# ß22 + σ22 design complete ••• Opinions welcome



## IPodPJ

After a long day of drawing this out in Adobe Illustrator, I finally have my design ready. The volume knobs and the power button will have the same color and machining but I haven't decided if I'm going to go with a brushed aluminum look or black anodized aluminum. The dark red circle in the center is the IR receiver for the motorized attenuator drive. CRM stands for Current Mode input. All the writing will be laser etched out of the black anodized layer on the chassis, so there won't be any debossing in the metal itself. I will do the back panels next week.

 I'm including two versions of the picture because it seems that on certain monitors the detail in the original wasn't showing up.












 It is based on the CODA CS amplifier chassis below. You can see the polished stainless steel endcaps:







*Amplifier Chassis:*

 - 4 Beta22 boards (including Vishay/Dale resistors), no LEDs on them
 - DACT CT2-4 50kOhm balanced attenuator
 - Bent Audio remote control motorized volume drive
 - Custom machined knobs, volume knob with LED inside
 - multiple LEDs inside the chassis to form a lengthy light space for power indication
 - custom PCB for all mounted jacks
 - Neutrik XLR and SE jacks, recessed into front panel and mounted from behind
 - Double Helix Cables Nucleotide wire

*Power Supply Chassis:*

 - 2 Sigma22 Boards (including Vishay/Dale resistors), no LEDs on them
 - Twisted Pear Audio low noise power supply for the LEDs and motorized drive
 - 3 custom-made 50VA transformers from Plitron, electrostatically shielded and potted in steel cans (one for each Sigma 22, one for the other power supplies)
 - custom machined power button
 - 5 individually isolated umbilicals for L+, L-, R+, R-, and for motor drive and LED power supplies.
 - power wire undecided at this point

*FINAL REVISED DESIGN (updated mid-December):*

 [size=small]*



*[/size]


----------



## KT88

Sweet!

 Can't wait to see pictures of the actual thing.


----------



## qwertgfdsa

Cool! build me one


----------



## krmathis

Sure looks nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Really like the combination of brushed and black anodize chassis', and the knobs and jacks layout.


----------



## IPodPJ

Thanks guys. You know what? When I was at my office I was able to see the detail on all the jacks. Now that I'm home on my PC I can't see all of it.

 I've updated the first post to include two versions.


----------



## GreenLeo

Nice! How long will it take to built one?


----------



## MoxMonkey

kinda looks the same as emotiva stuff


----------



## John E Woven

quick suggestion





 psd available if you really, really gotta have it.

 other suggestions: 
 -blue is overdone.
 -spiked feet
 -consider using only 4 pin and t-r-s connectors and skipping the 2x3 altogether


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreenLeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice! How long will it take to built one?_

 

Build time wouldn't be too long if I had the funds for it all, because my builder Steve ("Koyaan I. Sqatsi") is very fast. He's not doing the chassis work personally though. I'm hoping to have it done by Xmas. Money is the issue right now. The boards are basically completed. The chassis work will cost as much as all the parts. I'll probably have to sell the Phoenix to fund it.

 Here's a rundown of what will be inside:

*Amplifier Chassis:*

 - 4 Beta22 boards (including Vishay/Dale resistors), no LEDs on them
 - DACT CT2-4 50kOhm balanced attenuator
 - Bent Audio remote control motorized volume drive
 - Custom machined knobs, volume knob with LED inside
 - multiple LEDs inside the chassis to form a lengthy light space for power indication
 - custom PCB for all mounted jacks
 - Neutrik XLR and SE jacks, recessed into front panel and mounted from behind
 - Double Helix Cables Nucleotide wire

*Power Supply Chassis:*

 - 2 Sigma22 Boards (including Vishay/Dale resistors), no LEDs on them
 - Twisted Pear Audio low noise power supply for the LEDs and motorized drive
 - 3 custom-made 50VA transformers from Plitron, electrostatically shielded and potted in steel cans (one for each Sigma 22, one for the other power supplies)
 - custom machined power button
 - 5 individually isolated umbilicals for L+, L-, R+, R-, and for motor drive and LED power supplies.
 - power wire undecided at this point


----------



## amb

Low noise PS for LEDs and pot motor?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *amb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Low noise PS for LEDs and pot motor? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yep! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I want to keep the whole chain as quiet as possible. Whether or not that will translate into any real world difference, I have no idea.


----------



## ting.mike

dude... let's make a group buy for this case!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ting.mike* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_dude... let's make a group buy for this case!_

 

That was a thought and I'm open to that as long as you guys go with the design that I've set-up. (Responses here and in e-mail have been extremely positive.) If we can get about 10 or 20 people to do that, we could save money on setup and machining. Let me find out first if it's even possible and if Coda is willing to do that. I can't see why they wouldn't.

 Everyone would have to commit and I'd have to collect the money by November 15. I will find out what the cost on them will be in those quantities. But to give you an idea, right now it will cost me somewhere between $1000 - $1,200 for the chassis and the knobs. The set-up is expensive and each chassis without any machining is about $200. I'm not sure how many people would be willing to spend that, even if we were able to cut the price down to 2/3 or 1/2 of that. It is not a cheap build, but the end result will be "store-bought" quality.

 You will have to do your own building though or find a builder to do it for you.


----------



## nattonrice

Just fyi, in a 2 box solution you don't need the toroids to be potted; that's the primary reason for 2 enclosures.
 A silicon core band will be enough.


----------



## TzeYang

wow this is so awesome it's wrong.


----------



## johnwmclean

Nice one IPodPJ, that’s some chassis.


----------



## n_maher

Nice job on the design PJ.


----------



## mattcalf

Second John E Woven's suggestion, maybe consider the Bulgin switch (w/ ε24 power switch driver circuit and σ24 transformer board from AMB) on the Sigma chassis.

 Other than that it looks amazing and I look forward to seeing this build evolving.


----------



## jantze

I would use Neutrik Combo Series chassis connectors for left/right XLR + TRS so that you could use two unbalanced headphones. Otherwise a great looking amp!







 I'm using the same ones in my build:


----------



## IPodPJ

Thanks guys.

 About the Neutrik connectors I'm using, they are from the A series and can be mounted from the rear. No screws will be visible from the front. They will also have no ugly buttons on them. Those are great for studio situations on a rack mount, but annoying for home use. No one is going to trip and yank on your cord, and if they did I'd rather the cable come loose from the spring latch then take the amp with it. The front panel is 5/8" thick so the plugs will be recessed quite a bit anyway, but maybe not that far.

 Combo series isn't built as well as the A series if I understand correctly. Plus, I didn't have a need for two unbalanced phones or I could have put two TRS plugs on there. It's just there in case I wind up needing it for something.

 Bulgin was my first choice of switches but then I wanted something more classy and custom which is why I decided on custom machining.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nattonrice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just fyi, in a 2 box solution you don't need the toroids to be potted; that's the primary reason for 2 enclosures.
 A silicon core band will be enough._

 

But they look much better potted. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se


----------



## apatN

Wow! Can't wait to see it finished!

 Suggestion though is that you skip the 2x 3p. One 4p is enough imo.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was a thought and I'm open to that as long as you guys go with the design that I've set-up. (Responses here and in e-mail have been extremely positive.) If we can get about 10 or 20 people to do that, we could save money on setup and machining. Let me find out first if it's even possible and if Coda is willing to do that. I can't see why they wouldn't.

 Everyone would have to commit and I'd have to collect the money by November 15. I will find out what the cost on them will be in those quantities. But to give you an idea, right now it will cost me somewhere between $1000 - $1,200 for the chassis and the knobs. The set-up is expensive and each chassis without any machining is about $200. I'm not sure how many people would be willing to spend that, even if we were able to cut the price down to 2/3 or 1/2 of that. It is not a cheap build, but the end result will be "store-bought" quality._

 

A substantial amount could be saved on the chassis by using your front panel design, and hitching it to a more conventional sheet metal chassis. 

 The faceplate is 17" wide by 5.5" tall. This would mate well with the Par Metal 20-16125x chassis which is 16" x 5". 

 In case it wasn't made clear, PJ's building his B22 into a pair of 300 watt power amp chassis, complete with heatsinks and machined top covers, which accounts for much of the chassis cost.






 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *apatN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Suggestion though is that you skip the 2x 3p. One 4p is enough imo._

 

I agree. But will he listen to me? NooooOOOOOOOOOOOoooo! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree. But will he listen to me? NooooOOOOOOOOOOOoooo! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se




_

 

I think you will have a much cleaner looking front plate if you drop those 2x3pin XLR. Also if you are so concerned with noise that you have a PS just for the LEDs then I would think that extra antenna created from the unconnected terminals would down right scare the crap out of you


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you will have a much cleaner looking front plate if you drop those 2x3pin XLR. Also if you are so concerned with noise that you have a PS just for the LEDs then I would think that extra antenna created from the unconnected terminals would down right scare the crap out of you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My aftermarket cable is a dual 3-pin. I want to have all my options covered.


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My aftermarket cable is a dual 3-pin. I want to have all my options covered._

 

Just re-terminate the cable. That actually would be cheaper than the connectors you want to install.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Perhaps some simple mathematics will help. 











 se


----------



## nikongod

Keep the 2X3pinXLR, keep reading -

 When you go to sell your gear you will thank yourself for spending an extra $20 to appease someone who uses 2 connectors clinking like metal testicles on the end of their headphones rather than 1*4pin. Its dumb, I agree but its one less thing to worry about when the time comes, sad but a reality of design. Its also nice when you bring the amp to meets for people to just plug in. 

 On that note, sell your cable and buy/build one with 1*4pin.

 IMO the combo jacks are a much better idea than the 2X3 + separate TRS: you get more options for the same (less!) panel space and get better symmetry which is always nice. Wire 1 TRS up direct, wire 1 TRS with an IEC output resistance (120ish ohms). other people have wired the 2 TRS jacks in and out of phase, all sorts of options.





 the silver ghost before I started drilling and soldering. The rear-mounted 4-pin without the dumb locking tab is 10 times nicer than the standard one I used.

 Admire my front panel with only 3 screws, thats how I roll. The 3-pins are also not screwed in... it was very early in the build.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The faceplate is 17" wide by 5.5" tall. This would mate well with the Par Metal 20-16125x chassis which is 16" x 5"._

 

Quite a few people have built supersexxy B22's in parmetals cases with custom pannels. Nice, easy casework, and reasonably affordable.
  Quote:


 In case it wasn't made clear, PJ's building his B22 into a pair of 300 watt power amp chassis, complete with heatsinks and machined top covers, which accounts for much of the chassis cost. 
 

eeeeeh, I missed this bit.

 I would steer clear! I am assuming that the output devices will be mounted off of the boards, onto the side heatsinks of that case. If this is the case, I would be EXTREMELY afraid of creating some funky instability because of the extra wiring parasitic capacitances and whatnot. The b22 is not exactly known for being tooooo friendly to builders who deviate too far from the defined paths... maybe it will work, but you are traveling off the map.


----------



## apatN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps some simple mathematics will help. 




_

 

Haha, had to quote this picture.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nikongod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Keep the 2X3pinXLR, keep reading -

 When you go to sell your gear you will thank yourself for spending an extra $20 to appease someone who uses 2 connectors clinking like metal testicles on the end of their headphones rather than 1*4pin. Its dumb, I agree but its one less thing to worry about when the time comes, sad but a reality of design. Its also nice when you bring the amp to meets for people to just plug in._

 

But all that does is continue to perpetuate an completely dumb "standard." I can't say I know anyone who actually _prefers_ dual three pin over single four pin. They only use it because that's what's been foisted on them. And it will continue to prevail if no one ever takes a stand against it.

  Quote:


 I would steer clear! I am assuming that the output devices will be mounted off of the boards, onto the side heatsinks of that case. If this is the case... 
 

It isn't the case.

 The output devices will be mounted on the boards using the intended board mounted heatsinks.

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *apatN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haha, had to quote this picture. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 






 Glad you enjoyed it.

 se


----------



## dbfreak

Gorgeous design!


----------



## atothex

How much are those cases, btw?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much are those cases, btw?_

 

Don't know yet. Gonna have to get the machining and finishing quotes first.

 Or were you talking about the Par Metal chassis?

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

By the way, in spite of my feelings about dual three pin XLRs, I do think that visually, the three XLRs and one TRS look quite nice on PJ's front panel. Often times an asymmetrical element in an otherwise symmetrical design can keep it from being _too_ symmetrical and consequently more bland.

 se


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the way, in spite of my feelings about dual three pin XLRs, I do think that visually, the three XLRs and one TRS look quite nice on PJ's front panel. Often times an asymmetrical element in an otherwise symmetrical design can keep it from being too symmetrical and consequently more bland.

 se




_

 

I think a single 4pin XLR and single TRS would have the same balance with less clutter


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think a single 4pin XLR and single TRS would have the same balance with less clutter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sure. But I don't think there's going to be any talking PJ out of dual three pin XLRs so I'm not even gonna try. He already knows very well what my feelings are on that matter. Dontcha, PJ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure. But I don't think there's going to be any talking PJ out of dual three pin XLRs so I'm not even gonna try. He already knows very well what my feelings are on that matter. Dontcha, PJ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se




_

 

There won't be, and I do, and likewise I've tried my hardest to talk him out of this refusal to conform with the rest of the headphone world, but he's as stubborn as they come.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There won't be, and I do, and likewise I've tried my hardest to talk him out of this refusal to conform with the rest of the headphone world, but he's as stubborn as they come. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Of course. Because I'm not a conformist. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for "the rest of the headphone world," it uses 1/4" and 1/8" TRS plugs and jacks. It's only a microscopically small corner of that world that doesn't. And while I have an admiration for their daring to break from the TRS standard, they ****ed up the end game and chose to go with something that never should have gone past the proof of concept stage.

 And I'll never produce, or allow my name to be put on anything that uses dual three pin XLRs. While that may result in my own demise in the marketplace, at least I'll have gone down fighting instead of rolling over and taking a dual three pin XLR teabagging just to make a buck.

 se


----------



## Ynis Avalach

Sorry to interrupt, just wanted to throw in my 2cents. For me, I prefer dual 3 pins. Don't know why, but I prefer them.
 Nobody will ever get me to only put a 4pin on my front.
 And as long as I heart Tyll only decided to begin using dual 3pins because there already was one neat little connector which provided an additional TRS, just in the middle of the 3 pins.
 Greetz (and peace^^) Ava


----------



## Currawong

This makes me want to build a Beta 22 myself now.

