# 6SN7 Tube Addicts



## rosgr63

I wonder if there are Head-Fiers who consider the 6SN7 as a great tube, if they collect them and which version and make is the best.
   
   
  Please note I created this thread out of respect to adhoc's threads which are my ALL time favourites, I have learned so much reading them.
  I thought this way we could keep these wonderful threads as Reference Material and discuss various issues here.
   
  Here are adhoc's threads:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide


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## Denys

Hi,

 I had RCA 6SN7 that were giving an OK result, as they were the first pair I had. For the fun of it, I bought a pair of Sylvania chrome top... Wow !! what a difference !! I did not think it the sound would have change that much. My amp has two 807 power tubes, 2 6SN7 and one 6BQ7... I thought only this one could change the sound.. I was wrong.

 I've read that the Sylvania VT-231 are pretty good....but they are pricey...

 I wonder about Sophia Electric 6SN7....anyone heard them ??

 Denys


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## Happy Camper

Yeah, the Ken Rad VT231 is another good sounding 6sn7.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/ref...thread-117677/


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## nikongod

bummer

6sn7.com is down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 They had some great info about 6sn7 tubes.


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## Afrikane

6SN7 Tubeseller has some useful info too.


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## Jon L

Personally, I now try to stay away from equipment that uses 6SN7's. 

 I have collected lots of 6SN7/VT231 tubes for previous equipments and have owned/tried the venerables, including TungSol roundplates, Sylvania metal base, KenRad, RCA grey glass, National Union grey and black glass, Sylvania VT231, etc, etc. 

 Many sound good and some sound special, but honestly, there are other tubes that can yield just as good results, if not better, but at much less cost. 6SN7 hype over the years has resulted in tripling, quadrupling of NOS prices over the years and just not worth it IMO.


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## rosgr63

Some new amps like Current Eddie BA and some Woo's still use the 6SN7's as drivers.
 I agree though with Jon L there's a lot of hype and overcharging for 6SN7's.


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## Spareribs

Yeah, I agree, there is a bit of an over charge and a bit of an over hype but since they last a long time on a good amp, a good pair like a standard 1950s Sylvania is normally about $25 each which isn't too bad of a price and it's a great tube for any price IMO. I also find the vintage General Electrics to be relativly cheap and excellent too. The same goes for rebranded off brand types for that era. But the really expensive ones that go for over $100 a pair is not really worth it IMO. Fortunatly, I've always found good deals and never paid outrageous prices. You should shop around if possible but sometimes paying a little extra to a reputable dealer can be good too though.

 I find that the design of the amp is argubaly more important than finding the best tubes. If the amp is already well designed with a quality power supply, a modest name tube like a G.E. for example will make it sing wonderfully.


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## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Spareribs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find that the design of the amp is argubaly more important than finding the best tubes. If the amp is already well designed with a quality power supply, a modest name tube like a G.E. for example will make it sing wonderfully._

 

Agree.
 However some of us tube addicts can't help but buy some of the more exotic versions even though they don't offer value for money and sonic advantage may only be minor.


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## Spareribs

^ That's true. Shopping for the 6SN7 tubes can be fun since there are so many choices. One of the great things about this tube is that there are still so many out there so you can be stocked for the rest of your life. And good deals can be found so in a way, it's a good bargain in various aspects.


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## rosgr63

It's not fun, it's an addiction!
 Where does one stop?


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## Leny

It's nice to see a spread of opinions. A friend of mine has many different types and gets amusement from swapping them in and out of his Cary preamplifier. I joke with him that it's almost more absorbing for him than the music. 

 The only down-side seems to be when the sellers poke up the prices, but I guess that's capiatalism for you. However I think they made plenty in the past, and I understand that one company is making new ones also.


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## rosgr63

Electron Tube sell a new matched pair for a bit over $40, and I've read nice comments about them. Sophia Princess and others also make them.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, I now try to stay away from equipment that uses 6SN7's. 

 I have collected lots of 6SN7/VT231 tubes for previous equipments and have owned/tried the venerables, including TungSol roundplates, Sylvania metal base, KenRad, RCA grey glass, National Union grey and black glass, Sylvania VT231, etc, etc. 

 Many sound good and some sound special, but honestly, there are other tubes that can yield just as good results, if not better, but at much less cost. 6SN7 hype over the years has resulted in tripling, quadrupling of NOS prices over the years and just not worth it IMO._

 

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that I actually try to FIND amps that use the 6SN7, precisely BECAUSE I have a large stash of them already and I want to use them


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## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nikongod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bummer

6sn7.com is down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They had some great info about 6sn7 tubes._

 

The 6SN7 - the best general-purpose triode?

 You should be able to view the cached version via Google.


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## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that I actually try to FIND amps that use the 6SN7, precisely BECAUSE I have a large stash of them already and I want to use them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Any favorites?


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## Skylab

My favorite "bargain" 6SN7 is the CBS/Hytron tall-bottle 6SN7GT. Great tube, and often available for quite cheap.

 I also have been able to get Sylvania 6SN7WGT's, NOS, for $10 each, within the last week. And these are pretty nice tubes - especially for that price!


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## rosgr63

I also got an unused Sylvania 6SN7WGTA chrome top black plates green markings for $15, so it's not that bad.


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## DeadEars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, I now try to stay away from equipment that uses 6SN7's. 

 I have collected lots of 6SN7/VT231 tubes for previous equipments and have owned/tried the venerables, including TungSol roundplates, Sylvania metal base, KenRad, RCA grey glass, National Union grey and black glass, Sylvania VT231, etc, etc. 

 Many sound good and some sound special, but honestly, there are other tubes that can yield just as good results, if not better, but at much less cost. 6SN7 hype over the years has resulted in tripling, quadrupling of NOS prices over the years and just not worth it IMO._

 

This is good advice! Of course it is kinda fun exploring the scads of different NOS alternatives. They really DO have very different presentations of the music. The best sound totally convincing and valid, until you try another great one that gives you a whole different perspective on the same music. 

 If you are into DIY, you can use 12SN7 tubes instead of the 6SN7's. These were made on the same factory lines and used the same materials & parts, just the higher heater voltage. A pair of NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7 round plates easily fetches $250 or more, whereas you can find Tung-Sol round plate 12SN7's for $50-60.

 I spent a few years playing with 6SN7's and when I added up the total spent, it was astounding (over $1500 for damn tubes). Now that I have a big stash, it is fun to play with amps that use these tubes, but I definitely would not recommend it as the best course, or even the best sound available.

 There is something nice about octals though... (sound of wallet crying)


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## HeatFan12

6SN7s have really skyrocketed in prices the last couple of years. Thankfully, I stocked up and purchased several nice random lots a while back, tested them and was lucky and ended up with a nice stash.

 Here's an old pic of one of my drawers.







 I have several favorites, but two of my go-to:

 Tung Sol Tall







 Sylvania W Short


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## monsieurguzel

I recently got a pair of GE 6SN7GT tubes with my WA5 and was wondering how good of driver tubes they actually were? I was tempted to upgrade to the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z but am not sure how much of a jump in performance there would be. Anybody have any suggestions?


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## ygm

One thing I've got to say if you are shopping ebay for 6SN7s is that don't let your enthusiasm get the best of you. I got a whole collection of second grade tubes, that I will probably never listen to again, because I was too anxious to buy. Watch the market for a month or so before purchasing - its not going away. Listen to the new tubes before buying any more. You'll save a lot of money and shelf space. =)


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I recently got a pair of GE 6SN7GT tubes with my WA5 and was wondering how good of driver tubes they actually were? I was tempted to upgrade to the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z but am not sure how much of a jump in performance there would be. Anybody have any suggestions?_

 

Can you post a picture of the GE?


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## mulveling

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ygm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One thing I've got to say if you are shopping ebay for 6SN7s is that don't let your enthusiasm get the best of you. I got a whole collection of second grade tubes, that I will probably never listen to again, because I was too anxious to buy. Watch the market for a month or so before purchasing - its not going away. Listen to the new tubes before buying any more. You'll save a lot of money and shelf space. =)_

 

Wiser words have not been spoken 'round here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I've also got a few small collections of tube types I don't need anymore, because I've upgraded (a few times now) to amps that don't use said types. Wish I had those purchase decisions back. The 6sn7 is one such type - I recently upgraded from a 6sn7 preamp to one that only uses 6H30pi.


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## Skylab

At least in the case of the 6SN7, the odds of your needing those tubes again are decent. And they aren't getting cheaper - best to hang on to them.


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## monsieurguzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you post a picture of the GE?_

 


 here is a picture of the GE 6SN7GTA tubes (made in US):







 Also, has anybody had any experience with these Rectifiers? They are 5AS4 Dumont rectifiers, which I haven't heard of before, but they are made in USA:


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## Skylab

I have some of those GE's. Not my favorite US 6SN7, but plenty good. I'm not sure the Shuguang will sound that much better than those (I have one, nice enough tube, but not that great, and nowhere near as good sounding as a real ECC32/CV181).


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeatFan12* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_6SN7s have really skyrocketed in prices the last couple of years. Thankfully, I stocked up and purchased several nice random lots a while back, tested them and was lucky and ended up with a nice stash.

 Here's an old pic of one of my drawers.







 I have several favorites, but two of my go-to:

 Tung Sol Tall







 Sylvania W Short










_

 



 I've got those sylvania w's! One of the best 6sn7's around! But getting really pricey...they are AS good as the taller metal base w's! But they are quite rare...

 One of the reasons the prices go up is that the 6sn7 is seen as one of the best driver tubes for 300B's!

 I also have a stash of a special jan/philips 6sn7, wich is also in the top 3 of best sounding 6sn7's.

 There's also a special russian type of tube that also belongs in the top 3 best 6sn7's.


 My top 3, jan/philips, sylvania w and the russian special type. You can't get any better then these imho!


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I recently got a pair of GE 6SN7GT tubes with my WA5 and was wondering how good of driver tubes they actually were? I was tempted to upgrade to the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z but am not sure how much of a jump in performance there would be. Anybody have any suggestions?_

 

Best driver tubes probably the sylvania w's...Shuguang will sound harsh in comparison to these sylvania w's simply one of the finest 6sn7's...


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## rosgr63

Anybody using Tung-Sol 6SN7 Black Glass Round Plates with or without Mica top supports?


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## Skylab

I use those as the driver tubes in my Cary SLP-05.


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## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use those as the driver tubes in my Cary SLP-05._

 

And what are your impressions?


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## Skylab

It's a very, very good sounding tube. I think the prices that they command nowadays are daft, but the tube is expensive for a reason - it's a great sounding tube.


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## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use those as the driver tubes in my Cary SLP-05._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that I actually try to FIND amps that use the 6SN7, precisely BECAUSE I have a large stash of them already and I want to use them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

With EIGHT (!) 6SN7's in that Cary preamp, yeah, you need that large stash 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, I'm not buying any more equipment with 6SN7's because I'm holding on to my 6SN7's as my own 401K when I retire, baby!


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With EIGHT (!) 6SN7's in that Cary preamp, yeah, you need that large stash 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, I'm not buying any more equipment with 6SN7's because I'm holding on to my 6SN7's as my own 401K when I retire, baby!_

 

LOL @ the 401K 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And yeah - I have need for a pretty good quantity of 6SN7's...'tis true


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## 9pintube

Yep! I'm one who loves to collect 6sn7s You guys have mentioned most of the ones I perfer......I use the RED Bases in my 300B (MID) amps I like the VT231 or Brown bases in my line stage.......The Holy Grail Sly.metal bases are to microphonic in my Stuff...Oh well count me as a 6sn7 man......... Not to start a new thread or anything but have any of you used or seen Bendix 6384 tubes (unreal build Quality) they're in my tweeter amps........Buy those suckers when you can!!!


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## spartan123

what Skylab said.... I collected a MASSIVE amount of 6SN7 tubes, so I look for amps that use these tubes. Luv them.


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## rosgr63

Any reference publications, books on the history, variety of 6SN7's?


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## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any reference publications, books on the history, variety of 6SN7's?_

 

Not sure about published reference books on these, but if you google around, there are dozens of articles/reviews about what is considered best and etc..


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## bdh

The reason why I love the 6SN7 so much is I have never found a tube that brings out the emotion in the music better than the 6SN7. However, in the amps I've used them as the driver, the headstage is narrower than other tubes and the soundstage more forward, which can be a good or bad thing, depending on the recording. Regardless, I've got to have at least one amp with a 6sn7 or 7n7 on hand for those albums that demand it.


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## markmaxx

I had a Cary SLP 05 preamp, with 8 Sylvania 6SN7 GTB with the green writing. I kept them thinking I would use them in my SP. amp. But I like the 2C51/5670 with the tube adapters, there a little more lively, little bigger sound stage and the bass is a little tighter and when needed to be,, there a little more inpact-full.(I don't think that's a word).
 I found this thread by using the search button and typing in "Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z" This really is not the end all in 6SN7 tubes?? I read a couple of reviews last night and was going to order a set but now I am not sure. 
 I will post a link to the review if I find it later..
 EDIT...http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories...s_cv181_e.html
 I don't know where you guys shop,, but the tubes below shipped to me from Drew at Moon audio (matched set) $500.00




 By null at 2010-03-28


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## rosgr63

Nice set of tubes!


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## Nicola

Hi all 6SN7 is beatiful tube, I have
 6SN7/VT231 Sylvania
 6SN7/VT231 Ken Rad black glass '42
 6SN7 Tungsol mouse ears
 6SN7GT Philips Miniwatt
 5692 Sylvania 
 I preferr 5692 the sound is sublime
 In this moment in my amplifier I use 7N7 , this tubes ('40-'50 years) is inexpensive alternative to Sylvania VT231.

 If we want I post photo of my tubes


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## Nicola

<img src="http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6600/suc53311.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>Shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Digimax+U-CA+5%2C+Kenox+U-CA+5+%2F+Kenox+U-CA+50&make=Samsung+Techwin">Digimax U-CA 5, Kenox U-CA 5 / Kenox U-CA 50</a> at 2009-12-01 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a Cary SLP 05 preamp, with 8 Sylvania 6SN7 GTB with the green writing. I kept them thinking I would use them in my SP. amp. But I like the 2C51/5670 with the tube adapters, there a little more lively, little bigger sound stage and the bass is a little tighter and when needed to be,, there a little more inpact-full.(I don't think that's a word).
 I found this thread by using the search button and typing in "Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z" This really is not the end all in 6SN7 tubes?? I read a couple of reviews last night and was going to order a set but now I am not sure. 
 I will post a link to the review if I find it later..
 EDIT...New CV181 for old [English]
 I don't know where you guys shop,, but the tubes below shipped to me from Drew at Moon audio (matched set) $500.00




 By null at 2010-03-28_

 

Triangular plate balck plate, '60 years?
 It's the same construction of 7N7 Sylvania '60 years (with copper grids)


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## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nicola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Triangular plate balck plate, '60 years?
 It's the same construction of 7N7 Sylvania '60 years (with copper grids)_

 

1940 so yes.


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## rosgr63

Nicola what do you think of your Tung-Sol mouse ears?


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## takezo

any of the T-shaped black plates sound pretty darn good. the sylvania and raytheon
 comes to mind.


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## monsieurguzel

I am looking into a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 "bad boy" tubes and am a little confused. Some websites say that they need the 3 holes in the plates and others say that it is marketing and even the 2 hole ones sound the same. Does anybody know if this is true?


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nicola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi all 6SN7 is beatiful tube, I have
 6SN7/VT231 Sylvania
 6SN7/VT231 Ken Rad black glass '42
 6SN7 Tungsol mouse ears
 6SN7GT Philips Miniwatt
 5692 Sylvania 
 I preferr 5692 the sound is sublime
 In this moment in my amplifier I use 7N7 , this tubes ('40-'50 years) is inexpensive alternative to Sylvania VT231.

 If we want I post photo of my tubes_

 

Sylvania indeed made a nice lot of 6sn7 tubes, i haven't heard a really bad sylvania...have heard quite harsh cheap chinese tubes though.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *takezo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_any of the T-shaped black plates sound pretty darn good. the sylvania and raytheon
 comes to mind._

 

I also have some raytheon's pretty good indeed but no match for the best 6sn7's.


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## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am looking into a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 "bad boy" tubes and am a little confused. Some websites say that they need the 3 holes in the plates and others say that it is marketing and even the 2 hole ones sound the same. Does anybody know if this is true?_

 

The tubes in the picture (above) are triangle, shaped (2 of them) and they have 5 holes with 2 ribs on the back of each of the 2 plates. If that helps.


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## Nicola

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nicola what do you think of your Tung-Sol mouse ears?_

 

Very good tubes, not detalied as VT231 Round Plate or Sylvania, Mouse Ear is hard to find I receive this tubes from my friend in Naples...buy many years ago.
 Great tubes is VT231 Black Glass worm, full, great bass
 Tomorrow post the photo of my tubes
 Good tubes have

Tubeseller.com


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## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nicola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very good tubes, not detalied as VT231 Round Plate or Sylvania, Mouse Ear is hard to find I receive this tubes from my friend in Naples...buy many years ago.
 Tomorrow post the photo of my tubes_

 

I have seen the (tung Sol) Mickey Mouse ears on e bay recently pricey though.

 I have never seen or heard of a Sylvania Mickey Mouse tube. 

2 matched 1952-53 Tung-Sol 'Micky Mouse' 6SN7-GT tubes - eBay (item 270547161443 end time Apr-13-10 16:01:50 PDT)
Tung Sol 6SN7 Black "T" Plate Mouse Ear 4 Mica - eBay (item 380191701675 end time Apr-25-10 10:59:24 PDT)


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## Nicola

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sylvania indeed made a nice lot of 6sn7 tubes, i haven't heard a really bad sylvania...have heard quite harsh cheap chinese tubes though._

 

I dont'like Russian or Chinese tubes, but my friend use Chinese metal base say good tube.
 This tubes is inexpensive but the sound is poor, hard, glass sound
 7N7 is the good way, two adapters on ebay and good tubes from 10$, really there is no comparison

 I search an 7N7 > 6SN7 adapter


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## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nicola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont'like Russian or Chinese tubes, but my friend use Chinese metal base say good tube.
 This tubes is inexpensive but the sound is poor, hard, glass sound
 7N7 is the good way, two adapters on ebay and good tubes from 10$, really there is no comparison

 I search an 7N7 > 6SN7 adapter_

 

Their are no 7N7 tubes on e bay for $10.00 unless I am blind,,Link?
 OK there are 4 tubes no matched pairs. No tung sol.
 No 7N7 tubes on audiogon at all. I would wait on the adapters,,LOL.


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## Chuke

Thanks for the great info everyone. I just picked up a Darkvoice 336i and I've been doing a lot of searching today for 6SN7's and 6AS7's...Head-Fi, eBay, web... good stuff.

 I think that I recall reading somewhere that the "w" designation is for low microphonics (e.g. 6SN7WGTA). Is that correct?


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am looking into a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 "bad boy" tubes and am a little confused. Some websites say that they need the 3 holes in the plates and others say that it is marketing and even the 2 hole ones sound the same. Does anybody know if this is true?_

 

Regardless of whether the 2-hole tubes sound the same or not (and I can neither confirm nor deny this), only the 3-hole tubes are "Bad Boys".

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sylvania indeed made a nice lot of 6sn7 tubes, i haven't heard a really bad sylvania...have heard quite harsh cheap chinese tubes though._

 

I agree - I have yet to hear a Sylvania 6SN7 that sounded anything less than very, very good.


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## KingStyles

I have a tungsol black oval plate on the way for my driver tube. Is there any sound difference between it and the round plates that came before and after it?


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## rosgr63

There is also a Ken-Rad Black Glass Round Plates Oval Top with spacers.
 Is it a rebranded Tung-Sol?
 Has anybody heard this?


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## KeeChoon

I have some Sylvania 6SN7GTs that have staggered flat plates and date codes 7/13, 2/52, 1/26. The 2/52 and 1/26 have 5 holes on one side and 2 on the other side.







 Are they rare?


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KingStyles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a tungsol black oval plate on the way for my driver tube. Is there any sound difference between it and the round plates that came before and after it?_

 

Oval plate? Are you sure you don't mean round plate with oval mica?


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## KingStyles

Quote:


 Oval plate? Are you sure you don't mean round plate with oval mica? 
 

Thats what I meant. Aparently they were only produced from 42-46. Before and after use the round mica.


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## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have seen the (tung Sol) Mickey Mouse ears on e bay recently pricey though.

 I have never seen or heard of a Sylvania Mickey Mouse tube. 
_

 

As far as I know only Tung-Sol made the Mickey Ears.
 However you can find some re-branded ones, I have one branded Motorola.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KingStyles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats what I meant. Aparently they were only produced from 42-46. Before and after use the round mica._

 

Everything I have read seems to indicate that the mica shape did not really matter w/r/t the round-plate tube - but the round-plates I have are oval-mica.


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## rosgr63

skylab, what's the difference between the 6sn7gt and 6sl7gt? or VT-231 and VT-229?

 EDIT I just found out that "The SN has an amplification factor of 20 and a plate resistance of about 7k7, whereas the SL is 70 and 44k respectively."


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## monsieurguzel

the 6sl7gt is a high gain tube compared to the 6sn7gt. From what I read, I don't think you can put one or the other since there is a 2-3X gain difference


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## rosgr63

That's right.
 I've read that "The SN has an amplification factor of 20 and a plate resistance of about 7k7, whereas the SL is 70 and 44k respectively."


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nicola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont'like Russian or Chinese tubes, but my friend use Chinese metal base say good tube.
 This tubes is inexpensive but the sound is poor, hard, glass sound
 7N7 is the good way, two adapters on ebay and good tubes from 10$, really there is no comparison

 I search an 7N7 > 6SN7 adapter_

 

There is one special russian tube that is up to the top of the 6sn7's but the prices are going up realy fast since they seem to know this a very good tube...I still think the w's are better though...or the jan/philips...They are my number 3 and i heard alot, so this russian is beating alot of common american, chinese etc. 6sn7 tubes...it really is very good...depending on your amp, it might even be first choice.

 So, yes, there are some rare good russian tubes but stash is drying up quickly and prices are going up to the point of more exotic american tubes.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chuke* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the great info everyone. I just picked up a Darkvoice 336i and I've been doing a lot of searching today for 6SN7's and 6AS7's...Head-Fi, eBay, web... good stuff.

 I think that I recall reading somewhere that the "w" designation is for low microphonics (e.g. 6SN7WGTA). Is that correct?_

 

I happen to know that the metal base w's are very microphonic! I own the small w's and they are silent...no humm at all.

 Jan designation means tighter tolerance and better build quality of the tubes since they were made for the army/navy!

 The w's i got are 40's army/navy tubes and usually this also means longer lifespan then normal tubes. Up to 10.000 hours.


----------



## smeggy

sylvania short bottle brown base W military tubes here. Sooo nice


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *smeggy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sylvania short bottle brown base W military tubes here. Sooo nice_

 

They are one of the best!


----------



## monsieurguzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I happen to know that the metal base w's are very microphonic! I own the small w's and they are silent...no humm at all.

 Jan designation means tighter tolerance and better build quality of the tubes since they were made for the army/navy!

 The w's i got are 40's army/navy tubes and usually this also means longer lifespan then normal tubes. Up to 10.000 hours._

 

Actually technically, they say that the JAN VT-231 is just a code designated for military tubes. If you find a civilian tube that is the exact same year / construction as an equivalent military tube, they are said to be exactly the same in sound. The neat thing about the JAN designated tubes though, is that you know they are from the 40's - early 50's since they were all from war-time period.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is one special russian tube that is up to the top of the 6sn7's but the prices are going up realy fast since they seem to know this a very good tube...I still think the w's are better though...or the jan/philips...They are my number 3 and i heard alot, so this russian is beating alot of common american, chinese etc. 6sn7 tubes...it really is very good...depending on your amp, it might even be first choice.

 So, yes, there are some rare good russian tubes but stash is drying up quickly and prices are going up to the point of more exotic american tubes._

 

1578 = 6SN7 = 6N8S Metal base HOLE PLATES are the bees knees!

 The ones with the holes in the side of the plates are the ones to go for.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually technically, they say that the JAN VT-231 is just a code designated for military tubes. If you find a civilian tube that is the exact same year / construction as an equivalent military tube, they are said to be exactly the same in sound. The neat thing about the JAN designated tubes though, is that you know they are from the 40's - early 50's since they were all from war-time period._

 

No, it has been reported that tubes with the jan designation indeed have longer lifespan and thicker materials inside. This was the case especially for navy tubes that were used in airoplanes that had to withstand quite some impact...these tubes are all higher quality! But i agree that the term is a bit of a contraversy...

 Just like the russian, there might be 2 or 3 variants of one tube...the russian has 3 variants with different holes in the plate, rectangular, round and some other.....Real jan designated tubes never sound bad...

http://thetubestore.com/tubeinfo.html#q11
 11. What does "JAN" in a tube name mean?
 The JAN designation is found on many American made new old stock tubes, and stands for "Joint Army Navy". It means they were originally built for the military, often with improvements in their construction and quality control.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1578 = 6SN7 = 6N8S Metal base HOLE PLATES are the bees knees!

 The ones with the holes in the side of the plates are the ones to go for._

 

Yes, someone reported to me that there are at least 3 variants and the one with the whole in the plates sound best...(just like the round plates?) still, the w's are a perfect match for the russians or slightly better.

 They are also getting expensive now, i still have a few but don't care too much for them in my amp, a bit on the soft side...the jan/philips and the w's are better in my amp at least. Also better as a driver tube, since i used a w or a jan/philips in front of 2 russians and it sounded much better...meaning the russians are better for output tube and not as a driver. Also confirmed by others...

 But they are certainly in the top 3 of best 6sn7's.


----------



## tourmaline

I see the REAL 1578's are not for sale anymore...only copy's or so called close tubes...The 1578 is only real if it has the 1578 designation stamped on it, so don't fall for this trap!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see the REAL 1578's are not for sale anymore...only copy's or so called close tubes...The 1578 is only real if it has the 1578 designation stamped on it, so don't fall for this trap!_

 

There are some 1578's without the holes in the plates but with the 1578 marked on the glass.
 And there are some 6N8S's from the Melz factory (70's Tubes) with the holes in the side of the plates.
 Are they better or worst than the 1578's which don't have the holes?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are some 1578's without the holes in the plates but with the 1578 marked on the glass.
 And there are some 6N8S's from the Melz factory (70's Tubes) with the holes in the side of the plates.
 Are they better or worst than the 1578's which don't have the holes?_

 

I can put a picture of mine on here...so you can see for yourself, i don't have the toprated tubes though, i had one but gave it away because i use other top end 6sn7's in my setup...as i wrote before, there are reports of at least 3 variations of the 1578 tube...the best sounding is the one with the round hole...

 Either way, the real 1578, wich have blue stamps...all sound good and much better then the pack of the 6sn7's. just not as good as the w's imho.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can put a picture of mine on here...so you can see for yourself, i don't have the toprated tubes though, i had one but gave it away because i use other top end 6sn7's in my setup...as i wrote before, there are reports of at least 3 variations of the 1578 tube...the best sounding is the one with the round hole...

 Either way, the real 1578, wich have blue stamps...all sound good and much better then the pack of the 6sn7's. just not as good as the w's imho._

 

Please post a pic when you have time for reference.Thanks


----------



## rosgr63

tourmaline any luck with the photos?


----------



## regal

I have a pair of 6SN7Gt's National Union. I really like their sound but they have a 60hz hum with my amp. None of my other 6SN7s do this (RCA V231s, various Sylvanias, Baldwin, etc.) IOW's All my other 6SN7's are silent without this hum.

 Is this a characteristic of NU 6SN7GT's or do a have a bad pair?


----------



## Skylab

I have a pair of NU tubes - black glass - quiet as a mouse.


----------



## rosgr63

skylab how would you grade your NU Black Glass tubes?


----------



## Skylab

Excellent tubes. A little on the bassy side, generally warm and inviting, good detail, but not the camps in that regard. Nice tubes though - competitive to the mid-upper tier of 6SN7's, but short of the very best.


----------



## rosgr63

Skylab which are your top 5's?


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excellent tubes. A little on the bassy side, generally warm and inviting, good detail, but not the camps in that regard. Nice tubes though - competitive to the mid-upper tier of 6SN7's, but short of the very best._

 

Yes that it was I hear too, it is an excellent match for my hybrid amp which can have a little too SS tightish bass. Just wanted to know if I had a problem pair with mine and the hum, sounds like I need to find another pair.

 Thanks for the input.


----------



## pabbi1

Count me as not a fan of 6sn7/vt-231. While I loved the Wheatfield HA-2 (a two year relationship), and liked the EC HD300 (whirlwind romance), something was still lacking that even the most exotic variant could not sate.

 So, I'll never have (nor build) another 6sn7 based amp - not even a Stacker II. 

 May also say the same for el34/6ca7, but at least that door is not quite closed. The 6sn7 door is closed, locked, nailed, bricked over and painted... just a fading memory.

 On to 6h30DR, 6n23p, and 6s4a... well, and I did just buy a 304tl (VT129) with a socket.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skylab which are your top 5's?_

 

Probably something like this:

 1. Mullard ECC32/CV181 (which really isn't a 6SN7, but where it will work is terrific)
 2. Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY
 3. Mullard ECC33
 4. Tung-Sol black-glass round-plate 6SN7GT
 5. Sylvania 6SN7W metal base


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Skylab.
 What about the Osram B65 and Brimar 6SN7GT?


----------



## regal

My search for a pair of NU's came up empty but I found of NOS Mouse Ear Tong-Sols for cheap, going to give them a shot.


----------



## rosgr63

They are nice regal, ask if they have a crack in the base, it's common with Mouse ears


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are nice regal, ask if they have a crack in the base, it's common with Mouse ears_

 

Also buying cheap most of my 6sn7s have cracked bases, usually no impact to the sound.


 What about Kenrad's, they look similiar to the NU's I'm seeking. They are more available, do they have a similiar sound dignature to the NU's?


 Also looked ofr NU 6f8g but they seem unavailable as well.


----------



## rosgr63

regal I've been using a cracked base TS Mouse Ears for sometime now no problems.
 I mentioned it so you could get them cheap, some sellers don't disclose this kind of info in case of hair cracks etc.
 Sorry I can't comment on the NU-KR's as I have Ken-Rads, but never used them, and I don't have any NU's.
 I am sure Skylab will come to our rescue!


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Skylab.
 What about the Osram B65 and Brimar 6SN7GT?_

 

I don't have either.


----------



## FrankCooter

The 6sn7 is one of the all time greats, but if you're into DIY, there are many better alternatives. 112A > 26 > 27 > 76 > 7n7 > 6sn7. Each step up the ladder makes a significant improvement.


----------



## KingStyles

Man those osram b65 are rare. I been looking for a week for one. Might have found one though.


----------



## rosgr63

Be quick to get it and be prepared to pay a premium.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote:


 Be quick to get it and be prepared to pay a premium. 
 

For sure, I found a matched set going for 999. I just need one so I am not planning on paying for a matched set.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Rather than brave the world of NOS 6SN7s, has anybody tried the Sophia Electric 6SN7 currently in production? Are they competitive for their price?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Those are no fun
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Those are still being made.


----------



## Xcalibur255

If they perform as well as NOS tubes it can take a lot of the frustration out of finding a good sounding tube.


----------



## KingStyles

By what I have read only, there are plenty of cheaper nos tubes that will do better.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those are no fun
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Those are still being made._

 

That's right!

 Big Poppa GEC make B65's which also sell at a premium.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KingStyles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By what I have read only, there are plenty of cheaper nos tubes that will do better._

 

That was certainly my experience. The issue with the Sophias is they are not cheap. I have a pair, and they sound good, but not better than a basic pair of NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTB's, which can easily be had for $30/pair.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was certainly my experience. The issue with the Sophias is they are not cheap. I have a pair, and they sound good, but not better than a basic pair of NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTB's, which can easily be had for $30/pair._

 

This is pretty much what I was wondering. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I need adapters to even use the 6SN7 with my amp, but my curiosity about them has been steadily growing so I'm trying to figure out what I should try first if I go down this road.


----------



## rosgr63

You can't get wrong with a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB's.
 It's all about trying out and see what you like.
 With the tubes Skylab mentioned in his top 5 you will be near perfection, can't get much better than that.
 If you are just starting your 6SN7 adventure buy some cheap ones for starters and take it from there.
 Be warned it can get very addictive!


----------



## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I recently got a pair of GE 6SN7GT tubes with my WA5 and was wondering how good of driver tubes they actually were? I was tempted to upgrade to the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z but am not sure how much of a jump in performance there would be. Anybody have any suggestions?_

 

I have the same pair of GE that came with my WA5LE, just tried them out. Ouch way to harsh coming from my Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z / 6SN7GT matched pair, Grade A. 
 I only used the GE for a short time at a lower volume than my CV181-Z and my ears still hurt.
 From what I heard of the GEs, the CV181-Z did everything better with no ear fatigue what so ever even at a much higher volume level. 
 imo the Treasure is a much better tube, and maybe that's why Grant is always out of stock on these tubes.

 I am now looking at the TUNG-SOL 6SN7 MATCHED ROUND PLATE CTL 6SN7GT NOS late forties. Just to make sure the Treasure are as good as there is. 

 ss


----------



## Skylab

I have a pair of Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z as well, and they are indeed very nice tubes. I do prefer real Mullard CV181's, but these have become very, very expensive. I thought it was a reach when I was buying them NOS for $150 each - now they seem to go for $250+ each. That makes the Shugie a more affordable option, especially as they have come down in price.


----------



## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a pair of Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z That makes the Shugie a more affordable option, especially as they have come down in price._

 

Interesting, I didn't think that the North American Shuguang Treasure premium grade 'A' had come down in price. Yes I know you can get lesser grade Shugie from China sellers or even from Grant Audio. But to me those lesser grade Shugie are like NOS, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

 ss


----------



## Skylab

Maybe you're right - I didn't look on the ads I have seen for the grade. I got mine "Grade A" from Grant Audio shortly after they because available - and they were pricey.


----------



## sillysally

I have a line on a matched pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7GT oval mica [1942-46] NOS.

 What do you think of these in my SET 300B WA5LE? My WA5 is the latest version of the WA5 and it has the parts upgrade.

 I must say I do love the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z in my system. However I only have about 390 hours on it. 

 ss


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sillysally* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a line on a matched pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7GT oval mica [1942-46] NOS.

 What do you think of these in my SET 300B WA5LE? My WA5 is the latest version of the WA5 and it has the parts upgrade.

 I must say I do love the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z in my system. However I only have about 390 hours on it. 

 ss_

 

Are these Tung-Sol Round Plates, Black Glass?


----------



## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are these Tung-Sol Round Plates, Black Glass?_

 

Yes, and this is how they are described by the seller. 
 "Hi the tubes are NOS I have not taken photos of the boxes but are available.According to the box dates they are made from 1942-1944.No cracks off-course.I hope that you understand that we are talking about new old stock tubes.My brother an ex mil technician had purchased these tubes in the late sixties and stored them in our basement.Started selling them only 3 years ago on ebay now its our last pieces.
 Tubes are tested with the Centrad tube tester and from 1-10 they are easily take a 10!!!"

 See attached files for pictures.


----------



## rosgr63

I also buy my tubes from John and they are first class for sure.
 Excellent choice.


----------



## Varma

I think there are two Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Round Plate" versions. One with the round mica which were manufactured till 1942 and the other with the oval mica which were manufactured from 1942 - 1946. 

 I have a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Round Mica tube, and in my system its the best sounding tube. Close second are Brimar 13D2 and Brimar 6SN7GTY.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Varma* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think there are two Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Round Plate" versions. One with the round mica which were manufactured till 1942 and the other with the oval mica which were manufactured from 1942 - 1946. 

 I have a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Round Mica tube, and in my system its the best sounding tube. Close second are Brimar 13D2 and Brimar 6SN7GTY._

 

I think that the round mica were made untill 1942 and then after 1945 or 1946.

 Do you rate this better than the 6SN7GTY?


----------



## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also buy my tubes from John and they are first class for sure.
 Excellent choice._

 

Small world. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I will post my findings.

 Thanks.

 ss


----------



## markmaxx

Slideshow for 6SN7 VT-231 CV1988 5692 *

 Some nice pictures of the diffrent 6SN7 tubes..(I was looking for a picture of the Brimar 6SN7 GTY.

 Is this a good price? http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....sn7gty-CV-1988

 I guess $100.00 each is a little high...http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120552764207
 $39.53 for a pair.*


----------



## Skylab

That audiogon listing and ebay auction are for different tubes. The Brimar 6SN7GT is not the same as the CV1988/6SN7GTY. The latter is brown bass, black glass.


----------



## rosgr63

skylab, I agree.
 markmaxx $100 for one 6SN7GTY I think is a fair price for a lot less than that you may not be getting the real GTY.


----------



## regal

Well my too good to be true Mouse ear Tung-Sols got here. One tube was great the other had a slight hiss. I cleaned the pins and let them burn in over night, no more hiss.

 They seem to have a foward midrange, which I like (and I listen to Grados!) an articulate bass but not too articulate like the RCA VT231's can have. Not sure the midrange does enough tube magic to my guitar Gods for me but all in all a very balanced tube. Going to spend more time with them this weekend.


----------



## Skylab

Cleaning the pins is always important with vintage tubes. Good on you for thinking of it.


----------



## rosgr63

Nice choice regal enjoy them, I find my Mouse Ears nice with strong base, haven't checked my RS1's with it yet, just the HD650's.


----------



## rosgr63

skylab how do you apply the Flitz on the pins, with wire wool or otherwise?


----------



## Skylab

I brush them first with very fine steel wool, and then wipe off, and then put on Caig ProGold.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks, I do the same but just got some Flitz and was wondering about it.
 Do you use silclear at all?


----------



## Skylab

No - just Caig ProGold.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I brush them first with very fine steel wool, and then wipe off, and then put on Caig ProGold._

 

Looks like they changed the name, I ordered a bottle. Thanks for the tip.

DeoxITÂ® Gold G-Series


----------



## sachu

Regal, I've been meaning to ask you, have you tried any RCA 6CG7 cleartops in your stacker 2? 

 What tubes have you found to work best for you?

 I am a bit of a cheap person and don't like to spend on obscure tubes that cost half my rent money..
 What would you suggest to try as an alternative to the RCA 6CG7 cleartops which is what i use currently that would be an improvement over it?


----------



## rosgr63

Tried the Flitz polish yesterday, it's great.


----------



## regal

Skylab, Have you compared the National Union Gt vs the Ken Rad VT231. Descriptions seem similar and construction a bit too. I have a bad pair of the NU's that hum but the mid-bass is very seductive and a good match for my hybrid amp in that it keeps it from being too sharp. The mid range of the NU is a little too recessed for my tastes but I like whats there. The Ken-Rads aren't much more expensive than NU's these days so I was considering getting them instead to replace the bad pair of NU's.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I am a bit of a cheap person and don't like to spend on obscure tubes that cost half my rent money.._

 

Join the club! "We cheap bastards".


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Regal, I've been meaning to ask you, have you tried any RCA 6CG7 cleartops in your stacker 2? 

 What tubes have you found to work best for you?

 I am a bit of a cheap person and don't like to spend on obscure tubes that cost half my rent money..
 What would you suggest to try as an alternative to the RCA 6CG7 cleartops which is what i use currently that would be an improvement over it?_

 

Well I have the newer octal only board now so I haven't tried the 6CG7's, however I have tried the RCA VT231 (6SN7) version. Great midrange but the mid-bass is way to sharp/harsh. I'll PM you a link to an auction for a pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7 similiar to mine that looks like a super deal.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I'll PM you a link to an auction for a pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7 similiar to mine that looks like a super deal._

 

Whats the going rate for the Tung-Sol mouse ear 6SN7.(NOS.) $100.00? Edit,,Just hit buy it now on a set of the mickey mouse ear Tung-Sol!!


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whats the going rate for the Tung-Sol mouse ear 6SN7.(NOS.) $100.00?_

 

I paid $25, but typically I saw $50 to $100 when looking.


----------



## rosgr63

I bought mine or $28.80, no cracks, nice tube.
 For a matched pair you'd pay around $80.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I paid $25, but typically I saw $50 to $100 when looking._

 

Have you seen the Tung Sol 6SN7 with the oval top and black glass that EVERYONE wants for under $225 each?? NOS??


----------



## rosgr63

There's also a nice pair of CV1988 Brimar Red Base for auction at ebay, maybe you'd like to have a look!

 EDIT I think they'll go cheap ~$80


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you seen the Tung Sol 6SN7 with the oval top and black glass that EVERYONE wants for under $225 each?? NOS??_

 


 No but the history of that tube turned me off, apperantly they were dirt cheap. Then some tube seller bought a crap load for pennies and started telling all the audio boards how great they are, the price has been really high on these ever since. I'd love to hear them but I'm a cheap person too.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No but the history of that tube turned me off, apperantly they were dirt cheap. Then some tube seller bought a crap load for pennies and started telling all the audio boards how great they are, the price has been really high on these ever since. I'd love to hear them but I'm a cheap person too._

 

That must of been a while ago, the Tung sol has been legendary since I got into headphones..






 I am sure the army and navy, threw warehouses full away as junk and 40 years later we are chasing them waving hundred dollar bills at them.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That must of been a while ago, the Tung sol has been legendary since I got into headphones..





 I am sure the army and navy, threw warehouses full away as junk and 40 years later we are chasing them waving hundred dollar bills at them._

 

Not waving but burning hundred dollar bills!

 I am guilty to!


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That must of been a while ago, the Tung sol has been legendary since I got into headphones..

 ._

 

If you buy a pair please let us know your impressions.


----------



## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not waving but burning hundred dollar bills!

 I am guilty to!_

 

Ya me to, what a small world you and I got them from John.

 This is the type of tube (Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plate 1940 to 1946) for a perfectly matched pair NOS, if you have to ask you can't afford it.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But they really will have a run for the money to beat my Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z / 6SN7GT matched pair.
 ss


----------



## rosgr63

sillysally John is first class.
 I bought a special TS Black Glass with square mica from him as well as my round plates etc, etc, etc....


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sillysally* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ya me to, what a small world you and I got them from John.

 This is the type of tube (Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plate 1940 to 1946) for a perfectly matched pair NOS, if you have to ask you can't afford it.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 You got that right..

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sillysally* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But they really will have a run for the money to beat my Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z / 6SN7GT matched pair.
 ss_

 

 Really? I have read some mixed reviews.. May ponder (is that a word?) this, option. Woo Audio wants $320.00 for the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z / 6SN7GT matched set,,they are not giving those things away. I bet I could find a set of Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plate 1940 to 1946 for close to that, No? Would you rather have the Tung-Sol or the Shuguang Treasure? Final answer...


----------



## KingStyles

Quote:


 Have you seen the Tung Sol 6SN7 with the oval top and black glass that EVERYONE wants for under $225 each?? NOS?? 
 

Well, I have mine. It only cost $140. It seemd they average about $175 on the market right now per tube.


----------



## monsieurguzel

The price of tung sols have actually shot up in price a lot lately and a lot people are selling them for about 400 for a good pair of them, which is a lot of money for a tube that is 70 years old almost and can crap out on you any second. I actually tried out a few different 6SN7 tubes on my WA5 amp, including the Ken Rad VT-231, the Sylvania 6SN7W, and the RCA 6SN7GT which are all quite good tubes. My favorite is probably the Syvania 6SN7W but they are very microphonic unfortunately. Ultimately though, I've given up on NOS tubes and am tired of finding decent old tubes since my previous pair of supposed 6SN7Ws died on me a few weeks after owning them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The other day I decided to spring for a pair of Shuguang CV181-Z (Grade A) tubes and am very excited, if only for the fact that I know they are brand new built with modern day technology, extremely well matched, tested on many different levels, and have a 1 year warranty.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The price of tung sols have actually shot up in price a lot lately and a lot people are selling them for about 400 for a good pair of them, which is a lot of money for a tube that is 70 years old almost and can crap out on you any second. I actually tried out a few different 6SN7 tubes on my WA5 amp, including the Ken Rad VT-231, the Sylvania 6SN7W, and the RCA 6SN7GT which are all quite good tubes. My favorite is probably the Syvania 6SN7W but they are very microphonic unfortunately. Ultimately though, I've given up on NOS tubes and am tired of finding decent old tubes since my previous pair of supposed 6SN7Ws died on me a few weeks after owning them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The other day I decided to spring for a pair of Shuguang CV181-Z (Grade A) tubes and am very excited, if only for the fact that I know they are brand new built with modern day technology, extremely well matched, tested on many different levels, and have a 1 year warranty._

 

I would love to hear, what you think of the Shuguang CV181-Z.


----------



## sillysally

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You got that right..

 Really? I have read some mixed reviews.. May ponder (is that a word?) this, option. Woo Audio wants $320.00 for the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z / 6SN7GT matched set,,they are not giving those things away. I bet I could find a set of Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plate 1940 to 1946 for close to that, No? Would you rather have the Tung-Sol or the Shuguang Treasure? Final answer..._

 

I don't have the Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plate 1940 to 1946 yet, they are on there way (i hope). 
 The biggest reason why I got the Tung Sol is so I had what is considered by many to be one of the best 6SN7s ever made to compare to my CV181-Zs. 
 I am also running in my system a pair of Shuguang Treasure (from Jack also) 300B-Z in my amp and a pair of new redesigned EML 5U4Gs in my PSU. 

 Actually Woo audio is a very fair price for the Shuguang Treasure premium grade A North American with a 1 year replacement. And that's saying Woo can keep them in stock. Grant Audio the North American distributor for these tubes has a waiting list and you must pay in full to get on that list. 

 Both my Treasure CV181 and 300B came from Woo, these tubes are a exact match and they are also marked as right and left. 

 ss 

 ss


----------



## monsieurguzel

I am actually wondering how much effect the 6SN7 tube affects the performance of the WA5 amp in general. The tube is being used as a driver tube for the 300B power tube. I know a lot of people on forums judge the 6SN7 used as a power tube in amps. I'm guessing that when used as power tubes, the importance of having highly matched tubes as well as really high end tubes makes a much bigger difference in sonic characteristics than when used as a driver tube.


----------



## sillysally

You could be right, but after trying the GE 6SN7GT that came standard with my amp also, that's when I started to look for one more high end set of 6SN7s. I found a fairly big difference between the GE 6SN7GT and the CV181-Zs. 
 Also keep in mind that I had close to 400 hours on the CV181-Zs so they are broken in , however my WA5LE still needs a lot more time before it is broken in.

 ss


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am actually wondering how much effect the 6SN7 tube affects the performance of the WA5 amp in general. The tube is being used as a driver tube for the 300B power tube. I know a lot of people on forums judge the 6SN7 used as a power tube in amps. I'm guessing that when used as power tubes, the importance of having highly matched tubes as well as really high end tubes makes a much bigger difference in sonic characteristics than when used as a driver tube._

 

The 6SN7 is making the gain so it has a big stamp when used in the driver stage, its also being pushed to its limits driving a 300B.


----------



## rosgr63

Different drivers affect the amp's sound.
 The CV181 is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7s.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Different drivers affect the amp's sound.
 The CV181 is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7s._

 

Thats contrary to what I have been reading.

 The Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z is advertised as a 6SN7.

  Quote:


 Shuguang Treasure 'Black Bottle' CV181-Z (6SN7GT) - MSRP US$320/pair Premium Grade A

 Current stock is sold out. Pre-order with payment please. 

 Although this tube is modeled as CV181 by the Chinese manufacturer - Shuguang, please do refer to the tube data at bottom of this page to check compability with 6SN7 / 6N8P tubes. The treasure CV181-Z has heater current of 0.6A, not 0.9A as typical CV181 tube does. A comparable RCA 6SN7-GTA tube date has been added at the bottom of page for your convenience to compare. 
 

http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/...c%20cv-181.pdf

http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/RCA-6sn7%20spec.gif


----------



## mrarroyo

If you all have the opportunity try the Russian 6H8C from the early '80s, I am currently using it in my MPX3 and I love its sound. Cheers.


----------



## rosgr63

Miguel is it the one with the perforated(5 holes) plates?


----------



## mrarroyo

If you mean the rectangular holes on the sides of the vertical grey plates, then yes. Hope the enclosed picture helps.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote:


 Miguel is it the one with the perforated(5 holes) plates? 
 

Are you talking about this one?


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you all have the opportunity try the Russian 6H8C from the early '80s, I am currently using it in my MPX3 and I love its sound. Cheers._

 

Russian 1960's Vintage 6H8C/6SN7 are $15.00 each 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 at Up-Scale Audio. Is the 1960 diffrent than the 1980 version?


----------



## rosgr63

As far as I know, the 1578's as per KingStyles' picture from the Melz factory 1970's vintage are about $100 each.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skylab, Have you compared the National Union Gt vs the Ken Rad VT231. Descriptions seem similar and construction a bit too. I have a bad pair of the NU's that hum but the mid-bass is very seductive and a good match for my hybrid amp in that it keeps it from being too sharp. The mid range of the NU is a little too recessed for my tastes but I like whats there. The Ken-Rads aren't much more expensive than NU's these days so I was considering getting them instead to replace the bad pair of NU's._

 

I have 3 pairs of the Black-Glass Ken-Rad VT-231, and while they look similar to the NU, I don;t think they are. The Ken-Rad have much more bass.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No but the history of that tube turned me off, apperantly they were dirt cheap. Then some tube seller bought a crap load for pennies and started telling all the audio boards how great they are, the price has been really high on these ever since. I'd love to hear them but I'm a cheap person too._

 

I think that story is urban legend BS, no offense. The world does not work like that. One person cannot continually hype a tube such that gobs of people will continue to think it's great even if it isn't. I have heard a LOT of 6SN7's - I own several hundred. And the BGRP TS is a terrific sounding tube.

 JMO, of course


----------



## tagosaku

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have 3 pairs of the Black-Glass Ken-Rad VT-231, and while they look similar to the NU, I don;t think they are. The Ken-Rad have much more bass._

 

Think Ken-Rad has a thin line of getter at the bottom of the glass and NU has a thin line of clear glass at the bottom. Also, NU comes in grey too.


----------



## pataburd

The 6SN7 is a tube I have been thoroughly enjoying for years now (in amps like the MPX3, Darkvoice 336i and Bada PH-12). The Bada, like the MPX3, uses three of them. Right now the Fitz-Maxxed PH-12 is tubed with 1x RCA 6SN7GT/tall bottle/flat, black plates and 2x Sylvania 6SN7GTB/short bottle/green label. I like the synergy and complimentarity of this combination.

 One of my favorite tubes is the Sylvania 6SN7W/metal base. A matched pair of these running behind the Mullard CV181/black base was a great combination with the MPX3. My favorite combination on the Bada consists of 1x Mullard ECC33 with 2x Russian 1578.


----------



## jamato8

On the Tungsol Black glass round plate, I have always found them to be excellent and never that plentiful and I have been using them off and on since the 1980's when tubes were still pretty darn cheap. I have some in NOS and some with some low hours and they are a treasure. I have a matched pair in Navy boxes that are a thick deep imprinted blue lettering. The boxes are as pretty as the tubes. Anyway, they are great tubes and were round plates because they were made on the 6SL7 tooling, as he 6SL7's were being made in round plate. The sound is affected by the electron interaction of a round plate vs a square or other shaped plate.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think that story is urban legend BS, no offense. The world does not work like that. . And the BGRP TS is a terrific sounding tube.

 JMO, of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I value you opinion, so now these are on my must have list. Damn you


----------



## rosgr63

Be careful regal you are going to become an addict!
 BTW good choice, the BGRP TS are nice tubes.
 After you get those think about the Brimar GTY Mullard ECC33 GEC B65 and the list goes on!


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Be careful regal you are going to become an addict!
 !_

 

Already there just ordered a replacement pair of NU's that are supposed to be dead quiet. I really liked their sound in spite of the hum mine had so I'm giving them another shot.

 I'm keeping my eyes open for the TSRP's but in an off-brand, I'm hoping there still some left for cheap.


----------



## rosgr63

If I remember well, there were some on ebay a couple of weeks ago.
 I'll PM you if I see any.


----------



## regal

thankyou


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I'm keeping my eyes open for the TSRP's but in an off-brand, I'm hoping there still some left for cheap._

 

Smart move. There were ones branded Emerson and Arcturus. Same tube, usually sold for much less


----------



## rosgr63

Yes they were selling on ebay not long ago.


----------



## jamato8

Yes Arcturus rebranded but often with tubes that were suspect and did not meet the demands of the originator. In the early years of the 1920's and 30's, Arcturus was a good proud brand but then went defunct and the label was used to rebrand. Most of the time the tubes were inferior. There were many rebranders early on with so many different names that no one could keep track of them. I have what are clearly some Sylvania balloon 27's from around 1930 that are NOS but measure all over the place. Not because they went bad but because they didn't fall into the correct range after being made. These tubes would be sold to rebranders and away they went. The name Arcturus became one of them.


----------



## shogo33

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Denys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I wonder about Sophia Electric 6SN7....anyone heard them ??

 Denys_

 

Yes, i've got some 'grade C' Sophia 6SN7 tubes from Washington Audio. They're not bad as current prod tubes. In my system, they sound rather neutral providing minimal colouration to the sound. I had some NOS RCA's and they sounded much warmer with a fatter bass and more rounded high's which may work for brighter systems. But with my tube amp, using quad 6L6c's (Tungsols) and JAN Cetron 5R4W rectifiers, it already provides a smooth and warm sound, so the Sophias fit in well. When running the amp with 5AR4 rectifiers with KT66's power tubes, the Sophia's tend to sound brighter, which is more suitable to rock, pop music.


----------



## rosgr63

Has anybody tried the Synergy HiFi 6SN7 yet?


----------



## sillysally

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> sillysally John is first class.
> I bought a special TS Black Glass with square mica from him as well as my round plates etc, etc, etc....


 
   
  I got my first pair of TS Black Glass round plates (1942) from John last Monday, there is no question that the matched pair I got are brand new NOS. They are perfectly matched and more importantly perfectly balanced (R/L) and imo because of how well these tubes display the imagery 3D sound-stage of the audio the R/L balancing when used as drive tubes is Paramount.
   
  Anyway I agree John is a first class act and for these tubes a rare find and his prices are very fair for these tubes.


  
  Quote: 





> Quote:markmaxx
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *sillysally* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 Final answer is the Tung Sol that i got last Monday. Matter of fact I just ordered a second pair of the TS from John today.
   
  ss


----------



## rosgr63

Pleased you liked the TS's sillysally.
  They are not cheap but are well worth their money.
   
  EDIT Enjoy your new pair!


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





sillysally said:


> I got my first pair of TS Black Glass round plates (1942) from John last Monday, there is no question that the matched pair I got are brand new NOS. They are perfectly matched and more importantly perfectly balanced (R/L) and imo because of how well these tubes display the imagery 3D sound-stage of the audio the R/L balancing when used as drive tubes is Paramount.
> 
> Anyway I agree John is a first class act and for these tubes a rare find and his prices are very fair for these tubes.
> 
> ...


 

 Can you send me a link to where you got your Tung-Sol tubes,,,Please.. Thanks for the comparison.. I am burning in a set of Tung-Sol mouse ears, for my WA22, I like them so far..With the HD 800, probably not enough gain for the K 1000. FYI. I bought the Balancing Act from the guy who was selling his spot in line,,LOL.


----------



## sillysally

Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> Can you send me a link to where you got your Tung-Sol tubes,,,Please.. Thanks for the comparison.. I am burning in a set of Tung-Sol mouse ears, for my WA22, I like them so far..With the HD 800, probably not enough gain for the K 1000. FYI. I bought the Balancing Act from the guy who was selling his spot in line,,LOL.


 
   
  Sure NP. John lives in Greece but there seems to be NP using USPS to ship. My first set was shipped on a Monday and got the tubes the following Monday. Well packaged and exactly what John said they would be like (Brand New). My second set was shipped last Wednesday  and John supply the tracking number so I know there on there way, probably have arrived in the USA by now but USPS tracking info is very slow to update.
   
  ss
   
  btw, As I have said these tubes take at-least 32 hours of break-in maybe more, that's all the hours I have on the first set.
   
  I should also add that my Amp is a WA5LE maxxed + ALPS RK50. The other tubes I am running in this amp and psu are
  Shugang Treasure 300B matched pair, Grade A and  EML mesh 5U4G rectifier tubes pair.


----------



## markmaxx

Thanks
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.............


----------



## rosgr63

How does the Mullard ECC33 sound with the SP Extreme?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> How does the Mullard ECC33 sound with the SP Extreme?


 

 REALLY good.  That was the driver tube I used for a long time, when I was afraid of using an ECC32 for fear of pulling too much current from the transformer (before I had the transformer replaced).


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks skylab, in that case It's time to try out my ECC33.
  With the upgraded transformer would it be safe to use the ECC2 or is it pushing it a bit.
  BTW the Osram 6AS7G's sound great IMHO better than TS 5998's and WE421A's.
  I am using a Brimer 6SN7GT Black Glass for my driver, great tube.


----------



## Skylab

With the Electra-print transformer that is in mine, the ECC32 is no problem at all.
   
  And yeah, the GEC 6AS7G is my favorite of all of that tube type - not surprised to like the Osram


----------



## flood

hi there, newbie on this forum (kind of got drawn into it through a transaction with rosgr63 - great guy and great transaction!) - does anybody have a good idea for a DIY headphone amp design based around the 6SN7, perhaps in conjunction with E88CC and 6SL7? 
   
  I'd like to mention that I'm primarily a guitar amp builder, although I have done a couple of simple hi-fi designs (Yaqin tube buffer, Oddwatt) in the past. The best headphones I have are AKG k141 Studio...


----------



## rosgr63

Welcome to Head-Fi,
  There's a lot of expertese to guide you, enjoy the hobby.
  Many thanks for the great ECC33's.
  I tried one of them driving a pair of RCA 6AS7G's and it sounds great!
  skylab is so right!


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> does anybody have a good idea for a DIY headphone amp design based around the 6SN7, perhaps in conjunction with E88CC and 6SL7?


 
  Welcome to headfi. You may want to post a thread in the diy section. Im sure someone there would have some info. Even though he is led about by his love of tubes, rosgr seems to be a great guy.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Welcome to headfi. You may want to post a thread in the diy section. Im sure someone there would have some info. Even though he is led about by his love of tubes, rosgr seems to be a great guy.


 


 Thanks for been so kind, I am so happy to have friends like you!
   
  I am a Head-Fi'er, 6SN7 addict, love the hobby and enjoy the music.


----------



## pataburd

Just bought a smoke glass, Hytron-branded 6SN7GT round plate.  I've never seen one before.


----------



## Skylab

Nice find!I have never seen one of those either.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





pataburd said:


> Just bought a smoke glass, Hytron-branded 6SN7GT round plate.  I've never seen one before.


 

 How does it fair against your other tubes?
   
  Another tube worth considering is the Brimar 6SN7GT Black Glass Black Base, very smooth and musical.
  This is not the CV1988 version.


----------



## pataburd

Bad news.  When setting the tube (of course the amp was off), it arced off a pin with the tube socket and subsequently did not power up.  I waited four hours to change the tube and apparently my right MOSFET got fried (I have no right channel signal).  I am guessing that the tube shorted when I powered up the amp.  The glass envelope was very loose.  Oh well . . .


----------



## rosgr63

Sorry to hear this.
  I didn't know something like that could happen!
  I assume this was the Hytron tube.


----------



## pataburd

I'm quite sure it was a bad tube with a short.


----------



## Skylab

That sucks man.  So sorry to hear that.


----------



## pataburd

Hopefully, I can find a local tech who can do the fix without messing up Fitz's custom work.  The circuit board needs to come out to do the job right.
   
  No DT880/600 tube-rolling fun today, or for a good many days.  Plan B: use the AMC XIA (SS).


----------



## KingStyles

I think I am going to check all my tubes before installing them. Sorry about your amp.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 On a happier note, I bought a pair of sylvania bad boys today. Darn tubes, there like crack for audiophilles. You arent satisfied with the amount you have already.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> On a happier note, I bought a pair of sylvania bad boys today. Darn tubes, there like crack for audiophilles. You arent satisfied with the amount you have already.


 

 So true..


----------



## rosgr63

KingStyles they are great tubes. Do they have the 3 or the 2 hole plates?
  Pleased to hear you are one of us 6SN7 tube addicts!


----------



## regal

The National Union is one you don't hear about much.  I finally found a 6SN7GT pair that doesn't hum however they are microphonic.   The sound is so different than othe 6SN7's,    it makes some recordings sound great that I can't even listen to with other tubes.
  I think I prefer it to the TungSol Mouse Ears but they weren't microphonic at all and have a quieter background with a good musical presentation,  some recordings these sound better.
   
  Anyone else have NU's?


----------



## nsx_23

If anyone here has an extra 6SN7, PM me.


----------



## KingStyles

There 1952 3 hole plates. Its kinda nice to be able to finally purchase some tubes in the usa where I dont have to wait 3 weeks for them to arrive.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





regal said:


> The National Union is one you don't hear about much.  I finally found a 6SN7GT pair that doesn't hum however they are microphonic.   The sound is so different than othe 6SN7's,    it makes some recordings sound great that I can't even listen to with other tubes.
> I think I prefer it to the TungSol Mouse Ears but they weren't microphonic at all and have a quieter background with a good musical presentation,  some recordings these sound better.
> 
> Anyone else have NU's?


 
  I too am liking the Tung Sol mouse ears.... I got a price from John for the Tung Sol 6SN7GT oval plates $400.00 for a pair (that includes shipping.)  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






   
  I think thats it for tube rolling for me until I get the Balancing Act...


----------



## tagosaku

Quote: 





> Anyone else have NU's?


 
   
  Just got another rebrand. Never seen this brand before.
 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290436189824&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_500wt_1154


----------



## sillysally

Those tubes from John I think are round plates not oval plate. They are probably CTL(navy) 1942 with oval mica's.
   
  Just got my second pair from John of those tubes and once more they are brand new condition. Both times I ordered  them they came in 8 days.
  
  Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> I too am liking the Tung Sol mouse ears.... I got a price from John for the Tung Sol 6SN7GT oval plates $400.00 for a pair (that includes shipping.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

The TS Black Glass with Round Plates are available with oval or round mica.
  The SQ is the same or very similar.
  There is also a TS Black Glass with Flat Plates but with square mica, which is very rare I think.


----------



## regal

There is a pair of Tung-Sol on ebay identical to the mouse ears but Tung-Sol decided to go sans mouse ears in the later years.   These a real sleepers for a budget tube.   Much better than anything GTA/GTB in this price range.  They sound near identical to mouse ears.  If I didn't already have two pair of mouse ears I would jump on these for $20/pair.  Well really my wife thinks I am OCD with too many tubes so I'm saving for the expensive TS's.


----------



## nsx_23

Got a link?


----------



## rosgr63

regal what is an OCD?


----------



## KingStyles

OCD = *Obsessive*-*Compulsive* *Disorder*


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





sillysally said:


> Those tubes from John I think are round plates not oval plate. They are probably CTL(navy) 1942 with oval mica's.
> 
> Just got my second pair from John of those tubes and once more they are brand new condition. Both times I ordered  them they came in 8 days.


 
  My e mail............Do you have 2 Tung Sol 6SN7GT with the oval plate on the top?? And how much Thanks....Mark....
   
  Answer............Hi Mark yes a pair is available our price is 400 usd post expenses are inlcuded.

 regards John
   
  I am confused whats this the plate or mica?


----------



## Skylab

Those are oval mica. In that shot you can't see the plates, but they are very likely the round plates.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Those are oval mica. In that shot you can't see the plates, but they are very likely the round plates.


 

 Thanks Skylab,,since the glass is black can you see the plates? Sorry I feel like a little kid here.


----------



## Skylab

Usually the top part of the plates are visible over the black coating. But to see them you need a straight-on shot, not the bird's-eye view


----------



## sillysally

Yes those are TS 6SN7 Round Plates the top is a mica with the two U shaped things on top and two thin metal strips on either side of the oval mica to support and keep the mica centered. More than likely those tubes are CTL circa 1942 navy.
  Just tried my second set of these tubes in my WA5LE same as the first and both are silent. Below is a link that may help.
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/90761/tung-sol-round-plate-in-the-nude-warning-big-pix#post_1054328
   
  Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> My e mail............Do you have 2 Tung Sol 6SN7GT with the oval plate on the top?? And how much Thanks....Mark....
> 
> Answer............Hi Mark yes a pair is available our price is 400 usd post expenses are inlcuded.
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks now I've learned something new!
   
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> OCD = *Obsessive*-*Compulsive* *Disorder*


----------



## Varma

Pictures of TungSol Round Plates with Round Mica


----------



## regal

Check out this auction I just won,   I threw in a low ball bid just to keep track of it  can't believe I won these at this price:
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350356077902&ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:US:1123


----------



## dannie01

WOW! What a steal and lucky you, regal.


----------



## Skylab

Nice.  I have scored a lot like that on EBay - putting in lowball bids just in case.  You never know!  And since I have a tube tester, it's not risky business...


----------



## markmaxx

I wanted to try a set of these. Any way same guy!! $5.00 each I thought,, I can't go wrong here,,just throw them away if they are no good!!
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270581153770&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123#ht_500wt_1154
   
  Edit:
  Wow he ships fast, they are here already,,,,


----------



## markmaxx

Amazing!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-TUNG-SOL-BLACK-ROUND-PLATE-6SN7GT-VT-231-6SN7-TUBE-/190399403229?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2c54b054dd#ht_875wt_1137


----------



## rosgr63

Come on mark it's $150 for the tube and $279.99 for the box, plus shipping!!!!!!
  Rather cheap isn't it?


----------



## Skylab

That is a truly absurd price for ONE of those.


----------



## rosgr63

I suggest we put some offers in, maybe he'll take the message. BTW the box is not the military version.


----------



## sillysally

Yep that's not a military box. Boy that price makes me think I got my matched 1942 TS 6SN7GT RP CTL for a song.


----------



## KingStyles

Maybe he forgot to tell everyone that it is cryoed with rhodium plated pins tested to have an unusually beautiful sound signature due to its pristine price tag. Makes since to me.


----------



## rosgr63

I am going to make him an offer $10 and see what happens.
  It's people like that that ruin our hobby.


----------



## KingStyles

Please someone ban me from ebay. There is another marconi b65 and a osram b65 up for bidding. My wallet is giving me dirty looks as it slowly backs up.


----------



## rosgr63

Kingstyles behave, you've been very bad lately that's enough!
  Needless to say you are a true 6SN7 addict to.


----------



## sillysally

Your wallet is given out, mine just flipped me the bird and walk out on me. So please ban me from the Internet.
  
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Please someone ban me from ebay. There is another marconi b65 and a osram b65 up for bidding. My wallet is giving me dirty looks as it slowly backs up.


----------



## KingStyles

Too bad there is the no more groups on headphille, because I think we need a tubeholic anonymous support group. Hello, I am Kingstyles and I have been clean from buying tubes for......


----------



## regal

Look at it this way,  when/if the economy turns around tube prices will sky-rocker.  Really you are making investments.


----------



## rosgr63

regal when does this "investment" stop?


----------



## regal

I haven't figured that one out yet,  maybe after rehab?
  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> regal when does this "investment" stop?


----------



## rosgr63

Well regal, I like it, from now on I'll call it an "investment" not an addiction!
  If you find a way out please let me know, I'll be so grateful!


----------



## Skylab

Just so you guys don't feel bad - here is my tube closet - and this is only about half of it...


----------



## rosgr63

If this isn't heaven what is?


----------



## regal

I've told my wife that my tubes are in my will for my daughter and when I die in 40 years she will inherit thousands of dollars worth antique tubes.   They aren't made anymore and in 40 years some of the bargains now will have to be worth a fortune,  all the old tube master engineers and hands on machine builder operators are dead.
   
    I don't think a TSRP could be reproduced now if someone invested a billion dollars in tooling,   so the price is only going to go up.   At least thats what I tell my self.


----------



## Skylab

I tell myself the same thing


----------



## rosgr63

skylab I can see those lovely GEC 6AS7G's 4 of them.
  Now I am counting and matching the rest, how long do you think is going to take me?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> skylab I can see those lovely GEC 6AS7G's 4 of them.
> Now I am counting and matching the rest, how long do you think is going to take me?


 

 That's about 4 years of tube buying for me, roughly


----------



## rosgr63

I meant to count and match your tubes.
  To collect, well that will definitely take way to long!


----------



## KingStyles

Well i I dont feel so bad after seeing Skylabs collection. Tubes has made this hobbie even more fun so I have no complaints.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Tubes has made this hobbie even more fun so I have no complaints.


 

 Indeed - I feel exactly the same.


----------



## markmaxx

Skylab nice collection...
   
  sacdplayer (Earl) is the only other collector, in your league,, that I have seen here...


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





regal said:


> Check out this auction I just won,   I threw in a low ball bid just to keep track of it  can't believe I won these at this price:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350356077902&ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:US:1123


 

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1279129539&/Matched-Quad-Ken-Rad-jan-vt-231/6sn7gt Is this the same tube?


----------



## regal

yes good price also.
  
  Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1279129539&/Matched-Quad-Ken-Rad-jan-vt-231/6sn7gt Is this the same tube?


----------



## Xcalibur255

That's a very nice (and expensive) looking collection Skylab.  I'm curious though....... why so many of the same type and brand?


----------



## rosgr63

A HAM friend has 10,000 tubes, some of them brand new unused!
  His wife threatened to put him in a lunatic asylum, I told her she should so I can look after his collection.
  Bad news is he's resisting, but for how long I don't know.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> His wife threatened to put him in a lunatic asylum, I told her she should so I can look after his collection.
> Bad news is he's resisting, but for how long I don't know.


 


 That's cold but if he's using them for HAM instead of music I support you.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> That's a very nice (and expensive) looking collection Skylab.  I'm curious though....... why so many of the same type and brand?


 

 Two things:
   
  1. Not all tubes that are the same brand and type are the same.  For example, there are a lot of different Tung-Sol 6SN7-types, a lot of different Sylvania 6SN7-types, etc.
   
  2. My Cary SLP-05 preamp uses EIGHT 6SN7's.  My Leben uses four 6BQ5/EL84.  My Fisher KX-100 uses six 12AX7's.  I need a few tubes!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1. Not all tubes that are the same brand and type are the same.  For example, there are a lot of different Tung-Sol 6SN7-types, a lot of different Sylvania 6SN7-types, etc.
> 
> 2. My Cary SLP-05 preamp uses EIGHT 6SN7's.  My Leben uses four 6BQ5/EL84.  My Fisher KX-100 uses six 12AX7's.  I need a few tubes!


 

 Ah, I forgot some amps use a lot of tubes.  Funny how no matter how expensive this hobby gets it always seems worth it somehow.  I'm still glad my Woo uses cheap tubes though!


----------



## flood

WHOAAAA! that's an insane collection, skylab.


----------



## Skylab

Yep - insane is probably about the right word


----------



## rosgr63

If you can't sleep in anticipation of the tube you just bought arriving, that's maybe insane!
  Your tube collection is a big relief to the rest of us, tube addicts!
  We have a long way to go!


----------



## Skylab

I've slowed down buying tubes a lot.  For a while I was really active buying them, out of panic that prices were going to continue to skyrocket.  And in some instances, I was right!  So I am glad I have the collection, but now I only replace tubes that I use up or go bad as I use them, or if I manage to get some crazy-good deal


----------



## BigTony

Has anybody come across the Cossor 6SN7GT tube?
  Cheers
  BT


----------



## regal

I need to find a 6SN7anonymous 12 step program.  I keep buying NU 6SNGT's for their wonderful sound but they are all  a bit noisy (squeeks, hum, static)  most amps you'd never notice it. But  I keep buying more like a crack head going to the same dealer that sells lactose chunks,  trying to find a silent NU 6SN7GT.


----------



## rosgr63

If you find the right program, please let us know.
  Meantime good luck with your search.


----------



## mourip

I have been buying up KenRad Vt-231s for a while. I like them the best even over my Tungsol VT-231 roundplates. Last week I bought a pair of 2A3 monoplates for a very reasonable price. The seller emails me and asks me what kind of input tube I use. I say "6SN7". He replies "watch your package I will toss in some." He sent me 2 KenRad VT-231s and a pair of Sylvania JAN 6SN7GTs. On EBAY possibly a couple hundred $ worth of tubes..
   
  A good day and the 2A3S are glorious...
   

  
  Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1279129539&/Matched-Quad-Ken-Rad-jan-vt-231/6sn7gt Is this the same tube?


----------



## tagosaku

Does these clear glass KenRad GT sound different from black glass?


----------



## KingStyles

I think the black glass is usually the vt 231 version and the clear glass is the 6sn7gt version. Supposedly they are both suppose to sound the same,


----------



## rosgr63

Tony what happened with the Cossor and the nice Tungsram?
  
  Quote: 





bigtony said:


> Has anybody come across the Cossor 6SN7GT tube?
> Cheers
> BT


----------



## rosgr63

Not the same SQ, the VT 231 is the one with the Black Glass and is better IMHO

  
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I think the black glass is usually the vt 231 version and the clear glass is the 6sn7gt version. Supposedly they are both suppose to sound the same,


----------



## tagosaku

Thanks.
  I don't have KenRad GT clear glass. However, the Sylvania GT flat plate  I have looks very much like the KenRad GT clear glass photos. Is there any chance that it is the same make or just a look alike ?


----------



## rosgr63

I know Ken Rad was taken over, so it would depend on the year of manufacture I guess.


----------



## BigTony

The Cossor sold for silly money .. I held my nerve at £50 and it went for more....
   
  BTW there is a pair for the deep of wallet :
   
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/COSSOR-6SN7GT-6SN7-PAIR-NIS-NIB-BEST-SOUND-LOOKING-TUBE-/390169774738?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5ad7ee4a92

  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Tony what happened with the Cossor and the nice Tungsram?


----------



## rosgr63

I can't believe it Tony!
  I think he got his 0's mixed up.


----------



## tagosaku

I think this seller is serious.
  He has NU that looks more like RCA grey glass for $200. And a pair of Syl Y-plate for $300. I won't mind selling mines for half of that


----------



## rosgr63

Come on tagosaku, please understand our addiction and sell them for a fair price!
   
  I won't sleep tonight thinking about all these Cossors and Tungsrams and NUs etc, etc.
   
  I wonder what regal thinks, good investment or not?


----------



## tagosaku

OK, OK.
  Anyone want a Swedgal rebranded NU GT for $200?
  Used to be $5 on eBay, which will make the mark up appropriate for an addictive substance like this, right?


----------



## BigTony

What is even more serious is that I now have a tube tester (thanks Doot!) so not only can I test tubes I can buy new tubes to test too!!


----------



## rosgr63

Join the club Big Tony!
  Be careful though you might start thinking that the £50 you bet was far to low!


----------



## tagosaku

I think tube tester is the best friend of a dumpster diver like myself or folks who can pay the market price set by audio dealers.
  Either way, it gives you an excuse to keep on buying  tubes. You need tubes to put in the tube tester, or less the tester will just sit there


----------



## rosgr63

Next is how to calibrate the tester to make sure it reads correctly.
  My downfall is KingStyles who provided me with fantastic info, schematics, parts lists, calibration procedures etc.
  I am so grateful to him he's been so supportive.
  But it's no good he's making me more of an addict.


----------



## KingStyles

The next thing is buying a tube test that is worth more than one of my single tubes. Mine does all right. I dont plan on doing any tube matching so I just need it to tell my if the tubes are good and if they have any shorts. It would be kinda cool to have a better unit though.


----------



## rosgr63

X2
   
  Another addition to the tube addiction?
  
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> The next thing is buying a tube test that is worth more than one of my single tubes. Mine does all right. I dont plan on doing any tube matching so I just need it to tell my if the tubes are good and if they have any shorts. It would be kinda cool to have a better unit though.


----------



## Skylab

Tube testers are so cool.  I love my B&K's.


----------



## rosgr63

skylab they are wonderful for sure.
  One problem is they have so many tube sockets to try, and you need at least two or three tubes for each socket.
   
  What an excuse eh?


----------



## regal

First impressions on the KenRad VT231's,  great bass(best of the 6SN7's I've heard),  very quiet black background.  But the midrange isn't as nice as the NU's,  too bad the NU's don't have the black background of the KenRads and TS's.  If I ever find a black background NU I will quit buying 6SN7's,  I promise.


----------



## rosgr63

Pleased you like them regal.
   
  For great mids try the Brimar B65 Brown Base, they are not that expensive may be worth looking for.
   
  BTW there is a pair of Cossors for $500 do you think it'll be a good investment?


----------



## regal

Is the Brimar B65 the same as the Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTY,  basically all I know about 6SN7 are from this thread or the reference thread.   I think I am competing with insider traders on this investment thing 
  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Pleased you like them regal.
> 
> For great mids try the Brimar B65 Brown Base, they are not that expensive may be worth looking for.
> 
> BTW there is a pair of Cossors for $500 do you think it'll be a good investment?


----------



## rosgr63

The Brimar B65 Brown Base is a cheap version of the famous B65 Metal Base.
  Nothing to do with the 6SN7GTY, much cheaper great sounding mids.
  You can get some "unmarked" Brimar B65 Brown Base very cheap and they are great, sometimes sold in pairs one marked the other unmarked.
  By unmarked I mean they don't have any writing/markings.
  Brimar also make Black Base ones which are very smooth, lots of bass but don't have the extended mids of the Brown Base.
  I must emphasize above are results based on my system with my worn out sensors (ears).


----------



## dannie01

I found a Brima 6SN7GT on Ebay now and the description of the tube is
   
  "hi one brimar valve 6sn7gt with it original box on the box_* it got 22/6 +pt the equivaient is a b65 *_this valve is a double triode.test the heater for continuity and ar ok. believe this is old stock and unused."
   
But for the pair bought recently are totally different.


----------



## rosgr63

The GTYs are like the ones shown in your photo.
  Expensive but one of the best.
   
  The one from your link is just another variant.
  The Brimar or Mullard with Black Base Black Glass are also excellent but expensive.


----------



## dannie01

Thanks, rosgr63.


----------



## regal

The one thing I like about the 6SN7GT is that the USA made some good tubes as opposed to the popular 6DJ8 & 12AU7 where the europeans were superior.  Living in the USA generally means you can find better deals on USA tubes,  while living in Europe means you guys find sweet deals on Amperex gold.   So I guess thats why I haven't researched Brimar or Mullard.  Now I guess I need to try to find this inexpensive Brimar for a change of pace.


----------



## rosgr63

Careful regal you are getting the bug!!!


----------



## sillysally

rosgr63 I guess I owe you a big Thanks, well not really but you sure brought me good luck when I started to read your thread. Not only with my TS6SN7GT's but with my WE300B's
  A match made in heaven.


----------



## Skylab

The 6SN7GTY is indeed a very nice sounding tube.  I used a pair of a long time in my Singlepower MPX-3 (until I got rid of that amp).  Really nice tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

I am very pleased I wish you and all my friends lots of luck.
   
  My 300B addiction started in anticipation of my new amp.(http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/477288/300b-tube-addicts)
  And the PX4 addiction is next.(http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/496720/px4-tube-addicts)
   
  And the worst part is the amp can use a 6SN7 as driver and 300Bs or PX4s as output.
  It's getting out of hand I know.
  KingStyles I can see you laughing. Don't, you are in the same boat, I am not alone!
  Quote: 





sillysally said:


> rosgr63 I guess I owe you a big Thanks, well not really but you sure brought me good luck when I started to read your thread. Not only with my TS6SN7GT's but with my WE300B's
> A match made in heaven.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> KinkStyles I can see you laughing. Don't, you are in the same boat, I am not alone!


 
  Oh great, Now I am KinkStyles, I think all these tubes are warping your vision.
   
  Quote: 





> And the PX4 addiction is next.


 
  The good news is there is only 2 px-4 that will work in the ba. The Kr and the sophia princess. That might be all that I need if the KR lives up to the hype. You cant use old stock px-4's.The old stock px-4 use a b4 base in the new stock ones can be purchased with the ux4 base which is the same as the 300b. I have looked, but have not been able to find an b4 to ux4 adapter. That is all right though, the info that I have read between the new stock and the nos ones is the new ones sound better than the nos ones so why bother.


----------



## rosgr63

KingStyles you are right all these tubes are distorting my vision Sorry!!!
  And I edited the post twice!


----------



## rosgr63

If the old and new PX4s are electrically the same I am sure we'll find an adaptor!
  After all we live in hope!


----------



## KingStyles

I looked for a couple of nights, but couldnt even get a hint that there might be one. This is probably due to the fact that they arent drop in replacements because they have a 4v heater instead of a 5v heater so the power supply has to be adjusted and they also need a different biasing resistor. Like you said though, I will keep hope alive.


----------



## rosgr63

But can adjust the heater voltage on the BA right?
  So the resistor will be the problem.
  I am sure you'll find a way come on!


----------



## KingStyles

Our amps have a knob along with a meter on the power supply to make it easy to adjust the voltage and he has installed a switch on the back of the ba to be able to switch between the two different resistors for the 300b and the px4. We are all set to use either. He has already thought of everything.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Our amps have a knob along with a meter on the power supply to make it easy to adjust the voltage and he has installed a switch on the back of the ba to be able to switch between the two different resistors for the 300b and the px4. We are all set to use either. He has already thought of everything.


 

 I guess we all have the same addiction,
   
  ,My BA, is coming with the KR PX4, (1 pair: $630) The BA. output tube options are some of the most expensive tubes I have ever purchased.. I don't see me collecting many 300b, to go with my KR PX 4..


----------



## rosgr63

Don't speak to soon Mark,
   
  We are tube addicts.
   
  I can't wait until KingStyles sorts out the adapter and resistor problem so we can use the vintage PX4!
   
  Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> I guess we all have the same addiction,
> 
> ,My BA, is coming with the KR PX4, (1 pair: $630) The BA. output tube options are some of the most expensive tubes I have ever purchased.. I don't see me collecting many 300b, to go with my KR PX 4..


----------



## dannie01

I was already tempted to order a BA from Eddie Current, this sipmly a very nice amp to have. Please post some impressions when you guys whome were ordered the BA and when it arrived. Yes, I've read some in the BA thread but just wanna have some more input.


----------



## rosgr63

Sure thing dannie01.
  I guess there be a lot of tube rolling with this amp!
   
  Thread started:http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/497049/balancing-act-tube-rolling#post_6709176


----------



## dannie01

Wow, you rosgr63. I've subscribed this thread for my reference. Post more info of tube rolling about the BA, I want to know more, thanks.


----------



## Groundzero

Would anyone mind advising me on this pair of TS mouse ears? This would be my first pair of 6SN7 and I'm a little hesitant bidding because a) one is grey and one is black plates, and b) they tested different by 14. I wondering if I should try to get them, or wait for a better pair to come along.
http://cgi.ebay.com/-Tung-Sol-6SN7GT-Tubes-Mouse-Ear_W0QQitemZ14041918943QQcategoryZ16QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3911.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgoI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7837132434621700536#ht_500wt_1154


----------



## Skylab

Both should be completely irrelevant - those should be nice tubes.


----------



## Groundzero

Thanks. I was just curious because in my experience with 6DE7 and 6EW7, black plates generally sounded very different from grey.


----------



## Skylab

That's often the case, but hasn't been my experience with the Mouse Ears.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





groundzero said:


> Would anyone mind advising me on this pair of TS mouse ears? This would be my first pair of 6SN7 and I'm a little hesitant bidding because a) one is grey and one is black plates, and b) they tested different by 14. I wondering if I should try to get them, or wait for a better pair to come along.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/-Tung-Sol-6SN7GT-Tubes-Mouse-Ear_W0QQitemZ14041918943QQcategoryZ16QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3911.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgoI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7837132434621700536#ht_500wt_1154


 
  I have a set you want to try them? I will send them to you...Just pay me the shipping and do a little review for the guys here and send them back when you are done with them....


----------



## Groundzero

Thanks for the really kind offer, I may take you up on that if I don't win the auction. I'm still in the process of ordering the adapters for my amp, so either way it will be a little while before I can use them.


----------



## sillysally

Quote: 





groundzero said:


> Would anyone mind advising me on this pair of TS mouse ears? This would be my first pair of 6SN7 and I'm a little hesitant bidding because a) one is grey and one is black plates, and b) they tested different by 14. I wondering if I should try to get them, or wait for a better pair to come along.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/-Tung-Sol-6SN7GT-Tubes-Mouse-Ear_W0QQitemZ14041918943QQcategoryZ16QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3911.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgoI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7837132434621700536#ht_500wt_1154


 
  I would be very careful putting 6SN7 in a WA6SE unless you just got that amp new from Jack, but still ask Jack first.
   
  I have a NOS matched pair of TS 6SN7GT's round plates 1942/08 CTL. As much as I would like to try them out in my WA6SE I will not. I use them in my WA5LE matched with a pair of NOS WE300Bs 1956/26thweek date stamp on both the 300Bs.


----------



## Groundzero

Quote: 





sillysally said:


> I would be very careful putting 6SN7 in a WA6SE unless you just got that amp new from Jack, but still ask Jack first.
> 
> I have a NOS matched pair of TS 6SN7GT's round plates 1942/08 CTL. As much as I would like to try them out in my WA6SE I will not. I use them in my WA5LE matched with a pair of NOS WE300Bs 1956/26thweek date stamp on both the 300Bs.


 
  I bought it new from him at the end of March this year. I changed out cathode caps to a higher voltage rating so I think with the special adapters it will be fine. I'll send him an email just to be sure anyways. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## rosgr63

The TS mouse ears is a nice tube, with pleasing lows.
  However it very much depends on the output tubes I am using.
  When paired with RCA 6AS7Gs the results are better than with other power tubes in my system.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





groundzero said:


> Thanks for the really kind offer, I may take you up on that if I don't win the auction. I'm still in the process of ordering the adapters for my amp, so either way it will be a little while before I can use them.


 

 Any time!!


----------



## regal

The WA6 or SE will have too high an output impedance with 6SN7's,  plus the primary won't be big enough.  Stick to 6EW7s for thos amps.
  Quote: 





groundzero said:


> I bought it new from him at the end of March this year. I changed out cathode caps to a higher voltage rating so I think with the special adapters it will be fine. I'll send him an email just to be sure anyways. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## rosgr63

regal did you get the nice NUs you were looking for?


----------



## markmaxx

Anyone ever tried this 6SN7,,,,,,,,,,,
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140418336783&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_1236wt_1137


----------



## Skylab

Pretty standard Sylvania 6SN7GTB. High value for the generally cheap price - you can get them NOS for $15 pretty easily.


----------



## rosgr63

Seen a few of those but never actually tried one.
  It's not very expensive it's worth a try.
  BTW is it for your recently arrived BA?


----------



## regal

Note to self never buy tubes from this guy,  these are fakes,  bet he uses his BB stamp on 6DJ8 tubes too.
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-Amperex-Bugle-Boy-6SN7GT-Black-Plate-D-Gtr-6SN7-/180525564630?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a082982d6


----------



## markmaxx

Yes it is for the Ba..I have the Tung Sol mouse ear in right now,, Craig said that for the price this is a good sounding tube so I ended up buying it. Can you guys get the 6SN7 12 step plan,,,set up,,? Now I am buying tubes because they are cheap...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I am bidding on a Tung Sol 6SN7GT oval plates,http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150458280101&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT#ht_2819wt_911 I am still going to order one from John this week end. Just thought this might get here faster..and maybe a lot cheaper..

  And then,, maybe Audez'e LCD-2 Planar Magnetic...I guess I should sell the other two amps as I don't see myself plug them in again. The Ba is very nice. Might sell the K 1000 too on the fence there, they hurt my temples..


----------



## rosgr63

First sign of an addict!
  Next are the expensive tubes, be careful, you're getting hooked.
  And what a better amp to try them on.
  Wait until you get your TS BGRP's!


----------



## regal

I think they (mouse ears) are the best value out there right now.  I've got two pairs,  really need to find that 12 step program.  At least I didn't fall for those fake Bugle Boys,  that would be hitting rock bottom.
   
  Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> I have the Tung Sol mouse ear in right now,, Craig said that for the price this is a good sounding tube so I ended up buying it.


----------



## rosgr63

Well I have bought some bad tubes, paid good money, tried them and then started crying, just like a true addict would!


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Next are the expensive tubes, be careful, you're getting hooked.


 

 Already got the expensive tubes..The KR PX4.. that I am using in the BA were,,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 $600.00 for the pair..


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> Already got the expensive tubes..The KR PX4.. that I am using in the BA were,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am talking 6SN7's when you pay $1700 for a pair!
   
  BTW don't forget to post your BA tube rolling impressions http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/497049/balancing-act-tube-rolling


----------



## sillysally

Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> Yes it is for the Ba..I have the Tung Sol mouse ear in right now,, Craig said that for the price this is a good sounding tube so I ended up buying it. Can you guys get the 6SN7 12 step plan,,,set up,,? Now I am buying tubes because they are cheap...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I hope you haven't bid on that tube, It is not a TS 6SN7GT round plate circa (round or oval mica is the same) 1942 thru 1945.


----------



## rosgr63

I think it is genuine.


----------



## sillysally

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I think it is genuine.


 
  After looking at the rest of the pictures you are right it does look like a TSRP


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Peter, I thought I was going crazy!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





regal said:


> Note to self never buy tubes from this guy,  these are fakes,  bet he uses his BB stamp on 6DJ8 tubes too.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-Amperex-Bugle-Boy-6SN7GT-Black-Plate-D-Gtr-6SN7-/180525564630?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a082982d6


 

 I'm not sure those are "fakes".  Those are clearly RCA-made tubes.  If someone was going to make fakes, you'd use cheap Chinese or Russian tubes, not vintage RCA's.
   
  Amperex did a LOT of re-branding toward the end.  So did a lot of companies, actually.  I have some Amperex 6AS7G's that are clearly not "fakes", but that are also definitely East-European, not UK, Holland, or USA.  The fact that Amperex itself made tubes in all 3 of those countries at one point or another doesn't help make things easy.
   
  So while I cannot guarantee that the guy didn't fake those, I highly doubt it.  They just look like RCA-made, Amperex branded tubes.  But it shows why it's important to know what you're bidding on!  The RCA branded versions of those can easily be had for $10-15 each.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





sillysally said:


> I hope you haven't bid on that tube, It is not a TS 6SN7GT round plate circa (round or oval mica is the same) 1942 thru 1945.


 

 Yes I did 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




,,the title said: 

 [size=large] *"Tung-Sol 6SN7 Black Round Plates Balanced 6SN7GT"*[/size] 

   
  Then I read your next post,,So you don't think they are scamming me?


----------



## markmaxx

I just bought 3 Tung Sol 6SN7 GT round plates..2 for th wa22 1 for the balancing act.. Thanks for all the advice..


----------



## rosgr63

Well done, good desicion, if they are nice they worth every cent.


----------



## markmaxx

I bought all 3 from the guy in the e bay link several posts back,,we will see..


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Pretty standard Sylvania 6SN7GTB. High value for the generally cheap price - you can get them NOS for $15 pretty easily.


 

 SkyLab, you were kinda hard on my $17.00 tube.It's still burning in but,, so far,, It sounds great,, and I only over paid by $2.00. LOL
   
  .I can't wait for the Tung Sol 6SN7GT  round plates..


----------



## Skylab

$17 is still a good price 

 And for that money the Sylvania 6SN7GTB is an outstanding value. I do think you'll like the TS BGRP better, tho


----------



## BigTony

Well I did manage to get hold of a Cossor tube - going to try it tonight/tomorrow as I've just moved and need to do some unpacking 
  Will let you know how I get on.


----------



## markmaxx

The Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates are in the house,,,, doing some burning in.... They sound nice right now,,


----------



## Blackmore

Just got some batch of differ 6SN7 tubes, where the most are Sylvania's, so, need some info about these, which are look like so called "Bad boys". And there is another pair, which are not really known by me, but looks like typical VT-231, but than with differ plates that can be found in RCA, but maybe I am mistaking, anyone?
   
  THX
   
   
  Here are the Sylvania's
   



   
   
  And here are RADIOTRON/RCA VT-231???


----------



## rosgr63

The first set is the so called "Bad Boys", very nice tubes.
   
  EDIT: to be 100% sure can you tell us the date code?
   
  The second set look OK make sure you don't pay too much if they are rebranded.


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks for your replay. I got these as well, they look quite nice to, however will be able to try them, and others to, not earlier than next week.


----------



## Blackmore

dble pst


----------



## Blackmore

They have the same code on their bases:
   
  2
  3
  5
   
  And some have E2M just under 6SN7GT on bottle.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> They have the same code on their bases:
> 
> 2
> 3
> ...


 
   
   
   
  That's year 1952, week 35. Very good.


----------



## regal

What is the sound of the 1952 Sylvanias vs the other Sylvania 50's GT's?  I have a 1954 Sylvania 6SN7GT pair that are OK but a little weak in bass.


----------



## rosgr63

regal have you tried the TS mouse ears yet?


----------



## regal

Yes IMO they are the best value in 6SN7 tubes currently.  They have a very neutral frequency response and have a dead silent background, for only a few dollars more than the popular 6SN7GTB Sylvanias you get a much better tube IMO.
   
  I still prefer  the NU's but that I think is because of the music I listen to,  they also tend to be noisy  but they have a very romantic midbass-mid-range.  I rank my 6SN7's like this ( I like all of them none are bad tubes):
   
  1. National Union 6SN7GT
  2. Tung-Sol Mouse Ears
  3. Sylvania 6SN7GT (mine aren't bad boys)
  4. Ken Rad 6SN7GT
  5. Tung Sol 6SN7GTB
  6  Sylvania 6SN7GTB
  7. RCA VT231
   
   
  I
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> regal have you tried the TS mouse ears yet?


----------



## rosgr63

Of all the 6SN7's I have (including some expensive and rare ones) the driver I use daily is a Motorola branded mouse ears TS with a cracked base!
  I can't stop using it it's great!


----------



## regal

There is also a T-S 6SN7GT that is identical except it doesn't have the mouse ears,  I've been told they sound the same,  they can be found even cheaper sometimes.  I do think the mouse ears help with microphonics,  but that may not be an issue if someone has a stable rack.


----------



## monsieurguzel

Ugh, so I finally broke down and decided to buy a pair of NOS TS 6SN7GT Round plates for my WA5.  I probably spend a lot more money just buying other random pairs of 6SN7s throughout the months instead of just buying these in the first place...
   
  I've been running mine w/ the CV-181s for the past 3-4 months which I have actually been very happy with but feel like I need to try out the TS Round Plates to see what all the fuss is about   Before the CV-181s I has tried the Sylvania 6SN7W, Ken Rad VT-231, and RCA VT-231....where each had its pluses and minuses.  Of the vintage 6SN7s, my favorite were the Ken Rads for their awesome bass..but they were lacking in mids and highs a little.  To me the CV-181s were a good compromise of all the tubes...no particular sound range stands out, but they have very low noise and amazing definition.


----------



## Groundzero

I got the adapters today and can happily report that the 6SN7 work perfectly in the 6SE. Upgraded cathode and cathode bias caps along with resistors in the adapters make them safe to use. They look a little awkward but sound great 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   

  I'd offer impressions but as my first pair of 6SN7, I have nothing to compare to.


----------



## Seamaster

Looks like Glenn made those for you.


----------



## sillysally

Quote: 





monsieurguzel said:


> Ugh, so I finally broke down and decided to buy a pair of NOS TS 6SN7GT Round plates for my WA5.  I probably spend a lot more money just buying other random pairs of 6SN7s throughout the months instead of just buying these in the first place...
> 
> I've been running mine w/ the CV-181s for the past 3-4 months which I have actually been very happy with but feel like I need to try out the TS Round Plates to see what all the fuss is about   Before the CV-181s I has tried the Sylvania 6SN7W, Ken Rad VT-231, and RCA VT-231....where each had its pluses and minuses.  Of the vintage 6SN7s, my favorite were the Ken Rads for their awesome bass..but they were lacking in mids and highs a little.  To me the CV-181s were a good compromise of all the tubes...no particular sound range stands out, but they have very low noise and amazing definition.


 

 If you think your CV-181 has low noise and amazing definition just wait, the TSR's will change that thinking very quickly plus you will start to understand why I have been saying with the WA5/LE and the parts upgrade just go for the gold.
  Now after you figure out that your 300B's are hold back your TSR's look at the NOS WE300B's (1965 or older) matched pair (also very impotent) with are WA5's. However I can't help with were to buy the WE300B's, those "old guys" (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/494135/we300b-nos-tests#post_6668982) sold out there WE300B's two pairs went to Canada and one pair went to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  The mids with the WE300B's are something out of this world.


----------



## Groundzero

Quote:


seamaster said:


> Looks like Glenn made those for you.


 

 Yessir. They seem to be very nice quality and feel well made.


----------



## monsieurguzel

Haha, thanks for the advice, I'm looking forward to posting my impressions, especially now that I've severely accustomed to my WA5 and the sound it produces with the HD800 as well as my LCD-2s.  As for the 300B tubes, I'll probably be sticking with my current ones for a while since I have other purchasing priorities on my list such as a pair of Zu Soul speakers to be driven by my WA5...so I'm saving up for those.  It'll be my first venture into high end speakers and the WA5 makes it a little easier for me since it is already a headphone amp, a pre-amp, and speaker power amp all in one (which is why I was able to justify the exorbitant price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
  
  Quote: 





sillysally said:


> If you think your CV-181 has low noise and amazing definition just wait, the TSR's will change that thinking very quickly plus you will start to understand why I have been saying with the WA5/LE and the parts upgrade just go for the gold.
> Now after you figure out that your 300B's are hold back your TSR's look at the NOS WE300B's (1965 or older) matched pair (also very impotent) with are WA5's. However I can't help with were to buy the WE300B's, those "old guys" (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/494135/we300b-nos-tests#post_6668982) sold out there WE300B's two pairs went to Canada and one pair went to me.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





monsieurguzel said:


> Haha, thanks for the advice, I'm looking forward to posting my impressions, especially now that I've severely accustomed to my WA5 and the sound it produces with the HD800 as well as my LCD-2s.  As for the 300B tubes, I'll probably be sticking with my current ones for a while since I have other purchasing priorities on my list such as a pair of Zu Soul speakers to be driven by my WA5...so I'm saving up for those.  It'll be my first venture into high end speakers and the WA5 makes it a little easier for me since it is already a headphone amp, a pre-amp, and speaker power amp all in one (which is why I was able to justify the exorbitant price
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 If you are going to adventure in the speakers worls using the WA5 I recommend you to take a look at Coincident spekares (http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/) . They are designed to work with tubes, great craftmanship and awasome sound.


----------



## takezo

Quote: 





groundzero said:


> I got the adapters today and can happily report that the 6SN7 work perfectly in the 6SE. Upgraded cathode and cathode bias caps along with resistors in the adapters make them safe to use. They look a little awkward but sound great
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 i'm glad it's worked out for you. which way did you go? cap by-pass nor not? if so, how'd
  they fit all that in that adapter? lol...
  the tungsol mouse ears are very good but you may want to try the raytheon vt-231
  with square t-plates (avoid the flat ladder types as they are frequently noisy and
  not as sweet sounding). if you're adventurous, i'd recommend you try an adapter
  for the 7n7. they are electrically identical to the 6sn7 but uses shorter pin path
  from the plates, cathodes, and grids to the pins. it sounds very smooth and refined.
  great for classical, vocal and acoustic music. have fun.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I am undergoing the same adventure as GroundZero in a few days putting adapters into my WA6 to run 6SN7s.  I just cannot find a sound for the amp that seems right to my ears so far.  To start I grabbed a cheap pair of RCA 6SN7GTB with ribbed black plates off eBay for $25.  I wanted to see what 6SN7 had to offer at the low cost end.  I was hoping to ask for some advice on what to try in the middle price range.  I'm hoping to look twice and buy once so to speak.  Something neutral and balanced, with great soundstage, speed impact and PRAT but not an upfront or bright sound.  My greatest enemies are excess treble energy and harshness from the upper midrange on up in the spectrum so I'm looking for a sweet and effortless sound that still offers good resolution and inner detail.  Are there any 6SN7 tubes under or around $100 that I should focus on?


----------



## takezo

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I am undergoing the same adventure as GroundZero in a few days putting adapters into my WA6 to run 6SN7s.  I just cannot find a sound for the amp that seems right to my ears so far.  To start I grabbed a cheap pair of RCA 6SN7GTB with ribbed black plates off eBay for $25.  I wanted to see what 6SN7 had to offer at the low cost end.  I was hoping to ask for some advice on what to try in the middle price range.  I'm hoping to look twice and buy once so to speak.  Something neutral and balanced, with great soundstage, speed impact and PRAT but not an upfront or bright sound.  My greatest enemies are excess treble energy and harshness from the upper midrange on up in the spectrum so I'm looking for a sweet and effortless sound that still offers good resolution and inner detail.  Are there any 6SN7 tubes under or around $100 that I should focus on?


 
   
  it would be important, and helpful, to know which headphone you're using. i think it's
  a better approach to find the hp that you are happy with, instead of modifying the
  source and/or amp to find the sound you desire.
   
  also, what coupling caps are being used in your wa6? changing the cathode bias
  resistors/caps will alter the tonal quality as well.


----------



## monsieurguzel

I highly agree with the fact that headphones make a much bigger difference than any tube rolling you will be doing, especially with the WA6.  Have you ever used the K701 with a different amp?  Headphones such as the K701 can be very polarizing and many don't like them outside of classical / jazz music.  There are many headphones in the similar price range of the K701s that office very different sound signature that might more suit your musical tastes.  Amps can make a headphone sound "better" but it won't radically turn it into a different beast altogether...so make sure you like the sound signature / sound staging of a headphone before investing on a better amp for it (this will save you a bit of money and frustration).
  
  Quote: 





takezo said:


> it would be important, and helpful, to know which headphone you're using. i think it's
> a better approach to find the hp that you are happy with, instead of modifying the
> source and/or amp to find the sound you desire.
> 
> ...


----------



## Groundzero

Quote:


takezo said:


> i'm glad it's worked out for you. which way did you go? cap by-pass nor not? if so, how'd
> they fit all that in that adapter? lol...
> the tungsol mouse ears are very good but you may want to try the raytheon vt-231
> with square t-plates (avoid the flat ladder types as they are frequently noisy and
> ...


 

 Umm I'm not entirely sure to be honest. Glenn said he would try to find caps that will fit but I'm not sure what he ended up doing. I think if anything tube wise, I'd look for another pair of 6sn7 that are warm/bassy. I'd rather not have to buy more adapters.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The amp is unmodified/stock as I have no skills in that regard.  The K701 is indeed the primary use headphone.  I feel like I've actually come somewhat close to what I want to hear with the rare black plate 6FD7 tubes I have for the amp, but I would like to get a little closer if possible.  New headphones are just not possible right now so I'm trying to make the best of what I have, hence the $100 maximum spending limit and desire to purchase only one set of tubes.  Further down the road I'll be looking at other headphones.  I've looked into the Beyer T1 extensively, along with the LCD-2 (some of you have probably seen me post in those threads), but finances are very bad for me right now and I can't consider either one this year or possibly even next year now.
   
  I just moved into an apartment and have now lost the use of my home theater system so the Woo is my only means of enjoying music now.  For certain things, especially piano music, it just does not pull me into the music the way my speaker based system could so I'm trying to do what I can with it under limited financial means.
   
  Any tube advice you can send my way is appreciated very much.  If I blow $100 on a pair of tubes and don't like them then I'm finished and will just have to make do with how the amp sounds now.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





monsieurguzel said:


> Have you ever used the K701 with a different amp?  Headphones such as the K701 can be very polarizing and many don't like them outside of classical / jazz music.


 

 I felt the WA6/K701 combo was an improvement over the CIA VHP2 I was using them with before.  They sound clinical and sterile to the point of being awful on SS amps, the WA6 improved that situation to "okay" for the most part but I have trouble with harshness and sibilance.  I'm basically stuck with them right now.  The HD650 would very likely fix my issues until I was ready to move upstream in performance but I just can't afford them now sadly.


----------



## takezo

Quote: 





groundzero said:


> Quote:
> 
> Umm I'm not entirely sure to be honest. Glenn said he would try to find caps that will fit but I'm not sure what he ended up doing. I think if anything tube wise, I'd look for another pair of 6sn7 that are warm/bassy. I'd rather not have to buy more adapters.


 

 it's not a problem at all. bypassing only makes sense if you don't like what you're getting
  out of the the adapter now in the highs. warm and bassy is what the rca 6sn7gt will sound like, as well as the english brimar cv1988 6sn7. they can be quite expensive if you want a genuine NOS, but even used ones can sound great.


----------



## takezo

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The amp is unmodified/stock as I have no skills in that regard.  The K701 is indeed the primary use headphone.  I feel like I've actually come somewhat close to what I want to hear with the rare black plate 6FD7 tubes I have for the amp, but I would like to get a little closer if possible.  New headphones are just not possible right now so I'm trying to make the best of what I have, hence the $100 maximum spending limit and desire to purchase only one set of tubes.  Further down the road I'll be looking at other headphones.  I've looked into the Beyer T1 extensively, along with the LCD-2 (some of you have probably seen me post in those threads), but finances are very bad for me right now and I can't consider either one this year or possibly even next year now.
> 
> I just moved into an apartment and have now lost the use of my home theater system so the Woo is my only means of enjoying music now.  For certain things, especially piano music, it just does not pull me into the music the way my speaker based system could so I'm trying to do what I can with it under limited financial means.
> 
> Any tube advice you can send my way is appreciated very much.  If I blow $100 on a pair of tubes and don't like them then I'm finished and will just have to make do with how the amp sounds now.


 

 have you tried the english version of the 5v4g rectifier.. the GZ32? it has a subtle warm
  tone that may tame the highs of the 701. the american 5v4g is the opposite; it accentuates
  the peaks in the highs, so avoid those. (rectifiers do impart their own sound characteristics
  especially when driven at lower voltages, as the wa6 does, around 180volts.)
  also, the older 6ew7 and 6de7 and 6dr7 can sound very balanced. the older ones can
  be identified by the "horse-shoe-shaped" getters on top. these are from the mid 60's
  and generally less bright/edgier than the 70's/80's type. the 6fd7's are all from the 70's
  and 80's, so you won't find any from the 60's.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I have an RCA 6FD7 dated from around 1960 actually.  It has a different plate structure than any other 6FD7 tube I have seen and sounds much, much better.  They are apparently very rare so I've turned to the 6SN7 because they at least are readily available and to be honest I just wanted to know what all the fuss was about too after reading this thread for a while.  I did consider the Mullard GZ32 for the rectifier socket, but for the price NOS ones go for I can get an EML 274B which is my long term plan for the amp anyway, and I feel the soundstage of the GZ32/5V4G is just too small for my tastes unfortunately. 
   
  I'd love to grab a single good pair of 6SN7 tubes for the amp and was hoping for some guidance on that front.  Perhaps I'm already on the right track with the RCA tubes I picked up.  Maybe seeking out an older late 40's 6SN7GT greyglass would be a good idea, rather than the newer 6SN7GTB I have right now?


----------



## takezo

experimenting with 6sn7 types can be very expensive. i've over 40 pairs and even
  the same brand names can give different tonal balance. try the tungsol vt-231 with
  the square plates. it's very balanced and not very noisy. it may not be as coveted
  as the roundplate version but i think they are great bargains. good luck.


----------



## rosgr63

I would also recommend the Tung Sol mouse ears.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Thanks.  The mouse ears seem like a safe bet.  Just to clarify, the mouse ears are a t-plate tube, and not the same thing as the square plate correct?


----------



## Blackmore

Just recently compared Sophia's to Bad boys, RCA GT, Sylvania GTB chrome top and to my ears Sophia tubes exceed them all, so I highly recommend them, simply great valve. Seems that they took everything good from every possible NOS and put all together in one. I use them with Princess 300B Mesh plates and the match is excellent.


----------



## takezo

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Thanks.  The mouse ears seem like a safe bet.  Just to clarify, the mouse ears are a t-plate tube, and not the same thing as the square plate correct?


 

 t-plate are sometimes referred to as box plates. the square flat plates usually
  have the ladder-like imprint on the plates. i believe all tungsol vt-231 tubes are
  grey or black t-plates; with the exception being the roundplates.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





takezo said:


> t-plate are sometimes referred to as box plates. the square flat plates usually
> have the ladder-like imprint on the plates. i believe all tungsol vt-231 tubes are
> grey or black t-plates; with the exception being the roundplates.


 

 Thanks.  This is very helpful information.  Knowing how costly this can get I'm not out to experiment, I just want to try to find one nice pair of tubes.  If I end up unsatisfied I'm not going to pursue it further for the time being.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Just recently compared Sophia's to Bad boys, RCA GT, Sylvania GTB chrome top and to my ears Sophia tubes exceed them all, so I highly recommend them, simply great valve. Seems that they took everything good from every possible NOS and put all together in one. I use them with Princess 300B Mesh plates and the match is excellent.


 

 I actually asked this question quite a while ago, whether the Sophia 6SN7 was a good tube to consider, and I was basically told they are okay but not worth their asking price.  You seem to be impressed with them on the other hand.  How would you describe their sound, tonally and in terms of resolution and PRAT?


----------



## Blackmore

As we all know, tubes behaviour is not the same in differ amps, so, thats why some folks just dont think they are worth it, but also the fact that the cups are doing the most job and tubes adjust the tonality have to be mentioned, so the match between two is crusial, imo.
   
  Anyway, as for the sound, I would describe them as spacey or would I say they have the opennes that others can only dream of it, but it doesnt have any bad influence on the rest. Compare to bad boys they have better clarity, placing of instruments and image, extention and the voice reproduction, all sounds more natural, but also neutral, cos bad boys are to colored and during some moments making a mess of it. They also compressed in comparison, but sound very smooth, but not just creamy, it just like you taste the cream only with no coffee in it. I used JAN WGTA Sylvania, brown base, O getter on top with green print on glass as an drive and bad boys in pre section. WGTA's are from 1971, but not sure about Bad boys.






   
   
   
  About RCA's I would say the to much of the richness that bad boys have, these dont have it at all and the whole picture is like chilly. They are neutral, but the mids are pretty not there, where the bass is good. They also have kind of compressed, but also distand presentation. The presense of emptyness doesnt make the total picture fully enjoyable either. The drive tube was WGTA Sylvania.



   
  The last, but not least were 1x GTA and 2x GTB from Sylvania with chrome dom. I used GTA as a drive and GTB's in pre section. Well, these are closest to Sophia signature, very good sounding one. Their tonality is way more ballanced than from others I tried, but also the whole picture is just good, however I found them, just slightly, provocating on top comparing to Sophia's, but also slightly mellow/softer with bass, but all by all, very nice and I believe not that expensive tubes.



   
   
   
  Conclusion: the most tubes missing the truly ballance and openness that Sophia's are offering, but also the tight and detailed bass is clearly better.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The RCAs pictured look exactly like the ones I picked up.  I'm looking forward to hearing them when the adapters arrive actually, because it will establish expectations and a baseline.  After doing a ton of reading I think I'm looking for either an early TungSol grey box plate or a 1940's RCA greyglass tube.  Assuming I can find either for the right price.  The Sophias are $100 per tube which is too rich for my blood.


----------



## Blackmore

I believe I have had one RCA Grey glass, but thats not enough, cos need 3 of them, so I sold it, are they special, any pics pls? I always ask for pics because its the best way to see what ever folks are talking about, even you can find it online, you still not sure if its the right one, at least with some tubes it is.
   
  You can buy Sophias for USD 60 each so called grade C or even from the factory bulk for USD 50, but you have to buy 10 at least. Anyway, from my limited 6SN7 expirience I getting the same feeling as with all other types I ever rolled, called hype, where some indeed rare and good, but others just like any other one.
   
  Just wonder if anyone tried NOS TESLA's 6CC1, which are similar to 6SN7, I believe.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Search for RCA VT-231 on eBay and you should find the greyglass tubes.  I'm intrigued by them.  They are supposed to be very romantic sounding.


----------



## sillysally

I found this link to be helpful
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## rgs9200m

Could someone please tell me how much heat 6NS7s generate (relative to, say, 12AU7s that I am familiar with)?
  Is an inch clearance above the glass top to a shelf above enough?
  Thanks in advance for any help here.


----------



## regal

IME they give off a lot of heat and require a very well ventilated case.
   
  Quote: 





rgs9200m said:


> Could someone please tell me how much heat 6NS7s generate (relative to, say, 12AU7s that I am familiar with)?
> Is an inch clearance above the glass top to a shelf above enough?
> Thanks in advance for any help here.


----------



## takezo

Quote: 





rgs9200m said:


> Could someone please tell me how much heat 6NS7s generate (relative to, say, 12AU7s that I am familiar with)?
> Is an inch clearance above the glass top to a shelf above enough?
> Thanks in advance for any help here.


 

 it depends on the operating voltage/current being applied. lot of heat is displaced when
  running them near their max voltage of 300 to 400v (gtb), while much less heat is observed
  when running them in drive position at around 80 to 150v.


----------



## tagosaku

Quote: 





> Is an inch clearance above the glass top to a shelf above enough?


 
   
  Heat issues aside, won't that make it tough to change tubes?


----------



## rgs9200m

For changing tubes, I can just slide the unit out (carefully of course). This is a CDP (a Sony 5400 mod)  with 2 6NS7s sticking up from the top of the player,
  so there is no case and the shelf is open on all 4 sides. I am not sure of exactly how they are driven, but I am told they are "conservatively driven to get a 10,000-hour life" if that gives a clue. I picked up some Sylvania NOS short-bottle military ones so I could get some extra space on top.
  I just don't want to turn my shelf into a toaster oven (or risk melting/damaging the tube glass...)
  (If necessary, I can put it on a top shelf, but I would really like to use a lower shelf for convenience if I can manage it.)
  Thanks to everyone for their advice. Picture:
  http://www.modwright.com/galleries/8


----------



## tagosaku

That might be a different story. In my set up, comparing 12xx7s, the tube in CD player is considerably cooler (less hot) than in my integrated amp. 
   
  I think it is worth a try and see how hot the glass above gets.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Can I ask a question of the knowledgeable folks here?  I recently purchased (and quite like) a pair of 1940's vintage Tung-Sol 6SN7GTs but I have noticed that they don't appear to have identical construction.  Both are grey T-plate, but the older of the two tubes (1942) has copper grid posts and the newer (1945) has silver colored ones (I assume they are steel).  Should I be concerned about this at all or does it not affect sound/tone at all?  I keep thinking the tube with the copper posts sounds a bit better but it could very well be my imagination since I tend to obsess over details.
   
  Should I be worried over a detail like this at all?


----------



## Skylab

I'm like you - I can't use tubes that aren't completely identical in construction. Something about it just bothers me, even if it shouldn't.


----------



## tagosaku

the color of prints on the base matters to me - i can not hear any difference, but it does


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

...........


----------



## Groundzero

Question, How big is the bass difference between RCA grey glass and Ken Rad black glass? I'm bidding on both at the moment, leaning more towards the Ken Rads because of their low end. However, I'm torn because I don't have the money to buy both of the bidding gets intense. Could anyone who has listened to both elaborate on the most prominent differences between the two? What I'm trying to avoid is being on the fence, then coming out not winning either.


----------



## monsieurguzel

I wanted to let everyone know about my recent experience with some top end 6SN7 tubes, namely the Shuguang CV-181 Treasure and the Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Round Plate.  I've spent over a month with these and feel I have gotten comfortable with the sound of each and not judging based on the marketing hype of each.  These tubes were being used in a WA5 with Shuguang 300B-Z tubes and EML 5U4G Rectifiers.  The source is a PWD, which I consider to very revealing and neutral.  Finally the headphones used were HD800s and LCD-2s, both top end headphones that are extremely revealing.
   
  To me both of these tubes are actually very close in performance and in no way would I dismiss the CV-181 tube, even with the cream of the crop TS 6SN7GT.  On a headphone like the HD800 which can at times use a little extra oomph on the lower end, the Tung Sols definitely deliver in this department.   They are well detailed throughout the spectrum and have a nice lower end extension.  On the LCD-2, which tends to be darker of a headphone, the Tung Sols also perform beautifully, but can get every so slightly over-bassy to my liking.  The bass is very addicting and amazingly well detailed, but can get a little too noticeable during certain songs with low end acoustic guitars/drums on the LCD-2. 
   
  In this department, the CV-181 works very well with the LCD-2 and helps contain the bass a little and extend higher on the upper frequencies.  The CV-181 sounds also a little more detailed overall ("crystal clear" would be my way of putting it).  On the HD800s though, the Shuguangs can feel a little thin depending on music types you are listening to.  I could see classical working better with the CV-181 and more acoustic/jazz/rock sounding better with the Tung Sols.
   
  Anyhow, I've decided to keep both sets of tubes since they are each very appropriate to whatever music genre I might be listening to.  One has more warmth, punch, and lower end extension, while the other is more detail oriented and with a more neutral / clean presentation of the sound.


----------



## tagosaku

to Groundzero;
   
  To my ears, compared with each other RCA is more smooth and warm. Ken-rad comes with more detail (sharpness) and bass. And I remember some folks complaining that RCA does not have bass 
   
  (I prefer RCA with my SP MPX, but I think most people prefer Ken-rad. And not that it matters, but I prefer Raytheon GT extra rod much more than RCA.)


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





tagosaku said:


> And I remember some folks complaining that RCA does not have bass


 

 As of tonight you can count me as one of them.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  They aren't really weak down there, but the bass never stands out with these tubes.  At least not with anything I've listened to so far.  It gets a bit noticeable at the very low end but that is because the sound is becoming loose and tubby unfortunately.


----------



## regal

To me there is no contest the Ken-Rads have a full warm but punchy bass,  the RCA tend to be just punchy and a bit annoyingly sharp especially in the mid-bass.
   
   
  Quote: 





groundzero said:


> Question, How big is the bass difference between RCA grey glass and Ken Rad black glass? I'm bidding on both at the moment, leaning more towards the Ken Rads because of their low end. However, I'm torn because I don't have the money to buy both of the bidding gets intense. Could anyone who has listened to both elaborate on the most prominent differences between the two? What I'm trying to avoid is being on the fence, then coming out not winning either.


----------



## regal

Anyone buy older tubes like these should pick up a bottle of the Deoxit cleaner and the deoxit gold oil,   these products savalged several tubes I had that were noisy to dead cquiet after the cleaning,  works much better than a pencil eraser.


----------



## rosgr63

The Deoxit is a must for me.
  Sometimes I use Flitz with wire wool or cotton bud, then alcohol and the final coat is always Deoxit Gold.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The Deoxit is a must for me.
> Sometimes I use Flitz with wire wool or cotton bud, then alcohol and the final coat is always Deoxit Gold.


 


 I'm just glad you guys pointed this stuff out to me has paid for itself several times over.   What is Fitz?


----------



## Skylab

Absolutely - the pins must be cleaned well before they go in my amps!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





regal said:


> I'm just glad you guys pointed this stuff out to me has paid for itself several times over.   What is Fitz?


 
   
  Flitz is a cleaning agent, in liquid or paste form and the results are excellent.
  I use the paste.
  regal I thought you used it for your Buick!


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Flitz is a cleaning agent, in liquid or paste form and the results are excellent.
> I use the paste.


 

 Thanks, Stavros. Is it the paste that you mean?


----------



## rosgr63

Hello Danny,
   
  That's the one, highly recommended.
   
  My procedure is like this:
  1.Clean the pins with cotton buds dipped in methanol.
  2.Treat with Deoxit D
  3.After an hour or so treat with Deoxit Gold
   
  For rusty pins I use Flitz applied with a cotton bud or wire wool and then I clean with methanol before the final coat of Deoxit Gold.
   
  Some times I use silclear for my LD tube pins.
   
  Needles to say I always check old tubes with my refurbished and calibrated tube tester first before I run them on my amp.
   
  No 6SN7 goes on the BA unless is run on the SP for a couple of hours first.


----------



## regal

This is the best deal I found for the Flitz under $10 shipped for a decent sized bottle and takes paypal:
   
http://www.supremehardware.com/servlet/the-36642/Flitz-Metal-Polish/Detail


----------



## rosgr63

The Flitz web site is a joke.
  They state shipping etc to so many destinations but when you go through the steps you find out they don't.
  emailed them a few times and still waiting for a reply.
  It's been a long wait!


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Hello Danny,
> 
> That's the one, highly recommended.
> 
> ...


 


 Great, I use SilClear also, usually some ballpen eraser to rub the pins then clean it up with a brush then SilClear. It's a good contact paste with tubes and any other plugs etc. I'll try to find some Flitz in the hardware stores locally, thansk Stavros.
   
  But why wait an hour to treat the Deoxit Gold after the Deoxit D?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Danny,
   
  Only so that Deoxit D dries well first.
   
  Do you use silclear on your W22 tubes?


----------



## dannie01

Understood. Yeah, I put SilClear on all tubes of the WA22 after cleaned. Sounds nice. And I'll use it in my new babe, the WA5LE, coming next Monday.


----------



## Seamaster

I never wait for Deoxit to dry. No problem.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


seamaster said:


> I never wait for Deoxit to dry. No problem.


 

 Then you're not an addict!
   
  Must wait and adore the babies while they dry!


----------



## Xcalibur255

I don't wait for it to dry either.  Have had to wipe the stuff off the middle of the sockets before too. 
   
  Is the ProGold really a helpful addition to the process?  What I've always done is steel wool, deoxit to remove any remaining residue, then final clean with alcohol.  I don't leave deoxit on as the final coat anymore because it was making a mess in my tube sockets.  Aside from preventing new oxidation I don't see the benefit to the Pro Gold.  Then again I've never really had noise problems due to pin contact either.


----------



## rosgr63

That's why it's best to wait until it dries!


----------



## Xcalibur255

the deoxit never really seems to dry.  I've wiped some residue off the base of a tube that had been there for a month while it sat in its box.  The pro gold I'm sure dries because it has to, but I switched to only using the regular deoxit as a crud removal step because of this.


----------



## rosgr63

I find that the Deoxit D is only suitable for light marks.
  That's why I use Flitz with wire wool for stuborn marks.
  However I always use Deoxit Gold as the final step.


----------



## Groundzero

I forgot to say thanks Tagosaku and Regal for the Ken Rad opinions. I have a pair on the way thanks to Xcalibur, he found me an excellent deal. Now there is nothing to do but wait...
   
  In regards to pin cleaning, I've always used 2000 grit sand paper then swished the pins around in a small cup of grain alcohol. The stuff is 190 proof so they air dry in seconds.


----------



## Groundzero

I received my pair of Ken Rads today only to be disappointed. The bass isn't impressing me, they aren't as warm as I hoped, and they seem to lack depth. I'm thinking of going for a pair of Brimars but can't really find any info on which ones are good. Could someone who knows about Brimar point me in the right direction? There is this pair I'm thinking of bidding on http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320579336602&Category=39997#ht_500wt_1154 but I think I read something about the brown base cv1988 being better?


----------



## Blackmore

Not sure about these, had ones, which do look like the same, but only 6SL7 type, and when I used them in my Zana I didnt like it at all. I am looking for a pair of some UK made and thinking of CV1988 as well, which seems to be a very good tubes, but as always not that cheap. Thing is, tubes can sound differ in differ amps, so, thats why only by trying you will know for sure, unless someone else have the same amp as you, but also the same headphone set up and taste of music, which is, hmmm, unlikely?
  From info I got CV1988 are warmer than Sylvania Bad boys, without loosing the rest of the sound spectrum, so, I am in.


----------



## rosgr63

If you can try the CV1988/6SN7GTY.
  Not cheap but very nice.
  I agree with Blackmore the final test is your amp.


----------



## regal

Quote: 





groundzero said:


> I received my pair of Ken Rads today only to be disappointed. The bass isn't impressing me, they aren't as warm as I hoped, and they seem to lack depth. I'm thinking of going for a pair of Brimars but can't really find any info on which ones are good. Could someone who knows about Brimar point me in the right direction? There is this pair I'm thinking of bidding on http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320579336602&Category=39997#ht_500wt_1154 but I think I read something about the brown base cv1988 being better?


 


 You may want to give them more time,  leave the amp plugged in over the weekend.


----------



## Skylab

I agree with Regal!  Give the KenRads at least 24 hours to cook.  60 year old tubes need some serious wake-up time to sound their best.


----------



## francoamerican

I was wondering when this tung sol might have been made and if anybody has any experience with the sound quality relative to other 6sn7?


----------



## Xcalibur255

I have a pair of those.  They were made mostly in the early to mid 50's.  These are the same tube as the "Mouse Ears" actually, the tube started out with the mica spacers and then they dropped them in later production years. 
   
  IMO they are a mixed bag.  In terms of detail they are peerless, with incredible resolution and portrayal of texture.  Guitars sound stunning on these tubes, any kind of guitar.  They also are very well controlled with polite but fast bass and good instrument separation.  But...... I find them to be a rather dry sounding tube that doesn't convey any of the emotion in music.  I think their biggest failing is a noticeable lack of dynamics.  They are very polite in this regard and seem to "pull their punches" so to speak during fast transients or changes in loudness.  This is probably their biggest weakness.  If you like a neutral tube that isn't warm sounding and can live with this flaw though they are a great performer otherwise.  There are lots of worse 6SN7 tubes out there and not too many that are better.  Of course keep in mind this is just my opinion coming from my experience in the WA6 which operates them as both signal and power tube.  They may perform differently purely as a signal tube in a different amp.


----------



## rosgr63

I use a Tung-Sol mouse ears as a driver on my SP and it sounds great.
  Best value for money so far, bass is nice, great mids, controlled highs.


----------



## musicman59

I bought a pair of Tungsol black glass/round plates 6SN7GT and a pair of Tungsol black glass/round plates 6F8G with adapters. I have been using them in my WA5-LE as drivers. The 6SN7 is very polite with nice soundstage but a little bit thing in the bass section. It does great with acoustinc music or music with a lot of midrange. I found the 6F8G a lot more dynamic with the same characteristics in the nidrange and higs as the 6SN7 but with a lot more authority in the bass section. The 6F9G not only sound better to my ears and with the type of music I listen to (Pop, light rock) but at 35% of the price of the 6SN7 they are a total bargain.


----------



## rosgr63

musicman59 are the 6F8G electrically the same as the 6SN7?


----------



## OutdoorXplorer

I bought a matched pair of ShuGuang Treasure 50 years CV181-Z as a 6SN7 replacement for my WA6SE. It is being shipped now and arriving in the next couple of days.. Can't wait to try it out and I pretty sure it needs some time to burn in before hearing any refinement.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I bought a pair of Tungsol black glass/round plates 6SN7GT and a pair of Tungsol black glass/round plates 6F8G with adapters. I have been using them in my WA5-LE as drivers. The 6SN7 is very polite with nice soundstage but a little bit thing in the bass section. It does great with acoustinc music or music with a lot of midrange. I found the 6F8G a lot more dynamic with the same characteristics in the nidrange and higs as the 6SN7 but with a lot more authority in the bass section. The 6F9G not only sound better to my ears and with the type of music I listen to (Pop, light rock) but at 35% of the price of the 6SN7 they are a total bargain.


 

 Finally someone get the right picture here. But since price of 6F8G has risen so much, they are not diamond in the rough anymore.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> musicman59 are the 6F8G electrically the same as the 6SN7?


 


 Identical


----------



## francoamerican

Xcalibur255 thanks so much for the info.  I'm surprised how similar your experience is with mine!  Almost makes me believe that "hifi" is real!  
   
  I hadn't experienced any "tube like euphoria" and had been concerned about dynamics and it sounds like I ought to consider rolling in another tube to perhaps change things around for fun.
   
  Best
   
  FA


----------



## rosgr63

Seamaster that means an adapter with a top tap would make the 6F8G a direct replacement right?


----------



## Blackmore

Are there anyone who tried 6SN7GT Mullards? Any feedback are welcome. I am thinking of CV1988 or these, thx.
   



  Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## rosgr63

Are these original British or Russian made but branded British?
  I have an original all black, glass and base but never tried it yet.


----------



## Blackmore

I dont know, maybe it is an fake one, but the one you mean is the one on the left, right?
   
  I like Mullards and can imagine the differences between them and CV1988, where I expect Mullards to be more warmish and having better mids, but thats my guess only, any idea?
   



  Uploaded with ImageShack.us


  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Are these original British or Russian made but branded British?
> I have an original all black, glass and base but never tried it yet.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Seamaster that means an adapter with a top tap would make the 6F8G a direct replacement right?


 


 Yes, like this:


----------



## Groundzero

Quote:


regal said:


> You may want to give them more time,  leave the amp plugged in over the weekend.


 
  Quote:


skylab said:


> I agree with Regal!  Give the KenRads at least 24 hours to cook.  60 year old tubes need some serious wake-up time to sound their best.


 

 I put about 40hrs on the Ken Rads so far and they still sound off. Vocals are too mixed into the music and are unrefined, the treble is cold, and the mids seem overpowered by the bass. The biggest let down is the warmth, or rather I should say lack of warmth. They have a lot of great qualities but overall they aren't emotional enough for me to be happy. Now I'm questioning going for some bad boys, or grey glass. I can't seem to find out if the bad boys are actually warm though, and not just very sweet. Can anyone confirm this?


----------



## Skylab

I don't think of the Bad Boys as warm.  If you want warmth most of all, then I suggest the RCA grey-glass.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I would've been all set to offer a direct comparison between the bad boys and the rca greyglass, but my just arrived bad boys are not in working order sadly.  The tubes themselves are both functioning, one of them just doesn't like my socket adapters.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> I dont know, maybe it is an fake one, but the one you mean is the one on the left, right?
> 
> I like Mullards and can imagine the differences between them and CV1988, where I expect Mullards to be more warmish and having better mids, but thats my guess only, any idea?


 

 No it isn't, it has some markings on the base, it's a rare one that's why I don't use it.
  I have some Mullard ECC33 which have the best mids I've heard so far, one of my favorite tubes.
  The Brimar B65 with brown base are relatively cheap and with nice mids.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> Yes, like this:


 
  That's what I had in mind, thanks seamaster.


----------



## Blackmore

The only ECC33 Mullard I could find is the one with yellow print on the glass with black base, but not sure if this tube is direct replacement for 6SN7.
   
   
  Would that be to much trouble for you to post a pic of your Mullards pls. Right now I can get CV1988 or almost same looking 6SN7GT Black base with print on it, black coated long glass, however I am not in the mood to experimenting really, cos these guys arent cheap, here we go
   



  Uploaded with ImageShack.us
   



  Uploaded with ImageShack.us


  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> No it isn't, it has some markings on the base, it's a rare one that's why I don't use it.
> I have some Mullard ECC33 which have the best mids I've heard so far, one of my favorite tubes.
> The Brimar B65 with brown base are relatively cheap and with nice mids.


----------



## rosgr63

What you have there is a Mullard ECC32 which is not a direct replacement.
  The ECC33 has white writting and is a direct replacement.
  I'll post some photos later on.


----------



## rosgr63

This is the one!


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks for the pic, isnt this tube looks like Brimar CV1988 or 6SN7GT from my last pic above?
   
  Other than that, pretty rare print on base, truly collecting item


----------



## rosgr63

It's a 6SN7GT the the print makes it rare, performance wise I wouldn't expect it's any different from the Brimar unless the number of supports etc is different.


----------



## Skylab

That tube with the yellow print that says "ECC32" is a fake of some sort, for sure.  There were absolutely no straight-bottle ECC32's.  That pic is so small I can;t see the plates well enough to tell what it really is, but it is NOT any form of ECC32 - someone just silk-screened that on there to try to rip someone off.
   
  You have to look at the plates and getter - the internal construction of the tube - to know what you're really getting.  There are lots of people good at silkscreening.  But they can't fake what's inside.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I finally got my bad boys working (they're not quite what I expected but I'm not passing judgement until they break in), but I have a question for the knowledgeable folks here.  Upon close inspection the mica plates appear to have their bottom most layer beginning to separate, with a thin layer saggin down a bit.  Should I be concerned about this at all?  Also, I can hear something rattling inside one of them, but cannot locate anything loose inside the glass envelope.  Both tubes are functioning correctly, and I'm not noticing any tonal and volume abnormalities.  Just worried about over the longevity of the tubes after paying a lot for them.


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, are these some Russian or Chinees fakes, cos there is no other print on it than just that on glass. To me they look like Russians 6N8S, but than again, whats up with the printed code? Are they ever use 6SN7GT code on their valves?
   



  Uploaded with ImageShack.us
   



  Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur sometimes rattling is not a problem, you may even get broken glass in some tubes and that's fine.
   
  Blackmore, you can get some genuine 6SN7 cheap, fakes are not worth it.
   
  Even re-issues are not as well made as the old tubes, the sections may not be balanced and they show leakage above 1MEG.


----------



## Blackmore

Not going to buy them in any case, but if its Russians, than the guy sells fakes and thats not good and need some action.


----------



## Skylab

Sergei, those are absolutely Russian tubes.


----------



## Xcalibur255

With only about 4 hours on them the Bad Boy Sylvanias already sound wicked good.  This tube's reputation is well deserved.  This tube was made for the K701 headphones.  It plays to all of its strengths while masking its weaknesses.  Well, with one exception..... they seem to exacerbate the odd sensation of having three blobs for a soundstage (left, center right) with nothing in the spaces between sometimes. 
   
  Oh?  And what's this?  _*Bass?*_  On my K701s?  Well, it's a pleasure to finally meet you!


----------



## KingStyles

Just curious, what is the differences in sound that two tubes that both test good but one test high and the other test a lot lower. Will the one that test stronger sound louder or will there be any other differences?


----------



## Blackmore

I may be wrong, but most important that the tube doesnt have any shorts and is not microfonic. The rest, I believe, doesnt make any difference, however we are talking about both strong tested tubes, where one is just less strong than another.
   
  I had a quad of NOS GEC KT88 where one was on his last days, so I thought, but I never had any problems with it. Another good example were NOS 6550 TUNG SOLS with black smooth plates, man, these sound great even they are weak tested, so, maybe it depends on tube type and brand, can be, but I am not sure of it.
  
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Just curious, what is the differences in sound that two tubes that both test good but one test high and the other test a lot lower. Will the one that test stronger sound louder or will there be any other differences?


----------



## rosgr63

With an unbalanced 6SN7 driver where the two sections were good but different I couldn't notice any difference.
  However with a week Mullard 6080 and a strong Brimar 6080 as Power Tubes the unbalance and SQ differences were obvious.


----------



## Groundzero

Can anyone tell me if these are some decent Brimars? I'm having a hard time trying to find information on which ones are good.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160483250936&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


----------



## mrarroyo

My Brimar looks a bit different.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





groundzero said:


> Can anyone tell me if these are some decent Brimars? I'm having a hard time trying to find information on which ones are good.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160483250936&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


 

 They look fine.
  Go for them, but be prepared for a higher price than the current bid.
  Best are the 6SN7GTY.


----------



## Groundzero

Quote:


rosgr63 said:


> They look fine.
> Go for them, but be prepared for a higher price than the current bid.
> Best are the 6SN7GTY.


 

 Thanks. Could you advise me on a cutoff point for that particular kind?


----------



## rosgr63

They usually go for GBP40 to GBP50 each


----------



## fmzip

Quote: 





monsieurguzel said:


> I wanted to let everyone know about my recent experience with some top end 6SN7 tubes, namely the Shuguang CV-181 Treasure and the Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Round Plate.  I've spent over a month with these and feel I have gotten comfortable with the sound of each and not judging based on the marketing hype of each.  These tubes were being used in a WA5 with Shuguang 300B-Z tubes and EML 5U4G Rectifiers.  The source is a PWD, which I consider to very revealing and neutral.  Finally the headphones used were HD800s and LCD-2s, both top end headphones that are extremely revealing.
> 
> To me both of these tubes are actually very close in performance and in no way would I dismiss the CV-181 tube, even with the cream of the crop TS 6SN7GT.  On a headphone like the HD800 which can at times use a little extra oomph on the lower end, the Tung Sols definitely deliver in this department.   They are well detailed throughout the spectrum and have a nice lower end extension.  On the LCD-2, which tends to be darker of a headphone, the Tung Sols also perform beautifully, but can get every so slightly over-bassy to my liking.  The bass is very addicting and amazingly well detailed, but can get a little too noticeable during certain songs with low end acoustic guitars/drums on the LCD-2.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the info....debating which to get. The cost of the Shuguang CV-181 Treasure's are attractive, can buy a bunch of them or a pair of the TS 6SN7GT's. 
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/1-Matched-Pair-ShuGuang-50years-TREASURE-Tubes-CV181-Z-/320563745264?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa31691f0


----------



## rosgr63

My recommendation is to go for a nice pair of TSBGRP's first.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> My recommendation is to go for a nice pair of TSBGRP's first.


 


  I think the hype given the TS. is only going to send the price up,,I would buy the Tung Sol now too.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote: 





groundzero said:


> Can anyone tell me if these are some decent Brimars? I'm having a hard time trying to find information on which ones are good.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160483250936&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:


 
  I had no Idea there were so many different Brimar 6SN7GT..The 6SN7GTY hardly ever come up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-BRIMAR-BLACK-GLASS-NOS-/260646296312?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3cafbadaf8#ht_500wt_1156
http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-CV1988-BRIMAR-NOS-/280538144036?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item4151605d24#ht_500wt_1156
http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-BRIMAR-NOS-/260639238170?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3caf4f281a#ht_500wt_1156


----------



## Blackmore

Buy CV1988 and you be done with it, imo. Here the one to get
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/d/10248-2/Brimar+CV1988+6SN7GTY+Late+1957+Round+Getter+Brown+Micanol+Base+-+STC+Footscray+England.jpg
   


  
  Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> I had no Idea there were so many different Brimar 6SN7GT..The 6SN7GTY hardly ever come up.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-BRIMAR-BLACK-GLASS-NOS-/260646296312?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3cafbadaf8#ht_500wt_1156
> http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-CV1988-BRIMAR-NOS-/280538144036?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item4151605d24#ht_500wt_1156
> http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-BRIMAR-NOS-/260639238170?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3caf4f281a#ht_500wt_1156


----------



## rosgr63

Even the 6SN7GTY comes in two flavors, long and short plates.


----------



## rosgr63

I have been told that there are 8 variants of the ECC32 does anybody know them?


----------



## Skylab

I have black base and brown base Mullard made.  I think Philips also made one of each in Holland.  Not sure what the other 4 would be...


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks skylab.
  Bentley and Chelmer ore other brand names but all made by Mullard I believe.
  I mean Mullard ECC32s with different construction details such as cup or wire getters, black or brown base, round or flat plates, black or clear glass, etc.


----------



## Skylab

I have a pair branded Chelmer, and one branded Zaerix.  They are for sure Mullard-made.  They look identical to my Mullards.
   
  All of the ones I have (8 in total) have identical internals - black round plates.  The black base have a little different coating (the "gray glass"), but otherwise identical to the brown base.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





markmaxx said:


> I had no Idea there were so many different Brimar 6SN7GT..The 6SN7GTY hardly ever come up.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-BRIMAR-BLACK-GLASS-NOS-/260646296312?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3cafbadaf8#ht_500wt_1156
> http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-CV1988-BRIMAR-NOS-/280538144036?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item4151605d24#ht_500wt_1156
> http://cgi.ebay.com/6SN7GT-BRIMAR-NOS-/260639238170?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item3caf4f281a#ht_500wt_1156


 
  Be careful with this ebay seller. I bought a pair of Mullard 6SN7GT that originally he said that they were coded like that because they were made for the USA market. Blackmore identified them as not Mullard but Tungsram so after questioning him he admitted they were Tungsram made for Mullard. What I really believe they were actually Tungsram re-branded by himself as Mullard. I was able to return them and get a full refund. I would make a lot of specific questions before buying any of these Brimar. One thing strange is that the lettering looks very new just like those Mullard I bought.


----------



## rosgr63

It was lucky Blackmore knew about the real tube, otherwise it would have been a disaster.


----------



## rosgr63

Does anybody have any info about the Mullard ECC33 Black Base with Yellow Print?


----------



## Skylab

Can you post or link to a picture?  There are some of those that are really Russian tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

I believe they are original Mullard circa 1963-1964.
  They used yellow paint for a couple of years.


----------



## Skylab

Those are definitely real. You can tell by the plates. I have never heard them, though.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I believe they are original Mullard circa 1963-1964.
> They used yellow paint for a couple of years.


 


 It's really a pair of beauty!


----------



## rosgr63

They test extremely strong with very well balanced sections.
  Sound check to follow, hope they sound as good as they test.


----------



## musicman59

You lucky dog! Where did you find them? I have been looking for real Mullards (ECC33 or ECC32) for long time with no luck.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is a pic of a ECC32 with Gap Getter currently under test on one of my SP Extremes.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> You lucky dog! Where did you find them? I have been looking for real Mullards (ECC33 or ECC32) for long time with no luck.


 


  One of my sellers is US based but I can't recommend him as I currently have a dispute with him.
  I also use an Ex Mullard electronics engineer who unfortunately has some health issues right now.
  Otherwise they occasionally turn up on ebay.


----------



## yomomma1

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> You lucky dog! Where did you find them? I have been looking for real Mullards (ECC33 or ECC32) for long time with no luck.


 


  You'd be surprised how many tubes can be found in old photography stores. Yes sounds strange but I have seen a box full of them a few years ago in a 2nd hand photography shop. Worth a check if you have one near you.


----------



## rosgr63

Has anybody tried the 33S30B?
  How does it compare to the RCA 5692?


----------



## Skylab

I have heard good things about those, but never actually heard, or even seen, a pair, myself...


----------



## rosgr63

Well it's giving the Mullards a hard time!


----------



## Skylab

LOL!  That's high praise!  Those are almost never seen here in the US, just sometimes in the EU...


----------



## rosgr63

They sound well balanced in my system, lows, mids, highs are nicely balanced.
  Clear sound and nice soundstage.
  This is in my system and to my ears.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Has anybody tried the 33S30B?


 
  I havent even been able to get a sniff of one on the web yet. I am sure I will find one some day.


----------



## Blackmore

Now you are getting my attention. Do you mean that these Standard's are less high end, but more musical? I bet they will sound just right together, Standard's and Mullards I mean.

  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Well it's giving the Mullards a hard time!


----------



## rosgr63

Yes they are less high/middle end.
  I think together with the Mullard will be excellent.


----------



## Wedge

I have been searching around for NOS 6SN7s, I am finding next to impossible to find some of the better ones, Like the Tung Sol Round plates.  I would like a pair of Mullard's but I never would have thought to pay $600.00 for a pair.  Can I ask where you guys are getting your 6SN7s from lately, or have you already had them for the last few years.  I stopped looking at 6SN7s for a few years and it seems to me that the prices have gone up pretty significantly.
   
  I just ordered a WA-5 because it uses 6SN7s and I would love to have an amp that uses them again.  Also I wanted to have a 300B SET amp.


----------



## Skylab

I buy the "fancy" 6SN7's from Paul Lindemann over on Audiogon.  His stuff is the real deal.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I buy the "fancy" 6SN7's from Paul Lindemann over on Audiogon.  His stuff is the real deal.


 

 Rob, what is Paul's user id in Audiogon?


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I have been searching around for NOS 6SN7s, I am finding next to impossible to find some of the better ones, Like the Tung Sol Round plates.  I would like a pair of Mullard's but I never would have thought to pay $600.00 for a pair.


 

 I hear ya.  Painful.  But I've found the so-called second- and third-tier 6SN7s to be very, very good in general, often very close to the so-called best.  I have some 1967 Sylvanias which are nobody's idea of a super-desirable vintage, and they're truly excellent.  It's a great tube overall - still plenty of affordable performance.


----------



## dminches

Paul_Lindeman


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





innerspace said:


> I hear ya.  Painful.  But I've found the so-called second- and third-tier 6SN7s to be very, very good in general, often very close to the so-called best.  I have some 1967 Sylvanias which are nobody's idea of a super-desirable vintage, and they're truly excellent.  It's a great tube overall - still plenty of affordable performance.


 
   
  Would you divulge where you might find the so-called second- and third-tier 6SN7s?


----------



## tagosaku

Even though eBay has fewer good deals compared with a few years ago, with patience and luck (and a tube tester), you can still find decent deals.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Paul_Lindeman


 


   Are you sure of the ID? The member look-up function is coming back as not found.


----------



## dminches

Sorry, Paul_Lindemann


----------



## 9pintube

I've got and have used all of the "favorites 6sn7 tubes" and I've found in my equipment the best sounding brands or types are the Sylvania "Brown Base" and the RCA "Red Base" 6sn7 tubes........Many people started collecting and selling for big bucks these (TOP DOG) the Sylvania Metal base "very Micro-phonic" and at $395.00 a pr..is just to much... I was lucky and got 6 of these before the price went through the roof.... Another favorite are the Ken Rad 6sn7(VT231) "black glass" Micro-phonic IMO.... and then you have your Tung-Sol "Mouse Ear" 6sn7 many times Black Glass..... So IMO and what works best for me in my custom made (Chris Ivan Audio) Line stage are the brown base's or the Red base, But as a tube roller (but not anal about it), I am using the Ken-Rad VT231" Black Glass",right now, so go figure.... Now in my 300B Mono block "Mid-range" amps (Chris Ivan Audio) I never change the RCA "Red Base (5692) 6sn7, they just sound, and will last forever with the W.E. 300B's........IMO I'd watch for the deals...... A guy on Audiogon that goes by "SAM" has the most highly sought after tubes, plus many, 9-pin tubes, like the 7308's etc.etc. but he's High on many tubes.... But remember the NOS red bases are probably the longest lasting tube you can get... correct me if any Info is wrong!!!! duke


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I buy the "fancy" 6SN7's from Paul Lindemann over on Audiogon.  His stuff is the real deal.


 

 Skylab, do you get your Mullard's from him as well?  I am really interested in buying a pair of Mullard ECC32s.  If you wouldn't mind divulging your source and around how much you think they go for.


----------



## Skylab

I bought my ECC32's from Brendan at Tubeworld. When I bought them they were going for $400/pair for NOS. These days though they seem to be going for $600/pair. even used ones on EBay seem to be going for $350+ a pair these days. Sometimes you can get the ones branded Chelmer Valve for a little less.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





wedge said:


> Would you divulge where you might find the so-called second- and third-tier 6SN7s?


 

 For a good overview, visit Brent Jessee's site (audiotubes.com) and scroll down the 6SN7 page until you get to the $30-ish tubes.  You'll find plenty there - weird OEM labels, tiny differences between one tube and a more famous brother, non-militarized versions (is your amp really next to a working howitzer?) and so on.  The NOS market is to some extent driven by names, labels, and herd instinct, and you can find virtual twins where one goes for $300 and the other goes for $30.
   
  And remember the 6SN7 more than many other tubes was (primarily) sold for one highly specific and highly specified task (well, two actually, one side each) deep inside old fashioned TV sets.  They either worked properly, or they didn't.  No shades of gray.  Audio use was never their primary purpose, so they lived or died in a far less subjective universe.  So while enthusiasts celebrate their differences, their differences are pretty small compared to many other tubes, and definitely very small compared to the other parts and components we live with on a daily basis.


----------



## Skylab

Actually, in terms of physical construction differences, the 6SN7 has a remarkably wide variety, much more than most tube types. The 6DJ8, by comparison, has only very minor differences between the versions people seem willing to pay big bucks for, and the ones you can still easily get for $25 each.

Given that the very cheapest of current production tubes go for about $20, many 6SN7's are indeed a bargain, that's for sure. I have a ton of Sylvania 6SN7WGT's I bought for $25 each NOS. That's about what the current production Russian 6SN7's cost, and the Sylvanias sound much better.

But you can get vintage Russian 6SN7 equivalents for $5 each NOS, and these don't sound bad at all. One for sure does not have to spend huge bucks for decent tubes. I do think some 6N7's sound notably better than others, but the circuit they are used in matters more.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Skylab, do you get your Mullard's from him as well?  I am really interested in buying a pair of Mullard ECC32s.  If you wouldn't mind divulging your source and around how much you think they go for.


 
  I ended up paying $500 for my set of ecc32. That was through a private source so I would imagine they would be more through shops. I saw some a couple of weeks ago on ebay going for about $400.
   
  I have better luck buying tubes on ebay than anywhere else. The tubes have always been nos (that I can tell) and cheaper than anywhere else. The good tubes tend to go in streaks. Check ebay, audiogon, etc everyday and you will find what you want eventually. What I cant find today, next month I will be able to find 10 of them.
   
  On another note, I think the tung-sol BPRG is over rated.They are fast and detailed and neutral from top to bottom, but they lack any richness or warmth making them boring. If you want a solid state amp sound, than this is the tube for you. If you want a rich, textured, or warm, sound, then you better look elsewhere.


----------



## Wedge

I have to agree, I noticed the NOS tubes tend to sound better by quite a bit in some cases.  A very noticeable difference.  I am very unsure whether its worth an almost $550 in some cases.  Thanks for the info Skylab.


----------



## rosgr63

Another under ratted tube is the Westinghouse 6SN7GTB Flat Black or Grey Plates, Tall Bottle.
  Worth a try.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I ended up paying $500 for my set of ecc32. That was through a private source so I would imagine they would be more through shops. I saw some a couple of weeks ago on ebay going for about $400.
> 
> I have better luck buying tubes on ebay than anywhere else. The tubes have always been nos (that I can tell) and cheaper than anywhere else. The good tubes tend to go in streaks. Check ebay, audiogon, etc everyday and you will find what you want eventually. What I cant find today, next month I will be able to find 10 of them.
> 
> On another note, I think the tung-sol BPRG is over rated.They are fast and detailed and neutral from top to bottom, but they lack any richness or warmth making them boring. If you want a solid state amp sound, than this is the tube for you. If you want a rich, textured, or warm, sound, then you better look elsewhere.


 


  I prefer the ECC32 over the TS BGRP, where I can use them.  It's important to note that the ECC32 is NOT a 6SN7.  It can often be used in place of a 6SN7, but it draws 50% more heater current, so you have to make sure the amp's power transformer can handle that.
   
  I asked Cary if I could use the ECC32 in my SLP-05 preamp, and while they said yes, the fact is they don't really fit in the Cary's tube sockets which are recessed below the chassis top.  I do use them in my RSA Stealth, but I had to remove the decorative tube socket accents to do so.


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> I prefer the ECC32 over the TS BGRP, where I can use them.  It's important to note that the ECC32 is NOT a 6SN7.  It can often be used in place of a 6SN7, but it draws 50% more heater current, so you have to make sure the amp's power transformer can handle that.


 
  Just curious if you find the treble on the ecc32 a little thin or odd sounding. When I hear cymbols and highhats, they dont have any shimmer or metalic sound to them. They sound dampened.


----------



## Skylab

I can't say that I have ever noticed that, no. But since the ECC32 is different from the 6N7, it may react differently in some circuits that others. But where I have used it, in the RSA Stealth and the Singlepower MPX3 and Extreme, I never noticed it. I rally wish I could use them in my Cary preamp, but they just won't fit.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Actually, in terms of physical construction differences, the 6SN7 has a remarkably wide variety, much more than most tube types.


 

 Yes, I certainly didn't mean that all 6SN7s look the same or are built the same.  There is variety, indeed, all the more interesting in that every one of them was designed and re-designed to do exactly the same tightly-specified non-audio job.  (Voltage and current specs altered three times, I believe, as CRTs got bigger.)  That - when pressed into audio service, which happened quite quickly - they sounded different from one another was a happy accident.  My point was that whereas many tube types _were_ audio-specific, and hence revisited between versions with at least part of an ear on sound quality, 6SN7 development was constrained by technical demands quite different from audio.  Thus, while there are (happily accidental even if fairly pronounced) differences between them, I believe the 6SN7's overall span from "best" to "worst" is narrower than that for many other tubes, making random NOS choices a _little_ safer than might be expected.


----------



## Skylab

That all makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification. I do agree that I have really not run into a NOS 6SN7 that sounds flat out BAD (assuming it tests good!). 

What is also fascinating to me, in light of what you said above, is that all current production 6SN7 types are in fact being manufactured just for audio, and yet, none of them sound very good to me, and some, like the EH, sound bloody awful.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





skylab said:


> What is also fascinating to me, in light of what you said above, is that all current production 6SN7 types are in fact being manufactured just for audio, and yet, none of them sound very good to me, and some, like the EH, sound bloody awful.


 

 Agreed.  Although I felt the new Sophia was pretty good.  (And very handsome physically.)  It was maybe a tad bass-light and a little too airy.  Strange soundstage, though - incredibly deep, but extremely narrow.  Like wearing a canoe on your head.
   
  I think the reason is simply "design drift" ... the old CRT imperatives are long gone, and the discipline they imposed therefore no longer exists, and therefore the new manufacturers - with no institutional memory or data - are kind of wandering with no fixed parameters to guide them.  The 6SN7's job was specific and difficult - and crucial: anyone here remember how annoying it was when a TV picture was rolling vertically?  Those criteria were fixed points.  Without them, anything can happen, mostly for the worst.


----------



## Skylab

Agreed on all counts about the Sophia. Ultimately, though, not worth the money, since I felt even a "basic" Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounded better overall.

And I see your point about "design drift". This is certainly the case with the new Shuggie "CV181", which other than looking like one somewhat, actually isn't a CV181/ECC32 at all.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Agreed on all counts about the Sophia. Ultimately, though, not worth the money, since I felt even a "basic" Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounded better overall.


 


  It was the Sylvanias that prompted my point.  Lots of versions over thirty or so years, and while you can have preferences, you can't really go wrong.


----------



## Skylab

Absolutely. I have all sorts of different Sylvania 6SN7's, and they all sound good.


----------



## dminches

Fascinating discussion you guys are having.  I did not realize that 6SN7s were used in TVs.  How did they control the vertical roll?  I can remember having to adjust the vertical hold knob every so finely to make it stop rolling.
   
  I have been using Shuguang CV-181s in my modwright transporter and have enjoyed it over other 6SN7 NOS so far.  Part of the issue is finding the right pairing with the rectifier.  Currently I am using an EML Mesh 5U4G.  Several of the other 6SN7s sounded very digital and edgy to me with the EML.  I am going to try a Tung Sol 5U4G next.  I haven't used the TS BGRPs in the MWTP since that's what I have in my pre-amp and I didn't want to "double up."  Any recommendations are welcome.  I haven't tried the pair of 5692 red bases that I got from Rob.


----------



## Skylab

Dave it will be interesting to see what you think when you get the Tung-Sol 5U4G. I think it's actually the EML that sounds edgy, not the 6SN7's you tried, but I could be wrong - I'm basing that on my dislike for the Sophia mesh plate.


----------



## dminches

That would be interesting.  Several guys over at audiocircle.com are tube-heads and love the NOS variety but also really like the EML (and don't like the Sophia).  Obviously it is all personal preference.
   
  Maybe I am listening to too much vinyl and anything digital is going to sound a tad harsh.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Fascinating discussion you guys are having.  I did not realize that 6SN7s were used in TVs.  How did they control the vertical roll?  I can remember having to adjust the vertical hold knob every so finely to make it stop rolling.


 

 Half the tube amplified an endless stream of rapid-fire sawtooth voltage pulses that made the vertical oscillator pin the raster out of sight top and bottom of the picture.  If the frequency drifted (not the 6SN7's fault) or the gain drifted (the 6SN7's fault) the raster would come unpinned and roll up or down quickly or slowly.  The vertical hold knob was a gain control for half the tube, basically.
   
  Summer of 1973 I made some bucks buying big old console TVs and gutting them and selling the consoles as cocktail cabinets.  I cringe when I think how many good 6SN7's I must have trashed.  I took out the speakers and wired dozens a side series-parallel on big open baffles and sold those too.  They sounded awful, but they paid for my first semester of college.  That and poker.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I don't think the EML inherently adds harshness or sounds bright personally, but they are more extended and less forgiving at the top end than than any NOS rectifier I have tried.  Through my own tube rolling I've found I like the EML a lot with the very best of my 6SN7 and like it less and less when used with lesser tubes.  I think it is revealing the distortion and limitations in the less capable tube designs more than anything.  TSRP and Bad Boys are not edgy (especially the Bad Boys, they pair extremely well with the EML) at the top, but most of my other tubes are resulting in a sort of "best with the best" and "rest with the rest" pairing of tubes in my collection.  It just seemed to work out that way.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That all makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification. I do agree that I have really not run into a NOS 6SN7 that sounds flat out BAD (assuming it tests good!).
> 
> What is also fascinating to me, in light of what you said above, is that all current production 6SN7 types are in fact being manufactured just for audio, and yet, none of them sound very good to me, and some, like the EH, sound bloody awful.


 


  Not only the EH 6SN7 are awful Rob. I bought a pair of HE 5U4G rectifiers as back up and thank God they are not much money because they are terrible too.


----------



## Wedge

Do you guys feel that the Tung-Sol 6SN7 new productions are aweful sounding?  I thought they were ok.  I really feel mostly that the new production tubes are kind of missing the whole point of using tubes in the first place.  But in general I feel like a lot of tube amps have become that way.


----------



## Skylab

I was sent a Tung-Sol new production 6SN7GTB's with my Cary SLP-05 preamp. No surprise - they have to send something! But the preamp sounded so much better with NOS tubes in it, it really wasn't even close.


----------



## 9pintube

Quote:


skylab said:


> I was sent a Tung-Sol new production 6SN7GTB's with my Cary SLP-05 preamp. No surprise - they have to send something! But the preamp sounded so much better with NOS tubes in it, it really wasn't even close.


 
  I'd have to agree 110% with Skylab on this subject... IMO and with my Equipment, just about any NOS tube that have been mentioned above, can not hold a candle to most "new prodution tubes"... Also JMO, but this holds true for most newly manufactured tubes that are being made new today...(well there might be a few), feel free to correct me if I'm wrong......


----------



## Wedge

I agree the NOS do sound better.  I guess I was just wondering what the impressions were on the new productions, I see some people really hate the EH ones, was wondering how people felt about the Tung-Sol ones.  This line of questions is probably semi moot anyways since I just ordered a pair of Tung-Sol Round Plate Black Glass, Sylvania Metal Base, Chelmer ECC32, RCA VT231 Smoke Glass, and Sylvania VT-231, as well as Shuguang Treasures, hehe.  I suppose I have Skylab to thank for my empty bank account as I probably would have never bought any of them if I hadn't been pointed to a good place to buy them.  I ordered a WA-5 and had the Shuguangs on the order already, but since I like NOS more than new production in general I figured why not do a little rolling.  I went with EMLs for the 300Bs though cause I'm just way to afraid to pay for NOS Western Electric 300Bs (upwards of 1-2K per tube is a little nuts for me).  I am still young and don't make that much money.


----------



## Xcalibur255

It seems that whatever the engineers are targeting with development of new tubes and the desires of the people buying them are at cross purposes.  I'm sure the curves and distortion levels are fine with modern tubes, but the sound doesn't resonate with people or carry the emotion in the music the way a NOS tubes will.  What I continue to wonder is, assuming the trend is fairly obvious and the continued consumption of NOS tubes has indicated the desires of buyers, why don't companies producing new tubes attempt to engineer their tubes to sound like the best NOS tubes?  It's not like they can't get a NOS tube, listen to it, study it, and then steadily work on making their new products sound more like it.  If I were part of a company like EML I would be trying to design a re-issue 6SN7 that sounds like a cross between a TSRP and a Sylvania Bad Boy, only perhaps with better distortion characteristics than either.  You could charge a good price for them and people would clamor for them to avoid the stress of the NOS tube hunt.


----------



## Skylab

No doubt, if someone could come up with a really GOOD sounding New production 6SN7, I bet they could sell a bunch. A lot of people swear by the new Genelex tubes of several types - 6922, EL84...so it has to be possible to make a good sounding 6SN7. I was really hoping Blackburn Microtech was going to get there, as they produced a fine sounding 12AX7 during their brief life.


----------



## musicman59

Anybody has experience with the 6SN7 from Create Audio?


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> It seems that whatever the engineers are targeting with development of new tubes and the desires of the people buying them are at cross purposes.  I'm sure the curves and distortion levels are fine with modern tubes, but the sound doesn't resonate with people or carry the emotion in the music the way a NOS tubes will.  What I continue to wonder is, assuming the trend is fairly obvious and the continued consumption of NOS tubes has indicated the desires of buyers, why don't companies producing new tubes attempt to engineer their tubes to sound like the best NOS tubes?  It's not like they can't get a NOS tube, listen to it, study it, and then steadily work on making their new products sound more like it.  If I were part of a company like EML I would be trying to design a re-issue 6SN7 that sounds like a cross between a TSRP and a Sylvania Bad Boy, only perhaps with better distortion characteristics than either.  You could charge a good price for them and people would clamor for them to avoid the stress of the NOS tube hunt.


 

 I am an electrical engineer by profession and I guess I have some thoughts about developing re-issues of old devices.  It is an art to reverse engineer someone else's work.  The world is programmed in general to believe that if you write a specification, any design that meets the specification will work the same in the same application, but it really just isn't reality.  So you can poke and prod the device, but sometimes you just can't recreate it perfectly.  Also the other challenge is when you say well lets get better distortion characteristics, thats when you start to get to mucking with the "sound" that the particular design had.  With this said I have seen a number of very good technologies die along with those who mastered them and decided that they wanted to keep the competitive edge for themselves.
   
  Most people that I know believe that people like the sound of tubes better than solid state because of their distortion characteristics.  Tubes generally have more emphasis on second order harmonic as opposed to a BJT which might have more third order content than a tube would.  In general people find even order harmonics more pleasant to listen to, is what I have been told.  I think that the new 6SN7 designers want to do what we want them to do, I believe that they fail because they try to make improvements where they figure is available with new technology and/or because its simply better design practice, and thats where they stray away in many cases far away from what they originally set out to do.


----------



## KingStyles

I wish KR audio would make a new production 6sn7. The px4 I have are great and I heard a lot of there tubes are holding there own against nos tubes. I think there probably isnt enough profit margin to be messing with the smaller tubes. It was standard to handmake tubes back in the day but now to do it by hand to get the same quality would put the tube out of reach. Who here would pay $200 - $400 for a matched set of new production 6sn7 tubes that sound great?


----------



## Wedge

I would... I already bought the Shuguang Treasures just to see how they were for myself.


----------



## 9pintube

Quote:


wedge said:


> I agree the NOS do sound better.  I guess I was just wondering what the impressions were on the new productions, I see some people really hate the EH ones, was wondering how people felt about the Tung-Sol ones.  This line of questions is probably semi moot anyways since I just ordered a pair of Tung-Sol Round Plate Black Glass, Sylvania Metal Base, Chelmer ECC32, RCA VT231 Smoke Glass, and Sylvania VT-231, as well as Shuguang Treasures, hehe.  I suppose I have Skylab to thank for my empty bank account as I probably would have never bought any of them if I hadn't been pointed to a good place to buy them.  I ordered a WA-5 and had the Shuguangs on the order already, but since I like NOS more than new production in general I figured why not do a little rolling.  I went with EMLs for the 300Bs though cause I'm just way to afraid to pay for NOS Western Electric 300Bs (upwards of 1-2K per tube is a little nuts for me).  I am still young and don't make that much money.


 
*Wedge*, It sounds like you've made some nice purchases and have started a great collection of the "6SN7" tubes for your WA-5..That's great ! One brand of 300 B tubes that I really liked in my Mid-range Mono Blocks (before I got my Quad set of WE's) were the JJ 300 B tubes..... They were very smooth sounding and I had no problems at all with them for yrs.. Now they are my back up 300B's.......They weren't that much money "NEW"! Also.....I was given the Electro Harmonics,300B's, but the sound and reliability sucked.......  Some advice for you or anyone else who are just now buying TUBES, Don't sell them, ever,unless you need a Kidney!      I wouldn't even think about paying those "STUPID MONEY" prices for the Older Etched WE300B tubes.....I'd look for the ones  made in the 90's or the last batches that came/come in the wooden boxes..... I paid $525.00 for a Quad set "new" back in the day......I've seen them for around $1000/ or higher...... IMO, the next thing you should start hunting for is a nice Tube Caddy...I found mine for $35 bucks..


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





9pintube said:


> Quote:
> *Wedge*, It sounds like you've made some nice purchases and have started a great collection of the "6SN7" tubes for your WA-5..That's great ! One brand of 300 B tubes that I really liked in my Mid-range Mono Blocks (before I got my Quad set of WE's) were the JJ 300 B tubes..... They were very smooth sounding and I had no problems at all with them for yrs.. Now they are my back up 300B's.......They weren't that much money "NEW"! Also.....I was given the Electro Harmonics,300B's, but the sound and reliability sucked.......  Some advice for you or anyone else who are just now buying TUBES, Don't sell them, ever,unless you need a Kidney!      I wouldn't even think about paying those "STUPID MONEY" prices for the Older Etched WE300B tubes.....I'd look for the ones  made in the 90's or the last batches that came/come in the wooden boxes..... I paid $525.00 for a Quad set "new" back in the day......I've seen them for around $1000/ or higher...... IMO, the next thing you should start hunting for is a nice Tube Caddy...I found mine for $35 bucks..


 

 Thank you, 9 Pin Tube.  I am sort of rebuilding my tube collection.  I have lots of friends at work that have old tubes too so I've been able to gleen a few tubes off of them.  I was shocked to find out how much some of these tubes were "apparently worth".  I previously had one of those tube cubes from Tube Depot, which works well enough for me.  I know its not the same as the ones from the old days.  I would love to have a tube tester but, I'm not sure I want to spend the money right now.  Right now I'd like to buy a few more pieces of audio gear.  I would love to see an amplifier which uses both 6SN7s and KT66s or 88s.  I'm considering my next piece of audio equipment for my office at work.  I am thinking either an APEX Pinnacle/Volcano or Woo-Audio WA-22.  I've seen a lot of discussion on here regarding different tubes, I suppose we haven't gotten around to the why the addiction to 6SN7s.
   
  I like the 6SN7s for a number of reasons one of which is I like the construction of them.  Most preamp/drive type tubes are smaller 9 PIN types.  I like to have a solid base.  I think a lot of the 6SN7 have been able to hold up over years because they were built ruggedized for military use (in the days they when they had requirements for ultra long shelf life).  I also think that they sound really great.  I started a project sometime ago to build a tube/MOSFET hybrid amplifier.  I used 6SN7 for the drive tubes.  I was looking at older style TO-3 packaged FETs for the output stage, never finished, got as far as breadboarding the drive stage and the power supply for the tube section.  I got to listen to it, and I really thought it sounded phenomenal, but maybe I'm partial to my own work, someday I'll get around to it.
   
  I thought I would include a picture of the breadboard, hehe.  New production Tung-Sol's in case something went terribly wrong didn't want to waste a perfectly good pair of tubes NOS.  It is actually all beat up now because I had buried it away, some reassembly will be necessary.


----------



## rosgr63

A tube tester is a very valuable tool.
  I have found that the Tungsol re issues have unbalanced sections and show leakage above 1.25 Meg.


----------



## Skylab

It's a travesty that a new production tube would get sold with those problems. I can forgive a little mismatch in 60-70 year old tubes, but not in current production ones.


----------



## rosgr63

Rob you'll be surprised how many re issues show this kind of leakage!
  I was alerted by my trusted tube supplier and it is an issue with some of them.
  Unfortunately many testers based on the Hickok circuit cannot pick it up.
  Old production tubes are not so prone to this kind of leakage.


----------



## Wedge

Most manufacturers these days will allow that to happen and still ship it out since it is not within intended operating range.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I am an electrical engineer by profession and I guess I have some thoughts about developing re-issues of old devices.  It is an art to reverse engineer someone else's work.  The world is programmed in general to believe that if you write a specification, any design that meets the specification will work the same in the same application, but it really just isn't reality.  So you can poke and prod the device, but sometimes you just can't recreate it perfectly.  Also the other challenge is when you say well lets get better distortion characteristics, thats when you start to get to mucking with the "sound" that the particular design had.  With this said I have seen a number of very good technologies die along with those who mastered them and decided that they wanted to keep the competitive edge for themselves.
> 
> Most people that I know believe that people like the sound of tubes better than solid state because of their distortion characteristics.  Tubes generally have more emphasis on second order harmonic as opposed to a BJT which might have more third order content than a tube would.  In general people find even order harmonics more pleasant to listen to, is what I have been told.  I think that the new 6SN7 designers want to do what we want them to do, I believe that they fail because they try to make improvements where they figure is available with new technology and/or because its simply better design practice, and thats where they stray away in many cases far away from what they originally set out to do.


 

 This is a very good point, but I suppose what I was trying to express isn't that they should reverse engineer the old tubes.  Considering changes in materials used and construction that probably isn't even practical.  What I mean is they should use the *sound* of the best NOS tubes as a benchmark when developing their products.  That new NOS tubes sound more "solid state" than NOS ones do probably isn't an accident.  These companies probably see solid state amplification devices as their primary competition and are trying to mimick the low distortion and fast response of that technology in vacuum tubes, all the while losing sight of why people love tubes in the first place.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> This is a very good point, but I suppose what I was trying to express isn't that they should reverse engineer the old tubes.  Considering changes in materials used and construction that probably isn't even practical.  What I mean is they should use the *sound* of the best NOS tubes as a benchmark when developing their products.  That new NOS tubes sound more "solid state" than NOS ones do probably isn't an accident.  These companies probably see solid state amplification devices as their primary competition and are trying to mimick the low distortion and fast response of that technology in vacuum tubes, all the while losing sight of why people love tubes in the first place.


 
   
  Agreed.  Although not impractical to do it the same way as done before, not cost effective, most development in the world has lost sight of the passion for something and go for what will make the most amount of money.  Markets and profits run everything these days.  Guys like Jack Wu or Ray Samuels for example, while I'm sure they aren't homeless, they probably aren't swimming in money either.  They do what they do because they love it, but probably not making as much money as a company who will compromise their quality for an increased market share.  I became an electrical engineer because of Hi-Fi audio gear, so for me its worth it, plus I'm a single guy so I don't have family expenditures.  A good friend of mine and I always talk about starting a a little boutique amplifier company after he retires, just cause it would be lots of fun, and something we love.


----------



## Wedge

Look what came in the mail!
   

   
  I know they aren't the Mullards, but I couldn't find any Mullards, so these will have to do.


----------



## Skylab

Very nice!  I have a pair of those Chelmers - they sound terrific.  Im almost 100% sure they are just rebranded Mullards anyway.


----------



## Wedge

What are everyone's thoughts on Cryo treating tubes?  I bought the Kuhl Tubes, because well the pair they had on Tube World looked better and it was not too much more money.


----------



## KingStyles

I just brought a cryoed ecc35 a couple of weeks ago. I am trying to get a uncryoed one so I can compare them.


----------



## Wedge

Yeah I figured that the Chelmers are just rebranded Mullards.  I was trying to look for the Marconi Osram B65s but 1500 a pair is kind of out of my league at the moment, I feel like my money would be best spent elsewhere like expanding my amp and headphone collection.  I really was never a huge head phone person until recently, I always spent my money on home systems, but I guess I caught the bug.


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice tubes Wedge, well done.
  Most certainly made by Mullard.
  What type of getter do they have?
  Wire type I guess.
  See my other thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts#post_7276197


----------



## Wedge

Tubeworld called it a Platter Getter.  I can say there are 4 rectangular plates.


----------



## rosgr63

I think it might be type 2 Flat Strip getter.
  If you hold the tube against a strong light you maybe able to see the getter.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I think it might be type 2 Flat Strip getter.
> If you hold the tube against a strong light you maybe able to see the getter.


 


   
  You would appear to be right.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the photo.
  The "hole" in the middle indicates that it's a flat strip getter.
  That is three flat strips that form a Π getter.
  Have you tried them yet?


----------



## Wedge

I am still waiting for the amp I bought them for to come in.  I bought a Woo Audio WA-5.  Really I bought the Woo Audio WA-5 because it used 6 SN7s and 300Bs.  I need a new speaker amp because I sold my old one to buy the new amp.  I really didn't realize how fast my amp would sell so I am waiting on the new one to arrive while listening to MX300 headset connected directly to PC, kind of ewww right now.  All my other headphone gear is at work, cause that is where I do most of my listening.
   
  I should have my LCD-2s Tuesday of this coming week.  I just ordered a pair of Edition 10s, as soon as Drew takes my money.  After I get all that paid off, I am going to look at the SLI-80 and a Leben for my collection.  SLI-80 cause I love 6SN7s and I also love KT-88s.  Leben because well they are well thought of an honestly almost bought one over the WA-5 but the dealer I talked to gave me a hard time about ordering over the phone, and wanted me to come in cause he wanted me to buy the 600 and not the 300.  When I buy expensive things I prefer to do the hastling and not be hastled by the person selling, I don't mean to be a hassle but I figure if I'm spending a few grand with you, the least you could do is let me ask my questions.  Although, I guess I just got off topic.


----------



## dminches

Are you dealing with In Living Stereo?


----------



## rosgr63

Nice gear, let us know how the ECC32 sound.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Nice gear, let us know how the ECC32 sound.


 

 Will do.


----------



## Wedge

More Goodies in the mail today.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





wedge said:


> More Goodies in the mail today.


 

 Those Sylvania metal base looks very nice.


----------



## dminches

It looks like Paul sent you some very nice tubes.  Be sure to give us your impressions.


----------



## Skylab

Indeed, all nice tubes, there!


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





dminches said:


> It looks like Paul sent you some very nice tubes.  Be sure to give us your impressions.


 

 Will do, probably be a few weeks because I'm still waiting for the amplifier.


----------



## kchew

Has anyone compared the black glass and clear glass variants of the Brimar CV1988? A lot has been written about the black glass variant with KB/FE factory code but is the clear glass variant with KB/FB factory code any different?


----------



## Wedge

I believe that I read in other posts from Skylab that he has the Black Glass but not the Clear Glass.


----------



## Skylab

Right, I have the black glass and the grey glass, but not the clear glass - never heard those.  But there is a discussion about the clear glass ones in the Woo thread right now that isn't favorable...


----------



## rosgr63

I have both but never done any extensive testing.


----------



## Wedge

I am planning on getting an Apex Peak/Volcano from TTVJ, so I bought another Mullard ECC32 as well as a used Marconi Osram B65, today, haha.


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice Wedge.
  Make sure it can use the ECC32 as it's not an exact 6SN7 equivalent.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Right, I have the black glass and the grey glass, but not the clear glass - never heard those.  But there is a discussion about the clear glass ones in the Woo thread right now that isn't favorable...


 


  Given how I use them my experience might not be much of an indication for others, but yes for what it is worth I don't care for my pair at all.  A fellow member I talk with got some at the same time I did and he likes his quite a bit in his WA6SE, so it is very possible their presentation is just completely at odds with my personal tastes.


----------



## Wedge

Skylab used the loaner and he had the ECC32s in it, so it should be good.  I'm just torn as to what I want to do, none the less I have the tubes anyways.
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Very nice Wedge.
> Make sure it can use the ECC32 as it's not an exact 6SN7 equivalent.


----------



## rosgr63

There are so many different 6SN7s and their equivalents to try, so there is a never ending quest.


----------



## Skylab

Indeed, the Apex Peak can use the ECC32.  I checked with Todd before trying it, and was told it is no problem whatsoever.  And it sounded very good with a real ECC32 in it.


----------



## sachu

i got a couple of gray glass black plates RCA 6SN7s..they any good?


----------



## Skylab

IMHO, yes.  They are super-smooth, not for the detail-freaks, but a very enjoyable tube.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





sachu said:


> i got a couple of gray glass black plates RCA 6SN7s..they any good?


 


  I have two pairs of these.  One with solid grey coating you _cannot _see through which sounds great, super lush with good dynamics and doesn't sacrifice clarity.  One where the coating is semi-transparent and you can see the black plates inside which are smoooooooth (too smooth actually), but are soft sounding and lack detail and bass control.  I don't know if this is a coincidence in my two pairs of if it is typical, but I thought I'd pass it along.


----------



## tunarat

Has anyone tried this STC from Langrex???
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310240902963&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


----------



## Skylab

Looks like the black glass Brimars I have.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> Has anyone tried this STC from Langrex???
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310240902963&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


 


   Be careful with that seller. I bought a pair of Mullard ECC33 tubes and they were not Mullard made they were actually Tungsram. I asked him before buying why they were labeled as 6SN7GT instead of ECC33 and he said it was becuase they were made for the american market. He never discloused they were Tungsram rebranded to Mullard until I start questioning him  after I received them.
   
  Furtunatley he honor his word and I shpped them back for a full refund.


----------



## tunarat

Thanks for the heads-up musicman!


----------



## musicman59

Guys I am selling some of my pairs of 6SN7 and equivalents from my collection. You can see them here:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/545103/driver-tubes-for-sale-6sn7gt-5692-and-cv181z#post_7349388


----------



## Wedge

More Tubes just came, but still waiting for amp... hehe
   
  Chelmer Valve w/D Getter
   

   
  Marconi Osram B65


----------



## lawrywild

Guys I managed to get a used Tung-Sol round plate, black glass. It came as untested, I cleaned it up and it works and sounds good in my DV336SE (no 'hum' either). No cracks in the base or anything. Does that mean it's all good or what? What does a tube test actually tell me?
  I paid only £14 ($23) for it.


----------



## JohnBal

Quote: 





lawrywild said:


> Guys I managed to get a used Tung-Sol round plate, black glass. It came as untested, I cleaned it up and it works and sounds good in my DV336SE (no 'hum' either). No cracks in the base or anything. Does that mean it's all good or what? What does a tube test actually tell me?
> I paid only £14 ($23) for it.


 

 Considering what you paid for one of the most coveted tubes in this class, I'd say it means you should take it and run, laughing to yourself the whole way   A tube test can tell you how strong the tube might be or maybe how much life may be left. But in the end, as long as the tube sounds good, enjoy it. Just because it's untested does not mean it's no good.


----------



## lawrywild

haha thanks, yeah I know I got a very good deal on it. Just happened to browse ebay at the right time and grabbed it. I figured it was probably more to do with life time, but I'll just let it sit there and run it's course. Definitely an improvement over the stock Shuguang rubbish that comes with the DV. Just need to find a good 5998/6080 for the rear tube now that compliments this Tung-Sol.
  
  Quote: 





johnbal said:


> Considering what you paid for one of the most coveted tubes in this class, I'd say it means you should take it and run, laughing to yourself the whole way   A tube test can tell you how strong the tube might be or maybe how much life may be left. But in the end, as long as the tube sounds good, enjoy it. Just because it's untested does not mean it's no good.


----------



## JohnBal

I have the same amp as you have. I however, have not been as lucky finding that type as you have. I do have a '52 Sylvania Bad Boy and really like it. It goes together nicely with my 5998 and Senn HD580's. The best combo I have had in there so far. I have tried other TungSol types (tall glass GTB with both a D getter and round getter) and like them as well. But not as much as the Sylvania. I tell myself not to over spend on this amp, but I can't help myself... Thanks to HeadFi


----------



## rosgr63

Brilliant buy.
  Now look for a GEC or MWT or Osram 6AS7G and you'll have the best combination.
  Be careful with untested tubes in case of shorts or leakages.
  I recommend investing in a simple calibrated tester, best "tube money" ever spent.
  The tester will ensure a tube is safe but the final and best test is your amp.


----------



## Skylab

IMHO, buying tubes on EBay that test OK for shorts and leaks but that test "low" in terms of quality/transconductance/"life" can be a GREAT way to go.  Sure, they may not last forever, but you get to play around with them for silly-cheap prices, like in the example above, which is a great score!


----------



## FrankWong

My favorite was when I had a pair of RCA black plates, I wished there were more quality modern production tubes still. =(


----------



## Wedge

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of the new production 6SN7s that are out there.  I'm still waiting for my new amp, all of my 6SN7s are just sitting around with nothing to do right now.  I will say some of the other tubes like rectifiers and power tubes have some real nice new productions like EAT and EML.  I wish one of those guys would take a crack at the 6SN7, but I guess there is still quite a bit of NOS 6SN7s.  I will be giving the Shuguang Treasures a try at some point when my amp comes in.


----------



## Xcalibur255

My black glass National Union 6SN7GTs arrived, much earlier than expected.  I'm a little scared to put them in the amp though.  I've been very lucky in the past with the condition of the tubes I've received, but one of these is troubling.  Loose base, which in itself isn't really a problem, but I can clearly hear something rattling around inside too like a broken piece of glass.  I've read this may not be a problem, but my fear is if it happened in shipping the tube may not be functioning now and a short could cost me the internals of the amp.  Times like this remind me that it is time I invested in a tube tester.  I think I'll plug them in and take the risk, so wish me luck!


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> My black glass National Union 6SN7GTs arrived, much earlier than expected.  I'm a little scared to put them in the amp though.  I've been very lucky in the past with the condition of the tubes I've received, but one of these is troubling.  Loose base, which in itself isn't really a problem, but I can clearly hear something rattling around inside too like a broken piece of glass.  I've read this may not be a problem, but my fear is if it happened in shipping the tube may not be functioning now and a short could cost me the internals of the amp.  Times like this remind me that it is time I invested in a tube tester.  I think I'll plug them in and take the risk, so wish me luck!


 
  Luck.  I have seen glass more commonly in the larger tubes and as you mention, a loose base is easy to fix. It is always nice to have tested tubes. Did they do this for you before sending them? I guess no mention was made of the loose glass or base.


----------



## Xcalibur255

No, no mention of the loose base or the glass inside the tube.  They were advertised as a tested and matched pair, but this is the first time I have used this seller.  One tube is used and one new as well, judging by the getter spotting present on the top of only one of them.  The new tube is the one with both issues.  Amusingly enough upon closer inspection they are not even the same glass size, with the problem tube being a medium bottle and the other a short bottle.  I didn't even know the NU tubes came in midsize bottles.  Good news is they do work, no noise or other issues though I'm detecting a bit of tonal imbalance in the left vs. right channel that I'm hoping I can attritute to one tube not being burned in.  I do feel I've had pretty good luck with tubes in general, but I tend to pick my sellers cautiously as well so some of it is self-made luck.  The price on these was very enticing and considering how rare they are now I bought them on a whim.  Considering the tubes are working correctly the price seems more than fair still despite the issues.  I only listened for 5 minutes bofore leaving them to burn-in for a bit, but in that short time I already understand why Regal and some other uses like these so much.  Very unique midrange on this tube, pleasant and inviting.


----------



## rosgr63

Glass sometimes breaks off during manufacture and does not affect the tube performance.
  A loose base can easily be fixed provided there isn't excessive movement.
  Cathode boil off could happen during testing a new tube before it left the factory.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Glass sometimes breaks off during manufacture and does not affect the tube performance.
> A loose base can easily be fixed provided there isn't excessive movement.
> Cathode boil off could happen during testing a new tube before it left the factory.


 

 These are things I do know about tubes in general actually.  Since they shipped from overseas my worry was that it happened during shipment because I can't re-test them on arrival, but since they are working all is fine.  The spotting isn't the type you describe though.  I've seen this on many 6SN7 tubes, over a period of several hundred hours getter patches about the size of a nail head appear directly above the filaments on the top of the tube.  I know it cannot be taken as a hard and fast rule, but generally when I see this on side getter tubes I assume the tube has been run before.  They test strongly and were not advertised as NOS so I don't feel there is any problem, I just feel the seller should disclose details like one tube having hours on it and the other not.  Then again with new hobbyists having unrealistic expectations about what kind of condition they can get these antiques in I can understand why people don't want to advertise things like that too.
   
  They sound nice too.  There is definitely some sacrifice of low level detail to attain the sense of smoothness and liquidity, but the compromise isn't too bad.  These have the most beautiful midrange of any tube I've personally heard.  When I think of the term "lush" this is the sound I think of.  Relaxed, mellow, and very liquid sounding.  Surprisingly enough they can be fairly dynamic when called upon to do so, more than I was expecting given the overall character of the sound.  The biggest surprise is the soundstage, which is simply huge.  I don't see these suiting some genres well, but music with lots of ambiance or background instrumentation present a massive holographic stereo image that is very immersive.
   
  On the flipside the signal control at both ends of the spectrum isn't the best.  They struggle to mantain note separation in the treble range, with cymbals running together rather than remaining distinct from note to note.  The bass is on the tubby side and poorly controlled in general.  No snap.  Not for detail freaks, but definitely a relaxing listen.


----------



## tunarat

Hey Skylab, being the resident tube guru, had a question for you. Do you know if ALL the National Union black glass, white label, black base VT229's with oval plates are Tung Sol's? Thanks, and oh yeah, get off this damn forum and enjoy your vacation


----------



## Skylab

Actually I do not believe that ANY National Union black glass 6N7's are Tung-Sol. The two pairs I have for sure are not, and neither are any I have seen. NU made their own, and they are different. Good, but different.


----------



## tunarat

Thanks, I know Jessee used to have NU branded Tung Sol 6SL7' s and saw one on ebay I thought might be. Oh well, it was cheap enough to add to the collection in any event.


----------



## Wedge

I wish I had some more money lol, I want to buy more Mullards.


----------



## jamato8

I still like the 52 and 53 Sylvania 6SN7's a little more than the Tung-sol black glass round plate. The TS are one of my favorite but I find the sound a little more transparent with the Sylvania.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> I still like the 52 and 53 Sylvania 6SN7's a little more than the Tung-sol black glass round plate. The TS are one of my favorite but I find the sound a little more transparent with the Sylvania.


 


  If you have or can find a picture of the Sylvanias please post it.


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





dminches said:


> If you have or can find a picture of the Sylvanias please post it.


 
  I don't have any but there are many on the web. Yes, there are two versions. One has 3 holes and shiny mica and the other has dull mica. The shiny mica is the version that most want. I like either. I also have around 16 NOS 6SL7's from the same period (I got them in a junk yard where a local university had experimented with tubes back in the 50's and 60's). I like the 6SL7's as well. They are both in nice green boxes. I think there were 14 of the 6SN7's. Nice catch for 5 dollars each. This was some years back now but at the same time I got a couple of 4 support rod 27 tubes with mesh plate, very rare and very nice though for the period I still prefer the Sylvania from 1929 to 1932, of which I also have NOS for my preamp I built.


----------



## Xcalibur255

My Sylvania are '51 but they are also 3-hole plate with shiny mica.  Beautiful sounding tubes with the best treble presentation of any tube I have personally heard.  Tonally I prefer them to the round plate Tung Sol as well, as well as their incredible sense of air and space.  What I find myself missing, however, is the sense of depth and layering and the way the Tung Sol images.  The Slyvanias are very clear, airy and throw a wide sounstage, but they lack the sense of three dimensional space that makes the Tung Sol so immersive.  The EML rectifiers really draw this quality out of the Tung Sols too.  I'm finding my recently acquired National Unions also have this quality when I paired them up with the EML 274B, not quite the same but it draws me into the music almost as deeply.  In fact my opinion of the NU tubes has improved all around after hearing them on the EML, with only a dry vocal presentation to mar what is otherwise a great pairing.  I liked their midrange better using the Brimar 5R4GY though, just hauntingly beautiful.  There was a sense of effortlessness and liquidity to vocals that the EML sadly takes away, but from a detail and resolution perspective the NU's improve dramatically with the help of the EML.
   
  Hopefully nobody minds my ramblings in this thread.  I find I just really enjoy talking about the sound of tubes.  The Woo owners are probably tired of my posts by now.


----------



## jamato8

Yes, you are right, the Tung Sol has an exceptional way of giving depth and separation. It has been speculated that it is the round plates,as the electron flow is better. Might be that, seems reasonable but I don't know for sure. They were made in a round plate because they were started on 6SL7 tooling, which used round plates. Too bad they didn't keep going that way but then switched to the flat or T plates.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Hopefully nobody minds my ramblings in this thread.  I find I just really enjoy talking about the sound of tubes.  The Woo owners are probably tired of my posts by now.


 

 I hang out in the Woo forum just to hear the tube talk.
   
  If you could post a picture of your Sylvanias I would appreciate it.  There are so many varieties of Sylvania 6SN7s that it is hard to keep them straight.  I have a number of varieties but i am not sure they match the ones you have.


----------



## dminches

Like these?
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1306680959&/Pair-Sylvania-6sn7-GT-very-low
   
  Or are we talking about vt-231s?


----------



## rosgr63

Another tube worth trying:


----------



## musicman59

You are right but they are very difficult to find. I havce been looking for a pair for long time with no luck.


----------



## rosgr63

Don't be greedy, look for one at a time!


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Don't be greedy, look for one at a time!


 


  Does your comment imply that the concept of "matched pairs" is a marketing term and not something we should necessarily look for when shopping for tubes?


----------



## rosgr63

dminches, what is a matched pair?
  Could you explain it to me please?


----------



## Wedge

It really depends on the design of the circuit.  If the design is implemented such that the tube is not up against any of its specced limits under every normal condition, with considerable margin (something like maybe 100%) then I would say that you probably don't need a matched pair.  This is kind of the reason many, but not all tube amps do not even require biasing, a fixed bias resistor is sufficient.  I don't think I have seen any super fancy auto biasing circuits implemented.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> dminches, what is a matched pair?
> Could you explain it to me please?


 

 The question is better posed to all the tubes sellers out there who are selling "matched pairs".  Look on audiogon and search for the term.  The results will fill up your screen.
   
  My question about buying one tube was effectively that - what is a matched pair and is that just marketing?


----------



## dminches

Case in point:
   

 *[size=smaller]Classifieds[/size]* *[size=smaller]Category[/size]* *[size=smaller]Asking[/size]* Rca 5814a / 12au7 / ECC82 matched pair black plate 3-mica in boxes [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $109.00 Sylvania Nos 6sn7 gtb coin base platinum matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $95.00 GE 5687WB Mil-spec Tubes- matched pair, nos, nib [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $75.00 RCA 6SN7GT Tubes - Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $80.00 Raytheon 6sn7wgt mil-spec Tubes - matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $140.00 Sylvania 6l6g Vt-115a Mil-spec tubes - matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $140.00 CBS Hytron 12BH7A Tubes - Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $120.00 Mullard 2A3 2 matched pair direct heated triodes quad [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $400.00 Sylvania Gold Brand GB 5751 12ax7 gold pin nos matched pair 3 mica [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $219.00 Sylvania Gold Brand GB 5751 12ax7 nos matched pair 3 mica [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold 6FQ7 RCA clear top matched pair 6CG7 [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold 1957 Amperex Bugleboy NOS inbox Longplate high test matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $525.00 Brimar 12AX7 Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold Matched Pair Nos tung-sol 6f8g/vt99 military tubes/tungsol 6sn7gt [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $300.00 1963 Mullard 12ax7 High Gain Matched pair test nos [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $200.00 Raytheon 12au7 Black Longplates nice matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $20.00 Rca Vt-229 6sl7gt mil-spec tubes - matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $100.00 Tung-Sol 12BH7 Tubes - Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold National Union vt-229 6sl7gt tubes - matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $130.00 Tung-Sol 5U4GB Rectifier tubes-matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold Nos 1961 Amperex Bugl boy 12ax7 high gain matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $335.00 Amperex Pq 6922 Orange Label gold pin matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold RCA 5U4G coke bottle Matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $50.00 GE 6sl7 matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $55.00 RCA 807 matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $45.00 Telefunken 12AX7 ecc83 buy 3 tubes or matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $150.00 KR Audio 300B tubes, brand new factory matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $814.00 KR Audio 2A3 tubes brand new factory matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $728.00 Jj Electronics 2A3-40 tubes brand new factory matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $248.49 JJ electronics 2A3-40 tubes brand new factory matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $248.49 JJ electronics 300B tubes brand new factory matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $238.49 Genelax Gold Lion PX300B 300B tubes, brand new matched pair ! [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $399.99 Electro harmonix 2A3 Gold Grid tubes brand new factory matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $124.98 Amperex Holland 12AU7 / ECC82 matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold Mullard Xf2 Matched pair el34/6ca7 xf2 bva u 1960s vintage [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $250.00 RCA 12au7 12au7a clear top matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $50.00 RCA 12AT7 matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $50.00 GE 12bh7 matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $45.00 Amperex Holland ecc83 12ax7 truly matched pair test nos [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold Tung Sol 5687 Black Plate Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $80.00 Ge 6sn7gta 1955 vacuum tubes matched pair ultra quiet [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $60.00 Sylvania 6sn7gtb vacuum tubes matched pair ultra quiet [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $50.00 Raytheon Vt231 6sn7 flat plates nos matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $144.00 Sylvania 6sn7gta TALL vacuum tubes matched pair ultra quiet [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $100.00 Raytheon 6sn7gt 1950's Tubes -Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold 1958 Valvo 12AX7 NOS Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $225.00 RCA 2A3 NOS Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $285.00 Genalex Gold Lion KT88 Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold Philips Holland pcc88 / 7dj8 /ecc88 nos nib matched pair audiotube [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $59.95 Tung Sol 6sn7 gtb tubes - matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $60.00 Valvo 12AX7 1959 Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $125.00 Tungsram 12AX7 NOS Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $110.00 Philips 12AX7 1958 Mini Watt Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $185.00 Rca 5842 471A tubes - matched pair, nos, nib [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] Sold Valvo 12AX7 NOS Matched Pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $95.00 KR PX-25 Matched Pair  [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $500.00 Mesa str 418 6550-A matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $45.00 Matched Pair Nos 5687 tung-sol same date code early tungsol audio note [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $160.00 GE 5751/12AX7 triple Mica NOS matched pair [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $129.00 Matsushita 6dj8/ecc88/6922 matched pair nos [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $60.00 Super Matched Pair Sq NOS mullard e88cc/ 6922 gold pin tubes 6dj8 [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $200.00 Matched Pair Bendix Jan-Cea-2c51 tubes western electric 396a rare [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $180.00 Amperex Holland 12ax7 ecc83 NOS from 1962, 100% matched pair! [size=smaller]Tubes[/size] $200.00 McIntosh MC1000 matched pair [size=smaller]Amp-Solid[/size] $8000.00 Nestorovic Labs Na1 MONO matched pair [size=smaller]Amp-Tube[/size] $4000.00 Ps Audio Ultimate Lab power cables matched pair [size=smaller]Power-Cable[/size] $1200.00 RAAL Lazy Ribbon Matched Pair [size=smaller]Spkr-Plan[/size] $900.00


----------



## rosgr63

dminches I am not a tube seller so you are asking the wrong person, I am afraid.
   
  musicman69 the same factory which made the TFK 6SN7GTA also made it for others under a different brand name.
  This is a theory I was presented with today.
   
  I have ordered a pair of the rebrands and should be able to compare them with the originals to see if the theory has any ground.


----------



## Skylab

wedge said:


> It really depends on the design of the circuit.  If the design is implemented such that the tube is not up against any of its specced limits under every normal condition, with considerable margin (something like maybe 100%) then I would say that you probably don't need a matched pair.  This is kind of the reason many, but not all tube amps do not even require biasing, a fixed bias resistor is sufficient.  I don't think I have seen any super fancy auto biasing circuits implemented.




Right - whether a matched pair (or quad in some cases) is needed depends on the amp and circuit. All things being equal, matched is better. Matched means that the transconductance is matched. Note that this means that unless you have a true mutual conductance tube tester, you cannot ascertain whether the tubes are matched or not.

Some amps do have some pretty fancy auto bias circuits, but I have not seen this it a headphone amp.


----------



## rosgr63

skylab a matched pair must have similar curves.
  Matched transconductances are only point values and don't say the whole story.
  For a matched pair the supplier should provide the curves which must be identical or very close.


----------



## jamato8

Not too many suppliers do that now or even know how or have the equipment or care. Mike of Quicksilver would do curves but he knows his stuff. I am not sure if Jim McShane does but he does burn the tubes in at working voltage and matches them by current draw and a few other parameters.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah I agree. I don't think in general when you buy a "matched pair" these days you're getting anything more than transconductance, and many EBay sellers will sell tubes as a matched pair when all they have is close numbers on an emissions only tester!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I hang out in the Woo forum just to hear the tube talk.
> 
> If you could post a picture of your Sylvanias I would appreciate it.  There are so many varieties of Sylvania 6SN7s that it is hard to keep them straight.  I have a number of varieties but i am not sure they match the ones you have.


 
  These are mine.  I've always worked under the assumption they are true "Bad Boy" Sylvanias but there is so much conflicting information it is hard to confirm.  They match the descriptions given in the reference 6SN7 thread perfectly with one exception:  they have a 1951 date code instead of 1952, which I personally think is a myth.  Why would a company operate a tooling line for exactly one year?  Seems like a deflection to make the other years easier to find/buy or a tactic to inflate prices of a large stockpile that somebody pulled a long time ago if you ask me.


----------



## Wedge

I love the Mullard ECC32s, but I hate the price.  I put the Mullards in my WA-22, cause the TSRPs, I have were a little noisy for the setup.  Man what a beautiful sound they have.  They gave the WA-22 just the right amount of bass.  I was listening to Eric Clapton Wonderful Tonight from One More Car, One More Rider, and at the last 2 minutes of the song, was just an instrumental, but it was so mesmerizing.  Love it, reminded me why we do all this, and spend all this money.  I want to buy another pair for my WA-5 again, which is where I originally had them, but I find the amp sounds great with the TSRPs, but I think the ECC32s are much better.  I feel like the TSRP are more airy than the Mullard's, but those same two minutes, the sound of the sax and guitar give me a feeling like the player had some incredible passion.  I don't even have words to describe it right.  I'm definitely an ECC32 addict now!


----------



## vinyllp33

Wedge, 
   
  How do you find the larger bottle shape of the ECC32 works with your WA5, my experience with this type of tube is that they almost touch the 300B's though I know Jack says that should not a problem? 
   
  I think you will find with the other stock tubes in the WA5 using the Mullards are indeed a better match than the the TSRP, however sillysally really nailed the interaction of the synergy of the TSRP when used with the WE 300B and EML 5U4G. 
   
  I find in this set-up the Mullard sound can be a bit too euphonic, but as we all know there are so many variables involved when comparing ones system and hearing perception. 
   
  But no doubt the ECC32s are a very special tube hence the scarcity and steep price.
   
  Please keep us posted on your tube-rolling progress with both of your Woo amps. 
   
  Cheers!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yeah I agree. I don't think in general when you buy a "matched pair" these days you're getting anything more than transconductance, and many EBay sellers will sell tubes as a matched pair when all they have is close numbers on an emissions only tester!


 
  I hate to say it but the "matched pair" readings you get form a callibrated emissions tester are as good as the ones from a transconductance tester. 
 Neither can tell you if a pair is matched.
  It's just another seller's tool.
  Low reading tubes can last a long time and sound great, provided they are safe no shorts or leaks.
  Also there is no such thing as gas measurment, how can you measure gas?
  skylab, I have learned a lot since my first tube tester the wonderful B&K 606 you recommended sometime ago, thanks.


----------



## Xcalibur255

There are some whisperings on the Grant Fidelity forum that Shuguang is releasing a 6SN7-T series under their new Psvane line that is supposedly an improvement over the CV-181Z Treasure.  Apparently they are only shipping as stock tubes on a new Shuguang amplifier design right now but will be sold on their own down the road.  Should be interesting.  Honestly I want to see somebody release a new production tube that captures the essence of the best Tung Sol and Sylvania NOS tubes rather than leaning towards a modern solid state sound like the Treasures seem to.  This probably won't do it, but a guy can always hope.  They might be good in their own right though.
   
  Hunting for NOS tubes is frustrating and the prices are going up faster than the price of gas.  When I bought my round plate tung sols about 6 months ago most sellers were listing them for around $399-$449 in buy it now auctions.  Right now the only listings are around $599, with auctions for rough condition pairs going that high too.  A 50% spike in prices in 6 months is simply absurd.  New tube makers have got to be looking at this and seeing an opportunity to tap into this market of buyers one would think.  It doesn't have to look like the round plate tung sol, it just needs to sound like it and people will line up to buy them.


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> There are some whisperings on the Grant Fidelity forum that Shuguang is releasing a 6SN7-T series under their new Psvane line that is supposedly an improvement over the CV-181Z Treasure.  Apparently they are only shipping as stock tubes on a new Shuguang amplifier design right now but will be sold on their own down the road.  Should be interesting.  Honestly I want to see somebody release a new production tube that captures the essence of the best Tung Sol and Sylvania NOS tubes rather than leaning towards a modern solid state sound like the Treasures seem to.  This probably won't do it, but a guy can always hope.  They might be good in their own right though.
> 
> Hunting for NOS tubes is frustrating and the prices are going up faster than the price of gas.  When I bought my round plate tung sols about 6 months ago most sellers were listing them for around $399-$449 in buy it now auctions.  Right now the only listings are around $599, with auctions for rough condition pairs going that high too.  A 50% spike in prices in 6 months is simply absurd.  New tube makers have got to be looking at this and seeing an opportunity to tap into this market of buyers one would think.  It doesn't have to look like the round plate tung sol, it just needs to sound like it and people will line up to buy them.


 
   
   
  I hope it's better. The treasure is the biggest waste of $65 I've ever spent. I've got $10- $20 GE's and Sylvanias that smoke that pos. I agree 100% it is frustrating filtering through the NOS stuff, but I think Skylab mentioned before that there are great deals to be had still for valves that measure good to fair. For sure though, prices on quality NOS tubes are getting out of hand.


----------



## jamato8

The 6SN7 was one of the most commonly used tubes and produced in great quantities. There are still many around in NOS. I used to get them off of ebay, junk shops and other places but many have been bought up by tube sellers so the bargains aren't out there like they used to be but there are good tubes for 20 dollars or so.


----------



## Wedge

Well I won't be buying WE 300Bs because well I just refuse to pay the kind of money people are asking for.  But I will see how how the TSRPs sound with EMLs.  I didn't see a problem with the fit of the ECC32s in the WA-5, sure it was tight but I thought it was fine.  Right now the Mullards are hanging out with Tung-Sol 7236's and an RCA 5U4G, a friend at work gave to me, in the WA-22.  I tried the amp and Mullards with the Tung-Sol 5998s but the sound was real muddy, I think I have bad 5998s, but they tested good.  Anyways the WA-22 with that tube setup, sounds fantastic at least in my opinion.  My friend (he is a maggie guy) at work gave a good listen to and was floored by the performance with the LCD-2, his comment was I think you can't get better, just different.  So the WA-22 is going to stay the way it is for now.  I really won't change my WA-5 anymore, until the EMLs get in.


----------



## dminches

I have been really enjoying Mullard ECC35s in my Cary phono pre, designed for 6SL7s.  What do people feel about the Mullard ECC33s for 6SN7 application?  Are they equally enjoyable?  Has anyone compared them to TS BGRPs or other top 6SN7s?


----------



## Skylab

You can get nice NOS RCA, GE, and Sylvania 6SN7GTB's for very cheap even still.  You all should go buy 5-10 of them right now, while you still can get them cheap.  Trust me on this - 3 years from now, you will be thanking me when even those are selling for $50-100 each.


----------



## JohnBal

Regarding the Sylvania Bad Boy, I remember reading somewhere, and I can't remember where for the life of me, but it said that they were made from approximately the last quarter of 1951 to approximately the first quarter of 1953. That would explain why the same build is seen in those years as well. I have seen pictures of '51 and '53 tubes that do look identical to the '52 bad boys. Maybe that's right. I'm no expert so please don't shoot me if you know differently. I know this is always a touchy subject.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> You can get nice NOS RCA, GE, and Sylvania 6SN7GTB's for very cheap even still.  You all should go buy 5-10 of them right now, while you still can get them cheap.  Trust me on this - 3 years from now, you will be thanking me when even those are selling for $50-100 each.


 


  This is a good point, but it is hard to go back to these tubes after hearing the better 40's and 50's era tubes.  They sound so flat and two dimensional in comparison in presentation, at least to my ears.  That, and the tonal balance steadily leans towards brighter the newer the vintage which is also bad in my case.  This is why I have a softspot for the mouse ear Tung Sol, because it seems to sit on the divide between the early era VT-231 tubes with the beautiful romantic sound and the GTB era tubes which are more straight forward and solid state sounding.  Plus, they are not being over valued much yet.
   
  The RCA 6SN7GTB silver label was the first 6SN7 type tube I tried.  After moving on to nicer tubes I tried them once again and my reaction was "bleh" to the point where I no longer have those tubes now.


----------



## Wedge

You kind of have to ask yourself if you could go from your tubes now to the new prods.  Eventually it will come to that, unless you have something in your stock pile.
  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Xcalibur255* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> This is a good point, but it is hard to go back to these tubes after hearing the better 40's and 50's era tubes.  They sound so flat and two dimensional in comparison in presentation, at least to my ears.  That, and the tonal balance steadily leans towards brighter the newer the vintage which is also bad in my case.  This is why I have a softspot for the mouse ear Tung Sol, because it seems to sit on the divide between the early era VT-231 tubes with the beautiful romantic sound and the GTB era tubes which are more straight forward and solid state sounding.  Plus, they are not being over valued much yet.
> 
> The RCA 6SN7GTB silver label was the first 6SN7 type tube I tried.  After moving on to nicer tubes I tried them once again and my reaction was "bleh" to the point where I no longer have those tubes now.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah that was my point. My stash of all NOS 6SN7 types is pretty large, but it includes a dozen Sylvania 6SN7WGTs which you can still get for about $30-40 each NOS (I got mine for $25 each a couple years ago), and about a dozen Sylvania 6SN7GTBs which are my backup stash. The Sylvania GTBs sound better than any new production 6SN7 type I have heard with the possible exception of the Shuggies, which were maybe a little better but WAY more expensive.


----------



## Wedge

Someday the shuggies will be the NOS standard.


----------



## Xcalibur255

You may be right, if you take the 'O' part out at least.    I think there is some hope that new prod tubes will adapt to meet demand from consumers like us, but it may take NOS tube supplies becoming genuinely rare to bring the change about.  The Psvane tubes from Shuguang have gotten good press, so the possibility is at least there I think.
   
  It has been a hard balancing act for me personally since I'm not as affluent as many of the folks who are usually in this hobby.  I'd like to get a backup pair of a couple of favorites, but each time I make a tube purchase it delays my ability to do the amp upgrade I've been planning.  But the fear of the prices turning my favorite tubes into unobtanium a couple of years from now makes it hard to decide where to stick the money.  I'm already considering buying my 5998 tubes long before I actually own my WA22, simply because the prices on those tubes has been skyrocketing against shrinking supply.


----------



## Wedge

A little off topic, but I'm done with 5998s, bought a bad set of em, and just too hard to find good ones.  I'll stick with Tung-Sol 7236 in my WA-22, sound great with ECC32.


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> This is a good point, but it is hard to go back to these tubes after hearing the better 40's and 50's era tubes.  They sound so flat and two dimensional in comparison in presentation, at least to my ears.  That, and the tonal balance steadily leans towards brighter the newer the vintage which is also bad in my case.  This is why I have a softspot for the mouse ear Tung Sol, because it seems to sit on the divide between the early era VT-231 tubes with the beautiful romantic sound and the GTB era tubes which are more straight forward and solid state sounding.  Plus, they are not being over valued much yet.
> 
> The RCA 6SN7GTB silver label was the first 6SN7 type tube I tried.  After moving on to nicer tubes I tried them once again and my reaction was "bleh" to the point where I no longer have those tubes now.


 
   
  The RCA GTB is not one of the better ones. The earlier GTA's by GE and Sylvania (and GT's) are much, much better. Those are more difficult to find in the bargain 10 to 20 dollar range that test very strong, although it does still occur, in fact it happened tonite.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  But yes, The metal 40'sl Syl along with the OLD mullard or phillips ECC 35 in my weird amp sounds the best, but the $10 GE GTA holds it's own on some stuff. It is by no means flat and 2 dimensional in the Almarro 318B


----------



## Xcalibur255

The tubes you are talking about fall on the "good" side of what I was talking about, in my defense.  I shouldn't generalize, I know, but I was basically saying the late GTB tubes from the later 60's onward were the ones that aren't special at all and they are usually all that is still cheap.  When it comes to tubes I seem to have caviar tastes on a champagne diet.  It just saddens me to know that if something happens to my round plate tung sols I will simply have to live without getting to hear that sound again.  I went "all out" buying them the first time and can't do it again, especially not given the price climb.


----------



## rosgr63

I am sure you'll like any of these:


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The tubes you are talking about fall on the "good" side of what I was talking about, in my defense.  I shouldn't generalize, I know, but I was basically saying the late GTB tubes from the later 60's onward were the ones that aren't special at all and they are usually all that is still cheap.  When it comes to tubes I seem to have caviar tastes on a champagne diet.  It just saddens me to know that if something happens to my round plate tung sols I will simply have to live without getting to hear that sound again.  I went "all out" buying them the first time and can't do it again, especially not given the price climb.


 
   
  Agreed, I feel the same way about the metal base Syl 6SN7W from the 40's and the 1578's. Fortunately, I'm set on those. You can't have too many old tubes though.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Coincidentally I just won a pair of Sylvania 6SN7W chrome domes.  These are black base w/ green print.  I believe this is the other sought after Sylvania aside from the side getter Bad Boy and the metal bases, so I'm looking forward to hearing it.


----------



## Blackmore

Luckily, thanks to rosgr63, I tried 2 types of them, tall and short bottle, correct me if I am wrong, and both were very close to each other sonically. Would be interesting to read your impressions.
   

  
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Coincidentally I just won a pair of Sylvania 6SN7W chrome domes.  These are black base w/ green print.  I believe this is the other sought after Sylvania aside from the side getter Bad Boy and the metal bases, so I'm looking forward to hearing it.


----------



## LugBug1

Maybe a little off subject but I'm new to tubes. My new cheap hybrid amp has a 6n2-J tube fitted as standard, are they any good? I want to get spares and start rolling and so what else can I use without causing damage to my amp.
   
  Any suggestions would be appreciated to get me rolling..!


----------



## Skylab

The 6N2P is the same as the 12AX7, which means you have zillions of choices, although many are pricey.  But I have never heard of the 6N2-J.  I assume that's some off Chinese tube designation.  What exactly is the amp?


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The 6N2P is the same as the 12AX7, which means you have zillions of choices, although many are pricey.  But I have never heard of the 6N2-J.  I assume that's some off Chinese tube designation.  What exactly is the amp?


 


 It's the Mistral HP509 made in china.. not much info anywhere to be fair.. I may be making an error reading the tube info I dont want to remove it. 
   
  At least that means I have plenty of options! thanks


----------



## Wedge

The 6N2P and the 6N2J may be to different tubes.  6N2J could be just a chinese tube too, I saw a 6N2 from Shuguang and its similar specs to 6N2P, but I couldn't find a 6N2J datasheet to compare.


----------



## musicman59

Anybody has experience with Toshiba 6SN7GTB?
  I am looking for some information regarding their sound signature.
  Thanks.


----------



## musicman59

I lost one of my Tung-sol 6SN7GT BGRP Saturday evening. The left channel went out and I freak out because I thought It could de my EML 300B for that channel. After swapping rectifiers and power tubes getting the same results I replaced the drivers and everything went back to normal.
  The good thing is that I scored and pair of Mullard ECC32 last night in a great price. I will start looking for a TS BGRP round mice to the RIP one soon.


----------



## rosgr63

What were the test data when you bought the TS 6SN7 BGRPs?
  The ECC32 are great tubes, best of the best.
  And what a better seller to buy them from!
  Well done.


----------



## musicman59

The readings were 80/81 in the one that die and 83/83 in the other one.
  I bought them from a reputable tube seller.


----------



## rosgr63

Jose, out of curiosity what tester did he use, is it calibrated?
  Whats the min acceptable for that tube on that tester?
  Did he carry out a Life Test?
   
  I am only asking as kingstyles had a similar tube die on him fast.


----------



## Wedge

I'm curious where you got the ECC32 for a good price, would you be willing to divulge?


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





wedge said:


> I'm curious where you got the ECC32 for a good price, would you be willing to divulge?


 


   Skylab was selling a pair in the FS forum and I jumped on them.
  I alread have a pair but I like them so much that I want to have a back up pair.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Jose, out of curiosity what tester did he use, is it calibrated?
> Whats the min acceptable for that tube on that tester?
> Did he carry out a Life Test?
> 
> I am only asking as kingstyles had a similar tube die on him fast.


 


   I don't have that information but they came for a reputable store. I will send you a PM.


----------



## LugBug1

Quote: 





wedge said:


> The 6N2P and the 6N2J may be to different tubes.  6N2J could be just a chinese tube too, I saw a 6N2 from Shuguang and its similar specs to 6N2P, but I couldn't find a 6N2J datasheet to compare.


 


 Thanks. Ive had a good look and it is definately 6N2 + J and there is chinese writing too. Will this mean that I could replace it with say any 6N2P? or any 12AX7 that Sylab pointed out?


----------



## treal512

Hey folks, just getting into tubes here and I have been going/skimming over a lot of resources (here, the reference 6SN7 thread, audiotubes.com, tubeseller.com and audiogon) but I'm still fairly clueless when it comes to this stuff because of my lack of experience and validation. Lots of stuff out there and I am just starting to finally see how broad the spectrum of choices is.
   
  Right now I have my eye on some 6SN7WGT for my Yaqin CD3 tube buffer in my STAX 3030 Classic setup, but there are a ton of these! A few questions for the time being (sorry if they have been answered in here, but there are a lot of pages)...
   
  1) What is the difference between, say, brown base Raytheon 6SN7WGT and black base Raytheon 6SN7GT?
   
  2) On tube tests, what would numbers like this signify or indicate? Out of what sort of scale?
   
  [size=small]New Gm :2600/2600[/size]
  [size=small]Results  [/size]
  [size=small]Gm : 2800/2800  2600/2600[/size]
   
  [size=small]3) I have heard the [/size]Sylvania 6SN7W start to lose their magic after a certain length of time has been reached on them.. is this the case for most tubes or just these in general? Do most tubes fade off as they age or do they just pop and die?
   
  I'm looking to maybe get 2 sets of tubes to play with and replace my cheap Chinese tubes that come with the Yaqin CD3, but no more than that for now. I am returning to college full-time next semester and my budget will be TIGHT. So I need to go for the best bag for my buck/sound quality in the first few tries. Thanks!


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





lugbug1 said:


> Thanks. Ive had a good look and it is definately 6N2 + J and there is chinese writing too. Will this mean that I could replace it with say any 6N2P? or any 12AX7 that Sylab pointed out?


 
   
  Without know what a 6N2J really is, not sure you can replace it with 6N2P or 12AX7.
  
  Quote: 





treal512 said:


> (Snip)
> 
> 1) What is the difference between, say, brown base Raytheon 6SN7WGT and black base Raytheon 6SN7GT?
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Nice explanation Wedge.
   
  GM scores on their own mean very little.
  You can have a high scoring tube that is noisy or even with shorts/leakages.
  Shorts/leakages tests, emission and life tests are essential info for evaluating a tube.
   
  Usually with double section tubes like the 6SN7 one section goes first and then the other.
   
  There are some tubes that have no shorts/leakages with poor scores and life tests but they sound great and last a long time.


----------



## treal512

Thanks for the answers guys. So how do you know if something on eBay is worth it? Seems like the wild west out there if they don't indicate many factors that would show the tubes potential, etc. Do you base it off pictures, the seller or luck? I don't really want to gamble with eBay if it is risky considering my limited position and budget... What would you all recommend? A site like tubeworld, audiotubes or tubeseller?


----------



## Wedge

It all depends, I buy from ebay, but I have my friend with a tester test the tube, I buy from sellers and websites as well.  Audiogon has good tube sellers.


----------



## dminches

If you buy from an online store you will most likely be able to return the tube if it is defective, although defective tubes from online stores are not a common situation. However, you will pay for that ability in the price. On ebay, you have a better chance of getting a bad tube (still a small probability) and it may be more difficult to get your money back, but you should still be able to. Normally you won't get bargains from the online sellers. You can get very lucky on ebay.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





wedge said:


> It all depends, I buy from ebay, but I have my friend with a tester test the tube, I buy from sellers and websites as well.  Audiogon has good tube sellers.


 

 Agreed.  If you buy a lot of tubes you need to have a tester.


----------



## Wedge

BTW dminches, I ended up ordering a Leben for my collection of amps, LOL.


----------



## dminches

Very nice. That is a great sounding amp, with speakers and headphones.


----------



## Skylab

treal512, my personal opinion is that the brown-base Raytheon 6SN7WGT is better sounding than most Raytheon 6SN7GT.  There are quite a few variants even within the brand and type - not all Raytheon 6SN7GT's are even the same.  But the brown base, black plate Raytheon 6SN7WGT is a VERY nice tube, IMO.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I just received a pair of Raytheon VT-231 black base with the ladder plates and extra support rods.  I've literally only listened for 10 minutes so I'll hold off on real impressions, but I like what I'm hearing so far.  They have great drive, with excellent bass and slightly forward sounding midrange.  Tone is a bit dry, but still smooth and they are not bright.  A very nice tube overall, but not for somebody looking for lush.  They'll wake up a laid back headphone I'm thinking so long as you aren't looking for extra sparkle on the top end.


----------



## Happy Camper

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I just received a pair of Raytheon VT-231 black base with the ladder plates and extra support rods.  I've literally only listened for 10 minutes so I'll hold off on real impressions, but I like what I'm hearing so far.  They have great drive, with excellent bass and slightly forward sounding midrange.  Tone is a bit dry, but still smooth and they are not bright.  A very nice tube overall, but not for somebody looking for lush.  They'll wake up a laid back headphone I'm thinking so long as you aren't looking for extra sparkle on the top end.


 

 This is one of the few sn7s I've liked with the 701s. I like it with the RS-1 too.


----------



## Graphicism

The Raytheon VT-231 is also my favorite 6SN7. Picture taken this evening showing dwarfed by the all-mighty 5998!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> Anybody has experience with Toshiba 6SN7GTB?
> I am looking for some information regarding their sound signature.
> Thanks.


 

 Not yet, but the Hitachi 6SN7GTB Black Plates sound very nice indeed.


----------



## Skylab

The Raytheon VT231 is a VERY nice tube indeed.  Note of course that not every Raytheon 6SN7GT is the same as their VT231.


----------



## dminches

Do any of you guys use tube coolers?  There is a guy on ebay (pearl) who sells tube dampeners and coolers.


----------



## Wedge

I don't use any tube coolers, sorry.


----------



## rosgr63

I have the Pearl coolers and dampers but never used them.
  Blackmore and KingStyles use dampers.
  Blackmore has seen improvement.


----------



## Skylab

I don't like coolers - the hide the tubes


----------



## dminches

They are definitely ugly and they do hide the tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

skylab do you use dampers?
  If you do have you noticed any improvement?


----------



## Skylab

I use Herbie's tube dampers on my GEC 6AS7G's as they are a bit microphonic, and the Herbie's do tighten that up some.  They do not solve it completely, but it seems to help.  I'm also not at all bothered by how that looks (actually think it's kind of cool).


----------



## Blackmore

I use cheap Chinese made silicon rings and they do improve some, but not with every tube, sometimes even making sound worse. Thought a lot of Herbies, but for that kind of money I wasnt sure if that will be worth it, so, for me, thats still a mistery so far. One thing I know for sure, this kind of trick works, but than again, not on every tube and may even give you the less exciting results that you expect. To me, you have to try yourself to believe it or not, there is no other way.


----------



## treal512

Few questions guys. Anyone know the sonic differences between the 6SN7WGT/A early (40s, 50s) type brownbase JAN Sylvania tubes and the slightly newer (50s, 60s) 6SN7WGT/A brownbase JAN Sylvania tubes? So the earlier type had black triangular plates that faced each other and a heavy chrome dome whereas the slightly newer ones had less chrome dome and their plates faced differently.
   
  Also, when it comes to the Sylvania Bad Boys, does anyone know the sonic differences between the Sylvania labeled 6SN7GT Bad Boy and the Sylvania OEM produced 6SN7GT Bad Boy bulbs that had different company names on the bulb? Supposedly the same exact build, materials and everything, but instead of being labeled Sylvania it would say RCA or something.
   
  Thanks


----------



## KingStyles

Tube dampeners can make a difference depending on the tube and the way they are used in a circuit. In my ba, the tube dampener on the 6sn7 only helps on microphonic tubes or metal base tubes it seems. Depending on the circuit, microphonics can be a issue or not a issue depending on where and how the tube is used. The only way to know is to try. On my kr-px4, it does seem to bring more transparency and clarity to the music. I have tried silicon rings on my microphonic tubes and didnt have a lot of success until I slapped a herbie on it. It help cut the severity of the microphonics. Also you have to be careful on what type of dampeners you use. You can over dampen them taking some of there musicality out of them. A little microphonics is a good thing.


----------



## musicman59

I have the Herbie's Halo but I did not hear much difference then I was reading a review for the Create Audio tubes and the reviewer was using a WA5 hand had different dampers in the 300B. I looked for couple of months until I found them.
 They are from Duende Criatura. These dampers really eliminate the microphonics and I noticed a better focus on the sound plus they look cool!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Here are pictures:


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





treal512 said:


> Few questions guys. Anyone know the sonic differences between the 6SN7WGT/A early (40s, 50s) type brownbase JAN Sylvania tubes and the slightly newer (50s, 60s) 6SN7WGT/A brownbase JAN Sylvania tubes? So the earlier type had black triangular plates that faced each other and a heavy chrome dome whereas the slightly newer ones had less chrome dome and their plates faced differently.
> 
> Also, when it comes to the Sylvania Bad Boys, does anyone know the sonic differences between the Sylvania labeled 6SN7GT Bad Boy and the Sylvania OEM produced 6SN7GT Bad Boy bulbs that had different company names on the bulb? Supposedly the same exact build, materials and everything, but instead of being labeled Sylvania it would say RCA or something.
> 
> Thanks


 



 Supposedly the earlier Sylvania 6SN7WGT's are supposed to be better sounging than the later 60's era WGTA's.  But I have to say that really hasn't been my experience.  I like the 60's WGTA's every bit as much.  Massively underrated 6SN7, IMHO.


----------



## dminches

Are the chrome domes different?


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





skylab said:


> treal512, my personal opinion is that the brown-base Raytheon 6SN7WGT is better sounding than most Raytheon 6SN7GT.  There are quite a few variants even within the brand and type - not all Raytheon 6SN7GT's are even the same.  But the brown base, black plate Raytheon 6SN7WGT is a VERY nice tube, IMO.


 

 I really like that particular one also. It's really one of the best bargains out there. Very easy to describe in one word --- Accurate


----------



## tunarat

Regarding that one and the brown base military and nickel base in general....all those were heavily used in radar equipment back in the day. My dad was an engineer at JHU APL for over 40 years, was on the team that developed the proximity fuse. Anyhow, in 50's and later he was the one they sent out to the naval vessels to set up the radar systems. Needless to say, our basement back then was a head fi-er's garden of eden. He liked his hi-fi stuff also, dynaco, scott, you name it..  When they moved from Maryland they pretty much liquidated everything.If I only knew then what we were holding. Dang


----------



## treal512

Time machine, let's build one!!! We can dibby up the states when we arrive and start collecting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Thanks for clearing that up for me Skylab. Has anyone been able to discern the sonic differences between the "Bad Boys" that were branded Sylvania and the ones that were rebranded other names like RCA instead of Sylvania?


----------



## tunarat

I haven't compared them, but they are supposedly the very same tube


----------



## treal512

That is what I have been reading too.


----------



## Justin Uthadude

Do tubes loose volume with age? When I change tubes, I notice sometimes I have to adjust the volume knob to get the same volume level (no spl meter, just same sounding). This occurs even between the same brand and type


----------



## rosgr63

How many hours do the tubes run between changes and on which amp?


----------



## Justin Uthadude

What I meant  to say was if I have two identical looking RCA 6sn7gt’s with the same plate type, etc, they produce different volumes. These would be tubes I bought on ebay for example, and not advertised as NOS. Do the various ‘tested as’ numbers given by the sellers’ tube tester relate to volume? I thought it referenced probable remaining tube life.


----------



## Wedge

It really depends on what the numbers they are putting up mean.  Most of what effects the "volume" of a tube is its gain.  Most analog components have some sort of tolerance on its characteristics, so it wouldn't be out of line to have to change the volume, but really shouldn't be major strides, if they are the same exact type of tube.  So if we are looking at a volume dial and you have to turn it like 30 degrees to get the same volume out (I'm exaggerating a little bit) but that would be a major stride, and probably something funky with the tubes if you ask me.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> Anybody has experience with Toshiba 6SN7GTB?
> I am looking for some information regarding their sound signature.
> Thanks.


 


  Nice tubes, mids resemble the Mullard and not some other GTBs that tend to have stronger lows.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





tunarat said:


> I really like that particular one also. It's really one of the best bargains out there. Very easy to describe in one word --- Accurate


 


  This was my impression of the Raytheons too, a lack of coloration in the midrange compared to many tubes.  It reminded me that I listen to headphones that are inherently dry sounding, hence my earlier comments.  I do feel the top end is a bit rolled off, which in my case is a good thing as it controls sibilance but I could see somebody else taking issue with it.  They have what is probably the best bass I've ever heard from my amp too.  As controlled as a round plate tung sol, but hits harder.


----------



## tunarat

X2 with my amp also, and great gain.


----------



## Wedge

I am just trying out the RCA smoke glass VT-231, they seem to do quite well with EAT 300Bs.  A little more lush in the mid range, than the TSRP, but overall has good dynamics.  I am pleasantly surprised.


----------



## rosgr63

This is good news, have you tried any 6SN7GTB's with the EAT yet?


----------



## Wedge

I actually have not because I do not have any.  Except for the new production tung-sols that I use for projects.  I will try to by a pair soon and give it a shot.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Dynamics is a strong suit of the grey glass RCA in my opinion, one that strangely isn't talked about much.  People seem to focus more on their warm sound signature, but with the right tubes around it they can be a very dynamic tube.


----------



## Wedge

I personally think that it has a great balance between their warmth and dynamics, and as my amp is currently tubed, it is just what I needed, although I do prefer my ECC32 (I just happened to have a more pressing requirement for my ECC32s).  I think I prefer this arrangement to the TSRP in its place.


----------



## Wedge

I have a pair of Tung-Sol GTBs on the way.  I'll give them a shot, when they come in.  I also have more Mullard ECC32s, and some other goodies including a pair of Sylvania Bad Boyz.


----------



## Blackmore

Looking for some ID of these, any ideas guys?


----------



## jamato8

Those are different. RCA copper grid pins flat offset plates with a red base as a better dielectric, tall glass. No extra support rods so it isn't ruggedized. I assume manufactured July 59. Is the getter still good in the base, shiny?


----------



## lawrywild

Got a NOS RCA 6SN7GTB for £2 +postage , staggered flat black plates, bottom getter, black base with silver writing. Really nice sounding and it's not even burnt in yet.


----------



## Wedge

I have some more ECC32s inbound, as well as a few others, Sylvania Bad Boyz, more TSRPs, TS GTB, Sylvania WGTA, and RCA Clear Glass.  So more fun is on the way.  Finally get to put ECC32s back into my WA-5.


----------



## Blackmore

According to the seller, they are NOS, came boxed, but not in original one, tested strong, overall clean and clear, shiny D getter and looks really new, no probs. Most important, they sound great. I thought maybe TUNGSRAM, but they do sound more Mullard or Brimar kind, to me, even better than CV1988, so, who is the maker?
  
  Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> Those are different. RCA copper grid pins flat offset plates with a red base as a better dielectric, tall glass. No extra support rods so it isn't ruggedized. I assume manufactured July 59. Is the getter still good in the base, shiny?


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> According to the seller, they are NOS, came boxed, but not in original one, tested strong, overall clean and clear, shiny D getter and looks really new, no probs. Most important, they sound great. I thought maybe TUNGSRAM, but they do sound more Mullard or Brimar kind, to me, even better than CV1988, so, who is the maker?


 
  Well the stop light brand is RCA but the base and overall looks of the tube is different as is the red date. I asked some other guys over on Audio Asylum tubes. I have many 6SN7s but none like that. Should get it figured out in not too long. They do have a Brimar look.


----------



## Wedge

I just ordered some RCA clear Glass with D-Getter, I can take a look when they come in and compare, They are RCA 6SN7GT, should be here Saturday.


----------



## Blackmore

Here is what the seller wrote:
   
  THEY HAVE *E T L* PRINTED ON THEM  WHICH IS THE ERICSSON TELEPHONE LIMITED WHO WERE BASED IN BEESTON NOTTINGHAM
  
  thx
  
  Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> Well the stop light brand is RCA but the base and overall looks of the tube is different as is the red date. I asked some other guys over on Audio Asylum tubes. I have many 6SN7s but none like that. Should get it figured out in not too long. They do have a Brimar look.


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Here is what the seller wrote:
> 
> THEY HAVE *E T L* PRINTED ON THEM  WHICH IS THE ERICSSON TELEPHONE LIMITED WHO WERE BASED IN BEESTON NOTTINGHAM
> 
> thx


 
  Interesting. Well that is a new one for me.


----------



## Blackmore

I was thinking of TUNGSRAM, cos they were located in NOTTINGHAM as well and they sure made such valves, only with slightly smoke glass, brown base, but most known is Black based one. I need to try them with my other pair of AVVT, to see if they will give me some other sonic results.


----------



## Blackmore

I bought while ago these from *musicman*, which branded as Mullard, but actually 100% Tungsram, even with identical brown base of ECC33 Mullards. Their plates are the same as these above, however I am not sure, cos I dont have them anymore, but they are flat for sure, not round as ECC33 have. I suspect that these, one way or another, are brothers.


----------



## jamato8

Don't the Tungsram have a stamped small metal plate inside the tube? I know most of their tubes do. Very interesting. Any more images?


----------



## Blackmore

I know for sure now, the plates were exact the same on these two above, but if they are the same as you describe, dont know. One thing here is pretty clear, on my pair the plates arent in the same position and on these two are.


----------



## Wedge

That tube is just an enigma to me, the 6SN7 screening looks like a Tung-Sol or RCA type of screening, but the bottle looks like a Brimar, and the plates look like RCA plates to me.  I did see some pics of a tall glass RCA, but I didn't get a chance to take a good look.


----------



## jamato8

On the ETL tube the feedback I have gotten is the actual manufacture was stated by a member with good knowledge of 6SN7's:   "What you have there is a rare Italian Fivre 6SN7GT".


----------



## Skylab

Wow, that is SUPER rare!    Holy cow.


----------



## jamato8

Ok a little more info on the tube:
   
  L M Ericsson of Sweden - manufacturers of telephonic equipment through
 much of the twentieth century including vacuum tubes. All the Ericsson tubes I have seen have been
 made in Sweden. Very high quality product. 
   
  -a private email sent to me-


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> "What you have there is a rare Italian Fivre 6SN7GT".


 

 I agree.  It looks identical to a 1952 Fivre 6SN7GT I have right here in front of me.  Rebranded, obviously.  Mine has FIVRE (with a large V) under the stop sign.  Fabulous tube.  Top five all-time for me.


----------



## Blackmore

To be honest, I was thinking about them to, but got confused by other type of them I recently got for audition. I will ask for pics of them as I was not able make them for my book, probably after Easter weekend. I even thought about Marconi or GEC, but now its very clear that we are talking about FIVRE.
  I tried them in this configuration and the sound is great, very musical with not sigh of any grainess, silky mids and very good low end, they are pretty close to ECC33 Mullards. I would say, they are on the same level, but on their own. In this configuration their sound is simpy top and thats with these AVVT's 32B, which are known for their spectrum extreems, especially with extended trance tracks, where all that nasty form digital record becomes very obviouse, cos they are not typical warmish sounding tube, its very dynamic and more on the nutral side, especially mids. But if the record quality is good, you will get the same at the end, pure music and joy and thats what happened here to, they work great together, which is a good news. I will be giving them more time, but if you can find one, grab it, however do not loose your mind with those crazy prices.
   
  Anyway, many thanks to everyone, great job and great found as well.
   
  Here some p.rn. guys


----------



## Blackmore

Just wonder, if your amp can take ECC33, is het possible to use ECC34 as well?


----------



## Wedge

Which of our amps are you reffering to?


----------



## Blackmore

I was talking about my Cary
   
  These information I got from Cary, its about plate/pin voltage
   
   The 6SN7 in the 300 SEI has the following voltages applied.

  Input tube 6SN7

  Pin 1 30V
  Pin 3, 3V
  
   2nd 6SN7

  Plate pin 2 and pin 4, 278V
  Plate pin 5, B+2 580V
  Pin 6, 290V
  Pin 3, 12v
  
   
  thx

  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Which of our amps are you reffering to?


----------



## Wedge

Are you sure about Plate Pin 5 being at 580 V?  I thought most 6SN7 plate voltage maximum was 450V.


----------



## Blackmore

I am not sure, thats all I got from Cary, so, I guess yes. Well, ECC32 and ECC34 seems to be very different from 6SN7 and cant be used as direct replacement.
   
  thx

  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Are you sure about Plate Pin 5 being at 580 V?  I thought most 6SN7 plate voltage maximum was 450V.


----------



## Wedge

Well the ECC32 has a lower plate voltage maximum than 6SN7, 300V as compared to 450V.


----------



## Blackmore

Isnt the same thing with ECC33?, but I use them, must be more than just that. Just came across this thread, where they mentioned some other differences http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tubes&n=48861&highlight=ecc34
   
  Here is data of ECC33 http://www.hifitubes.nl/weblog/wp-content/mullard-ecc33.pdf
   
  Thing is, ECC34 much cheaper than ECC32, at least thats what I see, but how do they compare sonically, thats the question.
   
   
  thx

  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Well the ECC32 has a lower plate voltage maximum than 6SN7, 300V as compared to 450V.


----------



## Wedge

Yeah other things are different, ECC32 have higher gain, lower transconductance, etc.  Different plate resistance.


----------



## Blackmore

Just wonder if there any way to build the bias adapter to it, like this one http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270714743763&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


----------



## jamato8

Do you mean bias or just an adapter to go from a octal to 9 pin?


----------



## Blackmore

I never tried 12AU7 tube on 6SN7 adapter/bias, but for example used  2C51 tube through 6SN7 adapter without problems, so, is that an bias through adapter?

  
  Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> Do you bias or just an adapter to go from a octal to 9 pin?


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> I never tried 12AU7 tube on 6SN7 adapter/bias, but for example used  2C51 tube through 6SN7 adapter without problems, so, is that an bias through adapter?


 
  You would want to know your operating points and I am assuming it ties the 9 pin to ground so that the 12AU7 is working at 6.3 volts. It would be a an adapter. I have made adapters to use 12SN7's and 12SL7's in place of 12AU7's and 12AX7's. Worked well and sounded good.


----------



## Wedge

Special delivery today.


----------



## Rob N

Anyone know how to date NU tubes? They have a two letter code


----------



## Skylab

Holy cow, Wedge! That's a heapin' helpin' of sweet tubes!


----------



## musicman59

Wow Wedge! That is a grate collection. Congrats! I am sorry for your wallet!!!


----------



## Wedge

[size=medium]
 Quote:
  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 Holy cow, Wedge! That's a heapin' helpin' of sweet tubes!



  I have actually increased our mutual friends sales for the months of March and April by 2X.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I posted a pic below of my whole collection, missing a handful of tubes that are in my Leben, WA-22, and WA-5.  Most of them are there.  Not at your level, Rob, but I get by.  Anyways, as I have said many times I love the 6SN7 and its closely related siblings.  I find that the ECC32 are the best, I love the bass presence that they have, they have a lush, but not overly lush midrange, and very detailed highs.  They are to me very natural sounding, and in general just sound right.  I would put the TSRP second and Sylvania Metal Base third, but it depends on the output choices, I find the TSRP are less picky than the Sylvania Metal Base.  I think I need to spend sometime investing in sources now, especially I'm pretty well satisfied where I am with tubes and amps.  I am waiting for the Peak/Volcano to get on Tuesday, which happens to also be on my birthday, so I got myself a nice present this year.  Rob, I will say though I think you should give some listens to some amps with 6SN7 and 300Bs, there are a few out there.  Its probably the only thing your missing out on, in your collection of amps.
   
  Jose: my wallet says to me everyday how much it hates me.
   


   ​[/size]


----------



## dminches

Are the ECC33s the true match for 6SN7s?  Why do you think that ECC32s sound better than them?


----------



## Wedge

I don't own any ECC33s.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I guess I'll try them or CV1988 next, but for now the ECC32 are my tube of choices, but all my amps can actually use them.


----------



## Skylab

Indeed the ECC33 is the "true" 6SN7equivalent. I have actually wondered if what many of us like about the ECC32 is the was it slightly misbehaves in a 6SN7 circuit  

That's just a theory - I have no idea. But I sure do like the ECC32.


----------



## dminches

The ECC32s look like they are very pricey these days.


----------



## Wedge

Yeah, they aren't really in very big supply anymore either.


----------



## Blackmore

I like those boxes, but to be honest, I like more whats inside. I see some white box with red elastic on them in the right corner above Black Treasures, I believe, and something tells me that I know this box, so, what are they?
   
  An my wallet, he doesnt talk to me at all, for a very long time now, but I am cool, I dont talk to him either...


----------



## Wedge

HAHA, The box with the red elastic are Shuguang 274Bs.  You might know them, but I don't think your really interested in them, hehe.  The red box below the Treasures, is EAT 300B.  I agree I like whats inside the boxes more.
  
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> I like those boxes, but to be honest, I like more whats inside. I see some white box with red elastic on them in the right corner above Black Treasures, I believe, and something tells me that I know this box, so, what are they?
> 
> An my wallet, he doesnt talk to me at all, for a very long time now, but I am cool, I dont talk to him either...


----------



## lawrywild

So what're the opinions on CV181-Z Treasures? I'm seeing them for about £40/single on ebay from some chinese sellers, and they look so darn pretty that I'm tempted to buy one on that alone. How do they sound compared with the TS BGRP which is what I'm using currently?


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





lawrywild said:


> So what're the opinions on CV181-Z Treasures? I'm seeing them for about £40/single on ebay from some chinese sellers, and they look so darn pretty that I'm tempted to buy one on that alone. How do they sound compared with the TS BGRP which is what I'm using currently?


 

 Higher gain, and higher current draw, which caused slight heat concerns for me in a couple of installations.  Fairly microphonic, too.  Sound was absolutely competitive - spacious, well balanced, delicate, very detailed - but even at 40 pounds or $60 I think you can do as well or better with a NOS 6SN7.  Given that the 6SN7 is one of the world's commonest tubes, I don't know why people want to make new equivalents ... seems to me the effort would be better spent on other types.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





lawrywild said:


> So what're the opinions on CV181-Z Treasures? I'm seeing them for about £40/single on ebay from some chinese sellers, and they look so darn pretty that I'm tempted to buy one on that alone. How do they sound compared with the TS BGRP which is what I'm using currently?


 


   I ordered a pair as an upgrade when I ordered my WA5-LE. IMO they are OK, just that. I prefer my Sylvania 6SN7WGT Brown Base/Chrome top or the RCA 5692 Red Base or the TS RP.BG 6SN7GT or the TS 6F8G RP/BG and clearly my Mullard ECC32.
   
  I end up selling the Tresure.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I ordered a pair as an upgrade when I ordered my WA5-LE. IMO they are OK, just that. I prefer my Sylvania 6SN7WGT Brown Base/Chrome top or the RCA 5692 Red Base or the TS RP.BG 6SN7GT or the TS 6F8G RP/BG and clearly my Mullard ECC32.
> 
> I end up selling the Tresure.


 
   
  Totally agree.  The Treasure are nothing special.  You can get better NOS tubes for less.


----------



## lawrywild

Ok, guess I'll monitor ebay like a hawk trying to pick up a cheap ECC32, something about that white ceramic base is still pulling me in though lol. 

Offtopic but I'm supposed to be getting a Chatham 6080WB this week (ceramic spacer/graphite plate like the Bendix), I'm so excited  I can imagine it being a perfect companion to my BGRP.


----------



## Wedge

These days I have never seen cheap ECC32s.


----------



## lawrywild

wedge said:


> These days I have never seen cheap ECC32s.




I only paid £14 for my TS BGRP a month ago  just gotta be patient

Got a NOS RCA GTB for just £2 the other day as well.


----------



## Wedge

Well, I guess, but I have 4 prs, so unless something pops up at obscenely good price I am probably not buying anymore.  Just arrived for the collection.


----------



## lawrywild

wedge said:


> Well, I guess, but I have 4 prs, so unless something pops up at obscenely good price I am probably not buying anymore.




I thought we were talking about me... 

JK 

But yeah if you've already got 4 pairs then....

















.....














....I am jealous


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





wedge said:


> These days I have never seen cheap ECC32s.


 

 They are $650-$800 for a pair on ebay.  yikes.


----------



## lawrywild

dminches said:


> They are $650-$800 for a pair on ebay.  yikes.




Talking about the NOS ones listed by Langrex in the UK? Very few of those pairs have sold, but they can afford to have them priced so high and just wait it out.


----------



## Wedge

There is a very reliable place you can buy them from for cheaper than eBay, but they are still quite expensive, like $550 ish.  I keep buying tubes now because I figure eventually everyone will run out, lol.  I just try not to overpay and get burned, but I did get burned on some 5998s off of eBay, bah.  I have a few pairs of all my favorite tubes and not so favorite tubes, hehe.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 A friend and I are working on designing an amp with 6SN7 drive and SE EL-34/KT-88/6550/(any other similar tube).  Little bit of fun.


----------



## jamato8

There are sellers with stock that will price their tubes high, knowing they won't sell well but also getting out the idea that they are worth more. There is a tube seller, Micronetics, that has huge stocks of tubes. He has GZ34's in metal base in large factory boxes of 500. He would have them on ebay at double the going price just waiting for the price to inch up and up as people saw his price. So his investment paid off with the tube going for 450 or more when a few years back it could be had for 60 dollars. And though thought as uncommon, the metal base GZ34 was produced in large number but hoarded by people like Micronetics. It kind of takes some of the fun out of it. 
   
  A KT77 amp would be nice but it would slip right in there with the 6550 or EL34.


----------



## Wedge

For some reason I like tubes with bases.


----------



## lawrywild

jamato8 said:


> There are sellers with stock that will price their tubes high, knowing they won't sell well but also getting out the idea that they are worth more. There is a tube seller, Micronetics, that has huge stocks of tubes. He has GZ34's in metal base in large factory boxes of 500. He would have them on ebay at double the going price just waiting for the price to inch up and up as people saw his price. So his investment paid off with the tube going for 450 or more when a few years back it could be had for 60 dollars. And though thought as uncommon, the metal base GZ34 was produced in large number but hoarded by people like Micronetics. It kind of takes some of the fun out of it.




From a business perspective very clever but from a consumer perspective that gets on my nerves.


----------



## Wedge

I have seen some TSRP going for ridiculous prices.  I have also seen them for "reasonable" prices.  I think I have a reasonable collection to last me years, so I guess I'm happy.


----------



## Skylab

Supposedly the same basic thing is true of the ECC32 - one person stumbled on a huge stockpile of them and started marketing them as a super 6SN7. The ECC32 though was not very plentiful, though, and so once his stock was gone. There were not huge amounts elsewhere. Many people balked loudly about this since, supposedly, prior to this guy doing this, the ECC32 hadn't been used in place PF the 6N7, since of course it isn't actually a 6SN7. But people kept buying them because it does actually sound really good...

BTW the above is tube legend, I cannot vouch FPR how true it is.


----------



## Wedge

Really wouldn't shock me if it was true.  I really think people are hoarding tubes out there, like 300Bs, damn where are all the WE 300Bs?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> There are sellers with stock that will price their tubes high, knowing they won't sell well but also getting out the idea that they are worth more. There is a tube seller, Micronetics, that has huge stocks of tubes. He has GZ34's in metal base in large factory boxes of 500. He would have them on ebay at double the going price just waiting for the price to inch up and up as people saw his price. So his investment paid off with the tube going for 450 or more when a few years back it could be had for 60 dollars. And though thought as uncommon, the metal base GZ34 was produced in large number but hoarded by people like Micronetics. It kind of takes some of the fun out of it.
> 
> A KT77 amp would be nice but it would slip right in there with the 6550 or EL34.


 


  Stuff like this is why the tube hunt has really been no fun for me.  I think hoarding is more prevalent in this hobby than any other, both from a greed perspective (sellers) and from a fear perspective (buyers facing finite supply).  It is all worth it when listening to music, but I only own a single pair of my favorite 6SN7 because I simply can't afford to have backups, and with the prices moving at the rate they are the market will probably guarantee that never changes for me.  Would love to own a second pair of Sylvania Bad Boys, I consistently keep coming back to them.  I really feel like I've found "my sound" in this tube, but man nobody is selling them and when they are the asking price makes me swallow hard.  I've thought about trying vacuumtubes.net for this but I don't know what their definition of bad boy is and since they are a volume dealer it feels like it would be a crapshoot.


----------



## kiertijai

Really wouldn't shock me if it was true.  I really think people are hoarding tubes out there, like 300Bs, damn where are all the WE 300Bs
   
  This morning (Bangkok time)  a pair  engraved base, used , strong test WE 300B probably of 1930's was sold on ebay for 6212$.  One tube of WE 300B original open the bidding at around 1500 $
  What's happening now?


----------



## Wedge

Yeah, I'm not paying $6,212 lol.
  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> This morning (Bangkok time)  a pair  engraved base, used , strong test WE 300B probably of 1930's was sold on ebay for 6212$.  One tube of WE 300B original open the bidding at around 1500 $
> What's happening now?


----------



## kiertijai

Yeah, I'm not paying $6,212 lol.
  
   
  I am confident that there must be  much louder "Yeah "  from the Seller and from
  those who own the original Western Electric 300B


----------



## jamato8

Years ago I knew of a guy that was buying tubes in the 70's and 80's when they were dirt cheap. He would buy boxes of them at swap meets as everyone was unloading them for the best thing ever, solid state. He had over a million tubes and many of the best you could have. I have no idea what happened to him. They were stored in a barn and for all I know he may have passed away and the tubes are still there or put in a land fill. I knew a guy that owned a store that had tubes and he dumped them in a land fill as he just wasn't selling them to customers any longer (this was a local business in Tucson, AZ). 
   
  I have many 6DJ8's just by chance. I went to a TV store and for some strange reason that they could not explain, they had around 125 or more of Amperex 6DJ8's NOS of all the different types from Orange globe, to white label to PQ and so on. That was some time back now.


----------



## Wedge

Well I have at least like a hundred folks I work with that have similar stories for themselves, like massive tube collections that just went bye bye.  Its such a shame, one of these guys used to work for Marconi Osram, another's father used to work for WE (he is always knocking on himself because of all the things that he took apart or broke or threw away that are now worth $$$), etc.  Seems like everyone I work with had some stock of tubes they just eventually got rid of.


----------



## dannie01

I have a pair of Tung Sol RPBG in my WA5LE and I love these tubes. I'm wondering to stock another pair tubes but with no luck, no stock or stockpile by someone selling with sky high prices. So I was looking for replacement and found the Ken Rad 6SN7 BPBG NOS and Sylvania 6SN7W Chrome top, short bottle (used test107/105,105/106 ), both selling at about US200/pair locally, could anyone tell about the SQ of these tubes, which pair is better and is is a fair price quoted? Thanks!


----------



## jamato8

If they are local I would make sure the Sylvania are not noisy.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> If they are local I would make sure the Sylvania are not noisy.


 


  Thanks, jamato8. Is that mean you'll prefer the Sylvania instead of Ken Rad? What about the pair of other Ken Rad below, this pair is rather cheaper than the one above.


----------



## rosgr63

Dannie if the Ken Rad have a chrome band above the base before the black glass they are not round plates.
  Double check to be sure. They are VT-231, nice tubes.
  Are the Sylvania lower mica inside or above the base?


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Dannie if the Ken Rad have a chrome band above the base before the black glass they are not round plates.
> Double check to be sure. They are VT-231, nice tubes.
> Are the Sylvania lower mica inside or above the base?


 


 Thanks rosgr. You are correct, that VT231/6SN7 is not round plates, see below pic attached but how would you verdict these non RP. And the seller did not mention about the mica of the Sylvania, I'll ask.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Danny,
  I personally like both the KR VTR231 and the TS BGRP.
  I have not done a direct comparison with the TS, but I like them both.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Hi Danny,
> I personally like both the KR VTR231 and the TS BGRP.
> I have not done a direct comparison with the TS, but I like them both.


 


 Hello Stavros, thanks. I will grab these Ken Rads. And I think the 2 pairs that shown above are identical, right?


----------



## rosgr63

You are most welcome, hope you had a nice Easter.


----------



## dannie01

Found another pair, the seller quoted these tubes are TS manufactured for military use so no Tung Sol printed in the tubes but they look very similar to the pair I owned, any idea?


----------



## Skylab

Wow, those sure look like TS BGRP that have been labeled for the British Military (those markings are absolutely British military not US). Fascinating. Never seen that before.


----------



## Rob N

I wonder why they have had such late date codes added - 1979 but definitely Tungsol


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Wow, those sure look like TS BGRP that have been labeled for the British Military (those markings are absolutely British military not US). Fascinating. Never seen that before.


 


  Thanks Skylab. It is because the CV-1998, right? And these babies are worth a try that same as BGRP?


----------



## Rob N

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Thanks Skylab. It is because the CV-1998, right? And these babies are worth a try that same as BGRP?


 
  Also because they have the Government arrow


----------



## dannie01

Why not 1951? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's what in the pic is 79-51.

  
  Quote: 





rob n said:


> I wonder why they have had such late date codes added - 1979 but definitely Tungsol


----------



## dannie01

Thanks Rob but what is Government Arrow, can't see in th pic.

  
  Quote: 





rob n said:


> Also because they have the Government arrow


----------



## Rob N

Date codes in this format show two digits for year and two for week


----------



## Rob N

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Thanks Rob but what is Government Arrow, can't see in th pic.


 

  
  Above the date code pointing up


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rob n said:


> Date codes in this format show two digits for year and two for week


 


 Hehe, I'm just kidding, not query about your knowledge of tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   


  
  Quote: 





rob n said:


> Above the date code pointing up


 

 Oh thanks Rob, saw that and just contact the seller for trade.


----------



## rosgr63

I am also surprised at the date code.
  This type of tube was produced in the mid forties.
  The round mica was produced before and after the oval mica, early forties and from the late forties and on.


----------



## Skylab

There is no way that tube, if genuine, was made in 1979.  51, maybe.  79, nope.  Tung-Sol was gone already.  Cetron acquired some Tung-Sol assets in 1975, and kept making some tubes like the 6336, but under the Cetron name.


----------



## rosgr63

skylab, I don't think the oval mica was made in the fifties.
  So maybe it was left over stock from the mid forties?


----------



## jamato8

They stopped using the tooling for the round plate in the 40s. It was tooling for the 6SL7, which is why they had the round plate.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> skylab, I don't think the oval mica was made in the fifties.
> So maybe it was left over stock from the mid forties?


 


  Good question - I'm not sure about that.  There exists the possibility those are somehow fakes, although that seems unlikely - I have never seen anyone actually fake the exact plate structure of the TS BGRP, nor have I ever heard of anyone doing it.  So maybe they were relabeled by the British military with that code at some point.  Anyway, sounds like 51 is unlikely, and 79 is out of the question, in terms of date of manufacture.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> They stopped using the tooling for the round plate in the 40s. It was tooling for the 6SL7, which is why they had the round plate.


 


  And the TS BGRP 6SL7 and 6SU7 are super nice tubes


----------



## Wedge

Rob have you had a chance to listen to RCA Smoke Glass 6SN7s?


----------



## jamato8

I have some grey glass (coated) 6SN7 and don't like them. They are overly warm and do not do detail very well. I also find them lacking on the high frequency range. IMO
   
  Yes, the 6SU7 is very nice. I have a bunch as I used to use the tube in an amp and stocked up on them. They used to be cheap as no one was using them or recognized that they were just a well matched 6SL7. Even a couple of years ago I could get them for 8 to 10 dollars and sometimes less.


----------



## Skylab

Yep.  I got a really sweet NOS pair from your man Paul Lindemann.  I like them.  They are uber smooth.  Just the right thing for a system that's otherwise leaning a little bright.  I'm not using them at present, since I prefer the TS BGRP, but they are nice tubes for sure.


----------



## musicman59

I agree with Jamato8 and Skylab. They are nice sounding but with a little more emphasis in the midrange IMO.


----------



## Wedge

Technically I think that he's your guy since you pointed me to him sometime or other, haha.  Real nice guy.  I definitely put a dent in his stock of tubes.  He has some really nice tubes and he is more reasonable than a lot of the Tube World, Tube Depot, and even some folks on eBay.  Actually I was heeding some of your advice regarding buying tubes we like now, and keeping a couple around as prices are inflating.  So I got a couple of TSRP, ECC 32, some others.  Then I picked up a stock of "cheaper" NOS tubes, since I have 3 amps that use 6SN7s, made sense.  I will probably cry the day Shuguang Treasures become the NOS tubes to purchase.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yep.  I got a really sweet NOS pair from your man Paul Lindemann.  I like them.  They are uber smooth.  Just the right thing for a system that's otherwise leaning a little bright.  I'm not using them at present, since I prefer the TS BGRP, but they are nice tubes for sure.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





skylab said:


> And the TS BGRP 6SL7 and 6SU7 are super nice tubes


 
   
  That is good to know.  I actually bought a pair of TS BGRP 6SL7s 5 months ago but I haven't tried them because you got me hooked on the Mullard ECC35s!


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, I love the ECC35.  It's funny for a while I had several amps that used the 6SL7, and right now I have none.  But that's such a common tube I am keeping my stash


----------



## dannie01

I'm about to buy these TS with the seller but now worrying if it is genuine or not, any advise gentlemen? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote:


rosgr63 said:


> I am also surprised at the date code.
> This type of tube was produced in the mid forties.
> The round mica was produced before and after the oval mica, early forties and from the late forties and on.


 

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> There is no way that tube, if genuine, was made in 1979.  51, maybe.  79, nope.  Tung-Sol was gone already.  Cetron acquired some Tung-Sol assets in 1975, and kept making some tubes like the 6336, but under the Cetron name.


 

  
  Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> They stopped using the tooling for the round plate in the 40s. It was tooling for the 6SL7, which is why they had the round plate.


 

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Good question - I'm not sure about that.  There exists the possibility those are somehow fakes, although that seems unlikely - I have never seen anyone actually fake the exact plate structure of the TS BGRP, nor have I ever heard of anyone doing it.  So maybe they were relabeled by the British military with that code at some point.  Anyway, sounds like 51 is unlikely, and 79 is out of the question, in terms of date of manufacture.


----------



## dannie01

Adventure begins, I confirmed the sale with the seller and will collect these tubes in the evening. I will then post some pics here for clarification if it is genuine or not, bless me guys.


----------



## Wedge

Good Luck Dannie


----------



## dannie01

Thanks, Wedge. Pics will be coming tonight, it's exciting for the finding.

  
  Quote: 





wedge said:


> Good Luck Dannie


----------



## jamato8

I have never seen a fake Tungsol black glass round plate. While they are worth a bit of change now, to duplicate one would be quite a feat. There are many small things that make up a TS RP and if you look at images of one from different angles, you can get a good idea of what they should look like from the small fittings on the top of the mica on. Besides, the coat the glass black would also require a different type of expertise. If someone was really going to fake something, why not a 300B WE with nice engraved bases? Now that would require some tooling and a variety of other skills.


----------



## dannie01

Agree, jamato. That would be ridiculous to fake a 6SN7 instead of a valuable WE300B if they are skillful enough to make that kind of money. Actuall I have not really doubt or worry they are fake, I have a pair TS RPBG in use in my WA5LE and they look almost identical from the pics, anyway, fact is coming tonight and thanks for the words of encourage.

  
  Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> I have never seen a fake Tungsol black glass round plate. While they are worth a bit of change now, to duplicate one would be quite a feat. There are many small things that make up a TS RP and if you look at images of one from different angles, you can get a good idea of what they should look like from the small fittings on the top of the mica on. Besides, the coat the glass black would also require a different type of expertise. If someone was really going to fake something, why not a 300B WE with nice engraved bases? Now that would require some tooling and a variety of other skills.


----------



## rosgr63

I don't think they are fake, but left over stock.


----------



## jamato8

I got about 30 GZ34 Mullards a few years back that had everything rubbed off and a relabeler from the US had put their stamp on them. You could still make out the date code and the code for Blackburn in England. They are all 1962 but were marked as later made and made in the USA. You just never know unless you know the tube.


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]I owned Sophia's 6SN7, which are basically the same as TJ's, cos they are coming from the same TJ factory. [/size]
  [size=10pt]Anyway, if your amp and hp's are warmish, it may fit nicely, but I would  take a look at TS Mouse Ears or Sylvania Bad Boys first, especially if you dont need many of them in your amp, for example if your 6SN7 is an input, buy an good NOS, done. I found the overall balance of last two better.[/size]
  [size=10pt]I don't think Sophia sells their valves cheap, its how you look at it and what you get for it, but that's how I see it.[/size]


  
  Quote: 





manolo said:


> Appreciation for the TJ Full Music 6SN7 and 6SL7 ?


----------



## dannie01

First of all, SORRY for the size of those pics for slow loading.
   
  I have the TS BGRP and Ken Rad collected tonight and took some pics below. The structure of the Tung Sol marked and the CV1988 look exactly the same in my eyes. But the boxes are different, the one for US Army with very sturdy and beautiful box but the one for British Army is like trash. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have the new pair plugged in the WA5LE driving the HD800 w/stock cable. Sound also identical but seems has a bit brighter highs, not fatigue at all.
   
  From left to right, the Ken Rad, TS for British Military and TS for US Army.
   




   
   
  Found a secret weapon, very good tool for polish/clean the pin of the tubes. The nail polish block, something like a sponge, brush the pins to shine and clean with a brush and alcohol. It looks really works. The one in left is after clean with the nail block. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   


   
  The new pair TS BGRP in the WA5LE.


----------



## dannie01

The current stock of my 6SN7, although only have 3 pairs, but sure would make me happy for quite a long while with good music with the WA5LE.


----------



## Skylab

Nice tubes, for sure, Dannie. Congrats! How do the British marked tubes sound - assume they sound like BGRP?


----------



## dannie01

Thanks, Skylab. Yes, they are great and sound almost identical to the BGRP with slightly bit more in highs but not fatigue at all. Mids and Bass almost the same, still need more burn-in for new tubes to judge in the mean while but again, they sound as good as the TS BGRP, oops, they should be the same only with different marking. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Nice tubes, for sure, Dannie. Congrats! How do the British marked tubes sound - assume they sound like BGRP?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Dannie, you might want to listen and see if the brighter treble balance is focused in a single channel.  One of the tubes marked CV1988 does not have copper grid post rods where as the other does.  I personally have found this to matter when it comes to matching.  I had a pair of mouse ear Tung Sols mismatched in this way, and the tube with copper posts had the more laid back and mild treble of the two.  It was obvious enough to me that I no longer use this pair of tubes.
   
  I really hesitated to write this, since I don't want to "rain on your parade" so to speak if it turns out to be true, but I see lots of pairs of TSRP mismatched in this way, and if it can result in a tone mismatch between channels I think people should know about it before dropping this kind of money.


----------



## Blackmore

Thats very interesting point, hmm, I own a pair of TS Mouse, where one with black and one with grey plates, however not sure if this gave me any impressions of disbalance in sound, will try to check them out soon again...
  
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Dannie, you might want to listen and see if the brighter treble balance is focused in a single channel.  One of the tubes marked CV1988 does not have copper grid post rods where as the other does.  I personally have found this to matter when it comes to matching.  I had a pair of mouse ear Tung Sols mismatched in this way, and the tube with copper posts had the more laid back and mild treble of the two.  It was obvious enough to me that I no longer use this pair of tubes.
> 
> I really hesitated to write this, since I don't want to "rain on your parade" so to speak if it turns out to be true, but I see lots of pairs of TSRP mismatched in this way, and if it can result in a tone mismatch between channels I think people should know about it before dropping this kind of money.


----------



## dannie01

Thank you very much for the finding, Xcalibur. I will check the tubes carefully again. But how can you find that in the blur pic above and would you mind to point it out? Thanks again. 

 Edit. If the below pic is what you refer about the copper grid. Sorry about that, the left on is CV1988 and the right one is TS RPBG that I did not clearly indicate. But anyway, thanks and I'll check it tonight.
   

  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Dannie, you might want to listen and see if the brighter treble balance is focused in a single channel.  One of the tubes marked CV1988 does not have copper grid post rods where as the other does.  I personally have found this to matter when it comes to matching.  I had a pair of mouse ear Tung Sols mismatched in this way, and the tube with copper posts had the more laid back and mild treble of the two.  It was obvious enough to me that I no longer use this pair of tubes.
> 
> I really hesitated to write this, since I don't want to "rain on your parade" so to speak if it turns out to be true, but I see lots of pairs of TSRP mismatched in this way, and if it can result in a tone mismatch between channels I think people should know about it before dropping this kind of money.


----------



## Blackmore

On the top of the right tube you see the 4 cooper pins, 2 on each side, stick out and holding the metal parts that just sits between them, sorry, just dont know what they are, parts I mean, however I may be wrong, cos the pic of the left tube isnt that clear made and doesnt show the full picture of the construction...


----------



## dannie01

Thank you, Blackmore and you're right, I can see that. But they are two different tubes that I've stated above, the one on left is the CV1988 and the other on right is TS RPBG. Anyway, will check it out to confirm that tonight and thanks again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> On the top of the right tube you see the 4 cooper pins, 2 on each side, stick out and holding the metal parts that just sits between them, sorry, just dont know what they are, parts I mean, however I may be wrong, cos the pic of the left tube isnt that clear made and doesnt show the full picture of the construction...


----------



## rosgr63

The parts at the top attached to the grids are cooling plates.


----------



## Blackmore

But of course, thx mate.
  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The parts at the top attached to the grids are cooling plates.


----------



## sillysally

Here is a link to a broken VT231 TSRP., steel also.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/90761/tung-sol-round-plate-in-the-nude-warning-big-pix#post_1054328


----------



## jamato8

Tubes are just so cool. This is a simple triode with the cathode, grid and plates. I do prefer copper grid pins over steel but most tubes are made with steel. It is funny how we go to such great lengths to get the best IC's, well some do and best is questionable. The highest purity copper or silver, oxygen free and mono crystal and yet with tube equipment, often your signal is going through some sort of steel. It seems to work out though.


----------



## dannie01

Having checked and confirmed the newly acquired British Military CV1988 RPBG, they are steel grid pin instead of the TS RPBG in copper grid pin.
   
  TS CV1988 RPBG British Military with steel grid pin and with luck, Xcalibur, they are matched in structure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   

   
  TS RPBG with copper grid pin


----------



## rosgr63

They are very nice Danny even with the steel pins.
  Enjoy them my friend.


----------



## dannie01

Thank you, Stavros. Yes, they are great sounding even with only few hrs of burn-in. And Xcalibur is correct, the pair with copper  sound more laid back, darker and mild treble, the pair with steel grid pin with more noticable highs and detail, they are something different in SQ, not exactly the same character which i was wrong in my previous post.

  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> They are very nice Danny even with the steel pins.
> Enjoy them my friend.


----------



## rosgr63

This would be true with most 6SN7 with copper posts compared to steel ones.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Thank you very much for the finding, Xcalibur. I will check the tubes carefully again. But how can you find that in the blur pic above and would you mind to point it out? Thanks again.
> 
> Edit. If the below pic is what you refer about the copper grid. Sorry about that, the left on is CV1988 and the right one is TS RPBG that I did not clearly indicate. But anyway, thanks and I'll check it tonight.


 

 The posts that the black U shaped cooling plates are attached to.  You can see they are gold colored on one tube and not the other.  I'm not asserting that this matters, only that I found it to matter in a pair of tung sol mouse ears so it is possibly something to check on.  I don't believe the fact that one tube is marked CV1988 explains the lack of the copper posts, because I see Tung Sol branded round plates for sale all the time with steel (silver colored) ones.  I also had a pair of RCA 6SN7GTB mismatched in this way which I also let go of because I found the tone to be mismatched between channels. It seems tube makers produced them with both types of material for whatever reason.  Perhaps at the time it didn't matter so far as the tubes operation was concerned.
   
  edit:  I see your ears are confirming what I heard with my pair.  I should have checked the next page before posting this.    I'm not certain if this is a truth that can be applied to all tubes, but it certainly seems to matter for the Tung Sol ones.  My own pair of black glass round plates have copper pins and this is the only way I would have mine since they are borderline too bright for me as they are.  I think this detail is why some people offer conflicting opinions about this tube being a bit bright in the treble while others don't.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> This would be true with most 6SN7 with copper posts compared to steel ones.


 


  I think it is interesting how little this gets talked about in general when it seems, to me at least, that this would be an important detail to pay attention to as far as sound quality is concerned.  I've found that I consistently like the sound of tubes with copper posts better, but as has been pointed out more tubes seem to have been made with steel ones.


----------



## Rob N

A few tube pics

Sylvania metal base labelled as Mullard











NOS Metal base civilian version with green print


----------



## Skylab

Nice tubes, Rob N!  Very odd to see that Sylvania marked Mullard!


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice tubes indeed!
   
  What about a metal base Brimar?


----------



## Rob N

Actually an MOV B65


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob, wrong photo, here is the Brimar Metal Base:


----------



## Rob N

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Thanks Rob, wrong photo, here is the Brimar Metal Base:
> 
> 
> 
> Still a B65 made by MOV/GEC.The B65 was also made with a plastic base


----------



## Blackmore

Looking for an ID of this one, anyone?


----------



## Wedge

Little quiet in here lately, thought I'd post some pics of the lastest additions to the 6SN7 collection.


----------



## rosgr63

What's the tube on the right?


----------



## Wedge

I ordered Ken-Rad Angled plates, and those are what I got.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I have no reason not to trust my source.


----------



## rosgr63

What are they branded as?


----------



## rosgr63

Here is a rare tube.
   
  Do you know what it is?
   
  Blackmore & Kingstyles keep quiet!


----------



## Wedge

IEC Servicemaster.


----------



## rosgr63

Wedge, have you tried the IEC Service master and RCA 5692?
  How do they compare to your other 6SN7?


----------



## Wedge

Have not tried them yet, as I only just got my WA-5 back.  I'll pop them in today and let them break in a little bit.


----------



## rosgr63

OK, Thanks.
  Let us know how the sound.


----------



## Wedge

BTW I have no idea what that tube is you posted.  The symbol looks oddly familiar to something that I have seen before but I just can't place it.


----------



## rosgr63

I give you a clue: It's a european tube, look at the spacers, they are not mica.


----------



## Broken Arrow

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I give you a clue: It's a european tube, look at the spacers, they are not mica.


 


 telefunken


----------



## dminches

I have been using a pair of metal base Sylvania 6SN7Ws in my Modwright Transporter and I am very pleased with the sound.  As of now they are my favorite tube for the unit.  I do have a pair of Chelmer CV181s which I haven't tried yet.


----------



## Skylab

The metal-base 6SN7W is a very nice tube to be sure. For that matter so are the tall 6SN7W with the black base. Some of the very best US 6SN7's. I am using the black-base 6SN7W in my WA22, and they are very nice indeed.


----------



## rosgr63

My own preference from the 3 types of Sylvania 6SN7W that I have are the short bottle black base with the US Navy Anchor.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





broken arrow said:


> telefunken


 

 It's not a Telefunken but you are getting there!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The metal-base 6SN7W is a very nice tube to be sure. For that matter so are the tall 6SN7W with the black base. Some of the very best US 6SN7's. I am using the black-base 6SN7W in my WA22, and they are very nice indeed.


 


  Is this the one with the shorter height base, and the bottom mica visible above the base?  I picked up some 6SN7W short bottle with the US navy stenciling and was really unimpressed.... wondering why they were so highly thought of.  Then I found these, looking quite unassuming and with generic 6SN7GT markings and am simply blown away by their sound.  I know there was a lot of funny business in those days when it came to tube labeling, and I often wonder if people are really getting what they think they are getting when they plunk down for an expensive Sylvania tube sometimes.  On the other hand it can also mean finding diamonds in the rough for cheap, as I paid $59 for my tubes and consider them to be second only to the black glass tung sol in my collection.


----------



## rosgr63

I have the Sylvania 6SN7W where the lower mica is above the base and I consider them as average. The ones where the lower mica sits below the top of the base are the ones I refer to.
  I also found out there is variation between the same type tubes. I have a few of the lower mica ones but a NIB pair I just got sounds the best.


----------



## grokit

So what to make of these? Cat hair not included 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   

   
  From http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=235559 :
   
  "...genuine Badboys. These are the key distinguishing features:
 1)3 hole black T plates
 2)Bottom getter flashing 1/3 way up the tube
 3)shinny silver top and bottom rectangular mica. The top mica has three small triangular edges bent down on each side.
 4)Copper grid posts
 5) Date code of 2xx(or possibly 1xx or 3xx) were 1, 2 or 3 represent 1951, 1952 or 1953 and xx represents the week.
 6)Full black bottom base with Sylvania or JAN-CHS-6SN7GT in green letters"
   
  Mine look like they only have two holes in each T-plate, and there is no printing on the (black) base so no date code. I have no idea if the grid posts are copper or not


----------



## rosgr63

You can tell from the pars of the posts extending over the top mica.
  Looking at them they are not copper.
  I've read at http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm   that 2 hole plates like yours are also "bad boys"
   
*QUOTE*
  This is the original version of this tube. It may be found in all three sizes of glass envelope. The Sylvania Tall Boy types have two triangular shaped plates facing each other mounted high in the tube, with either a top or bottom getter. Later GT versions were in a medium glass envelope with a green label and blackplates with bottom getter, sometimes called the "Bad Boy" 6SN7, and are sought after for their excellent sonics. The Bad Boy tubes are virtually identical to the military VT-231 from the early 1950s and are currently a less expensive alternative, but this could change as the Bad Boy fad catches on! A side note about Bad Boys, there were versions with 2 rivet holes in each plate, and versions with 3 holes. Both types sound identical. Don't fall for the bogus story that only the 3 rivet hole types are the true "Bad Boys"! You will miss out on some great sound from the 2 hole type, since the 3 hole versions are more difficult to find, more expensive elsewhere, and don't sound any different! I suspect the "3-hole only" story got started by my competition to justify charging a higher price for these tubes!
*UNQUOTE*


----------



## Xcalibur255

This was debunked both here and elsewhere.  Somebody actually took apart a 2-hole plate and 3-hole plate tube and compared them, finding the internal construction to be quite different.  The 3-hole plate tubes were produced on different tooling.  Of all the manufacturers Sylvania seems to have the most variations in its tubes by far I have noticed.
   
  As for my own tubes........
  The majority of the top getter tubes seem to have the normal full base where the bottom mica is not visible above the tube.  The only information I could dig up indicated that this particular tube, with the shorter plastic base exposing the bottom mica, is the original long plate version of the 3-hole plate and hails from the same lineage as the metal base military tubes.  The reference threads on the forum seem to support this too, which describes a later black plastic base tube that replaced the metal base.  It trades the slam and dynamics of the metal base for a more seductive and 3-dimensional sound, which is how I would describe the tubes I have.
   
  I know this, in my system they are unsurpassed by anything but the black glass tung sol.  Not the "Bad Boys", the greyglass RCA, the Sylvania 6SN7W, the Brimar, the Raytheon VT-231, or anything else I have compares.  They take you deep into the music in the same way the round plates do, a very rare quality IMO.


----------



## rosgr63

Here are some copper grid posts


----------



## grokit

Very nice rosgr63, I can see the copper, the getters are much shinier, and the t-plates have three holes in them. The glass doesn't seem to have the flashing on the bottom 1/3 though, and your bottoms are metal it looks like.
   
  I would love to compare the sonics between my version and yours, I think yours are more likely to be the "real deal" but the whole thing seems to be a bit confusing.
   
  I would say that mine sound pretty good, but I would have to agree that they do not sound as good as the black glass tung sols. I'm not using them in my Woo, but in a pre tube stage for my solid state speaker amp K1000/HE-6 rig.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I've never seen a tube like the one rosgr63 has just posted before.  It certainly looks beautiful, and probably sounds so as well.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for your comments.
  This is a one of two NIB Canadian Marconi VT 231 "Bad Boys" made on Sylvania tooling.
  I will post a pic of the real Sylvania Bad Boys later today.
   
  They sound average just like the original Sylvania "Bad Boys", but I only tested them for an hour or so to make sure they were fine.
   
  BTW any clues as to what is the tube I showed you in post #832?


----------



## KingStyles

I know, I know, pick me teacher.


----------



## rosgr63

Kingstyles you are a "Bad Boy", you found out what they are so fast, you are so good!
   
  Go on spread the word!


----------



## KingStyles

I will let someone else figure this out. Much funner that way.


----------



## baldux

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Here is a rare tube.
> 
> Do you know what it is?
> 
> Blackmore & Kingstyles keep quiet!


 

 One of the few European "6SN7" but that's too easy so:
  It's produced by RFT in former East Germany, most likely dealed as reparation payment for the Soviets.
  Those were mainly used in (portable) television receivers back those days.
   
  Very tough tube due to ceramic spacers, reminds me of field signal tubes which had the same.
  Maybe they just used them because of shortage even ceramic being more expensive or it has been asked for.
  But there seems no reason according their regular usage.
   
  Anyway please let us know your listening experience with them.


----------



## Oskari

Yes, the Mühlhausen Works of RFT.


----------



## rosgr63

Well done!
   
  It's not a bad tube actually, nice all around but nothing special.
   
  Here is a photo of the Sylvania "Bad Boys"


----------



## Blackmore

This one is a very rare example of 6SN7 type, you should start some contest mate.
  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Here is a rare tube.
> 
> Do you know what it is?
> 
> Blackmore & Kingstyles keep quiet!


----------



## rosgr63

Nice to see you back from your holidays Blackmore, we missed you!
   
  I have a nice photo next, you know the tube so keep quiet please.


----------



## Wedge

So I ran the IECs in for about 8 hours now gave an initial listen.  My initial impressions are that they are a pretty dynamic tube, not quite as musical as the ECC32, but pretty smooth nonetheless. The bass impact is less than the Mullard ECC32, but the bass it has seems to be very tight.  I think the top end seems to a little bit shinier than some other 6SN7s I have been listening to.  I might need to let them run in for a bit longer, as they seemed to have changed quite a bit from when I first installed them, so I am unsure if they have settled out yet.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks, for the feedback.
  Do they have copper or steel grid posts?


----------



## Wedge

Copper


----------



## rosgr63

Identification help needed!
   
  Brown Base, Black Glass, Round Bottom Getter.
   
  Markings:
   
  CV1988
  KB/FE
  1247 (not 100% sure)
  6SN7GT
   
  Is it a Brimar, Mullard, STC or ?
   
  Any ideas?


----------



## Oskari

FE = STC, Oldway
   
http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Oskari


----------



## rosgr63

I have a Mullard branded 6SN7GT which has an STC factory code.
  Did STC make tubes for Mullard?
  It's the tube on the right.


----------



## Wedge

I have done a little more listening with the IECs and I don't particularly love the pairing with the EAT 300B, but its not bad.


----------



## Skylab

rosgr63 said:


> I have a Mullard branded 6SN7GT which has an STC factory code.
> Did STC make tubes for Mullard?




It's possible, but that Mullard paint job looks a little too fresh...is it possible someone painted the STC tubes to try to get a better value? I have certainly seen Russian tubes that were stenciled Mullard pretty convincingly that were very obviously never sold by Mullard...


----------



## rosgr63

The logo is not that good on the bottom but who knows?
   
  Here is a photo of a pair of Neotron Black Glass Round Plates.


----------



## dannie01

What a collection, Stavros. I'm drooling.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Danny, Thanks my friend.
  I am limited to 6SN7 not as articulate as others.


----------



## Wedge

Yeah but you have quite a 6SN7 collection.  I like to think mine is pretty good, but I think yours and Skylab's take mine to the cleaners.  Been running in the 5692s and I have to say I think they pair quite nicely with the EAT300Bs, been doing most of my listening with the HE-6 on the WA-5 using the K1K port.  Very smooth sound.


----------



## rosgr63

Come on guys!
  You make me blush.
  My collection is very humble.
  I'll post more pics soon!


----------



## KingStyles

He is just trying to be humble. He just doesnt want anybody to show up at his doorstep trying to raid his closet.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> He is just trying to be humble. He just doesnt want anybody to show up at his doorstep trying to raid his closet.


 

 Is that a threat or a promise?


----------



## KingStyles

That would be one heck of a flight to raid someones closet. Anyways, I think I remembered you saying you didnt have a closet.


----------



## rosgr63

If you do come over, I'll have them ready packed for you!
  I'll make sure there won't be any free time to look or listen.
  It's true I don't have a closet. The tubes live in aluminum cases, sorted by country of origin and type.


----------



## Blackmore

GE branded, brown base 5692


----------



## PanamaRed

Ohh *drool*. My experience with 5692s is limited to the CBS/Hytron (Which I love). I'd love to take a listen to these.
   
  My Hytrons have been on the backburner as I burned in some Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plates. My initial impressions (which I posted in the Woo thread) were completely premature. I can understand why they command such an [unfortunate] high price.
   
  I just inserted some Mouse Ears to take a listen to them and so far I am pretty pleased (especially considering the bargain price I got them for).
   
  I've been trying to ween my addictive 6SN7 spending spree by focusing on other tubes but I keep on getting the itch for a pair of bad boys (that sounds wrong).
   
   
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> GE branded, brown base 5692


----------



## rosgr63

Tung Sol Mouse ears are one of my favorite tubes.
   
  As for the addiction once you try a 6SN7 there is no turning back!
   
  So many wonderful tubes to try. You never know how they sound unless you try yourself.


----------



## PanamaRed

Very true. I've been buying some 6F8G's for the past week. They are sort of a 6SN7 methadone.
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> As for the addiction once you try a 6SN7 there is no turning back!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





panamared said:


> Very true. I've been buying some 6F8G's for the past week. They are sort of a 6SN7 methadone.


 

 I like it!


----------



## Blackmore

All I can say now, this tube is not the most natural sounding, but its very balanced, have a great bass and very musical presentation. His tonality is very polite, but not overly warm, you may call it bit rolled off, but I would call it polite instead, because I still hear enough of detail, very good mids and low end, not such good extension / soundstagin, or would I say, this one doesn't have extreme character, more focused and compact soundstage, but not compressed at all. I really like it with modern kind of music, but for classical I would choose some other tube, however it may depends on record quality, after all. For example my XRCD sounds just as amazing as through Brimar, but the tonality still have less exciting / natural sound
  Anyway, I will be giving this one more hours to see how it will develops, maybe roll some 300B as well.
   
  Quote: 





panamared said:


> Ohh *drool*. My experience with 5692s is limited to the CBS/Hytron (Which I love). I'd love to take a listen to these.
> 
> My Hytrons have been on the backburner as I burned in some Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plates. My initial impressions (which I posted in the Woo thread) were completely premature. I can understand why they command such an [unfortunate] high price.
> 
> ...


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, anyone who tried Toshiba branded 6SN7gtb? So far, I found one with O and one with Rectangle ( branded as CHANNEL MASTER ) getter, but the rest of construction seems to be the same. Some feedbacks would be nice.
   
  THX


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Blackmore, I have the following Toshiba with an O getter..
  It sounds ordinary, not that exciting, perhaps I should give it more time.
   
   

   
   
  Channel Master sound much better to me they come with different logos and O or Square getters


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks mate, I just bought one CHANNEL MASTER with print on the base, square getter, like on the second pic at the left.


----------



## rosgr63

It's a wonderful tube, let us know what you think.


----------



## dminches

Did Philips manufacture their own ECC35s or were they made by someone else, like Mullard?


----------



## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Did Philips manufacture their own ECC35s or were they made by someone else, like Mullard?


 
  I think they were made by mullard and rebranded by phillips. They are identical to the mullards.


----------



## Skylab

Of course, once Philips owned Mullard, who was really making them?


----------



## Wedge

Well do they say made in Holland or made in Great Britain?


----------



## Skylab

I was being silly, buddy, but you missed my point. The point was, even if they were made in the Mullard factory in England, if they were made after Philips acquired Mullard, wouldn't one still say they were made by Philips, since Mullard was part of Philips?


----------



## KingStyles

Mine say made in Holland.


----------



## Skylab

Those are indeed completely Philips. Nothing Mullard involved in those.


----------



## Wedge

I figured you were, I can be a little dry at times, though.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I was being silly, buddy, but you missed my point. The point was, even if they were made in the Mullard factory in England, if they were made after Philips acquired Mullard, wouldn't one still say they were made by Philips, since Mullard was part of Philips?


----------



## KingStyles

The innards are exactly the same as the mullards. One of them was producing them for the other. Here is the top and side view.


----------



## Blackmore

If we think logically, Philips did made some tubes at their own plant in Holland, Heerlen, but are these ECC35 a very good example of it, but using Mullards technology? I dont know really.  Because Philips was the owner of Mullard at the time and its clearly says Made in Holland, so, does it mean REALY Made in Holland or still UK made, but because of ownership they had certain rights to print such misleading info? I will ask about this, not sure if the answer will be found easy or at all, but I will give it a shot.
  Or, would that even be possible that all parts been made at UK plant, but finished / assembled in Holland? This way of producing is well known and may and still used for avoiding of high customs  tax if you want to re-sell outside of origin, because you import / export the parts and not finished product.
   
  The only real thing are the codes, which will tell us their origin, so, are there any of such printed? I dont see any, at least not on the pics posted, however there is something on the first one, one with damper on it, I believe.
   
  Dont know for sure, but to me, they are made in UK, however still guessing here.
   
  Philips valve codes http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf


----------



## KingStyles

Here is the codes for my two phillips/miniwatt ecc35
  1. RU4     R1E     Dosent say where it was made on it
  2. RU4     B8B    Says made in holland on it
   
  The best I can tell from your phillips codes is they were both made by mullard and are both ecc35. #1 was made in 1961 and #2 was made in 1958 (the dates are correct by what I was sold). 
  #1 tube
*RU* = ECC35
*4*   = a random # with no purpose
*R*   = Mullard Radio valve Co., Mitcham
*1*   = 1961
*E*  =  May
   
  #2 tube
*RU* = ECC35
*4*   = a random # with no purpose
*B   *= Mullard, Blackburn
*8   *=  1958
*B*   =  Feburary


----------



## Blackmore

Whell, this only proofs that they had the rights to print what ever they want, regarding Made in Holland I mean.
   
  THX for sharing.


----------



## rosgr63

Here it is:
   
  I recon that Mullard made most ECC32, ECC33, ECC34 and ECC35.
   
   
   
Mullard was founded as a private company in 1920 by Captain S. R. Mullard, who had worked with the Admiralty on valves during the war and who is now the Chairman of the Company. In 1924, when further finance was needed for development as well as for production, half the shares were bought by N.V . Philips Gloeilampenfabrieken, Eindhoven. Later, more capital was needed and N.V. Philips acquired the remaining half of the shares in 1927.
   
Report on the Supply of Electronic Valves and Cathode Ray Tubes
THE MONOPOLIES AND RESTRICTIVE PRACTICES COMMISSION 20 December 1956


----------



## Skylab

Interesting...so for some reason they marked some tubes "Made in Holland" even though they were made in the UK by Mullard...I wonder why they would do that.  Interesting.


----------



## KingStyles

Maybe in that day and time, sold in holland could be labeled as made in holland.


----------



## rosgr63

I believe that during the cold war CCCP would make tubes for European makers which were labelled "Made in Britain".
  The DDR RFT factories made the Telefunken 6SN7GT which are labelled "Made in Western Germany"


----------



## williaty

What's a reasonable price currently for Tung-Sol mouse ears? Were they relabeled as any other brands?


----------



## rosgr63

Some mouse ears develop a crack on the base. If the tube has no shorts and leakages and tests strong is nothing to worry about but the price should be reduced to reflect this.
  I have one relabeled as Motorola and one as LE-HI, and look and sound as good as my Tung Sol one.
  I have read that only Tung Sol made Mouse Ears.
  A reasonable price now would be around $30 IMHO.


----------



## KevinWolff

45 for mine at Audiotubes
  
  Quote: 





williaty said:


> What's a reasonable price currently for Tung-Sol mouse ears? Were they relabeled as any other brands?


----------



## PanamaRed

Your best deals will be found on ebay. Just search for "Tung 6SN7" and go through each listing looking for those big beautiful ears. Most of the auctions i've seen with "mouse ears" in the description sell for much higher.
  Quote: 





williaty said:


> What's a reasonable price currently for Tung-Sol mouse ears? Were they relabeled as any other brands?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Also keep in mind the grey t-plate tung sols without the actual "mouse ears" are the same tube and have the same sonics but often go for less money.  People tend to mistake them for russian tubes because honestly they look a lot like one if the base label is worn off.  I have several pairs of these, all for under $50 for a matched pair, and they are a clean and detailed sounding tube.  Not euphonic at all.  As rosgr said they often have cracked bases but as long as the tube tests okay that shouldn't matter.  I can attest to this from personal experience.
   
  edit:  watch out for the type of center grid post.  Some are copper (gold colored) and some are steel (silver colored).  They sound noticeably different.  I had a mismatched pair that I retired because of this.  Personally I think the copper ones sound better, the steel post version is brighter and thinner sounding.


----------



## rosgr63

I have used a cracked base Tung Sol Mouse Ears for months and it was, still is fine.
  All tubes must be checked for shorts, leakages before use.


----------



## Skylab

Another fantastic tube that doesn't get a lot of love is the tall - bottle Tung Sol 6SN7WGT with the brown base. This is the exact tube that the Russian Reissues are styled after, so you have to make sure you are getting the real thing (the plates un the US made real thing are totally different than the Russian reissues). The tall brown 6SN7WGT is a really great tube.


----------



## vinyllp33

Yes, the Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT is a wonderful sounding tube, very linear and neutral but not sterile in any way.
   
  They are still pretty affordable presently but I think in four to five years things will be much different for many of the tubes of this era.


----------



## Blackmore

I got this one and already tried, very good and meaty sounding tube


----------



## lawrywild

$10 on fleabay, not a bad score. Tests 2000/2800.


----------



## rosgr63

That's a good deal for a Ken-Rad VT 231.
  And a very nice tube enjoy it!
   
  Sometimes you can get very lucky, I just got a pair of beautiful NU Black Glass for under $10.
  It's the exception not the rule nowadays.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote: 





sachu said:


> Regal, I've been meaning to ask you, have you tried any RCA 6CG7 cleartops in your stacker 2?
> 
> What tubes have you found to work best for you?
> 
> ...


 


 Try some RCA or Sylvania 6GU7s for $5 each ..... an absolutely great sounding tube. I had a 6/12 volt switch on my Stacker 2 and I use the 6GU7s at 6.3 volts and the 12FQ7 at 12.6 volts. My Stacker 2 also had alternate octal sockets and I used the identical but much, much less expensive 12SN7. There are 12SN7 TS black glass roundplates, RCA gray glass, Ken Rad black glass,  Sylvania tall bottle VT-231, Hytron tall bottles just like with the 6SN7.
   
   
  If you only have 6.3 volt capability buy some ebay 7N7> 6SN7 tube socket adapters and  use the 7N7/7AF7; which are electrically identical to a 6SN7 except for a loctal base. Note, despite branding as TS, RCA etc.... 99% of all 7/14N7 and are Sylvania tall bottle VT-231s or the nice short bottle Sylvania 6SN7 from around 1952-1955 vintage.
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/Two-adapters-7N7-6SN7-tubes-amplifier-SUB-/250836753654?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a67091cf6 
   
   
http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=7N7 .... notice the 7N7 refers you to 6SN7 specs and the 7AF7 is the preferred substitute for the 7N7 and vise versa. 
   
  The Sylvania 7AF7 is a short bottle loctal tube with 6SN7 electrical properties (except a lower 0.3 amp heater current draw which is a non-issue) which is a drop in substitute for the 7N7 or the 6SN7 with the same 7N7> 6SN7 adapter. 
   
http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=7af7 
   
  If you dont mind a plate cap you can sub the electrically equivalent 6F8G (6SN7 with a plate cap) for the 6SN7 again using an ebay adapter.
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/6F8G-6SN7-Tube-Adapter-pair-/220802665011?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3368dd4a33 
   
  Finally, the 6CG7 is often referred to as a 6SN7 in a 9 pin bottle. You can use a 6CG7> 6SN7 adapter and drop the 6CG7 right in the circuit. I have been using ALL these tube substitues for years without a problem.
   
http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=6GU7  .... notice the 6GU7s preferred substitue is the 6CG7/6FQ7. I use the same 6CG7> 6SN7 adapter for the 6GU7.


----------



## Skylab

Sacd Lover!  Nice to "see" you.


----------



## sacd lover

Hey Sky nice to see your still on the board. I have ventured mostly into speakers so I havent been around for awhile.
   
  I am out of practice, so one more thing, if you use 6SL7s you can substitute the 7F7 (again Sylvania) using the same 7N7> 6SN7 adapter. 7F7s are all of $7 each @ Radio Electric Supply.
   
http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=7f7 
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Sacd Lover!  Nice to "see" you.


----------



## rosgr63

sacd lover thanks for the links and info on the various alternatives!
   
  I have used 6F8Gs with an adapter but have not found any/much improvement over the 6SN7 yet.
  The 6F8G look nice and are cheaper than the equivalent 6SN7 so they're worth considering IMHO.
   
  Please note these are my opinions based on my system.


----------



## sacd lover

The 6F8G is a 6SN7 with a plate cap so they dont sound much different and your opinion makes total sense. But, back when I first started using them there were lots of equivalents to the rare 6SN7 types around for $8. They are still a decent deal especially if you can come up with a cheap adapter .... but not the great deal when I bought them. I must say I had one NU 6F8G that was one of the best tubes I ever used for gain on my old chassis style Singlepower Supra. I still have a bunch of 6F8s packed away upstairs.


----------



## rosgr63

I use one of my SP Extremes to amp test my tubes following the tube tester checks.
   
  The 6F8G are still cheap, but some like the Tung Sol 6F8G Black Glass Round plates are getting very expensive.
  Some users claim that the 6F8G sound much better than the 6SN7 equivalents due to the larger glass envelope, but I have not found any differences so far from my brief tests.
   
  How do the 7N7 sound compared to the 6SN7?


----------



## sacd lover

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I use one of my SP Extremes to amp test my tubes following the tube tester checks.
> 
> The 6F8G are still cheap, but some like the Tung Sol 6F8G Black Glass Round plates are getting very expensive.
> Some users claim that the 6F8G sound much better than the 6SN7 equivalents due to the larger glass envelope, but I have not found any differences so far from my brief tests.
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks sacd lover.
   
  I have successfully used ECC32/ECC33/ECC35 and Tung Sol 6SU7GTY, but never tried a 12AU7 with an adapter.
  I will venture into the tubes you have mentioned if I can find them cheap.


----------



## Denys

Hi,
   
  Anyone heard about the Raytheon 6SN7WGT  tube ? I made a search and couldn't find any review about how they sound....
   
  Thank you
   
  Denys


----------



## rosgr63

Denys are they the same as the Tung Sol 6SN7WGT?
  Any chance for a photo?


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Denys are they the same as the Tung Sol 6SN7WGT?
> Any chance for a photo?


 

 Hi,
   
  This is the best picture I have.... I wonder if it's worth around $80 considering they match..
   
  Thanks for your time
   
  Denys


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





sacd lover said:


> Try some RCA or Sylvania 6GU7s for $5 each ..... an absolutely great sounding tube. I had a 6/12 volt switch on my Stacker 2 and I use the 6GU7s at 6.3 volts and the 12FQ7 at 12.6 volts. My Stacker 2 also had alternate octal sockets and I used the identical but much, much less expensive 12SN7. There are 12SN7 TS black glass roundplates, RCA gray glass, Ken Rad black glass,  Sylvania tall bottle VT-231, Hytron tall bottles just like with the 6SN7.
> 
> 
> If you only have 6.3 volt capability buy some ebay 7N7> 6SN7 tube socket adapters and  use the 7N7/7AF7; which are electrically identical to a 6SN7 except for a loctal base. Note, despite branding as TS, RCA etc.... 99% of all 7/14N7 and are Sylvania tall bottle VT-231s or the nice short bottle Sylvania 6SN7 from around 1952-1955 vintage.
> ...


 

 Speaking of that amp...I have the 12SN7s in it now and I get why this thread exists. Makes for a slightly more musical presentation with the LCD-2s than with my Phoenix while neither being too coloured, yet having a very wide soundstage.  It's weird finally having a tube collection after running with SS gear for years and being able to join in on the conversation about it.


----------



## rosgr63

I have one Raytheon 6SN7WGT (the middle one), it's not a bad tube, and the price seems to be fair for a nice pair.
  I think mine has black plates not grey.
   
  If you're not in a hurry to secure a sale then please wait for more opinions.


----------



## rosgr63

Currawong you are not turning to a tube addict are you?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





denys said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is the best picture I have.... I wonder if it's worth around $80 considering they match..
> 
> ...


 

 Very good tube, and somewhat underrated.  I think they are definitely worth $80 for a NOS matched pair.


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Very good tube, and somewhat underrated.  I think they are definitely worth $80 for a NOS matched pair.


 

 Thank you guys..... I think I'll take a chance...
   
  Take care
   
  Denys


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think the Raytheons with the ladder plates are a great tube too.  Sort of the antithesis of the Sylvanias in terms of sweetness of tone from my experience, but the detail and PRaT is first rate.
   
  Also, many thanks to sacdlover for a really great post.  I think I just learned more about tubes in that one minute than I have in the last couple of months.  Lost of rolling possibilities there.


----------



## Happy Camper

sacd lover said:


> Hey Sky nice to see your still on the board. I have ventured mostly into speakers so I havent been around for awhile.
> 
> I am out of practice, so one more thing, if you use 6SL7s you can substitute the 7F7 (again Sylvania) using the same 7N7> 6SN7 adapter. 7F7s are all of $7 each @ Radio Electric Supply.
> 
> http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=7f7




You have been sorely missed and warmly welcomed back oh guru of the glass.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Currawong you are not turning to a tube addict are you?


 

 It wouldn't be hard for me to. sacd_lover gave me a very satisfying entry-level collection with the Stacker which I've been rotating through. I might pick up some Sylvania 12SN7s from ebay though, as they are reasonably priced.  I'm going to try these 12FQ7 Sylvanias that came with it too, though the Jan-Chy Hytrons sound great to me with the LCD-2s, though possibly had a bit of harshness in the treble.


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]Nice to see you around *sacd lover*[/size]
   
  Out of topic, sorry guys

[size=10pt]Just wonder how it was, stepping out of hp's and into the speakers, cos I am thinking of the same, but what's your experience, any advise that I can use please?[/size]
   
[size=10pt]THX[/size]
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *sacd lover*
> 
> 
> I have ventured mostly into speakers so I havent been around for awhile.
> ...


----------



## Skylab

Currawong I am not sure how often you get to Tokyo, but there is a great little tube vendor in Akihabara who sells some awesome NOS tubes at pretty decent prices. I visit him every chance I get.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Currawong I am not sure how often you get to Tokyo, but there is a great little tube vendor in Akihabara who sells some awesome NOS tubes at pretty decent prices. I visit him every chance I get.


 

 That's something I'll have to look out for next time I'm there. Is it near the station in the building full of tiny vendors? The local electronic parts store here has quite a few NOS tubes too, but the prices are probably unreasonable.
   
  I've started a thread, btw, for the October meet. I need to start thinking about what we want to do for it.


----------



## rosgr63

Does anybody know who is the valve maker or supplier with the initials S.E.S.?
   
  I was told they might be French but I cannot verify this.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Skylab

currawong said:


> That's something I'll have to look out for next time I'm there. Is it near the station in the building full of tiny vendors? The local electronic parts store here has quite a few NOS tubes too, but the prices are probably unreasonable.
> 
> I've started a thread, btw, for the October meet. I need to start thinking about what we want to do for it.



Yep that is exactly where it is. Man it's good I live in the other side of the world from that vendor area, or I would be broke for sure!

I will check out the meet thread


----------



## Currawong

I found a pair of Sovtek 6SN7s at the store for $80 (pic below). They are quite microphonic unfortunately, but reasonably smooth compared to the more harsh-sounding Jan Chys, though those might have nicer bass. The little Sylvania 12FQ7s might be the best compromise here without me going nuts.


----------



## rosgr63

Are they re issues?
   
  If you like the 6H8C type of sound it's worth trying the Saratov 6H8C 60's issue for about $10 each.


----------



## Skylab

You can buy brand new Sovtek 6SN7's for $15 each. I'm not sure why your pair was so expensive. 

I agree with Stavros the 60's Russian 6H8C (which is the Russian 6SN7) are pretty decent, and cheap as dirt. 

Of you want smooth, try to find a pair of RCA grey-glass 6SN7GT's. Good sounding, smooth as silk, and at least not crazy expensive like the TS BGRP.


----------



## dminches

Here is a pair - http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1315404913&/RCA-6sn7gt-1950-smoked-glass-B


----------



## rosgr63

Couldn't agree more.
  Can't go wrong with the "King Tube" for sure.
  It's a nice tube to "fall back" to.


----------



## Wedge

Most of the RCA's are pretty smooth, but the grey glass seemed to have more dynamics than some of the cheaper ones.  I also liked the RCA 5692 Red Base.


----------



## rosgr63

A quick question are the 12AZ7 and 12AZ7A equivalent?
  I know the 12AZ7 has a 300V max plate voltage and the 12AZ7A a 330V max plate voltage, so to me it looks as though I could use a 12AZ7A instead of a 12AZ7.
  Would you agree?


----------



## dminches

I like the red base a lot too.  They aren't as detailed at some of the others I have used in my Modwright transporter (Sylvania metal base, TS BGRPs), but are still very nice.  And cheaper.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> A quick question are the 12AZ7 and 12AZ7A equivalent?
> I know the 12AZ7 has a 300V max plate voltage and the 12AZ7A a 330V max plate voltage, so to me it looks as though I could use a 12AZ7A instead of a 12AZ7.
> Would you agree?


 

 Definitely.  All of the 12A_7 tubes had "A" versions later.  A was supposed to simply mean "Improved".  Sometimes I think they made small changes to the specs like that just to prove they actually improved something...


----------



## sacd lover

I love headphones but I love speakers even more. There are so many more good speaker and tube amp choices to choose from. Diy choices for speakers and tube amps abound and are often less expensive .... to much less expensive!. 

  
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> [size=10pt]Nice to see you around *sacd lover*[/size]
> 
> Out of topic, sorry guys
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Skylab.
   
  sacd lover I could not agree more, some of the speaker based tube amps are fantastic.
   
  Would you agree that I can use the 12AZ7A with the 12AT7 => 6SN7 adapter safely with the SinglePower Extreme?


----------



## rosgr63

sacd lover can you post pics of some nice DIY amps please?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sacd lover said:


> I love headphones but I love speakers even more. There are so many more good speaker and tube amp choices to choose from. Diy choices for speakers and tube amps abound and are often less expensive .... to much less expensive!.


 

 Same here.  As my kids have grown, I have been gravitating back to speaker listening more often.


----------



## Cobra Jesse

Recently I replaced my Woo Audio's 4 GE 6SN7 with 4 Sophia's 6SN7.
  The improvement is rather huge.
  Although whether it justified the extra several hundred dollars for Sophia, it's a personal judgement.
  Cheers!


----------



## dminches

I feel speakers are more likely to give me a full body experience as compared to headphones.  Some music requires one to feel the bass thump in their chest.


----------



## sacd lover

Yes the 12AZ7/12AZ7A will work well.
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Thanks Skylab.
> 
> sacd lover I could not agree more, some of the speaker based tube amps are fantastic.
> 
> Would you agree that I can use the 12AZ7A with the 12AT7 => 6SN7 adapter safely with the SinglePower Extreme?


----------



## sacd lover

Ok .... here you go .... all the pics I currently have of DIY amps or headamps. Notice how inexpensive these big power amps are vs most of the cost of commercial headamps. Again DIY headamps like the Millets are very good for cheap!
   
   
  ST35 Clone Power amp $325
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/1305910326.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/1305910325.jpg
   
  KT88SE Integrated amp $550 but shipping was $110!!
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/Dads20camera20231.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/Dads20camera20229.jpg
   
  Audio Note 5687 Clone Preamp $375
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/photo17.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/photo18.jpg
   
  LM3875 Cutom Integrated amp $375
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/LM3875front.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/Chipampinternal.jpg
   
  Custom LM3886 150 watt Power amp $775
   http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/lm3886x3and300BDX004.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/lm3886x3and300BDX0022.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/lm3886x3003.jpg
   
  DIY 6V6 x 8 Power amp $450
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/093.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/095-1.jpg
   
  11BM8 push/pull 8watt Integated $325
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/Picture0040-1.jpg 
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/Picture0043.jpg
   
  DIY 6BQ5 push/pull 17 watt Power amp $550
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/081.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/080.jpg
   
  DIY 807 SE 4 watt Integrated amp $350
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/079.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/078.jpg
   
  Stacker 2 Hybrid Headamp $800 ..... Currawong owns this one now.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/076.jpg
   
  DIY 1626 0.75 watt Integrated amp $200
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/066.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/067.jpg
   
   DIY Heamp Gallery. I sold most of these and bought some of the speaker amps above.
  These inexpensive Hybrids are really good!
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/048.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/049.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/050.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/051.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/052.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/053.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/054.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/6bx7gt/055.jpg 
   
  For Currawong .... $80 for Russian 6SN7s? I have every good 6SN7 in the 12 volt version. You can use the 6CG7-6FQ7/6GU7/12FQ7 in your Stacker2. If you want some good stuff for definitely less money let me know. If you want to invest in a couple ebay 7N7> 6SN7 adapters I have a bunch of 7/14N7s. You can use this adapter at 6.3 or 12.6 volts since you can switch the filament voltage on the Stacker2..
   
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> sacd lover can you post pics of some nice DIY amps please?


----------



## rosgr63

Earl, these are fantastic!
   
  I think you have missed out the zeroes form your prices, am I reading right?


----------



## kiertijai

Hi dear 6SN7 friends,
     I am Kiertijai from Thailand.   I will have the new Balancing Act from Craig probably by next week.
  Stavros has recommended several  6SN7's to try.   I was also recommended by Thai friend that the
  Russian 1578 6N8S 6SN7  is a best buy set.  From what I read from Brent Jessee website suggests
  that it should have the letter 1578 on the glass.  I have found one set and here is the link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140538111268&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT 
  However another seller of the same items (which the price is higher) also said that those of his are from 1950's
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200625468072&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT 
  the second seller said that   the first one :Tubes not faked, but 1578 stamp FAKE. Only 6N8S with apertures
  in anode can have 1578 stamp 
  I also found one in yahoo.co.jp but there is not so much information , here is the pictures of those from Japan  (both pictures in this page)
  which one should I look for?


----------



## kiertijai

Here is the picture of the Russian 1578 which another seller claims that the number 1578 is fake but the tube is real
   
   
  Here is another picture of the seller who claims that his pair is real
   
  Which one should I buy : Japanese pairs,   Melz Pair or the another one?


----------



## rosgr63

Kiertijai the ones with the perforated plates are the real 1578.
  Some may or may not have the 1578 etching on the glass.
  The ones made by the Melz factory are very good.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Stavros,
     Thanks for the info.   I will purchase the quad from Melz.


----------



## Currawong

I knew that they'd be overpriced. Anything like this in Japan, especially in a store in an inner-city location is going to be overpriced.  Neutrik jacks here are $5-10 each, so I knew it would be a bit of a silly purchase, BUT, considering eBay or Audiogon prices + the stupid costs of shipping some places charge, I figured it wouldn't be that much different.


----------



## rosgr63

Currawong I can see the gold label, which means a premium price, so don't feel that bad.


----------



## sacd lover

You are reading the price right ..... no additional zeros. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Earl, these are fantastic!
> 
> I think you have missed out the zeroes form your prices, am I reading right?


----------



## bdh

Kiertijai, just make sure you also get a ECC32 (CV131) to try also.  I like it much better than the Russian 6N8S in my Balancing Act.


----------



## rosgr63

It's actually CV181 not CV131.


----------



## tagosaku

Has the NU GT reputation changed recently? Won two auctions recently without any competition on eBay. One was $0.99, the other $0.95 !?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





tagosaku said:


> Has the NU GT reputation changed recently? Won two auctions recently without any competition on eBay. One was $0.99, the other $0.95 !?


 

 Sometimes you just get lucky.  I have scored on EBay like that before, won tubes for $0.99 where I was the only bidder.  Almost felt guilty about it!


----------



## kiertijai

_Kiertijai, just make sure you also get a ECC32 (CV131) to try also.  I like it much better than the Russian 6N8S in my Balancing Act._
  Thanks for the suggestion,   I already got ECC32 (Philips-Miniwatt the same as Mullard) and the
  Tungsol black glass round plate to try.    I also got the WE300B from auction in yahoo.co.jp
  but I am thinking about the 6SN7 to use with it because I heard that it's kinda laid back.  I also
  will get KR PX4 from Craig.


----------



## dminches

Are the tube tester settings for a CV181 the same as for a 6SN7?  I have a B&K 550 and the manual doesn't have settings for either a CV181 or an ECC32.


----------



## Skylab

No - you have to cut the transconductance by 2/3.


----------



## Blackmore

Just received my B65, but I am not sure who made it, Marconi or GEC, any idea guys?


----------



## MacedonianHero

^^ Cool.

I just bought these today...picking them up on the weekend:


http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/648951147-sylvania_6sn7gtb_chrome_tops_pair/


----------



## Wedge

B65s are real sweet, I have one.


----------



## KevinWolff

Does anyone know where I can find a b65?. A general search just turned up an expensive matched pair, and I didn't see them at any of the usual vendors( tubeworld, etc).


----------



## Wedge

B65s are extremely rare, and a lot of times when you do find they are EXPENSIVE.  Tubeworld has some sometimes, but they're usually used.


----------



## KevinWolff

Used is fine too. Ok, I'll keep looking. Thanks.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Just received my B65, but I am not sure who made it, Marconi or GEC, any idea guys?


 
   
  Whatever the brand, they were made by M.O. Valve Co. Ltd., probably in Hammersmith.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





tagosaku said:


> Has the NU GT reputation changed recently? Won two auctions recently without any competition on eBay. One was $0.99, the other $0.95 !?


 

 Funny you should mention that as I just switched to the Nu's that sacd_lover included and they are great. A buck per tube sounds like incredible value to me.


----------



## Skylab

I've never heard a B65. I would like to, but I've heard often that it is light on bass, and given the cost, I have been afraid to try it. What do you guys think about the bass in the B65?


----------



## Wedge

In terms of amount, and in the amps that I use, its really not much less than the ECC32s, if any.


----------



## rosgr63

Oskari do you know who was the tube maker/re brander called S.E.S.?


----------



## Oskari

I have no idea.


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]Its simply deeper and doesn’t feel that punchy than say from KEN RAD or NU, both Black coated glass or GE5962 Brown base, however with my fully open K1000 was more than enough to feel it and I think because of best mids up there, it sound so beautiful and musical, without loosing of truly high end part, but than again, its not punchy and feels, at least to me, bit on the delicate side. [/size]
   
  [size=10pt]So, if you mean that, yes, bass isnt the strongest part, especially in that price range[/size]
[size=10pt]http://www.tejastubes.com/NOSMarconiOsramB65MetalBase.htm[/size]
   
   
   
   

  
       Quote:


skylab said:


> I've never heard a B65. I would like to, but I've heard often that it is light on bass, and given the cost, I have been afraid to try it. What do you guys think about the bass in the B65?


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I've never heard a B65. I would like to, but I've heard often that it is light on bass, and given the cost, I have been afraid to try it. What do you guys think about the bass in the B65?


 


  It's not bass-heavy, but it's not really bass-light either.  With HPs (or speakers) that need help in the bass, it wouldn't be my first choice (despite amazing qualities in the mids), but for HPs that don't need help in the bass (LCD-2s, etc) it's perhaps the best 6SN7 of all time.  But the cost is now horrendous, and - anecdotally, for me at least - the durability hasn't been outstanding.  Your call - but if it means anything, I'm not going to buy any more.  There are half a dozen alternatives at sane prices that get within 95% of the audio quality and last longer.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> [size=10pt]Its simply deeper and doesn’t feel that punchy than say from KEN RAD or NU, both Black coated glass or GE5962 Brown base, however with my fully open K1000 was more than enough to feel it and I think because of best mids up there, it sound so beautiful and musical, without loosing of truly high end part, but than again, its not punchy and feels, at least to me, bit on the delicate side. [/size]
> 
> [size=10pt]So, if you mean that, yes, bass isnt the strongest part, especially in that price range[/size]
> [size=10pt]http://www.tejastubes.com/NOSMarconiOsramB65MetalBase.htm[/size]
> ...


 


   
   I have always considered tjeastubes.com over priced.....


----------



## kiertijai

_Does anyone know where I can find a b65?. A general search just turned up an expensive matched pair, and I didn't see them at any of the usual vendors( tubeworld, etc).  _
   
  I won two B65's last two month on ebay but the price is very high but they are almost new.  I have been looking
  for them quite often and they came not on the B65 search because they were QB65 (premium one)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190543981183&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190539311304&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT 
   
  However I took a gamble on this one, I don't know whether they are real or not (it does not seem like) but
  they are quite cheap.  Could any one tell me that they are real or not?  If one of them is real I will be happy
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300567947450&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


----------



## kiertijai

Here is the picture of the more expensive but very good one QB65


----------



## rosgr63

And another one here.
   
  Kiertijai, these have wire getters not inverted cap getters


----------



## Blackmore

I agree, by me already mentioned GE5962 is a very British sounding and I bought my for USD100 shipped NOS, not only it was cheaper than NOS RCA Red base, but also, at least to my ears, better sounding to, however B65 is B65
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





innerspace said:


> There are half a dozen alternatives at sane prices that get within 95% of the audio quality and last ????


----------



## kiertijai

_Kiertijai, these have wire getters not inverted cap getters  _
   
  So are they real one? especially the brown base
   SoS so


----------



## rosgr63

Dear Kiertijai, Roberto is not selling fakes, don't worry they are very good!
   
  I have tubes that cost a lot less than a B65 or a Q65 and sound better to me in my equipment.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Stavros, please recommend more
  because my 300B BA has been shipped.


----------



## rosgr63

Kiertijai these are exciting news.
   
  Don 't forget to read this thread first:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/497049/balancing-act-tube-rolling
   
  Meantime I am sure you have plenty toys for your BA.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Stavros,   thanks for that  I will read it a couple of times more before I start using the new BA.
  BTW I think Craig has used adjustable socket for the new amplifier but I am not sure that it will accept
  the PX25.  I can't remember exactly but he said something about the UX4 base and UB4 base , however I will ask him again when the amplifier arrive.
  I saw some Fivre 6SN7's in Yahoo.co.jp last week, there were two pairs : one with brown base and another one is black base.  the price are the same around 8000-8500 Yen (around 100-110$)  What is the difference between the brown base and the black base?


----------



## rosgr63

Hello Kiertijai,
  The new BA has a combo socket that can accept either the old type PX4 tubes fitted with a UB4 base or the new style PX4 fitted with a UX4 base.
  The 300B tubes come with the UX4 base only.
   
  Both black and brown base FIVRE are very nice tubes.
  The brown base has the same characteristics as the ECC33.
  There is a large variety with bottom, side getters, and release years that I have lost count.
  Each has it's own sound signature, the only way to find out is to try different ones until you find the one you like best.


