaller than the one you post.  Clearly is a much lesser quality product.
> But reading praises of the Intona
> ...


 
 Yes - with a multi meter test the USB power pins from each side for continuity
  


r11bordo said:


> Where have you seen feedback about pro3z? If you have few links, I get its.


 
 Some one posted here a few pages back.
  


moon dragon said:


> Many thanks to rb2013 and roman410 for such a detailed answer to my question. Now I understend how to make a power supply for F1


 
 Cheers!




  


taz23 said:


> I do not have the F-1 but just received the Pro3z. I have only been listening to it for an hour, and I like the optical out to my Geek Pulse XFi. The coaxial seemed bright to me. Now I understand the term "the speaker just disappeared". By the way, I am using the Pro3z after an Intona.
> 
> I purchased the unit after seeing a quick comment that the user preferred Pro3z over the F-1. While waiting for the unit, a few comments came up that they prefer F-1. So it seems like it is a mixed bag of comments. Perhaps both are good, and it is a matter of preference and synergy.
> 
> Happy listening.


 
 I'd love to see a board photo of the Pro3z.  Would be interested to see the power isolation scheme they use.
  
 DIYinHK usually post board photos - but have not on the Pro3z.
  
 Here is the Pro3a (which I had two of) - you see the std Murata transformer for isolation.

  
  
 From their description looks to be the same for the Pro3z just using the XU216


> Ultra low phase noise NDK NZ2520SD oscillator, thin film resistor and Murata isolated transformer (Be care the very common China made Pulse transformer in many 192khz SPDIF equipment is only capable of maximum 7Mbps(i.e. 96khz) according to the official datasheet.) Components are sourced from NDK and digikey directly (guarantee no fake product from China)


 
  
 Yes of course YMMV


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> Thank you both for response.
> I also tried a jitterbug in my chain right after the laptop,
> but no improvement so I took put.
> I believe the it is theasy synergy like you say. ..
> ...


 

 Nice feedback - thanks!


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> ginetto61 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi !
> ...




I see a lot of progression was made with these setups.
wow


----------



## kazsud

taz23 said:


> I do not have the F-1 but just received the Pro3z. I have only been listening to it for an hour, and I like the optical out to my Geek Pulse XFi. The coaxial seemed bright to me. Now I understand the term "the speaker just disappeared". By the way, I am using the Pro3z after an Intona.
> 
> I purchased the unit after seeing a quick comment that the user preferred Pro3z over the F-1. While waiting for the unit, a few comments came up that they prefer F-1. So it seems like it is a mixed bag of comments. Perhaps both are good, and it is a matter of preference and synergy.
> 
> Happy listening.


 
  
 I would burn in coax when you aren't listening. And give it another try.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Yes - *with a multi meter test the USB power pins from each side for continuity*
> Some one posted here a few pages back.
> Cheers!


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot again.  I will do it immediately.
 They are really nice objects these converters
 Kind regards, gino


----------



## slex

Cheapest full speed usb isolation i encounter with external power.

Olimex USB iso- google it


----------



## Albrecht

Hi,
  
 The USB extenders that you linked to have lower bandwidth and may or may not provide an adequate level of isolation.
  
 I would think that SQ would be the biggest concern.
  
 But the device that you linked to is $430. I would return it if you can.
  
 The isochronous/gigabit LAN extender from ICRON is only $30 more at $457, - that'll give you better SQ than the Intona,  (although some people may dispute this, and have experienced no improvement over the Intona). And it also will provide better isolation than the Intona; cause it's converting USB to TCP.
  
 AND  allow you in the future, (if you want to), - plug into your network, and remove your computer from the audio room.
  
 If you don't want the SQ, aren't concerned about plugging into your LAN, and only want Isolation, - my recommendation would be to just buy the Intona, and save at least a $100.
  
 (This is just me, but when one is talking about flexibility and possible future features: I will ALWAYS spend $30 more on a $400-$500 total cost product).
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Cornan

The best and cheapest galvantic USB isolation is unshielded wires without 5v power and ground wires on a distance (>4 times the diameter of the wire) from the data wires. No external devices (which require power). Sounds best IMO but need a DAC that does'nt require USB power.

Ethernet is another ball game. I do get that Ethernet (Cat 5 or 6) is galvantic isolated and see the advantages..but if you got the chance to try a cat8 (Supra for ex.) which is not galvantic isolated you might change your mind. At least I did!  There is more to it than galvantic Isolation IMO.


----------



## ginetto61

albrecht said:


> Hi,
> The USB extenders that you linked to have* lower bandwidth*


 
  
 Hi !  i guess you are referring to me. Thanks a lot for the very helpful advice. 
 I stream only 16/48 files at max.   Still i have noticed that the better the system the better also files low rez.  
 So there is a reason to upgrade even if one listens only cds. 
  


> and may or may *not provide an adequate level of isolation*.  I would think that SQ would be the biggest concern.


 
 I have to try with the tester.  This is important actually. 
 I did not see any transformer inside.   I understand that for galvanic isolation transformers are required.
  

  


> But the device that you linked to is $430. I would return it if you can.


 
  
 I got a very good price.  Around 120 USD. Open box but like new.  No return allowed. 
  


> The isochronous/gigabit LAN extender from ICRON is only $30 more at $457, - that'll give you better SQ than the Intona,
> (although some people may dispute this, and have experienced no improvement over the Intona).
> And it also will provide better isolation than the Intona; cause it's converting USB to TCP.
> AND  allow you in the future, (if you want to), - plug into your network, and remove your computer from the audio room.
> ...


 
  
 I have just connected it to see if it works and it works.  I do not perceived any particular noise. No dropouts with cd files. 
 Previously i had a very cheap one but there were dropouts.
 However i will try some thd+noise measurements using a usb soundcard with and without (i.e. just a usb cable) to see if there is any change.
 The soundcard works with the 5VDC from the usb bus. 
 In the meantime i will look for the Intona.  
 Thanks again.  gino


----------



## Cornan

I know I am a bit OT here (and swim in deeper water).. but IMHO impedance match does'nt matter at all. Signal integrity is everything. The important thing is to get the signal as fast as possible from A to B..and not to limit the speed. Remember that to ensure true impedance match capasitive coupling is required (by shielding & dielectric materials)..and capasitive coupling is one of the worst enemies of good sound because it limits the speed.


----------



## TJHUB

I had an F-1 on loan for a few weeks. I liked it a lot, but I decided to go for the Pro3z as it had a case (at the time), and could be externally powered easier. In my setup, the Pro3z was better in many ways. By comparison, the F-1 sounded hifi. The F-1 wasn't as transparent, seemed to push both the treble and bass, and wasn't as defined. The Pro3z was an easy pick for me. I tried battery power and a modified TeraDak LPS on both. The LPS was the easy winner for both.

My DAC is an Eastern Electric DAC Plus without a tube and DEXA SE opamps. The Pro3z replaces the OEM M2Tech USB input, Paul Pang Red USB cable, Uptone Regen, and Paul Pang Regen link. I'm also using an Acoustic Zen Absolute 75 spdif cable. The overall sound quality improvement is really something special.


----------



## Maxx134

tjhub said:


> I had an F-1 on loan for a few weeks. I liked it a lot, but I decided to go for the Pro3z as it had a case (at the time), and could be externally powered easier. In my setup, the Pro3z was better in many ways. By comparison, the F-1 sounded hifi. The F-1 wasn't as transparent, seemed to push both the treble and bass, and wasn't as defined. The Pro3z was an easy pick for me. I tried battery power and a modified TeraDak LPS on both. The LPS was the easy winner for both.
> 
> My DAC is an Eastern Electric DAC Plus without a tube and DEXA SE opamps. The Pro3z replaces the OEM M2Tech USB input, Paul Pang Red USB cable, Uptone Regen, and Paul Pang Regen link. I'm also using an Acoustic Zen Absolute 75 spdif cable. The overall sound quality improvement is really something special.



It would be very interesting to test this to see if (in my configuration) using this Pro3z with external power would negate the need for the extra "Regen" I am using.

I am guessing because every setup has so many variables,
that fine tunnig with these things are reason for slight differences..

Thanks for your observations.


----------



## dogears

cornan said:


> The best and cheapest galvantic USB isolation is unshielded wires without 5v power and ground wires on a distance (>4 times the diameter of the wire) from the data wires. No external devices (which require power). Sounds best IMO but need a DAC that does'nt require USB power.
> 
> Ethernet is another ball game. I do get that Ethernet (Cat 5 or 6) is galvantic isolated and see the advantages..but if you got the chance to try a cat8 (Supra for ex.) which is not galvantic isolated you might change your mind. At least I did!  There is more to it than galvantic Isolation IMO.




i can make this and try it with the musiland 02us


----------



## taz23

tjhub said:


> I had an F-1 on loan for a few weeks. I liked it a lot, but I decided to go for the Pro3z as it had a case (at the time), and could be externally powered easier. In my setup, the Pro3z was better in many ways. By comparison, the F-1 sounded hifi. The F-1 wasn't as transparent, seemed to push both the treble and bass, and wasn't as defined. The Pro3z was an easy pick for me. I tried battery power and a modified TeraDak LPS on both. The LPS was the easy winner for both.
> 
> My DAC is an Eastern Electric DAC Plus without a tube and DEXA SE opamps. The Pro3z replaces the OEM M2Tech USB input, Paul Pang Red USB cable, Uptone Regen, and Paul Pang Regen link. I'm also using an Acoustic Zen Absolute 75 spdif cable. The overall sound quality improvement is really something special.


 

 Hi TJHUB,
  
 What do you think of the Pro3z's optical versus coaxial outputs?  I prefer the optical at this early stage.
  
 I also like the fact that the Pro3z offers both optical and coaxial output, giving me more flexibility in connection options.
  
 Many thanks.


----------



## chauphuong

Su1 does grear things. Remove the "thickness" of sound created by noise from usb port. Now I have musicality and the non fatigue listening experience.


----------



## TJHUB

maxx134 said:


> It would be very interesting to test this to see if (in my configuration) using this Pro3z with external power would negate the need for the extra "Regen" I am using.
> 
> I am guessing because every setup has so many variables,
> that fine tunnig with these things are reason for slight differences..
> ...


 
  
 I'm a big fan of the Regen, but I preferred the sound of both the F-1 and the Pro3z without it.  I felt the sound was more natural and balanced without it, but I plan to try it again soon just to make sure I feel the same way after some weeks.
  
 I thought the F-1 being powered by the Regen while powered by my LPS would be great, but both the F-1 and Pro3z sounded better to me powered directly by the LPS and no Regen.  Maybe my short USB cable between the usb output card and these devices negates the benefits of the Regen?
  
  
  
  


taz23 said:


> Hi TJHUB,
> 
> What do you think of the Pro3z's optical versus coaxial outputs?  I prefer the optical at this early stage.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I haven't used optical cables for anything in years, so I don't have any here to try.  I loaned a really nice glass cable to a friend years ago, and never got it back.  As for tone, the Pro3z landed my setup right in a sweet spot, so I'm not looking for any further improvement to make me want to buy a nice optical cable. If I had one lying around, I'd certainly try it.


----------



## ccschua

for me the pro3Z on battery is on higher level, however I do notice battery runs out pretty fast. looks like it drains it fast.


----------



## taz23

ccschua said:


> for me the pro3Z on battery is on higher level, however I do notice battery runs out pretty fast. looks like it drains it fast.


 

 Hi ccschua,
  
 Do you mean that the Pro3z on battery is better than when it is powered by a LPS, or do you mean in comparison with being powered by the USB?
 Yes, the Pro3z runs pretty hot to the touch, regardless of whether powered by battery or USB.


----------



## taz23

tjhub said:


> I haven't used optical cables for anything in years, so I don't have any here to try.  I loaned a really nice glass cable to a friend years ago, and never got it back.  As for tone, the Pro3z landed my setup right in a sweet spot, so I'm not looking for any further improvement to make me want to buy a nice optical cable. If I had one lying around, I'd certainly try it.


 
  
 Yes, my coaxial cable and optical are pretty basic ones.  So I just ordered better ones (e.g., the glass optical cable from Lifatec).  Hopefully it will make things better...
 Then I can do a better comparison between the two outputs, and update here.


----------



## TJHUB

taz23 said:


> Hi ccschua,
> 
> Do you mean that the Pro3z on battery is better than when it is powered by a LPS, or do you mean in comparison with being powered by the USB?
> Yes, the Pro3z runs pretty hot to the touch, regardless of whether powered by battery or USB.


 
  
 My Pro3z is powered by an LPS set to 5.5v 24/7.  The external case temp on mine is 87 degrees; not even really warm to the touch.  Strange others run warmer?


----------



## Yviena

Hmm actually looking at the new ifi spdif purifier, and the theory behind the Genesis digital lense, it looks like jitter is completely eliminated excluding inherent jitter in the clock/pll used.

If this is true then a ddc won't probably be necessary anymore with the purifier also having galvanic isolation.

Correct me if im wrong.


----------



## taz23

tjhub said:


> My Pro3z is powered by an LPS set to 5.5v 24/7.  The external case temp on mine is 87 degrees; not even really warm to the touch.  Strange others run warmer?


 
  
 Ah, I forgot to mention that I live in Singapore (i.e., tropics).  The temperature tonight is 31 deg C (87 deg F).  So the temperature differential will matter, I suppose.
  
 I do not have a way to measure accurately, but I reckon it is about 50 deg C (somewhat similar to the temperature of a Chord Mojo when it is charging and playing at the same time in the tropics).
  
 (I also ordered a 5V Jay's Audio LPS, so I look forward to comparing the difference when on battery versus LPS.)


----------



## r11bordo

ccschua said:


> for me the pro3Z on battery is on higher level, however I do notice battery runs out pretty fast. looks like it drains it fast.



Try the Ifi iPower, it seems it is less noisy than a battery (they have implemented a feedback to cancel all noise at the output of the PSU).
I'm not sure yet but I think I will buy both interface F-1 and pro3z. And if I do it, I will buy a new iPower 5V for the pro3z. For the Mutec, it is quite a little expensive to play like this ...


----------



## Yviena

r11bordo said:


> Try the Ifi iPower, it seems it is less noisy than a battery (they have implemented a feedback to cancel all noise at the output of the PSU).
> I'm not sure yet but I think I will buy both interface F-1 and pro3z. And if I do it, I will buy a new iPower 5V for the pro3z. For the Mutec, it is quite a little expensive to play like this ...



Somewhere on the ipower forum threads ifi have actually said that the filtering on the ipower is both incoming and outgoing noise so it shouldn't put out mains noise either.


----------



## FredA

Here's a quick update on my i2s f-1.

As posted earlier, i just hooked up a very short rj45 to the f-1 board and got it out of the case directly i.e. without a socket. There is only about 3 inches of wire really.

At first i tought it sounded just about perfectly hooked to my Master-7. But something happened this weekend. Last bits of breaking-in of the schiit wyrd's regulator or of the hookup wire?

Whatever happened, it now sounds so good that i can't stopped listening to music. So refined and detailed, so smooth and dynamic at the same time. The balance is excellent, the bass is full. And the soundstage has more depth as well. I encourage all those of you who own an audio-gd product with rj45 i2s input to try that trick. It's so much more refined and neutral than the bnc input. Jitter is so low with the f-1 that there is no point reclocking so i turn the pll off. Next move: i will try the nos-7 modification. According to the latest reviewers, it's well worth the effort.


----------



## bButcher

freda said:


> ...  Next move: i will try the nos-7 modification. According to the latest reviewers, it's well worth the effort.


 
 A bit warning ahead, NOS-7 operate in async mode, so F-1's femto clock will be reclocked to its internal 98.304 MHhz TCXO which has not so good jitter performance, unless it is put into BYPASS mode --- this will put it back to sync mode.


----------



## FredA

bbutcher said:


> A bit warning ahead, NOS-7 operate in async mode, so F-1's femto clock will be reclocked to its internal 98.304 MHhz TCXO which has not so good jitter performance, unless it is put into BYPASS mode --- this will put it back to sync mode.




Ok. Thanks. But do one still gets the new nos algorithm then and associated sound improvment or does it mean a complete bypass of the dsp?


----------



## bButcher

Hi FredA,
  
 Complete bypass of dsp-1 except extracting data from I2S stream and redistribute to the 8 1704 chips. You can get a taste of it by remove BYPASS jumper in your Master 7.


----------



## FredA

bbutcher said:


> Hi FredA,
> 
> Complete bypass of dsp-1 except extracting data from I2S stream and redistribute to the 8 1704 chips. You can get a taste of it by remove BYPASS jumper in your Master 7.




Well i guess both dac (nos-7 and master-7) are pretty much the same with bypass. But still it's a good idea to try to upsample to 192khz in audirvana combined with the bypass. Might give a nice upgrade considering how accurate the i2s out sounds. 

But still, i will asked Kingwa about jitter rejection with the new clock. Because, it runs so fast and if i am not mistaken, jitter can be much lower than that of the oscillator in a fifo reclocker.


----------



## FredA

freda said:


> Well i guess both dac (nos-7 and master-7) are pretty much the same with bypass. But still it's a good idea to try to upsample to 192khz in audirvana combined with the bypass. Might give a nice upgrade considering how accurate the i2s out sounds.
> 
> But still, i will asked Kingwa about jitter rejection with the new clock. Because, it runs so fast and if i am not mistaken, jitter can be much lower than that of the oscillator in a fifo reclocker.




Well Kingwa just told me that the pll can be disabled with both nos modes and that jitter reduction is excellent anyway. So i will order a kit and clarify things for myself before i do the mods, or maybe i won't, depending, Most, if not all people who did the mod were very happy about it anyway.


----------



## bButcher

freda said:


> Well i guess both dac (nos-7 and master-7) are pretty much the same with bypass.


 
 Not quite, in M7 BYPASS can only support to 192k, in NOS7 it can handle up to 768k, so make oversampling on computer more realistic.
  
  


freda said:


> Well Kingwa just told me that the pll can be disabled with both nos modes and that jitter reduction is excellent anyway


 
 No matter PLL disabled or not, it still use its internal clock as base, please refer to "http://www.head-fi.org/t/806397/audio-gd-new-nos-7-2016-edition-impression-thread/120", and the DSP-1's pll jitter is max 200ps if remember it right.


----------



## slex

i wonder whether audiogd or gustard is coming out with thier DDC base on new xmos 208 or 216.


----------



## FredA

bbutcher said:


> Not quite, in M7 BYPASS can only support to 192k, in NOS7 it can handle up to 768k, so make oversampling on computer more realistic.
> 
> 
> No matter PLL disabled or not, it still use its internal clock as base, please refer to "http://www.head-fi.org/t/806397/audio-gd-new-nos-7-2016-edition-impression-thread/120", and the DSP-1's pll jitter is max 200ps if remember it right.




I think you are right, it seems it is always asynch, based on the dsp clock. Disabling the pll in the context of the nos-7 must have a different meaning. I will read the review.

If I am not mistaken, the nos2 mode use a finite impulse response filter, which i think is great and must provide a more natural response than oversampling. And Kingwa says that jitter is very low in the end by combining different techniques, which seems to be confirmed by reports on smoothness being excellent. However, using an f-1 with i2s connection like i do also sound very smooth and very accurate. Combined with raising depth to 24 bits with audirvana optimally configured, it is tough to beat i am sure. These are 2 great dacs for sure. It would be even better if both versions were offered in a single piece of equipement. And that it would be possible to synch the dac with the i2s signal optionally. I probably ask for too much (chasing too many rabbits at a time).


----------



## bButcher

Hi FredA,
  

 I've tried them all, even replace stock 98Mhz TCXO with Ablno's femto clock. In the end, F-1 with I2S direct still win big.
 I guess we are kind off topic, so any else to discuss, should move to NOS7's thread.


----------



## rb2013

cornan said:


> The best and cheapest galvantic USB isolation is unshielded wires without 5v power and ground wires on a distance (>4 times the diameter of the wire) from the data wires. No external devices (which require power). Sounds best IMO but need a DAC that does'nt require USB power.
> 
> Ethernet is another ball game. I do get that Ethernet (Cat 5 or 6) is galvanic isolated and see the advantages..but if you got the chance to try a cat8 (Supra for ex.) which is not galvantic isolated you might change your mind. At least I did!
> 
> ...


 

 Just using unshielded wires at a distance to the data wires - it not true USB galvanic isolation.  That can only be done by isolating all connections to the PC like the Intona and even better the USB to TCP Ethernet transcipition devices.
  
 Cat 7 & 8 STP defeat the Ethernet galvanic isolation and should be avoided unless the shielding is detached at the sending end.
  
 Best to use CAT6 UTP.


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Somewhere on the ipower forum threads ifi have actually said that the filtering on the ipower is both incoming and outgoing noise so it shouldn't put out mains noise either.


 

 Untrue it is a SMPS It feeds high level noise back into the AC line - I tested it.  Some have reported they also make mechanic humming noise.
  
 I have a 5VDC for sale in the classifieds.  No match for a TeraDak LPS


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> It would be very interesting to test this to see if (in my configuration) using this Pro3z with external power would negate the need for the extra "Regen" I am using.
> 
> I am guessing because every setup has so many variables,
> that fine tunnig with these things are reason for slight differences..
> ...


 

 Try the W$S Recovery - much better then the Regen.  Had a few of each.


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Hmm actually looking at the new ifi spdif purifier, and the theory behind the Genesis digital lense, it looks like jitter is completely eliminated excluding inherent jitter in the clock/pll used.
> 
> If this is true then a ddc won't probably be necessary anymore with the purifier also having galvanic isolation.
> 
> Correct me if im wrong.


 

 The purpose of a good DDC has nothing to do with SPDIF galvanic isolation - they is built into each device.  It's GI for USB that is the big issue.
  
 SPDIF receivers have 50 psec of jitter - that is something the iFi can not eliminate.
  
 IMO the Mutec MC-3+ USB is much better SPDIF reclocker then the iFi.   Look at what's printed on the iFi SPDIF - says 'reduces jitter', right on the device - no mention of 'eliminating jitter'.
  
 Even the W4S Remedy is a better device.
  
 See DAR's quote:


> If you’ve a Google Chromecast Audio, Sonos Connect, Logitech Squeezebox, Apple TV, Apple Airport Express, Roku – essentially _any_ S/PDIF-restricted streamer – and you can’t stretch to aWyred4Sound Remedy or Empirical Audio Synchro-Mesh to lift the quality of its digital audio output then you’ll probably want to sit up and listen to this.​ Thorsten Loesch has taken some of the S/PDIF input tech found in his high-end AMR DP-777 DAC/pre and applied it to his more affordable iFi Audio product range, specifically the iDSD DAC and Stereo 50 system.​


 
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/ifi-audios-spdif-ipurifier-debuts-at-fujiya-avic-spring-2016/
 Oh the iFi Hype-a-thon - just gets more ridiculous each day!


----------



## FredA

bbutcher said:


> Hi FredA,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes. Thanks bButcher for the info. Interesting mods. Forget my questions on the nos-7, they have been answered now.


----------



## Danutz

Hi,
  
 How could I solder a cut-off end of an hdmi-cable to the F1 in order that it should be possible to be connected to my Nad's M51 Dac hdmi/I2S input?? Possible?
  
 Thanks for a detailed answer, as I'm no expert


----------



## FredA

danutz said:


> Hi,
> 
> How could I solder a cut-off end of an hdmi-cable to the F1 in order that it should be possible to be connected to my Nad's M51 Dac hdmi/I2S input?? Possible?
> 
> Thanks for a detailed answer, as I'm no expert




I don't think that the hdmi inputs on your dac are i2s inputs, so you would have to mod your dac as well.

Otherwise, it would be possible by using an hdmi out module and power it with the 3.3 pin on the 10x2 header. But there is not so much point in using no socket because the length of cable is not so critical with hdmi i2s. 

You could also mod your f-1 as i did and try to add an rj45 i2s to your m51. I could not tell you if it will work, and how easy that would be to do, or if is worth doing it soundwise. The i2s input is the best one on the master-7, could be a different story with a diy input on your dac.


----------



## FredA

freda said:


> Yes. Thanks bButcher for the info. Interesting mods. Forget my questions on the nos-7, they have been answered now.


 
 These mods give me the idea to build a linear psu with diyinhk regulators and a talema transfo, and feed the clean side of the f-1 with it.


----------



## somestranger26

danutz said:


> Hi,
> 
> How could I solder a cut-off end of an hdmi-cable to the F1 in order that it should be possible to be connected to my Nad's M51 Dac hdmi/I2S input?? Possible?
> 
> Thanks for a detailed answer, as I'm no expert


 
 Most HDMI I2S is LVDS, such as PS Audio and Audio-GD. The F1 is single-ended, so it is not compatible with LVDS HDMI inputs.


----------



## FredA

somestranger26 said:


> Most HDMI I2S is LVDS, such as PS Audio and Audio-GD. The F1 is single-ended, so it is not compatible with LVDS HDMI inputs.


 
 A module like this one converts from single-ended to balanced (hdmi):
  
  http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/interfaces/audio-gd-kit-diy-module-d-entree-hdmi-vers-i2s-p-9346.html
  
 It has to be powered with a 3.3v source, available on the f-1 board. The fan-out would have to be checked against the hdmi module requirements.
  
 But it seems like the hdmi on the M51 are regular hdmi inputs, not i2s. From the manufacturor's site:
  
  
_"The M51 offers two HDMI inputs and one output with video pass through. This opens up the possibility of using the M51 Direct Digital DAC as the heart of a "Video 2.0" system using the mandatory two-channel linear PCM soundtrack from Blu-ray or DVD _"


----------



## neogeosnk

Anyone find a good cheapy case for the Singxer F-1 XU208?  I don't like it just hanging around just begging to short out.   Thank you!


----------



## Guidostrunk

The perfect case for the F-1. 
https://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxer-f1-aluminum-cover-case/


neogeosnk said:


> Anyone find a good cheapy case for the Singxer F-1 XU208?  I don't like it just hanging around just begging to short out.   Thank you!


----------



## BucketInABucket

I have one, it's really nice but a bit expensive.


----------



## rb2013

neogeosnk said:


> Anyone find a good cheapy case for the Singxer F-1 XU208?  I don't like it just hanging around just begging to short out.   Thank you!


 

 This one is a near perfect fit.  Just slide the F-1 in and drillout the end plates - attach the SPDIF to one of the holes.  $8.90
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extrusion-Desktop-aluminum-Box-enclosure-3-94-2-72-0-94-L-W-H-hot-/151649052697?hash=item234efce819


----------



## Guidostrunk

Hola Bobby. 
Funny you posted that. I just found that copied that same link and was heading here to post it. Lol. 

Btw, I've been following this thread. Have both the f-1 , and X-1 on the way. Great stuff my friend! 

I'm also following the Dante thread as well. I'm sure I'll be heading that way in the near future. 

Hope all is well bro!

Cheers


rb2013 said:


> This one is a near perfect fit.  Just slide the F-1 in and drillout the end plates - attach the SPDIF to one of the holes.  $8.90
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extrusion-Desktop-aluminum-Box-enclosure-3-94-2-72-0-94-L-W-H-hot-/151649052697?hash=item234efce819


----------



## rb2013

guidostrunk said:


> Hola Bobby.
> Funny you posted that. I just found that copied that same link and was heading here to post it. Lol.
> 
> Btw, I've been following this thread. Have both the f-1 , and X-1 on the way. Great stuff my friend!
> ...


 
 Hey Sammie,
  
 So glad you are on to these - they really are a step-up in digital source.  I'm still amazed at how much of an improvement they make.
  
 Almost as much a nice shiny pair of HG's! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Cheers my friend


----------



## Spark85

Hello all. Sorry my bad English.

 Talking about NAD M51, I have one, and I've been reading the post for some time and I'm wondering if it would be convenient to change USB converter. I would like to know your opinion please.

 Currently I have the Yellowtec Puc2 Lite, and a nano – iUSB3.0 with good results, but I doubt if I can improve the sound.

 Singxer F-1 to have given a better score, and a good price, but I also think that the NAD M51 best entry, is the Balanced XLR

 ¿You believe that having the PUC2 lite, worth purchase the Singxer SU-1 or simply with the Singxer F-1, It would be enough to improve Yellowtec even RCA / SPDIF?

 Thank´s for reply.


----------



## neogeosnk

rb2013 said:


> This one is a near perfect fit.  Just slide the F-1 in and drillout the end plates - attach the SPDIF to one of the holes.  $8.90
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extrusion-Desktop-aluminum-Box-enclosure-3-94-2-72-0-94-L-W-H-hot-/151649052697?hash=item234efce819


 
 Perfect! Thank You!


----------



## rb2013

spark85 said:


> Hello all. Sorry my bad English.
> 
> Talking about NAD M51, I have one, and I've been reading the post for some time and I'm wondering if it would be convenient to change USB converter. I would like to know your opinion please.
> 
> ...


 

 At least in my system the F-1 with a good USB chain (you'll need a few gizmo's) and a clean LPS power supply was better then the excellent PUC2 Lite.
  
 A stock F-1 would be very close to a PUC2 but at much lower cost.
  
 You could improve the USB chain into the PUC2 Lite - another route.  But now you are talking alot more money.  At that level of spending - better to go with a AOIP REDNET 3


----------



## Spark85

Thank you rb2013 for your reply and for the all post.
  
  Indeed I have read about the insulation over ethernet, etc. But are a bit expensive. Possibly because it is not much expense, try the F-1 Or perhaps better to wait for something cheaper arises about AOIP. By the way, I also had the Gustard U12 and agree with you scale values with respect to Yellowtec. It was useful to decide.
  
 Anyway, thanks again and best regards.


----------



## rb2013

spark85 said:


> Thank you rb2013 for your reply and for the all post.
> 
> Indeed I have read about the insulation over ethernet, etc. But are a bit expensive. Possibly because it is not much expense, try the F-1 Or perhaps better to wait for something cheaper arises about AOIP. By the way, I also had the Gustard U12 and agree with you scale values with respect to Yellowtec. It was useful to decide.
> 
> Anyway, thanks again and best regards.


 

 Thanks for the positive feedback
  
 Good Luck


----------



## MHzTweaker

I would like to know where I can reliably purchase a Singxer SU-1 ?
  
 Shenzhen Audio Store has taken my $400 10 days ago and disappeared with it.
 They refused to tell me where my order is only that they will check on it.
 I will open up an claim with eBay at the end of today and dispute the charges if need be.
 What a nightmare this has turned into.
  
  
 There must be somewhere else to order one of these from???


----------



## Hi-Phi

mhztweaker said:


> I would like to know where I can reliably purchase a Singxer SU-1 ?
> 
> Shenzhen Audio Store has taken my $400 10 days ago and disappeared with it.
> They refused to tell me where my order is only that they will check on it.
> ...


 
 Funny you mention that. I also am in the market for a Singxer SU-1. I actually found a place that sells them locally (USA) and I think they have both colors in stock with is good. I'll post a link: https://kitsunehifi.com/


----------



## jabbr

mhztweaker said:


> I would like to know where I can reliably purchase a Singxer SU-1 ?
> 
> Shenzhen Audio Store has taken my $400 10 days ago and disappeared with it.
> They refused to tell me where my order is only that they will check on it.
> ...




Shenzhen Audio is straight, but very bad in communication and also in mentioning if stuff is actually out of stock and has a lead-time.


----------



## MHzTweaker

jabbr said:


> Shenzhen Audio is straight, but very bad in communication and also in mentioning if stuff is actually out of stock and has a lead-time.



 


I can handle something being out of stock or back ordered if they would just tell me what is going on. "I will check on it" several days in a row just doesn't &^$ing cut it in my world. I mean their page says they have 10+ in stock but if they cannot answer a simple question why would their web page be accurate? I know there is both a culture AND a language barrier to deal with as well.


----------



## rb2013

mhztweaker said:


> jabbr said:
> 
> 
> > Shenzhen Audio is straight, but very bad in communication and also in mentioning if stuff is actually out of stock and has a lead-time.
> ...


 

 I have had awful experiences with them when buying the Melodious MX-U8.  I think they do that to gather orders - to then place a block reduced price order with Singxer and increase their profit margins.


----------



## kazsud

I'm willing to sell mine. I have interest in going the 216 route before jumping into red net waters......
  
 It might just be on back order. I bought the F-1 w/ case from their ebay and it oversold. Then the next day I opted to change my order for the SU-1.


----------



## project86

For anyone interested, I recently posted my thoughts on the Singxer SU-1 - link in my sig. 
  
 Hard to see from my terrible pictures, but the XMOS chip on mine actually says "U308" on it. I figured it would have "208" instead. Whatever the case, it's a very nice performer imho, though there are certainly other ways to achieve gains as well. 
  
 Enjoy the music everyone!


----------



## MHzTweaker

It is now VERY unlikely that the SU-1 will be here before my 14 day trial is up on HQPlayer.  Now this really just frosts my cake.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I will wait another week I guess. I just don't know what else to do. I mean these guys are like "THE" supplier of SU-1's


----------



## panhead

mhztweaker said:


> I would like to know where I can reliably purchase a Singxer SU-1 ?
> 
> Shenzhen Audio Store has taken my $400 10 days ago and disappeared with it.
> They refused to tell me where my order is only that they will check on it.
> ...


 
 never had a problem,  but sometimes these items are backordered


----------



## Guidostrunk

I'm on day 25 , waiting for my f-1 , and X-1 , to get here. Finally released from customs in New York. Should be here by Saturday. 

I do believe that it's a supply and demand issue. They didn't ship mine until 12 days after payment. 

I'm a pretty laid back guy , so the wait hasn't bothered me. Lol


----------



## gwitzel

I bought two F1s here:
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/162112976437?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 They seem to sell from the US. It was extremely prompt delivery.


----------



## Hi-Phi

guidostrunk said:


> I'm on day 25 , waiting for my f-1 , and X-1 , to get here. Finally released from customs in New York. Should be here by Saturday.
> 
> I do believe that it's a supply and demand issue. They didn't ship mine until 12 days after payment.
> 
> I'm a pretty laid back guy , so the wait hasn't bothered me. Lol




I talked with KitsuneHifi and they said they have their singxer products in stock and ready to ship from the USA. Also, they gave me a code in their mailing list for singxer stuff, but that expires next month. The kicker is that there are obviously no customs delays since they ship from Lynnwood, WA.


----------



## FredA

panhead said:


> never had a problem,  but sometimes these items are backordered


 
 You have to be patient. It takes usually about 4 weeks to get something from China without paying extra for the shipping.


----------



## abartels

Never had any problems with Shenzhenaudio ( Wang Shuzeng / Tony Wang )
  
 See Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/usr/wsz0304
 See Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wsz0304
  
 See his other audio site: http://www.leiyinaudio.com/
  
  
 Bought goods from him at ebay 8 years ago, and several times after, not any problems, ever. Trustfull seller I would say.
 Communication was good too, sometimes it took a day for him to answer, mostly the same day. Even got some goods
 from him he had to go shopping for, goods from taobao.....
  
  
 Just my 2 cents...


----------



## MHzTweaker

After 9 days my Singxer SU-1 finally ships from Shenzhen Audio
  
 For $400, expedited shipping is built into the price. It shipped the 18th (Thurs) and is due for delivery the 22nd (Mon).
  
 They advertised this as 10+ in stock and ships in under 48 hours. 
 I call B.S. on that one.
  
 I started getting uptight after 6 days and no tracking number. I fired off e-mails Mon-Thurs this week. I went to their Facebook page. I opened a Ticket on their support page to their help desk. I provided a PayPal transaction Reference Number. I kept at it until they basically "shipped another one" according to whoever responded to me. Well, what happened to the first one????? Who knows. I was told "by the end of the day" for 4 days in a row. It was like they had no idea I even ordered this product.
  
 I've ordered from vendors that ship from Hong Kong before. I know the drill. These units are shipped via DHL expedited Air so they get here in a a hurry. My Gustard X20-U was sent like this. Yes it still takes a few days but there is normally tracking and movement within a few days.
  
 UPDATE:  I got a customer service ticket response just now that confirms what happened. Shenzhen Audio was out of stock. A new person in charge of the eBay store did not let me know that the item was out of stock or why there was a delay. I was left to wonder.
 The person in charge of http://www.shenzhenaudio.com web shop for the last 7 years responded to me. The web site seems more organized with an actual service structure in place.
  
 Now only 3 more days.....


----------



## slex

mhztweaker said:


> After 9 days my Singxer SU-1 finally ships from Shenzhen Audio
> 
> For $400, expedited shipping is built into the price. It shipped the 18th (Thurs) and is due for delivery the 22nd (Mon).
> 
> ...




Exactly same situation. Until i told them off, either you give me comfirmation or i will open dispute and buy the Xu216 from diyinhk which my colleage can help to buy during his trip there.

Yesterday, he was asking for my contact for DHL


----------



## classfolkphile

Fwiw I had no problems getting my SU-1 from Shenzhen Audio. It arrived about a week from my placing the order, faster than I expected. Shipping notification was quick. They also responded quickly to a support query I placed.
  
 Review to follow shortly.


----------



## kazsud

Just bought a bnc cable off eBay. Should I be going out the master clock of the su-1 or the normal one?


