# Bravo Audio - funny looking little tube amps



## ear8dmg

Valve Class A Hybrid Tube Headphone Amplifier pre amp B on eBay (end time 07-Oct-09 17:24:57 BST)

 Seen a lot of these turning up on ebay recently. Anyone have any thoughts on them or tried one? Is it dangerous to have the parts exposed like that?


----------



## BigTony

I have one on the way, be interesting to hear it. Hopefully it will pass electrical safety testing at work!


----------



## Kees

There's more to it than meets the eye.
 Shipping weight: 600 Kg.


----------



## punkaroo

Dude, it's still only $12 International Shipping. It looks cool!


----------



## scootermafia

They look cool but the exposed sides give me the willies.


----------



## ear8dmg

I'm getting tempted. How hard can it be to add a surround of some sort that'll stop you putting your fingers where it's best not to?


----------



## BigTony

I plan to get a guy in the workshop here at work to make me some sides from perspex.


----------



## iriverdude

Can't see those PCB solder/tracks lasting very long before lifting. Poor design.


----------



## ear8dmg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BigTony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I plan to get a guy in the workshop here at work to make me some sides from perspex._

 

Just a thought - tube amps can get pretty hot. Make sure you leave some vents.


----------



## spookygonk

_/subscribes to thread_

 These look interesting, look forward to a review.

 Looks like there's another thread on these amps here.


----------



## ear8dmg

Well I bit too. One on its way.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They look cool but the exposed sides give me the willies._

 

Don't be afraid. It won't bite. It's only running on a 24 volt DC supply.

 You want terminal case of the willies? Check out Don Garber's open-frame designs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 k


----------



## Mr C

So this guy sells amps and tea.
 Hmm why does this sound strange.
 Cant wait for a mini review though, will probably buy one just for fun.


----------



## ear8dmg

Got an email to say it had been shipped. Bit random for what must have been early Sunday in HK. Fingers crossed.


----------



## mrarroyo

This amp has been out for a while, I remember reading about it a while ago. I do not believe many here have bought it.


----------



## wallace

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ear8dmg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got an email to say it had been shipped. Bit random for what must have been early Sunday in HK. Fingers crossed._

 

Me too,plus about eight others on ebay last night.I tried to ignore it but just had to hit the button.Just what i need, another amp!! Still it does look cute


----------



## ear8dmg

Mine's just arrived. Just had a quick look at it. Build quality looks sturdier than expected. Some of the connections people thought looked supsect are glued down. Tidy job too by the looks of things.

 Not sure I'll have time to try it this eveing. Could be the weekend before I give it a spin.


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr C* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So this guy sells amps and tea.
 Hmm why does this sound strange._

 

It isn't strange at all. Nothing's better than listening to music and sipping some good tea.


----------



## BigTony

Well mine was shipped 14 days ago and still not arrived, nor has a ransom note from the VAT man....
 Maybe soon ....


----------



## ear8dmg

No customs note for me. I'm on some sort of roll. Never had to pay one yet.


----------



## Jodet

Very cool. I'll look forward to hearing comments when they arrive.


----------



## ear8dmg

Well - it turns out I do have time to get in a quick listen. The good news is that it sounds pretty good for the money. Fantastic improvement over my CMOY for smoothness and realism of tone (harmonics etc) and detail with my DR150s. The bad news is that it's a bit of an RF/EMI magnet and the volume pot is noisy anywhere above a pretty low setting (Edit: buzz in mid positions and hiss at high volume). I need to go and find something to use as a faraday cage...


----------



## wallace

Had mine for a day now,Does sound good for the money ,thou is really a desk top toy.Got a pair of 1960's Philips (dutch) 6DJ8 valves last night on fleabay.Will give it a try,if anybody in uk wants the other one give me a pm .My volume pot is inky black at all settings,i must have a faraday cage i didn't know about,!! May not work best with grados,but they are all i have these days so cannot compare..Might just go back to the LD1+ later tonight..Nice blue glow thou..


----------



## ear8dmg

I suspect I'm getting noise because it's being used near my PC and wi-fi router. Get the blip-di-di-blips when my phone goes off too.

 Managed to find a spot on the desk where it doesn't get the wi-fi buzz now though. Very nice little amp if you can keep the noise floor down.


----------



## wallace

Mines in the next room,on its own shelf on a TNT flexy rack,this could explain the total silence.Shame cause i bought it to go on the desk next to the pc. Just as well MR Grado made me buy an extension lead.


----------



## ear8dmg

Anyway - now it's in a quiet spot - switched to my NS1000s. Spent the last 20 minutes or so grinning like an idiot.

 Don't ask me to make rational judgements on it just now. Enjoying the music too much.

 Edit: Never used a tube amp before so novelty factor is high and expertise pretty lacking.


----------



## FraGGleR

Saw a picture of this in another post. I WANT one now. But they are $80+$35 shipping from indeed on ebay. Is that what you guys were paying? There are a couple regular auctions but they are already around $30-40 with 3-5 days left, which means they will probably get up close to that $80 mark. A headfier said he got it for close to $30 and is very pleased with the sound. Are these worth $115?


----------



## achristilaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Koyaan I. Sqatsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't be afraid. It won't bite. It's only running on a 24 volt DC supply.

 You want terminal case of the willies? Check out Don Garber's open-frame designs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 k_

 

I have a Fi X and the sides have perforated sheet metal along the edge! The only worry would be curious small children!


----------



## shrisha

One for me on the way too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Already got Philips valve. Can't wait to try this cutie.


----------



## BigTony

I picked mine up from the PO yesterday - but it looks like it took a beating in transit - the volume knob is all skewed and scratched. So I set the volume at halfway, then powered it up and attenuated the input - worked ok.
 Nice sounding amp - very nice for the money - much better than a Cmoy and cheaper too. Going to make a nice little office rig - well after the volume know problem has been sorted. Makes you realise how little is required to get good sound, and how much we spend on 'cosmetics' like a nice case, volume knob, I/O jacks etc - but no place for little fingers!


----------



## ear8dmg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saw a picture of this in another post. I WANT one now. But they are $80+$35 shipping from indeed on ebay. Is that what you guys were paying? There are a couple regular auctions but they are already around $30-40 with 3-5 days left, which means they will probably get up close to that $80 mark. A headfier said he got it for close to $30 and is very pleased with the sound. Are these worth $115?_

 

Paid $38 + $12 shipping to the UK in an auction for mine. I saw a few go cheaper. It looks like they started hiking the cost up once they got more popular though. All in all, cost me just under £30. Cheaper than my CMOY and better sounding. Still very pleased.

 Bought some metal mesh to cover the sides with since then though. I have a young baby in the house and it'll only be a few months before he starts getting curious.


----------



## earthpeople

Kinda cool looking!

 Anyone have impressions on how it works with the Senn HD580/600/650 family?

 [edit: Every time I look at it, I want to get it more and more, just to see how it is. Damn, maybe if I can sell some of my other gear, I'll pick one up.]


----------



## ttan98

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squid+* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kinda cool looking!

 Anyone have impressions on how it works with the Senn HD580/600/650 family?

 [edit: Every time I look at it, I want to get it more and more, just to see how it is. Damn, maybe if I can sell some of my other gear, I'll pick one up.]_

 

I have one here playing with my Sen HD595, an open back headphone, which is 50ohm, sinc3 Bravo or Indeed amp is class A is able to handle the load with ease. Recommended.


----------



## mbutter

Mine arrived yesterday, well packaged and in good shape. Been using it for about two hours with my Senn HD580s. Have to say I am really impressed. There is lots of detail, clarity, air, all that good stuff. The main thing is though that it has got the power to drive the HD580s. A lot of amps I have tried just do not have the necessary oomph (technical term) to get the best out of these headphones. This little amp grabs them by the scruff of the neck and makes them sing. I have the volume control at 8 0'clock and that is ample. I have read that these are not the last word in bass. To me the bass is all there, solid and kicking without being bloated. All in all a well balanced sound. I am now wondering if I still need my Little Dot II++. 

 One caviat, it does run very hot. The heatsinks on the transistors and regulators are too hot to touch, so I won't (touch them). I'll just enjoy the sounds and hope it is reliable.


----------



## ear8dmg

Praise indeed. I have to say that since buying this thing I've been pressing the fast forward button a lot less in Foobar2000 and just listening to the music. I'm taking that as a good sign.


----------



## electra

I like the sounding of this little amp with the Shure SE530, the buzz is driving me crazy. Any member has any idea how to eliminate the buzzing.


----------



## ttan98

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *electra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like the sounding of this little with the Shure SE530, the buzz is driving me crazy. Any member has any idea how to eliminate the buzzing._

 

Try it with another headphone if the buzz is still there then there is something wrong with the unit, talk to the supplier on how to fix it.


----------



## earthpeople

Hey guys, since this thread has come back up, I have some information.

 Last night I ebay messaged the guy who sells these amps, asking when he's going to list some more for auction. He said that he'll start listing them again on the 15th of October, because the amps are undergoing some changes. He says it'll be worth the wait, but no information regarding the changes themselves. I'll try to find more info from him.


----------



## lecky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squid+* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys, since this thread has come back up, I have some information.

 Last night I ebay messaged the guy who sells these amps, asking when he's going to list some more for auction. He said that he'll start listing them again on the 15th of October, because the amps are undergoing some changes. He says it'll be worth the wait, but no information regarding the changes themselves. I'll try to find more info from him._

 


 Interesting. Perhaps worth waiting. I noticed there's another vendor who is currently selling these things though - indeed-hi-fi-lab. I don't know anything about them though. 

 I'm pretty tempted one way or another... Must... Resist...


----------



## BigTony

I had a problem with my amp - its noisey - so its gone back - and he said that the new amps will be out after the 15th.


----------



## 00940

The description of the amp made my day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Q: This Amp has only 1 Tube, how can It amplifier stereo signal?
 A: There are 2 triodes in this Tube (6N11), It's just like dual core CPU in your PC. So both channels were get amplifiered by the Tube.


----------



## lecky

I just pulled the trigger on the upgraded version of this - it has a couple of upgraded capacitor (Rubycon - I don't know the fist thing about this, supposedly improves filtering noise & power stability and a Chemi-Con), an upgraded headphone socket, an alps pot, a better 3.5mm input and stronger RCA connectors. We'll see... It'll be my first valve amp. Fun.


----------



## noparanoia

I just brought one of these as well, it was only £30 with shipping so if the sound is half decent I will be pleased. Can anyone who has heard one give me an idea of how it will compare to my Headroom ultra-micro amp and DAC (I know I probably should have asked that before I brought it!) 
 Mostly I am just hoping the fact that it is a tube amp will make it sound very different, as I really cant see it sounding better than my headroom gear.


----------



## ttan98

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noparanoia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just brought one of these as well, it was only £30 with shipping so if the sound is half decent I will be pleased. Can anyone who has heard one give me an idea of how it will compare to my Headroom ultra-micro amp and DAC (I know I probably should have asked that before I brought it!) 
 Mostly I am just hoping the fact that it is a tube amp will make it sound very different, as I really cant see it sounding better than my headroom gear._

 

This amp will sound different to your Headroom amp for these reasons:

 1. Higher distortion mainly 2nd harmonics, greater 0.1% and less than 1%(*) 
 at 1V output.It will worsen as tube ages. The higher dist. will give it a 
 tube sound.
 2. Operates in Class A mode.

 A combo of these 2 factors will give this amp a large sound stage and good imaging.

 Enjoy your purchase.

 * based on the tube supplied.My 6922 tube gives higher distortion! Yes I measured it.


----------



## GaryPham

silly noob question since I'm new to amps, but what are the benefits (if any) of using RCA to mini interconnect as opposed to a mini to mini interconnect?


----------



## nkk

Nothing. I mean, theoretically there is less crosstalk as the channels have separate grounds all the way until they are comined at the 3.5mm end. However, this is assuming that the grounds are not combined right after the RCA end. if you could hear the crosstalk difference, I would want you to prove it in a rigorous DBT. If you pass that, I would have to question much of the science of what is below the human hearing threshold. 

 -Nkk

 PS: Are you sure you meant interconnect, as in cable? From the looks of the amp, did you actually mean connection into the amp? If you meant connection, nothing, as the ground wiring is the exact same right after the connector.


----------



## ashtray9

I just ordered one of these on the 'bay. I've very excited! Will be posting reviews when I get it. I will be pairing the amp with an AMB gamma 1 DAC. Has anybody here done any tube rolling yet?


----------



## kb1gra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ashtray9* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just ordered one of these on the 'bay. I've very excited! Will be posting reviews when I get it. I will be pairing the amp with an AMB gamma 1 DAC. Has anybody here done any tube rolling yet?_

 

I have a JAN Phillips 6922 waiting to go in when mine finally gets here from Hong Kong or wherever it's coming from.


----------



## noxlord

I just brought one (after tree lost bid yesterday, god ebay is stressful)

 I can't wait to pair it to my compass and AH-D2000. This will be my first tube amp


----------



## kb1gra

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noxlord* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just brought one (after tree lost bid yesterday, god ebay is stressful)

 I can't wait to pair it to my compass and AH-D2000. This will be my first tube amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

GIXEN - Free eBay Auction Sniper

 learn to love it. Sniping is the only way to do eBay when buy it now isn't available.


----------



## ashtray9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kb1gra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_GIXEN - Free eBay Auction Sniper

 learn to love it. Sniping is the only way to do eBay when buy it now isn't available._

 

Wow. I had no idea this even existed. I get bad vibes about it.

 On a side note, how does this bravo amp compare to a little dot I+? I'd never heard of the little dot until just now, and at a little over $100 dollars I am wondering if I should have just saved for that.


----------



## noxlord

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kb1gra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_GIXEN - Free eBay Auction Sniper

 learn to love it. Sniping is the only way to do eBay when buy it now isn't available._

 

Thanks you sooo much, actually, I was thinking about how this exact app would be so helpfull to me yesterday, it's funny how it worked out to be already out there.

 By the way, can anybody tell me if there are feets at all under the Bravo or is there only a screw-head ?


----------



## Judge Buff

Any updates or impressions from new owners?


----------



## wallace

No feet ,just screw heads.Looks pretty,but i have gone back to my LD1+,much better VFM as i see it.


----------



## ab111

I have ordered this and will do hopefully a thorough review once I have recieved it


----------



## lecky

I'll add what I can by way of comments when mine arrives. I've a GE JAN 5670 coming for it too.


----------



## goebish

Received mine yesterday: 





 It just starts to sound right after like 10 hours of burn in.
 Can't wait to do some tube rolling with this little baby, two ECC88 are on their way, a RFT and a Mazda 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 edit: very good article on compatible tubes 6DJ8 Tubes From Brent Jessee Recording


----------



## Oskari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll add what I can by way of comments when mine arrives. I've a GE JAN 5670 coming for it too._

 

5670? That can't be good... 5670 is not compatible with E88CC/6922.


----------



## lecky

Gahhhh, really? So Skylab's comment here - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/new...ml#post5539915 - was a general comment not appropriate to this amp? Oh dear...


 edit: OK I've sent an email to see if my order's been sent yet, perhaps I can change it...


----------



## Judge Buff

If I win my auction this weekend, I may have to get a 6922EH gold pin just for giggles. I haven't bought anything Russian since 1980.

 I really want to know how different kb1gra's Phillips JAN 6922 is from the stock Chinese 6N11. I may get one of them instead based on the reviews that are out there.