 If people care enough about the 4-pin XLR issue, then we need to petition HeadRoom to add a 4-pin XLR on their balanced amps.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ynis Avalach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry to interrupt, just wanted to throw in my 2cents. For me, I prefer dual 3 pins. Don't know why, but I prefer them._

 

Ok, that's one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 And as long as I heart Tyll only decided to begin using dual 3pins because there already was one neat little connector which provided an additional TRS, just in the middle of the 3 pins. 
 

What I was told is that it came about because the first "balanced" amp was made up using two separate stereo amps with their channels bridged, thus necessitating the need for two separate connectors (i.e. one on each amp).

 Anyway, it doesn't make having to put two big-ass XLRs on your headphones any less dumb.

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If people care enough about the 4-pin XLR issue, then we need to petition HeadRoom to add a 4-pin XLR on their balanced amps._

 

Why HeadRoom? They're not the only ones making "balanced" amps. And I'd hazard that there are perhaps more "balanced" amps being sold in total by manufacturers other than HeadRoom. 

 Why not grassroots it and approach it from the bottom up?

 I've been toying the the idea of trying to start a "headphone guild." It would be an ad hoc group of manufacturers who cater to the specialty headphone market for the purpose of trying to resolve issues such as this as well as to help assure that these sorts of things are avoided in the first place.

 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Can we not use this thread for the discussion of 3-pin vs. 4-pin please? Thanks.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Sorry.

 se


----------



## DoYouRight

very nice design ipod. insane chassis, is CODA making it for you? If so thats a pretty big deal to make a custom case for a customer not willing to buy their amp.


----------



## IPodPJ

Thanks. I'm not sure if Coda is doing the machining but I'm sure Steve can answer that for you. As far as not willing, Steve used to work for Coda.

 I'm going to see if we can use a dark grey plastic for the IR cover instead of the red, as I feel that would keep the look cleaner.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Coda doesn't have any direct involvement with this. The owner's a longtime friend of mine and I do contract work for him and he was kind enough to let me buy some chassis parts for PJ's amp, which will primarily consist of the heatsinks, top and bottom panels. Front and rear panels will have to be done custom which I'll handle through the same machinists and finishers that Coda uses.

 So please don't call Coda and start asking about buying chassis parts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 se


----------



## nattonrice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But they look much better potted. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hehe I'll pay that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 They do look sexy.


----------



## h.rav

Nice work PJ.


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can we not use this thread for the discussion of 3-pin vs. 4-pin please? Thanks._

 

any updates on the T-shirt mods for the HD800?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_any updates on the T-shirt mods for the HD800?_

 

That isn't relevant to this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But no, it's still in the phones just the way I've had it.


----------



## scootermafia

x2 lol


----------



## n3rdling

Really nice looking case. The only thing I'd change is having the knob faces match. The source knob uses a line as a marker and the volume knob uses a dot; why not make them both use one or the other?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n3rdling* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really nice looking case. The only thing I'd change is having the knob faces match. The source knob uses a line as a marker and the volume knob uses a dot; why not make them both use one or the other?_

 

Not a bad idea.

 The reason for why the volume knob has an LED is so I can see it from across the room. The same with the input but since the LEDs for the selection will be lit up next to the writing for the input I'll be able to know which one.


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm going to present a few other options in the next few posts. This next one is the same as the original with a script font, thinner LED strip, dark grey IR cover, and stainless steel feet.


----------



## Mr.Mantas

This one looks more elegant!
 Ipodpj you are the master of desing audio gear! I remember your input on compass design, but this one is gorgeous!


----------



## IPodPJ

Thank you, but I had nothing to do with the Compass. I haven't designed any other audio components.

 I have some pretty crazy ideas for custom chassis but they would cost a small fortune to manufacture. One of these days I'll draw them out.


----------



## vcoheda

looks great. can't wait to see the finished product.


----------



## FrozenGecko

Perhaps, I missed this, but is the black part of the chassis going to be a brushed black or a polished black? Just curious....

 Looks fantastic!! can't wait to see the final product.


----------



## Steve Eddy

It'll be grained (brushed) and black anodized.

 se


----------



## pila405

Here something in Marantz's Reference series style [with IPodPJ's volume knob]:


----------



## IPodPJ

[size=small]*



*[/size]


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Mouth-watering.


----------



## guitarplayer

Internal fuses? Or is that the fused Furutech IEC inlet?

 Neutrik Powercons are just lovely connectors.

 Steve must be having a conniption over the two three pin XLR's, ha!

 Really nice work, Phil and Steve.

 Lee


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guitarplayer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Internal fuses? Or is that the fused Furutech IEC inlet?_

 

Not sure yet. Phil's been vacillating. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Steve must be having a conniption over the two three pin XLR's, ha! 
 

That was the deal. I agreed to build it with dual three pin XLRs, and in exchange, he agreed to put up with my bitching about it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He's a bit bummed that I refused to allow my name to be put on the amp because of that, but I'm sure he'll get over it.

  Quote:


 Really nice work, Phil and Steve. 
 

Thanks, though it's a bit early to be giving me any compliments. All I've done so far is stuff and solder the boards. This is all Phil's work. Wait'll I actually get this thing built, then you can heap all the compliments or criticisms on it you want. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se

 Edit: Oops. Almost forgot.


----------



## IPodPJ

Thanks Lee.
 The IEC is the newer FI-03 with the fuse holder and solder points. The FI-09 would be great if we were using 12 gauge cable but it isn't necessary for this, and has no fuse holder. It was a bitch drawing the IEC since I had no head-on photos to work from. It isn't exact like all the other connectors and jacks are, but is pretty darn close. It seems I forgot to put screws on it. I didn't leave my office until 3:30 this morning. I think I have somewhere around 25 - 30 hours into those drawings, partly because I was trying so many different layouts.

 Steve has his work cut out for him. I've proposed quite a few challenges like a custom relay for the input selection LEDs, LED in the volume knob, passive I/V stage for the current input -- all of which may be easy for him but still require the logistics of doing it cleanly -- while keeping the wires in a nice arrangement. What good would a project like this be if only the outside looked good? (I know you and Josh share that belief.) Steve will do a dynamite job on the guts, that I have no doubt. He is also translating my Illustrator files to CAD drawings for the machining of the front and rear plates. The front panel is 5/8" thick.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 That was the deal. I agreed to build it with dual three pin XLRs, and in exchange, he agreed to put up with my bitching about it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He's a bit bummed that I refused to allow my name to be put on the amp because of that, but I'm sure he'll get over it.

 Edit: Oops. Almost forgot. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







_

 







 I figured as much. You are going to steal my "audio curmudgeon" title from me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Lee.
 The IEC is the newer FI-03 with the fuse holder and solder points. ._

 

Good inlet, easy to use and one less hole for the fuse holder for the CNC to drill.

 Lee


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guitarplayer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good inlet, easy to use and one less hole for the fuse holder for the CNC to drill.

 Lee_

 

When you get a chance, send a rhodium plated cryo'd FI-03 over to Steve. I'll send you his address.

 Thanks!


----------



## Mr.Mantas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pila405* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here something in Marantz's Reference series style [with IPodPJ's volume knob]: 




_

 

Looks sexy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 im not a fan of black color,
 what about white edition Ipodpj?


----------



## IPodPJ

Nah, no white or champagne for me.


----------



## qusp

very nice work guys!! well at least so far 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 case design is not to be underestimated. re the inlets. I have been umming and ahhing about my buffalo32 inlet. I have both the FI-03 (rhodium) and FI-09 (also rhodium) here as well as hifituning fuses and a cryo silver fuse holder (an experiment), I decided in the end to hardwire the fuse to the AC line, power is pretty decent here and I have a conditioner anyway and noi aversion to soldering in a new one if I must. I am using 12AWG neotech copper for AC, so I really had no choice is I wanted to keep that option.

 whats the model number on those DC jacks?? i'm very interested to see the current mode implementation. such a pity there arent more choices for 4 pin XLR, I have it as an option, but cant leave off 2 x 3 pin unless I really want to limit the cables and headphones that can use the dac/amp without an adapter. I can only immagine the hard time you got


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_very nice work guys!! well at least so far 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 case design is not to be underestimated. re the inlets. I have been umming and ahhing about my buffalo32 inlet. I have both the FI-03 (rhodium) and FI-09 (also rhodium) here as well as hifituning fuses and a cryo silver fuse holder (an experiment), I decided in the end to hardwire the fuse to the AC line, power is pretty decent here and I have a conditioner anyway and noi aversion to soldering in a new one if I must. I am using 12AWG neotech copper for AC, so I really had no choice is I wanted to keep that option.

 whats the model number on those DC jacks?? i'm very interested to see the current mode implementation. such a pity there arent more choices for 4 pin XLR, I have it as an option, but cant leave off 2 x 3 pin unless I really want to limit the cables and headphones that can use the dac/amp without an adapter. I can only immagine the hard time you got 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks!

 Which do you prefer, the FI-03 or the FI-09? I'm still undecided and would like to use the best one. Power cords are very important to me as I feel they have a substantial impact on the sound. Not to mention, I have big cords that weigh around 7 lbs (3.18 kilograms).

 The DC plugs I am using are the Neutrik PowerCon 20 amp. The current plugs are some cheapos from China that Audio-gd uses on all their gear. Since I am using an Audio-gd Reference One DAC, I may include a passive I/V network inside the Beta22. If I decide not to after trial with a custom current-to-voltage cable, I will make an active I/V stage in a separate chassis.


----------



## DoYouRight

if we would pressure them we could get a change people!


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if we would pressure them we could get a change people!_

 

That's the spirit!

 POWER TO THE PEOPLE! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if we would pressure them we could get a change people!_

 

Pressure them to do what exactly?

 If we're talking about 4-pin, I believe everyone should be entitled to their own choice. For example, most of the headphone cables out there would do fine with 4-pin. I'm using one right now that Peter of Double Helix Cables lent me and it's two completely separate cables. For this dual 3-pin is ideal. (I'll save my opinions of it for another thread at a later date, except to say it's excellent.)

 I don't think anyone needs to be pressured into choosing one way or the other. Some designers will feel 4-pin is a better way to go and that's perfectly fine. Others feel dual 3-pin is a better way to go and that's perfectly fine, too. But I'm glad people have an option to choose what they want. I would think it would be beneficial if their were more "boutique" 4-pin connectors for those out their that must have them, and would probably make the selling of 4-pin cables much easier.


----------



## qusp

if only WE were a significant number when it comes to getting a manufacturer to make a new model. Bocchino will make a 4 pin OEM I reckon, but we would still be stuck woith the neutrik XX female chassis mount, Nino doesnt make a 3 pin, let alone a 4 pin version, only does inline. also the BAXLR price isnt foir everyone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 re the inlets IpodPJ: the FI-09 is clearly superior, the solderless connection, fit, finish and ability to use larger guage wires with ease = win for me. the other is still a great inlet and the integrated fuse holder is really handy, so I will be using it in something for sure, but the 09 is in the buffalo32 to stay. I havent spent enough time with either inlet installed to give any meaningful review of audio qualities as yet, as i'm still working on casing it up properly. I really wanted to use the 12AWG neotech solidcore UPOCC for AC and especially the grounding bus, being the point for the star ground of course the ability to tie all my terminal blocks for the separate gronding points for digital, analogue and power currents to that without worrying about it being too much puts my mind at ease. whether trhat is rational given the comparitively low currents is another thing of course.

 and yeah i'm with you OP, 4 pin is convenient and all, but being that I am also a proponent of the anti-crosstalk brigade, 2 x 3 pin certainly does make that a lot easier.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think anyone needs to be pressured into choosing one way or the other. Some designers will feel 4-pin is a better way to go and that's perfectly fine. Others feel dual 3-pin is a better way to go and that's perfectly fine, too._

 

That just divides the market. I think it would be better to adopt a single standard that can be relied upon and that that standard shouldn't be something as dumb as dual three pin XLRs. If a designer wanted to include something in addition to the standard, that would be fine. 

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and yeah i'm with you OP, 4 pin is convenient and all, but being that I am also a proponent of the anti-crosstalk brigade, 2 x 3 pin certainly does make that a lot easier._

 

Being anti-crosstalk is one thing. Being neurotic is another. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If dual three pin XLRs are to serve in the battle against crosstalk, then it would be rather pointless to use them with anything other than physically separate left and right headphone cables and closed-back headphones.

 se


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Being anti-crosstalk is one thing. Being neurotic is another. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If dual three pin XLRs are to serve in the battle against crosstalk, then it would be rather pointless to use them with anything other than physically separate left and right headphone cables and closed-back headphones.

 se_

 

That's exactly my thought as well. That's why i used a Dual Star Quad snake cable for this one.

http://www.turbonet.biz/misc/225/AAA_1772.JPG


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's exactly my thought as well. That's why i used a Dual Star Quad snake cable for this one._

 

Those don't look like closed back headphones to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those don't look like closed back headphones to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se_

 

Didn't realize the Closed Back part was Germaine, and still don't understand what that has to do with Dual XLRs or ablation of crosstalk.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Didn't realize the Closed Back part was Germaine, and still don't understand what that has to do with Dual XLRs or ablation of crosstalk._

 

Because open back headphones will have more crosstalk than closed back headphones.

 se


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because open back headphones will have more crosstalk than closed back headphones.

 se_

 

You'll have to explain that one to me?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You'll have to explain that one to me?_

 

Because with open back headphones, not only does more sound get out through the backs, but more sound can come in through the backs. So if more sound is able to get out through the back of one channel, that means more sound coming in through the back of the other channel and vice versa. Hence, more crosstalk than with closed back headphones where much less sound is able to get out through the back.

 se


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because with open back headphones, not only does more sound get out through the backs, but more sound can come in through the backs. So if more sound is able to get out through the back of one channel, that means more sound coming in through the back of the other channel and vice versa. Hence, more crosstalk than with closed back headphones where much less sound is able to get out through the back.

 se_

 

I guess I don't see that as Crosstalk. I see Crosstalk as an electrical phenomena as opposed to an acoustical anomaly, or something someone might call crossfeed. I also don't see 3 PIN XLRs having anything to do with that. So, ahhh, whatever...


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess I don't see that as Crosstalk. I see Crosstalk as an electrical phenomena as opposed to an acoustical anomaly, or something someone might call crossfeed._

 

Crosstalk is one channel unintentionally getting into the other and vice versa. Period. Doesn't matter whether its source is electrical or acoustical, the result is the same. 

 Crossfeed's technically not "crosstalk" as crossfeed's intentional.

  Quote:


 I also don't see 3 PIN XLRs having anything to do with that. 
 

Because dual three pin XLRs have been presented as a means to reduce crosstalk. 