----------



## ISALULA

Hello,
   
   
  I didn't know this version, what is the sonic difference versus "classical" B65 ?
   
   
  Thanks

  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> Here is the picture of the more expensive but very good one QB65


----------



## rosgr63

I would say my Q65 sounds just a little bit less musical than my B65's.
  It's like the difference between a copper and a steel grid post version of the same tube.
  These are my initial impressions. It's only been assessed very briefly less than an hour which is very little for a NIB tube.


----------



## KingStyles

I asked craig about the px-25 a couple of days ago. He hasnt tested or tried them yet. He thinks they will work, but he dosent know what biasing option would have to be used. You could buy a set and have them tested.
   
  I didnt like the b65 witht the px4. The highs were too tipped up and the bass to weal, but the midrange was very nice.


----------



## rosgr63

I use my Single Power Extreme for my evaluation.
  I never tried the Q65/B65 on the BA so I am more than happy with KingStyles' evaluation.


----------



## ISALULA

Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am intrigued about the Mullard ECC32. I tried several tubes 6SN7 (Sylvania, CBS Hytron, RCA, Ken-Rad) I like very much the Brimar 6SN7GTY CV1988 brown base in terms of sonority with my SP. It's often my first choice except on Classical Music (B65 is a bit deeper, airy and wider)

 I would like to find the sonority of Brimar and the soundstage of Marconi. This Mullard could be a right choice ?

 Opinions, advices, feedbacks are welcome.
   
  Thanks by advance

  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I would say my Q65 sounds just a little bit less musical than my B65's.
> It's like the difference between a copper and a steel grid post version of the same tube.
> These are my initial impressions. It's only been assessed very briefly less than an hour which is very little for a NIB tube.


----------



## rosgr63

I love the ECC32s with both my BA and SP.
   
  ISALULA please note the ECC32 is NOT a drop in replacement for the 6SN7.
   
  Must check with a tech before you use it with your SP the higher current draw can damage your transformer.
   
  For me the Q65/B65 is more of a tube addict's collector item rather than the ultimate audio tube.


----------



## kiertijai

Is GEC B63 similar to Marconi B65?   like  6SN7 vs 6F8G  which can be used
  with adapter. Is the sound signature the same as B65 ?  more like a collector than the high
  audio one?


----------



## rosgr63

Kiertijai do you mean B36?
   
  This is a 12V version.


----------



## Oskari

And the B63 = 6A6 ≈ 6N7G (different base). This tube design has a common cathode and is not suitable as a 6SN7GT replacement.


----------



## kiertijai

adapter 6SN7 CV181 TUBE6SN7 CV181 TUBE  SorrySorry I made a mistake , It is not B36 or B63   , It is BL63 
  [size=medium]BL13 MATCHED 1 PAIR GEC/MARCONI BL63+ adapter upgrade 6SN7 CV181 TUBES[/size]
  [size=medium]The pin out same 6F8G so they are for 6F8G directly [/size]
Big plate and size/double prop/grey glass
Rara and better than the GEC B65 and CV181
  [size=medium][size=medium]The gain is 12 less than 6SN7*[size=medium].[/size]*[/size][/size]
  [size=medium]The classic envelope is 42 mm in diameter and, excluding the IO base pins, is 113 mm tall [/size]
   
   
  [size=medium]Here is the link for this one[/size]
  [size=medium]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260817859382&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT [/size]
   
   
   
  [size=medium]There is another set of intriguing 300B using the famous name of GEC[/size]
  [size=medium]MATCHED 1 PAIR NOS GEC UV19 UU4 TUBES FOR 300B [/size]
  [size=medium]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260814627883&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT [/size]
   
  [size=medium]The seller has 99.8% rating with more than 1000 items[/size]
  [size=medium][/size]


----------



## ISALULA

Totaly agree with you, the ECC32 is not the 6SN7, they are not same specifications. I knew it, however thank you very much for your warning about this aspect.

 In my humble opinion, B65 is an excelent tube, among the best but not a kind of ultimate tube. It doesn't exist, like the ultimate Headphone or Headphone amplifier.

 Thanks again for your answers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I love the ECC32s with both my BA and SP.
> 
> ISALULA please note the ECC32 is NOT a drop in replacement for the 6SN7.
> 
> ...


----------



## Oskari

kiertijai said:


> SorrySorry I made a mistake , It is not B36 or B63   , It is BL63
> –– 6F8G ––


 
   
  Well, here is some data for both: BL63, 6F8G. BL63's heaters draw 1.27 A, for starters.
   


kiertijai said:


> There is another set of intriguing 300B using the famous name of GEC
> MATCHED 1 PAIR NOS GEC UV19 UU4 TUBES FOR 300B


 
   
  That's a rectifier type. The "for 300B" is just a bait there.
   
  By the way, everybody, it's QB65, not Q65.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Oskari, yes they are QB65, I assume the Q stands for "Quality"
   
  BTW which are your favorite 5 6SN7 including ECC32/ECC33?


----------



## Oskari

rosgr63 said:


> BTW which are your favorite 5 6SN7 including ECC32/ECC33?


 
   
  I'm reluctant to say anything because I haven't heard too many of them. I'm happy enough with Mullard (nee British Tungsram) 6SN7GTs and NU 6F8Gs. My only problem with them is microphony.


----------



## kiertijai

_Well, here is some data for both: BL63, 6F8G. BL63's heaters draw 1.27 A, for starters_
  thanks for the info and also for the rectifier info.
  So we can use that with the 6sn7 with adapter.  I saw the ad of adapter, the more expensive one is with golden pin do we really need that.  and also the tube dampers?  or it depends on the tube that we use (about the dampers)
  I recently talked to Craig and he confirmed that we can use ECC32, 33, 34, with the BA even it was not designed for that.  However he suggested me some 6F8g's that he likes with the BA that included
  GE, Raytheon, Arcturus VT99.    However I don't know Arcturus and the VT99 is difficult to find.


----------



## kiertijai

During the search of 68fG (not purchasing yet) just to know the market price and value of the tubes.  I came across several that  (some 6SN7, 6F8G)
  I don't know what it is and would like some help here.
   
  The Adzam 6SN7GT (I think it's Mazda spelling backwards)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260816039695&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT
   
  The Syltone Brimar 6SN7GT
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110676083876&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT
   
  The Cunningham 6F8G
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200606282456&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT
   
  The Sylvania 6F8G
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230569253322&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT
   
  I found only one used Arcturus 6SN7 GT (not VT99)
  but it's a good price so I get one for 4.5$, is it OK
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270780911256&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
   
_Thanks in advance for the inputs from every one , that will help me a lot who is beginning to learn about the rolling.  I will try one at a time and not in a hurry _.


----------



## rosgr63

You can't get wrong with any of the above.
   
  However the price of the Syltone is crazy, unless it's for your collection.
   
  You can get similar Brimar tubes for a lot less.


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]Nice tubes indeed, but like rosgr63 mentioned, you can do way better regarding Brimar or any other, let crazy folks pay these crazy prices[/size]
  [size=10pt] [/size]
  [size=10pt]I am sure, at least if you are in this hobby for a while, that we all have nice batch of tubes to enjoy, so, that's what we should do in the first place. This will give us more time to think over what ever you want to pay for some valves or not, but also take more time to search for more sweetable deals, that's what I do and I like it that way.[/size]
  [size=10pt]Last one I got was B65 and I am glad I didn't paid what they are usually go for, cos like already been said, there are some good and cheaper alternatives around.[/size]


----------



## kiertijai

_You can't get wrong with any of the above._
   
_However the price of the Syltone is crazy, unless it's for your collection._
   
_You can get similar Brimar tubes for a lot less_ 
   
_[size=10pt]Nice tubes indeed, but like rosgr63 mentioned, you can do way better regarding Brimar or any other, let crazy folks pay these crazy prices [/size]_
   
  Thanks so much I think the price on Syltone Brimar is crazy too , I won't get into those I may be looking for Brimar later.
  How's about the price of BL63 for 369$, is it too high?


----------



## rosgr63

As Oskari mentioned the BL63 draw different current.
  Ask Craig first to make sure you don't damage your BA.


----------



## Blackmore

BL63 are already sold, was it you who bought it? Personally, I think its to much of a risk to buy them at such price without knowing how are they sound like.
  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> _You can't get wrong with any of the above._
> 
> _However the price of the Syltone is crazy, unless it's for your collection._
> 
> ...


----------



## bdh

Looking at kiertijai's rise on head-fi during the past year, I don't think he's hurting for money.


----------



## kiertijai

_Looking at kiertijai's rise on head-fi during the past year, I don't think he's hurting for money.  _ 
   
  That is not true .   I did purchase that pair and I hope to use it with the new electrostatic
  amplifier that was designed by Craig.  It will use 2 pairs of 300B or PX4 and 4 6SN7's.  I cannot get a
  quad of QB65 and it will take 3000$ to do that.   So I think the best shot is to get the BL63  
  Here is the seller 's response
   
_We sold many BL63+adapter=6SN7
  Its ok for almost amplfier like 5692
 But they are best.
 B13 is our stcok number,Thank you  _
   
  Craig has also responded that it uses the low gain so it won't hurt the BA or the Electra (new electrostatic amplifier)


----------



## Blackmore

Do I get this right, any amp that uses 6SN7 can use these BL63, but then with some adapter?

  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> _Looking at kiertijai's rise on head-fi during the past year, I don't think he's hurting for money.  _
> 
> That is not true .   I did purchase that pair and I hope to use it with the new electrostatic
> amplifier that was designed by Craig.  It will use 2 pairs of 300B or PX4 and 4 6SN7's.  I cannot get a
> ...


----------



## kiertijai

According to the seller and Craig: the answer is yes


----------



## sacd lover

With double the heater current draw .... no. A lot of amps that use 6SN7s will not support the extra heater current draw.
   
  Just a suggestion, if you are going to use a lower mu, 6SN7 pin out tube with double the heater current draw .... why not investigate an inexpensive 6BL7GTA or 6BX7GT. I used these in my Singlepowers for output tubes, no adapter needed .... and they sound very good with tons of current drive. The BL63 looks to be much more similar to a 6BL7GT/A than a 6SN7. The 6BL7GT/A- 6BX7GT dont seem to be microphonic and they did work for input duty in a Supra but the gain is on the low side; but no different than the BL63. I remember the 6BX7GT to be very open and airy as an input tube. Ask Craig about this one though as the heater current draw is 1.5 amps vs 1.27 amps.
   
http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=6BL7gta 
  
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Do I get this right, any amp that uses 6SN7 can use these BL63, but then with some adapter?


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks for the info. Here are the voltage spec of my Cary 300SEI amp ( no Singlepower or BA, sorry guys ), regarding 6SN7
   


 >> Input tube 6SN7
 >> Pin 130V
 >> Pin 3, 3V
 >>
 >> 2nd 6SN7 ( 2X in driver position )
 >> Plate pin 2 and pin 4, 278V
 >> Plate pin 5, B+2 580V
 >> Pin 6, 290V
 >> Pin 3, 12v
 >>
   
   
   


  
  Quote: 





sacd lover said:


> With double the heater current draw .... no. A lot of amps that use 6SN7s will not support the extra heater current draw.
> 
> Just a suggestion, if you are going to use a lower mu, 6SN7 pin out tube with double the heater current draw .... why not investigate an inexpensive 6BL7GTA or 6BX7GT. I used these in my Singlepowers for output tubes, no adapter needed .... and they sound very good with tons of current drive. The BL63 looks to be much more similar to a 6BL7GT/A than a 6SN7. The 6BL7GT/A- 6BX7GT dont seem to be microphonic and they did work for input duty in a Supra but the gain is on the low side; but no different than the BL63. I remember the 6BX7GT to be very open and airy as an input tube. Ask Craig about this one though as the heater current draw is 1.5 amps vs 1.27 amps.
> 
> http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=6BL7gta


----------



## Skylab

Hi Sergei,

None of that information will help determine whether you could use a tube like the BL63, or the 6BL7 (which I agree with Earl is a nice sounding and very cheap tube). You would need to know the total current draw on the power transformer, and whether it has enough headroom to accommodate the additional current draw those tubes require versus a 6SN7. 

When I had my SinglePower Extreme rebuilt, I put in an ElectraPrint transformer that had more than enough current delivery capacity to support the ECC32. Cary also told me that my SLP-05 preamp has enough headroom to allow the ECC32 as well. But it only has 50% more current draw than a 6SN7 - not double!


----------



## Blackmore

Thx Rob, here what I got from Cary when I asked them if I can use ECC32
   
*> The answer is probably not because
 >
 > *  ECC32 Filament Current .95 Amp versus .6 Amp for the 6SN7GTB
 > *  ECC32 Mu (Amplification Factor) of 32 versus 20 for the 6SN7GTB
 > *  ECC32 Plate Voltage is 300V MAX versus 450V MAX for the 6SN7GTB
 >
 > The ECC32 behaves more like a 6SL7 but point 1 and 3 suggest a major
 > design change in the amp.*
  
  Like you and Cary said, probably can be upgraded, but it will take a lot of changes, which, I think, are not cheap, so, I lefted the whole idea behind, no probs here.
   
  THX

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Hi Sergei,
> 
> None of that information will help determine whether you could use a tube like the BL63, or the 6BL7 (which I agree with Earl is a nice sounding and very cheap tube). You would need to know the total current draw on the power transformer, and whether it has enough headroom to accommodate the additional current draw those tubes require versus a 6SN7.
> 
> When I had my SinglePower Extreme rebuilt, I put in an ElectraPrint transformer that had more than enough current delivery capacity to support the ECC32. Cary also told me that my SLP-05 preamp has enough headroom to allow the ECC32 as well. But it only has 50% more current draw than a 6SN7 - not double!


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Sacd lover, Blackmore, skylab
  Thanks for the input,  I think I learned a lot here.  However I think if
  I do not try to do think unconventionally we may not improve in our knowledge and experience.
  I have reasked Craig again on BL63 and he is figuring out how to do that or it can be used or not again carefully but allow him some times.   But he did said to me that he still confirmed that 6SL7 can be used with the BA even it was not designed for them as well as the ECC32, ECC33, ECC34 and ECC35 but for more exotic tube he may need some times.


----------



## kiertijai

Craig has reponded,  I hope he doesn't mind because it will be a learning for some of us too especially for myself. He said
   
_My mistake, I thought all 6SN7 tubes were close in characteristics, that’s why they were like 6SN7 tubes. I was led to believe because this tube was like a 6SN7 except it had less gain there would be no problem using it. The ECC32 has the highest heater current I have ever seen for a 6SN7 type, and it will work. I had no idea the BL63 would be 3X the heater current. This is not like a 6SN7 at all, it is completely different. I have said from the beginning the BA was designed to except the 6SN7, I can’t, possibly look up every tube that someone might want to use in place of the tube the amplifier was designed to use. The BL63 is not in any of my five tube manuals, who finds these things anyway? If you can’t get a refund we can do an amp later based around the BL63. If you choose not to go that route, I am sure just saving the tubes in a safe place will increase their value over time and you can sell them for a profit later._
   
_Tube primer:_
   
_A vacuum tube is like a water facet. The water tank sits somewhere away from the house. The water pressure, and volume is controlled by the faucet valve. If the weather is extremely cold the water will freeze, and not flow through the pipes. In a vacuum tube the faucet valve is the grid, and the water supply is the B+, or high voltage on the tubes plate. The water is electron flow through wires. To get the tube to work as a valve requires electrons flowing inside the vacuum. When the tube is cold there are no free electrons so nothing happens. To get the electrons to appear requires heat. The tube heater takes voltage, and current to get the process going. Think of the heater as a small light bulb. A 15 watt light bulb will put off less heat than say a 100 watt light bulb. Power, or watts is a function of the current multiplied by the voltage. So a 15 watt light bulb running on 120 volts would draw 125mA, 0.125 amps. A 15 watt light bulb designed to run on 220 volts would draw 0.068 amps. The 6SN7 tube runs on 6.3 volts with a heater current of 0.6 amps or 3.78 watts. A very small amount of heat, but enough to get the electrons flowing, melt the ice so to speak. The BL63 runs on 6.3 volts, and the heater current is 1.5 amps, or 9.45 watts. This is a large amount of heat for a small tube, and the BA was not designed to provide that much heater power. In the case of the big power triodes like the PX4, or 300B they have different heater voltage, and current. Both the Electra, and BA have adjustable heater voltage, and the heater current in the power supply was designed to run the PX4, or 300B tubes_
   
       I chose the safe side because I am not a true collector although I purchased some tubes to get more experience.  I asked Shen and explained to him about the situation and he kindly cancelled the transaction and refunded the money.   I hope when we can think clearly what to do with them I will definitely purchase one more time , Shen has said that it is one of the best.


----------



## kiertijai

_why not investigate an inexpensive 6BL7GTA or 6BX7GT. I used these in my Singlepowers for output tubes, no adapter needed .... and they sound very good with tons of current drive. The BL63 looks to be much more similar to a 6BL7GT/A than a 6SN7. The 6BL7GT/A- 6BX7GT dont seem to be microphonic and they did work for input duty in a Supra but the gain is on the low side; but no different than the BL63. I remember the 6BX7GT to be very open and airy as an input tube. Ask Craig about this one though as the heater current draw is 1.5 amps vs 1.27 amps._ 
   
  I don't think these are the other options for the BA too, am I correct? because they will draw more heater current
  Can we modify the circuit to do this, is there any reason why not?


----------



## Blackmore

I read, mostly DIY forums, that some folks think/find 300B valve as one of the worse up there. Other confirm and say that there are some very cheap and unknown alternatives that do the job better.
  What I am trying to say, maybe these _6BL7GTA or 6BX7GT_  will be better for some DIY project, which will not cost much, but will deliver some quality sound, just a thought.


----------



## sacd lover

Given Craigs response the 6BL7GT/A and 6BX7GT are NOT options.


----------



## rosgr63

sacd lover, can the 6BL7GT be used as power tubes instead of the 6AS7G in a Single Power Extreme without any mods?


----------



## Skylab

Hi Stavros,
   
  The 6AS7G has a gain of 2.  The 6BL7GT has a gain of 15.  And it has like 8 times the plate resistance.  I don't think it's a good idea...the 6BL7GT draws less heater current, so it won't burn up the power transformer, but it's nothing close to the 6AS7G in terms of performance.  Only the pin out and the fact that both are 6.3V dual-triodes are the same.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob,
   
  Thanks, it might be safe to use but not really suitable.


----------



## Skylab

I think it could burn up the 6BL7GT's pretty quickly, too.  And I would not mess around where the SinglePower Extreme is concerned


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the advise.
   
  I agree the SP may not be "happy" with different tube types. 
   
  The most I am going to try is a few 12AV7 & 7062 with the 12AV7 => 6SN7 adapter just to see how they drive the 6AS7G's.
   
  Did you ever try these Rob?


----------



## Skylab

I didn't - like you, my friend, I had so many 6SN7's in my collection that I never felt the need to try anything else. I loved the Extreme with the ECC32 and the GEC 6AS7G/A1834. It was a great pairing. But I decided to get rid of the Extreme and get a Woo WA22 which uses the same basic tubes, plus a tube rectifier.


----------



## kiertijai

I am a new learner here and would like to know if I use
  the 1970's original WE 300B in the new BA amplifier,_ which_
_6SN7's or 6F8G should I try first. _  I will also have the AVVT32,PX4
  for other style of music ,for  those I think I will use the Tungsol or ECC32.   I have sent Craig Fivre 6sn7 black base and he is loving it now but the fist time listening is not very good, while the sent Swedish Standard did not perform very well.  
  Finally I decide to make a chance to know more about BL63 (suggested by Craig) so I will send one pair to Craig to try and he will inform me the result and will let you know whether the heater current draw will cause the problem but he will make some modification at the socket to 4.5 V????   Please don't quote me about this yet because I may be totally wrong.
_BTW, What is the sound characteristics of these tubes and what genre of music that are most suitable to them? :  ECC32, ECC33, ECC34 ECC35 , Brimar CV1981/6SN7GTY_,


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


skylab said:


> I didn't - like you, my friend, I had so many 6SN7's in my collection that I never felt the need to try anything else. I loved the Extreme with the ECC32 and the GEC 6AS7G/A1834. It was a great pairing. But I decided to get rid of the Extreme and get a Woo WA22 which uses the same basic tubes, plus a tube rectifier.


 


  Very clever upgrade for sure, I might just do that one day.
  Then again you are so much more experienced and knowledgeable than me, still lots to learn from you.
  Been so much into 6SN7 amp testing I forgot about the GEC A1834 and the Osram 6AS7G!


----------



## Blackmore

Verg good job, thats the way to do, exchange and learn, we are very interesting in results, what ever they are.
   
  AVVT 32BL are pretty neutral with mids and very extended, bass feels and is deeper, I would say this tube is lineair and dont have nothing in common with romantic kind of signature, like you may get from original WE or some Chinese clones, which covering everything, thats why folks really love them, they are, so called, easy listening tubes. From my expirience this tube will blow you mind if you use it with top analoge sounding source and at the high level recoreded music. They are pretty fast to and of course, one of the best in build quality and look.
   
  ECC33 Mullards are very close in their performance to 32BL's, but than with more magic in the mids, but these Brown based beauties ( not short Black base, tall glass ) are top high end tubes, which sometimes give you the feeling of bit to much of a good, if you know what I mean.
   
  As always, my impressions based on my rig only, Cary CAD 300sei +K1000. Also cables and other used equipment will make a huge influence, so, we need more differ opinions to get a total picture.
   
  I also tried my 32BL's on Zanden 7000 300B and they did sound great to me, think were better match than with Cary. And here to, we had K1000, stock and moded, but both equaly perfect sounding at the end.
  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I am a new learner here and would like to know if I use
> the 1970's original WE 300B in the new BA amplifier,_ which_
> _6SN7's or 6F8G should I try first. _  I will also have the AVVT32,PX4
> for other style of music ,for  those I think I will use the Tungsol or ECC32.   I have sent Craig Fivre 6sn7 black base and he is loving it now but the fist time listening is not very good, while the sent Swedish Standard did not perform very well.
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

I agree with Sergei,
   
  The AVVT AV32B sound very good on the BA, don't know why Craig doesn't like them that much.
  Match them with a nice ECC32/ECC33 driver and you'll be very happy.
   
  I don't have any WE300B, waiting for the new production next year.


----------



## rosgr63

[size=medium] I would like to thank sacd lover for his help.[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] Just received my 12AT7 => 6SN7 adapter so I tried my 12AV7 on my Single Power Extreme.[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] They drive the SP Extreme  6AS7G's well. Very nice sound indeed.[/size]


----------



## kiertijai

_AVVT 32BL are pretty neutral with mids and very extended, bass feels and is deeper, I would say this tube is lineair and dont have nothing in common with romantic kind of signature, like you may get from original WE or some Chinese clones, which covering everything, thats why folks really love them, they are, so called, easy listening tubes. From my expirience this tube will blow you mind if you use it with top analoge sounding source and at the high level recoreded music. They are pretty fast to and of course, one of the best in build quality and look._
   
_ECC33 Mullards are very close in their performance to 32BL's, but than with more magic in the mids, but these Brown based beauties ( not short Black base, tall glass ) are top high end tubes, which sometimes give you the feeling of bit to much of a good, if you know what I mean._ 
   
     Dear Blackmore and Stavros, thanks for your comment.  That is part of my plan when I ordered the new BA.  I know PX4 with the Tungsol BGRP should be a very good combination , this has been confirmed by Craig and several members here.   I would definitely go for WE300B because I like the magic mid sound of the tubes and I am lucky enough during the 3 months period I am able to get several with good prices and I plan to use one in the BA with may be ECC32 or Fivre or Swedish Standard or even the Russian 1578 Melz.   Craig has tried Swedish standard but doesn't like it because it is very dry , he prefer more of Fivre but he has not use them with 300B WE but he will have more chance next week.
     He will have the Melz 1578 soon and will have a comment on that.  He said the Telefunken 6SN7GT (like Swedish Standard 33S30B) sounds like RCA 5692 redbase which should be like that because it was designed to be the same but better, but that's not the fact he found.   The other tube that I had in my mind is to be different than the other two, I had to choose between the mesh plate EML vs AVVT 300B (but the AVVT 300B is difficult to find ), so it is EML vs AVVT 32B.  Several Thai uses EML so I think I can borrow those but no one has AVVT , that's the reason why I chose AVVT 32B and now I know ECC33 may be the way to go with it.  I can report more when my BA arrives next week  and i will try the B65 and BL63 if Craig said that we can use the BL63 with the BA after some modification.   
       I have asked one of my friend who is called tube dictionary in Hong Kong, he got the information on *BL 63 he said that BL63 is  the crop of 6SN7 and is better than **the legendary b65 because better resolution in the high *so I am hoping that the BL63 could work in my BA which Craig said that it may be possible, so I have decided to purchase one pair and sent to Craig to try and he can share with us about the BL63 too.


----------



## rosgr63

Dear Kiertijai this is good news.
  You have to be careful with the BL63, that if Craig has to modify the BA to accommodate them you may not be able to use 6SN7.
  I would not go of such a mod in my BA.


----------



## kiertijai

_Dear Kiertijai this is good news._
_You have to be careful with the BL63, that if Craig has to modify the BA to accommodate them you may not be able to use 6SN7._
_I would not go of such a mod in my BA._
     That's my concern too so I asked Craig to check that and he will check with  the 6SN7's that he has  to make
  sure that it's OK to do that with his own BA and when he know how to do  it right he will tell me how to change mine
  if it does work.


----------



## kiertijai

After I sent the BL63 to Craig.
       Craig has tried them and he said that it sounds wonderful.  He has compared BL63 to the Fivre 6SN7, Swedish Standard, Telefunken 6SN7GT,
  Russian 1578 6N8S Melz.   He said that the BL63 is better than those.   I don't know whether he has compared the BL63 to Tungsol black glass round plate or not.
        This was his impression :
   
*I tried the Russian 1578 tubes. One was bad, the other three are fine. They sound very good, similar to the Telefunken, *
*much better than the Swedish Standard, and I would say on par with the Fivre. The BL63 however is Ooh La La.*   
   
_*The BL63 is simply deeper, more natural sounding *_
_*than the best 6SN7 tubes. This is subtle, and there are superb 6SN7’s, but the BL63 is more engaging, intimate*_ 
   
       However the heat dissipation problem is of concern so we  need some modification  for that but it seems to be working , he is also working
  now to see whether such modification will affect the use of other 6SN7's or not but so far I haven't got the answer back from that.  Using the BL63 certainly
  need some modification but not difficult.  This was his findings two to three days ago.
   
_*I have a BA running now with a BL63, and the power supply mod. I will let you know tomorrow if the temperature inside the power supply is at a safe level. *_
_*The Ambient here is 82 degrees, 28 C. After 12 hours I will let the power supply cool down, then run it again with a 6SN7 to see what the inside temperature changed to*_ 
   
_*After 12 hours the room was 23C. The inside of the power supply had stabilized to 53C. The capacitors are rated for 85C. *_
_*I will try again today with a 6SN7 to see if the inside temperature changes much*_ 
   
        This is the preliminary impression , I am asking Craig to post,   if not,  I have asked his permission to post his mails to me for us for consideration
  after his approval and correction of the content.
   
        BTW has any one here tried the B65 : Marconi or MWT  or Fivre with the BA , can the B65 be used ?   any modification needed?


----------



## jamato8

With the heater requirements of the BL63, I would use a whole new transformer. I can't see how one set up for the 6SN7 would handle the extra current draw unless built over spec. It is easy to make a nice heater supply for any current demand you might have and even float the heaters above ground for less possible hum.


----------



## kiertijai

This is what Craig explained to me about the modification.
   
_The original BA uses the Zana Duex power transformer plus a special transformer for the AC power tube heater circuit. Using all know 6SN7 tubes, and 6F8G tubes the 12.5 volt winding on the Zana Deux transformer will work for all 6SN7 tubes. The voltage is much higher than it needs to be, but the heat loss is acceptable. This is with a 6.3 volt .6 amp heater 6SN7 tube. The 12.5 volts AC is rectified, filtered, and applied to a 6.3 volt regulator With a typical load the input voltage is 14 volts DC. The regulator is outputting exactly 6.3 volts DC. This means 14 minus 6.3 times .6 will be the heat dissipated by the heat sink, 4.6 watts.  Now running a 1.5 amp tube on this circuit loads the input voltage down to 12 volts, and the regulator is dissipating 8.6 watts. The temperature rise on the 6SN7 is 37 degrees and 75 degrees on the BL63. The solution is to run the regulator on a lower voltage. The Zana Deux transformer has a 6.3 volt 3 amp unused winding. I tried this and that was my report with hum, no hum, some hum, and so on. If we put the 6.3 volts AC on the regulator circuit, only 4.4 volts comes out the other side, no heat, but the tube sounds horrible. So where do we get 9 volts AC, which is ideal for our regulator circuit driving the BL63. If you know the answer you get an A and can skip the rest of the study guide. A torroid power transformer voltage is simply turns around the doughnut. If we add 8 turns of wire to the 6.3V winding it becomes 9 volts. This can be wound on the outside of the core, the transformer does not care. Now our heat dissipation is 5 watts temperature rise is 60 degrees F. This is hot but usable, a bigger heat sink would help here. The point being you have 6.3 volts DC, and the regulator will drive the BL63 both of your BL63 tubes quiet, as well as all 6SN7. 6F8G tubes with less heat than before, only about 2 watts of heat with the 6SN7_


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> can the B65 be used ?   any modification needed?


 

 The B65 is a 6SN7GT.


----------



## KingStyles

You can use the b65. It has a tipped up treble but really nice mids.


----------



## ricmiclaw

I have ordered a BA and have had numerous communications with Craig about the BL63 issue.  Because misunderstanding this issue can cost someone damage to one of the best amps money can buy and destroy expensive and scarce tubes, I asked Craig to make sure that the following statement is accurate.  I have his permission to post the following here at Head-Fi:
   
   


> [size=small] Those of you who own, are purchasing, or considering the purchase of the Eddie Current Balancing Act (BA) by Craig Uthus are all aware of the desire of some people to use BL63 tubes in place of the 6SN7 and 6F8G tubes for which the BA was designed.  Up to this point, BAs have not been designed to use the BL63 tube.  The BL63 uses a 1.5 amp heater versus the 0.6 amp heater used by 6SN7 and 6F8G tubes.  Craig has designed a modification for the BA that will allow use of the BL63 without affecting its ability to use 6SN7 or 6F8G tubes.  Use of the BL63 tube without this modification can result in early component failure, for which Craig says he will not be responsible.  Craig has informed me and is allowing me to state that this modification will be standard on all BAs beginning with serial number 47.  If you have any questions, contact Craig.[/size]


----------



## kiertijai

Thanks for the info on the B65 and the BA using BL63
  Thanks for giving the info that for the BA to use BL63 need some modification that will be
  standard beginning with the serial number 47


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, who have tried RCA Red's 5692 vs. CBS Brown's 5692 and what are the differences? I just bought a pair of CBS branded and own GE5692, which I compared to RCA Red based and Red's didnt do it for me.
   
  THX


----------



## Skylab

I kinda prefer the CBS. They a not quite as soft as the RCA.


----------



## dminches

Are the GE brown base different than the CBS brown base?


----------



## Skylab

I believe so, yes. The RCA and GE red base 5692 are the same tube regardless of brand. The brown base GE is more of an enigma. But I think it's a different tube, something of it's own. The CBS 5692 is for sure it's own thing. Very nice tubes, too.


----------



## jamato8

Then there is the later yellow base.


----------



## Blackmore

Yellow base? Do you mean Sylvania branded with yellow print on glass?
   

  
  Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> Then there is the later yellow base.


----------



## Blackmore

I hope they dont, at least not much, but will know soon for sure.
   
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> Are the GE brown base different than the CBS brown base?


----------



## Blackmore

Are there huge difference between production years of the same brand, say RCA RED? Reason I ask, because not every RCA I see looks exact the same, also some GE branded have print on base, like my, but others on glass.
   
   
  I bought exact the same CBS as from this link, include original boxes to, where production year is 1960 as well  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/444351/fs-5692-cbs-6sn7-sylvania-matched-pairs


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Are there huge difference between production years of the same brand, say RCA RED? Reason I ask, because not every RCA I see looks exact the same, also some GE branded have print on base, like my, but others on glass.
> I bought exact the same CBS as from this link, include original boxes to, where production year is 1960 as well  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/444351/fs-5692-cbs-6sn7-sylvania-matched-pairs


 
  I don't know if there is a great difference but there is enough that I prefer some to others. In general I like the earlier black plate to the grey plate. For me, the earlier the better on RCA, as in 1950's to very early 60's. Later in 5692 production they started to throw anything into the bottle and called it a 5692.


----------



## Skylab

That's the really important point when buying. There were black-base tubes RCA called 5692 toward the end of their tube production days that were absolutely just renamed 6SN7GTBs.


----------



## ISALULA

Sweet Lord, the ECC32 is a gorgeous tube. I think i became an ECC32 addict. It's now my favorite tube, over the B 65. I tried a black base version, what are the difference between Mullard ECC32 brown and black base, guys please ?


----------



## Skylab

Both the black base and brown base Mullard ECC32's are nice, although I marginally prefer the brown base.


----------



## dminches

Given that ECC32s have a higher current draw than 6SN7s, do Woo owners have to be concerned with this?  There could be a concern with the transformers, right?


----------



## Wedge

Not according to Jack.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Given that ECC32s have a higher current draw than 6SN7s, do Woo owners have to be concerned with this?  There could be a concern with the transformers, right?


 


   
  Check Jack's tube compatibility chart specifically for your amp model. In my case with the WA5-LE there is no probelm. They are totally compatible. Right now I am running a pair of ELM 330B Mesh with a pair of Mullard Brown Base ECC32 and a pair of Brimar 5R4GY Brown Base and it sounds fantastic.


----------



## vinyllp33

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> I don't know if there is a great difference but there is enough that I prefer some to others. In general I like the earlier black plate to the grey plate. For me, the earlier the better on RCA, as in 1950's to very early 60's. Later in 5692 production they started to throw anything into the bottle and called it a 5692.


 
   

  Just scored this sweet NOS pair from March 1950, not my favorite tube by any stretch in the 6SN7 family but they do some interesting things.
   
  I especially like using them when I listen to vintage recordings sourced from 78 rpm and metal parts, they really take the edge off the top without making things sound claustrophobic and are generally very musical overall. 
   
  The construction on this tube is of course quite unique and worth owning just for its historical value; I too find the earlier vintages do sound better. 
   
  What really blows my mind that circa 1955 these cost $8.75 each! 
   
  Adjusted for inflation that is $70 in today's dollars, so even back then they were quite expensive.


----------



## MacedonianHero

I was able to pick up a pair of NOS Westinghouse 6SN7s for a steal...can't wait to give them a try in my WA22.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I've been thinking about trying out a japanese made 6SN7 just to try out something different.  Does anybody here have any positive or negative experiences to share?


----------



## Blackmore

Japanese tubes have good bass, but the rest is less exciting, at least in my system. But there is a difference between the types, which usually branded as Hitachi or ITT, I believe, where one comes with black and another with grey plates and blacks, as the most of the time, were better to my taste, so, I would go for blacks only.


----------



## rosgr63

I recommend the Channel Master 6SN7GTB or the Hitachi 6SN7GTB.
  The CM have gray plates and the Hitachi black ones.
  Not expensive and worth a try.


----------



## mikey8811

What do the Channel Master GTB's sound like?


----------



## ricmiclaw

Quote: 





vinyllp33 said:


> Just scored this sweet NOS pair from March 1950, not my favorite tube by any stretch in the 6SN7 family but they do some interesting things.
> 
> I especially like using them when I listen to vintage recordings sourced from 78 rpm and metal parts, they really take the edge off the top without making things sound claustrophobic and are generally very musical overall.
> 
> ...


 

 There was a time, up to the late 70s or early 80s, when tube testers and hundreds of the most common tubes were in most 7-11s and many grocery stores.  Have a bad TV or radio?  Pull out the tube(s) in question, bring it/them to the store, do the tests and check out with milk, eggs, butter and new tubes.


----------



## vinyllp33

Ah...I was just a kid but I remember those days very well. 
   
  My grandfather would let me test the tubes up front then we would go to down the aisle and make our selections. 
   
  I still can recall those many colorful boxes and various logos; and that the Telefunkens, for instance, were priced more than the average tubes. 
   
  He was very savvy about how the money was spent, "These are only for the vertical oscillator, just get the cheap ones, but grab a couple of those Tele's from up top, they are for my preamp".
   
  Good Times!


----------



## rosgr63

I take it you kept a few!


----------



## 9pintube

Quote: 





ricmiclaw said:


> There was a time, up to the late 70s or early 80s, when tube testers and hundreds of the most common tubes were in most 7-11s and many grocery stores.  Have a bad TV or radio?  Pull out the tube(s) in question, bring it/them to the store, do the tests and check out with milk, eggs, butter and new tubes.


 
  I remember those days well, Drug stores had them also.....
  
   


  Quote: 





vinyllp33 said:


> Just scored this sweet NOS pair from March 1950, not my favorite tube by any stretch in the 6SN7 family but they do some interesting things.
> 
> I especially like using them when I listen to vintage recordings sourced from 78 rpm and metal parts, they really take the edge off the top without making things sound claustrophobic and are generally very musical overall.
> 
> ...


 


  One of my favorite tubes that match up with my Western Electric 300B tubes in my Mid-range mono blocks....and will last forever, **** near....


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I recommend the Channel Master 6SN7GTB or the Hitachi 6SN7GTB.
> The CM have gray plates and the Hitachi black ones.
> Not expensive and worth a try.


 


  I was eying some Hitachis but they went for more than I wanted to pay.  At least more than I wanted to pay to whet curiosity.


----------



## rosgr63

Keep looking they often turn up cheap.
  You can get ITT rebranded Hitachi which are the same.
  Remember black plates are Hitachi, gray are CM.
  Also look out for Raytheon, TRIAD and NEC made in Japan.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I have some Japanese made Raytheons, though they are 6EW7 tubes not 6SN7.  They have a somewhat unique sound to them I must say.


----------



## rosgr63

Any comments about the GE 5692 Black Base?


----------



## Skylab

Stavros, if it is a black-base, then wouldn't it just be a relabeled 6SN7GTB?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob,
   
  They have triple mica, double getters, and 11 supports:

   
  Here is a rebranded RCA 6SN7GTB


----------



## Skylab

Wow, nice.  Never seen that!


----------



## rosgr63

Hope it sounds as good as the CBS Brown Base


----------



## Skylab

It's funny, I have a brown-base CBS tube labeled 6SN7GTB that is 100% identical in construction to their 5692, which I also have a pair of.  Hard to imagine why they would have labeled a 5692 with just the plain 6SN7GTB number, but it was a pleasant find - I bought it a few years ago for $10


----------



## Blackmore

I also have seen GE branded 5692 with print on glass, like the one above, but only with Brown base.


----------



## tdogzthmn

Of the 6SN7-type tubes, which is considered to sound the most neutral?


----------



## Skylab

Personal opinion: the Sylvania VT-231.


----------



## tdogzthmn

Interesting, do you know the history for this tube?  And how it differs from the 5998 which I currently use.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Personal opinion: the Sylvania VT-231.


----------



## Skylab

The 5998 is not at all the same. Are you asking about tubes for your Crack? Because it doesn't use 6SN7's...


----------



## tdogzthmn

My bad, I thought they were in the same family, they still look pretty neat although they cant be used in my Crack.  
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> The 5998 is not at all the same. Are you asking about tubes for your Crack? Because it doesn't use 6SN7's...


----------



## rosgr63

Quote:


skylab said:


> Personal opinion: the Sylvania VT-231.


 


   X2 the king tube is one of the best, safe choise.
  I would add the TS  6SN7GT Mouse Ears.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> X2 the king tube is one of the best, safe choise.
> I would add the TS  6SN7GT Mouse Ears.


 


   I personally did not care for the TS Mouse Ears. I had themand sold them.
  I really like the Sylvania 6SN7WGT Brown Base Top Chrome and the Brimar CV1988.


----------



## rosgr63

That's where personal taste comes into it and why one should try the tubes on his equipment to be sure.
  I like the Moue Ears a lot and also the Sylvania 6SN7W short base.
  That's with my equipment and a pair of worn out ears.
   
  The Mouse Ears come with black plates and gray plates, which ones did you try?
  Also the gray plates come in early and late versions.


----------



## Skylab

Right!  The Sylvania VT-231 is not my favorite 6SN7...but I so think it is among the most neutral sounding.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> That's where personal taste comes into it and why one should try the tubes on his equipment to be sure.
> I like the Moue Ears a lot and also the Sylvania 6SN7W short base.
> That's with my equipment and a pair of worn out ears.
> 
> ...


 


   
   I agree.
  Mine were gray plates but don't know if they were early or late version.


----------



## rosgr63

Jose which of the CV1988 do you like best as there are so many variants?
  I know of at least 5 different types, but have not spent much time with them yet.


----------



## Blackmore

Just got the pair of my CBS 5692 and my first impression, compared to GE 5692, that they do have a lot in common, but GE have a little more body. Both having black plates.
  Both tubes are new and not been used for many hours, where GE have something like 10 hours, if not less than that, so, to say the last I need more time with them.


----------



## skeptic

Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> My bad, I thought they were in the same family, they still look pretty neat although they cant be used in my Crack.


 

 tdog - 6sn7's are actually a potential replacement for the front/input 12au7 tube on the crack.  If you check the BH boards, you will see quite a few folks running them via adapters, while some have actually replaced their 9-pin sockets altogether.


----------



## dminches

Blackmore, are the GEs the red base and the CBS the brown base?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Just got my Westinghouse 6SNGTB Tall Black Plate tubes today and so far they sound great. I would classify them as ever so slightly warmer than neutral, but very clear and spacious sounding.


----------



## Skylab

Peter, I don't think Westinghouse actually made tubes. They were, I believe, only a rebrander. If you feel like it, post some pics and we can look to try to identify them


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Peter, I don't think Westinghouse actually made tubes. They were, I believe, only a rebrander. If you feel like it, post some pics and we can look to try to identify them


 
  Hi Rob:

 Here you go:
   
  http://thetubestore.com/nos6sn7.html


----------



## Skylab

Well, perhaps I'm wrong. The pic on that website shows an EIA code of 337, which when I looked it up is actually Westinghouse. Do yours have a 337 manufacturer code on them, Peter?



> Tubes and CRT's EIA code
> Amperex (USA)  111
> Bendix 125
> DuMont 158
> ...


----------



## MacedonianHero

LoL...very observant Rob. You should be a CSI investigator. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  My tubes do have "337" printed on them.
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well, perhaps I'm wrong. The pic on that website shows an EIA code of 337, which when I looked it up is actually Westinghouse. Do yours have a 337 manufacturer code on them, Peter?
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Blackmore

Both Brown, where CBS have slightly darker color.
  
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> Blackmore, are the GEs the red base and the CBS the brown base?


----------



## rosgr63

Actually  there are two variants of the Westinghouse 6SN7GTB, one with black the other with gray plates, you can see the 337 code on one of them.
  They are both tall glass and sound ever so nice.
   
  Westinghouse 6SN7GTB Black Plates
   

   
  Westinghouse 6SN7GTB Gray Plates


----------



## dminches

If anyone is looking for a pair of the Sylvanias that Skylab was talking about - http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1319034161&/Sylvania-VT231-6SN7-NOS-matche.  Paul is a great tube seller.


----------



## SpudHarris

I am getting out of tubes and still have a pair of TSBGRP's if anyone is interested.....


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, now I have installed CBS 5692 as drivers and to my ears they do better job like this than used as input. By the way, which tube are more under stress, input or driver?
   
  THX


----------



## Skylab

I don't think there is a universal agreement on which impacts the sound more, input or driver.  I always roll the input tube first, though, since it will color what is downstream.


----------



## Blackmore

Well, I have had 2 Fivre as drivers and 1 CBS 5692 as input first and the results were nice, but after I switched them, it become very nice, so, in that case, input does effect more if you switch the same tubes.
   
  THX


----------



## rosgr63

Sergei how is your tube arrangement now?


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]Ha-ha, I still not got the time, to lazy I guess, to reorganize my tube collection. It's not huge at all, but enough to become bit messy, if you can say so. I do get the feeling that my love for UK and Italian made tubes is the strongest, at least in the system I own now, however it was not much differ when I owned any tube amp, Mullards and Brimars were the first and the last choice. There are some exceptions, but only few and I will keep it for my own, cos its still very personal after all.[/size]
   
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Sergei how is your tube arrangement now?


----------



## rosgr63

Very true!
   
  What tubes are you currently using on your amp?
  This was my question really.
   
  As for been organized I am sure you are!
  Never discard any tubes, you never know,  except if they are bad, you know what I mean.


----------



## Blackmore

I really like Tesla's in driving position and Mullard or Brimar as input, but now, its Fivre as drivers and Brimar CV1988 as input. Need more of CV1988 to try them out as driver, cos I only have one, so, thats my next target, to get a pair. 
  Outputs are AVVT's, either C37 or 32BL, love both of them, KR's do not get much use, but I think I will keep them anyway, these are very good tubes.
  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Very true!
> 
> What tubes are you currently using on your amp?
> This was my question really.
> ...


----------



## KevinWolff

How do you guys store your tubes? Protective case? original packaging? foam cutouts?


----------



## Wedge

I have them on a shelf in their boxes mostly.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I keep mine in their original boxes, or in white generic ones, standing upright in a rubbermaid plastic tote.


----------



## rosgr63

I keep mine boxed and in aluminum cases on my bed, I sleep on the floor!


----------



## Xcalibur255

lol...... good one!


----------



## john57

[size=medium]I have read most posts in this thread and trying to find a tube guide on various 6SN7 tubes and I am looking for something a bit brighter in the midrange range, good with vocals and airy soundstage. The real Russian 1578 6N8S is a bit out of my price range. Any ideas?  [/size]


----------



## Skylab

Look for a tall-bottle CBS-Hytron


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think the mouse ear Tung Sol would fit this mission too (and also by definition the cheaper grey T-plate Tung Sol without the ears).  It's a "clean" sort of airy and not a "romantic" sort of airy though.  Airy can mean different things to different people.


----------



## john57

Airy  to me means that I can hear better the acoustics of the room or hall that the recording takes place. When I go to a live concert I am more aware of the "space" that the concert is performed in that sometimes sound flat in the recording.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Mmmm, I'd have to withdraw the mouse ears as a recommendation then.  They tend to de-emphasize this trait in exchange for making individual notes sound cleaner.


----------



## john57

[size=medium]I learn from my tube rolling experiments with my little dot MKII I found that the EF91 GEC was the best for me. This tube is very detailed, very natural clear vocals, a bit brighter and a very spacious sound. I do not believe that I have to give up details for a more open sound. My own ears tell me that is the case. I am in the process of getting a 6AS7 amp for the first time that also uses the 6SN7.  My budget only allows me limited tube rolling and I am trying to find the alternative backup tubes that will suit my needs.     [/size]


----------



## Skylab

I think of the BGRP as being very airy, but NOT bright in the midrange.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Agreed.  Airy in a sense of depth and portrayal of space, but not necessarily with that "endless soundstage" type of presentation that some of the Sylvania tubes have going on.  Airy *and* layered is hard to find in a tube and the BGRP TS nails both.


----------



## Blackmore

Maybe you can try some Japanese that been discussed up here recently, they arent expensive and may fit the bill. Other than that, at least to me, air=Brimar. There is another possible candidate around, which I didnt try yet, its COSSOR branded 6SN7, black base with print on glass. When I owned the ZD, which using 1x 6SL7 input, I bought COSSOR branded tube and so far it still the most airy sounding tube up to date. Not sure if 6SN7 version of it is the same, also dont know who made them, possible Brimar.


----------



## john57

[size=medium]How does the TUNG-SOL 6SN7GT BGRP compared to the vaulted version of the Russian 6N8S that some seems to be raving about? They both are not the cheapest tubes either. The original Chinese tubes that came with my Little Dot MKII had the same phony soundstage that was being added to every track.  I threw them out and re rolled with better tubes. That would probably also rule out the Sylvania 6SN7 tubes as well. thanks [/size]


----------



## rosgr63

I don't like the 1578, despite what some people may say.
  To me they have no mids, just highs and lows.
  I am talking about the original Melz 1578.
  Even the cheap 6N8S have the same signature as the 1578 at a fraction of the cost.
   
  Mid range king is the Mullard ECC33 for me.
  Or the Brimar 6SN7GTY or STC CV1988 or FIVRE 6SN7GT.
   
  These are my opinions based on my system.


----------



## dminches

Does anyone have any opinions on Zaerix tubes?  I don't know if they made any 6SN7s but I know they made ECC35/6SU7s.


----------



## Blackmore

Are you sure Zaerix made any of tubes? I think they are just an brand that got tubes from Sovtek, RFT and some even Mullard, but I am not 100% sure either. The only real ECC35 was Mullard made and 6SU7 by Tung Sol.
  
  Any pics?
   
   
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> Does anyone have any opinions on Zaerix tubes?  I don't know if they made any 6SN7s but I know they made ECC35/6SU7s.


----------



## dminches

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110734235102&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


----------



## Blackmore

Thats Sovtek you got there, here you can see one  http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/p/VA-ST6SL7/6SL7+Sovtek+Valve
  
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110734235102&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


----------



## rosgr63

Blackmore is right.
  From the plate and getter construction I would say they are Russian.
  Nice to have for your collection, but if you're after the sound you can buy similar sounding tubes cheaper.


----------



## dminches

Thanks.  I have a bunch of Mullards and a quad of Fivres (which I haven't listened to yet).


----------



## Blackmore

Thats a crime, siriously.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> Thanks.  I have a bunch of Mullards and a quad of Fivres (which I haven't listened to yet).


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Thanks.  I have a bunch of Mullards and a quad of Fivres (which I haven't listened to yet).


 

 Which FIVRE do you have?


----------



## dminches

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170665093500?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
  You can be honest if they aren't any good


----------



## rosgr63

Green printed Logo or Sticker?


----------



## Skylab

Zaerix definitely made NO tubes.  100% rebrander.  Some of their tubes were made by Mullard and other UK makers, and were very nice.  Some were Russian.  Some were Japanese.  It's always a crap-shoot.  David, those ones in that auction you liked to are the exact same tube as the "Ultron" branded 6SL7GT's I sent you (which are also Russian).  Check it out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I agree with Stavros.  The Russian 1578 never impressed me.  I think it's way overpriced.  I still have one left that I should really sell.


----------



## Currawong

I spent some more time with the new Sovteks -- they are nice and mellow which worked nicely with old jazz recordings but they are too mellow for, say, rock.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Thanks.  I have a bunch of Mullards and a quad of Fivres (which I haven't listened to yet).


 
  Dam! I want  a pair of 6SN7 Fivre!!


----------



## dminches

I read somewhere that Fivre and RCA had a relationship with respect to tube manufacturing and maybe design.  Does that mean that the Fivres are similar to some of the RCA production?


----------



## vinyllp33

I agree that the 1578 tube may not be for everyone. 

However in my WA5 driving WE300B they outperform the Tung Sol BGRP in terms of resolution and overall drive.

I could see that if the other tubes used with it are on the dry analytical side that the 1578 would not be a good match.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I read somewhere that Fivre and RCA had a relationship with respect to tube manufacturing and maybe design.  Does that mean that the Fivres are similar to some of the RCA production?


 

 Actually I would say the ATES are closer to RCA, I have some which state under license from RCA.
   
  There are so many variants you'll be surprised.
  And they do sound so different, some combining the wonderful British sound with some extra qualities.
   
  Your Quad are 6SL7, if you look at the labels and tell me what they look like I might be able to help a bit more.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





vinyllp33 said:


> I agree that the 1578 tube may not be for everyone.
> 
> However in my WA5 driving WE300B they outperform the Tung Sol BGRP in terms of resolution and overall drive.
> 
> I could see that if the other tubes used with it are on the dry analytical side that the 1578 would not be a good match.


 

 I have used them with various releases of GEC, MWT and Osram 6AS7G as well as various 300B's and PX4's, which I don't think are dry or analytical and still don't like them in my systems I am afraid.
  On the other hand Kiertijai reported Craig Uthus thougt they were nice. And so do many others.
  Sound preferences are so personal and varied.
  My comments apply to my systems and ears only.


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]I am not a fan of these Russians either, they have a very good low end, but the rest isn't that interesting, but most important, the total picture, which I found not musical enough to get them on my list. [/size][size=10pt]Becides, they are very expensive, imo.[/size]


----------



## vinyllp33

Not to mention finding a "real" 1578 is not easy.

More often than not the majority I see listed are just standard metal base 6H8C with a fake stamp.

Those are vastly inferior and really shouldn't be compared.

But yes, it is all about system synergy and personal preference.


----------



## Blackmore

How many hours 5692 needs to settle?
   
  THX


----------



## rosgr63

I would say 200 hrs as a start for the 5692.
   
  Here is an interesting Cossor tube:


----------



## Xcalibur255

That one is rather striking with the gold print right on the glass.  Possibly made by Brimar?


----------



## john57

Can someone tell me who makes these tubes?

   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230657180232?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


----------



## gurus

Came with the Wheatfield Audio HA-2. Most warm and luscious sound.  Anybody knows about this tube?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





john57 said:


> Can someone tell me who makes these tubes?


 
   
  Soviet 6N8S.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





john57 said:


> Can someone tell me who makes these tubes?
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/230657180232?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


 

 The plate structure, round getter and coolers look like they are of CCCP origin.
   
  Oskari I never saw your reply sorry!


----------



## Skylab

Yup, for sure Russian.  And 2a3 sells a lot of tubes on eBay, many of them very nice, and note how he was very careful in his auction to say "_the printing say _Made in W. Germany_."_ He did not say they were actually made there.  On the other hand, I know he knows they are Russian, and he should have said so.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





gurus said:


> Came with the Wheatfield Audio HA-2. Most warm and luscious sound.  Anybody knows about this tube?


 
   
  Made by Shuguang. Different versions exist. See, e.g., the following links.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/554626/2x-shuguang-6sn7-brass-base-globe
http://www.vt4c.com/shop/program/main.php?group_id=5&cat_id=24
http://www.review33.com/m2/forum_msg.php?db=1&topic=29090310104415&start=175&sort=1&number=466


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Oskari I never saw your reply sorry!


 

 It's always good to get a second opinion or two!


----------



## Currawong

I just switched to RCA 6CG7/6FQ7s in the Stacker, which seem to be a bit more forward and lively than those new Sovtek tubes. I can't help wondering if there aren't any 6SN7s that aren't more lively, but still sweet like these RCAs? Sylvanias?


----------



## rosgr63

Have you tried any Brimar or STC yet?
   
  Earl would be able to give a much better answer for the Stacker.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Stavros,   Is this the STC that you mentioned  http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7GT-STC-VALVE-TUBE-/320184871749?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D2589390950908210931
   
  Is the Brimar that you mentioned : Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY ?   or do you mean the Brimar 6SN7 BVA : grey plate vs black plate
  Which is better CV1988 vs black plate vs grey plate


----------



## rosgr63

Hello Dear Kiertijai,
   
  I actually meant the Brown Base and the military versions.
  I never tried that particular one so I don't know how it sounds.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Stavros,   I am enjoying the 6SN7's (also from many of the members here) that you recommended
  I am using the Brimar 6SN7GTY with very good result,   I think it has a better mid and extended treble.
  I will try to find the STC CV 1988.   I do have the Fivre 6SN7's and  will have the Fivre or SICTE 6SN7 1940's
  soon and will comment on that later.   I have tried the 1578 Melz, they were similar to the Telefunken 6SN7GTA.
  However I think the Telefunken is better : smooth sound and bigger soundstage, some will say that it is dry
  sounding but I used them with the Psvane 300B which gives the lush midrange , they seem to match well.
  This Telefunken is not the same as  the Swedish Standard 33S30B at one site but one website said that the better
  one was Swedish Standard .   Or there may be at least 2 different Swedish Standard's , one is similar to the RCA
  red base  in structure and sound like the RCA  and the better will have different structure and sound better.


----------



## rosgr63

Dear Kiertijai I am pleased you enjoy your BA and the 6SN7s.
   
  There is a Telefunken marked  as 6SN7GTA made by Swedish Standard and is actually a 33S30B.
  This is a nice sounding tube better than the Telefunken 6SN7GTA and a lot better than the 1578.


----------



## rgs9200m

So far, the best sound for me comes from a Cryo'd Brimar Brown-Base tube. It has a non-fatiguing, slightly rolled off top end, and a firm but not overdone, soft, or woolly bass.
  The Black base Brimar has an even nicer, musical, sweet treble, but as the expense of suffering from some softness in the bass.
  The Tung-sol NOS I tried had too much bass (but it was controlled) and the highs were not as nice as the Brimars.
  The Sylvanias NOS CHS ones had good bass, but were also too fatiguing for me in the highs.
  I tend to like some rolled-off sweeter highs, so put this in the perspective of my tastes.
  (I also prefer a very civilized, tight bass, not necessarily a super-deep earthquake-rumble bass).


----------



## kiertijai

Thanks for sharing the experience
  Is the brown base Brimar and Stavros mentioned : Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY?
  I  also have Brimar 6SN7 black base : grey plate and black plate  (the one that
  was in the picture is the black plate) with nicer mid and treble but softer bass?
  Robert at messinacat also offered me the Brimar long bottle which he said that
  it is quite rare and sound like the B65.  I will get those, hopefully  next week along with
  the Mullard 6SN7 (not the ECC's) and Tungsram.  The Balancing Act that I recently
  have is quite sensitive to tube rolling so I learned quite a lot with the tube rolling .


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> the Mullard 6SN7 (not the ECC's) and Tungsram.


 
   
  Mullard apparently never made any 6SN7s but they did label 6SN7s made by others. On the other hand, Philips bought British Tungsram, among so many other things, and let Mullard run the business, and the Tottenham factory did make 6SN7s. I would like to see your photos of these.


----------



## rosgr63

Here are some:


----------



## rosgr63

And another one:


----------



## Skylab

I believe the "4L8" means 4 = English Electric Valve Company, L = Dec, 8 = 1958.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob,
   
  Sorry if I created some confusion but there are two different valves.
  (The TIFF file came out in B&W)


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I believe the "4L8" means 4 = English Electric Valve Company, L = Dec, 8 = 1958.


 

 I don't think so. In the Philips/Valvo/Mullard/etc. codes EEV would be a mirror-image 4. Besides, EEV was more interested in stabilisers and such.


----------



## Skylab

The old codes are tough to decipher sometimes.  "4" might mean Philips Eindoven, but in this case I am pretty sure it doesn't.
   
  You can try the game for yourselves 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 :
   
  http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm


----------



## rosgr63

Rob the more I read how to decipher the Mullard codes the more confused I get!


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, it is not an easy thing to do for sure, and to add to that sometimes the codes are not all that clear on the tube, which can really leave you guessing. Early RCA codes are just as bad! I'm sure that when these were being made, the people making them didn't envision people 50-80 years down the line trying to determine exactly what they meant


----------



## Oskari

I believe those are Brimar codes. ⇒ PVM codes need not apply.


----------



## Skylab

oskari said:


> I believe those are Brimar codes. ⇒ PVM codes need not apply.




OK...so the KB/FE means K spec, British military, and FE is STC Oldway factory. So then 4L8 would be a pure date/batch code?


----------



## Oskari

This is the most informative site I know regarding those:
   
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g8hqp/audio/brimarcodes.html


----------



## rosgr63

Great info, thanks!


----------



## Skylab

Ahhhh...thanks. So 4L8 means 4th week of December in some year ending in 8, which in the case of the CV1988 I think could be 58 or maybe even 68, yes?

And the second three digit code is another number representing the tube type.

Well, that was fun...I have a couple tubes I need to go look at. Thanks Oskari.


----------



## mikey8811

Can someone please help identify these Sylvania 6SN7 GT tubes (pics attached) and let me know if they can be used as a pair?  Please note in the 2nd pic, the tubes are swapped over ie. the tube on the right is the left tube in the 1st pic and is the one with full getter flashing and the vertical date code 852 on the base.

 Both say 6SN7 GT on the top. The one with the getter flashing almost covering the entire tube has 8 52 as a date code on the tube base printed vertically. The other one seems to have the date code scratched out. They both have parallel T-plates. I can't tell if the one with the full flashing has 3 holes in the plate as opposed to 2 but the other one is a 3 hole plate. The difference though is in the bottom mica - the one with full flashing has a rectangular mica that is rounded at both ends - kind of like a capsule - and  has a chalky like finish. The other one has a similar bottom mica but has some sharp teeth or spike like protrusions in the corners and is made of less matte material, holding it against the glass. The one which looks like a GTA is also stamped GT on the top but has the date code obscured. I am wondering if they can be used as a pair. otherwise they will just be in storage.

 At first I thought one was the real Sylvania 6SN7 GT Chrome Dome circa 1952 as it had flashing covering the entire tube but thinking about it, this cannot be right - they were supposedly made in 1952 but the vertical date code on the base says 852 - from what I have read it means 1958 Week 52. I understand that the true Chrome Domes were only made for a short time between 1952-53 and that the date code of 852 which means 1958 52nd week disqualifies the tube with full getter flashing (the one on the left) from being a true Chrome Dome but instead a GTB with full getter flashing but stamped as GT.

 If anyone can verify or disavow this and whether they may be used as a pair, it would be much appreciated.


----------



## rosgr63

You could you use them as a pair from a safety/technical point.
  If you have plate current readings which show the test current then you can have a better idea how closely they are matched.
   
  The Sylvania 6SN7GT and 6SN7GTA sound very close to me but I have found out that some times the same type tubes from a different batch can sound different.
   
  I would definitely try them, assuming they have been tested and have no shorts or leakages.


----------



## rgs9200m

To follow up with some detail on my earlier post (#1166 on Sept 7), this is my exact Brimar brown bass tube: Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY (mine is cryo'd--my tube dealer said it improves things, but I have to take that on faith) .
  It is my tube of choice for now, a fine tube with no obvious faults and producing some nice tube magic in my Apex amp that is very sensitive to the 6ns7 gain tube it uses.
  I still need to try a Ken Rad and a Sophia though, out of curiosity. (A B65 is too expensive to risk on curiosity for me...).
  (I will probably sell the NOS Tung Sols and Sylvanias and RCA VT431s I have collected and tried for a short time.)
   
  The Brown bass Brimar works nicely with my T1s, HD800s,  and D7000s, controlling the bass nicely and keeping the highs from being fatiguing on all of these phones.


----------



## rosgr63

It's a very nice tube indeed.
  Does it have smoked glass?


----------



## dminches

I like the Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY but I find it can be too tubey.  It is a "fair" tube in that it doesn't cause exaggeration at any of the frequencies but I find it can lack some excitement or dynamics.  I feel like you really have to match this tube with your other equipment or you can end up with something that is too smooth (at least for my tastes).


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]How do you use it, input, output or driver and what amp?[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]I am using as input on my Cary and it doesn't sound anything like you describe, which proof that tube performance depends on many things.[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]Any pics?[/size]
   
   
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> I like the Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY but I find it can be too tubey.  It is a "fair" tube in that it doesn't cause exaggeration at any of the frequencies but I find it can lack some excitement or dynamics.  I feel like you really have to match this tube with your other equipment or you can end up with something that is too smooth (at least for my tastes).


----------



## dminches

I am using them in my Modwright Transporter (diskless media player and DAC).  Therefore, I assume they are in the driver stage.
   
  I will post pictures when I get home.  However, I think they are the same as these http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/Brimar+CV1988+6SN7GT+1970s+Black+Glass+Black+Base+1+-+STC+Oldsway+England+.jpg.html  My base may be brown, though.
   

  
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> [size=10pt]How do you use it, input, output or driver and what amp?[/size]
> 
> [size=10pt]I am using as input on my Cary and it doesn't sound anything like you describe, which proof that tube performance depends on many things.[/size]
> 
> [size=10pt]Any pics?[/size]


----------



## rgs9200m

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I like the Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY but I find it can be too tubey.  It is a "fair" tube in that it doesn't cause exaggeration at any of the frequencies but I find it can lack some excitement or dynamics.  I feel like you really have to match this tube with your other equipment or you can end up with something that is too smooth (at least for my tastes).


 


  Yeah, I agree, but that's I think it works well with a lot of top headphones (T1s, D7000s, HD800s, Grados) which have stressful aspects in the highs & upper mids (glare) & sometimes pushy bass. It seems to compensate for these phones' over-the-top characteristics without the sledgehammer approach of tone controls; it just deals with things more naturally. Neutral tubes or amps can make these phones sound fatiguing, as mentioned often around here.
  The trick is to to get some mellowness w/o too-soft ill-defined bass, and the Brimar seems best at walking this line. (That soft bass issue is problem with the VT231 tubes I've tried.)


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]My CV1988 are different, clear glass with brown base and print on glass instead of base. There are several versions of clear glass and they don't sound the same either.[/size]
  [size=10pt]I checked the Modwright web, but also some others, but still don't get which of 2 are driver or output. In your media player you have 3 tubes, where one is 5U4G rectifier and 2 6SN7 equivalent, right? Where 1 must be driver and another output? I am not sure, but can one 6SN7 be a driver for another 6SN7 as output?[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]Sorry, but I don't see any clear technical description about these 6SN7 tubes.[/size]
   
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> I am using them in my Modwright Transporter (diskless media player and DAC).  Therefore, I assume they are in the driver stage.
> 
> I will post pictures when I get home.  However, I think they are the same as these http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/Brimar+CV1988+6SN7GT+1970s+Black+Glass+Black+Base+1+-+STC+Oldsway+England+.jpg.html  My base may be brown, though.


----------



## dminches

What is the difference between the driver and output stages?


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





dminches said:


> What is the difference between the driver and output stages?


 

 Same principle as the difference between a pre-amp and a power amp.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





innerspace said:


> Same principle as the difference between a pre-amp and a power amp.


 

 That's what I thought.  So, a DAC wouldn't have an output stage, right?  It would have a driver stage instead.  Is this correct?


----------



## rosgr63

There are amps where the 6SN7 is a driver and other 6SN7s are output.
  EC Super 7, SP PPX3-6SN7 etc.
   
  Sometimes you get more of a change by rolling input/driver tubes than output ones.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





dminches said:


> So, a DAC wouldn't have an output stage, right?  It would have a driver stage instead.  Is this correct?


 

 I guess semantically you'd have to say a DAC has an output stage - i.e. as far as it's concerned, it outputs a voltage signal as a finished product.  But that voltage will be then passed through an amp's driver stage to the amp's output stage.  Certainly volts and amps will ramp up all the way, but technically each box can be said to have its own driver stage and output stage inside.


----------



## sachu

Anyone willing to send me a pair of the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z on loan for a coupleof weeks. I would dearly love to try this tube out in the stacker before committing to buy it.
   
  can trade a Brimar 12AT7 in exchange for the loaner if need be.


----------



## ricmiclaw

A while ago, there was considerable discussion in this thread concerning modifying the Eddie Current Balancing Act to be able to use BL63 tubes in place of the 6SN7 and 6F8G tubes for which it was designed.  I ordered a BA and discussed this issue at length with Craig Uthus.  At the time, he asked that I post in this thread an announcement on his behalf concerning making modifications to the transformer design of the BA to enable use of the BL63 tube.  This was to be a standard feature of all BAs beginning with serial number 47.  My BA is now being prepared for testing and delivery in the near future and the subject of modifying BAs for using the BL63 tube again came up between Craig and me.  Craig has advised me that the BL63 mod is not going to be standard on BAs and he asked me to make a new posting on his behalf concerning this issue.  The following has been approved by Craig for posting in this thread on Head-Fi:
   
   


> [size=10pt] [size=small]
> 
> 
> > Post # 1048, made August 1, 2011, stated that the so-called "BL63 mod" would be standard on all BAs beginning with serial number 47.  Technical and other factors have made it impossible to make the BL63 mod available as a standard feature of BAs until further notice, which notice will be posted on the Eddie Current website.  In all likelihood, the BL63 mod will not become a standard feature of BAs until sometime in 2012.  Until this modification is made standard for BAs, no one purchasing a BA should use BL63 tubes in place of the 6SN7 or 6F8G tubes for which the BA was designed without first making modifications to the transformer.  Use of BL63 tubes without this transformer modification may damage the tubes, the amp (including transformer), or both.  For more information about the BL63 mod or if you ordered or own a BA and would like to use BL63 tubes, please contact Craig Uthus.
> ...


----------



## Blackmore

Just got some new tubes today, RCA Licensed 6SN7GT, made in Italy by ATES, Black base, grey plates, D getter. Production year unknown.
   
  These are very lovely sounding tubes, no sign of aggressive tone or harshness with fairly good detail. Bass is deep, but a little shy and not punchy, mids are nice and with good recording the female voices sound great. The stage feels bit distand with good image and space, however the extention is bit limited compared to CV1988 Brimar, where Brimar is unbounded and ATES clearly not, but still enough to keep you happy.
  But if I have to be short, I would say, they are pretty balanced and surprisingly musical tubes, recommended.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I'm always wondering where you guys find these obscure things.


----------



## rosgr63

I have a feeling that the BL63 sounds close to the ECC32 and ECC35 Black Base Yellow Print.
  I have never tried the BL63 on my BA but reading Craig's evaluation of the BL63 that's what I think.
   
  Sergei well done on your purchase, very nice tubes.
  I have two variants, one like yours and the other with the logo on the base.
  They are nice enough to have but not my first choice, I find them a bit harsh on my test system.
   
  If anybody is interested there is a NIB quad of rare FIVRE NOS testing sold privately by an Italian friend.
  Very expensive but very good.


----------



## kchew

Has anyone tried the Psvane CV181-T? They are supposedly an upgrade over the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is a quad of NIB never used NU VT-99 Round Plates with the marking paint still intact.
  The seller claims he's the only one with such stock.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Here is a quad of NIB never used NU VT-99 Round Plates with the marking paint still intact.


 

  Very much like the ones I have, sans the paint and the branded boxes.



> The seller claims he's the only one with such stock.


 

  How could he possibly know for certain?


----------



## rosgr63

These are unused tubes.
  When you use them the paint comes off.
  He claims he's the only one with such unused stock, I can't verify this but I have never seen similar tubes in original boxes.


----------



## Oskari

I have no reason to believe mine weren't NOS when I got them.


----------



## rosgr63

Have you compared them to any other 6F8, like RCA, Sylvania, Tung Sol?


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Here is a quad of NIB never used NU VT-99 Round Plates with the marking paint still intact.
> The seller claims he's the only one with such stock.


 

 These are poisonous,Stavros. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 How come you have so much treasure like these, drooling.........................


----------



## rosgr63

I haven't got them yet Danny, I am patiently waiting delivery.
   
  I will not use them, hope to get a third pair by the end of the month to try out.
   
PS Don't forget I am a tube addict!


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I haven't got them yet Danny, I am patiently waiting delivery.
> 
> I will not use them, hope to get a third pair by the end of the month to try out.
> 
> PS Don't forget I am a tube addict!


 

 It's all about time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They will be on your hands finally, I will not PM you to ask where you grab them and please never expose to avoid our wallet bleed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And yeah, we all admit that you really are an addict of tubes.


----------



## Oskari

Quote:


rosgr63 said:


> Have you compared them to any other 6F8, like RCA, Sylvania, Tung Sol?


 

 Me? Nope. But they are very good (but susceptible to vibration).


----------



## john57

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Have you compared them to any other 6F8, like RCA, Sylvania, Tung Sol?


 


 I have used many 6F8 tubes and I have confirmed that the NU tubes which have round plates sounds the best in regards to wide spacious stereo image. I have a GE tube made by NU that has round plates. The other plate shapes are T plates ( most common) and ladder flat plates sometimes staggered. Some of the 6F8 tubes can be a bit noisy but I have not run into 6F8 tubes that are micphonic yet.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





john57 said:


> I have used many 6F8 tubes and I have confirmed that the NU tubes which have round plates sounds the best in regards to wide spacious stereo image. I have a GE tube made by NU that has round plates. The other plate shapes are T plates ( most common) and ladder plates sometimes staggered. Some of the 6F8 tubes can be a bit noisy but I have not run into 6F8 tubes that are micphonic yet.


 

 I have tried to use the Macroni 6F8G black glass / round plate with the WA5LE with Glenn's adapters but they sound not impress me, the tubes were sit aside when I sold the WA22 over a year ago, maybe they need more hrs to warm up since I have them put into the WA5LE for just half an hour of my listening session that day and were swapped back to the Sylvania 6SN7 right the way. Any comment on these Macroni, as I can remember they sound better than TS 6F8G black glass / round plate especially on string instrument, just wonderful sounding with honey mellow like of sound with the WA22.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks John.
   
  Raytheon also made 6F8G with round plates similar to NU.
   
  NU 6F8G RPs are not to be confused with the Tung Sol round plates.
  Tung Sol also make 6F8G Flat Plates which aren't bad.


----------



## john57

I am sure that the Raytheon round tube version you have is made by NU just like when I brought my pair of GE 6FG NOS  tubes in their orginal GE factory boxes, one was round plates and the other was staggered ladder flat plates. There is an Sylvania 6F8G tube that has round plates that is a bit different.
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Thanks John.
> 
> Raytheon also made 6F8G with round plates similar to NU.
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Any comments about the Sylvania 5692 Green Label Short Bottle Military version?


----------



## xinque

Hey all, recently got my Woo Audio 5 and looking to build a 6SN7 (or compatible) collection.  Was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for where to start, or tubes to get to help round out my existing tubes.  Here's what I have so far, tried my best to identify them based on pics I found on the internet:
   
  Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY - 1972, brown base, black glass
  GE 6SN7GTA - 1950's, black base, side getter
  Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB - 1964, black base
   
  Any suggestions on tubes and dealers?  See a few recommends for Tung-Sol round plates, how might those sound compared to the tubes I already have?  Found a pair but no idea if they're the ones everyone's talking about or if the price is fair:
   
  http://tctubes.com/Tung-Sol-6SN7GT-VT231-black-glass-matched-pair.aspx


----------



## rosgr63

TC Tubes are first class sellers, highly recommended.
   
  A seller on ebay is selling a pair of similar tubes, but with no cracks for $750!
  I would get a pair from TC Tubes, if I wanted a taste of what they sound like.
   
  I can't tell you how the various 6SN7 would sound on your Woo 5 but I generally recommend:
   
  Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle, lower mica inside the base.
  RCA 6SN7 Smoked Glass.


----------



## dminches

There is also a pair of 6SN7 BGRPs on sale for $400 on audiocircle.  Those look very nice.
   
  I have always had good dealings with TC tubes.


----------



## Skylab

TC tubes actually won an eBay auction of mine recently, and we had a nice dialog about it. I had a pair of Telefunken ECC83 sell below market value and that's why they bought them. They tested a little low for Ma though (versus NOS, still nice tubes). I can't test for Ma.

Stavros do those Sylvania 5692 have the double ladder plates or do they gave the offset round plates typical of Sylvania 6SN7WGT? I have some that are both ways...


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob,
   
  I don't know as I don't have them yet, I should receive them by early November.
  From the photos I can't really tell and it will be difficult to get more info from the seller as his English is not very good.
  He told me they are very very rare.
   
  Rob by Ma are you referring to plate current during the transconductance measurement?


----------



## Skylab

Right - its really more important for power tubes than preamp tubes like the 6SN7. My tester matched TC Tubes' very closely for transconductance, which I was happy to see, but my tester does not give me a measure for plate current.


----------



## rosgr63

Are you using your B&K?
   
  Some testers can be made to read plate current.
   
  BTW The NU 6F8G sound very nice on the BA driving a pair of AVVT AV300B SL C37.


----------



## Skylab

Right, my B&K 650 tests for actual transconductance but not plate current. Some testers do, as you say, but they tend to be the expensive ones.


----------



## john57

With so many tube threads it gets hard to get clear opinions sometimes. Can some tell me what the SQ difference between a TS round plate and a NU round plate be? Does the TS round plate 6SN7 has the same SQ as the TS round plate 6F8G?


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Right - its really more important for power tubes than preamp tubes like the 6SN7. My tester matched TC Tubes' very closely for trans conductance, which I was happy to see, but my tester does not give me a measure for plate current.


 


 Trans conductance is more important then Plate/cathode current in a set of tubes you want to match. Plate current at what voltage I don't think the plate voltage in a tube tester
  is going to be close to the voltage they will be run at in different amps. But if the trans conductance is off the gain of the tubes will be different.
   I have had tubes test good for plate current and bad for trans conductance and were bad tubes.
   Allot of modern power tubes with misaligned or spread apart grids will test high on plate current and bad on trans conductance. This usually shows up with lower gain and a hot spot
  on the plate.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





john57 said:


> With so many tube threads it gets hard to get clear opinions sometimes. Can some tell me what the SQ difference between a TS round plate and a NU round plate be? Does the TS round plate 6SN7 has the same SQ as the TS round plate 6F8G?


 

 Hi John,
  I started this thread out of respect for the wonderful 6SN7 Reference and Identification threads.
  To keep them as Reference for everybody to learn and use this thread for general discussion.
   
  To me the TS BGRP 6SN7 sounds similar to the TS RP 6F8G.
  The TS RP 6F8G sounds better than the TS Flat Plate 6F8G.
  The NU 6F8G sounds better than the TS RP 6F8G. The music is more alive and detailed.
   
  These are my opinions based on my systems using a pair of old and worn out ears.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> Trans conductance is more important then Plate/cathode current in a set of tubes you want to match. Plate current at what voltage I don't think the plate voltage in a tube tester
> is going to be close to the voltage they will be run at in different amps. But if the trans conductance is off the gain of the tubes will be different.
> I have had tubes test good for plate current and bad for trans conductance and were bad tubes.
> Allot of modern power tubes with misaligned or spread apart grids will test high on plate current and bad on trans conductance. This usually shows up with lower gain and a hot spot
> on the plate.


 

  Glenn a very good way to match tubes is by actualy getting the data to plot the Plate Voltage vs Current curves.
  If the curves are similar then the tubes would be matched.
  You can see this by placing one plot on top of the other and hold them against a light source.
   
  My tube guru however says that a single point match is good enough, so single plate current measurments are good enough.
  We have had many arguments but as he has tested over 100,000 tubes I can't say much.
  He also believes that an emissions tester like the Jackson with a leakage circuit superior to Hickok and a good measurment circuit is all you need.
  Finaly he stresses the real test is your amp!
   
  I have had weak testing but safe tubes that sound great and still going strong.


----------



## kiertijai

I have seen in audiogon about the Philips-Pope 6SN7 but they are very expensive
  and I have to purchase 4 of them.  The seller does not want to split into 2 pairs and
  it is firm price.  I also saw in upscaleaudio.com that you can get this only when you
  purchase another gear from them.
  Does any one know how good it is , what is the average price and where can I find one or
  two tubes to try. 
  I also would like to know about the Mullard ECC34 , is it similar to ECC32 (like 6SN7 to 6SL7)
  it is also very expensive.
  Another item is the Adzam 6SN7  , I thought I purchased one but I don't know where it is,
  I would also like to find one but only saw the 6SL7.
  Are they worth the price and the search?
  thanks,


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> To me the TS BGRP 6SN7 sounds similar to the TS RP 6F8G.
> The TS RP 6F8G sounds better than the TS Flat Plate 6F8G.
> The NU 6F8G sounds better than the TS RP 6F8G. The music is more alive and detailed.
> 
> These are my opinions based on my systems using a pair of old and worn out ears.


 

 I agree with the first two of Stavros's opinions, but I think the TS RP 6F8G sounds better than the NU (which are different tubes).  The NU is brighter, but I did not find it to be more detailed.  But the NU is a fine tube, and of course this also is just my own opinion


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob.
  It's always nice to have a second opinion.
  It just shows how tubes can sound in different systems and how personal preferences come into it.
   
  I can't stress enough how important it is to try out a tube in one's own equipment to be sure.


----------



## Skylab

That's for sure!  Tubes will VERY often sound different in different amps.  The circuit plays a huge role in how the tube will sound.
   
  Not only that, but individual tube samples will vary in sound, due to age.  So it is very important to have a broad cross-section of opinions!


----------



## xinque

Sigh.. Wallet hurting from tube rolling. But think I can fit in one more pair for the year.  Anyone have an opinion on how TS BGRP / Mullard ECC32 / Treasures might sound compared to my Brimar CV1988?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That's for sure!  Tubes will VERY often sound different in different amps.  The circuit plays a huge role in how the tube will sound.
> 
> Not only that, but individual tube samples will vary in sound, due to age.  So it is very important to have a broad cross-section of opinions!


 

 Couldn't agree more.
  I have found out to my surprise that the same tubes from different batches sound different.


----------



## dminches

The TS BGRP and the Mullard ECC32s are my 2 favorites for my Modwright Transporter.  They are the most dynamic and most detailed while not being exaggerated at any of the frequencies.  They will both make your wallet moan and groan.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





xinque said:


> Sigh.. Wallet hurting from tube rolling. But think I can fit in one more pair for the year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I actually own the TS BGRP, Mullard ECC32 and Brimar CV1988 and used to own the Treasures.
  I like the ECC32 the best and then tie in second the Brimar and the TS. The Treasures IMO are in third with a wide margin.
  IMO the ECC32 has the dymanics of the TS and the romantic sound of the Brimar. they are expensive but worth the money IMO.


----------



## TheWuss

hey, guys.
  long time listener, first time caller.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  the Peak/Volcano is my first 6sn7 amp.  and, i haven't had the amp too long.
  so, i'm new to this terrific thread...
   
  And I just wanted to report my findings with my Peak/Volcano.
   
  I've rolled several 6sn7 types.  Including the ubiquitous Shuguang Treasure, the lovely Brimar CV1988, RCA gray glass, Ken Rad VT-231, etc.
   
  And, oddly, my favorite tube of all i tried so far is the humble Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top, from the late 1950s.  
   
  The sound is simply fantastic.
  The tube has a very low noise floor, and produces a rich, dynamic, and holographic sound.
  It easily competes with the Treasure for detail, but without the unwanted extra highs...
   
  So, any of you experts want to tell me i'm off my rocker for prefering this simple tube, that can be found for $80 or thereabouts?
  Am I nuts?
   
  cheers!




  the wuss


----------



## rosgr63

The Sylvania 6SN7GTB chrome top is a very nice tube indeed.
  I do prefer the Sylvania 6SN7W and 6SN7WGTA more.


----------



## john57

I also just found out that my two NU tubes do not sound alike. Thanks for the tip.
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> That's for sure!  Tubes will VERY often sound different in different amps.  The circuit plays a huge role in how the tube will sound.
> 
> Not only that, but individual tube samples will vary in sound, due to age.  So it is very important to have a broad cross-section of opinions!


----------



## Wedge

Thats the thing about these old tubes, sometimes from tube to tube, they get to be in different stages of their lives and they don't always sound the same, but they can still test ok. 
   
  The Wuss, I also have the Peak/Volcano, and I love it with the ECC32, as well as the Fivre 6SN7GT.  Recently I decidedly to try out a Sylvania Bad Boy, and I like this one as well.   Another tube I like for use with headphones is Osram B65, which costs a small fortune, but I found this tube to be a little bit bass light for pre amp duties.  Sometimes tube choice can be dependant on the cans used, so for me since I mostly listen to LCD-2s, you all can use that as my point of reference.  I would kind of place the TSRP behind those other tubes, although it is quite a good tube nonetheless.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





wedge said:


> ...ECC32, as well as the Fivre 6SN7GT.  Recently I decidedly to try out a Sylvania Bad Boy, and I like this one as well.   Another tube I like for use with headphones is Osram B65, which costs a small fortune, but I found this tube to be a little bit bass light for pre amp duties.


 
   
  boy...  tube rolling the peak is a real blast.
  one tube.  easy as pie.  and the differences telegraph straight through...  and are easily appreciated.
   
  thanks, wedge, for the other tube ideas.  those italian tubes look gorgeous...


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> And I just wanted to report my findings with my Peak/Volcano.
> 
> I've rolled several 6sn7 types.  Including the ubiquitous Shuguang Treasure, the lovely Brimar CV1988, RCA gray glass, Ken Rad VT-231, etc.
> 
> And, oddly, my favorite tube of all i tried so far is the humble Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top, from the late 1950s.


 

 No great surprise to me.  I personally believe the Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounds better than the Shuggie, or ANY current production 6SN7 type.


----------



## xinque

Mm..  time to hunt down an ECC32 then.  Anyone know some reputable dealers with them in stock?  Can't seem to find them anywhere other than tubeworld.
  
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I actually own the TS BGRP, Mullard ECC32 and Brimar CV1988 and used to own the Treasures.
> I like the ECC32 the best and then tie in second the Brimar and the TS. The Treasures IMO are in third with a wide margin.
> IMO the ECC32 has the dymanics of the TS and the romantic sound of the Brimar. they are expensive but worth the money IMO.


----------



## kiertijai

I have used the Balancing Act for sometime and is now enjoying the tube rolling.
  I was proposed the Philips-Pope 6sn7 but the the price is high for a used one
  I wonder that is it the same as Philip-MWT 6SN7.  The seller as well as upscaleaudio
  mention that it is the best. *So what should I do, anyone has used the Philips-Pope 6sN7*
    I also used the Balancing Act as a preamplifier and found
  that the preamplifier function i excellent preamplifier.  I used it to tame the bright
  edge and make the midrange of the Stax SR009 full, rich and sweet flowing.   I used
  the GEC B65 and National Union black glass 6sn7 to do the job.  Other 6SN7 is very good too.
     For me I found that I like several 6SN7's : for the warm full sound I prefer the ECC32,
  GEC B65, ECC33, and National union.   For the audiophile music I use the Tungsol black glass
  round plate, Telefunken 6sn7wgta and Swedish standard, SICTE Fivre.   For rock or
  pop music I will use Kenrad , Sylvania metal base or National Union
     I also found that the Mullard 6SN7, Tungsram and Brimar long bottle is very good too.  Seems
  like I prefer long bottle Brimar more than the CV1988
     I am now trying to use 68FG's   but I have no experience *can someone suggest which one*
*should I get?   *I have tried some and prefer the National Union and Raytheon.
     *Can 7n7 be used to , if so which one should I try?*
*   *I don't know much about tubes so I cannot identify some of them,   I have seen long bottle RCA
  Westinghouse and Tungsol 6SN7GTB,  *are they good too*?
  Thanks everyone
  kiertijai


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





xinque said:


> Mm..  time to hunt down an ECC32 then.  Anyone know some reputable dealers with them in stock?  Can't seem to find them anywhere other than tubeworld.


 


  I bought my two pairs from ebay with no issues at all.
  Try here. I bought a pair of tubes from him with no problems at all.
  http://www.natubes.com/index.php?page=product&do=search


----------



## Badd99

Okay im trying to find a tube in the 6sn7 family that will match well with my LCD-2's. The amp will vary so don't worry about that factor. 
   
  Im just looking for something with a reasonable price that has nice bass, midrange, and soundstage. Something around the $25 max price range is what I would like to shoot for atm. 
   
  I would really appreciate the help?
   
  I was looking at the Ken Rad Vt-231 black glass but since ill run them on a preamp the microphonics might be bad....
   
  I do have a Hytron 6sn7gt but I have not tried it and am reading mix reviews on it, what do you think? I got it for $8 with free shipping so I took it.


----------



## Xcalibur255

It sounds like you are looking for a single tube, right?  If you found a Hytron for $8 and it tests new then you got a very good deal indeed.  Your $25 limit rules out the Ken Rads for sure, even if you find a great deal........... a great deal on a Ken Rad is still going to be twice that.  Sometimes you can find singles in the National Union 6SN7GT for $25 or less and those are great tubes.  Any 50's vintage Sylvania GTB will also be under your price cap and will be a competent tube.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Badd99,
      If you don't mind other options outside 6SN7's, 6SL7's , you may try 6F8G's
      There are several good ones which I am now enjoying e.g. National Union, Sylvania,
  Raytheon, GE  (or even Kenrad)  All these tubes I recently purchased were less  than 25$/tube
  and you only have to buy one adapter which cost less.  Like this one I got NU+GE for 27$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190556344471?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
  or like this one  : 2 NOS Raytheon jan crp vt99 for 19.99$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200630501226?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
  or even telefunken 6SN7W GTA  with very good SQ that Craig loves around 25-30$
   
  However the selection of tubes depends on what SQ of the LCD2 that you would like to be e.g.
  if you want the sound stage to open up you may choose Telefunken, if you want heavy bass and sweet mid
  you may choose NU or Kenrad, if you want a good balance you may want Raytheon, Sylvania etc.   This depends
  entirely on you.
  Like now I am enjoying my BA 300B (I use original WE300B 1960's which cost a fortune) with 6F8G NU
  (yes, that NU+GE for 27$) with very good result listening with SR009 passing through BA as an preamplifier.
   
  I will try 7n7's soon but I don't know which one to choose however I saw Sylvania and NU at good price.
  Also the RCA, Raytheon.  I need guidance and input from here too.


----------



## Wedge

Sometimes you can find Sylvanias in that price range, which are very solid tubes.


----------



## Skylab

If the Hytron is the tall-bottle, that is a very fine tube indeed, and likely just right for the LCD-2, IMO.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I have used the Balancing Act for sometime and is now enjoying the tube rolling.
> I was proposed the Philips-Pope 6sn7 but the the price is high for a used one
> I wonder that is it the same as Philip-MWT 6SN7.  The seller as well as upscaleaudio
> mention that it is the best. *So what should I do, anyone has used the Philips-Pope 6sN7*
> ...


 

 Dear Kiertijai,
  I have seen these Pope valves for some time now.
  I don't have any but I don't think much of them.
  As Blackmore has explained to me when we were considering these tubesPOPE means:
  PRODUCTION SURPLUS EINDHOVEN PHILIPS, but in Dutch its *P*roductie *O*verschotten *P*hilips *E*indhoven
   
  I have similar experiences with my BA and 6SN7s I would add the Sylvania 6SN7W and RCA VT 231 smoke glass.
   
  The 6F8G are not expensive tubes I suggest you get a selection and try them out.
  I find the NU 6F8G Round Plates excellent so far.
   
  The 7N7 can be used with a suitable adapter, I have not used any yet.
   
  I like the 6SN7GTBs too.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Stavros,
      thanks for your advice.  I will stay away from Pope 6sn7 because it is very expensive.
      I also found that the National Union 6F8G is very good and cheap. I will try the 7n7
  National union soon.
      I was told that when you purchase the 6F8G you should try the round plate, is this true?
      while someone suggested that long bottle 6SN7's are usually good, is this true too besides
  the military version?
      I recently found several long bottle 6SN7's and it is not expensive  like the RCA, Tungsol,
  Westinghouse.  Are they good?  Here are the picture:
  I had one long bottle Brimar 6SN7 and one long bottle nickel base Sylvania 6SN7W which are very good, will
  this apply to this observation too?


----------



## rosgr63

There are two types of 6F8G with round plates:
   
  The Tung Sol Round Plates, similar to the 6SN7 BGRP plates.
  The NU Round Plates, similar to some Brimar 6SN7 ones.
   
  I like them both but prefer the NU.
  A stronger, unused NU tube will give you a different/better presentation.
   
  I like the long bottle 6SN7GTB made by Westinghouse, NEC, Hitachi, and others.
   
  I like the Sylvania 6SN7W metal base and find the black base where the lower mica is inside the base very good too.
   
  These are my opinions, others have different views which are welcome.
   
  Craig likes the 1578, I don't.
  Rob likes the TS 6F8G RP better than the NU one.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I was proposed the Philips-Pope 6sn7 but the the price is high for a used one
> I wonder that is it the same as Philip-MWT 6SN7.  The seller as well as upscaleaudio
> mention that it is the best. *So what should I do, anyone has used the Philips-Pope 6sN7*


 
   
  Philips-MWT doesn't make much sense because MWT was short for Marconi Wireless Telegraph. I guess you mean Miniwatt or Philips Miniwatt, which does make sense because even the combination was used by Philips as well as both the Philips and Miniwatt brands on their own. A Miniwatt tube may well be the same thing as a Pope tube, but not necessarily. The brand printed on the tube doesn't guarantee this. I, for example, have this Miniwatt-branded 6SN7GT (see photo) which was made by MBLE in Brussels; it's got the L factory code for MBLE. Obviously this is not the same as a tube with a factory code for a Dutch plant. MBLE's own tube brand was Adzam but there are lots of tubes made by them carrying other brand names of the Philips group.
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have seen these Pope valves for some time now.
> I don't have any but I don't think much of them.
> As Blackmore has explained to me when we were considering these tubesPOPE means:
> PRODUCTION SURPLUS EINDHOVEN PHILIPS, but in Dutch its *P*roductie *O*verschotten *P*hilips *E*indhoven


 
   
  So, they are Philips tubes by yet another name. What do mean you don't think much of them? I'd like to hear one. On the other hand, I must say that I don't think much of the MBLE tube. I pulled it pretty fast when I tried it because I didn't like what I heard. Perhaps I didn't give it a fair chance, though. I should try it again some day.


----------



## Badd99

Thanks guys...I have an offer to buy a  *Ken-Rad USA 6SN7GT Black [] Plate Bottom Getter*
   
*its the black glass down to almost the bottom where the bottom strip is *metallic* silver for $15 free shipping...would this be a problem with a single ended pre-amp?*


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> So, they are Philips tubes by yet another name. What do mean you don't think much of them? I'd like to hear one. On the other hand, I must say that I don't think much of the MBLE tube. I pulled it pretty fast when I tried it because I didn't like what I heard. Perhaps I didn't give it a fair chance, though. I should try it again some day.


 

 I would not pay $400 for a Pope pair.
  One can get a nice Philips 6SN7WGTA Blue or Green label for $40.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I would not pay $400 for a Pope pair.
> One can get a nice Philips 6SN7WGTA Blue or Green label for $40.


 

 I wouldn't pay that much either but a Dutch-made tube is a totally different animal to a US-made Philips ECG (nee Sylvania) tube.


----------



## Blackmore

I believe that the price of POPE tubes, as may some others, is the result of their small batch, but also that they have been made at famouse Eindhoven plant, which for many, means high quality. As for the sound, I dont know, and, as far as I can remember, never have read any review about them.
   
  Basically, POPE was the name to use for export, Philips did this with many things, just sold them under differ names and I believe Philips Miniwatt 6SN7GT is the same tube
http://www.tubes.rs/Tubes/NOS/Audio/PreTriodes/6SN7/6SN7GTPhilips.htm


----------



## kiertijai

I have to correct the price of Philips-Pope 6SN7's , previously they were sold by upscaleaudio.com
  However later because the small number of the Pope 6sn7,  they will sell only for those who buy one of their gear
  When I approached upscaleaudio.com again it was not available.   I saw the ad in audiogon for 4 tubes of Pope 6SN7
  for 435$ (previous price is 600$ for four tubes ).  While I communicated with him , he pulled out the ad and said
  that he did not want to sell anymore because he had enough money for the RMAF now.  The seller said that the
  Pope is the best of the best so I want to try but may be only a pair or one tube but he wanted to sell all four. So
  the deal was off.  However if they are the same as Philips-Miniwatt (sorry for the mistake it's not MWT) I have saved
  a lot of money and thanks for every one that help giving your opinion.


----------



## Blackmore

Just recently, I missed the Ebay sale of this Philips, I was pissed, cos it was sold cheap, but if you take a look, this one is GTA and have a little differ print on it, but also seems to be taller


----------



## Blackmore

And here is another POPE, which is simply ECC33 Mullard, which also proves that POPE doesnt give you 100% that its been Made in Holland only


----------



## Blackmore

Funny thing is, POPE rhymes nicely with RIP-OFF, sorry guys


----------



## Badd99

Landed a RCA 6sn7gt / Vt-231 gray glass for $24 with shipping. Im hoping it pairs up nice with my LCD-2's


----------



## rgs9200m

The RCA VT231 has too soft a bass for me.
  Be prepared for this & try and remember it's not a fault in the LCD2.


----------



## Anaxilus

Ken Rad BG won't give you the soundstage you are looking for either I believe.


----------



## Badd99

I have to hear the bass for myself. SInce the LCD-2 is so good in the bass Im hoping its fine.
   
  what 6sn7 is good for bass and is not the ken rad since it wont work in preamps well?
   
  Can anyone relate the sound between the RCA 6sn7gt and the RCA 6fq7?


----------



## Anaxilus

There's about 10 different qualities in 'Bass' could you kind of elaborate more specifically?


----------



## kiertijai

May I ask what is your LCD2 rev 1 or rev2.?
       In my opinion the bass of LCD2 rev1 is already very good, in term of quantity, impact,
  extension however it has delayed decay which some listener does not like, for the LCD2
  rev1 I use the Sylvania 6sn7W metal base which also has good bass dynamic response
  with more detail and soundstage.   For me Ken Rad may be too much and does not solve the problem of delayed decay.  Even Tungsol BGRP will help about the dynamic bass for rev1.
        For LCD2 rev2, probably the bass extension is better than the rev1 but the quantity, impact is less .  rev2 has more dynamic bass response.   In my experience Ken Rad or even National Union
  may be a good choice.  The problem of bass soundstage is less in rev2 than in rev1.
         If you want wide soundstage you may need to change the cable too. In my case I use
  the silver clad Zeus cable with excellent result, SAA endorphin is also good but more expensive. I  have no experience in Norse Cable or ALO or Q audio so I cannot comment on that.  Apuresound cable is also good but more appropriate for the rev2 , not the rev1 because it has a darker tone in my experience.   Please also use the fully balanced set up that will open up the soundstage too.
         In my case with LCD2 rev1 I use the fully balanced setup with the BA, I use the Analysis plus with furutech carbon fiber termination (this termination improves the bass response markedly) so I don't feel the need to use driver tube with good bass but I use Tungsol BGRP, Sylvania 6sn7W metal base or even Westinghouse or Telefunken 6SN7 GT to improve the soundstage .  Recently I found that the soundstage is even wider using the SICTE Fivre 6SN7GT and Tungsram 6SN7's.
            Hope this will help


----------



## Badd99

I do have the Rev 1. I actually have one of the very first made which looks the nicest IMO. The wood finish is much nicer and is the darker finish. I have a custom cable on them that does open up the soundstage that I made myself out of OCC copper and quality connectors. 
   
  Im going to look into the sylvania 6sn7 with the brown bottom and chrome top as suggested and see how that pairs. 
   
  The RCA 6sn7gt should provide an adequte bass, open up the sound stage a bit, and provide a lush midrange as I understand the tube.


----------



## kiertijai

You may also try the Tungsol 6SU6GT or Tungsol 6F8G to make the bass more dynamic and open up the sound stage more.
  I found that using cable with some silver+ copper  will help open up soundstage more,  I have used Twag (silver) it did open up
  the soundstage but the quality bass disappeared.  If you are already satisfied with the bass quantity, impact, extension but would
  like the detail and soundstage you may try Toshiba, Telefunken, Westinghouse which are not expensive from ebay.


----------



## Skylab

of course the 6SU7GTY is a 6SL7, not a 6SN7.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Funny thing is, POPE rhymes nicely with RIP-OFF, sorry guys


 

  
  BAD BOY!!!!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You're spoiling the fun.


----------



## kiertijai

_*of course the 6SU7GTY is a 6SL7, not a 6SN7.*_
_*    *_No,  it is of course not 6SN7 ,  I almost forgot we have to ask
  the amplifier builder before using that.  For my BA there is no problem of
  using the 6SL7 although some mentioned that there may be some distortion on high treble
  but I did not find that using Tungsol 6SU7GTY or even Mullard ECC35 which is a
  6SL7 not 6SN7.  I also tried to find the Mullard ECC34 which is 6SL7's of ECC32 but the price is
  somewhat high.
   
     I will try to get a Pope 6SN7 and see how it sound?  of course I would not buy 2 pairs
  at 435$
   
_*May I ask one question here ?*_   _*I made a mistake by buying Visseaux 6N7's quad (ECC31)very cheap*_
_*However I realised later that they are 6N7's   not  6SN7's.*_   This is of course a novice mistake
  so I emailed to ask Craig and he answered that we can use that in case that we can find the 6N7/6SN7
  adapter.  I looked everywhere on ebay and didn't find any.  At last I made a wild guess, sent an email to
  ayumitubes who made several adapters and found that they do have.   However I am not sure that
  they are usable so I would like to ask here whether _*is it safe to use that, is the sound good enough? because*_
_*the 6N7 's are cheaper than the 6F8G's and 7N7's.   *_I also saw some Mullard ECC31  but at the moment
  it cost around 110$ which is not bad if it can do 80-90% of the more expensive Mullard ECC32.  They may be
  cheaper on auction because I saw one pair of Mullard ECC31 cost less than 120$ but at that time I could not
  find the adapter so I did not attempt to bid.   Alex Shen will send me the adapter this week so I may have chance
  to try that early next week with the Visseaux 6N7's (ECC31) which are the French Military version.  Hope that
  it will not destroy my BA.


----------



## Skylab

Well, if Craig says you can use it, then he would know, but the 6N7 is pretty different from the 6SN7. They are both 6.3V medium mu twin triodes, and have some similar parameters, but others that are VERY different. If it worked well and sounded good it would be just a happy accident.


----------



## Badd99

anyone with experience wit these tubes?
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-METAL-BASE-tubes-MELZ-TESTED-PS-7-/310351719354?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4842676bba#ht_500wt_1180


----------



## rosgr63

I have not used these.
  I do not like 6N8S tubes, others swear by them.
  I would get some cheap ones with the plastic base to check their sound first.
  Then I would go for the 1578 with the perforated plates.


----------



## kiertijai

Have anyone used these long bottle 6SN7GT  tubes?     I have the choice of only 2 out of 4 which the two that I
  should choose?    What can we expect about the sound signature of these 4 tubes?


----------



## kchew

I'd get the left two tubes, the Fivre and Tungsram. The right two look like my Brimar 6SN7s which I thought sounded decent, but nothing special as compared to my CV1988. The Fivre should have a midrange lusher than the CV1988. No idea about the Tungsram, but it should be worth a try out of the four.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Kchew, thanks for the info.
  I chose the Fivre long bottle,   I almost chose the Brimar and Tungram , those are long bottle.  This Brimar is more difficult to find
  than the ordinary one and sounds more special to me , it is definitely better than the Brimar 6sn7 and at the same level with the CV1988
  if not better.   The Tungsram is also long bottle , it sounds very good with huge soundstage probably wider than the SICTE Fivre.  I almost
  chose this one too but I have  used one.  I chose the Cossor because I never heard one and the seller said that the structure is similar (long
  bottle same structure with the Brimar long bottle) so I chose that one but it seems like I get 3 tubes not 2 because the Cossor is the same as Brimar long bottle but less use.  However if they perform poorly then I will have only one good tube,   Fivre long bottle is my best bet and I think the Tungsram that I have before comes in second.         That's the fun part of 6sn7 addicts besides listening.  Choosing the tubes that you don't know and for me I cannot listen before and use your intuition, feeling, wild guess, look and luck. Even with all those I may have 25% less than satisfactory result.
     I also would like to know about our experience and because the higher price of 6SN7's,   which tubes are the possible replacement of 6sn7 ? 
     I will list what I was told from various source but I am not confident that it is correct and what precaution should we take?
     1. ECC tubes : ECC32 ECC33 ECC34? ECC35  and ECC31?
     2. 6SL7 : which are the best to get, whith are the best buy?   : ECC35?  Tungsol?  too expensive now
     3. 6SU7GT :   the only one I know is tungsol and when I heard the name I know in my heart that my wallet will hurt
     4. 7N7   :   Raytheon , National Union , Kenrad  , sylvania, CBS and Tungsol again     Any european version?
     5. 6N7   : both 7n7, 6n7 need special adapter from ayumitubes.com   I have the Visseauax (french military) and GE and almost landed
  the Mullard but I cannot stay up to 3 am to get this pair.  Mullard ECC31 is a 6N7 and can be used but the price is 100+/tube
      6.   6F8G : Craig said the best is GEC BL63,  Others that I know is Raytheon, Kenrad, National union, Tungsol again.
      7. I was also told that we can also use 6l6GC  but I am not sure , Craig will take a look
      8. 6CG7 : need our opinion,   At first I told Craig that it was 6CA7 (I got confused)  and said no no and NO but he is so kind
  to me that he said he will take a look
  Please comment  and share on your experience because 6SN7's is not cost /performance option


----------



## rosgr63

Dear Kiertijai,
  I have used the 6CG7 and 6FQ7 on on of my amps instead of a 6SN7 and they sound fine.
  They 6CG7 are a 6SN7 packed in a 9pin small bottle.
   
  I have also used 12AV7 and 12AZ7 tubes successfully.
   
  All the above were recommended to me by SACD Lover and sound great on my SP's.
  Thanks Earl.
   
  I have used ECC34 instead of an 6SN7 without any problems.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Stavros,
    thanks for that very helpful answer.
    for each types of 6sn7 equivalent?   which is better , which is best buy (price/performance)
    could you give 2-3 brand names for each type that you think we shoul collect.


----------



## rosgr63

Dear Kiertijai,
   
  Pleased to be of help.
   
  I have tried a few of the equivalents but my experience is very limited compared to some of the great tube teachers.
  Earl SACD Lover would be one of the best to ask for these equivalents as he has spent a lot of time and has great in-depth knowledge and experience.
   
  From my limited knowledge I would recommend RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon, and GE for starters.
  These are cheap tubes so it's worth trying out a few.
   
  The RCA 12AV7 and Sylvania 12AZ7A drive my 6AS7's nicely.


----------



## Skylab

My VanAlstine DAC uses 6CG7's.  The RCA's have a great reputation among 6CG7's, and indeed, I find them to sound excellent.  Like many RCA's they are a touch romantic sounding, but they are very full range and robust sounding as well.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear skylab, stavros, Kchew
     Thanks for the suggestion.
     Craig has just emailed me that he mostly use 6F8G, 7N7 and 6cg7 without problems  however the 6l6 or 6l6 gc
  should be used.
      I have limited experience on 6F8G's but I think they are very good too : I have the Raytheon , NU, Kenrad , sylvania and tungsol
  but I don't like much of Tungsol 6f8g  because the tungsol BGRP is an excellent one and their 6Su7GTY is also very good.
      I recently got the 7n7 Raytheon and National Union and 6n7 only the Visseaux (french military)   all of them are good but no time
  to digest .
       I have several 6SL7 's and will try them soon too.
       I never know about the 6CG7 and I will try RCA as skylab suggested.  I also like the RCA 6sn7 military black glass?  and RCA and GE are cheap too.
       I will take a look at these too  The RCA 12AV7 and Sylvania 12AZ7A drive my 6AS7's nicely
       I also would like to ask how can we get one that Craig has recommended that is VT-99 Arcturus?  I think the tubes are very beautiful  with blue colour
   
  thanks for all the suggestion
        I will get those long bottle Brimar, Fivre, Cossor  and the Tungsrum , Mullard 6sn7 soon and hope I can share some


----------



## Blackmore

I hope you got FIVRE and COSSOR.
  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> Have anyone used these long bottle 6SN7GT  tubes?     I have the choice of only 2 out of 4 which the two that I
> should choose?    What can we expect about the sound signature of these 4 tubes?


----------



## kiertijai

I hope so.  I chose the Fivre and Cossor and expect them to arrive next week.   The Brimar, fivre and Cossor are long tubes.
  The two Brimar's on the left has longer bottle   while the one on right is what we usually have.  All three sounds good, but I ordered
  the long tube along with two tungram and two Mullard 6SN7. Both long bottle Brimar has mint test but the sound did not come out from
  one side of one tube.  Both of Tungsram sounds very good with bigger soundstage.   The Mullard sounds like the Mullard but a very good one.
  The test from one Mullard is marginal so I have to write to the seller and he kindly replace the long Bottle Brimar and the Mullard that have problems and he
  sent me the 4 tubes to choose.   I gladly accepted the fivre as i never have long botle fivre 6sn7 before,  I think I am OK with the Mullard and I have ordered
  another pair similar but with black plates.   Brimar and Cossor should be the same and the seller said that it has similar structure with better test, so that's made
  my decision easy.  I will have the Brimar , Cossor, Fivre long bottle, Two Tungrams's,   One good Mullard grey plate , one so so Mullard and two good pairs of black
  plates mullard.  I will have a lot to catchup but I don't think I am that smart to note the subtle difference.  Hope to be able to share some though.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> The Mullard sounds like the Mullard but a very good one.
> One good Mullard grey plate , one so so Mullard and two good pairs of black plates mullard.


 

 Mullard never *made *6SN7GTs. Please post photos and let us see what they *branded*.


----------



## kiertijai

Here is a pair of Mullard 6SN7GT black base.     The other two that I got   one is brown base and another one is black base like this however the letter of the first two are not
  well seen


----------



## Skylab

Unfortunately those tubes are just Russian 6H8C's, and only worth a few dollars each.


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Skylab Thanks for that comment. I always suspect about this Mullard whether they are real or not. Good to know that. I think it's difficult to know for a new comer and this pair doesn't cost much    However if I have to purchase other  that are more expensive I will be very careful.
  Do you also think that Brimar long bottle is also a real one or the Cossor long bottle?


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Oskari, Skylab
  Thanks for your helpful and informative comments
  I have emailed through ebay to the seller asking to have the money refunded
  because I don't want open a dispute against him.  However this is his response
  he may or may not know about  the item much.
*russian? these were from the estate of an organ repairman. they were still in the box addressed to the repairman with the return address baldwin organ company.*

 There is another question brown base Mullard 6sn7 from another famous seller.  However the
  test was not good and I have changed that into the Fivre 6SN6 long bottle.  That suspected Mullard is the brown base third tube from left in the pictures that showed 4 tubes.  Fivre,
  Tungsram, Mullard, Cossor .   Is that one a fake too?  just for the knowledge the problem on this one has been solved.


----------



## kiertijai

Finally the seller said that he agree to refund the money upon receiving the tubes back after I said
  that I will take pictures upon arrival and I do have third party that will help verify the tube.  If that's the
  case we have to open a dispute and his money will be frozen and both of us may not want to do that
  This is another pair of Mullard 6SN7's.  I don't know much about the tube structure but they
  seem to be different than the Russian pairs above.  Are they truly Mullard?  One tube doesn't have
  good test after I  informed him he agree to give me  the Fivre 6SN7 long bottle
  .


----------



## rosgr63

The one the left looks like a FIVRE Brown base and the one on the right like a Brimar.
  Of course I could be very wrong.
   
  Here is a Mullard 6SN7GT


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Stavros,  
      Thanks for the info.  It was a great true learning experience for me which can not be estimate
  in money term.   That's already good enough.  I should have studied or asked more but I may be
  too easy going for that and that's the area that I need to improve. I have asked some of my  friends
  however they may not have enough experience.
        I have looked at the Fivre pairs that I have from different sellers comparing to the left tube.  All previous Fivre
  have black base but the plates look similar in one Fivre pair and one SICTE.  The plates of the one that I got is more white
   than the plate on the black based Fivre and SICTE
     The right one, the plates look like Brimar or another pair of black base of Fivre of mine.  The right
  one is the one with poor test that I traded back ( he allowed me to keep the tube but he will send new one)
  I will wait for the replacement and see.  If they were real  Brimar or Fivre that should be all right.  I know
  that entering into this field you will have to face problems and loss like this and this knowledge will prevent me from
  worse future loss. Thanks for the info and feedback.  This helps me learn much faster at least it will prevent me
  to sell this pair to other people if I have to or give wrong recommendations.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> *russian? these were from the estate of an organ repairman. they were still in the box addressed to the repairman with the return address baldwin organ company.*


 

 That doesn't change the fact that the tubes should read "Made in USSR". They don't have to be fakes, though. The Mullard brand could have been applied legally—but the tubes certainly weren't made by Mullard.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> That suspected Mullard is the brown base third tube from left in the pictures that showed 4 tubes.  Fivre,
> Tungsram, Mullard, Cossor .   Is that one a fake too?  just for the knowledge the problem on this one has been solved.


 

 The two on the right are both Brimars.


----------



## rosgr63

100% of CCCP origin, made for Mullard.
  The smooth T-plates are a give away.
  I bet they also have a disc getter.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Here is a Mullard 6SN7GT


 

 Nope. Another Brimar.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The one the left looks like a FIVRE Brown base and the one on the right like a Brimar.
> Of course I could be very wrong.


 

 Yes, yet another Brimar, and you could be correct about FIVRE. If so, I have one question. Are the tubes in post #985 FIVREs as well?


----------



## rosgr63

You are getting too good Oskari.
  Grey angled plates, brown base, nice glass dome, I am almost certain they are.
   
  And here is a nice Philips made at the Monza plant for Philips.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





oskari said:


> That doesn't change the fact that the tubes should read "Made in USSR". They don't have to be fakes, though. The Mullard brand could have been applied legally—but the tubes certainly weren't made by Mullard.


 


  Right.  There is no question that toward the end of Mullard, they were buying tubes from Russia and branding them Mullard.  It is very misleading that they stamped them "Great Britain", but they seem to have done just that.
   
  The "inverted cup" getter is a 100% certain sign of a Russian tube, as Stavros said, but as he also said, the plates of the tubes in that picture are also a dead giveaway.


----------



## rosgr63

[size=medium]Rob I would say the inverted cup getter is typically British, but the saucer type flat disc getter is typical USSR.
   
​[/size]


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> [size=medium]Rob I would say the inverted cup getter is typically British, but the saucer type flat disc getter is typical USSR.
> 
> ​[/size]


 
   
  The Russian getter isn't really "flat", but saucer is probably a better word than cup, you're right.  Anyway once you know what they look like they are very easy to spot


----------



## rosgr63

Right, they are not flat but look like a UFO!


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> You are getting too good Oskari.
> Grey angled plates, brown base, nice glass dome, I am almost certain they are.
> 
> And here is a nice Philips made at the Monza plant for Philips.


 

 Now, this is getting complicated. If it was made in Monza, it was made in a Philips factory. Philips bought (yet again!) the Zenith plant there.
   
  The FIVRE plant was in Pavia, as was the SICTE plant.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> This is another pair of Mullard 6SN7's.  I don't know much about the tube structure but they
> seem to be different than the Russian pairs above.  Are they truly Mullard?


 
   
  One more time, there aren't any true 6SN7 valves made by Mullard. Branded—yes. Made—none.
   
  Mullard, however, had their ECC3x series valves, none of which are true 6SN7s.


----------



## rosgr63

I have RCA branded tubes made by ATES in Italy.
  I have to ask Paolo for more info, but it's very complicated I agree.


----------



## Oskari

… and the ATES tube plant was in L'Aquila.


----------



## kiertijai

*One more time, there aren't any true 6SN7 valves made by Mullard. Branded—yes. Made—none.*
   
*Mullard, however, had their ECC3x series valves, none of which are true 6SN7s.*
   
  why do they let this happen to their brand? because they want to keep the production cost down? 
  Are the word  "Mullard" made in England   made by the Mullard or are they fake?
  The  Mullard tubes (Stavros)  was also identified by one of the Thai member as the Brimar because of the code .
   
  So the Mullard that was made in russia is "Remark" not "Rebranded"  and this was done by Mullard itself.
  Are Stavros's pair are fake or intentionally done by Mullard? , then it should be called "remark" not "rebranded"
  I got confused here too.


----------



## Sesam

I'm really curious about trying out the Synergy Hifi/Create Audio 6SN7 tubes, anyone know a place that sells them matched?. Or at a lower price for that matter, I mean there must be some cheap Chinese sellers out there  
   
  Though maybe it is not that crucial to match the drivers with the WA22?.


----------



## Skylab

The thing is that the 6SN7 was a *US* tube. Eventually some UK makers started to make some, but only due to the demand for the tube in the USA.
   
  The whole point of "Brimar" is that they made US type tubes - Brimar stood for "British Manufactured American Radio" (valves) and as such used all American designations. In fact, Brimar/STC was a UK subsidiary of the American giant ITT (International Telephone and Telegraph).


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Brimar stood for "British Manufactured American Radio" (valves) and as such used all American designations.


 

 <Johnny Carson voice> I did not know that. </Johnny Carson voice>


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have RCA branded tubes made by ATES in Italy.
> I have to ask Paolo for more info, but it's very complicated I agree.


 


  Now there is an interesting score.  I could see these going for cheap under the radar on fleabay since most would take it for what it looks like:  an RCA 6SN7GTB.  The micas seem to be the giveaway, they don't have the "teeth" holding them against the glass you typically see on US made RCA tubes.  Actually that makes me wonder how they control microphonics in that tube since there doesn't really seem to be anything holding the micas against the glass at all.


----------



## Wedge

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The thing is that the 6SN7 was a *US* tube. Eventually some UK makers started to make some, but only due to the demand for the tube in the USA.
> 
> The whole point of "Brimar" is that they made US type tubes - Brimar stood for "British Manufactured American Radio" (valves) and as such used all American designations. In fact, Brimar/STC was a UK subsidiary of the American giant ITT (International Telephone and Telegraph).


 

 On November 1st that last remaining remnant of ITT in electronics and communications will be known as something else, haha.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





wedge said:


> On November 1st that last remaining remnant of ITT in electronics and communications will be known as something else, haha.


 


  A shame to see it all go downhill.  When I see cheap junky tvs and stereos in stores labeled RCA and Sylvania I can't help but see irony since those brands used to stand for quality and innovation.  I've gotten so used to thinking about Sylvania as a great brand I have to remind myself that it isn't one *today*.....


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Now there is an interesting score.  I could see these going for cheap under the radar on fleabay since most would take it for what it looks like:  an RCA 6SN7GTB.  The micas seem to be the giveaway, they don't have the "teeth" holding them against the glass you typically see on US made RCA tubes.  Actually that makes me wonder how they control microphonics in that tube since there doesn't really seem to be anything holding the micas against the glass at all.


 

 Actually they are not microphonic.
  They both look exactly the same, one is silk screened as 6SN7GTB and the other as 6SN7GT.
  The micas are semicircular and rest on the glass to give the added support.
  Combined with a long glass RCA 7N7 they sound fine on my SP PPX3-6SN7.


----------



## Skylab

The RCA and Sylvania brands are owned by European companies today.  Tompson the French consumer Electroncis giant owns RCA, and OSRAM, a division of Siemens in Germany owns Sylvania.  Of the Big Three US tube makers, only GE is a strong US company today.
   
  Of course even in the tube heyday, all three of those companies did much more than make tubes.  And while GE is a very large company today, they don't make much in the way of consumer electronics anymore.


----------



## rosgr63

Talking about GE just now I am evaluating a pair of GE 6F8G Black Glass.


----------



## Skylab

Wile there really isn't a famous GE 6SN7, GE made some GREAT tubes, especially some of the small 9-pin types.  LOVE their black-plate triple-mica 5751's for example.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The RCA and Sylvania brands are owned by European companies today.  Tompson the French consumer Electroncis giant owns RCA, and OSRAM, a division of Siemens in Germany owns Sylvania.  Of the Big Three US tube makers, only GE is a strong US company today.
> 
> Of course even in the tube heyday, all three of those companies did much more than make tubes.  And while GE is a very large company today, they don't make much in the way of consumer electronics anymore.


 


  I thought rights to the Sylvania brand were owned by Funai?  Guess my tv manufacturer knowledge is starting to slip.    I just think it's a shame how those companies could not adapt with the times and basically faded away by the 90's.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Wile there really isn't a famous GE 6SN7, GE made some GREAT tubes, especially some of the small 9-pin types.  LOVE their black-plate triple-mica 5751's for example.


 


  I know this isn't 6SN7 related, but are GE rectifier tubes considered good in general?  I always go to Tung Sol or Sylvania first, but I'm looking at a couple of lesser sought rectifiers for something and most of what is popping up is GE made (or branded something else and obviously GE manufactured).  No need to avoid them if they are actually good tubes after all.


----------



## Skylab

Funai owns the rights to the Sylvania name for TVs and DVD players.  But to the extent there is still a "real" Sylvania anymore, especially as it relates to tubes, it's the light bulb manufacturer, which is a division of Osram :  http://www.sylvania.com/


----------



## rosgr63

I like the GE 5692 Black Base and the 6SN7GTB with the Light Bridge on top.
  Otherwise GE are very ordinary as Rob said.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The thing is that the 6SN7 was a *US* tube. Eventually some UK makers started to make some, but only due to the demand for the tube in the USA.


 
   
  Are you sure it was just that?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> why do they let this happen to their brand? because they want to keep the production cost down?


 
   
  Basically all the manufacturers supplied tubes made by other manufacturers. It was very common. Nobody produced all the types after all. Cost and availability are common issues, you know.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Are you sure it was just that?


 


  I should have been more clear - 6SN7 is a US tube _designation._  There were clearly other tubes made with similar specs, like the Russian 6H8C, but those were developed because of the pervasiveness of the 6SN7.


----------



## kiertijai

I have got one more offer:   Mullard 6SN7GT , another pair I am certain that they look like the Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY
  .


----------



## Blackmore

Those Mullards can be UK made Tungsram. What kind of plates they have?
   
  On the left are Brimars
  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I have got one more offer:   Mullard 6SN7GT , another pair I am certain that they look like the Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY
> .


----------



## Skylab

Yes indeed, the 6SN7GTY are Brimar made by STC in the Oldway UK factory.


----------



## rosgr63

British Tungsram was never a member of BVA.
  I would have thought Mullard would have chosen a BVA member like Brimar or STC or MOV.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> British Tungsram was never a member of BVA.
> I would have thought Mullard would have chosen a BVA member like Brimar or STC or MOV.


 

 BVA was a cartel of which Mullard was a member. British Tungsram wasn't, and that's what made Tungsram a useful tool for Mullard. Branding their valves Tungsram instead of Mullard, they were able to supply their products to clients ineligible under BVA rules.
   
  British Tungsram was one of those many companies that were bought by Philips over the years. In practice, it was taken over by Mullard. Mullard, of course, was Philips UK, so to speak.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Those Mullards can be UK made Tungsram. What kind of plates they have?


 
   
  They do look the part. If they are Tungsrams, that "Made in Holland" is a bizarre twist.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> another pair I am certain that they look like the Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY


 
   
  Yes, those are Brimars or STC/Brimars or maybe, in fact, just STCs.
   
  a) STC sold Brimar to Thorn in 1960.
  b) Those valves have 1972 and 1971 date lables.
  c) According to http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm, FE = STC, Oldway.
   
  If the valves indeed were made in an STC factory more than a decade after STC divested Brimar, isn't Brimar essentially a misnomer?


----------



## Blackmore

It will not surprise me if they are Philips made after all.
  
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> They do look the part. If they are Tungsrams, that "Made in Holland" is a bizarre twist.


----------



## kiertijai

Here's the providing info.
   
*I also have two NOS Boxed MINT Mullard Military B65 6SN7GTY tested 100% *
   
*and two Mullard Industrial coated 6SN7GT made in Harleem. *
   
*All tubes have boxed 100% tested as they are MINT*


----------



## Blackmore

Well, *Harleem made* makes things clear now. Can you ask about plates, but I think they are flat, like RCA's or something. Pity not Eindhoven, this way you will be getting POPE kind , however not sure what he asking for these, but I wouldnt do anything crazy...

  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> Here's the providing info.
> 
> *I also have two NOS Boxed MINT Mullard Military B65 6SN7GTY tested 100% *
> 
> ...


----------



## kiertijai

Dear Blackmore,
     Thanks for the info.   I would not do crazy purchase.
     I have not been told about the price yet.  I will ask him about the plate.
     What is the difference between the Harleem made, Eindhoven  ....... Philips Pope, Philips Miniwatt,
  Chelmer  .   I also read once in the upscale audio once that the Pope 6SN7 is one of the best sounding 6SN7
  but the seller (not upscale audio, they won't sell without another purchase of audio) asked for very high price so
  I did not buy that one.


----------



## rosgr63

[size=small]Philips Electrical Industries Ltd acquired a controlling interest in British Tungsram in 1952 and arranged for Mullard to take over its management.[/size]
  [size=small]It ceased manufacture at the end of April, 1956, when the factory was closed and the production of Tungsram valves was taken over by Mullard.[/size]
  [size=small]If the tubes were made after 1956 they cannot be Tungsram but Mullard.[/size]
  The date codes will give us the clue.


----------



## kiertijai

The seller said that in fact the tubes are made from Eindhoven , Holland and they have logo on the tube
  and he do have the original box.
  I was offerred by another seller about the Philips Pope 6SN7 GT but he would like to sell by quad which I don't need
  that much, here are the pictures:


----------



## kiertijai

Are these Tungsram?


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]Maybe it's me, but in my opinion MINIWATT is the same tube as POPE, cos the last one is the commercial brand only, so, the sellers taking a huge advantage of the very small batch that been possibly made, that's all. To say that they are the best sounding is one or two man opinion, because not that many others own one and that's what makes some of us crazy. To me, give me more Mullard, Fivre or Brimar made, also not cheap, but much more available and easy to get.[/size]
  [size=10pt]I owned MINIWATT ones, not 6SN7, but ECC82 or ECC83, don’t remember exactly, found them nothing special, sonically I mean.[/size]
   
   

  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> The seller said that in fact the tubes are made from Eindhoven , Holland and they have logo on the tube
> and he do have the original box.
> I was offerred by another seller about the Philips Pope 6SN7 GT but he would like to sell by quad which I don't need
> that much, here are the pictures:


----------



## Blackmore

I had a pair of the one on the right, thats the Tungsram, they were not my liking either.

  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> Are these Tungsram?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> I had a pair of the one on the right, thats the Tungsram, they were not my liking either.


 

 I agree, only I like mine.
   
  I wonder what the other one is. Does anybody recognize the construction?


----------



## Blackmore

The first one looks like this one http://natubes.com/data/images/product/large_193.gif , so, I think its Tungrsam as well.

  
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> I agree, only I like mine.
> 
> I wonder what the other one is. Does anybody recognize the construction?


----------



## kiertijai

For these Tungsram's,   I like it more than the Fivre that I purchased at the same time and may be more
  than the Brimar 6sn7 long bottle.   Those are good tubes though.
  I do have the Philips Miniwatts ECC32 and ECC33 ,  I think they are similar to the Mullard's  sonically.
  I don't know about the Pope but at the time the seller wanted to sell as a quad abd I didn't want to
  use that much money , may be  a pair should be enough for me.   I tried to take a look how much was
  the asking but did not get that info.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> What is the difference between the Harleem made, Eindhoven  ....... Philips Pope, Philips Miniwatt,
> Chelmer


 
   
  I suppose that should be Heerlen instead of Haarlem, both cities in the Netherlands. Philips had a major tube plant in Heerlen. I cannot comment about differences between plants in Heerlen, Sittard, Eindhoven or anywhere else.
   
  Philips, Miniwatt, Pope are all just brands of the company. Philips also happens to be the name of the company, in short form, that is. The brand printed on a tube doesn't guarantee much of its origin, if anything at all.
   
  This is Chelmer: http://www.chelmervalve.co.uk/


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> The first one looks like this one http://natubes.com/data/images/product/large_193.gif , so, I think its Tungrsam as well.


 

 It is actually the right one that has a matching construction. The left one has a different plate structure.
   
  Different versions made by British Tungsram perhaps? Or something completely different?
   
  This, by the way, is supposed to be a Tungsram 6SN7GT made in Hungary:
   

  (http://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?11090825494429)


----------



## rosgr63

Did CCCP make tubes for  Tungsram?
  Look at the plates of the tube on the right (Tungsram, Selectron by FIVRE, Tungsram).
  BTW I don't care much about Tungsram either and are nowhere near as nice as the tubes Blackmore mentioned.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Did CCCP make tubes for  Tungsram?


 
   
  It certainly looks like they did but that is not very surprising since we have seen those tubes branded Mullard as well.


----------



## rosgr63

Did Ken Rad make tubes for Brimar?
   
  This pair, is labeled Brimar with grey glass which is uncommon for Brimar and a silver band at the bottom of the glass typical of Ken Rad.


----------



## Blackmore

I expect Brimar to have round plates, but they do look like RCA as well, however the base is not typical RCA?, mean, RCA's is shorter.
  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Did Ken Rad make tubes for Brimar?
> 
> This pair, is labeled Brimar with grey glass which is uncommon for Brimar and a silver band at the bottom of the glass typical of Ken Rad.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Did Ken Rad make tubes for Brimar?
> 
> This pair, is labeled Brimar with grey glass which is uncommon for Brimar and a silver band at the bottom of the glass typical of Ken Rad.


 

 I found this photo of a pair of RCA tubes looking pretty similar:
   
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/RCA+VT-231+1940s+JAN+CRC+6SN7GT+2+-+USA.jpg.html
   
  What do you think?


----------



## Skylab

I agree...Those are almost surely RCA.


----------



## rosgr63

They look very similar, but I can't see if the RCA have a silver band on the bottom of the glass like the Brimar.
   
  So it looks as though US makers during WWII made tubes for Brimar.
   
  It's getting very complicated, I learn something new every day.
   
  BTW they sound nice.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> They look very similar, but I can't see if the RCA have a silver band on the bottom of the glass like the Brimar.


 

 I think you need more coffee! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Look at the left example!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> I think you need more coffee!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Yes I do!
   
  Just thought it would be more shiny, reflective (what a cheap excuse!)


----------



## Xcalibur255

Most of the RCAs I've seen don't have that slim band of getter visible, but there seem to have been batches where the glass coating stopped a little short and produced just that.


----------



## rosgr63

Has anybody come across this oval type 6F8G plate similar to the 5Y3 plate?
  This is not a Tung Sol or National Union type round plate.


----------



## Oskari

Ken-Rad?
   

   

   
  (http://www.review33.com/m/forum_msg.php?db=1&topic=20050423101410&start=6540&sort=1)


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks.
  Yes they look the same.
   
  So we have 5 types of 6F8G plates:
   
  1.Flat Plates.
  2.Flat Plates Staggered.
  3.Round Plates Tung Sol Style.
  4.Round Plates National Union Style.
  5.Oval Plates Ken Rad Style.
  6.T-Plates Sylvania Style.
   
  Is there more?


----------



## john57

T plates maybe?


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks John, I forgot them.
  Sylvania T-Plates


----------



## dminches

I want to roll some 6SN7s into a unit that current takes 6CG7s.  What 9 pin to 8 pin adapters are recommended?


----------



## john57

[size=medium]2359Glenn makes the best adapters and he is active on this fourm[/size]
   
  [size=medium]http://www.ebay.com/itm/6CG7-6FQ7-Tube-6SN7-Tube-Adaptor-pair-/220889318085?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item336e0782c5[/size]


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





john57 said:


> [size=medium]2359Glenn makes the best adapters and he is active on this fourm[/size]
> 
> [size=medium]http://www.ebay.com/itm/6CG7-6FQ7-Tube-6SN7-Tube-Adaptor-pair-/220889318085?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item336e0782c5[/size]


 

 I actually have some of those but I think he wanted to go the other direction.  6SN7>6CG7.


----------



## dminches

You are correct.  I want to use an 8 pin (6SN7) iso a 9 pin (6CG7).


----------



## rosgr63

Ask Glenn, I am sure he can make you some.
  His adapters are the best I have seen and used.


----------



## dminches

Unfortunately Glenn can't make them any more, but Jack Wu is making me a pair since they are the same adapters he makes for people who want to use 6SN7s in a WA6. 
   
  Now I need to find someone who can cut out 2 holes in the DAC cover since the tubes will not fit inside with the adapters. Anyone know someone who can do this?


----------



## Audio-Omega

I have a Brimar CV1988 sounding louder than a Sylvania Bad Boy.  Does that mean the Sylvania is running low on gas ?


----------



## xinque

Anyone know how a Sylvania Chrome Dome sounds and how I can identify one from all the other Sylvania tubes?


----------



## TheWuss

Quote: 





xinque said:


> Anyone know how a Sylvania Chrome Dome sounds and how I can identify one from all the other Sylvania tubes?


 

 a great tube, and a relative bargain.  because it isn't so rare, and doesn't command the prices of some other 1950's and 1960's 6SN7 types.
  but, it is known for being very quiet.  pretty well balanced.  maybe a touch lightly balanced (but not bright).  open, airy, great soundstage.
   
  how to identify it?
  slightly tall bottle, clear.  with top getter, and lots of getter flashing, creating the "chrome" top. 
  black plates.  black base.  with sylvania logo in yellow.  but i believe i have seen some in green.  or perhaps that's just the aging of the painted lettering...
   
  it looks like this:


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> I have a Brimar CV1988 sounding louder than a Sylvania Bad Boy.  Does that mean the Sylvania is running low on gas ?


 

 I found out that the same type tube but of different batch can sound different.
  If you can get the Sylvania tested you'll get a better idea.
  If it sounds good I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## Blackmore

Some of my tubes just louder and I am not sure why.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





thewuss said:


> a great tube, and a relative bargain.  because it isn't so rare, and doesn't command the prices of some other 1950's and 1960's 6SN7 types.
> but, it is known for being very quiet.  pretty well balanced.  maybe a touch lightly balanced (but not bright).  open, airy, great soundstage.
> 
> how to identify it?
> ...


 

 It depends upon what you actually mean by Chrome Dome.  If referring to the original tube that was first called this, then this isn't the same tube.  The Chrome Dome has the long plate version of the Sylvania t-plate, the same plates you'll find in the metal base W's, and the getter flashing extends very far down the tube, usually at least 3/4 down the glass on one side to the point where you can barely see the plates.  The original chrome dome is nearly a match for the black glass tung sol and probably even more rare now.  To my ears the Chrome Dome is the definition of treble done right.  Sylvania made may tubes with top getter flashing in the years after the early 50's when the real deal went away, but they are not a match for the real thing sonically.  At least not in my opinion..... personal preference is of course always your best guide.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Actually the Brimar sounded a bit louder than all my other tubes.  I'm not going to worry about it since you guys have experienced the same issue as well.


----------



## Blackmore

Do you mean these?
   




   
   
   
   
  Or these?
   
   




   
   
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> It depends upon what you actually mean by Chrome Dome.  If referring to the original tube that was first called this, then this isn't the same tube.  The Chrome Dome has the long plate version of the Sylvania t-plate, the same plates you'll find in the metal base W's, and the getter flashing extends very far down the tube, usually at least 3/4 down the glass on one side to the point where you can barely see the plates.  The original chrome dome is nearly a match for the black glass tung sol and probably even more rare now.  To my ears the Chrome Dome is the definition of treble done right.  Sylvania made may tubes with top getter flashing in the years after the early 50's when the real deal went away, but they are not a match for the real thing sonically.  At least not in my opinion..... personal preference is of course always your best guide.


----------



## rosgr63

Blackmore, these and the ones TheWuss has mentioned have the GTB type plates of later production years.


----------



## Blackmore

Oh, so, maybe these

  




   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Blackmore, these and the ones TheWuss has mentioned have the GTB type plates of later production years.


----------



## Currawong

It's interesting how the EH/Sovteks I took a chance on not long ago, which are a bit too smooth to be a good match in the Stacker with the LCD-2s seem to be good for the LCD-3s, which are a bit more analytical. They still seem to give a nice, open sound though.
   
  I noticed a post by Skylab some pages back (it's been a while since I've read this thread) about the Nu tubes being bright, but not more detailed, which I have to agree with. One of the pair I have was playing up a bit though.


----------



## rosgr63

Currawong I think you'll like the 5692 better than the Sovtek with the LCD3.
  The Sylvania Yellow Brand is what I have in mind.
  I have not tried the Stacker nor the LCD3, but think they'll be a good match.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The Motorola tube is the one I'm talking about Blackmore.  The W's with the support rod in your third picture are yet another type of tube.  They are also nice, but not as nice as the chrome dome IMO.


----------



## Blackmore

O.k. thanks, I am not sure, but the seller of this Motorola/Sylvania said its from 1952. I never tried one, so, are there any other tube to compare with?

  
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The Motorola tube is the one I'm talking about Blackmore.  The W's with the support rod in your third picture are yet another type of tube.  They are also nice, but not as nice as the chrome dome IMO.


----------



## Xcalibur255

To my ears the chrome dome Sylvania just sounds "right" both in terms of tone and presentation.  It's sort of like a cross between the Bad Boy and the TS round plate.  I wouldn't say that's entirely right but I can't think of how else to describe it.  I actually prefer it to the tung sol in some ways, it has better tone IMO and the transparency is nearly as good.  All it is lacking is the tung sol's deep three-dimensional sense of image and staging, but I dare say the Sylvanias portrayal in this regard is actually more realistic and faithful to source than the magic of the tung sol.  I definitely prefer it to the Sylvania Bad Boy.  It is just a better tube all around, albeit less romantic sounding and airy.
   
  1952 would be the right year for these.  As far as I've been able to determine these were only made up to the end of '52 or maybe early '53.  After that the tooling was changed over and the GTA style tube appears.  I've only ever seen these with production dates from 51 and 52 personally, and all of mine are from '52.


----------



## adhoc

Hey guys, just thought I'd drop in here and say hi. Great to see that there are still tons of 6SN7 lovers out there!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





adhoc said:


> Hey guys, just thought I'd drop in here and say hi.


 

 Hello,
   
  Please note I created this thread out of respect to your wonderful threads which are my ALL time favourites, I have learned so much reading them.
  I thought this way we could keep your threads as Reference Material and discuss various issues here.
 I admire you hard work and hope to learn more from you and other knowledgeable people.
  Thanks for droping in.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Please note I created this thread out of respect to your wonderful threads which are my ALL time favourites, I have learned so much reading them.
> I thought this way we could keep your threads as Reference Material and discuss various issues here.
> ...


 

 x2!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





adhoc said:


> Hey guys, just thought I'd drop in here and say hi. Great to see that there are still tons of 6SN7 lovers out there!


 


  Your contribution has been fantastique!


----------



## Rob N

Has anyone come across tubes (not necessarily 6SN7) with painted tops where the amount of paint decreases as the tubes are used ie alot of paint NOS,no paint used[size=8pt][/size]


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob, I have some of these wonderful NU 6F8G tubes with the yellow paint.  
  However I have not run them a lot yet to find out after how many run hours the paint goes.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is a photo


----------



## kiertijai

@rosgr63 I have seen one seller from Italy, he has VT99s (6F8Ga) with yellow paint of NU, Kenrad and Tungsol
  but they are not cheap and I would like to know which pair is the best or what is the sound signature?
  I have the 6F8G Kenrad, NU , Raytheon and find that Kenrad & Raytheon are excellent.  I think they should
  be the same between VT99 and 6F8G's, is that correct?  However I don't know about the Tungsol VT99.
  He also said that the yellow paint is to show us that the tubes are new, rarely used.


----------



## rosgr63

VT99 is the military version of 6F8G, so SQ wise they should be very similar.
  Tung Sol comes with Flat Plates and Round Plates.
  To me the Tung Sol RP VT99 sound very similar to the TS RP 6SN7.


----------



## kiertijai

@rosgr63 thanks,  I am asking for the pictures from the seller.
  As far as I know we prefer the round plate over the flat plate for 6F8G's
  His NU is round plates but I don't know about his Tung sol or Kenrad.


----------



## kiertijai

Here is the picture of the Tungsol 6F8G's.  There are flat plate and round plate versions.  I think
  the round plate version is very rare.


----------



## kiertijai

A closer look of two different types of plates of Tungsol 6F8G's


----------



## kiertijai

There are also Raytheon 6F8G with quad plate (not flat plate nor round plate)


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> A closer look of two different types of plates of Tungsol 6F8G's


 
   
   
  The plates are the same, the mica are different


----------



## kiertijai

@Stavros,  yes I think  both are round plates.
  Here are the pictures of National Union 6F8G with yellow paint on top


----------



## kiertijai

The yellow paint fades with use


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The plates are the same, the mica are different


 

 The mica are for sure different, but the plates may be as well.  There is a flat/ladder plate version of the TS black-glass 6F8G.  It's hard to tell from that picture, though.


----------



## rosgr63

Rob the 6F8G Tung Sol Flat Plates have more of a square type mica with two side supports.
   
  Here is the RP and FP Tung Sol


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> There are also Raytheon 6F8G with quad plate (not flat plate nor round plate)


 


  They look like T-Plates


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Currawong I think you'll like the 5692 better than the Sovtek with the LCD3.
> The Sylvania Yellow Brand is what I have in mind.
> I have not tried the Stacker nor the LCD3, but think they'll be a good match.


 

 I have some Sylvania 12CG7s here which I really like, so I might have to track down some indeed. Thanks for the suggestion.
   


  Quote: 





adhoc said:


> Hey guys, just thought I'd drop in here and say hi. Great to see that there are still tons of 6SN7 lovers out there!


 

 I think we'll have to work on fixing the links in your signature. Let me know if you'd like help with this.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is another interesting 6F8G


----------



## Xcalibur255

That's a cool looking set of tubes there.  They look like they could be pre-WWII vintage.


----------



## rosgr63

They are French Radiofotos Grammont, one black and one brown base.
  They are clearly marked 6F8G by the factory but my Tube Doctor advised me not to use them.
   
  They could be 6K7G pentodes!


----------



## GMF2010

Unless I'm missing something, did I just steal this?
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380386768237?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## Xcalibur255

Offset plates.  Yep, you just stole it.  Congrats.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> They are French Radiofotos Grammont, one black and one brown base.
> They are clearly marked 6F8G by the factory but my Tube Doctor advised me not to use them.
> 
> They could be 6K7G pentodes!


 

 They certainly don't look like double triodes.


----------



## rosgr63

I got the chance to get an original Philips 6SN7GT.
  First impressions are those of of an average tube.
   
  Here it is:

   
  Base markings


----------



## Oskari

Looks nice.
   
  This one is easier to read:
   

   
  r90 44H? Eindhoven, August 1954?


----------



## rosgr63

Here is another view of the bottom.
  90 44H or 44A.
  The first character before the 90 I can't read.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The first character before the 90 I can't read.


 

 It must be an r because r9 = 6SN7GT.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the clarification


----------



## dminches

Are Cossor 6SN7 GTBs good sounding tubes?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Are Cossor 6SN7 GTBs good sounding tubes?


 

 Who made them for Cossor? That's your first question.


----------



## dminches

You tell me  http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1328034831&/Cossor-6SN7GT-nos/nib-(mar-195


----------



## dminches

Mullard?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Mullard?


 

 Brimar.


----------



## dminches

Are they anything special?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Looks like Brimar to me too.  I have Brimar in the clear glass.  NIce tube, but not special compared to the best.  They excel in texture and palpability in the midrange.


----------



## rosgr63

This looks like a Brimar not a bad sounding tube but the price is high.
  Of course you are paying for a rebrand so that could be the reason.
  BTW it's not a GTB but a GT tube.


----------



## kiertijai

I have purchased one Cossor like this from ebay, it looks like the Brimar 6SN7GT (BVA) and sounds very similar.
  Every letters on the tube of this one = mine.  It was sold anyway.
  Mine costs around 100$ but I think mine may be also overpriced.


----------



## kiertijai

I would like to ask what is the sound characteristics of this Sylvania VT99?
  Which Sylvania 6SN7's are they similar to?  Are they neutral?
  What is the estimated life of the VT99 comparing to other 6F8G's?
  thanks


----------



## rosgr63

VT-99 are the military version of 6F8G, which means they were made and tested to a more stringent standard.
  I am guessing the life should be the same or a little better.
  A lot depends on the amp, some drive tubes harder others not.
   
  To me they have the sound signature of a nice Sylvania 6SN7GT with T-Plates but a bit smoother.
  If you like the Sylvania 6SN7GT T-Plates sound you'll like these.
  Definitely worth getting and trying.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Here's an interesting specimen:
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mullard-Shield-6SN7-GT-Yellow-Print-Stereo-Tube-ebs-/180762849082?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a164e2f3a
   
  Clearly not British made, but clearly not Russian made either.  It looks closest to a US made Sylvania t-plate, and the white base is interesting.


----------



## Blackmore

Just wonder if that white rubber? binding are factory installed. I have seen this tube hanging for a while, but the price is just to high and only because of Mullard branding/package, I guess.

  
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Here's an interesting specimen:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mullard-Shield-6SN7-GT-Yellow-Print-Stereo-Tube-ebs-/180762849082?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a164e2f3a
> 
> Clearly not British made, but clearly not Russian made either.  It looks closest to a US made Sylvania t-plate, and the white base is interesting.


----------



## Skylab

You can see the US style hexagon tube type designator under the Mullard yellow paint.  That is almost certainly a Sylvania.


----------



## Rob N

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Hi Rob, I have some of these wonderful NU 6F8G tubes with the yellow paint.
> However I have not run them a lot yet to find out after how many run hours the paint goes.


 

 I bought a quad of these from the Italian eBay seller they arrived today


----------



## rosgr63

Great choice, please let us have your impressions.


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]Didn't pay any attention at first, but on the box you can clearly read Foreign made, but also there is an grey print that US tubes are using, just behind the yellow 6SN7 GT, so, like already mentioned, probably Sylvania.[/size]
   
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Here's an interesting specimen:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mullard-Shield-6SN7-GT-Yellow-Print-Stereo-Tube-ebs-/180762849082?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a164e2f3a
> 
> Clearly not British made, but clearly not Russian made either.  It looks closest to a US made Sylvania t-plate, and the white base is interesting.


----------



## rosgr63

I didn't care much about the Philips 6SN7 but these two Belgian Mullard sound wonderful.
  Very nice balanced and detailed sound.


----------



## dminches

Where did you pick up those babies?


----------



## rosgr63

Audiophile Purgatory!


----------



## dminches

I guess I can't blame you for keeping your tube sources secret.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I guess I can't blame you for keeping your tube sources secret.


 


  It was a joke, I got them on ebay.
  I don't mind sharing my sources, that's what this thread is for.
   
  There is no secrets under the sun.
  I'll be more than happy to give more info I am just a PM away.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I must always be checking ebay at the wrong times.... I never find any rare goodies like that there.


----------



## rosgr63

Has anybody compared the metal and micanol based MOV B65?
  What are their similarities and differences?


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Has anybody compared the metal and micanol based MOV B65?
> What are their similarities and differences?


 


 Have you tried the 13D2


----------



## 2359glenn




----------



## rosgr63

Hi Glenn, yes I have tried the 13D2 but it doesn't sound anything special to me.
  A beautiful tube for collection but nothing special sonically.
   
  Please note these are my impressions with my equipment, others might find them excellent with different set ups.


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Hi Glenn, yes I have tried the 13D2 but it doesn't sound anything special to me.
> A beautiful tube for collection but nothing special sonically.
> 
> Please note these are my impressions with my equipment, others might find them excellent with different set ups.


 

 Hello
   
  Actually I used the 13D1/25SN7 the same tube with a 25 volt heater and thought they sounded really good. The 13D1 can be had cheep not many amps that can use a 25SN7
  so not much call for this tube. I stopped making amplifiers that use a 25SN7/1633/13D1 everybody wants a 6SN7 but really good 1633s can be had for cheep I have a KenRad
  that sounds really good that I paid $4 for and bought 4 RCA gray glass for $7. alot less then 6SN7s go for.


----------



## rosgr63

Glenn one of my tube gurus is running a B36 directly in a 6SN7 circuit with great success.


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Glenn one of my tube gurus is running a B36 directly in a 6SN7 circuit with great success.


 

 so it is running at 6.3 volts even though it is a 12.6 volt tube???


----------



## rosgr63

Yes, and the tubes are fine.


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Yes, and the tubes are fine.


 

 Running a tube at lower heater voltage is not going to do anything to the tube. But maybe sound as good as it can reduced emission
  lower gain. At one point I was going to make a adapter with built in voltage doubler to use a 12SN7 in a 6SN7 socket. Mostly
  For Tung-Sol round plate that are going for $500 a pair mow and the 12SN7 version can be got for $150. But I haven't done this
  afraid of switching noise from the diodes in the voltage doubler


----------



## rosgr63

Glenn I could use them on my SP PPX3-6SN7 for the Power Tubes position, where noise issues are not as critical.
  What do you think?


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Glenn I could use them on my SP PPX3-6SN7 for the Power Tubes position, where noise issues are not as critical.
> What do you think?


 


 It might be OK I will have to get some SMT capacitors that can fit in a adapter. It won't work in your PPX3-6SN7 the 6SN7s are running
  on DC voltage and will have to have AC to do a easy voltage doubler that will fit in a adapter. I don't want to use a IC that might put
  high frequency noise into everything and hard to make it all fit in a adapter.


----------



## kiertijai

*Glenn one of my tube gurus is running a B36 directly in a 6SN7 circuit with great success*.
      @Stavros,  Can I use the B36 with the BA as 6SN7's?
      What is the recommended B36?   Thanks for the info.


----------



## rosgr63

Well you've done such an excellent job with it, making it safe, upgrading it and you know much better than me.
   
  So the only alternative would be the driver position, right?


----------



## 2359glenn

Hello
   
  Yes you can try it in the driver but not as the output.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is the Marconi B65 Black Base.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> *Glenn one of my tube gurus is running a B36 directly in a 6SN7 circuit with great success*.
> @Stavros,  Can I use the B36 with the BA as 6SN7's?
> What is the recommended B36?   Thanks for the info.


 


  I think you can use it, but I don't expect it to be any better than your B65.
   
  I am referring to the MOV B36.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Glenn one of my tube gurus is running a B36 directly in a 6SN7 circuit with great success.


 
  Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> so it is running at 6.3 volts even though it is a 12.6 volt tube???


 
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Yes, and the tubes are fine.


 
  Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> Running a tube at lower heater voltage is not going to do anything to the tube. But maybe sound as good as it can reduced emission lower gain.


 
   
  A 12SN7GT in place of a 6SN7GT? I'm sceptical. Who's gonna try this? Even if it works now, will it work in the long term?


----------



## Currawong

It's worked whenever I've forgotten to flip the switch to change the voltage.


----------



## dminches

Did Hitachi make their own tubes or did someone else?


----------



## Skylab

I'm almost certain Hitachi made tubes.


----------



## john57

I have a Hitachi 6SN7 tube and it is not a bad tube.


----------



## rosgr63

Hitachi and NEC were two of the biggest tube manufacturers in Japan.
  Raytheon and Channel Master also made tubes in Japan, or at least sold tubes marked as made in Japan.
   
  The Hitachi 6SN7GTB Black Plates is a very nice tube IMHO.


----------



## Oskari

Channel Master was and is a US company (http://www.channelmaster.com/aboutus.asp) but they certainly sold Japanese-made tubes.
   
  Raytheon stopped making tubes in the USA quite early on. They may have had something going on with Hitachi. There was a tube brand called Hit-Ray which carried the circular Hitachi symbol.


----------



## dminches

Is anyone interested in a pair of RCA 6SN7 VT231s (gray glass)?  There is a very nice quad for sale on ebay but I only need 2.
   
  PM me if you want to go in on this with me.  I will cover the shipping to you if you are in the US.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

How much are we talking here?


----------



## dminches

The quad was $300.  I ended up getting a pair for $150.  That sounds like a lot but you should see the other prices on ebay for these tubes.  It has gotten crazy.


----------



## Xcalibur255

NOS tubes in general have really gotten high just in the last year or so it seems.  I got my NOS greyglass for $50, and sold them again a little while back for the same price because their sound doesn't work for me.
   
  The price on BGRP  is starting to close in on the Osram B65's these days.  At least for good matched pairs.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> NOS tubes in general have really gotten high just in the last year or so it seems. * I got my NOS greyglass for $50, and sold them again a little while back for the same price because their sound doesn't work for me.*
> 
> The price on BGRP  is starting to close in on the Osram B65's these days.  At least for good matched pairs.


 

 And for that, I say thanks! I really like 'em (and the price was very fair).


----------



## Xcalibur255

Better they be used by somebody than sit in a box I say.  It's a shame some people in the hobby hoard tubes just for the sake of doing so.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Better they be used by somebody than sit in a box I say.  It's a shame some people in the hobby hoard tubes just for the sake of doing so.


----------



## gurus

Quote: 





dminches said:


> The quad was $300.  I ended up getting a pair for $150.  That sounds like a lot but you should see the other prices on ebay for these tubes.  It has gotten crazy.


 


  I could have sold you mine for less than that with the same manufacturing date codes.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Better they be used by somebody than sit in a box I say.  It's a shame some people in the hobby hoard tubes just for the sake of doing so.


 

 I am guilty sorry!
  It's not easy to part with a nice tube.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I am guilty sorry!
> It's not easy to part with a nice tube.


 


  Ha, no I didn't quite mean it that way.    I'd call what you do "exploring possibilities", not hoarding. 
   
  Of course people are free to do what they like, but some individuals buy far more of a single type and brand of tube than they could ever use in their lifetime, and there can only really be one intention for that.  It just makes it harder for others to enjoy the hobby on a reasonable budget.  Now if you have one or two of just about everything then I'd say you were just having fun testing the waters.


----------



## rosgr63

Well I am not like that.
  I buy different brands, variants, to test.
  If I like a specific tube I would buy a second pair just in case a tube becomes bad.
   
  Most important I like to share my experiences and would like others to do so too.
  It's a great way to learn.


----------



## MacedonianHero

So I just got my NOS VT-231 Sylvanias from Upscale Audio today...very impressed. Very clean and natural/neutral tubes. As well, very impressing imaging and bass. Highly recommended!


----------



## jc9394

How it compare to the Treasures?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> How it compare to the Treasures?


 

 I think the music flows a little easier from the Treasures, but the sound staging is a notch better with the Sylvanias (as is extension...both ways). I would agree with Rob (Skylab) that these might just be the most neutral 6SN7 variant that I've heard.
   
  After a few days or more listening, I'll report back.


----------



## jc9394

Thanks, I may need to pick up a pair to give them a try.  Are you using them with LCD or HD800?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> Thanks, I may need to pick up a pair to give them a try.  Are you using them with LCD or HD800?


 

 No worries.
   
  Tonight...HD800s. Tomorrow will be the LCD-3s. I'll report back then.


----------



## jc9394

I'm more interest with HD800 since I primary use beta22 to with LCD-2.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> I'm more interest with HD800 since I primary use beta22 to with LCD-2.


 

 In that case...they're keepers with the HD800s IMO.


----------



## dminches

MH, are these the ones you are using now?


----------



## juha

New production Tung-Sol sound nice and powerfull. Clearly really better than some NOS Sylvanias..


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> So I just got my NOS VT-231 Sylvanias from Upscale Audio today...very impressed. Very clean and natural/neutral tubes. As well, very impressing imaging and bass. Highly recommended!


 


  I greatly enjoy my Sylvanias as well.  If I go long enough without listening to the BGRP Tung Sol I start to think the Sylvania chrome dome is the best sounding tube I've ever heard.  Being second best is nothing to scoff at though.  The Sylvania presentation always feels easier to listen to IMO.  The detail is there in spades, but it is never being pushed in your face the way it can be with more aggressive sounding tubes.  I would definitely second them being natural, but for sheer neutrality Tung Sols seems to have it down a little better.  The Syls have a sweetness to them that I can't call neutral, though I can call it beautiful.


----------



## CEE TEE

^Hi Guys,
   
  I just got 5 of these, I promise to read through the entire thread but thought I'd ask how these compare to the* VT-231 *you really like...(I'm new to tubes!)
   
  [size=x-small]_1950s Sylvania *6SN7GTA* tube has a medium bottle, black plates, and a halo getter with lots of chrome flashing. The black base has green print with the Sylvania logo._[/size]
   
  [size=x-small] [/size]


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





dminches said:


> MH, are these the ones you are using now?


 

 Yessir.
   
  http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Sylvania-VT%252d231-%7B47%7D-6SN7GT.html


----------



## MacedonianHero

I think what amazes me most about these headphones is their sound staging abilities...even my HF-2s sound expansive with my WA22. I've never heard them sound this good.
   
  With my LCD-3s, they are definitely one of my favourite driver tubes as well.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Has anyone compared Sylvania VT-231 and Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy ?  I assume they are two separate models.


----------



## rosgr63

Bad Boys have Green Logos and 3 hole plates made in the early fifties.
   
  To me they sound different to the Sylvania VT-231 shown above.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Which one do you prefer ?
   
  My Bad Boy has 2 hole plates, made in 1949.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> I think the music flows a little easier from the Treasures, but the sound staging is a notch better with the Sylvanias (as is extension...both ways). I would agree with Rob (Skylab) that these might just be the most neutral 6SN7 variant that I've heard.
> 
> After a few days or more listening, I'll report back.


 


   
  Any updates?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> Any updates?


 


  Likely the most neutral tube I have heard yet. The sound staging is the best I've heard my WA22 offer. They are keepers for sure! Work really well with my LCD-3s!
   
  The Treasures are a bit smoother and quieter, but these offer a more balanced sound with wider/deeper imaging. They gave my HF-2's sound staging capabilities like I haven't heard before.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Likely the most neutral tube I have heard yet. The sound staging is the best I've heard my WA22 offer. They are keepers for sure! Work really well with my LCD-3s!
> 
> The Treasures are a bit smoother and quieter, but these offer a more balanced sound with wider/deeper imaging. They gave my HF-2's sound staging capabilities like I haven't heard before.


 


   
  Did you ever tried the TS BGRP?  I wonder if it is worth it if I mainly use the BGRP.
   
  Edit, I may just pick up a pair to give it a try myself.  Is yours the driver grade?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> Did you ever tried the TS BGRP?  I wonder if it is worth it if I mainly use the BGRP.


 

 Sorry I haven't yet.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Sorry I haven't yet.


 


   
  No worries, this is the part of fun on tube rolling.  Never know what you gets on the tube combos, mood, and music genre.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> No worries, this is the part of fun on tube rolling.  Never know what you gets on the tube combos, mood, and music genre.


 


  Well said.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Which one do you prefer ?
> 
> My Bad Boy has 2 hole plates, made in 1949.


 

 As per the Identification guide mentioned in post #1
   
*QUOTE*
*Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 “Bad Boy” *
_Also JAN-CHS-6SN7GT
 Made only from late 1951 (‘1-48’ examples seen) to 1952. Differs slightly in construction from ‘regular’ Sylvania rectangular top mica 6SN7GTs. Re-labeled bad boys are known to exist._
 Base: black, green labels marked ‘2-XX’ (where XX is the week of the year)
 Glass: clear
 Plates: black, T-plate with 3 holes per plate
 Getter: bottom, foil, flashing can extend up to 1/3 of way up tube
 Top mica: rectangular with 3 spikes on each of the shorter edges
 Other significant features: bottom mica is rectangular. When seen, date codes are vertically arranged (from top to bottom) ‘YWW’ with Y underlined. Y = last digit of year, WW = week number of year.
*UNQUOTE*
   
  It looks as though your tubes may not be Bad Boys.
   
  However, it doesn't really mater, if you like the sound enjoy them!


----------



## Audio-Omega

Thanks.  I shall check with the seller.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Audio Tubes website says there are 2 and 3 holes versions of Bay Boy, their era is from 1949 to 1953.


----------



## Skylab

See, this is where vintage tube buying can be a little frustrating.  Who, exactly, is it that is the "authority" on what a "bad boy" is? Quite clearly, not Sylvania! 
   
  "Bad Boy" was undoubtedly introduced by someone at some point to describe a specific Sylvania tube, and it kind of took on a life of its own.  As far as I am concerned, the Bad Boy is the three-hole tube as Stavros quoted above, and nothing more.  But frankly, as Stavros also says, who cares? I think "Bad Boy" has been used to try to sell that tube for more money, and nothing more.  Is it a good tube? Sure.  Is it any better than the Sylvania VT-231, which can often be had for less? Nope.  In fact, I like the Sylvania VT-231 better.


----------



## blubliss

Not sure if it is all right to do here, but I put up a bunch of very nice tubes in the For Sale section today if anyone is interested.


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tubes blubliss, good luck!
   
  Here is a FIVRE specially made for the Italian Air Force.
   

   
   
  And some interesting Marconi waiting for an amp to drive them


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Nice tubes blubliss, good luck!
> 
> Here is a FIVRE specially made for the Italian Air Force.
> 
> ...


 


 Those marconi are cool looking!
  Are they 6SN7? I would love to listen to them in my WA5-LE.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Those Marconi tubes look like they are 45's to me unless I'm mistaken.  Worth a small fortune too if they are.


----------



## rosgr63

Jose they have a B4 type base.
  They are actually more rare than the 45's and I am hoping to have an amp built for them, or another variant I came across just as rare.
  There is also a black plate version.


----------



## kiertijai

@rosgr63  : Are they Marconi  P250?  Are they similar to 2a3/45?
  How can we use them as : drivers or power tubes?
  How do they sound?


----------



## RiDeC58

Apologies if this was covered earlier in this thread, but what do people think of the new 6AS7 from Sophia?


----------



## rosgr63

Kiertijai I have only tried the 6SN7 A.M. tubes, not the Marconi yet.
  They are P250 for output duty.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I bought a little grab bag of 6 single 6SN7 tubes off eBay and they just arrived today.  From the pictures I could only identify a couple of them, an RCA and GE GTB mainly, so it was mostly a $35 gamble just for the heck of it.  I didn't have many tubes for my single 6SN7 operated OTL amp so I figured it'd be fun.  All 6 of the tubes carried interesting re-brand names on them, such as DeForest and Corvair which was part of the intrigue that got me to buy them.
   
  They came today, and some very pleasant surprises were in store for me.  I was right about the first two, though the RCA GTB is a style I haven't seen before, I'm not even sure it is RCA but it's definitely american.  Tube 3 is an early 50's RCA GT with offset plates, basically the grey glass tube without the grey glass.  No excitement there since I know this tube and personally am not a big fan.  Tube 4 was a much nicer surprise.  The Corvair turned out to be a NOS Hytron 6SN7GT t-plate.  This is the only american tube brand I haven't heard so I was really happy to see this one, and the tube is pristine.  Tube 5 got even more interesting.  The DeForest ended up being a Japanese black plate Hitachi 6SN7GTB.  I've really wanted to hear one of these too so score #2.  Best surprise came last: the tube marked Eico ended up being Italian made, though exactly who made it I do not know.  It is a GTB tube with offset grey ladder plates and very clear micas.  So no huge score like a Fivre or Marconi in disguise, but I'm still excited to find out what it sounds like.
   
  Listening to them all will be a good time for sure.  There is definitely more than $35 worth of tubes here so I think I did pretty well.


----------



## dminches

Well done.
   
  If you could post pictures that would be great.  That's the only way we can learn!


----------



## Xcalibur255

I'll definitely do that at some point.  I just cleaned them all today so I'm not really up for digging all six out of their boxes again right now.
   
  I started off with the 50's RCA GT in the amp; figured I'd build my way up to the best of the bunch.  It sounds pretty nice actually.  I had a Brimar GTY clearglass in just before and the two actually sound pretty similar to my ears.  The Brimar sounds a bit faster and edgier, more extended on top and has slightly better bass definition.  Both tubes excel at bringing out the texture of midrange tones.  This has that classic thickness in the lower midrange that I don't care for in RCA tubes though.  I suspect the GTB RCA will be the same only less refined more or less.  I have no expectations for the other four tubes and those are the ones I'm excited about.


----------



## rosgr63

Well done Xcalibur!
   
  Tube #5 is likely to be a SICTE or an ATES (Italian RCA), if the micas are transparent.


----------



## Xcalibur255

It matches the SICTE tube exactly, only branded as EICO.  Do they have a good reputation?  Thanks for the help with the ID rosgr.


----------



## rosgr63

SICTE have a good reputation.
  There are a few versions some with completely smooth flat plates others with flat ladder type plates and so on.
   
  One of my favorites has black type plates as shown here.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is there a particularly good tube for movie scores ?  I want music to be fast, tight, clear and with good resolution.  Sylvania 6SN7GT is my favourite so far.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Is there a particularly good tube for movie scores ?  I want music to be fast, tight, clear and with good resolution.  Sylvania 6SN7GT is my favourite so far.


 

 I love my Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base and chrome top.


----------



## rosgr63

If you like the Sylvania sound I would also recommend the 6SN7W Short Bottle, Black Base, with the lower mica inside the base.
   
  I don't know if it will fulfill all your expectations, but it's a tube worth trying.


----------



## Skylab

All of those Sylvanias are very nice.  I am using 6SN7WGTs in my Cary SLP-05, and they sound terrific.  Sylvania made some really nice tubes.


----------



## dminches

Rob, does those have a brown base and silver top?


----------



## Skylab

Yes, the ones I am using are brown base, black offset T plates, top halo getter (and thus the "silver top").


----------



## Xcalibur255

Well, I've had a chance to listen to my entire "grab bag" now.  This may be the best $35 I've ever spent.  The Corvair (Hytron) lives up to its reputation, very mellow and shelved down in the treble but it doesn't come across as veil.  The midrange is spectacularly revealing though, I have a couple of songs I listen to just to test for this and I think I heard more with the Hytron than I ever have before. 
   
  The biggest win IMO was the DeForest (Hitachi black plate).  This tube is a real sleeper as some people here have stated in the past.  It may get attention for its big bass, but really it does just about everything well.  The presentation is revealing and lucid, while remaining just a bit mellow and smooth.  I really liked the overall tonal balance too.  It makes piano sound real and handles transients extremely well, which might be the best compliment I can give a tube.  I don't say that about 90% of the tubes in my collection.  I could easily use this tube exclusively.
   
  The Eico (the Italian tube) I think needs some burn-in.  Right now it sounds a bit shouty and has some harsh glare in the upper mids.  I don't believe this is the character of the tube, so I'm thinking the tube was NOS and needs to run a while.  Actually most of these tubes turned out to be NOS, but I let the others run an entire day before listening.  The Eico has only been on for a couple of hours now, but since I'm sitting in front of it I decided to give it a listen.  It does sound pretty good, a bit more lit up than the other tubes, but I can't think of a reason to prefer it over any good Sylvania tube which I honestly think it sounds pretty similar to in most ways.  I'll give it a fair shake after it has been on a bit longer.


----------



## dminches

There is a pair of Hitachi 6SN7 with black plates selling for $500.  Looks like you got a good deal.


----------



## john57

I have a Hitachi 6SN7 tube is great shape and it is in my top three 6SN7 tubes. good grief, the NOS tube prices are really climbing this year.  That price is ridiculous and I will not pay that much.  Even with great audio equipment if I want perfect sound I go to a concert. I support my local musicians!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> There is a pair of Hitachi 6SN7 with black plates selling for $500.  Looks like you got a good deal.


 


  Considering the last NOS pair I saw on eBay went for less than $70 I'd say that asking price is a bit absurd.  Most of these prices are fixed very artificially anyway.  Even people like myself who most certainly are not deep pocketed become so because of our love for this hobby, and there are no shortage of people out there glad to take advantage of that atmosphere to make a mint.


----------



## Skylab

You can very easily buy NOS Hitachi 6SN7's for $40 each, and probably less.  That seller is just a scammer looking for victims.
   
  Still, it does seem like NOS tube prices are escalating significantly.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i've been wanting to try 6sn7 on my WA6-SE, you need an adapter though don't yah?


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur thanks for the update.
  I would like to mention that I have US made tubes with clear mica like the SICTE, but I can't remember which one it is at the minute.
  The Hitachi 6SN7GTB as mentioned before is a wonderful tube.
   
  You can get a nice pair of ITT re branded Hitachi NIB tube with black plates for $25-$30, so don't fall in the trap.
  I don't honestly understand how Audiogon allows people to try and sell at such ridiculous prices.


----------



## john57

That is right sometimes the ITT tubes are easier to get.


----------



## kiertijai

That ad of Hitachi 6SN7GT appears on the first item of the  first page when we click from the home
  menu to see the "tubes" section and has been there for sometime.  I also purchased one ITT Hitachi 6SN7
  for less than 30$, it sounds very good.  This seller also lists the Jan-CTL-Tungsol 6SU7GTY for a very high price of
  500$/pair or 700$ for 3 tubes : what a price?  http://app.audiogon.com/listings/443504
  Please be careful.


----------



## Blackmore

Audiogon, like Ebay, charges now the percentage from total plus you pay for placing of the ad, so, they are doing "good" and if the price is high, even better! Thats why many good deals arent there anymore, folks just stay away. Buy the way, their new website is sucking big time.

  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Xcalibur thanks for the update.
> I would like to mention that I have US made tubes with clear mica like the SICTE, but I can't remember which one it is at the minute.
> The Hitachi 6SN7GTB as mentioned before is a wonderful tube.
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

I checked my ebay archive and last year I bought a Hitachi 6SN7GTB Black Plates NIB for $18 + shipping.
  I am trying to work out how a similar pair would cost $500.
   
  Must be advanced number theory mixed with astrophysics.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Audiogon, like Ebay, charges now the percentage from total plus you pay for placing of the ad, so, they are doing "good" and if the price is high, even better! Thats why many good deals arent there anymore, folks just stay away. Buy the way, their new website is sucking big time.


 


 I agree. I have been an Audiogoner for many many years and I hate the new site


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I agree. I have been an Audiogoner for many many years and I hate the new site


 

 You can add me to the list too.


----------



## MacedonianHero

So I rolled in my brown base Sylvania 5692s and its confirmed a few things, first off the VT-231s are very neutral and boy do the 5692s have a dynamic sound! Great having both to pick from.


----------



## musicman59

I have a pair of Tungsol round plates 6F8G and also a pair for grat glass/round plates Reytheon that sound very similar to the TS but I just got a par of RCA 6F8G that have black glass and flat plates.
  Oh boy! I am loving them. They have great synergy with my EML 300B Mesh and 596 rectifiers. They are very detailed with great definition. very nice midrange and awesome bass.


----------



## cacatalysis

Musicman, I tried a pair of RCA 6F8G/VT99 today in my WA22 with TS7236 and 596.  I was pleasently surprised to hear a fantastic sound very similar to what you described.  I am wondering whether there is a special synergy betwwen the RCA 6F8G and 596.  I also tried NU and Sylvaia 6F8Gs, they are not even close.


----------



## musicman59

Yes, I was surprised too. I was not expecting that sound out of them. They are at th elevel of the TS and a lot cheaper.
  I agree, synergy is very improtant. I have rolled several 6SN7  and some of them that were my favortie ones with the EML 5U4G Mesh or the Brimar 5R4GY did not sound as good with the 596.


----------



## cacatalysis

Your comparison with TS is spot on.  I was about to say they were at the level of TS 6SN7 BGRP I just got on my WA22.  To my ears, the TS is a tiny more detailed, but the RCA 6F8G is a little smoother, which, to me, a little more natural.  I should mention my comments are with HD800.  With a warm headphone, I have no idea but I am guessing TS would be better. 
   
  Which headphone did you use?


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





cacatalysis said:


> Your comparison with TS is spot on.  I was about to say they were at the level of TS 6SN7 BGRP I just got on my WA22.  To my ears, the TS is a tiny more detailed, but the RCA 6F8G is a little smoother, which, to me, a little more natural.  I should mention my comments are with HD800.  With a warm headphone, I have no idea but I am guessing TS would be better.
> 
> Which headphone did you use?


 


 I tried them with my HD800, T1 and HE-6. All with Zeus cable.


----------



## rosgr63

Oskari what is the code r93 L9C?
   
  These are the numbers printed on the bottom of a Cossor 6SN7GT tube.


----------



## cacatalysis

I used a HD800 with DHC complement cable (bought used).  I have a HE-6 too, still in search for a solution to drive them. 
   
  How do you compare the combo of RCA 6F8G/596 with others (in terms of same level) in WA5? 
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I tried them with my HD800, T1 and HE-6. All with Zeus cable.


----------



## musicman59

I think they are at the same level than the EML 5U4G Mesh/TS combo and better than the Reytheon combo.

I used to have The Complement but sold it. IMO the Zeus gives me the same quality sound at half of the cost and a fraction of the weight.

I use my DS, my WA5 or a Threshold T50 for the HE-6. The WA5 does a good job depending on what driver tubes I use. The DS and Threshold make them sing.


----------



## cacatalysis

I actually even prefer them over the EML 5U4G mesh/TS in my WA22.  The interesting thing is the RCA 6F8Gs are so much better than my RCA 6sn7 smoke glass (still pretty good). 
   
  The new complement is expensive.  I was lucky to get an used one at a big discount. 
   
  I have been looking for a threshold (T-series) but have not found one so far.  Does the threshold run very hot like an aleph?


----------



## musicman59

No. it runs hot but not even close to the level of the Aleph. I used to have the Alpeh 3 and 5 but settle in the Threshold. I also have 2 T400 bridged to mono in my main speaker system and a S550e in my bedroom speaker system.
   
  I agree the RCA 6F8G are better than the 6SN7 Gray/Smoke Glass.
   
  You can also look for a Forte 4 or 4a they are basically the same amplifier as the T50.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Oskari what is the code r93 L9C?
> 
> These are the numbers printed on the bottom of a Cossor 6SN7GT tube.


 

 Vintage Brussels sprouts! '59 MBLE.


----------



## cacatalysis

Thanks for the information about forte 4.  I will check both Threshold and Fortes in the future.
  
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> No. it runs hot but not even close to the level of the Aleph. I used to have the Alpeh 3 and 5 but settle in the Threshold. I also have 2 T400 bridged to mono in my main speaker system and a S550e in my bedroom speaker system.
> 
> I agree the RCA 6F8G are better than the 6SN7 Gray/Smoke Glass.
> 
> You can also look for a Forte 4 or 4a they are basically the same amplifier as the T50.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is there a grail 6SN7 or Sylvania ?  I thought the metal base Sylvania 6SN7W might be the grail because of its price.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Vintage Brussels sprouts! '59 MBLE.


 

 Thanks Oskari.
  C is March 1959, right?


----------



## Oskari

That is true.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> That is true.


 


  Thanks.
  You are a good teacher, I am learning fast.
   
  BTW it sounds very nice, it has copper posts, grey plates and a very strange looking wire getter.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> BTW it sounds very nice, it has copper posts, grey plates and a very strange looking wire getter.


 

 Now that you've said it, I see copper as well in my r93 L1E, and a D getter.


----------



## rosgr63

How does it sound?
  What brand is it?


----------



## Oskari

It's the Miniwatt I've mentioned before. It's been growing on me.


----------



## bixby

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Is there a grail 6SN7 or Sylvania ?  I thought the metal base Sylvania 6SN7W might be the grail because of its price.


 


  Yes and no.  I spent the better part of a day auditioning some of effusions33's  rare and classic 6sn7s in a simple La Figaro amp.  It all depends on which tubes are going to be used with them and what headphones you use.  It sure is fun hearing all the different "flavors"  of 6sn7 though.  I got to hear several Sylvania 6sn7wgta, the Tung-Sol round plate, NU and RCA black glass, Hytron, Mouse Ears, and Bad Boy.  I can honestly say with some setups some of the more rare ones did not gel as well.  Lots of fun for sure.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> a very strange looking wire getter.


 

 Have you got photos to share?


----------



## rosgr63

To me there are two types of 6SN7 grail:
   
  Those which are rare to find and sound great.
   
  Those which are very rare to find but sound average and are nice for collection.
   
  IMHO those 6SN7 which sound great, are easy to source and do not cost a lot are the best choice. As bixby said above it's all about system synergy.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Have you got photos to share?


 


  Here is a photo of the tube, I'll get one of the getter soon.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Can anyone provide more information on this tube ?
  It's a Sylvania 6SN7GT, 3 hole plates with extra 2 holes behind each plate.


----------



## rosgr63

It looks like a GTB type tube.
  The plates are at an angle to each other right?


----------



## Audio-Omega

Yes the plates are at an angle to each other.  Is there anything special about the tube ?  Do you know what's the year of production ?


----------



## Skylab

Very common Sylvania tube, likely somewhat late production, could be anywhere in 60's or even 70's, I think.  I have some JAN-CHS 6SN7GTB's with the same plate structure that were made in 1979!  I actually think they sound quite good, and can usually be had NOS for very attractive prices - like $15 per tube.  IMHO, worth stocking up on at those prices...someday soon even these will not be easy to get...


----------



## rosgr63

I like GTB type tubes, but some people don't think much of them.
  Is there a date code printed on the base or glass?
   
  I think the GTB's appeared in the mid 50's.


----------



## Audio-Omega

There is a C5B or C58 printed on top of the glass.  It might be a late production tube because the inside looks new and shiny.


----------



## Audio-Omega

It sounded very much like the other Sylvania (6SN7GT 1949) except it had a harder sounding treble.  Low end bass was missing in the first few minutes of listening.  I should give it for a few weeks to burn in.


----------



## rosgr63

If anything the GTB's have a good bass in my experience.
  Can you access a tester to have it checked?


----------



## Audio-Omega

The bass improved a few hours later.  It was starting to sound like the other Sylvania which had missing bass as well when I first got it.  It's like a flower blooming but not fully yet.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> Yes, I was surprised too. I was not expecting that sound out of them. They are at th elevel of the TS and a lot cheaper.
> I agree, synergy is very improtant. I have rolled several 6SN7  and some of them that were my favortie ones with the EML 5U4G Mesh or the Brimar 5R4GY did not sound as good with the 596.


 

 How much for the surprising RCA 6F8G's?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> i've been wanting to try 6sn7 on my WA6-SE, you need an adapter though don't yah?


 


  Yes. Also, hope you're finding rhythm inside the classroom now that you're back!


----------



## rosgr63

Check your PM and hurry up, it's a hard deal to beat!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Check your PM and hurry up, it's a hard deal to beat!


 

 Thanks. A quick check of inventory shows that I have the cheaper (pedestrian sounding) RCA Clear Glass 6F8G's. I've not heard 'em though, they were gifted and I've yet to get an adapter. However, talk of synergy between the RCA GG-6F8G/596 pairing has renewed my interest in buying the sibling.




  How does your pair sound? musicman59 mentions 'Black Glass' RCA's and these look Gray. Same? It's late and my vision is shot!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> NOS tubes in general have really gotten high just in the last year or so it seems.  I got my NOS greyglass for $50, and sold them again a little while back for the same price because their sound doesn't work for me.
> 
> The price on BGRP  is starting to close in on the Osram B65's these days.  At least for good matched pairs.


 

 I've seen the storied Osram B65's priced, but what do they sound like? Have you, other members here, get listening time with this tube? While I demand a tube returns beautiful sound first and foremost, there's no denying the B65's beauty. I could look at it all day!


----------



## rosgr63

The B65 sound nice but they are over priced.
   
  You can get other nice sounding tubes for a fraction of the B65 price.
   
  If you are a collector or an addict, it's another story.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The B65 sound nice but they are over priced.
> 
> You can get other nice sounding tubes for a fraction of the B65 price.
> 
> If you are a collector or an addict, it's another story.


 

 If price wasn't considered, what tube would match it in sound; be in the same class? I'd never confess to being an addict! But, I am up several hours past bedtime discussing tubes...


----------



## musicman59

silent one said:


> Thanks. A quick check of inventory shows that I have the cheaper (pedestrian sounding) RCA Clear Glass 6F8G's. I've not heard 'em though, they were gifted and I've yet to get an adapter. However, talk of synergy between the RCA GG-6F8G/596 pairing has renewed my interest in buying the sibling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry for the confusion. The 6F8G RCA are gray. The Raytheon are black.


----------



## musicman59

silent one said:


> How smuch for the surprising RCA 6F8G's?



They were part of a package deal but I think they are about $80


----------



## cacatalysis

What is the ongoing price for a pair of TS 6F8G?  On ebay the only one listed are over $250.


----------



## musicman59

I bought a pair of used ones with good readings from a fellow member here for $165.


----------



## dminches

The range of prices on ebay on what seem to be the same tubes is crazy.  We need to organize and agree not to pay ridiculous prices in an attempt to bring them down!


----------



## Rob N

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The B65 sound nice but they are over priced.
> 
> You can get other nice sounding tubes for a fraction of the B65 price.
> 
> If you are a collector or an addict, it's another story.


 

 Definetely overpriced http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B65-6SN7-Osram-G-E-C-NOS-NIB-Metalbase-/390384359550


----------



## cacatalysis

Thanks musicman.  What is the life span for these tubes?  I am getting a pair soon, I will campare them with TS 6SN7 BGRP in my WA22.  Does the 6F8G sounds very similar to TS 6SN7 BGRP? 

  
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I bought a pair of used ones with good readings from a fellow member here for $165.


----------



## kiertijai

I also have one pair of round plate black glass Tungsol 6F8G VT99 early version
  which cost around that range.  I prefer that to the sound of the Tungsol BGRP 6SN7's.
  I also have the Tungsol 6SU7GTY  round plate recommended by Stavros.  All those
  3 Tungsol's are excellent and I found that the 6SU7GTY  works wonderfully with the LCD3.
  They are VT99, military version so the life should be longer.


----------



## cacatalysis

Does this refer to their use in your ECBA?  Do we need an adapter for 6SU7GTY?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I bought a pair of used ones with good readings from a fellow member here for $165.


 


  Did you buy the pair from 'danska?' If so, I might as well climb off the fence...


----------



## kiertijai

*Does this refer to their use in your ECBA?  Do we need an adapter for 6SU7GTY?*
      Yes I am using them in my ECBA without any problem.  They are like the Tungsol 6SL7's
  so no adapter needed.  The Tungsol 6SU7GTY is a premium grade of the 6SL7's.
  At the time of the recommendation the cost of a NOS pair was much less.  I could  also
  get the Tungsol VT99 NOS at a good price.  Now the Tungsol 6C8G NOS pair is coming too,
  this one is like the 6F8G's so they will need the 6F8G/6SN7 adapter and the gain is between
  the 6SN7's and 6SL7's
*     *


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dminches said:


> The range of prices on ebay on what seem to be the same tubes is crazy.  We need to organize and agree not to pay ridiculous prices in an attempt to bring them down!


 
   
  Discounts--
   





 I'm with you! The communication here is great. And at some point, some sellers may want to move a packaged lot at once and be done with it. But they should be willing to pay for that privilege of doing business with us as a group!


----------



## cacatalysis

Kiertijai, Thanks for the information.  Is VT99 the military version of 6F8G?  I suppose they should be of higher price than normal 6F8G.  I now have a WA22 to drive a balanced pair of HD800.  I am thinking about ECBA, but hesitated because there are several owners commeted that ECBA is not the best with HD800. 
   
  To get off topic a little bit, I read that you perfer 007 over 009 for romantic classical music.  Does that remain true?
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> *Does this refer to their use in your ECBA?  Do we need an adapter for 6SU7GTY?*
> Yes I am using them in my ECBA without any problem.  They are like the Tungsol 6SL7's
> so no adapter needed.  The Tungsol 6SU7GTY is a premium grade of the 6SL7's.
> At the time of the recommendation the cost of a NOS pair was much less.  I could  also
> ...


----------



## kiertijai

*Is VT99 the military version of 6F8G?  I suppose they should be of higher price than normal 6F8G.  *
      Yes it is. It is supposed to be more expensive but that's not true in my case I can get the Tungsol VT99 and National Union VT99 at around 150$/ NOS pair
   
*there are several owners commented that ECBA is not the best with HD800. *
     I think the ECBA can drive the HD800 very well however it does not help improve the soundstage
  of the HD800 because the soundstage is already very good.  What the HD800 lack is the bass which can be improved my some modification as described by Purrin, recable with cable like apuresound, blue dragon or Zeus cable, tube rolling with Kenrad to improve the bass response.  You may also consider the Super7 (which use one 6SN7 as driver and 6 6SN7's as power)  , this amplifier has been reported to drive the HD800 very well may be up to 80-90% of the BA with the cost at 1500$ (introductory price) as use the warm tube sets as proposed by Purrin and Anaxillus.
   
   *I read that you perfer 007 over 009 for romantic classical music*
     I don't remember those comments.  However I have compared the HE90 with the SR009 and I think I prefer HE90, SR Omega more than the SR009.  The SR009 is an excellent headphone however because it is more forwarded and quicker pace with narrower soundstage so I prefer the HE90 more.  I do think the SR009 is more suited to sweet classical music from Vivaldi, Beethoven early, Bach but for Tchaikovsky, Brahm , Mahler , Gorecki which are more dramatic , more complex, more dynamic I prefer the  HE90.   Some of the Thai head-fiers prefer the O2mkI (007) more than the SR009 driven the DIY T2 as they think the SR009 may be too bright and more fatiguing.  However it depends on the amplifier used as one member said that the performance of the SR009 is better with the use of Woo Wes max.


----------



## cacatalysis

In WA22 the best combination for me with HD800 (with a pair of DHC complement balanced cable) is a tie between Tung sol7236/RCA Vt99/596 and Tung Sol 7236/TS 6SN7 BGRP/596.  Both are better than those repalcing 596 with EML 5U4G.  The 596 is a shocker to me, add base to HD800 while improving soundstage and weight.  To my ears they are better than EML 5U4G.  
   
  Who sells super 7 now?  I thought Criag has closed the introduction run.
   
  I love my 007, right now I am using a Stax 007tII with an audio-gd phoenix as pre-amp.  Only 007tII is not good at all.  I am very satisfied with the sound, but I am waiting for a BHSE in the 45 batch.  Actually, the Thai head-fiers' comments make me worry that 009 may be a completely different game.  My WA22 has a pre-out, one possibility is to use it as an pre-amp to warm up the BHSE.
   
  Do you think 009 and HE90 both are much better than 007 for classical music?  I feel that impactful base and dynamic is critical for orchestral music. To my ears, 007 sounds much closer to a real life concert than HD800, although the latter is more stunning in certain ways.  I listen to violin a lot, which phone is the best for viiolin?


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Did you buy the pair from 'danska?' If so, I might as well climb off the fence...


 


 Yes I did 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





cacatalysis said:


> Thanks musicman.  What is the life span for these tubes?  I am getting a pair soon, I will campare them with TS 6SN7 BGRP in my WA22.  Does the 6F8G sounds very similar to TS 6SN7 BGRP?


 


  I am not sure about the life span. I have a pair of the 6SN7 BGRP too. The sound is very similar and I personally prefer the 6F8G.


----------



## cacatalysis

Thanks.  I check it by google.  What information I have suggest the life span are in several thousands if hours.  I am getting a pair of TS 6F8G soon, very excited.


----------



## Blackmore

Life span of say 5692 RCA industrial version was stated for 10.000 hours. If you want the tubes that have longer life, you need to buy them from the very trusty source, 100% NOS, fully tested and military/JAN versions only. Other than that, you will never know.


----------



## kiertijai

*Do you think 009 and HE90 both are much better than 007 for classical music?  I feel that impactful base and dynamic is critical for orchestral music. To my ears, 007 sounds much closer to a real life concert than HD800, although the latter is more stunning in certain ways.  I listen to violin a lot, which phone is the best for viiolin?   *
     I think all the 3 mentioned headphones are excellent and it comes down to personal preference.  I don't think you will have problem with the orchestral music.
   
*The sound is very similar and I personally prefer the 6F8G.  same   *
*     *
*     *
*     *


----------



## cacatalysis

Thanks for your comments on and for sharing your wisdom of the tubes and phones.  I could not wait to try the TS 6F8G.  Hopefully, someday I can have an opportunity to check out the HE90.


----------



## rosgr63

The 5692 and the 1578 were designee for heavy duty with a 10,000hrs life span.
  However if they are used in a 6SN7 circuit their life is reduced because of the different operating conditions.
   
  I agree with Blackmore's statement about getting high quality (not necessarily price) tubes.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The 5692 and the 1578 were designee for heavy duty with a 10,000hrs life span.
> However if they are used in a 6SN7 circuit their life is reduced because of the different operating conditions.
> 
> I agree with Blackmore's statement about getting high quality (not necessarily price) tubes.


 

 What is the difference between the 6SN7 operating condition and the condition that a 5692 was designed for?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> What is the difference between the 6SN7 operating condition and the condition that a 5692 was designed for?


 
  The 6SN7 Reference thread states:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
   
*QUOTE*
  
*Fact 2:* The widely advertised of ‘10000 hrs life’ for the 5692 is just advertising baloney. If one would observe carefully, the 5692’s specs differ quite greatly from the 6SN7s – far lower plate voltage and max dissipation rates are given. It can be inferred that this conservatism in its ratings contributes directly to the 5692’s purported long life. Hence, if you intend to use the 5692 as a drop-in for a 6SN7 in an amp running 6SN7 voltages and currents, be prepared to have your 5692 last no longer than a normal 6SN7 at best.
   

*UNQUOTE*


----------



## dminches

Stavros, thanks for the info.
   
  A pair of metal base Sylvania 6SN7Ws sold for $345 on ebay.  Crazy.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I thought that was about the going rate for the metal base Sylvanias actually.  They've been at star status amongst 6SN7 for longer than just about any other tube has.


----------



## dminches

The last pair I purchased was a year ago and I paid $275.  I guess $345 isn't crazy, but it sure indicates the rising cost of NOS tubes.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The 6SN7 Reference thread states:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
> 
> ...


 

 Cool thanks. That said, I've typically found the 5692s quieter and have never suffered from microphonics. Something the standard 6SN7s that I've owned couldn't match IME.


----------



## john57

Quote: 





macedonianhero said:


> Cool thanks. That said, I've typically found the 5692s quieter and have never suffered from microphonics. Something the standard 6SN7s that I've owned couldn't match IME.


 


 I agree that the 5692 is a very quiet tube and that is important for me with my sensitive Beyerdynamic T70 headphones.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





john57 said:


> I agree that the 5692 is a very quiet tube and that is important for me with my sensitive Beyerdynamic T70 headphones.


 


  Or my Grado HF-2s or Ed.8s.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I thought that was about the going rate for the metal base Sylvanias actually.  They've been at star status amongst 6SN7 for longer than just about any other tube has.


 

 I agree, this has been the going rate of a NIB pair for the last 2-3 years.
  They are not cheap for sure.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Does anyone like the sound of Sylvania tall bottle ?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Does anyone like the sound of Sylvania tall bottle ?


 

 I like the Sylvania VT-231 (tall bottle) quite a bit and its likely one of the most neutral 6SN7 or variant I've heard.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Does anyone like the sound of Sylvania tall bottle ?


 

 May have a pair. Let's open up the wooden box for a late look and listen, shall we? Of course, I couldn't afford the VT-231 version. But will check anyway...


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is there a sound difference between VT-231 and no VT-231 tubes ?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Is there a sound difference between VT-231 and no VT-231 tubes ?


 


 On the RCAs, definitely yes.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Is there a sound difference between VT-231 and no VT-231 tubes ?


 


  At least 2/3 of the time the VT-231 and 6SN7GT branded tubes from the same manufacturer in the same time period are the exact same tube.  VT-231s often went through an additional round of testing to meet military criteria, but physically they were the same tubes.  There are exceptions though.  A good example would be Raytheon and Sylvania tubes which have extra support rods in their VT-231 and W versions respectively.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Have you got photos to share?


 


  Here is the getter detail


----------



## Oskari

Thanks! What is it that you find strange in that?


----------



## rosgr63

The way the bracket is welded onto the D frame and the way is bent down.
  The photo cannot give the true perspective.
   
  The D frame is common otherwise.


----------



## Justin Uthadude

.
  It appears that an old 3 cell car battery produced about 6.3V (2.1V X 3) and I have found an old tube used in Ford Motor Co. radios that needed 6.3V for the heater. It’s almost totally chromed. Anyone recognize this?
   

   
  Hint: it’s from our friends at 312. The funny thing is that the back says to only replace with a genuine Ford tube!
  (Sounds fabulous in my headphone amp)


----------



## Audio-Omega

Have you checked ?
   
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> May have a pair. Let's open up the wooden box for a late look and listen, shall we? Of course, I couldn't afford the VT-231 version. But will check anyway...


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> At least 2/3 of the time the VT-231 and 6SN7GT branded tubes from the same manufacturer in the same time period are the exact same tube.  VT-231s often went through an additional round of testing to meet military criteria, but physically they were the same tubes.  There are exceptions though.  A good example would be Raytheon and Sylvania tubes which have extra support rods in their VT-231 and W versions respectively.


 

 This.  Military designations aren't necessarily a guarantee of improved durability or SQ.  Some claim certain more durable designations actually sound worse depending on the tube.  The process was also rather random w/ one out of ten (or some other ratio) samples being tested and then the whole batch being certified as mil spec.  So there are nuances to be aware of.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





justin uthadude said:


> .
> It appears that an old 3 cell car battery produced about 6.3V (2.1V X 3) and I have found an old tube used in Ford Motor Co. radios that needed 6.3V for the heater. It’s almost totally chromed. Anyone recognize this?
> 
> 
> ...


 

 My second favorite 6SN7 of all time, right behind the the BGRP Tung Sol and the tube I use most in my current amp.  Though, mine all have the shorty plastic base, which I thought was how this particular variation came.  I have only ever seen them with date codes ranging from 1951 to 1953 myself, the same time period as the "bad boy" but definitely not the same tube despite having the same type of plates.


----------



## Justin Uthadude

This tube has a date code of 852, which I figured meant the end of 1948 or 1958. I can find no tube resembling this that Sylvania made in 1958, so maybe this is from 1948?


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> This.  Military designations aren't necessarily a guarantee of improved durability or SQ.  Some claim certain more durable designations actually sound worse depending on the tube.  The process was also rather random w/ one out of ten (or some other ratio) samples being tested and then the whole batch being certified as mil spec.  So there are nuances to be aware of.


 
   
  The process is far from random.  There are real statistical approaches to sampling which define the number of samples you need to test to insure a positive result as a certain probability level.  The government may not be the most efficient organization but the military does understand sampling, testing and tolerances.
  
  Having said all that, they didn't build the tubes to maximize sonic properties.


----------



## Skylab

Right, but the military was HUGELY interested in reliability and longevity.


----------



## rosgr63

David & Rob would you agree that the best US made tubes stayed in the US?


----------



## Skylab

I think the majority of them probably have, yes, although in the last 15 -ish years of the Internet era many more have left the US that probably ever had prior.
   
  Clearly though there were some large stocks at US Military bases overseas that did make it out into the civilian population as they were disposed of.  
   
  And of course, Western Europe and the UK made some of the finest tubes around, so there was likely not that strong a demand for US made tubes.  There were many outstanding tubes made in both the US and Europe.  I am guessing that many more total tubes were made in the US, but I don't know that for sure.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





justin uthadude said:


> This tube has a date code of 852, which I figured meant the end of 1948 or 1958. I can find no tube resembling this that Sylvania made in 1958, so maybe this is from 1948?


 


  It would have to be 1948 I would think.  By 1953/1954 Sylvania was transitioning to their off set angle triangular plates you see the GTA and GTB tubes pretty much from that point on.  I think some of the military labeled W tubes were still using the parallel plates until the later 50's, but the actual plate type was different even though it looked almost identical.  Assuming we're right (and I'm assuming its the same tube as the one I have, minus the different plastic base) what you have is closely related to what you find inside a metal base W tube, and IMO one of the true treasures of the 6SN7 world.  In my personal opinion they outperform the "bad boy" and by a considerable margin too.  It's the only tube I've personally heard that I consider on the same footing with the BGRP Tung Sol for resolution.  Some of the tubes I often have seen cited as peers to that tube, like the VT-231 Raytheon, are indeed great tubes but still not in the same class to my humble ears.


----------



## rosgr63

Skylab I agree 100%.
  There were some fine tubes made both in the US and Europe.
  Could you please redefine your favorite 5 6SN7's?
   
  Xcalibur are you referring to the 6SN7W black base?
  Can you also let us know your favorite 5 6SN7's please?
   
  I would like to invite all thread readers to contribute their top 5 6SN7's.
  It will be interesting to see what different people like.
  They don't have to be expensive or rare tubes but what you like best.
  Thanks.


----------



## kchew

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I would like to invite all thread readers to contribute their top 5 6SN7's.
> It will be interesting to see what different people like.
> They don't have to be expensive or rare tubes but what you like best.
> Thanks.


 

 For me, in no particular order:
   
  Tung Sol BGRP
  Mullard ECC32
  Fivre 6SN7GT brown base
  JAN Raytheon VT-231 (flat plate with extra support rod)
  National Union 6SN7GT black glass


----------



## dminches

For me, in no particular order:
  
 Tung Sol BGRP
 Mullard ECC32
 RCA 5692
 Sylvania vt-231
 Sylvania 6SN7W metal base


----------



## Skylab

1. Mullard ECC32 (which really isn't a 6SN7 of course)
  2. Tung Sol BGRP
  3. Sylvania 6SN7W metal base
  4. Sylvania 6sN7W black base tall bottle
  5. Mullard ECC33 (also not really a 6SN7)
   
  Honorable mention: Tung Sol Tall bottle brown base 6SN7WGT, Sylvania 6SN7WGT, Sylvania VT-231
   
  Stavros I hope you will also post yours, you have the nicest 6SN7 collection I know of


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> 1. Mullard ECC32 (which really isn't a 6SN7 of course)
> 2. Tung Sol BGRP
> 3. Sylvania 6SN7W metal base
> 4. Sylvania 6sN7W black base tall bottle
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for your list and very kind comments.
  I am still miles behind you and many other members.
   
  I will post my list and I think you may be surprised!


----------



## rosgr63

*Favorite Tubes*
 1.Tung Sol 6SN7 Mouse Ears (Black Plates)
 2.Sylvania 6SN7W Black Base Short Bottle (Lower Mica Inside Base)
 3.RCA 6SN7 Smoked Glass
 4.NU 6SN7 Black Glass
 5.Channel Master 6SN7GTB
  
  
 *Rare Tubes*
 1.Neotron 6SN7
 2.Tung Sol 6SN7 Square Mica
 3.Standard 33S30
 4.Brimar 13D2
 5.ECC32 Early Black Base (Inverted Pan Getter)
   
  The Rare Tubes list contains what I think are rare tubes and have nothing to do with their sonic qualities which I feel are nothing special compared to other 6SN7 tubes.


----------



## Skylab

Interesting list Stavros!  I need to revisit the NU Black Glass.
   
  Wasn't Channel Master just a rebrander?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Interesting list Stavros!  I need to revisit the NU Black Glass.
> 
> Wasn't Channel Master just a rebrander?


 

 A re-brand for the Hitachi I believe.
   
  I personally have found the NU black glass rewards rectifier experimentation.  The right change in B+ can really wake them up.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Xcalibur are you referring to the 6SN7W black base?
> Can you also let us know your favorite 5 6SN7's please?


 


  I believe they are the same tube yes.  Sylvania made so many variations, but what I gathered is that tooling was used to produce some regular 6SN7GT before they stopped using it all together.  They don't have the dynamics or slam of the W metal base tubes, but excel in finesse and refinement.  I happen to prefer their tonal balance and midrange presentation over any other tube as well.  They get the human voice juuuuuust right.  
   
  In order of preference:
  - Tung Sol BGRP 6SN7GT oval mica copper grid posts
  - Sylvania 6SN7GT heavy chrome top (chrome dome)
  - Hitachi 6SN7GTB black plate
  - National Union 6SN7GT black glass
  - Tung Sol "mouse ear" 6SN7GT
   
  I never cared for the mouse ear before, but with my OTL amp it really does everything quite well and is very neutral/transparent.  I'd have to give an honorable mention to the Hytron 6SN7GT as well.  They sound unnatural to me tonally, but I've never heard more midrange detail from any other tube including the BGRP.  It's quite ethereal.  If the rest of the range were more balanced it would be an incredible tube.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Have you checked ?


 

 Apologies. I got side-tracked inside the listening room. Going from Billy Cobham to Herbie Hancock to... "What was I suppose to check again?" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Will have a look tonight.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> It would have to be 1948 I would think.  By 1953/1954 Sylvania was transitioning to their off set angle triangular plates you see the GTA and GTB tubes pretty much from that point on.  I think some of the military labeled W tubes were still using the parallel plates until the later 50's, but the actual plate type was different even though it looked almost identical.  Assuming we're right (and I'm assuming its the same tube as the one I have, minus the different plastic base) what you have is closely related to what you find inside a metal base W tube, and IMO one of the true treasures of the 6SN7 world.  In my personal opinion they outperform the "bad boy" and by a considerable margin too.  It's the only tube I've personally heard that I consider on the same footing with the BGRP Tung Sol for resolution.  Some of the tubes I often have seen cited as peers to that tube, like the VT-231 Raytheon, are indeed great tubes but still not in the same class to my humble ears.


 

 VT-231 Raytheon-
   
  I have the W "Mil-Spec" version and I think they do many things well. Currently sitting in the number 2 slot inside my collection. But, in contrast to the TS-BGRP's, I have discovered the Ray's fall flat on depth (pun intended) and a bit less holographic around notes.


----------



## Silent One

My collection of tubes is limited at this time. Could 2012 be "Year of the Roll?"
   
  1. Tung-Sol BGRP VT-231 Oval Mica
  2. Raytheon 6SN7W 
  3) RCA Grey Glass 6SN7GT
   
  I've some Sylvania & ITT in the box that sounds pretty decent; will have to pull 'em out for more info.


----------



## Justin Uthadude

I have never heard a BGRP, nor a Mullard. Many of my tubes have been purchased used testing very well, but not NOS. Having lurked here quite awhile and studied the tubes, I took Skylab’s advice and started buying off-brands. My last acquisition was 6 tubes from an old radio hobbyist that I got to send me pictures. A grey glass RCA that is branded Emerson. A ’47 Kentucky Radio (Ken-Rad) VT-231 type with the extra support rods, which was branded GE. A Tung-Sol 6sn7wgt which has CHIEF printed on it. The Ford chrome dome. An actual Raytheon vt-231, and a mouse ear with nothing printed on the base. I was very happy to get away for $67.
   
  Up until that point my 5 favorites were:
  Sylvania 6sn7w metal-low mica (that is actually an “A”, that’s why it was cheap)
  Hytron 6sn7
  RCA grey glass
  Lenkurt (Raytheon) wgt
  RCA 5692 red base (but oddly not the brown base Hytron so much)
   
  I really started liking the wgt’s after I got the Lenkurt and was trying to get several more, when I saw the CHIEF, and then the others. I haven’t had much time to really evaluate the new ones, but the Ford seems fabulous and I instantly liked the mouse ear and the Raytheon. In fact I think I like Raytheons as much as most people seem to like Sylvanias.
   
  As for the NU black glass; that’s the tube that was in my amp when I got it from you Skylab. Thanks.


----------



## dminches

Buying off brand is a great way to score excellent tubes for cheap.  Recently I got a pair of Tung-sol 6SU7GTYs which were branded "Owl" for $100 when the TS brand normally sells for over $200.  And they were in the original boxes.


----------



## musicman59

My top 5 in not a specific order include some that are not 6SN7 but can be use in my amp as one.
   
  1) Mullard ECC32 Brown or Black base
  2) Tungsol 6F8G BG/RP
  3) RCA 6F8G Gray Glass
  4) Sylvania 6SN7WGT Broan Base/ Chrome top
  5) Tungsol 6SN7GT BG/RP
   
  Others that I like: RCA 5692 Red Base, Brimar CV1988 BG, NU 6SN7 BG.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Interesting list Stavros!  I need to revisit the NU Black Glass.
> 
> Wasn't Channel Master just a rebrander?


 

 My Channel Master 6SN7GTB are marked Made in Japan and have Gray Plates.
  I was introduced to them by my French Tube Teacher who send me one over as a gift.
   
  My Hitachi 6SN7GTB have Black Plates.
   
  David I saw some "Owl" branded tubes and they looked very nice.
   
  Getting rebrands is a clever way to buy and try tubes.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> My top 5 in not a specific order include some that are not 6SN7 but can be use in my amp as one.
> 
> 1) Mullard ECC32 Brown or Black base
> 2) Tungsol 6F8G BG/RP
> ...


 







 Your list is looking a bit rich. Mind if I stand under the "Pre-Owned" sign above your porch? Perhaps, you'll find other riches later this year...
   
  Maybe we could revisit this later in the year.


----------



## Silent One

Late!
   
  I was among the last one's here to board the Tung-Sol Train. I spent an entire year looking at pix, video and reading forum posts. With each passing month there seem to be an uptick in price, used and NOS alike. 
   
  I was sold early on getting a pair. Simply could not afford it. The more members saw me leaning with interest, the more convincing the arguments. Once prices ran away, I purged the famed tube from my memory... until I at least get a job.
   
  But it must be said, during an incidental chat with Xcalibur255, he expressed the tube's merit so eloquently, I reserved a pair that night. I decided to forgo a couple of trips to the Goodie Store and fast some; we are happy.


----------



## xchagg

1) Tung-Sol BGRP
  2) Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (brown base chrome top, triple rivet box plate, one support rod)
  3) Raytheon VT-231
  4) CBS 6SN7GTB
  5) National Union Black Glass - Interesting tube, this was very euphonic in my old setup
   
  Abovementioned tubes were heard in a Darkvoice DV336i with a Bendix 6080 in the rear, driving a HD650 - #1 and 2 got 90% of the play time.
   
  When the ECS7 finally arrives, I plan to roll some Bad Boys, staggered plate Ken-Rads, and an Osram B65 (couldn't resist for $95) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Probably will need to reshuffle my top-5 list afterwards too.


----------



## xchagg

Oops, double post.


----------



## rosgr63

It's good to have a "preference" call from time to time.
  That's how we can "rediscover" forgotten tubes and evaluate different ones.
   
   
  BTW the Bendix 6080 is a wonderful tube IMHO.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> It's good to have a "preference" call from time to time.
> That's how we can "rediscover" forgotten tubes and evaluate different ones.
> 
> 
> BTW the Bendix 6080 is a wonderful tube IMHO.


 

 Or become exposed for the very first time. Interested in learning, I great benefits to visiting this thread.


----------



## kiertijai

I found one interesting 6SN7's or equivalent and would like to ask how good are they?
  The seller said that they are similar to the 33S30B and 5692 's. They are Tesla 6SN7's


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks SO.
   
  I for one have lots to learn.
  Tube history is fascinating.


----------



## kiertijai

Are these CV181 of Mullard?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Thanks SO.
> 
> I for one have lots to learn.
> Tube history is fascinating.


 

 I hope to do so, while I hold on to my wallet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just started a late-night session @ 0200 hours. Giving the Sylvania Tall Bottle's a quick run. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 First impressions are early & ugly. But, I'll stay the course. No one should bail after a single track, now should they? In fairness to the lonely tubes, they've been boxed and sitting for a very long time.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> At least 2/3 of the time the VT-231 and 6SN7GT branded tubes from the same manufacturer in the same time period are the exact same tube.  VT-231s often went through an additional round of testing to meet military criteria, but physically they were the same tubes.  There are exceptions though.  A good example would be Raytheon and Sylvania tubes which have extra support rods in their VT-231 and W versions respectively.


 


  With my 1949 Raytheon 6SN7W's, they lack the extra support rod but are mil-spec, passing military criteria.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Does anyone like the sound of Sylvania tall bottle ?


 


  I took a sip of the Sylvania JAN-6SN7WGTA. Wasn't my tea. Admittedly, this pair has been boxed and sitting for quite some time. I fired up Amarra and let the tubes warm up for an hour. Sadly, I could only last an hour - the exercise proved fatiguing. 
   
  While I found the presentation to be less than satisfactory, even with extended play-in (a week to 21 days) I would only expect them to be merely satisfactory. Hard to tell with a Fly-by. I received the Tall Bottles from musicman59 some months back. Perhaps, he could express if this pair have more in them.
   
  I sampled a handful of tracks at different resolutions:
   
  - "Holidays" Abraham Laboriel, Sr. 16/44.1 kHz
  - "Red Clay" The Patrice Rushen Trio 24/96 kHz
  - "Non-Stop to Brazil" Astrud Gilberto 16/44.1 kHz
  - "Golden Girl" Al Jarreau 16/44.1 kHz
  - "Sympathy For The Devil" The Rolling Stones 24/88.2 kHz
  - "I Don't Want To Lose Your Love" The Emotions 16/44.1 kHz
   
  My sweeping indictment? They lacked clarity, focus, timbre, detail and spacing. Suffered from a small presentation, sounded somewhat dull and lifeless. Try as I might, I couldn't tap my foot to any of the tracks - the pair simply could not swing. Also sounded veiled, akin to the groups playing in a small living room that has curtains separating it from the dining/kitchen area. You could still make things out, but it clearly sounds like something is in between you and the music.
   
  None of the musicians above could save my session. I had an opportunity to see Abraham Laboriel in concert at La Ve Lee's in Studio City. He's probably got the smoothest Bass in the game. It is said that he is the most widely used session bassist of our time. Who hasn't he worked with?!
   
  Anyway, his licks were marred; had no real definition. Piano, Bass & Drums with The Patrice Rushen Trio sound severely DULL. Astrud's feather-light vocals appeared muffled. Al Jarreau? Out of sheer respect, I feel the need to send the brother an email apologizing for the apparent lack of effort on these tube's part. Poor Mick, sounded constrained; under pressure. Lastly, The female vocal group The Emotions, backed by Earth, Wind & Fire, worked hard to save this session. If you're familiar with The Emotions and their crystal clear and honey-drenched vocals, you'd know they stood a chance! Especially with EWF's Rhythm section and sweet sounding horns... but it wasn't meant to be. 
   
  I know things could get better with time, but I'm not that curious at this writing. Plus, I miss my newly acquired TS-BGRP's! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm posting a pix of both the Syl Tall Bottle and another Syl that looks like a GT style bottle on the left but no idea what it is.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Oh no good then.  Thanks.  I might get Tung Sol mouse ears next.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Oh no good then.  Thanks.  I might get Tung Sol mouse ears next.


 

 I'm curious about the Tung-Sol Mouse Ears. Hope to hear them soon. And thanks for your patience. Also, I have another pair of Sylvania's - Short Base. If I recall, these and the other unidentified Syl may sound better than the 6SN7WTA's.
   
  I have to go to bed by sunrise. But I FULLY intend to reinsert the Tung-Sol's tonight and make up for the previous exercise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 _Oh, we're gonna swing, baby!_


----------



## Audio-Omega

Has anyone tried the Russian made Tung Sol 6SN7GTB reissued version ?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I found one interesting 6SN7's or equivalent and would like to ask how good are they?
> The seller said that they are similar to the 33S30B and 5692 's. They are Tesla 6SN7's


 


  Dear Kiertijai, I have used them on my SP Extreme.
  They sound fine.
  However as I read that they may not be direct replacement for the 6SN7 I never tried them on the BA.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> Are these CV181 of Mullard?


 

 I believe they are.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Has anyone tried the Russian made Tung Sol 6SN7GTB reissued version ?


 

 I have and I don't regard them highly.
   
  I recommend you try some vintage TS, they are not very expensive and worth the money.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





silent one said:


> I'm curious about the Tung-Sol Mouse Ears. Hope to hear them soon. And thanks for your patience. Also, I have another pair of Sylvania's - Short Base. If I recall, these and the other unidentified Syl may sound better than the 6SN7WTA's.
> 
> I have to go to bed by sunrise. But I FULLY intend to reinsert the Tung-Sol's tonight and make up for the previous exercise.
> 
> ...


 


 I had a pair od the Mouse Ears sometime ago but i was not crazy about them and they are gone now.


----------



## kiertijai

Here is the description of that Tesla 6SN7 or 6CC110 (google translate from Japanese to English)
         _unused 6CC10 of TESLA still have not seen at auction overseas, is an exhibition of the same Rottopea. __TESLA is the age between 1940-50, there was a vacuum tube system compatible with two types of 6SN7. 6CC1 is a compatible product before and after 1950, until the end stage is 6CC10 from mid-1950s, is almost the same structurally.
 The official name of this tube is 6CC10, was manufactured in the plant is the main factory ROZNOV of TESLA. No. 6CC10 is still called, is present in the vacuum tube system Number of Russian-made 6SN7, 6CC10 now is almost the same as 6N8S (6H8C) of so-called Eastern Europe Part structurally. Contents of this tube, and they are quite different, is a super super scarce goods deserve to be called a prototype of the structure of the original 6CC1 or 6CC10 this TESLA. The structure of this pre-tube has been very very similar to 5692, represented by the RCA, this support of five thick rod support spring spacers suppress the vibration plate with a small rib of length 25mm, at the top of mica, the mica sheets 3, It has characteristics such as the square getter in the top two. Vacuum tube with a similar structure that are essentially two types of 33S30B 5692, SWEDEN of RCA, of ERICSSON, or imitation or by chance, camp three major Western Europe, Scandinavia and Eastern Europe 1950 to the same vacuum tube system 6SN7 same concept happens to will be had to. Moreover, these three species has been manufacturing equipment for the military only as a radar tube and all. It was built is 5692 for RCA is 1951 By the way, because is the midst of the Cold War, there was a technology licensing from RCA were not considered to flow into Eastern Europe is 33S30B of ERICSSON of SWEDEN has received technical assistance of RCA probably I think that would be more natural to think of Te have been copied. This pair is old-fashioned look, the print has a half-moon-shaped country of MADE IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA under the print than all your left firmly, TESLA, that 6CC1. Is illegible, but apparently there is a production lot number on the opposite side of the glass. AT1000 vacuum tube as measured by the latest digital measuring instrument, of Amplitrex, the plate voltage is 250V, = 9.0mA expected value Em, = 2.6mA expected value of Gm for (2600mmhos), each pole, Em = 9.6mA 6 #, numeric value greater than the expected value also say Em = 9.6mA, and Gm = 3.4mA each pole, Em = 9.4mA, and Gm = 3.0mA, Em = 11.5mA, Gm = 3.4mA, and the # 8 Gm = 3.2mA, Because to achieve, we have determined that an *unused item*. 0.0μA leakage poles, gas is # 6 = 0.2-0.2mA, is 8 = 0.4-0.4mA #, 10mA are significantly below the allowable value of the approximate gas tube GT. Bulk goods for military use_


----------



## rosgr63

Kiertijai, thanks for the info.
  BTW what are your top 5 6SN7's?
   
  Blackmore, John57, Oskari, Rob N, we are waiting for your lists.
  And from anybody else who would like to contribute please.


----------



## Silent One

For reference, is it "Gray Glass" or "Grey Glass" when properly referring to these type of tubes?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





silent one said:


> For reference, is it "Gray Glass" or "Grey Glass" when properly referring to these type of tubes?


 


  It depends if you are American or English!


----------



## Blackmore

These looks bit differ than the pair I own. They have smaller base, RFT kind, and bit differ plates construction , also such "ears" that hanging on the top sides  are not inside my pair, so, this tube is new for me and I cant say anything about the sound, but I would say, dont ask about the sound, just get them, cos these are rare looking monkeys
   
  Just wonder, these red stemps, are these Russian OTK stemps? If yes, what would that mean, its clearly says Made in Czehoslovakia, or maybe made in Russia after all? Or, which is very possible, they were made for Russian military needs and therefor were passed extra check before they have been used, anyone???

  
  Here are my
   




   
   




   
   
   




   
   
   
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I found one interesting 6SN7's or equivalent and would like to ask how good are they?
> The seller said that they are similar to the 33S30B and 5692 's. They are Tesla 6SN7's


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> It depends if you are American or English!


 


  What did RCA use?


----------



## john57

My best 6SN7 tube is the Tung-Sol reissue made in Russia. This tube by far has the greatest clarity, natural and detailed sounding tube ever made when driving the Tung-Sol 6080 tubes.  This tube also has one of the lowest noise I ever encounter and that is important since I am trying out the Beyerdynamic T 70 headphone and the T70 has the greatest sensitivity  for around the ear headphone and InnerFidelity stated that this headphone only needs 0.03 mW for 90dB SPL. The 6SN7 Tung-Sol reissue looks somewhat like a clone of the 5692 tube more than the older US Tung-Sol which I have but did not like. 
My second choice is the CBS JAN 5692 brown base and third is the Hitachi 6SN7 and last very close is the Russia 6SN7 with silver grids which in some music I like better than the Hitachi tube.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





silent one said:


> I took a sip of the Sylvania JAN-6SN7WGTA. Wasn't my tea. Admittedly, this pair has been boxed and sitting for quite some time. I fired up Amarra and let the tubes warm up for an hour. Sadly, I could only last an hour - the exercise proved fatiguing.
> 
> While I found the presentation to be less than satisfactory, even with extended play-in (a week to 21 days) I would only expect them to be merely satisfactory. Hard to tell with a Fly-by. I received the Tall Bottles from musicman59 some months back. Perhaps, he could express if this pair have more in them.
> 
> ...


 


  The tube on the right was pretty much the end of the evolutionary line for Slyvania's tube development and was made in that style all the way up to the early 80's I believe.  I've never heard one myself but I don't see them all that highly spoken of.  The tube on the left is the rather uncommon ladder plate Sylvania.  Very few opinions on this tube really, but they are supposed to sound pretty good.
   
  Based on what I know of your preferences I'm not sure you'll like the mouse ear Tung Sol in your amp.  While I think it is a good tube, I don't care for how it sounds in the Woo amps.  A rather dry and uninvolving sound that is good but not inspiring.  The BGRP is better in every possible way you can think of IMO.  In my OTL it is striking for how transparent and uncolored it is which is why it made my list.  It really lets the sonic character of the output tubes show strongly because it seems to not have much of its own, which can definitely be a useful strength in the right circumstances.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The tube on the right was pretty much the end of the evolutionary line for Slyvania's tube development and was made in that style all the way up to the early 80's I believe.  I've never heard one myself but I don't see them all that highly spoken of.  The tube on the left is the rather uncommon ladder plate Sylvania.  Very few opinions on this tube really, but they are supposed to sound pretty good.
> 
> Based on what I know of your preferences I'm not sure you'll like the mouse ear Tung Sol in your amp.  While I think it is a good tube, I don't care for how it sounds in the Woo amps.  A rather dry and uninvolving sound that is good but not inspiring.  The BGRP is better in every possible way you can think of IMO.  In my OTL it is striking for how transparent and uncolored it is which is why it made my list.  It really lets the sonic character of the output tubes show strongly because it seems to not have much of its own, which can definitely be a useful strength in the right circumstances.


 

 Thanks. I remember both the Sylvania Short Base and the unmarked Syl above sounding better than the 6SN7WGTA. But, since it was a "Drive-by" it got a scant listen - I rolled some 6 to 7 pairs in 16 hours. I may have to revisit your _uncommon ladder plate Syl_ later tonight and tomorrow. I could very well have overlooked potential inside my wooden box. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for weighing in...
   
  And to think, without your motivational sales pitch, I'd be "Tung-less!"


----------



## kiertijai

*Kiertijai, thanks for the info.*
*BTW what are your top 5 6SN7's?*
      The 6SN7's or equivalents that I frequently used
      1. Mullard ECC33
      2. Tungsol 6F8G's black glass roundplate (or Tungsol BGRP)
      3. KenRad 6F8G's  or (KenRad VT231)
      4. Telefunken 6SN7GT
      5. Sylvania 6SN7W metal base


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> These looks bit differ than the pair I own. They have smaller base, RFT kind, and bit differ plates construction , also such "ears" that hanging on the top sides  are not inside my pair, so, this tube is new for me and I cant say anything about the sound, but I would say, dont ask about the sound, just get them, cos these are rare looking monkeys
> 
> Just wonder, these red stemps, are these Russian OTK stemps? If yes, what would that mean, its clearly says Made in Czehoslovakia, or maybe made in Russia after all? Or, which is very possible, they were made for Russian military needs and therefor were passed extra check before they have been used, anyone?


 

 Blackmore they are not the same tubes, yours are Tesla 6CC1 and Kiertijai's 6CC10.
  I have both and sound wise they are nice but IMHO one should not pay too much for them.
   
  If you look how the support rods are bent it says a lot about the quality.
  You can see a detaild photo at an earlier post.
  They were not very well made.
  Jac who rebased some of mine confirmed that.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is your Tung Sol bright sounding ?
  
  Quote: 





john57 said:


> My best 6SN7 tube is the Tung-Sol reissue made in Russia.


----------



## Blackmore

But of course, I knew I saw them somewhere, man, I need some good stimulating memory pills
   
  THX

  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Blackmore they are not the same tubes, yours are Tesla 6CC1 and Kiertijai's 6CC10.
> I have both and sound wise they are nice but IMHO one should not pay too much for them.
> 
> If you look how the support rods are bent it says a lot about the quality.
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Blackmore here is your stimulation:
   
  Your 5 favorite 6SN7's!


----------



## Blackmore

I agree with rosgr63, buy them only if they are cheap, but I saw them and the seller wants EUR330 for them, no go, if you ask me.
  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> Here is the description of that Tesla 6SN7 or 6CC110 (google translate from Japanese to English)
> _unused 6CC10 of TESLA still have not seen at auction overseas, is an exhibition of the same Rottopea. __TESLA is the age between 1940-50, there was a vacuum tube system compatible with two types of 6SN7. 6CC1 is a compatible product before and after 1950, until the end stage is 6CC10 from mid-1950s, is almost the same structurally.
> The official name of this tube is 6CC10, was manufactured in the plant is the main factory ROZNOV of TESLA. No. 6CC10 is still called, is present in the vacuum tube system Number of Russian-made 6SN7, 6CC10 now is almost the same as 6N8S (6H8C) of so-called Eastern Europe Part structurally. Contents of this tube, and they are quite different, is a super super scarce goods deserve to be called a prototype of the structure of the original 6CC1 or 6CC10 this TESLA. The structure of this pre-tube has been very very similar to 5692, represented by the RCA, this support of five thick rod support spring spacers suppress the vibration plate with a small rib of length 25mm, at the top of mica, the mica sheets 3, It has characteristics such as the square getter in the top two. Vacuum tube with a similar structure that are essentially two types of 33S30B 5692, SWEDEN of RCA, of ERICSSON, or imitation or by chance, camp three major Western Europe, Scandinavia and Eastern Europe 1950 to the same vacuum tube system 6SN7 same concept happens to will be had to. Moreover, these three species has been manufacturing equipment for the military only as a radar tube and all. It was built is 5692 for RCA is 1951 By the way, because is the midst of the Cold War, there was a technology licensing from RCA were not considered to flow into Eastern Europe is 33S30B of ERICSSON of SWEDEN has received technical assistance of RCA probably I think that would be more natural to think of Te have been copied. This pair is old-fashioned look, the print has a half-moon-shaped country of MADE IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA under the print than all your left firmly, TESLA, that 6CC1. Is illegible, but apparently there is a production lot number on the opposite side of the glass. AT1000 vacuum tube as measured by the latest digital measuring instrument, of Amplitrex, the plate voltage is 250V, = 9.0mA expected value Em, = 2.6mA expected value of Gm for (2600mmhos), each pole, Em = 9.6mA 6 #, numeric value greater than the expected value also say Em = 9.6mA, and Gm = 3.4mA each pole, Em = 9.4mA, and Gm = 3.0mA, Em = 11.5mA, Gm = 3.4mA, and the # 8 Gm = 3.2mA, Because to achieve, we have determined that an *unused item*. 0.0μA leakage poles, gas is # 6 = 0.2-0.2mA, is 8 = 0.4-0.4mA #, 10mA are significantly below the allowable value of the approximate gas tube GT. Bulk goods for military use_


 


   


  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Blackmore they are not the same tubes, yours are Tesla 6CC1 and Kiertijai's 6CC10.
> I have both and sound wise they are nice but IMHO one should not pay too much for them.
> 
> If you look how the support rods are bent it says a lot about the quality.
> ...


----------



## cacatalysis

If anybody has any experience with TS 6F8G black glass/black rib plates, I would very much apppreciate your impression, especially in comparison with the round plate type.  I also did not hear much about the flate plate type of TS 6F8G.


----------



## kiertijai

*I agree with rosgr63, buy them only if they are cheap, but I saw them and the seller wants EUR330 for them, no go, if you ask me.
    *Thanks, I also think I will not go for this pair  450$ is too much.
   
*If anybody has any experience with TS 6F8G black glass/black rib plates, I would very much apppreciate your impression, especially in comparison with the round plate type.  I also did not hear much about the flate plate type of TS 6F8G. *
      I only have the Tungsol 6F8G's VT99  round plate early version and another Tungsol 6F8G square plate? and the round plate version beat the other one easily IMO
*         *


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> However as I read that they may not be direct replacement for the 6SN7 I never tried them on the BA.


 
   
  The 6CC10 is a direct replacement according to http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/short/054/2/275.pdf but you can also compare http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/short/032/6/6CC10.gif with http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> If you look how the support rods are bent it says a lot about the quality.


 
   
  Couldn't that be by design, though?
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Blackmore, John57, Oskari, Rob N, we are waiting for your lists.


 
   
  I've really only got a top 1 currently. It consists of the 6F8G by NU. Others I've liked include Fivre and Br. Tungsram.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> What did RCA use?


 
   
  Quite possibly neither.
   
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The tube on the right was pretty much the end of the evolutionary line for Slyvania's tube development and was made in that style all the way up to the early 80's I believe.  I've never heard one myself but I don't see them all that highly spoken of.


 
   
  That's perhaps not the most exciting tube on the planet but it's a good solid tube nevertheless.


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, who tried EH 6SN7 and what are your impressions?


----------



## Skylab

I tried those and I thought they were god awful.


----------



## dminches

And, Cary's $8500 top of the line pre amp ships with them!  I don't get it.


----------



## dminches

Did Dumont manufacture tubes or are they just someone else's relabel?


----------



## john57

The DuMont company itself only made CRTs, and never
 made receiving tubes. DuMont marketed relabeled tubes from numerous
 sources many from Philips. I have 3DG4 tubes that said Dumont


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, its hard to believe "our" Cary preamps ship with those awful EH's.  Then again, we both had better tubes to feed them.
   
  I have some really nice Dumont 6BL7's that are Sylvanias.


----------



## kiertijai

*I've really only got a top 1 currently. It consists of the 6F8G by NU. Others I've liked include Fivre and Br. Tungsram.*
      @Oskari Thanks, It's the time that I revisit those tubes :NU 6F8G round plate, Fivre or SICTE 6SN7's, Tungsram's


----------



## Xcalibur255

I have a 5V3 labeled DuMont that was Sylvania made as well.  The whole thing rattles inside because the mica spacer isn't tight against the glass.  It gave me the impression that DuMont was re-selling B stock tubes from other makers.  Of course it could have simply happened from excessive handling of the tube as well.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I tried those and I thought they were god awful.


 

  
  X2
  I tried 3 of them that came with an amp and they were awful.


----------



## kiertijai

This pair of Tungsol 6F8G's black glass round plate was sold at 299$
  I almost made a bid but the bidding had gone wild during the last 45 minutes
  and drove the price from 100+ to 299$  I planned to spend only 150$ .  I already
  have one pair or else I might try harder to bid
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280817248138?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649


----------



## Skylab

Wow.  Looks like I should sell some of mine!


----------



## Xcalibur255

A beatiful NOS pair of NU round plate 6F8G in their original boxes went for a pretty reasonable sum just the other day.  I was watching it for fun, and even though I wasn't really interested there is always this temptation to bid on tubes in that kind of condition.  Most of my collection is white box, and even though that has no impact on how the tubes perform I kind of wish it wasn't so.  I love the designs and colors on those old boxes.
   
  I nabbed a beautiful pair of NOS Hytron 45's in their original boxes recently in preparation for something special coming up in the near future, and I just can't stop looking at them.  The boxes are in absurdly good condition too for something that was made in 1935.  Not even worn at the edges.  It really connects you to the history behind it all.


----------



## Silent One

That's fantastique! I know what you're sayin' about the history and making a connection with times past...


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Wow.  Looks like I should sell some of mine!


 







 It would appear Silent One has been looking in all the wrong places... we gotta talk!


----------



## kiertijai

The seller of that Tungsol 6F8G's said that he has nine other pairs with new test result.
  He will have more on auction soon,  wonder how high the price will go up.
*[size=small] I believe the tubes are new,  as they were installed into World War Two airplane "interphone" amplifiers, that were never used- the tubes were then collected from the amplifiers- I have nine other pairs. Tested on a Hickok TV-3 military tester that has been calibrated, just to make sure, test new as they should at 2750-2350 and 2450-2450 micromho where pass/fail is 1260 micromho. Firm bases, excellent silvering. They have the same exact structure inside and out, wartime production.[/size]*


----------



## Silent One

Tung-Sol 6F8G 
   
  Thanks, kiertijai. I just Bookmarked the link.... _with no money!_ Have I overlooked the signs of tube addiction?!


----------



## rosgr63

*SO stop reading this thread!*
*You'll become an addict too.*
   
  When the ebay God falls asleep one can get an excellent deal.
   
  A couple of days a go I got a NU 6SN7GT NIB square mica for  £24.
  The other TS square mica I have cost me a small fortune.
   
  Can't be unlucky/overpaying all the time!


----------



## kiertijai

@Stavros,  there are some that other  Thai head-fiers or other has mentioned about the 6SN7's or equivalent that
  they regards highly
     - Marconi Osram B65  (Craig loves the earlier version   BL63 Marconi similar adapter with 6F8G's)
     - Brimar or STC CV1988
     - Tungsram 6SN7's
     - Mullard 6SN7's
     - Toshiba 6SN7's (by audiotubes? the same level as Telefunken)
     - Philips Pope 6SN7's (by upscale audio, ? the same as Philips Pope ECC33)
     - Raytheon 6SN7 round plate    etc.


----------



## Skylab

It still strikes me as funny that just a couple of years ago, the 6F8G was a $8 tube.  And in fact, it is STILL an $8 tube at tube depot.com, but you never know what you will get.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> @Stavros,  there are some that other  Thai head-fiers or other has mentioned about the 6SN7's or equivalent that
> they regards highly
> - Marconi Osram B65  (Craig loves the earlier version   BL63 Marconi similar adapter with 6F8G's)
> - Brimar or STC CV1988
> ...


 

 Dear Kiertijai thanks for the info.
  Eventually we are going to have a top ten list for reference.
   
  I don't want to include any of the very expensive, rare and hard to get tubes, but more of the normal, easy to get ones.
  For example you can get a strong testing/NOS B65 anything from $160 to $750, so I will include the MOV B65 in the list.
   
  I have not seen a Raytheon 6SN7 RP and never used the Pope 6SN7 so I can't really say.
  If other readers have then I'll be happy to include them.


----------



## kiertijai

*I have not seen a Raytheon 6SN7 RP and never used the Pope 6SN7 so I can't really say.*
*If other readers have then I'll be happy to include them.*
*    *
*     *It was mentioned in Thai DiY but I do not see one either,  I only see the Raytheon 6SL7 round plate.
       We should forget that one.
   
*I don't want to include any of the very expensive, rare and hard to get tubes, but more of the normal, easy to get ones.*
*For example you can get a strong testing/NOS B65 anything from $160 to $750, so I will include the MOV B65 in the list*
       It does make sense.  Got what you would like to do. 
      
* *
*    *


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> @Stavros,  there are some that other  Thai head-fiers or other has mentioned about the 6SN7's or equivalent that
> they regards highly
> - Marconi Osram B65  (Craig loves the earlier version   BL63 Marconi similar adapter with 6F8G's)
> - Brimar or STC CV1988
> ...


 

 Are the Raytheon VT231s?  The ones I have are black ladder-type plates.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Are the Raytheon VT231s?  The ones I have are black ladder-type plates.


 


  Those, and the black-ladder plate Raytheon 6SN7WGT are great, and underrated.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Those, and the black-ladder plate Raytheon 6SN7WGT are great, and underrated.


 


  Do those have a brown base?


----------



## Skylab

The WGT's?  Yep.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> *SO stop reading this thread!*
> *You'll become an addict too.*
> 
> When the ebay God falls asleep one can get an excellent deal.
> ...


 

 Your newly acquired glass brings hope to many.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> The seller of that Tungsol 6F8G's said that he has nine other pairs with new test result.
> He will have more on auction soon,  wonder how high the price will go up.
> *[size=small] I believe the tubes are new,  as they were installed into World War Two airplane "interphone" amplifiers, that were never used- the tubes were then collected from the amplifiers- I have nine other pairs. Tested on a Hickok TV-3 military tester that has been calibrated, just to make sure, test new as they should at 2750-2350 and 2450-2450 micromho where pass/fail is 1260 micromho. Firm bases, excellent silvering. They have the same exact structure inside and out, wartime production.[/size]*


 


  I know that seller.  Bought my mouse ears from him.  Since he has been back on eBay he's had lots of nice stuff going up.  He is the one who sold the NU round plates too.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Those, and the black-ladder plate Raytheon 6SN7WGT are great, and underrated.


 


  I currently have these Ray's in the number two slot. A wonderful tube a good price. It was in fact, the first 6SN7 tube I came to love. My very first pair of 6SN7's were a bit pedestrian - NOS GE 6SN7GTA 1953. They were nice, clean but doesn't really stand out, save the sibilance. I can imagine it would improve in an amp with separate power tubes but plays it too safe on its own.


----------



## dminches

I have gotten several very nice pair of tubes from ayumitubes if that is the seller you are talking about.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I have gotten several very nice pair of tubes from ayumitubes if that is the seller you are talking about.


 


  That's not the seller, though I have bought tubes from Ayumitubes as well with good luck.  For a seller that only uses buy it now they have pretty reasonable prices on most of their tubes.  Especially somebody just starting out with trying 6SN7 tubes, as they have lots of very affordable GTB tubes and some nice Sylvanias listed all the time.


----------



## rosgr63

They offer money back warranty as well, not a bad seller.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Please excuse the detour, is Mullard CV181 worth getting ?


----------



## Skylab

Mullard CV-181 = ECC32.  So yes, IMHO, very worth getting, with the usual qualifier that it isn't really a 6SN7 and you have to make sure it will work OK in the amp you want to use it in.


----------



## Rob N

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> @Stavros,  there are some that other  Thai head-fiers or other has mentioned about the 6SN7's or equivalent that
> they regards highly
> - Marconi Osram B65  (Craig loves the earlier version   BL63 Marconi similar adapter with 6F8G's)
> - Brimar or STC CV1988
> ...


 

 Mullard didn't make any 6SN7's


----------



## rosgr63

Rob N, what are your favorite 5 6SN7's?


----------



## Audio-Omega

The glass of my 1949 Sylvania could be rotated by half a centimetre.  Do you think it's a problem ?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Loose bases are fairly common on tubes of that age, but its important that you don't twist the base.  The pins are connected electrically to the internals of the tube via solder points and you could loosen or break these by twisting the base.  Worst case it would produce a short in the tube which would make it unsafe to use.
   
  Otherwise there is no harm in the tube having a slightly loose base.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Thanks.  I was tempted to see how far it could go.


----------



## kiertijai

Is this the Raytheon 6SN7WGT brown base that was mentioned?
  Does it sound the same or similar to the RCA or GE or CBS 5692?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Thanks.  I was tempted to see how far it could go.


 


  Turn it gently to the right looking from the top until it doesn't move and use some nail varnish between the glass and base.
  Let it dry for a couple of hours and you're done.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is there a new tube that's as good as vintage ones ?  Sophia Electric is laid back and a bit recessed in the vocal.


----------



## xchagg

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Is there a new tube that's as good as vintage ones ?  Sophia Electric is laid back and a bit recessed in the vocal.


 

  
  The Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z might fit the bill?
   
  But at $200+ a pair, personally I'd rather buy a vintage NOS pair, or maybe an octet of GTB's


----------



## Audio-Omega

I have a Shuguang, it's nice but a bit grainy compared to my Sylvanias.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> Is this the Raytheon 6SN7WGT brown base that was mentioned?
> Does it sound the same or similar to the RCA or GE or CBS 5692?


 


  That is the one.  Nice tube.  Has a sound to its own.  Very dynamic, nicely detailed but not overly so; lush but not overly so. Well balanced, I guess.  Worth seeking out.  Not generally very expensive but still not all that easy to find.


----------



## dminches

I am now trying a pair of ITT/Hitachi 6SN7s in my DAC.  Got the pair (2 singles) for under $30!  Thanks Stavros!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Is there a new tube that's as good as vintage ones ?  Sophia Electric is laid back and a bit recessed in the vocal.


 


  IMHO NO!
   
  John57 would disagree, and I am fine with that.
  He has avery valid opinion which I respect.
   
  As I said before a lot depends on system synergy.


----------



## Rob N

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Rob N, what are your favorite 5 6SN7's?


 

 TS RP
  NU grey glass
  RCA grey glass
  Brimar CV 1988 black glass
  Sylvania bad boy
   
  Not necessarily in that order


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> The 6CC10 is a direct replacement according to http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/short/054/2/275.pdf but you can also compare http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/short/032/6/6CC10.gif with http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf
> 
> 
> Couldn't that be by design, though?


 

 I took another look at my 6CC10's rods, the random way they are bent does not suggest a pattern.
   


  Quote: 





dminches said:


> I am now trying a pair of ITT/Hitachi 6SN7s in my DAC.  Got the pair (2 singles) for under $30!  Thanks Stavros!


 
   

 Well done David, they are fine tubes and you just saved $470, not bad!
  I hope you like them, please let us know.
  Happy listening
   
   
  Quote: 





rob n said:


> TS RP
> NU grey glass
> RCA grey glass
> Brimar CV 1988 black glass
> ...


 


  Thanks Rob N.
  I see you too like NU & RCA grey glass.
   
  What about your NU 6F8G?


----------



## john57

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> I have a Shuguang, it's nice but a bit grainy compared to my Sylvanias.


 


  Thanks for the head-ups and I especially do not like grainy sound.


----------



## rosgr63

John, what are your Power Tubes at the minute?


----------



## john57

I am currently using the Tung-Sol 6080 power tubes that just happens to work with the Tung-Sol Russia 6SN7 and makes it a bit of a airy presentation instead of the crispy sound of the 6080WC.  Have a few to try later including the  CHATHAM 6AS7G that just came in at a good price. I am staying with the 3DG4 Rectifier tube since there is nothing on the market that can beat its price/electrical performance ratio.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rob n said:


> NU grey glass


 


  I've always wanted to hear this one.  But boy are they rare.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





john57 said:


> I am currently using the Tung-Sol 6080 power tubes that just happens to work with the Tung-Sol Russia 6SN7 and makes it a bit of a airy presentation instead of the crispy sound of the 6080WC.  Have a few to try later including the  CHATHAM 6AS7G that just came in at a good price. I am staying with the 3DG4 Rectifier tube since there is nothing on the market that can beat its price/electrical performance ratio.


 


  You'll have to let me know how you like the Chatham 6AS7.  If your reaction to them is as positive as mine was you won't want to put your 6080 back in.  Still think fellow owners should give the 5998 a shot though, it isn't right for every type of music but it definitely impresses on some fronts.  Hopefully tomorrow I'll get to find out of the mod Glenn made to my amp will make the 5998 my more or less permanent choice of tube for the amp.


----------



## rosgr63

Actually there are two types of Tung-Sol 6AS7G:
  A.The early 50's type with steel posts and lower cooling plates
  B.The later version with copper posts and no cooling plates at the bottom.
   
  I have tried the copper post version with a Sylvania 6SN7W driver and I like it.
   
  Waiting for a pair of the early type.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I've seen them with and without copper post, and ones with all black plates and ones where the "tabs" of the anode plates inserting into the micas are silver colored.  I've never seen a version with cooling plates at the bottom.  I'm guessing they are quiet rare.  To my ears the different style plates don't affect tone, as I have a mis-matched pair that sounds balanced tonally in each channel.  As far as I can tell the Chathams, at least the Tung Sol made ones, always had the copper posts.
   
  I do have the early version of the 5998 with the horseshoe shaped heat readiators attached to both the top *and* bottom of the posts.  Most of them don't have them at the bottom.
   
  I'm looking forward to tomorrow's listening test.


----------



## rosgr63

What makes tubes of the same type and even of the same maker sound different?
   
  A lot depends on the circuit/amp and if the tube is in a driver or output position, but what are the reasons, any ideas?
   
  One of my Tube Gurus thinks it's the spacing of the elements.


----------



## Blackmore

Are we talking about NU Fully coated glass VT-231 type here?

  
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I've always wanted to hear this one.  But boy are they rare.


----------



## musicman59

I scored last night a pair of Sylvania 6F8G tubes with balck glass and round plates for $40 plus shipping. The construction looks very similar to the Tungsol BGRP 6F8G tubes. Will see how they soud when they get here.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I didn't like Brimar CV 1988 6SN7GTY until I listened to the film scores of Star Wars.  The sound is fast and tight, with solid drums and sharp trumpets.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I do have the early version of the 5998 with the horseshoe shaped heat readiators attached to both the top *and* bottom of the posts.  Most of them don't have them at the bottom.
> 
> I'm looking forward to tomorrow's listening test.


 


  Any chance of a photo please?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Any chance of a photo please?


 


  They're still in the mail at the moment.  Those little heat radiators normally on the top mica are also on the bottom, that's really the only difference.  At some point they decided they were not necessary I guess.
   
  edit:  that sounded unclear.  I didn't just buy them, they went with the amp for testing purposes and now I'm waiting for everything to come back.


----------



## john57

Since heat rises having radiators at the bottom probability does not help as much as radiators on top. I have noticed that some 6AS7 tubes are using unpainted copper radiators at the bottom.


----------



## john57

I am planning on getting a tube tester. I wanted to get a tester that will measure leakage on the meter instead of a lamp. In order to maximize the use of my investment I am going to plot the GM reading at normal voltage and one step lower using an Excel spreadsheet. That way I can investigate how fast the tube will age and the aging effects on SQ of the tube. Each time I change a tube or decided to try a different tube I will measure the tube I took out and the new tube and graph it each over time. I do not see the sense of spending the money getting a tube tester just to weed out tubes that will pass or no go.  I have locked in my choices of the driver tube and the rectifier but still working a bit on the power tube side at this point.


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur, is your amp going to be fine tuned for the 5998's?
   
  I am still lookimg for a 6AS7G fitted with copper radiators.
  I've only seen a photo.


----------



## john57

I noticed that there is a 6AS7G made by GE that has the copper bottom radiators.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170777853633?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
   
  P.S. It looks so nice I brought it! I hope it sounds good.


----------



## luke99

They are pretty.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah those GEs are unusual.  I have never seen that before.  A lot of my Tung-Sol 6AS7Gs have regular radiators at the top and bottom.  But I agree with X, the not copper rod Tung Sol 6AS7 I have ever seen is really a Chatham.  Tung Sol purchased Chatham, but I think it was actually Chatham that was making these even after the acquisition.


----------



## Oskari

Those copper radiators have appeared before – in the 6AS7G thread (hint hint).


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I took another look at my 6CC10's rods, the random way they are bent does not suggest a pattern.


 
   
  I just thought that the bulging rods in the photo that follows seem intentional, somehow.
  
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


>


----------



## Blackmore

The worker was probably dronk and made them longer than need, so, they have to push them a bit to fit inside the glass
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> I just thought that the bulging rods in the photo that follows seem intentional, somehow.


----------



## dminches

I can hear it now "Damn, we bent the rods again.  You guys need to be more careful.  Put that in the pile to be sold on ebay 50 years from now."


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> What makes tubes of the same type and even of the same maker sound different?
> 
> One of my Tube Gurus thinks it's the spacing of the elements.


 

 Inter-electrode spacing, intra-electrode spacing (grids), materials, coatings, ... (?)


----------



## john57

Also the number and location of getters could make a difference on the same tube type.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> I just thought that the bulging rods in the photo that follows seem intentional, somehow.


 


  Well photos can be deceiving at times.
  Look at these two.


----------



## Oskari

Those look quite different.


----------



## john57

distortions in the glass? the bottom picture still shows a very slight bend.


----------



## Blackmore

I just missed this pair, but bought a single one from the same seller, same tube, any thoughts?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





john57 said:


> distortions in the glass? the bottom picture still shows a very slight bend.


 


  Actually each rod is bent differently, in a random fashion.
  At least the tubes I have are like that.
  The glass quality is poor as per Jac van de Walle's info after he did some work on 5 of my tubes.
   
  Blackmore they look very nice!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Xcalibur, is your amp going to be fine tuned for the 5998's?
> 
> I am still lookimg for a 6AS7G fitted with copper radiators.
> I've only seen a photo.


 


  Yes.  I asked Glenn to add a switchable pair of cathode resistors to let the 5998 have more plate current than it normally gets in a 6AS7G circuit.  There is a toggle switch on the back of the amp now so either tube can be optimized.  I'll get to hear the results tonight actually.  Glenn sounded positive about the results so I'm pretty excited to hear it.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> I just missed this pair, but bought a single one from the same seller, same tube, any thoughts?


 

 Exceptionally rare and superior to the common black glass version from what I have been told.  Aside from the grey coating the horse shoe shaped heat radiators help set it apart from the later NU tubes.  They are very reminiscent of the ones on the BGRP Tung Sols.  This is one of the few 6SN7 left I wish I owned and don't yet.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Exceptionally rare and superior to the common black glass version from what I have been told.  Aside from the grey coating the horse shoe shaped heat radiators help set it apart from the later NU tubes.  They are very reminiscent of the ones on the BGRP Tung Sols.  This is one of the few 6SN7 left I wish I owned and don't yet.


 

 Aren't these black glass or are you saying there is a different black glass version?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Aren't these black glass or are you saying there is a different black glass version?


 

 Those are grey, like the RCA VT-231.  I think the photo is just a bit dark.  The NU tubes were grey coated in the beginning then changed to black.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Yes.  I asked Glenn to add a switchable pair of cathode resistors to let the 5998 have more plate current than it normally gets in a 6AS7G circuit.  There is a toggle switch on the back of the amp now so either tube can be optimized.  I'll get to hear the results tonight actually.  Glenn sounded positive about the results so I'm pretty excited to hear it.


 


  Didn't quite turn out how I was hoping it would.  Biggest surprise is it results in even more detail.  The clarity and focus is really something.  Bad part is it makes the amp sound sterile and quite SS-ish.  I can't connect emotionally with the new sound, which is what matters most in the end.
   
  I still think it was worth doing though.  The effect it had for piano music was almost entirely positive, so the switch can be flipped for the material that it brings improvements for rather than being left in the new mode all the time.


----------



## Xcalibur255

One entirely positive thing is the bass.  Solid state sounding in a *good* way.  Anybody who thinks tube bass needs to sound soft or slow needs to hear _this_.  It strikes like lightning, the attack on notes in general is just amazing.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> One entirely positive thing is the bass.  Solid state sounding in a *good* way.  Anybody who thinks tube bass needs to sound soft or slow needs to hear _this_.  It strikes like lightning, the attack on notes in general is just amazing.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Didn't quite turn out how I was hoping it would.  Biggest surprise is it results in even more detail.  The clarity and focus is really something.  Bad part is it makes the amp sound sterile and quite SS-ish.  I can't connect emotionally with the new sound, which is what matters most in the end.
> 
> I still think it was worth doing though.  The effect it had for piano music was almost entirely positive, so the switch can be flipped for the material that it brings improvements for rather than being left in the new mode all the time.


 

 Sorry to hear of your disappointment. The switch is quite clever. And to me, worth the pursuit - sometimes there are rewards to be had.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> I just missed this pair, but bought a single one from the same seller, same tube, any thoughts?


 


  So, what do they tend to go for? Any idea what they sound like? Yes, I'm quietly rubbing my hands together...


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Sorry to hear of your disappointment. The switch is quite clever. And to me, worth the pursuit - sometimes there are rewards to be had.


 


  That's how I feel about it, and the point has also been proven.  If you accomodate its plate current needs properly instead of just letting it live off of whatever a 6AS7 circuit gives it (which isn't enough), the 5998 shows untapped potential.  My sort of "aww" reaction mostly comes from not making that emotional connection with the music, which is why we listen in the long run.  If you temporarily set that aside the improvement in clarity and transparency is quite substantial and really came as a surprise to me.  I imagine people who like the 7236 would be blown away by a properly fed 5998.  The mod unleashed the beast and from an analytical point of view I'm impressed.  Then the heart strings tug and say "we're not clicking" and I become torn.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Thank goodness I can put it back to the way it sounded before at the flip of a switch.


----------



## john57

I always wanted clarity and transparency in a tube amp as my first priority. Then a good airy presentation to the sound. I also have to make sure that my source and  supporting equipment are up to the task of keeping everything as musical as possible. In other words I want the amp to be very analytical but musical at the same time. My tube choices reflect that.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think you'd be impressed by this mod then.  It leans more towards analytical than musical to my ears, but the jump in clarity was pretty big I must say.  I must also admit I'm receiving the sound a bit better now that I've taken a break and re-visited.  My intial choice of tracks accidentally made the clinical sound worse than it apparently is as I'm now finding some stuff that sounds really wonderful running off the new 5998 setting as well.  Everything sounds clearer, but not everything is more enjoyable is the best way to put it, but instrumental tracks benefit almost universally.  The amp just screams power with the new setting too, very dynamic.  I'm feeling better and better about the change the more I listen, but I'm glad I can always go back and forth between the two sounds too.
   
  I have great respect for the 5998 tube now.  It is much better than most people know running it in 6AS7 circuits.  It really blows the 6AS7 away for clarity and realism.


----------



## john57

Your brain will adjust to the more clarity and hopefully it will become more normal and natural as time goes by. One drawback is that poor recordings may not sound as good. Happy for you.


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur, which driver are you using?


----------



## Blackmore

Just receieved these very nice bambino's.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





john57 said:


> Your brain will adjust to the more clarity and hopefully it will become more normal and natural as time goes by. One drawback is that poor recordings may not sound as good. Happy for you.


 

 Thanks, and I think there is a lot of truth to your statement.  I believe my initial reaction was overly negative because I was hoping to be greeted by the same lovely warm sound I heard from the amp the first time I ever played it (with the always syrupy RCA 6AS7Gs in admittedly) only with more fine detail, and what greeted me was something different.  Definitely was worth doing, and the more I listen the more it is agreeing with me too.  Funny thing about poor recordings, some of them do have more edge to them, but some actually sound better too with less harshness than before.  I never know what I'm going to get when I revisit each familiar song.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Xcalibur, which driver are you using?


 


  Sylvania 6SN7GT Chrome Dome.  The ones whose getter flash covers almost the entire glass, not the later types.  It has been my preferred tube in both of my tube amps so far, excepting the Tung Sols.  The round plates have never been in this amp actually, something I'm planning to try out very soon.


----------



## john57

[size=11pt]Some people will state that tubes will never match the clarity of Solid State, I disagree. I need good clarity so that in addition to music I use my amp for movies and TV shows.  If my amp has a gritty or grainy texture to the sound then I will state that there is some wrong with the amp and that is one of the main issues that I had with Solid State audio equipment. Latter you may have to re-roll your favorite driver tubes to reaffirm your choices.[/size]


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Sylvania 6SN7GT Chrome Dome.  The ones whose getter flash covers almost the entire glass, not the later types.  It has been my preferred tube in both of my tube amps so far, excepting the Tung Sols.  The round plates have never been in this amp actually, something I'm planning to try out very soon.


 

 Maybe you should try one of the round plates and see if it mellows the 5998 a little.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> Maybe you should try one of the round plates and see if it mellows the 5998 a little.


 


  In the Woo the Sylvania was the more mellow tube actually.  The reason I like this particular type of Sylvania tube so much is because it is mellow but still nicely detailed.  I'm definitely trying the round plate though, as I suspect the amp's already holographic imaging with the new mod will be really something since I think that is the round plate's best quality.  I need to try the Hitachi soon too as I have a hunch it will work well with the new setting also.
   
  It's growing on me though.  I hope my initial impression didn't sound overly negative because I am quite impressed actually.  John is right, I have a habit of not giving things enough time to settle in.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Just receieved these very nice bambino's.


 

 Another pair? I thought you already had one.... I am envious!!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Just receieved these very nice bambino's.


 

 Very nice tubes, let us know how they sound.


  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> In the Woo the Sylvania was the more mellow tube actually.  The reason I like this particular type of Sylvania tube so much is because it is mellow but still nicely detailed.  I'm definitely trying the round plate though, as I suspect the amp's already holographic imaging with the new mod will be really something since I think that is the round plate's best quality.  I need to try the Hitachi soon too as I have a hunch it will work well with the new setting also.
> 
> It's growing on me though.  I hope my initial impression didn't sound overly negative because I am quite impressed actually.  John is right, I have a habit of not giving things enough time to settle in.


 

 I have been using TS 5998's and as RCA 6AS7G's for some time now.
  I think except the Hitachi, a Brimar black glass or a FIVRE or a RCA 6F8G are also worth trying.
   
  I am talking about tubes that cost less than $30 each, except the Brimar that may go higher.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> Another pair? I thought you already had one.... I am envious!!


 

 These are GTA style side getters, nice tubes for sure.


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]So far I have [/size]
   
  [size=10pt]1x pair Brown base, grey plates, D getter inside base[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]1x pair Brown base, black plates, D getter inside base[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]1x pair  Black base, grey plates, ? side getter ( kind of D, but not exactly )[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]1x piece Black base, grey plates, D getter inside base[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]1x piece Brown base, grey plates, D getter inside base[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]The tubes from the picture are fantastic sounding, like all Fivre's are, it's very balanced, not overly warm, bit on the neutral side with not to bloomy mids, but still very silky and keep the great detail and preciseness,  like I said, very balanced, everything is just there and its difficult to stop listen to them. I am using all Fivre's now, 1x input and 2x drivers brown base, grey plates.[/size]


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





john57 said:


> [size=11pt]Some people will state that tubes will never match the clarity of Solid State, I disagree. I need good clarity so that in addition to music I use my amp for movies and TV shows.  If my amp has a gritty or grainy texture to the sound then I will state that there is some wrong with the amp and that is one of the main issues that I had with Solid State audio equipment. Latter you may have to re-roll your favorite driver tubes to reaffirm your choices.[/size]


 


   
  I totally agree with this.  In fact, my tube Cary SLP-05 preamp has much better clarity than the solid state Krell it replaced in my system.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> [size=10pt]So far I have [/size]
> 
> [size=10pt]1x pair Brown base, grey plates, D getter inside base[/size]
> 
> ...


 


 You have too many Fivre pairs... should sell me one!


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I totally agree with this.  In fact, my tube Cary SLP-05 preamp has much better clarity than the solid state Krell it replaced in my system.


 


  Why would there be the notion that solid state = clarity?  If detail and clarity mean about the same thing, I have never found tube equipment to lack detail.  Some tubes result in more detail than others, but adding the warmth of tubes doesn't mean subtracting detail.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I think except the Hitachi, a Brimar black glass or a FIVRE or a RCA 6F8G are also worth trying.
> 
> I am talking about tubes that cost less than $30 each, except the Brimar that may go higher.


 

 I have some Brimar tubes, and have a love/hate relationship with them really.  Very competent tubes, but something in their midrange portrayal doesn't agree with me most of the time.  I've found it takes just the right rectifier to find the amount of B+ they want to sound balanced too.  Suspiciously enough I always thought they sounded best paired with a Brimar 5R4GY, though I think that tube pairs well with many drivers in general.


----------



## kiertijai

I saw one tube, the seller advertised as Mullard 6SN7 .  Is it another Brimar?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Those came up in this thread once before.  Maybe it was me and I don't remember.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I believe the consensus was that they are made for Mullard by Sylvania.  The plate style isn't Russian even though it looks similar, and the stop sign logo gives it away as an American tube.  It also looks close to the t-plate Tung Sols of the early 50's, but Sylvania is more likely.


----------



## Skylab

Almost surely Sylvania. Absolutely not Brimar.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Well, Glenn is spot on about the round plate tung sols in this amp.  They do relax the amp noticeably, all except for the most sibilance riddled songs which unfortunately get somewhat worse.  I was greeted with the larger and more three dimensional soundstage I was expecting too.  It makes it easier to listen deeper into the music.  These tubes make listening to music sort of like planetarium viewing.  Everywhere you "look" in the soundstage and stereo image there is something to discover.  They flesh out timbres in a more naturally real way than the Sylvanias too.  I think I'm most surprised by the bass though, as it doesn't even come close to competing with the explosive force and drive from the Sylvanias.  It's nicely controlled and has good texture/palpability but isn't nearly as propulsive or carries the same presence.  It does feel somewhat slower overall too.  As impressive as the Sylvania bass is this is easier on the ears I must admit.  With some material it feels like I was being physically beaten up after a while. 
   
  One of the curious things I noticed about the new setting with the 5998 tube is a very narrow frequency range in the lower mids which sometimes comes off as sounding glossy or veiled a bit with some material.  The round plates tend to make this a bit more obvious unfortunately, but it rarely shows up and only in certain vocal ranges.  It could be the headphones or another component in the system too.
   
  Unfortunately disaster also struck in tonights listening session.  I have a pair of these, and the first tube I tried in the amp howled like a banshee in the left channel.  Tapping the chassis near the tube momentarily quiets it down some so it is definitely microphonics.  I don't know what happened because both tubes worked perfectly and were dead silent the last time I used them.  I feel like I might as well have taken two hundred dollar bills and torn them up and thrown them away.  It makes you a little sick in your stomach.
   
  I guess that's how it goes.  At least my conundrum about whether to run one of them in the amp and break up the pair has resolved itself.  Not in the way I would have liked I'm afraid.


----------



## Silent One

So, the TS with issue is still alive, just troubled? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Or is it considered gone?!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





silent one said:


> So, the TS with issue is still alive, just troubled?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No idea if the noise could go away.  I intend to run it all day tomorrow to test that, as it is about the only thing I can do.  It's useless as it is now, the humming is omnipresent in the music.


----------



## john57

Are you talking about the driver tube? What might help is to take the cold tube upside down at a angle and hake it a bit so that any loose particles will be at the glass and slowly put the base down and any loose particles will fall at the base and not in the tube. Just a thought


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur, take out the TS 5998 and put them back in.
  Sometimes it cures the microphonics.
  John's trick is also good, I often do that.
  Make sure the tubes are cool/cold before you tap them.


----------



## kiertijai

*Those came up in this thread once before.  Maybe it was me and I don't remember.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*
   
*I believe the consensus was that they are made for Mullard by Sylvania.  The plate style isn't Russian even though it looks similar, and the stop sign logo gives it away as an American tube.  It also looks close to the t-plate Tung Sols of the early 50's, but Sylvania is more likely*.
     thanks,  I got confused and forgot about this  Mullard 6SN7's= Sylvania


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, are these any good and which year they were made?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
   
   
  And here is another one, any idea? THX


----------



## kchew

Blackmore, I have the second one, the VT-231 with flat ladder plates. They have a very dynamic, clear sound signature with very fast attack. They go surprisingly well with the HD800, but not as well with the LCD-2.
   
  I have to slot in the clear glass brown base Brimar CV1988 somewhere in my top 5 list now. I received mine on Tuesday and wow, they are mighty impressive with the LCD-2. First time I've heard such an expansive, airy sound stage with crystal clear midrange with these cans. Tomorrow I'll swap in my old black glass CV1988 and see how different the two Brimars are.


----------



## dminches

I am using the Raytheon VT231s in my DAC.  I really like them with my LCD-3s.  I did not like Brimar CV 1988 black glass in the same set up.  I found that they lacked detail and were just too warm sounding.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I have the VT-231 in the second picture as well and pretty much agree with kchew.  I'd add that they don't have the warmest tonal balance though, a bit midrange focused and can be slightly nasal depending upon the balance of the other tubes and components.  They're not bright though, if anything the treble is a bit shelved down.  Very good bass control.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Xcalibur, take out the TS 5998 and put them back in.
> Sometimes it cures the microphonics.
> John's trick is also good, I often do that.
> Make sure the tubes are cool/cold before you tap them.


 


  I'll try re-seating the power tubes next.  The second round plate is silent and is what I generated my listening impressions from.  I tapped the noisy one a bit this morning and put it back in the amp.  This time I had the headphones on when I started it up.  It is silent for about 8 seconds then the moaning gradually appears until it is a steady loud drone.  I can hear disturbances in the sound when the tube pings from parts expanding with heat so something must have shifted inside it the last time it was used.  I'm going to leave it on for an extended period and see if being steady warm does any good.  They were both trouble free when I used them in the Woo, which are very different operating conditions I'm sure but this feels like a noise caused by mechanical issues rather than electrical to me.
   
  edit:  if I tap my desk it upsets the tube with additional bursts of noise.  I think one of the metal retainer tabs must've shifted and is no longer holding the mica against the glass firmly letting the tube be sensitive to vibration.  In this state the soft vibration from the transformers and also from my PC traveling through the desk must be causing the steady hum.  That's my current guess anyway.  I may need to plug the Woo back into something and try them in that, that will tell me if something changed in the tube or not, but I remember giving both of these the "tap test" (against the amp chassis, not the glass) when I first used them and neither one reacted so they originally were not microphonic.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kchew said:


> Blackmore, I have the second one, the VT-231 with flat ladder plates. They have a very dynamic, clear sound signature with very fast attack. They go surprisingly well with the HD800, but not as well with the LCD-2.
> 
> I have to slot in the clear glass brown base Brimar CV1988 somewhere in my top 5 list now. I received mine on Tuesday and wow, they are mighty impressive with the LCD-2. First time I've heard such an expansive, airy sound stage with crystal clear midrange with these cans. Tomorrow I'll swap in my old black glass CV1988 and see how different the two Brimars are.


 
   
  What type of plates & getter does the clear glass Brimar have?
   
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> I am using the Raytheon VT231s in my DAC.  I really like them with my LCD-3s.  I did not like Brimar CV 1988 black glass in the same set up.  I found that they lacked detail and were just too warm sounding.


 

 David what type getter does your Brimar black glass have?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I'll try re-seating the power tubes next.  The second round plate is silent and is what I generated my listening impressions from.  I tapped the noisy one a bit this morning and put it back in the amp.  This time I had the headphones on when I started it up.  It is silent for about 8 seconds then the moaning gradually appears until it is a steady loud drone.  I can hear disturbances in the sound when the tube pings from parts expanding with heat so something must have shifted inside it the last time it was used.  I'm going to leave it on for an extended period and see if being steady warm does any good.  They were both trouble free when I used them in the Woo, which are very different operating conditions I'm sure but this feels like a noise caused by mechanical issues rather than electrical to me.


 

 Can you get it tested on a Sencore TC28 for grid leakage?
  Try heating up the pins gently with a soldering iron.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> What type of plates & getter does the clear glass Brimar have?
> 
> 
> David what type getter does your Brimar black glass have?


 

 I don't know.  I sold the pair!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Can you get it tested on a Sencore TC28 for grid leakage?
> Try heating up the pins gently with a soldering iron.


 

 I don't know anybody with that kind of tube tester I'm afraid.  I'd be willing to try the soldering if somebody could give me a few more details and where to apply heat and for how long, but it doesn't sound like a short to me to be honest.  No popping, just a really steady moaning sound like a tone generator would make.


----------



## rosgr63

An RCA 6F8G I just got does exactly the same in one amp in the driver position.
   
  In another amp used as an output tube it sounds very low compared to the other channel.
   
  My tube doctor takes out the solder with a pump and refills the pins with fresh solder.
  A wonderful trick.
   
   
   
  Come on David please take photos of the tubes you buy.
  We are serious addicts here you know!


----------



## dminches

I may have another pair so I can photography those.


----------



## dminches

Actually, I did photograph them for sale.  Here they are:


----------



## Xcalibur255

A glimmer of hope:  I checked in on it just now and the noise has subsided by around 85% I'd say and it's usable to listen to music at this level.  My tapping must've shifted something just enough because it wouldn't settle down last night regardless of what I did.  I'm sure it is just a case of microphony now, however it was caused.  Each click on the stepped attenuator transmits a clear "ting" through the left channel, so the tube has become susceptible to vibration is all.  My typing on this keyboard can be heard too if I pause the music playback.  As long as the nasty hum settles down with warm up that is better than nothing, so I'm partially relieved.
   
  Musically it sounds just like the other one, so nothing amiss there.


----------



## dminches

I have a TS BGRP in my preamp that pings when it is warming up.  After a while it goes away.  Even at low volumes I can't hear it.  I only hear it when the sound is off and it is warming up.  I assume that is microphonics too?


----------



## john57

The pinging noise is when metal parts in the tube expands when heating up and should stop when the tube is completely hot. It is just a bit different from microphonics which is caused by mechanical vibrations outside of the tube.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Guys, are these any good and which year they were made?


 

  
  Yes, they are good. It is my opinion, without further evidence, that your Brown base WGT Ray's are 1950's. I am only basing this on photos I've seen while shopping for my own Ray's. And we ALL know there always seems to be exceptions to rule-of-thumbs in tubes.
   
  It could very well be coincidence, but I've only seen that color printing on Brown base WGT Ray's in the '50's. But I have seen Black labels on the '40's & '50's Brown bases. What is the date code on the Brown base? It begins with the code for Ray's 280. Your pix looks so good, will return and post my own Ray's after lunch... and tea! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
   
  Added: Raytheon 6SN7W 1949


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Come on David please take photos of the tubes you buy.
> We are serious addicts here you know!


 

 My day was slow to start. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That is, until I came across this wonderful reply.


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I'll try re-seating the power tubes next.  The second round plate is silent and is what I generated my listening impressions from.  I tapped the noisy one a bit this morning and put it back in the amp.  This time I had the headphones on when I started it up.  It is silent for about 8 seconds then the moaning gradually appears until it is a steady loud drone.  I can hear disturbances in the sound when the tube pings from parts expanding with heat so something must have shifted inside it the last time it was used.  I'm going to leave it on for an extended period and see if being steady warm does any good.  They were both trouble free when I used them in the Woo, which are very different operating conditions I'm sure but this feels like a noise caused by mechanical issues rather than electrical to me.
> 
> edit:  if I tap my desk it upsets the tube with additional bursts of noise.  I think one of the metal retainer tabs must've shifted and is no longer holding the mica against the glass firmly letting the tube be sensitive to vibration.  In this state the soft vibration from the transformers and also from my PC traveling through the desk must be causing the steady hum.  That's my current guess anyway.  I may need to plug the Woo back into something and try them in that, that will tell me if something changed in the tube or not, but I remember giving both of these the "tap test" (against the amp chassis, not the glass) when I first used them and neither one reacted so they originally were not microphonic.


 

 I have a bunch of 6F8s round plate that cant be used for noise some are made by NU and some TS. Some howl like yours and some have static maybe round plate
  tubes are inherently noisy. I know they are older also a 27 is a round plate tube that sounds really good but these tend to be noisy especially the mesh plate globe
  that sounds best.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks SO, it's nice to have a good sense of humor!
   
  After all David is a tube addict, my bad to think for a moment he wasn't.
   
  I can live with a microphonic tube, but not with a noisy one.
  Some amps are more microphonic than others SP amps are an example.
   
*ADDITIONAL*
  Glenn, I agree too.
  A couple of my NU 6F8G RP's are very noisy when used as drivers but quiet when used as output tubes.
   
  I can hear the elements moving in some of my 300B's as they warm up.


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Thanks SO, it's nice to have a good sense of humor!
> 
> After all David is a tube addict, my bad to think for a moment he wasn't.
> 
> ...


 

 It is according to what stage the tube in a amp is being used on how much microphonics a microphonic tube will have. If it is in a high gain stage it may be bad
  and if the same tube being used as a cathode follower it might not show up at all.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I have a TS BGRP in my preamp that pings when it is warming up.  After a while it goes away.  Even at low volumes I can't hear it.  I only hear it when the sound is off and it is warming up.  I assume that is microphonics too?


 
  As others noted, the pinging is pretty normal.  Both of mine do it, as do a lot of my other tubes.  I have some 6FD7 for the Woo that ping like crazy, both warming up and down, but the noise never transfers into the headphones.  I can hear the 5998 pinging through the headphones when they cool down, but not in the room with the phones off my head.  So it seems to vary.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> I have a bunch of 6F8s round plate that cant be used for noise some are made by NU and some TS. Some howl like yours and some have static maybe round plate
> tubes are inherently noisy. I know they are older also a 27 is a round plate tube that sounds really good but these tend to be noisy especially the mesh plate globe
> that sounds best.


 

 The thought crossed my mind that maybe the noisy section of my tube was, by coincidence, the triode that was operating as the output section in the WA6 and thus the issue was never revealed until now.  But the mu is 20 either way so I figured the noise would probably be there regardless.  I think it's just bad luck, either something shifted the last time they cooled down or when I took them out of the box this time.


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The thought crossed my mind that maybe the noisy section of my tube was, by coincidence, the triode that was operating as the output section in the WA6 and thus the issue was never revealed until now.  But the mu is 20 either way so I figured the noise would probably be there regardless.  I think it's just bad luck, either something shifted the last time they cooled down or when I took them out of the box this time.


 


 Even though the tube has a mu of 20 the gain can be changed by the cathode resistor vrs the plate resistor.
  If that section of the tube was being used as the output stage it very well may not have shown up in the WA-6.
  What side is giving you the problem left or right in the OTL amp???  Just trying to figure the side that was used as the output in the Woo
  As far as microphonic tubes go some of the tubes that have the worst microphonics sound the best. Maybe they put a little reverb into the music.


----------



## Blackmore

I got my tube today, its the same as the one on the left without VT 231 print on base, does it mean its differ from the one on the right? From which production years are these?
   
   As for the sound, I really like it, its a very good one, have richer tone than the last Fivre's I got, very organic and easy going, while keeping all things we call high end, another top player
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> I just missed this pair, but bought a single one from the same seller, same tube, any thoughts?


----------



## Silent One

_Those are beautiful..._


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> Even though the tube has a mu of 20 the gain can be changed by the cathode resistor vrs the plate resistor.
> If that section of the tube was being used as the output stage it very well may not have shown up in the WA-6.
> What side is giving you the problem left or right in the OTL amp???  Just trying to figure the side that was used as the output in the Woo
> As far as microphonic tubes go some of the tubes that have the worst microphonics sound the best. Maybe they put a little reverb into the music.


 

 The left side is the problematic channel.  It has been on for around 6 hours now and has become silent the last time I checked in on it so it will settle down it seems.  If it were a short the hum would not go away right?  I can live with this actually, so long as they'll quiet down.  If it were any other pair of tubes I wouldn't have been upset, but it had to be these.  I had actually been contemplating selling them to raise money for my project, but with this event I can't in good conscience do that anymore.  Noisy or not they're mine for good.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The left side is the problematic channel.  It has been on for around 6 hours now and has become silent the last time I checked in on it so it will settle down it seems.  If it were a short the hum would not go away right?  I can live with this actually, so long as they'll quiet down.  If it were any other pair of tubes I wouldn't have been upset, but it had to be these. * I had actually been contemplating selling them to raise money for my project*, but with this event I can't in good conscience do that anymore.  Noisy or not they're mine for good.


 
   
   





 Maybe I should stop reading this thread. Difficult for me to read and learn of other's activities inside their listening rooms, while my own remains silent. That said, your post just gave me an idea, Xcalibur255! One that I hadn't thought of before. 
   
  I'm sitting here trying to find ways to finance my up and coming 6AS7 based OTL amp... and then your post came. I could sell my TS-BGRP's to help finance my own project. But, would I want to? Is there a strong chance I won't miss them by getting the new amp? After all, if I sell 'em then I won't have one on hand to use in the new amp.
   
  But then, not selling them and I won't have the dilemma of what 6SN7 to use in the new amp anyway! Could I find satisfaction using a Raytheon 6SN7W, RCA 6SN7GT Grey Glass; GE 6SN7GTA with the new OTL amp? 




   
  If not, then my Woo is at risk of being sent down-the-street! But if the tube scenario works, I can have both. Perhaps, you and others can help me get sleep this weekend.


----------



## Xcalibur255

My opinion is this if it helps:  the more transparent the amp circuit, the more important the innate quality of the tubes becomes.  I think you should hold onto your tung sols, as they'll sound amazing in the amp.  They certainly do in mine.  I can give you some impressions on how they sound with the 6AS7G if you give me some time, since that would be more relevant than the 5998 based impressions I have now.  Their 3D presentation is hard to step away from once you've enjoyed it, since you've already taken the hard step of buying them in the first place you might as well enjoy them.  I came to realize that selling something I don't regret buying to finance something else doesn't really feel like the best way to go.  Better to just save the funds the old fashioned way and enjoy the moment when it arrives.


----------



## kiertijai

I think these Raytheon's are the same as Blackmore's
  My brain said I didn't need these but my fingers kept typing and entered, saying
  that those were of good priced : so they will come to me next week


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The left side is the problematic channel.  It has been on for around 6 hours now and has become silent the last time I checked in on it so it will settle down it seems.  If it were a short the hum would not go away right?  I can live with this actually, so long as they'll quiet down.  If it were any other pair of tubes I wouldn't have been upset, but it had to be these.  I had actually been contemplating selling them to raise money for my project, but with this event I can't in good conscience do that anymore.  Noisy or not they're mine for good.


 

 I am pretty sure what is the left side triode was used as the output triode with the adapter in the WA-6. This would have less gain. maybe if you keep using it it will go away.
  At least you have one good one that will probably last forever at 8ma plate current.
       A intermittent short can come and go.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I think these Raytheon's are the same as Blackmore's
> My brain said I didn't need these but my fingers kept typing and entered, saying
> that those were of good priced : so they will come to me next week


 

 They are a different type of tube I believe.  The VT-231 has additional support rods and structure, and the non military version was printed using the same orange color for its logo.  These are a later version I think.  I've seen that wire getter attached to one plate somewhere before, on a different brand tube, but I can't remember where.
   
  edit:  duh. I have a tube exactly like that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  It is re-branded Crosley but I believe they are made by RCA.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> I am pretty sure what is the left side triode was used as the output triode with the adapter in the WA-6. This would have less gain. maybe if you keep using it it will go away.
> At least you have one good one that will probably last forever at 8ma plate current.
> A intermittent short can come and go.


 

 Good to know about shorts.  It's quiet right now, provided no vibrations reach it.  Every time I set my water glass on the desk I can hear a ping through the left earcup on the AKGs, but so far nothing has provoked it to start humming again so it would seem that operating temperature expands the components enough to put a suave on the problem.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I think these Raytheon's are the same as Blackmore's
> My brain said I didn't need these but my fingers kept typing and entered, saying
> that those were of good priced : so they will come to me next week


 

 I'm trying hard to get the EIC right - January, 1946 is my guess!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> My opinion is this if it helps:  the more transparent the amp circuit, the more important the innate quality of the tubes becomes.  I think you should hold onto your tung sols, as they'll sound amazing in the amp.  They certainly do in mine.  I can give you some impressions on how they sound with the 6AS7G if you give me some time, since that would be more relevant than the 5998 based impressions I have now.  Their 3D presentation is hard to step away from once you've enjoyed it, since you've already taken the hard step of buying them in the first place you might as well enjoy them.  I came to realize that selling something I don't regret buying to finance something else doesn't really feel like the best way to go.  Better to just save the funds the old fashioned way and enjoy the moment when it arrives.


 

 Thanks for weighing-in...


----------



## kiertijai

*You are looking at a nice strong, matched quad of used short base short glass Raytheon USA 6SN7GTB's with flat black plates and D shaped side getters. All pins are tight and straight, there are no cracks or chips. All have angled rectangular plates. All are identical Raytheon manufactured tubes. The printing is very good and they are from batches E24, E24, 280 604 and 280 604. They measure new and well matched between plates and each other on an AVO 163 tester for current draw and mutual conductance.  Tube 1 - 9.4/2.9 & 9.6/2.9. Tube 2 - 10.0/3.0 & 9.6/2.9. Tube 3 - 9.6/2.9 & 9.0/2.9. Tube 4 - 9.2/2.9 & 9.8/2.9. Nominal new measure is 9.0/2.9. *
*    *May be mine are not VT231  : no support rod,  I will find out about the sound quality next week and will compare with the brown base 6sn7wgt


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Thanks for weighing-in...


 

 I get the feeling you would've preferred I had not?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I get the feeling you would've preferred I had not?


 







 ? Though, I used your quote in my reply for a broadcast appeal, I was specifically looking for you to weigh-in with your thoughts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Because we've touched some things for some time, I knew you'd be able to connect with my thoughts. A new concern regarding the OTL amp is the Denon D7000's @ 25ohm - they're my only "Go-to" headphones. 
   
  I'm trying to encourage Glenn to give a model name to the 6AS7 based OTL amp. So, we could better sling it around during conversations for reference. _ _


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Maybe I should stop reading this thread. Difficult for me to read and learn of other's activities inside their listening rooms, while my own remains silent. That said, your post just gave me an idea, Xcalibur255! One that I hadn't thought of before.
> 
> I'm sitting here trying to find ways to finance my up and coming 6AS7 based OTL amp... and then your post came. I could sell my TS-BGRP's to help finance my own project. But, would I want to? Is there a strong chance I won't miss them by getting the new amp? After all, if I sell 'em then I won't have one on hand to use in the new amp.
> 
> ...


 


  SO I have the same opinion as Xcalibur.
  I would not sell a hard to get vintage pair of tubes to finance a new project.
  I would sell modern gear though like an amp,dac, but never vintage tubes.
  Perhaps rescheduling ones priorities and saving funds may be a better solution.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> SO I have the same opinion as Xcalibur.
> I would not sell a hard to get vintage pair of tubes to finance a new project.
> I would sell modern gear though like an amp,dac, but never vintage tubes.
> Perhaps rescheduling ones priorities and saving funds may be a better solution.


 

 Money is overrated! Ok, maybe not. But, I do enjoy having qualified support... and that counts for something!




   
  What's more, not only was my TS-BGRP's hard to come by (finding the money and finding the tubes were two entirely different challenges), I had to do battle and endure a month and a half of sheer ugliness before the beauty emerged with those tubes. The appreciation factor is OFF the charts now!


----------



## kiertijai

Are these Raytheon similar to the Raytheon 6sn7wgt?
  Can they be used with Balancing Act ?  probably not 12.6 filament voltage?

*Raytheon 2C50 Dual Triode* audio tubes. These are similar in specs to a 6SN7 however *they have a 12.6 volt filament*. They do have the same pinout as 6SN7. I believe these were made for the military as they are very rugged looking tubes in the style of the Bendix Redbank tubes


----------



## rosgr63

Kiertijai if ALL other properties are the same and only the filament voltage is different you could try them on a 6SN7 circuit.
   
  I would never try them on the BA though, it's too expensive for experiments.


----------



## dBel84

do not run 12.6 v tubes in an amp that only has 6.3v filament winding. The 12SN7 is the 12v version of the 6SN7, it is identical in all other respects. My amp has the option to switch between heater voltage and there is little over all difference between 6SN7 vs 12SN7 , mostly similar changes like listening to various types of 6SN7..dB
   
  edit - the only datasheet i can find links to 7C5 and 6V6 ?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





silent one said:


> ? Though, I used your quote in my reply for a broadcast appeal, I was specifically looking for you to weigh-in with your thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry.  Late night listening under stress puts me in an odd state of mind sometimes. 
   
  The 5998 will actually lower the amp's output impedance.  This is part of why the bass is so tight with that tube.  I think the TungSol/Chatham 6AS7 might have tight enough bass into 25 ohms, but the RCA tubes would probably sound tubby.  I think they do at 62 ohms even.  As to whether or not you'd like how the 5998 tube itself sounds overall, it's hard to tell.  It actually has a sweeter and more musical tone when run in the circuit as a 6AS7.  The bad thing about the 5998 is they getting really expensive and rare now.  If you decide you want to try some in the future I have a pair I'll give you for free if you'd like.  These were from the vacuumtubes.net scandal so to speak and I suspect they have many hours on them, but they still sound good.  Not quite as tight as my NOS pair but it would give you a good idea about the tube.  I have two pairs like this actually, and every time I see them in the tube drawer I'm reminded of the bath I took on them.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Sorry.  Late night listening under stress puts me in an odd state of mind sometimes.
> 
> The 5998 will actually lower the amp's output impedance.  This is part of why the bass is so tight with that tube.  I think the TungSol/Chatham 6AS7 might have tight enough bass into 25 ohms, but the RCA tubes would probably sound tubby.  I think they do at 62 ohms even.  As to whether or not you'd like how the 5998 tube itself sounds overall, it's hard to tell.  It actually has a sweeter and more musical tone when run in the circuit as a 6AS7.  The bad thing about the 5998 is they getting really expensive and rare now.  If you decide you want to try some in the future I have a pair I'll give you for free if you'd like.  These were from the vacuumtubes.net scandal so to speak and I suspect they have many hours on them, but they still sound good.  Not quite as tight as my NOS pair but it would give you a good idea about the tube.  I have two pairs like this actually, and every time I see them in the tube drawer I'm reminded of the bath I took on them.


 

 Thanks, Xcalibur255! The 5998's would be of tremendous help getting me down the street with my initial sessions. However, I wish you were wrong about the 5998's status - a quick look shows that they are indeed, getting more expensive and rare.
   
  Tried to price some moments ago - saw a lot of "Tung-Sol Chatham 5998 For sale: *Sold.*" Besides the Western Electric 421A, what's the next premier 6AS7 or 5998 tube to check? If the NOS pair you have are really a difference maker over used, I'll just have to pull the trigger (one-time, hopefully) and get myself a pair.
   
  How does your AKG 701's pair with the amp? This summer, I may have to pick up a pre-owned pair of Senn, AKG, or Beyer 300ohm-600ohm cans. 
   
  5998 - Is that the depth of this new found rabbit hole in Meters?


----------



## Xcalibur255

K701 pairs well with the amp.  It delivers the current the phones want to really do their thing.  It really shows in the bass drive.  They're really quite demanding of an amp and many owners don't know how much so.
   
  Tung Sol was the only maker of the 5998, period.  You'll see some other brands, like Chatham or IBM but every one of them was made by Tung Sol.  They're typically going for about $200 a pair on eBay, though some sellers offer them cheaper than that.  The WE421A is also made by Tung Sol, though to very slightly different specifications.  Not worth the premium.  The consensus on best 6AS7 tube seems to be the British GEC version, even more rare and expensive than 5998s are.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Also not worth it in my honest opinion.  The Chatham 6AS7 are a fine choice and can be scored pretty cheap with some patience.  There is nothing wrong with the RCAs either, especially if you like a romantic sound, but I think the Chathams do better all around.
   
  I'll give you the whole story on my 5998 tubes some other time.  They may have lots of life left in them, but I don't know.  I do know they were sold as NOS and there are obvious signs they aren't, and since I have some that really are strong I feel my bases are covered.
   
  Early impression of the round plate 6SN7s with the Chatham 6AS7 tubes is that I feel the Sylvania chrome dome has better synergy with these power tubes.  The round plates still show their traditional strong suite in really great imaging and coherence, but they can be sibilant at times and don't feel as nicely balanced as the Sylvanias.  I don't ever remember having any sibilance issues with the Chatham Sylvania pairing.  The round plates are the better pairing for the 5998 though, by a fair margin.  Their presentation is truly holographic, where as the Sylvania feels much more two dimensional and is too zingy and edgy sounding with some material.  The 5998/Sylvania pairing produces bass that must be heard to be believed though.
   
  I have a hunch the Hitachi might work really well with the 5998, so that is coming next.


----------



## Silent One

Can the 5998/TS-BGRP pairing sound somewhat tubey and not so solid-state? The holographic description sounds delightful!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Can the 5998/TS-BGRP pairing sound somewhat tubey and not so solid-state? The holographic description sounds delightful!


 

 With the new setting the 5998 doesn't sound tubey at all.  The Tung Sols took the excessive edge off the sound but it is still not warm IMO.  Detail is to die for though.    The amp normally does not have this feature, it is something I dreamed up and Glenn made reality, but it doesn't add much cost to the amp so I'm sure you can ask for it if you wanted it.
   
  One warning though:  the volume pot that came with my amp originally wasn't very linear and the high gain of the 5998 made for very little usable travel on the pot.  I had my pot swapped out for a stepped unit with more accurate resistance for better volume control.  It was a cheapie Chinese made unit, but it works well.  Physically it feels a little crude but it performs its function well.


----------



## Silent One

ITT 6SN7GTB - Hitachi unmasked?


----------



## kiertijai

I also have a pair of these ITT 6SN7GTB, they sound very nice.  I also thought they were the same
  as Hitachi black plate.
  I am using them  and the Toshiba 6SN7GTB's, 6SL7GT with my newly acquired Telefunken AD1 pair (for power
  tubes) in the Balancing Act with great result.  As the drivers open up the treble and sweet rich mid of the AD1 very well
.


----------



## Silent One

To my surprise, they sound very nice indeed. I almost dismissed them on looks alone before having a listen.


----------



## kchew

SIlent One, what a coincidence. I bought a quad of the same ITT-branded Hitachi GTBs a few days back. They were going for a really good price on fleabay, and before I knew it I had already clicked on the "Buy it now" button. I can't wait to try them out after hearing all the praise from you guys.

  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> What type of plates & getter does the clear glass Brimar have?


 


 Sorry for the late reply, the clear glass Brimar's have grey plates with a flattened-oval cross section, same as all the Brimars I have. Annoyingly, one has an 'O' getter and the other has a rectangular getter. They sound the same though, so it's no biggie to me. The black glass CV1988 has the same plates and 'O' getters, but they have a radiator fin on one of the posts above the mica.
   
  Clear glass CV1988 KB/FB (Footscray):
   

   
  Black glass CV1988 KB/FE (Oldsway):
   

   
  Sonically, the black glass variant has slightly bloated bass and a smaller soundstage as compared to the clear glass variant. But the clear glass variant's upper midrange is not as sweet as the black glass. I've no idea how many hours the clear glass CV1988s have on them though, while I've put about 200+ hours on the black glass. I was not impressed with the Brimar CV1988 with the HD800, but man do they do great things with the LCD-2r2.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks KChew, I have similar variants in clear and dark glass.
  I prefer the dark glass brown base with the coolers on top.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I finally got a tall bottle with chrome top.  Seller said it's a 6SN7GTA.  Initial impression is that it sounded like my Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7GT.  
  
  Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Does anyone like the sound of Sylvania tall bottle ?


----------



## Audio-Omega

That tall bottle has occasional hissing in the left channel.


----------



## Skylab

nvm


----------



## bixby

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> K701 pairs well with the amp.  It delivers the current the phones want to really do their thing.  It really shows in the bass drive.  They're really quite demanding of an amp and many owners don't know how much so.
> 
> Tung Sol was the only maker of the 5998, period.  You'll see some other brands, like Chatham or IBM but every one of them was made by Tung Sol.  They're typically going for about $200 a pair on eBay, though some sellers offer them cheaper than that.  The WE421A is also made by Tung Sol, though to very slightly different specifications.  Not worth the premium.  The consensus on best 6AS7 tube seems to be the British GEC version, even more rare and expensive than 5998s are.
> 
> ...


 

 I agree with your impressions.  My Chatham 6as7 amd Chatham 5998 sound pretty nice with my Sylvania Chrome dome GTA and red label GTB.  Need some more time to really sort out my preference.  The Channel Master (Hitachi rebrand?) sound pretty nice as well with just some roll off in the upper end.  While I have heard the round plates with some 6080s and the 5998, I felt it was a bit too forward and warm for me in my amp.  May have to try one again though.
   
  I'll see if I can roll the 5998 in with the Channel Master in the next few days to get more of an impression.


----------



## rosgr63

Does anybody know anything about INVICTUS?


----------



## Skylab

Wow, I've never heard of that brand.  Those are clearly Sylvania tubes though.  Stavros where did those come from?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob,
  They are from Brazil, but not with me yet still talking to the seller.


----------



## Skylab

Do you agree they are Sylvanias?


----------



## rosgr63

Yes Rob GTB type.
  I wonder if Sylvania had a factory or licensee in Brazil.
   
  I know RCA did, but not sure about Sylvania.


----------



## dminches

What gives it away that they are sylvanias?  Chrome top and the plates?


----------



## Skylab

Those plates are unmistakably Sylvania.


----------



## Blackmore

Looks like Sylvania to me, but here is a nice article, pretty sure have something to do with it, cos the first TV manufacturing in Brasil was started by Invictus
http://www.earlytelevision.org/brazil_tv_history.html


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the article Blackmore.
   
  Were these tubes produced in Brazil or made in the US for Invictus?
   
*Quote*
  In early 1952 they (INVICTUS) released their first TV set on the market, a 17 inch screen model, which had 50% of parts and components made in Brazil.
*Unquote*


----------



## Blackmore

I am not sure, but I think it was easier for Invictus just to buy tubes from US and use them in their TV manufacturing or else, even with 75% of own part production at the end, we still have 25% of parts that been made outside of Brasil, so, maybe these were tubes?


----------



## Blackmore

Not in particular order:

 CV1988 Brimar, clear glass with print on it, brown base, O getter
   





   
  Fivre ( have several differ models, like them all )
   







   
   
  ECC33 Mullard, brown base, ( also have CV2821, which is military version of it )
   




   
   
  NU VT-231, dark grey & fully coated glass
   




   
   
   
  B65 Marconi? ( not sure ), metal base, grey coated glass
   
   




   
   
  I do have some others that belong in that list, but the rule are 5, so, the choice is made.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Blackmore here is your stimulation:
> 
> Your 5 favorite 6SN7's!


----------



## kiertijai

Those five are beautiful tubes.
  I have to check mine,  I think I may have the same set.
  Yes I do think that the last tube are Marconi B65 metal base


----------



## rosgr63

Can anybody decipher the ECC35 code 1347 A1 ?
   
  Nice choice Blackmore, top 10 to follow next.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> B65 Marconi? ( not sure ), metal base, grey coated glass


 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/975#post_7609875


----------



## dBel84

I had been avoiding using the coin base 6SN7's I had because of a perception ( my own ) that they were not the best examples of these tubes. ( high distortion with poor linearity because of the target use - late tube TVs )  I would be interested in others opinions as I think these are sounding really good. Better than my black plate tungsols and the short base philco. I will do some comparisons to the CV181 in due course but as tubes go, these are every bit as good as some of the glass jewelry I have..dB


----------



## Skylab

I have some Sylvania black plate coin base tubes which I think sound quite good. Typical late production Sylvania and can be quite a good value.


----------



## dBel84

Thanks Rob, I have a single sylvania too, the ones I rolled in were RCA. They have this crazy construction with long internal wiring so that the plates sit near the top of the (longer than standard)  glass tube with a side flash..dB


----------



## Oskari

They do look "special".


----------



## dminches

RCA GTBs? I recently purchased a quad of those.


----------



## Oskari

↑RCA ↓GE ⇊Sylvania


----------



## john57

I wonder what is the point of raising the whole tube on "stands" inside the bottle?


----------



## dminches

Maybe something to do with heat dissipation?


----------



## Xcalibur255

But we have short bottle GTB tubes too and their plate dissipation rating is going to be the same, so it would be solving a problem that already wasn't one.  My guess would be accommodating machinery limitations or tolerances from switching over to partially automated assembly.
   
  Those RCAs would be worth having just for their novel look.  They tend to go cheap too.
   
  In the case of the Sylvania it might just be a trick of the eye too.  Picture a normal full height black plastic base on the tube and the glass suddenly appears to be a normal medium envelope height.


----------



## Skylab

I used to think the coin-based tubes were really dorky looking, but for whatever reason now I think they are very cool looking.


----------



## kiertijai

I have one pair of RCA Brasilia  from the seller in South America (I can't remember which country)
  They sound quite good with wide soundstage.  What are they actually?


----------



## rosgr63

They are the Brazilian made RCA 6SN7M.
   
  I don't have any but I have read they are not bad.


----------



## Oskari

Now that _is_ special. According to http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1468990#p1468990 there is a 6FQ7A/6CG7 hidden in there.


----------



## rosgr63

If that's the case, you can get some nice sounding 6FQ7/6CG7 tubes for a lot less.
   
  SACD Lover recommends the 6FQ7/6CG7 tubes.
  They are 6SN7's in a miniature bottle.
   
  My preference is more for the 6SN7, but that's just me, others may well prefer the 6FQ7/6CG7 tubes.


----------



## kiertijai

I think we may need the adapter for the 6CG7/6GU7 to 6SN7 and that is probably more expensive than the adapter
  of the 6F8G's to 6SN7's.  I saw one pair of 6CG7/6GU7 to 6SN7 adapter in ayumitubes.com cost around 39.9$ 
  Craig also recommended the 6C8G's  which are between the 6SN7's and 6SL7's  and use the same adapter as the 6F8G's
  which are cheaper.  The price of 6C8G's  are not much higher than the 6CG7's/6GU7's.   The price of 6C8G's pair is around
  30+$.    I am listening to a National Union 6C8G with the BA and found that it drives the LCD3 quite well, need more burnin
  to compare to other 6SN7's


----------



## Skylab

The funny thing is I am in the process of going the other way. Dminches and I both own the same DAC that uses 6CG7's in the output stage. He had adapters made to go from the 6CG7 to a 6SN7 are thought it improved the sound, so I am in the process of doing the same.


----------



## dBel84

The clear top RCA 6FQ7 have been a long time favourite of mine. Easily comparable to the best examples of the 6SN7..dB


----------



## Skylab

That's actually what's in my DAC at the moment. Will be interesting to hear how they stack up to some of my better 6SN7's.


----------



## dBel84

when do you get your adapters  , looking forward to this outcome. 
   
  and speaking of adapters - anyone handy with a dremel and soldering iron - about $20 for a pair. I can post details if there is interest in making adapters. 
   
  ..dB


----------



## Skylab

The adapters are here, but I have to have the top plate modded to accommodate the height of the 6SN7 + adapter. The tubes will stick out holes to be punched in the top plate. DMinches has already done this, maybe he will post a pic of his


----------



## rosgr63

Glenn has made mine, top notch work.


----------



## dminches

Here is my almost finished work:


----------



## john57

Great dminches!
   
   You can use use plastic tubing cut a slit and put is around the edges of the hole. I could use heat shrink tubing since it could grab the edges better when heated but not sure how neat it is going to be.


----------



## dminches

I actually used some metal grommets which I installed after I took that picture.


----------



## rosgr63

David are these RCA grey glass?
   
  Nice job, for a touch up I suggest to apply some paint around the cut edge with a small brush.


----------



## dminches

Yes, Stavros, they are RCA grey glass.  Right now I am using a pair of Ratheon VT231s.


----------



## rosgr63

Which do you prefer?


----------



## Blackmore

If I use 6F8G > 6SN7 adapter, is it possible to use 6F8G tube in my Cary amp?


----------



## rosgr63

The 6F8G+adapter is equivalent to the 6SN7.
  The 6CG7/6FQ7+adapter is equivalent to the 6SN7.


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks rosgr63, are there any European versions of these?
  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The 6F8G+adapter is equivalent to the 6SN7.
> The 6CG7/6FQ7+adapter is equivalent to the 6SN7.


----------



## rosgr63

Universal, Glenn makes top quality ones at a good price.


----------



## Blackmore

What I ment is if any European based tube manufacture made any of them. I found GEC BL63 where according to the seller is the direct replacement of 6F8G, but I doubting.
  
  THX
  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Universal, Glenn makes top quality ones at a good price.


----------



## rosgr63

BL63 draw higher current they are NOT equivalent to 6F8G.
  Oskari and others have mentioned that before.


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks, to Oskari as well

  
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> BL63 draw higher current they are NOT equivalent to 6F8G.
> Oskari and others have mentioned that before.


----------



## Oskari

That was 60 pages ago in this thread, from page 67 on. Don't you remember? You were there as well.


----------



## Blackmore

Yes, indeed, just checked pages 67-71 and all is there, pff, I am getting old...

  
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> That was 60 pages ago in this thread, from page 67 on. Don't you remember? You were there as well.


----------



## rosgr63

You are not getting old, but destructed by these beautiful BL63 tubes!


----------



## Audio-Omega

This vintage 6SN7GTA sounds very similar my 1949 Sylvania.  I like its soft treble.
  It has black plates with 444 printed on the base.


----------



## rosgr63

Are you sure it's GTA?
  The plates look like GTB.
   
  Nice tube I like the Sylvania 6SN7GTA but mine have the T-Plates.


----------



## Audio-Omega

GTA is printed on the top.  The plates are shiny but they aren't as black as my other one.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I could never find any love for the t-plate style GTA tube.  To my ears it's not nearly as good as the chrome dome GTs even though it looks extremely similar.  The resolution and transparency just isn't there.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is there a sound difference between Brimar CV1988 black and brown base ?


----------



## rosgr63

Clear Glass or Smoked?
  What's the getter like?


----------



## Audio-Omega

See the following ebay items.  
   
  290677763087
  290677765677


----------



## rosgr63

They are both very nice.


----------



## Kpsingh0

Hi
  just got my grant fedility b-283 mkii. I want to upgrade the tubes and not spend too much. Im thinking something like the 6sn7gt chromedome. Or 6f8g tube. Which would yeild better results. Or should i save up for something like the threasures.


----------



## Skylab

Well the 6F8G will require you to buy adapters, so if you want to save some money, buy some Sylvania or RCA 6SN7GTBs first and start there.


----------



## Kpsingh0

I guess my concern is will gtb be a big enough upgrade? Or better yet will some 6f8g be a big upgrade from the gtb?


----------



## rosgr63

I agree with Skylab you can get some very nice GTB's for little money.
  Try the Channel Master, Hitachi or ITT rebranded GTB's.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I have a Brimar CV1988 with brown base, it's nice sounding, music is fast and tight.  However I prefer the warmer sounding vintage Sylvanias.


----------



## Kpsingh0

Ok found two i am interested in. Donno why. They just callin me. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Tung-Sol-vintage-USA-6SN7GTB-tall-bottle-matching-pair-6SN7-6SN7GTB-/220966127846?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item33729b88e6#ht_500wt_922

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-2-6SN7GTB-Channel-Master-Chrome-Top-Vacuum-Tubes-Tested-/260932329358?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3cc0c75f8e#ht_500wt_689

Is there a signifant diffrence in gtb to gt seem they are not too much more.


----------



## Skylab

Those Tung Sols were very nice - hope its you that bought them!


----------



## Kpsingh0

Oh dang. Went to go wash the car and now they r gone. I guess ill keep looking.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The Tung Sols would've been a good score.  That seller always puts up good stuff.


----------



## Kpsingh0

What you boys think of these? Hopefully they wont get sold. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-Sylvania-6SN7-GTB-Tubes-Black-Plates-Test-Strong-1959-2-/260963495648?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3cc2a2eee0#ht_500wt_689


----------



## Xcalibur255

It's a good price.  I think they'd make a good first pair for trying out the 6SN7.


----------



## Kpsingh0

Thanks. Pulled the trigger.


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tubes, happy listening!
  I hope the tube addiction has not started.......


----------



## Audio-Omega

Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB
   
  It's smooth sounding just like my vintage Sylvanias.  Music is a bit more forward.  The sound is on the softer side compared to Brimar CV1988 smoked glass with brown base.


----------



## Kpsingh0

Got my tubes. They sound good. I wouldnt say im addicted because i spent hours tring to listen for diffrences and its kinda stressfulll. But i think i will actually get a tube amp eventually. Any recommenation for a cheap one.


----------



## Mak333

Brent Jessee Recording just got a bunch in... their webpage isn't working at the moment (3/8/12).
www.audiotubes.com


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kpsingh0 said:


> Got my tubes. They sound good. I wouldnt say im addicted because i spent hours tring to listen for diffrences and its kinda stressfulll. But i think i will actually get a tube amp eventually. Any recommenation for a cheap one.


 


  Well I never spend too long listening for diferences, but I do like tubes and music.
  If you wanted value for money and a nice sounding amp I would get in touch with Glenn (2359glenn).


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I scored last night a pair of Sylvania 6F8G tubes with balck glass and round plates for $40 plus shipping. The construction looks very similar to the Tungsol BGRP 6F8G tubes. Will see how they soud when they get here.


 

 Following up - how do the Sylvania 6F8G BGRP's sound?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Blackmore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> NU VT-231, dark grey & fully coated glass


 

  
  Still lovin' this acquisition? I want one! May I ask (politely), where you sourced? Did I mention I want one?!


----------



## Audio-Omega

What's the sound signature of those NU tubes ?


----------



## Blackmore

[size=10pt]I would never know about existence of this NU Grey coated tube if not this thread, thanks a lot![/size]
   
  [size=10pt]Bought locally, not special place  or source, directly after I find out about it, so, you can say it's very special coincidence. This particular pair was missed by me and I got mad, really, so, sent directly an e-mail to the seller and he wrote that he have one left and I said, MY!!![/size]
   
  [size=10pt]As for the sound, you know, I need to try them with my K1000 to make some comparison say vs. Fivre or Brimar, cos through speakers it's just as fantastic as the others, you just don't listen to the tube, but to the music, that's the beauty of it, when the tube is good, it's just good, period. Also, because I don’t have much listening time I enjoy the music only, do not compare much lately, but as I said, will try to do so during weekend…[/size]


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Following up - how do the Sylvania 6F8G BGRP's sound?


 


 I have not tried them yet. I need to clean them. I'll try to get tothem over the weekend.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Still lovin' this acquisition? I want one! May I ask (politely), where you sourced? Did I mention I want one?!


 


  Me too!


----------



## Kpsingh0

rosgr63 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does Glenn have a site or is it a user on here. I can only find a eBay account and a thread thanking him.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is his profile, just send him a PM.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/u/158007/2359glenn


----------



## SixthFall

brand new. The new tubes are much smoother and detailed than the old ones.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





sixthfall said:


> brand new. The new tubes are much smoother and detailed than the old ones.


 


   
  What brand are those?


----------



## Skylab

They're Sophia Electrics. And I sure hope that picture was taken before you finished inserting the tubes fully in their sockets! They definitely should not be used as pictured.


----------



## SixthFall

Quote: 





skylab said:


> They're Sophia Electrics. And I sure hope that picture was taken before you finished inserting the tubes fully in their sockets! They definitely should not be used as pictured.


 
  Yeah, i inserted them fully  and they are TJ Full Music Tubes Grade A 6SN7's.


----------



## john57

> What old tubes are you talking about?


 
  Quote: 





sixthfall said:


> brand new. The new tubes are much smoother and detailed than the old ones.


----------



## SixthFall

Quote: 





john57 said:


>


 

 the stock ones. i will post a pic in a sec


----------



## SixthFall

Stock tubes. only markings are in chinese.


----------



## john57

The run of the mill Chinese tubes are just awful especially for my Little Dots amps. For that price the Russia Tung-Sol 6SN7 reissue is much better. I have no experience with the "premium" Chinese tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

I nearly got a heart attack, I thought they were MOV B65!


----------



## Skylab

sixthfall said:


> Yeah, i inserted them fully  and they are TJ Full Music Tubes Grade A 6SN7's.




Cool. The TJ Full music and the Sophia Electric are the same tube. I am not exactly sure who the actual manufacturer is.


----------



## rosgr63

Skylab I found a 6SN7 that has round plates and is made by GE not Tung-Sol.
  It has the makers code 188-5 which is the GE code.
  Never knew GE made round plates black glass.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Cool. The TJ Full music and the Sophia Electric are the same tube. I am not exactly sure who the actual manufacturer is.


 

 Is there some reason to believe that it isn't Tianjin Quanzhen Electron Tube Technology Co., Ltd. aka TJ Full music?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Skylab I found a 6SN7 that has round plates and is made by GE not Tung-Sol.
> It has the makers code 188-5 which is the GE code.
> Never knew GE made round plates black glass.


 

 I'm not sure who made that tube but you can't always trust those RETMA/EIA factory codes as telling the actual manufacturer. It could be a Tung-Sol tube even with the GE (Ken-Rad) code.
   
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/Tung-Sol+VT-231+1940s+JAN+CTL+6SN7GT+Round+Plates+Black+Glass+3+-+USA.jpg.html


----------



## rosgr63

Usually rebranded tubes have the makers code and the rebranded name.
  But I agree with Oskari you cannot trust the markings.
  I have RCA 6SN7 grey glass tubes re branded as Brimar!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Skylab I found a 6SN7 that has round plates and is made by GE not Tung-Sol.
> It has the makers code 188-5 which is the GE code.
> Never knew GE made round plates black glass.


 

 Once the war ended I think one could reasonably assume quite a few of these that Tung-Sol had manufactured got the re-brand treatment and were released into the open market.  I've seen TSRP rebranded as Lafeyette, Admiral, and others, plus the Tung-Sol manufacturer code isn't printed on these tubes when they are branded Tung-Sol so its easy for another code to make its way on there as part of a re-branding.


----------



## Skylab

oskari said:


> Is there some reason to believe that it isn't Tianjin Quanzhen Electron Tube Technology Co., Ltd. aka TJ Full music?




It may very well be...interesting that these first appeared only under the Sophia Electric brand, though. I don't think they are worth the money, myself, but to each their own.



oskari said:


> I'm not sure who made that tube but you can't always trust those RETMA/EIA factory codes as telling the actual manufacturer. It could be a Tung-Sol tube even with the GE (Ken-Rad) code.




I am inclined to agree, I would bet that is Tung Sol made. I have a Tung Sol 6SN7GT that has the TS EIA code but is unquestionably Sylvania.


----------



## SixthFall

skylab said:


> It may very well be...interesting that these first appeared only under the Sophia Electric brand, though. I don't think they are worth the money, myself, but to each their own.
> I am inclined to agree, I would bet that is Tung Sol made. I have a Tung Sol 6SN7GT that has the TS EIA code but is unquestionably Sylvania.




Yeah,I wouldent pay $200 for them dispite them being a nice soundimg tube. They came with the unit as I bougt it from a fellow headfiier.


----------



## Skylab

Agreed. They sound good, but IMO not better than your run of the mill NOS 6SN7GTB.


----------



## Blackmore

TJ is the manufacture and Sophia invested in their plant and now have the rights to sell on their own name. Sophia claimes to have the highest grade quality controle with tubes they sell, but the failure of their 300B's are pretty common, however their service, replacement etc, seems to be very good. In my Cary through K1000 their 6sn7 were not my liking, also 300B's not, especially for the money.

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Cool. The TJ Full music and the Sophia Electric are the same tube. I am not exactly sure who the actual manufacturer is.


----------



## Blackmore

Compared to FIVRE Black base, side getter NU sounds neutraler, having less midrange bloom and not such meatier low end, but this NU tube, possibly, is the most balanced I own. Have pushed this tube so hard and nothing nasty been detected, tried many gengres and all of them sounded great. On the other side I wouldnt call NU signature as neutral-neutral, cos there is definitely richness/warmth in there , but arent bloomy, more on the flat side, hmm, richness / warmth that on neutral or flat side, dont know if this is an good description, however the fact that this tube passed the K1000 test means a lot, at least to me.
   
  Maybe somebody  can jump in and share as well, would be really nice.

  
  Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> What's the sound signature of those NU tubes ?


----------



## rosgr63

Blackmore, thanks for the update.
  The side getter FIVFE are GTA type tubes which are not neutral.
  Are they early or late vintage?
  Do they have a sticker or is the logo printed on the glass?
  Did you compare them to the brown base FIVRE?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Compared to FIVRE Black base, side getter NU sounds neutraler, having less midrange bloom and not such meatier low end, but this NU tube, possibly, is the most balanced I own. Have pushed this tube so hard and nothing nasty been detected, tried many gengres and all of them sounded great. On the other side I wouldnt call NU signature as neutral-neutral, cos there is definitely richness/warmth in there , but arent bloomy, more on the flat side, hmm, richness / warmth that on neutral or flat side, dont know if this is an good description, however the fact that this tube passed the K1000 test means a lot, at least to me.
> 
> Maybe somebody  can jump in and share as well, would be really nice.


 


  That sounds pretty different from the black glass NU tubes, and also jives well with things I've been told about the grey glass version in the past.  IMO the tube that comes the closest to sounding truly neutral, in my amp and with my current configuration, is the Hytron 6SN7GT actually.  Over time I've realized that pretty much all tubes highlight one or more sections of the frequency spectrum, but no particular range ever jumps out at me when I listen to the Hytron.  Perhaps its combination with the 5998 is what achieves this, as I felt it was a little midrange dominant with the 6AS7 tubes in place.


----------



## Blackmore

These are 3 Fivre's I compared to NU. First two are the same tube.
   
  All Fivre's sharing the basic signature, which I really love and even there are some differences they do not change my impressions much.


----------



## Skylab

xcalibur255 said:


> That sounds pretty different from the black glass NU tubes, and also jives well with things I've been told about the grey glass version in the past.  IMO the tube that comes the closest to sounding truly neutral, in my amp and with my current configuration, is the Hytron 6SN7GT actually.  Over time I've realized that pretty much all tubes highlight one or more sections of the frequency spectrum, but no particular range ever jumps out at me when I listen to the Hytron.  Perhaps its combination with the 5998 is what achieves this, as I felt it was a little midrange dominant with the 6AS7 tubes in place.




I have long felt that the Hytron tall-bottle 6SN7GT was a truly excellent sounding tube.


----------



## Blackmore

Are we talking about JAN-CHY 6SN7GT with the same black T plates as Bad Boys? I found one with white print on base, tall clear glass, but how differ its from Sylvania BB's?
   
  THX

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I have long felt that the Hytron tall-bottle 6SN7GT was a truly excellent sounding tube.


----------



## Skylab

Yep, that's what I am Talking about. It actually does sound somewhat like the Sylvania tall black t plate tubes, but they are not the same tube, the Hytrons are slightly different for sure. And to me they have slightly better clarity and focus, although of course that could just be my samples of both.


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks Rob, but I thought they were made by Sylvania as well. The one I found have 3 holes in each plate, same as my BadBoy. I will check with the seller and see what happenes.

  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yep, that's what I am Talking about. It actually does sound somewhat like the Sylvania tall black t plate tubes, but they are not the same tube, the Hytrons are slightly different for sure. And to me they have slightly better clarity and focus, although of course that could just be my samples of both.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is a nice pair, commercial version 1951 vintage


----------



## Blackmore

Fantastic looking tubes, but slightly differ, plates have 2 holes, same as Sylvania BBoys that comes with 2 and 3 as well, so, are these Hytrons made by Sylvania?


----------



## rosgr63

Blackmore I don't honestly know who made them.
  I'll let you know how they sound soon I hope.


----------



## dminches

Did Sylvania make tubes for Hytron?  I thought they made their own until CBS bought them.


----------



## Skylab

Those tubes Stavros posted are exactly like mine, and no, I do not believe they were made by Sylvania. As Dminches said, Hytron made its own tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob.
  Three Invictus have arrived two are GTA marked and one is a long bottle chrome dome GTB style plates.
  They look and sound like Sylvania, probably made by them too.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The pictures match my tube as well.  Mine is re-branded Corvair actually, with neat looking script printed on the base, but there are plenty of clues to differentiate Hytron manufactured tubes.  The top mica has no teeth holding it to the glass, all Sylvania tubes do, and the tube number is printed with a circle logo where as Sylvania uses the octagon like RCA does.  The plates themselves do look a lot like a Sylvania plate, though I think they look a bit more polished in the light.
   
  I don't think they sound particularly similar though, Sylvania tubes are quite a bit sweeter and have more extended treble.  The Hytron is a bit subdued at the top and has greater midrange focus and coherency.  I find most tubes to be a bit peaky in the uppermid/lower treble range so to my ears the Hytron sound is what I would call balanced.  Tung Sols come pretty close too, though most are a bit bold in the upper mids by my definition.


----------



## Blackmore

Just took BadBoy uit of box, warmed up and listen, not that Bad
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  While it was one of the first in my collection I kind of ignored this tube, will give it more time to learn more about it. What do you think of BBs guys?


----------



## dminches

My tall bottle Hytrons have a code 948.  What does that translate to?


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, how Teles 6SN7GTA sounds like and who made them, RFT?
   
  THX


----------



## rosgr63

They are not bad tubes.
  They were made by RFT, Telefunken never made any 6SN7.


----------



## Currawong

Just received a pair of '50s Sylvania GTAs. Lovely sound.


----------



## Blackmore

I think this one is the same, correct me if I am wrong pls, however chrome on top only. This one dont have any prints either, but its Sylvania, isnt?


----------



## phandrew

Does anyone know if the Darkvoice 336 can use QA2408 as a replacement fro 6sn7?