----------



## rb2013

Great deal on DIYinHK Pro3z in the classifieds:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/817551/diyinhk-dixo-pro3z-usb-to-spdif-converter


----------



## Luckbad

I'm not sure I linked my S/PDIF battle, but the short summary as it relates to this thread is that I found the Singxer SU-1 to be the best bang-for-the-buck device.
  
 http://www.basshead.club/spdif-battle-mutec-singxer-lynx-rednet-et-al/
  
 It's what I'm using at work now. It's nearly as good as the Mutec MC-3+USB (just as good for most DACs) and half the price. I sold the Mutec to save money and have a little less $$$ on my desk at work.


----------



## gldgate

luckbad said:


> I'm not sure I linked my S/PDIF battle, but the short summary as it relates to this thread is that I found the Singxer SU-1 to be the best bang-for-the-buck device.
> 
> http://www.basshead.club/spdif-battle-mutec-singxer-lynx-rednet-et-al/
> 
> It's what I'm using at work now. It's nearly as good as the Mutec MC-3+USB (just as good for most DACs) and half the price. I sold the Mutec to save money and have a little less $$$ on my desk at work.


 
  
 Very nice write-up. I also was somewhat skeptical until I had the devices in my system. Devices like RedNet and Mutec helped open my eyes to the Pro Audio market. Lots of interesting stuff going on there. Funny how in the end both the consumer and Pro guys want the same thing (great sound) yet the two groups don't often mix.


----------



## panhead

luckbad said:


> I'm not sure I linked my S/PDIF battle, but the short summary as it relates to this thread is that I found the Singxer SU-1 to be the best bang-for-the-buck device.
> 
> http://www.basshead.club/spdif-battle-mutec-singxer-lynx-rednet-et-al/
> 
> It's what I'm using at work now. It's nearly as good as the Mutec MC-3+USB (just as good for most DACs) and half the price. I sold the Mutec to save money and have a little less $$$ on my desk at work.


 
 great write up,  thanks


----------



## intrepidcase

Thanks for the great writeup! It confirmed some suspicions that I had after upgrading from a Gustard U-12 to an F-1. Soundstage, separation of instruments, detail, transparency were all amazing except that there is still a little bit of digital hash/glare leftover. While it's still an amazing product for the price, I am going to try the SU-1 next - they have them in stock at https://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxersu1silver/


----------



## slex

Perhaps the hash/glare of the F1 can be mitigated by a cleaner power source?


----------



## slex

The ifi s/pdif ipurifier is on the market now. I hope it help to mitigate expensive coax cable.

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-spdif-ipurifier/


----------



## intrepidcase

I have been 


slex said:


> Perhaps the hash/glare of the F1 can be mitigated by a cleaner power source?


 

 I have been using an Intona in front of the F-1 but not a dedicated LPS or such. So yes, hoping the SU-1's built in LPS is part of the improvement/difference reported.


----------



## intrepidcase

slex said:


> Perhaps the hash/glare of the F1 can be mitigated by a cleaner power source?


 

 I have been using an Intona in front of the F-1 but no dedicated LPS/power supply. Hoping that the SU-1's built in LPS will help make a difference here ...
  Edit: sorry for the double post


----------



## slex

intrepidcase said:


> I have been using an Intona in front of the F-1 but no dedicated LPS/power supply. Hoping that the SU-1's built in LPS will help make a difference here ...
> Edit: sorry for the double post




Yup, i will definitely think so, one of the advantages of SU1 beside good power is the i2s trannsmission. Why not wait up for more reputable DDC like gustard or audiogd, im sure they will come up soon enough since you already have a F1?


----------



## intrepidcase

slex said:


> Yup, i will definitely think so, one of the advantages of SU1 beside good power is the i2s trannsmission. Why not wait up for more reputable DDC like gustard or audiogd, im sure they will come up soon enough since you already have a F1?


 

 Good question. I still have the older Gustard U-12 and while at the time it was an improvement in DDC's, it didn't use the greatest components for it's regulators/power supply etc. Certainly not compared to the SU-1. So why would one expect that a new Gustard implementation of the xmos xu208/216 would be better than the SU-1?? Maybe the easier answer is that I am impatient to solve this particular part of my system


----------



## eschell27

Awesome write up man...not the first time i've looked to your opinions based on experiences when considering equipment purchases, i'm sure it won't be the last. I'm definitely getting an SU-1 soon to pair with my dac-19 which i want to convert to NOS-19 if i can find someone to help locally. (don't really wanna send it off for a month to china to get it converted) 
 Anyway... Thanks again!


----------



## FredA

intrepidcase said:


> I have been
> 
> 
> I have been using an Intona in front of the F-1 but not a dedicated LPS or such. So yes, hoping the SU-1's built in LPS is part of the improvement/difference reported.




I tried the same combination, with a schiit wyrd before the intona. Swapping order and putting the wyrd just before the f-1 gave a substantial upgrade, So the f-1 benefits greatly from an excellent psu (the wyrd regulates the 5v line to 2.5uV).


----------



## neogeosnk

I found that using the wyrd gets before the F1 gets rid of all the issues everyone is talking about (swoosh and harshness).  Just ordered a second Singxer F1/case  from Kitsune Hifi, $213 total shipped from the united states.


----------



## MHzTweaker

Well my waiting is finally over.
  
 DHL delivered my Singxer SU-1 at 11AM + some extras
 How did they know I needed some earbud replacement thingeys???
  
 Hopefully now I can experience my Gustard X20U at DSD256


----------



## neogeosnk

I was have a promo code for buying a Singxer F1 from Kitsune Hifi to give away.  They also have free shipping code on the site, so should be cheaper (with code) than any chinese place plus it's in the united states so should be here a lot faster.  PM me if interested.  No I don't work for Kitsune, just an audio nerd like everyone here.


----------



## eschell27

How is that usb cable that comes with the SU-1? It looks halfway decent from the pics...


----------



## MHzTweaker

It may be tomorrow before I get a chance to connect everything.
  
 The USB cable that came with my SU-1 appears to be identical to this one:
 https://www.amazon.com/Shengwei-Cable-Type-Printer-Scanner/dp/B01FZ34D72/ref=pd_day0_147_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=10SNRK3720YVCN2SE1J3
  
 According to the images is has a braided AND a foil shield as well as dual layers of PVC.
 It could also have ferrite cores on each end but I cannot 100% confirm this other than the molded "bumps". I mean what else could they be?


----------



## slex

mhztweaker said:


> It may be tomorrow before I get a chance to connect everything.
> 
> The USB cable that came with my SU-1 appears to be identical to this one:
> https://www.amazon.com/Shengwei-Cable-Type-Printer-Scanner/dp/B01FZ34D72/ref=pd_day0_147_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=10SNRK3720YVCN2SE1J3
> ...




Use the i2S transmission? I believe you have the latest gustard dac?


----------



## MHzTweaker

slex said:


> Use the i2S transmission? I believe you have the latest gustard dac?


 

 I do not understand your post. Are you asking me a question?
  
 In my previous post that you quoted I am simply commenting on what I received after waiting 2 weeks from Shenzhen audio.


----------



## abartels

mhztweaker said:


> slex said:
> 
> 
> > Use the i2S transmission? I believe you have the latest gustard dac?
> ...


 
  
 I think he meant to "ask" you to connect them with I2S if you have latest Gustard X20 Dac, which you have.


----------



## MHzTweaker

abartels said:


> I think he meant to "ask" you to connect them with I2S if you have latest Gustard X20 Dac, which you have.


 

 Oh, Okay. Yes. I will use the HDMI connector to connect the SU-1 to my Gustard X20 for DSD256 (I2S).
 I will connect the SU-1 to a Network Audio Adapter (Win 10 PC)
 I have a brand new Win 10 PC that will serve as an N.A.A. for the HQPlayer PC.
  
 The Network Audio Adapter PC is based on the following specs:
  
 Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 5  motherboard with DAC/UP USB port (somewhat isolated I think)
 Intel i3-6100 CPU @ 3.7GHz  (power saving and downclocking disabled)
 16GB G.Skill DDR4-3200 RAM  w/ 14-14-14-34 latency
 Samsung SM951 M.2  128GB SSD
 Intel NIC 10Gbit SR fiber to the network switch
 Noctua NH-L9i CPU fan and case fan is powered by external DC power brick
 eVGA Supernova platinum rated power supply (Leadtek low ripple design)
 Fidelizer Software
 I turned off as many things as I could to allow the NAA to do audio without many of the  associated processes running.
 I think there are like 25 or maybe 35 processes running as opposed to 75+ on most Win10 boxes.
  
 Other than the Singxer SU-1 and ATX power, no other copper wired connections are made to the motherboard.
 The HQPlayer software runs on an Intel i7-6700K PC with similar specs to the NAA (except CPU) also it has an nVidia 1070 GPU


----------



## Guidostrunk

Ok folks. I'm having a hard time getting the X-1 to make a connection with my Theta dac (Pro Prime IIa). 

I'm currently without my laptop, it's being serviced, and haven't been able to try it as of yet with the Theta. 

So I'm using my phone via otg>X-1>Theta>Woo Wa6. When I use my transport(Pioneer DVD-V7400) everything works perfect. When I switch to my phone and use the X-1 to the Theta, the Theta lock signal shuts off as soon as I hit play to stream music. I'm using Spotify premium, and I'm pretty sure their sample rate is 16/44.1?

Prior to the signal light shutting off on the Theta, it glows blue and is locked. Once the PLAY light , lights up on the X-1 , the blue(locked singal) immediately shuts off. No sound whatsoever. 

Are there any settings that I should change or be aware of that may be causing this? Possibly with the X-1? Just really confused and haven't messed with these USB bridges before. 

Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

guidostrunk said:


> Ok folks. I'm having a hard time getting the X-1 to make a connection with my Theta dac (Pro Prime IIa).
> 
> I'm currently without my laptop, it's being serviced, and haven't been able to try it as of yet with the Theta.
> 
> ...


You need to have the XMOS Thesycon driver loaded. Does your phone allow that?


----------



## Guidostrunk

My man Bobby!!! I hope so. Lol. Is there a specific place to download the driver? 





rb2013 said:


> You need to have the XMOS Thesycon driver loaded. Does your phone allow that?


----------



## slex

Just checking, anyone got it work on ios9 ipad4 for the F1?


----------



## pele1969

The f-1 works with the Singxer-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver_v3.20.0. but has no option to adjust latency.
  
 Is there also a XMOS Thesycon driver I can use, that gives me that option, and if so, where do I get it?


----------



## Albrecht

slex said:


> The ifi s/pdif ipurifier is on the market now. I hope it help to mitigate expensive coax cable.
> 
> http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-spdif-ipurifier/


 

 So cool.....
  
  
 Thank you very much.....
  
 Do you know where to buy?


----------



## Clemmaster

rb2013 said:


> You need to have the XMOS Thesycon driver loaded. Does your phone allow that?


 
 There's no driver needed on linux based OSes.
 Unless he has a windows phone, he doesn't need anything.
  
 @Guidostrunk,
 Do you have an android phone? They output a 192kHz audio signal through USB, which your old Theta DAC cannot lock to.
  
 Try USB Audio Player Pro - which outputs the correct 44.1 - to see if it works. It has TIDAL integration, but I don't know about Spotify.


----------



## rb2013

guidostrunk said:


> My man Bobby!!! I hope so. Lol. Is there a specific place to download the driver?


 

 Hey Sam - The seller should have provided a link and password to download Singxer's latest XMOS driver (not needed on MACs just PC's).


----------



## slex

albrecht said:


> So cool.....
> 
> 
> Thank you very much.....
> ...




Check your local dealer? I have an ifi dealer locally.


----------



## slex

Does this F1 improve after a period of burn in?


----------



## rb2013

slex said:


> Does this F1 improve after a period of burn in?


 

 Yes - 100 hrs min


----------



## slex

rb2013 said:


> Yes - 100 hrs min




Ok thanks,unfortunately F1 doesn't support ipad now.Temporily using my aged Sony android now . Let see how it pan out when I use the USB C type android tablet tomolo.

The soundstage ambient is definitely wider at this stage now.


----------



## rb2013

slex said:


> Ok thanks,unfortunately F1 doesn't support ipad now.Temporily using my aged Sony android now . Let see how it pan out when I use the USB C type android tablet tomolo.
> 
> The soundstage ambient is definitely wider at this stage now.


 

 Will try on my LG 4G this morning (this phone has some pretty amazing SQ - way better then my old Samsung Galaxy.


----------



## r11bordo

Both Singxer F-1 and Dxio Pro3z ordered this week. I will compare these interfaces and add a dedicated PSU to the Pro3z. I will post a feedback after burn in and tests on another systems.


----------



## Jerryfan

Looking forward to this.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Thanks a ton Clem! UAPP , did in fact work! No Spotify support though. Lol.

Now the problem I'm having is getting the driver for my laptop. I bought the x-1 , and f-1 , from the same ebay seller. The f-1 , didn't make it in shipping. So , the link they sent me 2 days ago , was this:
 

I sent another message stating that it was crap. Haven't heard a word back from them yet. I even sent a follow-up message yesterday, and notta. So , basically, I'm stuck with an X-1 with no drivers. I picked my laptop up today , hoping to get the ball rolling. 
So I guess the X-1 is worthless with my laptop , if I can't get the drivers. Is there any other way to get the drivers other than the seller link? *fingers crossed!

Cheers


clemmaster said:


> There's no driver needed on linux based OSes.
> Unless he has a windows phone, he doesn't need anything.
> 
> @Guidostrunk
> ...


----------



## bButcher

guidostrunk said:


> So , basically, I'm stuck with an X-1 with no drivers


 
  
 Have you checked "http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/x-1-digital-interface-module-xu208-xmos-usb-interface-u8-updated-version.html";
 download from "http://download.shenzhenaudio.com/drivers/x-1.zip"


----------



## Guidostrunk

THANKS! 


bbutcher said:


> Have you checked "http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/x-1-digital-interface-module-xu208-xmos-usb-interface-u8-updated-version.html";
> download from "http://download.shenzhenaudio.com/drivers/x-1.zip"


----------



## Wil

Singxer SU-1 in the house!
  
 Laptop via USB to ifi iUSB (Gemini cables) -> Ipurifier 2 -> Singxer SU1 -> I2S to Gustard X20. 
  
The Gustard has noticeably better separation, a much blacker background and manages to sound more analogue yet having more micro details at the same time. There is way more depth to the music as well ( more layers to the music I Guess?)
  
Fantastic improvement in overall _blackness_ of the background.


----------



## defbear

I received my Singxer SU-1 this weekend. I purchased it to use with my Audio-gd Master 11. The Singxer SU-1 has a i2s hdmi output and the Master 11 has a i2s hdmi input. The SU-1 seemed like the most comfortable i2s solution. I found it on Kitsune. I don't think I would have ordered it direct from China this time. I have them hooked together with a Wireworld .3M ultraviolet i2s HDMI cable also from Kitsune. A nice turnkey solution. I had been running my MacBook Pro USB into a UpTone Audio REGEN. I never heard much difference with the Regen. It didn't seem to harm anything so it was there for luck. I also have an Intona Industrial Version USB Isolator. I use it with my Bimby / microZOTL Combonation. I got it direct from Intona. I do not know why they bother with the Standard Version. I would buy the Intona again in a heartbeat. It makes the Bimby microZOTL combo more buzzword compliant. More bass, better instrument separation, bigger, deeper and or more accurate soundstage. Remind me what I've left out. It was with the same goal in mind I ordered the SU-1 from Kitsune. It arrived in about a week. Ok the real reason was that I just had to try the i2s input on the Master 11. To make it short, Good Job Singxer! You should just read the post above from @Wil above. He got it right. Ok with the Master 11 everything worked off the bat. I used both Audurvana and Amarra. As if the Master 11 wasn't smooth enough, the SU-1 ushered in an entire new level of smoothness. I think an even better description is the Singxer SU-1 just sounds Clean. The enhanced level of detail is readily apparent. The enhanced level detail of the reverbs on various recording was outstanding. I then ran a coax cable from the SU-1 to the Bimby. Whatever improvements I heard with the Master 11 were just exaggerated with the Bimby/microZOTL. There is no going back. I have not tried the Intona in front of the SU-1 but I will for giggles. Every time I think things can't sound better, I occasionally get a nice leap forward with a device like the Singer SU-1. I really can't wait until the Holo Spring Dac 3 arrives. Uh, am I going to need a new amp?


----------



## Loquah

Hi all. Firstly, apologies because I haven't had time to read the whole thread so I'm hoping you can help me out with a specific question. Will a Singxer F-1 offer a significant improvement over a high quality USB-coax converter using the older XMOS chip? (Specifically the Matrix X-SPDIF)


----------



## rb2013

loquah said:


> Hi all. Firstly, apologies because I haven't had time to read the whole thread so I'm hoping you can help me out with a specific question. Will a Singxer F-1 offer a significant improvement over a high quality USB-coax converter using the older XMOS chip? (Specifically the Matrix X-SPDIF)


 

 About 90% sure it's a Yes.  For best results the F-1 needs to externally powered by a LPS or decent Li-ion battery.  I have a TeraDak X1/X2 LPS up for sale on the classifieds - it comes with a USB power breakout cable.


----------



## chauphuong

loquah said:


> Hi all. Firstly, apologies because I haven't had time to read the whole thread so I'm hoping you can help me out with a specific question. Will a Singxer F-1 offer a significant improvement over a high quality USB-coax converter using the older XMOS chip? (Specifically the Matrix X-SPDIF)



I connect Singxer SU1 before Matrix X Sabre. What a tremendous job it does. Sound become much more comfortable for listening. Su1 works with magic. Forget the likes of Regen and Intona.


----------



## motberg

chauphuong said:


> I connect Singxer SU1 before Matrix X Sabre. What a tremendous job it does. Sound become much more comfortable for listening. Su1 works with magic. Forget the likes of Regen and Intona.


 

 It would be good to note that the Regen and Intona do different things than the SU1.
 I have all 3 devices (Regen, Intona Industrial, and SU1)
 The best sound in my system is USB->Intona->W4S Recovery->Tanly DDC
  
 (This was with only 50 hours on the SU1, so maybe the SU1 will become better with more break-in, but for now the Tanly is superior in my system)


----------



## chauphuong

Of course those stuffs work differently. But as an end user I care only about changes of sound.


----------



## classfolkphile

chauphuong said:


> Of course those stuffs work differently. But as an end user I care only about changes of sound.


 

 The point being that they are meant to be complimentary to each other, not simple replacements.


----------



## classfolkphile

motberg said:


> (This was with only 50 hours on the SU1, so maybe the SU1 will become better with more break-in, but for now the Tanly is superior in my system)


 
  
 My SU-1 sounded very tight until at least 60-70 hours. It improved again at just over 100 hours (which is where I'm at now).


----------



## motberg

classfolkphile said:


> My SU-1 sounded very tight until at least 60-70 hours. It improved again at just over 100 hours (which is where I'm at now).


 

 Thanks for the info.... I am setting up now to give it some significantly more break-in time before again checking vs. the Tanly.. (the Tanly has months of playing time on it)
 I will get back to you guys with some additional comments early next week..


----------



## chauphuong

Would love to hear feedback on its combination with wyrd4s recovery which i am thinking of buying one. Tks


----------



## classfolkphile

chauphuong said:


> Would love to hear feedback on its combination with wyrd4s recovery which i am thinking of buying one. Tks


 

 I don't have the Recovery but I do have the Regen which I loved with my previous converter (AR-T Legato). I didn't like the Regen with the SU-1 but it could be that was because the latter wasn't broken in yet. However I now also have a PS Audio Lanrover and that improves the sound of the SU-1 by producing an even smoother, blacker background, with additional harmonic richness. The last quality was also increased by using the Regen before the Lanrover, while the system sounded worse with the Regen after it.
  
 Again, this was all before full break in of the SU-1 so maybe I'll revisit everything at some point. I need a break from moving everything around and doing multiple close comparisons right now.


----------



## rb2013

classfolkphile said:


> I don't have the Recovery but I do have the Regen which I loved with my previous converter (AR-T Legato). I didn't like the Regen with the SU-1 but it could be that was because the latter wasn't broken in yet. However I now also have a PS Audio Lanrover and that improves the sound of the SU-1 by producing an even smoother, blacker background, with additional harmonic richness. The last quality was also increased by using the Regen before the Lanrover, while the system sounded worse with the Regen after it.
> 
> Again, this was all before full break in of the SU-1 so maybe I'll revisit everything at some point. I need a break from moving everything around and doing multiple close comparisons right now.


 

 Good info.  I just listed my Recovery and Startech GB LAN USB extender (similar to the PS Audio) for sale on the classifieds.
  
 I had both the Regen and the Recovery and much preferred the Recovery with the F-1 - the add plus makes adding a LPS easier and uses ultra low noise regulators to filter the power noise even lower.  Has a DC 9VDC port port.


----------



## VilMo

Anyone curious whether the new iFi S/PDIF iPurifier will bring any SQ benefit to the Singxer F1/SU-1 or the SPDIF output of the F1/SU-1 is good enough?
  
 Mr. Darko's review from today seems to include lower tier sources - http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/09/ifi-spdif-ipurifier-entry-level-pricing-next-level-results/ .
  
 I do not have the funds to experiment at the moment, unfortunately, but this device seems interesting. I am using a Nano iUSB3.0 before the F1 and the results are quite good. Surprisingly though, the SPDIF output of a Pioneer N30 network player I have is even better - more dynamic sound and blacker background. I get the same results with 2 different DACs (Marantz HD-DAC1 and Modi Multibit). Cans are Fidelio X2.
  
 Do you think the SQ of the F1 can be raised even futher using the S/PDIF iPurifier?


----------



## User471

I've had one of these

http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html

for about a week now

Running of a nominal 5v linear power supply (just a cheap from eBay) 

My DAC has an XMOS receiver itself (an earlier version I assume but I don't know for sure) so I am able to compare quite easily

The S/PDIF input is much more detailed with the voices and instruments being more distinctly separated in space

It might be a touch harsher on poor quality recordings but it is nonetheless my default input now

Toying with the idea of a better power supply, so any suggestions welcome


----------



## lazz

I'm wanting to dip my toes in some of these devices. But was wondering if it's possible or has anyone added a AES/EBU out to the Singxer F1.


----------



## occamsrazor

lazz said:


> I'm wanting to dip my toes in some of these devices. But was wondering if it's possible or has anyone added a AES/EBU out to the Singxer F1.


 
  
 I don't know about fitting an AES output to an F1, but just checking you are aware the SU-1 (albeit more costly) has an AES/EBU output?
  
 http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singxer-su-1-usb-digital-interface-with-xmos-xu208-cpld-dsd256-dop.html


----------



## Maxx134

user471 said:


> I've had one of these
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html
> 
> ...



Why not get the iPower ?
This small PSU makes a noticeable improvement from the Regen PSU which is triple the size but obviously not better..

when upgrading, Look into the specs for how well regulated the PSU is.


----------



## Benny-x

motberg said:


> Thanks for the info.... I am setting up now to give it some significantly more break-in time before again checking vs. the Tanly.. (the Tanly has months of playing time on it)
> I will get back to you guys with some additional comments early next week..


 

I'm also looking forward to what you find out here. And it's nice to see that you started out by saying so far the Tanly sounds better, makes me believe you aren't getting caught up in the SU-1 quite yet.


----------



## User471

maxx134 said:


> Why not get the iPower ?
> This small PSU makes a noticeable improvement from the Regen PSU which is triple the size but obviously not better..
> 
> when upgrading, Look into the specs for how well regulated the PSU is.




Thanks I will give it a look

Was also thinking about the Teddy Prado


----------



## happyguitarist

Sorry for the off-topic post, but does anyone know if there is a product from DXIO/Singxer or a similar company that goes from SPDIF to USB?  For example, if I am trying to record music and I want to go from the SPDIF out of a Mytek ADC into the usb of my computer.  Thanks!


----------



## kazsud

user471 said:


> I've had one of these
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/111-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll have the ifi ipower saturday to try with mine. Will let you know if it's better than my generic lps.


----------



## somestranger26

happyguitarist said:


> Sorry for the off-topic post, but does anyone know if there is a product from DXIO/Singxer or a similar company that goes from SPDIF to USB?  For example, if I am trying to record music and I want to go from the SPDIF out of a Mytek ADC into the usb of my computer.  Thanks!


 
 Mutec MC-1.2 might be what you're looking for, although it is about $500. http://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-12.php


----------



## User471

kazsud said:


> I'll have the ifi ipower saturday to try with mine. Will let you know if it's better than my generic lps.




I'd be interested in that thank you


----------



## happyguitarist

somestranger26 said:


> Mutec MC-1.2 might be what you're looking for, although it is about $500. http://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-12.php


 
 Thanks!


----------



## drez

Any idea what the +3.3V pin on the output header are connected to?  Do these bypass the power supplies to the CPLD and clocks?  
  
 Might be easy enough just to hook up the 3.3V supply from inside my NFB7.32 while I sort out ultimate power supply.  So frustrated I missed the Salas R-D group buy.
  
 I mean the other thing does anyone know what the maximum power draw from the XMOS chip is?  I see in specs 170mV average.  I know ADP150 only can do 150mV or somethine.  ADP151 200mV might be safer but still if I can't find out max power draw no point making things worse.


----------



## bButcher

drez said:


> Any idea what the +3.3V pin on the output header are connected to?  Do these bypass the power supplies to the CPLD and clocks?
> 
> Might be easy enough just to hook up the 3.3V supply from inside my NFB7.32 while I sort out ultimate power supply.  So frustrated I missed the Salas R-D group buy.
> 
> I mean the other thing does anyone know what the maximum power draw from the XMOS chip is?  I see in specs 170mV average.  I know ADP150 only can do 150mV or somethine.  ADP151 200mV might be safer but still if I can't find out max power draw no point making things worse.


 
  
 +3.3V connect directly to cpld's LDO 3.3V output.
  
                                  --- generic LDO ---   CPLD
                                 /                       \_   Isolation chips
 Mornsun B0505S -----|                         \_  20 pin output header (3.3V)
                                \
                                 --- ADP150 ---- CCHD XOs
  
 Power consumption for the whole clean section is about 45 mA (measured value), haven't measured the dirty section yet.
 B0505S's output current rating is 20 ~ 200 mA.
  
 If you plan to replace LDO for XMOS, definitely ADP151 will be a better choice.


----------



## drez

bbutcher said:


> +3.3V connect directly to cpld's LDO 3.3V output.
> 
> --- generic LDO ---   CPLD
> /                       \_   Isolation chips
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the information.  Shame I was hoping for an easier solution to getting rid of the B0505S.  Much appreciated.
  
 LT3042 based LPSU might have to do (I guess probably not big deal as it's pre regulator).  I should order parts so I stop agonising over the PSU.


----------



## bButcher

Just measured power draw for XMOS; while playing 44.1k PCM: around 20mA, playing 352k PCM: around 25mA. don't have reading for DSD playing (don't know how to do that); No idea why it is far below XMOS typical value, maybe the implementation haven't used the full power of XMOS 208.
  
 Don't feel bad for Salas, if you compare spec with LT3042, it's pretty much at the same level, refer to "https://linearaudio.net/downloads" fig 5 ~ fig 9.


----------



## bButcher

O.K. I know why the measurement is so low; It's because 3.3V ldo only supply XMOS's peripheral pin and isolation chips. So it's just part of the total power consumption.


----------



## rayofsi

diyinhk offers 2 versions of XMOS 768kHz DXD DSD512(DSD1024)
  
 any idea if being isolated is a big deal?


----------



## r11bordo

Dxio Pro3z received and burn in has started. No direct comparison yet with Audiophilleo but it seems sound is clearer with pro3z.
Delivery ultra fast from diyinhk.


----------



## drez

bbutcher said:


> O.K. I know why the measurement is so low; It's because 3.3V ldo only supply XMOS's peripheral pin and isolation chips. So it's just part of the total power consumption.


 
  
 Ah no worries, thanks so much for measuring.  I guess I may as well replace with ADP150 as they came in packet of 5.
  
 Thanks also regarding the Salas.  It looks like it would have been much more complicated to put together and wire anyway (although the documentation seemed good).  LT3042 will serve well to cut my teeth.


----------



## r11bordo

A Singxer SU-1 review here : http://www.head-fi.org/products/singxer-su-1-usb-bridge/reviews/16649.

I enough agree with this review regarding the differences I can hear between my Audiophilleo and the Pro3z with the last xmos chipset


----------



## Radiohead99

What I2S cable you guys are using with SU-1? I am guessing the quality of the cable matters.


----------



## mz2014

As short as possible


----------



## Yviena

Has anyone tried replacing the ADP150 with  a even lower noise ldo? considering replacing it with the lt3042 ldo.


----------



## bButcher

yviena said:


> Has anyone tried replacing the ADP150 with  a even lower noise ldo? considering replacing it with the lt3042 ldo.


 
 I ordered two lt3042 modules last week, should arrive within couple of days.


----------



## kazsud

I found the i2s pin layout for ps audio but I don't know what switches to tweak on the su-1..........


----------



## bimmer100

kazsud said:


> I found the i2s pin layout for ps audio but I don't know what switches to tweak on the su-1..........


 
  
 Did you get the manual with your SU-1? if now, please download the manual/driver pack here. 
 there is pdf inside that explains it in detail
  
 FYI, customs has pulled the CD"s out of many of the SU-1's that ship to the USA. They won't be shipping with CD's anymore.
 so whom you purchased from will have a download link to get the manuals/drivers.
  
 It's out of control at customs lately.


----------



## kazsud

bimmer100 said:


> Did you get the manual with your SU-1? if now, please download the manual/driver pack here.
> there is pdf inside that explains it in detail
> 
> FYI, customs has pulled the CD"s out of many of the SU-1's that ship to the USA. They won't be shipping with CD's anymore.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## mrflibble

Hi
  
 I noticed that the Mutec MC-1.2 can be powered from USB. Has anybody used a linear power supply via USB to power it? It would be interesting to know who powering via LPS / USB compares to the internal SMPS. Maybe it would push the performance of the device closer to its big brother or the Singxer SU1?
  
Cheers!


----------



## MHzTweaker

radiohead99 said:


> What I2S cable you guys are using with SU-1? I am guessing the quality of the cable matters.


 
  
 Currently I'm using a rather inexpensive cable.
 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002U3161M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  
  
 Overall I have not dumped a lot of money into cables. I just not sure I can hear the difference.
 Besides, I have issues with my listening room that need to be corrected that I CAN hear. (Modes).


----------



## classfolkphile

I've had the Singxer SU-1 for a while and have about 115-120 hours on it now, so I'll share my impressions. The unit replaced an AR-T Legato (original). The rest of my system is as follows:
  
 2010 Mac Mini (8GB RAM, SSD, LaCie 5TB HD)>USB Cable>Singxer SU-1>PAD Aqueous Aureus Praesto Digital IC (BNC)>Eastern Electric DAC Plus (Dexa op-amps and modded)>Kaplan GS Mk2.5 ICs>Rogue Cronus Magnum (modded, with KT66s and NOS signal tubes)>Kaplan GS MKII SCs>Aural Acoustic Model B speakers. Furutech dedicated outlet, TWL PCs, and PI Audio Digi-Buss & Buss-Stop power conditioners.
  
 On first hookup the SU-1 immediately conveyed a much blacker background and much more micro detail, image separation and powerful dynamics. It was also very dry, glassy, lean and, most noticeably, tight sounding, with a more constrained lateral soundstage although depth was increased. After 10 hours, the glassiness went away.  
  
 On the plus side, the SU-1 conveyed accurate and extended bass, and prominent (but not overdone) leading edge transients. Trailing edge transients were just adequately long. The held note, however was slightly truncated, the midrange lean/recessed. 
  
 At around the 40 hour mark the PS Audio LanRover arrived and was added. This provided an even blacker background, more prominent bass and a fuller midrange. Interestingly the Uptone Regen by itself did not improve the sound of the SU-1 (although it had made an unalloyed major improvement with the Legato). Placed after the LanRover the sound also deteriorated; placed before it, it added some additional needed fullness to the sound.
  
 At this point it would be useful to mention that I could not get the SU-1 to consistently work with my longer (.75m) PI Audio USB cable: either direct from the Mac Mini or from the Mini to either the LanRover or Regen. The inexpensive included cable worked every time. Because it has ferrite cores on it? I don't know but it is strange because, as long as I used the included cable out of the Mac, I was able to use two short PI Audio USB cables out from the LanRover and/or Regen into the SU-1 without any problems. And yes, I checked that the longer cable worked on other equipment. I have a query into Dave Elledge of PI Audio to see what light he can shed on this.
  
 It took around 70 hours for the tightness from the SU-1 to subside and the soundstage to open up but the leanness remained. Finally, at over 100 hours, the mid-range filled out and aligned with the treble and bass and harmony was restored.
  
 To check on the effect of each piece of gear, I then removed the Regen and LanRover (individually and together). To my great surprise I preferred the sound without either of these units. They both added an overly weighty and bloomy bass and an artificial "hi-fiish" quality to the music. Without them the sound is very revealing, neutral and balanced: to the extent that it's made more obvious some pre-existing weaknesses in my system that need to be addressed.
  
 IMO, the Singxer SU-1 is an excellent bargain.


----------



## Duy Le

radiohead99 said:


> What I2S cable you guys are using with SU-1? I am guessing the quality of the cable matters.


 
 I use this cable http://www.adl-av.com/products/cables/hdmi/
 Some cheap cables may have issue with DSD.


----------



## rb2013

classfolkphile said:


> I've had the Singxer SU-1 for a while and have about 115-120 hours on it now, so I'll share my impressions. The unit replaced an AR-T Legato (original). The rest of my system is as follows:
> 
> 2010 Mac Mini (8GB RAM, SSD, LaCie 5TB HD)>USB Cable>Singxer SU-1>PAD Aqueous Aureus Praesto Digital IC (BNC)>Eastern Electric DAC Plus (Dexa op-amps and modded)>Kaplan GS Mk2.5 ICs>Rogue Cronus Magnum (modded, with KT66s and NOS signal tubes)>Kaplan GS MKII SCs>Aural Acoustic Model B speakers. Furutech dedicated outlet, TWL PCs, and PI Audio Digi-Buss & Buss-Stop power conditioners.
> 
> ...


 

 Great review!  My experience with the similar Startech GB LAN USB extender is that using a LPS to feed the sender and receiver unit made a significant difference - as did using a BJC CAT6 550Mhz cable between the units.  You might want to try this, if you haven't already.


----------



## classfolkphile

I should have noted that I did use the BJC CAT 6 cable which did make a nice, though relatively small, difference. I also should have noted that utilizing the LanRover to move the Mac Mini out of the audio room also made a subtle difference: a bit more smoothness and a slightly quieter background. But ultimately - having limited funds - I decided that the money for the LanRover and a LPS would be better spent on upgrading my DAC. I've just ordered a Lampizator Amber II.


----------



## rb2013

classfolkphile said:


> I should have noted that I did use the BJC CAT 6 cable which did make a nice, though relatively small, difference. I also should have noted that utilizing the LanRover to move the Mac Mini out of the audio room also made a subtle difference: a bit more smoothness and a slightly quieter background. But ultimately - having limited funds - I decided that the money for the LanRover and a LPS would be better spent on upgrading my DAC. I've just ordered a Lampizator Amber II.


 

 Thanks!


----------



## r11bordo

Hi,
I have just received the Singxer F1 interface and I can hear the same issues described by classfolkphile for the moment (just 2 hours burnt in). Regarding the dxio pro3z, the f1 sounds clearer with less dephness for the moment.


----------



## kazsud

How many hours on the pro3z?


----------



## kazsud

How much better is the lps in the SU-1 than the ifi ipower ones?


----------



## r11bordo

kazsud said:


> How many hours on the pro3z?



Around 20 hours I would say.


----------



## occamsrazor

Can someone kindly clarify something for me about the Singxer SU-1: Does it support DSD512 over the i2s output or only DSD256?


----------



## ldp216

So, can you use a data-only usb cable with the pro3z, if you power it externally? It'd be awesome if it was battery powered, too! And, then, if you used a dac that didn't require 5v usb bus power... that might make for a really good overall feed into your speakers or headphones.


----------



## MHzTweaker

occamsrazor said:


> Can someone kindly clarify something for me about the Singxer SU-1: Does it support DSD512 over the i2s output or only DSD256?


 
  
 No
  
 Only DSD256, but.....
 It does it VERY well.
  
 In my opinion the extreme bit rate DSD sampling rates for the sake of higher bit rates is overrated.
  
 There is still work to be done along the signal chain not to mention recorded source material.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/780385/gustard-x20-dac/900#post_12856296


----------



## taz23

ldp216 said:


> So, can you use a data-only usb cable with the pro3z, if you power it externally? It'd be awesome if it was battery powered, too! And, then, if you used a dac that didn't require 5v usb bus power... that might make for a really good overall feed into your speakers or headphones.


 
 I was inclined to say it can be done, but I thought I should check...  
  
 I just tried using a USB adapter that removes the power signal, and that causes the pro3z to be undetectable (even when it is powered by a 5v LPS).  So the answer is you still need the 5v for the handshake.
  
