# TurboDock impact



## RobG

I am curious to hear some testimonials as to the sonic impact the TurboDock II has when compared to the standard ipod line out (preferably someone with a nano).

 Thank you for your input!

 Best,

 Rob


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## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RobG* 
_I am curious to hear some testimonials as to the sonic impact the TurboDock II has when compared to the standard ipod line out (preferably someone with a nano).

 Thank you for your input!

 Best,

 Rob 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well technically the standard ipod lineout would be the lineout available on the dock? Compared to that, and the Pocketdock, and the Sik Din, the Turbodock wins the cake for clarity imho. Plus, it's portable. And it locks. And you can use your own cables. Win win win win.


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## RobG

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_Well technically the standard ipod lineout would be the lineout available on the dock? Compared to that, and the Pocketdock, and the Sik Din, the Turbodock wins the cake for clarity imho. Plus, it's portable. And it locks. And you can use your own cables. Win win win win._

 

Hi Jahn! So, sonically, would you say the turbodock II makes quite an improvement over the standard mini-jack lineout? 

 Any other thoughts here??


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## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RobG* 
_Hi Jahn! So, sonically, would you say the turbodock II makes quite an improvement over the standard mini-jack lineout? 

 Any other thoughts here??_

 

Technically, there is no standard min-jack lineout other than the one on the dock itself, which isn't that portable, and the new dock has a variable line out, which imho isn't a "true" line-out. So yes, the Turbodock is better than anything Apple has to offer to date.


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## RobG

Jahn - Did you see that??? I think something just flew over my head....


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## Jazz1

How can I get ahold of "Turbo". Does anyone have his e-mail. I see several "Turbo" name variations.

 Thanks all!


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## bhd812

Before my Td2 I used my headphone out on my ipod mini just because I thought the quality and use didnt require more into it. I sometime used my sr-71 amp from the headphone out with out much thought...boy was I wrong!

 I seen the price of the td2 ($24) and I firgured why not its only $24 bucks rite?

 I ordered and it came in...I thought at first turbo had someone from apple making these cause the build quality is something that would ship from apple themselves. I plugged in my mini with my sr-71 and a few of my cans and I must say.....

 I cant believe this! its awesome! 
 I then looked at a serious side of the ipod quality and went balls out on mini cords and custom iems cause of the great quality of the td2 on my mini.


 would I buy again? 
 well let me tell you I will never use my ipod without the td2 ever!


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## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jazz1* 
_How can I get ahold of "Turbo". Does anyone have his e-mail. I see several "Turbo" name variations.

 Thanks all!_

 

his PM name is "TURBO" and that's it!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 *sorry for lobbing line out talk over heads here, i'll just say the turbodock beats everything else hehe.*


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## bigshot

What sort of electronics are in a line out dongle? I was under the impression that the line out was one jack on the docking port, not something external to the iPod. Aren't all of these line out jumpers just simple connector adapters?

 See ya
 Steve


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## RnB180

the ipod female dock jack comprises of several pins.
 3 of those pins are utilized for line outs.

 a detach dock soldered the pins to the solder terminals of a pcb mount 1/8 mini jack.

 the cable connects through the mini jack which in turn is soldered via wires to the pins.

 those expressing an improvement over the other dock connectors on the market, are most likely hearing the advantages of upgrading the mini jack in the dock along with using large awg wiring internally.

 IMO there is an improvement via line out versus the headphone out. But on my iPod mini, the line out sounds very similar to the headphone out. Others however have expressed major improvements with their iPods. Since the iPod mini is one of the weakest sounding DAPs on the market, I wouldnt doubt the 5g are substatially superior sonically.

 My shuffle has an extraordinary clean headphone out. Worthy of line out status IMO, while my iPod mini line out and headphone out sound nearly the same between the two.


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_What sort of electronics are in a line out dongle?_

 

Not much...the info about the same dongle that TURBO uses is on ipodlinux.org. According to TURBO, one of the biggest benefits of the Turbodock is there's nothing else going through it (like power) to distort the audio signal.


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clarke68* 
_Not much...the info about the same dongle that TURBO uses is on ipodlinux.org. According to TURBO, one of the biggest benefits of the Turbodock is there's nothing else going through it (like power) to distort the audio signal._

 


 actually all detach docks are passive. To my knowledge there is not detach dock on the market that incoporates any active components. The docks are just like cables, connectors - wire - connector. in short its an adapter.


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_To my knowledge there is not detach dock on the market that incoporates any active components._

 

Sure...but all the docks I know of (besides the Turbodock) will charge the iPod (see pins 18, 19, 20 & 23 in the link above).


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## bigshot

But they do that through a separate cable, wired completely independent from the line out. Right?

 See ya
 Steve


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clarke68* 
_Sure...but all the docks I know of (besides the Turbodock) will charge the iPod (see pins 18, 19, 20 & 23 in the link above)._

 


 thats not comparable, since the same effect is had by just utilizing the line out and disconnecting the charger. same thing.

 but by not incorporating a USB/firewire, does is leave more room in the dock to use. It has nothing to do with effecting the sonic signal. The only thing IMO that would effect the audio signal, would be the quality of parts used in the dock. This is how something would be potentially bottlenecked in the audio chain.


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_But they do that through a separate cable, wired completely independent from the line out. Right?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Blame apple 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and their whole proprietary/strange designs.

 btw. In essence there is way to skip the adapter in the chain, just by hard wiring the cable to the pins. but then this would leave out the option of switching interconnects.


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## grandenigma1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Blame apple 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and their whole proprietary/strange designs.

 btw. In essence there is way to skip the adapter in the chain, just by hard wiring the cable to the pins. but then this would leave out the option of switching interconnects._

 

The turbodock is nothing more then a convenience at a decent price for those that like to swap mini cables.

 For me my sik ram din does just fine.


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## papakoks

is there a difference between the turbodock II and pocketdock, sonically?


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_thats not comparable, since the same effect is had by just utilizing the line out and disconnecting the charger. same thing.

 but by not incorporating a USB/firewire, does is leave more room in the dock to use. It has nothing to do with effecting the sonic signal. The only thing IMO that would effect the audio signal, would be the quality of parts used in the dock._

 

Perhaps you're right...all I know about the Turbodock is what Turbo has said about it: Quote:


 -- "The TURBOdock II" is a true hi-fi device. It only does line out (via a mini jack). No charging or nothing else. You won’t have to deal with or cut the extra Firewire cable. Also, you can get a clean line out sound and use it with any hi-fi device or cable.

 -- Inside, only the audio pins are enabled. There are no other pins in this connector, so you don’t get any interference in the signal. 
 

I find that the sonic differences between different cable materials/constructions are insignificant, but the effects of EMI and RFI are very significant. Since the power pins in the iPod's dock connector aren't shielded and are less than 1cm from the audio pins, I choose to believe the "clean line out, no interference" story.

 You are, obviously, a big-time cable guy (and you do gorgeous work, BTW 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) and may likewise choose to believe whatever you like.


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## BlindTiger

If you're using the pocketdock or Sik Ram, how is there power supply or RF interference if you're not using that portion of the connector?


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clarke68* 
_Perhaps you're right...all I know about the Turbodock is what Turbo has said about it:I find that the sonic differences between different cable materials/constructions are insignificant, but the effects of EMI and RFI are very significant. Since the power pins in the iPod's dock connector aren't shielded and are less than 1cm from the audio pins, I choose to believe the "clean line out, no interference" story.

 You are, obviously, a big-time cable guy (and you do gorgeous work, BTW 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) and may likewise choose to believe whatever you like._

 



 Hi there,
 If you do not plug in the USB, there is nothing going through the dock connector via usb. so where would the interference come from?
 DIY docks, just remove the USB jack. But if the dock did include a USB jack, if its not connected, I do not see where you going with this.

 The pins are pins. You can solder anything you want to them. They only become active, when you run something through them.

 you can remove the pins, you can leave the pins, if they are not used, nothing happens whether they are removed or left. If you remove the pins, it makes it easier to solder and prevents bridging to other pins.