 I've got to start working on my Mini3, too... But GA plays FL in a couple of hours and I gotta watch... I guess I gotta get amped-up for these amps.


----------



## lecky

Luckily my tube order hasn't shipped so I can change to a Sylvania JAN 6DJ8. Thanks Oskari!


----------



## Oskari

Good thing we caught that in time.


----------



## ashtray9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Luckily my tube order hasn't shipped so I can change to a Sylvania JAN 6DJ8. Thanks Oskari!_

 

I too have a Sylvania 6DJ8 waiting to roll. I really love the way this tube looks with the green lettering. I made sure to have the triodes matched and balanced since this one tube does both channels. 

 That reminds me, how do amps work with a tube for each channel if each tube has two triodes within itself?

 I ordered my Bravo about two weeks ago. Hopefully it gets here soon.


----------



## jjinh

wow, these are even smaller than those miniwatt and earmax tube amps


----------



## lecky

My Sylvania 6dj8 arrived, it's cute. It gives an idea of how tiny this amp is going to be. Mine's been a little more than two weeks now. They say to expect 10 - 15 business days plus a couple of days for them to ship, so it should come this week...


----------



## Judge Buff

While I'm waiting for my Indeed to arrive, I'm getting a few 6dj8 equivalents to roll. I just got a Phillips JAN 6922 and I have a 1960's era Amperex ECC88 Orange label on the way. I'm looking for a Mullard equivalent, too. 

 I think it will be cool literally listening to electronics "history."


----------



## lecky

JB, I'll look forward to hearing your impressions. I hope the amp is able to justify the purchase of the tubes.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_JB, I'll look forward to hearing your impressions. I hope the amp is able to justify the purchase of the tubes._

 

No worries, lecky... I am shopping for bargains. And besides, if they suck in this little amp, I'll just put them on display in the curio cabinet that's in my study.

 My grandchildren can sell them to future geeks like me for college pocket-money. 

 Twain was once asked for investment advice. He supposedly replied, "Buy land... They aren't making any more of it." While there are modern tubes being made, the general consensus is that they aren't as good as the antiques. Even if the old tubes aren't functionally excellent, they are still _old_.


----------



## igotyofire

just ordered this amp as well. it will be my first amp, hope i enjoy it. barely owned my ath-m50 a few weeks now and already buying an amp. think im becoming obsessed. I know that my ath-m50, and my westone um1's are both often said do not need an amp, but this lil thing looked too cool to pass up. ive been seeking out a portable option but for the price i figured id give it a go since im not looking to go broke with this new found obsession of mine.


----------



## Amatsu

Hey. Any news? I'm interested in this amp but I would like to hear more opinions about it before buying. Any of you has had the chance to test/compare/review it?


----------



## ttan98

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Amatsu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey. Any news? I'm interested in this amp but I would like to hear more opinions about it before buying. Any of you has had the chance to test/compare/review it?_

 

If I am not mistaken, Bravo and Indeed headphone amps have similar circuitry, however the parts maybe different. You will find under the thread, Indeed etc, those who had bought the Indeed brand wrote a review on it. I bought 2 units of the Indeed headphone amp. I recommend it.


----------



## igotyofire

can the amp on this be changed later for an upgraded sound? i know nothing about doing that but i know it seems to be pretty common pratice on the forums here to tinker with different amps for different sounds.


----------



## blippster

My Bravo arrived today, even smaller than I had expected. I managed to snag mine at a better than average price, so I can't say I have to many complaints.

 I'm currently running it off a y1 DAC for source. Sonically I think it's decent, no giant-killer but a pleasant enough sound. From memory it has a pretty similar tone to the MHSS but is slightly less transparent, especially in the mids.

 Tweaks-wise, you could probably roll tubes and output caps, and perhaps increase the power supply capacitor further if you remove the top panel. Beyond that you might be better off with a more advanced design to begin with.


----------



## Amatsu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blippster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Bravo arrived today, even smaller than I had expected. I managed to snag mine at a better than average price, so I can't say I have to many complaints.

 I'm currently running it off a y1 DAC for source. Sonically I think it's decent, no giant-killer but a pleasant enough sound. From memory it has a pretty similar tone to the MHSS but is slightly less transparent, especially in the mids.

 Tweaks-wise, you could probably roll tubes and output caps, and perhaps increase the power supply capacitor further if you remove the top panel. Beyond that you might be better off with a more advanced design to begin with._

 

Thanks for the input. Does it drive your HD650 decently?


----------



## MomijiTMO

More importantly, does it fit inside your hd650?

 Com'on guys, take some funny pics.


----------



## ashtray9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Amatsu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the input. Does it drive your HD650 decently?_

 

This little guy is driving my HD600 with plenty of headroom to spare. As to dampening and such, I have nothing better with which to compare. Sounds great, though.


----------



## blippster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Amatsu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the input. Does it drive your HD650 decently?_

 

The Bravo has a lot of gain - I can barely turn the volume pot up to the level where the channels balance when using the y1. Volume-wise, it doesnt have an issue, but (imo) it doesn't quite have the finesse that I have heard with other amplifiers. This is using the stock tube, so I may try to get a 6DJ8 to roll and compare.


----------



## ab111

I am in the process of writing a review and will be comparing it with a similar price cmoy amp (penguin caffeine ultra, yes I know not the same type of amp but I thought it would be good for the budget head-fi'er to know which route they would like to go. And yes I do know they don't make the penguin caffeine anymore) I just bought the srh440 so I am in the process of burning those in as well so once its got a 50 or so hours of burn in, let the games begin. I will also be using a pair of ultrasone hfi 550's in the review.


----------



## ashtray9

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blippster* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Bravo has a lot of gain - I can barely turn the volume pot up to the level where the channels balance when using the y1._

 

Ha, I now have this exact setup. My y1 just showed up and I am using it to feed the Bravo. I was hoping for magic from this DAC, but knew to expect only minor improvement. I can hear more detail and sharpness in the treble, but that's about it so far. 

 Anyway, with the y1 being very hot I am only able to turn the amp to 9:30 before it's too loud. I wonder if maybe this amp needs a cooler DAC so that sweet Class A can actually get used...


----------



## MomijiTMO

Can we just remember that this is like a sub $50 amp and I'm 100% sure it punches above its weight but isn't designed to get 100% out of the HD600. Just in case people are looking at your posts ashtray9 and think that this amp is a perfect match for harder to drive phones.


----------



## zihao

i have my for about a week, i use the Ibasso D2 as the DAC and use the line out to RAC to connect to the Bravo amp then drive my K701, it is getting better and better

 volume setting for the K701 is about 10-11 o'clock, the sound is full of detail, i finally get the low(bass) out of the K701

 best for violin and the vocal with my K701, i am very happy with it, that is the first amp i have

 my Little Dot MK VII and a Yulong DAH1 MK II DAC are on thire way to me

 i will write another review to compare with the Little Dot MK VII by using the Yulong DAH1 DAC


----------



## goebish

I rolled the original 6N11 tube with a $15 NOS JAN Philips 6922 on ebay ( Philips ECG JAN 6922/6DJ8/ECC88 tubes, Brand New !!! - eBay (item 390059189907 end time Dec-11-09 06:31:37 PST) ), half the price of the amp 
 Woow ! Clearer bass and medium and better soundstage for sure !


----------



## lecky

I just got mine. Yay!

 Sounds nice - will burn in the stock tube and then try the tube upgrade before I comment seriously about the sound.

 The upgraded RCA connectors are strong.

 What I can say about performance is that this amp has a lot of gain and good power. No problem driving 600ohm vintage DT990s in terms of control or gain, my K340s have more and deeper bass with this than with my Heed Canamp too, they sound a bit richer, and tons of gain to spare even with these (I tried them on a Graham Slee Novo and it couldn't even provide enough gain to get decent volume levels).


----------



## fenixdown110

This is tempting since it's so cheap, but I'll save up for something better. The build has me worried.


----------



## wallace

Is it me!! or have i got a duff one!!When i plug my mp3 player into this Bravo,with the mp3 gain up full and bravo gain up full as well ,i don't have as much volume as i do with just the mp3 on it's own,it is quieter with added distortion.This happens on all mp3's and headphones,and also with different valves.Can i adjust anything or do i just use it as a paperweight.


----------



## goebish

I presume you received a bad unit, hey it's just chinese crap after all !
 I think you can tell about it to the seller, but if you've to return the bad unit to China, it will cost you some money


----------



## wallace

O well , a desk ornament it is then. Sod it


----------



## lecky

That's really too bad, sounds like you've definitely got a dud, I'd send an email to the seller and see what they can do.


----------



## wallace

Don't see the point in that,they ain't gonna send me a new one.Have fired the LD1+ back up and have put the Bravo on the desk in front of the computer screen to remind me not to bid on fleabay for stuff i really don't need.


----------



## Judge Buff

^ I bet that they would make good on it, wallace, if you notified them. You have nothing to lose by notifying them.


----------



## goebish

Maybe this is only a power supply issue, do you have another 24V@1A (well, 500mA should be enough) to try with ?
 Can you check that yours really output 24V with a voltmeter ?


----------



## wallace

Will give it a try.You never know. Thanks chaps.
 Power supply checks out fine,will get back to bravo and see what they say.


----------



## ashtray9

I'm sure there is a super easy fix as there are hardly any components on the board. I place my bets on a bad cap. You could also try maxing those two yellow pots and see what happens.


----------



## fenixdown110

Hey, it's a cool looking paper weight though.


----------



## wallace

Maxed out the yellow pots,no diff,walkman still sounds better with out it.
 I guess it's back to having the coolest paper weight on the block.


----------



## fenixdown110

You can salvage it parts later if you ever decide to.


----------



## Judge Buff

I posted this in the Indeed thread also... I wish we could compare the Indeed vs the Bravo.


----------



## zihao

sorry to hear that someone's amp has problem. try it with mine w1000, it drives it easily, it is been burned more than 70 hours so far. the sound is getting better


----------



## igotyofire

well my amp showed up today!






 initial impressions being my 1st amp and all, is even with my audio technica's ath-m50's which dont need a amp per alot of people the bass seems to kick harder at the lower frequencies then before at around the same listening volume. almost like it has a better response. I think people describe it as being tighter. I did think it was weird that i had to manually plug into the tube amp by hand. Does this easily remove without breaking? since i know alot of people like to try different tubes

 edit: another pic heh


----------



## fenixdown110

The look of it never fails to intrigue me. It's open air and lights up... I'm just not sure about it's sonic capabilities and reliability.


----------



## igotyofire

whats sonic capabilities? 

 at $40-50.00 bux shipped.....not so concerned about reliability..worth the risk to try compared to some the heavier priced items out there.....i think its an excellent 1st amp experience for me w/o breaking the bank, heh. Tho i see many here so far seem to be fine.


----------



## fenixdown110

Pretty much sound quality. I'm leaning toward the Little Dot MKII. The I+ would do as well with 408A tubes.


----------



## Mannevond

I just ordered one of these. I don't know jack about tubes, but I get the impression that changing the stock tube could improve the amps performance. What are good compatible tubes?

 I'm really looking forward to play with this both as a headphone amp and preamp for my livingroom rig


----------



## TheBigCW

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mannevond* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just ordered one of these. I don't know jack about tubes, but I get the impression that changing the stock tube could improve the amps performance. What are good compatible tubes?

 I'm really looking forward to play with this both as a headphone amp and preamp for my livingroom rig 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I do not own this amp (yet!) but from what I understand, the Sylvania 6DJ8 is one of the 'best' (of course it's subjective) tubes for this amp.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goebish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I rolled the original 6N11 tube with a $15 NOS JAN Philips 6922 on ebay ( Philips ECG JAN 6922/6DJ8/ECC88 tubes, Brand New !!! - eBay (item 390059189907 end time Dec-11-09 06:31:37 PST) ), half the price of the amp 
 Woow ! Clearer bass and medium and better soundstage for sure !_

 

will i be able to notice this difference if the difference to me between amped & unamped are subtle...granted i can hear the difference, but mostly between base with the stock tube... 

 if i upgrade the tube will i get a noticeable difference in sound i guess is what im asking


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_will i be able to notice this difference if the difference to me between amped & unamped are subtle...granted i can hear the difference, but mostly between base with the stock tube... 

 if i upgrade the tube will i get a noticeable difference in sound i guess is what im asking_

 

I did with several tubes. The Phillips JAN 6922 mentioned is my 3rd best sounding tube, so far. The best by far is a Siemens E88CC/6922 branded as an RCA. I had to tweak the pots to get it right, but it is unbelievably spacious with deep bass and precise mids and crystal highs. I have others on the way, but I doubt any of them will beat the awesome RCA.

 If you get a good replacement tube (6922, E88CC by Telefunken, Siemens, Philips, Mullard, et.al.) and you can't tell a difference from the stock tube, I wouldn't buy any more expensive audio gear, as you might never be able to discern the differences in great sounding music. My wife can't tell any difference between the TV and my surround sound system or a car radio and my SRH440s.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did with several tubes. The Phillips JAN 6922 mentioned is my 3rd best sounding tube, so far. The best by far is a Siemens E88CC/6922 branded as an RCA. I had to tweak the pots to get it right, but it is unbelievably spacious with deep bass and precise mids and crystal highs. I have others on the way, but I doubt any of them will beat the awesome RCA.

 If you get a good replacement tube (6922, E88CC by Telefunken, Siemens, Philips, Mullard, et.al.) and you can't tell a difference from the stock tube, I wouldn't buy any more expensive audio gear, as you might never be able to discern the differences in great sounding music. My wife can't tell any difference between the TV and my surround sound system or a car radio and my SRH440s._

 

thanks for the quick response, im not sure what pots are tho. Are those the legs that plug into the socket?...i want some relatively plug in play, i dont want to break anything if its an obvious adjustment of those legs and they bend easy then i wouldn't mind trying it. hopefully others will chime in on the fav tube so far


----------



## johnnyb3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wallace* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maxed out the yellow pots,no diff,walkman still sounds better with out it.
 I guess it's back to having the coolest paper weight on the block.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Mine shipped in late October, and when it showed up it didn't work properly -- in fact I got no sound besides a buzzy whine. I let the seller know, and they got back to me right away that there was a known issue with some of the power supplies they were shipping. They sent me a new power supply right away ('course, it took two weeks to show up). Now it works great, and I'm quite pleased all around.


----------



## fenixdown110

It will change the tube sound but won't magnify it.


----------



## lecky

The pots mentioned are the two little yellow things between the volume pot and the tube. I haven't got around to tweeking them yet.


----------



## Mannevond

What do the yellow pots adjust? Gain? If so, would lowering the gain too much cause oscillation like it will in opamp based amps like the CMoy (given that one uses an opamp which is prone to oscillation)?


----------



## brendon

Damm you head-fi ! I just bid and won one of the amps for $37 + shipping and I really did not need this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also bought a once tested Sylvania 6DJ8 tube to try out. - 6DJ8 X1 JAN SYLVANIA TUBE AMP APLIFIER TESTED - eBay (item 380167228242 end time Nov-25-09 03:36:22 PST)

 Hopefully I will enjoy these with the HD650. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I always wanted a tube amp for the HD650 but could not because of the high prices of tube amps & the fact that my dad makes home amps and I thought it would be rude to use something other than his amps. But this one is too cheap to pass the chance not to use it.


----------



## fenixdown110

I'm really having a debacle. It's either get this amp for under 50 bucks or save up and get a LDMKII or DarkVoice 336i/SE.