----------



## rosgr63

The QA2408 is equivalent to the QB65 and B65.
  If your amp can use the B65 you'll have no problems.


----------



## Blackmore

Come on guys, are you kidding me? Where this QA2408 is comming from, this is a huge surprise for me.


----------



## rosgr63

Here it is:


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks, but already found one to and thats why my reaction was like that. Same as B65, made in UK by GEC and I didnt know anything?! I am getting mad up here
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  So, anyone tried this one, how does it sound?
   
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Here it is:


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Compared to FIVRE Black base, side getter NU sounds neutraler, having less midrange bloom and not such meatier low end, but this NU tube, possibly, is the most balanced I own. Have pushed this tube so hard and nothing nasty been detected, tried many gengres and all of them sounded great. On the other side I wouldnt call NU signature as neutral-neutral, cos there is definitely richness/warmth in there , but arent bloomy, more on the flat side, hmm, richness / warmth that on neutral or flat side, dont know if this is an good description, however the fact that this tube passed the K1000 test means a lot, at least to me.
> 
> Maybe somebody  can jump in and share as well, would be really nice.


 

 I'd love to! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Someone got a spare I can purchase?


----------



## kiertijai

I saw this Brimar 6SN7GT metal base on ebay and made a bid but did not win
  The price went skyhigh in the last 5 seconds up to almost 300$, is it worth the price?  Is it the same as the Brimar 13D2?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150773268209?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
  Here is the description
_[size=xx-large]Here is one unused new old stock Brimar ( Made in England in 1950) 6SN7GT clear glass valve in original box.[/size]_
_[size=xx-large]Equivalent to the B65. This is the much rarer metal base version and is in the top five list of most wanted 6SN7 valve tubes.[/size]_
_[size=xx-large] It has the "muddy black" plate and a cup shaped bottom getter. This tube is in perfect condition and has been fully tested.  [/size]_
_[size=xx-large]Results were - Anode 1 = 7.6mA @ 2.9mA/V   Anode 2 = 8.6mA @ 2.8mA/V.  There was no leakage or gas. Tested on an Avo Mk4.[/size]_
__


----------



## kiertijai

Please also let me know about the Mullard ECC32, there are several getters mentioned:
  inverted cup getters, button getters, plate or rectangular getters?   which one has the best sound?
  Some said that the button getters sound the best.
  and what are the getters look like?


----------



## dminches

I have had a couple different versions of the Mullard ECC32 and I can't say that I noticed a significant difference in the sound.


----------



## phandrew

I'm currently using a Brimar 6SN7 black glass on my DV 336SE. Love the dynamic sound it produces.


----------



## Xcalibur255

A Brimar with flat ladder plates.  That's rather interesting.


----------



## Spareribs

Lots of good choices. Can't go wrong with the usual suspects.


----------



## Blackmore

Received my last batch of two, Hytron and Sylvania W.
   
   
  Hytron is a very nice tube, like Rob already mentioned, somewhat cleaner, or would I say colder and less richer tone than Sylvania W and BadBoys. Low end is good, punchy & meaty, but not overdone. His clearly cleaner sound do not comes over like sterile kind, its a little more polished, but not schril or anything like that. Mids are not bloomy and top end offers enough extention and air.
   




   
   




   
   




   
   
   
   
  Sylvania W is differ beast. Richer and more focused tonaility, less meaty, but  deeper bass. I think it have more balance as total picture, but less extended top end and less airy


----------



## Audio-Omega

I had a quick listen to Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears and Raytheon 6SN7GT.  Both tubes were smooth sounding with good resolution even though they varied slightly in treble.  Depending on music, both tubes could be up there with the finest Sylvania.


----------



## Blackmore

Which one do you have, black or grey plates, TS I mean. And Raytheon, is it brown base, any pics maybe pls.
   
  THX

  
  Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> I had a quick listen to Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears and Raytheon 6SN7GT.  Both tubes were smooth sounding with good resolution even though they varied slightly in treble.  Depending on music, both tubes could be up there with the finest Sylvania.


----------



## Audio-Omega

The Tung Sol has grey plates and the Raytheon has black base.  I will post a photo tomorrow.


----------



## Blackmore

Cool, Raytheon with orange print on base?

  
  Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> The Tung Sol has grey plates and the Raytheon has black base.  I will post a photo tomorrow.


----------



## Audio-Omega

The print is in yellow.


----------



## rosgr63

Well the TS 6SN7GT Mouse Ears is one of my all time favorites.


----------



## Oskari

I'm always amazed how beautiful these old boxes are.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is there a sound difference between black and grey Tung Sol mouse ears ?


----------



## mrAdrian

Hey anyone know what my tube is..? Just got my hands on a DV336i. I'm loving the sound of it compared to the other tube I have, a RCA. The sound is so thick and smooth and lush and warm and... Amazing upgrade for my Senns hd580...
   
  They are the Sylvania xxx? Haha I see how tube amps are not good for your wallet...


----------



## Skylab

A 6SN7GT with black ladder plates. I normally associate that more with RCA, but early Sylvanias could indeed have them. Later Sylvanias were all offset T plates, and many early Sylvanias were parallel T plates. I'm sure it's a nice sounding tube.


----------



## mrAdrian

Woah I got Skylab answer my questions! *feels special!*
   
  And double woah seems like I've gotten a good tube! They sound lovely... The pairing is unbelievable...
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> A 6SN7GT with black ladder plates. I normally associate that more with RCA, but early Sylvanias could indeed have them. Later Sylvanias were all offset T plates, and many early Sylvanias were parallel T plates. I'm sure it's a nice sounding tube.


 


  While you are still here, what comments do you have about that sylvania and the rca 6080? Any suggestions for tube rolling?


----------



## Audio-Omega

Tung Sol mouse ears
  Raytheon
   
  I didn't have faith in Raytheon but it sounded good.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> While you are still here, what comments do you have about that sylvania and the rca 6080? Any suggestions for tube rolling?


 


  My advice is if you like the way it sounds, be happy


----------



## Blackmore

Looks like Sylvania BadBoy or Hytron, your Raytheon I mean

  
  Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Tung Sol mouse ears
> Raytheon
> 
> I didn't have faith in Raytheon but it sounded good.


----------



## mrAdrian

What are the mouse ears for?


----------



## Audio-Omega

The "ears" are there to stabilise the plates.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Is there a sound difference between black and grey Tung Sol mouse ears ?


 


  I would assert that there is no difference, but someone feel free to say otherwise.  IMO there is also no difference between any of the t-plate tung sols actually, with or without the mouse ear.  Pursuing the ones without the mouse ears saves you money and nets you the same tube.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





oskari said:


> I'm always amazed how beautiful these old boxes are.


 
   
  Anyone have any tricks to opening them w/o demolishing the lid?  Seriously, some of these boxes are a breath away from disintegration.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I gave up on that.  Have some clear scotch tape in my tube cleaning supply box now.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Anyone have any tricks to opening them w/o demolishing the lid?  Seriously, some of these boxes are a breath away from disintegration.


 


  Yes, there is a trick.  You have to free the locking mechanism most of them have.  The best was you do this is using a business card, playing card, or the like, and slip it under the lid, and then gently push the locking flap up so that you can see that it had released, and then use the card to left the lid up.


----------



## john57

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Anyone have any tricks to opening them w/o demolishing the lid?  Seriously, some of these boxes are a breath away from disintegration.


 

 Slowly and gently I do it. I find the bottom lids are usually in a bit better shape than the top. Unless I am planning to use the tubes as investment for selling later I do not care about the boxes.


----------



## Skylab

I, on the other hand, care a lot:


----------



## Oskari

This is how I do it. Pretty much the same thing that Skylab wrote I guess.


----------



## Anaxilus

Tried the bottom trick though it depends on what's going on down there for some boxes.  Sometimes there's that 'oh ****' moment once you get through the bottom.  Thx for tips, I'll use a card, maybe try my Recon Tanto if that doesn't work.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> Woah I got Skylab answer my questions! *feels special!*


 

 Throw out a "help with this tube" and Rob is pretty quick to respond. He's the Yoda of tubes around here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Case in point:
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I, on the other hand, care a lot:


 
   
  Now THAT's a tube collection!


----------



## john57

That tube closet is bigger than my linen closet!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Yes, I'm still impressed every time I see it.  I thought I was getting too many tubes when I outgrew the rubbermaid tote I was keeping them in.


----------



## Skylab

I post it so you guys don't have to feel bad about how many tubes you've bought


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I post it so you guys don't have to feel bad about how many tubes you've bought


 
  Yeah....that's exactly what we feel.


----------



## phandrew

Anyone here tried CV1988 tubes? How do they sound compared to 6SN7 tubes?


----------



## Oskari

I haven't, but CV1988 is really just a UK government code for 6SN7GT.


----------



## Skylab

Right - the question is WHICH CV1988?


----------



## phandrew

WHICH CV1988? I thought all CV1988 were made by Brimar and were relabeled according to the link below.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide


----------



## Skylab

But there are clear glass black base, black glass brown base, grey glass brown base...and each of these are somewhat different. The black glass brown base CV1988 tubes I have were made by STC is the Oldway factory (and are military marked only, they don't even say Brimar). 

I also have some branded Haltron that are grey glass and brown base, and they sound quite different from the black glass brown base ones.


----------



## Blackmore

Well, there are some differ CV1988 out there, even they were made by Brimar.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





phandrew said:


> I thought all CV1988 were made by Brimar


 
   
  I'd say that most, not all, were made by STC or Brimar. There are also CV1988s made by MOV and Tungsram, and possibly others. US or even Soviet sources wouldn't surprise me at all.
   
How do they sound? The same as those valves with any other label_._


----------



## phandrew

Ah ok. Thanks for the help. Well mostly i'm after is black/grey glass brown/black base. Overall though for CV1988 how do they sound compared to the normal variants of 6SN7?


----------



## Skylab

The black glass brown base are lush, with a soft top end and very robust bass. Very holographic imaging but lacking a little in transparency. IMHO.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes, there is a trick.  You have to free the locking mechanism most of them have.  The best was you do this is using a business card, playing card, or the like, and slip it under the lid, and then gently push the locking flap up so that you can see that it had released, and then use the card to left the lid up.


 


  It's good to see this question asked & answered. Often wondered if I was the only one having difficulty and what others knew.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The black glass brown base are lush, with a soft top end and very robust bass. Very holographic imaging but lacking a little in transparency. IMHO.


 

 Rob, what is your opinion on the Brimar black glass/black base?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> Rob, what is your opinion on the Brimar black glass/black base?


 


 Unfortunately, never been able to score any


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I post it so you guys don't have to feel bad about how many tubes you've bought


 


  Thanks Rob, I am still trying to convince myself!
   
  There is a Brimar CV1988 variant that looks like a Sylvania VT-231 with high mounted plates and come with a square pan getter or wire getters and oval plates.


----------



## dminches

Rob, you need to take a hi resolution picture of your tube closet and have a jigsaw puzzle made.  How cool would that be?


----------



## Blackmore

Dont do that Rob, please, cos its easier to accept that these are boxes only
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 

  
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> Rob, you need to take a hi resolution picture of your tube closet and have a jigsaw puzzle made.  How cool would that be?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Rob, you need to take a hi resolution picture of your tube closet and have a jigsaw puzzle made.  How cool would that be?


 

 Now that WOULD be cool!!!!!
   


  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Dont do that Rob, please, cos its easier to accept that these are boxes only


 

 LOL!  I can assure you, there are tubes in all of those


----------



## rosgr63

Rob, can I come and dust your closet please?
  I'll be ever so careful!


----------



## Skylab

Ha ha!  Stavros I bet your closet looks pretty similar


----------



## rosgr63

My tube types are very limited I am afraid.
   
  Here's my new teaser:


----------



## rosgr63

Brimar 6SN7GT/CV1988 Short Black Round Plates.


----------



## blairfrischx

I have a Darkvoice 336SE with a 6SN7 preamp tube. Does anybody know if the CV181 or CV181-Z would work as a replacement, since the two are electrically similar?
   
  I'm also trying to get a hold of some Ken-Rad 6SN7 tubes to sub in and see how they sound. For now, I am using a Sylvania, and it performs beautifully. I'm just looking to see if I can try other tubes and get something I like more.


----------



## rosgr63

The CV181/ECC32 is not equivalent to the 6SN7.
  They draw more current and could damage your transformer.
   
  What is your output tube?


----------



## blairfrischx

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The CV181/ECC32 is not equivalent to the 6SN7.
> They draw more current and could damage your transformer.
> 
> What is your output tube?


 

  
  The output tube is a 6AS7/6080. If I am not mistaken, the CV181 draws ~900mA while the 6SN7 only draws ~650mA, correct?


----------



## rosgr63

Right.
  Which 6AS7G/6080 are you using?
   
  If you use a RCA 6AS7G and you like a relaxed presentation I would recommend the RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass.


----------



## blairfrischx

Oh, right. It is a Svetlana 6H13C tube right now (the one that came with it when I got it). I have also been looking for NOS options there. I just got the amp recently, so I am still getting acquainted with all of the solid combinations that others have reported.
   
  I've recently ordered a CBS Hytron 6SN7GTB and a Ken Rad 6SN7GT, so I am waiting for those to come in. I also ordered a GE Five star 6080 and a Sylvania 6AS7G. I'm keeping my eyes out for RCA tubes at a decent price.


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





blairfrischx said:


> Oh, right. It is a Svetlana 6H13C tube right now (the one that came with it when I got it). I have also been looking for NOS options there. I just got the amp recently, so I am still getting acquainted with all of the solid combinations that others have reported.
> 
> I've recently ordered a CBS Hytron 6SN7GTB and a Ken Rad 6SN7GT, so I am waiting for those to come in. I also ordered a GE Five star 6080 and a Sylvania 6AS7G. I'm keeping my eyes out for RCA tubes at a decent price.


 


  I've got an extra RCA 6080 that would love to trade for something else


----------



## blairfrischx

rosgr63 said:


> The CV181/ECC32 is not equivalent to the 6SN7.
> They draw more current and could damage your transformer.
> 
> What is your output tube?




This link would seem to indicate that the CV181-Z (the shuguang treasure tube) would be a safe replacement for a 6SN7 even if your standard CV181 is not. I'd like to try it out, but some confirmation from someone who's tried it before would be appreciated.


----------



## Blackmore

The real thing is not, Chinese just like to use the numberings and fancy names to sell it better, their way of making and selling things are silly and only for their own profit. What are their knowledge? What have they developed? Their tubes were and are  based on somebody else design / find, what ever its Russian, West/East European or American, period.
  
  Quote: 





blairfrischx said:


> This link would seem to indicate that the CV181-Z (the shuguang treasure tube) would be a safe replacement for a 6SN7 even if your standard CV181 is not. I'd like to try it out, but some confirmation from someone who's tried it before would be appreciated.


----------



## Skylab

The Shuguang CV-181Z is indeed equivalent to the 6SN7.  It is NOT a real CV-181, it is just a 6SN7 in the CV-181 shape.  And I thought is was only just okay sounding, and not worth the asking price, myself.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Shuguang CV181-Z was good until I got vintage Sylvania and Tung Sol tubes.


----------



## blairfrischx

Got it. CV181-Z, probably not worth the money.
   
  I really just want my new tubes to get here so I can get an idea of which combination I prefer. The waiting is just going to make me want to buy more.


----------



## rosgr63

Can anybody recognize this 6SN7GT?


----------



## Skylab

Interesting...if you hadn't said it was a 6SN7 I would have guessed it was a Sylvania 6SL7GT - they had a lot of round plate 6SL7's.


----------



## rosgr63

It should be easy for you Rob, except TS not many makers made round plates 6SN7.


----------



## Skylab

Right...Brimar.  So is it some Brimar variety?


----------



## rosgr63

You are getting very close!
  It's not a Brimar.


----------



## Skylab

Well...my last guess is Mullard ECC33...those can have round plates, but of course are not a 6SN7GT...otherwise I give up!


----------



## rosgr63

Rob, I'll wait for a few more shots and then I will post a photo of the label.
  David any ideas?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Rob, I'll wait for a few more shots and then I will post a photo of the label.
> David any ideas?


 


  Cossor!... ?


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Rob, I'll wait for a few more shots and then I will post a photo of the label.
> David any ideas?


 


  I got nothing!


----------



## Skylab

silent one said:


> Cossor!... ?




IIRC, Cossor only relabeled Brimar tubes.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> IIRC, Cossor only relabeled Brimar tubes.


 

 My eyes may have twitched, but thought I saw the Cossie with round plates. Likely what happened is I confused the corresponding paragraph with the pix.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Was going to toss Fivre out there, but a lot of those were licensed from RCA designs.  Maybe something French made?


----------



## Silent One

What about Mazda? Pope? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Perhaps, we're limited to one guess?


----------



## kchew

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> You are getting very close!
> It's not a Brimar.


 


 So I'm guessing it's European? I'm thinking it's Neotron from France.


----------



## rosgr63

Well done Xcalibur & KChew!
   
  Neotron from France 6SN7GT, under amp tests, I'll report soon.


----------



## kchew

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Well done Xcalibur & KChew!
> 
> Neotron from France 6SN7GT, under amp tests, I'll report soon.


 

 Thanks, I wonder how they sound? You posted a photo of black glass Neotrons on page 58 here; I vaguely remember someone mentioning a French round-plate tube in this thread, did some searching and found your old post.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi KChew,
  Unfortunately this tube is noisy, going back for replacement.
   
  My NIB pair which I have tested some time ago (post#868, page58) did not sound that exciting.


----------



## blairfrischx

Just met with a local guy and picked up some new tubes.
   
  Two are Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7WGTs with matching production codes, and the third is a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tall bottle.Anyone else have experience with these?
   
  Pictures of them: http://imgur.com/a/ZwcPk
   
  I also picked up some RCA 6080s and a couple Amperex Holland Bugle Boy 6DJ8s.Overall, I'm pretty happy.


----------



## Silent One

Xcalibur255 & kchew


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Well done Xcalibur & KChew!
> 
> Neotron from France 6SN7GT, under amp tests, I'll report soon.


 

 Your quiz made for a good midday break!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





blairfrischx said:


> Just met with a local guy and picked up some new tubes.
> 
> Two are Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7WGTs with matching production codes, and the third is a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tall bottle.Anyone else have experience with these?
> 
> ...


 

 Both the Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7WGT and Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB are nice sounding tubes.
  Good choice.


----------



## mhamam

I was wondering how the Phillips ECG 6SN7WGTA (blue label) would stand compared to the cv1988 or the other top tubes mentioned there. I have been using these philips tubes for years on my preamp, but one of them decided to go bad now. I have to buy a batch of new tubes anyway, so I though of trying something new. The cv1988 or the sylvania 6sn7w with metal plate seem to rank very high in the thread, but they are very hard to find and very expensive. I wonder if anybody has a suggestion for other tubes in the same SQ category but easier to find and buy?


----------



## Skylab

I thought the Philips ECG were decent, but not great.  Maybe try for some Sylvania 6SN7WGT's - these are very nice sounding and are generally pretty easy to find.


----------



## mhamam

how do you like the rca vt231 (or the other vt231 by sylvania and raytheon)? I was told it is very close to the cv1988 and that it is silkier (warmer?) than the sylvania 6SN7WGT's. Are the sylvania bad boys similar to the latter? They cost less apparently.


----------



## rosgr63

The RCA VT-231 Smoked Glass is one of my favorite tubes.
  Warmer than the Bad Boys, coast wise I would say they are in the same price range.
  I am referring to the 3 hole plates Bad Boys with an early fifties code.
  My opinion is based on my equipment.


----------



## blairfrischx

I've been listening to the Sylvania 6SN7WGT's for a couple days now. Maybe they need burned in more, but for now I am actually kinda preferring the sound of the CBS Hytron 6SN7GT. I'm also burning in a NOS Ken Rad VT231, hoping that its hum dies down a little.
   
  My amp is a Darkvoice 336SE. I've been alternating between a GE 6080, an RCA 6080, and a Svetlana 6H13C
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I thought the Philips ECG were decent, but not great.  Maybe try for some Sylvania 6SN7WGT's - these are very nice sounding and are generally pretty easy to find.


----------



## Johmem

I actually found some local tubes.  Any decent treasures here?
   
  I got 5 of these (4 in boxes)  all the same packing date

   
  And 3 of these in boxes


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





johmem said:


> I actually found some local tubes.  Any decent treasures here?
> 
> I got 5 of these (4 in boxes)  all the same packing date
> 
> ...


 
  The ones in the bottom picture look like they are Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base, short bottle, chrome top and black plates. I have a pair of those and they sound fantastic in my WA5-LE.


----------



## Skylab

And the top one is a Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT - also a very nice tube.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Both good scores, more so the Sylvanias IMO.


----------



## sridhar3

Hi guys.  Latecomer to this thread.  I'm probably going to pick up a Cary Audio Design CAD-300 SEI in the near future (~3mo).  Already decided I'll probably go with something from EML for the 300B.  However, not sure what to get for the 6SN7s (the amp uses one input and two driver 6SN7s).  I'm generally not a fan of the NOS tube game, but from what I understand, none of the new-production 6SN7s are worth a damn.  I don't know much about NOS tubes, so I thought I'd ask here.
   
  I'm looking for something that's fairly readily available.  I'm looking to spend $600 or less for the three tubes.  And I'm looking for a well-rounded tube that won't squash the soundstage or obscure detail.  I suspect I'm asking for too much, but it's worth a shot at the very least.  I guess Tung-Sol, Sylvania and RCA are the go-to brands I'm looking for?
   
  If I'm not mistaken, Blackmore, you have a 300 SEI.  Your input would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Johmem

Cool.  The guy I got them from inherited an old Zenith toolbox full of tubes and a tube tester.  He tested most of those as NOS before the tester started to malfunction.  The tester is being repaired at an old-school guitar amp shop, and we will be testing some more pairs.  I saw a pair of Sylvania VT-231s that look like the "badboy" tubes you guys talk about but with white lettering, a pair of the Sylvanias with the almost excessive silvering, and a pair of what I believe to be black glass ken rads, but one has a different brand, insides look the same.
   
  How much should I be offering for these tubes if they test out well?  I gave him $100 for the 8 tubes I showed in the pictures.


----------



## Xcalibur255

You did very well at that price for those 8 tubes.
   
  Every tube you just mentioned is a highly desirable and sought 6SN7, quite the nice collection to have found.  If you want please post some photos for better identification of them.
   
  Ken Rads in the black glass weren't re-branded often from my experience.  What you saw might have been black glass National Unions.
   
  edit:  I should caution you, if that tester is old and hasn't been calibrated then its test results are probably not trustworthy.  At the very least its valuable to test for gas/shorts/leaks but the emission testing (or mutual conductance if its a nice tester) may be way off.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Hi guys.  Latecomer to this thread.  I'm probably going to pick up a Cary Audio Design CAD-300 SEI in the near future (~3mo).  Already decided I'll probably go with something from EML for the 300B.  However, not sure what to get for the 6SN7s (the amp uses one input and two driver 6SN7s).  I'm generally not a fan of the NOS tube game, but from what I understand, none of the new-production 6SN7s are worth a damn.  I don't know much about NOS tubes, so I thought I'd ask here.
> 
> I'm looking for something that's fairly readily available.  I'm looking to spend $600 or less for the three tubes.  And I'm looking for a well-rounded tube that won't squash the soundstage or obscure detail.  I suspect I'm asking for too much, but it's worth a shot at the very least.  I guess Tung-Sol, Sylvania and RCA are the go-to brands I'm looking for?
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, Blackmore, you have a 300 SEI.  Your input would be greatly appreciated.


 


  EML are a very good choice for Power Tubes.
  Blackmore and me don't think much of the re issues, but with your budget you'll be able to buy some very nice 6SN7's.
  He's done lots of tube rolling and serious listening so his opinion will be spot on.


----------



## kchew

Something you don't see everyday, clear glass Marconi Osram B65.
   

   
  One of them hums badly though, I had to ask for a refund.


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice indeed.
  They sound wonderful.


----------



## kchew

I hope they do, since one tube is faulty I didn't try the other tube at length. Does anyone know if there's any sonic difference between the black glass and clear glass B65? The clear glass variant seems much rarer than the other, making it hard to find a matching replacement.


----------



## rosgr63

The Black Glass sometimes have a wire getter so they can sound slightly different.
  My clear glass tubes come with an inverted cup getter like yours.
  I recently got  a clear glass one which had a dead section.


----------



## kchew

Oh man, that's a bummer. Hopefully we can find replacements. Would you know if inverted cup getters indicate earlier or later manufacture than wire getters?


----------



## rosgr63

I believe wire getters are later production.


----------



## Blackmore

I am afraid my advise will not do any good for your wallet, because I am NOS tubes guy, with only one exception and thats 300B tubes that made by EML, EAT, KR and Takatsuki.
   
  Cary is a wonderful amp, amp that responding fantastically to tube rolling and you can create very differ tonality to your liking.
   
  Right now I am very pleased with an pair of FIVRE's brown base in driver section and input must be not less than that:
   
  - Brimar CV1988, clear glass, brown base, O getter on bottom with print on glass  ( rare ) - or CV1988 Brown base with print on base as alternative.
   
  - ECC33 Mullard, brown base, normal bottle
   
  - NU with grey coated glass ( rare )
   
  - TS Black glass, round plates
   
  - Sylvania 6SN7W, short bottle
   
  - RCA Grey coated glass
   
   
  There are more, but I think if you try these, you will be done with your rolling.
   
  If you decide to get EML 300B tubes, concider their XLS model, cos seems that they are way to go and get most of EML's positive feedbacks as 300B upgrade / replacement.
   
  Good luck.
   
   
  Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Hi guys.  Latecomer to this thread.  I'm probably going to pick up a Cary Audio Design CAD-300 SEI in the near future (~3mo).  Already decided I'll probably go with something from EML for the 300B.  However, not sure what to get for the 6SN7s (the amp uses one input and two driver 6SN7s).  I'm generally not a fan of the NOS tube game, but from what I understand, none of the new-production 6SN7s are worth a damn.  I don't know much about NOS tubes, so I thought I'd ask here.
> 
> I'm looking for something that's fairly readily available.  I'm looking to spend $600 or less for the three tubes.  And I'm looking for a well-rounded tube that won't squash the soundstage or obscure detail.  I suspect I'm asking for too much, but it's worth a shot at the very least.  I guess Tung-Sol, Sylvania and RCA are the go-to brands I'm looking for?
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, Blackmore, you have a 300 SEI.  Your input would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## sridhar3

Thank you, Blackmore!  That's a great response.  Exactly what I was looking for.  Incredibly helpful post.  I'll get searching for those tubes you mentioned.  I appreciate your assistance.


----------



## Xcalibur255

That's...... an expensive shopping list.


----------



## john57

I am using 12SN7 tubes using a voltage doubler 6SN7 to 12SN7 adapter. The pair of NOS Radiocoin tubes I got are at 1/6 of the going rate for TS BGRP 6SN7.
   
  
  The box says MFG, for Duff & Co. in N.Y.C. The tubes are noise free as well.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





john57 said:


> I am using 12SN7 tubes using a voltage doubler 6SN7 to 12SN7 adapter. The pair of NOS Radiocoin tubes I got are at 1/6 of the going rate for TS BGRP 6SN7.
> The box says MFG, for Duff & Co. in N.Y.C. The tubes are noise free as well.


 


  What sonic character does it have? Besides price, why does it have you grinning?


----------



## john57

The sonic character is that it has more of a wider sound-stage instead of the narrow but good front to back depth. Vocals are outstanding and more important feels like there is a actual person behind the diaphragm! The sounds are very realistic on my Tannoy monitors. This concludes my tube rolling of the 12v tubes.


----------



## Silent One

I like what I hear! I hope later on this spring, I can get some of that 12SN7 action.


----------



## rosgr63

For your budget, I would add the following tubes to Blackmore's list:
   
  FIVRE Early Black Base Muddy Grey Plates, Italian Navy,
   
  Telefunken 6SN7GTA/GTB
   
  CBS 2C51 with a 2C51 to 6SN7 adapter in the driver position.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


rosgr63 said:


> For your budget, I would add the following tubes to Blackmore's list:
> 
> FIVRE Early Black Base Muddy Grey Plates, Italian Navy,
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you sir.  Will do.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> Thank you *sir*.  Will do.


 

 I like my newly acquired title!


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 It shouldn't..... When I get that it means to me that they are seeimg me old!


----------



## rosgr63

That's OK,  tube addiction comes with age!


----------



## xinque

Mullard ECC32 and Sylvania 6SN7W Metal base arriving this week. Which one to roll first !?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





john57 said:


> The sonic character is that it has more of a wider sound-stage instead of the narrow but good front to back depth. Vocals are outstanding and more important feels like there is a actual person behind the diaphragm! The sounds are very realistic on my Tannoy monitors. This concludes my tube rolling of the 12v tubes.


 


  Thanks for your valuable info John.
   
  When you have the chance I would suggest the B36, a tube worth getting and trying.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





xinque said:


> Mullard ECC32 and Sylvania 6SN7W Metal base arriving this week. Which one to roll first !?


 


  I would roll the Sylvania first because once you listen to the ECC32 you won't take it out.


----------



## rosgr63

I agree with David 100%.
   
  Make sure your amp can handle the ECC32 and happy listening!


----------



## xinque

Started listening to the ECC32 first cause you guys got me all curious and hyped about it.  Only have a pair of Brimar CV1988 to compare it against, so dunno if that's fair since I only have about 5 hours on the new tube.  Initial impressions are it's a faster, leaner tube than the Brimar.  Hadn't noticed it before but the Brimar has a fuller, thicker sound to it.  Not necessarily a bad thing imo, think I might prefer the Brimar over the Mullard in the albums I've listened to so far, but just by a smidge.  Listening mostly to instrumental albums.  Hopefully some more hours on the ECC32 will change my opinion.


----------



## kchew

I have the same impression, the ECC32 is not as meaty as the CV1988, but it's definitely faster and more dynamic. The extra gain of the ECC32 can be a nuisance though; my amp has a stepped volume pot, so what's just nice with a 6SN7 is either a little too loud or a little too soft with the ECC32.


----------



## xinque

Have about another 10 hours on the ECC32 now.  Starting to like the tube more, finding I prefer them over the CV1988 for anything with vocals.  Hadn't noticed before but the fullness of the Brimar seems to distort voices somewhat.  I feel the Brimar is less suited for modern genres like rock, electronic, pop, etc..  - though it really seems to shine on the classical, jazz, and instrumental stuff I've listened to so far.


----------



## Silent One

If I had an ECC32, for good measure I'd first reach for some vintage Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald and Dinah Washington. That'd tell me a thing or two about vocal capability!


----------



## Blackmore

Guys, anyone tried Philips Miniwatt 6SN7? Original, made in Holland one. Any impressions?
   
  THX


----------



## rosgr63

Blackmore are you referring to this tube?


----------



## Blackmore

Yes, looks like it


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Yes, looks like it


 
   
  Hei, that's my photo! And that's an MBLE tube in it.


----------



## Blackmore

Got this photo from the local seller, so???
   
   
  Hmm, thought it was Holland made, chips...
   
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> Hei, that's my photo! And that's an MBLE tube in it.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Got this photo from the local seller, so???


 
   
  Easy to find using Google image search.
   
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Hmm, thought it was Holland made, chips...


 
   
  Ask for the code.


----------



## Blackmore

L1D? under the base, also printed made in holland on the glass.
   
  Are you using this codes list? http://www.triodeel.com/images/philipstubecodes.pdf
   
   
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> Easy to find using Google image search.
> 
> 
> Ask for the code.


----------



## Oskari

r93 L1D I guess in full. L = MBLE.


----------



## Blackmore

Yes, I think you are right, thanks. How about r90 44I, [size=x-small][size=x-small]Venolanda S.A., Venezuela?[/size][/size]
   
   
   
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> r93 L1D I guess in full. L = MBLE.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Are you using this codes list? http://www.triodeel.com/images/philipstubecodes.pdf


 
   
http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf
http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeList.pdf


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> How about r90 44I, [size=x-small][size=x-small]Venolanda S.A., Venezuela?[/size][/size]


 
   
  Probably Philips Eindhoven (if 4 and not the Heerlen triangle).


----------



## Blackmore

No, its clear 2x 4 and then I
   
  Still a little confusing, because on one list / part of the list 4 is Holland, but on another not, guess I miss something where to look at it first.
   
  THX a lot.
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> Probably Philips Eindhoven (if 4 and not the Heerlen triangle).


----------



## Oskari

I think the factory code was reused; first Eindhoven, later Venezuela.


----------



## rosgr63

A very nice tube worth considering is the short bottle Toshiba 6SL7GT.
  It has a lot of the ECC35 qualities/magic at 1/10 of the price.


----------



## tagosaku

just won a Mullard ECC34 on ePay. Didn't think a $50.00 bid will go very far, but it went through.
  The listing looked good to me, so hoping I got lucky and there is nothing fishy with this item 
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270958010622&ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:US:1123#ht_794wt_1398


----------



## Skylab

The real question is, what are you going to do with it? It's much less close to a 6SN7 than even the ECC32 is.


----------



## tagosaku

Opps,  I mixed them up because of the description 
   
  How risky would it be to try it on a MPX3 (w/Piltron)?


----------



## Skylab

Risky? Probably not very, as long as an ECC32 would have been OK. The heater current draw is the same - .95 A, versus the .6 A that a standard 6SN7GT draws. If the power transformer is OK for the extra heater current, then the main issue is that the amplification factor is just over half of a 6SN7, and 1/3 of an ECC32. Some of the other operating points are also different and I'm not sure what impact that will have on the sound. 

Since you bought is, you might as well try it, again if the power transformer was rated to handle an ECC32.


----------



## rosgr63

I have used ECC34's with my SP Extreme (Bolder Mod) without any problems.
  Sound wise it's fine, but not as good as the ECC32.
  Some people regard them highly.


----------



## sridhar3

Won a black glass round plate Tung Sol 6SN7GT on eBay last night: http://tinyurl.com/bvofb9y
   
  Probably should've asked somebody on this thread if this tube was the real deal before making a bid, but there wasn't much time left, so I figured I'd take the plunge.


----------



## Blackmore

Tube looks good to me, lets hope it will perform well. The seller, on the other hand, is the story teller and the price is more common than not. I strongly advice you to buy tubes from the trust source, especially when you pay full price. Let us know.
  Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Won a black glass round plate Tung Sol 6SN7GT on eBay last night: http://tinyurl.com/bvofb9y
> 
> Probably should've asked somebody on this thread if this tube was the real deal before making a bid, but there wasn't much time left, so I figured I'd take the plunge.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Tube looks good to me, lets hope it will perform well. The seller, on the other hand, is the story teller and the price is more common than not. I strongly advice you to buy tubes from the trust source, especialy when you pay full price. Let us know.


 
   
  Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  No more Fivre B65 have popped up on eBay unfortunately.  I'll keep looking.


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice tube at a very good price, well done!
  BTW FIVRE never made any B65 as far as I know,
   
  Here is a FIVRE 6SN7GTA with a bottom lighting bridge.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Very nice tube at a very good price, well done!
> BTW FIVRE never made any B65 as far as I know,
> 
> Here is a FIVRE 6SN7GTA with a bottom lighting bridge.


 
   
  Thank you, kind sir!  And that is a beautiful picture.  I'm probably thinking of the 6SN7GT, but the eBay ads had "B65" written in the listing titles, so that's likely the source of confusion.


----------



## Blackmore

The sellers use 6SN7, B65 and ECC32 all together to just make it possible that their ad will be found with any search option used by possible buyer.
  Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Thank you, kind sir!  And that is a beautiful picture.  I'm probably thinking of the 6SN7GT, but the eBay ads had "B65" written in the listing titles, so that's likely the source of confusion.


----------



## Silent One

It is not clear to me why Tung-Sol went away from the early version in the BGRP - Round mica to Oval mica and what changes in sound, if any. I have the Oval, but now and then see sellers touting the Round mica as superior. However, to be clear, I am not worried and enjoying my pair as I should but just curious.


----------



## Skylab

WHY they did it, we will never know. Some people claim the round mica is slightly better, probably because they are older. I honestly could not tell any difference at all.


----------



## Silent One

With everyone seemingly ramped up with war time efforts, perhaps someone had an "Ah-ha" moment. And the new version quickly found itself out in the theater...


----------



## Xcalibur255

My personal theory is better decoupling of the structure from the glass to help prevent transmission of vibrations.  This being due to the fact that there are fewer points of contact from the two tabs on the oval mica vs. the many teeth pressing against the glass on the round mica version.  Mind you I have no basis for this, it's just something that crossed my mind while I was thinking about it one day.  Tung-Sol adopted the oval mica on quite a few of their tubes all around that time so there must have been an engineering reason for it.


----------



## Silent One

This sounds, well... _sound._


----------



## rosgr63

I think TS started with round mica then went to the oval mica and then back to the round one again.
   
  I have been told that the round mica has a stonger less microphonic structure.
   
  I agree with Rob about the sound signature.
  What is more important is the material the grid posts are made from.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> What is more important is the material the grid posts are made from.


 
   
  Fully agree with this.  It's a shame whenever a pair is sold with mismatched grid post material, which is pretty often.


----------



## rosgr63

The TS round mica has one more well kept secret, I wonder how many people know!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Fully agree with this.  It's a shame whenever a pair is sold with mismatched grid post material, which is pretty often.


 
   
   I am stealing your words xcalibur.
  You have said this before and to me it's the most important factor when choosing from otherwise similar tubes.


----------



## Silent One

Secrets... revealed.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Secrets... revealed.


 
   
  Some, not all yet!


----------



## Silent One

You mean 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 we're on our own? I would have guessed copper grid posts but seems like you two already mentioned that. Not sure what else the difference could be.


----------



## Xcalibur255

It's news to me as well.  I never really investigated the differences closely.  It has to be something non-essential that doesn't affect sound like getter style.  A round mica combined with the black coating would make it nearly impossible to see, which would certainly keep it a secret.


----------



## rosgr63

You are close Xcalibur, it affects microphonics but not the sound that much.


----------



## Silent One

Amazing! Here we have a coating the color Black. Which is actually the absence of color. To bring about the absence of microphonics... _who knew?!_


----------



## rosgr63

This is not the difference SO because they both have Black Glass, right?


----------



## Silent One

For some reason, I thought Xcalibur255 was talking about a coating within the tube but not the envelope. Like on an internal part. Now, I'm really wondering... Perhaps, you could share more about your discovery. Something you observed looking at photos? Pulled one of each out of your well stocked collection?? Or was it merely pointed out to you by someone else?!


----------



## rosgr63

I was told by one of my tube suppliers.
  One might have to destroy one of each different mica tubes to find out.
  I could never do that, so I cannot confirm whether it's true or not.
   
  However if somebody has two dead tubes with the different micas then we can find out, I'll let them know what to look for!


----------



## Silent One

Think I'll go to bed early for once. Instead of counting sheep 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll ponder the difference until I get v-e-r-y sleepy! Have yourself a most brilliant day/night, rosgr63!


----------



## rosgr63

Oh, I can't have you thinking about this!
   
  The oval mica have an extra support rod I was told.
  That makes them less microphonic!
   
  Good night SO!


----------



## Silent One

Thanks. This neatly fits in with my earlier comment - post 2128.


----------



## rosgr63

Research and development never stopped.


----------



## Silent One

Looking forward to returning my attention to the FIVRE's later this week. Finally got around to WAR this past weekend. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Better late than never.


----------



## rosgr63

Cisco Kid, Me and Baby Brother, Galaxy, Cinco De Mayo, The World is a Ghetto, Low Rider, Tobacco Road, Outlaw, Spill the Wine, Hey Señorita, Southern Part of Texas, Get Down to name a few.
   
  Actually I am listening to these tracks as we speak.
   
  Driver is a FIVRE 6CG7 driving a pair of NU 6F8G's.
  Sounds good.


----------



## Skylab

Some of my oval mica TS BGRP have steel rods, and some have copper rods. Not sure I have ever really thought much about if there is any sonic difference that can be attributed to that either.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The difference jumped out at me.  I wasn't even looking for one, I just observed mismatched tone in a pair of tubes I had and began to examine the tube more closely to see if there were any physical differences and the posts was the only one.  Given it will have different heating and conducting properties from steel it stands to reason it will affect some things.  In every comparison I've made steel posts have a leaner sound that is a bit hotter in the upper mids and copper posts have a slightly richer warmer sound with a bit more mid bloom.  I universally prefer the copper in tubes where I have both, the harmonics just seem more real and fleshed out in those tubes.


----------



## john57

Xcalibur255
  You may be right I have the 12SN7 TS BGRP and it uses steel posts and I judge them to be just a bit on the lean side.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The difference jumped out at me.  I wasn't even looking for one, I just observed mismatched tone in a pair of tubes I had and began to examine the tube more closely to see if there were any physical differences and the posts was the only one.


 
   
  What were you listening to when you made this discovery?  I don't think I would notice that especially with a stereo recording.


----------



## Silent One

My pair is sitting on Copper. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well, you know what I mean...


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dminches said:


> What were you listening to when you made this discovery?  I don't think I would notice that especially with a stereo recording.


 





 I'd like to know as well.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The difference jumped out at me.  I wasn't even looking for one, I just observed mismatched tone in a pair of tubes I had and began to examine the tube more closely to see if there were any physical differences and the posts was the only one.  Given it will have different heating and conducting properties from steel it stands to reason it will affect some things.  In every comparison I've made steel posts have a leaner sound that is a bit hotter in the upper mids and copper posts have a slightly richer warmer sound with a bit more mid bloom.  I universally prefer the copper in tubes where I have both, the harmonics just seem more real and fleshed out in those tubes.


 
   
   





 You're good!


----------



## CEE TEE

I've got a bad Oval Mica.  I could send it to you to open up.
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I was told by one of my tube suppliers.
> One might have to destroy one of each different mica tubes to find out.
> I could never do that, so I cannot confirm whether it's true or not.
> 
> However if somebody has two dead tubes with the different micas then we can find out, I'll let them know what to look for!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> What were you listening to when you made this discovery?  I don't think I would notice that especially with a stereo recording.


 
  You mean what music?  I don't recall exactly.  It was just a feeling that creeped up on me over time while listening.  I could not shake the feeling that tonal balance was different on the right channel vs. the left so I swapped the tubes and differences in tone followed.  I initially thought it to be electrical mismatching or something with that particular pair of tubes, but after some investigating I discovered several other pairs of tubes I owned that had mismatched grid posts in the same way and all of them exhibited the same tonal imbalance.  On pairs with matching posts the tone always felt the same on each channel, or in other words it sounded right and nothing was amiss.
   
  This was one of the first things I learned to check for when buying tubes in pairs, but by that time I had already bought quite a bit of my collection anyway.


----------



## Skylab

I wouldn't go opening tubes. Unless you enjoy Mercury poisoning.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Well, now my other BGRP Tung Sol, the one that was good, is howling in the amp.  *sigh*
   
  I would wonder if it was the amp, but I've had somewhere around 15 other 6SN7 tubes in this socket and all of them were dead quiet.  But both of my absurdly expensive Tung Sols have noise problems up the wazoo.
   
  Maybe this is part of the reason why I like Sylvania tubes so much.


----------



## rosgr63

I can confirm xcalibur's findings.
  I too have found that the copper rod versions of the same tube sound smoother.
  I noticed it by accident using TS 6SN7 BGRP's but since then on some other brands aswell.
   
*EDIT *Rob and David my hearing if anything is not that good, but I detected the diference before Xcalibur mentioned this. However some really nice tubes like the B65/QB65/QA2408, etc that have steel posts sound great.


----------



## Skylab

I will need to make a test! I have more of the copper than the steel, thank goodness


----------



## rosgr63

Good morning Rob,
  It'll be very interesting to see what you find out.
   
  Meantime when the ebay God's fall asleep and the addiction never stops.......
   
  Note that the non military versions are shorter.


----------



## Blackmore

Man, I wouldnt mind to have extra one of these, fantastic tubes, congrats!
   





  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Good morning Rob,
> It'll be very interesting to see what you find out.
> 
> Meantime when the ebay God's fall asleep and the addiction never stops.......
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

My Tube Mate, let's wait until the amp tests are finished.
   
  We've seen too many bad tubes been sold lately, so keep  your fingers crossed for me!


----------



## Xcalibur255

If you want to unload the single tube I would be interested as well.


----------



## Skylab

I wonder if we could get moderator permission to openly discuss buy/sell/trade of only 6N7's in this thread


----------



## 9pintube

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I wouldn't go opening tubes. Unless you enjoy Mercury poisoning.





  Duh---------------------- very good advice *Skylab *!!!   Be safe with dead tubes, make Christmas tree declarations out of your bad tubes...... I use an old Western Electric 300B for my trees star.... Back to the 6sn7 tubes, I can't get past the sound of the RCA 5692 "Red Base" tubes, or for some more detail The Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass... Does anyone find the VT-231 to be a little microphonic?


----------



## Skylab

Every Ken Rad 6SN7 I ever owned was very microphonic. I thought it was bad luck, but now I'm not so sure.


----------



## tagosaku

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I will need to make a test! I have more of the copper than the steel, thank goodness


 
   
   
  Lucky you. I have three steel and one copper


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I wonder if we could get moderator permission to openly discuss buy/sell/trade of only 6N7's in this thread


 
   





 I'll have ur back!


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur, have you ever had your misbehaving TS tested?
  I can't understand why both are playing up.
  After how many hours did the problem surface?
   
  Another observation, I noticed some tubes that are used which is evident from cathode boil off marks test much stronger than others which don't have any marks at all. Any ideas why this is so?
   
  I think it would be a great idea if the moderators would allow tube sales/trades within this thread.
  I personally have not sold/traded a single tube yet, but I don't mind helping people to find what they are looking for, if I can that is.


----------



## blairfrischx

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Every Ken Rad 6SN7 I ever owned was very microphonic. I thought it was bad luck, but now I'm not so sure.


 

 I also own one. It is indeed very microphonic.


----------



## Blackmore

Is it possible that this may depends on amp?
  Quote: 





blairfrischx said:


> I also own one. It is indeed very microphonic.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Xcalibur, have you ever had your misbehaving TS tested?
> I can't understand why both are playing up.
> After how many hours did the problem surface?
> 
> ...


 
  Not re-tested, but they were well tested by the seller (whom I trust) when I bought them.  Actually a number of other people on the forum bought tubes from the same person around the same time and nobody seemed to have problems.  These tubes were silent and well-behaved in my old Woo amp, but at the same time I can't really point the finger at my current amp because these are the only tubes acting up out of the whole collection.  It seems to be a vibration problem, if I tap the desk hard it will throw either of the tung sols into fits.  The worse of the two will just start howling and your only choice is to turn the amp off, this one used to be fine but it too howls but quiets back down.  The big sticker is there is static in the left channel that is constant and its enough to make me want to pull it out of the amp.
   
  I'm giving the tube 2 weeks to see if some hours help/hurt then I'm just going to put them back in the box and reflect on what a waste of $400 they were.
   
  As for your second question, I suspect you know more about tubes than I do but I have read that tubes don't really achieve their full emission until they have been used for a couple hundred hours at least, then they stabilize and very gradually lose emission over their lifetime.  I've experienced this with my 5998 tubes.  They were real NOS tubes and sounded pretty awful at first, like they were used up and weak.  Over the course of burn-in they steadily became stronger until the sound stabilized about 150 hours in.  So maybe very new tubes are just testing weaker because they are unused sometimes.


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur have you "heated up" the pins?
   
  It's true the tubes achieve their full emission after a few hundred hours and after extensive use one section becomes weak and then the other follows.
   
  Also some tubes that have not been used for a long time may never wake up.
  In some countries the military used to run the stock/unused tubes every few years to make sure they are ready for use.
   
  I don't think I know more about tubes than you. I learn new things about them every day.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Xcalibur have you "heated up" the pins?


 
  I'm scared to honestly.  I am very clumsy with tools.  I do own a low power soldering iron I bought to fix one of my computer monitors, but I had to ask a friend to do the soldering because I didn't trust myself with the job.
   
  Glenn did this for me with a Sylvania tube, but we weren't able to save it.  It turned out to be a short between the cathode.  The other tube from that pair is now my daily use tube in my amp so it all worked out I suppose.  I still have never found a tube that renders such beautiful vocals as that Sylvania, maybe an ECC32 but they're too expensive.  It's a shame they are misidentified so often.


----------



## Silent One

With the vast numbers of tubes Sylvania cranked out, there's bound to be a tube for everyone's tastes. You've certainly found yours. I'm following your current Tung-Sol dilemma. After two weeks, if they don't get themselves right, maybe we can give 'em a go here and see what they do inside this amp.
   
  I'll be on the sideline and watching...


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur just plug in the soldering iron and wait until it gets hot.
  Then run it up and down the pins so they get hot, that's all.
   
  Bruno, my French Tube Guru and dear friend, actually uses a solder pump to remove the old solder and re solders with fresh one.
   
  If the worst comes to the worst re-basing might be an option.
   
*PS This is Bruno's photo.*


----------



## cacatalysis

Any comments about the B65 in the pictures will be appreciated.  I am told by the seller that these are better than other Marconi/Osram metal base, smoky glass B65s.


----------



## Silent One

I've always admired that look with the metal base Osram/Marconi's...


----------



## grokit

blackmore said:


> Is it possible that this may depends on amp?
> 
> 
> blairfrischx said:
> ...




I hope mine aren't, I have a nice BG pair on the way from England to try out soon.


----------



## grokit

These seem to go for a pretty penny, I wonder how much they are discounting for the floating glass piece inside one of them:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-2A3-FIVRE-ITALY-MONOPLATE-1930s-TEST-PERFECT-1-tube-have-glass-piece-inside-/251047303483?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a7395d93b


----------



## kchew

Quote: 





cacatalysis said:


> Any comments about the B65 in the pictures will be appreciated.  I am told by the seller that these are better than other Marconi/Osram metal base, smoky glass B65s.


 
   
  I had a pair recently until one tube started humming badly and had to get a refund. But for the short time that I tried them, I was quite impressed. Midrange was sweet and treble, while on the bright side, was not fatiguing. Surprisingly, I enjoyed the bass the most, despite most people saying they are bass shy. It is very tight with good punch and depth and great detail. Soundstaging was average however, and prices these days are outrageous. How much was the seller asking for?


----------



## rosgr63

cacatalysis, well done they are very nice tubes indeed.
  They have cathode boil off marks which means they will be very strong when you test them.
   
  I can't say if they are better than the smoked glass equivalents as it's been a long time since I did ABX tests.
  Amongst the B65 family my favorites are the QA2408 at the minute.
   
  I agree with kchew's comments.
  I too had a similar NIB tube with a dead section recently. 
   
  Let us know what you think of them when you get them.


----------



## cacatalysis

kchew and rosg63, Thanks for your impressions and comments.  These are not a pair, tested as 85% and 65%, respectively.  The seller is somebody I can trust.  The asking price is $700 for both.  I am looking for one B65 for my incoming BA.  I am told the life time of B65 are in the order of 15000 hours, and they should have plenty of life left.


----------



## rosgr63

Is there a tube that can replace the 6SN7?
   
  Well maybe, currently under tests by Bruno my French Tube Guru.
   
  More info will be provide in this and the  http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studios-appreciation-thread
   
*Tube on Bruno's amp.*


----------



## Silent One

So, with the glass obscured by the tube damper... what lies beneath?


----------



## Oskari

There is sufficient information in the photo...


----------



## rosgr63

I always leave a clue!
   
  Oskari, I removed the clue for now until I have the adapters and try it for myself first.


----------



## Silent One

12AX7 perhaps?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I always leave a clue!
> 
> Oskari, I removed the clue for now until I have the adapters and try it for myself first.


 
   
  Ooh, mysterious!


----------



## grokit




----------



## liamstrain

Looks taller ... 6CG7 or ECL82?


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





liamstrain said:


> Looks taller ... 6CG7 or ECL82?


 
   
  I think you got it with the 6CG7.  If so, it is funny since I went the other way in my AVA Hybrid DAC which takes 6CG7.  With adapters I am using 6SN7s.


----------



## Skylab

I know, but I am not allowed to say


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob, we are not ready yet.
   
  Oskari please don't say anything yet, I am sure you know.
   
  SO Liam and David they are not 12AX7 or 6CG7 type tubes, we have covered those a few months ago in this thread.


----------



## Neogeo333

12bh7 perhaps?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> 12bh7 perhaps?


 
   
  Good guess.
  One more clue they are directly equivalent, they have a 6.3 heater voltage.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I found a couple of families of tubes that looked close in my search for datasheets, but if you say it is an exact replacement then the amplification factor and plate voltage would have to be the same and these were slightly different.  So I'll have to wait for the reveal to be in the know.


----------



## Neogeo333

The only tube close enough in my stash that look like a 12bh7 is a e80cc by Siemens.


----------



## cacatalysis

My question is simple, could anybody educate me about the mullard ECC33 in the picture, what is the significance for the military code with arrow.


----------



## kchew

"CV" stands for "Common Valve", while the arrow is a government mark. http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm
   
  Those ECC33s look sweet. I have a pair with black base, and in my WA22 they sound very similar to the ECC32 in a smaller package.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I found a couple of families of tubes that looked close in my search for datasheets, but if you say it is an exact replacement then the amplification factor and plate voltage would have to be the same and these were slightly different.  So I'll have to wait for the reveal to be in the know.


 
   
  In the loose sense of the word, I mean they don't need any diodes or resistors in the base.
  Sorry if I've been misleading you.


----------



## Blackmore

I love my, but make sure your amp can take them, cos they are not direct 6SN7 replacements. They are smooth ( not dull ), midrange focused with great extention, very good tubes.
   




   
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





cacatalysis said:


> My question is simple, could anybody educate me about the mullard ECC33 in the picture, what is the significance for the military code with arrow.


----------



## rosgr63

cacatalysis if you can look for the Black Base Yellow Label ECC33's
   
  Blackmore beautiful photo, but I can't see your new PS1000.........


----------



## Blackmore

Only because you asked for This one from the last mini meet, sorry for the quality, was made using iPhone, not my, Henk's.
   





  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Blackmore beautiful photo, but I can't see your new PS1000.........


----------



## cacatalysis

Thanks everybody.  I am thinking of getting a ECC35 short brown base first.  Can't have everything at the same time.


----------



## Skylab

I'm sure you know this, but the ECC35 is closest to a 6SL7, not to 6SN7.


----------



## cacatalysis

Bob, Thanks for the reminder.  The BA is a "terrible amp" for the wallet, especially after mods to accommodate PX25s.  I also found out with an adapter, AD1 can also be used.  
   
  I just purchased a B65 clear glass.  I would love to hear your impressions of the clear glass vs smoke glass.


----------



## rosgr63

cacatalysis you're becoming an addict fast, watch it!
   
  Very nice amp and tubes, well done.


----------



## Skylab

Ahhhh...yes.  The BA allows a huge tube list - I'm sure that is very bad for the wallet!
   
  I have mostly preferred the tall glass, short base ECC35 and ECC33.  The short brown base ECC35 you were considering getting is a truly excellent sounding tube, and was my very favorite to use as a 6SL7, back when the phono preamp I was using was 6SL7 based.
   
  Just a hint, I could probably be talked out of a short brown base ECC35 for a pretty reasonable price...


----------



## cacatalysis

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> cacatalysis you're becoming an addict fast, watch it!
> 
> Very nice amp and tubes, well done.


 
  Your last sentence does not help.  Kiertijai just told me ECC35 is the best to listen to my favorite violinist.  I am also offered both the short brown and black 91940 vintage) versions of ECC35.  What a combined influence!


----------



## rosgr63

The ECC35 are nice sounding tubes, make sure you get some strong ones.


----------



## kiertijai

This is the Barium Pill New Telefunken AD1 .   Dear Li  if you can get one pair at 1000$ grasp them.  If you don't want them I can give you
  10% of that value for the seller's information


----------



## kiertijai

This is your steal of the PX25 equivalent tubes (M.P. Pedersen U4E8) for your new BA (less than 1K) with tungsol 6SU7GTY
  sorry for the " not so nice" pictures

   
  and if you wallet is big enough I am delighted to tell you that the BA can also use these tubes (TFK brand),
  have fun but please work hard too


----------



## Skylab

If we are talking 6SL7's, I think the Tung Sol 6SU7GTY (black glass round plate) is really the 6SL7 I liked the best of them all.


----------



## rosgr63

I would add the TS BGRP VT-229 to the list of nice inexpensive 6SL7 type tubes.


----------



## kiertijai

Stavros recommended this 6SU7GTY some time ago and I fell in love with them using this tube
  with BA and LCD3.  BTW I got this 6SL7 from a seller in exchange for a dead tube,  he did not know
  which 6SL7GT ?    I played in the BA and it is quite good with the LCD3.  What is the brand of this 6SL7GT, thanks


----------



## cacatalysis

As you know I have no choice but to work extremely hard now.  My set of Pedersen is still set quitely in the "original box".
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> This is your steal of the PX25 equivalent tubes (M.P. Pedersen U4E8) for your new BA (less than 1K) with tungsol 6SU7GTY
> sorry for the " not so nice" pictures
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> Stavros recommended this 6SU7GTY some time ago and I fell in love with them using this tube
> with BA and LCD3.  BTW I got this 6SL7 from a seller in exchange for a dead tube,  he did not know
> which 6SL7GT ?    I played in the BA and it is quite good with the LCD3.  What is the brand of this 6SL7GT, thanks


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the nice comments dear Kiertijai.
  I always try to recommend value for money tubes.
  I am guilty for buying some very expensive tubes but it doesn't mean I would recommend them.
  This is part of the addiction!


----------



## kiertijai

The  price of the 6SU7GTY's was not high comparing to the Tungsol BGRP (which is now more than 400$/pair)
  but the price has gone up more , now I have seen around 300$+
  I was fortunate enough to get 2 pairs at the time with good price
  Now it's the time that I will collect Tungsol VT229


----------



## Skylab

Indeed they have gone way up in price. I was able to buy them for a while in NOS for $25 a PAIR!


----------



## sridhar3

Anybody have any experience with Raytheon 6SN7GT/VT-231 black base orange print?  I know there are a few different types (T plates, ladder plates, etc.), but any comparisons to Sylvania VT-231, Sylvania 6SN7W and TS BGRP would be appreciated.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





9pintube said:


> Does anyone find the VT-231 to be a little microphonic?


 
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Every Ken Rad 6SN7 I ever owned was very microphonic. I thought it was bad luck, but now I'm not so sure.


 
   
  Quote: 





blairfrischx said:


> I also own one. It is indeed very microphonic.


 
   
  Yup!  They would make the ultimate door bell.  You just look at them and they ring.
   
  Quote: 





blackmore said:


> Is it possible that this may depends on amp?


 
   
  Nope.  If it did I would consider another amp perhaps.


----------



## rosgr63

Raytheon talk, here is an experimental 6SN7GT


----------



## Xcalibur255

Meaning it's an engineering prototype?  What a unique find if that is the case.  I've never heard the t-plate Raytheons, but the ladder plate military tubes are quite good.  Sort of boring I must confess, at least in my opinion, but at a technical level they perform very well.  I have a GTB Raytheon, at least I'm pretty sure it's Raytheon (it's branded Traveler), with an unusual getter that is attached to the side of one of the plates.  I didn't think much of it at first listen, but when I took the time to really play some music through it I was blown away at how good it sounds in terms of speed, detail, and control.  The bass is amazingly taut and it has what may be the best dynamics of any 6SN7 I've heard.  Definitely the opposite of romantic, and I didn't find the tone quite to my liking but it still wasn't bad.  Proof positive that there are some good finds amongst the GTB tubes that go overlooked.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Raytheon talk, here is an experimental 6SN7GT


 
   
  Whoa, cool.  Is that in your possession? How does it sound?
   
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Meaning it's an engineering prototype?  What a unique find if that is the case.  I've never heard the t-plate Raytheons, but the ladder plate military tubes are quite good.  Sort of boring I must confess, at least in my opinion, but at a technical level they perform very well.  I have a GTB Raytheon, at least I'm pretty sure it's Raytheon (it's branded Traveler), with an unusual getter that is attached to the side of one of the plates.  I didn't think much of it at first listen, but when I took the time to really play some music through it I was blown away at how good it sounds in terms of speed, detail, and control.  The bass is amazingly taut and it has what may be the best dynamics of any 6SN7 I've heard.  Definitely the opposite of romantic, and I didn't find the tone quite to my liking but it still wasn't bad.  Proof positive that there are some good finds amongst the GTB tubes that go overlooked.


 
   
  Thank you for the impressions.  I'll keep them in mind as I'm shopping for a Raytheon.


----------



## rosgr63

The tube is in my possession and it sounds very good.
   
  It's actually a working prototype.
   
  The side getter tubes are either GTA or GTB, FIVRE been my preference of that style.
   

   
  Here is the Raytheon GTB


----------



## Xcalibur255

Indeed it is, the picture matches my Traveler tube.  The GTB tubes I have heard have always been underwhelming, but this one is a bit of a sleeper if you ask me.


----------



## Skylab

NMV...


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





skylab said:


> NMV...


 
  You got me all excited!


----------



## Radio_head

Ya sorry about that guys.  I'll only need one ECC32 for the BA so the other one may be free for half what I paid for the pair.  I just bought a TS 6SN7 GT BGRP as well so it should be fun to compare.  The BA is so ridiculously good.


----------



## rosgr63

Best keep your ECC32 for stock, if you like the sound that is.
   
  The adapters of the 6SN7 "killer" have arrived, testing will start soon!


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The adapters of the 6SN7 "killer" have arrived, testing will start soon!


----------



## Radio_head

Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif


> Best keep your ECC32 for stock, if you like the sound that is.


 
  Yep that's what I decided to do after a week with the pairing.  Still really like the BGRP but I'm only using it in the BA if both my ECC32's crap out.
   
  Now for a matched quad for the Electra...


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Revelation time:
   
  It's the ECC40.
   
  Currently amp testing a Tungsram, doesn't sound too bad.


----------



## Skylab

Very cool,Stavros. That will be fun to play with.

It doesn't look like ECC40's are super cheap, though. $130/pair for Siemens...


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob, yes indeed.
  The price depends on the getter, the usual story.
  I got a SIEMENS NIB for $7 and a sealed one for $18.
  Can never tell with ebay.


----------



## Skylab

Nice. Will have to keep my eyes open. Is there a US equivalent? It doesn't seem like there is a direct US type.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dannie01

Does anyone knows how these tubes sound, thanks? I found it on a local forum and they cost about $600/pair 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, very costly but look attractive.


----------



## Silent One

They look like Metal based Osram's! I read that website from time-to-time, by the way....


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





silent one said:


> They look like Metal based Osram's! I read that website from time-to-time, by the way....


 
   
  The seller said it's Brimar.


----------



## musicman59

Does anybody know if the BL63 can be use and fit in the WA5-LE?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I believe it - I've seen Metal based versions of Mullard-Brimar-Osram all kind of looking alike.


----------



## kchew

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Does anyone knows how these tubes sound, thanks? I found it on a local forum and they cost about $600/pair
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  They look very similar to my MOV B65, my impressions are at http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/2175#post_8364705
   
  At that price they are not good value, unless you're a collector...


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





kchew said:


> They look very similar to my MOV B65, my impressions are at http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/2175#post_8364705
> 
> At that price they are not good value, unless you're a collector...


 
   
  Thanks kchew.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Nice. Will have to keep my eyes open. Is there a US equivalent? It doesn't seem like there is a direct US type.


 
   
  Were there any US rimlock tubes?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





silent one said:


> I believe it - I've seen Metal based versions of Mullard-Brimar-Osram all kind of looking alike.


 
   
  You shouldn't. Z = MOV, Hammersmith. (And there are no true Mullard equivalents.)


----------



## rosgr63

Skylab & Oskari they were made in Europe only as far as I know.
   
  Danny as Kchew and Oskari pointed out they are MOV B65 clear glass.
  I have some labelled as Osram, Brimar and Chelmer.
   
  Make sure they are tested or the seller has a return policy.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'll admit to my untrained eye and looking at the exterior only, I'll offer "kind of looking a like." Not that they do. The Osram to me kind of looked like dannie01's example. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Inside the glass, however, I have no idea.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Revelation time:
> 
> It's the ECC40.
> 
> Currently amp testing a Tungsram, doesn't sound too bad.


 
   
  They don't sound like 6CG7s I hope?  Obviously these are 8 pin...


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





silent one said:


> The Osram to me kind of looked like dannie01's example.


 
   
  Certainly. The O in M-O Valve (MOV) came from Osram. Osram was a GEC brand (in UK), and MOV was originally a Marconi-GEC joint venture.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I appreciate the teaching moment. This thread is a good place to be.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Were there any US rimlock tubes?


 
   
  Ahhhh...probably not.  Never even heard of such a thing until now, so thanks for that!  That's what the base on this tube is about?  It's not mentioned in the datasheet, that I could find.
   
  http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ecc40.pdf
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Skylab & Oskari they were made in Europe only as far as I know.


 
   
  Got it.  Thanks Stavros.  Will look forward to more comments from you on the sound.


----------



## rosgr63

There are different B65 getters, wire and inverted cup.
   
  BTW you don't have to use a Rimlock base but a B8A type without the lock.
  As long as you are careful there should be no problem.
   
  Here is the original rimlock base, Philips were the inventors.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Skylab & Oskari they were made in Europe only as far as I know.


 
   
  Probably so.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is an experimental 1579


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That's what the base on this tube is about?  It's not mentioned in the datasheet, that I could find.
> 
> http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ecc40.pdf


 
   
  That was cut from a chapter called _Miscellaneous Rimlock type amplifying valves_ in Book IIIa of the Philips Technical Library Series on Electronic Valves (http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/SeriesOnElectronTubes.html). That's why.
   
  The word rimlock appears in the typical Philips datasheet (http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/030/e/ECC40.pdf).


----------



## mrAdrian

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TUBES-X-12-6SN7-GT-GTA-MINIWATT-RADIOTRON-ALL-TEST-GOOD-/130710443315?pt=AU_Electronics_Vintage_Electronics&hash=item1e6ef31533#ht_918wt_1396
   
  Should I take the bullet? How many of the 12 are 'good' ones and how many of them are nothing special ones?
   
  EDIT: and this one, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TUBES-X-3-6SN7GT-BRIMAR-UK-X-2-HALTRON-UK-X-1-ALL-GOOD-TUBES-/130709928359?pt=AU_Electronics_Vintage_Electronics&hash=item1e6eeb39a7#ht_882wt_1396
   
  What would be a fair price for them :S


----------



## rosgr63

From the first batch the Trigon is USSR made, but it's not a bad selection with some black ladder plates, T-plates tubes and GTB variants.
  I would say around $120 would be a good price.
   
  The second batch includes a couple of Brimar so they might sell as high even higher than the first batch.
   
  Good Luck!


----------



## mrAdrian

I just hope no one sees it now >< so if you are bidding and if you are in this thread, please TT


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks for the great thread. I'm new to tubes since I picked up my Woo Audio WA22 a couple of months ago. I've been thrilled with it since then, especially as I've rolled tubes, which have really helped it too sing. I'm currently using Sophia Princess 274b rectifier, Sylvania 7236 power, and a couple different driver tubes.

The main driver tubes I am using is RCA JAN vt231 smoke glass, and Sylvania mid 1950's 6sn7gta chrome top. I am liking both quite a bit as they very warm and smooth mids, and nice soundstage and separation. My question is whether there is much separation between these driver tubes and some of the more expensive and coveted ones. In particular, I am curious about 1940s JAN Sylvania vt231, the brown base Sylvania 6sn7wgta, and Tung Sol BGRP 6sn7.

I would appreciate it if anyone has had my current driver tubes and some of those I am considering. If so, are the pricier ones I'm considering significantly better or am I hitting diminishing returns mostly? 

I know this vague and opened ended, but any feedback would be appreciated!


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the complements Sid-Fi.
  A thread is as good as the contributors and luckily we have some great ones here in Head-Fi.
  This is a good opportunity to say thanks to all the people who post and/or read the thread.
   
  The Sylvania VT-231 is more neutral than the others you've mentioned.
  The Sylvania 6SN7WGTA Brown Base will be close to the Sylvania 6SN7GTA, and the Tung Sol 6SN7 BGRP different from all of them.
   
  I like the RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass a lot.
   
  I am not sure you'll get value for money when it comes to the TS 6SN7 BGRP unless you can get them cheap (less than $100 each).
  If you can borrow some to try it would be nice before you spend a lot of money.


----------



## Skylab

I also like the grey-glass RCA a lot. This is an underrated tube in some ways, although they do not sell for super-cheap, so they must be well regarded in some other circles. But I think they sound terrific. I have a really nice NOS quad in original military boxes I have been saving for the right occasion


----------



## Sid-Fi

Interesting timing - what irony.

A local head-fi'er stepped up and lent me his TS BGRP yesterday hours after my post.

After just a couple of hours with them, my take is that they are more well-rounded and balanced overall, as well as just a tad more refined, compared to my main driver tubes - Sylvania 6SN7GTA, and RCA VT231. 

Here is what I mean. The Sylvania have flat out awesome mids and lovely treble. Everything has a nice polished, warm, smooth sound. It really pulls me in and immerses me in the music. However, the bass is notably recessed to my ears and makes quartet style jazz sound a tad off with upright bass being much quieter than I would expect in real life. In comparison to the Sylvania, the TS BGRP have a much fuller presentation with very pronounced and articulate bass. The same quartet jazz CDs showcase the uprighht bass more realistically as a prominent part of the music. However, it gives up a touch of that truly lovely and immersive warmth - still good, but with a tad more analytical take.

I was very pleased to find that my RCA VT231 smoke glass have very similar warm, and engaging mids like the Sylvania, but add more bass presence and impact to the presentation. This makes them a pretty awesome all-around tube which I now definitely prefer over the Sylvania, although it took many A/B comparisons. Comparing the TS BGRP to the RCA smoke glass, they actually seem fairly close to each other. The main difference is that the TS BGRP is a little more resolving and refined to my ears. However, it still gives up that layer of warmth and musicality to the RCA. In other words, the TS BGRP seems the technical champion. That being said, I can't say yet that I prefer them to the RCA. It's just hard to give up that smooth polished touch they add.

Thanks for the comments Rosgr63 and Skylab. I would be interested to hear if my impressions match yours or differ. 

This has been indeed been a great thread that I have learned a lot from. As a beginner to tubes, this thread and the 6SN7 Reference thread have been awesome and have helped me to get my bearings. Cheers.


----------



## Silent One

I absolutely adore Paris, perhaps all of France, perhaps all things French... wait,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  wrong thread. "6SN7 Tube Addicts?" Yes, I absolutely love my Tung-Sol Black Glass Round Plate drive tubes! However, it took me a good month and perhaps some days after, before I learned to appreciate them.
   
_Not so fast. _First thing I noticed upon listening is that they were extremely selective over what rectifier was in the power supply - unforgiving! I found that they paired better with my outgoing EML 5U4G than the newly arrived USAF-596 inside my Woo. The EML Glass was shipped out the very next morning. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So, wrestle I did, trying to make the new dance partners work - the 596/VT-231 couple kept stepping on each other's toes. Finally, a Digital cable change resolved the pairing - went from a 1.0 Meter to 1.5 Meter Digital Coax cable.
   
  Now, all is well inside the listening room, Sid-Fi, we're jamming with the TS-BGRP's.


----------



## rosgr63

Hello Sid-Fi,
   
  Pleased to be of a little help.
  I learn a new thing about tubes every day, I have a long way to go still.
   
  Your description is excellent.
   
  I would like to suggest the Tung-Sol 6F8G Round Plates Black Glass as another cheaper but as good alternative.
  You'll need some 6F8G to 6SN7 adapters but then a new type of tubes will be available for you to try.
   
*EDIT*
  SO it's all about system synergy.
  This is what I am finding out with the ECC40 which are even more system dependent.


----------



## Silent One

System synergy...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 absolutely with you on that one!


----------



## Skylab

Sid-Fi, I agree with Stavros, your description of those tubes seems right on to me. Well done.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Hello Sid-Fi,
> 
> Pleased to be of a little help.
> I learn a new thing about tubes every day, I have a long way to go still.
> ...


 
  I have both the TS RPBG 6SN7 and the TS RPBG 6F8G tubes. I personally prefer the sound of the 6F8G in my WA5-LE with the EMl 300B Mesh and 596. Right now I am using a pair of Emerson RPBG that I am almost positive are Tungsol rebranded and got them quite cheap and sound fantastic. AI also have Raytheon RPGG and some Sylvania flat plates greay glass. Even those sound really good. In general I think I am liking the sound of the 6F8G tubes over the 6SN7.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Well, it looks like I am in the right thread. For being so new, I have already acquired and tried a pair of 6F8G tubes, and adapters from Woo Audio as well. I must share this addiction passion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The tubes shown below that I have are Tung Sol black glass rib plate 6F8G. They struck me as very similar to the 6SN7 round plates. However, where the 6SN7 are just a tad more analytical, my rib plates are noticabely more so - enough so that I have not hardly swapped them in at all. I imagine that the round plate version would be noticably improved in this area from what I have read. I'd love to try a couple of other 6F8G. Another issue is that I seem to have settled on the Sophia Princess 274B mesh plate rectifier. Due its huge size, it picks up a touch of noise from the wire adapters.
   
  I also picked up a United Electronics 596 rectifier, which isn't quite as large and wide (I'll paste a pic as well). I'll have to try it with my 6F8G as soon as I get an adapter made for it.
   

   
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Hello Sid-Fi,
> 
> Pleased to be of a little help.
> I learn a new thing about tubes every day, I have a long way to go still.
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I have both the TS RPBG 6SN7 and the TS RPBG 6F8G tubes. I personally prefer the sound of the 6F8G in my WA5-LE with the EMl 300B Mesh and 596. Right now I am using a pair of Emerson RPBG that I am almost positive are Tungsol rebranded and got them quite cheap and sound fantastic. AI also have Raytheon RPGG and some Sylvania flat plates greay glass. Even those sound really good. In general I think I am liking the sound of the 6F8G tubes over the 6SN7.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks Skylab. It's nice to know that I'm hearing things similarly to you veterans. I appreciate the feedack. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Sid-Fi, I agree with Stavros, your description of those tubes seems right on to me. Well done.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Well, it looks like I am in the right thread. For being so new, I have already acquired and tried a pair of 6F8G tubes, and adapters from Woo Audio as well. I must share this addiction passion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  While you wait for an adapter for your USAF-596, you may want to take the opportunity to clean its pins first. My long orphaned but now happily adopted rectifier deserves the best!


----------



## dannie01

Does anyone ever tried the GEC BL63/6F8G, they look very nice but quite pricey. I want to try it out with the WA5LE, thanks for your advise in advance.


----------



## rosgr63

Danny the BL63 is not compatible with the 6F8G/6SN7.
  Make sure your amp can handle it.


----------



## dannie01

Oops I see, thanks Stavros.


----------



## rosgr63

You are most welcome Danny.
  I know some sellers say thy are, but they aren't really.


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TUBES-X-12-6SN7-GT-GTA-MINIWATT-RADIOTRON-ALL-TEST-GOOD-/130710443315?pt=AU_Electronics_Vintage_Electronics&hash=item1e6ef31533#ht_918wt_1396
> 
> Should I take the bullet? How many of the 12 are 'good' ones and how many of them are nothing special ones?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> From the first batch the Trigon is USSR made, but it's not a bad selection with some black ladder plates, T-plates tubes and GTB variants.
> I would say around $120 would be a good price.
> 
> The second batch includes a couple of Brimar so they might sell as high even higher than the first batch.
> ...


 
   
  The first one went to $99, but I didn't try to bid it because that's a bit too much for me to pay for...
   
  The second one however was only $51 and it was by me  Now have anyone heard about the miniwatt Australia?


----------



## rosgr63

Well done you were very lucky.
   
  I have some but they are nothing special IMHO.


----------



## mrAdrian

Right, as expected.
   
  I remember you mentioned black ladder plates, T-plates tubes and GTB variants
   
  I'll take pictures of them once they arrive, and post them here so I get educated on them haha!


----------



## rosgr63

Don't get me wrong, I think you'll be more than happy with this selection which is a very good starting point.
  I can see some nice tubes there.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Danny the BL63 is not compatible with the 6F8G/6SN7.
> Make sure your amp can handle it.


 
   
  Stavros is right. I checked with Jack and he said the WA5 or WA5-LE wil have to be nodified in order to be able to use the BL63 tubes.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *musicman59* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Stavros is right. I checked with Jack and he said the WA5 or WA5-LE wil have to be nodified in order to be able to use the BL63 tubes.


 
   
  Thanks musicman59, I'm silly enough and wondering 6F8G/BL63 = 6F8G/6SN7. I need to re-read from the beginning and get much close to this thread.


----------



## rosgr63

Danny if you go for the mod make sure you can still use the 6SN7 otherwise I would think about it twice.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Danny if you go for the mod make sure you can still use the 6SN7 otherwise I would think about it twice.


 
   
  No, I won't as I even don't know how to mod, thanks for the remind, Starvos.


----------



## rosgr63

You are welcome Danny.
   
  You might have to install a bigger transformer.........


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> You might have to install a bigger transformer.........


 
   





........................Do you mean I need a new amp with bigger transformer for the BL63/6F8G tubes?


----------



## rosgr63

Just to scare you Danny.
  We don't want you to run away from the 6SN7 camp!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  It's at this point, one pursues another amp to take said tube, and leave the spirit of the current amp intact.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Thanks musicman59, I'm silly enough and wondering 6F8G/BL63 = 6F8G/6SN7. I need to re-read from the beginning and get much close to this thread.


 
   
  6F8G with an adapter = 6SN7GT ≠ BL63 even with an adapter.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





silent one said:


> It's at this point, one pursues another amp to take said tube, and leave the spirit of the current amp intact.


 
   
  Indeed.


----------



## rosgr63

Oskari please help with these two codes:
   
  Mullard 1185   M8A
   
  Brimar  IC9   384
   
  Thanks


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Oskari please help with these two codes:


 
   
  I can give you some references.
   


> Mullard 1185   M8A


 
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts/45#post_7708374
   
  This is a Mullard code used prior to adopting the common Philips codes.
   


> Brimar  IC9   384


 
   
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g8hqp/audio/brimarcodes.html
http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread/165#post_5000437
   
  Is that 1C9? That's in WMY format.


----------



## grokit

How about Sylvania E6B ?


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





grokit said:


> How about Sylvania E6B ?


 
   
  The seller says the date code is E6B (on top), but the 6SN7 ID guide says the dates are indicated by the stacked numbers on the side of the base(?):
   
  96
  44
  84
   
  It's a 6SN7GTB, black bases with green lettering and chrome tops. Google hasn't been of much help so far.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> I can give you some references.
> 
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts/45#post_7708374
> ...


 
   
  Thanks Oskari, I think the right codes are 1185 M8A and 1C9 384, that would make sense.
   
*EDIT*
   
  The Brimar would be 1st Week *(1)* of March *(C) *1949 or 1959 *(9)*
  It has a ring "O" type getter which was used in the early production years.
   
  The Mullard is probably Eindhoven 1948 or 1951, as the getter is flat tray early version


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The seller says the date code is E6B (on top), but the 6SN7 ID guide says the dates are indicated by the stacked numbers on the side of the base(?):
> 
> 96
> 44
> ...


 
   
  There are tubes with this kind of code on the glass dome.
  I have not been able to figure it out yet.
   
  I too rely on our experts for help.
   
  Bendix 6080 for example use BXXX, CXXX, DXXX code system


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The Mullard is probably Eindhoven


 
   
  Why do you think it is a Philips-made tube?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The seller says the date code is E6B (on top)


 
   
  Unfortunately this type of code and the 2- and 3-letter codes also used by Sylvania are poorly understood.
   


> 96
> 44
> 84


 
   
  This could be a RETMA/EIA code: 948 = manufacturer, 644 = YWW date. Somewhat problematic because 948 seems to be The Radix Wire Company.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Why do you think it is a Philips-made tube?


 
   
  The confusing factory code M*8*A, 8 is Eindhoven, which makes no sense for a very early Mullard tube.


----------



## Skylab

Stavros, you are certain it is an 8, and not a B? A "B" for Mullard Blackburn would make much more sense


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob, it's an S for sure, just double checked, the full code is 1185 MSA.
  Is this an ECC32 made in Barcelona?
  I have another ECC32 with the code 1185 MBA.
   
  It's a very early ECC32 with this type of getter:


----------



## Oskari

I would just take that those are Mullard tubes. Don't try to look for factory codes.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> I would just take that those are Mullard tubes. Don't try to look for factory codes.


 
   
  Hi Oskari, thanks for keeping me sane!
   
  I'm going through my Mullards, I can see MLA, FO, J3, L2 and so on.........
   
  Best watch football for a bit to clear my head.
   
  BTW the experimental Melz 1579 sounds fine.


----------



## Oskari

rosgr63 said:


> Best watch football for a bit to clear my head.


 
   
  Yep. I got bored with UKR-FRA, though, waiting for SWE-ENG.
   


> BTW the experimental Melz 1579 sounds fine.


 
   
  But that's a 6SL7!


----------



## sridhar3

You guys see the whooping Spain put on Ireland yesterday?  That was pretty boss.


----------



## rosgr63

sridhar3 I watch all the games actually.
  I feel sorry for Ireland and Ukraine.
   
  Oskari I can use 6SL7 type tubes with my amps.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> You guys see the whooping Spain put on Ireland yesterday?  That was pretty boss.


 
   
  But the Irish fans kept singing.
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Oskari I can use 6SL7 type tubes with my amps.


 
   
  Ja ja, but this is a 6SN7 thread. Just kidding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  SWE-ENG was entertaining. Happy to see Sweden lose. Not kidding.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Oskari, I know I am bad and a tube addict!


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Hi Oskari, I know I am bad and a tube addict!


 
   
  No Finn is going to support Russia! Go Greece!


----------



## rosgr63

Oskari, I can't believe it.
  Even though the referee was not fair, he didn't give us a penalty!


----------



## sridhar3

Oh wow, Greece won.  Did not expect that.  Congrats!


----------



## Silent One

*Horizons--*
   
  Beyond audio, it's great to see members come together...


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks sridhar3 & SO!
   
  There's more to our passion-hobby-addiction!!!!!!
   
*ECC40 First Report*
   
  So far I have tried a variety of ECC40 with two systems:
   
*System 1*

  MacBook Pro => Optical => CI Audio VDA2+VAC1 => SP PPX3-6SN7 (Glenn Rechnitzer Fixed) (NU 6F8G with Glenn Rechnitzer 6F8G/6SN7 Adapters) => DT880 250Ohm
   
*System 2*
  MacBook Pro => Optical => CI Audio VDA2+VAC1 => SP Extreme (Bolder Fixed) (Raytheon 6AS7G Black Plates) => Grado SR325is
   
*Tubes tried*
  Valvo, Ultron, Telefunken, SEL Lorenz, Siemens, Tungsram, Philips Miniwatt.
  The Long Plate versions of the ECC40 sound the best.
   
*Results System 1*
  The sound is very detailed, clear and dynamic with a nicely controlled bass.
   
*Results System 2*
  I did not like the sound at all, sounded very tinny, horrible.
   
  More tests to follow.


----------



## mrAdrian

All of my 6sn7 orders came through today... omg so many tubes! Chucked in a few one to test (tomorrow is my most difficult subject's final exam for the semester), and this one caught my attention. Didn't do any AB test, but it seems to sound quite brighter compared to my Sylvania~
   

   
  Those should be the right ones. I've got 322NW3 written on the base. What does that mean? Any opinions on their sound?


----------



## rosgr63

Good Luck for tomorrow!
   
  The code 322 is the makers code assigned to Tung Sol.
  The rest are the date code.
   
  I personally like the TS 6SN7GTB, not a bad tube at all.
  I don't find them particularly brighter than some Sylvania, but that is with my system.


----------



## mikey8811

Hi
   
  Can I have some help identifying these Sylvania 6SN7 GT's please? I bought them from an eBay seller with a perfect record but I dealt with him off eBay and they are different from what was pictured - not only that, the tubes seem different so I need to know if I can use them as a pair.
   
  Tube 1 - Pic A (Note: T-plates with 3 holes, getter flashing covers the tube partially, shinier bottom mica and what looks like "teeth" holding it against the glass)
   

   
  Tube 1 - Pic B (date code is scratched off)
   

   
  Tube 1 - Pic C (Note: top stamp says 6SN7 GT and letter code is scratched)
   

   
  Tube 2 - Pic A (Note: T-plates but cannot see number of holes, getter flashing almost covers the entire tube, bottom mica has no teeth, but rounded corners and has a slightly chalky look)
   

   
  Tube 2 - Pic B (Note: vertical date code on the base says 852 - from what I have read it means 1958 Week 52)
   

   
  Tube 2 - Pic C (Note: top stamp says 6SN7 GT and H8A or HBA)
   

   
  I think the seller has been dishonest but there is nothing I can do about it except to see if they can be used as a pair. If not, I would appreciate some help identifying them so I can purchase single tubes to match with them for use (I know this may be a tall order). I had previously (a long while ago) corresponded with Xcalibur who was very helpful and suggested I post them here for further expert help.
   
  Some have suggested that the one with the full getter flashing may be a true chrome dome even though the true chrome domes are supposedly manufactured in 1952 whilst these show 1958 as the year of manufacture.
   
  Your help appreciated in solving the mystery as this has been bugging me.
   
  Thanks
   
  PS. The tubes the seller pictured were:
   
  False Tubes Pic A
   

   
  False Tubes Pic B


----------



## rosgr63

Strictly speaking a matched pair should have identical construction/appearance/date codes and should draw the same current under test.
   
  The results marked are transconductance or emission data and are close.
   
  I dare say you may not have any problems to use them as a pair.
   
  IMHO the seller has been very dishonest.
  Many times I have bought tubes described as NOS/NIB only to find out they were used and tested poor.
  I would definitely write to the seller and complain that they sent you the wrong tubes, and would ask to be exchanged.
  Because you made a private deal doesn't mean you don't have rights.
   
  I would have the tubes retested by someone you trust just in case.


----------



## grokit

Since they test the same, I would put them in and see what they sound like, and then reverse them to see if they sound any different. If they don't, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
  That's what I would do anyways, YMMV 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  edit: whoops I thought I was in the Woo thread for a minute. What amp do you have, is it auto-biasing?


----------



## rosgr63

I would do what grokit suggested, In some systems you may not notice any difference.
   
  However I would definitely have them tested first, better safe than sorry.


----------



## Skylab

It's also a function of what you paid.  If it was a great price, and they test OK, let it go.  If you paid premium pricing, then I might be more inclined to just return them.


----------



## rosgr63

Rob you are right and very wise.
  Sometimes it's not worth the harassment.


----------



## mikey8811

Thanks for all the replies so far. Are they the same tube and of the same construction though?
   
  I have written to the seller but he does not want to take responsibility and exchange them. It was quite a surprise as I had done an on eBay transaction with him which worked out OK and he even refunded me for a tube that was damaged in shipping. I paid full price for them so they weren't exactly cheap.
   
  I had tried them previously and it seemed that the centre image was to one side implying tonal differences.
   
  That was why I was wondering if you guys were able to identify each tube then I could hunt for singles to form a pair (in this case 2 pairs) to make them work.
   
  I am using a Cary SLP 05 preamp.


----------



## dminches

I also have an SLP-05 preamp.  If the tube aren't matched well the soundstage will be skewed to one side.  I just experienced that recently and when I took out one of the pairs of tubes one of them tested poorly.  A fresh pair rectified that.


----------



## rosgr63

OK so the task is clear: to get a couple of tubes to make two matched pairs.
   
  First of all do you know what tester the seller has used so we can establish a test base line?
   
*TUBE 1*
  We can only go by the mica construction and heavy getter flushing.
   
*TUBE 2*
  You are looking for one with 8XX date code, ideally 852 to get the batches as close as possible.
  The getter and smooth lower mica would be the next parts to get right/close.
   
*EDIT*
  David's experience is very important, the tubes must be electrically as close as possible.
  Can you get your pair tested?
  If one is low then that would mean a lot.


----------



## grokit

Who was the seller, it does seem like he tried to get away with being a bit dodgy on this one.


----------



## Xcalibur255

mikey, I'm sure you'd have no trouble using them as a pair so far as safety is concerned so long as the tubes were properly tested.  In terms of matching sonically though I'm afraid they will not.  Your "tube 2" is my personal favorite amongst all 6SN7 tubes I have heard with my own ears.  Balanced but sweet, airy and incredibly precise but not harsh and amazing bass control.  I've grown to like them over the BGRP Tung Sols even.  On the other hand, your "tube 1" will be the same internally as a top getter 6SN7GTA.  There are murky waters around 1952 and 1953 where Sylvania was apparently transitioning some manufacturing lines.  "tube 2" with the heavier getter flash was made on an old line formerly used to make the VT-231 and metal base tubes, and while it is a little different sonically from the famous metal base I do believe it is descended from that tube.  As far as my research could reveal this lineage of Sylvania tubes ended somewhere around 1953 when the line went out of use and around this same time everything started switching over to the GTA designs.  Some tubes were marked GT even though they used the newer GTA plate style, this was just to fulfill orders from customers asking for GT tubes still I imagine.
   
  The confusing part is the date code on tube 2.  I think it is more likely it actually is 1948 rather than 1958 as this type of tube wasn't made past the middle of 1953.  All of the ones I've found or seen were dated 1952 or 1951 but they could certainly be earlier than that.
   
  "tube 1" or the GTA style tube, is in my opinion a decent sounding tube but rather ordinary and somewhat flawed tonally compared to "tube 2".
   
  If I'm wrong about any of this please correct me guys.  These are my own conclusions after digging up as much info as I could on the tube, but as with many things regarding tubes there is plenty of room for error. 
   
  mikey, I personally would return them because they are not going to match tonally, but you could also attempt to find an electrically matching mate for "tube 2" to make a good pair if the price paid was low enough.


----------



## rosgr63

xcalibur the chance of trying to randomly buy a tube and hope it matches electrically the one mikey has could be slim unless he has access to a calibrated tester so he can be sure about the test data.
   
  Indeed tube No 1 looks very much like a GTA, a nice sounding tube in my opinion.


----------



## mikey8811

Hi
   
  Thanks again for all the replies.
   
  The seller used a TV-7 tester.
   
  Rosgr, Tube 2 has the heavy getter flashing (being full) and the chalkier ie. less smooth mica rather than Tube 1. If the date code of 852 is indeed 1948 as Xcalibur suggests, then it would be a real chrome dome and so pretty rare and hard to come by another one for a match?
   
  Tube 1, are you guys thinking that I can get a GTA of similar physical appearance for a match?
   
  Returns are not possible as the seller is being difficult - in fact they were purchased in Sep 2011. I had then gone on a vacation and due to my negligence only followed up when I returned a month later. By then, the Paypal dispute channel was also closed.
   
  Having said that, if I were to hunt for singles on eBay to try and make up the 2 pairs, do you guys think it would be a crapshoot?
   
  Grokit, the seller goes by cfan4 on eBay with the e-mail of unicode@sbcglobal.net and Paypal ID of cfan032009@sbcglobal.net and the name of Clark Fan. I think some members here have bought from him before and my first transaction on eBay did go OK. So if you wish to purchase from him please be careful and above all, do not do an off eBay transaction.


----------



## rosgr63

Mikey I would start fresh and get a matched pair, then watch out for a cheap single GTA.
   
  The chrome dome is a rare tube and getting a match may prove time consuming.


----------



## mrAdrian

I came by this...
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6SN7W-Tubes-NOS-Sylvania-6SN7-W-6-Matched-/150839802832?pt=AU_Electronics_Vintage_Electronics&hash=item231ec0bbd0#ht_500wt_1413
  Anyone got a super7?
   
   
  Hmm Mikey I'm not in this 'addiction' for long and I'm just trying out cheaper tubes for now, but if I were you I might consider selling your singles and purchase a matched pair...


----------



## Xcalibur255

They're not all that terribly rare actually, its just that many people don't discern between the two styles because the differences are subtle.  The seller may have had no malicious intent at all, lots of them honestly believe that all the t-plate Sylvanias sound the same and can be paired without issue. 
   
  You did point out one other fairly reliable way to tell them apart that I forgot to mention:  the micas.  The good ones indeed have a chalky looking appearance while the inferior (in my opinion only) sounding newer variation has a shiny mica that is mostly transparent.


----------



## 563

for what it's worth, while i was in new delhi a couple of months ago, i picked up a Tronix 6SN7GT tube, allegedly never used, with the original box.   Seems like a tall glass but I know squat about this tube (and don't even have a rig for it).  The box says London, England. (handwritten on the bottom of the box is C 73, but this might mean nothing)
   
  Any info on this one?  Assuming it's in good shape, how much is it worth?


----------



## Blackmore

This is re-branded tube, so, by posting an picture we will get the chance to take a closer look at it.
   
  THX
  Quote: 





563 said:


> for what it's worth, while i was in new delhi a couple of months ago, i picked up a Tronix 6SN7GT tube, allegedly never used, with the original box.   Seems like a tall glass but I know squat about this tube (and don't even have a rig for it).  The box says London, England. (handwritten on the bottom of the box is C 73, but this might mean nothing)
> 
> Any info on this one?  Assuming it's in good shape, how much is it worth?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> They're not all that terribly rare actually, its just that many people don't discern between the two styles because the differences are subtle.  The seller may have had no malicious intent at all, lots of them honestly believe that all the t-plate Sylvanias sound the same and can be paired without issue.
> 
> You did point out one other fairly reliable way to tell them apart that I forgot to mention:  the micas.  The good ones indeed have a chalky looking appearance while the inferior (in my opinion only) sounding newer variation has a shiny mica that is mostly transparent.


 
   
  Was the mica with the 4 corner supports used pre 1953?
  I have some 252 dated chrome domes with this kind of chalking looking mica but with the 4 corner supports.
  Would that be newer GTA type production?


----------



## 563

i just took a couple of so-so quality photos with my iphone, but i don't know how to upload them here.  i can pm or post 'em if someone tells me how, but, again, they're not really high quality photos...  thanks!


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





563 said:


> i just took a couple of so-so quality photos with my iphone, but i don't know how to upload them here.


 
   
http://www.head-fi.org/a/image-and-video-tutorial


----------



## 563

message deleted - figured out how to upload photos - thanks oskari - and sorry for the bad quality ....


----------



## 563




----------



## rosgr63

This is a USSR made 6SN7GT.


----------



## Blackmore

Yup, Russians, nice for collection, not sure about the sound.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Could you guys help me distinguish a right Ken-Rad VT-231 tube?
  I know that they should be staggered, not ribbed and that it does(or not) matter if they have clear or coated glass.
  I'm quite new to this and I'm not able to say which one is staggered and if the coated or clear glass matter.
   Is this one the right tube in the link?http://www.ebay.pl/itm/NOS-KEN-RAD-JAN-CKR-6SN7GT-VT-231-VACUUM-TUBE-/221045781766?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item33775af506#ht_500wt_1180
  That one below is probably the one that is right?


----------



## Skylab

VT-231 is simply the US military designation for a 6SN7. If it does not say VT-231 right on it, it technically is not one. However, every VT-231 are completely identical to some 6SN7 labeled tube that was sold in he commercial market, and some military 6SN7's are also not labeled VT-231, as in the picture above.


----------



## 563

thanks.  well, i got it for free, so i didn't lose anything for it   not that i have any real use for it either though!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Was the mica with the 4 corner supports used pre 1953?
> I have some 252 dated chrome domes with this kind of chalking looking mica but with the 4 corner supports.
> Would that be newer GTA type production?


 

 You mean the "teeth" on the bottom mica?  I have some both with and without, even a pair with the same date code.  No difference in sound between them.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> You mean the "teeth" on the bottom mica?  I have some both with and without, even a pair with the same date code.  No difference in sound between them.


 
  Yes, I was wondering if that "toothed" mica was used before 1953.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I have a week 48/1952 pair, one tube has them and the other doesn't.  It seemed like a lot of things were changing around this time with Sylvania manufacturing.
   
  Also, my round plate Tung Sol, or at least one of them, mysteriously stopped being noisy when I tried it tonight.  I have 6AS7s in the amp rather than 5998 which makes me go "hmmmm" but if the problem was microphonics switching to the lower gain output tube should have only lessened the noise not eliminate it.  The Tung Sol is dead silent now, even the pinging from tapping the amp chassis is missing.  I'm baffled and cautiously optimistic.  I'll be putting the 5998 back in soon to see what happens.


----------



## rosgr63

xcalibur, at times I feel tubes are living creatures.
  Sometimes they behave so differently even in the same amp I've yet to find a rational explanation.
  For example a tube that is microphonic one day if I remove it and put is back later it can be free from the microphonic behavior.


----------



## Blackmore

I talk to my tubes all the time.


----------



## Skylab

I have certainly been known to yell at my tubes


----------



## rosgr63

And I thought I was the only one................


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I have a week 48/1952 pair, one tube has them and the other doesn't.  It seemed like a lot of things were changing around this time with Sylvania manufacturing.
> 
> Also, my round plate Tung Sol, or at least one of them, mysteriously stopped being noisy when I tried it tonight.  I have 6AS7s in the amp rather than 5998 which makes me go "hmmmm" but if the problem was microphonics switching to the lower gain output tube should have only lessened the noise not eliminate it.  The Tung Sol is dead silent now, even the pinging from tapping the amp chassis is missing.  I'm baffled and cautiously optimistic. * I'll be putting the 5998 back in soon to see what happens. *


----------



## mikey8811

I tried that errant pair of Sylvania's. One channel was a bit more prominent or maybe it was psychological because I knew they were different tubes. After a while, that didn't bother me too much. Xcalibur, you are right, the Chrome Dome GT is a very nice sounding tube - more resolving with greater inner detail than the NU Black Glass, I had in their place before. Piano notes are more vivid and more right and female vocals have that lilt to them which was engaging although not as warm as the NU's. Trumpet and sax were extended with the right amount of bite but smooth and not edgy - at least so far on the material I heard. I am going to switch the tubes around to see if the channel prominence reverses.
   
  I will try to hunt for GTA's/ GT's to make up a pair for the "not true" Chrome Dome. Does these links have the right tubes?
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/T123-Two-Sylvania-Chrome-Top-6SN7-GTA-Tubes-/120936432890?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c285f84fa
   
  OR
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-three-6SN7-GTA-Tubes-Sylvania-Philco-Bendix-Tested-/160826916403?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item257207fe33
   
  (Seller says date codes are [size=10pt]Bendix - 312 4-52, Philco - 318 53-49, Sylvania - 448)[/size]
   
  [size=10pt]As for the "true" Chrome Dome, do I presume that it will match a GT with the short base where the tube construction is clearly shown above the top of the base, with a heavy getter flashing although not full like the one I have, a chalky capsule shaped mica with or without teeth? See links below:[/size]
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sylvania-6SN7-GT-Black-Plates-Stereo-Tube-/180902550423?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a1ea1db97
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Chrome-Sylvania-6SN7-GT-Stereo-Tube-04t-/180897299470?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a1e51bc0e
   
  Thanks


----------



## rosgr63

I would personally buy tubes with test results.
  "Tests Good" doesn't mean much to me.
   
  Lori (greengirl613) is a first class seller, and will look after you if anything goes wrong.


----------



## dminches

Ditto that on Lori.  And her prices are very fair.


----------



## Skylab

I too have had only very good experiences with her. Highly recommended seller.


----------



## musicman59

Where can she be found?


----------



## dminches

Not telling...
   
   
   
   
  ....greengirl613 on ebay


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Not telling...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  You should have charged for your info David.
   
  There are some nice very rare 6SN7 now on sale if anybody is interested please PM me.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Could you guys help me a bit?
   
 Which one of those is better ? It is going to be my first tube so that's why they are not the pricey ones. If any of those twice aren't good then could you recommend me any other for max 30 $?
 [size=x-small]*[size=small]6SN7GT Tung-Sol Short bottle clear glass [/size]*[/size]
 [size=x-small][size=small]*  *Clear glass tube with square plates[/size][/size]
  
 [size=x-small][size=small]*6SN7GT Tung-Sol clear glass*
   Clear glass tube with round mica spacers (mouse ears) at top[/size][/size]


----------



## rosgr63

The mouse ears Tung Sol is an excellent tube for me and one of my favorites.
   
  Ask if the base has a crack as they often do.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





nomatterwhat said:


> Could you guys help me a bit?
> 
> Which one of those is better ? It is going to be my first tube so that's why they are not the pricey ones. If any of those twice aren't good then could you recommend me any other for max 30 $?
> [size=x-small]*[size=small]6SN7GT Tung-Sol Short bottle clear glass [/size]*[/size]
> ...


 

 If they're both t-plate then they'll sound exactly the same.  I'd get which ever one is in better condition.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I would personally buy tubes with test results.
> "Tests Good" doesn't mean much to me.
> 
> Lori (greengirl613) is a first class seller, and will look after you if anything goes wrong.


 

 I'd been wondering about that seller.  Test results are often printed in Gm but the values always seemed off (way too high) to me so I had been cautious.  She must have a tester that reads on its own proprietary scale.


----------



## grokit

I am also pleased with the chromedomes, this is the pair I got in recently:
   

   
  They are in NOS condition, and both micas appear to be shiny.
   
  I haven't made a full evaluation yet, but paired with the GEC 6AS7G and my PSVANE 274B they sound quite nice through the HD800. I need to switch the Treasures back in to be certain, but my early impression is that they are quite good at getting out of the way. There seems to be another level of transparency available, but as I said some variables need to be worked out as I am also breaking in a new usb-spdif converter.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I'd been wondering about that seller.  Test results are often printed in Gm but the values always seemed off (way too high) to me so I had been cautious.  She must have a tester that reads on its own proprietary scale.


 
   
  I am not sure what scale she is using.  However, everything I have gotten from her has been well matched and the gms have been strong as compared to similar tubes.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Now you and Xcalibur255 have got me curious... just what scale IS she using? Perhaps, one of you will ask.


----------



## mikey8811

Xcalibur, one seller has reported that the micas, while capsule shaped and with teeth are "[size=10pt]semi clear that I can see thru". The date codes on these GTA's are [/size][size=medium]3/26 and 3/39.[/size]
   
  Would they match Tube 1 ie. the "not true" Chrome Dome?


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I am also pleased with the chromedomes


 
   
  Glad to hear it.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mikey8811 said:


> Xcalibur, one seller has reported that the micas, while capsule shaped and with teeth are "[size=10pt]semi clear that I can see thru". The date codes on these GTA's are [/size][size=medium]3/26 and 3/39.[/size]
> 
> Would they match Tube 1 ie. the "not true" Chrome Dome?


 

 I believe so, but if you are buying a pair it doesn't correct your original problem.  I think the others' advice is good:  trying to chase down a single tube to match the one you have is not a good idea unless you have your own tube tester to confirm the matching.  Better to just buy what you need already matched in your case.
   
  There is some risk in this game, and lots of misinformation so being prepared for a disappointment or two is part of it all IMO.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> There is some risk in this game, and lots of misinformation so being prepared for a disappointment or two is part of it all IMO.


 
   
  Very well said, best to be prepared for all eventualities.


----------



## redcat2

Well i would just like to say hello, i have read this thread from begging to end on more than one occasion it has been very help full to me in purchasing valves, here are two which i like the most would be the Ken Rad VT321 & the Tung-sol rabbit ears, some pics attached will have to get my camera out taken with my phone.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Good find on the tung sols.  The yellow print/black base version is less common, those look like the older pre 1950 version when they first replaced the round plates.
   
  edit:  sorry I meant black plate, not black base.


----------



## Blackmore

Black plates
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Gold pins
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> Well i would just like to say hello, i have read this thread from begging to end on more than one occasion it has been very help full to me in purchasing valves, here are two which i like the most would be the Ken Rad VT321 & the Tung-sol rabbit ears, some pics attached will have to get my camera out taken with my phone.


----------



## redcat2

Hi,You seem to be good at this stuff Blackmore i am trying to identify this tube in the photo i no it is a 6SJ7GT but what make is it please any one no? It has some markings on it put i can not tell.


----------



## rosgr63

I think there is a color cast.
  All tubes seem to have gold pins.


----------



## Blackmore

Looks Chinese made to me, but I am not sure, maybe Russian as well.
   
   
  Quote: 





redcat2 said:


> Hi,You seem to be good at this stuff Blackmore i am trying to identify this tube in the photo i no it is a 6SJ7GT but what make is it please any one no? It has some markings on it put i can not tell.


----------



## Skylab

I have never seen a mesh-shield 6SJ7 from China or Russia, so I do not think it is those. Hitachi in Japan made mesh-shield 6SJ7's. These were intended to "copy" the excellent Tung-Sol mesh-shield 6SJ7. 

I can't really make out the writing from that picture. Is it English ? Can you show the other side?

I have several dozen different 6SJ7 types, so I may be able to indenting fully if you show a few more/better pics.


----------



## redcat2

Hi,Yes the writing is in English all it says what is left of the writing is, FOA and below that made, here is two more pics front and back.


----------



## Skylab

Honestly that looks exactly like the Tung-sol to me. Is there a "322" on the tube either on the very top or on the base somewhere ?


----------



## redcat2

Hi,no nothing on the top and the bottom of the tube is, Licensed to extent, that is it.


----------



## dminches

Any opinions on the National Union gray glass tall bottle 6SN7s?  They look like the RCA gray glass tubes but I assume NU made their own.


----------



## Xcalibur255

My evaluation of the NU was brief and noise tinted, but I can say they don't resemble the RCA VT-231 in tone much at all.  Especially in the midrange, the presentation is totally different.  The NU doesn't have the airy clarity of a Sylvania, but it isn't thick sounding like the RCA..... the middle and upper midrange areas sound very lit up by comparison.  I can't think of a word offhand to describe it really, it definitely isn't warm sounding to my ears nor was it bright.  I don't think I cared for it to be honest, the synergy with my headphones wasn't good but it might be a very good fit for someone who thinks Sennheisers sound veiled but still don't want to inject an artificial 'sparkle' into the treble range.


----------



## dminches

Thanks X.
   
  Have any of you guys tried 5694s (with adapters) in place of 6SN7s?  Some guy is selling a quad for $1000 on audiogon.  Skylab was kind enough to point out that Brent Jessee has them for $14 each.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Hmm.  Neither of the places I go to look up datasheets has one for the 5694.  Is it a variation of a 5692, perhaps a 12V heater version or a different base/pinout?


----------



## Skylab

No, it's a 6.3v medium-mu dual-triode with somewhat similar specs to the 6SN7, but not identical. Closed to an ECC32, but not identical to that either. Also the pin out is different so an adapter is needed.

Data: http://www.nj7p.org/Common/Tube/SQL/Tube_query.php?Type=5694


----------



## Xcalibur255

Thanks for the link.  An interesting tube, especially the big ST-14 glass.  It would probably work in my amp, though I noticed the plate current is a little lower than the nominal 9mA the 6SN7 is run at in mine.  Probably not enough to strongly affect longevity but I'm sure it affects how it sounds.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Sorry guys, could you do me a favour and help me choose the best 6SN7 tube from the list? I would greatly appreciate it.
   
 *[size=medium]RCA clear glass[/size]*
 *[size=medium]RCA wafer base[/size]*
 *[size=medium]Sylvania bottom getter tall bottle flat plate[/size]*
 *[size=medium]Sylvania wafer base[/size]*
 *[size=medium]Sylvania clear glass top getter angle plate[/size]*
 *[size=medium]Westinghouse[/size]*
 *[size=medium]G.E. clear glass short base tall bottle[/size]*
 [size=medium] [/size]*[size=medium]Tung-Sol clear glass[/size]*
 [size=medium] [/size]*[size=medium]Tung-Sol Short bottle clear glass[/size]*
 *[size=medium]Raytheon black base small plate[/size]*
 [size=medium] [/size]*[size=medium]Raytheon black base large black plate[/size]*
 *[size=medium]Raytheon black base large grey plate[/size]*
   
  [size=small]All of them are some kind of 6SN7GT. I have chosen them because they are in range of 35 $ in the shop that I'm going to buy.[/size]
  [size=small]The tube is going to work with La Figaro 336c, if it helps.[/size]


----------



## rosgr63

They are all nice tubes for the money.
  I would start with the Raytheon Large Black Plate.


----------



## Skylab

Those are all nice. I agree with Stavros about the Raytheon, and on that list I also really like the tall bottle Sylvania.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





nomatterwhat said:


> Sorry guys, could you do me a favour and help me choose the best 6SN7 tube from the list? I would greatly appreciate it.
> 
> *[size=medium]RCA clear glass[/size]*
> *[size=medium]RCA wafer base[/size]*
> ... 
  I'm looking for tubes for a La Figaro 339, I guess the same recommendation applies?
   
  @NoMatterWhat: Wanna PM the link to the vendor? Tx,


----------



## redcat2

One thing i will say to you is that all these tubes are ok, but it will come down to what you like, what your ears feel is a good sound to you, by all means go off suggestions but it comes down to your own tastes. One thing i will say i have had tubes not sound good in amp X but sound fantastic in amp B, so i am trying to say that peoples opinions are a guide as to how they found that tube to sound at that point in time.


----------



## rosgr63

One has to start somewhere.
  Unless one tries for himself they will never know.
  As many people have mentioned before it's all about synergy and personal preferences.
  However some general rules are valid.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> One has to start somewhere.
> Unless one tries for himself they will never know.
> As many people have mentioned before it's all about synergy and personal preferences.
> However some general rules are valid.


 
   
  It's really hard in the beginning. All these different combinations of letters and numbers that are the "same type" of tube.
   
  Any tips for a DarkVoice 337/La Figaro 339, listen to bass-heavy music (and actually find the HD650's bass-light)?


----------



## rosgr63

Valentin it's not that difficult really.
  There is one basic tube the 6SN7GT, the rest of the letters and numbers are some specifics that should not worry you that much for now.
  If you want to learn more when you have time check the 1st post where I have mentioned some reference threads.
  Try the Sylvania 6SN7GTA, or National Union 6SN7GT black glass, what's your output tube?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> It's really hard in the beginning. All these different combinations of letters and numbers that are the "same type" of tube.
> 
> Any tips for a DarkVoice 337/La Figaro 339, listen to bass-heavy music (and actually find the HD650's bass-light)?


 
   
  You are aware that there are no 6SN7's used in that amp, yes?


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for pointing it out Rob, I wasn't aware of that.


----------



## dminches

Stavros, you almost blew up his amp !


----------



## ValentinHogea

Ooops... *6AS7G* not 6SN7... This stuff is confusing. I think I'm going to the community library to study up on vacuum tubes. I was born to late... Need to recap on my electronics history a bit.
   
Thanks anyways!


----------



## rosgr63

Sorry David, I apologize.
  I thought he could use 6SN7 with some sort of adapter.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Ooops... *6AS7G* not 6SN7... This stuff is confusing. I think I'm going to the community library to study up on vacuum tubes. I was born to late... Need to recap on my electronics history a bit.
> 
> Thanks anyways!


 
  The 6AS7G is usually an output tube not a driver.
  Try the RCA black plates


----------



## ValentinHogea

Let me see if I got this right now...
   
  ----------------------
   
  All these are different types of output tubes I can use?
   
6AS7G Mostly RCA("coke bottle" shape, excellent "retro" looking 6080 sub.) $15.00
6AS7GA $11.00
6080 $8.00
6080WA $9.00
6080WA JAN Tung Sol, nickel base $12.00
GB6080 Sylvania Gold Brand, ceramic base $12.00
6080 Genalex CV2984 military type, UK made, $30.00
5998 Tung Sol $120.00
   
And 2399?
   
---------------------
   
  All these are different types of driver tubes I can use?
   
6SJ7 $5.00
6SJ7GT glass type $12.00
6SJ7 JAN or VT-116A military types $10.00
5693 RCA made red series, premium 6SJ7, best tube for 6SJ7 in audio applications, $16.00
   
--------------------
   
   
Right?


----------



## dminches

rosgr63 said:


> Sorry David, I apologize.
> I thought he could use 6SN7 with some sort of adapter.




I was just kidding. He was asking you about 6SN7s.


----------



## rosgr63

I know but I should be more careful with our younger members.
   
  Any way Sweden is not that far...........


----------



## ValentinHogea

Stavros... You must be greek. Kalimera!
   
  I realize that this is kind of the wrong thread for my questions now... Maybe there's a better thread for it, anyways... Any tips? Or good sites for tubes?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Valentine, there is an excellent 6AS7G tube rolling thread:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here
   
  In your list I would add the Bendix 6080 which is a bit more expensive and more neutral than the RCA Black plates.
   
  As for your drivers I have never actually used them but there a lot of people with lots of knowledge in Head-Fi.
   
  Here is some basic info, I will post more sites in the next few days
  http://tubedata.tubes.se/type.html
   
  I recommend the RCA Receiving Tube Manual, look in ebay, it will be money well spent.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Let me see if I got this right now...
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> ...


 
   
  Are output tubes the same as power tubes? Because these are all called power tubes in my amp.


----------



## john57

Yes it is the same term power tubes drives the output.


----------



## mrAdrian

Wait so in my DV336, what is the 6sn7 and the 6as7 tube doing?


----------



## john57

The input goes to the volume control then to the 6SN7. The 6SN7 drives the 6AS7. The 6AS7 drives the output.


----------



## mrAdrian

Which tube has more significance over the sound output? 6as7?


----------



## john57

Generally, driver tubes makes a bit more of a difference than the output tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Some amps use driver and input tubes as well as output tubes.


----------



## mrAdrian

What does that mean?


----------



## grokit

Don't forget rectifiers!


----------



## rosgr63

True rectifiers as well and some times more than one.
   
  You can have 3 6SN7's (one driver, two input) and a pair of 300B's as output for example.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Quote:


mradrian said:


> What does that mean?


 
  Since it's hard to get a simple straight answer out of these guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, maybe this thread here head-fi will explain a lot:
The New Improved Tube FAQ for Newbies


----------



## Skylab

My Decware Mini-Torii uses tube voltage rectifiers and tube voltage regulators!


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





thegrumpyoldman said:


> Quote:
> Since it's hard to get a simple straight answer out of these guys
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Lol while hating the title, I guess it was necessary


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> My Decware Mini-Torii uses tube voltage rectifiers and tube voltage regulators!


 
  And it looks fantastic, I may add!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> And it looks fantastic, I may add!


 
   
  Thanks!  The tube regulators are really cool tubes.  Not sure how much they impact the sound, but they look cool!


----------



## rosgr63

Talking about voltage regulators the 6AS7G was designed as a voltage regulator as my amp Guru Glenn told me.


----------



## john57

It seems even to run cooler than topical tube amps.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Sorry for offtopic, but I have very immediate situation.
 I ordered 2 tubes, Raytheon Large black plate and Tung-sol 5998. Today I got a message that they shipped my order but not Tung-sol 5998 as it is out of stock.
 As I'm leaving tommorow and I have to order it before I leave, could you guys help me choose good 6AS7 tube or  equivalent ones. Price is max 50$.
 In the that shop in which I have ordered one tube fallowing tubes are available: 
   
   

 *6AS7G  RCA* *$15.00*

   

 *6AS7G  Chatham* *$20.00*
   

 *6AS7G  Other US brands* *$12.00*
   

 *6AS7G  Mullard* *$35.00*
   

 *6AS7GA  RCA* *$10.00*
   

 *6AS7GA  GE* *$10.00*
   
I do not have to order from them again but it is just the list from their shop. Plus these are only 6as7G
I write in this thread because the 6as7 thread does not get much appreciation lately.
I would greatly appreciate any response.


----------



## rosgr63

I would go for the Chatham 6AS7G or the Mullard 6AS7G which I haven't seen yet unless is USSR made & rebranded.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I would go for the Chatham 6AS7G or the Mullard 6AS7G which I haven't seen yet unless is USSR made & rebranded.


 
   
  Stavros is wise to warn that the "Mullard" tube might be a rebranded Russian tube, although it might also be a rebranded US tube.  I have seen Mullard branded 6080 tubes which were clearly GE made.
   
  I also agree, go for the Chatham


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Thank you very much for you help then. You guys are very helpful and I appreciate it.
  One more question, I saw a lot of recommendations for RCA 6as7g, was it just because it is cheap and good but Chatham is still better as you recommend it in the first place?


----------



## rosgr63

Chatham is better than RCA IMHO.
  Some Chatham were made by Tung-Sol, if it has the no 322 printed on it it's the Tung-Sol makers code.
  RCA is a nice tube but some people complain that it can be noisy.
  Good Luck.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Stavros is wise to warn that the "Mullard" tube might be a rebranded Russian tube, although it might also be a rebranded US tube.  I have seen Mullard branded 6080 tubes which were clearly GE made.
> 
> I also agree, go for the Chatham


 
  Wise?
   
  No Rob, just learned my lesson the hard way!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Nabbed myself a VT-231 KenRad blackglass to try out.  Maybe it needs to run for a while (though this tube doesn't test quite new) but I'm not hearing the big bass drive it is known for.  I'm getting a nice open and mellow sound from it right now.
   
  Unfortunately, this makes yet another swing and a miss for me and 6SN7 that behave badly in my amp.  Super microphonic with a steady state moaning sound, much like one of the BGRP Tung Sols are.  Banging my fingers on the desk snaps it out of it for a second or two but it comes back.  My keyboard is sending it into varying fits as I type this.  Clearly Glenn's amp demands more from a 6SN7 than most do, making NOS tube hunting pretty frustrating.
   
  edit:  scratch the "smooth" part.  The noise must be causing that.  During quieter moments the tube has a pretty reedy sounding treble that I can't say I care for.


----------



## phandrew

Are National Union 6SN7GT tubes any good?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Nabbed myself a VT-231 KenRad blackglass to try out.  Maybe it needs to run for a while (though this tube doesn't test quite new) but I'm not hearing the big bass drive it is known for.  I'm getting a nice open and mellow sound from it right now.
> 
> Unfortunately, this makes yet another swing and a miss for me and 6SN7 that behave badly in my amp.  Super microphonic with a steady state moaning sound, much like one of the BGRP Tung Sols are.  Banging my fingers on the desk snaps it out of it for a second or two but it comes back.  My keyboard is sending it into varying fits as I type this.  Clearly Glenn's amp demands more from a 6SN7 than most do, making NOS tube hunting pretty frustrating.
> 
> edit:  scratch the "smooth" part.  The noise must be causing that.  During quieter moments the tube has a pretty reedy sounding treble that I can't say I care for.


 
   
  Sorry to hear about your run of luck.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think I've been able to hear enough of the tube's own character through the noise to know I don't like it much.  The Ken Rad treble is not very good IMO.  It's grainy and has a sort of spotlight quality that makes most of the upper frequency range all sound like the same pitch and note.  I did think the midrange resolution was good and the big bass was coming it before I gave up and pulled the tube out of the amp.  I didn't pay a whole lot for it (the only reason I bought it really) but the increasing number of tubes in my box with issues has been starting to bother me I must confess.  Maybe it's my cue to quit buying them. 
   
  At this point I've heard the majority of the tubes worth hearing anyway, excepting rare creatures like the B65 and ECC32 that are out of my price league.  I suspect the ECC32 would sound phenomenal in this amp but I will probably never know either way.
   
  Probably my biggest surprise in all my 6SN7 rolling with the amp was finding how much I like the Brimar CV1988.  I really didn't care for it in the Woo at all.  It makes me want to track down an older Blackglass variety (mine is the clearglass with steel grid posts), but there are no deals to be found on those tubes anymore period.


----------



## Silent One

Now having an amp that uses Power tubes, has slowed my roll for Drive tubes...and Rectifiers. I'm still adventurous but the additional possibilities could prove costly at this time. Learning to be content. For now.
   
  But wait! I'll soon be receiving the 6SN7 Killas...all will be right inside the listening room. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got an experimental rectifier headed this way being sent by our designer as well.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





silent one said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Oh, what is this?  Do tell, do tell.  Glenn found a rectifier he likes more than the 3DG4?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm not sure he has or hasn't but could be on to something with a new find. Remember how well his evaluation went with the '596?' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He sought a solution for dannie01 and went "Yard!" Score another run for the Woozies! With this new rec, he likely has his own initial impressions. And would like to see how it performs in the theater using one of his amps. 
   
  But 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I already forgot the details...other than he's shipping it out West to me.


----------



## redcat2

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I think I've been able to hear enough of the tube's own character through the noise to know I don't like it much.  The Ken Rad treble is not very good IMO.  It's grainy and has a sort of spotlight quality that makes most of the upper frequency range all sound like the same pitch and note.  I did think the midrange resolution was good and the big bass was coming it before I gave up and pulled the tube out of the amp.  I didn't pay a whole lot for it (the only reason I bought it really) but the increasing number of tubes in my box with issues has been starting to bother me I must confess.  Maybe it's my cue to quit buying them.
> 
> At this point I've heard the majority of the tubes worth hearing anyway, excepting rare creatures like the B65 and ECC32 that are out of my price league.  I suspect the ECC32 would sound phenomenal in this amp but I will probably never know either way.
> 
> Probably my biggest surprise in all my 6SN7 rolling with the amp was finding how much I like the Brimar CV1988.  I really didn't care for it in the Woo at all.  It makes me want to track down an older Blackglass variety (mine is the clearglass with steel grid posts), but there are no deals to be found on those tubes anymore period.


 
   
  Xcalibur i think you have answered your own question about the Ken Rad, in that i see that some one has asked about a 6SN7 National tube, now i on a personal note i have never liked the tube to the point where i would not buy that brand, how ever one day i tried the tube in a new amp and thought woo this is great, it was not the tube but just the amps i had tried that tube in had to find something that was a match to that tube.
  I would all so if you can test the tubes grainy sound sounds like they are on there way out i no that 50 is a pass for most testers but i would bin them at that stage.


----------



## rosgr63

Redcat I agree, a lot has to do with the amp design, system synergy and tube condition.
  I have found out that even similar tubes but of different batches can sound different.
  However general characteristics are valid.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The circuit is indeed very important I agree.  As is synergy with other tubes in the system, and for tonal balance synergy with the headphones as well.


----------



## Silent One

For me, that describes the tube roller coaster pretty much.


----------



## PrestigeWW

I'm looking at upgrading my stock EH tubes on my Cary pre. I've come across some Slyvania 6sn7GT tubes with yellow lettering and the Slyvania lightning bolt logo on its black base. No chrome on top but chrome flashing on the bottom third. T plates with three holes. I can't seem to find anything on these. Is anyone familiar with this tube type?


----------



## Silent One

If possible, I'd like to see a pix so I could better follow along. No info, but info gathering...


----------



## rosgr63

If the plates are at an angle to each other it's a GTB type.


----------



## mcullinan

The NOS 1578 Russian ones with the holes in the metal plates are very good. Extended and very balanced.


----------



## Skylab

I agree with Stavros, almost certainly a GTB. I have never seen anything OTHER than a GTB with a black base and yellow lettering. Older black base tubes were green or white lettering typically. 

Anyway, Nice tubes if the price is right, which should be no more than $15 each.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Pretty much every GTB Sylvania I've come across has been a top getter.  Whether they are really t-plates or the angled tri-plate would tell the tale for the most part.


----------



## KevinWolff

Just picked up this 'bad boy' last week from TAS (Alan Leung). My favorite tube. Had a 2-hole prior with a cracked base (which I've found by strict definition is not a true bad boy) and I notice better mids and tighter bass so far with the 3-hole. Very happy with this tube.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Who's TAS ?


----------



## Silent One

I could be wrong but I believe it is TAS Audio, Brooklyn NY.
   
http://www.tasaudio.com/tubes.html
   
  If not, I stand corrected.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Thanks.  One day I will have to get a real Sylvania bad boy.


----------



## dminches

I can highly recommend TAS Audio in Brooklyn.  I have purchased several pair of tubes from Alan and each has been very nice.  And his prices are fair too.


----------



## KevinWolff

Yes, TAS Audio Brooklyn. Alan Leung was the person I dealt with. Found his ad on Audiogon after doing a Google search on Sylvania Bad Boy.


----------



## KevinWolff

It's worth it, especially since you're a fellow Peak/Volcano owner. He has some more for sale. All my early praise for the 2-hole version doesn't compare with the authentic 3-hole.
  Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Thanks.  One day I will have to get a real Sylvania bad boy.


----------



## KevinWolff

Does anyone know where I can find a good Russian 6H8C (3 or 4 hole version)?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Does anyone know where I can find a good Russian 6H8C (3 or 4 hole version)?


 
   
  Try Brent Jesse at:   http://www.audiotubes.com/    or Dale at: www.vacuumtubes.net


----------



## KevinWolff

Thanks, but neither had them. It looks like it's gone from rare to extinct
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Try Brent Jesse at:   http://www.audiotubes.com/    or Dale at: www.vacuumtubes.net


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Thanks, but neither had them. It looks like it's gone from rare to extinct
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Michael Marx (SND Tubes) at: www.vacuumtubes.com has been a pleasure to work with as well. Exercising a quick bit of Goog-Fu returned Upscale Audio (Kevin) for the early version of the Russian.
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Early-Russian-6H8C-%7B47%7D-6SN7.html


----------



## mcullinan

Be careful and make sure it has 1578 printed on it, there is a version that is often confused with the Russian NOS tube and sounds like crap.
There is a pic on the bottom of what it looks like here
http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=mycomponent


----------



## KevinWolff

Thanks! Yeah, I have one of the crappy ones unfortunately. Bought it before I knew better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  This is the good one, right?
   

  Quote: 





mcullinan said:


> Be careful and make sure it has 1578 printed on it, there is a version that is often confused with the Russian NOS tube and sounds like crap.


----------



## spiderking31

I don't know about the 6sn7, because I have the little dot mk3, but I'm using the GE Jan5654W driver tubes, and am in love!


----------



## Silent One

Thanks for the add, mcullinan, I should have pointed this out. However, I believe Brent Jesse points this out on his site.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





spiderking31 said:


> I don't know about the 6sn7, because I have the little dot mk3, but I'm using the GE Jan5654W driver tubes, and am in love!


 
   
  You're holding out on us - how does the tube render female vocals?


----------



## Skylab

A real 1578 has five round holes per plate.

But I think they are massively overrated.


----------



## grokit

Three big ones with two small ones at the top and bottom?
   

   
  Just thought I'd throw it up here. But I need to purge my 6SN7s, not get more of them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So I'm glad you think so Rob, that's all I need to hear...


----------



## Silent One

Well presented Skylab; grokit. I _need _my money. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not necessarily more glass.


----------



## KevinWolff

Yeah, I guess I won't bother with the 6h8c either. The bass in the bad boy is gonna be hard to top anyway.
   
  Also, I've discovered new love for the Shuguang BT. Although not the smoothest, it's excellent for analyzing the music. The bass doesn't hit hard, but the tightness and lightning fast response makes up for that. I hear everything with this tube, which is good and bad. It's neutral sound doesn't lend itself as well to casual listening as it does to analysis, but that's part of what makes tube rolling fun. 
   
  Unfortunately, after I started enjoying the tube it developed static in one channel. I kept it going for another 20 hours to see if it worked itself out (per Todd's (TTVJ) suggestion)  to no avail. I was pretty down about it, since it's not a cheap tube and wasn't used much past the burn-in phase. But then came Todd to the rescue. He said even though it's not under warranty anymore (and never was with TTVJ), he's sending me one he found lying around, as he put it. Not sure if it's a new one, I actually hope it isn't. I wouldn't mind skipping the burn-in phase which is considerable for the BT. TTVJ has been great to deal with since day1 and I couldn't be more happy with the peak/volcano.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I find Shuguang Black Treasure very enjoyable to listen to.  It might not have tight bass or smooth treble like vintage Sylvanias but its overall presentation of music is non fatigue and harmonious.


----------



## KevinWolff

At first I found it very fatiguing, but I have problems with my hearing, very mild tinnitus. However, I think that was before the burn-in period. The last hours before the static issue I noticed that it had become much more enjoyable as well. I'm glad I won't have to live without it. As for the bass, it's actually tighter than any of my NOS tubes, it just doesn't slam as hard for lack of a better word. I do find that it shows off what the Peak/Volcano can do better than the NOS in terms of resolution,etc. It's incredibly neutral, so that the listener can pick out whatever they wish to focus on. Which DAC do you have? I have the Anedio D1
  Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> I find Shuguang Black Treasure very enjoyable to listen to.  It might not have tight bass or smooth treble like vintage Sylvanias but its overall presentation of music is non fatigue and harmonious.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I have Audio-Gd NFB-8.1.


----------



## mcullinan

If yourr into midrange the Sylvania Jan VT231 are super sweet and glorious. Bass is a lil shy in these though. 
M


----------



## tunarat

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Yeah, I guess I won't bother with the 6h8c either. The bass in the bad boy is gonna be hard to top anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't dis the 1578 quite so quickly. It's a very unique 6sn7. 3-d realism (oxymoron?) is about unparralled


----------



## tunarat

Whoops, didn't get the whole post in. The 1578 is not gonna work if you want smooth and sultry. If you are looking female vocals, look elsewhere. It's not my everyday or favorite tube, but it does have it's place. You have to remember it's Russian...and no offense but the consistency from tube to tube is questionable. The one you want is a tad bit shorter and than most and the metal base should be shiny and not pitted or split. The 1578 also needs a good deal of time to warm up and to come to fruition. DSOM is quite awesome with this tube in the right amp.


----------



## rosgr63

The Melz 1578 are a special tube used in the Muir space station amongst other aeronautic applications and nuclear power stations.
  The were made to very strict standards, so I would expect top materials and manufacturing standards.
  It's not may favorite tube, like Rob says massively overrated as far as sonic qualities are concerned.


----------



## rgs9200m

I posted this in the Apex Pinnacle thread and thought I should repeat it here:
   
 Anyone with a Pinnacle should try out a Psvane 6ns7 (their CV181T). I got one and it's so great and fleshed out and
 really shows the great distinguishing qualities of tube sound over solid state. There is a wonderful humanity to the sound with these tubes.
 But they are not soft or rolled off either; they still have great controlled bass and liquid sweet and very extended highs.
  
 But it's the superb midrange textures that are very real, with great image density and placement.
 It's just great in the Pinnacle and makes it even better, both as a preamp and with headphones, especially HD800s.
  
 Just for the record, the Psvanes have replaced NOS vintage Tungsols, Brimars, Sylvanias, and some new production Sophias.


----------



## grokit

Thanks for sharing *rgs9200m*, I've been wanting to try that one!


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for sharing.
   
  Can you use an ECC32 or an ECC33 with the Apex Pinnacle?
  It maybe well worth it!


----------



## Audio-Omega

Did you compare Psvane CV181-T to Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z ?


----------



## rgs9200m

Quote: 





audio-omega said:


> Did you compare Psvane CV181-T to Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z ?


 
  No, sorry, but I hear they are similar. The Psvane is the new-production successor to the Shuguang (due to production/political issues).
  You can get the (I guess you would call them NOS) Shuguangs on ebay for cheap, but I don't think it's worth it to save a few bucks on a tube.
  (Of course, I only needed one for the Pinnacle, so it really didn't matter to me. The tube is $155 usd new for the best quality version.


----------



## dminches

The Shuguangs are still available.


----------



## songmic

Hi guys, I'm new to this thread and thought it'd be best to ask you instead of shuffling through over a hundred pages. Can anyone recommend a transformer-coupled tube amp or a hybrid amp (and not an OTL amp) that uses 6SN7 tubes, priced in the $1,000~2,000 range, that has a low headphone output impedance (less than 3) to be able to drive headphones with impedance of 25 ohms without distortions? All I can think of is Eddie Current's Super 7, but I'm sure there's more.


----------



## rosgr63

Craig's amps are excellent.
   
  Would you consider 2nd hand amps?
   
  Any particular reason why OTL amps are excluded?


----------



## songmic

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Craig's amps are excellent.
> 
> Would you consider 2nd hand amps?
> 
> Any particular reason why OTL amps are excluded?


 
   
  Because OTL amps usually don't work well with my low impedance headphones.


----------



## rosgr63

Will you be using Grados?


----------



## songmic

Nope, Fostex TH900 (with an impedance of 25 ohms).


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





songmic said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm using a custom built 6AS7 based OTL amp by 2359glenn with 25 ohm Denon D7000's. _Working out and working well._ Initially, I was concerned that I wasn't gettin' all I could be gettin'. So, I brought in the 62 ohm AKG K701; 300 ohm Senn HD600; 600 ohm Beyer DT-990.
   
  When the smoke cleared, I still preferred my D7000.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





silent one said:


> When the smoke cleared


 
   
  You blew up your amp?!?!!


----------



## rosgr63

Not yet sridhar, wait when he tries the new monster CCCP rectifiers!
   
  Have a look at that & take cover:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studios-appreciation-thread/531
   
  They look fantastic, well done SO!


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





songmic said:


> Hi guys, I'm new to this thread and thought it'd be best to ask you instead of shuffling through over a hundred pages. Can anyone recommend a transformer-coupled tube amp or a hybrid amp (and not an OTL amp) that uses 6SN7 tubes, priced in the $1,000~2,000 range, that has a low headphone output impedance (less than 3) to be able to drive headphones with impedance of 25 ohms without distortions? All I can think of is Eddie Current's Super 7, but I'm sure there's more.


 
   
  Actually, I cannot think of one, currently.  The Hybrid amps I know all 6DJ8/6922, and the transformer coupled use all sorts of tubes - but I don't know of one aside from that EC that uses 6SN7's as the output tubes.


----------



## sridhar3

I think the Cary 300-SEI fits the bill, but it might not come in at that price range unless you find an older used one on A'goN.  I've seen a few older ones go for $2200-2500.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> I think the Cary 300-SEI fits the bill, but it might not come in at that price range unless you find an older used one on A'goN.  I've seen a few older ones go for $2200-2500.


 
   
  Only sort of - 6SN7 input/driver tubes, but 300B output tubes...


----------



## rosgr63

The SP PPX3-6SN7 uses 6SN7 both for driver and output, and sounds fine with Grados.
  It's not in the same league or anywhere near as good as the Cary but for around $500 not a bad choice.
   
  Needles to say that it must be thoroughly checked first for safety etc.


----------



## grokit

WA22 is transformer-coupled and uses 6SN7 drivers. But it's also got that pesky balanced thing going on.


----------



## songmic

I've heard Cary 301-SEI is an excellent integrated amp (being Class A on Stereophile's recommended list) for its price, but can the same be said for its headphone amp section?


----------



## mrAdrian

Hi guys, no one steal this...
   
  but, second from right, is that the Mickey? How much does it usually go for?
   
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110922251315?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_787wt_1163


----------



## Skylab

Yes, that's a TS Mouse ears. If you have an amp that uses just one 6SN7, that would be a nice little lot of tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Some nice GTA's too, they are all nice tubes.


----------



## KevinWolff

I paid close to 50 for my mouse ears about a year ago.
  Quote: 





mradrian said:


> Hi guys, no one steal this...
> 
> but, second from right, is that the Mickey? How much does it usually go for?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110922251315?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_787wt_1163


----------



## rosgr63

That's the going rate for a good example, black plates, strong testing.


----------



## Xcalibur255

You might want to ping the seller and make sore the mouse ear tube isn't low testing.  The listing states not all of them are strong.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Little update on my Ken Rad VT-231.  Sometimes a tube needs tough love apparently.  Frustrated by its status as unusable in my amp I decided to give it a few good raps on each side of the glass to see if I could shift anything around a bit inside.  I probably hit it harder than I should have too since it was out of frustration.
   
  So I put it in the amp, praying it wouldn't arc and blow something up, and after about a minute of some pretty frightening sounds (well beyond the usual pinging and such) it goes quiet!  The ghastly moaning sound that made it unlistenable is no more.  I would do this to my TSRP becasue they have the same issue, but I paid 11x more money for those so probably not.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Now that the tube is actually working correctly it sounds really great.  Easily one of the nicest sounding 6SN7 I've used so far.  It is only a shade or so off from a Sylvania in tone, which I wasn't expecting, and has great low level resolution and a nice sense of air.  I have this feeling when I take the tube out it'll be no good again the next time I put it back in so I'm probably going to just enjoy it for a while as long as it lasts.


----------



## grokit

I agree, the Ken Rad VT-231 is a very good sounding tube. I have a matched pair that is dead quiet. Nicely balanced, full-bodied sound.


----------



## rosgr63

xcalibur tubes are alive.
  Leave it in as long as you can.
  I like Ken Rads but it's not so easy to find strong testing ones.
   
  Some times particles are lodged between elements creating all sorts of problems.
  A good shake can dislodge them and the problem is gone.
   
  Happy Listening


----------



## Xcalibur255

I hear dead quiet is hard to get in these tubes.  Mine is still extremely microphonic, but with the hum gone it only makes noise when vibration induces it now.  The tube seems delicate so who knows how long it'll last, but now I feel like it wasn't a total waste at least since I was able to hear the tubes real character.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Little update on my Ken Rad VT-231.  Sometimes a tube needs tough love apparently.  Frustrated by its status as unusable in my amp I decided to give it a few good raps on each side of the glass to see if I could shift anything around a bit inside.  I probably hit it harder than I should have too since it was out of frustration.
> 
> So I put it in the amp, praying it wouldn't arc and blow something up, and after about a minute of some pretty frightening sounds (well beyond the usual pinging and such) it goes quiet!  The ghastly moaning sound that made it unlistenable is no more.  I would do this to my TSRP becasue they have the same issue, but I paid 11x more money for those so probably not.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I enjoyed reading your account of this drama. Though, watching this unfold in person could have made for an uneasy experience. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hope it continues to work out!


----------



## Xcalibur255

*shrugs*  It's already humming again.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  The plates and the mica retainers are both loose inside so the tube will never work right for long periods of time.  I got it pretty cheap so its alright, but its still a shame since it sounds good.  I'm just happy I got to hear what they really sound like, even for a short while.  That's the only reason I bought it, it was one of the few tubes I was still curios about.


----------



## Silent One

Do both your TS-BGRP's hum or just one?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Both.  One was originally good but now they both have issues.  It is quiet(ish) sometimes, but I get tired of rolling the dice every time I turn it on you know?  I ran the pair for a month in the WA6 with zero issues, zero noise, just the best sound I ever heard out of that amp before I sold it.  This amp sounds better with its worst tubes in it than the Woo sounded with its best though, so it's all good.


----------



## Silent One

It's coming back to me now.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





silent one said:


> It's coming back to me now.


 

 Your WA6-SE?  I wondered when I saw you asking about umbilical cables for it.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   




   
*O*, that's been festering in my brain since springtime. But I was referring to your tale of woes with the expensive TS-BGRP's. I would only consider getting another _6 Special Edition_ if:
   
  1. Price and condition were excellent
  2. I could hot-rod it. Must be wicked! 
   
  If I can only afford option #1 but not #2, ALL bets are off..._why bother?! _Additionally, it must...be...Black!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Ah. 
   
  I suspect the tung sols would be fine in less demanding applications.  Maybe there will be opportunities to use them in the future.


----------



## mrAdrian

I have a DV336, which i LOVE because it only uses one 6sn7 and one 6as7.
   
  how about this one? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/280929139248?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1148wt_1396
   
  it's got a few grey glass and some black glass. Seems promising too!


----------



## Xcalibur255

That is a very desirable collection of tubes right there.  Somebody will find it and bid it up before it ends, especially if they know what these tubes are.


----------



## Skylab

Maybe, although I have often found auctions of mixed singles can provide a very good value.


----------



## mrAdrian

Fingers crossed! Litz braid style crossed!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> Fingers crossed! Litz braid style crossed!


 
  Good Luck!
   
  Let us know if you got them.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Maybe, although I have often found auctions of mixed singles can provide a very good value.


 

 I scored big the last time I did this.  Though I dare say this particular lot would be a bigger score considering what's on the right side of the picture.
   
  edit:  then again, if it is the tall glass maybe the biggest prize is second from the left.


----------



## mrAdrian

i got outbid'd, it went for under 110 bucks so I guess the winner is very happy with it!
   
  Too bad my dad shoved my car insurance payslip on top of my keyboard... maybe I'll wait for another deal of the century when I learn how to appreciate all the tubes i bought on an impulse.
   
   
  Question,
  How tall is a Sylvania tall boy compared to the normal Sylvania's? Is it by a large margin or just a bit? One of my ones seem a touch taller...


----------



## rosgr63

Not to worry, you'll have plenty more chances.
   
  Can you post a photo of your Sylvania so we can get a better idea?


----------



## Xcalibur255

It's not a lot but is visible to the eye.  Probably 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch.
   
  And yeah whoever won that auction stole it considering the tubes in it.  Assuming they test strong, which is very different from testing "good" as the seller would only assert.  That is likely why it wasn't bid higher.


----------



## dminches

I have had a bunch of conversations with Bob Putnak of tubesound.com who feels that too much weight is put on tube tests, within a pretty big range.  He doesn't feel that tubes that test high are necessarily better or going to sound better than tubes that test lower.  And their lives may not be much different.


----------



## grokit

I've read statements along those lines before, but what is the alternative?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I have had a bunch of conversations with Bob Putnak of tubesound.com who feels that too much weight is put on tube tests, within a pretty big range.  He doesn't feel that tubes that test high are necessarily better or going to sound better than tubes that test lower.  And their lives may not be much different.


 
  Hi David.
  Bob is a good friend, a honest person, one of the best.
  When it comes to tubes and testers his knowledge and experience can not be matched.
  I have learned so much from him, and yes testing is a tool sellers use to promote their tubes.
   
  I have normal testing tubes (<80%tests)  with lots of life in them that sound wonderful, and others testing much stronger that don't sound as good.
   
  A lot of people misuse the term NOS and NIB.
  A tube that may not read 100-80% of a new tube with no life left (heavily used) and visibly used pins is often described as NOS.
  They use uncalibrated testers which means the results are worthless.
  Worst still they have leakages/shorts which are not picked up by an uncalibrated tester.


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Not to worry, you'll have plenty more chances.
> 
> Can you post a photo of your Sylvania so we can get a better idea?


 
   
  Just took a picture of all the 6sn7's that I own  Let me post a few each day XD!!
   
  Today's question,
   
  1. Is my Emerson made by Sylvania?
  2. Is the middle one a 'chrome top'?
  3. Is the right most one a 'tall boy'?
   
   

   
  Writings on them:
   
  Emerson:
  6sn7 GTA, K2R on the top of the tube
   
  Sylvania (Mid):
  I3R on top of the tube, 426 on the base
   
   
  Sylvania (Right):
  C1H on the glass, 126 on the base
  I also noticed most Sylvania's seem to have triangular plates...


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Adrian,
   
  Nice photo, here is my assessment:
   
  1.The Emerson looks as it's made by Sylvania.
  2.The plates of the Sylvania tube are GTB later style plates (triangular).
      It's not a "Chrome Dome", but a very nice tube IMHO.
  3.Do you mean a "Bad Boy" Sylvania?
     Some consider only the 3 hole plates as a true "Bad Boy".
     Others would describe yours with the 2 holes as one.
   
  To me they look as a nice selection of Sylvania tubes, you can't go wrong, well done.


----------



## mrAdrian

is the third tube a 'ladder plate' structure? All I can see is five holes... More is better right?
   
  How do you distinguish the 2 holes or 3 holes? And so that confirms it as a tall bottle tube?
   
  (They do sound pretty good, especially the right most one which came with the amp. No wonder I couldn't find 'true upgrades' from it)


----------



## Skylab

Yes, the third tube is what people call ladder plates. 

Personally I think the whole "bad boy" concept is complete BS. Someone made it up to sell a certain stock of tubes for more money, IMHO. I would stick with looking for actual military VT-231 Sylvanias which at least in theory should have been more carefully selected for quality/performance if you want a nice 1950's ladder plate Sylvania.


----------



## rgs9200m

'just wanted to reiterate how much I like the Psvane cv181 (6ns7) in my Pinnacle, especially with the Fostex TH900 phones now (and the HD800s), now that the tube is breaking in.
  The TH900 needs good bass control (and control of the lower treble a little) and this tube fills the bill, along with great bloomy mids.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I had a Sylvania tall bottle once, it was taller than all my other tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes, the third tube is what people call ladder plates.
> Personally I think the whole "bad boy" concept is complete BS. Someone made it up to sell a certain stock of tubes for more money, IMHO. I would stick with looking for actual military VT-231 Sylvanias which at least in theory should have been more carefully selected for quality/performance if you want a nice 1950's ladder plate Sylvania.


 
   
  I agree Rob.
  I would add the 6SN7W, which is one my all time favourites and one of my reference 6SN7's.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Do VT-231 tubes sound different from year to year ?


----------



## rosgr63

Even different batches of the same tube can sound different.


----------



## mrAdrian

audio-omega said:


> I had a Sylvania tall bottle once, it was taller than all my other tubes.




Well then Fromm my picture do you think it is a tall tube varian I have a few very tall tubes taller than them, the Sylvania are sort of taller but not the tallest


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I've read statements along those lines before, but what is the alternative?


 
   
  There is none.  People should just take the readings with a grain of salt.  And, as Stavros said, visually inspect the tubes.


----------



## Skylab

rosgr63 said:


> I agree Rob.
> I would add the 6SN7W, which is one my all time favourites and one of my reference 6SN7's.




Absolutely ! One of my favorites as well.


----------



## dminches

They have also gotten ridiculously expensive.  They cost close to what TS BGRPs sell for.


----------



## nututubes

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Absolutely ! One of my favorites as well.


 
   
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> They have also gotten ridiculously expensive.  They cost close to what TS BGRPs sell for.


 
   
  I already have one pair, and yes they are wonderful but expensive.
  But for those who might still want some....http://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-6SN7W-METAL-MATCHED-PAIR-NOS-/130739607874


----------



## Audio-Omega

I suspect the tall Sylvania I had was taller than Tung Sol 6SN7GTB.  It would be taller than those in your photo.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> They have also gotten ridiculously expensive.  They cost close to what TS BGRPs sell for.


 
  Supposedly they are prone to arcing over and going up in smoke too prematurely.  An interesting trait for a tube that was meant for military duty.


----------



## rosgr63

I was actually referring to the non metal Sylvania 6SN7W's.
  I have the metal version as well but my reference tube is the short bottle with the lower mica inside the base.
  They metal base ones suffer from cracks, be careful when you buy them. 
   
  The final and best test as Bob Putnak has taught me is in circuit.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The short bottle W with the extra support rod and the lime green base lettering?  I've had several people tell me this is their favorite Sylvania but I wasn't ever wowed by my pair.  Really need to get myself a tube tester one of these days........


----------



## rosgr63

Yes, that's the one.
   
  I have a selection of them, but I have noticed differences in sound from different batches.
   
  I am repeating myself here but a calibrated tester is the best tube money ever spent.
   
*EDIT:* System synergy is another factor, your tubes could be fine.


----------



## Silent One

Last year, I tried really hard to save for a calibrated tube tester. And I successfully did. _Twice. _And twice, opportunity costs reared its head.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I was actually referring to the non metal Sylvania 6SN7W's.
> I have the metal version as well but my reference tube is the short bottle with the lower mica inside the base.
> They metal base ones suffer from cracks, be careful when you buy them.
> 
> The final and best test as Bob Putnak has taught me is in circuit.


 
   
  Can you show us pictures of some?


----------



## mrAdrian

Two more tubes that I want to show/ask as of today.
   
  The first one is a weird mix between 'MADE IN USA', 2 stars, un-branded (or it might have came off), and has CV1988 written on the back of it too. Maybe it is a US/UK ally witness tube?
   

   

   
   
  The second tube is a GE JAN tube made in CANADA. I thought all of them are US made? Would it be a worse tube if its used in the Canadian army instead? (Not to be offending anyone - just always thought GE was US based)
   

  EDIT: and the GE tube is what you call a tower plate structure?


----------



## Skylab

Both the short bottle AND the tall bottle Sylvania 6SN7W with black base are excellent tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Here they are David.


----------



## dminches

Very nice - thanks.  I think I only have the tall bottle variety.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> Two more tubes that I want to show/ask as of today.
> 
> The first one is a weird mix between 'MADE IN USA', 2 stars, un-branded (or it might have came off), and has CV1988 written on the back of it too. Maybe it is a US/UK ally witness tube?
> 
> ...


 

 First tube is a Raytheon.  Nice tube.  The second is interesting.  General Electric didn't really make tubes using t plates, nor did RCA which was owned by GE.  Most Canadian tubes were made by Rogers but I think they were associated with RCA too.  The lack of teeth on the top mica suggests to me a Hytron tube, but the markings on the glass aren't consistent with theirs.  An interesting find.


----------



## mrAdrian

Oh wow thanks! How'd you know the first tube is a Raytheon? And what does all those stars and CV1988 mean, I thought CV is the UK military code for 6sn7
   
  I'll wait for others to chime in on the second tube as well!


----------



## Xcalibur255

You can tell from the details.  Once you spend more time looking at various tubes you'll be able to tell as well.  Yours is made to military standards with the extra support rods and heat dissipators on the top mica.  It's the same tube as the VT-231 Raytheon ladderplate. 
   
  I'm interested to hear what everybody else thinks about the second tube.  It looks like a Hytron to me, the Sylvania tubes all had teeth holding their top mica to the glass, but something tells me I'm not right nevertheless.
   
  edit:  forgot to mention, yes you are correct CV1988 is just a British designation for a 6SN7.  It is most commonly seen on Brimar tubes which are also labeled 6SN7GTY.  Tube re-branding was very common.  This tube might have been re-labeled at some point after it was made, or made by Raytheon under contract for somebody in Britain.


----------



## Xcalibur255

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pcs-NOS-VT231-JAN-6SN7GT-CV1988-CV181-5692-ECC32-Black-Anode-/290747928488?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43b1ed4fa8
   
  Here's an interesting one.  Don't see made in australia stamped on a tube very often.  I've never such a plate style like that either.


----------



## mrAdrian

Hmm I also acquired some radiotron tubes before, but I sold all of the ones marked made in Aus... 
   
  None were military tubes however, and the plates weren't the same too. I'll post pictures tonight


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> First tube is a Raytheon.  Nice tube.  The second is interesting.  General Electric didn't really make tubes using t plates, nor did RCA which was owned by GE.  Most Canadian tubes were made by Rogers but I think they were associated with RCA too.  The lack of teeth on the top mica suggests to me a Hytron tube, but the markings on the glass aren't consistent with theirs.  An interesting find.


 
   
  X, I think you are right on the 2nd tube.  I pulled out one of my Hytron 6SN7s and the plate and internal structure are identical.  Well done.


----------



## mrAdrian

Xcalibur, seems like you have found the correct answer! And thank you dminches for double checking with your Hytron tube. People on this thread is so knowledgeable/helpful, without raves/hype...
   
  What do you people mean by 'The lack of teeth on the top mica'? And then also how is GE Canada associated with RCA, Hytron, Rogers?


----------



## Skylab

GE did make some tubes in Canada.  I have some very nice brown-base 6SN7WGTA that are GE Canada.
   

   
   
  I don't think Rogers actually made tubes.  All of the Rogers branded tubes I have seen were rebranded (and some very nice ones too, often Mullards!)


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





skylab said:


> GE did make some tubes in Canada.  I have some very nice brown-base 6SN7WGTA that are GE Canada.
> 
> I don't think Rogers actually made tubes.  All of the Rogers branded tubes I have seen were rebranded (and some very nice ones too, often Mullards!)


 
   
  I have some very nice Rogers (Mullard) GZ34s with that (elusive) DD getter.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is mine Rob


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> GE did make some tubes in Canada.  I have some very nice brown-base 6SN7WGTA that are GE Canada.
> 
> I don't think Rogers actually made tubes.  All of the Rogers branded tubes I have seen were rebranded (and some very nice ones too, often Mullards!)


 
  I know GE/RCA had a plant in Montreal, I thought Rogers was tied to that but I think I was remembering wrong.  I've seen their name on many makers' tubes as well now that I think about it.


----------



## rosgr63

Here are a GE, 1950 Hytron and 1954 CBS Hytron similar to Adrian's Post#2547


----------



## Skylab

I have several of those tall bottle Hytron tubes like the one at the bottom, and that is a VERY nice tube.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


>


 
   
  That's a really nice-looking tube!


----------



## rosgr63

You are not supposed to be on the forums before Wednesday!


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> You are not supposed to be on the forums before Wednesday!


 
   
  I take short breaks every few sections of work I do.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I have a tall bottle Hytron re-branded Corvair.  It has maybe the coolest logo I've ever seen printed onto the side of a tube.  This tube took longer than any other 6SN7 I've had to burn-in.  I had this impression it was a laid back sounding tube for the longest time, certain it was done changing in sound, but the last time I had it in the amp it did a big character flip and became very lively and detailed.  I was impressed by it before and after for very different reasons.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I don't think Rogers actually made tubes.


 
   
  Rogers did make tubes in Toronto and started already in the 1920s! Philips bought the company in the 1940s.


----------



## Skylab

Wow! Cool, thanks for the info, Oskari. So maybe that's why there are so many Rogers branded tubes made by Mullard - because Philips owned both companies?


----------



## Oskari

Absolutely. They had the factory code *r* so they must have made some, too.


----------



## mrAdrian

I bought them in the end. Besides the mouse ear, what are some other good tubes in the lot? I've never seen/heard all of the other brands


----------



## rosgr63

Well done Adrian,
   
  From what I can see from left to right:
   
  1.6SN7GTB
  2.6SN7GTB
  3.6SN7GTA Side Getter
  4.6SN7GTA Side Getter
  5.6SN7GTA Side Getter
  6.6SN7GTB
  7.6SN7GTB
  8.Mouse Ears
  9.6SN7GTB Tall Glass
   
  The Mouse Ears is an exceptional tube for me and one of my all time favourites.
  The last one is a 6SN7GTB Tall Glass similar to the wonderful Westinghouse.
   
  They are all nice tubes enjoy them.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Most of the tri-plates are Sylvanias, all decent tubes.  The mouse ear is a great sounding tube, not warm or romantic enough for some people but it is highly transparent and dynamic.  A good reference tube in many ways.  The one on the far right might be a tung sol GTB, another good tube that sells for decent money now.  The rest are GE and RCA.  The traveler and the crosley are both good examples of their respective brands there.
   
  Your mouse ear appears to be a black plate with copper grid posts, that's the best variation of this tube.  If you got a good price then it was worth buying the lot just to get this tube, they're getting hard to find.


----------



## Clevor

I have a question on the Tungsol [size=11pt]6SN7GT round plate: is it bad to run one oval and one round mica even though the tubes are well matched?[/size]
   
[size=11pt]I was reading some thread on the web - or maybe it was a tube vendor's web site - where they recommended mixing different brands of 6SN7 tubes to provide the best effect (!).[/size]
   
[size=11pt]It also seems that on military pulls, a vendor has both types of tubes, indicating that in an actual military application, a mix of tubes is acceptable. 'Course this may be fine for radio equipment, but maybe not so for audiophile equipment.[/size]


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





clevor said:


> I have a question on the Tungsol [size=11pt]6SN7GT round plate: is it bad to run one oval and one round mica even though the tubes are well matched?[/size]
> 
> [size=11pt]I was reading some thread on the web - or maybe it was a tube vendor's web site - where they recommended mixing different brands of 6SN7 tubes to provide the best effect (!).[/size]
> 
> [size=11pt]It also seems that on military pulls, a vendor has both types of tubes, indicating that in an actual military application, a mix of tubes is acceptable. 'Course this may be fine for radio equipment, but maybe not so for audiophile equipment.[/size]


 
  I had that situation in my WA5-LE and there was no problem and no sound difference between channels until my round mica died so I have a single oval mica that I am going to sell.


----------



## Skylab

The mixing of brands can work well but only in amps using more than one tube per channel. In amps with one tube per channel it does not work well.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The mixing of brands can work well but only in amps using more than one tube per channel. In amps with one tube per channel it does not work well.


 
   
  Beat me to it.  I have read, although I haven't tried, that mixing tubes in a design that utilizes multiple tubes per channel could provide enjoyable results.  But if it is only 1 tube per channel you will hear sonic differences.


----------



## mrAdrian

Super 7 comes in mind.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I had that situation in my WA5-LE and there was no problem and no sound difference between channels until my round mica died so I have a single oval mica that I am going to sell.


 
  How long did it last?


----------



## DarknightDK

How does the Sylvania 6SN7W sound in the WA22 for the LCD-3? Thinking of picking one up and wondering if they're better sounding than the Shuguang Treasures. anyone?


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> How long did it last?


 
  Couple of years I think.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> How does the Sylvania 6SN7W sound in the WA22 for the LCD-3? Thinking of picking one up and wondering if they're better sounding than the Shuguang Treasures. anyone?


 
  The Sylvania 6SN7W is a wonderful tube worth trying IMHO.
  If it doesn't suit your taste you can easily sell it.
  Where are you based?
   
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> Couple of years I think.


 
  That would be around 2000hrs, right?


----------



## Audio-Omega

Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952
   
  Music sounded tight with good resolution.


----------



## mrAdrian

I had that tube as well!! I find their mid range quite sweet compared to my RCA


----------



## Audio-Omega

Vocal is warm and smooth through that tube.


----------



## HeatFan12

Any thoughts on these?  They were in a 6SN7 lot I purchased a few years back.  They tested pretty good, but had them elsewhere and just found them.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I found the nation union black glass polarizing depending upon the amp.  It can have a beautiful midrange, but can also sound syrupy and veiled in the wrong setup.
   
  Second tube is probably a Sylvania, though the pic is too small to see the plates and be able to tell which type.


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks X,
   
  Just took these with my phone.  Hopefully a little clearer..
   
  Thanks again.


----------



## rosgr63

As Xcalibur mentioned above it looks like a Sylvania, probably GTA type.
  They are both nice tubes.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I'm with rosgr, now that I can see the t-plates I can say it's a Sylvania GTA early 50's.  The National Union is the rarer of the two.


----------



## mrAdrian

How do you distinguish a gta and a gtb?


----------



## rosgr63

By becoming a tube addict!


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks guys, I'll give them a whirl tonight...


----------



## mrAdrian

Just to keep our tube addicts busy, what's everyone's say about these two tubes?


----------



## rosgr63

The first looks like a Hytron, very nice indeed.
   
  The second is made in CCCP, buy it only if it doesn't cost much.


----------



## mrAdrian

CCCP?


----------



## rosgr63

Ask your Dad!
  He knows, I am sure.


----------



## dminches

CCCP was the band Russia was in before they broke up. Like the Beatles.


----------



## rosgr63

Oh I like it David!
   
  Always wondered........
  Sergei you better not be reading this!


----------



## mrAdrian

Ahh lol!
   
  But the box said that they were London, England?


----------



## rosgr63

The box is nice and is worth a penny or two.
  As for the tube, try it and find out.
   
  There is a lot of miss marking in tubes, best go by what you see.
  The flying saucer style getter is a give away.


----------



## Skylab

Right. Don't ever believe the box. The tube itself is what matters, and that tube is unquestionably Russian, you can buy those NIB/NOS for under $5 each with ease.


----------



## DarknightDK

Just received a pair of Tung Sol 7236. However, one of the tubes seem to have developed what seems like rust around the edges of the base. Have attached some pics of the 'rust' below.
   



   
   
  Is this normal with such tubes or should I request for an exchange?


----------



## rosgr63

You can get such marks/spots in metal based tubes.
  If it matches in values the other tube I wouldn't bother.
   
  With Flitz paste they will come out nicely and the metal will shine like new.


----------



## john57

Look like the plating is flaking and polish might make it worse but you need to get the loose particles off from it.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dminches said:


> CCCP was the band Russia was in before they broke up. Like the Beatles.


 
   
_By far, the best post I read today!_


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





john57 said:


> Look like the plating is flaking and polish might make it worse but you need to get the loose particles off from it.


 
  John is right.
   
  First you need to remove loose particles.
  Then you can try and polish a small area and see what it looks like.
   
  Avoid the markings.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Quick question regarding Sylvania 6SN7s: I got some "regular" ones with my WA22, marked GTB. I also had separately purchased some "coin-base" ones which are also marked GTB type. The construction of both looks the same to my untrained eye. Other than the shape of the base is there any other difference?


----------



## Skylab

Not that I am aware of, no. But I like the look of the coin-base ones!


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Not that I am aware of, no. But I like the look of the coin-base ones!


 
   
  Thanks, and so do I, so do I! And they may add an interesting contrast to the other tubes depending on one's setup.


----------



## rosgr63

I would dare say that because of the different bottle they sound different from the tall base ones.
  It's been long since I used them so I am only guessing.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think the glass on most coin bass tubes is actually the same height, it just looks taller because more of it is exposed to see.  I have seen exceptions though, the ones with the very long wire structure in the base which makes the plates look like they are standing on tall stilts.  Since tubes were on their way out by then it must've been done to make them cheaper to manufacture.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Mine seem exactly the same height from bottom to top and the actual assembly inside the tube is as well. It seems like they just didn't pull up the plastic sleeve to meet the outer diameter of the tube glass. I've tried them out both now for a bit and I can't hear a difference myself, the rest of the setup being identical. One drawback would be because there is little to get a hold off on the coinbase besides the glass, I guess I should be extra careful pulling them...


----------



## HeatFan12

A little triple play tonight with some Ultrasones.....
   
  X found some nice little gems in my stash.  Will post pics tomorrow.  Re-arranging my tube storage and some great ones have turned up...


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice!
  What amp is this?
  Which Ultrasones are you using?
  Thanks.


----------



## mrAdrian

What amp is that?


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Very nice!
> What amp is this?
> Which Ultrasones are you using?
> Thanks.


 
   
  Thanks!!!
   
  It's an SP MPX3 SLAM (toaster style).  At the moment I'm using the HFI-2200s.  The 6SN7s are rocking.  I had been using 5687s (with adapters) & 7N7s (with adapters) which sound great but it's good to come back to a little 6SN7 love...
   
   
  Quote: 





mradrian said:


> What amp is that?


 
   
   
  SP MPX3 SLAM (toaster style)


----------



## rosgr63

I have a SP PPX3-6SN7 with a pair of NU 6F8G round plate output tubes and different drivers.
   
  I have used a few 7N7's but did not like them as much as the 6SN7.
   
  Tip: I f you have any noisy 6SN7s put them in the output position. The operating voltages are different from the driver position so you may never have any noise issues again.


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have a SP PPX3-6SN7 with a pair of NU 6F8G round plate output tubes and different drivers.
> 
> I have used a few 7N7's but did not like them as much as the 6SN7.
> 
> Tip: I f you have any noisy 6SN7s put them in the output position. The operating voltages are different from the driver position so you may never have any noise issues again.


 
   
  Thanks ros...
   
  The 6F8G is the only adapter I have not tried.  Thanks for the tip...I recently started rolling the 6GU7 (with 6CG7 adapter) and have to say it is a great sounding tube and very economical.  I have a PPX3 SLAM as well and only use the 6SN7 as driver, so far no probs.  You don't like the 7N7s?  I got hooked with the 7N7s & 7AF7s as well and now the prices have been jacked up considerable on the 7AF7s than a few years ago.


----------



## Silent One

Will watch for a change 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 in your signature tomorrow, as well!


----------



## rosgr63

All the 7N7 and 7AF7 were made by Sylvania (Loctal Types) so there is not a huge variety.
  The 7AF7 in particular have the same construction, no variety there.
  I have tried the 6SL7, 6CG7, 12AV7, 7N7/7AF7, 6F8G, ECC32, ECC33, ECC34, ECC35, ECC40 and 2C51 family of tubes with my SP's as 6SN7 substitutes.
   
  My favorites are the ECC family, some 6SL7's, 6F8G and 2C51's so far.
  Warning: the ECC family (except the ECC35 and ECC40) may/are not suitable for you amp.
   
   
  I am an Ultrasones person.


----------



## HeatFan12

lol...I have been around for a little while and I knew you were an SP and Ultrasone man.  I follow your threads...I also own an Extreme (love living on the edge...lol)...As far as Ultrasones, look at my profile, I'm a fan as well.  The 396A, 2C51, 5670 tube is one of my favorites as well.  Sylvania Gold 5670s and Ultrasone are a beautiful match....


----------



## kiertijai

I also recently acqured the Singlepower Slam and would like to know which are the best tubes
  set to be used?  I play to use the SP with the Grado's


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> I also recently acqured the Singlepower Slam and would like to know which are the best tubes
> set to be used?  I play to use the SP with the Grado's


 
   
  SLAM basically means the 5687s as power tubes (w/ or without adapters).  What is the model that you have?


----------



## rosgr63

Well HF, thanks for the kind comments it's nice to know I am not alone in this crazy hobby.
  We have met before in the Ultrasone thread, If I  remember well.
   
  Congratulations dear Kiertijai, I am sure you'll love this little amp.
  Best have it checked for safety first to be sure all is well.
  I use the Grado SR325is permanently with one of my Extremes and couldn't be happier.


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Well HF, thanks for the kind comments it's nice to know I am not alone in this crazy hobby.
> We have met before in the Ultrasone thread, If I  remember well.
> 
> Congratulations dear Kiertijai, I am sure you'll love this little amp.
> ...


 
   
  LOL...I'm with you...Cheers!!!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Couple older pics, but still have the gear...


----------



## rosgr63

*I am not looking!*
   
  Very nice amps indeed, which is your favorite?


----------



## HeatFan12

Thanks!
   
  That is a tough one.  With so many tube rolling possibilities, it's very hard to choose.  The Extreme with a pair of Bendix 6080WBs & a Sylvania Gold 5670 is just beautiful with Ultrasones.  The dynamics and speed is hard to beat.  The WA2 with Senns and Beyers though, shines indeed.  Very hard to determine a favorite.  I just plug in and enjoy.  I also use my WA2 as a pre to my Rokits and it is great as well...


----------



## rosgr63

The Extreme with Bendix 6080WB's, a Tung Sol Mouse Ears driver, and Grado is a very nice combination.
   
  I too have no favorites really, when the music starts, I don't care which equipment I use, I just enjoy the music.


----------



## Silent One

_Very well stated._


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks SO, I am learning and as Craig Uthus told me: *There are few pleasures as simple, and wonderful as music*


----------



## Silent One

Having the best, using the best may bring about the best results. But not always the best experience. And even best results aren't a lock! It's a wonder to me that anyone could ever enjoy their music here on head-fi, if they're never satisfied with not having the best gear.
   
  I can enjoy my favorite song 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 inside an elevator! Fully and emotionally engaged. Now, I wouldn't want to..._but I could. _


----------



## kiertijai

@rosgr63, HeatFan12   thanks for the info.  This is one of my favourite thread,  I come in regulary
  and learn a lot here.
     I recently got the Singlepower Slam MPX3 from James from Brazil which is 220V but have
  no time to set up yet.  I have heard that the Slam is the amplifier for the Grado's.   James informed me
  that we can use  two 5687's and  one 6SN7's  or VT231.  However I don't know much of the 5687's (but James
  said that they provide punchier sound)  I wonder if other 6SN7's or VT231 can do the job or not? especially with
  the Ken Rad


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





silent one said:


> *Having the best, using the best may bring about the best results. But not always the best experience.* And even best results aren't a lock! It's a wonder to me that anyone could ever enjoy their music here on head-fi, if they're never satisfied with not having the best gear.
> 
> I can enjoy my favorite song
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Words of wisdom, I couldn't put it any better.
   
  When a humble mouse ears tube "sounds" as good as a  Standard 33S30B or a B65 or an ECC32 then you can't ask for more, can you?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm with you!


----------



## ISALULA

Totally agree !


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The Extreme with Bendix 6080WB's, a Tung Sol Mouse Ears driver, and Grado is a very nice combination.
> 
> I too have no favorites really, when the music starts, I don't care which equipment I use, I just enjoy the music.


 
   
   
  Totally agree.  Love the TS mouse ears.  Having favorites defeats the purpose imo.  If it's good and sounds good it can all be kept on an even level across the board.  The outcome is to enjoy the music.
   
  I think I paid about $12 like four years ago for this one:
   

   
   
   
   
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Having the best, using the best may bring about the best results. But not always the best experience. And even best results aren't a lock! It's a wonder to me that anyone could ever enjoy their music here on head-fi, if they're never satisfied with not having the best gear.
> 
> I can enjoy my favorite song
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Very well said and totally agree.  In this endeavor, "best" can mean many things and not necessarily monetary.
   
   
  Quote: 





kiertijai said:


> @rosgr63, HeatFan12   thanks for the info.  This is one of my favourite thread,  I come in regulary
> and learn a lot here.
> I recently got the Singlepower Slam MPX3 from James from Brazil which is 220V but have
> no time to set up yet.  I have heard that the Slam is the amplifier for the Grado's.   James informed me
> ...


 
   
   
  Did you receive any tubes with the amp?  If so, plug them in and get a foundation on the sound with what you have first, before looking to buy more, imo.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Slyvania 6SN7GTB
   
  Initial impression is that they sounded different.  One had softer treble and a bit less bass than the other.  However both tubes were sweet sounding with good resolution.


----------



## mrAdrian

Are they the 'coin base', and so they are equivalent to the black base yellow writing Sylvania GTB's?


----------



## Audio-Omega

We need tube experts to comment on that.


----------



## Skylab

Yes, they are the coin-based 6SN7GTB, and sound quite similar to the Sylvania GTB's with the "normal" base that have the same plate structure, although I might like the coin-base just a bit better.


----------



## Audio-Omega

On my second listen, I thought they sounded very similar.  I still prefer a Sylvania from 1949 and 1952, they make music more engaging to listen to because they are more prominent in the middle range.


----------



## mrAdrian

I sold two of the triangular plates (is that the right way to describe them) GTBs and kept a GT with ladder plate structure to myself


----------



## Silent One

B36 MARCONI OSRAM 12SN7 NOS VALVE TUBE 1PC   
  At $149.19, is it overhyped and overpriced?
   
   





   





 Yeah, I've got my eye on it...


----------



## rosgr63

Crazy price!


----------



## Silent One

Thanks for looking out. Price aside, is it a nice sounding tube?


----------



## mrAdrian

I received my bunch of tubes that came with the mouse ears, and very very unfortunately the mouse ear had a crack on the base (those hairline sized ones...)
   
  I paid 45+15 shipping for a total of 9 tubes... What should I do? Oh and btw included in the bunch, there's a tall bottle tungsol gtb as well!


----------



## rosgr63

Mouse Ears are prone to base cracks.
  If the base is tight and the tube tests strong, I would keep them.
   
  They'll give lots of listening pleasure, well worth the money.


----------



## Skylab

SilentOne, do you an amp that will actually use a 12SN7?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> SilentOne, do you an amp that will actually use a 12SN7?


 
  Yes, the 6AS7 based custom built OTL amp by 2359glenn. I have a voltage quadrupler I'm listening to right now before bedtime. I have the Brimar 13D1; Ken Rad 1633, couldn't locate 25SN7 tubes yet. And a voltage doubler to run 12SN7 tubes, like john57 - we've the same OTL amps. Pictured with TSBGRP-VT231; TS5998; USAF-596...will have to take a new pix! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   




   
   
   
   
  Found it! Here's a pix of my 12SN7 > 6SN7 adapter and Russian 5U8C rectifier.


----------



## mrAdrian

rosgr63 said:


> Mouse Ears are prone to base cracks.
> If the base is tight and the tube tests strong, I would keep them.
> 
> They'll give lots of listening pleasure, well worth the money.




It is more of a dishonest issue with the seller, but given the price i paid i really do not know should i ask for any compensations at all.

Might just ask for a discount on any possible future purchases.


----------



## Skylab

OK, got it, SO. That's handy, as you can get some nice 12SN7's for much cheaper than their direct 6SN7 counterparts. 

But a 12SN7 should be cheaper than that Osram!


----------



## Silent One

Thanks...was in a shopping mood. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I missed a quad sale of TS-BGRP 12SN7 'cause I could only afford one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still on the look out for that one, that size. Then I could sell the 6SN7 siblings for extra cash. The Brimar took me by surprise like the calm before the storm - beginning to sound very nice.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> OK, got it, SO. That's handy, as you can get some nice 12SN7's for much cheaper than their direct 6SN7 counterparts.
> But a 12SN7 should be cheaper than that Osram!


 

 The transformer in the OTL amp is a gorilla Skylab, it can take anything you can throw at it.  A very handy feature we've all been enjoying with Glenn's help.  FWIW I have found the 1633 KenRad to sound identical to the KenRad VT-231 blackglass and you can get them for $4.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> I received my bunch of tubes that came with the mouse ears, and very very unfortunately the mouse ear had a crack on the base (those hairline sized ones...)
> 
> I paid 45+15 shipping for a total of 9 tubes... What should I do? Oh and btw included in the bunch, there's a tall bottle tungsol gtb as well!


 

 If the glass isn't genuinely loose against the base the tube is still okay Adrian.  The crack won't affecft its performance or lifetime.  I have/had several mouse ear tubes that were like this, it affects a lot of the early 50's tung sol 6SN7s.  If I were you I'd still keep the tube as rosgr63 recommended.


----------



## mrAdrian

Thanks for everyone's response! There's no way I'm going to ship it back, but now I'm rest assured to use the tube


----------



## Clevor

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> If the glass isn't genuinely loose against the base the tube is still okay Adrian.  The crack won't affecft its performance or lifetime.  I have/had several mouse ear tubes that were like this, it affects a lot of the early 50's tung sol 6SN7s.  If I were you I'd still keep the tube as rosgr63 recommended.


 
   Anybody know how much a TSRP with a cracked base should be discounted? Say you bought the tube for $200 and the seller missed the crack. How much of a refund should I ask for? I'm testing the tube now; the bulb is firm, and it sounds fine. It's a fairly rare round mica so I want to keep it.
   
  I heard many NOS TSRPs have cracked bases. It's due to being hastily pulled off the burn in rack at the factory - by gorillas I presume. Well, it was wartime, so the factory had to churn them out.


----------



## Xcalibur255

If it isn't noisy then I'd just be glad to have it, and not worry about trying to get a discount on it.  The demand on them is pretty strong against the few remaining supplies.


----------



## rosgr63

The Sylvania 6SN7W metal base suffer from base cracks too.
   
  BTW Glenn's amp could even handle a 6AS7G as a driver!
   
  There is an SP model that can run 12SN7's with an external power supply.
  The 12SN7>6SN7 adaptor option is the best as you can still use the 6SN7's.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I should try that sometime, I wonder how it would sound.  I do think gain would be an issue in that scenario though, going from a mu of 20 to 2.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The Sylvania 6SN7W metal base suffer from base cracks too.
> 
> BTW Glenn's amp could even handle a 6AS7G as a driver!
> 
> ...


 
  We take it upon your finding this out..._you did it. _






 So, how did it sound with 6AS7G as drive tube?


----------



## rosgr63

I think we are loosing the die hard 6SN7's addicts with all these alternatives!
   
  Now look at this substitute:


----------



## rosgr63

I don't have my amp yet SO, so I can't say sorry.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I don't have my amp yet SO, so I can't say sorry.


 
  Currently in-session with Sade - "Keep Looking" Track time 05:22:05
   
  Are you still in the lab taking notes on the 6SN7 killa? I admire your efforts to advance our place in this hobby.


----------



## rosgr63

Did Sylvania make "Bad Boys" in 1953?
   
  This pair has the date code 305.


----------



## tagosaku

left overs from 1952 spilling into 1953? Sure looks like BadBoys


----------



## Skylab

Since the only definition of "Bad Boy" is the three holed plate Sylvania, and you have one made on the fifth week of 1953, I would say the answer is yes


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob, they do sound very much like my 1952 vintage Bad Boys, so looks like they were 1952 left overs!


----------



## dBel84

Seems like I am going to have to start paying more attention to this thread again. My passion for tube rolling has just been revived and I know Rob will see the irony in this but I have put down my name to get an official unit after this past weekends tube frolicking.  #link#
   
  so to start - how far off from the bad boys are the new shuguang's ?
   
  ..dB


----------



## rosgr63

I have never tried the Shuguang so I can't say.
  I am not keen on new production 6SN7, sorry.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah I think the Sylvania Bad Boys are in another league versus the Shuggie, Donald. The BT's are OK, but really nothing special, IMO.


----------



## dBel84

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have never tried the Shuguang so I can't say.
> I am not keen on new production 6SN7, sorry.


 
  no need to be sorry about your passion  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yeah I think the Sylvania Bad Boys are in another league versus the Shuggie, Donald. The BT's are OK, but really nothing special, IMO.


 
  Thanks Rob , I will start keeping an ear to the ground for some good tubes to roll. The production version of the Liquid Glass is a little way off, so no rush. It might be easier to find the 12SN7 options too. 
   
  ..dB


----------



## Skylab

12SN7's certainly will save you some bucks. It's almost insane how you can get 12SN7's that are identical in structure to their 6SN7 counterparts often for as little as 10% of what the 6SN7 would cost.


----------



## Clevor

What kind of lifespan can one expect from these pricey, rare 6SN7 variants such as Bad Boys or Tungsol round plates? I mean you are paying $150-600/pair and if you run them every day do they crap out in 2-3 years? I've heard of a 10,000 hr military rating but I don't think they will live anywhere near that. What is a realistic operating hour rating for these tubes?
   
  I know it depends on the amp and whether the tube is used or how good NOS the tube is, but I always hear of guys owning a coveted tube pair but they never run the tubes in the amp daily or at all!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Did Sylvania make "Bad Boys" in 1953?
> 
> This pair has the date code 305.


 

 Are your grid posts made of copper or steel?  Those look like steel to me.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





clevor said:


> What kind of lifespan can one expect from these pricey, rare 6SN7 variants such as Bad Boys or Tungsol round plates? I mean you are paying $150-600/pair and if you run them every day do they crap out in 2-3 years? I've heard of a 10,000 hr military rating but I don't think they will live anywhere near that. What is a realistic operating hour rating for these tubes?
> 
> I know it depends on the amp and whether the tube is used or how good NOS the tube is, but I always hear of guys owning a coveted tube pair but they never run the tubes in the amp daily or at all!


 

 At nominal plate voltage and current 5,000 hours is realistic from a good tube I would say.  It depends upon the amplifier topology and usage (how much you turn it off and on).  Run conservatively a 6SN7 can very well run 10,000 hours and still give good performance.  Or it could crap out in only a thousand, especially if it develops a short or noise issues.  It just depends.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





clevor said:


> What kind of lifespan can one expect from these pricey, rare 6SN7 variants such as Bad Boys or Tungsol round plates? I mean you are paying $150-600/pair and if you run them every day do they crap out in 2-3 years? I've heard of a 10,000 hr military rating but I don't think they will live anywhere near that. What is a realistic operating hour rating for these tubes?
> 
> I know it depends on the amp and whether the tube is used or how good NOS the tube is, but I always hear of guys owning a coveted tube pair but they never run the tubes in the amp daily or at all!


 
   
  The prices vary, and you can get a bargain if you know what you are looking for.
  I just payed $49 for this matched NOS pair of "Bad Boys" which is not bad for todays prices.
  I was lucky though as I have payed a lot more for my other similar pairs.
   
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Are your grid posts made of copper or steel?  Those look like steel to me.


 
   
  The photo was desaturated as it had a colour cast.
  They are copper posts.
   
  Some headphone amps run the tubes conservatively so I would expect them to last for a few years.
  Then again tubes are "alive' so they can die develop shorts after a few hours of use.
  That's why a refurbished tester with a good shorts circuit is a must.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The prices vary, and you can get a bargain if you know what you are looking for.
> I just payed $49 for this matched NOS pair of "Bad Boys" which is not bad for todays prices.
> I was lucky though as I have payed a lot more for my other similar pairs.


 
   
  Did you get them on ebay or another random site?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi David $49.99 on August 10th, when the ebay God was asleep.
   
  Also a nice TS VT229 BGRP and a RCA 6SL7 Smoked Glass for $19.99.
   
  Testing the TS as we "speak", Tina Turner never sound*ed* so good!


----------



## dminches

Stavros, nice buys!  I rarely seem to get very good deals.  I don't overpay, but I don't get things for under market value.
   
  I also seem to always be looking for pairs which reduces the market size.


----------



## rosgr63

I am seldom lucky buying tubes David.
   
  You can make nice pairs from singles, but it would take time and patience, very rewarding though.


----------



## Anathallo

Any input on the Raytheon's below?  I'm terrible at ID'ing tubes.....


----------



## Xcalibur255

GTBs, circa 1960-ish I would say.  A fast dynamic tube, good quick bass.  I found it a bit peaky and nasal, as I do many Raytheon tubes.  It doesn't have the low level detail of a older vintage GT tube but is good by GTB standards IMO.  They're a great bargain tube as nobody charges much money for them.


----------



## rosgr63

Side getter, nice tubes at reasonable prices.


----------



## Anathallo

Gonna shoot another question to you experienced folk.
   
  For those 6SN7 tube amps that can also get by with 6F8G tubes, are there any benefits to using them sonically?  They seem to be cheaper than 6SN7s, even when you account for the adapter.


----------



## tagosaku

Quote: 





anathallo said:


> Any input on the Raytheon's below?  I'm terrible at ID'ing tubes.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





anathallo said:


> Gonna shoot another question to you experienced folk.
> 
> For those 6SN7 tube amps that can also get by with 6F8G tubes, are there any benefits to using them sonically?  They seem to be cheaper than 6SN7s, even when you account for the adapter.


 
   
   
  Some 6F8G tubes have plate structures that the 6SN7 don't have and they sound different.
  Now it will depend on your system and personal preferences whether you'll like them better or not.


----------



## Skylab

I agree. Also, the 6F8G will work in ANY amp where the 6SN7 will work, assuming you have the adapter required for accomodating the 6F8G. Aside from the different construction (base, pin config, grid cap), the electrical properties of the two tubes are identical.


----------



## musicman59

I personally like them better than the 6SN7. I have some Reytheon, RCA, Sylvania, TubngSol and Emerson (made by Tungsol). Some have gray glass, others black. Some have flat plates and others round plates.
  For instance I like better my Tungsol 6F8G Black Glass/Round Plates than my Tungsol 6SN7 Black Glass/Round Plates but I agree it all depends of you taste.
   
  For the cost of the adapters and the tubes it is worth to give them a try to see if you like them.


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





tagosaku said:


>


 
  I echo with you, the tubes look like a GE to me, but I'm inexperienced ;p


----------



## suikodenii

Can anyone provide some insight into or impression of the following tube that I bought recently? It says Rogers, although not in the usual plain/bold logo that I know from Rogers.
  As well it says JAN CQ 6SN7GT (on the tube as well) and I couldn't find any mapping of "CQ" on the net...is that for Rogers?
  Are they likely made by Rogers or rebranded? It has, from what I understand, T-shaped plates, vertical code of 151, three holes and extra supports...but I am still a tube noob 
   

   
  Thanks a lot to those willing to share some insights!


----------



## rosgr63

Rogers Elect. Corp. has the Manufacturer Code 677 and the military identifier CQ.
   
  It looks as though the plates are at an angle so if that's the case it's a GTB type tube for military use.


----------



## suikodenii

rosgr63 said:


> Rogers Elect. Corp. has the Manufacturer Code 677 and the military identifier CQ.
> 
> It looks as though the plates are at an angle so if that's the case it's a GTB type tube for military use.




Thanks! The plates are not angled but are facing each other with the "top part" of the T. On the chrome top it says 6SN7GT.


----------



## Xcalibur255

It may well be Canadian made under license from Sylvania.  I don't know enough to say for sure.  The plates look like Sylvania, but the exposed bottom mica and gettering that doesn't extend past the top mica is a combination I haven't really seen with the 3-hole t-plate before.  It's possible it is a t-plate style Sylvania GTA with a slightly shorter plastic base, then the pieces of the puzzle would fit.
   
  How does it sound?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> I echo with you, the tubes look like a GE to me, but I'm inexperienced ;p


 

 GE uses a different style of mica.  It actually is made by Raytheon, that was the final GTB type made by them before they began importing tubes from elsewhere and putting their name on them.


----------



## rosgr63

Just found out that Tung-Sol made 6SL7 Black Glass Grey Round Plates.
  I thought they were only Black.


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Just found out that Tung-Sol made 6SL7 Black Glass Grey Round Plates.
> I thought they were only Black.


 
  I thought that almost all 6SL7s were round plate


----------



## rosgr63

Yes, but the Tung-Sol I thought had Black Plates not Grey.
   
  Here are some different style plates:


----------



## rosgr63

6SN7 Exposed.
  Base removed and photographed by Bruno my French Tube Guru.
  He was trying to repair a rare tube but the electrodes were corroded and cut flush with the glass.


----------



## sridhar3

Quote:


rosgr63 said:


> 6SN7 Exposed.
> Base removed and photographed by Bruno my French Tube Guru.
> He was trying to repair a rare tube but the electrodes were corroded and cut flush with the glass.


 
   
  Isn't posting pornographic images on Head-Fi against the ToS?


----------



## kchew

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> 6SN7 Exposed.
> Base removed and photographed by Bruno my French Tube Guru.
> He was trying to repair a rare tube but the electrodes were corroded and cut flush with the glass.


 
   
  Isn't that a B65?!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





sridhar3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> Isn't posting pornographic images on Head-Fi against the ToS?


 
   
  I've been very naughty sorry!!!!!
   
   
  Quote: 





kchew said:


> Isn't that a B65?!


 
   
   
  It's actually an Australian VT-231 with smooth Black Plates.
  Very strong bass, has some similarities with the Melz 1578, but better sound overall.


----------



## Blackmore

I would call it "Suffering Beauty" , it simply showing the hard way or what man are willing to do to get the best, actually, this one worth an Award, imo
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> 6SN7 Exposed.
> Base removed and photographed by Bruno my French Tube Guru.
> He was trying to repair a rare tube but the electrodes were corroded and cut flush with the glass.


----------



## rosgr63

Yes it does!
  If you think that Bruno was going to re solder the electrodes and rebase the tube.
   
  Two of them were cut flush so he couldn't, just one of these things.


----------



## spiderking31

I apologize for not commenting sooner....they're awesome with female vocals! Adele in particular!  very nice tubes I can report


----------



## adhoc




----------



## mrAdrian

Pretty box!


----------



## rosgr63

Here is an unusual (to me) box for a VT-231


----------



## dminches

Stavros, that tube is one of my favorites, just below the TS BGRPs.


----------



## rosgr63

David for $17.86 incl shipping may prove a good buy.
  Have to wait to see what it sounds like.


----------



## mikey8811

What is it? A RCA Grey Glass?


----------



## rosgr63

I hope so.
   
  Like David mentioned, this is one of my all time favourite tubes together with the Sylvania 6SN7W Black Base.
  The RCA 6F8G Grey Glass is just as good if not better.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Sylvania Jan-Chs 6SN7GT 1952.
   
  I don't like its thick and warm sound, may be I'm used to airy sounding Sylvania.


----------



## rosgr63

Which Sylvania are you comparing it to?


----------



## mikey8811

Audio-Omega, I like warm. I'll be happy to take 'em off you if you have a pair


----------



## Blackmore

This is BadBoy, right?  


audio-omega said:


> Sylvania Jan-Chs 6SN7GT 1952.
> 
> I don't like its thick and warm sound, may be I'm used to airy sounding Sylvania.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Yes I think it's a Sylvania Bad Boy however I prefer the airy sounding Sylvania (see my post 2638 on page 176).
  It's warm sounding for vocals of pop music but probably just right for well recorded music.  By the way, I only bought one.


----------



## rosgr63

It has two holes in the plates, so strictly speaking  it's not a "Bad Boy".


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> It has two holes in the plates, so strictly speaking  it's not a "Bad Boy".


 

 Right.  These sound nice but the Bad Boy has better low level resolution helping it avoid sounding thick.


----------



## Audio-Omega

That one has three holes. I prefer the sound of the two holes.


----------



## rosgr63

If it has three holes and it's dated 1952 it's definitely a "Bad Boy"
   
  Personal preferences and system synergy are very important.


----------



## Blackmore

I listened this morning to my 3 holes one and from the start its very punchy and compact ( thick ) sounding, but after 15-30 minutes it become more balanced, however still punchy and full sounding. Personally, I can't say that this tube is warmish, but compare to Brimar, definitely punchier with plenty of midbass, if the record offer of course, but I do see your point about the warm and thick sound. Not sure if my a truly BadBoy, but the seller said it is.
 
Agree with rosgr63, depends on amp as well.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I'm going to let it run for a few hours a day to see if the sound changes.


----------



## Skylab

The so-called "bad-boy" doesn't even make my top five SYLVANIA 6SN7's, and it isn't in my top 20 overall. I've never understood the love for that tube. It's fine, not bad, but nothing special, to me.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think it's the way it does note decay and reverb mostly.  It's a unique kind of romanticism that's not for everybody.  I'm not sure if I would put it in my top 5 6SN7 either, but for short periods of time it is still highly satisfying to listen to because it's presentation is so unique that it makes material sound fresh again.  I think the mil plate chrome domes Sylvanias beat it hands down in transparency and general performance, but sometimes the emotional connection is very important too.


----------



## DarknightDK

So what are THE top 5 6SN7s to audition?


----------



## rosgr63

Is that to satisfy ones curiosity or for purchase with value for money in mind?


----------



## Solude

Subscribed.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The so-called "bad-boy" doesn't even make my top five SYLVANIA 6SN7's, and it isn't in my top 20 overall.


 
   
  I'd love it if you made a Top 6SN7 variant list like you have for tube amps.  Quick little signature sound description would obviously be needed as well   Oh and thanks for the Ken Rad VT-231 black glass suggestion for deep powerful bass.


----------



## rosgr63

We started a top 5 favourites list following post #1620.
   
  Maybe it's time for an update.


----------



## Seamaster

Can anyone hear the difference between black glass and clear glass ken-rad vt231


----------



## rosgr63

A lot depends on the system and the condition of the tubes.
   
  Do both test as strong?
   
  Even the same type tubes but of different batches can sound different.


----------



## Seamaster

I am just think, should i stock up some black glass too. i have enough clear one. i doubt there is enough sonic difference


----------



## rosgr63

There is no harm if you can get them for a reasonable price.
   
  Do you use singles or pairs?


----------



## Solude

Will say this, if I can't get my first VT-231 so you could have another spare /shakesfist   FYI the two are supposed to sound the same.  Clear glass also makes it easier to verify the staggered plates.
   
  Thanks for the link back to the Top 5.  Problem is they aren't qualified.  Not knowing why, makes them a crap shoot for buying.  After more research it looks like the Psvane CV181-T also fits the deep bass, full midrange style.  Sea, get one of those


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> I am just think, should i stock up some black glass too. i have enough clear one. i doubt there is enough sonic difference


 
  What matters is the plate arrangement.  Staggered plates are good, whether the glass is black or not.  The parallel plates are a different design from after GE took over the KenRad operations, doesn't sound as good.  The clear glass are better value, their price doesn't get driven up as much.


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





solude said:


> Will say this, if I can't get my first VT-231 so you could have another spare /shakesfist


 
   
  Laid claim to my single, order away Sea 
   
  Question for the experts though...  Which tube new or nos sounds most like the Mullard ECC32 that well isn't the ECC32?  Are either the Shug Treasure or Full Music coke bottles similar?


----------



## Skylab

IMHO, not even close. I didn't think either the Shuggie or the FM were even all that great, certainly nothing like a real Mullard ECC32. That's the thing about that tube - it has a sound all its own.


----------



## Solude

And a price to match for even non Mullard labeled ones


----------



## Skylab

Yep, sadly, that is the case.


----------



## Blackmore

I dont think my list will change that much.
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> We started a top 5 favourites list following post #1620.
> 
> Maybe it's time for an update.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> There is no harm if you can get them for a reasonable price.
> 
> Do you use singles or pairs?


 
  I got them back 4/5 years ago was $70 for match pair Ren-Rad and RCA VT231s. The most I paid was $120 pair Brimar. I always get them in pair or in quad. All my tubes are doing much better than my stock 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I should went tube trading instead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The GEC 6AS7s I paid for $100 a pair NOS, now got 300% plus in return. haha...
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> What matters is the plate arrangement.  Staggered plates are good, whether the glass is black or not.  The parallel plates are a different design from after GE took over the KenRad operations, doesn't sound as good.  The clear glass are better value, their price doesn't get driven up as much.


 
   
  Here are a few I have, nothing too special like you guys got.


----------



## Seamaster




----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





solude said:


> Will say this, if I can't get my first VT-231 so you could have another spare /shakesfist   FYI the two are supposed to sound the same.  Clear glass also makes it easier to verify the staggered plates.
> 
> Thanks for the link back to the Top 5.  Problem is they aren't qualified.  Not knowing why, makes them a crap shoot for buying.  After more research it looks like the Psvane CV181-T also fits the deep bass, full midrange style.  Sea, get one of those


 
  I bought them way back before this thread exist.
  Quote: 





solude said:


> Laid claim to my single, order away Sea
> 
> Question for the experts though...  Which tube new or nos sounds most like the Mullard ECC32 that well isn't the ECC32?  Are either the Shug Treasure or Full Music coke bottles similar?


 
   
  Thanks for remind me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. As for Shuguang, we talked a long time ago, they were not as good as real UK tubes.


----------



## Seamaster

Did quick check on ebay, what the heck! I am glad sold off all amps runs on 6SN7


----------



## Blackmore

Nice tubes
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Which lucky amp going to get them?
   
  If you have time and patience, you can still get some great bargains from Ebay, otherwise you pay big dollar.
   
  THX


----------



## rosgr63

Seamaster your RCA Grey Glass is a great tube and as Xcalibur said the KR staggered plates are good too.
   
  As for the Chinese ECC32 I agree with Rob.
   
  What's the getter of your grey plates Brimar like?


----------



## mrAdrian

Is this the smoked glass, in comparison to a clear glass RCA 6sn7? How are they supposed to sound/differ from each other?
 
   
  How do you tell the differences between the tube's sound? I couldn't remember its sound by the time I switch my amp off, twiggle one tube out, pop another in, turn the amp on and give it another ~3min for it to warm up...


----------



## john57

The other differences that I can see is the support rods. On the smoke glass  the support rods are internal and runs the whole length of theplate. On the clear glass the support rods are only attached to the plate in one spot. I do not have these tubes and can not tell what the sounds differences could be.


----------



## Solude

When it hits my door I will have...
   
  Sylvania 6SN7 Bad Boy
  CBS/Hytron 5692 Brown Base
  Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass
   
  Is there a 4th one I should look into to compliment those, that is under $100 and not quote unquote top tilted?


----------



## Skylab

Yes - Sylvania 6SN7WGTA brown base


----------



## Solude

This one?
   
_[size=medium]"6SN7WGT/A, Early type, brownbase, JAN Sylvania Military grade, black triangular plates[/size]_
   
_[size=medium]These are early brownbase types, with either the dark brown or marbled brown micanol bases, all Sylvania labels. These are the famous military JAN tubes, as sweet as the VT-231 types, but with brown bases."[/size]_
   
  And then of course the question... what do they 'sound' like?


----------



## rosgr63

I would suggest a Grey Glass RCA to complement your selection as the 5th tube.


----------



## Skylab

The Sylvania WTGA are very smooth, with an open midrange, a sligtly sweet treble, and a full and extended bass. Not the most extended at either extreme, but that's a very slight reticence. IMO, an underrated tube.

But Stavros' recommendation is also excellent - the grey glass RCA is a great tube.


----------



## Solude

I suppose without reference the question is compared to what?  Sky would you mind adding your thoughts to these too?
   
   
 Sylvania 6SN7 Bad Boy
 CBS/Hytron 5692 Brown Base
 Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass


----------



## Skylab

I've commented pretty recently on the Bad Boy (neutral and extended but kind of sterile) and Ken Rad (the bass monster, but a bit thick sounding). The Hytron 5692 is also a great tube, sounds to me much like the Sylvania WGTA.

All are quite good, though, especially in the right context.


----------



## Solude

Think I'll sit pretty at 3 then


----------



## Xcalibur255

You think the Badboy sounds sterile Skylab? 
   
  Personally I'm almost all the way on the other side of the scale.  Lush and wet would be my words for it, though in a lower midrange octave than where those values usually live, which is why I like the tube really.  When I think sterile the first thing that comes to mind are Raytheons personally, followed by some Tung Sols if they aren't paired well with other tubes.


----------



## Solude

*[size=medium]sterile[/size]*[size=medium]* *_Pristinely clean but uninvolving._[/size]
   
  [size=medium]I agree with the first part of the definition, but uninvolving depends on your definition.[/size]


----------



## Xcalibur255

I wouldn't even use the word clean.  That describes my personal favorite Sylvania tube very well (clean yet very involving), but the Bad Boy is a lot more romantic than that if you ask me.  It goes to show how amp dependent it all is, but FWIW I found the Bad Boy to sound about the same tonally both my transformer coupled Woo and my current OTL amp.


----------



## Solude

Well as luck would have it only 1 of my reseller's Ken Rad VT-231 tubes is dead quiet BUT it has a tiny shard of glass loose inside.  He's suggesting if that bothers me that the [size=11pt]JAN RCA VT-231, greyglass, blackplate is another bass rich tube that isn't fat.[/size]
   
  [size=11pt]So experts... glass shard or RCA?[/size]


----------



## Xcalibur255

The glass shard is harmless, just make sure it isn't touching one of the plates.  Quiet Ken Rads are hard to get so I would hold onto it personally.


----------



## Solude

Alright, if I hate it its on you   Thanks


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





solude said:


> Well as luck would have it only 1 of my reseller's Ken Rad VT-231 tubes is dead quiet BUT it has a tiny shard of glass loose inside.  He's suggesting if that bothers me that the [size=11pt]JAN RCA VT-231, greyglass, blackplate is another bass rich tube that isn't fat.[/size]
> 
> [size=11pt]So experts... glass shard or RCA?[/size]


 
   
  The RCA grey glass VT231 is one of my favorite tubes.  It is well above the Ken Rad vt231 for me. YMMV.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

I seek a single reasonably priced Tung Sol VT-99 6f8g.  Anyone have any pointers?


----------



## Neogeo333

Ebay?


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





dminches said:


> It is well above the Ken Rad vt231 for me. YMMV.


 
   
  How would you compare the two?


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think the Ken-Rad has the better low level resolution personally, but both are good tubes.  They're pretty different tonally, especially in the mids.  The Ken Rads have an unsual midrange that is either love it or hate it, along with their impressive bass drive and slightly recessed high end.  It's not that the midrange is recessed per se, it is kind of hard to put into words.  The RCAs are forward in the upper mids and, in my opinion, unnaturally rich sounding throughout most of the range making everything sound bloomy.  Pleasant, but not truthful.  Then again neither is the Ken Rad really.  If you want an "honest" sounding tube you want a Tung Sol IMO, or if you want honest with a sweetheart personality there are half a dozen Sylvanias that fit the bill.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

ebay only has pairs listed for big money.


----------



## Solude

Its for the Apex Peak that I'm trying to increase the bass presence on when compared with the Hytron 5692 and Syl Bad Boy.  But not at the cost of clarity if you follow me.


----------



## Neogeo333

http://www.ebay.com/itm/matched-pair-Tung-sol-6f8g-VT99-tubes-1940-valve-audio-tube-Vacuum-tube-/290798618158?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43b4f2c62e

But still crazy price


----------



## Mr.Sneis

I did see that one NeoGeo, maybe I can go in on it if I can get a fellow member to buy the other tube!  Hint Hint.


----------



## Neogeo333

Im actually looking for a pair plus the 6sn7 adapter. But like u said at a resonable price.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

I think they come up for sale every now and then in the fs/t forum.  Seems to be a saught after tube for Woo and Eddie Current amps.  My disadvantage, I haven't been watching their prices to know what a reasonable price is!!


----------



## Neogeo333

Im in the same boat. But since those are becoming rare specially the TS. Thats why its so high. Maybe a resonable price of 100.00 for a nos pair?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





solude said:


> Its for the Apex Peak that I'm trying to increase the bass presence on when compared with the Hytron 5692 and Syl Bad Boy.  But not at the cost of clarity if you follow me.


 
  The RCA has good bass in some circuits and not in others, while the Ken Rad is well known for its bass drive.  I'm not sure the trade-off will be worth it to you though, as it is not as transparent sounding as either the Hytron or Sylvania.  The Bad Boy has pretty good bass, not the best control but it has good drive and presence.  The military style Sylvania W tubes are good at this too.  If you like the Hytron sound you should try a Tung Sol "mouse ear" GT tube too.  They're not warm or sweet like the tubes being discussed but they have great bass all around and are very clear and lucid sounding.  In many ways a reference tube with less coloration than most tubes.


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> The RCA has good bass in some circuits and not in others, while the Ken Rad is well known for its bass drive.  I'm not sure the trade-off will be worth it to you though, as it is not as transparent sounding as either the Hytron or Sylvania.  The Bad Boy has pretty good bass, not the best control but it has good drive and presence.  The military style Sylvania W tubes are good at this too.  If you like the Hytron sound you should try a *Tung Sol "mouse ear" GT* tube too.  They're not warm or sweet like the tubes being discussed but they have great bass all around and are very clear and lucid sounding.  In many ways a reference tube with less coloration than most tubes.


 
   
  I also find the Tung Sol mouse ears to have very quick transient responses, but I don't know would others agree with me here


----------



## rosgr63

The TS Mouse Ears Black Plates is an excellent tube.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Im in the same boat. But since those are becoming rare specially the TS. Thats why its so high. Maybe a resonable price of 100.00 for a nos pair?


 
  I think you will find that for a nice pair it will be somewhere between $120 -$150.


----------



## rosgr63

Don't forget the TS 6F8G can have flat or round plates.
  They are priced accordingly.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is a rare version of the MOV B65


----------



## Silent One

So very sexy! Is it yours?


----------



## sridhar3

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Here is a rare version of the MOV B65


 
   
  WHOA.  That thing is PRETTY.


----------



## Neogeo333

I wonder if this is like the cv1988 but with metal base? But seeing one is kinda rare.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





silent one said:


> So very sexy! Is it yours?


 
   
  That's the word I was looking for thanks SO!
   
  Yes, it's mine a recent find and should be shipping soon.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  If I were your neighbor, I'd sign for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 while you're away at work!


----------



## rosgr63

Now you've got me worried.
   
  Just as well my postwoman is a good friend!


----------



## rosgr63

Here are two of the more known MWT versions:


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Now you've got me worried.
> 
> Just as well my postwoman is a good friend!


 
   
  Will it be featured inside your recently custom built amp?


----------



## rosgr63

All three shown above will be.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> All three shown above will be.


 
   
  Oh my...


----------



## rosgr63

Come on SO give me a breather.
   
  Occasionally when the eBay God is asleep I get lucky.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Come on SO give me a breather.
> 
> Occasionally when the eBay God is asleep I get lucky.


 
   
  I admire that you put yourself in a position to be lucky. Hats off to your diligence.


----------



## rosgr63

It's not diligence I am afraid SO, but addiction.


----------



## Skylab

On the other end of the spectrum, I just got a beautiful NOS/NIB quad of these Raytheon made, Selectron branded parallel grey ladder plate 6SN7GTB's - for $7 each!!!!


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice tubes Rob.
  I like these GTB's they sound good and are excellent value for money.
   
  BTW I did not pay much for these NIB B65's that's why I thought I was lucky.


----------



## Skylab

Thanks Stavros.  It's funny that you can get these beautiful USA made tubes for less $ than any "current production" Russian 6SN7.
   
  And congrats on scoring those B65's!


----------



## dminches

Rob, that is a sweet find.  Someone had some extra time on their hands to fiddle about.
   
  Stavros, stop hogging all the B65s!!!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> On the other end of the spectrum, I just got a beautiful NOS/NIB quad of these Raytheon made, Selectron branded parallel grey ladder plate 6SN7GTB's - for $7 each!!!!


 
  Japanese made?


----------



## Skylab

xcalibur255 said:


> Japanese made?




I don't think so, but I'm honestly not completely convinced that they aren't. They SAY "made in USA" everywhere, but I know that Raytheon did make tubes in Japan after the war. These might be Japanese. But at these prices, I don't really care, and the Japan 6SN7's are starting to gain a bit of a following. The tubes do have "JVBP" etched in the glass, but I don't know what that means.

These sound good enough I just ordered two more quads, and the guy has black plates for $10 each, so I just ordered two quads of those too. Stocking up at these prices! Hard to imagine getting cheaper NOS/NIB 6SN7's for any less...


----------



## rosgr63

The Japanese Raytheon 6SN7GTB sound really good, both grey and black plates.
   
  Rob if you buy them by the quad, what chance do we have?


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Anyone have a take on the Sylvania 6sn7gta vs 6sn7gtb?


----------



## rosgr63

Could be the same tube, do you have any photos?


----------



## Skylab

rosgr63 said:


> The Japanese Raytheon 6SN7GTB sound really good, both grey and black plates.
> 
> Rob if you buy them by the quad, what chance do we have?




LOL! I'm not sure how this guy got all of these, but he seems to have a large quantity. That probably accounts for his low price.

HINT: you can find him in BarterTown on AudioKarma, if you are a subscriber there.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob!


----------



## StalkerAssassin

Hello.
  Someone met tube Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" with yellow marking for base? Is very interesting to see her photo.


----------



## rosgr63

I have seen them with White or Green writing, but not with yellow.
  It will be very interesting to see them.


----------



## Blackmore

They look Japanese made to me, JVBP=Joint Venture Business Partnership, means when 2, or more, companies have come together for one specific purpose. In this case, one company, Toshiba/Hitachi?, made tubes for Raytheon?
   
  I sign for 3 black plates
   
   
  THX
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> On the other end of the spectrum, I just got a beautiful NOS/NIB quad of these Raytheon made, Selectron branded parallel grey ladder plate 6SN7GTB's - for $7 each!!!!


----------



## Neogeo333

Can someone educate me on the difference between Tung Sol VT-231 with round plate and oval plate?  I know one is older revision but do they sound the same?


----------



## dminches

I think you are referring to the mica, not the plate. People have said they sound different. I can't say that I have really experienced that, but most of mine are oval mica.


----------



## Neogeo333

Yes i meant the mica. It just that i got one and i see other places have the round mica and i was wondering if they are the same thing.


----------



## Skylab

blackmore said:


> They look Japanese made to me, JVBP=Joint Venture Business Partnership, means when 2, or more, companies have come together for one specific purpose. In this case, one company, Toshiba/Hitachi?, made tubes for Raytheon?
> 
> I sign for 3 black plates
> 
> ...




Actually I was really thinking you were right, then I got another quad of the same tubes from the guy, and these have "JVBP USA" etched (not painted) in the glass. So they are Raytheon USA. The black plates all have "6SN7GTB USA" etched on the top of the bottle. Those are super nice!


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks Rob, but does this change the possibility of Raytheon + Toshiba JVBP much?, cos they look very alike Japanese Toshiba anyway, maybe Raytheon made them under Toshiba's licenes?
  I have some Italian made tubes 6SN7GT ATES that were  RCA USA license and this is stated on tubes as well, but JVBP, I believe, was/is common code in Japan, however I may be wrong.
   
  Any pics? THX
   
   
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Actually I was really thinking you were right, then I got another quad of the same tubes from the guy, and these have "JVBP USA" etched (not painted) in the glass. So they are Raytheon USA. The black plates all have "6SN7GTB USA" etched on the top of the bottle. Those are super nice!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Can someone educate me on the difference between Tung Sol VT-231 with round plate and oval plate?  I know one is older revision but do they sound the same?


 
  The round mica were made first then the oval mica and then the round mica again.
   
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> I think you are referring to the mica, not the plate. People have said they sound different. I can't say that I have really experienced that, but most of mine are oval mica.


 
  I too can't say for sure.
  People say that oval mica sound best.
  However I have found differences between steel and copper grid posts, the later sounds better to me in my system.


----------



## Silent One

I'd be wary about supply & demand. Because there are fewer Round Mica versions, the pricing is higher. And those trying to move them will want to say they sound better. And they may or may not sound better! However...


----------



## rosgr63

When you can get a $7 tube which sounds great what's the point of spending $$$?
   
  I am using a cracked base Tung-Sol mouse ears and couldn't be happier.


----------



## Silent One

I'm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 with you!


----------



## Skylab

blackmore said:


> Thanks Rob, but does this change the possibility of Raytheon + Toshiba JVBP much?, cos they look very alike Japanese Toshiba anyway, maybe Raytheon made them under Toshiba's licenes?
> I have some Italian made tubes 6SN7GT ATES that were  RCA USA license and this is stated on tubes as well, but JVBP, I believe, was/is common code in Japan, however I may be wrong.
> 
> Any pics? THX




I will post some pics of the black plate soon. 

My experience has been that if the country of manufacture is ETCHED in the glass, then it is almost certainly made there. If it is painted, on the glass or plate, it's much less certain, because it is well known that some tube sellers re-paint/silkscreen desirable logos onto tubes. Sometimes these are the tubes they say they are, with the logos re-silk-screened to increase resale value, and sometimes the silkscreen is put on a lesser tube, which is of course truly fraud.

But when etched in the glass...this is not possible to do later. 

Also, Raytheon was making 6SN7's long before Toshiba. If anyone was licensing from anyone, it would have been Toshiba licensing the design from Raytheon and then Raytheon selling the tubes Toshiba made. 

But as I said before, and as you are right to point out, my friend, it is hard to know. And also, at these prices, and given that the Japan 6SN7GBs seem to be pretty good sounding, I am really happy either way. It would be nice to know definitively, but I'm not sure I ever will


----------



## Blackmore

Thanks Rob, here is some info I found, seems that Raytheon have had a long time relationship / ownership with / in Japan, at least folks mentioned this up here about other tubes to
   
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-383409.html
   
  THX
   
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> I will post some pics of the black plate soon.
> My experience has been that if the country of manufacture is ETCHED in the glass, then it is almost certainly made there. If it is painted, on the glass or plate, it's much less certain, because it is well known that some tube sellers re-paint/silkscreen desirable logos onto tubes. Sometimes these are the tubes they say they are, with the logos re-silk-screened to increase resale value, and sometimes the silkscreen is put on a lesser tube, which is of course truly fraud.
> But when etched in the glass...this is not possible to do later.
> Also, Raytheon was making 6SN7's long before Toshiba. If anyone was licensing from anyone, it would have been Toshiba licensing the design from Raytheon and then Raytheon selling the tubes Toshiba made.
> But as I said before, and as you are right to point out, my friend, it is hard to know. And also, at these prices, and given that the Japan 6SN7GBs seem to be pretty good sounding, I am really happy either way. It would be nice to know definitively, but I'm not sure I ever will


----------



## rosgr63

Rob I would have thought that if the plate is marked there is no way a vendor could remove the glass envelope to do the job.
   
  I am thinking about the 30S30 and 33S29, amongst others.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have seen them with White or Green writing, but not with yellow.
> It will be very interesting to see them.


 
   
            For gossips the yellow marking just say I will not, tubes with yellow markings were issued in 1940.

 I only saw the military version of this lamp with light green markings on the base in 1945.
 

















  Photo:
http://uaimage.com/tsi/2166950_36badc86.jpg?key=vygEA5N2PRCRKzhhT4bcEA
http://uaimage.com/tsi/2166951_0ae4662a.jpg?key=PphCEoSdGMLOsboRLIee8w
http://uaimage.com/tsi/2166952_407d4432.jpg?key=DAyTjdymbEg1h7_IjVWpGw
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The round mica were made first then the oval mica and then the round mica again.
> 
> I too can't say for sure.
> People say that oval mica sound best.
> However I have found differences between steel and copper grid posts, the later sounds better to me in my system.


 
  I also prefer the Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Round Plate" with copper grid posts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## rosgr63

Добрый вечер
   
  I am sorry but I can't see the photos, can you upload them here please?
   
  BTW the GEC 6AS7G you are using in your La Figaro 336 are very nice tubes.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

rosgr63 said:


> Добрый вечер
> 
> I am sorry but I can't see the photos, can you upload them here please?.



I'm sorry, here please:
   



rosgr63 said:


> BTW the GEC 6AS7G you are using in your La Figaro 336 are very nice tubes.



Fully agree with you.


----------



## Skylab

Those technically are not the "bad boy". They have two holes in the plates. Still, VERY nice VT-231 tubes, I have some, they sound great!

-------------

Here are my black-plate Selectron/Raytheon tubes. I think there is little doubt these were USA made. USA etched in top of glass, and also engraved in base.










But in any case, for $10 each NOS/NIB, not bad


----------



## StalkerAssassin

skylab said:


> Those technically are not the "bad boy". They have two holes in the plates. Still, VERY nice VT-231 tubes, I have some, they sound great!



Is is "Bad Boy" just 3-hole anode? I thought that with 2 holes in the anodes also "Bad Boy". What are the differences in the sound of your hearing between the 2 and the 3-hole in the anode tube?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





stalkerassassin said:


> Is is "Bad Boy" just 3-hole anode? I thought that with 2 holes in the anodes also "Bad Boy". What are the differences in the sound of your hearing between the 2 and the 3-hole in the anode tube?


 
   
  The whole idea of the "bad-boy" to me is silly.  It's just a funny name someone once gave to a specific batch of Sylvania tubes.  But yes, the "Bad Boy" refers to the three holes tube only, from a short period of the 1950's.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

Please tell me, what feature of the high cost of the tube *G.E.C./Osram/Marconi B65*? Is it worth its price?
  
I apologize if this question has already negotiate.


----------



## rosgr63

I must confess the MOV B65 do sound very good.
  Just testing some recently purchased B65's, they reminded me how very good they are.
   
  The earlier version with the inverted cup getter like the ones I showed in 2781 & 2788 been the older and more rare type.
   
  Now do they worth the crazy money some sellers ask?
   
  Unless you are a collector *NO*.
  If you are lucky you can score some nice ones for a fraction of what some sellers ask.


----------



## Blackmore

These are exceptional tubes, no matter what some says, cos, no other tube sounds like it, imo.
   
  THX
  Quote: 





stalkerassassin said:


> Please tell me, what feature of the high cost of the tube *G.E.C./Osram/Marconi B65*? Is it worth its price?
> 
> I apologize if this question has already negotiate.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

rosgr63 said:


> I must confess the MOV B65 do sound very good.
> Just testing some recently purchased B65's, they reminded me how very good they are.
> 
> The earlier version with the inverted cup getter like the ones I showed in 2781 & 2788 been the older and more rare type.



Coll, very thanks for the information. It turns tube with clear glass for the older that spray? 
I will "catch" this rarity .


Found the net for information on the date code of British tubes: 
A - 45
B - 46
C - 47
D - 48
E - 49
F - 50
G - 51
H - 52
J - 53
K - 54
L - 55
M - 56
N - 57
P - 58
Q - 59
R - 60
S - 61
T - 62
U - 63
V - 64
W - 65
X - 66
Y - 67
Z - 68
Whether it is correct information? 
And if I should highlight a letter indicating the date code units in the photo?

G - 1951


V - 1964


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





skylab said:


> But yes, the "Bad Boy" refers to the three holes tube only, from a short period of the 1950's.


 
   
  From my tube source...
   
  [size=medium]Later GT versions were in a medium glass envelope with a green label and blackplates with bottom getter, sometimes called the "Bad Boy" 6SN7, and are sought after for their excellent sonics. The Bad Boy tubes are virtually identical to the military VT-231 from the early 1950s and are currently a less expensive alternative, but this could change as the Bad Boy fad catches on! A side note about Bad Boys, there were versions with 2 rivet holes in each plate, and versions with 3 holes. Both types sound identical. Don't fall for the bogus story that only the 3 rivet hole types are the true "Bad Boys"! You will miss out on some great sound from the 2 hole type, since the 3 hole versions are more difficult to find, more expensive elsewhere, and don't sound any different! I suspect the "3-hole only" story got started by my competition to justify charging a higher price for these tubes![/size]


----------



## Skylab

See, that's my point EXACTLY. There is no "official" definition of a bad-boy, and it's a term that was invented by someone to help sell a particular variant he once had, and people have subsequently tried to expand it to fit their personal view of the world, and their stock of tubes to sell :rolleyes:

If you cannot refer to a tube solely by the specific construction it has, or the exact dates of production, it's useless.

Anyway, thus ends my second bad boy rant. The Sylvania VT-231 as pictured above is a fine, fine tube!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Indeed it is.  FWIW, StalkerAssassin, the VT-231 shown in your photo actually pre-dates the production era of the "bad boy" tube and probably was made around or just before 1950.  I think the whole bad boy debate has become rather silly too given how much misinformation gets spread around about it.  It was proven some time ago that certain Sylvania 3-hole plate tubes made on some older military tooling sound different from the rest of the T-plate style tubes of their era, and somebody once proved they had different internal construction by dissecting one of each and comparing them.  This is arguably the tube that is supposed to have the "bad boy" name but in the end it is nothing more than a word somebody decided to apply to a particular tube, one variation amongst dozens and dozens which all sound good in their own way.
   
  Rob, I think your Ray's are USA made too.  They must be a slightly early type of GTB before they started doing the shorter glass bottle and the plate wired side getter.  I'm guessing they have a very lively and punchy sound if they're the tubes I think they are?


----------



## Skylab

You nailed it, X. Lively and punchy is the perfect description !!!


----------



## rosgr63

British tubes codes are very confusing to me.
  I am still trying to find a way to decipher them.
   
  SA thanks for this nice table, your info could be right.
   
  The G (1951) dated tube shown in the photo has an inverted cap getter which is early production.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





stalkerassassin said:


> Found the net for information on the date code of British tubes:
> . . .
> Whether it is correct information?


 
   
  This was the CV date code until they switched to numbers. The second letter indicates the month: A = Jan, etc. Apparently MOV used this for their non-CV production as well.
   

 http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/newsletter_articles/cv_valves.pdf
 http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


----------



## rosgr63

Hello Oskari,
   
  Thanks for the valuable info, nice to hear from you.
   
  You always have a very informative answer when I am struggling with these *MOV* tubes.
   
  Edit:MOV


----------



## StalkerAssassin

oskari said:


> This was the CV date code until they switched to numbers. The second letter indicates the month: A = Jan, etc. Apparently MOV used this for their non-CV production as well.
> 
> 
> http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/newsletter_articles/cv_valves.pdf
> http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm



Cool, thank you very much for the information.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Sylvania green labeled 6sn7 gta - 3 holes in plates, parallel plates, splash of chrome on the top of the glass.  That is not the same as a "bad boy" right?  I like the 3-hole parallel plate GTA more than the offset plate version of the 6sn7 gta.  I now have 4 of them!


----------



## StalkerAssassin

mr.sneis said:


> Sylvania green labeled 6sn7 gta - 3 holes in plates, parallel plates, splash of chrome on the top of the glass.  That is not the same as a "bad boy" right?



Yes, it's a different tube.


----------



## Solude

Arg my Ken Rad came in and shipping did what shipping does... claimed another NOS tube   Tested for noise and balance before shipping, arrived noisy and way out of balance.
   
  I'll burn it in tonight but don't expect miracles.


----------



## rosgr63

Sorry to hear this but I don't think shipping could make the sections go out of balance.
  It can cause shorts/ leakages but would not make the sections go out of balance.


----------



## Solude

No change after a night of burn in.  Sigh, oh well.  It was his only phono grade Ken Rad so no replacement either.  That said, since the PWD2 has warmed up, I've come to love the Bad Boy again so meh.  
   
  Would also add, this Ken Rad is super bright.  You can hear the added bottom, but it has even more added top.   Like a super V EQ.  Not listenable even at modest volume.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Odd story.  I have an old Cossor 6sl7gt tube that tested fine on my local shop's Seco 1100 and when I used it in 3 different amps it had the same problem where one channel would get very very noisy after a little use.  I just about threw this tube away but sometimes tapping the tube would help bring it back of course it would then come back shortly thereafter.  Recently I picked up a "socket saver" and noticing that its gripping force was extremely tight, I tried it with the old Cossor.  Fingers crossed but so far it seems to be working fine, I guess the real test will be leaving it on for 5 or 6 hours to see.


----------



## Solude

That's what my guy said as well..
   
_Try tapping the tube firmly on a table top, and snapping the glass with your fingernail.  The trick is to knock any possible cathode material that may be caught in the grid, to the bottom of the tube._


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Quote: 





solude said:


> That's what my guy said as well..
> 
> _Try tapping the tube firmly on a table top, and snapping the glass with your fingernail.  The trick is to knock any possible cathode material that may be caught in the grid, to the bottom of the tube._


 
   
  The past few weeks I have learned that just because a tube tests good doesn't mean all that much without having actually auditioned the tube for an extended period of time.  I have maybe 3 or 4 of these tubes that test in the good range on the Seco but I never use them because of stupid issues that pop up in use.  I figure I'd rather prefer to purchase from a seller who states something along the lines of having used the tube and it worked flawlessly rather than some guy with a tester saying his tube tests good!  I'm still a tube n00b though.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





solude said:


> That's what my guy said as well..
> 
> _Try tapping the tube firmly on a table top, and snapping the glass with your fingernail.  The trick is to knock any possible cathode material that may be caught in the grid, to the bottom of the tube._


 
   
  Loose material during transit can cause problems, even shorts and leakages so tapping the tube might cure the problem.
   
  I usually amp test newly acquired tubes for a couple of hours to make sure there are no noise or other issues.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





mr.sneis said:


> The past few weeks I have learned that just because a tube tests good doesn't mean all that much without having actually auditioned the tube for an extended period of time.  I have maybe 3 or 4 of these tubes that test in the good range on the Seco but I never use them because of stupid issues that pop up in use.  I figure I'd rather prefer to purchase from a seller who states something along the lines of having used the tube and it worked flawlessly rather than some guy with a tester saying his tube tests good!  I'm still a tube n00b though.


 
   
  Bob Putnak, the guru of tubes and testers has said this to me time and time again.  Testing information is just one data point.  It doesn't mean everything by a long shot.


----------



## Skylab

The main purpose of using a tube tester for me is to eliminate tubes that are for sure bad before sticking them in an amp where REALLY bad things could happen.


----------



## Solude

To be fair, noise testing from my seller is done in a phono pre-amp out to speakers, ie super high gain to spot light any noise.


----------



## rosgr63

Indeed David.
   
  Bob has told me on many occasions that the best test is in circuit.
   
  It's important for the tester to be checked and calibrated.
   
  It's critical to check a tube for shorts and leakages to make sure it's safe to use.
  The test scores are mostly used as a sales tool.
   
  For me a good used tube is a safer bet than a NIB which may develop problems after a few hours of use.


----------



## amandarae

Nice thread!
   
  I have quite a few 6SN7's as well.  Sold several pairs of the Tungsol Roundplates, Kenrads, and Sylvania 6SN7W's(tall and short bottle) because of the need to fund other projects but still kept a pair or two.  Never tried exotic Mullards or GEC however.  At present, most of its use in my applications are Cathode Followers, so mostly GTB's and GTA's.  My greatest bargain so far are the CBS Hytrons and GE(the ones with long horizontal wire filaments, 1st pic) GTB's, all are bottom/side getters for $1 each.  Never found the same deal ever again (5 years and counting).  2nd pic below are some of them,.Regards.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The main purpose of using a tube tester for me is to eliminate tubes that are for sure bad before sticking them in an amp where REALLY bad things could happen.


 
  Addition to that, buy socket savers for comment tube types too, to minimizes the wear on your tester. You can also match your tubes with tester.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





amandarae said:


> Nice thread!
> 
> I have quite a few 6SN7's as well.  Sold several pairs of the Tungsol Roundplates, Kenrads, and Sylvania 6SN7W's(tall and short bottle) because of the need to fund other projects but still kept a pair or two.  Never tried exotic Mullards or GEC however.  At present, most of its use in my applications are Cathode Followers, so mostly GTB's and GTA's.  My greatest bargain so far are the CBS Hytrons and GE(the ones with long horizontal wire filaments, 1st pic) GTB's, all are bottom/side getters for $1 each.  Never found the same deal ever again (5 years and counting).  2nd pic below are some of them,.Regards.


 
   
  That's a beautiful collection.
  The GE 6SN7GTB "light bridge" glows very nicely, but it's not my favourite sounding tube.
   
  The CBS Hytrons sound much better to me in my systems.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





seamaster said:


> Addition to that, buy socket savers for comment tube types too, to minimizes the wear on your tester. You can also match your tubes with tester.


 
   
   
  Glenn has made some 6SN7/6AS7 socket savers that I use with the amps I test/roll tubes.
  Some of my testers have been fitted with high quality savers by Bob Putnak who restored and calibrated them.


----------



## john57

I also have good luck with the CBS Hytrons


----------



## amandarae

> That's a beautiful collection.
> The GE 6SN7GTB "light bridge" glows very nicely, but it's not my favourite sounding tube.
> 
> The CBS Hytrons sound much better to me in my systems.


 
   

   
   
   Thanks!
   
  I agree!  The CBS Hytrons are much better sounding in gain stages.  I only use the GE's for Cathode Follower duties.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

Hi.
Are there significant differences in sound between these tubes RCA 5692 Red Base, General Electric 5692 Brown Base, CBS Hytron 5692 Brown Base?


----------



## Solude

No.  Regardless of base colour and label, RCA made them all and they all share the same internal construction.  Unless red is your favourite colour, then the RCA is better


----------



## Skylab

Hmmmm...I'm not so sure that's completely accurate. I agree that all the GE and RCA 5692's are the same RCA make. But the CBS Hytron 5692's are a little different and I believe were in fact Hytron made.


----------



## Solude

Again to quote the bible...
   
  [size=medium]Other brands like CBS/Hytron and Sylvania made brownbase versions of this tube, but I suspect all were actually made by RCA, as they are identical inside.[/size]


----------



## Solude

Clarification needed...  When people say RCA grey glass do they mean...
   
  6SN7GT RCA blackplate, GREYGLASS, short glass envelope, late 1940s vintage
   
  or
   
  6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN RCA, blackplate, clearglass, short glass envelope, 1940s military
   
  Realize the second one is clear but rather be sure


----------



## rosgr63

I agree with Rob.
  To me the CBS Hytron 5692 sound better than the RCA GE ones.
   
  There is also a Black Base GE 5692.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

Hi.
Are there significant differences in sound between these tubes: Sylvania 6SN7W; Sylvania 6SN7W (Tall Bottle)?


----------



## dminches

You will have to determine if the differences are significant, but there are differences in the sound produced with the use of each of these tubes.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

I'm thinking it's more down to the internal construction of the tube as to whether or not there is a difference.


----------



## Neogeo333

Those metal base 6sn7w sure sounds great.  Brought a pair last week to compare against another top 6sn7, TS round plate oval mica vt-231.  It better than the TS in my opinion.  The TS was in no way weak, it just that the Sylvania was better all around.  Specially in the low end.  The TS lacked bass period.  The 6sn7w was so good that I decided to get another pair.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





stalkerassassin said:


> Hi.
> Are there significant differences in sound between these tubes: Sylvania 6SN7W; Sylvania 6SN7W (Tall Bottle)?


 

 The middle and right example are both apples from the same tree.  They do have some differences, but are pretty similar overall.  The metal base are highly prized tubes, though I think the wise shopper would pursue the plastic base one because the prices are less crazy and they are nearly as good.  They're some of the best 6SN7 tubes ever made, Sylvania or not. 
   
  The tube on the left is different design and construction from a later period and sounds pretty different from the other two IMO.  Nice sounding but not special like the metal base is.  I would not pay triple digit prices for a pair of those myself.  I mention this because some sellers certainly try to charge that much because they are "W" tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Actually I like the short bottle shown on the left, but there are variants of it, the ones where the lower mica is inside the base been my favourite.
   
  I thought they were of the same WWII era, but Xcalibur is the US tube guru and knows better than me.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Xcalibur is the US tube guru and knows better than me.


 
  I doubt it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
   
  You are quite right too, there are a couple of variations of the short bottle too.  I own an example of the best seen and known type.  I don't dislike them, in fact they sound quite good in the OTL but I think my "under the radar" Sylvania tubes that I've talked about at length here in the past are superior in every category you could bring up.  That's just my personal opinion of course.


----------



## Oskari

Quiet around here...
   
  I'm currently listening to Vivaldi's Four Seasons by Seiji Ozawa and the Boston Symphony Orchestra (on Telarc; a superb recording).
   
  The tubes in the amp are a Tung-Sol flat-plate 6F8G and a GEC 6080WA. The tubes are not phenomenal, just solid, but the music is spectacular.
   
  Don't forget to listen to the music, guys!


----------



## Silent One

Absolutely! I have my moments where I'll profile something in the audio chain of events. But, I never forget to enjoy the event.


----------



## rosgr63

I have been to busy testing my Glenn OTL 6SN7/12SN7/LP2/5998 amp.
   
  One of my favorite tubes so far is the FIVRE 6SN7 Brown Base Grey Plates driving a pair of Raytheon 6AS7G Black Plates.
   
  I want to try the Black Base version with some TS 5998 next.
   
  Listening to Sade Ultimate Hits, the music is so good I forget to roll.


----------



## rosgr63

Happy Thanksgiving to ALL!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have been to busy testing my Glenn OTL 6SN7/12SN7/LP2/5998 amp.
> 
> One of my favorite tubes so far is the FIVRE 6SN7 Brown Base Grey Plates driving a pair of Raytheon 6AS7G Black Plates.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sade? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 _Hey, I'm with you...in spirit! _By chance, did you ever see her performance in the all British cast musical "Absolute Beginners"? (Athene Duncannon - Jazz singer in a smokey nightclub...was there ever any doubt what role she'd play?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Sade?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Sorry I haven't seen it, but it sounds good.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  On DVD. David Bowie a few other famous Brits are in there as well...


----------



## rosgr63

Now you are showing up my age!
   
  Rebel by David Bowie brings back lots of memories!


----------



## Silent One

Just fired up the rig for a brief session. Maybe 90-120 minutes. Very sleepy and rising early. But then, knowing me, I'll play some grooves that sound good and will be wide awake! Playing digital files this morning, vinyl to come later tonight.
   
  USAF-596; TS-5998s; TS-BGRP VT-231.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Has anyone checked out the Psvane CV181-T? I'm thinking of getting a premium pair through Grant Fidelity and would appreciate any impressions and descriptions of their sound signature. Also debating getting a pair of tried and true TS BGRP. Both are pricey, the latter seems more established.

Here is the link for the Psvane...
http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-t-6sn7-pair/

I am considering www.vacuumtubes.net for thenTung Sol BGRP. My concern there is the description is very vague and doesn't include vintage year etc. My only purchase from their was legit NOS though. They list the BGRP for $125 each. Anyone know if these are the legit versions?


----------



## Silent One

They're likely used at that price, which is ok. Get the numbers and see how they test. I found them to be fair cats the past couple of years over there. I'll be looking to move my own matched pair (used) soon. Somewhere between $320-$345, depending on my test results.


----------



## rosgr63

Sid-Fi the Psvane CV181-T is not an ECC32 (Military Code CV181) as the designation might suggest.
   
  The TS 6SN7GT Black Glass Round Plates are a "classic" tube but very expensive.
   
  SO's price is very fair, and a burgain for a good testing pair.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks rosgr63.
   
  I am considering the Psvane CV-181 to be a 6SN7 tube. I am still interested in it based on the history and seemingly good impressions of the Treasure tube it is related to. Do you have a general impression on the tube? The premium ones are pretty steep at $250 a pair, but they are extremely closely matched etc.
   
  I'm considering the TS BGRP, but the $300+ range for used tubes is a little hard to swallow/justify. Even the $250 price tag on new tubes is close to my limit for now anyway.
   
  I have been pretty happy with my main tubes - Sylvania 6SN7GTA short bottle chrome top, and RCA VT-231 smoke glass - but each feels like it is missing something, which becomes distracting. The Sylvania is warm and enganging with really nice treble performance, but has a somewhat small/lean sound with my Sophia Princess mesh plate rectifier and lacks just a touch of energy/engagement. With my United Electronics 596 recitifier, it is extremely lean with almost non-existent bass and does not mesh with it well at all.
   
  The RCA smoke glass has an extremely engaging full sound with lush mids and full bass with my 596, but seems to accomplish this by emphasizing bass and mid regions while dulling highs that left a void after the initial wow period passed. With the Sophia Princess, it doesn't go quite as well and I prefer the Sylvania with that rectifier.
   
  In other words, each tube excels with one of the rectifiers. Each has great strengths in many areas, but one weakness that is distracting based on my HD 650s with Moon Audio Silver Dragon balanced headphone cables and interconnects. It's a very engaging headphone, but its hard to find the right synergy for a more balanced and well-rounded presentation I am looking for.
   
  Any recommendations considering all of this? :O
   


rosgr63 said:


> Sid-Fi the Psvane CV181-T is not an ECC32 (Military Code CV181) as the designation might suggest.
> 
> The TS 6SN7GT Black Glass Round Plates are a "classic" tube but very expensive.
> 
> SO's price is very fair, and a burgain for a good testing pair.


----------



## dminches

I have tried the Treasures and I would be surprised if you liked them more than the RCA VT231s.  I am using LCD-3s so I can't comment on their synergy with HD-650s.  My comments are more general than specific to the tubes' use.
   
  If I were you I would try out other vintage tubes before buying new production.  JMO.


----------



## rosgr63

I am with David.
   
  I don't like any of the new production tubes I have tried so far but I have not tried the Psvane so I can't comment sorry.
   
  I am biased against new product so my opinion should not count.
   
  I can suggest the Tung-Sol 12SN7 Black Glass Round Plates, the 12V version  that is, with Glenn's 12SN7 to 6SN7 adapter.
   
*David this is a sane hobby for crazy people.*


----------



## Silent One

And this hobby is very sneaky, I might add.


----------



## rosgr63

Yes, but the real classic is the 6SN7.
   
  I would personally save money and buy the 6SN7's, if nothing else they hold their value very well and you don't rely on a voltage doubler.
   
  Unless of course your amp has a 12V option like mine built by Glenn


----------



## Xcalibur255

Sid-Fi, try this type of Sylvania tube:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4823-SYLVANIA-6SN7GT-BAD-BOY-BALANCED-SHIP-US-3-29-Internat-7-68-/200847490551?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2ec3717df7
   
  That tube is my favorite of all the Sylvanias, better than the "Bad Boys" in my opinion.  The seller is calling that tube a bad boy and he's wrong by the way.  The getter flash has to cover almost the entire tube and it needs to have a short base that exposes the bottom mica, otherwise you're getting a GTA tube like the one you have now.  These have their own sound that is different from the other Sylvanias.  It is full bodied like a Bad Boy but has the sense of transparency and fast dynamics of a TS BGRP.  These are not on a lot of people's radars because they get mistaken for GTA tubes.  I have GTAs that look very similar with the same plates, they don't sound nearly as good as this tube.
   
  This might take the things you like about both of your current tubes and marry them to provide some tube bliss.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks Xcalibur, that sounds enticing! I appreciate the link. Now to find a pair together.

So these are just called 6SN7 GT with no other distinction? It seems there are so many variations of Sylvania 6SN7, and that's before even knowing about this one. 

Thanks again!




xcalibur255 said:


> Sid-Fi, try this type of Sylvania tube:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4823-SYLVANIA-6SN7GT-BAD-BOY-BALANCED-SHIP-US-3-29-Internat-7-68-/200847490551?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2ec3717df7
> 
> That tube is my favorite of all the Sylvanias, better than the "Bad Boys" in my opinion.  The seller is calling that tube a bad boy and he's wrong by the way.  The getter flash has to cover almost the entire tube and it needs to have a short base that exposes the bottom mica, otherwise you're getting a GTA tube like the one you have now.  These have their own sound that is different from the other Sylvanias.  It is full bodied like a Bad Boy but has the sense of transparency and fast dynamics of a TS BGRP.  These are not on a lot of people's radars because they get mistaken for GTA tubes.  I have GTAs that look very similar with the same plates, they don't sound nearly as good as this tube.
> 
> This might take the things you like about both of your current tubes and marry them to provide some tube bliss.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I'm liking Sylvania 6SN7GT VT-231.  It's sweet sounding with good detail, and the music is engaging.


----------



## dminches

That is a very nice tube.  My only dislike for it is that it is bass light, or at least has been in my setup.  Very clean sounding tube though.


----------



## Sid-Fi

That's definitely the main issue with my Sylvania GTA and many of the other variations from what I have read. That's also precisely why I keep wanting to try something else since my RCA VT-231 is fantastic, but comes across as a little recessed in the highs in my setup. They are both great, but I don't want to keep observing an unbalanced frequency response while listening. I find that it distracts me and makes my listening sessions a little less immersive.
  Quote: 





dminches said:


> That is a very nice tube.  My only dislike for it is that it is bass light, or at least has been in my setup.  Very clean sounding tube though.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> That is a very nice tube.  My only dislike for it is that it is bass light, or at least has been in my setup.  Very clean sounding tube though.


 

 Bass is great in my setup.  One of the reasons I like it over other Sylvania tubes is that it has better drive.  It is no bass monster, but it's clean and fast and hits when it needs to.


----------



## dminches

No doubt that it is all about synergy with the other electronics in the specific component and the other components.
   
  Are you using it in your Glenn OTL HP amp?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Indeed I am.  I have a pair to use in my..... uhh, I guess 6B4G now when it comes back to me.... speaker amp too.


----------



## Silent One

Can't wait for you to showcase..._both of 'em._


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Thanks Xcalibur, that sounds enticing! I appreciate the link. Now to find a pair together.
> So these are just called 6SN7 GT with no other distinction? It seems there are so many variations of Sylvania 6SN7, and that's before even knowing about this one.
> Thanks again!


 
   
  I am running a pair of 596 in my WA5-LE and I would recommend you the TS BG/RP 6F8G with Gelnn's adapters or surprisingly the Ken-Rad VT231 BG also matches great with great bass and very nice top end too.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm looking forward to finding a tube that has great synergy with the 596 on my system and with my headphones. Right now, I think I prefer the Princess with my current tubes. That being said, I think the 596 has higher potential once I find the right fit.

 I've been curious about the Ken-Rad VT231 BG as they are much more affordable and easier to find than the TS BGRP. Based on my 596 adapter from Glenn, which is extremely well built and has zero microphonics, I really need to get a set of adapters for 6F8G soon. The Woo Audio adapters I had (sold them) picked up microphonics from my rectifier tubes.
   
  How would you compare the Ken-Rad you mentioned with the RCA VT231 smoke glass. Have you heard? It seems like the Ken-Rad is described similar to my impressions of the RCA.
   
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I am running a pair of 596 in my WA5-LE and I would recommend you the TS BG/RP 6F8G with Gelnn's adapters or surprisingly the Ken-Rad VT231 BG also matches great with great bass and very nice top end too.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I'm looking forward to finding a tube that has great synergy with the 596 on my system and with my headphones. Right now, I think I prefer the Princess with my current tubes. That being said, I think the 596 has higher potential once I find the right fit.
> 
> I've been curious about the Ken-Rad VT231 BG as they are much more affordable and easier to find than the TS BGRP. Based on my 596 adapter from Glenn, which is extremely well built and has zero microphonics, I really need to get a set of adapters for 6F8G soon. The Woo Audio adapters I had (sold them) picked up microphonics from my rectifier tubes.
> 
> How would you compare the Ken-Rad you mentioned with the RCA VT231 smoke glass. Have you heard? It seems like the Ken-Rad is described similar to my impressions of the RCA.


 
  I have the RCA too but I have not listen to them in long time. I wil compare them over the weekend and report back.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Nice, thank you. Look forward to your impressions.
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I have the RCA too but I have not listen to them in long time. I wil compare them over the weekend and report back.


----------



## hifimanrookie

silent one said:


> And this hobby is very sneaky, I might add.:evil:



And as i just found out..a very expensive one if ur not carefull..


----------



## rosgr63

I am afraid it's very expensive even if you are careful.


----------



## hifimanrookie

rosgr63 said:


> I am afraid it's very expensive even if you are careful.



I know that now....before i knew it.. today i ordered a pair of tung sols 5998's, a pair of rca 5693's reds and a pair of GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523 tubes and friday i will order a pair of rca vintage 1953's tubes..dont know exact model yet..is this the beginning of the end?


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I am afraid it's very expensive even if you are careful.


 
   
  Stavros, I was just about to type that!


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I know that now....before i knew it.. today i ordered a pair of tung sols 5998's, a pair of rca 5693's reds and a pair of GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523 tubes and friday i will order a pair of rca vintage 1953's tubes..dont know exact model yet..is this the beginning of the end?


 
   
  Are you following my paypal account?  I too ordered the 5998s and the GEC 6AS7Gs. Did you order them from Langrex?


----------



## rosgr63

John is good actually and ships the same day.
   
  Nice tubes enjoy them.


----------



## hifimanrookie

[INDENT[/INDENT]





dminches said:


> Are you following my paypal account?  I too ordered the 5998s and the GEC 6AS7Gs. Did you order them from Langrex?



No not from langrex..mine come from a seller in uk..can u give me the url of langrex? So maybe i can find other tubes? 
Thanks


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> [INDENT[/INDENT]
> No not from langrex..mine come from a seller in uk..can u give me the url of langrex? So maybe i can find other tubes?
> Thanks


 
   
  http://stores.ebay.com/langrex
   
  who is your uk seller?


----------



## Oskari

Langrex is hardly a secret: http://www.langrex.co.uk/
   
  Incidentally, Langrex (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/LANGREX) and Colomor (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/COLOMOR-VALVES-TUBES-COMPONENTS) are located in the same village (Billingshurst) on opposite sides of the railway line.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Oh, we only use "careful" when it relates to high voltages, not high costs.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Langrex is hardly a secret: http://www.langrex.co.uk/
> 
> Incidentally, Langrex (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/LANGREX) and Colomor (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/COLOMOR-VALVES-TUBES-COMPONENTS) are located in the same village (Billingshurst) on opposite sides of the railway line.


 
   
  And one of them was a Mullard Engineer.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Oh, we only use "careful" when it relates to high voltages, not high costs.


 
   
   
  I like it, how very true.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Langrex is hardly a secret: http://www.langrex.co.uk/
> 
> Incidentally, Langrex (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/LANGREX) and Colomor (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/COLOMOR-VALVES-TUBES-COMPONENTS) are located in the same village (Billingshurst) on opposite sides of the railway line.


 
   
  I had a littl ebit sour experinece with Langrex once. I bought a pair of Mullard ECC33 from them. After I sold them a frined from the forum let me know that those tubes were not Mullard but Tungsram.
   
  When I question Langrex they told me they were Mullard "export" tubes. Not after a lot more questioning and pressure they came out clean and accept they were really Tungsram.
   
  Fortunatley they agreed to take them back and refund me.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Nice, thank you. Look forward to your impressions.


 
   
  I made the comparison between the Ken-Rad BG V231 and the RCA GG V231. IMO the Ken-Rad has a more "V" shape sound curb comapred to the RCA. IMO the Ken-Rad wins in bass, the RCA in midrange and the RCA has a very slight advantagein high frequencies (being smoother).
   
  Both a good tubes and IMO it will all depend on synergy with the equipment and taste.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I had a littl ebit sour experinece with Langrex once. I bought a pair of Mullard ECC33 from them. After I sold them a frined from the forum let me know that those tubes were not Mullard but Tungsram.
> 
> When I question Langrex they told me they were Mullard "export" tubes. Not after a lot more questioning and pressure they came out clean and accept they were really Tungsram.
> 
> Fortunatley they agreed to take them back and refund me.


 
   
  I remember the case we discussed it with Blackmore trying to identify these tubes.
   
  The fact that he refunded you is a good sign.
  Some sellers don't know much about the tubes they are selling, don't offer a refund either and make you fight getting your money back.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks for spending the time to do the comparisons. Right now with my setup, I'm definitely trying to avoid "V" shape, or other unevenly emphasized, sound signatures so knowing that about the Ken-Rad is helpful.
   
  With my RCA VT 231, my setup has a very full, warm, and inviting sound, but the treble region seems a little too recessed to me on my setup. In other words, my RCA VT 231 has the same excellent strengths as my HD 650 (lush mids, full bass), yet the same weakness (recessed or "veiled" treble) at least with my headphones. Together, they are very immersive and enganging. However, its distracting to me to know that one part of the frequency response is not convincing.
   
  Until I get a flagship headphone like HD 800 that is more balanced, I am looking to somewhat counter my HD 650s character by bringing out the treble and taming the mid-bass hump. So far, only old-stock Sylvania's really seem to do this well.
   
  It's too bad my Sylvania GTA doesn't mesh well with my USAF 596 rectifier. The RCA just sings with the 596 and makes it truly energetic, enganging, and immsersive beyond what my Sophia Princess can do. Hopefully, I'll find something wiht the 596 that provides the same engagement as the RCA, but accomplishes countering my HD 650 like my Syvlania GTA does with the Princess.
   
  Thanks again!
   
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I made the comparison between the Ken-Rad BG V231 and the RCA GG V231. IMO the Ken-Rad has a more "V" shape sound curb comapred to the RCA. IMO the Ken-Rad wins in bass, the RCA in midrange and the RCA has a very slight advantagein high frequencies (being smoother).
> 
> Both a good tubes and IMO it will all depend on synergy with the equipment and taste.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I remember the case we discussed it with Blackmore trying to identify these tubes.
> 
> The fact that he refunded you is a good sign.
> Some sellers don't know much about the tubes they are selling, don't offer a refund either and make you fight getting your money back.


 
  yeap, that's the one. I agree at least they refunded me.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Thanks for spending the time to do the comparisons. Right now with my setup, I'm definitely trying to avoid "V" shape, or other unevenly emphasized, sound signatures so knowing that about the Ken-Rad is helpful.
> 
> With my RCA VT 231, my setup has a very full, warm, and inviting sound, but the treble region seems a little too recessed to me on my setup. In other words, my RCA VT 231 has the same excellent strengths as my HD 650 (lush mids, full bass), yet the same weakness (recessed or "veiled" treble) at least with my headphones. Together, they are very immersive and enganging. However, its distracting to me to know that one part of the frequency response is not convincing.
> 
> ...


 
  The ones I love are my Sylavania 6SN7WGT Brown Base, Chrome Top and short bottle. they are very dynamic with great response in all frequencies.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> The ones I love are my Sylavania 6SN7WGT Brown Base, Chrome Top and short bottle. they are very dynamic with great response in all frequencies.


 
   
  Those are very nice as are the Tung Sol 6SN7 WGTA brown base,


----------



## rosgr63

Both the Sylvania 6SN7WGT BB and Tung-Sol 6SN7WGTA BB are great tubes.
   
  Sid-Fi can I suggest a tube like the Mullard ECC33 or Sylvania VT231 Bad Boy style (2 plate holes) or the CBS Hytron VT231?
  Also if you get the chance try the RAL cable for the HD650.


----------



## dminches

The motto of this group is "we can bankrupt even the wealthiest of addicts."


----------



## rosgr63

Come on David, I did not even mention the forbidden BXX or ECC32 words!
   
  What about one of my all time favourites the TS Mouse Ears?
   
  Am I forgiven now?


----------



## dminches

I have never heard a pair of Mouse ears so i can't comment. I can say that ECC32s are wonderful tubes.  And expensive.
   
  Stavros, you are not forgiven.  You (and skylab) have cost me a lot of money!!


----------



## hifimanrookie

dminches said:


> The motto of this group is "we can bankrupt even the wealthiest of addicts."



I just started with tuberolling and am already feelin it on my wallet  is there a helpgroup for the tube addicted?


----------



## rosgr63

After your very wise comments about the 12SN7 tubes I showed restrain and stopped bidding on a lot of 66 12SN7 tubes.
   
  Why?
   
  It would take me a week to tube test and a month to amp test, so I thought about what you told me and stopped!
   
*There is hope after all.............*


----------



## dminches

And it didn't even require an intervention.  Well done!


----------



## rosgr63

Instead I got a Hytron, a RCA, and a pair of TS BGRPs 12SN7's which cost as much as the 66 lot!
   
  So rest assured there is no cure...................


----------



## Sid-Fi

Thanks everyone for the tubes suggestions. I see that almost everyone recommends the Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base. I have seen these all over the map as far as price goes. Can you guys tell me what a fair ballpark price is for a pair of used ones that test really well. I'm not a big stickler that they have to be completely new and unused, and would actually rather to pay less for slightly used ones. Also, are there any other tricks to look for when seeing this tube on ebay for example? You guys are the best.
   
  As for the addiction, and no hope comments, all I can say is that the best defense for my budding addiction (or lack thereof /denial) is a wife and full-time daycare. If anyone is in desperate need of an intervention, I can ship both (the kid as well) in exchange for your best tubes!
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> The ones I love are my Sylavania 6SN7WGT Brown Base, Chrome Top and short bottle. they are very dynamic with great response in all frequencies.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Hey guys and girls of the tubey universe..starting to have the tube fever myself i was searching the net and came upon two tube models i never heard of or mentioned here on this thread: hitachi 6sn7 GTB blackplate coveted tube type circa 1960 and Tung Sol Blackplate mouse ear 6SN7 gt early 50's tubes for sale... anyone has experience with those..? R they any good? Thanks!


----------



## dminches

The Hitachis are the same at the ITT (I think) and are nothing special in my opinion.  I have not heard the mouse ears.


----------



## rosgr63

The Hitachi have been discussed on page 128 and maybe other pages as well.
   
  I like them and the short plates 6SL7 is even better.
   
  The Mouse Ears has been talked about on page 167 and a few more, it's a wonderful tube.
  You can get a cheaper version without the ears that sounds the same.
  Xcalibur has verified this, if you search through you'll find his posts.


----------



## hifimanrookie

rosgr63 said:


> The Hitachi have been discussed on page 128 and maybe other pages as well.
> 
> I like them and the short plates 6SL7 is even better.
> 
> ...



U mean the tung sol gt with mess plates? I have a matched pair of those in my 337 at the moment..waiting for a better upgrade to pair with my still to receive 5998's and bendix 6080wb with solid graphite plates..it takes an eon to get things from the us to the netherlands :mad:

And thanks for the tips..i will check it out..


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Thanks for spending the time to do the comparisons. Right now with my setup, I'm definitely trying to avoid "V" shape, or other unevenly emphasized, sound signatures so knowing that about the Ken-Rad is helpful.
> 
> With my RCA VT 231, my setup has a very full, warm, and inviting sound, but the treble region seems a little too recessed to me on my setup. In other words, my RCA VT 231 has the same excellent strengths as my HD 650 (lush mids, full bass), yet the same weakness (recessed or "veiled" treble) at least with my headphones. Together, they are very immersive and enganging. However, its distracting to me to know that one part of the frequency response is not convincing.
> 
> ...


 

 You might want to try Tung Sol and Hytron out.  Neither is warm like the RCA is but they are more open and less congested sounding.  The Tung Sols are the reference for neutral and are very extended, the Hytron has great midrange resolution and a bit more polite on the top without sounding dead up there the way the RCAs can.  The Sylvanias are sweeter sounding but have the sense of air and space that the RCA and Ken-Rads lack.  The Ken-Rad is an interesting tube for sure, very good low level detail, but it has a congested midrange with an audible frequency suckout in the upper mids.
   
  Actually, now that I think about it a Brimar might just be your ticket.  It has a lot of the qualities of an RCA but is a bit more open and resolving.


----------



## dminches

I found the Brimar CV1988 with black glass to be way too warm.  I thought it lacked detail.  I really did not like that tube in my setup.
   
  I don't find the RCA VT231s to be that lacking in the high end.  And, I like its detail.  It isn't as nice as the TS BGRPs but it is a nice, cheaper substitute.  YMMV.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> U mean the tung sol gt with mess plates? I have a matched pair of those in my 337 at the moment..waiting for a better upgrade to pair with my still to receive 5998's and bendix 6080wb with solid graphite plates..it takes an eon to get things from the us to the netherlands
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think I maybe misleading you.
  I am referring to 6SN7 driver tubes which don't have mesh plates.
  The Bendix 6080's are wonderful tubes they have different constructions, some with square or triangular or slotted plates.
  Some have steel other copper posts.
  Some have black radiators other polished ones.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I have a matched pair of those in my 337 at the moment..


 
   
  The Darkvoice 337 doesn't use 6SN7GTs!
   
  The 5693 is a variant of 6SJ7 while the 5692 is a variant of 6SN7GT. These are totally unrelated tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Good morning Oskari,
   
  Thanks for putting the record straight, I was referring to 6SN7 tubes.


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





oskari said:


> The Darkvoice 337 doesn't use 6SN7GTs!
> 
> The 5693 is a variant of 6SJ7 while the 5692 is a variant of 6SN7GT. These are totally unrelated tubes.


 
   
  The 336 does and only one, making tube rolling so so easy and fun and addictive, which inevitably leads to expensive even if I am rolling only singles.
   
  Been trying out different tubes recently with my different various-tubes purchases off ebay, but the Sylvania GT is staying in its slot. Sounds good enough to my ears to roll it out and find another one in...


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Thanks for putting the record straight, I was referring to 6SN7 tubes.


 
   
  No problem.
   
  Quote: 





mradrian said:


> The 336 does and only one


 
   
  As does the 336SE.


----------



## hifimanrookie

oskari said:


> The Darkvoice 337 doesn't use 6SN7GTs!
> 
> The 5693 is a variant of 6SJ7 while the 5692 is a variant of 6SN7GT. These are totally unrelated tubes.



I meant a pair of tung sol 6 sj7gt mesh plates as driver tubes..just read it on the tube itself..my apologies....tubes are sooo confusing.


----------



## mrAdrian

Quote: 





oskari said:


> No problem.
> 
> 
> As does the 336SE.


 
  Woot mullard tube!
   
  I use like I said, the Sylvania GT with ladder plates, and a tung sol '6AS7' with 5998 internal structures... Got it for ~$40?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I meant a pair of tung sol 6 sj7gt mesh plates as driver tubes..just read it on the tube itself..my apologies....tubes are sooo confusing.


 
   
  I was worried you might try 6SN7GTs in your amp.


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


oskari said:


> I was worried you might try 6SN7GTs in your amp.



Nope..but i have to admit for a newbie like me it can be a bit confusing 

Like this..i found a pair of tubes saying they are grade 1 'but new tested' .what in the heck does that mean? I know nos and nib..but grade 1? Can anyone explain..is it save to buy grade 1 tubes..they are 5998's and i want a pair as backup for the ones i just ordered.. And these are 50 gbp each 
About another thing..they is lots talk about whether u need matched pairs as powertubes or not for non balanced tube amps..any thoughts about that? Is it necessay to use matched pairs on a non balanced amp like. My 337 with independent left and right volume knobs?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> Woot mullard tube!


 
   
  British Tungsram in reality. (There are no Mullard-made 6SN7GTs.)
   
  Got it for FIM 10, i.e. €1.68, quite a few years ago. Finnish Air Force surplus.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Both the Sylvania 6SN7WGT BB and Tung-Sol 6SN7WGTA BB are great tubes.
> 
> Sid-Fi can I suggest a tube like the Mullard ECC33 or Sylvania VT231 Bad Boy style (2 plate holes) or the CBS Hytron VT231?
> Also if you get the chance try the RAL cable for the HD650.


 
  I had a RAL in my HD650 when I had them and the build quality was not very good. I bought it second hand because the original owner did not like it. When I put it in my HD650 they sounded horrible and after much troubleshooting I decided to open the connectors to find out they were pin out incorrectly and out of phase. I fixed them and they came to life but I think I personally would prefer a Silver Dragon.


----------



## Sid-Fi

I have really enjoyed the Silver Dragon on the HD 650. It really went a long day to smooth out the bass hump, speed things up, and bring out the treble more for an overall flatter frequency response. With it and my current setup it really makes the HD 650 come as close as it seems possible to a flagship can. Obviously it is still a HD 650, but it is truly amazing how high it has scaled. I would prefer one of the flagships, namely the HD 800 or T1, but it has scaled so high as to help me be patient.
   
  Btw musicman and silent one, I was able to borrow a local member's T1 and was happy to see that he had the Zeuss cable already upgraded on it, although it was in single ended configuration. It was very very nice. Swapping back and forth with a balanced HD 800, the T1 was more warm and inviting and musical while the HD 800 felt a little more resolving. Both had phenominal imaging and sound stage, transparency, and speed. I actually found the T1 to be the more comfortable can. The HD 800 is heralded so much with comfort, but the ear cups are so big and a little heavy that I actually preferred the T1 in this regard.
   
  Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> I had a RAL in my HD650 when I had them and the build quality was not very good. I bought it second hand because the original owner did not like it. When I put it in my HD650 they sounded horrible and after much troubleshooting I decided to open the connectors to find out they were pin out incorrectly and out of phase. I fixed them and they came to life but I think I personally would prefer a Silver Dragon.


----------



## Sid-Fi

I'm going to go ahead and bump my own question since there have been so many topics going. Hope no one minds. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> Thanks everyone for the tubes suggestions.* I see that almost everyone recommends the Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base. I have seen these all over the map as far as price goes. Can you guys tell me what a fair ballpark price is for a pair of used ones that test really well?* I'm not a big stickler that they have to be completely new and unused, and would actually rather to pay less for slightly used ones. Also, are there any other tricks to look for when seeing this tube on ebay for example? You guys are the best.
> 
> As for the addiction, and no hope comments, all I can say is that the best defense for my budding addiction (or lack thereof /denial) is a wife and full-time daycare. If anyone is in desperate need of an intervention, I can ship both (the kid as well) in exchange for your best tubes!


----------



## dminches

You should be able to find a nice pair for less than $100.  I paid $65 for my last pair.  But I was patient.


----------



## Silent One

Not @ this hour, anyway...


----------



## Skylab

The thing is, there isn't just one Sylvania 6SN7WGT. There is the older, short bottle that looks like a 6SN7W but with a brown base with parallel T plates, from the 50's. then there is the 6SN7WGTA, with the short brown base but medium bottle, with the familiar Sylvania offset black plates., from the 1960's. Heretically, I prefer the latter. Those you should be able to get for $80/pair or less, NOS.


----------



## valer_valer

I think it's the ones I got last month from WOO. Am I wrong?


----------



## dminches

Rob, is the identifying difference that on the former the lettering is on the base and the latter it is on the glass?  Or am I think of the TS WGTA???


----------



## Skylab

Indeed, I think all the Sylvania WGT have the markings on the base, and the WGTA are all on the glass. But the internal differences are unmistakable.

"Older" style example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-SYLVANIA-JAN-CHS-6SN7-W-GT-5692-CV1988-VT-231-6H8C-/261137274012

"newer" style example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Electronic-Vacuum-Tube-SYLVANIA-6SN7GTA-NOS-Black-Plates-/310512042939

That said, there seem to be some "in between" examples too which have attributes of one or the other...


----------



## rosgr63

The newer tubes have the GTB plates set at an angle to each other.
  Then again Rob you like the GTB style tubes and so do I.
  Are we GTB heretics I wonder?
   
   
  On the HD650 cable I have tried 2 balanced (SAA, Rudistor) and 3 single end (SAA, RAL, stock) cables and the RAL despite been SE was the best by far.
  That's with my systems and listening preferences.


----------



## Skylab

rosgr63 said:


> The newer tubes have the GTB plates set at an angle to each other.
> Then again Rob you like the GTB style tubes and so do I.
> Are we GTB heretics I wonder?




Indeed I think we are


----------



## rosgr63

Don't tell David!!!!!!
   
  BTW here is a Sylvania 6SN7W metal base undergoing surgery by my French Tube Guru.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Awesome, thank you for all of the tips! These posts are exactly what I was hoping for. And Skylab, you do indeed seem to be a heretic in this instance. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Are the sound characteristics that different between the two. Any chance you could summarize the difference and why you prefer the 60s version?


----------



## Skylab

I find the 50's WGT's just a little too warm. The 60's WGTA is better balanced, and especially on top. It's still a wee bit lush, but not sloppily so.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The newer tubes have the GTB plates set at an angle to each other.
> Then again Rob you like the GTB style tubes and so do I.
> Are we GTB heretics I wonder?
> 
> ...


 
  Out of those cables I woudl agree that the RAL with be the best for the HD650. Also going balance makes a big difference on the HD650. Not as much with the HD800.


----------



## hifimanrookie

musicman59 said:


> Out of those cables I woudl agree that the RAL with be the best for the HD650. Also going balance makes a big difference on the HD650. Not as much with the HD800.



Just a tip..try a toxic cables cable..just read they have new ones coming out..silver wire with gold in it.. Check it..u will be surprised..


----------



## DarknightDK

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Just a tip..try a toxic cables cable..just read they have new ones coming out..silver wire with gold in it.. Check it..u will be surprised..


 
   
  Don't think thats new. the SPs have been available for nearly a year now.


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


darknightdk said:


> Don't think thats new. the SPs have been available for nearly a year now.



18awg silver poison anyone?  espensive though!


----------



## Sid-Fi

Initial impressions of the Tung Sol BGRP 6SN7 in my setup are very positive. As I have mentioned recently in this thread, I have been looking for driver tubes that can really compliment my WA22 with the 596 rectifier. My RCA VT-231 and Sylvania GTA each have great strengths, but a clear weakness that leaves me wanting.

After an initial hour and a half long listening session, the TS BGRP are proving to be much more balanced with no glaring frequency response imbalances that my tubes have annoyed me with. The bass is full but not overbearing. The mids have an understated but enjoyable warmth that makes them sound engaging without losing detail or sounding lush at the expense of neglecting the highs. The highs are so far my favorite region. They sound really alive, precise, and realistic. Overall, the tubes sound very resolving, refined, and musically engaging. I'm really enjoying them so far...

Thanks to the generous head-fi'er that offered to ship them to me for audition . I won't mention a name since I haven't asked, but this member is lurking about - cheers!


----------



## Sid-Fi

My above post reminds me of my recent comments on how amazingly well my HD 650 have scaled with my setup. This is especially true with the 596 and TS BGRP. They sound fast, neutral, with really alive treble. I think they can really struggle without an ideal chain in these areas. They can be slow, have a very uneven frequency response with boomy and even muddy bass with rolled off and veiled treble.

It's really remarkable how close they can feel to HD 800 right now in my setup. While they still lack some of the technical prowess of the HD 800, they are also very engaging and musical where the HD 800 can be a tad lean and analytical at times. Just my two cents...


----------



## Silent One

Initially, the TS-BGRP did not take me by storm. First listen came paired with an EML 5U4G in my _WA 6 Special Edition._ The presentation was nicer than with the Raytheon's and RCA Grey glass they replaced. But, I could not point to a single head & shoulder trait yet, overall it just succeeded at being really good. High averages all around. Sometimes, it's difficult to know in a short first session. 
   
  I also remember the first time I paired the USAF-596 with the TS-BGRP's - did not like it...at all! And I had already sold the EML Glass and would be shipping it out in the morning. I was nervous about what to do next, considering what the glass cost me. Eventually, I changed the length of my digital cable and that turned the pairing from worse-to-first.


----------



## rosgr63

Well done Sid-Fi it seems you found what you were looking for.
  Is this the end of your tube addiction and final cure?
   
  I would like to thank the person who sent you the tubes to try.
*Acts like t*his make our hobby so much better and puts people first, above gear.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Well done Sid-Fi it seems you found what you were looking for.
> Is this the end of your tube addiction and final cure?
> 
> I would like to thank the person who sent you the tubes to try.
> This make our hobby so much better and puts people first, above gear.


 
   
  People first...without a doubt! Now, if I can just send him 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 my own pair.


----------



## dminches

What tube is this?  It looks like a fake to me.  The lettering on the base does not look real.
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-NOS-Premium-VT-231-6SN7-Tube-Black-Glass-Tung-Sol-USA-Tests-Great-/281033259337?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item416ee33949


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





dminches said:


> What tube is this?  It looks like a fake to me.  The lettering on the base does not look real.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-NOS-Premium-VT-231-6SN7-Tube-Black-Glass-Tung-Sol-USA-Tests-Great-/281033259337?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item416ee33949


 
  To me it looks like a Ken-Rad. At least that's the way mine look.


----------



## rosgr63

Yes, it looks like a Ken-Rad VT-231


----------



## Sid-Fi

+1, haven't seen one with Tung Sol branding on it before thought, that does seem strange.
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Yes, it looks like a Ken-Rad VT-231


----------



## rosgr63

Here is 6SN7W rebranded as Heintz-Kaufman


----------



## dminches

Nice looking valve.


----------



## rosgr63

As you see David the addiction hasn't stopped.
   
  How can I refuse such a nice looking tube?
  I hope it sounds good.


----------



## dminches

It never stops.  I recently purchased 4 tubes and I don't have any equipment that uses them.  How sick is that?


----------



## rosgr63

Not really, I often buy vintage tubes which I can't and never will use.
   
  My excuse is that they look nice!!!!!


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Hello guys,
 A few months ago I posted in this thread, seeking for adivce, which was given to me and I am greatfull for that.
 I have completed my first audiophile set that includes La Figaro 336C amplifier with Chatham 6AS7G and Raytheon 6SN7GTB tubes, Beyerdynamic DT 990 600ohm and ODAC. I'm very happy with it and the tubes well worth their quite low price and made a difference compared to the stock ones.
 Now there comes a time when I would like to further invest into tubes as tuberolling looks fun, althought it's very hard to do so here from Europe where the shippment lasts forever.
 I have been doing the shopping on the site http://www.vacuumtubes.net and I will continue to do so.
 I have my eye on Tung-Sol 5998 together with Ken-Rad black glass ( is it the VT-231?) if it occurs to be the Ken Rad VT-231. Would you say anything about this set? Would you recommend me any other set of tubes till let's say 150$, the driver and output tube.
  Thank you for understaning.


----------



## Skylab

dminches said:


> It never stops.  I recently purchased 4 tubes and I don't have any equipment that uses them.  How sick is that?




I have whole collections of tubes that I don't have equipment for! But in my defense, most of those were for gear I used to own. Not all though! I have an incredible collection of 6SJ7GT's, 6SL7's, 6FD7/6DE7/6EW7, 6V6's, 12AU7's...none of which are needed by my current equipment.


----------



## dminches

Looks like remnants of your Woo and your AES PHI.  6SL7s are as fun to collect as 6SN7s.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





nomatterwhat said:


> Hello guys,
> A few months ago I posted in this thread, seeking for adivce, which was given to me and I am greatfull for that.
> I have completed my first audiophile set that includes La Figaro 336C amplifier with Chatham 6AS7G and Raytheon 6SN7GTB tubes, Beyerdynamic DT 990 600ohm and ODAC. I'm very happy with it and the tubes well worth their quite low price and made a difference compared to the stock ones.
> Now there comes a time when I would like to further invest into tubes as tuberolling looks fun, althought it's very hard to do so here from Europe where the shippment lasts forever.
> ...


 
   
  The Tung-Sol 5998 are very nice tubes.
  The Ken-Rad VT-231 are not everybody's favourite but worth trying.


----------



## Skylab

dminches said:


> Looks like remnants of your Woo and your AES PHI.  6SL7s are as fun to collect as 6SN7s.




Remnants of Woo, AES, DarkVoice, and Decware...


----------



## rosgr63

David I think we should start thinking about New Year's resolution from now.............* No More Tubes*
   
  How long do you think is going to last?


----------



## dminches

Stavros, New Years is on a Tuesday.  I doubt I will last the week if I have an internet connection.


----------



## rosgr63

*WOW!*
   
  That long?
   
  Mine may not see Tuesday afternoon, unless the therapy I am going through now works.


----------



## Skylab

David knows I was close to buying that lot of 1,000 Thompson France 6080WAs


----------



## rosgr63

Come on Rob, I thought you were here to chastise me and David so we stop buying tubes...........


----------



## Sid-Fi

ROFL because of you two...er three I'll go ahead and lump in Rob. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> *WOW!*
> 
> That long?
> 
> Mine may not see Tuesday afternoon, unless the therapy I am going through now works.


----------



## dminches

For the cost of therapy you could buy more tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks David, and I thought you were my friend!


----------



## Skylab

The really painful tube buying for me was quads of 6BQ5's/EL84's for my Leben, because good quads are big $$$.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> As you see David the addiction hasn't stopped.
> 
> How can I refuse such a nice looking tube?
> I hope it sounds good.


 
   
  Once you typed the word "hope" I knew you were doomed.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The really painful tube buying for me was quads of 6BQ5's/EL84's for my Leben, because good quads are big $$$.


 
   
  Now it's the 300B's
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Once you typed the word "hope" I knew you were doomed.


 
   
  You know me too well SO!


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Could you do me a favour and name current 6SN7 tubes worth the money till 60$? It's all changing and it would be very helpful for me just to narrow the number of tubes that I should look for.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Now it's the 300B's
> 
> 
> You know me too well SO!


 
  Yup.  I had four pairs of 45s bought long before we were even sure I would be able to use them.  I just........ wanted them.  It's a good thing there aren't slot machines that dispense tubes as winnings.  Then again sometimes tube buying feels just like gambling I suppose.
   
  I always justify it by reciting the fact of limited supply.  When you see a pair of 1930's Hytron 45s in their original boxes with the _sealing staples_ still on the carton flaps you don't just say to yourself "oh, maybe next time" right?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





nomatterwhat said:


> Could you do me a favour and name current 6SN7 tubes worth the money till 60$? It's all changing and it would be very helpful for me just to narrow the number of tubes that I should look for.


 

 IMO the best balanced and most resolving tube you can get for that price is the mouse ear Tung Sol 6SN7GT t-plate.  There are myriad 6SN7GTBs that sound quite good for well under that budget too.  Raytheon, Sylvania and Tung Sol GTB tubes are all worth trying.


----------



## Skylab

If we are talking under $60 per tube, then there are lots of options. Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA, Tung Sol WGTA, Hytron tall bottle 6SN7GT are all ones I like. Oh and the Sylvania coin-base 6SN7GTB, too.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Yup.  I had four pairs of 45s bought long before we were even sure I would be able to use them.  I just........ wanted them.  It's a good thing there aren't slot machines that dispense tubes as winnings.  Then again sometimes tube buying feels just like gambling I suppose.
> 
> I always justify it by reciting the fact of limited supply.  When you see a pair of 1930's Hytron 45s in their original boxes with the _sealing staples_ still on the carton flaps you don't just say to yourself "oh, maybe next time" right?


 
   
  You hit the nail on the head. Sometimes you see a tube and you just want it. The other day I saw on eBay a mint-looking Mullard ECC35, short brown base. The lettering on the tube is completely in tact. I had to have it.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hats off to Xcalibur255!
   
  When it came to splurging on tubes way above my means (TS-BGRP's), I found myself sitting on the fence..._uncomfortably so. _Yet, I simply couldn't just hop back down into the yard from which I leapt. A condition of _price premium paralysis, _I suppose.
   
  I heard from many a fellow mate all offering reason. Only Xcalibur255 offered what I considered to be sound reasoning. And I quickly jumped into the seller's backyard before realizing they weren't awake yet. I made a quick exit until the sun came up, lest I be mistaken for thug or a coopler!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dminches said:


> You hit the nail on the head. Sometimes you see a tube and you just want it. The other day I saw on eBay a mint-looking Mullard ECC35, short brown base. The lettering on the tube is completely in tact. I had to have it.


 
  You just reminded me that I've been wanting to try that tube in the OTL.  I suspect the high gain might rule out pairing it with the 5998s though.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Yup.  I had four pairs of 45s bought long before we were even sure I would be able to use them.  I just........ wanted them.  It's a good thing there aren't slot machines that dispense tubes as winnings.  Then again sometimes tube buying feels just like gambling I suppose.
> 
> I always justify it by reciting the fact of limited supply.  When you see a pair of 1930's Hytron 45s in their original boxes with the _sealing staples_ still on the carton flaps you don't just say to yourself "oh, maybe next time" right?


 
   
  That would be sacrilege.........
   
  I don't even want to think about it.
   
  I think the ECC33 will be a much better choice.
  The ECC35 is very similar to the 6SL7.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Is a 85$ good deal for Tung-Sol 5998 now? Also, what would you prefer from your experience, Tung-Sol "Bad Boy" or Tung-sol mouse ears? I want to pair it with La Figaro 336C and my "V-shaped" headphones DT990.


----------



## rosgr63

If you ere referring to Sylvania "Bad Boy" I prefer the Tung-Sol "Mouse Ears".
  But that's me, wait for others to comment before you proceed.


----------



## mrAdrian

336 FTW!
   
  The Sylvania tubes sounds warmer with a thicker and sweeter midrange to me, smoother sounding; and the mouse ears sound more neutral, SS. I might try the Sylvania for your "V-shaped" headphones DT990, but NO I don't have experience with the Sylvania Bad Boy.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Thank you for advice, but could you tell me which Sylvania do you refer to?
   
  Edit.
  Ah, sorry nevermind, I have just noticed that you are talking about "Bad Boy".
 What would you say about some VT-231 with DT990, which ones could be good?


----------



## hifimanrookie

nomatterwhat said:


> Is a 85$ good deal for Tung-Sol 5998 now? Also, what would you prefer from your experience, Tung-Sol "Bad Boy" or Tung-sol mouse ears? I want to pair it with La Figaro 336C and my "V-shaped" headphones DT990.



I actually have a pair of NOS 5998 on their way to me from the states and exactly 85usd a piece..i think its fair pricing.

EDIT: guys i need ur help..while waiting for my 5998 and 5693's a friend of mine is willing to sell me his collection of tubes they are all matched NOS sets and 

for the drivers he wants 50 euro per pair and for the powertubes he wants 70

This is what he has for me..i can buy each pair seperately also


nos in box matchet pairs : power Rca 6as7G uit 1953
 Ge 6as7g 
 chatham 6as7G

 signal: silvania 6sj7gt (metal base mesh plate)
 philips 6sj7wgt (metal base mesh plate)
 philips miniwatt 6sj7gt (made by mullard) mesh plate
 rca 5693 (red hot!)

 signal used but tested 80% + rca 6sj7 
 ken rad 6sj7
 ge 6sj7

Can u pls advice which ones are worth to buy

Thanks guys ur the best!


----------



## Mr.Sneis

I swear I had to wait an eternity for this adapter to arrive but 6F8G tubes are pretty good!


----------



## rosgr63

The RCA 6F8G 50's version is a super tube!
   
  Enjoy it!


----------



## dminches

Stavros, gives us a quick run down on the various 6F8Gs.


----------



## mikey8811

Cary SLP 05 Preamp - Mixing Phase Splitter 6SN7 Tubes 
 After a long trial and error process (also replacing the power cord with a Sablon Audio Robusto), I may have arrived at the combination of 6SN7 tubes that work best in my system. It has taken a long long time and I would like to thank many of the guys here who helped with their comments.

 What I ended up with is:

 Tubes 1 & 2 (the front two tubes from the left)(L & R channel positive phase gain – buffers) - RCA Grey Glass 6SN7 GT

 Tubes 4 & 5 (the back two tubes from the left)(L & R channel negative phase gain – buffers) - National Union Black Glass 6SN7 GT

 Tubes 3 & 6 (the front and back tubes on the third column from the left)(L & R channel balanced input buffers) - RCA Grey Glass 6SN7 GT

 My question now is can I mix the phase splitter tube pairs with different brands as I have so that the positive phase gain tubes are one brand and the negative phase gain tubes are another? I like these results the best so far except for some sibilance in the treble which I didn't have when I used the same brand ie. all RCA Grey Glass. Is this damaging?

 Occasionally, the sibilance sounds like minor clipping but this cannot be the result of insufficient current driving the speakers because there is plenty to spare.

 Thanks


----------



## rosgr63

OK.
   
  From what I remember TS come in three plate types Flat, Round and Oval.
   
  I like the NU and Raytheon Round plates (not the same round plates as TS).
  Some say the NU are noisy.
   
  The Sylvania come with T-plates and the RCA and Ken-Rad with Flat plates.
   
  If I had to pick one 6F8G it would be the RCA as a cheap all round nice sounding tube. 
   
  I have posted photos of the different types earlier on in the thread, but can do so again.


----------



## Skylab

It wouldn't be the brand that would be the issue. It would be how well matched the tubes all are. If their transconductance was all identical, then eclectically the circuit cares not about the brand. That's not to say there are not sonic differences, but not that wold cause the SLP-05 to misbehave.

BTW great preamp, I love mine


----------



## dminches

I too own an SLP-05.  Before I try to answer your question I have one for you.  How did you figure out the tube positions and what does what?  I ask because I though each front and back tube were a pair.  From your description it sound like for the first 4 tubes from the left, the front 2 and back 2 are a pair.  And then the 3rd pair is a front and back pair.


----------



## mikey8811

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I too own an SLP-05.  Before I try to answer your question I have one for you.  How did you figure out the tube positions and what does what?  I ask because I though each front and back tube were a pair.  From your description it sound like for the first 4 tubes from the left, the front 2 and back 2 are a pair.  And then the 3rd pair is a front and back pair.


 

 dminches, it's in the manual.
   

   
   
  1. 6SN7 tube – left channel positive phase gain – buffer
 2. 6SN7 tube – right channel positive phase gain – buffer
 3. 6SN7 tube – left channel balanced input buffer
 4. 6SN7 tube – left channel negative phase gain – buffer
 5. 6SN7 tube – right channel negative phase gain – buffer
 6. 6SN7 tube – right channel balanced input buffer
 7. 6SN7 tube – right channel headphone amplifier
 8. 6SN7 tube – left channel headphone amplifier
   
  Please correct me if I am wrong but you would use:
   
  i) a matched pair for the L & R  + ve phase gain (Tubes 1 & 2) and a matched pair for the L & R - ve phase gain (Tubes 4 & 5)
   
  rather than
   
  ii) a matched pair for the L channel both + ve & -ve phase gain (Tubes 1 & 4) and a matched pair for the  R channel both + ve & - ve phase gain (Tubes 2 & 5)
   
  correct?


----------



## dminches

Yes. You want the channels to be balanced. That is the important part.


----------



## mikey8811

Quote: 





skylab said:


> It wouldn't be the brand that would be the issue. It would be how well matched the tubes all are. If their transconductance was all identical, then eclectically the circuit cares not about the brand. That's not to say there are not sonic differences, but not that wold cause the SLP-05 to misbehave.
> BTW great preamp, I love mine


 

 Hi Skylab
   
  The transconductance are close from the high 90's to low 100's. It's just the brands and obviously the constructions are different yielding a different sound.


----------



## rosgr63

I have found out that the same make & type 6SN7 but of different batch can sound different.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Indeed.  They were made by human hands afterall.  There were lots of possibilities for variation from sample to sample, both from the people assembling them and the equipment on the particular line it was coming off of.  Especially the ones from the 40's and early 50's before some of the major processes were automated by machines.


----------



## Clevor

Just bought some Kenrad black glass VT-231. They sound fine, but if you pause the CD or between discs, when you tap gently on the base or glass, you can hear the faint tapping on the speakers. One tube is slightly louder than the other. Is this normal as I heard these tubes tend to be microphonic? No howling or squealing or hums or static noises though. A pair of clean NOS like this is hard to find, so I'm inclined to keep them if this is normal.


----------



## Xcalibur255

This is pretty normal for Ken-Rads.  If yours are quiet when they are not picking up vibration then you did pretty good.


----------



## rosgr63

Her's a couple more B65's on their way:


----------



## dminches

Where are you finding these?


----------



## rosgr63

Come on David, sometimes I get lucky, that's all.....


----------



## dminches

I don't know, Stavors.  You seem to win the lottery all too often...


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> From what I remember TS come in three plate types Flat ...


 
   
  I find the TS flat-plate 6F8G a bit on the flat side. The TS 5998 is very dynamic, even too dynamic at times. It is perhaps not too surprising, in hindsight, that they work very beautifully together.
   
  Just an observation, to my ears, in my amp, as usual.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I don't know, Stavors.  You seem to win the lottery all too often...


 
   
  Rookies luck?
   
  I get some sour lemons too.


----------



## dminches

Can someone identify the manufacturer of this?
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-Wards-Super-Airline-6F8G-dual-triode-tubes-NOS-/251195828361?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a7c702889


----------



## rosgr63

It's probably Ken-Rad with flat staggered plates.


----------



## mikey8811

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Indeed.  They were made by human hands afterall.  There were lots of possibilities for variation from sample to sample, both from the people assembling them and the equipment on the particular line it was coming off of.  Especially the ones from the 40's and early 50's before some of the major processes were automated by machines.


 

 Xcalibur, The Grey Glass RCA & NU Black Glass combination came close to the Grey Glass RCA & 1950's Sylvania Chrome Dome GT of the construction you like. The latter combination (had a quad of RCA's in the phase splitter positions and the Sylvania's in the gain buffers) was better on vocals and jazz - female vocals were more lilting and there was more air albeit smooth in the treble. Bass though was slightly soft.
   
  With the NU's, pop and rock sounded better, the sound was fuller and more punchy.
   
  Unfortunately, the Sylvania's are hard to come by. I have been looking for them with not much success. The NU's pop up every now and then.
   
  By the way, how do CBS Hytron's (black base, white label) or CBS (black base red label) compare to these tubes?


----------



## rosgr63

I tried the Sylvania Xcalibur mentioned in my Glenn OTL amp and found it ordinary.
  For that system I prefer the FIVRE 6SN7.
   
  The Hytron comes in various types, early(Hytron logo) and late(CBS-Hytron, logo) versions, two and three hole plates.
  Which are the ones you are referring to?


----------



## mikey8811

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I tried the Sylvania Xcalibur mentioned in my Glenn OTL amp and found it ordinary.
> For that system I prefer the FIVRE 6SN7.
> 
> The Hytron comes in various types, early(Hytron logo) and late(CBS-Hytron, logo) versions, two and three hole plates.
> Which are the ones you are referring to?


 

 These ones. 2 hole plate. Are they different?
   

   

   
  How do they sound vis-a-vis the 3 hole plate?


----------



## Xcalibur255

mikey, they should be the same.  If the type logo is stamped on the top with a circle around it that is the easiest way to spot Hytron T-plates.  Great tubes, they have an amazing midrange and are full bodied.  If you like the NU sound this is an improvement upon it in my personal opinion whilst having fallen from the same tree so to speak.  I've tried to like the NUs, they are quite dynamic and sometimes there is real magic in the mids but half the time they sound wrong tonally and are just too soft at both ends of the spectrum.
   
  rosgr, I'm starting to wonder if maybe it is just me after all with these Sylvanias.  There is no tube I would take over it except for the round plate tung sol but whenever anybody else tries them they find it to be average.  Maybe mine are unique somehow?  All the ones I have came from the same batch code after all.  I own other Sylvania t-plates, bad boys, the Ws and none of them compare to this tube if you ask me.  They're just so amazingly transparent to my ears.


----------



## rosgr63

These two pairs should sound similar.
  I have not done extensive tests with 3 hole Hytrons, I have read they sound more analytical.
   
  I see you got the second pair from an Australian seller.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> mikey, they should be the same.  If the type logo is stamped on the top with a circle around it that is the easiest way to spot Hytron T-plates.  Great tubes, they have an amazing midrange and are full bodied.  If you like the NU sound this is an improvement upon it in my personal opinion whilst having fallen from the same tree so to speak.  I've tried to like the NUs, they are quite dynamic and sometimes there is real magic in the mids but half the time they sound wrong tonally and are just too soft at both ends of the spectrum.
> 
> rosgr, I'm starting to wonder if maybe it is just me after all with these Sylvanias.  There is no tube I would take over it except for the round plate tung sol but whenever anybody else tries them they find it to be average.  Maybe mine are unique somehow?  All the ones I have came from the same batch code after all.  I own other Sylvania t-plates, bad boys, the Ws and none of them compare to this tube if you ask me.  They're just so amazingly transparent to my ears.


 
   
  I think it's down to personal preferences.
  I have a  selection of 6SN7W metal, tall, short etc. I find one particular batch of 6SN7W's (Short Base, lower mica inside the base) one of my very best 6SN7's. 
  Like yours they could be unique.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

I can't find anything in the 6SN7 reference thread about this tube : [size=medium]brownbase JAN Raytheon Military grade, black plates, [/size][size=medium]The 1950s JAN Raytheon resemble the VT-231 types, but with brown bases. Large, flat ribbed black . 
 Could you tell me something about them, their sound and would they fit my V-shaped headphones? I ask because I found them at resonable price and I would like to compare them to others.[/size]


----------



## rosgr63

Is this the one you are referring to?


----------



## NoMatterWhat

I don't know I just posted you the description that is on a site selling this tube. You should tell me if it is the one . I think it is probably it, because from what I understand it should be VT-231 resembled with brown bases into some 6SN7GT/WGT/WGTA. What is your experience with this tube?


----------



## rosgr63

If you can post a photo it would be easier to identify it.
   
  Some tubes have the "wrong" markings, so one has to look at it to be sure.
   
  The tubes I showed above are very nice tubes and worth trying.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

What about [size=medium]5692 JAN CBS-Hytron, could you tell me if it is a good investment for 70$ or I can find better tube? I have been reading that it is supposed to be a great tube with great midrange.[/size]


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tube and better sounding than the RCA 5692 IMHO.
   
  Your system configuration/synergy and personal preferences have a lot to do with which tube is best for you.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Your system configuration/synergy and personal preferences have a lot to do with which tube is best for you.


 
   
  Stavros, that kind of comment will get you elected president of the valve club.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks David you are very kind.
   
  I don't want to raise users expectations.
   
  I enjoy some of my $10 tubes as much as those costing $$$.
  Price is not the only criterion when it comes to choosing tubes.


----------



## dminches

Absolutely.  And one's expectations have a big effect too.


----------



## hifimanrookie

dminches said:


> Absolutely.  And one's expectations have a big effect too.



Yep and the amp ur using them in


----------



## Silent One

When my TS-BGRP's arrived, my expectations were HUGE. Nearly an hour went by before I realized it wasn't going to cook me dinner.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





silent one said:


> When my TS-BGRP's arrived, my expectations were HUGE. Nearly an hour went by before I realized it wasn't going to cook me dinner.


 
   
  True, but it could sing while you did the cooking...


----------



## Xcalibur255

People who find favorites amongst the cheap tubes are the lucky ones.  Better to find happiness for $5 than for $500.


----------



## Sid-Fi

From my limited observations on my setup, I think the true strength of the TS BGRP is how it doesn't seem to do anything wrong. It is very well balanced, nuetral, and resolving. Because of that, I can see how it might lack an initial "wow" factor like my RCA VT 231 smoke glass can have. However, over the long run, it seems that not doing anything wrong is much harder to find and much more important to long-term enjoyment than being amazing in a few areas, but having noticable weaknesses in others.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> When my TS-BGRP's arrived, my expectations were HUGE. Nearly an hour went by before I realized it wasn't going to cook me dinner.


----------



## Neogeo333

In my system the TS BGRP 6sn7 are kind of lifeless. Still better than the "cheap" ones.  But given there price I surely expected more.  My only cheap tube that sounds good is a Lansdale 7n7.  Cost me lest than 20.00 for a pair.  Also Mullard ECC32 sounds average for the price, while their ECC35 sounds better to my ears.  All this is on my current amp.  Can not wait to try them with the Cavalli Liquid Glass.


----------



## DefQon

To me, so far I have not found anything better sounding than a expensive 1940's Sylvania VT-231 military spec'd tube (part of the 'GT' suffix line of the 6SN7 series). Amp > my modded DV336SE. Have yet to try it in my Crack though.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Absolutely.  And one's expectations have a big effect too.


 
   
  Indeed, can even cloud judgment!
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> When my TS-BGRP's arrived, my expectations were HUGE. Nearly an hour went by before I realized it wasn't going to cook me dinner.


 
   
  I had huge expectations from some tubes which were  never fulfilled.
  One of them is the Swedish Standard 33S30, very rare and collectible but doesn't sound $$$ better than some others.
   
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> People who find favorites amongst the cheap tubes are the lucky ones.  Better to find happiness for $5 than for $500.


 
   
  This is the state of Nirvana.
  It's in the human nature never to be satisfied, and I am very guilty.
   
  Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> From my limited observations on my setup, I think the true strength of the TS BGRP is how it doesn't seem to do anything wrong. It is very well balanced, nuetral, and resolving. Because of that, I can see how it might lack an initial "wow" factor like my RCA VT 231 smoke glass can have. However, over the long run, it seems that not doing anything wrong is much harder to find and much more important to long-term enjoyment than being amazing in a few areas, but having noticable weaknesses in others.


 
   
  To me the fact that a tube excels in one area is what makes some tubes so exceptional and magical.


----------



## Silent One

When I first brought the TS-BGRP's in, I had issues upstream on the digital side. Other tube pairings masked the timing and reflection issues I was having. Perhaps, I should offer that nothing wrong really stood out or leaped out at me. 
   
  For whatever reason, the USAF-596/TS-BGRP pairing was the first pairing to sound noticeably wrong. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Swapped in the EML Glass, things improved... a lot. Then paired the EML with the Ray 6SN7W's, things are still fine. Swapped  the Mighty 596 back in with the Rays, no problem. Only when the USAF-596/TS-BGRP's  became dance partners, did the wheels come clean off the bus!
   
  After consulting with Steve (Empirical Audio), I took his advice to change the length of my digital cable. Problem solved with the premium pairing. But all other pairings weren't noticeable. I also kept both cables for about three months and once a month I'd take the new cable out just to check on things - the new cable stays. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Further, the previous cable was new, and the same model just shorter in length than the newest one. So, it was this experience on day one, that nearly led me to list them that same night. It took three weeks to resolve things - Xcalibur255 kept me from pulling the trigger. I almost blew 'em out the door for 0.99 cents each!!!
   
  Ah....but that first session when things were right. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was all alone with Astrud Gilberto, Angela Bofill and Phyllis Hyman, listening sweetly as the world turned outside the listening room.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Nice tube and better sounding than the RCA 5692 IMHO.
> 
> Your system configuration/synergy and personal preferences have a lot to do with which tube is best for you.


 
  It's true that it is about my personal preferences but one has to ask for help because one doesn't know what tube would be good for one's setup. The one is me and I have read the reference thread of 6SN7 many times and I know how they sound but I have no idea which one would be good for my setup, it's mainly the V-shaped headphones that make the decision hard for me.


----------



## Skylab

Tubes are just like all other gear. We all have different predilections !!! I've never thought the RCA Red-base 5692 was a particularly good sounding tube, for example. I like the grey-glass RCA much, much better. And I think the TS BGRP are absolutely wonderful.


----------



## rosgr63

I feel exactly the same Rob, that's why I thought the 33S30 were far too expensive for a 5692 type of sound.
   
  Then again the RCA 5692 were made by GE and I don't think GE ever made any nice 6SN7's.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





nomatterwhat said:


> It's true that it is about my personal preferences but one has to ask for help because one doesn't know what tube would be good for one's setup. The one is me and I have read the reference thread of 6SN7 many times and I know how they sound but I have no idea which one would be good for my setup, it's mainly the V-shaped headphones that make the decision hard for me.


 
   
   
  If you are looking to boost the mids I would try an ECC33 or ECC32 if your amp can handle it.
  Be careful the ECC32 draws a higher heater current than a 6SN7 they are not equivalent, best check with your amp maker first.


----------



## NoMatterWhat

Uh, I don't know I have La Figaro 336C, I think it's almost the same as DarkVoice 336i, anyone could help there who owned any of them ? 
 It's not like with current setup I lack midrange but what tube can I buy for V-shaped headphones if not a midrange tube,I really like good tight and deep bass though.
 If you are open to share a bit of knowledge with me, could you tell me what is your opinion about Tung-Sol WGT brown base ? 
 Why you are not so keen on CBS 5692, are they not worth the price? Could you tell me how they sound because in the reference thread there is a little about it.
 The thing is that my power tube (bigger one) is quite good I should say it's Chatham 6AS7G but the front tube is just Raytheon 6SN7GTB, so I'm just looking for an overall improvement, I like the signature that it has now but I believe that I can get more from this setup.


----------



## rosgr63

I don't have a La Figaro or Dark Voice amp so I don't know how these amps sound and my comments may not be valid.
   
  I am very open and like to share my experiences with others but I cannot predict how a tube will sound in an amp I don't have.
   
  I don't like the presentation of 5692 tubes but the CBS are better sounding than the RCA ones.
  There is a black base GE 5692 which sounds like the rest of them.
  If you like the 5692 type sound the best are the Swedish Standard 33S30 but they are very expensive.
  BTW lots of people like the 5692 sound.
   
  The Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT is a great tube, I like it.
   
  On the opposite side to the ECC33 is the CCCP Melz 1578 which has a good bass and highs but the mids are flat.
   
  I agree you can improve the sound of your amp, but trial and error is necessary.
  The GTB family has a good base so you might loose some of that, but the TS 6SN7WGT is worth a try.


----------



## 333jeffery

How are the Sophia Electric/Fullmusic 6SN7 tubes?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





nomatterwhat said:


> The thing is that my power tube (bigger one) is quite good I should say it's Chatham 6AS7G but the front tube is just Raytheon 6SN7GTB, so I'm just looking for an overall improvement, I like the signature that it has now but I believe that I can get more from this setup.


 
  Your current pairing sounds pretty decent to me.  The Raytheons are good tubes, much better than what came with your amp.


----------



## Spakka

Quote: 





333jeffery said:


> How are the Sophia Electric/Fullmusic 6SN7 tubes?


 
   
   
  I just received a pair this morning, will let you know when they're sufficiently burned in. 
   
  Edit: The fullmusic ones that is


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Have the Sophia Electric ones, ordered them together with a Princess 274B mesh plate. First listen I honestly didn't like them at all. After some hiatus, I tried them again recently (with a slightly different combination) and actually thought they were OK, but nothing particularly outstanding.
   
  Maybe some other combination of tubes would bring out their best but frankly when it comes to new/current production tubes, I'll take my pair of Psvane CV181s any day: very punchy, great for rock (most exciting rendition of my favourite Porcupine Tree tracks for example) but sometimes a bit much for other genres where I prefer a mellower selection.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Someone once said the Sophia/TJs sound like a mouse ear Tung Sol.  That is actually pretty high praise if it is true.  I've been tempted to try one myself, but I'm afraid of kicking off another round of 6SN7 buying when I finally got over the habit.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





333jeffery said:


> How are the Sophia Electric/Fullmusic 6SN7 tubes?


 
  Haven't heard the Sophia based 6SN7 tube's but I have their 12AU7's and by god, value for money and the Psvane 12AU7T's they are better than those $400 vintage Diamond base Telefunken or Genalex Gold-Lion's by far.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Someone once said the Sophia/TJs sound like a mouse ear Tung Sol.  That is actually pretty high praise if it is true.  I've been tempted to try one myself, but I'm afraid of kicking off another round of 6SN7 buying when I finally got over the habit.


 
   
  Cured from 6SN7 addiction?
  This is a serious statement..........
   
  The day a re-issue sounds close to the black plates Tung Sol Mouse Ears will be the day I'll stop buying vintage 6SN7's!


----------



## Silent One

Uh-oh, rosgr63 is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 throwing it down!_ Get ur popcorn ready..._


----------



## rosgr63

If Xcalibur found a cure there is still hope for me...............


----------



## Oskari

You are well beyond all hope, Stavros, _beyond all hope._


----------



## 333jeffery

I've had good luck with the Sophia 6SL7's in other amps. They sound much better than most of the reissued tubes out there. They look to be made by the same folks that make the TJ Fullmusic tubes.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

I have officially sold my Liquid Fire and have a Super 7 on the way to pair with my HD800s... which means it's time to read all 205 pages of this thread!
   
  My plan is to start with the stock tubes (TS reissues), then substitute my modest 6SN7 collection into the driver position and move backwards.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> If Xcalibur found a cure there is still hope for me...............


 
  Not a cure, just forced withdrawal.  I have bigger fish to catch with my highly limited funds, as you are aware.


----------



## Silent One

Stay strong, Xcalibur255! And if that catch is deep-fried
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll be right over!!!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> I have officially sold my Liquid Fire and have a Super 7 on the way to pair with my HD800s... which means it's time to read all 205 pages of this thread!
> 
> My plan is to start with the stock tubes (TS reissues), then substitute my modest 6SN7 collection into the driver position and move backwards.


 
   
  Congratulations, The Super 7 is a fine amp.
  What 6SN7's do you plan to use?


----------



## NoMatterWhat

I have one more question as I have now a few tubes selected that I will think about and choose between them.
 Do you think that Tung-Sol Mouse-ear is a contender for 45$ price or I would be better off buying Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT brown base or 60 $ or maybe a choice between mouse ear and RCA grey glass ?
 I'm leaning towards Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT, RCA Vt-231 grey glass and CBS-Hytron 5692 in the first place, will not order all at once but these are the tubes that I want right now. Do you think that mouse-ear has better spot than any of them?


----------



## rosgr63

There is a Tung-Sol without the mouse ears that sounds exactly the same at half the price, but $50 is a good price for mouse ears.
  Make sure there is no crack on the base at that price.
   
  The Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT, and RCA VT-231 are also very nice tubes.
  I would get the CBS-Hytron last.
   
  Here are the Tung-Sol I am talking about (the end ones), but ask Xcalibur first to be sure


----------



## rosgr63

*5692 List*
   
  I know of the following 5692's, maybe others can help to complete the list, there also rebrands but these are the main ones:
   
*GE*
  Brown & Black Base
   
*RCA*
  Brown Base
   
*CBS/CBS-Hytron*
  Brown & Black Base
   
*Sylvania*
  Brown Base, Medium Bottle (Yellow Label) and Short Bottle (Green Label)


----------



## Skylab

I have seen black-base RCA's labeled 5692. They look like run of the mill 6SN7GTB's though.


----------



## rosgr63

Yes, I have some too.
   
  The ones I mentioned above are all triple mica with flat plates and extra support rods, true 5692's not re-labeled GTB's.


----------



## Oskari

Where do the RCA red base 5692s fit in?


----------



## rosgr63

Maybe we can consider the RCA Red Base as a variant of the brown base?
   
  I don't have a Sylvania Black Base, but I think they also exist.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Congratulations, The Super 7 is a fine amp.
> What 6SN7's do you plan to use?


 
   
  Thanks, looking forward to it. My 6SN7 collection is even more sparse than I recalled. I currently have:
   
  1 pair Tung-Sol JAN CTL 6SN7WGTA (Manuf. Date June 1964) (Brown base)
  1 pair Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7WGTA (Manuf. Date Jan. 1966) (Brown base)
   
  That's it for now. We'll see how each of these sounds in the driver position and go from there.
   
  Anyone with specific Super 7 suggestions is welcome to post them here... there are many other observations here and elsewhere, of course.


----------



## rosgr63

These nice WGTA's are a good starting point.
   
  I would experiment with some single drivers like an RCA smoked glass, an early Tung-Sol and a T-plates Sylvania before going into more output pairs.
   
  The driver usually makes a bigger change than the output tubes.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Maybe we can consider the RCA Red Base as a variant of the brown base?


 
   
  That's fine. I was wondering whether there is one that is distinctly red and one that is distinctly brown as opposed to perhaps a continuum of reddish browns.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> These nice WGTA's are a good starting point.
> 
> I would experiment with some single drivers like an RCA smoked glass, an early Tung-Sol and a T-plates Sylvania before going into more output pairs.
> 
> The driver usually makes a bigger change than the output tubes.


 

 just to make sure i understand it right..output tubes=power tubes... right?? i understood from the one i bought my amp is that the power tubes makes biggest impact on sound and not the drivers....but maybe i understood it wrongly? my 337 only has driver tubes (smaller tubes) and the power tubes (bigger tubes)..so now hearing the drivers makes more impact on sound makes me a bit confused...


----------



## rosgr63

The output tube is the power tube, the 6AS7G is the output tube.
   
  In a lot of designs the driver affects the sound the most.
   
  Some amps use a driver(s), an input(s) and output(power) tubes.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The output tube is the power tube, the 6AS7G is the output tube.
> 
> In a lot of designs the driver affects the sound the most.
> 
> Some amps use a driver(s), an input(s) and output(power) tubes.


 

 oh ok..thanks for explaning..didnt know that..so now i just have to find out myself which of the two affects the sound the most on my 337..well..i have 3 pairs of driver tubes (tung sol, rca reds, sylvania's) and 3 pairs of output tubes (bendix/tung sol/chatham)..so i am goin to have lots of fun finding out..


----------



## Skylab

rosgr63 said:


> Maybe we can consider the RCA Red Base as a variant of the brown base?
> 
> I don't have a Sylvania Black Base, but I think they also exist.




Actually, I think all RCA 5692's have a red base, not brown, if we are being picky about it


----------



## rosgr63

Yes they are, so the list will change to:
   
   
 *5692 List*
   
  I know of the following 5692's, maybe others can help to complete the list, there also rebrands but these are the main ones:
   
*GE*
  Brown & Black Base
   
*RCA*
  Red Base
   
*CBS/CBS-Hytron*
  Brown & Black Base
   
*Sylvania*
  Brown Base, Medium Bottle (Yellow Label) and Short Bottle (Green Label)


----------



## Sid-Fi

I have found on the WA22 that the rectifier tube seems to have the most dramatic effect on the sound. Also, I have found that the sound can very significantly just mixing and matching rectifiers with different driver tubes. One driver is great with a certain rectifier, and worse with another. But I'm just a young pup around here .
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The output tube is the power tube, the 6AS7G is the output tube.
> 
> In a lot of designs the driver affects the sound the most.
> 
> Some amps use a driver(s), an input(s) and output(power) tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

Very valid points, thanks.
   
  Don't forget there are amps that use SS rectification.


----------



## Sid-Fi

Yeah, definitely. That's why I mentioned my observations applying specifically to my WA22. I wonder how much the power tubes would impact things. I have had the Sylvania 7236 from day one and have never rolled anything else there. I have only tried recitfiers and driver tubes so far.
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Very valid points, thanks.
> 
> Don't forget there are amps that use SS rectification.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





sid-fi said:


> I have found on the WA22 that the rectifier tube seems to have the most dramatic effect on the sound. Also, I have found that the sound can very significantly just mixing and matching rectifiers with different driver tubes. One driver is great with a certain rectifier, and worse with another. But I'm just a young pup around here .


 
  Rectifiers with different amounts of voltage drop will affect the operating behavior of all the other tubes, so it can indeed have a strong affect on the sound.  The quality of the power supply is a large part of how an amp performs and the rectifier is the heart of a tube amp's power supply.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

So I got an order from Vacuumtubes.net, accepting substitutions (no pics or detailed descriptions on their site anyway). Which is like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates: you're never quite sure what you'll find when you open the box. In this case my first Mullard-type GZ37 turned out to be from a brand called Zaerix (Z & I Aero Services Ltd., London, England) and I'm quite enjoying it, seems pretty mellow in the current setup.
   
  But more on topic, I got my first couple of supposed Tung-Sol 6SN7s, of which one turned out to not be a Tung-Sol... not sure if it was a substitution as such since somebody hand-wrote Tung-Sol on the box anyway and they may not have checked inside. They are both clear glass tall bottle w/ top getter & angle plates, look identical and measurements are pretty similar, certainly in the same range I'd get from a pair of other actually identical-make tubes. I can't hear any particular issue left to right myself.
   
  Anything I should concerned about? The make is "Reliable", not familiar with them. See pic below, it's the one in the foreground (Tung-Sol in the back)


----------



## rosgr63

They are GTB type tubes, they look of the same construction.
  IMHO there is nothing to be concerned about, just enjoy them.


----------



## Oskari

Yep, both Tung-Sols, and the rectifier was clearly made by Mullard and should have a Mullard code on it.


----------



## Skylab

Zaerix tubes are truly a surprise in the box every time. Often Mullard, STC, or other very nice tubes. Sometimes Russian, of Japanese. They were only a rebrander, so you just don't know.


----------



## dminches

I have been listening to a pair of TS 6F8G RPs in my Modwright Oppo. These are very fine tubes. I would have to put them in my top 5 of 6SN7/6F8G list.


----------



## Neogeo333

I have to say that Im not alone if I say the TS 6f8g RP sounds better than their 6sn7 counterpart?
  I have both their round and oval mica of the 6f8g and its sounds better to me than their 6sn7 RP oval mica.
  Even have a rare 6f8g square mica from TS that havent tried yet.


----------



## dminches

Have you found a material difference in the sound between the round and oval mica 6F8G?


----------



## Neogeo333

They sound very similar but the round mica sounds better to me.  Just a tad more musical.  I could live with either one but if i had to choose I would take the round mica.  Have not tried the 6sn7 round mica though.


----------



## rosgr63

There is also a Ken-Rad 6F8G with oval plates worth trying.
   
  The TS 6F8G with the square mica have flat plates, and are not so rare in my opinion.
   
  The 6SN7 with square mica on the other hand is very rare.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





oskari said:


> the rectifier was clearly made by Mullard and should have a Mullard code on it.


 
   
  As a matter of fact, the code also tells us whether that valve is a GZ33 (rS) or a GZ37 (IS).


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Well, I checked, what I could read is ISI (or IS1) 87F5. Not sure what the other numbers mean, I guess the serial number? Still much to learn...


----------



## Oskari

That's IS1 B7F5. IS = GZ37; B = Mullard, Blackburn; 7F5 = 5th week of June 19?7. I'd guess 1967.
   

 http://tubedata.milbert.com/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf


----------



## musicman59

neogeo333 said:


> I have to say that Im not alone if I say the TS 6f8g RP sounds better than their 6sn7 counterpart?
> I have both their round and oval mica of the 6f8g and its sounds better to me than their 6sn7 RP oval mica.
> Even have a rare 6f8g square mica from TS that havent tried yet.



I agree with you. I own both and also prefer the 6F8G.


----------



## rosgr63

If anybody is interested at a nice quad or pair of ECC32's let me know.
  These are not my own tubes but belong to a friend.


----------



## dminches

Here's what my daughter and I did all day:


----------



## 2359glenn

Ware did you get that?


----------



## dminches

Rob (Skylab) sent me a high resolution jpg of his tube closet and I had the puzzle made. It is pretty good quality.


----------



## Skylab

David was kind enough to send me one, but I haven't been bold enough to tackle it yet


----------



## Xcalibur255

Ha!  I knew I wasn't crazy.  The second I saw it I thought "that looks like the photo of Rob's tube closet."  
   
  What a cool idea.


----------



## dminches

You not only know tubes but you know tube closets too!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Here's what my daughter and I did all day:


 
   
  dminches, that's beautiful! Yeah, where did you get it? Ok,
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 just read upward after this post. That's an excellent idea!!!


----------



## rosgr63

That's very nice David!
  But you haven't finished yet, you must stand the right tubes boxed on top of the puzzle............


----------



## dminches

Due to Rob's kindness I actually have a half dozen of the boxes in the puzzle in my possession.


----------



## Silent One

_That's special..._


----------



## tonereef

Any opinions about Canadian Marconi 6SN7 GTB as output tubes for a DIY amp for Stax 009? The amp sounds great to me, way better than with the Sovteks that were in it before (not surprisingly).


----------



## Skylab

Not sure but the Canadian GE 6SN7WGTA's are super nice tubes. Real sleepers. Very balanced sound, just slightly rich but also with a touch of very attractive top end sparkle.


----------



## mikey8811

Hi
   
  How different are the CBS red label GTB's from the GT's? Turns out the seller tagged the tubes as GT's but upon closer inspection of the pics, they said GTB's. Similar in most other aspects except for the bottle being slightly shorter. the top circular label says GT though.


----------



## Xcalibur255

They appear the same structurally to me so you should be okay. After a point the Hytron tubes became rebrands when Hytron themselves were absorbed into other companies. Yours are still Hytron made judging from the photo. I suspect there would be little to no difference between them and an older GT version sound wise.


----------



## mikey8811

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> They appear the same structurally to me so you should be okay. After a point the Hytron tubes became rebrands when Hytron themselves were absorbed into other companies. Yours are still Hytron made judging from the photo. I suspect there would be little to no difference between them and an older GT version sound wise.


 
   
  Yes, they do look the same but it is all very confusing. I read elsewhere (i think on the Reference thread) that only the white labels are Hytrons. The red label CBS GT's and especially the GTB's are relabelled GE GTB's which sound ordinary.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Xcalibur255

Go by the physical structure of the tube internally. There was so much variation in labeling you cannot trust that. In the case of hytrons you can also go by the etched ID marking on the top of the tube. The circle around the 6sn7 mark is pretty unique to hytron.


----------



## rosgr63

Tung-Sol 6SU7GTY update.
   
  They come in three flavours:
  Black Glass Round Plates, parallelogram mica.
  Black Glass Round Plates, round mica.
  Clear Glass Flat Plates, triple mica.


----------



## Skylab

With the clear glass, there is also a black-plate and a grey-plate Tung-Sol 6SU7GTY.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob, I only have the three types, so here is the new list:
   
   
  Tung-Sol 6SU7GTY update.
   
  They come in four flavours:
  Black Glass Round Plates, parallelogram mica.
  Black Glass Round Plates, round mica.
  Clear Glass Black Flat Plates, triple mica.
  Clear Glass Grey Flat Plates, triple mica.


----------



## Skylab

I actually have a couple pairs of Sylvania 6SU7GTY, which are clearly Sylvania internals. I'm assuming they are just a 6SL7GT with a brown michanol base, but they are a rare bird.


----------



## rosgr63

I have a Tung-Sol BGRP 6SL7 with grey plates which I thought was interesting.


----------



## dminches

I will have to go through my stash of 6SL7/6SU7s and see what I have.


----------



## dminches

skylab said:


> I actually have a couple pairs of Sylvania 6SU7GTY, which are clearly Sylvania internals. I'm assuming they are just a 6SL7GT with a brown michanol base, but they are a rare bird.




Rob, are those 6188s?


----------



## Skylab

The Sylvanias? No, they say 6SU7GTY. I do have some Philips 6188's too. They are pretty decent tubes as well. And actually you can still get those NOS JAN-6188 from Parts Express.


----------



## dminches

These say both 6188 and 6SU7GTY.


----------



## Skylab

Yes they sure do! I will have to look at mine again but I'm not sure mine have the green JAN print.


----------



## amandarae

Hello,
   
  OT here but just want to ask if anybody have a lead for a pair of type 26/UX226 tubes?  Preferrably "globe" type.
   
  I posted this here as I figure that enthusiast who collects 6SN7 tubes might know some leads for buying the type of tube I am inquiring.
   
  regards,
   
  Abe


----------



## rosgr63

Try these:
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RCA-26-globe-balloon-matching-date-pair-UX226-UX-226-CX326-CX-326-equiv-/281052265578?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4170053c6a
   
  OR
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Cunningham-CX-326-26-globe-balloon-matching-pair-CX326-UX226-UX-226-equiv-/281051707585?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item416ffcb8c1
   
  Good Luck!


----------



## mikey8811

Hi
   
  Would these be Bad Boys?
   

   
  The seller claims they are a matched pair but the plates look slightly different and the date Dec 1959 seems way after the 1952-53 Bad Boy period. They look like 3 hole black plates with copper rods though.
   
  Thanks


----------



## rosgr63

The left looks like a Sylvania and the right like a Hytron.
   
  It could be old stock rebranded in 1959, the left one does look like a genuine Bad Boy.
   
  BTW the seller is good, and gives a 14 day money back option.
  He tends to call most his Sylvanias Bad Boys, even if they are not.


----------



## amandarae

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Try these:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RCA-26-globe-balloon-matching-date-pair-UX226-UX-226-CX326-CX-326-equiv-/281052265578?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4170053c6a
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you very much!


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The left looks like a Sylvania and the right like a Hytron.


 
   
  Somehow I don't get the Hytron vibes...


----------



## rosgr63

A photo of the top mica will help.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Did Hytron ever have any t-plates with 3 plate holes?  I have always worked on the assumption they didn't.  The 3-hole thing seemed to really be a Syvlania thing because Tung Sol always used 2 holes as well.


----------



## rosgr63

I have seen Hytron labeled 3 hole plates in both 6SN7 and 12SN7 versions.
   