 I am very impressed with the pro3z currently, but I have not tried SU-1 or F-1.  Anyone with these devices and the pro3z can do a brief comparison?  Many thanks!


----------



## kazsud

taz23 said:


> I was inclined to say it can be done, but I thought I should check...
> 
> I just tried using a USB adapter that removes the power signal, and that causes the pro3z to be undetectable (even when it is powered by a 5v LPS).  So the answer is you still need the 5v for the handshake.
> 
> I am very impressed with the pro3z currently, but I have not tried SU-1 or F-1.  Anyone with these devices and the pro3z can do a brief comparison?  Many thanks!


 
  
  
 I have a SU-1 that's burned in and a pro3z that doesn't seem to be burned in yet w/ an ifi ipower 5v powering it. So far there is less simbalance w/ the pro3z and a tab more bass. But the SU-1 trumps it in every other regard. 
  
 I'm sending the ipower back and getting a LPS w/ the same Talema Transfomer that the SU-1 has. Hopefully the pro3z pans out better sounding since it is the same ddc w/ 2xs the specs.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/131737843438?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## occamsrazor

mhztweaker said:


> No
> 
> Only DSD256, but.....
> It does it VERY well.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, I'm making no judgement as to the different rates, just was looking for a clear answer as to the capabilities of the SU-1.
  
 What really confuses me is the whole DoP thing with Macs that don't do native DSD. When using the SU-1 with a Mac that requires DoP, and the SU-1 connected to a DAC that can do DSD256/512... do you happen to know what would be the rate you can actually get?


----------



## MHzTweaker

occamsrazor said:


> Thanks, I'm making no judgement as to the different rates, just was looking for a clear answer as to the capabilities of the SU-1.
> 
> What really confuses me is the whole DoP thing with Macs that don't do native DSD. When using the SU-1 with a Mac that requires DoP, and the SU-1 connected to a DAC that can do DSD256/512... do you happen to know what would be the rate you can actually get?


 
  
 Here is a snippet from the Shenzhen Audio page:
  
 http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singxer-su-1-usb-digital-interface-with-xmos-xu208-cpld-dsd256-dop.html
  
 I service both PC's and Mac's in my business but honestly I do not use Macs for anything on a day to day basis
 I would cull from these specs that only DSD128 can be done in DoP mode.
  
 I personally own an SU-1 connected to a Gustard X20U DAC via  I2S (HDMI)
 I do have a MacBook Pro on a shelf I could try this out with. I have never listened to music on a Mac so I'm not sure what software is involved in playing DSD  DFF files on a Mac.
  
*Specifications:*
 Each output interface supports sampling rates:
 PCM:
 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz,
 176.4KHz, 192KHz, 352.8KHz, 384KHz
 (I2S support all sampling rate,S/PDIF support upper to 192KHz
 DSD:
 2.8 MHz (DSD64)-DoP, native
 5.6 MHz (DSD128)-DoP, native
 11.2 MHz (DSD256)-native
 (I2S output support all DSD,S/PDIF,AES/EBU support DSD64 DOP mode)

 Bits width:
 the highest 32 bit over I2S output
 The highest 24 bit over S/PDIF
 Each interface electrical standards:
 1.USB input socket is a standard USB-B type socket, USB power supply range 4.5V-5.1V;
 2.RCA connector outputs standard S/PDIF signal,electrical level is 550mV (standard connection load),the output impedance of 75 ohms.
 3.Power suppply input is AC 115V/230V,using TALEMA transformer.


----------



## mordicai

About to order an F1. How do you get 12s out of it. I don't see a 12s socket. Do you hard wire it?


----------



## Clemmaster

mordicai said:


> About to order an F1. How do you get 12s out of it. I don't see a 12s socket. Do you hard wire it?


 
 Yes.


----------



## rayofsi

is there anything about the singxer boards that would make it superior to the diyinhk one running a xu216? asides from the crystek vs the ndk in the diyinhk. Asking from a price standpoint, since it seems like i'm getting so much more with the diyinhk? I'm new to this diy, so please excuse the no0b question.


----------



## FredA

mordicai said:


> About to order an F1. How do you get 12s out of it. I don't see a 12s socket. Do you hard wire it?




The i2s signal is on the 20-pin header holes. The header itself comes loose with the board. I chose to use it instead of directly solder to the board.

I used a female header so that i can easilly get the board out, intact. I used a cat6a piece of wire, without socket. Rise time is key with having the best sound possible. With the audio-gd master-7 and feeding the f-1 with a schitt wyrd, the sound is just perfect. I also use an intona and jitterbugs downstream. It is so good that i don't need any upgrade anymore beside acoustic treatment for my room.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

I'm interested in the Singxer SU-1 and had a few questions: 
  
 1. Does anyone know if the SU-1 is compatible with the USB digital output of the Auralic Aries, Aries Mini, or Altair? The Auralic manual states that most USB DACs that don't need extra drivers on MAC OS should be compatible with Auralic's USB output.
  
 2. Does the SU-1 take a USB cable with 5v cut out? My aftermarket USB cable has the 5v pin removed and sounds great with my current AGD-DI, and prefer not to get a new USB cable.
  
 3. Anyone have the is2 pinout configuration for hdmi input of AGD Master 7?
  
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## mordicai

freda said:


> mordicai said:
> 
> 
> > About to order an F1. How do you get 12s out of it. I don't see a 12s socket. Do you hard wire it?
> ...


 
 Thanks Fred. I figured 20 holes in the board had to be for i2s, but needed to be reassured. Ordering a Gustard x20 and needed a i2s bridge without spending  $400 on a su 1. Your happy with the F1? don't regret  not getting the su1?.......Max


----------



## motberg

boynamedsue said:


> I'm interested in the Singxer SU-1 and had a few questions:
> 
> 1. Does anyone know if the SU-1 is compatible with the USB digital output of the Auralic Aries, Aries Mini, or Altair? The Auralic manual states that most USB DACs that don't need extra drivers on MAC OS should be compatible with Auralic's USB output.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi, maybe I can offer some partial input:
 Re #2) I get the feeling the SU-1 uses the USB line 5v to power the input half of the board. I have not confirmed this (and am not an EE) but from memory when looking at the photos it seems there is no visible wire linked from the internal PS to the input half of the board. I may be able to test this for you at a later date if you cannot get a qualified answer.
 Re #3) I have a Master 7 and SU-1... the SU-1 switch selection as from the factory worked out of the box with the M7 with no evident phase or channel switching problems. I can confirm the exact positions over the weekend if you like (I think they are all in the bottom position... but not sure and am on the road currently..).


----------



## FredA

mordicai said:


> Thanks Fred. I figured 20 holes in the board had to be for i2s, but needed to be reassured. Ordering a Gustard x20 and needed a i2s bridge without spending  $400 on a su 1. Your happy with the F1? don't regret  not getting the su1?.......Max




Hi Max.

The key is the short cable. With it, rj45 is in principle better than hdmi i2s. See my previous post to see the actual configuration with the rj45 cable directly out from the aluminum case. Therefore i prefered an rj45 out, so i bought the f-1. I already had the wyrd with its ultra-clean 5v usb power, I got the f-1 for well below 200 usd on ebay. And the case and the rest of the material for less than 20. 

If you start from nothing, the su-1 is a good solution, but still more expensive. I can't regret my purchase. Using the rca spdif out for a while, i found the bass to be exagerated. But with the i2s out, i got a perfect balance, more defintion and a soundstage that is better than i have ever experienced in my room. It is a known fact however that my dac sounds better through i2s. If you buy a dac that support i2s directly, meaning without reclocking it, this should sound excellent, unless there is a very bad impedance match. You have to know about how good this input sounds on the Gustard. 

If you happen to try i2s, you should know that you should always turn both the dac and and ddc off before hooking the ddc up, at least that is what audio-gd recommends to avoid damages. 

The f-1 needs 100 hours before sounding very good, and maybe 200 more to reach its full potential. I think it is a very high-quality device, built quality is great. Highly recommended.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

motberg said:


> Hi, maybe I can offer some partial input:
> Re #2) I get the feeling the SU-1 uses the USB line 5v to power the input half of the board. I have not confirmed this (and am not an EE) but from memory when looking at the photos it seems there is no visible wire linked from the internal PS to the input half of the board. I may be able to test this for you at a later date if you cannot get a qualified answer.
> Re #3) I have a Master 7 and SU-1... the SU-1 switch selection as from the factory worked out of the box with the M7 with no evident phase or channel switching problems. I can confirm the exact positions over the weekend if you like (I think they are all in the bottom position... but not sure and am on the road currently..).


 
  
 Thank you for the help! I'm glad that the is2 works properly with the master 7.


----------



## kazsud

ufokillerz said:


> is there anything about the singxer boards that would make it superior to the diyinhk one running a xu216? asides from the crystek vs the ndk in the diyinhk. Asking from a price standpoint, since it seems like i'm getting so much more with the diyinhk? I'm new to this diy, so please excuse the no0b question.


 
  
  
 +1


----------



## bButcher

This is a brief report on answering the question: "In F-1, can replace ADP150 for the femto XO with LT3042 do any improvement?"
  
 Last week, I received the LT3042 modules delivered from China. Quite disappointed on first inspection, not only the layout pretty much violates every LT's recommendations, the board is 2 layers, and the worst part: LT3042 isn't even soldered to the thermal pad. Since the main purpose I bought it is for quick concept proving, so still give it a try.
  
 The original board is AC input, 5V LT3042 output with current boost transistor, and LT1764 as pre-regulator. So I first modify it to DC/battery input, 3.3V LT3042 output and pre-regulator adjusted to 5V, also current boost transistor is removed since the XO only consume 14mA. The modified board's 3.3V is connected to F-1's femto XO (with ADP150 removed), and 5V is used to drive CPLD's ldo (already modified to ADP150). The whole module is powered by 2 Li-on battery.
  
 After a whole day's listening, I just couldn't identify any difference. Not better, not worse. O.K. it may be because of the poorly made LT3042 module, or maybe I already hit the limit of my current system configuration. Since upgrading power of my DAC's (audio-gd NOS11) digital section is on my to-do list for a long time. I decided to promote its priority and upgrade only the critical path for a quick verification - channel selection and DSP chip, the two components between F-1's I2S output and PCM1704 chips. I isolated the two components and use ADP150 to clean up their power input. Boy! I wish I've done this long time ago, the sense of space, depth of soundstage, instrument separation, and focus are all improved a lot, and the sometimes criticized bass sloppiness is gone.
  
 Now with a newly upgraded DAC, can LT3042 give any advantage over ADP150? The answer is yes. After two days' comparison --- it need de-soldering/soldering to switch power, the improvement is definite there, although subtle. The most welcome one is improved sense of the body of instruments, the micro-detail, and more life like performance.


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> This is a brief report on answering the question: "In F-1, can replace ADP150 for the femto XO with LT3042 do any improvement?"
> 
> Last week, I received the LT3042 modules delivered from China. Quite disappointed on first inspection, not only the layout pretty much violates every LT's recommendations, the board is 2 layers, and the worst part: LT3042 isn't even soldered to the thermal pad. Since the main purpose I bought it is for quick concept proving, so still give it a try.
> 
> ...


Pictures? What's your power chain feeding the F-1? Maybe a high quality LPS would make the on board LDO less important.

Digikey for top quality


----------



## Yviena

bbutcher said:


> This is a brief report on answering the question: "In F-1, can replace ADP150 for the femto XO with LT3042 do any improvement?"
> 
> Last week, I received the LT3042 modules delivered from China. Quite disappointed on first inspection, not only the layout pretty much violates every LT's recommendations, the board is 2 layers, and the worst part: LT3042 isn't even soldered to the thermal pad. Since the main purpose I bought it is for quick concept proving, so still give it a try.
> 
> ...




The adm7150/7151 could actually be a better choice as it has a higher PSRR ratio.


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> Pictures? What's your power chain feeding the F-1? Maybe a high quality LPS would make the on board LDO less important.
> 
> Digikey for top quality


 
 I bought 2 modules, one modified to power the clean section, the other unmodified one power the F-1's dirty section (replace the USB +5V).
 After testing I found no difference so decide to simplify the configuration and use my Dell computer USB power directly. The result comes at no surprise to me, since I already replace the ldo powering XMOS with a adp150 too from earlier mod. As to why last stage ldo's noise performance is more important than its feeding power, please refer to my other post - "http://www.head-fi.org/t/806397/audio-gd-new-nos-7-2016-edition-impression-thread/153" regarding to how to calculate output noise.
  
 Picture of the unmodified module

  
 Picture of modified one and the connection to F-1

  
 The components are genuine, just the circuit board design and workmanship are terrible.
 But since this is only a quick concept proving project, I will stick to my original plan to layout and build my own module in the future. I already have 5 LT3042s sitting on my desk for over one month.


----------



## bButcher

yviena said:


> The adm7150/7151 could actually be a better choice as it has a higher PSRR ratio.


 
 Yes, I have studied that too, actually my alternative candidate is adm7154 -- which belong to the same family. Yes it has >120db psrr @ 1k, but if you consider the load - about 15mA, the difference is not that much. Also lt3042 have better 60/120 Hz psrr, that's an advantage if powered from AC source. The other merits of lt3042 are (1) its input range is 1.8~20V (2) reverse input protection. But for this project, i figure either one will do.


----------



## lazz

HI guys. I have a Nad M51 and purchased a Singxer SU-1 on the way. I'm wondering about the switches that are talked about on the Singxer, what orientation would they need to be for the Nad. Thx.


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> I bought 2 modules, one modified to power the clean section, the other unmodified one power the F-1's dirty section (replace the USB +5V).
> After testing I found no difference so decide to simplify the configuration and use my Dell computer USB power directly. The result comes at no surprise to me, since I already replace the ldo powering XMOS with a adp150 too from earlier mod. As to why last stage ldo's noise performance is more important than its feeding power, please refer to my other post - "http://www.head-fi.org/t/806397/audio-gd-new-nos-7-2016-edition-impression-thread/153" regarding to how to calculate output noise.
> 
> Picture of the unmodified module
> ...


 

 Thanks for the pictures.  But I don't really see the benefit of these mods - if one is using a decent LPS and maybe some additional DC filtering (iFi DC iPur) and a W4S Recovery.
  
 So this is my power chain, after AC line filtering - TeraDak DC-30W>iFi DC iPurifier>W4S Recovery>iFi iPurifier2>F-1
 The noise is less then 1uv to the F-1, don't see how that can be made any lower.  Just the DC-30W and DC iPurifier takes the DC noise down to less the 5uv.
  
 I use a modded JB that completely severs the PC USB +5VDC VBUS power - so absolutely no PC USB power can make it's way to the F-1, also use a 2G split USB - running only the data leg.


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> The noise is less then 1uv to the F-1, don't see how that can be made any lower.  Just the DC-30W and DC iPurifier takes the DC noise down to less the 5uv.


 
  
 Every LDO have two important specs related to output noise: Output RMS Noise (Output Noise Spectral Density) & PSRR (Power Supply Rejection Ratio or Ripple Rejection); PSRR determines
 how much noise will appear at its output due to noise from its input; Output RMS Noise specifies its own generated noise, usually the biggest noise source inside a LDO is its reference voltage circuit. So even you provide an ideal 0Vrms source to F-1, its on board 4 LDOs, 1 SMPS still will generate their respective rated noise.
  
 On F-1's XMOS (dirty, before isolation) section:
     1.0V LDO - drive XMOS core; 85 ~ 90 mA
     3.3V LDO - dirve XMOS peripheral & isolation chips; 20 ~ 25 mA; generic LDO, usually noise spec. range from 50uVrms ~ several hundred uVrms
  
 On F-1' CPLD/XO (clean, after isolation) section:
     3.3V LDO - drive XO; 14 mA --- ADP150: 9uVrms noise, PSRR > 60dB
     3.3V LDO - drive CPLD & isolation chips; 30mA; same generic LDO as on XMOS section.
     5V SMPS - drive the two LDOs; 75mVpp noise (100mVpp max)
  
 So for an unmodified F-1 board, let's calculate the voltage noise feeding the femto XOs.
  
 Assume the isolation is perfect, so 5V SMPS's PSRR approach infinity, and its total output noise will be sqrt[(75mV)^2 + (0 x Vn)^] =  75mVpp = 75/5.7 mVrms = 13.158 mVrms
 And the output noise from ADP150 will be = sqrt[9^2 + (13158/1000)^2] = 15.94uVrms
  
 So about *16uVrms* is the best you can get for an unmodified F-1 irregarding to how good you power the F-1 externally. (vs. *9uVrms* for SU-1, see reference)
  
 After my first mod - the 5V SMPS replaced by battery and all 3.3V LDOs changed to ADP150s, the XO's feeding voltage noise is lowered to around 9Vrms.
  
 Now the newest mod is try to further lower its noise to 1uVrms, and see what the impact it has sonics wise.
  
 The following is a repost for reference:
  
 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 First a little background about LDO's total output noise: a simple estimation is as followed,

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Vout_total = sqrt[ Vout_n^2 + (Vin_n * PSRR)^2 ]
 Vout_n:  LDO's output noise (9 uVrms @ 10Hz ~ 100kHz; ADP150)
 Vin_n:    LDO's input source's noise
 PSRR:   LDO's power supply rejection ratio or ripple rejection (55 ~ 70 dB @ 10Hz ~ 100kHz; ADP150)
  
 (Note: only estimation, in practical integration over the whole bandwidth is required; also coupled noise from other sources must be taken into consideration too)
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
 Take SU-1 as example: it use LM2940 as 5V LDO (54 ~ 72 dB @ 120Hz; output noise = 150 uVrms). Let say its input have 10 mVrms rippe/noise and assume LM2940's average PSRR ~= 60 dB or = 1/1000.
  
 V5v_total = sqrt[ 150u^2 + (10m / 1000)^2 ] ~= 150.33 uVrms
 Now look at 3.3V stage, let's also assume average PSRR ~= 60 dB (1/1000)
 V3v3_total = sqrt[ 9u^2 + (150.33u / 1000)^2 ] ~= 9.0013 uVrms    ---- 5V from LM2940
 V3v3_total = sqrt[ 9u^2 + (0u / 1000)^2 ] = 9 uVrms                      ---- ideal 5V source

 Now you can see an only decent LM2940 (150 uVrms) will result to almost identical last stage noise level as a 0 uVrms ideal source. That's why Singxer choose LM2940 (more cost effective).
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


rb2013 said:


> .. also use a 2G split USB - running only the data leg.


 
 Thanks for the suggestion, it's on my to-do list; only I plan to build one myself.
  
 Many thanks for your pointing to this wonderful device, so I can advance my whole setup to current state with minimal expense.


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> Every LDO have two important specs related to output noise: Output RMS Noise (Output Noise Spectral Density) & PSRR (Power Supply Rejection Ratio or Ripple Rejection); PSRR determines
> how much noise will appear at its output due to noise from its input; Output RMS Noise specifies its own generated noise, usually the biggest noise source inside a LDO is its reference voltage circuit. So even you provide an ideal 0Vrms source to F-1, its on board 4 LDOs, 1 SMPS still will generate their respective rated noise.
> 
> On F-1's XMOS (dirty, before isolation) section:
> ...


 

 Great info - many thanks.  A knowledgeable poster like you adds much valuable information to this thread.  You shine a spotlight on some very interesting design elements.
  
 I should add that I have done a bit to reduce AC line noise  - this is my AC chain: SR Teslaplex wall socket>Audience aRp1>Art Audio PB4X4Pro (separate ones for DDC, DAC and PC).  The aRp1 acts as an AC filter and balancer, the PB4X4PRO AC filter and isolation - using both common and differiant discrete designs.  They provide 40dB of AC line noise attenuation at high frequencies.
  
 The LPS TeraDak DC-30W has been modded to replace the SU Pannie and gray generics with high PSRR Nichicon HW caps - then the DC output is further filtered by a iFi DC iPurifier (approx 316X to 100,00X noise reduction), this then feeds a W4S Recovery - with it's own ultra low noise (1uv) regulators, this is further filtered by a iFi iPur2 (1uv).  This is what feeds the F-1.  So I'm assuming that the noise coming into the F-1 is near zero.  The SU-1 has no option of providing a better DC power chain without mods.  So although it may have lower noise on a theortical level then the F-1, in a real world situation with high noise coming in, it may all add up to be the same in comparison to a well fed F-1.
  
 So 16uv total noise with the stock components is not bad.  When I compared a DIYinHK Pro3a with it's 1uv LDO's and NDK SD clocks - I found the stock F-1 (without the uber power chain), better sounding.  I know some folks who have compared the new Pro3z, also with 1uv LDOs and have preferred the F-1.  In fact there is one for sale in the classifieds.
 So noise at these low levels may not be a big factor in SQ.  Although I have to say with each gizmo I added to the F-1's power chain, it did make a difference in SQ, some minor some not as much.  Adding the LPS with Nichicon caps and the Recovery were probably the biggest, the iPur2 next, then the DC iPur.
  
 A couple of questions though - what kind of noise does a Murata DA102 generate on the SPDIF vs the F-1's CPLD?  For you battery PS - many Li-ion battery have high noise, much higher then a well designed LPS, some expensive ones are lower.  Which battery are you using?  Have you measured it's noise?
  
 Thanks again for the great info.
  
 Cheers


----------



## RickyV

bbutcher said:


> Every LDO have two important specs related to output noise: Output RMS Noise (Output Noise Spectral Density) & PSRR (Power Supply Rejection Ratio or Ripple Rejection); PSRR determines
> how much noise will appear at its output due to noise from its input; Output RMS Noise specifies its own generated noise, usually the biggest noise source inside a LDO is its reference voltage circuit. So even you provide an ideal 0Vrms source to F-1, its on board 4 LDOs, 1 SMPS still will generate their respective rated noise.
> 
> On F-1's XMOS (dirty, before isolation) section:
> ...






Hi bButcher,

Really great info, thanks a lot. I am following your lead, getting the last ldo this weekend. Any suggestion on the 1V LDO ? Driving the Xmos core sounds important enough. And where is that LDO hiding.


----------



## bimmer100

According to Leter @singxer he says they already are using adp150's for the clocks in the f1. And he says... And other Ldo's..
But he confirmed the clocks are definitely adp150 regulated.


----------



## RickyV

bimmer100 said:


> According to Leter @singxer he says they already are using adp150's for the clocks in the f1. And he says... And other Ldo's..
> But he confirmed the clocks are definitely adp150 regulated.





And they are right, HA HA lol. Look at post 3436, from bButcher.


----------



## bimmer100

Ok, my mistake, I thought I read someone was actually removing the Ldo's and replacing them with adp150's. I wondered why.  
Carry on with the DIY stuff.  
Just wanted to mention if there was some confusion. I seem to be the one confused


----------



## RickyV

HA HA HA, and we are removing LDO's just not the clock ldo. We are repleasing the Xmos LDO on the dirty side and the cpld, iso chips LDO on clean side.


----------



## RickyV

Hi bButcher,

I am on a roll tonight. Are better capacitors before and after the LDO's an idea? Maybe parallel to the existing ones or repaceing them?


----------



## lazz

Just wondering , can The Icron Lan extender be connected to my pc by Rj45 then usb out to the Singxer SU-1.  And if so what it be any sound benefit as opposed to connecting the Singxer direct to pc via usb. Thx


----------



## bButcher

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I should add that I have done a bit to reduce AC line noise  - this is my AC chain: SR Teslaplex wall socket>Audience aRp1>Art Audio PB4X4Pro (separate ones for DDC, DAC and PC).  The aRp1 acts as an AC filter and balancer, the PB4X4PRO AC filter and isolation - using both common and differiant discrete designs.  They provide 40dB of AC line noise attenuation at high frequencies.


 
 Thanks for the information, AC power conditioning is my next focus considering I'm currently living in a big city, the line power just not in the premium condition.
  


> So 16uv total noise with the stock components is not bad.  When I compared a DIYinHK Pro3a with it's 1uv LDO's and NDK SD clocks - I found the stock F-1 (without the uber power chain), better sounding.  I know some folks who have compared the new Pro3z, also with 1uv LDOs and have preferred the F-1.  In fact there is one for sale in the classifieds. So noise at these low levels may not be a big factor in SQ.  Although I have to say with each gizmo I added to the F-1's power chain, it did make a difference in SQ, some minor some not as much.  Adding the LPS with Nichicon caps and the Recovery were probably the biggest, the iPur2 next, then the DC iPur.
> 
> A couple of questions though - what kind of noise does a Murata DA102 generate on the SPDIF vs the F-1's CPLD?  For you battery PS - many Li-ion battery have high noise, much higher then a well designed LPS, some expensive ones are lower.  Which battery are you using?  Have you measured it's noise?


 
  
 The previous analysis only focus on the voltage noise feeding to the XOs; On the other hand, XMOS's 3.3V power noise do affect its output I2S signals' jitter performance. If cpld's "Digital PLL" has limited correction capability, then the final result will somehow also depend on USB 5V's quality as you have experienced in your setup.
  
  
 I don't own a Pro3a or Pro3z, so can only guess. Assume Pro3z follows XMOS's standard design, so Murata DA102 serves as isolation transformer to couple USB's D+, D- differential signals to XMOS, Pro3z also provide external DC in, so this two features together should provide the necessary blockage again all noise from computer's side. The problem is all components generate noise, even a humble resistor will generate thermal noise according to sqrt[4KBRT]. Not all components will put noise figures on their spec sheet, you can only measure it or estimate from their complexity and power consumption. In F-1, XMOS consume around 100mA, CPLD consume around 18mA; complexity wise one is uC one is only a cpld. So it is safe to say relatively XMOS generate a lot more noise than CPLD. This is the core concept of Singxer's design: to isolate noisy XMOS together with any noise coupled from computer from the femto clocks --- in any clock design voltage noise is the single biggest enemy; when XMOS's generated I2S signals pass through ISO7641, they will be further distorted; so the CPLD is there to restore I2S signal's jitter performance using the original femto clock signal. Compared to XMOS, Murata's generated noise can just be ignored; it will generate EM field, but I assume the board layout already consider this so no component or line is near enough to pickup the signal.
 So the bottom line is: architecture wise I'll give the nod to Singxer; As to if XMOS 218, 1uV power, 6 layers circuit board will give Pro3Z any chance to fight back. I guess we can only judge after more comparisons are available.
  
 I use sanyo (now panasonic) Li-ion 18650 batteries, I didn't measured them. From past experience common Li-ion battery has 1 order bigger noise performance than Sanyo's Eneloop AA battery.
 eneloop's noise figure can be estimated from this paper: "Noise Measurements On Chemical Batteries" --- http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/NoiseMeasurementsOnChemicalBatteries.pdf. From the figure, it's around 1 or 2 uVrms. So this will make my current 18650 battery's rms noise around 10~20uV. Not very good compared to state of art LDOs. But considering LT3042's PSRR > 80db @10 ~ 1M and LT1764's PSRR = 20~60db @10 ~ 1M, together at worst case still provide > 100db PSRR or 1/100000 scale factor. So 20uV/100000 = 0.2nVrms at LT3042's output, just disappear in the thin air.


----------



## bButcher

rickyv said:


> Really great info, thanks a lot. I am following your lead, getting the last ldo this weekend. Any suggestion on the 1V LDO ? Driving the Xmos core sounds important enough. And where is that LDO hiding.


 
 1V is for internal computation, original LDO should be good enough. Noise spread out is via its peripheral pins which is powered by 3.3V LDO.
 It's 6 pin component labeled "ADJG", the opposite side of the 3.3V LDO.


rickyv said:


> Are better capacitors before and after the LDO's an idea? Maybe parallel to the existing ones or repaceing them?


 
 They should be 1uF cap as used for most 3.3V ldo, also suggested on ADP150's data sheet. If you are against ceramic cap for pizeo effect, you certainly can replace them with metal film ones, ex. Wima's. But I'm afraid the size will be too big to be nicely mounted on the boards. You can refer to data sheet's Application information, capacitor selection section for more detail. There are already 2x100uF cap on the input side (5V) and 1x100uF cap on cpld's 3.3V side, so you don't need to add any more caps. On XMOS's 3.3V front: Yes, additional output capacitor will help on "Load Transient Response", but in this case the load is relatively constant so it won't help much.


----------



## motberg

chauphuong said:


> Would love to hear feedback on its combination with wyrd4s recovery which i am thinking of buying one. Tks


 

 Hi, I now have 200+ hours on the SU-1 and just today removed the Recovery for a quick comparative listen.
 My perspective, given this short comparative evaluation (Genesis Foxtrot, using JPlay mini in hibernate mode), is that the Recovery allows more separation of the elements within the sound-stage, removes some grain, and helps anchor the elements in their respective places.
 This was not night and day however, for sure less than a 10% gain, but I think it would be a good upgrade to consider given the cost - (especially if you happen to have a suitable PS already available).
 My recovery is powered by one of the better TeraDak LPS models with a ifi DC iPurifier using short PPA USB cables (following an Intona industrial).


----------



## Miracle1980

Does the Singxer-SU 1 reclock the usb signal coming from the pc? 
I mean... Is it similar to what the Mutec is doing or it's just converting the signal? 

Thanks


----------



## rb2013

lazz said:


> Just wondering , can The Icron Lan extender be connected to my pc by Rj45 then usb out to the Singxer SU-1.  And if so what it be any sound benefit as opposed to connecting the Singxer direct to pc via usb. Thx


 

 Yes - the ICRON/Startech GB LAN USB extender will then provide galvanic isolation between the SU-1 and the PC USB.  I found the SQ improvement with the F-1 pretty amazing. 
  
 But since I'm moving to AOIP I have my Startech for sale on the classifieds.


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> Thanks for the information, AC power conditioning is my next focus considering I'm currently living in a big city, the line power just not in the premium condition.


 
 As always great information - Thanks!
  
 Today with every house loaded with motors (refrig, washer, dryer, etc) and SMPS by the boat loads (I have 4 non-music server PCs running at any given time)- even with in a single home the AC lines can be a noise feast. 
  
 As the old saying goes GIGO.
  


> The previous analysis only focus on the voltage noise feeding to the XOs; On the other hand, XMOS's 3.3V power noise do affect its output I2S signals' jitter performance. If cpld's "Digital PLL" has limited correction capability, then the final result will somehow also depend on USB 5V's quality as you have experienced in your setup.
> 
> 
> I don't own a Pro3a or Pro3z, so can only guess. Assume Pro3z follows XMOS's standard design, so Murata DA102 serves as isolation transformer to couple USB's D+, D- differential signals to XMOS, Pro3z also provide external DC in, so this two features together should provide the necessary blockage again all noise from computer's side. The problem is all components generate noise, even a humble resistor will generate thermal noise according to sqrt[4KBRT].


 
 I thought the Murata only served to decouple or GI the SPDIF output from the reciever unit, not the XMOS?
 See the design of the Gustard for example with Pulse right next to each of the AES and SPDIF

  
 Melodious MX-U8 - using the Murata's


  With the Tanly, Hydra Z and F-1 using FPGA to do this with lower noise?
  
 Note the lack of Murta or Pulse on any of these at the AES or SPDIF outputs:
  
 Tanly

  
 Hydra Z:

  
  
 Steve Nugent at Empirical even offers a transformless version of his OR5:


> *OTL option (Output TransformerLess)*
> This option affects the S/PDIF output only. The OTL option reduces jitter at least 50% from the standard Off-Ramp 5 by removing the transformer for the S/PDIF output and changing some associated circuitry. If you have a DAC that already has a transformer on the S/PDIF input (galvanically isolated from ground), then this is an attractive option for you. It is unneccesary to have 2 transformers in series and one at the DAC input is more optimal than one at the Off-Ramp 5.


 
 http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/off-ramp-converter


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> Not all components will put noise figures on their spec sheet, you can only measure it or estimate from their complexity and power consumption. In F-1, XMOS consume around 100mA, CPLD consume around 18mA; complexity wise one is uC one is only a cpld. So it is safe to say relatively XMOS generate a lot more noise than CPLD. This is the core concept of Singxer's design: to isolate noisy XMOS together with any noise coupled from computer from the femto clocks --- in any clock design voltage noise is the single biggest enemy; when XMOS's generated I2S signals pass through ISO7641, they will be further distorted; so the CPLD is there to restore I2S signal's jitter performance using the original femto clock signal. Compared to XMOS, Murata's generated noise can just be ignored; it will generate EM field, but I assume the board layout already consider this so no component or line is near enough to pickup the signal. So the bottom line is: architecture wise I'll give the nod to Singxer; As to if XMOS 218, 1uV power, 6 layers circuit board will give Pro3Z any chance to fight back. I guess we can only judge after more comparisons are available.


 
 Yes it appears these Femto clocks are very sensitive to DC power and ground plane noise.
  
 Another factor to consider is the 'Packet' noise generated by the AGC on the USB receiver as Uptone's John Swenson points out.  This is very hard to filter with a LDO or transfomer - the best that can be done is to provide the highest SI as possible to min the AGC circuit activation.  Exact impedence matching on the USB lines is critical to improving the SI and min the 8K USB packet jitter.  This is what the Regen and Recovery attempt to do.  That and reclock the USB stream (the Recovery using Crystek CCHD ultra low noise clock), additionally provide another layer of +5VDC noise regulation.  This is why the Regen needs 7-8 VDC and the recovery 9VDC. 
  
 John Swenson from Uptone:
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits#AeyuspzfoASXSTMm.97


> Every USB receiver chip has at least one if not more PLLs. These PLLs are affected by both the previous types of jitter and since almost all the circuitry inside the chip is clocked by these PLLs, the jitter on output signals and ground plane noise is going to be significantly affected by the noise spectrum coming out of the PLLs. This is filtered by the PLL loop filter, but there are still major components related to the input jitter.​ So how do we keep all this noise from the USB receiver from getting to our sensitive DAC circuits? It’s called ground plane isolation. You have separate ground planes for the USB receiver and the rest of the DAC circuitry. This DOES prevent ground plane noise from crossing over. BUT if you cut the ground plane there is no way for the return current from the signals crossing the boundary (the I2S signals and clock etc) to get between the “ground domains”. The solution is digital isolators. There are many different technologies to choose from, one most people are familiar with is opto-couplers. Some of these actually add huge amounts of jitter to the signals going through them so are bad choices for our purposes.​


 
   
 http://uptoneaudio.com/pages/j-swenson-tech-corner
 Quote:


> When that XMOS chip is dealing with data from the host it is generating its own noise on the PG planes, part of the noise will be from the PHY and part from the MAC. The PHY part can change due to SI of the USB signal, the rest cannot, it stays the same. If separate ground planes and separate power supplies are not used, that noise can directly affect the DAC chip(s) and the master clock oscillator. As was posted from a previous post of mine, even if separate supplies and planes are used with isolation between them, the effects of this noise still winds up at the DAC chip and clock.
> 
> The part of this noise not from the PHY is always there, it doesn't matter what your cable is, what USB card you have, whether you have a REGEN etc, it's still there. All that stuff is keeping the PHY part from ADDING extra noise that makes things worse.
> 
> ...


 
   
 On the USB power output of the Regen
 Quote:


> The REGEN has two expensive, ultra-low noise adjustable voltage regulators (the wonderful TI TPS7A4700), one for 3.3V for the USB hub chip, and one for 5V for forwarding clean VBUS to the DAC for those that require it.
> Linear regulators require that the input voltage be a little higher than the voltage you want them to regulate to.  But the difference between whatever voltage level you feed then and the output voltage they are set for must be dissipated as heat.  The REGEN is in a small enclosure and there is not a heat-sink on the regulators—therefore we must consider that. So although the regulator chips we use can take up to 20V, the drops down to 5V or 3.3V are quite large.  For the 3.3V to run the hub chip and low jitter clock, it really is not a problem no matter the voltage since that part of the REGEN draws almost no current.


 
  
  
 One reason I prefer the F-1 is the ability to filter the power with these external devices - versus just being left with SU-1 design.  GIGO


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> I use sanyo (now panasonic) Li-ion 18650 batteries, I didn't measured them. From past experience common Li-ion battery has 1 order bigger noise performance than Sanyo's Eneloop AA battery.
> eneloop's noise figure can be estimated from this paper: "Noise Measurements On Chemical Batteries" --- http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/NoiseMeasurementsOnChemicalBatteries.pdf. From the figure, it's around 1 or 2 uVrms. So this will make my current 18650 battery's rms noise around 10~20uV. Not very good compared to state of art LDOs. But considering LT3042's PSRR > 80db @10 ~ 1M and LT1764's PSRR = 20~60db @10 ~ 1M, together at worst case still provide > 100db PSRR or 1/100000 scale factor. So 20uV/100000 = 0.2nVrms at LT3042's output, just disappear in the thin air.


 
 I agree a well designed LPS will provide less noise to the regulators
  
 So if you have a LT3042 filtering 10-20uv of noise say at 80db@10 versus a LPS providing 1uv of noise with the ADP150 filtering 70db@10 - wouldn't these be roughly equal?
  
 With 80db to 90db (the stock LDOs) total filtering on a 1uv noise - I agree the would be just about disappearing.
  
 But the issue of USB nongalvanic isolation would still be there - as would the issue of min the USB XMOS AGC packet noise.
  
 Many factors at play here - not as simple as LDO noise.