 But if that's the goal, then it wouldn't make any sense to use dual three pin XLRs unless you're using them with separate left and right cabling and closed back headphones. Otherwise the crosstalk due to open back headphones rather defeats the whole purpose.

 se


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Being anti-crosstalk is one thing. Being neurotic is another. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If dual three pin XLRs are to serve in the battle against crosstalk, then it would be rather pointless to use them with anything other than physically separate left and right headphone cables and closed-back headphones.

 se_

 

well yes, at a minimum I use very loosely bound dual twisted pairs, but in general I do indeed use 2 x twisted pair separately double shielded and only then covered in techflex. lol at crosstalk, but only one of my headphones is open. my denons and JH13 are closed, these get used the most. but of course crosstalk is a cumulative thing, there is already a certain amount of crosstalk present in anything but dual mono systems; any dac, opamp etc will already have a small amount, but I would prefer not to add to the problem, however small each part may be, it all adds up. 

 and hey, when did I ever pretend to not be neurotic, I think that is a trait that is fairly common here.

 also, i'm not saying I dont use 4 pin sometimes, i've already said I have both on the buffalo32, I use a modified 4 pin XX series on my JH13 cable so I can switch easily between portable and home use, but I also continue to use 2 x 3 pin for critical applications due to what I said above and the lack of a decent 4 pin alternative. having 1 choice doesnt really excite me.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but of course crosstalk is a cumulative thing, there is already a certain amount of crosstalk present in anything but dual mono systems; any dac, opamp etc will already have a small amount, but I would prefer not to add to the problem, however small each part may be, it all adds up._

 

Then obviously your headphone amp is a pair of monoblocks, yes? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


 and hey, when did I ever pretend to not be neurotic, I think that is a trait that is fairly common here. 
 

Ok. But let feeding the neurosis be the option, rather than the standard.

  Quote:


 also, i'm not saying I dont use 4 pin sometimes, i've already said I have both on the buffalo32, I use a modified 4 pin XX series on my JH13 cable so I can switch easily between portable and home use, but I also continue to use 2 x 3 pin for critical applications... 
 

What critical applications? All of the amps you have listed are portables with TRS jacks.

  Quote:


 ...due to what I said above and the lack of a decent 4 pin alternative. 
 

There's nothing lacking in the Neutrik four pins.

 se


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then obviously your headphone amp is a pair of monoblocks, yes? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Now that’s an idea? 3 pin XLR has got a place after all. LOL


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now that’s an idea? 3 pin XLR has got a place after all. LOL_

 

Yes, they should be standard on all monoblock headphone amps. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then obviously your headphone amp is a pair of monoblocks, yes? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Ok. But let feeding the neurosis be the option, rather than the standard._

 

who's neurosis am I feeding?? all i'm doing is stating the facts, which you have not refuted, but simply said its not enough of a problem to worry about; I beg to differ, but I am just saying what i'm doing. other peoples may do as they wish and should be free to choose without fear of the XLR inspector


  Quote:


 What critical applications? All of the amps you have listed are portables with TRS jacks. 
 

thats because my buffalo32 hasnt been cased up properly yet, so its not listed in my gear list proper. it is the dual mono version (though not strictly as the sabre is 8 dacs split into 4 each channel) and drives headphones directly. I dont list cardboard boxes in my gear list 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the same 3 pin XLRs on the DAC have a second set of lines attached with TX2575 load resistors inline for load setting; both are switched with the OTTO relay so I didnt have to instal another set of XLR for my active monitors



  Quote:


 There's nothing lacking in the Neutrik four pins. 
 

I disagree, the plating is crappy and thin, the silver corrodes down to the underneath on the silver versions sometimes before you even receive them (this happened to me recently in an order from HAVEinc and if i'm going to use high quality conductors through the rest of the cable, i'd rather not use nickel in the connector. for the money they are great; I just dont like them being the only option.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_who's neurosis am I feeding?? all i'm doing is stating the facts, which you have not refuted, but simply said its not enough of a problem to worry about; I beg to differ, but I am just saying what i'm doing. other peoples may do as they wish and should be free to choose without fear of the XLR inspector_

 

I wasn't referring to you personally. I've only been speaking in the context of commercial manufacturers. I don't care what DIYers do. 

 What I was saying is that I'd like to see the commercial side of the market establish single four pin as the standard.

  Quote:


 thats because my buffalo32 hasnt been cased up properly yet, so its not listed in my gear list proper. it is the dual mono version (though not strictly as the sabre is 8 dacs split into 4 each channel) and drives headphones directly. 
 

Ah, gotcha.

  Quote:


 I disagree, the plating is crappy and thin, the silver corrodes down to the underneath on the silver versions sometimes before you even receive them (this happened to me recently in an order from HAVEinc and if i'm going to use high quality conductors through the rest of the cable... 
 

Silver doesn't corrode. It will tarnish (turn black) due to sulfur compounds in the air, and is rather easily dealt with with a little Tarn-X. If you received tarnished jacks, it's probably because they'd been sitting around in a warehouse for quite a while.

  Quote:


 I just dont like them being the only option. 
 

They're not the only option. You can also get four pin XLRs from Switchcraft and Deltron to name just two.

 se


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wasn't referring to you personally. I've only been speaking in the context of commercial manufacturers. I don't care what DIYers do. 

 What I was saying is that I'd like to see the commercial side of the market establish single four pin as the standard._

 

yeah OK, well sure I wouldnt argue if there were better options, or even more options, but at the moment the neutrik is the best one IMO and its still not really up to snuff.



  Quote:


 Ah, gotcha. 
 

cool

  Quote:


 Silver doesn't corrode. It will tarnish (turn black) due to sulfur compounds in the air, and is rather easily dealt with with a little Tarn-X. If you received tarnished jacks, it's probably because they'd been sitting around in a warehouse for quite a while. 
 

I know this, and its quite conductive too, but the stuff on the neutriks wasnt just silver oxide, it was all mottled and rainbow coloured, so mustve eroded down to the subplate, meaning the plating on top is crap. yes they mustve been sitting around the warehouse for a while, but the XX series hasnt been around for ages, so if its got to that state without even being used, I dont hold great hope for how well it will do under use. like I said they are good for the money, but there simpy isnt a truly hi-end 4 pin as yet and I doubt anyone will make one so we can establish a standard for headphones. only hope is a small OEM design.



  Quote:


 They're not the only option. You can also get four pin XLRs from Switchcraft and Deltron to name just two. 
 

I didnt mean literally, but the neutrik is the only one I would consider using. the deltrons are no better and are also ugly as sin IMO. the switchcraft are OK, but only come in nickel plate I think; could be wrong there, but I couldnt even find a gold plate version, let alone silver. which is not something I or my customers would consider using. when manufacturers start putting 4 pin jacks on there amps more often, it will become more viable and maybe then the connector manufacturers will fall in line. but as it stands there are very few options for their use, bar DIY and a couple of other options, certainly not enough to even attempt to make a standard. maybe you should hold a consortium and invite all the headamp manufacturers along and state your case?? or perhaps strap a bomb to yourself to get the point across 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 maybe then they'll listen hehe

 se[/QUOTE]


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah OK, well sure I wouldnt argue if there were better options, or even more options, but at the moment the neutrik is the best one IMO and its still not really up to snuff._

 

I've never had any issues with Neutriks.

  Quote:


 I know this, and its quite conductive too, but the stuff on the neutriks wasnt just silver oxide, it was all mottled and rainbow coloured, so mustve eroded down to the subplate, meaning the plating on top is crap. 
 

Again, silver doesn't corrode or erode. At least not in air at normal temperatures. And the mottling was likely silver sulfide, not silver oxide. Again, it could have been easily taken care of with some Tarn-X.

  Quote:


 yes they mustve been sitting around the warehouse for a while, but the XX series hasnt been around for ages, so if its got to that state without even being used, I dont hold great hope for how well it will do under use. 
 

That's what happens with silver. And has more to do with what's in the air than the silver itself.

 It's also possible that what you were sold were some Chinese counterfeits. There's so much sulfur in the air over there from the burning of coal it wouldn't take long for anything silver to start turning ugly.

 And why limit yourself to the XX series?

 If you want a nice 4 pin male, check out the NC4MX-HD.






  Quote:


 like I said they are good for the money, but there simpy isnt a truly hi-end 4 pin as yet and I doubt anyone will make one so we can establish a standard for headphones. only hope is a small OEM design. 
 

As I said previously, I've found nothing lacking in them. 

  Quote:


 I didnt mean literally, but the neutrik is the only one I would consider using. the deltrons are no better and are also ugly as sin IMO. the switchcraft are OK, but only come in nickel plate I think; could be wrong there, but I couldnt even find a gold plate version, let alone silver. which is not something I or my customers would consider using. 
 

Switchcraft's regular A series XLRs have silver plated contacts. The A4M is what you'd want for a four pin headphone cable.

 And what's wrong with nickel? It doesn't tarnish and it's very hard so it wears well.

 se


----------



## nattonrice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_TX2575 load resistors_

 






 Very excellent.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've never had any issues with Neutriks._

 

well perhaps I got a bad batch, because 4 out of 10 males I got were dodgy, actually just looked at them again, its not silver sulphide, IU know what that looks like, anytime i've seen it, its been dark grey/black, this isnt


  Quote:


 Again, silver doesn't corrode or erode. At least not in air at normal temperatures. And the mottling was likely silver sulfide, not silver oxide. Again, it could have been easily taken care of with some Tarn-X. 
 

whatever you say, I repeat I have seen silver sulphide and this isnt it.


  Quote:


 That's what happens with silver. And has more to do with what's in the air than the silver itself. 
 

lol

  Quote:


 It's also possible that what you were sold were some Chinese counterfeits. There's so much sulfur in the air over there from the burning of coal it wouldn't take long for anything silver to start turning ugly.

 

perhaps, but I doubt it, they are an industry wholesaler

  Quote:


 And why limit yourself to the XX series?

 

well I suspect they use the same process for all of them, I cant see them developing an entirely different plating process for each range, i've never seen this before either, they are being good about replacing them, but if there are any problems with the replacements, I wont be using them again. regardless you or anyone are not going to convince me to replace BAXLR and its ilk with neutrik, sorry but regardless, even a fu;lly functional and perfect neutrik 4 pin (of any type) is not in the same league IMO

  Quote:


 If you want a nice 4 pin male, check out the NC4MX-HD. 
 

they look pretty sweet, perhaps i'll get them to replace with them instead. do they come in black??





  Quote:


 As I said previously, I've found nothing lacking in them. 
 

as I said, I have....

 now lets leave this subject alone shall we?? I dont think its fair to IPodPJ that this thread is taken off topic to the point where his and your build is forgotten. you certainly are obsessed; when someone releases one that can play in the same league as my current choices, i'll think about it.


  Quote:


 Switchcraft's regular A series XLRs have silver plated contacts. The A4M is what you'd want for a four pin headphone cable.

 

thanks for the tip, i'll look into them, I do generally find switchcraft to make better connectors than neutrik; but its still not the same
  Quote:


 And what's wrong with nickel? It doesn't tarnish and it's very hard so it wears well. 
 

well, its not copper, currently I can build a cable that is copper from head to toe, well except for a short length of rhodium (for HD6XX) or whatever the HD800 ODU connectors are based on. for a hardwired cable its possible to have copper from start to finish (other than the solder at the headphone driver, the BAXLR are solderless) with a thick silver plate and a solid teflon, peek, polyamide or delrin chassis

 now lets please leave it, you arent going to convince me its a good idea to replace bocchino with neutrik or switchcraft 4 pin wholesale, I will continue to use those on occasion when it suits, but not for mission critical work. and certainly not until there are myriad amps that I can plug into.

*now IPodPJ:* what trannies are you using?? and can I ask which fabrication house you are using for the panels?? did you do the layout in illustrator or CAD?? the reason I ask is because i'm thinking of switching from getting the wooden front panel of my buffalo32 100% laser-cut, to a mixture of laser and CNC milling to allow the use of a thicker wooden panel and still be able to mount the connectors properly. my build has all inputs and outputs except for the IEC and fuse holder on the front and there are quite a few


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well perhaps I got a bad batch, because 4 out of 10 males I got were dodgy, actually just looked at them again, its not silver sulphide, IU know what that looks like, anytime i've seen it, its been dark grey/black, this isnt_

 

I split this discussion into its own thread.

*now IPodPJ:*and can I ask which fabrication house you are using for the panels??[/quote]

 I'll be having that done here locally. 

  Quote:


 did you do the layout in illustrator or CAD?? 
 

PJ did the illustration in Illustrator, I'll be doing the dimensional mechanical drawings for the machining and finishing in AutoCAD.

  Quote:


 the reason I ask is because i'm thinking of switching from getting the wooden front panel of my buffalo32 100% laser-cut, to a mixture of laser and CNC milling to allow the use of a thicker wooden panel and still be able to mount the connectors properly. my build has all inputs and outputs except for the IEC and fuse holder on the front and there are quite a few 
 

Then you should probably go with 100% CNC milling, with the possible exception of lettering and other marking which can be done with laser if you want it to be subtle. 

 How were you planning to finish the wood once it's been machined?

 se


----------



## limpidglitch

I have a few comments on the design, You might want to ignore them, I won't be offended, both because you've stated it's finalized and because I can be a bit obsessive on these things.

 Main peeve: Why do you use three completely different fonts on on the front panel. Four even, as the greek letter and the 22 clearly doesn't match.

 Second peeve: Why so _much_ lettering on the front plate? You've repeatedly stated that you want a 'clean' look, all the un-necessary lettering is what really messes up the facade in my eyes. Since this isn't going to be a production unit you don't have to worry about wether your customers know where to plug the the different contacts and which knob to turn to change the volume. You know it is a fully balanced amplifier, fed by a a dual mono power-supply. The left 3pin jack for left 3pin plug, 4pin jack for 4pin plug, trs jack for trs plug, you know all this, so why all those letters? Vanity?

 Again, you're welcome to disregard my comments and consider my minimalism and 'away with anything un-necessary' philosophy as a tad extreme, I just had to get this out.

 Oh and


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *limpidglitch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a few comments on the design, You might want to ignore them, I won't be offended, both because you've stated it's finalized and because I can be a bit obsessive on these things.

 Main peeve: Why do you use three completely different fonts on on the front panel. Four even, as the greek letter and the 22 clearly doesn't match.

 Second peeve: Why so much lettering on the front plate? You've repeatedly stated that you want a 'clean' look, all the un-necessary lettering is what really messes up the facade in my eyes. Since this isn't going to be a production unit you don't have to worry about wether your customers know where to plug the the different contacts and which knob to turn to change the volume. You know it is a fully balanced amplifier, fed by a a dual mono power-supply. The left 3pin jack for left 3pin plug, 4pin jack for 4pin plug, trs jack for trs plug, you know all this, so why all those letters? Vanity?_

 

No, I welcome any and all comments. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It isn't a vanity thing, it's a "commercial look" thing. I like the fonts I have selected. The Beta and Sigma symbols are Arial I believe, with a skew I applied to them. The 22 is called Pi Gene if I remember correctly. The script font on the bottom is, hell, I forget. I'll have to look it up at the office. It might be Regency Script, not sure. And the font below the jacks and the inputs is Helvetica Neue Light.