  The shiny black plates of the tube on the right remind me of Hytron.
  The top mica will tell the rest of the story.
  A makers code printed on the base will help a lot.
   
  The seller has/had both 2 and 3 hole plate Hytrons not long ago.


----------



## atistatic

Somebody did prove 6SN7 Gold pin Electro Harmonix tubes?


----------



## DefQon

Any 6SN7's that glow very brightly (or with different colour)?


----------



## Zub-a-Roo

What's the best 5692 brand?


----------



## Skylab

Personally I like the CBS-Hytron 5692 best.


----------



## Zub-a-Roo

I just bought a 1959 RCA red base 5692. It's great but I was expecting more from my Daekvoice 336se


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Any 6SN7's that glow very brightly (or with different colour)?


 
   
  I suggest the GE 6SN7GTB with the light bridge on top.
  It looks nice but sonically is very mediocre
   
   
  Quote: 





zub-a-roo said:


> I just bought a 1959 RCA red base 5692. It's great but I was expecting more from my Daekvoice 336se


 
   
  I agree with Rob.
  The Hytron is better and the 33S30 better still, but it's not worth the high price.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I suggest the GE 6SN7GTB with the light bridge on top.
> It looks nice but sonically is very mediocre


 
  Have already tried them before and yeah I agree with you they don't sound great. I need a very bright emitting (different colour) 6SN7 to complement my 1960's HP make GE man 6AS7GT rectifier in my modded DV336SE looks and sound wise.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





zub-a-roo said:


> I just bought a 1959 RCA red base 5692. It's great but I was expecting more from my Daekvoice 336se


 
   
  Sadly, no. It's quite possibly the worst sounding tube in the 336se.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





defqon said:


> I need a very bright emitting (different colour) 6SN7


 
   
  Different colour? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I don't think that's going to happen.


----------



## Zub-a-Roo

oskari said:


> Sadly, no. It's quite possibly the worst sounding tube in the 336se.




Can you make some good suggestions I can chase for the 336se?
Don't get me wrong it's not terrible but .... I want my 701's, 650's and d2k's too sound like the money invested.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





zub-a-roo said:


> Can you make some good suggestions I can chase for the 336se?
> Don't get me wrong it's not terrible but .... I want my 701's, 650's and d2k's too sound like the money invested.


 

 Mod your 336se like I did. But it's going to be hard to find a universal tube combination (without tube rolling) to sonically match all those 3 headphones you mentioned.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Different colour? Sounds like a party! Though, DefQon's locale makes it impossible for me to attend.


----------



## hifimanrookie

defqon said:


> Mod your 336se like I did. But it's going to be hard to find a universal tube combination (without tube rolling) to sonically match all those 3 headphones you mentioned.



+1 i agxree..all 3 are different in soundsignature


----------



## atistatic

So .... nobody tried 6SN7 from Electro Harmonix?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





atistatic said:


> So .... nobody tried 6SN7 from Electro Harmonix?


 
   
  IMHO it's not very good.  Even a very basic Sylvania or RCA 6SN7GTB you can buy for $10-15 will sound better than the Electro-Harmonix, AND cost less.


----------



## atistatic

lol, then those tubes are pure marketing. So what tubes has better performance?


----------



## dminches

Read the thread!  There is a lot of discussion of the different varieties of 6SN7s and each person's opinion of them.


----------



## rosgr63

Any vintage 50's or 60's tube is way better as skylab mentioned.
   
  Try any cheap vintage Sylvania, RCA or Tung-Sol.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Any vintage 50's or 60's tube is way better as skylab mentioned.
> 
> Try any cheap vintage Sylvania, RCA or Tung-Sol.


 
   
  They're also much better than the RCA 5692.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





zub-a-roo said:


> Can you make some good suggestions I can chase for the 336se?


 
   
  ... and it's hard to go wrong with 6F8Gs (but you need an adapter).
   


zub-a-roo said:


> Don't get me wrong it's not terrible but ....


 

   
  It is!


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





defqon said:


> it's going to be hard to find a universal tube combination (without tube rolling) to sonically match all those 3 headphones you mentioned.


 
   
  A very valid point.


----------



## mikey8811

Quote: 





oskari said:


> They're also much better than the RCA 5692.


 

_Is that right? I have yet to try an RCA 5692 as they go for megabucks. Have tried the Sylvania GT's that Xcalibur likes and Grey Glass RCA's. Am awaiting CBS Hytron GT's. Have heard good things about the RCA 5692 but don't think I can afford them. _


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> They're also much better than the RCA 5692.


 
   
   
  I agree, they are not a tube I would invest in, only good for a collection.
   
  has anybody tried the 6N12S yet?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





mikey8811 said:


> _Is that right? I have yet to try an RCA 5692 as they go for megabucks._


 
   
  Perhaps it works in some amps; I don't know. I hate it with a passion in the 336se. The only thing going for it is the bass, *iff* you like your bass overblown, otherwise it's harsh, dead, flat. Just awful!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





mikey8811 said:


> _Is that right? I have yet to try an RCA 5692 as they go for megabucks. Have tried the Sylvania GT's that Xcalibur likes and Grey Glass RCA's. Am awaiting CBS Hytron GT's. Have heard good things about the RCA 5692 but don't think I can afford them. _


 
   
  The CBS Hytron and RCA Grey Glass are wonderful tubes much better sounding than the RCA 5692 IMHO.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I'm a big fan of all the Hytron GTs, they are consistently underrated tubes.  Some of the most lucid mids you will ever hear.  Their only weakness is loose bass, but it isn't so bad it gets in the way of enjoying what the tube does well.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Different colour? Sounds like a party! Though, DefQon's locale makes it impossible for me to attend.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I'm a big fan of all the Hytron GTs, they are consistently underrated tubes.  Some of the most lucid mids you will ever hear.  Their only weakness is loose bass, but it isn't so bad it gets in the way of enjoying what the tube does well.


 
  Undeniably a terrific and underrated tube, I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## Zub-a-Roo

I bite on the RCA red base 5692 for my 336se. What a waste of Xmas money. I even upgraded my interconnects to Zu Audio missions. The upgrade only helped the RCA crawl a bit faster. Yes very flat!!! I have a KenRad I like and a sylvania I found in a 1952 tv in my basement. It's a jewel. 
What's the communities opinion on the "bad boy"
I am going to try a CBS Hytron. Anything special I should be looking for before purchase.
Anyone wanna buy an RCA red base 5692?


----------



## jamato8

The red base 5692 are meant to be run at lower voltages, which is why they are a long lasting tube. As far as sound, I have a number of NOS and for some reason people think they should sound good, they suck. The same can not be said of the 5691, which is a type of 6SL7. They sound very good but not so with the 5692.
   
  The Sylvania 1952 shiny mica 6SN7 has pretty much everything for sound but not everyone loves them. I also have some nice 1940's Tungsol round plate and they are very nice. There are so many 6SN7's that still don't cost a lot that sound excellent. It is often just getting the operating points of the tubes at the right place to get the best sound out of a particular tube as manufactures and era when the tube was manufactured, changed some of the operating points of the tube.


----------



## Skylab

Jam!!!!!! Nice to "see" you here.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Jam!!!!!! Nice to "see" you here.


 
   
  +1!  And......weren't you just in Arizona a minute ago?! Hope your new locale is workin' out.


----------



## atistatic

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> The red base 5692 are meant to be run at lower voltages, which is why they are a long lasting tube. As far as sound, I have a number of NOS and for some reason people think they should sound good, they suck. The same can not be said of the 5691, which is a type of 6SL7. They sound very good but not so with the 5692.
> 
> The Sylvania 1952 shiny mica 6SN7 has pretty much everything for sound but not everyone loves them. I also have some nice 1940's Tungsol round plate and they are very nice. There are so many 6SN7's that still don't cost a lot that sound excellent. It is often just getting the operating points of the tubes at the right place to get the best sound out of a particular tube as manufactures and era when the tube was manufactured, changed some of the operating points of the tube.


 

 "So", do u want mean that the best tubes are of that era? cuz that era were the boom of vacuum tube?


----------



## amandarae

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> The red base 5692 are meant to be run at lower voltages, which is why they are a long lasting tube. As far as sound, I have a number of NOS and for some reason people think they should sound good, they suck. The same can not be said of the 5691, which is a type of 6SL7. They sound very good but not so with the 5692.
> 
> The Sylvania 1952 shiny mica 6SN7 has pretty much everything for sound but not everyone loves them. I also have some nice 1940's Tungsol round plate and they are very nice. There are so many 6SN7's that still don't cost a lot that sound excellent. It is often just getting the operating points of the tubes at the right place to get the best sound out of a particular tube as manufactures and era when the tube was manufactured, changed some of the operating points of the tube.


 
  Exactly!  Like the VT-231 for example.  If you run VT-231's on circuit with plate voltage designed for GTA or GTB then  your beloved tube will not last as you have expected.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





amandarae said:


> Exactly!  Like the VT-231 for example.  If you run VT-231's on circuit with plate voltage designed for GTA or GTB then  your beloved tube will not last as you have expected.


 
   
  I don't understand this.  Aren't VT-231s and GTAs/GTBs all 6SN7s?


----------



## Skylab

Yes...BUT...
   
  A 6SN7GT is rated for a plate voltage of 300V.  A 6SN7GTA/B is rated for 450V.  So if the circuit is designed for "universal" 6SN7 use, it needs to present a plate voltage of 300V.  In practice BTW this is what most designers do, so the scenario of burning up your 6SN7GTs is a rare one.


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes...BUT...
> 
> A 6SN7GT is rated for a plate voltage of 300V.  A 6SN7GTA/B is rated for 450V.  So if the circuit is designed for "universal" 6SN7 use, it needs to present a plate voltage of 300V.  In practice BTW this is what most designers do, so the scenario of burning up your 6SN7GTs is a rare one.


 

 Yes, nice to see you also, so to speak. :^)
   
  ---------------------------------
   
  Tubes had parameters but changes often occurred that allowed them to operate at different points but have basically the same function in the circuit, as pointed out above. The 6SN7 was a current tube whereas the 6SL7 was a voltage tube with a much higher gain. I have 27 balloon tubes made in 1929 to 1932 that operate at certain points but later 27's can operate better at a little different points, while doing the same job in the circuit. The 76 is a coke bottle shape that came after the 27 and preceded the 6SN7 as it was like one side of a 6SN7 since the 6SN7 is a dual triode. The 76 works best operated right at maximum current and voltage but won't last as long as lower points but sounds best there. It is all a balanced act and knowing your tubes.
   
  I now travel with a nice calibrated TV7 just in case I come across any tubes. Got to be prepared you know. lol


----------



## amandarae

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yes...BUT...
> 
> A 6SN7GT is rated for a plate voltage of 300V.  A 6SN7GTA/B is rated for 450V.  So if the circuit is designed for "universal" 6SN7 use, it needs to present a plate voltage of 300V.  In practice BTW this is what most designers do, so the scenario of burning up your 6SN7GTs is a rare one.


 
  Hello,
   
  I did not say "burning up", I am saying it will not last as long as the GTA/GTB's.


----------



## mhamam

I'm using 6SN7's as driver tubes in my SET amplifier. The output stage of the 6SN7 is coupled with the output tube grid by a capacitor. I have been thinking of changing that capacitor for an interstage transformer, mainly due to the voltage limitation of the capacitor, which limits the power I could be drawing from my o/p tube (i.e, could I go up with the voltage, I could have 30% more power.)
  I was told by a transformer manufacturer that the 6SN7 is not a good tube to use with interstage transformers, and that I would be better off with the 6BL7 due to its lower o/p resistance. I wonder if anybody here has had some experience with this, or would have an informed opinion about this...


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





mhamam said:


> I'm using 6SN7's as driver tubes in my SET amplifier. The output stage of the 6SN7 is coupled with the output tube grid by a capacitor. I have been thinking of changing that capacitor for an interstage transformer, mainly due to the voltage limitation of the capacitor, which limits the power I could be drawing from my o/p tube (i.e, could I go up with the voltage, I could have 30% more power.)
> I was told by a transformer manufacturer that the 6SN7 is not a good tube to use with interstage transformers, and that I would be better off with the 6BL7 due to its lower o/p resistance. I wonder if anybody here has had some experience with this, or would have an informed opinion about this...


 

 Go over to Audio Asylum to the tube section and ask or do a search.


----------



## bassgroove

I have a range of 6SN7 variants I use in my customised Icon Audio HP8 Mark II.  They are an excellent source of help and advice in relationship to tubes and sell a broad range, their headphone amps are also out of this world, paired with my Schiit DAC the sound output is sumptuous.
   
  http://www.iconaudio.com/audio-valves/


----------



## bassgroove

My current 6SN7...


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mhamam said:


> I'm using 6SN7's as driver tubes in my SET amplifier. The output stage of the 6SN7 is coupled with the output tube grid by a capacitor. I have been thinking of changing that capacitor for an interstage transformer, mainly due to the voltage limitation of the capacitor, which limits the power I could be drawing from my o/p tube (i.e, could I go up with the voltage, I could have 30% more power.)
> I was told by a transformer manufacturer that the 6SN7 is not a good tube to use with interstage transformers, and that I would be better off with the 6BL7 due to its lower o/p resistance. I wonder if anybody here has had some experience with this, or would have an informed opinion about this...


 

 You could try dropping this question in the 2359glenn Studio thread too.  He has used the 6BL7 and told me it is a great tube.


----------



## rosgr63

Glenn can most certainly provide this info, he probably has tried that configuration any way!


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





mhamam said:


> I'm using 6SN7's as driver tubes in my SET amplifier. The output stage of the 6SN7 is coupled with the output tube grid by a capacitor. I have been thinking of changing that capacitor for an interstage transformer, mainly due to the voltage limitation of the capacitor, which limits the power I could be drawing from my o/p tube (i.e, could I go up with the voltage, I could have 30% more power.)
> I was told by a transformer manufacturer that the 6SN7 is not a good tube to use with interstage transformers, and that I would be better off with the 6BL7 due to its lower o/p resistance. I wonder if anybody here has had some experience with this, or would have an informed opinion about this...


 
  What is the output tube the 6SN7 is tryind to drive ?


----------



## GrindingThud

6SN7 looks kinda fun! Anyone ever stuff one on top of a WA3?


----------



## mikey8811

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I'm a big fan of all the Hytron GTs, they are consistently underrated tubes.  Some of the most lucid mids you will ever hear.  Their only weakness is loose bass, but it isn't so bad it gets in the way of enjoying what the tube does well.


 

 Hi
   
  I got the Hytron GTB's. I placed them in the balanced input buffers of my Cary SLP 05 (tubes 3 & 6) with a quad of RCA Grey Glass in the phase splitter positions (tubes 1, 2, 4 & 5). They are fast and quiet tubes. Compared to the Sylvania GT Chrome Domes that Xcalibur likes, they have a fuller midrange and low end. Because of the speed they work better with rock and pop music even though the bass was a bit tubby but there seemed to be more of it than with the Syl's. There was however, also more treble and sibilance. In this combination, I enjoyed them more than the Syl's with rock and pop. However, with jazz, I enjoyed the Syl's more as the treble was more delicate.
   
  I also tried a quad of them in the phase splitter positions (tubes 1, 2, 4 & 5) with RCA Grey Glass in the balanced input buffers (tubes 3 & 6) - this combination seemed to accentuate the treble sibilance but the speed and low end was pretty good.
   
  I've read some comments that they are similar in sound to the Tungsol's - not the BGRP's which I could not afford but the clear glass ones with or without mouse ears. Would these give me the speed of the Hytron GT's with a more delicate treble like the Syl's?


----------



## Xcalibur255

IMO no not really.  Tung Sols are well extended but also a bit lit up at the top more so than Hytrons are.  The actual BGRP Tung Sol would give you exactly what you want, but at high cost.  The later Tung Sols are good tubes, but delicate isn't one of their qualities.  If you are looking for a full lower range and polite treble that isn't dead or dark you might like the Japanese tubes such as the ITT or Hitachis.


----------



## Silent One

I own a pair of ITT (Japan) 6SN7GTB's and was pleasantly surprised by them...


----------



## jamato8

The Japanese went for very hard vacuum on their tubes. They took it very serious and in general, the Japanese tubes have always been underrated. They last a long time and maintain their sound. I have 5 EL34's, which are power tubes, made in Japan. I don't know the manufacture as they are the only ones of style I have, that I have ever seen. They have 1000's of hours on them and still sound better than any EL34 I have ever heard and I have NOS Mullards and Amperex.


----------



## mhamam

emission labs 1605


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





mhamam said:


> emission labs 1605


 
  The EML1605 is similar to a 300B except it can take higher voltage and put out more power. A 6SN7 has a hard time driving a 300B so I
  would think the same for the 1605.  The capacitor is not the problem the 6SN7 doesn't have enough drive to drive the 1605.
    You might try a 6DN7 1/2 is like a 6SN7 and 1/2 is like a 6BL7 plus this tube don"t sound bad. If you have 500 volts B+ for the 1605
  you can decouple The 500 volts with a 1K 10 watt resistor and 20uf 630 volt capacitor to ground and use a 25K 25 watt resistor to the plate
  of section two pin 2 of the 6DN7 then the capacitor to the grid of the 1605.


----------



## rosgr63

Glenn, I feel so hopeless when I read your excellent recommendations!!!!!!!!!!!!
   
  No wonder your amps sound so good!


----------



## dminches

Stavros, that's because we spend time driving the car while Glenn is under the hood.


----------



## Silent One

Well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 stated, dminches! I'm going to have to do more to park the car and get up in there..._.and learn more._


----------



## DefQon

Anyone tried some NOS Valvo rebrand 6SN7's? Has gold contacts and very dark black plates. Big O getter.


----------



## Zub-a-Roo

What is the opinion on the Sophia electric grade A for $100.00 off eBay. I am leary about the purchase.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Stavros, that's because we spend time driving the car while Glenn is under the hood.


 
   
  You are so right David.
  I just received my first 6H12C, what a gorgeous looking tube.
  If I feel adventurous enough I might test it.
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> Anyone tried some NOS Valvo rebrand 6SN7's? Has gold contacts and very dark black plates. Big O getter.


 
   
  Any photos?
   
  Quote: 





zub-a-roo said:


> What is the opinion on the Sophia electric grade A for $100.00 off eBay. I am leary about the purchase.


 
   
  I haven't and wouldn't pay that much for a new production tube, sorry.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





zub-a-roo said:


> What is the opinion on the Sophia electric grade A for $100.00 off eBay. I am leary about the purchase.


 
  Not worth it, I think Skylab will also agree. The last Sophia grade a went for $45 in the F/S section here.
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Any photos?


 
  Not yet I got in contact with one of the local hifi repairman and I enquired about multiple tubes he may have that I may be interested, he mentioned a few of the already mentioned 6SN7's here and 2 I already own and he said the Valvo one is a really good one for SET tube amps or something along the lines. His asking price was pretty hefty so I'm wondering if they are good or not as I can look for them on ebay.


----------



## Blackmore

Very depending of amps they going to be used in, because some amps are very responding to tube rolling and some are not that much, but also the way they are going to be used, as driver or input, which may give differ results as well. 
   
As others have already mentioned, their MSRP is to high and there are plenty other, NOS, tubes around that you can buy in batches for USD 100 shipped, just look around, if you like of course, but if your interest for Sophia tube still there, try to find on used market, cos they go like 50% less of their sale price or simply ask for discount directly from Sophia, you never know.
I had them and try in my Cary and I don't think Cary, and me to,  loved them that much, especially when I used them all together with their 300B Princess, the sound was to metallic on top, while the midrange was pretty good, the lower end was to rounded and not much separate from it, so, I found them not be an good match at the end and sold all of them. Later, I tried Sophia 300B Royal in my Cary and again, while, this time, the low end was punchier, it was still getting in the very strange way of mids and the mids sounded hard, where top end also sounded metallic again, very unnatural and after a few hours I got a headache, no jokes, however…Coming to the first part of my response. When I listen Royals from out of Zanden 7000 amp, they were nothing but good, I was pretty amazed how different they were sounding, but even then, USD 1000-1200 for a pair?, pfff, give me a break, really. 
I have a good moment with DIY Audio Note clone amp that was running with 4x Black Dragon 300B Chinese made tubes, old production that cost really cheap compared to Royals or  Princess and you know what? The sound was fantastic, but if you see what kind of components were there, especially  Tango transformers, you will understand where that sound are coming from.
   
From expirience above, I am with rosgr63, I will never buy them again, either put in my system, cos ones I was trying listen to TJ Full Music 300B pair in my Cary, but after I turn the amp on, my USD 60 Furutech fuse were gone with the wind,  so, never again.
I am sure Sophia check their tubes better and it may not happened with their product, but you have to be very sure that the tubes you get, are good quality, before you put them in your system.
   
Good luck
   
  Quote:


zub-a-roo said:


> What is the opinion on the Sophia electric grade A for $100.00 off eBay. I am leary about the purchase.


----------



## Skylab

Yep, I had the Sophia 6SN7, waste of money in my opinion.  $10 Sylvania 6SN7GTB definitely sounded better.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> The Japanese went for very hard vacuum on their tubes. They took it very serious and in general, the Japanese tubes have always been underrated. They last a long time and maintain their sound. I have 5 EL34's, which are power tubes, made in Japan. I don't know the manufacture as they are the only ones of style I have, that I have ever seen. They have 1000's of hours on them and still sound better than any EL34 I have ever heard and I have NOS Mullards and Amperex.


 
   
  The Japanese 6SN7 are great tubes.
  The Hitachi 6SL7 with short plates is one of my favourites.


----------



## dminches

I used a pair of Hitachi/ITT 6SN7s in my DAC and didn't love them.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I used a pair of Hitachi/ITT 6SN7s in my DAC and didn't love them.


 
   
  Very open sounding in my amp but too bright for my taste/system. I think they can be very good in the right system.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Wasn't too impressed with the Sophia Electric 6SN7s either in most combinations I've tried, but recently I put them in with the 596 & some Chathams just for fun, and turns out I really like them in that setup! More so than my Psvanes for example... Whether it's worth SE's asking price is another matter, but they have certainly gone up in my appreciation a lot.


----------



## Zub-a-Roo

Thanks for all the feedback on the Sophia electric.
What is everyone's feelings on the bad boy? I heard good things about Hytron too. My next tube will be between the two.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Very open sounding in my amp but too bright for my taste/system. I think they can be very good in the right system.


 

 I personally found the Hitachi black plate on the mellow side treble wise.  Super bass, right up there with the Ken Rads with tighter control even.


----------



## Blackmore

I suggest you just buy both of them and decide which one sweets you more, thats the only way.
   
  Quote:


zub-a-roo said:


> Thanks for all the feedback on the Sophia electric.
> What is everyone's feelings on the bad boy? I heard good things about Hytron too. My next tube will be between the two.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I personally found the Hitachi black plate on the mellow side treble wise.


 
   
  Bright in a clean, non-edgy, sweet kind of way in this system, but definitely bright.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Bright in a clean, non-edgy, sweet kind of way in this system, but definitely bright.


 

 It just goes to show that differences in the B+ between amps can change the character of a tube so much it can be hard to make comparisons unless both owners have the same amp.


----------



## dminches

This folder is way too quiet.  Did all of you convert to solid state?  Stavros, you have probably purchased 50 tubes since your last post.
   
  I purchased a pair of Tung Sol 6F8Gs from a guy in France.  They had square plates which is a flavor I had not tried before.  Unfortunately one of the tubes had a short.  Today a found a single square plate tube on ebay for $38, much less than I paid for the pair.  I am finding that buying single tubes can be quite economical if you are patient and the tubes are well described to you can put together a (reasonably matched) pair.


----------



## Silent One

Still in the game. But, my savings have been shattered like a tray of original WE300B's falling onto the ground...devastating!


----------



## dminches

Sorry to hear that SO.  That would ruin my day, and then some.


----------



## Silent One

No need to feel bad for_ the Silent One_. We are grounded. Perhaps, I was a bit over dramatic and should clarify, my savings for audio. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm doin' alright in other areas. The tea tins marked "Audio" will get some cash stashed in them soon enough.


----------



## rosgr63

You are right David, an addict never stops!
   
  My recent acquisition is a beautiful 6H12C but I am a bit apprehensive about using it.
   
  Meantime I am building up a collection of 45's, VT-52's, 310's, 311's and 328's.


----------



## Xcalibur255

dminches said:


> Did all of you convert to solid state?




There are days when it is tempting.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> You are right David, an addict never stops!
> 
> My recent acquisition is a beautiful 6H12C but I am a bit apprehensive about using it.
> 
> Meantime I am building up a collection of 45's, VT-52's, 310's, 311's and 328's.


 
  A Tale of Lust and Caution?


----------



## hifimanrookie

The rookie on the block is also still here


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> The rookie on the block is also still here


 
  Dw rookie, you're not forgotten (at least not with the use of emoticons) hehe.


----------



## Neogeo333

Can anyone help identify these weird construction 6sn7?  Got them a while ago but never got the chance to use them yet.  Any info on how they sound?  Thanks.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Dw rookie, you're not forgotten (at least not with the use of emoticons) hehe.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Can anyone help identify these weird construction 6sn7?  Got them a while ago but never got the chance to use them yet.  Any info on how they sound?  Thanks.


 
   
  I disposed a quad set of these while ago, not much information besides supposedly manufactured around 1970's in Russia I think, RFT 6H8C's, either Ukraine or Russia they were for old telecommunications/military use. They sound like the usual Russian tube sound but they last a long time, fairly bland and boring though, you can say natural sounding, high's bit tizzling with some vocals...but the durability do last a long while...some like the sound, some don't but they go for a bit cheaper than cheap Sylvania's. Only reason I chucked out my matched quad was because they all hummed/distorted loudly when overdriven and I got it for cheap $10 for a quad from a Czech Republic tube ebayer. 
   
  I prefer the Svetlana's over the RFT's, which are sort of a step up from general cheap Russian tubes with Russian letter prefixes.


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks Defqon, I hope these doesnt hum or add any noise in my amp.  If I remember correctly there others 6sn7 with ceramic inside?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Thanks Defqon, I hope these doesnt hum or add any noise in my amp.  If I remember correctly there others 6sn7 with ceramic inside?


 
   
  No problems. Btw do you still have your LD VI+?


----------



## Neogeo333

Nope, sold it.  Got me a Cavalli Liquid Glass.  Miss that amp, all those 6as7 lighting up the night had a nice view.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Can anyone help identify these weird construction 6sn7?


 
   
  Those were actually made in East Berlin. The number 604 and the HF logo both identify the _Werk für Fernmeldewesen_ aka _Oberspreewerk_ in Berlin-Oberschöneweide in the Soviet sector of Berlin. This was the former _AEG-Röhrenfabrik Oberspree_.


----------



## rosgr63

I have some from the different DDR factories and to me they sound excellent.
  Nothing in common with the CCCP made 6H8C which sound terrible.
   
  They have a double getter on the top and not the flying saucer type getter typical of the CCCP 6H8C tubes.
   
  The RFT factories also made the legendary Telefunken 6SN7GTA/GTB.


----------



## Neogeo333

So what you guys are saying I scored a good pair of 6sn7?  I saw a similar 6sn7 on ebay but it says b65/ qb65.  Same construction as mine with same ceramic mica.  They even say made in Germany.   God knows why he wants so much for it.


----------



## DefQon

The very first RFT's were made in Germany, the later one's were produced in Russia or Ukraine, not sure which but there was a pretty lengthy discussion on another forum (think it was Audio Asylum), but from just looking at it, I'm sure those 6SN7's you have are Soviet one's because as I said I had a quad matched purchased from a tube store. I still stick by original impressions with them, they sound just "OK". How much is the seller asking? And also beware of fake relabels - alot on ebay.
   
  Btw, do find the MK VI+ not that far from the LG?


----------



## Neogeo333

The mk6 has power in spade.  It can move my orthos easily.   What the LG bring is fineness and more musicality.   If I use the same tube let say a Sylvania metal base 6sn7w on both amp, the LG sounds better.  But then again the mk6 was designed with 6sl7 in mind not 6sn7.  If I would score both amp on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 been perfect.  The LG scores 9 and the mk6 7.5.  Yes the mk6 is that good for the money.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





defqon said:


> I'm sure those 6SN7's you have are Soviet one's


 
   
  Right, Soviet sector of Berlin, that is.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> I saw a similar 6sn7 on ebay but it says b65/ qb65.  Same construction as mine with same ceramic mica.  They even say made in Germany.


 
   
  True B65s or QB65s must be UK-made by MOV.
   


> God knows why he wants so much for it.


 
   
  Ignorance? Greed? On the other hand, the RFT ceramics are rareish as well.


----------



## rgs9200m

I have one of the B65s I bought as NOS and tried for a few hours and it sounds fine, but I want to sell it in anyone is interested. Thanks. I'm in NJ.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> The mk6 has power in spade.  It can move my orthos easily.   What the LG bring is fineness and more musicality.   If I use the same tube let say a Sylvania metal base 6sn7w on both amp, the LG sounds better.  But then again the mk6 was designed with 6sl7 in mind not 6sn7.  If I would score both amp on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 been perfect.  The LG scores 9 and the mk6 7.5.  Yes the mk6 is that good for the money.


 
  Yeh it is a good amp, I might attempt to get mine back to LD and have David install the upgraded caps and wiring, I can do it myself but I don't want to risk in having a $850 door stopper or voiding warranty. Although the tube rolling on the LG is any tube rollers dream, the price of the amp 4 times more than the LD though. One thing I know for sure is that it is definitely a very good amp and I find it out performs most products worth more than it such as the Woo's up to WA22's.
   
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> Right, Soviet sector of Berlin, that is.


 
   
  Ok thanks for clarifying that, guess some of the stamped codes indicate the plants original NOS and reissues were made from.


----------



## Neogeo333

If David from LD ever gets a new MK6+ Rev.2 that can handle 6336 tubes and upgraded internals, I am all in.


----------



## rosgr63

I finally tried my first 6H12C on my Glenn's OTL.
   
  The low end is phenomenal, not bad tubes.
   
  To complete my collection I sourced a spare pair.


----------



## DefQon

>


 
  Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> If David from LD ever gets a new MK6+ Rev.2 that can handle 6336 tubes and upgraded internals, I am all in.


 
  Well you never know it could happen from what I have heard that their will be another successor amp to the MK 6 and 8 meaning a new flagship.....but seriously for the price the MK 6 is hard to beat....
   
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I finally tried my first 6H12C on my Glenn's OTL.
> 
> The low end is phenomenal, not bad tubes.
> 
> To complete my collection I sourced a spare pair.


 
   
  Lucky you! I may have to source a matched/balanced pair just to try out again, my first experience with them was not a good one.


----------



## rosgr63

The 6H12C are not equivalent to the 6SN7 as they have a 0.9A heater current compared to 0.6A of the 6SN7.
  The transformer must be able to handle this.
   
  After talking to Glenn who confirmed that my amp can easily handle them I decided to buy one to try and the results were good.
   
  In a different amp of course they may sound bad, a lot depends on the system.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The 6H12C are not equivalent to the 6SN7 as they have a 0.9A heater current compared to 0.6A of the 6SN7.
> The transformer must be able to handle this.
> 
> After talking to Glenn who confirmed that my amp can easily handle them I decided to buy one to try and the results were good.
> ...


 
   
   
EDIT: I have read wrong and replied back thinking it was the previous RFT 6SN7 tubes you were still talking about....my bad haha. Btw how's the Glenn?
   
Are these worth the asking price?
   
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-Tung-Sol-CTL-6SN7GT-6SN7-GT-Vacuum-Tube-NOS-NIB-Black-Round-Plates-Rare-NEW-/380578800210?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item589c43a252&_uhb=1#ht_2416wt_879


----------



## dminches

They aren't "these".  The price is for 1 tube.  Way overpriced even in this day and age of inflated prices.


----------



## Neogeo333

Try the 6f8g variant, much cheaper and sounds better.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Try the 6f8g variant, much cheaper and sounds better.


 
   
  Bingo


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





defqon said:


> EDIT: I have read wrong and replied back thinking it was the previous RFT 6SN7 tubes you were still talking about....my bad haha. Btw how's the Glenn?
> 
> Are these worth the asking price?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-Tung-Sol-CTL-6SN7GT-6SN7-GT-Vacuum-Tube-NOS-NIB-Black-Round-Plates-Rare-NEW-/380578800210?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item589c43a252&_uhb=1#ht_2416wt_879


 
   
  The 12SN7 + adapter cheaper still, the same tube with a 12V heater voltage.
   
  You can run them without the adapter and they may be fine.
   
  I was very surprised as the 6H12C is a very rare tube, they don't turn up that often.


----------



## kchew

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I finally tried my first 6H12C on my Glenn's OTL.
> 
> The low end is phenomenal, not bad tubes.
> 
> To complete my collection I sourced a spare pair.


 
   
  Interesting, I didn't realise that there was another Russian tube besides the 6H8C/6N8S and 1578 that are electrically similar to the 6SN7. Am I right in saying that this is like a 0.9A version of the 6H8C? If so, I should be able to use it on my WA22 since it can handle the ECC32 right?


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Try the 6f8g variant, much cheaper and sounds better.


 
  X2. That's basically all what I am using in my WA5-LE now.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





kchew said:


> Interesting, I didn't realise that there was another Russian tube besides the 6H8C/6N8S and 1578 that are electrically similar to the 6SN7. Am I right in saying that this is like a 0.9A version of the 6H8C? If so, I should be able to use it on my WA22 since it can handle the ECC32 right?


 
   
  That's what I thought since some of my amps can handle an ECC32 at 0.9V then the 6H12C should be safe.
  I was contemplating for a couple of weeks and when Glenn told me it's safe to use in his OTL try and see if you like it, I did.


----------



## Skylab

Nice, Stavros! Other than the identical 0.9a heater current, how similar are they to the ECC32 electrically ?


----------



## J-Pak

Perhaps someone has more info on this tube? I have not seen a such a uniform round mica on a 6F8G before (usually they have tiny protrusions ala Tung Sol). click to enlarge


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Nice, Stavros! Other than the identical 0.9a heater current, how similar are they to the ECC32 electrically ?


 
   
  Thanks Rob,
   
  It looks great it's a small tube and feels very robust like the 1578.
   
  It has a plate voltage of 180V here are the specs


----------



## mikey8811

Hi Xcalibur
   
  I got these Sylvania GT's last week.
   

   
  The ones on either side are the ones you like, I believe.
   
  What is the centre one? It has a full getter flashing but also a taller base. Could it be the same as the Syl 6SN7W? Alternatively, could it be the same as the tube I posted about last year (pictured below), which could possibly be the true Chrome Dome?
   

   

   
  Thanks


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





j-pak said:


> Perhaps someone has more info on this tube? I have not seen a such a uniform round mica on a 6F8G before (usually they have tiny protrusions ala Tung Sol). click to enlarge


 
   
  My RCAs have the same type mica, maybe this is RCA made.
  Does it have a makers code?


----------



## DefQon

Ok so these came today:
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/160968680875?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_679wt_1151
   
  Straight into my 336SE and there is a slight background hum on the left channel. Should give it a few hours or so of burn-in to give the tubes enough time to soothe itself and see if the hum disappears?


----------



## Neogeo333

Or you can try tapping the top of the tube with something soft. Like the eraser of an pencil.  I do that when I hear noise/hum from a tube, usually it works.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is an interesting tube dated week 35, 1944 with gold pins and Wehrmacht insignia.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Here is an interesting tube dated week 35, 1944 with gold pins and Wehrmacht insignia.


 
   
  I must say that it took quite a while to find out what that could be.


----------



## Skylab

Well, without knowing the tube code it's kinda tough.  Wehrmacht tubes were the WW2 German Military tubes. Tube numbering scheme I believe was totally unique to them during the period.  
   
  So...what is it?


----------



## Oskari

I think we have a twister here. I'll keep quiet for now in case there are others who like the challenge.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mikey8811 said:


> Hi Xcalibur
> 
> I got these Sylvania GT's last week.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Have you tried listening to them yet?
   
  The one in the middle is your jackpot IMO.  What matters is the getter flash, notice how it goes so far down the glass it reaches the bottom mica plate?  Those are the ones that sound great, I think they have shown up in both the normal and short base types.  Sylvania mixed and matched on this stuff a lot.  I have a pair with different bottom micas too, one has teeth and one does not but both tubes sound identical.  The getter flash covering the whole tube is the only reliable indicator.  There is a fine line between the GT and GTA, they can be hard to tell apart.  One way to tell is that the flashing looks "cleaner" on the GTAs.  These are the tubes I avoid, they don't sound as good.  The flashing on yours looks a bit on the short side but I do still think they are GTs.  They should all have 3 hole plates, I've never seen the 2-hole plate type with the heavy top getter flash in this glass envelope length.  The 6SN7W is a top getter with pretty heavy flashing, and that one is 2-hole, but the glass is shorter and there should be a metal support rod between the plates.  Your tubes are all medium glass.
   
  Whenever somebody tries this tube and tells me they thought it was ordinary I have become convinced they're not actually finding the right tube.  The real deal gives you that sort of "aha!" feeling of total transparency that very few tubes do. 
   
  I have a pair that looks exactly like the ones on the ends of your photo and I think they sound great too.  What you primarily gain is more transparency trying to hunt down the rare oddballs.  All three in the photo are great tubes and worth owning.  I would try to hunt down a friend for the one in the middle if your amp uses pairs, it would probably be worth it.  But remember we all have our own tastes too.  Some people don't like the BGRP Tung Sol despite its reputation.  You have to trust what your own ears tell you is good, not mine.


----------



## mikey8811

Hi Xcalibur
   
  Yes, I have tried them. I liked both the ones with the shorter base (side tubes) and the ones with the fuller getter flashing (centre tube). Both types were very close in sound. The construction of the latter ie. the middle tube appear to be very close to the older tube also with full getter flashing that I posted. I used them as a pair. I was confused by the JAN 6SN7 GT labelling and thought that it was a mislabelled JAN 6SN7 W instead because I referred to your earlier post on the Woo Audio Amp Owners thread comparing the 4 Syl GT & W types.
   
  As far as the sound goes, the ones with the fuller getter flashing have more treble resolution which is extended and yet not bright and more bass although the bass is less tight than the other short base type which appeared to be faster  (I don't know if this is a result of my having also changed the rectifier tube in my preamp power supply to a Mullard 5AR4). Both have a lilting quality to the upper mids that is very attractive on female vocals. It was the bass quality that made me think the tubes were the 6SN7 W's as that seemed to be your impression in your comparison piece. Other than the fuller getter flashing, I had thought that the other identifying characteristic was the mica material which is a little chalky as opposed to being a more finished metal sheen. If the side tubes are not the same as the centre one, then where do they belong in the Syl camp? Are they more like the GTA's?
   
   
  I also just scored another pair of similar looking tubes (pics below) and have yet to receive them so I do not know if they are the same. They also have a fuller getter flashing from the pics but I can't tell if they have 3 hole plates or not. If they are indeed the same, then I can try them as a quad.


----------



## DefQon

Well I got some RCA ladder type coin base 6SN7's, these sound pretty good.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well, without knowing the tube code it's kinda tough.  Wehrmacht tubes were the WW2 German Military tubes. Tube numbering scheme I believe was totally unique to them during the period.
> 
> So...what is it?


 
   
  Quote: 





oskari said:


> I think we have a twister here. I'll keep quiet for now in case there are others who like the challenge.


 
   
This is a twister indeed, well spotted.
Oskari I think you know what it is.
   
*6H12C Update*
   
  I just received the new pair and realised there are two different types:
   
   
 [size=medium] The one I had has short bottle 5 support rods, single getter, dull plates.[/size]
 [size=medium] The new arrivals, have longer bottle with 4 support rods, double getter and shiny plates.[/size]


----------



## Oskari

Well, since there aren't any other takers, I suspect it's a Valvo 328A. A Western Electric type in Wehrmacht colours!


----------



## rosgr63

Very Well Done!!!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Part of a matched pair.
   
  You are too good I must admit.
   
  BTW here is an older RFT 1954 vintage?
  Notice the non ceramic *spacers* and large plates.
   
   

   

   
   
*EDIT:spacers*


----------



## rosgr63

Here it is:


----------



## sunseeker888

Somewhere in my attic, I have a 1950s Admiral black and white television chock-full of those Sylvania 6SN7s (with elongated gettering). I may pull them and sell them. I could easily insert a lesser tube in that tv chassis and get the same performance.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Wehrmacht tubes were the WW2 German Military tubes. Tube numbering scheme I believe was totally unique to them during the period.


 
   
  The problem was I couldn't find any matching Wehrmacht types, but they didn't use just their own types. Next I considered _Poströhren_, and the C3b/C3c/C3d came close but they all seemed coated. Then I somehow got the _Valvo_ feeling and started looking for examples of Valvo C3-something-early. Suddenly the 328A popped up.
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> You are too good I must admit.


 
   
  I think the word is _persistent_.


----------



## Xcalibur255

mikey, keep in mind equipment matters a lot too.  The tubes will behave differently in different circuits, in a manner of speaking my original writeup on the Sylvania tubes is only really valid if you are a WA6 user.  I've found in my OTL most of the tubes sound different, though many do retain a fundamental base quality that defines their character.
   
  You've scored some great tubes, I don't think any of yours are GTAs, not the ones in your photos anyway.  I find the GTAs to be ordinary and unimpressive.  There is nothing wrong with them, and are preferable to modern production tubes for sure, but they lack finesse and feel less balanced tonally.
   
  I don't think you can be sure of anything by the mica types, Sylvania mixed and matched parts too much.  But the GTAs were made on different tooling, the getter flashing is clearly different if you compare them directly.  Since you like both of the tubes in your photos I wouldn't worry about sub-defining each one and just enjoy them, or pursue which ever you like more.  FWIW though one of the defining qualities of the Sylvania tube I like best is the bass quality.  Very fast and controlled with great texture and weight.  They have a deceiving since of dynamic ease and range that other popular Sylvania tubes like the Bad Boy do not have.
   
  I'm not actively collecting anymore myself, it got too expensive plus you have to stop somewhere or there really is no end to it.  Once you find a tube that makes you feel really content I would find a backup pair and then just enjoy them.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> The problem was I couldn't find any matching Wehrmacht types, but they didn't use just their own types. Next I considered _Poströhren_, and the C3b/C3c/C3d came close but they all seemed coated. Then I somehow got the _Valvo_ feeling and started looking for examples of Valvo C3-something-early. Suddenly the 328A popped up.
> 
> 
> I think the word is _persistent_.


 
   
   
  The word is* GOOD*, but you are too modest to accept.


----------



## Skylab

Certainly way beyond me.  I could never have figured out what it was without referencing the tube code.  Never heard of the 328A. What is it compatible with?


----------



## rosgr63

Rob the 328A is the 7.5V variant of the 310A and 310B which have a 10V heater voltage.
   
  Reputed to be one of the best ever audio tubes.


----------



## dminches

Stavros, in what amp do you use it?


----------



## rosgr63

A custom made one getting built soon.
  A pair of either 310A or 310B or 328A will be the drivers.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> A custom made one getting built soon.
> A pair of either 310A or 310B or 328A will be the drivers.


 
  Well then, I'll just go and stand in your line...


----------



## rosgr63

I thought we were friends!


----------



## Silent One

You walk a very inspiring path...


----------



## rosgr63

Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained.......


----------



## Silent One

Dogs & Cats are overrated. If I had 2359glenn-like skills, I'd have a basement 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




full of glass and iron.


----------



## Xcalibur255

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-pair-6SN7GT-ECC32-silverplatetested-extra-strong-/140926041362
   
  What might these be?  I can't say I've seen such a plate color before, and the style looks Brimar/Mullard.


----------



## sunseeker888

Don't know about the seller's testing method, but those are relatively early meaning they can take more than 450 on the plate. I've seen later G.E.s which cannot handle ~500vdc anode volts without some plate 'blushing' which of course can release elemental deposits in the anode, thus ruining the vacuum.


----------



## rosgr63

They actually look like 6SL7 22mm type plates, not ECC32 or 6SN7.


----------



## Xcalibur255

6SL7 would be logical, I didn't think of that.


----------



## rosgr63

I have a few 6SL7's with exactly the same plates.
  The seller was thinking about ECC35 and 6SL7.
   
  BTW I tried the RFT 6H8C 1954 vintage with the wide plates and it sounded very nice with my Glenn OTL.


----------



## dminches

Stavros, which headphones have you been using with Glenn's OTL?


----------



## rosgr63

I mostly use my Grado SR325is and occasionally, Maestro GMP400 or DT880.
   
  The Grado easily reveal noisy tubes.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Are your DT880's the 600ohm version Stavros?  I've been wondering how great the GR amps sound when used with the types of headphones they are best suited for.


----------



## DefQon

What should one do if a tube is arcing during warm-up?


----------



## mrAdrian

take a video of it.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mradrian said:


> take a video of it.


 
  What! 
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/654213/gold-lion-reissue-el84-tubes-arcing#post_9231889


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Are your DT880's the 600ohm version Stavros?  I've been wondering how great the GR amps sound when used with the types of headphones they are best suited for.


 
   
  I am using the 250Ohm version.
  The Maestro GMP400 sounds very good, but haven't spent too long with them, mainly using the Grado for tube evaluation.
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> What should one do if a tube is arcing during warm-up?


 
   
  When a power tube arcs you can damage your headphones.
  I suggest you get your tubes tested just in case.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





defqon said:


> What!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/654213/gold-lion-reissue-el84-tubes-arcing#post_9231889


 

 If you are certain what you are seeing is arcing take them out of the amp and stop using them.  There is the question of whether the tube is malfunctioning due to a defect or if it is being run at an inappropriate operating point by the circuit it is in, but either way when a tube arcs it is unsafe and can cause damage to the amp, headphones or both.


----------



## john57

That is right, a tube tester can not tell if a tube is going to arc over. Most tube testers can not test the tube at the same operating point being used in the amp. You need to take the tube out of service as least for that amp. I had a tube that arc over that did blew out a headphone.


----------



## rosgr63

That's right John.
   
  A tube tester may not pick up the problem indeed.
   
  I tested a rectifier with one of the best shorts/leakage testers a Sencore TC28 which didn't reveal any problems.
   
  In circuit it arced after 10mins but I was lucky and my amp didn't sustain any damage.


----------



## Skylab

Yup, I had an amp (Wheatfield Audio) arc a 5998 output tube, and it blew the drivers in my DT990.  Good thing they were not on my head at the time, or my hearing would have been permanently damaged as well. It's not to be messed with.


----------



## rosgr63

The first time it happened it was a quad of untested TS 5998 from a "reputable" ebay seller.
  That was a few years ago.
   
  The second time it was a 5U8C rectifier in my Glenn OTL.
  The amp coped very well, I was very lucky.


----------



## dminches

And why do we love tubes????


----------



## rosgr63

Sometimes I wonder David.........
   
  If you discover why please tell, maybe then we can find a cure!!!!!!!!


----------



## Silent One

For some of us, isn't lack of funds suppose to provide _prevention?_


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





dminches said:


> And why do we love tubes????


 
   
  Sometimes one does have to wonder   But I know you know the answer...for many if not most who regularly read this thread, it's the combination of that certain something they provide sonically, along with the mystery/history that collecting them involves...


----------



## rosgr63

Rob, is that Love or Lust?


----------



## Skylab

Like any great relationship it involves elements of both


----------



## dminches

Rob, well said.


----------



## dminches

Stavros, you should hop on an airplane and meet us in Chicago for the Axpona audio show.


----------



## Skylab

It's sure going to be fun!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Stavros, you should hop on an airplane and meet us in Chicago for the Axpona audio show.


 
  I've been to Chicago once and I like it a lot.
  I have friends and relatives.
   
  I wish I could come and meet you all and then fly down to NC to meet Glenn!


----------



## dminches

Sell a couple tubes you know you will never use.  That'll cover the air fare.  We'll pay for the rest.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yup, I had an amp (Wheatfield Audio) arc a 5998 output tube, and it blew the drivers in my DT990.  Good thing they were not on my head at the time, or my hearing would have been permanently damaged as well. It's not to be messed with.


 
   
  5998 are scary when they malfunction.  After my naughty 5998 blew up my K701s I took the pad off to look at the driver.  It was literally stuffed into the plastic guard slits of the enclosure the way a hurricane would stuff tree branches through the slits of a fence.  If I had been wearing them at the time I probably would have a blown eardrum.
   
  It makes me cringe.  Still, every time I listen to something solid state in my apartment I'm reminded why it is all worth it.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Sell a couple tubes you know you will never use.  That'll cover the air fare.  We'll pay for the rest.


 
   
  Thanks David.
  You are very kind David and I do appreciate it.
  I am tied up to a project until summer and can't get any time off I am afraid.
   
  I'll be thinking about you all, I hope you'll post some pics, comments, etc.
  People photos as well not just gear!
   
  A pair of my 33S30 would cover most of the costs.................and I would still have 2 pairs left.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 






 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm scared...silently, so. But I'm goin' in for more sessions anyway!


----------



## Skylab

Of all the tube amps I have either owned or reviewed, only two of them arced - the Wheatfield, and the Decware CSP-2. In the case of the CSP-2, arcing 6DJ8's was a bummer, but not enough to damage headphones or ears, and it was cured with a different rectifier tube.  What both those amps had in common was a designer that encouraged VAST tube rolling options.  There were certain combinations which led to misbehavior.  I've never had arcing in any amp where the rolling was limited to different brands of the same tube type.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Indeed, if my next amp goes as planned there will be no tube rolling options whatsoever aside from picking a particular brand of rectifier or output tube.  The rectifier, driver and output tube _types_ will be singular with no substitutes aside from being able to run a 2A3 in place of a 45.
   
  Tube rolling is fun, but the big box of tubes that just sits kind of bothers me after one finds their idea combination.  Might as well set the amp up for that ideal combination from the beginning and skip all the unnecessary tube buying right?


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yup, I had an amp (Wheatfield Audio) arc a 5998 output tube, and it blew the drivers in my DT990.  Good thing they were not on my head at the time, or my hearing would have been permanently damaged as well. It's not to be messed with.


 
  Hey skylab,
  maybe a bit offtopic..but could u pls reply me on my questions regarding the blue circle headphone amp u once owned..am interested to buy one also..i sent u a pm a few days ago..thanks!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Like any great relationship it involves elements of both


 
   
  +1


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Indeed, if my next amp goes as planned there will be no tube rolling options whatsoever aside from picking a particular brand of rectifier or output tube.  The rectifier, driver and output tube _types_ will be singular with no substitutes aside from being able to run a 2A3 in place of a 45.
> 
> Tube rolling is fun, but the big box of tubes that just sits kind of bothers me after one finds their idea combination.  Might as well set the amp up for that ideal combination from the beginning and skip all the unnecessary tube buying right?


 
   
  I like this commitment.


----------



## rosgr63

xcalibur it will take some tube rolling to find the ideal combination.
   
  There is a variety of 45's in ST and Globe shape as well as a few different 2A3's.
   
  It'll be a lot more expensive than rolling 6SN7's and 6AS7G's, so be prepared.
   
  There is no end to tube rolling.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I picked up a few 45 STs a long time ago, and I consider myself set.  There really is no such thing as a bad sounding 45 tube after all.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I'm pretty well done with buying tubes, it feels good to actually be able to save a little bit here and there.  I was spending all my free money on new tubes for a while, and now I regret it.  I like the fact that this new amp will have a single driver choice and a single rectifier choice, the temptation will not be there.


----------



## Neogeo333

Stavros, thanks for suggesting the Fivre 6sn7gt a while back in the thread.  Just got a black and brown base and trying the black base first.  Its a wonderful tube to hear.
  Very nice presentation of the music and its got very good mids.  One particular attribute I like about this tube is somehow it has a slightly mellower sound and thus I hear a
  longer decay with my W3000ANV.  It is not muddy or too tubby.  It just that compared to let say the Sylvania 6sn7w metal base.  The Fivre sounds slower and mellower.  
  Not as clean sounding as the 6sn7w but very good indeed.  Its definitely a keeper.


----------



## KingStyles

Is there a good source for fivre 6sn7? I was looking for some and cant even find 1.


----------



## Neogeo333

I guess I luck out on ebay.  Sneeked out with a pair when the ebay gods were sleeping.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> I guess I luck out on ebay.  Sneeked out with a pair when the ebay gods were sleeping.


 
   
  I bid $170 for a pair of WE 421A's with 3 seconds left and I was the top bidder. Someone was able to sneak in a bid for $172.50 in the 3 remaining seconds. I thought it was no big deal because there were 2 other listings for single WE 421A's, I was bound to get at least one of those for around the same price. Those listings are now at $150 for EACH of them...


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Stavros, thanks for suggesting the Fivre 6sn7gt a while back in the thread.  Just got a black and brown base and trying the black base first.  Its a wonderful tube to hear.
> Very nice presentation of the music and its got very good mids.  One particular attribute I like about this tube is somehow it has a slightly mellower sound and thus I hear a
> longer decay with my W3000ANV.  It is not muddy or too tubby.  It just that compared to let say the Sylvania 6sn7w metal base.  The Fivre sounds slower and mellower.
> Not as clean sounding as the 6sn7w but very good indeed.  Its definitely a keeper.


 
   
   
  I am pleased you like the FIVRE, very nice tubes indeed.
   
  They come with different bases, black or brown and also grey or black plates.
  There is also a side getter version GTA/GTB style which is rare and worth trying.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Is there a good source for fivre 6sn7? I was looking for some and cant even find 1.


 
   
  Nice to hear from you sir!
  I mostly get them from ebay and from some Italian friends.
  Any particular type you are after?
   
   
   
  Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> I guess I luck out on ebay.  Sneeked out with a pair when the ebay gods were sleeping.


 
   
  That's the best way, well done George!


----------



## rosgr63

If anybody is looking for CBS Hytron 6SN7GT, clear-top-black-plates a friend is selling some nice ones, so do let me know.


----------



## KingStyles

I am just looking for a 6sn7 that kinda is like the mullard ecc35. Warm/lush and fairly even across the spectrum with good speed and detail. You know, pretty close to a perfect tube.lol I am going to have to find some quads of it.


----------



## rosgr63

Any particular type/brand you have in mind?


----------



## KingStyles

Dont care what brand, just doing my research for my new amp when I get it. It just has to be a 6sn7.


----------



## rosgr63

I know Electra takes only 6SN7's.
   
  BTW the Hytron are not bad tubes, my friend has a few for sale.


----------



## eantala

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> I bid $170 for a pair of WE 421A's with 3 seconds left and I was the top bidder. Someone was able to sneak in a bid for $172.50 in the 3 remaining seconds. I thought it was no big deal because there were 2 other listings for single WE 421A's, I was bound to get at least one of those for around the same price. Those listings are now at $150 for EACH of them...


 
  lol , i had to mention I was the one (nyksfan) who won that auction for the 421a.. I just felt like taking a gamble as that is how much a pair of 5998 are going for these days.  anyway the seller turned out to be really great, he charged $8 for shipping  but I got the package 2 days later and the label showed he paid $18 shipping, and paid actuall had it insured anyway the pair was date matched and the tubes really look brand new.  I just fired them up briefly then went back to my 5998s, will save those 421a for a rainy day.  I guess even if they are the same tube , me seeing that WE label will make them sound better


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





eantala said:


> lol , i had to mention I was the one (nyksfan) who won that auction for the 421a.. I just felt like taking a gamble as that is how much a pair of 5998 are going for these days.  anyway the seller turned out to be really great, he charged $8 for shipping  but I got the package 2 days later and the label showed he paid $18 shipping, and paid actuall had it insured anyway the pair was date matched and the tubes really look brand new.  I just fired them up briefly then went back to my 5998s, will save those 421a for a rainy day.  I guess even if they are the same tube , me seeing that WE label will make them sound better


 
  Haha nicely done, I must say I'm quite impressed by your ebay sniping skills. There's bound to be more that pop up on ebay, just gotta be patient. Enjoy


----------



## Skylab

This made me a little dizzy:
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/MASSIVE-VACUUM-TUBE-COLLECTION-OVER-50-000-TUBES-LOT-/221186559539


----------



## dminches

I am going to write him and ask if he has test data....
   
  Do you think there is any chance this is sold as is?  I don't.


----------



## EraserXIV

I think a group buy is in order?


----------



## Silent One

We just saw someone's life on full display.


----------



## Skylab

The problem is that collection probably isn't worth 1/4 of the asking price - maybe even less than that. Most of the time, those big collections have had all the valuable tubes cherry picked.  I spot checked the pics and I did not see one single 6SN7 or 12AX7. The best I spotted was a couple Tung Sol 6X4 rectifiers.  Many of those tubes if not most are unsellable.


----------



## Neogeo333

Last time I checked ebay there was a guy selling a huge lot with mostly British and German tubes in India.  It said it was from a local hifi store that closed down.  Man, imagine a box full of Telefunken ecc803 and Osram QB65.


----------



## KingStyles

The hytron tube sounds like it may be a good choice. Is it warmer/more lush than the tungsol bgrp? Also, how does the national union compare? Thanks for any insight.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Hytron are pretty midrange focused but not lush.  I would call the tung sol the warmer of the two personally.  Not to imply the Hytron is dry sounding or sterile, it isn't.  It sort of gives you another definition of neutral you might not have considered before, if that makes any sense.
   
  NU 6SN7 are some of the most romantic sounding tubes you will find, very lush, very mellow.  This comes at a price too.  They have a pretty, colored midrange (that only works with some material IMO), but are soft sounding tubes with less detail than many other 6SN7s.  Synergy matters with this tube too, it's particular colorations sometimes match badly with the existing tone of a setup, an vise versa sometimes can complement nicely.
   
  As always YMMV.


----------



## Hiyono

Hi, any 6sn7 addicts in LA area that would like to try the cavalli liquid glass and return I could try some of their tubes?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





hiyono said:


> Hi, any 6sn7 addicts in LA area that would like to try the cavalli liquid glass and return I could try some of their tubes?


 
   
   
  Any luck yet?
   
  Do you have any particular 6SN7 in mind?


----------



## Hiyono

No luck yet.  Just give it a bit more time.  Hopefully someone around here.
   
  Interesting in the Psvane cv181-t.  or GE ones.  I'm not too sure.  Im willing to give any of them a try and see how it sounds with my LCD-3 and AKG k701s.


----------



## rosgr63

I don't recommend the GE 6SN7, GE IMHO never made any good sounding 6SN7s.
   
  How many do you use in your amp?


----------



## Hiyono

Just two.


----------



## rosgr63

You are using a pair of 6SN7's as drivers right?
   
  Have you ever tried any 6F8G's?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I don't recommend the GE 6SN7, GE IMHO never made any good sounding 6SN7s.
> 
> How many do you use in your amp?


 
   
  I had a pair of NOS 1953 GE 6SN7GT's and they were clean, soft and very pedestrian sounding. And had to go!


----------



## Neogeo333

hiyono said:


> Just two.




If you have the Cavalli LG I recommend to try out the rare BL63. But you will need a 6f8g adapters. For that I recommend Glenn Studio, which happens to make mine. Make sure to tell him to make the cord 2 inches longer. The BL63 is taller than your average 6f8g. There's a guy from Italy now on ebay that sells them. Just make sure to haggle with him. That tube is top notch without having to buy expensive tubes like TS round plate or Ecc32. It even better that those two and half thw price.


----------



## dminches

How do the BL63s compare to 6SN7s, electrically?


----------



## rosgr63

They draw 1.4Amps compared to 0.6Amps of a 6SN7.
  In a typical 6SN7 amp they will damage the transformer.
   
  Glenn's OTL can handle the 1.4Amp easily.
  They are worth trying for sure.


----------



## Silent One

Depending on sound, I'm interested in getting these bad boys for my amp! Can't wait for your evaluation.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> They draw 1.4Amps compared to 0.6Amps of a 6SN7.
> In a typical 6SN7 amp they will damage the transformer.
> 
> Glenn's OTL can handle the 1.4Amp easily.
> They are worth trying for sure.


 
   
  Given my stock of 6SN7s, ECC32s, ECC33s and 6F8Gs, would this tube be superior to those in Glenn's OTL?


----------



## Silent One

.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Neogeo333

The BL63 sound signature is unique. My vocabulary limit my words in describing it. But from what other users have said in the ECBA thread, the BL63 is one of the top 6sn7 if your amp can support it. I have lended a pair to dBel84 to try on the Cavalli LG and maybe he can chime in and described it sound.


----------



## Silent One

This is exciting to hear and represents for me, _new frontier..._


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Given my stock of 6SN7s, ECC32s, ECC33s and 6F8Gs, would this tube be superior to those in Glenn's OTL?


 
   
  David I think it's worth a try, you only need one.
   
  I have not tried it as my transformer might be on the limit and I don't want to push it.
   
  I have read mixed comments about it, some people mentioned a weak low end, it's all about system synergy and personal preferences.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think it is all circuit dependent.  I have seen people say the ECC33 is bass weak and it gave me the best bass I've ever heard on headphones while I was demoing the tube.  The words "maybe this is too much bass" almost left my lips at one point and I'm pretty sure nobody listening to a K701 has ever said such a thing before.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Been wanting to find one of my own actually but the prices are just absurd and not worth it to me sadly enough.  I can't help but be curious what it would do on the LCD's though.  Probably provide a good head massage.


----------



## Sid-Fi

I still haven't tried ECC32 driver tubes yet. That's a shame...




dminches said:


> Given my stock of 6SN7s, ECC32s, ECC33s and 6F8Gs, would this tube be superior to those in Glenn's OTL?


----------



## CoffmanLabs

This was a television tube replacement for the 5U4.  A little more rugged with a little better current at high voltages.  It is a good tube--not used very often.  Great replacement in a power amp.


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur it's true a lot depends on the circuit.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





coffmanlabs said:


> This was a television tube replacement for the 5U4.  A little more rugged with a little better current at high voltages.  It is a good tube--not used very often.  Great replacement in a power amp.


 
   
 The 5U4 is a full wave rectifier.
  
 The ECC32 is a double triode similar to a 6SN7 but with a higher heater current 0.9Amp and higher gain.
  
 But I agree the ECC32 is a wonderful tube.


----------



## Neogeo333

is there anything an 6sn7 can not do?

www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Electronic-Skin-Toner-Elizabeth-Ungar-Tonatrone-With-6SN7-Tube-/261191313783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd0372977


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the tip George.
   
  Just as well it ships to US only!
   
  I bet it revitalises body and mind!


----------



## Neogeo333

I wonder if I use a TS round plate will it make my skin rounder compared to a staggered fivre?


----------



## rosgr63

Are you going to try?


----------



## Neogeo333

my wife complains I spend too much on tubes. maybe I can shut her up with this?


----------



## KingStyles

> my wife complains I spend too much on tubes. maybe I can shut her up with this?




Sure you can, but she will probably borrow some of your 6sn7 tubes to see which ones make the most difference. Maybe a tungsol bgrp, I heard they help tighten the bottom end....


----------



## Neogeo333

Or else I can try to tone my beer belly. 
  Any of you guys can describe the sound of the National Union NAVY 6sn7gt?  I am talking about the long one.  Any info?


----------



## Neogeo333

opps double post.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The one with the grey glass?  It has better resolution than the black glass NU but I didn't care for the tone.  Imagine the RCA grey glass only shouty and edgy in  the upper mid lower treble range instead of lush.  May have just been that tube, it was noisy so maybe it wasn't run enough to be broken in.


----------



## Neogeo333

I meant this one. 

  Most other NU 6sn7gt have like 3/4 in black glass and the other 1/4 in clear glass.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Yep, that's the one.  They are rather rare, the black glass is far more common.  I'm not sure my impressions are all that valid given the circumstances of the listening session, but FWIW I didn't care for them.  I know some people pursue these particular tubes pretty aggressively though.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> my wife complains I spend too much on tubes. maybe I can shut her up with this?


 
   
  I would be very worried if my gf didn't complain!!!!!! 
  Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Or else I can try to tone my beer belly.
> Any of you guys can describe the sound of the National Union NAVY 6sn7gt?  I am talking about the long one.  Any info?


 
   
  Can I borrow it when you are finished to tone mine please?
  Promise I'll be very careful with it.
  No need to send it with a tube I'll use one of my own.
   
  As for the Grey Glass NU they are very nice tubes.
  I tried them with my SP and they sounded great.
  Never tried them with my Glenn OTL yet.


----------



## dminches

Has anyone used/tried the Hytron 6F8Gs?


----------



## DefQon

What's do you guys think of using an 12AU7/6SN7 adapter? I got some nice 12AU7's I want to tube roll in my DV 336.


----------



## Neogeo333

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Has anyone used/tried the Hytron 6F8Gs?


 

 Dont they are all Sylvania rebrand?  They sure look a lot like the Sylvania.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





defqon said:


> What's do you guys think of using an 12AU7/6SN7 adapter? I got some nice 12AU7's I want to tube roll in my DV 336.


 
   
  I never tried the 12AU7 only 12AV7 and 12AZ7.


----------



## Blackmore

There are some great  NOS 12AU7 / 12AX7 around, not cheap either


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Dont they are all Sylvania rebrand?  They sure look a lot like the Sylvania.


 
   
  Good question.  I don't know.
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6F8G-VT-99-HYTRON-Tube-Lampe-TSF-Rohre-Valvola-NOS-/250873402136?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a69385318
   
  These look more like Tung Sols to me.


----------



## rosgr63

The Tung Sol have different supports at the top mica.
   
  They look like Sylvania to me too.


----------



## dminches

I love this thread.


----------



## Skylab

Those Hytrons do look like the Sylvania VT99's I have...except the all the Sylvanias I've seen have a Grey coating, not black.


----------



## dminches

That's what confused me.  That black coating looks to much like the Tung Sols.


----------



## rosgr63

David the photo is saturated, look how vivid the red is.
  Now if you reduce the saturation the glass is grey not black.
   
*Saturated*
   

   
   
*Normal*


----------



## dminches

Well done, Stavros!


----------



## Rob N

A nice pair of civilian metal bases with green printing


----------



## Neogeo333

I didnt know the british made russian tubes.  Or vice versa?


----------



## rosgr63

During the 1st cold war CCCP made tubes for European makers labelled as necessary to avoid various issues.


----------



## hodgjy

I have a very high opinion of many NOS cold war era Russian (CCCP) tubes.  Seem to be made to very tight specs and sound very linear.  There are exceptions, of course.
   
  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> During the 1st cold war CCCP made tubes for European makers labelled as necessary to avoid various issues.


----------



## toschek

What would be a good variant for someone who listens to mostly Classical & Jazz, but enjoys a bit of old school dub music and would want good bass extension on those occasions?  
   
  I am looking at a pair of Sylvania VT-231/6SN7-GT tubes at the moment as backups for my current RCA 6SN7-GTBs.
   
  Cheers!


----------



## KingStyles

I finally am done reading through this whole thread. I have a handle now on most of the 6sn7, except for the sylvanias. We need a list of all the different ones with pictures for reference, There kind of confusing. confused_face(1):


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





toschek said:


> What would be a good variant for someone who listens to mostly Classical & Jazz, but enjoys a bit of old school dub music and would want good bass extension on those occasions?
> 
> I am looking at a pair of Sylvania VT-231/6SN7-GT tubes at the moment as backups for my current RCA 6SN7-GTBs.
> 
> Cheers!


 
   
   
  The GTB's have a strong low end.
   
  I think the Sylvania 6SN7W may suit better, but a lot will depend on your system.
   
  Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I finally am done reading through this whole thread. I have a handle now on most of the 6sn7, except for the sylvanias. We need a list of all the different ones with pictures for reference, There kind of confusing. confused_face(1):


 
   
   
  adhoc has done an excellent job in his Reference thread but the photos are not available anymore.
   
  If he decides to put them back it will be fantastic, otherwise we'll have to create a Photo library from scratch.


----------



## KingStyles

It would be nice if we could update the reference thread by adding pictures, more tubes, and more comments. It is a great thread. Can it be in the wiki so it could be modified?


----------



## KingStyles

What is a 6n7gt and how is it different from a 6sn7?


----------



## Skylab

6N7 is a completely different tube from a 6SN7.


----------



## toschek

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The GTB's have a strong low end.
> 
> I think the Sylvania 6SN7W may suit better, but a lot will depend on your system.
> 
> ...



  
 I picked up a pair of GE GTA grey plates for $17.00 & shipping, they test good and sound like they'll be good from the description. 
  
  

```
[color=rgb(0, 255, 0)][b]6SN7GT / 6SN7GTA GE 1950-1955[/b]top rated 6SN7; nice imaging and romantic, satisfying sound, very good bass andaccurate, detailed midrange[/color]
```
  
 I also picked up another set of GTBs. I really like what they do, so why mess with (perceived) perfection.  I bought Sylvanias this time though, tubeworld.com speaks highly of them (and for $50 & shipping, I can't complain.)
  

```
[color=rgb(0, 255, 0)][b]6SN7GTB Sylvania "Chrome Top" 1950's[/b]1950's Chrome Top GTB and WGT are detailed, quiet, smooth, alive, musical, with good bass, a very good 6SN7[/color]
```


----------



## rosgr63

If you like the GTB flavor, try the Hitachi 6SN7GTB's.
   
  I like GTB's, Sylvania are very good, but I don't like GE 6SN7's much.
  There is a version of GE 6SN7GTB's with a light bridge on top which look very good in the dark.


----------



## Silent One

I believe I've heard (and may own) the Hitachi's in the GTB, they sound good. As does the ITT (Japan) in GTB bottles...


----------



## toschek

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> If you like the GTB flavor, try the Hitachi 6SN7GTB's.
> 
> I like GTB's, Sylvania are very good, but I don't like GE 6SN7's much.
> There is a version of GE 6SN7GTB's with a light bridge on top which look very good in the dark.


 
   
  What's a good price on the Hitachis?  I found a pair for $81, seems a bit steep.  I blew so much money on 6922 variants when I had a Lyr that I really want to avoid that this go round.


----------



## rosgr63

A nice Hitachi 6SN7GTB NIB pair costs $60 to $80.
   
  Check the ITT too as SO mentioned.
   
  Tube addiction is a serious ailment be very careful.........


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> There is a version of GE 6SN7GTB's with a light bridge on top which look very good in the dark.


 
  They look good but sadly they sound bad.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  GE tubes go from polite to boring to zippy and just plain bad the newer the vintage from my experience.  The oldest GTAs are actually pretty nice especially if you need to mellow out your system a bit.
   
  For people who want to go straight to a good sound without spending a fortune and don't find joy in rolling I still stand behind the early 50's 6SN7GT TungSol with or without the mouse ears.  Unless the system is already too lit up in the upper mid and lower treble area these tubes are hard to beat for the price they go for.  The ultimate bargain tubes are probably the mid 50's Sylvania tri-plate GTBs.  No trouble finding a pair of these for $20 on eBay and they sound just fine.


----------



## rosgr63

The black plate "mouse ears" style are one of my all time favorites.
  Good looks, rare, great sound, reasonably priced still. 
  Be careful they suffer from base cracks, which don't affect the tube function but the price.
   
  Xcalibur I think you meant Sylvania Triangular Bi-plates, very nice tubes indeed for the GTB lovers.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Indeed, I had a couple of pairs with base cracks.  That and they get mistaken for Russian tubes when they are the grey plate version, which is the one I send people looking for because they are cheaper and don't really sound any different as far as anybody can tell.  A tremendously resolving tube with big dynamics and maybe the best overall bass of any 6SN7 in the right circuit.  I have a crack free pair in mint original boxes I keep around just to have them even though I don't need 6SN7s in pairs anymore.
   
  I have been meaning to try my Hitatchi GTB with the Beyers, I think the synergy would be good there but I've caught yet another cold and my ears are plugged up so everything sounds awful right now.  Will have to wait sadly.  I think maybe the Hytron GT might work really well too, though I have been extremely pleased with the sound the Beyers are giving from my favorite Sylvania GT before the cold got me.


----------



## rosgr63

The getter is the give away between the CCCP and US tubes.
   
  The black plates are usually a much earlier production run and can sound better.
  It's not a rule just an observation.


----------



## CEE TEE

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> I finally am done reading through this whole thread. I have a handle now on most of the 6sn7, except for the sylvanias. We need a list of all the different ones with pictures for reference, There kind of confusing. confused_face(1):


 
_Yep, I am trying to figure out if at least 2 of these are real Chrome Domes or not:_
   
   

   
  I read that only the "real" chrome domes are a very specific year and then I get the impression that at least two of these should be...any help is appreciated!


----------



## Skylab

Who is to say what "real chrome domes" even means? That's not any sort of official, agreed upon designation.  
   
  Those tubes in your photo are very nice.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Who is to say what "real chrome domes" even means? That's not any sort of official, agreed upon designation.
> 
> Those tubes in your photo are very nice.


 

 Indeed.  It is just a nickname that was started in the information thread.  There is a lot of confusion over what tube it was even referring to.  From what I gather there was some sort of broad switch over sometime around 1953 to designs rated to GTA spec and these I personally perceive as being a bit inferior to the older ones, but there is so much variation within that short timespan one can never be certain.
   
  My golden rule with Sylvania tubes has become getter appearance.  If the flashing has a "dirty" look rather than a "clean" look then it is desirable.


----------



## CEE TEE

^Okay, thanks!


----------



## carusoracer

Longtime silent reader. Great thread!

I do not have a headphone rig anymore, mostly the big 2 ch Rig. Raised and acquired a pair of Sennheiser 424's in my youth, paired with dad's Knight tube amp and a beautiful Sherwood receiver the radio never sounded so good, and the Gerrard turntable really could sing. The 424's simply blew away any speaker I heard that dad or his friends had. Until I heard the big Infinity Ref sound powered by some monster amps, I have been chasing that tone ever since.

With that said, I have a deHavilland UltraVerve, paired with a nice Mundorf Silver Oil cap inside. I'm trying to sort out the Big tone 6SN7 sound in my rig.
I experimented with a NOS Tug Sol GTB and it sounds like every other Tung Sol I've tried with some subtle differences. Not really my sound...
I read the penultimate 40's Black Glass Round Plate is the one to capture. I'm hesitant as I can't trust that it does not have that some Tung Sol sound that I have, nice but just not what I'm want to live with long term.

I tried the Sylvania GTB, very nice sleeper tube. I luv the soundstage and musicality, but I gets a little ragged when pushed at the extreme top and bottom end. Never cared that much for the house Sylvania sound in 12au variants. But very nice in the 6SN7. So I'm hunting for the Metal Base W or the Short Bottle JAN CHS.
Any thoughts? Tastes, slighty warm side of neutral, sweet big tone midrange with detail. Top End smooth, not splashy highs,I and a very tight but firm bass region. I don't mind bloom but enjoy fast, detailed with wetness and reality. Classical, Down tempo chill, Bop Jazz, folk, new age.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## Xcalibur255

You pretty much described most of the better Sylvanias I would say.  Also, FWIW, the round plate tung sol and the 60's era GTB tung sols don't sound very much alike.  The former is most definitely a musical tube with a wet lilting quality few tubes have, the latter is technically competent but not inspiring in my opinion.  Round plates aren't sweet sounding like many Sylvanias are but they are organic and have unparalleled imaging abilities and 3D depth amongst all 6SN7s.


----------



## carusoracer

Thanks for the reply.
I have gleaned the thread here as well as others. Metal base or black W? Any preferences or qualities that can be described?


----------



## DogMeat

So, I am wanting to run some 6sn7's in my Woo WA6.
  Needing the 8pin to 9pin adaptors that are correct for the amp.
   
  Where are they available?
   
  Thanks for any help!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





carusoracer said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> I have gleaned the thread here as well as others. Metal base or black W? Any preferences or qualities that can be described?


 

 The metal base W is one of the few noteworthy Sylvanias I haven't owned.  They are one of the most highly regarded 6SN7 out there though and lots has been written about them.  I like the plastic base short glass W with the extra support rod, I have owned that type.  Very sweet sounding, almost too much depending upon the amp but it is a rich and musical sound.  I found the bass a little loose and they're not the last word in resolution but still on the good side. 
   
  My personal favorite Sylvania is a tube I try not to send people looking for because they are very hard to tell apart from the average sounding GTA tubes that were made right after them and everybody seems to buy the wrong one by mistake.  It is an early 50's GT with an extremely heavy top getter flash that appears to cover basically the entire length of the glass almost down to the base.  The fringing of the flash usually has a dirty look to it like it is transitioning from the usual silver color to more of a smoked burn on the glass.  It hits all your preferences, including a very fast bass that is easily better than any other Sylvania tube I have heard, or any other 6SN7 for that matter aside from maybe the "mouse ear" Tung Sol GT which brings a bit more slam with its speed.  They are cleaner and less romantic sounding than the normal Sylvania signature sound with less note decay and very clearly defined space between notes but they still have all the musicality of a "lush" tube IMO.  Whenever I am not rolling tubes for fun this is the one that goes in the amp as the standard tube of choice.  I have one in my amp right now actually.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





dogmeat said:


> So, I am wanting to run some 6sn7's in my Woo WA6.
> Needing the 8pin to 9pin adaptors that are correct for the amp.
> 
> Where are they available?
> ...


 

 Last I saw Woo Audio themselves make this adapter.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





carusoracer said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> I have gleaned the thread here as well as others. Metal base or black W? Any preferences or qualities that can be described?


 
  First of all thanks for your kind comments.
   
  If you get the Sylvania W metal base then you'll probably have the best Sylvania 6SN7 and most people would agree.
  There is the same bottle in a black base which sounds very close to the metal base and much cheaper.
  The metal base ones suffer form cracks, which will affect the price but not the sound.
   
  I tried the Sylvania Xcalibur described but in my system and with my preferences it didn't beat one of my all time favorites the Sylvania W short base with the lower mica inside the base.
   
   
  Quote: 





dogmeat said:


> So, I am wanting to run some 6sn7's in my Woo WA6.
> Needing the 8pin to 9pin adaptors that are correct for the amp.
> 
> Where are they available?
> ...


 
   
   
  You can also ask 2359glenn he makes quality and reasonably priced adapters.


----------



## toschek

Are these any good? These are the ones I mentioned a few posts back:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170994696516?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121078261738?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

I'm keeping my hands out of the piggy bank for a few months. I'm saving toward replacement speakers which are still TBD while I window shop so no more tube impulse buys for me.


----------



## dminches

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> My personal favorite Sylvania is a tube I try not to send people looking for because they are very hard to tell apart from the average sounding GTA tubes that were made right after them and everybody seems to buy the wrong one by mistake.  It is an early 50's GT with an extremely heavy top getter flash that appears to cover basically the entire length of the glass almost down to the base.  The fringing of the flash usually has a dirty look to it like it is transitioning from the usual silver color to more of a smoked burn on the glass.  It hits all your preferences, including a very fast bass that is easily better than any other Sylvania tube I have heard, or any other 6SN7 for that matter aside from maybe the "mouse ear" Tung Sol GT which brings a bit more slam with its speed.  They are cleaner and less romantic sounding than the normal Sylvania signature sound with less note decay and very clearly defined space between notes but they still have all the musicality of a "lush" tube IMO.  Whenever I am not rolling tubes for fun this is the one that goes in the amp as the standard tube of choice.  I have one in my amp right now actually.


 
   
  Tyrell, any pictures?


----------



## Xcalibur255

I created comparison pictures for this once, they are in my album:  http://www.head-fi.org/g/i/173154/tubes01-jpg/
   
  Tube in question is far left, compared to the one that is second from the right with the "cleaner" looking getter flash.  That's the GTA style.  The other two are the 6SN7W short glass w/ support rod and the "Bad Boy"  GT.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





toschek said:


> Are these any good? These are the ones I mentioned a few posts back:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/170994696516?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/121078261738?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
> ...


 

 First auction buyer overpaid if you ask me, the second auction buyer got a good deal if he was looking for the kind of sound those GE tubes offer.


----------



## toschek

Ugh, I was afraid of that.   So I overpaid on the first batch, but did OK on the second batch.  I guess it all evens out in the end.   
   
  I'm still getting a feel for the 6SN7 market, and I guess I'm bound to overpay for a couple of things until I understand the pricing a little better.   At least it wasn't a $200 mistake.
   
  Can you perhaps recommend a couple of good value tubes?   I don't really want to pay more than $40 a set.   Looking for balanced sound, tight low end & highs which are not grainy or bright.  My amp has great mids but can probably use a little push on the top and bottom?   I'm using Amperex JAN CEP 6922s in the input stage.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Honestly I would try out the Sylvanias you already bought, they might give you what you're looking for.  You can get them cheaper than the price you paid but they are still good tubes.  Sometimes the price is determined by rarity, not necessarily by how good it is.  Some of the tubes that go for high prices I think are pretty mediocre.  There's nothing wrong with the Sylvanias you bought so give them a spin before spending more.


----------



## Skylab

I've actually never heard a Sylvania 6SN7 of any variety that I didn't think sounded at least pretty good. Some are pretty great, IMO, like the 6SN7WGT, and the 6SN7W tall bottle but black (not metal) base. The metal base 6SN7W is very nice too but I think costs too much. The VT-231 is very nice too.

But even a runof the mill Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounds pretty good to me.


----------



## rosgr63

Talking about rare tubes, what about a Tung-Sol 6SN7 with Mouse Ears and top getter?


----------



## Neogeo333

that sure is a rare tube. My guess is that it will sound like a mouse ears but it will cost too much because of the rarity.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I have seen that type once before with the freakishly tall glass.  They are indeed rare, like the BGRP Tung Sols with the square micas.


----------



## Skylab

Wow Stavros that IS a rare one! Wow. Cool!


----------



## toschek

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Honestly I would try out the Sylvanias you already bought, they might give you what you're looking for.  You can get them cheaper than the price you paid but they are still good tubes.  Sometimes the price is determined by rarity, not necessarily by how good it is.  Some of the tubes that go for high prices I think are pretty mediocre.  There's nothing wrong with the Sylvanias you bought so give them a spin before spending more.


 
   
  I got both today and I am trying the Sylvania tubes right now.  Immediately I think they lend an improvement to soundstage. Instruments are much more left/right forward/back as they are supposed to be, it's marked over the RCAs I had in there before.   The RCA lent a bit of warmness, these still are a tad warm but not as much.  I like warmness to a degree, and the RCAs were IMO good, these are better though.  The warmth is somehow more tasteful?  restrained?   I don't know how to express it, but it's warm when it needs to be?   As far as SQ, they have shown taut bass & airy highs without any glassy bits.   Digging them so far, I guess I am obligated to since I overpaid !
   
  I still like the RCAs, however they will be demoted to backup after today.   I have yet to try the GE tubes, maybe they will be OK too, but I'm in no hurry.
   
  Edit: By request, here are some pictures of the Sylvania GTBs


----------



## carusoracer

Very good expressive and detailed comments. The exact amount information I have been looking for.

I'm out find what I can within reason. I have yet to find a metal base or W, but I'm sure they're out in someone's hands to sell.

Interesting comment about the short black base w as being loose in the bass region. I do not favor that type of sound yet I do like the slight warmth in lower mids.


----------



## carusoracer

Double post


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> that sure is a rare tube. My guess is that it will sound like a mouse ears but it will cost too much because of the rarity.


 
   
  George, I don't expect it will sound any better than the ordinary mouse ears, maybe worst.
  It cost me 4 times as much as an ordinary mouse ears, so I did overpay no doubt.
  I'll let you know how it sounds when it arrives.
   
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I have seen that type once before with the freakishly tall glass.  They are indeed rare, like the BGRP Tung Sols with the square micas.


 
   
  I have square type micas in Tung-Sol and NU versions, but never seen Mouse Ears with a D-Type Foil Getter before.
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Wow Stavros that IS a rare one! Wow. Cool!


 
   
  Thanks Rob, it's my rarest find yet, but with tubes you never know.


----------



## carusoracer

Question to all,

I have been tube rolling in my preamp, and have been absolutely smitten with this not so rare, rather common grade, for the most part, Sylvania 6SN7GTB.
I'm told that the red lettering on the base was only on hand for TV repairman. This tube has a circle getter average flashing and The ladder type plate with an alloy looking silver circular mice. It reads AeX? On the black base.


----------



## carusoracer

Can anyone identify the vintage of that tube? Very nice tone, great soundstage and at top end that seems a little shimmery but still has nice sparkle.

If the higher end older Sylvania tubes sound better than this one, wow I'm looking forward to hearing it! I still have yet to source a Jan CHS W metal base or the short bottle Jan CHS W early Green lettered black base tube.
.
Great thread!


----------



## rosgr63

Does your GTB have any numbers on the base or top?
   
  Any chance of a photo?


----------



## carusoracer

The numbers are on the tube identifying 6SN7GTB on the side 
There are no other numbers on the glass itself 

I thought it read in Red lettering the black base ec ALX Sylvania
I will have to sort thru how to post pics via an iPhone.


----------



## rosgr63

I am afraid I can only tell from the date codes like 123 or 6123 etc.
   
  I can't tell from letter sequences on US tubes, sorry.


----------



## carusoracer

Would the sound of the brown base 6SN7W JAN CHS sound the same as the Black base? When were the production dates? 1950's?


----------



## rosgr63

Is this the Brown Base Sylvania 6SN7W you are referring to?
   
  This was made in 1952 with date code 245


----------



## carusoracer

Nice picture. Would that be the Date Code and the best of the brown base to look for? How would it compare to the earlier 6SN7W JAN CHS Black base short bottle?


----------



## Xcalibur255

I believe the brown base W is more commonly found with T-plates if I'm not mistaken.  A nice find there.


----------



## rosgr63

That's right xcalibur, T-plates are more common.
   
  carusoracer that is the date code, first digit is the production year and the other two the production week.
   
  I am not sure it's the one to go for it's just the one I have, but for my tastes it can't beat the short bottle brown base made during WWII.


----------



## mikek200

I'm new to the 6sn7 tube,& recently,got a crack amp
  One of the tubes I'm using ,is the GE5814
  Can anyone give me an opinion on these tubes:
   
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/310651601652?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
   
  Any info will be appreciated
   
  Tnx
  Mike


----------



## Skylab

The crack uses a 12AU7 driver tube, not a 6SN7. Are you planning to use the 6SN7 in a different amp? Or to modify your Crack to accept a 6SN7?


----------



## mikek200

I was under the assumption that I can you a 6sn7 tubes,with an adapter:
   
  Like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300886629989?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
  Please correct me,if I'm wrong on this..
   
  Tnx
  Mike


----------



## Skylab

You probably can - although it's always best to check with the amp's maker.

As for the tubes you linked, they are not my personal favorite, even of VT-231's. I like the Sylvania VT-231 best, excluding the Tung-Sol black glass round plates, some of which were labeled VT-231 (the US military designation for a 6SN7). Those Ken-Rads will have a very robust bass, but most people I know find them a bit muddy, as do I.


----------



## mikek200

So,I can use them-Correct?
  Tnx for the tube info, 
   
   others I've picked upi,& yet to use are:
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121059549799?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
  &
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281044168904?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
  Do you have a honest reliable seller,where I can buy adapters?
  I find it difficult to order from China ,sometimes?


----------



## Skylab

I'm not saying you can or can't use them. You need to ask Bottlehead.

The two tubes you already bought are nicer than the one you asked about, though, IMO.


----------



## BmWr75

I bought a 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter off eBay.  It works fine.  There is a lot of discussion on this topic in this thread.  Somewhere in the thread, Doc from Bottlehead chimes in and says the 6SN7 with an adapter works fine in the Crack amp.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/476650/crack-bottlehead-otl
   
  Here is what Doc said specifically about 3 weeks ago.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/476650/crack-bottlehead-otl/1680#post_9308197


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





bmwr75 said:


> I bought a 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter off eBay.  It works fine.  There is a lot of discussion on this topic in this thread.  Somewhere in the thread, Doc from Bottlehead chimes in and says the 6SN7 with an adapter works fine in the Crack amp.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/476650/crack-bottlehead-otl
> 
> ...


 
  Tnx BmW,
  Bottlehead was the first place I checked,but thanks for the thread...just wanted to see what other tube choices I have.
  Is your adapter,the one I linked above??
   
  My main concern was if the adapter ,will degrade the SQ of the tube.
  As there are thousands of tubes to choose from,in the 6sn7 family..I thought I'd  try to get a Ken-Rad,some think it is a good tube,but,it may not work for me...I am not a muddy basshead
  As of now,for my Crack,& the HD800's..I have chosen a Tung-sol 5998 with a Amperex bugle boy longplates,and,I'm extremely pleased
  I listen to mainly classical,acoustic guitar,& other s.
   
  Mike


----------



## Xcalibur255

As long as an adapter is decently made it can't hurt the performance of a tube. Its just passing the electrical connections from one set of pins to another.


----------



## BmWr75

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> Is your adapter,the one I linked above??


 
   
  Yep, that is the one.


----------



## rosgr63

A friend is selling some nice British and Dutch made black base B65's and L63's.
   
  The tubes are used but are rare finds and well worth having IMHO.
   
  I am actually getting a couple but more are left, if anyone is interested send me a PM to give you his details.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> A friend is selling some nice British and Dutch made black base B65's and L63's.
> 
> The tubes are used but are rare finds and well worth having IMHO.
> 
> I am actually getting a couple but more are left, if anyone is interested send me a PM to give you his details.


 
   
  Great! Is there a tube out there with similar sound and character that I could relate to as an example of the B65's sonics?


----------



## Neogeo333

maybe the 12v version of it the b36?


----------



## KingStyles

Just curious, has anybody ever tried these? Meixing Mingda 6SN7


----------



## rosgr63

Josh if they sound as good as they look it would be fantastic!
   
  George you are right, the B36 do sound like the B65.


----------



## toschek

kingstyles said:


> Just curious, has anybody ever tried these? Meixing Mingda 6SN7




No, I haven't but I've been eyeing them. They look pretty, and are a bit pricey for me right now. I'm interested in how they sound too.


----------



## Neogeo333

Just and update about those National Union NAVY 6sn7gt I got a few weeks ago, well one of them is very noisy.  Just my luck, with the usual tapping and leaving it playing for 5 hours it still noisy.  About there sound, they are kind of laid back sound and definitely not on par with like say a Fivre 6sn7 or even a clear glass staggered Ken Rad.


----------



## rosgr63

Sorry to hear this George.
   
  Are these the grey glass version?
   
  Take a hot soldering Iron and run over the pins a few times.
   
  Sometimes a bad/deteriorating solder joint causes noise problems.
  By heating up the pins sometimes the solder melts and makes a good contact again.
   
  BTW you are not the only one who has this problem, when you deal with vintage tubes it happens.


----------



## musicman59

Guys and ladies,
  I am reducing my rectifier and driver tube collection. PLease check out my posts in the accessories for sale forum.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tubes!
  Good Luck.


----------



## blubliss

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> A friend is selling some nice British and Dutch made black base B65's and L63's.
> 
> The tubes are used but are rare finds and well worth having IMHO.
> 
> I am actually getting a couple but more are left, if anyone is interested send me a PM to give you his details.


 
  Bummer, I got one of each of these tubes and they look great.  I should have asked my amp builder before though because he says they draw too much current to be used.  This is in the Balancing Act.  Oh well, anyone want to buy these?


----------



## rosgr63

The B65 are the British military version of the 6SN7, they have the same specs and are safe to use on the BA, there is nothing to worry about.
   
  The BA can even handle the ECC32 which draw a much higher current without any problem.
  The problem comes from using the BL63 unless you have an upgraded power supply. 
   
  I received my pair of B65 and a B36.
  They look and test excellent and I am currently amp testing.


----------



## blubliss

Yes, you are correct, Craig told me he mistook the B65 for something else. Thank you. Will listen when I can pull myself away from the 009/T2


----------



## rosgr63

You are most welcome.
   
  I would never recommend something if I wasn't 100% sure.


----------



## Neogeo333

Still, most newer BA will run BL63 fine, and that tube is recommend by Craig and other BA users.  Was it only the earlier revision of the BA that could not handle the extra amps needed for the BL63?  They kinda sound like a Mullard ecc32 but with more authority.  Got a couple when they were like 50.00 each.


----------



## rosgr63

The newest version can handle the extra current of the BL634.
  The 2nd Run can handle the extra current of the ECC32, I don't know about the other versions.
  Talking form memory (please double check to be sure) he 6SN7 draws 0.6A, the ECC32 0.9A and the BL63 1.4A.
   
  Some people don't like the BL63's that much, so a lot depends on the system and personal preferences.
  I have not tried it even though my Glenn OTL can handle the current.


----------



## toschek

The set of Ken-Rad VT231s I bought from musicman59 showed up yesterday, I LOVE these tubes. A vast improvement over the Sylvania GTB tubes I'd installed earlier. Hoping that the rest of the tubes I have for sale sell quickly so that I can pick up a backup pair.


----------



## sacd lover

Try cleaning the tube pins ....


----------



## sacd lover

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> Just and update about those National Union NAVY 6sn7gt I got a few weeks ago, well one of them is very noisy.  Just my luck, with the usual tapping and leaving it playing for 5 hours it still noisy.  About there sound, they are kind of laid back sound and definitely not on par with like say a Fivre 6sn7 or even a clear glass staggered Ken Rad.


 
   
   
  Try cleaning the tube pins.


----------



## Neogeo333

I did, on some tubes it works but this one it doesnt help.  I have since then put on almost 20 hours on them and the noise seems to gotten better but still present.  Maybe it needs more time to settle?


----------



## rosgr63

Have you tried heating up the pins?


----------



## Neogeo333

I wish I had a soldering iron Stavros.  Might need to somehow use the electric stove
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  I will probably just leave it as it until I get hold of a iron.  In the mean time just got another pair of Fivre 6sn7 to play with.  I'm starting to like this tube more and more.  Stavros do you know if the Sicte and Fivre are the same?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi George, I don't recommend using a stove but a soldering iron when you get the chance.
   
  The Sicte are not the same as the FIVRE, and are worth a try.
   
  Which Fivre did you get?


----------



## Neogeo333

Got another grey plates and black base.   This one got the sticker on the glass.


----------



## rosgr63

Side or bottom getter?


----------



## dminches

Is it me or have Colomor's prices gone through the roof?  Everything they have listed seems ridiculously priced.


----------



## rosgr63

From sometime ago, I am afraid.


----------



## dminches

Do they actually sell anything at those prices?


----------



## Neogeo333

rosgr63 said:


> Side or bottom getter?



bottom getter. did fivre made a side getter one?


----------



## rosgr63

Yes, here they are:


----------



## setamp

Who is a good source of Fivre 6sn7's?


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks Stavros. I don't know, but all the 6sn7 I've heard with side getters from GE to RCA and Raytheon all sounds mediocre. I hope the Fivre doesn't sound like them.


----------



## rosgr63

It's been too long since I listened to them, I don't think they were better than the usual ones.


----------



## Neogeo333

setamp, check ebay, theres a guy from Italy selling fivre 6sn7. give him an offer he can't refuse. The price for the tubes are reasonable but shipping is killer. prepare to drop out 110 to 125 with shipping to the states. Definitely not cheap.


----------



## setamp

Thanks.


----------



## rosgr63

Musicman59 has a nice pair brown base black plates for sale, check the FS forums.


----------



## musicman59

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Musicman59 has a nice pair brown base black plates for sale, check the FS forums.


 
  Thanks!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  And they are still available.


----------



## joyway

Hi, I want a Super7. Could anyone tell me that if I need to buy the tube package ? Thank you very much.^_^


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Very nice tubes, I am surprised they are still available. 
   
  Quote: 





joyway said:


> Hi, I want a Super7. Could anyone tell me that if I need to buy the tube package ? Thank you very much.^_^


 
   
  Very nice amp.
  If you have enough matched pairs I don't think you need the tube package.
   
  Check this thread for more info:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/579039/review-and-comparison-eddie-current-balancing-act-and-super-7


----------



## toschek

Anyone want to sell me a backup pair of Ken-Rad VT231s with the black base/smoked glass? I love these tubes and I'm having a hard time finding a set of spares.


----------



## Skylab

I may have some I could sell...send me a PM please so I remember to check.


----------



## CEE TEE

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Very nice tubes, I am surprised they are still available.


 
  I already tried to buy one of  *@musicman59*'s Fivre tubes since I don't know what they sound like...anyone want to go half-sies with me?


----------



## joyway

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Very nice tubes, I am surprised they are still available.
> 
> 
> Very nice amp.
> ...


 
   
  Thank you  for your kind reply.I don't have any tube. If S7 with the stock tube is good enough, I don't want to roll the tube soon. I think listening for some days  is better for me. But If the S7 with the stock tube sounds not gppd , I think I need  the tube package. Pls give me some advice. Thanks so much.


----------



## rosgr63

You are most welcome.
   
  The amp comes with no tubes or the basic tube pack which are  7 Tung-Sol re-issues.
  Now I don't like them but if I was starting from scratch I would get the basic pack for two reasons.
   
  A.The tubes are tested and are safe to use.
  B. You have to start from a base line.
   
  You can then read and learn about 6SN7's and slowly experiment with different pairs and see how they affect your system.


----------



## joyway

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> You are most welcome.
> 
> The amp comes with no tubes or the basic tube pack which are  7 Tung-Sol re-issues.
> Now I don't like them but if I was starting from scratch I would get the basic pack for two reasons.
> ...


 
  So I have to order the tube package. Thank you so much for your advice.


----------



## rosgr63

Check with Craig first to be sure.
   
  Be careful you don't get the tube addiction.


----------



## Xcalibur255

If you are completely new to tubes I agree starting with the standard re-issue TungSols is the way to go.  They will be reliable and quiet and you have to start somewhere to establish your preferences.  Then if you are curious about old stock tubes you can pick up some reasonable Sylvania or RCA GTB tubes and you will already have something to compare them to in order to tell the difference.


----------



## CEE TEE

^I agree, also good to use to burn your amp in and get used to the signature.
   
  After getting to know the Super 7, you can search Super 7 threads and owners to see what they are running and ask them.
   
  Will depend upon what you are looking to change which is dependent upon the phones you have, the recordings that you listen to, the source...oh just start with the stock tubes.
   
  Or the Electro-Harmonix here.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

Dear headfier's, please pay attention to my sale 6SN7GT (1940-1950).


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Just curious, has anybody ever tried these? Meixing Mingda 6SN7


 
   
  Yes. Not worth the asking price imo. $140 for a pair is the avg price afloat on ebay.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stalkerassassin said:


> Dear headfier's, please pay attention to my sale 6SN7GT (1940-1950).


 
  Your Bad boys are pretty hefty at $50, I got won mine for $22 shipped.


----------



## mikek200

I'm looking for a... 9 pin base to 6sn7 {on top } adapter.
   
  This will used on the Crack Amp  w/speedball..
  Is this doable,& is it safe?
   
  Anyone  know where I can get this,in the USA,or have one built?
   
  Thanks
  Mike


----------



## rosgr63

Are you thinking about a 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter?
   
  Like the one shown in this auction?
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-convert-tube-socket-12AX7-12AU7-to-6SL7-6SN7-9-pin-to-8-pin-/281031554093?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item416ec9342d


----------



## mikek200

Yup,thats exactly what I am looking for..
  Is it safe to use this kind of setup??..don't want to blow up my Crack amp..
   
  Jesus,don't know why I couldn't find it on e-bay?
  You wouldn't happen to know of a seller in the USA,would you?
   
  Many thanks Rosgr,
  Mike


----------



## BmWr75

It is safe.  I use the adapter in my Crack.  Doc B from Bottlehead says it is safe too.
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6SN7-to-12AU7-Vacuum-tube-adapter-socket-converter-/290910041008?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43bb96f3b0
   
  Be sure and get the 6.3V version, not the 12V version.  They look nearly the same.  The 6.3V version is shown in the link above.


----------



## DefQon

Just search for 6sn7 adaptor on ebay and you get alot of results returned. That said I have at least one of each of all those adaptors available and the 6sn7 upgrade using an adaptor is the 6F8G.


----------



## mikek200

Do you mean,its the same as using a 6F8G tube..???? ..not sure I follow you?
   
  Do you have any issues with the adapters,such as ...noise?
   
  Tnx
  Mike


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> Do you mean,its the same as using a 6F8G tube..???? ..not sure I follow you?
> 
> Do you have any issues with the adapters,such as ...noise?
> 
> ...


 
  No noise issues except I did get a bit of hum from a few of my Tele 12AU7 using one of the adaptors, turned out to the adaptor have a fault. 6SN7 adaptor that takes 6F8G tube is an upgrade over the other tube adaptors. But 6F8G tubes don't really come cheap and not much of a variety available.


----------



## mikek200

After I got the crack--I went on a 6sn7 tube spree..dont think I payed more than $30.00 for any of them..bought maybe 5/6 tubes?
   
  So,now I will have a chance to hear them with the TS 5998's
   
  Tnx for the info Def


----------



## Neogeo333

another tube roller in the making. Your wallet will soon feel the heat. But it's worth it nonetheless. Happy tube rolling Mike.


----------



## mikek200

It's already started...I went threw this when I had the Lyr.
yesterday,I bought a pair of WE 421a. & a GEC straight brown base.

I,ve been hiding from my wife ,ever since then !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Nic Rhodes

GEC, nice  Pick of the crop.


----------



## DefQon

Damn expensive too.


----------



## mikek200

Here they are:....OUCH,
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370551093320?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
  And,,ouch again,
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221218283945?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
  Honestly,I have a feeling,that the WE's will sound almost identical to my TS 5998's..which, with the 12au7 Siemens,silver plates,,are unbelievable.
   
  A few guys have commented,that because I'm using the HD800's & crack amp,,that MIGHT NOT  be the case,because these cans are so resolving.
  Atleast I hope so.
   
  Any opinions/comments would be appreciated,as,it might assist in easying the pain,while my wife removes....ahumm....certain parts of my anatomy.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> Here they are:....OUCH,
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/370551093320?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
> 
> ...


 
  A 1940's to 50's CBS 5814 drop in to replace your current Siemens should take the sound to a newer level with that 5998. But again if you get a GEC brown base in there you should even get a better layering of depth added to your music as GEC tubes are good at but I haven't heard the 6SN7 variant yet but Rob (Skylab) reckons it's the best out of the family.


----------



## Xcalibur255

We have gone back and forth quite a bit in the 6AS7 thread about the WE421A tubes.  The loose consensus is that they are not *quite* identical to the 5998 spec-wise but probably sound so close that there is no point in differentiating.  I personally would not pay the premium they go for over the 5998 which itself is crazy expensive now.  The WE's certainly are pretty though, they seem to always be bottom getters where as most (but not all) of the 5998 are top getter.  Rob has some of every variant I believe, but I think bottom getter tubes are always a little sexier than top getter ones.


----------



## mikek200

There are two versions of the gec's ,...a straight base,& a curved base..the curved base runs about $100.00 more,and many respected head-fiers,seems to think the difference in price is NOT justified...so,I went with the straight base.
   
  I did a quick search on e-bay at those CBS tubes,..there a few different models
  Which ones exactly ,should I be looking at?
   Price seems very attractive
  Do you have a link??
   
  Tnx
  Mike


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> There are two versions of the gec's ,...a straight base,& a curved base..the curved base runs about $100.00 more,and many respected head-fiers,seems to think the difference in price is NOT justified...so,I went with the straight base.
> 
> I did a quick search on e-bay at those CBS tubes,..there a few different models
> Which ones exactly ,should I be looking at?
> ...


 
  Yeah they are about $50-100 for the NOS 1940-5's. The 1950's which are still good but I have seen some rebranded as Hytron selling for $120+ is a load of bullocks. My one had gold lettering similar to the Gold Lions (also good but not worth the asking price afloat on ebay). Unfortunately I did not buy mine on ebay as there are alot of fakes (such as rebranded fake Teslas) so I buy them from a local supplier who gets them from European tube stock holders. I got mine for $145 for 3. Tested 99/98 NOS. My absolute favourite tube of all time is the Psvane and Sophia E's grade a 12AU7's which are the best modern production 12au7's you can buy and would give any vintage non-reissue Gold Lion or Tele diamond base a run for it's money.


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> We have gone back and forth quite a bit in the 6AS7 thread about the WE421A tubes.  The loose consensus is that they are not *quite* identical to the 5998 spec-wise but probably sound so close that there is no point in differentiating.  I personally would not pay the premium they go for over the 5998 which itself is crazy expensive now.  The WE's certainly are pretty though, they seem to always be bottom getters where as most (but not all) of the 5998 are top getter.  Rob has some of every variant I believe, but I think bottom getter tubes are always a little sexier than top getter ones.


 
  OK,sorry to rehash this topic then...
   
  Pretty???
  I could care less...
  For me to drop $325.00 for a pair of tubes..{I know,I know?}..because they are pretty,is so rediculous,and I can't think of any idiot doing that,but??..to each his own..
  Being not "quite" identical ,is even worse ,that tubes being pretty--thats why I just returned my TS 7236 to the seller and got a full refund.,seller told me ,that they were identical in SQ to the TS 5998,and,with my ears,they are  not.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> OK,sorry to rehash this topic then...
> 
> Pretty???
> I could care less...
> ...


 

 Some people find some enjoyment in the visual appearance of the tubes.  It doesn't have to be only about the sound.
   
  I'm a little tempted to ask what the point of your post was, or why you felt it necessary to be so candid with it, but this is the 6SN7 thread so I'm simply going to leave it at that.


----------



## mikek200

My apologies Excalibur,
  Didn't mean for my reply to sound so aggressive,& yes,you are correct,I will really appreciate it,if the tubes give off a pleasant glow.
  I'll soon find out..
   
  Mike


----------



## Xcalibur255

No worries.  I hope your new tubes work out for you.
   
  Cheers.


----------



## rosgr63

Mike if you are looking for a US quality made top notch adapter contact 2359glenn by PM.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> There are two versions of the gec's ,...a straight base,& a curved base..the curved base runs about $100.00 more,and many respected head-fiers,seems to think the difference in price is NOT justified...so,I went with the straight base.
> 
> I did a quick search on e-bay at those CBS tubes,..there a few different models
> Which ones exactly ,should I be looking at?
> ...


 
   
   
  There is also the rare black base version made by MOV and labelled Osram here they are:


----------



## Skylab

Stavros you have truly become the king of rare, obscure tube variants, my friend


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob, it's the tube addiction, I can't shake it off.
   
  Here's my other pair with better logos:
   
   
   

   
   
  Finally with brown base & Osram logo


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Mike if you are looking for a US quality made top notch adapter contact 2359glenn by PM.


 
  Ros,
  Thanks for that info,will make note of it


----------



## mikek200

An update on my WE-421a's
   
  Just got delivery -5 minutes ago
  One of the tubes ,seems to be faulty,or damaged.
   
  When, I pick it up,something rattles inside the tube.
  As far as,I can determine..it is coming from inside the base..
  Reluctant to place in my amp,and see if lights up..
   
  Contacted the seller,waiting, for a reply
  Not a good start to my we-421a 's


----------



## GrindingThud

That is not necessarily bad....and quite common. If the tube is still silver, it's holding a vacuum and not broken. It could be a bit of glass or glue. Some tubes have crushed glass bits inside. I'd try the tube...just don't have your expensive cans plugged in until warmed up. That's what I use my skullcandys for. 



mikek200 said:


> An update on my WE-421a's
> 
> Just got delivery -5 minutes ago
> One of the tubes ,seems to be faulty,or damaged.
> ...


----------



## mikek200

Thanks GrindingThud,
   I appreciate that info..will remember that for the next time..
   
  Seller has contacted me,and has offered a full refund,which I will take.
  Just not comfortable,with any rattling, going on, inside my tubes


----------



## GrindingThud

Wow, I just read this thread from end to end....lots of great info. I've got a pair of adapters on order from Woo, now I need some tubes to put in them. So many choices, it possible to buy just one pair?


----------



## Silent One

Adapters for which particular tube(s)?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> That is not necessarily bad....and quite common. If the tube is still silver, it's holding a vacuum and not broken. It could be a bit of glass or glue. Some tubes have crushed glass bits inside. I'd try the tube...just don't have your expensive cans plugged in until warmed up. That's what I use my skullcandys for.


 
   
   
  I agree, sometimes glue can come off inside the base or a piece of glass can brake off during production.
  In case of broken glass it's best to shake the tube to make sure the lose glass goes to the bottom and doesn't touch the elements.
   
  However it's very important to test the tubes before you use them in your amp to make sure there are no shorts or leakages.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


>


 
   
  Just gorgeous with intact labels!


----------



## GrindingThud

6CG7 to 6SN7 so I can use the 6SN7 in my amp without changing the socket out.



silent one said:


> Adapters for which particular tube(s)?


----------



## DefQon

How are those Osram's?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> 6CG7 to 6SN7 so I can use the 6SN7 in my amp without changing the socket out.


 
   
   
  The 6CG7/6FQ7 is the 9pin version of the 6SN7.
   
  All you need is a 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter.
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> How are those Osram's?


 
   
  Very nice.


----------



## joyway

Hi,I'm wondering if the blanced output of Super 7 can catch up with the ZDSE when I want to drive the LCD2 and Hd800. Thank you.


----------



## GrindingThud

Mouse ears on the way! 



silent one said:


> Adapters for which particular tube(s)?


----------



## setamp

I just tried a NU 6F8G in my ECBA and am loving it.  With Royal Princess 300b's and Genelex rectifiers I am getting holographic soundstaging and excellent tone.


----------



## MrEleventy

I found it at one point but I can't seem to find out anymore, someone had a post that listed the characteristics of some common brand s of tube, does any one know each from the top of their heads? from my short research, ts and Sylvania are bright and rcas are dark. looking for something to pair with dt880s, so forward mids are a plus. thx


----------



## Xcalibur255

I would not rule out tubes based on such broad generalizations.  I love Sylvania tubes with my DT880s, they do not add to the treble presence bump at all but rather bring up the range below it just a hint giving vocals fantastic clarity.


----------



## MrEleventy

I'm not ruling out, but rather focusing in on an area to start, what to expect and look for, etc. So far, my experience in 6sn7s is the darkvoice stock and 4 gtbs that I got off eBay in a lot auction for cheap. I feel that I got some nice 6as7s so looking to find a good pairing.


----------



## Neogeo333

Quote: 





setamp said:


> I just tried a NU 6F8G in my ECBA and am loving it.  With Royal Princess 300b's and Genelex rectifiers I am getting holographic soundstaging and excellent tone.


 

 The one with the clear glass and round plate?  How is the sound?  any similarity to the TS round plate?


----------



## rosgr63

It's one of Craig's favourites driver.
   
  George I recommend the Raytheon 6F8G round plates too.
  There are more than one type of TS round plates in the 6F8G bottle, I have posted photos earlier on.


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks Stavros, I have a Ken Rad with same construction but haven't seen a Raytheon yet.  Do they sound the same?


----------



## rosgr63

The Raytheon sounds the best in one of my systems.
  It doesn't sound like the others, it has it's own character.
   
  But of course a lot depends on preferences and synergy.


----------



## setamp

The NU is the 1st 6F8G I have tried so I am unable to compare it to others.  I find the NU to be well balance tonally with outstanding midrange.  I am a bit surprised at the difference the rectifiers make in the ECBA.  I can hear a bigger difference in the 6X4 than in many of the 6SN7's I have rolled.


----------



## carusoracer

Can anyone tell me the date code? for a Sylvani 6SN7W Black Plate Short bottle JAN CHS Green Lettering The top of the tube read 6SN7W G 6 Would that be one of the preferred JAN's? I still can't seem to find (1) reasonably priced Metal Base 6SN7W Sylvania


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





setamp said:


> The NU is the 1st 6F8G I have tried so I am unable to compare it to others.  I find the NU to be well balance tonally with outstanding midrange.  I am a bit surprised at the difference the rectifiers make in the ECBA.  I can hear a bigger difference in the 6X4 than in many of the 6SN7's I have rolled.


 
   
  Do you mean amongst different makes of 6X4, or by substituting different types of rectifiers?


----------



## setamp

Amongst various 6X4's


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Some people find some enjoyment in the visual appearance of the tubes.  It doesn't have to be only about the sound.
> 
> I'm a little tempted to ask what the point of your post was, or why you felt it necessary to be so candid with it, but this is the 6SN7 thread so I'm simply going to leave it at that.


 
  Well,EX,you were right..this tube gives off a really nice visual appearance..I stand corrected on my earlier remark.
  Just got delivery,an hour or so ?
  Going through some of music files now,and also have the Phillips 7316 mini watts in the 12au7 input..
   
  Right now,I am hearing a nice increase in SQ ,over the TS-5998..but ,not a night & day difference.
   
  Was it worth the outrageous price ,I paid...YES.....that's why I only bought..... ONE -LOL.


----------



## carusoracer

Can anyone describe the sound of the Osram? Just seems like it would be a nice 6SN7 variant tube.


----------



## eherdian

Hi,
   
  did anyone here ever compare Sylvania 6SN7 GT  2 holes with 3 holes ("bad boy") sound?
  I just curious is there any significant difference..
   
  thanks


----------



## teknikk7

Just got my Sophia Electric 6SN7 and they sound amazing. Nice deep punchy bass.


----------



## StalkerAssassin

eherdian said:


> Hi,
> 
> did anyone here ever compare Sylvania 6SN7 GT  2 holes with 3 holes ("bad boy") sound?
> I just curious is there any significant difference..
> ...



To my ears they sound identical.


----------



## eherdian

I read somewhere say's same as yours..no difference maybe the bad boy tube is too much hype to push sale price up...marketing strategy
  hey, thanks for your comment...
   
  right now I just start to collect several "famous" tube but just "famous" don't justify the sound quality (right to my taste and ears)..
  I have:
  >  GE 6SN7 GTB - many says this tube is nothing special but for me quite good for average tube
  >  Sylvania VT231 - I like the mid and hi sound,  as a driver on my 300B SE tube, this tube still has descent bass power and just enough bass for me (tight and quite tunefull)
  >  Ken Rad VT231 - on my amp, bit too much bass and sound bit mechanical, not musical enough but still I get "sweet" sound for female vocal
  >  Raytheon 6SN7 WGT - sounds "average" for me, I like GE better than this tube.
   
  regards


----------



## rosgr63

It could be marketing hype as the "bad boys" cost much more than the 2 hole versions.
  I much prefer the 6SN7W black base Sylvania.
   
  If you collect tubes, expect to pay high prices which have nothing to do with a better sound.
  The Neotron round plates are an example.


----------



## eherdian

Hi Rosgr63,
   
  Did you ever compare Syl 6SN7W with 6SN7GT chrome dome (full getter to the bottom)?  I heard that one have good sound..
   
  I never heard of neotron tube..how's the sound?


----------



## rosgr63

I have not done any ABX comparison between the chrome dome and the W.
  If I had to choose between the three it would be W, Chrome Dome, "Bad Boys".
  xcalibur likes the chrome dome a lot.
   
  Neotron seems to have a sterile presentation, not to my liking.
  To be fair I never burned them in more than a couple of hours.
  A NIB tube needs over 100 hours to check it out properly.
  I tried two different variants but was not that impressed.


----------



## Frank I

I have purchased some Tungsol round plates with the black paint. One pair is JAN.  I also just bought some Sylvania 6sn7 GT and I found some mint June 1945 6C8G for use with the adapters I had made. They are National union made for the Army and Navy in 6/45 brand new tubes. I am staring at them in boxes waiting for the Woo WA5.


----------



## eherdian

Rosgr63..
   
  sorry to ask again..
   
  how's sylvania compare to tung-sol? I mean tung-sol "mouse ear" and GTB D getter version?  and how's the sound between mouse and GTB?
  as far as I read this thread maybe I will like tung-sol because neutral sound and no congestion.
   
  I found on ebay the mouse ear but different brand.. 1 tung-sol 1 dummont, physically identical but is there any risk different sound production or else? 
   
  thanks


----------



## rosgr63

eherdian, there is no need to apologize.
   
  The GTB variants have a stronger bass presence to me.
   
  The Tung-Sol "Mouse Ears" are more neutral and a wonderful tube to have.
   
  They were all made by Tung-Sol as far as I know.
  Make sure they have the same type plates grey or black.
  They are prone to base cracks, which will affect the price but not the sound.
  Good Luck!


----------



## eherdian

thanks Rosgr63..
   
  I found this  http://www.ebay.com/itm/111089716323?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
   
  is it worth to try?  this is tung-sol similar to mouse ear without ear right?


----------



## rosgr63

From what I see two are testing close to new, and all look identical.
  They do sound like the mouse ears ones so they are worth trying.
  Good Luck.


----------



## eherdian

Rosgr63...
   
  I won the tubes....  can't wait to hear the sound


----------



## rosgr63

Well done eherdian!
   
  A very good price for a quad of nice tubes.
   
  Let us know how you like them.


----------



## carusoracer

I now have several different 6SN7 Tubes and can't quite say I'm over the top with any of them as each one seems to have nice attriubutes. Slight ranking in my system thru a deHavilland UltraVerve PreAmp. Sylvania JAN CHS short bottle black base 45' 6SN7W: Nice tube, great midrange and high end, outstanding soundstage and excellent detail. Slighty bass shy with above average impact. All around performer but with a compromise. Sylvania Red Label GTB: Strong Testing late 50's Tube with great dynamics and swing. Vocals are very sweet. Good soundstage, nice midrange, tuneful bass. Slightly better down low than the JAN. Excellent rich sound with horns. Lacks that final refinement and low level detail of the JAN. Shuguang Treasure CV181: Get down and dirty bass and prominent baritone vocal midrange. Nice soundstage but behind the Sylvania's. Top end sweet but just slightly rolled off and not as exciting. Lacks the detail, Sweet Brass sound Create Synergy: All around does everything nicely and does not highlight any spectrum. Downside is nothing is overly exciting but nice to hear. TungSol GTB: 60's blackplate. Too hi fi sounding in the top end and overly punchy artificial bass. Nice midrange but could not overcome the bass 60' Sylvania Chrome top: I'm not sure what it does well. Just too sparkly in an artificial way up top and overly warm with out detail in the midrange with wooly bass. Might be a bad tube


----------



## rosgr63

One of my favourite tubes is the 6SN7W short bottle black base with the lower mica inside the base.
   
  If you had to choose one which one would it be?


----------



## GrindingThud

I'm looking for a nice pair of adapters to get a 6SN7 in a 6GC7 socket (9 pin male to 8 pin female). Anyone have a good recommendation?


----------



## eherdian

@ carusoracer:  
   
  Seems you don't like the sound of sylvania chrome top, but I read somewhere in this thread the chrome top have quite good sound after sylvania 6SN7W..
  which chrome top is yours?  Do you have a picture of it? Because I'm planning to have 1 pair of those too.
   
  regards....
   
  Erik


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> I'm looking for a nice pair of adapters to get a 6SN7 in a 6GC7 socket (9 pin male to 8 pin female). Anyone have a good recommendation?


 
   
   
  I recommend you PM 2359glenn


----------



## setamp

My current fav in my ECBA is a NU 6F8G (adapter from 2359glenn).  It has wonderful mids with great air,space and clarity while maintaining unrivaled smoothness.  It is a bit soft in the bottom, however.  If only I could have it all..............


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





setamp said:


> NU 6F8G


 
   
  That's a lovely tube!


----------



## rosgr63

Indeed, I use a pair as output for my SP.
   
  BTW it's Craig's favourite driver for the ECBA.


----------



## dminches

I have 2 different pairs of NU 6F8Gs, neither of which have made their way into my DAC yet.  I will take some pictures and post them when I get a chance.
   
  I just found a quad of TS 6F8Gs, square mica.  I really like this version of that tube.


----------



## Skylab

Dave did you get an adapter to go from 6F8G to 6CG7 directly? Or are you using two adapters? I'd like to use some of my 6F8G's in "our" DAC but I'm concerned about stacking two adapters and a relatively big tube on a nine-pin miniature tube socket...


----------



## dminches

Glenn made me a 6F8G>6CG7 adapter so I am not stacking them.


----------



## Skylab

Nice. I need to have some like that made.


----------



## eherdian

Hi,
   
  just want to ask about this tube:
   

   
  I never saw GE tube like this... 
  or it is Sylvania?
   
  thanks


----------



## StalkerAssassin

eherdian said:


> Hi,
> 
> just want to ask about this tube:
> 
> ...



Hi, 
this tubes RAYTHEON 6SN7GT (1940') relabeled as GE.


----------



## eherdian

Hi thanks for the info StalkerAssasin,
   
  I found another one...Pinnacle 6SN7GT and have no idea who's the manufacturer..
   

   
  Sorry the picture is too small
   
  cheers,
  Erik


----------



## mikek200

I think they are an old Russian tube..many thought they were pretty good
  I found this:
   
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/135902-pinnacle-tubes.html


----------



## rosgr63

Pinnacle were a rebrander.
   
  They used tubes made my Mullard (ECC32 etc.) and others.
   
  To be able to tell if it's made in CCCP look at the getter, the flying saucer type usually is a give away.
   
  I cant tell from the photo.


----------



## Autobat

Hey guys,

I normally pick up used tubes as they are cheaper but recently grabbed some NOS RCA 6SN7 and I'm enjoying the sound so far. When one of the tubes is warming up, maybe the first 20 minutes, there is occasional static through one of the channels.

As mentions, the tube sounds fine when it's going, any ideas what it would be?


----------



## eherdian

ok then....confirmed it's Russian tubes
   
   
  thanks guys..


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





eherdian said:


> ok then....confirmed it's Russian tubes


 
   
  That Pinnacle 6SN7GT? I'd like to see a better photo.


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Pinnacle were a rebrander.
> 
> They used tubes made my Mullard (ECC32 etc.) and others.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Quote: 





eherdian said:


> ok then....confirmed it's Russian tubes
> 
> 
> thanks guys..


 
  Not sure that is accurate-see above reply from Rosgr63.
   
  Couldn't find a pic of the 6sn7gt,but did find these


----------



## Xcalibur255

That pinnacle 6sn7 looks like it has ladder plates to me. RCA would be a likely possibility, or maybe GE or Raytheon.


----------



## Skylab

That picture was kinda blurry, but those look like flat ladder plates to me, and that's not something that typically you see in the Russian 6H8C, which typically have more of a t-plate structure.

EDIT: looks like X and I agree on that


----------



## Oskari

That's what I thought I saw, too. But can't be sure based on that tiny photo.


----------



## rosgr63

Could be FIVRE or one of the other Italian makers but can't tell from the photo.
   
  From the plate structure I agree with Xcalibur, Rob and Oskari that it's not of CCCP origin.


----------



## setamp

So.......... How do 1578's sound relative to NU or Ken-Rad 6F8G's?


----------



## rosgr63

I don't like the 1578's but others do, they seem to have no mids only high and low end.
   
  If you decide to try them, make sure you get the proper ones with the perforated plates.


----------



## Oskari

The 1578 is unlike any other tube I've heard. It is incredibly open-sounding, which also means that it is too bright for my taste with most 6AS7Gs, but not so with the Svetlana. (The Svetlana 6N13S may sound flat if not suitably stimulated.) The 1578 could be useful in an otherwise dull system, or must be paired very carefully with the other tubes in the system. It is clearly not a universal solution. That's my experience in my amp. The NU 6F8G is a lively tube as well but in a very different way.


----------



## setamp

Thanks, all.   It does not sound like my cup of tea.  Especially given the price commanded by the genuine 1578's.


----------



## setamp

So far, I like best in my ECBA the Ken-Rad 6F8G followed by the NU of the same designation.  I am curious about the 6C8G as I could potentially benefit from the higher mu of this tube with my LCD2's.  Any thoughts/experience with 6C8G's relative to 6F8G's?


----------



## eherdian

I got the that Pinnacle 6SN7 GT pic from ebay...someone got it very cheap after bid ended...
  that the best pic I can get bit blury.
   
  I just got my Tung-Sol 6SN7GT from ebay, not the round plate version but the one that similar with Mouse Ear version but without the Ears..
  I run it today and the sounds very-very good even I like Tung-Sol's better than my Sylvania VT231.  The bass is deep and tight, mid still smooth and musical but sounds neutral and non euphonic at all, high still detailed and live.
  The Tung-Sol comes in 4 different brands - 1 Tung-Sol, 1 Greylook, 1 Motorolla, 1 Dummont but all the construction are identical and sounds identical.


----------



## rosgr63

setamp have you tried any ECC35's or some 6sl7 variants like the TS 6SU7GTY?
  I have not tried any 6C8G's yet, sorry.
   
  eherdian, well done they are very nice tubes at reasonable prices.


----------



## setamp

I have tried a Mulllard ecc35 and liked the dynamics but prefer the midrange magic and detail of the K-R 6f8g. The 6c8's are cheap enough that I'll give one a try.


----------



## rosgr63

I also like the Raytheon 6F8G.
   
  The ECC35 sound excellent to me.
  Saying that there are many variants a lot depends on which ones you tried.
   
  What about the ECC33?


----------



## setamp

The ecc35 i tried had a few miles on it - that certainly could make a difference as well.  I do have an ecc33.  I wasn't impressed the last time i tried it but i have made several system changes since then and it's worth going through my entire stash again.


----------



## dminches

The ECC35 is a wonderful tube.  I used 4 of them in my Cary phono pre.  I haven't found another 6SL7 variant that comes close.


----------



## rosgr63

The TS 6S7UGTY is not a bad tube either David.


----------



## dminches

I have about a dozen of them.  They are nice too, but the Mullard ECC35 is my fav, thanks to Rob!


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





dminches said:


> I have about a dozen of them.  They are nice too, but the Mullard ECC35 is my fav, thanks to Rob!


 
  David did you fins=d any tungsol black paint tubes yet they are my favorite 6sn7 so far but I have some long plates a coming as well as some Sylvania chrome tops. I want to score one pair of 5692 RCA buy they ar pricey. The black paint tungsol are ridiculous in price if you can find them. They are greatr tubes. I have one other pair but I am using the JAN 6sn7 black paint now in the WA5.


----------



## dminches

Frank, if you are referring to the black glass round plate variety I have a good number of pairs of them.  None of my tube components will take a 6SN7 instead of a 6SL7 or vice versa.


----------



## Frank I

so your using all 6SL7 tubes. I thought you were using the 6sn7 because you asked me about them the other day.


----------



## dminches

I use 6SL7s in my phono pre but I use 6SN7s in my DAC, Modwright Transporter and Modwright Oppo.  Everyone gets to play.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

If you want some 5692 without spending a fortune, look out for some brown base 5692s from CBS / Hytron. They look and sound identical to my 'reds' but at a fraction of the price.


----------



## rosgr63

The CBS/Hytron 5692 sound better than the RCA 5692 to me.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The CBS/Hytron 5692 sound better than the RCA 5692 to me.


 
  All 5692 were manufactured by RCA according to Brent Jesse recordings. They made them all according to Brent.


----------



## Skylab

Brent is a very knowledgable guy, but I don't agree with him at all on this point. I'm almost 100% positive the CBS/Hytron 5962's are in fact made by Hytron.

I also agree with Stavros that they sound better than the RCAs.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

and at a fraction of the cost


----------



## KingStyles

I like the hytrons 6sn7. Nice sounding tube.


----------



## GrindingThud

Mouse ears...what a great tube in the WA3. Dead silent, nice stage, smoooooth. I might like them better than A-Frames.


----------



## setamp

Does anyone want to split Gopher's pair of Synergy / Create 6SN7's with me?  I only wish to buy 1 to try.

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/670691/synergy-hifi-create-audio-6sn7-tubes-pair-price-reduced#post_9600521


 Update.  I bot one.  Gopher has 1 remaining if anyone cares.


----------



## SpudHarris

Just getting back into tubes after a long break. Bought an Icon HP8 as I had a stash of 6SN7's I thought I could use. My favourite tubes in my old WA6 were a pair of genuine Bad Boys but after putting them in the HP8 I'm noticing a noise from one tube which I never noticed before. It's an on/off kind of whooshing noise which does stop eventually but I'm a little worried it's on it's way out, any of you notice this sort of noise before?

In the HP8 the Bad Boys are great but are bettered by a pair of Sylvania tubes with yellow print (from the 50's I think). Anyone else own the HP8? If so what are your favourites?


----------



## Xcalibur255

In the WA6 one section of the 6SN7 is used as a driver stage and the other section as an output stage.  In the HP8 the tube is used exclusively as an output stage presumably by paralleling both section together.  Generally speaking the output stage is less sensitive to noisy tubes than the driver stage so it's odd that are hearing noise from them when you did not in the WA6.  I can only guess the noisy section was the section the WA6 was using on the output side and that maybe the HP8 is pushing the tube a little harder revealing an issue the WA6 did not.
   
  My BGRP Tung Sols have a rustling noise that was not existent back when I was using them in my WA6 as well.  It depends a lot on the amp circuit and how aggressively the tube is being biased.


----------



## SpudHarris

Thanks Xcalibur255, good to hear from you again


----------



## rosgr63

I use some noisy 6F8G drivers as outputs on the same amp and there is no noise issue, as they are run on a different operating point.
   
  As Xcalibur mentioned much depends on how the tube is run.


----------



## SpudHarris

I listened at length last night and the whooshing noise disappeared after a while so I will just ignore it for now? Will have to leave it to warm up for 1/2 hour or so before listening.

I got rid of my Black Glass Round Plate 6F8G's but am trying to score another pair.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





spudharris said:


> I listened at length last night and the whooshing noise disappeared after a while so I will just ignore it for now? Will have to leave it to warm up for 1/2 hour or so before listening.
> 
> I got rid of my Black Glass Round Plate 6F8G's but am trying to score another pair.


 
   
  In the event you come up short on the 6F8G version in a timely manner, I'm trying to show my VT-231/6SN7GT versions the door. Priced to move!


----------



## rosgr63

SO that's a sacrilege.........................


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> SO that's a sacrilege.........................


 
   
  I thought this day would never 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 come and we none too happy about this, either!


----------



## rosgr63

Better tubes will come you way, I am sure of it!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Better tubes will come you way, I am sure of it!


 
   
  Over the years, I'm sure you've come to terms with being an enabler. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm only learning about addiction now...


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks SO, you are very kind.
   
  Myself like you put people first.
   
  There's plenty tubes around.


----------



## SpudHarris

Threw these TSBGRP in the bin earlier in the week as I thought they had reached the end of their life :eek: they sounded just awful in the HP8 I had on demo, just assumed they were knackered. Got my new HP8 this morning and just to put my mind at rest I dug them out of my trash (chicken carcasses, rotting veg and various other crap). Cleaned them up and tried them and they are fine, better than fine!! Man I am so made up


----------



## Silent One

What an amazing recovery!


----------



## MrEleventy

Looks like one man's trash... Is the same man's treasure.


----------



## SpudHarris

Are there other makes of 68FG with round plates other than Tung-Sol or are they the same with different labels (National Union Hytron etc....?
   
  I've seen a few with round plates but not labelled Tung-Sol.


----------



## dminches

National Union made their own with round plates.


----------



## rosgr63

There are 3 types of round plates and as David mentioned NU made their own, which are also very good.


----------



## setamp

I like Ken-Rad 6f8g's followed by National Union.  They sound similar but the Ken-Rads through a larger soundstage in my Balancing Act.
 I am trying a 6c8g Ken-Rad this weekend to see if the increase in gain will affect dynamics.


----------



## SpudHarris

Thanks for your replies gents.
   
  How do the National Unions compare to the Tung-Sols? Better? Worse? Different?


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I have some round plate Raytheons


----------



## rosgr63

Me too but as Raytheon 6F8G and I like them.


----------



## dosley01

New 6SN7 addict here, I recently purchased a Rogue Audio 99 Magnum preamp which has 4 x 6SN7 along with 2 X 12AX7 and 2 X 12AU7s.  I also have their Eighty Eight power amp with 6550s, 12ax7s and 12au7s.  This has proven to be an "addicts" nightmare, 18 total tubes and 4 variants can become a little overwhelming.  I started my tube journey with a simple Bellari VP130 phono preamp with 1 12AX7, then to a Jolida JD9 with two ax7s and now to full on tube goodness with the Rogue gear.
   
  I've been working my way through the sections starting with the phono preamp as that's my only source for this system.  I think I have narrowed that down based on the inventory of tubes I have so I'm onto the gain and mu followers in the pre-amp.  I bought my 99 used and the previous owner had installed  some NOS Sylvania GTAs which based on the print condition and matching date codes, I believe that they probably were NOS.
   
  Knowing that most modern tube gear these days is shipping with Chinese tubes, I had picked up some Shuguang 6SN7s because I got them for about $5 each.  I wanted to hear a "worst case scenario"  in my preamp and go from there.  What a waste of money that was, they sound awful and are VERY microphonic.  They stayed in there for a whole of ten minutes.
   
  I'm looking for suggestions for something a little less neutral than the GTAs on the warm/romantic side but without breaking the bank.  I don't believe I need a matched quad, but at least two matched pairs.  I've read the 6SN7 guide here and also the comparison VTV did on the 6SN7s.  The Rogue is not a "tubey" sounding preamp per say so I'm looking to make it a little more "tubey"
   
  I'd like to stay in the $150 or less for a quad so my options seem pretty limited.  Maybe I should just stick with the GTAs and spend the money on replacing all the EH tubes in my 88 power amp????


----------



## rosgr63

I would recommend a quad of Hitachi 6SN7GTB's which are within your budget.
   
  I am not sure how they will behave in your system but maybe worth a try.
   
  Meantime lets wait for other contributions and suggestions.


----------



## Skylab

You might check the current head-if FS thread


----------



## rosgr63

Sorry I missed them Rob.
   
  These Raytheon 6SN7GTB tubes are great and very reasonably priced a worthy alternative IMHO.


----------



## Autobat

Quote: 





dosley01 said:


> I'd like to stay in the $150 or less for a quad so my options seem pretty limited.  Maybe I should just stick with the GTAs and spend the money on replacing all the EH tubes in my 88 power amp????


 
   
  I'm currently running a pair of Motorola Chrome Dome 6SN7s (re-branded Sylvania's) which are very pleasant to listen to.  I have a tendency to not enjoy bright sounding tubes/headphones/speakers due to the headache I get after a short period of time.
   
  They were on ebay for the bargin price of 20 bucks a pair. Not NOS but from my research (please correct me if im wrong) 6SN7 tubes dont run anywhere near their threshold so last a very long time so not worried about how long they will last.


----------



## Skylab

rosgr63 said:


> Sorry I missed them Rob.
> 
> These Raytheon 6SN7GTB tubes are great and very reasonably priced a worthy alternative IMHO.




No worries my friend, I was replying to the gentleman making the inquiry


----------



## dminches

O/T (but all the tube experts hang out here!)

Can someone tell me about 6H30s? What are the premium versions of these and are there any direct substitutes?


----------



## rosgr63

9 pin tube, here are the data sheets:
  http://www.tubes.ru/techinfo/HiFiAudio/6n30.html
   
  I use them in one of my amps the DR variant is supposed to be the best.


----------



## dminches

Are there several manufactures of the DR variety or are they all Soviet?


----------



## rosgr63

From what I know Soviet, David check this thread for more info:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide


----------



## setamp

I am really enjoying the Create Synergy 6SN7.  So far my favorite has been the Ken-Rad 6f8g for it's amazing midrange.  It's weakness is a soft bass.  The Create does not have the magic in the midrange but it is good.  Very clean and very quiet.  Dynamics are excellent and bass is great.  I need more time with this tube but it is a keeper and will probably be #2 or #1 in my estimation.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Are there several manufactures of the DR variety or are they all Soviet?


 
  The 6H30 started being used by BAT Balanced audi technology in their integrated and preamps. Victor At BAT  labeled it the super tube. All were manufactured inRussia by New Sensor and not current production any longer. Sovtek labels.  I used them in the Little Dot Mk 1 and really liked the tube. Great tubes . Here is a link to some of the history from when Victor started using the Recognizing 6H30 - 6N30 tubes - ACA


----------



## dminches

Frank, thanks for the link. That was a very educational article.


----------



## Frank I

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Frank, thanks for the link. That was a very educational article.


 
  Glad you enjoyed it. Its a very nice tube and sounds excellent. If you can use them give them a spin


----------



## mikek200

maybe someone good help here:???

I have the Taboo II,and I would like to get the Raytheon VT-231' ,,,,6SN7 ,but,it will not work on my taboo.
Can anyone recommend a tube that will come close to the VT-231???????,for the TabooII...


----------



## rosgr63

Do you have an adapter that makes the 6SN7 suitable/safe to use with your Taboo II?


----------



## mikek200

no,
Do you know which adapter I need ?.....?..

Tnx
Mike


----------



## rosgr63

Which tube do you want to substitute with a 6SN7?


----------



## dminches

It would have to be a 12a?7. The other tubes are EL84s and a rectifier.


----------



## Skylab

Can't really use a 6SN7 even with an adapter in the Taboo I don't believe. 

Why not look for a black-plate Raytheon 12AU7A? Those are nice tubes.


----------



## dosley01

Thanks to all who offered some 6SN7 suggestions , I ended up deciding to stick with my Sylvania GTAs and work on the input and driver tubes in my amp instead.  It has four Electro Harmonix 12AU7s in the driver section and some generic Rogue Audio 12AX7s in the input section so I picked up a quad of 1963 Sylvania Long Gray Plate 12AU7s and some 1959 NOS Sylvania JHS 12AX7s.  I spent allot of time rolling tubes in the phono section of my preamp and ended up with Sylvania 5751s and JHS-5814A so I guess I like the Sylvania sound and might as well stick with it. 
   
  I did almost snag a quad of boxed NOS Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base but they went FAST at $125.  I guess if you snooze you lose!


----------



## mikek200

The Raytheon is a rectifier tube..its the VT-231
  Been reading a lot of good things about this tube,lately
   
  I'm running with a Raytheon 5751 windmill getter now,in the signal  slot
  Skylab---think I will hear a big difference between the 5751 Raytheon windmill getter ,I have vs raytheon 12au7a ?
   Rectifier is the EML- 5AUG ,along with a few others.
  Outputs are EL84
   
  Headphones -HD800
   
  Thanks guys ,for all the suggestions
  Guess I'll stay put,with what I have
   
  Tnx,
  Mike


----------



## Skylab

VT-231 is NOT a rectifier tube. It's a 6SN7 which is a 6V dual triode, not a 5V rectifier like the 5U4G.

If the Taboo can use a 12AX7 instead of a 12AU7 then the windmill getter Raytheon is one of the very best.


----------



## dminches

I believe the taboo can use any one if the 12a[tux]7 tubes.


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





skylab said:


> VT-231 is NOT a rectifier tube. It's a 6SN7 which is a 6V dual triode, not a 5V rectifier like the 5U4G.
> 
> If the Taboo can use a 12AX7 instead of a 12AU7 then the windmill getter Raytheon is one of the very best.


 
  Thanks for the correction...
  Yes,it use all the 12a... tubes
  The windmill getter,was not an inexpensive tube , either...it was recommended to me by Nick Dangerous,like you ,another tube expert.
   
  Tnx
  Mike


----------



## SpudHarris

Are Ken Rad VT-231's different to Ken rad 6SN7's?
   
  This is what I bought yesterday but think they are marked 6SN7. 
   










   
  Sorry for tiny pictures. Bigger ones here if you need to look to identify.


----------



## dminches

I assume the VT-231s are the military version so the answer would be yes, they are different.


----------



## rosgr63

Like David said the VT designations were for military use and usually were made more robust than the ordinary versions, maybe with extra support rods etc.
   
  However there were also military tubes with civilian markings.
  You can only tell by carefully looking at them.


----------



## Xcalibur255

If they have staggered plates they are the same. If the plates are parallel then it is a newer version that came after GE took over kenrad. General consensus is this type does not sound as good.


----------



## SpudHarris

This is the top view. Are these the good ones?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Yep. Those are good tubes. You can see the position of the plates by looking at the grid posts.


----------



## SpudHarris

That's great news, thanks as always...... they will be here Saturday so looking forward to an extended listening session.

Cheers - Nigel


----------



## Xcalibur255

Check them for microphonics, the kenrads are notorious for being noisy.


----------



## doco

just recently bought a brown base tung-sol jan 6SN7WGT in excellect / strong condition. seems the WGT version is rare to come by on ebay as dictated by this post. there are some WGTA there and here. anyone have knowledge of the sound differences between them?


----------



## rosgr63

The WGT are the better tube for me.
   
  Gold Label
   

   
  Here is the 50's version

   
  Her's the Tung Sol version with the horse shoe getter


----------



## doco

your PM earlier helped me clear it up. thanks for the response.
   
  and i won a bidding what seems to be a NOS sylvania vt-231 for $20.15 shipped if his test scores are accurate. can't wait to hear the sylvania WTG, TS WTG, and sylvania vt-231. i slipped an auction on a almost NOS rca vt-231 grey glass. that was pretty stupid of me... i could have gotten it for $25 shipped. i was watching breaking bad and got caught up in it. grr


----------



## rosgr63

That's a very good price for a good RCA Grey Glass.
  Never mind better luck next time.


----------



## Len

Wow.  I've been gone for almost a decade and this thread is still going! O.o
   
  6SN7s are magical.  I think I should take a photo of my holy grail collection ^.^


----------



## Len

Ok, I do have a question having been away for so long.  What are some current 6SN7-based headphone amps?   I think I want to dip my feet back into headphone waters.  I've used a bunch of Singlepowers (read bout Mikhail's sordid end), Cary 300SEI, Wheatfields, and Berning but I doubt any of these besides the Cary are available anymore.


----------



## CEE TEE

^Hi Len, do post a pic of your holy grail collection...we love pics! Two 6SN7 tube amps immediately come to mind: Apex Peak (one 6SN7 at a time) & Eddie Current Super 7 (uses one 6SN7 driver and 6 output 6SN7 at the same time).


----------



## Len

Thanks Cee Tee.  I'll take a look at both.  I don't know if I can afford running seven 6SN7s for the EC 
   
  Here's a pic of my main NOS/NIB 6SN7 collection.  It's about 20% of my NOS 6SN7 collection, but the tubes in this case are honestly holy grails and took forever to assemble, especially in NIB condition.
   

   
  The tubes in this briefcase (from top left to bottom right):
  Neotron 6SN7GT round plates (France)
  Brimar CV1988/6SN7GTY
  Philips Miniwatt 6SN7GT
  Ken Rad VT-231 black glass
  Raytheon VT-231 "type 1" flat plates
  Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle
  Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle
  Sylvania 6SN7W metal base
  Sylvania VT-231
  Tung Sol VT-231 round plates (narrow box)
  CBS/Hytron JAN-CHY-5692
  RCA VT-231 (1943)
  National Union CNU-6SN7GT gray glass
  Sylvania CHS-6SN7WGT
  Hytron 6SN7GT (retail box)
  AWA Radiotron 6SN7GT (Australia)
  Raytheon 6SN7WGT (retail box)
  Sylvania 6SN7GT true 1952 Bad Boys (retail box)
  National Union 6SN7GT black glass (retail box)
  National Union 6SN7GT gray glass (retail box)
  RCA 5692 red base (retail box)
  *** not original box but mega rare *** Swedish Standard 33S30B NOS
  Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates (fat retail box)
  Tung Sol CTL-6SN7GT round plates (fat mil box)
  Marconi B65 gray glass metal base
  Mullard ECC32 (ok, not a 6SN7 but close)
  Telefunken 6SN7GTA (original tape-sealed boxes ... have opened others to confirm contents)


----------



## khaine1711

Quote: 





len said:


> Thanks Cee Tee.  I'll take a look at both.  I don't know if I can afford running seven 6SN7s for the EC
> 
> Here's a pic of my main NOS/NIB 6SN7 collection.  It's about 20% of my NOS 6SN7 collection, but the tubes in this case are honestly holy grails and took forever to assemble, especially in NIB condition.
> 
> *** not original box but mega rare **** Swedish Standard 33S30B NOS*


 
  Holy crap - that's the most expensive 6SN7.
   
  Wish one day I could afford to try those 33S30B or the 6SN7W metal base 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Also are there significant differences between the three Sylvania 6SN7W?


----------



## Silent One

Lovely, Len, just lovely!


----------



## Len

I've got four SS3S0 and to be honest, they're soooooo not worth their price.  They sound like a fuller body 5692 with a touch immediacy (not as laid back as the RCA or CBS).  But the price ... I wouldn't bother.  I got more of a kick finding generic "Standard brand" boxes for these Swede Standards than their sound.   But it's all subjective.
  
  There are minor but noticeable differences between all three Syl 6SNWs.  The metal base is brighter and more lively, but it's also more prone to microphony, which I think may be the primary reason for its brighter sound.  Both tall bottles have fuller bass than the short bottle but the short bottle is tighter sounding (for example, kick drums have excellent PRAT).  The short bottles are also a lot more reliable than the tall bottles   I've had so many metal base and tall bottles fail on me over the years.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Len, thanks for the photo, great collection!!!!!!!
   
  I feel, as I stated before in earlier posts, exactly the same as you about the 33S30A/B.
  They are a nicer sounding 5692 but highly overpriced.
  I have 2 NIB's and 4 in white boxes, but I could be as happy with my CBS Hytron 5692, I don't care for the RCA 5692 sound.
   
  I also agree with your assessment of the 6SN7W. The tall black base sounds very close to the metal base one, it's the same bottle in a different base.
  My favorite is the short bottle one where the lower mica is inside the base.
   
  As for amps I still run 3 SP's (safety checked) but I recommend if you are looking for a good sounding, reasonably priced OTL to check this thread:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio
   
  Glenn makes great sounding amps.


----------



## CEE TEE

Thanks for the pic and the list, Len!  I copied and archived that.  
   
  Would be fun to have everyone take that list and add their experiences to any of the tubes that they own...thank you!
   
  (Also, I'm dying to hear a Glenn amp...which one should I listen to with H800?)


----------



## Xcalibur255

Yep, that about covers it.  You could trade that suitcase for a new Kia probably.


----------



## rosgr63

Great idea CT!
   
  I would add some of the following if Len agrees of course:
   
  FIVRE
  SICTE
  ATES
  Tung-Sol Mouse Ears (Top Getter)
  ECC33
  ECC34
  ECC35
  QA2408
  B65 Clear Glass
   
  Neotron also come with a different construction, but none sound good to me. 
   
  One of his best OTL creations is the GR Super 10. (9 -6SN7 + 3DG4)
  As for HD800, sory I haven't got these headphones but David I think tried them in a NY mini meet with his Glenn OTL.


----------



## Len

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Great idea CT!
> 
> I would add some of the following if Len agrees of course:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ya, those are all definitely nice to have in any collection.  I've got the ECC33, 34, and 35.  I always wanted  NIB pair of QA2408 but couldn't find them, only a few singles that were mismatched.  Same with FIVRE and SICTE.  Most of the Euro 6SN7-kins are hard to find in the States. 
   
  There's also that strange flat plate square mica tube that looks like the Tung Sol VT-231.  I have a pair (not NIB though) but I still don't know who made them. 
   
  Where can I purchase Glenn's OTL?  That amp looks great.  Similar to the Wheatfield HA2 I had.


----------



## rosgr63

Len shoot Glenn a PM.
   
  You can discuss with him what you want.


----------



## kchew

I just wanted to pop in to thank Len for his great posts in the other 6SN7 threads. Thanks to the great advice I found, I've been feeding my Woo with great tubes like the Tung Sol BGRP, National Union black glass, Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle, Sylvania "Bad Boys", RCA grey glass, Raytheon flat plates, Brimar CV1988, Mullard ECC32 and Osram/Marconi B65. My collection still can't hold a candle to Len's awesome suitcase though!


----------



## khaine1711

Dear 6sn7 gurus, I need your wisdom 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 
   
  I'm currently using a pair of Tungsol BGRP and Sylvania Chrome top . I'm quite happy with them, but I want to expand the collection a bit since I have way too many ecc83 and not enough 6sn7s. Are any of these any good - as a good flavor change from the BGRP?
   
  CBS/Zenith
   

   
   
  Brimar (quite expensive)
   

   
  Sylvania bottom getter
   

   
  Tung-sol tall bottle?
   

   
  Raytheon
   

   
  Sylvania brown base?
   

   
  Sylvania VT-231?


----------



## Neogeo333

forget the fake Brimars.  Those are Russian made.  I personally like the CBS and the Raytheon.  I dont have enough listening time with the others but those two are pretty good to my ears.  Since your in the UK, have you tried any ECC32 or ECC33?  Similar to 6sn7 just make sure your amp can handle them.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I agree with Neogeo on both the Brimars (they're rebranded russian, not worth more than $10), and the recommendations.  Those CBS tubes are Hytrons, good tubes.  If your chrome top Sylvanias are the tall bottle with the heavy getter flash then you basically have the best of the Sylvanias in my opinion so I would concentrate on other brands.  The VT-231 Raytheons with the ladder plates and support rods are also really nice tubes.  I guess it comes down to what you want to spend in order to investigate the sound signature of other brands and construction types, because nothing on your list is going to top the BGRP Tung Sols which you already have for sound quality, so you know what the view is from the top of the hill already.


----------



## rosgr63

I agree with Neogeo and Xcalibur.
   
  The Raytheon are the best choice for me.
  Then come the Tung-Sol with the GTB style plates, which will give you a more pronounced low end.
   
  Try the RCA Grey Glass if you can, a tube worth having IMHO.
   
  As for the gurus, they are hiding in Tibet.
  As for wisdom, doesn't come with tube addiction I am afraid........


----------



## khaine1711

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> forget the fake Brimars.  Those are Russian made.  I personally like the CBS and the Raytheon.  I dont have enough listening time with the others but those two are pretty good to my ears.  Since your in the UK, have you tried any ECC32 or ECC33?  Similar to 6sn7 just make sure your amp can handle them.


 
  Too bad my amp can't handle those. Found some 6sn7 Mullard too (both normal and coke bottle) but they come in single only 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I agree with Neogeo on both the Brimars (they're rebranded russian, not worth more than $10), and the recommendations.  Those CBS tubes are Hytrons, good tubes.  If your chrome top Sylvanias are the tall bottle with the heavy getter flash then you basically have the best of the Sylvanias in my opinion so I would concentrate on other brands.  The VT-231 Raytheons with the ladder plates and support rods are also really nice tubes.  I guess it comes down to what you want to spend in order to investigate the sound signature of other brands and construction types, because nothing on your list is going to top the BGRP Tung Sols which you already have for sound quality, so you know what the view is from the top of the hill already.


 
   
  Hmm, the CBSs are actually the same as the famed Hytron black plate? Or are we talking different Hytron 6sn7 here? 
   

   
  My Sylvania is "normal"/short bottle me think. Got them from a yard sale - said 6sn7 gta on top
   

   
  Any idea on how the CBS 5692 brown base fits in the picture here? From what I've read in this thread they seems to be more laid back due to lower voltage or smt?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Found some 6sn7 Mullard too (both normal and coke bottle) but they come in single only


 
   
  No, you didn't. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/1155#post_7738178
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/1275#post_7846394
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/1290#post_7848914
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/1290#post_7849119


----------



## khaine1711

Quote: 





oskari said:


> No, you didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Thank the lord I've not spent money on those "normal" Mullard. As with anything named Mullard here, they commanded a high price.
   
  Checking back some email from the seller the coke bottle mullard turnout to be Ecc32, but he listed it with 6sn7 anyway


----------



## rosgr63

Some ECC32's have been wrongly marked as ECC33's too check the photos here:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts


----------



## khaine1711

Sorry to bring this up again but
  Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Hmm, are these CBS/Zenith actually the same as the famed Hytron black plate?
> 
> 
> And
> ...


 
   
  I think I'll jump the Raytheon, Tung-sol and maybe the CBS/Zenith (from the same seller actually). He only gives test result and doesn't guarantee anything so I'm a bit wary, but not much choice for 6sn7 in the UK or EU.


----------



## rosgr63

There are some great 6SN7's made in Europe, you need to research a bit more.
   
  As for guarantee what exactly are you looking for?


----------



## Xcalibur255

As far as I can see the CBS tubes in the photo are hytron. Two things to look for are the top mica having no "teeth" which press against the glass, and the etched logo on top of their tube with the circle drawn around it. The circle is pretty unique to hytron.

Since your Sylvania's are GTA tubes you could look into the vt231 Sylvania's or the gt tubes with the very heavy top gettrer flash. The w tubes are nice too but there's are half a dozen different kinds just within the Sylvania brand alone so it can be tough to choose.


----------



## rosgr63

The Zenith is also made by CBS/Hytron, the makers code confirms that.


----------



## khaine1711

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> There are some great 6SN7's made in Europe, you need to research a bit more.
> 
> As for guarantee what exactly are you looking for?


 
  Microphonic mostly, aside from not dead on arrival of course.
   
  Also regarding the CBS/Hytron/Zenith, the seller said the test results were
   


> [size=medium] *Tested on our old but trusty taylor 45C tester.*[/size]
> [size=medium] *                                            [New is 3.00 megohms]*[/size]
> 
> [size=medium] * #1  CBS Code  TC [No date code]                **    T1= 3.1     T2= 3.4*[/size]
> [size=medium] * #2  Zenith Date Code 5530 [1955 week 30]  **      T1= 2.7     T2= 2.2*[/size]


 
  I actually have no idea what these number means. How close to a matched pair are these?
   
  I'll get channel imbalanced if they're not matched, although I do not know how tightly matched a pair should be to avoid that.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The Zenith is also made by CBS/Hytron, the makers code confirms that.


 
  I meant to imply that but didn't, thanks for clarifying it.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Microphonic mostly, aside from not dead on arrival of course.
> 
> Also regarding the CBS/Hytron/Zenith, the seller said the test results were
> 
> ...


 

 I wonder if the seller is testing correctly, or using the correct values.  New Gm (transconductance) on a 6SN7GT is 2,600 uMHOS at 250 volts. Some tester will read this value and some will not, instead testing the emission and displaying it using an arbitrary scale.  Generally if you know the New and Minimum Good values for that specific tester then the test results have some meaning, but the strength of the tube is always secondary to whether or not the tube has been properly tested for shorts and leakage.  He might be confusing the emission/transconductance read out with the leakage test read out too.  The words "trusty old tester" also brings into question how many years it has been since that seller has had his tester calibrated.  An old tester which is out of calibration is no different than having no tester at all.
   
  You can find some good deals or rare finds on eBay but caveat emptor are the words that carry the day there.
   
  FWIW tube matching is pretty overrated, they would have to be pretty far apart to make a real difference.  Matching can mean different things too, emission, transconductance, plate current, these are all different ways a tube can be matched.  For a tube that is used as output the last of those three is probably the most important I think.  Also, most amps are self-bias and will make up for small differences between the two tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

The Taylor 45 is a British mutual conductance tester.
   
  The seller has used the wording at the bottom of the scale but his results are in mA/V and has two scales 0 to 3 mA/V and  0-15mA/V.
   
  It tests for shorts at 10MOhm which is excellent much better than Hickok at 0.25MOhm.
   
  Assuming it's accurate the first tube tests better than New and the sections are 10% apart.
  The second is 90% and 73% of a new tube, and the sections are 20% apart.
   
  The strongest section of the first tube is 35% more than the weakest section of the second tube.
  More than 10% variation is too much.
   
  In conclusion the 1st tube has sections within 10%, but the 2nd has sections 23% apart.
   
  The plate current is one of the best methods but that again says very little as it tests for one point on the curve.
  You have to have the full curves matching to be sure the tubes will match at the amp's operating conditions.
   
  Testing for microphonics is also amp dependent, unless the problem is severe a slightly microphonic tube can be used. Besides low microphonics are part of a tube's magic.
   
  Finally because a tube doesn't test new doesn't mean it's not good.
  Test values are a sales tool nothing more.


----------



## duncan1

As I posted on the -rebuilding an old tube amp thread. Mutual conductance=gm=mu times 1000 over Ra=ma/volt. The US uses the term trans conductance but gives the same resultant gain in micromhoms  which equals ma/volt. I have the Taylor 45c as well as an avo vcm Mk4 . The only things to watch are testing very high gain tubes which weren't reckoned with you might find it hard to zero the balance using the 2 controls[A+B] I inserted a small value variable resistance in series with the -A -control via a micro switch [to switch it off when not needed ] when trying for zero balance  with a high gain tube switch the resistor in  leaving it at mid point then using the control set it up as near as you can and finally use the small value pot. to finalize the adjustment. The one thing that goes wrong with them is the mains primary windings sometimes overheats and becomes  s/c  totally changing the tester into a paperweight. Transformers are hard to find.I also made several tube bases to plug into the IO-1- tube socket. But you need a commercial tube manual for checking which socket pin goes where. - A lot of time involved also using the book that  comes with it for the pin codes .


----------



## Rich887

good read on tube amp


----------



## rosgr63

Here's a pair of B65's for the brave hearted!
   
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/190893035496?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## Skylab

I have never been that brave


----------



## rosgr63

They don't even have Chelmer original boxes but bulk boxes.


----------



## dminches

The boxes are available in another auction for $300 each.


----------



## rosgr63

David, are they yours?
  You gave me a heart attack.
   
  Here they are:


----------



## dminches

No!

I wish they were.


----------



## doco

hey guys. my dark voice 336se finally came in and i turned it on. is it normal for 6as7 and 6sn7 tube glasses to turn dark grey from the bottom? i immediately turned it off after i noticed parts of the bottom glass was turning dark grey while listening to my music. i want to know if this is normal behavior for new tubes. these are the stock tubes that came with it.
   
  i also smelled what seemed to be like a faint burn smell when i put my nose close to the tubes. once again normal behavior for new tubes? should i expect the same for the vintage tubes i ordered off ebay?
   
  a picture of a better visual of what i'm talking about. the glass was crystal clear and after 4 minutes of turning on it started turning dark grey from the bottom up.


----------



## rosgr63

Are you referring to the shinny parts as shown?


----------



## doco

yes.


----------



## rosgr63

What you see is the getter.
   
  To me it looks nice and shiny the way it's supposed to be.
   
  I can't say about burn smells, sorry.
  Can you have the tubes checked on a tester?


----------



## doco

i don't have a tube tester laying around. im thinking that's how the stock tubes are supposed to be. i put in some other tubes and the glass doesn't turn dark grey.


----------



## SpudHarris

Forgot I kept these when I sold my WA6 a few years back. They sound really sweet in the HP-8....


----------



## khaine1711

Hmm I just grabbed these for 10 quids each pair- good deal?
   

   

   
  On an unrelated note, seller also had another pair of Raytheon, but he wants 4x the price for it - are they really that better?
   

   
   
  I think I saw lots of "Raytheon"  - some also have brown base like some Sylvanias instead of Black base. If I want a Raytheon in my collection - which would be the best to get?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Yup, you did good.  I have a pair of the ones in the bottom photos, very nice tubes.  What is the seller asking?  They command a fairly high price now if they are a good pair but I think people are overpaying for them personally.  The ladder plate Raytheons are the ones to have though, their T-plate tubes are nothing special.


----------



## khaine1711

40 Euro, but I didn't grab it - think they're gone now. Any picture of the ladder plate raytheon - is this it?
   

   
   
  We've established that the CBS and Hytron black T-plate are the same, how does the short bottle CBS fall into the picture - haven't seen anything written about them
   

   
  Also xcarlibur, have you tried the Ken-rad black glass in your Icon? I kinda want a pair but your previous comment on this thread scares me off (spotty treble) =p.


----------



## pne

Hi guys, I need some help identifying some tubes I found in the closet. They are marked as Sylvania 6SN7 GTB. Trying to clear out some of my old gear and I'm wondering what these are worth? Also have a bunch of these GE 6SN7GTB tubes. These all have about 150 hours on them, were included with my last tube amp.


----------



## Xcalibur255

khaine1711 said:


> 40 Euro, but I didn't grab it - think they're gone now. Any picture of the ladder plate raytheon - is this it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, that is what we mean by ladder plate.  The last two photos in your previous post also are ladder plate tubes.  The GTB CBS tubes in the last photo are rebranded GE tubes.  Nothing special, don't pay very much for them.  It's hard to tell in that particular photo but if they have the exposed filament wire on top then don't buy them at all those tubes don't sound very good.
  
 I only own the black glass KenRad as a single tube, not a pair so I can't check them in the Icon.  It sounds nice in my OTL.  They have a reputation for lacking air up top and being a little congested in the midrange, but I believe this depends upon how the tube is being biased in the amplifier circuit.  Both them and the black glass National Unions seem to change character more than normal depending upon what amp they are in from my experience.  FWIW the NUs are surprisingly nice in the Icon, not the best sound you can get by any means but it had really good synergy with the DT880s in terms of tone.


----------



## khaine1711

I think I can get Ken-rad black glass and Rca smoked glass (both 1940s nos). Not sure if they are worth it though - each pair costs as much as my BGRP.
  
 Really curious about the National Union too, which should I hunt? Are they the one where the dark glass only fill like 3/4 of the bottle from top? I think I also saw a grey glass version with construction really similar to the Rca grey glass with clear top - and a clear glass version.
  
 Did you ever try the Cv1988 or 5692 with the Icon btw?


----------



## Xcalibur255

The KenRads and VT-231 RCA Greyglass shouldn't be fetching BGRP Tung Sol prices in my honest opinion.  Both nice tubes but the Tung Sols are simply superior in imaging and resolution.  Nationa Unions with the grey glass are quite rare, they are lively and more lit up in the treble than the black glass version.  You can ask Stavros (rosgr63) for a bit more detailed opinion since he has heard them more than I have.  I feel the black glass NU is a charming tube in terms of tone but not that great performance wise.  It has rather sloppy bass control for example.  Using it as an output tube in the Icon seems to minimize it's flaws though.  If you have any phones that are bright or thin this would probably do the trick.  A typical black glass NU is black almost to the base with a clear hole in the top that allows you to see the top mica.  The newer tubes seemed to have their coating stop a little shorter revealing a bit more glass (or often the getter flash) near the base.  There are several minor variations but as far as I could ever tell they all sound the same as long as the grid posts are copper. 
  
 I don't like the RCA Greyglass much.  It has lots of fans but I'm not one of them.  The reason I like Sylvanias so much is because they can be romantic while still feeling transparent and not overtly colored.  The RCAs do sound overtly colored.  If this is your thing you'll love them, but when the timbres of instruments aren't being portrayed faithfully to me that is like turning the tint on your tv all the way to either the red or green side you just know it's wrong somehow.
  
 As for Brimar CV1988s..... I had a pair but sold them.  They're nice, sort of a more tweedy and less "heavy" version of lush than an RCA is with better midrange resolution.  I really lean to the Sylvania sound so these thicker sounding tubes got sold off from my collection recently.  I've never used any 5692 tubes personally, just a gut feeling that tells me they're overrated for the prices they go for. 
  
 As always just my personal take on it all, plus keep in mind my opinions are mostly from using these tubes as drivers.  I am finding for the most part my feelings on the tubes hold true using them as output, but there are some surprises like the National Unions.  I thought the VT-231 Raytheon ladder plate was quite exceptional in the Icon too.  I usually find this tube to be too dry in the midrange but it sounds excellent all around and very balanced in the Icon.


----------



## khaine1711

To be fair I think I got a bargain on my BGRP. I don't actually know their current market value except Brent listed them at .... $525 per pair.
  
 Do you think the RCA grey glass and Ken-rad are worth say ~$180 for each pair?
  
 I think I'll need to research more on the Sylvanias - main problem is there seems to be a dozen of them. What are the good ones aside from the mega-expensive 6SN7W metal base? Any "preferred" era when they're made?


----------



## Xcalibur255

They do go for those prices, particularly the Ken Rads, but if you are patient you can get them for less.  Especially if you look for equipment pulls or stuff that tests slightly below new for emission or white box/no box.  The collectors turn their noses up at this stuff but they'll give you the same sound and the same overall lifespan for less money.  Mismatched labels on the tubes is another way to save big bucks.  I got my VT-231 Raytheons for $23 because one of the two tubes didn't have the military markings on it and they weren't a "perfect" match for emission.  I see people listing these tubes for over $300 right now.
  
 As for Sylvania, they had more variations than any other maker for sure.  Lots of varied opinions on them too.  Up to the early 50's Sylvania didn't make a bad tube, just different flavors.  Even later vintage GTBs are nice tubes, but anything before the GTA era (basically 1953 or older, though there is some overlap on both ends) tends to be extremely good with a more refined and nuanced sound than the later tubes.  The Ws and brown bases are more lit up in the treble where as the bottom getter T-plate tubes (such as the "bad boys") are a bit more laid back.  You can get the 6SN7W sound without spending $500, you just have to find tubes made on that line that were packaged in regular OEM plastic bases.  They exist but you have to be very careful to pick them out.  The only trustworthy identifier I feel a person can go buy is the extremely heavy getter flash.  It will literally cover the glass almost down to the base.  I've seen these tubes with different types of bases, glass heights, and mica types but they are always "3-hole" T plates and they always sound amazing.  Since they look extremely similar to top getter GTA tubes they don't usually go for big bucks.  This is my personal favorite and the best bang for the buck Sylvania tube to grab IMO.
  
 Hope that helps some.


----------



## SpudHarris

Are these worth £140??
  
 I have some metal base ones that have similar gettering but these brown base ones have 3 holes.


----------



## Skylab

Great sounding tubes, for sure, a personal favorite of mine, but they an be had for less. That said, that's a very minty looking pair!!!!


----------



## khaine1711

spudharris said:


> Are these worth £140??
> 
> I have some metal base ones that have similar gettering but these brown base ones have 3 holes.


 
 Just a heads up, but there's a seller in Netherland selling several pairs of these for £60+. That particular pair for 140 seems to be from Ireland if I recall correctly.
  
 Also are those 6SN7WGTA in those picture the same as the Sylvania 6SN7WGT?


----------



## SpudHarris

khaine1711 said:


> Just a heads up, but there's a seller in Netherland selling several pairs of these for £60+. That particular pair for 140 seems to be from Ireland if I recall correctly.
> 
> Also are those 6SN7WGTA in those picture the same as the Sylvania 6SN7WGT?




Not sure if they are the same. I snapped them up because I already have a few variations with 2 holes.


----------



## Rob N

How many different brands/types of 6F8G's are there?


----------



## rosgr63

A lot actually.
  
 I have posted photos of the different plate types earlier on for reference.


----------



## rosgr63

rosgr63 said:


> Thanks.
> Yes they look the same.
> 
> So we have 5 types of 6F8G plates:
> ...


 
  
 Here they are


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Wow


----------



## rosgr63

Actually there may be more.
 These are the types I have identified from my own tubes.


----------



## SpudHarris

skylab said:


> Great sounding tubes, for sure, a personal favorite of mine, but they an be had for less. That said, that's a very minty looking pair!!!!




Came yesterday and agreed, they are fantastic sounding. I am so taken with them I have already ordered a pair of spares from 1952. I did get them a lot cheaper (£90)....


----------



## pne

pne said:


> Hi guys, I need some help identifying some tubes I found in the closet. They are marked as Sylvania 6SN7 GTB. Trying to clear out some of my old gear and I'm wondering what these are worth? Also have a bunch of these GE 6SN7GTB tubes. These all have about 150 hours on them, were included with my last tube amp.


 
  
  
  
 So nobody can help me with this? Guess I will just list them for free..


----------



## MDR30

setamp said:


> I like Ken-Rad 6f8g's followed by National Union.  They sound similar but the Ken-Rads through a larger soundstage in my Balancing Act.
> 
> I am trying a 6c8g Ken-Rad this weekend to see if the increase in gain will affect dynamics.



Any news on the 6C8G / Audeze combination?


----------



## rosgr63

pne said:


> So nobody can help me with this? Guess I will just list them for free..


 
  
 They have the GTB style plates with a strong low end.
 They are nice tubes.


----------



## Autobat

pne said:


> So nobody can help me with this? Guess I will just list them for free..




I have no idea how much they are worth, ill do some research and try and find a fair number to take them off your hands if you would like.


----------



## Xcalibur255

They are nice tubes but not very valuable because they are still very easy to find.


----------



## anasztasia

I just received a pair of tungsol rabbit's ears

  
 to replace

  
 that come with the amplifier (wa5le) and I must say listening with hd800 it seems a veil has been lift of. The sound is much more refined. I'm not sure if it's just me or my system but previously with sylvania I always felt my hd800 is a little muffled, not enough clarity. 
 Now I'm wondering if 6f8g can bring further improvement. I have NU and RCA, just waiting for the adapter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Oh not to mention that I just bought a pair of USAF-596 from a member here, alot to anticipate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 By the way how much do you guys reckon is a fair price for a pair of rabbit ears? I bought mine for $34 without shipping and about to pull the trigger for a second pair for back up, but the price has gone up a little.


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice tubes at a good price.
  
 If you can try the black plates version next.
  
 As for the 596, I think they are highly over rated at their current prices.
 The 5UG4 have the same plates and are much cheaper, a worthy alternative.


----------



## mrAdrian

Ahaha they are actually my two favourite in my humble collection - I liked the Sylvania best then the rabbit/mouse ears 
  
 The Sylvania always sounded more warm/lush/muddy/veiled/dark to me, while the rabbit or mouse ears sounded more solid-state-ish, so it could be more clear/refined.
  
 I think I bought it a bit cheaper than you, together with 5 other GE tubes and some other Sylvanias. They were all re-branded and used however.


----------



## khaine1711

Hmm do the black plate mouse ear and grey plate mouse ear sound the same? (i.e. worth having both?)
  
 I have one of those grey plate mouse ear on its way. Can't really seem to find a pair of the black plate mouse ear though - in fact I only know they exist today.


----------



## rosgr63

They do sound very similar, but if one is getting a backup, it might as well be that.
  
 They also come with different Tung-Sol markings on the base.
  
 Finally there is a rare version with the getter on top, above the ears.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The mouse ear is one of the very best for resolution and extension. Its always been an underrated tube.


----------



## Skylab

I think the value has stayed down partly because of the tendency of that tube's bases to crack.


----------



## anasztasia

Glad to see that what I feel matches you guys' assessment. It might also partly due to the fact that I'm using sophia princess 274a as I read somewhere previously it is also a little veiled, I'll see how it goes when 596s arrived. Tube rolling is fun ;p 

@skylab: albeit being a minus in the aesthetic department I think it is doing us a favor as it doesn't affect the sound and keeping the price down


----------



## torara

Hi,
  
 I'm quite new to 6SN7 and recently bought a pair of used Tungsol 6SN7GTB black pate with D getter.  After turned the tube on for about an hour I noticed one tube developing some sort of fog in side (bottom right).  Wondering if this fog could be a sign of this tube losing its vacuum?  But sound wise, even after the fog has developed, is great with good detail, dynamic and impact, much better than the RCA silver label bottom getter.    Would be great if any expert could help me out with the fog if this would be the sign of tube going bad? Or I can just keep running this since sound is still great?
  
 Given the sound, I definitely be hunting for more Tungsol GTB black plate and may also try the mouse ear ones too.
  
 Thanking all of you in advance...


----------



## Xcalibur255

If the getter (the silver patch at the top of the tube) turns white, then you have a problem and should stop using the tube.  It means you have lost vacuum. 
  
 That blotch on the side looks like some of the getter burned off and redeposited there which is nothing to worry about.  It just means it is doing its job more or less.


----------



## SpudHarris

I've struggled to score a backup pair of TSBGRP and am considering a pair of 6F8G instead. Can anyone comment on National Union Vs. Tung-Sol, both round plates.... I can get either but don't want both at the moment.

Advice appreciated as always, you guys are my gurus and have never steered me wrong yet


----------



## Neogeo333

watch out for the NU 6f8g, they might be round plates and have a wonderful sound, but my they are noisy as hell. warm up time takes a while and break in time takes longest of all 6f8g I've tried. the TS 6f8g are also great tubes but without the noise. the NU are microphonic as hell whike the TS are much quitter. That said once you have a great pair of NU that isn't noisy its signature its wonderful. trust me I have like 5 pairs I think and 4 of them are noisy.


----------



## rosgr63

I agree with Neogeo333.
 The NU 6F8G are great tubes if you get a nice pair.
 And so are the TS BGRP's.
  
 I am sure you'll be happy with either.


----------



## Neogeo333

Hey Stravos, those Raytheon 6f8g that you mentioned about, got a pair to try out and must say I like them somewhat better than the NU.
 Luckily they are quite and are very similar to the NU signature.  Thanks again for another great recommendation.


----------



## rosgr63

Pleased you like them George, they are one of my favorite 6F8G's.
  
 I have one noisy NU's out of my 6 pairs and I use them as output tubes.
 No issues in that duty.
  
 Have you tried your 6336's yet?


----------



## SpudHarris

My favourite tubes in the Icon are these.
  





  
 I thought I had bought a spare pair that look identical inside and out but noticed they are not the GTA version Doh!. Will they sound different do you think? They are both 3 hole/staple versions.


----------



## dosley01

spudharris said:


> I thought I had bought a spare pair that look identical inside and out but noticed they are not the GTA version Doh!. Will they sound different do you think? They are both 3 hole/staple versions.


 
  
 Wow, gotta love that price sticker.  $1.18 each?  I'll take 100 please!


----------



## rosgr63

I would be vey happy with them.
  
 Can you see a production date?


----------



## khaine1711

Hmm is it normal for the black glass to become more "transparent" over time?
  
 I got myself a pair of Brimar 6SN7GT Black glass. The glass looks quite different from each other but they got the same code - 3B8. Just that one tube glass is kinda "faded" - you can almost see all the way inside the tube - while the other is pitch black.
  
 Also do Brimar make these tube or are they rebranded?
  
 Tube 1 (can't see anything inside even when light directly shines in):
  

  
 Tube 2
  

  
 The plate looks like this


----------



## SpudHarris

rosgr63 said:


> I would be vey happy with them.
> 
> Can you see a production date?




Date code is stated as 220. I don't know but seller says 1952. I am happy knowing you would be happy with them.....


----------



## rosgr63

Week 20 of 1952.
 They are nice tubes worth having.
 Enjoy them.
  
 khaine1711, some the tubes have a lighter coating.
 I don't think it has anything to do with age, it's just the way they were made.
 Brimar made 6SN7 type tubes, judging from the top mica and the plates they look original to me.


----------



## Xcalibur255

No worries, they are real Brimars. A nice older version with the heat radiators on the grid posts too. I wouldn't worry about the difference in black coating, some were indeed darker than others. Looks like a nice pair of tubes.


----------



## MDR30

rosgr63 said:


> Week 20 of 1952.
> They are nice tubes worth having.
> Enjoy them.
> 
> 220, where's the difference of 1942 and 1962?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Haha, sorry Stavros I didn't see your reply. I didn't mean to sound like I'm parroting you.


----------



## rosgr63

No problem at all, nice to get a second opinion.


----------



## Neogeo333

Stravos, the my 6336 amp is still in Glenn's.  Hopefully I will have it soon.  As to the NU 6f8g have you seen different version of it?  I mean I have some that have a rounder mica and some have like a more rectangular ones.  Both plates are the same though.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi George, all my pairs are from the same source and have the same mica.
 When you have time could you please post a photo?
  
 Mine have the 4 spikes as in the photo.


----------



## Neogeo333

As you can see in the pics, there seems to be two kinds.  Most are the rectangular ones but I have two with round micas.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks George.
  
 I have never seen these before.
  
 Very nice collection, which are your favourite 6F8G's?
  
 BTW mine are VT-99's so I wonder if the military version had the square type micas.


----------



## Neogeo333

I notice that yours have the yellow thing that fades away with use. My favorite 6f8g still is the TS, specially the one with round mica. Also the BL63 but thats another topic.


----------



## MDR30

Don't have much experience of the 6SN7 tube, but it intrigues me that it can be used both as a driver and output tube in OTL designs.
  
 This one sounds pretty good to me in the output stage of my amp:
  

  


 '


----------



## rosgr63

Indeed, some amps use from two up to eight 6SN7's for output.
  
 You'll be pleasantly surprised if you try some US NOS 6SN7's.
 And you don't have to spend much.


----------



## Glam Bash

Has anyone here had experience with rebranded 6SN7s sounding inferior? I'm wondering if there's any truth to this, or if its ok to buy admiral, channel master, etc...


----------



## BIG POPPA

Subscribed


----------



## rosgr63

Hello Gil,
  
 Nice to have you on board!
  
 Rebranded tubes should not sound any different from the original ones.
 They are cheaper and sound as good.


----------



## W0lfd0g

Have been following this thread with interest.
  
 Based on comments made here (and during a senseless tube buying binge), bought RCA grey glass 6SN7GT in bulk.  White box - test NOS (I suspect they might be used, but can't be sure).  $25.00 each.  About 40 available. 
  
 I wouldn't normally post shamelessly like this, but I think it's a fair price and I need to recover my debt for my family.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

w0lfd0g said:


> Have been following this thread with interest.
> 
> Based on comments made here (and during a senseless tube buying binge), bought RCA grey glass 6SN7GT in bulk.  White box - test NOS (I suspect they might be used, but can't be sure).  $25.00 each.  About 40 available.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 ill buy a pair (the best pair 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
  
 ill need for incoming WA22. any other bulks u got?


----------



## W0lfd0g

No worries! 

First in line gets first choice!

I am located in Australia, so worldwide shipping will be about $25. Send me a PM if you are still interest.

I have a few other tubes in bulk (not many as I am by no means a "trader"), but they are E80CC and 12AU7.

Cheers and thanks

Nathan


----------



## Glam Bash

rosgr63 said:


> Rebranded tubes should not sound any different from the original ones.
> They are cheaper and sound as good.





Thanks for the info. Currently enjoying the heck out of an RCA vt231. I ordered some "Rad-tel" mouse ears on the cheap. The ken rad vt231 had awesome bass and soundstage, but is a little fatiguing on the apex.


----------



## rosgr63

The RCA VT-231 grey glass are one of the best. Let us know what you think of your Mouse Ears.


----------



## SpudHarris

I have just grabbed a pair of RCA Grey Glass for my expanding collection. Anyone used them in an Icon HP8? Mine are coming from Aus so might be a while getting to me


----------



## wilsonzxj

Hi, I have use some good 6sn7 like 5692red base brimar cv1988 kenrad vt231 black glass...., 6f8g tungsol and nu round plate, but I still perfer the sound of 6c8g tungol, kenrad, NU all round plate. Have been using 6c8g tube for nearly 2 years , any comment?


----------



## rosgr63

Welcome to Head-Fi.
  
 From the 5692 family the CBS/Hytron are the best sounding to me.
  
 The 6C8G are nice tubes for sure.
 It's down to personal preferences and system synergy.
 I have not tried them yet but many have and like them.


----------



## wilsonzxj

Bro I think you should try it when they are still cheap, i do have cbs 5692 before.


----------



## rosgr63

You are right.
  
 Another nice tube to get addicted to.
  
 Spec wise is the same like a 6SL7 right?


----------



## Skylab

6C8G is not exactly like either a 6SN7 or a 6SL7, electrically. Sort of in between, in most regards. Would likely work best in a design that allows either 6SN7 or 6SL7 to be used interchangeably.


----------



## wilsonzxj

I have many friend use 6c8g with great result. Should not have any worry using 6c8g in 6sn7


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Rob, I suppose as long as the plate voltage is under 250V, they should be fine.
  
 Not all 6SN7 amps can take a 6SL7.


----------



## wilsonzxj

That's lucky for me in term of budget and quality


----------



## rosgr63

A friend is selling a nice pair of ECC32's.
  
 If there is any interest please send me a PM.


----------



## rosgr63

Here's an interesting find: Neotron 6SL7 in sealed boxes


----------



## Skylab

Cool boxes, Stavros! Are you going to open them? :evil:


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob,
  
 I am very tempted.
 What would you do?
  
 This quad just arrived and has been put away.
 I couldn't muster the courage to brake the seal.


----------



## Skylab

I'm a seal buster, myself. I like to check stuff out thoroughly. I know it reduces resale value, but I want to know how they look, feel, and sound - even how they smell


----------



## Oskari

What kind of a question is that, Stavros? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 You need to see what's inside! We need to see what's inside!


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Oskari, nice to hear from you my friend.
  
 I am tempted about the Neotron lot.
  
 I have an open pair of the second lot but I need to test them first, here they are:
  
  
*EDIT: *These are from a different batch, the quad is intact.


----------



## Oskari

Quote:


rosgr63 said:


> I am tempted about the Neotron lot.


----------



## rosgr63

I just bought the Neotron today, hopefully I'll get them in a couple of weeks.
  
 That picture will be haunting me.
  
 What about a compromise?
  
 Open one and keep the other three sealed?


----------



## Oskari

One Neotron will do. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Assuming the 310s are like the two shown. But you don't know that, do you? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  
P.S. Don't listen to me.


----------



## dminches

Stavros, tubes are like wine.  They are meant to be opened and enjoyed.


----------



## rosgr63

You two are not my friends..........


----------



## Oskari




----------



## rosgr63

Wow what a lovely looking cat!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Oskari




----------



## rosgr63

How could I not be your friend?
  
 BTW my cat loves tube rolling!!!!!!!!
 She'll probably open the boxes before me............


----------



## Oskari

P.S. I believe that the primary reason for the existence of the internetz is cat photos. The secondary reason is tube photos.


----------



## GrindingThud




----------



## rosgr63

Oscar and his bad paw......


----------



## Oskari

rosgr63 said:


> Oscar and his bad paw......


 
  
 Oh noes! At least he's got a nice seat to rest.


----------



## Oskari

Grumpy cat is not happy. Better have a tube photo.


----------



## Neogeo333

GEC 6080 purple glowing?  That thing looks radioactive.
  
 Better get a lead plate to cover the privates.


----------



## LogicAudio

oskari said:


> Grumpy cat is not happy. Better have a tube photo.


 

 what's wrong with that 6080? why it's shining violet?! it there a LED or something under wraps or what?


----------



## Oskari

It's just the phone camera acting weird, guys. No need to worry.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is another interesting 6SN7 by RFT with ceramic spacers, not mica ones.


----------



## GrindingThud

Ooh, sexy tube. 


rosgr63 said:


> Here is another interesting 6SN7 by RFT with ceramic spacers, not mica ones.


----------



## rosgr63

Great minds think alike!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

rosgr63 said:


> Here is another interesting 6SN7 by RFT with ceramic spacers, not mica ones.


 
  
 looks cool!
  
 i know i had RFT EZ80 rectifiers on my WA2 and they where extremely good. so maybe the 6sn7 is good too.


----------



## rosgr63

This is a rare RWM made tube (VEB Röhrenwerk Mühlhausen).
  
 Sound wise they are a fine sounding tube the same as the RFT ones.


----------



## LogicAudio

we have lots of precision measurement tools in our workshop and we put every tube we got under a sequence of tests. 6SN7* is a nice tube but emits some white noise. it's good for hi fidelity use but not for Hi-end applications IMHO.
  
* we tested Sylvania Brown base 6SN7 and Raytheon and some W.Germany brands


----------



## magiccabbage

rosgr63 said:


> This is a rare RWM made tube (VEB Röhrenwerk Mühlhausen).
> 
> Sound wise they are a fine sounding tube the same as the RFT ones.


 
 I wanted to ask you what 6SN7's you like in your Glenn OTL? I will be using hd800 and t1 but mostly hd800. I will have the amp early next year but i wanna buy a few tubes and get ready. 
  
 Im thinking RCA 6AS7G to start with and 5998 for power tubes. Glenn will provide the 3DG4 rectifiers i just need to figure out what 6sn7's to get. 
  
 I am going to start reading through the Reference 6SN7 Thread now, I got your link from page 1 of this thread. 
  
 Thanks 
 Paddy


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Paddy,
  
 The 6SN7 Reference Thread is the best as it describes in detail almost all 6SN7's.
  
 The RCA 6AS7G are wonderful tubes but some people find them noisy, so buy a nice pair from a reputable seller.
 Be careful with the 5998's as they can arc over on start up, so have your headphones unplugged.
  
 Some of my favourite 6SN7's are:
  
 1.RCA Grey Glass
 2.Sylvania 6SN7W (mica base short bottle)
 3.Tung-Sol Mouse Ears (or similar construction)
 4.Hytron or CBS/Hytron or CBS
 5.FIVRE
 6.Hitachi 6SN7GTB
 7.Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT
  
 You don't have to spend a fortune, these tubes are reasonably priced.
 Best is to buy different ones and try.


----------



## magiccabbage

rosgr63 said:


> Hi Paddy,
> 
> The 6SN7 Reference Thread is the best as it describes in detail almost all 6SN7's.
> 
> ...


 
 thanks. Ill buy a few from that list. I use 5998 on WA2. I learned the hard way about arcing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Wont be making that mistake again.


----------



## rosgr63

Most welcome.
  
 Then when you had enough we can go onto the next list.
  
 There is no end.


----------



## SpudHarris

rosgr63 said:


> Hi Paddy,
> 
> The 6SN7 Reference Thread is the best as it describes in detail almost all 6SN7's.
> 
> ...




Not tried some of those, so food for thought..... However, I think that the Sylvania 6SN7W (mica base short bottle) is probably one of the most underrated tubes out there. I have bought a few spares as it is one of my favourites period. I seem to toggle between these and the very expensive Tung Sol black Glass and Ken Rad's. In fact, as I write I am listening to these in my HP8 via HD800's and loving them soooo much.


----------



## Neogeo333

Just because a tube cost many many times more doesn't mean squat. only if your a collector are those European 6sn7 and variants worth it. I learned the hard way, that's why I hunt mostly cheap and good 6sn7 now. Raytheon 6sn7wgt are great. the one with the black plates and short bottle.


----------



## rosgr63

Tube addiction and collection sometimes go hand in hand.
  
 I was keeping the Raytheon for the second list, wonderful tubes.
  
 However some of the nice European tubes do have something extra.
 They are not worth the 10X extra price though.
  
 I agree with SH, if I had to choose one tube only.


----------



## Neogeo333

the only two European 6sn7 (which are not true 6sn7) that i like are the VR102 and Ecc32 and ecc33 and ecc34 and ecc35 also black glass Brimars and B65 and B36. 

Stavros, does that make me an addict?


----------



## rosgr63

George I am sorry to say you are just as bad as me.........
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 I think you and me should refrain from posting........in case more follow the addiction.
  
 The tubes you mentioned are some of the very best, but don't name any prices in case we'll put people off.........
  
 I left the 6SL7 out for the minute.


----------



## Blackmore

Oh no, this is not addiction anymore, you already pass that. I stopped at ECC33 and B65,  simply because I can not use other variants. 
  
 Quote:


neogeo333 said:


> the only two European 6sn7 (which are not true 6sn7) that i like are the VR102 and Ecc32 and ecc33 and ecc34 and ecc35 also black glass Brimars and B65 and B36.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rosgr63

Good morning Blackmore.
  
 You can talk!!!!!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 My partner in addiction and tube mate???????
  
 How many hours, days, weeks, months, years have we spent researching tubes??????


----------



## rosgr63

Welcome to Head-Fi.
  
 Buying from a reputable seller is most important.
  
 Problem is some of the rare tubes are not readily available so one has to take  a risk.
 That's why is so important to use a reliable tester to check newly acquired tubes.


----------



## SpudHarris

It's true, you don't have to spend a fortune to get half decent tubes but I do believe that there is something very special about a few of the boutique tubes. I agree that some are extortionately priced but when these are becoming as rare as hens teeth I can kind of understand. 

I have spent a lot on nice tubes over the years but I have had some real bargains also. I once paid less than $90 for a pair of TSBGRP's from a guy clearing out his Dad's garage.

Which Raytheons are the ones to get? I've had a look on e-bay and there are a few variations.


----------



## rosgr63

When the eBay Gods fall asleep one can get lucky.
  
 I have most often overpaid than getting lucky.
  
 If you can go for the WGT variant like these:


----------



## SpudHarris

I have found a matched pair made in 1955. Black plate, square top getter. Are a nos pair worth $199 ?


----------



## Neogeo333

I got some used and some NOS of those Raytheon wgt for less than 25.00 each. 200.00 is kinda high. Maybe if they were TS round plate.


----------



## rosgr63

No, don't rush keep looking.
  
 Here's a 1579 tube with the CCCP Navy markings, never seen one like that before, only the USN Anchor.


----------



## SpudHarris

I'm not very patient I'm afraid......

Ordered these



Hope they are the ones to have. Date code for the pair is 280 5-25 (1955?). Listening with KEN RAD's tonight and enjoying them a lot with LCD3's, there is a definite synergy.


----------



## Neogeo333

Excellent Harris. remember to give some impressions when you listen to them. Your gonna like them a lot.


----------



## Mechans1

Hi guys I am a total 6SN7 nut case myself and  have been "collecting" them for about a decade now.  Unfortunately I went through a period of "more is better" collecting (hoarding) only to realize that I can only use a few at a time and should have been more interested in quality and perhaps some rarities.
 I have slowed down considerably of late and have only bought some CV181s and CV1988s.  I am using- dare I admit- a Singlepower Extreme right now, and have only recently started to use headphones on a regular basis.  I will try to keep current with this thread but not sure how to do that.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Welcome.
  
 I think the thread goes into your personal activity feed by default once you have posted to it.  So updates will show up on your main page.
  
 This thread is pretty quiet these days, sometimes some interesting pictures show up, be it cats or tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

mechans1 said:


> Hi guys I am a total 6SN7 nut case myself and  have been "collecting" them for about a decade now.  Unfortunately I went through a period of "more is better" collecting (hoarding) only to realize that I can only use a few at a time and should have been more interested in quality and perhaps some rarities.
> I have slowed down considerably of late and have only bought some CV181s and CV1988s.  I am using- dare I admit- a Singlepower Extreme right now, and have only recently started to use headphones on a regular basis.  I will try to keep current with this thread but not sure how to do that.


 
  
  
 Welcome to Head-Fi.
 I am sure you have some nice 6SN7's in your collection, but you'll need to identify them.
  
 I am also a SinglePower owner and I like them.
 Make sure your amp has been checked for safety.


----------



## Frank I

I just picked up nice Westinghouse 6sn7 that sound really  nice with the amps I been using them with so far.  I also ordered some more VT99 Sylvania and am looking for Tung sol round player shut hoping the Sylvania will be close as they are lot cheaper.


----------



## musicman59

I have some of those Sylvania Frank and they are nice. Close to the TSBGRP IMO.


----------



## Frank I

Good to know buddy. I was hoping they would be close.


----------



## Mechans1

The last couple of 6SN7 tubes I have bought include a couple which are not exactly 6SN7s.  I am referring to NOS ECC32s = CV181s made by Mullard from the 80s.  These are good looking tubes dark brown bases, smoke class and having ST shaped envelopes. The NOS  CV1988s I mentioned are also called 6SN7 GTY and are made by Brimar, black glass, brown base my tubes are from 1972.  The ECC 32s have more gain than regular 6SN7s making it a little bit difficult to fairly compare to the others.
 That said they are detailed very clean and richly toned.  The Brimars are very clear strong signaled and have detail equal to  the Mullards.
 I wish I knew how to post pictures from my Andriod phone.
 The other interesting 6SN7 I have collected recently are a quad of Marconi made in Italy.  They were  heavily used but still work welll ( I am uncertain of their emmsion or transconductance because I am waiting to get my tester back from repair.  If anyone wants to trade or just  a pair of these poorly labeled/marked Marconi tubes I would be happy to oblige.
 Can anyone tell me who I can send my Singlepower Extreme to for the safety issue?


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice tubes for sure!
 The ECC32's have great mids.
 They come with different bases, getters, grey or black plates, but they are good tubes, worth having.
  
 Don't run the ECC32's in the Extreme it may not be able to handle the higher heater current for long and could damage your transformer.
  
 I have a couple of recommendations depending  on your location.


----------



## SpudHarris

Here at last......









Liking them a lot so far.


----------



## Mechans1

That's good to know.  I had tried ECC32  in the Extreme and noted that the transformer and top plate were warmer than usual.  What tubes were you going to suggest?  I was pleased with the Brimar Black BTY and  Sylvania 6SN7Ws among others.
 My problem right now is trying to understand the output market.  It takes time (patience) and observation to know how much certain tubes will generally cost. After figuring the market for.. lets say... Tung Sol 5998s ..Only then  can I learn  if I prefer the resultant  sonics.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Ladder plate type Rays do indeed sound good in the Icon HP8.
  
 I have to say one of my biggest surprises tube rolling that amp was how good the National Union blackglass sounded in it.  Bass is a little flabby, but the tone and harmonics are a great match for the amp's character.
  
 I sort of regret selling my Brimars, I have a hunch they would have been a good match for the Icon as well.  Then again as little as I use the amp it doesn't matter much either way.


----------



## Currawong

I'm back in! I just purchased the ALO Audio Studio Six, so I have plenty to play with: 6SN7, 6V6, OB2 and 5AR4. 
  
 6V6s and OB2s are thankfully cheap.


----------



## magiccabbage

currawong said:


> I'm back in! I just purchased the ALO Audio Studio Six, so I have plenty to play with: 6SN7, 6V6, OB2 and 5AR4.
> 
> 6V6s and OB2s are thankfully cheap.


 
 Have you heard the DNA Stratus for comparisons?


----------



## Frank I

currawong said:


> I'm back in! I just purchased the ALO Audio Studio Six, so I have plenty to play with: 6SN7, 6V6, OB2 and 5AR4.
> 
> 6V6s and OB2s are thankfully cheap.


 
 Amos have you left the Stax camp now entirely?   Glad to see your back  with tube amps. The fun is in the rolling but once you get the right combo that ends. I am pretty stable with my WA5 selection now and I have lots of 6SN7 just using the tungsol 6F8G in their now but have other of those tubes as well.


----------



## Currawong

magiccabbage said:


> Have you heard the DNA Stratus for comparisons?


 
  
 No, unfortunately not. None have made their way out to Japan as far as I know.
  


frank i said:


> Amos have you left the Stax camp now entirely?   Glad to see your back  with tube amps. The fun is in the rolling but once you get the right combo that ends. I am pretty stable with my WA5 selection now and I have lots of 6SN7 just using the tungsol 6F8G in their now but have other of those tubes as well.


 
  
 So far, I'm going to stick with dynamics and get a pair of good near-field speakers instead.


----------



## Frank I

Amos what speaker are you considering near field. I am using the fritz Carbon 7 SE with my WA5. I love them and amazingly they are 88db and sound fantastic with the W5.


----------



## lojay

Hi I am new to this thread. I just bought a pair of Sylvania 6sn7w metal base tall bottles for my WA5. This is my first upgrade from stock tubes but I can say that there is a very noticeable improvement in the mids and highs from the stock GE drivers, with a lusher mid range, more natural sounding vocals, extended highs and soundstage. However, the bass is very lean compared to the GE or even in absolute terms and this bothers me.

Does anyone have the same experience or do you think my pair is defective? I note there is a 6 mA difference between the two Sylvanias so they are not perfectly matched. Thanks!


----------



## Skylab

Highly unlikely the tubes are defective. Defective tubes would make huge amounts of noise, or just do nothing. It sounds like you don't love the bass performance of the 6SN7W Metal base. You wouldn't be the first one who didn't


----------



## Neogeo333

Maybe he should try some Ken Rad black glass.   For the price of one 6sn7w  you can  buy two KR 6sn7 or maybe 3.


----------



## lojay

Thanks! The 6SN7W is really quite magical, I can see why it is highly sought after. Luckily I got mine at a bargain price  Can't wait to see if it has synergy with the 300B and 5U4Gs I'm going to buy.

Skylab, you are quite right my pair is absolutely quiet with the WA5. No microphonics or hum at all. However, it may be that my pair is past its prime. The readings on the label say "6.3/1.65, 5.5/1,80" on one and "6.8/1.95, 7.1/2.05" on the other, any idea how I could gauge whether my pair is good? 

Neo, I hope you are right, my Ken-rad is arriving on Monday..


----------



## Skylab

Those numbers don't mean anything without knowing what tube tester they are from and what that testers target numbers are for a 6SN7. 

But regardless, if the tube is quiet and sounds good otherwise, I don't think what you describe as a lack of bass weight is anything more than the way that tube sounds in the amp you are using it in.


----------



## rosgr63

lojay said:


> Thanks! The 6SN7W is really quite magical, I can see why it is highly sought after. Luckily I got mine at a bargain price
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 These values my guess is are from an AVO tester.
  
 For a new 6SN7 the values are:
 Ia (mA) 9
 mA/V    2.6
  
 So your weakest section is 61% of a new tube.
  
 This is low, but still useable of course.
 The test results never tell how a tube will sound.


----------



## Mechans1

Have to agree here.  You kind of shot for the top with a metal base W as your first roll.  If you want more bass try  some Ken Rad, the black glass look cool but aren't sonically better than their clear glass brothers.  Some swear by the military designated versions, but they all excel with bass extension and emphasis. I like the Ws midranginess and treble and am using one now in my headphone amp (Extreme).


----------



## lojay

rosgr63 said:


> These values my guess is are from an AVO tester.
> 
> For a new 6SN7 the values are:
> Ia (mA) 9
> ...


 
 Thanks, this is very helpful. The seller was quite honest when he said that the 6SN7W are used and are not strong. That's why I "shot for the top" with this one, it was selling at a discount. I guess the question is how much this affects the sound. I guess I will never know until I get my hands on a true NOS 6SN7W.


----------



## rosgr63

Any ideas what year are these Sylvania date codes?
  
 2ZR
 T3R


----------



## Oskari

Somebody should explain the various Sylvania date codes! It's about time.


----------



## rosgr63

Agreed, does the Tube Lore have any info?
  
 I left my copy home and I can't check.


----------



## Oskari

Actually it might if those tubes are from about 1939 to 1946! I must go now but it's on pp. 176 & 177.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Oskari, I was told they are 40's vintage.
  
 Have a nice day


----------



## Len

oskari said:


> Somebody should explain the various Sylvania date codes! It's about time.


 
 Sylvania codes are as follows:
 If you see six numbers (either in a row or in two pairs of three):  First three numbers will read 312, which is Sylvania's manufacturer code.  The next three numbers tell you the year and month.  The first digit of the three numbers is the last digit of the year.  The next two digits in this grouping represents the week of production.  A tube that reads "312 235" means it is manufactured by Sylvania in the 35th week of a year ending in 2 (1942, 1952, 1962, etc.).  Since Sylvania designs rarely lasted more than a decade, it's pretty easy to figure out what decade the tube was made.
  
 If you see only one letter and one digit, than the letter represents the month (A = Jan, B = Feb, etc.) and the digit represents the last digit of the year.  This was only done in the 1940s.  For example, a Sylvania 6SN7W with a top acid-etching code of A5 means it was made in January  of 1945.
  
 Sometimes you'll see a four digit code.  These are very simple to read.  A code that reads 5612 means 1956, 12th week.
  
 The last set of codes you might see is below the 6SN7 hexagonal acid etching.  It'll read as a letter, number, then letter (e.g. E2M).  The first letter is for the month and the following number is for the year.  The third letter is the manufacturing plant.
  
 Last note: A lot of Sylvanias will have two sets of codes, and oddly enough sometimes they don't match.  I tend to trust the acid codes because base silk-screening is sometimes put on later.


----------



## Len

rosgr63 said:


> Any ideas what year are these Sylvania date codes?
> 
> 2ZR
> T3R


 
  
 edit: From what I've read, the R stands for "replacement" (not OEM issue).  The other letters/numbers represents year, quarter, and production but I don't know how to read it.  My 6SN7 and tube interests kinda stop in the 1950s


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Len.
  
 Bendix use a similar system with the codes etched on the dome of the 6080WBs for example.
  
 The numeric part is easy but numbers like 235 for example are post 50's and start from 1952 not 1942 I think.


----------



## Oskari

len said:


> edit: From what I've read, the R stands for "replacement" (not OEM issue).  The other letters/numbers represents year, quarter, and production but I don't know how to read it.


 
  
 Yep.
  
 According to Tube Lore:
  
 N = Feb–Apr, Z = May–Jul, V = Aug–Oct, T = Nov–Jan.
  
 T*3*R = Nov 1942–Jan 194*3*, replacement.
  
 This type of code was used 1939–1946.


----------



## Oskari

len said:


> Sylvania codes are as follows:


 
  
 Thanks! Later on they had date codes with letters only, too.


----------



## rosgr63

That's even more fun............
  
 Nice work Oskari, thanks.


----------



## gibosi

7N7 tube ID request:
  
 It is my understanding that only Sylvania and National Union manufactured 7N7. And typically, it is easy to tell them apart -- Sylvania has clear glass and chrome top where as National Union has smoked glass.
  
 And this brings us to the tube on the left... shorter than the known National Union on the right, typical Sylvania style chrome top and gray smoked glass. Has anyone seen this tube before?


----------



## rosgr63

Yes indeed.
  
 A have a 7N7 selection and have used them briefly but I prefer the 6SN7.
 For your LD tube rolling don't forget the 6CG7/6FQ7 which are the 9pin versions of a 6SN7.
 It's a great thread, I enjoy it.
  
 Here are some of my 7N7 tubes:


----------



## gibosi

Thanks!
  
 The middle tube in the bottom row of your bottom picture sure looks to be the same tube. I guess if I can find some time to give it a listen, I should be able to determine if it is indeed an NU. (However, I just got a Tung-Sol RBP and I just can't get myself to take it out of the amp! lol) I was able to spend a decent amount of time with the small bottle Sylvania 7N7 and a 7AF7, and prefer the 7AF7. However, I wanted to try the Sylvania tall bottle 7N7 and the NU to see how they compare. And I also have a number of 6CG7/6FQ7 and felt the Tung Sol 6CG7 with three micas was quite good.
  
 Since my tricked-out Little Dot 1+ hybrid amp can roll a variety of double triodes such as 6DJ8, 12A-7, 396A, E80CC, as well as the 6SN7 / 6SL7 (and variants), I am having a right merry old time.


----------



## gibosi

Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boy
  
 I recently picked up this Sylvania Bad Boy, relabeled as an Admiral, and dated 1950, week 26. From what I have read, this seems to be too early? I haven't listened to it yet, other than for a couple minutes to ensure it wasn't dead or defective, so I can't say if it sounds the same as the classic 1952 bad boy.
  
 Has anyone else seen a 3-hole bad boy this early?


----------



## rosgr63

It looks like a genuine 3 hole bad boy for sure.
 I usually run new tubes for 1 hour before I put them away.
  
 BTW another tube you might want to try is the ECC40.
 I think it will perform well in the LD.


----------



## gibosi

This looks to be what people call a Sylvania "Chrome Dome": Black 3-hole T-plates and getter flash covering more than 3/4 of the bottle. However, "6SN7GTA", and not "6SN7GT" without the "A", is etched on the top of the bottle, and this contravenes what others have written....


----------



## rosgr63

It does.
 I personally like the GTA/GTB type too.
 For me this is a great find, a nice tube to have and enjoy.


----------



## rosgr63

Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Mechans1

I have read the same things about Bad Boys i.e. 1951-53 are the usual dates cited, however you can't argue  with construction. It is indeed a 3 hole/rivet Bad Boy.
 I have been in contact with Len of 6SN7 renown recently and will pose the question to him.


----------



## Neogeo333

Got these recently.  Very good tubes but somehow I dont like the vocals these tubes produces.  The bass is there and clean.  Good soundstage, but the vocals are a bit of a let down.  It sounds lifeless and thin.  Although instrument sounds pretty good.   These are NOS with 8 hours of burning before any listening.


----------



## Frank I

they have a stellar reputation. i been trying to find a pair of them reasonably but no luck. Like I need more tube sLOL. I have mostly tungsol tubes 6F8G and  6sn7 for my WA5


----------



## Neogeo333

I like the TS 6f8g much much better than these.  Specially the one with round mica.  One thing I noticed about the 5692 its how quite they are.  Some tubes tend to have little bit of noise let say some are more microphonic than others, these 5692 are among the quietest i"ve heard.


----------



## rosgr63

George the 5692 are very quiet with very little micro phonics.
  
 I don't like the RCA variant, I find the Hytron brown base much better.
 The Swedish Standard 33S30 is the king but at $700 no way unless one has some already.
 The SS were used in vessel's gun control systems, very robust.
  
 There is also GE 5692 black base ones.


----------



## Frank I

neogeo333 said:


> I like the TS 6f8g much much better than these.  Specially the one with round mica.  One thing I noticed about the 5692 its how quite they are.  Some tubes tend to have little bit of noise let say some are more microphonic than others, these 5692 are among the quietest i"ve heard.


 
 The 6F8G are a little microphonic but overall musical.  I also like the Sylvania VT99 which are similar in sound to the tS. I do not roll much anymore  but soone or later will get a pair of 6sn7WGT Brown base and a pair of 5692 just to have some.


----------



## Oskari

frank i said:


> they have a stellar reputation.


 
  
 ... of sounding like crap.


----------



## Oskari

neogeo333 said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


 
  
 They look nice, though.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

If you want to try the 5692 without reds prices look at the brown base CBS / Hytrons.


----------



## Skylab

LOL! I've never been a fan of the sound of the RCA 5692 either. I agree with Stavros, the CBS brown base 5692 sounds much, much better. I've never been lucky enough to hear the Swedes.


----------



## Blackmore

Read somewhere that very early 5692 production were good, but soon  they become average. I tried them ones, got from Stavros, but later, his advise to, bought GE 5692 Brown base and they are very good tubes and do not cost that much.


----------



## Neogeo333

Anyone know if the Raytheon and Hytron 5692 are the same?


----------



## gibosi

GE 6SN7GT
  
 According to the 6SN7 Identification Guide thread, the GE 6SN7GT was manufactured in Canada. However, it would appear that this tube was manufactured in the US. However, I have never seen a tube code resembling "43-L4" 
  
 Otherwise, black T-plates and nearly transparent rectangular micas, top and bottom, seem to fit the description. Does anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this tube?


----------



## gibosi

Oh... I just found this picture and the top mica is somewhat different looking......


----------



## Xcalibur255

gibosi said:


> GE 6SN7GT
> 
> According to the 6SN7 Identification Guide thread, the GE 6SN7GT was manufactured in Canada. However, it would appear that this tube was manufactured in the US. However, I have never seen a tube code resembling "43-L4"
> 
> Otherwise, black T-plates and nearly transparent rectangular micas, top and bottom, seem to fit the description. Does anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this tube?


 

 I believe they are Raytheons.


----------



## Skylab

The Canada made GE 6SN7WGT brown base are really nice tubes and often bargain priced.


----------



## gibosi

xcalibur255 said:


> I believe they are Raytheons.


 
  
 Thanks! After checking some listings on eBay, it certainly does look like an early T-plate Raytheon VT-231, and there seems to be not much love for this tube. However I purchased a lot of 5 tubes, including this GE/Raytheon, and three appear to be pretty good catches - Tung-Sol BG/RP, Sylvania VT-231 and a gray glass National Union, so nothing to complain about.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Don't buy too much into what you read before hearing them for yourself.  My favorite 6SN7 is not especially well liked around here.  Really it's good fortune if you take a liking to a tube most people don't care for, because then you don't have to spend as much to buy them.


----------



## gibosi

Thanks for the advice. I do try to maintain a very open mind as I am running these tubes in a Little Dot 1+, which is a hybrid amp (with a MUSES 02 opamp) designed around a pair of 6AK5 pentodes strapped as triodes. From the experience of a fellow LD1+ owner, I have learned that 6DJ8s sound somewhat different in the LD as compared to the Lyr, and similarly, I am quite sure that 6SN7s in the LD also sound somewhat different compared to a Darkvoice, or what have you. So while I do try to purchase well-regarded tubes when I can find them at a good price, I don't put much stock in claims that any particular tube is the "Holy Grail"... Different ears and different gear....
  
 My current reference tube is a Holland-made E80CC. Eventually, I hope to cobble together an adapter to enable me to run a pair of C3gs, but for now, that project is on the back burner, as I am simply having too much fun with the 6SN7s. So far, I am really liking how the early Sylvanias sound in my LD, but there are many others I have yet to try. 
  
 Skylab: Thanks for the tip regarding the Canada-made GE 6SN7WGT brown base. I will keep an eye out for one.


----------



## elmoe

After receiving a matched pair of Sophia Electric 6sn7 class A for use with my Singlepower MPX3, I thought I would say a few words here about them.
  
 Now I've had the MPX3 since about 07 and have tried a myriad of different tubes with it, but settled on a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT VT-231 'black top' as driver, and a pair of matched Sylvanias 6SN7GT VT-231 'bad boys' after many years of testing. I thought I had the sound I wanted down pat - until I received the Sophias.
  
 These (the Sophias) are by far the most detailled sounding 6SN7 tubes I've yet to hear. Soundstage is much airier than the Sylvanias to my surprise, instrument separation is absolutely fantastic, they are very neutral tubes compared to most I've tried. I'm still in the process of burning them in, but so far bass is tight and controlled, mids have excellent impact and the treble has great definition. I've tried switching back and forth with the Sylvanias, but I don't think I'll be going back to them. The Sophias are truly excellent in all aspects. I still use the Ken-Rad as driver.


----------



## punit

elmoe said:


> These (the Sophias) are by far the most detailled sounding 6SN7 tubes I've yet to hear. Soundstage is much airier than the Sylvanias to my surprise, instrument separation is absolutely fantastic, they are very neutral tubes compared to most I've tried. I'm still in the process of burning them in, but so far bass is tight and controlled, mids have excellent impact and the treble has great definition.


 
 +1. This mirrors my experience with the Sophia's on the Woo WA6 (in comparison to TS 6SN7, haven't tried the Sylvanias).


----------



## elmoe

Yes I also have a pair of matched TS 'mouse ears" 6SN7, Hytrons, RCAs, other Sylvanias (non VT-231), Electro Harmonix, etc... so far the Sophias are a big step up. I'm very happy with them, they were well worth the money.


----------



## rosgr63

I understand you are using the Sophias as output tubes.
  
 I have never tried them, I am using a pair of NU-VT99 oval plates as my outputs in my SP  PPX3-6SN7.
  
 It's all about what sounds best to you in your system according to your preferences.


----------



## elmoe

Of course! My system is pretty much built to be analytic and will probably sound "fast" and "thin" to alot of people who prefer the warmer, smoother sound signatures. There's a good reason I went with the Benchmark DAC-1 instead of for example a BelCanto, and why the headphones I'll always love more are the SA5k, SR325i, DT990... I've heard several systems throughout the years that were much much more expensive than mine, but I spent years and thousands to try and pick the gear that fit my listening preference and it's rare when another system, even much more expensive, sounds better to my ears.
  
 Different strokes for different folks as they say.


----------



## rosgr63

That's right.
  
 It's all about the music.
  
 BTW I too like how my SR325is sound from my OTL's.


----------



## spacequeen7

little gem (on the left) I found on ebay  10 bucks shipped ,(black plates /bottom D,1944)

 and purchased this also


----------



## Xcalibur255

GTB spec tubes didn't exist in 1944 I'm afraid, which is what is acid etched into the top of your tube.  It does look like an early GTB type, you have a bottom D getter with the medium height glass, so I'd say mid to late 50's.  Most Ray GTBs are shorties with either top or side getters.  I'll bet it's a nice sounding tube.


----------



## spacequeen7

xcalibur255 said:


> GTB spec tubes didn't exist in 1944 I'm afraid, which is what is acid etched into the top of your tube.  It does look like an early GTB type, you have a bottom D getter with the medium height glass, so I'd say mid to late 50's.  Most Ray GTBs are shorties with either top or side getters.  I'll bet it's a nice sounding tube.


 
 it's actually branded Crosley the Jap. Ray GTB next to here doesn't have as much bass  
  Date code: 4-52
 MFg code: 280


----------



## Frank I

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/02/tube-of-month-6sn7.html
  
 The  TS 6sn7GT


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the link.
  
 Thomas' comments are very wise.
  
 BTW the photo shows a Ken-Rad not a Tung-Sol.


----------



## doco

anyone happen to know how a tung sol 6sn7gt black glass square plate sounds? i've read some info there and here about the round vs oval, but nothing on how the square plate sounds.


----------



## Mechans1

I agree for emphasis and explanation .  The CKR was the Ken Rad abbreviation frequently found on military issue tubes.
 I know the regular readers of this thread know this, I am only pointing it out for the interested newcomer or casual tube audio person.


----------



## Neogeo333

Are these any good sound wise? They seem weird, with mouse ears and Sylvania looking structure and long chrome glass.


----------



## spacequeen7

doco said:


> anyone happen to know how a tung sol 6sn7gt black glass square plate sounds? i've read some info there and here about the round vs oval, but nothing on how the square plate sounds.


 
  
  


neogeo333 said:


> Are these any good sound wise? They seem weird, with mouse ears and Sylvania looking structure and long chrome glass.


 
  
 most of the 6SN7 impressions could be found here 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 P.S. you can also Google "*Tung*-*Sol Mouse Ears"-impressions *
  
*EDIT;here is one *
 http://digitalaudiodirections.blogspot.com/2012/06/6sn7-tube-comparison-part-2.html


> My first impression was to turn up the volume. But after I let it warm up things got a bit better. They soundstage is about average as is depth, but more-so than the Channel Master above, things are a bit more cloudy. Female vocals are extremely polite. Not rolled off so much in the upper ranges but rather more diffuse. Voices sound as if they were paintings viewed through a screen door. When reverb is used on the voice, it is heard as a lateral decay more than a deep one. This diffuse quality leads to less focus than some of the better tubes. Transient response is also quite soft. Deep bass is there and about average yet lacks the definition that one gets on the better tubes. Treble is average with no grit or sheen. This is a very polite tube that would be best matched with a system that tends toward being bright and perhaps warm at the same time.


----------



## Xcalibur255

They look like early versions of the "mouse ear" GT, probably late 40's just after the round plates stopped production.  Tall glass and top getter is very uncommon for this tube.  If the asking price is fair get them, they're great tubes.


----------



## Frank I

http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
  
  
 Brent Jesse has some really good information on his website regarding these tubes and many others. He also sells some but he is not inexpensive on his pricing but he a good resource.


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks everyone. I've seen plenty of mouse ears before but one with so much flash inside is not common. My guess they are Sylvania because of the amount of flash inside.


----------



## gibosi

neogeo333 said:


> Thanks everyone. I've seen plenty of mouse ears before but one with so much flash inside is not common. My guess they are Sylvania because of the amount of flash inside.


 
  
 The tube code: 322 236 suggests that these were indeed manufactured by Tung Sol (EIA code 322) in 1952, week 36. If they had been manufactured by Sylvania, then the EIA code would be 312. Of course, sometimes the EIA codes are not accurate, but to my knowledge, Sylvania never made a tube with mouse ears. So I would bet these are Tung Sol mouse ears with a rare top getter.


----------



## rosgr63

rosgr63 said:


> Talking about rare tubes, what about a Tung-Sol 6SN7 with Mouse Ears and top getter?


 
  
 That was posted back in April 2013 George.
  
  


xcalibur255 said:


> They look like early versions of the "mouse ear" GT, probably late 40's just after the round plates stopped production.  Tall glass and top getter is very uncommon for this tube.  If the asking price is fair get them, they're great tubes.


 
  
 That's right Tyrell we talked about them then
  


neogeo333 said:


> Thanks everyone. I've seen plenty of mouse ears before but one with so much flash inside is not common. My guess they are Sylvania because of the amount of flash inside.


 
  
 Unique but nothing special sound wise, they have the so called D foil type getter.
 I prefer the normal ones.


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks for the info Stavros.  Listening to them now.


----------



## doco

spacequeen7 said:


> most of the 6SN7 impressions could be found here
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
> 
> P.S. you can also Google "*Tung*-*Sol Mouse Ears"-impressions *
> ...


 
 the tung sol 6sn7gt black glass SQUARE PLATE is NOT the same as the mouse ears physically. they're different. i searched the 6sn7 thread before and only saw mentions of TS producing a BG square plate but nothing on how it sounded like compared to the round and oval.
  
 unless you were quoting neogeo333 for the TS mouse ears. you stacked our quotes on top of each other making it seem like you were replying to both of us with those answers.


----------



## spacequeen7

doco said:


> the tung sol 6sn7gt black glass SQUARE PLATE is NOT the same as the mouse ears physically. they're different. i searched the 6sn7 thread before and only saw mentions of TS producing a BG square plate but nothing on how it sounded like compared to the round and oval.


 
 ok ,sorry you didn't find what you were referring to 


>


----------



## doco

spacequeen7 said:


> there is link I posted under my reply ..scroll down buddy


 
  both of those links don't mention a TS black glass 6sn7gt square plate. the second one doesn't even review a black glass at all. the reference thread only mentions a round and oval plate. more specifically on how the round plate sounds. i've looked through it before.


----------



## rosgr63

neogeo333 said:


> Thanks for the info Stavros.  Listening to them now.


 
  
 Tell us what you think of them.
 If you find more please let me know I need a spare one for my collection, I only have one!!!!!!!


----------



## Neogeo333

rosgr63 said:


> Tell us what you think of them.
> If you find more please let me know I need a spare one for my collection, I only have one!!!!!!!


 
 You know that Glenn uses somewhat of tight sockets for him amp right?  All my tubes when inserting or pulling from Glenn's amp I need more force than other amp sockets.  Well the TS in my picture just slide in easily.  After 1 hour of use the right channel had noise and then no sound.  Tapped the tube and sound back again.  And the pins looked fairly new too.  
  
 Soundwise is good, lots of bass but not clean tight bass like the Raytheon 6sn7gt black plates with support rods which I had before switching them.  Other than that is a fairly good tube, definitely a collectors i mean addict tube because of the construction.  
  
 If i find more I will let you know.  Maybe we can trade it for some of your famous cookies?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi George,
  
 I hope they'll be fine, worth having for sure.
  
 Sure I'll be nice to L, so she can make some and try send them over before Glenn eats them all!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## setamp

Has anyone encountered a Western Electric 6SN7-GT ?  I have one with black glass and oval plates.  I am guessing it is made by Brimar or Mullard.  I will post a picture when I am able.


----------



## Oskari

Please do. (Not by Mullard if it's a 6SN7GT, that much is sure.)


----------



## Skylab

Even before the pictures...I will bet on Tung-Sol


----------



## rosgr63

I agree Rob.
  
 Tung-Sol made other tubes for WE so why not 6SN7?


----------



## Skylab

My thinking exactly, Stavros.


----------



## rosgr63

Rob, I expect some minor differences like the mica or springs at the top, or even a different getter.


----------



## Skylab

Yup, that makes sense...some differentiation. Looking forward to the picture!


----------



## spacequeen7

anyone familiar with this tube .any good ?


----------



## rosgr63

The Hytron is a great tube, 1951 vintage, black plates, one of my favourites.........


----------



## setamp

Western Electric pics


----------



## Oskari

Thanks! Any other markings on it?


----------



## setamp

No other markings.  There is a hole in the base outside of the ring of pins.  It is in line with the pin guide.


----------



## rosgr63

Very interesting tube.
 It looks like a Brimar.
  
 Here's one with clear glass, the plates look very similar


----------



## FunyunBreath

Hey all, new to this thread but I had a few questions. I've been buying 6sn7's for cheap on ebay and using them with an adapter in my Bottlehead Crack. They sound amazing, much better than the 12au7's and 12bh7's I've tried.
  
 However, of all the tubes I've bought almost all of the Sylvania and Raytheon GTA and GTB have a persistent low-end hum as soon as the tube warms up. Is this common for that model? I also have a few of the Tung-Sol Mouse Ear GT's and a Sylvania VT-231 (Bad Boy) and those are very low-noise.


----------



## Mechans1

It is a rare one. I have never even heard about such a tube, I will ask about it to my most 6SN7 saavy friend.


----------



## Oskari

setamp said:


> Western Electric pics


 
  
 Are you sure it's not Western Electronics?


----------



## setamp

Good catch!  It is in fact Western Electronics. I expected to read Western Electric and that is what I saw.


----------



## Blackmore

Looks alike Tungsram, but indeed, very rare, never seen any like this with WE print on it, great found.
  
 THX
  
  
  
 Quote:


setamp said:


> Western Electric pics


----------



## Mechans1

No low hum should  be present with either of those tubes.  It doesn't sound like you have the endemic micophonics  heard with many 6SN7s. I can't offer an explanation but did these tubes come from a guy who tested them thoroughly including self generated noise?  Congats on the Bad Boys what year are they, 3 hole plates I hope? ( should be on the base).
 Ebay  bottom fishing isn't always the best strategy.  I ended up with a number of substandard  tubes even paying good money for them.  When I finally sell off some of my bloated collection I will be sure to tell the buyer if they aren't up to snuff.  It can be fun trying these tubes out  on the cheap but be aware , they don't  always sound like the tube you are after.  I bought a few Tung Sol round plates that worked but didn't sound special in the least.  I then bought another pair that were fantastic, and were indeed quite speacail ( I will forgo the :audiophile descriptions. )


----------



## samtheman

xcalibur255 said:


> They do go for those prices, particularly the Ken Rads, but if you are patient you can get them for less.  Especially if you look for equipment pulls or stuff that tests slightly below new for emission or white box/no box.  The collectors turn their noses up at this stuff but they'll give you the same sound and the same overall lifespan for less money.  Mismatched labels on the tubes is another way to save big bucks.  I got my VT-231 Raytheons for $23 because one of the two tubes didn't have the military markings on it and they weren't a "perfect" match for emission.  I see people listing these tubes for over $300 right now.
> 
> As for Sylvania, they had more variations than any other maker for sure.  Lots of varied opinions on them too.  Up to the early 50's Sylvania didn't make a bad tube, just different flavors.  Even later vintage GTBs are nice tubes, but anything before the GTA era (basically 1953 or older, though there is some overlap on both ends) tends to be extremely good with a more refined and nuanced sound than the later tubes.  The Ws and brown bases are more lit up in the treble where as the bottom getter T-plate tubes (such as the "bad boys") are a bit more laid back.  You can get the 6SN7W sound without spending $500, you just have to find tubes made on that line that were packaged in regular OEM plastic bases.  They exist but you have to be very careful to pick them out.  The only trustworthy identifier I feel a person can go buy is the extremely heavy getter flash.  It will literally cover the glass almost down to the base.  I've seen these tubes with different types of bases, glass heights, and mica types but they are always "3-hole" T plates and they always sound amazing.  Since they look extremely similar to top getter GTA tubes they don't usually go for big bucks.  This is my personal favorite and the best bang for the buck Sylvania tube to grab IMO.
> 
> Hope that helps some.


 

 Hi Xcalibur255 - you have fired my imagination with your post. As a beginner in the field of 6sn7 tubes, would this be an example of a possible contender:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-USA-6SN7GTA-Black-Plate-Chrome-Top-Vacuum-Tube-6SN7-82-/151220951156?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2335789874
  
 I'm guessing the tube must be post 1953 due to the GTA in the name? As I said I'm very new to this


----------



## gibosi

funyunbreath said:


> Hey all, new to this thread but I had a few questions. I've been buying 6sn7's for cheap on ebay and using them with an adapter in my Bottlehead Crack. They sound amazing, much better than the 12au7's and 12bh7's I've tried.
> 
> However, of all the tubes I've bought almost all of the Sylvania and Raytheon GTA and GTB have a persistent low-end hum as soon as the tube warms up. Is this
> common for that model? I also have a few of the Tung-Sol Mouse Ear GT's and a Sylvania VT-231 (Bad Boy) and those are very low-noise.


 
  
 I find 6SN7s to be very quiet in my Little Dot, which I would think is a much stranger place for 6SN7 to find itself in. Do others who roll 6SN7s in the Bottlehead Crack report the same problem? I would wonder if your octal to 9-pin adapter might be flaky?


----------



## Len

Mechans invited me to take a look at this thread 
  
 Regarding the "Western Electric 6SN7GT," here's a short history lesson.  Western Electric, as we all know, is one of the great American tube manufacturers.  The interesting factoid that few people know is that WE opened up a low-key operation in the UK in the late 1800s, which was then bought out by th_e _International Telephone and Telegraph Company (ITT), which then became a company some you guys may recognize: Standard Telephone and Cables, AKA STC.  STC transitioned to various brand names - the one most people know is Brimar. 
  
 Looking at the tube, it looks like a classic UK tube (similar to Tungsram and Brimar).  WE probably continued to do limited business in Europe for decades so it's not surprising to see them rebrand a STC tube, whose heritage is Western Electric.


----------



## punit

funyunbreath said:


> Hey all, new to this thread but I had a few questions. I've been buying 6sn7's for cheap on ebay and using them with an adapter in my Bottlehead Crack. They sound amazing, much better than the 12au7's and 12bh7's I've tried.


 
 Which adapter are you using , can you provide a link please ?


----------



## Oskari

len said:


> Regarding the "Western Electric 6SN7GT,"


 
  
 This particular tube is a "Western Electronics 6SN7GT", though.
  
 Thanks for the history lesson. Here's a bit more:
  

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Standard_Telephones_and_Cables
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Brimar


----------



## FunyunBreath

gibosi said:


> I find 6SN7s to be very quiet in my Little Dot, which I would think is a much stranger place for 6SN7 to find itself in. Do others who roll 6SN7s in the Bottlehead Crack report the same problem? I would wonder if your octal to 9-pin adapter might be flaky?


 
  


punit said:


> Which adapter are you using , can you provide a link please ?


 
  
 It looks like the adapter isn't sold on Ebay anymore so I can't provide a link, but it's just a standard 6.3V octal to 9-pin adapter.
  
 I know some people have reported trouble with some of the 6.3V 9-pin to octal adapter, however I don't think the adapter is the culprit. I think it could be ruled out because my best 6SN7's (Tung Sols and Sylvania GT's) don't have any low end hum, or if they do it's so faint it can only be heard in a dead silent environment. The 6SN7's I have that hum loudly are all GTA or GTB Sylvania and Raytheons.
  
 I know Caucasian Blackplate over on the Bottlehead forum has said using DC for the 6.3V heater would most likely remove the hum. I just find it odd that some tubes have it and others don't.


----------



## Xcalibur255

samtheman said:


> Hi Xcalibur255 - you have fired my imagination with your post. As a beginner in the field of 6sn7 tubes, would this be an example of a possible contender:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-USA-6SN7GTA-Black-Plate-Chrome-Top-Vacuum-Tube-6SN7-82-/151220951156?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2335789874
> 
> I'm guessing the tube must be post 1953 due to the GTA in the name? As I said I'm very new to this


 
  
 I found one for you:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sylvania-6SN7-GT-Stereo-Tube-1953-Results-2820-2720-747821-/400662324158?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5d4955e3be
  
 It can be hard to tell the GT and GTA version of this tube apart.  The GTAs have a "clean" looking getter flash, where as the older GT has a dirty look with a white/brown haze that obscures the glass below the flashing itself.
  
 Remember I'm just one opinion.  Some people don't agree with me on this tube.  A lot of it will come down to which amp it is in.
  
 If you need a pair this is a very reputable seller:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Sylvania-6SN7GT-3-rivet-T-plate-1952-matching-date-pair-6SN7-6SN7GT-/281266345260?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item417cc7d52c


----------



## gibosi

funyunbreath said:


> I know some people have reported trouble with some of the 6.3V 9-pin to octal adapter, however I don't think the adapter is the culprit. I think it could be ruled out because my best 6SN7's (Tung Sols and Sylvania GT's) don't have any low end hum, or if they do it's so faint it can only be heard in a dead silent environment. The 6SN7's I have that hum loudly are all GTA or GTB Sylvania and Raytheons.
> 
> I know Caucasian Blackplate over on the Bottlehead forum has said using DC for the 6.3V heater would most likely remove the hum. I just find it odd that some tubes have it and others don't.


 
  
 Now that you mention it, I am using DC to run my heaters as well. Since the 6SN7 requires 600ma, which is more than the LD can provide, it was necessary to rig-up an external heater power supply. And since then, I have noticed that a few 6DJ8-type tubes that used to be somewhat noisy when connected to the LD's internal AC heaters are now significantly quieter as well. So I think it is just the case that the heaters in some tubes are more susceptible to stray RF than others.


----------



## samtheman

xcalibur255 said:


> I found one for you:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sylvania-6SN7-GT-Stereo-Tube-1953-Results-2820-2720-747821-/400662324158?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5d4955e3be
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you very much Xcalibur255, I went ahead and bought the other tube I linked to in the end after some advice from another member. I'm still waiting for all the parts to arrive for the GSN7 adapter I'm going to build for my Little Dot III , so until that's built, and I've heard the 2 tubes I have bought (6SN7GTA and a Tung Sol Mouse ears), I wont be buying any more tubes.
  
 Thank you very much - this really is an excellent and welcoming thread!


----------



## rosgr63

xcalibur is very helpful and his advise is always welcome.
 I have learned a lot from him and I still do.


----------



## FunyunBreath

gibosi said:


> Now that you mention it, I am using DC to run my heaters as well. Since the 6SN7 requires 600ma, which is more than the LD can provide, it was necessary to rig-up an external heater power supply. And since then, I have noticed that a few 6DJ8-type tubes that used to be somewhat noisy when connected to the LD's internal AC heaters are now significantly quieter as well. So I think it is just the case that the heaters in some tubes are more susceptible to stray RF than others.


 
  
 I wanna  pick your brain at the meet next week and get some ideas on how to add a DC adapter to the crack


----------



## Xcalibur255

samtheman said:


> Thank you very much Xcalibur255, I went ahead and bought the other tube I linked to in the end after some advice from another member. I'm still waiting for all the parts to arrive for the GSN7 adapter I'm going to build for my Little Dot III , so until that's built, and I've heard the 2 tubes I have bought (6SN7GTA and a Tung Sol Mouse ears), I wont be buying any more tubes.
> 
> Thank you very much - this really is an excellent and welcoming thread!


 

 The tube you linked looks like a shorty 6SN7W only it doesn't have the military stencil marking.  These are different all together from the tube I linked and made on a different line.  Also very nice sounding tubes, I believe rosgr63 likes these very much.  If you like a lot of sugar in your tone color you'll love it.


----------



## rosgr63

Indeed I do like my tea with honey!
  
 BTW a lot depends on the circuit design.
 I had 6SN7's which were noisy in one amp and quiet on another.
 Or in the same noisy as drivers but quiet as outputs.


----------



## spacequeen7

I'm new to 6SN7 family... just want to know if this is the tube mentioned here 


> Very good bandwidth, bass, detail and soundstage


 
  

  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/400659016697?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648


----------



## rosgr63

Welcome to the 6SN7 tubes.
  
 It's a nice tube with a strong low end, i am sure you'll like it.


----------



## spacequeen7

rosgr63 said:


> Welcome to the 6SN7 tubes.
> 
> It's a nice tube with a strong low end, i am sure you'll like it.


 
 I'm craving soundstage ,is that's the best 6SN7 I can get to address this ?


----------



## Xcalibur255

If size/width of stage is all you want, the Sylvanias do this best.  Particularly the metal base W's if you can afford them.  All of the Sylvanias with good reputations count this as a strength though. 
  
 If imaging/holography is also important there is really only one tube that does it all in my opinion:  the black glass round plate Tung Sol.  Most people would also mention the ECC32 here as well, assuming you can use it safely in your amp, but while it is a technically excellent sounding tube I never found it emotionally engaging in my setup which is just as important as the technicals.  This is why the Marconi B65 hangs out in my OTL a lot lately.  It isn't the best sounding tube from a technical standpoint, but it is the most emotionally pleasing one by far.
  
 The best way to find your own priorities is to just taste test some tubes and then go back to what others have written and see how your impressions are lining up.


----------



## spacequeen7

xcalibur255 said:


> If size/width of stage is all you want, the Sylvanias do this best.  Particularly the metal base W's if you can afford them.  All of the Sylvanias with good reputations count this as a strength though.
> 
> If imaging/holography is also important there is really only one tube that does it all in my opinion:  the black glass round plate Tung Sol.  Most people would also mention the ECC32 here as well, assuming you can use it safely in your amp, but while it is a technically excellent sounding tube I never found it emotionally engaging in my setup which is just as important as the technicals.  This is why the Marconi B65 hangs out in my OTL a lot lately.  It isn't the best sounding tube from a technical standpoint, but it is the most emotionally pleasing one by far.
> 
> The best way to find your own priorities is to just taste test some tubes and then go back to what others have written and see how your impressions are lining up.


 
 thank you Xcalibur255 for this helpful post ,... "black glass round plate Tung Sol" ..I have this one 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/261383185981?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
  
 but I really love this tube ..(can't get enough of this shorty-it's actually taller then TS)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/171218738831?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## samtheman

xcalibur255 said:


> The tube you linked looks like a shorty 6SN7W only it doesn't have the military stencil marking.  These are different all together from the tube I linked and made on a different line.  Also very nice sounding tubes, I believe rosgr63 likes these very much.  If you like a lot of sugar in your tone color you'll love it.


 
 Thanks for that Xcalibur255, when you say "sugar in your tone color" does that mean the sound is bright or is it sweet and warm?


----------



## Xcalibur255

samtheman said:


> Thanks for that Xcalibur255, when you say "sugar in your tone color" does that mean the sound is bright or is it sweet and warm?


 

 Sweet and warm.  I was trying to avoid using the word sweet actually.  I'm fond of that descriptor, but it can be interpereted in so many ways.  Some people use "warm" to describe what I call "bright"...... that's the trouble with describing sounds with words.


----------



## rosgr63

You can also get the 6SN7W tall glass in a mica base.
 Same as the metal base but much cheaper.
  
 The short ones come in different styles I like the one where the lower mica is inside the base.


----------



## Neogeo333

The 6sn7w is one of my favorites. Definitely a all arounder. Specially the metal base. If you see one with a cracked base dont worry, its pretty common among them. Of the 6 I have 3 of them has hairline cracks.


----------



## doco

i've been thinking about getting a 6F8G to 6sn7 adapter and buying some 6F8G tubes. there should be no problems since they're the same from what i've read, right? this is the adapter i plan to buy
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-gold-plated-6F8G-6C8G-TO-6SN7-tube-adapter-Free-shipping-/200905127802?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2ec6e0f77a


----------



## rosgr63

The 6F8G can be used with the adapter you have mentioned in a 6SN7 circuit without any problems.


----------



## samtheman

xcalibur255 said:


> Sweet and warm.  I was trying to avoid using the word sweet actually.  I'm fond of that descriptor, but it can be interpereted in so many ways.  Some people use "warm" to describe what I call "bright"...... that's the trouble with describing sounds with words.


 

 Thanks Xcalibur255.
  
 The tube I was wondering about arrived and looks like this:

  

  


  Does this mean it's one of your preferred Sylvania "GT" tubes?
  
 Either way, I cant wait to give it a listen! I'm just waiting on parts to arrive for my Little dot MKIII adapter


----------



## rosgr63

The one Xcalibur mentioned has a taller bottle and a shorter base.
  
 What you have though is a nice tube.


----------



## gibosi

I have two Sylvania 6SN7GTs and two GTAs. They are all the same size and with the exception of the 1949 GT, they all have the same 3-hole plates and bottom mica. Perhaps my old ears and modest gear do not permit me to hear differences that others do, but they all sound the same to me. So my conclusion is short base, tall base, 2-hole plates, 3-hole plates, all these late 1940's / early 1950's heavily chromed Sylvanias are virtually the same tube, and they are different than my short-bottle 6SN7W.
  
 GTs 1952 (left) and 1949 (right)
  
 The 1949 tube has 2-hole plates and bottom mica similar to the 6SN7W.
  

  
 Sylvania GTAs, both 1953


----------



## Xcalibur255

The number of variations Sylvania produced is absurd really.  There weren't any "clean" generations of designs in their tubes.
  
 I look for dirty looking getter flashes now, with the hazy look that extends all the way to the plastic base.  This is the type of flash the old W tubes have and all the Sylvanias that have this type of flashing sound a cut above the rest to my ears.  I'm not saying the flash itself has anything to do with the sound, but my guess is they were all made on the same line or have more or less the same internal makeup and grid.


----------



## Skylab

I'm not sure it's accurate to say there were not "clean" generations of design in Sylvania 6SN7's. They have many very commonly identifiable types. And remember Sylvania produced mass quantities of 6SN7's over a 40+ year period, which spanned the rise and fall of the vacuum tube as the primary amplification electrical device.


----------



## gibosi

A pair of FIVRE 6SN7GT. I got these for a pretty good price as they are not quite a "matched" pair. The tube on the right has a side getter and the tube on the left, a bottom getter, but otherwise, they appear identical. In a quick search on Google, I wasn't able to find much of anything to help me date these tubes. An obvious guess is that the "7" and "6" might represent the last digit of the year, so perhaps, the 1940's or 1950's, or even the1960's? Can someone tell me a bit more?


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tubes, the one on the right is a GTA style with side getter.
 I think they are 57 and 56 production.


----------



## Lorspeaker

gibosi said:


> A pair of FIVRE 6SN7GT. I got these for a pretty good price as they are not quite a "matched" pair. The tube on the right has a side getter and the tube on the left, a bottom getter, but otherwise, they appear identical. In a quick search on Google, I wasn't able to find much of anything to help me date these tubes. An obvious guess is that the "7" and "6" might represent the last digit of the year, so perhaps, the 1940's or 1950's, or even the1960's? Can someone tell me a bit more?


 
  
 love those old weathered orangey stickers....that alone is worth the price


----------



## gibosi

rosgr63 said:


> Nice tubes, the one on the right is a GTA style with side getter.
> I think they are 57 and 56 production.


 
  
 Thanks! 
  
 Interestingly, both tubes have 6SN7GT printed on the bottle. Did Fivre not label their GTA tubes "6SN7GTA"?


----------



## rosgr63

Here are a couple of my FIVRE both GTA type one marked GT the other GTA.
 I don't rely on the markings but the internal structure.


----------



## gibosi

rosgr63 said:


> Here are a couple of my FIVRE both GTA type one marked GT the other GTA.
> I don't rely on the markings but the internal structure.


 
  
 The only structural difference visible to the eye appears to be the position of the getters? In your opinion, do the GTs and GTAs sound different? Unfortunately, as I just got them, I haven't had a chance to thoroughly audition and compare these tubes yet....


----------



## rosgr63

In my systems and my worn out and well used ears they do.
  
 I find the GTA's (side getter) have a stronger bass.


----------



## gibosi

This is very good to know. Thanks!


----------



## spacequeen7

anyone familiar with Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z tube ??


----------



## tagosaku

I thought it was good. Not the same class with Syl W tall bottle, TS RP etc., but the best current production that I know of.


----------



## doco

YMMV with how well the shuguang will sound like in your tube amp. apparently this guy was impressed and bought a whole bunch for his amp


----------



## Lorspeaker

spacequeen7 said:


> anyone familiar with Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z tube ??




In case u are buying, there is a newer version in grey bottle instead of black?


----------



## punit

Anyone have experience with Psvane CV181 ?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Psvane-CV181-T-Mark-II-Vacuum-Tube-New-Premium-Grade-Treasure-Tube-/251170137281?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item3a7ae824c1


----------



## spacequeen7

^^ I think that's the one Lorspeaker was referring to ,they both sold by http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/Psvane
 EDIT ; Shuguang makes three ver. of tubes 
 ​Treasure,Standard and Natural


----------



## Lorspeaker

opps think i have one in my warchest....fired it up,
 sounds huge, spacious, easy on the ears. not brittle sounding, not too warmish mushy..good thumppp.  
 ( when it was new, there was this gritty sound, but it went off after about 100hours. now its silent. )
  
 just flipped thru a few genres...  hmmm... very Un-annoying. v enjoyable i must say 
  
 ( Just switched to a TungSol GTB...oooh myyy...every naunces dived down a notch...as if a veil settled over my setup...  )
  
 ( Slot in a Sylvania WGT, a livelier tube vs the TungSol..
 sounded it has more "steel" in its sound than the PsVane.. the drumhit are more taut..hi hats brighter.. quite expansive sounding too. )
  
 =============
  
 ohhh my...just put back the PSVANE...took out the Sylvania...no adjectives come to mind..cept to say that its so *LIFE LIKE*.


----------



## punit

lorspeaker said:


> opps think i have one in my warchest....fired it up,
> sounds huge, spacious, easy on the ears. not brittle sounding, not too warmish mushy..good thumppp.
> ( when it was new, there was this gritty sound, but it went off after about 100hours. now its silent. )
> 
> ...


 

 Hmm.. have added the PSvane to Ebay watchlist , will probably pick it up sometime by end of this month. Have you ever tried any 6F8G tubes in your DV ?


----------



## Lorspeaker

Not familiar with tat...so far jus stickg to 6sn7s.


----------



## SpudHarris

I've been using them for a while and have to say they are one of my favourites. In my top 5 for sure. They look stunning also.....


----------



## punit

spudharris said:


> I've been using them for a while and have to say they are one of my favourites. In my top 5 for sure. They look stunning also.....


 
 What amp is that ? & BTW Ultimae rules 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Edit -
 Got it - Icon Audio


----------



## SpudHarris

Listening area in my new house... The Icon powers the HE-6 easily and the Psvane II are a very, very nice tube even compared against some of the boutique vintage tubes. As far as current production goes, nothing comes close.


----------



## blubliss

Just purchased a single 6SN7 oval mica, round plate tube ($90 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) to go with another I had.  I noticed that one has a dimpled bottom disc getter and the other has a D bottom getter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Do you guys think these will sound significantly different?


----------



## Skylab

Can you post a picture of the "dimpled bottom disc getter"?


----------



## blubliss

Sure, I will do that tomorrow but it is pretty hard to see.


----------



## blubliss

dimpled getter


d getter


----------



## gibosi

blubliss said:


> I noticed that one has a dimpled bottom disc getter and the other has a D bottom getter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have one with round micas and disc getter and two with oval micas and D getter. My guess is that your tube is intermediate, with the older getter and the newer mica. Personally, I do not notice any difference between the older round and newer oval mica versions, so I would doubt that there would be a significant difference in yours. But I should note that my ears are old and my gear is modest.....


----------



## Skylab

gibosi said:


> I have one with round micas and disc getter and two with oval micas and D getter. My guess is that your tube is intermediate, with the older getter and the newer mica. Personally, I do not notice any difference between the older round and newer oval mica versions, so I would doubt that there would be a significant difference in yours. But I should note that my ears are old and my gear is modest.....




Sounds right. I've never seen an oval mica with the "disc" getter before. But I also agree I bet the difference is not very much.


----------



## Snips

Did anyone here try out the 6SN7GT tubes currently sold by Woo on their site? The WA22 has the Sylvania 6SN7GT upgrade, but the WA6's 6SN7GT doesn't have the brand listed.


----------



## gibosi

Found and purchased a Sylvania (DELCO brand) metal base 6NS7W for peanuts, as the base had completely split and come loose. Notice that it looks similar to the much later coin-base 6SN7s. This suggests to me that when removing these tubes from their sockets, it is perhaps best to grab them by the black phenolic bottom rather than the metal wrapping.
  

  
 I figure that this shouldn't be all that hard to repair. The original brown mastic is rather thick so I think this calls for a very thin glue. I have read that clear nail polish works well for resecuring phenolic bases, but maybe a couple drops of superglue would do the trick. Any suggestions?
  

  
 But in the meantime, a simple twist tie works very well and it has the added benefit of fitting in with the "flying wires everywhere" aesthetic of my very crudely modified LD 1+. And it sounds great!


----------



## Glam Bash

I followed Stavros directions further back in this thread and secured 2 bases with clear finger nail polish. Worked like a charm.


----------



## gibosi

glam bash said:


> I followed Stavros directions further back in this thread and secured 2 bases with clear finger nail polish. Worked like a charm.


 
  
 I searched this thread for "nail polish" and didn't find his post. Would you be able to give me a link?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Mechans1

I have only recently joined Head Fi but have a long time collector of 6SN7s.  I just loved what rolling these tubes could do.  I think I have maxxed out, most of the potential with them. using the SP Extreme I have had since prior to the SP implosion.
 I noticed that I had some NU Black glass GTs in mint condition and gave one of the a shot.  Earlier posts in this thread acknowledged them as being a good -but nothing special tube, in this application.  I beg to differ, these tubes work very well. They are fast enough to get out of the way, but don't seem to interfere with tone delay. I like the sound very much. I have used other highly acclaimed 6SN7s for this amp, but so far this, none has bested the NU.  Some serious contenders including the Sylvania W metal base under current discussion, amongst them (remember for this application only).  I wondered if any others had tried the Black NU GT lately and what they thought?


----------



## spacequeen7

^^will be testing this one soon on DV and Crack
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/270708156269


----------



## Xcalibur255

mechans1 said:


> I have only recently joined Head Fi but have a long time collector of 6SN7s.  I just loved what rolling these tubes could do.  I think I have maxxed out, most of the potential with them. using the SP Extreme I have had since prior to the SP implosion.
> I noticed that I had some NU Black glass GTs in mint condition and gave one of the a shot.  Earlier posts in this thread acknowledged them as being a good -but nothing special tube, in this application.  I beg to differ, these tubes work very well. They are fast enough to get out of the way, but don't seem to interfere with tone delay. I like the sound very much. I have used other highly acclaimed 6SN7s for this amp, but so far this, none has bested the NU.  Some serious contenders including the Sylvania W metal base under current discussion, amongst them (remember for this application only).  I wondered if any others had tried the Black NU GT lately and what they thought?


 

 The NU Black glass seems more sensitive to operating points and plate voltage than most 6SN7 are.  It can sound very different from one amp to the next.  It sounds very nice in the HP8, but is probably the worst sounding driver tube I have tried in my OTL.  I have listened to the tube in four different amps and it sounded quite different in each of them without much common ground aside from a degree of bloom somewhere in the midrange in each case.


----------



## tagosaku

Interesting, thanks 
  
 I like NU GT.  Sounds great in my MPX.
 I think there are too available to make it 'special' compared with rarer ones.


----------



## Glam Bash

gibosi said:


> I searched this thread for "nail polish" and didn't find his post. Would you be able to give me a link?
> 
> Thanks!




I didn't see your question earlier. Didn't mean to ignore you. It basically said for loose bases to turn them clockwise until tight and use a couple drops of nail polish to secure the base. Since your base is completely off the clockwise direction part isn't very helpful. As for the original post its somewhere in the last 268 pages.


----------



## gibosi

Yes, since the base is completely disconnected, I am not sure nail polish will work, so am thinking about a couple drops of super glue or epoxy. But for the time being, the twist-tie is working fine.


----------



## G600

Anything to say about the French Visseaux 6SN7 ?
 I've bought a pair brand new, they are built like a tank !
 I'll plug them in a while.


----------



## spacequeen7

spacequeen7 said:


> ^^will be testing this one soon on DV and Crack
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/270708156269


 
 I'm really enjoying this one ,quickly became one of my favorites 6SN7s 
 probably one of the smoothest 6SN7s I own with wide soundstage,  good bass (unlike Sylvania VT-231/silver label) , and treble,pretty fast but smooth with exceptional detail and good instrument separation-liquid mids


----------



## Silent One

Nice looking glass in the drive slot...


----------



## punit

I am looking at purchasing a Mullard ECC32 / CV181 & the test results for it are as follows :
  
 A1     8.6mA   1.7mA/V      95% 65%
 A2     8.0mA   1.7 mA/V     88% 65%
  
 I have no idea how to read test results, does it mean they are good ? Any help will be highly appreciated.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I would be suspicious that the seller tested them using settings for a 6SN7.  Without knowing which tester was used and the settings used, those values are basically meaningless.
  
 For reference 6.0mA and 2.3mA/V are spec for an ECC32.  The first number is the plate current draw and the second is the transconductance.


----------



## Neogeo333

Got these beauties today but cant test them.  If they test NOS or near nos I think I did good.  
 Guess what the back lettering says?


----------



## gibosi

Received a Brimar 6SN7GT today. Managed to pick it up for $5. Apparently the vendor didn't realize what he had and the picture quality was quite poor, so I was the only one who bid on it. 
  

  
 If I understand the 6SN7GT Identification thread correctly, this is apparently the same as the STC/Brimar 6SN7GTY / CV1988, as it has what I guess are "small anode plate extensions" extending vertically above the top mica.


----------



## Silent One

@ Neogeo333
  
_Lovely. _


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks SO.  Maybe I'll sell a couple and finally get a Glenn's 300b amp.


----------



## Silent One

neogeo333 said:


> Thanks SO.  Maybe I'll sell a couple and finally get a Glenn's 300b amp.


 
 I'm working hard at getting another creation from him as well. Can't wait to drop the plate and peer inside the 300B with my 48" Black light!


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> If I understand the 6SN7GT Identification thread correctly, this is apparently the same as the STC/Brimar 6SN7GTY / CV1988, as it has what I guess are "small anode plate extensions" extending vertically above the top mica.


 
  
 I'm not sure about the "extensions". Are these the ones with them?
  

http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/Brimar+CV1988+6SN7GTY+Jan-Feb+1957+Square+Getter+Brown+Micanol+Base+-+STC+Footscray+England.jpg.html
  
 They are not connected to the anodes, though...


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> I'm not sure about the "extensions". Are these the ones with them?
> 
> 
> http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/Brimar+CV1988+6SN7GTY+Jan-Feb+1957+Square+Getter+Brown+Micanol+Base+-+STC+Footscray+England.jpg.html
> ...


 
  
 Even though they are not connected to the anode, I can see where someone might think they are anode extensions. And these tubes. with 2 extensions of some kind, match the description much better than mine, with anode rods extending slightly above the mica. So it now appears that my tube is the later version 2. Regardless, for $5 it is a pretty good tube.


----------



## Oskari

A veritable bargain!


----------



## Oskari

g600 said:


> Anything to say about the French Visseaux 6SN7 ?


 
  
 I'm afraid not. But a photo would be nice.


----------



## Oskari

spacequeen7 said:


>


 
  
 National Union code -------------------------^


----------



## Oskari

neogeo333 said:


> Guess what the back lettering says?


 
  
 B65  JB  4?


----------



## Neogeo333

XXX KC4
 Hint, its similar to the B65.


----------



## Oskari

B36?


----------



## Neogeo333

Going to stop teasing.


----------



## Oskari

Ah, QA2408, aka QB65. Nice.


----------



## Neogeo333

They should technically be the same as a B65 with a different code right?  They have same glass and base, structurally should also be same.  So, sound wise it should be same as a B65.  Kind of a collectors edition of the B65.


----------



## G600

oskari said:


> I'm afraid not. But a photo would be nice.


 
 No problem, when I'll plug them !


----------



## spacequeen7

oskari said:


> National Union code -------------------------^


 
 unfortunately this didn't tube didn't come with original box
 EIA codes on the tube pictured
 247-National Union
 50-52 -date
  Etched production code (NU type):
 HR
 39 on top mica


----------



## Oskari

neogeo333 said:


> They should technically be the same as a B65 with a different code right?


 
  
 Yep. A special *Q*uality version. How? I don't know.


----------



## Oskari

spacequeen7 said:


> unfortunately this didn't tube didn't come with original box


 
  
 I suppose it would have been a Tele-tone box. But not a single photo of said box to be found?!?


----------



## spacequeen7

how big of a difference is there between RCA RED BASE 5692 *Black plates vs. Grey plates *?


----------



## Currawong

Damn you guys, this is total win! Makes the PSVANE sound boring and lacking in dynamics.


----------



## herbie12389

RCA is the best... hands down.


----------



## punit

currawong said:


> Damn you guys, this is total win! Makes the PSVANE sound boring and lacking in dynamics.


 

 Hmm... I actually had a pair of Psvane 181's saved in my watch list to buy in the near future for use in WA22. So you recommend this over the Psv...... Is the bass impact better than the Psv ?
  
 Thanks


----------



## MoatsArt

I recently bought a few tubes from a seller I trust, including this one. Although labelled as a CV198x, the seller states that it is an incorrectly labelled B65. It sure doesn't look likeca regular B65, but a Google image search revealed a GEC B65 with an identical base, plate structure and transparent glass.

Does anyone have ecperience with this varient who can confirm its identity?


----------



## Neogeo333

Most of my B36 are like that,  with the brown bakelite base clear glass.  B36 is the 12 volt version of the B65.   I haven't seen a CV1988 that is not from Brimar.  Maybe I haven't seen much tubes though.


----------



## Neogeo333

Just got these two puppies today.
 Both are Brimar 13d1 and 13d2.  
 Military version of their 6sn7 and 25sn7.


----------



## herbie12389

neogeo333 said:


> Just got these two puppies today.
> Both are Brimar 13d1 and 13d2.
> Military version of their 6sn7 and 25sn7.


 
  
 What are they going in? Looks somewhat legit


----------



## herbie12389

punit said:


> Hmm... I actually had a pair of Psvane 181's saved in my watch list to buy in the near future for use in WA22. So you recommend this over the Psv...... Is the bass impact better than the Psv ?
> 
> Thanks


 
 PSVANE is for little girly men


----------



## Neogeo333

herbie12389 said:


> PSVANE is for little girly men


----------



## herbie12389

Its all about that brown base baby.... mmmmm


----------



## Neogeo333

herbie12389 said:


> What are they going in? Looks somewhat legit


 
 They are going into a custom GlennStudio OTL amp that uses 6sn7,12sn7, or 25 volt version of the 6sn7 thr 1366 tube.


----------



## herbie12389

Where did you come across the company and why did you choose them?


----------



## Neogeo333

Glenn is one of the member of the trade in headfi.  Just drop by the GlennStudio thread and have a look at his builds.


----------



## herbie12389

Im somewhat new to head fi. I must admit that most of my experience comes from stereo systems but I'm eager to learn! Thanks for the tip!


----------



## Oskari

neogeo333 said:


> I haven't seen a CV1988 that is not from Brimar.


 
  
 CV1988 is just a UK government Common Valve system code for 6SN7GT.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/2010#post_8245116


----------



## Neogeo333

Ofcourse how could I forgot STC.  Thanks Oskari.  But almost all if not all are black glass right?  I mean the cv1988.


----------



## herbie12389

neogeo333 said:


> Ofcourse how could I forgot STC.  Thanks Oskari.  But almost all if not all are black glass right?  I mean the cv1988.


 
 nothing wrong with black glass.


----------



## Neogeo333

In my experience most of the black glass UK 6sn7 variants tend to sound better than the clear ones.  It just my opinion.


----------



## herbie12389

That is correct... smoked glass all day. RCA if you can.


----------



## Oskari

neogeo333 said:


> Ofcourse how could I forgot STC.  Thanks Oskari.  But almost all if not all are black glass right?  I mean the cv1988.


 
  
 I think that's true for STC Oldway production, but not for STC/Brimar Footscray production.
  

http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/Brimar+CV1988+6SN7GT+1970s+Black+Glass+Black+Base+1+-+STC+Oldsway+England+.jpg.html
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/Brimar+CV1988+6SN7GTY+1958+Round+Getter+Brown+Micanol+Base+-+STC+Footscray+England.jpg.html
  
 (Brimar was owned by STC till 1960.)


----------



## Neogeo333

How big was STC back then?
 When I think of them I think they are Western Electric of the UK.  Because the made the UK variant of the 300b and 274b and others.


----------



## herbie12389

neogeo333 said:


> How big was STC back then?
> When I think of them I think they are Western Electric of the UK.  Because the made the UK variant of the 300b and 274b and others.


 
 SIR WE USED TO BE SUCH GOOD FRIENDS AND YOU DISGRACE THE WESTERN NAME LIKE THAT.


----------



## herbie12389

I've been in the Western Game for 20 years now... Still waiting for something new to impress me like this company does.


----------



## herbie12389

STC makes ok stuff... no where near the same quality.


----------



## herbie12389

Western 16a baby...


----------



## herbie12389

753 western cabinets


----------



## Oskari

Quite big I'd say.
  

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Standard_Telephones_and_Cables
  
 For years, STC was a subsidiary of ITT. (ITT also owned _Standard Elektrik Lorenz_ in Germany and other _Standard_ companies in other countries.)


----------



## herbie12389

WE 15a


----------



## herbie12389

Big boy toys


----------



## Neogeo333

Herb your one crazy son of a gun, those WE must sound wonderful.   Very vintage exotic stuff.  I have not the fortune like you to afford WE stuff.  So when your inviting me for a tour of those beauties?


----------



## herbie12389

One must earn the westerns acceptance first. Hahaha


----------



## herbie12389

You don't choose the western. The western chooses you


----------



## herbie12389

A mans tube room


----------



## Neogeo333

How many chicken must I sacrifice?


----------



## Neogeo333

It feel you have the Ferrari and Lambo of the tube world.  All those gems must cost a furtune.


----------



## herbie12389

neogeo333 said:


> How many chicken must I sacrifice?


 
 Hahaha. KFC would have a shortage sir...


----------



## Silent One

herbie12389 said:


> WE 15a


 
 WOWZA!


----------



## spacequeen7

Received RCA 5692 today and after listening to this tube for about 15 min (wow) I went back to the same seller -I knew he had another 5692 just brown base and bought it ,..should I prepare myself for disappointment ,how good is CBS brown base 5692 in comparison to RCA  ?
  
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400696253831&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:3160


----------



## tagosaku

less warm ?
  
 I think many prefer it to the RCA version.


----------



## spacequeen7

^^ first thing I noticed about the RCA was great /sparkly highs and very impact-full bass ,great instrument separation...I wouldn't say it was very warm
 Thanks


----------



## Skylab

I definitely like the CBS 5692 better than the RCA. More transparent/less wooly sounding, but lots of tube magic to its sound.


----------



## spacequeen7

skylab said:


> I definitely like the CBS 5692 better than the RCA. More transparent/less wooly sounding, but lots of tube magic to its sound.


 
 I'm glad to hear this


----------



## rnadell

Can anyone here tell me where to find info on testing the Western Electric 422a
 Thanks


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Another one who prefers the brown base over the red but have they really got to $200?


----------



## spacequeen7

nic rhodes said:


> Another one who prefers the brown base over the red but have they really got to $200?


 
 nope not even close


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Thats good news my last 30 were under $10!


----------



## rosgr63

rnadell said:


> Can anyone here tell me where to find info on testing the Western Electric 422a
> Thanks


 
  
 I assume you refer to a tube tester.
  
 The settings should be in the Tube Setup Chart.


----------



## tagosaku

or do you mean data sheet?
  
 http://www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/422A.pdf


----------



## Khragon

Just got myself a couple of 6SN7 for comparison on my WA22 paring with LCD2 hp: Tungsol BGRP, RCA brown base, standard Tungsol clear glass, Shuguang Treasures CV-181, and Brimar CV1988 black glass.  So far the BGRP wins with it's clear, light and airy presentation, bass is nice and tight.  Switching from it to the RCA brown base I can feel that the music got heavier, slower and overall thicker feeling.  The Tungsol clear glass is a bit better, but sounded dull compared to BGRP.  The Treasures is closer to BGRP but still falls behind slightly with its grainier/dryer presentation, but over all enjoyable.  The Brimar is the closest and I would choose its or BGRP depends on the mood, the Brimar is a slower, but feel smoother than BGRP, I like Brimar better for vocals and BGRP better for classical.  One thing I noticed is that the BGRP has a tad, just a tag, higher noise floor than the rest of my 6SN7s, noise disappeared once you the music started, even between songs I don't really hear it, but it's higher.  The Treasures has the least noise of all my 6SN7 tubes.
  
 Are my observations consistent with that you guy are hearing?


----------



## punit

khragon said:


> Just got myself a couple of 6SN7 for comparison on my WA22 paring with LCD2 hp: Tungsol BGRP, RCA brown base, standard Tungsol clear glass, Shuguang Treasures CV-181, and Brimar CV1988 black glass.  So far the BGRP wins with it's clear, light and airy presentation, bass is nice and tight.  The Tungsol clear glass is a bit better, but sounded dull compared to BGRP.  One thing I noticed is that the BGRP has a tad, just a tag, higher noise floor than the rest of my 6SN7s, noise disappeared once you the music started, even between songs I don't really hear it, but it's higher.
> 
> Are my observations consistent with that you guy are hearing?


 
 I have the TSBGRP & TS clear glass with WA22 & my experience is similar to the above expect I do notice any noise floor with TSBGRP.


----------



## punit

I got these couple of days back & have been in awe since then.This for me is the undisputed King (I know it is not a 6SN7 but as it is a drop in replacement in most 6SN7 amps I am posting it here ). I will not use any adjectives as all the good ones are applicable to it, I have decided to stop buying anymore 6SN7 or equivalent tubes after these, I feel no need anymore, I have reached my destination 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. (please see my profile for my 6SN7 collection).


----------



## Khragon

What is it and where can I buy it?


----------



## punit

Mullard CV 181, these have the most crazy prices amongst 6SN7 (& equivalents) , I searched for these almost for 3 months before I could get them within my budget. Considering the fact that these have killed anymore urge for 6SN7 tube rolling (I had around 4 pairs of 6SN7 on my Ebay watch list to buy, which I have now promptly deleted), I consider it money well spent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Khragon

Hmm how much did you paid for the pair? Any recommendation on where I can get a pair? My quick search didn't show up any lead. Thanks


----------



## punit

I got it on Ebay for $ 450 pair ($390+60 shipping).


----------



## Khragon

That is a bit steep for me especially after the ts bgrp. I'll watch out for it when my wallet recovered. Thanks


----------



## punit

Yes, I know. It was a more difficult decision for me to buy this than the decision to buy WA22  , but it is a diff amp now so dynamic & fast.


----------



## Frank I

If anyone is interested have one pair of black glass plate Tungsol 6SN7  that i will sell for 325.00 shipped and paypal fees included. If someone is interested PM me before I list them on ebay and I have some Westinghouse and Sylvania I will be selling shortly. I also have extra pairs of 6F8G if anyone is interested PM me. I listed some other in the FS section.  The TS BGP  are no  longer available - sale pending- plent of other I listed in the FS section


----------



## elmoe

frank i said:


> If anyone is interested have one pair of black glass plate Tungsol 6SN7  that i will sell for 325.00 shipped and paypal fees included. If someone is interested PM me before I list them on ebay and I have some Westinghouse and Sylvania I will be selling shortly. I also have extra pairs of 6F8G if anyone is interested PM me. I listed some other in the FS section.  The TS BGP  are no  longer available - sale pending- plent of other I listed in the FS section


 
  
 What are the 6F8Gs you have for sale? Are they all matched? Any Tung Sols VT-99 in there?


----------



## Frank I

elmoe said:


> What are the 6F8Gs you have for sale? Are they all matched? Any Tung Sols VT-99 in there?


 
 PM sent- for anyone interested here is the linkhttp://www.head-fi.org/forum/newestpost/718074


----------



## jazzwave

I got RCA VT231 Grey glass from *Bay, plug to my SET 300B as input tube replace the Sylvania VT231 brown base.
 Sound of the grey glass more warm, nice but loose detal and high...sound litle bit dull in my amp.
  
 I change my interconnect (ic) cable from DAC to amp to Analysis Plus oval, I always use this IC when system feel dull.
 The amp sound more detail, vocal of Ingram Washington more pleasant.
  
 My personal opinion, the grey glass is perferct for vocal ; warm but soundstage not wide as Sylvania VT231 and lose details..
 For all round music I prefer Sylvania VT231 brown base;wide, deep,detail
  
 ~ron~


----------



## Greystoke

I got a Darkvoice 336SE from a forum member a few weeks ago, and the previous owner was nice enough to include a brown-base Sylvania 6SN7 (JAN-CHS-6SN7WGT) and some type of 6AS7 with a metal base/straight bottle.  Since then I've tried a variety of low-buck 6SN7s, and I have to admit that I keep going back to the Sylvania.  Most were either really flat sounding (GE, Motorola), or actually had a strong hum in one or the other channel (Tung-Sol mouse ear, RCA). 
  
 Today I got in a pair of 6SN7s labeled Hytron and CBS, and I'm listening to the Hytron now.  Quite a warm sound, a little muted in the upper registers, but very natural voices (I watch a lot of movies and prefer headphones in the evenings).  Very pleased with this one, but I think the Sylvania is still clearer overall.
  
 Still on the lookout for interesting tubes, and have a couple of TS Tall Boy styles on the way, plus a Svetlana power tube.  I also ran across one I hadn't heard of; the Shuguang CV1988.  Is this worth trying, or skip for something better like Brimar, Mullard, or...?


----------



## elmoe

6SN7 tubes worth trying (in my opinion):
  
 Sophia 6SN7 (my favorite tube currently)
 Ken-Rad VT-231 "black top"
 Sylvania VT-231 "bad boy"
 Hytron 6SN7
  
 Right now I have a Ken Rad black top driving 2 matched Sophias on the outputs of my MPX3. So far it's the best combo I've heard yet, although the Sylvania VT-231s on the outputs come as a close second.


----------



## gibosi

greystoke said:


> Still on the lookout for interesting tubes, and have a couple of TS Tall Boy styles on the way, plus a Svetlana power tube.  I also ran across one I hadn't heard of; the Shuguang CV1988.  Is this worth trying, or skip for something better like Brimar, Mullard, or...?


 
  
 I can't comment on the Shuguang, but I can suggest that the following threads might help you decide which of the 6SN7's you might want to try next:
  
 6SN7 Reference thread
  
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 6SN7 Identification thread
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide
  
 And I would also suggest that you take some time and try to skim through the 274 pages of this thread. Yes, 274 pages is a bit much, but there is a lot of good information to be found.
  
 Cheers


----------



## musicman59

Has anybody tried the Psvane CV181-TII aka 6SN7? How do they sound?


----------



## SpudHarris

musicman59 said:


> Has anybody tried the Psvane CV181-TII aka 6SN7? How do they sound?




I would say they are the best of new production tubes. They are up there as one of my favourites.


----------



## punit

spudharris said:


> I would say they are the best of new production tubes. They are up there as one of my favourites.


 
 How would you rate them against :

TSBGRP 6SN7
Mullard CV 181
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Lorspeaker

musicman59 said:


> Has anybody tried the Psvane CV181-TII aka 6SN7? How do they sound?


 
  

  
 Quick swap test....
 vs my GE 6SN7 ( 1953 Ken Rad?), this Psvane projects a more SPACIOUS, TALLER, DEEPER layered soundstage...and i think it goes lower, cos i felt my DT770/600ohm drivers reverberating more often thru my testplaylist. ( yes right this moment..HansZimmerGladiatorsBattle  )
  
 ( done many prior swaps with my other nondescript 6sn7s , same wow effect each time ) 
  
 ps:  there was a low buzz when new, but after about 50hours of burning in...its gone.


----------



## spacequeen7

^^^ this tubes require 150 hours for proper burn-in so you not even half way there ..just my 2c


----------



## Lorspeaker

i should have chalked up those hours since last year...cos it refused to give up that slot..but i yank it out now n then


----------



## spacequeen7

this tubes look great ..I'm thinking about getting Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z ,this tube is physically smaller then Psvane CV181 so I'm little worry about the soundstage


----------



## SpudHarris

punit said:


> How would you rate them against :
> 
> TSBGRP 6SN7
> Mullard CV 181
> ...




I don't own Mullard CV181's so can't comment. Compared to TSBGRP? In my set up the Tung Sol is king... I quite often have the curiosity to roll to see if anything betters them but I always go back. Like I said earlier though, in new production tubes, I believe they are the best I have.


----------



## rosgr63

I don't like the GE 6SN7's, average sounding.
  
 The Mullard ECC32/CV181 are worth a try provided your transformer can handle the extra current.
  
 The Chinese CV181 have the same specs as the 6SN7 so no problems using them.


----------



## MoatsArt

Does anyone have a set of Va/Ia curves for the ECC34? I want to determine how much current to feed them to achieve a 75V operating point with a -1.5V bias.


----------



## Oskari

moatsart said:


> Does anyone have a set of Va/Ia curves for the ECC34? I want to determine how much current to feed them to achieve a 75V operating point with a -1.5V bias.


 
  
 How's this?
  

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/short/054/2/271.pdf


----------



## MoatsArt

You are truly a legend! Not highly resolved, but enough to get into the ballpark. I couldn't find anything!


----------



## Neogeo333

punit said:


> How would you rate them against :
> 
> TSBGRP 6SN7
> Mullard CV 181
> ...


 
 In my system the ECC32 or CV181 is more musical with a hint of warm sound and airiness.  While the TS are more neutral.  It all depends on the kind of music been listened.  With jazz and vocals
 i prefer the Mullards but with rock the TS are better suited to my ears.   Both are very good tubes.


----------



## punit

neogeo333 said:


> In my system the ECC32 or CV181 is more musical with a hint of warm sound and airiness.  While the TS are more neutral.  It all depends on the kind of music been listened.  With jazz and vocals
> i prefer the Mullards but with rock the TS are better suited to my ears.   Both are very good tubes.


 

 What amp are you using them in ? In my WA22 I find the CV181 more dynamic & has more punch than the TS BGRP.


----------



## Neogeo333

Im using them in my Liquid Glass and Glenn's OTL amp.  
  
 Try the 6f8g TS round plate, some people say its better than the 6sn7.  I have forgotten its sound signature but will definitely
 give it a chance in the near future,


----------



## lannik

tung-sol 6f8g round plate provide a clean background and beautiful high and high quaility but not  much quantity pound bass, buy maybe not for the "warm" fans. good at orchestral music


----------



## punit

neogeo333 said:


> Im using them in my Liquid Glass and *Glenn's OTL* amp.
> 
> Try the 6f8g TS round plate, some people say its better than the 6sn7.  I have forgotten its sound signature but will definitely
> give it a chance in the near future,


 
 My next amp in another 6-8 weeks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


lannik said:


> tung-sol 6f8g round plate provide a clean background and beautiful high and high quaility but not  much quantity pound bass, buy maybe not for the "warm" fans. good at orchestral music


 

 Just did an A/B with TSBGRP 6SN7 & 6F8G. I concurr with lannik. 6SN7 has more bass, 6F8G has slightly better sound stage. IMHO.


----------



## Khragon

How much more bass would you say the 6SN7 has over 6F8G?
  
 I'll be able to do my own comparison soon, a TS 6F8G is on it way to me, just curious in the mean time.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## punit

with HD 800, TSBGRP 6SN7 gives me slightly more bass punch than the TSBG 6F8G, not by a lot but it is noticeable.


----------



## BlakeT

punit said:


> with HD 800, TSBGRP 6SN7 gives me slightly more bass punch than the TSBG 6F8G, not by a lot but it is noticeable.


 
  
 Can you describe or compare the two in terms of the differences in the mids and highs?


----------



## punit

IMO there is no noticeable difference between  tonality of highs & mids . TSBGRP sounds more dynamic, probably bcos of the punchy bass. TSBG 6F8G has slightly better soundstage , highs are airier.
  
KMSV please also do most your comparison when you have spent some time with them. Curious to see if you might have different opinion depending on your source & Hp's.


----------



## G600

If somebody wants a pair of staggered plates TS 6F8Gs (labeled VT-99), I'm thinking to put them on the classified. Feel free to PM me in the meantime.


----------



## SpudHarris

These came today....



Had them a while ago when I had my WA6, looking forward to trying tonight


----------



## punit

spudharris said:


> These came today....
> 
> 
> 
> Had them a while ago when I had my WA6, looking forward to trying tonight


 

 So what do you think about them ?


----------



## SpudHarris

punit said:


> So what do you think about them ?




They are very very nice indeed. Can't say they are better than TSBGRP but they are similar, maybe a little more airy. A nice alternative for sure. Will probably get a back up pair at some point.....


----------



## Frank I

I am closing my add tomorrow for the Tungsol 6F8G in pair 1942 round plates new in original boxes
 ! pair mathe dplate fltat eplate TS BGP 1942 n thir boxes and new and unuse 
  
 Both these are matched pairs and  in their boxes. price for the two pair sis 300.00 plus shipping. Ebay this weekend last chance to save for headifi member. My feedback guarantee you a good transaction. Please PM me if interested happy listeneing


----------



## SpudHarris

Can you tell me what shape the mica is? Oval, Round, Square?


----------



## Frank I

oval


----------



## SpudHarris

Had a couple of days with the TS6F8G and they are super tubes but I just put a set of TSBGRP back in and there is a difference. The TS6F8G is not as focused, it's nice but music seems fuller and composed with the TSBGRP. I find this scenario when using my MST Fi-quest in 4 Channel mode compared to 3 channel mode. It's spacious and sparkly in 4 C mode but not as realistic as 3 C mode.

The TS6F8G is still a great tube for certain genre, it really shines with stuff from the Ultimae or Celestial Dragon labels i.e. Ambient / Psy Trance.


----------



## Xcalibur255

If they really were NOS, give them some more time.  The 6F8G and 6SN7 are electrically identical, in every way.  They should sound exactly the same when compared apples to apples, setting aside the natural minor variations you see from tube to tube due to their being hand made.  If the larger glass or mica structure offers any better resistance to vibrations then the 6F8G might have a small advantage in low level detail resolution, but it's not going to be a big difference that strikes you right off.


----------



## Neogeo333

Just got these two bad boys today.


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice tubes, well done!


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks Stavros,  just trying to keep up with you.


----------



## Oskari

They do look sweet!


----------



## gibosi

Does anyone have an idea what this is?
  
 PU B05 12SN7 1900-266 Adapter
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-PU-B05-12SN7-1900-266-Adapter-Possible-Early-Vacuum-Tube-Computer-Part-/291166145929?


----------



## rosgr63

Very interesting adapter.


----------



## Oskari

Any idea as to its purpose?


----------



## spacequeen7

neogeo333 said:


> Just got these two bad boys today.


 
 little confused 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marconi-6SN7-B65-ECC32-QB65-Meral-Base-/151324176309?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item233b9fafb5


----------



## Mechans1

Wowzer where oh where? I am duly impressed. Any more to be had? I have to ask! I just missed out on the legendary Swedish military tubes by a couple of days a few months back. My consolation prize didn't compare - a pair of the "original Bad Boys" tubes i.e. from the batch that started the nick name. I own several good pairs already so it was only for collecting reasons.


----------



## Neogeo333

spacequeen7 said:


> little confused
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Let just say im downsizing to move to DHT tubes.  And good implementation of dht amps don't cone cheap.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

What DHT are you going to use?


----------



## Neogeo333

For now the popular 300B.


----------



## rosgr63

Glenn's 300 perhaps?????
  
 Nice tubes George, Good Luck.


----------



## 2359glenn

Then maybe a nice #26 preamp with filament bias to go along with it.


----------



## rosgr63

That sounds like a dream amp.
  
 George is very Lucky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Neogeo333

Glenn is always with the ideas that teasing me.   Your also lucky Stavros.   Been the official beta tester for many Glenn's creations.


----------



## rosgr63

I am *very very* lucky for sure.
 Glenn is so clever and gifted.
  
 He's family anyway.


----------



## kchew

Some funny looking tubes just came in.


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tubes, well done.
 What do you think of their SQ?


----------



## kchew

Pretty good actually. Very detailed and quite neutral. I'm a bit annoyed that the tubes are of different construction though; one has straight slots instead of round holes on the plates, and is shorter than the other. I'm currently speaking to the seller to see if I can get a pair with same construction.


----------



## dsd-7

Yea I don't blame you there.  I know it may be a bit over-obsessive, but I like my tubes to look matched as well.


----------



## gibosi

I am pretty sure these were not manufactured by GEC... Does anyone know who made them?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-6AS7W-Telefunken-Rohre-NEU-6AS7-ECC230-Valve-NOS-Tube-amp-/390889680968?
  
 Edit: Oh, I meant to post this in the 6AS7 thread... sorry.....


----------



## gibosi

Does anyone have any idea who made these?
  
 PAIR IEC MULLARD ECC 6SN7GT METAL BASE VERY RARE TESTED GOOD
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-IEC-MULLARD-ECC-6SN7GT-METAL-BASE-VERY-RARE-TESTED-GOOD-/281396922488?
  
  




  
  
 These don't look like anything I have ever seen before.....


----------



## rosgr63

Mullard never made any 6SN7's.
  
 They look like MOV made B65's.


----------



## gibosi

Yes, they do. But then I see "MADE IN USA".... so I wonder.....


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I am fairly sure MOV is correct for the maker also could be labelled Marconi, Osram, GEC, MWT, Pretty much at the top of my 6SN7GT list though bass heads might prefer other tubes. Many labelled as CV1988s for the military but also often seen as B65s.


----------



## Oskari

Also, I think that's CEI aka Calvert, not IEC.
  
 Perhaps they thought that nobody would believe their "Made in England" anymore.


----------



## gibosi

So MOV B65's they are. Thanks guys. 
  
 And perhaps they were destined for the American market and someone figured it might be better if they were "Made in USA"? So they lied! lol  
  
 This reminds me... I have a pair of Siemens EH90's, Blackburn production codes, stamped "Made in Germany". Another lie....


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Very common, my favourite are Amperex 12AU7 labelled made in Holland but from Japan by Matsu****a!


----------



## bluesjun

I have tried this smoke version B65 before. But I found them not as good as clean glass b65.
 For me, Brimar 6sn7 is the best buy.


----------



## MMMan

Just wanted to say Hi!!

I found this thread last week and have started working my way through. Up to page 67 now and have already used everyone's insights towards picking up some nice 6sn7s. I have some TS Mickey Mouse Ears on the way.... Great price at $22!! Knew what to look for because of this thread  I splurged on some real 1578s.... A bit more than $22!! And some other fun purchases on the way too. I'm having a great time, thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

Best,

Gordon
Ps - not yet an addict, but sure struck with the fever!!

Pps - hi Gibosi, good to see you here!!


----------



## rosgr63

The TS Mouse ears are nice tubes and you got them for a great price.
 Let us know what you think of them and also the 1578's.
  
 Happy Listening!!!!!!!


----------



## setamp

I have been listening to a Mullard ECC32 in my ECBA and have to say - WOW!


----------



## BlakeT

I heart the RCA 6sn7gt vt-231 grey glass.


----------



## MMMan

thewuss said:


> hey, guys.
> long time listener, first time caller.
> 
> 
> ...




I have a 1955 pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTBs in my amp right now. They were $37 and sound fantastic. They will be a hard to best reference standard for the others I have on the way...

G


----------



## MMMan

Mystery tubes of the day:
  

  
 I picked these up from eBay for $31. There was NO description of either except for '6SN7', and they 'test good'.... figured it was worth the mystery. Any ideas what they might be?
 When I look at the original image from e-bay, enlarge it and 'imagine hard' I think I can see a CKR on the tube on the left. Gosh, I hope so!!!
 Best,
 G


----------



## Neogeo333

Left is Ken Rad and right RCA.


----------



## MMMan

Cool. I had my bet on an RCA but wasn't sure if there was anything else that looked like it....


----------



## MMMan

Now for the 'bit of a mystery' tubes of the day:
  

  
 I got these two off ebay for $25. I'm pretty sure the Magnavox is a National Union re-brand... thoughts?
 Also, I have seen NUs with variable length graphite coats (as with the second NU in this pic). Is this a 'date' related process or just inherent variability?
  
 Thx,
  
 G


----------



## Neogeo333

Yeap both NU, I like the one that are tall and says Navy on the base.  Hard to come by these days.  Cheers Mmman.


----------



## MMMan

And the last mystery of the day:
  

  
 Pretty sure this is my third NU of the day, if I'm reading the factory code properly (247)??


----------



## MMMan

PS - learned it all from this list!!!! Thanks for all the great re-branded and mystery tubes I've been able to find!!!


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tube.
 247 is the maker's code for NU, this tube was made in March, 1951.


----------



## MMMan

Thx...

I just counted the number of 6sn7s I've purchased from ebay over the past couple of weeks: 36! Is there some sort of shot I can take to break this growing 'hobby'???

Of all the tubes on their way to me, my TS Mouse Ears arrived first. Two rebranded tubes (Motorola and Greylock) at $22. The BEST $22 I have ever spent. I'm listening to Miles Davis KoB right now... And it sounds beautiful ( but in all honesty, it always does!)....

Way too early to give real listening impressions, but long enough to know I am enjoying myself!!


----------



## tagosaku

mmman said:


> I just counted the number of 6sn7s I've purchased from ebay over the past couple of weeks: 36! Is there some sort of shot I can take to break this growing 'hobby'???


 
  
 Took about an year in my case. Good luck


----------



## rosgr63

MMMan you are falling fast, be careful.......
  
 Happy listening, enjoy the music, that's what counts!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MMMan

Music? I knew I forgot something!! Oh well, back to ebay....


----------



## Lorspeaker

rosgr63 said:


> MMMan you are falling fast, be careful.......
> 
> Happy listening, enjoy the music, that's what counts!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
  
 LMAO...
  
 i just bought a dozen ( diff types ) over the last two to three weeks.. seasonal fever.


----------



## MMMan

lorspeaker said:


> LMAO...
> 
> i just bought a dozen ( diff types ) over the last two to three weeks.. seasonal fever.




Nice score... Hope we aren't bidding against each other!!

Enjoy...


----------



## MMMan

Well, I had 16 tubes arrive today. A lot of rebrands and only two mystery tubes. Any idea what this is (please)?



No other marks anywhere...


----------



## MMMan

This one was a real mystery, but I sorted it. Just for fun, do the plates give this away? If so, next time I won't get fooled...


Thx...


----------



## Lorspeaker

after the Psvane,  i kinda lost (appetite) what to buy for 6sn7s ...
  
 i see brands on the fotos....?


----------



## MMMan

Psvanes? Hope you enjoy them.... 

The CBS tubes don't have a makers code, or a year... Unless that xg is the year. I know it is a gtb, but that's all I know...


----------



## 2359glenn

mmman said:


> This one was a real mystery, but I sorted it. Just for fun, do the plates give this away? If so, next time I won't get fooled...
> 
> 
> Thx...


 
  
 It's a 6BL7
 These tubes sound good if you have a amp that can use them as outputs


----------



## MMMan

Thanks glenn,

Your reputation precedes you... I have no doubt you could pick it. The plates give it away?

It came in a grab bag of 6sn7s... And was supposed to be a 6sn7. Glad the glass etching was still there otherwise I would have never known.

BTW, I was wondering if I could use a multi meter to check for shorts after shipping. Any specific recommendations would be appreciated.

G
Ps - I looked up the price of am Amplitrex.... Not in this lifetime  too many tubes to buy!


----------



## MMMan

Also, about 100 posts back on this thread you thought about making a adapter that up regulates heater voltage (6.3 to 12v) to allow use of 12sn7 s in 6sn7 amps. Did you ever do this? It would likely sell like hot cakes!!!!


----------



## Skylab

mmman said:


> Well, I had 16 tubes arrive today. A lot of rebrands and only two mystery tubes. Any idea what this is (please)?
> 
> 
> 
> No other marks anywhere...




Not sure what the mystery is here. This is a CBS 6SN7GTB. Nice little tube.


----------



## rosgr63

mmman said:


> Also, about 100 posts back on this thread you thought about making a adapter that up regulates heater voltage (6.3 to 12v) to allow use of 12sn7 s in 6sn7 amps. Did you ever do this? It would likely sell like hot cakes!!!!


 
  
 Glenn makes these adapters, but his amps can be built with a 6/12/25V switch so you can use any of them.
  
 The CBS 6SN7GTB is a very nice tube as Rob mentioned above.


----------



## gibosi

rosgr63 said:


> The CBS 6SN7GTB is a very nice tube as Rob mentioned above.


 
  
 In the 6SN7 Reference thread:
  
 "CBS/Hytron 6SN7GTB
 [black bases, red labels, side getter]
 These tubes are rebranded GE 6SN7GTB tubes"
  
 Are they rebranded GE's?


----------



## 2359glenn

mmman said:


> Also, about 100 posts back on this thread you thought about making a adapter that up regulates heater voltage (6.3 to 12v) to allow use of 12sn7 s in 6sn7 amps. Did you ever do this? It would likely sell like hot cakes!!!!


 

 I have already made this adapter but the amp has to be running the 6SN7 off AC.
 If you can take a reading 6.3 volts AC or close.  It will not work on a amp running the 6SN7 on DC.


----------



## MMMan

skylab said:


> Not sure what the mystery is here. This is a CBS 6SN7GTB. Nice little tube.


 
  
 Thanks. There were no date or manufacturer codes, and I didn't have anything to compare this to. Nice to know it is a real CBS, by CBS!!


----------



## MMMan

xcalibur255 said:


> Ha!  I knew I wasn't crazy.  The second I saw it I thought "that looks like the photo of Rob's tube closet."
> 
> What a cool idea.




Yes, that is the first thought that entered my mind too!!!

PS - yes, I'm doing my homework... Reading the entire thread from the start...


----------



## Rossliew

Is the CV1988 a direct replacement for the 6SN7 tube? They sure are expensive!


----------



## punit

rossliew said:


> Is the CV1988 a direct replacement for the 6SN7 tube? They sure are expensive!


 

 To the best of my knowledge & experience, Yes. I bought mine for $ 140 about 3 months back. How much did you see them for ?


----------



## Rossliew

punit said:


> To the best of my knowledge & experience, Yes. I bought mine for $ 140 about 3 months back. How much did you see them for ?


 
 I just did a random search on eBay and the listings were for $200+ for pairs...must have been inflation peaking recently..


----------



## Lorspeaker

If the base of a tube is slightly loose, what is the best/safe way to fix it ?
 plaster/superglue/ what can withstand the heat ?
  
 ( when i insert the tube, sometimes it didnt light up, if i give it a slight touch on the base, it will work)


----------



## punit

lorspeaker said:


> If the base of a tube is slightly loose, what is the best/safe way to fix it ?
> plaster/superglue/ what can withstand the heat ?


 
 Try clear nail polish, I tried it once it worked (altough I couldn't be bothered to go buy a bottle of clear NP so I used a red one which my wife had). I think someone on head fi had recommended it  few months back but can't remember who.
  
 edit: got it
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/1170


----------



## Lorspeaker

Thanks Punit,
 tried it a while ago, think it is working...
 not exactly clear polish...with some silver dust


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> Are they rebranded GE's?


 
  
 That is a fair question. The side getter and the (sometimes) stencilled-looking type number are very GE-like. On the other hand, the plate structure is very Sylvania-like, and GE used ladder plates in their GTBs. (Only ladder plates?)


----------



## punit

lorspeaker said:


> Thanks Punit,
> tried it a while ago, think it is working...
> not exactly clear polish...with some silver dust


 

 hmm...you audiophiles have to put silver in everything ....


----------



## Glam Bash

Intriguing, I would have guessed Sylvania because of the angled plates. I just assumed CBS got gobbled up by a bigger company by the time the 6SN7GTB "rolled" around.


----------



## gibosi

I find the early CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT to be quite a nice tube, but as the 6SN7 Reference thread suggests that the later CBS 6SN7GTB are GE rebrands I have simply ignored them. As it now appears that these red label GTB's may not be rebrands, I think I should give them a try.


----------



## MMMan

glam bash said:


> Intriguing, I would have guessed Sylvania because of the angled plates. I just assumed CBS got gobbled up by a bigger company by the time the 6SN7GTB "rolled" around.




So, here are some pics of the CBS tube compared to a 55 sylvania GTB:




From the front, the triangular plates are identical. From the side, there are five holes of identical size.... But the flaps made by the hole punch are on different sides. Other than this very minor difference, same plates... Same tube manufacturer?


----------



## MMMan




----------



## MMMan

2359glenn said:


> I have already made this adapter but the amp has to be running the 6SN7 off AC.
> If you can take a reading 6.3 volts AC or close.  It will not work on a amp running the 6SN7 on DC.




My amp uses 6.3V AC.... Do you have some pics and more info? Thx...


----------



## Oskari

mmman said:


> Same tube manufacturer?


 
  
 I'm not saying that the tube wasn't made by CBS, but who knows, perhaps designs/tools/supplies were shared.


----------



## MMMan

oskari said:


> I'm not saying that the tube wasn't made by CBS, but who knows, perhaps designs/tools/supplies were shared.




Thx.. I'm just interested in learning.


----------



## MMMan

Real 1578s... Metal base and holes in the plate. 

Wow, these sound amazing! Great bass, great treble, great dynamic transients (attack) and beautiful voices. Wow. Worth every penny!


----------



## MMMan

Bargain of the century. $6


----------



## MMMan

These arrived on Friday:



Wow, they sound amazing!!

Beautiful highs and mids, plus deep clean bass you can 'feel'. These are VERY nice tubes!!


----------



## Lorspeaker

always thrilled to see one of our headfiers scoring a gem , and enjoying it !


----------



## Neogeo333

mmman said:


> Bargain of the century. $6


 
 These are very nice tubes.  Wish I could get a few for that price for backup.   Great find.


----------



## MMMan

neogeo333 said:


> These are very nice tubes.  Wish I could get a few for that price for backup.   Great find.




Thx... A total of $14 for the pair


----------



## Lorspeaker

N the postage is 20bucks....!?


----------



## MMMan

lorspeaker said:


> N the postage is 20bucks....!?




I live on Australia, so postage from the US usually runs $15 to $20 for a lot of 5 to 7 tubes. An extra $2 to $3 each tube....


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys.
  
 Am relatively new to this particular thread, but have followed your postings for some time recently.
  
 My first reason was for using the 6SN7 as power tubes in our rolling experiments over at the Little Dot...Rolling Guide. And they were a great improvement over the stock 6N6Ps or 6H30Pi-EH (and I found even over the VERY expensive 6N30P-DR). Then we discovered the 6AS7G (especially the GEC version!), which even surpassed the 6SN7 (as power tube, that is).
  
 Well, in my quest for a better amp to do real justice to these tubes, but at a price below the likes of the Glenn, LaFigaro 339 etc. I approached the makers of the Feliks-Audio Espressivo-E (in Poland) and suggested they consider a unit that used these two types of tubes - both of which are very popular, of course -  instead of the current 6N1Ps and 6N6Ps...And they agreed! They have now started a prototype, which they hope to complete within the month and are seriously working towards (hopefully!) being able to pitch it *BELOW $500*, which I am sure would be quite a feat and which I suspect might appeal to some of you who appreciate the 6SN7, especially in combination with the 6AS7G/6080.
  
 If anyone is interested and would like to know more/follow progress, I have started a new thread - "*Feliks-Audio...a 6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype"*.
  
 The more interest is shown, the more incentive there will be for them to _make_ it work! (Well, to my way of thinking anyway...). So all are welcome...


----------



## punit

Darkvoice already makes an economical amp which uses 6SN7 & 6080 / 6AS7 tubes. Is this something similar ?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/DarkVoice-336SE-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-neat-technics-/260695457691?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Amplifiers&hash=item3cb2a8ff9b


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/newestpost/732875


----------



## hypnos1

punit said:


> Darkvoice already makes an economical amp which uses 6SN7 & 6080 / 6AS7 tubes. Is this something similar ?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DarkVoice-336SE-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-neat-technics-/260695457691?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Amplifiers&hash=item3cb2a8ff9b


 
  
 Hi punit.
  
 Lorspeaker has kindly posted a link to the thread relating to the Feliks-Audio project, which I shall keep updated the minute I get news from these guys.
  
 My initial understanding was that the unit would be using 2 6SN7s and 2 6AS7G/6080s, which I feel would be far more preferable to just one of each, or even 2 drivers and just 1 power ( I have been experimenting with a modest unit that uses just 1 6AS7G equiv. (mine being a GEC version) and I suspect that, because of the low amplification factor of this tube family, it really does need TWO in order to provide the necessary power and dynamics.
 I have not yet been informed of any change (or consideration of...) in this configuration, but I shall request confirmation anyway...
  
 And so therefore, assuming things are still on course for 2 of each, we should be looking at an amp much more up to the mark! Let's sincerely hope so, lol...
  
  
 Edit. Have literally just received a message from Lukasz at Feliks-Audio, and he has confirmed that there WILL be 2 6AS7G equivalents (ie 6N13s...which of course we will all replace with our own favourites - even the Russians aren't _too_ bad, if necessary!). So this is good news...and he feels this should also help feed low impedance 'phones.
 They are still testing to see if 1 or 2 6SN7s are needed, but I think the most important factor is the 2 powers...
  
 A bit more info on the relevant thread...


----------



## john57

If a balanced outs can be made?


----------



## 2359glenn

john57 said:


> If a balanced outs can be made?


 

 On what?
 And exactly what improvement do you expect with balanced to headphones?


----------



## Lorspeaker

For me, it is pure curiosity, i have a balanced dac/amp from audiogd..NFB10.32,
 and it is just begging to have a "balanced" tube amp to stick its cable into. 
  
 -------------------
 I did a private shootout with all my 6as7s just a few days ago,
 and for a particular combo of tubes n cables,
 i actually preferred the *wingedC 6N13 OTK* tube..
 vs the Tungsol dimple plate 5998..Chathams, RCAs, Westinghams, 
 i had a* Psvane CV181 Tii* as the front tube on the DV336se then.
  
 When i switched the front tube to a *Tungsol 6SN7GTB*,
 the preference goes to a humble *RCA 6as7*, with a slight shift of sonic emphasis.
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






  
 The point to me is...there is that synergy betw gears n your taste
 that will decide what is "best"..nothing's universal. 
 U just hav to listen to it n decide.
  
  
 ps:
 Havent put my money down on any GECs yet.. 
 (or any exotic dark/blackplate 6SN7s)
 coldfeet when bidding at EBAY...
 once i get pass usd20bucks  lol


----------



## Neogeo333

I have a few xlr cables I want to try without adapters.   Thats the only reason I want a balanced input.


----------



## 2359glenn

neogeo333 said:


> I have a few xlr cables I want to try without adapters.   Thats the only reason I want a balanced input.


 

 Your amp has XLR output
 Should have asked for XLR input but the amp is still SE
  
 Really there are no balanced tube amps. Only ones that claim to be but really are not
 Especially OTL it would double the output impedance and that is not good.


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks Glenn,  my amps does have 4 pin XLR but I was talking about a balanced input along a SE input.  I dont care if its a dummy balanced input but to be able to use my other cables would be great.


----------



## 2359glenn

lorspeaker said:


> For me, it is pure curiosity, i have a balanced dac/amp from audiogd..NFB10.32,
> and it is just begging to have a "balanced" tube amp to stick its cable into.
> 
> -------------------
> ...


 
  
 I don't normally say but I like the wingedC/Svetlana 6N13s best and I have designed my amps with this tube.
 They can handle more current then a US 6AS7and have lower impedance.


----------



## Lorspeaker

aint this a beau.... the big C logo with the "wings" on each side,
 the music from this tube stood out like fresh air during the session.


----------



## john57

I agree with Glenn that the Svetlana 6N13 is a good dependable tube and have used the Svetlana brand in my big QuickSliver mono blocks without problems.


----------



## hypnos1

john57 said:


> If a balanced outs can be made?


 
  
 Hi john57.
  
 The feliks-audio guys have also stated they do not think balanced output warrants the cost...so will not be on the base unit. And I imagine there would need to be massive demand for it to become an optional upgrade further down the road...
  


john57 said:


> I agree with Glenn that the Svetlana 6N13 is a good dependable tube and have used the Svetlana brand in my big QuickSliver mono blocks without problems.


 
  
 This is good news...so it looks like the stock powers may well please those who don't want to bother experimenting with alternatives...so much the better (it's going to be REAL interesting to see how they compare to my Chathams and GECs, lol!).


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> For me, it is pure curiosity, i have a balanced dac/amp from audiogd..NFB10.32,
> and it is just begging to have a "balanced" tube amp to stick its cable into.
> 
> -------------------
> ...


 
  
  
 Yes, *L*, this factor "synergy" is a really fascinating, and sometimes _frustrating_, one to be sure...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Another fan of the Svetlana 6N13 here  just don't tell too many people please


----------



## Skylab

You guys know about this thread, yes? 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here


----------



## hypnos1

hypnos1 said:


> Hi punit.
> 
> Lorspeaker has kindly posted a link to the thread relating to the Feliks-Audio project, which I shall keep updated the minute I get news from these guys.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again, punit.
  
 Just to update here as well as the Feliks-Audio thread mentioned, they have informed me that they will in fact be using TWO 6SN7s...mainly to help with driving low-impedance 'phones. So that should be a very useful attribute...and as far as _I'm_ concerned, make the appearance MUCH more attractive over the single one perched at the front lol!


----------



## punit

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again, punit.
> 
> Just to update here as well as the Feliks-Audio thread mentioned, they have informed me that they will in fact be using TWO 6SN7s...mainly to help with driving low-impedance 'phones. So that should be a very useful attribute...and as far as _I'm_ concerned, make the appearance MUCH more attractive over the single one perched at the front lol!


 

 single 6SN7 does not look that bad sometimes


----------



## hypnos1

punit said:


> single 6SN7 does not look that bad sometimes


 
  
 Ooh, that's nice, punit...but look what else is accompanying it, lol!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Wish my wallet was a bit deeper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## 2359glenn

> >
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I don't see what the 6SN7 has to do with driving low impedance phones. The 6AS7s will be driving the phones.
 Having a extra stage will just invert the signal. Each amplification stage inverts the signal so with one 6SN7
 1/2 is used for right and 1/2 is used for left and the 6AS7 inverts it back to being the same as recorded.
 In a amp with a output transformer the transformer can be used ti invert it back to being right.
 Like a 300B amp driven by a 6SN7 1/2 inverts it the other 1/2 inverts it back the 300B inverts it and the transformer
 makes it right.
  An inverted signal you might not notice it immediately but it just don't sound right. when the speaker is
 supposed to being pushed out it will be going in .


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> I don't see what the 6SN7 has to do with driving low impedance phones. The 6AS7s will be driving the phones.
> Having a extra stage will just invert the signal. Each amplification stage inverts the signal so with one 6SN7
> 1/2 is used for right and 1/2 is used for left and the 6AS7 inverts it back to being the same as recorded.
> In a amp with a output transformer the transformer can be used ti invert it back to being right.
> ...


 
  
 Hi 2359glenn.
  
 Please correct me if I'm wrong, but surely if 1 is used for _each_ channel (as opposed to being a sequential _stage),_ there shouldn't be a final "inverted" signal?...
 Would welcome your comments...


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see what the 6SN7 has to do with driving low impedance phones. The 6AS7s will be driving the phones.
> ...


 

 There are two amplifiers in a 6SN7.
 Unless it was paralleled or only using 1/2 that I seen done.
 One in sequence will have the right output then the 6AS7 is going to invert it.
  
 Ask this company if the output is in phase. They should know I hope.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> There are two amplifiers in a 6SN7.
> Unless it was paralleled or only using 1/2 that I seen done.
> One in sequence will have the right output then the 6AS7 is going to invert it.
> 
> Ask this company if the output is in phase. They should know I hope.


 
  
 Many thanks for your reply, 2359glenn - much appreciated. These guys do seem to really know what they're going...looks like they make some _really_ serious bespoke kit. I can't imagine they would _ever_ come up with something outputting _out_ of phase!... But yes, I shall get clarification from them...thanks again


----------



## rosgr63

Some amps use two 6SN7's but only 1/2 side of each 6SN7 is used to drive the power tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

rosgr63 said:


> Some amps use two 6SN7's but only 1/2 side of each 6SN7 is used to drive the power tubes.


 
  
 "Curiouser and curiouser"....I wonder what benefit there is then from using the two tubes as opposed to both triodes of just one?
  
 Mind you, if the Feliks guys also use just one triode, that will make it easier if I dare (at some time!) to adapt my C3GSs as replacements, lol!...(Shan't then need TWO per driver, of course!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## punit

I have a pair of Brimar CV 1988 which look like this :
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-NOS-CV1988-6SN7GTY-CV181-5692-6SN7GT-ECC32-Matched-Pair-/291234795068?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43cef24e3c
  
 I saw a Brimar CV 1988 on Upscale audio which looks like this:
  
 http://www.upscaleaudio.com/brimar-cv1988-6sn7gt/
  
 Are these the same ?


----------



## Skylab

Well they are obviously not exactly the same 

I have only every owned the black glass ones. I have seen the clear glass ones online, but that's it.


----------



## gibosi

I suggest you check out the 6SN7 ID page:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide
  
 Take a look at the top of the top mica on the smoked glass tubes. I suspect that you will see some sheetmetal structures extending above the mica. Not sure what these are, but I think they are heat radiators. The others you linked to are "version 2" on the 6SN7 ID page. I do not know if these sound different, but obviously the construction is slightly different.


----------



## Oskari

punit said:


> I have a pair of Brimar CV 1988 which look like this :
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-NOS-CV1988-6SN7GTY-CV181-5692-6SN7GT-ECC32-Matched-Pair-/291234795068?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43cef24e3c
> 
> ...


 
  
 I like to think of these as the STC type and the Brimar type. The first pair was made by the STC Oldway factory in Paignton and the second one by the Brimar Footscray factory in what is now the London Borough of Bexley.


----------



## rosgr63

The second pair come in different flavours.
 The O getter like those of Upscale Audio are they older ones.
  
 Here are some of the clear glass Brimars with and without the tensioners/coolers on top.


----------



## gibosi

And this appears to be essentially the same tube (without the tensioners/coolers) mounted in a different base.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi gibosi.
 The second tube has longer plates, if I remember well.
 Must check my stock to be 100% sure.


----------



## gibosi

Now that you mention it, I can clearly see this in the pictures. In your two pictures, the plates touch the top and bottom micas. In the picture I posted, there is a gap between the micas and the plates. So yet another Brimar variety, and one more detail to take into consideration.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

It is nice to see discussion  of Brimars here, from different sources with different constructions. Far too many here  just talk about Brimars not reasing there are many different types, something we do not sat with Sylvanias or Tung Sols. I am sure I have 'Brimars' with metal bases that came from the Hammersmoth MOV factor labelled CV1988. You can get black, brown (different shades) and bronze bases in addition to the metal ones. Glass can be clear, grey and black.......


----------



## punit

Maybe someone who has tried more than one version can confirm if these different versions of Brimar CV 1988 sound different ?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Nic, that's right.
 Here are a couple of mine with black plates.
 Also a rare black plates micanol base, with a pan getter.
  
 Punit, they do sound different.


----------



## Skylab

nic rhodes said:


> It is nice to see discussion  of Brimars here, from different sources with different constructions. Far too many here  just talk about Brimars not reasing there are many different types, something we do not sat with Sylvanias or Tung Sols. I am sure I have 'Brimars' with metal bases that came from the Hammersmoth MOV factor labelled CV1988. You can get black, brown (different shades) and bronze bases in addition to the metal ones. Glass can be clear, grey and black.......




Much if that is due to the fact that here in the US, Brimar tubes are quite rare. One can find them on eBay, yes, but one has to be very knowledgeable first, because there are definitely tubes that are labeled Brimar that were Russian made, and were late era export-only Brimar tubes. 

That said, the Brimar CV1988 black glass brown base KB/FE (STC Oldway) are among my favorite 6SN7 type tube.


----------



## kchew

On the subject of Brimar tubes, I'll try to find the time to do a shootout with what I have. I have the clear glass black base, clear glass brown base and black glass brown base. If I'm up to it I'll throw in the B65 (clear and grey glass) as well.


----------



## Silent One

@ kchew
  
 I really enjoy your shootouts!


----------



## gibosi

Received a Raytheon 6SN7W today, and I am happy to report that it lights up and plays. 
  
 Not sure when it was manufactured.  From "2809-38",  280 = Raytheon, so perhaps 9-38 might indicate 1949, week 38?


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tube, how does it sound?


----------



## Lorspeaker

gibosi said:


> Received a Raytheon 6SN7W today, and I am happy to report that it lights up and plays.
> 
> Not sure when it was manufactured.  From "2809-38",  280 = Raytheon, so perhaps 9-38 might indicate 1949, week 38?


 
  
  
 28th of Sept 1938


----------



## gibosi

According to the Wikipedia article on 6SN7:
  
"Originally released in 1939 it was officially registered in 1941 by RCA and Sylvania as the glass-cased *6SN7GT*, originally listed on page 235 of RCA's 1940 RC-14 Receiving Tube Manual....."
  
So 1938 is unlikely.....


----------



## Lorspeaker

yours must be one from the prototype trial runs...LOL


----------



## gibosi

rosgr63 said:


> Nice tube, how does it sound?


 
  
 Today's a bit crazy, so won't be able to spend significant time with it until the weekend....


----------



## gibosi

lorspeaker said:


> yours must be one from the prototype trial runs...LOL


 
  
 Sure... of course!  lol...
  
 But seriously, last digit of the year plus two digits indicating the week was a very common dating format in American tubes of this era. It seems that they never envisioned that these tubes would be in production for more than 10 years. In the later tubes it is more common to see two digits for the year to help distinguish between the decades....


----------



## Silent One

gibosi said:


> Received a Raytheon 6SN7W today, and I am happy to report that it lights up and plays.
> 
> Not sure when it was manufactured.  From "2809-38",  280 = Raytheon, so perhaps 9-38 might indicate 1949, week 38?


 
 Congrats! I have a pair of 'Rays" 6SN7W's. I think my date codes suggested 1949. Next time I trip over them, I'll have look. I enjoyed this glass.


----------



## rosgr63

I think that these shiny type plates and brown bases were used at a later date, after 1949.


----------



## Neogeo333

Talking about shiny plates, anyone know if any 6sn7 had silver plates like some 12au7?


----------



## GrindingThud

Yep...edit, these r labelled incorrectly, but I swear I've seen them and tried to snarf on ebay......:
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/GE+6SN7GT+Silver+Plate+Short+Bottle+-+USA.jpg.html


----------



## Neogeo333

Thanks GT, but is it me or does it says 6SL7 GT on the tube?  They look like 6sl7 plates too.


----------



## GrindingThud

Yes, the picture is labelled incorrectly, but I have seen some on ebay that were silver....never could snag any but tried. Looking to see if any are listed now.



neogeo333 said:


> Thanks GT, but is it me or does it says 6SL7 GT on the tube?  They look like 6sl7 plates too.


----------



## Neogeo333

If you look at there 6sl7 you'll find a few.  I have some Seimens 12au7 with silver plates and compared to other 12au7 they sound kind of on the bright side.  Didnt much like them.  Hope the GE 6sn7 is nothing like that.  Good hunting GT.


----------



## gibosi

rosgr63 said:


> I think that these shiny type plates and brown bases were used at a later date, after 1949.


 
  
 Well of course, there is no way I can know for sure...   
  
 But assuming that the date code is 9-38 (and that assumption may well be wrong).... 
  
 My thinking was, first of all, the construction reminds me of the Sylvania 6SN7W with the "umbrella spokes" attached to the top mica and the top getter, which suggests that they might have been manufactured about the same time. And then, the text and graphics: "USN-CRP" is characteristic of the 1940's I believe, and later, "JAN-CRP" was the norm. And also, the Army Signal Corp graphic suggests the 1940's as I don't recall seeing it on later tubes.
  
 But again, this is just a guess on my part...


----------



## Skylab

There were "silver" plate Ken-Rad 6SN7GTs also. Not really silver of course, but silver color.


----------



## rosgr63

Is that nickel plates?


----------



## Skylab

rosgr63 said:


> Is that nickel plates?




Yes I believe you're right, the actual metal is nickel.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> But again, this is just a guess on my part...


 
  
 Somehow I'd expect to see 6SN7W*GT* in 1959, like these:
  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-6SN7WGT-date-matched-pair-NOS-NIB-/271571560288
  
 Just another guess…


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> Somehow I'd expect to see 6SN7W*GT* in 1959, like these:
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-6SN7WGT-date-matched-pair-NOS-NIB-/271571560288
> ...


 
  
 I'd say that this is much more than a guess. 
  
 It is interesting that my tube is labeled 6SN7W, and not 6SNWGT.... But the tubes in your link appear to be identical to mine, and rosgr63's observation that shiny plates and brown bases appeared later than 1949 clinches it. So I think there is no doubt that mine were manufactured in 1959 as well.
  
 I can always count on you guys! Thanks much!


----------



## rosgr63

skylab said:


> Yes I believe you're right, the actual metal is nickel.


 

 Indeed, I have other tube types with nickel plates so I assume they used the same material for the 6SN7.
  
 gibosi, I am guessing the date looking at the construction, I could be wrong.


----------



## Oskari

rosgr63 said:


> gibosi, I am guessing the date looking at the construction, I could be wrong.


 
  
 And I may or may not have said, in a roundabout way, that gibosi's tube could be a 49 because it's not a WGT, just a W. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But what do I know?


----------



## rosgr63

oskari said:


> And I may or may not have said, in a roundabout way, that gibosi's tube could be a 49 because it's not a WGT, just a W.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I you don't know Oskari, then we have no hope................at least I don't


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> And I may or may not have said, in a roundabout way, that gibosi's tube could be a 49 because it's not a WGT, just a W.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 On closer inspection, it appears that Raytheon marketed this tube as both a 6SN7W and a 6SN7WGT. The actual labeling on the base likely depended on the end user. So this is, in fact, a WGT and therefore, a manufacturing date of 1959 makes sense.


----------



## Silent One

Maybe a different rod inside or an additional rod?


----------



## Silent One

@ gibosi
  
 1 Ray only has 'W' marked and the other one matched to it from another batch only denotes WGT, no dual markings on mine.


----------



## Oskari

Stavros, I'll be the first to admit that this here is not among my strong points. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Gibosi, your reasoning makes sense.


----------



## Silent One

I frequently drive past the Raytheon buildings near LAX. I should call/write and virtually poke around to see what I can turn up.


----------



## gibosi

@ Silent One
  
 Just when I thought everything was all wrapped up neat and tidy! lol
  
 One could speculate that in the early years, this tube was marketed as a 6SN7W and in later years, as a 6SN7WGT. And in the middle period, it was marketed as both, depending on the end user. So perhaps you have an early one and a late one, and I have a middle one? But this is just a WAGuess.


----------



## Silent One

gibosi said:


> @ Silent One
> 
> Just when I thought everything was all wrapped up neat and tidy! lol
> 
> One could speculate that in the early years, this tube was marketed as a 6SN7W and in later years, as a 6SN7WGT. And in the middle period, it was marketed as both, depending on the end user. So perhaps you have an early one and a late one, and I have a middle one? But this is just a WAGuess.


 





 With the Nation having much bigger Catfish in the Deep-fryer at the time, and all the suppliers scrambling to make, sale, supply glass however they could, it's a wonder they kept the few records they did. And when the solid state horizon loomed closer, many no longer cared.
  
 It'll be fun to see what I could dig up...perhaps a "Guest" badge and lunch in the corporate cafeteria.


----------



## Badas

Hi,
  
 I got a new WA22 last week and I have been rolling some tubes as I break it in.
  
 This is my current tubes:
  

  
 I switched stock power tubes for the Woo supplied Tung Sol 7236 and the stock Rectifier for the fantastic Mullard GZ32 (this has made the biggest difference). So far it has made a big improvement. Power tubes a lot more power and Rectifier just Wow.
  
 My question is what is this Driver tube supplied by Woo. It came in a Woo box pictured below and is labeled 6SN7 GTB. Is it any good or rubbish?
  


  
 In the meantime I ordered this:
  

  
 Sylvania 6SN7GTB. However from your guys comments it sounds like I made a mistake.
  
 Thanks in advance. Dono.


----------



## Skylab

The only mistake you made is that you ordered the same tube you already have 

Sylvania 6SN7GTB is a perfectly good tube. Not the greatest 6SN7 there is but far from the worst. Very balanced.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> The only mistake you made is that you ordered the same tube you already have
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  





 So the one I already have in the amp is a Sylvania. Is it new or old? Is it even worth changing when I get the other Sylvania 6SN7GTB NOS I purchased?
  
 I still find my setup just that little too bright. I'm a daaaaark kinda guy. What 6SN7 should I choose if I wanted very little high end frequency?
  
 I don't want to do that whole 6F8G adapter thingy.


----------



## Skylab

If you want something a bit more mellow, then try an RCA "grey-glass" 6SN7GT.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> If you want something a bit more mellow, then try an RCA "grey-glass" 6SN7GT.


 
  
 Thanks heaps.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> If you want something a bit more mellow, then try an RCA "grey-glass" 6SN7GT.


 

 Like this one?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matched-Pair-RCA-USA-6SN7GT-Black-Flat-Plate-BTM-Get-Smoked-Vacuum-Tubes-/121426122033?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c458f9531


----------



## Skylab

Yup, them's those.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> Yup, them's those.