----------



## brendon

I say get this amp for cheap and then have some fun rolling the tubes. Find out which tubes sound best and then get a much better tube amp than the LDMKII next year.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mannevond* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do the yellow pots adjust? Gain? If so, would lowering the gain too much cause oscillation like it will in opamp based amps like the CMoy (given that one uses an opamp which is prone to oscillation)?_

 

is that what he means by tweeking? looks like a philips screw driver fits in the yellow tops, just turn them to adjust...what is the left and right one for when facing the front of the device?


----------



## Sebhelyesfarku

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I always wanted a tube amp for the HD650 but could not because of the high prices of tube amps & the fact that my dad makes home amps and I thought it would be rude to use something other than his amps. But this one is too cheap to pass the chance not to use it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

So now you use not just other amp than his, but a cheap one! Even more rude!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is that what he means by tweeking? looks like a philips screw driver fits in the yellow tops, just turn them to adjust...what is the left and right one for when facing the front of the device?_

 

"Tweaking" is making *small *adjustments. I only had to turn each pot ~10 degrees. I think the right pot is the heater current and the left is overall gain. Only adjust one at a time and know where the original position was for each.

 When I turned the right pot about 10 degrees counter clockwise, my right channel got louder and smoothed out. The left pot made the music louder when I turned it about 10 degrees clockwise. I didn't use a screwdriver. I used a decent pair of needle nose pliers while I was listening to the amp. I was *very, very careful not to touch anything but the wheels* when I was tweaking the pots.


----------



## weibby

It's crazy how these babies are flying off the shelves.
 So far 6 listing snipes have failed.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *weibby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's crazy how these babies are flying off the shelves.
 So far 6 listing snipes have failed._

 

supply & demand........bid higher


----------



## jageur272

There shouldn't be an overall gain pot (if it is, it's just volume, not true gain as tubes have set gain). Most likely, it's a bias trimpot.


----------



## tlau1125

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *weibby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's crazy how these babies are flying off the shelves.
 So far 6 listing snipes have failed._

 

I just got one at $32 + shipping, which to me is a reasonable price given the history. I just set my max bid and went to sleep, not expecting to win 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

 Anyone with experience using this with the Alessandro MS1i or similar Grado phones? Do they work well together?

 How long does the tube last typically?

 I'll post some updates after I receive it.


----------



## igor0203

I'm still waiting for mine and it's almost a month since I ordered it...


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igor0203* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still waiting for mine and it's almost a month since I ordered it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 probably the holidays slowing it down. i ordered mine on the 7th and it arrived on the 23rd. it takes some time, but with thanks giving just passing im sure that didn't help.


 btw i just ordered a "JJ/Tesla 6922 E88CC 6DJ8 preamp tube" from my understanding the jj/tesla is regarded as being pretty good amongst the tubes. & is priced good as well. so hopefully this will get me more that clarity im looking for hehe.


----------



## weibby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tlau1125* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just got one at $32 + shipping, which to me is a reasonable price given the history. I just set my max bid and went to sleep, not expecting to win 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 Anyone with experience using this with the Alessandro MS1i or similar Grado phones? Do they work well together?

 How long does the tube last typically?

 I'll post some updates after I receive it._

 

I was sniping all night with Gixen with 32-34, i get outbid every time! argh.
 Fate has not allowed me to get this cutie. haha.


----------



## tlau1125

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *weibby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was sniping all night with Gixen with 32-34, i get outbid every time! argh.
 Fate has not allowed me to get this cutie. haha._

 

Since you have set up sniping, just let it do its thing over a period of time. With some patience you'll eventually get the amp.


----------



## sixshades

I bought one a couple of hours ago for £21 (~$35) on ebay.
 Looking forward to receiving it, hopefully before Christmas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still not sure about it's safety though - what happens if you touch the top of that large capacitor that's uncovered? Anyone know what it's rated at and if it's conductive - I hope not. As mentioned before, I've got several kids and they do love to touch the untouchables.


----------



## justblair

Just bought one of these for a bit of fun and experimentation. 

 I ordered a used Brimar CV2492 as it looked like a good contender for a replacement. Will this be ok or should I look for something more expensive? 

 Initially I will be driving a set of original KOSS Pro4AA headphones that I aim to lightly restore.

 Santa has been e-mailed with a pair of HD650's hinted at. I've been really good this year, so there is a good chance that they will recieve an audition sometime soon on this amplifier. 

 If the above replacement valve is no good, can someone point me at a decent one?


----------



## fenixdown110

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sixshades* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought one a couple of hours ago for £21 (~$35) on ebay.
 Looking forward to receiving it, hopefully before Christmas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still not sure about it's safety though - what happens if you touch the top of that large capacitor that's uncovered? Anyone know what it's rated at and if it's conductive - I hope not. As mentioned before, I've got several kids and they do love to touch the untouchables._

 

Keep it out of view and sight when you're not using it. Charged capacitors are never safe to touch.


----------



## justblair

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Keep it out of view and sight when you're not using it. Charged capacitors are never safe to touch._

 

At 24v? 

 Anyway the case of the capacitor will not hold a charge.

 The biggest hazard to small fingers will be the hot heatsinks. 

 I am thinking about re-casing mine for that reason. Probably in a cheap aluminium enclosure with some created ventilation 

 That assumes that I like it.


----------



## jcoops16

I have also picked one these amps up today off ebay for £21 quid.
 It will be my first tube amp and where better place to start than at the bottom. All i need now is a selection of different tubes to roll, that will cost more than the amp and I might get an i/c so i can plug my ipod straight into it instead of from my dac.

 I just hope it will be able to do a decent job for my RS2i's


----------



## fenixdown110

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justblair* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At 24v? 

 Anyway the case of the capacitor will not hold a charge.

 The biggest hazard to small fingers will be the hot heatsinks. 

 I am thinking about re-casing mine for that reason. Probably in a cheap aluminium enclosure with some created ventilation 

 That assumes that I like it._

 

Hmm... You're right. I guess building a new case for it will take care of any potential hazards.


----------



## justblair

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm... You're right. I guess building a new case for it will take care of any potential hazards._

 

*Public Service Announcement*

 Don't get me wrong, caps can potentially be dangerous (well they can give a painful jolt at least) when found in recently used high voltage circuits (Think Switch mode power supplies or CRT monitors et al.) so they should be approached with caution, especially if you are dealing with an unknown circuit. The bits to avoid are the terminals though. 

*Public Service Announcement Complete!*


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justblair* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just bought one of these for a bit of fun and experimentation. 

 I ordered a used Brimar CV2492 

 If the above replacement valve is no good, can someone point me at a decent one?_

 

Amperex & RCA 6922s, any Philips Holland ECC/PCC88s, any Siemens ECC/PCC88s, Telefunken ECC/PCC88s. E88CCs are 6922 equivalents. Your 2492 is a British JAN 6922 (military specs); in general Mullards are preferred over Brimars. My best tube is a D getter Philips Miniwatt PCC88. It cost me $8 + shipping out of Bulgaria. German eBay has some incredible auctions.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fenixdown110* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm... You're right. I guess building a new case for it will take care of any potential hazards._

 

Just unplug it and set it up on a shelf when you're not using it... or let your kids see (with your supervision) just how hot the heatsinks are. 

 They won't bother it anymore. The sinks are almost as hot as a light bulb. Building a new case is overkill and it won't cool as well unless you install a fan. 

 My 5 year old granddaughter understood in about 30 seconds that the pretty lights were great to look at but not to touch. You can feel the heat at about 6 inches.


----------



## CPL593H

Got one (Bravo) the other day. It sounds more like a transistor amp, perhaps because the tube is a driver for a transistor output stage? It sounds nice, not as detailed as a JDS labs Cmoy with the Senn HD 448s. Perhaps I should get some AKG K702's? Think I will. 

 A track that really sounds good on the Bravo is "Now We Take Manhattan" from Jennifer Warne Famous Blue Raincoat, an old audiophile standard. It shines with vocals.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got one (Bravo) the other day. It sounds more like a transistor amp, perhaps because the tube is a driver for a transistor output stage? It sounds nice, not as detailed as a JDS labs Cmoy with the Senn HD 448s. Perhaps I should get some AKG K702's? Think I will. 

 A track that really sounds good on the Bravo is "Now We Take Manhattan" from Jennifer Warne Famous Blue Raincoat, an old audiophile standard. It shines with vocals._

 

It's the Chinese 6N1's fault... get a couple of 6dj8 equivalents or better and the difference will probably be palpable. A good Philips or Amperex will blow you away...


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's the Chinese 6N1's fault... get a couple of 6dj8 equivalents or better and the difference will probably be palpable. A good Philips or Amperex will blow you away..._

 

I've got some JAN 7308's and some JAN 6922's (I think they are Sylvanias) and even some RCA 7308 gold pins (Siemens). I'll have to dig them out and give it a try.


----------



## CPL593H

Judge Buff;6199867 said:
			
		

> It's the Chinese 6N1's fault... get a couple of 6dj8 equivalents or better and the difference will probably be palpable. A good Philips or Amperex will blow you away...[/QUOTE
> 
> So I tried the Siemens 7308 and I am indeed blown away. Now I need to get a good tube for this Bravo. I don't want to break up the pair of Siemens 7308's that I use in my phono preamp. Will try the JAN 7308's hope they sound good as I've got a bunch of those.


----------



## HappyOne

I finally got mine after 4 weeks in transit. 

 Anyone else having issues with buzzing from the power cord? If I move it around enough it eventually produces a thump and the lights brighten and the amp comes alive.

 I just emailed Henry to ask but maybe you have had his issue already too?

 I have a vintage Mullard 6DJ8 in there now and a JAN 6DJ8 Sylvania waiting for a turn too


----------



## CPL593H

The JAN Sylvania 7308 was better than the Chinese 6N11 but no match for the Siemens 7308 West German gold pin. Much less detailed top end. 

 So this little amp is worthy of a top notch European 6DJ8-type. Bought an ECC88 Mullard that I'll try next when I get it.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The JAN Sylvania 7308 was better than the Chinese 6N11 but no match for the Siemens 7308 West German gold pin. Much less detailed top end. 

 So this little amp is worthy of a top notch European 6DJ8-type. Bought an ECC88 Mullard that I'll try next when I get it._

 

that tube seems to run for more then this entire amp sells for.....eek! so assuming u have 100.00+ into this amp does it still make it a bargain? this is the only amp i have experience with and have no way of comparing it to anything else. hopefully my tube will be here soon so i can be blown away as well, kuz with all the talk in this thread about tubes this 6n1p is starting to bore me.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that tube seems to run for more then this entire amp sells for.....eek! so assuming u have 100.00+ into this amp does it still make it a bargain? this is the only amp i have experience with and have no way of comparing it to anything else. hopefully my tube will be here soon so i can be blown away as well, kuz with all the talk in this thread about tubes this 6n1p is starting to bore me._

 

You are right, putting a $100 tube in a $30 amp seems crazy. I already had the Siemens 7308's. They are in a phono preamp so I just tried one out in the Bravo as a reference to see if it was noticeably better than the 6N11.

 The JAN Sylvania 7308's are relatively cheap and easy to find. 

 I just bought what appears to be a 1960's vintage Mullard ECC88/6DJ8 for $28 on ebay that I'll use in the Bravo if it sounds good. That makes the Bravo about a $75 amp which ain't too bad.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are right, putting a $100 tube in a $30 amp seems crazy. I already had the Siemens 7308's. They are in a phono preamp so I just tried one out in the Bravo as a reference to see if it was noticeably better than the 6N11.

 The JAN Sylvania 7308's are relatively cheap and easy to find. 

 I just bought what appears to be a 1960's vintage Mullard ECC88/6DJ8 for $28 on ebay that I'll use in the Bravo if it sounds good. That makes the Bravo about a $75 amp which ain't too bad._

 

I paid $42 for my Indeed plus shipping and I've been rolling "bargain" tubes into it. The best tube I have found is a Philips Miniwatt PCC88 with a "D" getter that I bought for $8 out of Bulgaria. I prefer to think of this little amp as a great value that has a mediocre Chinese 6n11 valve in it. The most expensive tube I have is a rebranded Siemens RCA that I paid $20 plus US shipping. While this tube sounds extremely fine, it is currently about 4th in the list. Granted that some of these tubes I have acquired are worth much more than I paid for them, but I can't believe that for less than $70 total, I have a headphone amp that sounds this incredible.

 While both the Indeed and the Bravo are very simple amps, the key component is the tube. Get a tube with a pedigree, tweak the pots as necessary and enjoy!


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 While both the Indeed and the Bravo are very simple amps, the key component is the tube. Get a tube with a pedigree, tweak the pots as necessary and enjoy!_

 

Would like some more info on the proper way to tweak the pots, what causes the need to tweak them. I got a new "JJ telsa E88CC" tube made in slovak republic. & im a lil less then impressed. When i first put it in the amp, the left channel was louder and alot of cracking/static noises came out of it for about the first 15minutes. I started to disassemble the amp housing figuring i needed to tweak the pots. I then plugged the amp into my desktop speakers and the crackling when away & it sounded even thru both speakers. I then plugged my headphones back in and sure enough it seemed to balance it self out. Now i have been listening to this thing all day & the sound has improved, but so far i think the chinese "6n11 j" tube that it came with sounds much better. but just maybe not as good on the details(clarity) of things.

 So i guess my question now is do i need to just keep listening to it, or tweak the pots to see if the tube produces a sound to my liking. I was hoping to be blown away as others who rolled tubes described. maybe i should try the philips/jan 6DJ8


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I paid $42 for my Indeed plus shipping and I've been rolling "bargain" tubes into it. The best tube I have found is a Philips Miniwatt PCC88 with a "D" getter that I bought for $8 out of Bulgaria. I prefer to think of this little amp as a great value that has a mediocre Chinese 6n11 valve in it. The most expensive tube I have is a rebranded Siemens RCA that I paid $20 plus US shipping. While this tube sounds extremely fine, it is currently about 4th in the list. Granted that some of these tubes I have acquired are worth much more than I paid for them, but I can't believe that for less than $70 total, I have a headphone amp that sounds this incredible.

 While both the Indeed and the Bravo are very simple amps, the key component is the tube. Get a tube with a pedigree, tweak the pots as necessary and enjoy!_

 


 What do the trip pots set, the bias on the tube sections?


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would like some more info on the proper way to tweak the pots, what causes the need to tweak them. I got a new "JJ telsa E88CC" tube made in slovak republic. & im a lil less then impressed. When i first put it in the amp, the left channel was louder and alot of cracking/static noises came out of it for about the first 15minutes. I started to disassemble the amp housing figuring i needed to tweak the pots. I then plugged the amp into my desktop speakers and the crackling when away & it sounded even thru both speakers. I then plugged my headphones back in and sure enough it seemed to balance it self out. Now i have been listening to this thing all day & the sound has improved, but so far i think the chinese "6n11 j" tube that it came with sounds much better. but just maybe not as good on the details(clarity) of things.

 So i guess my question now is do i need to just keep listening to it, or tweak the pots to see if the tube produces a sound to my liking. I was hoping to be blown away as others who rolled tubes described. maybe i should try the philips/jan 6DJ8_

 

I've had tubes do what you describe, it is nerve wracking but apparently common. I think its caused by some junk like dust in the tube that gets burned up on initial break-in.


----------



## ttan98

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've had tubes do what you describe, it is nerve wracking but apparently common. I think its caused by some junk like dust in the tube that gets burned up on initial break-in._

 

Inside the tube is a near vacuum dust cannot get in.