----------



## rayofsi

mhztweaker said:


> It may be tomorrow before I get a chance to connect everything.
> 
> The USB cable that came with my SU-1 appears to be identical to this one:
> https://www.amazon.com/Shengwei-Cable-Type-Printer-Scanner/dp/B01FZ34D72/ref=pd_day0_147_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=10SNRK3720YVCN2SE1J3
> ...


 
  
 I got a few of these from the seller today. Very good quality cables for sure. The bumps do appear to be ferrites. just in time for me to transition out of usb cables hah.


----------



## drkingweeb

can the f-1 be wired to output i2s via hdmi cable to a w4s dac2 dsdse? if so, could i use a cut hdmi cable soldered to the pcb?
 thanks,
 drmike
 i am using an amb sigma 11 ps  it sounds great.


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> I thought the Murata only served to decouple or GI the SPDIF output from the reciever unit, not the XMOS?


 
 Yes, the original target market is GI SPDIF interface as specified in its spec. "Suitable for both 75 & 110Ω circuits".
 But since fundamentally it's a 1:1 ratio transformer, it can also be used to couple USB's data signal which has 90Ω impedance as in the case of Pro3Z.
  
 From XMOS 208's doc:
  
 12.2 USB signal routing and placement
  
 The USB_DP and USB_DN lines are the positive and negative data polarities of a high
 speed USB signal respectively. Their high-speed differential nature implies that they
 must be coupled and properly isolated. The board design must ensure that the
 board traces for USB_DP and USB_DN are tightly matched. In addition, according to
 the USB 2.0 specification, the USB_DP and USB_DN differential impedance must be
 90 Ω."


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> Yes, the original target market is GI SPDIF interface as specified in its spec. "Suitable for both 75 & 110Ω circuits".
> But since fundamentally it's a 1:1 ratio transformer, it can also be used to couple USB's data signal which has 90Ω impedance as in the case of Pro3Z.
> 
> From XMOS 208's doc:
> ...


So the Murata on the Pro3a/z board is for USB isolation, not the SPDIF coax output? So does this provide GI on the USB ground from the PC? Interesting in the F-1 and SU-1 design the use of the Xilinx fpga instead.


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> Another factor to consider is the 'Packet' noise generated by the AGC on the USB receiver as Uptone's John Swenson points out.  This is very hard to filter with a LDO or transfomer - the best that can be done is to provide the highest SI as possible to min the AGC circuit activation.  Exact impedence matching on the USB lines is critical to improving the SI and min the 8K USB packet jitter.  This is what the Regen and Recovery attempt to do.  That and reclock the USB stream (the Recovery using Crystek CCHD ultra low noise clock), additionally provide another layer of +5VDC noise regulation.  This is why the Regen needs 7-8 VDC and the recovery 9VDC.
> 
> John Swenson from Uptone:
> http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits#AeyuspzfoASXSTMm.97


 
 Great info, thanks.
  
 I agree Regen and recovery are one approach to take care of SI & packet noise; From engineering point of view, lets see if we can take care of this same issue without additional external devices. The usual practice of short and good quality usb cable should apply first. The major advance of XMOS's 208/216 over its previous gen. are their more powerful cores, such that more advanced DSP algorithm can be implemented to correctly decode USB packets for lesser SI signal. Although I do hope every DDC provide a led indicate packet error conditions; ex. red for over 5 packet errors/min, green for 0 and yellow for between.  So the only left issue is the packet noise, XMOS do provide pin such that you can power USB's analogue circuit separately; Singxer connect it to same I/O power which drive the I2S signals. If an additional LDO can confine the noise such that it won't influence the I2S signals, maybe Singxer should consider it and include it in their next release.


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> So the Murata on the Pro3a/z board is for USB isolation, not the SPDIF coax output? So does this provide GI on the USB ground from the PC? Interesting in the F-1 and SU-1 design the use of the Xilinx fpga instead.


 
 That's just my guess without actually inspecting one. After examine F-1's USB input, only ESD protection is implemented, so I guess Pro3Z should has similar implementation.
 Sorry, my bad. So Murata should be used for SPDIF output.
 In this case, Murata won't introduce additional noise. On the other hand, cpld do introduce jitter to the clocks.
 Sorry this possibility kind of slip off my mind, since I use I2S signals directly.


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> So if you have a LT3042 filtering 10-20uv of noise say at 80db@10 versus a LPS providing 1uv of noise with the ADP150 filtering 70db@10 - wouldn't these be roughly equal?
> 
> With 80db to 90db (the stock LDOs) total filtering on a 1uv noise - I agree the would be just about disappearing.
> 
> ...


 
 LT3042: sqrt[0.8^2 + (20/10000)^2] ~= 0.8uV
 ADP150: sqrt[9^2 + (1/3162)^2] ~= 9uV, if you remove B0505S and power the clean section with 1uV LPS, otherwise 1uV +5V power will be blocked by B0505S and replaced with its generated 75mVpp noise and the final result will be 16uV.
  
  
 Yes, lot factors will influence the final results, my approach is taking care one at a time, hopefully the major one first.
  
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I draw the following simplified F-1 block diagram, hopefully it will make things a little bit clearer.

 F-1 Signal sequence:
 (A) XMOS decode USB signals
 (B) XMOS signal CPLD which XO to enable
 (C) CPLD route selected clock (mclk) to XMOS
 (D) XMOS generate I2S signals using mclk and decoded channel data from USB
 (E) CPLD de-jitter I2S signals from XMOS with help from original mclk signal
  
 Note: (1) USB 5V or external supplied 5V are used to power 1V LDO, 3.3V LDO & B0505S on the dirty section, it will never reach the clean section. B0505S regenerate the needed 5V power for the clean section. (2) Jitter performance of XMOS generated I2S signals (D) will be influenced by all the common factors (power noise, package noise, etc.) - same as any other ddc. (3) CPLD isn't capable of 100% de-jitter the incoming I2S signals (D), so final stage I2S signals (E) still will somehow depend on signal/power condition before USB.


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> LT3042: sqrt[0.8^2 + (20/10000)^2] ~= 0.8uV
> ADP150: sqrt[9^2 + (1/3162)^2] ~= 9uV, if you remove B0505S and power the clean section with 1uV LPS, otherwise 1uV +5V power will be blocked by B0505S and replaced with its generated 75mVpp noise and the final result will be 16uV.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Excellent info - thanks!
  
 So it appears that the Singxer design has inherent flaws as opposed to the Pro3a/z design or that of the Hydra Z.  That by using the B0505S as a DC power device - no matter how clean of a DC power you feed the F-1 you are still left with 16uv of noise to the audio clocks.
  
 So from what you have explained the F-1 does not have any isolation on the SPDIF output?
  
 Does the SU-1 use the B0505S - it doesn't appear on the main board - but this could be it on the PS board.  Hard to tell from the picture:

  
  
 This is the Pro3a board. I still believe the Murata is for the SPDIF isolation, not USB. 
 From DIYinHK website:


> 3) Ultra low phase noise NDK NZ2520SD oscillator, thin film resistor and Murata isolated transformer (Be care the very common China made Pulse transformer in many 192khz SPDIF equipment is only capable of maximum 7Mbps(i.e. 96khz) according to the official datasheet.) Components are sourced from NDK and digikey directly (guarantee no fake product from China)


 
  
  
 But with it's direct ext DC input and no 'dirty' vs 'clean' isolation scheme - it appears to have the ability of achieving lower noise to the audio clocks without modification.  Coupled with it's on board ultra low noise 1uv linear power regulator (versus the 9uv ADP150) - it should be better.  I have not seen a photo of the Pro3z board - but should be close to the same (from the DIYinHK description of the two), just with a XU216 vs the U8 XMOS.  May have to give that one a try.
  

  
  
 On another note - looking at your photo - did you remove the 24.576Mhz Crystek clock?  How will it generate the 44.1K, 88.2K, 176.4K audio freq?  Or are you just ignoring those SR's?


----------



## rb2013

Back awhile ago OP made a comment on the high jitter from the TI 5CC15PT isolators on the F-1 - looks like the SU-1 uses them as well.

  
  
 I may have to order up a Pro3z box to compare the SQ.


----------



## rb2013

A while ago over on the Regen thread, OP made a comment on the jitter from the TI 5CC15PT isolators.  Looks like the SU-1 uses them as well:

  
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/762967/uptone-audio-usb-regen/900#post_12464901


----------



## rb2013

DIYinHK has a pretty nice LT3042 board available:
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/accessories0/73-08uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v5v-1ax2.html
  
 PS Never mind out of stock.  Will keep an eye out for availability.


----------



## rb2013

For those looking for a DIY i2s version (does SPDIF as well) of the DIYinHK XU216 $129:
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/116-isolated-xmos-768khz-dxd-dsd512dsd1024-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html
  


> 3) This PCB uses linear regulator and it do not have onchip/onboard DC-DC switching converter. Thus it is power hungry:- 800mA maximum, 400mA typical (due to the use of all linear regulator) but it should also favour many people who do not like to use DC-DC convertor.


----------



## classfolkphile

An addendum to my short review of the Singxer SU-1 in post #3453. I had around 100-110 hours on it at the time and thought it was fully broken in as the recessed mid-range moved forward in line with the bass and treble then. The SU-1 is, as I noted, very revealing (much more so than the AR-T Legato it replaced) and I thought the coolness I heard was part of it's character (as the Legato/my system are slightly to the warm side).
  
 So I was surprised when I turned it on at around 130 hours and heard a very harmonically rich, but accurate, presentation. _Very pleasantly_ surprised. I am now extremely impressed with the unit, even more so as I'm still using the stock cable (Dave Elledge/PI Audio told me the reason his cable did not work originally is that the stock cable is _not_ IEEE compliant - something to keep in mind if purchasing a new USB cable).


----------



## Sligolad

rb2013 said:


> For those looking for a DIY i2s version (does SPDIF as well) of the DIYinHK XU216 $129:
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/116-isolated-xmos-768khz-dxd-dsd512dsd1024-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html


 
  
  


rb2013 said:


> DIYinHK has a pretty nice LT3042 board available:
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/accessories0/73-08uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v5v-1ax2.html
> 
> PS Never mind out of stock.  Will keep an eye out for availability.


 
 First post here despite planning to contribute many times after discovering this thread earlier this year and purchasing the F1. Thanks to Rob for the great thread.
  
 I started with the F1 spdif in to my Lampi Big7 powered by clean linear 5v from Big7 and it was a winner from first note over the Amanero USB in the Big7.
 Moved to I2S out of F1 later and this was as good as the spdif out.
  
 Next up tried both the JL Sounds I2SoverUSB board with oscillator board and Crystek clocks and the XMOS 768kHz DXD DSD512(DSD1024) high-quality USB to I2S/DSD PCB from DIYinHK (I2S out again with linear power on JL and LiPo 3.3v battery for DIYinHK board).
 Both were a step up over the F1.
  
 In recent weeks went with the new board Rob linked to above with Isolation and another jump up in quality of reproduction over JL Sounds and XMOS without Isolation.
 The board needs 2 x 3.3v to work so I am using 2 LiPo batteries to run it at the moment and it does sound amazing through the Big7.
  
 Apologies Rob  for the Out of Stock but I also bought 2 x the 08uv-ultralow-noise-power-supply-regulators also linked to above and have only just soldered one of the boards together so have yet to feed it with power to compare with the LiPo battery supplies.
 There are various spare AC secondaries on some of the transformers in the Big7 so I should be able to find 2 x 5 to 8 volt rails to feed the regulator when I get some time.
 I will post feedback when I get to trying out the regulators.
  
 For the moment the new Isolated XMOS board is top of the heap for me and some day I will try AOIP when a more compact solution comes along as I am not quite done with USB just yet.
 My output chain has a well tweaked Audio PC running WTFPlay with Teradak ATX supply and Paul Hynes supplies feeding a JCat into an Intona into a Lipo 3.3v powered Regen (J Kenny mod with 5v gone at this point) into the * Isolated* *768k USB to I2S/DSD PCB *linked to above with 2x 3.3v Lithium Phosphate batteries for power, just using I2S out and it sounds really good.
  
 2016 has turned into a very good year for Digital based playback with some great low cost upgrades coming along and some great threads cropping up on good sources of components.
 Thanks to all here for the inspiration and I am keeping an eye on the AOIP developments as well.
 Cheers, Pearse.


----------



## FredA

sligolad said:


> First post here despite planning to contribute many times after discovering this thread earlier this year and purchasing the F1. Thanks to Rob for the great thread.
> 
> I started with the F1 spdif in to my Lampi Big7 powered by clean linear 5v from Big7 and it was a winner from first note over the Amanero USB in the Big7.
> Moved to I2S out of F1 later and this was as good as the spdif out.
> ...





Thanks for this great feedback. I almost pulled the trigger on a diy board from diyinhk at some point. Might do it if nothing better comes along. Those interfaces make as much difference, if not more, than a dac upgrade, for not much money. This is a revolution!


----------



## ccschua

DIYINHK 0.8uV power supply is good. I am using it to supply my PPA V4, and I needed two in parallel to be able to power up the OCXO and the F1.
  
 I use another DIYINHK 0.8uV supply to feed the motherboard PPA V4. again there is a difference. the same goes for motherboard power supply which uses a discrete supply.
  
 you do need some soldering basic skill though.
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/89-08uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-3357v-15ax2.html


----------



## drez

Yes I was going yo say the 3.3/5/7V LT3042 PSU is in stock. I have one incoming. Not sure I will have enough power for both JCAT USB and Singer F1 I want to power. I might need a second PSU (might try a different one) while I'm at it. Or could just use spare rail from my ATX LPSU but that is like 2mV ripple I think.

.


----------



## r11bordo

Hi,
I am about 30 hours of burn in for both interfaces. Pro3z stays more warm, more confortable to listen, and more foot taping. The Pro3z provides more depth where the Singxer F-1 gives more width. 
But the level of performance or excellency is quite similar...


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> So it appears that the Singxer design has inherent flaws as opposed to the Pro3a/z design or that of the Hydra Z.  That by using the B0505S as a DC power device - no matter how clean of a DC power you feed the F-1 you are still left with 16uv of noise to the audio clocks.


 
 I won't put it that way, it's more of a market decision. Remember I read an interview about F-1 earlier this year, the interviewer specifically point out B0505S and
 ask why they put such a sub-optimal component there, reply from Singxer is ".....considering the cost..., to lower the sale price...". Also from their advertisement,
 one of its target market is replacing the Amanero module built into a lot of DACs --- compatible mounting hole, compatible pin out, etc. And the +5V, Gnd power through
 holes right beside B0505S give strong hint to owners - you could remove B0505S and use DAC's internal power or a better source to power the clean section.
  


> So from what you have explained the F-1 does not have any isolation on the SPDIF output?


 
 Right. For I2S users, this is a non-issue; for SPDIF users, I won't worry too much, the noisy XMOS is already blocked out, so the clean section is pretty quiet.
  
  


> Does the SU-1 use the B0505S - it doesn't appear on the main board - but this could be it on the PS board.  Hard to tell from the picture:


 
 No. It has built-in LPS using LM2940 to power the clean section; As analyzed in previous post, the power driving the XOs is a solid 9uV.
  
  


> This is the Pro3a board. I still believe the Murata is for the SPDIF isolation, not USB.


 
 Yes, I agree with you, see post #3058
  

   





> But with it's direct ext DC input and no 'dirty' vs 'clean' isolation scheme - it appears to have the ability of achieving lower noise to the audio clocks without modification.  Coupled with it's on board ultra low noise 1uv linear power regulator (versus the 9uv ADP150) - it should be better.  I have not seen a photo of the Pro3z board - but should be close to the same (from the DIYinHK description of the two), just with a XU216 vs the U8 XMOS.  May have to give that one a try.


 
 Other factors need to be considered too, ex. does 1uV LDO power both XOs and XMOS, or there are separate LDOs for each. Noisy XMOS will feed its generated noise back to its power line, usually bypass capacitor won't be able to constrain all the noise locally, so it will pass to the XOs if a single LDO is shared by both. Layout and board size also will determine if 1uV noise level can really be achieved throughout the board.
 Personally I will wait till end of this year. I believe a lot more XU216 based DDC will come out pretty soon. Also I will wait until comparison against SU-1, not F-1 which definitely need modification to really show its potential.
  
 I thought you already decided to upgrade your office setup to AOIP too?
  
  


> On another note - looking at your photo - did you remove the 24.576Mhz Crystek clock?  How will it generate the 44.1K, 88.2K, 176.4K audio freq?  Or are you just ignoring those SR's?


 
 Just the metal cover, due to the cramped space in my DAC (F-1 is installed inside my DAC), and constant removing and installing for modification, taking photo, etc.
 the cover just come off, soldered it back many times, finally decide to give up. Worry about EMI shielding initially, luckily no negative influence can be detected so
 far.


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> Back awhile ago OP made a comment on the high jitter from the TI 5CC15PT isolators on the F-1 - looks like the SU-1 uses them as well.


 
 No, F-1 uses Ti's ISO7641 rated 150Mhz. The introduced jitter should be easily cleaned up by the CPLD at the final stage.


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> No, F-1 uses Ti's ISO7641 rated 150Mhz. The introduced jitter should be easily cleaned up by the CPLD at the final stage.


 

 I see thanks for the clarification


----------



## rb2013

sligolad said:


> First post here despite planning to contribute many times after discovering this thread earlier this year and purchasing the F1. Thanks to Rob for the great thread.
> 
> I started with the F1 spdif in to my Lampi Big7 powered by clean linear 5v from Big7 and it was a winner from first note over the Amanero USB in the Big7.
> Moved to I2S out of F1 later and this was as good as the spdif out.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the feedback.  Agree 2016 has been a great year for digital audio!


----------



## rb2013

r11bordo said:


> Hi,
> I am about 30 hours of burn in for both interfaces. Pro3z stays more warm, more confortable to listen, and more foot taping. The Pro3z provides more depth where the Singxer F-1 gives more width.
> But the level of performance or excellency is quite similar...


 

 Good report -I am intrigued again about the Z. How are you powering them?


----------



## r11bordo

rb2013 said:


> Good report -I am intrigued again about the Z. How are you powering them?


 
 The used power chain is Ifi Ipower -> W4S Recovery -> interface Usb (for both pro3z and F-1) in order to have the same configuration for comparaison.
 But this afternoon, I have tried 2 others configurations, the pro3z powered with battery (5v) or Teradak 5V ... Curiously, with battery the result is quite special, sounds very warm and quite fuzzy. With Teradak, all become clean, open and very dynamic ! depth and width are present and it is the best configuration tested as now.
 I am curious about a new ifi ipower 5V can bring with the pro3z ...
  
 I don't understand how a Teradak can improve the result like this... The iPower and the Recovery gives a very silent power and I thought the difference was very low by using USB 5v power. But it not the case...


----------



## kazsud

r11bordo said:


> The used power chain is Ifi Ipower -> W4S Recovery -> interface Usb (for both pro3z and F-1) in order to have the same configuration for comparaison.
> But this afternoon, I have tried 2 others configurations, the pro3z powered with battery (5v) or Teradak 5V ... Curiously, with battery the result is quite special, sounds very warm and quite fuzzy. With Teradak, all become clean, open and very dynamic ! depth and width are present and it is the best configuration tested as now.
> I am curious about a new ifi ipower 5V can bring with the pro3z ...
> 
> I don't understand how a Teradak can improve the result like this... The iPower and the Recovery gives a very silent power and I thought the difference was very low by using USB 5v power. But it not the case...




I am in the process of returning my new ifi ipower 5v and have a lps similar to the one in the SU-1 coming from china.


----------



## rb2013

r11bordo said:


> The used power chain is Ifi Ipower -> W4S Recovery -> interface Usb (for both pro3z and F-1) in order to have the same configuration for comparaison.
> But this afternoon, I have tried 2 others configurations, the pro3z powered with battery (5v) or Teradak 5V ... Curiously, with battery the result is quite special, sounds very warm and quite fuzzy. With Teradak, all become clean, open and very dynamic ! depth and width are present and it is the best configuration tested as now.
> I am curious about a new ifi ipower 5V can bring with the pro3z ...
> 
> I don't understand how a Teradak can improve the result like this... The iPower and the Recovery gives a very silent power and I thought the difference was very low by using USB 5v power. But it not the case...


 

 Good report - I had the same experience.  The TeraDak made better with a cap swap - high PSRR Nichicon HW's.  Then adding a iFi DC iPurifier to the DC end of the TeraDak cord before the Recovery.
  
 The Li ion batteries I have tried gave me the same results a warm and fuzzy presentation - a bit lacking in dynamics.
  
 The iPower is very good for the money - but the modded TeraDak is better.  Even the stock X1/X2 is better.


----------



## rb2013

kazsud said:


> I am in the process of returning my new ifi ipower 5v and have a lps similar to the one in the SU-1 coming from china.


 
 Would love to see someone build one of these with the LT3042 LDO's.
  
 So far the best of the Chinese LPS I have tried is the R-Core TeraDak DC-30W.   I modded with Nichicon HWs.


----------



## rwmj5

I'm sorry if I'm completely clueless on this topic, but are the XMOS U8 coverters that are on ebay for less than $100 any good, or are they just junk?  Also, are there any issues with drivers running these on Windows 10?  The whole driver situation with this chip is very confusing with usb audio 2.0 only being supported for pros at some high price etc.  Not sure if it yould make any difference to someone just listening to playback.  I would like to get high quality output from Spotify...


----------



## drez

rb2013 said:


> Would love to see someone build one of these with the LT3042 LDO's.
> 
> So far the best of the Chinese LPS I have tried is the R-Core TeraDak DC-30W.   I modded with Nichicon HWs.


 
  
 I'm glad you posted this.  I was looking for replacement for the Panasonic FC on the DIYNHK kit and those might do the trick.  Thanks.


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> I won't put it that way, it's more of a market decision. Remember I read an interview about F-1 earlier this year, the interviewer specifically point out B0505S and
> ask why they put such a sub-optimal component there, reply from Singxer is ".....considering the cost..., to lower the sale price...". Also from their advertisement,
> one of its target market is replacing the Amanero module built into a lot of DACs --- compatible mounting hole, compatible pin out, etc. And the +5V, Gnd power through
> holes right beside B0505S give strong hint to owners - you could remove B0505S and use DAC's internal power or a better source to power the clean section.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the information.  Esp on the DC-DC stuff.
  
 I'm still working out the mods on the BURL - so running USB in my office until then- and until I sell the rest of my USB chain stuff.
  
 I'm assuming the F-1 and SU-1 are designed to shut down which ever clock is not running  to min noise. 
  
 Looking at the Digikey info on the CCHD-575 - it does not appear to have the Tri-State Standby (enable/disable) function.  The CCHD-975 does.
  
 This was from the Hydra Z website:


> *TECHNICAL IMPROVEMENTS* Hydra Z benefits from all the qualities of the X+, and even more. New clocking scheme allows shutting down one of the two main oscillators when not in use. By reducing the mutual interference between clocks, better phase noise performance can be obtained. The power supply section was moved to a different chassis for best results.


 
  
 The Hydra Z like the Berkeley use the 975.


----------



## rb2013

drez said:


> I'm glad you posted this.  I was looking for replacement for the Panasonic FC on the DIYNHK kit and those might do the trick.  Thanks.


 

 De Nada
  
 PS
 Just a comment on the Talema - not really anything that special - just better then the BingZi that Gustard used in the U12 and the std version of the DU-U8.
  
 Once I find some time and funds will go with a Simon Tuned or Lite R-core and build a PS.
  
 Interesting debate on the best design of PS transformer: EI, Toroidal, R-Core.
  
 I have always understood that the R-core have the best noise filtering ability:
 https://www.audialonline.com/topics/psu-transformers-ei-vs-toroidal-and-more/
 http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/55835-why-a-torroidal-instead-of-an-r-core-transformer-in-digital/
  


> What you have stated is mostly true. However, the reason why R-core transformers are the best choice for ALL low level audio applications, is due to their far lower coupling. This means that any mains-bourn interference will be greatly attenuated by an R-core transformer, compared to a toroidal. E-I type transformers lie somewhere in the middle. Better than toroidals, but not as good as R-core types. And yes, radiation is higher with both R-core and E-I types, but that can effectively dealt with by either good shielding, or placing the transformer in a separate enclosure.


 
  
 For the R-Core and EI - best to have it well away from the DDC electronics:


----------



## rb2013

rwmj5 said:


> I'm sorry if I'm completely clueless on this topic, but are the XMOS U8 coverters that are on ebay for less than $100 any good, or are they just junk?  Also, are there any issues with drivers running these on Windows 10?  The whole driver situation with this chip is very confusing with usb audio 2.0 only being supported for pros at some high price etc.  Not sure if it yould make any difference to someone just listening to playback.  I would like to get high quality output from Spotify...


 

 No worries on WIN10 and the drivers - on my system they worked fine.
  
 Under $100?  Maybe a bit more for the Breeze DU-U8 - with the Talema is still a darn good DDC.


----------



## bButcher

rb2013 said:


> I'm assuming the F-1 and SU-1 are designed to shut down which ever clock is not running  to min noise.
> 
> Looking at the Digikey info on the CCHD-575 - it does not appear to have the Tri-State Standby (enable/disable) function.  The CCHD-975 does.


 
 Yes, from CCHD-575's spec, it doesn't have enable pin and the list typical consumption is 15mA. Since on my unit the measured current draw is 14mA for the XOs so only one is running while working and on Singxer's website, it mention "*Customized *CRYSTEK femto clocks are used". So maybe the customization part is the added enable pin.
  
 O.K. confirmed. Just measure it, the two enable pins are connected to CPLD's pin 18 & 19.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Looking at the Digikey info on the CCHD-575 - it does not appear to have the Tri-State Standby (enable/disable) function.  The CCHD-975 does.


 
  
 Hi Rob:
  
 I promise you you the 575 is the better clock.  Crystek will even say so themselves.  They have improved their process a great deal.  The 3 samples they sent us last year each came with their own phase noise plots.  At 10Hz offset the samples were -108, -110, and -112dB  Much better than their own published graphs and much better than the 957.  Pretty fantastic for a $9.40 clock (that's 1K price direct).  Plus it is physically much smaller which also has its advantages.
  
 --Alex C.


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Once I find some time and funds will go with a Simon Tuned or Lite R-core and build a PS.


 
  
 Go for the R-core Rob!  When we were designing the choke-filtered JS-2 in early 2014, we compared a really good toroid to an R-core and there was absolutely no contest.  The R-core smoked the toroid in every way.  The ones we use are copper shielded, but here is the pic from that fateful day (toroid version up on wood blocks):


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> Hi Rob:
> 
> I promise you you the 575 is the better clock.  Crystek will even say so themselves.  They have improved their process a great deal.  The 3 samples they sent us last year each came with their own phase noise plots.  At 10Hz offset the samples were -108, -110, and -112dB  Much better than their own published graphs and much better than the 957.  Pretty fantastic for a $9.40 clock (that's 1K price direct).  Plus it is physically much smaller which also has its advantages.
> 
> --Alex C.


 
 Hi Alex - Nice to see you back here!  We may have had our battles, but I always respect your knowledge and input.  Good info on the 575 - strange Digikey did not show a version with the Tri-state feature, or maybe I missed something.  Or maybe it's not as important as Audiobyte says?  That is the ability to disable the unused audio clock.
  
 As you can see a few talented folks here are working some very interesting mods to the F-1.  Maybe Uptone could do a Uber-F-1?  That would be very interesting.
  


superdad said:


> Go for the R-core Rob!  When we were designing the choke-filtered JS-2 in early 2014, we compared a really good toroid to an R-core and there was absolutely no contest.  The R-core smoked the toroid in every way.  The ones we use are copper shielded, but here is the pic from that fateful day (toroid version up on wood blocks):


 
 Nice!  Your concurrence is appreciated.  I can see the use of a toroidal in a small one unit case design - due to the EMI issues.  But that can easily be a non-factor with an ext LPS box.
  
 Researching yesterday I came across this comment:


> > Thanks Zaphod, but isn't mains bourne interference dealt with by chokes and capacitors?
> 
> 
> It should be, but every bit helps. And R-core transformers are around 100 times better than toroidals. They're not just a little bit better. They are spectacularly, brilliantly better. The reality is, that for anyone purporting to build the best product possible, then the best components should be used (within cost constraints, of course). I will remind you once more: Toroidals are the very WORST choice of power transformer for low level (audio) components. ANY transformer will make a better choice.


 
 http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/55835-why-a-torroidal-instead-of-an-r-core-transformer-in-digital/
  
 Also looked at shielding materials - came on this - looks like copper is pretty good.
 http://www.ets-lindgren.com/pdf/emctd_1293_weibler.pdf


----------



## rb2013

bbutcher said:


> Yes, from CCHD-575's spec, it doesn't have enable pin and the list typical consumption is 15mA. Since on my unit the measured current draw is 14mA for the XOs so only one is running while working and on Singxer's website, it mention "*Customized *CRYSTEK femto clocks are used". So maybe the customization part is the added enable pin.
> 
> O.K. confirmed. Just measure it, the two enable pins are connected to CPLD's pin 18 & 19.


 

 Good stuff - those Singxer folks are smart...so I guess a special spec'd version vs the OTC.


----------



## MaXaZoR

I just picked up a SU-1 to use with my HTPC -->Intona-->Schiit Gumby chain.
  
 I'm curious what cable and input should I use on the Gumby, AES?   Anyone have any decent relatively cheap cables they would recommend for this chain?


----------



## gldgate

While there will never be a consensus, I know of many folks with Yggy/Gumby's who seem to prefer AES - me included. However, don't expect the difference to be "night and day".  
  
 I actually like these for well made inexpensive AES cables.
  
https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/cables/products/benchmark-digital-xlr-cable


----------



## mordicai

maxazor said:


> I just picked up a SU-1 to use with my HTPC -->Intona-->Schiit Gumby chain.
> 
> I'm curious what cable and input should I use on the Gumby, AES?   Anyone have any decent relatively cheap cables they would recommend for this chain?


 

 bluejeans cable


----------



## Martinrey

Sorry to come into this thread so late.  Does the Singxer F-1 XMOS XU208 USB Digital Interface 384K Coaxial I2S DSD256 With case work well to upsample to DSD 256 using Foobar into the Gustard X20 U.  Right now I am upsampling to DSD 128 into the Gustard.  Does the Singxer support I2S?  If so what type of cable shoud I use to interface between the Singxer and the Gustard?  
  
 Thanks for you indulgence...(I know these are newbee questions)...
  
 - Martin


----------



## drez

rb2013 said:


> Hi Alex - Nice to see you back here!  We may have had our battles, but I always respect your knowledge and input.  Good info on the 575 - strange Digikey did not show a version with the Tri-state feature, or maybe I missed something.  Or maybe it's not as important as Audiobyte says?  That is the ability to disable the unused audio clock.
> 
> As you can see a few talented folks here are working some very interesting mods to the F-1.  Maybe Uptone could do a Uber-F-1?  That would be very interesting.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I was agonising over transformer selection for this power supply.  I think the inductive coupling issue is real when it comes to rejecting line noise, and also possibly noise between secondary windings.  The thing is though the transformer is not the only way to reduce line noise.  You can also use a line filter, although I am not sure how these compare in terms of strengths, weaknesses, tradeoffs etc.
  
 I was not able to find an appropriate R core for this build unfortunately.  Not many with 5V secondaries.  Especially in bigger transformers which have better voltage regulation.  The secondary voltage seems to vary a lot over different load especially on the smaller units which might have been an issue with my power supply in that the voltage would have been a bit high at the load I would be using.
  
 The shielding seems a good idea.  I was looking at a shielded O core, or using mu-metal.  For me the other thing is humming, which R cores are very low hum.  The potted toroidals might be good also.  I might still end up using the mu-metal as this PSU will sit right on top of my DAC digital circuits.  Actually the EI core I bought for prototyping might be pretty bad for that as well as radiated EMF.  I am keen to minimise vibrations as they seems to work their way back into the signal through microphonic components.


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> So far the best of the Chinese LPS I have tried is the R-Core TeraDak DC-30W.   I modded with Nichicon HWs.


 
  
 Hi *rb2013,*
 would it be possible to power an iFi iPurifier or Singxer F-1 with this Teradak DC-30W even if the output is 5V 3A instead of the classic 5V 0,5A of the usb bus?
  
 If yes what cable do you use? if I understand correctly the DC-30W comes with a DC Cable only
  
 thanks!


----------



## ccschua

this is a very frequent question asked by the user. 
  
 its like asking can I use 5000cc car instead of a 800cc compact car running on a highway.


----------



## rb2013

drez said:


> I was agonising over transformer selection for this power supply.  I think the inductive coupling issue is real when it comes to rejecting line noise, and also possibly noise between secondary windings.  The thing is though the transformer is not the only way to reduce line noise.  You can also use a line filter, although I am not sure how these compare in terms of strengths, weaknesses, tradeoffs etc.
> 
> I was not able to find an appropriate R core for this build unfortunately.  Not many with 5V secondaries.  Especially in bigger transformers which have better voltage regulation.  The secondary voltage seems to vary a lot over different load especially on the smaller units which might have been an issue with my power supply in that the voltage would have been a bit high at the load I would be using.
> 
> The shielding seems a good idea.  I was looking at a shielded O core, or using mu-metal.  For me the other thing is humming, which R cores are very low hum.  The potted toroidals might be good also.  I might still end up using the mu-metal as this PSU will sit right on top of my DAC digital circuits.  Actually the EI core I bought for prototyping might be pretty bad for that as well as radiated EMF.  I am keen to minimise vibrations as they seems to work their way back into the signal through microphonic components.


 
 Good question on the noise rejection issue.  I have to say the more I experiment with power filtering - both AC and DC - the more I'm interested in maximizing this aspect of audio.  This applied to digital - as my analog systems seemed much more immune to line noise.  The beating heart of the entire digital chain are these femto clocks - and they appear to be quite sensitive to noise.
  
 So even with a pretty good AC line filtering chain: Teslaplex>Audience Rp1 (AC line conditioner and balancer)>Art Audio PB4X4Pros (common mode and differential mode AC filtering and isolation - separate ones for DDC, DAC and PC) - I have still noticed an improvement with the better LPS's.  None of the TeraDak's I have make any discernible transformer vibration or noise.  I still use BB boxes on top with vibration isolation underneath each - as with all my gear.  Vibrating control is a whole other issue.  I keep my TeraDaks a foot away from the F-1 (suing the Recovery in between).  Vibration is another reason I like to have the PS external.
  
 But here is my ranking for PS's feeding the F-1 and Recovery:
 1) TeraDak DC-30W (modded with Nichicon HW caps) + DC iPur
 2) TeraDak DC-30W (modded with Nichicon HW caps)
 3) TeraDak DC-30W (stock caps) + DC iPur
 4) TeraDak X1/X2 (modded with Nichicon HW caps) +DC iPur
 5) TeraDak DC-30W (stock caps)
 5) TeraDak X1/X2 (modded with Nichicon HW caps)
 6) TeraDak X1/X2 (stock caps) + DC iPur
 7) TeraDak X1/X2 (stock caps)
 8) iFi iPower
 9) stock SMPS
  
 Note the DC-30W has a copper shielded R-core transformer.  The Nichicon HW caps have a higher PSRR then the stock caps (and a 5x longer life, lower impedance)


wakka992 said:


> Hi *rb2013,*
> would it be possible to power an iFi iPurifier or Singxer F-1 with this Teradak DC-30W even if the output is 5V 3A instead of the classic 5V 0,5A of the usb bus?
> 
> If yes what cable do you use? if I understand correctly the DC-30W comes with a DC Cable only
> ...


 
 No problem - just be sure the voltage is set properly. You can get DC plug to USB Female adapters.  I would recommend using a Regen or Recovery (or an iUSB 2.0 or iUSB 3.0 - with the USB3.0 no need for the DC iPurifier as it's built into the new design) - they each have ext DC inputs and additional power filtering.  With the iPurifer and iPurifer2 (much prefer the latter, big leap in performance over the original), is just takes the power feed off the USB 5VDC.
  


ccschua said:


> this is a very frequent question asked by the user.
> 
> its like asking can I use 5000cc car instead of a 800cc compact car running on a highway.


 
 Yes  - no problem at all.


----------



## drez

I gave up on the LT3042 PSU I bought.  Not sure it will be the best fit for what I have in mind (as a pre-regulator to the isolated section of the Singer F-1).  
  
 Too many headaches so I am going with Sjostrom super regulator and bring my own rectifier and filter cap.  Hopefully I can use 9V R-core I bought in error.  Maybe order custom wound, potted and shielded O-core later.  I think the R core has some shielding, but not sure what % effective.
  
 Seems I will be doing a lot of point to point wiring despite investing in the crimping tool.  I guess it will come in handy for the AC wiring.


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> 1) TeraDak DC-30W (modded with Nichicon HW caps) + DC iPur
> 
> 
> No problem - just be sure the voltage is set properly. You can get DC plug to USB Female adapters.  I would recommend using a Regen or Recovery (or an iUSB 2.0 or iUSB 3.0 - with the USB3.0 no need for the DC iPurifier as it's built into the new design) - they each have ext DC inputs and additional power filtering.  With the iPurifer and iPurifer2 (much prefer the latter, big leap in performance over the original), is just takes the power feed off the USB 5VDC.