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_If you do not plug in the USB, there is nothing going through the dock connector via usb. so where would the interference come from?
 DIY docks, just remove the USB jack. But if the dock did include a USB jack, if its not connected, I do not see where you going with this.

 The pins are pins. You can solder anything you want to them. They only become active, when you run something through them.

 you can remove the pins, you can leave the pins, if they are not used, nothing happens whether they are removed or left. If you remove the pins, it makes it easier to solder and prevents bridging to other pins._

 

Sorry, I don't really understand what you're asking/saying. If you have questions or comments about the Turbodock, why don't you address them to Turbo, the unit's inventor?


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## RobG

That's it, get TURBO over here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 SO - the original question posted was: is there a sonic improvement when using the TURBOdock II over the the standard nano headphone jack....

 does anyone have thoughts/experience to answer that question? Have we gotten any closer through our discussions here?

 keep up the good conversations! 

 Rob


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## bigshot

I'm trying very hard to figure out how a connector with perhaps a quarter of an inch of cable inside it connecting two standard jacks can have any sort of effect on the sound at all. If the jacks were poorly manufactured and the dock connections bled, I can see how you might get noise... but I doubt that's the case. Dock connectors are stock items aren't they?

 I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there probably is no sonic difference at all between the Sik Din, Pocket Dock and Turbo Dock. You can tell me that I should go out and buy all three and find out for myself, but I'm not going to. I'm perfectly happy with my Pocket Dock.

 See ya
 Steve


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## Jahn

well i've been in the interesting position to own all three, some more than once, and at the same time, and imho the TurboDock II kicks their butt.


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## RobG

OK - so it seems that I _will _benefit from a TURBOdock II (as opposed to stickING with the standard apple headphone jack on the nano)... CORRECT?????

 nano headphone jack - good

 TURBOdock II - better?


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## Borat

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RobG* 
_OK - so it seems that I will benefit from a TURBOdock II (as opposed to stickING with the standard apple headphone jack on the nano)... CORRECT?????

 nano headphone jack - good

 TURBOdock II - better?_

 

Rob, the line out, which is accessed through the dock connector on the bottom of your Nano is preferable for connecting an amp than the headphone out on the top. You can access this line out by using one of three products:

 1. Sik Ram Din or Sik Din (if you want to use your Diamond mini)

 2.Sendstation Pocket Dock

 3. TurboDock II, which is similar to the product above. But it's cheaper and reportedly more transparent. PM him for orders.


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clarke68* 
_Sorry, I don't really understand what you're asking/saying. If you have questions or comments about the Turbodock, why don't you address them to Turbo, the unit's inventor?_

 


 I dont have any questions about it, I was correcting your statement. I know exactly how docks are made. If anything Turbos is an improvement over the pocket dock, not because of the lack of USB, but because the parts in the dock should be substatially better.

 the pocket dock uses a very cheap input jack and the signal wires have a thickness of 2 human hairs.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_well i've been in the interesting position to own all three, some more than once, and at the same time, and imho the TurboDock II kicks their butt._

 

Well, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but what exactly does that mean?

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_the pocket dock uses a very cheap input jack and the signal wires have a thickness of 2 human hairs._

 

Would that be about the same kind of wire used to connect the pins on a cartridge to the headshell of a turntable?

 Edit: How about the wires in the ribbon cable that connects the iPod's internal guts to the dock port?

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

I'm wondering if RobG knows that with line out you need some sort of headphone amp to be able to adjust the volume... You can't just plug your headphones into the dock.

 See ya
 Steve


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Would that be about the same kind of wire used to connect the pins on a cartridge to the headshell of a turntable?

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 Hi Steve,

 I dont own a turn table. But I think I understand what you are trying to get at.
 Rather then turn this into a skeptic versus believer debate, I will stop here.

 Have a good day.


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## Jahn

the td line out sounds the least muddy, to put it simply. it's the one that gets out of the way the most.


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RobG* 
_OK - so it seems that I will benefit from a TURBOdock II (as opposed to stickING with the standard apple headphone jack on the nano)... CORRECT?????

 nano headphone jack - good

 TURBOdock II - better?_

 


 RobG.

 theoretically, you connect the headphone amplifier to a players line out. You can connect the amplifier to the headphone out too. but the line out of a player is supposed to be cleaner as it bypasses the internal headphone amplifier. So in theory the line out should be a cleaner signal and unaffected by the volume control. You should not connect headphones to a line out however.

 Regarding iPods I believe they use some odd design to create a line out that links to the headphone out in some way I think, thus not actually being a true line out. Can someone clarify how the iPods creates a line out?


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_the td line out sounds the least muddy, to put it simply. it's the one that gets out of the way the most._

 

I did a test with my CD player and my iPod loaded with an AIFF rip off the CD. I compared the sound of the CD's headphone out to the iPod's through the Pocket Dock and a cmoy. Wanna guess what I found out? Yup... The AIFF file on the iPod sounded exactly like the original CD.

 If your Pocket Dock sounded muddy, or "got in the way", I think there must have been some gorf on the connector.

 See ya
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Regarding iPods I believe they use some odd design to create a line out that links to the headphone out in some way I think, thus not actually being a true line out. Can someone clarify how the iPods creates a line out?_

 

The iPod has a true line out. The EQ settings get applied because it's a digital equalizer... it comes before the headphone amp circuitry.

 See ya
 Steve


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## papakoks

thanks for this...finally got an answer to ipod's EQ affecting the lineout ...


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## sclamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Borat* 
_TurboDock II, which is similar to the product above. But it's cheaper and reportedly more transparent. PM him for orders._

 

What is Turbos handle on this forum? I can't find him, or do I have to go to the Xin forum to find out about the TurboDock.

 If I can source one of these I can get back to myo re. a DTR cable.

 Thanks.

 Simon


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## TURBO

Turbodocks are more than wires and jacks. It's a passive hi-fi device with no interference / noise / hiss at all induced by over looping of the device usb/firewire circuit or connection to it from the PC. The connector uses a proprietary no public tecnology that I am developing called "MFET". It stands for Maximum Flow of Electrons Transferring. This technology works at the molecular level. This technology is not visible but you can hear it. That's all I can say for now.

 These connectors do not sound like the competition and are not made like them. Period. That's why. They are more than what you can see on the outside. Thank you.

 TURBO


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## StevieDvd

I might also add that the Turbo Dock being slightly smaller allows me to use the line out with my Ipod encased in it's aluminium after-market case which the Pockedock connector is too big for.

 Steve


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## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I did a test with my CD player and my iPod loaded with an AIFF rip off the CD. I compared the sound of the CD's headphone out to the iPod's through the Pocket Dock and a cmoy. Wanna guess what I found out? Yup... The AIFF file on the iPod sounded exactly like the original CD._

 

Time to get a better CD player.


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## RobG

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I'm wondering if RobG knows that with line out you need some sort of headphone amp to be able to adjust the volume... You can't just plug your headphones into the dock.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

indeed


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## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sclamb* 
_What is Turbos handle on this forum? I can't find him, or do I have to go to the Xin forum to find out about the TurboDock.

 If I can source one of these I can get back to myo re. a DTR cable.

 Thanks.

 Simon_

 

Turbo's handle here is "TURBO"


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## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Time to get a better CD player. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Lol I almost spit up my pepsi! yes indeed, i'm not doubting you heard what you heard bigshot, but something is wrong (imho) if your CDP sounds the same as an ipod, no matter how new the ipod. The ipod DACs are just not running with the big boys of home audio, it's more of a decent portable solution. We did a test between Lan's 1212 and my old 3G and no contest - the ipod sounded quite wimpy and muffled with no bass comparatively. With my 5G back home, I plugged my ipod via headphone out and line out both via the modded 0404 i have running right now (DAC-ah is out being modded) and the 0404 still runs rings around it, with both plugged into a Melos to an HP2 (all other things equal, since I have the same 256VBR tracks on my ipod as I do on my comp).