 I feel that the front panel is very clean. I like the fonts in place because I feel they all go well together, and so have most. When you use fonts that don't blend well, that's when it looks like an amateur job. I want it to look like a commercially made piece. I want to show that DIY can look as good as a store-bought piece, and that the outside is as worthy as the gear inside. That is my goal.


----------



## IPodPJ

To Qusp,

 The 3 trafos are being custom made by Plitron. They make great stuff, but their customer service is absolutely horrible. They are all electrostatically shielded and potted. (I wish I would have asked them to make square cans for them. I feel they would look nice.) All 3 are 50VA. Two have 18V outputs, one has 15V.


----------



## limpidglitch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I welcome any and all comments. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It isn't a vanity thing, it's a "commercial look" thing. I like the fonts I have selected. The Beta and Sigma symbols are Arial I believe, with a skew I applied to them. The 22 is called Pi Gene if I remember correctly. The script font on the bottom is, hell, I forget. I'll have to look it up at the office. It might be Regency Script, not sure. And the font below the jacks and the inputs is Helvetica Neue Light.

 I feel that the front panel is very clean. I like the fonts in place because I feel they all go well together, and so have most. When you use fonts that don't blend well, that's when it looks like an amateur job. I want it to look like a commercially made piece. I want to show that DIY can look as good as a store-bought piece, and that the outside is as worthy as the gear inside. That is my goal._

 

I understand.

 It seems like we've got radically different views on aesthetics. I generally find a well thought through 'DIY look' more appealing than a 'commercial look'. I think there's something in the simplicity that follows from a tight budget.

 But the font thing still stands. I still don't see the point in using four different types. One all twirly wirly classical looking, one futuristic, and one ultra conservative simple, plus the greek letters.


----------



## johnwmclean

No it's not Arial. Typographically there is a clash with the script font and headline font, the script looks of a 1915 era whilst the Beta22 and Sigma22 logos look 1980's.

 Alas typography is a lost art form, as is careful kerning/leading etc.


----------



## nattonrice

@ipodpj: You should go with Richard Sumner, his CS is brilliant and the product is top quality.

 LOL @ John, you word nerd


----------



## fault151

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_








_

 

Hey, i just noticed this post. I too recently went through about a million variations of my b22 design. I really like the design you have created. My only comment is about the b22 and s22 logos. I feel they don't look as nice as the rest of the amp does. Thats only my opinoin. Can't wait to see this thing built!


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nattonrice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL @ John, you word nerd 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

See right there, now that’s a bad attitude - I’ve been doing typographic since you were in nappies - Sonny Jim! Anyone can slap out type on computer nowadays, back in my day it was all hand done by skilled technicians and artists. This art form has been lost, lost I tell you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Crickey I sound old


----------



## nattonrice

Hehe =D
 As you know too well my slapped out type was pretty poor~


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All 3 are 50VA. Two have 18V outputs, one has 15V._

 

Why so low? The standard B22 runs at ±24 to 30V, but with 2x18VAC the best you'll manage is ±18V.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why so low? The standard B22 runs at ±24 to 30V, but with 2x18VAC the best you'll manage is ±18V._

 

The B22 doesn't run on AC voltage. It runs on DC voltage.

 18 x 1.414 = 25.452.

 se


----------



## luvdunhill

Here's what the designer recommends:

 For other output voltages, a rule of thumb for this PSU is that approximately 9V-10V drop should be maintained across the pass MOSFETs under load. This allows for the 4V Vgs of the MOSFETs plus about 5V of headroom to allow for line voltage fluctuations. Using the ±15V output as an example, the pre-regulator voltage should be 24V. Accounting for a couple of volts drop across the rectifier diodes, that figure goes up to 26V. The transformer voltage should be 0.707 times that of the rectified DC voltage, so 26V * 0.707 ~= 18V. Thus, a dual 18V or a 36VCT transformer should work well.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's what the designer recommends:

 For other output voltages, a rule of thumb for this PSU is that approximately 9V-10V drop should be maintained across the pass MOSFETs under load. This allows for the 4V Vgs of the MOSFETs plus about 5V of headroom to allow for line voltage fluctuations. Using the ±15V output as an example, the pre-regulator voltage should be 24V. Accounting for a couple of volts drop across the rectifier diodes, that figure goes up to 26V. The transformer voltage should be 0.707 times that of the rectified DC voltage, so 26V * 0.707 ~= 18V. Thus, a dual 18V or a 36VCT transformer should work well._

 

luvdunhill, these are specs for σ22 output voltages - What do they have to so with powering a β22 board?


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_luvdunhill, these are specs for σ22 output voltages - What do they have to so with powering a β22 board?_

 

er, I'm assuming the 18 VAC outputs from this aforementioned toroid will go to a sigma22, then to the beta22. Is that not the case?


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_er, I'm assuming the 18 VAC outputs from this aforementioned toroid will go to a sigma22, then to the beta22. Is that not the case?_

 

mmm... I think it’s just an ±15V output example for the σ22 psu, that’s the way I read it.


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mmm... I think it’s just an ±15V output example for the σ22 psu, that’s the way I read it._

 

point being, that Steve might need a bit more voltage, in regard to Beefy's comment


----------



## johnwmclean

The recommended rail voltages are ±24V to ±30V DC for a β22 board so 25.452V is well within spec, it may run a little cooler too.


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The recommended rail voltages are ±24V to ±30V DC for a β22 board so 25.452V is well within spec, it may run a little cooler too._

 

uh, anyways... I don't think you understand the crux of the issue here. Try and read the excerpt from amb's website again.


----------



## fishski13

The &sigma;22 Regulated Power Supply

 need minimum dual 25V TX for +/- 24VDC.


----------



## IPodPJ

The dual 18V trafos are for the dual sigma22 boards. The 15V trafo is to power the LEDs, attenuator remote control motor drive, and the custom relays for the input switching.


----------



## IPodPJ

*According to AMB's website:
*
http://www.amb.org/audio/sigma22/

 Look under the Power transformer section.
 It appears we have everything correct.

 Steve, care to chime in here? (since he told me what we needed)

 What is being made is:
(2) 50VA, dual 120/240 primaries, dual 18V secondaries, electrostatic shielding and potted in a steel can
 (1) 50VA, dual 120/240 primaries, dual 15V secondaries, electrostatic shielding and potted in a steel can


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_uh, anyways... I don't think you understand the crux of the issue here. Try and read the excerpt from amb's website again._

 

Oh dear, yes indeed I do see the point you are making now, sorry.

 We'll just have to wait till Steve chimes for the answers as to why...


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishski13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The &sigma;22 Regulated Power Supply

 need minimum dual 25V TX for +/- 24VDC._

 

True enough. And 15V will be fine for bridged use since each channel only swings half what it would otherwise.

 se


----------



## johnwmclean

I didn't know you could do that. How does that work for your gain setting?


----------



## IPodPJ

The gain setting is 5 per channel (10 total).


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The B22 doesn't run on AC voltage. It runs on DC voltage.

 18 x 1.414 = 25.452.

 se_

 

Really! As already pointed out by everybody else, AMB clearly states that you lose 2V to the rectifiers, and you should allow an additional 9-10V for the 4V Vgs of the MOSFETs and 5V to burn off for the actual regulation. So to stay within those design limits, the S22 should really be set for only _15V_; perhaps 18V, assuming your loaded voltage is still a bit higher than the fully loaded rating.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_True enough. And 15V will be fine for bridged use since each channel only swings half what it would otherwise.

 se_

 

So this massive 4 channel build you are putting together, with ±15-18V power rails, will only swing as much voltage as a 2-channel build running ±30V rails? That seems really dumb to me.

 Why bother going bridged at all? Why not bump the transformer to allow for the recommended rail voltages to bring this amp in line with other 4-channel builds? Because at the moment, its going to be a lame duck inside an overly expensive case.


----------



## IPodPJ

Ti just confirmed it is incorrect. I pray Plitron will let me correct it.

 "β22 is designed to run on ±24V to ±30V DC "rails (see the "Power supply" section of the β22 website). Most people use ±30V for maximum output swing, but the amp will run cooler with ±24V rails. The amp shouldn't run with lower than ±24V. To achieve ±24V output with the σ22 PSU, you need a transformer with dual 25V secondaries. To get ±30V, you need dual 30V secondaries (see the "Parts list" section of the σ22 website which contains a list of recommended transformer secondaries voltages with respect to desired output voltage). Obviously, your transformer with dual 18V secondaries is not enough voltage.

 -Ti"

 He says on Krmathis build he used two 80VA 30V+30V trafos, and even that's a bare minimum for using it with speakers which I won't be doing. I could get away with 50VA 30V+30V but he recommends 80VA. If Plitron doesn't switch this order I'm out $250 since that's their minimum for a custom order.


----------



## Beefy

If you try to switch the order, you should also make sure you specify _electromagnetic_ shielding, rather than electrostatic. You'll probably end up with the same thing, but it pays to use the correct terminology.

 And for future custom orders, consider Richard Sumner (SumR). He is extremely flexible and reasonably priced for custom orders.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm out $250 since that's their minimum for a custom order._

 

Sorry to hear this IPodPJ, but why is this your fault, since the builder (Steve) chose the wrong part


----------



## nattonrice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_used two 80VA 30V+30V trafos, and even that's a bare minimum for using it with speakers which I won't be doing. I could get away with 50VA 30V+30V but he recommends 80VA._

 

ffiw I used two 80VA's from R Sumner.
 It gives some headroom in case you ever decide to do anything more "interesting" with the b22 than a can amp.


----------



## luvdunhill

Perhaps Steve has a solution in mind, like assuming some sort of line conditioner, using Schottky diodes as rectifiers, and removing the MOSFET cascode in the PSU?


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps Steve has a solution in mind, like assuming some sort of line conditioner, using Schottky diodes as rectifiers, and removing the MOSFET cascode in the PSU?_

 

PJ would need to change the label on the power supply case since it would no longer be a sigma22 power supply.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps Steve has a solution in mind, like assuming some sort of line conditioner, using Schottky diodes as rectifiers, and removing the MOSFET cascode in the PSU?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ would need to change the label on the power supply case since it would no longer be a sigma22 power supply. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Oh, SNAP!


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PJ would need to change the label on the power supply case since it would no longer be a sigma22 power supply. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

well, it does say dual mono on it. 

 I suppose he could order a second transformer and put the windings in series.


----------



## Beefy

It just occurred to me that this would have been a crapload funnier if I had waited until after IPodPJ received his transformers to say something


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It just occurred to me that this would have been a crapload funnier if I had waited until after IPodPJ received his transformers to say something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I'm sure he'll be able to cover the $250 from the freebie's he will be able to negotiate after showing off his design skills in this thread


----------



## IPodPJ

Beefy, since you never have anything nice to say, why do you even bother posting? Get over yourself. Many of us are sick of it.

 And FYI, I spoke to Ti before you posted.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Beefy, since you never have anything nice to say, why do you even bother posting? Get over yourself. Many of us are sick of it._

 

It amuses me, plain and simple.

  Quote:


 And FYI, I spoke to Ti before you posted. 
 

Hmmmm, seems to me you don't trust your builder very much.


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Beefy, since you never have anything nice to say, why do you even bother posting? Get over yourself. Many of us are sick of it.

 And FYI, I spoke to Ti before you posted._

 

Wow expect for maybe his last statement that was probably said in jest he has been helpful in this thread. Even recommended another supplier of tranfos that might be less expensive for you.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry to hear this IPodPJ, but why is this your fault, since the builder (Steve) chose the wrong part 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Of course it isn't my fault, but he is already going above and beyond for me with this build so I wouldn't ask him to pay for it. I just want to make sure that everything ordered is up to spec and exactly as AMB calls for, and when you guys started talking about it I thought it would be best to ask Ti. Since I had told him about the parts pages on the AMB site I thought that is where he got the info from. When I asked him earlier about it and he mentioned the amp will be able to put out 25 watts (presumably at the typical speaker rating of 8 ohms) and that I'm not going to be using this to drive speakers anyway, I questioned it remembering that I've read the amp can put out 50 watts at 8 ohms.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow expect for maybe his last statement that was probably said in jest he has been helpful in this thread. Even recommended another supplier of tranfos that might be less expensive for you._

 

Meh, either way


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And FYI, I spoke to Ti before you posted._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just want to make sure that everything ordered is up to spec and exactly as AMB calls for, and when you guys started talking about it I thought it would be best to ask Ti._

 

So which was it? Did we (and by that, I mean me) start talking about it first, or did you contact AMB first?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Perhaps Steve has a solution in mind, like assuming some sort of line conditioner, using Schottky diodes as rectifiers, and removing the MOSFET cascode in the PSU?_

 

Nothing was going to be changed.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No it's not Arial. Typographically there is a clash with the script font and headline font, the script looks of a 1915 era whilst the Beta22 and Sigma22 logos look 1980's.

 Alas typography is a lost art form, as is careful kerning/leading etc._

 

indeed it is, I have spent a good deal of time selecting the font i'm using, DAX, because it comes in many different weights and variations, si accent can be created while still maintaining the same look throughout. not that there are many words. I may still use one of my own creation, used to be a specialty of mine, a skill I havent found an excuse to use for a while now. cheers fellow word nerd.

 wow this thread took an interesting turn in the last day, very interesting indeed. thanks for the traffo link Beefy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 want to get some potted traffos for my buff at some point


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow this thread took an interesting turn in the last day, very interesting indeed._

 

Indeed, how about we steer this back on topic a bit?

 The SumR potted trafos are quite nice.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow this thread took an interesting turn in the last day, very interesting indeed. thanks for the traffo link Beefy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 want to get some potted traffos for my buff at some point_

 

Just be 'warned' that the smaller units require a relatively large case. The two 30VA units I have for my DAC project are 94mm wide, 110mm long (plus wire exits) and 50mm high; MUCH larger than the ~60-70mm diameter for a 'standard' 30VA unit.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you try to switch the order, you should also make sure you specify electromagnetic shielding, rather than electrostatic. You'll probably end up with the same thing, but it pays to use the correct terminology.

 And for future custom orders, consider Richard Sumner (SumR). He is extremely flexible and reasonably priced for custom orders._

 

According to Steve and to Plitron, it's "electrostatic" shielding. Perhaps it has a different purpose.