 
 Thanks for the answer.
  
 wouldn't it be better a good LPS such as the TeraDak DC-30W+iPurifier 2 instead of Regen/Recovery/iUSB that have external DC input?


----------



## rb2013

drez said:


> I gave up on the LT3042 PSU I bought.  Not sure it will be the best fit for what I have in mind (as a pre-regulator to the isolated section of the Singer F-1).
> 
> Too many headaches so I am going with Sjostrom super regulator and bring my own rectifier and filter cap.  Hopefully I can use 9V R-core I bought in error.  Maybe order custom wound, potted and shielded O-core later.  I think the R core has some shielding, but not sure what % effective.
> 
> Seems I will be doing a lot of point to point wiring despite investing in the crimping tool.  I guess it will come in handy for the AC wiring.


 

 Interesting project - looking forward to your results.
  
 Paul Hynes also sells some nice regulators:
 http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page6.html


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> 
> wouldn't it be better a good LPS such as the TeraDak DC-30W+iPurifier 2 instead of Regen/Recovery/iUSB that have external DC input?


 

 Actually they work together very well.  The Regen and Recovery have no power of their own - but need a higher voltage then the +5VDC than USB provides.
  
 The Recovery uses 9VDC and the Regen a range from say 7-9VDC.  This is due to their own low noise regulators - than then step down the voltage to +5VDC to the USB power leads after filtering.


----------



## rb2013

Another choice for LPS is the Teddy Pardo - using the 'Super Teddy Reg' scheme.
  
 ww.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/underthehood.html
  
 $400 for a USB version - not cheap!
 http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/usb-psus.html


----------



## wakka992

Thanks rb2013 for your advice!
  
 Thing is there's this cheap "TeraDak DC-30W 12V/1.5A FPGA Linear Power Supply" on ebay, I contacted the seller and it seems he'll ship me the 5V/3A version if asked to. In any case, should the seller "forget" about me and shipping the 12V/1.5A version is there any screw inside the case to adjust voltage/amp?
  
 thanks as always


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Thanks rb2013 for your advice!
> 
> Thing is there's this cheap "TeraDak DC-30W 12V/1.5A FPGA Linear Power Supply" on ebay, I contacted the seller and it seems he'll ship me the 5V/3A version if asked to. In any case, should the seller "forget" about me and shipping the 12V/1.5A version is there any screw inside the case to adjust voltage/amp?
> 
> thanks as always


 

 Yes both the DC-30W and the X1/X2 have voltage adjustment pots inside.
  
 WARNING: LETHAL VOLTAGE INSIDE - I adjust mine 'hot' with a meter on the DC outputs.  That pot screw is very small. Best to have an experienced tech do the adjustment for you.


----------



## rb2013

Interesting info from the Teddy Pardo website on power supplies:
  


> Linear power supplies, such as those used in Naim power supplies are based on a transformer, rectifier, smoothing capacitors, and a linear regulator. When the AC at the output of the transformer is rectified and smoothed, a ripple is still present on the DC rail. This ripple has the form of a saw tooth which translates into noise at all audible frequencies and has a negative effect on the sound quality. The better the power supply can filter this ripple the better the sound will be. To get an idea of how much the power supply can affect the sound quality suffice to mention that almost all Naim preamplifiers are based on the same amplification circuitry and differ in their ability to connect more or better power supplies.​ The amplitude of the ripple mentioned above decreases with the size and quality of the smoothing capacitors being used. Naim Audio uses a brute force technique for the HiCap; they use a 500VA transformer and rely on large low ESR capacitors.​


 
  


> The most common way to reduce ripple is to use a linear voltage regulator such as the LM317. The core of a linear regulator is an operational amplifier which monitors the output voltage and correct it using feedback. In order to reduce cost, most monolithic linear regulators, including the LM317 used by Naim for their power supplies, make use of a simple operational amplifier which generates its own additional noise. According to the LM317 datasheet it has a typical output noise of 0.003% of the output voltage. For an output voltage of 24V the output noise will be 0.72mV, not negligible...​ In addition, all linear (feedback) regulators, including the superior Jung SuperRegulator, have a limitation which is inherent to the way they operate, they can only fix a problem after it occurs. Since the speed in which they can fix the problem (regulate) is constant, their ripple rejection capability decreases with frequency. The LM317 has a ripple rejection of around 80db at 50Hz, which drops to merely 20db at very high frequencies (note that a -60db difference means x1000 times less!!!).​


 


> Switch mode power supplies, such as the small wall-wart power supplies provided with the Logitech Squeezebox or with many popular DACs, are based on switching technology rather than transformer/rectifier/bridge combination. The idea behind these power supplies is to charge a coil/capacitor at high frequency and use the energy they store. The advantages of this technology are numerous which makes them very popular. They are small, efficient, low cost, and they are readily available from many manufacturers (mostly in China). The main drawback of these power supplies is that they are noisy, very noisy... Not only do they have a high level of high frequency noise on the DC, but they often inject high frequency noise to the mains which may impact performance of other hi-fi equipment. In short, less than optimal for high-end audio equipment.​


----------



## wakka992

rb2013 said:


> Yes both the DC-30W and the X1/X2 have voltage adjustment pots inside.
> 
> WARNING: LETHAL VOLTAGE INSIDE - I adjust mine 'hot' with a meter on the DC outputs.  That pot screw is very small. Best to have an experienced tech do the adjustment for you.


 
  
 Is it the really small golden screw on the blue parts?
  
 Anyway, how can they have such difference in prices?
 - *TeraDak DC-30W-TOUCH DC5V 3A = 120USD*
*- TeraDak DC-30W 12V/1.5A FPGA = 60USD*
  
 Are there more DC-30W model?? I've asked the seller for clarification....


----------



## rb2013

wakka992 said:


> Is it the really small golden screw on the blue parts?
> 
> Anyway, how can they have such difference in prices?
> - *TeraDak DC-30W-TOUCH DC5V 3A = 120USD*
> ...


 

 Yes the brass screw - and yes there are a few different versions of the DC-30W.
  
 Here are two I have:


----------



## rb2013

Super Teddy Reg - interesting for $59
  
 http://www.teddypardo.com/diy/superteddyreg-37.html


----------



## r11bordo

On a Squeezebox Touch, I prefer ifi ipower to the Teradak. No comparison in fact. All is a way better with the ipower.


----------



## Clemmaster

IMO the teddy Pardo PSU are not very good with digital stuff.


----------



## riffer

clemmaster said:


> IMO the teddy Pardo PSU are not very good with digital stuff.



 


Just fine with my Touch.


----------



## Clemmaster

riffer said:


> clemmaster said:
> 
> 
> > IMO the teddy Pardo PSU are not very good with digital stuff.
> ...


 
 The touch is not a great transport anyway (soundwise).
  
 I don't like the TP with neither the Chord QuteHD nor the Dangerous Source.
  
 The MCRU psu was much better with the QuteHD.


----------



## rb2013

clemmaster said:


> The touch is not a great transport anyway (soundwise).
> 
> I don't like the TP with neither the Chord QuteHD nor the Dangerous Source.
> 
> The MCRU psu was much better with the QuteHD.


Do you have a link to the MCRU ps?

Not really excited about the TP for that kinda money. Would rather wait list for a SR3, better yet build a ps.


----------



## jabbr

rb2013 said:


> Do you have a link to the MCRU ps?
> 
> Not really excited about the TP for that kinda money. Would rather wait list for a SR3, better yet build a ps.




For a Paul Hynes SR3 there is no waiting list, just a lead time 5-15 working days. The SR3 is produced by Paul Hynes Audio in license of Paul Hynes.
The SR5, SR7 etc are handmade by Paul Hynes himself trading under the name of Paul Hynes Design. There will be waiting lists for these higher grade regulators / PSU's.


----------



## Moon Dragon

rb2013, do you listened DXIO PRO3z ?
 If yes, what place in your rating it occupies?


----------



## lazz

Posting this here to hopefully get some replies. Thx.
  
 I have purchased the su-1 and was wondering who else here is using one. What connections are you using. I have a NAD M51 dac and was wondering if i can use the bnc wclck out from the su-1 and connect it to the NAD. Which input on the NAD would be the one to connect to. Would a male bnc to male xlr cable work. Thx


----------



## classfolkphile

I use the BNC out of the SU-1 to the BNC input on my DAC. I haven't tried any other connections.


----------



## motberg

lazz said:


> Posting this here to hopefully get some replies. Thx.
> 
> I have purchased the su-1 and was wondering who else here is using one. What connections are you using. I have a NAD M51 dac and was wondering if i can use the bnc wclck out from the su-1 and connect it to the NAD. Which input on the NAD would be the one to connect to. Would a male bnc to male xlr cable work. Thx


 

 Hi, I just took a quick look at some photos and I did not see a wordclock input on your DAC.. so I would not worry about that.. possibly the best input would be the AES/EBU.. so you need an AES/EBU digital cable, many folks suggest 1.5 meter as a good length, but that is a pretty robust connection so you can go longer if necessary.
  
 You can also use the coaxial inputs and would need a SPDIF coax cable for that.. again 1.5 meter seems to be recommended.. the coax connection may start to lose quality over longer cable lengths.
  
 Important note.. your DAC has HDMI inputs but those inputs are NOT compatible with the HDMI i2S output on the SU-1... do NOT hook up the SU-1 to the NAD M51 through the HDMI
  
 Seems like a great DAC and I think the SU-1 should add some improvement... but my experience is that the SU-1 needs a long time to break-in.. (some folks do not believe in component break-in though..) so if it sounds a little rough at first, let it run for at least 150 hours before giving it a serious evaluation.


----------



## chauphuong

Try Supra, fifty something bucks


----------



## lazz

Thx guys. Yes I am currently using the aes/ebu xlr out to my dac. Already i can hear a large improvement after only 4 hours of use. I do believe in burn in and yes I have read that after 150 hours it gets a lot better. Can't wait as I am already very pleased. I was a little skeptical at first prior to purchasing the SU-1 but I am a convert. Obviously there are improvements to be made through the use of these types of devices. Now I am intrigued by the AIOP that is being talked about and the PS Audio Lanrover seems interesting.


----------



## r11bordo

riffer said:


> clemmaster said:
> 
> 
> > IMO the teddy Pardo PSU are not very good with digital stuff.
> ...



Just try a ifi ipower. The price is cheap and the effect is great ...


----------



## Clemmaster

I have one. It's worse than a $11 Jameco wall-wart *linear* PSU, like those that ship with the Sonicorbiter SE.

Bad luck with those devices, I guess...


----------



## rb2013

clemmaster said:


> I have one. It's worse than a $11 Jameco wall-wart *linear* PSU, like those that ship with the Sonicorbiter SE.
> 
> Bad luck with those devices, I guess...


 

 The iPower is still a switcher - just with filtering on the DC end.  SMPS feed high levels of noise back into the AC mains - orders of magnitude greater then a LPS.


----------



## mordicai

Need to build a cable for 12s from the F- 1 to a gustard x20. Does that take a standard HDMI or ??


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> The iPower is still a switcher - just with filtering on the DC end.  SMPS feed high levels of noise back into the AC mains - orders of magnitude greater then a LPS.


 

 The problem with SMPS units really is not the high frequency noise they kick back into the AC mains, since in order for modern SMPS units to Level V and Level VI certification they use spread-spectrum tricks and push their noise up and across hundreds of kilohertz.
  
 No the real problem with SMPS units is AC leakage current from the "Y" capacitors they have to use for safety.  All AC>DC power supplies (including LPSs) have leakage current, but it is far worse with SMPS units (and actually the iFi iPower has a rather weird spectrum in that regard).  But in a system it takes two power supplies (anywhere in a given interconnection loop) to form what should be termed "leakage loops" and not "ground loops."
  
 Our research is showing that a great deal of the ills and benefits of various audio interfaces are influenced by magnitude (and interaction) of supply leakage in a system.  For a little more on the topic see here are two really good posts from John Swenson (sorry, the second one includes a bit more about our leak-path-breaking ultracap supply, but I promise am not posting he for promotional purposes):
  
Swenson on types of grounds and leakage.
  
Swenson on leakage current loops.


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> The problem with SMPS units really is not the high frequency noise they kick back into the AC mains, since in order for modern SMPS units to Level V and Level VI certification they use spread-spectrum tricks and push their noise up and across hundreds of kilohertz.
> 
> No the real problem with SMPS units is AC leakage current from the "Y" capacitors they have to use for safety.  All AC>DC power supplies (including LPSs) have leakage current, but it is far worse with SMPS units (and actually the iFi iPower has a rather weird spectrum in that regard).  But in a system it takes two power supplies (anywhere in a given interconnection loop) to form what should be termed "leakage loops" and not "ground loops."
> 
> ...


 

 Great info - thanks Alex.  Tonight's reading while listening pleasure.   Needed to take a break from Lisa Randall's book on building detectors to observe Dark Matter - did you know there is a 'sound' particle. It's called a 'phonon'.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon
  
 Cheers


----------



## Superdad

rb2013 said:


> Needed to take a break from Lisa Randall's book on building detectors to observe Dark Matter - did you know there is a 'sound' particle. It's called a 'phonon'.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon


 
  
 How cool is that!?  Thanks for the link but I flunked calculus.   John is a major astronomy science buff though, and he is always regaling me about the tech tours and speakers they get at the astronomy club he is a officer of.
  
 About the closest I've gotten to any celestial body lately (besides my wife's) is through a fellow that bought our Mac mini DC-conversion/Linear Fan Controller Kit last week for use in making his ham data radio rig even quieter.  Apparently he is part of a club of operators that communicate ultra long distances by bouncing their signals off the moon!  The received signal has the data so deeply buried in the noise that silencing the whole setup to the nth-degree is key to their efforts.  I was excited to hear about this unique use of our product, but of course when I told John about it he knew all about that sort of thing and proceeded to bury me in the technical minutia of how it works. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Ciao!
 ALEX


----------



## motberg

mordicai said:


> Need to build a cable for 12s from the F- 1 to a gustard x20. Does that take a standard HDMI or ??


 

 I was thinking the same idea but I am not sure if it is technically possible just to use a wire connection..
 iiuc HDMI i2S uses a standard called LVDS which uses transmitter and receiver modules to balance the signal and allow longer cable lengths
 my guess is that if any mistake in the i2S wiring, you could damage something in the DAC and/or F1
  
 for the unbalanced RJ45 i2S connection, things are simpler but the length must be kept super short - you can check some of FredA recent posts for inspiration but that is different from HDMI i2S
  
 I recently compared the SU-1 BNC SPDIF outputs to the HDMI i2S outputs and they were pretty close in SQ...
 so I suggest while you are researching the i2S to get a nice coax cable between the F1 and DAC and get it burning in for a while... it will probably sound pretty good just like that...


----------



## mordicai

Moberg, What are people using for a i2s cable between the su1 and the x20? I thought they just used an HDMI


----------



## motberg

mordicai said:


> Moberg, What are people using for a i2s cable between the su1 and the x20? I thought they just used an HDMI


 

 Yes, for the SU-1 i2S a good quality HDMI is OK.. I am using 0.3M Wireworld Starlight 6, but have used up to 1M of same model cable OK (with a different DDC convertor)
 Also I have used Wireworld ultraviolet 6 0.3M
  
 If you want to try something cheaper, I would try this.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/WireWorld-Chroma-6-HDMI-0-3-meter-1-foot-long-HDMI-Cable-Wire-World-/361727937921?hash=item5438aa4d81:g:0NMAAOxy6-tR9rZY
  
 Probably any well made cable would be OK, as long as is short... if you need more than 0.3M, you may want to consider something made more robust.
  
 Be careful to make sure that both devices are powered off while connecting these things.. since it looks like regular TV HDMI it is easy to think just pull it out and connect when live, but that could possibly damage something.


----------



## slex

http://hifimediy.us11.list-manage.com/track/click?u=d3ef6ad8ce929a53def6accdc&id=fd169bbc34&e=c999e729a4

High speed Galvanic isolation on the cheap!!


----------



## rb2013

superdad said:


> How cool is that!?  Thanks for the link but I flunked calculus.   John is a major astronomy science buff though, and he is always regaling me about the tech tours and speakers they get at the astronomy club he is a officer of.
> 
> About the closest I've gotten to any celestial body lately (besides my wife's) is through a fellow that bought our Mac mini DC-conversion/Linear Fan Controller Kit last week for use in making his ham data radio rig even quieter.  Apparently he is part of a club of operators that communicate ultra long distances by bouncing their signals off the moon!  The received signal has the data so deeply buried in the noise that silencing the whole setup to the nth-degree is key to their efforts.  I was excited to hear about this unique use of our product, but of course when I told John about it he knew all about that sort of thing and proceeded to bury me in the technical minutia of how it works.
> 
> ...


 

 Great thread - congrats on the LPS-1 launch.  Love the idea of using Supercaps.
  
 Great post by John Swenson on SMPS vs LPS's:


> Almost anything that has the right voltage and current capacity can be used with the LPS-1. *The fairly inexpensive linear supplies on ebay (called the "El Cheapo" around here) will work fine. They still send some noise back to the mains but not nearly as much as an SMPS.* So if you already have one they will work great.
> 
> One VERY important note: DO NOT under ANY circumstances use an unregulated supply with the LPS-1. These can have wildly varying voltages, particularly at startup. This could fry the input circuits. I have one here that is nominally a 9V supply, but hits over 15V at startup. This won't fry an LPS-1 but an unregulated 12V one might.
> 
> ...


 
  So my take aways:
  
 >SMPS's send much more noise back to the AC mains then even the low cost LPS's
  
 >LPS's do send some noise back to the AC mains - depending on the number and size of the filtering caps they have.  The more caps the more noise.  BUT...
  
 > Those caps are important to smooth DC output ripple - so better they have more and larger.  The TeraDak LPS's can be made much better by replacing the stock caps with better high PSRR, low ESR ones like the Nichicon HW's.  When using a LPS to power a digital device the better the PSRR the lower the noise.  The lower the noise the better.


----------



## rb2013

Now by adding one of these iFi DC iPurifers to the DC output of the LPS - with the better HW caps - you have a very low noise power supply.
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-dcipurifier/


----------



## rb2013

slex said:


> http://hifimediy.us11.list-manage.com/track/click?u=d3ef6ad8ce929a53def6accdc&id=fd169bbc34&e=c999e729a4
> 
> High speed Galvanic isolation on the cheap!!


 

 Nice find - will order one tomorrow.
  
 Cheers!
  
 Damn i love this thread!


----------



## slex

Heh, 4 of these equal to around one industrial itona


----------



## mordicai

motberg said:


> mordicai said:
> 
> 
> > Moberg, What are people using for a i2s cable between the su1 and the x20? I thought they just used an HDMI
> ...


 
 Thanks Moberg. I had assumed I could just plug one end of an HDMI cable into there x 20 and hard wire the other end into the F1. It seems that if I want to use i2s, Id be better off with the su 1. What an expensive hobby!!


----------



## wakka992

Hi guys, had you already take a look at this little boy? ALLDAQ ADQ-USB 2.0-ISO
  
 http://cdn-reichelt.de/documents/datenblatt/E910/ALLDAQ_USB2_ISO_DB_EN_1_3.pdf
  
 USB 2.0 High-Speed Isolator, shielded  aluminum housing (unlike intona),  isolator technology supports High-Speed USB 2.0 devices up to 480Mbit/, permanent 1kv isolation, etc...
  
 quite a "bargain" for 204€ shipped. could be better than Intona, at least you can power it with a LPS of your choice! there are 2 version it seems, 5VDC and 7-25VDC
  
 What do you think? I'm considering giving it a try, I already have a 5VDC chinese LPS incoming and a iPurifier2
  
 Keep in mind I'm only looking to use it for USB purpose, no XU208 solution as my main DAC (Burson) has some S/pdif problem and I prefer usb on my mojo


----------



## wakka992

There's also a youtube link:
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ho32Ht1njk&feature=youtu.be
  
 I emailed ALLDAQ's tech department and it seems it doesn't use an FPGA but an all in one chip for the galvanic isolation. No special added clock either, so re-clocking max. High Speed Differential Jitter claimed is 600ms


----------



## Tboooe

Has anyone tried feeding a Mutec 3+ USB with a Singxer F-1 or SU-1?  Also interested to hear if anyone tried the clock output from the SU-1 to the Mutec.  Supposedly the USB implementation of the F-1 and SU-1 is better than the Mutec so it would stand to reason that bypassing the Mutec USB input with something superior should sound better right???


----------



## Nada

Has anyone who listened to a brand new F-1 noticed if the sound changed with time with a possible "burn in" effect?
  
 Im  curious if I should run the F-1 non-stop for a week at dual high sample rates (to work both clocks) before a serious listen?


----------



## carlmart

Hi,
  
 Sorry to chime in with probably a different option to the F1 all seem to be using.
  
 For my application the F1 was too expensive, compared to the DAC I'm going to use it with, so I was about to discard it when I found this option:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Q-1-Digital-Interface-Module-XU208-XMOS-USB-U8-Upgraded-for-Audio-Amplifier-/112126082592?hash=item1a1b3c3e20:g:gu8AAOSwMgdX0Ljj
  
 Am I wrong or this is the F1 without the SPDIF output? What else is different?
  
 My DAC is the Mini 24/96 based on the AK4396, which I'm gathering the parts for. Supplies will be Jung regulators, though I'm not sure if I can go down to 3.3v with them.
  
 I wanted to add an USB interface to it.


----------



## Yviena

I just asked DIYHNK about the pro3z and they have confirmed that they only use one 1uv LDO for it, i still think the pro3z would be better as it seems to give lower noise to the clocks vs F1 16uv.
  
 i do kinda question their choice of using the xu216 more cores doesn't necessarily  mean better sound, it could actually be the opposite if the xu216 is more noisy than than the xu208 and the noise rides back through the LDO to the XOs.


----------



## Kelowna

Re-post from another forum. I thought you guys might be interested:
  
Why external clocks are junk for home audio applications
 
It's extremely annoying reading about these 10Mhz external clocks with extremely low phase noise specs. The phase noise of the OCXO's in these clocks are absolutely irrelevant when it comes to the jitter performance of what it's clocking. Since we want educated clients and forum members, here's why these external clocks are total junk when it comes to home audio applications, no matter how low the phase noise is on the internal clock:
 
1: Most are all based on a 10Mhz OCXO. It's not hard to get extremely low phase noise at 10Mhz. But 10Mhz is useless for audio. You need multiples of 22/24Mhz to be useful for audio. So they must use a PLL generator to generate these frequencies, using the 10Mhz clock as a reference. However the phase noise/jitter of the generated frequency is far higher than the reference clock. So the only figure that is relevant is the phase noise of the frequency generated taken from the external output. But nobody ever publishes that figure!!
 
2: Even if you still have decent phase noise performance from the PLL generated clock output, by th e time the clock goes through the 2 connections, cable, and all of the connections in the DAC, so much jitter is added, that locating a $20 Crystek an inch away from the DAC chip will result in far lower jitter/phase noise at the only place it actually matters. Even if you are using a $20000 external clock.
 
The reason these external clocks were made from the beginning was to clock multiple devices in a studio environment. It was the only way to sync up the clocks between all of the ADC's, DAC, mixing boards etc, in a studio before AES67 came along. So it was out of necessity, not for performance reasons.
 
So why are these clocks sold to the audiophile market? To suck your money out of your wallet that's why. If it sounds better to you, there's only 2 reasons why:
 
1: The clock it's replacing in your DAC is total junk, so using the external actually does make a difference for the better.
 
2: Expectation bias based on price and beliefs.
 
The only good solution is putting that ultra low jitter clock into the DAC very close to what it's clocking. And not a 10Mhz clock either, it must be a multiple of 22/24 Mhz if you don't want to use a jitter adding PLL generator


----------



## Kelowna

superdad said:


> Hi Rob:
> 
> I promise you you the 575 is the better clock.  Crystek will even say so themselves.  They have improved their process a great deal.  The 3 samples they sent us last year each came with their own phase noise plots.  At 10Hz offset the samples were -108, -110, and -112dB  Much better than their own published graphs and much better than the 957.  Pretty fantastic for a $9.40 clock (that's 1K price direct).  Plus it is physically much smaller which also has its advantages.
> 
> --Alex C.


 
 This is a total lie. I have 2 phase noise plots taken from 50Mhz 575'a right from Crystek themselves. The 22/24 Mhz clocks they publish in the data sheet with 100dBc@ 10hz phase noise specs are cherry picked top tier clocks. Typical is 95-97 verified from 3rd party sources. If the 22/24' 575's were that low in phase noise we would be using them as budget options.
  

  
  
 Right there is proof how much phase noise can vary from clock to clock. A full 7dB!! Remember 3dB is double the phase noise! You are playing Russian roulette without measuring each one and sorting.


----------



## Kelowna

This datasheet was just revised in June of 2016. They won't publish a 100dBc 10Hz phase noise spec @ 22/24Mhz if the clocks actually measure -108 to -112. All of the clock specialist's I  know say Crystek's published spec's are top 5% clocks. -112dbC is 12 dB better than spec. This translates to 16x less jitter. Not a chance. 
  
 http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-575.pdf


----------



## Kelowna

Here's an 575 I upgraded my Exasound E20 with a few years ago:


----------



## Kelowna

I only used the 575 in the Exasound to match the upgrade Exasound did with their E22. However when I upgraded my Resonessence Lab's Mirus I used the 957 because of what this fellow from Crystek told me in this email:


----------



## Kelowna

These days anything worse than this we won't even look at. And without phase noise plots of each and every clock, we won't consider either. This is extremely important. 
  

  
  
 If Alex wants to share the plots from his 575's that will be great. I'll copy the images, and forward to Luiz at Crystek and let him know we want 1000 that measure like that and share the response with you guys.


----------



## Kelowna

Regarding SMPS supply noise sent back to the grid. Most SMPS's are terrible for this. The ONLY SMPS that don't have this problem are the very expensive ultra low noise medical versions. In fact they dump far less noise back to the mains than even really good LPS's do. Best of all they have to in order to pass the  IEC60601-1 Certification :
  
 https://www.artesyn.com/power/assets/emerson_safety_requirements_fo_1340322725.pdf
  
 Simply saying "trust us the noise is low" isn't enough to pass this strict certification for leakage current of maximum 100 micro amps. Here's an example of an ultra low noise SMPS that passes this certification, and also has ripple noise much less than many audiophile LPS's:
  
 http://daitronglobal.com/products/power/hfs30.html
  
 And noise specs of each model:
  
 http://daitronglobal.com/products/power/list/hfs30/pdf/electric_hfs30.pdf
  
 Also keep in mind this ultra low leakage current is both ways, not just back to the mains. So no noise dumped to your audio gear either.


----------



## somestranger26

kelowna said:


> Simply saying "trust us the noise is low" isn't enough to pass this strict certification for leakage current of maximum 100 micro amps. Here's an example of an ultra low noise SMPS that passes this certification, and also has ripple noise much less than many audiophile LPS's:
> 
> http://daitronglobal.com/products/power/hfd30.html


 
 Uh oh, you just opened a huge can of worms; Now everyone is going to be wondering where they can get one!


----------



## Kelowna

somestranger26 said:


> Uh oh, you just opened a huge can of worms; Now everyone is going to be wondering where they can get one!




Anyone can order direct from Daitron. $200 for 30w in 12 or 15v. Follow with a killer linear regulator bank with Belleson regs and ultra low ESR polymer caps and you'll have a supply that will eat ANYTHING for lunch. And don't forget a 350000 hour MTBF, and world wide voltage capability.  Oh yeah compact size, low heat.......


----------



## Tboooe

Is this medical grade smps any good? 

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_230683_-1


----------



## Kelowna

tboooe said:


> Is this medical grade smps any good?
> 
> http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_230683_-1


 
 The leakage current is only 100mA, but the ripple noise is 100000uV which is really bad. And since it's not rated P-P, it's RMS which is at least half of the P-P rating that the Daitron's are rated at.


----------



## Kelowna

Look at the 12v Daitron. Only 1640uV ripple P-P at full load!. RMS is half. And only 40uA leakage current. There's no budget way to get this level of performance. However only $200 is a bargain compared to audiophile supplies with who knows what actual specs.


----------



## Tboooe

Another very good option is the Acopian A series linear supplies. I have the 12v version and it has output ripple specs of 250uv rms. The part # I have is A12MT400

http://www.acopian.com/mobile/pages.aspx?page=single-l-goldbox-m


----------



## Kelowna

tboooe said:


> Another very good option is the Acopian A series linear supplies. I have the 12v version and it has output ripple specs of 250uv rms. The part # I have is A12MT400
> 
> http://www.acopian.com/mobile/pages.aspx?page=single-l-goldbox-m


 
 Looks like a nice supply but no leakage current specs, or load % at rated ripple. When they don't state a load rating it's always with no load. Here's the P-P no load rating of the 12V Daitron:
  

  
 And that's P-P so around half for RMS. But once we get this low in noise, leakage current is far more important for audio. Also depends on what you're powering. Most devices have several times the noise already regardless of the supply powering them.


----------



## Kelowna

Another interesting fact about LDO regulators. A popular low noise monolithic regulator is the TI TPS7A470:
  
 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps7a47.pdf
  
 It has a noise rating of only 4uV, which is fine, but far more important is the PSRR in the audio band. This rating is only 55dB. What this means is it only rejects the ripple by 55dB of the supply feeding it. So say you feed this regulator noise from a SMPS with a ripple noise rating of 250mV P-P (typical for regular SMPS's) . To find out the end noise there's a great noise to dB calculator here:
  
 http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm
  
 So when you calculate -55 db from 250000uV we get 444.5uV. This is the actual ripple noise that will exit this LDO, not the 4uV. In order to get the 4uV noise rating out of this LDO, it must be fed a supply with around 2300uV P-P ripple or lower. So feeding a regulator like this from a Daitron supply, the noise rating of the actual LDO will be the bottle neck. A cheap regulator board like this after the Daitron will lower the ripple to an actual 4uV noise, and still benefit from the ultra low leakage current, small form factor, low heat, and reliability: 
  
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/TPS7A4700-Ultralow-noise-4-VRMS-Power-Supply-1-4-20-5V-1A-for-Audio-DAC/252501322400?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140620091118%26meid%3Df6f36c5a1f0d4835a19feea4b553afac%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D252348749037
  
  
 Best of all it will only set you back $230!!


----------



## rb2013

tboooe said:


> Has anyone tried feeding a Mutec 3+ USB with a Singxer F-1 or SU-1?  Also interested to hear if anyone tried the clock output from the SU-1 to the Mutec.  Supposedly the USB implementation of the F-1 and SU-1 is better than the Mutec so it would stand to reason that bypassing the Mutec USB input with something superior should sound better right???


 
 Gone for 2 days on the coast - this thread has been busy!  I tried the Mutec as a SPDIF reclocker on the F-1 and in direct comparison as a USB DDC.  A well fed F-1 was better (see my rankings).  The Mutec as reclocker on the f-1 SPDIF did improve tyhe SQ, but not as much as on the Rednet 3 - just to expensive to justify.  I also had the W4S Remedy - this did not help the F-1 as a SPDIF reclocker like it did with the Breeze SU-U8.  The F-1's SPDIF output is very good - when it's well fed on it's power side.  The enshewing of the typical Murata output transformer in favor of a FPGA makes a real difference.  The Rednet 3 uses the worse Pulse output transformers.
  
 Unfortunately I never had a chance to hear the Tanly - it has a similar configuration to the F-1.  Same for the Hydra Z - I did own - it was very good.
  
  


nada said:


> Has anyone who listened to a brand new F-1 noticed if the sound changed with time with a possible "burn in" effect?
> 
> Im  curious if I should run the F-1 non-stop for a week at dual high sample rates (to work both clocks) before a serious listen?


 
 150 hrs min.
  


carlmart said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry to chime in with probably a different option to the F1 all seem to be using.
> 
> ...


 
 No a completely different board - does use a XU208 though
  


yviena said:


> I just asked DIYHNK about the pro3z and they have confirmed that they only use one 1uv LDO for it, i still think the pro3z would be better as it seems to give lower noise to the clocks vs F1 16uv.
> 
> i do kinda question their choice of using the xu216 more cores doesn't necessarily  mean better sound, it could actually be the opposite if the xu216 is more noisy than than the xu208 and the noise rides back through the LDO to the XOs.


 
 Agreed on the XU216 vs XU 208 - why?  Well they needed the extra processing horsepower to do 768K PCM...like that's practical.
  
 Wish they found a way to get rid of that Murata SPDIF output GI transformer - like the F-1


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Re-post from another forum. I thought you guys might be interested:
> 
> Why external clocks are junk for home audio applications
> 
> ...


 

 My ears beg to differ.  Theory is theory  - interesting for thought but nothing replaces in site evaluation.  And I can say without a doubt the Antelope OXCO definitely improved the Rednet 3.
  
 Anyway this post is pretty much worthless - just lacks the facts.
  
 The orders of magnitude (I posted all these numbers on the AOIP) of better clock frequency stability (both short and long term) for a well designed OXCO over the best TXCO's is well measured.  The 10Mhz clocking input to the Rednet is used as a 'displining' mechanism.  They extreme accuracy of the OPXCO is used as a ref point for the clocking circuit to fix to. 
  
 The Mutec MC-3+ USB uses a 1Ghz clock - is that junk too?
  
 It's much more relavent to the AOIP thread - but I guess you posted here because you are banned there?


----------



## Kelowna

Yes but what's the 10hz phase noise rating of the clock in the rednet? The reason for your results is likely reason #1.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> This is a total lie. I have 2 phase noise plots taken from 50Mhz 575'a right from Crystek themselves. The 22/24 Mhz clocks they publish in the data sheet with 100dBc@ 10hz phase noise specs are cherry picked top tier clocks. Typical is 95-97 verified from 3rd party sources. If the 22/24' 575's were that low in phase noise we would be using them as budget options.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Now Crystek is a liar?


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Here's an 575 I upgraded my Exasound E20 with a few years ago:


 
  
  


kelowna said:


> I only used the 575 in the Exasound to match the upgrade Exasound did with their E22. However when I upgraded my Resonessence Lab's Mirus I used the 957 because of what this fellow from Crystek told me in this email:


 
  
  


kelowna said:


> These days anything worse than this we won't even look at. And without phase noise plots of each and every clock, we won't consider either. This is extremely important.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 What's the point of all this?


----------



## Kelowna

No those plots are from Crystek. I trust they are accurate. Lets see the -108 to -112 @ 10hz 575 clock plots.


----------



## Kelowna

The point is I'm actually showing proof of things rather than blabbering BS.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Regarding SMPS supply noise sent back to the grid. Most SMPS's are terrible for this. The ONLY SMPS that don't have this problem are the very expensive ultra low noise medical versions. In fact they dump far less noise back to the mains than even really good LPS's do. Best of all they have to in order to pass the  IEC60601-1 Certification :
> 
> https://www.artesyn.com/power/assets/emerson_safety_requirements_fo_1340322725.pdf
> 
> ...


 
 Any measurments for a iFi iPower?
  


somestranger26 said:


> Uh oh, you just opened a huge can of worms; Now everyone is going to be wondering where they can get one!


 
 Doubt that at the cost
  


kelowna said:


> Anyone can order direct from Daitron. $200 for 30w in 12 or 15v. Follow with a killer linear regulator bank with Belleson regs and ultra low ESR polymer caps and you'll have a supply that will eat ANYTHING for lunch. And don't forget a 350000 hour MTBF, and world wide voltage capability.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 12v or 15v - what good is that?  Add in the cost of a $70 Belleson and ESR caps - oh if it were so easy...why don't you build some to sell if it's a giant killer.

 Seems like high quality power supplies are in high demand in the audio world - look a  PH's long backlog.


----------



## rb2013

tboooe said:


> Another very good option is the Acopian A series linear supplies. I have the 12v version and it has output ripple specs of 250uv rms. The part # I have is A12MT400
> 
> http://www.acopian.com/mobile/pages.aspx?page=single-l-goldbox-m


 

 I had one of their 'Gold Boxes'  to feed my EVO - the low noise versions get very expensive.  North of $300.


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> Any measurments for a iFi iPower?
> 
> Doubt that at the cost
> 
> ...


 
 Put the $29 TI TPS7A470 regulator after it and you will have any voltage you want and only 4uV noise.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Another interesting fact about LDO regulators. A popular low noise monolithic regulator is the TI TPS7A470:
> 
> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps7a47.pdf
> 
> ...


 

 Why not just a $99 Wryd?
  


> *Gimme some technical details on what Wyrd does, please?*
> Wyrd does two things: it replaces the noisy USB power from your computer with a low-noise linear power supply (no switchers here!) with precision regulators rated at 2.5uV RMS noise. (Or, as Mike Moffat says, “on the 8th day, God called National Semiconductor and told them how to make the best regulator in the world, the LM723."). This is literally 200,000x better than some of the USB ports we’ve measured, which have up to 500mV of high-frequency noise. It also uses a tightly spec’d crystal oscillator on its own filtered power supply for the USB repeater chip, for best possible stability.