 But really that's a different subject. I never use the ipod at home anyhow, it's in my portable rig, and with the TDII with my AE-1 it's the cleanest combo I have - I even use a copper IC from headphile to warm it up a bit because I'd like it to be a bit more forgiving of my crappier rips, which I usually only listen to portably where ambient noise helps drown out the bad compression or mastering(and that's with Koss KSC-35 too!) Edit- of course the BlackCoral is still darn resolving, it's just not on the order of, say, RnB's BlackDiamond.


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## RobG

Darn you Jahn! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why do I live in St. Louis? I don't get to listen to any cool gear here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm moving to Chicago (Go Cubs!) or Cali

 btw, trying to arrange a meet in the St. Louis area if anyone can make it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so, I think my question has been answered. thank you all


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## bhd812

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RobG* 
_Darn you Jahn! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Why do I live in St. Louis? I don't get to listen to any cool gear here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm moving to Chicago (Go Cubs!) or Cali

 btw, trying to arrange a meet in the St. Louis area if anyone can make it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so, I think my question has been answered. thank you all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Go to the upcoming cinnci meet and I will bring my Turbo dock 2 for you to try out


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## RobG

when is the Cinci meet? what is your expected turnout? you think anyone there would be interested in coming to St. Louis at some point?


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Time to get a better CD player. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I knew "There's something wrong with your ears/equipment." was coming along here somewhere...

 I have a Phillips 963SA. Nothing wrong with it at all.

 See ya
 Steve


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## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I knew "There's something wrong with your ears/equipment." was coming along here somewhere...

 I have a Phillips 963SA. Nothing wrong with it at all.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

one could also say something's right with your ipod that it equals your 963SA, and congrats, so I guess we shouldn't be so negative all the time hehe.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_Lol I almost spit up my pepsi! yes indeed, i'm not doubting you heard what you heard bigshot, but something is wrong (imho) if your CDP sounds the same as an ipod, no matter how new the ipod._

 

The Wolfson WM8759 DAC in the iPod is supports word lengths up to 24 bit and sampling rates up to 192kHz. The SNR is 100dB and the line out THD is -88dB. It compares to the Wolfson DACs made for use in DVD and home theater applications. The main difference is power consumption and lack of multichannel support. It's more than enough to match the DAC in most home CD players.

 See ya
 Steve


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## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_one could also say something's right with your ipod that it equals your 963SA, and congrats, so I guess we shouldn't be so negative all the time hehe.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah right, mighty good iPod! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sidenote, bigshot, did you try other, higher end SACD players than yours? I noticed you're not too keen on what SACD has to offer, and it would add to my theory that SACD makes little sense in the mid-up consumer level of components.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_Turbodocks are more than wires and jacks. It's a passive hi-fi device with no interference / noise / hiss at all induced by over looping of the device usb/firewire circuit or connection to it from the PC. The connector uses a proprietary no public tecnology that I am developing called "MFET". It stands for Maximum Flow of Electrons Transferring. This technology works at the molecular level. This technology is not visible but you can hear it. That's all I can say for now.

 These connectors do not sound like the competition and are not made like them. Period. That's why. They are more than what you can see on the outside. Thank you.

 TURBO_

 

Could you address the poster who asked if a Pocket Dock without the USB or Firewire cable attached would produce the same result?

 LSMFT
 Steve


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Oliver * 
_Sidenote, bigshot, did you try other, higher end SACD players than yours? I noticed you're not too keen on what SACD has to offer, and it would add to my theory that SACD makes little sense in the mid-up consumer level of components._

 

The Phillips player is well thought of in audiophile circles. If there's no difference with it, I'm not going to spend thousands on a high end deck to find out if it's better. I can tell the difference between a 78 and an LP, or between stereo and mono, or even a record and a CD without spending that much. If the format has anything to offer, it should be evident with the Phillips deck.

 I've had experience with higher bit rate recording in the studio. My impression there was that high bitrates give you more resolution in the quiet parts for bringing up low level stuff in the mix, but for regular playback, standard CD quality sound is for all intents and purposes the same.

 There's a point where you're chasing after numbers, not sound. SACD is on the wrong side of that line.

 See ya
 Steve


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## swmtnbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *StevieDvd* 
_I might also add that the Turbo Dock being slightly smaller allows me to use the line out with my Ipod encased in it's aluminium after-market case which the Pockedock connector is too big for._

 

I agree completely. For me the TurbodockII has three big advantages over the PocketDock and four in the case of the Sik Ram Din:

 1) It's smaller and less bulky.
 2) It locks.
 3) Buying it helps support a fellow Head-Fi member and small businessman.
 4) You can use your choice of interconnect (you cannot with the Ram Din).

 When I had both the PocketDock and the TurboDockII in my possession I spent a half hour comparing them for sonic differences and couldn't hear it. To my ears the sound quality of my iPod's amped line out was exactly the same with both docks.


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## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_The Wolfson WM8759 DAC in the iPod is supports word lengths up to 24 bit and sampling rates up to 192kHz. The SNR is 100dB and the line out THD is -88dB. It compares to the Wolfson DACs made for use in DVD and home theater applications. The main difference is power consumption and lack of multichannel support. It's more than enough to match the DAC in most home CD players.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

So if there was a reason for a reduction in SQ (which I hear) it might be due to the way an ipod handles power consumption versus how a CDP does? Just speculating, but let's say the same DAC is in an ipod as a CDP, and you play both with the same track. Wouldn't the ipod still suffer due to not having as beefy a power plant behind it as a standalone would? Just tossing it out there as another possible reason why differences are being heard.

 Again, this is off topic, but I have to say I'm curious.


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## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dpippel* 
_I agree completely. For me the TurbodockII has three big advantages over the PocketDock and four in the case of the Sik Ram Din:

 1) It's smaller and less bulky.
 2) It locks.
 3) Buying it helps support a fellow Head-Fi member and small businessman.
 4) You can use your choice of interconnect (you cannot with the Ram Din).

 When I had both the PocketDock and the TurboDockII in my possession I spent a half hour comparing them for sonic differences and couldn't hear it. To my ears the sound quality of my iPod's amped line out was exactly the same with both docks._

 

Oh yeah i forgot about the size. this is why i used the sik instead of the pocketdock last year - because the pocketdock was too large for the cases I was using, and the skin i had kept popping the pocketdock off.


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## walkman666

Well, I have been using a Sik Din with a 6" cardas mini-to-mini and then a Sik Ram for over a well over a year in my portable set-up, and am going to try out the esteemed TurboDock II and a high-end mini-to-mini (Black Diamond). I will report on sonic differences when I get them. I am inclined to try to improve potential weak spots in any areas of my systems, and I'll see if these upgrades make a difference. Obviously, I _want _them to, but I'll do a compare & contrast and see if I really can...Hoping so!

 - walk


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## TURBO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Could you address the poster who asked if a Pocket Dock without the USB or Firewire cable attached would produce the same result?

 LSMFT
 Steve_

 

I think, no. It wont produce the same results, due to the previous explanation and all feedbacks I get daily from all around the world users, that compares them. 

 Now, it would be nice if someone that has both, can do a public comparison. I would appreciate that. Thanks to all.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_I think, no. It wont produce the same results, due to the previous explanation and all feedbacks I get daily from all around the world users, that compares them._

 

What previous explanation? My question is, how can firewire interfere with the the line out if there's no firewire cable plugged in? I'm not trying to grill you, it's just that your responses are very nebulous.

 Thanks
 Steve


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## bhd812

RobG check the meet section for the thread...


 this thread is getting ugly I am out!


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_So if there was a reason for a reduction in SQ (which I hear) it might be due to the way an ipod handles power consumption versus how a CDP does? Just speculating, but let's say the same DAC is in an ipod as a CDP, and you play both with the same track. Wouldn't the ipod still suffer due to not having as beefy a power plant behind it as a standalone would?_

 

Generally, battery operation is cleaner sounding than plugged in. But that is a very tiny difference, and I'm sure CD players make allowances for that.