 
  
 Sold then. Thanks.
  
 Should I roll those Sylvania's I have coming or not bother?


----------



## punit

Another tube to consider if you like smooth highs is the Brimar CV 1988 (brown base). Of course the power tubes also play a role in making the sound smoother. Mullard 6080's are quite smooth.


----------



## Silent One

silent one said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > Received a Raytheon 6SN7W today, and I am happy to report that it lights up and plays.
> ...


 
 Had a look tonight..."2809-52."


----------



## Skylab

52nd week of 1959? I guess it could be 49 but for some reason I recall the WGT being a bit later than 49.


----------



## gibosi

Your thinking agrees with that of Oskari and rosgr63, and given this sage consensus, I would wager that 1959 is the most likely year of manufacture.


----------



## Silent One

The date code is for the 6SN7W, though I do have a WGT as well but no date code. I think the Ray's brought a lot of bang for its price.


----------



## Skylab

In Raytheon's parlance, 6SN7W = 6SN7WGT. Which kind of goes without saying, as the GT is the tube style, and it is pre "A" or "B" "improvements". That said, when one considers Sylvania, the ones labeled as WGT were always brown base, and the W never were. Raytheon W tubes are always brown base.

And I totally agree, SO, those Raytheon tubes are outstanding. I still have quite a few even though I have been trying to cut my 6SN7 stash down to about 100, plus or minus.


----------



## SpudHarris

All this talk has me curious. I have had these for a while, are they supposed to be anything special?




Will give them some air time tonight.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Rob,
 The Sylvania W short bottle are one of my favourites.
 Most come with black base, but I have one with a brown base too.


----------



## Skylab

Hi Stavros,

That's funny...I have a few like that too! I just thought of them as being WGT. But you're right...they are not labeled as such.


----------



## Badas

Any opinions on the RAYTHEON 6SN7GTB???
  
 There seems to be plenty available at good prices on ebay.


----------



## Rico613

rosgr63 said:


> Hi Rob,
> The Sylvania W short bottle are one of my favourites.
> Most come with black base, but I have one with a brown base too.


 
  
 Yup, I like these.


----------



## Skylab

badas said:


> Any opinions on the RAYTHEON 6SN7GTB???
> 
> There seems to be plenty available at good prices on ebay.




I haven't hear that particular variant but I have some Raytheon 6SN7GTB with black plated with a taller bottle that sound truly excellent and were very inexpensive. I stocked up on those!!!


----------



## Nic Rhodes

My earliest Sylvanias 6SN7W (GT) are black bases from 1945 from my records (in GE military boxes). There were the metal ones earlier from Sylvania. Most of my Sylvania 6SN7WGT (note different marking) are brown based starting early 50s which they seem to have made for 20+ years until the latest black based 6SN7WGTA eventually made under PhilipsECG in the end well into the mid 80s. All my 'Tung Sol' 6SN7WGTs / 6180s have that distinctive shinny black box triangular anode also but on a light brown base .


----------



## Badas

john57 said:


> I agree with Glenn that the Svetlana 6N13 is a good dependable tube and have used the Svetlana brand in my big QuickSliver mono blocks without problems.


 
  
  


nic rhodes said:


> Another fan of the Svetlana 6N13 here  just don't tell too many people please


 
  
 Can they be used in a 6SN7 amp? Like the Woo WA22. Very nice looking tube.


----------



## mcandmar

6N13 = 6AS7G
  
 I agree with the above, the Svetlana 6N13 is a very nice tube, zero noise or microphonic issues, and mine tested perfectly balanced between sections too.


----------



## Badas

mcandmar said:


> 6N13 = 6AS7G
> 
> I agree with the above, the Svetlana 6N13 is a very nice tube, zero noise or microphonic issues, and mine tested perfectly balanced between sections too.




6AS7. The Woo WA22 manual says it can use those as a power tube. At those prices and looks it might be worth a go.


----------



## punit

It is, I just got mine.


----------



## Badas

punit said:


> It is, I just got mine.




Have you thrown them in as a power tube on the WA22?

I just purchased 12 of them.


----------



## punit

Tried them on Glenn OTL amp.Not tried them on WA22 yet, will do so tonight. Why 12 ?


----------



## Badas

punit said:


> Tried them on Glenn OTL amp.Not tried them on WA22 yet, will do so tonight. Why 12 ? :eek:




I'm in New Zealand so no tubes at all down here plus costs a fortune to ship. So I stock up. Probably won't need power tubes again if they work out. So to me that is a good score.

Damn nice of ya if you can test on WA22. I don't see a problem tho. Congrats on that Glenn OTL. What a amp.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> I'm in New Zealand so no tubes at all down here plus costs a fortune to ship. So I stock up. Probably won't need power tubes again if they work out. So to me that is a good score.


 
  
 Not so. It might be at the end of the world, but it still gets some tube action.
  
 Turned on Audio in Onehunga has a line on a range of tubes (including Psvane replica WE300Bs at reasonable prices).
  
 Audio Reference Co has a range of 300Bs for sale, including the Ayon tubes that I have never heard of before. I have just ordered a pair of EAT 300Bs from these folks.
  
 Both also have a bunch of driver tubes available. These are just the sellers in Auckland I know about. There are bound to be more if you look.


----------



## jt211

Hi,
 I'm just get two new 12SN7 tubes.
 Philips gray glass 12SN7GT .
 Fivre side getter 12SN7GTA.
 The codes on Philips are OKN 4F.
 Can anyone tell me me where and when this tubes is made ?
 Are identical for this :
http://www.tubes.rs/6SN7GT_Philips_Holland_Eindhoven/
 Regards
 Jozef


----------



## Oskari

jt211 said:


> The codes on Philips are OKN 4F.
> Can anyone tell me me where and when this tubes is made ?


 
  
 0KN 4F: 12SN7GT Philips Eindhoven June 1954


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> Not so. It might be at the end of the world, but it still gets some tube action.
> 
> Turned on Audio in Onehunga has a line on a range of tubes (including Psvane replica WE300Bs at reasonable prices).
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the info. I have been checking them out on-line. I will call in a visit them as well.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> Thanks for the info. I have been checking them out on-line. I will call in a visit them as well.


 
  
 Neil in Onehuna is a very helpful fellow, as is Terry from Audio Reference. Both have been great to deal with for me. It's worth making contact with them as they often have stock and/or specials that aren't advertised on the website. Good luck.


----------



## Xcalibur255

punit said:


> Tried them on Glenn OTL amp.Not tried them on WA22 yet, will do so tonight. Why 12 ?


 

 Did you like them in the OTL?  I always avoided this tube because it had a reputation for being veiled.  But I could run the pants off of it using the bias setting for the 5998 and it might sound good that way.


----------



## punit

Yes, sounds quite nice on Glenn's OTL & WA22, very smooth. The treble is not as extended, as say with the TS 5998 / WE 421A or GEC 6AS7G, but with the right Rec + Driver combination does not sound veiled. In fact people who have problem with HD 800 / T1 treble will quite like this tube for its smoothness. & Yes, treble sounds bit more extended with the switch on 5998 bias setting (My Otl has a switch for 6AS7 & 5998 bias setting).


----------



## mcandmar

The 5998, 421a, and 2399 are a different family of tubes so it isn't really fare to compare them.  I dont find them veiled at all, they are way better than the RCA's in that respect. The only 6AS7 that i find better is the GEC, buts its also 10 times the price of the Svetlana.


----------



## IndieGradoFan

Any thoughts on the Sophia 6SN7 vs the CV181-Z Shuguang Treasures for a WA22? I'm running CV181-Z with Tung-Sol 7236 and Sophia Princess mesh plate. I got my BTs from http://www.ebay.com/itm/220860592075?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT but I'm intrigued by the Sophia 6SN7s. I know the Brimars are generally held in higher regards, but I'm not interested in those.


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://pacifictv.ca/pixs/eiatubecodelist.pdf
  
 a list of the brand codes


----------



## rosgr63

Very handy reference for sure.


----------



## Stereolab42

indiegradofan said:


> Any thoughts on the Sophia 6SN7 vs the CV181-Z Shuguang Treasures for a WA22? I'm running CV181-Z with Tung-Sol 7236 and Sophia Princess mesh plate. I got my BTs from http://www.ebay.com/itm/220860592075?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT but I'm intrigued by the Sophia 6SN7s. I know the Brimars are generally held in higher regards, but I'm not interested in those.


 
  
 The Sophia 6SN7 is great on the WA22. There are surely NOS tubes for the same price that are just as good, but like to feel I'm supporting a modern tube producer who's quickly figuring out how to match the old stuff in quality. Because eventually the old stuff will run out...


----------



## Badas

stereolab42 said:


> The Sophia 6SN7 is great on the WA22. There are surely NOS tubes for the same price that are just as good, but like to feel I'm supporting a modern tube producer who's quickly figuring out how to match the old stuff in quality. Because eventually the old stuff will run out...


 
  
 A nice looking tube as well.


----------



## TonyNewman

stereolab42 said:


> The Sophia 6SN7 is great on the WA22. There are surely NOS tubes for the same price that are just as good, but like to feel I'm supporting a modern tube producer who's quickly figuring out how to match the old stuff in quality. Because eventually the old stuff will run out...


 
  
 +1. If this hobby has a future, it is with new production.


----------



## Badas

Curious about this tube 6SJ7GT Sylvania
  

  
 Very nice looking tube. No idea what it sounds like tho. Or if it works as a driver tube in a 6SN7 amp.


----------



## Skylab

badas said:


> Curious about this tube 6SJ7GT Sylvania
> 
> Very nice looking tube. No idea what it sounds like tho. Or if it works as a driver tube in a 6SN7 amp.




It's absolutely nothing like a 6SN7. The 6SJ7 is a sharp-cutoff pentode, whereas the 6SN7 is a dual-triode. 

If you put a 6SJ7 in an amp designed for a 6SN7, you won't get sound, but you might get a very spectacular pyrotechnics show.



Maybe a bit of a review/warning is needed. Here is what you can always safely use in an amp that calls for a 6SN7:

6SN7GT, 6SN7GTA, 6SN7GTB, 6SN7W, 6SN7WGT, 6SN7WGTA, 6SN7GTY, CV1988, VT-231, 5692. 

There are amps made which will allow some cousins like the 6SL7/5691/VT-229/6SU7, and even a few that will allow the 6BL7. But one MUST check with the amp maker first. Same with the UK CV181/ECC32 and ECC33 - many times OK but you need to check with the amp maker first. 

There are adapters made that will allow the use of a 6F8G, and a 6CG7 (two different adapters). 

That's pretty much it, folks.


----------



## Badas

I seriously want to dull down my amp. I should explain a bit better. I want to roll of the treble. A lot. I'm not a fan of high treble.
  
 I don't really want to effect soundstage, mid range or bass.
  
 If I was going to do this what top 3 6SN7 type tubes would members recommend?
  
 Please give me ya top 3 rolled or lazy treble tubes?
  
 Dono


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> I seriously want to dull down my amp. I should explain a bit better. I want to roll of the treble. A lot. I'm not a fan of high treble.
> 
> I don't really want to effect soundstage, mid range or bass.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just curious - do you have a rough idea how many hours you have on your (new) amp?
  
 Reason I ask is that amps tend to mellow out significantly in the first 100 to 150 hours in my (limited) experience. If you haven't clocked at least that much runtime on your amp I would suggest waiting a while - you might be trying to fix a problem that goes away by itself.


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> Just curious - do you have a rough idea how many hours you have on your (new) amp?
> 
> Reason I ask is that amps tend to mellow out significantly in the first 100 to 150 hours in my (limited) experience. If you haven't clocked at least that much runtime on your amp I would suggest waiting a while - you might be trying to fix a problem that goes away by itself.


 

 Yeah, I get what you are saying. My amp and tubes are very very young.
  
 However I cringe. Treble is so high. I am very sensitive to treble. The whole system would have to drop 30% for my taste and I can't see it doing that.
  
 So I would rather have a list of tubes to hunt down now and get early so I can start breaking them in.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> Yeah, I get what you are saying. My amp and tubes are very very young.
> 
> However I cringe. Treble is so high. I am very sensitive to treble. The whole system would have to drop 30% for my taste and I can't see it doing that.
> 
> So I would rather have a list of tubes to hunt down now and get early so I can start breaking them in.


 
 Gotcha - I get it


----------



## Stereolab42

Badas, you need to use software EQ if you need to drop the treble by that much. Good amps and good tubes are specifically designed not to do what you're asking.


----------



## Badas

stereolab42 said:


> Badas, you need to use software EQ if you need to drop the treble by that much. Good amps and good tubes are specifically designed not to do what you're asking.


 

 Yeah, I can't do that. I'm not using a computer. iPod and Oppo Blu-ray player for CD/SACD/DVD Audio only.


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> Yeah, I can't do that. I'm not using a computer. iPod and Oppo Blu-ray player for CD/SACD/DVD Audio only.


 
  
 Bummer. You need to go completely PC audio like many have. Or use this:
  
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MassivePassive


----------



## Neogeo333

Or try cables that are known to have a warm sound.  Use copper cables as it tend to sound warmer than silver cables.  Like other have said only a software eq is the other solution.  
  
 Of tubes that I know sounds warmer sound signature are Ken Rad black glass, VR102, Mullard ECC32 those come to mind.


----------



## Badas

neogeo333 said:


> Or try cables that are known to have a warm sound.  Use copper cables as it tend to sound warmer than silver cables.  Like other have said only a software eq is the other solution.
> 
> Of tubes that I know sounds warmer sound signature are Ken Rad black glass, VR102, Mullard ECC32 those come to mind.


 

 Excellent suggestions. Copper cables aye. Thanks.
  
 I'm going to put those tubes on my wishlist also.
  
 Hey if I dropped the treble 10% I would be a lot happier.


----------



## Neogeo333

If you want a really warm cable signature sound,  try to get some vintage Western Electric wires for diy rca cables.  Some mentioned that those really sound warm.


----------



## Lorspeaker

add another foam layer over your headfone drivers.


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> add another foam layer over your headfone drivers.


 

 I was wondering about that. Does it work?
  
 Would it effect other things? Soundstage etc....


----------



## Lorspeaker

it will take off the highs...n puts u into a deep slumber.. relaxxx....sleeep....peace....chill.


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> it will take off the highs...n puts u into a deep slumber.. relaxxx....sleeep....peace....chill.


 
  
 Okay. I will give that a go. Plenty of space in the Audeze to insert in the ear cups.


----------



## punit

I was doing some research on what will be the ultimate 6SN7 Addict's amp. & I think it will be this :
  
 https://www.cavalliaudio.com/index.php?p=product_details&pId=1
  
 Does anyone have any other contenders (amps which use 6sn7's as primary / main tubes , like this one    http://www.iconaudio.com/portfolio-item/icon-audio-hp8-mkii/  ) ?


----------



## gibosi

punit said:


> I was doing some research on what will be the ultimate 6SN7 Addict's amp. & I think it will be this :
> 
> https://www.cavalliaudio.com/index.php?p=product_details&pId=1


 
  
 In my opinion, Glenn's OTL with a 6/12/25V heater switch is a strong contender for the "Ultimate 6SN7 Addict's Amp".
  
 But then, I currently have what could be considered a poor-man's Liquid Glass Hybrid: a modified Little Dot 1+. Like the Liquid Glass, the LD is a hybrid, but with rollable op amps in the SS section. While designed to run two triodes (actually, two triode-strapped pentodes), I have added a 9-pin breadboard socket and a continuously adjustable (up to 25V at 4.5A) DC heater circuit. Granted that I need to use pin-adapters to correctly reroute pins, but I can roll all the tubes Cavalli lists for the Liquid Glass, and more. For example, I have used 8CG7, 9AQ8, 25SN7, 7963, C3g and tubes from the 5687/6900/7044/7119 family. I have even ran a 6AS7 as a driver. lol. And the total cost of the LD1+ plus mods was less than $200!
  
 But if all one wants to do is roll 6SN7's, and perhaps 12SN7's and 25SN7's, I would suggest that Glenn's OTL is the ultimate 6SN7 addicts amp, for a quarter of the cost of a Liquid Glass. And again, with pin-adapters, it should be possible to roll all the tubes listed for the Liquid Glass. (The only one I am not sure of is the 12AT7, which might have too much gain: 60.)


----------



## rosgr63

Right my Glenn's GR Super 10 can use 8 6SN7's for output and a 6SN7/12SN7/25SN7 driver, including some of the ECC derivatives.


----------



## whirlwind

Man....I can't wait to get my hands on  Glenn's  OTL !


----------



## 2359glenn

rosgr63 said:


> Right my Glenn's GR Super 10 can use 8 6SN7's for output and a 6SN7/12SN7/25SN7 driver, including some of the ECC derivatives.


 
  
 Now that has to be the ultimate 6SN7 amp can run on all 6SN7s.
 Don't forget six 6BL7s for outputs for the best sound. 
 I just got Amine a set of 6BL7s for spars and going to give him some rectifiers 5R4G and 5AW4 to try.


----------



## Badas

Hands off please? Unless ya were already looking then it's fair game.
  
 Any thoughts on these tubes? I don't really find much info. Raytheon 6SN7 WGT Chrome tops.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/171477427611?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## punit

rosgr63 said:


> Right my Glenn's GR Super 10 can use 8 6SN7's for output and a 6SN7/12SN7/25SN7 driver, including some of the ECC derivatives.


 

 Very Nice. Do all the 8 6SN7's have to be matched ? Is this an OTL amp ? Does it use a Rectifier tube ?


----------



## 2359glenn

punit said:


> rosgr63 said:
> 
> 
> > Right my Glenn's GR Super 10 can use 8 6SN7's for output and a 6SN7/12SN7/25SN7 driver, including some of the ECC derivatives.
> ...


 

 No the output tubes don't have to be matched.
 It uses the same transformer and rectifier as your amp.
 Sounds best with 6BL7s but it can use the 6AS7 and all it's variants also the 6336.
 Yes it is a OTL.
  

  
 With 6BL7s
  

  
 With 6AS7s


----------



## rosgr63

Glenn it can take 4 6AS7G's and all the fancy U52 rectifiers.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Very nice.


----------



## gibosi

Recently, I have noticed a number of these Tung-Sol 6SN7GT's with black glass, square top mica and flat black plates on eBay, and the other day, I stumbled across one listed as a "Mouse Ear" for $22 BIN.
  
 It arrived in today's mail and I am pleased to report that it lights up and plays.


----------



## Lorspeaker

why was the glass blacken?


----------



## Skylab

The coating to darken glass in a tube was an additional method of shielding.


----------



## Badas

I've found it. It was suggested that I use the RCA grey glass to tame my treble. Well it has. Very happy. I've listened to my most difficult treble album. Sounded great. Not harsh at all. Tube also has nice bass extension and mid-range. Loses a bit of soundstage tho. I now have the sound signaturei I was looking for.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> If you want something a bit more mellow, then try an RCA "grey-glass" 6SN7GT.




Thanks so much for the recommendation. Ya were spot on. I owe ya one.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Adding to the above post. I really like the RCA 6SN7GT Greyglass sound and I am trying to find more. Not really good examples on e-bay at the moment. Is the RCA 6SN7GT clear glass similar sounding as there are plenty available? Or is that a totally different beast?


----------



## gibosi

On the chance you haven't seen these threads, I think you might find them useful:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 Many believe that tubes manufactured during the 1940's are best. However, I suggest you get several pairs, early to late, and decide for yourself.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> On the chance you haven't seen these threads, I think you might find them useful:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great guides. I'm now learning the different parts to look for. Thanks it will help a lot. Learning new stuff everyday from this site and great members.


----------



## Lorspeaker

badas said:


> Great guides. I'm now learning the different parts to look for. Thanks it will help a lot. Learning new stuff everyday from this site and great members.


 
http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/
  
 another article for a little perspective... 
  
 ================================================
 edit : if u have time for a nite read, check the 3 articles to the right of the above page..
 http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/tube-family-tree-part-1/


----------



## Badas

I think I will be in the habit of changing 6SN7 type tubes. Would this tube saver be okay to use?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/CED-ST8-1000-VACUUM-TUBE-8-PIN-OCTAL-SOCKET-SAVER-for-6L6-6V6-6SN7-EL34-/150688246271?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2315b829ff


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> I think I will be in the habit of changing 6SN7 type tubes. Would this tube saver be okay to use?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CED-ST8-1000-VACUUM-TUBE-8-PIN-OCTAL-SOCKET-SAVER-for-6L6-6V6-6SN7-EL34-/150688246271?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2315b829ff


 
  
 Hell no, those look exactly like the cheap ones I bought that were full of shorts. I have these gold and ceramic ones on order, they look very nice so I have high hopes:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191109289479?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 For 9-pin savers (WA6-SE), I can recommend these:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371136795417?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Badas

stereolab42 said:


> Hell no, those look exactly like the cheap ones I bought that were full of shorts. I have these gold and ceramic ones on order, they look very nice so I have high hopes:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/191109289479?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...




Thanks Dude. I ordered 7 of them. I will keep a couple of spares.


----------



## Blueshound24

I just picked up an Icon Audio HP8 MkII amp which uses a pair of 6sn7's and one 12ax7. Anybody have any 6sn7 recommendations for it to pair with my LCD 2.2 fazors?
  
 It came with the stock tubes, David Shaw CV181's (which does not impress me too much). It also came with a pair of NOS Silvertone 6sn7's, flat grey plates, side getter, (I think they are rebranded GE's), IMO these are too rolled off in the trebles.
  
 I appreciate slightly warm, musical, natural, sparkly extended highs, slamming bass, big soundstage with good imaging signature. My musical tastes are quite diverse including the Blues, Jazz, Rock, acoustic, Alternative, Classical, singer/songwriter, and Avantgarde among others.
  
 Thanks for any recommendations!


----------



## Lorspeaker

what 12ax7s do u have? u tried swapping those?


----------



## Blueshound24

It came with a Chinese 12ax7, which was harsh and unrefined, as well as a Bell & Howell which was too rolled off in the highs and boring, imo. I bought a 1958 NOS GE with black plates and triple micas which brought more life to it with more slamming bass and extended highs. But I believe it has the potential to deliver more goods


----------



## Blueshound24

lorspeaker said:


> what 12ax7s do u have? u tried swapping those?


 
  
 1958 GE black plates with triple micas added much needed life and energy to the Icon and I think the Silvertones are the weak link now.


----------



## Lorspeaker

u didnt like the 50pounds David Shaw tubes? 
  
 The most spacious 6SN7s i have is the PSVANE CV181-Tii, doesnt come cheap.
 http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-tii-pair/

  
  
 ANother black horse is the inexpensive russian 6N8S, i tried it yesterday...
 slightly brighter, but surprisingly spacious on my DV336se. 
 Dun know how these will sound on your ICON...others might wanna chip in.


----------



## TonyNewman

> The most spacious 6SN7s i have is the PSVANE CV181-Tii, doesnt come cheap. http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-tii-pair/


 
  
 Available much, much cheaper direct from China via Ebay:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251170137281?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Same tube, but perhaps not quite as much QA happening. I did have one of these babies blow on me.


----------



## Blueshound24

lorspeaker said:


> u didnt like the 50pounds David Shaw tubes?
> 
> The most spacious 6SN7s i have is the PSVANE CV181-Tii, doesnt come cheap.
> http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-tii-pair/
> ...


 

 What would be the differences between the PSVANE CV181-Tii and Shuguang black Treasure CV181z? In addition, how would something like a USA Tung Sol 6sn7 GTB compare?


----------



## BALANCEATOR

lorspeaker said:


> u didnt like the 50pounds David Shaw tubes?
> 
> The most spacious 6SN7s i have is the PSVANE CV181-Tii, doesnt come cheap.
> http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-tii-pair/
> ...


 
  
  
 These valves David Shaw of Icon Audio are a psvane. They sound very similar to Full Music 6SN7.por less value.


----------



## Lorspeaker

blueshound24 said:


> What would be the differences between the *PSVANE CV181-Tii* and Shuguang black Treasure CV181z?* In addition, how would something like a USA Tung Sol 6sn7 GTB compare?*


 
  

  
 The Tungsol has a more rounded bass punch, vs a more textured punch of the Psvane...
 Psvane sounded more spacious... airier. SLightly better realism if u are into listening for microdetails.
 If u are listening to small jazz/pop music, i guess the Tungsol should suffice.
  
  

  
 I tested out the Russian 6N8S...it sounded closer to the Psvane, than the Tungsol.
  
 Psvane...6N8S..........................Tungsol.
  
 ( listened thru a DV336se)
  
 ====
  
 a treat listening to this album on the 6N8S...(stock up on this soviet gem)


----------



## Blueshound24

Maybe I'll give the David Shaw CV181's a whirl again. They never had many hours on them and maybe they need some burn-in time. I also have a pair of USA Tung Sol 6sn7's on the way from Andy at Vintage Tube Services to compare.
  
 So would you say the David Shaw, PSVANE CV181-Tii and Shuguang black Treasure CV181z are similar signatures and how is their durability/lifespan?


----------



## Blueshound24

balanceator said:


> These valves *David Shaw of Icon Audio are a psvane*. They sound very similar to Full Music 6SN7.por less value.


 
  
  


blueshound24 said:


> Maybe I'll give the David Shaw CV181's a whirl again. They never had many hours on them and maybe they need some burn-in time. I also have a pair of USA Tung Sol 6sn7's on the way from Andy at Vintage Tube Services to compare.
> 
> So would you say the *David Shaw, PSVANE CV181-Tii *and *Shuguang black Treasure CV181z *are similar signatures and how is their durability/lifespan?


 
  
 Well if the David Shaw is the Psvane, how do they compare with the Shuguang CV181z? I think through a little burning in, the David Shaw's soundstage is really starting to open up and the trebles becoming more refined
  
  
 Balanceator do you mean they sound very similar to Full Music 6sn7 for less money?  


> "They sound very similar to Full Music 6SN7.por less value."


----------



## SpudHarris

Just a quick snap in the dark whilst listening to the PSVANE's .....




I have many 6SN7's, most of which are expensive boutique tubes. I come back to these because (a) they sound amazing in the HP8 and (b) there is some comfort knowing the history, I've owned them from new so have a general ideal that they will last and probably get better as time goes by. No such guarantees with so called NOS Bad Boys or Tung-sol BGRP.... I have them and the differences are just that, differences. Although, I have to say the TSBGRP has something that no modern equivalent seems to capture fully.

For the money I consider the PSVANE a bargain, certainly the best modern equivalent I have tried and at a fraction of the cost of the dying breeds.


----------



## TonyNewman

spudharris said:


> ....
> 
> For the money I consider the PSVANE a bargain, certainly the best modern equivalent I have tried and at a fraction of the cost of the dying breeds.


 
  
 +1. Great extension and detail, just perhaps lacking a little warmth or musicality. Sounds a touch more solid state than tube?


----------



## Blueshound24

spudharris said:


> Just a quick snap in the dark whilst listening to the PSVANE's .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey SpudHarris, I recently acquired an Icon HP8 and looking forward to rolling some different tubes. Do you or anyone else know if the cheaper Psvane's on eBay are good tubes or should one go through someone like Grant Fidelity?


----------



## TonyNewman

blueshound24 said:


> Hey SpudHarris, I recently acquired an Icon HP8 and looking forward to rolling some different tubes. Do you or anyone else know if the cheaper Psvane's on eBay are good tubes or should one go through someone like Grant Fidelity?


 
  
 I have bought 6 Psvane T2 CV-181s via Ebay @ $170 per matched pair (premium grade).
  
 Of the 6, one blew about 20 hours into burn in, the other 5 have been rock solid. Maybe the extra QA at Grant Fidelity would have picked that up, or the pair replaced under warranty - not sure.
  
 I do know the price difference is not small.


----------



## Blueshound24

tonynewman said:


> I have bought 6 Psvane T2 CV-181s via Ebay @ $170 per matched pair (premium grade).
> 
> Of the 6, one blew about 20 hours into burn in, the other 5 have been rock solid. Maybe the extra QA at Grant Fidelity would have picked that up, or the pair replaced under warranty - not sure.
> 
> I do know the price difference is not small.


 
  
 Would you mind sharing the ebay vendor you purchased from, or one you recommend?, or pm me?
  
 Or... if my David Shaw CV181 is actually the same as Psvane I may already have it with my HP8, and it will only improve upon burn-in?


----------



## TonyNewman

blueshound24 said:


> Would you mind sharing the ebay vendor you purchased from, or one you recommend?, or pm me?


 
  
 No problem. I have purchased a bunch of different tunes from these folks (6SN7/CV181s/300Bs/274Bs). Found them quite good.
  
http://stores.ebay.com/hsaliencehifiaudio/


----------



## Blueshound24

tonynewman said:


> No problem. I have purchased a bunch of different tunes from these folks (6SN7/CV181s/300Bs/274Bs). Found them quite good.
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com/hsaliencehifiaudio/


 
  
 Thanks! I think I'll email Icon Audio and see where they source their David Shaw CV181's that ship with the HP8. A few posts above, Balanceator said they are Psvanes.


----------



## Lorspeaker

since your David SHaw is waking up...just be patient, give it another 50hours n decide again.


----------



## naimless

The Icon Audio website has a section selling tubes for all their amps.Also I think the David Shaw psvane tubes are the upgraded ones for the Signature Edition of the HP8 amp,I'm not sure what the standard ones are.


----------



## SpudHarris

I bought the PSVANE's from a UK supplier but can't recall who :rolleyes: will look it up though....

The stock HP8 comes with Shuguang 6SN7's which are not too bad if you are starting out but they are way below the PSVANE's.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The best upgrade for the HP8 is dropping a Genalex B759 in the driver socket.  The David Shaw 6SN7s are fine as they are.
  
 http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/12AX7-ECC83-Tube-Types/Genalex-Gold-Lion-ECC83-B759
  
 This tube was a clear step up in resolution and tonal balance from every NOS 12AX7 and 5751 tube I have heard.  For 6SN7s I think the journey is not over, the NOS tubes have a lot to offer that isn't captured by new production tubes, but if you need a 12AX7 IMO your journey can end with this tube.


----------



## SpudHarris

xcalibur255 said:


> The best upgrade for the HP8 is dropping a Genalex B759 in the driver socket.  The David Shaw 6SN7s are fine as they are.
> 
> http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/12AX7-ECC83-Tube-Types/Genalex-Gold-Lion-ECC83-B759
> 
> This tube was a clear step up in resolution and tonal balance from every NOS 12AX7 and 5751 tube I have heard.  For 6SN7s I think the journey is not over, the NOS tubes have a lot to offer that isn't captured by new production tubes, but if you need a 12AX7 IMO your journey can end with this tube.




I have a couple of those from early experimenting but always favoured the smooth plate Telefunken ECC83, these are quite rare but remakes are available. I will give the Genalex another listen tonight.....


----------



## Xcalibur255

They take an unusually long time to settle in I have found.


----------



## SpudHarris

I have always valued your opinion as you know and I have left a Genalex playing for a few hours. My initial view was that there was an immense amount of treble glare but this seems to have subsided and I have been listening for about 3 hours with no fatigue... This was possibly compounded by the HD 800. Which is picky anyway but generally sounds good with the HP8.

I will leave the HP8 playing again tomorrow for a few hours with the same tubes and report back. The Genalex are sounding good after about 5 hours this evening though...


----------



## Xcalibur255

Mine took a good 40-50 hours to truly settle in.  It's odd you got treble glare, I found my tube to have a creamy/dark sound for the first 20 hours.  It was actually very pleasant to listen to that way because resolution was still good, I wouldn't have minded if it stayed that way.  It made the Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plate I had in before seem very tonally uneven by comparison with multiple treble spotlights.  Eventually the Genelex came out of it and settled into a very neutral tone.  This is with TS BGRP in as output.
  
 Running an all Sylvania combo works pretty well too, with "bad boy" GTs paired with the 5751.  It has some of that "sweet/hot" sylvania treble but isn't sibilant or prone to glare and really highlights vocals.


----------



## SpudHarris

Well I had a most enjoyable listening session last night with the Genalex still in place and have to say I was not tempted to swap it out again. I did drop the PSVANE's in favour of the TS BGRP, they really are the finest sounding tubes to my ears, just about perfect. I'm glad I grabbed a spare pair when I had the chance....


----------



## Silent One

I just sold my TS-BGRPs VT-231...I'm going to miss them.


----------



## TonyNewman

silent one said:


> I just sold my TS-BGRPs VT-231...I'm going to miss them.


 
  
 I hope this isn't a rude question - but I am curious - how much did the set of TS-BGRPs go for?


----------



## Badas

I thought I might give a modern tube a go. You know the Shuguang, Psvane or the TJ Full Music.
 I remember some comments about one of these having a rolled off treble or lazy treble. That's what I like.
  
 Can someone tell me what is was?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> I thought I might give a modern tube a go. You know the Shuguang, Psvane or the TJ Full Music.
> I remember some comments about one of these having a rolled off treble or lazy treble. That's what I like.
> 
> Can someone tell me what is was?
> ...


 
  
  
 I use, and like, both the Psvane T2 CV-181 (really a 6SN7) and the TJ 6SN7 (identical tube to the Sophia 6SN7).
  
 Out of 6 T2s I have had one blow in the first 50 hours. Other than that, all good.
  
 The Psvanes need a full 300 burn in to get to their best. The TJ/Sophia appears to not need so much.
  
 To my ears the TJ is a tad warmer and the T2 a tad more detailed and extended. Take your pick.
  
 Pictures below shows the TJ and the Sophia side by side - same damn tube.


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> I use, and like, both the Psvane T2 CV-181 (really a 6SN7) and the TJ 6SN7 (identical tube to the Sophia 6SN7).
> 
> Out of 6 T2s I have had one blow in the first 50 hours. Other than that, all good.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Are you not in Auckland? Have you changed your Avatar?
  
 Do you want to sell me a set of the TJ or Sophia?


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> Are you not in Auckland? Have you changed your Avatar?
> 
> Do you want to sell me a set of the TJ or Sophia?


 
  
 Yes - Auckland is my home. I only have one set of each - so sorry, I don't have any to spare.
  
 There are sellers out there who will ship direct to NZ.
  
 These folks sell both TJ and T2 at good prices, and I think they will ship direct to NZ from China. Linda is good to deal with.
  
http://www.tube-sale.com/
  
 Just keep in mind the custom value limits for imports into NZ.
  
 There are other North American based sellers who claim to do far more QA of the tubes and charge a hefty premium for such. It is a consumer choice on which way you want to go. The hard fact is that living in NZ makes return of tubes rather impractical - China or North America - so I buy from the cheapest seller I can find and live with the consequences. When my T2 blew I threw it in the bin and got on with my day. That is my choice, but it might not be yours, so think about how you want to go. If you want warranty support you can depend on you will have use a US based seller (Sophia or Grant Fidelity etc) and pay a lot more for the same tubes. Your call.


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> Yes - Auckland is my home. I only have one set of each - so sorry, I don't have any to spare.
> 
> There are sellers out there who will ship direct to NZ.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah. I take the same attitude. Not worried about returns or warranties. Except any dud tubes I throw in my pot plants so visitors can look and handle them.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> Yeah. I take the same attitude. Not worried about returns or warranties. Except any dud tubes I throw in my pot plants so visitors can look and handle them.


 
  
 I also question how much value the extra tube testing really adds. My blown tube came with the usual Psvane paperwork showing it had passed all the tests ...etc. Unless someone was going to burn the tube in for me for 50+ hours there is no way they are going to know that it is going to blow.
  
 So I bin it and move on. I might feel differently if one of SERPs blows within the warranty period. Those puppies are $600 USD a piece, so I might get motivated about the warranty and returns process for those


----------



## Badas

What amp is your Avatar????


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> What amp is your Avatar????


 
  
 Triode Corporation TRV-845SE. It's a SET 20W amp built around the 845 power tube. 6SN7s driving 2A3s driving 845s (more or less).
  
 I love the SET sound, but the WA5 with 8W doesn't quite cut it for speaker duty, so the 20W 845 based amp was the next step up.
  
 20W is enough to drive speakers @ 90+ dB sensitivity. I take delivery in about 2 weeks.
  
 I have heard the 8W 300B based version of this amp and it is a sweet unit indeed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Triode make some very nice amps, and not that pricey either (for mid range tube gear).


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Very nice.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Very nice.


 
  
 I hope it sounds as good as it looks.
  
 Have you thought about taking your tube lovin' mainstream into a big rig?
  
 I started with a WA6, then WA5, now the TRV-845SE. Like progressing from weed to snorting crack from hooker body parts


----------



## Silent One

tonynewman said:


> I hope this isn't a rude question - but I am curious - how much did the set of TS-BGRPs go for?


 
 Purchased them pre-owned from a dealer three years ago at $350; sold them privately for $350. _Really beautiful sounding glass._


----------



## larcenasb

I'm in love with the expansiveness, power and PRAT the Ken-Rad VT-231 black-glass lends to my AKG K612s, so much so that I'm trying to stock up a bit!
  
*Quick question, please*: If an eBay seller claims a 6SN7 tube reads at 60/60 -- where "50/50=min" -- how long will the tube _typically _last if played a few hours every night?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Without knowing which tester was used and the specified test values for the tube _for_ that specific tester, it's not really possible to answer.  Good sellers disclose this information.
  
 Even then it also depends upon how the tube is used.  In an amp where the tube is biased conservatively a tube that tests "weak" could still give a lot of service hours.
  
 With the Ken Rads the important thing, aside from getting tubes with no shorts which is ALWAYS the most important thing, is to find ones that aren't noisy since many of the Ken Rads are.


----------



## punit

xcalibur255 said:


> With the Ken Rads the important thing, aside from getting tubes with no shorts which is ALWAYS the most important thing, is to find ones that aren't noisy since many of the Ken Rads are.


 
 I have a KR VT 231 BG which is microphonic on WA22 but no noise on Glenn's OTL, what can be the reason ?


----------



## rosgr63

larcenasb said:


> I'm in love with the expansiveness, power and PRAT the Ken-Rad VT-231 black-glass lends to my AKG K612s, so much so that I'm trying to stock up a bit!
> 
> *Quick question, please*: If an eBay seller claims a 6SN7 tube reads at 60/60 -- where "50/50=min" -- how long will the tube _typically _last if played a few hours every night?


 
  
  
 A very useful test is the life test.
 That would tell you more about a tube's longevity.
 Some tube types test below NOS but could last a long time.
  


xcalibur255 said:


> Without knowing which tester was used and the specified test values for the tube _for_ that specific tester, it's not really possible to answer.  Good sellers disclose this information.
> 
> Even then it also depends upon how the tube is used.  In an amp where the tube is biased conservatively a tube that tests "weak" could still give a lot of service hours.
> 
> With the Ken Rads the important thing, aside from getting tubes with no shorts which is ALWAYS the most important thing, is to find ones that aren't noisy since many of the Ken Rads are.


 
  
 That's right Tyrell.
 A lot depends how a tube is run in a circuit.
 Some amps run them much harder than others.
  


punit said:


> I have a KR VT 231 BG which is microphonic on WA22 but no noise on Glenn's OTL, what can be the reason ?


 
  
 The tube is probably run on different operating point.
 I have changed some noisy 6SN7's tubes duty from driver to out put and they run very quiet, all in the same amp.


----------



## Badas

Trying to learn all about tubes. Could someone tell me what is a noisy tube please?

Is it when you get a background static hiss noise? I think I got one of those.

It didn't appear in the music but was heard between music tracks.


----------



## Lorspeaker

i hv one that hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmms.....a russian.


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> i hv one that hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmms.....a russian.




Yeah mine is Russian as well. It is like a radio static whirl noise. Can only be heard with no music or very quiet music. Noise does not raise up in volume when the level is increased. All my other tubes are dead silent. 

Is this what is refered to as a noisy tube?

Mine are brand new. Shall I just give up on them? Or could it improve with age?

I kinda just want to give up. If they are rubbish so be it. Life is to short for crappy tubes.


----------



## Lorspeaker

some other tube-combos on the other slots might take away the noise...
  
 my psvane had a low hmmm on the left channel when it was brand new...
 it went off after about 50-100hours


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Yeah mine is Russian as well. It is like a radio static whirl noise. Can only be heard with no music or very quiet music. Noise does not raise up in volume when the level is increased. All my other tubes are dead silent.
> 
> Is this what is refered to as a noisy tube?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Brand new tubes are often noisy. However they often quiet down after 20 hours or so. Don't give up on them yet....


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> some other tube-combos on the other slots might take away the noise...
> 
> my psvane had a low hmmm on the left channel when it was brand new...
> it went off after about 50-100hours


 
  
  


gibosi said:


> Brand new tubes are often noisy. However they often quiet down after 20 hours or so. Don't give up on them yet....


 
  
 Thanks guys. I will roll them back in then and put up with the noise for a while. I have just installed tube savers so it is easy to roll tubes in and out.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Do u have an account in EBAY?


----------



## MIKELAP

Got a question for you guys would these be 6SN7 BAD BOYS or only the Svlvania GT's can be called that . Thanks


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> Do u have an account in EBAY?


 

 Yes.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Technically they are not "Bad Boy" tubes MIKELAP.  A GTB type 6SN7 with that plate style is rather uncommon though, if the price is low enough they would probably be worth picking up.


----------



## MIKELAP

xcalibur255 said:


> Technically they are not "Bad Boy" tubes MIKELAP.  A GTB type 6SN7 with that plate style is rather uncommon though, if the price is low enough they would probably be worth picking up.


 
 Would $50.00 be to much.Thanks


----------



## Badas

Anyone no the sound signature to the NU 6SN7GT blackglass?


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Anyone no the sound signature to the NU 6SN7GT blackglass?


 
  
 The 6SN7 reference thread might be helpful:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread#post_1380036


----------



## punit

mikelap said:


> Got a question for you guys would these be 6SN7 BAD BOYS or only the Svlvania GT's can be called that . Thanks


 
Xcalibur255 is correct these are not Bad Boys. Please see the 9th post on the link for Bad Boy info :
  
 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=120726.0


----------



## Xcalibur255

mikelap said:


> Would $50.00 be to much.Thanks


 

 That isn't a ripoff price, but it's probably more than I would pay for them.


----------



## Stereolab42

Are Tung-Sol 6DJ8s from WWII really worth more than twice as much as their peers?


----------



## Nic Rhodes

6SN7 TS are certainly very near the top, if not top of the pile so will carry a premium (and have done for years now), people raved about them 20 years ago when I bought mine. Re Tung-Sol 6DJ8s from WWII they are rarer than rocking horse do do


----------



## Stereolab42

nic rhodes said:


> 6SN7 TS are certainly very near the top, if not top of the pile so will carry a premium (and have done for years now), people raved about them 20 years ago when I bought mine. Re Tung-Sol 6DJ8s from WWII they are rarer than rocking horse do do


 
  
 I was smoking crack, I meant the T-S 6F8Gs (VT-99), electrically equivalent to the 6SN7s (VT-231s) with adapter but significantly cheaper. However there appears to be a catch... a lot of the 6F8Gs for sale appear to be the "flat plate" versions, but it's the T-S round plates that apparently have a much better sonic reputation. Is that correct?


----------



## Badas

I'm toying with the idea of going to 6F8g's with the adapters now I've had my WA22 for a while now.

If I was going in that direction what would be the most mellow tube? Not bright. I don't mind a rolled of treble.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

For TS, round plates are best  there are however many fine 6F8GS that are not round plates however with all all you need to watch noise levels.


----------



## punit

badas said:


> I'm toying with the idea of going to 6F8g's with the adapters now I've had my WA22 for a while now.
> 
> If I was going in that direction what would be the most mellow tube? Not bright. I don't mind a rolled of treble.


 

 I have heard TS, Sylvania & National Union 6F8G's. The NU's were the most smooth.


----------



## rosgr63

The NU round plates and the Raytheon 6F8G's are very nice tubes.


----------



## r one

Hi there
  
 i'm a new consummer of 6f8g and 6sn7 tubes (with a lot of pleasure) since i've bought my first amp tube : the balancing act.
 I like to understand things and I have a technical question for you about the _*round plate*_ system.
 What is his interest? It brings benefit to the tube? it changes the nature of sound? fiability of the tube? the longevity of the tube?
  
  Actually i've got a Tung sol 6SN7GT bgrp / mullard ecc35/ TS 6f8g-VT99 *flat plate* (my favorite) for rolling my BA . I've just found and bought 2 NOS Tung Sol 6f8g VT99 *round plate*. I'll sounding like my VT99 flate plate or there will be a different sound ?


----------



## Stereolab42

r one said:


> Actually i've got a Tung sol 6SN7GT bgrp / mullard ecc35/ TS 6f8g-VT99 *flat plate* (my favorite) for rolling my BA . I've just found and bought 2 NOS Tung Sol 6f8g VT99 *round plate*. I'll sounding like my VT99 flate plate or there will be a different sound ?


 
  
 Please give us a report once you get your round-plate and can compare them!


----------



## r one

i'll do. Tubes may arrive this week probably.


----------



## r one

tubes arrived this morning. I'll test and compare them between flat and round plate version of the same tube. I'll tell you if they sound different.


----------



## r one

Good evening, i've tested the two versions of the tung sol 6F8G VT 99. It appears that round plate version and flat staggered plate version sounding *exactly the same for me*. with my 2 cans (w3000 or TH900). With the Balancing Act, it brings me dynamic sound and deep bass with high clarity (like loundness type sound). It's the preamp tube i prefer with this marvellous amplifier. When i'm wanting more control and smooth sound in the high frequency, i prefer use the Tung Sol 6SN7GT BGRP more neutral : one for morning listening and one for evening listening.


----------



## Stereolab42

r one said:


> Good evening, i've tested the two versions of the tung sol 6F8G VT 99. It appears that round plate version and flat staggered plate version sounding *exactly the same for me*. with my 2 cans (w3000 or TH900). With the Balancing Act, it brings me dynamic sound and deep bass with high clarity (like loundness type sound). It's the preamp tube i prefer with this marvellous amplifier. When i'm wanting more control and smooth sound in the high frequency, i prefer use the Tung Sol 6SN7GT BGRP more neutral : one for morning listening and one for evening listening.


 
  
 Interesting. So you actually hear a difference between the 6SN7 and 6F8G versions of the Tung Sol? I thought they were supposed to have exactly the same internals.


----------



## r one

Yes, i hear a difference between Tung Sol 6F8G bgrp and 6SN7GT bgrp. both versions are very close, in the same way, but they sound different anyway.
 6SN7GT is the latest evolution of 6F8G. I don't know if its exactly the same characteristics between the two versions.


----------



## mcandmar

I must try a Tung-Sol, of the 6F8G variants my favorite was the round plate National Union, it excelled in euphoric warmth and dynamics.  The newer the tubes, i.e. flat plate 6F8G > flat plate 6SN7GT's > angled plate 6SN7GTBS > 6CG7/6FQ7's i found the sound gets cleaner and more refined. But there is something about the round plate 6F8G's that just sounds so good, each have there place IMO.


----------



## r one

actually, i've heard TS 6F8G flate square plate and round plate/TS VT231 bgrp/ECC35 mullard and TS 6SN7 GTB(stock tube for the BA). My favourites flavours are 6F8G and VT231 BGRP version.
  
 What is the current reissue tube the closest to this NOS for you ?


----------



## Stereolab42

Alright, I'm finally set up with 6F8Gs. I have RCA and Tung-Sol flat-plate VT-99s, and a couple Tung-Sol round-plate VT-99s on the way. The hardest part was finding working adapters. The first ones I tried has noise issues apparently due to grounding. They were based off the now-ubiquitous ceramic/brass savers that usually work well, except in this case. I then surmised that I should be looking for all-plastic adapters, and these ones did , with no more noise at any volume than 6SN7s:
  

  
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171555247064
  
 So far both the RCAs and T-S FPs sound great. As long as you get the right adapters they make excellent 6SN7 substitutes.


----------



## TonyNewman

stereolab42 said:


> Alright, I'm finally set up with 6F8Gs. I have RCA and Tung-Sol flat-plate VT-99s, and a couple Tung-Sol round-plate VT-99s on the way. The hardest part was finding working adapters. The first ones I tried has noise issues apparently due to grounding. They were based off the now-ubiquitous ceramic/brass savers that usually work well, except in this case. I then surmised that I should be looking for all-plastic adapters, and these ones did , with no more noise at any volume than 6SN7s:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice!! Are those SERPs in the 300B slots?
  
 If yes, what are your impressions of them?


----------



## Khragon

haha thanks for the photo.. I didn't try very hard putting in the 6F8G (w/ woo adapter) and my SERPs, stop trying when it look like things won't fit, look like you have to insert the 6F8G first then the SERP?


----------



## Stereolab42

khragon said:


> haha thanks for the photo.. I didn't try very hard putting in the 6F8G (w/ woo adapter) and my SERPs, stop trying when it look like things won't fit, look like you have to insert the 6F8G first then the SERP?


 
  
 I don't have to, but it makes things easier if I take out one of the 300Bs first (which is annoying when rolling since they take ages to cool down). The SERPs are absolutely wonderful, but I have no other endgame 300Bs to compare them to. Trying to get a pair of EML 300B meshes but it's taking a while.


----------



## Badas

stereolab42 said:


> Alright, I'm finally set up with 6F8Gs. I have RCA and Tung-Sol flat-plate VT-99s, and a couple Tung-Sol round-plate VT-99s on the way. The hardest part was finding working adapters. The first ones I tried has noise issues apparently due to grounding. They were based off the now-ubiquitous ceramic/brass savers that usually work well, except in this case. I then surmised that I should be looking for all-plastic adapters, and these ones did , with no more noise at any volume than 6SN7s:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I was about to purchase a set of the ceramic/brass version for my WA22. So I could use the 6F8G's.
  
 So shall I not buy them and go for the plastic version as well?


----------



## r one

stereolab42 said:


> Alright, I'm finally set up with 6F8Gs. I have RCA and Tung-Sol flat-plate VT-99s, and a couple Tung-Sol round-plate VT-99s on the way. The hardest part was finding working adapters. The first ones I tried has noise issues apparently due to grounding. They were based off the now-ubiquitous ceramic/brass savers that usually work well, except in this case. I then surmised that I should be looking for all-plastic adapters, and these ones did , with no more noise at any volume than 6SN7s:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## isquirrel

Received a bunch of 6SN7's yesterday,
  
 Tung Sol RP BG 
 RCA Red Base
 RCA WW2 Grey Glass
  
 The TS do everything that the others do just better IMHO, they sound more immediate but still have a beautiful euphonic quality that is just so right. The RCA Red base always remind me of a smoky, warm Jazz club. The grey glass have a nice even spread across the frequency spectrum.


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> I was about to purchase a set of the ceramic/brass version for my WA22. So I could use the 6F8G's.
> 
> So shall I not buy them and go for the plastic version as well?


 
  
 Go with the plastic ones I linked, otherwise you'll have noise trouble.


----------



## Frank I

scored some sylvania chrome tops today and also some sylvania 6sn7WGT if anyone uses 6sl7 I have one  that  sylvabia 6sl7wgt


----------



## Badas

stereolab42 said:


> Go with the plastic ones I linked, otherwise you'll have noise trouble.


 

 I wonder if a piece of isolation rubber on the base of the holder would have helped in your situation????
  
 I'm starting to think the whole 6F8G Drivers are more trouble than it's worth. Have you heard a big difference with the 6SN7's you were using.
  
 I have some paypal money that I want to spend and now I'm thinking of just staying 6SN7. Damn I like what I'm hearing now. So why change?


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> I wonder if a piece of isolation rubber on the base of the holder would have helped in your situation????
> 
> I'm starting to think the whole 6F8G Drivers are more trouble than it's worth. Have you heard a big difference with the 6SN7's you were using.
> 
> I have some paypal money that I want to spend and now I'm thinking of just staying 6SN7. Damn I like what I'm hearing now. So why change?


 
  
 It's not more trouble than it's worth. Equivalent 6F8Gs are 40%-75% cheaper than their 6SN7 counterparts. I already did the hard work for you, now go get those adapters!


----------



## Badas

In this setup couldn't you have taken the bottom spacers away from the 6F8G's?
 It would have kept them further away from the other tubes.
 If a pin broke the convertor would have worked as a saver anyway.


----------



## Frank I

badas said:


> I wonder if a piece of isolation rubber on the base of the holder would have helped in your situation????
> 
> I'm starting to think the whole 6F8G Drivers are more trouble than it's worth. Have you heard a big difference with the 6SN7's you were using.
> 
> I have some paypal money that I want to spend and now I'm thinking of just staying 6SN7. Damn I like what I'm hearing now. So why change?


 
 The 6F8G  tungsol 1942 tubes are awesome and sound excellent. Miss those.


----------



## musicman59

Just get the adapters from Glen those work great.


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> In this setup couldn't you have taken the bottom spacers away from the 6F8G's?
> It would have kept them further away from the other tubes.
> If a pin broke the convertor would have worked as a saver anyway.


 
  
 The bottom savers are always in, they protect the unreplaceable amp sockets from wear. There is enough room for 6F8Gs... not much, but enough.


----------



## r one

isquirrel said:


> Received a bunch of 6SN7's yesterday,
> 
> Tung Sol RP BG
> RCA Red Base
> ...


 

 mmmmmmh..lovely pic


----------



## rosgr63

musicman59 said:


> Just get the adapters from Glen those work great.


 

 Indeed, well made, top notch.


----------



## r one

> Damn I like what I'm hearing now. So why change?


 
 ah ah ah..an addiction 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
     



  I am the same.


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> ah ah ah..an addiction
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yip. However I'm trying to learn to stop.
 I'm going to listen to my rig for a while with my current 6SN7's. If I don't want any further improvement I will stay with 6SN7.
 I don't find 6SN7 over priced.


----------



## Frank I

have to tell you I am impressed with the current production tungsol reissue . Sounds very linear to me and has nice top end with good bass


----------



## TonyNewman

frank i said:


> have to tell you I am impressed with the current production tungsol reissue . Sounds very linear to me and has nice top end with good bass


 
  
 These are the Russkie Tung-Sols?
  
 I've been struggling to find a really good new production 6SN7 - might have to give these a try.
  
 The Psvane T2s have excellent detail, balance and extension (both ways), but lack any warmth - they are quite dry and "crunchy" if that makes sense.


----------



## JoshL

Hi,

I've just gotten myself an Apex Teton and am about to embark on some 6SN7 rolling fun.

One thing I'm curious about is how long these NOS 6SN7 tubes need to burn in and settle down? I'm asking cos I don't know how long I should run each tube in the amp to get a fair representation of its sound before I pull it for another.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## Badas

joshl said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just gotten myself an Apex Teton and am about to embark on some 6SN7 rolling fun.
> 
> ...


 

 Ruffly 50 hours. Depends on the tube.
  
 I have had some not change then others change dramatically. Had a set of Sylvania's surprise me this week. Big change and they are sounding real nice.


----------



## Frank I

tonynewman said:


> These are the Russkie Tung-Sols?
> 
> I've been struggling to find a really good new production 6SN7 - might have to give these a try.
> 
> The Psvane T2s have excellent detail, balance and extension (both ways), but lack any warmth - they are quite dry and "crunchy" if that makes sense.


 
 Tony they are excellent  tubes well worth a listen and frankly very surprising .  I am enjoying them in my amp.


----------



## TonyNewman

frank i said:


> Tony they are excellent  tubes well worth a listen and frankly very surprising .  I am enjoying them in my amp.


 
  
 Thanks for the tip - I will hunt some down and give them a bash.


----------



## KevinWolff

Hello - For anyone interested, I'm selling my entire 6sn7/cv181 tube collection on eBay now. Auction ends in 20 hours. Included tubes are the Mullard CV181, 2 Shuguang BT's, 2 Syvania Bad Boys (2 and 3-hole plate), TungSol Mouse Ears, etc. 
 It's my "It's been a terrible year" sale. Also to come, LCD-2 (original failed driver REV1 changed to REV2 by Audeze), Apex Peak headphone amp/preamp and Volcano Power Supply, and the Anedio D1 DAC and USB to Spdif converter. 
  
6SN7 QT8 Tube Lot Mullard CV181 2 Bad Boys Mouse Ears 2 Shuguang BT | eBay


----------



## Frank I

I have three 6SN7 WGT Brown Base and one Syvania 6SL7 I will be lisitn in the FS tomorrow if anyone is interested. All test NOS


----------



## rosgr63

kevinwolff said:


> Hello - For anyone interested, I'm selling my entire 6sn7/cv181 tube collection on eBay now. Auction ends in 20 hours. Included tubes are the Mullard CV181, 2 Shuguang BT's, 2 Syvania Bad Boys (2 and 3-hole plate), TungSol Mouse Ears, etc.
> It's my "It's been a terrible year" sale. Also to come, LCD-2 (original failed driver REV1 changed to REV2 by Audeze), Apex Peak headphone amp/preamp and Volcano Power Supply, and the Anedio D1 DAC and USB to Spdif converter.
> 
> 6SN7 QT8 Tube Lot Mullard CV181 2 Bad Boys Mouse Ears 2 Shuguang BT | eBay


 

 Nice tubes, good luck!


----------



## r one

I've recently bought a 6SN7 TS bgrp : i really love this tube. It's a NOS version, how long during, in hours, this kind of vacuum tube : 2000-3000hours or more?


----------



## rosgr63

Nice tube, well done.
  
 Tube life to some extend depends on how hard the tube is driven.
  
 I would say you can expect 4000hrs from it with conservative use.


----------



## r one

thanks.I'm using my BA with many precautions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 so i'm trying to find another ts bgrp for spare piece in the futur.


----------



## JamieMcC

Recently been having mixed results with the Russian Melz 6H8C 
  
 Initially listening with digital source I thought the tube was a little on the cool side and wasn't a fan of it, I had been used to running a 6sn7 National Union black bottle this view totally turned around the other day when I took my amp down stairs hooked up to the turntable to listen to some good old fashion vinyl, a new album turned up from amazon. It was around 11pm and I dropped the needle on the first track and instantly ripped the headphones off and jumped up out of the chair rushing to turn the speakers down thinking they where still hooked up! Talk about out of phones experience it was freakin awesome.  I tried some of the other usual suspects but the 6H8C with the turntable and LP was the best match. Interestingly the LP is noticeably more dynamic and spatial than the cd version.
  
 Its quiet amusing how I wasn't fond of the tube on digital set up and was even considering relisting it as I thought it wouldn't get much use, definitely a keeper now.


----------



## G600

I have recently received a pair of perforated anode Melz and I'm totally blown away.
 They are just better than everything I had in driver position in my system.
 Darker blackground, effortless and natural detail, almost Sylvania-like treble, and great neutrality with something special in the mids, sligtly tubey for the best.


----------



## Badas

g600 said:


> I have recently received a pair of perforated anode Melz and I'm totally blown away.
> They are just better than everything I had in driver position in my system.
> Darker blackground, effortless and natural detail, almost Sylvania-like treble, and great neutrality with something special in the mids, sligtly tubey for the best.




Can you post a pic please?


----------



## G600

I may, but they are just regular Melz perforated anodes, like the last topic's pic.


----------



## r one

Absolutely Tease G600 ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 How are the bass line with them ?


----------



## G600

Cleaner than my TS 6F8G, but less fun than the KR VT-231.
 Remermber that my experience is limited to my personal system...


----------



## r one

I know. If Kentucky tubes are fun tubes, they'll be good for me.


----------



## G600

We must meet. I have the tubes you are seeking, and i need to hear a BA.


----------



## r one




----------



## whirlwind

musicman59 said:


> Just get the adapters from Glen those work great.


 
 how much are Glenns adapters


----------



## rosgr63

whirlwind said:


> how much are Glenns adapters


 

 Send Glenn a PM.


----------



## whirlwind

rosgr63 said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > how much are Glenns adapters
> ...


 
 thank you.


----------



## rosgr63

Most welcome, you'll be very happy with Glenn's adapters.


----------



## whirlwind

rosgr63 said:


> Most welcome, you'll be very happy with Glenn's adapters.


 
 Glenn will be doing an amp for me in january....so I will ask him about the adapters then.


----------



## musicman59

whirlwind said:


> how much are Glenns adapters


 
 I bought them sometime ago so I do not remember they were not expensive if I recall correctly.


----------



## Khragon

I got some loose base 6F8Gs, which glue do I use to repair them? I got my self some Loctite extreme condition super glue, is that ok?


----------



## punit

khragon said:


> I got some loose base 6F8Gs, which glue do I use to repair them? I got my self some Loctite extreme condition super glue, is that ok?


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/4185#post_10815980


----------



## Khragon

punit said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/4185#post_10815980


 
 Thanks!


----------



## rosgr63

Superglue is usually fine

Nail varnish is also suitable


----------



## Lorspeaker

sigh that tube i had with the loose base, it died a few days later. ( gas leak?? )
 i will reject any tube with loose base from seller henceforth.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> sigh that tube i had with the loose base, it died a few days later. ( gas leak?? )
> i will reject any tube with loose base from seller henceforth.


 
  
 Couldn't agree with you more, L....I have TWO TS VT231s with loose bases, and although I can wiggle them to _sometimes_ behave they are completely unreliable....if only I knew _then_ what I know _now_!...NEVER AGAIN!!...


----------



## mcandmar

Lose base is easy to fix, unsolder the pins and slide the base down, add a bead of hot glue around the tube, push the base back into position and re-solder the pins.
  
 If a tube with a loose base suddenly dies i would suspect a broken pin connection so try re soldering them. Also if it works intermittantly while wigging the tube you have a broken connection in need of some solder.  Its the first thing i do when i come across a tube that tests dead, you would be surprised how many i have fixed doing that.


----------



## Lorspeaker

interesting..cant imagine myself soldering/unsoldering within that base cup..
 ....and i tot it was a gasleak, i can put away the gasmask.


----------



## britneedadvice

khragon said:


> I got some loose base 6F8Gs, which glue do I use to repair them? I got my self some Loctite extreme condition super glue, is that ok?


 
 Has anyone mentioned G-S Hypo Cement? I just bought 5 tubes for £6.49 ($10) from Hong Kong.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

If you have lost vacuum you will see wjite getter as opposed to a silvery / black one.


----------



## Badas

Anyone had experience with these re-issues? Look interesting. Or is it like all new tubes you want to run away and hide?


----------



## TonyNewman

One of the very new production driver tubes I haven't tried.
  
 They look very similar to the EH Gold tubes I have used - if they are the same thing then they aren't bad, but not a touch on the NOS RCA.
  
 I think EH and new production Tung-Sol are made by the same folks in Russia - so it might be the same tube.


----------



## Skylab

Not as good sounding as any vintage 6SN7GTB. They are what came in my Cary preamp and I couldn't get them out of there fast enough.


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> One of the very new production driver tubes I haven't tried.
> 
> They look very similar to the EH Gold tubes I have used - if they are the same thing then they aren't bad, but not a touch on the NOS RCA.
> 
> I think EH and new production Tung-Sol are made by the same folks in Russia - so it might be the same tube.


 

 Thanks.
  
 The blurb on eBay was a laugh.
  
*TUNGSOL REISSUE 6SN7GTB Matched Pair.BRAND NEW.Super linearity, low noise, and full performance ratings make this one of the best 6SN7 tubes ever made.The sound signature is on par with 5692 types.Excellent driver tube in high-end audio applications.*
  
 On a par with 5692. Yeah right.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The blurb on eBay was a laugh.
> 
> ...


 
  
 if it is the EH tube, I wouldn't call it vomit-inducing, but there are much better new production drivers, let alone NOS, out there.
  
 I don't know of any new production 6SN7 compatible driver that really cuts the mustard.


----------



## rosgr63

mcandmar said:


> Lose base is easy to fix, unsolder the pins and slide the base down, add a bead of hot glue around the tube, push the base back into position and re-solder the pins.
> 
> If a tube with a loose base suddenly dies i would suspect a broken pin connection so try re soldering them. Also if it works intermittantly while wigging the tube you have a broken connection in need of some solder.  Its the first thing i do when i come across a tube that tests dead, you would be surprised how many i have fixed doing that.


 
  
 Another trick is to run a hot soldering iron tip along the pins, sometimes it works very well.
 Some people can actually re base a tube using a proprietary tool.
 It doesn't always work as the tube glass can fracture when they heat up the base.
 I have posted photos of good & bad results earlier on if one is interested.
  


skylab said:


> Not as good sounding as any vintage 6SN7GTB. They are what came in my Cary preamp and I couldn't get them out of there fast enough.


 
  
 I couldn't agree more Rob.


----------



## r one

badas said:


> Anyone had experience with these re-issues? Look interesting. Or is it like all new tubes you want to run away and hide?


 

 I've tested this model with my BA. Honestly not bad for the price. Sounding space and 3D, bass is correctly controlled but a little mudy in confrontation with some good NOS. High frequencies are little veiled too. It's a correct tube if you've got and listen only this one. but my favorite 6SN7, TS VT231 bgrp is so so far away..


----------



## Lorspeaker

badas said:


> Anyone had experience with these re-issues? Look interesting. Or is it like all new tubes you want to run away and hide?


 
  
 oh memories...my first baptismpair ever bought for the dv336se...
 both were hummmming...sold them asap.


----------



## lojay

I have been rolling multiple "NOS" 6SN7s in my Apex Teton but no matter what I use, be it my favourite Sylvania 6SN7W metal base, Tungsol BGRP 6SN7 or the Mullard CV181, I just found the soundstage a bit closed in, or collapsed as one might put it, and the sound not clean enough for my liking. In other words, there was not enough "air" - the sound was rather thick - too much so to my liking on certain types of music. I was already using the WE 417A which I found to be the most neutral and accurate of all power tubes I have tried on the Teton. For this reason, I preferred the EC 4-45 (running EML 45 tubes with the WE 417A) for classical and live instrumentals and started to question why others vouched so much for the Teton for its speed, attack and detail.
  
 Then, my new CBS/Hytron 5692 brown base arrived. "Bam"! What a difference. The Teton sounded much more open, airy and dynamic, and I was getting pleasant results with classical and other well recorded live music that made the Teton compare very favourably to the 4-45 in this aspect. The key factor that distinguished this tube from the others was that the soundstage sounded "limitless" when it should be, instead of like a cavern on the HD800.
  
 Now the question is - is what I am experiencing characteristic of the various 6SN7 tubes I have mentioned, or is it likely that _all_ of the purportedly "NOS" premium 6SN7s I have, excluding the CBS/Hytron, are all past their prime or not as "NOS" as they were touted to be? Can there really be so much of a difference? This really baffles me because I have rolled 3 different Sylvania 6SN7W metal base tubes which I have purchased "NOS" and perhaps put on roughly 300 hours each: they all sounded pretty much the same to me. I wonder if anyone can enlighten me what is going on?


----------



## Nic Rhodes

CBS/Hytron 5692 brown base is a great tube and one of my favourites. Just enjoy.


----------



## MIKELAP

nic rhodes said:


> CBS/Hytron 5692 brown base is a great tube and one of my favourites. Just enjoy.


 
 Can i use my WA6's 6sn7 to 6DE7 adapter with the 5692 or is it a different adapter that's required


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> Can i use my WA6's 6sn7 to 6DE7 adapter with the 5692 or is it a different adapter that's required


 
  
 Good question. I know the 5692 uses less voltage. That is why it is suppose to last 10,000 hours. I think the adapters are just for pins not voltage so I would guess you would be okay. Might want to wait for someone else to chime in tho.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Can i use my WA6's 6sn7 to 6DE7 adapter with the 5692 or is it a different adapter that's required
> ...


 
 I was just checking out 5692 tubes on ebay and next to description they include 6sn7 so looks like ok but confirmation would be nice plus tube is on the Woo Audio tube list they say it needs an adapter but dont say if it is the same one as the  6SN7 that is used


----------



## Nic Rhodes

5692 is fine in the WA6 with adapter, this tube is conservatively rated, hence the 10,000 hrs life (life might be reduced because of driving harder however but is a rediculously long life tube anyway). I prefer the brown based 1950s CBS / Hytron to the red based ones as do many others. It is the 6SN7GTA and B that are a little difference, with power upto 4.5w per triode as opposed to 2.5w for the standard (few other tweaks as well). I always wondered whether this increased output was a enough for the more powerful 6se but guess no as not on the compatible list.


----------



## Xcalibur255

The long life rating of the 5692 comes from the recommended plate voltage for the tube.  If you take a regular 6SN7 and operate it within the same spec it will also last that long most likely.  The whole thing is quite gimmicky IMO.
  
 6SN7s in general are not a good idea in the WA6SE without doing something to lower the B+ voltage.  Otherwise the amp will chew those tubes up pretty fast.  In the regular WA6 a 6SN7 tube will live a happy life.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Is it the high B+ voltage or the power requirements that limit the 6SN7GT in the 6SE Xcalibur255? I don't have a 6 to investigate here.


----------



## 2359glenn

nic rhodes said:


> Is it the high B+ voltage or the power requirements that limit the 6SN7GT in the 6SE Xcalibur255? I don't have a 6 to investigate here.


 

 To use a 6SN7 in the WA6-SE it requires a special adapter that adds a cathode resistor and bypass capacitor.
 This changes the bias and lowers the cathode current in the section that is used for the output.
 Of course the power of the amp is reduced not that it matters with most headphones.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Thanks Glenn, that makes sense


----------



## Skylab

Right...they call the 6DE7 / 6FD7 "dissimilar triode" tubes for a reason. The two sections are totally different. Works well in the context of a headphone amp - one section for input and one for output, and one tube per channel. 

Honestly I could never understand the allure of using a 6SN7 in the WA6. The fat bottle 6FD7 is a great sounding tube and can be had dirt cheap.


----------



## MIKELAP

skylab said:


> Right...they call the 6DE7 / 6FD7 "dissimilar triode" tubes for a reason. The two sections are totally different. Works well in the context of a headphone amp - one section for input and one for output, and one tube per channel.
> 
> Honestly I could never understand the allure of using a 6SN7 in the WA6. The fat bottle 6FD7 is a great sounding tube and can be had dirt cheap.


 
 If you can find them, if you know of a source i would be interested and the last time i saw some they where at least$20.00 each and that was about a month ago .they are hard to find unfortunately


----------



## Stereolab42

skylab said:


> Right...they call the 6DE7 / 6FD7 "dissimilar triode" tubes for a reason. The two sections are totally different. Works well in the context of a headphone amp - one section for input and one for output, and one tube per channel.
> 
> Honestly I could never understand the allure of using a 6SN7 in the WA6. The fat bottle 6FD7 is a great sounding tube and can be had dirt cheap.


 
  
 I agree, the dissimilar triodes (I think all originally designed for TV sets!) do a great job in my WA6-SE. And people should consider that there are other theoretical advantages to the 6SE aside from more power -- the rectifier stage is isolated a separate chassis so there is less possibility of electrical interference with the amplifier stage.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

There is a very good article on these dissimilar triodes in Vacuum Tube Valley. A gold mine of potential that few have exploited so far.


----------



## 2359glenn

nic rhodes said:


> There is a very good article on these dissimilar triodes in Vacuum Tube Valley. A gold mine of potential that few have exploited so far.


 

 The problem is that I never found one that really sounds that good. I tried using a 6DN7 to drive a 300B because a 6SN7 can't
 really do it right. But could never got a good one Then I switched to a #10 now use C3g as the driver.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

The 300b tube is never easy to drive which is why many people use 5687 / C3gs / smaller power triodes etc to do it properly. The 6DN7 and other dissimilar tubes have many other uses and have a firm following in small amps / headphone amps though their use originally was driven by tvs. Heathkit I think uses them in the 60s  in ham radio transmitters and more recently Bottlehead S.E.X. kits. I have used them to drive transformers in a RF driven 300B but this is not what I would consider  first for driving a 300b, personally I like 3A/167Ms. Interstingly this is a US only style of valve, the UK and European did virtually non of these prefering ECL type valves (ala ECL83 used in headphone amps here in the UK). The dissimilar triodes I think work really well in the Woo 6 series. The 6SN7GT is a lovely valve, just not one I would use for a 300b amp driving it directly a la Woo.


----------



## Skylab

mikelap said:


> If you can find them, if you know of a source i would be interested and the last time i saw some they where at least$20.00 each and that was about a month ago .they are hard to find unfortunately




I have lots of the fat bottle 6FD7 I would be happy to sell for $5 per tube plus shipping...anyone wanting some can PM me.


----------



## 2359glenn

nic rhodes said:


> The 300b tube is never easy to drive which is why many people use 5687 / C3gs / smaller power triodes etc to do it properly. The 6DN7 and other dissimilar tubes have many other uses and have a firm following in small amps / headphone amps though their use originally was driven by tvs. Heathkit I think uses them in the 60s  in ham radio transmitters and more recently Bottlehead S.E.X. kits. I have used them to drive transformers in a RF driven 300B but this is not what I would consider  first for driving a 300b, personally I like 3A/167Ms. Interstingly this is a US only style of valve, the UK and European did virtually non of these prefering ECL type valves (ala ECL83 used in headphone amps here in the UK). The dissimilar triodes I think work really well in the Woo 6 series. The 6SN7GT is a lovely valve, just not one I would use for a 300b amp driving it directly a la Woo.


 

 Dissimilar triodes were extensively used as vertical oscillator and vertical output in US made TVs
 Before Woo started using them they could be had for $1
 The biggest use for 6SN7s in US was vertical and horizontal oscillator in older US TVs I even seen 7N7s used for this.
 Then switched to the more modern 6CG7/6FQ7 really the same tube just in a 9 pin mini tube 
 But 6SN7s were also used in amplifiers as phase inverter and driver for push pull pentodes in high power amps.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Yes I know that Glenn,after the Octals came the novals and then the Compactrons. We also had larger bottles, all of which used to go for pennies, nowday post Woo 6s, getting fat bottle 6FD7 is much more difficult for people (take up Skylab kind offer if you need them Mike). The price is also much higher and the available quantity significantly reduced (although some of us stocked up when you could hardly give these things away ). Woo now sell pairs of fat bottle 6FD7 at $52, probably bought at $2. You have to admire that as a business model, build a demand from nothing and have plenty of supply to exploit.


----------



## SoundApprentice

By any chance does anyone have any 7N7 to 6SN7 adapters they aren't using? I'm looking for 1 or a pair.


----------



## musicman59

soundapprentice said:


> By any chance does anyone have any 7N7 to 6SN7 adapters they aren't using? I'm looking for 1 or a pair.


 
 Contact Gelnn. He just made a pair for me.


----------



## IndieGradoFan

I've been experiencing a strange issue with my WA22 that I *think* I've narrowed down to my 6SN7 tubes.
  
 I've been experiencing sudden drops in volume on the left channel about once per day (avg 6h sessions). Enough of a drop to make the right channel over power left channel. The first few times it happened, it seemed to be correlated with static electricity from dragging the headphone cable over the carpet.
  
 On two occasions, the balance was eventually restored by the right channel reducing in volume too -- to the point where I was running the amp about 2 "hours" higher on the volume dial than normal. Most other occasions, the left channel gradually increases in volume over a period of a few minutes -- slow enough that I don't notice it increase in volume and then I'll notice the balance has been restored.
  
 I've experienced this with different rectifiers (Sophia 274B, Brimar 5Z4GY), different power tubes (TS7236, Chatham 2399), and different headphone cables. The only constants are my LCD-X and Sophia 6SN7s. I haven't experienced the problem with the LCD-Xs on my Mjolnir.
  
 Finally, I swapped the Sophia 6SN7s and today the problem occurred again, though this time it was the right channel. I quickly powered off the amp and replaced the Sophias with CV181 BTs and the right channel was now *louder* than the left. Swapped CV181s again and the right channel was still louder. I then powered off the WA22 for a few minutes, powered it back on, with the CV181s still, and I've had no issues since.
  
 The Sophia 6SN7s have a few hundred hours on them. Same with the CV181s.
  
 My current theory is that one of the Sophias was going bad and that the imbalance I heard after switching to the CV181s was due to some residual charge in a biasing capacitor. Plausible?


----------



## SoundEngineer

I am sorry to just jump in the discussion and change a subject.  But there is this burning question that I need help.
  
 I have Little Dot MK VI+ and it can use 6sn7 and 6sl7 as driver.  I really want to use C3G as driver.  Is there an adapter or some way to accomplish this?  Is this even possible?
  
 Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## gibosi

soundengineer said:


> I am sorry to just jump in the discussion and change a subject.  But there is this burning question that I need help.
> 
> I have Little Dot MK VI+ and it can use 6sn7 and 6sl7 as driver.  I really want to use C3G as driver.  Is there an adapter or some way to accomplish this?  Is this even possible?
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.


 
  
 Yes, it is possible. But to do so requires a custom adapter to connect two C3gs into one 6SL7 socket. This adapter must accomplish two functions. First, since the C3g is a pentode, it will have to convert the C3Gs into triodes. And second, the adapter will have to reroute the cathode, grid and plate of each CG3 to the appropriate pins in the 6SL7 socket as well as the heaters.
  
 As an example, it might look similar to this 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter, but with loctal sockets on top, instead of octal.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6J5-6J5-to-6SN7-Vacuum-tube-adapter-socket-converter-02-/301539001598?
  
 If you are not up to building one of these yourself, you might want to contact one of the eBay vendors who build various adapters and ask if they would be willing to build one for you. In response to just such a request, at least two different vendors have built C3g to 6AK5 adapters for the Little Dot 1+. II, III and IV.
  
 Cheers!
  
 Edit: I have no idea how a C3G will sound in a circuit designed around the 6SL7. So if you decide to give this a try, please let us know how it turned out.


----------



## SoundEngineer

gibosi said:


> Yes, it is possible. But to do so requires a custom adapter to connect two C3gs into one 6SL7 socket. This adapter must accomplish two functions. First, since the C3g is a pentode, it will have to convert the C3Gs into triodes. And second, the adapter will have to reroute the cathode, grid and plate of each CG3 to the appropriate pins in the 6SL7 socket as well as the heaters.
> 
> As an example, it might look similar to this 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter, but with loctal sockets on top, instead of octal.
> 
> ...


 
 gibosi,
  
 Thank you so much for letting me know what direction I need to be heading.  I will definitely either build or buy the adapter to try C3g on 6SN7 or 6SL7 circuit design and let you know how it sounds.
  
 My hope is that C3g S will blow away all the 6sn7 and 6sl7 tubes.  I am looking for the "END GAME" tube and I think C3g might be it.
  
 I will let you know.  May be I can let your hear the differences instead of telling you what my subjective impressions are.
  
 BTW, I was thinking about working on a little project.  I am not sure if someone else already has done this...if so please let me know.  I am trying to create a library of 6sn7 tube sound samples with different power tube combinations.  Like a comparison chart with frequency response and music sounds from the tubes.  I don't have too many of 6sn7s right now but I am building my collection slowly.  I am planning to use my MK VI+ balanced preamp output to a balanced recording device with lossless format 24bit 96kHz.  I will play a same music with different tubes so the listener can hear the difference between the tubes.
 Something like this but with 6sn7 tubes instead of headphones:
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XSbtDgMxEY
 skip to 1:47
  
 I am very new to tube amps (just got into it around 4 months ago). I was buying tubes based on what people say and how good it is.There are not too many places where I can demo tubes for me.  But if you can hear the differences like dynamics, warmth/bright/dark,details, and high/mid/low frequency response of a tube it can give someone some sort of idea/hint of what to expect from a particular tube that he/she might be interested.  Right now I own Full Music 6sn7 "B" grade, Psvane cv181-tii "A" grade, russian 6h9c (stock tube for MK VI+), and tung-sol 6sn7gt.  I bought all these tubes without listening to them.  All four tubes are very different and Psvane cv181 is the most dynamic and Full Music is the most detailed of all four.  And you can totally tell the difference between the tubes with the music I recorded between all four tubes.  I have been making my own CD by playing my favorite music through the MK VI+ and rerecord the sound refined by the driver tubes then burn the audio CD so i can listen in my car just to listen and compare the different characteristics of the tubes.  I am just doing this out of curiosity and help people who are new to tubes like me. So it's not going to be professional quality like Sonicsense.com who are doing it to help their business.
  
 So if I succeed in getting C3g to work with 6sn7/6sl7 circuitry...I will upload the samples for you so you can be the judge instead of just wonder if it really sounds as good as or bad as my subjective impression says.


----------



## Xcalibur255

In a circuit that wasn't designed for the C3g it's anybody's guess what kind of results you are going to get.  The tube might end up with less than ideal biasing.  Properly driven the C3g is as close to "soundless" as a driver as I have heard in terms of coloration or deviation from neutral.  It has little in the way of a signature you could describe with words like "warm" or such.  What it will do is make more obvious the coloration of any tubes downstream from it, for better or worse.


----------



## SoundEngineer

xcalibur255 said:


> In a circuit that wasn't designed for the C3g it's anybody's guess what kind of results you are going to get.  The tube might end up with less than ideal biasing.  Properly driven the C3g is as close to "soundless" as a driver as I have heard in terms of coloration or deviation from neutral.  It has little in the way of a signature you could describe with words like "warm" or such.  What it will do is make more obvious the coloration of any tubes downstream from it, for better or worse.


 
 Thank you so much for clearing this up about the C3g's characteristic.  So hypothetically if you had a hybrid tube amp (tube preamp and solid state power output) with C3g properly driven...it would just sound like a SS amp with good preamp, right?  Basically it will be "soundless" or add any tube color so you will be listening to the sound that is closest to how it was originally recorded, right?


----------



## gibosi

soundengineer said:


> Thank you so much for clearing this up about the C3g's characteristic.  So hypothetically if you had a hybrid tube amp (tube preamp and solid state power output) with C3g properly driven...it would just sound like a SS amp with good preamp, right?  Basically it will be "soundless" or add any tube color so you will be listening to the sound that is closest to how it was originally recorded, right?


 
  
 I have a hybrid tube amp, the Little Dot 1+, which allows rolling of op-amps. To my ears, at least, there is a significant difference in the sound of SS op-amps. Aside from differences in tonality, some with more more bass and warmth and some with more air, they also differ in terms of wetness and dryness as well as liquidity and grain.
  
 Further, using various pin-adapters, I run both C3gs and 6SN7s in the 1+. It is likely that neither of these tubes is biased properly given the amp was designed to use triode-strapped 6AK5s. And of course there are other variables, such as sources, headphones, ears and brains. Given these qualifications, in my system, the C3g is not better than a Sylvania 6SN7W, for example, it is just different. The best I can say is that given my ears and gear and mood I might prefer one or the other. And I am not sure I believe that there is such a thing as an "END GAME" tube, at least for me.
  
 Even if one has an amp that can bias both the C3G and the 6SN7 properly, it is likely that one might prefer the C3G with one combination of rectifier, powertubes and headphones, and a 6SN7 with another combination. Fortunately, soon I will be able to test this a bit further as I am expecting the delivery of a just such an amp in the coming weeks.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

If this is for the VI+ isn't it replacing a 6SL7GT?


----------



## carusoracer

Anyone suggest a warm , rosin on the bow, British valve sound with good layering and low level detail. I'm looking for that sweet midrange and clean bass.

My CV 181 Black treasure sounds like it has given up.
I like the JAN Sylvania short bottle I put in its place but looking at something new or NOS


----------



## Mechans1

There is the Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTY it  is not overly warm,it leans in that direction.  I would have said a Sylvania "W" but you already know you like them.  Just curious, if you know you like them, why not try to snag one that appears to be NOS or at least close to NOS? I have a bunch myself  but very few with original boxes.


----------



## Xcalibur255

soundengineer said:


> Thank you so much for clearing this up about the C3g's characteristic.  So hypothetically if you had a hybrid tube amp (tube preamp and solid state power output) with C3g properly driven...it would just sound like a SS amp with good preamp, right?  Basically it will be "soundless" or add any tube color so you will be listening to the sound that is closest to how it was originally recorded, right?


 
  
 To clarify a bit, I mean the C3g has less tube bloom than any small signal tube I have personally heard.  A C3g driving a 45 is the most neutral sound I have experienced, the most obvious colorations I hear from the system come from the frequency response of the headphones.  I have never heard a 6SN7 that was truly neutral to my ears.  Some sound very lovely and desirable to listen to, but never neutral in my personal opinion.  I was just trying to give you that frame of reference so you had an idea of what to expect from the C3g.  If it is properly driven the expectation would be for it to take away some degree of coloration and any change in sound you hear would come from this.  This is what I was trying to say.
  
 It's only my take on it, and it will be amp and equipment dependent.


----------



## SoundEngineer

Xcalibur255

Totally nakes sense. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and thoughts on the C3g. What you said totally confirms with others who have or listen to c3g. Also, everything really depends on your amp, too. Thanks


----------



## SoundEngineer

Sorry, i meant to write "makes sense".


----------



## r one

carusoracer said:


> Anyone suggest a warm , rosin on the bow, British valve sound with good layering and low level detail. I'm looking for that sweet midrange and clean bass.
> 
> My CV 181 Black treasure sounds like it has given up.
> I like the JAN Sylvania short bottle I put in its place but looking at something new or NOS


 
 @ Carusoracer : i've juste tried Brimar 6SN7 GT black glass medium bottle with my BA. Beautiful mids and highs, similar to the ecc35 Mullard. I find bass not thick enougnh for my taste. but tube is nos and not burned yet(only 5 hours), i hope it wake up with many hours.


----------



## hypnos1

soundengineer said:


> gibosi,
> 
> Thank you so much for letting me know what direction I need to be heading.  I will definitely either build or buy the adapter to try C3g on 6SN7 or 6SL7 circuit design and let you know how it sounds.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi SoundEngineer.
  
 Would just like to give you some encouragement re trying the wonderful C3g...
  
 Having pioneered this driver in the 'Little Dot Tube Amps Vacuum Tube Rolling Guide' - mine being the MKIV SE (none were configured for the C3g), and many now find this to be the best - I have recently adapted it (with advice from Glenn of Glenn Amps) for the new 6SN7 driver-based Feliks-Audio Elise OTL HP amp, and the results are truly astounding. There were doubts (to say the least!) from the pros about its performance in amps not specifically configured for it but I personally have found it (the 'S' version especially) outperforming by a large margin some very nice 6SN7s - eg PsVane CV181TIIs and Sylvania tall-bottle 'Chrome Dome' 7N7s.
  
 So I'm confident that you will also find success, but as has been mentioned it does depend on the amp in question - trial and error can often yield surprising results...
  
 A view of my own final 'tinkering'!...
  

  
 ps. The GEC CV2523s (6AS7G) + the C3GSs are a marriage made in Heaven, to be sure - as with the Beyer T1s!
  
 Good luck with your own quest for sound nirvana...


----------



## gibosi

And just to clarify, fitting two C3gs into two octal sockets, as H1 has done with his Elise, is a very different undertaking than fitting two C3gs into one octal socket, as you will need to do for your MK VI+. Again, it is very hard to predict how the C3gs will sound in any amp not explicitly designed for them. While I think it is safe to say that the C3gs will likely not perform up to their potential, they just might sound surprisingly good.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Bob383rad

I have an Apex Pinnacle tube amp and have several 6sn7 tubes, but my favorite by far is the NOS English tube from 1940. Very expensive, but really make this amp sing with deep bass as well as beautiful mids and trebles. Problem is the cost of this tube.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

what tubes is this?


----------



## Bob383rad

I am at work, I will let you know the specifics when I get home. This is a $1000. tube driving the 2 PX7's in the Pinnacle. It was made in England just before WWII and was used for radar screens, initially.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

6SN7GT tubes are really 1941 onwards but I am really interested in early tubes. Can you head home early  There were such brilliant tubes in this era  There are such great gems out there.


----------



## Bob383rad

It is a GEC B65 tube at tejas.com
 He is a pleasure to do business with. I have no business interests with tejas.
 tejas.com


----------



## Bob383rad

From tejas.com website: Marconi Osram B65 Metal base Almost impossible to find as NOS, these amazing metal base military spec tubes have consistently won 6SN7 shoot outs over and over again! Of course these are only for the most discriminating...


----------



## Bob383rad

tejastubes.com
  
 Sorry


----------



## decade127000

very helpful! i am finding the tube for my AMP


----------



## Bob383rad

When I ordered the tube online, he phoned me to ask what my amp was and how I was going to use this tube. Inner space started a thread discussing the Pinnacle vs the Leben 300 in which he discussed his favorite 6sn7 tubes for these amps. It was a 2011 thread.


----------



## r one

Hi there,
  
 i've received two new tubes for test with my BA : rca 6sn7 grey glass. One of them has a silver ring at the bottom of the bottle and marked H6E, the other is marked H3E ans hasn't got this silver ring. What is the difference : year of production ?


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Yes B65 is a wonderful tube, especially the metal based ones. It was launched after the second world war in 1948 I think but is firmly in the golden 20 years of valves from late 20s to late 40s. I am lucky I have a few I use myself. They were made by GEC / Marconi / MWT / Osram in the UK but you will also find Holland examples (with Black phenolic bases). Great tube, with real delicacy and finesse..


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> Hi there,
> 
> i've received two new tubes for test with my BA : rca 6sn7 grey glass. One of them has a silver ring at the bottom of the bottle and marked H6E, the other is marked H3E ans hasn't got this silver ring. What is the difference : year of production ?




I have a few sets of greyglass. I find them a fun tube. Never seem to get two tubes the same and a lot are very crooked. To me it is part of their charm. They didn't care how they looked then they were just punching them out. They will be painted different everytime. Sometimes with internal scratches from internal electronics scraping the paint as they were installed. I even have a set with the same manufacture and batch codes that look different from each other.

To answer your question. Yes different production dates. 

RCA greyglass's are handy to tame bright tubes or headphones. My favorite 6SN7.


----------



## Oskari

r one said:


> Hi there,
> 
> i've received two new tubes for test with my BA : rca 6sn7 grey glass. One of them has a silver ring at the bottom of the bottle and marked H6E, the other is marked H3E ans hasn't got this silver ring. What is the difference : year of production ?


 
  


xcalibur255 said:


> Most of the RCAs I've seen don't have that slim band of getter visible, but there seem to have been batches where the glass coating stopped a little short and produced just that.


----------



## Oskari

nic rhodes said:


> They were made by GEC / Marconi / MWT / Osram in the UK but you will also find Holland examples (with Black phenolic bases).


 
  
 Though obviously printing B65 on a Dutch tube doesn't make it an MOV B65.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

The are labelled Marconi, Holland B65.  All clear and above board which is why I mentioned it to show people the difference. They come in nice Marconi boxes also. They are the genuine artice but are not made in the UK which is probably what most want.


----------



## Oskari

These tend to be pretty things, especially the boxes, so photos would be nice.


----------



## Stereolab42

r one said:


> Hi there,
> 
> i've received two new tubes for test with my BA : rca 6sn7 grey glass. One of them has a silver ring at the bottom of the bottle and marked H6E, the other is marked H3E ans hasn't got this silver ring. What is the difference : year of production ?


 
  
 H6E = 1944 Nov/Dec
 H3E = 1944 May/June


----------



## r one

thanks for your help guys. RCA grey glass are fun tubes with very good results for price, but not my favorites


----------



## Nic Rhodes

oskari said:


> These tend to be pretty things, especially the boxes, so photos would be nice.


 

  EASY


----------



## r one

wonderful


----------



## TonyNewman

nic rhodes said:


> EASY


 
  
 I do like me some _*purty *_valves...


----------



## Oskari

That's lovely, Nic. Thanks!
  
 Have you found a Philips code on it?


----------



## Porteroso

Makes the ts rp look cheap, I wonder how many people have directly compared the 2.


----------



## lojay

porteroso said:


> Makes the ts rp look cheap, I wonder how many people have directly compared the 2.



http://m.ebay.com/itm/201274005281?nav=SEARCH This is wildly exorbitant. Can't imagine a pair of B65 fetching $4k.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

porteroso said:


> Makes the ts rp look cheap, I wonder how many people have directly compared the 2.


 

  I can and like both, though their style is very different to each other (metal base). No obvious Delta codes on glass Oskari but some codes on the base I think. For those that are experimenting there is a much cheaper 12v version called the B36 which is affordable if you can deal with the different heater voltage. I prefer it to even the 12SX7GT. The B65 metal base also turns up  labelled as CV1988 or  6SN7GTY, certainly looks the same and carries the MO Valve Company, Hammersmith 'Z' code along with the signature metal base (and is much cheaper than the numbers quoted above). It is different from the CV1988 / 6SN7GTY STC examples from Oldway and Footscray which are black or brown phenolic based tubes.


----------



## Oskari

nic rhodes said:


> No obvious Delta codes on glass Oskari but some codes on the base I think.


 
  
 If Philips, it was likely made in Eindhoven, so wouldn't have the Heerlen delta. It could well be an MBLE-made tube (Adzam) from Brussels (L factory code) as well.
  


nic rhodes said:


> The B65 metal base also turns up  labelled as CV1988 or  6SN7GTY, certainly looks the same and carries the MO Valve Company, Hammersmith 'Z' code along with the signature metal base (and is much cheaper than the numbers quoted above).


 
  
 Yeah, that's where the real UK B65s came from.


----------



## isquirrel

The B65's I have heard had a shimmer although couldn't call them bright, however it added to the impression that they were a little bright. I thought they were lighter sounding than the TS RP's. The TS RP's seem to be at their best when driving SET's.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I think these made in Holland Marconi tubes are actually Belgium 'Mazda / Adzam's'


----------



## Oskari

That's that sorted.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B36-TUBE-Equiv-12SN7GT-CV-925-MARCONI-VALVE-AMPLIFIER-HOLLAND-NEW-OLD-STOCK-/231496510063?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35e6446a6f
  
 Two B36 Marconis made in Holland with black bases so they are not uncommon.


----------



## Badas

Anyone know anything about these:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/261800006599?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 I'm not interested. I'm just kinda curious. Could they be used as drivers in some circuits?


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Anyone know anything about these:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261800006599?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> I'm not interested. I'm just kinda curious. Could they be used as drivers in some circuits?


 
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6s7g.html
  
 It is certainly possible....
  
 However, these are pentodes, so one would probably want to strap them as single triodes and use a pair. But even then, there is no telling how they might sound....


----------



## Mechans1

I  am sorry I don't know the answerit is of course reasonable..
 I have not read nor I have I really thought about the specs, so I can't help you there. The outstanding feature here  is the top electrode which sends a very large percentage of the potentially interested members away.
  
  
 I just wanted to comment on what's happening, in at least this corner,  of the threads .  I have been a 6SN7 roller for over a decade and then had to stop collecting for a while after a divorce.  It sent me  to the headphone community, and I was delighted to see others had a passion reproduced audio and my favorite tube.  What I wasn't quite prepared for, wnas the intense interest in tubes, some of which  I had considered unobtanium. B65 was only  in my dreams,  I realized I no longer needed to buy volumes of tubes to try and give or trade away. to members of my audio group/club.   When my circumstances changed, I decided to buy only the better tubes, no more middle level stuff (with a few exceptions)  I had a couple of battle worn Brimar Black and one grey CV1988 6SN7GTY, which I really liked and decided in my usual collector mindset that I need some better examples and bought 2 pair of the Brown Base CV1988s one tube of which I am using as my preamp tube for my -don't ridicule me for this- SinglePower Extreme which for all of it's  former engineer crimes sounds really good to my ears.
 I am also a follower of Audio Asylum's Tube Asylum and there free market place.  One of the better known contributors advertised who advertised NOS NIB Mullard CV181's NOS NIB  of fairly recent production= early 80s.  I was so happy that guy who opinions I treasured was respected so  similar to my own. 
 I bought a pair of the smoked glass Mullard CV 181    they are smoked glass with appropriate marks .on  the tubes  I listened to them for hours and found them very, very enjoyable, not lacking the bass that others seem to find. I bought one more for a different application.. No regrets even thought they were expensive and that the seller has warned me about overtaxing the filament.
 After Tax season is over and when I may have some spending money I think I will try your top electrode tubes.  I have used one in a past amplifier and found it to be no trouble at all.
 I could use a primer on the jargon and meaning of the current contributors, thanks in advance- Steve


----------



## Khragon

Hi guys,
  
 Is this a match pair in your opinion? Hickok TV-7 tested
 TS 6SN7 BGRP #1
 Triode 1/2: 84/90 (min 50)    --- Mutal conductance:  Triode 1/2: 2100/2250 (min 1250)
  
 TS 6SN7 BGRP #2
 Triode 1/2: 90/100 (min 50)  --- Mutal conductance:  Triode 1/2: 2250/2500 (min 1250)
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Mechans1

I found the sound of the TS round plate tubes to correlate poorly with testing. Of the three pairs I own the pair with mediocre test scores are the best sounding by far,  and validated by my audio friends.
  That said the only choice you have if you want to get them is to buy tubes that test wellas in this case.  The numbers look fine for transconductance and match well for a pair. 
 Good Luck and Best-


----------



## dminches

khragon said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Is this a match pair in your opinion? Hickok TV-7 tested
> TS 6SN7 BGRP #1
> ...


 
  
 What is the application?


----------



## Khragon

dminches said:


> What is the application?


 
  
 Headphone amp of course 
 They're my tubes, I plan to sell them on ebay and wonder if I should pair them up and split them out.
 Using them in my WA5 I don't hear any imbalance...


----------



## Mechans1

I will prolly get flamed for saying it but the tests simply show that the tubes are functioning and precious little else.  I have used pairs, that I have assembled from slightly mismatched singles and never heard a difference in volume, or tone in some nor frequency band.
 As for yours,   I would put them up as a pair just  be up front and honest about the testing you have on them.
 Out of curiosity did you say you used them in a pair application? Did you hear any significant differences in the two channels?  If you can say you didn't then just tell the truth.  If you did you can also be honest and say in very sensitive applications you heard a slight or-moderate or-all hell broke lose and you ran screaming from the room muttering solid state solid state !
 Call me an idiot but I would have bought them as an slightly imperfect but  likely functional pair.
 How did they sound BTW, magical or ordinary?   I know you really  can't say if they weren't exceptional. I own 4 blah sounding TS RPs myself..


----------



## TonyNewman

mechans1 said:


> I will prolly get flamed for saying it but the tests simply show that the tubes are functioning and precious little else.  I have used pairs, that I have assembled from slightly mismatched singles and never heard a difference in volume, or tone in some nor frequency band.
> As for yours,   I would put them up as a pair just  be up front and honest about the testing you have on them.
> Out of curiosity did you say you used them in a pair application? Did you hear any significant differences in the two channels?  If you can say you didn't then just tell the truth.  If you did you can also be honest and say in very sensitive applications you heard a slight or-moderate or-all hell broke lose and you ran screaming from the room muttering solid state solid state !
> Call me an idiot but I would have bought them as an slightly imperfect but  likely functional pair.
> How did they sound BTW, magical or ordinary?   I know you really  can't say if they weren't exceptional. I own 4 blah sounding TS RPs myself..


 
  
 No flames from me. I match type of tube and the internals - and nothing else.
  
 For example, I have several 6F8Gs with matching internals that are labelled 4 different ways - RCA, GE ...etc. I swap between them with no problems that I can detect. Bollix to tube matching.


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> No flames from me. I match type of tube and the internals - and nothing else.
> 
> For example, I have several 6F8Gs with matching internals that are labelled 4 different ways - RCA, GE ...etc. I swap between them with no problems that I can detect. Bollix to tube matching.


 

 Same here. As long as they are close. I don't worry about them. As long as they are the same internals.


----------



## MIKELAP

tonynewman said:


> mechans1 said:
> 
> 
> > I will prolly get flamed for saying it but the tests simply show that the tubes are functioning and precious little else.  I have used pairs, that I have assembled from slightly mismatched singles and never heard a difference in volume, or tone in some nor frequency band.
> ...


 
 That's what i do also with my 6F8G i match the internals and they sound good to me .Actually i dont buy matched pairs for any of my amps waste of money imo and if there is a difference i dont hear it .


----------



## jibzilla

So I guess I'm a little late to the b65 party but here's mine
  
  
 I'm going to throw a word of caution out there though. These tubes are not $1k. The euro and gbp tanked and I got mine for under $300 shipped so if you live in the States I would not pay over $300. Also these are not always the best match for your amp and headphone. With my peak/volcano and lcd-3f's it is awfully mid-centric and while I enjoy the sound this was not very well received at a stl. headphone meet...err my much less expensive stax setup was much better received. At least to me a 5692 redbase is much closer to neutral and just as good in it's own way and was only $120 shipped. Does anyone have a closest to neutral 6sn7 that they recommend?


----------



## Mechans1

Neutral is in the ear  of the listener .
 RCA red base 5962s are not, IMHO a neutral tube.  To me they have a soft edged warm tone.  If that is what you like I recommend the NU  grey glass, not the black glass which sounds more clean and more neutral to me.  NU BTW = National Union, they aren't nearly as expensive as the RCA 5962s .  If I were you, I would try both NUs.  My choice for a really good U.S. 6SN7 is no surprise the Sylvania W.  Metal base is highly sought after,  and the taller bottle also desirable, but you will get a good idea of what they sound like with the regular black base short bottle, which are abundant and reasonably priced.  If you want to stay with European tubes I prefer the Brimar CV 1988 6SN7GTY usually black glass brown miconal base. That's a couple to try.


----------



## buldogge

^^^I agree...The NU black glass are quite neutral...very clear/concise.  I also like the Tung Sol Mouse Ears, although they are a little "softer".
  
 Waiting on a couple Ken Rad GT staggered plates...What should I expect of these???
  
 -Mark in St. Louis


----------



## Mechans1

I don't know where it became needed that Ken Rad had to have the staggered plates,  I don't think they sound _all that much _different, but they are certainly more sought after.  You should expect them to have very good deep and notable bass.  That is what they are known for, their bottom end, and they are good at it.   If you are a basshead you'll probably love them.  I don't want to poison your thoughts on them any further critique.  I hope you know that the clear and the black glass KR tubes sound alike, but the black look better.


----------



## No_One411

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that for amps that auto-bias, and even those that you can manually bias, tube matching is generally irrelevant, since you can tune for the correct amount of current draw. 
  
 It also depends on which tubes you are using. Preamp versus output.


----------



## Xcalibur255

National Union tubes are chameleons.  They change pretty radically depending upon how they are biased and how many volts are on the plates.  This is true of all tubes of course but in my experience the variation is usually not so pronounced. 
  
 With fewer volts they are the softest and most colored sounding 6SN7 I know, and not always in a good way.  Run them harder and they come alive with strong dyamics and unusually aggressive attack for a 6SN7.


----------



## buldogge

mechans1 said:


> I don't know where it became needed that Ken Rad had to have the staggered plates,  I don't think they sound _all that much _different, but they are certainly more sought after.  You should expect them to have very good deep and notable bass.  That is what they are known for, their bottom end, and they are good at it.   If you are a basshead you'll probably love them.  I don't want to poison your thoughts on them any further critique.  I hope you know that the clear and the black glass KR tubes sound alike, but the black look better.


 

 I have no idea about the staggering, other than what I've read here...I just found a couple oddballs for a "reasonable price" and they were both staggered.  Also, both are clear glass...FWIW.
  
 -Mark


----------



## buldogge

no_one411 said:


> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that for amps that auto-bias, and even those that you can manually bias, tube matching is generally irrelevant, since you can tune for the correct amount of current draw.
> 
> It also depends on which tubes you are using. Preamp versus output.


 

 My only experience with tube rolling is on my (2) Little Dot amps (MK II and MK III), and I never buy matched pairs...My 2c.
  
 -Mark in St. Louis


----------



## Mechans1

You want matched tubes, usually only the  output tubes if the amp is auto bias.  If the amp has  manual bias then you can "dial in" the bias current for each output tube and matching not that important.  Perversely, I believe the name for the manual bias type amp is "fixed" bias, as strange as that sounds.


----------



## JamieMcC

jibzilla said:


> So I guess I'm a little late to the b65 party but here's mine
> 
> 
> I'm going to throw a word of caution out there though. These tubes are not $1k. The euro and gbp tanked and I got mine for under $300 shipped so if you live in the States I would not pay over $300. Also these are not always the best match for your amp and headphone. With my peak/volcano and lcd-3f's it is awfully mid-centric and while I enjoy the sound this was not very well received at a stl. headphone meet...err my much less expensive stax setup was much better received. At least to me a 5692 redbase is much closer to neutral and just as good in it's own way and was only $120 shipped. Does anyone have a closest to neutral 6sn7 that they recommend?


 
  
 I have always thought the Russian Melz 6N8S/6SN7 with the holes in the side to be a very detailed and neutral/natural sounding tube. Its a favourite of mine they are around the $75 mark. My NU black glass in which is another favourite is a few steps to the warmer side I would say in comparison and I like the density of tone and more intimate nature of the NU with softer female vocal jazz, folk etc.  
  
 I would be interested to hear out the Russian Melz compares to some of the more expensive 6sn7 super tubes like the B65.


----------



## jibzilla

xcalibur255 said:


> National Union tubes are chameleons.  They change pretty radically depending upon how they are biased and how many volts are on the plates.  This is true of all tubes of course but in my experience the variation is usually not so pronounced.
> 
> With fewer volts they are the softest and most colored sounding 6SN7 I know, and not always in a good way.  Run them harder and they come alive with strong dyamics and unusually aggressive attack for a 6SN7.


 

 I saw you mention that you have never come across a neutral 6sn7. However what is your closest to neutral that you have heard?


----------



## jibzilla

JamieMcC the b65 is a super tube with the peak/volcano and Lcd-X. Not so much with the 3f.


----------



## coinmaster

Does anyone know any 6SN7 tubes that are more solid state sounding? Neutral, fast, clean, crisp. I don't really want to color the sound.


----------



## buldogge

coinmaster said:


> Does anyone know any 6SN7 tubes that are more solid state sounding? Neutral, fast, clean, crisp. I don't really want to color the sound.


 
  
 I don't have a ton of rolling with these, but in my limited experience I found the Sylvania GTBs to be pretty straight forward/SS sounding...FWIW.
  
 -Mark n St. Louis


----------



## jibzilla

coinmaster said:


> Does anyone know any 6SN7 tubes that are more solid state sounding? Neutral, fast, clean, crisp. I don't really want to color the sound.


 

 I did my own bit of research lately and it seems like enthusiasts think the 6sn7w is the most neutral. I just pulled the trigger on one, a tall bottle black base but it's $175 so maybe wait till I report back. I'm having a hard time finding a neutral tube as well. Out of ten only the 5692 redbase seems close to neutral imo.


----------



## Mechans1

The most SS sounding tubes that I came across are  Hytrons.  Very quick clean and to my ears uncolored.  There are at least two variants, the older Hyrtron  and then CBS bought them and they became CBS Hytrons.  You won't miss the difference when you are looking for them, CBS labeled them clearly.  The early 50's pre CBS tube are the most desirable. 
 I haven't had a lot of positive experiences with new production  6SN7s, but have heard the Tung Sol is pretty  good and should not flavor your sound. I can't swear on it but you might want to investigate that avenue. 
 The Sylvania GTBs that were mentioned are on the richer side of things and while very good tubes for most, may not be what your after IMHO of course, and no slight intended..


----------



## Xcalibur255

I would have to agree that as well.  Hytrons have less midrange bloom than most other 6SN7 type tubes.  The post-roundplate Tung Sols such as the mouse ear are also fairly even handed, though generally more lit up in the upper midrange and lower treble than the Hytrons are.  Most of the British valves such as the Brimars are nicely even-handed though I wouldn't call them neutral.  Just not unbalanced they way some tubes are.


----------



## jibzilla

mechans1 said:


> The most SS sounding tubes that I came across are  Hytrons.  Very quick clean and to my ears uncolored.  There are at least two variants, the older Hyrtron  and then CBS bought them and they became CBS Hytrons.  You won't miss the difference when you are looking for them, CBS labeled them clearly.  The early 50's pre CBS tube are the most desirable.
> I haven't had a lot of positive experiences with new production  6SN7s, but have heard the Tung Sol is pretty  good and should not flavor your sound. I can't swear on it but you might want to investigate that avenue.
> The Sylvania GTBs that were mentioned are on the richer side of things and while very good tubes for most, may not be what your after IMHO of course, and no slight intended..


 

 I have the tungsol and a sofia princess and I would avoid. Just me though. At least they were free with my peak/volcano.


----------



## r one

coinmaster said:


> Does anyone know any 6SN7 tubes that are more solid state sounding? Neutral, fast, clean, crisp. I don't really want to color the sound.


 

 for me  TS rp's and Brimar 6SN7 GT black glass are very neutral.


----------



## Mechans1

I like the "W"s myself but didn't think of it sounding SS like by any means.  It has wonderful sound staging ability and a sweet treble,  good but often  recessed bass.  The magic in this one  is in the midrange a glorious beautiful upper mid but not SS.  You will like what you hear anyway!


----------



## lojay

mechans1 said:


> The most SS sounding tubes that I came across are  Hytrons.  Very quick clean and to my ears uncolored.  There are at least two variants, the older Hyrtron  and then CBS bought them and they became CBS Hytrons.  You won't miss the difference when you are looking for them, CBS labeled them clearly.  The early 50's pre CBS tube are the most desirable.
> I haven't had a lot of positive experiences with new production  6SN7s, but have heard the Tung Sol is pretty  good and should not flavor your sound. I can't swear on it but you might want to investigate that avenue.
> The Sylvania GTBs that were mentioned are on the richer side of things and while very good tubes for most, may not be what your after IMHO of course, and no slight intended..




I have most premium 6SN7 variants apart from the B65. I used them on the Woo WA5 and Apex Teton. I would rank the tubes in terms of neutrality as follows: CBS/Hytron 5692 brown base > Sylvania 6SN7W metal base > Tungsol BGRP 6SN7 > Mullard CV181

The Hytron is by far the most SS like. But it still has that bit of 6SN7 midrange bloom. Perhaps 6SN7s are naturally less neutral?


----------



## Frihed89

Sylvania 6SN7W is as close as it gets.  There are at least 3 versions.  All are expensive.


----------



## jibzilla

frihed89 said:


> Sylvania 6SN7W is as close as it gets.  There are at least 3 versions.  All are expensive.


 

 This is what I found after looking around bing and google for a while. I have a tall bottle on the way. I also took the advice of some others and bought a pre cbs hytron. Lojay I think the 5692 and hyton are two different tubes but I could be wrong. I have a 5692 rca red and raytheon brown base and I find them decently neutral. Crossing my fingers and thank you all for the suggestions.


----------



## lojay

jibzilla said:


> This is what I found after looking around bing and google for a while. I have a tall bottle on the way. I also took the advice of some others and bought a pre cbs hytron. Lojay I think the 5692 and hyton are two different tubes but I could be wrong. I have a 5692 rca red and raytheon brown base and I find them decently neutral. Crossing my fingers and thank you all for the suggestions.


 
  
 Mine is the CBS JAN-CHY-5692, not the Hytron. It has a brown base with red letters. So I will get an even better sound with the pre CBS version?


----------



## Skylab

This idea that SS = Neutral is not really valid, IMO.


----------



## Xcalibur255

skylab said:


> This idea that SS = Neutral is not really valid, IMO.


 
  
 A good point to raise.  SS runs the gamut just like anything else.  It's also possible to take two platforms which produce the same FR graphs and have them sound tonally different anyway due to other factors that don't show up in just that one measurement.  The question for "netural" should really just be a quest for whatever sound personally 'clicks' for each individual person.


----------



## tagosaku

frihed89 said:


> Sylvania 6SN7W is as close as it gets.  There are at least 3 versions.  All are expensive.


 

 you mean the short one?
  
 Metal base and non metal base long bottle sounds very different from the short bottle. And metal base and non metal base sounds different from each other too.


----------



## gibosi

xcalibur255 said:


> A good point to raise.  SS runs the gamut just like anything else.


 
  
 Yes indeed. I have a Little Dot 1+ adapted to roll 6SN7 and other medium-mu double triodes in the driver stage and rollable op-amps in the output stage.  In my experience rolling op-amps in the 1+, some are bassy and warm while others are cool and thin. And further, some are wet and liquid while others are rather dry and grainy. Like virtually everything else in audio, some op-amps might be called "neutral" but certainly not all of them.


----------



## Oskari

skylab said:


> This idea that SS = Neutral is not really valid, IMO.


 
  


xcalibur255 said:


> A good point to raise.  SS runs the gamut just like anything else.  …


 
  


gibosi said:


> Yes indeed. …


 
  
 Agreed.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 I gave up on neutral a long time ago. I read heaps of reviews on the Oppo HA-1 SS being very neutral and a lot of praise for it. I couldn't stand it. It ruined all music. Eventually changed the DAC which fixed up the sound.
  
 Also why roll tubes to get a SS or neutral type of sound? I have never got that. I want tubes to sound different to SS. It is the whole point. Otherwise just buy a SS amp then you don't have the tube replacement problem. I hear someone says it is great and it sounds SS I make a mental note to not get the tube. I hunt for lush and musical.
  
 Just my thoughts.


----------



## coinmaster

I just want realism. I want to close my eyes and have it sound like the band is in the room. Hard to get that with colored sound.


----------



## Mechans1

Yes but realism isn't usually a function of tube or not tube systems.  I didn't hear really super sound staging and a 3D effect with my large speaker system until I got tube monobloc output amps.  The amps were just great they had something really special in them.  I don't know what is was/is . 
 It is OK I think if you generalize a little bit.  SS can often mean a clean crisp sharp edged attack etc. and  that we all know when the SS flavor is really overexpressed.  Just like we think of tubes as being capable of being warm soft syrupy rolled off etc.  I can tell you there are SS amps that sound like the cliché tube amp I just described and tube amps that with your eyes closed would swear are SS.


----------



## Porteroso

coinmaster said:


> I just want realism. I want to close my eyes and have it sound like the band is in the room. Hard to get that with colored sound.


 
 Yeah, but how many times do you really just hear a band? Aren't you almost always hearing it after it's been amplified with speakers? I've heard very few live performances where I thought "wow, that sounds really good." Most of the time, I'm left imagining what the band could have sounded like had the amps/speakers/room not been so bad. Good tubes might not be neutral, but they are balanced. They might give color, but the best tubes I have heard, well, it's hard to tell if they're giving color, or allowing the recording to speak its own color. All of this is relative, but any tube amp will not be SS sounding, by nature.
  
 Of the most balanced, least colored, most transparent tubes I have, it is the TS round plate. It and the National Union are vastly superior to everything else, in my opinion. I do have these in 6F8G, but it is electrically equivalent to 6SN7, and many people think that either the 6F8G sounds the same, or slightly better.


----------



## coinmaster

porteroso said:


> Yeah, but how many times do you really just hear a band? Aren't you almost always hearing it after it's been amplified with speakers? I've heard very few live performances where I thought "wow, that sounds really good." Most of the time, I'm left imagining what the band could have sounded like had the amps/speakers/room not been so bad. Good tubes might not be neutral, but they are balanced. They might give color, but the best tubes I have heard, well, it's hard to tell if they're giving color, or allowing the recording to speak its own color. All of this is relative, but any tube amp will not be SS sounding, by nature.
> 
> Of the most balanced, least colored, most transparent tubes I have, it is the TS round plate. It and the National Union are vastly superior to everything else, in my opinion. I do have these in 6F8G, but it is electrically equivalent to 6SN7, and many people think that either the 6F8G sounds the same, or slightly better.


 

  I'm not talking about a live performance as in comparing it to a concert. I'm talking about having it sound believable and not like it's coming out of an artificial source.


----------



## TonyNewman

porteroso said:


> ....
> Of the most balanced, least colored, most transparent tubes I have, it is the TS round plate. It and the National Union are vastly superior to everything else, in my opinion. I do have these in 6F8G, but it is electrically equivalent to 6SN7, and many people think that either the 6F8G sounds the same, or slightly better.


 
  
 From a tube performance point of view I am totally on board with this. NU has much more coloration than the TS RP. Both are superb tubes.


----------



## Badas

porteroso said:


> Yeah, but how many times do you really just hear a band? Aren't you almost always hearing it after it's been amplified with speakers? I've heard very few live performances where I thought "wow, that sounds really good." Most of the time, I'm left imagining what the band could have sounded like had the amps/speakers/room not been so bad. Good tubes might not be neutral, but they are balanced. They might give color, but the best tubes I have heard, well, it's hard to tell if they're giving color, or allowing the recording to speak its own color. All of this is relative, but any tube amp will not be SS sounding, by nature.


 
  
 Correct there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I just don't get this search for SS sounding tubes. Who said SS was the standard?
  
 The whole point of tubes is to colour and tweak to a sound signature that is pleasing to you.
  
 As I'm the only one who uses my rig. I don't give a flying stuff about SS, neutral or accurate. It has to move me.


----------



## Porteroso

coinmaster said:


> I'm not talking about a live performance as in comparing it to a concert. I'm talking about having it sound believable and not like it's coming out of an artificial source.


 
 I simply hear nothing of the sort with either tube I mentioned. When you do a/b testing, there are differences, but among good tubes, they present a sound that you can completely lose yourself in. I think you are way overthinking this, if you think that you are going to try the best 6SN7 tubes available, and still not be able to immerse yourself in the music. I am a violinist, so I am around real, live music every day for hours, and while I do have tubes that would be distracting, I just don't listen to them. Try the TS round plate, if you must have the best, most transparent, most detailed 6SN7 tube you can get. You will pay a boatload of money for it, and the reason is because it's just that good. People love music with it.


----------



## isquirrel

I don't need any convincing the TS RP BG is the ultimate 6SN7 - my old friend worked as an engineer for TS and he says the 6SN7 's were engineered to be the superior tube, he said we knew were creating something special with that tube. I have Briamr's, RCA's, Ken Rad's blah blah. Nothing holds a candle to a good set of these babies.
  
 I am clearly addicted to them I now have 16 sets. Yes there are differences between them but they are not major, funnily enough everyone raves about the VT-231's - they were designated that because their primary primary purpose was for the military, they didn't care so much about specs - only testing a couple of pairs out of batches - and if they passed they were stored or deployed. As a result you can get some real fails there. I have found that's it trial and error and trying my best to match a set up that have the same volume output.  
  
 Its rubbish that the one's marked VT-231 should be worth more or less. They are exactly the same tube.
  
 Just bought a nice NOS set that test well for US $640 pair. I predict they will be up to $800 by the end of the year.


----------



## coinmaster

Does anyone know how the Winged "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G sounds?


----------



## Badas

coinmaster said:


> Does anyone know how the Winged "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G sounds?


 

 Wrong thread. Should be on the 6AS7G thread.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/1815#post_11402714
  
 However. I have tried about 9 pairs. Two pairs are golden and sound very nice and lush. One other pair is marginal it has a little noise that could go with burn time. The other 6 pairs are either noisy or completely faulty (I believe I got sold seconds). If you get a good pair they sound nice. Half way between RCA 6AS7G and Tung-Sol 6AS7G (the best). The other thing is the Russian tubes runs very hot. I don't like it for that reason. There are better choices out there. Sylvania 6080 is very very nice. It is what I'm using right now.


----------



## jibzilla

Well it twas not me that brought up SS. I have tried out many a portable and desktop SS and yes they run the gamut imo. However I don't think it is a bad idea to seek out what sounds neutral if that is what you are looking for. For me SS rules in speed, prat, and bass. Tube rules in 3d, natural tone, and micro detail. However those rules are not set in stone and I have come across SS amps that do tube things and tube amps that do SS things. However I have never come across a SS amp or a tube amp that does all 3 of the things I mentioned for each category above and while my peak/volcano does speed and prat it is not perfect and is missing that visceral bass impact that I have gotten from many SS amps and I have found a decent amount 6sn7 tubes to be a little bass shy. 
  
 The lack of bass from the peak/volcano, the lack of bass and mid range bloom from a decent amount of 6sn7's I have tried and the fact that the 3f is a little shy in the bass department can sometimes lead to a too mid-centric and bass shy/lean listen. I guess more specifically than a neutral tube I'm looking for a 6sn7 with a little more bass impact and less mid range bloom. It does not have to be perfect I have found the ken-rad and bad boy to have plenty of bass and the 5692's to be a lil less bloomy and very pleasurable sounding.   
  
 I think the peak/volcano is a great amp and I doubt there is any other amp out there that gets so much out of a 6sn7 tube, only one at that. However I think that each headphone is only going to have a few tubes it works with and I can tell ya while the b65 is rare and expensive it is def. not the answer for the lcd-3f as it def. has a midrange bloom and it prob. the most bass light 6sn7 I own. I kept one marconi b65 cause my speakers like it and I have a sub8 to do whatever I want to the bass with a remote but I sold my osram b65 and probably quite a few others.
  
 What stinks is that my X's really liked allot of my 6sn7's. The midrange bloom and lack of bass worked really well with the X's analytical mids and bass emphasized sound. Hardly any headroom though on my peak/volcano and I prefer the smoother more neutral sound of the 3f compared to the openness and detail of the X. I also have to majorly disagree with many in the lcd-3 thread saying that the 3f and X sound a like. To me they are VERY different sounding and I have/had them side by side. These two headphones are night and day different sounding in the bass, similar in treble, but yeah night and day in the bass. If I had to pick out a headphone that sounds most like the X it is not the 3f or hd800 but the 007mk2 with me preferring the X by quite a margin without the over accentuated openness and detail of the 007mk2.
  
 I do think there's some hope though. While not "the tube" I have at least 4 tubes that sound very good and I have a pre cbs hytron and 6sn7w long bottle black base on the way and if those do not work at least I will have a base line from where you guys are coming from and the melz and tsrp looks like they got a few votes too so I could always try them.


----------



## TonyNewman

isquirrel said:


> ...
> 
> Just bought a nice NOS set that test well for US $640 pair. I predict they will be up to $800 by the end of the year.


 
  
 Very likely. Have you tried the National Union 6F8G? Only tube I have heard that comes close to the TS RP and adds a lovely sweetness to the sound as well.
  
 The TS RP is quite neutral, but wonderfully good. For a driver that adds something special to the sound, and comes close to the other qualities of the TS RP, the 6F8G NU is worth a try. It is a very special tube.


----------



## rosgr63

There are other 6SN7's that are as good if not better.


----------



## Badas

rosgr63 said:


> There are other 6SN7's that are as good if not better.




Like what? 

TS RP is supose to be the best and I have not heard better than the NU 6F8G.


----------



## Bob383rad

My B65 with my Apex Pinnacle with Senn 800's balanced has plenty of bass, although not as much as a SS amp might have. It really sounds sublime with all types of music. I have thought about adding the LCD 3F, but now I'm not so sure.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> Like what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'd like to know the answer to that too.
  
 I have TS RPs and NUs. The TS RP are technically the better all around performer to my ears, by a slim margin, but the NUs add a sweet warmth to the sound that is quite special. If there is a 6SN7 out there that can beat either of them please share that information (question directed to rosgr63).


----------



## Porteroso

rosgr63 said:


> There are other 6SN7's that are as good if not better.


 
 He is talking about the 6F8G. I would like to get a pair of NU 6SN7 one day. They are supposedly electrically equivalent, but in 6SN7, the NU often gets relegated to the middle of the pack. Until recently, the VT-99 had very little review on the web, as most people assumed it would perform like the 6SN7, but several of us have found that the NU is right up there with the TSrp, which by all accounts is either as good or better than the 6SN7 equivalent.
  
 I know this is a 6SN7 thread, but 6F8G is essentially the same thing, just with a top heater pin. And much cheaper. In 6F8G, the TS and NU are head and shoulders about everything else.


----------



## TonyNewman

porteroso said:


> He is talking about the 6F8G. I would like to get a pair of NU 6SN7 one day. They are supposedly electrically equivalent, but in 6SN7, the NU often gets relegated to the middle of the pack. Until recently, the VT-99 had very little review on the web, as most people assumed it would perform like the 6SN7, but several of us have found that the NU is right up there with the TSrp, which by all accounts is either as good or better than the 6SN7 equivalent.
> 
> I know this is a 6SN7 thread, but 6F8G is essentially the same thing, just with a top heater pin. And much cheaper. In 6F8G, the TS and NU are head and shoulders about everything else.


 
  
 Apologies - I misunderstood the original poster (rosgr63) - *I am talking only about the 6F8Gs here - TS RP and NU.*
  
 I have never heard (or seen in the flesh) a 6SN7 TS RP or NU.
  
 What I do know is the the 6F8G NU is close to the technical performance of the 6F8G TS RP and it has a lovely sweet warmth to it that I find delightful, particularly for vocals. When paired with close to neutral tubes - like the Brimar rectifier - I prefer the NU to the TS RP.


----------



## rosgr63

No offence we have talked in detail about 6F8G's and other equivalents in earlier posts sometime ago.


----------



## whirlwind

I scored me a pair of Chatham 6AS7G today.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> I scored me a pair of Chatham 6AS7G today.


 

 Wrong thread dude.
  
 Congrats tho. I saw those up for sale on eBarf. I was concidering them.
 I have 3 sets and they are by far the best 6AS7G I have. I have not listened to the 5998 tho.
  
 Enjoy them. Actually I might roll in a pair tonight. I'm using the Bendix 6080 Graphite plates and I'm not really enjoying them.


----------



## whirlwind

thanks.....my bad on posting here....did not know it was 6SN7 thread  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I was considering a pair of graphite plate 6080's also.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> thanks.....my bad on posting here....did not know it was 6SN7 thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It's done now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 6080 Graphite plates. If you like dry. Go for it.
  
 I like lush. Chatham 6AS7G. Yummy.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > thanks.....my bad on posting here....did not know it was 6SN7 thread
> ...


 
  
 I think I will grab a pair of 5998 while I have the cash and explore the 6080's later on.
  
 Heck, I do not even have my OTL yet....I am just getting ready


----------



## JamieMcC

whirlwind said:


> I think I will grab a pair of 5998 while I have the cash and explore the 6080's later on.
> 
> Heck, I do not even have my OTL yet....I am just getting ready


 
  
 You would be very welcome here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/1830#post_11426714
  
 In case you have not seen it take a look at Nick Tams excellent assessment of the top tier 6as7g/6080 tubes 5998, WE421a, GEC 6as7g, Bendix etc the pics have disappeared (only recently) but its still very handy for reference  and you can always google up a image of the tube in question.
  
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


----------



## whirlwind

jamiemcc said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I think I will grab a pair of 5998 while I have the cash and explore the 6080's later on.
> ...


 
 Thanks, for that link.


----------



## jibzilla

bob383rad said:


> My B65 with my Apex Pinnacle with Senn 800's balanced has plenty of bass, although not as much as a SS amp might have. It really sounds sublime with all types of music. I have thought about adding the LCD 3F, but now I'm not so sure.


 

 The lcd-3f has as much bass as the hd800. Pretty even in that department imo. where the rest of the audeze line in bassier. However I do not recommend running lcd's and hd 800's off the same amp, even one as nice as the pinnacle and I have owned the Peak/Volcano for a while now so I know pete don't play.
  
 The lcd's and hd800's are just way too different sound signature wise. One is dark, the other bright and even the brightest of the group X and 3f I would describe as slightly dark. The X is closer sound wise(more open and detailed than the 3f) to the hd800 but I don't get allot of headroom on the X and I would have to imagine the same for the pinnacle.
  
 I have read that the hd800 with the pinnacle is on of the best headphone amp pairings ever so I would say it sways in that direction. You could add a 3f but I doubt it sounds any better than my peak/volcano with it. If you want the hd800 imo. you have to go with hifiman if you want to run both off the same amp. I listened to the he-560 recently with a bmc pure dac and it was wonderful, butt ugly, but a very large improvement in build quality, weight, and comfort while retaining the very good sq. of the he-500. A very nice headphone if you can get past the looks and the he-1000 and lcd-Z is coming out soon as well. For Audeze owners you are stuck with the hd650 as your best option. The silver driver's are brighter than the black driver but like the X and 3f I would say they are slightly dark. I really wish sennheiser would make a slightly darker hd850 but the hd650 is still very nice and with the new furutech cable have a real $1k headphone feel and sound.
  
 To each his own but I will never pay over $300 for a 6sn7 tube. The b65 is nice and I have not listened to a tsrp yet but if you guys want rare the sweedish military and telfunken make the tsrp and b65 look very common place. The Sweedish military as far as I can tell has not been up for sale in over 2 years and the telfunken's are shrouded in mystery with many people claiming telfunken never made a 6sn7. I can get a telfunken locally right now but the guy won't come off $350. Isquirrel there is a pair of tsrp's on head-fi for $450 quad for $850, tsrp's are rare but still not going over $300.


----------



## Bob383rad

I'm really happy with the hd800 for now. I also have the k812 and the hd600. I'm happy with a Chord Hugo as the DAC. The Pinnacle really sounds great with the B65. Every time I think about another can, I challenge myself as to what I would enjoy more than the hd800.


----------



## jibzilla

bob383rad said:


> I'm really happy with the hd800 for now. I also have the k812 and the hd600. I'm happy with a Chord Hugo as the DAC. The Pinnacle really sounds great with the B65. Every time I think about another can, I challenge myself as to what I would enjoy more than the hd800.


 
 I like the hd600 and 800 as well but the hot treble usually leaves my ears ringing. I have tried to get rid of that hot treble but the only thing I have found that truly did it was a metrum hex with a dna stratus and that is very expensive and I don't feel like starting all over again. I can only imagine the pinnacle taking it a notch further than the dna but it costs damn near what my whole setup cost. 
  
 I have had much better luck trying to brighten darker sounding headphones. Something as cheap as a used schiit mojo for around $500 can really get you decently extended treble without the ringing on a lcd headphone, a bryston bha-1 will take it even further and a peak/volcao and liquid fire even further but by then I think you reach the limits of the best amps out there for the lcd, maybe a gsx-mk2 but I have yet to listen to that.
  
 The hd800 and certainly the 600 have been around allot longer than the lcd's and they're more popular. I'm not surprised that there are not any uber doober close to 5 figure amps out there for them and sadly I don't think you will see any amps like that till a hd850 is released. However I see planar's really taking off in the next decade and hifiman also makes great offerings that pair well with the hd800 off the same amp...sorry for going OT.


----------



## rosgr63

jibzilla said:


> To each his own but I will never pay over $300 for a 6sn7 tube. The b65 is nice and I have not listened to a tsrp yet but if you guys want rare the sweedish military and telfunken make the tsrp and b65 look very common place. The Sweedish military as far as I can tell has not been up for sale in over 2 years and the telfunken's are shrouded in mystery with many people claiming telfunken never made a 6sn7. I can get a telfunken locally right now but the guy won't come off $350. Isquirrel there is a pair of tsrp's on head-fi for $450 quad for $850, tsrp's are rare but still not going over $300.


 
  
 Telefunken 6SN7, Swedish Standard 33S30 and other rare tubes are also sold privately and never make their way to ebay.
  
 Despite the high prices they demand they are not necessarily *ALL* that better than other tubes.
  
 A lot depends on the system and personal preferences.
  
 Finally don't forget there is a European Black Glass Round Plates 6SN7.


----------



## JamieMcC

Couldn't resist posting these rare beauties not 6sn7 but Nickel plated E80cc which are interchangeable in my amp. These are the only ones I have ever seen and the only pics of them on the net seem to be the one I have posted. They are glorious sounding  tubes which I only use on rare occasions conscious of their rarity


----------



## rosgr63

Rarer still, I think are the RCA CRC 38142 with Nickel Plates


----------



## jibzilla

rosgr63 said:


> Telefunken 6SN7, Swedish Standard 33S30 and other rare tubes are also sold privately and never make their way to ebay.
> 
> Despite the high prices they demand they are not necessarily *ALL* that better than other tubes.
> 
> ...


 

 I would love to hear a 33S30 but I think I might try to score a single tsrp and call it a day. The 3f is more tube specific than the X but I still have a fairly large collection that works well with it. The pre cbs hytron is suppose to make it here tomorrow.


----------



## rosgr63

The Hytron is a nice tube, you'll like it I am sure.


----------



## Bob383rad

I can listen to the Pinnacle with the HD800's for hours without the treble assault. I have the cans balanced with Cardas 4 pin cable at Todd's suggestion. He's a great person to deal with.I'll await the reviews of the new HiFi man 1000 cans.


----------



## dminches

My understanding is that the VT231 and non-VT231 tubes were the same tube but the VT231 measured to closer tolerance.  So, there is a difference but who knows if you can hear it.
  
 I haven't seen the prices of these tubes rise much in the past 2-3.
  
  
 Quote:


isquirrel said:


> I don't need any convincing the TS RP BG is the ultimate 6SN7 - my old friend worked as an engineer for TS and he says the 6SN7 's were engineered to be the superior tube, he said we knew were creating something special with that tube. I have Briamr's, RCA's, Ken Rad's blah blah. Nothing holds a candle to a good set of these babies.
> 
> I am clearly addicted to them I now have 16 sets. Yes there are differences between them but they are not major, funnily enough everyone raves about the VT-231's - they were designated that because their primary primary purpose was for the military, they didn't care so much about specs - only testing a couple of pairs out of batches - and if they passed they were stored or deployed. As a result you can get some real fails there. I have found that's it trial and error and trying my best to match a set up that have the same volume output.
> 
> ...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Some 33S30 were on ebay a few month ago  and their German brother so they do come up, but were too rich for me. I fould that what is the best tube in one location rarely translates as the best in other situations though certainly there is groups of better tubes and others less good.


----------



## Mechans1

I missed a pair of the Swedish 33S30's that would have come to me from a private seller who has consistently sold me superior examples of true NOS tubes.  Unfortunately I used most of them as they came to me at the height of my tube rolling experimentation.
 I have bought some really uninspired TSRPs I have 3 pairs, only one pair sounds truly special.  I think you have to be careful about generalization on a single tube or lot of tubes, because condition is very important. Sometimes a designation like VT231 seems to correlate with a better sounding tube than it's GT civilian clone, regardless of the engineers intent.  The statement that  3 rivet 3 hole plates are the same as the GTs  (2 hole plates of this apparent design that  otherwise  seem to be  " Identical' to   the 51-53 GT tube is very wrong, despite the  "expert" source.  Len over on audio asylum dissected the tubes in question and the Bad Boy seemed to much more  stoutly designed with seriously much more copper wire length and gauge. Ultimately it means doing your homework. 
 I am an older fart  and think many of you rush headlong into the world of tubes buying only very expensive rarities.  It would be very instructive to try less expensive tubes to give you a perspective and really knowing that there is no "ordinary 6SN7" that would satisfy your needs and as I already said give you the background that would makes sense of buying the rarities, otherwise it just a  pissing contest.
  
 P.S.  The domino 5998s are excellent and that 6080s OK  but not as good.
 To whomever expressed being anxious about finding them.  They are already in short supply.  I bought a couple of the Western Electric 421As and one of the two is pretty weak, so _caveat emptor_.


----------



## Porteroso

TS rp have risen since I got my WA6. Used to be around 400, easy to find a matched pair on ebay. Now, not so much.
  
 By the way, if there are better tubes than the 6F8G NU (in either 6F8G or 6SN7), other than the TSrp, what are they? Aside from mythical tubes that one cannot source, that is. I know that neither RCA grey glass or red base stand up, TS flat plate is a no, Melz is a no, Raytheon is a no, have not tried KenRad yet, but by all accounts, no.


----------



## Stereolab42

Well-spoken Mechans1. The correlation between tube audio quality and price is weak at best. Past certain breakpoints, personal preference and individual tube variations seem to matter far more.


----------



## jibzilla

mechans1 said:


> I missed a pair of the Swedish 33S30's that would have come to me from a private seller who has consistently sold me superior examples of true NOS tubes.  Unfortunately I used most of them as they came to me at the height of my tube rolling experimentation.
> I have bought some really uninspired TSRPs I have 3 pairs, only one pair sounds truly special.  I think you have to be careful about generalization on a single tube or lot of tubes, because condition is very important. Sometimes a designation like VT231 seems to correlate with a better sounding tube than it's GT civilian clone, regardless of the engineers intent.  The statement that  3 rivet 3 hole plates are the same as the GTs  (2 hole plates of this apparent design that  otherwise  seem to be  " Identical' to   the 51-53 GT tube is very wrong, despite the  "expert" source.  Len over on audio asylum dissected the tubes in question and the Bad Boy seemed to much more  stoutly designed with seriously much more copper wire length and gauge. Ultimately it means doing your homework.
> I am an older fart  and think many of you rush headlong into the world of tubes buying only very expensive rarities.  It would be very instructive to try less expensive tubes to give you a perspective and really knowing that there is no "ordinary 6SN7" that would satisfy your needs and as I already said give you the background that would makes sense of buying the rarities, otherwise it just a  pissing contest.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I bought a 6 pack of 6sn7's for around $300 from brent jesse before I went for some rarer more expensive tubes. I also got 2 free tubes from ttvj with my peak/volcano. I can also say that a b65 is not an all arounder. Magnificent tube but not an all arounder. I just tried out the pre cbs hytron today and it is absolutely what I was looking for. Less midrange bloom and authoritative bass, though not quite as much as the ken-rad, but that tube is almost too bassy. Thank you for all the suggestions. This tube was only $75 shipped and it is quickly becoming my fav. despite not being major dinero. Hoping the 6sn7w long bottle is more of the same but taken to another level.


----------



## Mechans1

If what you want is or sounds like a TSRP, then of course only TSRP or a predecessor like 6F8G (NU) will do.  Your preference for the 6F8G is shared by many DIYers and tube lovers I read on Audio Asylum's Tube Asylum .  You have found your favorite sound and that is good especially if as you point out it is affordable to the person seeking it.
 One thing missing from these discussions is the circuit the tube is being used in.  I was lucky that my first tube amp's driver stage was a pair of  6SN7s.  Rolling them made a big difference.  My big rig eventually  used an AE-3 (Cary) pre amp which relied on  6SN7  tubes  for amplification.  I had no idea how many of my tubes were microphonic more or less.  I used Sylvania "W"s (actually the earlier "A" frequently) for a stretch and just loved them, I had collected a bunch so I had several variants to choose from. Then I tried  the Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTYs and found them to make me the happiest .  At times though I would roll in whatever came to mind for variety, and wasn't slavishly devoted  to any single brand, edition or variant.
 The only istance I can think of for that was my 6CA7 output tubes in my monbloc amps, they just didn't seem to be working on all cylinders unless the EH Big Bottle 6CA7s were in it, and I am not a big fan of Russian tubes.


----------



## Mechans1

I 'm glad the Hytron was what you wanted. 
 The next response I wrote earlier is for the TSRP devotee.  I don't know  how it ended up there.


----------



## r one

What is for you guys, 6f8g tube closest to TSRP's ?


----------



## Skylab

r one said:


> What is for you guys, 6f8g tube closest to TSRP's ?




Do you mean besides the actual TS BGRP 6F8G?


----------



## r one

No,  i meant which 6F8G sounding closest to TS 6SN7 bgrp. ?


----------



## Oskari

r one said:


> No,  i meant which 6F8G sounding closest to TS 6SN7 bgrp. ?


 
  


skylab said:


> Do you mean besides the actual *TS BGRP 6F8G*?


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> No,  i meant which 6F8G sounding closest to TS 6SN7 bgrp. ?




It is answered above. The answer is the TS RP 6F8G. It has the same plates as the TS RP 6SN7 so it is the same sound.

If you don't want a TS RP 6F8G but it's closest sounding tube. It is kinda personal preference however I would say NU6F8G. However it is coloured where the TS is less so.


----------



## r one

NU 6F8G is more colored than TS . You speak about NU with yellow mark on top ?


----------



## rosgr63

I consider the TS 6F8G Black Glass Flat Plates as a decent cheaper alternative.


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> NU 6F8G is more colored than TS . You speak about NU with yellow mark on top ?


 
  
 Yip. My ones last week.
  

  
 The paint can be removed by fingernails.


----------



## Badas

rosgr63 said:


> I consider the TS 6F8G Black Glass Flat Plates as a decent cheaper alternative.


 
  
 They just look like RCA's. Are they????
  
 The RCA's flatplates would be my third favorite 6F8G's. The RCA's can be had for a lot less than the TS FP's.


----------



## r one

i've got one 6F8G TS bg flate plate and like it. In confrontation with NU 6F8G what would you say ?


----------



## rosgr63

No rules when it comes to tubes.
  
 What sounds good to you is the best tube, no matter how little it costs.


----------



## r one

True, but i'm searching about MY ultimate tube. In my dream it will be like a TS 6F8G with more warm mids. That's why i'm asking about NU which they are apparently more colored.


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> i've got one 6F8G TS bg flate plate and like it. In confrontation with NU 6F8G what would you say ?


 
  
 See below:
  


rosgr63 said:


> No rules when it comes to tubes.
> 
> What sounds good to you is the best tube, no matter how little it costs.


 
 Very True. I like very cheap power tubes. Russian 6N13's or whatever they are called. Others would frown. However I have tried all the other 6AS7 type tubes and the Russian hits my taste. Problem is getting quiet sets.


r one said:


> True, but i'm searching about MY ultimate tube. In my dream it will be like a TS 6F8G with more warm mids. That's why i'm asking about NU which they are apparently more colored.


 
  
 Just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt. Here is my ranking (first worst to last best)
  
 Sylvania 6F8G. Not much fun. Similar to 6SN7
 RCA Roundplate. Nice tube. Better than RCA 6SN7 type. It beats my 6SN7 Greyglass and clearglass.
 RCA Flatglass. Very nice. Better than the 6SN7 type with the same plates. No treble roll like 6SN7. Treble is sweet. Very Dynamic tube. Not much colour.
 Ken Rad 6F8G. Not tried. Suppose to be good. Similar to RCA flateplate structure.
 Tung Sol 6F8G Flat plate. Not tried. Looks like a Ken Rad or RCA plate structure. I suspect this is a disguise. A classic rebadge or contract make. I could be wrong tho.
 Tung Sol 6F8G round plate. Not tried. I will listen soon. I can get my hands on a set to try. From what I have heard the best.
 NU round plate. My favorite. Hits my emotional button. Lush. Great midrange. Better soundfield than the others tried. I can't bring myself to try TS RP as this is so good. A whole other level to anything I have heard. I'm stocking up.


----------



## TonyNewman

r one said:


> True, but i'm searching about MY ultimate tube. In my dream it will be *like a TS 6F8G with more warm mids*...


 
  
 The NU 6F8G is the best tube I know of that meets that criteria. To my ears the 6F8G TS RP is the better tube technically and is the more neutral of the two. Keeping in mind that the NU is a great tube and is around half (or less) of the cost of the TS RP in 6F8G form, I find the NU to be much better value and more aligned to my tastes.
  
 A lot depends on your setup and personal preferences. I use the Brimar rectifier, which is a very close to neutral tube, and plan to use the NUs in my WA5 with a set of Elrog 300Bs. My understanding is that the Elrogs are also a close to neutral sound - so the NU can slot into that lineup very well. With rectifiers and/or 300Bs that bring much more to the sound the TS RPs might be a better fit. It depends on the sound signature you are looking for.
  
 My view is that the NU is a superb tube that combines technical excellence with a wonderful warmth and sweetness - perfect for the sort of vocal centric music I generally prefer. For orchestral / classical / jazz styles of music I would probably go for the TS RP, but that's just a personal preference.
  
 If you want a driver tube that brings some warmth and lovely sweetness to the sound, perfect for vocals - go for the NU. If you want a more neutral driver, or just want a great all-rounder - go for the TS RP.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

There are other quality round plate 6F8Gs.


----------



## Badas

nic rhodes said:


> There are other quality round plate 6F8Gs.


 

 Please tell.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> Please tell.


 
  
 +1. Some specifics would be helpful.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

There is much cross dressing of 6F8Gs, and in any one make it relatively easy to find multiple types. I have always been a fan of round plate 6F8Gs and like the Tung Sol, National Union and Raytheon round plates. We have taled about the former for 20 years now but the latter have had little press. Who made the latter two is another discussion.... Is it make, age or construction style that makes the difference is a debate I have seen little of.


----------



## TonyNewman

nic rhodes said:


> There is much cross dressing of 6F8Gs, and in any one make it relatively easy to find multiple types. I have always been a fan of round plate 6F8Gs and like the Tung Sol, National Union and Raytheon round plates. We have taled about the former for 20 years now but the latter have had little press. Who made the latter two is another discussion.... Is it make, age or construction style that makes the difference is a debate I have seen little of.


 
  
 Thank you - that helps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I look at the internals on 6F8Gs to determine what I am dealing with. The re-branding is so prevalent that the brand on the tube itself is almost meaningless.
  
 I have tried several 6F8Gs and the NUs and TS RPs have stood out from the pack. I am a long way from having tried all the 6F8Gs out there, but now that I have the NUs and TS RPs I just don't see the need to keep searching. These are my end-game NOS driver tubes.
  
 I think I have tried almost every new production driver tube on the market and they are all rubbish compared to the either of these tubes.


----------



## r one

the sources i use is a violectric dac and balancing act amplifier (with PX4 power output tubes) who give dynamic and neutral sound. I usually listen jazz, ambient jazz and fusion jazz by my TH900 with this set up (but mids are too recessed for my taste, i'm an ath mids fan too : have in the paste w1000x and actually w3k). I've many type of preamp tube : 6F8G TS rp and flate, TS 6SN7 rp, ecc35 mullard and others. My mullard would be my ultimate for mids if it would have tight bass like TS 6F8G and Ts 6F8G would be my ultimate if it would have mids of my mullard....so perhaps NU 6F8G because all tube i've tried i always prefer bass response with 6F8G type instead of 6SN7 type.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Sylvania 6F8G. Not much fun. Similar to 6SN7
> RCA Roundplate. Nice tube. Better than RCA 6SN7 type. It beats my 6SN7 Greyglass and clearglass.
> RCA Flatglass. Very nice. Better than the 6SN7 type with the same plates. No treble roll like 6SN7. Treble is sweet. Very Dynamic tube. Not much colour.
> Ken Rad 6F8G. Not tried. Suppose to be good. Similar to RCA flateplate structure.
> ...


 
  
 Another data point. There exist TS 6SN7GT with the same square top mica flat-ribbed plate design....


----------



## Porteroso

nic rhodes said:


> There is much cross dressing of 6F8Gs, and in any one make it relatively easy to find multiple types. I have always been a fan of round plate 6F8Gs and like the Tung Sol, National Union and Raytheon round plates. We have taled about the former for 20 years now but the latter have had little press. Who made the latter two is another discussion.... Is it make, age or construction style that makes the difference is a debate I have seen little of.


 
 From what I can tell, the only 6F8G that Raytheon made was a ribbed oval plate? Internals are different from both the NU and TS. I think the TS is the only one with a circular plate, the NU/Raytheons are oval plates. The Raytheons I have sound pretty bad, as well, from what I remember. Maybe I got a bad pair, who knows. I will give them another listen as well, I was listening to so many tubes that night.
  
 edit: Giving the Raytheon another listen. They are not bad, definitely not bad. Much more neutral, less midrange, more treble and bass. I will have to listen back and forth sometime. My impressions the first time were that they just were too bright, tinny, and harsh. Just need more time with them to see if my former self was accurate at all  Oh, and extremely microphonic. That might have been another reason I hated them.


----------



## rosgr63




----------



## Oskari

rosgr63 said:


>


 
  
 I remember that! But I did not remember that it was more than three years ago in this thread, Stavros.


----------



## rosgr63

Well done Oskari, back in 2009 if I remember well when we were talking about 6F8G's.
  
 Time flies.........


----------



## Badas

rosgr63 said:


>




Is that the Raytheon 6F8g plate structure?


----------



## rosgr63

Here's the Raytheon plate structure


----------



## MIKELAP

rosgr63 said:


> Here's the Raytheon plate structure


 
 My first picture is a Westinghouse second is a NU  third is a Raytheon  i have


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> My first picture is a Westinghouse second is a NU  third is a Raytheon  i have


 
  
 Lots of re branding I think. The Westinghouse looks like the NU. I also have a RCA that is exactly the same but with different Micras. I have compared the RCA to the NU and they look the same and more importantly sound the same.
  

  
 The Raytheon looks very very similar to the Sylvania. I could be wrong but another possible re brand. 6F8G's are terrible at re branding. You have to go by the plates.


----------



## Porteroso

Do you have NU with round plates Tony? The Westinghouse has the same round plate that the TS does. My NU do not, they are oval. Also roger posted a picture of Raytheons, different from Mikelap's. Mine are like mike's., so there is another variation even within brands. Even among similar construction, I have seen quite a bit of variation in guage of internals used, as well as teething on the plates. Same brand, same otherwise internals will have various configurations of teeth, which is a bit weird. You wonder if they changed plates because they thought one was better than the other, or whether it was just using the stock they had. Not even sure what the purpose of the teeth is.
  
 I do think that round plates were preferred over oval, but stamping out oval plates just used less metal. Metal was in high demand in the 40's and 50's. Trying to figure out what exactly accounts for differing sound would be a very interesting project.


----------



## TonyNewman

porteroso said:


> Do you have NU with round plates Tony? ...


 
  
 The NUs I get moist panties over are as per the pics above (the shot with the green and black NU box is superb - that is the one).
 Really nice pics guys - thank you


----------



## Badas

porteroso said:


> Do you have NU with round plates Tony? The Westinghouse has the same round plate that the TS does. *My NU do not, they are oval.* Also roger posted a picture of Raytheons, different from Mikelap's. Mine are like mike's., so there is another variation even within brands. Even among similar construction, I have seen quite a bit of variation in guage of internals used, as well as teething on the plates. Same brand, same otherwise internals will have various configurations of teeth, which is a bit weird. You wonder if they changed plates because they thought one was better than the other, or whether it was just using the stock they had. Not even sure what the purpose of the teeth is.
> 
> I do think that round plates were preferred over oval, but stamping out oval plates just used less metal. Metal was in high demand in the 40's and 50's. Trying to figure out what exactly accounts for differing sound would be a very interesting project.


 
  
 Can you post us a pic of that version please? NU oval plate.
  
 I have a few boxes of NU and a few of the RCA. To my eyes in the sunlight the plates are identical. I just had them outside yesterday studying them. I just rolled in the RCA yesterday and they sounded NU great. To my ears they were identical.
  
 As you can see in my pic above the RCA does not have the same micras as the NU and the support rods are gone. They do sound the same tho.


----------



## Badas

I'm suspecting that those NU round plates were mass produced by someone (my gut says either NU or RCA) and possibly sold to other manufactures.
  
 It might be why we see so many different versions of them out there????
  
 They don't look like a contract build. They would all look the same but with different brands stamped on them. The only common feature is the plates.
  
 My RCA's have less rattle (when you give a little shake) and microphonics than the NU version. I think it is those plastic guides on the top micra hold it nicer against the glass. It is a nice tube.
  
 Any version would be nice tho.


----------



## jibzilla

bob383rad said:


> I can listen to the Pinnacle with the HD800's for hours without the treble assault. I have the cans balanced with Cardas 4 pin cable at Todd's suggestion. He's a great person to deal with.I'll await the reviews of the new HiFi man 1000 cans.


 
  
 Just my 2 cents but I would take the $1945 you would spend on a new lcd-3f and put it towards a new airbow sr-sc-11 from pricejapan and a used stax 727ii energizer. I don't think there will ever be a planar that sounds as close to a hd800 as a stax does. The 407, 507, and 007mk2 were not my cup of tea but the airbow is awesome. I also think a sr009 and kgsshv would really rival your pinnacle/hd800. The sr-009 is at an unheard of $2800 from pricejapan and a kgsshv from mjolnir is about the same. The same price as just the 009 when it first came out and spritzer has told me the newest models sound the best.
  
 The hytron was a great tube but I think I'm going to send my lcd-3f back to audeze and sell the hd650 for a loss. After a few weeks I have gone back to the X and th-600 and they just synergize more with the peak/volcano and I think the 6sn7 tube itself. Going to see if I can get the gain lowered on my peak/volcano.


----------



## Angelbelow

I decided to take the plunge on the nu 6f8g too. They arent too expensive to experiment with. The tubes are going to arrive much sooner than the adapters though.


----------



## Badas

angelbelow said:


> I decided to take the plunge on the nu 6f8g too. They arent too expensive to experiment with. The tubes are going to arrive much sooner than the adapters though.




Have fun with them. I just love them. Really raised my amp to the next level. 

I'm using them now as I type. I haven't heard my music so good before. Listening to my old favourites is a real pleasure.

I'm not touching my tube set. Right now I'm 100% happy with its sound.


----------



## Angelbelow

badas said:


> Have fun with them. I just love them. Really raised my amp to the next level.
> 
> I'm using them now as I type. I haven't heard my music so good before. Listening to my old favourites is a real pleasure.
> 
> I'm not touching my tube set. Right now I'm 100% happy with its sound.


 
  
 Cant wait!


----------



## TonyNewman

angelbelow said:


> Cant wait!


 
  
 It really is a great tube. Not quite as good technically as the TS RP, but it is very, very close, and it brings a lovely warm sweetness to the sound that is highly addictive.
  
 I have both TS RP 6F8G and NU 6F8G, and I prefer the NU. It is that good. Just be sure to pair it with close to neutral rectifiers + output tubes - it already adds plenty to the sound and more might be too much (unless you like that sort of thing).
  
 Please report back on the NUs - I would be very interested in how you find them.


----------



## r one

Men, i am very happy. I just found a new pair of 6f8g NU in mint condition here in Europe (round plate version made in 1942). What are you doing with yellow paint on top, you take it off or not?
 I am impatient to hear if the national union tube will bring me the mediums I expect.


----------



## Porteroso

From what I can tell, the paint will just wear itself off with time. I think it disintegrates with heat, and they used it so they could tell which tubes were new, which had been used. I'm too lazy to take it off, but some do.


----------



## TonyNewman

r one said:


> Men, i am very happy. I just found a new pair of 6f8g NU in mint condition here in Europe (round plate version made in 1942). What are you doing with yellow paint on top, you take it off or not?
> I am impatient to hear if the national union tube will bring me the mediums I expect.


 
  


porteroso said:


> From what I can tell, the paint will just wear itself off with time. I think it disintegrates with heat, and they used it so they could tell which tubes were new, which had been used. I'm too lazy to take it off, but some do.


 
  
 I leave it alone as part of the history of the tube - but that's just me. It can be scrapped off with a fingernail if you want to get rid of it.
  
 EDIT - forgot to add - burn in on a NOS pair seems to be around 80 to 100 hours. After that the NU sounds about as good as it ever will (to my ears anyway).


----------



## Mechans1

I have assembled a fairly large collection of 6SN7s.  What am I going to do if the  6F8Gs are indeed much better than my favorite 6SN7s. 
 Also I would like to ask anyone who bought a converter that they really liked, for that source.  I am not familiar with the converter sellers on Ebay or elsewhere for that matter.
 I thought my tube rolling days would slow down now that I have Mullard CV181 ECC32s , Brimar 6SN7 GTY CV1988s and a bunch of Ws and As  (not to mention a whole bunch of others).  Oh well-


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> Is that the Raytheon 6F8g plate structure?


 
  
 Ken-Rad, I think, we thought, that was.


----------



## Oskari

mikelap said:


>


 
  


badas said:


> The Raytheon looks very very similar to the Sylvania.


 
  
 This Raytheon tube has the military markings which you can usually trust.


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> I'm suspecting that those NU round plates were mass produced by someone (my gut says either NU or RCA)


 
  
 The NU-like NUs are NUs (and some of them have the military markings as well).
  


> and possibly sold to other manufactures.


 
  
 A common practice.


----------



## rosgr63

oskari said:


> Ken-Rad, I think, we thought, that was.


 

 Indeed.
  
 The first one I got was made by Ken Rad for Ward Airlines but later ones were branded Ken Rad.


----------



## Angelbelow

tonynewman said:


> It really is a great tube. Not quite as good technically as the TS RP, but it is very, very close, and it brings a lovely warm sweetness to the sound that is highly addictive.
> 
> I have both TS RP 6F8G and NU 6F8G, and I prefer the NU. It is that good. Just be sure to pair it with close to neutral rectifiers + output tubes - it already adds plenty to the sound and more might be too much (unless you like that sort of thing).
> 
> Please report back on the NUs - I would be very interested in how you find them.




Definitely, Will do!


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> I leave it alone as part of the history of the tube - but that's just me. It can be scrapped off with a fingernail if you want to get rid of it.
> 
> EDIT - forgot to add - burn in on a NOS pair seems to be around 80 to 100 hours. After that the NU sounds about as good as it ever will (to my ears anyway).







r one said:


> Men, i am very happy. I just found a new pair of 6f8g NU in mint condition here in Europe (round plate version made in 1942). What are you doing with yellow paint on top, you take it off or not?
> 
> I am impatient to hear if the national union tube will bring me the mediums I expect.




Yip. It can be taken off by fingernails. That is how I did it. Here is a few before and after pics of mine.





I find the first 6-10 hours a little harsh in the treble and then it settles in and very listenable. The full lush magic would come with latter burn time. Like Tony said 80-100 hours. However I just want to point out they are ready to use at about 10 hours.



mechans1 said:


> I have assembled a fairly large collection of 6SN7s.  What am I going to do if the  6F8Gs are indeed much better than my favorite 6SN7s.
> Also I would like to ask anyone who bought a converter that they really liked, for that source.  I am not familiar with the converter sellers on Ebay or elsewhere for that matter.
> I thought my tube rolling days would slow down now that I have Mullard CV181 ECC32s , Brimar 6SN7 GTY CV1988s and a bunch of Ws and As  (not to mention a whole bunch of others).  Oh well-




Yip. Oh well. I did the same thing. However in the end it is the sound and to me the 6F's just sound better.


----------



## r one

How do you find bass response ?


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> How do you find bass response ?


 
  
 It depends on the power tubes on my amp. At the moment I'm running Sylvania 6080's (I know cheap ass tubes however I like them). Bass response it better than I thought possible from a tube amp. It is outperforming my Oppo HA-1 SS amp.


----------



## r one

of coures I would give you my opinion when I have received my pair.


----------



## Mechans1

Currently I am using a Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTY with two Chatham 5998s (Tung Sol) and the amp sounds very very good.  I was playing a Johnny Cash  disc "Ain't No Grave" where his now softer and  more gravellyy upper bass/baritone voice really shines.  Other baritones sound great with this set up as well. 
 I really don't know what the 6F8Gs will sound like.  I need the converter first.   It is tax season, as well, so I have to be careful with expenditures until I pay off uncle  Sam.  This experiment will have to wait a month or so.  I will let you know if I get it together and try these tubes.  I have only good thing about them over on Audio Asylum Tube Asylum.  It comes up every so often usually putting the genuinely  knowledgeable DIYers against the tube hoarder know it alls (me). LOL


----------



## TonyNewman

I have had a strange experience with *NOS 6F8Gs NU* tubes that I need to share with the thread.
  
 I have had consistent microphonics at a high level, but only in the WA5 and only for the NOS NUs. I can take the same tubes and adapters and plug them into my WA6 and they are fine. My buddy has the same tubes in a WA22 with no problems. I can put other 6F8G tubes (or 6SN7s) into my WA5 and they are also fine.
  
 Something very odd is happening with the NOS NU 6F8G and my WA5. I suspect this might be the same issue that another member found earlier in the thread with the NOS 6F8G NU.
  
 So a word of caution for WA5 owners - the NOS NU 6F8G _*might *_be problematic for you. WA6 and WA22 are golden. I can't speak for any other amps.
  
 EDIT - I should also point out that I have recently had my WA5 repaired after some caps failed. This issue might just be me and my WA5 - I would not have mentioned it at all if there had not been another member who also had some issues with the NOS NU 6F8G tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

That happens.
  
 When you change the operating point tubes behave differently.
  
 As mentioned before a noisy driver can be very quiet when used in a different position (as output), or in a different circuit.
  
*EDIT *It happens to other tubes not just NU.


----------



## TonyNewman

rosgr63 said:


> That happens.
> 
> When you change the operating point tubes behave differently.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you - that helps me understand what is happening. The symptoms are very specific to the NOS NU tubes and my WA5 (and possibly other amps).
  
 I take it the "operating point" is an outcome of the circuit and not something I can impact?


----------



## r one

and usually 6F8G's are more microphonics than 6SN7's.


----------



## TonyNewman

r one said:


> and usually 6F8G's are more microphonics than 6SN7's.


 
  
 Tried several different types of 6F8Gs in the WA5 - all are good - only the NUs hit the wall.


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> Tried several different types of 6F8Gs in the WA5 - all are good - only the NUs hit the wall.




I just can't work that one out. They are dead quiet in the WA22. Even from brand new. Like the first 10 minutes is even quiet.

The WA22 and the WA5 must have two different 6SN7 circuits. Weird.


----------



## r one

Simply, i think you've fallen on a bad tube


----------



## TonyNewman

r one said:


> Simply, i think you've fallen on a bad tube


 
  
 Nope - I have 14 NOS NUs - I have burned in 4 of them so far and they are all highly microphonic in the WA5. I can take that exact tube + adapter setup and plug it into the WA6 and it is fine - sounds great.
  
 6F8G RCAs and TS RPs are also fine in the WA5. It's very weird. Only NOS NUs in the WA5 are having a problem. Any other tube + amp combination I have is working great (I have a WA5 and a WA6 and several flavors of 6F8G and 6SN7s).
  
 Should I call an exorcist?


----------



## r one

perhaps you should


----------



## rosgr63

tonynewman said:


> Thank you - that helps me understand what is happening. The symptoms are very specific to the NOS NU tubes and my WA5 (and possibly other amps).
> 
> I take it the "operating point" is an outcome of the circuit and not something I can impact?


 

  You are most welcome Tony.
  
 It's the way an amp is designed/made.
 Nothing as a user you can do unless you start making mods/adjustments to the amp in question, something I would leave to a technical person.
  
 Personally I would not do anything but identify what's happening and make a record.
  
 I hope this helps.
  
 Ken-Rads are even worst.


----------



## 2359glenn

rosgr63 said:


> tonynewman said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you - that helps me understand what is happening. The symptoms are very specific to the NOS NU tubes and my WA5 (and possibly other amps).
> ...


 

 You can try switching the tubes from right to left positions Woo uses the opposite sections of the 6SN7 on left and right
 And each half is wired differently. So this might help a tube that is noisy in the right might not be in left
 I found the WA-5 was wired this way when I was building some C3g to 6SN7 for the WA-5 adapters for someone.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks Glenn.


----------



## TonyNewman

Thank you to everyone that helped me out with this issue - much appreciated. I'll try swapping the tubes over and see if that helps.
  
 Pity, as the 6F8G NU is a fantastic tube in the WA5, but I have others that do the job nicely as well


----------



## Xcalibur255

tonynewman said:


> Thank you - that helps me understand what is happening. The symptoms are very specific to the NOS NU tubes and my WA5 (and possibly other amps).
> 
> I take it the "operating point" is an outcome of the circuit and not something I can impact?


 
 It's very likely that Woo runs the 6SN7 harder in the WA5 (more voltage/current on the plate) than it does in the WA22 or WA6.  Tubes that are well behaved when coasting can behave badly when pushed harder.  Driving a 300B is a far more demanding job for a 6SN7 than the work it needs to do in the other Woo amps so it makes sense to have more aggressive operating points in this application.


----------



## TonyNewman

xcalibur255 said:


> It's very likely that Woo runs the 6SN7 harder in the WA5 (more voltage/current on the plate) than it does in the WA22 or WA6.  Tubes that are well behaved when coasting can behave badly when pushed harder.  Driving a 300B is a far more demanding job for a 6SN7 than the work it needs to do in the other Woo amps so it makes sense to have more aggressive operating points in this application.


 
  
 Makes sense. The NUs sound wonderful in the WA6 - really quite dreamy, but chunky barf in the WA5.
  
 Now I know it is something in the amp circuit I can stop swapping out tubes and adapters and other such shenanigans and use alternate tubes that the WA5 does like.


----------



## Badas

xcalibur255 said:


> It's very likely that Woo runs the 6SN7 harder in the WA5 (more voltage/current on the plate) than it does in the WA22 or WA6.  Tubes that are well behaved when coasting can behave badly when pushed harder.  Driving a 300B is a far more demanding job for a 6SN7 than the work it needs to do in the other Woo amps so it makes sense to have more aggressive operating points in this application.




That really makes a lot of sense. Well explained.

Tony. We will test this out soon. I will come over and listen to a set of NU's in your WA5 and then take those exact tubes with me and install in my WA22.


----------



## TonyNewman

badas said:


> ...
> 
> Tony. We will test this out soon. I will come over and listen to a set of NU's in your WA5 and then take those exact tubes with me and install in my WA22.


 
  
 You betcha. Have done exactly that with the WA6 however (in reverse - WA6 to WA5).  Result as above - WA6 loves the NU, WA5 hates the NU.


----------



## rosgr63

Tony can you put some gloves on and touch both the NU's in the WA5 and let me know what happens?
  
 Do they become quiet when you touch them?


----------



## TonyNewman

rosgr63 said:


> Tony can you put some gloves on and touch both the NU's in the WA5 and let me know what happens?
> 
> Do they become quiet when you touch them?


 
  
 Shouldn't I buy them dinner first, before the touching? Or at least a drink? I'm not sure the NUs are that kind of tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Touching made no difference to the crackle sound, but it did make me feel better, and perhaps a little bit cheap.


----------



## rosgr63

tonynewman said:


> Shouldn't I buy them dinner first, before the touching? Or at least a drink? I'm not sure the NUs are that kind of tube
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 They are no fun then I am afraid, what a shame.............


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> You betcha. Have done exactly that with the WA6 however (in reverse - WA6 to WA5).  Result as above - WA6 loves the NU, WA5 hates the NU.




I'm betting that the WA6, WA6 SE, WA2 (with adapters) and WA22 will all work with the NU's. Smaller power requirements and transformers. 

Probably not nessary for me to test your exact tubes. I own two sets and have rolled both with no adverse effects. As we purchased of the same seller at the same time I believe they would be from the same batch as well.


----------



## TonyNewman

rosgr63 said:


> They are no fun then I am afraid, what a shame.............


 
  
 Might just be my clumsy hands. It's been a while...


----------



## rosgr63

Smooth talking helps too


----------



## Stereolab42

tonynewman said:


> You betcha. Have done exactly that with the WA6 however (in reverse - WA6 to WA5).  Result as above - WA6 loves the NU, WA5 hates the NU.


 
  
 In my case it was more like the WA5 and the NU 6F8G got along like nitro and glycerin. They must simply have been built to lower tolerances/standards of quality.
  
 I will note that iglioto has yet another pair of WWII grey-glass RCA VT-231s for sale at a great price:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-RCA-VT-231-JAN-CRC-6SN7GT-military-issue-matching-pair-6SN7GT-/281637288659?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4192e3fad3
  
 I have bought so many similar pairs from this guy it isn't even funny. Somebody else jump on it or I'm going to keep buying them up.


----------



## jibzilla

6sn7w long bottle came in today. Wow what a tube. I think I may have found "the one".


----------



## rosgr63

Have you tried the short bottle, with the lower mica inside the base?


----------



## dminches

rosgr63 said:


> Have you tried the short bottle, with the lower mica inside the base?


 
  
 If you haven't you can go to the Stavros Museum and pick one up!


----------



## Xcalibur255

tonynewman said:


> You betcha. Have done exactly that with the WA6 however (in reverse - WA6 to WA5).  Result as above - WA6 loves the NU, WA5 hates the NU.


 

 My experience matches this.  NU tubes lose their creamy sound and become harder edged when given more voltage.  You can control this a little bit in your WA5 through choice of rectifier, unless you are running 5U4Gs already.  They have about the most voltage drop out of everything that is compatible so there is no room to go down from there.


----------



## Oskari

xcalibur255 said:


> You can control this a little bit in your WA5 through choice of rectifier, unless you are running 5U4Gs already.  They have about the most voltage drop out of everything that is compatible so there is no room to go down from there.


 
  
 5R4 might beat them.


----------



## Xcalibur255

oskari said:


> 5R4 might beat them.


 
  
 Good call.  It might.  But I think they have marginally higher overall ratings too, so it might be a wash given the less taxing load for the 5R4.


----------



## buldogge

Quick question about some Ken Rad GTs...
  
 I just picked up (2) singles...both staggered plates, bottom getter...(1) has taller glass than the other (taller one is marked VT-231).
  
 I use these for power tubes in my Little Dots...Any insight on differences beyond the glass envelope height???
  
 TIA
 -Mark in St. Louis


----------



## Mechans1

buldogge said:


> Quick question about some Ken Rad GTs...
> 
> I just picked up (2) singles...both staggered plates, bottom getter...(1) has taller glass than the other (taller one is marked VT-231).
> 
> ...


 

 I am not sure but you will know if there is a significant audible difference.  Please report back to us what your findings are.


----------



## Xcalibur255

buldogge said:


> Quick question about some Ken Rad GTs...
> 
> I just picked up (2) singles...both staggered plates, bottom getter...(1) has taller glass than the other (taller one is marked VT-231).
> 
> ...


 
  
 If both plates are staggered they will likely sound the same.  You don't want to mix staggered and non-staggered style because the non are made by GE.


----------



## r one

Hi guys, great time for my easter, i've received my NU 6F8G today, time for listening...enjoy


----------



## r one

unfortunately, the first tube i've tested today is very noisy : make a _ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff _backgroud sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 What a shame It seems to be so euphonic..grrrrrr


----------



## JamieMcC

r one said:


> unfortunately, the first tube i've tested today is very noisy : make a _ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff _backgroud sound
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Don't be to quick to right it off, giving the pins a clean and letting it burn in for a day or two can often cure such noises with old tubes that have been stored an unused for many years.


----------



## Mechans1

I just read something from a recent post claiming that non staggered plate Ken Rads were made by GE.  I think this is false.  Sometimes with all of the rebranding there can be mélange of names on a tube but Ken Rad did not have GE make their non staggered tubes.  In fact I have heard it said that RCA made another brands tubes which could easily be said of any non stagger .  RCA made non staggered plate 6SN7s.  I will ask in another forum if anyone has heard this.  Recall that GE tubes frequently have the small dot acid etch patterns on them.


----------



## r one

jamiemcc said:


> Don't be to quick to right it off, giving the pins a clean and letting it burn in for a day or two can often cure such noises with old tubes that have been stored an unused for many years.


 
 ah you think? I never heard this kind of problem before with my other NOS tubes
 Tomorrow I will try the second one. And I will clean this first but the pins are very clean already. Then i will test a second time. Seller change the tube if problem persist.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> I just read something from a recent post claiming that non staggered plate Ken Rads were made by GE.  I think this is false.  Sometimes with all of the rebranding there can be mélange of names on a tube but Ken Rad did not have GE make their non staggered tubes.  In fact I have heard it said that RCA made another brands tubes which could easily be said of any non stagger .  RCA made non staggered plate 6SN7s.  I will ask in another forum if anyone has heard this.  Recall that GE tubes frequently have the small dot acid etch patterns on them.


 
  
 It is true that Ken-Rad did not rebrand GE production, primarily because GE was not a major manufacturer of vacuum tubes during the 1940's. In fact, GE acquired the Ken-Rad vacuum tube division in 1945, and this division ended up becoming GE's primary vacuum tube manufacturing facility. As one would expect, after the sale, the older Ken-Rad designs were phased out and GE's new designs were phased in. Generally speaking, staggered plates are characteristic of the original Ken-Rad designs and non-staggered plates are characteristic of the newer GE designs.


----------



## jibzilla

r one said:


> ah you think? I never heard this kind of problem before with my other NOS tubes
> Tomorrow I will try the second one. And I will clean this first but the pins are very clean already. Then i will test a second time. Seller change the tube if problem persist.


 

 The peak/volcano is sensitive to microphonics and I have seen that on a brand new sofia princess and my 6sn7w recently, so yeah it can take between 50-100hrs. to burn in a tube whether modern day or made in 1945. After the long burn in though they should last you a long time. Be careful with a channel going out as well. Thought that was a tonearm cable or leads that went out for sure but it was the tube.


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> ah you think? I never heard this kind of problem before with my other NOS tubes
> 
> Tomorrow I will try the second one. And I will clean this first but the pins are very clean already. Then i will test a second time. Seller change the tube if problem persist.




I'm listening to two NU6F8G's in my Woo WA22 as I type this in. They were NOS last week and I heard no noise right from the first minute.

Tony and I have discovered a issue with the NU and at the moment working on why. Work in progress. At this early stage it seems that the NU6F8G only works in some circuits.

We have discovered that the NU works absolutely beautifully in the WA6 and WA22. In the WA5 it produced noise. The thinking at the moment is amps with less power entering the 6SN7 circuit are fine. Others that have more power from like a 300B power tube creates noise.

With this new info the NU6F8G comes with a cautious warning. Be aware it may not work in some amps. 

A real pity as it is a beautiful sounding tube.


----------



## r one

Very interesting answer Badas. Tomorrow, i'll test the second NU (i've bought a pair). Perhaps Balancing Act is one of this amp which make some noise with this NU 6F8G . I've got TS 6F8Gs round and flate plate and they're totally quiet.
 I'll tell you results tomorrow. Thanks for your advertise Badas


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> r one said:
> 
> 
> > ah you think? I never heard this kind of problem before with my other NOS tubes
> ...


 
 I tried my 6F8Gin the WA22 and there were noisy but it was not related to the tubes  more because of the adapters because i had those made for my WA6 and the wires were facing outwards now on the WA 22 sockets pin is  not positioned the same way so wires touch the Rectifier and cause noise when i push away the wire theres less noise so i guess i wont use them on the WA22


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> Very interesting answer Badas. Tomorrow, i'll test the second NU (i've bought a pair). Perhaps Balancing Act is one of this amp which make some noise with this NU 6F8G . I've got TS 6F8Gs round and flate plate and they're totally quiet.
> I'll tell you results tomorrow. Thanks for your advertise Badas




My guess is your 6SN7 circuit has too much power going into it. The NU is not as accepting as other 6F tubes. 
You are getting similar results to Tony and his WA5. He has discovered something even more. NU tubes are quiet in his WA6 (less power) and the same tubes go noisy in the WA5 (more power).
I have two types of RCA6F's (RP and FP), NU6F and TS RP6F. All are quiet in the Woo WA22.


----------



## TonyNewman

Yep - it seems to be a power thing. I can take the exact same tube + adapter setup and A/B it with the WA6 and WA5.
  
 In the WA5 - horrid crackle noise that makes the NU 6F8Gs unusable.
  
 In the WA6 - silent. I can pause the music and crank the volume - almost nothing in the background. Brilliant.
  
 The only thing that has changed is the circuit these tubes sit in. Driving the big 300Bs appears to be hard work for the NU 6F8Gs - they don't like it and crackle.
  
 Sad, as these tubes really do sound fantastic in the WA6 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 (In fact, for the WA6 owners out there - the combination of Brimar rectifier with NU 6F8G drivers and HD600 is mind blowing - really, really lovely stuff).


----------



## Xcalibur255

gibosi said:


> It is true that Ken-Rad did not rebrand GE production, primarily because GE was not a major manufacturer of vacuum tubes during the 1940's. In fact, GE acquired the Ken-Rad vacuum tube division in 1945, and this division ended up becoming GE's primary vacuum tube manufacturing facility. As one would expect, after the sale, the older Ken-Rad designs were phased out and GE's new designs were phased in. Generally speaking, staggered plates are characteristic of the original Ken-Rad designs and non-staggered plates are characteristic of the newer GE designs.


 
  
 I spared this history lesson in my quick comment because I didn't think it was necessary to be verbose about it.  But yes this is the reason why the staggered plates and parallel plates should not be mixed.  Different design, different sound.


----------



## gibosi

xcalibur255 said:


> My experience matches this.  NU tubes lose their creamy sound and become harder edged when given more voltage.  You can control this a little bit in your WA5 through choice of rectifier, unless you are running 5U4Gs already.  They have about the most voltage drop out of everything that is compatible so there is no room to go down from there.


 
  
 Can I assume that by looking at the datasheet, it is possible to determine the voltage drop of a particular rectifier?


----------



## r one

jamiemcc said:


> Don't be to quick to right it off, giving the pins a clean and letting it burn in for a day or two can often cure such noises with old tubes that have been stored an unused for many years.


 

 I don't know what to think. This morning, i've tried the second nos NU 6F8G. Totally quiet during the first hour of listening, i was very happy because, the sound of this tube is sweet, smooth, it's that i'm searching with my TH900. Unfortunately, a similar noise appears after one hour but much lower than the other tube and only in right channel. I'm sure it was quiet the first hour. I can use it, when music plays, i don't hear this _fffffff_ background noise...i return to the seller or give it a chance of burn much longer ?


----------



## r one

tonynewman said:


> Yep - it seems to be a power thing. I can take the exact same tube + adapter setup and A/B it with the WA6 and WA5.
> 
> In the WA5 - horrid crackle noise that makes the NU 6F8Gs unusable.
> 
> ...


 
   

   

  I also asked on the dedicated balancing act thread and apparently NU 6F8G's works normally with no problem. I must have defective tube or not enough burned.


----------



## TonyNewman

r one said:


> I also asked on the dedicated balancing act thread and apparently NU 6F8G's works normally with no problem. I must have defective tube or not enough burned.


 
  
 Or perhaps something specific with the WA5 driver tube circuit and the NU 6F8G?
  
 I don't think I am the only person to find an issue with the WA5 + NU 6F8G combination. It seems doubly strange that the same tubes / adapters work fine in the WA6 (and my buddy's WA22).


----------



## Xcalibur255

gibosi said:


> Can I assume that by looking at the datasheet, it is possible to determine the voltage drop of a particular rectifier?


 

 I have a chart saved somewhere I think.  Let me see if I can find it......


----------



## Xcalibur255

Found it.
  

  
 Vdrop is your voltage drop.  This is the drop at _maximum_ current rating, the drop is less when the tube is under a less severe load.  Some data sheets will actually show you a graph showing the voltage drop change as the load increases, but I've only seen this on a couple of them.  Wish they all did it, then we could calculate exactly how much plate voltage we were getting for any tube assuming the the circuit values for the amp were known.


----------



## Xcalibur255

You can see why the 5AR4 tends to make amps sound more lively and dynamic, it has about the least drop of any 5V rectifier.  The 5R4GY seems to have the most, and is effective for mellowing an amp out.


----------



## 2359glenn

xcalibur255 said:


> You can see why the 5AR4 tends to make amps sound more lively and dynamic, it has about the least drop of any 5V rectifier.  The 5R4GY seems to have the most, and is effective for mellowing an amp out.


 

 if that is totally true a SS rectifier should sound best.


----------



## gibosi

xcalibur255 said:


> Found it.


 
  
 Thank you! This is a very useful chart to have. But I want more! lol 
  
 Do you happen to know what the vdrop is for the GZ32, 33, and 37?


----------



## Neogeo333

2359glenn said:


> if that is totally true a SS rectifier should sound best.


 
 http://www.webervst.com/ccap.html
  
 I've beem using the WZ68 for quite some time.  Sounds fast and detailed.  Cheap also if you need the huge current and low vdrop.


----------



## MoatsArt

What a wonderful sounding device.  Just to clarify, you have the choice of plug and play, or hard wiring.


----------



## Xcalibur255

2359glenn said:


> if that is totally true a SS rectifier should sound best.


 
  
 I'm discounting the effects of switching noise of course.  But I think the general relationship of less Vdrop = faster sounding generally holds true in most amps wouldn't you say?


----------



## Xcalibur255

gibosi said:


> Thank you! This is a very useful chart to have. But I want more! lol
> 
> Do you happen to know what the vdrop is for the GZ32, 33, and 37?


 
  
 I can't recall off hand.  I used to know.  It's on the lower side of things, closer to a 5AR4 than a 5U4G.  The GZ33 has a bit less drop than the GZ37 does.  I can't remember where the GZ32 falls.


----------



## gibosi

xcalibur255 said:


> I can't recall off hand.  I used to know.  It's on the lower side of things, closer to a 5AR4 than a 5U4G.  The GZ33 has a bit less drop than the GZ37 does.  I can't remember where the GZ32 falls.


 
  
 Looking at the datasheets for the GZ33 and GZ37, Vout seems to indicate that the GZ33 has less drop than the GZ37, but of course, without knowing Vdrop, I wasn't able to compare it to the rectifiers on the chart. But again, thanks!


----------



## gibosi

Currently on eBay, listing #311134071038, there is a Tungsram 6F8G. Is this likely a rebrand? Or do we know that Tungsram made these tubes?


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> Currently on eBay, listing #311134071038, there is a Tungsram 6F8G. Is this likely a rebrand? Or do we know that Tungsram made these tubes?


 

 It looks unique. I haven't seen that plate structure.


----------



## Fatsosixsixsix

Bought a pair of NU 6NS7, one of which has a crack in the base but is apparently still still air tight. Is this cause for concern?


----------



## rosgr63

As long as the base is tight there's nothing to worry about.
 That's provided the tubes has been tested.


----------



## Fatsosixsixsix

The base is tight and the seller claims to have tested, I don't own my own tester so I can't verify it however.


----------



## r one

r one said:


> Very interesting answer Badas. Tomorrow, i'll test the second NU (i've bought a pair). Perhaps Balancing Act is one of this amp which make some noise with this NU 6F8G . I've got TS 6F8Gs round and flate plate and they're totally quiet.
> I'll tell you results tomorrow. Thanks for your advertise Badas


 
 Finally i sent back to the seller my pair of NU 6F8G. it's a shame, the sound seemed very good, sweety and delicate. So i've picked up, for exchange, beautiful NOS Ken Rad earlier 6SN7 black glass version.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> Currently on eBay, listing #311134071038, there is a Tungsram 6F8G. Is this likely a rebrand? Or do we know that Tungsram made these tubes?


 
  
 I don't find it implausible. We know that British Tungsram made 6SN7GTs. Tungsram quite possibly made them in Hungary as well (http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/1335#post_7861603). So, why not 6F8Gs?
  
 On the other hand, relabels are entirely possible, too. Tungsram had operations in quite a few countries.
  
 I wish there were more photos; I almost feel like buying it to take a closer look.


----------



## Mechans1

r one said:


> Finally i sent back to the seller my pair of NU 6F8G. it's a shame, the sound seemed very good, sweety and delicate. So i've picked up, for exchange, beautiful NOS Ken Rad earlier 6SN7 black glass version.


 

 I think you'll enjoy the Ken Rads, they have the fullest and deepest bass I have heard a 6SN7 influence in my systems over the years.  The black glass looks nice in many applications if that matters.


----------



## MIKELAP




----------



## r one

mechans1 said:


> I think you'll enjoy the Ken Rads, they have the fullest and deepest bass I have heard a 6SN7 influence in my systems over the years.  The black glass looks nice in many applications if that matters.


 

 I hope too.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Actually my favorite drive tube for deepest bass is 6F8G tung sol flate plate with square mica on top. I've tried RCA, bass is powerful but not very defined.
  
 @ Mikelap : really gorgeous pic !


----------



## Mechans1

The Ken Rad is not the tube I am using at the moment myself, which is a Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTY.  I have way too many 6SN7s, (a lot), to start collecting another tube as seductive as the 6F8G sounds.  If I would buy or trade for another tube it would be a really primo 5998 type , which is my amps output tube.  Bought some really tired 421As disappointing, using Tung Sol 5998s which are  very, very good.


----------



## Khragon

badas said:


> I'm listening to two NU6F8G's in my Woo WA22 as I type this in. They were NOS last week and I heard no noise right from the first minute.
> 
> Tony and I have discovered a issue with the NU and at the moment working on why. Work in progress. At this early stage it seems that the NU6F8G only works in some circuits.
> 
> ...


 

 Too late! got NU 6F8G and turns out noisy on my WA5.. so I confirmed the finding that NU 6F8Gs are noisy on the WA5.. too bad ...


----------



## TonyNewman

khragon said:


> Too late! got NU 6F8G and turns out noisy on my WA5.. so I confirmed the finding that NU 6F8Gs are noisy on the WA5.. too bad ...


 
  
 Yep - it's a total nuttbuster as the NU is a gorgeous sounding tube. Lovely, rich SQ from the WA6 with the Brimar rectifier, but crackle and screech in the WA5


----------



## r one

Yep, i'm disappointed too. These tubes seems to be gorgeous for my ears.


----------



## Khragon

Maybe I'll send them to Woo to see if they can do anything about it, I have no other amp to use them on now anyhow.


----------



## sasquatch98

Does anyone have a preferred method for repairing cracks in Bakelite bases? I found a good price on a sylvania 6sn7gt that test nos but has a small crack in the base. I was going to either put some super glue or JB Weld over the crack to keep it from expanding, anything that would work better?


----------



## GrindingThud

Clear fingernail polish


----------



## lojay

Is there a difference in sound between the B65 brown base and B65 metal base? 
  
 My preferences are towards a more solid state, detailed and airy sound, preferably to be able to dissect complex classical passages with ease. 

 Other 6SN7 recommendations are also welcome.


----------



## Mechans1

khragon said:


> Too late! got NU 6F8G and turns out noisy on my WA5.. so I confirmed the finding that NU 6F8Gs are noisy on the WA5.. too bad ...


 

 Indeed circuits play a critical role in hearing noise ,microphonics, and even the character of  a 6SN7s sound. I had built up a fairly large collection of 6SN7s that I used as a driver tube in a 4o wpc integrated  speaker amp.  Rolling the tubes was really rewarding I could clearly hear the differences between tubes and what made some truly special.  I then bought an AE-3 preamp (by Cary) which used 6SN7s as it's  voltage amplifier.  All of a sudden some of the  tubes which were dead quiet in the other amp,  were very microphonic which is not unusual for the old GTs that were the bulk of my collection.  Fortunately very few had spurious random noises of any other sort.  I side with a well known tube dealer re microphonics, in that unless you tap on your tubes while playing,  and they don't create feedback loops, they are fine.  Nevertheless of course I wasn't thrilled about the microphonia.
 The amp I am using now a SinglePower Extreme uses a single 6SN7 in some capacity ,but it doesn't pick up noises of most any type including deliberate tube tapping.  I also find that rolling the tube  has much less impact than rolling had had, in my other gear.  Some amps are built such that tube rolling will have minimal effect such as an ARC pre amp that I once used.  ARC actually told you that you could only make a difference in certain spots.
 So yes, circuits matter, big time.


----------



## rosgr63

The circuit a tube is used in is important.
  
 Actually my findings are different to yours Mechans1.
 I have 3 SP's and I find they respond well to tube rolling.
 I use one of them with a pair of Grado SR325is for evaluating my tubes.
 One of the SP's is a PPX3-6SN7 which uses 3 6SN7's both as driver and output.
 Some noisy 6SN7's drivers became quiet when I use them as outputs.
  
 The same can happen, but not always when I use a noisy tube in a different amp.
  
 When the operating point changes the tube behaves differently.


----------



## Mechans1

Well maybe I overstated the notion that my Extreme didn't respond to tube rolling.  It does and I use some very good tubes in the 6SN7 position.  It was the opinion of the (now disgraced) owner of SP that very specific 6SN7s worked best in these amps.  In comparison to my preamp  the SP Extreme's  6SN7 isn't as revealing.  I think your PPX-3 could very easily be  highly sensitive to the 6SN7s it uses  and more like my preamp.  I think in fact, that it may support the idea that circuits are indeed critical..


----------



## rosgr63

It just proved to me what I knew in a very simple and practical way.
  
 Please note these are my findings with my own systems.


----------



## r one

i have a technical question. When base isn't tight and little loose : it's unglued right ? is it possible to make tight again or it's not a problem ?
 this morning, i putted off a 6f8g from adapter and i heard a little _clic_ sound...unglued.... damn !


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> i have a technical question. When base isn't tight and little loose : it's unglued right ? is it possible to make tight again or it's not a problem ?
> this morning, i putted off a 6f8g from adapter and i heard a little _clic_ sound...unglued.... damn !


 
  
 Many in this thread have used clear nail polish to reglue bases.


----------



## r one

I suppose it is fine to use a tube which has its base slightly off. (just use it carefully when put it off or on from amp)
 It must be very precise to put clear nail varnish between the glass and the base. There's a particular technique?


----------



## gibosi

I've not done this myself, so I can't say for sure, but I doubt that you have to be all that precise. As long as the base is adhered to the glass, it really doesn't need to be neat and pretty. I remember seeing a number of postings in this thread on this subject, so you might want to do a search.


----------



## r one

i'll do. thanks.


----------



## rosgr63

r one said:


> I suppose it is fine to use a tube which has its base slightly off. (just use it carefully when put it off or on from amp)
> It must be very precise to put clear nail varnish between the glass and the base. There's a particular technique?


 

 Just run the nail varnish in the gap between the base and glass.
  
 Or if you are careful use some superglue, a few drops will be fine.


----------



## carusoracer

Hello,

I'm looking for singles :

Brimar 6SN7GTY. NU 6SN7 earliest version. Sylvania Bad Boy 6Sn7. Treasure CV181. TSRP 6SN7

Any help appreciated. Singles only for my DeHavilland UltraVerve PreAmp. If you have ever heard a Mullard 10M ECC82 Gold Pin you'll now the dyed in the wool, tweed early British Valve sound I'm looking for.


----------



## whirlwind

I have a question about the Ken Rad black glass 6SN7 or 12SN7
  
 Do the Ken Rads that are clear at the bottom of the glass, at the base instead of chrome in that area.....are those round plates or am I just thinking this for no reason.
  
 Thanks for any info on this.


----------



## r one

rosgr63 said:


> Just run the nail varnish in the gap between the base and glass.
> 
> Or if you are careful use some superglue, a few drops will be fine.


 

 i'll try. Honestly, tubes are working perfectly like this, but i love perfect stuff.


----------



## rosgr63

The point is that a loose base can only get worse.
  
 The sooner you secure the better.
  
 I am not aware of Ken Rad making any round plates but I could be very wrong.


----------



## Skylab

whirlwind said:


> I have a question about the Ken Rad black glass 6SN7 or 12SN7
> 
> Do the Ken Rads that are clear at the bottom of the glass, at the base instead of chrome in that area.....are those round plates or am I just thinking this for no reason.
> 
> Thanks for any info on this.




The two things are not related, at least not directly. 

The "chrome" is the getter flashing. If the tube has no getter at the bottom (meaning the getter is on the top usually), then there will be no flashing at the bottom, and the glass will be clear. This has nothing to do at all with what kind of plates are used.


----------



## r one

rosgr63 said:


> The point is that a loose base can only get worse.
> 
> The sooner you secure the better.


 
 By the way, if i don't glue base to glass, what is the eventual risk ?


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> By the way, if i don't glue base to glass, what is the eventual risk ?


 
  
 The wire from the tube to the pin may become loose or even break. At that point, you would have to try to figure out how to repair that connection...  or toss it into your dead tube pile....


----------



## r one

yes I understand in case the glass is a turn on itself, but this is very very minimal it's just a little not play even one inch


----------



## whirlwind

rosgr63 said:


> The point is that a loose base can only get worse.
> 
> The sooner you secure the better.
> 
> I am not aware of Ken Rad making any round plates but I could be very wrong.


 
 If they made one, I am thinking you would you know  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


skylab said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I have a question about the Ken Rad black glass 6SN7 or 12SN7
> ...


 
 thanks for explaining that ....much appreciated


----------



## magiccabbage

Anyone know where I could bu the follwing 6sn7's ? 
  
 Aslo which of these would have the largest soundstage? ¬
  
*Sylvania 6SN7W tall, *
*Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT, *
*Sylvania 6SN7WGT, *
*RCA grey-glass 6SN7GT*
  
  
  
  
 Paddy


----------



## r one

Sure not rca. Sylvania and Tung Sol would be the best for soundstage. I find that the best soundstage i've heard is with TS 6SN7 bgrp.


----------



## gibosi

eBay listing # 331535675354
 A pair of Radiotron VT231 6SN7GT tubes, apparently manufactured in Australia.
  
 Has anyone heard these? Or know anything about them? I seem to remember that Radiotron was an RCA brand name back in the day, but at least to my eyes, these look rather unique.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> I seem to remember that Radiotron was an RCA brand name back in the day, but at least to my eyes, these look rather unique.


 
  
 In Australia, that would be AWV. A bit of history:
  

https://sites.google.com/site/transistorhistory/australian-semiconductor-manufacturers/history-of-awv


----------



## gibosi

An interesting read. And I am always open to try new tubes. But unfortunately, given that I have no idea how they might sound, the current listing for these AWV is a bit too expensive for my wallet....


----------



## Mechans1

There are some other "radiotron" 6SNs for sale on ebay but they are said to be from GE of Canada,. The tubes are superficially similar (plates high up in tube) but despite the photos there are  not  great shots of the plates.  The other thing is that there are typically factory codes on tubes  called eia codes I think, on he tube base..  I have a list of them some where but there isn't any code to look up on these bases.  So I am curious as well, I might ask your question in another forum.


----------



## Khragon

Anyone have recommendation on a modern day still in production 6SN7?
  
 I'm looking at the following:
 Shuguang Treasure CV181
 Psvane CV181-TII
 Sophia 6SN7
  
 Any of them approaching the TS BGRP performance?


----------



## r one

gibosi said:


> An interesting read. And I am always open to try new tubes. But unfortunately, given that I have no idea how they might sound, the current listing for these AWV is a bit too expensive for my wallet....


 

 seems to be a flat plate and round mica like TS earlier version of 6f8g. Intersting find.
  
 I've received a NOS famous Ken Rad Vt231 yesterday. I don't like, bass is deep but not really powerful as i read so many times. I've to burn more longer to make a definitive opinion.


----------



## Mechans1

None of them seems able to compete with the better NOS or just OS in terms of sound quality..  The one thing you get of course is a warranty of sorts with the current production tubes.  Warranties are rarely given with NOS tubes although some of the bigger operations do.
 Have you tried some of the les expensive old stock tubes like RCA or Ken Rad, GE, CBS Hytron, and Sylvania (my favorite). Even Tung Sol non round plates are  very good tubes.  If you have some confidence in them after a while you can get the more expensive variants .  For instance you start with a Sylvania GTB or better a GTA then move up to a GT bottom getter like the 231s and Bad Boys or  possibly a WGT, Then if you are really digging it, add the famous Ws to your stock of tubes.
 Right now I am using a CV1988 6SN7 GTY by Brimar but have other tubes of that caliber to roll in , if I get the urge. Even if you are not a tube roller you should keep a couple of back up pairs any way.
 In the final assessment you really have to judge for yourself if you like the sound quality of the current production 6SN7s, I wouldn't rule out the current prod. Tung Sol.   I have heard that they are decent tubes, haven't listened to them myself, but can tell you the old Electro Harmonix  6SN7 was not pleasant in the least.  The new ones are supposedly much much better.


----------



## r one

khragon said:


> Any of them approaching the TS BGRP performance?


 
 I have Ts 6SN7 bgrp and i find that Ts round plate in 6F8g type is sounding very close. Only soundstage is less 3D than the master 6SN7, but it's also cheaper : a good deal!
  
 I'm interesting for any reports about sophia 6sn7 too.


----------



## Khragon

I have already TS 6F8G and TS 6SN7 BGRP, so I thought to compare them to an in production set and hopefully get away from the game of hunting for good NOS tubes.
  
 Any recommendation on which is the best out of the one I listed?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Skylab

khragon said:


> Anyone have recommendation on a modern day still in production 6SN7?
> 
> I'm looking at the following:
> Shuguang Treasure CV181
> ...




I never tried the Psvane, but I tried the Shuggie CV181 and the Sophia, and IMHO, even a "lowly" Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounded better than either one.


----------



## isquirrel

skylab said:


> I never tried the Psvane, but I tried the Shuggie CV181 and the Sophia, and IMHO, even a "lowly" Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounded better than either one.


 
  


skylab said:


> I never tried the Psvane, but I tried the Shuggie CV181 and the Sophia, and IMHO, even a "lowly" Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounded better than either one.


 

 The Psvane is horrible similar to the Shuggie, thin bright and basically like sandpaper on your ears even with hundred's of hours of burn in.


----------



## punit

khragon said:


> Anyone have recommendation on a modern day still in production 6SN7?
> 
> I'm looking at the following:
> Shuguang Treasure CV181
> ...


 
 No experience with Psvane & Shuguang, had the Sophia's . They have good bass & are warm sounding,  treble resolution is average. They are not bad but not worth  their retail price. IMO If you can get a pair for around $ 50 try them if you like warm, bassy sound.


----------



## jibzilla

skylab said:


> I never tried the Psvane, but I tried the Shuggie CV181 and the Sophia, and IMHO, even a "lowly" Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounded better than either one.


 

 +1 on the Sophia. I got it free with a tungsol new issue as well with my amp and yeah my $35 chrome dome 6sn7gtb from brent jesse is more preferable than either. Khragon I hate to say it but 6sn7w, b65, 5692 red base if you want something close to the same level.


----------



## Khragon

jibzilla said:


> +1 on the Sophia. I got it free with a tungsol new issue as well with my amp and yeah my $35 chrome dome 6sn7gtb from brent jesse is more preferable than either. Khragon I hate to say it but 6sn7w, b65, 5692 red base if you want something close to the same level.


 

 Can you provide me some link to these tubes? any particular one stand out between the 3? 6sn7w, b65 and 5692.


----------



## r one

punit said:


> had the Sophia's . They have good bass & are warm sounding,  treble resolution is average. They are not bad but not worth  their retail price.


 
  Too bad that it does'nt make beautiful music as it's beautiful.


----------



## jibzilla

khragon said:


> Can you provide me some link to these tubes? any particular one stand out between the 3? 6sn7w, b65 and 5692.


 

www.hifishark.com. Just type in 6sn7w, Marconi b65, and 5692. You want metal and black base 6sn7w's, long or short bottle. I see one guy has a pair of black base short bottle's for $159 on ebay. Not bad imo. There is also an auction for a pair of metal base long bottle, there is no metal base short bottle that I know of. The metal base long bottles are the most sought after.
  
 B65's there only seems to be one pair at $1200. You can make an offer of $600 but that's as much as I would pay. There were quite a few a while back, I think some more will pop up.
  
 5692's you want red bases. There are quite a few for sale right now. I like the one green girl is selling for $90. I have bought from them and nice tubes imo.
  
 Again I have not tried out the TSRP yet but these are my most expensive and fav. 6sn7's.


----------



## MoatsArt

.


----------



## gibosi

A few days ago, I pointed out eBay listing # 331535675354 for a pair of Radiotron VT231 JAN-6SN7GT tubes manufactured in Australia. My curiosity got the best of me, I made an offer and ended up getting a pair.
  
 Interestingly, in each box, there is a small piece of paper listing the number and dates of all the applicable Australian and New Zealand patents, none later than 1939. Further, there is a note at the bottom: "The sale of this device does not carry a license to use it for any commercial or revenue-earning purposes." So I think it likely that these were manufactured during WWII.
  
 I am not as experienced as many in this forum, but for what it is worth, the components and construction of this tube appear to be different than any I have seen. The smooth flat-black thin box-plates and the sheet metal used as heat radiators and bracing under the first spacer are especially interesting.
  
 Popped one in the amp and I am pleased to report it lights up and plays. And of course, after only 10 minutes it is too soon to say anything more than it doesn't sound bad. Since I am a bit of tube collector, even if it doesn't knock my socks off, I am still quite pleased to have them.


----------



## whirlwind

>


 


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






gibosi said:


> A few days ago, I pointed out eBay listing # 331535675354 for a pair of Radiotron VT231 JAN-6SN7GT tubes manufactured in Australia. My curiosity got the best of me, I made an offer and ended up getting a pair.
> 
> Interestingly, in each box, there is a small piece of paper listing the number and dates of all the applicable Australian and New Zealand patents, none later than 1939. Further, there is a note at the bottom: "The sale of this device does not carry a license to use it for any commercial or revenue-earning purposes." So I think it likely that these were manufactured during WWII.
> 
> ...


 
  


 Never heard of them, but they do look kinda cool!
  
 I will be interested to hear your impressions after more hours of listening.


----------



## Mechans1

T didn't see any gettering/flashing in these tubes.  Is it there somewhere and what does the getter look like?  I assume it is towards/inside the base end of the tube.


----------



## gibosi

In the first and third pictures above, on the right, at the same level as the top of the base, you can just see the edge of a capital D getter. However, most of the getter splash is below the level of the top edge of the base.
  
 Edit: Here is a better picture. A big rectangular D getter


----------



## gibosi

Since these Australian-made AWA (Amalgamated Wireless Australasia Ltd) tubes were sold under the RCA "Radiotron" brand name, it seemed appropriate to try to compare one to a gray-glass RCA of the same vintage. Listening to a few songs through each tube, it is clear that the AWA is not simply an RCA manufactured in Australia. But given the differences in construction, this was not a surprise to me. My initial impression is the AWA tube is a tad bit brighter and airier than the RCA. I may be overreaching, but given that AWA had the rights to all present and future patents of Marconi and Telefunken, as well as RCA, I might say that it is a combination of RCA, Marconi and Telefunken. lol. Anyway, I think it is quite a nice tube.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi...thanks to you....here is my $13 treasure that just arrived today  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  

  

  

  
 This made me grin from ear to ear.


----------



## r one

great job ! made by TS ?


----------



## whirlwind

r one said:


> great job ! made by TS ?


 
 Yes sir, TSBGRP


----------



## SonicTrance

whirlwind said:


> gibosi...thanks to you....here is my $13 treasure that just arrived today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 $13? Nice!


----------



## Badas

Yip. TSRP. Damn I love this tube. I have 5 sets and plan on getting 9 more over the next few months. My end game tube.
  
 I run the 6F8G type.


----------



## SonicTrance

badas said:


> Yip. TSRP. Damn I love this tube. I have 5 sets and plan on getting 9 more over the next few months. My end game tube.
> 
> I run the 6F8G type.


 
 I got 2 pairs of the 6SL7 version and really like them. Would love to get my hands on the 6SN7 type too though.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Congrats on a great score whirlwind.  Sometimes you can, as rosgr63 used to say, catch the ebay gods sleeping.


----------



## r one

badas said:


> Yip. TSRP. Damn I love this tube. I have 5 sets and plan on getting 9 more over the next few months. My end game tube.
> 
> I run the 6F8G type.


 
 5 sets of Ts bgrp...damn a fortune ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've only one.


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> 5 sets of Ts bgrp...damn a fortune !  I've only one.




My aim is to get 14 sets. So I need 9 more sets. So I have arranged to buy 3sets per month of a seller over the next 3 months. Then I will be set. I also have 2 sets of NU and 28 sets (yes I'm not kidding 28 it is) of RCA.


----------



## r one

badas said:


> My aim is to get 14 sets. So I need 9 more sets. So I have arranged to buy 3sets per month of a seller over the next 3 months. Then I will be set. I also have 2 sets of NU and 28 sets (yes I'm not kidding 28 it is) of RCA.


 




 On Woo wa22 you use a pair of 6sn7, on my balancing Act i need only one. with approximately 2000-3000hours per set, you'll be able to listen during a century


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> :eek:
> On Woo wa22 you use a pair of 6sn7, on my balancing Act i need only one. with approximately 2000-3000hours per set, you'll be able to listen during a century




Yip. I don't plan to run out. 

What I do need to do is get a second set of cans. Cough* Ether cough*


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> r one said:
> 
> 
> > On Woo wa22 you use a pair of 6sn7, on my balancing Act i need only one. with approximately 2000-3000hours per set, you'll be able to listen during a century
> ...


 
 Ha!
  
 I don't think you will need to worry about running out  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I just recently bougt a couple TSBGRP 6F8G
  
 I cant wait to compare the sound with the 6SN7 version


----------



## SonicTrance

badas said:


> My aim is to get 14 sets. So I need 9 more sets. So I have arranged to buy 3sets per month of a seller over the next 3 months. Then I will be set. I also have 2 sets of NU and 28 sets (yes I'm not kidding 28 it is) of RCA.


 
 What adapters are you running for the 6F8G's? Chinese or something fancier?


----------



## Solrighal

Hi folks.
  
 I'm new to this thread & tube-rolling in general. I took delivery last week of a Project Ember Mk2 last week & in preparation had already bought a Sylvania 6SNtGTA & a National Union 6SN7GT. I'm unsure of the vintage of these valves though. The Sylvania is almost completely chrome looking and the National Union is mostly black.
  
 Today i also received a Canadian Armed Services JAN 6SN7GT. The base is marked General Electric & it's boxed & dated June 1/45. I've only been using the GE for about an hour but I think it's already sounding more to my taste than either of the others. Previously the Sylvania was my favourite but the GE seems punchier without losing the warmth. Time will tell though.
  
 Can anyone give me any tips on how to date the Sylvania & National Union?
  
 Thanks for taking the time.
  
 edit - Here's a photo of the three valves. Hopefully it might help with identification..
  

  
  
 Gordon.


----------



## gibosi

The NU and Sylvania "chrome dome" are both very likely from the early 1950's. Usually the dates were silk-screened on the base, but in your pictures, if they exist, they are not visible.


----------



## Solrighal

gibosi said:


> The NU and Sylvania "chrome dome" are both very likely from the early 1950's. Usually the dates were silk-screened on the base, but in your pictures, if they exist, they are not visible.


 
  
 Thanks for the quick response. Is that really a chrome dome? I know there was one sort of official chrome dome but I also know that many others had the same feature but were different in some way that meant they weren't genuine. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Any idea how these rate sound quality-wise? I like them all to be honest, but my reference points are non-existant. The GE seems a bit brighter, more SS sounding if that makes sense. The Sylvania seems much warmer in comparison. The NU seems to be somewhere in the middle.
  
 Gordon.


----------



## gibosi

solrighal said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Is that really a chrome dome? I know there was one sort of official chrome dome but I also know that many others had the same feature but were different in some way that meant they weren't genuine. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Any idea how these rate sound quality-wise? I like them all to be honest, but my reference points are non-existant. The GE seems a bit brighter, more SS sounding if that makes sense. The Sylvania seems much warmer in comparison. The NU seems to be somewhere in the middle.


 
  
 The classic "chrome dome" is either a 6SN7GT from the late 1940's or a 6SN7GTA from the early 1950's. It is characterized by a heavy chrome getter splash covering significantly more than half the bottle. Further, the demarcation between the chrome splatter and clear glass is ragged and hazy. In later tubes, the chrome typically covers significantly less than half the bottle, and the demarcation is a fairly clean and straight. These later tubes are often called chrome domes by some eBay vendors, but they are obviously different than the earlier tubes.
  
 As to sound quality, in my opinion, both the NU and chrome dome are terrific. However, everyone has different ears and different gear. For every person who thinks a certain tube is tops, there is another who thinks it is just OK. So in the end, I encourage you to trust your own ears.
  
 Cheers


----------



## r one

whirlwind said:


> Ha!
> 
> I don't think you will need to worry about running out
> 
> ...


 

 I have both versions. 6Sn7 is forward 6F8G for imaging and 3D sounding, but they sound both very close. My favorite is still the 6SN7.


----------



## Solrighal

gibosi said:


> The classic "chrome dome" is either a 6SN7GT from the late 1940's or a 6SN7GTA from the early 1950's. It is characterized by a heavy chrome getter splash covering significantly more than half the bottle. Further, the demarcation between the chrome splatter and clear glass is ragged and hazy. In later tubes, the chrome typically covers significantly less than half the bottle, and the demarcation is a fairly clean and straight. These later tubes are often called chrome domes by some eBay vendors, but they are obviously different than the earlier tubes.
> 
> As to sound quality, in my opinion, both the NU and chrome dome are terrific. However, everyone has different ears and different gear. For every person who thinks a certain tube is tops, there is another who thinks it is just OK. So in the end, I encourage you to trust your own ears.
> 
> Cheers


 
  
 Brilliant post mate, thank you.
  
 Yes, my one is mostly chrome but it is uneven. It has the remnants of some yellow writing on the base but not enough to make any sense. Someone's written on the actual tube in felt pen (?) "83/89" and below that "50". On the top of the tube it says 6SN7GTAwithin a gold hexagon and just below that what looks like "K2R".
  
 I do like both but now I've had a couple of hours with the GE I actually think I prefer that. It's a bit punchier & transients seem to be quicker. The snare on John Mayer's 'Gravity' is incredible now! That valve's a VT231 for what it's worth. I'm not too sure what that actually means but I'm led to believe it's got something to do with it being a bit beefier in the build. It doesn't appear as warm as the Chrome Dome though so I'm not sure what I'll settle on. The NU is a bit meh to be honest. Perhaps it hasn't been burned in enough, if that makes any difference at all.
  
 Thanks again. It's nice to learn new stuff.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Ha!
> 
> I don't think you will need to worry about running out
> 
> ...




I have compared. Some say they can hear a very slight difference in favor of the 6SN7. I couldn't hear a difference at all.





sonictrance said:


> What adapters are you running for the 6F8G's? Chinese or something fancier?




I have a set of the Glenn adapters. I also have a second set being made. Evidently with caps that came from a factory in the 50's. So the adapters will be partly NOS. 

Edit: Pic


----------



## SonicTrance

badas said:


> I have compared. Some say they can hear a very slight difference in favor of the 6SN7. I couldn't hear a difference at all.
> I have a set of the Glenn adapters. I also have a second set being made. Evidently with caps that came from a factory in the 50's. So the adapters will be partly NOS.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ok, nice!


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Ha!
> ...


 
 I don't even have my amp yet, to compare the two tubes.
  
 It should be in the process of being made in the very near future...when ever it gets done and I receive it, i will be sure to post my findings on the 6F8G and the 6SN7 TSBGRP


----------



## r one

badas said:


> I have compared. Some say they can hear a very slight difference in favor of the 6SN7. I couldn't hear a difference at all.
> I have a set of the Glenn adapters. I also have a second set being made. Evidently with caps that came from a factory in the 50's. So the adapters will be partly NOS.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I see that the 6f8g's that you currently use are the round plate with round mica on top (the first generation). Mine are 6F8G round plate with oval mica and U spacers on top exactly like 6SN7 bgrp TS


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> I see that the 6f8g's that you currently use are the round plate with round mica on top (the first generation). Mine are 6F8G round plate with oval mica and U spacers on top exactly like 6SN7 bgrp TS


 
  
 The same three builds can be seen in both the 6F8G and the 6SN7:  flat plates - square mica, round plates - round mica, and round plates - oval mica.
  
 Below, three Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, one of each


----------



## gibosi

solrighal said:


> Yes, my one is mostly chrome but it is uneven. It has the remnants of some yellow writing on the base but not enough to make any sense. Someone's written on the actual tube in felt pen (?) "83/89" and below that "50". On the top of the tube it says 6SN7GTAwithin a gold hexagon and just below that what looks like "K2R".
> 
> I do like both but now I've had a couple of hours with the GE I actually think I prefer that. It's a bit punchier & transients seem to be quicker. The snare on John Mayer's 'Gravity' is incredible now! That valve's a VT231 for what it's worth. I'm not too sure what that actually means but I'm led to believe it's got something to do with it being a bit beefier in the build. It doesn't appear as warm as the Chrome Dome though so I'm not sure what I'll settle on. The NU is a bit meh to be honest. Perhaps it hasn't been burned in enough, if that makes any difference at all.


 
  
 83/89 over 50: Apparently someone measured this tube and wrote the results directly on the glass.
  
 K2R: K = November, 2 = 1952 and many speculate that R = the factory. However, I have no idea which one it might be. By 1945, Sylvania had 29 factories and over 30,000 employees.
  
 Personally, I quite like the warmth of the chrome dome. In fact, I wish it was just tiny bit warmer, as I find that vocals are a little thin. I prefer a little more body and fullness, and the small bottle Sylvania 6SN7W gives that to me. 
  
 Your Canadian GE is a rather rare tube. I know that it exists, but I have never seen one, much less heard one, or even read anything about how it sounds. Apparently, Canadian GE was an autonomous division of GE and had been manufacturing their own tubes in Toronto since 1921. The VT231 nomenclature was nothing more than a US Army inventory number for 6SN7 during WWII. In terms of ruggedness, there appears to be no difference between VT231 provided to the military and 6SN7GT to consumer markets. (However, tubes with the suffix "W" often were ruggedized.) I have noticed that the Australians and Canadians also used the VT231 number as well. And the June 1/45 date on the box implies that this tube was manufactured sometime prior to June, 1945, and later packaged.
  
 And yes, in my experience burning-in does matter. I generally wait until I have at least 30 hours on a tube before coming to any conclusions.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Mechans1

The only question I have is where do you get thee adapters from.  I have asked before so I can only assume you don't want me an others to find out. That's OK, I'll ask some of my electrically adapt people I know for the answer.


----------



## Porteroso

If you are asking about 6SN7 --> 6F8G adapters, Glenn makes excellent ones, or cheap ones on ebay.


----------



## gibosi

I have had very good luck purchasing from Chinese vendors on eBay and I have lots of adapters. In addition to 6F8G, I also run various 8 and 9-pin all glass miniatures, such ECC40, E80CC, E88CC, E182CC, 6463 and 2C51, all requiring a different adapter, in my Glenn OTL. Currently, I have one 6F8G and one BL63/VR102 adapter. These tubes have the same pin-out, but as the 6F8G is a smaller tube, the wire on most adapters is not long enough to use with a BL63/VR102.


----------



## jibzilla

gibosi said:


> The classic "chrome dome" is either a 6SN7GT from the late 1940's or a 6SN7GTA from the early 1950's. It is characterized by a heavy chrome getter splash covering significantly more than half the bottle. Further, the demarcation between the chrome splatter and clear glass is ragged and hazy. In later tubes, the chrome typically covers significantly less than half the bottle, and the demarcation is a fairly clean and straight. These later tubes are often called chrome domes by some eBay vendors, but they are obviously different than the earlier tubes.
> 
> As to sound quality, in my opinion, both the NU and chrome dome are terrific. However, everyone has different ears and different gear. For every person who thinks a certain tube is tops, there is another who thinks it is just OK. So in the end, I encourage you to trust your own ears.
> 
> Cheers


 

 The latter chrome dome's are characterized as 6sn7gtb. I have one from brent jesse. It was my cheapest tube in a 6 pack I bought from him but still as enjoyable as the sofia princess and much more preferable than the tungsol new issue. Allot less than princess and the same price as the tungsol. The sylvania 6sn7w long bottle is my fav. tube but 6 times the price of the 6sn7gtb.


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> The only question I have is where do you get thee adapters from.  I have asked before so I can only assume you don't want me an others to find out. That's OK, I'll ask some of my electrically adapt people I know for the answer.




Yeah Glenn makes great adapters. He does really cool things like on my WA22 he makes the left and right adapters different so once installed the wires don't hit any other tubes. 

When I first started I used a set of Asian adapters from eSlay. They worked great as well. However as you see the wires can go out anywhere.


----------



## r one

gibosi said:


> The same three builds can be seen in both the 6F8G and the 6SN7:  flat plates - square mica, round plates - round mica, and round plates - oval mica.
> 
> Below, three Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, one of each


 

 which one do you prefer between three versions ?


----------



## Solrighal

gibosi said:


> 83/89 over 50: Apparently someone measured this tube and wrote the results directly on the glass.
> 
> K2R: K = November, 2 = 1952 and many speculate that R = the factory. However, I have no idea which one it might be. By 1945, Sylvania had 29 factories and over 30,000 employees.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's another excellent post & I thank you for taking the time. I'm learning, slowly but surely.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> Apparently, Canadian GE was an autonomous division of GE and had been manufacturing their own tubes in Toronto since 1921.


 
  
 The Toronto operation became the core of a new company called the Radio Valve Co. of Canada (RVC). This was a joint venture of CGE and Canadian Marconi and supplied tubes to both. You can find CGEs and Marconi Radiotrons that are in fact the same tube!
  

http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=250525


----------



## Oskari

solrighal said:


>


 
  
 Cf.
  

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/143973-rare_marconi_6sn7_gt_pair/images/169193/
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/165736-marconi_jan_6sn7_matched_nos_pair_black_t_plates/images/205287/


----------



## Skylab

Relative to the Tung-Sol 6F8G versus the 6SN7, when comparing the same style tubes in all other respects (same plates, mica, etc), I had a marginal preference for the 6F8G, actually. I thought the soundstage was more spacious. But given that we are talking about very old tubes, sample-to-sample variation will likely matter more than any real difference between the identical 6SN7 and 6F8G versions. 

It always surprises me how little love the Sylvania 6SN7WGTA seems to get. It's a very well balanced tube that does everything very well, even if it doesn't do any one thing spectacularly. Every one I have tried has been dead quiet, and one can get them fairly affordably, certainly by BGRP standards. I'm using them exclusively in my Cary SLP-05, because I had a hard time getting three pairs of TS BGRP that were all quiet enough.


----------



## Mechans1

badas said:


> Yeah Glenn makes great adapters. He does really cool things like on my WA22 he makes the left and right adapters different so once installed the wires don't hit any other tubes.
> 
> When I first started I used a set of Asian adapters from eSlay. They worked great as well. However as you see the wires can go out anywhere.


 

 Thank you, I hope I can find either of them as my  Extreme uses only one and is well space from the others.  Thanks again I appreciate it in a way.  What will I do with my stupidly large collection of 6SN7s, not all are gems.


----------



## Mechans1

With regard to your comment on the Sylvania WGTAs they are pretty good but as you say a bit undistinguished at anything in particular.  Had you tried to assemble a collection of WGTs (not WGTAs you would have gotten something very good to really special.  They tend to be very quiet, that's for one but more that that they are fast and are not prone to distortion which is heard as a clean signal. They are good tonally neutral as well,  not the "Big Tone" but OK.
 BTW I agree with you on the TSRPs out of 6 I managed to put together 2that  are good.  The others are played out and just don't do it for me. 
 I decided to try to collect british 6SN7 variants and have been rewarded. I have a pair of the Tung Sols and wouldn't pass up an opportunity for a few more of the good ones but you just don't know what your getting, IME anyway.


----------



## Skylab

I have a bunch of Sylvania WGTs as well as the WGTAs, I like the WGTs too. But the WGTAs are quieter, and in a preamp, quiet is really important


----------



## Badas

So far out of the 5 sets of TSRP's I have collected they have sounded identical. I have rolled them all and put a few hours on them. All were exactly the same.

They were all NOS and NIB and all the same batch. They were also obviously never opened before as they were so dusty. 

I haven't actually never experienced one with a different signature.


----------



## r one

my aim is different. Tube that i use the most is TS 6F8G, i've 3 nos for spare parts. But i like to have some different flavor of sound in case of changing dac or headphone in the futur. So i've one NOS of the most famous for bass (RCA and Ken RAD), mids (Mullard ecc, Brimar and Fivre) and high (Sylvania).


----------



## Mechans1

I would argue that the best Sylvania tubes as 6SN7s such as the W, have glorious midrange as well as the upper registers.  Admittedly they are a tad bass shy.  I have been listening to a Brimar CV 1988 6SN7GTY with some old Jackson Browne,  whicg has some beautiful bass and upper bass and this tubes made a Ken Rad I had in easy reach sound thin.  In fairness I didn't give it a lot of warm up time.  I had marked the box of the Ken Rad as "sounds great", well not sure what happened but I have a few of the Ken Rads , that one was a CKR-VT-231 staggered plate if that means anything.
 Obviously we are comparing somewhat dissimilar tube types and I don't know what 6F8Gs tend to do to the sound as a rule
  
 as an aside-
 It is interesting that even the little Bravo amp I bought on a whim, sporting one 12AU7 can reproduce the same music reasonably well, albeit not as rich or layered .  Still that one tube and the solid state stuff in that mini amp can play.  I am an inveterate tube collector and roller.  I have had the Bravo for 3 weeks or so and can't find the stock tube.  As far as 12AU7s go it has been given every advantage tube wise to sound good.


----------



## r one

mechans1 said:


> I would argue that the best Sylvania tubes as 6SN7s such as the W, have glorious midrange as well as the upper registers.  Admittedly they are a tad bass shy.  I have been listening to a Brimar CV 1988 6SN7GTY with some old Jackson Browne,  whicg has some beautiful bass and upper bass and this tubes made a Ken Rad I had in easy reach sound thin.  In fairness I didn't give it a lot of warm up time.  I had marked the box of the Ken Rad as "sounds great", well not sure what happened but I have a few of the Ken Rads , that one was a CKR-VT-231 staggered plate if that means anything.


 
 I'm totally agree with you for Brimar : one of my favorite for his upper bass.
 I'm also disappointed with ken-rad like you.


----------



## dminches

gibosi said:


> I have had very good luck purchasing from Chinese vendors on eBay and I have lots of adapters. In addition to 6F8G, I also run various 8 and 9-pin all glass miniatures, such ECC40, E80CC, E88CC, E182CC, 6463 and 2C51, all requiring a different adapter, in my Glenn OTL. Currently, I have one 6F8G and one BL63/VR102 adapter. These tubes have the same pin-out, but as the 6F8G is a smaller tube, the wire on most adapters is not long enough to use with a BL63/VR102.




Do you have an adapter that allows a 6SN7 to be used instead of an ECC40? I need a pair of those and I haven't been able to find them.


----------



## 2359glenn

dminches said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > I have had very good luck purchasing from Chinese vendors on eBay and I have lots of adapters. In addition to 6F8G, I also run various 8 and 9-pin all glass miniatures, such ECC40, E80CC, E88CC, E182CC, 6463 and 2C51, all requiring a different adapter, in my Glenn OTL. Currently, I have one 6F8G and one BL63/VR102 adapter. These tubes have the same pin-out, but as the 6F8G is a smaller tube, the wire on most adapters is not long enough to use with a BL63/VR102.
> ...


 

 What amp uses that crazy tube?


----------



## dminches

2359glenn said:


> What amp uses that crazy tube?




It is actually my Lampizator DAC. Feel like making me some adapters?


----------



## 2359glenn

dminches said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > What amp uses that crazy tube?
> ...


 

 I have made 6SN7 to ECC40 but to find a tube base like that crazy rimlock base is impossible.
 If you can find a base I will make it.


----------



## dminches

2359glenn said:


> I have made 6SN7 to ECC40 but to find a tube base like that crazy rimlock base is impossible.
> If you can find a base I will make it.




I should just have you put in 6SN7 sockets and get rid of the ECC40 compatibility.


----------



## gibosi

2359glenn said:


> I have made 6SN7 to ECC40 but to find a tube base like that crazy rimlock base is impossible.
> If you can find a base I will make it.


 
  
 Could you just cut the bases off a pair of cheap ECC40s?


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > I have made 6SN7 to ECC40 but to find a tube base like that crazy rimlock base is impossible.
> ...


 

 They are all glass except for the metal rim.
 I guess could smash one and try to use the bottom.


----------



## gibosi

2359glenn said:


> They are all glass except for the metal rim.
> I guess could smash one and try to use the bottom.


 
  
 Yes, this is what I had in mind. I have some C3g to 6AK5 adapters from one of the Chinese eBay vendors made this way. You can clearly see the bottom of a 7-pin glass 6AK5 embedded in the bottom of the adapter.


----------



## dminches

2359glenn said:


> They are all glass except for the metal rim.
> I guess could smash one and try to use the bottom.




I have a pair os CV3884s which I would be willing to sacrifice. I think these were the stock tubes that I replaced with a pair of Tungsrams.


----------



## 2359glenn

dminches said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > They are all glass except for the metal rim.
> ...


 

 You need 2 adapters?  is there a height restriction ?


----------



## dminches

2359glenn said:


> You need 2 adapters?  is there a height restriction ?




Yes, I need 2. No height restrictions. they are actually mounted on the underside of the unit and hang down. I will put the unit on blocks if I need to.


----------



## 2359glenn

dminches said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > You need 2 adapters?  is there a height restriction ?
> ...


 
 OK send them to me. I will see if I can do it before I destroy them.
 You must want this adapter pretty bad does the ECC40 sound like crap?


----------



## dminches

2359glenn said:


> OK send them to me. I will see if I can do it before I destroy them.
> You must want this adapter pretty bad does the ECC40 sound like crap?




The ECC40s don't sound like crap but I have a ton of 6SN7s that I would like to try.

I will ship them this week.


----------



## Mechans1

Your experience is actually not what the WGTs and the WGTAs are known for.  The WGTs are thought to be the better of the two by a long shot including preamp performance and low noise.  That's what I have been told and experienced.  The WGTs are fast, clean and dimensional. Clean means quiet, but I can't argue with your personal experience.


----------



## 2359glenn

dminches said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > OK send them to me. I will see if I can do it before I destroy them.
> ...


 

 OK   are the ECC40s recessed in the chassis at all?


----------



## dminches

2359glenn said:


> OK   are the ECC40s recessed in the chassis at all?




Yes. Do you need a picture?


----------



## dminches

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue73/lampizator.htm

This link has a picture.


----------



## 2359glenn

dminches said:


> http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue73/lampizator.htm
> 
> This link has a picture.


 

 I guess it is wide enough for a 6SN7?


----------



## Stereolab42

More than three days left, and bids are already past 600$ for a pair of metal-base WWII Sylvanias:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-WWII-Sylvania-JAN-CHS-6SN7W-metal-base-tubes-test-strong-tube-amp-6SN7-/111658440812?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ff5c986c
  
 Insane!


----------



## dminches

2359glenn said:


> I guess it is wide enough for a 6SN7?




It currentlty has a 6x5 rectifier in that same area so a 6SN7 should be fine.


----------



## gibosi

Quote: 





dminches said:


> The ECC40s don't sound like crap but I have a ton of 6SN7s that I would like to try.


 
  
 I prefer the late 1940's and early-to-mid 1950's Philips production more than the Tungsram. However, I like the Tungsram better than Philip's later production.
  
 And for those who have no experience with this tube, in the late 1940's, Philips developed the all-glass miniature ECC40 to replace the 6SN7. Electrically, it is a bit closer to the Mullard ECC32 than a 6SN7, but still close enough to enable easy substitution in existing circuits. But as we all know, the 6SN7 simply "refused" to go away. And further, the ECC40 was designed to use an odd 8-pin Rimlock base which never gained much traction. While the ECC40 was reasonably common in European radios of the time, it was soon displaced by similar 9-pin miniatures, such as the 12AU7 and 6DJ8.
  
 The earliest ones had metal bases. Later, the metal bases were discontinued and the glass "fattened" to fit in the socket


----------



## dminches

Thanks for all the information. I had never seen the metal base versions before. Wealth of information here.


----------



## rosgr63

David we have talked about the ECC40 sometime ago, if you remember.
  
 I have a nice selection but didn't care for them much.


----------



## dminches

rosgr63 said:


> David we have talked about the ECC40 sometime ago, if you remember.
> 
> I have a nice selection but didn't care for them much.


 
  
 Stavros, I do remember.  It was around the time I got the DAC.
  
 If owning the ECC40s is bothering you feel free to send me a box.


----------



## Mechans1

What do the ecc40s do.  Do they act like 6SN7s in the same circuits.  They aren't direct subs are they?


----------



## 2359glenn

mechans1 said:


> What do the ecc40s do.  Do they act like 6SN7s in the same circuits.  They aren't direct subs are they?


 

 They are electrically the same in a smaller tube with a different base


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> What do the ecc40s do.  Do they act like 6SN7s in the same circuits.  They aren't direct subs are they?


 
  
 With a simple pin-adapter, I roll these in my Glenn OTL, and as one might expect, some I like and some I don't....
  
 For anyone interested in these tubes, it might be useful to know... Telefunken never made these... Siemens never made these.... Mullard never made these... Lorenz never made these.... Only Tungsram and Philips.
  
 A bulge in the glass at the base indicates Philips. No bulge, straight glass, indicates Tungsram.
  
 In the late 1940's through the mid-1950s, Philips manufactured these in Eindhoven (at two different factories) and Sittard, Holland; Suresnes, France and Hamburg, Germany. At some point in the late 1950's or early 1960's, Philips began to consolidate all production to their Chartres factory in France.


----------



## SonicTrance

kingstyles said:


> Just curious, has anybody ever tried these? Meixing Mingda 6SN7


 
 I have to bump this question. Has anyone heard these tubes? They do look amazing


----------



## Mechans1

sonictrance said:


> I have to bump this question. Has anyone heard these tubes? They do look amazing


 

 These 101D shaped 6SN7s were first introduced a few years ago to middling reviews from the audio community (if that's what we prefer to called lovers of audio instead of  audiophiles.  My besotted brain cannot recall with which products it was affiliated but "Grant Fidelity " which had the U.S.  Black Treasure distributing license I seem to recall, comes to mind.  I will ask around.


----------



## Shaffer

sonictrance said:


> I have to bump this question. Has anyone heard these tubes? *They do look amazing*




Yes, terribly sexy.


----------



## r one

wow ! sexy stuff.


----------



## gibosi

Picked up the NU on the left for cheap recently, black glass,  but no gap at the base, and wasn't at all sure what I would be getting. However, it appears to be similar to version 3, that is, flat black plates, round top mica with spacers, but the bottom mica is round, not rectangular. Most importantly, it sounds like a standard black glass NU. Interesting, but I am glad it was cheap.


----------



## Mechans1

I was told by a very well informed collector/seller of mainly 6SN7s that  the black glass there is no significant sonic difference.  The only real difference is the attendant coolness factor.  black glass look so  much better. 
 Actually Their is a difference in truth, which is easy to understand  the black glass absorbs heat better  yielding slightly lower internal elements.


----------



## Shaffer

mechans1 said:


> I was told by a very well informed collector/seller of mainly 6SN7s that  the black glass there is no significant sonic difference.  The only real difference is the attendant coolness factor.  black glass look so  much better.
> Actually Their is a difference in truth, which is easy to understand  the black glass absorbs heat better  yielding slightly lower internal elements.




To add, there's also some talk about different glass formulation being developed that made grey/black glass moot.


----------



## Solrighal

gibosi said:


> Picked up the NU on the left for cheap recently, black glass,  but no gap at the base, and wasn't at all sure what I would be getting. However, it appears to be similar to version 3, that is, flat black plates, round top mica with spacers, but the bottom mica is round, not rectangular. Most importantly, it sounds like a standard black glass NU. Interesting, but I am glad it was cheap.


 
  
 I only own three 6SN7's but one of them is the one on the right in this picture. It's the least satisfactory of the three.


----------



## gibosi

There is a very nice NU from the 1940s, grey-smoked glass, with squarish mica spacers attached to the top mica. It looks very similar to the RCA from the same period. However, unlike the RCA, there are some unique U-shaped metal structures situated on the top mica, used for vibration bracing and/or heat radiation? When I saw the one above, black glass with no gap, I thought it just might be the grey one, but in black. Unfortunately, the pictures weren't all that good, but since it was only $10, I thought it was worth the gamble. Now that I know it is no different than the common black one, I will label it as interesting, but nothing special, and store it away


----------



## Xcalibur255

The U shaped elements are heat radiators that assist with dissipation.  It helps tubes that were built for military use to last a bit longer when run at their maximum rating.
  
 If you got this tube for $10 you did very well, the grey glass NU is pretty rare, far less common than the black glass.  They sound pretty different too to my ears.
  
 Try it out and see if it is noisy, this is a fairly common problem with these tubes much like it can be with this era of Ken Rads.


----------



## 3083joe

rosgr63 said:


> It's not fun, it's an addiction!
> Where does one stop?


 

 FACT!


----------



## Neogeo333

gibosi said:


> There is a very nice NU from the 1940s, grey-smoked glass, with squarish mica spacers attached to the top mica. It looks very similar to the RCA from the same period. However, unlike the RCA, there are some unique U-shaped metal structures situated on the top mica, used for vibration bracing and/or heat radiation? When I saw the one above, black glass with no gap, I thought it just might be the grey one, but in black. Unfortunately, the pictures weren't all that good, but since it was only $10, I thought it was worth the gamble. Now that I know it is no different than the common black one, I will label it as interesting, but nothing special, and store it away


 
 These looks like the NU that have US Navy on the base.   Usually the Navy ones taller glass but some are normal height.   Pretty good overall 6sn7.


----------



## 3083joe

neogeo333 said:


> These looks like the NU that have US Navy on the base.   Usually the Navy ones taller glass but some are normal height.   Pretty good overall 6sn7.


 

 Very nice!


----------



## 3083joe

What should be the first 6sn7 tubes i purchase?


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> What should be the first 6sn7 tubes i purchase?


 

 What kind of sound signature do you like?
  
 If Bright and ultra detailed then I would go Sylvania.
 If Neutral I would go Tung-Sol, Raytheon or even NU.
 If Mellow and smooth I would go RCA (clearglass or greyglass (they sound the same)). These are my favorites, however they do roll a little treble.
  
 ^
  
 Real lame man terms.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> What kind of sound signature do you like?
> 
> If Bright and ultra detailed then I would go Sylvania.
> If Neutral I would go Tung-Sol, Raytheon or even NU.
> ...


 

 Thanks
 I like neutral with maybe a little warmth
 I listen mostly to Jazz, Female vocals
 Also Miles and Coltrane type stuff
 Highs can get me tho, often harsh to my ears


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Thanks
> I like neutral with maybe a little warmth
> I listen mostly to Jazz, Female vocals
> Also Miles and Coltrane type stuff
> Highs can get me tho, often harsh to my ears


 

 NU buddy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 NU is exactly what you have described. Probably best to use the 6F8g and the adapters. Pic below:


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> NU buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Beautiful
 Where would i get these adapters? These the ones with the wire? and should work in wa6 right?


----------



## isquirrel

3083joe said:


> Thanks
> I like neutral with maybe a little warmth
> I listen mostly to Jazz, Female vocals
> Also Miles and Coltrane type stuff
> Highs can get me tho, often harsh to my ears


 
 Best place to start is with an early pair of RCA Grey Glass, there is a huge variation in the quality of these. Some are just sublime, others are average. 
  
 Best to look for a pair badged VT-231 as these indicate military use and are most likely to be the right era (1940"s) I have attached an image to help you.
  
 The RCA's are magical with Vocals and not quite as forward as the Tung Sols while being a fair bit cheaper and easier to find.


----------



## isquirrel

badas said:


> NU buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No disrespect to Badas, but if you are new to this game then try and stay away from adapters they can cause issues, the wires can cause hum and generally not as simple as using 6SN7's. Just my 2 cents


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Fair call. Go for RCA first. You can't go wrong with them. If they roll the treble too much then try NU 6SN7.


----------



## r one

I agréé with 6f8g ma de by NU. You could try Mullard ecc33 for what you de arch but it's hard to find


----------



## musicman59

isquirrel said:


> Best place to start is with an early pair of RCA Grey Glass, there is a huge variation in the quality of these. Some are just sublime, others are average.
> 
> Best to look for a pair badged VT-231 as these indicate military use and are most likely to be the right era (1940"s) I have attached an image to help you.
> 
> The RCA's are magical with Vocals and not quite as forward as the Tung Sols while being a fair bit cheaper and easier to find.


 
 Who would be a good source for the VT-231 version?


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Fair call. Go for RCA first. You can't go wrong with them. If they roll the treble too much then try NU 6SN7.



So nu 6sn7 would be good right. 
About same cost as rca 6sn7 vt-231
If I want to try the 6f8g where would I get the adapters and the tubes?
Tia.


----------



## 3083joe

Is this the adapters?


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Is this the adapters?


 
  
 The eSlay ones work and as long as there is not interference they work well. The best ones are the Glenn adapters. A lot thicker wires.
  
 I used the eSlay ones and my remote control lights caused noise in the tubes. They had no noise as long as the lights were off. So they work okay.
  
 I then got the Glenn adapters and they were more solidly built and no interference at all. Well worth it.
  
 Pics below of Glenn adapters. I had two different sets made for my WA22.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> The eSlay ones work and as long as there is not interference they work well. The best ones are the Glenn adapters. A lot thicker wires.
> 
> I used the eSlay ones and my remote control lights caused noise in the tubes. They had no noise as long as the lights were off. So they work okay.
> 
> ...


 

 All i can say is I love the amp!
 One i wanted but couldn't go that high in price at this time maybe one day
 but i will for sure get them from Glenn, make more since


----------



## Mechans1

Let me crash this party and say if you want a really good 6SN7 IMO not just the one you have heard get a Sylvania GT.  They come in different types the chrome domes,  which people think sound better with the mil spec. metal base, making them expensive, other mil spec,   which sound great to me and the early civilian also a good tube.  The next variant has a bottom getter which are all erroneously called Bad Boys but do look like them.  They sound good too and come in mil spec. VT231.   You might want to try them, they are all immensely popular.  Nothing against the RCA which is indeed a  very very nice tube as is the NU.  I own them all but have not invested yet another fortune in the 6SN7 predecessors and it's adaptor,  I understand they do sound extraordinarily good.


----------



## isquirrel

mechans1 said:


> Let me crash this party and say if you want a really good 6SN7 IMO not just the one you have heard get a Sylvania GT.  They come in different types the chrome domes,  which people think sound better with the mil spec. metal base, making them expensive, other mil spec,   which sound great to me and the early civilian also a good tube.  The next variant has a bottom getter which are all erroneously called Bad Boys but do look like them.  They sound good too and come in mil spec. VT231.   You might want to try them, they are all immensely popular.  Nothing against the RCA which is indeed a  very very nice tube as is the NU.  I own them all but have not invested yet another fortune in the 6SN7 predecessors and it's adaptor,  I understand they do sound extraordinarily good.


 

 I agree, the Sylvania's (right vintage) must be on anyone's top 5 list of the best 6SN7's out there, at this level it all comes down to system synergy.


----------



## 3083joe

mechans1 said:


> Let me crash this party and say if you want a really good 6SN7 IMO not just the one you have heard get a Sylvania GT.  They come in different types the chrome domes,  which people think sound better with the mil spec. metal base, making them expensive, other mil spec,   which sound great to me and the early civilian also a good tube.  The next variant has a bottom getter which are all erroneously called Bad Boys but do look like them.  They sound good too and come in mil spec. VT231.   You might want to try them, they are all immensely popular.  Nothing against the RCA which is indeed a  very very nice tube as is the NU.  I own them all but have not invested yet another fortune in the 6SN7 predecessors and it's adaptor,  I understand they do sound extraordinarily good.


 

 Thanks


----------



## Xcalibur255

I find the fact that you can get away with running a 5Z4G rectifier in a WA22 to be pretty interesting.


----------



## 3083joe

mechans1 said:


> Let me crash this party and say if you want a really good 6SN7 IMO not just the one you have heard get a Sylvania GT.  They come in different types the chrome domes,  which people think sound better with the mil spec. metal base, making them expensive, other mil spec,   which sound great to me and the early civilian also a good tube.  The next variant has a bottom getter which are all erroneously called Bad Boys but do look like them.  They sound good too and come in mil spec. VT231.   You might want to try them, they are all immensely popular.  Nothing against the RCA which is indeed a  very very nice tube as is the NU.  I own them all but have not invested yet another fortune in the 6SN7 predecessors and it's adaptor,  I understand they do sound extraordinarily good.



Is this anywhere near what you are talking about


----------



## MDR30

Bought a tall Raytheon 6SN7GTB from Minnesota. Made in Japan. Surprised me, but impressions from earlier in the thread are favourable.
  
 Seems to be comfortable in my amp.


----------



## Badas

mdr30 said:


> Bought a tall Raytheon 6SN7GTB from Minnesota. Made in Japan. Surprised me, but impressions from earlier in the thread are favourable.
> 
> Seems to be comfortable in my amp.


 
  
 Looks like the same plates as the RCA's. Different micra's tho. How is the sound?


----------



## Xcalibur255

It's a Hitachi.  Some people like them quite a bit.


----------



## Badas

With plates do they get mixed around with other manufacturers?
  
 For example those plates above look like RCA. However I have seen those plates on Raytheon, Kenrad and Tung-Sol 6F8G's as well.
  
 The NU 6F8G plates I have seen on Italian tubes, RCA and Kenrad 6F8G also.
  
 You kinda see the same plates but different manufacturers implement them differently. I have a RCA and NU 6F8g with the same plates however everything else internally is different. Similar sound but not exactly the same.


----------



## Xcalibur255

You have to look for smaller details in the construction.  Many manufacturers made ladder plates or t-plates but all had small variations in construction techniques that make them identifiable from one another.


----------



## MDR30

badas said:


> Looks like the same plates as the RCA's. Different micra's tho. How is the sound?


 
  
 Sounds fine in my set-up (comparable to my Sylvania and Metz alternatives) which is a bit unusual: OTL balanced anode/cathode output driving a HD580 at the moment.
  
 The 6SN7 has higher output impedance than the amp's standard tube 6AS7G, but fine for the 300 ohms Sennheiser.


----------



## Xcalibur255

MDR, If you like the sound of this substitution with high Z headphones, you should try subbing a 6BL7 or 6BX7 as well if you haven't already.


----------



## dminches

Someone was looking for these, I think.  I am not selling them, but saw them.
  
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tubes-rare-rca-smoke-glass-jan-crc-6sn7gt-vt-231-6sn7-tubes-true-matched-quad-test-nos-holy-2015-06-05-accessories-j2a1e4


----------



## Mechans1

3083joe said:


> Is this anywhere near what you are talking about


 
 No these  are CRC meaning RCA grey glass tubes not Sylvania which would have been designated by CHS and to my knowledge never had a grey glass version.  How do these sound, do you like them?


>


----------



## MDR30

xcalibur255 said:


> MDR, If you like the sound of this substitution with high Z headphones, you should try subbing a 6BL7 or 6BX7 as well if you haven't already.




Interesting. Are they direct replacements in a 6as7g circuit?


----------



## Xcalibur255

mdr30 said:


> Interesting. Are they direct replacements in a 6as7g circuit?


 
  
 No, but if you were able to run a 6SN7 without blowing it up then these will be perfectly ok.  Actually I'm not really sure how you aren't blowing up a 6SN7 in your amp if it's primarily designed for a 6AS7G.  The difference in both heater and plate current is large between those two tubes.  Unless I misunderstood your post, I read it as you running 6SN7s in the output stage in place of the 6AS7Gs, right?
  
 If you are only running the 6SN7 as the first stage then ignore my suggestion, although as long as your power tranny is robust it's possible to sub a 6BL7 in that situation too.


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> Let me crash this party and say if you want a really good 6SN7 IMO not just the one you have heard get a Sylvania GT.  They come in different types the chrome domes,  which people think sound better with the mil spec. metal base, making them expensive, other mil spec,   which sound great to me and the early civilian also a good tube.  The next variant has a bottom getter which are all erroneously called Bad Boys but do look like them.  They sound good too and come in mil spec. VT231.   You might want to try them, they are all immensely popular.  Nothing against the RCA which is indeed a  very very nice tube as is the NU.  I own them all but have not invested yet another fortune in the 6SN7 predecessors and it's adaptor,  I understand they do sound extraordinarily good.




It shows how different we all are. I tried the Sylvania and I couldn't think of a tube I dislike more ( well maybe the new production Tung-Sol). If that was the only tube available as a driver I would quit tubes all together. 

The 6F8g is well worth the effort. Whole other level. The worst sounding 6F outperforms my best 6S by a lot.


----------



## Badas

xcalibur255 said:


> I find the fact that you can get away with running a 5Z4G rectifier in a WA22 to be pretty interesting.




5Z4 is on the WA22 list as useable rectifiers. No issues at all.


----------



## Xcalibur255

badas said:


> 5Z4 is on the WA22 list as useable rectifiers. No issues at all.


 
  
 Exactly my point.


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> 5Z4 is on the WA22 list as useable rectifiers. No issues at all.


 
  
 Have you actually used them? They look kind of... frightening. But cheap. I'm thinking of picking up a few just for the lulz:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Radio-Vacuum-Tubes-5Z4-JAN-RCA-METAL-2-NIB-NOS-10-available-/131522611182?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9f5bc7ee


----------



## Badas

xcalibur255 said:


> Exactly my point.




Okay. I got ya.


----------



## Badas

stereolab42 said:


> Have you actually used them? They look kind of... frightening. But cheap. I'm thinking of picking up a few just for the lulz:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Radio-Vacuum-Tubes-5Z4-JAN-RCA-METAL-2-NIB-NOS-10-available-/131522611182?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9f5bc7ee




Damn. They do look interesting and scary.


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> Damn. They do look interesting and scary.


 
  
 I just bought a few... couldn't resist seeing how they will look in my black WA5.


----------



## abvolt

I would agree with *Badas* the 6F8G's took my wa22 to a really nice level compared any of my 6SN7's it's definitely noticeable. The 6F8G images nicely, upper mid are very nice also has a good low end, can't see myself going back to my 6SN7's anytime soon..


----------



## isquirrel

stereolab42 said:


> I just bought a few... couldn't resist seeing how they will look in my black WA5.


 

 They look interesting, any idea of how they sound?


----------



## Stereolab42

isquirrel said:


> They look interesting, any idea of how they sound?


 
  
 For the price, I don't really care as long as they don't blow up the amp.


----------



## isquirrel

They are RCA's should be excellent reliability.


----------



## 3083joe

abvolt said:


> I would agree with *Badas* the 6F8G's took my wa22 to a really nice level compared any of my 6SN7's it's definitely noticeable. The 6F8G images nicely, upper mid are very nice also has a good low end, can't see myself going back to my 6SN7's anytime soon..



Agreed just made the switch on my wa6.


----------



## gibosi

mdr30 said:


> Bought a tall Raytheon 6SN7GTB from Minnesota. Made in Japan. Surprised me, but impressions from earlier in the thread are favourable.


 
  
 And here is an earlier Hitachi 6SN7GTA with black plates and bottom D-getter. Apparently, in the 1950's, Raytheon licensed technology and outsourced much of their vacuum tube production to Hitachi, and these tubes were sold under the Raytheon, Hitachi, Hit-Ray and other brands.


----------



## gibosi

I have been very curious to try some new-production 6SN7, such as Psvane and the like, but given the many luke-warm reviews I have read, the prices have simply been too high just to try. Recently, I managed to purchase a nice pair of used Synergy HiFi / Create Audio 6SN7 quite inexpensively.
  

  
 According to this review by 6moons, these tubes are manufactured for Synergy HiFi by Shuguang, However, they are not rebrands. Apparently, Shuguang will custom build vacuum tubes for others in minimum lots of 500. So Synergy provides Shuguang with their own propriety technology and materials and Shuguang builds them. Further, according to Synergy, this technology cannot be used in Shuguang's own brands.  
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/synergy/300B.html
  
 Anyway, I popped one of them into my Glenn OTL. For the last week or so, I have been listening to a small-bottle Sylvania 6SN7W with a Mullard GZ32 and a pair of Bendix slotted graphite 6080WB. My first impression, it is not as warm as the Sylvania and perhaps less spacious. But as this impression is based on less than 30 minutes of casual listening,, I really can't say anything definitive at this time.


----------



## kmitschiener

Has anyone here had a chance to hear these tubes? http://www.amazon.com/Tung-Sol-6SN7GTB-Preamp-Vacuum-Matched/dp/B007RGB3N8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1433652199&sr=8-3&keywords=6sn7+tube


----------



## Badas

kmitschiener said:


> Has anyone here had a chance to hear these tubes? http://www.amazon.com/Tung-Sol-6SN7GTB-Preamp-Vacuum-Matched/dp/B007RGB3N8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1433652199&sr=8-3&keywords=6sn7+tube




In a nutshell. Rubbish.


----------



## kmitschiener

Oh really, what's wrong with them?


----------



## Amish

kmitschiener said:


> Oh really, what's wrong with them?


 

 Dude...don't worry about what others like or dislike. Our ears are all different. He might hate that tube but you may love it.
  
 If I listened to everyone on this site about which tubes rocked Vs which tubes sucked...I wouldn't have tried half the tubes I have.
  
 I say roll away.


----------



## kmitschiener

Actually I own a pair, but the only reference I have is the stock tube that came with my dark voice. I'm just looking for a second opinion haha.


----------



## Badas

amish said:


> Dude...don't worry about what others like or dislike. Our ears are all different. He might hate that tube but you may love it.
> 
> If I listened to everyone on this site about which tubes rocked Vs which tubes sucked...I wouldn't have tried half the tubes I have.
> 
> I say roll away.




Yeah. Actually that is good advice. Roll away. No harm in trying. 

It is not a well regarded tube tho and yes I have listened and the result was the rubbish bin (I didn't hold them high enough to give them storage space). Others might think differently.


----------



## Shaffer

kmitschiener said:


> Oh really, what's wrong with them?




From the Elise rolling guide: http://www.head-fi.org/t/765460/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998/45#post_11637768

"Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (Russian) - New production. Smooth, layered sound. What it lacks in overall transparency is made up by being very listenable for extended periods. Some would call it musical. I call it non-offensive."


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> According to this review by 6moons, these tubes are manufactured for Synergy HiFi by Shuguang, However, they are not rebrands. Apparently, Shuguang will custom build vacuum tubes for others in minimum lots of 500. So Synergy provides Shuguang with their own propriety technology and materials and Shuguang builds them. Further, according to Synergy, this technology cannot be used in Shuguang's own brands.




Who knows? The design is familiar, though: http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Other_brands_OEM_Tubes_Shuguang/6SN7GT_Shuguang_3864


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> Who knows? The design is familiar, though: http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Other_brands_OEM_Tubes_Shuguang/6SN7GT_Shuguang_3864


 
  
 Yes, it does. And on the same site, the construction of the 6SN7GT TAD Premium Selected also looks to be virtually the same....
  
 http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Premium_Tubes_TAD_Pre_Amp_Tubes_SELECTED/6SN7GT_TAD_Premium_Selected_808
  
 And it also makes sense... Since Shuguang manufactures tubes for Synergy HiFi, and others I assume, they would attempt to use as many stock parts as possible: bottles, micas, bases, getter holders, heat radiators, plates and so forth. But for sure, who knows? Since I don't have one of these TAD or Shuguang lookalikes, I certainly don't...


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> And it also makes sense... Since Shuguang manufactures tubes for Synergy HiFi, and others I assume, they would attempt to use as many stock parts as possible: bottles, micas, bases, getter holders, heat radiators, plates and so forth.


 
  
 All true, which doesn't leave much room for Synergy's technology.
  
 I'm just a tiny bit skeptical.


----------



## amalgamist

edit: found the answer to my question


----------



## MIKELAP

amalgamist said:


> edit: found the answer to my question


 

 Is there ?


----------



## 3083joe

amalgamist said:


> edit: found the answer to my question


 
 What was the difference that you found?
 Cause i own both
 tia


----------



## MIKELAP

3083joe said:


> amalgamist said:
> 
> 
> > edit: found the answer to my question
> ...


 
 i saw that the 6c8g is similar to a 6SL7 but can it be used like a 6F8G with its adapter ? it doest look like it but would anybody know for shure !


----------



## 3083joe

mikelap said:


> i saw that the 6c8g is similar to a 6SL7 but can it be used like a 6F8G with its adapter ? it doest look like it but would anybody know for shure !


 

@TonyNewman 
 told me yes same as 8F8G,
 same say weaker tube some say stronger tube
 not sure have both on way hopefully by this weekend i can tell you for sure what i see/hear


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> @TonyNewman
> told me yes same as 8F8G,
> same say weaker tube some say stronger tube
> not sure have both on way hopefully by this weekend i can tell you for sure what i see/hear


 
  
 The 6C8G has a gain of 36, almost twice that of a 6F8G, making it more similar to a 6SL7 than a 6SN7. That said, many folks run 6SL7s in their 6SN7 amps and think they sound fine.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> 3083joe said:
> 
> 
> > @TonyNewman
> ...


 

 Im trying a pair of of 6SU7GTY in my WA6  and it sounds as gould as anything else will try in WA22 see how they sounds ,but there not on the WOO compatible tube chart will check it out .


----------



## 3083joe

@MIKELAP
  
 Thanks for the Clarification


----------



## gibosi

mikelap said:


> Im trying a pair of of 6SU7GTY in my WA6  and it sounds as gould as anything else will try in WA22 see how they sounds ,but there not on the WOO compatible tube chart will check it out .


 
  
 I assume this chart?
  
 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DdsZyTx3CJv9_cG9kVdCGZap-AldiTsvuY4Ms1K_p3k/pub?hl=en&output=html
  
 But as that document states at the beginning: "The following chart is a limited survey of tube compatibility...." and therefore, it is not a full and complete list. You can also roll ECC40, ECC804, 13D3 and many others that are not on that list.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Im trying a pair of of 6SU7GTY in my WA6  and it sounds as gould as anything else will try in WA22 see how they sounds ,but there not on the WOO compatible tube chart will check it out .
> ...


 

 Yes that chart , life is good more tubes to roll lol.Thanks Gibosi


----------



## 3083joe

@MIKELAP 
@gibosi 
 Thanks guys been looking for that chart!


----------



## Badas

Tony and I were keeping this a little on the quiet while we stocked up. We have both stocked up now. 6C8G sounds the same as 6F8G. Also construction is identical. The 6C8G has been working well in my WA22 all year now.
  
 Pictured above is the Tung-Sol 6C8G Roundplate that I purchased for $70 (NOS, NIB) a pair instead of the usual $300 a pair for the 6F8G. We also grabbed NU and RCA versions.
  
  
  
 Here is the word from Jack Woo:
  
*Hi Dono,*
  
*6CG8 can be used on the WA22. There is no problem although the heater current is lower than 6F8G/6SN7. *
  
*I hope you will get a chance to hear the WA5 and the WA234 Mono. These amp are an ultimate step up from the WA22.*
  
*Cheers,
 Jack*
  
 It has a higher gain than the 6F8G. Very obvious. Works better than the 6F8G in a WA5. The 300B power tubes are too hard on the NU 6F8G (noise) however the 6C8G has no issues.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Tony and I were keeping this a little on the quiet while we stocked up. We have both stocked up now. 6C8G sounds the same as 6F8G. Also construction is identical. The 6C8G has been working well in my WA22 all year now.
> 
> Pictured above is the Tung-Sol 6C8G Roundplate that I purchased for $70 (NOS, NIB) a pair instead of the usual $300 a pair for the 6F8G. We also grabbed NU and RCA versions.
> 
> ...



Nice. Just ordered a set of nu 6c8.


----------



## Stereolab42

I love sniping away somebody's tubes because they were naive enough to bid a round number and I offered 65 cents more.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Nice.
  
 I don't bid on eSlay much anymore. I prefer to deal with tube sellers direct like Langrex. However when I did bid I never bid until there was only 20 seconds to go and stick in a autobid for what I was prepared to pay. I was amazed you would only pay $1 more than the current bid.


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Nice.
> 
> I don't bid on eSlay much anymore. I prefer to deal with tube sellers direct like Langrex. However when I did bid I never bid until there was only 20 seconds to go and stick in a autobid for what I was prepared to pay. I was amazed you would only pay $1 more than the current bid.


 
  
 Yup, the bid increment rules are very complex and don't really apply in a sniping situation where the goal is to blindly beat the max bid:
  
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Take-Advantage-of-Bid-Increments-/10000000002792188/g.html


----------



## 3083joe

What do you all think of this tube


----------



## Badas

^
  
 What is it? Is it a power tube? Looks like the Mullard rectifier. Looks bloody nice.


----------



## abvolt

GZ37 Mullard ?


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> ^
> 
> What is it? Is it a power tube? Looks like the Mullard rectifier. Looks bloody nice.


 

 Yes Mullard GZ37 CV378
 Curious if anyone has hear and their thoughts


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Yes Mullard GZ37 CV378
> Curious if anyone has hear and their thoughts


 

 Check here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/694525/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Check here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/694525/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread


 

 Yeah read it, was just wondering your guys thoughts if you had hear it


----------



## abvolt

I've never heard one I do love that mullard sound..


----------



## Stereolab42

3083joe said:


> Yes Mullard GZ37 CV378
> Curious if anyone has hear and their thoughts


 
  
 I have a bunch, they are excellent. But the primary eBay source for them has dried up...


----------



## MIKELAP

CONSOR GZ37 maybe .


----------



## MIKELAP

Langrex has some on Ebay $126.00 U.S.    and here in Canada        http://www.ebay.com/itm/360172678773?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## 3083joe

mikelap said:


> Langrex has some on Ebay $126.00 U.S.    and here in Canada        http://www.ebay.com/itm/360172678773?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT



Looking for the fat bottle ones they are rare. Running around 300


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Looking for the fat bottle ones they are rare. Running around 300


 

 What are GZ32's up to now? I have half a dozen of those. They rocketed up in price.


----------



## Stereolab42

mikelap said:


> Langrex has some on Ebay $126.00 U.S.    and here in Canada        http://www.ebay.com/itm/360172678773?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
  
 Nope, scroll down, they now say:
  
*THIS ITEM IS CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE*​ *PLEASE DO NOT BUY AT THIS TIME*​  ​ They're tapped out.


----------



## abvolt

I just got a gz32 from langrex it was 114.


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I just got a gz32 from langrex it was 114.


 

 Damn. All these tubes are going up fast. I got two from Upscale @ $70 each and another 4 from eSlay at $40 each late last year.


----------



## abvolt

Yeah I've noticed NOS tube prices going up almost every time I look..


----------



## Stereolab42

abvolt said:


> Yeah I've noticed NOS tube prices going up almost every time I look..


 
  
 And whose fault is that?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Get the GZ33 instead.  Nearly identical tube to the GZ37 with slightly less Vdrop and they sell for $50 less on average.  The difference in Vdrop will move the sound just a hair more in the direction you would get running a GZ34/5AR4 but it's subtle not dramatic.


----------



## kmitschiener

Just picked up some NOS tube. Is it normal for one channel to have static and no music for the first few hours?


----------



## SonicTrance

kmitschiener said:


> Just picked up some NOS tube. Is it normal for one channel to have static and no music for the first few hours?


 
 Definitely not normal. Music should always be playing. Try cleaning the pins, could work.


----------



## kmitschiener

Thanks!
 How do you guys clean your pins?
 does the popping damage headphones?


----------



## SonicTrance

kmitschiener said:


> Thanks!
> How do you guys clean your pins?
> does the popping damage headphones?


 
 I use Deoxit but you can also use fine grit sandpaper. I guess it depends on how loud the "pops" are?


----------



## isquirrel

kmitschiener said:


> Just picked up some NOS tube. Is it normal for one channel to have static and no music for the first few hours?


 

 No should be working with no noise in both channels otherwise its faulty. Occasionally you can bring them to life by taking it out and gently tapping the sides. Also turn it over and over (upside down) and see if you can hear any noise inside the valve, if you hear a slight tingling it means a piece of glass has chipped off and could be shorting the pins internally.
  
 If the tube does not work perfectly straight away on start up then its defective.
  
 In either case its not good and if you bought off EBay you should ask for a full refund. If the seller refuses lodge a claim using the EBay system. If you bought it from a shop same. 
  
 I had the same happen last week and I got a full refund.


----------



## dosley01

kmitschiener said:


> Thanks!
> How do you guys clean your pins?
> does the popping damage headphones?


 

 A Mr. Clean Magic Eraser also works great for pin cleaning.


----------



## Xcalibur255

kmitschiener said:


> Thanks!
> How do you guys clean your pins?
> does the popping damage headphones?


 

 Loud pops can indicate a short, and an unsafe tube.


----------



## abvolt

I'm guilty but in only a small way Lol..


----------



## kmitschiener

Strange, both channels have music when playing on my iems. Any idea what's happening?


----------



## isquirrel

kmitschiener said:


> Strange, both channels have music when playing on my iems. Any idea what's happening?


 

 Headphone connector is loose try with different headphones or connectors to isolate the problem


----------



## kmitschiener

But my headphones work perfectly when using a different tube


----------



## r one

I've opportunity to own Fivre 6SN7 gt clear glass-flate ladder plate. How it sounds ? Nearly like other known reference tube : Brimar/Mullard or not ?


----------



## whirlwind

r one said:


> I've opportunity to own Fivre 6SN7 gt clear glass-flate ladder plate. How it sounds ? Nearly like other known reference tube : Brimar/Mullard or not ?


 
 I think gibosi may own this tube.....maybe he will chime in and be able to help you out.


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> I've opportunity to own Fivre 6SN7 gt clear glass-flate ladder plate. How it sounds ? Nearly like other known reference tube : Brimar/Mullard or not ?


 
  
 A 1957 6N7GT with bottom getter on the left and a 1956 6SN7GT with side getter on the right.
  
 The tube with the side getter seems to have a stronger bass, otherwise, both are fairly neutral, balanced and very musical. Where the Fivre really shine is the midrange, silky smooth, a terrific tube.


----------



## r one

Thanks Gibosi ,
 one is NIB black base huge condition perfect stamp on it - marked 211 on the glass you know which model is it ? tested at 11.4 - 12. You know if it is a gt or gta ?
  
 second is new, not nib,  brown base tested at 12 - 12 with classic logo Fivre on the yellow/green stamp. Certain have a bigger logo on a bigger Fivre stamp.
 the two seems to have the same internal structure : plate/getter and Fivre logo as yours.
 what do you think about both versions ?


----------



## gibosi

I hope rosgr63 will see this and comment, as he knows these tubes much better than I. And pictures would be very helpful. Otherwise, it is very difficult to know exactly what you are seeing.
  
 If these tubes have side getters, they are GTA. If they have bottom getters, GT. Sorry I can't be of more help...


----------



## r one

i have pictures, how can i post it here ?


----------



## gibosi

When you click reply, there are a two or three rows of icons on top of the window. Moving your cursor over these icons, find the one that says "Insert Image" (in French I assume.  And then you will get a dialogue box to allow you to select and insert pictures.


----------



## r one

ah ok, it's not the same way in our french forums, that's why i haven't seen, thank you for help.
 so here there are
  
 first : NIB military issue

  and i could own this two others new but not nib. The left tube has better value (12/12) than the tube on the right (9/9)


----------



## gibosi

All three of these have bottom getters, so they are 6SN7GT, likely manufactured in the mid-1950s, and probably all sound about the same. Personally, I always prefer to have more than one, so if the price is right, I think I would go for the two with colorful stickers and brown bases. Or maybe all three! lol


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> All three of these have bottom getters, so they are 6SN7GT, likely manufactured in the mid-1950s, and probably all sound about the same. Personally, I always prefer to have more than one, so if the price is right, I think I would go for the two with colorful stickers and brown bases. Or maybe all three! lol



Looking for some, which you thinks best?


----------



## gibosi

Again, I think the GTA, with side getter, has more bass. So it depends on your preferred sound signature and cans. If you want more bass, I would get the side-getter GTA. If you want more neutral, the bottom-getter GT.


----------



## r one

with my TH900 i prefer a midrange performer. For bass addict i already have ken rad/rca/and tung sol.
 Recently i fall in love when i tried a brimar 6sn7gt-tall black bottle. Do you think this fivre sounds close to it for example ?


----------



## gibosi

Yes, it is much more like a Brimar than a Ken-Rad, very musical with a silky smooth midrange. I dare say if you like the Brimar, you will probably like the Fivre GT.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> Yes, it is much more like a Brimar than a Ken-Rad, very musical with a silky smooth midrange. I dare say if you like the Brimar, you will probably like the Fivre GT.



What's is a fivre gt


----------



## gibosi

Fivre 6SN7GT


----------



## r one

gibosi said:


> Yes, it is much more like a Brimar than a Ken-Rad, very musical with a silky smooth midrange. I dare say if you like the Brimar, you will probably like the Fivre GT.



The nib one is too gorgeous i must buy. and i ll take a second one Brown base with the best values


----------



## 3083joe

Found them thanks!


----------



## r one

And thanks for your help Gibosi


----------



## whirlwind

Dang....you guys have me wanting one!


----------



## r one

Ordered


----------



## Stereolab42

My new favorite tubes -- the Sylvania VT-99s, 1942 edition, in the darkest days of WW2. Laser-precise without being lean. Sorry for buying up most of the eBay stock. 
  
 Apparently they were mass-produced for use in a specific type of miltary amplifier:
  

  
  

  
  
 These "interphones" apparently were used to power radio speakers in WWII bombers (http://aafradio.org/flightdeck/Interphone_systems.html). Pretty cool stuff.


----------



## Badas

^

That is a Tung-Sol pictured above. What do the Sylvania's look like?

By the way cool stuff. I love the history of the tubes. I have some Tung-Sols that the boxes look like they have just been made. Stamped with the date March 1945. It is cool knowing what was happening at that time.


----------



## r one

Same history addiction for me. Tell us how sound this vt 99 it will be appreciated


----------



## Badas

r one said:


> Same history addiction for me. Tell us how sound this vt 99 it will be appreciated




Yes. I will also be very interested. I have never used the Sylvania version. A mate has a pair I could grab and listen to but we both kinda dismissed the Sylvania. We both favor the NU and Tung-Sol.

I also have a set of the RCA flat plates. Similar to the RCA 6SN7 version. I only listened to them for a while and moved onto NU. I remember them as a good tube as well. I should roll them in again.


----------



## Stereolab42

badas said:


> ^
> 
> That is a Tung-Sol pictured above. What do the Sylvania's look like?
> 
> By the way cool stuff. I love the history of the tubes. I have some Tung-Sols that the boxes look like they have just been made. Stamped with the date March 1945. It is cool knowing what was happening at that time.


 
  
 In the picture of the open BC-347-C "interphone", yes, but the box of spare parts pictured above is full of Sylvanias (it was posted by an eBay seller among lots of other photos), so the military was clearly using both manufacturers. I have a bunch of T-S VT-99s that also sound great.
  
 Every time I use a tube from this time period I feel I'm paying my respects to those who won this war for the good guys.


----------



## Badas

^

Yes. I feel the same way. It is a nice feeling.


----------



## musicman59

I have some of the Sylvania VT-99 they sound really nice but to me the Tung-Sol VT-99 are still better but for the price they are an awesome option.


----------



## Badas

musicman59 said:


> I have some of the Sylvania VT-99 they sound really nice but to me the Tung-Sol VT-99 are still better but for the price they are an awesome option.




Is it the one with the T plates?


----------



## 3083joe

@badas
Are the 6c8g about the Same in sound in the tung sol?
Tia


----------



## musicman59

badas said:


> Is it the one with the T plates?


 
 I don't remember.I have to check again. I get confuse with their construction because I have Reytheon, RCA and Sylvania 6F8G in addition to the Tung-Sol.


----------



## MIKELAP

Got a bunch of 6c8g today looks like structure is same in all of them ROGERS, MARCONI , NATIONAL UNION , G.E.


----------



## 3083joe

mikelap said:


> Got a bunch of 6c8g today looks like structure is same in all of them ROGERS, MARCONI , NATIONAL UNION , G.E.



Cool what about tung sol ?


----------



## Oskari

mikelap said:


> Got a bunch of 6c8g today looks like structure is same in all of them ROGERS, MARCONI , NATIONAL UNION , G.E.


 
  
 You are in Canada. Are (some of) those tubes Canadian?


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> @badas
> Are the 6c8g about the Same in sound in the tung sol?
> Tia


 
  
 There is a Tung-Sol round plate 6C8G. I purchased a large number of them. They sound like any other Tung-Sol roundplate.
  

  


mikelap said:


> Got a bunch of 6c8g today looks like structure is same in all of them ROGERS, MARCONI , NATIONAL UNION , G.E.


 
  
 A classic re-badge I think. This is what I have seen in 6C8G.
  
 RCA: NU plates. Closer together. No support structure. Sounds like a NU but slightly leaner. I have and have listened to.

  
 RCA: round plates that are kinda joined. Not the best 6C8G. However better than any 6SN7. I have listened to.

  
 Sylvania: I have seen as the classic re-badge like the first RCA. Also the classic Sylvania T plate like what is used in their 6SN7. Not listened to.


  
 NU: One of the very nicest. NU round plates. Different from the RCA. The plates are spread further apart and it has support rods. Internal construction is exactly the same as my NU 6F8G. I have and have listened to.

  
 Ken-Rad: Same as NU. A classic re-badge. Listened to.
  
 Tung-Sol: Round plates. As in the above picture. Damn I stocked up on these. I have 14 sets. Sounds just like any other Tung-Sol round plate. Very slight difference in construction to the Tung-Sol 6F8G. On the 6C the plates don't protrude above the micra. on the 6F they do. Plates look to be identical tho. The best sounding of all 6C8G's.
  


3083joe said:


> Cool what about tung sol ?


 
  
 As above.


----------



## 3083joe

badas 
These?


----------



## MIKELAP

All the 6C8G have the same halfmoon plates                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                    
                                                    
                                                    
 And also got a few 5aw4                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                          

 and on the way  a pair of  5Z4


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> All the 6C8G have the same halfmoon plates


 
  
 1st one is a RCA that uses the NU plates. I have 27 sets of these. Sound like the NU just slightly leaner.
  
 2nd is the NU. Note the support rods. Plates are ever so slightly spaced further apart that the RCA.
  
 3rd and 4th is the other RCA I was talking about. Not as good as the NU's or the RCA with NU plates. However still nicer than a 6SN7.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> @badas
> These?


 
  
 Yip. Same Aussie buyer I bought mine from.


----------



## 3083joe

Got these too


----------



## Badas

^
  
 1st is the RCA that uses the NU plates. Like I have said. Nice but not as good as the NU. I took a punt on this tube and purchased a bulk 27 sets. It looks very similar in construction to the NU. The plates are the same. Top micra is different. Plates are spaced differently. No support rods. Sound ends up similar. NU has the advantage. RCA is leaner.
  

  
  
  
  
 2nd looks interesting. I haven't seen or tested.
  
 3rd is that a rectifier?
  
 4th the classic 5Z4. Damn I like that tube. One of my favorites.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> ^
> 
> 1st is the RCA that uses the NU plates. Like I have said. Nice but not as good as the NU. I took a punt on this tube and purchased a bulk 27 sets. It looks very similar in construction to the NU. The plates are the same. Top micra is different. Plates are spaced differently. No support rods. Sound ends up similar. NU has the advantage. RCA is leaner.
> 
> ...


Got these too



Yeah curious to try all of them for sure. It's like an addiction tho.  
The 3rd is a NU 5U4G vt-244 rectifier


----------



## Badas

> Yeah curious to try all of them for sure. It's like an addiction tho.
> The 3rd is a NU 5U4G vt-244 rectifier


 
  
 That looks very interesting. Please compare to the Brimar 5Z4G.


----------



## musicman59

Who is a good source for the Tung-Sol 6C8G?


----------



## musicman2006

Has anyone placed a 6SN7 tube in a WA2 or WA3 amp ? Not sure how much of a substitute it can be for a 6080/6AS7 tube. The pin layout is the same. IDK much more than that though.


----------



## 3083joe

musicman59 said:


> Who is a good source for the Tung-Sol 6C8G?



http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=291491747730&globalID=EBAY-US


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=291491747730&globalID=EBAY-US


 

 That's where I purchased mine from. The only source I could find.
  
 There was 3 available a short while ago. Did you buy a set?


----------



## Xcalibur255

badas said:


> I have 27 sets of these.


 
  
 This may be the post that finally convinces me to unsubscribe from this thread.


----------



## Badas

xcalibur255 said:


> This may be the post that finally convinces me to unsubscribe from this thread.


 
 I'm sorry.

 Why? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 What did I do?
  
 I know it sounds like a silly amount. But I purchased in bulk and the unit price was dirt cheap. I also figured if others were curious at the headphone meets I will just throw them a pair for free. I had good intentions.


----------



## MIKELAP

oskari said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Got a bunch of 6c8g today looks like structure is same in all of them ROGERS, MARCONI , NATIONAL UNION , G.E.
> ...


 

 The Marconi tube on it says ¨made for canadian Marconi¨  by whom i dont know ,my supplier lives in Montreal and gets his tubes here does that make them all Canadian ?


----------



## 3083joe

mikelap said:


> The Marconi tube on it says ¨made for canadian Marconi¨  by whom i dont know ,my supplier lives in Montreal and gets his tubes here does that make them all Canadian ?



Don't think it matters. 
Can you get them for anyone else? 
Tia


----------



## 3083joe

mikelap
I believe they are just Canadian company's. 
Rodgers is I know.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> That's where I purchased mine from. The only source I could find.
> 
> There was 3 available a short while ago. Did you buy a set?



I did. Should be 2 sets left


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> The Marconi tube on it says ¨made for canadian Marconi¨  by whom i dont know ,my supplier lives in Montreal and gets his tubes here does that make them all Canadian ?


 
  
 It's a NU.
  
 A bit of a warning on 6C8G. Me and a mate have been playing around with these for a while now. We have never seen so many re-brands. They are everywhere. I think most companies didn't care about 6C and just got others to produce for them. You have to buy on what you see internally. The most comon rebrands is NU and RCA. They actually use the same plates as well. Which makes it confusing. Next is Sylvania.


3083joe said:


> I did. Should be 2 sets left


 
  
 Score. Well done. I love these tubes. All I want to use is these drivers. Let us know what you think.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > The Marconi tube on it says ¨made for canadian Marconi¨  by whom i dont know ,my supplier lives in Montreal and gets his tubes here does that make them all Canadian ?
> ...


 

 Personnally i dont really care for the brand at $8.00 to $10.00 each i just buy them and it does the job for me


----------



## MIKELAP

3083joe said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > The Marconi tube on it says ¨made for canadian Marconi¨  by whom i dont know ,my supplier lives in Montreal and gets his tubes here does that make them all Canadian ?
> ...


 

 Actually i bought all he had


----------



## MIKELAP

3083joe said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Got a bunch of 6c8g today looks like structure is same in all of them ROGERS, MARCONI , NATIONAL UNION , G.E.
> ...


 

 None of those


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> Personnally i dont really care for the brand at $8.00 to $10.00 each i just buy them and it does the job for me


 

 If you paid $8.00 - $10.00 each then you did very well mate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 NU is my second favorite 6C8G and only second by a tiny bit.


----------



## gibosi

Does anyone know where I can find a key to the old Mullard production codes used before 1955, or so? At about that time, Mullard started using the standard Philips codes. For example, I saw an ECC31 with the code EM1 B6J. To those of us who are comfortable with the Philips code, this tells us that it was manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory in 1956. But another ECC31 which appears to be somewhat older, has a very different code, 1029 MAA. And unfortunately, I have no idea how to decipher this code.....
  
 (Caution: The ECC31 has only one cathode, a common cathode, which is shared between both sections, whereas, a 6SN7 has two cathodes, one for each section. And therefore, an ECC31 will not work in a 6SN7 socket without an adapter. Further, I have no idea how it might sound in an amp designed to use 6SN7, and it might not even be worth the trouble....)


----------



## musicman59

3083joe said:


> I did. Should be 2 sets left


 
 None left ... I bought the last set available.


----------



## Badas

musicman59 said:


> None left ... I bought the last set available.


 

 They flew out the door. I knew they would. Price is excellent.
  
 I kept quiet about those tubes until I stocked up. Now I have plenty go for it guys.


----------



## Oskari

mikelap said:


> The Marconi tube on it says ¨made for canadian Marconi¨  by whom i dont know ,my supplier lives in Montreal and gets his tubes here does that make them all Canadian ?


 
  
 Nope. CMC, Rogers and CGE are Canadian brands but apparently the tubes, in this case, are not.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> Does anyone know where I can find a key to the old Mullard production codes used before 1955, or so? At about that time, Mullard started using the standard Philips codes. For example, I saw an ECC31 with the code EM1 B6J. To those of us who are comfortable with the Philips code, this tells us that it was manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory in 1956. But another ECC31 which appears to be somewhat older, has a very different code, 1029 MAA. And unfortunately, I have no idea how to decipher this code.....


 
  
 1029 is the type code, so MAA must be the date code.
  
 There is also another type of code, e.g., 1324 A0. You can read my theory of this code here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/558352/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts/30#post_9020495
  
 Back to MAA. Skylab here seems to apply the 'old' code as described by Blake: http://www.head-fi.org/t/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts/45#post_7708374
  

Philips codes by Blake (again)
  
 You could try and see whether that works.


----------



## SonicTrance

badas said:


> They flew out the door. I knew they would. Price is excellent.
> 
> I kept quiet about those tubes until I stocked up. Now I have plenty go for it guys.


 
 He almost doubled the price now, AU $130 for a pair. Not cool, luckily I got a pair for $70. I haven't got them yet but I guess they sound like the other types of round plate Tung-Sols. I got the 6SL7 BGRP and 6F8G BGRP and they sound very similar, if not the same. Very nice tubes though


----------



## 3083joe

The bay has NU 6f8g 110 a pair. If anyone's looking.


----------



## 3083joe

badas
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271894513615&globalID=EBAY-US


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> 1029 is the type code, so MAA must be the date code.
> 
> There is also another type of code, e.g., 1324 A0. You can read my theory of this code here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/558352/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts/30#post_9020495
> 
> Back to MAA. Skylab here seems to apply the 'old' code as described by Blake: http://www.head-fi.org/t/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts/45#post_7708374


 
  
 Thanks for your reply. While it might be a stretch to assume that a modified version of the old Philips code was also used on Mullards, doing so seems to indicate a date of January, 1951, which seems reasonable. Anyway, for now, I think all I can say for sure is that this tube was manufactured sometime before 1955.
  
 Thanks again.


----------



## Stereolab42

Did Jack really say the 6SL7s/6C8Gs were a drop-in for 6SN7/6F8G on his amps? Comparing the tube data sheets I can't help but be very skeptical since the operating characteristics are so different. How does this affect the load placed on the output tubes?


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> While it might be a stretch to assume that a modified version of the old Philips code was also used on Mullards, …


 
  
 It is such a silly code that it might be a British invention.


----------



## gibosi

stereolab42 said:


> Did Jack really say the 6SL7s/6C8Gs were a drop-in for 6SN7/6F8G on his amps? Comparing the tube data sheets I can't help but be very skeptical since the operating characteristics are so different. How does this affect the load placed on the output tubes?


 
  
 The WA22 was designed to run 6NS7, and for sure, the 6SL7 is not really a perfect drop-in replacement. However, the 6SL7 is not so different that it won't work. And while it does have more gain than a 6SN7, it is not so much that it can overdrive the output tubes. In practice, substituting 6SL7s for 6SN7s is very common (in headphone amps). And similarly, in amps designed around the 6SL7, such as the Little Dot MK 9, it is very common to substitute 6SN7s (with Little Dots blessing).
  
 So there is no harm in rolling these tubes. And in the end, the fact that one's favorite tube might be operating in a less than optimal circuit is of no consequence if it sounds great to your ears.


----------



## 3083joe

Question to all
which do you all think sounds best and why?
Mullard gz30 32, 34, 37
From what I read seems it's a toss up
37 sounds more like what's I'm looking for but wanted to know your opinions
Tia


----------



## gibosi

gibosi said:


> The WA22 was designed to run 6NS7, and for sure, the 6SL7 is not really a perfect drop-in replacement. However, the 6SL7 is not so different that it won't work. And while it does have more gain than a 6SN7, it is not so much that it can overdrive the output tubes. In practice, substituting 6SL7s for 6SN7s is very common (in headphone amps). And similarly, in amps designed around the 6SL7, such as the Little Dot MK 9, it is very common to substitute 6SN7s (with Little Dots blessing).
> 
> So there is no harm in rolling these tubes. And in the end, the fact that one's favorite tube might be operating in a less than optimal circuit is of no consequence if it sounds great to your ears.


 
  
 And I would like to add....
  
 If one is comfortable rolling the 6SL7, then it might well be worth considering a number of tubes that are much more similar to the 6SN7 than the 6SL7 is.
  
 The closest to the 6SN7 are ECC40, 6CG7/6FQ7 and ECC804. Essentially, 6CG7 were simply 6SN7's stuffed into miniature glass bottles, Although there are those who really like the RCA, Sylvania and Tung-Sol, in my opinion, real 6SN7s are better.
  
 However, ECC40s were manufactured by La Radiotechnique, Valvo and a number of other Philips factories as well as Tungsram, and the ECC804 was manufactured by Brimar. And therefore, these offer a different sound, a "European sound" if you will, and may well be worth trying.
  
 Some of my other favorites, 5687, E80CC/6085 and E182CC/7119 are also well worth trying in my opinion. And if you get bored with these, the 6DJ8 tribe, while a bit more different, are still not as different as a 6SL7.
  
 Happy rolling


----------



## Badas

stereolab42 said:


> Did Jack really say the 6SL7s/6C8Gs were a drop-in for 6SN7/6F8G on his amps? Comparing the tube data sheets I can't help but be very skeptical since the operating characteristics are so different. How does this affect the load placed on the output tubes?


 
  
 Correspondence between Jack and myself:
  
Hi Dono,  
6CG8 can be used on the WA22. There is no problem although the heater current is lower than 6F8G/6SN7. 
  
I hope you will get a chance to hear the WA5 and the WA234 Mono. These amp are an ultimate step up from the WA22.
  
Cheers,
 Jack
  


On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 12:55 AM,

 Thanks for making great products. I absolutely love my WA22. I probably have over $100K worth of HT gear in my room and the WA22 is the favorite by a long shot.

 In my quest for NOS tubes I recently moved to a 6F8G type tube. Or so I thought. I purchased a Set of NU 6F8g's and have been using them for over a month. They sound the absolute best to my ears. Well I got a shock when I took a pic of my amp and the camera flash revealed some markings on the tube. It clearly shows that both tubes are not 6F8G but are actually 6C8G. See attached pic.




 I have researched the difference between 6F8G and 6C8G and they are pinned exactly the same, have the same voltage however the 6C8G has 0.3 amps instead of 0.6 amps.

 I did notice a volume increase. Is this because of the amps?

 I have my WA22 set at the 12 O clock position and control volume via remote on my Oppo HA-1 being used as a pre-amp. Is this tube with the extra amps safe to use or should I dis regard?

 I would like to use as they are in expensive. I could pick up a lifetimes supply very easily and for not much $$'s.

 I look forward to your response.

 Dono.


----------



## Stereolab42

gibosi said:


> The WA22 was designed to run 6NS7, and for sure, the 6SL7 is not really a perfect drop-in replacement. However, the 6SL7 is not so different that it won't work. And while it does have more gain than a 6SN7, it is not so much that it can overdrive the output tubes.


 
  
 That is my main worry... if it could decrease the life of the far-more-expensive 300B tubes that it's driving. In Badas' email Jack only addresses the issue of WA22 compatibility directly. If it causes even as much as a 10% decrease in 300B life then that would really eliminate the cost savings over 6F8G/6SN7 equivalents. For WA22 this matters less since WA22 output tubes are so much cheaper.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> I have researched the difference between 6F8G and 6C8G and they are pinned exactly the same, have the same voltage however the 6C8G has 0.3 amps instead of 0.6 amps.
> 
> I did notice a volume increase. Is this because of the amps?


 
  
 The 6SN7 provides a voltage gain of about 20, whereas the 6SL7 provides a voltage gain of about 70, or three and half times. Switching between a tube with a gain of 20 to one with a gain of 70, it is reasonable to think it might overdrive the grid of the output tube. However, per Woos response, and the experience of many, this does not seem to be a problem with 6AS7 based amps. And this is the reason you noticed a volume increase.
  
 The heater circuit is dedicated solely to heating the cathodes. It is completely different and separate from the circuit that runs electrons through the cathode, grid and plate. Accordingly, the heater current draw has no relationship to the gain of the tube. Generally speaking you can use any tube which draws 0.6 amps of heater current, or less, with no problem.


----------



## gibosi

stereolab42 said:


> That is my main worry... if it could decrease the life of the far-more-expensive 300B tubes that it's driving. In Badas' email Jack only addresses the issue of WA22 compatibility directly. If it causes even as much as a 10% decrease in 300B life then that would really eliminate the cost savings over 6F8G/6SN7 equivalents. For WA22 this matters less since WA22 output tubes are so much cheaper.


 
  
 While many swap 6SL7s for 6SN7s in 6AS7 based amps, a 300B amp is very different animal. Like you, I would be very leery of rolling anything other than a 6SN7. But for any who are interested, sending a letter to Woo first would be my recommendation.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Wouldn't the volume control sort all that out? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 More gain from the 6C8G into the 300B means more volume into the headphone.
  
 Turn down the volume so the 300B is using less power which equals the same power as using a 6F8G.
  
 Or do I have this all completely wrong?


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Wouldn't the volume control sort all that out?
> 
> ...



Sounds right but I don't know for sure.


----------



## gibosi

I would agree...  Many feel that a 6SN7 doesn't have enough gain to properly drive a 300B, so perhaps rolling in a 6SL7 might be a good thing. But as Stereolab42 points out, 300B tubes are expensive, especially the good ones, so better safe than sorry.... And since he has a Woo, it would be best to check with them first.


----------



## Badas

I wish I could find my second email.
  
 I basically asked if the 6C8G would put stress on the amp/caps/other tubes.
  
 Jacks response was short and sweet. He basically said not at all and go ahead and use.
  
 However I can't find the email. Stupid me. Plus we are talking WA22. Not WA5.


----------



## Skylab

In spite of the 6SL7 having more gain than a 6SN7, the 6SL7 draws half the heater current of a 6SN7. So in terms of using a 6SL7 where the amp calls for a 6SN7, there isn't a danger of damage. Note that the reverse is NOT true...if the amp calls for a 6SL7, which draws 300 mA of heater current from the power transformer, and you insert a 6SN7, which draws 600 mA, then you could have an issue unless you know for sure the amp has the headroom to supply the extra current. 

None of the above speaks to how the different tubes will actually perform in the circuit, of course.


----------



## r one

Hi guys. Fivre tubes are arrived. They sound amazing. it's been a while that i had not a little slap . very very happy with them 

Very good tubes highly recommanded


----------



## jamato8

skylab said:


> In spite of the 6SL7 having more gain than a 6SN7, the 6SL7 draws half the heater current of a 6SN7. So in terms of using a 6SL7 where the amp calls for a 6SN7, there isn't a danger of damage. Note that the reverse is NOT true...if the amp calls for a 6SL7, which draws 300 mA of heater current from the power transformer, and you insert a 6SN7, which draws 600 mA, then you could have an issue unless you know for sure the amp has the headroom to supply the extra current.
> 
> None of the above speaks to how the different tubes will actually perform in the circuit, of course.


 

 Cary Audio had an amp that could take both but you had to change the bias resistor and they incorporated a switch for that. I have done the same thing but the sound is quite a bit different and a circuit built around one or the other tube doesn't always sound that good when they are changed as one is a voltage tube, the other a current.


----------



## SonicTrance

jamato8 said:


> Cary Audio had an amp that could take both but you had to change the bias resistor and they incorporated a switch for that. I have done the same thing but the sound is quite a bit different and a circuit built around one or the other tube doesn't always sound that good when they are changed as one is a voltage tube, the other a current.


 
 I have a Little Dot MK6. It's designed for 6SL7's but work just as good with 6SN7's. It has auto-bias.


----------



## jamato8

sonictrance said:


> I have a Little Dot MK6. It's designed for 6SL7's but work just as good with 6SN7's. It has auto-bias.


 

 What position are the tubes?


----------



## SonicTrance

jamato8 said:


> What position are the tubes?


 
 Driver tubes.


----------



## jamato8

sonictrance said:


> Driver tubes.


 

 That is great. Some don't like the 6SL7, with is more or less a type of 12AX7 in what it does. I have a huge number of 6SL7 types from 5691's, 6SU7 black glass (highly matched 6SL7) and on. I have always enjoyed the tube.


----------



## SonicTrance

jamato8 said:


> That is great. Some don't like the 6SL7, with is more or less a type of 12AX7 in what it does. I have a huge number of 6SL7 types from 5691's, 6SU7 black glass (highly matched 6SL7) and on. I have always enjoyed the tube.


 
 I don't have a huge number of 6SL7's, yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But I do like the ones I have, especially TS BGRP. I think that tube sounds just like it's bigger brother, the 6F8G version though (I don't have the 6SN7 version), at least with my gear, ears and so on...


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> Hi guys. Fivre tubes are arrived. They sound amazing. it's been a while that i had not a little slap
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I thought you might like them. The Fivre 6SNGT are terrific tubes, under-appreciated and often overlooked.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Badas

sonictrance said:


> I have a Little Dot MK6. It's designed for 6SL7's but work just as good with 6SN7's. It has auto-bias.




Interesting. My WA22 is auto-bias. Designed for 6SN7. Also driver. I have the NU 6F8G and 6C8G and they sound absolutely identical. You would not know there was a difference unless you looked at the label or heard the gain.


----------



## abvolt

Yeah I don't even use any of my 6sn7's since *Badas* mentioned how nice the 6c8g's & 6f8g's are, there all I use now..


----------



## 3083joe

abvolt said:


> Yeah I don't even use any of my 6sn7's since *Badas* mentioned how nice the 6c8g's & 6f8g's are, there all I use now..



NU 6sn7s with 596 rectifier is butter. So smooth and detailed.


----------



## abvolt

I've never used any NU 6sn7's guess I'd better take a look at a pair..


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> NU 6sn7s with 596 rectifier is butter. So smooth and detailed.


 
  
 The black ones? Or the grey ones?


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> The black ones? Or the grey ones?



I have black but I'm sure both are nice


----------



## jamato8

I have a bunch of 6J5's in metal base, European types and so on in NOS. I think I will make an adapter to use what is essentially a single section 6SN7, so I will use 2 6J5's or I may just buy the adapter.  It would be interesting to compare the same type to the 6SN7 or an overall impression .


----------



## r one

After a week of listening with this Fivre 6sn7gt i would like to tell you how it is an awesome pleasure. It gives all that my TH900 wants. impact, clarity, addictive midrange. for me this italian tube is the TS rps killer


----------



## 3083joe

r one said:


> After a week of listening with this Fivre 6sn7gt i would like to tell you how it is an awesome pleasure. It gives all that my TH900 wants. impact, clarity, addictive midrange. for me this italian tube is the TS rps killer



That's very interesting, might have to pick up a pair to try, can you post a picture of them. Because there's several different styles


----------



## r one

Both are 50's made and have the same structure and sound exactly the same. 
First one is black base, D bottom getter and flate stagerred plates. Spacer on top are plastic made 


And the second is brown base with real mica made on top. Same internal structure


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> Both are 50's made and have the same structure and sound exactly the same.
> First one is black base, D bottom getter and flate stagerred plates. Spacer on top are plastic made


 
  
 A reminder...  There is a bottom getter version, 6SN7GT, and a side getter version, 6SN7GTA. r one has the bottom getter version. The side getter is similar, but with a bit more bass.


----------



## r one

And i search after a gta type ☺


----------



## Mechans1

That's great but where are we going to find them? is there any source or is it the old find and pounce routine.  With that approach there are serious drawbacks. 
 for instance  I have bought Tung Sol RPs which tested well but didn't sound good.  The same can happen to any tube.  The opposite situation I should tell you is rare, a tube of mediocre materials and engineering, rarely sound great beyond and rise above what they fundamentally are. Yes good but never great IMO.
 So where do I  get NIB NOS FIVRE 6SN7 GTs?


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> That's great but where are we going to find them? is there any source or is it the old find and pounce routine...


 
  
 I purchased mine on eBay from this vendor:
  
 http://stores.ebay.com/Giannoni-Silvano-Surplus?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
  
 European tubes are rather rare in the US and as a result can be very difficult to find and are often expensive. But perhaps those head-fiers who live in Europe have knowledge of and access to reputable sources other than eBay for European tubes?


----------



## r one

it was a private sell for me. This 2 tubes were the latest he had. 1 nib (the black base) and 1 new without original box (the brown base).


----------



## 3083joe

r one said:


> it was a private sell for me. This 2 tubes were the latest he had. 1 nib (the black base) and 1 new without original box (the brown base).


 

 Aren't the 6sl7s the same?


----------



## r one

difficult to say, seems to be round plate no ?


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Aren't the 6sl7s the same?


 
  
 The 6SL7 has a gain of 70 while the 6SN7 has a gain of 20, three and half times more. These are clearly different tubes designed for different purposes. Often, the plates and other visible internal structures appear to be almost identical in 6SN7 and 6SL7 manufactured by the same company, but again, they are not the same. That said, many headphone amps seem to be able to handle both with no problems.


----------



## jamato8

gibosi said:


> The 6SL7 has a gain of 70 while the 6SN7 has a gain of 20, three and half times more. These are clearly different tubes designed for different purposes. Often, the plates and other visible internal structures appear to be almost identical in 6SN7 and 6SL7 manufactured by the same company, but again, they are not the same. That said, many headphone amps seem to be able to handle both with no problems.


 

 Tubes don't have gain, they have a mu and when placed in a circuit exhibit a gain, depending upon the circuit.


----------



## Shaffer

jamato8 said:


> Tubes don't have gain, they have a mu and when placed in a circuit exhibit a gain, depending upon the circuit.




With this in mind, would a 6SL7 have 3 times the gain of a 6SN7, assuming the circuit is identical?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> With this in mind, would a 6SL7 have 3 times the gain of a 6SN7, assuming the circuit is identical?


 
  
 I'll let others worry about which is the best term to use... The gain, mu, amplification factor or what-have-you for a 6SL7, configured as a Class A amplifier, is 70, whereas, the corresponding value for a 6SN7 is 20, or three and one half times more. In a 6SN7/6AS7 OTL, such as the Elise, it is not clear to me how substituting the 6SL7 will affect the operation of the 6AS7. For comparison purposes, the C3g that some are using in the Elise has a value of about 40, so again, 70 is quite high.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> With this in mind, would a 6SL7 have 3 times the gain of a 6SN7, assuming the circuit is identical?




I use a 6SL7 (actually the 6C8g*) in a 6SN7 circuit.

It is not 3 times more. It is a bit more. With 6SN7 an average volume is usually the 1 O clock posistion. With 6SL7 it about 11 O clock.

*6C87 is the same as the 6SL7 but requires a heater wire to go to the top.


----------



## jamato8

badas said:


> I use a 6SL7 (actually the 6C8g*) in a 6SN7 circuit.
> 
> It is not 3 times more. It is a bit more. With 6SN7 an average volume is usually the 1 O clock posistion. With 6SL7 it about 11 O clock.
> 
> *6C87 is the same as the 6SL7 but requires a heater wire to go to the top.


 
 That is a grid cap.


----------



## Badas

jamato8 said:


> That is a grid cap.




 That is correct. I was trying to explain it in a lame way.


----------



## r one

very beautiful tubes setup


----------



## gibosi

Quote: 





badas said:


> I use a 6SL7 (actually the 6C8g*) in a 6SN7 circuit.
> 
> It is not 3 times more. It is a bit more. With 6SN7 an average volume is usually the 1 O clock posistion. With 6SL7 it about 11 O clock.


 
  
 You are talking about the gain of the entire amp indicated by the position of the volume knob. And I would agree. Substituting a 6SL7 for a 6SN7 does not increase the gain of the entire amp by a factor of 3.5.
  
 However, substituting a tube with a mu of 70 into a circuit designed for a tube with a mu of 20 is a different matter. Mu is defined as a measurement of AC voltage gain, or more precisely, the partial derivative of the plate voltage with respect to the grid voltage. So my concern is what happens when the significantly larger plate voltage of the 6SL7 appears on the grid of the 6AS7? My understanding of these matters is very limited and I simply do not know. And since every amp is different, some 6SN7/6AS7 amps may handle 6SL7s better than others. Again, I simply do not know....
  
 I have a few 6SL7 and I should probably try them. But my feeling is there are tons of other tubes that are much more compatible with a circuit designed for the 6SN7, and rather than using a tube that I believe is significantly different, I prefer to use tubes that are much more similar. But then, this is just my feeling....
  
 Recently, I have been running a 1948 ECC40 manufactured in Hamburg, Germany. The ECC40 has a mu of 32 and was specifically designed as miniature all-glass replacement for the 6SN7. All that is necessary is a simple pin-adapter. A very nice tube.


----------



## whirlwind

^ Very nice, gibosi ^


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Your amp has a capacitor blocking the DC pate voltage on the 6SN7 from the grid of the 6AS7.
 The voltage will go up using a 6SL7/6C8 as it will draw less current through the plate resistor.
 There is no problem trying the 6SL7/6C8 in your amp. I have no idea how it will sound though.
 Some amps using the 6AS7 as only a cathode follower direct coupled to the 6SN7 plate  using a 6SL7
 will change the grid voltage and current in the 6AS7.


----------



## musicman59

badas said:


> I use a 6SL7 (actually the 6C8g*) in a 6SN7 circuit.
> 
> It is not 3 times more. It is a bit more. With 6SN7 an average volume is usually the 1 O clock posistion. With 6SL7 it about 11 O clock.
> 
> *6C87 is the same as the 6SL7 but requires a heater wire to go to the top.


 
 In my amp (WA5-LE) the volume actually goes down (I need to raise volume to get the same sound level) when using the 6SL7 instead of the 6SN7.


----------



## Badas

musicman59 said:


> In my amp (WA5-LE) the volume actually goes down (I need to raise volume to get the same sound level) when using the 6SL7 instead of the 6SN7.




I was wondering about that when you posted last week. Very weird. Obviously the WA5-LE 6SN7 circuit is different to other Woo designed amps. I know on the WA6, WA22 and the WA5 you get a volume gain. All I could think of and I'm no expert is that the 6SL7 tube is a double triode. Maybe one triode is more powerful than the other. On some amps it is wired to use the stronger triode. Then on your WA5-LE it is wired the other way round. Just a complete half assed guess.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> I was wondering about that when you posted last week. Very weird. Obviously the WA5-LE 6SN7 circuit is different to other Woo designed amps. I know on the WA6, WA22 and the WA5 you get a volume gain. All I could think of and I'm no expert is that the 6SL7 tube is a double triode. Maybe one triode is more powerful than the other. On some amps it is wired to use the stronger triode. Then on your WA5-LE it is wired the other way round. Just a complete half assed guess.


 
  
 Both the 6SN7 and 6SL7 are double triodes. And both have identical sections. Again, the major difference is the gain/mu/amplification factor.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> Both the 6SN7 and 6SL7 are double triodes. And both have identical sections. Again, the major difference is the gain/mu/amplification factor.




Cool. Thanks for that.


----------



## MIKELAP

Got a pair of RCA 6C8G tubes with date code Y3E as far as i know first letter is MONTH second is YEAR  and third letter means OEM maybe .  it might be a 1941 or 1943 tube as for the month i have no idea .Any ideas . Thanks.


----------



## Stereolab42

1936 Z 1937 U 1938 T 1939 X 1940 R 1941 Y 1942 S 1943 K 1944 H 1945 V
  
 (I am still paying good money for ZUTX RCA 6F8Gs or rectifiers, if anyone has them for sale.)


----------



## MIKELAP

stereolab42 said:


> 1936 Z 1937 U 1938 T 1939 X 1940 R 1941 Y 1942 S 1943 K 1944 H 1945 V
> 
> (I am still paying good money for ZUTX RCA 6F8Gs or rectifiers, if anyone has them for sale.)


 

 1941. Thanks, .They say  A thru L for month  any idea about the Y.  i gather you got infos here     http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf


----------



## Oskari

mikelap said:


> 1941. Thanks, .They say  A thru L for month  any idea about the Y.  i gather you got infos here     http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf


 
  
 According to that document, Y3E is a shipping date code where Y = 1941, 3 = May–June, and E = OEM.


----------



## Mechans1

gibosi said:


> I purchased mine on eBay from this vendor:
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com/Giannoni-Silvano-Surplus?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
> 
> European tubes are rather rare in the US and as a result can be very difficult to find and are often expensive. But perhaps those head-fiers who live in Europe have knowledge of and access to reputable sources other than eBay for European tubes?


 

 Thank you, he had one a Fivre  with original l but tattered  Italian 6SN7WGT, for approx. $55 + about  $14 for shipping.  The price isn't terribly prohibitive but it isn't cheap pushing $70.  My main reservation is that  I think it looks like a tired tube.  It tests well for the time being so I will think on it.  Thanks again.
 I have a quad of Marconi (Italy) 6SN7GT which are nice but came to me well used.  The sound wasn't anything better than pleasant and have styed with dozens of my 6Sn7s to keep them company.


----------



## Synthax

Dear 6sn7/6f8g fans,
 I've received parcel with 6f8g's RCA, National Union, TS RP & FP.
  
 What I can say for now - I do prefere most TS RP. There is to me slight difference between RP vs FP. RP sounds more linear, more balanced than FP. RCA are very smooth but not enough 'dynamite' in sound like TS's. NU is OK, neutral and nice bot not as powerfull in sound as TS RP.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Exactly what I found. I agree.
  
 Beautiful amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 What is it?


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi all, I'm hoping that somebody can please recommend a 6SN7 tube that sounds more like a solid-state amp.
  
 I have a Project Ember 2 tube amp which accepts 6SN7 tubes with it's adapter. The smaller stock tubes it uses, from what I can tell don't output as refined a sound as the larger tubes like 6SN7 - and I've heard multiple reviews professing that the even larger 7193 tubes give an even better sound than the 6SN7's, but I think there are only 3 models of those.
  
 Anyway I was pretty blown away with the sound of the Sylvania 6SN7GTB (yellow print, silver top tube) with it's vivid soundstage, punchyness, micro-detail and even FR - up until I played some lossy instead of lossless recordings. Now it gave me a weird sort of listener's fatigue from something hard to describe: a little too rich & harmonic / 3D-ish sound. So I'm hoping somebody can recommend another 6SN7 tube that's somewhat more solid-state like, or perhaps a bit more sterile / dry (yet retaining that great detail, FR, etc.). Thanks!


----------



## Stereolab42

decentlevi said:


> Anyway I was pretty blown away with the sound of the Sylvania 6SN7GTB (yellow print, silver top tube) with it's vivid soundstage, punchyness, micro-detail and even FR - up until I played some lossy instead of lossless recordings. Now it gave me a weird sort of listener's fatigue from something hard to describe: a little too rich & harmonic / 3D-ish sound. So I'm hoping somebody can recommend another 6SN7 tube that's somewhat more solid-state like, or perhaps a bit more sterile / dry (yet retaining that great detail, FR, etc.). Thanks!


 
  
 The brown-base Sylvanias and the WW2 Sylvania 6F8Gs are very detailed without being fatiguing. (It seems you're describing a black-base Sylvania?)


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks for responding. Yes it's a black base Sylvania. Do you know any specific models of the brown base ones you're referring to, and possibly any place to buy either of those two? (also are these 6SN7?)


----------



## Shaffer

synthax said:


>




Is that a Feliks Audio amp?

Edit: Just saw it in the sig. Quite a few of us use the Feliks Elise, myself included. Have you had your amp long?


----------



## Stereolab42

decentlevi said:


> Thanks for responding. Yes it's a black base Sylvania. Do you know any specific models of the brown base ones you're referring to, and possibly any place to buy either of those two? (also are these 6SN7?)


 
  
 Yes, 6SN7. You will generally find brown-base Sylvania 6SN7WGTs and Sylvania 6SN7WGTAs, made in the 50s and 60s (I don't think 70s). Some swear there is a huge difference between the As and not-As but they all sound similar to me. Found most of mine on eBay, try to get them NIB, like this:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7WGTA-SYLVANIA-JAN-CHS-BROWN-BASE-NOS-/201349670577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee16026b1


----------



## Synthax

shaffer said:


> Is that a Feliks Audio amp?
> 
> Edit: Just saw it in the sig. Quite a few of us use the Feliks Elise, myself included. Have you had your amp long?


 

 I did have Feliks Audio Espressivo for about 2 years - and still keep it. But finally I decided to merge my stereo amp with headphone output. I know about Elise (OTL), and I'm sure this black beauty sounds very good. But 2a3 with output transformers (for speakers and headphones) is the way I wanted to go. This Arios 2a3 has also remote control and preamp output for my open baffle active bass section. So it's a real 'Nimitz' , with all in one  Sound is fantastic, the only small issue it the little hum with, lets say <100 ohm headphones. But with speakers it is dead quiet.


----------



## Mechans1

stereolab42 said:


> Yes, 6SN7. You will generally find brown-base Sylvania 6SN7WGTs and Sylvania 6SN7WGTAs, made in the 50s and 60s (I don't think 70s). Some swear there is a huge difference between the As and not-As but they all sound similar to me. Found most of mine on eBay, try to get them NIB, like this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7WGTA-SYLVANIA-JAN-CHS-BROWN-BASE-NOS-/201349670577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee16026b1


 

 I would buy a pair of bottom getter Sylvania GT  circa WWII to mid 1950s.  These are often sold as Bad Boys but true Bad Boys have special attributes and slightly different construction to the naked eye.  Just to be clear you don't need Bad Boys the regular GTs bottom getter is the tube you might want. 
 If you are really serious about flattening the sound stage, why not be cheap and try current production.  The best of those are probably the re-issue Tung Sol,    (*no not *black glass round plate).  The tubes I like least and never use are current production Electro-harmonix and the standard issue Shuguang.  I warn you the tone and timbre will suffer .There are very good used and New old stock to choose from so I would try the current production but still look for the old stock. .   Another NOS type you might want to try is RCA, the early grey glass is very popular .   Fortunately there are many to choose from I will suggest a couple more and let you decide,  Hytron/CBS Hytron and NU= national Union black glass, other might argue for grey but I think it too polite for what you seem to want. Good Luck and happy hunting.


----------



## Skylab

stereolab42 said:


> Yes, 6SN7. You will generally find brown-base Sylvania 6SN7WGTs and Sylvania 6SN7WGTAs, made in the 50s and 60s (I don't think 70s). Some swear there is a huge difference between the As and not-As but they all sound similar to me. Found most of mine on eBay, try to get them NIB, like this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7WGTA-SYLVANIA-JAN-CHS-BROWN-BASE-NOS-/201349670577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee16026b1




This is an excellent, excellent tube, IMHO one of the very best 6SN7 types. At least very good at everything, outstanding in terms of balance, clear as a bell, but never harsh. Not overly romantic. Maybe the best bargain in NOS tubes. I use them exclusively in my Cary SLP-05, where I actually prefer them over the TS BGRP.


----------



## Solrighal

I have a National Union 6SN7GT Black Glass that would probably fit the bill. It doesn't sound like much of anything to be honest & it's relatively neutral. I only keep my one as a back-up in case the worst should happen.


----------



## Mechans1

I understand and appreciate your opinion on the Sylvania WGTA, but think the real sleeper/giant killer is the WGT no A.  They are different.  They both have speed and accuracy as their strong suites but the WGT has better tone and is a richer sounding tube of course IMHO.  The WGTA will work out in systems that are heavy and thick sounding to begin with.  All Hi Fi is about system synergy so you can't usually talk about how a tube will work out for someone in isolation. Never the less I still like the WGT better than the WGTA for most applications.  BTW I really love the Cary Preamp, it must be fun rolling all those 6SN7s!


----------



## 3083joe

stereolab42 said:


> The brown-base Sylvanias and the WW2 Sylvania 6F8Gs are very detailed without being fatiguing. (It seems you're describing a black-base Sylvania?)


 

 Yeah Black base Sylvania are not so good!


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Yeah Black base Sylvania are not so good!


 
  
 It depends.... Sylvania manufactured black base 6SN7s continuously for something like 30 years. In my opinion, those manufactured in the 1940s and into the early 1950s are the best. And my personal favorite is the small bottle 6SN7W, manufactured in the mid-1940s.


----------



## Synthax

Guys,
 I have a dilemma, all tubes are great and better sounding than my current production TS 6sn7:
  
 National Union sounds nice, powerfull but this is quite a noise tube in my setup, some cranches, ticks and so on.
 RCA sounds sweet, bo too boring for me. To lean. Nice and gentle but not as involving
 TS round plates sounds fast, powerful, very energetic. Very clear and clean sound (will it not tire me as times goes?)
 TS flat plates: a bit (really a bit) too bright to me. Close to round plates but slighty different.
  
 Which one is best all rounder? Which to keep ?


----------



## JohnBal

synthax said:


> Guys,
> I have a dilemma, all tubes are great and better sounding than my current production TS 6sn7:
> 
> National Union sounds nice, powerfull but this is quite a noise tube in my setup, some cranches, ticks and so on.
> ...


 
 As always, keep what sounds best to you in your system. Enjoy the fun.


----------



## musicman59

synthax said:


> I did have Feliks Audio Espressivo for about 2 years - and still keep it. But finally I decided to merge my stereo amp with headphone output. I know about Elise (OTL), and I'm sure this black beauty sounds very good. But 2a3 with output transformers (for speakers and headphones) is the way I wanted to go. This Arios 2a3 has also remote control and preamp output for my open baffle active bass section. So it's a real 'Nimitz' , with all in one  Sound is fantastic, the only small issue it the little hum with, lets say <100 ohm headphones. But with speakers it is dead quiet.


 
 I can not find this Arios 2a3 anywhere. Do you have a link?


----------



## MIKELAP

synthax said:


> Guys,
> I have a dilemma, all tubes are great and better sounding than my current production TS 6sn7:
> 
> National Union sounds nice, powerfull but this is quite a noise tube in my setup, some cranches, ticks and so on.
> ...


 
 Not complicated you keep em all lol collecting tubes is half the fun .


----------



## Synthax

musicman59 said:


> I can not find this Arios 2a3 anywhere. Do you have a link?


 

 In the middle of the ENGLISH version of page:
 http://www.feliksaudio.pl
  
 I'd like to keep them all tubes but too $ for now. Probably TS RP will stay.


----------



## musicman59

synthax said:


> In the middle of the ENGLISH version of page:
> http://www.feliksaudio.pl
> 
> I'd like to keep them all tubes but too $ for now. Probably TS RP will stay.


 
 Thanks for the link. Did you special ordered your because I don't see a headphones output on the one in the website.


----------



## DecentLevi

solrighal said:


> I have a National Union 6SN7GT Black Glass that would probably fit the bill. It doesn't sound like much of anything to be honest & it's relatively neutral. I only keep my one as a back-up in case the worst should happen.


 
 Did you mean that this tube sounds fairly clean / solid-state like instead of rich with harmonic distortion?
  


mechans1 said:


> I understand and appreciate your opinion on the Sylvania WGTA, but think the real sleeper/giant killer is the WGT no A.  They are different.  They both have speed and accuracy as their strong suites but the WGT has better tone and is a richer sounding tube of course IMHO.  The WGTA will work out in systems that are heavy and thick sounding to begin with.  All Hi Fi is about system synergy so you can't usually talk about how a tube will work out for someone in isolation. Never the less I still like the WGT better than the WGTA for most applications.  BTW I really love the Cary Preamp, it must be fun rolling all those 6SN7s!


 
 So if you say the WGT is richer sounding and you like it better, then would you say I may like the WGTA better since I'm looking for more of a dry/clean sound?
  
  Thanks guys


----------



## Mechans1

decentlevi said:


> Did you mean that this tube sounds fairly clean / solid-state like instead of rich with harmonic distortion?
> 
> So if you say the WGT is richer sounding and you like it better, then would you say I may like the WGTA better since I'm looking for more of a dry/clean sound?
> 
> Thanks guys


 

 I suggest the Sylvania WGT no A because it simply sounds better.  Sometimes it's difficult to describe what those differences are, but if you like the quick clean accuracy of the WGTA you will likely find the WGT does those all  things it does but is better at bringing out details, has better tonal balance, and is fuller all around. 
 The black glass NU is what you have said it is a seemingly neutral tube that doesn't do anything poorly or make unpleasant sound.  I don't like to use the word neutral because it means different things to different people.  That said I still find the NU to be neutral to my ears/mind and does its job without becoming an issue and calling attention to itself in a negative way.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks I'll consider about the non-A too. 
  
 I just ordered a Tung Sol 6SN7 WGTA because it looked the same inside & out as the Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA of the same model and was cheaper. Would I be missing anything by not going for the Sylvania labeled one?


----------



## Solrighal

decentlevi said:


> Did you mean that this tube sounds fairly clean / solid-state like instead of rich with harmonic distortion?


 
  
 It sounds the least valve-like of all the valves I've heard (not many) so yes, I guess that means it exhibits the least distortion/harmonics.
  
 I honestly don't understand why anyone would want a valve amp to sound like a SS amp. The Project Polaris does that job better imo.


----------



## Mechans1

decentlevi said:


> Thanks I'll consider about the non-A too.
> 
> I just ordered a Tung Sol 6SN7 WGTA because it looked the same inside & out as the Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA of the same model and was cheaper. Would I be missing anything by not going for the Sylvania labeled one?