----------



## SpoolinEclipse

Could any be kind enough to reccomend an upgraded tube to go with an AKG K702? I'm not looking to spend a fortune on a tube, but just something better than the 6N11. I've had a look at some of the tubes mentioned here in the post, but i'm not sure what would be a good match for the AKG.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttan98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Inside the tube is a near vacuum dust cannot get in._

 

A person assembles the tube by hand and then pulls a vacuum and seals it. The debris would be on the plate, cathode, grid, heater or frame prior to sealing. Obviously dust does not enter a sealed glass bulb.


----------



## derek800

I'm really interested in this amp but I don't have much experience in amps other than the fiio e5. The only two headphones I own right now are the HD 212 and the HD 238, so I am wondering if this amp would be a good choice for my current equipment. Does anyone know if this will make much of a difference with either of these, especially the 238's because I've read that although they are marketed as portable they may need more power than just an iPod to reach their full potential.


----------



## GaryPham

Hey Derek, I can verify for you first hand that this amp will make your HD238 sound fantastic. I have both an E5 and this Bravo amp and personally feel that the E5 is a bit underpowering for the HD238. The Bravo amp is much more powerful and the difference that you'll notice will be like night and day. I also use the Bravo to power my HD580's which I feel also matches up very well. The E5 is a decent portable amplifier, but I think that it's more suited for IEM's, while the Bravo should be more than adequate for most full-sized cans.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SpoolinEclipse* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could any be kind enough to reccomend an upgraded tube to go with an AKG K702? I'm not looking to spend a fortune on a tube, but just something better than the 6N11. I've had a look at some of the tubes mentioned here in the post, but i'm not sure what would be a good match for the AKG._

 

I don't know about matching the tube to the cans, but my Indeed has taken every tube I've put in it. Only two of the tubes have sounded badly. The 6N1 and an Amperex 6dj8 with an orange/white Holland label were mediocre at best. 

 It's my understanding that "all things being equal," tube "families" have personalities. That is, most tubes of a particular type, made at a certain facility during a particular time-span have the same characteristics. There are several sites that talk about various tubes' characteristics. Don't let the prices quoted out there scare you off. You can find the same tubes for much cheaper. You can't go wrong with a Siemens, a Mullard, a Telefunken or a Philips Holland. JAN 7308 and 6922 (E88CC) tubes are generally good as are 2492 (British Mil Spec). There are great bargains in PCC tubes, too, so snap them up.


----------



## SpoolinEclipse

Thank you kindly Judge. I'm going to browse around and hopefully be able to find one of those you mentioned at a reasonable price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The 6N1 doesn't sound bad by any means, but if theres room for improvement then i'm definately game for trying a new tube.


----------



## ChiCosta

Hi!
 This is my first post and my english is not so good like that. Please be patiente with me. LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm waitting for my first headphone amp (this little guy).
 For now I'll use it with my AKG K81DJ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , and maybe give it a try with the Sleek Audio SA1 + W1 that I'm waitting for. What is the best way to connect this to my iPod Touch 64Gb/Classic 160Gb? I was thinking about SendStation PocketDock Line Out with mini-usb. Do you think is a good choice?
 In a near future, maybe I'll put it on my office connected to a pair of speakers. How can I do this with just a headphone out jack? and what kind of speakers do you recommend in this situation?
 Thanks in advance,


----------



## ear8dmg

The on off switch in mine is getting unreliable. Sometimes won't turn on again if I turn it off. Just unplugging and re-plugging for now.

 It's a physical problem with the switch, not electrical.


----------



## lecky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ChiCosta* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi!
 This is my first post and my english is not so good like that. Please be patiente with me. LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm waitting for my first headphone amp (this little guy).
 For now I'll use it with my AKG K81DJ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , and maybe give it a try with the Sleek Audio SA1 + W1 that I'm waitting for. What is the best way to connect this to my iPod Touch 64Gb/Classic 160Gb? I was thinking about SendStation PocketDock Line Out with mini-usb. Do you think is a good choice?
 In a near future, maybe I'll put it on my office connected to a pair of speakers. How can I do this with just a headphone out jack? and what kind of speakers do you recommend in this situation?
 Thanks in advance,_

 


 Your Pocketdock will be fine. 
 I highly doubt that you'll be able to drive speakers from this - for 'good bang for buck' cheap speaker amps the T amps are pretty nice.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ear8dmg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The on off switch in mine is getting unreliable. Sometimes won't turn on again if I turn it off. Just unplugging and re-plugging for now.

 It's a physical problem with the switch, not electrical._

 

The switch on mine looks like it might be similar to one of these DPDT locking:

PN41LENA02QE C&K Components Pushbutton Switches

 Just a guess from a quick look. You would want to measure the pin spacing and make sure that it is pin compatable (it switches the same pins).


----------



## MikeW

I got outbid by a doller on ebay and now there are no more for sale. They dissapeared


----------



## Zombie_X

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got outbid by a doller on ebay and now there are no more for sale. They dissapeared_

 

There are some for BUY IT NOW for $59.98, search for headphone amp. I have one of these as well and they are nice. I put it a nice 6H23 tube in mine. Love a lot man.


----------



## CPL593H

Has anyone tried a better power supply with the Bravo. Like Tangent Steps?


----------



## arcinthesky

Anyone tried the Bravo amp with an Alessandro MS1 or Grado headphones?
 I am curious what improvements this will present since the MS1 does so well unamped.


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arcinthesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone tried the Bravo amp with an Alessandro MS1 or Grado headphones?
 I am curious what improvements this will present since the MS1 does so well unamped._

 

My bravo is coming within a week fingers crossed, i will be trying them with grado rs2i's so i will let you now


----------



## s4one

I too am interested in this amp since it's price is a good deal. I will be using my 325is, hopefully they pair up well. I read that this amp is high gain? As far as I know, grados run on low right? Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## lecky

The gain is high on these amps. I don't have Grados but in terms of easy to drive cans there is not a noise floor or interference problem with portapros but with RE0 iems there is significant noise. Let us know how you get on with the Grados - I doubt there'll be a problem.

 Regarding power supply, I've read no mention of people upgrading - I'd be interested to hear it there's any significant improvement.


----------



## jcoops16

The extra tubes I ordered off ebay are starting to turn up now but still no bravo, cant wait for it to turn up now.


----------



## brendon

^^ Yeah I know the feeling the tube I ordered arrived last week but till now no sign of the amp (both were shipping on the same day. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The waiting is driving me crazy !


----------



## goebish

Mine came after about 1 month, as everything I order from China/HK (I live in France)


----------



## lecky

Yep, mine took quite a quite to come too.


----------



## igotyofire

impatient mofos....im sure the holiday is the busiest time for the post offices, id count on that delaying items a bit too...customs is probably working OT


----------



## Helmore

Is it possible to connect this amp to the headphone output of my Auzentech X-Fi Forte headphone jack? (I heard it's usually not recommended to connect 2 amps after one another)
 The jack on the Forte is quite powerful. I can't use the headphone jack in combination with my AD900 as it is too powerful, even with system volume at 5%. With this amp I might get some extra fun out of tube rolling, a nice volume control with power button and maybe a slight improvement in sound quality on my AD900. How durable is the power button and how low does it actually go in volume? The AD900 might be a bit too easy to drive.


----------



## shrisha

Could someone summarize which tubes is compatible and what is the best sounding so far. Thank you.


----------



## goebish

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shrisha* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could someone summarize which tubes is compatible and what is the best sounding so far. Thank you._

 

6DJ8 Tubes From Brent Jessee Recording , pretty good article on compatible tubes.


----------



## shrisha

Oh! Thank you!


----------



## brendon

^^^ Damm you ! I bought a Philips JAN 6922 tube after reading that article ! This cheap amp is getting very expensive for me.


----------



## brendon

Double post !


----------



## derek800

Does anyone know if the Indeed amp and the Bravo amp are about the same build/sound quality? I noticed the seller or the bravo amps on ebay has only been listing the amps at a buy it now price of $59.99 the past few days. When they were up for auction they would generally go for about $35-$45 plus shipping so I don't want to buy it for $59.99 if I can bid on the indeed amp and get it for around $40, as long as it's of similar quality.


----------



## lecky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know if the Indeed amp and the Bravo amp are about the same build/sound quality? I noticed the seller or the bravo amps on ebay has only been listing the amps at a buy it now price of $59.99 the past few days. When they were up for auction they would generally go for about $35-$45 plus shipping so I don't want to buy it for $59.99 if I can bid on the indeed amp and get it for around $40, as long as it's of similar quality._

 

With the original RCA connectors - the type that the Indeed still has but the Bravo has changed - there were concerns about quality and strength. The new Bravo RCA connectors are pretty solid things, this is a worthwhile difference. I can't speak for the rest of the changes, and nobody has compared the two side by side to find out how the component differences effect the products.


----------



## john57

Some of the Indeed tube amps sold on Ebay are buffer amps only with no volume control or a headphone jack.


----------



## Helmore

I've got a bunch of questions regarding this amp.

 1) Can you connect this amp to the headphone output of the Auzentech X-Fi Forte sound card? The headphone output on the X-Fi Forte is amped. I'm a complete noob when it comes to headphone amps, that's why I'm asking.

 2) How durable is the on/off switch? I think I'll be using that switch a lot and it thus has to be able to withstand the abuse it will get.

 3) Will it be able to drive my AD900 at reasonable low volume? I'm not sure how fine grained the volume knob is and I'm afraid I might not be able to adjust it to a comfortable listening volume.

 4) What kind of effect should I expect on sound quality? I am mainly interested in this amp because it seems like a nice introduction to tube amps and maybe even headphone amps in general.

 5) How sensitive is the recent build version to electro magnetic interference? I will probably not be able to place it in an ideal, low EMI environment.

 Thanks for the answers in advance, although I'm not sure if you guys will be able to answer all of them. I'll greatly appreciate any constructive advice though.


----------



## lecky

1. you could do it of course, but a line level source is always going to be preferable.

 2. The on/off switch doesn't feel very nice, it's the cheapest feeling bit of the amp, but it doesn't cause me much concern either. I don't think I've read any reports of trouble in that area.

 3. I have no problems getting the right volume level regardless of headphones used.

 4. Don't know about AD900s and amping...

 5. I can't hear any EM interference at all with any of my headphones, including for instance low ohm easy to drive things like portapros, but it's very apparent with my RE0 iems. So without trying with AD900s I couldn't say for sure, but I suspect you'll probably be OK.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Helmore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got a bunch of questions regarding this amp.

 1) Can you connect this amp to the headphone output of the Auzentech X-Fi Forte sound card? The headphone output on the X-Fi Forte is amped. I'm a complete noob when it comes to headphone amps, that's why I'm asking.

 2) How durable is the on/off switch? I think I'll be using that switch a lot and it thus has to be able to withstand the abuse it will get.

 3) Will it be able to drive my AD900 at reasonable low volume? I'm not sure how fine grained the volume knob is and I'm afraid I might not be able to adjust it to a comfortable listening volume.

 4) What kind of effect should I expect on sound quality? I am mainly interested in this amp because it seems like a nice introduction to tube amps and maybe even headphone amps in general.

 5) How sensitive is the recent build version to electro magnetic interference? I will probably not be able to place it in an ideal, low EMI environment.

 Thanks for the answers in advance, although I'm not sure if you guys will be able to answer all of them. I'll greatly appreciate any constructive advice though._

 


 I think in your previous post u already answered your own question #1 when you asked it. U stated u already have issues with volume levels..... & by design what an amplifier does i dont see why u think it would be any different plugging into the bravo unit, as this is only going to amplify the signal even more. There is no reason u cant use a 3.5mm male to male and go from soundcard to amp & is what im currently doing. 


 2) there was one person who complained about a switch...how are any of us suppose to know how durable it is......I can say i use mine daily for lil over a month or so at it appears fine.

 3) it drives my ath-50 with ease at low volumes so ur ad-900 should be fine.

 4) Stop being lazy and read what people are saying in the thread about the amps sound, there is even a review of it in another thread(search!) 

 5) mine sits next to various computer electronics/xbox, monitor without issue. only when device is plugged into a source that is turned off might u experience a buzz in my experience


----------



## brendon

^^ Come on dude, this is a 13 page long thread. Its rather confusing for someone who has not been a part of the thread to go through 13 pages to see whether his questions are all answered. 

 @Hellmore - For a review check this thread out - http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...oy-amp-457781/


----------



## Helmore

I've read this entire thread before posting as well as that review and pretty much anything I could find. Those were questions I still had after reading those threads. Could be that the answer is in those threads and I simply missed. 
 Some of those questions are pretty basic, but that's because there is not proper "Your guide to headphone amplifiers" sticky/thread on this forum where some of those questions might already be answered and I haven't looked on other forums yet. All the stickies on this forum section are about tubes/tube amps and warnings for certain products.


----------



## choka

I haven't been using this amp for may be two weeks or so because I built myself a staving student. Today when I tried to turn it on it wouldn't. Seems like the power supply is dead. Sigh.


----------



## brendon

^^ Damm ! Thats pretty quick for the power supply to fail ! My amp still hasn't reached me after 20 days. Probably stuck in customs or something.


----------



## goebish

Are you sure this is a power supply failure (tested with a voltmeter ?) ?
 Maybe this is a only a power button issue, as it seems to be weak.


----------



## choka

yes I have tested it. It is the power supply... I've had may be 10 hour max usage only.

 mail from overseas is doing really badly because of the holiday season. Give it some time.


----------



## Solitary1

Ok, I got mine in yesterday, and all is working fine. Surprisingly good sound. I have a question regarding this tube, I have 6922's and 6DJ8's for my X-Can, but they're much smaller than the tube in the Bravo. I thought the 6N11 was a replacement for the 6922/6DJ8???


----------



## goebish

Some 6922/6DJ8/ECC88 ... tubes are a bit smaller than the 6N11 but they are compatible and fit perfectly into the socket.


----------



## choka

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My amp still hasn't reached me after 20 days. Probably stuck in customs or something. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

For the amount they are charging for shipping, they should have shipped in a better way and packed it slightly better. Their current shipping method doesn't even have tracking. I remember having to go to the mail room every day praying it will arrive safely that day.

 Yes I am ranting because of the dead power supply.


----------



## Solitary1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goebish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some 6922/6DJ8/ECC88 ... tubes are a bit smaller than the 6N11 but they are compatible and fit perfectly into the socket._

 

Duhhh. You're right. I was looking at the size difference and saying no way they'd fit, they did.

 Didn't like the 6N23P, the Siemens & Halske 6DJ8 sounds pretty good though. Now for a Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 and a Tesla ECC88.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Solitary1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Duhhh. You're right. I was looking at the size difference and saying no way they'd fit, they did.

 Didn't like the 6N23P, the Siemens & Halske 6DJ8 sounds pretty good though. Now for a Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 and a Tesla ECC88._

 

I'm just guessing here, but that 6N23P might sound better if you leave it turned on for a couple of days while at school/work. Then again, maybe it will sound like electronic borscht...

 I'm betting that the Sylv Jan is a really clean sounding tube. The Tesla could the best, but that is dependent on whether it is one of the true older ones with a 37 factory code.

 They are all better than the 6N11, though. You might need to tweak the two pots to adjust the sound.