----------



## qusp

nice!! they should do nicely, my case is >70mm tall and 2U thinking that the placids would like some nice traffos. do they have a large minimum order as well?? or would an order for 3 suffice? tell me to get stuffed if you like, i'll google them.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* 
_Just be 'warned' that the smaller units require a relatively large case. The two 30VA units I have for my DAC project are 94mm wide, 110mm long (plus wire exits) and 50mm high._


----------



## n_maher

Enough with the bickering already.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nice!! they should do nicely, my case is 70mm tall and 2U thinking that the placids would like some nice traffos. do they have a large minimum order as well?? or would an order for 3 suffice? tell me to get stuffed if you like, i'll google them._

 

I ordered three with no problems, and I know of people ordering just one. Richard is very accommodating and a great bloke to deal with.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Enough with the bickering already._

 

Sorry boss


----------



## The Monkey

I like the B22 amplifier.


----------



## qusp

thanks! sounds great, now to see whether shipping to OZ costs enough to kill the option 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 if I want any haste.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks! sounds great, now to see whether shipping to OZ costs enough to kill the option 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if I want any haste._

 

Well the 30VA units weigh well over 500g each, so shipping isn't going to be cheap whatever you do.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like the B22 amplifier._

 

I like it too. Never heard one though


----------



## qusp

oh yeah I know it wont be cheap, i'm used to that and get heavier packages regularly, but some shipping is more equal than others if you know what I mean


----------



## The Monkey

iPod, I generally like the chassis design, you've obviously worked very hard on this and it shows. I do agree with the font comments. I also think using a single 4-pin balanced jack would a better way to go. I don't like the stainless steel, which I find a bit jarring. When in doubt, I say MOAR BLACK! 

 I have mixed feelings about blue LEDs. I like blue when it isn't too bright (like my B22). But blue LEDs can get super bright, which means super annoying. You indicated that visibility will be a consideration for the volume control, which means a certain level of brightness, in which case I would recommend orange or green. Or an On/Off/Dim switch (if such a thing does not compromise SQ or any other crap).

 Did you consider a loop out? I always like having that option, even though I really never use it.

 Finally, is the power switch a true power switch or will it put the amp into "standby"? Is that even an option?

 The above comments should be taken in light of the fact that my DIY skills are limited to building a Pimeta by the book and not understanding anything about this electricity business.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_iPod, I generally like the chassis design, you've obviously worked very hard on this and it shows. I do agree with the font comments. I also think using a single 4-pin balanced jack would a better way to go. I don't like the stainless steel, which I find a bit jarring. When in doubt, I say MOAR BLACK! 

 I have mixed feelings about blue LEDs. I like blue when it isn't too bright (like my B22). But blue LEDs can get super bright, which means super annoying. You indicated that visibility will be a consideration for the volume control, which means a certain level of brightness, in which case I would recommend orange or green. Or an On/Off/Dim switch (if such a thing does not compromise SQ or any other crap).

 Did you consider a loop out? I always like having that option, even though I really never use it.

 Finally, is the power switch a true power switch or will it put the amp into "standby"? Is that even an option?

 The above comments should be taken in light of the fact that my DIY skills are limited to building a Pimeta by the book and not understanding anything about this electricity business._

 

Thanks, Monkey.

 I may try other variations with the fonts before the laser etching is done, but I do like it as is. I change my mind a lot so it wouldn't be unexpected to end up with different fonts.

 The endcap is chrome or nickel plated steel, I believe. The volume knobs will most likely be made from aluminum or stainless steel.

 As far as the LED brightness, I wasn't planning on having it blindingly bright. Everything else in my system is blue though, and so I want it to match. I did play around with versions mixed with red and amber and while they looked nice I ultimately prefer the blue. I don't think there will be any dimmer, but I'm don't think it would be difficult to put an on/off switch in there (but Steve could say for sure, since we are using relays I don't know if it would be something simple or not. If it isn't a simple add, then it won't happen. This build has already become quite the project.)

 No loop out. No need for it or speaker outputs. Unnecessary connections are not welcome here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The dual 3-pin is necessary on the other hand because at least one of my HD800 cables will have completely separate left and right cables.

 I'm pretty sure the power switch is a true power switch (but Steve could say for sure). There won't be a master switch on the back or anything like that. So unless the amp normally goes into standby with a front panel switch, I can't imagine it not being a true power switch.


----------



## m1abrams

If the front power switch is a momentary switch then chances are it is connected to a circuit that drives a relay, this circuit would require its own transformer and always have power. I am doing this with my M3 build using AMB e24 circuit, however I did decide to go with an IEC that has a builtin switch this way I can power the whole unit off, course you could just unplug the thing. Not like the e24 and tranfo draw that much current.

 Also you have a IR in the unit will the IR power on the unit? If so that would have the same requirements as the momentary switch.


----------



## IPodPJ

The IR in the unit is only for the volume control motor drive. I'm not sure if it can be connected to the power switch. Since the power switch will be a push-button switch and not a microcontroller switch, I don't think it would work. That doesn't matter to me though because I have to power up my DAC from the front anyway.


----------



## IPodPJ

Whew... Luckily Plitron had not made it yet. They pulled production on it. The guy who is doing it won't be in until tomorrow, but the CSR said they did order the core but it might be the same and the only difference is in the windings. Is this correct? If the core is different I don't know what would happen and if I'd have to pay for it, but I'm they should be able to return it, hopefully. She says if it's just more winding in the wire and more wire needed it shouldn't be much more cost if anything.


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whew... Luckily Plitron had not made it yet. They pulled production on it. The guy who is doing it won't be in until tomorrow, but the CSR said they did order the core but it might be the same and the only difference is in the windings. Is this correct? If the core is different I don't know what would happen and if I'd have to pay for it, but I'm they should be able to return it, hopefully. She says if it's just more winding in the wire and more wire needed it shouldn't be much more cost if anything._

 

I believe the core is sized to the VA rating not the actually voltage output. Voltage output should only be based on the windings.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whew..._

 

I think the words you are looking for are: "Thanks Beefy, because despite never saying anything nice, and many being sick of you, you saved me $250".


----------



## scootermafia

Hooray for Plitron. It sounds to be like the 18V transformers would have technically worked under ideal conditions, but that given the design of the power supply and various losses, headroom, unevenness of line power, etc that you want much more power.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe the core is sized to the VA rating not the actually voltage output. Voltage output should only be based on the windings._

 

If that's true then they will need a different core because it's changing from 50VA to 80VA.


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If that's true then they will need a different core because it's changing from 50VA to 80VA._

 

Oh, yeah if you are going to a larger capacity (VA) then I would think they would need a different core.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the words you are looking for are: "Thanks Beefy, because despite never saying anything nice, and many being sick of you, you saved me $250"._

 

Was thinking that myself. Nothing more worthless than $250 worth of strangely configured custom Transfos.

 The title of the OP was Opinions Welcomed. There was a plethora of folks questioning the Transfos and the questioning was basically ignored and Opinions were not welcomed.

 The next lesson hopefully learned by Keyser Söze or whatever his name is, is that nobody is infallible or perfect. I get served up Humble pie here(and elsewhere) pretty much on a daily basis. Keyser Söze is uncharacteristically silent about this screwup.


----------



## n_maher

There once was a topic for this thread, I suggest we find it again rapidly or I'm going to lock it.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really! As already pointed out by everybody else, AMB clearly states that you lose 2V to the rectifiers, and you should allow an additional 9-10V for the 4V Vgs of the MOSFETs and 5V to burn off for the actual regulation. So to stay within those design limits, the S22 should really be set for only 15V; perhaps 18V, assuming your loaded voltage is still a bit higher than the fully loaded rating._

 

Yes, it's my fault. When PJ asked about secondary voltages, I was just thinking "24 volts" and wasn't thinking about the o22. 

 Truth be told, there's simply nothing that interests or excites me about this project. And if my heart's not into something, I'm more liable to commit oversights such as this one.

 From here on out I'm restricting my role in this to getting the chassis parts fabricated and assembling whatever parts are specified by PJ.

 se


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Truth be told, there's simply nothing that interests or excites me about this project. And if my heart's not into something, I'm more liable to commit oversights such as this one._

 

Huh. That is an _incredibly_ inspiring attitude from a MOT. Good luck with your future business endeavours


----------



## scootermafia

Not sure what isn't exciting about a B22. I guess you are building someone else's design though.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WOW, I love the positive inspirational message in that. Sounds a lot like sour bloody grapes mate._

 

No sour grapes at all. I'm simply stating the truth.

 What would you prefer I do? Lie? 

  Quote:


 So IPodPJ’s got a builder who can’t be arsed because he has no interest in this project. I’m speechless. 
 

He's got a builder who would prefer to stick to the task of building. 

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Huh. That is an incredibly inspiring attitude from a MOT. Good luck with your future business endeavours 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My MOT status has absolutely nothing to do with building amps for people. Nor is building amps for people something I have any interest in doing as any sort of business venture. 

 So if no one ever asks me to build an amp for them, I'll be perfectly happy with that.

 se


----------



## n_maher

unlocked, another deviation like what this just went through and the thread will be dumped.


----------



## johnwmclean

Thanks Nate, will try and keep it civil 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PJ what’s the latest with 18v transformers? I hope you were able to salvage your order. Amongst all the angst recently I’d like like to wish you all the best with the continuation of the build.

 Cheers
 John


----------



## fishski13

well if PJ is stuck with them and considering Plitron has a minimum $250 order, he should be able to sell them here or over at diyaudio pretty easily without a loss.


----------



## The Monkey

Would it bit possible to use one of those new digital volume controllers in this (or any other) B22?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Plitron hadn't started the build yet so he was able to put in a change order.

 se


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would it bit possible to use one of those new digital volume controllers in this (or any other) B22?_

 

I don't see why not, I think you can stick just about any pot in front of the beta22 provided it does not cause issues with your source.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would it bit possible to use one of those new digital volume controllers in this (or any other) B22?_

 

Sure.

 se


----------



## The Monkey

That's kind of cool.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would it bit possible to use one of those new digital volume controllers in this (or any other) B22?_

 

You're referring to the LCDuino arduino based controllers?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Nate, will try and keep it civil 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 PJ what’s the latest with 18v transformers? I hope you were able to salvage your order. Amongst all the angst recently I’d like like to wish you all the best with the continuation of the build.

 Cheers
 John_

 

The status is that Plitron was very cool and will be changing the order for me. I don't think I will have to eat anything. They hadn't started on the units yet, just ordered the cores (which I think they can return).

 The 50VA dual 15V secondaries will stay the same. That is only being used for the LEDs, relays and motor. (The motor runs on a "120V to 15Vdc 700mA Power supply".)

 The other two trafos are being changed to 80VA with dual 30V secondaries.


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The status is that Plitron was very cool and will be changing the order for me. I don't think I will have to eat anything. They hadn't started on the units yet, just ordered the cores (which I think they can return).

 The 50VA dual 15V secondaries will stay the same. That is only being used for the LEDs, relays and motor. (The motor runs on a "120V to 15Vdc 700mA Power supply".)

 The other two trafos are being changed to 80VA with dual 30V secondaries._

 

That is great news, they probably would not even bother returning the cores. It is not like they are unique to your trafos, they could be used for any trafo that has the VA rating you needed.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The other two trafos are being changed to 80VA with dual 30V secondaries._

 

So you're wanting a +/- 30 volt supply now instead of the +/-24 volt supply?

 If so, then we're going to have to order some different resistors for R10 on the o22 boards.

 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you're wanting a +/- 30 volt supply now instead of the +/-24 volt supply?

 If so, then we're going to have to order some different resistors for R10 on the o22 boards.

 se_

 

I told you that in e-mail, with those numbers exactly, that I was going with what Ti recommended. I never mentioned anything about +/- 24V. You know I know nothing about that stuff.

 He said at the very minimum it has to have +/- 25V, not 24V, but he used dual 30V for krmathis' build.

 Guess we gotta' order up those resistors. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's what Plitron is building.

 Does the parts list say what spec resistor we will need?


----------



## n_maher

Not that I have any interest in getting between you two...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *amb.org/beta22* 
_β22 is designed to operate between ±24V to ±30V DC rail voltages. Highest output voltage swing and output power is attained at ±30V, while ±24V will make the amplifier run cooler. The amplifier should not be operated outside the recommended supply voltage range._

 

Translation - 24V rails are fine, especially for a headphone amp.

 What Ti was referring to was that you would want to feed the sigma22 with at least 25V secondaries to get adequate regulation headroom for 24V rails. At least that'd be my guess.

 And could you guys not use this thread as your personal chatroom for design decisions? It's already kind of a weird thread without that content.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What Ti was referring to was that you would want to feed the sigma22 with at least 25V secondaries to get adequate regulation headroom for 24V rails. At least that'd be my guess._

 

Yeah, that is what Ti was referring to, the trafos for the sigmas.


----------



## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And could you guys not use this thread as your personal chatroom for design decisions? It's already kind of a weird thread without that content._

 

Agreed. I usually keep up with the β22 threads, but this personal stuff is just more irrelevant stuff to filter through.


----------



## The Monkey

How do Betas like tweaking? (i.e., how well does the design lend itself to add-on "features", etc.)?


----------



## swt61

I think they're pretty tweakable, but what kind of add on did you have in mind?

 Mine makes coffee too.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do Betas like tweaking? (i.e., how well does the design lend itself to add-on "features", etc.)?_

 

Depends what you adding on I suppose, the boards themselves require only the standard recommended components - tweaking these components or exchanging for boutique parts is shunned upon generally, I’ve heard it can also prove detrimental. Ti’s recipe is pretty much perfection IMHO.


----------



## nattonrice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the parts list say what spec resistor we will need?_

 

Dale RN55 is what I used.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nattonrice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dale RN55 is what I used._

 

That's what's being used here as well.

 se


----------



## The Monkey

Yeah, the love I have for my B22 is strong. The coffee option would be nice, though. The main reason I ask is that I know iPod doesn't want stuff to mess with the signal, and I just wonder about the motorized volume control.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The main reason I ask is that I know iPod doesn't want stuff to mess with the signal, and I just wonder about the motorized volume control._

 

It's only engaged when changing volume. 

 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nattonrice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dale RN55 is what I used._

 

Dale/Vishay, all the way!


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, the love I have for my B22 is strong. The coffee option would be nice, though. The main reason I ask is that I know iPod doesn't want stuff to mess with the signal, and I just wonder about the motorized volume control._

 

Considering it is a motor controlling a DACT, I doubt it will cause any negative side effects.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, the love I have for my B22 is strong. The coffee option would be nice, though. The main reason I ask is that I know iPod doesn't want stuff to mess with the signal, and I just wonder about the motorized volume control._

 

That's why I am using a 3rd trafo and separate power supplies: so the LEDs, drive motor and the power for the input switching relay won't be in the audio signal. I suppose I could even add a second IEC just for that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 but it would be a little ridiculous - and having 2 power switches would be pretty stupid.