 The more likely reason is that the level produced by the iPod is a little bit lower than that of the CD player. Your ears would read quieter as being poorer quality. I had to fiddle a little with my cmoy to get the volume level to match the CD player.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## TURBO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_What previous explanation? My question is, how can firewire interfere with the the line out if there's no firewire cable plugged in? I'm not trying to grill you, it's just that your responses are very nebulous.

 Thanks
 Steve_

 

No prob. Hope, this answer your question. 

 There is no firewire cable connected, but there is a firewire circuit in the player itself, that even thou, you don’t have it connected, it induces a loop back noise when the player is on. This is transfered to the pins of the connector. If this is nebulous, I dont know what would be my next project. Thank you.

 TURBO


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I knew "There's something wrong with your ears/equipment." was coming along here somewhere...

 I have a Phillips 963SA. Nothing wrong with it at all.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Apparently there is... no offense meant, but if your iPod equals it in sound quality it is time to look for a new CD player. I have never heard the Phillips, but I have heard the iPod and decent HiFi CD player absolutely destroys it.


----------



## BlindTiger

Dpippel, thank you for your honest assessment.
 the reason why I bought my Pocketdock was because it was available locally. No mail order, no paypal, just greenbacks. and at a decent price of $26.
 If you can get it locally, try it, don't like it? return it and tell them Oh, I didn't know the line out needed an amp or some excuse.
 I like mine.


----------



## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Generally, battery operation is cleaner sounding than plugged in. But that is a very tiny difference, and I'm sure CD players make allowances for that.

 The more likely reason is that the level produced by the iPod is a little bit lower than that of the CD player. Your ears would read quieter as being poorer quality. I had to fiddle a little with my cmoy to get the volume level to match the CD player.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Yep, volume matching is always the hard part in doing comparos - we had a bear of a time doing it at the NYC meet for our DAC shootout and we just ended up giving up lol. Honestly, my DAC-ah ended up sounded the best (when I KNEW it couldn't be the best, right?) over Chords and Graces and Headrooms and such, just because its (non-variable) lineout had the loudest signal. At home I try to always volume match, but as you'd agree I'm certain, it's not always an exact science (unless I had a test tone and a db meter!)


----------



## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Apparently there is... no offense meant, but if your iPod equals it in sound quality it is time to look for a new CD player. I have never heard the Phillips, but I have heard the iPod and decent HiFi CD player absolutely destroys it._

 

Alriiiight, bigshot's Philips wants to be made. We start by having her run a couple'o laps to get the junk out of the trunk, then we'll pimp her out with Nordost ICs & ACs, make her float gracefully on some pretty Pandafeet, finish off with some powerconditioning for enhanced gloss & shine... and only have find some room for the 30" LCD (plus two 14"ers in the back) for streetcred. Let's get it on!


----------



## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Apparently there is... no offense meant, but if your iPod equals it in sound quality it is time to look for a new CD player. I have never heard the Phillips, but I have heard the iPod and decent HiFi CD player absolutely destroys it._

 

I agree. My Toshiba 3980 destroys the 5G, and my old "Tushi" 3960 destroyed the 3G, so that's the basis of my thinking that CDPs kick iPods around, but again, YMMV.


----------



## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_I agree. My Toshiba 3980 destroys the 5G, and my old "Tushi" 3960 destroyed the 3G, so that's the basis of my thinking that CDPs kick iPods around_

 

I agree too. It is a matter of powersupply & line signal. Nevertheless it should be noted the iPod can sound exceptionally well if you base a portable rig on it - with ALAC material, a good line-out such as Turbo's, nice IC, decent amp & good phones. It will sound better than most peoples' home system. Likely not the majority of home systems represented on head-fi, but regular listeners' systems. You can still beat it with insane "portable" rigs such as RnB's I guess, but it is pretty good.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_The Phillips player is well thought of in audiophile circles._

 

Must be good then! Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_It's [the Wolfson DAC] more than enough to match the DAC in most home CD players._

 

Since when do we have 'most home CD players' around here? This is a forum dedicated to HiFi.

 I am afraid that you are drawing the wrong conclusion from your observations. You listen to the Philips and the iPod and hear no difference. For some reason you have assumed that this means that the iPod DAC is just _that good_. I would bet very large stacks of money [if I had any to bet] that it is more accurate that your Philips is just _that bad_.

 The same Wolfson DAC that is in the iPod is also in the Chaintech AV710. I am quite familiar with both as this is the sound card I use in my computer and my Wife owns a 4G iPod. They sound nice. They do not sound anywhere near any decent HiFi CD player I have heard however. My Eastsound sometimes complains about being in the same room as the Wolfson DAC in my computer.


----------



## grandenigma1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grandenigma1* 
_The turbodock is nothing more then a convenience at a decent price for those that like to swap mini cables._

 

I think this sums it up quite nicely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_ My Eastsound sometimes complains about being in the same room as the Wolfson DAC in my computer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wait the E5 can speak English? Now I am really impressed


----------



## walkman666

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grandenigma1* 
_The turbodock is nothing more then a convenience at a decent price for those that like to swap mini cables. I think this sums it up quite nicely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

IMHO, I would personally be so very careful to not want to offend anyone, for example, the manufacturer who has posted within this very thread about the product that he makes, unless I personally tried it out and came to that conclusion. It seems so discourteous. Perhaps you have tried it out and therefore this is how you hear it, then fine.

 I have placed an order and will try it out. I look forward to it, but until then, I do not have any first-hand way to assess it, so I won't.

 - walk


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Oliver * 
_You can still beat it with insane "portable" rigs such as RnB's I guess, but it is pretty good._

 


 Thanks for the compliment lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was actually contempating a way to create a transportable "Balanced" rig.
 I was looking into balanced dac sources and a balanced amp. I already lug a power conditioner around with me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 good thing I stopped myself. As my current one is already pretty unwieldly. But the sound is fantastic.

 Im not too much of a fan of iPod's sound. but I havent heard the 5th gen, which I hear alot of praise about. As long as I have the Micro dac as my source, Im a happy camper.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *walkman666* 
_IMHO, I would personally be so very careful to not want to offend anyone, for example, the manufacturer who has posted within this very thread about the product that he makes, unless I personally tried it out and came to that conclusion. It seems so discourteous. Perhaps you have tried it out and therefore this is how you hear it, then fine.

 I have placed an order and will try it out. I look forward to it, but until then, I do not have any first-hand way to assess it, so I won't.

 - walk_

 

Yes, zach, you need to be careful to not offend the member of the trade who hasn't supported the site by being registered as such...


----------



## grandenigma1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *walkman666* 
_IMHO, I would personally be so very careful to not want to offend anyone, for example, the manufacturer who has posted within this very thread about the product that he makes, unless I personally tried it out and came to that conclusion. It seems so discourteous. Perhaps you have tried it out and therefore this is how you hear it, then fine.

 I have placed an order and will try it out. I look forward to it, but until then, I do not have any first-hand way to assess it, so I won't.

 - walk_

 

Not sure why one would take offense to me stating that it is a convienence and a decent price but ok.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_I was actually contempating a way to create a transportable "Balanced" rig.
 I was looking into balanced dac sources and a balanced amp. I already lug a power conditioner around with me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 good thing I stopped myself. As my current one is already pretty unwieldly. But the sound is fantastic.

 Im not too much of a fan of iPod's sound. but I havent heard the 5th gen, which I hear alot of praise about. As long as I have the Micro dac as my source, Im a happy camper._

 

So you will be getting the turbodock xlr edition then


----------



## tkam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* 
_Yes, zach, you need to be careful to not offend the member of the trade who hasn't supported the site by being registered as such..._

 

Haha


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I did a test with my CD player and my iPod loaded with an AIFF rip off the CD. I compared the sound of the CD's headphone out to the iPod's through the Pocket Dock and a cmoy. Wanna guess what I found out? Yup... The AIFF file on the iPod sounded exactly like the original CD.

 If your Pocket Dock sounded muddy, or "got in the way", I think there must have been some gorf on the connector.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 what player where you using, what was the bit rate of the iPod music file?