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I paid $42 for my Indeed plus shipping and I've been rolling "bargain" tubes into it. The best tube I have found is a Philips Miniwatt PCC88 with a "D" getter that I bought for $8 out of Bulgaria. I prefer to think of this little amp as a great value that has a mediocre Chinese 6n11 valve in it. The most expensive tube I have is a rebranded Siemens RCA that I paid $20 plus US shipping. While this tube sounds extremely fine, it is currently about 4th in the list. Granted that some of these tubes I have acquired are worth much more than I paid for them, but I can't believe that for less than $70 total, I have a headphone amp that sounds this incredible.

 While both the Indeed and the Bravo are very simple amps, the key component is the tube. Get a tube with a pedigree, tweak the pots as necessary and enjoy!_

 

I have picked up a few Mazda PCC88 tubes for very cheap. I understand these are made by the Philips owned Mazda factory? :/ 

 Anyway, the PCC88 have a higher voltage heater than ECC88 so I assume I'll have to tweak the pot?

 Can anyone tell me which pin is the voltage heater so I can measure it?


----------



## brendon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *choka* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For the amount they are charging for shipping, they should have shipped in a better way and packed it slightly better. Their current shipping method doesn't even have tracking. I remember having to go to the mail room every day praying it will arrive safely that day.

 Yes I am ranting because of the dead power supply. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Well I sent a message to Bravo and yes they have no tracking number. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They have said its down to holiday season rush and that I should wait for at least one more week.

 I have received one item 45 days after I ordered for it so I suppose I should wait for a little more time. But my eagerness to get this amp has kinda died out now after waiting for a month.


----------



## Solitary1

This may be going out on a limb, but this thing sounds better than the Little Dot I+ with the right tube.


----------



## tlau1125

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But my eagerness to get this amp has kinda died out now after waiting for a month. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Just to add another data point. Bravo indicated mine was shipped on Nov 29, so a bit over 3 weeks and it still hasn't arrived to Vancouver, Canada.


----------



## brendon

Oh so I have company ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hopefully it is as they have said - holiday rush and hopefully we both will get it in a few days. 

 Also I dont think that customs will clear the amp quickly seeing how the amp looks a lot like a bomb with its open design showing wires and stuff !


----------



## Mannevond

Mine just arrived! Was shipped November 26th, picked it up 20 minutes ago. The amp is very tiny but looks nice with the blue LED lighting the tube.

 I just connected my ipod to it via the LOD and had a quick listen with my Grundig magnetostats. I never heard those headphones sound so good, so this is promising. My DT770s will be back later tonight (wife borrowed them), and my AKG K701s should arrive some time between christmas and new year.

 I'll post my initial impressions in a few days, as I suspect the tube and possibly other components will need some burn-in before the sound signature is settled.

 It truly is the season to be jolly


----------



## brendon

^^ Oh its good to know you have received it already. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A nice Christmas present and it seems you are getting a better New Years present as well (K701) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Good to know you like it. Do let us know of your impressions after you have burned in the amp for 10 - 15 hours.


----------



## tlau1125

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tlau1125* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to add another data point. Bravo indicated mine was shipped on Nov 29, so a bit over 3 weeks and it still hasn't arrived to Vancouver, Canada._

 

Just received it today. It is smaller than I thought and quite cute. It is now connected to the tape out of my integrated amp (which does not have a headphone out) and the ms1i.

 Surprisingly I find the sound a bit edgy. Perhaps it needs some breaking-in?

 The second issue is with gain. Perhaps the ms1i is very efficient, or I tend to listen at low volume. By the time I turn the volume knob out of the "non-linear" area (that is, the area where the left-right balance changes) it is already too loud for me. Is there some way to reduce the gain so that I can use the more "linear" part of of the volume knob at my desired listening volume?

 Thanks!


----------



## Ttvetjanu

Wow, that's a cute little tube amp. If only we could get one running on batteries....


----------



## Solitary1

I got mine in a little over a week. Don't know what to tell you guys.


----------



## brendon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tlau1125* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just received it today. It is smaller than I thought and quite cute. It is now connected to the tape out of my integrated amp (which does not have a headphone out) and the ms1i.

 Surprisingly I find the sound a bit edgy. Perhaps it needs some breaking-in?

 The second issue is with gain. Perhaps the ms1i is very efficient, or I tend to listen at low volume. By the time I turn the volume knob out of the "non-linear" area (that is, the area where the left-right balance changes) it is already too loud for me. Is there some way to reduce the gain so that I can use the more "linear" part of of the volume knob at my desired listening volume?

 Thanks!_

 

Great now I am the only one left to get the darn amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But its surprising that it is sounding 'edgy'. From what I have read, this amp (on stock tubes) is rather mellow on treble leading to a smooth laid back sound. 

 Perhaps a 10 hour burn-in will smooth en out the sound so that you can enjoy the amp.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great now I am the only one left to get the darn amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But its surprising that it is sounding 'edgy'. From what I have read, this amp (on stock tubes) is rather mellow on treble leading to a smooth laid back sound. 

 Perhaps a 10 hour burn-in will smooth en out the sound so that you can enjoy the amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

it does get better with burn in, so far i found an 1970s amperex bugle boy 6dj8 that im happy with. and refuse to keep spending money in tubes as that seems like a just digging a ditch with all the options, i tried two different brands and think this old tube sounds alot better then the newer tube that i bought.


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great now I am the only one left to get the darn amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But its surprising that it is sounding 'edgy'. From what I have read, this amp (on stock tubes) is rather mellow on treble leading to a smooth laid back sound. 

 Perhaps a 10 hour burn-in will smooth en out the sound so that you can enjoy the amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm waiting. It was only posted on the 23rd of December so hopefully I won't have to wait too long.


----------



## shrisha

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great now I am the only one left to get the darn amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Don't worry, You are not alone. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My was shipped 25th November and still not here.


----------



## LeTiger

I ponied up and ordered one 2 days ago, I'll give it a month before I start worrying though.

 Hopefully it will mate nicely with a MF V-DAC and flac source out of my computer,

 Can wait, but hopefully it comes soon


----------



## tlau1125

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tlau1125* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The second issue is with gain. Perhaps the ms1i is very efficient, or I tend to listen at low volume. By the time I turn the volume knob out of the "non-linear" area (that is, the area where the left-right balance changes) it is already too loud for me._

 

So, I have an unused cassette deck at home (for the mp3 generation, this one records and plays cassette tapes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I put the tape deck between my integrated amp and the Bravo headphone amp and use the tape deck's record level control as an extra attenuator. Now I can turn Bravo's volume control beyond the "non-linear" section and still have comfortable volume. SQ will suffer slightly I guess but I'll take this over channel imbalance any day.

 Before today, I totally forgot about this unused tape deck and that it also has a headphone out! It'll be interesting to hear if there are differences between the tape deck headphone out and Bravo's.


----------



## 22B

I ordered one a week ago and started buying tubes. I am new to the world of tubes. This should be a good way to start enjoying experimenting with tubes. So far, I picked up a couple of Telefunken/Seimens PCC88 and an Amperex 6922 PQ Orange label. I have a MB Quart QP85 to be paired with this amp. I hope this setup will sound good. It would be great if everyone lists their experiences with the tubes they tried.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tlau1125* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, I have an unused cassette deck at home (for the mp3 generation, this one records and plays cassette tapes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I put the tape deck between my integrated amp and the Bravo headphone amp and use the tape deck's record level control as an extra attenuator. Now I can turn Bravo's volume control beyond the "non-linear" section and still have comfortable volume. SQ will suffer slightly I guess but I'll take this over channel imbalance any day.

 Before today, I totally forgot about this unused tape deck and that it also has a headphone out! It'll be interesting to hear if there are differences between the tape deck headphone out and Bravo's._

 

It sounds like you have a bad component. If one channel gets louder something is wrong. Are you kidding about putting an old tape deck in series?


----------



## tlau1125

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It sounds like you have a bad component. If one channel gets louder something is wrong. Are you kidding about putting an old tape deck in series? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

No kidding. When the volume knob is close to zero (7 o'clock), I can hear the balance shifting. This is quite common with inexpensive volume controls (maybe even some not so inexpensive ones, like the one on a British designed integrated amp that I used to own).

 If my headphone were less efficient, then I would not have needed to turn the volume so low. The useful range for me is very small (e.g. 7-8 o'clock) because I listen at relatively low volume. Therefore I don't think it's bad component. It is just that the output of the amp is very high for my headphone (an Alessandro ms1i).

 I guess that's why some headphone amps offer a high/low gain switch. Unfortunately this one doesn't.

 The extra volume control of the tape deck allows me to put the volume knob close to 9 o'clock.

 As for the differences in sound ... the Bravo gives a hiss, and the tape deck output in comparison is very quiet. The Bravo seems to sound a tiny bit more spacious and smoother at the top end, but I am not sure whether this difference is real or I just want to believe there is a difference


----------



## derek800

I finally pulled the trigger and bought one of these last night. This will be my first amp besides the Fiio E5. I've been following this thread for a while and decided this would be a good starter desktop amp, and with the good reviews I've been reading and the fairly low price it seemed like a no brainer. I can't wait to see how it sounds with my HD 238's, hopefully it won't take a month to get here.


----------



## CPL593H

tlau1125;6264387 said:
			
		

> No kidding. When the volume knob is close to zero (7 o'clock), I can hear the balance shifting. This is quite common with inexpensive volume controls (maybe even some not so inexpensive ones, like the one on a British designed integrated amp that I used to own).
> 
> If my headphone were less efficient, then I would not have needed to turn the volume so low. The useful range for me is very small (e.g. 7-8 o'clock) because I listen at relatively low volume. Therefore I don't think it's bad component. It is just that the output of the amp is very high for my headphone (an Alessandro ms1i).
> 
> ...


----------



## Robot Metal

I have no cash, only gift cards. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wanna get the Qinpu Q-2 amp, it should be comparable (or better) to the Bravo given you're tube-swapping, right? If I understand correctly, they're are both hybrid amps that uses a tube to color the sound while transistors actually amplify it, does this mean they're pretty much the same?

 Update: Disregard this post, I lurked and ended up with an alternative solution.


----------



## 22B

is anyone using a 5.1 dolby headphone decoder with this amp? I am planning on using a su-dh1 and this amp with my ps3.


----------



## brendon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Robot Metal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no cash, only gift cards. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wanna get the Qinpu Q-2 amp, it should be comparable (or better) to the Bravo given you're tube-swapping, right? If I understand correctly, they're are both hybrid amps that uses a tube to color the sound while transistors actually amplify it, does this mean they're pretty much the same?

 Update: Disregard this post, I lurked and ended up with an alternative solution._

 

You have a freaking Stax Lambada ! No wonder you have no cash !


----------



## shrisha

Just got my Funny looking one! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This boy is crazy powerful!
 Interesting thing actually. Volume knob at 9 o'clock optimal level for Denon D2000s and Beyers 990 equally. But on my other AMPs I need to add 20% of volume for Beyers to get same level where Denons are. D2000 - 25 Ohm and 990 - 250.
 Anyway. Sound so far quite good. Really nice with classical and acoustic music.
 Now I have to find some tubes to roll


----------



## shrisha

Just want to add. AMP is dead silent with no cellphones and WiFi gears around. Also, noticeably getting better with burn in.
 I got new improved version. It's came with 24V power supply. All connectors now very firmed and tight.


----------



## lozanoa11

Just ordered one. How long does it take to get normally? Im in the US.


----------



## Robot Metal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have a freaking Stax Lambada ! No wonder you have no cash ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Haha. I eventually did get a Bravo amp off eBay, though. I wouldn't have these headphones if it weren't for this site and its great community, actually.


----------



## derek800

Has anyone here had to pay any import duties or tax of any sort on the bravo amp? I just noticed in the description it says import duties and taxes are paid by the buyer. I just ordered mine not quite a week ago and was just curious.


----------



## brendon

The cost is about $50. I doubt any country will have any duties for such a small amount. Also most Chinese sellers undervalue the products so that duties are avoided.


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone here had to pay any import duties or tax of any sort on the bravo amp? I just noticed in the description it says import duties and taxes are paid by the buyer. I just ordered mine not quite a week ago and was just curious._

 

Mine was marked as 'GIFT' and was undervalued, no ransom note from customs.


----------



## igotyofire

Ok well ive been using this amp with my audio techinica phones which dont really require an amp necessarily, & i was wondering is this lil bravo tube amp sufficient for AKG701's or 600ohm Beyerdynamics, i guess what i want to know is what is the maximum ohms headphone i want to look at with this lil amp?


----------



## alexofc69

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lozanoa11* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just ordered one. How long does it take to get normally? Im in the US._

 

Mine left Hong Kong dec. 23. Im in California - so you would think that it would take too long. Havent seen it yet. Maybe next week due to the holidays.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok well ive been using this amp with my audio techinica phones which dont really require an amp necessarily, & i was wondering is this lil bravo tube amp sufficient for AKG701's or 600ohm Beyerdynamics, i guess what i want to know is what is the maximum ohms headphone i want to look at with this lil amp?_

 

Tube amps like this one usually have no problem driving high impedance (300-600 ohm) phones. They often do that better than solid state amps can.


----------



## Mannevond

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok well ive been using this amp with my audio techinica phones which dont really require an amp necessarily, & i was wondering is this lil bravo tube amp sufficient for AKG701's or 600ohm Beyerdynamics, i guess what i want to know is what is the maximum ohms headphone i want to look at with this lil amp?_

 

I'm using mine with AKG K701s, which still have under 100 hours on them. Too early to comment on the qualities of either, but I can turn the amp all the way up without any apparent/nasty distortion. This is the most powerful headphone amp I have at the moment, and it drives the AKGs to ear splitting levels. Even my 18V CMoy drive them quite well at comfortable listening volume, using AD8620 or AD843 (dual).

 What I can say for sure is that the AKG K701 seems to need a lot of power, and it is probably the best headphone I have ever heard


----------



## HiFlight

I just received my Bravo today. Shipping time was about 3 1/2 weeks from time of order, however the wait was certainly worthwhile, as this is really a surprisingly nice-sounding amp! 

 I was not really expecting this level of performance at such a modest price. The amp was well packed and arrived in perfect condition. Out of the box with the stock tube it sounded very good. I have a couple of other tubes that work well in the Bravo...6DJ8 and Philips Miniwatt. I much prefer the sound of the Miniwatt in this amp as it really provides a very dynamic and realistic SQ.

 There is certainly no shortage of power, as the Bravo effortlessly drives my AKG K340s to a far higher volume than I would ever need. It seems to be at its best when driving inefficient and/or high impedance cans. I believe that it would be overkill on some of my very sensitive IEMs. 

 I would certain recommend the Bravo for those looking for a budget hybrid amp that performs far above its price point!


----------



## weibby

Is the gain annoying?
 I've Auditioned the maverick, it sounds good but the high gain kinda make the highs harsh and unnatural.


----------



## guyben

Just got mine, excellent SQ with a Sylvania 6dj8 ($10 on ebay).
 As a newbie, I have a question though..aside from the blue led light glowing when amp is on, shouldn't there also be a yellow/orange light from the tube itself?

 Thanks!


----------



## jageur272

Because this is a low-voltage tube hybrid, the heater won't be getting hot enough to have the tubes actually "glow". You may have a little bit of light depending on the tube, but nothing spectacular. There are lots of manufacturers who put LED's into these types of tubes to mimic tube glow, however. It's mainly an aesthetic thing.