 

 If the factory code on the tube base started with 322,  it was indeed made by Tung Sol.  If the code begins with 312 then it is in fact a Sylvania made tube labeled as a Tung Sol, obviously you would  not lose out on anything in that event.  I do recall however that Tung Sol made a WGTA, but I might be remembering incorrectly.  What does a Sylvania 6SN7WGTA cost these days? I don't think they are overly expensive, the WGT that I suggested is getting scarce and I know they cost $50+ if really NOS testing appearing.


----------



## Mechans1

synthax said:


> Guys,
> I have a dilemma, all tubes are great and better sounding than my current production TS 6sn7:
> 
> National Union sounds nice, powerfull but this is quite a noise tube in my setup, some cranches, ticks and so on.
> ...


 

 Iam wondering why you keep only one?  I have way too many and should get rid of some (20-30) but a handful what 5-6 tubes, is that really a burden?  It is kind of fun rolling them once in a while,  I really  do that.  There doesn't need to be a single "best" there can be many really excellent tubes.  If I were you I would keep most of what you have, get rid of ones you don't  like at all,  and use those dollars to buy a couple of new one to try.  There are several variants of tubes from one company.  Take RCA which you tried one of.  There are graphite shaded glass , grey gl;ass, clear of course, side getter,  Early GT, late GT, GTA,GTB, VT231 (CRC) the red base 5692 and so on,  etc. etc.  That is only one brand.  In truth good sound is easily attained without going crazy tube rolling, but I find it to be a lot of fun and as you have noted you really can tweak your sound. However  If you don't want to do as an ongoing endeavor, that's understandable


----------



## dminches

What is the going price for a pair of NOS Tung Sol 6SN7s, BGRPs?  I have several pair that I am going to sell to fund the purchase of some other overpriced tubes.


----------



## 3083joe

johnbal said:


> As always, keep what sounds best to you in your system. Enjoy the fun.



ReAlly like the TS 6f8g but not sure if they are applicable to your amp


----------



## 3083joe

dminches said:


> What is the going price for a pair of NOS Tung Sol 6SN7s, BGRPs?  I have several pair that I am going to sell to fund the purchase of some other overpriced tubes.



170ish for singles but 400-800 paired is what's they are going for on eBay. 
Trying to get a set but can't pay that price. 200-300 sounds more fair but most will not sell for that.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> It depends.... Sylvania manufactured black base 6SN7s continuously for something like 30 years. In my opinion, those manufactured in the 1940s and into the early 1950s are the best. And my personal favorite is the small bottle 6SN7W, manufactured in the mid-1940s.



Is there a yr stamp I should look for?
Tia


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Is there a yr stamp I should look for?


 
  
 Regarding the 6SN7W, to the best of my knowledge, these were manufactured only in the mid-1940s. If the listing includes a picture of the top of the tube, you will see 6SN7W etched within a hexagon, and below, there will be a letter and a number, for example, C5. C = the third month, March, and 5 = 1945.
  
 You are looking for a short, heavily chromed bottle with black T-plates, "umbrella spoke" metal spacers extending from the top mica to the glass, and one free-standing support rod. Below, on the left is a 6SN7W. On the right is a 1953 "Chrome Dome" 6SN7GTA. (312 = Sylvania and 313 = 1953, 13th week.) It has similar black T-plates, but no support rod or metal spacers. The 6SN7GTA "Chrome Dome" is also a very good sounding tube, but to my ears, the 6SN7W is just a tad bit warmer in the midrange.


----------



## gibosi

dminches said:


> What is the going price for a pair of NOS Tung Sol 6SN7s, BGRPs?  I have several pair that I am going to sell to fund the purchase of some other overpriced tubes.


 
  
 Searching sold listings for Tung Sol 6SN7 on eBay:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=6sn7%20tung%20sol&LH_PrefLoc=2&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
  
 I see two pairs, one sold for $224 and the other for $550. And I see 8 singles, selling anywhere from $41 to $240, for an average price of $131. I did not check to see which were NOS and that may well explain the wide disparity in price.


----------



## musicman59

There are some in ebay way overpriced. IMO the fair price should be somewhere around $300-$350 for the pair.


----------



## isquirrel

dminches said:


> What is the going price for a pair of NOS Tung Sol 6SN7s, BGRPs?  I have several pair that I am going to sell to fund the purchase of some other overpriced tubes.


 

 I can help you, can you post photos if possible? Depends a lot on condition, how they test, how many hours of use, oval or round mica's, ion condition, do you have the original boxes?


----------



## isquirrel

I have 14 pairs, the average price I paid was $600 AUS about US$500 from a wide variety of sources for new, with boxes, oval mica's, test results for each tube matched pairs   in very condition (clean pins, no noise from inside the tube) and importantly no microphonic as these tubes are prone to it.


----------



## DecentLevi

Is there anything otherworldly special about the Tung Sol 6SN7 BGRPs that would justify $500 / pair? I got a wide assortment of decent condition 6SN7 tubes for an average of about $30 each.


----------



## Neogeo333

You can get the 12sn7 and 6f8g version for lot cheaper.  Its a fairly sought after tubes with very neutral sound.  I prefer the round micas and 6f8g version.


----------



## isquirrel

decentlevi said:


> Is there anything otherworldly special about the Tung Sol 6SN7 BGRPs that would justify $500 / pair? I got a wide assortment of decent quality 6SN7 tubes for an average of about $20 each.


 

 Some people would say they are the best 6SN7 on the planet. The scarcity of them also keeps the prices high. That and the fact that you can buy current production 300B & 274B's which are arguably as good as the original whereas with 6SN7 there no current production tube as good as the various NOS ones. Hopefully that situation will be rectified soon. Of course its crazy to spend that kind of $ unless the rest of your setup is of a standard to warrant it. The majority of these tubes make their way into the high end 2 channel audio world where as far as pricing is concerned literally anything goes. Genuine vintage WE 300B's pairs are currently on EBay for up to US $15,000. So with high end audio there is no point in trying to rationalise prices. The average person would think we are all insane.
  
 No you don't need to spend much $ to get decent tubes.


----------



## dminches

isquirrel said:


> Some people would say they are the best 6SN7 on the planet. The scarcity of them also keeps the prices high. That and the fact that you can buy current production 300B & 274B's which are arguably as good as the original whereas with 6SN7 there no current production tube as good as the various NOS ones. Hopefully that situation will be rectified soon. Of course its crazy to spend that kind of $ unless the rest of your setup is of a standard to warrant it. The majority of these tubes make their way into the high end 2 channel audio world where as far as pricing is concerned literally anything goes. Genuine vintage WE 300B's pairs are currently on EBay for up to US $15,000. So with high end audio there is no point in trying to rationalise prices. The average person would think we are all insane.
> 
> No you don't need to spend much $ to get decent tubes.


 
  
 Well said and spot on.  I have never listened to a pair of WE 300Bs but my new production Takatsuki 300Bs sound amazing.
  
 The TS BGRPs are really good, but a nice pair of Sylvanias for $100 a pair are over 90% of the way there.


----------



## richard51

i read extensively on the net and try both the 6sn7 and 7193..... these citations say that better than my own words :
  
 «The ultimate 6SN7 for me wasn't a 6SN7 at all. I replaced the 6SN7s in my Supratek Chenin preamp with CCS loaded 2C22 (7193) single triodes...»
  
 « In my experience, the 7193 is sonically superior to any 6sn7 regardless of manufacture... nos or otherwise.Comparatively speaking: the 7193's sonic signature is a combination of the best of the 6sn7 family.Combine the bass power and depth of the Kenrad black, the 3 dimentional midrange of the old tungsol round plate,the bloom of the Rca grey glass with the treble extention of the best nos sylvania's.
 Although a little more difficult to find these days, they generally sell for a fraction of the cost of the nos 6sn7's.»


----------



## Mechans1

3083joe said:


> 170ish for singles but 400-800 paired is what's they are going for on eBay.
> Trying to get a set but can't pay that price. 200-300 sounds more fair but most will not sell for that.


 

 Agree they are out of control terms of price these days in .  Even worse some pairs sound like garbage, and you assume the risk because they aren't dead, just flat and dull!  I had better luck assembling singles and "matching" using my tube tester, for gm..


----------



## 3083joe

How do you match them per say?


----------



## gibosi

richard51 said:


> i read extensively on the net and try both the 6sn7 and 7193..... these citations say that better than my own words :


 
  
 Which brands have you tried? And which brands are your favorites?


----------



## richard51

gibosi said:


> Which brands have you tried? And which brands are your favorites?


 

  i have ken-rad .. ..a citation i pick on the net explain it better than my words :
  
 « Since I have converted my Chenin to 7193s, I have been evaluating the different brands of 7193s available (in addition to enjoying the great sound!). Let me say that they are all excellent tubes, but there are some subtle differences between them, both in sound and in construction. All have black, relatively flat plates, with small boxes in the center.
 National Union: The NUs have the smallest bottle of the three 7193s, and the getter is not visible from the exterior of the tubes. They have a round top and bottom mica. These were the first 7193s I ever heard, and they sound very good indeed. These are silky smooth, with a rich midrange. They are a little rolled off on the extremes compared to the other two tubes, but it is a not a huge difference.
 RCA: The RCAs have a larger bottle than the NUs, with a bottom getter and round top and bottom mica. They have more extended highs and lows than the NUs, with fuller bass and a little more detail on top. Not quite as smooth as the NUs, and not quite as warm in the midrange.
 Ken-Rad: The biggest bottle of the three, slightly larger than the RCA, with bottom getter and non-round top and bottom mica (looks like a round mica with a section cut out in each quadrant). The best bass of the three - the impact of kick drums is sensational, and bass lines can be felt and heard in great detail. The highs are nice and airy, with very good detail, and the midrange is very sweet as well.
 So overall, in my opinion, I would rank the 7193s as follows:
 Ken-Rad: best overall - it has everything
 National Union: smoothest and warmest sounding, but a little less top and bottom than the others
 RCA: Similar to the Ken-Rad, but not quite as smooth in the highs. »


----------



## gibosi

Thanks for the info on 7193s. I will add these to my list of tubes to try in the future.


----------



## richard51

gibosi said:


> Thanks for the info on 7193s. I will add these to my list of tubes to try in the future.


 

 its a pleasure for me to communicate my joy......thanks for your interest


----------



## DecentLevi

neogeo333 said:


> _(regarding the Tung Sol 6SN7 BGRPs)_
> You can get the 12sn7 and 6f8g version for lot cheaper.  Its a fairly sought after tubes with very neutral sound.  I prefer the round micas and 6f8g version.


 
  
 So does anyone know if there's an adapter for the 12SN7 or 6F8G tubes to work on the Ember amp? (via 12AT7, 6SN7 adapter size)?


isquirrel said:


> Some people would say they are the best 6SN7 on the planet. The scarcity of them also keeps the prices high. That and the fact that you can buy current production 300B & 274B's which are arguably as good as the original whereas with 6SN7 there no current production tube as good as the various NOS ones. Hopefully that situation will be rectified soon. Of course its crazy to spend that kind of $ unless the rest of your setup is of a standard to warrant it. The majority of these tubes make their way into the high end 2 channel audio world where as far as pricing is concerned literally anything goes. Genuine vintage WE 300B's pairs are currently on EBay for up to US $15,000. So with high end audio there is no point in trying to rationalise prices. *The average person would think we are all insane.*
> 
> No you don't need to spend much $ to get decent tubes.


 
  
 That's funny and true! I for one, may have never known sanity.


----------



## DecentLevi

(accidental post)


----------



## DecentLevi

(accidental post)


----------



## jamato8

decentlevi said:


> So does anyone know if there's an adapter for the 12SN7 or 6F8G tubes to work on the Ember amp? (via 12AT7, 6SN7 adapter size)?
> 
> That's funny and true! I for one, may have never known sanity.


 

 The 12SN7 is a 12.6 volt heater, the 6F8G is a 6.3. Adapters are made but the heater voltages have to be correct and the adapter does not change the heater voltage that is on the board.


----------



## 2359glenn

jamato8 said:


> decentlevi said:
> 
> 
> > So does anyone know if there's an adapter for the 12SN7 or 6F8G tubes to work on the Ember amp? (via 12AT7, 6SN7 adapter size)?
> ...


 

 I have made 12SN7 adapters with a built in voltage doubler but the amp has to be running
 the 6SN7 on AC. Same for the 25SN7/1633/13D1 adapter.


----------



## jamato8

2359glenn said:


> I have made 12SN7 adapters with a built in voltage doubler but the amp has to be running
> the 6SN7 on AC. Same for the 25SN7/1633/13D1 adapter.


 

 Most use DC because of noise though it is also promoted that AC heaters allow the tube to be more dynamic. The Cary Audio Six Pacs ran AC on the input tubes. I changed mine to DC because of the hum, which the DC heater got rid of. Sometimes it is the placement of the wires near AC and sometimes it is just the AC heaters.


----------



## Stereolab42

jamato8 said:


> Most use DC because of noise though it is also promoted that AC heaters allow the tube to be more dynamic. The Cary Audio Six Pacs ran AC on the input tubes. I changed mine to DC because of the hum, which the DC heater got rid of. Sometimes it is the placement of the wires near AC and sometimes it is just the AC heaters.


 
  
 Also, I think the Eddie Current amps use AC for the heaters (high-frequency to avoid hum).


----------



## DecentLevi

Some of you took an interest in 7193 tubes, so if you want you can click here for my recent review now that I own a set.


----------



## Stereolab42

Took a risk and ordered some NOS/NIB metal-base Melz 6N8S from the Ukraine... claim was 1953 production (hi Stalin!). These aren't the ultra-expensive 1578 version with the holes in the plates, but the much cheaper "regular" version. Got them today, in perfect shape, and they test great. More importantly, they sound superb... listening right now to the 1968 first album by the brilliant progressive folk group "The Pentangle". They're on the detailed side, like Sylvanias.
  
 I also have some 5C3S (5U4G) rectifiers on-order from the same seller, which I have high hopes for. It's looking like NOS Soviet tubes are underrated... at least 6SN7 and 5U4G compatible ones.


----------



## Mechans1

3083joe said:


> How do you match them per say?


 

 They are not matched in terms of electronics, although I have matched by  transconductance -gm on occasion..  My matches are simply of same brand same plate structure and same date.  I generally batch for brand  and age which yields same structure.. When I do test or use others test results   I keep them  as close as possible.by gm or gain emission.
  I also buy matched pairs, quads, etc. I once ordered a matched octet, for a Jadis DA-60.


----------



## DecentLevi

I hope this doesn't make a 'dumbest question' list or anything, but I was curious to ask:
  
 Would it be more recommended to store tubes upright or on their side? I'm just thinking for long term storage that keeping them one or the other way could have some small impact on the effect of gravity on the filaments, etc. Thanks


----------



## Badas

decentlevi said:


> I hope this doesn't make a 'dumbest question' list or anything, but I was curious to ask:
> 
> Would it be more recommended to store tubes upright or on their side? I'm just thinking for long term storage that keeping them one or the other way could have some small impact on the effect of gravity on the filaments, etc. Thanks


 
  
  I wouldn't imagine there would be much difference. In the day you saw them stocked on the shelves on their sides and they are designed to stand up. So either should do.
  
 I think more important is to keep them dry. I live in a humid city, so I have deoxited all my pins. DeOxit adds a kinda thin layer of oil.


----------



## Neogeo333

I dont think it matter what position their stored.  Most of mine are boxed with foam peanuts inside.  Never had a problem that way.


----------



## jamato8

decentlevi said:


> I hope this doesn't make a 'dumbest question' list or anything, but I was curious to ask:
> 
> Would it be more recommended to store tubes upright or on their side? I'm just thinking for long term storage that keeping them one or the other way could have some small impact on the effect of gravity on the filaments, etc. Thanks


 

 Tubes are often laid on their side but it has been put forth that the best storage position is either up or down rather than on the side. I have over 3000 tubes and mine are stored upright. The reasoning was that over time they could sag and the grid is very close to the plate. If they would really do this, I don't know. I have bulk packed tunes and they were always stored upright but that would also be more convenient.


----------



## Synthax

musicman59 said:


> Thanks for the link. Did you special ordered your because I don't see a headphones output on the one in the website.



Sorry for the late reply. I did order this option as upgrade.
Concerning the tubes I finally decided to stay with Tung-Sols RP


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello 6SN7 gurus, I currently own and have tested 13 6SN7 tubes so I thought I would copy my impressions for you all. Some things to consider first however are: This is only a small slice of the types of 6SN7 tubes available so there still can be better tubes of this type. Also however these tubes were tested with proper equipment to be in good condition, these were all vintage tubes, so some of yours could sound better if they are less used. And in terms of my rankings, although I absolutely love a few of these, the highest ranking I gave them was 8/10 - saving the higher rankings for other tubes of a totally different type that I have found to be superior, or for ones I haven't heard yet. Also regarding THD "total harmonic distortion", this is just my personal impression of how much distortion / saturation the tube adds after comparing it to a solid state amp, without using any scientific testing equipment. Lower THD is better. So basically take this with a medium size grain of sand, and YMMV.
  
Sylvania     6SN7 GTA
Clarity: 8.5/10. THD: 7/10. Bass: full, pleasing with very slight sub-bass roll off. 'Priceless' energy 9.5/10. Great timbre. Overall: 8/10 wonderful

Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7 WGT
Clarity: 9/10. THD:   6.5/10. Bass: proper FR w. sub-bass extension, pleasing but [slightly-slightly] low in quantity. Energy: 9/10 Overall: 8/10 fantastic

Raytheon 6SN7 GT Black Plate
Clarity: 9.5/10. THD: 5/10 Bass: proper FR w. sub-bass extension but slightly low in quantity. Energy: 7/10. Overall: 7.8/10

Sylvania 6SN7 GT
Clarity: 7.6/10. THD: 4/10 (semi-good). Bass: Good FR but slightly low in quantity. Energy: 7.7/10. Very refined overall: 7.7/10

Zenith 6SN7 GTB
Clarity: 9.9/10. THD: 6/10. Bass: proper FR w. sub-bass extension but slightly low in quantity. Very refined and punchy. Energy: 8.5/10. Overall: 7.7/10

Westinghouse 6SN7 GTA
Clarity: 8.6/10. THD: 6/10. Bass: proper FR but severely lacking in quantity. Energy: 7.5/10. Overall: 6.8/10

Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7 GT
Clarity: 7.7/10 THD: 4/10 (semi-good). Bass: slightly middish w. slight sub-bass roll off, noticeably low in quantity. Upper-treble slightly rolled off. Energy: 7/10. Overall: 6/10

Tun Sol      6SN7 GT (mouse ears design)
Clarity: 7/10.    THD: 5/10. Bass: mid-hump, sub-bass roll off, slightly weak in quantity. Energy: 6/10.  Overall: 6/10

Sylvania CHS 6SN7 WGTA
Clarity: (7?)/10, THD: 7/10. Bass middish, timbre maybe slightly high yet nice sounding. Energy nice. Overall: 6/10

Tall Raytheon 6SN7 GTB
Clarity: 6.5/10, THD: 3 (good). Bass middish w. slight sub bass roll off and noticeably low in quantity. Energy: 5.5/10. Overall 5.2/10
  (mine has a constant 'humm')

Sylvania     6SN7 GTB  
Clarity: 6/10. THD: 8/10. Bass: middish, sub-bass roll off. Sounds 'throaty' and artificially 3D until it makes your brain feel sick. Overall: 5/10

Tung Sol 6SN7 GTB
Clarity: (?), THD 6/10. Bass: middy / boxish. Overall: (5?)/10


----------



## r one

Great informations for us . thanks for your hard work.


----------



## r one

gibosi said:


> A reminder...  There is a bottom getter version, 6SN7GT, and a side getter version, 6SN7GTA. r one has the bottom getter version. The side getter is similar, but with a bit more bass.


 
 Hi Gibosi, have you got a picture of a GTA Fivre and the side getter to show me ?


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> Hi Gibosi, have you got a picture of a GTA Fivre and the side getter to show me ?


 
  
 I posted these pictures about a month ago:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/4995#post_11682583


----------



## r one

If the tube is yours Gibosi, could you show the side getter ?


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> If the tube is yours Gibosi, could you show the side getter ?


----------



## r one

Thanks gibosi . original getter I have never seen a getter like this


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> Thanks gibosi . original getter I have never seen a getter like this


 
  
 It is often called a "D" getter, because it resembles a capital "D", and it was fairly common in the mid 1950's.  Around the late 1950's and into the early 1960's, the "O" or "Halo" getter became the norm.


----------



## r one

I mean in side position, i've never seen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Are you sure that this gta was made by Fivre ? Is it not a rebranded tube ? A friend of mine dont find gta model  in Fivre documentation.


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> I mean in side position, i've never seen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, given how old these tubes are, I think it is impossible to be "sure". lol. But the "staggered" plates and the shape of the mica spacers would indicate that both were manufactured in the same factory. In fact, the only visible difference I can see between my "GT" and "GTA" is the location of the getter.
  
 The originator of this thread, rosgr63 (who we haven't seen here in several months... I sure hope he is OK?), is the person who told me that side getters = GTA and bottom getters = GT. However, I do not know where he learned this....


----------



## Mechans1

The difference between a GT and a GTA or GTB is not a function of the position of the getter but an electrical difference.  I have to look it up to give you the correct parameters.  It could coincidently also be seen in this particular manufacturer also be seen with a change in the getter position.


----------



## jamato8

GT and tubes prior to the GTA and GTB had a max plate voltage of 300 volts. The GTA and GTB are rated at a max of 450 volts on the plate with a peak of 1200 volts. The prior tubes can often run in the higher voltage circuits but do to lesser tolerances, the 300 volts was used. On the tubes after the GT type, tolerances were tightened up and they uprated the tube to 450 volts. Also the cathode will have X amount of voltage on it and it is the difference from cathode to plate that you look for.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> The difference between a GT and a GTA or GTB is not a function of the position of the getter but an electrical difference.  I have to look it up to give you the correct parameters.  It could coincidently also be seen in this particular manufacturer also be seen with a change in the getter position.


 
  
 Of course the difference is not a function of the getter postion. And of course, the difference is electrical. However, Fivre 6SN7 often have no labels, 6SN7GT and 6SN7GTA. And when I asked rosgr63 how to tell the difference, he told me the getter position was the feature he used. And of course, this is only for Fivre 6SN7.


----------



## Stereolab42

The antics of eBay tube sellers never fail to amaze me. The latest offenses against good sense:
  
 1. A guy selling a Sylvania VT-99 clearly advertised as NOS/NIB. No picture of the box is provided. When asked, he admits he does not have the box. And no returns are offered. He's about to get a painful lesson in negative feedback from some unlucky buyer.
  
 2. A guy selling a pair of RCA VT-231 at a suspiciously low price. He claims they were "tested on a hickok 533A and test strong as new  ( the given value is 2600 for this tester and they are all much higher as you can see in pictures 5-8)." And indeed he includes a picture of the tubes being tested on the Hickock. But the meter clearly shows a poor Gm of 1700. How stupid does he think we are?


----------



## jamato8

stereolab42 said:


> The antics of eBay tube sellers never fail to amaze me. The latest offenses against good sense:
> 
> 1. A guy selling a Sylvania VT-99 clearly advertised as NOS/NIB. No picture of the box is provided. When asked, he admits he does not have the box. And no returns are offered. He's about to get a painful lesson in negative feedback from some unlucky buyer.
> 
> 2. A guy selling a pair of RCA VT-231 at a suspiciously low price. He claims they were "tested on a hickok 533A and test strong as new  ( the given value is 2600 for this tester and they are all much higher as you can see in pictures 5-8)." And indeed he includes a picture of the tubes being tested on the Hickock. But the meter clearly shows a poor Gm of 1700. How stupid does he think we are?


 

 Stupid enough that some may buy them but it is more of ignorance and trust most of the time. You so much better off to buy from guys like Jim McShane. There are other sellers, some good and some cranky.


----------



## SonicTrance

stereolab42 said:


> The antics of eBay tube sellers never fail to amaze me. The latest offenses against good sense:
> 
> 1. A guy selling a Sylvania VT-99 clearly advertised as NOS/NIB. No picture of the box is provided. When asked, he admits he does not have the box. And no returns are offered. He's about to get a painful lesson in negative feedback from some unlucky buyer.
> 
> 2. A guy selling a pair of RCA VT-231 at a suspiciously low price. He claims they were "tested on a hickok 533A and test strong as new  ( the given value is 2600 for this tester and they are all much higher as you can see in pictures 5-8)." And indeed he includes a picture of the tubes being tested on the Hickock. But the meter clearly shows a poor Gm of 1700. How stupid does he think we are?




I looked up the RCA auction and I think he means that the minimum value is 2600 on his tester. That seems accurate if you look at the second row of numbers on the scale. And they do test higher.


----------



## Stereolab42

sonictrance said:


> I looked up the RCA auction and I think he means that the minimum value is 2600 on his tester. That seems accurate if you look at the second row of numbers on the scale. And they do test higher.


 
  
 I considered that possibility but if the range was set to 0-6k the second row would mean 3400 Gm... I've NEVER seen a 6SN7/6F8G within 300 Gm of that value on my calibrated 3444 (and that includes a half-dozen pairs of this exact tube). And the fact he doesn't include a picture of the range setting as well is suspicious.


----------



## jamato8

stereolab42 said:


> I considered that possibility but if the range was set to 0-6k the second row would mean 3400 Gm... I've NEVER seen a 6SN7/6F8G within 300 Gm of that value on my calibrated 3444 (and that includes a half-dozen pairs of this exact tube). And the fact he doesn't include a picture of the range setting as well is suspicious.


 

 I have a number of calibrated Hickoks. 2 439c's and a few more. What is the typical reading you get for a NOS 6SN7?


----------



## Stereolab42

jamato8 said:


> I have a number of calibrated Hickoks. 2 439c's and a few more. What is the typical reading you get for a NOS 6SN7?


 
  
 2600-3000. Usually only see 3000 on 6F8Gs, 6SN7s usually 2700.


----------



## jamato8

I just looked at some I had graded over 10 years ago. They are 2600 (a pair I matched that all four sections are 2600, which is surprising).


----------



## Amish

wanted to come in here and mention one of my tubes that really stands out and is IMO one of the best tubes I've used with my amp.
  
 I have quite a few hours on this tube now and swapping tubes back and forth I keep coming back to this 6SN7 out of the other 6SN7 tubes I own...and others.
  
 This is a 1946 RCA 6SN7GT, Black plates, copper grids.
  
 It arrived to me with a red dot painted on it. Now I have seen red paint on tube tips in the past, (I own a couple actually) and usually this is to mark a tube that is above average. That said I did not know if this was the case with this RCA tube.
  
 This RCA was actually made by Sylvania.
  
 It is one outstanding tube. The entire FR is perfect to my ears. Deep, realistic, precise bass, lovely mids that are clean and really lush, and perfect highs that aren't too bright but really detailed and sparkly.
  
 Every time I come back to this tube I get this great big smile on my face. Just awesome.


----------



## r one

amish said:


> Every time I come back to this tube I get this great big smile on my face. Just awesome.


 
 like me with Fivre 6Sn7Gt. This RCA tease me...


----------



## jamato8

amish said:


> wanted to come in here and mention one of my tubes that really stands out and is IMO one of the best tubes I've used with my amp.
> 
> I have quite a few hours on this tube now and swapping tubes back and forth I keep coming back to this 6SN7 out of the other 6SN7 tubes I own...and others.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes they would check for matched sections and for needs of different types, would provide select tubes. It is a very nice tube. I have it is the Sylvania marked tube. I was lucky to pick up a bunch in NOS and original boxes. Too bad we can't get to this stage with new tubes. It was life back then and they really pursued the metallurgy, coatings, vacuum and everything to make the tube the best. I have a friend who worked for RCA and he designed tubes and has sever tube patents to his name but since he worked for RCA, his name is there but never any of the money they generated. That guy knows his tube circuits and anything you think is new today in design, isn't.


----------



## Stereolab42

I put red dots on my tubes with a wax pencil simply to mark which I use for the right channels.


----------



## jamato8

stereolab42 said:


> I put red dots on my tubes with a wax pencil simply to mark which I use for the right channels.


 

 There you go! 
  
 They would put a dab of paint on special tubes and red was often used. I have some that were super spec for medical equipment. They were often burned in and put through more testing.


----------



## Mechans1

You really don't know why that red dot is there.  There are no conventions for tube marking, it could easily be there for something undesirable such as microphony.  That's another ball of wax I won't go into here but you get my gist.  Granted most dots whether red green blue or white were used primarily to mark special select tubes.  That has been my experience anyway.
 I am kinda jealous, I have a boatload of 6SN7s and have several which are really exceptional so I don't have one that always does the trick.  It is an embarrassment of riches thing.  I think if I had to name just one that spends more time in my amp I would say Sylvania also but the Ws or the original (40s) GT.  Same construction, people call them Chrome Domes, not to be confused with the bottom getter (as in your "RCA" or the triangle plated GTAs and GTBs.
 BTW I am sure you know about the company codes which for Sylvania is 312, 322 for Tung Sol and 274 for RCA .etc..


----------



## Synthax

r one said:


> like me with Fivre 6Sn7Gt. This RCA tease me...




And me with TS RP 6f8g


----------



## r one

Which are so good too


----------



## bigtube

I have had the cv181's from china . Sophia's are form china . I have about 150 6sn7's so I have heard them all . For the money the american 6sn7, vt 231 sound better, last longer and test better.
 I have 4 Hickok testers and a Triplett. One of the best 6sn7's are Tong-sols round plates.
 thanks Rick


----------



## Shaffer

Has anyone used these very tall, coin base RCA 6SN7GTB? Supposedly, they were made for Wurlitzer.


----------



## Mechans1

I am familiar with them.  They are not supposed to be any good but it has been years since I heard them.  With so many other choices for old stock tubes I would  choose other versions of the RCA if that is the soun you are after.  The grey glass and the VT-231 RCA 6SN7s are very good, and well received for their "musical lush" character.  Let us know how they sound if you already own the coin based tubes.


----------



## bigtube

I have used them too. They seen to be ok.


----------



## Shaffer

This is my first set of coin-based tubes. As for the sound, _enormous _bass, albeit a bit one-note. The overall sound is a little veiled, but extended, and all that may very well change in a few hours time. Not a dark sounding tube, so far. We'll see how it goes.

My wife is disturbed by a lack of glow.


----------



## Skylab

I have some coin-base Sylvanias. They're not bad at all. Not my favorite Sylvania tube, but much better than, say, current production Electro-Harmonix


----------



## bigtube

Hello any of you guys tried a 7n7 with a adapter . I'ts a 6sn7 locktil . They are one of the best sounding. Lots of detail.
 great sound stage.
 thanks Iric


----------



## gibosi

bigtube said:


> Hello any of you guys tried a 7n7 with a adapter . I'ts a 6sn7 locktil . They are one of the best sounding. Lots of detail.
> great sound stage.
> thanks Iric


 
  
 The vast majority of 7N7 were manufactured by Sylvania, regardless of the branding. However, occasionally, we run across one manufactured by National Union.
  
 The Sylvanias are characterized by the classic chrome dome, some with smoked glass and some clear. The early ones have the older T-plates and later ones have angled plates.
  
 All the NUs I have seen have smoked glass. Typically there is a 1/4 inch gap between the smoke and the top of the base. And most interestingly, I think, looking into that gap, you can see the round plates and free standing support rods that are characteristic of the NU 6F8G. And as one might expect, it sounds very similar to the 6F8G.


----------



## gibosi

To change things up a bit, in the picture below is a pair of Mullard ECC31, also known as NR73. The etched production code is "1029.1 1MV". Mullard didn't start using the standard Philips codes until after 1955, or so, and I have not been able to find any reliable information on deciphering these old Mullard codes. As a result, I am reasonably certain these were manufactured sometime before 1955. but can't be more specific than that.
  
 In another forum, someone asked about using these in a 6SN7 socket, but as the ECC31 has a common cathode, that is, both sections share one cathode, I had my doubts. However, 2359Glenn, who made my amp, suggested that if an adapter is used to tie the common cathode to both of the 6SN7 cathodes in the socket, the tube would work, but he couldn't say how good it might sound... 
  
 Well, my curiosity got the best of me, so I began to search Google for information about the ECC31, and I found two very interesting items.
  
 First, the 1949 Mullard Valve Reference manual states:
  
 "The ECC32 and ECC31 are identical except that the ECC32 has separate cathodes"
  
 And of course, given the current prices for ECC32, this really got my attention! 
  
 And second, the correct cathode resistance for the ECC32 should be 1/2 to 2/3 that of a 6SN7. Well, it just so happens that tying the common cathode in an ECC31 to both 6SN7 cathodes in the socket reduces the cathode resistance by 1/2. As a result, it would appear that using such an adapter provides the ECC31 with the correct bias. On the other hand, simply sticking an ECC32 into a 6SN7 socket results in the cathode resistance being twice as high as it should be. But does this mean that the ECC31, with adapter, will sound better than a ECC32 in the same amp? Unfortunately, I do not have an ECC32, so I won't be able to answer that question....
  
 Oh, I should point out that the heaters draw about 1.0A, so if anyone else wants to try the ECC31 and/or ECC32, make sure your amp can handle it.
  
 Anyway, I found this nice pair of NR73, picked up an ECC31 to ECC33 adapter, and I am very pleased to report that the ECC31 lights up and plays. Of course, it is way too soon to say much more than that, but I am not hearing anything that sounds unpleasant, that is for sure.


----------



## jamato8

skylab said:


> I have some coin-base Sylvanias. They're not bad at all. Not my favorite Sylvania tube, but much better than, say, current production Electro-Harmonix


 
 I have found them a little graining in the highs and not as transparent as a good 6SN7 type. IMO. 
  


bigtube said:


> Hello any of you guys tried a 7n7 with a adapter . I'ts a 6sn7 locktil . They are one of the best sounding. Lots of detail.
> great sound stage.
> thanks Iric


 
 I have used it off and on for years. I like them. The 7AF7 is also used but for me, they always seem to go noisy.


----------



## zeed

Hi guys
  
 I got a Ken-rad 6SN7GT which differs from all the other ones I could see online, both clear and black glasses.
 It has black flat (?) plates, round top mica and copper rods.
  
 Data code is 1-43, so 43week of 1951.
  
 Anyone have info about this version?
  
 Here the pics:
  





  
  
 I really couldn't find anything online, quite strange!


----------



## jamato8

Well it has some nice copper grid posts.


----------



## bigtube

I have tung-sol round plates . They really do sound wonderful. But at 300-500$ holly molly. But you can get them as 12sn7's for 40$ each.


----------



## whirlwind

bigtube said:


> I have tung-sol round plates . They really do sound wonderful. But at 300-500$ holly molly. But you can get them as 12sn7's for 40$ each.


 
 and the 12SN7 sounds the same


----------



## jamato8

Actually most of the time the 12.6 volt 12XXX tubes are quieter and do offer a good buy.


----------



## abvolt

does that mean I can use a 12sn7 in place of a 6sn7 thanks..


----------



## jamato8

abvolt said:


> does that mean I can use a 12sn7 in place of a 6sn7 thanks..


 

 No and yes. You can use a 12SN7 if you change the filament voltage to 12.6 or there about. That would require a change in the supply. I have a preamp and dac that I made for either with a flip of a switch but most all commercial tube devices do not possess this. So basically, no, you would need to have it altered. The rest of the circuit is exactly the same.


----------



## zeed

jamato8 said:


> Well it has some nice copper grid posts.


 
  
 Yeah, but with round top mica instead of the rectangular one we are used to see everywhere.
  
 Like this:


----------



## bigtube

Do you hear a difference. From round to rectangular?


----------



## gibosi

zeed said:


> I got a Ken-rad 6SN7GT which differs from all the other ones I could see online, both clear and black glasses.
> It has black flat (?) plates, round top mica and copper rods.
> 
> Data code is 1-43, so 43week of 1951.
> ...


 
  
 Notice "188-5" This is GE's EIA code. In 1945, GE purchased the Ken-Rad vacuum tube division and the factory in Owensboro, Kentucky, became GE's primary tube manufacturing facility. I would say that by the time this tube was manufactured, GE had already implemented their own designs. The rectangular mica with staggered plates, the classic Ken-Rad construction, has been replaced by the round mica and the plates have been "unstaggered", characteristic of GE designs. However, since the Ken-Rad name was recognized for quality, GE kept using it until they introduced their "5 Star" line in the mid 1950's.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> Notice "188-5" This is GE's EIA code. In 1945, GE purchased the Ken-Rad vacuum tube division and the factory in Owensboro, Kentucky, became GE's primary tube manufacturing facility. I would say that by the time this tube was manufactured, GE had already implemented their own designs. The rectangular mica with staggered plates, the classic Ken-Rad construction, has been replaced by the round mica and the plates have been "unstaggered", characteristic of GE designs. However, since the Ken-Rad name was recognized for quality, GE kept using it until they introduced their "5 Star" line in the mid 1950's.


 
 You really know your tube history, gibosi. I always enjoy reading your "historic" posts


----------



## Mechans1

abvolt said:


> does that mean I can use a 12sn7 in place of a 6sn7 thanks..


 

 Most of us who have preamps or input 6SN7 tube equipment, cannot just sub a 12SN7.  There are pre amps and other gear  that you can buy with the 12 volt tube as an option.  I know that Mapletree amps had that ability, but haven't heard about them recently. You may want to check them out.  It is a lot easier and much cheaper, to get 12SN7 Tung Sol RPs for instance, than the 6 volt counterparts. 
 Also the staggered vs non stagger did not fundamentally change the SQ of the Ken Rad which is easily recognizable with its bass boost and extension.. There may have been changes later on that made Ken Rads sound more like GEs but it wasn't obvious.  Ken Rad tubes sound Like Ken Rads regardless of the EIA code.


----------



## gibosi

And some Glenn amps have a switch to allow the selection of 6.3 volt, 12.6 volt and 25 volt drivers. And yes, there are some nice 25SN7GTs, such as the 13D3 and 1633.


----------



## gibosi

sonictrance said:


> You really know your tube history, gibosi. I always enjoy reading your "historic" posts


 
  
 You are very kind. Thank you. But really, it is Google who knows all. I am only a scribe.


----------



## Mechans1

gibosi said:


> And some Glenn amps have a switch to allow the selection of 6.3 volt, 12.6 volt and 25 volt drivers. And yes, there are some nice 25SN7GTs, such as the 13D3 and 1633.


 

 Are you quite sure about the 13D3?  I have some 13D5 which I sub for 12AU7 /ECC82.  I know the function of a 6SN7 has been compared to a 12AU7 but this little dual triode just doesn't seem like it could be a 12SN7 which is just another dual triode, I know that just hard to swallow. Especially if you are going to go up to 25 volts.  Interesting indeed.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> Are you quite sure about the 13D3?  I have some 13D5 which I sub for 12AU7 /ECC82.  I know the function of a 6SN7 has been compared to a 12AU7 but this little dual triode just doesn't seem like it could be a 12SN7 which is just another dual triode, I know that just hard to swallow. Especially if you are going to go up to 25 volts.  Interesting indeed.


 
  
 Oh, typo! 
  
 It is the 13D1 that is a 25 volt SN7. As you note, the 13D3 is a 9-pin all glass dual triode with the same pinout as a 12AU7.
  
 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/13d1.pdf


----------



## whirlwind

Yeah 13D1 gibosi....Glenn told me to grab this one....said it was very good. It is 25 volt


----------



## gibosi

Yeah, I have the 13D1 and the 13D3. And it appears that the 25 volt 1633 was manufactured by RCA and Ken-Rad only. And of these three 25SN7, I think the 13D1 is the best. And I like it better than the 13D3, as well.
  
 But for now, I am really digging the Mullard ECC31.


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> Yeah, I have the 13D1 and the 13D3. And it appears that the 25 volt 1633 was manufactured by RCA and Ken-Rad only. And of these three 25SN7, I think the 13D1 is the best. And I like it better than the 13D3, as well.
> 
> But for now, I am really digging the Mullard ECC31.


 

 My first OTL amps only hade 25 volts on the SN7 socket
 The 13D1 and Ken-Rad 1633 could be gotten very cheap and were better then most much more expensive 6SN7s.
 I can still get Ken-Rad 1633s for $4 that will sound better then most 6SN7s


----------



## Skylab

As someone who once blew up an amp, a long time ago, in a failed tube rolling experiment, I have to caution...

If you are not totally sure what you are doing, do NOT go trying whacked out tube substitutions. VERY rare is the amp where a 12SN7 can be safely subbed for a 6SN7. There are a few, but they are few and far between.


----------



## jamato8

skylab said:


> As someone who once blew up an amp, a long time ago, in a failed tube rolling experiment, I have to caution...
> 
> If you are not totally sure what you are doing, do NOT go trying whacked out tube substitutions. VERY rare is the amp where a 12SN7 can be safely subbed for a 6SN7. There are a few, but they are few and far between.


 

 If you can change the heater voltage there is no problem. But as you mention, there aren't many that have this ability built in.


----------



## 2359glenn

skylab said:


> As someone who once blew up an amp, a long time ago, in a failed tube rolling experiment, I have to caution...
> 
> If you are not totally sure what you are doing, do NOT go trying whacked out tube substitutions. VERY rare is the amp where a 12SN7 can be safely subbed for a 6SN7. There are a few, but they are few and far between.


 

 gibosi's amp has a 6.3-12.6-25.2 volt switch for the SN7 socket. And if it gets left on 12.6 or 25.2 and a 6.3 volt tube
 gets put in it will current limit and not burn out the tube.


----------



## whirlwind

2359glenn said:


> skylab said:
> 
> 
> > As someone who once blew up an amp, a long time ago, in a failed tube rolling experiment, I have to caution...
> ...


 
 Great feature, Glenn....you think of everything


----------



## zeed

gibosi said:


> Notice "188-5" This is GE's EIA code. In 1945, GE purchased the Ken-Rad vacuum tube division and the factory in Owensboro, Kentucky, became GE's primary tube manufacturing facility. I would say that by the time this tube was manufactured, GE had already implemented their own designs. The rectangular mica with staggered plates, the classic Ken-Rad construction, has been replaced by the round mica and the plates have been "unstaggered", characteristic of GE designs. However, since the Ken-Rad name was recognized for quality, GE kept using it until they introduced their "5 Star" line in the mid 1950's.


 
  
 Thank you gibosi for your detailed explanation.
  
 That means this tube is quite different from the 1940's VT231 tube which however sells for a much higher price..!


----------



## Demonmnky

decentlevi said:


> Tall Raytheon 6SN7 GTB
> Clarity: 6.5/10, THD: 3 (good). Bass middish w. slight sub bass roll off and noticeably low in quantity. Energy: 5.5/10. Overall 5.2/10
> (mine has a constant 'humm')


 
  
 I have the same tube. Mine hums in my Darkvoice336i only when paired with particular power tubes. I have a short bottle one that hums with the opposite power tubes. I'm not sure if this is a documented phenomenon or just a weird coincidence. 
  
 Tall bottle hums with RCA and Svetlana 6AS7Gs.
  
 Short bottle hums with Mullard and GE 6080s.


----------



## DecentLevi

You should try the Raytheon 6SN7 GT (pictured below). I had initially rated it my 3rd favorite 6SN7 tube among the 13 I tried, but I am discovering what a gem this one really is. Better clarity and bass speed / impact is really spot on, compared to my other two which I thought were my favorite that I realise to be slightly bloated bass and not quite as fast handling rhythms as this one.


----------



## 300b

I have 118 pieces of nos tested octals...


----------



## 300b

mostly 6sn7/6sl7 American early 40's...


----------



## 300b

skylab said:


> As someone who once blew up an amp, a long time ago, in a failed tube rolling experiment, I have to caution...
> 
> If you are not totally sure what you are doing, do NOT go trying whacked out tube substitutions. VERY rare is the amp where a 12SN7 can be safely subbed for a 6SN7. There are a few, but they are few and far between.


----------



## 300b

currently I'm trying to build a 2 channel system around my tubes...


----------



## 300b

burned up 2 pairs of NOS 2A3's by using a lower voltage variation of the same tube...


----------



## 300b

I'm new to head-fi and finding difficulties posting, changing my avatar, my name ect.


----------



## jamato8

2359glenn said:


> gibosi's amp has a 6.3-12.6-25.2 volt switch for the SN7 socket. And if it gets left on 12.6 or 25.2 and a 6.3 volt tube
> gets put in it will current limit and not burn out the tube.


 

 That is a nice feature.


----------



## Westron

I have switched out Sylvania 12SN7 and Sophia Electric 6SN7, along with noval Mullards and found the Sophia electric to be the most pleasing. My Sophia's aren't perfectly matched, one glows a little brighter than the other but they sound pretty much exactly the same, only at very low volumes does the less bright one sound at all different.

 I'm glad I had a chance to purchase the Cavalli Liquid Glass 2, it provided an awesome experience with 6.3 and 12.6 tubes, noval and octal. Sadly I have to part ways with it, if anybody is interested in a cheap package deal of the Cavalli Liquid Glass and a pair of Sophia 6SN7s let me know. I will be making a classifed ad for them soon.


----------



## 2359glenn

whirlwind said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > skylab said:
> ...


 

 Your amp will be the same but with 42EC4 rectifiers and Lundahl transformer


----------



## 3083joe

whirlwind said:


> and the 12SN7 sounds the same



How would that work in wa6? !


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> To change things up a bit, in the picture below is a pair of Mullard ECC31, also known as NR73. The etched production code is "1029.1 1MV". Mullard didn't start using the standard Philips codes until after 1955, or so, and I have not been able to find any reliable information on deciphering these old Mullard codes. As a result, I am reasonably certain these were manufactured sometime before 1955. but can't be more specific than that.
> 
> In another forum, someone asked about using these in a 6SN7 socket, but as the ECC31 has a common cathode, that is, both sections share one cathode, I had my doubts. However, 2359Glenn, who made my amp, suggested that if an adapter is used to tie the common cathode to both of the 6SN7 cathodes in the socket, the tube would work, but he couldn't say how good it might sound...
> 
> ...



Interesting. 
Did you use this type adapter?


----------



## gibosi

Yes, my adapter looks identical to those. I purchased mine from happydiy998 after asking for and receiving a wiring diagram. I wanted to be sure that the common cathode of the ECC31 was in fact connected to both 6SN7/ECC33 cathodes in the socket.


----------



## whirlwind

3083joe said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > and the 12SN7 sounds the same
> ...


 
 I am not sure if the WA6 takes 12SN7 tubes or not.....maybe someone who owns a WA6 can chime in.


----------



## Skylab

whirlwind said:


> I am not sure if the WA6 takes 12SN7 tubes or not.....maybe someone who owns a WA6 can chime in.




NO. It most definitely does NOT.

Again, while a VERY few designs from people like Glenn have voltage switches that allow for this, the VAST majority of amps that use a 6SN7 cannot use a 12SN7, or 25SN7. I know that you tube veterans know this, but it worries me that some tube noob is going to halfway read this thread, think it's OK to sub a 12SN7 for a 6SN7 just because they both say SN7, and POOF. 

For those who do not know/realize, the first digit of the U.S. Tube naming convention is the voltage. So a 6SN7 is 6 volts, the 12SN7 is 12 volts. Unless there is a specific design allowance for it, meaning a voltage switch, one cannot substitute tubes like this.


----------



## Mechans1

skylab said:


> NO. It most definitely does NOT.
> 
> Again, while a VERY few designs from people like Glenn have voltage switches that allow for this, the VAST majority of amps that use a 6SN7 cannot use a 12SN7, or 25SN7. I know that you tube veterans know this, but it worries me that some tube noob is going to halfway read this thread, think it's OK to sub a 12SN7 for a 6SN7 just because they both say SN7, and POOF.
> 
> For those who do not know/realize, the first digit of the U.S. Tube naming convention is the voltage. So a 6SN7 is 6 volts, the 12SN7 is 12 volts. Unless there is a specific design allowance for it, meaning a voltage switch, one cannot substitute tubes like this.


 

 I am new to HeadFi  but not to tubes.  I wanted to agree with this post and add some emphasis, saying it is crucial ,  correct and  important!


----------



## bigtube

How about half a 6sn7.Do any Head amps use 6j5's


----------



## gibosi

bigtube said:


> How about half a 6sn7.Do any Head amps use 6j5's


 
  
 With suitable adapters, I would suspect that the 6J5 and the 7193 can be used in many headphone amps using the 6SN7 as a driver.


----------



## jamato8

bigtube said:


> How about half a 6sn7.Do any Head amps use 6j5's


 

 They make nice adapters for everything now or you can even request it. I have some very, very fine 6J5 tubes but ended up liking the 27 mesh plate better and the 76 more than the 6J5.


----------



## 300b

hmmmm...good luck!


----------



## SonicTrance

Does anyone know how to test ECC33's in a tube tester that doesn't have settings for that tube in the chart? Is there an American equivalent I should be looking for? Tube tester I'm using is a Heathkit TT-1A.
 Thanks.


----------



## jamato8

sonictrance said:


> Does anyone know how to test ECC33's in a tube tester that doesn't have settings for that tube in the chart? Is there an American equivalent I should be looking for? Tube tester I'm using is a Heathkit TT-1A.
> Thanks.


 

 What are the electrical properties? What tube does it match closest to? Then get an adapter, if the pin out is different, and use those settings. That is how they did it back in the 1920's and early 30's before they started having more and more tubes and before there was much available. I used to correspond with a user of a 1920's Hickok tester (one of which I own) and he sent me diagrams of tubes that were new back then and how they would make adapters and then test the tubes. Sadly, like all will, he has died so that information and experience that he had, mostly went with him. Anyway, that is one way to do it. Match the electrical properties and then get the pin out.


----------



## SonicTrance

jamato8 said:


> What are the electrical properties? What tube does it match closest to? Then get an adapter, if the pin out is different, and use those settings. That is how they did it back in the 1920's and early 30's before they started having more and more tubes and before there was much available. I used to correspond with a user of a 1920's Hickok tester (one of which I own) and he sent me diagrams of tubes that were new back then and how they would make adapters and then test the tubes. Sadly, like all will, he has died so that information and experience that he had, mostly went with him. Anyway, that is one way to do it. Match the electrical properties and then get the pin out.


 
 Which properties should I look for? There's so many variables in a tube. If I look at tube gain the 6C8G is very close, as gibosi suggested to me, with a mu 36 vs mu 35 for the ECC33. Heater current is almost the same, 0,4A for ECC33 and 0,3A for 6C8G. But all other specifications are very different I'm afraid.


----------



## bigtube

Let me look at my hickok settings . A ecc33 compared to a 6sn7. I will get back. I know the bises is much lower.


----------



## ericr

The Project Solstice from Garage1217.com accepts both 6 & 12 volt tubes. From the website:

Tube rollers DREAM. Just like our other designs, Solstice can accept a vast qty of tubes. Solstice also features full Auto-Bias just like our Flagship amplifier - Project Ember! Drop a tube in and she will set things up quickly without having to fiddle with dialing in tube bias. The only thing you have to select is tube heater voltage when changing from 6v or 12v tubes which is a quick and painless process.

Note: You'll need their 8 to 9 pin adapter to use the 6SN7, etc.


----------



## richard51

ericr said:


> The Project Solstice from Garage1217.com accepts both 6 & 12 volt tubes. From the website:
> 
> Tube rollers DREAM. Just like our other designs, Solstice can accept a vast qty of tubes. Solstice also features full Auto-Bias just like our Flagship amplifier - Project Ember! Drop a tube in and she will set things up quickly without having to fiddle with dialing in tube bias. The only thing you have to select is tube heater voltage when changing from 6v or 12v tubes which is a quick and painless process.
> 
> Note: You'll need their 8 to 9 pin adapter to use the 6SN7, etc.


 

 with 2 adapter on top of one another the Ember will allow the experiencing of the 7193 tubes , superior to all my 6sn7 .... this is a fantastic amp....


----------



## whirlwind

2359glenn said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > 2359glenn said:
> ...


 
 Thank you sir, is it in production


----------



## 3083joe

skylab said:


> NO. It most definitely does NOT.
> 
> Again, while a VERY few designs from people like Glenn have voltage switches that allow for this, the VAST majority of amps that use a 6SN7 cannot use a 12SN7, or 25SN7. I know that you tube veterans know this, but it worries me that some tube noob is going to halfway read this thread, think it's OK to sub a 12SN7 for a 6SN7 just because they both say SN7, and POOF.
> 
> For those who do not know/realize, the first digit of the U.S. Tube naming convention is the voltage. So a 6SN7 is 6 volts, the 12SN7 is 12 volts. Unless there is a specific design allowance for it, meaning a voltage switch, one cannot substitute tubes like this.



Thanks. Didn't think it would.


----------



## gibosi

The more I listen to this Mullard ECC31, the more I like it. The only negative thing I can say about it is that it puts on a very pathetic light show.
  

  
 The sound I am hearing conforms with the reviews I have read regarding the ECC32, very solid bass with substantial impact and detail, the mids are smooth with just a hint of lushness, and the highs are extended, with excellent detail and no trace of harshness. I took a bit of a chance buying this tube, but in the end, I am very pleased.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> The more I listen to this Mullard ECC31, the more I like it. The only negative thing I can say about it is that it puts on a very pathetic light show.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Awesome. Think I'll give them a try . How much have you found them to be going for?
Tia


----------



## gibosi

Currently, for Mullard ECC31, all I see on eBay are "Buy It Now" listings, and most of them are asking around $100 a tube. However, I purchased mine in a regular auction and at the end, paid $125 for the pair. So it seems that if someone wants to try them now, it may be necessary to pay $100 a tube. If someone is willing to wait for them to come up in a regular eBay auction, probably quite a bit less.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> Currently, for Mullard ECC31, all I see on eBay are "Buy It Now" listings, and most of them are asking around $100 a tube. However, I purchased mine in a regular auction and at the end, paid $125 for the pair. So it seems that if someone wants to try them now, it may be necessary to pay $100 a tube. If someone is willing to wait for them to come up in a regular eBay auction, probably quite a bit less.



Thanks I'll keep my eye out.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, does anybody here know if a 6SN7 tube that's labeled as a 'guitar tube' has the same voltage specs as a normal tube would - so it's not likely to blow up on my amp?
  
 Thanks - photo below


----------



## Skylab

Your tube doesn't know whether it's in a guitar amp or a headphone amp


----------



## tagosaku

maybe so, but I swear some of my tubes have feelings


----------



## jamato8

decentlevi said:


> Hello, does anybody here know if a 6SN7 tube that's labeled as a 'guitar tube' has the same voltage specs as a normal tube would - so it's not likely to blow up on my amp?
> 
> Thanks - photo below


 

 That would be interesting. Then there might also be tubes for bass guitar, rhythm, lead . . :^) . . Hendrix liked the black plate 5751 in place of the 12AX7. He liked the control he could do with the distortion. But like Skylab stated, a tube doesn't know and a circuit is a circuit and if designed correctly, it will be the same basic electrical parameters in one or the other. I do have tubes I coddle though, just to keep them happy.


----------



## bigtube

Yes it is a 6sn7. Go a head and use it.


----------



## r one

it's simple


----------



## Mechans1

jamato8 said:


> That would be interesting. Then there might also be tubes for bass guitar, rhythm, lead . . :^) . . Hendrix liked the black plate 5751 in place of the 12AX7. He liked the control he could do with the distortion. But like Skylab stated, a tube doesn't know and a circuit is a circuit and if designed correctly, it will be the same basic electrical parameters in one or the other. I do have tubes I coddle though, just to keep them happy.


 
 I will try to calm your nerves tha 6SN7 you show an RCA 6SN7GT  grey glass will make very beautiful music for you.  They are sought by many 6SN7 enthusiasts for their "musicality" and can be used in any circuit design that calls for a 6SN7.  Stop worrying go ahead and try it.  You will probably  like it!
  
 I would have thought that Hendrix would use a tube that distorts  but at a high level.  Therefore my guess for Hendrix would have been  the RCA 7025, IIRC.  That tube has a huigher mu and distorts easily when pushed.


----------



## jamato8

mechans1 said:


> I will try to calm your nerves tha 6SN7 you show an RCA 6SN7GT  grey glass will make very beautiful music for you.  They are sought by many 6SN7 enthusiasts for their "musicality" and can be used in any circuit design that calls for a 6SN7.  Stop worrying go ahead and try it.  You will probably  like it!
> 
> I would have thought that Hendrix would use a tube that distorts  but at a high level.  Therefore my guess for Hendrix would have been  the RCA 7025, IIRC.  That tube has a huigher mu and distorts easily when pushed.


 

 No, he liked the 5751 black plate RCA. It gave him the swirling tones he wanted. 
  
 I never cared for the grey glass 6SN7. I have them in NOS and just don't get the clarity and transparency I like. Others MMV.


----------



## gibosi

jamato8 said:


> They make nice adapters for everything now or you can even request it. I have some very, very fine 6J5 tubes but ended up liking the 27 mesh plate better and the 76 more than the 6J5.


 
  
 Which brands of 76 do you prefer?


----------



## jamato8

gibosi said:


> Which brands of 76 do you prefer?


 

 RCA. It in many tests, proved to be the best over everything else.


----------



## gibosi

jamato8 said:


> RCA. It in many tests, proved to be the best over everything else.


 
  
 Thanks! I am inclined to give them a try.


----------



## Joeybgood

Jeremy of Garage 1217 got a shipment in of the GE Firewire 6SN7 in. Does anyone have any experience with this tube? It would appear the vast majority feel the RCA is the best sounding of the 6SN7s so I'm wondering how this variety compares to it. Tks!


----------



## bigtube

How do they test?


----------



## gibosi

joeybgood said:


> Jeremy of Garage 1217 got a shipment in of the GE Firewire 6SN7 in. Does anyone have any experience with this tube? It would appear the vast majority feel the RCA is the best sounding of the 6SN7s so I'm wondering how this variety compares to it. Tks!


 
  
 I have never even seen a "GE Firewire 6SN7". Can you give us a link?


----------



## Joeybgood

*We just received a shipment of beautifully testing and sounding GE firewire 6sn7 tubes (a GE firewire is shown in the Sunrise photo below)*

 - $29.99 for the tube alone or $49.99 with 6sn7 adapter at a combo discount!
 - Shipping $5.50 for domestic shipments, or $24.99 for international via global priority mail
  
WWW.GARAGE1217.COM
  
 This info was sent to me via email from Jeremy. I purchased the Project Ember from him and am thus on his mailing list. He has a pretty extensive tube inventory that you can access via that link I sent but the GE Firewire is not listed on it. You need only email him and he will send you an invoice for payment via PayPal.
  
  
  <admin@garage1217.com>


----------



## connieflyer

This is the picture he was talking about,    A beautiful Sunrise III with larger heatsinks gracing my office today Running our 6sn7 adapter and a ge firewire 6sn7 tube


----------



## connieflyer

My personal favorite was and still is a KenRad VT 231until I discovered the matched pair of 7193 single triodes, I believe that they are a better option for me, I have used alot of 9 pin tubes from top of the line to bottom  feeders and with the Project Ember, I preferred the 6SN7 family of tubes.  Tried several of these and like the Ken Rad's best.  Now with the 7193 tubes the Ember's soundstage and clarity is better, more delineated mids and highs and bass line is great. This using the hd  650's only.  Have two pair of them, and two pair of 1944 vintage 7193's, I believe the tubes will outlast me my several years.  Of course YMMV


----------



## gibosi

connieflyer said:


> This is the picture he was talking about,    A beautiful Sunrise III with larger heatsinks gracing my office today Running our 6sn7 adapter and a ge firewire 6sn7 tube


 
  
 I see... He is calling these "Firewire" because of the small exposed filament wire above the top mica spacer. But in the end, these are a standard 1960's version of the GE 6SN7GTB that can readily be found on eBay. I don't own a pair, so can't comment on how they sound....
  
 If you are interested in exploring 6SN7, I suggest you check out the 6SN7 Reference Thead:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 One reviewer's opinion:
  
 ● “MID-1960s EXPOSED FILAMENT WIRE: This one has the filament wire running across the top-mica between the cathodes, giving a nice lighting effect - but sonically, it's not very good - dry, grainy, zippy highs, a flat, uninvolving sound. Nice light effect though.” –Robert H


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> I see... He is calling these "Firewire" because of the small exposed filament wire above the top mica spacer. But in the end, these are a standard 1960's version of the GE 6SN7GTB that can readily be found on eBay. I don't own a pair, so can't comment on how they sound....




I own a pair...



> One reviewer's opinion:
> 
> ● “MID-1960s EXPOSED FILAMENT WIRE: This one has the filament wire running across the top-mica between the cathodes, giving a nice lighting effect - but sonically, it's not very good - dry, grainy, zippy highs, a flat, uninvolving sound. Nice light effect though.” –Robert H




Agree.


----------



## Simon Templar

> ● “MID-1960s EXPOSED FILAMENT WIRE: This one has the filament wire running across the top-mica between the cathodes, giving a nice lighting effect - but sonically, it's not very good - dry, grainy, zippy highs, a flat, uninvolving sound. Nice light effect though.” –Robert H


 
  
  
 ...Which is something that can be said for nearly any 6SN7GTB.
  
 I've yet to hear a GTB that sounded very good....regardless of brand.  At best, a few were bearable.
  
  
  
  
 ....sT


----------



## Joeybgood

connieflyer said:


> This is the picture he was talking about,    A beautiful Sunrise III with larger heatsinks gracing my office today Running our 6sn7 adapter and a ge firewire 6sn7 tubet


 
 This tube is not getting much love. Jeremy from G1217 likes it a great deal and am wondering what your impressions of it are? tks


----------



## Mechans1

I can add that for certain applications the sound of the green letter (early) Sylvania 6SN7GTB can work  well.  They have good  body and upper bass boost yielding a rich , warm tube, that is better than many of the other GTBs of the era.  I do not use one myself, given all the excellent alternatives.  I don't like "piling on"  but in this case I too found the GEs to be some of the least attractive tubes around.  However, before the up  market Treasure tubes, Psvanes and Russian Tung Sol your choices for new current production was Shuguang and Electro Harmonix.  The GEs are  better than either of those two  IMHO etc. etc.  Not as clear cut as it used to be, but I would still bet the GE would fare well against new production.


----------



## HeatFan12

mechans1 said:


> I can add that for certain applications the sound of the *green letter (early) Sylvania 6SN7GTB can work  well.  They have good  body and upper bass boost yielding a rich , warm tube, that is better than many of the other GTBs of the era*.  I do not use one myself, given all the excellent alternatives.  I don't like "piling on"  but in this case I too found the GEs to be some of the least attractive tubes around.  However, before the up  market Treasure tubes, Psvanes and Russian Tung Sol your choices for new current production was Shuguang and Electro Harmonix.  The GEs are  better than either of those two  IMHO etc. etc.  Not as clear cut as it used to be, but I would still bet the GE would fare well against new production.


 
  
  
 These?
  
  

  
  
  
  
 Indeed!!! I think they are great sounding GTBs as well.


----------



## Mechans1

I re read your post and agree with one of the posts that referred you to a review of 6SN7s.  That said only so much can be learned for other peoples impressions and evaluations.  It is a good place to start your education, taking some suggestions from what you read and learn of.  However a lot of reference threads lead to inferiority complexes, if you find yourself unable to track down and pay for the best of the best, such as a GEC/MOV B65.  So the best way to learn is to acquire some of the more frequently suggested and  used tubes.  That then allows you, yes you, to decide what  sound you like most.  It is not the least expensive way as you will get some 6SN7s you won't like or won't like as much as some others.  This is reiterative  meaning by trial and error, note there is some error.  The important thing is to genuinely like what you like and not what people tell you to like, that lesson is priceless.


----------



## HeatFan12

mechans1 said:


> I re read your post and agree with one of the posts that referred you to a review of 6SN7s.  That said only so much can be learned for other peoples impressions and evaluations.  It is a good place to start your education, taking some suggestions from what you read and learn of.  However a lot of reference threads lead to inferiority complexes, if you find yourself unable to track down and pay for the best of the best, such as a GEC/MOV B65.  So the best way to learn is to acquire some of the more frequently suggested and  used tubes.  That then allows you, yes you, to decide what  sound you like most.  It is not the least expensive way as you will get some 6SN7s you won't like or won't like as much as some others.  This is reiterative  meaning by trial and error, note there is some error.  The important thing is to genuinely like what you like and not what people tell you to like, that lesson is priceless.


 
  
  
 Were you referring to my post?  I haven't posted in this thread in a while until I quoted you on the green letter Sylvanias.  No one has referred me to another post.  I was looking for a nice power tube combo for one of my amps when I caught your post about the Sylvanias (older, green print).  I merely asked if you were referring to the ones in the pic I posted.
  
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Shaffer

mechans1 said:


> I re read your post and agree with one of the posts that referred you to a review of 6SN7s.  That said only so much can be learned for other peoples impressions and evaluations.  It is a good place to start your education, taking some suggestions from what you read and learn of.  However a lot of reference threads lead to inferiority complexes, if you find yourself unable to track down and pay for the best of the best, such as a GEC/MOV B65. * So the best way to learn is to acquire some of the more frequently suggested and  used tubes.  That then allows you, yes you, to decide what  sound you like most.*  It is not the least expensive way as you will get some 6SN7s you won't like or won't like as much as some others.  This is reiterative  meaning by trial and error, note there is some error.  The important thing is to genuinely like what you like and not what people tell you to like, that lesson is priceless.




I agree. In my case, I was familiar with the commonly used audiophile tubes - 6550, EL-34, 6922, 12AX7, etc. Octals and some of the lesser known tubes in HP amps were new to me. That being the case, I hit Ebay and acquired a variety of drivers and output tubes. Didn't spend a lot. I did it to get a point of reference and to find out what I liked. 

6SN7-wise, I liked CBS, Baldwin/Raytheon, Tung-Sol, (60s) Foton, and something else I'm forgetting, along with 7N7 and 7AF7 loctal base bottles. Output tubes, I liked 6080 RCAs from the 50s and early-60s - JAN and consumer - 6080 Chathams, Raytheons, and 5-star GEs, both black and grey plate RCA 6AS7G, Chatham 6AS7G - also JAN and consumer versions - and the Russian 6AS7Gs. I still don't spend a whole lot on tubes, but my purchasing is more focused.


----------



## Skylab

heatfan12 said:


> These?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree. These are very good sounding tubes. There are other good sounding GTB's, as well. Like the tall black-plate Raytheons, just to name one.


----------



## Mechans1

skylab said:


> I agree. These are very good sounding tubes. There are other good sounding GTB's, as well. Like the tall black-plate Raytheons, just to name one.


 

 I wanted to quote the  "These"?  Yes those.  Also I should have also mentioned the Tung Sol GTB- No it is not the holy grail round plate, no cool looking black glass,  but very competent good sounding tubes that don't do anything terrible to the sound.  I think in many ways, it is more of a challenge to discover good sound from tubes that aren't so famous or expensive.  There is also the problem of famous tubes never getting discarded or put aside.  The spent tube is not always obvious in terms of Gm.  It can show up as sound quality, I own a couple of TS RPs that just don't have anything left to sing with but can pass a good/bad test.
 My real  problem is having so many good choices and too few sockets to use them in.


----------



## rosgr63

simon templar said:


> ...Which is something that can be said for nearly any 6SN7GTB.
> 
> I've yet to hear a GTB that sounded very good....regardless of brand.  At best, a few were bearable.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The GE 6SN7 don't sound that good, the "Light Bridge" as some call it is nice to look at but sonically nothing special.
  
 I agree with Skylab's comment there a few nice sounding and quiet GTB's.
  


skylab said:


> I agree. These are very good sounding tubes. There are other good sounding GTB's, as well. Like the tall black-plate Raytheons, just to name one.


----------



## gibosi

rosgr63 said:


> I agree with Skylab's comment there a few nice sounding and quiet GTB's.


 
  
 Haven't seen you here in ages! Welcome back!


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks gibosi


----------



## Skylab

Yes indeed Stavros it's very nice to "see" you


----------



## HeatFan12

skylab said:


> I agree. These are very good sounding tubes. There are other good sounding GTB's, as well. Like the tall black-plate Raytheons, just to name one.


 
  
  
 Been a long time rockin' Rob!!!
  
 Still have too many 6SN7s due to the journey you put me on years ago.  lol   ...I have behaved and not really purchased any in about two years (or maybe a year).


----------



## Skylab

heatfan12 said:


> Been a long time rockin' Rob!!!
> 
> Still have too many 6SN7s due to the journey you put me on years ago.  lol   ...I have behaved and not really purchased any in about two years (or maybe a year).




Ha! Same here, buddy. I haven't bought any tubes in several years but I still have...ummmm...a LOT


----------



## rosgr63

skylab said:


> Yes indeed Stavros it's very nice to "see" you


 
  
  
 Thanks Rob.
  


skylab said:


> Ha! Same here, buddy. I haven't bought any tubes in several years but I still have...ummmm...a LOT


 
  
  
 I just buy occasionally now.
 Funny thing is I still use the same cheap tubes for sometime now and enjoy them.
 Most of my expensive ones are still boxed up.


----------



## dminches

rosgr63 said:


> Thanks Rob.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  Hi Stavros!
  
 Remember, use it or lose it.


----------



## 2359glenn

dminches said:


> rosgr63 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Rob.
> ...


 

 Stavros has an unbelievable collection of tubes.  Has some that I never seen before I knew they existed but never seen them before I visited him.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi David,
  
 You are so right, but remember it's not easy I'm an addict!!!!!!!
  
  
 Come on Glenn you better visit soon and check what is gone or any new additions.........
 Plus I learn a lot every time we meet not to mention the good time we always have.


----------



## bigtube

So why don't you live it up. Do a little tube rolling. You remember what happened to Thoren [ the dworf king ]. When they killed the dragon and he got his mounitan of gold back.


----------



## 2359glenn

rosgr63 said:


> Hi David,
> 
> You are so right, but remember it's not easy I'm an addict!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


 

 What is cooking over there????
 Lucy is already planning the trip just have to come up with the money for tickets.


----------



## 3083joe

Wish there was some meet ups around my area. Would love to meet some of you all and try some different equipment !


----------



## rosgr63

2359glenn said:


> What is cooking over there????
> Lucy is already planning the trip just have to come up with the money for tickets.


 

 i am not telling, you find out......


----------



## jibzilla

Has anyone compared a 6sn7w to a 6f8g tsrp? I know it depends on the amp but any info would be helpful. The 6sn7w sounds amazing in my Teton. I like it more than the b65 even, but is really hard to fit in and I'm afraid of damaging the Teton.
  
 I'm thinking maybe just a 6sn7 to 6sn7 adapter instead and enjoy the 6sn7w for what it is?


----------



## 2359glenn

jibzilla said:


> Has anyone compared a 6sn7w to a 6f8g tsrp? I know it depends on the amp but any info would be helpful. The 6sn7w sounds amazing in my Teton. I like it more than the b65 even, but is really hard to fit in and I'm afraid of damaging the Teton.
> 
> I'm thinking maybe just a 6sn7 to 6sn7 adapter instead and enjoy the 6sn7w for what it is?


 

 Just get a 8pin socket saver and use the 6SN7W


----------



## Mechans1

jibzilla said:


> Has anyone compared a 6sn7w to a 6f8g tsrp? I know it depends on the amp but any info would be helpful. The 6sn7w sounds amazing in my Teton. I like it more than the b65 even, but is really hard to fit in and I'm afraid of damaging the Teton.
> 
> I'm thinking maybe just a 6sn7 to 6sn7 adapter instead and enjoy the 6sn7w for what it is?


 

 I am unclear on why the 6SN7W  doesn't fit in your socket , it's an  octal made for such tubes?  Is it too tight or too loose? In any event, a new socket on the board  should work. I would think that a double socket will make for a some kind of problem. I am a big fan of Ws and the earlier 6SN7W with an A on the glass top..  You will hear any problem that might arise and know how to remedy the problem.
 P.S. are the pins straight?  Use a pin protector if you can find one.


----------



## cheeseeater

Hi. I'm new to this thread.  I recently acquired a Liquid Glass.  Looking for 6sn7 recommendations.  I just today took delivery of Psvane Treasure II CV181's.  I really like them ( I couldn't resist listening before burning them in) BUT the noise floor is high.  Will the noise floor drop as they burn in or does it stay staple?  Microphonics are high too. That surprised me.  Is there something else I should try?


----------



## Mechans1

cheeseeater said:


> Hi. I'm new to this thread.  I recently acquired a Liquid Glass.  Looking for 6sn7 recommendations.  I just today took delivery of Psvane Treasure II CV181's.  I really like them ( I couldn't resist listening before burning them in) BUT the noise floor is high.  Will the noise floor drop as they burn in or does it stay staple?  Microphonics are high too. That surprised me.  Is there something else I should try?


 

 Welcome to the world of the 6SN7 or any fancy name CV181 or CV1988 or European  tubes like ECC33 or ECC32 etc.  The tube is notorious for microphonics, but some like Jim  McShane of  McShane Designs over on Audio Asylum or even my no name self don't think microphonics is a terrible evil if not too intrusive..  Noise generated by the tube, yes that's bad.  Typically noise is seen in the oldest tubes so it is odd that your recent production tube should have a lot of it.  You may want to get your money or a new quieter tube from from your vendor. But please do not try every potential noise making event looking for it.  In other words be reasonable with these delicate noise prone tubes. That is my advice.
 If  noise really bums you out in any form then offer extra for special testing and have time to wait for the extra quiet tube to become available.  There is one lab  RAM Labs by Rodger Modjeski (?sp) who sells and specializes in ultra quiet tubes but not 6SN7s .  I may be wrong and you should take a look.  Good Luck but its bot microphonia that makes most of the amps sound bad IMHO, I is the overall design and demands placed on certain tubes. When it works it's heavenly


----------



## jibzilla

mechans1 said:


> I am unclear on why the 6SN7W  doesn't fit in your socket , it's an  octal made for such tubes?  Is it too tight or too loose? In any event, a new socket on the board  should work. I would think that a double socket will make for a some kind of problem. I am a big fan of Ws and the earlier 6SN7W with an A on the glass top..  You will hear any problem that might arise and know how to remedy the problem.
> P.S. are the pins straight?  Use a pin protector if you can find one.


 
  
 It is way too tight. The pins on it seems bigger than my other 6sn7 tubes. Def. do not want to mess up my Teton.


----------



## bigtube

I have never been a fan Of the China's cv181.Try any 6sn7gtw on your way to the best one for your amplifier.
 Remeber it's the journey thats fun.


----------



## bigtube

I am having A Chicago audio socitey get to geather this sunday. Come on over , I have a lot of fun stuff. 
 thanks Rick 708 645 1237


----------



## Mechans1

bigtube said:


> I have never been a fan Of the China's cv181.Try any 6sn7gtw on your way to the best one for your amplifier.
> Remeber it's the journey thats fun.


 

 That is something I have been trying to say about 6SN7 collecting and playing.  I think you should try multiple tubes before shooting for the moon and getting a B65 for example. .   There should be an accruaul of understanding leading to true sophistication.  I think I it much more rewarding.  I have been at this for well opver a decade and still don't own somn some holy grail tubes. I have many but not all..  It is also fn knowing which tubes will work best in a variety of circumstances .  When and if I ever invest in a true GEC/MOV B 65 I hope I know how it is better or conceivably worse than some of the other fine  examples I own and use.
 P.S. I own and use B309s on occasion. (non for  6SN7 use of course)


----------



## Shaffer

mechans1 said:


> That is something I have been trying to say about 6SN7 collecting and playing.  *I think you should try multiple tubes before shooting for the moon and getting a B65 for example. There should be an accruaul of understanding leading to true sophistication. I think I it much more rewarding.*  I have been at this for well opver a decade and still don't own somn some holy grail tubes. I have many but not all..  It is also fn knowing which tubes will work best in a variety of circumstances .  When and if I ever invest in a true GEC/MOV B 65 I hope I know how it is better or conceivably worse than some of the other fine  examples I own and use.
> P.S. I own and use B309s on occasion. (non for  6SN7 use of course)




Excellent advice. Agree completely.


----------



## Mechans1

Another question I should have asked is what role the 6SN7s (CV181s) have in your system?  In mine they are voltage amplifiers responsible for gain my pre-amp a very sensitive role indeed. .Or as the input and splitter on my HP amp, just 1 of 3 tubes. I find  I can use microphonic tubes BTW, I just don't tap them while using them.  No noisy tubes however.
 Also  forgot to mention another potential source for quiet 6SN7s.  You might want to check out Brent Jesse of Audiotubes .com  Google his name for the correct address.  He screens his tubes for Microphonia, I don't know about intrinsic noise but I would assume it matters to him. I also meant to ask what you thought might be contributing to the noise.  Are your other  electronic components quiet?  Are your Cables secure and damped and so on?  Good luck and be aware that the prescreening will come at a cost.
  
 PM me if you want.


----------



## cheeseeater

mechans1 said:


> Another question I should have asked is what role the 6SN7s (CV181s) have in your system?  In mine they are voltage amplifiers responsible for gain my pre-amp a very sensitive role indeed. .Or as the input and splitter on my HP amp, just 1 of 3 tubes. I find  I can use microphonic tubes BTW, I just don't tap them while using them.  No noisy tubes however.
> Also  forgot to mention another potential source for quiet 6SN7s.  You might want to check out Brent Jesse of Audiotubes .com  Google his name for the correct address.  He screens his tubes for Microphonia, I don't know about intrinsic noise but I would assume it matters to him. I also meant to ask what you thought might be contributing to the noise.  Are your other  electronic components quiet?  Are your Cables secure and damped and so on?  Good luck and be aware that the prescreening will come at a cost.
> 
> PM me if you want.


 
 I've been going on the working assumption that my tubes are drivers.  It's the cavelli Liquid Glass.  I don't think they're power tubes, and I'm sure they're not rectifiers.  Just drivers.  If there is another option I'm not aware of it.  And the microphonics don't really concern me.  As long as the whole package is great.  Kinda like a woman with a big butt, if the whole package is good I can go for it.  
  
 I'm not sure what contributed to the noise.  The only other tubes I've had noise issues with were ones I was warned were noisy.  So in that case I would say it was the tube.  I've never had noise problems with any other tube until the Psvane  treasure II cv181.  I have one dedicated receptacle in the house I can use to test the power if I need to.  And it has an isolated ground. But the good news is that I just got home and the tubes have been burning on pink noise for about 8 or 9 hours and the noise has improved noticeably.   If they continue in this trend I will be very happy with these tubes.


----------



## Skylab

Yes, in a Cavalli Liquid Glass, the tubes are driver / gain stage. The outputs are solid state.


----------



## Joeybgood

skylab said:


> Yes, in a Cavalli Liquid Glass, the tubes are driver / gain stage. The outputs are solid state.


 
 Is that true for the Garage 1217 Project amps as well?


----------



## Skylab

Yes, hence the term "hybrid"


----------



## Jeb Listens

Hi guys!
  
 New to 6SN7s!  I've read through the info on this thread and on the other reference head but still a little confused about the Brimar/STC  CV1988/6SN7GTY/GT  situation.
  
 Reading that thread I understand that apart from some rare RCA examples, only Brimar/STC made 6SN7GTYs and they all should have brown bases.  
  
 I also read that tubes that are labelled STC are often relabelled tubes made by many other manufacturers so..
  
 1) In that case is there any reason to be suspicious of the origins of an STC labelled, brown-base, black-glass tube that carries the 6SN7GTY designation?
  
 2) Are these 6SN7GTY black glass, brown base tubes not held in as high esteem as the CV1988 or are they the same? 
  
 3) Are these impossible questions to answer without having the tubes side by side? :-/
  
  
 Thank you!
  
 Jeb


----------



## Skylab

Well one thing to clarify...STC was an actual tube manufacturer. Brimar was just a brand. STC made a lot of tubes branded Brimar, which stood for British Manufactured American Radio tubes. There were indeed tubes branded Brimar that were made by companies other than STC, including in later days Russian tube makers. 

As for the specific tubes you're asking about...only pictures will help.


----------



## Jeb Listens

skylab said:


> Well one thing to clarify...STC was an actual tube manufacturer. Brimar was just a brand. STC made a lot of tubes branded Brimar, which stood for British Manufactured American Radio tubes. There were indeed tubes branded Brimar that were made by companies other than STC, including in later days Russian tube makers.
> 
> As for the specific tubes you're asking about...only pictures will help.


 

 Skylab - Thank you for clarifying.  
  
 I'm thinking of tubes such as this one below - if that gives you enough to go by?  I've also seen quite a few clear glass, black-base 6SN7 STC labelled too.  The CV1988s seem to be rather rare.


----------



## Skylab

Honestly...I have never, ever seen that STC logo on a tube before. It looks a bit suspicious to me, but the tube does generally look like the 6SN7GTYs I have seen, although without a better look at the innards, hard to say. I have only personally owned the CV1988's which only have the military stenciling. Maybe others with more experience with STC can comment.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Thanks Skylab, I appreciate your thoughts on this.  I'll probably just keep a look out for the CV1988 instead.


----------



## 3083joe

jeb listens said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> New to 6SN7s!  I've read through the info on this thread and on the other reference head but still a little confused about the Brimar/STC  CV1988/6SN7GTY/GT  situation.
> 
> ...



Not sure about all that the others but my 6sn7 brimars have black bases


----------



## Jeb Listens

3083joe said:


> Not sure about all that the others but my 6sn7 brimars have black bases


 

 Thanks Joe! -  how do you like them?


----------



## Oskari

skylab said:


> Honestly...I have never, ever seen that STC logo on a tube before. It looks a bit suspicious to me, but the tube does generally look like the 6SN7GTYs I have seen, although without a better look at the innards, hard to say. I have only personally owned the CV1988's which only have the military stenciling. Maybe others with more experience with STC can comment.


 
  
 The STC logo does appear.
  
 Y = brown low loss 'micanol' base.
  


kiertijai said:


>


 
  
 As regards Brimar, I'd call them a manufacturer. A question of definition I guess.
  


oskari said:


> One could regard Brimar as STC's tube division for the consumer market, although Brimar made receiving tubes for other markets, including lots of CV types. STC itself made the big stuff, but also some receiving tubes. STC sold Brimar to Thorn in 1960. In 1961 Thorn merged their tube interests, including CRTs, with those of AEI forming Thorn-AEI.
> 
> Brimar's home location was the STC site in Footscray. Under Thorn-AEI the site in Rochester became Brimar's main site while Footscray remained an STC site. The STC Paignton sites ("Paignton" and "Oldway" tube manufacturing sites) were unaffected. These were not Brimar locations.


----------



## 3083joe

jeb listens said:


> Thanks Joe! -  how do you like them?



Hey are nice but once I switched to 6f8g s I haven't went back to 6sn7 s


----------



## jamato8

skylab said:


> Honestly...I have never, ever seen that STC logo on a tube before. It looks a bit suspicious to me, but the tube does generally look like the 6SN7GTYs I have seen, although without a better look at the innards, hard to say. I have only personally owned the CV1988's which only have the military stenciling. Maybe others with more experience with STC can comment.


 

 I may be wrong but I thought that only the US used the designation of 6SN7.


----------



## Skylab

oskari said:


> The STC logo does appear.
> 
> Y = brown low loss 'micanol' base.
> 
> ...




Interesting...but weren't there Mullard made tubes that were branded Brimar?




jamato8 said:


> I may be wrong but I thought that only the US used the designation of 6SN7.




That's true EXCEPT for Brimar...that was the whole point of the "British Made American Radio tubes" thing


----------



## gibosi

And also, Philips manufactured the 6SN7 and the 12SN7 in their Eindhoven and Brussels (Mazda) factories. For example, here is a pair of Philips 6SN7 manufactured in Brussels and rebranded as Pope.
  
 The Philips production codes on these tubes are r91 - L6K and r92 - L7F.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/matched-pair-6SN7GT-from-philips-miniwatt-NOS-/301715609163


----------



## Oskari

skylab said:


> Interesting...but weren't there Mullard made tubes that were branded Brimar?


 
  
 Obviously not 6SN7GTs!


----------



## Oskari

jamato8 said:


> I may be wrong but I thought that only the US used the designation of 6SN7.


 
  
 There are numerous counterexamples in this thread.


----------



## Skylab

oskari said:


> Obviously not 6SN7GTs!




Ha!! Very true


----------



## Mechans1

Just to addd to the confusion, "Brimar 6SN7s" were madefor export in Australia they have clear glass and black glass.  The plates were bowed out slightly giving the plate structure a somewhat Ovoid (sort of oval) appearance.  I will have to root around in my 6SN7 collection to find you an example. 
 As for the current discussion I have dark grey and black glass versions of the 6SN7 GTY CV 1988 no consumer tubes in my collection, not counting the ones I just wrote about  Aussie, have brown bases. 
 In terms of sound quality there is simply no contest in my mind that clear glass is an inferior tube, but that is that they have been measured against the GTYs which I like a great deal.  It is a decent tube but nothing special.
 As for European 6SN7s I have only the Brimar CV1988 GTYs and both ECC32s and 33s by Mullard.
 There is no point for me to switch to the precursor,  top cap electrode tube  6F8G, now that I have assembled a fairly comprehensive collection of high quality 6SN7s.  .... Not to mention quite a few ordinary ones as well.
 p.s.  I have seen the STC logo , and it does indeed look like that, but I too have never seen it on a tube


----------



## Oskari

mechans1 said:


> p.s.  I have seen the STC logo , and it does indeed look like that, but I too have never seen it on a tube


 
  
 It did happen:
  

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=site:r-type.org+stc
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=site:tubecollector.org+stc


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, I thought I'd share with you my recent discoveries after trying a bunch more 6SN7's
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/795#post_11867379


----------



## bretemm

I have the Schiit Valhalla2 with the stock tubes, 
I mainly listen to indie rock and Classic rock, 
What would be a good some tubes to try next? (Possibly one that would go well with the greatful dead?)


----------



## Skylab

The Valhala2 does not use the 6SN7 tube (which is the topic of this thread).


----------



## bretemm

Ok, the tubes 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/ECC85/6BZ7
Are what I can use, I thought those might actually of fit in, 
But ingeneral with the ones I mentioned, 
Which should sound good with the greatful dead? 
Thanks, I'm starting to get into tubes now 


skylab said:


> The Valhala2 does not use the 6SN7 tube (which is the topic of this thread).


----------



## gibosi

bretemm said:


> Ok, the tubes 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/ECC85/6BZ7
> Are what I can use, I thought those might actually of fit in,
> But ingeneral with the ones I mentioned,
> Which should sound good with the greatful dead?
> Thanks, I'm starting to get into tubes now


 
  
 As Skylab pointed out, this forum is for the discussion of 6SN7. This is not the place to find the answers to your question. I would suggest you visit the Schitt Valhalla2 thread and the Schitt Lyr threads, both the old one and the current one. There you will find folks with similar equipment and much experience rolling these tubes.
  
 Cheers


----------



## bretemm

Thank you, 
I thought I reconized that tube number as one that would work or if somehow that was related to one I mentioned (I'm just getting started with tubes) 
Thanks 





gibosi said:


> As Skylab pointed out, this forum is for the discussion of 6SN7. This is not the place to find the answers to your question. I would suggest you visit the Schitt Valhalla2 thread and the Schitt Lyr threads, both the old one and the current one. There you will find folks with similar equipment and much experience rolling these tubes.
> 
> Cheers


----------



## magiccabbage

hey guys just wondering what would be considered the better tube between these 2 - *pair RCA 6SN7GTB - pair KEN RAD VT-231 *
 Would it be worth buying both?


----------



## Simon Templar

Definitely the KenRads.  
  
 If you truly have found a pair of NOS KenRads....I'm sure the price is impressive.  Be careful about that, though.  There are a LOT of tubes out there claimed to be NOS....but aren;t even close.  Some I've run across are compleatly worn out.  Sellers hope you don't have a tube tester to verify their claims with.  Even then....you can get taken if you're not careful.
  
  
  
 ....sT


----------



## magiccabbage

simon templar said:


> Definitely the KenRads.
> 
> If you truly have found a pair of NOS KenRads....I'm sure the price is impressive.  Be careful about that, though.  There are a LOT of tubes out there claimed to be NOS....but aren;t even close.  Some I've run across are compleatly worn out.  Sellers hope you don't have a tube tester to verify their claims with.  Even then....you can get taken if you're not careful.
> 
> ...


 
 here 
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782133/fs-collection-of-great-tubes-300b-6sn7-vt-231-gz33


----------



## 3083joe

magiccabbage said:


> hey guys just wondering what would be considered the better tube between these 2 - *pair RCA 6SN7GTB - pair KEN RAD VT-231 *
> Would it be worth buying both?



I like the vt231


----------



## r one

not my favorite but it's a very good tube. RCA too but not the same flavor.


----------



## gibosi

magiccabbage said:


> hey guys just wondering what would be considered the better tube between these 2 - *pair RCA 6SN7GTB - pair KEN RAD VT-231 *
> Would it be worth buying both?


 
  
 Personally, I like the 1940's production better, so I would not encourage you to purchase the RCA GTB, which are later. IMO, of these two, the Ken Rad VT231 is the better buy.


----------



## Skylab

I always found the Ken Rad to be very lush sounding with GOBS of bass. While maybe not as pretty sounding, the RCA 6SN7GTB is actually more balanced, IMO. So it really depends what flavor one is looking for. The Ken Rad VT231 is pretty far from neutral, even by vintage tube standards.


----------



## r one

the best is still FIVRE !


----------



## magiccabbage

r one said:


> the best is still FIVRE !


 
 really?


----------



## gibosi

magiccabbage said:


> really?


 
  
 lol. There is no "best" 6SN7. Everyone has different ears and different gear. What one person loves another might find just acceptable. As a colleague once reminded me, tubes are like ice cream. And the only way to be able to determine your favorite ice cream is to try every flavor in the store. lol  
  
 The Fivre is a very good tube and it could well be your favorite. But the same could be said for RCA, Ken-Rad, Sylvania, Tung-Sol and on and on. In the end, my advice is to buy a bunch of cheap tubes to figure out what you like. And then devote your time and money to buy NOS specimens of the tubes you know you really want. 
  
 Cheers


----------



## r one

True Gibosi ! all is said 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It depends of so much things : your taste, music you listen, your dac and headphone.......


----------



## isquirrel

Ken Rad, if they are the staggered plates which they should be if they are 1940's flavour.


----------



## isquirrel

Couldn't agree more re depends on your mood and system synergy, I have recently found that I am listening to the Sylvania metal base and Bad Boys a lot more instead of my usual TSRP's or 1940's RCA black Plates. I am sure in a few weeks time it will be something else.


----------



## jibzilla

gibosi said:


> lol. There is no "best" 6SN7. Everyone has different ears and different gear. What one person loves another might find just acceptable. As a colleague once reminded me, tubes are like ice cream. And the only way to be able to determine your favorite ice cream is to try every flavor in the store. lol
> 
> The Fivre is a very good tube and it could well be your favorite. But the same could be said for RCA, Ken-Rad, Sylvania, Tung-Sol and on and on. In the end, my advice is to buy a bunch of cheap tubes to figure out what you like. And then devote your time and money to buy NOS specimens of the tubes you know you really want.
> 
> Cheers


 
  
 That is what I did and it is great advice imo. Bought a 6 pack nos midlevel tubes from brent jesse for $300 and got a good idea of what to expect with totl. 6sn7's. At least with Apex amps, Peak/Volcano, Wheatfield ha-2 and Teton they like sylvania's. Either badboy or 6sn7w and you will not be disappointed unless the tube is worn out. Tube quality matters a ton in the Teton. Like having a tube tester built in the amp. Quality matters in the wheatfield and peak/volcano but nowhere near as much as the Teton.
  
 I just recently got 2 6sn7w's from Vintage Tube Services. One a metal base, mid level quality, and the other a short bottle black base, but top level quality. Just me but I prefer the top level quality short bottle black base over the more expensive mid level quality metal base so quality can def. play a role as much as prestige.


----------



## isquirrel

Andy is a great guy, one of the best if not the best at what he does. Interesting. I have not heard the short bottle black base, any chance of a photo please?


----------



## gibosi

isquirrel said:


> Andy is a great guy, one of the best if not the best at what he does. Interesting. I have not heard the short bottle black base, any chance of a photo please?


 
  
 It looks very similar to the more common Sylvania 6SN7GT/A chrome domes. The principle difference to the eye is the free-standing vertical support rod found on all 6SN7W.


----------



## abvolt

gibosi said:


> lol. There is no "best" 6SN7. Everyone has different ears and different gear. What one person loves another might find just acceptable. As a colleague once reminded me, tubes are like ice cream. And the only way to be able to determine your favorite ice cream is to try every flavor in the store. lol
> 
> The Fivre is a very good tube and it could well be your favorite. But the same could be said for RCA, Ken-Rad, Sylvania, Tung-Sol and on and on. In the end, my advice is to buy a bunch of cheap tubes to figure out what you like. And then devote your time and money to buy NOS specimens of the tubes you know you really want.
> 
> Cheers


 
 Very well said indeed..


----------



## tubesareus

Hi guys.
  
 Is there much sonic difference between 5992 and 5991 red base . Most info says all 5992 are made by RCA and relabeled for different companies.
 How about 5991 ? some of those float around e-bay for much lower price then 5992.
 Could some one provide some info on this .
  
 Thanks


----------



## bigtube

hello; a 5691 is a 6SL7  and a 5692 is a 6sn7 .
 Different tubes and 6sn7 are worth more .
 I have both.
 thanks rick


----------



## jamato8

bigtube said:


> hello; a 5691 is a 6SL7  and a 5692 is a 6sn7 .
> Different tubes and 6sn7 are worth more .
> I have both.
> thanks rick


 

 I find the sonic quality of the 5691 to be extremely good and better than most 6SL7 types except the 6SU7 but I have never cared for the 5692 though it has many fans.


----------



## bigtube

I agree about the 5692. I have not done my home work on the 5691.
 thanks rick


----------



## tubesareus

tubesareus said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> Is there much sonic difference between 5992 and 5991 red base . Most info says all 5992 are made by RCA and relabeled for different companies.
> How about 5991 ? some of those float around e-bay for much lower price then 5992.
> ...


 
  


bigtube said:


> hello; a 5691 is a 6SL7  and a 5692 is a 6sn7 .
> Different tubes and 6sn7 are worth more .
> I have both.
> thanks rick


 
 Thank you Rick.
 I see some more responses and thanks to all.
 Now that I went back to see all listings , none says 6SN7  . That's where  I assumed it was just a variation of 6SN7.
 Big question here , can 6SL7 be used as direct replacement for 6SN7 ? i would try to stick them with adopters into WA2.
 Pins would work, voltages OK  ?


----------



## jamato8

tubesareus said:


> Thank you Rick.
> I see some more responses and thanks to all.
> Now that I went back to see all listings , none says 6SN7  . That's where  I assumed it was just a variation of 6SN7.
> Big question here , can 6SL7 be used as direct replacement for 6SN7 ? i would try to stick them with adopters into WA2.
> Pins would work, voltages OK  ?


 

 They work for pin to pin but they are different tubes and a different amplification. The 6SL7 is a voltage tube the 6SN7 is a current tube. The bias is different. There are some amps that have a switch in them so you can use one or the other and it sets up the correct operating points. When each one is set up correctly, IMO, they are both good.


----------



## magiccabbage

Hey guys - I bought received some Ken Rad VT 231's during the week. They were awful and really dry and harsh for the first 2 listening sessions. I thought that id made a huge mistake buying them but last nights listening session was really enjoyable. It seems that they just needed some time to settle. Sounding brilliant at the moment. Loving the sound stage. 
  
 I'm thinking of buying some TS mouse ears.... can anyone describe the differences between these two tubes so i have an idea of what I'm in for. 
  
 I'm using WA5 - yggy - HD800,,,, tubes - EML 300b, Brimar 5zg


----------



## gibosi

magiccabbage said:


> Hey guys - I bought received some Ken Rad VT 231's during the week. They were awful and really dry and harsh for the first 2 listening sessions. I thought that id made a huge mistake buying them but last nights listening session was really enjoyable. It seems that they just needed some time to settle. Sounding brilliant at the moment. Loving the sound stage.
> 
> I'm thinking of buying some TS mouse ears.... can anyone describe the differences between these two tubes so i have an idea of what I'm in for.


 
  
 In addition to any comments that might be posted here, I would suggest the 6SN7 Reference Thread.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 A number of different folks with different ears and gear contributed to this thread making it an interesting read.
  
 Cheers


----------



## whirlwind

magiccabbage said:


> Hey guys - I bought received some Ken Rad VT 231's during the week. They were awful and really dry and harsh for the first 2 listening sessions. I thought that id made a huge mistake buying them but last nights listening session was really enjoyable. It seems that they just needed some time to settle. Sounding brilliant at the moment. Loving the sound stage.
> 
> I'm thinking of buying some TS mouse ears.... can anyone describe the differences between these two tubes so i have an idea of what I'm in for.
> 
> I'm using WA5 - yggy - HD800,,,, tubes - EML 300b, Brimar 5zg


 
 I am a big fan of the Ken Rad VT231.
  
 I have a TS Mouse Ear, but I have not listened to it enough to make a comparison


----------



## jamato8

whirlwind said:


> I am a big fan of the Ken Rad VT231.
> 
> I have a TS Mouse Ear, but I have not listened to it enough to make a comparison


 

 The KR VT231 are a great tube. The TS mouse ear, which I also have, is so-so. Some like them ok, some not.


----------



## magiccabbage

Cheers for the info guys. So I'm looking to build up a bit of a collection and am wondering what 6sn7 to get next. I have the KR VT's and the TS 6f8g with adapers. I will eventually get a pair of TSRP but will hold off for now. 
  
 Im wondering what the Sylvania VT 231 are like compared to the KR. Ill check the reference thread now


----------



## r one

Sylvania and Ken Rad are opposite for me. the first for treble lovers and the second for the bass lovers.


----------



## dminches

r one said:


> Sylvania and Ken Rad are opposite for me. the first for treble lovers and the second for the bass lovers.




That's been my experience too.


----------



## magiccabbage

Ill have to own both so - how much do the sylvania's go for? 
  
 I have a few other questions as well hopefully you guys can help me out. 
  
 1. What 6sn7 would produce the largest soundstage? 
 2. What is the quietest 6sn7 that you have come across? 
 3. What do you think is the best current production 6sn7? 
  
  
 These are more than likely answered in the reference thread but i thought id ask here as well just to see. working my way through the other thread at the moment. 
  
 Paddy


----------



## gibosi

Among Sylvanias, I like the 6SN7W the best. There are three versions, short and tall, with black base, and tall with metal base. They all share a similar sound signature, although to my ears, the short has better bass detail and the tall ones, a bit more bass slam. As most buyers tend to go after the metal-base tube, the black-base versions are often overlooked and sometimes can be found for around $50.
  
 Below, short base Sylvania 6SN7W, heavy chrome, black T-plates and one free-standing support rod between the top and bottom mica spacers.
  

  
 Also, in addition to the 6SN7 reference thread, there is a companion thread, the 6SN7 Identification thread, which can be very useful when looking at pictures of tubes that are for sale.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide


----------



## Johnnysound

gibosi said:


> Among Sylvanias, I like the 6SN7W the best. There are three versions, short and tall, with black base, and tall with metal base. They all share a similar sound signature, although to my ears, the short has better bass detail and the tall ones, a bit more bass slam. As most buyers tend to go after the metal-base tube, the black-base versions are often overlooked and sometimes can be found for around $50.
> 
> Below, short base Sylvania 6SN7W, heavy chrome, black T-plates and one free-standing support rod between the top and bottom mica spacers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Johnnysound

Hi Gibosi, its been a long time since the LD MkIII mods forum !! I have just a few 6sn7s, nothing compared with your vast collection, but the LDIII modified with "endgame" Siemens C3Gs at the front is surely an excellent tool to evaluate the sound of 6sn7s as output tubes. Moreover, I am using it mainly as a preamp with SS amps, so conditions are of course a bit different than in HP duties. I have some nice CBS Hytrons from the fifties, Sylvania 6SN7GB chrome domes late fifties, some NOS RCA, a pair of Tungsrams which in fact are rebranded old russian tubes, and a couple of ITT 6SN7GTBs black plates, rebranded Toshiba tubes, my favorites by far. With high resolution music, the differences stand out, and perhaps the Toshiba is better known for its strong bass, but the highs are also to die for, it is balanced from top to bottom, and maybe what set it apart from the others is its dynamic, fast, organic sound, and a 3D quality that is simply addictive. No wonder it appears in the 6SN7 Reference forum, Folks with MUCH more experience than me, it is getting a bit difficult to find at fair prices, but believe me, it belongs at the very top...


----------



## gibosi

How about a picture of this ITT/Toshiba? All the Toshiba's I've seen have gray plates. But I have seen Hitachi with black plates
  
 http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/6SN7/6SN7.htm#6SN7TOSHIBA
  
 http://www.zzxm.narod.ru/FOTO/TUBES/6sn7.jpg


----------



## Skylab

I actually think the Hitachi black plate 6SN7GTB is a nice tube.


----------



## Johnnysound

You are absolutely right Gibosi, ITTs are definitely Hitachis, not Toshibas. Apart from the plate color, the tubes look identical to me. So, never heard a "true" Toshiba, but from other coments, the sonic signature looks very much the same as the Hitachi. Obviously, the two japanese factories shared the same design. I doubt that the plate color makes any difference in sound, unless there is some technical reason unknown to me...


----------



## gibosi

Of course, the color of the plates is meaningless in regard to sound. But plate color often serves to allow one to visually distinguish one tube from another. Any sonic differences between the Hitachi and Toshiba are due to their having been manufactured in different factories using different production equipment and materials.


----------



## Johnnysound

Well, there are some other differences, three hole plates in the Toshibas vs two in the Hitachi, and a different support structure for the top micas, but...


----------



## gibosi

johnnysound said:


> Well, there are some other differences, three hole plates in the Toshibas vs two in the Hitachi, and a different support structure for the top micas, but...


 
  
 Just because tubes look similar, this is no guarantee that they will sound similar. For example, compare the early 1950's CBS/Hytron and Sylvania 6SN7GT with bottom getter. They look very similar, but they do not sound the same: Different factories owned by different companies.
  
 Or compare European Philips tubes. An ECC40 manufactured in their Hamburg, Germany, factory looks identical to one manufactured in Eindhoven, Holland. In fact, as both were Philips subsidiaries, it is likely that some parts and subassemblies were identical. However, these tubes to not sound the same either.
  
 For those who might be curious, the ECC40, with an adapter, is a drop-in replacement for a 6SN7 in many applications.


----------



## Johnnysound

Yes, of course, the only way to know for sure is to get a pair of Toshibas and compare them directly to the Hitachis. But this is a very expensive and also hard to find tube ! I dont know why, maybe it is very rare...any suggestions ?


----------



## gibosi

johnnysound said:


> Yes, of course, the only way to know for sure is to get a pair of Toshibas and compare them directly to the Hitachis. But this is a very expensive and also hard to find tube ! I dont know why, maybe it is very rare...any suggestions ?


 
  
 These Raytheon, made in Japan by Toshiba, pop up every so often..


----------



## Johnnysound

Thanks Gibosi, I discovered from Ebay that Raytheons labeled "Uniline" at the base, or " Raytheon International" in the glass are all Toshibas, grey plates. Also, post 2795 from Skylab(2012) shows a pair of "Selectron" branded 6SN7GTBs, also Toshiba made... that he got for $7 each !! Now this is a good deal.


----------



## Shaffer

johnnysound said:


> Thanks Gibosi, I discovered from Ebay that Raytheons labeled "Uniline" at the base, or " Raytheon International" in the glass are all Toshibas, grey plates. Also, post 2795 from Skylab(2012) shows a pair of "Selectron" branded 6SN7GTBs, also Toshiba made... that he got for $7 each !! Now this is a good deal.




Kinda ironic, as I've always bypassed those tubes, and now I'm going to start looking for them. Gotta love the tube game.


----------



## larcenasb

Hi, can anyone verify for me that this tube is the Sylvania 6SN7GT 1951-1953 'Bad Boy'. I got this tube as part of a lot for cheap and immediately recognized the plate structure -- but the base is shorter than any other Bad Boy I've seen, and of course, there is no print showing "Sylvania" anywhere. I'd like to be thorough and scientific to know as sure as I can. Thanks for any info and take care.


----------



## isquirrel

It more likely than not, just compared it to my pair and the plate structure and top and bottom mica's are the same. Could be a cheap copy. The inner flashings either indicate that it is either brand new, or there is something wrong there. Sorry can't help any further.


----------



## ericr

Maybe a RCA Canada tube as seen here:


http://www.tubemaze.info/rca-6sn7gtb-black-t-plates-canada/

How does it sound?


----------



## Johnnysound

gibosi said:


> These Raytheon, made in Japan by Toshiba, pop up every so often..



6
Thanks for the great tip,G. Found a pair like the ones in the pic, in pretty good shape for $ 8.50 each plus shipping. Will see how they compare to the Hitachis. A tough rival for shure.


----------



## larcenasb

Thanks for the input isquirrel and ericr, that link is quite definitive. It's intriguing how the plate structure is virtually the same as the Bad Boy's. Could Sylvania maybe have sold their design to RCA?


----------



## bigtube

Has any one done the Listening tests between a smoke glass VT231 KEN RAD and a clear glass VT231 KEN-RAD ?
 They should sound the same. The black cote was there so the germans could not see the lit up radio tubes.
 thanks Rick


----------



## gibosi

bigtube said:


> Has any one done the Listening tests between a smoke glass VT231 KEN RAD and a clear glass VT231 KEN-RAD ?
> They should sound the same. The black cote was there so the germans could not see the lit up radio tubes.
> thanks Rick


 
  
 From the 6SN7 Reference Thread (http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread)
  
 As long as they both have staggered plates, they are identical.


----------



## Stereolab42

bigtube said:


> Has any one done the Listening tests between a smoke glass VT231 KEN RAD and a clear glass VT231 KEN-RAD ?
> They should sound the same. The black cote was there so the germans could not see the lit up radio tubes.
> thanks Rick


 
  
 Yeah, I have both and they sound the same. I didn't know that was the reason for the black coating. That's awesome.


----------



## gibosi

bigtube said:


> ......The black cote was there so the germans could not see the lit up radio tubes.


 
  
 It's a great story, but I doubt it.... 
  
 Rather, from the 6SN7 Identification thread (http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide):
  
 "A note on glass colour (‘smoked’ glass tubes)
  
 Tubes with black or grey glass were only made en-masse till the early 1950s, after that they become vanishingly rare. What happened?
 The black/grey coat was a carbon/graphite coat, designed to prevent electrons from massing on the glass and exerting an undue influence on tube operation (massed negative charges).
  
 Whether its eventual disappearance was the result of cost-cutting measures, or the introduction of new glass that was somehow resistant to this electron massing is unknown."


----------



## Mechans1

I have bought several true bad boys the  way you may have.  It looks good to me but, Look for the EIA code number for  Sylvania which is 312 by itself or in a larger set of numbers.  Here is the reference I found for this.
 Recently I was able to buy the 6SN7s that were from the same lot of tubes that led to the original Bad Boy nick name - an Australian 6SN7 addict called them those Bad Boys in some article I believe. Yes I believe Len the guy that sold them to me. After trying them out and being satisfied of their quality I have put them away and just look at them every so often.  That is the problem with any special tube.  You want to use them but not use them up.  I have a number of other examples of the Bad Boy in full Sylvania regalia so I can hear them safely if I so desire.
 Anyway check out this reference for help in tube identification.
  
http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm
  
 Good Luck


----------



## bigtube

I'm not saying the guy up there is all wrong about why the tubes were blacked out. But world war II was over too.
 thanks


----------



## whirlwind

Just got a few new arrivals today.
  
 Some 12SN7GT that I got a great deal on.


----------



## r one

Are they 6sn7 equivalent ?


----------



## MIKELAP

r one said:


> Are they 6sn7 equivalent ?


 
 They are 12v. tubes 6SN7 are  6V


----------



## whirlwind

r one said:


> Are they 6sn7 equivalent ?


 
 They sound the same as the 6volt versions of the same tubes...you just need an amp that can use the 12 volt versions.


----------



## silentmoon

I have some nice pairs of 6h8c Mel-z from Soviet Union, which is one the the best kind of 6sn7 i've ever tried


----------



## Stereolab42

silentmoon said:


> I have some nice pairs of 6h8c Mel-z from Soviet Union, which is one the the best kind of 6sn7 i've ever tried


 
  
 Agree completely. I have a bunch from, I think, 1958. They are not the ultra-expensive ones with holes in the plate, but the proletariat flavor (like the ones in your pictures). And they sound great. I think NOS Soviet tubes are severely underrated.


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> Are they 6sn7 equivalent ?


 

 12 volt versions are often quieter. Then there is the 12SX7, which is a very good tube.


----------



## r one

I don't think that my amp works with 12v version of 6sn7 .


----------



## G600

Just a question of adapting it.
 Glenn can fix that for sure.


----------



## silentmoon

stereolab42 said:


> Agree completely. I have a bunch from, I think, 1958. They are not the ultra-expensive ones with holes in the plate, but the proletariat flavor (like the ones in your pictures). And they sound great. I think NOS Soviet tubes are severely underrated.


 
 I've tried many 6SN7s and i was over suprised by the sound of these Russian tubbies. In short, they're like Cognac, strong, impressive, addictive, sweet in the low-mid while carry an airy top-end. Bass is full-bodied, strong and melodious.


----------



## Mechans1

bigtube said:


> Has any one done the Listening tests between a smoke glass VT231 KEN RAD and a clear glass VT231 KEN-RAD ?
> They should sound the same. The black cote was there so the germans could not see the lit up radio tubes.
> thanks Rick


 

 Yes I have and they sound alike, it is just style beyond that.  Black, grey , graphite etc. just look cool vs clear and I think you pay an unspoken  premium for them.


----------



## whirlwind

In my amp, most old 6SN7 sound superb.....some better than others maybe....but all have sounded wonderful.


----------



## Mechans1

I have to share my enthusiasm for the 6SN7 tonight. I was trying a 6SN7 in my Ember.  I picked a treasured, old favorite of mine an early Sylvania GT that has a structure very near that of a W.  It is one beautiful sounding tube, it blew all the other stuff I have tried so far, out of the water!
 These tubes are indeed civilian versions of the W simply referred to as a Sylvania 6SN7GT.  They were well before the bottom getter Syl. GT, (think Bad Boy.)  They are difficult to find, I bought this one about 10 years ago when I hadn't much of a collection of the 6SN7s. Little did I know that a serious tube addiction would pop up.  I have not found another top  getter true chrome dome GT. I have quite a few Ws and other bottom getter GTs I'll keep looking despite having an insane surplus of many other great 6SN7s.


----------



## r one

Sylvania 6sn7w is the last star tube that I haven't. Price for a nib is delirious.


----------



## gibosi

Quote: 





r one said:


> Sylvania 6sn7w is the last star tube that I haven't. Price for a nib is delirious.


 
  
 NOS/NIB tubes are typically very expensive, especially those most sought after. That said, I have picked up several of the small-bottle 6SN7W that measure new, or close to it, for around $50 each.
  

  
 There are three versions of the Sylvania 6SN7W, small bottle with black base, tall bottle with black base and tall bottle with metal base. The metal base versions are the most sought after, but to my ears, I can detect no difference between the two tall-bottle versions. The small-bottle sounds very similar, however, I think the bass has better detail but a bit less slam than the tall bottles.
  
 Also, it is not uncommon to find these tubes relabeled as Philco, Delco and so on.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Mechans1

Yes the NIB Ws are expensive but you can be more affordable if you are OK with short bottles and the non metal base.   In fact there are  other ways of getting the Ws performance and appearance if you look for certain  Sylvania early GTAs.  Just look for the heavy flashing/gettering and the 3 rivet T plates.  They aren't as fancy as regular Ws perhaps, the box is now irrelevant, and you can't sell them them as Ws but that is what they are structurally. So you can get to hear them and use them any way you want without the inherent  guilt of burning up a collectors item.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> Yes the NIB Ws are expensive but you can be more affordable if you are OK with short bottles and the non metal base.   In fact there are  other ways of getting the Ws performance and appearance if you look for certain  Sylvania early GTAs.  Just look for the heavy flashing/gettering and the 3 rivet T plates.  They aren't as fancy as regular Ws perhaps, the box is now irrelevant, and you can't sell them them as Ws but that is what they are structurally. So you can get to hear them and use them any way you want without the inherent  guilt of burning up a collectors item.


 
  
 Construction-wise, the early small-bottle Sylvania 6SN7GT(A) chrome domes, manufactured in the late 1940's and early 1950's, with three-rivet T-plates, look to be identical to the small-bottle 6SN7W, manufactured in the mid-1940's, with the exception of the free-standing copper support rod. But to my ears, while they sound very similar, they are not identical. Of course, YMMV.


----------



## r one

thanks a lot four your advices. I have to go hunting them. But since 4 months i'm so happy with Fivre 6SN7gt that i don't think to change, but my curiosity ...


----------



## r one

one thing I've always wanted to know but we never clearly told me.

 How many hours can work a NOS 6Sn7 when it's use as preamp. Not in theory (for example red base 5692=10 000hours) but in practice? Share me your experience please


----------



## Mechans1

Good question:
 In practice I have never worn one out.  I usually rolled them around.  In some instances, in real life, I have gotten weak tubes already used up, teetering on failure or shorting. 
 So back to theory then sorry , the 5692 supposedly 10,000hr. is that 2Xor 3X normal?  Most other pre-amp tubes last no more then 5,000 unless a special designation like the Mullard 10M  series, (another 10,000 hour tube). I am sure it must depend on what the tube is being used for/being .consumed by?  Even then  as a guess no less than 2,500 hrs.  but I am really  hoping someone who knows will jump in and correct me. I might ask on another forum if this doesn't yield much.


----------



## novaca

silentmoon said:


> I have some nice pairs of 6h8c Mel-z from Soviet Union, which is one the the best kind of 6sn7 i've ever tried


 
 Interestingly. Can you describe the sound signature (perhaps against the Bad Boys and Ken Rad or other generally known)?
 Thanks


----------



## abvolt

woo audio commented on that once they said between 3-5000 hours on average..


----------



## ericr

gibosi said:


> NOS/NIB tubes are typically very expensive, especially those most sought after. That said, I have picked up several of the small-bottle 6SN7W that measure new, or close to it, for around $50 each.
> 
> [COLOR=FF4400]
> [/COLOR]
> ...




Bought one just like that and loved it so much I've just bought two more!


----------



## ericr

mechans1 said:


> Yes the NIB Ws are expensive but you can be more affordable if you are OK with short bottles and the non metal base.   In fact there are  other ways of getting the Ws performance and appearance if you look for certain  Sylvania early GTAs.  Just look for the heavy flashing/gettering and the 3 rivet T plates.  They aren't as fancy as regular Ws perhaps, the box is now irrelevant, and you can't sell them them as Ws but that is what they are structurally. So you can get to hear them and use them any way you want without the inherent  guilt of burning up a collectors item.







gibosi said:


> Construction-wise, the early small-bottle Sylvania 6SN7GT(A) chrome domes, manufactured in the late 1940's and early 1950's, with three-rivet T-plates, look to be identical to the small-bottle 6SN7W, manufactured in the mid-1940's, with the exception of the free-standing copper support rod. But to my ears, while they sound very similar, they are not identical. Of course, YMMV.




First, the 6SN7W short bottle seems to always have T plates - where some non "W" short bottle chrome domes are T plates and others are V or angled plates. The angled plates are my least favorite.

Also, as far as I can tell (the flashing makes it difficult to be 100% sure) the true 6SN7W short bottle is unique in construction with only two wholes / rivets. If you look at the picture posted by @gibosi above the lower hole is just above the lowest ladder rung on the plates. With all of the other short bottle chrome domes I've seen the lower hole is below the lowest ladder rung on the plates.

After buying 8 or so of the short bottle chrome domes tubes, some of the earlier ones with T plates come close to the 6SN7W (not the gta so much). THough by watching / bidding patiently I bought 3 of the 6SN7W for just around $40 per and at that price consider them a better value than any of my other short bottle chrome domes purchases bym


----------



## r one

abvolt said:


> woo audio commented on that once they said between 3-5000 hours on average..


 

 Tube during life is not a scientific reality but i'm happy to read that.


----------



## r one

just bought that for listen to the sylvania sound. I haven't heard a Sylvania yet . This is a Gty Cv1988. What do you think about ?


----------



## Skylab

That's a nice tube - it's a Sylvania VT-231. I highly doubt that's the original box for that tube, however.


----------



## r one

If you have to compare it with the 6sn7 w it's a later production I think ? It will sound very different ?


----------



## Skylab

Different, yes, but not all that different. The Sylvania VT-231 pictured there is a truly excellent tube, IMO. Does everything pretty well and doesn't do anything poorly. Balanced, nuanced, and robust.


----------



## r one

Great ! I will compare to my others 6sn7 and 6f8g. Good game for my Christmas Holidays .


----------



## Mechans1

r one said:


> just bought that for listen to the sylvania sound. I haven't heard a Sylvania yet . This is a Gty Cv1988. What do you think about ?


 
 I am certain this is not a GTY CV1988, It is A bottom getter Sylvania GT which were made for the military thus the  VT-231 designation.  It was used by the military part number, and made by other manufacturers not just Sylvania. I am looking right now at a JAN CKR which you know is Ken Rad and has VT-231 on the base. The tube was also made for civilian use and was simply called a Sylvania GT.
 The GTY CV-1988 was made by Brimar had black glass and a brown micanol base.  They usually had other code on them sometimes on top and side of the glass and the base.   AFAIK it was produced by Brimar  only.


----------



## r one

Sure it's not a CV 1988 which was an european denomination and I think that the seller have noticed that to explain equivalent. For price (20 $) I don't risk anything.


----------



## gibosi

Picked up an interesting tube here the other day. It appears to be a very early version of the Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Mouse Ears", 1949, if the sticker is to be believed. But the shape of the side bracing micas are not circular as is normal. Also, the plates are a little darker in color and there are heat radiators attached to the grid posts above the top mica spacer.
  
 I am pleased to report that it lights up and plays, but haven't had it long enough to compare it to a standard "Mouse Ears."


----------



## Mechans1

gibosi said:


> Picked up an interesting tube here the other day. It appears to be a very early version of the Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Mouse Ears", 1949, if the sticker is to be believed. But the shape of the side bracing micas are not circular as is normal. Also, the plates are a little darker in color and there are heat radiators attached to the grid posts above the top mica spacer.
> 
> I am pleased to report that it lights up and plays, but haven't had it long enough to compare it to a standard "Mouse Ears."
> 
> ...


----------



## Mechans1

I have to admit you are quite right about the 3 rivets not present on the T plates of Ws or the early GTA Chrome Dome T plate tubes which have 2 rivets in every example I have (a decent number).  I had read that the early GT Chrome Dome  not GTAs,  top getter GTs original 1940s Chrome Domes now- were indeed  the civilian name of  actual W  construction.  I have both and should not lazy and look.  I stand corrected about the addition of the extra support, rod found in  Ws but not in the early GTAs.
  These 2 tubes tubes can be very loudly microphonic despite their rugged construction.  Microphonics is a problem for some people but I find if I don't play drums on my tubes while listening to music they are otherwise wonderful tubes in many instances.  If microphonic at rest or  with  feedback then those extreme examples are unusable. I thought I might as well open a new can of beans to discuss.  It is appropriate because 6SN7s in particular GTs are highly prone to microphonics.


----------



## r one

Just pick up two others fivre nos 6sn7gt today . love so much this one. So i have 4 for spare parts.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> Picked up an interesting tube here the other day. It appears to be a very early version of the Tung-Sol 6SN7GT "Mouse Ears", 1949, if the sticker is to be believed. But the shape of the side bracing micas are not circular as is normal. Also, the plates are a little darker in color and there are heat radiators attached to the grid posts above the top mica spacer.
> 
> I am pleased to report that it lights up and plays, but haven't had it long enough to compare it to a standard "Mouse Ears."


 
 i am a big fan of the tung sol mouse ear.....I really like it and listen with it a lot....i need to get a couple more...great tube, love the tone.


----------



## Mechans1

I am telling you that there are Tung Sole GTs straight sided with gray boxy plates like a mouse ear with no ears..  I find this to be a really good tube far exceeding my expectations with a really clean and pure sound neither warm or cold tube, that is to my ears neutral. To my ears and a few other people into audio tubes who share my description of its 'neutral' sound.   Any who find this tube I recommend you buy it if reasonable. They are  a sleeper  of sorts with its famous round plates and mice ear  mica brothers distracting the prices for those collectiable , creating a nice hole with its distracting this tube which is generally ignored and can be bought at low prices comparatively in any event..  What is reasonable is defined entirely by the buyer's  definition of value.  I can't tell others to buy at this price, or that price, unless taken to the absurd like they were offered WE 300Bs $10/tube.


----------



## gibosi

Your experience mirrors what's written in the 6SN7 Reference thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 Black or gray ribbed T-plates, round mouse ears, square mouse ears or none, they are all the same tube.
  
 And after having listened to the one I just picked up and comparing it to one with round mouse ears, I can verify that it too is the same tube.
  
 Like Whirlwind, I think it is a terrific tube, especially for the money. When I am asked to recommend the best cheap 6SN7, this is the first one that comes to my mind.


----------



## dminches

Our friend Stavros loves the mouse ears!


----------



## whirlwind

These arrived today


----------



## r one

These ecc32 beauties are made by ?


----------



## whirlwind

r one said:


> These ecc32 beauties are made by ?


 
 They are Mullard ECC 31


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> These ecc32 beauties are made by ?


 
  
 Only Mullard manufactured the ECC32, which is in fact a slightly modified ECC31, which also was manufactured only by Mullard.


----------



## abvolt

whirlwind said:


> These arrived today


 
  
 I've also got a couple pairs of those the ecc31's are one of my favorite driver tubes just great sounding..enjoy


----------



## r one

gibosi said:


> Only Mullard manufactured the ECC32, which is in fact a slightly modified ECC31, which also was manufactured only by Mullard.



And are they 6sn7 compatible?


----------



## RomRom

r one said:


> And are they 6sn7 compatible?


 
  
For ECC31 you will need an adapter.


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> And are they 6sn7 compatible?


 
  
 First, like the ECC32, the ECC31 draws 1.0 Amp of heater current. So if your amp can handle the ECC32, then yes, it is compatible. However, as RomRom pointed out, you will need an adapter. For example:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-ECC31-6N7G-TO-6SN7-CV181-B65-ECC32-ECC33-tube-converter-adapter-/201134198992
  
 As an added benefit, this adapter will also allow you to roll 6N7 which are cheap and often quite good.


----------



## r one

Thank you for this great news.I think that the Balancing Act can works with ecc32 tubes (and ecc35 too : I have one mullard ). A new world of investigation come to me.


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> Thank you for this great news.I think that the Balancing Act can works with ecc32 tubes (and ecc35 too : I have one mullard ). A new world of investigation come to me.


 
  
 There are three versions of the 6N7: the 6N7G (the oldest) with shouldered coke bottles, the 6N7GT with straight glass bottles and 6N7 with metal bottles. They are all the same electrically. Have fun!


----------



## MIKELAP




----------



## Frihed89

I'm through collecting!  It's not a big collection, but it's quite varied, including 6SN7GT electrical equivalents.  With a few exceptions, I don't like the A or B models.  Tungsol B's are pretty nice, but a bit on the lean side.  Myfavorites are the Raytheon 6SN7GT T plates (and flatplates with the brass support rod) and the Sylvania 6SN7W metal base.  The 7N7 with an adapter also makes an excellent driver in my 300B amplifier.
  
 Will this thread ever end?


----------



## Mechans1

frihed89 said:


> I'm through collecting!  It's not a big collection, but it's quite varied, including 6SN7GT electrical equivalents.  With a few exceptions, I don't like the A or B models.  Tungsol B's are pretty nice, but a bit on the lean side.  Myfavorites are the Raytheon 6SN7GT T plates (and flatplates with the brass support rod) and the Sylvania 6SN7W metal base.  The 7N7 with an adapter also makes an excellent driver in my 300B amplifier.
> 
> Will this thread ever end?


 

 Is this all you are going to try !? Why stop now when there are so many great tubes out there to collect? In a way,  I wish I had the resolve and stopped after owning a limited number  tubes.  I really do think you should add a Ken Rad of any color glass with staggered plates, for  it's bass  quantity and quality.  Another tube to add, might be an inherently quick sounding tube like a Hytron GT, or a Sylvania WGT, not the WGTA which just aren't as good both have a brown base.  My favorite 6SN7  depending on how I feel that day is the Brimar CV1988, for it's fantastic 3D staging.  There are others of course, e.g. Tung Sol GT round plate, which is why I can assert categorically that no, this does not end, not for most people anyway.
 If you think this is bad, how about rolling 300bs?


----------



## MrCurwen

I like the 6SN7. I use it a lot, mostly because it is cheap and plentiful. My favourite is the russian 6N8S, because it is very cheap and very durable. Unused old production is easy to get. Prime stuff.
  
 The 2C22 is the best performing 6SN7 variant. Some dislike the top caps, I like them aesthetically.
  
 For maximum aesthetics, I go for the precursor of the 6SN7 family, the 76 with it's beautiful ST envelope. Mu of 14 is still ok for most balanced circuits.
  
 This family of tubes is very useable in my opinion because
  
 1) The mu is not low, not high. I like to design so that there's no extra gain, rather just enough. Medium mu is best for that. Too much gain often leads to stability problems, and they're not fun to deal with.
  
 2) Plate resistance is not low, not high. Although it is low enough for a balanced output stage for headphones, it's not so low as to require a lot of current for a decent op point.
  
 3) Twin triode. Easy for balanced circuits.
  
 4) Not prone to oscillation, like some high gm russian tubes that have beautiful curves, but can be a pain to work with.
  
 5) Very large (russian) NOS supplies, also still in production.


 All in all easy to design into a circuit.


----------



## jamato8

My favorite that predates and is the grandfather/mother to the 6SN7 is the 27 and specifically the Sylvania mesh plate of 1929 to 1932. I have a few NOS but others that test and sound like NOS. The 76 was a favorite for a long time, the RCA black plate but biased to max and run at the max plate voltage. No 6SN7 other types can match the 27 mesh plate though, IMO, the fine mesh, not course. 
  
 --------
  
 What 6N7's are liked?


----------



## MrCurwen

The 27 and even the 26 are good tubes, but in my opinion not very useable.
  
 The 27 globe envelope is very beautiful, but I reserve it for aesthetics vanity builds and 1930's theremin instrument builds.
  
 Mu of 8 is not very useable anymore, and the heating is difficult with that high a current. Also plate resistance is just a bit higher, preventing use as an output tube for balanced headphone amp.


----------



## RomRom

Still looking for a nice matched pair of Mullard ECC35 brown base.
 Well, what difference do you guys hear, between tall and short base?


----------



## jamato8

mrcurwen said:


> The 27 and even the 26 are good tubes, but in my opinion not very useable.
> 
> The 27 globe envelope is very beautiful, but I reserve it for aesthetics vanity builds and 1930's theremin instrument builds.
> 
> Mu of 8 is not very useable anymore, and the heating is difficult with that high a current. Also plate resistance is just a bit higher, preventing use as an output tube for balanced headphone amp.


 

 Don't agree. I have used the 27 a lot and once you have built the right circuit for it, it shines and IMO, above most any other tube and I have it balanced in my pramp that I built. In the same preamp I built in biasing, control over the heater from 2.5 volts up at any current demand, and varying plate voltages all with dual power supplies that are dual regulated and dual tube rectified, each. But in general, not practical for most. :^)


----------



## MrCurwen

Like I said, it's a good tube with nicely linear curves, so good results can be had. My other comments about it were about the general useability of it. Like you you said, it's not practical for most.
  
 In most systems, you'd need two gain stages with a mu = 8 tube. That is not practical in my opinion.


----------



## jamato8

mrcurwen said:


> Like I said, it's a good tube with nicely linear curves, so good results can be had. My other comments about it were about the general useability of it. Like you you said, it's not practical for most.
> 
> In most systems, you'd need two gain stages with a mu = 8 tube. That is not practical in my opinion.


 

 I use one stage into a specially made output transformer. Incredible sound. I started the preamp with 3 tubes per side, then 2 and finalized it after 2 years or work to 1, working on bias, plate voltages to all tubes all the while. A lot has to do with the PS that is a pure DC and plenty of it in reserve and R/L/C/L/C/L. I will take a good L loaded tube vs resistor. As the field collapses on an inductor you maintain so I find dynamics and everything else is so much better. 
  
 Anyway back to the 6SN7. I still enjoy the round plate VT99 or the Tung-sol round plate. I sometimes find the 1952 Sylvania a bit edgy and unnatural.


----------



## Mechans1

Gentlemen,
 This thread is about 6SN7s and the addiction to collecting and using them. Can we return to the reason for this thread in the first place or should I suggest using another 4 pin tube. 
 I don't mean to be obnoxious but I am a collector of other things, besides 6SN7 and several other tubes.  About NOS I teach my son when we go looking for collectibles  that condition is crucial and that junk when  new is new junk,  when it becomes old, it is old junk.  I will leave it at that.
 What kind of amps are you building- SETs  you  should put a 6SN7 in them somewhere a driver perhaps ? It sounds like 6SN7s are the Goldilocks of the tube world, not too much and not too little.
 Are  you actually burning through them, I was under the impression that they can take most electrical insults.


----------



## jamato8

mechans1 said:


> Gentlemen,
> This thread is about 6SN7s and the addiction to collecting and using them. Can we return to the reason for this thread in the first place or should I suggest using another 4 pin tube.
> I don't mean to be obnoxious but I am a collector of other things, besides 6SN7 and several other tubes.  About NOS I teach my son when we go looking for collectibles  that condition is crucial and that junk when  new is new junk,  when it becomes old, it is old junk.  I will leave it at that.
> What kind of amps are you building- SETs  you  should put a 6SN7 in them somewhere a driver perhaps ? It sounds like 6SN7s are the Goldilocks of the tube world, not too much and not too little.
> Are  you actually burning through them, I was under the impression that they can take most electrical insults.


 

 They have have operating parameters. Not what kind of electrical insults you mean. Some will lose their musical quality fast if not used within bias at certain voltages etc and some like to operate tubes at low heater voltages, thinking this will extend the life but this can cathode strip. But it is a hardy tube and a tube made in huge quantities. Addictions can be so much fun. lol


----------



## r one

For a nos 6sn7 which make a little fffffffffff background noise is there something to do, a tip or something else ? Or I must consider that it is definitely sad or dead ?


----------



## MrCurwen

Things you can do outside the chassis are pretty nonexistent, maybe clean the pins and make sure it's plugged in all the way and tight. Tipping the glass is not a good idea.


----------



## r one

I have already cleaned the pins and they are in perfect condition. Connection is tight in the amp. Unforntunately it's my favorite 6sn7 and I think there is no issue.


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> For a nos 6sn7 which make a little fffffffffff background noise is there something to do, a tip or something else ? Or I must consider that it is definitely sad or dead ?


 
  
 Have you run it for 20 hours or so? Tubes typically quiet down after a long burn. Also, the noise might be due to extraneous RF from cell phones, electrical motors or what have you. And some tubes are simply more sensitive to this interference than others....


----------



## Mechans1

r one said:


> For a nos 6sn7 which make a little fffffffffff background noise is there something to do, a tip or something else ? Or I must consider that it is definitely sad or dead ?





> Sadly this does sound like a potential  case of tube hissss  for which  there is  no known cure. If it gets worse  that's  it !


----------



## r one

gibosi said:


> Have you run it for 20 hours or so? Tubes typically quiet down after a long burn. Also, the noise might be due to extraneous RF from cell phones, electrical motors or what have you. And some tubes are simply more sensitive to this interference than others....



It's not an interférence kind of sound or bzzzzzz noise. I already have this kind of problem with national union 6f8g and the background noise never stop . it's a nos fivre and i will run few hours more today.


----------



## MrCurwen

if it's a hiss kind of noise, there's two possibilities.

1) The heater - cathode insulation is leaking

2) The tube is causing the circuit to oscillate at radio frequency, and the hiss is the audio envelope of that oscillation.

Both common, first out of old age of tube, and second out of poor circuit design.


----------



## r one

I do not think that the circuit is faulty.
 As Mechans say, it is a possibility with such old products. I have 3 other identical fivre 6SN7 which are perfectly silent. This is unfortunate but not serious and after a second listen of many hours, if this hissss sound persist i will try to have an arrangement with the seller to refund it.


----------



## Currawong

Not my photo but the one from the eBay auction -- the 6N8S MELZ just arrived and I plugged it into my Studio Six, replacing the GE 5692. Very nice synergy with the Brimar 6V6GTs. I've been wanting just a touch more air to the sound and this just about nails it.


----------



## d4rkch1ld

Badass looking tube.


----------



## whirlwind

currawong said:


> Not my photo but the one from the eBay auction -- the 6N8S MELZ just arrived and I plugged it into my Studio Six, replacing the GE 5692. Very nice synergy with the Brimar 6V6GTs. I've been wanting just a touch more air to the sound and this just about nails it.


 
 Great looking tube....sounds like something i would not mind trying, also.
  
 Looking on e-bay , I do not see one with this construction...but I will keep an eye out.


----------



## Mechans1

Is the photo, the tube you are using?  I was told by an old tube rolling friend that these hole plate tubes are the ones to get, if you want any Russian 6SN7 at all. My experience with them is limited because I was put off by the Electro-Harmonix  6SN7 that came in my first modern tube amp.  I rolled that out and never put it back.   I have to decide if its worth investing in yet  another tube I am not using. 
 For really good air and openness there are several tubes that come to mind.  A Sylvania W and bottom getter GTs should give you good top end, the other tube that comes to mind is the Hytron  pre CBS if possibl;e. Good Luck with this one, looking good


----------



## jamato8

whirlwind said:


> Great looking tube....sounds like something i would not mind trying, also.
> 
> Looking on e-bay , I do not see one with this construction...but I will keep an eye out.


 
 I see the construction on eBay but not in black plate.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Those 6N8S MELZ are going for a pretty penny.
 Are they really an upgrade to what you can get for the same price?


----------



## Mechans1

I am almost certain the  Melz 6N8S description has been used for other Russian tubes.  It is the presence of the hole plates that is your guarantee that you are using the top dog. They are somewhat scarce and quite expensive.    I have heard good things about the New Sensor Tung Sol. ugh.so many tubes so little time.


----------



## Stereolab42

mechans1 said:


> I am almost certain the  Melz 6N8S description has been used for other Russian tubes.  It is the presence of the hole plates that is your guarantee that you are using the top dog. They are somewhat scarce and quite expensive.    I have heard good things about the New Sensor Tung Sol. ugh.so many tubes so little time.


 
  
 The ones with the holes in them can be the ultra-rare and ultra-expensive 1578 variant. I've never heard them and it's apparently difficult not to get ripped off when buying them. I've found the unholed 6N8S Melz from the 50s and 60s to be quite good, however, at very reasonable prices.


----------



## Currawong

Ditto about EH tubes, which have have been mixed. I tend to avoid Russian tubes. I was going through all the 6SN7 tube listings and some tube comparison blogs and sites and this one came up. Since single tubes tend to go for less, I thought I'd give it a go.
  
 I'm not sure it is really _better_ than the 5692. I think it sounds a bit less aggressive though, whereas the Tung Sol sounds a bit _too_ syrupy with the Brimars also in there. I tried the GE 6V6GTs in there again while the 5692 was in there, but it wasn't quite what I was after. Maybe the 5692 was not doing as good a job with the treble as I had thought, which is a PITA as I just bought a second one as a back-up.


----------



## jamato8

I have always found the 5692 a little dull sounding, which has to do with the upper frequency energy and lack of good bass control. The 5691 on the other hand, for a different circuit but the same type of tube, sounds very good. IMO  Also it is imperative to get them NOS as they can measure new but the energy the tube can impart to sound is gone if not run correctly.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Is the Ken Rad VT-231 still considered the best 6SN7 tube for adding bass thump/rumble?
 I want a tube that can add the most sub-bass.
  
 The list of reviewed in the 6SN7 reference thread is 11 years old.


----------



## r one

thenewguy007 said:


> Is the Ken Rad VT-231 still considered the best 6SN7 tube for adding bass thump/rumble?
> I want a tube that can add the most sub-bass.
> 
> The list of reviewed in the 6SN7 reference thread is 11 years old.


 

 I think you should try a 6F8G Flat Plate Tung Sol too.


----------



## Thenewguy007

r one said:


> I think you should try a 6F8G Flat Plate Tung Sol too.


 
  
 I have been reading through the thread so far.
  
 -Tung Sol 6SN7 BGRP are mentioned as among the best of the 6Sn7 tube, but are like $200 for a single one.
  
 -Then there was talk about the 7193 being better than any 6SN7 tube.
  
 -Lastly the talk seemed to be about the 6F8G as being superior to 6SN7?
  
  
 Anyone own a Ken-Rad 7193 & Tung-Sol 6F8G & made direct comparison between them?


----------



## jibzilla

mechans1 said:


> For really good air and openness there are several tubes that come to mind.  A Sylvania W and bottom getter GTs should give you good top end, the other tube that comes to mind is the Hytron  pre CBS if possibl;e. Good Luck with this one, looking good


 
  
 My 2 fav. 6sn7's. Very neutral yet still very extended. W's over pre cbs (fuller sound) but they are very hard to find not microphonic and almost always more expensive than the pre cbs.


----------



## r one

r one said:


> I do not think that the circuit is faulty.
> As Mechans say, it is a possibility with such old products. I have 3 other identical fivre 6SN7 which are perfectly silent. This is unfortunate but not serious and after a second listen of many hours, if this hissss sound persist i will try to have an arrangement with the seller to refund it.


 

  Damn, i'm not in chance. Yesterday, i decided to have a listen session with my TS Round plate (bought NIB and used 50 hours only)...it's not silent too and make this wind sound, i'm 100% sure that this tube was totally silent few months ago !!! I'm wonder if my eddie current amp would have any other problem like 6x4 tubes from power supply (3000 hours used approximatively) near dead .
 It's very strange, my other tubes are silent, and i'm really sure that my Vt231 rp's was it too.
 What do you think about ?


----------



## isquirrel

r one said:


> Damn, i'm not in chance. Yesterday, i decided to have a listen session with my TS Round plate (bought NIB and used 50 hours only)...it's not silent too and make this wind sound, i'm 100% sure that this tube was totally silent few months ago !!! I'm wonder if my eddie current amp would have any other problem like 6x4 tubes from power supply (3000 hours used approximatively) near dead .
> It's very strange, my other tubes are silent, and i'm really sure that my Vt231 rp's was it too.
> What do you think about ?


 

 When you take the tube out are there any noises coming from the inside? Are the pins clean and secure, does it match the other one in level ? 
  
 Could just be burn in, they take a while and are best left on for early long stretches and plenty of heat cycles to help with burn in and to get rid of any oxidation that may have built up over the years.


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> Damn, i'm not in chance. Yesterday, i decided to have a listen session with my TS Round plate (bought NIB and used 50 hours only)...it's not silent too and make this wind sound, i'm 100% sure that this tube was totally silent few months ago !!! I'm wonder if my eddie current amp would have any other problem like 6x4 tubes from power supply (3000 hours used approximatively) near dead .
> It's very strange, my other tubes are silent, and i'm really sure that my Vt231 rp's was it too.
> What do you think about ?


 

 Did you switch the 6SN7 positions? Does the sound follow the tube? They can get noisy sometimes. And sometimes it can get quiet again with some time on.


----------



## r one

No I didn't because I can't. My amp use only one 6sn7 for preamp . The power tubes are two PX4 triodes.


----------



## dminches

r one said:


> No I didn't because I can't. My amp use only one 6sn7 for preamp . The power tubes are two PX4 triodes.


 
  
 The issue you are having is similar to what i had with my Cary SLP-05. It was caused by the tube sockets not making good contact with the pins.


----------



## r one

Great news guys.
 I've changed today my rectifiers for NOS 6X4W Tung Sol and problem is resolved. Absolutely no wind sound, no _ffffffffff _in the backround : all is quiet again. I'm Happy.


----------



## silentmoon

currawong said:


> Not my photo but the one from the eBay auction -- the 6N8S MELZ just arrived and I plugged it into my Studio Six, replacing the GE 5692. Very nice synergy with the Brimar 6V6GTs. I've been wanting just a touch more air to the sound and this just about nails it.


 

  
 In Vietnam i have around 100 pcs of nos 6h8c mel-z


----------



## jamato8

silentmoon said:


> In Vietnam i have around 100 pcs of nos 6h8c mel-z


 

 Lucky you. :^)


----------



## tubesareus

Any significant sonic difference between * RCA 6SN7GT grey glass and  RCA JAN CRC 6SN7GT VT 231 grey glass ?*
*The later one is one of my favourites and there seems to be $30 to $60 gap between the  two.*


----------



## gibosi

tubesareus said:


> Any significant sonic difference between * RCA 6SN7GT grey glass and  RCA JAN CRC 6SN7GT VT 231 grey glass ?*
> *The later one is one of my favourites and there seems to be $30 to $60 gap between the  two.*


 
  
 They are identical. That is, if they were manufactured at the same time, they are identical. The labels are meaningless with respect to these tubes. Only the date of manufacture matters.


----------



## tubesareus

Thank you gibosi.
 I have done some reading about 6sn7 tubes in general but not to many sonic opinions between same manufacturers .
 I remember VT231 designation was stopped some time after war 1950?  so what would be a worthy replacement for that military RCA ?  how much do they change in sound in later productions ?


----------



## gibosi

I am not a connoisseur of the RCA 6SN7GT, so I can't say... Perhaps someone else will chime in? The best I can do is point you to the 6SN7 reference thread, on the chance you haven't seen it:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 In general, sonically speaking, 6SN7 manufactured beginning in the early 1940's and into the early 1950's are the best. But of course, this is only my opinion.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> I am not a connoisseur of the RCA 6SN7GT, so I can't say... Perhaps someone else will chime in? The best I can do is point you to the 6SN7 reference thread, on the chance you haven't seen it:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
> 
> In general, sonically speaking, 6SN7 manufactured beginning in the early 1940's and into the early 1950's are the best. But of course, this is only my opinion.




I had a pair of 1940's grey glass RCA 6SN7's that I didn't like very much. They seemed to be bass shy in my system.

Also have a pair of 1950's Ken Rad VT231's and they are my favourite 6SN7's thus far. Exciting, with generous bass, and 'space and air' between instruments, that I love.

Cheers...


----------



## gibosi

And again, everyone's ears and gear are different. Depending on output tubes, my favorite "true" 6SN7's are the Sylvania 6SN7W from the mid-1940's and the GEC/Marconi B65 from the early 1950's.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> And again, everyone's ears and gear are different. Depending on output tubes, my favorite "true" 6SN7's are the Sylvania 6SN7W from the mid-1940's and the GEC/Marconi B65 from the early 1950's.




Right-o, I have heard you state that before. Would love a pair, but they not super common these days and when you do see them they want a small fortune for them 

I missed the 1,6 B lottery by....let's see....5 numbers 

Cheers!


----------



## gibosi

Yes indeed, these tubes can be quite expensive. But fortunately for my wallet, my amp requires only one driver. And rather than pay a premium for the metal-based Sylvania 6SN7W, I bought the often overlooked black-based, small bottle which typically goes for about $50.
  
 But of course, the real budget buster is the B65. However, in addition to 6 volt SN7s, my amp can also run 12SN7s. The B36 is the 12 volt version of the B65, and these too typically go for about $50 each. So while some might think I have deep pockets, in fact, these wonderful tubes are actually quite affordable.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> Yes indeed, these tubes can be quite expensive. But fortunately for my wallet, my amp requires only one driver. And rather than pay a premium for the metal-based Sylvania 6SN7W, I bought the often overlooked black-based, small bottle which typically goes for about $50.
> 
> But of course, the real budget buster is the B65. However, in addition to 6 volt SN7s, my amp can also run 12SN7s. The B36 is the 12 volt version of the B65, and these too typically go for about $50 each. So while some might think I have deep pockets, in fact, these wonderful tubes are actually quite affordable.




Ah, very good. That is two advantages - to just need a single, in 6 or 12v.

How about the early Fivre 6SN7 (brown base) - have you heard one?


----------



## Mechans1

gibosi said:


> Yes indeed, these tubes can be quite expensive. But fortunately for my wallet, my amp requires only one driver. And rather than pay a premium for the metal-based Sylvania 6SN7W, I bought the often overlooked black-based, small bottle which typically goes for about $50.
> 
> But of course, the real budget buster is the B65. However, in addition to 6 volt SN7s, my amp can also run 12SN7s. The B36 is the 12 volt version of the B65, and these too typically go for about $50 each. So while some might think I have deep pockets, in fact, these wonderful tubes are actually quite affordable.


 

 I couldn't agree with you more about the short bottle black or standard base 6SN7 W a very good tube for $50.  They were more expensive a few years back, but then you could get NOS tubes, which is rare now. I own a number of Ws in different sizes, with or without metal bases.  I am getting more and more convinced that each individual tube's condition is a very important factor.
 That said there are still sound signatures that one should expect to find.
 Thanks for the skinny on the  B36it's not a B63 (your certain) that would seem numerically mor sensible.  I couldn't agree with you more about the price of real looking B65s  it's just insane .  It is a pity everyone is hunting for these myself included , big demand always drives prices waaaay up.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> Thanks for the skinny on the  B36it's not a B63 (your certain) that would seem numerically mor sensible....


 
  
 Yes, B36 is correct, although I have no idea why "36" equals 12 volt and "65" equals 6 volt. lol. 
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_b36.html


----------



## JazzVinyl

For those who don't have a Glenn Amp with the nice 6/12 volt driver option...I had an Ebay Seller make these up:





http://www.ebay.com/itm/191741357847


You can use them to run 12SN7 driver tubes, but you must supply the 12v separately.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> How about the early Fivre 6SN7 (brown base) - have you heard one?


 
  
 What time frame are you thinking of when you write "early"? I have two Fivre 6SN7GT, one with a side getter, dated 1956, and the other with a bottom getter, dated 1957. Both have gray staggered plates and black bases. However, I haven't listened to these tubes in a very long time.....
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/4995#post_11682583
  
 It is my opinion that the color of the base has absolutely no affect on the sound of the tube. Bases were put on sometime after the bottle was assembled and evacuated... days, weeks or even months after. It is my opinion that the color (ie composition) of the base was an indication of the intended operating environment. The brown base was said to have better RF isolation but it was also more expensive. And therefore, it was typically specified by end users only for those tubes destined for use in harsh operating environments.


----------



## Currawong

The MELZ I received, while open and clear-sounding, was a bit faulty. I've experimented with an adaptor and 6922s, which sonically has worked great with an Amperex PQ, but it is extremely microphonic -- enough that even touching the cable of my headphones results in ringing. 
  
 I've bought a VT-231 which is on its way. Hopefully that will stop the search. I noticed that it has a similar design to the MELZ, with the components sitting high in the glass. 
  
 Ironically now with an old adaptor I've turned the Schiit Vali 2 into a wonderful amp with a regular syrupy Tung Sol.


----------



## Rossliew

currawong said:


> The MELZ I received, while open and clear-sounding, was a bit faulty. I've experimented with an adaptor and 6922s, which sonically has worked great with an Amperex PQ, but it is extremely microphonic -- enough that even touching the cable of my headphones results in ringing.
> 
> I've bought a VT-231 which is on its way. Hopefully that will stop the search. I noticed that it has a similar design to the MELZ, with the components sitting high in the glass.
> 
> Ironically now with an old adaptor I've turned the Schiit Vali 2 into a wonderful amp with a regular syrupy Tung Sol.




Amos, are you using a 6SN7 in place of the 6dj8 tube for the Vali 2? Is it safe to do so? If it's ok, that opens up a whole lotta potential with the 6sn7


----------



## Currawong

rossliew said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > The MELZ I received, while open and clear-sounding, was a bit faulty. I've experimented with an adaptor and 6922s, which sonically has worked great with an Amperex PQ, but it is extremely microphonic -- enough that even touching the cable of my headphones results in ringing.
> ...


 

 I have been, for a bit, but it requires a socket saver or the cover off. Jason hasn't jumped in and said not to, though I probably should double-check. If he does officially OK it, I was going to ask him about the possibility of getting a cover with a wider hole to allow for the adaptors.


----------



## Rossliew

I wonder if it will sound airier with the cover open...the 6sn7 tube specs look like it is just plug and play according to the Vali faq. I suppose it should be alright


----------



## Currawong

rossliew said:


> I wonder if it will sound airier with the cover open...the 6sn7 tube specs look like it is just plug and play according to the Vali faq. I suppose it should be alright


 

 I'm pretty happy with the PQ in it. The MELZ is too much of a good thing with the SS output stage. I have Brimar 6V6GTs in the Studio Six for a touch of euphoria, so the TS/Emerson in the Vali 2 provided a similar nice balance. I'm surprised, now I think of it, they never considered making the other amps to fit the 6SN7s as well. Maybe they didn't want people going too crazy spending on tubes, or pushing their luck with tubes that draw too much current and blowing something up.


----------



## Rossliew

currawong said:


> I'm pretty happy with the PQ in it. The MELZ is too much of a good thing with the SS output stage. I have Brimar 6V6GTs in the Studio Six for a touch of euphoria, so the TS/Emerson in the Vali 2 provided a similar nice balance. I'm surprised, now I think of it, they never considered making the other amps to fit the 6SN7s as well. Maybe they didn't want people going too crazy spending on tubes, or pushing their luck with tubes that draw too much current and blowing something up.




Think I've asked Alex at Schiit tech about using 6sn7s in place of the 6n6p tubes for the Valhalla and if I recall correctly it's fine to do so but of course the holes won't allow them to fit. Worth a try if one has the Valhalla as well. Think I shall explore this later with my Vali 2.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> Yes indeed, these tubes can be quite expensive. But fortunately for my wallet, my amp requires only one driver. And rather than pay a premium for the metal-based Sylvania 6SN7W, I bought the often overlooked black-based, small bottle which typically goes for about $50.
> 
> But of course, the real budget buster is the B65. However, in addition to 6 volt SN7s, my amp can also run 12SN7s. The B36 is the 12 volt version of the B65, and these too typically go for about $50 each. So while some might think I have deep pockets, in fact, these wonderful tubes are actually quite affordable.


 
 I love being able to run 12/25 volt SN7 tubes.....it has made for getting some really great sounding tubes at really resonable prices, and only needing one tube helps out even more.
  
 That is a killer combo you have in the amp now, Ken.


----------



## gibosi

rossliew said:


> Amos, are you using a 6SN7 in place of the 6dj8 tube for the Vali 2? Is it safe to do so? If it's ok, that opens up a whole lotta potential with the 6sn7


 
  
 According to the FAQ on Schiit's web site, tubes drawing 600 ma or less to run the heaters are good to go in the Vali 2. As the 6SN7 draws 600 ma, it is perfectly safe. Some other tubes drawing 600 ma that might be interesting to try (with adapters) are E80CC/6085 (use a 12AU7 to 6DJ8 adapter) and the ECC40 (I recommend late 1940's to mid 1950's production).


----------



## Rossliew

gibosi said:


> According to the FAQ on Schiit's web site, tubes drawing 600 ma or less to run the heaters are good to go in the Vali 2. As the 6SN7 draws 600 ma, it is perfectly safe. Some other tubes drawing 600 ma that might be interesting to try (with adapters) are E80CC/6085 (use a 12AU7 to 6DJ8 adapter) and the ECC40 (I recommend late 1940's to mid 1950's production).


 

 Thanks, gibosi. That's what i checked before plugging in the 6SN7 but i think my adapters are not so good as i hear hum/hissing on the left channel and the sound just sounds off. In any case, i'm still happy just rolling the 6N1P/6N23P/6DJ8 family of tubes


----------



## Currawong

Jason just gave me the OK for the 6SN7 in the Vali 2, so that's all good.


----------



## Rossliew

Thanks Amos. Now I need to get a new set of adapters. Mine causes some sort of hum. Anyone can recommend a good place to order some adapters?


----------



## Mechans1

rossliew said:


> Thanks Amos. Now I need to get a new set of adapters. Mine causes some sort of hum. Anyone can recommend a good place to order some adapters?


 
     I was trying to tell people that using adapter after adapter flies in the face of standard good audio philosophic principles. Wich are to keep the signal pathway with the fewest sub components  possible eliminating as many  junctions that you can.  
 have the 6SN7  to 12AU7 adapter myself so I am not pure either.  Sadly a week or more ago my adapter started to make noise, so I need a new one or to get this one repaired.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Please examine photos of a 6SN7GTB re-brand that is labelled "WG & Co".

Bought these on that famous auction site for $16.00, incl shipping.

Thought they "might be okay", but turns out they are my favourite 6SN7's after Ken RAD 6SN7GT / VT231's.

Can the original maker be figured, from the photos?













6SN7GTB / Top Halo Getter.


Thanks...



.


----------



## Mechans1

280 is the EIA code for Raytheon.   I need a picture of the plates turned sideways. I hope you know what I mean.  Also show the top "getter" flash where you see 6SN7 GTB marking.  Failing that I would guess, Raytheon but the glass looks to tall for them.
 A very solid buy at $15-, even new crappy Chinese or Russian tubes would cost you more.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mechans1 said:


> 280 is the EIA code for Raytheon.   I need a picture of the plates turned sideways. I hope you know what I mean.  Also show the top "getter" flash where you see 6SN7 GTB marking.  Failing that I would guess, Raytheon but the glass looks to tall for them.
> A very solid buy at $15-, even new crappy Chinese or Russian tubes would cost you more.




Thanks.

I was just getting ready to guess Raytheon as well, based on photos of others for sale, on the net.

Much appreciate!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Here are the other two photos requested from the WG & Co (Raytheon) 6SN7GTB:











.


----------



## magiccabbage

which of these 6sn7s would you guys consider the best sounding? 
  
*Tung Sol Mouse Ears.* 
  
*Sylvania Bad Boys:* True, 3-hole plates. 
  
*Sylvania VT-231:* 
  
*Sylvania 5692 brown base. *
  
*Sylvania Chrome Tops:* 
  
*Raytheon JAN VT-231:* 
  
  *National Union:* 
  
*RCA Gray Glass:* 
  
*Raytheon Chrome Tops:*


----------



## Currawong

You might want to look through a few pages of the 6SN7 thread on here (or maybe a few dozen!) as it has a lot of info and links to to information about different tubes. 
  
 At the moment I'm not convinced that spending on 6SN7s for the Vali is worth it after switching a few tubes around.


----------



## Rossliew

mechans1 said:


> I was trying to tell people that using adapter after adapter flies in the face of standard good audio philosophic principles. Wich are to keep the signal pathway with the fewest sub components  possible eliminating as many  junctions that you can.
> have the 6SN7  to 12AU7 adapter myself so I am not pure either.  Sadly a week or more ago my adapter started to make noise, so I need a new one or to get this one repaired.


 

 You have a valid point there. In fact, i believe the Vali runs the 6DJ8 tubes very conservatively such that the tubes are not burning to the touch. Hence i would tend to believe that replacing 6SN7s would not make the Vali sound better. From my experience with the Tung Sol Mouse Ears, i found the sound to be fast but lean, lesser body as compared to the stock type tubes. So, conclusion to my self is to stick to the 6DJ8 family type of tubes for rolling pleasure.


----------



## JazzVinyl

magiccabbage said:


> which of these 6sn7s would you guys consider the best sounding?
> 
> *Tung Sol Mouse Ears.*
> 
> ...




Opinions / descriptions of how they sound are located here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread

I don't have all the ones you listed. But, so far, I like Ken Rad VT231's the best, and Raytheon 6SN7GTB second best.

One pair I bought that was somewhat pricey, that I didn't like were the 'RCA VT231 Grey glass', thought they were awfully thin in the bass region.


----------



## magiccabbage

jazzvinyl said:


> Opinions / descriptions of how they sound are located here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
> 
> ...


 
 are the Raytheon 6SN7GTB the chrome tops i mentioned or a totally different tube altogether?


----------



## JazzVinyl

magiccabbage said:


> are the Raytheon 6SN7GTB the chrome tops i mentioned or a totally different tube altogether?




Yes, Chrome Tops, mine is re-badged "WG&Co"

Photos of it here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5535#post_12301907
and
http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5535#post_12302044


----------



## Mechans1

magiccabbage said:


> which of these 6sn7s would you guys consider the best sounding?
> 
> *Tung Sol Mouse Ears.*
> 
> ...


 

 Of these I prefer the Sylvania 6SN7 W  which I think you are including as Sylvania "chrome tops"  more often referred to as Chrome Domes.  The Sylvania Bad Boy is also a very very good tube , which turn up in lots etc. keeping their price lower than most, albeit used.  The Tung Sol GT non round plarte or mouse eared is a really good if somewhat pedestrian  tube.  Personally I never loved the RCA, don't know why, but find them un involving.   .To be completely honest none of the tubes you listed are bad, they are all pretty good and better.
 The trick now is finding affordable European tubes such as the Brimar 6SN7GTY CV 1988 and the sort of like 6SN7s such as the Mullard the ECC32 and 33 etc and other rarities.  I will brag a little and admit to owning multiple versions of the  Brimar  CV 1988, and a few NOS ECC32 and some used ECC33s..I own Italian Marconis  I wish they were the English ones but I can't bring myself to afford the MOV GEC  B65.   I have not heard the Russian hole plated nor the Telefunken.  I do have a quad of crappy Russian tubes that has "made in Germany" printed on them, Anyone want to buy them? I am just kidding around I know there is a classified section on this site.  
 The 5692s have never made me happy, but I still own a couple of pairs of the RCA red base.  For anyone completely bass minded might like these , with their soft  edge A real bass head will want the  bass champ Ken Rad.
 I have never wanted to buy the expensive Chinese versions that are out now.  It looks like all the engineering went into packaging and advertising.  I know some will be vehement about the sound quality and beauty of these tubes.  
 All this a strictly subjective and in my Opinion


----------



## JazzVinyl

mechans1 said:


> Of these I prefer the Sylvania 6SN7 W  which I think you are including as Sylvania "chrome tops"  more often referred to as Chrome Domes.  The Sylvania Bad Boy is also a very very good tube , which turn up in lots etc. keeping their price lower than most, albeit used.
> 
> All this a strictly subjective and in my Opinion




I have heard many say they prefer the Syl 6SN7 W, to all others, but I have yet to hear it. Looking forward to finding a pair, one day.


----------



## JazzVinyl

The Sylvania tubes marked: 

6SN7 W GTA

Sound the same as ones marked: 

6SN7 W 

?

:rolleyes:


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> The Sylvania tubes marked:
> 
> 6SN7 W GTA
> 
> ...


 
  
 No. 6SN7W was manufactured around 1945 while the 6SN7WGTA was manufactured in the 1950's and into the 1960's. As others have observed, I find the midrange of the later tube to be a bit dryer and leaner than the 1940's production.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> No. 6SN7W was manufactured around 1945 while the 6SN7WGTA was manufactured in the 1950's and into the 1960's. As others have observed, I find the midrange of the later tube to be a bit dryer and leaner than the 1940's production.




Got it.

How is the bass in the "W" ?


----------



## gibosi

I find the bass of the "W" to be very good. While not as big as the  Ken-Rad, it is still very good. And again, the Sylvania 6SN7W is my favorite "true" 6SN7. But of course, my ears and my gear.


----------



## Currawong

My perfectly matched Sylvania VT-231 arrived. It's about spot-on now without too much or too little of anything (as a gain tube). I'm not sure it is radically different to the GE GTB I have already. I think that'll do me for now. I need a Ragnarok before I need more tubes.


----------



## magiccabbage

currawong said:


> My perfectly matched Sylvania VT-231 arrived. It's about spot-on now without too much or too little of anything (as a gain tube). I'm not sure it is radically different to the GE GTB I have already. I think that'll do me for now. I need a Ragnarok before I need more tubes.


 
 I was thinking of a RAG myself. Its beginning to tickle me.


----------



## JazzVinyl

I just received my Sylvania 6SN7GT's and I am very pleased. A rich full bodied midrange, sweet high end and a nice round bottom as well.

Ken Rad VT231's are wonderful tubes, too. They have the larger bass and an extended high end, and holographic sound stage. 

Two re-badged sets of 6SN7GTB's are also wonderful. Both made by Raytheon, one with the ladder plates, the other with the T plates. Both sets also sound nice. Very balanced and true to the recording. 

Hoping to acquire the famous Sylvania 6SN7W's to see why everyone raves about these, I'm sure they will live up to the glowing reputation.

Enjoying the 6SN7 family...very much.

Happy Listening, all...


----------



## Mechans1

jazzvinyl said:


> I just received my Sylvania 6SN7GT's and I am very pleased. A rich full bodied midrange, sweet high end and a nice round bottom as well.
> 
> Ken Rad VT231's are wonderful tubes, too. They have the larger bass and an extended high end, and holographic sound stage.
> 
> ...


 

 I think you understand that the 6SN7 WGT is not what I m referring to  I mean the  6SN7 W.  You can find the short bottle black base  W  variants for about $50 today, a lot less than it has been in the past.  You are not going to find the taller bottles or the very desirable metal base for that.  I would put some short bottles on my list if I were you.   I own a bunch, having started a collection of them about 12 years ago or more.  There is more to the story but I don't want to confuse you.  I will add it later sometime.
  
 VT 231 I think is a military part number, that was used extensively during WW2 and the Korean conflict.


----------



## ericr

mechans1 said:


> I think you understand that the 6SN7 WGT is not what I m referring to  I mean the  6SN7 W.  You can find the short bottle black base  W  variants for about $50 today, a lot less than it has been in the past.  You are not going to find the taller bottles or the very desirable metal base for that.  I would put some short bottles on my list if I were you.   I own a bunch, having started a collection of them about 12 years ago or more.  There is more to the story but I don't want to confuse you.  I will add it later sometime.
> 
> 
> VT 231 I think is a military part number, that was used extensively during WW2 and the Korean conflict.




Agreed on the Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle with black base. My Project Ember amp can run a huge variety of tubes and I've bought many of them. The 6SN7W is clearly my favorite (I've recently bought 4 additional).

Regarding the 6SN7 WGTA I also agree they are less impressive with the exception of a Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7 WGTA with the brown base, which is a very close match to the older 6SN7W black base. They are susceptible to interference though. It works fine at home and the office but was a noisy mess at a recent meet (with lots of other gear nearby).


----------



## Skylab

Personally, I think the Sylvania JAN 6SN7WGTA is an underrated tune. It's nicely balanced, warm without being gooey, extended FR in both directions. I've been using them in my Cary SLP-05 for a couple of years and have no desire to replace them.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mechans1 said:


> I think you understand that the 6SN7 WGT is not what I m referring to  I mean the  6SN7 W.  You can find the short bottle black base  W  variants for about $50 today, a lot less than it has been in the past.  You are not going to find the taller bottles or the very desirable metal base for that.  I would put some short bottles on my list if I were you.   I own a bunch, having started a collection of them about 12 years ago or more.  There is more to the story but I don't want to confuse you.  I will add it later sometime.
> 
> 
> VT 231 I think is a military part number, that was used extensively during WW2 and the Korean conflict.




Hello Mechans1 -

Yes, I am clear in the 6SN7 W (no other designations). Those are the ones I am trying to locate, and yes, I see the short bottle black base ones go for less than the metal based or taller bottle ones.

Looking forward to owning a pair.

I just commented on the Syl 6SN7GT's as they were new to my arsenal of 6SN7's.

Appreciate....


----------



## JazzVinyl

skylab said:


> Personally, I think the Sylvania JAN 6SN7WGTA is an underrated tune. It's nicely balanced, warm without being gooey, extended FR in both directions. I've been using them in my Cary SLP-05 for a couple of years and have no desire to replace them.




Appreciate that info, Skylab...

Good Listening!


----------



## magiccabbage

In a week or two I will have the following tubes ¬
  
*TS 6f8g *
  
*Ken Rad VT 231*
  
*Tung Sol Mouse Ears.*
  
*Sylvania Bad Boys:*
  
*Sylvania Chrome Tops:*
  
*National Union:*
  
 Ill let you guys know what I think of them in the WA5. Thinking of pairing them with AVVT 300b.


----------



## rightslot

I am new to most of all this.
  
 But just purchased a DARK VOICE 336SE  and then a 6SN7 and 6AS7G.  Both Tung-Sol
  
 Any thoughts on those two?


----------



## JohnBal

rightslot said:


> I am new to most of all this.
> 
> But just purchased a DARK VOICE 336SE  and then a 6SN7 and 6AS7G.  Both Tung-Sol
> 
> Any thoughts on those two?


 
 Those are very nice tubes. You could live happily with them for a long time.
  
 Or, just go crazy buying different tubes like the rest of us, never being quite content, always trying for a slightly different flavor of sound.
  
 Or on second thought, you could just live happily with them for a long time.
  
 Enjoy your amp!


----------



## rightslot

Very funny reply!  
  
 The amp + "standard" tubes will arrive today.  The extra tubes on Monday/Tuesday.
  
 Can't wait.


----------



## zeed

Hi guys,
  
 Looking to the following pics, is there any interesting valve which is worth buying? Maybe some particular internal structure which is considered rare or very good sounding?
 They should be:
 1) 6SN7GTA GE
 2) 6SN7GTA GE
 3) 6SN7GTA Sylvania


----------



## Mechans1

I would seek different 6SN7s other than GTA or GTBs.  Why have you chosen GTAs to look at? If if this is your first foray into buying old stock tubes, then you may want to stick GTAs or GTBs to give you a better chance of getting a less used up tube. No guarantees of that either of course.. I didn't see the prices asked. 
   All other things being equal go with Sylvania.  GE is probably under rated but there is precious little to recommend them,   There is something called NOS but in truth I think it's getting rare. How has the seller advertised them ??
 There are some very, very good Sylvania GTAs but the one you have shown is not one of them.  Look for heavy chrome, flashing or gettering as it called.  For example do a search of the much more costly Sylvania W (not GTW), to get an idea of the amount and type of chrome to look for on the tube. I like Sylvania on any number of price points and scarcity levels. GTAs and especially GTBs should be abundant and inexpensive.  The sound is well balanced and has rounded edges , if you grant me poetic license.  The GE is a decent tube better than current production in my opinion, it is unobtrusive and doesn't add or subtract much color or character to the sound.  .
 What would you want the tube to do if it can't be completely neutral and transparent. Do you lean towards warmth, quickness, imaging bass etc.
 Let me make a general recommendation until you get tell us  what you are looking for.    The Sylvania 6SN7 GT 1950s bottom getter 'bad boy' style can be found at a decent price.  Note that the plates have 2 rivet holes, if there are 3 that's a real bad boy, and the sellers know this as a general rule and ask a lot more for them.  Do not pay for a bad boy unless it has the required 3 hole plate.  I would stick with the 2 hole plated tubes for less.


----------



## r one

First pic : it's a 5692 type no ?


----------



## Oskari

r one said:


> First pic : it's a 5692 type no ?


 
  
 Good catch.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mechans1 said:


> I would seek different 6SN7s other than GTA or GTBs.  Why have you chosen GTAs to look at? If if this is your first foray into buying old stock tubes, then you may want to stick GTAs or GTBs to give you a better chance of getting a less used up tube. No guarantees of that either of course.. I didn't see the prices asked.
> All other things being equal go with Sylvania.  GE is probably under rated but there is precious little to recommend them,   There is something called NOS but in truth I think it's getting rare. How has the seller advertised them ??
> There are some very, very good Sylvania GTAs but the one you have shown is not one of them.  Look for heavy chrome, flashing or gettering as it called.  For example do a search of the much more costly Sylvania W (not GTW), to get an idea of the amount and type of chrome to look for on the tube. I like Sylvania on any number of price points and scarcity levels. GTAs and especially GTBs should be abundant and inexpensive.  The sound is well balanced and has rounded edges , if you grant me poetic license.  The GE is a decent tube better than current production in my opinion, it is unobtrusive and doesn't add or subtract much color or character to the sound.  .
> What would you want the tube to do if it can't be completely neutral and transparent. Do you lean towards warmth, quickness, imaging bass etc.
> Let me make a general recommendation until you get tell us  what you are looking for.    The Sylvania 6SN7 GT 1950s bottom getter 'bad boy' style can be found at a decent price.  Note that the plates have 2 rivet holes, if there are 3 that's a real bad boy, and the sellers know this as a general rule and ask a lot more for them.  Do not pay for a bad boy unless it has the required 3 hole plate.  I would stick with the 2 hole plated tubes for less.





If it helps, here is a photo is two early 6SN7's...on left is brown base 1950's 6SN7WGT and on the right, a 1940's 6SN7W. Both sound nice, but the 6SN7W (on right) has a slight preferred sound advantage. Note the 6SN7W's heavier Getter Flash Chrome, as Mechans1 pointed out...






Hope that helped...

Cheers...


----------



## Mechans1

Thank you for pointing out the Sylvania 6SN7WGT.  It is a good tube if you like a quick clean response, I would avoid the 6SN7WGTA  however which just isn't as good. Sorry about the nomenclature used.


----------



## gibosi

There is one Sylvania 6SN7GTA worth getting, IMO. This is the small bottle Chrome dome with very heavy chrome.  
  
 Below, two Sylvania 6SN7GTA, both dated 1953.
  

  
 And two Sylvania 6SN7GT, 1952 (left) and 1949 (right)
  
 Interestingly, the 1952 tube has a shorter base than the GTA's above and the 1949 GT. Also quite interesting, the 1949 tube has 2-hole plates and a bottom mica similar to the 6SN7W, but there is no support rod.
  

  
 I suspect my old ears do not permit me to hear differences others do, but to my ears, these tubes sound the same. So my conclusion is short base, tall base, 2-hole plates, 3-hole plates, all these late 1940's / early 1950's heavily chromed Sylvanias, whether 6SN7GT or 6SN7GTA, are virtually the same tube. And they sound very good too, but they are different than the short-bottle 6SN7W.


----------



## MIKELAP

Would anybody have infos on this Sylvania 6SL7  date code


----------



## gibosi

I don't think this 3-digit dating system, year and week, was used in the mid-1940's by Sylvania. I am inclined to believe it was introduced somewhat later, so my best guess is 1954.


----------



## Mechans1

I would just call like it is.  It was made in the 44th week of 1954.  That is what I was told about this numbering system.    The sound of the WGT is very distinct sound to my old ears which  I described above.  They are very quick and have a clean clear  'fast' sound with good imagery.  The black base GTs are better at imagery and have a slightly warm  sound, they too are precise but add a little euphony IMHO, which I like.  I used a medium size bottle, with the highly desirable  metal base W, tonight.  I must say they are a superior in every aspect of tube sound.  Too tired to go into it in detail right  now, but have written about it before.  They are actually cheaper now than they have been.  You can pick up a short bottle black base W for $ 50 or there about.


----------



## Luckbad

gibosi said:


> I suspect my old ears do not permit me to hear differences others do, but to my ears, these tubes sound the same. So my conclusion is short base, tall base, 2-hole plates, 3-hole plates, all these late 1940's / early 1950's heavily chromed Sylvanias, whether 6SN7GT or 6SN7GTA, are virtually the same tube. And they sound very good too, but they are different than the short-bottle 6SN7W.


 
  
 I'm in the same boat. If I have two tubes that are exceedingly similar but slightly different, I tend to notice no differences even in direct comparisons.
  
 In my DAC, I love GE Triple Mica 5670 tubes, whether they're standard, white 5 star, or red 5 star. To my ears, they're all identical.
  
 In my amp, I love 6N6P or 6N6P-I tubes. To my ears, they're the same as well.
  
 Heck, I've found cheaper tube combo alternatives to the RCA Smoked Glass 6SN7GT that I find to sound very similar at a much lower price, hence them being for sale (for those wondering, RCA 5670 in the DAC + 6N6P in the amp gives me a very similar sound to GE 5 Star in the DAC and RCA 6SN7GT in the amp).


----------



## Mechans1

luckbad said:


> I'm in the same boat. If I have two tubes that are exceedingly similar but slightly different, I tend to notice no differences even in direct comparisons.
> 
> In my DAC, I love GE Triple Mica 5670 tubes, whether they're standard, white 5 star, or red 5 star. To my ears, they're all identical.
> 
> ...


 

 Can you describe the attributes of the 6N6P tube?  I am familiar with the  SQ of the GE 5 Star white, which I think is underrated.  I like what the 5Star does with bass/low frequency in particular, which can be thunderous but usually well defined, IMO of Course and YMMV etc.


----------



## Luckbad

mechans1 said:


> Can you describe the attributes of the 6N6P tube?  I am familiar with the  SQ of the GE 5 Star white, which I think is underrated.  I like what the 5Star does with bass/low frequency in particular, which can be thunderous but usually well defined, IMO of Course and YMMV etc.


 
  
 6H6P when provided with ample heater current is rock solid, spacious, and very natural sounding. Is does not emphasize treble, but isn't soft unless you don't give it enough power.
  
 It's actually in the same sound family in my opinion as the GE 5 Star White with a touch less bass emphasis and a little more separation.


----------



## leftside

I was sold these as a matching pair. The insides look exactly the same and the lettering on the metal plate is exactly the same - even has the "anchor symbol". But, the stamps on top of the chrome/glass are different. One is 6SN7 W A 5, and the other is 6SN7 A L 4. Should I have any concerns at all?


----------



## leftside

I'm going to answer my own question. After further research and asking a couple of other sellers I've bought from, they appear to be the same.


----------



## Mechans1

Indeed the same-
 but I haven't seen flashing like that/  It seems irregular.in it's relation to the glass that would not be a good thing. I think but if your experience proves me wrong I wouldn't be surprised.
  
 NB :
 In reviewing these photos on 52/16 the "irregularities" seem to be simple reflections from the room.   There is nothing else that I see now which I not what y would want to see.  These are very nice tubes, I have one in an amp I use, on a more or less  permanent basis. I roll when I get something interesting but haven't bought in a while, have to sell some tubes at some point -but I like my tubes, a conundrum indeed.


----------



## leftside

I think it might just be the light/photo? The flashing is completely solid.


----------



## JazzVinyl

They look like the genuine article to me. Are the mica's exactly the same in both?

Bet they sound great 

Listening to a similar pair here, now. Love them....


----------



## leftside

Yes mica's exactly the same. I'm about to give them a try. I like to deoxit clean and deoxit condition the pins the night before I try a new tube. Allow everything to settle after traveling, and then give them a try the next night - which is tonight


----------



## JazzVinyl

Very good, I'm confident you will find them totally engaging. Smooth, professional sounding tubes that will bring you immense listening pleasure. 

Enjoy!


----------



## leftside

jazzvinyl said:


> Very good, I'm confident you will find them totally engaging. Smooth, professional sounding tubes that will bring you immense listening pleasure.
> 
> Enjoy!


 

 Yes, that's a very good summary. I was also lucky enough to try out the TungSol BGRP last night. These are also very nice tubes, but I found myself switching back to the Sylvania's. I'd like to experiment a little more, but at the moment I'm putting the Sylvania's right up there with my Mullard ECC range of tubes.


----------



## Mechans1

I read somewhere that the tube top designation A tubes were made earlier than  the W, but both were identical  Sylvania Military 6SN7Ws.  I now think my concern about the flashing/gettering is merely a photo image issue.  Both tubes are the excellent Metal base med to tall bottle 6SN7W.  I am using  one myself at this time and think it is superb.


----------



## jamato8

mechans1 said:


> I read somewhere that the tube top designation A tubes were made earlier than  the W, but both were identical  Sylvania Military 6SN7Ws.  I now think my concern about the flashing/gettering is merely a photo image issue.  Both tubes are the excellent Metal base med to tall bottle 6SN7W.  I am using  one myself at this time and think it is superb.


 

 Getter is almost never even, as it is a process that can only be controlled to a certain degree. Some people say they can tell if a tube has been used a lot by the getter but this is rarely true. Getter can be dark or very silver looking, depending upon the exact chemicals used. I had a tube pair with one of them loosing the getter. Sad as I loved the sound of the tubes. As the tube becomes more gassy, more getter is used until it turns white. Most tubes are pretty reliable. When I was in the Navy we had a transmitter that used two large power tubes. They normally put out 50 watts each but for emergencies, they could put out 500 watts combined for about 5 minutes. Wow they got hot and glowed like a bright bulb! Even at that, 500 watts didn't seem to help much. lol


----------



## paulchiu

Anyone listen to the northen electric 6SN7 from Canada or the Chinese Psvane CV181T Mark 2 6SN7 "premium" grade?
 Both about $100 each.  Yeah, expensive beast.
  
 Paul


----------



## TonyNewman

Anyone tried these? Any comments?
  
 I have found all the new production 6SN7s disappointing (to say the least). The better ones have excellent detail and extension, but are dry to the point of harshness. Not my thing at all.
  
 These are Shuguang's attempt to produce a 6SN7 in the "WE Style" - meaning a richer and warmer sound. If they can do that, without sacrificing too much detail and extension, then these might be a winner. My WA6 is currently broken, or I would order a pair myself and try them out.


----------



## r one

Same as you. I don't like any new 6sn7.these are interesting me too.


----------



## isquirrel

paulchiu said:


> Anyone listen to the northen electric 6SN7 from Canada or the Chinese Psvane CV181T Mark 2 6SN7 "premium" grade?
> Both about $100 each.  Yeah, expensive beast.
> 
> Paul


 

 Yep, listened to a matched pair of the Psvane CV181T Mk 2, they are supposed to need 300 hours so I gave them at least that and they were still nasty, harsh, bright and metallic. Nothing to see hear move along.


----------



## isquirrel

tonynewman said:


> Anyone tried these? Any comments?
> 
> I have found all the new production 6SN7s disappointing (to say the least). The better ones have excellent detail and extension, but are dry to the point of harshness. Not my thing at all.
> 
> These are Shuguang's attempt to produce a 6SN7 in the "WE Style" - meaning a richer and warmer sound. If they can do that, without sacrificing too much detail and extension, then these might be a winner. My WA6 is currently broken, or I would order a pair myself and try them out.


 

 Mate its possible, but I would not be risking another dump of dollars just to find out. I seriously doubt it, besides I have 10 sets left of the TSRP's 2 matched pairs of the Syl Metal Bases & 4 x Syl Bad Boys along with just about every other RCA etc etc. SO fr I keep coming back to the TSRP's nothing else does it for me like those. I would probably swap over to C3G's if Woo got the circuit right and they managed to get some bass out of them, otherwise they are quite a good thing as you know.


----------



## TonyNewman

isquirrel said:


> Mate its possible, but I would not be risking another dump of dollars just to find out. I seriously doubt it, besides I have 10 sets left of the TSRP's 2 matched pairs of the Syl Metal Bases & 4 x Syl Bad Boys along with just about every other RCA etc etc. SO fr I keep coming back to the TSRP's nothing else does it for me like those. I would probably swap over to C3G's if Woo got the circuit right and they managed to get some bass out of them, otherwise they are quite a good thing as you know.


 
  
 In an amp designed for them, I can state that the C3G goes deep and hard in the bass. Fast and punchy. Listening to right it now on my Glenn 300B + HD800S rig. Loving it. Only a touch behind my SS rig (V281 + HE6) for detail, dynamics, clarity.
  
 I also have a hefty stash of TS RPs and NUs (IMHO the NU comes a close second to the TS RP - both are excellent). The problem is that these tubes are now getting increasingly scarce and expensive. That is a big turnoff for newbies joining the hobby. If someone can produce a new production 6SN7 with decent detail and extension that _*doesn't*_ sound like fingernails being dragged down a blackboard that would be a good thing for everyone.
  
 Even if the Shuguang WE6SN7 tubes were only 80% of the performance of the TS RP, that would still put them head and shoulders above the rubbish currently being churned out, and provide a relatively affordable driver for new comers to the hobby.


----------



## paulchiu

isquirrel said:


> Yep, listened to a matched pair of the Psvane CV181T Mk 2, they are supposed to need 300 hours so I gave them at least that and they were still nasty, harsh, bright and metallic. Nothing to see hear move along.


 
  
 Thanks Simon, metallic would not suit me at all. You saved me a ton of time.
  
 Paul


----------



## SonicTrance

> Originally Posted by *TonyNewman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I also have a hefty stash of TS RPs and NUs (IMHO the NU comes a close second to the TS RP - both are excellent). The problem is that these tubes are now getting increasingly scarce and expensive. That is a big turnoff for newbies joining the hobby. If someone can produce a new production 6SN7 with decent detail and extension that _*doesn't*_ sound like fingernails being dragged down a blackboard that would be a good thing for everyone.
> 
> Even if the Shuguang WE6SN7 tubes were only 80% of the performance of the TS RP, that would still put them head and shoulders above the rubbish currently being churned out, and provide a relatively affordable driver for new comers to the hobby.


 
 I totally agree. I also have a nice collection of old stock tubes, but would not hesitate to use new production tubes if the sound was right! 
 I've tried the psvane cv-181 treasure and psvane uk-6sn7, they don't come close to nice old stock tubes unfortunately.
  
 I'm also interested in those we6SN7/we6SL7's though. Shuguang also have a series they call "nature sound" which as I understand it is a further development of the treasure series.


----------



## r one

TS rp make me dream with my amp. Unfortunately i have only one.


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> TS rp make me dream with my amp. Unfortunately i have only one.


 

 Half a dream is better than no dream. 
  
 Great tubes. The boxes that some came in are beautiful also. I have a pair of NoS Navy TS RP, the box is thick and a light brown with deep navy blue heavy stamping for the tube type and specifications.


----------



## Stereolab42

tonynewman said:


> Anyone tried these? Any comments?
> 
> I have found all the new production 6SN7s disappointing (to say the least). The better ones have excellent detail and extension, but are dry to the point of harshness. Not my thing at all.
> 
> These are Shuguang's attempt to produce a 6SN7 in the "WE Style" - meaning a richer and warmer sound. If they can do that, without sacrificing too much detail and extension, then these might be a winner. My WA6 is currently broken, or I would order a pair myself and try them out.


 
  
 Those look to be on the verge of "too fat" for many Woo amps, will they even fit in a WA5?


----------



## leftside

stereolab42 said:


> Those look to be on the verge of "too fat" for many Woo amps, will they even fit in a WA5?


 

 Maybe not. Should be fine on the WA22. I quite like the Treasures.


----------



## TonyNewman

stereolab42 said:


> Those look to be on the verge of "too fat" for many Woo amps, will they even fit in a WA5?


 
  
 Spacers are your friend.


----------



## r one

jamato8 said:


> Half a dream is better than no dream.
> 
> Great tubes. The boxes that some came in are beautiful also. I have a pair of NoS Navy TS RP, the box is thick and a light brown with deep navy blue heavy stamping for the tube type and specifications.



I mean that i have only one nib piece of this sounding jewel. I use it e very day but i have no other one to replace it.


----------



## leftside

Anyone else heard of Triotron? They are the same as Mullard (same Philips parent company). They also come with nice boxes:


----------



## gibosi

leftside said:


> Anyone else heard of Triotron? They are the same as Mullard (same Philips parent company). They also come with nice boxes:


 
  
 In the case of this ECC35, Mullard's production code is clearly visible:  "RU2 B6B". Thus it was actually manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory in 1956. And in a number of the other photos above, snippets of similar production codes can be seen. Therefore, while there is evidence that Triotron did manufacture vacuum tubes in the 1920's and '30's, the above tubes would seem to be rebadged Mullards.


----------



## leftside

Makes sense. They have nicer boxes than the Mullard branded tubes though


----------



## isquirrel

r one said:


> I mean that i have only one nib piece of this sounding jewel. I use it e very day but i have no other one to replace it.


 

 PM me if you are interested in buying another matched pair or a single.


----------



## r one

PM sent


----------



## Mechans1

I noticed that the guy who asked about an alternative to current production 6SN7s.  I tend to agree with him concerning current production.  The problem is figuring out what 'old stock" tubes that are truly new.  Then the brand, my favorite starter tube is a fresh newish Sylvania GTB .  He can take a number of paths from them.  It is difficult to explain the ups and downs about buying  OS tubes.  I would nevertheless point him at OS tubes from one of several honest dealers..


----------



## Skylab

I agree with that completely. I tried the Shuggie, the Sophia, the New Sensor, the EH...and I have never heard a current production 6SN7 that I thought sounded as good as a basic Sylvania 6SN7GTB.


----------



## whirlwind

skylab said:


> I agree with that completely. I tried the Shuggie, the Sophia, the New Sensor, the EH...and I have never heard a current production 6SN7 that I thought sounded as good as a basic Sylvania 6SN7GTB.


 
  
 +1 on the new production vs the older 6SN7 tubes....pretty much all 1940's  6/12  SN7's sound very nice in my amp.


----------



## Frihed89

The GTB is a relatively modern tube, designed for higher plate voltages than the GT.  I prefer some of the "vintage" WWII (I hesitate to use the term "NOS") GT models and their electrical (but not pin) equivalents.


----------



## Mechans1

frihed89 said:


> The GTB is a relatively modern tube, designed for higher plate voltages than the GT.  I prefer some of the "vintage" WWII (I hesitate to use the term "NOS") GT models and their electrical (but not pin) equivalents.


 

 I prefer the older tubes myself, almost all of my collection are GTs.  I recommend the GTBs , because I think his chances for a relatively new or lightly used tube is greater than with GTs.  I also know the typical sound of the Sylvania GTB, and think it may appeal to him    They have a very pleasant euphonic, somewhat warm tone to my ears.  He can go in a couple of directions from there .
  I whole heartedly agree with you on the use od NOS.  They are very rare, but you can find them.  The general use of NOS instead of just 'Old Stock' which accounts for virtually all of them, makes people sound ill informed (there are more vulgar and punitive terms that actually come to my mind).


----------



## Skylab

Right, the point wasn't that GTBs are better than GTs or WGTs...no one was saying that. The point was that for someone just getting into tubes, the GTB's are easy to get, fairly cheap, and better than any current production 6SN7.


----------



## Mechans1

skylab said:


> Right, the point wasn't that GTBs are better than GTs or WGTs...no one was saying that. The point was that for someone just getting into tubes, the GTB's are easy to get, fairly cheap, and better than any current production 6SN7s.





> Thanks I was trying to say exactly that,-  You said it a lot better than I did.


----------



## leftside

Can't argue with any of that. I picked up some RCA 6SN7GTB Parallel Black Plate for $75, RCA 6SN7GT Grey Glass for $40 and Tung-Sol GTB Tall Boy for $35 recently. All sound great.


----------



## whirlwind

I need some more boxes to fit the 6SN7, i do not remember where i ordered them from last time....anybody know of a place that they are sold fairly cheap.


----------



## MIKELAP

whirlwind said:


> I need some more boxes to fit the 6SN7, i do not remember where i ordered them from last time....anybody know of a place that they are sold fairly cheap.


 
 https://www.amplifiedparts.com/


----------



## whirlwind

mikelap said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I need some more boxes to fit the 6SN7, i do not remember where i ordered them from last time....anybody know of a place that they are sold fairly cheap.
> ...


 
 Thanks much, Mike, I appreciate it.
  
 I have been enjoying this 12SN7 this morning, it sounds great, nice support rods, only two micas, bottom rectangle getter


----------



## whirlwind

Received this a few hours ago...I am really liking the sound of it.
  

  

  

  

  
 I think it meets the construction criteria for a 12SN7 "bad boy"
  
 I thought I read somewhere that they stopped making bad boy in 1952, this is from 1953....so who knows.


----------



## Mechans1

I Don't know the criteria for the 12 Volt Bad Boy if it exists at all. If they follow the 6 volt true  Bad Boy they would have been made before the 14th week of 1953.  The date code would read  3 13 or earlier. The production started In the 39th week of 1951 going all the way through 1952 and ending around the 16th week of 1953 as above.  Having been made within this timeframe does not make all Sylvanias.6SN7s Bad Boys .  You are quite right to inspect for the correct plates ,etc..  Look up the 6SN7 reference page here for the other criteria.  That is where I learned the date range.  Other criteria are also discussed all information provided by Len,  whom I truly respect as an expert on 6SN7s and Bad Boys in particular.


----------



## gibosi

My two cents...
  
 With all due respect, I am very skeptical regarding the accuracy of these dates. I would suggest that they should be considered an educated best-guess. After all, that was more than 60 years ago and I sincerely doubt that anyone really knows for sure the exact start and ending dates for the manufacture of these tubes.
  
 Thus, I always go by construction. And if a tube with the correct construction, manufactured slightly outside this suggested date range, was to turn up, IMHO it would still be a "bad boy".


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> My two cents...
> 
> With all due respect, I am very skeptical regarding the accuracy of these dates. I would suggest that they should be considered an educated best-guess. After all, that was more than 60 years ago and I sincerely doubt that anyone really knows for sure the exact start and ending dates for the manufacture of these tubes.
> 
> Thus, I always go by construction. And if a tube with the correct construction, manufactured slightly outside this suggested date range, was to turn up, IMHO it would still be a "bad boy".


 
 It sounds wonderful, I am really diggin the sound...paired with Chatham 6AS7G


----------



## larcenasb

If a 6SN7 is rated 75/100 and the minimum rating on the tube tester is 70, what's a ballpark guess about how many hours it will last? Thanks!


----------



## r one

A new 6sn7 would give a gm emission 10 or 20% over his full genuine capacity. 
 At 110 or 120 % of transductance capacity you are sure that the tube is new and unused. At 60% of emission tube is simply. ..dead.

For your example at 75 /100, this tube is unbalanced and one of the two triode is dead.


----------



## spacequeen7

*


----------



## larcenasb

r one said:


> A new 6sn7 would give a gm emission 10 or 20% over his full genuine capacity.
> At 110 or 120 % of transductance capacity you are sure that the tube is new and unused. At 60% of emission tube is simply. ..dead.
> 
> For your example at 75 /100, this tube is unbalanced and one of the two triode is dead.


 
 But I'm listening to music through it and it sounds great! I'm just wondering how many hours it might last till it actually does die.


----------



## r one

Generally tubes manufacturer indicate that you have to change the tube when it fall down a about 60%. But it could working again for many hours but at an insuffisent level.


----------



## larcenasb

r one said:


> Generally tubes manufacturer indicate that you have to change the tube when it fall down a about 60%. But it could working again for many hours but at an insuffisent level.


 
 Thanks for your replies, this tube I'm talking about is a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT round plate. I love the body and smoothness of the midrange -- sounds so effortless. I hope it lasts! Cheers!


----------



## r one

I understand. It's my favorite too


----------



## abvolt

larcenasb said:


> Thanks for your replies, this tube I'm talking about is a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT round plate. I love the body and smoothness of the midrange -- sounds so effortless. I hope it lasts! Cheers!


 
 I'd agree that's a great sounding tube..Enjoy


----------



## leftside

Anyone tried the new Psvane 6SN7 CV181 TII's?
 http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-tii-pair/


----------



## Mechans1

Here is more anecdotal evidence that some tubes even when dead tubes can affect your system in a positive way.      I have a  pair of Marconi-phone (made in Great Britain) B309 which are equivalent to a 12AT7.  These tubes read dead on my Hicock 6000A.  I tried them anyway and they sounded truly great really superb.  I rolled anything that was pinout compatible with small tube Integrated amp, a Consonance M100+.


----------



## larcenasb

mechans1 said:


> Here is more anecdotal evidence that some tubes even when dead tubes can affect your system in a positive way.      I have a  pair of Marconi-phone (made in Great Britain) B309 which are equivalent to a 12AT7.  These tubes read dead on my Hicock 6000A.  I tried them anyway and they sounded truly great really superb.  I rolled anything that was pinout compatible with small tube Integrated amp, a Consonance M100+.


 
 Great to hear! Using my near-dead tube makes me appreciate every second of every song so much more -- I don't waste time listening to whatever! This is the bushido code applied to hi-fi, haha.


----------



## SonicTrance

mechans1 said:


> Here is more anecdotal evidence that some tubes even when dead tubes can affect your system in a positive way.      I have a  pair of Marconi-phone (made in Great Britain) B309 which are equivalent to a 12AT7.  These tubes read dead on my Hicock 6000A.  I tried them anyway and they sounded truly great really superb.  I rolled anything that was pinout compatible with small tube Integrated amp, a Consonance M100+.


 
 It depends on the operating point. Say you test a 6SN7 in a tester @ 250V on the plate and it reads low on gm. The you plug the same tube into your amp which lets say gives it 100V on the plate, then the tube will have higher gm. Lower plate voltage gives the tube higher transconductance.


----------



## r one

Anyone can explain me a date code marked on a VT 231 Rp Tung-Sol : 50-645-A. Is it a year indication ?


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> Anyone can explain me a date code marked on a VT 231 Rp Tung-Sol : 50-645-A. Is it a year indication ?


 
  
 How about a picture, so we can see....
  
 But just guessing... have no idea about 50 or A.... However, 645 appears to conform to an American date-code format commonly used at that time, 1946, week 45.


----------



## r one

i  thought the same thing but this is for the most older version of Ts Rp which have a circum mica instead of an oval.  in my mind this model was replaced by the oval mica version during the 1940's.


----------



## r one

And for those who have compared both : internal structure of a 6SN7 Rp and a 6F8G Rp seems to be exactly identical. Both have same plates and same micas. Have you heard a difference between them ?


----------



## whirlwind

r one said:


> And for those who have compared both : internal structure of a 6SN7 Rp and a 6F8G Rp seems to be exactly identical. Both have same plates and same micas. Have you heard a difference between them ?


 
 I have both, they sound pretty darn close to the same to me...any difference would be pretty minimal IMO
  
 Mine is a 12SN7 and not a 6SN7, but that should not matter.


----------



## Skylab

r one said:


> And for those who have compared both : internal structure of a 6SN7 Rp and a 6F8G Rp seems to be exactly identical. Both have same plates and same micas. Have you heard a difference between them ?




I personally found the two to sound almost identical as well. If anything, I slightly preferred the 6F8G Rp. Both super excellent.


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> i  thought the same thing but this is for the most older version of Ts Rp which have a circum mica instead of an oval.  in my mind this model was replaced by the oval mica version during the 1940's.


 
  
 Actually, it is "SC 645 A". This is the US Army Signal Corps number. Frankly, I do not know the meaning of the middle part but suspect that it is nothing more than an inventory number. For example, here is a 12 volt Tung Sol RPBG with the number "SC 66 A". Unfortunately, it appears that most, if not all, of these 1940's JAN-CTL Tung Sols do not have date codes.
  
 However, I have a couple Tung-Sol RPBG, oval top mica spacer, rebranded as Emerson. Both are dated 823 -- 1948, week 23.
  

  
 Edit: Also, there is a JAN-CTL Tung-Sol with the same flat-black plates as are often found in Tung Sol 6F8G. Interestingly, to my ears, it sounds essentially the same as the round-plate versions.


----------



## gibosi

Has anyone tried the British Tungram 6SN7 (Shown here next to an RCA 6SN7, for comparison)?
  

  
  

  
  
 The "KB/T" tells us that this was manufactured by British Tungsram in their Tottenham factory. And "HF" tells us it was manufactured in June, 1952. Interestingly, European Philips acquired the British Tungsram facility in 1952 and evidently kept it going until about 1956. There appear to be production codes on the bottom of the base, but they don't seem to conform to either Philips or Hungarian Tungsram codes and have no idea how to interpret them.
  
 Is it N80? or, 08N? or something different?
  

  

  
 Anyway, haven't spend much time with it, but it sounds pretty good.


----------



## punit

gibosi said:


> Has anyone tried the British Tungram 6SN7 (Shown here next to an RCA 6SN7, for comparison)?


 
 Looks similar to Brimar CV 1988


----------



## Oskari

It's been quite a while but I really liked the Br. Tungsram tube. Lovely in a not-in-your-face way. Don't know about the code.


----------



## gibosi

The Brimar and Tungsram CV1988 do look somewhat the same. However, the Brimar typically has black glass, whereas, the Tungsram has grey glass. And the internal construction, most noticeably, the plates and mica spacers are different.
  
 And further, the sound is different. When I think of Brimar, I think lush and bassy, whereas, my first impression of the Tungram is that it is a good bit leaner and more delicate, closer to the B65 than the Brimar. But again, I have had only about one hour with this tube, so you should take my words with several grains of salt....


----------



## r one

very interesting Gibosi about this _secret_ tube code.
  
 I have other bgrp military tube


 we can read the same kind of code *SC *66 *A*


 same code is on the original box but...


 on the front, it's indicate december 1944. So there's no link between date and code apparently.
 and on this civilian bgrp labelled for Hytron


 the code is different and unreadable


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> Has anyone tried the British Tungram 6SN7 (Shown here next to an RCA 6SN7, for comparison)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have not tried it ....but now I want too.


----------



## larcenasb

The prices for Tung-Sol RPs are depressing. Finally, I bought a low testing Tung-Sol RP for cheap just to finally hear it and hopefully conclude it's not for me ...sigh, it sounds perfect in my system.
  
 AudioQuest DragonFly v1.0 --> Bottlehead Crack --> AKG K240 Sextett


----------



## ericr

r one said:


> i  thought the same thing but this is for the most older version of Ts Rp which have a circum mica instead of an oval.  in my mind this model was replaced by the oval mica version during the 1940's.




A while back I tracked one of these "codes in white box" imprints (from a Raytheon 6SN7W IIRC) to the website for/honoring members of a specific WWII Army Signal Corp regiment. It was an interesting read and various artifacts shown used the same imprint, but it was pretty clear to me it had no value in identifying the tube itself (outside of a WWII era manufacturing date).

-Eric


----------



## jamato8

larcenasb said:


> The prices for Tung-Sol RPs are depressing. Finally, I bought a low testing Tung-Sol RP for cheap just to finally hear it and hopefully conclude it's not for me ...sigh, it sounds perfect in my system.
> 
> AudioQuest DragonFly v1.0 --> Bottlehead Crack --> AKG K240 Sextett


 

 Even the boxes of some of the USN TS RP were beautiful. I have a pair of NOS and the box is a thick cardboard with heavy print in a nice blue wide print. The boxes are like new and don't break down like some older cardboard so I assume they are even acid free. I have a few sets of RP and they are nice. Too bad they got so expensive but they are getting harder to find. I think I paid 5 dollars each for my NOS, but that was a few years ago.


----------



## r one

Wow 5 dollars !! 5 years ago ? 10 years ?


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> Wow 5 dollars !! 5 years ago ? 10 years ?


 

 This was around 11 years ago, maybe a little longer. A place was going out of business. They had a number of tubes and more of these. When I got them I called them but they had sold the rest.


----------



## r one

Someone knows How much was sold a tube like a 6sn7 bgrp during 40's or 50's ?


----------



## jamato8

skylab said:


> I personally found the two to sound almost identical as well. If anything, I slightly preferred the 6F8G Rp. Both super excellent.


 

 I have the choice of the 6SN7 TS RP or the 6F8G RP and use the 6F8G because it is great and less money so the 6SN7 wait in reserve. In the micro Zotl 2 the 6F8G do a great job.


----------



## larcenasb

jamato8 said:


> Even the boxes of some of the USN TS RP were beautiful. I have a pair of NOS and the box is a thick cardboard with heavy print in a nice blue wide print. The boxes are like new and don't break down like some older cardboard so I assume they are even acid free. I have a few sets of RP and they are nice. Too bad they got so expensive but they are getting harder to find. I think I paid 5 dollars each for my NOS, but that was a few years ago.


 
 Oh wow, I'm so jealous! Congrats on that find. I'll keep searching for my favorable-chance bargain. Enjoy those gems!


----------



## r one

jamato8 said:


> I have the choice of the 6SN7 TS RP or the 6F8G RP and use the 6F8G because it is great and less money so the 6SN7 wait in reserve. In the micro Zotl 2 the 6F8G do a great job.



I have both too. In my amp 6sn7 is better for dynamic and deeper in low range. 6F8G is fantastic too, very close to 6sn7 but not exactly the same to me. But my 6f8g rp are true nos and not broken yet, i have just test my pair.


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> I have both too. In my amp 6sn7 is better for dynamic and deeper in low range. 6F8G is fantastic too, very close to 6sn7 but not exactly the same to me. But my 6f8g rp are true nos and not broken yet, i have just test my pair.


 

 They need burn in to shine. I think the TS RP and the 6F8G are very close. I think the 6F8G might have a bit more resolution and the TS RP 6SN7 a little smoother sounding (these are differences that are very small).


----------



## r one

More resolution than 6sn7 rp after break in ? That is interesting thing. I like resolution and dynamic. I am surprise because After a quick comparison, i felt that 6f8g was under 6sn7 for resolution and 3d imaging.


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> More resolution than 6sn7 rp after break in ? That is interesting thing. I like resolution and dynamic. I am surprise because After a quick comparison, i felt that 6f8g was under 6sn7 for resolution and 3d imaging.


 

 I would guess it depends upon the condition of each and the system. Tubes can be biased differently and run different voltages by a wide degree in different amps. There are many variables.


----------



## nykobing

r one said:


> Someone knows How much was sold a tube like a 6sn7 bgrp during 40's or 50's ?


 
  
 In 1943 a 6f8g seems to have cost 1.35 or about 18.67 now.
  
 https://books.google.com/books?id=RwwEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT74&lpg=PT74&dq=6f8g+1+dollar&source=bl&ots=XAYzWUEbI5&sig=Fe4GcBbAv1Te4ksgHrtcNapSPs8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZwo3noI3NAhVYzWMKHSpkAsIQ6AEISjAG#v=onepage&q=6f8g%201%20dollar&f=false
  
 In 1951 a 6sn7 was 1.90 or about 17.48 now.
  
 https://books.google.com/books?id=NB8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=%22the+billboard%22++6sn7&source=bl&ots=cAjETtFskO&sig=T1Ibk25k7XJu-PM1BlsAdHMfsQw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi19MvHoY3NAhUCKWMKHch0C3YQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20billboard%22%20%206sn7&f=false
  
 I just looked at the ads for various tube prices in that magazine.


----------



## r one

Thank you so much for the links. I am history teacher and like this kind of stuffs.


----------



## Rob N

Sylvania metal base labelled as Mullard


----------



## r one

very rare ! i've never seen this ! Absolutely delicious.


----------



## SonicTrance

r one said:


> very rare ! i've never seen this ! Absolutely delicious.


 
 Me neither! The Sylvania 6SN7W is my favorite 6SN7, very nice!


----------



## leftside

I need two


----------



## gibosi

Yes, it is a great tube. And don't be afraid to buy one with a cracked base. (This is the tube in my avatar pic.) I initially put the green twist tie on as a temporary measure, but after more than a year, it appears that it might be a permanent fix. lol


----------



## r one

Excellent Gibosi ^_^


----------



## jamato8

Can't beat twist ties. I also used to use bailing wire on my Ford Bronco 73. Worked for years. lol


----------



## tubesareus

Mr. left side  what is that adapter you are using for your power tubes? 
 How can I get one?


----------



## Jim Hodgson

Apologies if the 6SN7 issue of Vacuum Tube Valley has been linked in this thread already.  (I ran a few searches and didn't see it.  That said, 5672 posts is a lot of ground to cover...)
  
 Eric Barbour's article, "6SN7: Driver of Choice," is wonderful ... pictures, history, taxonomy, listening tests, etc.  And at one time I had the "Octal Line Stage" that is introduced after the main article.  Anyway, based on what I'm seeing in this thread, I think a lot of folks will find this issue interesting -- and, so far as I know, the content is free and available for anyone to enjoy.
  
https://web.archive.org/web/20131122141643/http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/VTV11.pdf
  
 You'll see that I'm brand new here.  I'm starting the search for a 6SN7-based headphone amp as I've got a pretty decent collection of old stock tubes.  (They're used as drivers in my 45-based power amp and my 76-based preamp.)  So, imagine my delight to sign up today and find 379 pages worth of posts on this.  Cheers!


----------



## leftside

tubesareus said:


> Mr. left side  what is that adapter you are using for your power tubes?
> How can I get one?


 

 Here you go:
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/201511879930?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## jamato8

I have some excellent 6J5 tubes, metal base round plate etc but no room to use an adapter to go from the 6J5 to the 6SN7.


----------



## gibosi

jamato8 said:


> I have some excellent 6J5 tubes, metal base round plate etc but no room to use an adapter to go from the 6J5 to the 6SN7.


 
  
 Fortunately, my Glenn OTL has ample room to allow me to roll single triodes into a 6SN7 socket. Here, a pair of RCA 76, per your earlier recommendation, driving a quad of Sylvania 6BL7.
  
 If you would be willing to send me your 6J5 triodes, I would be happy to try them out. lol


----------



## jamato8

gibosi said:


> Fortunately, my Glenn OTL has ample room to allow me to roll single triodes into a 6SN7 socket. Here, a pair of RCA 76, per your earlier recommendation, driving a quad of Sylvania 6BL7.
> 
> If you would be willing to send me your 6J5 triodes, I would be happy to try them out. lol


 

 I have done extensive work with the 76. It needs to be at the max ratings to sound best. That means biasing and plate voltage. I also use battery bias, which is better than any capacitor or constant current source circuit, IMO and much cheaper since the batteries reach the right voltage and are trickle charged by the circuit. I have a bunch of 76 and even a very rare pair of mesh plate 76 tubes. What is my preference to all the above though is the 27 Sylvania mesh plate from 1929 to 1932. Of those I have NOS but it is also a 2.5 volt heater so there you go. :^)


----------



## gibosi

While I have my doubts that the built-in 6SN7 circuitry provides optimal biasing for the 76, even so, they sound very good in my setup. Moreover, they are very, very quiet. And as I didn't pay all that much for them, I consider them a win.


----------



## jamato8

gibosi said:


> While I have my doubts that the built-in 6SN7 circuitry provides optimal biasing for the 76, even so, they sound very good in my setup. Moreover, they are very, very quiet. And as I didn't pay all that much for them, I consider them a win.


 

 The 76 predates the 6J5 and is a tube along with the 27, that is the same line of triode type. I need to look at the specs again. At one time I could tell you everything about them from memory as I worked with them for a few years but time has marched on from then. The RCA 76 black plate is the best sounding of the bunch, IMO.


----------



## Jim Hodgson

I've been using a 76-based preamp for the last 15 years or so.  It's based on Bruce Berman's design as it appeared in Sound Practices #13.  Very simple ... one single-ended stage (1/2 6SN7) driving the 76 with cathode follower -- as I suppose the type 76 normally likes to see.
  
 I've wondered why the 76 -- along with other directly- and indirectly-heated triodes of that era -- don't show up in more headphone amps(?)  26, 27, 37, 56, 76 ... all are generally available, I think.  The 76 can be wildly microphonic (at least in my application) ... but once you've identified a civilized pair, you're pretty much set.  These are long-life tubes in my experience.  Not to mention cheap.  That is, unless you're going for Visseaux -- which sound the best to me, and unluckily, are the rarest/most expensive.


----------



## jamato8

jim hodgson said:


> I've been using a 76-based preamp for the last 15 years or so.  It's based on Bruce Berman's design as it appeared in Sound Practices #13.  Very simple ... one single-ended stage (1/2 6SN7) driving the 76 with cathode follower -- as I suppose the type 76 normally likes to see.
> 
> I've wondered why the 76 -- along with other directly- and indirectly-heated triodes of that era -- don't show up in more headphone amps(?)  26, 27, 37, 56, 76 ... all are generally available, I think.  The 76 can be wildly microphonic (at least in my application) ... but once you've identified a civilized pair, you're pretty much set.  These are long-life tubes in my experience.  Not to mention cheap.  That is, unless you're going for Visseaux -- which sound the best to me, and unluckily, are the rarest/most expensive.


 

 It depends upon where you use the 76, if it is microphonic or not. No idea why they don't show up more often. No current production most likely. Why don't you see more inductor loaded tubes vs resistor loaded? Inductor sounds much better than any resistor and isn't all that expensive and is easy or more RCLCL power supplies? Anyway, the 6SN7 is a nice tube and one of the highest production of any tube ever made so it is easier to get and use but the other you mention do proceed it and the 6SN7 does share their family of sound though I am not familiar with the 37. There is one more but I can't think of its nomenclature. It is a diode and a triode, a grid cap tube, and is also very good sounding though I prefer the 76 and the 27 to all of them. 
  
 I have a couple of sets of TS RP and went ahead and plugged in some to the micro Zotl 2 the other day. They sounded ok, not special but they needed to burn in. Much better now. Great dynamics and all the qualities you would expect. I liked them in my dac, I built the analogue output stage and can use 12 volt to 6.3 volt tubes and different type, as I can control the plate and bias and heater. But settled on the 6DJ8 family as being even more musical. I don't have that option with the MZ2  and the TS RP do a very respectable job.


----------



## Mechans1

The reason these triodes


jim hodgson said:


> I've been using a 76-based preamp for the last 15 years or so.  It's based on Bruce Berman's design as it appeared in Sound Practices #13.  Very simple ... one single-ended stage (1/2 6SN7) driving the 76 with cathode follower -- as I suppose the type 76 normally likes to see.
> 
> I've wondered why the 76 -- along with other directly- and indirectly-heated triodes of that era -- don't show up in more headphone amps(?)  26, 27, 37, 56, 76 ... all are generally available, I think.  The 76 can be wildly microphonic (at least in my application) ... but once you've identified a civilized pair, you're pretty much set.  These are long-life tubes in my experience.  Not to mention cheap.  That is, unless you're going for Visseaux -- which sound the best to me, and unluckily, are the rarest/most expensive.


 

 The reason these triodes don't appear more often is as Jamato8 said there is no current production nor in all likelihood large numbers of NOS tubes from any single  manufacturer.  The builders need reliable sources of tubes made by a manufacturer they prefer.  The QC would be very difficult without that, and I think,  they want their product to have the sound they know takes advantage of their design. 
 The scarcity of  your favorite tube demonstrates this difficulty.  If they could buy a thousand Visseaux  76 then sure, especially when they predict a run of 100 amps.in total and could supply replacements when they are faulty or get used up.


----------



## Jim Hodgson

mechans1 said:


> The reason these triodes don't appear more often is as Jamato8 said there is no current production nor in all likelihood large numbers of NOS tubes from any single  manufacturer.  The builders need reliable sources of tubes made by a manufacturer they prefer.  The QC would be very difficult without that, and I think,  they want their product to have the sound they know takes advantage of their design.
> The scarcity of  your favorite tube demonstrates this difficulty.  If they could buy a thousand Visseaux  76 then sure, especially when they predict a run of 100 amps.in total and could supply replacements when they are faulty or get used up.


 
  
 Of course I see the "no current production" point.  I wonder, though ... this seems not to have prevented builders from taking the plunge back in the early-90s and turning out 45, 2A3, 300B power amps before there was current production.  I'm pretty sure that I had a 45-based power amp about a decade before the EMLs became available.  (I hope that I'm remembering the timeline correctly?)
  
 Is that what it would take -- 1000 reliable NOS units?  Type 76 was such a common USASC tube.  I wonder about stock at the macro level.
  
 They don't have to be Visseaux.  In my experience, JAN-anything works perfectly well and is almost infinitely more available.
  
 Anyway!  Not to be argumentative.  This is simply something I'd like to see.  So, I support the idea ... that's all.


----------



## tubesareus

tubesareus said:


> Mr. left side  what is that adapter you are using for your power tubes?
> How can I get one?


 

 Here you go:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/201511879930?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


      
  
 Thank you. 
 How well does it work in your WA22 ? Any potential issues with 2 6SN7 drowing too much power ?  I would use it in WA2...   it uses same power tubes.


----------



## leftside

Check out the 6BL7 thread 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806043/for-6bl7-tube-users/225#post_12631570


----------



## jamato8

I just ordered some adapters for my 6J5 and 76 to 6SN7. I looked and realized I have a lot of each in round plate and the charcoal black type of plate. I have some 6J5 round plate with clear mica spacers and metal bases. These are from the early 1940's. I have 76 RCA in round plate, that are also excellent and then Tungsol, Sylvania and on and on. Should be interesting as I haven't used either tube types in a long time but I have all these NOS so why not.


----------



## gibosi

I, for one, look forward to learning how you think these tubes, especially the 76, perform in circuits designed for the 6SN7.
  
 I have only one pair, RCA 76, round plate, dated 1943, and find them to be similar to a 1943 RCA VT-231/6SN7GT, but with better highs.


----------



## jamato8

gibosi said:


> I, for one, look forward to learning how you think these tubes, especially the 76, perform in circuits designed for the 6SN7.
> 
> I have only one pair, RCA 76, round plate, dated 1943, and find them to be similar to a 1943 RCA VT-231/6SN7GT, but with better highs.


 

 The operating points are the same for the 6SN7 and the 76 and 6J5. The difference will be in the longer signal path and different plate design etc but on electrical properties they are pretty much the same, which is a good thing.


----------



## MP1968

I have an Icon Audio HP8 mk ii and am always interested in rolling a few tubes.  For those unfamiliar with the amp it has an ECC83 for the first stage, and 2 6SN7s for the output.
  
 So would four of these 76 or 6J5 tubes be suitable replacements for the two 6SN7s, or am I taking a risk?
  
 I've found the relevant adaptors on eBay:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-RCA-76-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/201398487020?hash=item2ee44907ec:g:XOcAAOSwyQtVvETC
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-L63-CV1932-VR67-VT154-TO-6SN7GT-CV181-B65-tube-adapter-/201359298646?hash=item2ee1f31056:g:kckAAOSwN81WEJ7U
  
 Unfortunately the seller doesn't give total width of these.  I have around a 4 cm gap on the top plate of the Icon, between the two tube sockets.  For those who have these adaptors is that wide enough?


----------



## jamato8

mp1968 said:


> I have an Icon Audio HP8 mk ii and am always interested in rolling a few tubes.  For those unfamiliar with the amp it has an ECC83 for the first stage, and 2 6SN7s for the output.
> 
> So would four of these 76 or 6J5 tubes be suitable replacements for the two 6SN7s, or am I taking a risk?
> 
> ...


 

 The adapters can be rotated some so if you can use them offset to make more room you are good. The heater current of the 76 and 6J5 are half that of a 6SN7 and the operating points for the cathode and plate and current draw are the same so 2X76 or 6J5 are the same as the 6SN7. I have some killer 6J5 and 76 I am looking forward to using. I have around 40 NOS RCA 76 alone. Most were made by RCA but mine I tested years ago as are the 6J5 so they are already matched and ready to go.


----------



## gibosi

mp1968 said:


> I have an Icon Audio HP8 mk ii and am always interested in rolling a few tubes...
> 
> So would four of these 76 or 6J5 tubes be suitable replacements for the two 6SN7s, or am I taking a risk?
> 
> ...


 
  
 The major difference I see is that the 76 has a mu of about 13.8 while the 6SN7 has a mu of about 20. This may or may not require the volume control to be turned up higher. However, in my amp, this difference is very small. Otherwise, I can't see that there is any risk at all, other than they may not sound all that good in your amp...
  
 The real challenge, as I see it, is that it might be difficult to find 4 fairly well-matched tubes, at least on eBay. (It would appear that Jamato has already purchased all the good ones? lol) By fairly well-matched, I mean, four tubes manufactured in the same factory at about the same time that measure reasonably close. And given that there is always the chance that one or more might be noisy and/or microphonic, you might want to try to purchase more than 4....
  
 As you can see below, the tubes themselves are fairly narrow, extending just a smidge beyond the edges of the adapter when installed.
  
 This adapter dimension (width?) is just under 3.5 cm.
  

  
 And this dimension (length?) is just under 8.5 cm


----------



## Jozurr

Just placed orders for the Ken-Rad VT231 and RCA Grey Glass 6SNGT (Pre 1948) pairs. Looking forward to buying more 6SN7 or tubes which can be used instead on my liquid glass or with 6SN7 adapters.
  
 The sound I'm after, hard hitting bass slam and smooth non sibilant highs. Anyone got recommendations for something better than what I have on order?


----------



## jamato8

gibosi said:


> The major difference I see is that the 76 has a mu of about 13.8 while the 6SN7 has a mu of about 20. This may or may not require the volume control to be turned up higher. However, in my amp, this difference is very small. Otherwise, I can't see that there is any risk at all, other than they may not sound all that good in your amp...
> 
> The real challenge, as I see it, is that it might be difficult to find 4 fairly well-matched tubes, at least on eBay. (It would appear that Jamato has already purchased all the good ones? lol) By fairly well-matched, I mean, four tubes manufactured in the same factory at about the same time that measure reasonably close. And given that there is always the chance that one or more might be noisy and/or microphonic, you might want to try to purchase more than 4....


 
 True enough. But often two halves of the same tube aren't that well matched and unless the circuit requires that the two halves be matched, which often isn't the real need, 2 single triodes should work fine. Also as they are used they will drift anyway but I agree that getting them close never hurts. I can check them on my very modified 439C, with digital meters to get everything pretty close although I can't do a trace, obviously but for normal use it works fine using my Hickok. 
  
 Yep, I have a crazy number of 76 and 6J5 but they, at the time, weren't too expensive and I like both tubes. I am glad I picked them up. I must have around 100 76 tubes and 50 6J5. Of the 6J5 I have some really nice European versions in ST but I am looking forward to trying the Sylvania tubes from the early 1940's. I don't find that mu always, within reason, will play that big a difference but for my own amps, I have always found that with the 76 and 6J5, getting them close to max dissipation, gets the best sound and I mean right on the edge but there is a transparency and realism that getting close to the max reveals.


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Just placed orders for the Ken-Rad VT231 and RCA Grey Glass 6SNGT (Pre 1948) pairs. Looking forward to buying more 6SN7 or tubes which can be used instead on my liquid glass or with 6SN7 adapters.
> 
> The sound I'm after, hard hitting bass slam and smooth non sibilant highs. Anyone got recommendations for something better than what I have on order?


 
  
 Mullard ECC32 or Mullard ECC31. The ECC31 is identical to the ECC32, but with a different pinout (common cathode), so an adapter is necessary. As the ECC31 requires an adapter, it is typically less costly. But as always, my ears and my gear... YMMV.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> Mullard ECC32 or Mullard ECC31. The ECC31 is identical to the ECC32, but with a different pinout (common cathode), so an adapter is necessary. As the ECC31 requires an adapter, it is typically less costly. But as always, my ears and my gear... YMMV.


 
  
 I did try the Mullard CV181 and it was very nice. I think better than the RCA 5692 brown base I currently have.
  
 Some others on my very small list (hopefully) are the Tung-Sol round plates 6SN6GT and the Sylvania 6SN7W. I believe both are said to have a nice bass impact and open sound.
  
 Edit: Missed the question. Are there any "equivalents" of these Sylvania and CV181? @jamato8 mentioned that the 6F8G version of the Tung-Sol are similar with 6SN7 adapters, so looking into those.


----------



## Jim Hodgson

mp1968 said:


> Unfortunately the seller doesn't give total width of these.  I have around a 4 cm gap on the top plate of the Icon, between the two tube sockets.  For those who have these adaptors is that wide enough?


 
  
 I've been searching online for a picture of the HP8 MKII with the 6SN7 sockets exposed.  No luck.  How are the keyway recesses oriented -- toward the front?  This will obviously have an impact on whether these adapters will fit.  I figure you've already considered this ... I guess I'm just curious.


----------



## jamato8

jim hodgson said:


> I've been searching online for a picture of the HP8 MKII with the 6SN7 sockets exposed.  No luck.  How are the keyway recesses oriented -- toward the front?  This will obviously have an impact on whether these adapters will fit.  I figure you've already considered this ... I guess I'm just curious.


 

 Some of the adapters can be rotated some, the top plate in relation to the plug.


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> I did try the Mullard CV181 and it was very nice. I think better than the RCA 5692 brown base I currently have.
> 
> Some others on my very small list (hopefully) are the Tung-Sol round plates 6SN6GT and the Sylvania 6SN7W. I believe both are said to have a nice bass impact and open sound.
> 
> Edit: Missed the question. Are there any "equivalents" of these Sylvania and CV181? @jamato8 mentioned that the 6F8G version of the Tung-Sol are similar with 6SN7 adapters, so looking into those.


 
  
 IMO the TS RPBG 6SN7GT and Syl 6SN7W have very good bass, but neither has the bass slam of say, the Ken Rad or the ECC32. Still, they are both very fine tubes.
  
 In my experience, for most manufacturers, the 6F8G and the 6SN7 sound almost identical. For example, while some hear differences between the round-plate versions of the TS 6F8G and the 6SN7, given my ears and gear, these differences are too small for me to be able to reliably differentiate between them. The major exception is the National Union 6F8G. It sounds significantly different than either the gray-glass or the later black-glass NU 6SN7GT, Some prefer the NU 6F8G over either of the NU 6SN7, and in fact, some prefer it over the TS 6F8G/6SN7.
  
 Therefore, given my ears, other than the NU, the only reason to purchase the 6F8G is that typically they can be had for a bit less than the 6SN7. That said, the NU 6F8G is different enough that it might be worth checking out.
  
 One last thought....  In some amps, the 6C8G sounds about the same as the 6F8G, and they are even less expensive. The 6C8g uses the same adapter as the 6F8G. However, the 6C8G has an amplification factor of 36, so it is not a direct plug-in replacement for the 6F8G/6SN7, with an amplification factor of 20. But then, the ECC32, with an amplification factor of 32, plus a number of other differences, is also not a direct plug-in replacement. And yet, many love the sound of the ECC32 in a 6SN7 socket. So the 6C8G might also be worth a try...
  
 Cheers


----------



## ken6217

I find the best for my amp are Tung Sol 6SL7 GT Round Plate Black Glass. Hard to find. Glad I stocked up.


----------



## gibosi

ken6217 said:


> I find the best for my amp are Tung Sol 6SL7 GT Round Plate Black Glass. Hard to find. Glad I stocked up.


 
  
 Just a note: The 6SL7 has an amplification factor of 70 while the 6SN7 has an amplification factor of 20, that is, 3.5 times higher. But again, many folks use these tubes in their 6SN7-based amps with very good results.


----------



## ken6217

gibosi said:


> Just a note: The 6SL7 has an amplification factor of 70 while the 6SN7 has an amplification factor of 20, that is, 3.5 times higher. But again, many folks use these tubes in their 6SN7-based amps with very good results.


 

 I know it has higher gain. I have the TS RP as well and even though they sound nice, I find the 6SL7 sounds better for me.


----------



## gibosi

And you can count me among those who have rolled 6SL7 in place of 6SN7. And I would agree that the TS RPBG 6SL7 is a great tube. 
  
 The point I want to make is that even tubes that seem to be quite different from a 6SN7 often work very well. In addition to the 6C8G, 6SL7, ECC32 and 76, I have recently rolled 2C51, ECC40, ECC804, E80CC, E182CC, 5687, 5694, 6463 and a large variety of standard and premium versions of the 6DJ8 family, and I have been very pleasantly amazed at how good they sound in a 6SN7 socket. And if one takes a bit more time to carefully select complementary rectifiers and output tubes, the results can often be outstanding.
  
 So for those folks who are looking for new tubes to roll, I would suggest that it can be very rewarding to think outside the box.
  
 Cheers


----------



## jamato8

gibosi said:


> And you can count me among those who have rolled 6SL7 in place of 6SN7. And I would agree that the TS RPBG 6SL7 is a great tube.
> 
> The point I want to make is that even tubes that seem to be quite different from a 6SN7 often work very well. In addition to the 6C8G, 6SL7, ECC32 and 76, I have recently rolled 2C51, ECC40, ECC804, E80CC, E182CC, 5687, 5694, 6463 and a large variety of standard and premium versions of the 6DJ8 family, and I have been very pleasantly amazed at how good they sound in a 6SN7 socket. And if one takes a bit more time to carefully select complementary rectifiers and output tubes, the results can often be outstanding.
> 
> ...


 

 The operating points of the 6DJ8 type is pretty close. I prefer the 6DJ8 to the 6SN7 as to me, the 6DJ8 is even more musical and more alive but it won't work in all situations and people shouldn't get the idea that if the tube fits, try it.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> IMO the TS RPBG 6SN7GT and Syl 6SN7W have very good bass, but neither has the bass slam of say, the Ken Rad or the ECC32. Still, they are both very fine tubes.
> 
> In my experience, for most manufacturers, the 6F8G and the 6SN7 sound almost identical. For example, while some hear differences between the round-plate versions of the TS 6F8G and the 6SN7, given my ears and gear, these differences are too small for me to be able to reliably differentiate between them. The major exception is the National Union 6F8G. It sounds significantly different than either the gray-glass or the later black-glass NU 6SN7GT, Some prefer the NU 6F8G over either of the NU 6SN7, and in fact, some prefer it over the TS 6F8G/6SN7.
> 
> ...




The Mullard ECC32 seem to be US 800 a pair and the ECC31 about USD 500 a pair (used with adapters?)

What would be a variant of those that can be rolled instead of the 6SN7 type?


----------



## dminches

I prefer the ECC32 over any 6SN7 other than the TS BGRP.
  
 $800 per pair seems high.  I could sell you a sightly used pair for half of that.


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> The Mullard ECC32 seem to be US 800 a pair and the ECC31 about USD 500 a pair (used with adapters?)
> 
> What would be a variant of those that can be rolled instead of the 6SN7 type?


 
  
 The ECC31 is essentially a 6N7G. In fact, they were considered to be interchangeable and the same adapter will work for both. In fact, here is an ECC31 labeled as a 6N7G
  

  
 The ECC32 is a modified ECC31, with separate cathodes. The only tube I am aware of that could be considered similar to the ECC32 is the Raytheon 5694, which is a modified 6N7G with separate cathodes. However, the 5694 is very rare and requires yet another adapter to be used in a 6SN7 socket.
  

  
 Edit: Also, the 6A6 is the direct predecessor to the 6N7G and they are electrically identical. However, it has a 7-pin base, so an adapter will be necessary.
  
 Here is a nice pair of National Union 6A6 with engraved bases.


----------



## MP1968

jamato8 said:


> True enough. But often two halves of the same tube aren't that well matched and unless the circuit requires that the two halves be matched, which often isn't the real need, 2 single triodes should work fine. Also as they are used they will drift anyway but I agree that getting them close never hurts. I can check them on my very modified 439C, with digital meters to get everything pretty close although I can't do a trace, obviously but for normal use it works fine using my Hickok.
> 
> Yep, I have a crazy number of 76 and 6J5 but they, at the time, weren't too expensive and I like both tubes. I am glad I picked them up. I must have around 100 76 tubes and 50 6J5. Of the 6J5 I have some really nice European versions in ST but I am looking forward to trying the Sylvania tubes from the early 1940's. I don't find that mu always, within reason, will play that big a difference but for my own amps, I have always found that with the 76 and 6J5, getting them close to max dissipation, gets the best sound and I mean right on the edge but there is a transparency and realism that getting close to the max reveals.


 
  
 In my Icon HP8 I've tried various 6SN7s: Brimar CV1988, Ken Rad VT231, Sylvania Bad Boys, CBS 5692, Sylvania Chrome Dome, Tung Sol Mouse Ear, RCA VT231.
  
 From gibosi it seems that 6F8Gs (apart from the NU) are generally very close to the 6SN7 sound, and hence perhaps I'll try a different direction.  
  
 I wouldn't be anticipating night and day differences, but what would you suggest in the 76 and 6J5 department which would offer a nice alternative flavour to what I've tried so far?
  
 On the Project Ember thread the Zenith and Visseaux 6J5 seem to be highly thought of, for example. Unfortunately the Visseaux doesn't seem to come cheap.


----------



## jamato8

mp1968 said:


> In my Icon HP8 I've tried various 6SN7s: Brimar CV1988, Ken Rad VT231, Sylvania Bad Boys, CBS 5692, Sylvania Chrome Dome, Tung Sol Mouse Ear, RCA VT231.
> 
> From gibosi it seems that 6F8Gs (apart from the NU) are generally very close to the 6SN7 sound, and hence perhaps I'll try a different direction.
> 
> ...


 

 For some reason a go towards the 76. A little more transparent and clean sounding. But it all depends upon the circuit. 
  
 I have some of the 6J5 in coke bottle, military grey glass from Europe. They weren't cheap years ago and I never see them for sale. Some even have the silver right above the filament. As soon as they are tested they form some. Many people think this mean the tube is used. It doesn't  mean that all the time. I will be curious to try out the grey glass coke bottle 6J5. Z 6J5G 10D/348 CV/1067 is on the tube.
  
 Now I remember, My grey glass 65JG are G.E.C. They were military bulk packed. Purchased from Microtronics, who has been out of business for some time.


----------



## leftside

dminches said:


> I prefer the ECC32 over any 6SN7 other than the TS BGRP.
> 
> $800 per pair seems high.  I could sell you a sightly used pair for half of that.


 

 I've been buying a lot of tubes the last few months, and $800 is a little high. Having said that, I have paid a lot for a genuine NOS/NIB (never opened) ECC32 from a trusted seller. But, you should get much cheaper for a lightly used pair. Also check out the entire ECC31-ECC35 range of tubes. They are some of my favorites and sometimes good deals appears (nice pairs for $200 - $300). I created this thread and will be posting some more pics later:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/808322/ecc31-ecc32-ecc33-ecc34-ecc35-tube-addicts


----------



## r one

Gibosi, your collection make me dream


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> Gibosi, your collection make me dream


 
  
 Thanks! 
  
 And here is another off-the-wall tube that performs very nicely in a 6SN7 socket, *IF* you are able to provide 12.6 volt heater current. The FDD20 is a Philips-made (Milan, Italy) 12 volt version of the 6N7G, It has a weird European side-contact base (P8A), and the adapter is pretty ugly, but to my ears, it is a very good sounding tube.
  

  
 Plus it has a rather pretty blue tinting...


----------



## whirlwind

r one said:


> Gibosi, your collection make me dream


 
 Yeah, gibosi has a wonderful library of tubes and an amp that can use them all


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> The ECC31 is essentially a 6N7G. In fact, they were considered to be interchangeable and the same adapter will work for both. In fact, here is an ECC31 labeled as a 6N7G


 
  
 So what do you thin is a better way to go if I need the Mullard CV181, go for the 6SN7=ECC32 or the ECC31 with an adapter? Or whatever is cheaper between the two if I dont care about using adapters?
  


mp1968 said:


> In my Icon HP8 I've tried various 6SN7s: *Brimar CV1988, Ken Rad VT231, Sylvania Bad Boys, CBS 5692, Sylvania Chrome Dome, Tung Sol Mouse Ear, RCA VT231.*
> 
> From gibosi it seems that 6F8Gs (apart from the NU) are generally very close to the 6SN7 sound, and hence perhaps I'll try a different direction.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can you post some comparative impressions between them like bass slam, soundstage etc or a one liner defining sound? I've read about them individually, but would be nice to read a quick comparison if it doesn't take too long.


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> So what do you thin is a better way to go if I need the Mullard CV181, go for the 6SN7=ECC32 or the ECC31 with an adapter? Or whatever is cheaper between the two if I dont care about using adapters?


 
  
 Go for whatever is cheapest, of course.


----------



## MP1968

jozurr said:


> So what do you thin is a better way to go if I need the Mullard CV181, go for the 6SN7=ECC32 or the ECC31 with an adapter? Or whatever is cheaper between the two if I dont care about using adapters?
> 
> 
> Can you post some comparative impressions between them like bass slam, soundstage etc or a one liner defining sound? I've read about them individually, but would be nice to read a quick comparison if it doesn't take too long.


 
  
 At the moment I can't give you much clear guidance, as I haven't yet systematically switched around different tubes during my listening sessions to try and work out the differences.  It's also complicated by the fact that I've been switching around different ECC83s in my amp as well, and rotating headphones.  Too many variables, basically.
  
 The only things I can say at the moment are to confirm that yes the Ken Rad VT231 has great bass response, and the black glass Brimar CV1988 has a definite warm musicality about it.  I think the pair which I've put in my amp and had an immediate 'this is good' reaction to (i.e. trying to put aside new toy syndrome) is the Sylvania 1952 Chrome Dome.  I bought these for a reasonable price compared to some of the others, and I'd say that's been the best value so far.
  
 I also tend to find myself reaching more regularly for the CBS 5692.  
  
 Hope that's vaguely helpful.


----------



## Jozurr

Has anyone compared the Sylvania 6SN7W and the Tung-sol BGRP? Which one has better bass definition and bass slam? I've been reading good things about both, but I'm trying to narrow it down to either one of them. I listen to mostly electronic music so bass slam and clean treble is essential.


----------



## r one

gibosi said:


> IMO the TS RPBG 6SN7GT and Syl 6SN7W have very good bass, but neither has the bass slam of say, the Ken Rad or the ECC32. Still, they are both very fine tubes.
> 
> In my experience, for most manufacturers, the 6F8G and the 6SN7 sound almost identical. For example, while some hear differences between the round-plate versions of the TS 6F8G and the 6SN7, given my ears and gear, these differences are too small for me to be able to reliably differentiate between them.


 
 These are some pictures  of some of my rp's : 6SN7 and 6F8g



 Left is a rebranded Tung-sol for Hyvac and right is a Tung-sol VT99 : both are round plate. Structures, plates, micas are fully identical but to my ears and in my system there are some differences.
 I find that the 6SN7 give a little more 3d sound, a little more details, and bass is a little more deeper. Both sound identical at 95% i would say, but these 5% make a little difference and i prefer the 6SN7 version. But sure, i could live with the 6F8G : one of the best preamp tube i use with the Balancing Act.
  I have the Ken-Rad too, i prefer the tung-sol too, i find the ken-rad bass less defined and controlled in my audio system.
  
 @Jozzur, your question is interesting. I haven't heard sylania's 6Sn7w, (i have a VT231 sylvania with bottom getter), but for a high definition in all frequencies, tung-sol tubes have my recommendation : usually, they sound very technical. You could try 6F8G flate plates for example, it's not a pricey tube


----------



## Mechans1

jozurr said:


> Has anyone compared the Sylvania 6SN7W and the Tung-sol BGRP? Which one has better bass definition and bass slam? I've been reading good things about both, but I'm trying to narrow it down to either one of them. I listen to mostly electronic music so bass slam and clean treble is essential.


 

 They are both extraordinary 6SN7s.  I have stayed with 6SN7s for about 13-14 years, I love the tone.with the only exception being, a few ECC32s and ECC33s. Before I answer your question I want to say the 5SN7 was made by the trillions,, the reason being I understand is that 6SN7s are the linearity  champions..  That said  I have run into advocates for the 6F8G..who really swear by them
 The two tubes you are interested in are prolly the finest 6SN7s if you don't include B65s and other esoterics like the Swedish Standard.
  
 What makes Ws and the TS round plate, wonderful tubes is their balance and truthful reproduction. 
 I do own at least 7 TSRPs, however  I don't think I know enough or have tubes in good playing shape.
 soundstaging tube with better than excellent  holographjic imaging, with treble extension I like to call crystalline.  The midrange is fairly similar but at a lower.  In case you hadn't guessed this I really like this tube.  The one area that is not particularly superb is your friend bass.  It is not heavy or extended to my ears but bass is not missing in Action, normal and pleasing to me, but I am prejudice, some would as do I it is in proper balance wlth the other elements  .It is not a Ken Rad., but not comaljy MIA.
 I have a number of TS RP,  They are so variable  i.e, depending on condition that I don't think I am qualifird to write any kind of critique or review.  I will say the condition is critical.  I initially did some bottom fishing and found a few a reasonable prices-no honestly about $30-40 per tube.  all but one sounded like a tired GE at best. And that was the good one in terms of GM. 
 I gave in and bought from a supplier who really had real as could be really  new TSRPs short bottles NIB,  Yes Virginia they really exist. 
 It had more bottom end but the W did the best a lot better imho.  however most think the TSRP is a better tube.  I own 30 Ws with about 8 with metal base/  I asked a headphone amp builder if he thought I was hoarding? He said all I was doing was making deposits into my tube account, and there is no  Shame in that.
_ know there are very big fans of the Tungsol RP, I hope they chime in.  Getting  an ordinary one is no problem, getting a really good takes really good connections or possibly really good luck._


----------



## jamato8

The problem with buying used tubes is that they can measure great, even like new, but there is some musicality taken, unless they have been run correctly in the circuit and don't have a bunch of hours. I have slightly used TS RP and NOS. The NOS were in the circuit just long enough to hear them and there isn't any real difference in my lightly used and these but I have others that measure great and sound flat. You just never know how they were used and in what type of circuit. I have to add that to me, TS RP are just a pretty tube. I have 1952 Sylvania and they are drier sounding. They aren't as musical or as fluid but this also depends upon the circuit. Some people really like the grey glass 6SN7 but I find them too warm and mushy sounding and I have NOS. It is all good. And yes, as mentioned above, they made a huge number of the 6SN7.


----------



## Jozurr

mechans1 said:


> They are both extraordinary 6SN7s.  I have stayed with 6SN7s for about 13-14 years, I love the tone.with the only exception being, a few ECC32s and ECC33s. Before I answer your question I want to say the 5SN7 was made by the trillions,, the reason being I understand is that 6SN7s are the linearity  champions..  That said  I have run into advocates for the 6F8G..who really swear by them
> The two tubes you are interested in are prolly the finest 6SN7s if you don't include B65s and other esoterics like the Swedish Standard.
> 
> What makes Ws and the TS round plate, wonderful tubes is their balance and truthful reproduction.
> ...


 
  
 Im currently using the RCA 5692, but bass seams very lean and I miss the bass impact. I've read similar impressions that the 6SN7W do bass better than the TS BGRP (Second only to the Ken-Rad VT-231 and Mullard ECC32?), although the TS BGRP might be superior overall. Bass is important to me as I listen to mostly Techno, and currently my solid state LC amp is doing better bass than the liquid glass with RCA 5692 or Electro Harmonix 6SN7. I have the ken-rads on order too so will wait and see how that goes. Seems like I should hunt down a pair of the W as well. Can't seem to find either the TS BGRP or the Sylvania 6SN7W for a reasonable price.


----------



## jamato8

jozurr said:


> Im currently using the RCA 5692, but bass seams very lean and I miss the bass impact. I've read similar impressions that the 6SN7W do bass better than the TS BGRP (Second only to the Ken-Rad VT-231 and Mullard ECC32?), although the TS BGRP might be superior overall. Bass is important to me as I listen to mostly Techno, and currently my solid state LC amp is doing better bass than the liquid glass with RCA 5692 or Electro Harmonix 6SN7. I have the ken-rads on order too so will wait and see how that goes. Seems like I should hunt down a pair of the W as well. Can't seem to find either the TS BGRP or the Sylvania 6SN7W for a reasonable price.


 

 It isn't just the tube. It is also to the circuit being used.


----------



## Jozurr

jamato8 said:


> It isn't just the tube. It is also to the circuit being used.




The Liquid glass is said to be very transparent and sounds just like the tubes in it do. My DAC is an R2R with slightly warm tonality. Ideally, the exact sound of the tubes should come through. Based on what Im reading, the ECC32/KR-VT231 do bass the best and the Sylvania 6SN7W come close with slam, unless Im missing tubes which are in between.


----------



## Mechans1

jamato8 said:


> It isn't just the tube. It is also to the circuit being used.


 

 I think your expectations for subwoofer sound from pumping 10 inch excursion is not a function of which 6SN7 you choose.  The special reds were intended for longer life including applying only 300 volts to the plate.  They are nice but soft warm and wooly but not a bass shy tube at .all.
 My advice -and this is not a joke, ( don't be insulted)  Get a Ken Rad, for your current set up,, black looks nice but clear glass sounds exactly the same.  Get the bassiest Headphones you can and you may ultimately be happier with a solid state amp.  Tube amp circuits are usually not designed  or voiced with techno or any other very bass heavy, dependent music like that.  Don;t be ashamed of what you like,  its your happiness,  and it's your money that buys your amp.  Who gives a **** if it isn't stylish at the momet F EM All!.


----------



## jamato8

mechans1 said:


> I think your expectations for subwoofer sound from pumping 10 inch excursion is not a function of which 6SN7 you choose.  The special reds were intended for longer life including applying only 300 volts to the plate.  They are nice but soft warm and wooly but not a bass shy tube at .all.
> My advice -and this is not a joke, ( don't be insulted)  Get a Ken Rad, for your current set up,, black looks nice but clear glass sounds exactly the same.  Get the bassiest Headphones you can and you may ultimately be happier with a solid state amp.  Tube amp circuits are usually not designed  or voiced with techno or any other very bass heavy, dependent music like that.  Don;t be ashamed of what you like,  its your happiness,  and it's your money that buys your amp.  Who gives a **** if it isn't stylish at the momet F EM All!.


 

 I think you quoted/responded to the wrong person. Yes, people often use the 5692 in the wrong circuit. They won't get the 10,000 hours unless used as it was intended to be used and I don't like the sound from them as well.


----------



## Mechans1

jamato8 said:


> The problem with buying used tubes is that they can measure great, even like new, but there is some musicality taken, unless they have been run correctly in the circuit and don't have a bunch of hours. I have slightly used TS RP and NOS. The NOS were in the circuit just long enough to hear them and there isn't any real difference in my lightly used and these but I have others that measure great and sound flat. You just never know how they were used and in what type of circuit. I have to add that to me, TS RP are just a pretty tube. I have 1952 Sylvania and they are drier sounding. They aren't as musical or as fluid but this also depends upon the circuit. Some people really like the grey glass 6SN7 but I find them too warm and mushy sounding  you more about buying used tubes. I have NOS. It is all good. And yes, as mentioned above, they made a huge number of the 6SN7.


 

 I couldn't agree with more concerning buying used tubes. This is a really big issue with 6SN7s,  you would not believe the difference in sound I can demonstrate with 2 pairs of Tung Sol RPs both having  'nos'  transconductance or gm values.  While it remains true that real New Old Stock tubes usually sound as that tube is expected and  anticipated to sound. It isn't always true. 
 That said- don't do what I did which was  '' Hoovering" up any tube that looked like a god deal. I bought waaay tooo many- OK sounding but average- examples.  These and other 'small signal' signal tubes are rated for as many as 10,000 hours of use.  That is a long time.
 I suggest that you do your homework, deal with well established sellers who have a reputation to preserve, and save up until you can true NOS and NIB tubes that  you want.   If you don't destroy them you can resell them for about what you paid.  Even if a small loss is involved you won't end up with scores of mediocre tubes which were junk when bought and are still junk when you want to sell them..  The problem is that those OK but not so great tubes you might have collected at $30 a pop, represent real money eventually.
  
  I don't know which  1952 Sylvania you mean.  I'll assume you mean the 3 rivet bottom getter GT,  These are the true Bad Boys.  I have multiples of those as well of course.  And NOS NIB I would beg to differ regarding their musical nature and their ability to draw you in, frequently call involvement.
 I don't know any grey glass Sylvanias.  Do you mean the Grey Glass NU, if so your description is dead on.  I own two pair of those.  RCA makes a 'musical grey glass, they and the graphite versions, don't get me excited either.
 Maybe I ought to start a lending service.,  How much should I charge, and the fair market value of the tubes must be paid first or held in escrow.


----------



## leftside

I like techno. I like ECC31, ECC32, ECC33, ECC34 and ECC35  I have a couple of tube headphone amps and a solid state headphone amp. The bass in the Woo tube headphone amp is great with the tubes I have.


----------



## Mechans1

leftside said:


> I like techno. I like ECC31, ECC32, ECC33, ECC34 and ECC35  I have a couple of tube headphone amps and a solid state headphone amp. The bass in the Woo tube headphone amp is great with the tubes I have.


 

 I own ECC 32s and ECC 33, Neither I understand have the same electrical parameters of a 6SN7.  I also understand that the gain for ECC32s is significantly greater than a 6SN7 making them in effect a louder tube, I would imagine that helps re the power needed to deliver lots of deep bass. The other tubes you mentioned the 34, and 35 are closer to the 6SL7 if I recall correctly.
 What 6SN7s do you use with your Techno Pop?  Are the British tubes the only ones you use?


----------



## Jozurr

leftside said:


> I like techno. I like ECC31, ECC32, ECC33, ECC34 and ECC35  I have a couple of tube headphone amps and a solid state headphone amp. The bass in the Woo tube headphone amp is great with the tubes I have.




Between them, which ones do you like best?



mechans1 said:


> I own ECC 32s and ECC 33, Neither I understand have the same electrical parameters of a 6SN7.  I also understand that the gain for ECC32s is significantly greater than a 6SN7 making them in effect a louder tube, I would imagine that helps re the power needed to deliver lots of deep bass. The other tubes you mentioned the 34, and 35 are closer to the 6SL7 if I recall correctly.
> *What 6SN7s do you use with your Techno Pop?  Are the British tubes the only ones you use?*




Same question as well.


----------



## leftside

Yes, I understand the ECC tubes are not exactly 6SN7. You'll have to find out if they work in your amp. The ECC35 is indeed a 6SL7. If I had to choose my favorites it would be the ECC32 and ECC35, but they are all great tubes. The power tubes also impact the bass. I'm running a quad of 6BL7's.
  
 I'm not a fan of techno pop. This is the type of techno I like:


----------



## Jozurr

leftside said:


> Yes, I understand the ECC tubes are not exactly 6SN7. You'll have to find out if they work in your amp. The ECC35 is indeed a 6SL7. If I had to choose my favorites it would be the ECC32 and ECC35, but they are all great tubes. The power tubes also impact the bass. I'm running a quad of 6BL7's.
> 
> I'm not a fan of techno pop. This is the type of techno I like:




  
 You have wonderful taste in techno 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just the kind I like! Some days I just feel like getting a funktion one system for my room fitting for its size and be done with it. No more Berlin cravings. 
  
 Going to give the ECC32 a good detailed run in my Glass.


----------



## leftside

Come join us 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/727918/techno-electro-underground-beats


----------



## jamato8

mechans1 said:


> I couldn't agree with more concerning buying used tubes. This is a really big issue with 6SN7s,  you would not believe the difference in sound I can demonstrate with 2 pairs of Tung Sol RPs both having  'nos'  transconductance or gm values.  While it remains true that real New Old Stock tubes usually sound as that tube is expected and  anticipated to sound. It isn't always true.
> That said- don't do what I did which was  '' Hoovering" up any tube that looked like a god deal. I bought waaay tooo many- OK sounding but average- examples.  These and other 'small signal' signal tubes are rated for as many as 10,000 hours of use.  That is a long time.
> I suggest that you do your homework, deal with well established sellers who have a reputation to preserve, and save up until you can true NOS and NIB tubes that  you want.   If you don't destroy them you can resell them for about what you paid.  Even if a small loss is involved you won't end up with scores of mediocre tubes which were junk when bought and are still junk when you want to sell them..  The problem is that those OK but not so great tubes you might have collected at $30 a pop, represent real money eventually.
> 
> ...


 

 I am trying another NOS pair of the Sylvania. Fresh out of box with over 60 years of crust on them. lol


----------



## Jozurr

leftside said:


> Come join us
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/727918/techno-electro-underground-beats




Just saw that! Will be going through all those pages


----------



## Mechans1

jamato8 said:


> I am trying another NOS pair of the Sylvania. Fresh out of box with over 60 years of crust on them. lol


 

 Is It a stuffed crust?  Well can't be any gold pin but I can' think of single gold pin 6SN7 at the moment.    Use a fiberglass eraser pencil.  It isn't easy but the results are good.  Make sure your tube sockets are tensioned esp. if their was true metal loss on the pin.   I recommend searching the Audio Asylum Tube Asylum about tensioning techniques.  It doesn't sound hard. to do.  Art Stores and Amazon have the fiberglass eraser pencils.
 Can you get a good Sylvania W to try?  They are better than the Bad Boy IMHO.  While you on the Asylum check out the dissection of a 52 (really late 51 to mid 53BTW)  Bottom  fetter GT.  The Earliest Sylvania GTs made for non military use are the original chrome domes and are constructed just like a W.  Those are reallyu great but I have only managed to buy one pair in all these years. (early on before I realized what I truly had. Good luck.
  
 I never went for the overhyped Chinese stuff in a fancy box, I think the earliest fancy pants tube has gold plated pins..


----------



## Jozurr

http://m.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matched-Pair-Sylvania-Mil-Spec-6SN7W-2-Rivet-T-Bad-Boy-S-Rods-Vacuum-Tubes-/152091797407?nav=SEARCH

Are these the popular sylvania 6sn7w? What is the correct way to identify them? confused about the wording mentioning bad boys


----------



## Mechans1

I will leave you guys to discuss Techno Pop .  It is clearly your forte.  Are those very Bass heavy headphones good for that music?  My som's generation seems to prefer them  millennials. I have offered him some pretty good head phones but he says he can't use them . BeyerDynamics-   DT 770 Pro 32 Ohm special ed. '
 I occasionally listen to some rowdy music.  For the hell of it I tried live Gearge Thorogood  with Monoprice $15-20 IIRC, forget model using a SinglePower  Extreme Amp and good CD player.  It was acceptable honest. No I wasn't drunk or had an altered sensorium/


----------



## jamato8

mechans1 said:


> Is It a stuffed crust?  Well can't be any gold pin but I can' think of single gold pin 6SN7 at the moment.    Use a fiberglass eraser pencil.  It isn't easy but the results are good.  Make sure your tube sockets are tensioned esp. if their was true metal loss on the pin.   I recommend searching the Audio Asylum Tube Asylum about tensioning techniques.  It doesn't sound hard. to do.  Art Stores and Amazon have the fiberglass eraser pencils.
> Can you get a good Sylvania W to try?  They are better than the Bad Boy IMHO.  While you on the Asylum check out the dissection of a 52 (really late 51 to mid 53BTW)  Bottom  fetter GT.  The Earliest Sylvania GTs made for non military use are the original chrome domes and are constructed just like a W.  Those are reallyu great but I have only managed to buy one pair in all these years. (early on before I realized what I truly had. Good luck.
> 
> I never went for the overhyped Chinese stuff in a fancy box, I think the earliest fancy pants tube has gold plated pins..


 

 I was more kidding. The glasst has a little funk, nothing really. I have been working with tubes since the late 1960's and was a radioman in the US Navy when we used tubes. I know how to tension sockets if needed, or replacing them. I have been on Audio Asylum since 2000. Tubes are great.


----------



## vintinfinity

I just bought a bottlehead crack that needs a little TLC... in the meantime before it ships and flies across the country to me, how do these 6sn7 tubes (some RCA, a couple GE and a couple sylvania) I acquired years ago look to you guys that know a bit about them? http://m.imgur.com/a/oYWQN (there are some 12au7 at the bottom of the album too, which is the stock BH Crack input tube. 
  
 I also had these NOS RCA from the 70s I think.. http://m.imgur.com/a/A2fms
  
 Any experience with these tubes in the BH crack + possible speedball [if I can figure out what the guy I got it from did wrong on the speedball boards] (on the side assembled, but not installed successfully)
  
 Thanks for any info on these in advance


----------



## Mechans1

vintinfinity said:


> I just bought a bottlehead crack that needs a little TLC... in the meantime before it ships and flies across the country to me, how do these 6sn7 tubes (some RCA, a couple GE and a couple sylvania) I acquired years ago look to you guys that know a bit about them? http://m.imgur.com/a/oYWQN (there are some 12au7 at the bottom of the album too, which is the stock BH Crack input tube.
> 
> I also had these NOS RCA from the 70s I think.. http://m.imgur.com/a/A2fms
> 
> ...


 
 Can you see any EIA codes that would help to assure the manufacturer.  see this link for help.   http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm .
 Other wise these tubes as a group  are generally good to very good tubes, depending on condition which cannot be  reliably assessed by visual inspection only.
 I do not own a BH Crack but do use a 6SN7 driven amp  , with these output tubes - 6080,or  5998 or, WE 421 etc. output transformerless amp.  I have used some of these tubes as the pre amp tube, and they work very well.
 If you are flush and want what many consider the best possible at this time, then no they are not king of the tube mountain. I think you are better off moving slowly if you are after the very, very best.  Which BTW is only an opinion and may not be your cup of tea.  Your favorite could be quite different than the tube " know it all"   such as myself, LOL.


----------



## gibosi

To my mind, the triangular plates strongly suggest Sylvania ECG. And the coin base suggests 1970's, or perhaps even later.
  
 For example:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-2-PHILIPS-SYLVANIA-6SN7GTB-6SN7GT-COIN-BASE-Amp-Tubes-Part-NOS-NIB-/112026707511


----------



## vintinfinity

I know 


mechans1 said:


> Can you see any EIA codes that would help to assure the manufacturer.  see this link for help.   http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm .
> Other wise these tubes as a group  are generally good to very good tubes, depending on condition which cannot be  reliably assessed by visual inspection only.
> I do not own a BH Crack but do use a 6SN7 driven amp  , with these output tubes - 6080,or  5998 or, WE 421 etc. output transformerless amp.  I have used some of these tubes as the pre amp tube, and they work very well.
> If you are flush and want what many consider the best possible at this time, then no they are not king of the tube mountain. I think you are better off moving slowly if you are after the very, very best.  Which BTW is only an opinion and may not be your cup of tea.  Your favorite could be quite different than the tube " know it all"   such as myself, LOL.


 
 I know they aren't the best there is... I don't have any boxes and didn't notice any codes on them (they are packed away now after the pics)
 They were cheap as a lot and tested decently, pretty balanced and plenty of life in em.
  
 I really liked my RCA 12au7 Black Plates and Clear tops in the tube buffer I got them with, so I imagine those will sound good enough to me. I figured the RCA 6sn7 would sound decent when I picked em up in case of future amp acquisition. I figure I might try a Telefunken 12au7 as well. Smooth plate or ribbed, depending on what people think about the difference. I have some Tele 12ax7 for my vintage power amp, but those won't work in the crack.


----------



## jamato8

Coin base was some of the last ones made. Not particularly good sounding.


----------



## r one

jozurr said:


> http://m.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matched-Pair-Sylvania-Mil-Spec-6SN7W-2-Rivet-T-Bad-Boy-S-Rods-Vacuum-Tubes-/152091797407?nav=SEARCH
> 
> Are these the popular sylvania 6sn7w? What is the correct way to identify them? confused about the wording mentioning bad boys


 

 on these pics, it's not true bad boys.
 Bad boy sylvania have 3 holes on the plate not 2.
  
 The popular 6SN7 W have an heavy top getter flash (called generally chrome dome), and usually an anchor on the  base with the mention JAN 6SN7W. Also, 6SN7W is marked on the top of the tube.


----------



## Jozurr

r one said:


> on these pics, it's not true bad boys.
> Bad boy sylvania have 3 holes on the plate not 2.
> 
> The popular 6SN7 W have an heavy top getter flash (called generally chrome dome), and usually an anchor on the  base with the mention JAN 6SN7W. Also, 6SN7W is marked on the top of the tube.




It does seem to have a chrome dome though right? Ive requested for more pics of the base and from top.


----------



## whirlwind

Here is a pic of a sylvania bad boy....this is just a 12SN7 instead of a 6SN7


----------



## Jozurr

Yes the point is that I'm not looking for the Sylvania bad boys (Which I believe is the 6SN7GT), but the Sylvania 6SN7W, which is why I linked that listing on ebay. That listing mentions 6SN7W and also mentions 2 rivet bad boys, which is why I was confused.


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Yes the point is that I'm not looking for the Sylvania bad boys (Which I believe is the 6SN7GT), but the Sylvania 6SN7W, which is why I linked that listing on ebay. That listing mentions 6SN7W and also mentions 2 rivet bad boys, which is why I was confused.


 
  
 It is important to remember that most sellers don't know all that much about the tubes they sell. And some will say almost anything to persuade the buyer. That said, VIVA's description seems to be reasonably accurate and I believe that these are in fact 6SN7W.
  
 There are three versions of the Sylvania 6SN7W (or 6SN7A), one short and two tall. The short version has a black plastic base. The difference between the two tall versions is that one has a black plastic base and the other has a metal base. (My avatar is the tall metal base 6SN7W.)
  
 In all three cases, this tube has T-plates with two rivet holes. There is a free-standing support rod between the top and bottom mica spacers to increase rigidity. And there are 4 ‘umbrella spokes’ extending downwards from the edges of top mica spacer and touching the glass. It would have been nice if VIVA provided good pictures allowing one to see these key features, but posting only one poor picture is par for the course for this vendor.... 
  
 Anyway, the following link can be very helpful, especially if there are good pictures.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that most sellers don't know all that much about the tubes they sell. And some will say almost anything to persuade the buyer. That said, VIVA's description seems to be reasonably accurate and I believe that these are in fact 6SN7W.
> 
> There are three versions of the Sylvania 6SN7W (or 6SN7A), one short and two tall. The short version has a black plastic base. The difference between the two tall versions is that one has a black plastic base and the other has a metal base. (My avatar is the tall metal base 6SN7W.)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Got some more pictures of the 6SN7W from the seller with this message:
  
 "I have attached some additional pictures. These do not have JAN or anchor markings. They do have the W on the end of the designation (6SN7WGT) which means the same thing as JAN or the Anchor symbol, they were made for the military."


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Got some more pictures of the 6SN7W from the seller with this message:
> 
> "I have attached some additional pictures. These do not have JAN or anchor markings. They do have the W on the end of the designation (6SN7WGT) which means the same thing as JAN or the Anchor symbol, they were made for the military."


 
  
 Text or graphics printed on the base can be helpful, but they are never conclusive. After all, this information was added just before the tube was packaged and shipped, and thus, was largely a function of the end user. For example, I have a metal-based 6SN7W relabeled as a Philco 6SN7GT.
  
 What matters is the construction and, if visible, any etched markings in the glass. Thus, even though I cannot see the plates, the support rod, or the mica spacers in the pictures the vendor provided, the fact that the tube-type and date-codes are clearly etched into the top of the tube clinch it. These are small bottle Sylvania 6SN7W.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> Text or graphics printed on the base can be helpful, but they are never conclusive. After all, this information was added just before the tube was packaged and shipped, and thus, was largely a function of the end user. For example, I have a metal-based 6SN7W relabeled as a Philco 6SN7GT.
> 
> What matters is the construction and, if visible, any etched markings in the glass. Thus, even though I cannot see the plates, the support rod, or the mica spacers in the pictures the vendor provided, the fact that the tube-type and date-codes are clearly etched into the top of the tube clinch it. These are small bottle Sylvania 6SN7W.


 
  
 Thank you gibosi


----------



## jamato8

I have some NOS 6SN7W short bottle. Nothing special. Nice sounding but bass heavy, IMO. Better than many other 6SN7 types but the round plate, IMO, are better and more even sounding. 
  
 edit: I have to correct myself. The tubes are sounding better today. As NOS, they need some time in the circuit to burn in. They are opening up more with a nice transparent quality.


----------



## dminches

The short bottle 6SN7Ws are in my top 5.


----------



## JazzVinyl

dminches said:


> The short bottle 6SN7Ws are in my top 5.




I have a pair of 6SN7W's as well.

Love them. Very natural and organic sounding.


----------



## Jozurr

dminches said:


> The short bottle 6SN7Ws are in my top 5.




Would love to know what your top 5 are in order.

Maybe @jazzvinyl @jamato8 and @gibosi you can post your top 5 in order too


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Would love to know what your top 5 are in order.
> 
> Maybe @jazzvinyl @jamato8 and @gibosi you can post your top 5 in order too


 
  
 "In order" is impossible... Depends on my mood and the other tubes installed at the time -- output and rectifier.
  
 These 6SN7 types spend the most time in my amp:
  
 Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle
 GEC/MOV B65
 National Union 6F8G
  
 Plus two others that are technically not 6SN7/6F8G as they clearly belong to the 6N7G family
  
 Mullard ECC31
 Raytheon 5694
  
 And just to be complete as my amp can run C3g natively...
  
 Siemens and Telefunken C3g


----------



## JazzVinyl

jozurr said:


> Would love to know what your top 5 are in order.
> 
> Maybe @jazzvinyl @jamato8 and @gibosi you can post your top 5 in order too




1940's Sylvania 6SN7W (listening to gibosi's praise these got me to spend on them, they are indeed wonderful)
1940's Ken-Rad VT231 (close second, they have commanding bass a little less resolving)
1940's Sylvania 6SN7 chrome domes (smooth, all around good eggs)
1950's WG&Co 6SN7 (seem to be rebranded Raytheon - crazy cheap bargain, surprised how much I like them)
1950's Tung Sol 6SN7 (not round plate, were not expensive, but sound very smooth to me)

Runner Up:
1960's Baldwin 6SN7 - also rebranded Raytheon, super inexpensive, sounds pretty nice.

Also Sylvania 7N7's (use adapter) are found at bargain prices that sound pretty close to the 1940's Sylvania chrome domes...
Tung-Sol also made nice 7N7's (maybe are Sylvania rebrands)






.


----------



## jamato8

jazzvinyl said:


> 1940's Sylvania 6SN7W (listening to gibosi's praise these got me to spend on them, they are indeed wonderful)
> 1940's Ken-Rad VT231 (close second, they have commanding bass a little less resolving)
> 1940's Sylvania 6SN7 chrome domes (smooth, all around good eggs)
> 1950's WG&Co 6SN7 (seem to be rebranded Raytheon - crazy cheap bargain, surprised how much I like them)
> ...


 

 I believe that Sylvania made all the 7N7 tubes. Yes, they can be nice but for me they go microphonic easily and also for some reason don't last long but they should.


----------



## punit

I had the Sylvania 6SN7W Short Bottle in my collection but had never got around to really trying them. All this talk made me put them in my 300B pre amp & have been listening to them over last couple of days. These have really clean, extended sweet treble. Very good resolution with tight bass.


----------



## r one

Sylvania 6SN7 w is the model that i haven't in my collection yet. Must to try it you think ? ah ah ah


----------



## gibosi

jamato8 said:


> I believe that Sylvania made all the 7N7 tubes. Yes, they can be nice but for me they go microphonic easily and also for some reason don't last long but they should.


 
  
 The only other 7N7 I have found is a National Union. But otherwise, it appears that the vast majority were manufactured by Sylvania.
  
 Interestingly, the NU 7N7 has round plates like the NU 6F8G.


----------



## leftside

You didn't ask me, but I'll reply anyway  No particular order. Some sound better than others depending on the day/mood/other tube combos:
 - B65
 - ECC35
 - ECC32/31
 - ECC33
 - Sylvania metal base
  
 I'm also a fan of the other 6SN7 tubes mentioned.


----------



## JazzVinyl

leftside said:


> You didn't ask me, but I'll reply anyway  No particular order. Some sound better than others depending on the day/mood/other tube combos:
> - B65
> - ECC35
> - ECC32/31
> ...




I like your choices, too @leftside

And agree about "day/mood"...

Cheers!


----------



## leftside

Those ECC tubes are not exact replacements for the 6SN7's. The ECC35 is a 6SL7, but a lot of us have amps that can take them. The "pure" 6SN7's that I really like have already been mentioned.


----------



## whirlwind

I just realized...I have like 10 times the amount of 12SN7's to 6SN7's


----------



## jamato8

whirlwind said:


> I just realized...I have like 10 times the amount of 12SN7's to 6SN7's


 

 12xxx is a great tube and quieter compared to the 6xxx.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> "In order" is impossible... Depends on my mood and the other tubes installed at the time -- output and rectifier.
> 
> These 6SN7 types spend the most time in my amp:
> 
> ...


 
 What specifically do you like about these compared to your other tubes? 
  


jazzvinyl said:


> 1940's Sylvania 6SN7W (listening to gibosi's praise these got me to spend on them, they are indeed wonderful)
> 1940's Ken-Rad VT231 (close second, they have commanding bass a little less resolving)
> 1940's Sylvania 6SN7 chrome domes (smooth, all around good eggs)
> 1950's WG&Co 6SN7 (seem to be rebranded Raytheon - crazy cheap bargain, surprised how much I like them)
> ...


  
 What adapter are you using? Got some pics of the tubes and what is considered a bargain for them?
  


leftside said:


> You didn't ask me, but I'll reply anyway  No particular order. Some sound better than others depending on the day/mood/other tube combos:
> - B65
> - ECC35
> - ECC32/31
> ...


 


  
 Sorry I forgot to ask you  Which one of these do you consider to do the best bass? Are the B65 worth the money over the other 6SN7 you have listed? Same question @gibosi
  


leftside said:


> Those ECC tubes are not exact replacements for the 6SN7's. The ECC35 is a 6SL7, but a lot of us have amps that can take them. The "pure" 6SN7's that I really like have already been mentioned.


 
  
 Sorry my knowledge is limited, but can I ask to further elaborate on this? My amp can accept 12SN7 types as well (Liquid Glass). Do you use adapters for these ECC tubes into 6sn7 sockets?
  


whirlwind said:


> I just realized...I have like 10 times the amount of 12SN7's to 6SN7's


 
  
 You can go ahead and post your top 12SN7 tubes as well and if you can add one line describing their sound. There's hardly any information about 12SN7 tubes and which 12SN7 are equivalent of 6SN7 tubes. Like from this thread I found out that the B36 are 12SN7 variant of the popular 6SN7 type and much cheaper!


----------



## SonicTrance

jozurr said:


> You can go ahead and post your top 12SN7 tubes as well and if you can add one line describing their sound. There's hardly any information about 12SN7 tubes and *which 12SN7 are equivalent of 6SN7 tubes*. Like from this thread I found out that the B36 are 12SN7 variant of the popular 6SN7 type and much cheaper!


 
 They're all the same. The only difference between a 12SN7 and a 6SN7 is the heater voltage and current.


----------



## Jozurr

sonictrance said:


> They're all the same. The only difference between a 12SN7 and a 6SN7 is the heater voltage and current.




I meant how they are named. For example searching for the 12sn7w doesnt yield any results. How do you find a 12sn7 variant of the 6sn7w tube?


----------



## JazzVinyl

7N7 to 6SN7 Adapters:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1piece-7N7-7F7-TO-6SN7-6SL7-tube-converter-adapter-/201469510312


----------



## jamato8

jazzvinyl said:


> 7N7 to 6SN7 Adapters:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1piece-7N7-7F7-TO-6SN7-6SL7-tube-converter-adapter-/201469510312


 

 I made my own a long time ago, before people started making them. Just as compact. The 7N7 is very good but I see the prices have gone up. I am using some 7AF7 round plate right now. I better grade of tube but now that the 6SN7W has burned in, I prefer that tube and I have a lot of the 7N7 types but it nice to have them around. 
  
 7AF7 round plate, very good bass slam, not as airy as the 6SN7W short bottle but nice dynamics and slam. Ok, the 7AF7 are opening up now, they are NOS, and what dynamics, even more. And real bass punch, the most of any tubes I have.


----------



## r one

Tell me : 7n7 are equivalent to 7af7 ?


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> Tell me : 7n7 are equivalent to 7af7 ?


 
  
 No.
  
 7N7 is electrically equivalent to 6SN7GT
  
 7AF7 is electrically equivalent to 6AH7GT. However, these seem to be quite rare...
  
 That said, they are quite similar, and in my amp, they work fine and sound great. However, of these doubletriode loctals, I still prefer the round plate NU 7N7.


----------



## whirlwind

These are in no particular order, because like gibosi mentioned....it depends on what power tubes are being used and what sound I am currently craving.
  
 Osram B36  (12 volt version of B65)
  
 Mullard ECC 31
  
 Tung Sol 6F8G  BGRP
  
 Brimar 13D1 (25 volt SN7)
  
 Ken Rad 12SN7 VT231
  
 Do not have a Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle....maybe some day
  
 I do like the Sylvania 12SN7GT bad boy the best of all of the sylvania tubes that I have so far..
  
 As far as a great bang for you buck SN7 tube, I am listening to a 1633 RCA smoked glass and for $3 each...they are a steal.....the 1633 is a 25 volt SN7 and is really cheap and when my mood is right, they really sound great.


----------



## Jozurr

whirlwind said:


> These are in no particular order, because like gibosi mentioned....it depends on what power tubes are being used and what sound I am currently craving.
> 
> Osram B36  (12 volt version of B65)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Where did you get the Osram B36? Ive been trying to find them. How do you like them compared to the VT231 or TungSol BGRP?


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Where did you get the Osram B36? Ive been trying to find them.


 
  
 They show up on eBay every once in awhile. So I think the best strategy is to check everyday and be patient. Eventually, after some weeks, or even months, one will pop-up.


----------



## leftside

- Which one of these do you consider to do the best bass? Are the B65 worth the money over the other 6SN7 you have listed?
 They are all good for bass. The B65 sure sounds sweet, and for me it's worth having. I'd like a spare set.
  
 - Sorry my knowledge is limited, but can I ask to further elaborate on this? My amp can accept 12SN7 types as well (Liquid Glass). Do you use adapters for these ECC tubes into 6sn7 sockets?
 Not sure about your amp. Mine requires an adapter for the ECC31. The others work fine as is. There seems to be more gain with some of these ECC tubes than the regular 6SN7, and combined with the 6BL7 I have more than enough gain for my headphones.


----------



## Jozurr

Just got the Ken-Rad VT-231. I believe these are the staggered plate version? Not the bass monsters I imagined them to be. I liked the ECC32 better overall. However, they are better than the red bass RCA 5692. More fuller sounding.


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> Tell me : 7n7 are equivalent to 7af7 ?


 

 They are very close and for most practical pursponses are interchangeable unless there is a very specific use/design, which in this case, there is enough variability that it works fine.


----------



## leftside

Don't touch the glass of the tubes with your hands/fingers. The grease will decrease the lifetime of the tubes. I use latex gloves from Home Depot.


----------



## jamato8

leftside said:


> Don't touch the glass of the tubes with your hands/fingers. The grease will decrease the lifetime of the tubes. I use latex gloves from Home Depot.


 

 These aren't halogen types of bulbs. In using tubes for over 40 years I have never seen any with decreased life due to fingerprints or handling. How does it decrease the life of the tube? It doesn't etch and finger prints can be wiped off if desired unlike halogen that tend to etch due to the glass and heat.


----------



## ken6217

leftside said:


> Don't touch the glass of the tubes with your hands/fingers. The grease will decrease the lifetime of the tubes. I use latex gloves from Home Depot.


 

 Woo customer service had said that there is no problem touching the tubes.


----------



## Jozurr

Can someone confirm if those kenrads are staggered plates?


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


>


 
  


jozurr said:


> Can someone confirm if those kenrads are staggered plates?


 
  
 Yes. In the picture above, you can see that the plates relative to the top mica are rotated at an angle, I would guess about 20 - 25 degrees? Hence, the term "staggered plates."


----------



## punit

Is there any difference in the internal structure between clear glass & black glass *KEN-RAD 6SN7GT VT-231* tubes ? If yes, then that means they sound different from each other ?


----------



## r one

gibosi said:


> Yes. In the picture above, you can see that the plates relative to the top mica are rotated at an angle, I would guess about 20 - 25 degrees? Hence, the term "staggered plates."



For me these plates are not staggered but parralel. The only stuff i see staggered are the two structures stabiliser on the internal glass.
For me a staggered plate structure is not like this one.


----------



## r one

this is, for me, what i call "staggered plate" structure (or angle plate).


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> For me these plates are not staggered but parralel. The only stuff i see staggered are the two structures stabiliser on the internal glass.
> For me a staggered plate structure is not like this one.


 

 Normally what is in the image of the Ken rad would be called a staggered plate as they are offset from each other even though they are parallel to each other.


----------



## r one

So if staggered mean this, all 6sn7 are staggered plate no ?


----------



## jamato8

r one said:


> So if staggered mean this, all 6sn7 are staggered plate no ?


 

 No, I have some that are parallel and directly across from each other, not staggered.


----------



## r one

I am curious : could you show me an example ? I think that i have never seen a strict parallel plate.


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> I am curious : could you show me an example ? I think that i have never seen a strict parallel plate.


 
  
 In the Reference 6SN7 Thread, Robert H. is quoted as having coined the term 'staggered" plates in reference to the parallel off-set plates characteristic of the Ken Rad VT231.
  
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5775#post_12667991
  
 ● “With reference to the KenRad, the first version can have either black glass or clear glass, always with staggered plates (I was the one who coined the 'staggered plates' moniker - there is zero sonic difference between the two). In the late 40's, when GE had taken more control over the KenRad operation, there was a second version with clear glass and in-line ribbed plates - it is NOTEABLY inferior sonically - gone is the big bass and the midrange bloom, added is a dry, slightly constricted sound with no magic.” -Robert H. (in personal correspondence)
  
 While I do not have a picture of the GE, check them out on eBay for pictures showing their parallel in-line plates.


----------



## r one

OK i understand. I make this confusion because in french signification of "staggered" is near close to angle plate. In french "staggered" mean " en quinconce "


----------



## gibosi

jamato8 said:


> I made my own a long time ago, before people started making them. Just as compact. The 7N7 is very good but I see the prices have gone up. I am using some 7AF7 round plate right now. I better grade of tube but now that the 6SN7W has burned in, I prefer that tube and I have a lot of the 7N7 types but it nice to have them around.
> 
> 7AF7 round plate, very good bass slam, not as airy as the 6SN7W short bottle but nice dynamics and slam. Ok, the 7AF7 are opening up now, they are NOS, and what dynamics, even more. And real bass punch, the most of any tubes I have.


 
  
 As best as I can tell, both RCA and Sylvania manufactured the 7AF7. Again, I am not sure, but I think the rectangular bottom mica spacer indicates RCA and round indicates Sylvania. Anyway, which are you describing? The rectangular or round mica version?


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> As best as I can tell, both RCA and Sylvania manufactured the 7AF7. Again, I am not sure, but I think the rectangular bottom mica spacer indicates RCA and round indicates Sylvania. Anyway, which are you describing? The rectangular or round mica version?




I have always seen the 7AF7 described as an "upgraded" 7N7....

What is the general difference in the way they sound?


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> I have always seen the 7AF7 described as an "upgraded" 7N7....
> 
> What is the general difference in the way they sound?


 
  
 I don't think it was conceived as an upgraded 7N7. From the Sylvania datasheet
  
 http://www.shinjo.info/frank/sheets/084/7/7AF7.pdf
  
 its similarity to the 7N7 is acknowledged, but it has a lower mutual conductance than the 7N7.
  
 I think some in the audio community consider it an upgraded 7N7 because they think it sounds better. For example, It certainly seems to me that Jamato prefers the 7AF7 to the 7N7 and the 6SN7W given his recent posting.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5760#post_12661491
  
 And some believe that the round plates might be part of the reason.
  