 I think thats great news for you wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 but Im sure there are others that may not have the same experience as you.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* 
_Yes, zach, you need to be careful to not offend the member of the trade who hasn't supported the site by being registered as such..._

 

AFAIK being a member of the trade does nothing to support head-fi. It merely imposes restrictions. The people who are supporting head-fi are those that buy threads in mall-fi and contribute.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grandenigma1* 
_Not sure why one would take offense to me stating that it is a convienence and a decent price but ok.



 So you will be getting the turbodock xlr edition then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 sure, that would be an awesome product. But I was thinking more along the lines of the lavry like yours your posts about it have been very tempting. But its currently unattainable for me at thie moment. lavry plus GSX = drool.





 my intitial set up I was contemplating as saving up for an all in one headroom balanced dac. but I believe it is easier on the wallet to just build incrementally.


----------



## grandenigma1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_sure, that would be an awesome product. But I was thinking more along the lines of the lavry like yours your posts about it have been very tempting. But its currently unattainable for me at thie moment. lavry plus GSX = drool.



_

 

come now whats another $1k in debt... its all investments right?


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grandenigma1* 
_come now whats another $1k in debt... its all investments right?_

 

stop it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I see a lavry and GSX in the future, but maybe not till 2007 or so.


----------



## grandenigma1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_stop it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I see a lavry and GSX in the future, but maybe not till 2007 or so. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Well in that case only $2.6k but you better act now as the intro for the gsx likley wont last turbodock


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_what player where you using, what was the bit rate of the iPod music file?_

 

iPod 3g and 5g. AIFF.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_iPod 3g and 5g. AIFF.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 what was the bit rate aiff? and what was the cd player you were using? what headphones?


----------



## grawk

AIFF is lossless, it's like wav.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* 
_AIFF is lossless, it's like wav._

 


 lossless to cd is like comparing cd to cd. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I personally run wav only on my iRiver.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Must be good then!Since when do we have 'most home CD players' around here? This is a forum dedicated to HiFi._

 

Last time I checked CD was a high fidelity format. Some of us don't judge sound by the cost or the complexity. We judge it by how well it's designed and how it performs. it's perfectly possible to put together an incredibly good sounding system on a mid-price budget. You just have to know what counts and what doesn't so you don't waste your money chasing specs instead of sound.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_what was the bit rate aiff? and what was the cd player you were using? what headphones?_

 

16/44.1
 Phillips 963SA and a mid range Sony and a mid range Yamaha
 Sennheiser HD-590 and my home rig and the pro rig of a friend of mine.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_16/44.1
 Phillips 963SA and a mid range Sony and a mid range Yamaha
 Sennheiser HD-590 and my home rig and the pro rig of a friend of mine.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 interesting, I do not believe the same result would have happened if something like a meridian player went up against an iPod.

 I know that my iPod mini doesnt come close to my budget cd player in terms of sound quality. The mini chops off too much extension both ways.


----------



## bigshot

Well, my results have held true with two ipods, an SACD player and two midrange CD players. Are you using the line out from the mini to compare?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## RnB180

i have a hardwired dock


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_Turbodocks are more than wires and jacks. It's a passive hi-fi device with no interference / noise / hiss at all induced by over looping of the device usb/firewire circuit or connection to it from the PC. The connector uses a proprietary no public tecnology that I am developing called "MFET". It stands for Maximum Flow of Electrons Transferring. This technology works at the molecular level. This technology is not visible but you can hear it. That's all I can say for now.

 These connectors do not sound like the competition and are not made like them. Period. That's why. They are more than what you can see on the outside. Thank you.

 TURBO_

 

Do you believe your own psychobabble?


----------



## grandenigma1

I believe in pixies and unicorns grawk


----------



## Jahn

Let's not get ugly folks, c'mon. We can agree to disagree but I smell the trollhounds a'comin'.


----------



## AdamWill

I _hate_ it when I can't get my electrons to flow maximally. No matter how hard you whip them they just want to sit around eating chips.


----------



## K2Grey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_Turbodocks are more than wires and jacks. It's a passive hi-fi device with no interference / noise / hiss at all induced by over looping of the device usb/firewire circuit or connection to it from the PC. The connector uses a proprietary no public tecnology that I am developing called "MFET". It stands for Maximum Flow of Electrons Transferring. This technology works at the molecular level. This technology is not visible but you can hear it. That's all I can say for now.

 These connectors do not sound like the competition and are not made like them. Period. That's why. They are more than what you can see on the outside. Thank you._

 

I'm impressed by the invisible technology.


----------



## Jahn

I dunno why but every thread in this subforum always goes down in flames, and the stench always smells the same. Poor thread should have hid in the Portable subforum where the merits of a dock line out wouldn't have gotten hit with shrapnel from the cable crossfire lol.


----------



## grawk

My comment had nothing to do with the audibility of cables and docks, but rather the complete and utter bull$%$# he was claiming about what makes his better.


----------



## RnB180

interesting description Turbo. Though it might be a bit late, you may want to becareful with your wording. I would think there are many open minded folks here on the cables forum, but sometimes a description can borderline between audiophilia and rainbow foil, you should probably be a bit more careful about that.

 Ive found it most helpful to just let the product speak for itself. There definately is a large enough userbase with your product. Not to say I also appreciate your more in depth descriptions. Maybe different wording would help. But I am a little confused about the molecular level thing. I dont expect you to explain anything proprietary, but a better explaination may be more helpful then a vague one in a situation like this. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_There is no firewire cable connected, but there is a firewire circuit in the player itself, that even thou, you don’t have it connected, it induces a loop back noise when the player is on. This is transfered to the pins of the connector. If this is nebulous, I dont know what would be my next project. Thank you._

 

Please forgive me if I have misinterpreted the Turbo dock in anyway. Regarding the whole ground loop discussion with the pins. If a pin is attached to the receptors, electronically, all the pin does is act as an extension of the receptor and nothing more, since there is nothing connected to the pin? none of the pins touch the ground pins, and none of the pins touch each other, I do not understand how this creates a loop of any kind.

 see ya around.
 myo


----------



## Jahn

I really don't take offense at a builder saying anything about their product they like - heck they can say it has 3D wedges to create a live concert hall in my head, or that mahoghany improves the performance of a headphone amp, or electrons flow a certain direction in my cable to make it sound better plugged in one way or the other. All I know is that we're all still bottom line in that the SQ is the real deal, right? And the TDII delivers - it ain't no shakti stone, because it actually sounds better, no matter if the builder said he shook shakti stones over the dock to bless it and that improves performance (which he didn't say, so don't quote me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) if you believe what Turbo said is basically shakti stone-level, that's your right to think so, and your right to buy a TDII or not based on that comment or not. me? i'll buy it and enjoy it.


----------



## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* 
_Do you believe your own psychobabble?_

 

Grawk, you're talking to the Cheshire Cat. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And it's technobabble, if at all. Turbo makes a great product, I enjoy its benefits every day I have my rig with me. I admit I did not put it to the most critical test on my Cosmic yet, but it sounds much better than the regular Apple Dock (first one, 3G), and it is MUCH more convenient than my Sik Din. So please, if you don't own one to complain about, don't diss the maker or his ideas about his own product.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_ All I know is that we're all still bottom line in that the SQ is the real deal, right? And the TDII delivers_

 

couldnt put it any better.


----------



## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Thanks for the compliment lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was actually contempating a way to create a transportable "Balanced" rig._

 

RnB: Hi, my name is RnB, and I'm a portaphile. 
 Group: Hi RnB!

 Ok, if your current rig is insane, what shall we call this? Frightening, maybe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Aww, forget it, I'm just envious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 even once my SuperMacro arrives my rig will not nearly be as insane as yours. Apple! Give us a digital out on the next iPod!


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Oliver * 
_RnB: Hi, my name is RnB, and I'm a portaphile. 
 Group: Hi RnB!

 Ok, if your current rig is insane, what shall we call this? Frightening, maybe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Aww, forget it, I'm just envious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 even once my SuperMacro arrives my rig will not nearly be as insane as yours. Apple! Give us a digital out on the next iPod!_

 


 well its all in perspective. I would not call my current portable rig insane. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 do I enjoy the sound. Yep. Insane? not really. Insane is the tugging around a full fledged davry black, iRiver WAV optical out, and a balanced amp with a power conditioner.