----------



## HiFlight

While the Bravo obviously is a high-gain amp, I have not noticed any adverse effect on the highs as a result of the gain. Perhaps this is more a result of the OEM tube than gain. I am using a Philips Miniwatt tube with very good results. I have not made any changes using the trimmer pots yet. 


 I just turn down the volume to whatever is required for the phones I am using, and the highs sound quite natural.


----------



## weibby

cool.
 Looks like I can try to play around with these.

 Edit: they're not listed anymore?
 And it seems indeed is out for blood - $79usd...


----------



## derek800

I've read a few people saying they've used a philips miniwatt tube in this amp. I saw one listed for $10 on eBay, the model number was ecf80, will this one work? Or I saw several 6922 tubes for around the same price as well, would those work better? This amp is on it's way to me and I would like to order a different tube to try when I get it, but this is my first tube amp so I'm new to this.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jageur272* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because this is a low-voltage tube hybrid, the heater won't be getting hot enough to have the tubes actually "glow". You may have a little bit of light depending on the tube, but nothing spectacular. There are lots of manufacturers who put LED's into these types of tubes to mimic tube glow, however. It's mainly an aesthetic thing._

 

The heater is just as hot as any other circuit or it wouldn't work. The plate voltage is lower than any normal operating range for this tube which is about 90 volts or above, this is at 17. These tubes just don't glow much under any circumstances.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've read a few people saying they've used a philips miniwatt tube in this amp. I saw one listed for $10 on eBay, the model number was ecf80, will this one work? Or I saw several 6922 tubes for around the same price as well, would those work better? This amp is on it's way to me and I would like to order a different tube to try when I get it, but this is my first tube amp so I'm new to this._

 

You need to get a tube that is a 6DJ8 direct replacement. These include 6DJ8, 6922, 7308, ECC88, E88CC and others like the 6N11 that it comes with. The 6922 and 7308 were premium tubes but that doesn't mean they sound better in your amp. The ECC88 tubes are a European designation. 

 Phillips Miniwatt is a brand of tube not a type. There were a huge number of brands and many manufacturers rebranded. So you could get a Phillips made tube labeled RCA for example. They changed over time so figuring out what is what is not simple.


 So what do you do?
 If you want to start cheap but decent and available there are a bunch of Sylvania 6DJ8, 6922 and 7308's with green lettering that are decent. Many are labeled Sylvania JAN 6922 and come in a white box with black lettering. The JAN stands for Joint Army Navy and was just stuff made for the military. (see the tubes in my Avatar).

 Try to buy a tube that comes in the original box if you can.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've read a few people saying they've used a philips miniwatt tube in this amp. I saw one listed for $10 on eBay, the model number was ecf80, will this one work? Or I saw several 6922 tubes for around the same price as well, would those work better? This amp is on it's way to me and I would like to order a different tube to try when I get it, but this is my first tube amp so I'm new to this._

 

ECF80 is a no go. Any 6dj8 or equivalent will work. European designation for a 6dj8 is ECC88 or 5358 Brit mil spec. A 6922 (E88CC or 2492 for Brit mil spec) is an "improved" 6dj8 with typically tighter tolerances and usually gold pins. A 7dj8 or PCC88 should work. I have a PCC88 miniwatt that sounds like heaven in my Indeed. Search for these *types* first and then select the brand. A tube with JAN on it is a US mil spec tube... look for 6922 or 7308 in these.

 There are some great tube sites out there. Just Google 6dj8 or one of the other designations and start reading.

 Sorry about double posting the same info as CPL593H...


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ECF80 is a no go. Any 6dj8 or equivalent will work. European designation for a 6dj8 is ECC88 or 5358 Brit mil spec. A 6922 (E88CC or 2492 for Brit mil spec) is an "improved" 6dj8 with typically tighter tolerances and usually gold pins. A 7dj8 or PCC88 should work. I have a PCC88 miniwatt that sounds like heaven in my Indeed. Search for these *types* first and then select the brand. A tube with JAN on it is a US mil spec tube... look for 6922 or 7308 in these.

 There are some great tube sites out there. Just Google 6dj8 or one of the other designations and start reading.

 Sorry about double posting the same info as CPL593H..._

 

Hey you added some stuff that I've wondered about, in particular the 7DJ8, I'm going to try one one of those.


----------



## lozanoa11

Paid for mine on the 30th and just got an email saying it was shipped and should be here in 7-14 days. So we will see. Any one use this with grados?


----------



## HiFlight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *weibby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cool.
 Looks like I can try to play around with these.

 Edit: they're not listed anymore?
 And it seems indeed is out for blood - $79usd..._

 

Henry, the Ebay seller of the Bravo said that the amp would be available again when they found a suitable replacement tube, as the original NOS tube that was used is no longer available. He said it should likely be within a couple of weeks.


----------



## igor0203

Do all 6922/E88CC/ECC88 tubes fit in this amp? As I bought Russian 6N1P-EV tube and all I hear is very weak sound with lots of hiss. I tried to turn pots in both ways but with no success.


----------



## Judge Buff

If I'm not mistaken, that valve requires double the heater current of a 6dj8 and is not directly interchangeable. There is a wiki article about this. Sorry...


----------



## gurusan

From what I've read the russian ones don't sound the best anyway....


----------



## goebish

I tried 6N1P-EV and 6N1P-VI but couldn't get any sound out of them even after modding the pots.
 That's strange because these tubes should work with a 5.7-7V filament voltage, and the bravo is set at 6.3V, maybe it can't supply the necessary current (600mA ±50).


----------



## weibby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiFlight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Henry, the Ebay seller of the Bravo said that the amp would be available again when they found a suitable replacement tube, as the original NOS tube that was used is no longer available. He said it should likely be within a couple of weeks._

 

Thanks!
 Wow you guys must have bought him out. ha


----------



## LeTiger

Well, cool deal,

 Amp came today, very smart looking, very well packaged.

 So far, still burning it in, will hold out thoughts until it's had about 100 hours on it. (13 so far)

 Have a couple initial woes though,

 1. My model seems to be one of the one's with the funky power cord connection, hissing and restarting if jolted (not really an issue because it mainly sits still)
 2. No "low" setting for input, volume knob pretty much inadequate for phones I'm using, I am using this as a desktop computer amp, hooked in loop, SPDIF out of Soundcard, into MF V-DAC, RCA into Bravo Amp, the gain is HUGE. Have to set system volume at 4%, player volume (foobar) at about -40db, and then the amp at about 7:30 to have a comfortable volume
 3. Noticeable hiss, got quieter when I switched out stock tube for JAN 6DJ8, I like to listen to music quietly, is this just the characteristic "tube" hiss? or am I missing something. (Also played with the 2 yellow pots (trim pots?) a bit, there was noticeably more signal interference in the left channel, and moving the right pot about 10 degrees clockwise seemed to solve the hissing entirely, however when I put the cover back on, the hissing (now equalized) resumed at a base level on both channels, still audible on the volume I like to listen at.

 Initially, I think that my soundcard (X-Fi Xtreme Gamer) actually did a pretty good job at driving my SRH840's (they did it without hiss too!), and compared to the combo I'm running right now, kind of wondering how much of a difference this amp actually makes... (be honest, what do you folks think?)

 Any thoughts on how to go about these issues?

 (Some of you may be wondering why the heck I am using a $300 DAC and a $40 amp, let me assure you that far from ignorance, my plan was to start with this amp as a reference, and then move to a WA6 later this year when funds are available, my reasoning being that a good DAC will always be useful, and I would rather sink investment in a good $300 level DAC, rather than a lo/midrange tube amp in the $300 level)

 I'll definitely have fun with this one, just a bit concerned about the issues listed above, thoughts welcome.


----------



## igor0203

I've got Mullard PCC88 and it sounds screw**g awesome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Much much better than stock tube.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeTiger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, cool deal,

 Amp came today, very smart looking, very well packaged.

 So far, still burning it in, will hold out thoughts until it's had about 100 hours on it. (13 so far)

 Have a couple initial woes though,

 1. My model seems to be one of the one's with the funky power cord connection, hissing and restarting if jolted (not really an issue because it mainly sits still)
 2. No "low" setting for input, volume knob pretty much inadequate for phones I'm using, I am using this as a desktop computer amp, hooked in loop, SPDIF out of Soundcard, into MF V-DAC, RCA into Bravo Amp, the gain is HUGE. Have to set system volume at 4%, player volume (foobar) at about -40db, and then the amp at about 7:30 to have a comfortable volume
 3. Noticeable hiss, got quieter when I switched out stock tube for JAN 6DJ8, I like to listen to music quietly, is this just the characteristic "tube" hiss? or am I missing something. (Also played with the 2 yellow pots (trim pots?) a bit, there was noticeably more signal interference in the left channel, and moving the right pot about 10 degrees clockwise seemed to solve the hissing entirely, however when I put the cover back on, the hissing (now equalized) resumed at a base level on both channels, still audible on the volume I like to listen at.

 Initially, I think that my soundcard (X-Fi Xtreme Gamer) actually did a pretty good job at driving my SRH840's (they did it without hiss too!), and compared to the combo I'm running right now, kind of wondering how much of a difference this amp actually makes... (be honest, what do you folks think?)

 Any thoughts on how to go about these issues?

 (Some of you may be wondering why the heck I am using a $300 DAC and a $40 amp, let me assure you that far from ignorance, my plan was to start with this amp as a reference, and then move to a WA6 later this year when funds are available, my reasoning being that a good DAC will always be useful, and I would rather sink investment in a good $300 level DAC, rather than a lo/midrange tube amp in the $300 level)

 I'll definitely have fun with this one, just a bit concerned about the issues listed above, thoughts welcome._

 

I do not have any hiss with the Bravo with any of the 6 tube types I've tried. The pots set the bias on the tube right and left channels. You just changed that bias on one channel. There's something wrong with your amp I'd see if you can get a replacement.


----------



## FraGGleR

I have been loving this little guy for well over a month now (I think the stock tube sounds great, but without reference to any other tube only compared to my Total Bithead). My power toggle stopped working (well it takes like 10 tries to get it to catch), but Henry responded quickly and shipped a replacement to me immediately (I am replacing it myself). Seems like a good guy.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FraGGleR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have been loving this little guy for well over a month now (I think the stock tube sounds great, but without reference to any other tube only compared to my Total Bithead). My power toggle stopped working (well it takes like 10 tries to get it to catch), but Henry responded quickly and shipped a replacement to me immediately (I am replacing it myself). Seems like a good guy._

 

He definitely doesn't want this community to turn on him for lack of support... 

 If you like the stock tube that much, a 6922 will probably light-up your eyes. Give me a couple more days...


----------



## alexofc69

Has anyone tried Electro-Harmonix 6922 EH ? I have an a brand new one that im going to try when my Bravo gets here. Im probably going to get a Jan Phillips 6922 as well.


----------



## LionPlushie

i can't seem to order one from his ebay account anymore?


----------



## budfox4life

got mine today after placing the order based on this thread....

 seems I am suffering from the same "hiss" problem as LeTiger. I can also hear an almost constant "blip-blip,blip" reminiscent of a record that has gone past its last song.

 being that this is my first tube amp, I am curious to find out if these are common tube characteristics (if so, I will need a solid state amp) or if I just got a defective amp


----------



## malldian

Looking to buy one of these used.. need it fairly soon. Shoot me a PM if you are selling it.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *budfox4life* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_got mine today after placing the order based on this thread....

 seems I am suffering from the same "hiss" problem as LeTiger. I can also hear an almost constant "blip-blip,blip" reminiscent of a record that has gone past its last song.

 being that this is my first tube amp, I am curious to find out if these are common tube characteristics (if so, I will need a solid state amp) or if I just got a defective amp_

 

If you are using a computer for source it may be noise from devices like hard drives.


----------



## boomy3555

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igor0203* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do all 6922/E88CC/ECC88 tubes fit in this amp? As I bought Russian 6N1P-EV tube and all I hear is very weak sound with lots of hiss. I tried to turn pots in both ways but with no success._

 

 I bought a bunch of Russian 6N1P-EB's off of eBay as the listing stated that they were compatible.. they are Definately NOT Compatable. No Sound out of any of them.


----------



## 22B

i received my amp last night. Here are some initial observations. 

 Tried the stock tube and did not like the harshness. Rolled in an Amperex 6922 PQ orange label and the sound is so much sweeter. I have some telefunken PCC88s, a Matsu****a/Mullard PCC88, and another Amperex 6922 PQ ready to roll. I'm spending more on tubes than the cost of the amp. Crazy.

 Testing this with my MB Quart PQ85. I'll report back after burning in the amperex. So far I am happy. I just hear a low hum when I hook this up to my laptop and turn up the volume. My iphone presents no hum at all.


----------



## budfox4life

Sent an email to Henry (ebay seller) regarding the blips I was hearing. He got back to me this afternoon and it turned out to be electromagnetic interference from the wireless router I have on the desk...

 Turns out the either my router is very strong or this amp is very, very sensitive as the only way I can lost the blips is by going two rooms over.

 Is there any way I can "shield" the amp so I can use it on the desk (was hoping to use this with my pc, where I do most of my listening) or at least in the same room?

 ... if not, a question for future refrence - are all tube amps sensitive to electromagnetic interference on this level? (will I ever be able to use a tube amp on my desk with my pc?)


----------



## boomy3555

Add a wireless dongle to your desktop and the you can put the router somewhere else in the house that you have a cable or DSL hook-up depending on which you have.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i received my amp last night. Here are some initial observations. 

 Tried the stock tube and did not like the harshness. Rolled in an Amperex 6922 PQ orange label and the sound is so much sweeter. I have some telefunken PCC88s, a Matsu****a/Mullard PCC88, and another Amperex 6922 PQ ready to roll. I'm spending more on tubes than the cost of the amp. Crazy._

 

Not crazy at all, 22B... Even if you don't like their sound, they are probably considered antiques already, or will be soon. They are living history.

 I have 16, from an E88CC/01 (pd $18 inc shipping) to a Siemens rebranded RCA 6922 to Mullard A Frames. If it isn't in the amp, it's on display in my curio cabinet in my study. I have 4 more valves in route.

 It's not crazy... obsessive maybe, but definitely not crazy. Definitely. lol


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *budfox4life* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sent an email to Henry (ebay seller) regarding the blips I was hearing. He got back to me this afternoon and it turned out to be electromagnetic interference from the wireless router I have on the desk...

 Turns out the either my router is very strong or this amp is very, very sensitive as the only way I can lost the blips is by going two rooms over.

 Is there any way I can "shield" the amp so I can use it on the desk (was hoping to use this with my pc, where I do most of my listening) or at least in the same room?

 ... if not, a question for future refrence - are all tube amps sensitive to electromagnetic interference on this level? (will I ever be able to use a tube amp on my desk with my pc?)_

 

deleted


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *budfox4life* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sent an email to Henry (ebay seller) regarding the blips I was hearing. He got back to me this afternoon and it turned out to be electromagnetic interference from the wireless router I have on the desk...

 Turns out the either my router is very strong or this amp is very, very sensitive as the only way I can lost the blips is by going two rooms over.

 Is there any way I can "shield" the amp so I can use it on the desk (was hoping to use this with my pc, where I do most of my listening) or at least in the same room?

 ... if not, a question for future refrence - are all tube amps sensitive to electromagnetic interference on this level? (will I ever be able to use a tube amp on my desk with my pc?)_

 

get an rf shield for the tube - they are available. They came with my bottlehead preamp that uses the same tube


----------



## budfox4life

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_get an rf shield for the tube - they are available. They came with my bottlehead preamp that uses the same tube_

 

sorry for the noob question but where might I find a rf shield? Any specific retailer I should look out for/avoid?