 But you're correct, I don't want anything interfering with the signal. Pure as possible.


----------



## johnwmclean

Any progress PJ?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any progress PJ?_

 

Sure, there's always progress. It's just slow because it's progressing as I acquire funds. Just yesterday I ordered the DACT CT2-4 50kohm attenuator from Headamp (what a great price he's got them for). And tomorrow I'll order the remote motor drive from Bent Audio. We have the Elma switch for the input selector knob, I believe (but the signal will be going through the relays, not the switch). The trafos probably won't be delivered for another 2 weeks. All the beta and sigma boards are stuffed.

 Still need to order, other than what's listed above:
 - all the input and output jacks for signal, DC and IEC
 - 3 relays for custom input selection circuit
 - LEDs
 - have the knobs machined (I think I'm scratching the LED in the volume knob. Can't find a flat top blue LED the size I want. And the company that will sell me one of their existing knobs for their hi-fi gear, the knob is too small.)
 - buy and machine the chassis


----------



## FrozenGecko

Can't wait to see pics of the machined chassis!!! I'm guessing the photoshop design won't do it any sort of justice.


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- have the knobs machined (I think I'm scratching the LED in the volume knob. Can't find a flat top blue LED the size I want. And the company that will sell me one of their existing knobs for their hi-fi gear, the knob is too small.)_

 

Why not make your own flat top LED? Just requires a little sandpaper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or you could create a light bar for the LED in the knob.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not make your own flat top LED? Just requires a little sandpaper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or you could create a light bar for the LED in the knob._

 

That's how I think you would do it. With a Lucite Light Pipe.


----------



## IPodPJ

My first thought was to shave down the LED but that could be risky. The acrylic light bar idea was what we were planning on doing, but I don't have the budget to experiment with different custom options. All the LEDs I would want to match in color and brightness, and if we use a light bar on the knob and not on the rest of the LEDs they won't match.

 Finally I realized having all those LEDs might just be overkill and too bright, so I've decided to scratch the volume knob LED. The long light in the middle of the chassis might be a gradated teal to dark blue, like you see on the Marantz gear and on Sony ES stuff.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FrozenGecko* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't wait to see pics of the machined chassis!!! I'm guessing the *Illustrator* design won't do it any sort of justice._

 

Me too!


----------



## IPodPJ

*Progress update* (because I've received a lot of PMs about when it will be done):

 - All Beta and Sigma boards are stuffed
 - DACT CT2-4 attenuator arrived
 - Bent Audio stepped attenuator remote arrived
 - 3 custom trafos have just shipped from Plitron
 - all jacks, LEDs, wire, relays, input switch and custom PCB supplies are being ordered
 - Steve is about to begin the CAD work for the chassis

 Next steps:
 - Build the input selection relay board (signal is going through relays, not the switch)
 - Chassis to be purchased
 - Chassis to be machined, anodized, and lasered.
 - Get signal and DC cables made by DHC.
 - Install everything in chassis
 - Ship amp to me. (My favorite part)


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_- Ship amp to me. (My favorite part)_

 

That's going to depend on whether or not you come through with a weekend with Charlize Theron like you promised. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's going to depend on whether or not you come through with a weekend with Charlize Theron like you promised. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se_

 

I never promised that.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never promised that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's too bad.

 Think Plitron will take those trannies back? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

It's amazing what a little uh... persuasion can accomplish.

 Not long after I'd finished Thanksgiving dinner last night the doorbell rang. 

 It was Charlize, standing there with an overnight bag.

 So I wasn't too upset this morning when I was rudely awakened by the FedEx guy dropping off the transformers from Plitron.

 They did a fantastic job on them. The cans are finished in a fine "krinkle" finish powder coat and the bottoms with high density black foam.






 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Wait... wait... wait!!!!!! They shipped them to you overnight????? That was my dad's FedEx account number and I specifically told them to ship them regular service. I can't imagine what that bill will cost to ship overnight from Canada to California. Unbelievable.

 But they do look very nice! We never asked them to powder coat them, but hey, no harm done!

 By the way, where's the third one?

 Edit: Okay, I just tracked it. It was shipped International Economy. Amazing that it got there so fast. But they still should have shipped it with ground service.


----------



## Steve Eddy

They weren't shipped overnight. They were shipped "International Economy" according to the tracking information.

 They were picked up in Missisauga on Wednesday, the 25th.

 Edit: The third one's here. I just left it out of the photo as it made it too busy. I just wanted to get a shot of the top and bottom.

 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Yep, and I just got the price for how much that package cost to ship from them to you via International Economy based on the 10.4 lbs stated.... $98.79. I'm pretty pissed.


----------



## scootermafia

Places should tell you what shipping method they are going to use and what it costs rather than surprising you.


----------



## The Monkey

I hope there will continue to be discussions about shipping in this thread.


----------



## fishski13

maybe they don't ship ground? i'd call Plitron.


----------



## grawk

I think dinny has a good point. Some things should be private discussions. This is a great place to discuss comments and criticisms on the design of the amp...


----------



## scootermafia

It looks to me like the 4 output pads (sets of + - g) for each sigma22 are wired together. So, is there no benefit to 4 separate power umbillicals for the 4 boards if each pair of boards is hooked up to 1 power supply?


----------



## IPodPJ

We are not using 4 umbilicals. We are using one for left sigma22, one for right sigma22, and one for the auxiliary power.


----------



## The Monkey

I think the powder coat or krinklecoat or whatever they call it on the transformers looks great.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks to me like the 4 output pads (sets of + - g) for each sigma22 are wired together. So, is there no benefit to 4 separate power umbillicals for the 4 boards if each pair of boards is hooked up to 1 power supply?_

 

No. But as Ipodbvhesdh says, separate umbilicals from the two different S22's is a pretty good idea. Less magic smoke being released that way.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hope there will continue to be discussions about shipping in this thread._

 

I was hoping there would be more talk of killing Plitron, or words to that effect, but the original comments seem to have been edited out


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Places should tell you what shipping method they are going to use and what it costs rather than surprising you._

 

They do, Plitron uses UPS. PJ forced them to use FedEx so I'm sure they chose the method they felt most comfortable with. They were, after all, sending presumably hundreds of dollars worth of transformers internationally so there was some risk. And I'm with grawk, why this discussion ended up in this thread in the first place is a mystery to me.


----------



## bmwpowere36m3

I'm not surprised, my last transformer from Piltron (single 300VA trafo) cost $25 for UPS ground 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I'm sure that was the cheapest...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They do, Plitron uses UPS. PJ forced them to use FedEx so I'm sure they chose the method they felt most comfortable with. They were, after all, sending presumably hundreds of dollars worth of transformers internationally so there was some risk. And I'm with grawk, why this discussion ended up in this thread in the first place is a mystery to me._

 

I don't mean to continue the discussion about this but I have to comment on what you said. I _forced_ them to use FedEx? Where did you hear that from? They told me they use FedEx and at that point I told them I would give them my account number because we get a discount. I also told them to ship the cheapest method possible.


----------



## scootermafia

Yeah, that's bogus. The $30 and $100 methods are both insurable, surely. They didn't even stand to gain anything by shipping it the faster method, they just suck.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't mean to continue the discussion about this but I have to comment on what you said. I forced them to use FedEx? Where did you hear that from? They told me they use FedEx and at that point I told them I would give them my account number because we get a discount. I also told them to ship the cheapest method possible._

 

An assumption on my part, their site states they use UPS. Regardless, if you didn't have to pay import/duty fees on that package I'd count yourself lucky and walk away. Even if Ground had been cheaper I've been hit with huge fees by both FedEx and UPS when receiving packages from Canada. On the order of $50 for $300 package.


----------



## luvdunhill

The issue with FedEx is the don't collect duty up front, like UPS does. You might see a bill a month later, maybe three..


----------



## IPodPJ

[size=small]*FINAL REVISIONS TO FRONT PANELS
*[size=x-small]Thank you all for your suggestions. As you can see, some were implemented and others I felt would streamline it more and remove some brightness by eliminating some LEDs.
 The rear panels will have some major changes and I'll post those as soon as I can.

 Here's a rundown of what was changed to the front:

 - B22 and O22 logos were reduced by 15%
 - Font was changed on "Balanced Headphone Amplifier" and "Dual-Mono Power Supply"
 - Input knobs and Volume knobs were spread farther apart
 - Input knobs and Volume knobs were slightly reduced in size
 - Headphone jacks were slightly spaced apart more
 - Remote window was slightly moved down
 - All type below jacks and knobs were moved down slightly
 - Input selection identities were changed to numbers
 - Input selection LEDs were removed
 - Volume knob LED was removed
 - Tick marks were added around volume knob
 - Large LED bar in the middle was changed to have a gradating color similar to Sony ES products and some Marantz products.
 - Power supply power button was reduced in size slightly and bevel was added to the chassis around the button.

 and

 - I may change "SE" to "TRS", still haven't decided.
 [/size]*





*[/size]


----------



## limpidglitch

You came to your senses I see 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Much more tidier.


----------



## ShinyFalcon

Will your volume pot be able to rotate a complete 360°?


----------



## m1abrams

What is up with the Fonts changing sizes?

 Example the "O" and "E" in Volume appear larger than the other letters. Same issue in "Left", "Right" and "L/R"


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ShinyFalcon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will your volume pot be able to rotate a complete 360°?_

 

No, it rotates 345 degrees. I'm guessing Phil didn't want to offset the indicators so that the first position was at 6:00 instead of 6:30.

 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is up with the Fonts changing sizes?

 Example the "O" and "E" in Volume appear larger than the other letters. Same issue in "Left", "Right" and "L/R"_

 

Must be an optical illusion. They are all the same.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it rotates 345 degrees. I'm guessing Phil didn't want to offset the indicators so that the first position was at 6:00 instead of 6:30.

 se_

 

The first position, or zero position is at 6:00. That is why there is a O below it, because it is silent.
 If the 23 includes the silent position, then I added one too many spots and will fix it.


----------



## johnwmclean




----------



## ShinyFalcon

Whoops, I was somehow thinking of a regular analog pot, which led me to that question. Lazy math thinking here, of course those doesn't rotate 360° 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The first position, or zero position is at 6:00. That is why there is a O below it, because it is silent.
 If the 23 includes the silent position, then I added one too many spots and will fix it._

 

You're fine.

 se


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...._

 

Nah, I don't like that. Looks dirty.


----------



## johnwmclean

^ Just a suggestion, for those people that already know their left from right.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ Just a suggestion, for those people that already know their left from right. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 






 Yes, most of us do, but you never know when someone is going to plug the wrong cable in.

 I will most likely change the SE to TRS though.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 Yes, most of us do, but you never know when someone is going to plug the wrong cable in._

 

When someone tries to plug there 3 pin into a 4 pin XLR.


----------



## IPodPJ

*

 CHASSIS FEET - BOTTOM VIEW

*












*AMPLIFIER CHASSIS FRONT PANEL - OUTSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER CHASSIS FRONT PANEL - INSIDE VIEW*







*POWER SUPPLY CHASSIS REAR PANEL - OUTSIDE VIEW (part needs to be re-made, fuse holder and IEC outlet are in the wrong place)*







*POWER SUPPLY CHASSIS REAR PANEL - INSIDE VIEW (part needs to be re-made, fuse holder and IEC outlet are in the wrong place)*







*AMPLIFIER CHASSIS REAR PANEL - OUTSIDE VIEW*







*POWER BUTTON - UPSIDE DOWN VIEW (2 were made so that I could anodize one in clear and one in gray to see which I like more, same with
 the volume knobs which I don't have pictures of yet)
*






*XLR OUTPUT JACK MOUNTING BRACKET (this goes behind the front panel so that the XLR jacks can be mounted from behind without any screws
 showing, and so that I can have them seated in the position I want them to be. The jacks mount to this bracket, and the bracket mounts to
 the front panel)
*






*POWER SUPPLY CHASSIS FRONT PANEL - INSIDE VIEW*


----------



## m11a1

Oh my god.........*jaw drops*

 By the way, it looks heavy for the thickness; any clue on the weight?


----------



## sachu

looking gorgeous...talk about heavy metal


----------



## FallenAngel

Holy F&$#! Are you trying to make that Beta22 bullet and blast proof? Looks great!


----------



## IPodPJ

I'll update the thread with what the parts are. I'm a little busy at the moment though. Thanks!

 These now need to be shipped back to me so I can have them anodized and bead blasted, then back to my builder.

 The front panels are 5/8" thick 6061-T6 aluminum. The rear panels are 1/8" thick, I believe.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m11a1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh my god.........*jaw drops*

 By the way, it looks heavy for the thickness; any clue on the weight?_

 

Not sure yet, the aluminum is pretty lightweight, but the chassis are enormous. They are power amp size chassis. 5.5" Tall by 17" wide. Two of them.


----------



## m1abrams

Curious as to how much your chassis is going to cost. My guess is those chassis alone will be well past $1000 US. Would not be shocked to hear the 2 chassis alone is more than $2K.


----------



## Deadneddz

That amp is gunna look sweet Phil! I'm glad that its closer and closer to being completed. I myself picked up a 4 channel, 2 sigma B22 myself as of recent.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Curious as to how much your chassis is going to cost. My guess is those chassis alone will be well past $1000 US. Would not be shocked to hear the 2 chassis alone is more than $2K._

 

The cost to machine these parts alone is about that much ($2k). Then you have to add the price for the top and bottom panels and the heat sinks. Then you have to add the cost for bead blasting and anodizing. Because this is a one off run these chassis are going to cost about $3.5K. And that's only because I'm buying the top and bottom plates and the heat sinks from a company who made the amp on which this design was similarly based on. If I had to do the machining on those too the chassis would be closer to $4.5K. The heat sinks in this chassis are only for aesthetics. They are not being used for any purpose. If this amp was also going to be used for speakers than I would utilize those heat sinks.


----------



## grawk

proof money and sense aren't related


----------



## The Monkey

Looking great. It's cool to see it coming along.

 Just out of curiosity, what makes the machining costs so high to fabricate a chassis in this manner (I know nothing about this stuff).


----------



## Duggeh

A wild Chassis appears!

 Chassis used astonishing price.

 Duggeh is confused.

 Duggeh used common sense.

 It's not very effective.


----------



## krmathis

Oh my, oh my! That is what I call progress... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Beautiful!