----------



## BlindTiger

I still don't understand how EMI and RFI can get into the equation if the power supply side of the connector is not being used. This leading to sound degradation.
 Looking at the pics of the JAE connector, it has pins. Unless all those pins are removed leaving only the three Line out pins, then maybe. But I don't see how the Sik Ram Din or Pocketdock is any different IF those Power pins are not being used.
 Maybe someone can do a Pepsi Challenge test. (for those who remember that ad campaign)


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Last time I checked CD was a high fidelity format. Some of us don't judge sound by the cost or the complexity. We judge it by how well it's designed and how it performs. it's perfectly possible to put together an incredibly good sounding system on a mid-price budget. You just have to know what counts and what doesn't so you don't waste your money chasing specs instead of sound._

 

Don't put words in my mouth. All I am saying is that 'most CD players' is not really what we are talking about. Most people have low-fi sony/panasonic crap in their homes... some might move to a mid-fi stuff and a very few care enough to experiment with hi-fi equipment. The iPod might sound better than what most people have in their homes but it does not hold a candle to what most of the head-fi'ers are using.

 I am full aware that it is possible to create a great system on a budget. My first setup was an art di/o dac and a pimeta headphone amp. This competed well with gear costing much more. My current setup is also quite affordable when you consider the performance.

 As for not wasting your money chasing specs instead of sound, that is exactly what I am advocating... trust your ears not some measurement.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Don't put words in my mouth. All I am saying is that 'most CD players' is not really what we are talking about. Most people have low-fi sony/panasonic crap in their homes... some might move to a mid-fi stuff and a very few care enough to experiment with hi-fi equipment. The iPod might sound better than what most people have in their homes but it does not hold a candle to what most of the head-fi'ers are using.

 I am full aware that it is possible to create a great system on a budget. My first setup was an art di/o dac and a pimeta headphone amp. This competed well with gear costing much more. My current setup is also quite affordable when you consider the performance.

 As for chasing specs instead of sound, that is exactly what I am advocating... trust your ears not some measurement. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 


 I agree most head fiers here have a different interpretation of what is classified as mid fi or hi fi. This is a hi fi website 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What I use, I would consider entry budget fi, but someone outside of head fi would probably think otherwise.

 pics of the player at the so cal meet via edwoods pictures.
 onix xcd-99
 and thanks to grandenigmas very informative tutorial
opamp upgrade

 iPod doesnt come close to the player.


----------



## bigshot

I'm with BlindTiger. I still don't understand how a cable that's not even connected can affect the quality of the line out. Besides, the two reside side by side inside the iPod itself. I also don't understand how the gauge of a quarter inch long wire inside the dongle can make a lick of difference when the ribbon connector inside the iPod is longer and just as thin. I don't think I'm going to get a straight answer on this.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_I really don't take offense at a builder saying anything about their product they like - heck they can say it has 3D wedges to create a live concert hall in my head, or that mahoghany improves the performance of a headphone amp, or electrons flow a certain direction in my cable to make it sound better plugged in one way or the other._

 

You are a model of tolerance. I'm afraid I'm not as patient as you with snake oil. When someone lies to me to try to get my money, I usually get mad.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## TURBO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_You are a model of tolerance. I'm afraid I'm not as patient as you with snake oil. When someone lies to me to try to get my money, I usually get mad.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 Just, for the record. I am an engineer. I dont need money. I do it for fun. It's a hobby that allows me to research on how to improve some products. I work on them at night and weekends when I am not traveling. I dont need to lie. You can keep your money. I dont need it. Thank you.

 PS: This is my last post on this thread. TIA

 TURBO


----------



## grandenigma1

Can you tell us any more about how this nanotechnology allows the electrons to flow better?

 I am assumeing you are carrying this over from some project at work? Ive never heard of anything like it and am curious as to how it works.


----------



## walkman666

This is real shame...bigshot, do you really need to make those kind of accusations? That seems harsh and inappropriate. If you don't want to buy that product, that is your prerogative, but it seems disrespectful to make the comments you made. I'd think it's more appropriate to say it directly to that person, privately, in-person preferably.

 Your comments also have knock-on effects for other consumers who may wish to try these products. It's certainly not "words of encouragement" for a businessperson to continue to manufacture when they are accused publicly of lying. However, if you have some real data, as a result of your own manufacturing, or dissection of said product, then great -- it's great to have a professional debate, but this does not feel that way. I understand you are disputing some claims, but without any data presented and with such harsh language, it does not see "right," and now has also created some ill-will. I don't see the benefit. IMHO, there are better ways to have made your point.

 - walk


----------



## Kameleon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_Just, for the record. I am an engineer. I dont need money. I do it for fun. It's a hobby that allows me to research on how to improve some products. I work on them at night and weekends when I am not traveling. I dont need to lie. You can keep your money. I dont need it. Thank you.

 PS: This is my last post on this thread. TIA

 TURBO_

 

I'd just like to say I respect your decision here immensely. Thanks for not being drawn in by the trolls


----------



## grawk

Yes, there's certainly no need to defend rediculous claims we all know are false...go back to just saying that people should judge for themselves, and not make up reasons why it is supposed to sound better.


----------



## RobG

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_Just, for the record. I am an engineer. I dont need money. I do it for fun. It's a hobby that allows me to research on how to improve some products. I work on them at night and weekends when I am not traveling. I dont need to lie. You can keep your money. I dont need it. Thank you.

 PS: This is my last post on this thread. TIA

 TURBO_

 

LOL - I tried ending this thread a long time ago....and I started the darn thing


----------



## K2Grey

Edit:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_The connector uses a proprietary no public tecnology that I am developing called "MFET". It stands for Maximum Flow of Electrons Transferring. This technology works at the molecular level. This technology is not visible but you can hear it. That's all I can say for now._

 

I suppose having invisible technology is very useful for improving products. While I am a layman I can perceive that this technology would be of groundbreaking nature, and I'm sure that you have made a tremendous contribution to whichever company you work for. I look forward to hearing more news about this in the future.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_Just, for the record. I am an engineer. I dont need money. I do it for fun. It's a hobby that allows me to research on how to improve some products. I work on them at night and weekends when I am not traveling. I dont need to lie. You can keep your money. I dont need it. Thank you.

 PS: This is my last post on this thread. TIA

 TURBO_

 


 Moving a bit off topic, 
 Turbo, I didnt know you were an engineer? thats pretty cool, what do you do exactly?

 Regarding your products. I wouldnt stress it, Im sure there are many others that are fully happy with the dock. Bigshot doesnt believe in a lot of things, which makes me wonder why he even visits an audiophile forum, everything in audiophilia including high end sources to high end cables to isolation footers are direct opposition to all his opinions.. So I wouldnt take his posts personal, debates like this are the nature of the biz.

 see ya round.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_Just, for the record. I am an engineer. I dont need money. I do it for fun. It's a hobby that allows me to research on how to improve some products. I work on them at night and weekends when I am not traveling. I dont need to lie. You can keep your money. I dont need it. Thank you.

 PS: This is my last post on this thread. TIA

 TURBO_

 

That's a great way to avoid answering questions about your product! I wasn't even talking about you.

 shaking head in amazement
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *walkman666* 
_This is real shame...bigshot, do you really need to make those kind of accusations?_

 

I asked him questions directly in another post but he didn't respond to that one. He responded to a reply to a completely different person that wasn't even related to him. I've got nothing to apologize for.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Bigshot doesnt believe in a lot of things, which makes me wonder why he even visits an audiophile forum, everything in audiophilia including high end sources to high end cables to isolation footers are direct opposition to all his opinions._

 

I'd be happy to answer that.

 I've been a hifi nut since the early 1970s. My brother had a Macintosh system with a nice TEAC Tascam reel to reel that he let me play and experiment with. I learned a lot and I learned even more over the years. I've got an extensive library of music, and a system that I have carefully assembled over the years. It isn't expensive, but it sounds incredible, because I carefully selected each component. I work in a business that calls on me to engineer recordings, so I have a good ear. I've put a lot of thought and research into this stuff... I've got a very good idea of what matters and what doesn't.