 Thanks for the response


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *budfox4life* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry for the noob question but where might I find a rf shield? Any specific retailer I should look out for/avoid?

 Thanks for the response
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Short Shield for 9 pin tube sockets 

 Here's one. Normally you use a tube socket that this thing hooks on to so it won't fall off but I think you could just put it over the tube. Its just a piece of aluminum tubing, you could use heavy aluminum foil and some tape and make a tube to try it out.


----------



## 22B

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not crazy at all, 22B... Even if you don't like their sound, they are probably considered antiques already, or will be soon. They are living history.

 I have 16, from an E88CC/01 (pd $18 inc shipping) to a Siemens rebranded RCA 6922 to Mullard A Frames. If it isn't in the amp, it's on display in my curio cabinet in my study. I have 4 more valves in route.

 It's not crazy... obsessive maybe, but definitely not crazy. Definitely. lol_

 

I didn't think about displaying these. That's a good idea. I have 6 kinds right now to play with. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I bought a tube online and could not believe what actually came in the mail yesterday. It sounds amazing and makes the other tubes I have sound confined and limiting. It is supposed to be one of the best 6dj8 style tube ever made. Can anyone guess what I received? Happy camper here


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is supposed to be one of the best 6dj8 style tube ever made. Can anyone guess what I received?_

 

Probably a JAN-Sylvania 7308? Could be also a JJ E88CC Gold?


----------



## goebish

CCa Telefunken or Siemens ?


----------



## shrisha

Siemens 6922?


----------



## ScarlettD

Siemens it is


----------



## brendon

Got my tube amp today (finally !!!) and its not working... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Connected the power to the mains, added the tube, connected my mp3 player via RCA and to the 3.5mm input (using a RCA to 3.5mm jack and using two different cables that are tested to work on other equipment) and I switched the amp to ON (the tube LED starts to glow and the other LEDs switch on) but no sound comes out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried my PC, mp3 player as sources and tried two different headphones but no sound comes out. I tried changing the tube to see if that worked but that too does not work. 

 I mailed Henry but I was wondering if I am making some stupid mistake.


----------



## goebish

I noticed that a certain "warm up time" was necessary with certain tubes (my RFT ECC88 require at least 1 minute) before it output sound, but I suppose you're trying with the 6N11 tube and that you've aleady tried to wait a little time.
 Maybe a bad unit, bah, ****s happens !
 I'm pretty sure that Henry will help you


----------



## 22B

Great guesses guys. I took a pic of this tube in the amp. It's a late 50s Amperex 6922 PQ pinched waist D getter with gold pins. I wonder how this compares to a CCa. I read that the CCa and pinched waist Amperex are the best in this tube type. I can't wait until the amp and tube is burned in. I only have about 30 hours on it so far. My last tube to test is a 6dj8 PQ A frame which should sound good as well.


----------



## brendon

Hey it started working all of a sudden ! 

 The JAN Philips 6222 tube sounds so clear and lush its amazing ! If I had to spend $150 for this kind of sound I would gladly done so. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For those on the Sylvana 6DJ8, try the Philips JAN 6222, IMHO its a much more transparent tube and the low end has a bit more punch.


----------



## goebish

Happy to hear that, brendon


----------



## brendon

^^ Yeah I am too ! I was waiting for over 1 month for this amp. I ended up getting 2 tubes for this amp also. And after all that waiting when I found out that the amp did not work I was extremely disappointed. 

 I am now hastily writing another message to Henry so that he knows that the amp has started working and I am very happy with the sound.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great guesses guys. I took a pic of this tube in the amp. It's a late 50s Amperex 6922 PQ pinched waist D getter with gold pins. I wonder how this compares to a CCa. I read that the CCa and pinched waist Amperex are the best in this tube type. I can't wait until the amp and tube is burned in. I only have about 30 hours on it so far. My last tube to test is a 6dj8 PQ A frame which should sound good as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The A Frames I have are the best sounding tubes so far. Though my D getter PCC88 is in the mix, too. I don't know if anything would sound better than a pinched-waist, though. That tube type is just legendary... Epic!


----------



## alexofc69

Any experience with Electro Harmonix 6922 out there?? I also have a Phillips JAN 6922 on its way. Of course the amps not here yet!! But, I will try both of these against the stock tube.


----------



## igotyofire

My old bugle boy makes the amp put out alot more heat then when using the other tubes, it also seems to take longer to heat up. i wonder if the new tubes are just more efficient, heh.


----------



## igotyofire

Also by the way my Amp started shorting out, happened to me twice, i think its the power cable/unit itself is the DC power supply universal with anything i can pick up here in the states since i know other users reported issues with it as well


----------



## JazzVinyl

Well Folks...

 My Bravo Audio tube hybrid arrives today after being in transit for 15 days (excluding weekends and holidays) and guess what?

 It makes no sound and just pulses. The blue tube LED and a red LED just pulse like the heart of Frankenstein waking up!!

 What!! Power supply problem? I don't have another 24V 1 Amp supply to try it with...

 I was REALLY ready to hear this puppy!!


----------



## igotyofire

such terrible news for a first post


----------



## 22B

Sorry to hear about the problems. I hope Henry makes things right for you guys.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Yeah...I have had a look and the Power Supply is okay. It must be one of the 2N3906's are bad. 

 Hoping for a replacement from Henry. Shot him an email, maybe I will get a reply tomorrow. I too had already bought some nice 6922's that I had sitting here, ready to try out.


----------



## brendon

Yes the power supply is definitely a bit iffy. One end of mine is a bit loose and I will have to take care not to strain it as it will in all probability snap if I pull it with some force. But Henry is a really nice person to deal with and I have no doubt you will be satisfied with the amp in the end. I am really enjoying mine right now.


----------



## HiFlight

About the best upgrade you can make for the Bravo is to replace the cheap 1A switching power supply with a better quality 2-2.5A switcher or regulated supply. We did an A-B test with mine a recent mini-meet and the better quality 2A supply sounded much better. 

 Using a larger power supply will not harm the amp.


----------



## CPL593H

Got a pair of AKG K702s to replace the mid-fi Sennheiser 448s. The 702s with the Bravo are well matched, a very musical combination. The 702s are a bit etched on the high frequency but that is supposed to diminish with several hundred hours. Anyway this change just swamped all the tube rolling which I'll give up on for a while till the AKG's break in. I'm hearing detail that I did not know existed.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiFlight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About the best upgrade you can make for the Bravo is to replace the cheap 1A switching power supply with a better quality 2-2.5A switcher or regulated supply. We did an A-B test with mine a recent mini-meet and the better quality 2A supply sounded much better. 

 Using a larger power supply will not harm the amp._

 

so ur saying somthing like this is what will work, is that the correct size 5.5mm?

12 Volt DC - 2.5 Amp Power Supply


----------



## goebish

No, 24V are required.


----------



## Mannevond

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got a pair of AKG K702s to replace the mid-fi Sennheiser 448s. The 702s with the Bravo are well matched, a very musical combination. The 702s are a bit etched on the high frequency but that is supposed to diminish with several hundred hours. Anyway this change just swamped all the tube rolling which I'll give up on for a while till the AKG's break in. I'm hearing detail that I did not know existed._

 

I second this. I have K701 which is equivalent to K702, just white and no detachable cable. Mine have played for 150 hours or so now, with me "peeking" in on the sound every now and then. The harsh trebles are going away and the bass is starting to become more defined.

 All in all a great combo if one has the patience to wait for the phones to open up. I have a pair of Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 from the 60s (NOS) on the way here, can't wait to hear them. Also waiting for two Tesla goldpins (don't remember the exact model, but supposed to be 6DJ8 equivalents) and considering getting several other tubes.


----------



## LeTiger

Henry is a truly great fellow, got back to me swiftly and is sending a replacement board for the amp (didn't even require me to ship the current one back to him! - said I can send it back when the replacement arrives)

 I feel sorry for the fellow right now, that with issues seeming to crop up, but I have faith that the replacement (and possibly a slightly sturdier power supply) will fix the issue yet. He is really nice, and I am definitely glad I got the amp from him (instead of some of the other "bravo" amp sellers popping up on Fleabay)


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you are using a computer for source it may be noise from devices like hard drives._

 

- Hard drives??? Really?......

 Frankly that surprises me, perhaps if you could explain that logic a bit more?

 I made sure to test the amp about 30 feet away from the wi-fi router (through a floor and 2 walls to boot, plus I am running wired with no wi-fi capabilities), cell phone turned off, and I have an LCD (crt's apparently known to create a similar issue), was still having the hum/hiss. Really curious as to how you think HDD's would affect interference ( I have a desktop, so the amp was about 3 physical feet from the computer enclosure)

 Anyway, Henry was good enough to send me another board, so hopefully a solution will pan out.


----------



## goebish

I had a lot of noise/hiss/interferences when used directly on my computer (X-Fi Fatal1ty headphone out), now that I use it with an iBasso D10 DAC (optical) the sound is just wonderfull.


----------



## nsx_23

Anyone got a link to an auction for one? I'm having trouble finding one on ebay.


----------



## goebish

I think Henry said he need to find another 6N11 tubes lot, as he sold all the stock he had for now.
 Shouldn't be too long, keep looking on ebay.

 edit: looks like he's using russian EH6922 (electro harmonix) instead of chinese 6N11 now: Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier preamp audio amp - eBay (item 260534776993 end time Feb-06-10 23:05:00 PST), but it's overpriced.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeTiger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Henry is a truly great fellow, got back to me swiftly and is sending a replacement board for the amp (didn't even require me to ship the current one back to him! - said I can send it back when the replacement arrives)._

 

This sounds really good. I hope he is willing to do this for me as well. If he does, I will feel a lot better about my purchase.

 Cheers...


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goebish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, 24V are required._

 

wow those are hard to find!


----------



## boomy3555

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goebish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think Henry said he need to find another 6N11 tubes lot, as he sold all the stock he had for now.
 Shouldn't be too long, keep looking on ebay.

 edit: looks like he's using russian EH6922 (electro harmonix) instead of chinese 6N11 now: Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier preamp audio amp - eBay (item 260534776993 end time Feb-06-10 23:05:00 PST), but it's overpriced._

 



 I put Electro Harmonix in my Indeeds and they worked in some and not in others (I have Indeeds) I strongly believe that these guys are sensitive to even slight tube differences and require some ajdustment when switching tubes.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I put Electro Harmonix in my Indeeds and they worked in some and not in others (I have Indeeds) I strongly believe that these guys are sensitive to even slight tube differences and require some ajdustment when switching tubes._

 

X2 but I have really only *needed* to tweak the pots twice in all of the tube rolling I've done. I had to do it when I removed the crappy 6N11 stock tube and put in a PCC. When I switched to 6dj8s/6922s, I did a little tweaking to make the sound presentation "balance-out" in the phones. I couldn't tell you what pot did what though... The pots are really sensitive and they aren't precise at all.

 I think that the older valves are more standardized and were manufactured to tighter tolerances than the Russian and Chinese tubes are now. There's just a bunch of retrotechno junk out there. I also wouldn't buy a JJ/Tesla on a dare, from what I'm reading. Those rebranded remakes are expensive junk, too.


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goebish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_edit: looks like he's using russian EH6922 (electro harmonix) instead of chinese 6N11 now: Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier preamp audio amp - eBay (item 260534776993 end time Feb-06-10 23:05:00 PST), but it's overpriced._

 

WOW. I concure that is steap, considering most of us got it for 40-50 shipped.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WOW. I concure that is steap, considering most of us got it for 40-50 shipped._

 

I would bet that he's paying retail for the EH6922s. They are definitely overpriced tubes.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeTiger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Henry is a truly great fellow, got back to me swiftly and is sending a replacement board for the amp (didn't even require me to ship the current one back to him! - said I can send it back when the replacement arrives)

 I feel sorry for the fellow right now, that with issues seeming to crop up, but I have faith that the replacement (and possibly a slightly sturdier power supply) will fix the issue yet. He is really nice, and I am definitely glad I got the amp from him (instead of some of the other "bravo" amp sellers popping up on Fleabay)




 - Hard drives??? Really?......

 Frankly that surprises me, perhaps if you could explain that logic a bit more?

 I made sure to test the amp about 30 feet away from the wi-fi router (through a floor and 2 walls to boot, plus I am running wired with no wi-fi capabilities), cell phone turned off, and I have an LCD (crt's apparently known to create a similar issue), was still having the hum/hiss. Really curious as to how you think HDD's would affect interference ( I have a desktop, so the amp was about 3 physical feet from the computer enclosure)

 Anyway, Henry was good enough to send me another board, so hopefully a solution will pan out._

 

Here's the explanation for what I'm quite certain is hard disk noise. I'm using a Xonar DX sound card with back panel and front panel output. I didn't pay any attention to the routing of the wire for the front panel, just used it as it came with the computer case.

 So I hooked the Bravo amp to the front panel and heard very audible noise that seemed to be correlated with hard drive operations. (the front panel wire runs through the HD bay). The sound went away but I could get it to come back by doing something like opening Photoshop. So I hooked the amp up to the back panel jack and zero noise. I didn't worry about it after that I guess I could shield or reroute the wire. I suppose it could be associated with something else in the case, any ideas?


----------



## JazzVinyl

I heard from "Henry" - he says:

 "Hello ebayuser, Don't worry, I will test and send you a new one. But I am sorry you may wait a few more days for its shipping time. Sorry again.
 Best regards, Hans"


 So...sounds like I will have a working unit in another month or two.

 Cheers...


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2 but I have really only *needed* to tweak the pots twice in all of the tube rolling I've done. I had to do it when I removed the crappy 6N11 stock tube and put in a PCC. When I switched to 6dj8s/6922s, I did a little tweaking to make the sound presentation "balance-out" in the phones. I couldn't tell you what pot did what though... The pots are really sensitive and they aren't precise at all.

 I think that the older valves are more standardized and were manufactured to tighter tolerances than the Russian and Chinese tubes are now. There's just a bunch of retrotechno junk out there. I also wouldn't buy a JJ/Tesla on a dare, from what I'm reading. Those rebranded remakes are expensive junk, too._

 

The pots should do the same thing on the left and right channel. They should set the bias on the cathode of the 6dj8 on pins 3 and 8.


----------



## boomy3555

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's the explanation for what I'm quite certain is hard disk noise. I'm using a Xonar DX sound card with back panel and front panel output. I didn't pay any attention to the routing of the wire for the front panel, just used it as it came with the computer case.

 So I hooked the Bravo amp to the front panel and heard very audible noise that seemed to be correlated with hard drive operations. (the front panel wire runs through the HD bay). The sound went away but I could get it to come back by doing something like opening Photoshop. So I hooked the amp up to the back panel jack and zero noise. I didn't worry about it after that I guess I could shield or reroute the wire. I suppose it could be associated with something else in the case, any ideas?_

 


 I sometimes gets noise interferrence from the wireless. If I turn off the wireless, it goes away and it is very dependant upon positioning of gear. also most often with tubes vs SS


----------



## gurusan

Has anyone found a decent replacement switch for this?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The pots should do the same thing on the left and right channel. They should set the bias on the cathode of the 6dj8 on pins 3 and 8._

 

I guess that's why they appear to be in the same position, now.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess that's why they appear to be in the same position, now._

 

That's good. When I take the amp apart to replace the coupling caps and the flaky power jack I'll measure the bias voltage on the stock tube and a couple 6DJ8s, ones that work good an a couple that are marginal. I think the marginal ones might work with a little more bias.