----------



## Nebby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking great. It's cool to see it coming along.

 Just out of curiosity, what makes the machining costs so high to fabricate a chassis in this manner (I know nothing about this stuff)._

 

The cost are in the labor and time required to set up the machines. It's a fixed cost so in a large run the cost per chassis lowers. In a single build like this though, you end up paying a ton per chassis since it's only one.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The rear panels are 1/8" thick, I believe._

 

1/2".

 se


----------



## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A wild Chassis appears!

 Chassis used astonishing price.

 Duggeh is confused.

 Duggeh used common sense.

 It's not very effective._

 

Priorities, desires are different that's all. Am sure most people would think the same of most of us who spend even a couple of hundred bucks on headphones let alone thousands..everything's subjective.
 Honestly, the price isn't too astonishing considering the work involved and the size of panels used for a single run.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_proof money and sense aren't related_

 

Proof some people can be real ********.

 se


----------



## johnwmclean

I’m happy to see this progressing so very well, the panels look amazing, puts my laser-cutting to shame.

 So how long now till, final completion, are all the boards built and tested? 

 Guys come on...
 I really don’t care what other people spend, it’s none of my business and who really cares. I’m bloody glad to see someone going all out, just to see what can be done is a great learning, I’m enjoying the updates!


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I’m happy to see this progressing so very well, the panels look amazing, *puts my laser-cutting to shame*._

 

Not at all! I personally much prefer the understated/clean/simple look that yours and my projects share. Money has nothing to do with it


----------



## adamus

back on topic, i for one cant wait to see the result of this. 

 Looks awesome. Hell, if you have the cash then why not!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_back on topic, i for one cant wait to see the result of this. 

 Looks awesome. Hell, if you have the cash then why not!_

 

Lots of saving up, and major help from Steve (Koyaan I. Sqatsi) who took my designs and made the CAD files and who is building it. Without him, this project would never have been possible.


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not at all! I personally much prefer the understated/clean/simple look that yours and my projects share. Money has nothing to do with it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Agreed! but... at the same time I’m intrigued to see a cost no object extravaganza, and find there’s is nothing wrong with that approach either, if one has means.


----------



## atothex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys come on...
 I really don’t care what other people spend, it’s none of my business and who really cares._

 

Well, you would care if it was your friend. That's the whole point of giving anyone advice: to save them money and aggravation.

 Anyways, kudos to PJ on the chassis alone being more costly than any headphone amp I've ever heard of, as well as being much pricier than your source. That's quite a feat.


----------



## gp_hebert

I'd rather spend that kind of money on something that can actually influence sound reproduction, for example a Stax SR-007 and SRM-717 combo, plus a few CDs. To each his own...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, you would care if it was your friend. That's the whole point of giving anyone advice: to save them money and aggravation.

 Anyways, kudos to PJ on the chassis alone being more costly than any headphone amp I've ever heard of, as well as being much pricier than your source. That's quite a feat._

 

I could have done it cheaper, sure. But I wanted a commercial-looking product. The insides will be just as nice as the outside.

 The chassis does not exceed the cost of some amps. The RSA B-52 sells for $5500 and the Blue Hawaii is right there, too. Not to mention some of those crazy Single Power amps. But with all parts in this amp included, yes, it exceeds the cost of any in-production amp that I know of.

 To me the 4ch Beta22 is the best dynamic headphone amp I've come across, so I wanted something stunning I would have forever.


----------



## atothex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Certainly not the most expensive. The RSA B-52 sells for $5500 and the Blue Hawaii is right there, too._

 

I mean in terms of parts cost; I have no idea what your labor cost is.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnwmclean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really don’t care what other people spend, it’s none of my business and who really cares. I’m bloody glad to see someone going all out, just to see what can be done is a great learning, I’m enjoying the updates!_

 

x2

 Punk.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The heat sinks in this chassis are only for aesthetics. They are not being used for any purpose._

 

Wait, what? You're kidding, right?


----------



## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyways, kudos to PJ on the chassis alone being more costly than any headphone amp I've ever heard of, as well as being much pricier than your source. That's quite a feat._

 

It's got to be the most dubious feat I've heard about in this hobby.


----------



## sachu

Don't let the detractors on this thread bring your spirits down..I say go with what pleases you. It is already looking good but I do raise both my eyebrows at you not using the heatsinks and only having them for "aesthetics", but whatever floats your boat man. 

 This is hardly the craziest thing I have seen someone do in this hobby. People spend double what you are shelling out on a half meter length of power cord..comparatively, this is quite sane IMO. 

 Or take for instance people spending on Bose or B&O systems just cause they like the look and brand equity.

 Go with what makes you happy.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or take for instance people spending on Bose or B&O systems just cause they like the look and brand equity._

 

In all fairness, you can buy a LOT of Bose for $3k.


----------



## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In all fairness, you can buy a LOT of Bose for $3k._

 

Was only using it to make my point..and quantifying a "LOT" in terms of sound quality or just a LOT of mediocre sounding products is two different things.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sachu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and quantifying a "LOT" in terms of sound quality or just a LOT of mediocre sounding products is two different things._

 

How about these alternatives then......

 3 Blue Hawaiis
 4 KGSS
 5 Exstata
 10 M3s

 Or any combination thereof. All fully cased and ready to go.


----------



## atothex

Well, to be fair, if someone is happy with $3k worth of Bose, then we shouldn't care about his spending habits, either. Their ears, their money.


----------



## les_garten

Does seem to be a hell of an oversight not to "Engineer" in the use of the heatsinks. Still time to put it in place maybe. If you're going to dump the $$$ in that nice Heavy AL, why not make it work for you? It also makes for a box that is not all for "SHOW", but has some "GO" associated with it.


----------



## sachu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about these alternatives then......

 3 Blue Hawaiis
 4 KGSS
 5 Exstata
 10 M3s

 Or any combination thereof. All fully cased and ready to go._

 

Let me respond to that in this way, even if could buy a HD800, PS1000, Sony R10 or even an O2+BH system, I would turn it all down and still go and get a Fostex T50RP woody and stacker amp for a fraction of the price as I find it to work better for me. 

 Just a matter of synergy and what works for you best. If you find something that fits you great then why not pimp it out if you can.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait, what? You're kidding, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

There are heat sinks on the boards. This is not being used as a speaker amp, only a headphone amp that's only putting a max of 1/2 watt into the HD800. The reason for the heatsinks is because it's part of the chassis design that I based this from, the Coda CS. The chassis is not a solid piece, it has a panel for the top, bottom, front, rear, and the sides are the heat sinks. In order for the nickel plated endcaps to be flush you need to use the heatsinks. Otherwise I would have had to design new top and bottom panels, as well as side panels and that would have cost a LOT more money to do that I just don't have. This way, I can just buy those parts from Coda. But I like the look of the heatsinks anyway. If I ever decide to turn it into a speaker amp, I can make use of them and just re-do the rear panel. I would need to get speakers first, other than my BX5a monitors.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In all fairness, you can buy a LOT of Bose for $3k._

 

Yeah, a LOT of plastic and other cheap **** from China.

 se


----------



## luvdunhill

looks okay. I would have gone with solid copper. Yeah, it's a bit more expensive, but it performs better from a heat transfer standpoint and also from a vibration deadening standpoint. Looks like there is plenty of room to improve upon BJ's design, IMHO. Cannot wait to see who decides to step up to the plate and out-do this design!


----------



## n_maher

I guess my point is that it would seem trivial (compared to the work invested so far) to simply make use of the heat sinks now.

 And this is my comment as a moderator, enough of the implied profanity guys.


----------



## The Monkey

Is there a relatively easy performance tweak that would make it run hotter (other than fire, of course)?


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a relatively easy performance tweak that would make it run hotter (other than fire, of course)?_

 

improve the b22 design. Get rid of the cascode device and parallel mosfets like a real amp...


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a relatively easy performance tweak that would make it run hotter (other than fire, of course)?_

 

Just increase the quiescent current; deeper into class A.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_improve the b22 design. Get rid of the cascode device and parallel mosfets like a real amp..._

 

Could light a fire with humour that dry


----------



## IPodPJ

Picture post updated with description tags.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6509937-post241.html

 Also, the illustrations in the first post are no longer correct. I have changed font size and position of certain things, and feel that it looks better.
 I will post new illustrations when I get a chance. Also, the TRS jack has been replaced with a combo 3-pin XLR/TRS jack. This was done for
 aesthetics, but you could also use the 3-pin XLR for an unbalanced connection instead of the TRS jack.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just increase the quiescent current; deeper into class A.



 Could light a fire with humour that dry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If you were going that direction, the use of the Heatsinks would have been nice


----------



## The Monkey

Are the chassis feet for spikes?


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just increase the quiescent current; deeper into class A.
_

 

I was actually going to suggest that! Well, without the fancy words, just deeper into Class A. I've learned something!


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was actually going to suggest that! Well, without the fancy words, just deeper into Class A. I've learned something!_

 

yay! now onto gate capacitance!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess my point is that it would seem trivial (compared to the work invested so far) to simply make use of the heat sinks now._

 

That's up to Steve. If it's easy enough to do and won't hinder our internal layout in any way, I'm sure he could.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are the chassis feet for spikes?_

 

No. They look just like they do in my illustration. The pictures you are seeing is the bottom of the foot. They will be screwed into the chassis, and then a circular felt pad will be put into the depression.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yay! now onto gate capacitance!_

 

I thought gate capacitance was why cascoding is such a useful design choice?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just increase the quiescent current; deeper into class A._

 

It's already running at 160mA. Into 300 ohms, that's over 8 watts. Even into 32 ohms it's nearly 1 watt.

 Don't think there's much out there that would ever take it out of class A.

 se


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's already running at 160mA. Into 300 ohms, that's over 8 watts. Even into 32 ohms it's nearly 1 watt.

 Don't think there's much out there that would ever take it out of class A._

 

Oh, absolutely. But Monkey asked, I answered.

 Still, many people claim that for these MOSFETs, having a higher bias increases linearity and decreases distortion.


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't think there's much out there that would ever take it out of class A_

 

arc welding?


----------



## luvdunhill

The function of the output stage cascode is to create a constant voltage across the output device at all costs. It is the Vas stage job to drive the gate capacitance of the output stage, which can get hairy due to non linearities in gate capacitance. The choice of how to do this seems to have a important impact on design as a whole. Perhaps not as much as the chassis design, but still some.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's already running at 160mA. Into 300 ohms, that's over 8 watts. Even into 32 ohms it's nearly 1 watt.

 Don't think there's much out there that would ever take it out of class A.

 se_

 

If it puts 8 watts into 300 ohms (I thought it was 6W though), wouldn't it be higher than 1 watt at 32 ohms if the amp is capable of 50W at 8 ohms (if we had configured it that way and used bigger heatsinks and higher VA trafos)?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Still, many people claim that for these MOSFETs, having a higher bias increases linearity and decreases distortion._

 

Even at 160mA, it's spec'd at around 0.001% into 33 ohms.

 Do we really need to go back to the spec wars of the 70's?

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_arc welding?_

 







 Remember when Audio magazine took a big Levinson amp and fed it a 1kHz sinewave and used it to arc weld two pieces of metal together? 

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it puts 8 watts into 300 ohms (I thought it was 6W though), wouldn't it be higher than 1 watt at 32 ohms if the amp is capable of 50W at 8 ohms (if we had configured it that way and used bigger heatsinks and higher VA trafos)?_

 

I was basing it on the output stage bias current.

 se


----------



## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 Remember when Audio magazine took a big Levinson amp and fed it a 1kHz sinewave and used it to arc weld two pieces of metal together? 

 se_

 

I love that story. Even cooler perhaps is the fact that there was a Crown model that was actually used for welding for some aerospace application..


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love that story. Even cooler perhaps is the fact that there was a Crown model that was actually used for welding for some aerospace application.._

 

Yeah.

 Coda's had inquiries from companies with high current applications, such as driving MRI coils and the like.

 se


----------



## winzzz

very nice pj...i would have done the same if i had the money..and balls..


----------



## linuxworks

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 Remember when Audio magazine took a big Levinson amp and fed it a 1kHz sinewave and used it to arc weld two pieces of metal together? 

 se_

 

amateurs.

 a 440hz wave would have welded AND sounded much nicer (lol).


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *linuxworks* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_amateurs.

 a 440hz wave would have welded AND sounded much nicer (lol)._

 






 se


----------



## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess my point is that it would seem trivial (compared to the work invested so far) to simply make use of the heat sinks now.

 And this is my comment as a moderator, enough of the implied profanity guys._

 




 I concur with the first sentiment. Given the gargantuanly herculean, titanic, olympian, deityesque level of expenditure involved in this project, not incorporating a design which offers the fullest thermal (read: fullest electrical) usage of this amplifier seems frankly daft. Not incorporating the speaker level output in the design (even if not including bidning posts, the K1000 and other such esoteric uses [AMT, Ribbon, electrostatic via transformer]) is an oversight which seems deliberately pointless.

 With regard to the second sentiment, do you mean that the negative comments should be withheld by those who hold them (despite the very clear and openly inviting title of this thread)...

 ... or do you mean don't hold back, stop beating about the bush, and use more open articulation in disbelieving and/or satirical critique?


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With regard to the second sentiment, do you mean that the negative comments should be withheld by those who hold them (despite the very clear and openly inviting title of this thread)...

 ... or do you mean don't hold back, stop beating about the bush, and use more open articulation in disbelieving and/or satirical critique?_

 

I mean that Head-Fi's rules stipulate that the site is G rated (Jude's term). The use of profanity, implied or otherwise has always been against the rules. As far as I'm concerned people are free to express their opinions as long as their conduct is within the rules that I am asked to enforce. PJ put in the thread title that opinions were welcome, so I assume he's fine with all opinions too. The only other thing that I'd add is that people be respectful in expressing their opinions or in responding to opinions that have been expressed. If someone feels that an opinion or response was disrespectful there is a handy button located on each post that allows it to be reported. 

 You may now resume the sacrificing of large pieces of aluminum.


----------



## Duggeh

Ah the sweary words and cursing. IC.


----------



## n3rdling

Nice panels
 How long until it's all completed you think?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n3rdling* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice panels
 How long until it's all completed you think?_

 

Well one of the panels is wrong so hopefully they can make me a new one quick. If not that will add a few weeks to it. But assuming they do it in a few days, I'll probably have the thing done by end of April.


----------



## n3rdling

Time for a new meet?


----------



## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well one of the panels is wrong so hopefully they can make me a new one quick. If not that will add a few weeks to it. But assuming they do it in a few days, I'll probably have the thing done by end of April._

 

Are you giving any reconsideration to actually utilising the heatsinks?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you giving any reconsideration to actually utilising the heatsinks?_

 

We discussed it. Steve said it's not really feasible. The attenuator and remote control motor drive extend too far back in the chassis plus there are other PCBs going in there, not to mention it would totally change the way we are wiring this which is to keep it as cleanly routed as possible, which won't happen if the Beta boards are on opposite sides of the chassis. It is a big chassis.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n3rdling* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Time for a new meet? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sure, but not with this amp. I'm not going to be dragging this thing around. You've already seen my luck with meets. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're more than welcome to come over for a private listening session though.