 I enjoy chatting with people who are hifi nuts and music fans like myself. I especially like people who are just putting together their first rig, because they're really enthusiastic and are eager to think things out. When I see people like this being fed sales pitch instead of solid horse sense, I feel the need to add my say. I apologize if that upsets people's apple carts. If someone has a product that they want people to support, they should go to the effort to explain why their product is better and how it works, rather than relying on vague technobabble and subjective testimonials. I'm not the only one. Go back and read the posts in this thread and you'll see some very cleverly disguised irony in a couple of those posts.

 Perhaps you think everyone's opinion is equal, and we should all agree to disagree. Well, I happen to like it when people back up what they say with some sort of solid evidence. I learn from people who disagree with me when they argue on point. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. As far as I'm concerned, if someone has a problem with me disagreeing with them, that's their problem.

 See ya
 Steve


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## Jahn

Bigshot you are right, I'm a bit forgiving when it comes to opinions either way, because I really have no personal experience or skills or instruments to draw on, so I rely on the kindness of strangers' opinions here, and my own ears when I own something.

 Since I can never back up anything I say except to say "that's the way I hear it" I'm the worst guy to try and get into an objective discussion with hehe. But it's all good - we need all sorts in head-fi to feed all sorts of inquiring minds, including yours and everyone else's opinions.

 So in other words, "It's all good."


----------



## RnB180

done with thread


----------



## RobG

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_
 If someone is to buy a tweak, what you do not hear, the listener may hear. 

 See ya round._

 


 SO true. A basic example came from a digital audio class I took. The instructor asked everyone in the class to raise a hand and did a simple frequency sweep over the monitors working upwards. When we couldn't hear the signal any more, we were asked to put our hand down. Needless to say, not everyone put their hand down at the same time. Again, a basic example that I think speaks to Myo's point. Ears, just as people, are different. That is why you have to agree to disagree...even if its "not your problem."

 Listen long and prosper! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Rob


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_however, if an actual listener or user praises a product, I only have a problem when a skeptic comes in a crusade to forcefeed his opinion as fact down the throats of unsuspecting individuals_

 

It isn't forcefeeding an opinion as fact. It's the presenting of facts to support an opinion. And it provides context to the comments of listeners.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## RnB180

done with thread


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_It isn't forcefeeding an opinion as fact. It's the presenting of facts to support an opinion. And it provides context to the comments of listeners.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


*"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
 -Albert Einstein *


----------



## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_*"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
 -Albert Einstein *_

 

That's an interesting hypothesis
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry, couldn't pass up geek humor!


----------



## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Id just like to think that studio work and the hobby of audiophiles are two different venues._

 

I agree...studio work is about actual, measurable, repeatable results; while audiophilia is about the highly subjective enjoyment of music/music reproduction. Nothing wrong with either one, but when it comes to setting up my own system, I find the studio guy's "these components have identical THD" a lot more useful than the audiophile's "this unit has more palpable air".

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Why not just let others enjoy their hobby?_

 

The thing I _don't_ like about the audiophile world is the mindless call to perpetually upgrade. Even happened in this thread...Bigshot makes a comment about how he's perfectly satisfied with the sound of his iPod, and he gets jumped on with a resounding chorus of how he needs to get a new CD player.

 How is that "letting others enjoy their hobby"? Some guy comes along with the heretical notion that a $200 CD player can provide just as much musical enjoyment as a $4000 one and _he's_ the one who's not "letting others enjoy their hobby"?

 Now, I'm not down on anyone for buying a G08 or fancy cables or whatever if they can afford it...certainly there's plenty of wealthy guys on Head-Fi who can and that's fine. Unfortunately, I'm afraid there's also a lot of people who really can't afford it, but end up maxing out their credit cards or dumping their college/retirement funds just because the herd at Head-Fi posted about the "night & day" differences their latest upgrades provided.

 Ahem.

 In a feeble attempt to now get this thread back on topic, I'd like to add that I don't think Turbo is guilty of any of this. As has been pointed out already, The TurboDock II is small, portable, it locks, it's handmade in the USA, and your $$$ go to a Head-Fier who's pretty cool. It does everything I need it to do and nothing I don't. Sure, Turbo's made some claims that are impossible to substantiate, but his unit is priced lower than most of the competing units on the market, so in addition to the above benefits, he essentially throws in his invisible MFET technology for free. What's not to like?


----------



## RobG

When I made this topic, alllll I wanted to know was if the Turbodock (or any similar product) was a worthwhile upgrade...if it actually improved the sound.

 That's it.


----------



## RnB180

clarke,


 I love ya man, but I do not believe your argument works for me.
 it misinterprets things.

 See ya round.
 I am done with this thread.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_the audiophile hobby is about 1 million time more anal then studios. But thats what the home hobby is all about, squeezing the last bit of performance one's budget allows out of one's listening set up, a new tweak may or may n ot work, Im not one to tell someone that a certain tweak will or willnot work. but at the same time, this is what makes the hobby fun. Why not just let others enjoy their hobby?_

 

That sounds more like OCD than a hobby to me!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## RobG

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_That sounds more like OCD than a hobby to me!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

************THREAD CLOSED! (FOR THE THIRD TIME)***********


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clarke68* 
_The thing I don't like about the audiophile world is the mindless call to perpetually upgrade._

 

Dontcha love "advertorial"? There's an awful lot of selling disguised as information in audiophile publications. Why shouldn't it extend to the internet too? The only problem is that the internet allows for two way communication. Propaganda doesn't work so well when questions can be raised. We all know where that leads.

 DISCLAIMER: This post is a comment in GENERAL on audiophile information. It is not directed at anyone in particular. If you choose to apply it to yourself, that's your choice.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## saint.panda

The technical explanations remind me of those pertaining the bybee quantum purifier but I want to try out the TDII if it's as good as people report it to be, and it's fairly inexpensive, too. I've been itching to add an amp to the Ipod anyway.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_I really don't take offense at a builder saying anything about their product they like - heck they can say it has 3D wedges to create a live concert hall in my head, or that mahoghany improves the performance of a headphone amp, or electrons flow a certain direction in my cable to make it sound better plugged in one way or the other. All I know is that we're all still bottom line in that the SQ is the real deal, right? And the TDII delivers - it ain't no shakti stone, because it actually sounds better, no matter if the builder said he shook shakti stones over the dock to bless it and that improves performance (which he didn't say, so don't quote me ) if you believe what Turbo said is basically shakti stone-level, that's your right to think so, and your right to buy a TDII or not based on that comment or not. me? i'll buy it and enjoy it._

 

Thanks Jahn, it's really fortunate to have people like you around in threads like this one.


----------



## Medikit

What do cigarette lighter power thingy do you guys use to power your ipod when you're using the turbodock?


----------



## grawk

You can't power your ipod externally while using a turbodock.


----------



## Medikit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* 
_You can't power your ipod externally while using a turbodock._


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Why not just let others enjoy their hobby?_

 

 Why indeed? Perhaps some people have a deep rooted psychological need to spoil other's fun, or to just be critical, perhaps to show how smart they are or to feel superior.

 DISCLAIMER: This post is a comment in GENERAL on the various threads in which these types of arguments seem to arise. It is not directed at anyone in particular. If you choose to apply it to yourself, that's your choice.


----------



## AdamWill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clarke68* 
_In a feeble attempt to now get this thread back on topic, I'd like to add that I don't think Turbo is guilty of any of this. As has been pointed out already, The TurboDock II is small, portable, it locks, it's handmade in the USA, and your $$$ go to a Head-Fier who's pretty cool. It does everything I need it to do and nothing I don't. Sure, Turbo's made some claims that are impossible to substantiate, but his unit is priced lower than most of the competing units on the market, so in addition to the above benefits, he essentially throws in his invisible MFET technology for free. What's not to like?_

 

The fact that he has to make the ridiculous technobabble claims at all. If anything the fact that the product can compete fine on its own merits only makes the technobabble _more_ egregious. Everyone agrees his dock does what it's supposed to, comes in a good form factor, and is competitively priced: why not just sell it on that basis? Why add yet more technobabble pollution to the festering swamp that is audio geekdom when you don't even _NEED_ to to get any sales?!