 ~~~~~~~~~~
  
 Having spent a little more time researching these 7AF7, I now think that Sylvania was the only manufacturer. I think the round micas were used in the early 1940s and the rectangular micas in the late 1940s and into the 1950s.
  
 It does appear that RCA manufactured the 14AF7 but I haven't seen one....
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/1/14AF7.pdf
  
 I have only one 14AF7 and it is also a Sylvania. Etched into the top is 14AF7/XXD indicating that it was made expressly for use in Philco radios during the early 1940's.
  
 Edit: The octal version of the 7AF7 is the 6AH7GT. And similarly, for the 14AF7, there is the 12AH7GT. However, these octals have a different pin-out than a 6SN7GT, so an adapter is necessary.


----------



## jamato8

I wouldn't go out of my way hunting for the 7AF7. It has great bass slam, tuneful and solid but for transparency and layering, I still prefer the 6SN7W but if you want slam, the 7AF7. The problem is they are hard to find and I see a matched pair on eBay but they are not a matched pair. They are of a different manufacturing time, and that alone makes them different. I do like the 76 with the dual adapter. Excellent sounding but to keep it simple a good quality 6SN7 should make most happy. I have some 5692  RCA red base NOS, and don't like the tube but I should try them in the micro Zotl 2, just for the heck of it.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Very nice Gents,

Appreciate your time.


----------



## jamato8

I am using some 6SN7W tall bottle right now. Very nice. They took around 40 to 50 hours to burn in. They sound like a normal 6SN7 but have opened up nice now. I guess there is no normal but they are more open and airy now than many of the 6SN7 types I have. I haven't compared the tall and short bottle one on one yet but to me, they do sound different.


----------



## JazzVinyl

jamato8 said:


> I am using some 6SN7W tall bottle right now. Very nice. They took around 40 to 50 hours to burn in. They sound like a normal 6SN7 but have opened up nice now. I guess there is no normal but they are more open and airy now than many of the 6SN7 types I have. I haven't compared the tall and short bottle one on one yet but to me, they do sound different.




How about the Tung Sol black glass round plates? Do you have these? They are supposed to be top notch 6SN7's as well, wonder how they would fare against your 6SN7W Sylvania tall bottles?

Cheers...


----------



## 300b

I have a Cosco orange box full of nos 6sn7's, 6sl7's, 5692's etc....what amplifier are you using to drive your headphones, please?


----------



## jamato8

jazzvinyl said:


> How about the Tung Sol black glass round plates? Do you have these? They are supposed to be top notch 6SN7's as well, wonder how they would fare against your 6SN7W Sylvania tall bottles?
> 
> Cheers...


 

 I enjoy the TS RP. I have them in NOS and a pair with very low hours so they are fresh sounding. The sound is different. I would have to compare them again but I would be happy with the 6SN7W. I also like the 76 with an adapter to use 2 per channel, since a dual triode tube is required.


----------



## Mechans1

The tall bottle W is less common than the short bottle.  Just to make matters more confusing there is a medium envelope W as well.  The sound you have described is what Ws do best, i.e. open , sound staging holographic imaging tubes that have a very pretty midrange. The only weak point I find is not having extended and pronounced bass.  It would be untrue to say there is no bass but its not a strong point.  I don't think of them as lacking good dynamics, but they aren't slamming either.  The difference size tubes seem to present that W sound somewhat less in short bottles as opposed to the taller.  They like virtually all of the early 6SN7s are prone to microphonics.
 As an aside I think all Tung Sol 6SN7 GT Round Plates are in black glass.  My personal experience with the TS round plate is colored by having received more than a few that were in less than decent condition sound wise.  I will therefore leave to those who love them to argue their sonic virtues.  I did get a few that were clearly head and shoulders better sounding than the bad ones I got stuck with.  Therefore I know they can be very special in the right application.


----------



## gibosi

300b said:


> I have a Cosco orange box full of nos 6sn7's, 6sl7's, 5692's etc....what amplifier are you using to drive your headphones, please?


 
  
 I dare say that we are all using different headphone amps.... Mine is custom-made...


----------



## Jozurr

mechans1 said:


> The tall bottle W is less common than the short bottle.  Just to make matters more confusing there is a medium envelope W as well.  The sound you have described is what Ws do best, i.e. open , sound staging holographic imaging tubes that have a very pretty midrange. The only weak point I find is not having extended and pronounced bass.  It would be untrue to say there is no bass but its not a strong point.  I don't think of them as lacking good dynamics, but they aren't slamming either.  The difference size tubes seem to present that W sound somewhat less in short bottles as opposed to the taller.  They like virtually all of the early 6SN7s are prone to microphonics.
> As an aside I think all Tung Sol 6SN7 GT Round Plates are in black glass.  My personal experience with the TS round plate is colored by having received more than a few that were in less than decent condition sound wise.  I will therefore leave to those who love them to argue their sonic virtues.  I did get a few that were clearly head and shoulders better sounding than the bad ones I got stuck with.  Therefore I know they can be very special in the right application.


 
  
 Which tubes would you rate as best when it comes to bass?
  


jamato8 said:


> I am using some 6SN7W tall bottle right now. Very nice. They took around 40 to 50 hours to burn in. They sound like a normal 6SN7 but have opened up nice now. I guess there is no normal but they are more open and airy now than many of the 6SN7 types I have. I haven't compared the tall and short bottle one on one yet but to me, they do sound different.


 
  
 Would be interested in detailed comparisons between the tall and short bottled 6SN7Ws, if you manage to do them some time.


----------



## r one

For bass ? Ken rad vt231 of course. 
But it's not my favorite in my system it sounds too loud in bass frequencies. I prefer TS rp. Another possibility is TS VT99 flate plate .


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Which tubes would you rate as best when it comes to bass?


 
  
 While not a 6SN7, to my ears, the ECC31/32, have the best bass. That said, I am far from being a bass-head...


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> While not a 6SN7, to my ears, the ECC31/32, have the best bass. That said, I am far from being a bass-head...


 
  
 What are the differences between ECC31/32 considering the ECC31 are half the price? Sound wise specfically


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> What are the differences between ECC31/32 considering the ECC31 are half the price? Sound wise specfically


 
  
 They are essentially identical. The only difference is in the connections. In the case of the ECC31, the two cathode leads are tied together in the base. Thus it is called a "common cathode" double triode, similar to the 6N7G. In the ECC32, that connection is not made, so the two cathodes are separate, and it has the same pinout as a 6SN7. Since the ECC31 was developed first, the ECC32 is considered to be a modified ECC31.
  
 As long as the comparison is made between ECC31 and ECC32 manufactured in the same year, they should sound identical. These tubes were manufactured for more than 10 years, so it is very probable that 1945 production might sound somewhat different than 1955, but my ears are not good enough to discern such differences...
  
 An adapter is required for the ECC31 in order to match the pins up to allow it to operate in a 6SN7 socket.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> They are essentially identical. The only difference is in the connections. In the case of the ECC31, the two cathode leads are tied together in the base. Thus it is called a "common cathode" double triode, similar to the 6N7G. In the ECC32, that connection is not made, so the two cathodes are separate, and it has the same pinout as a 6SN7. Since the ECC31 was developed first, the ECC32 is considered to be a modified ECC31.
> 
> As long as the comparison is made between ECC31 and ECC32 manufactured in the same year, they should sound identical. These tubes were manufactured for more than 10 years, so it is very probable that 1945 production might sound somewhat different than 1955, but my ears are not good enough to discern such differences...
> 
> An adapter is required for the ECC31 in order to match the pins up to allow it to operate in a 6SN7 socket.


 
  
 That's very interesting. Since they sound similar, the ECC31 go for half price just because people don't want to use adapters?


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> That's very interesting. Since they sound similar, the ECC31 go for half price just because people don't want to use adapters?


 
  
 I think they go for half price because most people do not know they are the same tube.... But now you do.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> I think they go for half price because most people do not know they are the same tube.... But now you do.


 
  
 I'm glad I do 
  
 Now only to find out what tubes are the same as the 6SN7W..


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Now only to find out what tubes are the same as the 6SN7W..


 
  
 To my knowledge, there are only the three standard versions of the Sylvania 6SN7W, two tall bottles, with metal or plastic bases, and the small bottle. Sometimes you will see one of these labeled as 6SN7A, but it is the exact same tube. Unfortunately for those of us who can run 12 volt tubes, Sylvania did not make a 12SN7W. However, there are rebrands. I have in my collection a metal-based Philco and a metal-based Delco. Good luck in your  hunt!


----------



## Mechans1

jozurr said:


> Which tubes would you rate as best when it comes to bass?
> 
> 
> Would be interested in detailed comparisons between the tall and short bottled 6SN7Ws, if you manage to do them some time.


 

 Too late at night for long detailed descriptions but I think there is sort of a quantitated difference between tall and short if you .  The sound- is   what we have described already.  The short guy do it nicely but the tall do it even more so. A lot of people including me, think music is primarily in the mid range .  The Ws have a really sweet midrange which isn't wildly out of balance with the rest of the frequency range, but it  is still  somewhat emphasized  I like that.  The treble is clear and extended but not screechy and the bass clean but somewhat reserved.  Now The Shorts have this sound but the tall have even more of these wonderful attributes.
  
 We have carefully avoided the most prized W the Metal base tuybes. I will leave that for another day.
  
 The only tube I know of with exceptional Bass are the early staggered plate Ken Rads.  Get a pair  usually in black glass  and a GT no other version except the VT- 231s  used in WW II or if you prefer the 1940s to very early 50s.  They were not made after that.  You should be able to find some  or how many you need on Ebay.  If that is  a problem I am sure some of our friends here can I can as well I have redundancy as usual.  They are sought after so good ones cost money but you may want to save a few bucks and get a cosmetically challenged one or pair. 
 How many 6SN7s are you using in your gear?


----------



## ken6217

Is there any difference in gain between a VT99 6F8G and 6SN7?


----------



## gibosi

ken6217 said:


> Is there any difference in gain between a VT99 6F8G and 6SN7?


 
  
 It depends...  For most manufacturers, the differences are very small. However, the NU products are quite different.


----------



## ken6217

gibosi said:


> It depends...  For most manufacturers, the differences are very small. However, the NU products are quite different.


 

 Thanks. I do have NU. I was looking at TS and was curious. 
  
 So is there a gain difference for NU? Also, what about 6C8G?


----------



## gibosi

ken6217 said:


> Thanks. I do have NU. I was looking at TS and was curious.
> 
> So is there a gain difference for NU? Also, what about 6C8G?


 
  
 The flat-plate version of the TS 6F8G is a little different than the round-plate, but to my ears, still very close.
  
 All 6F8G and 6SN7 have an amplification factor of 20. In that regard they are all the same.
  
 The 6C8G has an amplification factor of 36. This is about the same as the ECC32 and 6DJ8, both of which work well in most 6SN7-based headphone amps.


----------



## ken6217

gibosi said:


> The flat-plate version of the TS 6F8G is a little different than the round-plate, but to my ears, still very close.
> 
> All 6F8G and 6SN7 have an amplification factor of 20. In that regard they are all the same.
> 
> The 6C8G has an amplification factor of 36. This is about the same as the ECC32 and 6DJ8, both of which work well in most 6SN7-based headphone amps.


 

 Thanks.


----------



## rosgr63

NU 6F8G's 





gibosi said:


> To my knowledge, there are only the three standard versions of the Sylvania 6SN7W, two tall bottles, with metal or plastic bases, and the small bottle. Sometimes you will see one of these labeled as 6SN7A, but it is the exact same tube. Unfortunately for those of us who can run 12 volt tubes, Sylvania did not make a 12SN7W. However, there are rebrands. I have in my collection a metal-based Philco and a metal-based Delco. Good luck in your  hunt!





The short bottles have different construction too.
In some the lower mica is above the base in others it's inside.
To me certain batches sound better than others.


----------



## gibosi

Recently, I managed to pick up a European Philips 6SN7GT. From what I can gather, this tube hasn't gotten much love in this forum, but even so, I have been wanting to try one for some time now. To the best of my knowledge, Philips manufactured this tube in Eindhoven (factory code 4) and in Brussels (factory code L). From past experience, I haven't much cared for Brussels production so I have been searching for one manufactured in Eindhoven.
  
 I am especially interested in comparing this tube with an Eindhoven-made ECC40. While the American companies were developing the 12AU7 as an all-glass miniature to replace the 6SN7, Philips developed the ECC40. And it just so happens that I have several of these manufactured in Eindhoven at about the same time as this 6SN7GT.
  
 6SN7GT, manufactured in June, 1955, and ECC40, manufactured in April, 1955


----------



## r one

How many different manufacturers made 7N7 tubes ? All 7N7 that i see seems to be the same and seems to be made by Sylvania. If i would have only one model to test, what would be the better for you Gibosi ?


----------



## gibosi

r one said:


> How many different manufacturers made 7N7 tubes ? All 7N7 that i see seems to be the same and seems to be made by Sylvania. If i would have only one model to test, what would be the better for you Gibosi ?


 
  
 To the best of my knowledge, only Sylvania and National Union manufactured the 7N7. In the case of Sylvania, they manufactured this tube for many years beginning in the late 1940s. And as a result there are several versions, tall bottles, short bottles, T-plates, triangular plates and so on. I prefer the oldest tubes, with tall bottles, smoked glass and T-plates.
  
 As National Union sold it's vacuum tube manufacturing facilities to Sylvania in 1954, they didn't manufacture the 7N7 for all that long and hence, there are not that many of them. The NU 7N7 appears to have the same round plates as found in the NU 6F8G and to my ears it sounds very similar.
  
 Now, I have seen a datasheet for the 7N7/14N7 published by Tung-Sol. And this implies that Tung-Sol actually manufactured this tube. However, all the Tung-Sol 7N7 I have seen look exactly like Sylvania. So I just don't know...
  
 Sylvania 7N7 to the left and NU to the right.


----------



## r one

Thanks a lot for this clearly answer as usual. I have to buy both.


----------



## jamato8

I have read that while NU did make the tube, others have stated that Sylvania was the only real manufacturer. I have some NU round plate 7N7 and used to experiment a lot with the 7N7 type a lot so I have a lot different version in NOS. I have the 6SN7 and 6SL7 equivalents. And then the 7AF7, which have been discussed previously, that are a little different but often work fine though I have found them to easily go noisy.


----------



## ken6217

jamato8 said:


> I have read that while NU did make the tube, others have stated that Sylvania was the only real manufacturer. I have some NU round plate 7N7 and used to experiment a lot with the 7N7 type a lot so I have a lot different version in NOS. I have the 6SN7 and 6SL7 equivalents. And then the 7AF7, which have been discussed previously, that are a little different but often work fine though I have found them to easily go noisy.




With any tubes, the results will vary depending on the amp they are in. I used a TS RP black glass 6SL7 with I had a WA5-LE and it wasn't anything extraordinary. However in my Eddie Current Balancing act it is the best driver tube for that amp to me.


----------



## jamato8

ken6217 said:


> With any tubes, the results will vary depending on the amp they are in. I used a TS RP black glass 6SL7 with I had a WA5-LE and it wasn't anything extraordinary. However in my Eddie Current Balancing act it is the best driver tube for that amp to me.


 

 That is true. And that is a nice tube. The 6SU7. I have a box of NOS when you could pick them up for 5 dollars. A very balanced tube but the operating points, with any tube, need to be fine tuned if you are going to get the best out of it. Few amp allow for this. A preamp made by David Berning allowed for the actual biasing of the tubes. I did the same for the pre I built, but I could vary the plate and bias.


----------



## gibosi

With the recent talk about 7AF7, I thought it might be interesting to try the 6AH7, which is the octal version. While I couldn't find a single 6AH7 on eBay, I did find a good selection of 12AH7. In fact, I picked up Tung-Sol BGRP 12AH7 quite inexpensively. And of course, as soon as I saw this tube I wanted to compare it to a Tung-Sol BGRP 6SN7GT.
  
 Unfortunately, the -AH7 has a different pin-out than a -SN7, so I had to grab an adapter, which arrived today.
  
 Compared to a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, also with a round top mica spacer, the most notable construction difference to my eyes is the 12AH7 does not have U-shaped heat radiators attached to the grid posts. Otherwise, they look very similar.


----------



## Mechans1

I have said this before -All Tung Sol *round plate* 6SN7s are in black glass.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> I have said this before -All Tung Sol *round plate* 6SN7s are in black glass.


 
  
 I believe this is true.
  
 However, not all Tung-Sol black glass 6SN7s have round plates. Some have the same flat ladder plates commonly found in the 6F8G.


----------



## gibosi

Regarding the construction of the Tung-Sol BGRP 6SN7GT, some years ago, a head-fi member had one of these tubes fail catastrophically, with the glass envelope fracturing cleanly at the base, and took it as a perfect opportunity for a NUDE photo op. 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/90761/tung-sol-round-plate-in-the-nude-warning-big-pix#post_1054328


----------



## nykobing

gibosi said:


> With the recent talk about 7AF7, I thought it might be interesting to try the 6AH7, which is the octal version. While I couldn't find a single 6AH7 on eBay, I did find a good selection of 12AH7. In fact, I picked up Tung-Sol BGRP 12AH7 quite inexpensively. And of course, as soon as I saw this tube I wanted to compare it to a Tung-Sol BGRP 6SN7GT.
> 
> Unfortunately, the -AH7 has a different pin-out than a -SN7, so I had to grab an adapter, which arrived today.
> 
> Compared to a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, also with a round top mica spacer, the most notable construction difference to my eyes is the 12AH7 does not have U-shaped heat radiators attached to the grid posts. Otherwise, they look very similar.


 
  
 You never mentioned how it sounded. I didn't like a Sylvania 7AF7 I tried in my Crack, it sounded really thin and missing any body, if that makes sense.


----------



## gibosi

nykobing said:


> You never mentioned how it sounded. I didn't like a Sylvania 7AF7 I tried in my Crack, it sounded really thin and missing any body, if that makes sense.


 
  
 Unfortunately, the TS 12AH7 was very microphonic and it kept getting worse and worse and nosier and noisier over time. I finally gave up as the noise was just to distracting to allow me to make any meaningful comparison. It came in it's original box with a packing date of 1943, so I assume it is NOS, but obviously, it is defective. Hope to find another someday....
  
 That said, I have run both Sylvania 7AF7 and 14AF7 in my Glenn, and they sound pretty good to my ears, with very good bass and certainly not thin. But then, these are very different amps....


----------



## vintinfinity

mechans1 said:


> Can you see any EIA codes that would help to assure the manufacturer.  see this link for help.   http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm .
> Other wise these tubes as a group  are generally good to very good tubes, depending on condition which cannot be  reliably assessed by visual inspection only.
> I do not own a BH Crack but do use a 6SN7 driven amp  , with these output tubes - 6080,or  5998 or, WE 421 etc. output transformerless amp.  I have used some of these tubes as the pre amp tube, and they work very well.
> If you are flush and want what many consider the best possible at this time, then no they are not king of the tube mountain. I think you are better off moving slowly if you are after the very, very best.  Which BTW is only an opinion and may not be your cup of tea.  Your favorite could be quite different than the tube " know it all"   such as myself, LOL.


 
 Replying to an old post,
  
 I finally got around to trying those newer built RCA tubes in the boxes that I posted previously http://imgur.com/a/A2fms (maybe 70s or 80s even?) that I picked up years ago (looks like Sylvania? style triangular plates (edit: I guess they are T shaped more than triangular) and it sounds pretty good with a Tung Sol 5998 Domino plate tube on output duty. I heard some new stuff in a song I have spent some time with recently, so that's a good sign.


----------



## rosgr63

They are GTA/GTB type tubes, very nice indeed.
 I would expect an improvement in the lower end.


----------



## vintinfinity

rosgr63 said:


> They are GTA/GTB type tubes, very nice indeed.
> I would expect an improvement in the lower end.


 
 What is the difference between the 6SN7W and GTB? They do sound very balanced from end to end; good bass response and very revealing with little details.


----------



## Mechans1

"What is the difference between the 6SN7W and GTB? They do sound very balanced from end to end; good bass response and very revealing with little details."
   
 There is a great deal of difference but hearing it can depend on your equipment.  In general terms the Ws  can produce a soundstage or 3D image of the sound as well mas can be expected from an  tube.  The midrange on a W is also about as good as it gets having a remarkable tone lush and pretty.  The treble is extended and has that holographic picture and in meaningless audiophilian,  I call it crystalline.  Both the midrange and treble tube seem to dig out extraordinary detail.  The one thing that Ws are not especially good at is bass.  It's fine in my estimation but anyone looking for a bottom heavy tube will be disappointed.  Yes it is balanced with the caveat that bass is not profound.

 The wider based GTBs I am familiar with, are very good and make few mistakes.  I like them for their upper bass and lower midrange which seem to be emphasized by this tube.  The result is a tube that works well if you like the 'big tone'.
 Keep your eyes peeled for Sylvania GTAs with the W like flashing.  They are usually inexpensive and give you a pretty good hint about , the sound of the other chrome domes.  Note that not all Sylvania GTAs  have that construction of opposing T plates , only the early versions are what you might want to try.


----------



## ericr

vintinfinity said:


> What is the difference between the 6SN7W and GTB? They do sound very balanced from end to end; good bass response and very revealing with little details.




Yes, pretty much exactly. 

That is if by "little details" you mean that lots of small details come through.

That and an open, wide, and airy soundstage.

I hate to have all of you bidding against me on eBay, but after trying 40+ different tubes (not all 6SN7 as the Project Ember runs a boatload of tubes) the 6SN7W is really all I bother with now. Though if your rig is a bit too bright the Tung-Sol BRP would be a good alternative.

-Eric


----------



## Jozurr

mechans1 said:


> "What is the difference between the 6SN7W and GTB? They do sound very balanced from end to end; good bass response and very revealing with little details."
> 
> 
> There is a great deal of difference but hearing it can depend on your equipment.  In general terms the Ws  can produce a soundstage or 3D image of the sound as well mas can be expected from an  tube.  The midrange on a W is also about as good as it gets having a remarkable tone lush and pretty.  The treble is extended and has that holographic picture and in meaningless audiophilian,  I call it crystalline.  Both the midrange and treble tube seem to dig out extraordinary detail.  The one thing that Ws are not especially good at is bass.  It's fine in my estimation but anyone looking for a bottom heavy tube will be disappointed.  Yes it is balanced with the caveat that bass is not profound.
> ...




Have you compared the 6SN7WGT (Brown Base) to the 6SN7W? Any comparisons?

Also, if you didnt like the bass on the 6sn7w, which tubes do you think do better bass except for the Ken Rads Vt231?


----------



## vintinfinity

ericr said:


> Yes, pretty much exactly.
> 
> That is if by "little details" you mean that lots of small details come through.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, lots of details come through with the GTB tube I've got in there now.


----------



## Mechans1

Yes I have listened extensively to the WGT and the W. The WGT is a very quick and well balanced tube.  The WGT  sounds very accurate  and precise, with a very clean top end.  I have friends who prefer the WGTs to other variants.  I warn you though to be wary of some of the less well liked  and as usual made later,  WGTA is not that good .  You want to know why? Well I am afraid that there  is only so much words can convey about sound.
   I know it is not a popular notion but if you can afford it buy some examples.  I can't guarantee that you'll get your money back, but that really is the only way to know what the differences are between these tubes.  I said that how they sound, is in good part, a function of what your equipment  transmits. 
 I own an AE-3 pre amp which uses 6SN7s in a way that my Consonance M 100 + an  EL-34 power tube integrated did not.  The M 100 + used 6SN7s as drivers  and 12AX7s as  input 'pre' ? phase splitters etc.  I don't really know.  I could easily hear differences when rolling 6SN7s.  When I got that AE-3 pre I couldn't believe how many of my favorite tubes were microphonic !     In my Ember and Extreme these differences are harder to discern.
 For Bass, I like the Ws bass but those who are hoping for a Ken Rad type bass profile will not find it in the W.  The Of the Sylvania the Bottom getter GTs often called Bad Boys.  As most of you know only the 3 rivet /hole plate tubes are the true special Bad Boy made from late 1951 to mid 1953.  They have good bass..  As I mentioned in an earlier post the GTB won't win prizes for the upper registers but they do have that rich and mellow sound in the mids and  down.
 The other tube that came to my mind was the gray glass  National Union.


----------



## leftside

Does a 12SN7 to 6SN7 adapter exist? 12 volts to 6 volts.


----------



## 2359glenn

leftside said:


> Does a 12SN7 to 6SN7 adapter exist? 12 volts to 6 volts.


 

 Yes but the amp will have to be running the 6SN7 on AC. If amp is running them on DC it will not work.
 What amp is it?


----------



## leftside

2359glenn said:


> Yes but the amp will have to be running the 6SN7 on AC. If amp is running them on DC it will not work.
> What amp is it?


 

 Woo Audio WA22. I know the rectifier takes the AC voltage and changes it to DC, but am unsure if the amp is running the 6SN7 on AC or DC.


----------



## Jozurr

Is anyone using ECC31 to 6SN7 Adapters? Im planning to purchase the Mullard ECC31 to use in place of 6SN7. 
  
 Can anyone recommend any specific make, or which ones between these two are better?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1piece-Gold-plated-ECC31-TO-ECC33-ECC32-6SN7-tube-converter-adapter-/191635977070?hash=item2c9e64f36e:g:GDgAAOSwDNdVqh4d
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-ECC31-Replace-ECC33-6SN7-B65-Tube-Amplifier-Adapter-Suzier-E2-/281951474496?hash=item41a59e1340:g:e94AAOSwu4BV5ApU


----------



## whirlwind

jozurr said:


> Is anyone using ECC31 to 6SN7 Adapters? Im planning to purchase the Mullard ECC31 to use in place of 6SN7.
> 
> Can anyone recommend any specific make, or which ones between these two are better?
> 
> ...


 
 Either of those should work fine.
  
 ECC31 is a great tube.....enjoy.


----------



## MIKELAP

jozurr said:


> Is anyone using ECC31 to 6SN7 Adapters? Im planning to purchase the Mullard ECC31 to use in place of 6SN7.
> 
> Can anyone recommend any specific make, or which ones between these two are better?
> 
> ...


 
 I prefer these adapters the CMC socket is similar to what Woo uses in its amps         http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-ECC31-6N7G-TO-6SN7-CV181-B65-ECC32-ECC33-tube-converter-adapter-/201134198992?hash=item2ed48850d0:g:LNYAAOSwPcVVvs1s


----------



## gibosi

Recently received an early Hungarian Tungsram ECC40. To those who are new to the ECC40, it was developed by European Philips as a miniature all-glass replacement for the 6SN7. And thus, with a simple pin adapter, it is plug and play in most headphone amps designed to use the 6SN7 as a driver.
  
 Only Philips and Tungsram manufactured this tube, likely due to it's non-standard 8-pin Rimlock base. In the 1950's, Philips manufactured this tube in 5 different factories: Sittard and Eindhoven, Holland; Chartres and Suresnes, France; and Hamburg, Germany. Sometime in 1960's, it appears that all production was consolidated to Chartres and Suresnes.  
  
 For folks looking for something a bit different to try in place of the 6SN7, the ECC40 might well be worth looking into.
  
 Below, 1954 Tungsram ECC40 on the left and a later Tungsram on the right. Notice that in the later tube, the bulge at the bottom was eliminated and the bottle was made fatter and shorter.
  

  
 Next below, Tungsram on the left and Philips (Eindhoven, 1955) on the right. You can see the notch at the very bottom of the Philips tube corresponding to the glue joint where the base with the pins was attached to the glass bottle. This construction is unique to Philips.


----------



## Jozurr

Just got these very nice pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGT. They have the support rod in the middle. Im really liking the sound so far. Im curious, how good are the original short bottle 6SN7W compared to these? Is it worth spending couple of hundred on them? Will I notice the difference at all?


----------



## JazzVinyl

jozurr said:


> Just got these very nice pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGT. They have the support rod in the middle. Im really liking the sound so far. Im curious, how good are the original short bottle 6SN7W compared to these? Is it worth spending couple of hundred on them? Will I notice the difference at all?




I have these and the W's and they do sound a bit different. But if it were me, I would stay with these, they are great sounding tubes.

The W's may have just a tad more bass growl, but I like the mids of the 6SN7WGT's.


----------



## Jozurr

jazzvinyl said:


> I have these and the W's and they do sound a bit different. But if it were me, I would stay with these, they are great sounding tubes.
> 
> The W's may have just a tad more bass growl, but I like the mids of the 6SN7WGT's.




How different are we talking about? would you consider the W worth double the price for example? are these the only differences?


----------



## JazzVinyl

jozurr said:


> How different are we talking about? would you consider the W worth double the price for example? are these the only differences?




No, the sky will not open up and you won't say OMG, soooooo much better.


----------



## Skylab

I have long been a fan of the Sylvania WGT. Excellent sounding tube that does everything well and nothing poorly. Maybe not the very best at any one thing, but overall a very, very good sounding tube that's unfailingly musical.


----------



## JazzVinyl

skylab said:


> I have long been a fan of the Sylvania WGT. Excellent sounding tube that does everything well and nothing poorly. Maybe not the very best at any one thing, but overall a very, very good sounding tube that's unfailingly musical.




Agree, I love mine as well.

Happy for @Jozurr


----------



## JazzVinyl

I just spent an hour comparing the W to the WGT, my comment about more bass growl in the W is right on and, I think the W retrieves more tiny details than the WGT does. 

I could certainly live with either tube, though. 

Cheers...


----------



## Jozurr

Thanks guys. The differences don't seem all that worth it, considering I use the Ken Rads when Im craving bass, and have the ECC31 incoming.


----------



## leftside

The ECC31's are very nice. Among my favorites.


----------



## Jozurr

leftside said:


> The ECC31's are very nice. Among my favorites.


 
  
 Considering they are the same as ECC32 with adapters, and Ive heard and enjoyed the ECC32! However both the pairs of ECC32 that Ive heard, had noise on them (One much more than the other), which I dont hear on on the 6SN7 That I have. It felt like the tubes were borderline going bad, but I could be wrong. The ECC31 are NOS, so hopefully they dont have that issue.


----------



## gibosi

The ECC31/32 has an amplification factor of 32, whereas the 6SN7's amplification factor is 20. In my experience, a driver with a higher amplification factor can be a bit noisier as it tends to be more sensitive to transformer hum. But of course, every amp is different....


----------



## hypnos1

jozurr said:


> Considering they are the same as ECC32 with adapters, and Ive heard and enjoyed the ECC32! However both the pairs of ECC32 that Ive heard, had noise on them (One much more than the other), which I dont hear on on the 6SN7 That I have. It felt like the tubes were borderline going bad, but I could be wrong. The ECC31 are NOS, so hopefully they dont have that issue.


 
  
 Hi Jozurr.
  
 I have tried four NOS ECC31s in my 6SN7 driver-based Feliks-Audio Elise and haven't had the slightest hint of 'noise'...so hope you will be OK.
  
 They are indeed excellent tubes - and their bass response is quite breathtaking. Obviously results will vary between amps _and_ accompanying setup...for example, my first (excited) hearing of them was using my ESS Sabre-clad Audiolab 8200CD's DAC...but I now have a tube DAC that also uses the same Sabre chip and I have just had the surprise of my life. After being won over by the EL3N as driver I thought I'd revisit the ECC31 out of interest...and WOW!...it seems this new DAC is somehow making the 31s sing even better still - filling in any slight gaps there may have been due to the amp not being 100% configured for them.
  
 ps. My headphones are the Beyer T1s, and the DAC's tubes are Tesla E88CCs (gold pins & grid posts)...interconnects are pure silver...
  
 Good luck with your own 31s...


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> They are indeed excellent tubes - and their bass response is quite breathtaking. Obviously results will vary between amps _and_ accompanying setup...for example, my first (excited) hearing of them was using my ESS Sabre-clad Audiolab 8200CD's DAC...but I now have a tube DAC that also uses the same Sabre chip and I have just had the surprise of my life. After being won over by the EL3N as driver I thought I'd revisit the ECC31 out of interest...and WOW!...it seems this new DAC is somehow making the 31s sing even better still - filling in any slight gaps there may have been due to the amp not being 100% configured for them.




Who makes your Tube DAC, @hypnos1?


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Who makes your Tube DAC, @hypnos1?


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 The maker is a very small custom outfit here in the UK - Malbru Cables - with an amazing choice of DAC chip...ie. TDA1541 (at special price of £550) and Wolfson WM8741, PCM1794, Sabre ES9018 or AK4399 at £600....web link : http://www.malbru-cables.com/
  
 Amazing value-for-money, given its superior performance over my £800 Audiolab...


----------



## Jozurr

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html

Came across this raving review of the Shuguang Treasure CV181. Is anyone using them? the review considers it to be a contender for the ultimate tube, and the review was done when the price was 320 USD. Considering a pair can now be had or USD 120, it spiked my interest. Worth it?

It also mentions the black glass Brimar 6SN7GT to be better than the tungsols and sylvanias. Im assuming the 6SN7GT is being talked about and not the CV1988 which doesnt have such good reviews. Brent Jessee recording page also mentions these tubes to be the top of the line competing against BGRP Tung Sol and ECC32. What do you guys think?


----------



## Amish

@Jozurr I have not tried this tube but I have read about it. It might be worth a try at it's current cost. Why don't you give it a go and let us all know? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  
 Never mind I will be the guinea pig! I just ordered a matched set. I only bought two because I found a good deal on two that only cost $30 more than this tube's cost for a single.
  
 Once they arrive and after some extensive listening I will post back. I will be selling one of them as well most likely unless this tube is as good as the reviews state. Then I will pack one away so as to have a spare.


----------



## leftside

Anyone know what are the major differences between the B65 metal base and B65 black base? (besides the different bases).


----------



## gibosi

leftside said:


> Anyone know what are the major differences between the B65 metal base and B65 black base? (besides the different bases).


 
  
 I have not heard the black-base B65...
  
 However, judging from the pictures I have seen, they appear to have been manufactured later than the metal-base B65. Typically, the black-base tubes have clear glass, rectangular getters (as opposed to the cup getters on the earlier tubes) and to my eyes, it looks like the metal bracing on top of the upper mica is a little different. I have also seen clear-glass B65 with brown bases. However, since I have not heard these black or brown-based tubes, I have no idea if they sound different than the earlier, smoked metal ones.
  
 I suggest that you purchase both and compare them for us.


----------



## Oskari

jozurr said:


> Im assuming the 6SN7GT is being talked about and not the CV1988 which doesnt have such good reviews.




CV1988 is nothing but another type code for 6SN7GT.


----------



## Jozurr

oskari said:


> CV1988 is nothing but another type code for 6SN7GT.




Isnt the Brimar CV1988 the 6SN7GTY? Also having a brown base and not a black base with BVA on it


----------



## leftside

I really like the Brimar CV1988 with brown base.


----------



## Oskari

jozurr said:


> Isnt the Brimar CV1988 the 6SN7GTY? Also having a brown base and not a black base with BVA on it




http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/cv1988.pdf


----------



## Mechans1

I would have to dig through a couple of storage boxes to be certain.  I recall the Brimar black glass brown base CV1988 is also designated 6SN7GTY but not in every case. The other tubes may not have CV1988 however.
 As for sound quality preference I agree that the Brimar GTY is a very good tube and one of my favorites.  I also really like the Sylvania W,  Tung Sol RPs and the Mullard ECC32 and 33  .  I see no need to declare one above the rest unless you are pushing something.  I don't know   the Treasures personally, but a good friend of mine whose opinions I regard highly sold his,   ( pretty quickly but did run them in.)  I don't understand the almost ebullient over the top review.  When I see that kind of thing I get suspicious.  Maybe that's just me, but these tubes have been around for years now and aren't seen in friends set ups, or forum posts.


----------



## leftside

I quite like the Treasures, but it doesn't deserve that glowing review. The ECC32, 33, TS RP and Sylvania W are all better.


----------



## jhljhl

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-5670-396A-2C51-Replace-6SN7-Tube-Amplifier-Socket-Adapter-Suzier-D11-/281960489973?hash=item41a627a3f5:g:VkEAAOSw0JpV5re3
  
 Anyone try this 396a in place of 6sn7?


----------



## gibosi

jhljhl said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-5670-396A-2C51-Replace-6SN7-Tube-Amplifier-Socket-Adapter-Suzier-D11-/281960489973?hash=item41a627a3f5:g:VkEAAOSw0JpV5re3
> 
> Anyone try this 396a in place of 6sn7?


 
  
 Using a similar adapter, I've rolled a number of 396A in my Glenn OTL with absolutely no problems. I would expect that they will be fine in your WA5LE as well. For what it is worth, I like the Bendix and the Sylvania best.
  
 Edit: I should probably add that while I am quite sure they will work fine in your amp, I have no idea if they will sound good....


----------



## Mechans1

It sounds like a very expensive tube replacement choice.  There are a lot of adapters switching XXXX  tubes into 6SN7 tubes because of the great abundance of high quality NOS and OS 6SN7s. I have personally purchased an adapter of that sort, in order to use 6SN7s in a Garage 1217  "project Ember" .  The adapter itself is a 1217 product.  It is the only such adapter I own.


----------



## gibosi

And I am just the opposite....
  
 I have adapters to enable me to use many different double triodes in my 6SN7-based Glenn OTL. For example, ECC31, ECC40, ECC88, E182CC, E80CC, FDD20, 396A, 6463, 7N7, a pair of 76, and most recently 6AH7. They all work fine and sound great.


----------



## jhljhl

gibosi said:


> Using a similar adapter, I've rolled a number of 396A in my Glenn OTL with absolutely no problems. I would expect that they will be fine in your WA5LE as well. For what it is worth, I like the Bendix and the Sylvania best.
> 
> Edit: I should probably add that while I am quite sure they will work fine in your amp, I have no idea if they will sound good....


 

 I'm going to give it a try- thanks again.


----------



## Mechans1

I hope you are not saying that I said that a 396A would not work well in this amp or that amp, just expensive if my memory serves me correctly.  I also roll a lot tubes, the raison d'etre  for the Ember.
 As for your love of adapters for all causes I will now make the statement I hadn't of late.  Understand that these are not my words, but those of many other audio engineer people, thus no specific attribution.  That there are strongly held 'audiophile' tenets which hold that a minimum number of interfaces is desirable and that circuit paths be as short as possible.    Obviously,  you don't hear any artifact or appreciable negative SQ differences, and must consider these old ideas to be of limited value.
 I find that the amps I am currently using demonstrate little about the 'rollable' tubes I use now, compared to rolling tubes in amps that I have used previously.
 However I never said 396As or other tubes with adapters  won't work please recognize that.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> I hope you are not saying that I said that a 396A would not work well in this amp or that amp, just expensive if my memory serves me correctly.  I also roll a lot tubes, the raison d'etre  for the Ember.
> *As for your love of adapters for all causes I will now make the statement I hadn't of late.  Understand that these are not my words, but those of many other audio engineer people, thus no specific attribution.  That there are strongly held 'audiophile' tenets which hold that a minimum number of interfaces is desirable and that circuit paths be as short as possible.    Obviously,  you don't hear any artifact or appreciable negative SQ differences, and must consider these old ideas to be of limited value.*
> I find that the amps I am currently using demonstrate little about the 'rollable' tubes I use now, compared to rolling tubes in amps that I have used previously.
> However I never said 396As or other tubes with adapters  won't work please recognize that.


 
  
 Logically, this makes sense to me. However, these adapters typically add less than an inch of wire to the circuit path and I seriously doubt that this small amount of wire is of any consequence in regard to SQ...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Logically, this makes sense to me. However, these adapters typically add less than an inch of wire to the circuit path and I seriously doubt that this small amount of wire is of any consequence in regard to SQ...


 
  
 Hi g....all depends on the *quality* of wire used IMHO!..and some would also add _solder_, lol..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## jhljhl

gibosi said:


> Logically, this makes sense to me. However, these adapters typically add less than an inch of wire to the circuit path and I seriously doubt that this small amount of wire is of any consequence in regard to SQ...


 

  


hypnos1 said:


> Hi g....all depends on the *quality* of wire used IMHO!..and some would also add _solder_, lol..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah, quality and quantity.


----------



## gibosi

I use adapters all the time. For example, four 6BX7 in place of two 6AS7, one ECC40 in place of one 6SN7 and one 1861 rectifier (a 4-pin version of the AZ4) in place of one 5U4G. To my ears, it sounds great. 
  
 But of course, YMMV...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I use adapters all the time. For example, four 6BX7 in place of two 6AS7, one ECC40 in place of one 6SN7 and one 1861 rectifier (a 4-pin version of the AZ4) in place of one 5U4G. To my ears, it sounds great.
> 
> But of course, YMMV...


 
  
 Call me pessimist/cynic but I firmly suspect you could be living on borrowed time gibosi...or, rather, your lovely amp LOL! If Glenn had made _*all*_ those adapters - especially the multiples - I personally would feel much happier...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...I just hope your luck holds out...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 As for _sound_, I personally have found quite noticeable differences between various wires - and combinations thereof - when making my own adapters...eg. just pure silver wire or in combination with single-crystal copper wire and/or 24K gold wire...


----------



## gibosi

Making pin-adapters is about as simple as it gets. For example, a small piece of wire is used to reroute the tube's pin 8 to pin 4 in the octal socket. Again this is not rocket science. Further, Glenn has never expressed any reservations to me about my use of these adapters. In fact, he explicitly recommended the one I am using for the rectifier. So no worries. I sleep very well at night, thank you very much. lol. 
  
 And I will leave it to others to debate the "noticeable differences" that can be attributed to 1/2 inch lengths of various wires...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> *Making pin-adapters is about as simple as it gets.* For example, a small piece of wire is used to reroute the tube's pin 8 to pin 4 in the octal socket. Again this is not rocket science. Further, Glenn has never expressed any reservations to me about my use of these adapters. In fact, he explicitly recommended the one I am using for the rectifier. So no worries. I sleep very well at night, thank you very much. lol.
> 
> And I will leave it to others to debate the "noticeable differences" that can be attributed to 1/2 inch lengths of various wires...


 
  
 Hmmm...have you ever tried making ones where many of the wires have to travel in very convoluted, crisscrossing directions...plus the possible detrimental effect on connections due to the heat generated when sealing with 2-part epoxy resins? I can assure you this is NOT always "as simple as it gets"!!...try it some time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As a result, even the pro adapter makers sometimes give up on the wire method and then resort to pure PCB construction...then you have the debate of wire vs PCB lol! There's more to adapters than meets the eye...


----------



## jhljhl

hypnos1 said:


> Hmmm...have you ever tried making ones where many of the wires have to travel in very convoluted, crisscrossing directions...plus the possible detrimental effect on connections due to the heat generated when sealing with 2-part epoxy resins? I can assure you this is NOT always "as simple as it gets"!!...try it some time...:wink_face:
> 
> As a result, even the pro adapter makers sometimes give up on the wire method and then resort to pure PCB construction...then you have the debate of wire vs PCB lol! There's more to adapters than meets the eye...




Quality, quantity, safety and sound; four factors in tube adapter consideration.


----------



## hypnos1

jhljhl said:


> Quality, quantity, safety and sound; four factors in tube adapter consideration.


 
  
 Yes indeed, jhljhl....could probably come up with even more lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Jozurr

SQ wise gibosi, which tubes do you consider best sounding, regardless of type? they dont have to be 6SN7 necessarily. Im thinking if there are better tubes than for example 6SN7W that I can roll into my amp using adapters.


----------



## gibosi

Of course, some adapters are more difficult to build than others. And of course, some practitioners are more skillful than others. But again, this is not rocket science. People have been building adapters for at least 75 years. The basic technology is very well understood. And in most cases it really is as simple as connecting pin X on the tube to pin Y in the socket.
  
 In the end, I have had very good luck using a large number of adapters purchased from multiple eBay vendors. And based on my experience, if someone wants to run a 396A in their 6SN7 amp, my recommendation is simply buy a cheap adapter and do it.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Frihed89

gibosi said:


> Making pin-adapters is about as simple as it gets. For example, a small piece of wire is used to reroute the tube's pin 8 to pin 4 in the octal socket. Again this is not rocket science. Further, Glenn has never expressed any reservations to me about my use of these adapters. In fact, he explicitly recommended the one I am using for the rectifier. So no worries. I sleep very well at night, thank you very much. lol.
> 
> And I will leave it to others to debate the "noticeable differences" that can be attributed to 1/2 inch lengths of various wires...


 
 I stay away from adapters for tubes that don't have the exact same filament current as the 6SN7GT, even if they have a resistor inside.  In fact, I only use electrical equivalents with pin adapters.


----------



## jhljhl

frihed89 said:


> I stay away from adapters for tubes that don't have the exact same filament current as the 6SN7GT, even if they have a resistor inside.  In fact, I only use electrical equivalents with pin adapters.


 
  
 Such as?


----------



## gibosi

frihed89 said:


> I stay away from adapters for tubes that don't have the exact same filament current as the 6SN7GT, even if they have a resistor inside.  In fact, I only use electrical equivalents with pin adapters.


 
  
 Resistors? Why would they be necessary?
  
 And what about tubes that draw a different filament current than a 6SN7GT, but don't need adapters? Such as the ECC32?


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> frihed89 said:
> 
> 
> > I stay away from adapters for tubes that don't have the exact same filament current as the 6SN7GT, even if they have a resistor inside.  In fact, I only use electrical equivalents with pin adapters.
> ...


 

 The transformer in your amp is hefty enough to handle most anything you can through at it.


----------



## gibosi

2359glenn said:


> The transformer in your amp is hefty enough to handle most anything you can through at it.


 
  
 Yes, Glenn, I know this. 
 As long as I do not exceed the capacity of the transformer, the heater current draw makes absolutely no difference.
  
 I'm just trying to understand Frihed89's thinking on this....


----------



## Frihed89

gibosi said:


> Yes, Glenn, I know this.
> As long as I do not exceed the capacity of the transformer, the heater current draw makes absolutely no difference.
> 
> I'm just trying to understand Frihed89's thinking on this....


 
 This is correct.  But I wrote too hastily.  A competent builder can make adapters that will have the correct pin wiring and be safe, and then the only technical operation question relates realtes to the ability of the power supply to meet meet the demands of the tube. But what about the driver bias, gain, linearity, etc.? The part i didn't put in was about the characteristics of the driver circuit of non-electrical equivalents vs those of the 6SN7GT and it's electrical equivalents.  For example, to get the most out of the 5687 in a 6SN7GT driver circuit, you may find it necessary to increase the bias or increase the plate current (or both).  Linearity is not a problem.  But it can be with the 12AU7 which is not particularly linear and many believe it is a poor substitute for the 6SN7GT (and many don't).   I had the very fortunate experience to own an MPX3 (+ something) that only needed some bleeder resistors on the PS caps and elimination of the high plate voltage switch to make it safe.  I had almost all of the adapters made by SP.  The amp sounded best to me with all 6SN7GTs or their exact electrical equivalents.  Of the 12XX7 tubes, the worst was the 12AU7, and the best was probably the 12BH7.  The 12AX7 was a no-go, along with the 5751.  The 12AT7 worked as did a number of the tubes in between the gain of the 12AT7 and 12AX7, but the gain was too high for me.
  
 Builders who make amps that work with adapters probably know what they are doing.  The BottleHead Crack is probably a good example of this and so was the So was the MPX3 with the right power supply and rectifier diodes (but SP is a special example due to some bad designs and/or wrong components of other products).  The main reason, I only use the 6SN7GT, and the 7N7, 6F8G to replace it in 2 of my power amps and 1 preamp has to do with the fact that these pieces were designed around a 6SN7GT front end (and a specific output or follower tube) and I have lots of these tubes, bought years ago.  This also has a lot to do with my sonic preferences.


----------



## gibosi

Yes, driver bias, gain, linearity, and so forth are a concern when rolling. However, in my experience tubes typically seem to be very forgiving of these differences. And therefore, my philosophy is to try them and let my ears decide. 
  
 For example, the correct cathode resistance for an ECC32 is about half that of the 6SN7. However, many, myself included, find the ECC32 to be as good, or better, than most 6SN7 when installed in a 6SN7 circuit. Maybe it would sound better if the circuity was modified for an ECC32? I don't know... Maybe it sounds better precisely BECAUSE the bias is incorrect? Again, I do not know...
  
 I have two rules. One, I make sure not to exceed the transformer's capacity for heater current. And two, I avoid tubes with an amplification factor above 40 which means I do not roll 6SL7, 12AT7, 5751, 12AX7 and similar.
  
 Within these constraints, I have achieved excellent results rolling 396A, ECC40, ECC88, ECC804, E182CC, E80CC, 5687, 6463, 6AH7 and even a pair of #76 triodes.
  
 But of course, my ears and my gear. YMMV.


----------



## jamato8

I have found that while tubes can be forgiving and you can use with an adapter, which I made like 12 years ago, a 12SL7 in place of a  12AX7 and a 12SN7 in place of a 12AU7, if bias and plate voltages are "really" optimized, you are not going to hear the truth of what each tube can deliver. I have used the 76 and only after getting the bias and plate voltage exactly tuned, the sound wasn't everything that the 76 could deliver. I used high quality pots and then replaced them with good resistors. I also found that battery bias, IMO, is better than anything else.


----------



## Skylab

gibosi said:


> Maybe it sounds better precisely BECAUSE the bias is incorrect?




I believe you hit the nail on the head here. Understanding that "better" is of course subjective...a tube used a little outside its ideal parameters will very often add increased amounts of second order harmonic distortion, which most humans, your truly included, find pleasing, to a point.


----------



## hypnos1

skylab said:


> I believe you hit the nail on the head here. Understanding that "better" is of course subjective...a tube used a little outside its ideal parameters will very often add increased amounts of second order harmonic distortion, which most humans, your truly included, find pleasing, to a point.


 
  
 Could well indeed be something in what gibosi says...although I'm wondering whether other elements in the system also have a bearing on just how much these variations from optimum affect final outcome - for better or worse!
  
 In my own case, for example, ECC31s (common-cathode version of the 32, which you probably already know, lol!) perform very well in my 6SN7-driven Feliks-Audio Elise OTL amp. But _real_ magic has only just appeared with my new tube DAC - using Tesla E88CCs (gold pins and grid posts) - in place of my also ESS Sabre 9018-clad Audiolab 8200CD. The difference is not minimal...I can now appreciate why these Mullards - either 31/32 or CV181 are so highly regarded and sought after...even if their prices are indeed now rather OTT!!
  
 This aspect of tube/equipment 'synergy' certainly does appear to inhabit the realms of pure Alchemy, methinks! 
  
 ps. This 'magic' is also, no doubt, aided and abetted by my GEC CV2523s and Beyer T1s, lol...the latter for which I must thank you, as your past glowing comments on these headphones helped convince me to spend far more than I ever anticipated on cans, and have proved to be worth _every_ penny...as others also found thereafter with their Elises...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


----------



## vintinfinity

Got myself a Sylvania 6sn7 GTA L2B to roll with a BH Crack amp. Does anyone know what the L2B means?
  
 Also, I thought these were the "Chrome Domes" I was told to look for. It does have chrome flashing over most of one side and the top. however, Another auction by the same seller says in the listing "I3B chrome-dome factory code"  I saw this after purchasing the L2B stamped versions.
  
 Sounds great with a 5998 output tube. Instrumentation has a bit more of the 3d effect going on. Overall a bit less bass, but still good as compared to a late 70s coin base RCA GTB tube


----------



## gibosi

vintinfinity said:


> Got myself a Sylvania 6sn7 GTA L2B to roll with a BH Crack amp. Does anyone know what the L2B means?
> 
> Also, I thought these were the "Chrome Domes" I was told to look for. It does have chrome flashing over most of one side and the top. however, Another auction by the same seller says in the listing "I3B chrome-dome factory code" (that is a capital i) I saw this afterwards.


 
  
 I assume "6SN7GTA" is etched on top inside of a hexagon and the letters "L2B" are etched under it? L = December, 2 = 1952 and some think the B = the manufacturing plant.
  
 And "I3B" indicates a manufacturing date of August, 1953.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/3855#post_10140637
  
 Short bottles, very heavily chromed, both 6SN7GT and 6SNGTA, manufactured in the late 1940's and early 1950's, are Chrome Domes. From your description, it appears that you have the "real McCoy". 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5565#post_12340043


----------



## vintinfinity

gibosi said:


> I assume "6SN7GTA" is etched on top inside of a hexagon and the letters "L2B" are etched under it? L = December, 2 = 1952 and some think the B = the manufacturing plant.
> 
> And "I3B" indicates a manufacturing date of August, 1953.
> 
> ...


 
  
 yep, the date code is etched on below the tube model. cool, thanks for the info. I got a pretty good deal (compared to others on ebay) on a pair of them with different branding; one sylvania and one magnavox.


----------



## whirlwind

In general, I like Sylvania SN7 tubes....at least all of the ones that I have listened to.
  
 Listening to the bad boy right now, and this tube tickles my funny bone....love it


----------



## DogMeat

okay.
 how do the 3 hole "Bad Boys" differ from a set of 3 hole "Chrome Domes"?
  
 I am debating the purchase of CD's, matched circa '49 vs the purchase of a pair of the true 3 hole BB's.
  
 I like my Syl sn7's also, got the Woo-made adaptors under them.
 NICE sweet and tasty sound.
 Bring MUCH to the T1 table.


----------



## gibosi

dogmeat said:


> okay.
> how do the 3 hole "Bad Boys" differ from a set of 3 hole "Chrome Domes"?
> 
> I am debating the purchase of CD's, matched circa '49 vs the purchase of a pair of the true 3 hole BB's.
> ...


 
  
 Good info here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## DogMeat

ah yes.
 had tuned in to the wrong-ish thread.
  
 THANX!!!


----------



## Jozurr

So I just received a pair of ECC31 tubes. From what I understood, the ECC31 with an ECC31 to 6SN7 Adapter is essentially the same as ECC32, based on this post in the thread:
  
 1) "The ECC32 and ECC31 are identical except that the ECC32 has separate cathodes"
  
 2) And second, the correct cathode resistance for the ECC32 should be 1/2 to 2/3 that of a 6SN7. Well, it just so happens that tying the common cathode in an ECC31 to both 6SN7 cathodes in the socket reduces the cathode resistance by 1/2. As a result, it would appear that using such an adapter provides the ECC31 with the correct bias. On the other hand, simply sticking an ECC32 into a 6SN7 socket results in the cathode resistance being twice as high as it should be. 
  
  
 I previously used the ECC32 in my Liquid Glass amp successfully. However, when I plug in the ECC31 with the ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter in the amp, the amp trips up. This is what the manufacturer had to say about the amp:
  
 "Hi. The LG has an automatic shut off if the tube draws too much plate current. This protects the HV PS. This is probably what is happening.
  
 Although the glass can handle a wide variety of tubes there are limits on heater current and plate current."
  
 Anyone knows what's going on?


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> I previously used the ECC32 in my Liquid Glass amp successfully. However, when I plug in the ECC31 with the ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter in the amp, the amp trips up. This is what the manufacturer had to say about the amp:
> 
> "Hi. The LG has an automatic shut off if the tube draws too much plate current. This protects the HV PS. This is probably what is happening.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The ECC31 and ECC32 have identical heaters, drawing about 0.95 amps, so I doubt very much that that is the reason. From their website, it appears that the LG employs special sensing circuitry to allow it to handle a wide variety of tubes. My best guess is that that even with an adapter, the common cathode in the ECC31 is simply too strange and as a result that circuitry shuts the LG down.
  
 In more conventional amps, common-cathode double triodes, such as the ECC31, 6N7G and 6A6, with appropriate adapters, work fine.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> The ECC31 and ECC32 have identical heaters, drawing about 0.95 amps, so I doubt very much that that is the reason. From their website, it appears that the LG employs special sensing circuitry to allow it to handle a wide variety of tubes. My best guess is that that even with an adapter, the common cathode in the ECC31 is simply too strange and as a result that circuitry shuts the LG down.
> 
> In more conventional amps, common-cathode double triodes, such as the ECC31, 6N7G and 6A6, with appropriate adapters, work fine.


 
  
  
 Some more thoughts by the manufacturer:
  
     "I see. This tube cannot work in the glass and will damage it. Please note in manual only tubes with pinouts like 6sn7 or 12au7. Even though you're adapting you cannot separate the cathodes. At least as I read the data sheet. OTOH the ecc32 has separate cathodes and can be mapped to 6sn7 pinouts."


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Some more thoughts by the manufacturer:
> 
> "I see. This tube cannot work in the glass and will damage it. Please note in manual only tubes with pinouts like 6sn7 or 12au7. Even though you're adapting you cannot separate the cathodes. At least as I read the data sheet. OTOH the ecc32 has separate cathodes and can be mapped to 6sn7 pinouts."


 
  
 As I read this, common-cathode tubes are definitely a no-go in the LG. However, if a tube has separate cathodes, using an adapter to reroute the pins to match the pinout of either a 6SN7 or 12AU7 seems to be OK. So for example, it should be possible to roll 12AH7 with an adapter (6SN7) or 5687 with an adapter (12AU7).
  
 Good information for Liquid Glass owners...


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> As I read this, common-cathode tubes are definitely a no-go in the LG. However, if a tube has separate cathodes, using an adapter to reroute the pins to match the pinout of either a 6SN7 or 12AU7 seems to be OK. So for example, it should be possible to roll 12AH7 with an adapter (6SN7) or 5687 with an adapter (12AU7).
> 
> Good information for Liquid Glass owners...


 
  
 I see. Disappointed that I cant use the ECC31. Guess Ill try and find an amp which can use all 6SN7 and the ECC31, which sounds as good as the LG.
  
 Thanks for the help!


----------



## dminches

Why would you replace your amp if you like it?  A good tube can't make a bad amp sound good.  The ECC31 isn't a special tube or even a better sounding tube than an ECC32.  The equipment is much more important than the tube.


----------



## Skylab

Even the ECC32 isn't a direct equivalent for the 6SN7, much less the ECC31. It's not really reasonable to expect an amp designer to build an amp that is designed to work ideally with a 6SN7 and also work with these other tubes that aren't equivalents. There is a difference between "doesn't shut down/blow up the amp" and "doesn't work optimally", sure, but either way, with all the great 6SN7's out there, why push the envelope so hard?

Truly equivalent tubes to the 6SN7, WITH adapters, are the 6F8G and the 6FQ7/6CG7. The 5692 and CV1988 are directly compatible without adapter.


----------



## Jozurr

I understand that the ECC31 arent better than the ECC32, but since they were cheaper for NOS tubes, I went with them. I want another amp with 6SN7 tubes as drivers anyway (to use as both amp and preamp), so I might as well get an amp which also runs the ECC31. Thinking of the cheaper Feliks audio elise.


----------



## leftside

You can use the full range of the ECC31 - ECC35 tubes with the Woo Audio WA22. They are some of the best sounding (if not the best) driver tubes for that particular amp. I don't know how this amp compares to the LG though.


----------



## pctazhp

jozurr said:


> I understand that the ECC31 arent better than the ECC32, but since they were cheaper for NOS tubes, I went with them. I want another amp with 6SN7 tubes as drivers anyway (to use as both amp and preamp), so I might as well get an amp which also runs the ECC31. *Thinking of the cheaper Feliks audio elise.*


 
 Stop thinking and just buy


----------



## Jozurr

Has anyone used the EL3N tubes and compared them to the likes of BGRP and 6SN7W? Over at the Elise thread, people tout them to have even better SQ (Bass/soundstage) compared to the ECC31, which I already consider to be a great tube (Having heard the ECC32 and assuming theyre the same with adapters to 6SN7). Now I'm just worried that the EL3N might also not work on the Glass with the 6SN7 adapters.
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el3n.html


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Has anyone used the EL3N tubes and compared them to the likes of BGRP and 6SN7W? Over at the Elise thread, people tout them to have even better SQ (Bass/soundstage) compared to the ECC31, which I already consider to be a great tube (Having heard the ECC32 and assuming theyre the same with adapters to 6SN7). Now I'm just worried that the EL3N might also not work on the Glass with the 6SN7 adapters.
> 
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el3n.html


 
  
 You should know that the EL3N is a single pentode. And therefore, it is necessary to use two tubes to substitute for one 6SN7, a double triode. Moreover, it is also necessary to convert these pentodes into triodes inside the adatper. In other words, the adapter is not trivial. And while EL3N may work in the LG, I have my doubts that two adapters with four tubes will fit in the physical space allotted?


----------



## rudra

can 6sn7 be used in place of 6H9C. TIA


----------



## MikePio

Recently bought these for my tube buffer! Hopefully these are half-decent, I think they are Sylvania tubes. Can't wait to add a bit more tube flavor to my SS HD800 set-up.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> You should know that the EL3N is a single pentode. And therefore, it is necessary to use two tubes to substitute for one 6SN7, a double triode. Moreover, it is also necessary to convert these pentodes into triodes inside the adatper. In other words, the adapter is not trivial. And while EL3N may work in the LG, I have my doubts that two adapters with four tubes will fit in the physical space allotted?


 
  
 Some people have been using a single EL3N with an adapter in place of 6SN7 in the Elise.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1piece-Gold-plated-EL3-EL3N-TO-6SN7-CV181-B65-Special-tube-converter-adapter-/201589213959?hash=item2eefa74b07:g:gVQAAOSwU1FXQXCf
  
 So Im assuming this only works in the Elise then maybe?
  
 Yes theres not enough space on the glass to fit a christmas tree setup of the EL3N


----------



## gibosi

rudra said:


> can 6sn7 be used in place of 6H9C. TIA


 
  
 The 6H9C is equivalent to the 6SL7, not the 6SN7. However, people often substitute 6SN7 for 6SL7 in their headphone amps with good results, but I have no idea how it might sound in your amp.


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Some people have been using a single EL3N with an adapter in place of 6SN7 in the Elise.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1piece-Gold-plated-EL3-EL3N-TO-6SN7-CV181-B65-Special-tube-converter-adapter-/201589213959?hash=item2eefa74b07:g:gVQAAOSwU1FXQXCf
> 
> ...


 
  
 It might work in the LG. Since the LG uses two 6SN7 as drivers, it depends on how they are wired. In some amps, only one half of each 6SN7 is used. And in other amps, such as the Elise, both halves are used. However, there is more than one way to wire the two halves. If the wiring in the LG is the same as the Elise, using the Elise adapter might work. But fitting a single triode-strapped pentode into a double-triode socket means that some pins will not be connected. And this may well trip up the sensing circuitry in the LG... 
  
 So my intuition tells me that the "christmas tree setup" has the best chance of working, electrically, but, since there is not enough space, it is a no-go....


----------



## gibosi

mikepio said:


> Recently bought these for my tube buffer! Hopefully these are half-decent, I think they are Sylvania tubes. Can't wait to add a bit more tube flavor to my SS HD800 set-up.


 
  
 Yes, these are Sylvanias, probably 6SN7GTB. Enjoy.


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> It might work in the LG. Since the LG uses two 6SN7 as drivers, it depends on how they are wired. In some amps, only one half of each 6SN7 is used. And in other amps, such as the Elise, both halves are used. However, there is more than one way to wire the two halves. If the wiring in the LG is the same as the Elise, using the Elise adapter might work. But fitting a single triode-strapped pentode into a double-triode socket means that some pins will not be connected. And this may well trip up the sensing circuitry in the LG...
> 
> So my intuition tells me that the "christmas tree setup" has the best chance of working, electrically, but, since there is not enough space, it is a no-go....


 
  
 Very tempted to try and get some EL3N and give it a shot with the single tubes!  I've made my way up to the KRVT231/6SN7W on the LG, and I'm wondering where to go up from where with regards to overall SQ, (without going lower on bass). I find the ECC32, TS BGRP and Osram B36 a bit too expensive, and Im not sure if they worth are enough of an upgrade and worth the price.


----------



## JazzVinyl

jozurr said:


> Very tempted to try and get some EL3N and give it a shot with the single tubes!  I've made my way up to the KRVT231/6SN7W on the LG, and I'm wondering where to go up from where with regards to overall SQ, (without going lower on bass). I find the ECC32, TS BGRP and Osram B36 a bit too expensive, and Im not sure if they worth are enough of an upgrade and worth the price.




In the Elise, I find the EL3N to be a very dark and gloomy tube. I am surprised other Elise owners like it. 

.


----------



## leftside

Sounds perfect for some old school goth music. Sisters Of Mercy and Fields of the Nephilim would sound great


----------



## Jozurr

jazzvinyl said:


> In the Elise, I find the EL3N to be a very dark and gloomy tube. I am surprised other Elise owners like it.
> 
> .


 
  
 What tubes do you consider better?


----------



## JazzVinyl

jozurr said:


> What tubes do you consider better?




Ken-RAD VT-231 if you want big bass. ECC31 (but read you can't run them).

Mid 1940's Sylvania 6SN7W are awesome, too.

Might be a lot cheaper to insert a quality EQ than to buy dark-n-gloomy tubes to chuck off some treble...just sayin'...


----------



## MikePio

Finally got my 6SN7GTB Baldwin tubes! Burning them in but so far they sound super smooth and lush, impressive. Great synergy with the HD800 (classic). Here is a pic with the rest of my set-up.


----------



## oshipao

I am currently burning in my 1945's Sylvania VT-231. I like them really much except for the soft bass. I read that the 1943's would have greater impact and range in the lower registers. Has anyone tried both and care to comment on their experience? 1952's Bad Boys are out of my League.

And I agree with @JazzVinyl about the Ken-Rads, awsome tube. But I am looking at a smoother and sweeter treble at the moment but not at the expense of adequate bass.


----------



## dminches

Every pair of Sylvania VT-231s that I have tried have been bass light.


----------



## r one

I've never find that Ken-rad's vt231 have so much powerful basses. I highly prefer round plates tung sol for that. Impact and clarity are really better imo.


----------



## Frihed89

skylab said:


> Even the ECC32 isn't a direct equivalent for the 6SN7, much less the ECC31. It's not really reasonable to expect an amp designer to build an amp that is designed to work ideally with a 6SN7 and also work with these other tubes that aren't equivalents. There is a difference between "doesn't shut down/blow up the amp" and "doesn't work optimally", sure, but either way, with all the great 6SN7's out there, why push the envelope so hard?
> 
> Truly equivalent tubes to the 6SN7, WITH adapters, are the 6F8G and the 6FQ7/6CG7. The 5692 and CV1988 are directly compatible without adapter.


 
 You forgot the 7N7 + pin adapter.  It's basically a Sylvania 6SN7.  The original WWII versions were GT, but I see JAC sells some that are B types, which I didn't know about.  They can run at higher plate voltages.


----------



## Skylab

frihed89 said:


> You forgot the 7N7 + pin adapter.  It's basically a Sylvania 6SN7.  The original WWII versions were GT, but I see JAC sells some that are B types, which I didn't know about.  They can run at higher plate voltages.




Right you are. The 7N7 is just the Loctal base version of the 6SN7. With adapter, 100% equivalent.


----------



## Mechans1

I am not an EE but have noted that the ECC 32  does have different electrical parameter as compared with the 6SN7 GT. 
 I listened to one  last night.  It sounded great  but I know it ultimately may destroy my amp.  I say that, only because a regular contributor to AA tube asylum who sold some to  warned off excessive current draw.  Ultimately he sold me 3 of his  "Mullard NOS NIB ECC32s" .At first I bought  a pair, I loved the sound and I knew him ,and these were the first NOS ECC32 I had seen , from a vendor /hobbyist I knew a\something about.  Then I and asked for a third.  At that point, I guess his conscience got to him and he was more profuse and passionate about his earlier more muted warnings about potential incompatibility with my and other amps. 
 It was pointless, as tube roller /collector for 15 years I still had to have them.  OTOH I wasn't about to put an ECC 35 in my amp.
  
 I was trying for the umpteenth time to make my collection more orderly.  I have to say it is kind of cool to find a special tube you had forgotten was there.
  The only ECC 3_ advice I will offer is just to consult with your pre or power amplifier's manufacturer. Sadly  I think mine is in prison somewhere or snuck back into the motherland.
 I really do like your saying I" with all the great 6SN7's out there, why push the envelope so hard?"
 How bad are ECC33s BTW, I picked up a used pair on the cheap??


----------



## Mechans1

The Sylvania 6SN7 VT-231 made in 1945 is not known to have a different frequency balance i.e.  range or emphasis than the 1943 tube.  As you pointed out the  "Bad Boys" of 1952 and BTW  later1951and mid to late 1953s.   As you know it is very easy to distinguish what is a Bad Boy by simply looking at the plates.  If 3 rivets are present you have the Bad Boy. 
  
  Brent Jesse, a widely respected , Classic Tube vendor, makes a broad and I think incorrect condemnation of Bad Boy hunting, citing that the 2 rivet  bottom getter Sylvania 6SN7 GT is a great tube.  He seems to think people dismiss the 2 rivet tubes because of Bad Boy worship.  He correct the Sylvania bottom getter 6SN7 GTs of the 1940s and 1950s are really great tubes.  I disagree with his not recognizing the extra special sound from the Bad Boy tubes.  If you don't believe they are different, please try to find an actual  side by side dissection of both types by Audio Asylum's long time 6SN7 expert LEN.
  
 Finally I have found a number of true Bad Boys bottom fishing.  I think it is within your reach, but don't expect someone to announce that they are selling a matched pair of Bad Boys.  My early acquisitions were almost always in mixed tube lots.
 With that- Happy Hunting


----------



## rudra

jazzvinyl said:


> In the Elise, I find the EL3N to be a very dark and gloomy tube. I am surprised other Elise owners like it.
> 
> .


 
 there  are  whole lot of people out there who rave about the EL3N and won't take  kindly to people expressing an opinion contrary to established view.  I can understand if the amp was designed around the EL3N.  At the end I guess it is a state of mind


----------



## JoeDoe

Hi there fellow addicts! I'm currently looking for a close-matched pair of the Raytheon VT231's for my Icon HP8. If anyone has a pair that isn't getting used much, shoot me a PM please! Thanks!


----------



## Jozurr

I'm also looking for recommendations, but this time for an amp.
  
 I really enjoy my Liquid Glass. However, I need another amp which uses 6SN7 tubes. I don't want to mess with output transformers etc, so would like the output stage to be solid state like the Glass is. Im open to the idea of rectifiers etc if they are going to sound better than my Glass. 
  
 Anyone got any recommendations? Budget will be under USD 2000-2500.


----------



## JoeDoe

Just wanted to drop a line in the pool on some new tubes I've got:
  
 1. RCA 6SN7GTB black plate with coin base: pretty smokin' tube. Somewhat stereotypical tube sound - lush midrange, thick bottom, and a little sweet on top. Pairs nicely with a Genalex or Sylvania in front of it on my Icon HP8.
  
 2. Sylvania Gold Brand JAN-CHS-6SN7WGT: these are bada$$. Most holographic tube I think I've ever used. Made it take my ALpha Primes off twice to check and see if someone had just walked in the house! Wasn't an intruder, but a much more accurate front to back presentation than I've heard before! I've got a Gold Brand 3-mica 5751 en route that I'm anxious to pair with it! 
  
 Got a few other pairs of 6SN7s to chime in on later. Will update this post when that happens.


----------



## Skylab

> Sylvania Gold Brand JAN-CHS-6SN7WGT




I have always been a very big fan of this tube. I use them in my Cary SLP-05 - and they're the best all around tube in the Cary that I tried.


----------



## JoeDoe

skylab said:


> I have always been a very big fan of this tube. I use them in my Cary SLP-05 - and they're the best all around tube in the Cary that I tried.




In other tubes amps I've used, I haven't enjoyed the BG Syl as much, but this guy is blowing me away! The word that comes to mind the most is rich. Top to bottom everything sounds so lush.


----------



## Jozurr

What is the difference between the gold brand and the normal brown base 6sn7wgt? Can you please share some pics.

Thanks


----------



## JoeDoe

Honestly I'm not sure. Maybe someone more experienced can lend a hand here?
  
 Here's what mine look like:


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> What is the difference between the gold brand and the normal brown base 6sn7wgt? Can you please share some pics.


 
  
 It is important to remember that paint and graphics have no effect on the sound of the tube. If the internal construction and date of manufacture is the same for two tubes, then they will sound identical, regardless of the branding.


----------



## gibosi

joedoe said:


> Honestly I'm not sure. Maybe someone more experienced can lend a hand here?
> 
> Here's what mine look like:


 
  
 The earlier Sylvania 6SN7WGT have three-hole T-plates, one free-standing support rod, 4 “umbrella spokes” extending downwards from the top mica spacer and a fairly heavy chrome getter splash. The ones above are later, perhaps around 1960, with angled t-plates, rather light getter splash, and halo-getters.


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> What is the difference between the gold brand and the normal brown base 6sn7wgt? Can you please share some pics.


 
  
 And to answer your question a bit more directly...  Originally, Sylvania produced and sold the 6SN7WGT to the military. But it would appear that one day, someone at Sylvania had a brilliant idea. How about selling WGT tubes to the public as a "premium" tube for a premium price? So they labeled them as Gold Brand and marketed them as their very best premium tubes. But again, it is still a 6SN7WGT. There is no difference.


----------



## Skylab

Right, I would call the "difference" of Gold Brand just "marketing" 

But the brown base 6SN7WGT is a very,very fine tube.


----------



## jhljhl

Recent comparison: Mullard ecc33 sounds like a more relaxed ecc35. Ecc35 sounds more hifi.


----------



## ericr

gibosi said:


> And to answer your question a bit more directly...  Originally, Sylvania produced and sold the 6SN7WGT to the military. But it would appear that one day, someone at Sylvania had a brilliant idea. How about selling WGT tubes to the public as a "premium" tube for a premium price? So they labeled them as Gold Brand and marketed them as their very best premium tubes. But again, it is still a 6SN7WGT. There is no difference.




Do you have a link, reference, or source for this?


----------



## whirlwind

_I have been enjoying a Sylvania 6SN7W for about a week now....thanks @gibosi_
  
_Wonderful tube and could highly recommend for any detail freaks out there.......not much in the low end, but fantastic mids and treble._
  
_I am running it with 5998 power tubes and I am going to leave this combo in for a while._


----------



## pctazhp

whirlwind said:


> _I have been enjoying a Sylvania 6SN7W for about a week now....thanks @gibosi_
> 
> _Wonderful tube and could highly recommend for any detail freaks out there.......not much in the low end, but fantastic mids and treble._
> 
> _I am running it with 5998 power tubes and I am going to leave this combo in for a while._


 
 I agree with you that the Sylvania 6SN7W is a great tube and usually not priced in the stratosphere. I would simply say I think it is pretty decent in the bass, but probably not the tube for bass freaks.


----------



## dminches

pctazhp said:


> I agree with you that the Sylvania 6SN7W is a great tube and usually not priced in the stratosphere. I would simply say I think it is pretty decent in the bass, but probably not the tube for bass freaks.


 
  
 If one is truly a bass freak they should select equipment to produce the desired amount of bass. Tube selection will only get you so far.  And if you are listening to speakers your room should be properly treated to get the full effect.


----------



## gibosi

ericr said:


> Do you have a link, reference, or source for this?


 
  
 It is common knowledge that the text and graphics painted on tubes was mainly for marketing purposes. And in fact, sometimes it is incorrect. I often see tubes that are mislabeled in terms of tube-type, country of origin and brand. Typically, tubes were painted at the time of packaging and the text and graphics often reflect the end user. On the other hand, etched and/or sand-blasted text and graphics were applied during the manufacturing process and these can be very useful in accurately identifying the tube in question.
  
 On the Sylvania pictured above, the etched tube-type, "6SN7WGT" can be clearly seen. Further, the internal construction indicates that the manufacturer was Sylvania, not Tung-Sol or Raytheon. Therefore, this tube is a Sylvania 6SN7WGT. And any painted text and/or graphics applied after the manufacturing process might be interesting, but again, it was more about marketing than anything else.


----------



## gibosi

pctazhp said:


> I agree with you that the Sylvania 6SN7W is a great tube and usually not priced in the stratosphere. I would simply say I think it is pretty decent in the bass, but probably not the tube for bass freaks.


 
  
 Yes indeed, it can often be found quite inexpensively. For example:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sylvania-JAN-CHS-6SN7WGT-U-S-Military-Tube-Chrome-Dome-/112145739745


----------



## Jozurr

amish said:


> @Jozurr I have not tried this tube but I have read about it. It might be worth a try at it's current cost. Why don't you give it a go and let us all know?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Amish,
  
 Did you receive these tubes? Curious to hear your impressions and how they compare to other NOS tubes like the TS BGRP/6SN7W/ KR VT231 etc.


----------



## Amish

jozurr said:


> Hi Amish,
> 
> Did you receive these tubes? Curious to hear your impressions and how they compare to other NOS tubes like the TS BGRP/6SN7W/ KR VT231 etc.


 

 I did! and I never put them in. I have them in a box somewhere. My Ember has not been powered on in awhile as my maggie 8802 gets most of my attention these days. The Ember is a fantastic amp but compared to my Maggie ...well it doesn't compare at all. I should sell the Ember but I have so many tubes for it I would never get my monies worth out of it. Maybe I should add it to my ebay store.


----------



## Jozurr

amish said:


> I did! and I never put them in. I have them in a box somewhere. My Ember has not been powered on in awhile as my maggie 8802 gets most of my attention these days. The Ember is a fantastic amp but compared to my Maggie ...well it doesn't compare at all. I should sell the Ember but I have so many tubes for it I would never get my monies worth out of it. Maybe I should add it to my ebay store.




Would love to hear your thoughts on them since im considering buyng them!


----------



## Amish

jozurr said:


> Would love to hear your thoughts on them since im considering buyng them!


 

 I will look for them over the weekend. Not sure where I put it. I have a number of tubes I have not tried yet. I'll post once I spend some time with it. I will like several days to listen to it before commenting but I promise I will get back to you once I have.
  
 /update: I was removing and installing light fixtures the entire day so I didn't get around to looking for those tubes I bought. The wife asked me to swap out a ceiling fan, then next thing I knew I was replacing every single light fixture in the house. gahhh...


----------



## Amish

jozurr said:


> Would love to hear your thoughts on them since im considering buyng them!


 
  
@Jozurr
 Well I let the tube burn in all of Monday and Tuesday and now I sat down for the first time to listen to it. WOW. I'm kicking myself in the butt for not putting this in sooner. I have some pretty sought after tubes in my collection and this is by far (so far) the best sounding tube I have ever had in the Ember. So clean sounding. I'm a little shocked at the low noise floor of this tube. I'm used to tubes putting a little noise out when no music is playing and this thing is so quiet! What a pleasant surprise. It helps to produce some nice clean highs, very deep bass compared to most of my tubes kinda reminds me of some of my punchy 60's era bugle boys and it has a very smooth mid-range. Lots of body and space. Clarity abounds and a richness to the music is very welcome. Fantastic tube!
  
 You know I really didn't care about tossing this tube in because ever since I received my custom tube amp I have not really powered the Ember up but a few short times and I was already happy with the 6SN7 tube I had in. It wasn't until you quoting me that I even thought to put it in. My tube list in my profile is a decent size and I have around 28 additional tubes not on my list. Since I have not been tube rolling in awhile (too many tubes lol) I just forgot about the treasure tube.
  
 Well let me just say it is worth every single penny. What a lively tube and so damn quiet. Cranking it up past 11 and my Senns are really moving. I'll toss on the LCD2's later but right now the HD600's are reacting very well. I'm going to be ignoring my Maggie for awhile.
  
 P.S. I will not be selling my spare. This is such a special tube I will keep it as a back up.


----------



## Astral Abyss

amish said:


> @Jozurr
> Well I let the tube burn in all of Monday and Tuesday and now I sat down for the first time to listen to it. WOW. I'm kicking myself in the butt for not putting this in sooner. I have some pretty sought after tubes in my collection and this is by far (so far) the best sounding tube I have ever had in the Ember. So clean sounding. I'm a little shocked at the low noise floor of this tube. I'm used to tubes putting a little noise out when no music is playing and this thing is so quiet! What a pleasant surprise. It helps to produce some nice clean highs, very deep bass compared to most of my tubes kinda reminds me of some of my punchy 60's era bugle boys and it has a very smooth mid-range. Lots of body and space. Clarity abounds and a richness to the music is very welcome. Fantastic tube!
> 
> You know I really didn't care about tossing this tube in because ever since I received my custom tube amp I have not really powered the Ember up but a few short times and I was already happy with the 6SN7 tube I had in. It wasn't until you quoting me that I even thought to put it in. My tube list in my profile is a decent size and I have around 28 additional tubes not on my list. Since I have not been tube rolling in awhile (too many tubes lol) I just forgot about the treasure tube.
> ...


 
  
 Is that a Shuguang?


----------



## Amish

astral abyss said:


> Is that a Shuguang?


 
 Indeed. Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z


----------



## Jozurr

amish said:


> @Jozurr
> Well I let the tube burn in all of Monday and Tuesday and now I sat down for the first time to listen to it. WOW. I'm kicking myself in the butt for not putting this in sooner. I have some pretty sought after tubes in my collection and this is by far (so far) the best sounding tube I have ever had in the Ember. So clean sounding. I'm a little shocked at the low noise floor of this tube. I'm used to tubes putting a little noise out when no music is playing and this thing is so quiet! What a pleasant surprise. It helps to produce some nice clean highs, very deep bass compared to most of my tubes kinda reminds me of some of my punchy 60's era bugle boys and it has a very smooth mid-range. Lots of body and space. Clarity abounds and a richness to the music is very welcome. Fantastic tube!
> 
> You know I really didn't care about tossing this tube in because ever since I received my custom tube amp I have not really powered the Ember up but a few short times and I was already happy with the 6SN7 tube I had in. It wasn't until you quoting me that I even thought to put it in. My tube list in my profile is a decent size and I have around 28 additional tubes not on my list. Since I have not been tube rolling in awhile (too many tubes lol) I just forgot about the treasure tube.
> ...


 
  
 Those are indeed great impressions and make me very interested in buying a pair of the CV-181Z. Considering a pair is now available for USD 110, I think I might as well get one. 
  
 I saw the tubes in your profile and my Liquid Glass amp can roll most of them. If you had to rank the top 3 tubes in your list, how would you rank them?
  
 Thanks for the impressions!


----------



## Amish

jozurr said:


> Those are indeed great impressions and make me very interested in buying a pair of the CV-181Z. Considering a pair is now available for USD 110, I think I might as well get one.
> 
> I saw the tubes in your profile and my Liquid Glass amp can roll most of them. If you had to rank the top 3 tubes in your list, how would you rank them?
> 
> Thanks for the impressions!


 
  
  
 Hmmm just three? As of right now I would choose:
  
 1. Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z
 2. 1964 Amperex Holland treble clef logo Bugle Boy 12ax7 
 3. 1959 Telefunken 12AT7
 Honorable mention: Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT VT-231 (I use this most of the time so as not to put all my hours on my fav tubes.)
  
 I tend to prefer Telefunken and Amperex tubes from the 50's through 60's and of the 12AX or 12AT variety. Telefunken seem to provide a more lush sound while the Amperex seem to provide deeper harder hitting bass with great highs.


----------



## jhljhl

amish said:


> Hmmm just three? As of right now I would choose:
> 
> 1. Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z
> 2. 1964 Amperex Holland treble clef logo Bugle Boy 12ax7
> ...


 
 Maybe try an ecc31?


----------



## Amish

jozurr said:


> Those are indeed great impressions and make me very interested in buying a pair of the CV-181Z. Considering a pair is now available for USD 110, I think I might as well get one.
> 
> I saw the tubes in your profile and my Liquid Glass amp can roll most of them. If you had to rank the top 3 tubes in your list, how would you rank them?
> 
> Thanks for the impressions!


 
  
 Your Liquid Glass is in an entirely different class as my Ember. I wonder what the combo will sound like?! Amazing I'm sure.


----------



## Mechans1

jhljhl said:


> Maybe try an ecc31?


 

 I have used ECC32s in there but I hate to be the bad news bore.  I really think that Garage 1217 is a very talented duo that can do even better. 
 I read somewhere in this thread an output transformerphobic sound loving listener/audiophile that he didn't want tube outputs but was happy using and playing around with  quite a few large octals .  He also ignored the numerous OTLs around!
  I have both types of amps.  No I don't have an Elise but that circuit is not anything new nor should it be necessarily.  Why screw up a good thing.  The sound of a tube output stage amp has a certain gravitas that chip amps just don't convey.  Maybe it is all in peoples heads?  I don't know. Now back to the question at hand.   Why not lead the preamp section as it currently is in the Ember which is a tube rollers dream (like me)  and add a tubed output power section on it for people who like that also. 
  A bit on Rolling Optional reading..
 Before my near death torture of a divorce forcing me to leave a Jadis DA 60 in my former home, I was able to roll tubes in the power section if I chose to.  8 matched tubes is not easy to acquire so I rolled some really bad Russian EL-34s (no really bad honest) to a matched octet of excellent Russian Gold Lion KT-88s .  That was really great, the amp used 3 X 12AU7s and 2 X 12AX7s.   I rolled them a few times but preferred Sylvania Black plate triple mica 5157s for the 12AX7s and 7316s for the 12AU7s.  It was sweet.  I don't think my ex knows that the power tubes need to be changed. I ran it daily for 2 years.
  but read this-I have a really great friend who used to import gear and tubes from China.  He and I are  both 6SN7 lovers obviously, he bought some of the 'Treasure CV181' black glass and ran them for a while in a preamp and thought littler of them.  A bit of radio opaque black paint and gold letter do cost something.  I trust his opinion, but will try them someday.  If you want the best imaging midrange and clear treble you should invest in some Sylvania Ws.  If you want dynamics slam an d really great bass with at least good mids and treble you want Tung Soil Round Plates.
Finally the Telefunkens if genuine, are almost invariably the cleanest sounding tube around.  Could you have mistaken which tube did what? I love the Amperex 12AU7 sound albeit used initially because it is super quiet, in early computers and  a clinical lab testing equipment, the 7316.  I understand that the Amperex 7318 is at leasat as good but unbelievably rare.  I have never even seen one. If you have one to sell or trade please send me a PM.  BTW All 7316s were made by Amperex in Heerlen Holland during the late 50s through the mid 60s.  I am not sure why they all have an acid etch with a Ctl with a digit on top,  then the right triangle and 3 letters or numbers.
I did say Bore!!


----------



## leftside

The ECC 3x tubes get my vote. I'm running the ECC 31 with adapter in my Woo Audio WA22, but have been equally impressed with the ECC 32, ECC 33 and ECC 35. I also have the ECC 34, but seem to slightly prefer the other ECC 3x tubes.


----------



## Jozurr

amish said:


> Your Liquid Glass is in an entirely different class as my Ember. I wonder what the combo will sound like?! Amazing I'm sure.


 
  
 I've only rolled the 6SN7/12SN7 tubes on it and not any of the Noval tubes. Maybe I should give those a shot.


----------



## Jozurr

leftside said:


> The ECC 3x tubes get my vote. I'm running the ECC 31 with adapter in my Woo Audio WA22, but have been equally impressed with the ECC 32, ECC 33 and ECC 35. I also have the ECC 34, but seem to slightly prefer the other ECC 3x tubes.


 
  
 Im really going to buy a pair of the ECC32 since ECC31 didnt work on the Glass.
  
 On another note, I received the NOS TS BGRP tubes, and the hype is real. I wasn't expecting it and felt like they might be over hyped, but apparently not.


----------



## Mechans1

My understanding is that the ECC 32 draws more amperage than a 6SN7, I don't recall what the ECC33 draws.  I am fortunate to have very good examples of both.  The 32s have more gain which sort cheats,  you might conclude it has a bigger slamming tube, but actually hasn't made me think so.  The ECC 32  does have a certain "gravitas"  not seen in the straight bottle tubes.  The ECC33  sound is more like a regular 6SN7, with an emphasis on clarity, midrange energy and detail retrieval.
 I have only 4 pairs of the Tung Sol GT round plate.  Which BTW are always in black glass so if you have a true  TS RP you don't need to add BG, people please.
 2 of the pairs were bottom feeder tubes I bought a decade or more ago, only one other pair proved to be a really good sounding tube.  I have bought a pair of very original TS gts from military stock which are stupendous.
 I am holding back my thoughts on these RPs because I Iwant to see what others say first,


----------



## Frihed89

mechans1 said:


> My understanding is that the ECC 32 draws more amperage than a 6SN7, I don't recall what the ECC33 draws.  I am fortunate to have very good examples of both.  The 32s have more gain which sort cheats,  you might conclude it has a bigger slamming tube, but actually hasn't made me think so.  The ECC 32  does have a certain "gravitas"  not seen in the straight bottle tubes.  The ECC33  sound is more like a regular 6SN7, with an emphasis on clarity, midrange energy and detail retrieval.
> I have only 4 pairs of the Tung Sol GT round plate.  Which BTW are always in black glass so if you have a true  TS RP you don't need to add BG, people please.
> 2 of the pairs were bottom feeder tubes I bought a decade or more ago, only one other pair proved to be a really good sounding tube.  I have bought a pair of very original TS gts from military stock which are stupendous.
> I am holding back my thoughts on these RPs because I Iwant to see what others say first,


 
 This thread has gotten pretty far afield from 6SN7 tubes.


----------



## leftside

There are many amps though where the ECC3x tubes can be used as direct replacements for a 6SN7. I really like some 6SN7 tubes, but I just happen to slightly prefer the ECC3x range of tubes in my amp.


----------



## jhljhl

jozurr said:


> Im really going to buy a pair of the ECC32 since ECC31 didnt work on the Glass.
> 
> On another note, I received the NOS TS BGRP tubes, and the hype is real. I wasn't expecting it and felt like they might be over hyped, but apparently not.


 

 I agree the TS BGRP are very nice tubes. There is clarity/transparency with a touch of warnth and good frequency extension top to bottom. Same with the 6f8g version.  If you can try the ts bgrp 6sl7/6su7 they are very smooth sounding tubes good but not quite as transparent as their 6sn7.


----------



## Mechans1

jozurr said:


> Im really going to buy a pair of the ECC32 since ECC31 didnt work on the Glass.
> 
> On another note, I received the NOS TS BGRP tubes, and the hype is real. I wasn't expecting it and felt like they might be over hyped, but apparently not.
> 
> As I said  there are differences in the ECC3X tubes. The ECC 32 and 33 I have described above.  The ECC34/35s are more like a 6SL7s.  There is a wealth of information available but most it deals with technical matters that are inaccessible to non  EE types or even pretend EE types like myself. ( I try but just can't figure this stuff out on my own, would love a podcast or whatever it's called to have it explained.)


 
 Nonetheless  you might want to try a search in the Tubes Asylum of Audio Asylum.


----------



## Jozurr

mechans1 said:


> I hope you realize that the differences in the ECC3x  tubes is significant.  The commonplace analogy is that the ECC32 is sort of like a 6SN7 but draws more current and( has a greater Mu factor I think).    The ECC33 is also said to be an approximation to the 6SN7 as well.  Since you prolly like a graphite shaded tube with a nice curvy figure the ECC 32 may be  more aesthetically pleasing.  The ECC33s I own are straight sided and clear glass.
> Whereas the ECC34/35s are more like a 6SL7s.  There is a wealth of information available but most it deals with technical matters that are inaccessible to non  EE types or even pretend EE types like myself. ( I try but just can't figure this stuff out on my own, would love a podcast or whatever it's called to have it explained.
> Nonetheless  you might want to try a search in the Tubes Asylum of Audio Asylum.


 
  
 From what I understand, the ECC31 is exactly similar sounding to the ECC32 which just has separate cathodes, which are not tied together like they are on the ECC31. 
  
 Not entirely sure what the differences between the ECC32/33/34/35 are.


----------



## gibosi

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/154/e/ECC32.pdf
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/129/e/ECC33.pdf
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/129/e/ECC34.pdf
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/154/e/ECC35.pdf


----------



## Jozurr

gibosi said:


> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/154/e/ECC32.pdf
> 
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/129/e/ECC33.pdf
> 
> ...




I meant the differences in sound.


----------



## leftside

I started a 31/32/33/34/35 thread here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/808322/ecc31-ecc32-ecc33-ecc34-ecc35-tube-addicts/15#post_12839415


----------



## Scutey

Hi guys, I was wondering if you might be able to help.
  
 I was thinking of trying some 6sn7 tubes in my LD MKIII via an 6sn7 to 6cg7 adapter, I have read some of the reviews and comments on Head-Fi of the best sounding tubes to go for but they all seem to be quite pricey, ie north of £30/$40 each, I have noticed however you can pic up russian versions on ebay for well under £15/$20 each, are these worth trying?. I'm after something fairly warm, detailed and with decent bass, any advice, recomendations would be very appreciated!.


----------



## Jozurr

Anyone knows how the Marconiphone B36 (12V) compare to the likes of BGRP, KenRad VT231 and ECC32?


----------



## gibosi

jozurr said:


> Anyone knows how the Marconiphone B36 (12V) compare to the likes of BGRP, KenRad VT231 and ECC32?


 
  
 In my opinion, compared to the other drivers you list, the GEC/MOV B36 is a bit thinner in the upper bass and midrange with very airy highs. It is a unique sound with a lot of appeal to detail freaks. However, I find it to be very system-dependent. For example, to my ears, the B36 really shines with 5998 power tubes and a Cossor 53KU. On the other hand, again in my experience, running the B36 in a system with either, or both, the GEC/MOV 6AS7 and/or GEC/MOV U52 is just too thin and too airy. Too much "GEC Goodness" so to speak. lol. But of course, my ears and my gear. YMMV.


----------



## TDL-speakers

My 1943- RCA 6SN7-GT.
  
 S.
  
 http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/TDL-STUDIO/15235449_10209877452567360_2351080734093310933_o_zps6h7vdsuo.jpg
  
 http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/TDL-STUDIO/15289079_10209877457447482_6077754989673961654_o_zpswbawajlf.jpg
  
 http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/TDL-STUDIO/15289094_10209877455447432_2539820151404376157_o_zps8gjtz4kf.jpg


----------



## Mechans1

scutey said:


> Hi guys, I was wondering if you might be able to help.
> 
> I was thinking of trying some 6sn7 tubes in my LD MKIII via an 6sn7 to 6cg7 adapter, I have read some of the reviews and comments on Head-Fi of the best sounding tubes to go for but they all seem to be quite pricey, ie north of £30/$40 each, I have noticed however you can pic up russian versions on ebay for well under £15/$20 each, are these worth trying?. I'm after something fairly warm, detailed and with decent bass, any advice, recomendations would be very appreciated!.



Yes the aforementioned grey glass RCAs if you can get them at that price, are often described as lush, whatever that sounds like. More commonly at that price Sylvania GTBs, green lettering if possible which I find sound full rich and mellow. Trailing but really not as bad as one might think for their price Re GE GTBs, you might wan t to give them a shot.
I don't know anything about GEC B36s and have but a few examples of their rarified 6SN7 cousins.


----------



## Scutey

mechans1 said:


> Yes the aforementioned grey glass RCAs if you can get them at that price, are often described as lush, whatever that sounds like. More commonly at that price Sylvania GTBs, green lettering if possible which I find sound full rich and mellow. Trailing but really not as bad as one might think for their price Re GE GTBs, you might wan t to give them a shot.
> I don't know anything about GEC B36s and have but a few examples of their rarified 6SN7 cousins.


 
 Hi, Thanks for the advice!, I missed out on a NOS pair of RCA grey glass a couple of weeks ago, think they only went for about £20/$25, 6SN7s aren't as plentiful in the UK as the USA and although a lot of sellers will post to the UK postage can be expensive plus customs, I did, however manage to win an auction a couple days ago on NOS matched pair of Philips JAN6SN7WGTA, should get them in a day or so, and I will keep my eyes open for the RCAs and the GEs.


----------



## Mechans1

You might see/hear the JAN WGTA as fast and clean The tube you may find that best meets your criteria is the Sylvania GTB , I would not ignore these. 
The RCAs really need to be the grey glass not graphite nor the billions of clear glass examples. There is a special 5692 red base you might like but they are usally royally expensive.


----------



## JohnBal

My favorite reasonably priced tube is the CBS 6SN7:
  





  
 With the bottom getter. There are rebranded GE with the side getter flashing, but they are not nearly as nice.


----------



## Scutey

mechans1 said:


> You might see/hear the JAN WGTA as fast and clean The tube you may find that best meets your criteria is the Sylvania GTB , I would not ignore these.
> The RCAs really need to be the grey glass not graphite nor the billions of clear glass examples. There is a special 5692 red base you might like but they are usally royally expensive.


 
 Thanks for the advice mechans, I rather like both fast and clean, with some warm drivers, Mullard, EI 6HM5, and the more warm smooth sound, I've heard good reviews on the Sylvania GTB so that might be another contender. Cheers!.


----------



## Jozurr

johnbal said:


> My favorite reasonably priced tube is the CBS 6SN7:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I always thought these were inferior to the pre-CBS Hytron Tubes (Hytron Long Bottle), which are reasonably priced as well.


----------



## JohnBal

jozurr said:


> I always thought these were inferior to the pre-CBS Hytron Tubes (Hytron Long Bottle), which are reasonably priced as well.



These CBS have the same tall bottle as the Hytron. I don't have any with only the Hytron label, but I have some labeled CBS/Hytron, and they sound similar to my CBS. I'm not sure if they sound exactly like the Hytron or not at all. But the short bottle GE rebrand with the side getter are nothing like either CBS/Hytron. I suppose it's because they are really GE.


----------



## Scutey

Also have some PSVANE UK-6SN7s on the way, really looking forward to giving them a good go!.


----------



## gibosi

johnbal said:


> .................But the short bottle GE rebrand with the side getter are nothing like either CBS/Hytron. I suppose it's because they are really GE.


 
  
 While some assert that the small bottle CBS/Hytron with side getters are GE rebrands, I doubt it. If this was true, then the CBS/Hytrons would have GE-style large grey flat-plates with ‘ladder’ ridges. But in fact, these later CBS/Hytron have Sylvania-style shiny angled black T-plates
  
 True, both the GE and later CBS/Hytron have similar sandblasted tube-numbers and dating-dots in the glass. However, on close examination, there are some differences in the way these markings were applied. And thus one could speculate that CBS had merely copied the GE practice of marking their tubes in this way.
  
 And it is certainly possible CBS contracted with GE to manufacture their tubes using Sylvania-style plates, but this begs the question, "Why?"
  
 So while these later CBS certainly sound different than the older CBS/Hytron with Sylvania-style "Bad Boy" plates, I doubt that GE made them.


----------



## ericr

jozurr said:


> I always thought these were inferior to the pre-CBS Hytron Tubes (Hytron Long Bottle), which are reasonably priced as well.




FWIW, I have a 1950-52 (pre CBS) Hytron that looks like what @Johnbal posted


----------



## JohnBal

gibosi said:


> While some assert that the small bottle CBS/Hytron with side getters are GE rebrands, I doubt it. If this was true, then the CBS/Hytrons would have GE-style large grey flat-plates with ‘ladder’ ridges. But in fact, these later CBS/Hytron have Sylvania-style shiny angled black T-plates
> 
> True, both the GE and later CBS/Hytron have similar sandblasted tube-numbers and dating-dots in the glass. However, on close examination, there are some differences in the way these markings were applied. And thus one could speculate that CBS had merely copied the GE practice of marking their tubes in this way.
> 
> ...


 
 I certainly can't argue with any of that. But they question of "Why" is the kicker for me. If CBS were to change the manufacture process of their 6SN7, why would they manufacture a near clone of the GE tube, right down to the dots on the glass? I understand what you're saying, but I cannot be convinced that these are not made by GE and rebranded for CBS. We will probably never know the actual correct answer. But regardless who manufactured them, I think we cannot argue, that they are in no way the same as the clear glass tall bottle referenced above.


----------



## Scutey

Santa sent me a rather nice pressie.... a matched pair of PSVANE UK-6SN7s. looking forward to trying em out!.


----------



## Mechans1

In reference to the Hytron variatIons. My experience is that the Hytron Hytron original and the CBS Hytron are about the same in sound. These are the tubes with the high mounted plates, (sorry no pic to insert). You can find examples all over.
Indeed the CBS tubes dreived from there regardless of whichever narrative you choose sound different. I would cautio reading too much into apparent plate structure. They are good at identifying tube varieties but don't always predict sound quality. 
What surprises me no end is that the Hytron is IME the fastest of all 6SN7S also clean as the proverbial whistle. Not sure why warmth seekers would want them, they synergize wel with sluggish systems. 
BTW just to show off a bit I think I own almost all of the Hytron and the CBS Hytrons and CBS. I don't have my collection near me right now. I am convolescing .


----------



## Jozurr

mechans1 said:


> In reference to the Hytron variatIons. My experience is that the Hytron Hytron original and the CBS Hytron are about the same in sound. These are the tubes with the high mounted plates, (sorry no pic to insert). You can find examples all over.
> Indeed the CBS tubes dreived from there regardless of whichever narrative you choose sound different. I would cautio reading too much into apparent plate structure. They are good at identifying tube varieties but don't always predict sound quality.
> What surprises me no end is that the Hytron is IME the fastest of all 6SN7S also clean as the proverbial whistle. Not sure why warmth seekers would want them, they synergize wel with sluggish systems.
> BTW just to show off a bit I think I own almost all of the Hytron and the CBS Hytrons and CBS. I don't have my collection near me right now. I am convolescing .




Hytrons sound very solid state like in a good way. I like how fast the transients are on them.


----------



## r one

Hi all
 a new 6sn7 ?
 http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Other_brands_OEM_Tubes_Psvane_Reference_T_Series/Psvane_UK_6SN7_Hi_Fi_vacuum_tube_matched_single_4720
 i've never heard nothing about this reference !


----------



## leftside

More expensive version:
 http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Other_brands_OEM_Tubes_Preamp_doubletriodes/Psvane_CV181_T_MII_2_6SN7GT_Matched_Pair_3722


----------



## r one

Ah ok ! It's the same tube but with not grey coated glass.


----------



## Mechans1

jozurr said:


> Hytrons sound very solid state like in a good way. I like how fast the transients are on them.[/quote
> That is a great description, If you want to try them try to get the high mounted plate tubes, labeled Hytron or CBS Hytron. Personally I use tubes to create the most extensive soundstage I can, not just to warm things up, which I also like .


----------



## Frihed89

To those who are looking for "substitutes" for the 6SN7, my own experience is that nothing else on earth can sound as good, or so varied by mfr. and type, as a vintage 6SN7GT, 6SN7W, 6SN7WGT, 6F8G, or 7N7.  Truth in selling and price ARE serious issues. However, you can try a used tube dealer with whom I have dealt over a number of years, BYRD, at electrostatic69@twcny.rr.com.  I have always found him to be scrupulously honest in his measurements and reasonably priced.  I have no commercial affiliation with BYRD, except as a very content buyer.  However, I don't know what his current 6SN7GT inventory looks like these days.


----------



## belgiangenius

Interested to hear comments of tubes in amplifier stage vs buffer stage.  I just got a Schiit Freya and it takes 4 tubes, 2 for the amplifier stage and 2 for the buffer stage.
  
 So far I bought 6 tubes to play with:  2X Kenrad VT-231, 2X Sylvania VT-231, and 2X Sylvania 6sN7 1952 chrome domes.
  
 I like the Kenrad in the amplifier stage so far for the bass.  At the moment I like the chrome domes in the buffer stage.
  
 There is a lot of talk about the sonic characteristics of different tubes in the amplifier stage, but what sorts of tubes should one be putting in the buffer stage?


----------



## Jozurr

belgiangenius said:


> Interested to hear comments of tubes in amplifier stage vs buffer stage.  I just got a Schiit Freya and it takes 4 tubes, 2 for the amplifier stage and 2 for the buffer stage.
> 
> So far I bought 6 tubes to play with:  2X Kenrad VT-231, 2X Sylvania VT-231, and 2X Sylvania 6sN7 1952 chrome domes.
> 
> ...




What is the difference between Buffer and amplifier stage? Does the freya come with tubes? Can you use one of the stages only or youd have to use both?


----------



## hackstu

Does anyone know of a genuine supplier of psvane/shuagang tube/valves on ebay??


----------



## Jozurr

hackstu said:


> Does anyone know of a genuine supplier of psvane/shuagang tube/valves on ebay??


 
  
 They usually say it on their e-bay page but there's no way to know for sure.


----------



## belgiangenius

Could someone knowledgeable give us a short description of how tubes are matched and what sufficient matching is?
  
 I'm talking to a guy saying two tubes tested excellent on a calibrated Hickok TV-10 with 1650/1650 being nominal one tested at 2750/2750 mhms and the other at 2750/2700 mhms. Based on those numbers, he says they're perfectly matched.  Comments?


----------



## Jozurr

belgiangenius said:


> Could someone knowledgeable give us a short description of how tubes are matched and what sufficient matching is?
> 
> I'm talking to a guy saying two tubes tested excellent on a calibrated Hickok TV-10 with 1650/1650 being nominal one tested at 2750/2750 mhms and the other at 2750/2700 mhms. Based on those numbers, he says they're perfectly matched.  Comments?


 
  
 The general idea I believe is that the plate current between tubes should not vary by more than 5%, and in this case it seems like the variation is 50/2750 = 1.8%, so if the measurements are correct, they would indeed  be a matched pair.


----------



## dminches

belgiangenius said:


> Could someone knowledgeable give us a short description of how tubes are matched and what sufficient matching is?
> 
> I'm talking to a guy saying two tubes tested excellent on a calibrated Hickok TV-10 with 1650/1650 being nominal one tested at 2750/2750 mhms and the other at 2750/2700 mhms. Based on those numbers, he says they're perfectly matched.  Comments?




Most people don't have the equipment to test if tubes are matched. Sellers will compare the tube structure and the mutual conductance but people who really understand this will say that is just a fair guide.

According to Bob Putnak, at tubesound.com who is one of the gurus...

(4) the fourth school of thought is “total distortion” — meaning that output tubes are truly matched when the total distortion of your amp is lowest vis-a-vis another set of tubes.

Neither a tube tester, nor a curve tracer, measures an amplifier’s output distortion. For that, you need an automatic distortion meter and low-distortion signal source, and a lot of experience. The tubes are placed into the amp, biased correctly, and driven to max output before clipping. Distortion is measured. Tubes that do not pair well together will have higher residual distortion than a nicely matched pair. This method also allows you to measure the amp’s power output from each pairing of tubes.

In my opinion, this is the only real method to accomplish “matching”, although it is not strictly a “tube-matching” issue and therefore beyond the scope of what most end-users want to tackle. It is holistic health care for your amp. You are evaluating all aspects of the amp simultaneously and how they interrelate to each other. You are tweaking the entire amp (including the tubes) to achieve the cleanest output. You are tweaking the bias. You are tweaking the “AC balance” / “phase inverter”. You are swapping/mixing output tubes. You have objective scientific evidence (the distortion numbers) to prove how your amp is working. When you can’t get the amp any cleaner at the same power output level, you know that the amp is optimal within its design limitations. This requires a lot of experience as a technician and quality test gear.

Honestly, this is the “right” way in my opinion and anything else is a serious compromise. But since this would require everyone to become a technician, folks are looking for an “easier” or “simpler” way to match tubes.

You can read the entire text here.

http://tubesound.com/2010/10/27/tube-matching-with-a-tube-tester/


----------



## belgiangenius

dminches said:


> Most people don't have the equipment to test if tubes are matched. Sellers will compare the tube structure and the mutual conductance but people who really understand this will say that is just a fair guide.
> 
> According to Bob Putnak, at tubesound.com who is one of the gurus...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sounds like tube matching, as offered by most tube sources, is just a gong show then.
  
 But, realistically, even if your tubes are severely mismatched and you end up with a 1-2 dB difference from right to left channels, that will be hard to notice, no?


----------



## desik

Hi guys,
 Considering to get a Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z.
  
 Are the tubes sold by http://psvanetube.com any different from those from ebay or other stores?
 They say they only sell "select" grade tubes. Anyone got them from ebay and happy? Price diff is quite big.


----------



## Scutey

desik said:


> Hi guys,
> Considering to get a Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z.
> 
> Are the tubes sold by http://psvanetube.com any different from those from ebay or other stores?
> They say they only sell "select" grade tubes. Anyone got them from ebay and happy? Price diff is quite big.


 

 ​Not sure if this is any help but I bought a matched pair Psvane uk-6sn7 from Amazon.co.uk and am very happy with them. It worked out cheaper because I would have had to pay customs.


----------



## gulakpi

I have a pair of the PSVANE CV181-UK.  I have to say I enjoy the sound much, as well as the coke-bottle look!  
 I have no idea about the differences between the CV181-Z and teh CV181-UK though, except the CV181-UK is clear glass.


----------



## Scutey

gulakpi said:


> I have a pair of the PSVANE CV181-UK.  I have to say I enjoy the sound much, as well as the coke-bottle look!
> I have no idea about the differences between the CV181-Z and teh CV181-UK though, except the CV181-UK is clear glass.


 

 ​I don't myself know the difference, but the UK has a nice warm presentation, oh and the coke bottle look!


----------



## bmanone

scutey said:


> ​Not sure if this is any help but I bought a matched pair Psvane uk-6sn7 from Amazon.co.uk and am very happy with them. It worked out cheaper because I would have had to pay customs.


 

 Did Psvane uk-6sn7 fit in the Freya without a tube saver?


----------



## Scutey

bmanone said:


> Did Psvane uk-6sn7 fit in the Freya without a tube saver?


 

 My Psvane are for a LD MK3, which needs 6sn7 to ecc88 adapters.


----------



## Mechans1

desik said:


> Hi guys,
> Considering to get a Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z.
> 
> Are the tubes sold by http://psvanetube.com any different from those from ebay or other stores?
> They say they only sell "select" grade tubes. Anyone got them from ebay and happy? Price diff is quite big.


 

 Yes Grant Fidelity is a genuine importer distributor and retail vendor.  They are reliable and will only sell you the real thing. Most of the people who buy from them are happy with their tubes but I don't know about the grading or selection process..  I don't know of any other seller of Psvane or Treasures on Ebay  with those credentials.  I understand a lot of  ? counterfeit  and poor tubes are being sold on Ebay so you are right to be concerned. 
 I have no  relationship with Grant Fidelity whatsoever.


----------



## Makiah S

Just got the Project Ember for my self, after selling my Starlight last year. I'm going to try out the Electro Harmonix 6SN7, adhoc's thread seemed to like it so I'll see how it works!


----------



## rhgg2 (May 5, 2017)

I ordered these tubes the other day in a spirit of scientific enquiry; I don't have them yet. They are labelled Fivre but look an awful lot like Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Does anyone know what they actually are?


----------



## gibosi

They certainly look like Sylvania. But I don't know if anyone knows for sure...  In the end, your ears may be the best judge: If they sound like Sylvania, then they are Sylvania.


----------



## rhgg2

Indeed, thanks! There are at least a couple of other Italian websites I found selling the same looking tube so I think they are certainly legit. I will be interested to find out if they are rebrands or if Fivre somehow acquired toolings from Sylvania (they are identical to the Syl triangle plates down to the three-and-two rivet holes on the back of the plates)


----------



## gug42 (May 5, 2017)

Hello,

I will shortly be able  to join the 6sn7 community !
So well, to not be "killed at view", can you point me some good money value tubes please ?

Thank you !


----------



## Makiah S

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I will shortly be able  to join the 6sn7 community !
> So well, to not be "killed at view", can you point me some good money value tubes please ?
> ...



I'm actually going to compare the New Production Electro Harmonix 6sn7 EH and EH Gold, my amp arrived and I'm letting her warm up


----------



## Makiah S




----------



## TUBEBO

Hitachi 6SN7GTB question:

I just won on auction 3 NIB Hitachi 6SN7GTB black plates ( re-branded as Tel-Rad ). These are the bottom square getter ones vs the more common top getter ITT  branded Hitachi version.  Lots of posts here on the Hitachi's, but often it's not clear as to which of these types are being discussed ( when of course there are no photos included ). If anyone has this Hitachi version , I would love to hear your take on these.  I will post mine when they arrive.

Also, the date code is 8-8 as stated by the seller.  From what I can ascertain from looking at a ton of info on the web, I think these are of earlier manufacture vs the top getter's and would likely be of 1958 manufacture? 

   Here is the photo from the listing.


----------



## gug42

Mshenay said:


> I'm actually going to compare the New Production Electro Harmonix 6sn7 EH and EH Gold, my amp arrived and I'm letting her warm up



Really curious about your impression !  What is your amp  ?


----------



## Makiah S

gug42 said:


> Really curious about your impression !  What is your amp  ?


Well it appears side ways, but I'm running a Project Ember II from Garage 1217, and thus far I'm really impressed with the non gold 6SN7 EH, compared to the SE out on my old PB2 [rip] the 6sn7EH in the Ember, has a much richer tone, well controlled bass, good clean mids, good sound stage but I lose just a little bit of micro detail


----------



## gug42

Thank you !

Another question, about the sister 6SL7GT : Is there any SQ, for a tung sol 6SL7GT round plate, between a black base and a brown base ?


----------



## gibosi

In my opinion, the base has absolutely no affect on the SQ. After all, it is relatively simple to replace the base. Only the bottle and its contents matter.


----------



## gug42

Ok thank you


----------



## Makiah S

My three Sylvania 6sn7 GT's have arrived! I'm going to pick up the 9.99 one tonight, and I'll get impressions and pictures to you guys shortly!


----------



## gug42 (May 30, 2017)

Did you know if Raytheon Blackplate wit the ladder style plates, are sonically the same betwee the variant 6SN7GT*A* and 6SN7GT*B ? 
*
And is there some people who prefer psvane CV-181-TII or Shuguang Treasure CV-181-Z against good old NOS (TS, Sylvania, and so ) ?


----------



## Makiah S

gug42 said:


> Did you know if Raytheon Blackplate wit the ladder style plates, are sonically the same betwee the variant 6SN7GT*A* and 6SN7GT*B ?
> *
> And is there some people who prefer psvane CV-181-TII or CV-181-Z against good old NOS (TS, Sylvania, and so ) ?


 I've not heard the Raytheon Variants, but the 6SN7 GTA GE and Sylvania's are audibly better than the B variants 

Also I forgot to mention! I Compared a number of the Sylvania 6sn7s

Going in the tube direction, I got my self 3 Sylvania 6sn7s, a 6sn7 GTA Chrome Dome, a run of the mill 6sn7 GT and a Jan-Chs 6sn7w. 

Of the three, the GTA had a very fun sound, little emphasis on the mids and fun bass, resolved deatiails really well, but lacked the 3D placement on the basic 6sn7 GT 
The Basic 6sn7 GT, black base, green label, had a good sound stage, but was noisy. Cost me less than my NOS Electro Harmonnix 6sn7s and was on par with them, sound stage was a tad better, but with the noise it's hard to say

Out of the three, the 6sn7W Jan-Chs, really impressed me, it was a short bottle Chrom Dome like the 6sn7 GTA, but a lot less fun. Bass had more focus, almost "bass light" mids have the same sweetness, but not as forward as the 6sn7 GTA, imaging was on par with the basic 6sn7 GT but with MUCH less noise overall and there for better detail overall! 







Pics of the two 6sn7 Chrome Domes, on the right the GTA, on the left the JAN-CHS 






The basic 6sn7 GT, what isn't pictured is my little Tin Foil contraption, I found it helped cut down SOME of the noise, 


So I got my next batch of Testers in, I've only listened to the Black Label VT 231 Sylvania 6SN7 GT so far, I accidentally bought two of them one JAN CHS and one Not, what I thought was a green label JAN CHS was in fact a white, oh well.

But thus far, the Black Label Tall Bottle Front facing Bottom Getter Flash'd VT 231 has a very simmilar tone and sound stage as my 6sn7W jan-chs, but it lacks the mirco detail of the 6sn7W. For $40 it wasn't a bad buy, not as fun as the 6sn7 GTA Chrome Dome [$38], but it had a more balanced tone than the Chrome Dome did,

Here's the 6sn7 GT Black Label Tall Bottle, Bottom Gett Flash'd Sylvania






I still prefer my 6sn7W jan-Chs green label Chrome dome short bottle, Though I do have a White Label 6sn7 GT Jan-CHS vt231 1944 dated [even had an ORIGINAL box... half falling apart but still very cool] and a Green Label Variant of the Same tube in bound to me. I'll let you guys know what I think of them soon!

Also I've been using the Elear to test and compare these tubes,


----------



## gug42

Thank you for thoses informations. Get it for Sylvania. 
But I'm not sure than something in a brand can be applied to an another brand ... so GTA and GTB from Raytheon can be equal or not ...
By the way the sylvania GTA chrome dome  are  on my wish list.

And well I have quickly edit my previous post : "And is there some people who prefer psvane CV-181-TII or Shuguang Treasure CV-181-Z against good old NOS (TS, Sylvania, and so ) ?" 

Regards,


----------



## Makiah S

gug42 said:


> Thank you for thoses informations. Get it for Sylvania.
> But I'm not sure than something in a brand can be applied to an another brand ... so GTA and GTB from Raytheon can be equal or not ...
> By the way the sylvania GTA chrome dome  are  on my wish list.
> 
> ...



your right, the GTA and GTB differ from brand to brand, I found similarities in the Sylvania and GE GTA/GTBs, it may be that in general GTBs are brighter and for a thicker warmer tube a Brighter variant may be ideal! You'll really have to experiment, or wait for some one whose collecting Raytheons like I am Sylvania's


----------



## Makiah S (Jun 11, 2017)

Fun story, turns out the seller didn't actually have it and sent me the wrong tube all together... so that problem solved it self

better news 

Doing my first listen finally with my White Label Sylvania 6sn7GT Jan-Chs VT 231, I can kinda see where people complain about these lacking bass, it also lacks some... hurrah in percussion like I'm used to with my 6sn7W

The tactility though is impressive the micro dynamics are cleaner and faster. Pulls detail out a little bit better,

Well the gain is higher on my 6sn7W, not by much... and it is a little bassier for sure. But it's a shame to say the 6sn7GT Vt231 Jan-Chs does have better overall detail, less bass but also faster transients >.> which sucks cuz it was CHEAPER than my 6sn7W AND had it's original box!!!!! Oh well, I'm still very curious how the Green Label VT-231 Jan-CHS 6sn7 GT sounds vs the White Label.

The moral of the story here is the price'r options is not always the subjectively better sounding one. Still though, if you want a funner tube the 6sn7W is great, it's like a SUPER DUPER 6sn7GTA still I'm liking this white label variant more my self


----------



## gibosi

A pair of 33S30B just went for 2,475 US Dollars....

Boy, someone has some very deep pockets!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/matched-pai...-in-Sweden-as-33S30B-ultra-rare-/182671411570


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> A pair of 33S30B just went for 2,475 US Dollars....
> 
> Boy, someone has some very deep pockets!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/matched-pai...-in-Sweden-as-33S30B-ultra-rare-/182671411570


Do you have one of these?


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> A pair of 33S30B just went for 2,475 US Dollars....
> 
> Boy, someone has some very deep pockets!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/matched-pai...-in-Sweden-as-33S30B-ultra-rare-/182671411570






GULP


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> Do you have one of these?



I wish! lol


----------



## attmci (Jul 26, 2017)

gibosi said:


> I wish! lol


The tube has very unique structure.
The price is similar to those sold a couple years ago.
Obtained some much cheaper Fivre and a eccxx recently and love the sound.


----------



## Makiah S

attmci said:


> *The tube has very unique structure*.
> The price is similar to those sold a couple years ago.
> Obtained some much cheaper Fivre and a eccxx recently and love the sound.



I Noticed that too, I wonder what lead them to that structure?


----------



## gibosi

Mshenay said:


> I Noticed that too, I wonder what lead them to that structure?



I believe that 33S30B is simply the Swedish military number for a 5692. And like all 5692s, it was designed to withstand considerable shock and vibration.


----------



## chef8489

Using a 1958 FOTON 6N8S [600mA] XII-58 with a 6SN7/6DJ8 adapter. It counts right?


----------



## gug42

gibosi said:


> I believe that 33S30B is simply the Swedish military number for a 5692. And like all 5692s, it was designed to withstand considerable shock and vibration.



Clearly, the plate stuff, the tripple mica and addded support => military stuff, 10 000hours, vibration and shock. The tube look like the Red Base 5691.


----------



## Makiah S

chef8489 said:


> Using a 1958 FOTON 6N8S [600mA] XII-58 with a 6SN7/6DJ8 adapter. It counts right?



How's it sound? Price on those is pretty low $25 for a pair shipped


----------



## chef8489

Mshenay said:


> How's it sound? Price on those is pretty low $25 for a pair shipped


Sounds pretty good. I am really enjoying it with my hd650 right now. Compared to the 1957 Sylvania gtb 6s27, it has deeper more impact-full bass and more forward mids where the 57 gtb has better more detailed highs and bit more separation.


----------



## rnros (Jul 26, 2017)

gibosi said:


> I believe that 33S30B is simply the Swedish military number for a 5692. And like all 5692s, it was designed to withstand considerable shock and vibration.



Here is what appears to be the same construction, also made in Sweden by Standard Radio (1969), and labeled Telefunken 6SN7WGTA. 378 Euro.

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/produc...products_id=1556&mySID=bskOmIhB69Hp5,hcK3EgN0


----------



## gibosi

I have read that some of the later 33S30Bs were in fact, relabeled American 5692s, so closely examining and comparing construction details might be a very good idea....


----------



## attmci

gug42 said:


> Clearly, the plate stuff, the tripple mica and addded support => military stuff, 10 000hours, vibration and shock. The tube look like the Red Base 5691.


http://m.ebay.com/itm/STANDARD-33S3...3D182671411570&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460

LOL


----------



## Makiah S

attmci said:


> http://m.ebay.com/itm/STANDARD-33S30B-Ultara-Rare-6SN7-RCA-5692-1Pair-/192257817783?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150519202348%26meid%3D96434d84a1ff4c1a812f06952e84fe84%26pid%3D100408%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D24%26sd%3D182671411570&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460
> 
> LOL



What a joke, they aren't even matched that strongly imo

Tube1 8.5mA 2600/9.1mA 2800
Tube2 8.6mA 2600/8.3mA 2500

I've got a 1944 Sylvania 6sn7 GT that's a solid 2800/2800 at least according to the buyer I got it from, it's sounded better than everything else I've tried... an I even splurged on a green label variant of the same tube... with poor'er matching and it wasn't as impressive sadly


----------



## Johnnysound (Jul 29, 2017)

gibosi said:


> I have read that some of the later 33S30Bs were in fact, relabeled American 5692s, so closely examining and comparing construction details might be a very good idea....


----------



## pctazhp

Johnnysound said:


> Returning to this nice and instructive thread because I am currently waiting (very patiently) to receive my new FA Euforia amp.  And quite frankly,  one of the main reasons why I choose this one is because it is designed specifically for 6SN7s , driving 6AS7Gs as powers.    My  first experience with 6SN7s was years ago with my trusty LD III,  (as suggested in the old but outstanding LD thread),   in an odd position as power tubes,  replacing the truly excellent sounding 6n6p russian tubes.


I started my OTL adventure with LDIV-SE, running C3S drivers. Moved up to Elise and now have had Euforia for several months. I absolutely love it. Hope you will feel the same


----------



## gibosi

Johnnysound said:


> Hi Gibosi, good to talk again after quite a while...........
> 
> As a side note,   I discovered only recently that the 6n6p family is a 100 % original  russian design,  with no western equivalent,  but it is pin compatible with E88CCs,  and via a proper adapter,  it may be used in a 6SN7G driver position,    some said with great results...any experiences ? ..............
> 
> BTW,  couldn't resist a fair offer of some 11 NOS or very strong testing 7N7,  at around 5 bucks each.  Many old tall bottles.  Will post some pics when received.



Hello Johnnysound. It's good to see you too. 

And yes, I have run a 6N6P-type tube, a 6N30P-DR to be exact, in a 6SN7 socket, and it works fine and sounds great. However, the heaters in these Russian tubes draw around 0.8A, which is a bit more than the 6SN7's 0.6A. Since it seems that many, if not most, 6SN7-based amps can provide about 1.0A, in order to accommodate the ECC32, this is likely not a problem. But still, it would be best to double-check with the manufacturer before trying.

Also, the vast majority of 7N7 were manufactured by Sylvania. But once in a while, you might come across one manufactured by National Union. The NU 7N7 have tall bottles, the gray glass extends considerably higher than the Sylvanias, and through the gap between the gray glass and the base, round plates, similar to the NU 6F8G, can be seen. A very nice tube, IMO.

Cheers

Below, Sylvania on the left and NU on the right


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> Hello Johnnysound. It's good to see you too.
> 
> And yes, I have run a 6N6P-type tube, a 6N30P-DR to be exact, in a 6SN7 socket, and it works fine and sounds great. However, the heaters in these Russian tubes draw around 0.8A, which is a bit more than the 6SN7's 0.6A. Since it seems that many, if not most, 6SN7-based amps can provide about 1.0A, in order to accommodate the ECC32, this is likely not a problem. But still, it would be best to double-check with the manufacturer before trying.
> 
> ...



These are "rare" 7N7. The most popular Syl are OK tubes and worth just about $5-7. Just my 2c.


----------



## chef8489

Today listening to a 57 Sylvania 6SN7GTB. I need more 6sn7 type tubes as I only have 2.


----------



## Makiah S

My favorites are the Sylvania 6sn7GTW Green Label Short Bottle Chrome Dome'd ones, which are a lot of fun! The ones with the most clarity are the Sylvania 6sn7 GT 1944 White Label, tall bottle with a Bottom Getter flash


----------



## attmci

chef8489 said:


> Today listening to a 57 Sylvania 6SN7GTB. I need more 6sn7 type tubes as I only have 2.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coppia-valv...828421?hash=item3ae946b545:g:BYMAAOSwYlRZL8n8

These are good.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> I believe that 33S30B is simply the Swedish military number for a 5692.


I think 33S30B is the manufacturer's type code. The Swedish military type code would be M2463-252 (possibly with some additional digits).

Swedish military tube designations


----------



## rosgr63

Skylab said:


> Quote:
> 
> I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that I actually try to FIND amps that use the 6SN7, precisely BECAUSE I have a large stash of them already and I want to use them




6SN7's are not that bad, so many different makes/types to try.


----------



## attmci

Mshenay said:


> What a joke, they aren't even matched that strongly imo
> 
> Tube1 8.5mA 2600/9.1mA 2800
> Tube2 8.6mA 2600/8.3mA 2500
> ...


Sold.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/STANDARD-33...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## Makiah S

attmci said:


> Sold.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/STANDARD-33S30B-Ultara-Rare-6SN7-RCA-5692-1Pair-/192260937615?nma=true&si=TZzXlEbMoV3WXMFYIGv%2BklnztWU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



Oh jeeze, well for tube collectors that's not to shabby... I also have to admit I betrayed the 6SN7 club... I got a APPJ PA 1502 so I now have a small collection of 12SN7's :[


----------



## attmci

Mshenay said:


> Oh jeeze, well for tube collectors that's not to shabby... I also have to admit I betrayed the 6SN7 club... I got a APPJ PA 1502 so I now have a small collection of 12SN7's :[


Nice. Now you can get TS RPBG for half the price that of the 6SN7. See if you can find some fivre 12sn7, and let us know if you like it.


----------



## Makiah S

attmci said:


> Nice. Now you can get TS RPBG for half the price that of the 6SN7. See if you can find some fivre 12sn7, and let us know if you like it.



You know that was the first 12SN7 I got... a Tung Sol Rectangle Plate Black Glass, it was like $18ish dollars. 12sn7's are soooo cheap! It's wonderful! I also couldn't resist buying a 12sn7 Jan-Chs vt289... neither or the 12SN7s are matched as closely as my preferred 6sn7, but they aren't TOO drastically off, 750/725 and 1000/1100 respectively... so we will see!


----------



## attmci (Sep 1, 2017)

Mshenay said:


> You know that was the first 12SN7 I got... a Tung Sol Rectangle Plate Black Glass, it was like $18ish dollars. 12sn7's are soooo cheap! It's wonderful! I also couldn't resist buying a 12sn7 Jan-Chs vt289... _neither or the 12SN7s are matched as closely as my preferred 6sn7_, but they aren't TOO drastically off, 750/725 and 1000/1100 respectively... so we will see!


Thanks for the info.

Another crazy guy from Italy. These tubes are good, but not that good. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-GTA-FI...004294?hash=item2cc4b8c486:g:FscAAOSw7H1Zk~Tc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-FIVRE-...011938?hash=item2cc4b8e262:g:R7AAAOSw3FNZk~f7


----------



## Rob N

B65 on EBay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253120627234


----------



## Jozurr

Mshenay said:


> Oh jeeze, well for tube collectors that's not to shabby... I also have to admit I betrayed the 6SN7 club... I got a APPJ PA 1502 so I now have a small collection of 12SN7's :[



What 12SN7s do you have? I use 12SN7 in my Liquid Glass and theyre terrific!



attmci said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Another crazy guy from Italy. These tubes are good, but not that good.
> 
> ...



Why do you think they are not good? Because of the price Im assuming?



attmci said:


> Nice. Now you can get TS RPBG for half the price that of the 6SN7. See if you can find some fivre 12sn7, and let us know if you like it.



the TS BGRP 12SN7 are my favourite tubes of all time no comparison. I've been trying to find some decent fivres but no luck.


----------



## attmci

Jozurr said:


> What 12SN7s do you have? I use 12SN7 in my Liquid Glass and theyre terrific!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ECC33 and Fivres are my favorite 6SN7 tubes.


----------



## Jozurr

attmci said:


> ECC33 and Fivres are my favorite 6SN7 tubes.



The fivre 6sn7 seem to be too expensive. Have never tried the ECC33, but I liked my TS BGRP better than the Mullard ECC32


----------



## Luckbad

Is this considered pornography in this thread?




 

Eddie Current Super 7 (7x 6SN7s in one amp)

Apologies for the temporary use of new production tubes. Please don't ban me.


----------



## Jozurr

What 6SN7 are considered to be the most transparent? (with least coloration)


----------



## Makiah S

Luckbad said:


> Is this considered pornography in this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know good and darn well it is!!!!! 



Jozurr said:


> What 6SN7 are considered to be the most transparent? (with least coloration)



That's a loaded question, but I prefer the 1944 JAN-CHS VT231 White Label Bottom Getter Sylvania 6sn7 Tall Bottle, though what I consider a lack of coloration other's consider as color, 

They say these tubes are REALLY BRIGHT and bass lite... I've found them to be... very resolving and having a preserve a lot of energy up top while still adding a little of that tubey sweetness, to put it this way I prefer... almost everything I own with my Ember II and one of those bad bois over my balanced solid State NFB10ES2, the only thing I use with my NFB10ES2 any more these days is my AKG K240 Sextett, and that's only because it needs gobs of power to have some solidity in the low end... other wise it's my Hybrid Tube of choice and a 1944 White Label Sylvania!


----------



## Jozurr

I havent tried them so might give them a shot if I can find a cheap pair. Thanks for the recommendation!


----------



## Scutey

Mshenay said:


> You know good and darn well it is!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the very reasons you mentioned I have just ordered a VT-231 Syl to use in my DV, looking forward to giving it a try, also managed to get it for a decent price too, £19 with postage. Not so easy to get hold of here in the UK.


----------



## Makiah S

Scutey said:


> For the very reasons you mentioned I have just ordered a VT-231 Syl to use in my DV, looking forward to giving it a try, also managed to get it for a decent price too, £19 with postage. Not so easy to get hold of here in the UK.



Here's some fun, I'm going to try a Psvane CV181-T Mark II if I can get it. Offered the guy $98+shipping so it'll be the second costliest 6sn7 I have. Sadly, I have the Green Label 1950's version of my precious white label Sylvania that did cost me around $100+shipping and it sounds... more different than anything... only keeping it because it took me 2 months to find a single one that wasn't priced crazily


----------



## Scutey

Mshenay said:


> Here's some fun, I'm going to try a Psvane CV181-T Mark II if I can get it. Offered the guy $98+shipping so it'll be the second costliest 6sn7 I have. Sadly, I have the Green Label 1950's version of my precious white label Sylvania that did cost me around $100+shipping and it sounds... more different than anything... only keeping it because it took me 2 months to find a single one that wasn't priced crazily


Sounds like a good price for those T Mark II. Prices, especially for well known brands of NOS only seem to be going up, but as in your case patience usually pays off!.


----------



## ra990

I have northern electric 6SN7 that I purchased from the tube store for the Saga, but then ended up returning the Saga in a couple weeks. If anyone wants the tube, let me know. I'm going to lose a lot if I return it, so would rather just sell it to a head-fier for cheap.


----------



## Makiah S

Scutey said:


> Sounds like a good price for those T Mark II. Prices, especially for well known brands of NOS only seem to be going up, but as in your case patience usually pays off!.



Well I picked up a Psvanne MK II... it'll be here in about 2 weeks. I have a show on the 15th and it's set to be delivered on that day at the earliest! So I guess the show is where I'll hear it first lol! Here's to hoping it sounds every bit as good as ppl say. Certainly looks lovely

I paid about $100 for it, I've seen pairs for around $100 each and I might have been able to be more aggressive with my offer! Oh well, here's to hoping it really is a worth competitor to my perfectly matched NOS Sylvania 1940's White Label


----------



## Makiah S

Just a quick reminder guys don't forget to clean your tube contacts every now and again, just a itty bit of this stuff goes a long way imo

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DeoxIT-D-a...319169&hash=item418887b81a:g:NFEAAOSw8lBTonep


----------



## Scutey

Mshenay said:


> Well I picked up a Psvanne MK II... it'll be here in about 2 weeks. I have a show on the 15th and it's set to be delivered on that day at the earliest! So I guess the show is where I'll hear it first lol! Here's to hoping it sounds every bit as good as ppl say. Certainly looks lovely
> 
> I paid about $100 for it, I've seen pairs for around $100 each and I might have been able to be more aggressive with my offer! Oh well, here's to hoping it really is a worth competitor to my perfectly matched NOS Sylvania 1940's White Label


You never know you might be lucky and get them a day or two early!.

Although I've never used the Psvane MKII I have the Shuguang Treasure, which I believe are similar and they are a very nice tube.

Good luck with your show!.


----------



## Makiah S

Scutey said:


> You never know you might be lucky and get them a day or two early!.
> 
> Although I've never used the Psvane MKII I have the Shuguang Treasure, which I believe are similar and they are a very nice tube.
> 
> Good luck with your show!.



here's to hoping! What do you love about your Treasure


----------



## Scutey

Mshenay said:


> here's to hoping! What do you love about your Treasure


Well I haven't used them for about 2/3 months as I've bought a pile of tubes and have been steadily going through them, so off hand it's difficult to remember so i'll put them in my Elise this evening and give them a listen!.


----------



## Scutey

Mshenay, just giving the Treasures a workout in my Elise, forgotten how good they sound, Warm  and relaxed, spacious, good soundstage, detailed too, better suited to less aggressive/energetic music, good with jazz, classical, folk, some rock. What's more I picked them up only lightly used for less than the price of one new!.


----------



## Makiah S

Scutey said:


> Mshenay, just giving the Treasures a workout in my Elise, forgotten how good they sound, Warm  and relaxed, spacious, good soundstage, detailed too, better suited to less aggressive/energetic music, good with jazz, classical, folk, some rock. What's more I picked them up only lightly used for less than the price of one new!.



Nice, I'm not sure what I'll do with mine if it sounds the same, spacious I like! But relaxed not so much... though I imagine I'll have a Saga here soon as a pre to a solid State, in that case I'd certainly want a more relaxed sounding tube with a TON of space... either way we will see! I'm very seriously going to be upgrading my headphones to silver here soon so I may enjoy the more relaxed sound with the added clarity of silver cables


----------



## Scutey

Nice, I have to say also that the powers i'm using at the mo are also warm sounding so that is definitely making them sound a bit more relaxed.


----------



## Scutey

Another thing, I would be interested what you think of the Psvane MKII when you finally get them as I may be tempted to give some a go.


----------



## Makiah S

Scutey said:


> Another thing, I would be interested what you think of the Psvane MKII when you finally get them as I may be tempted to give some a go.



I'll let you know for sure! i HEARD a set in a Feliks... Elise? Maybe, which the lower priced amp was for last year, either way it as impressive! So much so I went after one for my Ember II


----------



## Scutey

Thanks!, my main amp is the Elise so sounds promising.


----------



## thatonenoob

I'm collecting a crap ton of tubes.  Too many for my own health as of late. 

RCA 6080s, Sylvania coinbase rebrands, fotons, and soon thomsons!  Incredibly excited for the Thomson 6080.


----------



## Scutey

thatonenoob said:


> I'm collecting a crap ton of tubes.  Too many for my own health as of late.
> 
> RCA 6080s, Sylvania coinbase rebrands, fotons, and soon thomsons!  Incredibly excited for the Thomson 6080.


You're not the only one! lol, not tried the Thomson but keep meaning to as their cheap, I will one day!.


----------



## thatonenoob

For sure, the Thomsons reputation precedes itself.  Tho some uk sources have almost run out of them.  So if you want to u should get on it.


----------



## Scutey

thatonenoob said:


> For sure, the Thomsons reputation precedes itself.  Tho some uk sources have almost run out of them.  So if you want to u should get on it.


I have found a UK seller so yes, best to get some before they disappear, "he who hesitates is lost".


----------



## thatonenoob

@Scutey great to hear!  Valvetubes seems to still be stocking.   Look forward to hearing your thoughts on the 6080's.  What 6sn7 have your eye atm?


----------



## thatonenoob

Exactly what are these tubes....never heard of CEI before,


----------



## Scutey (Feb 8, 2018)

thatonenoob said:


> @Scutey great to hear!  Valvetubes seems to still be stocking.   Look forward to hearing your thoughts on the 6080's.  What 6sn7 have your eye atm?


@thatonenoob I have a few, in no particular order, Ken Rad VT231 6sn7gt, RCA GT grey glass, Sylvania VT231 GT and GTB and WGTA Tung Sol GTB (old stock) and new stock, Electro Harmonix, which is just a rebadged Tung Sol, Foton 53 Ribber plate 6n8s, and last but not least Shuguang Treasure CV 181-Z (not strictly a 6sn7). I've also have lots of non 6sn7 that I use with adapters in my Elise, I tend to roll my tubes every other day. What about yourself?.


----------



## Scutey

thatonenoob said:


> Exactly what are these tubes....never heard of CEI before,


I think CEI stands for Calvert Electronics Inc, seems a lot of there tubes were made at a Mullard factory in India, but I don't know if all there tubes were made by Mullard.


----------



## gibosi (Feb 8, 2018)

To my knowledge, CEI was not a manufacturer. They sourced tubes from various makers and distributed them under the CEI label. And yes, it does appear that for a while CEI had an agreement to resell Mullard tubes. However, while it is hard to clearly see the construction details in the picture above, to my eyes, that tube appears to be of Russian manufacture.

Edit: Oh, perhaps it was IEC (International Electric Co., London) that had an agreement to resell Mullard in the US...  CEI.... IEC... somewhat confusing... lol


----------



## Oskari

Scutey said:


> I think CEI stands for Calvert Electronics Inc, seems a lot of there tubes were made at a Mullard factory in India, but I don't know if all there tubes were made by Mullard.



Yes, CEI was Calvert. Philips did help set up BEL tube production in India but you can't really call it a Mullard factory.



gibosi said:


> To my knowledge, CEI was not a manufacturer. They sourced tubes from various makers and distributed them under the CEI label. And yes, it does appear that for a while CEI had an agreement to resell Mullard tubes. However, while it is hard to clearly see the construction details in the picture above, to my eyes, that tube appears to be of Russian manufacture.
> 
> Edit: Oh, perhaps it was IEC (International Electric Co., London) that had an agreement to resell Mullard in the US...  CEI.... IEC... somewhat confusing... lol



Yes, it was IEC that had the Mullard connection. This was a US company, though, International Electronics Corp.

A Russian source seems plausible for the CEI tube.

It's all very complicated… And then there was ICC…


----------



## attmci

thatonenoob said:


> Exactly what are these tubes....never heard of CEI before,



See the bottom getter? A Russian tube.


----------



## Scutey

Guys does anyone out there in Head-Fi land know of any UK, or Europe based sellers of the Shuguang Treasures CV-181-Z ?, I have found sellers for the Psvane CV-181-TMKII, but not the shuggies, all that I have found are either based in Hong Kong or China. Can anyone recommend a seller?.


----------



## purehifi192

Scutey said:


> Guys does anyone out there in Head-Fi land know of any UK, or Europe based sellers of the Shuguang Treasures CV-181-Z ?, I have found sellers for the Psvane CV-181-TMKII, but not the shuggies, all that I have found are either based in Hong Kong or China. Can anyone recommend a seller?.


Can you go through Grant Fidelity and have them ship to you?


----------



## Scutey

purehifi192 said:


> Can you go through Grant Fidelity and have them ship to you?


Yes I probably could, only problem is I would incur fairly substantial customs charges, I was hoping there might be somewhere in the UK or Europe that might sell them, the only place seem to be eBay. Thanks for your input!.


----------



## purehifi192

Scutey said:


> Yes I probably could, only problem is I would incur fairly substantial customs charges, I was hoping there might be somewhere in the UK or Europe that might sell them, the only place seem to be eBay. Thanks for your input!.


You sure?  From http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/psvane_tubes_about_us/ :
"*Please note that when you place an order on this website, your payment is made to Audio For Less Ltd (Hong Kong), a strategic partner of Grant Fidelity out of Hong Kong to provide worldwide order fulfillment.* This is necessary in order for tubes clearing customs for export from China. No sales tax is added at the time of purchase as orders shipped from Hong Kong will be taxed at the time of importation at destination country. Such taxes are usually collected at the time of delivery by the courier directly from buyers. Orders from Canadian buyers, if shipped from Grant Fidelity warehouse in Canada will be required to pay GST/HST before shipping. Read more about in’s and out’s of international customs brokerage."

At the dentist's office so not reading this clearly.


----------



## Scutey

purehifi192 said:


> You sure?  From http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/psvane_tubes_about_us/ :
> "*Please note that when you place an order on this website, your payment is made to Audio For Less Ltd (Hong Kong), a strategic partner of Grant Fidelity out of Hong Kong to provide worldwide order fulfillment.* This is necessary in order for tubes clearing customs for export from China. No sales tax is added at the time of purchase as orders shipped from Hong Kong will be taxed at the time of importation at destination country. Such taxes are usually collected at the time of delivery by the courier directly from buyers. Orders from Canadian buyers, if shipped from Grant Fidelity warehouse in Canada will be required to pay GST/HST before shipping. Read more about in’s and out’s of international customs brokerage."
> 
> At the dentist's office so not reading this clearly.


Thanks for the info @purehifi192 , I'll have a look into this.


----------



## Oskari

Scutey said:


> Guys does anyone out there in Head-Fi land know of any UK, or Europe based sellers of the Shuguang Treasures CV-181-Z ?, I have found sellers for the Psvane CV-181-TMKII, but not the shuggies, all that I have found are either based in Hong Kong or China. Can anyone recommend a seller?.


Have you asked these guys?

http://www.aa-acoustics.com


----------



## Scutey

Oskari said:


> Have you asked these guys?
> 
> http://www.aa-acoustics.com


That's brilliant, thanks Oskari, this may well be the one, I shall contact them tomorrow!.


----------



## Makiah S

MY PSvanne is in, warming it up with some TV atm, will chime in with specifics in a couple of days


----------



## Scutey

Mshenay said:


> MY PSvanne is in, warming it up with some TV atm, will chime in with specifics in a couple of days


Hi @Mshenay, good to hear you've got them, I'm torn between the Shuguangs and the Psvane, so will be interested to hear what you think of them, one more thing would you mind if I ask who you purchased them from?.


----------



## Makiah S

Scutey said:


> Hi @Mshenay, good to hear you've got them, I'm torn between the Shuguangs and the Psvane, so will be interested to hear what you think of them, one more thing would you mind if I ask who you purchased them from?.



eBay there's an official re-seller there and I don't have a Shugang sadly, just the Psvane


----------



## Scutey

Mshenay said:


> MY PSvanne is in, warming it up with some TV atm, will chime in with specifics in a couple of days


Hi, @Mshenay. How are you getting on with the PSvane's, have you come to any conclusions as to how they sound?.


----------



## Sound Eq (Mar 3, 2018)

hi everyone, i have the hifiman ef100 tube amp,

https://www.headfonia.com/review-hifiman-ef100-the-hybrid-amp/

can anyone recommend better tube amps than its stock, and if you can just write few words what each next level of tubes can provide

my prefered sound sig is warm, tight bass , wide soundstage, rich full vocals


----------



## gibosi

The hifiman ef100 is designed around the 2C51, also known as 6N3J, 6N3P, 396A and 5670, which is a miniature 9-pin all-glass tube. While it might be possible to use the 6SN7, it would definitely require a pin-adapter. And further, there might not be enough room for the larger 6SN7 to fit without modifications.

Possible upgrades to the stock 6N3J include Sylvania and Bendix.


----------



## Sound Eq

gibosi said:


> The hifiman ef100 is designed around the 2C51, also known as 6N3J, 6N3P, 396A and 5670, which is a miniature 9-pin all-glass tube. While it might be possible to use the 6SN7, it would definitely require a pin-adapter. And further, there might not be enough room for the larger 6SN7 to fit without modifications.
> 
> Possible upgrades to the stock 6N3J include Sylvania and Bendix.



can i ask would sylvania and bendix need and adaptor or would they fit as is

and what sound differences if any to stock would I expect


----------



## gibosi

First of all, the Sylvania and Bendix versions of the 6N3J do not need adapters. They are plug and play. Since these tubes were marketed under several different tube numbers I find it most useful to search separately for each number. For example, go to eBay and do several searches: "396A tube", "5670 tube", "2c51 tube". You will see Sylvania, Bendix and other brands.

My current amp uses 6SN7. In a previous amp I used to roll 2C51 tubes, but that was quite some time ago and I no longer remember much about their sound. I do remember that I favored the Sylvania and Bendix, but again, can't remember why....


----------



## ericr

Sound Eq said:


> can i ask would sylvania and bendix need and adaptor or would they fit as is
> 
> and *what sound differences if any to stock would I expect*



It's only a 4 page thread, but this may help:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/5670-w396a-2c51-6n3p-tube-thread.680910/


----------



## ericr

gibosi said:


> The hifiman ef100 is designed around the 2C51, also known as 6N3J, 6N3P, 396A and 5670, which is a miniature 9-pin all-glass tube. *While it might be possible to use the 6SN7, it would definitely require a pin-adapter. *And further, there might not be enough room for the larger 6SN7 to fit without modifications.
> 
> Possible upgrades to the stock 6N3J include Sylvania and Bendix.



Garage1217 makes some very nice amps and a few very high quality tube adapters as well.

One pin-converts so an 8-pin 6SN7 can be installed in place of the 9-pin 12AX7 and its many related tubes.

Another pin-converts so an 8-pin 6SN7 can be installed in place of the 9-pin 5670 / 2C51 / 396a and related tubes

NOTE: Check for compatablity with your amp manufacturer before using different tubes.  While adapters make them fit, they do not change the electrical properties of a tube.

http://garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_012.htm


----------



## rgmffn (Mar 4, 2018)

There was recent chatter in one of the threads around here about the Tung Sol 6sn7 GT Mouse Ears, so I thought I'd try one. I'm using a Project Ember ll and have two Sylvania 6sn7 GTB's, a Ken-Rad 6sn7 GT, and another Sylvania 6sn7 GT to compare to. One of the Sylvania GTB's is a standout and my favorite.

I found one on eBay that said 'New Listing' , whatever that means. It was reasonable so I grabbed it. It appears to have been a good decision. Comparing to my best Sylvania, it is cleaner sounding with better upper detail which gives the sensation of more air. Better midrange, vocals. The bass is not as strong but tighter. But that is easily remedied with the Schiit Loki. It also has a silent noise floor unlike the Sylvania that has slight noise on the left channel.

The tube of course was listed as a Tung Sol but there is nothing on it that I can detect what, exactly it is. I'm thinking maybe that the tube was funky and the vendor might have cleaned it up, removing any markings. Does that sound plausible?  The other thing is that it has a brown base. (It might be a little hard to tell in the pic)  I can't find any information on brown base Tong Sol 6sn7 GT Mouse Ears.

Is there a way to tell exactly what this is for sure?

Edit to add: It's a very dark brown on the base. Maybe that's not considered brown?


----------



## Scutey

Decide to take the plunge and have my biggest ever spend on tubes for a pair of Psvanes CV 181-T MKII, always a gamble as to whether you'll like them or not, this is a bigger gamble than most though!


----------



## TheSnafu

If i use tube adapter to use 6SN7 tubes instead of 6922's. What kind of change in sound can i except ? I have Copland CTA301 mkII (6922) pre amp. 
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/6sn7-to-6922-adapter

btw, can i use tubes like above CV 181-T MKII with this same adapter ? 

Thanks&cheers


----------



## canthearyou

These are my endgame tubes. They get better every day!


----------



## gibosi

TheSnafu said:


> If i use tube adapter to use 6SN7 tubes instead of 6922's. What kind of change in sound can i except ? I have Copland CTA301 mkII (6922) pre amp.
> https://www.tubedepot.com/products/6sn7-to-6922-adapter
> 
> btw, can i use tubes like above CV 181-T MKII with this same adapter ?
> ...



I know nothing about your amp...  But the 6SN7 heaters draw 0.6A whereas the 6922 heaters draw only 0.3A, twice as much, so be sure your amp can handle this. Otherwise, you could damage your amp.

And yes, if you can safely roll 6SN7, you can also roll the Psvanes CV 181, which is just a "pretty" 6SN7.


----------



## canthearyou

gibosi said:


> I know nothing about your amp...  But the 6SN7 heaters draw 0.6A whereas the 6922 heaters draw only 0.3A, twice as much, so be sure your amp can handle this. Otherwise, you could damage your amp.
> 
> And yes, if you can safely roll 6SN7, you can also roll the Psvanes CV 181, which is just a "pretty" 6SN7*.



*That sounds amazing.


----------



## gibosi

rgmffn said:


> There was recent chatter in one of the threads around here about the Tung Sol 6sn7 GT Mouse Ears, so I thought I'd try one. I'm using a Project Ember ll and have two Sylvania 6sn7 GTB's, a Ken-Rad 6sn7 GT, and another Sylvania 6sn7 GT to compare to. One of the Sylvania GTB's is a standout and my favorite.
> 
> I found one on eBay that said 'New Listing' , whatever that means. It was reasonable so I grabbed it. It appears to have been a good decision. Comparing to my best Sylvania, it is cleaner sounding with better upper detail which gives the sensation of more air. Better midrange, vocals. The bass is not as strong but tighter. But that is easily remedied with the Schiit Loki. It also has a silent noise floor unlike the Sylvania that has slight noise on the left channel.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately your pictures are too dark to see any detail...

First, the color of the base has no affect on the sound. It is what is inside the glass bottle that matters.

This Tung-Sol 6SN7GT is called "mouse ears" because of the unique round mica spacers. To my knowledge, no other 6SN7 has this structure. Later versions of this tube have "squared" ears, and even later versions, the ears disappeared. However, the plates remained the same, ribbed and gray.


----------



## gibosi

And a bit more about the Tung-Sol "mouse ears" 6SN7GT. Here is an engineering sample from 1949. I don't think this version was ever put into production.


----------



## Scutey

gibosi said:


> I know nothing about your amp...  But the 6SN7 heaters draw 0.6A whereas the 6922 heaters draw only 0.3A, twice as much, so be sure your amp can handle this. Otherwise, you could damage your amp.
> 
> And yes, if you can safely roll 6SN7, you can also roll the Psvanes CV 181, which is just a "pretty" 6SN7.


Great info!, gibosi!.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> These are my endgame tubes. They get better every day!


Good to hear you're enjoying them chy, if the reviews are correct  then I guess you still might have someway to go, enjoy the burn in, I'm hoping mine will arrive tomorrow and then I can begin the long road to audio nirvana! .


----------



## gibosi

canthearyou said:


> *That sounds amazing.



We all have different ears and different gear... 

It is important to understand that the "real" CV181, as manufactured by Mullard, is not the same as a 6SN7. It has a higher amplification factor, 32 compared to 20, and the heaters draw 0.95A. And again, not every amp designed to run 6SN7 can handle the higher heater current. But the Psvane product is not really a CV181. It is a merely a 6SN7 in an ST bottle. And I will leave it to others to debate its sonic characteristics.


----------



## gibosi

A Mullard CV181 from the mid to late 1940's.


----------



## TheSnafu

^^^ thanks for the adapter info, tubedepot said that it's safe to try this adapter&tube combo with 6922. 
i'm gonna order pair and see how it goes. 

while searching info i also found that 6SN7's can be used (with adapter) instead of 12AU7's.. and my power amp uses 12AU7's...  

cheers


----------



## davveswe

I am wondering if it safe to use a 6SN7(Top) TO 6J5(bottom) adapter? 
When using a 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter, you use two 6J5 tubes. 6SN7 has more gain?


----------



## gibosi

The 6J5 is one-half of a 6NS7. Gain (amplification factor) is the same, 20. 

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/6J5.pdf

https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2013/03/tube-of-month-6j5.html

But if I understand correctly, you would need an adapter with *one* 6SN7 on top and *two* 6J5 on the bottom. Do you have an amp with two 6J5 sockets?


----------



## ericr

davveswe said:


> I am wondering if it safe to use a 6SN7(Top) TO 6J5(bottom) adapter?
> When using a 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter, you use two 6J5 tubes. 6SN7 has more gain?


Check out the Ember Tube Rolling thread.  Several Project Ember owners are doing this so you'll find info on adapters and favorite tubes.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Hey people - just started going through this thread a few days ago.  I am upgrading my Bottlehead Crack to a Crackatwoa, going to be doing some modding and decided to give the 6SN7's a go as my drivers.  Was hoping for some recommendations as far as quality 6SN7's that are around $75 or less in price.  So far, I picked up a Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W short bottle with black base and green text for $70 (not sure of the exact year, but presumably 1940's) and a 1953 Hytron 6SN7GT NIB for $30.

Some other tubes I am looking at are the RCA VT-231/6SN7GT gray glass from the 1940's (seems to run around $50) and the Ken Rad VT-231 black glass (seems to run around $75).  I know some of the Tung Sol's are highly regarded, but the round plates seem to be out of my price range.

How did I do on my first purchases, and are the RCA and Ken Rad good pick-ups as well?  Any other recommendations would be appreciated.  Cheers!

P.S.  Below are the two tubes I've purchased.  I also run the Western Electric 421A and Tung Sol 5998 as output tubes on the Crack.


----------



## Scutey

L0rdGwyn said:


> Hey people - just started going through this thread a few days ago.  I am upgrading my Bottlehead Crack to a Crackatwoa, going to be doing some modding and decided to give the 6SN7's a go as my drivers.  Was hoping for some recommendations as far as quality 6SN7's that are around $75 or less in price.  So far, I picked up a Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W short bottle with black base and green text for $70 (not sure of the exact year, but presumably 1940's) and a 1953 Hytron 6SN7GT NIB for $30.
> 
> Some other tubes I am looking at are the RCA VT-231/6SN7GT gray glass from the 1940's (seems to run around $50) and the Ken Rad VT-231 black glass (seems to run around $75).  I know some of the Tung Sol's are highly regarded, but the round plates seem to be out of my price range.
> 
> ...


Some nice tubes their @L0rdGwyn. My recommendation would be the  6N8S Foton, 52-55, Ribbed anode, strictly between those years, nothing after, they're cheap but rare, they offer a superb spacious, transparent, detailed and dynamic/punchy sound. I know Foton tubes have a patchy reputation but the 52-55 ribbed anode is a cracker, a genuine sleeper imo, if you are interested here is a link to where I bought mine.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-of-4...var=431877643099&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Scutey said:


> Some nice tubes their @L0rdGwyn. My recommendation would be the  6N8S Foton, 52-55, Ribbed anode, strictly between those years, nothing after, they're cheap but rare, they offer a superb spacious, transparent, detailed and dynamic/punchy sound. I know Foton tubes have a patchy reputation but the 52-55 ribbed anode is a cracker, a genuine sleeper imo, if you are interested here is a link to where I bought mine.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-of-4-pcs-6N8S-Audio-Triode-Tubes-6SN7GT-ECC32-6CC10-NOS-See-Variations/132525010141?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&var=431877643099&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649



Fantastic!  Thanks for the recommendation and the link, @Scutey .  I think I will pick up a set, four tubes for $30 USD, a little overkill HA but that's how it goes with the Russian tubes.

Just out of curiosity, how did you hear about the 6N8S from Foton being high-performing in such a narrow date range?


----------



## Scutey

Hi @L0rdGwyn,


L0rdGwyn said:


> Fantastic!  Thanks for the recommendation and the link, @Scutey .  I think I will pick up a set, four tubes for $30 USD, a little overkill HA but that's how it goes with the Russian tubes.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how did you hear about the 6N8S from Foton being high-performing in such a narrow date range?


Hi @L0rdGwyn,

That seller use to sell them in pairs until Christmas, I think he now sells them in quads because of postage costs.

About five months ago I bought a Feliks Elise tube amp and started reading and posting on the Elise  Head-Fi thread,  @mordy, one of the guys who regularly posts on that thread who is well respected for his views/reviews comments etc recommended them as being very good, so I bought a pair, and imo he was right, personally I haven't found a 6sn7 type that betters it.

As for the narrow date range, I think 52-55 is the years  that particular design was in production, and after that they changed the internals and hence a different, and to my ears an inferior sound, I have a pair of double triode Foton's from the following year, 56, and although they look near identical they certainly don't sound it, imo they lack the dynamic sound of the 52-55 ribber anode type.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Scutey said:


> Hi @L0rdGwyn,
> 
> Hi @L0rdGwyn,
> 
> ...



Awesome @Scutey !  Thanks for the tip and the info.  I ordered a quad set, I also asked the seller to send tubes from '54 or '55 if possible (could possibly send some from '56).  Once I get my amp built, I'll post some impressions against my other 6SN7's  much appreciated!


----------



## ericr

L0rdGwyn said:


> Hey people - just started going through this thread a few days ago.  I am upgrading my Bottlehead Crack to a Crackatwoa, going to be doing some modding and decided to give the 6SN7's a go as my drivers.  Was hoping for some recommendations as far as quality 6SN7's that are around $75 or less in price.  So far, I picked up a Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W short bottle with black base and green text for $70 (not sure of the exact year, but presumably 1940's) and a 1953 Hytron 6SN7GT NIB for $30.
> 
> Some other tubes I am looking at are the RCA VT-231/6SN7GT gray glass from the 1940's (seems to run around $50) and the Ken Rad VT-231 black glass (seems to run around $75).  I know some of the Tung Sol's are highly regarded, but the round plates seem to be out of my price range.
> 
> ...



Prediction: the 6SN7W  wins.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

ericr said:


> Prediction: the 6SN7W  wins.



Against he Hytron?  Or literally everything else?


----------



## Scutey

L0rdGwyn said:


> Awesome @Scutey !  Thanks for the tip and the info.  I ordered a quad set, I also asked the seller to send tubes from '54 or '55 if possible (could possibly send some from '56).  Once I get my amp built, I'll post some impressions against my other 6SN7's  much appreciated!


No problem!, hope you enjoy them!lol, this eBay seller is very accommodating, he recently sent me a quad of the 54 year.

I'll definitely be interested on your impressions of them!


----------



## Scutey

ericr said:


> Prediction: the 6SN7W  wins.


I'm not going to predict either way, as, of course, choosing, liking tubes is highly subjective, just my opinion!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Got my hands on a Ken Rad VT-231 with staggered plates, clear glass for $50 and a 1952 Foton 6N8S per Scutey's recommendation.  Gonna go with the four I've got for now, will post some impressions when they arrive and when my Crackatwoa is built (in like, a month LOL).


----------



## Wes S

I was the bid, you beat, if you won that last night.  Nice score!


----------



## Wes S

I found one for the same price, from another seller today.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Wes S said:


> I was the bid, you beat, if you won that last night.  Nice score!





Wes S said:


> I found one for the same price, from another seller today.



I'm sorry man!  I hate being that guy, but glad you found another for the same price!


----------



## Wes S

No worries!


----------



## TheSnafu

About socket savers, my pre amps sockets are so close to each other that larger tubes, (like ahem globes), don't fit. 
Anyone know if there are socket savers/something that allows bigger cap than original sockets.

thanks


----------



## Scutey

L0rdGwyn said:


> Got my hands on a Ken Rad VT-231 with staggered plates, clear glass for $50 and a 1952 Foton 6N8S per Scutey's recommendation.  Gonna go with the four I've got for now, will post some impressions when they arrive and when my Crackatwoa is built (in like, a month LOL).


Some nice acquisitions @L0rdGwyn, hope you enjoy em!


----------



## ericr (Mar 25, 2018)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Against he Hytron?  Or literally everything else?



Great question.

Over the Hytron, and the RCA & Ken-Rad VT-231s, mouse ears, as just discussed.

Haven't heard everything, but yes, over pretty much everything.  The Tung-Sol black round plate is close, but with a warm, bass boost tilt to it - and more expensive.

The 6SN7W black base short bottle are a great value.

Haven't yet tried a Foton, the rare European (B65, etc.), or the older single triode with a 2 into 1 adapter. 

Actually the early 2 hole Hytron was my favorite before the 6SN7W, it was just light on bass impact.

YMMV, as all of the above is using my gear and my ears.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

ericr said:


> Great question.
> 
> Over the Hytron, and the RCA & Ken-Rad VT-231s, mouse ears, as just discussed.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your thoughts, I'll keep that in mind.  I had a chance to listen to the Sylvania 6SN7W in my Crack for about 30 minutes before I sold and shipped it (the tube arrived just as I was packing the amp up).  I was impressed by the clarity and detail paired with the Western Electric 421A.  From what I've read, seems like 6SN7's can be picky about output tube pairing.  Really eager to pop it in the Crackatwoa and roll some output tubes


----------



## TheSnafu

Here is 6SN7 (top) to 6922 (bottom) adapters with TungSol 6SN7GTB's. Sounds pretty good, better than TAD 6922's. Tube s are awfully close and can't fit any fatter tubes there.


----------



## Scutey (Mar 30, 2018)

Picked up a pair of Psvane CV 181 TMK2 for my Feliks Elise a couple weeks ago and I have to say I'm quite impressed with them.

Sound wise I would say they are neutral with a hint of mid range warmth, transparent, well extended highs, detailed wide soundstage with very good depth and separation, bass is tight  and hard hitting, but could use just a tad more depth, otherwise an excellent sounding, new generation tube, biggest downside is the price and possibly life expectancy.


----------



## larcenasb (Mar 31, 2018)

Hi, I'm searching intensely for some info about date code interpretation of Ken-Rad tubes, hopefully one of you can help me.

I just acquired a couple beautiful Ken-Rad 6F8G round plate tubes.

The tube to the left marked "Ken-Rad" and "VT-99" has a date code of "P2R," and the tube to the right marked "WARDS SUPER AIRLINE" has a date code of "E9R."

Their constructions are identical except that the WARDS has copper tabs holding the plates (see color difference between the tubes). Possibly, I'd guess, that the copper version is of earlier manufacture--but I'm not sure and would really like to know for a fact. So, if anyone has a data sheet for Ken-Rad date codes, or can please tell me how to interpret them, I'd be deeeeeply appreciative. Thanks so much and happy listening!


----------



## gibosi

larcenasb said:


> Hi, I'm searching intensely for some info about date code interpretation of Ken-Rad tubes, hopefully one of you can help me.
> 
> I just acquired a couple beautiful Ken-Rad 6F8G round plate tubes.
> 
> ...



Early Ken-Rad date codes indicated the end of the warranty period rather than the date of production. So P2R indicates that the warranty period ended February, 1943. And E9R indicates a warranty period ending April, 1940. Warranties of one year were typical at this time, but I don't know about Ken-Rad. And further, it is certainly possible that a Ken-Rad labeled tube purchased from your local electronics shop might have a different warranty period than a replacement purchased from your local Wards dealer. So it can be difficult to know precisely when these older tubes were manufactured, but this gets you somewhat close....


----------



## larcenasb

Thank you, gibosi! But how are the letters and numbers interpreted? What's the code to see what letter/number represents what? Thanks again for your help and time.


----------



## gibosi

larcenasb said:


> Thank you, gibosi! But how are the letters and numbers interpreted? What's the code to see what letter/number represents what? Thanks again for your help and time.



I don't really have the "code". In Ludwell Sibley's book, "Tube Lore", page 177, a short table is presented regarding Ken-Rad date codes. And in order to answer your question, I attempted to infer a pattern and extend the table to include the codes indicated on your tubes.

Since "Tube Lore" is a copyrighted publication, and I haven't seen this information anywhere on the web, I am reluctant to be more specific...

However, I would encourage you to pick up a copy of this book. Lots of good information there that can't be found anywhere else.


----------



## larcenasb

Thanks for the info, but at $200 all the way up to $3000 for the book, maybe I'll get it once my life amounts to something.


----------



## gibosi

larcenasb said:


> Thanks for the info, but at $200 all the way up to $3000 for the book, maybe I'll get it once my life amounts to something.



That much? Wow! I picked up my copy on eBay last summer for $90...


----------



## larcenasb (Mar 31, 2018)

Haha, yeah, I'll keep an eye out to hopefully find a lower price!

In case anyone was wondering, the Ken-Rad round-plate 6F8Gs sound glorious! There is definitely a house sound with Ken-Rad, it's very similar to their 6SN7GT/VT-231 (black and clear glass both sounding the same, as most of you know). Compared to the RCA <1946 6F8G, the Ken-Rads sound cleaner, less bloat (which I love about the RCA for certain music types and classic films), and puts forth supremely resolving mids--if a singer's voice is raspy, you hear all the starts-and-stops in the voice with sharp clarity, whereas the RCA will smudge things and smooth it out a bit. As usual, bass performance is sublime: fast, punchy, deep, and a control to it that is atypical of the "tube" sound. Cheers and happy listening! 

EDIT: I should add more...

Transparency is really what I was hinting at when talking about Ken-Rad's mids--the feeling of being in front of the singers is more obvious with Ken-Rads (6F8G and 6SN7GT staggered-plates) than with any of my other tubes, including RCA, Raytheon, Sylvania, National Union, and even the coveted Tung-Sol round-plates (all <1946). The Tung-Sol has a very balanced and natural (many say beguiling or magical) sound that I think wins most people over, but Ken-Rad's upsides (bass and transparency) are definitely more striking, more in your face.

Highs are a bit subdued. For example, when there's a peak in the highs, especially with female vocals, the RCA and Raytheon (flat-plates) reach me and evokes a physiological reaction where I almost get goosebumps...the Ken-Rad sounds clear, clean and nice but don't force that physiological response. Obviously, that physical reaction makes the music more emotional, makes me literally connect with it, feel it...and not merely listen to it.

Those are just some quick impressions, thanks for reading and take care!


----------



## Wes S

Larcenasb - those are very good descriptions, of the differences I hear between my 40's ken rad and rca grey glass 6sn7gt's.  They both have a there own magic.


----------



## attmci (Apr 1, 2018)

larcenasb said:


> Haha, yeah, I'll keep an eye out to hopefully find a lower price!
> 
> In case anyone was wondering, the Ken-Rad round-plate 6F8Gs sound glorious! There is definitely a house sound with Ken-Rad, it's very similar to their 6SN7GT/VT-231 (black and clear glass both sounding the same, as most of you know). Compared to the RCA <1946 6F8G, the Ken-Rads sound cleaner, less bloat (which I love about the RCA for certain music types and classic films), and puts forth supremely resolving mids--if a singer's voice is raspy, you hear all the starts-and-stops in the voice with sharp clarity, whereas the RCA will smudge things and smooth it out a bit. As usual, bass performance is sublime: fast, punchy, deep, and a control to it that is atypical of the "tube" sound. Cheers and happy listening!
> 
> ...



In the earlier days, many tube manufacturer used these secret codes and made the date decoding very difficult.

I may have this tube somewhere, but the round plate version are rare.  I believe the only reason we use 6f8g is due to the price (cheaper than their 6sn7gt cousins).

However,  the adapters will usually increase the noise floor in many amps.


----------



## larcenasb

Thanks Wes S, I'm actually going to try and give impressions of my treasure box collection of some of the more sought-after tubes, hopefully you'll like that as well! I'll post it here by tonight.

Yeah, attmci, that's too bad about those sphinx-like tube manufacturers. At least RCA has clear date codes for their wartime tubes--I'm grateful for that. For me, the beautiful coke-bottle shape is another small reason I enjoy having a 6F8G in my amp.


----------



## larcenasb (Apr 3, 2018)

.


----------



## quimbo (Apr 2, 2018)

Hi.  New to the thread.  Picked up a Lyr 3 this weekend with a Tung-Sol 6NS7.      Listened for a few hours last night, much nicer than the LISST tube.   Amp is playing unattended while I am at work, looking froward if there is more difference tonight. Just ordered a 6SN7gt Ken-Rad Tube *Flat Black Plates*1950* and looking forward to hearing that


----------



## attmci (Apr 3, 2018)

quimbo said:


> Hi.  New to the thread.  Picked up a Lyr 3 this weekend with a Tung-Sol 6NS7.      Listened for a few hours last night, much nicer than the LISST tube.   Amp is playing unattended while I am at work, looking froward if there is more difference tonight. Just ordered a 6SN7gt Ken-Rad Tube *Flat Black Plates*1950* and looking forward to hearing that


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lyr-3-the-new-coherence™-and-continuity™-hybrid-amplifier-from-schiit-impression-discussion-thread.875185/

Pretty sure you had visited the threads because you are one of the first lyr-3 owners. Should have some great discussion soon.

Damn, why they changed to 6SN7... This will make 6SN7 more expensive.


----------



## Strat-Mangler

Hmmmm,.. nevermind. Just noticed my mistake.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hello all.  I am a recent Schiit Lyr 3 owner and possibly a contributor to the driving up of 6SN7 tube prices and for that I apologize.  You folks here seem like a friendly and knowledgeable lot, so I thought I would pose my tube question here.  I just purchased 2x Sylvania brown-base tubes, but don't really know a whole lot about them. A picture below and I'm hoping to get a tube identification and perhaps a sound profile.  I think they are early true Chrome Domes, but I really don't know.  It was an impulse buy and I'm steeling myself for the possibility it is a pair of junk tubes, but holding out that it might be a good buy.

Any input or thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!!


----------



## gibosi (Jul 5, 2018)

These appear to be Sylvania-made chrome domes from the mid-1950's. However, these were manufactured for the US military, note the "WGT". While I can't tell from the pictures, they likely have an extra vertical support rod between the top and bottom micas and metal "umbrella" spoke spacers attached to the top mica. So they are different than the earlier civilian chrome domes.

They are certainly not "junk tubes".


----------



## Ripper2860

Excellent.  Thank you for your quick response.  Do you have any thoughts as to how they sound or a sound profile?  Are these typically sought-after audio tubes or just vintage 'meh' tubes?

Again -- Thanks!!


----------



## gibosi

Many people quite like them. You can read some impressions here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## Ripper2860

Once again -- thanks!!!  Looks like I have some reading to do !!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2018)

Here's another image that shows what appears to be an umbrella spacer and a support rod ...

Again -- THANKS!!!

BTW -- they have not arrived yet..  These pics are from the seller.  I'll definitely remove all the stickers and labels.


----------



## attmci (Oct 16, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> Excellent.  Thank you for your quick response.  Do you have any thoughts as to how they sound or a sound profile?  Are these typically sought-after audio tubes or just vintage 'meh' tubes?
> 
> Again -- Thanks!!



These are not sought-after 6SN7W or 6SN7A (as marked on the tube). I hope you don't spend a lot of $ on these tubes.

As Ken said, these are military version of 6SN7GTAs.

YES, you guys are driving up the price of all kinds of 6SN7GT. The $60 you paid are ok price. However, no, they won't touch the SQ of a real pair of KR VT-231. The 6SN7W/A is another story and much more $$$.

The photo of a pair of real 6SN7W/6SN7As are attached.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2018)

Yeah, I knew these were WGTAs and not A or W, despite what the dynamo label says.  I went with the etching on the glass as the final determination.  From what I've read today, it seems the Syl Brown Base WGTA is still a nice tube, but certainly not at the same level as the A or W.  I paid $60 for the pair, so hopefully it still represents a good value.  If it meets or surpasses the 1940's Ken-Rad VT-231, I'll be a very happy camper!!


----------



## Ripper2860

attmci said:


> However, no, they won't touch the SQ of a real pair of KR VT-231.



Ooooh.  I've been coveting the metal base A and W since reading about them. 

A bit disappointing that the WGTA's will likely not surpass the KRs.  Don't get me wrong, I do love the KR's and already own 3 of the 1940's staggered black-plate KR JAN VT-231 tubes (clear and black glass), but I read about the wide soundstage of the brown base WGTA's and was hoping to get that and a bit more SLAM.  Given that sometimes the gear the tubes are associated with impact their final sound, it'll be interesting how the WGTA's sound with the Lyr 3.

On another note:  I did procure a Sylvania 6SN7W black base Tall Boy tube.  I'm anxious to see how it does, as well.  While it is not at the same level of praise as the metal base versions, the comments seem pretty favorable of the black base Tall Boy.  Keeping my fingers crossed that it does not exhibit any microphonics or arc'ing as some say they are prone to doing.  Hopefully a headphone amp is less demanding and less prone to these issues.   

Thanks!!!


----------



## Ripper2860

Hello.  My name is Richard and I'm a tube addict ...

I snagged a couple of strong and supposedly pretty well balanced Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes with an 052 (1950) year code. These are 2- hole 'Bad Boy' style (I know they're not real Bad Boys) and they have a raised bottom mica, and bottom getter chrome flashing, black base and green labeling with the classic 6SN7GT in a stop-sign logo on the glass.  Do any of you fine folks have any additional info on this year.  I seem to find a lot about Sylvie VT-321, W's, A's, 1950 Chrome Dome, and '52 GT's, but not much about this year GT. I can't seem to really discern on the Reference thread which comments may be related to a 1950 tube.  Any insight or opinions are appreciated.  (PIC below)_


----------



## Skylab

What else is there to know? Fabulous tube from the heyday of vacuum tube production. Post-war Sylvania tubes are outstanding (as were the JAN tubes too of course). I use all Sylvania tubes in my Cary SLP-05, and trust me, I tried them all.


----------



## Ripper2860

Need help deciphering a date code on an RCA 6SN7GTB.   It's a black plate/single side getter, silver label RCA with date code ACS.  Any help in determining year would be appreciated.  Also any opinions on this tube.

Thanks.


----------



## gibosi

The GTB was introduced in 1954, so that is the earliest it could have been made. Ring getters were introduced around 1960. You don't say if your tube has a rectangular getter or a ring getter, but that information can help to date the tube. And there is a document available on the web with information regarding RCA date codes:

http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf

On page 18 of the that document, a list of two-letter date codes used between 1956 and 1976 is provided. "AC" would indicate that the tube was packed in a box and shipped out in April, 1964. However, your date code is three letters: "ACS" and I don't know the significance of "S"....

Sorry, I don't own any GTB tubes, so will have to leave impressions to others...


----------



## Wes S

To all,

I have been reading, but can't seem to find enough results to get a good answer. 

Is there any sonic difference between the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt (black glass/round plate), with copper grid post or steel grid post?

Thanks,

Wes


----------



## gibosi

Wes S said:


> To all,
> 
> I have been reading, but can't seem to find enough results to get a good answer.
> 
> Is there any sonic difference between the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt (black glass/round plate), with copper grid post or steel grid post?



Not to my ears.


----------



## Ripper2860

gibosi said:


> The GTB was introduced in 1954, so that is the earliest it could have been made. Ring getters were introduced around 1960. You don't say if your tube has a rectangular getter or a ring getter, but that information can help to date the tube. And there is a document available on the web with information regarding RCA date codes:
> 
> http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf
> 
> ...



Thank you.  I found that document and I too could not find an ACS designation.  This particular RCA is a D side getter holder, not a ring, so it looks like a mid-to-late '50s vintage.


----------



## Wes S

gibosi said:


> Not to my ears.


Thanks!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 27, 2018)

I hope I'm not being a pest.  I really have tried looking up this info. via Google Search and also looked at the 6SN7 tube identification thread, but I just can't seem to locate the info. I seek.  You fine folks have proven knowledgeable and helpful in my previous queries, so I thought I'd try here again. 

I got some tubes as part of a 4 tube lot -- two were Magnavox labeled / Sylvania made '53 Chrome Domes, and then there are two Sylvania 6SN7GTA's.  I'm having the toughest time identifying the 6SN7GTA tubes vintage.  The 2 are identical and as follows:

Medium bottle
Fully round mica spacers top/bottom w/ no spikes.
Black angled T plates like :  -/ \-
Top chrome flashing (not fully extending like chrome dome -- just top 1/4)
Yellow lettering Sylvania and logo on base
6SN7 GTA is marked inside the stop sign emblem on the top of the tube glass envelope

Now to where I need some help.  Each tube has what I think is a 2 letter date code (BB for one and AF for the other).  These are located on the base next to the S in triangle w/ lightning bolt logo.  Anyone have a clue as to what the BB and AF codes mean? There are no other marking on the base other then the logo, Sylvania name, and the 2 letter codes.  On the top of the glass envelope there is a I4B under the 6SN7GTA stop sign emblem on one tube envelope and B4B on the other. Are any of these date codes?  I've found references to 2 letter date codes used on Sylvania and other tubes, but I have not found a table or info on how to decipher it for Sylvania.  I'm really hoping to identify the year for these 2 tubes.

Thanks in advance for any help!!


----------



## gibosi (Jul 27, 2018)

I have yet to find a key to Sylvania's two-letter date codes. My best guess is that these are either shipping dates or warranty dates as they were applied just before the tube was packed and shipped.

The three-digit etched codes located just below the hexagon are rather well-known and are likely manufacturing dates as the were applied in the factory. The first digit, a letter, is the month, the second digit, a number, is the year, and the third, a letter, is the factory.

So I4B -> I is the 9th letter of the alphabet and represents the 9th month, September. 4 = 1954, and I have no idea which manufacturing plant B represents. And in the same fashion, B4B would be February, 1954 and factory B.

Now, you will see the same date codes on 1940's Sylvania production (and 1930's production, as well), so a little detective work might be necessary. For example, we know that the 6SN7W was manufactured only the 1940's, so the etched code C5 is March, 1945. And we know that the 6SN7GTA was introduced in 1950, so these later tubes must have been manufactured in the 1950's.


----------



## Ripper2860

Extremely helpful and detailed information.  Thank you very much!!!


----------



## Ripper2860

I purchased a Philco (Sylvania) 6SN7GT with the below attributes:

1. Bottom getter flashing extending 1/3 up the tube
2. 3-hole black T-plates
3. Top rectangular mica with 3- points per side
4. Bottom rectangular mica.

Looks just like an early 50's Sylvania GT, but has a weird date code of 5302.  I've done some poking around and cannot really find a definitive answer -- there seems to be more RCA era date code info than Sylvie era.  I'm guessing it's YEAR | WEEK or MONTH which would mean 1953 | week 2 or Feb), but I'm hoping you fine folks can confirm or provide more info.

Thanks again!!!

Richard


----------



## gibosi

Ripper2860 said:


> I purchased a Philco (Sylvania) 6SN7GT with the below attributes:
> 
> 1. Bottom getter flashing extending 1/3 up the tube
> 2. 3-hole black T-plates
> ...



Around 1950, Philco began to use the EIA dating system, that is, YYWW, so it is likely that 5302 was the second week of 1953. And as 3-hole Sylvania "Bad Boys" were still being manufactured in 1953, that is likely what you have.


----------



## Ripper2860

Once again -- your extensive knowledge of tubes saves the day!!  

Thank you!!!


----------



## FindingNewSound

Hello everyone, I know this might not be the appropriate place to ask, so I'm terribly sorry in advance, but does anyone have a spare Kenrad vt-231 black glass? I'm looking for one for my Lyr 3, would consider buying a pair too.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes.  It's me again and yes, I'm once again perplexed and have a question ...

I purchased and received a Sylvania tube with 6SN7GT marked on the base and on the top of the glass envelope.  The thing is, it looks like a short bottle 6SN7W.  The plates look identical to short bottle W and it even has the single free standing support rod between the plates in addition to heavy top chrome flashing extending almost 1/2-way down.  So my question is:  Did Sylvania ever make a short bottle 6SN7W labelled as a 6SN7GT?  (It's definitely not a Chrome Dome).

As usual -- thanks!!!


----------



## gibosi

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes.  It's me again and yes, I'm once again perplexed and have a question ...
> 
> I purchased and received a Sylvania tube with 6SN7GT marked on the base and on the top of the glass envelope.  The thing is, it looks like a short bottle 6SN7W.  The plates look identical to short bottle W and it even has the single free standing support rod between the plates in addition to heavy top chrome flashing extending almost 1/2-way down.  So my question is:  Did Sylvania ever make a short bottle 6SN7W labelled as a 6SN7GT?  (It's definitely not a Chrome Dome).
> 
> As usual -- thanks!!!



How about a pic? Especially the lettering on the base and the top to help with dating. Just off the top of my heard, it occurs to me that it might be a 1950's era 6SN7WGT


----------



## Ripper2860

Will do as soon as I get home.  Tube is a  black base with racetrack mica which is different that the 50s WGT and WGTA tubes I've seen.  I'll also take a closer look at top mica to see if it has an umbrella structure.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 15, 2018)

Here you go @gibosi --

Weird.  Umbrella top mica and a 'W' on the top of the envelope, but a 6SN7GT in stop sign logo on the base.  If I'm reading it correctly, date code looks like a 1946 /39th week.  To me it's all the signs of a short bottle W except for the base stating 6SN7GT. 

Here are pics of just thew mystery GT / W ...

Thanks!!!


----------



## gibosi

The etched info on top tells you all you need to know. It is indeed a short-bottle 6SN7W. The etching is part of the manufacturing process, The base was added later. Sometimes weeks, months or even years later. Thus, I trust the etching to be more accurate than the text and graphics on the base.

I can't quite make out the numbers and letters etched below the hexagon, but the final "5" indicates 1945. You did well! Congratulations!


----------



## Ripper2860

Whew.  I was concerned it may have been a counterfeit.  The seller posted and sold it as a GT, so the price was not that of a typical W.  And yes. that is a 5 on the etching.  

Once again -- many thanks!!


----------



## TheSnafu

Scutey said:


> Picked up a pair of *Psvane CV 181 TMK2* for my Feliks Elise
> 
> _downside is the price and possibly life expectancy._



Hi, nice setup 

How where they in longer run, did you experience any problems with them ? 

Thanks


----------



## Scutey

TheSnafu said:


> Hi, nice setup
> 
> How where they in longer run, did you experience any problems with them ?
> 
> Thanks


Thanks!  I've had no problems with them, dead silent, fairly neutral, airy, detailed, wide soundstage, I use them with Tung Sol 5998 which gives a very nice balanced sound.


----------



## FindingNewSound

This question might have been asked before, but is there any difference between a clear and black glass Kenrad vt-231? Also, I found one black glass that is branded US NAVY CKR-6SN7GT, date code E3, is this the same as vt-231? Thanks!


----------



## gibosi (Aug 21, 2018)

The correct answer is yes and no. 

GE purchased Ken-Rad's tube operation in January, 1945, and naturally, over time, changes were made.

The original war-time Ken-Rad 6SN7 had what are often described as "staggered plates."  That is, the parallel ladder plates are installed at an angle relative to the top and bottom micas.  The black glass version and clear glass version with this construction sound the same. In the later GE-influenced version, the plates are installed inline with the top and bottom micas. These sound different and many believe inferior to the originals.

What is printed on the base is of no real importance. Look for staggered plates.

Clear glass, staggered plates




These two threads can be very helpful:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> To my knowledge, there are only the three standard versions of the Sylvania 6SN7W, two tall bottles, with metal or plastic bases, and the small bottle. Sometimes you will see one of these labeled as 6SN7A, but it is the exact same tube. Unfortunately for those of us who can run 12 volt tubes, Sylvania did not make a 12SN7W. However, there are rebrands. I have in my collection a metal-based Philco and a metal-based Delco. Good luck in your  hunt!


True.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> The correct answer is yes and no.
> 
> GE purchased Ken-Rad's tube operation in January, 1945, and naturally, over time, changes were made.
> 
> ...


True. 

None-staggered = GE 6SN7GT


----------



## FindingNewSound

@gibosi Thanks!


----------



## TheSnafu (Sep 26, 2018)

Got a pair of these today: NU 6SN7GT ( U.S. NAVY CNU 6SN7GT made in U.S.A. , GU both ), just warming them up. Looks like unused. Scratches on coating you see are inside, tubes itself are ok.
A tad microphonic when tapping harder to the top, very low noise floor except when choosing amps source when relay snaps and that echoes through from speakers very slightly.
Sound is very nice and balanced, need to burn them in for a while and then sit down to listen them ( preamp is Coplad CTA-301 mkII ).
Pair of Psvanes mentioned above are in mail, will get them later this/next week.

SOLD, 60€ pair.


----------



## Scutey

Nice looking pair of tubes you have there!, narrowly missed out on a pair a couple weeks ago, hopefully one day I'll be able to get some, enjoy!.


----------



## m17xr2b

Does anyone know if there are any MOV valves with a foil getter like sylvania? I have a 6SN7 marked gecovalve which should be MOV but the foil getter confuses me since I've only seen inverted cup, rectangular and halo on the british tubes.


----------



## gibosi

Now that you mention it, I have never seen a foil getter on any British valve. Which leads me to wonder if your Gecovalve was in fact manufactured elsewhere....


----------



## m17xr2b

So in actual fact it's a ken rad tube. I've seen Sylvania British branded tubes but this is my first ken rad.


----------



## attmci

m17xr2b said:


> Does anyone know if there are any MOV valves with a foil getter like sylvania? I have a 6SN7 marked gecovalve which should be MOV but the foil getter confuses me since I've only seen inverted cup, rectangular and halo on the british tubes.


Picture please?


----------



## koven

Any thoughts on these? Is this price a rip off?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-SYLVAN...-231-TUBES-TROPHY-QUALITY-PAIRS/232274550313?


----------



## gibosi

koven said:


> ....Is this price a rip off?



IMO, yes.


----------



## Wes S

koven said:


> Any thoughts on these? Is this price a rip off?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-SYLVAN...-231-TUBES-TROPHY-QUALITY-PAIRS/232274550313?


Perhaps, they might be worth close to that, if the had 3 holes in the plates.  However, recently the real bad boys, have been going for a lot less.  I have seen lots of cool looking tubes, from that seller, but have never been crazy enough to spend that much.


----------



## Astral Abyss

koven said:


> Any thoughts on these? Is this price a rip off?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-SYLVAN...-231-TUBES-TROPHY-QUALITY-PAIRS/232274550313?



Museum quality eh?  That eBay description should be in a museum for the most long winded description of an ordinary pair of tubes I've ever seen.  Guy must have been a used car salesman previously.


----------



## koven

Haha I guess I will avoid that pair.. 

I'm looking for a pair to use in WA22 but having trouble finding a good deal for <$300.. suggestions appreciated!


----------



## Thaddy

koven said:


> Haha I guess I will avoid that pair..
> 
> I'm looking for a pair to use in WA22 but having trouble finding a good deal for <$300.. suggestions appreciated!



I recently got some 6SN7 -> 6DJ8 adapters for my WA2 and have found four pairs of matched 6SN7's for no more than $60 a pair.  NOS Raytheon's, Sylvania, RCA, and NOS Tung Sols.  Are you looking for a specific tube?


----------



## koven

Thaddy said:


> I recently got some 6SN7 -> 6DJ8 adapters for my WA2 and have found four pairs of matched 6SN7's for no more than $60 a pair.  NOS Raytheon's, Sylvania, RCA, and NOS Tung Sols.  Are you looking for a specific tube?



Nothing in specific.. not too well versed in tubes.. just something that is an improvement from stock for my WA22


----------



## Thaddy

koven said:


> Nothing in specific.. not too well versed in tubes.. just something that is an improvement from stock for my WA22



I'm my experience, it's more enjoyable to buy four sets of matched tubes at $50 a pair than a single matched pair for $200.  Rolling in different tubes is part of the fun.  I own ~60 tubes for my WA2 that range from $20 a pair to $270 a pair.  Right now I'm really enjoying my NOS Chatham Clear Top 6AS7G's, Sylvania "Chrome Dome" 6SN7's, and RFT EZ81's.  Total cost for all six was $129.95.  Expensive isn't always better!


----------



## koven

Thaddy said:


> I'm my experience, it's more enjoyable to buy four sets of matched tubes at $50 a pair than a single matched pair for $200.  Rolling in different tubes is part of the fun.  I own ~60 tubes for my WA2 that range from $20 a pair to $270 a pair.  Right now I'm really enjoying my NOS Chatham Clear Top 6AS7G's, Sylvania "Chrome Dome" 6SN7's, and RFT EZ81's.  Total cost for all six was $129.95.  Expensive isn't always better!



Thanks! I will look into those options. Do you buy off eBay or a specific vendor?


----------



## Thaddy

From eBay, I've purchased from:  bangybangtubes, vacuumtubesinc, spin4cards, christopher2159, and fng2u.  All have a lot of excellent feedback.

Websites I also typically visit are: TubeWorld, VacuumTubes.net, The Tube Store, AudioTubes, and Tube Monger.

Keep in mind some of these sites don't do a great job keeping their prices and stock updated, so if you're looking for something very specific you'll have to shoot them an email.  I've gotten some of my best tubes for excellent prices this way


----------



## koven

Thaddy said:


> From eBay, I've purchased from:  bangybangtubes, vacuumtubesinc, spin4cards, christopher2159, and fng2u.  All have a lot of excellent feedback.
> 
> Websites I also typically visit are: TubeWorld, VacuumTubes.net, The Tube Store, AudioTubes, and Tube Monger.
> 
> Keep in mind some of these sites don't do a great job keeping their prices and stock updated, so if you're looking for something very specific you'll have to shoot them an email.  I've gotten some of my best tubes for excellent prices this way



That is helpful, thanks!


----------



## timb5881

Best advice has been given, it is better to buy pairs of tubes that are not trophy ones.   There are a lot of good Sylvania, Tung-Sol, RCA and GE tubes to be had.  Even better is to find ones labeled as other brands such as Silvertone Philco Crosley etc  Check out Brent Jessie’s website he is a good guy to buy from


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys, just fyi I'm letting go of my small collection of 6sn7 / 6080 tubes. Measured each and every one of them, and even paid to a professional service to double-check my own findings. If anyone wants to take advantage here's my ad: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-eu-6sn7-6080-el12-sold-as-lot.889555/


----------



## larcenasb (Oct 2, 2018)

I definitely agree with Thaddy, the variety will really help you narrow down what kind of sound you prefer.


----------



## TheSnafu

Sometime ago i replaced E88CC's with TungSol 6SN7GTB's (with adapters obviously). Sockets sit pretty closely but with socket saver i managed to fit in CV181-Z's... Gap between is around 1mm...


----------



## Nik74

It may be my easily triggered OCD but I find those suffocating C181s anxiety inducing. Then again , if it pleases your ears...


----------



## Jozurr

I feel the same way. Doesn't look comfortable, the pins dont seem to be sitting perfectly and the tubes touching each other isnt a good idea either.


----------



## TheSnafu

Thanks for the replies, tubes are sitting solidly and are not touching, there is 2-3mm gap between. Since they run really cool i doubt that's too close.

"Flexible" connection is between adapter and socket saver where i added ~1-2mm long sheath to each pin taken from thin wire. So no visible pins. Also board sockets are slightly tinted outward.
I'd like to think i'm pretty safe here even it does look wobbly ( sorry about that TOCD people  )...


One thing i'd like to ask: CV181's run really, really cool, barely hand warm. Is this ok ? I guess it is because tube itself has quite a lot of surface vs voltage it uses (vs e88cc).


And about sound, glorious. Beats hands down my previous grey bottled NU 6SN7GT's and new production TungSols. Actually amazing how much better these are. 


cheers


----------



## Nik74

TheSnafu said:


> Thanks for the replies, tubes are sitting solidly and are not touching, there is 2-3mm gap between. Since they run really cool i doubt that's too close.
> 
> "Flexible" connection is between adapter and socket saver where i added ~1-2mm long sheath to each pin taken from thin wire. So no visible pins. Also board sockets are slightly tinted outward.
> I'd like to think i'm pretty safe here even it does look wobbly ( sorry about that TOCD people  )...
> ...



Which CV181 are those ? No expert and can’t recognise them. They might work nicely in my headamp...


----------



## TheSnafu

Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z


----------



## Nik74

Cheers


----------



## Scutey

I use a pair of the CV 181 Z in my Feliks Elise, and when paired with a pair of Tung Sol 5998 the sound is very good, open, airy, extended and detailed, Could just do with a tad more bass.


----------



## attmci

Thaddy said:


> From eBay, I've purchased from:  bangybangtubes, vacuumtubesinc, spin4cards, christopher2159, and fng2u.  All have a lot of excellent feedback.
> 
> Websites I also typically visit are: TubeWorld, VacuumTubes.net, The Tube Store, AudioTubes, and Tube Monger.
> 
> Keep in mind some of these sites don't do a great job keeping their prices and stock updated, so if you're looking for something very specific you'll have to shoot them an email.  I've gotten some of my best tubes for excellent prices this way


Bangybangtubes? R u kidding?


----------



## Thaddy

attmci said:


> Bangybangtubes? R u kidding?



I didn't come up with the name, and I've gotten some decent tubes for good prices.  So no, I'm not kidding.


----------



## gibosi

On numerous occasions, Bangybangtubes has listed fakes and this has happened too many times for me to ignore. Last year he was using a different eBay name, but recently changed it, perhaps to escape his reputation and start over? Tubes that are relatively common are probably a safe bet. But I would advise extreme wariness when considering anything of high value.

Anyway, this is just my opinion based on what I have observed..... YMMV.


----------



## Thaddy

I was unaware of his history!  I did order relatively common tubes and he shipped them promptly.  I'll keep my more rare purchases to the trusted websites and vendors, thanks for the heads up.


----------



## attmci

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubes&m=275412


----------



## timb5881 (Oct 13, 2018)

Maybe some one here can help me id a tube.  It is a Tung-Sol, black plate and black base.  It is a 6 volt tube twin triode with a round  mica top.  Now here is the unusual thing, the plate's are at an angle to each other, and looking from the top down, the support rods form in the form of a V.  It is a side getter tube.  The tube markings are all worn off, and Tung-Sol is in white letters on the base.  Each plate has 2 holes and the plate's are t shaped.  The getter is D or Horse Shoe.


----------



## attmci

timb5881 said:


> Maybe some one here can help me id a tube.  It is a Tung-Sol, black plate and black base.  It is a 6 volt tube twin triode with a round  mica top.  Now here is the unusual thing, the plate's are at an angle to each other, and looking from the top down, the support rods form in the form of a V.  It is a side getter tube.  The tube markings are all worn off, and Tung-Sol is in white letters on the base.  Each plate has 2 holes and the plate's are t shaped.  The getter is D or Horse Shoe.


Picture?


----------



## timb5881

attmci said:


> Picture?


----------



## gibosi

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/

However, I don't see an entry for a Tung-Sol with angled T-plates and a side getter, so yours might have been manufactured elsewhere and Tung-Sol simply rebranded it as theirs....


----------



## attmci (Oct 13, 2018)

timb5881 said:


>


I agree with Ken. If it has side getter, it could be a rebranded GE 6SN7GTB.

Like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/372333533360

See the GE dots?


----------



## timb5881

attmci said:


> I agree with Ken. If it has side getter, it could be a rebranded GE 6SN7GTB.
> 
> Like this one:
> 
> ...





attmci said:


> I agree with Ken. If it has side getter, it could be a rebranded GE 6SN7GTB.
> 
> Like this one:
> 
> ...


That could be it.  Here are some more pics.


----------



## timb5881 (Oct 13, 2018)

timb5881 said:


> That could be it.  Here are some more pics.


This may be it

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PERFECT-BALANCED-NIB-NOS-6SN7gtb-TungSol-USA-Tube-Black-Plates-TV-7-u-Tested/183468879053?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL
But this is a top getter.

The plates on mine are T or triangle shaped, not flat.


----------



## attmci (Oct 14, 2018)

Thaddy said:


> I was unaware of his history!  I did order relatively common tubes and he shipped them promptly.  I'll keep my more rare purchases to the trusted websites and vendors, thanks for the heads up.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Facto...273109275238?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401492602717

 Examples from this great seller.


----------



## Strat-Mangler

Quick question ; would you guys buy a tube with a crack in its base, if the seller has a good reputation (on eBay) and has confirmed to have tested it in an amp for any abnormal behavior?


----------



## Wes S

Strat-Mangler said:


> Quick question ; would you guys buy a tube with a crack in its base, if the seller has a good reputation (on eBay) and has confirmed to have tested it in an amp for any abnormal behavior?


Yes, as long as the glass is not loose.


----------



## Ripper2860

^^^ Ditto.

Also -- a bit of superglue in a hairline crack works as a nice filler and will work fine with the heat.


----------



## attmci

Strat-Mangler said:


> Quick question ; would you guys buy a tube with a crack in its base, if the seller has a good reputation (on eBay) and has confirmed to have tested it in an amp for any abnormal behavior?


Tube could be fine. But you should get at least 30% discount.


----------



## TheSnafu

Strat-Mangler said:


> Quick question ; would you guys buy a tube with a crack in its base, if the seller has a good reputation (on eBay) and has confirmed to have tested it in an amp for any abnormal behavior?



Personally, no. It might have some other issues if it's been handled that rough. Crack in equipment that goes constantly from cold to hot isn't usually good thing even if you glue/fix it.

Specially if it's some superduperuniquetube, is it really worth taking risk ? Don't get obsessed with one tube/sale, just move on 

my2c


----------



## Wes S

TheSnafu said:


> Personally, no. It might have some other issues if it's been handled that rough. Crack in equipment that goes constantly from cold to hot isn't usually good thing even if you glue/fix it.
> 
> Specially if it's some superduperuniquetube, is it really worth taking risk ? Don't get obsessed with one tube/sale, just move on
> 
> my2c


I have several tubes, with cracks in the bases, and aside from the visual crack, nothing is wrong with the tube.  As long as the glass is not loose, there is no noise and microphonics, and the tube test well, i say go for it.  Some great tubes, with cracked bases, can be found at a discount, and work just like new.


----------



## Ripper2860

I've purchased a 3x tubes with hairline cracks - a tall bottle 6SN7W, a 6SN7GT Sylvania Bad-Boy, and a Sylvania VT-231.  All from reputable sellers that stated they were good with tight glass.  I have had no issues with any of them and even confirmed via independent testing.  I fill the crack with super glue to minimize the possibility of extending the crack due to expansion and contraction that is normal with tubes heating and cooling.  So far, so good. 

If it represents a value selling at significantly less than one without a crack and it is from a reputable seller, I see no reason as to why not.


----------



## mvn1

Hi all,

question for the brains trust - how do you guys store your tubes? With mine now starting to be worth a bit, I'd like to up the protection beyond the white cardboard boxes.

I was thinking a small padded pelican case - not really interested in the vintage stuff on Ebay. Any ideas?


----------



## rosgr63

I am using some pelican type cases labeled according to type and origin and chest of draws labeled in a similar way.


----------



## gibosi

Are you planning on carrying them around? If all you are doing is storing them, then the white boxes are perfectly fine.


----------



## MIKELAP

mvn1 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> question for the brains trust - how do you guys store your tubes? With mine now starting to be worth a bit, I'd like to up the protection beyond the white cardboard boxes.
> 
> I was thinking a small padded pelican case - not really interested in the vintage stuff on Ebay. Any ideas?


Try and get a tube caddy can sometimes find very nice ones for me this is the best alternative .I have several of these cases keeps your investment secure


----------



## attmci




----------



## CEE TEE

Harboer Freight may have cheap storage or I got something at Home Depot with a built in handle.  (Much smaller than the above.)


----------



## attmci

CEE TEE said:


> Harboer Freight may have cheap storage or I got something at Home Depot with a built in handle.  (Much smaller than the above.)


I organize the tubes in smaller boxes, then store in those.


----------



## TheSnafu

ASR did some testing with Schiit Saga and couple of 6SN7's (variants)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...be-rolling-of-schiit-saga-pre-amplifier.6522/


----------



## the finisher (Feb 24, 2019)

Too bad for Amir, he won't be able to measure the sound quality from these tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

1578 nice tubes.


----------



## attmci (Feb 25, 2019)

Do you trust these tube guys?

vacuum tube valley 11_Spring_1999 9.pdf

GE 6SN7 GTA (1953). A tube with nice
imaging and a romantic, satisfying sound.
In addition, it had powerful bass and
detailed, accurate mids. Rating 94

I hate to rate tubes. And think it's insane to promote a specific tubes and argue with anyone if s/he doesn't like it. It's very important to add "for me" to that kind of statement. Otherwise it is at least misleading.


----------



## larcenasb

Very interesting pdf, I'll add it to my vintage tube files. Thanks for posting! I've listened to a lot of those tubes and the descriptions are pretty much accurate to what I've heard. However, I didn't expereince sibilance with the Tung-Sol VT-231/6SN7GT...to me, they were always smooth and natural-sounding...perhaps they just had a bad tube. I wish they included the RCA VT-231/6SN7GT, I would love to see what they'd write for those as they're among my favorites.

But yeah, a hard number rating like that is curious...how do they decide so precisely?...


----------



## rosgr63

Interesting reading, thanks for sharing.
Personal preferences and system synergy are critical factors too.


----------



## Pharmaboy

MIKELAP said:


> Try and get a tube caddy can sometimes find very nice ones for me this is the best alternative .I have several of these cases keeps your investment secure



Damn, that is beautiful!


----------



## rosgr63

Pharmaboy said:


> Damn, that is beautiful!



It is beautiful.

is collecting tubes an investment or an addiction?????


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 2, 2019)

Both.  

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## Scutey

For me it's definitely both too.


----------



## Pharmaboy

rosgr63 said:


> It is beautiful.
> 
> is collecting tubes an investment or an addiction?????



Obviously it's both. Another manifestation of fixation on electronic objects & the way they sound.

Plus tubes glow...a little electronic fireplace to gaze at.

I've had a new/gently used tube amp for exactly 3 days & already I'm scheming to buy a "unicorn" rectifier made in England in the 1960s & currently unfindable (ie, acting like an addict).


----------



## rosgr63

You are getting hooked, careful!

Enjoy the music with your new amp.


----------



## alvin sawdust

the finisher said:


> Too bad for Amir, he won't be able to measure the sound quality from these tubes.


My favourite driver at the moment.


----------



## rosgr63

A great tube indeed.


----------



## whirlwind

MIKELAP said:


> Try and get a tube caddy can sometimes find very nice ones for me this is the best alternative .I have several of these cases keeps your investment secure



I remember carrying one of these around when doing service calls for my father in the mid to late 70's and the 80's.
The caddy could get pretty heavy with all of the tubes and the tools in it....soldering irons, volt meters,ect.
This picture brings back some great memories.

Like many here I store my tubes in tube boxes then store those in mid to large size rubber tubs made by rubbermaid. These are nice as they are stackable and I keep them in the basement.

I keep a few smaller tubes in my closet in my listening room for quick access so I can roll tubes in my amps.
Something like these little tubes...these are cheap, only a couple of dollars each. It works out well and keeps the tubes some what organized.
A tub this size will hold 24 power tubes and many more driver tubes, so no need to run to the basement all the time. Getting to old to run the basements steps very often


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice Joe, I have small container for some of my tubes the others are in boxes.

Getting old?
Come on, what can I say for myself......I don't dare!


----------



## alvin sawdust

rosgr63 said:


> A great tube indeed.


I remember someone on here saying that they thought the 1578 is great at the frequency extremes but lacks in the midrange. I certainly don't find that to be the case as I find the mid presence to be quite magical.


----------



## whirlwind

rosgr63 said:


> Very nice Joe, I have small container for some of my tubes the others are in boxes.
> 
> Getting old?
> Come on, what can I say for myself......I don't dare!




You probably need another house to store all of your tubes! Glenn told me you have tubes that he has never seen before.
I don't want to call you old also.......but  

My wife tells me that 60 years old is the new 40.

Then I proceed to tell her that , yes, and 9:00 pm is the new midnight!


----------



## rosgr63

whirlwind said:


> You probably need another house to store all of your tubes! Glenn told me you have tubes that he has never seen before.
> I don't want to call you old also.......but
> 
> My wife tells me that 60 years old is the new 40.
> ...



Oh your Lady is my friend, my respect.

I like it: **60 years old is the new 40*".


----------



## rosgr63

The crazy thing is I have amps that can use all these tubes.


----------



## Pharmaboy

rosgr63 said:


> Very nice Joe, I have small container for some of my tubes the others are in boxes.
> 
> Getting old?
> Come on, what can I say for myself......I don't dare!



I'd much rather talk about audio gear I can't afford--or maybe a list of past root canals--than getting old.


----------



## gibosi

rosgr63 said:


> Oh your Lady is my friend, my respect.
> 
> I like it: **60 years old is the new 40*".



And I would be thrilled if a woman, younger than I am, were to tell me that 70 is the new 50. lol


----------



## rosgr63

gibosi said:


> And I would be thrilled if a woman, younger than I am, were to tell me that 70 is the new 50. lol



Me too Ken

The only consolation is that some tubes I use are older than me............


----------



## gibosi

Yes, thank goodness for my No 27's, which are about 90 years old. ahaha


----------



## detoxguy

Does anyone know anything about this tube? I took a chance while looking at what a local organ repair shop had.


----------



## gibosi

I don't own any Westinghouse 6SN7GTB and I am not sure that Westinghouse even manufactured this tube. Most of what I see on eBay look a lot like rebranded RCA production. Unfortunately the picture you posted doesn't provide much detail, but I would suggest that you compare what you have to pictures of RCA 6SN7GTB. And if you have an RCA of similar vintage, check to see if they sound the same or different.

Good luck!


----------



## detoxguy

I’ll try a few different pics


----------



## detoxguy

Thanks for the info, not super experienced with tubes, have a new Lyr 3 arriving tomorrow and picked up a new production Tung-sol as an upgrade to stock tube they send and saw this NOS Westinghouse but haven’t seen the ‘premium’ label before. Says made in Canada on tube, looking forward to trying it but have no frame of reference hehe


----------



## gibosi

OK. Again, while I am not sure if Westinghouse ever manufactured the 6SN7 in the US, I am aware of the fact that they had manufacturing facilities in Canada. And I am now inclined to believe that yours is not a rebrand. It was very likely "made in Canada" by Westinghouse. Again, I have no experience with this tube, but I do have a VU71 Canadian Westinghouse rectifier and it is quite good.

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aas0033.htm

After you have spent some time with this tube, how about letting us know what you think?


----------



## detoxguy

Will do, although I currently lack the vocabulary and the experience with other tubes to covey my impressions properly but looking forward to learning.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Question for the 6SN7/6F8G experts here  sorry if this is a topic that has been raised, but I haven't found a solution.

I am running 6F8G drivers on my Bottlehead Crackatwoa OTL using a 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter.  They sound fantastic, running Tung Sol VT-99 flat black plate primarily.  However, I am getting right channel buzzing with the 6F8G.  I suspect the tube is picking up power supply noise and is not properly grounded.  If I move a finger close to the top cap, the sound is amplified.  If I touch the top plate of the amp, the sound is diminished.

Has anyone come across this issue?  Is this an inherent part of using 6F8G's?  I am wondering if there is an effective way to simulate my touching the amp with a ground wire perhaps.  It's forced me to use lesser 6SN7's, not quite as good as the VT-99, but without the incessant buzzing.  I appreciate your help.


----------



## Pharmaboy (Mar 5, 2019)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Question for the 6SN7/6F8G experts here  sorry if this is a topic that has been raised, but I haven't found a solution.
> 
> I am running 6F8G drivers on my Bottlehead Crackatwoa OTL using a 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter.  They sound fantastic, running Tung Sol VT-99 flat black plate primarily.  However, I am getting right channel buzzing with the 6F8G.  I suspect the tube is picking up power supply noise and is not properly grounded.  If I move a finger close to the top cap, the sound is amplified.  If I touch the top plate of the amp, the sound is diminished.
> 
> Has anyone come across this issue?  Is this an inherent part of using 6F8G's?  I am wondering if there is an effective way to simulate my touching the amp with a ground wire perhaps.  It's forced me to use lesser 6SN7's, not quite as good as the VT-99, but without the incessant buzzing.  I appreciate your help.



I have a different situation--running 6F8G tubes using Woo's 6SN7 adapter (on WA22). This adapter has a captive silver cord w/a cap that fits over the top of the 6F8G tube seated in it. I'm not a techie, but just assumed one function of this adapter + pigtail (besides pin-matching) is grounding.

What kind of adapter are you using w/these tubes? Has it worked in other situations?


----------



## gibosi

L0rdGwyn said:


> Question for the 6SN7/6F8G experts here  sorry if this is a topic that has been raised, but I haven't found a solution.
> 
> I am running 6F8G drivers on my Bottlehead Crackatwoa OTL using a 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter.  They sound fantastic, running Tung Sol VT-99 flat black plate primarily.  However, I am getting right channel buzzing with the 6F8G.  I suspect the tube is picking up power supply noise and is not properly grounded.  If I move a finger close to the top cap, the sound is amplified.  If I touch the top plate of the amp, the sound is diminished.
> 
> Has anyone come across this issue?  Is this an inherent part of using 6F8G's?  I am wondering if there is an effective way to simulate my touching the amp with a ground wire perhaps.  It's forced me to use lesser 6SN7's, not quite as good as the VT-99, but without the incessant buzzing.  I appreciate your help.



Most of us who run 6F8G have encountered the same problem. The 6F8G is quite susceptible to microphonics and extraneous RF noise, and therefore, in the late 1930's, RCA deliberately developed the 6SN7 to be a better 6F8G. So yes, this is an inherent problem when using 6F8Gs. And sometimes it is necessary to roll through several in order to get a quiet one.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Pharmaboy said:


> I have a different situation--running 6F8G tubes using Woo's 6SN7 adapter (on WA22). This adapter has a captive silver cord w/a cap that fits over the top of the 6F8G tube seated in it. I'm not a techie, but just assumed one function of this adapter pigtail (besides pin-matching)  is grounding.
> 
> What kind of adapter are you using w/these tubes? Has it worked in other situations?



It is Chinese made, so certainly not the pinnacle of quality!  I have one other Chinese made 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter that has the same issue.  I had considered trying the Woo Audio 6F8G to 6SN7, then stacking with a separate 12AU7 adapter, they look to be of great quality, but I'm just not sure it will fix the problem.  This issue is specific to the 6F8G, no problem whatsoever with either 6SN7's or 12AU7's in my amp.



gibosi said:


> Most of us who run 6F8G have encountered the same problem. The 6F8G is quite susceptible to microphonics and extraneous RF noise, and therefore, in the late 1930's, RCA deliberately developed the 6SN7 to be a better 6F8G. So yes, this is an inherent problem when using 6F8Gs. And sometimes it is necessary to roll through several in order to get a quiet one.



From what I am hearing, it doesn't sound like your typical microphonic or tube noise, it is a 60Hz buzz, like a ground loop.  But if it is inherent to the tubes themselves, I suppose I can learn to live with it, or move on.


----------



## gibosi

Ground hum from transformers, electric motors and so forth is an example of extraneous RF noise.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

gibosi said:


> Ground hum from transformers, electric motors and so forth is an example of extraneous RF noise.



Got it, well then I suppose I will roll through my small 6F8G collection and see which have a suitably low buzzing volume.  It isn't an issue with moderate-volume music, only with quiet passages or acoustic.  Thanks for your input.


----------



## leftside

I’ve thrown out a few 6F8G because they were noisy, but if you find quiet ones they are very good. I have a bunch I could part with. Feel free to PM me if interested.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

leftside said:


> I’ve thrown out a few 6F8G because they were noisy, but if you find quiet ones they are very good. I have a bunch I could part with. Feel free to PM me if interested.



Thanks! I will keep that in mind.  Would you say some noise is unavoidable even if it is inaudible at listening volumes?


----------



## leftside

L0rdGwyn said:


> Thanks! I will keep that in mind.  Would you say some noise is unavoidable even if it is inaudible at listening volumes?


With my setups there is no noise whatsoever with no music playing at high listening volumes


----------



## Wes S

I just scored my first STC/Brimar CV1988 black glass, and can't wait to hear the UK sound, from a 6SN7 variant.  I only have American made 6SN7 tubes at the moment, so I am looking forward to switching things up.   I absolutely love the Brimar CV2492, and use them in my Liquid Platinum.  Now, I get to hear the amazingly natural and big sound, in my Lyr 3.  Thanks rosgr63!


----------



## leftside

Wes S said:


> I just scored my first STC/Brimar CV1988 black glass, and can't wait to hear the UK sound, from a 6SN7 variant.  I only have American made 6SN7 tubes at the moment, so I am looking forward to switching things up.   I absolutely love the Brimar CV2492, and use them in my Liquid Platinum.  Now, I get to hear the amazingly natural and big sound, in my Lyr 3.  Thanks rosgr63!


Those are great tubes! Enjoy.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

leftside said:


> With my setups there is no noise whatsoever with no music playing at high listening volumes



I see...well, I am at a loss.   My gut tells me it is a grounding issue, but I lack the expertise to troubleshoot it.  C'est la vie.


----------



## gibosi

L0rdGwyn said:


> I see...well, I am at a loss.   My gut tells me it is a grounding issue, but I lack the expertise to troubleshoot it.  C'est la vie.



It is important to remember that there are significant differences in amps. Some amps are less susceptible to noise than others. And as leftside stated earlier, he has thrown out a number of noisy 68FG and kept the quiet ones. Quiet ones are just that: quiet.

The top cap provides more isolation between the grids of the two triodes in an attempt to reduce RF-induced noise, and the use of a cap also freed up pin 1 to be connected to a metal shield, again to reduce RF-induced noise. But when you install a 68FG into an adapter allowing it to be used in a 6SN7 socket, these noise reducing measures are eliminated. The grids are no longer isolated in the socket and and there is no way to use a metal shield.

So again, it is best to accept the fact that this tube is more susceptible to noise than a 6SN7 and it will often be necessary to roll through several in order to get a quiet one.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that there are significant differences in amps. Some amps are less susceptible to noise than others. And as leftside stated earlier, he has thrown out a number of noisy 68FG and kept the quiet ones. Quiet ones are just that: quiet.
> 
> The top cap provides more isolation between the grids of the two triodes in an attempt to reduce RF-induced noise, and the use of a cap also freed up pin 1 to be connected to a metal shield, again to reduce RF-induced noise. But when you install a 68FG into an adapter allowing it to be used in a 6SN7 socket, these noise reducing measures are eliminated. The grids are no longer isolated in the socket and and there is no way to use a metal shield.
> 
> So again, it is best to accept the fact that this tube is more susceptible to noise than a 6SN7 and it will often be necessary to roll through several in order to get a quiet one.



Thank you for the lesson in 6F8G anatomy.  I have since rolled through all eight of the 6F8G's I have on hand (three Tung Sol, two Sylvania, one Raytheon, National Union, RCA), they are all equally noisy and exhibit the 60Hz buzz.

This would lead me to believe that it is a product of the amp circuitry and noise itself, since all tubes are equally affected.

Would you mind sharing your thoughts on why the noise goes away when I touch a finger to the top of my amp?  Is my body acting as a shield for the tube, and is there a way to possibly emulate this via modification?  I appreciate the help.


----------



## gibosi

Well, I am not an electrical engineer, far from it, but like you I have noticed that touching the amp, and sometimes just placing my hand next to a tube reduces, and sometimes eliminates the hum. And like you, I suspect that my body is somehow acting like some kind of RF shield.

I have thought that maybe the metal tube shields that were commonly used in old radios might be worth a try. But since they are in fact made of metal, I worry that I might accidentally short something out and I have never followed through on this idea...


----------



## Pharmaboy

This thread is pretty big & I have yet to read all of it (though I will). My concern is indirectly related to a recommendation for the best sounding 6SN7 for my application (Woo WA22), but it's a bit more involved than that:

I purchased this amp w/a complete set of NOS tubes installed (Woo's stock tubes have never been taken out of their boxes) 
The 6SN7 pair is taken by a matched pair RCA JAN 6C8G (6SL7 equivalent), which are now in 6SN7 location 
I'm already on the hunt for a legendary Mullard rectifier (not part of this thread, I know).
This amp already sounds quite good as it is--still burning in. But I sense this is a real opportunity for add'l tube rolling to kick it up 1-2 sonic levels...

With that background, can anyone here advise me as to the following issues:

Do I have any sonic benefits ahead of me for reverting that pair of tubes to 6SL7 (the best-sounding ones available)?
If yes, what kind of sonic benefits can I expect?
Thanks in advance for any guidance I receive (I'm pretty inexperienced w/tube rolling, in case it isn't glaringly obvious!).


----------



## leftside

Pharmaboy said:


> This thread is pretty big & I have yet to read all of it (though I will). My concern is indirectly related to a recommendation for the best sounding 6SN7 for my application (Woo WA22), but it's a bit more involved than that:
> 
> I purchased this amp w/a complete set of NOS tubes installed (Woo's stock tubes have never been taken out of their boxes)
> The 6SN7 pair is taken by a matched pair RCA JAN 6C8G (6SL7 equivalent), which are now in 6SN7 location
> ...


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/woo-audio-wa22-amp-owner-unite.826386/


----------



## L0rdGwyn

gibosi said:


> Well, I am not an electrical engineer, far from it, but like you I have noticed that touching the amp, and sometimes just placing my hand next to a tube reduces, and sometimes eliminates the hum. And like you, I suspect that my body is somehow acting like some kind of RF shield.
> 
> I have thought that maybe the metal tube shields that were commonly used in old radios might be worth a try. But since they are in fact made of metal, I worry that I might accidentally short something out and I have never followed through on this idea...



I've taken a look, 6F8G shields are hard to come buy, and probably not worth the risk anyhow, I'm sure I can manage.  Thanks again for your input.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I was scouring new ebay listings the other day and scored a lot of eight 6SN7's for $70.  Six are random GTB's (Tung Sol, Zenith, GE, Sylvania, RCA), really only grabbed it because it included the two tubes below.  

I am very impressed by the RCA VT-231.  I know it is considered to be on the warm/euphonic side, but I paired it with what I consider to be a more bright and forward output tube (Tung Sol 7802) on my Crackatwoa, and the combination is a very balanced, clear presentation.


 

I know this is old news for you 6SN7 vets, I'm just catching up


----------



## Wes S

L0rdGwyn said:


> I was scouring new ebay listings the other day and scored a lot of eight 6SN7's for $70.  Six are random GTB's (Tung Sol, Zenith, GE, Sylvania, RCA), really only grabbed it because it included the two tubes below.
> 
> I am very impressed by the RCA VT-231.  I know it is considered to be on the warm/euphonic side, but I paired it with what I consider to be a more bright and forward output tube (Tung Sol 7802) on my Crackatwoa, and the combination is a very balanced, clear presentation.
> 
> ...


I love the RCA grey glass!  One of my favorite tubes!  I also have a grey glass National Union, but have not heard the black glass version.  The National Union black glass, is on my list to try.


----------



## attmci (Mar 8, 2019)

L0rdGwyn said:


> I've taken a look, 6F8G shields are hard to come buy, and probably not worth the risk anyhow, I'm sure I can manage.  Thanks again for your input.



I have no problem with most of my 6F8Gs. The noise level is *non*-*existent on my amp*.Yes, I am extremely sensitive to tube hum.

I always let the tubes warm up at least 20-30 min.


----------



## attmci

Wes S said:


> I love the RCA grey glass!  One of my favorite tubes!  I also have a grey glass National Union, but have not heard the black glass version.  The National Union black glass, is on my list to try.


Have you tried the smoke glass RCA 6F8G? Very nice tube.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

attmci said:


> I have no problem with most of my 6F8Gs. The noise level is *non*-*existent on my amp*.Yes, I am extremely sensitive to tube hum.
> 
> I always let the tubes warm up at least 20-30 min.



I had sort of a breakthrough on my 6F8G noise problem.  I recently moved into an older home, some of the outlet grounding is questionable methinks.  I used an extension cord to plug my amp into a remote outlet.  Lo and behold, the noise level was significantly decreased! Only audible hum and RF noise was at listening levels that would make your ears bleed.

So final diagnosis: the outlet I have been using is poorly or un-grounded, resulting in a ground loop on top of the intrinsic tube noise.  Either the extension cord is going to become a permanent part of my setup or I'll be calling an electrician


----------



## attmci

L0rdGwyn said:


> I had sort of a breakthrough on my 6F8G noise problem.  I recently moved into an older home, some of the outlet grounding is questionable methinks.  I used an extension cord to plug my amp into a remote outlet.  Lo and behold, the noise level was significantly decreased! Only audible hum and RF noise was at listening levels that would make your ears bleed.
> 
> So final diagnosis: the outlet I have been using is poorly or un-grounded, resulting in a ground loop on top of the intrinsic tube noise.  Either the extension cord is going to become a permanent part of my setup or I'll be calling an electrician


You need this: 

https://www.psaudio.com/directstream-p20-power-plant/


----------



## L0rdGwyn

attmci said:


> You need this:
> 
> https://www.psaudio.com/directstream-p20-power-plant/



$9999.99? I'll take two please.


----------



## attmci

L0rdGwyn said:


> $9999.99? I'll take two please.



Much cheaper than the $122 million F-35B.


----------



## leftside

6SN7 variations. GEC L63 with 6J5 to 6SN7 adapters. Some of the best sounding tubes I have.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Since I seem to have fixed my 6F8G noise issue, time for a revisit and to check my inventory! 

Here is my current stock:

3x Tung Sol VT-99 flat ladder plates
2x Sylvania and 1x Raytheon 6F8G T plates (construction on these is identical, I smell a rebrand...)
1x RCA VT-99 gray glass flat plates
1x National Union 6F8G round plate

Couple questions if someone will humor me:

1. Are there significant sonic differences between the flat ladder and round plate Tung Sol 6F8G?  Seeing mixed messages on this one, wondering if acquiring and round plate is worth the money and effort.

2. One major 6F8G player I am missing is the Ken Rad.  Any consensus on where it falls on the euphonic/transparent scale and performance relative to the other 6F8G's?  Also seeing a couple different plate types.

3. Any other 6F8G's worth a roll that I haven't listed?

Thanks!


----------



## gibosi (Mar 10, 2019)

As in almost every field, there are lumpers and splitters, if you will, regarding the sound of 6F8G and 6SN7 manufactured by the same maker. To be clear I am lumper, and to my ears, there is no significant difference between the 6F8G and 6SN7 manufactured by the same maker except for the NU. And so the KR 6F8G and 6SN7 sound the same to me. However, others claim to be able to hear differences between 6F8G and 6SN7.

With regard to your specific question concerning the TS 6F8G, I happen to have a TS 6SN7GT with the flat ladder plates and I cannot hear any difference between it and the round plate version. But then again, I am a lumper.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

gibosi said:


> As in almost every field, there are lumpers and splitters, if you will, regarding the sound of 6F8G and 6SN7 manufactured by the same maker. To be clear I am lumper, and to my ears, there is no significant difference between the 6F8G and 6SN7 manufactured by the same maker except for the NU. And so the KR 6F8G and 6SN7 sound the same to me. However, others claim to be able to hear differences between 6F8G and 6SN7.
> 
> With regard to your specific question concerning the TS 6F8G, I happen to have a TS 6SN7GT with the flat ladder plates and I cannot hear any difference between it and the round plate version. But then again, I am a lumper.



I like your approach, being a lumper has it's advantages (i.e., saving a bit of cash)

Interesting to see the Tung Sol 6SN7GT with the ladder plates!  They really did just take the 6F8G and cram it in smaller bottle.  I can now sleep easy knowing I have that vintage Tung Sol sound on lockdown 
I'll refer to my Ken Rad VT-231 for the 6F8G sound signature, no need to reach and end up with a duplicate tube.  I can forward the money I would have spent into my next tube and/or headphone obsession, after all.

Much appreciated!

 

My Bottlehead Crackatwoa: Tung Sol VT-99 input, Tung Sol 7802 output, GE 5-star 6005 shunt regulator tubes, loving this setup right now.  A couple oldies but goodies in the back, getting some head time while I wait for my Auteur to return


----------



## leftside

Nice looking amp


----------



## L0rdGwyn

leftside said:


> Nice looking amp



Thanks!  Many hours went into polishing that top plate, people telling me it looks nice made it worth the effort


----------



## whirlwind

L0rdGwyn said:


> Thanks!  Many hours went into polishing that top plate, people telling me it looks nice made it worth the effort



It does look very nice...good job.

I see you are from Cleveland....I am from Coshocton, a couple of hours south of you.
we come to Cleveland a couple times a year, ball games , concerts ect.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

whirlwind said:


> It does look very nice...good job.
> 
> I see you are from Cleveland....I am from Coshocton, a couple of hours south of you.
> we come to Cleveland a couple times a year, ball games , concerts ect.



Fantastic! I spent some time there as a child, a family friend called it home.  There was a vintage toy store downtown I fell in love with at the time.

I try to be an ambassador for Cleveland when I can, city has had a bad reputation nationally for some time, but I think people who visit see that it has a lot to offer (sports, food, arts).

The only thing is lacks is a proper headphone vendor...


----------



## leftside

I can highly recommend the black plate, spade getter, metal base KenRad 6J5GT. And unlike some of the other tubes I recommend, they are cheap  I paid $8 each for them. They just seem to be a little smoother and more refined than the 6SN7 tubes I have - but of course it could just be my tubes.


----------



## Pharmaboy

leftside said:


> I can highly recommend the black plate, spade getter, metal base KenRad 6J5GT. And unlike some of the other tubes I recommend, they are cheap  I paid $8 each for them. They just seem to be a little smoother and more refined than the 6SN7 tubes I have - but of course it could just be my tubes.



Do these go straight in? I don't see an adapter in this picture...


----------



## Pharmaboy

leftside said:


> I can highly recommend the black plate, spade getter, metal base KenRad 6J5GT. And unlike some of the other tubes I recommend, they are cheap  I paid $8 each for them. They just seem to be a little smoother and more refined than the 6SN7 tubes I have - but of course it could just be my tubes.



Oops. Disregard last question. You have them 2-per-adapter here.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

New addition to the tube collection today - 6SN7W metal is old news, but I'm loving it so far.  Very similar in character to its short bottle cousin, but more dynamic.  More players from 6SN7 Mount Olympus coming soon


----------



## Wes S

L0rdGwyn said:


> New addition to the tube collection today - 6SN7W metal is old news, but I'm loving it so far.  Very similar in character to its short bottle cousin, but more dynamic.  More players from 6SN7 Mount Olympus coming soon


That is one tube, I have been interested in.  Nice pic!


----------



## Monsterzero

Wes S said:


> That is one tube, I have been interested in.  Nice pic!



Same,however some arcing issues mentioned at the beginning of this thread(or perhaps the other thread) and $$$ these have been going for have kinda pushed them back on my tube buying priority list.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Monsterzero said:


> Same,however some arcing issues mentioned at the beginning of this thread(or perhaps the other thread) and $$$ these have been going for have kinda pushed them back on my tube buying priority list.



Yes, I paid a pretty penny for it since it is NOS testing, and it is still microphonic - doesn't bother me since I'm not jumping up and down while I listen, but I think they have a history of unreliability, ironically.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Anyone familiar with the later production clear glass Brimar 6SN7GT?  Seems to be a good price here, no test results though:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/173879548937


----------



## m17xr2b

If British tubes say foreign on the glass they're rebrands. That one looks quite russian but could be american as well.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Ah, makes sense, I guess that would explain the price.  Plate structure is different than typical Brimar's as well, I'm just not very familiar with them. Thanks!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

New tube today, Raytheon rebranded Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plate, looks unused.  Side by side internals with another BGRP I have, most importantly, the yellow print matches my 421A


----------



## Velozity

L0rdGwyn said:


> New tube today, Raytheon rebranded Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plate, looks unused.  Side by side internals with another BGRP I have, most importantly, the yellow print 77 my 421A





Nice.  That tube us on my shortlist also.


----------



## Velozity (Apr 29, 2019)

Can you guys help me figure out a couple of tubes I recently acquired? 

First is a Bendix 6SN7GT.  It has an oval top mica with "mouse ear" spacers, gray T-plates with copper posts, and a bottom "D"-getter.  I assume this is made by Tung-Sol?  Any idea of the year?  Is it the 332nd day of 1952?










Second is a Sylvania with green label that was sold to me as a 6SN7GT, but I suspect may actually be a 6SN7W.  The date is 39th week of 1952.  Odd thing is it has _round plates_ and a spiked top mica.  The getter is hard to see but looks like foil.  I tried to capture it in the last photo.  Did Tung-Sol make this for Sylvania?  I haven't heard of a RP from anyone but TS before, but alas I'm new to the tube hobby.  All help is appreciated!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 29, 2019)

The Bendix is a Tung-sol mouse ears.  By all accounts, it is a good sounding tube.  If I had to guess on a date (249), it would be 49th week of 1952.  The 322 is the Tung-sol manufacturer's code.

The Sylvania looks completely unfamiliar and I'm pretty up-to-speed on Sylvie 6SN7s and 7N7s.  Are you sure that's a 6SN7?  Could be a 6N7S which is NOT the same.  I'd make double-triple sure before sticking it in an amp designed for 6SN7!


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Apr 29, 2019)

Velozity said:


> Can you guys help me figure out a couple of tubes I recently acquired?
> 
> First is a Bendix 6SN7GT.  It has an oval top mica with "mouse ear" spacers, gray T-plates with copper posts, and a bottom "D"-getter.  I assume this is made by Tung-Sol?  Any idea of the year?  Is it the 332nd day of 1952?
> 
> ...



Yup, first is definitely a Tung Sol mouse ears, construction is identical to one I have on hand.  322 is the Tung Sol manufacturer code, the final three digits may be indicative of the year and week, but I'm not familiar with how Tung Sol coded that information.  My best guess, 249 may be 49th week of 1952.

Definitely a cool looking rebrand!

Is there an echo in here?  Like @Ripper2860 said, I have never seen a Sylvania 6SN7 with that plate structure, be careful!


----------



## Velozity

Ripper2860 said:


> The Bendix is a Tung-sol mouse ears.  By all accounts, it is a good sounding tube.  If I had to guess on a date (249), it would be 49th week of 1952.  The 322 is the Tung-sol manufacturer's code.
> 
> The Sylvania looks completely unfamiliar and I'm pretty up-to-speed on Sylvie 6SN7s and 7N7s.  Are you sure that's a 6SN7?  Could be a 6N7S which is NOT the same.  I'd make double-triple sure before sticking it in an amp designed for 6SN7!



The eBay ad said 6S*N*7.  I think maybe it's a 6S*L*7 though.  Here's a Google image:


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep -- that looks like it.  Seems it was improperly listed.  Perhaps a refund of some type is in order.


----------



## Velozity

Here's a couple more tubes I received today.  They were part of an estate lot.  I cleaned them up and they look brand new.  Came with original boxes with wadded newspaper inside from 30 years ago.  I don't think they've been touched since then.

Raytheon 6SN7GT:  Bottom foil getter, black T-plates.  26th week of 1953?  Is it identical to a VT-231?


















Sylvania 6SN7GTB:  Top getter, black triangular plates.  Says "C7B" on the dome.  What year is this from?  Also has code "DH" on the base.


----------



## Wes S

Velozity said:


> Here's a couple more tubes I received today.  They were part of an estate lot.  I cleaned them up and they look brand new.  Came with original boxes with wadded newspaper inside from 30 years ago.  I don't think they've been touched since then.
> 
> Raytheon 6SN7GT:  Bottom foil getter, black T-plates.  26th week of 1953?  Is it identical to a VT-231?
> 
> ...


That Raytheon, looks a lot like a Sylvania "Bad Boy".


----------



## Velozity

Wes S said:


> That Raytheon, looks a lot like a Sylvania "Bad Boy".




I was thinking that too (excitedly).  But I wasn't sure if Sylvania rebranded them.


----------



## m17xr2b

280 is the Raytheon code. Sylvania has 312. Even if they rebranded the manufacturer code remained the same.


----------



## gibosi

m17xr2b said:


> Even if they rebranded the manufacturer code remained the same.



If the code was etched in the glass, this would be true. However, in this case Raytheon procured that tube from Sylvania, put a base on it with their name and code, and sold it.


----------



## Velozity

gibosi said:


> If the code was etched in the glass, this would be true. However, in this case Raytheon procured that tube from Sylvania, put a base on it with their name and code, and sold it.




Well that's encouraging.  Looks like a nice gem I found then.


----------



## Wes S

gibosi said:


> If the code was etched in the glass, this would be true. However, in this case Raytheon procured that tube from Sylvania, put a base on it with their name and code, and sold it.


I was gonna say the same thing.


----------



## Velozity

Okay, this is insane.  I've bought from the seller so he's legit, but damn.  $4k?!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...170504?hash=item3406f74fc8:g:jHgAAOSwLeFcP7s-


----------



## Wes S

Velozity said:


> Okay, this is insane.  I've bought from the seller so he's legit, but damn.  $4k?!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...170504?hash=item3406f74fc8:g:jHgAAOSwLeFcP7s-


 Nuts!


----------



## James Shoegazer

Hello I have a general question about tubes and wondering if any tube experts could comment on this:
Around what is the recommended humidity to keep tubes in a drybox? I own a bunch of 6SN7, 6Ak5 and 6DX8


----------



## rosgr63

I would say if you can keep them around 50% they should be fine.
Silica gel will also help.


----------



## VandyMan

I have a matched pair of new in box Shuguang 6SN7s to sell. They are Western Electric replicas with some modern enhancements. They did not fit in my Woo WE5, just a couple mm too wide.

http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/sto...lack-plate-curvy-vacuum-tubes-pair-or-single/


----------



## gibosi

VandyMan said:


> I have a matched pair of new in box Shuguang 6SN7s to sell. They are Western Electric replicas with some modern enhancements. They did not fit in my Woo WE5, just a couple mm too wide.
> 
> http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/sto...lack-plate-curvy-vacuum-tubes-pair-or-single/



Just to be clear... Western Electric never manufactured the 6SN7, so no, these cannot be called WE replicas. And no, the WE421A is not equivalent to the 6SN7 as the Psvane site claims. The WE421A is a souped up 5998, which is in turn a souped up 6AS7, with a 2.4 amp heater as opposed to 0.6 amp for the 6SN7.

https://www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/421A.pdf

Since they are calling these "WE6SN7Plus", I have to assume that they are equivalent to the 6SN7 and they have 0.6 amp heaters, not 2.4 amp heaters. But unfortunately, I can't find a datasheet on their site.


----------



## VandyMan (Jun 14, 2019)

I don't know all that much about the subject. Shuguang calls them replicas; sorry if I repeated something that was not correct. I think the PSVane website I linked has an honest description:

"Well, seems ‘WE replica’ has been a theme for tube manufacturers from China. *But this one is not an exact replica of Western Electric 421A* (equivalent to 6SN7); instead it is a ‘plus’ version with slightly different structure – for example, getter for absorbing gas is installed on the top of the tube, which result in the majority of the tube glass body is see-through transparent."

If anyone wants them at a big discount, msg me. I thought it would be fun to try, but they did not fit my amp (too wide).


----------



## attmci (Jun 15, 2019)

You must have a WOO WA5 LE amp from WOO Audio?

WE421 is a power tube, and 6sn7 is a driver tube. Totally different structure/spec.


----------



## VandyMan (Jun 15, 2019)

attmci said:


> You must have a WOO WA5 LE amp from WOO Audio?
> 
> WE421 is a power tube, and 6sn7 is a driver tube. Totally different structure/spec.



Are you sure about that? Both PSvane and Shuguang say that the WE6SN7 Plus is: *Western Electric 421A (equivalent to 6SN7)
*
The pin out is exactly the same as my other 6SN7 tubes and it fits in the tube socket without issue. I just can't put both tubes in the amp at the same time because they are just a touch too wide at the center of the tube.


----------



## attmci

VandyMan said:


> Are you sure about that? Both PSvane and Shuguang say that the WE6SN7 Plus is: *Western Electric 421A (equivalent to 6SN7)
> *
> The pin out is exactly the same as my other 6SN7 tubes and it fits in the tube socket without issue. I just can't put both tubes in the amp at the same time because they are just a touch too wide at the center of the tube.



We are pretty sure about that.

I believe the tubes you have are 6SN7s (not WE421A, even the socket will fit both). 

You can buy a couple of socket protectors, and use these tubes in your amp.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-8pin-EL3...591293?hash=item41eb1f9afd:g:l8UAAOSw9elbfLWY


----------



## VandyMan (Jun 15, 2019)

attmci said:


> We are pretty sure about that.
> 
> I believe the tubes you have are 6SN7s (not WE421A, even the socket will fit both).
> 
> ...



The tubes I have are 6SN7s, per Shuguang and the model name. I guess the controversy is about Shuguang's claim that the WE421A (which they say the 'WE6SN7 Plus' is based on) is really a 6SN7 equivalent. I hear what you are saying vs what the manufacture and seller claim. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion of my own.

The problem with using them in my Woo WA5 is that the tubes are a bit wider than typical and the Woo's sockets are close together. Will the socket saver you recommended help with that? From the picture, it looks like it just lifts the tubes up.

I ended up using a matched pair of Psvane CV181-T II. I'm happy with them so far, but I'm letting them break in before really comparing to the stock tubes.


----------



## gibosi

VandyMan said:


> Are you sure about that? Both PSvane and Shuguang say that the WE6SN7 Plus is: *Western Electric 421A (equivalent to 6SN7)*



Again, their site is very misleading. Yes, the pin-out is the same, but the WE421A has a heater that draws 2.4 amps, whereas the 6SN7 has  heater that draws only 0.6 amps. There is no way that these tubes can be considered equivalent. In many OTL's, the WE421A is used as an output tube and the 6SN7 is used as a driver.

As attmci suggests, before selling them, you might want to try socket savers. Since the socket savers will raise them up an inch or so, this just might allow them to fit in your amp without touching the other tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 15, 2019)

Shu-yuang also states their 'Treasure Series are CV-181, which is incorrect.  CV181s have a much higher heater current requirement than 6SN7 and true CV181s would damage many 6SN7-based amps.  I don't know why they do that, it just confuses folks to the point where Grant Fidelity even has to clarify that they are actually 6SN7s and not CV181s.  Psvane does the same thing marketing their 6SN7 treasure as CV181 TII.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Just won a tube package online auction for ¥1,100 (~$10 USD), which includes this:


 

Seller had no means to test for operation.  If it works, it will be the best deal I have gotten in my tube life.


----------



## MasonStorm

Greetings all,

Thank you for all of your informative posts.  I'm building a modest collection of 6SN7 and related tubes as drivers in my setup, and hope to be able to contribute to this forum soon.

Recently, I've been looking into getting a better Renter's Insurance policy, one that will cover all of the expensive audio gear, and ran into the fact that old-stock vacuum tubes fall into a different category, such as "collectibles" or "antiques" (as compared to current-production tubes, which could simply be repurchased at market value in the event of a loss).  State Farm wants me to have an appraiser declare a value for all of my old-stock tubes, but I've never heard of an appraiser doing such a thing with vacuum tubes.  I had thought that my receipts for whatever I paid for them (AudiogoN, Brent Jessee, eBay etc.) would have to serve, but State Farm may not accept that.  Does anyone have any advice/experience/input on insuring old tubes (and/or expensive electronics as a whole)?  Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong thread, but of all the vacuum tube threads from all of the online organizations that I frequent, this is the foremost one!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Nabbed a NOS Fivre 6SN7GT brown base black plates from eBay, got it for a song, $30 with shipping!  This is a nice tube.  Listening in the Crackatwoa, Fivre 6SN7GT in, Tung Sol 7802 out, Telefunken 6005 shunt regulator tubes.


----------



## Monsterzero

L0rdGwyn said:


> Nabbed a NOS Fivre 6SN7GT brown base black plates from eBay, got it for a song, $30 with shipping!  This is a nice tube.  Listening in the Crackatwoa, Fivre 6SN7GT in, Tung Sol 7802 out, Telefunken 6005 shunt regulator tubes.



Off topic question:

Have you ever compared the sonic differences of the 7802s to the TS 6080s?


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> Nabbed a NOS Fivre 6SN7GT brown base black plates from eBay, got it for a song, $30 with shipping!  This is a nice tube.  Listening in the Crackatwoa, Fivre 6SN7GT in, Tung Sol 7802 out, Telefunken 6005 shunt regulator tubes.



Very nice shining chrome plate, buddy! 

Just wondering what paint you used (I don't remember seeing any chrome paint when I was buying Rust-Oleum for my Crack)? Do you need to sand the painting to make it mirror-like?

Also, a little off-topic: what's the improvement did you experience from Crack w/ speedball to Crackatwoa? Is it huge or subtle?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> Very nice shining chrome plate, buddy!
> 
> Just wondering what paint you used (I don't remember seeing any chrome paint when I was buying Rust-Oleum for my Crack)? Do you need to sand the painting to make it mirror-like?
> 
> Also, a little off-topic: what's the improvement did you experience from Crack w/ speedball to Crackatwoa? Is it huge or subtle?



Hi my friend - I wish I could say there was a paint that would give you that finish, but unfortunately I don't think there is.  I sanded and polished the aluminum plate that comes with the kit to a mirror finish, and let me tell you, it was no easy task.  If I were to do it again, I would probably look into getting the top plate chromed at a shop, other builders have done so.

As far as the difference between the Crack + SB and the Crackatwoa, what I recall is hearing better bass definition, wider soundstage and resolution from the Crackatwoa.  I would hesitate to say the difference is "massive" since I have not AB'd the two amps (I sold the BHC+SB before I had the Crackatwoa completed to do a direct comparison), but I would also not call it subtle, somewhere in between.


----------



## cddc

Wow....that's a great idea to sand down the aluminum plate to a mirror finish. I thought you had used some chrome paint, because I saw some BHC fellow here used some chrome paint and sanded it down multiple times using different grades of sandpapers some years ago. The Crack thread is so long that I can't find the process anymore. Either way I believe it takes great effort to achieve such a shining beautiful finish. 

Thanks a lot for the impression on BHC+SB vs Crackatwoa. It's reasonable to see some improvement with better power supply. Man, how I wish Bottlehead could design a 2A3/300B or even 845 headphone amp kit, which would make a completely different league. But it seems PB is not interested in the idea at all.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> Wow....that's a great idea to sand down the aluminum plate to a mirror finish. I thought you had used some chrome paint, because I saw some BHC fellow here used some chrome paint and sanded it down multiple times using different grades of sandpapers some years ago. The Crack thread is so long that I can't find the process anymore. Either way I believe it takes great effort to achieve such a shining beautiful finish.
> 
> Thanks a lot for the impression on BHC+SB vs Crackatwoa. It's reasonable to see some improvement with better power supply. Man, how I wish Bottlehead could design a 2A3/300B or even 845 headphone amp kit, which would make a completely different league. But it seems PB is not interested in the idea at all.



If you wanted to do the work, you could possibly ask them how the Kaiju circuit could be altered to run headphones.


----------



## cddc (Jun 29, 2019)

L0rdGwyn said:


> If you wanted to do the work, you could possibly ask them how the Kaiju circuit could be altered to run headphones.




Sure, but Kaiju is designed for speakers, it has no headphone jacks, not to mention it could have noises when applied to headphone without changes in design.

I just don't understand why people use 2A3 or 300B to drive speakers, it seems to me that they cannot provide enough juice to drive large speakers. Personally I'd rather buy some SS amps with huge power reserves for speakers. IMHO 2A3 and 300B are more suitable to drive headphones. Lots of high-end headphone amps use 2A3, 300B, or even 845 - WA5, WA33, ECBA, DNA Stratus, Manley Neo-classic, Viva Egoista 845, just name a few. These 2A3/300B/845 amps are mainly designed for headphones, but can also be used to drive some *small* bookshelf speakers, not the other way around.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

L0rdGwyn said:


> Just won a tube package online auction for ¥1,100 (~$10 USD), which includes this:
> 
> 
> 
> Seller had no means to test for operation.  If it works, it will be the best deal I have gotten in my tube life.



I am happy to report....IT WORKS!  Really looks NOS, sounds great, slightly microphonic but seems to go away after warm up.  Sylvania 6SN7W metal base for basically $2, I will take it


----------



## whirlwind

L0rdGwyn said:


> I am happy to report....IT WORKS!  Really looks NOS, sounds great, slightly microphonic but seems to go away after warm up.  Sylvania 6SN7W metal base for basically $2, I will take it



Great find....sometimes that is the way micophonics seem to work....give the tube 30 minutes and it settles in...again...great find


----------



## L0rdGwyn

whirlwind said:


> Great find....sometimes that is the way micophonics seem to work....give the tube 30 minutes and it settles in...again...great find



Thanks!  I have a few other tubes that are the same, microphonic for maybe 5 minutes or so, then you are good to go.  I think these 6SN7Ws are prone to it, funny considering how rugged they look.


----------



## cddc

you got luck....auctions are tricky...lol


----------



## attmci

L0rdGwyn said:


> I am happy to report....IT WORKS!  Really looks NOS, sounds great, slightly microphonic but seems to go away after warm up.  Sylvania 6SN7W metal base for basically $2, I will take it


¥1,100 (~$10 USD)?Japanese dollar?

Congrats!


----------



## cddc

why yens....you bought them from eBay.jp?


----------



## MasonStorm

I received an Amplitrex AT1000 Tube Tester and have been testing as much of my collection as possible, recently turning to the 6SN7's.  A recently-acquired pair of Brimars tested good for emissions, but too high for gas: 0.2mA.  The Amplitrex manual suggests that anything more than 0.1mA in a small signal tube will likely lead to problems in the application circuit.  Are these tubes likely to harm my amp?


----------



## leftside

MasonStorm said:


> I received an Amplitrex AT1000 Tube Tester and have been testing as much of my collection as possible, recently turning to the 6SN7's.  A recently-acquired pair of Brimars tested good for emissions, but too high for gas: 0.2mA.  The Amplitrex manual suggests that anything more than 0.1mA in a small signal tube will likely lead to problems in the application circuit.  Are these tubes likely to harm my amp?


Meant to be the best tube tester out there. A couple of my friends swear by them. Can't answer your question I'm afraid, but interested in your feedback the more you use the tester.


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> New addition to the tube collection today - 6SN7W metal is old news, but I'm loving it so far.  Very similar in character to its short bottle cousin, but more dynamic.  More players from 6SN7 Mount Olympus coming soon




Nice picture, buddy! 

May I ask: how is the bass performance on your 5998 vs 7236 when paired with HD800? 

I stuck a RCA 6AS7G in my Crack, and was quite disappointed with its weak bass on HD800. A lot of people prefer 5998 on their HD650s, but I think HD650 has a strong bass performance itself and needs no bass boost. HD800 on the other hand is relatively weak in the bass department and need some compensation in the area. So far I'm happy with my 7236 to pair with HD800, but not sure if switching to a 5998 will boost or reduce the bass on HD800 (vs. 7236).


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jul 17, 2019)

cddc said:


> Nice picture, buddy!
> 
> May I ask: how is the bass performance on your 5998 vs 7236 when paired with HD800?
> 
> I stuck a RCA 6AS7G in my Crack, and was quite disappointed with its weak bass on HD800. A lot of people prefer 5998 on their HD650s, but I think HD650 has a strong bass performance itself and needs no bass boost. HD800 on the other hand is relatively weak in the bass department and need some compensation in the area. So far I'm happy with my 7236 to pair with HD800, but not sure if switching to a 5998 will boost or reduce the bass on HD800 (vs. 7236).



Hey cddc - unfortunately, I don't own the HD800 anymore or a 7236, or else I would give them a quick listen and let you know.  From memory, I think the 7236 and 5998 are pretty similar when it comes to perceived frequency response.  I have not known the 5998 to be a warm tube with accentuated bass, I would say most consider it to be neutral with a slightly accentuated top end.  What you will get going from a 7236 to a 5998 is better bass _articulation_, and a wider soundstage.  The 5998 is one of the lowest distortion output tubes you can put in the Crack and gives some of the best technical performance.  In my opinion, unless you are on a strict budget, it is worth trying the 5998.

May I ask what driver tube you are using?  I mostly roll 6SN7s, although I do have some 12AU7, 6F8G, and 12BH7s I have used.  My experience rolling tubes in the Crack is the driver is a bit more responsible for the character of the sound, while the output has more influence on the technicalities (soundstage, imaging, resolution).  Obviously they both contribute, but not equally in my opinion.  A warmer driver tube might help the HD800s low end, and a 5998 would get you better technical performance, if you think you want it!  Hope that helps.


----------



## cddc (Sep 8, 2019)

Super, thanks a lot.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> Great, thank you very much for the detailed explanation and suggestion, L0rdGwyn!
> 
> 5998 does have a lot of cool technicalities, and lots of people love it. But the thing that holds me off is the pairing and synergy. I find lots of people love 5998 with their HD650s. And HD650 and HD800 are quite different in the bass department. I saw the HD650 and HD800 and Crack-atwoa in your picture, and thought we have the same headphones and similar amps (mine is Crack w/ SB) and your opinion would solve the pairing and synergy puzzle for me. Too bad you don't own HD800 and 7236 anymore. But your opinion is still invaluable to me, much appreciate it!
> 
> ...



Glad to help, hopefully someone can give you a more direct comparison.  Perhaps ask on the BHC thread.  The RCA VT-231 gray glass is definitely characterized as a warm-leaning tube, maybe it will solve your issue


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> Glad to help, hopefully someone can give you a more direct comparison.  Perhaps ask on the BHC thread.  The RCA VT-231 gray glass is definitely characterized as a warm-leaning tube, maybe it will solve your issue



Yep, can't wait to hear the RCA VT231


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Another 6SN7 you might like cddc is the Ken-Rad VT-231, well known for its bass.


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> Another 6SN7 you might like cddc is the Ken-Rad VT-231, well known for its bass.



Great, thanks a lot for the recommendation!


----------



## cddc

timb5881 said:


>



So it this one a Tung Sol 6SN7 or a rebrander, @gibosi @attmci?

I do see angled black T-plates in *Tungsol 6SN7WGT *from the like below:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## cddc

My Sylvania 6SN7 also has this angled black T-plates, but mine has more headroom between the top mica and glass, and top getter instead of side getter.


----------



## whirlwind

@cddc  if you are looking for a good Tung Sol 6SN7 tube, look for one with black glass and round plates.

Like this....this is a Tung sol black glass with round plates and oval mica, rebranded by RCA.....this is the best sounding Tung Sol 6SN7 tube in my opinion
They can be quite pricey unless you can find a rebranded one for less like this one.


  

I am not sure what amp you own, if your amp can use 12SN7 tubes you will probably be able to find one much cheaper.
Do not get a 12SN7 tube unless you are positive your amp can use them.

The RCA pictured above is actually a 12SN7 tube.....but the construction is identical to the 6SN7


----------



## cddc (Jul 24, 2019)

Thanks a lot for the recommendations, @*whirlwind!
*
 I have an RCA VT-231 with smoke glass en route to me. Will see how it performs.

My amp only takes 6.3V heater tubes, so I'm afraid 12SN7 won't work in my amp. But I will keep an eye open on these Tung Sol or RCA black glass tubes with internal structure similar to the one you recommended.


----------



## ken6217

This may be a dumb question, but then again in  this hobby commonsense often goes out the window.  

 Are there any advantages of tube savers, and does it alter the sound at all?


----------



## Robert Padgett

ken6217 said:


> This may be a dumb question, but then again in  this hobby commonsense often goes out the window.
> 
> Are there any advantages of tube savers, and does it alter the sound at all?


If you mean socket savers---they elevate the tube up out of the chassis, which may provide better cooling. They are straight wire connection from the socket to pin, so it should affect the sound at all.


----------



## ken6217

Robert Padgett said:


> If you mean socket savers---they elevate the tube up out of the chassis, which may provide better cooling. They are straight wire connection from the socket to pin, so it should affect the sound at all.



Yes, that's what I mean. Th reason I'm asking is because I was going to buy a nice sounding pair of Mullard ECC32 and the guy emailed to me the following:

"The tube on the left had the pin broken off when I received the tube so I put on a replacement pin. The tube on the right had a pin that slightly wobbled and since this was my tube I reinforced it with epoxy which I really didn't need to do but I'm a perfectionist."

I have purchased tubes from him before and I trust him, but I was worried what if the pin broke off and got lodged in the socket. At least if it did it would do so in the socket saver and not in my amp.

Any opinions on the pin situation itself?

Thanks a lot.


----------



## Robert Padgett (Jul 23, 2019)

ken6217 said:


> Yes, that's what I mean. Th reason I'm asking is because I was going to buy a nice sounding pair of Mullard ECC32 and the guy emailed to me the following:
> 
> "The tube on the left had the pin broken off when I received the tube so I put on a replacement pin. The tube on the right had a pin that slightly wobbled and since this was my tube I reinforced it with epoxy which I really didn't need to do but I'm a perfectionist."
> 
> ...



If he is referring to the alignment pin in the center, then it is not even necessary, so whether he glued on a new one or epoxy, it should not matter, it only serves to get the actual pins into the proper sockets. Now if he is talking about pins, I am only familiar with reflowing solder in the pins, I have no knowledge about repairing pins.

www.tubedepot.com/products/octal-tube-keyway-replacement


----------



## Slade01

ken6217 said:


> Yes, that's what I mean. Th reason I'm asking is because I was going to buy a nice sounding pair of Mullard ECC32 and the guy emailed to me the following:
> 
> "The tube on the left had the pin broken off when I received the tube so I put on a replacement pin. The tube on the right had a pin that slightly wobbled and since this was my tube I reinforced it with epoxy which I really didn't need to do but I'm a perfectionist."
> 
> ...



I think your reasoning makes sense in that if the pin breaks, it will be left in the socket saver if you use one, instead of the actual socket.  It's probably worth the 5-10 bucks to use a saver as insurance.  I've used a socket saver before on my amp, and it never affected the sound in any way (at least to my ears).


----------



## ken6217

Thanks for the replies.

Out of curiosity, how much does heat play? Does heat affect the sound, the longevity of the tube, or both?


----------



## cddc

Can any expert here let me know how to tell RCA VT-231 grey glass apart from RCA 6SN7GT grey glass?  And if there is any sonic difference?


----------



## whirlwind

cddc said:


> Can any expert here let me know how to tell RCA VT-231 grey glass apart from RCA 6SN7GT grey glass?  And if there is any sonic difference?



Same tube, the VT-231 was made for the military, so chances are it was made a little more rugged so to speak. If tubes are the same price, then I would lean toward the military grade tube.


----------



## cddc

@whirlwind, thanks a lot.

They do look very similar to me, and I am having hard time to tell them apart. 

I know JAN tubes are basically the same as non-JAN tubes except being tested for military use...not too sure about VT-231. RCA VT-231 grey glass seems to have a higher price tag than RCA 6SN7GB grey glass.


----------



## whirlwind

cddc said:


> @whirlwind, thanks a lot.
> 
> They do look very similar to me, and I am having hard time to tell them apart.
> 
> I know JAN tubes are basically the same as non-JAN tubes except being tested for military use...not too sure about VT-231. RCA VT-231 grey glass seems to have a higher price tag than RCA 6SN7GB grey glass.



VT-231 tubes are the older tubes, should all be 1945 or earlier I believe.
I can't be positive that the RCA GT tube has the exact same construction as the VT-231

The VT-231 grey glass are nice tubes...good bass are are warm sounding...much warmer than say a Sylvania tube from the same time.


----------



## cddc

whirlwind said:


> VT-231 tubes are the older tubes, should all be 1945 or earlier I believe.
> I can't be positive that the RCA GT tube has the exact same construction as the VT-231
> 
> The VT-231 grey glass are nice tubes...good bass are are warm sounding...much warmer than say a Sylvania tube from the same time.




Cool, I heard the same thing from L0rdGwyn, he also recommended Ken-Rad VT-231 for good bass.

I think I will like these warm tubes with good deep tight bass, which can compensate the shortfalls of HD800.


----------



## whirlwind (Jul 24, 2019)

cddc said:


> Cool, I heard the same thing from L0rdGwyn, he also recommended Ken-Rad VT-231 for good bass.
> 
> I think I will like these warm tubes with good deep tight bass, which can compensate the shortfalls of HD800.



Great , enjoy.

The Ken Rad  VT-231 has even better bass...clear glass sounds pretty much the same as black glass as long as you get the ones with staggered plates.


----------



## cddc

whirlwind said:


> Great , enjoy.
> 
> The Ken Rad  VT-231 has even better bass...clear glass sounds pretty much the same as black glass as long as you get the ones with staggered plates.



Cool, so one more vote on Ken-Rad for more bass. 

I remember @Skylab  said K-R VT-231 has really strong bass but muddy. Not sure if RCA VT-231 is better overall than K-R VT-231?


----------



## whirlwind

cddc said:


> Cool, so one more vote on Ken-Rad for more bass.
> 
> I remember @Skylab  said K-R VT-231 has really strong bass but muddy. Not sure if RCA VT-231 is better overall than K-R VT-231?



I would say that would be a personal preference type of thing.


----------



## cddc

whirlwind said:


> I would say that would be a personal preference type of thing.



Great! Indeed personal preferences and system synergy play a key role in this tube world


----------



## cddc

whirlwind said:


> Same tube, the VT-231 was made for the military, so chances are it was made a little more rugged so to speak. If tubes are the same price, then I would lean toward the military grade tube.



I did some more research today by comparing the internal construction photos, I would agree with you that RCA VT-231 grey glass and RCA 6SN7GT grey glass should be the same tube.


----------



## Wes S

cddc said:


> Cool, so one more vote on Ken-Rad for more bass.
> 
> I remember @Skylab  said K-R VT-231 has really strong bass but muddy. Not sure if RCA VT-231 is better overall than K-R VT-231?


The KenRad is more forward in the mids to lower treble, than the RCA.  The RCA grey glass, is super warm, and the mids are pushed further back, than the KenRad.  They both have great bass, with the KenRad going deeper, and the RCA with more mid bass bloom.  They both are rolled off up top.  These were my 2 favorite tubes, when I first started using 6SN7.  I have moved on to Brimar as my favorite, but still have a good stash of both KenRad( black and Clear glass) And RCA (grey glass).  I would not say one is better than the other, as they both have their charms.  However, for me the KenRad can be a little bright and harsh in the upper mids, to lower treble.  This may not be an issue for most, but I am super sensitive to that area of the spectrum.  If you want more bass, than go with KenRad, and if you want more warmth overall go with RCA.


----------



## cddc

Wes S said:


> The KenRad is more forward in the mids to lower treble, than the RCA.  The RCA grey glass, is super warm, and the mids are pushed further back, than the KenRad.  They both have great bass, with the KenRad going deeper, and the RCA with more mid bass bloom.  They both are rolled off up top.  These were my 2 favorite tubes, when I first started using 6SN7.  I have moved on to Brimar as my favorite, but still have a good stash of both KenRad( black and Clear glass) And RCA (grey glass).  I would not say one is better than the other, as they both have their charms.  However, for me the KenRad can be a little bright and harsh in the upper mids, to lower treble.  This may not be an issue for most, but I am super sensitive to that area of the spectrum.  If you want more bass, than go with KenRad, and if you want more warmth overall go with RCA.




Super, great review on RCA VT-231 v.s. Ken-Rad VT-231. Thank you very much!

It seems more likely now that RCA VT-231 would be my cup of tea, as bright and harsh upper mids to lower treble pairing with HD800 would likely to hurt my ears too. Glad that I scored 2 RCA VT-231's recently.


----------



## Wes S

cddc said:


> Super, great review on RCA VT-231 v.s. Ken-Rad VT-231. Thank you very much!
> 
> It seems more likely now that RCA VT-231 would be my cup of tea, as bright and harsh upper mids to lower treble pairing with HD800 would likely to hurt my ears too. Glad that I scored 2 RCA VT-231's recently.


Glad it helped!  Just to elaborate on the KenRad, it is a somewhat dark sounding tube overall, and as a result I would often turn up the volume, to get better dynamics and clarity, and that is when those peaks that come through in the upper mids/lower treble, would always cause fatigue after long listening sessions.   The KR is really an interesting tube, in that it can sound dark, with the big bass and rolled off upper treble, and bright at the same time with the upper mids/lower treble peak.  I am sure that in some applications this tube would be killer and that is why I kept my stash.


----------



## cddc

It's indeed very interesting, dark sounding signature normally does not come with harsh lower highs. The HD650 as a good example of dark sounding headphones does not have any harshness in upper registries and is good for long listening sessions. Will see if I can have a listen to Kend-Rad and add it to my stash.


----------



## Wes S

cddc said:


> It's indeed very interesting, dark sounding signature normally does not come with harsh lower highs. The HD650 as a good example of dark sounding headphones does not have any harshness in upper registries and is good for long listening sessions. Will see if I can have a listen to Kend-Rad and add it to my stash.


I own a pair of HD 650 and agree.


----------



## Skylab

cddc said:


> Cool, so one more vote on Ken-Rad for more bass.
> 
> I remember @Skylab  said K-R VT-231 has really strong bass but muddy. Not sure if RCA VT-231 is better overall than K-R VT-231?



I certainly preferred the RCA over the Ken-Rad, yes...but...



whirlwind said:


> I would say that would be a personal preference type of thing.



Beyond a doubt.


----------



## cddc (Jul 25, 2019)

Are these Tung Sol 6SN7GTB tubes?

Well, the print on base says Tung Sol, and the print on glass also looks like Tung Sol, however their flat ladder plates and side D-getters and micas are quite similar to GE 6SN7GTBs'.

Most Tung Sol 6SN7GTB's I have seen come with T-plates, the flat ladder plates make me think they are likely rebranded GE's (or RCA's...)?

Can any guru here confirm that Tung Sol 6SN7GTBs can have flat ladder plates, or the ones below are just rebranded non-Tung Sol 6SN7GTB tubes? @Skylab , @Xcalibur255 , @rosgr63, @whirlwind, @Oskari


----------



## ken6217

I just purchased a pair of Mullard ECC32 tubes. I have always run 6SN7's and am not that familiar with the structure of the ECC32 tubes. In looking at the pair. they do not look the same. One tube has two red wires near the baee, and the other tube doesn't. 

Can someone comment on this and let me know what you think.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## leftside

ken6217 said:


> I just purchased a pair of Mullard ECC32 tubes. I have always run 6SN7's and am not that familiar with the structure of the ECC32 tubes. In looking at the pair. they do not look the same. One tube has two red wires near the baee, and the other tube doesn't.
> 
> Can someone comment on this and let me know what you think.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


There are many different variations with these tubes. Getters, micas, spacers, black/brown bases, grey/black plates - and in your case black vs red wires. Any other differences? If it's just red vs black wires that are the differences, then you've got yourself a very similar pair of tubes (construction wise).


----------



## cddc

ken6217 said:


> I just purchased a pair of Mullard ECC32 tubes. I have always run 6SN7's and am not that familiar with the structure of the ECC32 tubes. In looking at the pair. they do not look the same. One tube has two red wires near the baee, and the other tube doesn't.
> 
> Can someone comment on this and let me know what you think.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



I think what you saw were just 2 pairs of braided shield sleeves in different colors - one in red and one in black.


----------



## Wes S

cddc said:


> I think what you saw were just 2 pairs of braided shield sleeves in different colors - one in red and one in black.


That's what it looks like to me, as well.


----------



## ken6217

Thanks for both replies. I didn't not notice the tube without the red wire had a black braided wire. So, both are the same except for the wire color.


----------



## Ripper2860

FYI -- CV181 and 6SN7 are not 100% inter-changeable.  The CV-181 has a 50% higher heater current draw (.96) than 6SN7 (.6).  If using these in a 6SN7-based amplifier, be sure to verify it has the ability to deliver the additional current w/o incident.


----------



## ken6217

I'm aware. It says in the manual that ECC32 tubes are ok for my amp.


----------



## Robert Padgett

"On average, the ECC32 / CV181 has a heater current that’s 350 milliamps higher than a 6SN7 tube – i.e. 600-mA versus 900-mA. The ECC32 has a slightly higher mu of 32 versus the 6SN7’s 20 and the ECC32 has a maximum plate voltage rating of 300-VDC while the 6SN7 has a higher maximum plate voltage rating of 450-VDC. On average, the plate resistance of the ECC32 at 14,000-ohms is twice that of the 6SN7’s 7,000-ohms, so it is not advisable to use high-capacitance interconnects / cables with ECC32 / CV181 vacuum tube equipped preamplifiers or it will result in a dark, murky sound. So the use of a Monster Cable M850i is out of the question."  -- http://boneshifi.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-ecc32-cv181-most-musical.html


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> FYI -- CV181 and 6SN7 are not 100% inter-changeable.  The CV-181 has a 50% higher heater current draw (.96) than 6SN7 (.6).  If using these in a 6SN7-based amplifier, be sure to verify it has the ability to deliver the additional current w/o incident.


Helpful to know, thanks @Ripper2860 . I think my Feliks-Audio Elise can't exceed ~ 6.5A for all tubes combined. Does the heater current draw also vary by brand and specific type of CV181? For example, it appears the PSVane CV 181Tdraws 0.6 if I am reading the specifications correctly.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 14, 2019)

CV181s are all the same electrical specifications.  Real CV181s are .96 heater current draw or they are either defective or not a CV181.  Now where it gets confusing is with the folks at PSvane and Shu-guang -- they went and threw a monkey-wrench into the works by marketing a line of "CV181" tubes that are not CV181s .  Their CV-181 series tubes are NOT CV-181s at all, but are actually 6SN7s with .6 heater current draw.  Why their marketing department decided to do that is beyond me.  Even Grant HiFi had to put out a disclaimer that the PSvane CV181s they sell are NOT CV181s but are actually 6SN7 tubes, due to concerns with heater current draw specs being different between the two.

Hope this helps.


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> CV181s are all the same electrical specifications.  Real CV181s are .96 heater current draw or they are either defective or not a CV181.  Now where it gets confusing is with the folks at PSvane and Shu-guang -- they went and threw a monkey-wrench into the works by marketing a line of "CV181" tubes that are not CV181s .  Their CV-181 series tubes are NOT CV-181s at all, but are actually 6SN7s with .6 heater current draw.  Why their marketing department decided to do that is beyond me.  Even Grant HiFi had to put out a disclaimer that the PSvane CV181s they sell are NOT CV181s but are actually 6SN7 tubes, due to concerns with heater current draw specs being different between the two.
> 
> Hope this helps.


It does, yes. Thanks @Ripper2860 for helping a relative "tubey - newbie" make sense of this complex but endlessly fascinating topic.


----------



## ken6217

I have a Cayin 300B amp that takes two 6SN7 driver tubes. The manual says that it also takes ECC32 tubes. I tried a pair of unused NOS Mullard ECC32 tubes tonight, and the sound seems to have some distortion. I know the tubes need breaking in but I hadn't heard this type of sound on new tubes before.  Seems more prevalent in the bass.  Could it be bad tubes, or is it break in? I’ve certainly had new tubes in my amp before but didn’t have this type of  experience. Any ideas? Thanks.


----------



## m17xr2b

Could be dirty pins, try to clean them with some sandpaper or deoxit.

Never had distortion with ECC32 and 300B on the WA5 or any other tube amp. Could be your source is too hot as these have higher amplification. Try with something else like a phone see if it distorts.


----------



## ken6217

Thanks for the reply. I have Deoxit. I’ll give it a try. 

When you say the source could be hot, what exactly did you mean? I’m using the amp as a headphone amplifier.


----------



## ken6217

By the way, will I damage the amp by using this while I’m testing to see if I can turn it around?


----------



## m17xr2b (Aug 20, 2019)

Standard DACs should have 2V output from single ended and I think 4V for balanced. Some have 3V or even 4V output out of single ended and 6V for balanced, couple that with a higher gain input tube biased at the edge and it can distort depending on the operating point of the amplifier

Quick and not entirely accurate info:

Tubes are negativity biased on input. For example you can have -3V grid and couple that with a +2V input the tube never sees positive voltage on the grid(which would be bad).
I think gain also has an impact, ECC32 has 32 gain where 6SN7 has 20ish.

Say you have -3V grid with +4V input from a hot dac(hot meaning it has higher voltage that it should be), now you are overdriving the tube and can cause distortion.

What's your dac?

Shouldn't cause any harm, unless the tubes are bad are are near failure.


----------



## ken6217

m17xr2b said:


> Standard DACs should have 2V output from single ended and I think 4V for balanced. Some have 3V or even 4V output out of single ended and 6V for balanced, couple that with a higher gain input tube biased at the edge and it can distort depending on the operating point of the amplifier
> 
> Quick and not entirely accurate info:
> 
> ...



The DAC is a Metrum Pavane. 4V output.


----------



## m17xr2b

I've got the Pavane as well, it's not the cause unless there's some weird incompatibility between it and you amp which I doubt. Still, try another source to be sure.


----------



## LoryWiv

In addition to looking into NOS tubes, was considering the new production Psvane CV-181TII as drivers for my Feliks-Audio Elise and noted another new production option at about same cost: Northern Electric 6SN7. Does anyone have experience with one or both of these? Comparisons would be especially helpful. Thanks!


----------



## TheSnafu

LoryWiv said:


> In addition to looking into NOS tubes, was considering the new production Psvane CV-181TII as drivers for my Feliks-Audio Elise and noted another new production option at about same cost: Northern Electric 6SN7. Does anyone have experience with one or both of these? Comparisons would be especially helpful. Thanks!



Something :

https://www.head-fi.org/search/34564311/?q=Psvane+CV-181&t=post&o=relevance&c[thread]=479031


----------



## LoryWiv

TheSnafu said:


> Something :
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/search/34564311/?q=Psvane+CV-181&t=post&o=relevance&c[thread]=479031


Thanks @TheSnafu!


----------



## LoryWiv

Wondering if anyone has tried the Sylvania made Baldwin organ 6SN7 vintage tubes. They are not hard to source and fairly inexpensive. The concept that they were purpose-made for a musical instrument raises my hopes that they will perform well in my Felik Audio Elise as drivers. I realize, however, that may not necessarily be true so if anyone's used them as a driver tube, I'd really appreciate your impressions.


----------



## attmci

LoryWiv said:


> Wondering if anyone has tried the Sylvania made Baldwin organ 6SN7 vintage tubes. They are not hard to source and fairly inexpensive. The concept that they were purpose-made for a musical instrument raises my hopes that they will perform well in my Felik Audio Elise as drivers. I realize, however, that may not necessarily be true so if anyone's used them as a driver tube, I'd really appreciate your impressions.


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/page-13


----------



## LoryWiv

attmci said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/page-13


Thank you, @attmci. Great resource thread  I'd not seen before. By chance have you heard the Baldwins to offer an impression. Anyway? thanks for the link!


----------



## MasonStorm

When using any of those two-other-tubes-in-a-converter-to-a-single-6SN7 contraptions (I have 6J5G's, 7193's and 76's with the appropriate two-to-one adapters from eBay merchants), is it more important to insert two tubes that are closely matched for plate current, or for transconductance?  Which measurement takes precedence?


----------



## cddc

ken6217 said:


> I have a Cayin 300B amp that takes two 6SN7 driver tubes. The manual says that it also takes ECC32 tubes. I tried a pair of unused NOS Mullard ECC32 tubes tonight, and the sound seems to have some distortion. I know the tubes need breaking in but I hadn't heard this type of sound on new tubes before.  Seems more prevalent in the bass.  Could it be bad tubes, or is it break in? I’ve certainly had new tubes in my amp before but didn’t have this type of  experience. Any ideas? Thanks.



ECC32 is NOT a 6SN7 tube!

If memory serves, ECC32 runs on 0.9A heater current and 6SN7 only 0.6A. So ECC32 draws much more heater current - make sure if you amp transformer can handle the extra current draw before sticking any ECC32 tube into your 6SN7 amp, or else your amp transformer will be fried.

That being said, my amp has the extra capacity, welcome to send them over


----------



## ken6217

cddc said:


> ECC32 is NOT a 6SN7 tube!
> 
> If memory serves, ECC32 runs on 0.9A heater current and 6SN7 only 0.6A. So ECC32 draws much more heater current - make sure if you amp transformer can handle the extra current draw before sticking any ECC32 tube into your 6SN7 amp, or else your amp transformer will be fried.
> 
> That being said, my amp has the extra capacity, welcome to send them over



I understand that. The amp manufacturer said it does take ECC32 tubes. 

I sent them back.


----------



## cddc

ken6217 said:


> I understand that. The amp manufacturer said it does take ECC32 tubes.
> 
> I sent them back.



Yes, then again ECC32 is not 6SN7. Other than extra current draw, it has higher gain than 6SN7, which could lead to different bias to 300B and result in a totally different sound.


----------



## ken6217

cddc said:


> Yes, then again ECC32 is not 6SN7. Other than extra current draw, it has higher gain than 6SN7, which could lead to different bias to 300B and result in a totally different sound.



That was the idea. 

Oh well, I guess I’m stuck with my lowly TS black glass round plate 6SN7GT


----------



## MasonStorm

In the spirit of people being warned about the higher current draw of the ECC32 (0.95A), I wanted to warn everyone about the EVEN HIGHER current draw of the BL63/VR102 tubes.  I read earlier in this forum that a few people have been using them in place of a 6SN7, so a few months ago I found some for sale on eBay from the seller totempole_999 in India, and by tubeflex5688 in Taiwan.  (Note that both of them are still listing this tube as a 6SN7 equivalent.)  I used them intermittently in my Woo WA-234's:  never particularly taken with them, and over time, they actually sounded worse.  Only yesterday, I read online at http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0300.htm that these tubes actually have a heater current of 1.3A!!!!!  Woo told me that the 0.95A ECC32 was okay to use, but it's hard for me to believe that a 1.3A tube is okay.  Hope none of us have damaged our amps (shortened their useful life) by using VR102's


----------



## ken6217

I decided to sell my tube amp. I have a couple of matched pairs of NOS Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plates, and Brimar CV1988 brown base. All have low hours and test strong. If anyone is interested, PM me.


----------



## MarkusTubesNow

I'd like to understand how matching affects the sound & performance of dual triodes. 6SN7s are of particular interest, but I suppose it could apply to any dual triode. There are several aspects to this question - probably closely related, but maybe not:

1. If a tube is not closely matched - let's say for the sake of discussion that the two triodes are within about 20% of each other, under what conditions will the difference be audible? How will it impact the sound? Frequency response? Extension at the extremes? Imaging? Noise?
2. In an exchange of messages on a different forum someone told me that the tube matching wouldn't really make a difference - that is, the tubes he was selling were "close enough for all practical purposes". Is this just an attempt to pass off poorly matched tubes? Or is it true?


----------



## Makiah S

MarkusTubesNow said:


> I'd like to understand how matching affects the sound & performance of dual triodes. 6SN7s are of particular interest, but I suppose it could apply to any dual triode. There are several aspects to this question - probably closely related, but maybe not:
> 
> 1. If a tube is not closely matched - let's say for the sake of discussion that the two triodes are within about 20% of each other, under what conditions will the difference be audible? How will it impact the sound? Frequency response? Extension at the extremes? Imaging? Noise?
> 2. In an exchange of messages on a different forum someone told me that the tube matching wouldn't really make a difference - that is, the tubes he was selling were "close enough for all practical purposes". Is this just an attempt to pass off poorly matched tubes? Or is it true?



Ehh I've always found with an amp that uses a single Dual Triode tube Imaging get's worse as the match get's worse

Worse as in less precise and cohesive

My understanding is with either Dual Dual Triodes or Dual single Triodes the match is less important?


----------



## cddc

MarkusTubesNow said:


> I'd like to understand how matching affects the sound & performance of dual triodes. 6SN7s are of particular interest, but I suppose it could apply to any dual triode. There are several aspects to this question - probably closely related, but maybe not:
> 
> 1. If a tube is not closely matched - let's say for the sake of discussion that the two triodes are within about 20% of each other, under what conditions will the difference be audible? How will it impact the sound? Frequency response? Extension at the extremes? Imaging? Noise?
> 2. In an exchange of messages on a different forum someone told me that the tube matching wouldn't really make a difference - that is, the tubes he was selling were "close enough for all practical purposes". Is this just an attempt to pass off poorly matched tubes? Or is it true?




In a push-pull amplifier design matching is required. Take a sine wave for example, the push-pull circuit splits the sine wave into 2 parts (the positive half and the negative half), then amplifies each with a different circuit, and puts 2 parts together after amplification to get an amplified sine wave. Now if your tube (6SN7 or whatever) has unmatching sections, you won't get an amplified sine wave anymore because the positive half and negative half are amplified at different magnitudes. So it creates distortion.

However, in a single-ended "class-A" amplifier, matching is not so important. Difference in a tube's left/right sections might affect the loudness of sound in your left/right channels, but it won't be significant.


----------



## MarkusTubesNow

My question is specifically focused on the use of the Dual triode 6SN7 in a preamp. I don't know if that makes a difference regarding the above comments. But I wanted to make sure it was clear what application I was thinking of.


----------



## 340519

I just ordered 2 6sn7 from the tubestore.com for my new icon audio hp8 mk2.  I'm looking forward to them complementing the 12ax7 gold lion premium. Should sound great.
https://www.thetubestore.com/electro-harmonix-6sn7-gold


----------



## Slade01

MarkusTubesNow said:


> My question is specifically focused on the use of the Dual triode 6SN7 in a preamp. I don't know if that makes a difference regarding the above comments. But I wanted to make sure it was clear what application I was thinking of.



It's like what @cddc said above - it really all depends on what the design/implementation of your amp entails.  If your amp has a push-pull design, if the 6SN7 is acting as a phase inverter, then having a matched or unmatched tubed will directly have an impact on the SQ.  Unmatched tubes will produce more distortion.  Depending on your amp, sometimes the unmatched tubes produce a desired sound.  Other designs, just produce sound that is muddled and not clear compared to matched tubes.  It really all depends on your specific amp and implementation at that point.

And yes to a point, if the seller is selling tubes that are "close enough for all practical purposes" i would err on the side of caution and assume the tubes were poorly matched or at a bare minimum.  But you mentioned a 20% minimum...more reputable sellers like upscale audio usually match a "gold standard" at within 15-20%.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ok - I'm no expert and hope my question is relevant, so here goes...

As it relates to balanced dual triodes within a tube (not matched pairs of tubes) - to what extent does auto-bias capabilities of an amp (if applicable)  mitigate issues related to use of an unbalanced tube?


----------



## maketus

Hi. I have little bear p7 otl tube amp, and that use default socket 5670. can i use this 6SN7 tube without any problem with this adapter  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-6SN7-A...830634?hash=item2ee53327ea:g:1SoAAOSwMmBV2wGi


----------



## rosgr63

I don't like  the exposed contacts on the side of the base.
They don't look very safe.

I have used 5670 to 6SN7 adapters/tubes with good success.


----------



## maketus

okay. i buy another adapter where is not exposed contacts.


----------



## chrisdrop

@Deyan makes nice adapters.


----------



## adamaley

Hello all! I'm looking for a replacement for my Sylvania Bad Boys. Something with the same tonality that brings more to the table in terms of soundstage, transparency, palpability, etc. I already have the Tung-Sol BGRP, but find them to be cooler in my system even though I like most of their virtues.


----------



## Velozity

adamaley said:


> Hello all! I'm looking for a replacement for my Sylvania Bad Boys. Something with the same tonality that brings more to the table in terms of soundstage, transparency, palpability, etc. I already have the Tung-Sol BGRP, but find them to be cooler in my system even though I like most of their virtues.




With that wish list I would give the National Union black glass a try.  Or better (and warmer) still, get a Mullard ECC33.  I have both and prefer them over my Sylvies.


----------



## adamaley

Unfortunately the ECC33 is incompatible with my amp. The National Union should be as it's a standard 6SN7. I'll give them a try.

Any other suggestions from other members will be appreciated.


----------



## Wes S

adamaley said:


> Hello all! I'm looking for a replacement for my Sylvania Bad Boys. Something with the same tonality that brings more to the table in terms of soundstage, transparency, palpability, etc. I already have the Tung-Sol BGRP, but find them to be cooler in my system even though I like most of their virtues.


Perhaps, a Brimar black glass 6sn7gt?  I went from Bad Boys to the Brimar 6sn7gt, and seem to have experienced just what you are looking for.


----------



## adamaley

@Wes S I have two National Union Black Glass incoming. I've been eyeing the Brimars but I'm not sure which variation I need to get. There are so many kinds. Can you elaborate on the properties of the pair you have and why you picked them over the others?


----------



## Wes S

adamaley said:


> @Wes S I have two National Union Black Glass incoming. I've been eyeing the Brimars but I'm not sure which variation I need to get. There are so many kinds. Can you elaborate on the properties of the pair you have and why you picked them over the others?


There are a few variations of the Brimar 6sn7gt, and I have 2 pairs, that differ slightly in construction but sound nearly the same. I have been told the clear glass, sound similar as well.  To elaborate, they have the warmth similar to the bad boys, but have a bit better clarity in the mids, with a bit better extension on both ends, with the biggest soundstage I have heard, from any other 6sn7gt.  Hard to describe the sound, but there is just something magical with Brimar tubes, in that they have great clarity and extension, without ever getting harsh.  I will post some pics of mine, when I get home from work.


----------



## adamaley

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I have a pair of both the National Union Black Glass, and the Brimars incoming. I'll be using them in a Line Magnetic 508ia power amp.


----------



## gibosi

adamaley said:


> Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I have a pair of both the National Union Black Glass, and the Brimars incoming. I'll be using them in a Line Magnetic 508ia power amp.



Also, the earlier gray glass National Union is quite nice as well. But they are not common and finding a pair might take some time.


----------



## Wes S

adamaley said:


> Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I have a pair of both the National Union Black Glass, and the Brimars incoming. I'll be using them in a Line Magnetic 508ia power amp.


Sorry, I forgot the pics of my Brimar black glass.

Here is what they look like.  These pics were taken by the forum member, I bought them from.  My friend Stavros, also known as @rosgr63, is who I bought these amazing tubes from.






















Both pairs sound the same to me, and are magical.


----------



## adamaley

Stavros sold me a U52 last year and it's been working great. He's a great asset to this forum. 

This is the tube I ordered off eBay:


 

It resembles the black base version you posted above. Thanks for posting the pics. I'm reassured now.


----------



## adamaley

Wes S said:


> Sorry, I forgot the pics of my Brimar black glass.
> 
> Here is what they look like.  These pics were taken by the forum member, I bought them from.  My friend Stavros, also known as @rosgr63, is who I bought these amazing tubes from.
> 
> ...



Nice camera there, btw. What do you use?


----------



## Wes S

adamaley said:


> Nice camera there, btw. What do you use?


Stavros, will have to chime in on that.  Those are his pics, and now they are my tubes.


----------



## Wes S (Jan 31, 2020)

adamaley said:


> Stavros sold me a U52 last year and it's been working great. He's a great asset to this forum.
> 
> This is the tube I ordered off eBay:
> 
> ...


Those are super tall looking, and look like some of the earliest versions of that tube.  I have noticed that the earlier versions seem to have taller glass, and I was always curious if this made any difference to the sound.  Seems like of all my tubes, the tall glass are my preference, but I am not sure if that really makes a difference or it is just a coincidence?


----------



## Wes S

gibosi said:


> Also, the earlier gray glass National Union is quite nice as well. But they are not common and finding a pair might take some time.


I actually have some of those grey glass NU, and they are similar in the bass to my KenRad black glass, but have slightly drier mids, and better extension up top.  They are really nice tubes.


----------



## MarkusTubesNow (Feb 7, 2020)

Holy smokes those things are expensive. Have you ever tried any of the new production Shuguang tubes that are supposed to give the Brimars a run for their money?


----------



## MarkusTubesNow

Question about 6J5s - 
Some of you might have read the thread over on Audiogon that says something to the effect that the best 6SN7 is actually a pair of 6J5s. Something like "In a surprise Hollywood twist of an ending it turns out that the best 6SN7 is actually a pair of 6J5 tubes..."

Have any of you 6SN7 addicts tried a pair of 6J5s via the adapters, like the ones that Deyan makes? If so, what are your favorite 6J5 tubes?


----------



## Wes S

MarkusTubesNow said:


> Holy smokes those things are expensive. Have you ever tried any of the new production Shuguang tubes that are supposed to give the Brimars a run for their money?


I have not actually tried any new production 6sn7 tubes.  I go straight for the NOS, and really find it hard to believe the Shuguang can hand with Brimar, but I have not tested that out to be sure.  The Brimar are a special sounding tube, that in my opinion are in a class by themselves. I know other's have their favorites, but I love every Brimar tube I have ever heard.  I am currently running Brimar tubes in both my amps, and could not be happier.


----------



## gibosi

Wes S said:


> I have not actually tried any new production 6sn7 tubes.  I go straight for the NOS, and really find it hard to believe the Shuguang can hand with Brimar, but I have not tested that out to be sure.  The Brimar are a special sounding tube, that in my opinion are in a class by themselves. I know other's have their favorites, but I love every Brimar tube I have ever heard.  I am currently running Brimar tubes in both my amps, and could not be happier.



I quite like the Brimar "sound". And for those who have tube rectification, Brimar 5U4G and 5R4GY might be worth checking out, IMO.


----------



## tafens

MarkusTubesNow said:


> Question about 6J5s -
> Some of you might have read the thread over on Audiogon that says something to the effect that the best 6SN7 is actually a pair of 6J5s. Something like "In a surprise Hollywood twist of an ending it turns out that the best 6SN7 is actually a pair of 6J5 tubes..."



Haven’t tried it, but it might well be, as the two 6J5 triodes are in two separate envelopes and further apart reducing possible interference.

Otherwise there should be as much or as little difference as between two different 6SN7’s, as the 6SN7 basically is two 6J5’s in the same bottle.


----------



## Gazny

Anyone have experience with tube services?  A Sommelier for tubes. Anyone have personal experiences with vintagetubeservices specifically?(The search function isn't bringing up any results)


----------



## Wes S

Gazny said:


> Anyone have experience with tube services?  A Sommelier for tubes. Anyone have personal experiences with vintagetubeservices specifically?(The search function isn't bringing up any results)


I have bought from Vintagetubeservices, and Andy is one of the best tube dealers out there.  He is kind of slow with shipping, but just know that going in, and once you get the tubes you will be happy, I promise.


----------



## Gazny (Feb 10, 2020)

Wes S said:


> I have bought from Vintagetubeservices, and Andy is one of the best tube dealers out there.  He is kind of slow with shipping, but just know that going in, and once you get the tubes you will be happy, I promise.


Well not the answer my wallet wanted to hear. I'll give him a call and see what he recomends to me.
Fairly new to tubes and was wondering other's experiences.


----------



## Wes S

Gazny said:


> Well not the answer my wallet wanted to hear. I'll give him a call and see what he recomends to me.
> Fairly new to tubes and was wondering other's experiences.


You are in good hands with Andy, for sure.  He does not sell junk, and stands by his tubes.  He may be a bit more expensive, than some of the ebay guys, but this is definitely the case of you get what you pay for, with him.


----------



## MasonStorm

MarkusTubesNow said:


> Question about 6J5s -
> Some of you might have read the thread over on Audiogon that says something to the effect that the best 6SN7 is actually a pair of 6J5s. Something like "In a surprise Hollywood twist of an ending it turns out that the best 6SN7 is actually a pair of 6J5 tubes..."
> 
> Have any of you 6SN7 addicts tried a pair of 6J5s via the adapters, like the ones that Deyan makes? If so, what are your favorite 6J5 tubes?



Hi Markus,

Yes I've tried many of the 6J5GT's.  I own ATES, Ferranti, Fivre, Neotron, Philips, Pinnacle, Visseaux and Zenith.  By far, the Neotrons are the very, very, very, very best.  They do everything right, from deep bass extension and slam, to lush/warm voices, to high-end detail.  They are my favorite driver of any kind.


----------



## MarkusTubesNow

MasonStorm said:


> Hi Markus,
> 
> Yes I've tried many of the 6J5GT's.  I own ATES, Ferranti, Fivre, Neotron, Philips, Pinnacle, Visseaux and Zenith.  By far, the Neotrons are the very, very, very, very best.  They do everything right, from deep bass extension and slam, to lush/warm voices, to high-end detail.  They are my favorite driver of any kind.


Hmmm. Those things must be unobtanium. 
I can't even find a picture of them anywhere. 
I have a quad of national unions coming. What should I try next that isn't crazy expensive?


----------



## MasonStorm

MarkusTubesNow said:


> Hmmm. Those things must be unobtanium.
> I can't even find a picture of them anywhere.
> I have a quad of national unions coming. What should I try next that isn't crazy expensive?



Here are current eBay listings for Visseaux quads:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6j5g-tube-...208148?hash=item3b392b4794:g:ekEAAOSwMWddgJ88

and

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-QU...541503?hash=item5b6ccf2fff:g:~-EAAOSwl9xeNshq

And I forgot to mention that I also own STC's, which are quite good as well - remarkable clarity:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1MQ-6J5G-S...871529?hash=item2f30a96829:g:rckAAOSw0R5c2-RD

I've received great tubes and service from all three of these sellers.


----------



## leftside

MasonStorm said:


> Here are current eBay listings for Visseaux quads:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6j5g-tube-...208148?hash=item3b392b4794:g:ekEAAOSwMWddgJ88
> 
> ...


I've always wondered who purchases tubes from wege_high_tubes. Now I know. You can get those tubes for a 1/10th of the price from elsewhere if you are patient.


----------



## leftside

MarkusTubesNow said:


> Question about 6J5s -
> Some of you might have read the thread over on Audiogon that says something to the effect that the best 6SN7 is actually a pair of 6J5s. Something like "In a surprise Hollywood twist of an ending it turns out that the best 6SN7 is actually a pair of 6J5 tubes..."
> 
> Have any of you 6SN7 addicts tried a pair of 6J5s via the adapters, like the ones that Deyan makes? If so, what are your favorite 6J5 tubes?


Take a look over here. Plenty of talk of great and cheap 6J5 tubes:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/1101-audio-custom-crafted-headphone-amps.919425/

Also on the main Woo Audio WA22 thread I posted a lot of 6J5 tube impressions. But, I don't own the WA22 anymore, so don't have the link to that thread handy.


----------



## Aanta (Feb 16, 2020)

MarkusTubesNow said:


> Holy smokes those things are expensive. Have you ever tried any of the new production Shuguang tubes that are supposed to give the Brimars a run for their money?



I have heard Shuguang tubes, but never brought anyone back home and done any A/B test and so might be nothing more than an opinion.
Anyway, treble is ok in the Shuguang without shining in any way, midrange is thick and I guess some will consider this to be 'presence' as they will lift a singer or instruments that play in the midrange forward, bass is firm and warm in the upper part but falling a bit in the deeper range, just a bit low. This might have been due to the electronics (which were completely linear) and speakers. You mentioned Brimar, I had those for a loan and I understand people might compare them, because those have a somewhat similar characteristic.
Or the short answer, they certainly have a special 'tube' sound but not the characteristics I have been looking for.

I give a mini review of my collection, but I have already a separate post with the same information under LeFigaro headphone amp tuberolling:
My favourite 6SN7 is Matsushita (GT), Toshiba (GT) & Radioshack 'Lifetime' (GTB). Which also is a Matsushita but it sound a bit different. Sylvania (GTB) trailing just behind because it is very musical. GE's 6SN7GTB is open and detailed, have clear voices but cannot handle a drumset/cymbals. RCA don't sound really clear, is allround ok without making me happy in any category.

Outside competition: RFT, 6SN7 no extra letters, the tube was made in 1954, very airy, musical but a far cry from being linear and come with an odd weak lower end  - almost as it got a phaze issue. This do not fit descriptions or review of these tubes at all. But my 12AU7 RTF have the same characteristics, so some production runs might have been like this.
Tronal, Russian made - just avoid it!


----------



## MarkusTubesNow

Aanta said:


> I have heard Shuguang tubes, but never brought anyone back home and done any A/B test and so might be nothing more than an opinion.
> Anyway, treble is ok in the Shuguang without shining in any way, midrange is thick and I guess some will consider this to be 'presence' as they will lift a singer or instruments that play in the midrange forward, bass is firm and warm in the upper part but falling a bit in the deeper range, just a bit low. This might have been due to the electronics (which were completely linear) and speakers. You mentioned Brimar, I had those for a loan and I understand people might compare them, because those have a somewhat similar characteristic.
> Or the short answer, they certainly have a special 'tube' sound but not the characteristics I have been looking for.
> 
> ...


I think any discussion of Shuguangs needs to identify which ones you are specifically talking about. Because there is the black treasure series but which are called also CV - 181 T's and Z's also the so-called Western Electric 6SN7s,  and then also the British ones and then there's also those Globe ones so there's a whole lot of different ones that they make so apparently they all have different sound.


----------



## Aanta (Feb 17, 2020)

MarkusTubesNow said:


> I think any discussion of Shuguangs needs to identify which ones you are specifically talking about. Because there is the black treasure series but which are called also CV - 181 T's and Z's also the so-called Western Electric 6SN7s,  and then also the British ones and then there's also those Globe ones so there's a whole lot of different ones that they make so apparently they all have different sound.



Hello Markus you are absolutely right about that.
I was hesitant to post at all actually but without any reply I decided to give an opinion at least.
Sadly now afterwards those Shuguang is the ones hardest to identify with certainty.

But I can confirm it was not the Treasure series, which I actually have heard since, but not long or in a quiet setting to make any opinion or even estimate about those.
The ones I heard was not from the 'other' military factory either who are marked with a star, I own that variety actually.
The ones that got a listening test was the commercial Shuguang that still had the white text - when I did a search I find tubes with similar text that now is in red. And they had a brown base.
Here is an image of the looks of the tube!
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...8qtFOabQJAeFjXz06lxH9QLfsnf8S_HAnbaHqwz_1MoT2

Yes those that look like a globe look cute, and I wished to buy one but at the time I only found those sold in pairs.

The Matushita tube is a grey plate clear top and seem to be from 1970 but with so much uncertainty that I decided not to mention that at first it is a GT.
It have a sibling with the Realistic 'Lifetime' radio shack look physically identical but got a chrome top, and is a GTB.
Now that it had the text 'Made in Japan' put me on the track of identify the manufacturer it is either 1960 or 1970. When opening the box the text 23 CR can be seen.

The Toshiba tubes all are grey plate and chrome top and the seller claimed they were from about that same time frame. 
These arrived without their boxes.

The RCA are grey plate, chrome top and obviously USA made.

The Sylvania is a chrome top black plate and GTB, marked made in USA and the text "cg" and "AKA" on the side, the box do not provide any further lead.

Lastly the GE 6SN7GTB is a black plate chrome top that came in  a consumer box but with military stripe glued on. The text on the stripe state the tube type of course but also M2463-117OCM2463
As it is a military issue the batch had gone trough rigorous testing. But they were never intended for playing nice music with. And even though it is quite nice for the price, it is beaten by those mentioned above.


----------



## jambaj0e (Mar 17, 2020)

New tubes alert! So I got the Psvane CV181-T Mark II to replace the stock Shuguang WE6SN7 on my Cayin HA-300 amp that has 6SN7 as driver tubes. I do really, really like the stock tube, but I want even more. My system is as follows:

Custom Windows 10 PC to iFi Nano iUSB3.0 (usb conditioner) to Chord Qutest DAC to Cayin HA-300 amp to Audeze LCD-3 Fazor.

*(SUMMARY: Love these tubes! Better than the already excellent stock Shuguang WE6SN7 and better than my pair of 1952 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys)*

So after about 3 hours, here's what I notice about the CV181 vs Shuguang.

The Shuguang has really nice soundstage and excellent separation, with a lot of energy and musicality. At times, though the mid-treble vocal can get somewhat grainy. I also tend to use EQ to add some body and bottom end to the bass, which although they're nicely responsive and tight, they can be slightly lean with certain instruments like bass guitar. There's impact across the range, and transients are nice and fast. For stock tubes, these are excellent, and actually, when I tried my pair of 1952 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys, I switched back to the Shuguangs since the Bad Boys dampened the treble a bit too much in order to get a little more bass, which wasn't much.





Moving to the Psvane CV181-T mkII, wow, right away, these sounded beautiful! Just a tad darker, sweeter, and warmer than the Shuguang, but no less musical and energetic.If anything, there's a sense of "roundness" to the notes, a little more "tubey" than the fairly neutral Shuguang, and definitely more body and slam in the mid-bass and bass. I didn't have to EQ anymore. The treble is slightly smoothen out, but not dampened, meaning I still get nice crisp cymbals and anything high that hits, but vocals and wind/string instruments have a smoother, sweeter high melody.

This is especially great for jazz and classical/soundtrack, but works well for pop, rock, EDM, and yes, rap. The only fault so far that I found is if the mid to mid-treble is densely layered, it can get a little too dense. Also, the mid-vocal can be a little too forward if it's recorded forward. It almost takes over too much at times, but, luckily this doesn't happen too often. I'm hoping these two things will settle down as I continue to burn in these tubes.

Packaging-wise, if you get the Matched Pair Premium Grade from Amazon, you'll get it in a nice case. I ordered it on Monday March 9, it was shipped from Hong Kong, and it arrived today on March 16. Surprising, considering the craziness we're all dealing with the Coronavirus.





Only thing I'm a bit disappointed is that the left tube has some uneven application of the grey coating at its bottom, and some of the gold coating is also rubbed off




Here is how it looks compared to the stock tube



And installed in my HA-300






Music listened on Amazon Music HD (via Jriver in order to bypass Windows 10's upscaling) mostly in UltraHD (24-bit 48Khz to 192Khz) and some in HD (16-bit 44.Khz)
- Selena Gomez - Lose You to Love Me (Amazing test for low, powerful piano, great vocals, low distinct bass pluck, etc)
- Friday Night Plans - Plastic Love (that dark electronic groove)
- Jeff Buckley - Hallelujah (that vocal and guitar!)
- Heize feat. Dean - And July
- Heize feat. Dean - Shut Up and Groove (Has this fast, rhythmic bass groove and just great vocals)
- Common - Resurrection
- Polo & Pan - Bakara (An audiophile dream with amazing percussive rhythm and so much to listen and pick out. One of my favorites)
- Fleetwood Mac - Dreams
- Fleetwood Mac - The Chain
- Monty Alexander - Sweet Georgia Brown (really tests the speed, dynamic, separation, and transient of a system. Fast and complex!)
- The Yuri Honing Trio - Walking on the Moon
- Whitney Houston - I Have Nothing
- Mariah Carey - Fourth of July
- Arne Domnerus - Limehouse Blues (live)
- Damien Rice - My Favorite Faded Fantasy
- Taylor Swift - Delicate
- Ariana Grande - Thank You Next
- Ariana Grande - Break Up with Your Girlfriend, I'm Bored
- Missy Elliot - Work It
- Lizzo - Good as Hell
- Queen - Under Pressure (remastered)
- Ben Webster - Ben's Blues
- M83 - Outro
- Santana feat Michelle Branch - The Game of Love
- Rebecca Pidgeon - Spanish Harlem
- Sara K - If I Could Sing Your Blues
- The Fred Hersh Trio - Played Twice
- Johnny Frigo - I Love Paris
- Paquito D'Rivera - Havana Cafe
- Bela Banfalvi & Antoino Vivaldi - The Four Seasons "Summer" III. Presto
- Jung Jaiel (Parasite Soundtrack) - The Belt of Faith (that amazing montage from the film!)
- Heize - But, I am Your Buddy
- Lisa Batiashvili - Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto in D Major 1. Allegro moderato


----------



## MarkusTubesNow

Thanks for your post! I found your post very informative because I'm very curious to hear what others think about these Psvane and Shuguang 6SN7 variants. I especially appreciated the comparison with your Bad Boys. Very interesting.

So, please continue to post on this thread about these tubes. How many hours do you have on the stock WE6SN7s?  Also, I'm interested to hear whether you'll be stocking up on any spares in the future and, if so, what tubes you'll go for. That will say a lot about how much you really like the CV-181 TIIs.

Also, it's interesting to see which specific variant of the Shuguang "WE"6SN7 you are comparing the Psvane CV-181-TIIs to. I'm really most curious, though, about how the CV 181 TIIs compare with those super-tall WE6SN7s with the exceptionally tall bottle and the red base. Interesting that the WE6SN7 has several different-looking types.

Thanks again for your post. Also, that is a gorgeous looking amp you're using. What the heck are those crazy looking balloon shaped tubes in there? Those look really cool.


----------



## jambaj0e

Thanks for the kind words. I probably have spent a good 50-75 hours on the stock WE6SN7, but since my HA-300 was an open box, I believe the tubes have been burnt in, too. Here's a place that sells those tubes:

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32960407649.html

I should probably sell my pair of '52 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys, too, since I won't need them anymore.


----------



## thomaskong78

I had been happy with Sylvania vt231 made in 1940's.


But some people claim that Bad boy version made in 1952 has better bass and body than vt231.


Can anybody confirm the below linked tubes are genuine "Bad boy"?


Tests NOS Matched Pair Sylvania 6SN7GT Black 3 Rivet T Bad Boy Plate TALL Tubes


thanks in advance


----------



## larcenasb

Here's the info you need, from another thread:

"Re: Just a head's up: RCA 5692 red base 6SN7's are awesome 

« Reply #8 on: 23 Oct 2013, 03:22 pm »

 Very insightful description from Ebay's sushifanatic seller on what a real Bad Boy is:

"Please note that a many people are listing Sylvania "Bad Boy" tubes which, in fact, are not true Bad Boys, and are worth considerably less, and sound extremely different. All Sylvania Bad Boy tubes are:

1. Made by Sylvania, although they can be relabeled / rebranded by a number of other companies, like RCA, Philco, Westinghouse, etc.
2. Are made between very late 1951 and very early 1953. (This tube has a date code of 152, representing the 52nd week of 1951.) The first digit of the date code represents the year, and needs to start with a 1, 2, or 3. The 1, 2, or 3 may be underlined. If it was made in 1950 it is NOT a Bad Boy. 
3. Have a BOTTOM foil getter. Flashing can extend up to 1/3 of the way up the tube, from the bottom. If it has a chrome top, it is NOT a Bad Boy type tube. Bad Boys ALL have clear glass on top.
4. The TOP mica is rectangular, with 3 spikes on each of the shorter edges. These three spikes look like small triangular edges bent down on each side. If there are no spikes, it is not a Bad Boy. 
5. The BOTTOM mica is rectangular 
6. Have opposing black T-plates
7. Has a black base
8. Has copper grid posts
9. Have three rivet holes (like the one I am selling.) There is debate on this issue, but on another website, someone disassembled the two and three hole tubes to document the internal differences.
10. Are ONLY a 6SN7GT tube type. Not a 6SN7GTA or 6SN7GTB. 
11. Are NOT labeled VT231, which looks very similar, but were made earlier. (Still great tubes, but lack the bass of the Bad Boy types.) However, military tubes marked JAN-CHS-6SN7GT CAN be real Bad Boys."

The date codes don't seem to match what this description says, but the main structural characteristics are there--most crucially, the three rivet holes on both plates. But man... $284.15...


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 20, 2020)

larcenasb said:


> Here's the info you need, from another thread:
> 
> "Re: Just a head's up: RCA 5692 red base 6SN7's are awesome
> 
> ...


I paid 100$ for Sylvie vt231 made in 1940's two years ago.

So much I like the sound of it, I bought one more pair at 125$ last year.

It give balanced sound with nice sparkle on the top.

Now it cost 150$ or more.

But bad boy over 200$ is overpriced upon hype.

I also have Nos Amerex 6sn7 made in Canada and RCA Gtb and Sylvie GTB made in 1955 coming in this week.

I will forgo Bad boy unless I can get them under 160$ per pair.


----------



## Wes S

Hey fellow tube rollers!  I am back to the 6SN7's and loving it.  For the past year, I have been in a pretty intense love affair with the 12AU7, and having a blast.  However, as the tube rolling addiction goes, I decided to see if the grass was greener on the other side, and got some adapters to roll some of my top tier 6SN7's.  Well it turns out, this time it actually was greener on the other side.  This is my current tube roll and one I will not be changing any time soon.  The Tung Sol 6SN7GT VT231 BGRP, is the real deal.  Everything about this tube is perfect, when paired with a Bendix 6080WB, my Atticus and Gumby.  The 6SN7 is a killer tube, no doubt.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Wes S said:


> Hey fellow tube rollers!  I am back to the 6SN7's and loving it.  For the past year, I have been in a pretty intense love affair with the 12AU7, and having a blast.  However, as the tube rolling addiction goes, I decided to see if the grass was greener on the other side, and got some adapters to roll some of my top tier 6SN7's.  Well it turns out, this time it actually was greener on the other side.  This is my current tube roll and one I will not be changing any time soon.  The Tung Sol 6SN7GT VT231 BGRP, is the real deal.  Everything about this tube is perfect, when paired with a Bendix 6080WB, my Atticus and Gumby.  The 6SN7 is a killer tube, no doubt.


Yeah, you just cannot go wrong with that tungsol, it just FEELS right!


----------



## Wes S

Ranger Ron said:


> Yeah, you just cannot go wrong with that tungsol, it just FEELS right!


Very true!  I have some other top tier 6SN7's that I was meaning to roll, but I just can't bring myself to take the Tung Sol out of the amp, it just sounds so perfect.

I put a cover over the white adapter, and now it looks as good as it sounds.  Long live the 6SN7!


----------



## whirlwind

Wes S said:


> Very true!  I have some other top tier 6SN7's that I was meaning to roll, but I just can't bring myself to take the Tung Sol out of the amp, it just sounds so perfect.
> 
> I put a cover over the white adapter, and now it looks as good as it sounds.  Long live the 6SN7!



Love both of those tubes and headphone cable you are using.
I am a sucker for clean looking set-ups and yours is just that.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Wes S said:


> Very true!  I have some other top tier 6SN7's that I was meaning to roll, but I just can't bring myself to take the Tung Sol out of the amp, it just sounds so perfect.
> 
> I put a cover over the white adapter, and now it looks as good as it sounds.  Long live the 6SN7!


Indeed! Looks very 


Wes S said:


> Very true!  I have some other top tier 6SN7's that I was meaning to roll, but I just can't bring myself to take the Tung Sol out of the amp, it just sounds so perfect.
> 
> I put a cover over the white adapter, and now it looks as good as it sounds.  Long live the 6SN7!


Indeed. Very nice choice of color too.  Looks great against the black. I had a BGRP in the other night, just really starting to get into a late night session, and then the white noise hit hard in the right channel. Whomp whomp. Not the way I like to end my nights.  Now I'm just trying to accept the sound of a short bottle 6sn7w.


----------



## Wes S

whirlwind said:


> Love both of those tubes and headphone cable you are using.
> I am a sucker for clean looking set-ups and yours is just that.


Thanks man!  We definitely seem to have similar taste and preferences.


----------



## Wes S (May 23, 2020)

Ranger Ron said:


> Indeed! Looks very
> 
> Indeed. Very nice choice of color too.  Looks great against the black. I had a BGRP in the other night, just really starting to get into a late night session, and then the white noise hit hard in the right channel. Whomp whomp. Not the way I like to end my nights.  Now I'm just trying to accept the sound of a short bottle 6sn7w.


Sorry to hear about your BGRP!  I have a short bottle 6SN7W loaded up in an adapter and ready to roll, and I would love to know how it sounds, but I just can't pull my BGRP yet.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Wes S said:


> Sorry to hear about your BGRP!  I have a short bottle 6SN7W loaded up in an adapter and ready to roll, and I would love to know how it sounds, but I just can't pull my BGRP yet.


Nice!! I have a feeling you will enjoy it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 5, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> I had been happy with Sylvania vt231 made in 1940's.
> 
> 
> But some people claim that Bad boy version made in 1952 has better bass and body than vt231.
> ...


I'd grab the JAN CHS 6SN7GT version of that tube if I was gonna pay that much.  That way there's no discussion of "is this a Bad Boy"?

Now Having said that, I just grabbed a ($69) 1951 Sylvania 6SN7GT that crosses all the check marks for a "Bad Boy" that sounds just like the 1952 JAN CHS version (from memory).

( Bad Boy pair that I sold, kinda wish I hadn't)


(newly acquired, right tube, 1951 Sylvania 6SN7GT) Bad Boy? Sure does looks and sounds like one.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 6, 2020)

Sorry guys posted at wrong thread 😬


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 6, 2020)

What thread should this have been posted in?  

(40's Ken-rad clear glass VT-231 and Sylvania 7236)


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 6, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> What thread should this have been posted in?
> 
> (40's Ken-rad clear glass VT-231 and Sylvanai 7236)


Most Excellent Pairing.
Thought I was at the Darkvoice thread with that...lol.. going back and forth with Cetron and Tung Sol comparisons 😂


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 6, 2020)

At the risk of going off-topic...   Ya gotta try the Sylvania 7236.   I really like the Cetron 7236s (I have 2), but like the Sylvania better. Deeper/Tighter bottom-end and a bit more airy w/ wider sound-stage.  They are hard to find, but there's a seller on eBay with a few left.  Of course YMMV.

I do have a couple of TS 5998s on the way, however.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> At the risk of going off-topic...   Ya gotta try the Sylvania 7236.   I really like the Cetron 7236s (I have 2), but like the Sylvania better. Deeper/Tighter bottom-end and a bit more airy w/ wider sound-stage.  They are hard to find, but there's a seller on eBay with a few left.  Of course YMMV.
> 
> I do have a couple of TS 5998s on the way, however.


I thought I was alone on this! A well mannered tube indeed. Not as bloated as the Tung Sol 7236 and wide like you mentioned. I keep my cards close to my chest on this tube.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 6, 2020)

LOL!!  Nice!!

Yeah -- I've heard that the TS 7236 (don't have one) was a bit darker and maybe even a bit sloppy on the bottom-end.  Have not heard the TS 5998s and they are pretty highly regarded, so I'm eager to do  a 7236 vs. 5998 comparo when they arrive.  

** I'll not talk anymore about non-6SN7s here.  Maybe via PM.  (Or is there a 6AS7/6080/5998/7236 thread?)


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> LOL!!  Nice!!
> 
> Yeah -- I've heard that the TS 7236 (don't have one) was a bit darker and maybe even a bit sloppy on the bottom-end.  Have not heard the TS 5998s and they are pretty highly regarded, so I'm eager to do  a 7236 vs. 5998 comparo when they arrive.
> 
> ** I'll not talk anymore about non-6SN7s here.  Maybe via PM.  (Or is there a 6AS7/6080/5998/7236 thread?)



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-310#post-15660955


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> At the risk of going off-topic...   Ya gotta try the Sylvania 7236.   I really like the Cetron 7236s (I have 2), but like the Sylvania better. Deeper/Tighter bottom-end and a bit more airy w/ wider sound-stage.  They are hard to find, but there's a seller on eBay with a few left.  Of course YMMV.
> 
> I do have a couple of TS 5998s on the way, however.


Hey @Ripper2860 , get yourself a Bendix 6080wb graphite plate, preferably the slotted but they all are killer, and I bet your power tube search will be over.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 8, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Hey @Ripper2860 , get yourself a Bendix 6080wb graphite plate, preferably the slotted but they all are killer, and I bet your power tube search will be over.


They only got a 7 out of 10 in this test... Tung Sol and GEC 6080 edges out the Bendix

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3

*Thomson CSF-6080WA*

Price: ~£8 each
Availability: excellent


French military tube from 60's to mid 80's. Often comes in the original ridiculously oversized boxes. Clean, Airy & delicate. Nice treble performance. Well extended with impressive decay. Sparkly. Sweet sounding but could be a little bit metallic and a little thin sounding overall & especially in the mids. Good bass definition but may be bass-light for some. Works well with HD-650s. Nice budget easily available tube. If you got an RCA 6080 or GE-6080 as the stock tube then Thomson can be a worthwhile upgrade.

Treble: 8/10
Mid: 6/10
Bass 6/10

Overall Performance: 7/10
Value for Money: 9/10



















*Sylvania 6080*

Price: ~£10-£15 each
Availability: very good

Also available as WA/WB/WC iterations (chronological improvements) which may sound different. Tonally very warm & soft. Liquid. Smeared & Blobby. Pretty Bleh. Lacking in dynamics, overall impact & detail is obscured. Mid-centric & slow. Poor extension at the top. Pretty nasty overall. Poor choice for HD-650s. I would skip it. Apparently later versions (with steel rather than the earlier copper grid rods) tend be noisy.

Treble: 1/10
Mids: 5/10
Bass 4/10

Overall Performance: 4/10
Value for Money: 5/10












*Tung Sol 6080*

Price: ~£15 each
Availability: Average

Cool looking tube with classic looking US print. Also appears under Chatham label. Cheap but doesn't seem to be loads of them around. Damned good sounding tube! Clear and wide but with extra bite - just what the HD-650s needs. Punchy & Holographic with vocals a little more recessed but well placed for me. Well extended in treble. Dynamic. Sounds quick. Tight bass with good attack & weight. Guitars have excellent tube "twang". Sometimes could be a little bit grainy sounding. My favourite budget tube if not one of my favourites overall. Gets feet tapping like few of the others. Seems in tune with the "spirit of the Crack". Sometimes ships as the stock tube in the kit - if so, no need to go any further unless you're curious.

Treble: 8/10
Mid: 8/10
Bass 8/10

Overall Performance: 8/10
Value for Money: 10/10













*RCA 6080*

Price: ~£10 each
Availability: Excellent

Again, other iterations (JAN?) might sound different. This one sounds a bit richer than Tung Sol 6080. Initially sounds just average but with closer listening seems tonally very disjointed. Poor transient response & zero bite. Some mid-range & mid-bass suck-out. lacklustre. Treble can sound flat & rolled then strangely screechy at others. Weird & boring all at once. Loads around and cheap - and for good reason. Swap for a Thomson 6080 or Tung Sol 6080 asap.

Treble: 3/10
Mid: 5/10
Bass 4/10

Overall Performance: 4/10
Value for Money: 5/10













*Bendix 6080 Graphite Plates*

Price: ~£35 each (solid plate) £50 each (slotted plates)
Availability: average (solid plates) / poor (slotted plates)

Super ruggedised tube from New Jersey factory with graphite plates, thick glass and various extra supports - made for very demanding situations with need for high reliability. Thick glass - makes weird whizz-bang noises as it heats up. The only tube that needed 30 mins + to sound consistent (all others stable in 5-10) - which is a bit annoying for quick stealth sessions.

Super clean & solid sounding. Well balanced & surprisingly smooth. A hint of lushness (more than the standard Tung-Sol 6080). Instruments sound convincing, solid & well fleshed-out. Bass is slightly boosted but still well resolved and impactful. Treble extended and clear but lacking extra sparkle. Overall perhaps lacking in agility, punch and excitement factor. Might be lacking in "magic" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Solid performer but price-tag makes it relatively poor value especially vs the vanilla TS-6080. Perhaps use something more exciting in the input slot. Looks cool as hell in the Crack!

Slotted/ cross shaped plates more sought after and may sound different/better.

Treble: 7/10
Mid: 7/10
Bass 7/10

Overall Performance: 7/10
Value for Money: 5/10











*Mullard CV2984 / 6080*

Price: ~£30
Availability: pretty good

British tube in cigar roll. Very lush. Soft as hell. Lacking in transparency, resolution, and extension at both ends. However somehow manages not to be totally boring (unlike Sylvania 6080) with pretty special and unique liquid warmth in the mids that is strangely enjoyable and not found in any of the others. Glowing, rich & a bit other-worldly. Blended and swirled. Boomy, ill defined bass. Limited bandwith for music collection - Pathetic for electronica, worth hearing for other genres. Probably too thick and slow for HD-650s overall. Might be good for Beyerdynamics with sizzle. Will use from time to time.

Treble: 6/10
Mids: 8/10
Bass 5/10

Overall performance: 6/10
Value for Money: 6/10












*GEC 6080*

Price: ~£40+
Availability: not great but some available at higher prices (£65) on ebay

The less sought after of the 2 GEC tubes but almost as rare. Can sometimes be found for good (sub £30) prices. Beware people selling GE (US) tubes as GEC (British). Excellent and classy sounding tube – controlled, clean and spacious. Fundamentally warm but much less so than the Mullard and remains very well resolved in the treble and more balanced throughout. Extra shimmer and sparkle. Accurate and delicate with possibly the most impressive imaging/separation of the lot. Precise but not lean. Vocal is natural and well placed. Bass sounds well controlled but not monstrous. Some may find it all a bit lightweight/prissy. For me - the best 6080 next to the Tung Sol 6080 which has a bit more kick but isn't as refined.

Treble: 9/10
Mids: 8/10
Bass 8/10

Overall performance: 9/10
Value for Money: 7/10














*GE 6080*

Price: ~£8
Availability: excellent

Came as the stock tube in the kit and I returned to it at the end of all my rolling to see how far the Crack had come. A Good starting point and still better than RCA/Sylvania 6080. Overall sounds a little compressed, a bit dull and muted throughout the entire range when compared to the best of the others - but mostly inoffensive, nothing to worry about and will certainly not prevent the wow factor when first firing up a freshly built Crack. Impressively average in all departments. Would be cheap and easy to move to a Thomson 6080 or Tung Sol 6080 for a nice little upgrade but certainly no need to if you're not into tube rolling.

Treble: 6/10
Mids: 6/10
Bass 5/10

Overall performance: 5/10
Value for Money: 6/10


----------



## JKDJedi

Oops...thread just got hijacked..


----------



## DenverW

JKDJedi said:


> I'd grab the JAN CHS 6SN7GT version of that tube if I was gonna pay that much.  That way there's no discussion of "is this a Bad Boy"?
> 
> Now Having said that, I just grabbed a ($69) 1951 Sylvania 6SN7GT that crosses all the check marks for a "Bad Boy" that sounds just like the 1952 JAN CHS version (from memory).
> 
> ...



Hey!  I don't know if anyone responded to you.  From the photo it does look like a legit bad boy from late 1951.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Hey!  I don't know if anyone responded to you.  From the photo it does look like a legit bad boy from late 1951.


Thank you Denver, A few months back I was beside myself about what is or isn't a Bad Boy, for awhile I had the idea that only the JAN-CHS  could only truly carry this title. Thinking I was just full of myself. Most believe that late 51' to early 53' Sylvania are legit Bad Boys. This tube was made 1951 on the last week of December. (52 week) I m not overly wowed by this tube as (this is the best ever!!) But enjoy owning one with all the hoopla about it and all.


----------



## DenverW

Besides the two obvious ones (the three hole plates and the date codes) the things I look for are the bottom getter and the rectangular micas with the three 'teeth' on the top mica.  There are some other characteristics but this pretty much narrows it down.  I haven't heard every 6sn7 tubes so I'm sure there are some that best this, but its still one of my favorites.  It may not have the huge low end of the ken rad, but I found it overall a bit more musical and balanced.  If you got one under $70 then it was quite a steal!

As far as some of the power tubes (Bendix 6080 for example), they've been getting rarer and rarer.  There hasn't been a Bendix for sale on hifishark in over 2 weeks.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 8, 2020)

DenverW said:


> Besides the two obvious ones (the three hole plates and the date codes) the things I look for are the bottom getter and the rectangular micas with the three 'teeth' on the top mica.  There are some other characteristics but this pretty much narrows it down.  I haven't heard every 6sn7 tubes so I'm sure there are some that best this, but its still one of my favorites.  It may not have the huge low end of the ken rad, but I found it overall a bit more musical and balanced.  If you got one under $70 then it was quite a steal!
> 
> As far as some of the power tubes (Bendix 6080 for example), they've been getting rarer and rarer.  There hasn't been a Bendix for sale on hifishark in over 2 weeks.


Bendix and GEC, keep looking but nada. And yes, $69! I saw it and rubbed my eyes good before buying, thinking the grey plates in the sellers photos might have put off potential buyers, in person they are not as grey as the photos made them out to be. And yes, highly musical.


----------



## sfleming

I’ve been liking this Sylvania doing driver duty in my Dennis Had amp.


----------



## Ranger Ron

sfleming said:


> I’ve been liking this Sylvania doing driver duty in my Dennis Had amp.


 the good ol' "bad boy" as they say.  I would love to try a Dennis Had amp.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Ranger Ron said:


> the good ol' "bad boy" as they say.  I would love to try a Dennis Had amp.





sfleming said:


> I’ve been liking this Sylvania doing driver duty in my Dennis Had amp.


Have you ever tried a late 40's 2 hole top getter 'chrome domed' sylvania 6sn7GT?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 10, 2020)

Ranger Ron said:


> Have you ever tried a late 40's 2 hole top getter 'chrome domed' sylvania 6sn7GT?


Two hole....had to reread that.. have three hole 6SN7GT short bottles, the one fully chromed out 6SN7GT is hard to tell.


----------



## Ripper2860

I believe those are 50's Chrome Domes.  Very nice and well regarded tubes!!!


----------



## sfleming

I'm really new to the 6SN7 game, I sort of lucked into getting that Sylvania I have. 
The private party included it when I purchased the amp. I saw date code 226 and I thought, really well that's a little bonus?  
I do plan on getting some other 6SN7s like the chrome domes you mentioned, just to get some others for comparison and backup purposes.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 10, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I believe those are 50's Chrome Domes.  Very nice and well regarded tubes!!!


Did they make these to 58'? I'm uncertain about the far right one, it's date codes are 1958 (or 1948?)  according to a literature (I'll try to post that PDF ) the top getter short bottle 6SN7GT was manufactured to 1953. Might have to grab that book @Paladin79 recommended "Tube Lore" to help solve this for me. I'm sure it's probably a 58 , I've seen a brown base 49' Chrome dome pop up around here. According to this listing the Chrome Dome was manufactured from 1944 to 1953, mistaken?

PDF File ---> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2to8potozm6y3s2/Octal_Tubes_March_2018.pdf?dl=0


----------



## Ranger Ron

JKDJedi said:


> Did they make these to 58'? I'm uncertain about the far right one, it's date codes are 1958 (or 1948?)  according to a literature (I'll try to post that PDF ) the top getter short bottle 6SN7GT was manufactured to 1953. Might have to grab that book @Paladin79 recommended "Tube Lore" to help solve this for me. I'm sure it's probably a 58 , I've seen a brown base 49' Chrome dome pop up around here. According to this listing the Chrome Dome was manufactured from 1944 to 1953, mistaken?
> 
> PDF File ---> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2to8potozm6y3s2/Octal_Tubes_March_2018.pdf?dl=0


I believe the best sounding ones are 40's to the very early 50's. The bottom mica and the number of holes in plate are what matter in identifying them, compared to the early gta types that look very similar. They are very similar in construction to the short bottle 6sn7w minus the umbrella spokes and supporting rod.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 10, 2020)

Ranger Ron said:


> the good ol' "bad boy" as they say.  I would love to try a Dennis Had amp.


I run a Dennis Had power amp at times, @bcowen knows them pretty well and gifted me some caps so I could upgrade a bit.That is an SLA 70 Mark II on the bottom. I also have a borrowed Cary phono pre-amp that I hook up on occasion. Currently I am using a Schiit Freya + with the  as well as a pre-amp out from one of my own designs.

 Bill also gave me an entire set of tubes including some GE's for the Cary lol, there are some Tung Sols in there instead of those now but he meant well, sort of. One day I need to send the guy something as a thank you. Maybe five shares of GE stock.


----------



## Ranger Ron

JKDJedi said:


> Did they make these to 58'? I'm uncertain about the far right one, it's date codes are 1958 (or 1948?)  according to a literature (I'll try to post that PDF ) the top getter short bottle 6SN7GT was manufactured to 1953. Might have to grab that book @Paladin79 recommended "Tube Lore" to help solve this for me. I'm sure it's probably a 58 , I've seen a brown base 49' Chrome dome pop up around here. According to this listing the Chrome Dome was manufactured from 1944 to 1953, mistaken?
> 
> PDF File ---> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2to8potozm6y3s2/Octal_Tubes_March_2018.pdf?dl=0


Yup. 1948. Looks beautiful.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ranger Ron said:


> Yup. 1948. Looks beautiful.


Thanks, and thank you @Ripper2860


Ripper2860 said:


> I believe those are 50's Chrome Domes.  Very nice and well regarded tubes!!!


Thanks @Ripper2860 I can't find these anymore, would love to have a 1950 Chrome Dome.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 10, 2020)

Ranger Ron said:


> I believe the best sounding ones are 40's to the very early 50's. The bottom mica and the number of holes in plate are what matter in identifying them, compared to the early gta types that look very similar. They are very similar in construction to the short bottle 6sn7w minus the umbrella spokes and supporting rod.



Agreed.  I think '53 is approx. where the Chrome Dome magic ends.  Most I've found available are early 50's GT. The later GT/As ('54+, IIRC) don't seem to carry on the tradition of the GTs.  The trio shows one with a 3 (1953) date code.



JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, and thank you @Ripper2860
> 
> Thanks @Ripper2860 I can't find these anymore, would love to have a 1950 Chrome Dome.



'50-'52 are the sweet-spot.  Look for Magnavox and Motorola branded Chrome Domes with the 312 MFG code (Sylvania).


----------



## Ranger Ron

Ripper2860 said:


> Agreed.  I think '53 is approx. where the Chrome Dome magic ends.  Most I've found available are early 50's GT. The later GT/As ('54+, IIRC) don't seem to carry on the tradition of the GTs.  The trio shows one with a 3 (1953) date code.
> 
> 
> 
> '50-'52 are the sweet-spot.  Look for Magnavox and Motorola branded Chrome Domes with the 312 MFG code (Sylvania).


Absolutely. The gta to me sound lean in comparison. Great width but no real magic. I will definitely keep an eye for those rebranded ones. Emerson is another I've found.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 10, 2020)

Ranger Ron said:


> Absolutely. The gta to me sound lean in comparison. Great width but no real magic. I will definitely keep an eye for those rebranded ones. Emerson is another I've found.


I almost forgot I had this tube to be honest, had to light this thing up and remember what the fuss was about. Wow.. S W E E T. V O C A L S.  Found a few 1953 out there (ebay) but, nah, 52 and under.  One seller had them (1953) for $200 a pair LMAO!! https://www.audioasylumtrader.com/ca/listing/Tubes/Sylvania/6SN7GT-Real-Chrome-Dome/NOS-PAIR/210809

 Oh well, out.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I run a Dennis Had power amp at times, @bcowen knows them pretty well and gifted me some caps so I could upgrade a bit.That is an SLA 70 Mark II on the bottom. I also have a borrowed Cary phono pre-amp that I hook up on occasion. Currently I am using a Schiit Freya + with the  as well as a pre-amp out from one of my own designs.
> 
> Bill also gave me an entire set of tubes including some GE's for the Cary lol, there are some Tung Sols in there instead of those now but he meant well, sort of. One day I need to send the guy something as a thank you. Maybe five shares of GE stock.



Actually, I didn't mean "well," I meant those as a joke. I was rummaging through a tube bin one day, saw the tubes adjacent to the GE's gagging and had to get them out of there before the good tubes all developed vacuum leaks and interelement shorts, so naturally thought of you.   

But since you mentioned it, swapping out rectifiers was my first ever tube-rolling experience.  The SLA-70 (original version) was my very first tube amp and used a pair of 5AR4 rectifiers. I stopped by an electronic store (this was mid-90's) and asked if they had any tubes, and lo and behold picked up a dozen RCA 5AR4's for a song. Could not believe the difference in those over the Chinese Ruby's that came in the amp (huh? a rectifier just converts AC to DC, how can the brand make any difference??)  Sadly, that was the genesis of a decades long addiction that just seems to get worse with age. 

I never heard the Mk II version of the SLA-70. By the time that was introduced, I'd sweet talked Dennis out of a pair of 805 amps for a price I should be ashamed of...but wasn't.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 11, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Actually, I didn't mean "well," I meant those as a joke. I was rummaging through a tube bin one day, saw the tubes adjacent to the GE's gagging and had to get them out of there before the good tubes all developed vacuum leaks and interelement shorts, so naturally thought of you.
> 
> But since you mentioned it, swapping out rectifiers was my first ever tube-rolling experience.  The SLA-70 (original version) was my very first tube amp and used a pair of 5AR4 rectifiers. I stopped by an electronic store (this was mid-90's) and asked if they had any tubes, and lo and behold picked up a dozen RCA 5AR4's for a song. Could not believe the difference in those over the Chinese Ruby's that came in the amp (huh? a rectifier just converts AC to DC, how can the brand make any difference??)  Sadly, that was the genesis of a decades long addiction that just seems to get worse with age.
> 
> I never heard the Mk II version of the SLA-70. By the time that was introduced, I'd sweet talked Dennis out of a pair of 805 amps for a price I should be ashamed of...but wasn't.


Those amps hold up well, I know of several people with SLA-70's and they are still going strong after 25 years or so. I just recently changed electrolytics in a 20 year old Mark II that Dennis sold directly to a guy just out of college in Chicago as I recall.

So anyway, back to 6sn7's. I do like Sylvanias and have most all of the popular types, one of my current favorite listens are some very old Sylvania 6j5G's, single triode versions of the 6sn7. These have the Motorola brand on them.

I am listening in an amp I designed that allows me to plug in two different headphones at a time and adjust each channel separately, I can also get a pretty quick indication of tube gain with additional meters.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those amps hold up well, I know of several people with SLA-70's and they are still going strong after 25 years or so. I just recently changed electrolytics in a 20 year old Mark II that Dennis sold directly to a guy just out of college in Chicago as I recall.
> 
> So anyway, back to 6sn7's. I do like Sylvanias and have most all of the popular types, one of my current favorite listens are some very old 6j5's, single triode versions of the 6sn7. These have the Motorola brand on them.
> I am listening in an amp I designed that allows me to plug in two different headphones at a time and adjust each channel separately, I can also get a pretty quick indication of tube gain with additional meters.



Those Motorolas look like they have round plates (but hard to tell for sure from the picture)?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 11, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Those Motorolas look like they have round plates (but hard to tell for sure from the picture)?




Black, two hole ladder plates. I did not have them in front of me earlier, they have GM on them rather than Motorola. These are not the easiest tubes to find in a matched pair.

I do own some Sylvania round plate ST's, here is an example of them. Listening to those right now with a Tung Sol 5998 power tube. Bass is excellent, mids and highs are pure Sylvania. Separation and sound stage are to die for. I had not heard these in an Incubus before so this is a treat. 6j5g's as well, same top mica but a perfectly round mica under the plate. You can find these branded Philco but good again finding a good matched pair is not so easy.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...057559?hash=item2aea365c57:g:E5UAAOSwRaFcw5FE

These look correct. But different micas, round plate. There is a second pair on Ebay that look similar.

This type of tube dates back to 1936 from what I have read. 6sn7's a few years later with registration in 1941.

Here is some decent info listing other variations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6SN7


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Black, two hole ladder plates. I did not have them in front of me earlier, they have GM on them rather than Motorola. These are not the easiest tubes to find in a matched pair.
> 
> I do own some Sylvania round plate ST's, here is an example of them. Listening to those right now with a Tung Sol 5998 power tube. Bass is excellent, mids and highs are pure Sylvania. Separation and sound stage are to die for. I had not heard these in an Incubus before so this is a treat. 6j5g's as well, same top mica but a perfectly round mica under the plate. You can find these branded Philco but good again finding a good matched pair is not so easy.
> 
> ...



Sweet!  Just received these beauties today. Not ST bottles obviously, but 1945 lightning logos with black round plates.  Match up pretty nicely right at NOS GM levels, so I'm looking forward to giving them a listen.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 11, 2020)

Well, not one to be left out ...

1944 Sylvania VT-94D (military) 6J5GT/Gs ...



Just waiting on an adapter.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, not one to be left out ...
> 
> 1944 Sylvania VT-94D (military) 6J5GT/Gs ...



Mine are a year newer.  So they're not as old.  And I'm pretty sure yours were made in China.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, not one to be left out ...
> 
> 1944 Sylvania VT-94D (military) 6J5GT/Gs ...
> 
> ...


Think I have the same ones, minus the adapter. Can @Deyan come to the rescue?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Think I have the same ones, minus the adapter. Can @Deyan come to the rescue?



*Still* no adapter?  Crap!  

I just received a pair of tubes from Langrex (in the UK) that were shipped 10 days ago.  And a stash of Fotons that was shipped on April 10th is still conspicuous by its absence. Left Russia customs on April 21. Must have been sent by boat, and the boat sunk. Or the captain got North and South America mixed up.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 11, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Think I have the same ones, minus the adapter. Can @Deyan come to the rescue?



I'm still waiting on my 2x 6J5GT to 6SN7 adapter from Deyan.  COVID has shut-down air parcel shipments to the US from his country, so he's hanging onto mine until he can ship.  My Covid-related annoyances/impact is minor in scale compared to many others, so I'm not complaining.  I just keep counting my blessings.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm still waiting on my 2x 6J5GT to 6SN7 adapter from Deyan.  COVID has shut-down air parcel shipments to the US from his country, so he's hanging onto mine until he can ship.  My Covid-related annoyances/impact is minor in scale compared to many others, so I'm not complaining.  I just keep counting my blessings.


I have a shipment coming through Moscow that will get to me this week, total ship time three weeks.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm still waiting on my 2x 6J5GT to 6SN7 adapter from Deyan.  COVID has shut-down air parcel shipments to the US from his country, so he's hanging onto mine until he can ship.  My Covid-related annoyances/impact is minor in scale compared to many others, so I'm not complaining.  I just keep counting my blessings.


Good to know, sounds like I'd have better luck just waiting on this adapter from China.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have a shipment coming through Moscow that will get to me this week, total ship time three weeks.



There's a saying for that.  Can't remember it verbatim, but it has something to do with salt and wounds.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There's a saying for that.  Can't remember it verbatim, but it has something to do with salt and wounds.


Lol you just have to understand how bribes work.


----------



## sfleming

I've got nowhere near enough room on my amp to fit 2x 6J5s and an adapter on the socket. Probably a good thing since this thread already has me looking to spend my money. Seriously though this thread is fantastic.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Good to know, sounds like I'd have better luck just waiting on this adapter from China.



Dude you are so confusing some of the FB people right now on the tube rollers group. Lol


----------



## Deyan

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm still waiting on my 2x 6J5GT to 6SN7 adapter from Deyan.  COVID has shut-down air parcel shipments to the US from his country, so he's hanging onto mine until he can ship.  My Covid-related annoyances/impact is minor in scale compared to many others, so I'm not complaining.  I just keep counting my blessings.




Well things aren't getting any better with the posts. 
There is always the DHL Express option. If several people split the shipping cost (around 25$) I can send the things to one person and he can send everyone's stuff. 
Anybody up for that??


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 12, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> Dude you are so confusing some of the FB people right now on the tube rollers group. Lol


LMAO 😂😂😂


----------



## JKDJedi

Deyan said:


> Well things aren't getting any better with the posts.
> There is always the DHL Express option. If several people split the shipping cost (around 25$) I can send the things to one person and he can send everyone's stuff.
> Anybody up for that??


Who's in!? Let's do this!!!


----------



## Deyan

JKDJedi said:


> Who's in!? Let's do this!!!



For the moment there's you, @bcowen , @Ripper2860 and @PsilocybinCube  who have suspended orders 

I'll try and make a registration with another post service today if no one is up for the DHL option.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

I will throw in on the DHL option if the regular shipping methods are still shut down.


----------



## Deyan

Ok that makes two. The above mentioned posts are not replying ( after I gave the my email two times and they have my phone number) 7 hours and counting. 
Judging from that I can imagine how they are delivering packages.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 12, 2020)

Deyan said:


> Ok that makes two. The above mentioned posts are not replying ( after I gave the my email two times and they have my phone number) 7 hours and counting.
> Judging from that I can imagine how they are delivering packages.



If the DHL option isn't hugely more expensive, I'm in too.

Edit:  I didn't see the prior post on the DHL.  I'm definitely in.


----------



## Deyan

Ok. That only leaves @Ripper2860
I think the right thing to do is wait for his opinion as well.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 12, 2020)

@Deyan -- I'm in if someone else will be the the primary recipient and US-side distributor.  My schedule is just too hectic to be the point-man and I'd likely further hold-up things after they arrive.

Thanks!!


----------



## Deyan

Ok you can't. And since US shipping isn't free as well, it's only fair that the primary recipient get his adapter for free.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @Deyan -- I'm in if someone else will be the the primary recipient and US-side distributor.  My schedule is just too hectic to be the point-man and I'd likely further hold-up things after they arrive.
> 
> Thanks!!



Cool.  I can be the point man unless someone else wants to.  We need to take this to PM...would someone mind starting one with the involved people (I'm at work and difficult to do on my phone).


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll do that ...


----------



## Deyan

I already did


----------



## Paladin79

sfleming said:


> I've got nowhere near enough room on my amp to fit 2x 6J5s and an adapter on the socket. Probably a good thing since this thread already has me looking to spend my money. Seriously though this thread is fantastic.


I designed an amp that is intended to bring out the sound of the 6sn7 and I left a lot of space so I can use various 6sn7 equivalents that can be hidden under a metal box. My first attempts were disguising the tubes inside PVC pipe but that only allowed for the more common tube shapes to be used. The Psvanes and single triode tubes were out of the question.


Here are eight I concealed for a tube shootout at Schiit, I even made my own octal extenders so no tube pins or bases were showing. Four of these are on the way to @JKDJedi so he can assess the sound without knowing brand, he should have them Monday. I also made them identical cables and sent along switch boxes so they could easily switch between four tubes.


----------



## jambaj0e

Just upgraded my 6SN7 tubes from the Psvane CV181-T Mark II tubes to the legendary NOS Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Base tubes, and holy cow!! Well worth the $500 for the pair, especially as NOS!

Compared to the CV181-T IIs the 6SN7W metal base tubes are just heavenly on my Cayin HA-300 tubes (with Psvane ACME 300b tubes). Just much more air, soundstage, and purer sound. The Psvane CV181-T Mark II are good tubes, but these are fantastic tubes!


----------



## JKDJedi

jambaj0e said:


> Just upgraded my 6SN7 tubes from the Psvane CV181-T Mark II tubes to the legendary NOS Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Base tubes, and holy cow!! Well worth the $500 for the pair, especially as NOS!
> 
> Compared to the CV181-T IIs the 6SN7W metal base tubes are just heavenly on my Cayin HA-300 tubes (with Psvane ACME 300b tubes). Just much more air, soundstage, and purer sound. The Psvane CV181-T Mark II are good tubes, but these are fantastic tubes!


Excellent Grab...Congrats!!


----------



## Wes S

jambaj0e said:


> Just upgraded my 6SN7 tubes from the Psvane CV181-T Mark II tubes to the legendary NOS Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Base tubes, and holy cow!! Well worth the $500 for the pair, especially as NOS!
> 
> Compared to the CV181-T IIs the 6SN7W metal base tubes are just heavenly on my Cayin HA-300 tubes (with Psvane ACME 300b tubes). Just much more air, soundstage, and purer sound. The Psvane CV181-T Mark II are good tubes, but these are fantastic tubes!


Nice!  Those look mint!


----------



## bcowen

jambaj0e said:


> Just upgraded my 6SN7 tubes from the Psvane CV181-T Mark II tubes to the legendary NOS Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Base tubes, and holy cow!! Well worth the $500 for the pair, especially as NOS!
> 
> Compared to the CV181-T IIs the 6SN7W metal base tubes are just heavenly on my Cayin HA-300 tubes (with Psvane ACME 300b tubes). Just much more air, soundstage, and purer sound. The Psvane CV181-T Mark II are good tubes, but these are fantastic tubes!



Nice!!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Well, not to beat on a dead horse, and only because I never did get a clear answer elsewhere, I have a VT231 Clear Glass Ken Rad (1943 probably) that has the innards of a Sylvania. o,O 

To get a hands on comparison, I just received a 1945 Clear Glass VT231 Ken Rad with the normal staggered (ribbed for her pleasure) plates. 

Someone did the (base) switcheroo or what!? 

I know GE bought Ken RAd at some point, but the insides are clearly Sylvania...


----------