----------



## Kelowna

The Wyrd isn't a 30W power supply. It's a USB cleaner.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> The point is I'm actually showing proof of things rather than blabbering BS.


 

 Just a free flow of Mike knowledge?  Streaming consciousness. And how about a  message on the meaning of life while you're at it?
  
 Maybe parse a bit to us 'idiots' to digest before launching into the next 6 subjects...


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> The Wyrd isn't a 30W power supply. It's a USB cleaner.


 

 2.5uv looks pretty good - and no soldering iron needed.
  
 It's a Class A 2.5uv power supply - just feeding it through a USB port.
  
 That can be easily converted to a stand alone PS.


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> Just a free flow of Mike knowledge?  Streaming consciousness. And how about a  message on the meaning of life while you're at it?
> 
> Maybe parse a bit to us 'idiots' to digest before launching into the next 6 subjects...


 
 Every engineer I know gets phase noise specs from machines like the Aligent 5052. Not what guys claim on forums. So I'm sharing plots direct from the clock manufacturer backing up my claims. Is that frowned upon?


----------



## Kelowna

The LDO might be rated at 2.5uV ripple, but if you read my post a few back that's meaningless without knowing the PSRR of the LDO, and the ripple noise of the supply feeding it. Also what's the leakage current rating? 
  
 Considering the supply feeding it is a noisy general purpose computer USB port, it better have a high PSRR through the audible range.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Every engineer I know gets phase noise specs from machines like the Aligent 5052. Not what guys claim on forums. So I'm sharing plots direct from the clock manufacturer backing up my claims. Is that frowned upon?


 
 No that is not frowned upon - I'm no idiot (despite my last t-i-c comment) - I see the energy and enthusiasm of showing OP to be wrong.  You've been mia here - until OP shared some posts.
  
 Baiting Alex into another pissing match to blow up another of my popular threads *IS* frowned upon.  The last time you did the (AOIP) thread was locked down for a week, you where banned and most of your posts deleted.  The thread was almost closed.


----------



## Kelowna

I'm just clearing up some BS with facts that's all. And I was never banned from this forum. Here's another fact. the LM723 LDO is only rated at 2.5uV noise from 100hz to 10K. the PSRR is a decent 86dB, however it's only a 150mA LDO. So only useful for very low voltage applications. The $54 Belleson's have a noise rating of 1uV, PSSR throughout the entire audio bandwidth of -110dB, and can handle 2A current.


----------



## Kelowna

Ted Smith's take on external clocks. Skip to the 3:40 for the part about External clocks.


----------



## Kelowna

BTW. There's no soldering involved if you combine the Daitron HFS with this $29 voltage regulator block. All screw terminals. 
  
  
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/TPS7A4700-Ultralow-noise-4-VRMS-Power-Supply-1-4-20-5V-1A-for-Audio-DAC/252501322400?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140620091118%26meid%3Df6f36c5a1f0d4835a19feea4b553afac%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D252348749037&rmvSB=true
  
 And you you can set it to any voltage you want up to the voltage of the Daitron supply chosen. It's a variable voltage regulator. I don't think this is beyond the scope of skill for many who contribute to this thread based on some of the things I've read. 
  
 For folks who want a supply with multiple voltage outputs no problem. Just add more regulator boards and set each one to the voltage required. Or go with the dual board:
  
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/TPS7A4700-TPS7A3301-Ultralow-noise-4-16-VRMS-Dual-Polarity-Power-Supply/252533379379?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140620091118%26meid%3Dfb60d14dacff49e2b62339dbc7e45e31%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D252501322400
  
  
 You have 30W on tap from the Daitron DC output. As long as total current draw doesn't exceed that you're good to go. For example you can run 3 boards. 5/9/12v, all with 1 amp max current capability, and still have more then enough current on tap from with all 3 taps running at peak output at the same time! And still under $300 total cost!


----------



## carlmart

rb2013
  
 What about the sonic differences between the X1 XU-208 and the F-1 XU-208?
  
 What DAC are you linking these boards to? Through I2S?


----------



## Kelowna

Wow these Daitron supplies sure go through an exhaustive amount of testing! I've never seen this level of quality control and testing from an audiophile LPS before.The best part is a lot of these specs are very relevant for audio as well.  
  
 http://daitronglobal.com/products/power/list/hfs30/pdf/emc_hfs30.pdf
  
 https://daitronglobal.com/products/power/list/hfs30/pdf/electric_hfs30.pdf


----------



## FredA

kelowna said:


> I'm just clearing up some BS with facts that's all. And I was never banned from this forum. Here's another fact. the LM723 LDO is only rated at 2.5uV noise from 100hz to 10K. the PSRR is a decent 86dB, however it's only a 150mA LDO. So only useful for very low voltage applications. The $54 Belleson's have a noise rating of 1uV, PSSR throughout the entire audio bandwidth of -110dB, and can handle 2A current.




Some precisons: the wyrd use more tham one lm723 (in parallel, i assume), and is rated at 500ma. Plus, it's not fed from usb. It is fed from AC from its external supply. And powering the f-1 board with it, you get very good results, as long as the usb signal is cleaned up/isolated somehow upstream. I use an intona for cleaning the usb signal and ground.


----------



## Kelowna

freda said:


> Some precisons: the wyrd use more tham one lm723 (in parallel, i assume), and is rated at 500ma. Plus, it's not fed from usb. It is fed from AC from its external supply. And powering the f-1 board with it, you get very good results, as long as the usb signal is cleaned up/isolated somehow upstream. I use an intona for cleaning the usb signal and ground.




They must be talking about peak values because the rating on the datasheet is only 150mA, unless used in combination with external transistors. However I don't see any of these on the board:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/snvs765c/snvs765c.pdf



Edit I found the picture of the back. The voltage reg is the long chip on the back. The 2 black boxes that look like voltage regulators on the top are the transistors:

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/D44H-D.PDF



Also the end result will be 100% based on the supply feeding it. If you fed it with a 5v Daitron HFS, it would probably be wonderful. However my personal choice for a dedicated supply on a budget would be the $29 board I linked to with 1 amp current capability, and noise/PSRR rating from 10-100k rather than 100-10k. But still looks like a decent unit for $99 turnkey considering it's more than just a regulator board.


----------



## Kelowna

There's also a little voltage adjusting pot on the Daitron HFS supplies to adjust the voltage up to +- 5% to compensate for voltage drop from from the regulator bank. So you can use it to dial in the the exact minimum voltage required for the input of the regulator board.


----------



## Tboooe

rb2013 said:


> Gone for 2 days on the coast - this thread has been busy!  I tried the Mutec as a SPDIF reclocker on the F-1 and in direct comparison as a USB DDC.  A well fed F-1 was better (see my rankings).  The Mutec as reclocker on the f-1 SPDIF did improve tyhe SQ, but not as much as on the Rednet 3 - just to expensive to justify.  I also had the W4S Remedy - this did not help the F-1 as a SPDIF reclocker like it did with the Breeze SU-U8.  The F-1's SPDIF output is very good - when it's well fed on it's power side.  The enshewing of the typical Murata output transformer in favor of a FPGA makes a real difference.  The Rednet 3 uses the worse Pulse output transformers.


 
 Thank you for the reply.  So am I understanding you correctly...the F1 powered by a good source is better than Mutec 3+USB even with its reclocking feature?  If this is true I would love to sell my Mutec to free up some cash and get more audio goodies I've been considering.
  


rb2013 said:


> I had one of their 'Gold Boxes'  to feed my EVO - the low noise versions get very expensive.  North of $300.


 
 Agreed.  I got mine used on ebay for $100.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> I'm just clearing up some BS with facts that's all. And I was never banned from this forum. Here's another fact. the LM723 LDO is only rated at 2.5uV noise from 100hz to 10K. the PSRR is a decent 86dB, however it's only a 150mA LDO. So only useful for very low voltage applications. The $54 Belleson's have a noise rating of 1uV, PSSR throughout the entire audio bandwidth of -110dB, and can handle 2A current.


 

 I did not say this forum - I said my AOIP thread.  Don't re-write history.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Ted Smith's take on external clocks. Skip to the 3:40 for the part about External clocks.





 Why do bother to post this stuff here - none of the DDC's have ext Wclock inputs.  Why not post over on my Rednet AOIP thread?  It has a Wclock input.  Unless you were/are banned there...http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio
  
 Anyway - I could give a Schiit what some gray bearded test bench jockey says about OXCO ext Wclocks - I have heard with my own ears - the same ones that discovered the F-1 and started this thread (and the Rednet AOIP thread).  Ext Wclocks make a difinite difference.  On the AOIP thread - many, many others have had the same experience.
  
 Bet old gray beard thinks all cables are the same...


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> Why do bother to post this stuff here - none of the DDC's have ext Wclock inputs.  Why not post over on my Rednet AOIP thread?  It has a Wclock input.  Unless you were/are banned there...http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio
> 
> Anyway - I could give a Schiit what some gray bearded test bench jockey says about OXCO ext Wclocks - I have heard with my own ears - the same ones that discovered the F-1 and started this thread (and the Rednet AOIP thread).  Ext Wclocks make a difinite difference.  On the AOIP thread - many, many others have had the same experience.
> 
> Bet old gray beard thinks all cables are the same...




What was the phase noise of the internal clocks you compared the external clocks to? Without knowing that, it's not much of a revelation. It should be a given that a $1000+ external will outpreform a 39 cent crystal powered by a $2 SMPS.

I priced out the Ferex SMPS's in the Rednet 16 and they cost $1.80 a piece in quantities of 1000 pieces. Ripple noise is 150000uV RMS, (likely double P-P). So even if they use the world's finest LDO's the internal clocks aren't getting very clean power. Even with run of the mill clocks, ultra clean power is required to meet phase noise spec of the crystal.


----------



## rb2013

carlmart said:


> rb2013
> 
> What about the sonic differences between the X1 XU-208 and the F-1 XU-208?
> 
> What DAC are you linking these boards to? Through I2S?


 
 The X-1 is pretty good - but the F-1 is in another league.  Just more detail, a more holograhic sound stage, better dynamics, richer tone.
  
 Just SPDIF to my heavily modded DAC60 and APL NWO jr.
  


tboooe said:


> Thank you for the reply.  So am I understanding you correctly...the F1 powered by a good source is better than Mutec 3+USB even with its reclocking feature?  If this is true I would love to sell my Mutec to free up some cash and get more audio goodies I've been considering.
> 
> Agreed.  I got mine used on ebay for $100.


 
 Yes that was my direct experience.  The Mutec 3+ USB worked well as a AES/SPDIF reclocker on the Rednet 3.  But I have sold both.  As my new project is modding a BURL B2Bomber DAC with AOIP Dante built in.  No need for SPDIF/AES reclocker or ext Rednet boxes. 
  
 The results so far are outstanding...


----------



## Kelowna

@Rob

I would get your buddy Alex to send you some if his -112dBc @ 10hz phase noise Crystek 575's, to replace the clocks in the Rednet. Then ditch the $2 SMPS and replace with a Daitron/reg board combo and for under $400 I can assure you you'll be able to ditch the external clock and reclocker and still get better sound.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> What was the phase noise of the internal clocks you compared the external clocks to? Without knowing that, it's not much of a revelation. It should be a given that a $1000+ external will outpreform a 39 cent crystal powered by a $2 SMPS.
> 
> I priced out the Ferex SMPS's in the Rednet 16 and they cost $1.80 a piece in quantities of 1000 pieces. Ripple noise is 150000uV RMS, (likely double P-P). So even if they use the world's finest LDO's the internal clocks aren't getting very clean power. Even with run of the mill clocks, ultra clean power is required to meet phase noise spec of the crystal.


 

 Sorry my ears don't need or care about test bench measurements.
  
 Internal clocks were excellent XO's - the OXCO is orders of magnitude better then the best Crysteks.
  
 That is good info on the Rednet gear - yes they use cheap SMPS - no mystery solved there.  I agree most Pro Audio gear (like the Mutec MC-3+) use SMPS power supplies.

 The reason we have pulled the SMPS on the BURL B2B DAC and replaced it with a LPS.
  
 I really like the fact the new Antelope Liveclock has an ext DC power input...I used the older OCX which has a SMPS.
  
 But if you want to run test bench measurements against each other - if THAT'S what matters to you engineering types then:
  
 It not just phase noise  - but clock stability that matters.  XO's and TXCO's drift away from their ref freq over time:
  
 From the CCHD957 datasheet:
 Aging: +-3ppm first yr, +-1ppm/yr there after...
  
 OXCO (like the Abracon):
 Aging:  +-100ppb, +-.5ppb/yr there after.
  
 Oh as for Phase noise:
  
 957 @10Hz: -100dbc
 OXCO@ 10Hz: -120dbc
  
 So let's see a OXCO is orders of magintude more stable (both short term and long term) then the CCHD-957, but also has -20dbc less phase noise at 10Hz. 
 That's about 100 times less.
  
 Oh NOW my ears can hear the difference - since the test bench proves it!  Eureka


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> @Rob
> 
> I would get your buddy Alex to send you some if his -112dBc @ 10hz phase noise Crystek 575's, to replace the clocks in the Rednet. Then ditch the $2 SMPS and replace with a Daitron/reg board combo and for under $400 I can assure you you'll be able to ditch the external clock and reclocker and still get better sound.


 

 I guess you are to busy talking to listen - or read - what I just wrote.  I sold the Rednet.
  
 While you are fiddling around with your SD card reader and $1700 streamer...I already have a one box (well two if you count the ext LPS) AOIP solution...and I bet it blows away that stack of boxes you have.
  
 DAC/AOIP Ethernet - all in one tidy package!


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> Sorry my ears don't need or care about test bench measurements.
> 
> Internal clocks were excellent XO's - the OXCO is orders of magnitude better then the best Crysteks.
> 
> ...




The problem with your testing is you are comparing a much better clock in the external to crap clocks in the internal. There's no advantage to putting the clock in a seperate box, generating a PLL, sending over cable, then going into the DAC. Placing a clean crystal very close to the DAC chips will blow it out of the water. The guys who manufacturer the gear you like also know this. This is because they are engineers who know what matters. 

All of this talk of long term stability is meaningless. Because you don't have a solid reference of comparison. 

Perhaps you should talk to this guy:

https://by-rutgers.nl

Knowledge is not a handicap if it's accurate


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> I guess you are to busy talking to listen - or read - what I just wrote.  I sold the Rednet.
> 
> While you are fiddling around with your SD card reader and $1700 streamer...I already have a one box (well two if you count the ext LPS) AOIP solution...and I bet it blows away that stack of boxes you have.
> 
> DAC/AOIP Ethernet - all in one tidy package!




I wasn't aware we sold a $1700 streamer??


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> The problem with your testing is you are comparing a much better clock in the external to crap clocks in the internal. There's no advantage to putting the clock in a seperate box, generating a PLL, sending over cable, then going into the DAC. Placing a clean crystal very close to the DAC chips will blow it out of the water. The guys who manufacturer the gear you like also know this. This is because they are engineers who know what matters.
> 
> All of this talk of long term stability is meaningless. Because you don't have a solid reference of comparison.
> 
> ...


 

 No I just compared the Crystek CCHD-957 to a OXCO.
  
 Oh so clock stability does not matter in digital audio? Huh.  What is the basis of digital audio but clocking?  A ref clock is just that a reference.
  
 It's 24.576Mhz right - not 24.7 or 24.4.  So how important is clock freq stability?
  
 Well how about phase noise - just showed the OXCO to be 100 times lower...
  
 Here are some guys that know a little about audio clocks:
 https://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
  


> 2.1 Period Jitter Period jitter is the deviation in cycle time of a clock signal with respect to the ideal period over a number of randomly selected cycles. If we were given a number of individual clock periods, we can measure each one and calculate the average clock period as well as the standard deviation and the peak-to-peak value. The standard deviation and the peak-to-peak value are frequently referred to as the RMS value and the Pk-Pk period jitter, respectively. Many publications defined period jitter as the difference between a measured clock period and the ideal period. In real world applications, it is often difficult to quantify the ideal period. If we observe the output from an oscillator set to 100 MHz using an oscilloscope, the average measured clock period may be 9.998 nS instead of 10 nS. So it is usually more practical to treat the average period as the ideal period


 


> 2.1.2 Calculating Peak to Peak Jitter from RMS Jitter Because the period jitter from a clock is random in nature with Gaussian distribution, it can be completely expressed in terms of its Root Mean Square (RMS) value in pico-seconds (pS). However, the peak-to-peak value is more relevant in calculating setup and hold time budgets. To convert the RMS jitter to peak-to-peak (Pk-Pk) jitter for a sample size of 10,000, the reader can use the following equation: Peak-to-peak period jitter = 7.44 x (RMS jitter) Equation 1 For example, if the RMS jitter is 3 pS, the peak to peak jitter is ±11.16 pS. Equation 1 is derived from the Gaussian Probability Density Function (PDF) table. For instance, if the sample size is 100, 99 of those samples will fall within ±2.327σ from the mean value of the distribution, only 1 sample, on average, will fall outside that region. SiTime measures the RMS period jitter over a sample size of 10,000 as specified by the JEDEC standard. Sample Size Sigma (σ) 10 ±1.282 100 ±2.327 1,000 ±3.090 10,000 ±3.719 100,000 ±4.265 1,000,000 ±4.754 10,000,000 ±5.200 100,000,000 ±5.612 1,000,000,000 ±5.998 10,000,000,000 ±6.362 100,000,000,000 ±6.706 1,000,000,000,000 ±7.035 Table 1. Gaussian probability density function (PDF) 2.1.3 Period Jitter Measurement Methodology Period Jitter is defined in JEDEC Standard 65B as the deviation in cycle time of a signal with respect to the ideal period over a number of randomly selected cycles. The JEDEC standard further specified that period jitter should be measured over a sample of 10,000 cycles. SiTime recommends measuring period jitter using the following procedure: 1. Measure the duration (rising edge to rising edge) of one clock cycle 2. Wait a random number of clock cycles 3. Repeat the above steps 10,000 times 4. Compute the mean, standard deviation (σ), and the peak-to-peak values from the 10,000 samples -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Smart Timing Choice™ 4 SiT-AN10007 Rev 1.2 Clock Jitter Definitions and Measurement Methods 5. Repeat the above measurements 25 times. From the 25 sets of results, compute the average peak-to peak value. The standard deviation (σ) or RMS value computed from a measurement of 10,000 random samples (step 4) is quite accurate. The error in the RMS value can be calculated using the following equation: ErrorRMS N n 2 σ = Equation 2 where σn is the RMS (or sigma) of the collected sample and N is the sample size. For a sample size of 10,000, ErrorRMS is 0.0071σn. This error is random and it follows the Gaussian distribution. The worst-case measurement error is typically computed as ±3 ErrorRMS. For example, if the RMS value computed from 10,000 random samples is 10 pS, then the ErrorRMS will be 0.071 pS and virtually all the RMS values of this measurement will still fall within a narrow range of 10 ± 0.213 pS. In practical applications, the RMS errors in a sample set of 10,000 are small enough to be ignored. While an accurate RMS value can be computed from a random 10000-sample set, the peak-topeak value is more difficult to measure. Due to the random nature of period jitter, the larger the sample size, the higher is the probability of picking up data points at the far ends of the distribution curve. In other words, the peak-to-peak value diverges instead of converging as more samples are collected. That is the reason why we added an extra step, step 5 to produce a more consistent and repeatable peak-to-peak measurement. Each measurement of 10,000 random samples (step 4) produces one standard deviation value and one peak-to-peak value. By randomly repeating this process 25 times, we could collect a good set of data points from which we can calculate the average peak-to-peak value with a high degree of accuracy. We can also compute the average RMS value from this data, but it will be very close to the RMS value derived from each individual run. Figure 3 is the period jitter histogram of a 3.3V SiT8102 oscillator running at 125 MHz captured by a Wavecrest SIA-4000C. It represents one set of RMS and peak-to peak values measured from 10,000 samples (step 4)


 


> 2.3 Long-Term Jitter Long-term jitter measures the change in a clock’s output from the ideal position, over several consecutive cycles. The actual number of cycles used in the measurement is application dependent. Long-term jitter is different from period jitter and cycle-to-cycle jitter because it -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Smart Timing Choice™ 7 SiT-AN10007 Rev 1.2 Clock Jitter Definitions and Measurement Methods represents the cumulative effect of jitter on a continuous stream of clock cycles over a long time interval. That is why long-term jitter is sometimes referred to as the accumulated jitter. Longterm jitter is typically useful in graphics/video displays and long-range telemetry applications such as range finders. SiTime recommends measuring long-term jitter using the following method; in this example, we measure the long-term jitter over 10,000 clocks. 1. Measure the time interval of 10,000 consecutive clock cycles as shown in Figure 5 2. Wait a random number of clock cycles 3. Repeat the above steps 1,000 times 4. Compute the mean, standard deviation (σ), and the peak-to-peak values from the 1,000 samples 5. Repeat above measurements 25 times. From the 25 sets of results, compute the average peak-to peak value. Figure 5. Measuring a 10,000 clock-cycle time interval Once again, step 5 is needed to overcome the un-bounded nature of the peak to peak value.


 


> Time Interval Error (TIE) Time Interval Error (TIE) of an edge is the time deviation of that edge from its ideal position measured from a reference point. In effect, TIE is the discrete time domain representation of phase noise expressed in seconds or pico-seconds. Figure 7 illustrates the basic concept of TIE. The ideal signal is often a signal created in software from an average estimate of the signal period. Figure 7. Measuring the TIE of an edge 3.1 Plotting TIE over time A clock waveform is shown at the top of Figure 8. The red pulses are perfectly timed clock cycles exactly 1000 pS in duration. The pulses in black are clock cycles with jitter. The trailing edges of these clock pulses have been removed to enhance the presentation. At the beginning of the sequence, both the red and black clocks are aligned to each other. Because of the jitter, the black clock edges will start shifting in time, sometimes occurring before the red clock edge and sometimes after. The plot labeled “Clock Period” represents the measured black clock periods over time. In this example, the black clock periods are either 990 pS or 1010 pS. The “Period Change” plot depicts each cycle’s change from the previous cycle. This graph remains flat as long as the period between two consecutive black clocks stays the same. However, it will register a change whenever a period difference is detected. For example, the period of the first 4 clock cycles are constant at 990 pS, so the “Period Change” plot is flat; but when the period of the fifth clock is lengthened from 990 pS to 1010 pS, the plot reports this change by jumping to the +20 pS position. In other words, this plot identifies the period changes shown in the “Clock Period” plot. T1 T2 Reference Edge Ideal Location of the edge TIE = T2 – T1 Actual Location of the edge Ideal Signal Actual Signal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Smart Timing Choice™ 10 SiT-AN10007 Rev 1.2 Clock Jitter Definitions and Measurement Methods The “Time Interval Error” (TIE) plot documents the accumulated error between the ideal edge (red clock) and the actual edge (black clock). In this example, the TIE plot begins by moving towards the negative direction because the first 4 clocks are each 10 ns shorter than the ideal period. After accumulating -40 pS in jitter error, the plot changes direction at the fifth clock and heads towards the positive direction because the fifth clock period is 10 pS longer than the ideal period. TIE measurements are especially useful when examining the behavior of transmitted data streams, where the reference clock is typically recovered from the data signal using a Clock/Data Recovery (CDR) circuit. A large TIE value may indicate that the PLL in the CDR is too slow in responding to the data stream’s changing bit rate. Figure 8. Time interval error (TIE) plot


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> No I just compared the Crystek CCHD-957 to a OXCO.
> 
> Oh so clock stability does not matter in computer audio? Huh.  What is the basis of computer audio but clocking?  A ref clock is just that a reference.
> 
> ...




Describe the DAC setup with the Crystek 957. 

1: Did you have the clocks measured to confirm phase noise?

2: What was the noise level of the supply powering it?

3: Were there line drivers/ buffers used for LRCLK,Bclk and Mclk? 

4: What was the digital interface used?

5: How is the clocking scheme implemented in the digital interface FPGA? 

6: Does the digital interface FPGA use internal line drivers or external?

7: How long are the clock traces on the PCB?

8: Were there any connections in the clock traces, or PCB stubs?


I suppose that's a good start. However many more variables after those questions are answered


----------



## rb2013

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter
  


> An _ideal_ DAC converts the abstract numbers into a conceptual sequence of impulses that are then processed by a reconstruction filter using some form of interpolation to fill in data between the impulses. A conventional _practical_ DAC converts the numbers into a piecewise constant functionmade up of a sequence of rectangular functions that is modeled with the zero-order hold. Other DAC methods such as those based on delta-sigma modulation) produce a pulse-density modulated output that can be similarly filtered to produce a smoothly varying signal.


 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_function


> In mathematics, a function on the real numbers is called a *step function* (or *staircase function*) if it can be written as a finite linear combination of indicator functions of intervals. Informally speaking, a step function is a piecewise constant function having only finitely many pieces.


 


 Any deviation in clocking from the expected reference produces time domain anomalies - these present as time period jitter distortions.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> Describe the DAC setup with the Crystek 957.
> 
> 1: Did you have the clocks measured to confirm phase noise?
> 
> ...


 

 I have some advice - move slowly away from your test bench and sit in a comforable chair  - turn on some familar music - relax and listen...
  
 You know most of the more successful audio companies have excellent listening rooms to evaluate gear - might wanna try that - you may actually survive as an audio company by doing so.


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_function
> 
> ...




The clock and DAC engineers I know can answer my above questions in a clear concise manner. They don't need to copy and paste from Wikipedia


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> The clock and DAC engineers I know can answer my above questions in a clear concise manner.


 

 My previous advice would apply to them as well...I am not an Engineer (thank god) just a very experienced audiophile. 
  
 I can see why you have been banned all over the place...this is not an Engineering forum...but a audio users forum...
  
 If I had to use folks like you for audio advice - I'd take up golf.


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> I have some advice - move slowly away from your test bench and sit in a comforable chair  - turn on some familar music - relax and listen...
> 
> You know most of the more successful audio companies have excellent listening rooms to evaluate gear - might wanna try that - you may actually survive as an audio company by doing so.




You obviously don't realize that you have to know how to make the good sounding products first before sitting back in the chair. You quote numbers all the time yet have no idea what they mean. None of the engineers who make the products you like would agree with anything you have to say.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> You obviously don't realize that you have to know how to make the good sounding products first before sitting back in the chair. You quote numbers all the time yet have no idea what they mean. None of the engineers who make the products you like would agree with anything you have to say.


 

 OK - so now you are going to tell me what I know and don't know.  Then have the temerity to speak for all audio engineers...including the Focusrite engineers who made the Rednet gear you just criticized as having $2 power supplies.
  
 Wow dude - I have one comment - delusional.


----------



## Kelowna

rb2013 said:


> OK - so now you are going to tell me what I know and don't know.  Then have the temerity to speak for all audio engineers...including the Focusrite engineers who made the Rednet gear you just criticized as having $2 power supplies.
> 
> Wow dude - I have one comment - delusional.




The fact that Focusrite made such a great sounding product with that $2 SMPS is a huge kudo's to them if anything. 

If you don't like technical data, stop quoting it all the time. Quit pretending you know far more than you do. All it results in is folks spending far more money than they would need to by doing things right from the beginning. A 5 minute chat with a real engineer would trump all the revelations made in this thread.


----------



## rb2013

kelowna said:


> The fact that Focusrite made such a great sounding product with that $2 SMPS is a huge kudo's to them if anything.
> 
> If you don't like technical data, stop quoting it all the time. Quit pretending you know far more than you do. All it results in is folks spending far more money than they would need to by doing things right from the beginning. A 5 minute chat with a real engineer would trump all the revelations made in this thread.


 

 Ok here we go - you come over to the thread I started - to tell me what I can and can't post.
  
 Who died and made you audio king?
  
 If you don't like this thread why don't you just move on to another...before you get this one blocked like you did on my other AOIP thread...
  
 You are roving thread destroyer...nice job on that CA thread by the way...making friends and influencing people.  Ever think of Politics...I see CC is a Huuuge fan.


----------



## occamsrazor

Gents... I do agree recent posts have gone off topic. Not that a discussion about various power supplies and their technical aspects and associated charts isn't interesting and relevant on this forum.
But this is a thread specifically about XMOS-based USB bridges. Therefore suggest comments stick to them. It's quite easy to create a new topic to discuss power supplies...


----------



## mordicai

This level of hostility is better suited to PM's. People reading this forum are not interested in this nastiest.


----------



## Kelowna

Sorry guys. Ignorance is bliss. Back to the regular scheduled programming. Have the mods delete my posts.


----------



## RickyV

Yes, stop this bs and get on with this thread.


----------



## RickyV

Do not try to improve rb, improve the F1.


----------



## soundquest

This is all an unfortunate distraction. I don't speak for others, but I imagine a few points below might reflect their thoughts, too. 
  
 I'm MOST interested in reasonably affordable, reasonably simple and fantastic sounding audio gear. I'm on a quest to get close to the sound, vibe and soul of the writers and performers who were INSPIRED to put their hearts into words and music. That's it! I want to be moved to play air guitar, resonate with the songs and only wish that I'd written some of them. 
  
 Most audiophiles have a very limited comprehension of MOST audiophile terminology and subsequent debates. Remember the glorious days of unwrapping a fresh vinyl release and sitting and listening to a new release? How many parts were involved? Answer: A piece of vinyl, a cartridge, a turntable and a phono stage (or more likely a COMPLETE receiver) and speakers. Audiophiles are killing their own ambitions by making all of this too complicated, too erudite and full of endless diatribes and squabbles. It's an absolute turn off to those seeking the truth in audio and music. 
  
 What we all need is far less ******** and more clear clean simple answers. Who wants to invest in 12 pieces of gear to make "The Source" sound great? Each piece of individual gear requires power (which introduces noise) and a cable (which CANNOT improve sound quality) and possibly more software. How does all this help in the end?
  
 Rb2013, I sincerely appreciate what you've brought to the table. And, you are likely on the forefront of a great revolution in AOIP and audio quality. It would be fantastic to steer clear of taking and responding to jibes from someone who has managed to be banned from multiple forums. Be above it; or, at least, outside it. 
  
 Let's get back on track. 
  
 Thank you.


----------



## rb2013

soundquest said:


> This is all an unfortunate distraction. I don't speak for others, but I imagine a few points below might reflect their thoughts, too.
> 
> I'm MOST interested in reasonably affordable, reasonably simple and fantastic sounding audio gear. I'm on a quest to get close to the sound, vibe and soul of the writers and performers who were INSPIRED to put their hearts into words and music. That's it! I want to be moved to play air guitar, resonate with the songs and only wish that I'd written some of them.
> 
> ...


Well said, although I disagree on the cable comment - vigorously...

That aside, audio is a extremely enjoyable hobby for us. But for others it's a tough business. Money and income at risk. I appreciate knowledgeable industry folks commenting. But this episode of serial posts all in a manner of a day on a whole range of subjects, some far removed from anything to do with this thread, is well...quite bizzare.

The sad part is there is some interesting information nuggets there.

I think a power supply thread is a great idea, in my experience power supplies with the f-1 make a major difference.

Cheers


----------



## rb2013

rickyv said:


> Do not try to improve rb, improve the F1.




Rb is perfect just as he is...Lol


----------



## Kelowna

Probably at least 60% of this thread is dedicated to the topic of power supplies, LDO's and clocking. I'm not sure why it's off topic when someone shares information pertaining to the primary discussions in this thread, when is backed up with supporting data. I suppose if the data is too concrete it's frowned upon. If it's more along the lines of hearsay, and bogus claims it get's a thumbs up. And of course if it's something that can be backed up with supporting logic and data, it must sound bad. Because you must choose either good sound, or good technical merit's. There's no such thing as both. And heaven forbid if there's an engineer (bench jockey) involved in the process of building the product you enjoy. Because we all know the best audio gear is designed by fairies and unicorns


----------



## Guidostrunk

Has anyone seen this version? Looks similar to the F-1, with more outputs, and a better price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/122420183602


----------



## Maxx134 (May 7, 2017)

Guidostrunk said:


> Has anyone seen this version? Looks similar to the F-1, with more outputs, and a better price.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/122420183602



That one is **same** processor power as the F1.
Looks good to have more outputs as well.

I also have a unit that is slightly more powerful processor than the F1.
It is the DXIO Pro*3Z *(not Pro3a). 

I did hear an improvement with F1,  so I would believe this one you found also a good bet.
Only issue is same issue of needing to get a box,  so maybe look for a unit already  finished


----------



## Guidostrunk

Thanks! 
Cheers


Maxx134 said:


> That one is more processor power than the F1.
> Looks good to have more outputs as well.
> 
> I also have a unit that is same more powerful processor than the F1.
> ...


----------



## Maxx134 (May 7, 2017)

Guidostrunk said:


> Thanks!
> Cheers



Correction,  that unit  using same chip as the F1.

The DXIO Pro3Z uses a slightly  better chip.
I had the F1 and did  noticed  slight  improvement when I upgraded to the Pro3z. 

Both of them did better with cleaner USB input so feed them with a "Regen"  or similar item.


----------



## Guidostrunk (May 7, 2017)

So... My previous post regarding a "new" xu208, appears to be an SU-1 board , without the power supply, but also appears to have the Kitsune cap mod in pic 1. All for $100 shipped
Just ordered one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/122420183602


----------



## rafabro (May 8, 2017)

What you talking about? What kitsune mod???
 Kitsune used Nichicon Fine Gold caps which are quite ok, but this picture shows Nichicon Muse - the worst, dry and sharp sounding caps...
The I2S is provided by Ethernet port instead of hdmi.
Also, this board use some chip clocks (oscilators) - Singxer used very good Crystek Clocks...

It is nothing to compare to oryginal Sigxer SU-1 or moded by kitsune version...


----------



## Guidostrunk

Slow down bro. Lol.
My post is a general observation. Notice how I said it "appears" 2 times. There's nothing definitive about my statement. All I have is 2 pics for comparison, and some things look similar. 
So before you pop an artery , re-read my post and chill tfo. 
Now maybe someone else can chime in with a little less stress in their lives to educate me on what I don't know about either.  Regardless of the fact, I purchased the ebay unit for comparison to the F-1. 





rafabro said:


> What you talking about? What kitsune mod???
> Kitsune used Nichicon Fine Gold caps which are quite ok, but this picture shows Nichicon Muse - the worst, dry and sharp sounding caps...
> The I2S is provided by Ethernet port instead of hdmi.
> Also, this board use some chip clocks (oscilators) - Singxer used very good Crystek Clocks...
> ...


----------



## rafabro

As I said pcb is just similar..


----------



## Guidostrunk

Now that's better. What can you tell me about the new board out? I don't know anything about  clocks,caps, and chips. I had an x-1, and have a f-1, which sound fantastic. I'm curious to see where this one stands. Do you think it can compete? 





rafabro said:


> As I said pcb is just similar..


----------



## rafabro

Quality of clocks affecting jitter. Jitter affecting sound quality, sound stage etc.

Nichicon Muse, example; same used in Gustard X20 as standard capacitor mostly responsible for bit sharp presentation. If you have some experience with soldiering gun you can replace them..

No power supply. SQ depends from PSU quality mostly.

Based on that I can assume that wont be so good as Singxer as just cant be. But you could do some modifications to improve SQ a bit. Price is just great.
As you are F-1 owner, I can't see a reason to buy this thing.


----------



## macan

this is interesting! what does SU-1 do ? usb input, multiple digital output to DAC ?


----------



## rafabro

Yes, it translate bits to pcm/dsd stream (by I2S) which is understandably for DAC chip.


----------



## jaaptina

Guidostrunk said:


> Now that's better. What can you tell me about the new board out? I don't know anything about  clocks,caps, and chips. I had an x-1, and have a f-1, which sound fantastic. I'm curious to see where this one stands. Do you think it can compete?



Hello, any news on this new XU208? Just today I received a 2nd hand Melodious Audio MX-U8 USB converter. It sounds so nice I'm already thinking of upgrading. I'd like a usb-spdif converter on usb-power better.


----------



## rafabro

What news you expecting?


----------



## jaaptina

How it sounds, how it compares with F1 etc. after having it delivered ☺️


----------



## jaaptina

Guidostrunk said:


> Just ordered one
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/122420183602


This one I meant.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Sorry folks for the late reply. This site is giving me fits. Hopefully this post makes it before the app shuts down again. I'm not getting alerts or anything.

I would not recommend that board at this point. I've already sent my first one back because it was doa. The second one should be here hopefully this week. I'll update this thread once I have it. 

Cheers


----------



## music_man (Jun 16, 2017)

i wanted the psa lanrover. psa tech told me it has issues with both win 10 and jriver22, the combination may not work at all. does anyone have that running? otherwise is there another device you would recommend? startech is the same thing and i already know it is a huge pita to use it.

btw, i have not been here because the site is horrid!

oh, i hope this is not the wrong thread. i had it running on win8, sold it. afraid of $600 to try it out since startech has big issues. at least i already have the lps-1 for it.