----------



## RnB180

edit


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## K2Grey

I must agree with AdamWill. I will be getting a 5G iPod sometime soon and from all accounts the TurboDock is smaller and cheaper than the PocketDock, which to my knowledge is the only competition (since the Sik has a cable on it). As such it is the superior choice. Yet I feel that there is a certain point when a strict price/performance ratio analysis comes 2nd to supporting a seller who, while lacking a presence on head-fi forums, nevertheless has visible (as opposed to invisible) technology.


----------



## RnB180

done with thread.


----------



## bigshot

To be honest, the only reason I support a manufacturer is if they are honest and provide a superior product. I could care less how they choose to advertise.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_To be honest, the only reason I support a manufacturer is if they are honest and provide a superior product. I could care less how they choose to advertise.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

i go even further and support a manufacturer as long as they provide a superior product and their wares didn't fall out of the back of a white van. they can say what they want for all I care, really - who cares if Dr. Bobo starts selling his own cans, claiming the ghost of einstein gave him the design and his spirit drives the magnets with spiritual powers? It can be honest delusion or dishonest snake oiling (or the TRUTH dun dun DUN!)- I don't have to believe it, I just have to buy em and enjoy em if it sounds great hehe.


----------



## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Medikit* 
_



_

 

Don't be sad, plenty of folks actually don't like anything but the line out at the dock. back when the sik was big, plenty of people even cut off the firewire dongle lol! Cutting it off didn't do anything for the SQ - it was just annoying having it hang around when you never used it. Personally, the only time I charge something on the go at the same time I'm listening to it is when I'm in the car, but then I use the usb charger with my FM transmitter for the ipod at that point.


----------



## walkman666

I am one such exemplar of someone who has cut off the firewire charger of his sik ram (and formerly my sik din). I am now going to try the TBII and a diamond cable mini-to-mini in a quest for improved SQ. I am looking forward to it!

 - walk


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jahn* 
_i go even further and support a manufacturer as long as they provide a superior product and their wares didn't fall out of the back of a white van. they can say what they want for all I care, really - who cares if Dr. Bobo starts selling his own cans, claiming the ghost of einstein gave him the design and his spirit drives the magnets with spiritual powers? It can be honest delusion or dishonest snake oiling (or the TRUTH dun dun DUN!)- I don't have to believe it, I just have to buy em and enjoy em if it sounds great hehe._

 

For me, when they start disrespecting me by trying to foist bull dump on me, I'm outta there. If they have to resort to tricks to sell their product, there must be something wrong with it. I prefer to deal with HONEST and KNOWLEDGEABLE people. You can have the sheisters and snake oil salesmen.

 To be perfectly honest, whenever a salesman tries to pull the wool over my eyes, I make a point of letting him know that I know what he's doing. That usually sends them running.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Jahn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_For me, when they start disrespecting me by trying to foist bull dump on me, I'm outta there._

 

Yep, we just have different tolerance levels that's all. I'm certain there are even some head-fiers here who wouldn't mind getting a superior product even if it DID fall out of a white van (clones of you-know-what still in production comes to mind) and that's where I would put my foot down. Your foot is just on a different Twister spot, that's all, nothing wrong with that.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_To be honest, the only reason I support a manufacturer is if they are honest and provide a superior product. I could care less how they choose to advertise.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 Hey Steve,
 Thats respectable,
 But all it takes is like $20 bucks to open a short mall fi as and sell legitimately on head fi, it's not going to break your wallet. Not only does it make it honest, it also helps support the forum that is actually helping the seller make money. I believe it is indeed a way to show some appreciation to give back just a little bit. To sell massively underground and reaping so much profit is somewhat dishonest IMO. There is a reason why it has to be all underground correct?


----------



## Dimitris

I would suggest trying out the dock. I did and i really like it. Its much more 3D dimentional than the regular Ipod cradle. I dont care what is inside (except anything nuclear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) I just know it sounds better.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Hey Steve,
 Thats respectable,
 But all it takes is like $20 bucks to open a short mall fi as and sell legitimately on head fi, it's not going to break your wallet. Not only does it make it honest, it also helps support the forum that is actually helping the seller make money. I believe it is indeed a way to show some appreciation to give back just a little bit._

 

I suppose so... If the seller doesn't contribute in other ways, like posting useful information. I happen to think that the people who post in internet forums deserve thanks from the folks who own them for providing free content. I'm not big on "donating" to a business model designed to sell advertising space based on my contributed content. They're already getting a donation in the postings. That's just my opinion... However, if it's just a hit and run sort of advertisement, you are absolutely correct that they should go ahead and pay the fees.

 Three dimensional, invisible, sound molecules... I'm gonna have to get me one o'these!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## philodox

Left this thread for a while, five pages later and... Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Three dimensional, invisible, sound molecules... I'm gonna have to get me one o'these!_

 

Still being an ass I see. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If you read Turbo's post again and notice how he is skirting around the explination of his 'MFET' technology you will come to one of two conclusions. Either he is selling snake oil or he doesn't want to give too much information to avoid scavengers copying his idea. There may also be a language barrier there. Is it really so hard to believe that there could be some sort of treatment or process that wouldn't necissarily be visible? I mean, metal reacts with oxygen... maybe he is sealing it in a special way. You've heard of cryogenic treatments right? Maybe it is something like that. Who knows? Why not speculate on it with absolutely no information and shoot off your mouth? Sounds like a plan. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do know one thing, Turbo is a nice guy, and he made the mistake of coming in here and defending his product. He should have just let it be and avoided getting attacked by you. He is not even posting in this thread anymore and you are still tacking witty one liners at the ends of your messages.

 What's the deal man? Why can't you seem to play nice around here? Half the time it seems like you are arguing just for the sake of it and if someone says something that you can't immediately stomp down you just ignore the post. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_My question is, how can firewire interfere with the the line out if there's no firewire cable plugged in? I'm not trying to grill you, it's just that your responses are very nebulous._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TURBO* 
_No prob. Hope, this answer your question. 

 There is no firewire cable connected, but there is a firewire circuit in the player itself, that even thou, you don’t have it connected, it induces a loop back noise when the player is on. This is transfered to the pins of the connector. If this is nebulous, I dont know what would be my next project. Thank you._

 

I don't believe you responded to this.


----------



## BlindTiger

BUT, there's still pins inside the connector. This was what I saw in the post showing the JAE connector. The opposite of the Apple connecter which is covered in wax or some other substance.
 I didn't read anyone knocking Turbo's product, quite the opposite.


----------



## bigshot

Anyone who has ever wired up a connector knows what the problem is with that explanation. The firewire and the line out don't connect with each other any more in the dock than they do in the iPod itself. The pins in the connector are isolated from each other. Inside the iPod, the leads run together in a ribbon cable to the back side of the connector port. the quarter inch of wire in the dock isn't going to change that.

 You've stated it very well when you said either he doesn't want to say anything or he is a snake oil salesman. I'm willing to leave it at that.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## digihead

I can't believe this thread is actually 8 pages long. Got a Turbo Dock II and I love it. Sounds amazing. I prefer its sound over the pocketdock, SikDin, and Apple cradle. 

 There are several manufacturers that don't advertise here at all and don't take this kind of heat. Anyone ever ordered a Grover cable? No MallFi ad, no website, nothing. Just a killer product at a great price. Certainly doesn't seem like Grover has taken this same kind of heat.


----------



## RnB180

Regarding Grover, he speaks very little of his cables. Almost nothing, everything mentioned about Grovers are from listeners 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He's kind of a back stage kind of guy. He also doesnt outwardly challenge other vendors to make more sales 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Grover keeps to himself and rarely posts anything at all. He lets his product speak for itself.


----------