## Ripper2860

Swapping a base would not a difficult thing to do, but it is also possible that KR had an OEM agreement with Sylvania to fulfill a contract for 6SN7 tubes.  Since I've never seen one before, I'm going to go with base switcheroo.  Plus it sounds more nefarious and devious.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Swapping a base would not a difficult thing to do, but it is also possible that KR had an OEM agreement with Sylvania to fulfill a contract for 6SN7 tubes.  Since I've never seen one before, I'm going to go with base switcheroo.  Plus it sounds more nefarious and devious.


Curses!! I knew it!!


----------



## Ranger Ron

JKDJedi said:


> Well, not to beat on a dead horse, and only because I never did get a clear answer elsewhere, I have a VT231 Clear Glass Ken Rad (1943 probably) that has the innards of a Sylvania. o,O
> 
> To get a hands on comparison, I just received a 1945 Clear Glass VT231 Ken Rad with the normal staggered (ribbed for her pleasure) plates.
> 
> ...


It is all about the innards!! I have a tung sol BGRP that is labeled Ken Rad.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Ranger Ron said:


> It is all about the innards!! I have a tung sol BGRP that is labeled Ken Rad.


And a sylvania short bottle 6SN7W labeled TungSol!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ranger Ron said:


> And a sylvania short bottle 6SN7W labeled TungSol!!


How does that happen... Lol! In the words of Bob Marley... 

You can fool some people sometimes,
But you can't fool all the people all the time.


Jah .........Jah.    ......

Get up...... Stand up ..........stand up for your rights.......


----------



## cddc (Dec 26, 2021)

nvm.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Hey everybody, I'm looking for a 6sn7 recommendation.

I recently received an adapter from @Deyan to use the 6sn7 in place of the 12au7 in my Bottlehead Crack.

I'm using HD800(no mods) headphones and I'm looking for a 6sn7 that is quite warm.  A tube that maybe eschews treble for bass & mid-range would be helpful.  

Any thoughts?  Budget of $100ish...

Power tube is the 6as7g Soviet Winged 'C'.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 21, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody, I'm looking for a 6sn7 recommendation.
> 
> I recently received an adapter from @Deyan to use the 6sn7 in place of the 12au7 in my Bottlehead Crack.
> 
> ...


Sylvania 6SN7GT gets my vote. Late 40's to early 50's    National Union Grey Glass VT231 is another.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 21, 2020)

I could not find a single tube but here is a pair..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6SN7gt...627306?hash=item56ddc1682a:g:u7MAAOSwc5JeI2-x

I have built and modified some BH Cracks in my day and this is one of my favorite tubes for well under $100. It has also done extremely well in blind tests in which I  have  participated or conducted. A great tube is the Ken-Rad black glass VT 231 that was always near the top in said tests.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7GT-VT-...595221?hash=item2895e66155:g:tPEAAOSwyKhe4jg7

I really like Sylvania tubes over all but even the Bad Boy never did real well in blind testing with small or large groups. An extremely good tube is the Melz 1578 and occasionally you can find them at $100 or under. I tend to buy them in bulk so I consistently beat the $100 price with a trusted seller but last time I checked, he was running low on my favorite 1963 version. Oftentimes if you get to know a seller and he avoids Ebay you can save because of the fees they charge.

This has all the attributes of a proper Melz 1578, and the seller states it is a 63, it looks very good but I do not know the seller but $120-$130 each is generally the price on this tube.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-MELZ-6...434383?hash=item3da4c5d80f:g:5tEAAOSwe~Ze3mRR


----------



## Wes S (Jun 21, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody, I'm looking for a 6sn7 recommendation.
> 
> I recently received an adapter from @Deyan to use the 6sn7 in place of the 12au7 in my Bottlehead Crack.
> 
> ...


The RCA 6SN7GT Grey Glass from 40's, would fit the bill, and is the warmest 6SN7 ever made.  If it were me, I would start with this one as it has the most of what you are looking for and will give you the biggest difference and then work you way up from there, to slightly brighter tubes, like the National Union Grey Glass, and Sylvania 6SN7GT after the National Union, if wanting slightly more top end.


----------



## Ranger Ron

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody, I'm looking for a 6sn7 recommendation.
> 
> I recently received an adapter from @Deyan to use the 6sn7 in place of the 12au7 in my Bottlehead Crack.
> 
> ...


I second the RCA vote. The black glass national union is another to consider, much easier to find than the earlier grey glass NU. Also worth considering is a Brimar. Buying from the U.K. they can be had for under $100. Clear or black glass.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 21, 2020)

I showed a link for the 1942, my favorite year for the RCA grey glass. Unfortunately I could not find a good single tube at this time so I mentioned a pair of them.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 21, 2020)

Ranger Ron said:


> I second the RCA vote. The black glass national union is another to consider, much easier to find than the earlier grey glass NU. Also worth considering is a Brimar. Buying from the U.K. they can be had for under $100. Clear or black glass.


Brimar is definitely a great suggestion and one of my favs.  They are a little bit more forward sounding in the mids/highs and with deeper bass than the RCA grey glass.  The Brimar are a little harder to get, but I just saw a black glass Brimar sell for $80 on eBay the other day, so if you are patient they can be found for reasonable amounts.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Wes S said:


> Brimar is definitely a great suggestion and one of my favs.  They are a little bit cooler/forward sounding in the mids/highs and with deeper bass than the RCA grey glass.  The Brimar are a little harder to get, but I just saw a black glass Brimar sell for $80 on eBay the other day, so if you are patient they can be found for reasonable amounts.


Absolutely. I think they have superior instrument separation as well.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Wes S said:


> The RCA 6SN7GT Grey Glass from 40's, would fit the bill, and is the warmest 6SN7 ever made.  If it were me, I would start with this one as it has the most of what you are looking for and will give you the biggest difference and then work you way up from there, to slightly brighter tubes, like the National Union Grey Glass, and Sylvania 6SN7GT after the National Union, if wanting slightly more top end.



It sounds like the RCA grey glass that Wes and @Paladin79 referenced gets the vote.  It is warmth I'm going for, so I will start there.

Thanks for all the recommendations!  I'm sure that I will end up picking up a couple others that were recommended, too.  It just gets so tempting to click 'buy it now.'

As a reference point, I'm currently using a Westinghouse Voice of Music 12au7 that is fairly warm and have enjoyed that, but am looking to go even a bit warmer to balance the brightness of the HD800.

I bought a new production tung-sol to test with @Deyan adapter, but even after giving it some time, I'm not really a fan of the sound. It has a bit too much emphasis on the top end.  I knew that tube would be just OK and am looking forward to hearing this 6sn7 lushness I hear people describe.

The tung sol tube:
httpsss://reverb.com/item/20659271-tung-sol-6sn7gtb-audiophile-preamp-tube-brand-new-with-full-warranty


----------



## Ranger Ron

PsilocybinCube said:


> It sounds like the RCA grey glass that Wes and @Paladin79 referenced gets the vote.  It is warmth I'm going for, so I will start there.
> 
> Thanks for all the recommendations!  I'm sure that I will end up picking up a couple others that were recommended, too.  It just gets so tempting to click 'buy it now.'
> 
> ...


That Westinghouse 12au7 is a great tube. I think you will be very happy with the RCA. I still roll it in as often as any other. Good luck!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> To get a hands on comparison, I just received a 1945 Clear Glass VT231 Ken Rad with the normal staggered (ribbed for her pleasure) plates.



Wait....the ribs are for _*her*_ pleasure?  Then hell if I'm spending more on those from now on.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I showed a link for the 1942, my favorite year for the RCA grey glass. Unfortunately I could not find a good single tube at this time so I mentioned a pair of them.


I bought those specific tubes you linked... I will let you know how it works out!


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> I bought those specific tubes you linked... I will let you know how it works out!


Sounds good, good luck with those.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Looking at the Ken Rad tubes (and others) there is a huge price difference in clear vs. black glass.  What are the sound differences between the two iterations?  And does anyone know the history of why they did it this way going back to the 40s and 50s?  I realize this is a newbie question...


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Looking at the Ken Rad tubes (and others) there is a huge price difference in clear vs. black glass.  What are the sound differences between the two iterations?  And does anyone know the history of why they did it this way going back to the 40s and 50s?  I realize this is a newbie question...


I have both and it's a very good question...following. The black glass seems to have the crisper high end, and I'm curious what the heck is the black portion of the glass, carbon, paint?


----------



## cddc (Jun 21, 2020)

The black paint is carbon, and is used to absorb free electrons escaping from the cathodes which are supposed to be captured by anodes.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> I have both and it's a very good question...following. The *black glass seems to have the crisper high end*, and I'm curious what the heck is the black portion of the glass, carbon, paint?


I am listening to black glass Ken Rad VT231's right now, and despite their reputation as bass-stellar, I am very impressed with the crispness and extension of top end, not fatiguing though. Don't have clear glass version to compare, but @JKDJedi's comments about the crisp high end are spot on as far as my ears can tell.


----------



## Paladin79

I have not compared this list to my tube books but it appears to be a decent description of some of the RCA and Sylvania 6sn7 types.

http://vintagetubeservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Master-Stock-List-Octal-Tubes.pdf  A very good explanation of the RCA 5692's for sure.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Well, I ordered the nicer RCA tubes @Paladin79 recommended in addition to a Ken-Rad tube and a grab bag of 7 'Bad-Boy' tubes that were cheap (and some of them probably won't work).

With that, I do need to some sincere audiophile advice.

How do I explain to my wife that I 'needed' a total of *10 *separate 6sn7 tubes to try out with my new @Deyan adapter when these show up???  Is this relationship advice?  Or audiophile advice?  Or are those ultimately the same?


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well, I ordered the nicer RCA tubes @Paladin79 recommended in addition to a Ken-Rad tube and a grab bag of 7 'Bad-Boy' tubes that were cheap (and some of them probably won't work).
> 
> With that, I do need to some sincere audiophile advice.
> 
> How do I explain to my wife that I 'needed' a total of *10 *separate 6sn7 tubes to try out with my new @Deyan adapter when these show up???  Is this relationship advice?  Or audiophile advice?  Or are those ultimately the same?



They'll give up after awhile. 🤣🤣. 

You can resell the ones you don't want, so there's that. 

And it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Perfectly normal to want to scratch an sniff these tubes. No wait....


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well, I ordered the nicer RCA tubes @Paladin79 recommended in addition to a Ken-Rad tube and a grab bag of 7 'Bad-Boy' tubes that were cheap (and some of them probably won't work).
> 
> With that, I do need to some sincere audiophile advice.
> 
> How do I explain to my wife that I 'needed' a total of *10 *separate 6sn7 tubes to try out with my new @Deyan adapter when these show up???  Is this relationship advice?  Or audiophile advice?  Or are those ultimately the same?


How about this, I could send you say fifteen tubes as a gift, and you can just say that is how people are in the tube world and then it is not so much about money, and ten is a smaller number than fifteen and you can make her a hero and ask her what you might do with all these tubes?

You do have a tube tester I hope. You are not going to just plug tubes in and hope for the best right?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> How about this, I could send you say fifteen tubes as a gift, and you can just say that is how people are in the tube world and then it is not so much about money, and ten is a smaller number than fifteen and you can make her a hero and ask her what you might do with all these tubes?
> 
> You do have a tube tester I hope. You are not going to just plug tubes in and hope for the best right?


Uhhh...call me a rookie.  I am.  I've been a solid state guy mostly.

No, my tester is my Bottlehead Crack.  Is a tube going to explode and leave glass shards in my face???  And where might I buy/find a tester?


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Uhhh...call me a rookie.  I am.  I've been a solid state guy mostly.
> 
> No, my tester is my Bottlehead Crack.  Is a tube going to explode and leave glass shards in my face???  And where might I buy/find a tester?


Wait  .I thought you got your adapter already?


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Uhhh...call me a rookie.  I am.  I've been a solid state guy mostly.
> 
> No, my tester is my Bottlehead Crack.  Is a tube going to explode and leave glass shards in my face???  And where might I buy/find a tester?


They are not cheap but I know @bcowen rebuilds all types and he is usually pretty reasonable. He is very finicky, like one of my cats, so you can rest assured it would be in proper working order.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Wait  .I thought you got your adapter already?


I do have the adapter.  I thought he was referring to a tester as a something that tests the tube BEFORE putting it in the amp.
The new production Tung-Sol 6sn7 tube I bought works fine in the adapter.


----------



## Ripper2860

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well, I ordered the nicer RCA tubes @Paladin79 recommended in addition to a Ken-Rad tube and a grab bag of 7 'Bad-Boy' tubes that were cheap (and some of them probably won't work).
> 
> With that, I do need to some sincere audiophile advice.
> 
> How do I explain to my wife that I 'needed' a total of *10 *separate 6sn7 tubes to try out with my new @Deyan adapter when these show up???  Is this relationship advice?  Or audiophile advice?  Or are those ultimately the same?



This worked for me ...

"Hey, honey!!  Great news!!  I've finally beaten that nasty phone sex addiction you knew nothing about and replaced it with a much more benign and less expensive vacuum tube addiction.   Woohoo!!"   

(Always glad to be of assistance to my HF buddies.)


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I do have the adapter.  I thought he was referring to a tester as a something that tests the tube BEFORE putting it in the amp.
> The new production Tung-Sol 6sn7 tube I bought works fine in the adapter.


I thought the was kidding.... He's not! Well, I didn't know that about Mr @bcowen .. I've been flirting with the idea for a tester myself. Think he's upset with me though, hasn't answered my PM in awhile. Was it something I said!? ,☹️


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 22, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> I do have the adapter.  I thought he was referring to a tester as a something that tests the tube BEFORE putting it in the amp.
> The new production Tung-Sol 6sn7 tube I bought works fine in the adapter.


Yes an adapter is not a tube tester. If you do not get a proper tester for dealing with unknown tubes I can help by repairing the Crack if it goes up in smoke lol. I have a lot of original parts laying around I never used in my builds.


The blue box in the left part of the photo contains a B&K tube tester.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> Yes an adapter is not a tube tester. If you do not get a proper tester for dealing with unknown tubes I can help by repairing the Crack if it goes up in smoke lol. I have a lot of original parts laying around I never used in my builds.


Oh damn.  Is that quarter-sawn white oak with an oil finish?  Pretty amp.

I already had my BHC go up in smoke one time...but that was due to a bad adapter.  I'd prefer not to suffer that fate twice.

Is there a cheap tester that is widely recommended?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 22, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Oh damn.  Is that quarter-sawn white oak with an oil finish?  Pretty amp.
> 
> I already had my BHC go up in smoke one time...but that was due to a bad adapter.  I'd prefer not to suffer that fate twice.
> 
> Is there a cheap tester that is widely recommended?


I did that during my steampunk period and I am about to do another. That is indeed quarter sawn oak with a Danish oil finish, 1/8 inch copper plates that I patinated. You can find much of my work with Cracks if you do a Google photo search for Steampunk Bottlehead Crack. At this time 8 of the first 9 images are my work.



Something like this would at least let you know if the tubes are safe to use, and let you know emission and such. Unless you are buying NOS or know the seller, you best get one of these for maybe $250 if you shop around. This one came from a college and it probably sat on a shelf for 20 years lol.


----------



## tafens

PsilocybinCube said:


> Uhhh...call me a rookie.  I am.  I've been a solid state guy mostly.
> 
> No, my tester is my Bottlehead Crack.  Is a tube going to explode and leave glass shards in my face???  And where might I buy/find a tester?



I use a multimeter  to check for shorts between all pins and that the heater pins have the appropriate resistance (1.5 ohms seems to be about right).

I seriously would like to have a real tester though, are there any DIY kit testers available that are not as expensive and has a shipping cost that is less than the tester itself? A tester that can do 6SN7 and 6DJ8 family tubes would suffice for me.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

This is dirt cheap and looks like it could do the trick...

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/acc...QuB6PBeNH7_-I1QTdjsOEWnvBxMD_pj4aAgAyEALw_wcB


----------



## JKDJedi

tafens said:


> I use a multimeter  to check for shorts between all pins and that the heater pins have the appropriate resistance (1.5 ohms seems to be about right).
> 
> I seriously would like to have a real tester though, are there any DIY kit testers available that are not as expensive and has a shipping cost that is less than the tester itself? A tester that can do 6SN7 and 6DJ8 family tubes would suffice for me.


My tester is that little fuse in the back, if it doesn't blow, I m good! 🤣


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> My tester is that little fuse in the back, if it doesn't blow, I m good! 🤣


Great idea! Now hurry and ship the Incubus to someone else so I can sleep at night.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Great idea! Now hurry and ship the Incubus to someone else so I can sleep at night.


She's packed away nicely. Was tempted to unbox her last night for one last listen.


----------



## Paladin79

I am kidding of course, you have been most careful. 

Here are some tubes I just received, a nice round black plate.
 Bottom getter.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am kidding of course, you have been most careful.
> 
> Here are some tubes I just received, a nice round black plate. Bottom getter.


Those look amazing, wow. 6J5?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Those look amazing, wow. 6J5?


Nope, they were in with a large group of tubes I just purchased, dual triode but I do not want to give out much more info until I listen and buy more if available.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 23, 2020)

They look Russian to me. Or Not given the stop-sign logo.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Nope, they were in with a large group of tubes I just purchased, dual triode but I do not want to give out much more info until I listen and buy more if available.


Lol... Your gonna hoard on them before sharing.. we'll save me one for later purchase.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> They look Russian to me. Or Not given the stop-sign logo.



Well I can certainly agree they are Russian or not Russian, or American or not, or British or not. How about Canadian or Italian?


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm going to stand firm on likely not Russian.  I'll also go out on a limb and definitely rule out Belgium Congo and Minnesota.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm going to stand firm on likely not Russian.  I'll also go out on a limb and definitely rule out Belgium Congo and Minnesota.


They look like RCA 6SL7's to me...


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm going to stand firm on likely not Russian.  I'll also go out on a limb and definitely rule out Belgium Congo and Minnesota.


Oh and I am only offered these in matched pairs at this time.


----------



## Paladin79

Ranger Ron said:


> They look like RCA 6SL7's to me...


I do have some of those in my collection and you are correct that they look like them.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Paladin79 said:


> I do have some of those in my collection and you are correct that they look like them.


Oh man, even juicier then!


----------



## Ripper2860

Definitely RCA -- I can see some of the 'meatball' logo on the left tube.


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Jun 23, 2020)

When you see a post like the one below...I suppose this is what you want a tube tester for, right?  I'm tempted to buy these, but I don't want to fry my BHC:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-VINTAGE...228942?hash=item217162eb4e:g:uQQAAOSwB5Fe7Zsd

Also if I buy these, that would be about 20 6sn7's i'd have purchased since receiving @Deyan adapter.  That does seem like overkill since I got the adapter on Saturday.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> When you see a post like the one below...I suppose this is what you want a tube tester for, right?  I'm tempted to buy these, but I don't want to fry my BHC:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-VINTAGE...228942?hash=item217162eb4e:g:uQQAAOSwB5Fe7Zsd
> 
> Also if I buy these, that would be about 20 6sn7's i'd have purchased since receiving @Deyan adapter.  That does seem like overkill since I got the adapter on Saturday.


I only see four tubes in there worth grabbing and they do seem to be tested. Unless the numbers below them are for show. From the pics, I wouldn't touch these. Guy doesn't even know what they're for.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> I only see four tubes in there worth grabbing and they do seem to be tested. Unless the numbers below them are for show. From the pics, I wouldn't touch these. Guy doesn't even know what they're for.


I thought it was hilarious he said he didn't know what they were for.  It would take about 90 seconds of Google searching to know what they are for.


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> When you see a post like the one below...I suppose this is what you want a tube tester for, right?  I'm tempted to buy these, but I don't want to fry my BHC:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-VINTAGE...228942?hash=item217162eb4e:g:uQQAAOSwB5Fe7Zsd
> 
> Also if I buy these, that would be about 20 6sn7's i'd have purchased since receiving @Deyan adapter.  That does seem like overkill since I got the adapter on Saturday.




These tubes seem to have been tested and measured on a tester. The numbers look like micromhos. A 100% NOS 6SN7 should have 2600 micromhos on both sections. 

So some of these tubes are tested pretty low and unbalanced.


----------



## cddc (Jun 23, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> My tester is that little fuse in the back, if it doesn't blow, I m good! 🤣



Smart idea, if you don't have a tester, the fuse in your amp is your last defence against shorted tubes. Should buy tested tubes from reliable sources in the first place.


----------



## cddc

Paladin79 said:


> I am kidding of course, you have been most careful.
> 
> Here are some tubes I just received, a nice round black plate. Bottom getter.




These tubes look very interesting. I have never seen any 6SN7 like them.

I see "6S?? GT" on the glass, that should rule out Russian tubes. Russians would have used 6N?? or 6H??. So they should be American tubes. 6SL7 is a safe bet as they normally come with round plates.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I thought it was hilarious he said he didn't know what they were for.  It would take about 90 seconds of Google searching to know what they are for.


Did you build your own Crack?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 23, 2020)

cddc said:


> These tubes look very interesting. I have never seen any 6SN7 like them.
> 
> I see "6S?? GT" on the glass, that should rule out Russian tubes. Russians would have used 6N?? or 6H??. So they should be American tubes. 6SL7 is a safe bet as they normally come with round plates.


👍👍


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> These tubes look very interesting. I have never seen any 6SN7 like them.
> 
> I see "6S?? GT" on the glass, that should rule out Russian tubes. Russians would have used 6N?? or 6H??. So they should be American tubes. 6SL7 is a safe bet as they normally come with round plates.


Normally that is true, but I was a bit vague about some things. There are only six of these in existence and they were constructed with existing product. I was joking about buying more, these are on line to my audiophile group for a tube challenge. There will never be a price established since they will never be for sale.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Normally that is true, but I was a bit vague about some things. There are only six of these in existence and they were constructed with existing product. I was joking about buying more, these are on line to my audiophile group for a tube challenge. There will never be a price established since they will never be for sale.


----------



## Paladin79

That should read on loan, I am on my phone and cannot edit.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Did you build your own Crack?


No, I bought second hand and have made a couple of small mods.  I was previously a SS guy.

I'm about to buy a BHC or Mainline (or other tube amp) setup for my office setup.  I want to build one from scratch after getting a taste of tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> No, I bought second hand and have made a couple of small mods.  I was previously a SS guy.
> 
> I'm about to buy a BHC or Mainline (or other tube amp) setup for my office setup.  I want to build one from scratch after getting a taste of tubes.


I'm tempted the same. Price is right and seems cheaper to do the upgrades on your own as your learning.


----------



## bcowen

Ranger Ron said:


> They look like RCA 6SL7's to me...



Agree.  With clear glass and round plates they are 6SL7's.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Agree.  With clear glass and round plates they are 6SL7's.


Not these sorry. They are one of three sets of tubes created by a friends grandfather and they do not fit within common knowledge you would find in RCA manuals. Three different types of plates but all with 6sn7 gain. The other two pairs would really confuse you but they will not be part of our tube challenge. I bought a lot more tubes for the challenge and those not used were dropped off at my place as well as these cause we are stuck at home right now. There is no value placed on them because they will not come up for sale, just a family thing.


----------



## bcowen

Guys, as far as tube testers, I would HIGHLY strongly, and emphatically suggest you DO NOT buy tubes on Ebay from unknown sellers without one. Case in point: I just received two Chatham 6AS7G's from an Ebay seller.  Seller stated they both "tested good".  Stuck the first one in my tester, and it pegged the needle showing a dead short between the heater and cathode for triode 1.  I don't know what would have happened to the Incubus had I stuck a shorted tube in it, and quite honestly I'm glad I didn't have to find out.  The other tube tested fine, and the seller is refunding half my money.  But what if I had stuck that tube in the Incubus (or any other amp) and blew it up?  Think the seller would pay for repairs?  Yeah, like not.  

There are new testers out there, but not cheap (at least the ones I'm aware of).  There's the Amplitrex at $3k+, and the Maximatcher at $1k+ (with needed adapters) as a couple examples.  On the positive side, these are very capable and accurate testers and being new and fully solid state, they should serve well for many many years.  For lower price points, you're into vintage testers.  Many are quite capable, but these testers are also 50+ years old and almost every single one of them needs work -- at minimum the electrolytic caps need replaced and they need calibrated.  Not an expensive proposition if that's ALL they need. But if you get one with a bad transformer or a bad meter, it's dumpster fodder as finding replacements is a needle in a haystack kind of thing.  There are also emission testers and mutual conductance testers, the latter being better for the 9-pin and small octal tubes we use in audio, but also more complicated and more expensive.  One good suggestion right off the bat for a tester that will screen out bad and shorted tubes without spending a huge amount of money are the Sencore Mighty Mites.  These are small, fairly simple, emission only testers with limited information about the tube but have a very sensitive shorts and (interelement) leakage detection circuit and will give you a decent idea of the overall output of the tube and help keep you from killing a component with a shorted tube.  There are versions with internal tubes and ones that are fully solid state, but again even these will need caps replaced and calibration performed.  That's just one suggestion...lots of others out there too. I've rebuilt probably around 50 vintage testers at this point with pretty good success on getting repairable ones, but I've also gotten stuck with a few duds that couldn't be repaired. They have become organ donors.   I'm happy to help with shared knowledge and what to look for, but please don't send me 15 Ebay links and then 30 separate PM's on whether a particular tester will test 'X' tube (yes, already got worn out on that routine).  

Below is a great resource for old tester info.  If you see a tester you're interested in, find it here, look through the tube data for it, and see if any particular tube you want to test has settings listed for it. If it does, cool....if not, keep looking.

http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Not these sorry. They are one of three sets of tubes created by a friends grandfather and they do not fit within common knowledge you would find in RCA manuals. Three different types of plates but all with 6sn7 gain. The other two pairs would really confuse you but they will not be part of our tube challenge. I bought a lot more tubes for the challenge and those not used were dropped off at my place as well as these cause we are stuck at home right now. There is no value placed on them because they will not come up for sale, just a family thing.



You should probably send them to me for evaluation.  That would be prudent.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should probably send them to me for evaluation.  That would be prudent.


How shall I say this? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I was just messing around with that photo and knew the responses I would get, Ripper was really confused, so I tortured him a bit before explaining what was up.. Four plants made tubes for RCA, most were on the east coast, one was in Indianapolis. I got to know the son of the engineer who made those tubes, and the grandson. I was a little shocked to see them show up at my place but others had heard them in the Incubus and it was my turn I suppose and a considerable honor. Sometimes when you cast your bread upon the waters, it returns to you.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 23, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I was just messing around with that photo and knew the responses I would get, Ripper was really confused, so I tortured him a bit before explaining what was up.



NP.  I exist merely for the enjoyment of others.   



Paladin79 said:


> Sometimes when you cast your bread upon the waters, it returns to you.



Hmmmmm.  I suppose that's good thing if one likes their bread soggy.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I exist merely for the enjoyment of others.


Everyone needs a hobby.

It was also an object lesson for those wondering how a Tung Sol tube might have been made by Sylvania, etc. When many of the tubes were produced, they were just a disposable item and not super expensive. 60 years later when you buy such things, you may or may not understand the history behind it and only so much history and documentation out there. At times manufacturers ran out of parts, or they could not meet a deadline and they called upon other companies. There was also a time, because of patent rights, that RCA built every tube television made or had the rights to such production. Companies merge, some go out of business.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Nope, they were in with a large group of tubes I just purchased, dual triode but I do not want to give out much more info until I listen and buy more if available.



Teaser.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well I can certainly agree they are Russian or not Russian, or American or not, or British or not. How about Canadian or Italian?



Probably none of the above.  I'm guessing you were playing around with your new 3D printer.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Teaser.


Sorry I was bored and just messing around. These are pretty good sounding tubes but not something I would listen to for a long period, cause they need to go back to the owner. I only gave four amps and maybe 20 tubes to friends so maybe I deserve hearing these tubes.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I thought it was hilarious he said he didn't know what they were for.  It would take about 90 seconds of Google searching to know what they are for.



Chances are also pretty good his tester was last calibrated in 1962, and chances are even greater he doesn't have a clue how to use it. But oh SO hard to pass up all those GE's.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I was bored and just messing around. These are pretty good sounding tubes but not something I would listen to for a long period, cause they need to go back to the owner. I only gave four amps and maybe 20 tubes to friends for a tube challenge, so maybe I deserve hearing these tubes.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I thought the was kidding.... He's not! Well, I didn't know that about Mr @bcowen .. I've been flirting with the idea for a tester myself. Think he's upset with me though, hasn't answered my PM in awhile. Was it something I said!? ,☹



No, it's your deodorant. Consider giving Right Guard a try.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> No, it's your deodorant. Consider giving Right Guard a try.


Bill has some ways about him and he probably should not be in customer service, but once he realizes he might be able to sell a tube tester, he will settle down and realize he is costing himself money. Just give him some time, two or three years seems appropriate.Things move slower in the south but if you mention North Carolina basketball or bar-b-cue sauce he will be your friend for life.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill has some ways about him and he probably should not be in customer service, but once he realizes he might be able to sell a tube tester, he will settle down and realize he is costing himself money. Just give him some time, two or three years seems appropriate.Things move slower in the south but if you mention North Carolina basketball or bar-b-cue sauce he will be your friend for life.



I'm pretty confident I could change the entire face of customer service within a very short period of time.  Nobody would ever call again figuring a damaged, malfunctioning or totally inoperable item with missing parts was preferable to making_* that *_phone call. Even for deodorant failures.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Guys, as far as tube testers, I would HIGHLY strongly, and emphatically suggest you DO NOT buy tubes on Ebay from unknown sellers without one. Case in point: I just received two Chatham 6AS7G's from an Ebay seller.  Seller stated they both "tested good".  Stuck the first one in my tester, and it pegged the needle showing a dead short between the heater and cathode for triode 1.  I don't know what would have happened to the Incubus had I stuck a shorted tube in it, and quite honestly I'm glad I didn't have to find out.  The other tube tested fine, and the seller is refunding half my money.  But what if I had stuck that tube in the Incubus (or any other amp) and blew it up?  Think the seller would pay for repairs?  Yeah, like not.
> 
> There are new testers out there, but not cheap (at least the ones I'm aware of).  There's the Amplitrex at $3k+, and the Maximatcher at $1k+ (with needed adapters) as a couple examples.  On the positive side, these are very capable and accurate testers and being new and fully solid state, they should serve well for many many years.  For lower price points, you're into vintage testers.  Many are quite capable, but these testers are also 50+ years old and almost every single one of them needs work -- at minimum the electrolytic caps need replaced and they need calibrated.  Not an expensive proposition if that's ALL they need. But if you get one with a bad transformer or a bad meter, it's dumpster fodder as finding replacements is a needle in a haystack kind of thing.  There are also emission testers and mutual conductance testers, the latter being better for the 9-pin and small octal tubes we use in audio, but also more complicated and more expensive.  One good suggestion right off the bat for a tester that will screen out bad and shorted tubes without spending a huge amount of money are the Sencore Mighty Mites.  These are small, fairly simple, emission only testers with limited information about the tube but have a very sensitive shorts and (interelement) leakage detection circuit and will give you a decent idea of the overall output of the tube and help keep you from killing a component with a shorted tube.  There are versions with internal tubes and ones that are fully solid state, but again even these will need caps replaced and calibration performed.  That's just one suggestion...lots of others out there too. I've rebuilt probably around 50 vintage testers at this point with pretty good success on getting repairable ones, but I've also gotten stuck with a few duds that couldn't be repaired. They have become organ donors.   I'm happy to help with shared knowledge and what to look for, but please don't send me 15 Ebay links and then 30 separate PM's on whether a particular tester will test 'X' tube (yes, already got worn out on that routine).
> 
> ...


Oops...just read this.. disregard all the eBay links sent... 🤣


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Oops...just read this.. disregard all the eBay links sent... 🤣


I buy there all the time and received a dud power tube a couple weeks back. I got a new one and an apology soon after. The gentleman was wanting to make his own tube amps so I had some leverage. Otherwise I have had pretty good luck.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Oops...just read this.. disregard all the eBay links sent... 🤣



I deleted them all after I saw the first link you sent.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I buy there all the time and received a dud power tube a couple weeks back. I got a new one and an apology soon after. The gentleman was wanting to make his own tube amps so I had some leverage. Otherwise I have had pretty good luck.



Yeah, I'm still sorry about that.  I meant to send that tube to @Ripper2860 .


----------



## Ripper2860

I knew it was a Tung-Sol, I was just playing along.


----------



## tafens

JKDJedi said:


> I only see four tubes in there worth grabbing and they do seem to be tested. Unless the numbers below them are for show. From the pics, I wouldn't touch these. Guy doesn't even know what they're for.



Interestingly, while not knowing what they’re for, he managed to test them (or did he really?)


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Well, now I'm very freaked out about buying tubes online.  I suppose I should be though, it sounds like.

I'll have to keep my eyes out for a tester that won't break the bank.


----------



## cddc

tafens said:


> Interestingly, while not knowing what they’re for, he managed to test them (or did he really?)



Maybe the labels came with the tubes when he got them, and he knew nothing about them...


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well, now I'm very freaked out about buying tubes online.  I suppose I should be though, it sounds like.
> 
> I'll have to keep my eyes out for a tester that won't break the bank.



No worries, the fuse in your amp will protect your amp against shorts. If you're really concerned about shorted tubes, using a multimeter to measure shorts among tube pins (as per @tafens) is a neat idea.


----------



## Ranger Ron

cddc said:


> Maybe the labels came with the tubes when he got them, and he knew nothing about them...


That is what I think too. I'm glad he's selling what he's found. I unfortunately missed out on four tubes he sold a week ago. Three rare sylvania types that were labeled Raytheon. Tall bottle full of chrome but with these strange oval marks in the flashing.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ranger Ron said:


> That is what I think too. I'm glad he's selling what he's found. I unfortunately missed out on four tubes he sold a week ago. Three rare sylvania types that were labeled Raytheon. Tall bottle full of chrome but with these strange oval marks in the flashing.


FOMO causes me to


cddc said:


> No worries, the fuse in your amp will protect your amp against shorts. If you're really concerned about shorted tubes, using a multimeter to measure shorts among tube pins (as per @tafens) is a neat idea.


Good call.  I think that the fuse combined with prudent tube purchases will probably keep you OK most of the time.  That said, I might buy one of these inexpensive tube testers online.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

This tester is a bit of an investment, but not too bad considering how much money we all spend on hi-fi gear...
https://www.adorama.com/orvt1000.ht...yk_UWTbcxqxoC6TkQAvD_BwE&utm_source=adl-gbase

Thoughts?  Anybody tried this specific tester?


----------



## Ranger Ron

PsilocybinCube said:


> This tester is a bit of an investment, but not too bad considering how much money we all spend on hi-fi gear...
> https://www.adorama.com/orvt1000.ht...yk_UWTbcxqxoC6TkQAvD_BwE&utm_source=adl-gbase
> 
> Thoughts?  Anybody tried this specific tester?


I don't think that tester tests 6sn7...


----------



## JKDJedi

All this chatter about testers... Buy one then look at it wondering how to use the thing.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ranger Ron said:


> I don't think that tester tests 6sn7...


Screw it.  The fuse is my tester.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Screw it.  The fuse is my tester.


🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂😂


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Screw it.  The fuse is my tester.



You don't have to use fuse to test shorts. Use a multimeter to measure continuity between tube pins, if you hear beeps there is a short (the continuity between 2 filament pins is normal, it's not a short).


----------



## cddc

Ranger Ron said:


> That is what I think too. I'm glad he's selling what he's found. I unfortunately missed out on four tubes he sold a week ago. Three rare sylvania types that were labeled Raytheon. Tall bottle full of chrome but with these strange oval marks in the flashing.




Just checked that guy, he has lots of antique stuff selling for cheap. His prices on some antique lighters seem pretty good. His tubes...meh...tested too low.


----------



## Ranger Ron

cddc said:


> Just checked that guy, he has lots of antique stuff selling for cheap. His prices on some antique lighters seem pretty good. His tubes...meh...tested too low.


Yeah, I just fell victim to the TV/7 test that was talked about here a few days ago. Put it on my Jackson 648 and am not too pleased with the results given what I paid for it. Oh well.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> You don't have to use fuse to test shorts. Use a multimeter to measure continuity between tube pins, if you hear beeps there is a short (the continuity between 2 filament pins is normal, it's not a short).



Definitely a valid process for testing for shorts, although just to be nitpicky there should be some minor resistance between the filament (heater) pins.  A beep (or continuity) would indicate a short, but a null reading would mean the filament windings are open and no current would pass.  

But then there's the flip side.  With my bad run of luck with tubes of late, I received a black round plate Philco-labeled 6J5 today. Advertised as "TESTED STRONG!!"   Stuck it in the Hickok, and no shorts or interelement leakage (finally), but a GM reading of 225.  400 (unmultiplied) is the minimum good value on the Hickok.  So the tube is almost half of minimum.  Threw it in the Weston just to see what it showed, and with a minimum good of 840 on it I got 425.  Layman's terms:  the friggin' "tested strong" tube is totally worn out.  Without a tester, I would have stuck that in the amp and very likely concluded that Philco-labeled 6J5's suck. But most worn out tubes suck, and without knowing what the GM or emission output is on a tube it's not possible to determine if the tube type/brand itself sucks or it's a (normally) great tube that's just worn out.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Definitely a valid process for testing for shorts, although just to be nitpicky there should be some minor resistance between the filament (heater) pins.  A beep (or continuity) would indicate a short, but a null reading would mean the filament windings are open and no current would pass.
> 
> But then there's the flip side.  With my bad run of luck with tubes of late, I received a black round plate Philco-labeled 6J5 today. Advertised as "TESTED STRONG!!"   Stuck it in the Hickok, and no shorts or interelement leakage (finally), but a GM reading of 225.  400 (unmultiplied) is the minimum good value on the Hickok.  So the tube is almost half of minimum.  Threw it in the Weston just to see what it showed, and with a minimum good of 840 on it I got 425.  Layman's terms:  the friggin' "tested strong" tube is totally worn out.  Without a tester, I would have stuck that in the amp and very likely concluded that Philco-labeled 6J5's suck. But most worn out tubes suck, and without knowing what the GM or emission output is on a tube it's not possible to determine if the tube type/brand itself sucks or it's a (normally) great tube that's just worn out.


Excellent point. I can see how knowing for sure what you have can add some insightful comparisons.


----------



## cddc

That's true. You can detect shorts by a multimeter, but you can't tell if sellers are lying on tube qualities. Having a tester will definitely help, but if you only want to buy some tubes for your amp, a tester would be too costly. Do a background check on sellers, find some reliable sources either thru friends or by yourself may work better in the situation.


----------



## Wes S

cddc said:


> That's true. You can detect shorts by a multimeter, but you can't tell if sellers are lying on tube qualities. Having a tester will definitely help, but if you only want to buy some tubes for your amp, a tester would be too costly. Do a background check on sellers, find some reliable sources either thru friends or by yourself may work better in the situation.


This is what I have been doing, with great success.  Good advice there.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

@Deyan's adapter is dead quiet in my BHC and the RCA tube recommended by @Paladin79 is sounding great so far.  The tubes came as a matched pair but I can't make myself try the other tube because I don't want to turn off the music.  

Thanks for the recommendation on the RCA, it's definitely the type of warmer sound that I was looking for when pairing with my HD800.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I designed an amp that is intended to bring out the sound of the 6sn7 and I left a lot of space so I can use various 6sn7 equivalents that can be hidden under a metal box. My first attempts were disguising the tubes inside PVC pipe but that only allowed for the more common tube shapes to be used. The Psvanes and single triode tubes were out of the question.
> 
> Here are eight I concealed for a tube shootout at Schiit, I even made my own octal extenders so no tube pins or bases were showing. Four of these are on the way to @JKDJedi so he can assess the sound without knowing brand, he should have them Monday. I also made them identical cables and sent along switch boxes so they could easily switch between four tubes.


What speakers were you playing with the Vidars?
I recently bought some Magnepan .7 speakers and am considering the Vidar.  Would love to know you impression of them.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> What speakers were you playing with the Vidars?
> I recently bought some Magnepan .7 speakers and am considering the Vidar.  Would love to know you impression of them.


This was at the Schiit sound room, I am not sure what all they used. I just sent the tubes to Jason.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> This was at the Schiit sound room, I am not sure what all they used. I just sent the tubes to Jason.


Ah.  Sorry, I probably overlooked that on the post.


----------



## Deyan

PsilocybinCube said:


> This tester is a bit of an investment, but not too bad considering how much money we all spend on hi-fi gear...
> https://www.adorama.com/orvt1000.ht...yk_UWTbcxqxoC6TkQAvD_BwE&utm_source=adl-gbase
> 
> Thoughts?  Anybody tried this specific tester?



I can build testers.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Ah.  Sorry, I probably overlooked that on the post.


The testing was written up by an Audiophile magazine or website, if I can find that again I can post it. Unfortunately four Sagas were used and the tubes were only buffers so the results were not as I hoped. It caused me to design my own amps for such testing. The write up may describe the speakers.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Deyan said:


> I can build testers.


He builds adapters, he builds testers, what can't he do?

How much would a tester cost and would we specify the tube types we wanted tested?  In other words could we say 'I want a tester for 6080, 6as7g, 6sn7, and 12au7?'


----------



## Deyan

PsilocybinCube said:


> He builds adapters, he builds testers, what can't he do?
> 
> How much would a tester cost and would we specify the tube types we wanted tested?  In other words could we say 'I want a tester for 6080, 6as7g, 6sn7, and 12au7?'



Well I'll go by the tubes you mentioned ( although it will accommodate a lot more) 
Such a thing would not exceed 180$ for a plate current tester ( with proper control grid power supply)
And about 210$ for the above and shorts and vacuum test.
Now those are example prices that depend on how many transformers I order. If someone is interested enough I can get a price quote for the two types of transformers, the rest are of the shelf parts so I can have a pretty accurate price.


----------



## Wes S

Deyan said:


> Well I'll go by the tubes you mentioned ( although it will accommodate a lot more)
> Such a thing would not exceed 180$ for a plate current tester ( with proper control grid power supply)
> And about 210$ for the above and shorts and vacuum test.
> Now those are example prices that depend on how many transformers I order. If someone is interested enough I can get a price quote for the two types of transformers, the rest are of the shelf parts so I can have a pretty accurate price.


Just jumping in here, and dang you have me interested!  I know how high quality your work is, so I can only imagine the tester would be legit.  I will be in touch soon.


----------



## Deyan

@Wes S
I'll try and come up with a design beforehand.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 26, 2020)

Deyan said:


> @Wes S
> I'll try and come up with a design beforehand.


Cool!  One more tube to add to that list previously mentioned that I would love to be able to test, is the 6922/E88CC/6DJ8/ECC88.  Thanks man.


----------



## Deyan

Tube count is not the major concern.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Deyan said:


> Well I'll go by the tubes you mentioned ( although it will accommodate a lot more)
> Such a thing would not exceed 180$ for a plate current tester ( with proper control grid power supply)
> And about 210$ for the above and shorts and vacuum test.
> Now those are example prices that depend on how many transformers I order. If someone is interested enough I can get a price quote for the two types of transformers, the rest are of the shelf parts so I can have a pretty accurate price.


I would be interested at that price point for sure.  Maybe we can order a couple for anyone interested and do the DHL shipping again???  I can coordinate unless @bcowen wants to coordinate again


----------



## Deyan

Ok. It turns out that it might happen for real. I'll email the girls that make the transformers ( guess everybody is making custom things around here 🤣🤣🤣) on Monday. And we will know the exact price of the thing.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 26, 2020)

I bought a B&K 700 Mutual Conductance tester from @bcowen and it has been completely refurbished as well as calibrated to show all tubes he sells as NOS and any other tubes as dead.  It may be time for a new one.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 26, 2020)

This just arrived, book and cd.
 Not bad for $34.95 from Amazon, Tube Lore original version was fetching high prices at one time.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 26, 2020)

Ooooh.   Gotta run to the mailbox and see if mine made it!!

Edit:  Nope -- looks like a July 1 date.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Ooooh.   Gotta run to the mailbox and see if mine made it!!
> 
> Edit:  Nope -- looks like a July 1 date.


It has a very good reference to date codes on the CD. I best get a copy of the GE dot system over to @bcowen as soon as possible, he thrives on such things, especially if it is GE!!!


----------



## tafens

Wes S said:


> Cool!  One more tube to add to that list previously mentioned that I would love to be able to test, is the 6922/E88CC/6DJ8/ECC88.  Thanks man.



I would definitely be interested in a tester for 6SN7 and 6DJ8 family tubes. I don’t live in the same corner of the world as most of the others though so would be separate shipping for me.

@Deyan


----------



## Deyan

tafens said:


> I would definitely be interested in a tester for 6SN7 and 6DJ8 family tubes. I don’t live in the same corner of the world as most of the others though so would be separate shipping for me.
> 
> @Deyan



Sweden is not a problem ( it never was through the whole pandemic thing). And shipping is cheaper. 
On a side note only thanks to everyone on the forum I was able to get a metal working lathe and make 80% of the things i need for the adapters in house. And now this, to think I have been fiddling with the idea of making tube testers for years.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It has a very good reference to date codes on the CD. I best get a copy of the GE dot system over to @bcowen as soon as possible, he thrives on such things, especially if it is GE!!!



There's a nice Motorola 6080 on Ebay for a good price...complete with dots.  I prefer Marigo dots, so I'll leave this one alone.    

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373095171203?ul_noapp=true


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I bought a B&K 700 Mutual Conductance tester from @bcowen and it has been completely refurbished as well as calibrated to show all tubes he sells as NOS and any other tubes as dead.  It may be time for a new one.



You're not giving much credit for the supreme engineering prowess involved with that.  See if I ever sell you a defective tester again.  Ingrate.


----------



## bcowen

Deyan said:


> Sweden is not a problem ( it never was through the whole pandemic thing). And shipping is cheaper.
> On a side note only thanks to everyone on the forum I was able to get a metal working lathe and make 80% of the things i need for the adapters in house. And now this, to think I have been fiddling with the idea of making tube testers for years.



Although I have a long term love affair with Hickoks (the testers, @Ripper2860 , not the wild west guy), I'd be most interested in what you come up with. So if you end up sending out a PM on this, please include me. Thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There's a nice Motorola 6080 on Ebay for a good price...complete with dots.  I prefer Marigo dots, so I'll leave this one alone.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/373095171203?ul_noapp=true


Now, now GE power tubes are oftentimes rated higher than some 6080’s, not a lot but some.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now, now GE power tubes are oftentimes rated higher than some 6080’s, not a lot but some.



OK, it's yours then.


----------



## Deyan (Jun 27, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Although I have a long term love affair with Hickoks (the testers, @Ripper2860 , not the wild west guy), I'd be most interested in what you come up with. So if you end up sending out a PM on this, please include me. Thanks!



I'll keep everyone updated. But I have to warn everyone that even if I order a bunch of transformers, the kiln that they bake them in gets fired on a schedule, I believe it's 3 times a month. So there is no way I'll be able to make the testers as quickly as the adapters.

P. S. That and there is the esthetic design of the thing. 
It will look like a measurement instrument.


----------



## bcowen

Deyan said:


> I'll keep everyone updated. But I have to warn everyone that even if I order a bunch of transformers, the kiln that they bake them in gets fired on a schedule, I believe it's 3 times a month. So there is no way I'll be able to make the testers as quickly as the adapters.
> 
> P. S. That and there is the esthetic design of the thing.
> It will look like a measurement instrument.



What?!?  No bright chrome chassis with a 1" thick faceplate milled out of solid unobtanium?  I'm out.  

Kidding of course.  Function over form is clearly appropriate in this case.


----------



## bcowen

@Old Deaf Donkey : Dude!  Where 'ya been?  Good to see you pop back in.  Anything new and exciting?


----------



## Wes S

Deyan said:


> I'll keep everyone updated. But I have to warn everyone that even if I order a bunch of transformers, the kiln that they bake them in gets fired on a schedule, I believe it's 3 times a month. So there is no way I'll be able to make the testers as quickly as the adapters.
> 
> P. S. That and there is the esthetic design of the thing.
> It will look like a measurement instrument.


Sounds good!  Take your time, I know it will be worth the wait.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OK, it's yours then.


I have a couple that came with other amps and I am not going to pay double what I can get an RCA 6080WA for.


----------



## Paladin79

Deyan said:


> I'll keep everyone updated. But I have to warn everyone that even if I order a bunch of transformers, the kiln that they bake them in gets fired on a schedule, I believe it's 3 times a month. So there is no way I'll be able to make the testers as quickly as the adapters.
> 
> P. S. That and there is the esthetic design of the thing.
> It will look like a measurement instrument.


I would like to be included as well in any emails, I want to see what kind of meter movements you use. Just getting the initial layout of the top plate will take some time as well as selecting the potentiometers and initial calibration. Luckily a lot of tubes are outdated or were used for functions outside of audio, but you will have to have a manual and tube chart IMHO.
Your price is very reasonable and I suspect to build one in the states would be double to triple the price you are considering.


----------



## Ripper2860

Deyan said:


> I'll keep everyone updated. But I have to warn everyone that even if I order a bunch of transformers, the kiln that they bake them in gets fired on a schedule, I believe it's 3 times a month. So there is no way I'll be able to make the testers as quickly as the adapters.
> 
> P. S. That and there is the esthetic design of the thing.
> It will look like a measurement instrument.



Keep me looped in as well, please.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 27, 2020)

Posted this in the other 6SN7 thread, but figured it belongs here too.  Got to love the look of @Deyan 's adapters! I really love how the color scheme even matches my amp.   It is also nice knowing it is a high quality point to point wired adapter, that makes tube rolling a breeze. Bravo!


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> @Old Deaf Donkey : Dude!  Where 'ya been?  Good to see you pop back in.  Anything new and exciting?


Oy. Thanks for asking - you noticed. Well, nothing extraordinary, been NOWHERE -  lockdown: work, depression, hence home improvements. And then, I have found the sound I like. Rolling the tubes I have. and I have plenty. Currently RCA VT-231 smoked glass in Vali 2 and 2 KenRad JAN-CKR-6J5 in aune T1 DAC, AKG K702. And you?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Oy. Thanks for asking - you noticed. Well, nothing extraordinarym been NOWHERE -  lockdown: work,depression, hence home improvements. And then, I have found the sound I like. Rolling the tubes I have. and I have plenty. Currently RCA VT-231 smoked glass in Vali 2 and 2 KenRad JAN-CKR-6J5 in aune T1 DAC, AKG K702. And you?



Well, been nowhere _except_ work and my boss is still a prick, but at this point I'm just happy to still have a job.   Some really nice guy gifted me a really awesome amp, so I've now spent 3x of what it probably _would_ have cost on tubes for it.  LOL!  Some things never change, but I'm having fun which is all that matters.  And I'm really enjoying some round plate Tung Sol 6J5's.  I haven't even rolled any 6SN7's in a while...too afraid I'll screw something up. And I made the mistake of mentioning the Tung Sols to @Ripper2860 which means if I want any more I'm quite likely screwed.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 28, 2020)

Glad you're back with us ODD.  



bcowen said:


> And I made the mistake of mentioning the Tung Sols to @Ripper2860 which means if I want any more I'm quite likely screwed.



The fact that you mentioned them to me would seem to indicate that you have pretty much already bought all in existence.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I'm really enjoying some round plate Tung Sol 6J5's


I do not think I have any. They'd be in Coke shaped bottles?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I do not think I have any. They'd be in Coke shaped bottles?



I haven't tried any of the ST bottle ones.  These are the ones I'm liking right now:


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The fact that you mentioned them to me would seem to indicate that you have pretty much already bought all in existence.



No, that just means I've bought all the ones currently being sold by someone.  But now that you're clued in I guess I'll have to switch to 7A4's 'cause I already have an adapter and you don't.  LOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I do not think I have any. They'd be in Coke shaped bottles?


Hey ODD, glad to see you back!
Cowen has a wealth of 6SN7’s yet he buys more equivalents lol. Now power tubes are another matter. I am working from home and finally building an amp for myself now that Bill and Ripper have one and several other friends. Mine will be a bit unusual.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> I haven't tried any of the ST bottle ones.  These are the ones I'm liking right now:


Thanks. I shall look up what I have tomorrow and share.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Hey ODD, glad to see you back!
> Cowen has a wealth of 6SN7’s yet he buys more equivalents lol. Now power tubes are another matter. I am working from home and finally building an amp for myself now that Bill and Ripper have one and several other friends. Mine will be a bit unusual.


Thanks, Tom. Wow, Rotary rocket launchers!


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thanks, Tom. Wow, Rotary rocket launchers!


Lol ladder pots but they will match pretty well.


----------



## quimbo

I need some help understanding numbers.  I reached out to a tube seller for a few specific items.  Here is what he has

Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Mouse Ear tube, Tests at 90/95. Min is 50.
Price is $45  (number on the tube is 322202)

National Union CNU 6SN7GT WWII mil spec. Tests at 105/105. Min is 50.
Price is $50 

National Union 6SN7GT T-Plate tube. Tests at 100/100. Min is 50.
Price is $5

What do these numbers mean?  90/95?  105/105?

Thanks


----------



## bcowen

quimbo said:


> I need some help understanding numbers.  I reached out to a tube seller for a few specific items.  Here is what he has
> 
> Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Mouse Ear tube, Tests at 90/95. Min is 50.
> Price is $45  (number on the tube is 322202)
> ...



Without knowing what tester he is using, those are either emission or transconductance (GM) readings.  Simply put, the output level of the tube(s).  And without knowing the state of calibration of his tester those numbers are, quite honestly, meaningless.  If his tester is calibrated to factory specs, those are good readings.  If not, they're just numbers.

$5 for an NU T-Plate?  Or is that a typo?


----------



## quimbo (Jun 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Without knowing what tester he is using, those are either emission or transconductance (GM) readings.  Simply put, the output level of the tube(s).  And without knowing the state of calibration of his tester those numbers are, quite honestly, meaningless.  If his tester is calibrated to factory specs, those are good readings.  If not, they're just numbers.
> 
> $5 for an NU T-Plate?  Or is that a typo?



Not a typo on my part


----------



## bcowen

quimbo said:


> Not a typo on my part



I've never heard that particular version, but probably any National Union that tests well for $5 is most certainly worth a shot, IMO.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Lol ladder pots but they will match pretty well.



And here I thought they were gas turbines to, you know, make it sound really fast.  Probably GE-made turbines though...


----------



## quimbo

bcowen said:


> And here I thought they were gas turbines to, you know, make it sound really fast.  Probably GE-made turbines though...


Thank you.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jun 29, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thanks. I shall look up what I have tomorrow and share.



 

Now, @bcowen  that was what I remembered having. Looks rather similar to your Tung-Sols, and sound gorgeous, too


----------



## Deyan

Well waiting for an answer for the transformer regarding the tube tester project.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Deyan said:


> Well waiting for an answer for the transformer regarding the tube tester project.


I have a batch of inexpensive 6sn7 tubes coming.  Can't wait for the tester so I can make sure they don't fry my amp!!!


----------



## tafens

PsilocybinCube said:


> I have a batch of inexpensive 6sn7 tubes coming.  Can't wait for the tester so I can make sure they don't fry my amp!!!



+1, and also to see if the dull sound from some tubes I bought off of eBay is because the tube just is that way or if it’s “NOS” but still worn out...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

tafens said:


> +1, and also to see if the dull sound from some tubes I bought off of eBay is because the tube just is that way or if it’s “NOS” but still worn out...


The tube does not have to be "worn out" to give "dull sound". Some sound dull to your ears in your equipment even if they are in mint condition, eBay not to be blamed - or they are screeching like mad. Ask @bcowen  about GE tubes... Some octals need to be resoldered - ask @Paladin79


----------



## PsilocybinCube

tafens said:


> +1, and also to see if the dull sound from some tubes I bought off of eBay is because the tube just is that way or if it’s “NOS” but still worn out...


I purchased them from a seller on NC.  Curious if @bcowen has any experience with them...
https://www.ebay.com/str/ibismachine


----------



## Astral Abyss

Here's some you don't see too often...  Since we're sharing.  🙂


----------



## tafens

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> The tube does not have to be "worn out" to give "dull sound". Some sound dull to your ears in your equipment even if they are in mint condition, eBay not to be blamed - or they are screeching like mad. Ask @bcowen  about GE tubes... Some octals need to be resoldered - ask @Paladin79



@bcowen has made his opinion on GE’s quite clear..  and I do have a MELZ 1578 that needs resoldering.
Of course how a tube sounds in a system depends on many things, the ears listening not least, but it would be interesting to be able to know if the tube in there is a good representative of its type or not (without having to take the word of an eBay seller I know nothing about)


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Astral Abyss said:


> Here's some you don't see too often...  Since we're sharing.  🙂


Sharing? Sharing? Should I send you my postal address?


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> I haven't tried any of the ST bottle ones.  These are the ones I'm liking right now:


See if you can find a second laddered plate TS 6J5. I find them very similar to the TS 6SN7 BGRP.

6J5 thread here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6j5-thread-l63-6c5-12j5-6p5-etc.934653/


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> See if you can find a second laddered plate TS 6J5. I find them very similar to the TS 6SN7 BGRP.
> 
> 6J5 thread here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6j5-thread-l63-6c5-12j5-6p5-etc.934653/



Sweet!  Thanks for the link.  I haven't tried any of the TS ladder plates.  Yet.


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> @bcowen has made his opinion on GE’s quite clear..  and I do have a MELZ 1578 that needs resoldering.
> Of course how a tube sounds in a system depends on many things, the ears listening not least, but it would be interesting to be able to know if the tube in there is a good representative of its type or not (without having to take the word of an eBay seller I know nothing about)



You can always send them to me for testing.  Most will probably test bad, but I'm happy to throw them away for you here rather than waste your money on return shipping.  Just ask @Ripper2860 .


----------



## bcowen

Astral Abyss said:


> Here's some you don't see too often...  Since we're sharing.  🙂



You are correct -- don't see many (or _any_) of those floating around any more.  Awesome looking tubes!


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I purchased them from a seller on NC.  Curious if @bcowen has any experience with them...
> https://www.ebay.com/str/ibismachine



Have never bought anything from that seller.


----------



## Astral Abyss

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Sharing? Sharing? Should I send you my postal address?


Eyes only.  👀  



bcowen said:


> You are correct -- don't see many (or _any_) of those floating around any more.  Awesome looking tubes!


Thanks for that.  I'm not the best photographer but they're in pristine condition.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

I thought I bought a lot of headphone gear, then I look at @Astral Abyss

*HEADPHONES:* ATH-M50x, ATH-W5000, HD650, T1.2, LCD-2.2F, LCD-XC, Ori, Auteur, Aeolus, GH1, GH2, LA&OC Audio Society 25th Anniv., Ragnarr, AFC, HE-6, HE-560, Dharma D1000, Odin, Elex, 99 Noir
*DACs:* D-77, Yggdrasil, Amethyst
_*DAPs: *_Shanling M0, M6
_*AMPS:*_ Ragnarok, Leeloo, Pendant, Ember II, Solstice, NFB-1AMP, Milo, WA2, WA6-SE, Crack+Speedball


----------



## Astral Abyss

PsilocybinCube said:


> I thought I bought a lot of headphone gear, then I look at @Astral Abyss
> 
> *HEADPHONES:* ATH-M50x, ATH-W5000, HD650, T1.2, LCD-2.2F, LCD-XC, Ori, Auteur, Aeolus, GH1, GH2, LA&OC Audio Society 25th Anniv., Ragnarr, AFC, HE-6, HE-560, Dharma D1000, Odin, Elex, 99 Noir
> *DACs:* D-77, Yggdrasil, Amethyst
> ...



On the plus side, I've stabilized.


----------



## Wes S

PsilocybinCube said:


> I thought I bought a lot of headphone gear, then I look at @Astral Abyss
> 
> *HEADPHONES:* ATH-M50x, ATH-W5000, HD650, T1.2, LCD-2.2F, LCD-XC, Ori, Auteur, Aeolus, GH1, GH2, LA&OC Audio Society 25th Anniv., Ragnarr, AFC, HE-6, HE-560, Dharma D1000, Odin, Elex, 99 Noir
> *DACs:* D-77, Yggdrasil, Amethyst
> ...


That is some serious gear there!  TOTL no doubt.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 2, 2020)

Finally scored a W!  I am pumped to hear what it is all about!  Time to see if my Tung Sol BGRP, can get dethroned.

Check out this beauty, on its way to me.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> Finally scored a W!  I am pumped to hear what it is all about!  Time to see if my Tung Sol BGRP, can get dethroned.
> 
> Check out this beauty, on its way to me.



Sweet!  And a Navy military spec to boot. Interested to hear your thoughts on it when you get it.  I have a couple of the micanol based versions, but the metal based ones are supposed to be another step up from those.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  And a Navy military spec to boot. Interested to hear your thoughts on it when you get it.  I have a couple of the micanol based versions, but the metal based ones are supposed to be another step up from those.


It sure is a nice looking tube isn't it!   I will keep you posted once I get some time with it, and I am extremely excited to hear it.  I have been reading up on this tube for years, and finally just said the heck with it and bought one.  Life is short, enjoy it why you can.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> Life is short, enjoy it why you can.



LOL!  This should be in the first line of the tube rollers constitution:  "We the tube rollers, in order to form a more perfect listening experience..."

Well, that would be the USA version anyway.


----------



## cddc

Wes S said:


> Finally scored a W!  I am pumped to hear what it is all about!  Time to see if my Tung Sol BGRP, can get dethroned.
> 
> Check out this beauty, on its way to me.




The tube looks gorgeous!

Sylvania W metal bass is notorious for having cracked base, just like tung sol mouse ears. How the hell Sylvania managed to create cracks in metal....I could never figure out...


But the one you bought is in pristine condition...one of the few W metal bases with such good conditions that I've seen.


----------



## cddc (Jul 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  This should be in the first line of the tube rollers constitution:  "We the tube rollers, in order to form a more perfect listening experience..."
> 
> Well, that would be the USA version anyway.



"Life is short, enjoy it while you can." 


I want to add another slogan to tube rollers threads that I posted on BHC forum long time ago, "So Many Tubes, So Little Time."


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> "Life is short, enjoy it while you can."
> 
> 
> I want to add another slogan to tube rollers threads that I posted on BHC forum long time ago, "Too Many Tubes, Too Little Time."



LOL!  But to be my usual nitpicky self, "too many tubes" is an urban legend.   I'm guessing that with an estimated ~2500 hours of life from a tube (which is probably conservative depending on tube type) I'm pretty well stocked up until 4036, maybe 4037.  But I'm just thinking forward about my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandchildren (with apologies for my likely flawed generational math).


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Sylvania W metal bass is notorious for having cracked base, just like tung sol mouse ears. How the hell Sylvania managed to create cracks in metal....I could never figure out...



Most of the time it's caused by an improper relationship in the ductility (malleability, or "stretch") in the metal and the forming process employed.  I've been in the metal fabrication business most of my adult life (ie: since 2019 ), and metal with low ductility requires a much slower or multiple step forming process to allow the stresses created by the forming to stabilize. Putting a tight radius bend (like on a tube base) too quickly with a low ductility metal will cause stress cracks.  Of course materials science and the precision of alloy content in most metals has come a long, long way since these tubes were made in the '50's, and while the processes developed back then may have been fine for a metal with a perfect alloy mix, any variance in that alloy content could upset the whole apple cart (and those variances were probably more the norm than the exception back in those days).


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  And a Navy military spec to boot. Interested to hear your thoughts on it when you get it.  I have a couple of the micanol based versions, but the metal based ones are supposed to be another step up from those.


I also have one with a black base (Tronal branded) and short bottle, but never listened to it. Looked at the price - holy crap. Found it in the stash and stuck it in Vali 2. Oh well. I see why they go for $300... A step UP from this?


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I also have one with a black base (Tronal branded) and short bottle, but never listened to it. Looked at the price - holy crap. Found it in the stash and stuck it in Vali 2. Oh well. I see why they go for $300... A step UP from this?



Well, that's why I said "supposed."    

I've never had or heard a metal base version myself.  Who knows...perhaps there's no sonic difference at all, and the metal-base prices are driven mostly by rarity.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Well, that's why I said "supposed."
> 
> I've never had or heard a metal base version myself.  Who knows...perhaps there's no sonic difference at all, and the metal-base prices are driven mostly by rarity.


rfparts sell them for $157 apiece. I would be tempted if I were you


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> rfparts sell them for $157 apiece. I would be tempted if I were you



Thanks.  NOT!  Of course I'm tempted, but I'm already a month behind in unlistened-to tubes.


----------



## whirlwind

Wes S said:


> Finally scored a W!  I am pumped to hear what it is all about!  Time to see if my Tung Sol BGRP, can get dethroned.
> 
> Check out this beauty, on its way to me.



Congrats on this find....the top rung of the Sylvania ladder of 6SN7


----------



## Wes S

whirlwind said:


> Congrats on this find....the top rung of the Sylvania ladder of 6SN7


Thanks!  The only other Sylvania 6SN7 I own, are some "52' Bad Boys" and I love them, so I am anxious to hear the most famous Sylvania of them all.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Wes S said:


> Thanks!  The only other Sylvania 6SN7 I own, are some "52' Bad Boys" and I love them, so I am anxious to hear the most famous Sylvania of them all.


I suspect your 52 will be collecting dust


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Wes S said:


> Thanks!  The only other Sylvania 6SN7 I own, are some "52' Bad Boys" and I love them, so I am anxious to hear the most famous Sylvania of them all.


Please tell us when you try them, will wait jealously


----------



## Wes S

Look what just got delivered!   I have to say this tube looks even prettier in person, and just might be one of the coolest looking tubes I own. This is gonna be a fun night!


----------



## attmci

whirlwind said:


> Congrats on this find....the top rung of the Sylvania ladder of 6SN7


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6SN7w-...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Wow, that's very expensive for a tube at ~70% of it's lifespan. 

Sorry, I just curious about the current price of the tube.


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6SN7w-Sylvania-Tube-Metal-Base-Tested-Strong-Results-2040-2120-/283940561992?hash=item421c2d2448:g:fvsAAOSwYkVfBJv~&nma=true&si=nB%2FzJR9YuZ9Zz016ujo6gUxrSSY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> Wow, that's very expensive for a tube at ~70% of it's lifespan.
> 
> Sorry, I just curious about the current price of the tube.




The one in your quote is way overpriced for sure...fng2u is a sucker, some stupid seller only slightly better than bangybang or manifee_audio

I think Wes bought the other one, slightly below NOS.


----------



## flea22

Hello guys

Great thread, Has anyone here had any experience with 6sn7gt made in Holland? Been eyeing some off that are branded Pope.
Would love to know some sound signatures of this tube. Cant find much information on the web about them.

Cheers


----------



## Wes S (Jul 10, 2020)

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6SN7w-Sylvania-Tube-Metal-Base-Tested-Strong-Results-2040-2120-/283940561992?hash=item421c2d2448:g:fvsAAOSwYkVfBJv~&nma=true&si=nB%2FzJR9YuZ9Zz016ujo6gUxrSSY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> Wow, that's very expensive for a tube at ~70% of it's lifespan.
> 
> Sorry, I just curious about the current price of the tube.


Not the one I bought, and yep tubes are expensive.  They aren't making 1940's W tubes anymore, so I imagine they are gonna keep going up.  I paid a premium and for me it is worth it.  I can't really put a price on quality sound and the enjoyment I get from good tubes.  If I have the money at the time, and I see a tube I have been wanting and it is a reputable seller selling it, well then I buy it and don't look back.  Seems to be a reoccurring them with me lately, but life is short folks so enjoy good tubes and sound while you can.  Of course you don't have to buy the most expensive tubes to get this enjoyment, but from what I have found there is a reason why some tubes cost more than others.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 10, 2020)

This tube combo is legit! 

Bendix 6080WB & Sylvania 6SN7W





Happy rolling and listening!


----------



## Wes S

My current 6SN7 tube rankings below.   

1.  Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Base
2.
3.
4.
. . .  All my other 6SN7's.


----------



## gibosi

flea22 said:


> Hello guys
> 
> Great thread, Has anyone here had any experience with 6sn7gt made in Holland? Been eyeing some off that are branded Pope.
> Would love to know some sound signatures of this tube. Cant find much information on the web about them.
> ...



These 6SN7GT were manufactured in Eindhoven, Holland. Typically, the Philips production code is printed on the bottom of the base. The factory code for Eindhoven is "4". And the sound is similar to other common double triodes manufactured in Holland. For example the ECC40, which was manufactured in Eindhoven and Sittard. And later, the ECC88, E88CC, 6922, E188CC, 7308 and E80CC manufactured in Heerlen. I would characterize the Holland "sound" as being a bit brighter than Mullard, but not as bright as Valvo or Telefunken. To my ears, the main characteristic of the Holland "sound" is a lush, warm midrange, which tends to emphasize vocals.

I believe, but I am not sure, that this tube was also manufactured by Philips in Bruxelles, factory code = L. So if you want the Holland-made 6SN7GT, check for factory code = 4.


----------



## flea22

gibosi said:


> These 6SN7GT were manufactured in Eindhoven, Holland. Typically, the Philips production code is printed on the bottom of the base. The factory code for Eindhoven is "4". And the sound is similar to other common double triodes manufactured in Holland. For example the ECC40, which was manufactured in Eindhoven and Sittard. And later, the ECC88, E88CC, 6922, E188CC, 7308 and E80CC manufactured in Heerlen. I would characterize the Holland "sound" as being a bit brighter than Mullard, but not as bright as Valvo or Telefunken. To my ears, the main characteristic of the Holland "sound" is a lush, warm midrange, which tends to emphasize vocals.
> 
> I believe, but I am not sure, that this tube was also manufactured by Philips in Bruxelles, factory code = L. So if you want the Holland-made 6SN7GT, check for factory code = 4.


Thanks for the information, seems like they are pretty rare tubes as well. Wonder if the price of these tubes are more related to there rarity, then sounding amazing, or a mixture of both. Any way the tubes I was eyeing off sold last night, so the temptation of buying them has gone. 

Does anyone have any recommendations on a nos 6sn7 that can deliver great transparency and have good bass, without sounding warm. I am using some 1940's sylvania vt-231 at the moment. They sound great in my system, but the bass is a little bit off.


----------



## Ranger Ron

flea22 said:


> Thanks for the information, seems like they are pretty rare tubes as well. Wonder if the price of these tubes are more related to there rarity, then sounding amazing, or a mixture of both. Any way the tubes I was eyeing off sold last night, so the temptation of buying them has gone.
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations on a nos 6sn7 that can deliver great transparency and have good bass, without sounding warm. I am using some 1940's sylvania vt-231 at the moment. They sound great in my system, but the bass is a little bit off.


TungSol clear glass 6sn7gt's, with or without the mouse ears might get you there.


----------



## gibosi

flea22 said:


> Thanks for the information, seems like they are pretty rare tubes as well. Wonder if the price of these tubes are more related to there rarity, then sounding amazing, or a mixture of both. Any way the tubes I was eyeing off sold last night, so the temptation of buying them has gone.
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations on a nos 6sn7 that can deliver great transparency and have good bass, without sounding warm. I am using some 1940's sylvania vt-231 at the moment. They sound great in my system, but the bass is a little bit off.



If you haven't yet, check out the 6SN7 reference thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## attmci

Wes S said:


> Not the one I bought, and yep tubes are expensive.  They aren't making 1940's W tubes anymore, so I imagine they are gonna keep going up.  I paid a premium and for me it is worth it.  I can't really put a price on quality sound and the enjoyment I get from good tubes.  If I have the money at the time, and I see a tube I have been wanting and it is a reputable seller selling it, well then I buy it and don't look back.  Seems to be a reoccurring them with me lately, but life is short folks so enjoy good tubes and sound while you can.  Of course you don't have to buy the most expensive tubes to get this enjoyment, but from what I have found there is a reason why some tubes cost more than others.


Sure. Same here when I pulled the triggers on those expensive tubes i.e. B65,ECC33, ECC35, WE422 .........

Enjoy!


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Sure. Same here when I pulled the triggers on those expensive tubes i.e. B65,ECC33, ECC35, WE422 .........
> 
> Enjoy!




Wow...you bought a B65, that tube is insanely expensive.


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> Wow...you bought a B65, that tube is insanely expensive.


Like Wes, I was very curious about the tube a couple of years ago. It is one of the best 6SN7 tubes not just due to its rarity. 

But for over $600 a piece? No.


----------



## cddc

$600 a pop is definitely insane. I'd rather spend the $$$ on upgrading amps or dacs or headphones.


----------



## attmci (Jul 10, 2020)

cddc said:


> $600 a pop is definitely insane. I'd rather spend the $$$ on upgrading amps or dacs or headphones.


It cost about $400 NIB many years ago. Just FYI. 

Upgrade the _*headphone*_ first, than the amps, and DAC. The change will make the biggest difference.


----------



## Wes S

Hi my name is Wes, and I am a tube addict, and a 6SN7 one at that.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Wes S said:


> Hi my name is Wes, and I am a tube addict, and a 6SN7 one at that.





Wes S said:


> Hi my name is Wes, and I am a tube addict, and a 6SN7 one at that.





cddc said:


> $600 a pop is definitely insane. I'd rather spend the $$$ on upgrading amps or dacs or headphones.


indeed that is insane.But! Have you noticed aseller on eBay asking $1,800 apiece for the swedish standard 5692's!? Now that is beyond insane


----------



## cddc

LOL....I remember seeing them. It's from the stupid Italian guy, right? He is always asking ridiculous prices...


----------



## LoryWiv (Jul 11, 2020)

flea22 said:


> Thanks for the information, seems like they are pretty rare tubes as well. Wonder if the price of these tubes are more related to there rarity, then sounding amazing, or a mixture of both. Any way the tubes I was eyeing off sold last night, so the temptation of buying them has gone.
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations on a nos 6sn7 that can deliver great transparency and have good bass, without sounding warm. I am using some 1940's sylvania vt-231 at the moment. They sound great in my system, but the bass is a little bit off.


Ken Rad VT-231 are bass champions, perhaps a bit warm but retain good detail retrieval, not bloomy nor bleed into mids.


----------



## flea22

LoryWiv said:


> Ken Rad VT-231 are bass champions, perhaps a bit warm but retain good detail retrieval, not bloomy nor bleed into mids.


Thanks, what I like about these early vt 231 tubes are they are not crazy expensive yet. I will try and find some ken rads local and give them a go. Is black or clear glass better? Hope blacks are better because they would look pretty cool on my euforia!!


----------



## Ranger Ron

cddc said:


> LOL....I remember seeing them. It's from the stupid Italian guy, right? He is always asking ridiculous prices...
> [/QUOTE not sure, I think he's selling from Oregon.


----------



## Ranger Ron

flea22 said:


> Thanks, what I like about these early vt 231 tubes are they are not crazy expensive yet. I will try and find some ken rads local and give them a go. Is black or clear glass better? Hope blacks are better because they would look pretty cool on my euforia!!


In my experience they sound identical. But of course the black does have the look and the higher price tag going for it


----------



## Ripper2860

Ditto the above.  Having both clear and black glass KR VT-231s, I am unable to hear any noticeable differences between them.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Ditto the above.  Having both clear and black glass KR VT-231s, I am unable to hear any noticeable differences between them.


I have had both and unfortunately group blind listening chose the black glass pretty consistently but you have to remember there are a couple types of black glass, one type does sound closer to the clear but they are not as sought after IMHO.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

flea22 said:


> Thanks, what I like about these early vt 231 tubes are they are not crazy expensive yet. I will try and find some ken rads local and give them a go. Is black or clear glass better? Hope blacks are better because they would look pretty cool on my euforia!!


I bought some expensive grey glass RCAs that I liked, then picked up a Ken Rad clear glass for $20 or so.  The Ken Rad sounds better at 1/3 of the price.  I definitely am a fan of the Ken Rad.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 11, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I have had both and unfortunately group blind listening chose the black glass pretty consistently but you have to remember there are a couple types of black glass, one type does sound closer to the clear but they are not as sought after IMHO.


I have both types of the black glass, and clear glass, and concur with your findings.  As a basshead the KenRad 6SN7 was the first tube I went for and fell in love with at the beginning of my 6SN7 journey.  I was obsessed with them and have quite the stash of all 3 types.


----------



## Ranger Ron

PsilocybinCube said:


> I bought some expensive grey glass RCAs that I liked, then picked up a Ken Rad clear glass for $20 or so.  The Ken Rad sounds better at 1/3 of the price.  I definitely am a fan of the Ken Rad.


What type of plate structure do your kenrads have? I've had the non staggered type and thought they were not on par with the staggered types.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 11, 2020)

Ranger Ron said:


> What type of plate structure do your kenrads have? I've had the non staggered type and thought they were not on par with the staggered types.


The non staggered are later years made by GE, so I imagine that's why they did not sound as good.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> I bought some expensive grey glass RCAs that I liked, then picked up a Ken Rad clear glass for $20 or so.  The Ken Rad sounds better at 1/3 of the price.  I definitely am a fan of the Ken Rad.


Getting into the RCA grey glass is a whole other matter lol. That term has been applied to several different RCA tubes and some are referred to as smoked glass. Get one with a 1942 date code if you can find one.The versions from the war years still rank very high in my testing, oftentimes surpassing Sylvania bad boys.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Wes S said:


> The non staggered are later years made by GE, so I imagine that's why they did not sound as good.


Ahh, of course. G.E. Took everything and turned it to mush. I thought I liked their early GTA for a short time until I put a pair of sylvania GT's back in and couldn't believe the difference.


----------



## Paladin79

Ranger Ron said:


> Ahh, of course. G.E. Took everything and turned it to mush. I thought I liked their early GTA for a short time until I put a pair of sylvania GT's back in and couldn't believe the difference.


I know this sounds silly but I have quite a collection of GE tubes because of bet @bcowen and I made. I need to amend my will and have those bequeathed to Bill. Imagine listening to twenty or twenty-five of those trying to pick out the best year. Luckily I have a lot of friends that helped with those duties although they do flinch a bit when I mention bringing them more tubes to check out.


----------



## LoryWiv

flea22 said:


> Thanks, what I like about these early vt 231 tubes are they are not crazy expensive yet. I will try and find some ken rads local and give them a go. Is black or clear glass better? Hope blacks are better because they would look pretty cool on my euforia!!


I only have the black glass, like them a lot and yes, they look pretty darn classy.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> Getting into the RCA grey glass is a whole other matter lol. That term has been applied to several different RCA tubes and some are referred to as smoked glass. Get one with a 1942 date code if you can find one.The versions from the war years still rank very high in my testing, oftentimes surpassing Sylvania bad boys.


That's what I got.  Actually, they were the matching pair of 1942 RCA grey glass that you linked to several pages back in the thread.  I like them better than the kenrad in certain ways, but less overall.

I will take a pic of the one I'm using now and post it soon.


----------



## tafens

Ranger Ron said:


> indeed that is insane.But! Have you noticed aseller on eBay asking $1,800 apiece for the swedish standard 5692's!? Now that is beyond insane



Ah, the much coveted 33S30, manufactured at “Standard Radiofabrik” (SRF) in Sweden. Only manufactured for about a decade beginning in the late 1940s.

I did a quick search on eBay and found this entry from a seller called tubetroniks at $1800 a piece:
“Single Standard 33S30 (5692 ~6SN7) Sweden NOS NIB Vacuum tube (6 available)”
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224073782368

Is it the same as the one you found?

These do not seem to be the real 33S30. They have a Telefunken logo and “6SN7WGTA” on them, but they should instead be marked with “standard” and “33S30” and look like the images here:
https://tubedatabase.co/tubes/standard-33s30b


----------



## Ranger Ron

tafens said:


> Ah, the much coveted 33S30, manufactured at “Standard Radiofabrik” (SRF) in Sweden. Only manufactured for about a decade beginning in the late 1940s.
> 
> I did a quick search on eBay and found this entry from a seller called tubetroniks at $1800 a piece:
> “Single Standard 33S30 (5692 ~6SN7) Sweden NOS NIB Vacuum tube (6 available)”
> ...


Yes, the same auction I was looking at the other night.  The telefunken stamp is curious. I was always under the impression telefunken never made a 6SN7 type, I guess I still am regardless of these tubes for sale.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 11, 2020)

Ranger Ron said:


> Yes, the same auction I was looking at the other night.  The telefunken stamp is curious. I was always under the impression telefunken never made a 6SN7 type, I guess I still am regardless of these tubes for sale.


Last I checked we had a real one as part of a 52 tube 6sn7 equivalent challenge but it is not in my possession at this time. As far as tubes in general, I try not to say I think this or I think that about a Ken-Rad or RCA grey glass or whatever. It is just one person's opinion. I prefer to say this or that tube has done well in blind listening challenges but see if it is eight tubes, how great are the other tubes?

In the blind tube challenges I have conducted both the 42 RCA grey glass and Ken-RAD black glass did very well but a serious blind listening will come about when I can safely meet in large groups and that certainly could be a while. That will be a more definitive answer for me since 50 people will do the tube grading and there are some very experienced tube users in the mix, as well as performers, audio engineers etc. If a home listener likes one tube over another that is great! After being involved in a few blind listenings, I am hoping this will be more definitive. Other than some people in my local audiophile group, it is not for everyone and there will be some $2,000 tubes in the mix as well as a couple I cannot put a price on. There is a strength in numbers and if on average the top score is an Osram or pair of 6j5's or whatever, that will be the result.  It could be a $20 tube wins this, in which case I will announce the results after I purchase every winner tube on the planet I can find lol.  

I have had friends try blind listening at home and a few can pick out the same tube as their favorite when comparing it to say four others of equal quality. More often than not they give different answers with each listen.

The music and the grading system we use has proven to be more exact. We use 25 criteria and have music that was specially recorded to show off bass, or sound stage or whatever. Even with 20 tubes we have had people score the tubes fairly close on each round of listening, give or take 5 points, it is on a 100 point scale.There are some folks out there that can take any well known tube blind and say consistently this is the RCA grey glass or this is the Ken Rad black glass. I know of two such people.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> It could be a $20 tube wins this, in which case I will announce the results after I purchase every winner tube on the planet I can find lol.



@bcowen : OK, Bill -- how the hell did you hack @Paladin79 's account!!!???    

@Paladin79 :  Are you OK, Tom?  Are you being held against your will?  Do we need to call the police??


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 11, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen : OK, Bill -- how the hell did you hack @Paladin79 's account!!!???
> 
> @Paladin79 :  Are you OK, Tom?  Are you being held against your will?  Do we need to call the police??


Hey I could be sitting on a make believe fortune just like @bcowen if I play my cards right.  I am just not sure if we have anything priced in the $20 range in the top 52, the Frankie did not make the cut.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know this sounds silly but I have quite a collection of GE tubes because of bet @bcowen and I made. I need to amend my will and have those bequeathed to Bill. Imagine listening to twenty or twenty-five of those trying to pick out the best year. Luckily I have a lot of friends that helped with those duties although they do flinch a bit when I mention bringing them more tubes to check out.



It's not the mention of "more tubes."  It's the mention of GE's that make them flinch...or more likely hurl.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen : OK, Bill -- how the hell did you hack @Paladin79 's account!!!???



Tom _can_ be bought.  It just takes more money than most of us older guys have in our retirement accounts.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey I could be sitting on a make believe fortune just like @bcowen if I play my cards right.  I am just not sure if we have anything priced in the $20 range in the top 52, the Frankie did not make the cut.



Totally agree that the Frankie doesn't make the cut in the Incubus. That was one of the first ones I tried in the demo Incubus you sent, and it didn't light my fire at all. Just 'meh' quite honestly.  Haven't even tried it in the final amp you gifted me due to my disappointment in the demo amp.  But it remains one of my favorites in the Lyr 3, and is probably my number 1 favorite in the Vali 2.  Just further highlights how much synergy comes into play with every amp/tube/headphone combo, as well as personal preference.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know this sounds silly but I have quite a collection of GE tubes because of bet @bcowen and I made. I need to amend my will and have those bequeathed to Bill. Imagine listening to twenty or twenty-five of those trying to pick out the best year. Luckily I have a lot of friends that helped with those duties although they do flinch a bit when I mention bringing them more tubes to check out.



If there's no etched dots in the glass, there's a good chance it was made by KenRad in which case even with a GE label it could be an outstanding tube. If it has the etched dots, it's kind of like paying more than full retail price for a car with a salvage title.


----------



## Astral Abyss

Just think, in 50 more years those GEs might be the only tubes left.  Mostly because people listen to them once and stick em in the closet.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If there's no etched dots in the glass, there's a good chance it was made by KenRad in which case even with a GE label it could be an outstanding tube. If it has the etched dots, it's kind of like paying more than full retail price for a car with a salvage title.


Well in our bet, you insisted on GE tubes with the etched dots so that is what I am saving up for you. Anything else I will bequeath to my son. He is also the only one in my family with a chance of figuring out my audio system.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well in our bet, you insisted on GE tubes with the etched dots so that is what I am saving up for you. Anything else I will bequeath to my son. He is also the only one in my family with a chance of figuring out my audio system.



That's harsh.  Can't I have what's currently in your trash can instead?  You know, the one in the kitchen with leftover food scraps?


----------



## bcowen

Astral Abyss said:


> Just think, in 50 more years those GEs might be the only tubes left.  Mostly because people listen to them once and stick em in the closet.



Horrors!  If that's the case, I predict a very rosy future for solid state.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> Horrors!  If that's the case, I predict a very rosy future for solid state.



GE's actually sound worse than solid state?!


----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


> GE's actually sound worse than solid state?!



LOL!  Depends on perspective I guess.  Some people actually _like_ the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard.  I'm not one of them, but there's always the preference thing that ultimately rules.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Depends on perspective I guess.  Some people actually _like_ the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard.  I'm not one of them, but there's always the preference thing that ultimately rules.



Ah, Perspective. 

I think fingernails on a chalkboard may perhaps be preferable to fingernails being pulled off with pliars...


----------



## attmci

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts.558352/

Don't forget these tubes.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Getting into the RCA grey glass is a whole other matter lol. That term has been applied to several different RCA tubes and some are referred to as smoked glass. Get one with a 1942 date code if you can find one.The versions from the war years still rank very high in my testing, oftentimes surpassing Sylvania bad boys.


I have 6 of RCA grey.smoked glass, slightly different. Will check over the weekend and report.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have 6 of RCA grey.smoked glass, slightly different. Will check over the weekend and report.



It is damn difficult to see what is inside! It appears that five of them - all labeled RCA one way or another have the same typr round mica on top and staggered plates. One is labeled Admiral and it has a round top mica with slightly cut-off straight sides. That's my two cents, but not much help.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 18, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> It is damn difficult to see what is inside! It appears that five of them - all labeled RCA one way or another have the same typr round mica on top and staggered plates. One is labeled Admiral and it has a round top mica with slightly cut-off straight sides. That's my two cents, but not much help.


I just got a Tung Sol grey glass that is decent. I am trying it in a new amp but not in a casual way, some wiring and wood finishing are yet to be done.


I do have a control pot rigged up on the inside and it is relatively safe to reach under there since a lot of the dangerous stuff is on the outside right now.


----------



## adeadcrab

Besides the voltage difference, is a 12SN7 identical to the 6SN7? Do the same brands and models sound similar?


----------



## gibosi

adeadcrab said:


> Besides the voltage difference, is a 12SN7 identical to the 6SN7? Do the same brands and models sound similar?



Assuming that they have the same construction, that is the only difference is the heater, in my experience they do.


----------



## dazKewl

Deyan said:


> Well waiting for an answer for the transformer regarding the tube tester project.



Any update on this by any chance, Deyan? Sorry if there's a post by you after this one--I may have missed it.


----------



## Deyan

dazKewl said:


> Any update on this by any chance, Deyan? Sorry if there's a post by you after this one--I may have missed it.



Well....there are other posts after this, but they basically say the same thing. 
At thing I'm giving up hope in the first two companies I spoke with and I'll probably try another one.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2020)

Deyan said:


> Well....there are other posts after this, but they basically say the same thing.
> At thing I'm giving up hope in the first two companies I spoke with and I'll probably try another one.


@Deyan , if you can PM me some info on the transformer you seek I can see what I can locate. I have been using some Russian made transformers for tube amps and I can see what else my contacts have. The one I use here would be too expensive and most likely overkill.

In keeping with this thread I am using a grey glass Tung Sol for some early tests on this amp. Eventually there will be a transformer cover, dual pots, etc. This represents about two days work, this is not a kit so I figure things out as I go....the Incubus Elegan amp. One of two I hope to keep for myself.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> One of two I hope to keep for myself.



But wait....I want that one.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> But wait....I want that one.


Of course you do dear. You probably also want a swimsuit model to join you in your stereo room wearing nothing but a smile but that will most likely not happen either. You will just have to settle for your amp and one of Ripper's barbie dolls.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 19, 2020)

Thanks for the plug, Tom. 

@bcowen  --  I've checked my stable and 'Trailer Park Barbie' just happens to be available.  I'll give you a sweetheart hourly rate.  Credit Cards are accepted.


----------



## Deyan

Paladin79 said:


> @Deyan , if you can PM me some info on the transformer you seek I can see what I can locate. I have been using some Russian made transformers for tube amps and I can see what else my contacts have. The one I use here would be too expensive and most likely overkill.
> 
> In keeping with this thread I am using a grey glass Tung Sol for some early tests on this amp. Eventually there will be a transformer cover, dual pots, etc. This represents about two days work, this is not a kit so I figure things out as I go....the Incubus Elegan amp. One of two I hope to keep for myself.




I'll try and see what I can do from here. An international order would be quite a bit priceyer.


----------



## Paladin79

Deyan said:


> I'll try and see what I can do from here. An international order would be quite a bit priceyer.


Very true, shipping heavy transformers from Russia is not cheap but they are what I want to use.


----------



## Deyan

That is a different case. As of today I believe there are 11 people interested in the project, so about a kilo each - I don't even want to calculate it. 
On the other hand the overnight delivery here is 3$


----------



## dazKewl

Deyan said:


> That is a different case. As of today I believe there are 11 people interested in the project, so about a kilo each - I don't even want to calculate it.
> On the other hand the overnight delivery here is 3$



Hopefully you counted me as part of the 11


----------



## Deyan

I did 😊


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Of course you do dear. You probably also want a swimsuit model to join you in your stereo room wearing nothing but a smile but that will most likely not happen either. You will just have to settle for your amp and one of Ripper's barbie dolls.



I'm thinking there's a higher probability of the swimsuit model materializing... 

All of @Ripper2860 's barbie dolls are infected with Covid-69.  No thanks.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2020)

You made fun of the ladder pot turbines so the amp is not for you anyway.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> @Deyan , if you can PM me some info on the transformer you seek I can see what I can locate. I have been using some Russian made transformers for tube amps and I can see what else my contacts have. The one I use here would be too expensive and most likely overkill.
> 
> In keeping with this thread I am using a grey glass Tung Sol for some early tests on this amp. Eventually there will be a transformer cover, dual pots, etc. This represents about two days work, this is not a kit so I figure things out as I go....the Incubus Elegan amp. One of two I hope to keep for myself.


Does mine have a sexy tranny like that one??


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 21, 2020)

Tranny?




Oh.  You meant transformer.  Never mind ...


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 19, 2020)

flea22 said:


> Thanks, what I like about these early vt 231 tubes are they are not crazy expensive yet. I will try and find some ken rads local and give them a go. Is black or clear glass better? Hope blacks are better because they would look pretty cool on my euforia!!


Rolling the clear glass right now and it's not better than the Black Beauty.. warmer and headroom not as rounded as the Blackness.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh.  You meant transformer.  Never mind ...


😂😂 I was wondering who was gonna bite first. .. 🤪🤣🤣


----------



## dazKewl

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh.  You meant transformer.  Never mind ...



Is this.... is this.. Mimi from Drew Carey Show?! I'm not too old for recognizing her! YOU are too old!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Does mine have a sexy tranny like that one??


It’s all I use but eventually there is a transformer cover. I am building mine with copper. That will be the last step.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 19, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> You made fun of the ladder pot turbines so the amp is not for you anyway.



Aw, man.  Can't you take a joke?  I'll even take back everything @Ripper2860 has said about you.  That's pretty magnanimous of me.  

But what I'm really waiting for is a pic of that Faraday cage to copy...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Aw, man.  Can't you take a joke?  I'll even take back everything @Ripper2860 has said about you.  That's pretty magnanimous of me.
> 
> But what I'm really waiting for is a pic that Faraday cage to copy...



That will be the very last step in the process. I want to use a very fine copper mesh and it needs to match the steampunk theme.


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Rolling the clear glass right now and it's not better than the Black Beauty.. warmer and headroom not as rounded as the Blackness.


My thoughts exactly on the 2.  I always prefer my black glass version 1.


----------



## Paladin79

An example of a Marconi not made by GE, three hole black plate might look a little familiar.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> An example of a Marconi not made by GE, three hole black plate might look a little familiar.


Bad Boy


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Bad Boy


This is not exactly the same as the Marconi I sent you, but close.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> This is not exactly the same as the Marconi I sent you, but close.


I was hoping it was one of these!! 😂


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> An example of a Marconi not made by GE, three hole black plate might look a little familiar.


Marconi of Canada, by chance? or a Sylvania rebranded Bad Boy?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I was hoping it was one of these!! 😂


Close but no cigar. Marconi is spelled the same though, practically the same thing only different.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 20, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Marconi of Canada, by chance? or a Sylvania rebranded Bad Boy?


I would say a Sylvania rebrand. There are other names on this very same tube I have located as well.



Finnegan is helping me test it, I need to plug tubes into sockets quickly or they become cat toys.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4X-V-Good-...613550?hash=item56df8af5ee:g:JQIAAOSwSkhfAhN4

Plenty of these out there for reasonable prices.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I would say a Sylvania rebrand. There are other names on this very same tube I have located as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In the pictures, "Canada" is etched into the glass. Further, these Marconi are GTB, which were first introduced in 1954, while the Sylvania is the older GT. I also notice that these have rectangular getters whereas Bad Boys have the older foil getters. Marconi may well have sourced the internals from Sylvania, but I feel quite certain the Marconis are not rebrands.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> In the pictures, "Canada" is etched into the glass. Further, these Marconi are GTB, which were first introduced in 1954, while the Sylvania is the older GT. I also notice that these have rectangular getters whereas Bad Boys have the older foil getters. Marconi may well have sourced the internals from Sylvania, but I feel quite certain the Marconis are not rebrands.


Probably so, the Canada is not etched on the one I have but the getter is as you say, nearly d shaped. I got this cheap, and it is not a bad sounding tube but I have not run all of my test material through it. I mainly grabbed it because @bcowen mentioned some GE Marconi.    And I wanted to mess with him.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 20, 2020)

gibosi said:


> In the pictures, "Canada" is etched into the glass. Further, these Marconi are GTB, which were first introduced in 1954, while the Sylvania is the older GT. I also notice that these have rectangular getters whereas Bad Boys have the older foil getters. Marconi may well have sourced the internals from Sylvania, but I feel quite certain the Marconis are not rebrands.


Rectangular getter.....did you mean mica?


----------



## Wes S (Jul 20, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Sguare getter.....did you mean mica?


I sure can't see them from the pic, but I think he means they have a square bottom getter,  instead of foil bottom getter (of which a true Bad Boy has).


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> I sure can't see them from the pic, but I think he means they have a square bottom getter,  instead of foil bottom getter (of which a true Bad Boy has).


I did not mean mica and technically we are probably talking getter holder but terms do get thrown around.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Plenty of these out there for reasonable prices.



Awwwww, man.  I thought you were talking about some of these:


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I did not mean mica and technically we are probably talking getter holder but terms do get thrown around.


I'm stuck on 101 terminology here...where the plates sit between the micas... And the getter is what holds that flashing materials...so do I need to go back to class?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm stuck on 101 terminology here...where the plates sit between the micas... And the getter is what holds that flashing materials...so do I need to go back to class?



Yes.  You were probably under the bleachers smoking a joint with some skanky girl when that was discussed in class.  Or wait...that might have been me. 

The getter itself is actually the (mostly) barium compound that leaves the silver coating (or silvery-black in a lot of Russian tubes) on the inside of the glass. What most all of us commonly refer to as the getter is actually the getter _holder_, or what holds that little pellet of getter compound until it's hit with a voltage causing it to flash and disperse inside the tube during manufacture.


----------



## Ripper2860

It's how they 'getter' done.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 20, 2020)

It's all about the getter, and I will take a D or Square anyday, over an O!


----------



## Ripper2860

You got something against a 'horse shoe' getter?


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> It's all about the getter, and I will take a D or Square anyday, over an O!


Double Ds for me... 😎😝


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Double Ds for me... 😎😝



ROFL!   So it *was* you with the skanky girl...


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!   So it *was* you with the skanky girl...


You know I really never paid attention to what type of getter rings these Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes carried, have one late 51' and the other early 53' and needed a flashlight to get a good look down there...a little pan? what!?


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> You know I really never paid attention to what type of getter rings these Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes carried, have one late 51' and the other early 53' and needed a flashlight to get a good look down there...a little pan? what!?



And also notice the color of the flashing. A true Bad Boy has that mirror-like chrome flashing while the Canadian Marconi's have a fairly black flashing.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 20, 2020)

gibosi said:


> And also notice the color of the flashing. A true Bad Boy has that mirror-like chrome flashing while the Canadian Marconi's have a fairly black flashing.


Check out the flash on this one...(rebranded Motorola)



Use to have these below..


----------



## Wes S (Jul 21, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> You got something against a 'horse shoe' getter?


I knew I was leaving something out.  . .I definitely would take a horse shoe, over an O as well.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 21, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yes.  You were probably under the bleachers smoking a joint with some skanky girl when that was discussed in class.  Or wait...that might have been me.
> 
> The getter itself is actually the (mostly) barium compound that leaves the silver coating (or silvery-black in a lot of Russian tubes) on the inside of the glass. What most all of us commonly refer to as the getter is actually the getter _holder_, or what holds that little pellet of getter compound until it's hit with a voltage causing it to flash and disperse inside the tube during manufacture.



I knew that Bill would offer an explanation of the getter holder, sorry I was a bit busy last night. The purpose of the getter is to complete and maintain the vacuum inside a tube. The getter combines with or absorbs gas molecules.

The first time I heard someone say a D shaped getter I just scratched my head, later I realized the term had morphed a bit.

What is the opposite of a vacuum?  A plenum.....


----------



## Wes S (Jul 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Check out the flash on this one...(rebranded Motorola)
> 
> 
> Use to have these below..


Nice!  Those bottom one's with the JAN - CHS written on them, are the actual original "Bad Boy".  That was the exact version, that started all the Bad Boy madness.  Obviously we have discovered rebrands and civilian versions though too.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> Nice!  Those bottom one's with the JAN - CHS written on them, are the actual original "Bad Boy".  That was the exact version, that started all the Bad Boy madness.  Obviously we have discovered rebrands and civilian versions though too.


I concur, I use to be a stickler with that, and policed it with a vengeance...lol. I did my research and when I finally got them anyone who had a consumer version or rebrand claiming them as a Bad Boy. . ...it was on!! But I'm over it, kinda. The JAN-CHS are a taller build than consumers so there's a difference. Now I'm on a hunt again for these guys.... Sigh..


----------



## Wes S (Jul 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I concur, I use to be a stickler with that, and policed it with a vengeance...lol. I did my research and when I finally got them anyone who had a consumer version or rebrand claiming them as a Bad Boy. . ...it was on!! But I'm over it, kinda. The JAN-CHS are a taller build than consumers so there's a difference. Now I'm on a hunt again for these guys.... Sigh..


That's cool you noticed the taller bottles!  I actually have 2 civilian pairs, and one pair is much taller than the other.  I did not really notice a difference in sound though, but I wonder if there might be something to it.  I often notice that the earlier versions of a particular tube tend to be taller more times than not, and it's funny how earlier tubes usually sound better.  Seems maybe as the years went by they figured out they could save money on glass, by cutting down the size?


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> That's cool you noticed the taller bottles!  I actually have 2 civilian pairs, and one pair is much taller than the other.  I did not really notice a difference in sound though, but I wonder if there might be something to it.  I often notice that the earlier versions of a particular tube tend to be taller more times than not, and it's funny how earlier tubes usually sound better.  Seems maybe as the years went by they figured out they could save money on glass, by cutting down the size?


Makes you wonder when GE really took over ... They messed up Ken Rad real good...


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Makes you wonder when GE really took over ... They messed up Ken Rad real good...


That tube definitely comes to mind, when talking about height, and I was actually going to say that.   The earliest taller bottle version of the black glass KenRad is the best.


----------



## gibosi

Wes S said:


> Seems maybe as the years went by they figured out they could save money on glass, by cutting down the size?



And the need to occupy less space in the equipment. Just like today, miniaturization has been an important engineering goal since the beginning.


----------



## Wes S

gibosi said:


> And the need to occupy less space in the equipment. Just like today, miniaturization has been an important engineering goal since the beginning.


Makes since, however I wonder how that affects the sound?


----------



## gibosi

Wes S said:


> Makes since, however I wonder how that affects the sound?



Everything else being the same, just a shorter bottle, I'm not sure the size of the bottle has any affect on the sound. But it might. However, given that the 6SN7 was originally designed as an RF amplifier, the engineers likely never considered how design changes might affect audio response.


----------



## Wes S

gibosi said:


> Everything else being the same, just a shorter bottle, I'm not sure the size of the bottle has any affect on the sound. But it might. However, given that the 6SN7 was originally designed as an RF amplifier, the engineers likely never considered how design changes might affect audio response.


I am thinking it might have some effect, as I almost always prefer a tall version to the short if there is both options.


----------



## gibosi

Wes S said:


> I am thinking it might have some effect, as I almost always prefer a tall version to the short if there is both options.



Similarly, I usually prefer the oldest version. And sometimes the oldest version is taller, but not always.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Makes you wonder when GE really took over ... They messed up Ken Rad real good...


According to my Tube Lore book, GE purchased Ken-Rad in 1944. I believe I read some of the Ken-Rad tubes may have been marked GE for a short time.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Everything else being the same, just a shorter bottle, I'm not sure the size of the bottle has any affect on the sound. But it might. However, given that the 6SN7 was originally designed as an RF amplifier, the engineers likely never considered how design changes might affect audio response.


Who know these war time parts would be used for music. Veazy


Paladin79 said:


> According to my Tube Lore book, GE purchased Ken-Rad in 1944. I believe I read some of the Ken-Rad tubes may have been marked GE for a short time.


I think Ken Rad (build) stayed intact till after 1950...when GE started changing things..


----------



## JKDJedi

And when did GE purchase Sylvania? Or is that a myth.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 21, 2020)

Maybe you're confusing GE with GTE.  I believe GTE purchased Sylvania LAMP / bulb division -- not vacuum tubes, IIRC.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> And when did GE purchase Sylvania? Or is that a myth.


I believe it was Philips who bought Sylvania.


----------



## Paladin79

This is part of a blind 6sn7 tube test I am working on. I just need to locate the proper size internal sleeve of aluminum that will fit over the glass portion of the tube and then it is a done deal. Vented at the top and with that sleeve, glass height will not be recognizable as in this example. Very sturdy yet it can be cut away easily to remove the tube later on. Also extensions are used with all tubes so a glimpse of the original tube base is not seen. The heat shrink tubing requires 257 degrees F, 125 C to shrink.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> This is part of a blind 6sn7 tube test I am working on. I just need to locate the proper size internal sleeve of aluminum that will fit over the glass portion of the tube and then it is a done deal. Vented at the top and with that sleeve, glass height will not be recognizable as in this example. Very sturdy yet it can be cut away easily to remove the tube later on. Also extensions are used with all tubes so a glimpse of the original tube base is not seen. The heat shrink tubing requires 257 degrees F, 125 C to shrink.


Oh my..... 😳☺ (I'll let @Ripper2860 & @bcowen finish that 🤣)


----------



## Gazny (Jul 21, 2020)

I have a feeling that is the black glass Ken Rad, though it would be funny if it was a GE tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Gazny said:


> I have a feel that is the black glass Ken Rad, though it would be funny if it was a GE tube.


Is that a Ken Rad in your pocket...or ya just happy to see me .. 😂


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 21, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Oh my..... 😳☺ (I'll let @Ripper2860 & @bcowen finish that 🤣)



'No Glove -- No Tube Love'.   'Wrap it before you roll it'.

There -- is that enough?


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> 'No Glove -- No Tube Love'.   'Wrap it before you roll it'.
> 
> There -- is that enough?


😁😆😂


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> And also notice the color of the flashing. A true Bad Boy has that mirror-like chrome flashing while the Canadian Marconi's have a fairly black flashing.



Uh-oh.  A "pan" getter?  Is it a flat pan or more like a UFO getter? And black-ish flashing?  Both big-time indications of Russian manufacture...


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Uh-oh.  A "pan" getter?  Is it a flat pan or more like a UFO getter? And black-ish flashing?  Both big-time indications of Russian manufacture...


I'll try and get a photo of that tonight. 🤞


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Everything else being the same, just a shorter bottle, I'm not sure the size of the bottle has any affect on the sound. But it might. However, given that the 6SN7 was originally designed as an RF amplifier, the engineers likely never considered how design changes might affect audio response.



Pretty big difference in short bottle versus tall bottle 7N7's IME.  Can't say the same about 6SN7's, as I have both tall bottles and short bottles that sound good.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'll try and get a photo of that tonight. 🤞



UFO getter (holder).  Sometimes it's flipped 180 degrees, perhaps due to an inebriated alien pilot. 

Although I can't say this as a certainty, but I've never seen this style getter holder on anything but Russian tubes.  






This particular tube was made in England....you know, the part that was annexed by Russia.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And when did GE purchase Sylvania? Or is that a myth.



If GE purchased Sylvania, I suddenly hate Sylvania tubes.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Oh my..... 😳☺ (I'll let @Ripper2860 & @bcowen finish that 🤣)



ROFL!!  I would need a longer piece for my, um, tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  I would need a longer piece for my, um, tube.


Hah!!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 21, 2020)

It's a CONSPIRACY!!!!!

(Sylvania 6AS7G -- Made in Germany -- NOT!!)


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  I would need a longer piece for my, um, tube.



Delusions of Grandeur.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> It's a CONSPIRACY!!!!!
> 
> (Sylvania 6SN7G)


Racing home!! Need to find out quick!!! The humanity!!! NOOOOOOO!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 21, 2020)

Edit: Not A UFO!!! I ts rectangular..... Whew!!
Who am I kidding....it's a UFO.... ☹ Is it?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 21, 2020)

I'm ok guys.... 😁

Edit: My power went out... so had to wait couple hours to roll this thing.. and ..sounds like a Sylvania, Rolls like one..maybe I just. *psyched myself out*  ... Thanks @bcowen  !! while power was out I was searching Sylvania listings(on my phone) and some getter photos, similar to mine, rectangular.. but so odd that middle section of the getter plate.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Wes S said:


> I am thinking it might have some effect, as I almost always prefer a tall version to the short if there is both options.


I call it a "larger tube = better sound bias syndrome". I have an acute condition of it


----------



## G0rt

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I call it a "larger tube = better sound bias syndrome". I have an acute condition of it



Maybe there's more subtlety to be found in expansive thermionic emissions?


----------



## Paladin79

So anyway the tube concealment is a way for my local audiophile group to hear candidates for our 52 tube challenge without knowing if we are about to hear a $20 tube or a $1,000 tube. Currently eight of us score the tubes using the same music that will be used in our final testing and we are not influenced by price or brand name or what others might say about a particular tube. I checked some out over the weekend and two scored in the high nineties but seven other friends will score them as well. When all is done we hope to have the top 52 6sn7 equivalents made for our testing. We are all using the same type amps but headphones can vary a bit, most use Sennheisers and the HD 800's will be used in the final testing. Currently we have around 110 different tubes to choose from to get to the final 52. Within RCA for example we would test Grey glass, black glass, red base 5692's etc. We have already done a lot of blind testing on 6j5's and Psvanes since their shapes might exclude them from the current blind listening tests.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 22, 2020)

I take it you did not find the onslaught of comedic genius funny?  

That should work nicely if it can be adapted to also cover the base -- unless that's a socket-saver and all tubes will look the same.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 22, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I take it you did not find the onslaught of comedic genius funny?
> 
> That should work nicely if it can be adapter to also cover the base -- unless that's a socket-saver and all tubes will look the same.



it was funny, I posted many likes. Right now I am in more of a serious mode about tube types, amps, and testing

I already have adapters so those all look alike, I want to use an internal sleeve so different tube heights do not show. This can be cut away in a minute and no harm is done to expensive tubes.  This is mainly so we can check out new candidates. The tops have a very fine mesh to let heat out but you cannot read the tube tops.


----------



## tafens

Paladin79 said:


> Currently we have around 110 different tubes to choose from to get to the final 52.



Did you include any new production tubes among the candidates? Would be interesting to know how they fare against the vintage ones.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> So anyway the tube concealment is a way for my local audiophile group to hear candidates for our 52 tube challenge without knowing if we are about to hear a $20 tube or a $1,000 tube. Currently eight of us score the tubes using the same music that will be used in our final testing and we are not influenced by price or brand name or what others might say about a particular tube. I checked some out over the weekend and two scored in the high nineties but seven other friends will score them as well. When all is done we hope to have the top 52 6sn7 equivalents made for our testing. We are all using the same type amps but headphones can vary a bit, most use Sennheisers and the HD 800's will be used in the final testing. Currently we have around 110 different tubes to choose from to get to the final 52. Within RCA for example we would test Grey glass, black glass, red base 5692's etc. We have already done a lot of blind testing on 6j5's and Psvanes since their shapes might exclude them from the current blind listening tests.


I'm blown away that there's 100 different tubes to narrow down... To 52!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'm blown away that there's 100 different tubes to narrow down... To 52!


Think about all the great variables within brands. Sylvania, Tung Sol, RCA, Ken-Rad, CBS/Hytron, GEC, Brimar, Marconi Italiana, Melz, PSvane, Amperex, National Union, Westinghouse, Mullard, Hitachi, Raytheon, and Bill's GE tubes.(so far none have made the grade.)  And we are doing equivalents so we have some single triode tubes. We also have three tubes produced in a lab that never hit the market and they rate right up there with some of the best. I loaned some tubes to the group but nothing in the $1,000 up range, I want to say there are nearly ten in that ball park or higher.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Scored a decent little haul of 6sn7 tubes off an ebay seller.  There were a few others that didn't sound good that I didn't include in the pic.  Overall paid about $30 or so.  This was from the seller Ibismachine (I own an Ibis mountain bike so I was intrigued by the name, which I realize is totally arbitrary).  It seems like they sell their non-matched tubes for fairly cheap.

The Ken Rad sounds great, though now I need to try the black glass for comparison...
The Sylvania that is sitting solo in the pic is my favorite so far, but I also enjoy the taller Sylvania (which I think is a bad boy???)
I'm not a measurements expert, and I don't know that measurements from an ebay seller are necessarily to be trusted from everything I've read, but can anyone illuminate me as to what the measurements on the Sylvania mean????

And yes, that's a wonderfully working @Deyan adapter.

As a total newbie to the tube thing I'll take any advice I can get on how to read these measurements.  Reading up on them online gets my head swimming in language I don't quite understand quickly.  

I'm about 5 months into this money sinking tube addiction and my SS amps feel neglected.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Scored a decent little haul of 6sn7 tubes off an ebay seller.  There were a few others that didn't sound good that I didn't include in the pic.  Overall paid about $30 or so.  This was from the seller Ibismachine (I own an Ibis mountain bike so I was intrigued by the name, which I realize is totally arbitrary).  It seems like they sell their non-matched tubes for fairly cheap.
> 
> The Ken Rad sounds great, though now I need to try the black glass for comparison...
> The Sylvania that is sitting solo in the pic is my favorite so far, but I also enjoy the taller Sylvania (which I think is a bad boy???)
> ...


How's that yellow one sound? The one with the full getter flash tip and down


----------



## Ranger Ron

PsilocybinCube said:


> Scored a decent little haul of 6sn7 tubes off an ebay seller.  There were a few others that didn't sound good that I didn't include in the pic.  Overall paid about $30 or so.  This was from the seller Ibismachine (I own an Ibis mountain bike so I was intrigued by the name, which I realize is totally arbitrary).  It seems like they sell their non-matched tubes for fairly cheap.
> 
> The Ken Rad sounds great, though now I need to try the black glass for comparison...
> The Sylvania that is sitting solo in the pic is my favorite so far, but I also enjoy the taller Sylvania (which I think is a bad boy???)
> ...


Nice score. The tube in the middle looks like a real gem. Have you listened to it yet?


----------



## JKDJedi

Ranger Ron said:


> Nice score. The tube in the middle looks like a real gem. Have you listened to it yet?


My thoughts exact.. looks like a rebranding of the Chrome Dome.. wondering what year it is. Could we get a pic of the date code?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ranger Ron said:


> Nice score. The tube in the middle looks like a real gem. Have you listened to it yet?


It sounds great.  It's a bit v-shaped to be sure, but I kind of like that with the HD800 since they can be lean.  The treble is super-transparent.  The tube is kind of loud overall...not in a bad way and certainly not a hint of distortion, and I don't know if that makes sense, but it's just more dynamic than some of the Sylvanias I've been listening to.  Not a hint of microphonics (which I've struggled with on the other cheapo tubes I've purchased).

The yellow tube says FM & Co.  I've never heard of that brand before.  

Sorry for the bad pics...I'm listening and taking pictures at the same time.  The top of the tube says 6SN7GT  H8A



.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 23, 2020)

I believe it's FMCo -- Ford Motor Company. They used to have automobile tube radios and so had their own brand of tubes (made by Sylvania), IIRC.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> It sounds great.  It's a bit v-shaped to be sure, but I kind of like that with the HD800 since they can be lean.  The treble is super-transparent.  The tube is kind of loud overall...not in a bad way and certainly not a hint of distortion, and I don't know if that makes sense, but it's just more dynamic than some of the Sylvanias I've been listening to.  Not a hint of microphonics (which I've struggled with on the other cheapo tubes I've purchased).
> 
> The yellow tube says FM & Co.  I've never heard of that brand before.
> 
> ...


The 312 is Sylvania EIA Code. 8 is the year it was made (most likely 1948 since Sylvania GT tubes were not manufactured after 53') and the 52 is weeks...December tube baby. This is a Sylvania made tube rebranded for FM & Co. ...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I believe it's FMCo -- Ford Motor Company. They used to have automobile tube radios and so had their own brand of tubes (made by Sylvania), IIRC.



Ford would have used Philco branding, although they still could easily have been made by Sylvania.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> Ford would have used Philco branding, although they still could easily have been made by Sylvania.


All of you folks know everything.  I am thoroughly impressed by how well all of you know tubes.

Thanks for helping a new guy to the tube world.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Ford would have used Philco branding, although they still could easily have been made by Sylvania.


The Marconi only @bcowen  could love...


----------



## bcowen (Jul 24, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The Marconi only @bcowen  could love...



LOL!  I'll have to love it vicariously because a certain person didn't send me one (I won't mention any names because I don't want to get @Paladin79 in trouble). 

Oh, and what's that UFO getter-ed Russkie 6H13 doing in there?  You have like a truckload of to-die-for output tubes.  But at least it's not a GE I guess...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 24, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'll have to love it vicariously because a certain person didn't send me one (I won't mention any names because I don't want to get @Paladin79 in trouble).
> 
> Oh, and what's that UFO getter-ed Russkie 6H13 doing in there?  You have like a truckload of to-die-for output tubes.  But at least it's not a GE I guess...


That is a 1967 version of the Russian power tube, so a different number was used 6n5s I believe.

And since you insist I will have to send you a GE tube now, I have to get rid of them somehow.  
I hope to finish up an amp this weekend that will be suitable for the very best 6sn7's, it is starting to come together. I have not started the transformer cover, I need to think seriously about that.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> That is a 1967 version of the Russian power tube, so a different number was used 6n5s I believe.
> 
> And since you insist I will have to send you a GE tube now, I have to get rid of them somehow.
> I hope to finish up an amp this weekend that will be suitable for the very best 6sn7's, it is starting to come together. I have not started the transformer cover, I need to think seriously about that.


That's gonna be one serious build...looking good, cant wait to see the finished product.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 24, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> That's gonna be one serious build...looking good, cant wait to see the finished product.


I am working on a copper Faraday cage that @bcowen seems anxious to emulate, I will post a photo when all is done. Hopefully this weekend.

I was out of double wall cardboard so I ended up having to use real wood, from a tree on Bill's amp.


----------



## Ripper2860

Sadly, the prototype 'Plastic Litterbox Amp' build for Bill couldn't hold up to the heat.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was out of double wall cardboard so I ended up having to use real wood, from a tree on Bill's amp.



Yes, I was most disappointed that I didn't get the cardboard I'd requested, but hey...never look a gift horse in the mouth, right?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Sadly, the prototype 'Plastic Litterbox Amp' build for Bill couldn't hold up to the heat.



That was pretty much not my fault.  There was no O&M manual that came with the amp, so there was no way for me to know I was supposed to fill it with litter first.  Live and learn, I guess.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 25, 2020)

bcowen said:


> That was pretty much not my fault.  There was no O&M manual that came with the amp, so there was no way for me to know I was supposed to fill it with litter first.  Live and learn, I guess.



I can certainly make you an owner’s manual but I would have to charge $10 a word. The amp was free but a manual would require some thought since you wanted the amp built sideways.  

You have already messed with the only things you have access to, hard telling what kind of strange tubes you have plugged into the poor amp.


----------



## Gazny (Jul 26, 2020)

Anyone have a bright sounding tube with lean bass recommendation for me? I could go for that right now. Thanks no bass monster tubes please


----------



## JKDJedi

Gazny said:


> Anyone have a bright sounding tube with lean bass recommendation for me? I could go for that right now. Thanks no bass monster tubes please


GE


----------



## sfleming

tried this Philco 6f8g in the 6sn7 slot in the Dennis Had Inspire the other day. I'm going to keep it there for a while to get a good feeling for it before swapping back in the 6sn7 'bad boy' to do a full comparison. Initial impression is quite good. "Light, airy, detailed" are what first came t mind for me.


----------



## gibosi

sfleming said:


> tried this Philco 6f8g in the 6sn7 slot in the Dennis Had Inspire the other day. I'm going to keep it there for a while to get a good feeling for it before swapping back in the 6sn7 'bad boy' to do a full comparison. Initial impression is quite good. "Light, airy, detailed" are what first came t mind for me.



Philco didn't make their own tubes. Most were made by Sylvania. If I am reading the date code correctly, "2 U", that tube was manufactured  in the third quarter of 1942.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Gazny said:


> Anyone have a bright sounding tube with lean bass recommendation for me? I could go for that right now. Thanks no bass monster tubes please


Sylvania GTA with three hole opposing plates, not angled. Bright but spaciously pleasing, and lean.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 26, 2020)

Gazny said:


> Anyone have a bright sounding tube with lean bass recommendation for me? I could go for that right now. Thanks no bass monster tubes please


Take a look at the Westinghouse 6SN7GTB Black Plate D Getter.  These tubes have an airy neutral sound with a great soundstage, and were quite popular with the Lyr 3 crowd (me included).  They can be found quite often for decent prices, and if I was looking for some, I would seriously consider this pair, from my favorite eBay seller. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114239016526


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Gazny said:


> Anyone have a bright sounding tube with lean bass recommendation for me? I could go for that right now. Thanks no bass monster tubes please


A new production tung sol (it has redish base if memory serves correct) is bright and lean on base.  Tube depot sells them for cheap. 
https://tubedepot.com/products/tung...Eg3LOGyUGxCAA-Sk9FPfSM0IKCZF76BBoC9CUQAvD_BwE


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 26, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> A new production tung sol (it has redish base if memory serves correct) is bright and lean on base.  Tube depot sells them for cheap.
> https://tubedepot.com/products/tung...Eg3LOGyUGxCAA-Sk9FPfSM0IKCZF76BBoC9CUQAvD_BwE


That one and the Electro-Harmonix. Both carbon copy builds (minus the base color) and made by the same company.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Philco didn't make their own tubes. Most were made by Sylvania. If I am reading the date code correctly, "2 U", that tube was manufactured  in the third quarter of 1942.


It's a Sylvania. Great tube!


----------



## Odin412

Gazny said:


> Anyone have a bright sounding tube with lean bass recommendation for me? I could go for that right now. Thanks no bass monster tubes please



Here are a couple of notes from my tube travels:













Keep in mind that I'm very treble-sensitive. YMMV, as always.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 26, 2020)

Many of the Melz tubes like this one are not bass heavy by any stretch of the imagination. Superb mids and highs. 
If the use is in a headphone amp, think about Beyerdynamics, they are not for everyone and I modded a couple pairs just to up the bass a bit.


----------



## bcowen

Gazny said:


> Anyone have a bright sounding tube with lean bass recommendation for me? I could go for that right now. Thanks no bass monster tubes please



Easy.  Philips ECG.  Bright, aggressive, and no audible bass below 60 hertz.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can certainly make you an owner’s manual but I would have to charge $10 a word. The amp was free but a manual would require some thought since you wanted the amp built sideways.
> 
> You have already messed with the only things you have access to, hard telling what kind of strange tubes you have plugged into the poor amp.



I've only tried tubes that fit in the sockets without use of a hammer.  You're being way too hard on me.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I've only tried tubes that fit in the sockets without use of a hammer.  You're being way too hard on me.


I put you on the same level as Finnegan when it comes to messing around with things you should not.😉


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I put you on the same level as Finnegan when it comes to messing around with things you should not.😉



I consider it a compliment that you've elevated me to the level of Finnegan!  Somehow I feel better now.


----------



## Paladin79

I have several 6c8-G’s but the only one I could find easily is a JAN RCA with round plates.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I have several 6c8-G’s but the only one I could find easily is a JAN RCA with round plates.


From memory, I believe the 6C8G have a higher output than the 6F8G, which would be great for mid to low impedance headphones.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> From memory, I believe the 6C8G have a higher output than the 6F8G, which would be great for mid to low impedance headphones.


Luckily the Incubus does well down to fifty ohms or so so I have been using OPPO PM-1 and Alpha Primes with it. I would have to think about a tubes gain affecting output impedance, OTL's generally run a higher voltage and less current, but if the current were increased I suppose it might help. It's been a long weekend so it is time for music and some single malt.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Luckily the Incubus does well down to fifty ohms or so so I have been using OPPO PM-1 and Alpha Primes with it. I would have to think about a tubes gain affecting output impedance, OTL's generally run a higher voltage and less current, but if the current were increased I suppose it might help. It's been a long weekend so it is time for music and some single malt.


Enjoy... Well deserved break.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Luckily the Incubus does well down to fifty ohms or so so I have been using OPPO PM-1 and Alpha Primes with it. I would have to think about a tubes gain affecting output impedance, OTL's generally run a higher voltage and less current, but if the current were increased I suppose it might help. It's been a long weekend so it is time for music and some single malt.



BTW - Incubus drives my 35 ohm Hifiman Arya HPs wonderfully.  😉


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 26, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW - Incubus drives my 35 ohm Hifiman Arya HPs wonderfully.  😉


Hmmmm might have to try that later on with the Hifiman...that would totally blow me away.

Edit: Well... high impedance headphones have something going for them with OTL amps... that's all I'm gonna say about it..


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Hmmmm might have to try that later on with the Hifiman...that would totally blow me away.
> 
> Edit: Well... high impedance headphones have something going for them with OTL amps... that's all I'm gonna say about it..


Be careful making a statement about any headphone responding well to OTL amps on Reddit in the r/headphone sub.  I still get hateful messages for saying some headphones respond well to OTL and even more hate for bringing up the idea of gear pairing.
The general concensus over there is 'clean power measured by robots' over tubes any day.  Freaking objectivists.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Hmmmm might have to try that later on with the Hifiman...that would totally blow me away.
> 
> Edit: Well... high impedance headphones have something going for them with OTL amps... that's all I'm gonna say about it..



Sure.  Just keep holding on to that old archaic thought train that OTL amps cannot drive low impedance cans.  Meanwhile, I'll keep listening to my splendid 35 ohm Arya while my 300 ohm HD6XX collects dust.  

Edit:  Tube selection matters.  Pairing matters.  Maybe it just can't drive your cans.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Be careful making a statement about any headphone responding well to OTL amps on Reddit in the r/headphone sub.  I still get hateful messages for saying some headphones respond well to OTL and even more hate for bringing up the idea of gear pairing.
> The general concensus over there is 'clean power measured by robots' over tubes any day.  Freaking objectivists.


I have no problem with measurements except when they keep folks from at least trying tubes. I only build class A tube amps and have owned solid state as well but most of it bores me, measurements or not.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Sure.  Just keep holding on to that old archaic thought train that OTL amps cannot drive low impedance cans.  Meanwhile, I'll keep listening to my 45 ohm Arya while my 300 ohm HD6XX collects dust.


There are three ways that I remember to make OTL amps work well with low impedance but mine was more dumb luck.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 26, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Sure.  Just keep holding on to that old archaic thought train that OTL amps cannot drive low impedance cans.  Meanwhile, I'll keep listening to my splendid 35 ohm Arya while my 300 ohm HD6XX collects dust.
> 
> Edit:  Tube selection matters.  Pairing matters.  Maybe it just can't drive your cans.


Your gonna make me upgrade sooner than I wanted too...  Well, I didn't want to go there..but since I'm already here.. the high impedance of any said headphone draws more power of OTL amps..correct? It's the resistance thing.. My Hifiman are best on my SS amp that pushes 2 watts to each channel.. OTL amp cant do that.. not at 35ohms.. if you like the sound of that thing plugged into a smartphone..Hurrah!!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I have no problem with measurements except when they keep folks from at least trying tubes. I only build class A tube amps and have owned solid state as well but most of it bores me, measurements or not.


I have a Topping Dx7Pro and Senn HDVA 600.  Both great SS amps in their own right (Topping is a DAC, too).  
The sound is different and in my opinion better with tubes.  As a long time musician, tubes brought me a feeling that SS always lacked.  Tubes are more like little instruments to me.
That isn't to say I don't like SS, I do.  But it's just different, and I can't quite put my finger on it.  
Without a doubt though, tubes are just more interesting.  Period.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Your gonna make me upgrade sooner than I wanted too...  Well, I didn't want to go there..but since I'm already here.. the high impedance of any said headphone draws more power of OTL amps..correct? It's the resistance thing.. My Hifiman are best on my SS amp that pushes 2 watts to each channel.. OTL amp cant do that.. not at 35ohms.. if you like the sound of that thing plugged into a smartphone..Hurrah!!



Don't do it!!!   Arya are $1600 and your HE400i is what, like $200?    

Well, don't do an Arya without a try-before-you-buy at least.  After-all -- my Splendid may be your Sucks!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Don't do it!!!   Arya are $1600 and your HE400i is what, like $200?
> 
> Well, don't do it without a try-before-you-buy at least.  After-all -- my Splendid may be your Sucks!!


Copy... and I wasn't aiming that high... (holy price tags...$1600!?) I need a 2nd job...


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> I have a Topping Dx7Pro and Senn HDVA 600.  Both great SS amps in their own right (Topping is a DAC, too).
> The sound is different and in my opinion better with tubes.  As a long time musician, tubes brought me a feeling that SS always lacked.  Tubes are more like little instruments to me.
> That isn't to say I don't like SS, I do.  But it's just different, and I can't quite put my finger on it.
> Without a doubt though, tubes are just more interesting.  Period.


I have a Topping DX7 and we ran an S in some DAC blind testing and the Topping finished higher than 14 DACs costing more as I recall. That same group will be running similar tests on 6SN7 equivalents when we can meet socially again.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Copy... and I wasn't aiming that high... (holy price tags...$1600!?) I need a 2nd job...



If you can try a try a Sundara ($349), it might be worth the effort.  It was leaps and bounds over my 400S and what got me on the Hifiman upgrade insanity!!  (HE400S, Sundara, Ananda**, Arya)

A lot of good high impedance options at $1600, like ZMF.  I just prefer planars and HF always gave me a very good trade-in value when I asked about upgrading. 

** BTW -- In my experience, Ananda is too low impedance for OTL at 25 ohms, so pass on that one for your setup.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> If you can try a try a Sundara ($349), it might be worth the effort.  It was leaps and bounds over my 400S and what got me on the Hifiman upgrade insanity!!  (HE400S, Sundara, Ananda**, Arya)
> 
> A lot of good high impedance options at $1600, like ZMF.  I just prefer planars and HF always gave me a very good trade-in value when I asked about upgrading.
> 
> ** BTW -- In my experience, Ananda is too low impedance for OTL at 25 ohms, so pass on that one for your setup.


400i is great for me, wowed whenever I use it.. (did you here that!? moments are plenty with that headphone ) and I kinda jumped in the tubed amplified world with two feet, so high impedance cans it is. I feel you get optimum pairing with 300 ohm cans and OTL amps.. nothing gets wasted. So planars and OTL amps are a no no with me. ZMF is right up my alley. That headphone would match perfect with my new amp, both made out of wood.. 300 ohms..


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 26, 2020)

There are many paths to Nirvana in this hobby and all that matters is that we enjoy our gear and our music.

If I came across as dissing the 400i, it was not my intention.  It remains a very highly regarded HP - - especially in its price-point.  I was trying to communicate that your experience with Planar on your amp may be different than mine due to the difference between HE400i and Arya engineering and subsequent price delta.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> There are many paths to Nirvana in this hobby and all that matters is that we enjoy our gear and our music.
> 
> If I came across as dissing the 400i, it was not my intention.  It remains a very highly regarded HP - - especially in its price-point.  I was trying to communicate that your experience with Planar on your amp may be different than mine due to the difference between HE400i and Arya engineering and subsequent price delta.


I don't feel pretty anymore...


----------



## JKDJedi

😂😂😂 nah man...I get it... wish the Cam Jam was still going on.. would love to give em a try.


----------



## Ripper2860

I pair of ZMFs may be in my distant future.  Who knows, I may end up kicking HFM to  the curb!!  

(Blame Magneplanar for my love of Planar HPs)


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ripper2860 said:


> I pair of ZMFs may be in my distant future.  Who knows, I may end up kicking HFM to  the curb!!
> 
> (Blame Magneplanar for my love of Planar HPs)


My Maggies are my babies.  I bought the 1.7s and haven't lusted for a speaker since then.  

However, with two kids under the age of 4, headphones are really the only reasonable medium for music at decent volumes!!!  Don't wake a sleeping baby (or toddler)(or wife).

I too have my eyes on the ZMF lineup.  The Auteur and Verite are so intriguing.


----------



## sfleming

gibosi said:


> Philco didn't make their own tubes. Most were made by Sylvania. If I am reading the date code correctly, "2 U", that tube was manufactured  in the third quarter of 1942.


Excellent ! 
I thought it might be a NU but knew someone here would have the scoop/ Much appreciated


----------



## Wes S (Jul 27, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I pair of ZMFs may be in my distant future.  Who knows, I may end up kicking HFM to  the curb!!
> 
> (Blame Magneplanar for my love of Planar HPs)


That would be one of the best moves you could make in the hobby.  ZMF headphones and tubes, go together like peanut butter and jelly.  Also, ZMF headphones are built like tanks with quality materials and not that cheap chinese plastic like the other company.


----------



## JKDJedi

I'm starting to believe the Foton is the most underrated tube out there....

*FOTON 6N8S 6SN7  

*


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> I'm starting to believe the Foton is the most underrated tube out there....
> 
> *FOTON 6N8S 6SN7
> *


Oh boy!  I have a coupe pairs of those, and concur.  I also know somone that has a huge stash of those (as in double digits), and was the one to discover them back in the early days of the Lyr 3. They are a killer value no doubt, however they can be prone with issues due to bad soldering of pins, as is the case with a lot of Russian tubes.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> I'm starting to believe the Foton is the most underrated tube out there....
> 
> *FOTON 6N8S 6SN7
> *


While perusing the internets this morning I found these are quite cheap so long as you buy them from the black hole of the USSR or Ukraine.  Bought 4 NOS for $30 plus $10 shipping.  We'll see if they ever make it to the US, but I appreciate the tip on a cheap tube!


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Oh boy!  I have a coupe pairs of those, and concur.  I also know somone that has a huge stash of those (as in double digits), and was the one to discover them back in the early days of the Lyr 3. They are a killer value no doubt, however they can be prone with issues due to bad soldering of pins, as is the case with a lot of Russian tubes.


You saved me saying that about the pins. Those are the exact Fotons I tend to use in some of my amps along with Russian flying C tubes, I am the person who convinced said tube hoarder that the tubes need not burn in for 100 hours.😏


----------



## Wes S

PsilocybinCube said:


> While perusing the internets this morning I found these are quite cheap so long as you buy them from the black hole of the USSR or Ukraine.  Bought 4 NOS for $30 plus $10 shipping.  We'll see if they ever make it to the US, but I appreciate the tip on a cheap tube!


They take forever to get here, so best to purchase and forget, and then you get a nice surprise months later.


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> You saved me saying that about the pins. Those are the exact Fotons I tend to use in some of my amps along with Russian flying C tubes, I am the person who convinced said tube hoarder that the tubes need not burn in for 100 hours.😏


Nice!  The famous 100 hours, that seem like roller coaster ride, and is the magic number.


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Nice!  The famous 100 hours, that seem like roller coaster ride, and is the magic number.


Once the pins are re-soldered, the 100 hours is not needed. Bill was more convinced when he rechecked a tube or tubes that had run 100 hours and they did not measure well, he redid the solder and they were right as rain. Personally I took two identical tubes, re-soldered the pins, then ran one for 100 hours and compared it to the first. Other than a slightly lower emission on the 100 hour tube, they were identical. It made no sense to me that a tube should cook a hundred hours so I had to figure a way to convince Bill lol. I do have test equipment above and beyond a tube checker of course and I could see an immediate change after the solder was replaced, as I suspected.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> While perusing the internets this morning I found these are quite cheap so long as you buy them from the black hole of the USSR or Ukraine.  Bought 4 NOS for $30 plus $10 shipping.  We'll see if they ever make it to the US, but I appreciate the tip on a cheap tube!


The 58's can still be easily found, the early fifties with ribbed plates, not so much but occasionally they can be had. Last I heard we may still have a 1953 tube in a group of 52 tubes to be blind tested, unless a higher scoring tube bumped it out.  That would be a shame since it may well be the only $20 tube left in the group.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> Oh boy!  I have a coupe pairs of those, and concur.  I also know somone that has a huge stash of those (as in double digits), and was the one to discover them back in the early days of the Lyr 3. They are a killer value no doubt, however they can be prone with issues due to bad soldering of pins, as is the case with a lot of Russian tubes.





Paladin79 said:


> Once the pins are re-soldered, the 100 hours is not needed. Bill was more convinced when he rechecked a tube or tubes that had run 100 hours and they did not measure well, he redid the solder and they were right as rain. Personally I took two identical tubes, re-soldered the pins, then ran one for 100 hours and compared it to the first. Other than a slightly lower emission on the 100 hour tube, they were identical. It made no sense to me that a tube should cook a hundred hours so I had to figure a way to convince Bill lol. I do have test equipment above and beyond a tube checker of course and I could see an immediate change after the solder was replaced, as I suspected.


I knew who you were referring too right away... 😂😂 And for what this tube can do..100 hours is not that bad. I had one Foton that took two weeks to finally settle in. Worth the wait. Very nice tube.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I knew who you were referring too right away... 😂😂 And for what this tube can do..100 hours is not that bad. I had one Foton that took two weeks to finally settle in. Worth the wait. Very nice tube.


But the roller coaster ride is not over IMHO. After the tube gets so warm I suspect rosin starts to re-flow a bit but as the tube cools down you are still dealing with solder that did not hold up and is 60 years old or so, I replace all that old solder and do a serious cleaning and no after effects.


----------



## Ripper2860

Just like one would not rush a fine wine, one should not rush a Foton.  1/2 the fun is the anticipation!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Just like one would not rush a fine wine, one should not rush a Foton.  1/2 the fun is the anticipation!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> But the roller coaster ride is not over IMHO. After the tube gets so warm I suspect rosin starts to re-flow a bit but as the tube cools down you are still dealing with solder that did not hold up and is 60 years old or so, I replace all that old solder and do a serious cleaning and no after effects.


I might grab another pair.  And maybe ask for a favor 😉 my soldering skills are left handed blind folded. (I'm right handed).


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> While perusing the internets this morning I found these are quite cheap so long as you buy them from the black hole of the USSR or Ukraine.  Bought 4 NOS for $30 plus $10 shipping.  We'll see if they ever make it to the US, but I appreciate the tip on a cheap tube!



Just be sure to stick with the '50's manufacture. 1960 and later something changed and they just aren't the same, or even close really. The ribbed plate versions are a bit better than the non-ribbed, but the difference isn't huge (the plates changed from ribbed to smooth sometime during 1956). As @Paladin79 mentioned the '58's can still be found pretty easily and for cheap, and not worth paying a big premium for the earlier ribbed plates IMO unless you can score some for only a little more money.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I might grab another pair.  And maybe ask for a favor 😉 my soldering skills are left handed blind folded. (I'm right handed).


I never charge to re-solder those as long as the quantity is reasonable. If @bcowen backed a truck up to my house with the amount he has collected, that would be another story.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Just be sure to stick with the '50's manufacture. 1960 and later something changed and they just aren't the same, or even close really. The ribbed plate versions are a bit better than the non-ribbed, but the difference isn't huge (the plates changed from ribbed to smooth sometime during 1956). As @Paladin79 mentioned the '58's can still be found pretty easily and for cheap, and not worth paying a big premium for the earlier ribbed plates IMO unless you can score some for only a little more money.


I am having a flashback to my Lyr 3 days, with all this 50's Foton talk.  @bcowen knows his Russians.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 30, 2020)

Wes S said:


> I am having a flashback to my Lyr 3 days, with all this 50's Foton talk.  @bcowen knows his Russians.


I'd like to hear the story on how @bcowen found the Fotons..


----------



## Ripper2860

He told me he found them under the cushions of his couch.


----------



## gibosi (Jul 30, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I never charge to re-solder those as long as the quantity is reasonable. If @bcowen backed a truck up to my house with the amount he has collected, that would be another story.



Is this offer only for friends? How about the rest of us? lol 

Seriously, I have a pair of ribbed 1952 Fotons, and one is noisy even after I cleaned the pins with sandpaper. Fortunately, my Glenn OTL uses only one, but it would be nice to have a quiet backup as well.

Edit: And not only is this Foton underrated and overlooked, but to my ears, it is better than the famous and much sought-after Melz metal 1578.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Is this offer only for friends? How about the rest of us? lol
> 
> Seriously, I have a pair of ribbed 1952 Fotons, and one is noisy even after I cleaned the pins with sandpaper. Fortunately, my Glenn OTL uses only one, but it would be nice to have a quiet backup as well.
> 
> Edit: And not only is this Foton underrated and overlooked, but to my ears, it is better than the famous and much sought-after Melz metal 1578.


Whoah!!! I didn't go there... Yet. 😁 They're inexpensive and sound the opposite, just ordered a pair of the 58' (again) nowhere  near hoarder status... ☺️. Like Sir Bill... Might see them by September the way things are going.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> Is this offer only for friends? How about the rest of us? lol
> 
> Seriously, I have a pair of ribbed 1952 Fotons, and one is noisy even after I cleaned the pins with sandpaper. Fortunately, my Glenn OTL uses only one, but it would be nice to have a quiet backup as well.
> 
> Edit: And not only is this Foton underrated and overlooked, but to my ears, it is better than the famous and much sought-after Melz metal 1578.


Yikes I was going to offer to solder them till you dissed the 1578’s lol, what year or years have you tried. Seems like I heard something about a Glenn amp before but I design my own so I have little interest.

The 1578’s are prime candidates for resolder as well but the 63, that is one of the better tubes I have heard and measured and it rated extremely high with seven local audiophiles. The Fotons are great for the $20 or so dollars they go for, but they may not make the cut in our top 52 tubes.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> Yikes I was going to offer to solder them till you dissed the 1578’s lol, what year or years have you tried. Seems like I heard something about a Glenn amp before but I design my own so I have little interest.
> 
> The 1578’s are prime candidates for resolder as well but the 63, that is one of the better tubes I have heard and measured and it rated extremely high with seven local audiophiles. The Fotons are great for the $20 or so dollars they go for, but they may not make the cut in our top 52 tubes.



My 1578 is dated 1967. And yes, the 1578 typically measures extremely well, with exceptional matching between the triode sections and very low noise, compared to most 6SN7 types. However, to my ears, the mid range with the 1578 is rather flat and lifeless. Not my cup of tea. 

But again, my ears and my gear: I'm an old geezer with worn out ears, a Glenn OTL with a GEC U52 rectifier and four Tung-Sol 6BX7 output tubes, and a modded Senheizer HD700. So you probably shouldn't trust my impressions. lol


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> My 1578 is dated 1967. And yes, the 1578 typically measures extremely well, with exceptional matching between the triode sections and very low noise, compared to most 6SN7 types. However, to my ears, the mid range with the 1578 is rather flat and lifeless. Not my cup of tea.
> 
> But again, my ears and my gear: I'm an old geezer with worn out ears, a Glenn OTL with a GEC U52 rectifier and four Tung-Sol 6BX7 output tubes, and a modded Senheizer HD700. So you probably shouldn't trust my impressions. lol


67 is not a bad year and generally poor solder on the pins causes high frequency noise. Many of the 1578’s from the 70’s and 80’s have overpowering mids, 60’s are much better balanced. I do not claim to have the best ears but know plenty who do, one I would put up against even the great @bcowen. In one blind test her scoring matched the average answers of 49 other audiophiles, generally a group is more accurate than any one person.
And again I would help you with the tubes and pay shipping back. Many people here know me and know your tubes would be safe. I designed my amp to show tube differences and even donated one to Mr. Cowen, naturally I made my own prettier.😉


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> And again I would help you with the tubes and pay shipping back. Many people here know me and know your tubes would be safe.



Thank you for your very kind and generous offer.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 30, 2020)

Did your album make the list? #weekendtuberolling #on
https://www.stuff.tv/features/54-essential-albums-audiophiles


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> 67 is not a bad year and generally poor solder on the pins causes high frequency noise. Many of the 1578’s from the 70’s and 80’s have overpowering mids, 60’s are much better balanced. I do not claim to have the best ears but know plenty who do, one I would put up against even the great @bcowen. In one blind test her scoring matched the average answers of 49 other audiophiles, generally a group is more accurate than any one person.
> And again I would help you with the tubes and pay shipping back. Many people here know me and know your tubes would be safe. I designed my amp to show tube differences and even donated one to Mr. Cowen, naturally I made my own prettier.😉


I was gonna comment on that, yes the 71' (I have)  mids are somewhat forward, interesting how the 60's are more evened out, gonna have to hunt for one, not right now.. right now, but later ..later.   (Love how that amp is coming out, choice RCA connects there) Any of you guys looking for a desktop amp, look no further, the fidelity in Paladin79 units are top notch. Enjoying mine to the extreme.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Did your album make the list? #weekendtuberolling #on
> https://www.stuff.tv/features/54-essential-albums-audiophiles



1/2 of these are regular listens for me but I can't help but LOL at some of these.  Dr. Dre - The Chronic 2001.  That takes me back to being a kid.

Some of those, like the Michael Kiwanuka record, I don't think are actually that well mastered (even though I love the record).  

Some good choices on there, though.  That Animal Collective record is great if you like the weird stuff - 'Sung Tongs' remains their best record by a mile though IMO.  'A Moon Shaped Pool' is a criminally underrated Radiohead album.  Titanic Rising is a fantastic record for female vocals and her lyrics are so clever.  Burial's 'Untrue' is probably not everyone's cup of tea, but it's a very complex album and good for testing out different gear.  Thundercat's 'Drunk' is just fun and phenomenal.  And lord do I love Kind of Blue by Miles Davis...but does anyone else get bothered by the fuzz from the trumpets at the beginning of 'All Blues'?

Here's a record I just can't get enough of...and it will test your gear from the first few notes in a way that makes it a helpful record to serve as a reference of sorts (especially for bass response when swapping tubes):








2020 has been a great year for new music.  So many great new records.  Fiona Apple's new record, Summerlong by Rose City Band, Run the Jewels 4, Childish Gambino's new record '3.15.20'...the list could go on for quite some time.


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## Paladin79 (Jul 31, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I was gonna comment on that, yes the 71' (I have)  mids are somewhat forward, interesting how the 60's are more evened out, gonna have to hunt for one, not right now.. right now, but later ..later.   (Love how that amp is coming out, choice RCA connects there) Any of you guys looking for a desktop amp, look no further, the fidelity in Paladin79 units are top notch. Enjoying mine to the extreme.


Thanks but my main purpose of my design was building four identical amps for local blind testing of 6sn7 equivalents, and staying home has given me extra time but I may be slowing down on the builds after I finish a couple for friends. Working 7 days a week is starting to get a little tiring lol. I will take time to build one for employees who have worked to ship several of my amps around the country, as well as tubes I have sent out for blind listening. After I take a month off to relax, we will see, I do have a lot of very nice lumber to use at some point. Tiger maple, spalted maple, purpleheart, but rainbow poplar is my current favorite.

I should be getting a couple extra 1963 Melz soon and they are my favorite but others from the sixties have proven very nice as well. After the Marconi tube I sent you, I figured you would just say there is no better tube around and stop looking.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 31, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> 1/2 of these are regular listens for me but I can't help but LOL at some of these.  Dr. Dre - The Chronic 2001.  That takes me back to being a kid.
> 
> Some of those, like the Michael Kiwanuka record, I don't think are actually that well mastered (even though I love the record).
> 
> ...


I'm gonna listen to that All Blues track first thing this morning...didn't get that trumpet thing... Now I'll probably will.. ☺ and then I'll check out your reference album. But first...some coffee!!! ☕
Sung Tungs will be the third album, might break out the Marconi for that one.. 😂 @Paladin79 Dare I send it to Bill? No I'll keep it. Morning Melz session today. Had the Fotons yesterday so this will be great comparison for me, 63.. I think there's one out there... Oh man... 💸

Edit: @PsilocybinCube only fuzziness I got was from the snare drums.. and one of my adored albums. And I couldn't find "Sung Tungs"  you know in reverse it's Tung Sol...


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'm gonna listen to that All Blues track first thing this morning...didn't get that trumpet thing... Now I'll probably will.. ☺ and then I'll check out your reference album. But first...some coffee!!! ☕
> Sung Tungs will be the third album, might break out the Marconi for that one.. 😂 @Paladin79 Dare I send it to Bill? No I'll keep it. Morning Melz session today. Had the Fotons yesterday so this will be great comparison for me, 63.. I think there's one out there... Oh man... 💸


I would say to charge @bcowen $100 for that tube, and make him pay next day early am shipping. It seems like the right thing to do.   Just make sure you get paid first, do not accept any IOU's!!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 31, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I would say to charge @bcowen $100 for that tube, and make him pay next day early am shipping. It seems like the right thing to do.   Just make sure you get paid first, do not accept any IOU's!!!


Lol.. right..poor guys disappeared on us.. he's currently getting a nice sun tan. Bahamas? We might get a 'Wishing You Were HEre" card..  Found a mid 60's Melz for really cheap price, probably C class, either way, I grabbed it, will get here in October... LOL!! These MElz ae in another class, Fotons are in your face dynamics where the MElz push out the music in a relaxing manner..(that or this jazz track is better than I thought it was) Flamenco Sketches - Miles Davis


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> I'm gonna listen to that All Blues track first thing this morning...didn't get that trumpet thing... Now I'll probably will.. ☺ and then I'll check out your reference album. But first...some coffee!!! ☕
> Sung Tungs will be the third album, might break out the Marconi for that one.. 😂 @Paladin79 Dare I send it to Bill? No I'll keep it. Morning Melz session today. Had the Fotons yesterday so this will be great comparison for me, 63.. I think there's one out there... Oh man... 💸
> 
> Edit: @PsilocybinCube only fuzziness I got was from the snare drums.. and one of my adored albums. And I couldn't find "Sung Tungs"  you know in reverse it's Tung Sol...


Maybe I'm listening to a bad version of All Blues!!!  Also, the HD800 makes every bad bit or byte in a song sound bad.

The Animal Collective record is Sung Tongs.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> I'm gonna listen to that All Blues track first thing this morning...didn't get that trumpet thing... Now I'll probably will.. ☺ and then I'll check out your reference album. But first...some coffee!!! ☕
> Sung Tungs will be the third album, might break out the Marconi for that one.. 😂 @Paladin79 Dare I send it to Bill? No I'll keep it. Morning Melz session today. Had the Fotons yesterday so this will be great comparison for me, 63.. I think there's one out there... Oh man... 💸
> 
> Edit: @PsilocybinCube only fuzziness I got was from the snare drums.. and one of my adored albums. And I couldn't find "Sung Tungs"  you know in reverse it's Tung Sol...


I don't feel as crazy now re:  All Blues

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/miles-davis-quot-kind-of-blue-quot-drove-me-insane-almost


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 31, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> I don't feel as crazy now re:  All Blues
> 
> https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/miles-davis-quot-kind-of-blue-quot-drove-me-insane-almost


Yeah maybe, it was recorded in analog, and has the inherited analog hiss here and there. That same thread shares my thoughts exact.

" People tend to assume that Kind of Blue must have terrific sonics because the recording is so famous; however, it's the performance and the place of that performance in the history of jazz that make Kind of Blue so highly regarded". -gz3827

That recording was on a first take basis (or very few), hardly rehearsed or reedited in any way.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'd like to hear the story on how @bcowen found the Fotons..



I had to guinea pig them.  About the time I got my Lyr 3 the guys on the regular Lyr Tube Rolling thread (who were using Lyr 2's mostly with 9-pin tubes) were giving raves to the triple-mica Foton 6N3P.  I asked for opinions on the Foton 6N8S (or 6H8C depending on which alphabet you prefer) and got nothing, so I decided to buy a couple and check them out.  Didn't have a clue what was what beyond what I'd read that the '50's manufacture were best, and so ended up with a pair of '58's.  After the roller coaster break-in ride (which is another story in and of itself, but basically dealing with the pin soldering issue that @Paladin79 diagnosed), I really liked those tubes.  Period. And after considering the cost, really _really_ liked them.  Then @Phantaminum chimed in that the earlier ribbed plate versions were even better, so I ordered a quad of them...and they _were_ better. Not night and day, but at that point in time you could get the ribbed plates for about the same price as the later ones.  I think I paid $35 delivered for the first _quad _of '52's I got.  I bought some '60's versions later on just to see how they compared, and while those are OK tubes for the money, they don't compete with the '50's to my ears.  The ribbed plate versions have become quite scarce with the prices starting to get silly, so I'm glad I stocked up when I did.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I had to guinea pig them.  About the time I got my Lyr 3 the guys on the regular Lyr Tube Rolling thread (who were using Lyr 2's mostly with 9-pin tubes) were giving raves to the triple-mica Foton 6N3P.  I asked for opinions on the Foton 6N8S (or 6H8C depending on which alphabet you prefer) and got nothing, so I decided to buy a couple and check them out.  Didn't have a clue what was what beyond what I'd read that the '50's manufacture were best, and so ended up with a pair of '58's.  After the roller coaster break-in ride (which is another story in and of itself, but basically dealing with the pin soldering issue that @Paladin79 diagnosed), I really liked those tubes.  Period. And after considering the cost, really _really_ liked them.  Then @Phantaminum chimed in that the earlier ribbed plate versions were even better, so I ordered a quad of them...and they _were_ better. Not night and day, but at that point in time you could get the ribbed plates for about the same price as the later ones.  I think I paid $35 delivered for the first _quad _of '52's I got.  I bought some '60's versions later on just to see how they compared, and while those are OK tubes for the money, they don't compete with the '50's to my ears.  The ribbed plate versions have become quite scarce with the prices starting to get silly, so I'm glad I stocked up when I did.


Wow that actually made sense, and Bill gave credit where credit was do. Heck he was even sounding humble. You all right Bill?


----------



## Ripper2860

Sun poisoning.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Sun poisoning.


Maybe he doubled his dosage of  Hydroxychloroquine


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 31, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Sun poisoning.


Vitamin D is good for you.  I'd be outside right now if it wasn't 121 degrees outside..


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> After the Marconi tube I sent you, I figured you would just say there is no better tube around and stop looking.



LOL!  And it's only a matter of time before pigs begin to fly too.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Sun poisoning.



Alcohol ingestion.  The two seem to occur together frequently.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  And it's only a matter of time before pigs begin to fly too.


Didn’t Pink Floyd prove that possible?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Didn’t Pink Floyd prove that possible?


Got up 4am to do some riding, got thirsty and pounded a few beers, bowl of menudo and half a crossaint breakfast sandwich, waved to Tom Flores (Ex Raider Coach) ....now either I'll pass out, or sit down to some pink pigs in the sky music 😂 #pinkfloyd


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Didn’t Pink Floyd prove that possible?



Possibly.  I don't ever remember listening to Pink Floyd without some type of recreational pharmaceutical involved which typically have a negative effect on memory retention.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Got up 4am to do some riding, got thirsty and pounded a few beers, bowl of menudo and half a crossaint breakfast sandwich, waved to Tom Flores (Ex Raider Coach) ....now either I'll pass out, or sit down to some pink pigs in the sky music 😂 #pinkfloyd


No wonder my amp is sounding so good to you, it is your lifestyle😉


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No wonder my amp is sounding so good to you, it is your lifestyle😉



Yeah.  First the 4 AM thing...not gonna happen.  Then the exercise thing.  Definitely not gonna happen.  I have no idea what menudo is, but it sounds kinda healthy so rule that out too.  But count me in on the beer part, assuming it's at least after 6 AM.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 2, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yeah.  First the 4 AM thing...not gonna happen.  Then the exercise thing.  Definitely not gonna happen.  I have no idea what menudo is, but it sounds kinda healthy so rule that out too.  But count me in on the beer part, assuming it's at least after 6 AM.


😂😂 Menudo is the lining of a cows stomach, sliced into cubes and boiled in a stew of california red chili and garlic, some put the hoof of a cows foot for flavor... Delicious


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂 Menudo is the lining of a cows stomach, sliced into cubes and boiled in a stew of california red chili and garlic, some put the hoof of a cows foot for flavor... Delicious



Oh.  So not _necessarily_ healthy then.  I'd probably love it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 2, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Oh.  So not _necessarily_ healthy then.  I'd probably love it.


Yes! 😂, it'll drive your cholesterol up big time.. so only on occasion as a diet. Maybe once or twice a month. Excellent for the hangover. So I'm giving that RCA VT-231 a shot, have a pair that sound just ok, probably 60's. Hoping a 1945 will sound better.


----------



## adydula

Ordered off of Ebay 2 Russian 1958 NOS 6SN7 equiv's..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...78&brand=Foton&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507

Ordered back in March....months go by...nada....contacted seller said Russian post was the issue.....another month and the seller refunded funds....

Guess what showed up yesterday, 5 months later!!!???!!!
Yup....they arrived!!

:>)


----------



## JKDJedi

adydula said:


> Ordered off of Ebay 2 Russian 1958 NOS 6SN7 equiv's..
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-FOTON-SILVER-GRID-1958-YEAR-NOS-Lot-of-2-pcs/153749645882?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=225074&meid=e50d5c9368284b39a2a84aedfbab8f9b&pid=100290&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=153749645882&itm=153749645882&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2060778&brand=Foton&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507
> 
> ...


Wow... I just ordered from them a couple of days ago...have a pair from last year, sound great after a long burn in. So maybe in January for these next pair? 😂


----------



## adydula (Aug 2, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Wow... I just ordered from them a couple of days ago...have a pair from last year, sound great after a long burn in. So maybe in January for these next pair? 😂


Maybe not....it looks like he is shipping from the "Nederlands" to get around this Russian post thing.....

Funny I just looked at his post and the ship from "Nederlands" is gone?? Maybe back to order and just wait...

Tubes work well and its a decent price for sure..


----------



## DenverW

adydula said:


> Ordered off of Ebay 2 Russian 1958 NOS 6SN7 equiv's..
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-FOTON-SILVER-GRID-1958-YEAR-NOS-Lot-of-2-pcs/153749645882?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=225074&meid=e50d5c9368284b39a2a84aedfbab8f9b&pid=100290&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=153749645882&itm=153749645882&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2060778&brand=Foton&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507
> 
> ...




I ordered some kzk white line capacitors for my bottlehead crack in march.  Shipped through russia post...arrived a couple days ago, end of July.  About three months turn around time.  If you're getting something from russia beware russia post right now, its CRAZY slow.  They're sending things via boat.  Apparently row boats.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> I ordered some kzk white line capacitors for my bottlehead crack in march.  Shipped through russia post...arrived a couple days ago, end of July.  About three months turn around time.  If you're getting something from russia beware russia post right now, its CRAZY slow.  They're sending things via boat.  Apparently row boats.


A Russian friend told me they are re-routing most everything through Moscow, I had a package hit Chicago and a week later it is still there lol, I paid dearly to get it out of Russia quickly only to have USPS in Chicago drag their feet.

Are you talking 100 ufd output caps for the Crack? I built a few of those in my day before I designed my own OTL and added quality caps and wire throughout, I am partial to the oil filled Mundorf silver/gold caps.


----------



## DenverW

Paladin79 said:


> A Russian friend told me they are re-routing most everything through Moscow, I had a package hit Chicago and a week later it is still there lol, I paid dearly to get it out of Russia quickly only to have USPS in Chicago drag their feet.
> 
> Are you talking 100 ufd output caps for the Crack? I built a few of those in my day before I designed my own OTL and added quality caps and wire throughout, I am partial to the oil filled Mundorf silver/gold caps.



Yep, 100uf to replace the output caps.  They're not as big as mundorfs so should fit nicely when I get the will to solder them in.  The previous kzk line reviewed pretty well, so I am thinking these white line should be pretty good.

Oh, and they were only about $20 a piece, so thats helpful too.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> Yep, 100uf to replace the output caps.  They're not as big as mundorfs so should fit nicely when I get the will to solder them in.  The previous kzk line reviewed pretty well, so I am thinking these white line should be pretty good.
> 
> Oh, and they were only about $20 a piece, so thats helpful too.


Yeah I always built my own cabinets to allow for plenty of room for upgrades. I also never stuck to their top plate design.


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> I ordered some kzk white line capacitors for my bottlehead crack in march.  Shipped through russia post...arrived a couple days ago, end of July.  About three months turn around time.  If you're getting something from russia beware russia post right now, its CRAZY slow.  They're sending things via boat.  Apparently row boats.



Yup.  Seems everything from Russia is moving via boat right now. A row boat might even be an upgrade -- I think they're currently using an inflatable dingy.   I received an order the week before last that was shipped at the end of March. Another arrived last week...it shipped at the beginning of April. Prior to Covid, 2.5 - 3 weeks was pretty normal (even had one package that was ordered on one Saturday evening arrive the following Saturday). Hopefully things will improve when the world gets back to normal, whatever the _new_ normal ends up looking like.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yup.  Seems everything from Russia is moving via boat right now. A row boat might even be an upgrade -- I think they're currently using an inflatable dingy.   I received an order the week before last that was shipped at the end of March. Another arrived last week...it shipped at the beginning of April. Prior to Covid, 2.5 - 3 weeks was pretty normal (even had one package that was ordered on one Saturday evening arrive the following Saturday). Hopefully things will improve when the world gets back to normal, whatever the _new_ normal ends up looking like.


As long as you do not have a major event like a convention heading your way you should be fine.  I am in a college town and one day we will have an influx of those young folks hanging out in bars, coming back from beaches, nothing to worry about whatsoever.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Wow... I just ordered from them a couple of days ago...have a pair from last year, sound great after a long burn in. So maybe in January for these next pair? 😂



No need to be in a hurry -- the pair you have now may last longer than you.   Seriously, other than the pin solder issue I've found the Fotons to be extremely quiet and reliable. Haven't run into a single issue with microphonics and they have a very quiet background noise level. Some need the pins resoldered to achieve that, but many don't. I have one of the original '52's I bought that has probably over 2k hours on it. I tested it when I got the Incubus just to make sure it still measured well, and the GM hadn't budged from the original values. Old Hickok testers like mine are not laboratory-grade machines by any measure and can vary some even from one day to another.  But that variance is pretty minor so even considering that the Foton had lost very little (if any) emission output after all those hours.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Yup.  Seems everything from Russia is moving via boat right now. A row boat might even be an upgrade -- I think they're currently using an inflatable dingy.   I received an order the week before last that was shipped at the end of March. Another arrived last week...it shipped at the beginning of April. Prior to Covid, 2.5 - 3 weeks was pretty normal (even had one package that was ordered on one Saturday evening arrive the following Saturday). Hopefully things will improve when the world gets back to normal, whatever the _new_ normal ends up looking like.



Apparently there are very few international flights these days. My birthday was last month and a friend living in Japan told me that when she went to the post office to mail a birthday card to me, they told her there was no air mail. It would go by boat.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> Apparently there are very few international flights these days. My birthday was last month and a friend living in Japan told me that when she went to the post office to mail a birthday card to me, they told her there was no air mail. It would go by boat.


That is bound to be a factor. My son has a friend from Japan helping him tile his downstairs and the guy may be stuck here for a bit. Of course this could be taking a while since they redid the bar first and had to test it to make sure all was working.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> That is bound to be a factor. My son has a friend from Japan helping him tile his downstairs and the guy may be stuck here for a bit. Of course this could be taking a while since they redid the bar first and had to test it to make sure all was working.


Nice bar.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That is bound to be a factor. My son has a friend from Japan helping him tile his downstairs and the guy may be stuck here for a bit. Of course this could be taking a while since they redid the bar first and had to test it to make sure all was working.



LOL!  Proper break-in of a bar takes months, so perhaps it's a good thing he's here for a while. Maybe your son should spring for one more bar stool though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Proper break-in of a bar takes months, so perhaps it's a good thing he's here for a while. Maybe your son should spring for one more bar stool though.


Lol knowing my son he bought plenty but they are laying tile so less things to move


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Nice bar.


Not bad for watching YouTube videos. His buddy has a PHD in computer science yet has some carpentry skills apparently.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Got up 4am to do some riding, got thirsty and pounded a few beers, bowl of menudo and half a crossaint breakfast sandwich, waved to Tom Flores (Ex Raider Coach) ....now either I'll pass out, or sit down to some pink pigs in the sky music 😂 #pinkfloyd


I was on the trail at 6am on my Ibis Ripley doing a KOM attempt on an 8 1/2 minute downhill that is most popular in my town.  Currently, I'm in 2nd place by 3 seconds.  I would be 1st had I been willing to run over a 3 year old girl on the trail last week.  I have a daughter myself so I used self control and did not run her over.

Today I was feeling frisky and listening to Illiterate Light while riding and was well on track to hit that KOM time when I went hard around a berm and almost smacked head first into the surgeon who fixed my daughter's hip dysplasia (the surgeon was followed by about 10 other docs, 5 of whom are my clients).

Then I get home and see that one of my favorite Head-Fi folks is a mtb'er, too.  Keep riding, homie.  @JKDJedi 

If you don't ride a MTB or use Strava none of this makes sense...so sorry about that.

Also, I lost an ebay auction for a Ken-Rad black glass tonight.  I still don't own that tube.  Feeling sorry for myself.

Time to go listen to the re-foamed speakers on my Advent Heritage speakers that I am rehabilitating.

I will be back on my BHC with my clear glass 6sn7 tomorrow morning at 5am CST as I await the market open and plan the trades for the coming week. 

Last of all - James Blake - 'I'll Come Too' and 'Power On' are great tracks to demo new tubes.  Big range of sounds and good bass to test the tubes.  Currently listening to a Ken-Rad clear glass and Chatham 6080 on my HD 800.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I was on the trail at 6am on my Ibis Ripley doing a KOM attempt on an 8 1/2 minute downhill that is most popular in my town.  Currently, I'm in 2nd place by 3 seconds.  I would be 1st had I been willing to run over a 3 year old girl on the trail last week.  I have a daughter myself so I used self control and did not run her over.
> 
> Today I was feeling frisky and listening to Illiterate Light while riding and was well on track to hit that KOM time when I went hard around a berm and almost smacked head first into the surgeon who fixed my daughter's hip dysplasia (the surgeon was followed by about 10 other docs, 5 of whom are my clients).
> 
> ...


You'll find one (KenRad), worth the hunt, and if it's not on Strava....it didn't happen! 😉 (Thanks for the kind words)


----------



## Paladin79

Ok I am listening to a 1954 Foton in a couple amps I just built and damn, they are sounding much better to me right now. It may be their exceptionally good balance or the fact the amps are getting a bit of burn in time. Mids sound better than a few other tubes I tried.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I am listening to a 1954 Foton in a couple amps I just built and damn, they are sounding much better to me right now. It may be their exceptionally good balance or the fact the amps are getting a bit of burn in time. Mids sound better than a few other tubes I tried.


Hey @Paladin79 you've referenced resoldering the Foton.  So, I'm curious, how does one resolder those pins?  Is there a good link to instructions on this?  Or a helpful pic you could post?  When I searched the internet for it, I couldn't find instructions for removing and resoldering the pins of an octal tube.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 3, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey @Paladin79 you've referenced resoldering the Foton.  So, I'm curious, how does one resolder those pins?  Is there a good link to instructions on this?  Or a helpful pic you could post?  When I searched the internet for it, I couldn't find instructions for removing and resoldering the pins of an octal tube.


I will provide you with some photos when time allows. I had heard of people re-flowing solder but replacing it is probably just my idea. I do not like leaving old solder that failed inside the pins. I removed the old solder with a Soldapullt.

https://www.all-spec.com/Product/DS...LgTpFwGkXCfud1H56TX-wKQChb-crtl0aAsfUEALw_wcB

Do not buy cheap lookalikes out of China!

I then use a sharp pick to place liquid rosin (flux) inside each pin, this will increase the cleaning process. I then re-solder using Kester 2 % silver solder that is .020 diameter. I keep my soldering iron on the outside edge of the pins to make clean up easier. After soldering I use a brass brush and tape head cleaner (no residue) to clean the pins.

Tube should be kept fairly parallel so you do not over fill, it is tilted up here to accept the flux and to show the process better.

The solder has flux in the center but I prefer extra cleaning. If any of this does not make sense I can look for more photos, just a drop of the liquid rosin flux (Kester again) is plenty.

Small diameter solder will go inside the pins better, otherwise you can have a lot or cleanup on the outside of the pins. The Kester solder is now repackaged by NTE.

Oh I also use a Panavise and a fume extractor when dealing with the head cleaner. Early on I would use a heat sink on each pin but found that was not necessary, but then I have done my share of soldering in the past.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Proper break-in of a bar takes months, so perhaps it's a good thing he's here for a while. Maybe your son should spring for one more bar stool though.


Why a second stool? One is serving, one is being served. Then they change places.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I will provide you with some photos when time allows. I had heard of people re-flowing solder but replacing it is probably just my idea. I do not like leaving old solder that failed inside the pins. I removed the old solder with a Soldapullt.
> 
> https://www.all-spec.com/Product/DS...LgTpFwGkXCfud1H56TX-wKQChb-crtl0aAsfUEALw_wcB
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed explanation.  This process is a bit different than I was expecting, but it all makes sense.  I'm definitely going to need to practice on some of lower testing 6SN7 tubes to get a feel for this.  I ordered 4 of the foton tubes, so perhaps once I get a feel for it I can make an improvement to those.  I will definitely destroy a few tubes as I practice this...oh well.

Is the panavise the model 308?  Or a different model?


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 4, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation.  This process is a bit different than I was expecting, but it all makes sense.  I'm definitely going to need to practice on some of lower testing 6SN7 tubes to get a feel for this.  I ordered 4 of the foton tubes, so perhaps once I get a feel for it I can make an improvement to those.  I will definitely destroy a few tubes as I practice this...oh well.
> 
> Is the panavise the model 308?  Or a different model?


https://www.adafruit.com/product/24...fzfh1njEsFJ19jyT5J9KaviOu8HrI8yBoClo8QAvD_BwE

This is the model I use complete with metal base,  you can get attachments for holding PC boards, a soldering iron, solder, and even wires. If you do not have enough dud tubes, go on Etsy, there are generally people on there selling them by the pound. I used such tubes for making headphone stands and got many working tubes lol. I then told him I liked the looks of black glass tubes better so I got a box of those including some more working tubes that are pretty pricey.

Oh and I generally reverse the jaws in that model panavise so I can hold tiny things, as it is set up the jaws will never close to more than an inch or so. Be sure and shop around.

https://usaknifemaker.com/350-model-panavise-multi-purpose-work-center.html


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Why a second stool? One is serving, one is being served. Then they change places.


You tell him ODD lol.


----------



## DenverW

Found this on eBay.  Pictures look like a legitimate ‘bad boy’ three hole bottom getter sylvania.  I’ve ordered once from this seller and the tube was fine.  $50 is a good price for these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Vinta...637869?hash=item2aeeb79fed:g:gAUAAOSw8Z9fLcTb


----------



## cddc (Aug 15, 2020)

DenverW said:


> Found this on eBay.  Pictures look like a legitimate ‘bad boy’ three hole bottom getter sylvania.  I’ve ordered once from this seller and the tube was fine.  $50 is a good price for these.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Vinta...637869?hash=item2aeeb79fed:g:gAUAAOSw8Z9fLcTb




I've noticed this seller for long time. He's got several accounts to sell tubes - *greengirl613*, *thegeminigirl*, *fng2u, oceanview_hi*...just name a few, and some of his accounts have negative reviews saying "selling used beat-up tubes as new NOS tubes". This seller is definitely NOT on my trusted seller list.

Most of his tubes are overpriced, this Bad Boy you pointed out is one of the few correctly priced ones, and it still depends on whether the test value is a make-up or real reading from his tester.

Caveat Emptor - Buyers Beware


----------



## Wes S

cddc said:


> I've noticed this seller for long time. He's got several accounts to sell tubes - *greengirl613*, *thegeminigirl*, *fng2u*...just name a few, and some of his accounts have negative reviews saying "selling used beat-up tubes as new NOS tubes". This seller is definitely NOT on my trusted seller list.
> 
> Most of his tubes are overpriced, this Bad Boy you pointed out is one of the few correctly priced ones, and it still depends on whether the test value is a make-up or real reading from his tester.
> 
> Caveat Emptor - Buyers Beware


Yes sir.  I have seen several statements about false test results from the seller.  If you have a tester you are ok, as they have a decent return policy.


----------



## cddc

Wes S said:


> Yes sir.  I have seen several statements about false test results from the seller.  If you have a tester you are ok, as they have a decent return policy.




One confirmed case is enough for me to exclude the seller from my trusted seller list. I won't take the risk at all.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 11, 2020)

cddc said:


> One confirmed case is enough for me to exclude the seller from my trusted seller list. I won't take the risk at all.


That's smart, and I am in the same boat, as I don't have a tester.


----------



## Bullpride (Aug 13, 2020)

New to the thread and new to tube rolling really.

ZMF Atticus, RME ADI-2, Bottlhead Crack, Deyan adapter on the way.  Stock power tube as well as a Tung-Sol 6080.

The RME is certainly neutral and has taken a little of the musicality and warmth away that I enjoy.  

What am I looking for in a  6SN7  and where do I find it?


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 13, 2020)

Bullpride said:


> New to the thread and new to tube rolling really.
> 
> ZMF Atticus, RME ADI-2, Bottlhead Crack, Deyan adapter on the way.  Stock power tube as well as a Tung-Sol 6080.
> 
> ...


That is a bit like walking into a supermarket and asking for food, there are plenty of well loved 6sn7's and equivalents out there. Ebay can be a good place to look, personally I would start out with some grey glass RCA, black glass Ken-Rad VT-231's and even Sylvania VT-231's then you can always get into Russian tubes, Melz and Foton. There are plenty of those around as NOS but much of this depends on your budget.

If it is any consolation, that RME ADI-2 finished in the top five in a blind dac test my local audiophile group did, The other four dacs were double and quadruple the price and it finished higher than 15 other dacs tested. With proper modifications the Crack can sound pretty good and ZMF is certainly beloved in the headphone industry. Personally I had to design my own amp to get more tube sound and I did some semi serious mods to the Crack trying to achieve it lol.

My current favorites are Tung Sol 5998 power tubes along with 1963 Melz 1578's, that combo can run around $300 but some of the Foton 6sn7 equivalents from the fifties are quite nice for $20-$25. The 1958 seems to be the most readily available and once the pins are re-soldered It can be a very well balanced tube with very good bass.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Bullpride said:


> New to the thread and new to tube rolling really.
> 
> ZMF Atticus, RME ADI-2, Bottlhead Crack, Deyan adapter on the way.  Stock power tube as well as a Tung-Sol 6080.
> 
> ...


As I mentioned on the BHC thread, the Westinghouse Reliatron is a good cheap tube.  Sylvania tubes are abundant and can be had for cheap (I've bought a couple of lots and found some gems there).  The black glass national union and Ken Rad are great.  There is an eBay seller (ibismachine) out of NC that I have purchased some lots of 5-6 6sn7 tubes from and usually 2 or 3 of them are great and the lot might have cost $50-$70.  
Also, in regard to the Deyan adapter and the tube...I have found that I need to let the tube warm longer than the 12au7 before listening.  Sometimes if I listen shortly after turning on my BHC I don't get the best sound.  I don't know if that is a deficiency of my specific amp or a function of using the 6sn7 on the BHC, but I give it a few more minutes than the 12au7 before listening.


----------



## gibosi

Bullpride said:


> New to the thread and new to tube rolling really.
> 
> ZMF Atticus, RME ADI-2, Bottlhead Crack, Deyan adapter on the way.  Stock power tube as well as a Tung-Sol 6080.
> 
> ...



There are many very good 6SN7, as others have posted, but everyone has different ears and different gear. So I suggest you check out the following to help you figure which ones you would like to try:

The Reference 6SN7 Thread

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

The 6SN7 Identification Guide

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## Wes S (Aug 14, 2020)

Hi fellow tube addicts!  So, I took the day of from work and decided to do a mini shootout with my TOTL 6SN7's.  Here is today's lineup for a 6SN7 tube rolling adventure, with my BHC.





I am gonna see if one of these above, can beat the synergy I have going on right now with this below.




This is gonna be a fun day!

Happy Rolling my fellow 6SN7 addicts.


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Hi fellow tube addicts!  So, I took the day of from work and decided to do a mini shootout with my TOTL 6SN7's.  Here is today's lineup for a 6SN7 tube rolling adventure, with my BHC.
> 
> 
> I am gonna see if one of these above, can beat the synergy I have going on right now with this below.
> ...


A very nice selection of tubes. You should have someone swap tubes for you without your seeing them, assign numbers to them, and have you rate them blind. Maybe with a cardboard box over them as you listen. This can eliminate you rating a tube high because of brand or cost and it can be a fun exercise. There are some nice Chesky recordings that are free that will let you evaluate seven or eight criteria as I recall. My group uses 25 but it is a long process lol. Holes in the top of the cardboard box are not a bad idea.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 14, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Hi fellow tube addicts!  So, I took the day of from work and decided to do a mini shootout with my TOTL 6SN7's.  Here is today's lineup for a 6SN7 tube rolling adventure, with my BHC.
> 
> 
> I am gonna see if one of these above, can beat the synergy I have going on right now with this below.
> ...



You took a whole day off from work just to listen to tubes?!?

You're my new hero.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> You took a whole day off from work just to listen to tubes?!?
> 
> You're my new hero.


Yes sir!  This was not the first time either.  It is becoming a once or twice a month thing, and is a blast.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 15, 2020)

So after yesterday's tube rolling adventures, I ended up keeping this combo in, and I am listening with it as I type this.





This is the first version KenRad 6SN7GT Black Glass from 43' with the metal tabs holding the top mica, and sounds incredible in my BHC and my ZMF Aelous hooked up.  The bass is awesome, and the depth and detail in the mids is killer.  This tube definitely is a bass monster, but where it also shines is at low level detail and speed in the mids, and depth of soundstage.  The KenRad sounds like the Sylvania W Metal Base and Tung Sol BGRP had a baby, and the Kenrad got the best traits of both parents.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 15, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> A very nice selection of tubes. You should have someone swap tubes for you without your seeing them, assign numbers to them, and have you rate them blind. Maybe with a cardboard box over them as you listen. This can eliminate you rating a tube high because of brand or cost and it can be a fun exercise. There are some nice Chesky recordings that are free that will let you evaluate seven or eight criteria as I recall. My group uses 25 but it is a long process lol. Holes in the top of the cardboard box are not a bad idea.


Thanks for the info!  However, I am not worried about what others think about my tube ratings, and did this for enjoyment and thought I would share my findings.  I don't have any biases, and bought most of these tubes years ago, and don't even remember what I paid for them.  Also, I can here the differences just fine with my Gungnir Multibit as a DAC and ZMF Aelous as headphones.   However, I am always impressed with your blind test and all that you put into them.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> So after yesterday's tube rolling adventures, I ended up keeping this combo in, and I am listening with it as I type this.
> 
> 
> This is the first version KenRad 6SN7GT Black Glass from 43' with the metal tabs holding the top mica, and sounds incredible in my BHC and my ZMF Aelous hooked up.  The bass is awesome, and the depth and detail in the mids is killer.  This tube definitely is a bass monster, but where it also shines is at low level detail and speed in the mids, and depth of soundstage.  The KenRad sounds like the Sylvania W Metal Base and Tung Sol BGRP had a baby, and the Kenrad got the best traits of both parents.



Your 6SN7W has a Navy mil stamp on it too. Is this intentional discrimination against the Army, or just coincidental?


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Thanks for the info!  However, I am not worried about what others think about my tube ratings, and did this for enjoyment and thought I would share my findings.  I don't have any biases, and bought most of these tubes years ago, and don't even remember what I paid for them.  Also, I can here the differences just fine with my Gungnir Multibit as a DAC and ZMF Aelous as headphones.   However, I am always impressed with your blind test and all that you put into them.


I rarely offer personal tube ratings so it is never a worry for me, and my group may or may not even release results. We just came up with a system that allows people to understand the nuances as they compare different tubes and eliminate anticipation bias but it is not for everyone. With this system most folks can hear ten tubes blind, rate them and  then go back and pick the same ten tubes often times in the same order. Now whether they can do that with 52 quality tubes is yet to be shown, but by using a point system it makes averaging the groups picks much easier.  There is also the pure joy of listening and I certainly respect that. I own and have built several BH Cracks and the one I kept is highly modified and my employees have one that they have compared to my amp so I have a pretty good idea how they stack up. I use a Gungnir, and a Bifrost 2 and a few other DACs and right now I tend to use Focal Utopias with the newest version of my amp. I got to a point where the headphones were the limiting factor in my system and that is no longer the case.
 I only mentioned blind listening because people are often surprised what they might choose as a favorite tube when they rule out price and reputation. If someone handed me a 52 Foton and asked me to compare it to a Marconi Osram B65, or a couple one of a kind tubes in our test I am not so sure I could be fair in my assessment of the Foton.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Your 6SN7W has a Navy mil stamp on it too. Is this intentional discrimination against the Army, or just coincidental?


LOL!  My grandfather was a pilot in the Navy, so maybe I do have some bias.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> LOL!  My grandfather was a pilot in the Navy, so maybe I do have some bias.



  My Dad was in the Marines (and a tube-swapping radio repairman in Korea), but I've never seen a Marine Corps mil spec. LOL!


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> I rarely offer personal tube ratings so it is never a worry for me, and my group may or may not even release results. We just came up with a system that allows people to understand the nuances as they compare different tubes and eliminate anticipation bias but it is not for everyone. With this system most folks can hear ten tubes blind, rate them and  then go back and pick the same ten tubes often times in the same order. Now whether they can do that with 52 quality tubes is yet to be shown, but by using a point system it makes averaging the groups picks much easier.  There is also the pure joy of listening and I certainly respect that. I own and have built several BH Cracks and the one I kept is highly modified and my employees have one that they have compared to my amp so I have a pretty good idea how they stack up. I use a Gungnir, and a Bifrost 2 and a few other DACs and right now I tend to use Focal Utopias with the newest version of my amp. I got to a point where the headphones were the limiting factor in my system and that is no longer the case.
> I only mentioned blind listening because people are often surprised what they might choose as a favorite tube when they rule out price and reputation. If someone handed me a 52 Foton and asked me to compare it to a Marconi Osram B65, or a couple one of a kind tubes in our test I am not so sure I could be fair in my assessment of the Foton.


Well, there is always someone that does it better, and looks like I am not that guy, so @Paladin79  this thread is all yours.   I am gonna just enjoy my tubes with my ears, and if anyone ask me about 6SN7, I will send them your way.  Seems to be a pattern going on, and I can take the hint.


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Well, there is always someone that does it better, and looks like I am not that guy, so @Paladin79  this thread is all yours.   I am gonna just enjoy my tubes with my ears, and if anyone ask me about 6SN7, I will send them your way.  Seems to be a pattern going on, and I can take the hint.


No thanks, I am not telling you what to do by any means. Enjoy


----------



## dazKewl

Wes S said:


> So after yesterday's tube rolling adventures, I ended up keeping this combo in, and I am listening with it as I type this.
> 
> 
> This is the first version KenRad 6SN7GT Black Glass from 43' with the metal tabs holding the top mica, and sounds incredible in my BHC and my ZMF Aelous hooked up.  The bass is awesome, and the depth and detail in the mids is killer.  This tube definitely is a bass monster, but where it also shines is at low level detail and speed in the mids, and depth of soundstage.  The KenRad sounds like the Sylvania W Metal Base and Tung Sol BGRP had a baby, and the Kenrad got the best traits of both parents.



Pardon my ignorance please, but what's the power tube you're using in this combo?


----------



## Ranger Ron

Wes S said:


> So after yesterday's tube rolling adventures, I ended up keeping this combo in, and I am listening with it as I type this.
> 
> 
> This is the first version KenRad 6SN7GT Black Glass from 43' with the metal tabs holding the top mica, and sounds incredible in my BHC and my ZMF Aelous hooked up.  The bass is awesome, and the depth and detail in the mids is killer.  This tube definitely is a bass monster, but where it also shines is at low level detail and speed in the mids, and depth of soundstage.  The KenRad sounds like the Sylvania W Metal Base and Tung Sol BGRP had a baby, and the Kenrad got the best traits of both parents.


I must admit Wes I have been waiting/looking for your postings from your tube roll night. I have a number of the tubes in your picture and would love to hear anything you decide to write about. Great post about the 43 KenRad. Sounds glorious


----------



## Ripper2860

@Wes S -- 

I'm jealous that you are able to pull yourself off from work to do such things.  Good for you!!  

I do have a request, if you would be so kind.  Can you get a good shot or two of the KR top mica?  I'd like to compare it to  a couple of 'black glass' KRs I have to see if they have the metal tabs.  I clear shot of the tabs would be most helpful.

Keep on rollng on!!


----------



## gibosi

dazKewl said:


> Pardon my ignorance please, but what's the power tube you're using in this combo?



He's using a Bendix 6080WB with slotted graphite plates.


----------



## gibosi (Aug 15, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> @Wes S --
> 
> I'm jealous that you are able to pull yourself off from work to do such things.  Good for you!!
> 
> ...



In this eBay listing of two Kenrad 6SN7, the second to last picture shows the top mica spacers. Notice that the tube on the right has what look a little like two wing nuts, top and bottom. I'm not sure of their purpose, but I'm tempted to think they might be heat radiators connected to the plates, or maybe they are spring tensioners of some kind...

Anyway I think these are what @Wes S is referring to

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-US...-Rad-Premium-Military-6SN7-Bogey/402345485546


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> Hi fellow tube addicts!  So, I took the day of from work and decided to do a mini shootout with my TOTL 6SN7's.  Here is today's lineup for a 6SN7 tube rolling adventure, with my BHC.
> 
> 
> I am gonna see if one of these above, can beat the synergy I have going on right now with this below.
> ...


How did the CV1988 rate between everybody?


----------



## dazKewl

Could you please help me identify this tube? I'm fairly confident it's a 6NS7 variety. Thank you!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Looks similar to an Rca 6sn7 I own.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Most likely 6SN7GTB


----------



## maxemil

Great thread. I have read from page 1 until today and have found extremely helpful info here. Thank you guys for sharing your vast experience!!

My (pure analog) system entails a LM 508ia on witch I have rolled tubes for about 6 months now focussing on the "preamp" stage thus far. On the 6SN7 slots I started with the installed Electro-Harmonix 6SN7EH to go to NOS Fotons 6n8s from the 60s, new TJ Full Music 6SN7, NOS Melz 6n8s from 1955 and yesterday I have received my first NOS Sylvanias 6SN7 GTAs. 

And here is my question to the Sylvanias' production year coding: they came in the original boxes. They have the chrome domes covering about half of the glass tube. They have the codes of 326 and 348 vertically imprinted in green on the bases. I would assume the codes identify the dates of the 26th and 48th week of 195*3*. However, as I have learned here Sylvania started manufacturing the GTAs in 195*4. *Could anyone enlighten me how to make sense of this?

Thank you very much for any assistance. I am looking forward to many fruitful discussions here, particularly since I am just at the beginning of my fun journey on my path to tube rolling nirvana.


----------



## cddc (Aug 28, 2020)

maxemil said:


> Great thread. I have read from page 1 until today and have found extremely helpful info here. Thank you guys for sharing your vast experience!!
> 
> My (pure analog) system entails a LM 508ia on witch I have rolled tubes for about 6 months now focussing on the "preamp" stage thus far. On the 6SN7 slots I started with the installed Electro-Harmonix 6SN7EH to go to NOS Fotons 6n8s from the 60s, new TJ Full Music 6SN7, NOS Melz 6n8s from 1955 and yesterday I have received my first NOS Sylvanias 6SN7 GTAs.
> 
> ...



GTA showed up around 1953, if I remember correctly, so the date codes should be okay.

1953 or 1954 won't make any difference if it is etched as GTA.


----------



## maxemil

cddc said:


> GTA showed up around 1953, if I remember correctly, so the date codes should be okay.
> 
> 1953 or 1953 won't make any difference if it is etched as GTA.


Thanks cddc.


----------



## Ranger Ron

maxemil said:


> Thanks cddc.


----------



## Ranger Ron

maxemil said:


> Thanks cddc.


Sorry double post. You will also find two different plate structures around that time. Plates that are angled to each other and plates that are opposing. To my ears they sound quite different. Enjoy the rolling!


----------



## cddc

Agree, years doesn't really matter, it's the internal structure that matters.


----------



## Dave01236

Does anyone who owns, or used to own the Melz 1578  has ever heard the tung sol black round plate, and/or the sylvania metal base 6sn7w? I currently have the melz 1578 from 1963, they are great sounding. The TSRP and the sylvania 6sn7w were always appealing tubes to me but they are very expensive. Are they better though, it is what I am wondering. Or they are just different tubes that give a different sound.


----------



## gibosi

I would not say they are better because they are so different. It all comes down to synergy with the other components in your system, especially headphones and the other tubes, for example, rectifier and output tubes. All three of these 6SN7 are wonderful in the right system. None of them are the best in every system.

My advice is to be patient, enjoy your 1578, and wait for good deals on the others. And then be prepared to spend some time swapping the other components to find the best match for your ears.


----------



## Dave01236

gibosi said:


> I would not say they are better because they are so different. It all comes down to synergy with the other components in your system, especially headphones and the other tubes, for example, rectifier and output tubes. All three of these 6SN7 are wonderful in the right system. None of them are the best in every system.
> 
> My advice is to be patient, enjoy your 1578, and wait for good deals on the others. And then be prepared to spend some time swapping the other components to find the best match for your ears.



Yes indeed it really depends. But there is one thing that's for sure, I expect differences between the tubes and unfortunately there is not enough information online about them, which is why I'm hoping someone that has tried the two, or the three of them could tell me the major differences between the tsrp, the melz and the sylvania metal base. I'd buy the tubes and see for myself but that could cost me up to 1,000 canadian dollars, I've already spent that amount of money on two Takatsuki 300B's, let's just say it is not pleasant for the wallet


----------



## JKDJedi

Dave01236 said:


> Yes indeed it really depends. But there is one thing that's for sure, I expect differences between the tubes and unfortunately there is not enough information online about them, which is why I'm hoping someone that has tried the two, or the three of them could tell me the major differences between the tsrp, the melz and the sylvania metal base. I'd buy the tubes and see for myself but that could cost me up to 1,000 canadian dollars, I've already spent that amount of money on two Takatsuki 300B's, let's just say it is not pleasant for the wallet


Take one for the team 😂 we're behind ya on this!


----------



## gibosi

Dave01236 said:


> Yes indeed it really depends. But there is one thing that's for sure, I expect differences between the tubes and unfortunately there is not enough information online about them, which is why I'm hoping someone that has tried the two, or the three of them could tell me the major differences between the tsrp, the melz and the sylvania metal base. I'd buy the tubes and see for myself but that could cost me up to 1,000 canadian dollars, I've already spent that amount of money on two Takatsuki 300B's, let's just say it is not pleasant for the wallet



If you haven't checked the following threads, you might find them useful. But unfortunately the only way know for sure is try them in your system.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread

http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide


----------



## bcowen

Dave01236 said:


> I've already spent that amount of money on two Takatsuki 300B's, let's just say it is not pleasant for the wallet



Yeah, but they're 300B's!!!  Wallets are irrelevant in such cases.


----------



## Dave01236

bcowen said:


> Yeah, but they're 300B's!!!  Wallets are irrelevant in such cases.



Totally agreed. I don't regret it at all!


----------



## wazzupi

I purchased melz 6n8s year 1963

Are they supposedly be to be similar to this post ?




I got them about a month ago btw thank you I like em I still need to burn them in


----------



## JKDJedi

wazzupi said:


> I purchased melz 6n8s year 1963
> 
> Are they supposedly be to be similar to this post ?
> 
> I got them about a month ago btw thank you I like em I still need to burn them in


Those appear to be the Real Deal Holyfield. Congrats! 😁


----------



## gibosi

wazzupi said:


> I purchased melz 6n8s year 1963
> 
> Are they supposedly be to be similar to this post ?
> 
> I got them about a month ago btw thank you I like em I still need to burn them in



Yes, yours appear to be the real deal. 

But I would modify the above quoted description about "Real 1578s"

1) The ink used to print "1578" is often fairly soft, and you will often find "Real 1578s" without that text. It has been rubbed off. So it is critical to closely examine the construction.

2) In addition to the construction details above, a real 1578 will have metal springs attached to the tabs of the top mica spacer. And two, the top and bottom mica spacers are identical. That is, the bottom mica spacer will have the same tabs on the shorter sides, even though they serve no purpose.

Enjoy.


----------



## maxemil

Can anyone identify the date code of the NOS Sylvania 6SL7 GT VT-229 I just got? I can't find any hints.

Thanks a lot!


----------



## gibosi

maxemil said:


> Can anyone identify the date code of the NOS Sylvania 6SL7 GT VT-229 I just got? I can't find any hints.
> 
> Thanks a lot!



The right-hand column suggests 1958 week #5. However, the left-hand column seems strange to me. Looking at several of my Sylvanias 6SN7's from about that time, there is only one column of numbers, not two.

On top, etched into the glass, I would expect to see 6SL7GT, enclosed within an octagon. And perhaps, below the octagon, a letter indicating the month, a number indicating the year, and sometimes another letter indicating the factory. Do you see these on your tube?


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> The right-hand column suggests 1958 week #5. However, the left-hand column seems strange to me. Looking at several of my Sylvanias 6SN7's from about that time, there is only one column of numbers, not two.
> 
> On top, etched into the glass, I would expect to see 6SL7GT, enclosed within an octagon. And perhaps, below the octagon, a letter indicating the month, a number indicating the year, and sometimes another letter indicating the factory. Do you see these on your tube?


Thanks @gibosi I had the same read on that from the same post he did on the other thread, the two columns is indeed not the usual, at least with the Sylvania 6SN7 type


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks @gibosi I had the same read on that from the same post he did on the other thread, the two columns is indeed not the usual, at least with the Sylvania 6SN7 type



Sometimes I will see Sylvania's EIA code, 312, in one column, and the date code in the next.  But 582 makes no sense to me.


----------



## maxemil

Thanks for trying to help me. Attached please see the picture of the top of the 6SL7GT.


----------



## gibosi

maxemil said:


> Thanks for trying to help me. Attached please see the picture of the top of the 6SL7GT.



The etching was applied to the glass when the glass bottle was assembled and evacuated in the factory, and then it was stored in a warehouse. The date applied to the base is when the tube was retrieved from the warehouse, labeled, put in a box and shipped out. So the etched letter I = September and "7" equals 1957. The date on the base, 805,  represents the 5th week of 1958, when it was labeled, boxed and shipped out.


----------



## maxemil

gibosi said:


> The etching was applied to the glass when the glass bottle was assembled and evacuated in the factory, and then it was stored in a warehouse. The date applied to the base is when the tube was retrieved from the warehouse, labeled, put in a box and shipped out. So the etched letter I = September and "7" equals 1957. The date on the base, 805,  represents the 5th week of 1958, when it was labeled, boxed and shipped out.


Thanks for your detailed and precise explanation. I am impressed about your knowledge. Particularly after researching for hours in vain.
Final question: do you also have an idea about the first sequence of numbers: 582 left to the 805?


----------



## sennfan83261 (Sep 11, 2020)

maxemil said:


> Thanks for your detailed and precise explanation. I am impressed about your knowledge. Particularly after researching for hours in vain.
> Final question: do you also have an idea about the first sequence of numbers: 582 left to the 805?


Usually that's the EIA code showing which tube manufacturer made the tube because the conventional numbering scheme for triple digit identifiers that denote the time of manufacture around that time had the first digit as the year and the last two digits as the week of the year; Sylvania adopted this date code scheme in 1947 (http://www.dvhrc.com/pdfs/February_1996.pdf). Obviously there's only 52 weeks in a year not 82, so the first triple digit identifier looks like an EIA code. However, "582" does not seem to align with typical EIA codes shown in tube sites: https://tubesound.com/who-manufactured-your-tube/

However, here's a fuller list of EIA codes as of 1961: https://www.ecianow.org/assets/docs/EIAStandards/1.7.4_EIAcodes1961.pdf

582 in this guide denotes General Precision, Inc. of New York. Other well-known tube manufactures (322: Tung Sol; 312: Sylvania; 337: Westinghouse) are represented in the guide too.

However, the EIA code 582 is omitted in the 1953 EIA guide and the EIA numbering does not hit 500 in 1946 (see edit link). So, the tube that you are holding may have been outsourced to General Precision, Inc. some unknown manufacturer under contract with Sylvania and manufactured in the fifth week of 1948. This year makes sense since usage of this tube may have peaked in 1949: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6sl7gt.html

Still, there's an outside chance that Sylvania outsourced the manufacturing for this tube to General Precision, Inc. (EIA 582 in 1959: http://audiophool.com/Misc/1959_EIA_codes-6.gif), which manufactured your tube in the fifth week of 1958.

Of course, a scammer may have silk-screened all of that info on that base, thus rendering what I said above moot. Unlikely though, as such a cheap tube isn't worth the effort.

Looking at the EIA list from 1995 (http://www.davelevasseur.com/wp-con...-1995-Source-and-Date-code-ID-43212-OCR-1.pdf), almost all of the old tube manufacturers are gone 

Whew. After all of that digging, why doesn't someone hand me a 421A? hehe

EDIT: Some additional yearly EIA code lists: http://audiophool.com/Techno.html


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Usually that's the EIA code showing which tube manufacturer made the tube because the conventional numbering scheme for triple digit identifiers that denote the time of manufacture around that time had the first digit as the year and the last two digits as the week of the year; Sylvania adopted this date code scheme in 1947 (http://www.dvhrc.com/pdfs/February_1996.pdf). Obviously there's only 52 weeks in a year not 82, so the first triple digit identifier looks like an EIA code. However, "582" does not seem to align with typical EIA codes shown in tube sites: https://tubesound.com/who-manufactured-your-tube/
> 
> However, here's a fuller list of EIA codes as of 1961: https://www.ecianow.org/assets/docs/EIAStandards/1.7.4_EIAcodes1961.pdf
> 
> ...


extraordinary work here @sennfan83261  huge thanks for the effort here..  Might have to copy and paste this for future reference.


----------



## Dave01236

I received those beauties a few days ago, after a month of waiting! They are a matched pair of 6N8S Melz from 1952! You don't see many of these for sale online. Let's just say my pair of Melz 1963 sounds amazing and I was satisfied with those, but that pair from 1952 is something else! They are way more transparent! I also feel like the mids sound a tad better as well. As soon as I plugged them in I was impressed by the sound. For 60US I am a very happy guy. It's crazy that my pair of sylvania 6sn7w metal base that I got for 400+ US (the pricing of those tubes is absolutely nuts) doesn't sound as good to me as my 1952 6n8s tubes. The mids are totally not the same, and they don't have the same magic in the highs! Not only the melz tubes have the best price/performance, they sound a lot better than tubes that sell for 400+ and more! Now of course that is based on my experience, on different setups and on different ears, it might not be like that. 

I am totally on the hunt for old Melz tubes now!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Dave01236 said:


> I received those beauties a few days ago, after a month of waiting! They are a matched pair of 6N8S Melz from 1952! You don't see many of these for sale online. Let's just say my pair of Melz 1963 sounds amazing and I was satisfied with those, but that pair from 1952 is something else! They are way more transparent! I also feel like the mids sound a tad better as well. As soon as I plugged them in I was impressed by the sound. For 60US I am a very happy guy. It's crazy that my pair of sylvania 6sn7w metal base that I got for 400+ US (the pricing of those tubes is absolutely nuts) doesn't sound as good to me as my 1952 6n8s tubes. The mids are totally not the same, and they don't have the same magic in the highs! Not only the melz tubes have the best price/performance, they sound a lot better than tubes that sell for 400+ and more! Now of course that is based on my experience, on different setups and on different ears, it might not be like that.
> 
> I am totally on the hunt for old Melz tubes now!!!


Nice find , congrats!


----------



## gibosi

Wes S said:


> So after yesterday's tube rolling adventures, I ended up keeping this combo in, and I am listening with it as I type this.
> 
> 
> This is the first version KenRad 6SN7GT Black Glass from 43' with the metal tabs holding the top mica, and sounds incredible in my BHC and my ZMF Aelous hooked up.  The bass is awesome, and the depth and detail in the mids is killer.  This tube definitely is a bass monster, but where it also shines is at low level detail and speed in the mids, and depth of soundstage.  The KenRad sounds like the Sylvania W Metal Base and Tung Sol BGRP had a baby, and the Kenrad got the best traits of both parents.



Inspired by @Wes S recent 6SN7 tube rolling adventure in his BHC, I decided to pick up an early Ken-Rad 6SN7GT with heat-radiators installed above the top mica. My tube carries the date code W2, which likely corresponds to August, 1942, if I understand the date-code scheme correctly.

And I rolled the Ken-Rad in an amp that is very different than a BHC. I have a Glenn OTL. And for this roll I used six Melz 6H12C (6N12S), three per channel, as output tubes, a single Ken-Rad as a driver and a Philip's GZ34 (Sittard) rectifier.




I can't remember a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT ever sounding this good. But I don't know how much might be due to this being a very early version of the Ken-Rad and how much might be due to this particular output tube / rectifer combination. Whatever, formidable bass, clear and sweet vocals (listening to Nora Jones at the moment), and low level detail, make this an immensely enjoyable roll.


----------



## Shane D

Anyone in Canada interested in buying a batch of tubes? Seven in all. Feel free to PM me.

Reason for sale is that Drop ended up refunding my DarkVoice due to short stock.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> Anyone in Canada interested in buying a batch of tubes? Seven in all. Feel free to PM me.
> 
> Reason for sale is that Drop ended up refunding my DarkVoice due to short stock.


Was it something I said ...


----------



## Shane D

JKDJedi said:


> Was it something I said ...



Not at all! Thank you very much for the help along the way. The order didn't go through so I went from all in to all out.


----------



## JKDJedi

Shane D said:


> Not at all! Thank you very much for the help along the way. The order didn't go through so I went from all in to all out.


I know, just teasing ya. Please keep me posted on the new headphones 🙂


----------



## Shane D

JKDJedi said:


> I know, just teasing ya. Please keep me posted on the new headphones 🙂


Just got my Edition XX's tonight. Man they are HUGE! At the very shortest setting they cover all my ears and more.  

I am now in the office working so I am using them through my desktop system (which I never do). They sound very nice but I am dying to try them in my main system in the morning. And of course comparing them to the competition.


----------



## lupoal

Hi, 
i‘ve received and installed right now a couple of 6H8C dated 1952 in my LD2 togheter with couple of CV4014... the CV already ran about 50 hours and are quite good together with a pair of Tungsol 6SN7GTB I have... the 6H are brand new, they ran today roughly 10 hours and sound quite bad ( I stopped listening music today because how bad they are)

my question is... how long do they have to run as burn-in?


----------



## JKDJedi

lupoal said:


> Hi,
> i‘ve received and installed right now a couple of 6H8C dated 1952 in my LD2 togheter with couple of CV4014... the CV already ran about 50 hours and are quite good together with a pair of Tungsol 6SN7GTB I have... the 6H are brand new, they ran today roughly 10 hours and sound quite bad ( I stopped listening music today because how bad they are)
> 
> my question is... how long do they have to run as burn-in?


6H8C Melz? probably the same.. if not more.. 100 hours.


----------



## lupoal

... probably Foton, those with the ribbed plates... I bought two from 52 and two from 53 (should all be NOS) and 3$ each plus shipment

... that story about burn-in is the most boring part of this hobby... is there any other way to burn-in tubes except in the amplifier running?


----------



## JKDJedi

lupoal said:


> ... probably Foton, those with the ribbed plates... I bought two from 52 and two from 53 (should all be NOS) and 3$ each plus shipment
> 
> ... that story about burn-in is the most boring part of this hobby... is there any other way to burn-in tubes except in the amplifier running?


resoldering the pins. and you did buy $3 tubes.. 😂


----------



## Slade01

lupoal said:


> ... probably Foton, those with the ribbed plates... I bought two from 52 and two from 53 (should all be NOS) and 3$ each plus shipment
> 
> ... that story about burn-in is the most boring part of this hobby... is there any other way to burn-in tubes except in the amplifier running?



The only other way I know (which is not a regular consumer/cost effective solution) to burn in tubes is by way of using a maxi-burn unit which i believe is about 1500 dollars - tube sellers and such can burn in like 30 tubes at a time per unit.

For russian tubes, I would definitely try @JKDJedi 's advice with pin resoldering.  It seems to really immensely help with the Fotons, and users have found considerable improvements with this technique + fotons.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 4, 2020)

lupoal said:


> ... probably Foton, those with the ribbed plates... I bought two from 52 and two from 53 (should all be NOS) and 3$ each plus shipment
> 
> ... that story about burn-in is the most boring part of this hobby... is there any other way to burn-in tubes except in the amplifier running?



As @JKDJedi and @Slade01 have mentioned, resoldering the pins will help reduce the break-in time substantially.  Still, even with resoldering, the Fotons need about 20 hours of break-in to fully settle in (IMO).

I know of no way (beyond a purpose-built component like the MaxiBurn) to safely break-in a tube other than letting it play in a suitable amp or preamp. I have an old preamp I use for just this purpose.  If you're going to be rolling a lot of new (ie: unused) tubes, might be fun to search the used market for something cheap, or if you're a DIY type there are some basic Chinese preamp kits on Ebay for cheap that could be put together to do this.  May be a bit "out there," but consider the source.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

@Ripper2860 mentioned a Fivre tube in a recent message. So I look them up...and wow...they are pretty (and expensive).  

Anybody else have experience with these high-price tubes?  Thoughts on them?  

And what do you think is a fair price?  Right now they are selling for around ~$200 per 6sn7 on ebay.


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> @Ripper2860 mentioned a Fivre tube in a recent message. So I look them up...and wow...they are pretty (and expensive).
> 
> Anybody else have experience with these high-price tubes?  Thoughts on them?
> 
> And what do you think is a fair price?  Right now they are selling for around ~$200 per 6sn7 on ebay.



To my ears, Fivre 6SN7GT puts the mid-range, that is vocals, front and center. And in my experience this is characteristic of Fivre's house sound, as their 6BX7GT and rectifiers, 5U4G, 5R4GY and 5Z3 sound very similar. I like to use Fivre in darker systems to liven things up a bit. So if you are a fan of midrange and vocals, the Fivre 6SN7GT might be a nice tube to have. However, $200 does seem a little steep to me.


----------



## lupoal (Nov 4, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> resoldering the pins. and you did buy $3 tubes.. 😂


You know it is called “ to play” ... it is not necessary to be serious all time in the life... and I will never resolder an expensive tube

... but somebody talked about your ”technique“ and I remember somebody else talking about a set of picture you took explaining step-by-step procedure... are you going to post your/those picture here?


----------



## JKDJedi

lupoal said:


> You know it is called “ to play” ... it is not necessary to be serious all time in the life... and I will never resolder an expensive tube


I'll drink to that, It's not that hard really, just takes some practice. Few members here were nice enough to guide me through the process. Heck some might even offer to do it for ya.


----------



## LoryWiv (Nov 12, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> @Ripper2860 mentioned a Fivre tube in a recent message. So I look them up...and wow...they are pretty (and expensive).
> 
> Anybody else have experience with these high-price tubes?  Thoughts on them?
> 
> And what do you think is a fair price?  Right now they are selling for around ~$200 per 6sn7 on ebay.


I'm currently running Fivre 6V6 drivers and they definitely are neutral, not warm-leaning, and yes a bit mid-forward. Of course these are not 6SN7, using adapters from Deyan in Feliks Elise, so YMMV.


----------



## Yoram Diamand

Hi, there is no ACME 6sn7 tube but I found new kid LINLAI Elite 6sn7 which should be its competition. For the Feliks Audio Euforia. I hope they will fit since the amp is small. This happened with the Globe Psvane 6sn7-SE.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Thread's been dead for a minute. 

Anyone heard of this tube?  Thoughts on it?  The seller is one I trust and I'm tempted to try it:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/333413198867?hash=item4da0f9ac13:g:rnIAAOSwnhdd3PjS#viTabs_0


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Thread's been dead for a minute.
> 
> Anyone heard of this tube?  Thoughts on it?  The seller is one I trust and I'm tempted to try it:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/333413198867?hash=item4da0f9ac13:g:rnIAAOSwnhdd3PjS#viTabs_0


I own at least one of them and as I recall it is a very good sounding tube. German made, I have been told they built for Siemens and Telefunken. Provided the tube is in good condition, that is within the price range of most I have seen but mine were NOS.


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Thread's been dead for a minute.
> 
> Anyone heard of this tube?  Thoughts on it?  The seller is one I trust and I'm tempted to try it:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/333413198867?hash=item4da0f9ac13:g:rnIAAOSwnhdd3PjS#viTabs_0



For what it might be worth....

RFT (Rundfunk-und Fernmelde-Technik) manufactured this tube in Röhrenwerk Mühlhausen, a state-owned factory in East Germany, during the Cold War. They acquired a number of Telefunken assets after the war and the rectifiers from Mühlhausen. also with ceramic spacers, that I have heard sound very similar to Telefunken rectifiers.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> For what it might be worth....
> 
> RFT (Rundfunk-und Fernmelde-Technik) manufactured this tube in Röhrenwerk Mühlhausen, a state-owned factory in East Germany, during the Cold War. They acquired a number of Telefunken assets after the war and the rectifiers from Mühlhausen. also with ceramic spacers, that I have heard sound very similar to Telefunken rectifiers.


Somebody bought it as soon as I posted this.  Damn.


----------



## hodgjy

PsilocybinCube said:


> Somebody bought it as soon as I posted this.  Damn.


I’ve learned two things here over the years about posting auctions in the forums.

1) someone innocently posts a listing to get opinions or facts, and someone else sees it and scoops it up.

2) a friend of the seller or the seller themselves pose as someone else claiming to be doing #1 above to drum up sales.

You’re a victim of #1 so take it as a lesson to not share your finds with hundreds of potential buyers.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 17, 2021)

hodgjy said:


> I’ve learned two things here over the years about posting auctions in the forums.
> 
> 1) someone innocently posts a listing to get opinions or facts, and someone else sees it and scoops it up.
> 
> ...


I never scoop up tubes that way and even when I tell friends about tubes I think are a bargain, I tell them if it is not gone by a certain date I may buy it.😀

There are specific tubes I never tell folks about if I see them because of rarity.

I should add after about a two year hunt for tubes for a 6SN7 challenge, I can think of no equivalents we want we do not have.😸😸


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Somebody bought it as soon as I posted this.  Damn.


If I find a nice one I will PM you.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> If I find a nice one I will PM you.


I appreciate it.  The whole thing is kind of funny, really.  People love some 6sn7 tubes (me included).

I purchased some ecc40 tubes from the same seller and have been enjoying those a lot.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> I appreciate it.  The whole thing is kind of funny, really.  People love some 6sn7 tubes (me included).
> 
> I purchased some ecc40 tubes from the same seller and have been enjoying those a lot.


I have tried other tubes but right now my focus is mainly on 6SN7’s and a few types of equivalents. At last count a local group and I have over 1900 types as best I recall, my hands are pretty ful with those.😀


----------



## eric5kim

Any recommendations on where to buy 6SN7 NOS tubes? Also, how does the new prod Tung Sol's compare to 6SN7GTB Sylvania 1950 chrome domes?  I'm also thinking about picking up a 6SN7GT RCA grey glass 1940's.   JAN Sylvania 6SN7WGT 3rivet bad boy seems to be good but $$$


----------



## JKDJedi

eric5kim said:


> Any recommendations on where to buy 6SN7 NOS tubes? Also, how does the new prod Tung Sol's compare to 6SN7GTB Sylvania 1950 chrome domes?  I'm also thinking about picking up a 6SN7GT RCA grey glass 1940's.   JAN Sylvania 6SN7WGT 3rivet bad boy seems to be good but $$$


Get the Sylvania Chrome Dome and RCA Grey glass ..  you can find them 3 rivet bad boys from unsuspecting sellers for cheap .. Sylvania made them for other companies so study the inards well. The new red based Tung Sols are ok after couple hours of burn in


----------



## attmci

PsilocybinCube said:


> Somebody bought it as soon as I posted this.  Damn.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/114166442821?hash=item1a94d9ab45:g:qU4AAOSwt9BehPrB


----------



## attmci

PsilocybinCube said:


> I appreciate it.  The whole thing is kind of funny, really.  People love some 6sn7 tubes (me included).
> 
> I purchased some ecc40 tubes from the same seller and have been enjoying those a lot.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/294025099002?hash=item447542f6fa:g:kfsAAOSwQdhgMgsz


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2021)

eric5kim said:


> Any recommendations on where to buy 6SN7 NOS tubes? Also, how does the new prod Tung Sol's compare to 6SN7GTB Sylvania 1950 chrome domes?  I'm also thinking about picking up a 6SN7GT RCA grey glass 1940's.   JAN Sylvania 6SN7WGT 3rivet bad boy seems to be good but $$$


Be careful in seeking out a 'Bad Boy' (BB).  There was never a WGT 'Bad Boy'.  While some WGT do have 3 rivet plates, they are not really BBs.  Be leery of BB listings as many sellers use the BB designation erroneously. 

Sylvania Bad Boys are 6SN7GT (no W), tall bottle, 3 rivet opposing T plates, rectangular bottom mica, rectangular top mica with 3 spikes on each short side, bottom chrome flashing extending 1/3 up the tube, bottom rectangular foil getter holder, and date codes are late 1951 to early 1953.

And they are absolutely OEM'ed by others like Motorola, Philco, etc.


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> Be careful in seeking out a 'Bad Boy' (BB).  There was never a WGT 'Bad Boy'.  While some WGT do have 3 rivet plates, they are not really BBs.  Be leery of BB listings as many sellers use the BB designation erroneously.
> 
> *Sylvania Bad Boys are 6SN7GT (no W), tall bottle, 3 rivet opposing T plates, rectangular bottom mica, rectangular top mica with 3 spikes on each short side, bottom chrome flashing extending 1/3 up the tube, bottom rectangular foil getter holder, and date codes are late 1951 to early 1953.*
> 
> And they are absolutely OEM'ed by others like Motorola, Philco, etc.


Thanks @Ripper2860 , that is very clear and helpful. Sonically, do you think they live up to their reputation as a top tier 6SN7 or did some clever seller just slap the moniker on these to drive up prices?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2021)

Prices have gotten a bit crazy on the BB tubes, but then again, they are on the upward march for virtually all tubes.  I have 3x BBs (2x-Sylvania and 1x Philco*).  It's a good tube with good bass slam and nice top-end. A bit energetic w/o being in-your-face.  A great tube for Rock/Metal and maybe even EDM.  Since my listening habits lean heavily to Jazz, I really prefer a more lush/textured midrange and perhaps a tad more warmth than the BBs deliver with my rig. Honestly, my BBs get very little play time -- not because they are not good tubes, it's just that they don't offer that luscious sound I'm looking for with my amp and HP pairing.

IMHO -- At $100+ there are better values.  Now if you happen to stumble across one at $60-$70 dollars, it's worth a try as you'll likely get back your money + some if you sell it.  I think much of the asking prices on the Sylvania branded ones are related to rarity and collectability, but they are a good tube. 

*I paid $25 for the Philco, BTW.  It pays to know the construction attributes of the tube one is looking for and searching for re-branded versions.


----------



## attmci (Jul 29, 2021)

attmci said:


> ECC33 and Fivres are my favorite 6SN7 tubes.


I will add ECC35 to the list (posted in 2017).

I stuck to my words.


----------



## Bonddam

I will try Hamfest this year. Been told I can buy nos tubes for nothing. My customer rebuilds old radios and goes to Hamfest for tubes. He had a pair of black glass 6sn7 Ken Rad that some ebay people sell for $400 buck. He didn't even know what he had. Bought 2500 tubes from one seller for 100 bucks. I would think stores go to these conventions to buy. So hopefully it pans out.


----------



## OceanRanger

Bonddam said:


> I will try Hamfest this year. Been told I can buy nos tubes for nothing. My customer rebuilds old radios and goes to Hamfest for tubes. He had a pair of black glass 6sn7 Ken Rad that some ebay people sell for $400 buck. He didn't even know what he had. Bought 2500 tubes from one seller for 100 bucks. I would think stores go to these conventions to buy. So hopefully it pans out.


Haha, that's cool. I'm a ham operator. Curious to hear about what you find...


----------



## LoryWiv

Bonddam said:


> I will try Hamfest this year. Been told I can buy nos tubes for nothing. My customer rebuilds old radios and goes to Hamfest for tubes. He had a pair of black glass 6sn7 Ken Rad that some ebay people sell for $400 buck. He didn't even know what he had. Bought 2500 tubes from one seller for 100 bucks. I would think stores go to these conventions to buy. So hopefully it pans out.


@Bonddam - Please let us know how that pans out, if favorable I may look for one in my area!


----------



## Bonddam

http://www.arrl.org/hamfests-and-conventions-calendar


----------



## fuzzroffe

Psvane Hifi series 6SN7, anyone tried these?


----------



## Bonddam

fuzzroffe said:


> Psvane Hifi series 6SN7, anyone tried these?


I can say their cv181tmk2 are good. Use them sometimes in my Woo WA5 LE. I mix them with kr300b HP but don't like them with EML 300b. It's a shot in the bucket. You might as well try them.


----------



## bcowen

Bonddam said:


> I can say their cv181tmk2 are good. Use them sometimes in my Woo WA5 LE. I mix them with kr300b HP but don't like them with EML 300b. It's a shot in the bucket. You might as well try them.


I like the CV181T Mk II as well.  Nice sounding tube, just expensive.  And I bought a pair of the EML 300BXLS's for use in my Jota amp.  Didn't much care for them (personally), and ended up selling them pretty quickly.  Greatly prefer the KR 300BXLS.  Not a lot of options in a high current 300B...


----------



## Bonddam

bcowen said:


> I like the CV181T Mk II as well.  Nice sounding tube, just expensive.  And I bought a pair of the EML 300BXLS's for use in my Jota amp.  Didn't much care for them (personally), and ended up selling them pretty quickly.  Greatly prefer the KR 300BXLS.  Not a lot of options in a high current 300B...


I took a break from wanting the Ken Rad black tops. It's just easier to swallow buying new. 
So new production would be better if they used banned materials. 
If NASA comes through with their idea of a semi conductor inside a vacuum tube would lead to something interesting.  It's basically because semi is maxed out.


----------



## kingjim1954

Nicola said:


> Hi all 6SN7 is beatiful tube, I have
> 6SN7/VT231 Sylvania
> 6SN7/VT231 Ken Rad black glass '42
> 6SN7 Tungsol mouse ears
> ...


----------



## Odin412

The new Psvane 'Tennis Ball' tube looks quite imposing in my Lyr 3. Now it's time to listen to it.


----------



## Tom-s

Props for the knowledgable guys who can identify this one.

Hint. It's call sign is not 6SN7. However it identifies as one on steroids. Is build like a tank and tests very similar.


----------



## Bonddam

Tom-s said:


> Props for the knowledgable guys who can identify this one.
> 
> Hint. It's call sign is not 6SN7. However it identifies as one on steroids. Is build like a tank and tests very similar.


Was it made by Bendix


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Tom-s said:


> Props for the knowledgable guys who can identify this one.
> 
> Hint. It's call sign is not 6SN7. However it identifies as one on steroids. Is build like a tank and tests very similar.


RTX 3090?


----------



## gibosi

Tom-s said:


> Props for the knowledgable guys who can identify this one.
> 
> Hint. It's call sign is not 6SN7. However it identifies as one on steroids. Is build like a tank and tests very similar.



How about a better picture? So we can see the internal construction?


----------



## Tom-s

No one's close as of yet. Thanks for playing along. Here's another picture. Showing two of them.

No more hints after this one. 

It's a more rare tube. Seldom discussed on this forum.


----------



## Bonddam

Tom-s said:


> No one's close as of yet. Thanks for playing along. Here's another picture. Showing two of them.
> 
> No more hints after this one.
> 
> It's a more rare tube. Seldom discussed on this forum.


I don't know.


----------



## gibosi

Tom-s said:


> No one's close as of yet. Thanks for playing along. Here's another picture. Showing two of them.
> 
> No more hints after this one.
> 
> It's a more rare tube. Seldom discussed on this forum.



While I don't have one, it looks a bit like a 5692?


----------



## JTbbb

Yes it does look close to a 5692, but these are not rare.


----------



## Bonddam

Bought random pick no research just dive in. See how it turns out. I'm more into clarity and bass. I don't pay attention to timber or tonal.

RCA 6SN7GTB SIDE "D" GETTER SHORT BOTTLE Tubes *PLATINUM MATCHED on AT1000*


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Yes it does look close to a 5692, but these are not rare.



If I don't have it, I think it is rare. lol


----------



## Astral Abyss

Tom-s said:


> No one's close as of yet. Thanks for playing along. Here's another picture. Showing two of them.
> 
> No more hints after this one.
> 
> It's a more rare tube. Seldom discussed on this forum.



Looks kinda-British... could be a 13D2 or B65.  Don't see many/any of those around.


----------



## Marutks (Aug 31, 2021)

Tom-s said:


> Props for the knowledgable guys who can identify this one.
> 
> Hint. It's call sign is not 6SN7. However it identifies as one on steroids. Is build like a tank and tests very similar.



Is it 6080?  It looks similar to my 6080 tube.


----------



## JTbbb

Have I done ok today? Destined for a crack. £99.00


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Tom-s said:


> No one's close as of yet. Thanks for playing along. Here's another picture. Showing two of them.
> 
> No more hints after this one.
> 
> It's a more rare tube. Seldom discussed on this forum.



Tom, we evidently give up!  Tell us...


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Have I done ok today? Destined for a crack. £99.00


I'd say.  Great price!


----------



## Ripper2860

The only way it could have been a better acquisition is if it had been me buying it.  😒


----------



## Bonddam

Being I’m selling my wells Dragon I want to unload my tube collection for that amp. My staying amp WA5 LE that is 6sn7 driver base. Which is best site to sell on? Notice head fi doesn’t seem that excited to purchase tubes. I know eBay but the fees suck.  All tubes bought from real tube website and all NOS. 12bh7 and 6922(6dj8). Have paper receipts show all info.


----------



## Tom-s

I knew it was a challenge as these are rarely discussed on these forums.

All those thinking of a 5692. You were sort of right. It's very much based on the 5692 how i see it.
This is a tube from 1954. It was made by Tesla in Czechoslovakia. Tesla 6CC1 (that later became 6CC10). It's close to 5692. However it doesn't seem made under license of RCA, like the Ericsson 33S30 or the Telefunken 6SN7WGT. It has the same 5 metal supports and triple mica. It uses a DD getter on top at a 45 degrees angle. Not like the flat getters on the top mica in an RCA. A similar type welded plate construction. All to make them very vibration resistant, as was the purpose with the 5692.

My NIB pair came in these beautifull Tesla boxes with the tubes wrapped with some sort of buying / warranty note that I simply can't read . 

Had these for a few years now. And listen to them from time to time. They have a lively and energetic sound. Tight and similar to the 5692. They tighten up the soundstage like most tubes with more detailed and controlled sound do; ime.


----------



## Ripper2860

Very nice!!!


----------



## gibosi

After being perplexed by the Tesla 5692-wannabe posted by @Tom-s, I thought I would post some pictures of a couple gray-glass 6SN7GT that are fairly rare and seldom discussed in this forum. And no, neither of these is an RCA or a National Union. But still I suspect that these are more common than the Tesla 6CC1.


----------



## leftside

gibosi said:


> After being perplexed by the Tesla 5692-wannabe posted by @Tom-s, I thought I would post some pictures of a couple gray-glass 6SN7GT that are fairly rare and seldom discussed in this forum. And no, neither of these is an RCA or a National Union. But still I suspect that these are more common than the Tesla 6CC1.


Looks like a Tungsram Tottenham on the left?


----------



## gibosi

Yes, you can make out the letters "KB/T" which indicates Tottenham. After I posted the picture I figured it would be too easy to figure out.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll go with Philips tube on the right.  😉


----------



## gibosi

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll go with Philips tube on the right.  😉



And you would be right. This tube was manufactured by Philips at their Eindhoven, Holland factory. And I believe I have also seen these gray-glass 6SN7GT manufactured by Philips (Mazda MBLE) at their Bruxelles factory.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'd like to lay claim to the title of 'Tube Genius', but I cheated.  If one zooms in on the pic they can see the partial Philips name on the backside of the glass.  😀


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 5, 2021)

Darn Double post.


----------



## gibosi

Ripper2860 said:


> I'd like to lay claim to the title of 'Tube Genius', but if one zooms in they can see the partial Philips name on the backside of the glass.  😀



Yes, I figured that if someone zoomed in they would be able to see the Philips name. But I was too lazy to find a way to completely hide all the silk-screening in the two photos.

And it's probably for the best as I suspect that very few people have any experience with either of these.


----------



## Ripper2860

So...  Don't hold out.  How do they sound?  The Philips going rate on eBay is about $200 I think.


----------



## gibosi

Ripper2860 said:


> So...  Don't hold out.  How do they sound?  The Philips going rate on eBay is about $200 I think.



Well, two caveats. It's been several years since I last listened to this tube. And two, my ears are old, maybe even ancient, and I can no longer discern subtle sonic differences. So the mid-range is where it's at for me, that is, "tone".

So I would say that if you like the sound of other Philips Holland-made tubes, such as the ECC88, ECC40 or E80CC, then I think you might like the 6SN7GT. They are somewhat bright with that "lush" mid-range which characterizes the Holland sound. Whether they are worth $200 I can't say. I've had mine a long time and I didn't pay all that much for them.

Good luck!


----------



## leftside (Sep 6, 2021)

gibosi said:


> So I would say that if you like the sound of other Philips Holland-made tubes, such as the ECC88, ECC40 or E80CC, then I think you might like the 6SN7GT. They are somewhat bright with that "lush" mid-range which characterizes the Holland sound. Whether they are worth $200 I can't say. I've had mine a long time and I didn't pay all that much for them.
> 
> Good luck!


Totally agreed. We’ve started a new thread on EL34 and a whole bunch of other pentodes and beam tetrodes if you’re interested in following along. There will be plenty of Philips Eindhoven on there.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...el51-el39-4654-4699-kt63-kt61-6v6-etc.959519/


----------



## UntilThen

Damm supplier only has Philips Eindhoven to sell to me.


----------



## JTbbb

Here are my pair of 6sn7gty’s. And arriving shortly a 6sn7gtfb (apologies ref photo, not in my hands yet). Any differences between these?


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Here are my pair of 6sn7gty’s. And arriving shortly a 6sn7gtfb (apologies ref photo, not in my hands yet). Any differences between these?


Ooooohhh.....Footscray plant AND round plates.  Sweet!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> Damm supplier only has Philips Eindhoven to sell to me.



Which ones do you want?


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> Which ones do you want?



Some Sittard, Blackburn, Telefunken and Tesla, a variety.


----------



## UntilThen

JTbbb said:


> Here are my pair of 6sn7gty’s. And arriving shortly a 6sn7gtfb (apologies ref photo, not in my hands yet). Any differences between these?



I need to get some of these.


----------



## JTbbb

UntilThen said:


> I need to get some of these.



I do know where there are more of these, never used. But the price for a pair is not for the faint hearted.


----------



## UntilThen

JTbbb said:


> I do know where there are more of these, never used. But the price for a pair is not for the faint hearted.



I only need one. After the financial damage on the EL34 metal plates and the double D getters and GEC KT88 next, I'll have to evaluate if these are good for the not faint hearted. I'll PM you on where to get em !

BUT wait how do they sound? Worth the penny?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 6, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> Here are my pair of 6sn7gty’s. And arriving shortly a 6sn7gtfb (apologies ref photo, not in my hands yet). Any differences between these?


Very nice.  After looking at my stash, I see that I also have a Footscray FB CV1988 / 6SN7GTY!!  



Any assistance with the following Brimar Black Glass CV1988 GTY and Smoked Glass CV1988 variants?  FE and LK seem to be the plant codes.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Very nice.  After looking at my stash, I see that I also have an Footscray FB CV1988 / 6SN7GTY!!
> 
> 
> 
> Any assistance with the following Brimar Black Glass CV1988 GTY and Smoked Glass CV1988 variants?  FE and LK seem to be the plant codes.


FE is STC Oldway (England).  No idea on LK.


----------



## gibosi (Sep 6, 2021)

bcowen said:


> FE is STC Oldway (England).  No idea on LK.



LK is the Common Valve date code: October, 1955.

A was defined as 1945 and Z, 1968 (if I have counted correctly). The letters "i" and "o" were excluded. And the second letter is the month, A = January and M = December.


----------



## UntilThen

Ripper2860 said:


> Any assistance with the following Brimar Black Glass CV1988 GTY and Smoked Glass CV1988 variants? FE and LK seem to be the plant codes.



I can assist with trying it out.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 6, 2021)

Thanks, folks.  Thats all I could find on LK - date code not plant code.  Sadly I do not have the original box and the letter after KB F is close to completely missing but it  looks like it could be an E or B.  Oh, well.  Sounds pretty nice, IIRC.  It's been a while so time to put them back in rotation.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 6, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> I do know where there are more of these, never used. But the price for a pair is not for the faint hearted.


Do tell....Pm if you prefer. Thanks!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Thanks, folks.  Thats all I could find on LK - date code not plant code.  Sadly I do not have the original box and the letter after KB F is close to completely missing but it  looks like it could be an E or B.  Oh, well.  Sounds pretty nice, IIRC.  It's been a while so time to put them back in rotation.


Well, since you now know what both FE and FB are, you should be able to tell which one it is by listening.


----------



## UntilThen

One's E sharp and the other B flat. Not that hard.


----------



## Ripper2860

Of course I can.  I just didn't want to come off as all high and mighty.  😏


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 6, 2021)

Nope not E Sharp vs B Flat.  Close, however.  I gave them a quick listen and it seems the difference is that the  FB is tuned to A=432 Hz while the FE is tuned to A=440 Hz.  😉


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Of course I can.  I just didn't want to come off as all high and mighty.  😏


You can be whoever you want to be on the internet.  Even that.


----------



## UntilThen

Ripper2860 said:


> Nope not E Sharp vs B Flat  Close, however.  I gave them a quick listen and it seems the difference is that the  FB is tuned to A=432 Hz while the FE is tuned to A=440 Hz.  😉



Impressive !


----------



## JTbbb

Ripper2860 said:


> Very nice.  After looking at my stash, I see that I also have a Footscray FB CV1988 / 6SN7GTY!!
> 
> 
> 
> Any assistance with the following Brimar Black Glass CV1988 GTY and Smoked Glass CV1988 variants?  FE and LK seem to be the plant codes.



Mine also have the printing on the glass, which I haven’t seen too often.


----------



## JTbbb

LoryWiv said:


> Do tell....Pm if you prefer. Thanks!



£225 each. Could be scary for some, and not for others!


----------



## Bennera513

WooHoo!  An opportunity to share pics of my 1959 STC Brimar/Footscray 6SN7-GTY/CV1988!  No label on base (like the others here).  Love the sound of this tube,....warm but balanced and 'dimensional'.  Bought from a UK Collector.  Always wondered what the Brimar black glass and non-'Y' varieties sound like, but there's so many versions (Clear Glass/Black Base/Orange vs. White labels.....Black Glass, etc.).


----------



## gibosi (Sep 7, 2021)

Nice tubes. 

However, it's my understanding that the only difference between the Brimar 6SN7GT and the Brimar 6SNGTY is the brown ‘low-loss’ Micanol base. That is, "Y" means that the tube is mounted in that special, more expensive base. But the base has no affect on the sound. So if the construction and date-of-manufacture are the same, there is no difference in sound between a Brimar 6SN7GT and a Brimar 6SN7GTY.


----------



## UntilThen

Thank you all for buying the Brimar 6SN7 and leave the Brimar 6SL7 to me.


----------



## leftside

I have a bunch of single Brimar 6SN7. I tried to match them all up, but would invariably end up with another single with a slight construction variation. I did successfully match a few of them up, but gave up trying to match them all. So many variations over the years....


----------



## UntilThen

leftside said:


> I have a bunch of single Brimar 6SN7. I tried to match them all up, but would invariably end up with another single with a slight construction variation. I did successfully match a few of them up, but gave up trying to match them all. So many variations over the years....



Singles will be perfect for me !!!


----------



## shafat777

Anyone have any experience with RCA VT-231 tubes? I am trying to get some comparison against Kenrad VT231. I am using the KR in my Elise and would love to heard how it differs from the rca ones. Thanks


----------



## Renexx

RCA VT-231 has a more lush midrange, big soundstage, and overall  softer presentation. Surely the kenrads have more bass. 

One of my favourite tubes to use in my Euphoria. Pairs very well with 5998 or GEC 6080.


----------



## shafat777

Renexx said:


> RCA VT-231 has a more lush midrange, big soundstage, and overall  softer presentation. Surely the kenrads have more bass.
> 
> One of my favourite tubes to use in my Euphoria. Pairs very well with 5998 or GEC 6080.


I do think that the ken rad has more bass. So much bass that sometimes wth certain hp, i have to swap pads out to tame the bass a little. I thiknk i might get a pair of RCAs if i can get at a decent price. Thanks for the help bud. Cheers


----------



## larcenasb

L0rdGwyn said:


> I like your approach, being a lumper has it's advantages (i.e., saving a bit of cash)
> 
> Interesting to see the Tung Sol 6SN7GT with the ladder plates!  They really did just take the 6F8G and cram it in smaller bottle.  I can now sleep easy knowing I have that vintage Tung Sol sound on lockdown
> I'll refer to my Ken Rad VT-231 for the 6F8G sound signature, no need to reach and end up with a duplicate tube.  I can forward the money I would have spent into my next tube and/or headphone obsession, after all.
> ...


Hi L0rdGwyn, If it's not too much trouble, could you please snap a side photo of the Crackatwoa with a 6AS7G and the 6F8G? I'm wondering how close the tubes will be. Thanks in advance.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

larcenasb said:


> Hi L0rdGwyn, If it's not too much trouble, could you please snap a side photo of the Crackatwoa with a 6AS7G and the 6F8G? I'm wondering how close the tubes will be. Thanks in advance.



Hi there - sorry to say that amp is long gone!  I can look back and see if I have any photos that show the spacing.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Here is a pic that shows the spacing with a 6SN7.




And here is a 6F8G, although not great for showing the spacing.  With a 6080, you can see they are quite close though.


----------



## larcenasb

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here is a pic that shows the spacing with a 6SN7.
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a 6F8G, although not great for showing the spacing.  With a 6080, you can see they are quite close though.


Ah, okay, the first photo gives me a good idea. Since a 6F8G is just a little wider due to the coke-bottle shape, it looks like it won't actually touch the 6AS7G. Thanks so much for taking the time to help inform me. I really appreciate it. Cheers and take care


----------



## gibosi (Nov 18, 2021)

To all the GE "fanboys".   Actually this is a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT manufactured in 1942. But GE didn't purchase the tube division of Ken-Rad until 1945. So it would appear that GE purchased this tube from Ken-Rad, put the GE name on it and shipped it out the door.

Now, I will admit that I don't have a clue what "54" printed next to U.S.A. indicates. But the Ken-Rad date code "X2" is clearly printed to the left of the GE logo. So it seems to me it is unlikely that "54" is a date code.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> To all the GE "fanboys".   Actually this is a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT manufactured in 1942. But GE didn't purchase the tube division of Ken-Rad until 1945. So it would appear that GE purchased this tube from Ken-Rad, put the GE name on it and shipped it out the door.
> 
> Now, I will admit that I don't have a clue what "54" printed nest to U.S.A. indicates. But the Ken-Rad date code "X2" is clearly printed to the left of the GE logo. So it seems to me it is unlikely that "54" is a date code.


Nice catch.. 😎


----------



## Ranger Ron

gibosi said:


> To all the GE "fanboys".   Actually this is a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT manufactured in 1942. But GE didn't purchase the tube division of Ken-Rad until 1945. So it would appear that GE purchased this tube from Ken-Rad, put the GE name on it and shipped it out the door.
> 
> Now, I will admit that I don't have a clue what "54" printed next to U.S.A. indicates. But the Ken-Rad date code "X2" is clearly printed to the left of the GE logo. So it seems to me it is unlikely that "54" is a date code.


Nice tube. I intended  to snag one just like it  (possibly that one ) off of the bay not too long ago. I don’t know why, but I am a huge fan of the GE labeling on that tube.


----------



## jonathan c

gibosi said:


> To all the GE "fanboys".   Actually this is a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT manufactured in 1942. But GE didn't purchase the tube division of Ken-Rad until 1945. So it would appear that GE purchased this tube from Ken-Rad, put the GE name on it and shipped it out the door.
> 
> Now, I will admit that I don't have a clue what "54" printed next to U.S.A. indicates. But the Ken-Rad date code "X2" is clearly printed to the left of the GE logo. So it seems to me it is unlikely that "54" is a date code.


Why do the “e”s look like Greek epsilons (or the euro symbol) ?


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 18, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Why do the “e”s look like Greek epsilons (or the euro symbol) ?


I've seen this same font used (by GE) on other tubes (6j5 for example) within that time frame, I think it was a 6J5...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-6J5-G-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Bonddam

gibosi said:


> To all the GE "fanboys".   Actually this is a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT manufactured in 1942. But GE didn't purchase the tube division of Ken-Rad until 1945. So it would appear that GE purchased this tube from Ken-Rad, put the GE name on it and shipped it out the door.
> 
> Now, I will admit that I don't have a clue what "54" printed next to U.S.A. indicates. But the Ken-Rad date code "X2" is clearly printed to the left of the GE logo. So it seems to me it is unlikely that "54" is a date code.


I want one for my crack it's damn sexy def a collect tube just to look at


----------



## jonathan c

Bonddam said:


> I want one for my crack it's damn sexy…


😵‍💫…🧐…😆


----------



## UntilThen

Bonddam said:


> I want one for my crack it's damn sexy def a collect tube just to look at


You can’t be serious !


----------



## bcowen (Nov 20, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> You can’t be serious !


I think @Bonddam was referring to his Crack amp, but then I'm not totally sure.


----------



## JKDJedi

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here is a pic that shows the spacing with a 6SN7.
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a 6F8G, although not great for showing the spacing.  With a 6080, you can see they are quite close though.


Beautiful amp there, I've probably asked you about it already, but with my mild Alzheimer's going on... which amp is that? Very nice.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> Beautiful amp there, I've probably asked you about it already, but with my mild Alzheimer's going on... which amp is that? Very nice.



Surely a Bottlehead Crackatwoa.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

CaptainFantastic said:


> Surely a Bottlehead Crackatwoa.



Yup, that's a Crackatwoa @JKDJedi .


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I think @Bonddam was referring to his Crack amp, but then I'm not totally sure.


…at least the BHC does not use a ‘rectumfier’ tube…


----------



## tafens

Argh, seems I have a microphonic tube. Fortunately it’s not one of the more expensive tubes I have, but still. It’s not behaving how I expected it would though.

I always thought a microphonic tube would make a long fading tiiii-iiiiiing sound when disturbed, but this one makes a short metallic thomping sound instead. Inserting the headphones sounds like thompthompthomp as the plug is inserted. Light knock on the amp; thomp, flip the gain switch; thomp, light tap on the tube; thomp…

It wasn’t like this from the start either, It appeared after some 100-ish hours of use.

Oh well, replaced the tube with another of the same type and all is well again, no more thomping 

Edit: the tube is a new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB.


----------



## JKDJedi

tafens said:


> Argh, seems I have a microphonic tube. Fortunately it’s not one of the more expensive tubes I have, but still. It’s not behaving how I expected it would though.
> 
> I always thought a microphonic tube would make a long fading tiiii-iiiiiing sound when disturbed, but this one makes a short metallic thomping sound instead. Inserting the headphones sounds like thompthompthomp as the plug is inserted. Light knock on the amp; thomp, flip the gain switch; thomp, light tap on the tube; thomp…
> 
> ...


well, you got 100 hours out if it. 😂


----------



## PsilocybinCube

tafens said:


> Argh, seems I have a microphonic tube. Fortunately it’s not one of the more expensive tubes I have, but still. It’s not behaving how I expected it would though.
> 
> I always thought a microphonic tube would make a long fading tiiii-iiiiiing sound when disturbed, but this one makes a short metallic thomping sound instead. Inserting the headphones sounds like thompthompthomp as the plug is inserted. Light knock on the amp; thomp, flip the gain switch; thomp, light tap on the tube; thomp…
> 
> ...


Is it one of those ts tubes with a red base?  Those are sort of meh quality-wise.  I've had a couple go out on me, too.


----------



## Ranger Ron

tafens said:


> Argh, seems I have a microphonic tube. Fortunately it’s not one of the more expensive tubes I have, but still. It’s not behaving how I expected it would though.
> 
> I always thought a microphonic tube would make a long fading tiiii-iiiiiing sound when disturbed, but this one makes a short metallic thomping sound instead. Inserting the headphones sounds like thompthompthomp as the plug is inserted. Light knock on the amp; thomp, flip the gain switch; thomp, light tap on the tube; thomp…
> 
> ...


Always a bummer.  Save it for a circuit that is less sensitive to microphonics. I have a pile dedicated for that position. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## tafens

PsilocybinCube said:


> Is it one of those ts tubes with a red base?  Those are sort of meh quality-wise.  I've had a couple go out on me, too.


Yes, dark brownish/red kind of.
How long did yours hold up and how did they fail?

I have used another one of them for probably a few thousand hours before it developed a very faint intermittent static-y sound, barely audible with no music playing. That aside, I do like the sound of them though.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ranger Ron said:


> Always a bummer.  Save it for a circuit that is less sensitive to microphonics. I have a pile dedicated for that position. 🤷🏻‍♂️


Amen to this.  My BHC loves almost every tube I throw at it.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

tafens said:


> Yes, dark brownish/red kind of.
> How long did yours hold up and how did they fail?
> 
> I have used another one of them for probably a few thousand hours before it developed a very faint intermittent static-y sound, barely audible with no music playing. That aside, I do like the sound of them though.


Mine didn't last too long and it was new production.  Maybe 50 hours or so in a BHC???  I think they sound OK, but they aren't super high quality.


----------



## tafens

PsilocybinCube said:


> Mine didn't last too long and it was new production.  Maybe 50 hours or so in a BHC???  I think they sound OK, but they aren't super high quality.


I guess not.. turns out three out of four (matched no less) in the set I bought are microphonic in one way or another.
I still like the sound of them though - at least the non-microphonic ones  - so I’ll give it another go. I’ll just buy from another seller.
And not on eBay


----------



## Bennera513

Hey everyone,...I've been struggling to figure out a good way to store my growing tube collection.  Whenever I get into a the mood to roll some tubes I end up with tubes tossed all over the room and it takes a couple hours to get them all sorted and back into their boxes.  So, this foam test tube holder from Polar Whale, available on Amazon originally had holes for 25, 30 and 40mm tubes.  I sawed off the 25's and it turns out the 30mm holes are perfect for 6080/7236 power tubes.  The 40mm holes are perfect for 6sn7 and variants (exception being my Melz tube, it's a fatty).  I might look into building a box of some sort around this to make a display case.  Ideally I'd have the tubes upright so I show them off, but this works as a quick and dirty solution.  Only problem is identifying them from their bottoms.... How do you guys showcase your tubes?


----------



## gibosi

Bennera513 said:


> Hey everyone,...I've been struggling to figure out a good way to store my growing tube collection.  Whenever I get into a the mood to roll some tubes I end up with tubes tossed all over the room and it takes a couple hours to get them all sorted and back into their boxes.  So, this foam test tube holder from Polar Whale, available on Amazon originally had holes for 25, 30 and 40mm tubes.  I sawed off the 25's and it turns out the 30mm holes are perfect for 6080/7236 power tubes.  The 40mm holes are perfect for 6sn7 and variants (exception being my Melz tube, it's a fatty).  I might look into building a box of some sort around this to make a display case.  Ideally I'd have the tubes upright so I show them off, but this works as a quick and dirty solution.  Only problem is identifying them from their bottoms.... How do you guys showcase your tubes?



I don't showcase my tubes. I simply store them in labeled boxes and then put the boxes on shelves all through the house. lol. But then, I have a few more than you.


----------



## ken6217

bcowen said:


> I think @Bonddam was referring to his Crack amp, but then I'm not totally sure.


Well It is 2021.


----------



## bcowen

Bennera513 said:


> Hey everyone,...I've been struggling to figure out a good way to store my growing tube collection.  Whenever I get into a the mood to roll some tubes I end up with tubes tossed all over the room and it takes a couple hours to get them all sorted and back into their boxes.  So, this foam test tube holder from Polar Whale, available on Amazon originally had holes for 25, 30 and 40mm tubes.  I sawed off the 25's and it turns out the 30mm holes are perfect for 6080/7236 power tubes.  The 40mm holes are perfect for 6sn7 and variants (exception being my Melz tube, it's a fatty).  I might look into building a box of some sort around this to make a display case.  Ideally I'd have the tubes upright so I show them off, but this works as a quick and dirty solution.  Only problem is identifying them from their bottoms.... How do you guys showcase your tubes?


I keep most of the smaller tubes in tubs that slide under the bed.  Big fail as a showcase though...most visitors aren't in the habit of looking under the bed.


----------



## Bennera513

bcowen said:


> I keep most of the smaller tubes in tubs that slide under the bed.  Big fail as a showcase though...most visitors aren't in the habit of looking under the bed.


Whoa!  There's something worse than childhood monsters lurking under your bed.  LOL.  Still I'm impressed by the organization.  And yea, people ought not be looking under the bed..


----------



## jonathan c

Bennera513 said:


> Whoa!  There's something worse than childhood monsters lurking under your bed.


Those would be the GE tubes that you can clearly see…😳😩👹😈…


----------



## whirlwind (Dec 10, 2021)

Boxes and tubes work well for me also.






There are a few GE boxes in my left tote...that is enough 42EC4/PY500 tubes to last a few lifetimes...lol


----------



## CaptainFantastic

I understood that, especially with quite old tubes, it's best to store them vertically. If we're thinking long-term care, of course. 

<ducks and runs out of the room>


----------



## whirlwind (Dec 10, 2021)

CaptainFantastic said:


> I understood that, especially with quite old tubes, it's best to store them vertically. If we're thinking long-term care, of course.
> 
> <ducks and runs out of the room>



Could be.....this works for me

In my dads tv shop they were mostly stored on their side....guess I never really thought about it to much.

I guess grid wires could sag depending on how the tube was in the box


----------



## Bennera513

CaptainFantastic said:


> I understood that, especially with quite old tubes, it's best to store them vertically. If we're thinking long-term care, of course.
> 
> <ducks and runs out of the room>


Makes sense I suppose.  I wondered about storing them vertical, but upside down.  Wonder if that orientation could introduce gravity effects not desired.  Though some were engineered for flight (in missiles?) I don't guess they were meant to spend their life in some of those unusual positions?


----------



## Marutks

I have got this Marconi B65 tube.










Why does it have "foreign made" label on it?    Is it fake?     I plugged it into my amp and it sounds fine.


----------



## cddc

Marutks said:


> I have got this Marconi B65 tube.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Foreign means this tube was made in some foreign country instead of British.

The print on the front seems legit, but the B65 print on the back seems hand-printed. So unfortunately this is a fake B65.


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> I understood that, especially with quite old tubes, it's best to store them vertically. If we're thinking long-term care, of course.
> 
> <ducks and runs out of the room>



But if you store them upside down, they are likely to be a little dizzy for awhile. But if you give them time to warm up and reorient themselves, they will be fine.   lol


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> Foreign means this tube was made in some foreign country instead of British.
> 
> The print on the front seems legit, but the B65 print on the back seems hand-printed. So unfortunately this is a fake B65.



I wouldn't go so far as to call it fake. Sourcing tubes from other manufacturers and relabeling them was very common back in the day. This appears to be a Fivre 6SN7. And I often see these Fivres relabeled as B65 by Marconi.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to call it fake. Sourcing tubes from other manufacturers and relabeling them was very common back in the day. This appears to be a Fivre 6SN7. And I often see these Fivres relabeled as B65 by Marconi.



What I mean by fake is that  this is not a REAL B65, and that's what the question was asking about. It is not a real B65. So it's a fake.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to call it fake. Sourcing tubes from other manufacturers and relabeling them was very common back in the day. This appears to be a Fivre 6SN7. And I often see these Fivres relabeled as B65 by Marconi.



Is this a Marconi B65? At least this was its description on Mullard Magic. I quite like it...


----------



## gibosi (Dec 10, 2021)

cddc said:


> What I mean by fake is that  this is not a REAL B65, and that's what the question was asking about. It is not a real B65. So it's a fake.



"Fake" has a nefarious connotation. Sourcing tubes from other manufacturers was common practice and it was certainly not nefarious.

But yes, if someone wants a B65 manufactured by Marconi, it would be wise to learn how to recognize Marconi construction versus Fivre.


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Is this a Marconi B65? At least this was its description on Mullard Magic. I quite like it...



I believe that this is a later version, but I can't say for sure. My B65's are the older ones with umbrella spikes descending down from a top round mica spacer.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> "Fake" has a nefarious connotation. Sourcing tubes from other manufacturers was common practice and it was certainly not nefarious.
> 
> But yes, if someone wants a B65 manufactured by Marconi, it would be wise to learn to learn how recognize Marconic construction versus Fivre.



So you wanna call it a real B65 or a rebranded B65? Is it what the OP asking for?

You wanna play games of wording?


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> I believe that this is a later version, but I can't say for sure. My B65's are the older ones with umbrella spikes descending down from a top round mica spacer.




You are so wrong. This is not a later version B65!!!

This is an RCA rebrand or a Holland rebrand.


----------



## Renexx

They  look like my Philips tubes but they are not warm tubes...kind of neutral sounding


----------



## gibosi

If you are looking for a clear-glass Marconi-made B65, my recommendation is look for the "umbrella" spokes descending down from the circular top mica. There may have been a later version without the spokes, but I do not know what it looks like.

And even though this is labeled CV1988, the Z tells us that this is a GEC B65 made in their Hammersmith plant in London.


----------



## lumdicks

A newcomer here and I have just got these 2 pairs of B65. Just wonder what is the meaning of 'Q' in the MWT one? The one with disc getter and Macroni stamp should be an older and better one?


----------



## TLO

lumdicks said:


> A newcomer here and I have just got these 2 pairs of B65. Just wonder what is the meaning of 'Q' in the MWT one? The one with disc getter and Macroni stamp should be an older and better one?


Cant comment on which one is better but in general, the shape of the getter determines the period of manufacturing as follow:
(From early to later)
1. Pan / disc getter (not to be confused with later Russian disc getter)
2. D getter
3. Rectangular getter
4. Halo getter


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Cant comment on which one is better but in general, the shape of the getter determines the period of manufacturing as follow:
> (From early to later)
> 1. Pan / disc getter (not to be confused with later Russian disc getter)
> 2. D getter
> ...


Where do foil and horseshoe getters fall?  I’m guessing the foil type may even predate the pan style, and the horseshoe immediately precedes the D getter, but that’s just a guess at best.


----------



## TLO (Dec 11, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Where do foil and horseshoe getters fall?  I’m guessing the foil type may even predate the pan style, and the horseshoe immediately precedes the D getter, but that’s just a guess at best.


Oh yeah, forgot about foil and horseshoe...thanks for the reminder. I would be guessing foil before pan and horseshoe somewhere between D and rectangular too. Actually, there is also a square getter... I guess they are considered as rectangular.


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> Oh yeah, forgot about foil and horseshoe...thanks for the reminder. I would be guessing foil before pan and horseshoe somewhere between D and rectangular too. Actually, there is also a square getter... I guess they are considered as rectangular.


Then with some of the Russian tubes, e.g. Foton and Novosibirsk 6N6P, there are the ‘flying saucer’ getter (holders).


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> Oh yeah, forgot about foil and horseshoe...thanks for the reminder. I would be guessing foil before pan and horseshoe somewhere between D and rectangular too. Actually, there is also a square getter... I guess they are considered as rectangular.


I guess that the ultimate would be a figure-8 or infinity ♾ getter…🤔❓😏…


----------



## bcowen (Dec 11, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Then with some of the Russian tubes, e.g. Foton and Novosibirsk 6N6P, there are the ‘flying saucer’ getter (holders).


Ye olde UFO getter.   They seem to be pretty ubiquitous with most every Russian tube made since the '60's (and before that too, just not so universally), and an (almost) surefire way to tell when rebranded tubes were sourced from Russian manufacturers....like these:


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Ye olde UFO getter.   They seem to be pretty ubiquitous with most every Russian tube made since the '60's (and before that too, just not so universally), and an (almost) surefire way to tell when rebranded tubes were sourced from Russian manufacturers....like these:


…made in UKSR…?🤪


----------



## lumdicks

bcowen said:


> Ye olde UFO getter.   They seem to be pretty ubiquitous with most every Russian tube made since the '60's (and before that too, just not so universally), and an (almost) surefire way to tell when rebranded tubes were sourced from Russian manufacturers....like these:





Just like this one.


----------



## TLO

Technically, does anyone know the actual reason for the changes in the getter design?


----------



## bcowen

lumdicks said:


> Just like this one.


Yup, _exactly_ like that.


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Technically, does anyone know the actual reason for the changes in the getter design?


Know for sure?  No, I don't.  But I'm assuming it had to do with manufacturing cost and efficiency.  Many of the D-getters and those prior (from your list) were a 2-step process where the getter holder was welded to the support rod. Most rectangular and square getters were formed from one piece and didn't need that welding step.  Most O getters I've seen are welded to the support post, but the O itself was likely stamped rather than formed saving more in cost than the extra welding step consumed.  Less metal in the horseshoes and after than the pan type (may seem trivial until you add up that metal weight across millions of tubes). And D's, rectangles and squares are easier to form than horseshoes.  Again this is all just assumption on my part, but being a manufacturing guy for most of my career I can see potential efficiency gains and cost savings with each variation along the way.


----------



## lumdicks

bcowen said:


> Yup, _exactly_ like that.





How about this one? Taken from Mullard ECC32 and we call it 'lunch box' getter in the circle of tube enthusiast in Hong Kong.


----------



## bcowen

lumdicks said:


> How about this one? Taken from Mullard ECC32 and we call it 'lunch box' getter in the circle of tube enthusiast in Hong Kong.


That's totally cool.  I've honestly never seen one exactly like that before!  It's stamped, but I have no clue where it might fall in getter lineage.


----------



## TLO (Dec 12, 2021)

lumdicks said:


> How about this one? Taken from Mullard ECC32 and we call it 'lunch box' getter in the circle of tube enthusiast in Hong Kong.


This is regularly called pan by most ppl, but sometime tray. Most earlier Mullard ECC series have pan getter.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Know for sure?  No, I don't.  But I'm assuming it had to do with manufacturing cost and efficiency.  Many of the D-getters and those prior (from your list) were a 2-step process where the getter holder was welded to the support rod. Most rectangular and square getters were formed from one piece and didn't need that welding step.  Most O getters I've seen are welded to the support post, but the O itself was likely stamped rather than formed saving more in cost than the extra welding step consumed.  Less metal in the horseshoes and after than the pan type (may seem trivial until you add up that metal weight across millions of tubes). And D's, rectangles and squares are easier to form than horseshoes.  Again this is all just assumption on my part, but being a manufacturing guy for most of my career I can see potential efficiency gains and cost savings with each variation along the way.



Yes, halo getters were cheaper and easier to make. And as a plus, it was easier to aim, or control, the getter splash. As you might imagine, if the getter splash shorts out elements when it splashes onto the top mica, the tube will likely be defective. Especially with top halo getters, notice that the getter splash is typically concentrated at the top and the line delineating where the splash stops and the clear glass begins is sharply defined. Since it advanced the art and reduced costs, the halo getter was a win.


----------



## dakchi

Hi,
I need your help to find a pair of 6SN7 tubes for my amplifier LM-508. I'm looking for warm sounding tubes without being too dark. My budget is max 200$ for the pair. Any recommendation please?
Many thanks for your help


----------



## LoryWiv

I can't speak to your amp. but in general, RCA 6SN&'s are warm, as are British mead tubes (eg - GEC). If by "warm" you really mean strong bass but not overall warm tonality, Ken-Rad VT-231 may fit the bill.


----------



## dakchi

LoryWiv said:


> I can't speak to your amp. but in general, RCA 6SN&'s are warm, as are British mead tubes (eg - GEC). If by "warm" you really mean strong bass but not overall warm tonality, Ken-Rad VT-231 may fit the bill.


Thank you for your reply. Yes I do mean overall warm. I like bass but the transition should be smooth to the mids. I don't like it when the bass is separated from the music and very boomy and slow that it overlaps with the mids. Which of Ken-rad or RCA would be the best option for me?
I also found good reviews of WESTINGHOUSE 6SN7GTB*. *Are these any good? how do they sound? apparently, there are 2 versions: one with tall bottle and one with normal bottle


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,

I have ordered the Westinghouse, but I don't know when they will arrive so I can't say more.
A colleague bought some and thought they were not bad on his headphone amplifier.
Alternatively you could try the Tung sol from the new production they are not expensive as well as the Linlai Hifi if you have room for them are also not affordable.
Hitachi Gtb is also not necessarily wrong.


----------



## gibosi

dakchi said:


> Hi,
> I need your help to find a pair of 6SN7 tubes for my amplifier LM-508. I'm looking for warm sounding tubes without being too dark. My budget is max 200$ for the pair. Any recommendation please?
> Many thanks for your help



It's important to remember that everyone has different ears and different gear. So a tube that I consider to be "warm sounding tube without being too dark" might not sound good to you.

That said, for old-stock (not new production) tubes, I suggest you spend some time checking out the 6SN7 Reference thread.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread

Good luck!


----------



## LoryWiv

LoryWiv said:


> I can't speak to your amp. but in general, RCA 6SN7's are warm, as are British mead tubes (eg - GEC). If by "warm" you really mean strong bass but not overall warm tonality, Ken-Rad VT-231 may fit the bill.


I think RCA VT-231 or Ken-Rad VT-231 would be of interest to you, and agree with @gibosi that the reference tread he links is worth reading.


----------



## JTbbb

dakchi said:


> Hi,
> I need your help to find a pair of 6SN7 tubes for my amplifier LM-508. I'm looking for warm sounding tubes without being too dark. My budget is max 200$ for the pair. Any recommendation please?
> Many thanks for your help


I have these that might interest you. The Red base would be around your budget. The Brown base under. These have a reputation for warmth. PM if interested.

RCA-JAN-CRC-5692 red base
CBS-JAN-CHY-5692 brown base


----------



## Ranger Ron

dakchi said:


> Hi,
> I need your help to find a pair of 6SN7 tubes for my amplifier LM-508. I'm looking for warm sounding tubes without being too dark. My budget is max 200$ for the pair. Any recommendation please?
> Many thanks for your help


What about going the 6F8G route? Adapters are relatively cheap, the tubes sound fantastic. Just a thought. The RCA and National Union tubes are wonderful.


----------



## DangerDan (Jan 14, 2022)

New to Tubes, today in the mail:

PS-6SN7-HIFI - no "burn in", just fresh installed - no complaints...


----------



## Renexx

I'm interested in a pair of B65. Seems like a later version with cup getter and Timecode of J5.

Anybody has an impression of the sound of these ? 
Do earlier versions with metal base sound better since they are double the price ?


----------



## attmci

Renexx said:


> I'm interested in a pair of B65. Seems like a later version with cup getter and Timecode of J5.
> 
> Anybody has an impression of the sound of these ?
> Do earlier versions with metal base sound better since they are double the price ?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/3138287698...55-0&campid=5338722076&customid=&toolid=10050


----------



## LoryWiv

Renexx said:


> I'm interested in a pair of B65. Seems like a later version with cup getter and Timecode of J5.
> 
> Anybody has an impression of the sound of these ?
> Do earlier versions with metal base sound better since they are double the price ?


How does a B65 differ from 6SN7?


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> How does a B65 differ from 6SN7?



According to the Radio Museum, they are identical.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_b65.html

It appears that GEC preferred to use their own trademarked names within Britain. In the same way, an A1834 is a 6AS7G, a U52 is a 5U4G and a B36 is a 12SN7.


----------



## hmscott (Jan 19, 2022)

Given the choice between a "NIB" RCA Redbase Orange Label 5692 or a Zalytron brown base 5692, both with top measurements 3000gm/18,000mA, both around $150-$175, which one should I try first?   Or should I keep looking for a brown base 5692 labeled as CBS Hytron?


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> Given the choice between a "NIB" RCA Redbase Orange Label 5692 or a Zalytron brown base 5692, both with top measurements 3000gm/18,000mA, both around $150-$175, which one should I try first?   Or should I keep looking for a brown base 5692 labeled as CBS Hytron?



Assuming both tubes are otherwise identical, the label has no affect on the sound.


----------



## Ripper2860

While labels have no sonic benefit, a red base sounds better than brown one, so I would go with the RCA.  Even @gibosi would have to agree since he only mentioned the labels.


----------



## gibosi

Ripper2860 said:


> While labels have no sonic benefit, a red base sounds better than brown one, so I would go with the RCA.  Even @gibosi would have to agree since he only mentioned the labels.



I think someone might be pulling my leg?  lol  

But in general I would not agree that the color of the base has any affect on the sound. Once the glass bottle has been evacuated, it doesn't matter which base the bottle is mounted in. That said, if the red base and the brown base indicate different factories, or the same factory but at different times, there may well be a sonic difference.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
The colour of the base has zero influence on anything.
If anything would be decisive, it would be the pins if they were gold-plated, which is what you find with small tubes these days.
The Lm Ecrisson 403 was an example of this.
It's really good.
Or the Linlai elite 6Sn7 has gold pins.
Everything else that people try to make credible today that is new is a lie.
There have been tubes with blue glass, chrome coatings or very dark coatings before.
There is nothing innovative behind it.

The only thing I would say that is better today is gold-plated pins and coatings, which are probably technologically better today than they were then.

What is a pity today, given the change of times, is that the tubes from the new production do not come close to 100% of what was made back then.
Which is really strange because today we have seen machines that are even more accurate than back then.
Probably it is simply due to the craftsmanship and dexterity that people had back then.


----------



## gibosi

IMHO, the only thing gold pins get you is corrosion resistance, which is certainly a good thing for tubes plugged into sockets for years on end. But otherwise, gold pins have no affect on the sonics.


----------



## jonathan c

gibosi said:


> I think someone might be pulling my leg?  lol
> 
> But in general I would not agree that the color of the base has any affect on the sound. Once the glass bottle has been evacuated, it doesn't matter which base the bottle is mounted in. That said, if the red base and the brown base indicate different factories, or the same factory but at different times, there may well be a sonic difference.


You mean that base =/= bass ? 😳😱🙁😭…


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 19, 2022)

gibosi said:


> I think someone might be pulling my leg?  lol
> 
> But in general I would not agree that the color of the base has any affect on the sound. Once the glass bottle has been evacuated, it doesn't matter which base the bottle is mounted in. That said, if the red base and the brown base indicate different factories, or the same factory but at different times, there may well be a sonic difference.





Deleeh said:


> The colour of the base has zero influence on anything.




Geez folks.  I was KIDDING!!!   That's why I used the 'smirk'    emoji.    


Tube base and label color don't mean a thing.  Tube MFG and construction are where the differences are, assuming they measure closely.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 8, 2022)

All very interesting observations and comments 

I'm going to go with the best measurements vs price. The choices are all coming from the same seller so all are relative measurements from the same test equipment, using the same operator, should give a good relative comparison.  These are all 50's built RCA 5692 tubes, none are 1960's -> GE made.

BTW, I've gotten a bunch of great offers from eBay sellers by placing a bunch of tubes in my Cart on eBay, and waiting - kinda like fishing, waiting for some percentage of sellers to make a lower priced offer.

I'm looking forward to comparing the 5692 sound, and I'll keep searching for other interesting 6SN7 variants.  The two VT-231's 6SN7GT tubes I've aquired turned out to have the same date code - even though I bought from 2 different sellers - and both sound great.  The Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Tallboy sound appeals to me a bit more, until I swap one of the VT231's back in again!

Perhaps I'll find my cache of tubes for my Xduoo TA-26 quickly, since so many tubes share a common manufacturer for each unique design?... nah!


----------



## TLO

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> The colour of the base has zero influence on anything.
> If anything would be decisive, it would be the pins if they were gold-plated, which is what you find with small tubes these days.
> The Lm Ecrisson 403 was an example of this.
> ...


You have overlooked on the raw material used in the old days compared to today's new tubes. That is one of major differences which contributes to the sonic, imo.


----------



## ostewart (Feb 8, 2022)

Got the Xduoo TA-26 - wondering if anyone knows if the below is similar to the Sylvania 6SN7WGT - of if they have seen these before? (Made in Canada, Rogers branded 6SN7GT)

Mainly the Umbrella spokes are similar to the Sylvania


----------



## Ranger Ron

ostewart said:


> Got the Xduoo TA-26 - wondering if anyone knows if the below is similar to the Sylvania 6SN7WGT - of if they have seen these before? (Made in Canada, Rogers branded 6SN7GT)
> 
> Mainly the Umbrella spokes are similar to the





ostewart said:


> Got the Xduoo TA-26 - wondering if anyone knows if the below is similar to the Sylvania 6SN7WGT - of if they have seen these before? (Made in Canada, Rogers branded 6SN7GT)
> 
> Mainly the Umbrella spokes are similar to the


I have a pair of these. I’m my opinion they sound very similar.


----------



## attmci (Feb 16, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> While labels have no sonic benefit, a red base sounds better than brown one, so I would go with the RCA.  Even @gibosi would have to agree since he only mentioned the labels.


The best of the best are those red-brown ones. LOL.

These are very rare. If you can't find a pair, try to use one red and one brown on each channel. Just my 3c.


----------



## ChrisPDX

rosgr63 said:


> The Tung-Sol "Mouse Ears" are more neutral and a wonderful tube to have.
> 
> They were all made by Tung-Sol as far as I know.
> *  Make sure they have the same type plates grey or black.*


@rosgr63 I am curious upon what basis you emphasized the importance of T-S "Mouse Ears" plates being the same color, grey or black? I have a mixed pair en route. On the first page of the 6SN7 Reference Thread, any difference between the grey and black plates isn't mentioned (see red below):


adhoc said:


> *Tung-Sol White Label 6SN7GT (1940-50s vintage) [PHOTO HERE]*
> _[made between 1948 and 1956. structure is completely different from the abovementioned Round Plate GTs - these have grey 'T'-plates and a bottom getter. rectangular getter holder. tall bottle with black bases and white labels. these resemble GTBs (the next tube below) except for the bottom getter.]_
> ● “Concurrently with the last days of the TS R-P there was a version with regular ribbed plates - *that could have been grey OR black*, and has the notorious round side mica spacers termed "mouse ears". A very, very good sounding tube. There was a later version that squared ofc those ears - still the same tube, then they dropped the ears all together and the plates were always grey - still a super sounding tube. But it's not commonly found, and unless it has the mouse ears, people often mistake it for Russian - good for me, I love the tube and pick 'em up at dirrt cheap prices and get better performance that most of the big buck stuff.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)


Thanks in advance for sharing your insights on this.


----------



## Renexx

Can you guys help me with these tubes? I never saw like these before.

They were produced by MLBE in Belgium for German army.

Are these worth a high asking price? Does anyone know how they sound?


----------



## hmscott (Mar 30, 2022)

I would also like to hear of others experience with the CV1988  

What was the asking price for the Valvo CV1988's?

I was looking at these myself, from a different listing: SKU: 42-1202 - $225.00
https://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/product/british-cv1988/

"British CV1988 - Description
British CV1988 6SN7GT One of the best quality 6SN7GT tubes available! These amazing military spec tubes, various brandings, are known for their amazing soundstage, extended dynamic range, and attention to detail. Produced in the 1950’s these vintage British made tubes were actually tested and sealed for the military in 1964 until we opened them this year! If you are an _audiophile_, you owe it to yourself to pick up a pair of these NOS tubes at an amazing price! This is a suitable replacement for any 6SN7 tube type. Various brands available."

There are also several CV1988 mentions in our local "The 6SN7 Reference thread", post 1:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-1380036


----------



## gibosi

British-made CV1988 were manufactured by Brimar. Valvo never made a 6SN7/CV1988. But sometimes they did sell a 6SN7 manufactured by Philips, either at Eindoven or MBLE Bruxelles.


----------



## Renexx

hmscott said:


> What was the asking price for the Valvo CV1988's?


900$ ..not worth it for Belgium tubes soundwise but might be quite rare for collectors.


----------



## attmci

Renexx said:


> 900$ ..not worth it for Belgium tubes soundwise but might be quite rare for collectors.


$900? Wow.


----------



## DenverW

Not even Remotely close to being worth it at that price.  Some tube sellers are just silly.


----------



## jonathan c

DenverW said:


> Not even Remotely close to being worth it at that price.  Some tube sellers are just silly.


…some tube buyers are even more so…


----------



## DenverW

jonathan c said:


> …some tube buyers are even more so…


Well, when your tube costs the same as a decent amp...ya!


----------



## JTbbb

Maybe there is not enough to see but, could this be a real B65?


----------



## lumdicks (Apr 20, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Maybe there is not enough to see but, could this be a real B65?


Yes it is. I have a pair with the same structure.


----------



## Bonddam

Just switched to c3g in my 6sn7 sockets on WA5 LE gen 2 and what a difference. They are more transparent and vivid sounding.


----------



## hmscott (Apr 30, 2022)

Bonddam said:


> Just switched to c3g in my 6sn7 sockets on WA5 LE gen 2 and what a difference. They are more transparent and vivid sounding.


Where did you find them?  Did you need to do anything to the circuit to adapt the C3G?  Did you remove the metal encasement? Have you considered the C3M?

I was reading about the C3G and C3M a few days ago, they seemed like a good listen, but I was unsure if they needed a converter to use them in my Xduoo TA-26.

$99 here for the C3G and $69 for the C3M they aren't too expensive:
https://www.tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/c3g-c3m
Few c3g/c3m on eBay US site, so I tried the www.eBay.co.uk :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=c3g+tube&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=c3g&_osacat=0
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=c3m+tube&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=c3g+tube&_osacat=0

Thank you for posting about them 

*Update:* In Germany there are far more C3M's listed, www.eBay.de :
https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_nkw=c3m+röhre
https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_nkw=c3g+röhre


----------



## Bonddam

hmscott said:


> Where did you find them?  Did you need to do anything to the circuit to adapt the C3G?  Did you remove the metal encasement? Have you considered the C3M?
> 
> I was reading about the C3G and C3M a few days ago, they seemed like a good listen, but I was unsure if they needed a converter to use them in my Xduoo TA-26.
> 
> ...


If your amp is 6sn7 than buy the tubes and adapters. If your amp is thick and warm this would be 180. Research showed the tube was for phone so clarity would be design. On my WA5 LE detail transparency come through with a lot of definition. Swapping back to 6sn7 I gain back warm sound. My 300B add some warmth back. So try it out but be ready for cold sound.


----------



## gibosi

The proper bias for a C3g is quite different than that for a 6SN7. That said, most people running C3g in 6SN7 sockets seem to be very pleased with what they are hearing. (My amp can run the C3g natively, so I can't say how they sound in a 6SN7 socket.)

The C3g was manufactured by Siemens, Telefunken and Lorenz, only. Valvo never made it. Further, all C3g with shiny black cans and white silkscreened logos and text were manufactured by Siemens. I would guess these were manufactured around 1970 and later. In the 1960's and earlier, Telefunken and Lorenz also made the C3g and the cans are flat black with text and logos embossed on the top of the tube.



To my ears, the Telefunken and Siemens sound very similar, and therefore, I wouldn't encourage anyone to chase after the Telefunkens, unless you can get them cheap. However, the Lorenz sound much different, darker and warmer.





Have fun!


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Bonddam said:


> If your amp is 6sn7 than buy the tubes and adapters. If your amp is thick and warm this would be 180. Research showed the tube was for phone so clarity would be design. On my WA5 LE detail transparency come through with a lot of definition. Swapping back to 6sn7 I gain back warm sound. My 300B add some warmth back. So try it out but be ready for cold sound.



So these need a C3G to 6SN7 adapter? It doesn't look like they are readily available on eBay. Is it something for Deyan?


----------



## hmscott (Apr 30, 2022)

I didn't realize it took 2 C3G's to 1 6SN7 socket, here is the adapter I found - I've also asked them if 2 C3M's would work in this adapter:

1pc Gold plated Dual C3G Instead 6SN7 6N8P B65 tube converter adapter
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201983764783



@gibosi - Is that how your amp in the photo with the 2 - C3G's works - either those 2 sockets are filled with C3G's or the single empty socket hosts the 6SN7?  Can that amp use C3M's as well?

Update: @JazzVinyl reminded me that the C3M uses 20V heater voltage - that must be why there are so many C3M's up for sale vs C3G's.


----------



## JazzVinyl

hmscott said:


> I didn't realize it took 2 C3G's to 1 6SN7 socket, here is the adapter I found - I've also asked them if 2 C3M's would work in this adapter:
> 
> 1pc Gold plated Dual C3G Instead 6SN7 6N8P B65 tube converter adapter
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/201983764783
> ...



C3M uses 20 volts to heat the heater...

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/009/c/C3m.pdf


----------



## hmscott (Apr 30, 2022)

JazzVinyl said:


> C3M uses 20 volts to heat the heater...
> 
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/009/c/C3m.pdf


Ah, that's right, I remember reading that, thanks 

That must be why there are so many 20V Heater C3M's up for sale vs. 6.3V heater C3G's in Germany.
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheetsC.html
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/128/c/C3g.pdf - Telefunken
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/062/c/C3g.pdf - Lorenz
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/190/c/C3g.pdf - Siemans


----------



## JazzVinyl

I personally never heard the C3g sound better than they did in the Little Dot MK IV - a 'metallic ring' to the highs in other amps.


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> Is that how your amp in the photo with the 2 - C3G's works - either those 2 sockets are filled with C3G's or the single empty socket hosts the 6SN7? Can that amp use C3M's as well?



Yes, I can run either two C3g or one 6SN7. Plus there's a switch in the back to allow the use of 12SN7 and 25SN7.

And in the C3g sockets, with adapters, I can also run EL3N, EL41 and other similar pentodes


----------



## hmscott (Apr 30, 2022)

gibosi said:


> Yes, I can run either two C3g or one 6SN7. Plus there's a switch in the back to allow the use of 12SN7 and 25SN7.
> 
> And in the C3g sockets, with adapters, I can also run EL3N, EL41 and other similar pentodes


Wow, that is really flexible, who makes that amp?  Model?  URL to order? 

25SN7, I've never even heard of that variation.


----------



## hmscott

JazzVinyl said:


> I personally never heard the C3g sound better than they did in the Little Dot MK IV - a 'metallic ring' to the highs in other amps.


What adapter(s) did you use for the C3G in the Little Dot MK IV, or other amps?


----------



## gibosi

JazzVinyl said:


> I personally never heard the C3g sound better than they did in the Little Dot MK IV - a 'metallic ring' to the highs in other amps.



This is likely because the correct bias for a C3g is pretty close to that of a 6AK5. The C3g sounded great in my LD 1+ too, and this was the reason I asked Glenn to add C3g sockets to my OTL.


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> Wow, that is really flexible, who makes that amp?  Model?  URL to order?
> 
> 25SN7, I've never even heard of that variation.



It was custom made by Glenn. So a custom Glenn OTL. However, I believe that he has retired from building amps....  

Ken Rad and RCA made the 252N7, labeled as a 1633. And Brimar made one too, labeled as a 13D1. I don't know of any others.


----------



## musicman59

Here are the Woo adapters C3G to 6SN7. Notice that for some reason the adapters are specific to each channel. 

These are the ones I used in my WA5-LE v1 when I had it.


----------



## JazzVinyl

hmscott said:


> What adapter(s) did you use for the C3G in the Little Dot MK IV, or other amps?


There is one made for the LD MK IV driver->C3g

By the same person you linked to for the 6sn7 to C3g….


----------



## Bonddam (Apr 30, 2022)

I bought mine in classifieds. Adapters I have are for WA5. The tube is different pantoid not dual triode so socket on the amp is only using one side with c3g.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Bonddam said:


> I bought mine in classifieds. Adapters I have are for WA5. The tube is different pantoid not dual triode so socket on the amp is only using one side with c3g.



Think this is the one for the Little Dot MKIV 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/201366974329

Need 2 of them in the MK IV


----------



## Bonddam

So far love the c3g over the 6sn7 with 300B tube amp. I'm hoping Jack Wu will make me Woo adapters. I'm currently using adapters for left and right but the Woo ones are way better quality. The c3g does so much to the sound it quiets the noise floor and brings out transparency not there before and it sounds so effortless. It makes my 6sn7 Ken Rad $400 CRK VT231 sound alright. I purchased more c3g to keep on hand. I still like my 6sn7 collection but maybe 300B like the c3g better.


----------



## Lickumms

I am looking for a new pair of 6SN7 style tubes for my TorAudio Balanced AMP. Currently it uses a matched pair of 6N8S but one of the tubes went bad so there is a lot of noise coming from the amp.

I am looking at getting one of the PSVANE Globe style 6SN7 pairs to replace the stock russian tubes. Like the 6SN7-SE(Black), CV181-SE, COSSOR 6SN7, 6SN7-BE. 
The other option I was looking into is the Linlai E-6SN7.

Has anyone tried any of these tubes?


----------



## Renexx

Lickumms said:


> I am looking for a new pair of 6SN7 style tubes for my TorAudio Balanced AMP. Currently it uses a matched pair of 6N8S but one of the tubes went bad so there is a lot of noise coming from the amp.
> 
> I am looking at getting one of the PSVANE Globe style 6SN7 pairs to replace the stock russian tubes. Like the 6SN7-SE(Black), CV181-SE, COSSOR 6SN7, 6SN7-BE.
> The other option I was looking into is the Linlai E-6SN7.
> ...


I'm very disappointed with the psvane gold socket stock tubes for my Euphoria amp. They are not worth the money, they only look good.

Get yourself a nice set of NOS 6sn7gt tubes and treat your amp with it.


----------



## Lickumms (May 17, 2022)

Renexx said:


> I'm very disappointed with the psvane gold socket stock tubes for my Euphoria amp. They are not worth the money, they only look good.
> 
> Get yourself a nice set of NOS 6sn7gt tubes and treat your amp with it.


Which PSVANE did you try? Like a Sovtek or an actually NOS pair of 6sn7gt?


----------



## Renexx (May 17, 2022)

Lickumms said:


> Which PSVANE did you try? Like a Sovtek or an actually NOS pair of 6sn7gt?


https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/psvane-cv181-t-mii/2/6sn7gt-gemachtes-paar
These sound just plain boring. For the price you can buy a nice pair of Sylvania vt-231 or a Sylvania 6sn7w. Many choices and you will enjoy them all. Just don't buy 6sn7gtb tubes, those will dissapoint.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/28478285346...XBXD7pgQWm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
or
https://www.ebay.de/itm/28478286870...XBXD7pgQWm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


----------



## Lickumms

Renexx said:


> https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/psvane-cv181-t-mii/2/6sn7gt-gemachtes-paar
> These sound just plain boring. For the price you can buy a nice pair of Sylvania vt-231 or a Sylvania 6sn7w for the same price. Many choices and you will enjoy them all. Just don't buy 6sn7gtb tubes, those will dissapoint.
> 
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/28478285346...XBXD7pgQWm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> ...


I own a matched pair, 3 hole version, of the Sylvania 6sn7gt


----------



## Renexx (May 17, 2022)

Lickumms said:


> I own a matched pair, 3 hole version, of the Sylvania 6sn7gt


 You mean  a pair of Sylvania 53' bad Boys ? They sound different to the ones mentioned by me before.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/28479865128...XBXD7pgQWm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Like these?
These a superb tubes. More punchy and bold sounding than very neutral 6sn7w and the airy warm sounding vt-231.

Your prepared well for your TOR amp with a nice pair of tubes like that.
Don't waste money on Chinese or russian new product tubes.


----------



## Lickumms (May 17, 2022)

Renexx said:


> You mean  a pair of Sylvania 53' bad Boys ? They sound different to the ones mentioned by me before.
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/28479865128...XBXD7pgQWm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> Like these?
> These a superb tubes. More punchy and bold sounding than very neutral 6sn7w and the airy warm sounding vt-231.


I think so. Here is a picture of them. Only 1 is labeled as a Sylvania an the other 2 were bought probably 10 years ago in a lot that listed them as Bad Boys.


----------



## Lickumms (May 17, 2022)

I also own 3 Ken-Rad Vt-231 that I don't know how to test to find a matched pair.

I own a bottlehead crack. Would it be possible to plug each KEn-Rad into that and test a voltage output on the headphone plug to find a matched pair in the Ken-Rads?


----------



## Renexx

Many sellers label their Sylvania tubes as "bad boys" these days. They were only made a few weeks/months in start of 1953' so quite rare. I can't tell if 2holes versions sound the same.
I have a Sylvania chrome domes pair that sounds exactly like Sylvania vt-231.

To measure your tubes you can ask your local vintage Radio Store. They useally have a tube tester and provide that service.
You don't need a matched pair if your tor amp has an auto bias function.

There is no date code on your Sylvania tubes ?


----------



## Lickumms (May 17, 2022)

Renexx said:


> Many sellers label their Sylvania tubes as "bad boys" these days. They were only made a few weeks/months in start of 1953' so quite rare. I can't tell if 2holes versions sound the same.
> I have a Sylvania chrome domes pair that sounds exactly like Sylvania vt-231.
> 
> To measure your tubes you can ask your local vintage Radio Store. They useally have a tube tester and provide that service.
> ...


Yes, there are date codes. The one is kinda hard to read. I'm fairly new to the 6sn7 tube game so I don't really know what the numbers mean. Getting the tubes tested iis kinda struggle for me since I live in the middle of nowhere on a farm. The closest tube tester i found near me is about 400miles away. Unless there is one in Winnipeg, I guess I could cross the border if there is one there then it would only be about 150 mile drive.


----------



## Renexx (May 17, 2022)

Lickumms said:


> Yes, there are date codes. The one is kinda hard to read. I'm fairly new to the 6sn7 tube game so I don't really know what the numbers mean.


312 might be the manufacturer s code in this case. Westinghouse did just relabel Sylvania and RCA tubes in that time period I think.

239 and 236 could be week 36/39 in 1952. 

Those tubes will sound better than any New production tubes you plan to buy.


----------



## Lickumms

Renexx said:


> 312 might be the factory code in this case.
> 
> 239 and 236 could be week 36/39 in 1952.
> 
> Those tubes will sound better than any New production tubes you plan to buy.


Okay, so too old to be Bad Boys. I believe the numbers on the one marked as Sylvania is maybe 5201


----------



## Renexx (May 17, 2022)

Lickumms said:


> Okay, so too old to be Bad Boys. I believe the numbers on the one marked as Sylvania is maybe 5201


No they can be genuine bad boys. They were made in late 52 aswell. I cannot tell the exact months.
The sound will tell you. VT -231 are a little bit shy in the bass and bad boys are more full bodied.


----------



## Lickumms

Renexx said:


> No they can be genuine bad boys. They were made in late 52 aswell. I cannot tell the exact months.
> The sound will tell you. VT -231 are a little bit shy in the bass and bad boys are more full bodied.


thanks for all the help! I will have to give them a burn in since they are NOS then see how they sound.


----------



## Renexx

Lickumms said:


> thanks for all the help! I will have to give them a burn in since they are NOS then see how they sound.


Don't worry they will sound great out of the box. Any possible improvement over time is just a benefit.


----------



## JTbbb

Lickumms said:


> I also own 3 Ken-Rad Vt-231 that I don't know how to test to find a matched pair.
> 
> I own a bottlehead crack. Would it be possible to plug each KEn-Rad into that and test a voltage output on the headphone plug to find a matched pair in the Ken-Rads?


Once you have plugged in any of your 6sn7’s in the crack to check for any pops or strange noises, just take a pair, like your proposed Ken Rads, and pop them in your amp that requires a pair. If it sounds balanced and good, your good to go!


----------



## Galapac

Here is the bad boy identifier I posted in another thread:

Post in thread 'Darkvoice 336i & 336SE Tuberolling PartII'
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16866686

…and the originator of the moniker.

Post in thread 'Darkvoice 336i & 336SE Tuberolling PartII'
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16866735


----------



## bcowen (May 17, 2022)

Lickumms said:


> Okay, so too old to be Bad Boys. I believe the numbers on the one marked as Sylvania is maybe 5201


.


----------



## Galapac

It’s not to say @Lickumms tubes aren’t bad, the bad boy moniker is just that, a name for a specific period of Sylvania tubes.
If his are older they may be a better quality tube if they have good readings.


----------



## gibosi

More information on "Bad Boys" (and lots of other 6SN7's) 

The 6SN7 Reference Thread

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

The 6SN7 Identification Guide

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## Lickumms (May 19, 2022)

Decided to test out the tubes I have and write a quick little comparison.

Tested using HD800s and TORBalanced. Compared to Audio-GD Master-9 Class A AMP.

Electro Harmonics 6SN7EH Gold Pins - Adds an airy spacious sound to music.  Boosts the sound stage size a little over Class A amp. Bass is very tight and fast but sligtly reduced in quantity. Adds, what might be heard as, a slight dryness to the music from how clean and sharp everything is represented. Maintains all highs with no rounding or dullness.

Shuguang CV181-Z(50 Years) Premium Grade - Sounds almost identical to a class A power amp. Adds the slight warmth of Class A power, compared to Class D, removes anything offensive from headphones and songs. If you want to know what a Class A power amp sounds like use these in your tube amp. Rounds out the occsional terrible peaks that can occurs with HD800s.

Sylvania 6sn7gt 3 hole "Bad Boy" - Adds warmth to sound. Slight reduction in sound stage creating a more intamite sound. Excellent boost in the impact, rumble, and power of the sub bass. A little boost in lower mids presence. Closest thing to what I would call a traditional "tube" sound.

Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass - Bass King. Greatly improves bass impact, power, and presence on all ranges without muddying it or losing any quality. No real noticeable change in sound stage. If bass is what you want this is the tube to go with. Warmer sound, almost dark, compared to the "Bad Boy". Slightly dulls out the higher end peaks.

After my initial listeing I would say, right now, the "Bad Boy" is my preferred tube.


----------



## TLO

Lickumms said:


> Decided to test out the tubes I have and write a quick little comparison.
> 
> Tested using HD800s and TORBalanced. Compared to Audio-GD Master-9 Class A AMP.
> 
> ...


Soon, you will find something even better than Bad Boy and before you know it, you have over 100 tubes...


----------



## Lickumms (May 20, 2022)

TLO said:


> Soon, you will find something even better than Bad Boy and before you know it, you have over 100 tubes...


That is a terrifying thought. Cause I have already ordered 3 more sets of tubes....


----------



## TLO

Lickumms said:


> That is a terrifying thought. Cause I have already ordered 3 more sets of tubes....


Trust me, you will end up more than a hundred tubes like most of us as you explore further....lol
It is a disease with no cure..


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Trust me, you will end up more than a hundred tubes like most of us as you explore further....lol
> It is a disease with no cure..


And after you stay at it long enough, you end up with a thousand.  Roughly.  And then one day you get some new tubes in the mail and you're all excited and stuff only to find that you already had 2 pairs of the exact same ones in the stash...


----------



## jonathan c

Lickumms said:


> Decided to test out the tubes I have and write a quick little comparison.
> 
> Tested using HD800s and TORBalanced. Compared to Audio-GD Master-9 Class A AMP.
> 
> ...


…the implications…🤩🙂😕😒💸🤩…


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> And after you stay at it long enough, you end up with a thousand.  Roughly.  And then one day you get some new tubes in the mail and you're all excited and stuff only to find that you already had 2 pairs of the exact same ones in the stash...


Is Tubaholic a word? 
I have accumulated almost 200 tubes just on one amp, imagine what will happen as I am still looking to try another two tube amps with different setup this autumn..


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> Is Tubaholic a word?
> I have accumulated almost 200 tubes just on one amp, imagine what will happen as I am still looking to try another two tube amps with different setup this autumn..


…autumn?…why wait?🤣…


----------



## TLO (May 21, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> …autumn?…why wait?🤣…


Going to redo my setup and most importantly, going to add a false ceiling with sound insulation in my listening room. Work schedule is still quite tight with high labor cost than normal due to long lockdown here. A lot of skilled workers are from across the border, Malaysia or even from China, we have serious shortage of labor in Singapore now. Dont feel like adding more components now before all is done. Yeah, I know, it is painful waiting...
If all goes well, I am looking to add a pre-amp, one or two tube amps and another pair of speakers.


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> Going to redo my setup and most importantly, going to add a false ceiling with sound insulation in my listening room. Work schedule is still quite tight with high labour cost than normal due to long lockdown here. A lot of skilled workers are from across the border, Malaysia or even from China, we have serious shortage of labour in Singapore now.


A golden opportunity for @bcowen! The word is that he is quite handy with a voltmeter and a sledgehammer….🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> And after you stay at it long enough, you end up with a thousand.  Roughly.  And then one day you get some new tubes in the mail and you're all excited and stuff only to find that you already had *20 *pairs of the exact same ones in the stash...


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021].


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021].


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> And after you stay at it long enough, you end up with a thousand.  Roughly.  And then one day you get some new tubes in the mail and you're all excited and stuff only to find that you already had 2 pairs of the exact same ones in the stash...


or worse you'll order tubes you have no use for because you ordered the wrong type or with the hope that you WILL USE them....someday.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> or worse you'll order tubes you have no use for because you ordered the wrong type or with the hope that you WILL USE them....someday.


LOL!  I'm still working on my time machine, but soon I'll be able to go into the future and see what tubes I'm using then. Just have to be careful not to go too far forward....it would kinda suck if I'm no longer around when I get there.


----------



## DougD

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'm still working on my time machine, but soon I'll be able to go into the future and see what tubes I'm using then. Just have to be careful not to go too far forward....it would kinda suck if I'm no longer around when I get there.



Seems reminiscent of a common story. Scrooge McTube visits the future to see how his famed tube collection has been dispersed by his family after his demise, finds kids at the local thrift shop using them for target practice on the back lot. Returns to his own time scared poopless, repents, and writes a proper will.


----------



## bcowen

DougD said:


> Seems reminiscent of a common story. Scrooge McTube visits the future to see how his famed tube collection has been dispersed by his family after his demise, finds kids at the local thrift shop using them for target practice on the back lot. Returns to his own time scared poopless, repents, and writes a proper will.


🤣🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c (May 24, 2022)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'm still working on my time machine, but soon I'll be able to go into the future and see what tubes I'm using then. Just have to be careful not to go too far forward....it would kinda suck if I'm no longer around when I get there.


Give your own eulogy?…🤪 “We come here to praise him, to access his Foton inventory…”😁😏…


----------



## gibosi

Well, unless your amp can run 25 volt tubes, this is likely not of much interest. This is a Ken Rad 1633, or more precisely, a 25SN7. I have been told that aircraft typically used two 12.6 volt batteries, providing about 25.2 volts, thus the need for a tube such as the 25SN7.

And yes, Ken Rad 6SN7, 12SN7 and 25SN7, all of the same vintage, sound the same.

As you might guess these are pretty rare, but given that hardly anyone can use them, they are often cheap. I paid $6.99 for this one.


----------



## Thaddy

Black glass tubes look so cool, these Tung-Sol 6SL7's just arrived today...


----------



## Ranger Ron

Thaddy said:


> Black glass tubes look so cool, these Tung-Sol 6SL7's just arrived today...


Very nice. Black glass tends to offer a little more mystique to things.


----------



## Odin412

Ranger Ron said:


> Very nice. Black glass tends to offer a little more mystique to things.


Absolutely! Although it sometimes makes the lovely tube glow harder to see


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Mail call! 

First up - NOS MELZ 1578 Dominos! 










Next up - Tung Sol 6F8G's (Not sure of the year) 




It's going to be a busy weekend!


----------



## musicman59

Those TS 6F8G BG/RP are my favorite driver tubes even over the TS 6SN7 BG/RP.


----------



## KonanAtlante

Tung Sol vt-99 NAVY














burnin (almost 100) after 50+ hours they began to honor their fame, for now I can only say that it is among my favorites, I will conclude with 200 hours)


----------



## Isaacc7

Galapac said:


> or worse you'll order tubes you have no use for because you ordered the wrong type or with the hope that you WILL USE them....someday.


Heh, I resemble that remark. I got some cvc1675 (n43) tubes by mistake thinking they were n34. 4v tubes... oh well. Then when I was ordering an external power supply from @Deyan to use 12 volt tubes on my amp he pointed out that for a little more money he could make it a variable supply. So I might end up using them after all!


----------



## belgiangenius

Some background:  I have a Schiit Freya+ that takes 6SN7 tubes.  I have many different flavours of NOS tubes.  My favourites are Raytheon VT231.  I've tried many new manufacture tubes over the years and was never impressed with any of them.  I had tried some PSVANE tubes (12AU7, 12AT7) in different gear over the years and I always thought they sounded like donkey ass.

Then, someone convinced me to try some Psvane CV181-TII in my Schiit Freya+.  I was not optimistic.

I broke them in for a month before really listening to them.

HOT DAMN.  These tubes are good.  They're better than any new manufacture tube I've tried and they hold their own against the best NOS tubes I've heard.

I'm shocked.  I don't think I've ever been fond of anything that was made in China before.


----------



## tamtrum

If anyone is looking for a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GT 3 hole bad boys (date code 152) I've put up a listing on classifieds!


----------



## Bonddam

Dropped this vt231 here’s internals 
Last pic is my none broken one.


----------



## Lickumms

Bonddam said:


> Dropped this vt231 here’s internals
> Last pic is my none broken one.


Sorry for your loss.


----------



## Lickumms

I recently dropped one of my RCA VT-231 Gray glass tubes. It didn't break the glass but it makes a lot of noise now. Now I have to try and find a replacement that has the round metal plate on top to match with the one I have left.


----------



## Lickumms

Anyone know the sound difference between a 2 hole Melz and a 3 hole Melz? Is it worth spend nearly 3 times as much on the 3 hole over the 2 hole?


----------



## gibosi

I don't think I have ever seen a 3 hole Melz. Can you post a picture?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I found this a while back when I was on my Melz hunt, but I think it's only specifics to real vs. fake 1578's...


----------



## Galapac

ColSaulTigh said:


> I found this a while back when I was on my Melz hunt, but I think it's only specifics to real vs. fake 1578's...


It is...that nice photo is from @Paladin79  and shows real vs. fake. He is also THE expert on Melz tubes.


----------



## Lickumms

If I'm understanding it right, these are 6N8S Melz but with no holes? IS there a sound difference between holes and no holes?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264969519491?hash=item3db16a0183:g:deUAAOSw79VfsVTw

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2657840110...mJTXtOPDUZ3LrDuuyJnCtt2g2ESj|tkp:BFBM3ISU58Ng


----------



## bcowen

Lickumms said:


> If I'm understanding it right, these are 6N8S Melz but with no holes? IS there a sound difference between holes and no holes?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/264969519491?hash=item3db16a0183:g:deUAAOSw79VfsVTw
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/265784011031?hash=item3de1f62917:g:wgwAAOSwWSti1Cym&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4Juk78QSRLfbCswv1QvrDQnG2qxqCurUHhB5sB6r0TEPPIrK2raCil6AxHEHxuQfGf9/UwIMdjqOr8uEBGL9nVnZ0+UvVDDm6lbny4fP5KlRi87exIqmci1SLwo7MzGak88OChGqe7B9dCQXac1mENaJCHadseKYAsAIIw1PXFZr8GsrEw1p1yIDMfnniZYK6ii99WfewGDGc/9YRSoGT/a4CHdhGcMhtD1FWNECUypTJRce4tGu14B8koqE7rWRIS3W/XDXPkMaX7FCmJTXtOPDUZ3LrDuuyJnCtt2g2ESj|tkp:BFBM3ISU58Ng


Although there are a few 6N8S's I've seen that have perforated plates, they are pretty rare and unusual. The great majority of 6N8S's have solid plates.  OTOH, the great majority of 1578's have perforated plates, although there have been a few surface that have all the other characteristics of a 1578 but with solid plates.  There is a pretty big difference between the 6N8S and the 1578 with the 1578 taking the honors sonically.  Both listings you linked are for regular 6N8S's, and $130 for a single is WAY high.  The other listing for a pair at $130 is more reasonable ($65/tube) and more in line with current market pricing.


----------



## skhan007

Bonddam said:


> Dropped this vt231 here’s internals
> Last pic is my none broken one.


Wow- I bet it sounds much more open and airy now! Sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on.


----------



## Lickumms

Got a set of RCA Victor 6SN7-GT tubes that I am really loving.


----------



## skhan007

Gents- I was hoping for some guidance with my first 6sn7 purchase. I have a Bottlehead Crack Speedball and recently ordered the adapter for 9 pin 12au7 to 8 pin 6sn7 conversion. 

Before going into the rabbit hole and amassing a healthy selection of tubes, I was thinking about one or two just to see if I can appreciate any differences over my current (already great sounding) RCA clear top 12au7. The guys on the BHC thread nearly unanimously agree there is a benefit in going to 6sn7 in the driver position of this amp. 

Many guys have recommended Melz, although I see they are pricey and I don't really see any available in the US, and thus require some international purchase/shipping. On the other hand, the chrome top Sylvania (both black and brown base), Raytheon, Tung Sol, and RCA seem to be abundant. In my stash of tubes (lots of tubes for my guitar amps) I have a single lonely Sovtek 6sn7. This one does not get mentioned, ever, so I'm concluding it's not a desirable one for hifi use. 

If you guys were to recommend one or two for my situation, what would you say? Thanks in advance.


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> Gents- I was hoping for some guidance with my first 6sn7 purchase. I have a Bottlehead Crack Speedball and recently ordered the adapter for 9 pin 12au7 to 8 pin 6sn7 conversion.
> 
> Before going into the rabbit hole and amassing a healthy selection of tubes, I was thinking about one or two just to see if I can appreciate any differences over my current (already great sounding) RCA clear top 12au7. The guys on the BHC thread nearly unanimously agree there is a benefit in going to 6sn7 in the driver position of this amp.
> 
> ...


Most of the really desirable NOS tubes are quite costly these days.  I was going to suggest a smoke-glass KenRad -- they used to be reasonable priced, but they're up in the stratosphere now too.

If you're mostly wanting just to see how much difference you'll hear in your system, try a Foton.  Still available for cheap but very nice sounding tubes (IMO), and will sound very different than the RCA clear top (a great sounding tube too I think).  The ribbed plate versions (1955 and earlier, and partway into 1956) are the best, but any of the '57, '58, and '59 smooth plates are very close in overall sound quality.  1960 and later?  Not so much.

The listing below is shipping from Bulgaria, so still overseas but without the current uncertainty of stuff shipping from Ukraine. Don't know that you'll find any of these (1950's anyway) shipping from a US seller.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265803078732?hash=item3de3191c4c:g:u68AAOSwCFxi5CYh


----------



## Ranger Ron

Here’s one that surprised me.  This KenRad was being very fussy during warmup, wouldn’t settle down. Zip tie to the rescue. All is quiet 🤷🏾‍♂️


----------



## skhan007

My exploration of 6sn7 tubes has officially begun. I've acquired my first two, the chrome top Sylvania and the Raytheon. My adapter to convert my Bottlehead Crack from 12au7 to 6sn7 has also arrived. So now, I'm test driving both. It hasn't even been 24 hours yet, so I'll have to reserve my impressions, but immediately, I believe I'm hearing a larger soundstage, more separation of the higher frequencies (cymbals, strings, etc.) and a bit more lower bass extension, compared to my RCA clear top 12au7. All positives so far. I'll continue to listen over the next several days/weeks.


----------



## larcenasb

Man, what were the prices of these tubes like in the 90s and early 2000s? Was I born too late??


----------



## Galapac

larcenasb said:


> Man, what were the prices of these tubes like in the 90s and early 2000s? Was I born too late??


Maybe not born late but woke up too late. They have really spiked in the last few years as supply has dried up on a finite number. 
Many are lost, damaged, or hoarded now.
But the price will be whatever the market demands, never to see again the initial sticker price.


----------



## Isaacc7

larcenasb said:


> Man, what were the prices of these tubes like in the 90s and early 2000s? Was I born too late??


They were quite a bit lower of course. On the other hand it was a lot more difficult to find them as well, especially in the 90s. I went on a tube buying binge in the early to mid 2000s. I had it in my head that I was going to go into DIY tube stuff in a big way. In reality it was just an excuse to buy a bunch of tubes lol. Unfortunately I bought up useful DIY tubes instead of regular audio tubes. Now I'm sitting on a pile of tubes I can't use and still aren't worth anything lol. 

Back then you could still get anything you wanted. Sure, things like WE 300A, RCA 845, and the like were expensive but you could get them. I weep thinking about the prices of GEC KT66/88 and various inout tubes back then. Still, I have managed to acquire a large assortment of wonderful tubes, enough to last me the rest of my life


----------



## larcenasb

Isaacc7 said:


> In reality it was just an excuse to buy a bunch of tubes lol


Haha, I can definitely understand that! I do have a decent collection of tubes, but was hoping to get a spare 40s Ken-Rad 6SN7GT staggered-plates tube today and was shocked at the huge increases. I bought one testing about 90% in 2013 or 2014 for about $32. I'll look for a good tube under $100.

I know there are a lot of variables, but in my fully-modded Bottlehead Crack w/ an RCA 6AS7G, the Ken-Rad makes voices coming from my K240 Sextetts sound spookily lifelike. Do any of you get that impression? My favorite is the RCA smoked-glass overall for its warmth and verve, but the Ken-Rad just does amazing with voices in my setup.


----------



## Ranger Ron

larcenasb said:


> Haha, I can definitely understand that! I do have a decent collection of tubes, but was hoping to get a spare 40s Ken-Rad 6SN7GT staggered-plates tube today and was shocked at the huge increases. I bought one testing about 90% in 2013 or 2014 for about $32. I'll look for a good tube under $100.
> 
> I know there are a lot of variables, but in my fully-modded Bottlehead Crack w/ an RCA 6AS7G, the Ken-Rad makes voices coming from my K240 Sextetts sound spookily lifelike. Do any of you get that impression? My favorite is the RCA smoked-glass overall for its warmth and verve, but the Ken-Rad just does amazing with voices in my setup.


I get that impression, big time.  Out of 17 tubes currently lit in my system, 6 of them are KenRad. 2 6F8G,  2 6SN7, 2 12AX7. All amazing sounding tubes.  Hats off to the men and women who worked in that Owensboro, Kentucky factory.


----------



## Isaacc7

gibosi said:


> To my knowledge, there are only the three standard versions of the Sylvania 6SN7W, two tall bottles, with metal or plastic bases, and the small bottle. Sometimes you will see one of these labeled as 6SN7A, but it is the exact same tube. Unfortunately for those of us who can run 12 volt tubes, Sylvania did not make a 12SN7W. However, there are rebrands. I have in my collection a metal-based Philco and a metal-based Delco. Good luck in your  hunt!


This is responding to a really old post. Stumbled across it while searching for something else. I’m convinced that the clear glass 14n7 is equivalent to the 6sn7w. Same plates, same copper support rod, even a metal base. They also sound different to 7n7. Worth looking in to.


----------



## Pondoro

Hi - I have an RCA 6SN7 "GTA" that says 439 on the base, no letters. The 4 is slightly larger than the 39. All the date codes I can find seem to be letters. Anyone care o decipher this?

Thanks


----------



## gibosi

Pondoro said:


> Hi - I have an RCA 6SN7 "GTA" that says 439 on the base, no letters. The 4 is slightly larger than the 39. All the date codes I can find seem to be letters. Anyone care o decipher this?
> 
> Thanks



Without seeing it I can't be sure...  But I suspect 1954 week 39.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Without seeing it I can't be sure...  But I suspect 1954 week 39.


I approve this message... 😎


----------



## Pondoro (Nov 16, 2022)

So my RCA "439" is from 1954 and my RCA "KM" is from 1957 (I found the KM date code online). Does this yield info about where each was made?

I have a Sylvania that says "EJ" and I cannot find anything on it.


----------



## gibosi

Pondoro said:


> So my RCA "439" is from 1954 and my RCA "KM" is from 1957 (I found the KM date code online). Does this yield info about where each was made?
> 
> I have a Sylvania that says "EJ" and I cannot find anything on it.



I think EJ = Sep, 1958. But Sylvanias code changed fairly frequently and ink color, font and the use of upper case and lower case letters were all significant at certain times.


----------



## Sweet William

thatonenoob said:


> I'm collecting a crap ton of tubes.  Too many for my own health as of late.
> 
> RCA 6080s, Sylvania coinbase rebrands, fotons, and soon thomsons!  Incredibly excited for the Thomson 6080.


I recently bought a Thomson 6080 but it failed a day after delivery. A new one was supplied and I have used it since (a few weeks). I fired up my system which uses the DV in it and one channel was dead. I later replaced the Thomson with a different make 6080 and sound returned to normal.
Thomsons are light on bass and a bit thin and tinny in higher levels. Reasonable price for the money provided they last. There are plenty available on the internet but I suspect that they are new Chinese tubes made by DAWN of Nanjing. Caveat emptor.


----------



## JKDJedi

Sweet William said:


> I recently bought a Thomson 6080 but it failed a day after delivery. A new one was supplied and I have used it since (a few weeks). I fired up my system which uses the DV in it and one channel was dead. I later replaced the Thomson with a different make 6080 and sound returned to normal.
> Thomsons are light on bass and a bit thin and tinny in higher levels. Reasonable price for the money provided they last. There are plenty available on the internet but I suspect that they are new Chinese tubes made by DAWN of Nanjing. Caveat emptor.


Same, got a pair and one went south on me quickly and they do sound thin and lifeless. Maybe for a bass heavy headphones? They are beautiful.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 26, 2022)

Make that 3.  Got a pair  -- 1 was DOA, one was very low output.  The replacements were no better.  Just took the refund and called it a day.


----------



## Sweet William

JKDJedi said:


> Same, got a pair and one went south on me quickly and they do sound thin and lifeless. Maybe for a bass heavy headphones? They are beautiful.


Yes theThomson is a good looking tube. I honestly do not belive the many available are NOS French tubes though.


----------



## Sweet William

Ripper2860 said:


> Make that 3.  Got a pair  -- 1 was DOA, one was very low output.  The replacements were no better.  Just took the refund and called it a day.


They lack gain and are slower than many tubes to warm up.
I think I will look elsewhere for a power tube.


----------



## Sweet William

Ripper2860 said:


> Make that 3.  Got a pair  -- 1 was DOA, one was very low output.  The replacements were no better.  Just took the refund and called it a day.


They lack gain and are slower than many tubes to warm up.
I think I will look elsewhere for a power tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Sweet William said:


> They lack gain and are slower than many tubes to warm up.
> I think I will look elsewhere for a power tube.


Mullard 6080 is the cats meow.


----------



## Sweet William

JKDJedi said:


> Mullard 6080 is the cats meow.


Where to find one is the problem. At the mo I rely on RCA 6080 and the driver us a Shuguan special edition driver tube from Grant Fidelity in Calgary. Neither has given me any trouble these last twelve months or so and sound very good.


----------



## UntilThen

Sweet William said:


> Where to find one is the problem. At the mo I rely on RCA 6080 and the driver us a Shuguan special edition driver tube from Grant Fidelity in Calgary. Neither has given me any trouble these last twelve months or so and sound very good.



I know a place that has a lot of them. Whisper me and you can only buy a pair so that others might get a chance to sample NOS notoriety. 

I gave up on my Tung Sol 5998, Bendix 6080wb, GEC 6080, Mullard 6080 together with Wa22 and call it a day.  No I don't regret it because I'm on pentodes now and to my ears and for my purpose they sound better.... by a mile. Make it 2 miles.


----------



## LobalWarming

UntilThen said:


> I know a place that has a lot of them. Whisper me and you can only buy a pair so that others might get a chance to sample NOS notoriety.
> 
> I gave up on my Tung Sol 5998, Bendix 6080wb, GEC 6080, Mullard 6080 together with Wa22 and call it a day.  No I don't regret it because I'm on pentodes now and to my ears and for my purpose they sound better.... by a mile. Make it 2 miles.


A place with a lot of what - notoriety? I know many notorious places, some even here at Head-Fi.


----------



## JKDJedi

LobalWarming said:


> A place with a lot of what - notoriety? I know many notorious places, some even here at Head-Fi.


Somebody ran out of milk for their cereal...


----------



## LobalWarming

JKDJedi said:


> Somebody ran out of milk for their cereal...


Milk on cereal! Sarcasm on a meter! Where is this 6SN7 thread headed next?


----------



## BenSherman (Dec 8, 2022)

Hi all,

I have a Miltra OTL-8XT headphone amp. It was supplied with a pair of 6N13S power tubes, and two pairs of driver tubes: 2 x 6H8C and 2 x Psvane 6SN7 (shown in photo).

I'm really keen on purchasing some new tubes to play with the sound. However - I don't understand the naming or compatibility of tubes.

All the tubes I have for my amp have the connector as shown in the second photo. It has 8 metal connector pins with a central plastic stalk to hold the tube in place (is this what makes it a '6SN7'?). I have seen some tubes for sale with the 8 connector pins - but without the central stalk. Would that be suitable/safe, or does it need to match exactly?

I've read some excellent reviews of the 'Genalex Gold Lion' tubes, and I wanted to try some of these. Could somebody please recommend some suitable/compatible Gold Lions for my amp (to swap both the driver and power tubes)?

I've seen these Gold Lion 12AU7/Ecc82 tubes for example - but they don't have the plastic stalk!

Apologies if this all sounds really naive!  I don't want to make a silly mistake and destroy the tubes, or worse still my amp, headphones or ears!

Cheers! 

Ben


----------



## JKDJedi

BenSherman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a Miltra OTL-8XT headphone amp. It was supplied with a pair of 6N13S power tubes, and two pairs of driver tubes: 2 x 6H8C and 2 x Psvane 6SN7 (shown in photo).
> 
> ...


Nice amp, I'd get the tube with the center guide pin, that's all it is but you want that. Seems like you could use any 6as7g, 6080, 5998, 7236, for the power duties .. 6sn7 refers to the voltage used by that tube.... 6 volts. Any 6SN7, 6SN7GT, 6SN7GTB, etc.. will be good, Don't look for 12au7 tubes unless you amp supports it. I don't know much about your amp but if it came with 6sn7 tubes.... I'd stick with those type.


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## LobalWarming

The 6SN7 is one of the great audio tubes, even if it wasn't developed directly for audio. It uses an Octal base (8 pins) and draws 600mA of current. The latter specification is vital when rolling tubes outside the 6SN7 family. Exceeding the heater current spec in an amp is where most of the smoke and harm occurs.

The 12AU7 is a direct cost-down descendant to the 6SN7. With half the heater current needs at 300mA. And in most cases, half the sonic virtues of the 6SN7. Can be used in your amp with a 9pin (noval) to Octal adapter. 

However, before migrating to 'mutant' tubes, worth exploring the great variety of vintage 6SN7s. 

The 6SN7 Reference thread is filled with great info: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

A little 6SN7 history lesson here at effectrode.


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## BenSherman

@LobalWarming & @JKDJedi thanks for your help - really useful and interesting info!

I can't seem to find any Gold Lion tubes that match your recommended models for the driver or power tubes. Are there any specific brands/models that would be a safe bet as a great upgrade to the stock tubes?


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## JKDJedi

BenSherman said:


> @LobalWarming & @JKDJedi thanks for your help - really useful and interesting info!
> 
> I can't seem to find any Gold Lion tubes that match your recommended models for the driver or power tubes. Are there any specific brands/models that would be a safe bet as a great upgrade to the stock tubes?


Older NOS tubes are something to look into. (New Old Stock) Sylvania, Tung Sol, RCA, etc... tons out there. And then there's the new stock... you get your money's worth with the Old Stock . imo.


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## LobalWarming

I can suggest a number of tubes - that I enjoy, but you may not. But @JKDJedi is correct - NOS old tubes from golden era of tube production are better than current manufacture - in general. 

Here's a reasonable cost pair of National Union 6SN7s: https://www.ebay.com/itm/334654379710 - great introduction to vintage tubes.

Sylvania 6SN7GT (almost bad boys): https://www.ebay.com/itm/225278649274 - technically the 'bad boy' nomenclature is reserved for '51-'52 production - but the constuction is very similar - and the Sylvania bad boy rep is pretty much tube vendor marketing-speak. Regardless, a good entry into the Sylvania 6SN7 family.

Sylvania 6SN7WGT - I like these as much and sometimes more than bad boys: https://www.ebay.com/itm/334653794127 - 6SN7WGT is the mil spec version of the 6SN7 with tighter specs and more rugged construction. 

Tungsol 6SN7WGTA - Another 6SN7 I enjoy - original Tungsol, not re-branded: https://www.ebay.com/itm/285052254853

Raytheon 6SN7 - great deal for the pair: https://www.ebay.com/itm/155281077477

Classic RCA Grey Glass - a little weak, but so am I: https://www.ebay.com/itm/155284524891

Brimar 6SN7 - Made In England - Oval Plates - wonderful sonics: https://www.ebay.com/itm/144429877153

Crazy pricey Tungsol Round Plate Pair: https://www.ebay.com/itm/144733902322 - just so you know. And run away. 

This is but a start of a long and tasty tasting session. Happy tube rolling!


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## BenSherman

Thanks so much for the recommendations. Any recommendations for replacing the 6N13S power tubes?


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## LobalWarming

Oh dear... hear we go!

There's the silly expensive Tungsol 5998 that many state as the best of the 6AS7 style. I'm not one of them. It's decent enough, but waaaaay over-priced. The 6AS7/6080 were designed as AC motor regulators for rugged use. Then discovered in the 90s as output tubes for OTL amps. Back when even 5998s were pretty cheap.

Anyhow... let's start at the top:

Pair of 5998s: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233996686179 - only mildly nosebleed-inducing cost. 

Bendix 6080WB Graphite Plates - one of the best, possiblly - and again waaay overpriced: https://www.ebay.com/itm/185687903154

7236 - similar sonics to 5998 - a little leaner, but so much cheaper: https://www.ebay.com/itm/374363855811

Could look for a pair of Chatham 6AS7s - one of my favs of the breed.

Or... a pair of 6BX7s - not a regulator tube - but used for TVs in the 50s... so at least there's the media connection.  

Used in singles, they have a little higher output impedance than the 6AS7 family. But to my jaded ears, far more linear and enjoyable - a so much cheaper. In your case using a pair solves that issue - pretty much.

Here's an example of Sylvania 6BX7 pair: https://www.ebay.com/itm/374204269144

The Tungsol and RCA 6080s can be pretty good too. Check the big 6AS7 thread for more.

Also consider 6BL7, has slightly higher gain.  The 6BX7/6BL7 only require 1.5A of heater current - 6AS7/6N13S use 2.5A for the heaters. 6BX7 runs cooler. My fav summer output tube.


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## BenSherman

LobalWarming said:


> Oh dear... hear we go!
> 
> There's the silly expensive Tungsol 5998 that many state as the best of the 6AS7 style. I'm not one of them. It's decent enough, but waaaaay over-priced. The 6AS7/6080 were designed as AC motor regulators for rugged use. Then discovered in the 90s as output tubes for OTL amps. Back when even 5998s were pretty cheap.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much - this is incredibly insightful.

I'm in the UK - so have a limited selection. However, based on your info, I've found these:

*Power Tubes*

General Electric 6AS7GA

Telefunken 6080W

THOMPSON 6080WA

6080WB RAYTHEON JAN

6080 CV2984 Mullard

RCA 6080

GE NATIONAL BLACK BASE 5998A

RCA 6BX7GT (2 available but not being sold as matched pair)


*Driver Tubes*

Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome Top Tall Glass NOS

Do you have experience of the above options? Reckon any of these could be a hidden gem that I should snap up immediately??


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## LobalWarming

> *Power Tubes*
> 
> General Electric 6AS7GA


Not my 1st choice, not that it's bad, but run away!


> Telefunken 6080W


Great tube - if it wasn't a bad fake. Can post links to a real Tele 6080, but then you'd see the price, and your tears would cause a short in all the OTLs in England. Almost.


> THOMPSON 6080WA


Can be decent... when reliable. Later production like these have a sketchy reputation for stability... Do you feel lucky? See the last few pages of the 6AS7 thread.


> 6080WB RAYTHEON JAN


Don't see test results, so how used (up) are they? Good price for a good pair - if there's lots of life left. But we don't know.


> 6080 CV2984 Mullard


Pricey, but excellent - not neutral, but better - Mullard. 


> RCA 6080


I like these more than I should admit on Head-Fi. Underrated and underpriced - my fav combo.


> GE NATIONAL BLACK BASE 5998A


Some, not @bcowen, of course,  consider this a surprisingly decent tube - despite the GE lineage.  


> RCA 6BX7GT (2 available but not being sold as matched pair)


One of my fav 6BX7s - but this listing seems over-priced. 

Again, we must ask, @bcowen, to avert his gaze... but I took a $10 each gamble on late production Phillips ECG 6080s - very decent - prefer them to quite a few other 6080s that cost much more.  


> *Driver Tubes*
> 
> Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome Top Tall Glass NOS


I prefer the earlier production GT, however, these are still better to my ears than almost any new production tube.


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## bcowen (Dec 8, 2022)

LobalWarming said:


> Not my 1st choice, not that it's bad, but run away!
> 
> Great tube - if it wasn't a bad fake. Can post links to a real Tele 6080, but then you'd see the price, and your tears would cause a short in all the OTLs in England. Almost.
> 
> ...


My eyes are burning and my ears are exhibiting sympathetic pain.   🤣

Seriously, I'm in close agreement with everything you noted above.  The GE 6AS7G is a non-contender to my ears. The GE 5998, OTOH, isn't a bad tube at all.  Doesn't score highly with me (but also doesn't offend me), and there are others who find it to be an excellent tube for the money.  Nothing to complain about with the RCA 6080 -- good all 'rounder, doesn't do anything wrong.  I like the RCA 6AS7GA a little better, but that could just be sample variation as the internals look nearly identical. And I've actually never heard a Philips ECG 6080.  My hatred stems from their novals and 6SN7's.  If you ever want to make a nice tube amp sound like a $17 Class D amp from China, get some ECG 5814's.  🤣


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## LobalWarming

bcowen said:


> ...If you ever want to make a nice tube amp sound like a $17 Class D amp from China, get some ECG 5814's.  🤣


Thanks for the sonic degradation tip. If _that_ want ever happens, I'll be sure to try them.   

Did try one Philips ECG 6SN7. That was enough trying. It now rests, hopefully uncomfortably, in my drawer of shame.


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## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> The GE 5998, OTOH, isn't a bad tube at all.  Doesn't score highly with me (but also doesn't offend me),


Hi bcowen, have I missed something here, or have not noted it in its full context. Maybe have knowing me!

But a chrome top dimple plates 5998 is only made by Tungsol? Any other markings are a rebrand? Just like this cheeky little number trying to be something grander than a Tungsol 5998 😀.


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## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> But a chrome top dimple plates 5998 is only made by Tungsol? Any other markings are a rebrand? Just like this cheeky little number trying to be something grander than a Tungsol 5998 😀.



Yes, as you surmise, it is a TungSol 5998. And sometimes, if one is lucky, these can be bought for considerably less money than one carrying the TungSol brand.


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## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> The GE 5998, OTOH, isn't a bad tube at all. Doesn't score highly with me (but also doesn't offend me)



Let's get the naming right. It's GE 5998A and it doesn't compare with TS 5998. It's a Danny Devito compared to Arnold Schwarzenegger. There's no similarities at all. I use the GE 5998A at the driving range.


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## UntilThen

and What just happened? Croatia beat Brazil on penalties. The Samba is gone.............. I'm going back to smashing more GE 5998A.


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## JTbbb

UntilThen said:


> Let's get the naming right. It's GE 5998A and it doesn't compare with TS 5998. It's a Danny Devito compared to Arnold Schwarzenegger. There's no similarities at all. I use the GE 5998A at the driving range.


Yes of course, I should of known Mr bcowen knows his onions. Just missing his A game 😀


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## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Yes of course, I should of known Mr bcowen knows his onions. Just missing his A game 😀


Perhaps my wording was not up to snuff.  The GE 5998A just doesn’t suck as much as most other GE tubes.  Better?


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## UntilThen

This is a GE 5998A.



This is my GE 6AS7GA. You can see they are the same. I'm surprised I still have the tubes. Bought from Parts Connexion ages ago.


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## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Perhaps my wording was not up to snuff.  The GE 5998A just doesn’t suck as much as most other GE tubes.  Better?


So it sits somewhere between NC BBQ and Marilyn Manson on the 'Suck Scale'?


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## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Perhaps my wording was not up to snuff.  The GE 5998A just doesn’t suck as much as most other GE tubes.  Better?



It's not better than my GE rectifier.  This is Thomas Edison own copy.


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## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> So it sits somewhere between NC BBQ and Marilyn Manson on the 'Suck Scale'?


You're just jealous because Starland Vocal Band is your favorite group.


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## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> It's not better than my GE rectifier.  This is Thomas Edison own copy.


I sent a pair of those to @Paladin79 as a cruel joke.  Turns out he liked them, I think.   🤣


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## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I sent a pair of those to @Paladin79 as a cruel joke.  Turns out he liked them, I think.   🤣


They held up, I have not come across anyone who stated they heard an audible difference in rectifier brands.🤪🤪


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