----------



## Kimschips

Guidostrunk said:


> Has anyone seen this version? Looks similar to the F-1, with more outputs, and a better price.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/122420183602


Hello i am thinking buying this unit especially because you can add your own high quality PSU.
Have any of you tested this unit with example Jriver?
Thx


----------



## StrikeFreedom

I just had chanced to listen Weiliang ES9018 with Weiliang XU208 with Crystek CCHD-575 (Unluckily, its 24Mhz oscillator is SCTF) and Leaf Audio Amanero Combo384 with 3 JYEC TCXO. I got second version of Combo384 though. 
The first version DSDOE pin is around USB connector and has 5 pin I2S connector
Second version it's became 6 pin I2S connector DSDOE pin was added under DATA pin.
Third version using 12 pin I2S connector.

Combo384 sound more transparent, thin, and wide but lack dynamic while XU208 are more dynamic, thick, and narrow. Combo384 are more laid back to listen but some would found boring. I prefer Combo384 though.


----------



## Padawan38

Hello,

RB and/or others, can you please tell the latest USB bridge ranking ?
In advance, thank you very much

Rgds
Philippe


----------



## seeteeyou

> So for any new viewers here is my 'Epitome' USB chain:
> 
> PC>Startech (GB LAN Ethernet USB extender)>W4S Recovery>iDefender>iPur2>Singxer F-1
> 
> ...





> OK to update the 'List' and rankings to reflect the new 'Epitome' USB chain:
> 
> Here would be my current ratings and rankings (the numbers are just a relative number - they are not percentages). The Breeze Audio (Talema) DU-U8 = 100
> 
> ...





> PC(WIN10 on ext SSD powered by LT3045/LPS)>JB(modded to VBUS blocker)>LH Labs 2G (data leg to JB/PC - power to LT3045)>LEX(powered by LT3045/LPS)>BJC CAT6a>REX(powered by LPS)>JB(modded to VBUS blocker)>2G(data leg only)>RuR(powered by LT3045/LPS)>iDefender>iPur2>F-1.
> 
> Important: Music files played from SLC mSD card (USB 3.0 adapter) in the REX or 256GB USB sticks.
> 
> ...


----------



## project86

I've got the new Matrix X-SPDIF 2 in house now, and it's an improvement over the Singxer SU-1. It's (surprisingly) competitive when using USB power (cleaner sources work better), and superior when running a linear power supply. I'm feeding it from a basic Surface Pro 3 using the BMC PureUSB active cable, and it's at least on par with the Singxer despite the lack of external power. Using a regular USB cable instead of the BMC takes it down a notch, though still not far behind the SU-1. 

With a nice PSU in play - the Wyred 4 Sound PS-1, or the new Keces P8 which I'll post about soon - it's a step up from anything I've heard, including the Berkeley Alpha and the Singxer. I wouldn't call it a super-obvious upgrade but I'm not really prone to use those terms anyway. I still love the SU-1 but will be recommending the Matrix from now on.

I started a thread HERE as well. Pics coming shortly.


----------



## project86

Sorry for the poor pic, but here's a shot of the X-SPDIF 2 in action:


----------



## fabien44 (Aug 4, 2017)

Hello,

i am to choose my USB->I2S interface. I will use a DIY LPS to power in.

My shortlist:
*- Singxer F-1
- Singxer C-1 FEMTO version* (i guess same as F-1 without output isolation)
https://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxer-c1-as318b/
*- DIYINHK Isolated XMOS 768kHz DXD DSD512*
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-k...12dsd1024-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html

From your experience, which one offers the best Q/P and best SQ?

Thanks


----------



## drez

F-1 appeals to me the most as it can be powered from USB, or else modified to be powered from external 5.5V input, and has reclocking after the isolation.  I'm not sure how the DIYINHK works - i mean maybe the clocks and output are isolated, but kind of seems like that would be adding the jitter from the isolation twice and kind of defeat the purpose to me.  I probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

C-1 had nice clocks - I think NDK's like the DIYINHK, and is nice and compact.  I guess it depends how much room you have.  F-1 also has an already well established reputation.

I can't speak from reputation, I still need to implement my card, and replace some new ceramic caps that I burnt, but I kind of dread the SMD work.  May as well not waste it though, as well as the hundreds of hours I put into designing the PSU, bracket, cabling etc.


----------



## project86

fabien44 said:


> Hello,
> 
> i am to choose my USB->I2S interface. I will use a DIY LPS to power in.
> 
> ...



I have the Singxer SU-1 and the F1. The difference is pretty clear before you add aftermarket or DIY power to the F1. It's still nice though. The Matrix X-SPDIF 2 is better than both, and gets even better when used with a nice PSU. The F1 with DIY PSU is a great value though.


----------



## fabien44

project86 said:


> The Matrix X-SPDIF 2 is better than both, and gets even better when used with a nice PSU. The F1 with DIY PSU is a great value though.


Thanks.
I build a Streamer DIY box, interesting the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 but It only exists in box or a DIY card is available?


----------



## project86

Only with the enclosure as far as I've seen. Singxer is one of the few who seems to embrace multiple variations of their product at difference price points.


----------



## fabien44

So Matrix is not for me as well as its price is more expensive.
Still F-1/C-1 against DIYINHK


----------



## jaaptina

Hi, Using a microRendu streamer I've compared an Singxer F-1/coax input with USB input on my Job INTegrated amp. With this amp I'll stick with USB. So I got a Singxer F-1 available. Located in the EU. PM me if interested.


----------



## carlmart

fabien44 said:


> So Matrix is not for me as well as its price is more expensive.
> Still F-1/C-1 against DIYINHK



Also willing to see this comparison. 

The F1 also has isolated I2S output as the DIYINHK. With clocks too.


----------



## shadowlord

I'm looking for a compareable device to a singxer X 1 ( price and performance ) but with toslink output ?
preferably bus powered.


----------



## VilMo

Probably this is it: http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-k...noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


----------



## StrikeFreedom

VilMo said:


> Probably this is it: http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-k...noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


Might better than singxer as it using XU216


----------



## phile1

shadowlord said:


> I'm looking for a compareable device to a singxer X 1 ( price and performance ) but with toslink output ?
> preferably bus powered.


Hi,
Did you find the interface you were looking for, with toslink output ?

Last month, Weilang launched the new version of the Breeze U8, V.2.1, withe XU208 xmos chip (much cheaper than the Singxer F1 & SU-1).
Did someone try this new version of the Breeze ? Better SQ than the 1st version of the Breeze ?
Thnks
Rgds


----------



## Zowie1 (Nov 12, 2017)

Just bought the Singxer F-1 for using with my Marantz HD-Dac01, haven't received it yet. Any recommendations for USB- and coax-cables for my setup? The guy selling the Singxer was willing to build me a coax Neotech rca-rca cable for 35 euros. Is it worth it to spend a lot on these cables or will the cheaper ones do the trick also?

Edit. I already bought the cables.


----------



## Jazz.Khan

Hi guys,
First time post. I read many pages of this great thread and bought a F-1. I have a quick question and wondering if someobe can help me out.

I received the card and it came up with a connector pin. Do I need to connect it? I will be using F-1 for tidal going to my pre/pro. So no dsd playback is required.


----------



## jozefs

kitsunehifi wrote on page........

*NEW 2017 firmware (2.22 and 2.20) for DSD512 native is for customers only and by email request only. This will support the newest OS for Sonore Urendu @ full dsd512 native!*

I bought SINGXER SU-1 from not kitsunehifi page, but I need this firmware too. If anyone have it, write me PM...Thank You


----------



## Zowie1

Would adding iFi Nano iUSB3.0 to the chain with my Marantz-HD-Dac01 and Singxer F-1 make any noticeable difference in the sound quality?


----------



## Jazz.Khan

Guys anyone know where I can download the driver for F-1? I am getting run around from the ebay seller. i would greatly appreciate your help.


----------



## Maxx134 (Nov 16, 2017)

shadowlord said:


> I'm looking for a compareable device to a singxer X 1 ( price and performance ) but with toslink output ?
> preferably bus powered.


GET THE DXIO PRO3Z:


VilMo said:


> Probably this is it: http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-k...noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html





StrikeFreedom said:


> Might better than singxer as it using XU216


I sold my F1 after and yes the PRO3Z is a bit but noticably better .



phile1 said:


> ..
> Last month, Weilang launched the new version of the Breeze U8, V.2.1, with XU208 xmos chip (much cheaper than the Singxer F1 & SU-1).
> Did someone try this new version of the Breeze ? Better SQ than the 1st version of the Breeze ?
> Thnks
> Rgds


If true then it should be just as good and a great buy.
Yet the DXIO PRO3Z still has the better XU216 chip with optional power source selectable:








Zowie1 said:


> Would adding iFi Nano iUSB3.0 to the chain with my Marantz-HD-Dac01 and Singxer F-1 make any noticeable difference in the sound quality?


Yes I used a similar setup , using an IFI power adapter into a Regen to feed the F1 and it did improve it .
So optional power source did improve but the F1 need it to be fed into it's USB,
While the PRO3Z has an optional power input socket and switch selectable,
So it is just a better unit.


----------



## superuser1

phile1 said:


> Hi,
> Did you find the interface you were looking for, with toslink output ?
> 
> Last month, Weilang launched the new version of the Breeze U8, V.2.1, withe XU208 xmos chip (much cheaper than the Singxer F1 & SU-1).
> ...


I ordered it during the sale. Will report back as and when i get it.


----------



## phile1

Great ! Thanks Superuser1 !


----------



## jcn3 (Nov 18, 2017)

Jazz.Khan said:


> Guys anyone know where I can download the driver for F-1? I am getting run around from the ebay seller. i would greatly appreciate your help.


Go to the Shenzhen Audio site - there's a link there


----------



## Jazz.Khan

jcn3 said:


> Go to the Shenzhen Audio site - there's a link there


Thanks man. Seller just sent me the latest drivers. version 4.13. works great on windows 10 so far.


----------



## Jazz.Khan

Hey Guys,
I installed the driver and device worked fine, then starting sunday it would lose the audio randomly. interface will show up in windows sound, but no audio at all, so I restarted and and works then same issue couple of minutes later, restart no audio, unplugged and plugged and started working again. This was on window 7 so I thought maybe its OS updated to windows 10 worked fine for couple of hours then same issue. Uninstall and reinstall couple of times and now it just show up for a minute then disappear I either get last device malfunction error or windows installs generic usb 2 drivers then it works for couple of minsutes and boom gone from windows. Installing xmoss drivers have no impact. tried two different USB cables and all usb ports. I have behringer UC202 and HRT streamer II that work without any issues. I contacted the ebay seller but haven't received any response yet. Any ideas what could be wrong?


----------



## Zowie1

I'm thinking of buying iFi Nano iUSB3.0 to use with my F-1 and Marantz HD-DAC01. However, all my USB-plugs in my laptop are 2.0. Would using 2.0 connections instead of 3.0 affect the sound quality?


----------



## VilMo

I have used exactly the same setup with a laptop that has both USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 ports and could not discern any difference between the port types.


----------



## Zowie1

VilMo said:


> I have used exactly the same setup with a laptop that has both USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 ports and could not discern any difference between the port types.



Thanks, this helped a lot. I thought the the 3.0 might make a difference but I'm happy I got this clarified. Now I'll just wait for the next day payday!


----------



## jcn3

what are you using for a player and what are your sound settings in windows?  do you have the sound settings set to exclusive mode?


----------



## Zowie1

jcn3 said:


> what are you using for a player and what are your sound settings in windows?  do you have the sound settings set to exclusive mode?



I'm using iTunes, most of my music is in Apple lossless format and yes, I'm using exclusive mode.


----------



## phile1

How do you set exclusive mode in Win10 ?
thks


----------



## shadowlord

phile1 said:


> Hi,
> Did you find the interface you were looking for, with toslink output ?
> 
> Last month, Weilang launched the new version of the Breeze U8, V.2.1, withe XU208 xmos chip (much cheaper than the Singxer F1 & SU-1).
> ...



sorry, but no.

i bought a new dac with usb input.


----------



## Jazz.Khan

phile1 said:


> How do you set exclusive mode in Win10 ?
> thks



you dont. Your application either supports it or not. For example foobar and TIDAL supports WASAPI in exclusive mode while Itune use wasapi in share mode.


----------



## jcn3

Jazz.Khan said:


> you dont. Your application either supports it or not. For example foobar and TIDAL supports WASAPI in exclusive mode while Itune use wasapi in share mode.



while true, it's not exactly complete.  to be able to select exclusive control, you need to allow it in win10.  go control panel > sound > select your device > properties > advanced > select "allow applications to take exclusive control . . . "


----------



## stoutblock

phile1 said:


> Hi,
> Did you find the interface you were looking for, with toslink output ?
> 
> Last month, Weilang launched the new version of the Breeze U8, V.2.1, withe XU208 xmos chip (much cheaper than the Singxer F1 & SU-1).
> ...



I just picked up one of these.  Probably the first in the US?  My Modwright Elyse uses the PCM1794 chip so does not have an i2s input so I'm using the SPDIF.  I don't listen to DSD files so no big deal.  The bridge seems to work perfect with the xCore Wasapi drivers automatically loaded by windows 10.  The Elyse has an internal Optoma NuForce USB board which works pretty darn well but is a little dated.  The new XMOS brings out more detail, space between sources with no edginess or brittleness at all.  Really compliments the extreme musical quality of the Elyse DAC well.  The price with a decent PS for this bridge is silly cheap!


----------



## phile1

Hi stoutblock,
you compare this XU208 Breeze with the U8 Breeze ?
Which interface did you have before ?

FIY, modding this Breeze is straightfoward (I does it on the U8 version) and brings the SQ far far above what the stock version can offer
Rgds


----------



## stoutblock

phile1 said:


> Hi stoutblock,
> you compare this XU208 Breeze with the U8 Breeze ?
> Which interface did you have before ?
> 
> ...



No this is the first Breeze product I have owned.  The only previous USB bridge I have tried is the Audio-gd DI-U8 which also performed well but not significant enough to add another component to the system.  Recent DACs I’ve owned include the Audio-gd ref 5.32 with Amanero combo 384, Audio-gd master 7 with USB32.  Both great DACs and USB interface but they were beat by the Modwright Elyse.  I simply enjoy listening to music played through the Elyse more than the other DACs I’ve tried.  The Elyse combined with the Breeze XU208 is quite exceptional.

I would be very interested in the mods for the Breeze XU208!  Where do I find the specifics?


----------



## phile1

Hi Stoutblock,
The AudioGD DI-U8 was said to be a very good interface. If the Breeze XU208 is better than the DI-U8, that's pretty cool !

Modifying the Breeze :
I haven't seen info about Breeze mods, thus I tried some basics mods by myself. I'm a noob in electronics, so this could be done in a smarter way.
The idea is that its internal PS & especially the regulators that power :
1. the main board in 5V
2. the clocks in 3.3V
are not good.

So, I tested DIY PS to power externaly these parts.
This is photos of my Breeze DU-U8 & the way I power it : the board with 5V, & the 3 clocks with 3.3V
=> view from above : https://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/99925520170121223952.jpg
=> view from below : https://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/71951620170121203203txt.jpg

My laptop is my source. This is the layout of the DIY power supplies I tested, to power the different parts : 
1. Corning 3.Optical : 10m usb cable from PC to hifi setup
2. W4S Recovery : well known very good USB "cleaner"
3. Breeze : main board 5V & clocks 3.3V
=> layout is there (hope it's clear...) : https://www.dropbox.com/s/nf593b1ko6t99u0/2017 12 06 - Layout external PS.pdf?dl=0

FIY this is the thread on a French forum where I posted the last mods of my DIY PS & results on SQ => http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-380-post-121867.html#pid121867
I haven't finished testing of these PS on the Breeze, I'll keep posting on this FR forum my results. When it is more or less done, I'll make a review of all this in a ENG forum to make it clearer (hope Google translate is fine !).

The thing is that the Breeze XU208 looks pretty the same as the DU-U8. Except the implementation of the XU208 chip, the way the board is powered & the clocks are powered looks the same. 
Thus if the XU208 Breeze sounds better than ths DU-U8, I think that implementation of external PS like I did is easy, leading to a very very different SQ from the stock version.

By the way Stoutblock, do you use a W4S Recovery or another USB "cleaner" ? If not, you should.
Rgds


----------



## Jazz.Khan

Hi where did you buy breeze xu208 from? I had to return my F1 because of the issues I was having.


----------



## stoutblock

Jazz.Khan said:


> Hi where did you buy breeze xu208 from? I had to return my F1 because of the issues I was having.



AliExpress as per the link I used above.


----------



## stoutblock (Dec 11, 2017)

phile1 said:


> Hi Stoutblock,
> The AudioGD DI-U8 was said to be a very good interface. If the Breeze XU208 is better than the DI-U8, that's pretty cool !
> 
> Modifying the Breeze :
> ...



Very interesting.  I am a firm believer in the significance in the PS in all audio components including digital components (one of the big reasons I own so many Modwright components).

I have not tried the W4S Recovery but I did try the Regen in my setup a few years back.  If it made a difference, I could not hear it in my system.  I’m not saying they don’t work or don’t make an improvement, I’m just saying I could not hear it in my system at the time.   Back then I had the Master 7 with the DI-U8 and quite honestly I could not hear a difference with and without the Regen.  Maybe my current setup would benefit with a Regen or similar product?

I also know there are opportunities in what you use to process the digital files.  Right now I am using a dedicated ASUS EeePC with Atom processor, 2 GB RAM and 1TB SSD Running Windows 10 and JRiver.  Cables are Neutral USB (blue) and Avanti Chaz RCA.  It actually works great!


----------



## phile1

Jazz.Khan said:


> Hi where did you buy breeze xu208 from? I had to return my F1 because of the issues I was having.


I'll buy mine (silver version) from the manufacturer, here => https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Bre...chronous-USB-coax-fiber-XMOS/32499738639.html


----------



## phile1

stoutblock said:


> I have not tried the W4S Recovery but I did try the Regen in my setup a few years back.  If it made a difference, I could not hear it in my system.  I’m not saying they don’t work or don’t make an improvement, I’m just saying I could not hear it in my system at the time.   Back then I had the Master 7 with the DI-U8 and quite honestly I could not hear a difference with and without the Regen.  Maybe my current setup would benefit with a Regen or similar product?


If you want to try the Recovery, note that it should be powered with a external linear PS (its wall wart PS is crap, difference is huge when powered with a linear PS).
I've never had Audio-GD products, they are told to be really good.

"Master 7", it reminds me something => FYI, please look at the signature of Roberto on this forum => http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-974-post-125598.html#pid125598
He's a 100% reliable guy, he's got a Master 7... and he's got a Recovery upstream (powered with I don't know which good PS... not the wall wart for sure, he can tell you which one ; Recovery needs a 9V PS).
A nice upgrade for you I think !
Rgds


----------



## Jazz.Khan

It looks good but don't have same clocks as F1. Looks more comparable to x1. How much it will effect the sound?


----------



## phile1

Hi Jazz.Khan,
The key point is the way is design & above all : powered. The Breeze has a rather nice linear PS & regulators, fine for me.
The Breeze (silver) has TXCO clocks, good enough.
I like the Breeze design because the PCB is quite "clear", spacy, not too "compact" to enable soldering, so you can mod it. 
Like I described before, you can play with it, acting on the power of the card, the power of the clocks, leading to a complete new Breeze (night & day / SQ). I could have replace the TCXO clock of my Breeze U8, but a few months I did replace clocks by Crystek on another device (streamer) : the SQ improvement was tiny. To me, modding a digital interface should be done first on the power of the different parts ; changing clocks should only the cherry on the cake, but with a rather bad quality improvement/price ratio.
The Singxer F1 is (for me) too compact, thus impossible to tweak... a shame, knowing than clocks are pretty good.
And Breeze is cheaper than the F1... why bother ?
That's my view.
Rgds


----------



## gvl2016

Folks, please enlighten me. Does the Breeze XU208 come with any sort of drivers for Windows so that it can work as USB Audio Class 2 device on Windows 7? I don't think you can get them directly from XMOS.


----------



## stoutblock

gvl2016 said:


> Folks, please enlighten me. Does the Breeze XU208 come with any sort of drivers for Windows so that it can work as USB Audio Class 2 device on Windows 7? I don't think you can get them directly from XMOS.



I think this is an issue with the Breeze and one of the reasons it may be as cheap as it is?  Not a problem with Windows 10 because it recognizes USB 2.0 and will automatically load the xCore WASAPI drivers for it.


----------



## gvl2016

stoutblock said:


> I think this is an issue with the Breeze and one of the reasons it may be as cheap as it is?  Not a problem with Windows 10 because it recognizes USB 2.0 and will automatically load the xCore WASAPI drivers for it.



I think we've just talked about it on that other forum too, lol.


----------



## phile1

Here you've got a driver for the Singxer SU-1 : https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singx...nterface-with-xmos-xu208-cpld-dsd256-dop.html
The SU-1 uses the same chip, so it should work, no ?
Rgds


----------



## gvl2016

phile1 said:


> Here you've got a driver for the Singxer SU-1 : https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singx...nterface-with-xmos-xu208-cpld-dsd256-dop.html
> The SU-1 uses the same chip, so it should work, no ?
> Rgds



I suspect it ain't that easy, common sense tells me the fact XMOS isn't giving their driver away to general public means you can't just load a driver from any device, there is likely some sort of enforcement scheme in place, like hardware makers program their customer ID to the chip and driver only loads if it knows about that ID, or something similar you get an idea.


----------



## Jazz.Khan

Ask the seller about the drivers. They should provide you one. When I bought F1 the seller emailed me the drivers after asking for it. I think Drivers for X1, F1 Su1 are all same and should work with this device as well.


----------



## carlmart

OK, can someone tell me what is the complete setup (DAC + Breeze) you are talking about and using? 

By DAC I mean one you can also feed SPDIF coaxial from CD/DVD source and also add the XU208 board for USB decoding.

The Breeze XU208 board being cheaper than the F1 and more mod prone sound irresistible qualities, and maybe it's what I'm looking for.


----------



## stoutblock

carlmart said:


> OK, can someone tell me what is the complete setup (DAC + Breeze) you are talking about and using?
> 
> By DAC I mean one you can also feed SPDIF coaxial from CD/DVD source and also add the XU208 board for USB decoding.
> 
> The Breeze XU208 board being cheaper than the F1 and more mod prone sound irresistible qualities, and maybe it's what I'm looking for.



It depends on what inputs your DAC has.  The Breeze has SPDIF RCA, SPDIF AES, SPDIF optical and i2s RJ-45 outputs.  So I assume you only have SPDIF RCA from your CD/DVD? So does your DAC have any of the other inputs?  If so, you can use them.


----------



## stoutblock

Jazz.Khan said:


> Ask the seller about the drivers. They should provide you one. When I bought F1 the seller emailed me the drivers after asking for it. I think Drivers for X1, F1 Su1 are all same and should work with this device as well.



I tried this with the seller but he just sent me a link to the XMOS website where only the evaluation drivers are available.  I did not experiment with other drivers once Windows 10 loaded xCore drivers fine.


----------



## Jazz.Khan

I 


stoutblock said:


> I tried this with the seller but he just sent me a link to the XMOS website where only the evaluation drivers are available.  I did not experiment with other drivers once Windows 10 loaded xCore drivers fine.



I have the drivers for f1 if you want and drivers are available at shenzhen website as well. Someone posted the link above. If windows generic driver is working then f1 driver should work as well.


----------



## gvl2016

Windows 10 probably just loads a generic Usb audio class 2 driver, and it doesn't mean that F1 driver will work.


----------



## stoutblock

Jazz.Khan said:


> I
> 
> 
> I have the drivers for f1 if you want and drivers are available at shenzhen website as well. Someone posted the link above. If windows generic driver is working then f1 driver should work as well.



Would they be better than the xCore drivers that windows 10 loads?  I think these are created for XMOS?


----------



## bimmer100

Win10 drivers or ones it comes with are not good at all. FYI


----------



## gvl2016

stoutblock said:


> Would they be better than the xCore drivers that windows 10 loads?  I think these are created for XMOS?



I'm on W7, it would load nothing.


----------



## stoutblock (Dec 17, 2017)

bimmer100 said:


> Win10 drivers or ones it comes with are not good at all. FYI





gvl2016 said:


> Windows 10 probably just loads a generic Usb audio class 2 driver, and it doesn't mean that F1 driver will work.



My Windows 10 loaded xCore drivers automatically once I told it to automatically find them.  From what I can tell xCore are not generic drivers and are specifically for XMOS products.  I believe this is one of the recent updates to Windows 10 Fall Creators update (4022716) that came out in November.   It now recognizes USB audio devices and will load drivers if they are available in the Windows library.  Apparently the xCore drivers are in the library and probably many others?  I know this has always been a problem with Windows but apparently no more with this Fall Creators update for Windows 10? I guess it also has some new headphone spacial effect options?

My breeze sounds really good with these xCore WASAPI drivers.


----------



## manishex

bimmer100 said:


> Win10 drivers or ones it comes with are not good at all. FYI


What drivers are recommended instead?


----------



## stoutblock

manishex said:


> What drivers are recommended instead?



I don’t know what others use but the xCore WASAPI drivers sound great with the Breeze U208.  Normally I prefer ASIO drivers over WASAPI drivers but I have not been able to find any that work with the Breeze.


----------



## gvl2016 (Dec 19, 2017)

I ended up buying a used Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 from a fellow member. Anyone willing to try if the Matrix driver works with their Breeze they have it on their website (http://matrix-digi-usa.com/x-series/x-spdif_2), it comes with the ASIO interface as well. My bet it will not work even though both DDCs are using the same XMOS chip.


----------



## phile1

gvl2016 said:


> I ended up buying a used Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 from a fellow member.


Hi,
What's your feedback about the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 ? It replaces which DDC ?
I've read that it sounds slightly better than the SU-1.


----------



## gvl2016 (Dec 19, 2017)

phile1 said:


> Hi,
> What's your feedback about the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 ? It replaces which DDC ?
> I've read that it sounds slightly better than the SU-1.



It sounds good but I have nothing to compare it to, my first DDC, only bought it to feed SPDIF to a vintage DAC which doesn't have USB, hoping to find other uses in the future (IIS). Oh yeah, it is small but I would advice against swimming with it, so heavy you'd drown .


----------



## phile1

Hi,
I've a DDC (Breeze DU-U8 modded) with an i2s output, besides RCA/AES/toslink outputs.
I use spdif outputs.
Does i2s sound better or not ?

I tried i2s in the past using another drive (UPNP streamer), but I got no SQ difference between i2s vs spdif, so I'm wondering if it worths another try.
Thanks
Rgds


----------



## StrikeFreedom

If you using spdif, Some Dac might need receiver chip to convert spdif signal to i2s signal before feed the signal to Dac chip. Some receiver ICs have high jitter (CS841x series are 200ps or greater), some doesn't (AK411x, DIR9001, WM8805 are about 50ps or less). I'm using Leaf Audio Amanero as usb-to-i2s and ESI-Juli@ for spdif with Weiliang's ES9038. I hear no significant different between spdif and usb-2-i2s


----------



## superuser1

The breeze audio Xmos U8 USB to SPDIF/COAX finally arrived. Have hooked it up to the ifi iOne using coax and iDSD BL using optical. Both outputs working at the same time. Feeding the unit using usb from PC/ MusicBee [WASAPI] For sonic differences, Ihear none so far apart from the placebo in my head but i think the low end could be a bit more pronounced than before. I need more time with this setup. Nifty, tiny little device which is powered by the usb input inputting the audio signal.


----------



## gvl2016

Here is a question. I'm using a vintage Parasound D/AC-1000 and it can only do 16-bit and it'll drop any extra LSB it receives right on the floor. Unlike in some earlier XMOS drivers I've seen I can't seem to be able to force my Matrix DDC to 16-bit mode and as it is seen as a 24-bit device in the OS any WASAPI-aware app that doesn't allow explicit output bit-depth selection, e.g. Tidal, is free to decide to dither to full 24-bits from 16 and that can't be good. Am I missing something?


----------



## superuser1

I spoke too soon about the Breeze Audio XMOS U8. It's giving me problems with frequent disconnections. Could someone please help me with a proper driver.


----------



## gvl2016 (Jan 3, 2018)

Can anyone with a proper driver for their Xmos XU208 device please confirm if you have the 16-bit mode available in the control panel like the following? I only have 24 and 32 with the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 and curious if this is something that was completely removed by XMOS in the latest driver/chip or the absence of the 16-bit mode is specific to Matrix?


----------



## superuser1

I don't even have that tab on the control panel window.


----------



## gvl2016 (Jan 3, 2018)

superuser1 said:


> I don't even have that tab on the control panel window.



Interesting, what device do you have? My screenshot above is for an older XMOS chip but I do have a similar tab for the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 but can't choose 16 bit there, only 24/32. I'm hearing XMOS removed the 16-bit setting in the latest driver/hardware and want to confirm it.

EDIT: I see you have Breeze Audio, so is this the driver that Windows 10 loads automatically?


----------



## superuser1

gvl2016 said:


> Interesting, what device do you have? My screenshot above is for an older XMOS chip but I do have a similar tab for the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 but can't choose 16 bit there, only 24/32. I'm hearing XMOS removed the 16-bit setting in the latest driver/hardware and want to confirm it.


That is exactly what i read and that seems to be why i don't see an option for format to begin with. While accessing the Breeze Audio USB XMOS U8 from a playback software (Media Monkey etc.) i get the 16bit, 20bit and 24 bit option max 192 khz


----------



## gvl2016

So your Breeze using XMOS U8? This is previous generation. I have that option for the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 which is based on the XU208, but can't select 16-bit as it's missing. 

The picture I posted is from a M2Tech XMOS module/driver in my other DAC, I think it's also based on the older U8, so the setting is there but if your panel is from the default Win10 driver sounds like this feature has been disabled there as it's often the case with default windows drivers that have reduced feature set as compared to those you get from the actual hardware vendor.


----------



## superuser1

gvl2016 said:


> So your Breeze using XMOS U8? This is previous generation. I have that option for the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 which is based on the XU208, but can't select 16-bit as it's missing.
> 
> The picture I posted is from a M2Tech XMOS module/driver in my other DAC, I think it's also based on the older U8, so the setting is there but if your panel is from the default Win10 driver sounds like this feature has been disabled there as it's often the case with default windows drivers that have reduced feature set as compared to those you get from the actual hardware vendor.


I had first installed the suggested vendor driver however since it was an eval driver it emitted a beep every 10 mins or so after an hour of playback. So i decided to try out the Win 10 driver. Yes this is based on the older U8 chip


----------



## gvl2016

Apparently Breeze doesn't supply drivers so your stuck with whatever is in Win10. You might be able to use a driver from another device that's based on the same chipset, I have yet to find a confirmation it is possible.


----------



## superuser1

gvl2016 said:


> Apparently Breeze doesn't supply drivers so your stuck with whatever is in Win10. You might be able to use a driver from another device that's based on the same chipset, I have yet to find a confirmation it is possible.


So far I am testing the win native driver to see if it will serve the purpose then i will hunt for devices with identical U8 chipset and try if their drivers work.


----------



## gvl2016

superuser1 said:


> So far I am testing the win native driver to see if it will serve the purpose then i will hunt for devices with identical U8 chipset and try if their drivers work.



Please report back if you can find a working driver, I have a suspicion XMOS drivers can be locked to hardware.


----------



## superuser1

gvl2016 said:


> Please report back if you can find a working driver, I have a suspicion XMOS drivers can be locked to hardware.


I shall keep you posted.Currently the native windows driver can only serve 24 bit.


----------



## gvl2016

I see both 24 and 16 bit modes available when the M2Tech driver is set to 24bit, and only 16bit when it's set to 16bit, which makes sense. It does look like the Windows default driver is dumbed down.


----------



## stoutblock (Jan 3, 2018)

With the Windows 10 xCore USB 2 driver, under the advanced tab, I show 16/44100  thru 24/384000


----------



## stoutblock

I did send a note to the seller concerned about the driver.  They sent me the Smuma Digital XMOS XS1-U8 MFA (ST) v 2.19 driver.  It seems to work fine including the ASIO driver for JRiver which I typically prefer over WASAPI.  The Windows 10 xCore USB 2 driver only worked with WASAPI.


----------



## gvl2016 (Jan 3, 2018)

stoutblock said:


> I did send a note to the seller concerned about the driver.  They sent me the Smuma Digital XMOS XS1-U8 MFA (ST) v 2.19 driver.  It seems to work fine including the ASIO driver for JRiver which I typically prefer over WASAPI.  The Windows 10 xCore USB 2 driver only worked with WASAPI.



What "Output" options are available on the "Format" tab in the XMOS driver control panel with that driver?


----------



## stoutblock

gvl2016 said:


> What "Output" options are available on the "Format" tab in the XMOS driver control panel with that driver?



Under the advanced tab, 16/44100 thru 24/192000

I know in my case with my Elyse DAC, connecting the Breeze to the RCA input, it will show 24/192000 available.  When I hook the Breeze to the BNC input it is limited to 24/96000 and then the advanced tab only shows the highest at 24/96000.  So the options available from windows also changes depending on the DAC you are using with the Breeze.


----------



## gvl2016

stoutblock said:


> Under the advanced tab, 16/44100 thru 24/192000
> 
> I know in my case with my Elyse DAC, connecting the Breeze to the RCA input, it will show 24/192000 available.  When I hook the Breeze to the BNC input it is limited to 24/96000 and then the advanced tab only shows the highest at 24/96000.  So the options available from windows also changes depending on the DAC you are using with the Breeze.



Not the Windows advanced tab, what do you have on the Format tab in the XMOS driver control panel - there is a system tray icon click on that, this setting affects what shows up in the "Advanced" tab:


----------



## stoutblock

On my XMOS panel there are no user selectable options.  Just shows current sample rate (depending on the file that is playing) and information (driver level etc).   Only possible adjustments are in windows 10 sound settings.


----------



## gvl2016

stoutblock said:


> On my XMOS panel there are no user selectable options.  Just shows current sample rate (depending on the file that is playing) and information (driver level etc).   Only possible adjustments are in windows 10 sound settings.



I have 2 XMOS-based devices that came with legit drivers and both show this tab, go figure.


----------



## stoutblock

gvl2016 said:


> I have 2 XMOS-based devices that came with legit drivers and both show this tab, go figure.



Are you running Windows 10?


----------



## gvl2016

stoutblock said:


> Are you running Windows 10?



W7, but I can try on W10 as well.


----------



## StrikeFreedom (Jan 4, 2018)

superuser1 said:


> So far I am testing the win native driver to see if it will serve the purpose then i will hunt for devices with identical U8 chipset and try if their drivers work.


Did you try JL Sounds's XMOS Driver yet?
http://jlsounds.com/drivers.html


----------



## StrikeFreedom

gvl2016 said:


> I have 2 XMOS-based devices that came with legit drivers and both show this tab, go figure.


I think M2Tech using customized XMOS driver. Unless, using the same driver the tab wouldn't existing. 

http://lnx.m2tech.biz/support/


----------



## gvl2016

StrikeFreedom said:


> I think M2Tech using customized XMOS driver. Unless, using the same driver the tab wouldn't existing.
> 
> http://lnx.m2tech.biz/support/



The other device is not M2Tech and has the same control panel. Seems like some manufacturers do not expose all driver features in their products.


----------



## gvl2016

Well, I combed through some XMOS docs and I think I know what's happening. There are 3 types of driver bundles, with different licensing cost and/or integration effort, that XMOS offers to manufacturers:

1. Evalulation driver - free/full-featured, beeps every 5 minutes afer 60 minutes of operation
2. XMOS stereo driver - pre-packaged, reduced feature set, doesn't allow customization and product branding - the hardware is branded just as XMOS
3. Thesycon driver- highly customizable driver with a C++ SDK, access to all features, product branding, etc.

Those who don't have the extra tabs likely have the XMOS stereo driver, and generic branding is another sign for that. Those with the Thesycon driver may or may not have access to the extra features, depending on how the manufacturer designed the driver. Apparently both of my devices are using the Thesycon driver, and Win10 loads the generic XMOS stereo driver. I suspect the XMOS stereo driver doesn't lock you on specific hardware, while the Thesycon does.


----------



## gvl2016

Another interesting detail, I've downloaded the eval driver from XMOS and it doesn't work with my Matrix X-SPDIF 2 and the M2Tech board in my DAC at all.


----------



## Jazz.Khan

superuser1 said:


> I spoke too soon about the Breeze Audio XMOS U8. It's giving me problems with frequent disconnections. Could someone please help me with a proper driver.


I had the same issues with FI, tried many drivers but to no avail ended up with returning it.


----------



## Jazz.Khan

Anyone tried this? https://www.ebay.ca/itm/XMOS-XU208-...434949?hash=item1ed53b0985:g:qAwAAOSwDFBaKTTt


----------



## phile1

Strange that no driver works...
On this page => https://fr.aliexpress.com/store/pro...00.html?spm=a2g0w.12010612.0.0.6065f0abDHz43k
You have a link to xmos driver list : https://www.xmos.com/ajax/get_node_history/17271/2.23?ajax=1
At least the last one should work... or I hope because I just bought a DDC (Breeze) using the XU208 !


----------



## superuser1

Jazz.Khan said:


> I had the same issues with FI, tried many drivers but to no avail ended up with returning it.