----------



## jude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean that Head-Fi's rules stipulate that the site is G rated (Jude's term)...._

 

Just to clarify for everyone, in the rules it reads:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rules* 
_Considering that our member base is made up of people from a wide range of ages, from pre-adults to senior citizens -- and also a great variety of cultures, beliefs and social standards -- swearing on the forums is not allowed. Our general standard is this: if it would not be allowed on U.S. network primetime television, it will most likely not be allowed on Head-Fi's forums. If you need further clarification, feel free to contact a moderator._

 

As far as MPAA ratings go, I'd say that's probably more commensurate with a PG-13 rating than a G.

 Getting myself back on topic: Steve, I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. Over the years, I was hoping you'd someday get involved in headphone audio, man.


----------



## n3rdling

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, but not with this amp. I'm not going to be dragging this thing around. You've already seen my luck with meets. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're more than welcome to come over for a private listening session though._

 

How much do you think it will weigh?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n3rdling* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much do you think it will weigh?_

 

Each chassis will be about 35 - 40 lbs.


----------



## Currawong

An enviable build indeed. I'd suggest including the speaker terminals and throwing a couple of small monitors on your desk in near-field. There are times I found it to be a good break from headphone listening.


----------



## IPodPJ

I have active monitors on my desk and they are hooked up to my Ref7 (although due to the nature of the Ref7 I will have to disconnect them when using the Beta22). The panel is already made, no speaker terminals. I was contemplating it, believe me, but in the end I decided to have an amp specifically devoted to headphones, not a swiss-army knife of sorts that could potentially negatively effect the headphone SQ. If and when I do move to a place where I can have full-size speakers I'll consider building a Beta24, or whatever new project Ti might have in the works.

 The Beta22 will have two XLR inputs and one current input with passive I/V conversion to accommodate the current output of the DAC, with a three-way dip switch to select either 1.5V, 3V, or 5.33V.


----------



## n_maher

What did you go with for a gain setting on the boards PJ?


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was contemplating it, believe me, but in the end I decided to have an amp specifically devoted to headphones, not a swiss-army knife of sorts that could potentially negatively effect the headphone SQ._

 

There is nothing different about speakers versus headphones, other than the connector......

 ...... IF the build was planned to actually make use of the expensive chassis to accommodate for the heat dissipation.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What did you go with for a gain setting on the boards PJ?_

 

It was either 5 or 8 unbalanced from memory - certainly high enough to drive speakers to reasonable volumes.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Each chassis will be about 35 - 40 lbs._

 

Wow. That's some serious weight. But I like components with mass. My D70 is 55 pounds, and while a serious pain in the ass to move, I like that it is rock solid stable on the shelf.


----------



## swt61

I can certainly see why there are some raised eyebrows as to the amount of money spent that does not pertain to SQ.
 That being said, the workmanship and design of this project have to be recognized. The design and aesthetics are stunning, and the shear scale of the project is just...well cool!

 This hobby is full of 'why not' idealisms. Heck, all of my friends outside of the hobby think I'm insane for spending the kind of money I do. Especially to drive headphones.

 I have to admit that aesthetics are important to me as well. My own 4 channel ß22 w/dual σ22's was perfectly fine in the two chassis they were built in, but I wanted something nicer and more unique. Would I spend this kind of money on aesthetics alone? Definitely not, but that doesn't stop me from being able to appreciate the workmanship involved.

 I am intrigued by this build, and enjoy keeping up with it.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As far as MPAA ratings go, I'd say that's probably more commensurate with a PG-13 rating than a G._

 

Given that not even asterisks are allowed (this is deemed "implied profanity") or any mention of anything to do with drugs, or nudity, I'd say it's more G as far as actual enforcement goes. Even PG allows some profanity and nudity. And PG-13 allows drug use.

  Quote:


 Getting myself back on topic: Steve, I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. Over the years, I was hoping you'd someday get involved in headphone audio, man. 
 

Well, this project wasn't exactly what I had in mind for my first involvement in headphone audio, but how can you say no to this?


----------



## TimJo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love that story. Even cooler perhaps is the fact that there was a Crown model that was actually used for welding for some aerospace application.._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Steve Eddy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah.

 Coda's had inquiries from companies with high current applications, such as driving MRI coils and the like._

 

I remember at Cal Poly there was a really nice vintage McIntosh amp that we used to drive the magnetic coil on a shake table in the vibrations lab.


----------



## les_garten

Steve Eddy;6512264 said:
			
		

> Given that not even asterisks are allowed (this is deemed "implied profanity") or any mention of anything to do with drugs, or nudity, I'd say it's more G as far as actual enforcement goes. Even PG allows some profanity and nudity. And PG-13 allows drug use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TimJo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember at Cal Poly there was a really nice vintage McIntosh amp that we used to drive the magnetic coil on a shake table in the vibrations lab._

 

Ha! Sweet!

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Steve Eddy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
Given that not even asterisks are allowed (this is deemed "implied profanity") or any mention of anything to do with drugs, or nudity, I'd say it's more G as far as actual enforcement goes. Even PG allows some profanity and nudity. And PG-13 allows drug use.



 Well, this project wasn't exactly what I had in mind for my first involvement in headphone audio, but how can you say no to this?
 .

 

_

 

Was there supposed to be a reply in here somewhere?

 se


----------



## Steve Eddy

.


----------



## jude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Steve Eddy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Given that not even asterisks are allowed (this is deemed "implied profanity") or any mention of anything to do with drugs, or nudity, I'd say it's more G as far as actual enforcement goes. Even PG allows some profanity and nudity. And PG-13 allows drug use...._

 

Steve, if I wanted to argue you this with you, I'd ask you to call me so that I could hang up on you once you started in on this.

 Drop it already. None of the mods--and that includes me--wants to bicker with you, and so we won't.

 Like I've said before, if even 1% of the people here don't agree with a particular decision, that's still a lot of people, when you consider the numbers. And guess what: I'm not arguing with them either.

 Now let's keep this thread on track.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What did you go with for a gain setting on the boards PJ?_

 

I went with 5. For awhile I was seriously contemplating going with 2. But I wanted to have enough gain if I decide to switch the I/V conversion to a lower voltage. And the purpose of the lower voltage is to maximize the travel on the attenuator.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went with 5. For awhile I was seriously contemplating going with 2. But I wanted to have enough gain if I decide to switch the I/V conversion to a lower voltage. And the purpose of the lower voltage is to maximize the travel on the attenuator._

 

Remind me since I'm loosing my mind, what's the attenuator scheme and more importantly what's the max attenuation step prior to mute (assuming it has a mute fxn)?


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Remind me since I'm loosing my mind, what's the attenuator scheme and more importantly what's the max attenuation step prior to mute (assuming it has a mute fxn)?_

 

Its a DACT. Steve complains about the switching mechanism frequently.


----------



## IPodPJ

It's a 4 channel DACT attenuator with 23 steps, 24 positions. It's 50k ohm, I believe -- I bought it from HeadAmp. I'm not sure if the 1st position is mute or not. And there is a Bent Audio motor drive with remote control for it. That's what the little hole (window to cover the IR receiver) is for right above the 4 XLR output jacks.


----------



## IPodPJ

*POWER SUPPLY REAR PANEL (BEING REPLACED) - BOTTOM VIEW*








*POWER SUPPLY FRONT PANEL - INSIDE VIEW*







*POWER SUPPLY FRONT PANEL - OUTSIDE VIEW*







*POWER BUTTON (2 WERE MADE FOR DIFFERENT ANODIZING OPTIONS) - (LOOKS LIKE CHAMFER IS MISSING, NEEDS TO BE FIXED)*







*POWER BUTTON (CONTINUED)*







*POWER BUTTON (CONTINUED)*







*XLR OUTPUT JACK MOUNTING BRACKET - BOTTOM VIEW*







*XLR OUTPUT JACK MOUNTING BRACKET*







*XLR OUTPUT JACK MOUNTING BRACKET (CONTINUED)*







*XLR OUTPUT JACK MOUNTING BRACKET (CONTINUED)*


----------



## IPodPJ

*POWER SUPPLY REAR PANEL - INSIDE VIEW (PART BEING REPLACED)*







*POWER SUPPLY REAR PANEL - INSIDE VIEW (BEING REPLACED)*







*AMPLIFIER REAR PANEL - INSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER REAR PANEL - INSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER REAR PANEL - INSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER FRONT PANEL - INSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER FRONT PANEL - INSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER FRONT PANEL - OUTSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER FRONT PANEL - OUTSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER FRONT PANEL - OUTSIDE VIEW*







*AMPLIFIER FRONT PANEL - OUTSIDE VIEW*







*CHASSIS FEET*







*CHASSIS FEET*







*CHASSIS FEET*


----------



## krmathis

...and more and more impressive it gets! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Awesome!


----------



## vcoheda

looks nice. what's ETA for completion.


----------



## smeggy

Man, I have to say I love the panelwork. I'm a complete sucker for overengineered madness.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_looks nice. what's ETA for completion._

 

Thanks. Well, since they are able to do the replacement panel for me by Wednesday I should still be on schedule for completion end of April/beginning of May.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *smeggy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Man, I have to say I love the panelwork. I'm a complete sucker for overengineered madness._

 

I wouldn't say it's over-engineered. There are a few custom circuits on the inside, the remote volume control, and the nice casework. I want it to look as nice or nicer than a commercial product.


----------



## aloksatoor

heheh looks like its machined to aircraft grade tolerances


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aloksatoor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_heheh looks like its machined to aircraft grade tolerances 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Between 0.003" - 0.001".


----------



## LeMat

What company are you dealing with for the machinery work ? looks pretty awesome !


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeMat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What company are you dealing with for the machinery work ? looks pretty awesome !_

 

Hong Kong Fast Machining. I had to do it in China because locally they wanted twice as much, some places three times as much. Even some places in China wanted to charge the same as local machine shops. I'd much rather support local businesses but just didn't have the budget for it. The good thing about this company is that they are owned and run by westerners, so I didn't have any communication problems with them. Their service has also been really good. Hopefully when the parts arrive they will be in good shape and there won't be any defects. I'll let you know when I get them in about a week.

 Doing a one-off is very costly because the setup charge (which is the bulk of the cost) isn't amortized over a large production run. I've had a lot of requests to turn this into a production piece and sell them and while I'd love to do that, the planning for that would be a ways away, but if that were to happen the cost for the machining per unit would definitely be less than what I paid for this "prototype".


----------



## IPodPJ

Parts shipped. Should have in a few days.


----------



## Beefy

Please, let us know when they are on the delivery van.


----------



## nikongod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've had a lot of requests to turn this into a production piece and sell them and while I'd love to do that, the planning for that would be a ways away, but if that were to happen the cost for the machining per unit would definitely be less than what I paid for this "prototype"._

 

I think thats a great idea!


----------



## Omega

Looks great!


----------



## IPodPJ

*VOLUME and INPUT SELECTION KNOBS
*They are missing the indicator and need to be sent back to be corrected.
 These were done by a local company.


----------



## aloksatoor




----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you giving any reconsideration to actually utilising the heatsinks?_

 

To re-respond to this, I agree with you guys and decided they should be utilized. I have asked Steve to do this. It will however make the wire routing less clean. But all (or most) of the wire (26 AWG DHC Nucleotide for the amplifier chassis, 18 AWG Neotech OCC Copper for the power supply chassis) will be covered with Steve's (Q) custom black cotton sleeving so they will still look nice. There will just be more use of wire ties, and longer wire length required.


----------



## IPodPJ

The parts arrived today. Some of you have asked for high-res images so here are 93 that I took tonight:

 Link 1:http://seeupload.com/403amp%20shots%202.zip

 Link 2: http://d01.megashares.com/dl/0y5XJnd...0shots%202.zip
 Password: amp

 Edit: New, revised link with color corrected and cropped photos. Two download sites to choose from.


----------



## Listen2this1

Anything New?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Listen2this1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anything New?_

 

Got the knobs back from the people who did them in Sacramento. They were all scratched up so I had my local machine shop re-face them.

 Tomorrow I'm going to the finishers where the parts will be anodized, grained and bead blasted. They should be ready Friday or Monday and I will take new pics then. Then they will be on their way to the laser guy to etch the text out of them. Once that is done, it's off to Steve to start assembling the amp.


----------



## IPodPJ

Pictures of the knobs:


----------



## m1abrams

Ok I do like pics and I am enjoying following this build. But come on do we really need 19 photos of the knobs!


----------



## johnwmclean

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok I do like pics and I am enjoying following this build. But come on do we really need 19 photos of the knobs!_

 

I’m looking forward to the solder joints.


----------



## Beefy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m1abrams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok I do like pics and I am enjoying following this build. But come on do we really need 19 photos of the knobs!_

 

There are so many knob jokes I could make now, but won't.

 In all seriousness, I still don't like the chassis design, but those knobs _are_ nicely done...... but I'm afraid to ask how much they cost, for fear the answer will make me swallow my tongue.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Beefy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are so many knob jokes I could make now, but won't.

 In all seriousness, I still don't like the chassis design, but those knobs are nicely done...... but I'm afraid to ask how much they cost, for fear the answer will make me swallow my tongue._

 

I don' think you'll swallow your tongue. However, almost a certainty that you'll barf in your mouth a little though...


----------



## Pars

Just curious... I know you designed the case itself (aesthetics), but who actually designed all of the pieces that make it up? You or Steve?


----------



## IPodPJ

For the internals: I told him what I wanted inside, and he is designing a few PCBs to make that happen.
 For the externals: He took my illustrations and created the Autocad files. The only things that were existing were the heat sinks and the top and bottoms.

 As for the knobs and how much they cost, $120 for all of them.


----------



## m1abrams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 As for the knobs and how much they cost, $120 for all of them._

 

Wow that is actually damn near cheap! If my math is right that is only $20 per knob which I would consider cheap for custom metal work.


----------



## swt61

I've always valued my knob much higher.


----------



## IPodPJ

It's because there is a lot charge and they can get a certain amount of pieces out of the piece of aluminum they use. One or six would have been the same price. If I did a larger run they would be even cheaper. And they are quite hefty too.

 I may redo the knobs at a later date after it's assembled. Right now they are 1.75" in diameter and will protrude 1.125" from the surface of the faceplate. I might want them to protude only about 0.9", I haven't quite decided yet. I'll need to see it assembled.


----------