Well I finally uninstalled all drivers and installed the usb 2 audio class Win 10 driver and it seems to work so far.


----------



## superuser1

phile1 said:


> Strange that no driver works...
> On this page => https://fr.aliexpress.com/store/pro...00.html?spm=a2g0w.12010612.0.0.6065f0abDHz43k
> You have a link to xmos driver list : https://www.xmos.com/ajax/get_node_history/17271/2.23?ajax=1
> At least the last one should work... or I hope because I just bought a DDC (Breeze) using the XU208 !


All of those are evaluation drivers??


----------



## phile1

Sorry, I'm a noob in driver... 
an "evaluation" driver is not ok ?


----------



## superuser1

phile1 said:


> Sorry, I'm a noob in driver...
> an "evaluation" driver is not ok ?


It's alright but after an hour it sends out beep signals in the music stream every 5 minutes.


----------



## phile1

ok thanks SuperUser.
I asked the seller (on Aliexpress) of the DDC to send me the right driver. I'll see if they have it or send me back to the eval driver


----------



## superuser1

phile1 said:


> ok thanks SuperUser.
> I asked the seller (on Aliexpress) of the DDC to send me the right driver. I'll see if they have it or send me back to the eval driver


Sure. Keep us updated.


----------



## phile1

This is my update Superuser1.
i'm testing the Breeze XU208.
I received no feedback from the Aliexpress retailer...
I'm running a PC with W10, W10 found the Breeze & installed the "xCore USBAudio 2.0" driver. Nothing to do, I just left W10 to manage to new interface.

First impression on the this Breeze XU208 vs the DU-U8 (previous Breeze version) which I heavily modded : they seem to be very close.
Thus, it seems the XU208 is a big improvement vs the previous version (stock version).
More testing this weekend.


----------



## superuser1

Thanks for the update @phile1 
I have settled on the Win 10 USB 2 audio too. Please test further and let us know. Mine has been working alright with the bit depth locked to 24 bits.


----------



## stoutblock

phile1 said:


> This is my update Superuser1.
> i'm testing the Breeze XU208.
> I received no feedback from the Aliexpress retailer...
> I'm running a PC with W10, W10 found the Breeze & installed the "xCore USBAudio 2.0" driver. Nothing to do, I just left W10 to manage to new interface.
> ...



If you send me a PM with your email I will send you the driver the AliExpress retailer sent me.  I like it better than the W10 native driver because it includes a functional ASIO driver.  The W10 appears to only have a WASAPI driver.  I like the ASIO driver better.


----------



## superuser1

stoutblock said:


> If you send me a PM with your email I will send you the driver the AliExpress retailer sent me.  I like it better than the W10 native driver because it includes a functional ASIO driver.  The W10 appears to only have a WASAPI driver.  I like the ASIO driver better.


Or better still if you would be kind to upload it to dropbox and share the link with us. 
You are bang on about Win 10 driver only having WASAPI and being stuck to 24 bit


----------



## stoutblock (Jan 29, 2018)

superuser1 said:


> Or better still if you would be kind to upload it to dropbox and share the link with us.
> You are bang on about Win 10 driver only having WASAPI and being stuck to 24 bit



I don’t have a clue how to do that.  For the few that I sent a file to, how did it work?


----------



## canthearyou

I'm currently using the Singxer SU-1 driver. It defaults to 24bit. If I select 16bit, it will not play 24bit MQA files via Tidal. Well, it does play but in standard 44.1/16.


----------



## gvl2016

canthearyou said:


> I'm currently using the Singxer SU-1 driver. It defaults to 24bit. If I select 16bit, it will not play 24bit MQA files via Tidal. Well, it does play but in standard 44.1/16.



That's to be expected. This setting limits the reported device capabilities from the driver, Tidal checks the device capabilities when it decides on the output format of the MQA transcode, if it is 16 bit it falls back to redbook. This is exactly the issue I'm having with my Matrix DDC's driver, it doesn't have the 16-bit mode only 24, so Tidal transcodes to 24/96 or 24/82.1 which my DAC can't understand. Well, to be fair not an issue but more of an annoyance as I can just disable MQA in Tidal and then it uses 16/44.1kHz always.


----------



## Zowie1 (Jan 29, 2018)

I'm currently thinking of replacing my Singxer F-1 with Matrix X-SPDIF2. Has anyone tried it with Marantz HD-DAC1 with the coaxial rca-connection? If you have, how was the sound quality (especially compared to F-1)?


----------



## gvl2016 (Jan 29, 2018)

I don't quite understand why would anyone want to use an external DDC with a DAC that already has a modern async USB interface because depending on how good DAC's SPDIF interface is you're potentially introducing additional jitter by adding the SPDIF link. If you want I2C for DSD sure, but SPDIF?


----------



## Zowie1 (Jan 29, 2018)

gvl2016 said:


> I don't quite understand why would anyone want to use an external DDC with a DAC that already has a modern async USB interface because depending on how good DAC's SPDIF interface is you're potentially introducing additional jitter by adding the SPDIF link. If you want I2C for DSD sure, but SPDIF?



So you mean that pairing Matrix with Marantz wouldn't make any sense with the coaxial rca-connection?


----------



## Clemmaster

Because you add one layer of electrical isolation, which mitigates the impact of the noisy USB connection.
Whether noise (USB) or jitter (S/PDIF) is the dominant source of sound deterioration depends on the rest of the system, including the source (PC, streaming box, ...)

Ideally, you'd want both electrical isolation AND re-clocking before (or in) the DAC.


----------



## gvl2016 (Jan 29, 2018)

Zowie1 said:


> Do you mean that pairing Matrix with Marantz wouldn't make any sense even with the coaxial rca-connection?



It just seems unnecessary and should make no difference at best. Can you decidedly tell the improvements from using the F-1 with the Marantz vs. the Marantz by itself? The Marantz already has a gavlanically isolated async hi-res capable USB interface and that is the most direct and jitter-free path to the actual D/A conversion stage from a PC.

Good reasons for a DDC: a) The DAC lacks a USB port b) The DAC only supports UCA-1 which maxes out at 96kHz/16bit but can do higher on SPDIF and you want to play hi-res c) The DAC has an inferior USB implementation compared to its SPDIF inputs d) The DAC's USB isn't galvanically isolated causing issues but the DDC is e) The DAC has an I2S input. None of which apply to the Marantz HD-DAC1.

The Marantz has its own reclocker, the value of up stream re-clock is a moot point here.


----------



## Zowie1 (Jan 30, 2018)

gvl2016 said:


> It just seems unnecessary and should make no difference at best. Can you decidedly tell the improvements from using the F-1 with the Marantz vs. the Marantz by itself? The Marantz already has a gavlanically isolated async hi-res capable USB interface and that is the most direct and jitter-free path to the actual D/A conversion stage.
> 
> Good reasons for a DDC: a) The DAC lacks a USB port b) The DAC only supports UCA-1 which maxes out at 96kHz/16bit but can do higher on SPDIF and you want to play hi-res c) The DAC has an inferior USB implementation compared to its SPDIF inputs d) The DAC's USB isn't galvanically isolated causing issues but the DDC is e) The DAC has an I2S input. None of which apply to the Marantz HD-DAC1.
> 
> The Marantz has its own reclocker, the value of up stream re-clock is a moot point here.



Thanks for your reply. I will probably stick with the F-1.


----------



## gvl2016 (Jan 29, 2018)

Zowie1 said:


> Thanks for your reply. I will definitely stick with the F-1.



My point being, you likely don't even need the F-1, unless of course you can decidedly tell the difference between it and a direct USB connection to the DAC.


----------



## phile1

Hi Zowie1,
To understand : you have the Marantz HD-DAC1, and you use a Singxer F1 ?
if yes, it sounds better thru the F1 than using the USB input of the DAC ?
if yes, many DDC are told to be better than the Singxer F1 : Singxer SU-1, Shiit Eitr, the Matrix, & some others I don't know, so changing the F1 will lead to better SQ.

Usually, using USB input of DACs brings to lower SQ than using DDC>coax/AES>DAC. That's why DDC are popular.
This Marantz DAC may be the except to this rule. To be honest, I don't know because I never listen to it.
Rgds


----------



## Zowie1

gvl2016 said:


> My point being, you likely don't even need the F-1, unless of course you can decidedly tell the difference between it and a direct USB connection to the DAC.



Actually using the coaxial connection with the F-1 compared to just regular USB-connection makes quite a difference in SQ with the HD-DAC1. I was just wondering if replacing the F-1 with the Matrix X-SPDIF-2 would make it even better.


----------



## gvl2016

Zowie1 said:


> Actually using the coaxial connection with the F-1 compared to just regular USB-connection makes quite a difference in SQ with the HD-DAC1. I was just wondering if replacing the F-1 with the Matrix X-SPDIF-2 would make it even better.



Can you describe this difference? Is it THAT much different? Is it better or is it just different? Do you feel you would you be able to distinguish the 2 in a blind test? I just find it hard to believe Marantz engineers couldn't make the USB input right on a fairly expensive unit but sure there have been srew ups like this before. Perhaps there are other factors in play? Like not going through the same digital audio path, or perhaps not sending bit-accurate in one case vs. the other? Do you use ASIO or Wasapi?


----------



## gvl2016 (Jan 30, 2018)

Topping D10 DAC is on Massdrop, has XU208 USB, ES9018K2M DAC chip, SPDIF outputs, DSD support, format display, legit drivers, socketed op-amp, all for $74.99!


----------



## superuser1

Has anyone found a good working driver for the breeze U8 DDC (usb to coax and opt)


----------



## phile1

Hi, 
My pc has Win10 : no need extra driver. Just plug the U8 & Win10 will install its own x-Core USB Audio driver & will discover the U8
If, you have Win8 or previous, this driver should work : http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/driverdatasheetmanual/62-diyinhk-dxio-stereo-usb-audio-driver-v223.html
Rgds


----------



## doraymon

Can anyone explain me in simple words how does this module handle USB to I2S conversion?


----------



## gvl2016

doraymon said:


> Can anyone explain me in simple words how does this module handle USB to I2S conversion?



USB data is received by the XMOS chip using asynchronous isochronous transfer mode, then sent out over differential I2S using stable word clock. Is that what you're after ?


----------



## doraymon (Feb 18, 2018)

gvl2016 said:


> USB data is received by the XMOS chip using asynchronous isochronous transfer mode, then sent out over differential I2S using stable word clock. Is that what you're after ?


Hem, I didn’t understand half of the words you used. Although I’m an engineer signal processing is not my field...
So does the conversion imply a reclocking of the signal and if so, which is the component that does that on the XU208?

EDIT: what I am ultimately trying to understand is the following: suppose I use a very clean, jitter free signal as an input to the XU208 module in my DAC (coming from a device with very good quality oscillators), will this signal be f### up by the good but not top quality oscillators in the XU208?


----------



## gvl2016 (Feb 18, 2018)

doraymon said:


> Hem, I didn’t understand half of the words you used. Although I’m an engineer signal processing is not my field...
> So does the conversion imply a reclocking of the signal and if so, which is the component that does that on the XU208?
> 
> EDIT: what I am ultimately trying to understand is the following: suppose I use a very clean, jitter free signal as an input to the XU208 module in my DAC (coming from a device with very good quality oscillators), will this signal be f### up by the good but not top quality oscillators in the XU208?



Not sure if the XMOS chip has internal oscillators but these converters or DACs typically have oscillators outside of XMOS, and if your oscillators are better than what's in a particular DDC or DAC then yes the final I2S output can be worse than what you feed it with over USB. That's my understanding anyway. The XMOS chip runs in asynchronous mode and thus is fully decoupled from the upstream clock.


----------



## doraymon

gvl2016 said:


> Not sure if the XMOS chip has internal oscillators but these converters or DACs typically have oscillators outside of XMOS, and if your oscillators are better than what's in a particular DDC or DAC then yes the final I2S output can be worse than what you feed it with over USB. That's my understanding anyway. The XMOS chip runs in asynchronous mode and thus is fully decoupled from the upstream clock.


Understood, thanks!
I’ll try to enquire the DAC manufacturer about how the conversion happens.


----------



## gvl2016

doraymon said:


> Understood, thanks!
> I’ll try to enquire the DAC manufacturer about how the conversion happens.



I don't think there is much to it conceptually, the data is received from USB, buffered in the XMOS, and then converted to I2S on a clock that's independent from the USB clock. Synchronous USB interfaces went out of fashion a while back due to the typically jittery USB clock.


----------



## doraymon (Feb 18, 2018)

gvl2016 said:


> converted to I2S on a clock that's independent from the USB clock


That’s the critical piece of information.
So what I need to understand is which clock does my DAC use to do this.
Just to put things into perspective and understand where am I coming from, check my signature.
My DAC’s architecture is so that the signal fed to the D/A conversion section is always I2S.
Any other input signal other than I2S will be converted on board by the DAC.

I purchased the Singxer KTE SU-1 DDR assuming that this would have been a much better quality D/D converter (it uses two Crystek CCHD-575 clock oscillators).
However for some mysterious reasons my ears tell me that I like better the sound when the SU-1 is out of the chain.
I am trying to understand the reasons why...


----------



## gvl2016 (Feb 18, 2018)

doraymon said:


> That’s the critical piece of information.
> So what I need to understand is which clock does my DAC use to do this.
> Just to put things into perspective and understand where am I coming from, check my signature.
> My DAC’s architecture is so that the signal fed to the D/A conversion section is always I2S.
> ...



How long is the I2S cable? The internal conversion to I2S has the benefit of shorter path to the actual DAC circuitry and no differential drivers/receivers in the path. Fwiw, the USB interface in the Holo Spring is an async XMOS board as far as I can tell from the pictures, so should be subject to the same issues if you suspect the oscillators aren't up to snuff as compared to your quality source (is it the SOtM tX-USBultra?).


----------



## doraymon

gvl2016 said:


> How long is the I2S cable?


Supra HD5 HDMI cable 50cm length.



gvl2016 said:


> the USB interface in the Holo Spring is an async XMOS board as far as I can tell from the pictures


Correct



gvl2016 said:


> is it the SOtM tX-USBultra?


Correct


----------



## gvl2016 (Feb 18, 2018)

doraymon said:


> Supra HD5 HDMI cable 50cm length.



I didn't try very hard but I couldn't find any info if the Holo Spring has any sort of I2S reclocker just before the DAC that the signal always go through regardless of which input is used, I think they would have made a big deal out of it if it had one. Assuming it doesn't reclock I2S signal internally the clock that the DAC modules run at comes from either the I2S, SPDIF interface chips, or the internal USB interface depending on which input is active. So it is the Sinxer's oscillators that clock the DAC when the I2S input is used.

About your cable. I'd say 50cm is too long. Use the shortest possible quality HDMI cable you can find to eliminate a possibility of clock degradation due to the cable length. Blue Jeans Cable sells 1ft Belden HDMI cable, perhaps give it a shot unless you can find one that's even shorter and will reach between the output/input.

Also I don't quite get the benefits of inline USB reclockers now that the world has moved to async USB interfaces, but I'm maybe missing something. Perhaps they provide other benefits like galvanic isolation, I can see that being useful unless it is implemented in the DAC.


----------



## doraymon

gvl2016 said:


> I didn't try very hard but I couldn't find any info if the Holo Spring has any sort of I2S reclocker just before the DAC that the signal always go through regardless of which input is used, I think they would have made a big deal out of it if it had one. Assuming it doesn't reclock I2S signal internally the clock that the DAC modules run at comes from either the I2S, SPDIF interface chips, or the internal USB interface depending on which input is active. So it is the Sinxer's oscillators that clock the DAC when the I2S input is used.
> 
> About your cable. I'd say 50cm is too long. Use the shortest possible quality HDMI cable you can find to eliminate a possibility of clock degradation due to the cable length.
> 
> Also I don't quite get the benefits of inline USB reclockers now that the world has moved to async USB interfaces, but I'm maybe missing something. Perhaps they provide other benefits like galvanic isolation, I can see that being useful unless it is implemented in the DAC.


I had an exchange with Tim of Kitsune HiFi.
The XU208 USB module relies on external clocks to convert the signal to I2S and the same goes for music sampling (2 clocks, one for 44.1/88.2/176.4/352.8, the other for 48/96/192/384). Total 3 clocks.
He clarified that the Spring DAC's own clocks are not at the level of the Crystek clocks in the Singxer SU-1. Using the HDMI I2S input of the DAC will bypass the DAC's internal clocks and use the external one which is from the SU1. And the SU-1 is more accurate/lower phase noise, especially with the KTE DDR mods.

So the only things left to explain why would I hear a better SQ without the SU-1 are:
1) length and quality of the cable (although my Supra was suggested by Tim himself)
2) burn-in of the SU-1 and temperature stabilisation (apparently the Crystek clocks need up to 24h to stabilise and deliver their full potential...)
3) My brain, ears and tastes are just liking more the USB solution...


----------



## gvl2016

Or the Singxer is defective. Of course you can only know for sure what's going on, if anything, if you put your gear on the test bench and get some measurements.


----------



## doraymon

gvl2016 said:


> Or the Singxer is defective. Of course you can only know for sure what's going on, if anything, if you put your gear on the test bench and get some measurements.


Yeah good point...


----------



## motberg

doraymon said:


> Yeah good point...



 My guess is the clocks and processing in the tX-USBultra is so far advanced from the SU-1 that the SU-1 becomes a downgrade bottleneck.
In your case the sMS-200ultra should be offering some isolation through the Ethernet to USB conversion (iiuc).
There are hundreds, maybe thousands of posts already in other forums concerning the SOtM Ultra series proficiency in improving SQ, which can even be enhanced by using an outboard reference clock. If I recall correctly, there have been a few posts testing direct comparison vs. the Uptone ISORegen (Crystek) and W4S Recovery (Crystek?) and the SOtM Ultra was preferred, but the Uptone IR is much more affordable and offers isolation in most cases. 

I have a friend  that tried my SU-1 (with Supercaps PS) and my Tanly, and Recovery, and a couple other DDC's and then later got the SOtM tx Ultra.. his observation is SOtM Ultra is currently in a different league.

I am not sure how good the KTE mod is on the SU-1, but in my case I needed to provide independent isolated 5V power to the board to get it to beat my Tanly... Even after 3 days solid break-in it, the original SU-1 was still harsh sounding (my speakers have some peaks after 10K that can be problematic.)

Some day I may try a tX-USBultra also, I would love to get one but that is a LOT of money for a reclocker without GI.. so for now I will be sticking with my Crystek´s; JCat USB card->Singxer UIP-1 isolator->Recovery->SU-1->i2s ... sounds great and performs solidly with much care to the cables and power. I use a Wireworld 0.3M (old model Starlight) HDMI cable for the i2s.. I agree your 0.5 meter cable may be some problem.. I tried a 0.5M DH Labs HDMI briefly and I think the Starlight was better. That said, I have had a 1 M Starlight in my system while doing some testing and worked fine.

I am not sure, but I think HDMI i2s does use some type of transmitter/receiver scheme. IIUC, a SE i2s transmission (that typically uses RJ45 type connectors) does not, but must use super short cable, as i2s was not developed for external components.

I think some DIY guy is already working on using SOtM Ultra clock outputs to replace the clocks in the SU-1.. I do not think this has yet been completed, but if successful would seem the perfect solution in your case as you already own the Ultra clock module in your SOtM devices. 
I am hoping SOtM comes out with an Ultra DDC with i2s... currently they offer an AES/SPDIF DDC Ultra version, I think that is around 1200 USD or so


----------



## Zowie1 (Mar 22, 2018)

I've been reading this thread and thinking about adding either Intona Isolator Industrial version or Startech/Icron 1 GB lan etc. into my chain with Singxer F-1 and Marantz HD-Dac-1 or just replace the F-1 with it. Which one would be a better option?

Is this the right version to get if I decide to buy Startech/Icron:
https://www.amazon.de/StarTech-com-Gigabit-Cat5e-Ethernet-verlängerung/dp/B00HFGQESY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1520681409&sr=8-2&keywords=startech+usb+lan&th=1

(I would probably need the 4 port gigabit version if I've understood correctly)


----------



## motberg

Zowie1 said:


> I've been reading this thread and thinking about adding either Intona Isolator Industrial version or Startech/Icron 1 GB lan etc. into my chain with Singxer F-1 and Marantz HD-Dac-1 or just replace the F-1 with it. Which one would be a better option?
> 
> Is this the right version to get if I decide to buy Startech/Icron:
> https://www.amazon.de/StarTech-com-Gigabit-Cat5e-Ethernet-verlängerung/dp/B00HFGQESY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1520681409&sr=8-2&keywords=startech+usb+lan&th=1
> ...



I believe the correct model is USB2G4LEXT2.. there is a currently active thread at US Audiomart forums which has a lot of cool information.. (I think an older one here also..) this could get somewhat expensive as it seems best performance requires upgrading the power supplies at both ends. This seems a good idea if you need a longer distance USB extension.  

I got one of these and works great.. https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singxer-uip-1-isolate-processor-usb2-0-usb-interface.html
This probably benefits from the cleanest power you could afford also..

You should be able to pick up a used Intona pretty cheap I think... they work well, but may benefit from some sort of additional reclocking after the isolation.

I think the best current value is the Uptone Audio ISORegen as it includes isolation and decent USB reclocking... Uptone is pretty good handling international shipments also, from my experience I would advise their cheapest option, but you can ask Uptone for their experience to your country... again can probably get a used one at a good price as folks sometimes change to SOtM stuff..


----------



## murphythecat (Mar 25, 2018)

did anyone compared the new version of the breeze audio du u8 x208 to schiit eitr or mutec mc3+ or singxer su1, ect?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Bre...tal-interface-to-support-DSD/32789780971.html

I use the previous breeze du u8 and im looking to upgrade. My dac only accept Toslink input so it makes the Eitr or the singxer products out for me. what is out there that would be a good upgrade from my breeze audio du u8 v1?


----------



## phile1

Hi Murphy,
I add a U8 modded. The Breeze U208 was behind but close to my U8 modded. I kept my U8.

If you need toslink, you can have a look at the Assembled XU208 / FUN01 : https://www.ebay.com/itm/Assembled-...Interface-XLR-AES-fiber-coaxial-/112402255126
I tried it but it sounded harsh. I guess the trouble was the PS I used. I plan to test again this FUN01 with a linear PS (LPS is ordered, I should receive it within 10days). Apart from this harsh sound, this FUN01 was ahead of my modded U8 (more dynamic, more 3D, more details). I'll post feedback about this test on the FUN01.

I received a SU-1 this week. Burning is nearly completed. It sounds ahead all my previous DDC (modded U8, Breeze U208, FUN01).
I'll compare the SU-1 to the FUN01+LPS.
Rgds


----------



## superuser1

murphythecat said:


> did anyone compared the new version of the breeze audio du u8 x208 to schiit eitr or mutec mc3+ or singxer su1, ect?
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Bre...tal-interface-to-support-DSD/32789780971.html
> 
> I use the previous breeze du u8 and im looking to upgrade. My dac only accept Toslink input so it makes the Eitr or the singxer products out for me. what is out there that would be a good upgrade from my breeze audio du u8 v1?


What drivers are you using for Windows 10 with your Breeze U8?


----------



## murphythecat (Mar 26, 2018)

phile1 said:


> Hi Murphy,
> I add a U8 modded. The Breeze U208 was behind but close to my U8 modded. I kept my U8.
> 
> If you need toslink, you can have a look at the Assembled XU208 / FUN01 : https://www.ebay.com/itm/Assembled-...Interface-XLR-AES-fiber-coaxial-/112402255126
> ...


hi
ok so since I have the previous breeze duu8, the new breeze x208 would probably be only a very small upgrade?
Let me know, when you can,  what LPS you will use with the FUN01 and how it comapres to SU-1!!!
The SU-1 sadly doesnt offer toslink out, so I cannot use it with my DAC. Mutec mc3+ would be ideal but I dont have the money for it. what are my other options around 500$?

thanks a lot


----------



## murphythecat

superuser1 said:


> What drivers are you using for Windows 10 with your Breeze U8?


I'm using the original breeze duu8, not sure if my drivers will work with your new breeze....


----------



## superuser1

murphythecat said:


> I'm using the original breeze duu8, not sure if my drivers will work with your new breeze....


I have the breeze U8 which is the older version of the U208


----------



## Maxx134 (Mar 26, 2018)

Here are my thoughts on these units....

*Singer SU-01:*
XU208 XMOS
_Considered great unit._

*FUN1:*
XU208 XMOS USB
XU208 is the second generation XMOS chip memory is 2 time ofU8.
computing speed arrived1000MIPS,
(U8 is 500MIPS.)
_Considered to have not as good clocks as SU-1 unit._

*2017 Breeze Audio DU-U8:*
2017 have Better clocks?

Original Using XMOS-U8 core workingin500MHz..

Since 1st, November 2017,
XMOS master chip has been upgraded to the second generation U208,
and the installation of EMI power filter, the details better and more pure...

*DXIO Pro3Z:*
The XU216-512 XMOS is used in this pcb...
It is a XU216 at 2000MIPS and it contains two tile..(!)
It is equal to two XU208 combined in one silicon chip..
One dedicated tile is used for the USB data and the other tile is dedicated to process the audio data to the DAC.

 XU216-512 includes 4x more ram than xu208-128 (!),
And 8x more ram than U8/U6.

_This is a great unit,
But only a USB to SPDIF unit._
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-k...noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


*IMO...*
All these units are already old and need upgrading.
Its been over a year and half already when F-1 unit came out.
They should all be implementing XU216-512 or whatever else newer out.

I am currently using the Pro3Z with a Uptone Audio ISORegen feeding it power thru USB,
 as I found that was better than using it's optional power input with my ifi PSU,
as it is then using the XU216-512 isolation to it's full potentiaI.

I do not know if this spdiff route is equal or better or worse than AES, or HDMI, both which are generally regarded best way to go,
 but this spdif certainly way better than any USB.


----------



## murphythecat

superuser1 said:


> I have the breeze U8 which is the older version of the U208


please use this driver and report
https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid...D0AB7686EA250D95!4056&authkey=AKASKTkcgS8A2xE


----------



## Detectit (Mar 26, 2018)

I have bought a Xu208 card for my new DAC.
I have installed the drivers but it isn't accepting DSD with ASIO support. While that DAC is capable.  

This one:

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32846461529.html?trace=storeDetail2msiteDetail

With the TUSb audio drivers everything works fine. But it's an evaluation version.
What's the catch? Those chinese boards won't pay a license fee to get it properly working.?

V.3.4.3 on driver deliverd with card TUSb audio is 4.11.


----------



## murphythecat

Maxx134 said:


> Here are my thoughts on these units....
> 
> *Singer SU-01:*
> XU208 XMOS
> ...


So youve compared the PRO3z to the Su-01 and proffered the Pro3Z?
what PSU do you use with the Pro3z. ill order the pro3z and would really like to know the LPSU you use!
thanks max!


----------



## Maxx134

murphythecat said:


> So youve compared the PRO3z to the Su-01 and proffered the Pro3Z


No i did not.
Only on paper comparison.

The reason to get the su-1 is to use the other outputs.


----------



## murphythecat

Maxx134 said:


> No i did not.
> Only on paper comparison.
> 
> The reason to get the su-1 is to use the other outputs.


what LPSU do you use? 
thanks


----------



## Maxx134

I am currently only using Spdif thru coax.

I use an ifi PSU into the Regen, into the Pro3Z then out to coax input.

Many prefer going AES with the SU-01 unit, 
but for Spdif, not many have tried the pro3z over the F-1.
I have not owned the SU unit,
But I have owned the F-1 and did notice Improvement with the latest pro3Z(not pro3a).


----------



## superuser1

murphythecat said:


> please use this driver and report
> https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=D0AB7686EA250D95&resid=D0AB7686EA250D95!4056&authkey=AKASKTkcgS8A2xE


I want to thank for for the drivers and i can gladly report back it is working great with the Breeze U8.


----------



## Whitigir (May 10, 2018)

Has anyone used this ? 768k

Plan to upgrade R2R7 Amanero.  Pins outs are correct, do I need different software too ?  LPSU on the R2R7 

Xmos


----------



## Whitigir (May 10, 2018)

rb2013 said:


> I always laugh when I go to the DIYinHK website - these guys don't even know how to read a log scale!
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/107-xmos-dsd-dxd-768khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb.html
> They post this quote and the chart below:
> ...



Wow, thanks for this post.  Kinda late that I bought this Xmos and is shipped out already.  I was reading into the isolated version, so I couldn’t see the chart comparisons....so, I hope this is still better than Amanero 384


----------



## richardloh (Oct 13, 2018)

Maxx134 said:


> I am currently only using Spdif thru coax.
> 
> I use an ifi PSU into the Regen, into the Pro3Z then out to coax input.
> 
> ...



Hi Maxx,

Deciding between the usd216 pro3z and  usd379 matrix spdif which is quite a bit id difference in $.

I just need usb-spdif from my  car android head unit to play dsd to my car dated but excellent alpine pxa-900 processor with BB 1704-k dac.

I have the hifime U1 (no dac) and smsl x-usb and the pro3z is clearly better with more details, extension etc. aka much less veiled and I am sold on getting best usb-spdif bridge.

Speculation is fine as I dun find any direct comparison of such bridge:

- would matrix spdif2 be better than pro3z
- can mucholder hiface evo 2 with added hiface clock be betta than pro3x and matrix spdif-2

TIA and cheers.

Richard


----------



## richardloh

motberg said:


> I believe the correct model is USB2G4LEXT2.. there is a currently active thread at US Audiomart forums which has a lot of cool information.. (I think an older one here also..) this could get somewhat expensive as it seems best performance requires upgrading the power supplies at both ends. This seems a good idea if you need a longer distance USB extension.
> 
> I got one of these and works great.. https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singxer-uip-1-isolate-processor-usb2-0-usb-interface.html
> This probably benefits from the cleanest power you could afford also..
> ...



Hi Motberg,

Was to pick up the uptone iso regen on abovementioned application but read the audioscience thread and held back as Amir concluded that it does nothing.

Moreover, I am do not know if these usb gadgetries on usb power will stick make any difference for my use case with already car's 12v car application and none of repeatedly mention noises from smps that I think does not affect or with minimal effort.

Comments and advice most appreciated .. I just start on these digital stuff but still have garrard 301, 401 and michell gyrodec with various rb300, sme iv, sme vi.vi, 3012r tonearms.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## curentatu

anyone has the rj45 pin layout of the Breeze DU-U8 ?


----------



## FredA

curentatu said:


> anyone has the rj45 pin layout of the Breeze DU-U8 ?


Same as audio-gd.


----------



## curentatu

thank you.


----------



## FredA

No problem.


----------



## curentatu

i managed to get an answer from the breeze support and this is the pin layout.


----------



## curentatu

What is the latest xmos driver for the DU-U8 ?
Does it allow you to modify the Asio Buffer and Latency.
Does it have the Streaming Mode option like this does ?


----------



## superuser1

This is all i get...


----------



## curentatu

well that`s not good, you dont get all the options then.
we need a better driver, i wonder if a thesycon one works too cuz we can get some from other devices like audiolab m-dac or m2tech.


----------



## superuser1

curentatu said:


> well that`s not good, you dont get all the options then.
> we need a better driver, i wonder if a thesycon one works too cuz we can get some from other devices like audiolab m-dac or m2tech.


i completely agree with you. I tried one of the thesycon drivers and those options were greyed out so i am guess i got a wrong driver. My efforts to 
get the Aliexpress seller to send me a link for the driver yielded no satisfying results.


----------



## curentatu

there should be a method to modify them through regedit, maybe someone can help us out with that.


----------



## stoutblock

Last driver I have is 9.20.0.0


----------



## curentatu

can you share ?


----------



## stoutblock

curentatu said:


> can you share ?



Not sure how to do that. It is an executable file and it does not let me attach it?


----------



## curentatu

just archive it or upload it on something like https://mega.nz/


----------



## curentatu (Nov 12, 2018)

I managed to get my hands on a proper Thesycon driver that works, tested it myself.

ENJOY:

https://mega.nz/#!8dwFmYSS!IGOWyTDta-jplAKN7JDMb4n69VS8f2vhGvdf9y6KHHo


----------



## curentatu

I managed to get my hands on a proper Thesycon driver that works, tested it myself.

ENJOY:

https://mega.nz/#!8dwFmYSS!IGOWyTDta-jplAKN7JDMb4n69VS8f2vhGvdf9y6KHHo


----------



## NoNameNPC (Mar 22, 2019)

Hi!
I have singxer su-1 2.0v
But I don't know about changes, my su-1 have 4 capacitors near voltage regulator instead 2, but I already buy capacitors thinking this is not changes on main board. =(
I have 3 RR70J221MDN1 Nichicon and 2 EEU-FR1E331 Panasonic can I use them? Or I need all 4 panasonic and 1 nichicon? Or I can use 2 panasonic near voltage regulator and 2 nichicon near they?
Thx.


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## Joong

Does anybody have Singxer f-1 firmware of any revision?
I recently overwrite the f-1 firmware with that of SU-1 so that it does not work.
Please send me the firmware to revive my f-1.

Thanks in advance really


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## leter15

SU2 has come.


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## leter15

Joong said:


> Does anybody have Singxer f-1 firmware of any revision?
> I recently overwrite the f-1 firmware with that of SU-1 so that it does not work.
> Please send me the firmware to revive my f-1.
> 
> Thanks in advance really


oh,it will cause F1 to become a brick.
You can contact Singxer.


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## carlmart

I was looking at the thread beginning, and at that moment you could find different X208 XMOS converters, and if I am not wrong there was only one version with galvanic isolation from the first stage, and into the output SPDIF stage, and that was the F1 version. 

Now I made a search and only Singxer seems to be only one offering the F1, at a very high price. Is that so?

People stopped experimenting with this USB to I2S converter, connecting it to a DAC? 

Maybe because more and more DACs are including the X208 stage internally? My Topping D50 has one, and many others. do. 

Is that the way to go now? 

The other people offering X208 stages, with and without isolation, was DIYINHK, and it seems few people are buying that from them. 

Is that a fashion that faded away?


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## Lolito

any news?


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## hmscott (Jun 22, 2021)

@Lolito - I was looking at these devices to get rid of USB source noise, specifically PC / Laptop noise:

SU-1 XMOS USB Audio Bridge, then the newer Singxer SU-2 USB digital interface femutal clock boat interface DSD1024:
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/singxer-su-1-usb-bridge.21724/reviews

DIYINHK XMOS 192kHz high-quality USB to SPDIF with ultralow noise 1uV regulator

NDK NZ2520SD Ultra low phase noise oscillator
World's lowest noise 1.0uV regulator from Analog Devices or 0.8uV from Linear Technology
New DXIO PRO3Z uses the latest XMOS XCORE-200 XU216-512, it is equal to Two XU208 in One chip.
4+2 layer PCB = total 6 layer PCB
Uptone Audio ISO REGEN
"The UpTone Audio ISO REGEN is the first device—designed specifically for quality music systems—to deliver both true high-speed galvanic isolation and extremely high signal integrity in a single, small and affordable package."


Spoiler: May 25, 2021 update product canceled!, new product designs underway:



May 25, 2021: We are sorry to report that the very popular ISO REGEN (nearly 2,000 units sold) must now be discontinued. This is because the Silanna ICE09USB galvanic isolation chip was discontinued by the manufacturer two years ago and all stocks are gone. UpTone is developing several new USB products. One will be an improved USB REGEN (think ISO REGEN but without galvanic isolation yet with some enhancements) in same case size and similar price. The other two new USB products are VERY radical and advanced designs (drawing on some of EtherREGEN's tech), but those will be larger and at higher price points (similar to EtherREGEN price). Please STAY TUNED!



Fortunately, I found a less expensive solution, when I understood the problem was the Noise injected by the PC onto the USB power lines, I first looked for a USB "data-only" cable, but I couldn't find one, so I found the next best thing:

ifi iDefender+
https://ifi-audio.com/products/idefender-plus/

For me, I solved my USB noise problem by using the ifi iDefender+ to "disconnect" the USB Power lines.  It interrupts the USB power, and allows injection of "clean" 5V power if your downstream DAC needs USB power to function.

All the "USB Noise" is gone when I put the USB A-A ifi iDefender+ in-line with my Topping D90 !!

Note, that each DAC we connect to the same noisy source will also need a USB Power line interrupter, like the Ifi iDefender+ and if your device needs USB power I found the ifi iPower+ is very quiet - I tried it with my USB powered SWL radios and they were silent - noisy PSU's make those radios unusable while charging.

I'll update later with more links...


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## iFi audio

hmscott said:


> ifi iDefender+
> https://ifi-audio.com/products/idefender-plus/
> 
> For me, I solved my USB noise problem by using the ifi iDefender+ to "disconnect" the USB Power lines. It interrupts the USB power, and allows injection of "clean" 5V power if your downstream DAC needs USB power to function.



Yup, that's our iDefender+ in a nutshell. Thanks for mentioning it


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## Somatic

Any XMOS variation with DC power to pair with Dave? Need Toslink out. So some different brands have better clocks? Will this increase performance off toslink? Thanks.


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