----------



## 22B

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiFlight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About the best upgrade you can make for the Bravo is to replace the cheap 1A switching power supply with a better quality 2-2.5A switcher or regulated supply. We did an A-B test with mine a recent mini-meet and the better quality 2A supply sounded much better. 

 Using a larger power supply will not harm the amp._

 

How does a larger power supply improve the sound in this amp? Does the 1A power supply limit the sound or power? I did notice that the indeed amp comes with a 2A unit. I will buy a larger power supply if the improvement is significant. Do you guys know the dimensions for the round power supply connector? 





 I am about 30 hours on the Bravo and the pinched waist amperex now and the sound is improving. I was listening to Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon and she sounds amazing.


----------



## nsx_23

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WOW. I concure that is steap, considering most of us got it for 40-50 shipped._

 

I might keep an eye out then. $40-$50 shipped for a small tube amp is tempting.


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How does a larger power supply improve the sound in this amp? Does the 1A power supply limit the sound or power? I did notice that the indeed amp comes with a 2A unit. I will buy a larger power supply if the improvement is significant. Do you guys know the dimensions for the round power supply connector? 

 I am about 30 hours on the Bravo and the pinched waist amperex now and the sound is improving. I was listening to Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon and she sounds amazing._

 

im after one in hopes of finding somthing that doesn't short out on me, heh. It seems their might be some reliability issues with this one. Altho mine still works...should be no reason for intermittent behavior


----------



## LeTiger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's the explanation for what I'm quite certain is hard disk noise. I'm using a Xonar DX sound card with back panel and front panel output. I didn't pay any attention to the routing of the wire for the front panel, just used it as it came with the computer case.

 So I hooked the Bravo amp to the front panel and heard very audible noise that seemed to be correlated with hard drive operations. (the front panel wire runs through the HD bay). The sound went away but I could get it to come back by doing something like opening Photoshop. So I hooked the amp up to the back panel jack and zero noise. I didn't worry about it after that I guess I could shield or reroute the wire. I suppose it could be associated with something else in the case, any ideas?_

 

Ahhh, yeah, I had the same issue,

 I believe it is caused because the front port is on the same bus (I think?) as the lead to the HDD's (it is also on the same signal channel as USB ports)

 This means that when you draw power off any component on the front panel, signal noise is introduced, so it is the frontport/bus that is creating the actual noise, but the hdd spinning and PS accessing the frontport briefly while processing that makes the noise your referring to when using PS. Try plugging in a USB Thumb Drive, and your headphones into the front port, and then copying a 20 meg file over to your harddrive, you'll see what I mean, it's the bus, not the HDD's themselves that cause the actual signal noise. (this is why you get no noise in back, because there is no signal overlap for your audio out of dedicated sound card, nothing else is drawing on that signal for other uses....)

 This make sense? Other than interconnects, I just can't see a reason why HDD's would interfere with amp noise, other than if using a bad signal (1/8th jack out of frontpanel) as source. (which is why I run my DAC out of back of card, then to the Amp, and was concerned about the presence of hum/hiss in this scenario, as when I plug the headphones straight into the Soundcard I get no hum/hiss at all)

 This clarify things perhaps? (or am I totally off track... try the USB transfer though, you'll see what I mean)


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How does a larger power supply improve the sound in this amp? Does the 1A power supply limit the sound or power? I did notice that the indeed amp comes with a 2A unit. I will buy a larger power supply if the improvement is significant. Do you guys know the dimensions for the round power supply connector? 




 I am about 30 hours on the Bravo and the pinched waist amperex now and the sound is improving. I was listening to Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon and she sounds amazing._

 

The improvement is significant and easy to hear. The bass is deeper/tighter/thicker plus there is better definition and clarity.


----------



## mrarroyo

I forgot to state that thanks to HiFlight I was able to listen to this little amp and I was very impressed by it. So much so I started looking to buy one, however at $90 plus S&H is a pretty steep increase in price.


----------



## HiFlight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How does a larger power supply improve the sound in this amp? Does the 1A power supply limit the sound or power? I did notice that the indeed amp comes with a 2A unit. I will buy a larger power supply if the improvement is significant. Do you guys know the dimensions for the round power supply connector? 




 I am about 30 hours on the Bravo and the pinched waist amperex now and the sound is improving. I was listening to Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon and she sounds amazing._

 

It's my opinion that the 1A switcher does not provide enough current for transients especially low bass. Using a 2A supply noticeably improve the bass impact and resulted in a considerably cleaner overall sound. 

 Considering the current draw of the FETs and filament heater, I believe the 1A is somewhat overtaxed, and does not allow the Bravo to show its full potential.


----------



## D.Proper

Just got one of these amps myself; fairly quick shipping and no problems with US customs. Putting it through its paces, have run ATH-M50's, K270 Playback's and PX100's through the Bravo and they *all* have benefited from it; the sound is great. No power supply or component issues either (fingers crossed!). So far I'm pretty impressed with this little amp, especially for what I paid for it. A little dismayed to see that some folks are having problems with them and the price on eBay jumped $30 from what they were. Glad to hear the vendor is stand-up when it comes to resolving issues.

 However, wanted to do some rolling so I replaced the stock 6N11 tube with a Sylvania 6DJ8 and immediately noticed that the the amp went from being tomb-like quiet while turning the volume knob (and no sound going through it) to having a static-y, dirty-pot kind of sound in the left channel while adjusting the volume. Also, the bass sounds a little "flabby" in the right channel. Strange as it doesn't happen on the 6N11 but does on both of the 6DJ8's I have. Any suggestions on what it might be? Maybe the bias pots need adjusting? Thanks for any help!


----------



## HiFlight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D.Proper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got one of these amps myself; fairly quick shipping and no problems with US customs. Putting it through its paces, have run ATH-M50's, K270 Playback's and PX100's through the Bravo and they *all* have benefited from it; the sound is great. No power supply or component issues either (fingers crossed!). So far I'm pretty impressed with this little amp, especially for what I paid for it. A little dismayed to see that some folks are having problems with them and the price on eBay jumped $30 from what they were. Glad to hear the vendor is stand-up when it comes to resolving issues.

 However, wanted to do some rolling so I replaced the stock 6N11 tube with a Sylvania 6DJ8 and immediately noticed that the the amp went from being tomb-like quiet while turning the volume knob (and no sound going through it) to having a static-y, dirty-pot kind of sound in the left channel while adjusting the volume. Also, the bass sounds a little "flabby" in the right channel. Strange as it doesn't happen on the 6N11 but does on both of the 6DJ8's I have. Any suggestions on what it might be? Maybe the bias pots need adjusting? Thanks for any help!_

 

The bias was set for the 6N11. Typically, the 6DJ8 runs at a higher plate voltage, so in effect, your bias is now low and likely not even running Class A at this point. I tried several other quality tubes, but found that the best sound was using the stock 6N11. I have not reset the bias for any of the other tubes. Perhaps in the future, I will try putting the amp on my test equipment and making some changes, but for now, I will just continue to use the 6N11.


----------



## 22B

Thanks for the explanation regarding the power supply. I think my little amp could use more power to drive my QP85s. I have found a 24V 2.5A PSU that should work for 20$ shipped. Have a look here. NEW Genuine HP F1454A 24V 2.5A Power Supply AC Adapter - eBay (item 270459297216 end time Jan-18-10 17:53:54 PST)

 What do you guys think about this PSU?


----------



## LionPlushie

hey guys, how can i email bravodeal4you? sent him a message 2 weeks ago and didn't get any reply from him.


----------



## LeTiger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LionPlushie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey guys, how can i email bravodeal4you? sent him a message 2 weeks ago and didn't get any reply from him._

 

Did you email him directly through Ebay? (using your account?)

 You might have been filtered out if you used his regular email,

 For the direct response, you might try bravodeal <at> gmail {dot} com


----------



## LionPlushie

ok thanks! yep i emailed him thru ebay.


----------



## D.Proper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiFlight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bias was set for the 6N11. Typically, the 6DJ8 runs at a higher plate voltage, so in effect, your bias is now low and likely not even running Class A at this point. I tried several other quality tubes, but found that the best sound was using the stock 6N11. I have not reset the bias for any of the other tubes. Perhaps in the future, I will try putting the amp on my test equipment and making some changes, but for now, I will just continue to use the 6N11._

 

Thanks for the reply and explanation, HiFlight. So I guess you're saying that I have to adjust the bias with those trim pots, correct? What exactly does each one do? Very much a noob when it comes to tube amps so any guidance is greatly appreciated.

 Is there a guide here in the forum that I've overlooked for adjusting bias or is it more like slowly turn the screw on each trim pot, keep listening and hope for the best? Thanks for any advice/guidance and pointing me in the right direction.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Well Gang...

 I found my meter. Power supply measures a perfect 24V.

 I was thinking the trouble with my Amp was one of the 
 2N3906 PNP transistors. But I looked up how to test them, and they both measure the same. So now I am thinking that one of the ICF630's is not functioning (one heats up one does not). But I still have no sound on the side that does heat up.

 Is it worth trying to replace one of them...to try get this unit going??


----------



## 22B

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D.Proper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the reply and explanation, HiFlight. So I guess you're saying that I have to adjust the bias with those trim pots, correct? What exactly does each one do? Very much a noob when it comes to tube amps so any guidance is greatly appreciated.

 Is there a guide here in the forum that I've overlooked for adjusting bias or is it more like slowly turn the screw on each trim pot, keep listening and hope for the best? Thanks for any advice/guidance and pointing me in the right direction._

 

I too would like for some instructions for setting bias since I am using 6922 and pcc88 valves. Can anyone here give some clear instructions on how to do this correctly? Thanks


----------



## gurusan

adjust the pots til it sounds right...? With my mullard ECC88 I only had to adjust them slightly counter clockwise....to about 11 o'clock or so


----------



## endless402

whats the difference between this and indeed?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *endless402* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_whats the difference between this and indeed?_

 

Apparently not much difference, except for individual components. I've only had to do what gurusan describes: just a little tweaking with both pots. I had the headphones on and when the sound was suddenly balanced in the phones I stopped. The pots aren't very precise feeling, but they are lined up the same, currently.

 Initially, with the 6N11, the right pot was all the way clockwise (at 1 o'clock) and the left was at 11 o'clock. Now they are both at 12. A little turning goes a long way with the sound presentation.


----------



## ovrclkd

I'm about to pull the trigger on the Bravo or Indeed ..... suggestions for a new first time buyer? I'm currently using 595 cans.
 I noticed the Indeed already comes with a 2a 24v power supply.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HiFlight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bias was set for the 6N11. Typically, the 6DJ8 runs at a higher plate voltage, so in effect, your bias is now low and likely not even running Class A at this point. I tried several other quality tubes, but found that the best sound was using the stock 6N11. I have not reset the bias for any of the other tubes. Perhaps in the future, I will try putting the amp on my test equipment and making some changes, but for now, I will just continue to use the 6N11._

 

I notice that they do not use the 6N11 now but the 6922. Also there is another brand that claims to be the first producer of this amp, with a lower price and the 6N11 tube and a 2 amp power supply.


----------



## D.Proper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Apparently not much difference, except for individual components. I've only had to do what gurusan describes: just a little tweaking with both pots. I had the headphones on and when the sound was suddenly balanced in the phones I stopped. The pots aren't very precise feeling, but they are lined up the same, currently.

 Initially, with the 6N11, the right pot was all the way clockwise (at 1 o'clock) and the left was at 11 o'clock. Now they are both at 12. A little turning goes a long way with the sound presentation._

 

Thanks for the input, gurusan and Judge Buff; from what I've been reading that appears to be the way folks are making their adjustments. Just wondering if there's a more precise way to do it by measuring voltage with a multimeter and where I should take measurements with the probes.

 As far as the Indeed vs. Bravo differences, after doing a lot of reading I'm agreed with JB. Don't have both amps so I can't directly compare but the general consensus is the Bravo has improved components and an overall better build quality. Personally, I haven't had any issues with the Bravo's stock power supply so far (knock on wood). With the 595's sensitivity and impedance, you should have no problem driving them with either amp.


----------



## ovrclkd

Thanks DP .... I'm going to order the Bravo .... and not to get off topic .... I may get the Maverick as well because I need to drive a signal to a guitar effects processor from my Zen or Ipod. The volumes just not there and although I've looked at the pico portables, the selection of inputs on the Maverick makes it very tempting and it will give me something else to compare and play with now that I've offically "started" down the path.

 Anyway thanks for the input ... it's the first post I've gotten a reply too .... this is exciting. Well here goes another avenue for my GAS problem.


----------



## brendon

Could someone please explain how you 'adjust the bias' ? I have changed the stock tube but I have'nt a clue how to adjust the bias.


----------



## LionPlushie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I forgot to state that thanks to HiFlight I was able to listen to this little amp and I was very impressed by it. So much so I started looking to buy one, however at $90 plus S&H is a pretty steep increase in price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/mrarroyo/DSCN0837.jpg[IMG][/i]
 [/td] [/tr] [/table]


are you going to get that? also quite shocked to see the increase in price.

 not sure if it is worth the money now that it is almost 2x the price._


----------



## mrarroyo

No I will not be buying the amp for $90 plus S&H. Although the price is still low compared with the quality of the sound it irks me to see a doubling in price of the unit just after it got popular. I truly believe in price to follow demand but not with a 100% increase, so if not many buy it then it may go back to the lower price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, I was buying it as a novelty amp, do not need it. Cheers.


----------



## Solitary1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goebish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think Henry said he need to find another 6N11 tubes lot, as he sold all the stock he had for now.
 Shouldn't be too long, keep looking on ebay.

 edit: looks like he's using russian EH6922 (electro harmonix) instead of chinese 6N11 now: Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier preamp audio amp - eBay (item 260534776993 end time Feb-06-10 23:05:00 PST), but it's overpriced._

 

Damn! That much of a price increase is crazy.


----------



## weibby

woot change to electro harmonix 6922 and it jacks up to another 50 bucks?

Electro-Harmonix 6922 Gold
 These tubes only cost $23.. thats crazy.


----------



## Solitary1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No I will not be buying the amp for $90 plus S&H. Although the price is still low compared with the quality of the sound it irks me to see a doubling in price of the unit just after it got popular. I truly believe in price to follow demand but not with a 100% increase, so if not many buy it then it may go back to the lower price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, I was buying it as a novelty amp, do not need it. Cheers._

 

Agreed. At that price the Phenix G3 is a better deal.


----------



## Solitary1

And I hope with that price increase they're using a better power supply along with the better tube. My ps just gave up the ghost last week also. Henry is sending me another, but I'm looking for alternatives.

 Since i was one of the lucky early bidders ($30), I'm not complaining too much.


----------



## a_tumiwa

Bravo is copycat Indeed or Indeed is copycat Bravo??
 none of them...

 they are copycat this one....

MHHA 6N11 µç×Ó¹Ü¶ú·Å ¶ú»ú·Å´óÆ÷ Headphone AMP-Ó°ÒôµçÆ÷ - ÌÔ±¦Íø

 Just kidding


----------



## alexofc69

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *weibby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_woot change to electro harmonix 6922 and it jacks up to another 50 bucks?

Electro-Harmonix 6922 Gold
 These tubes only cost $23.. thats crazy._

 

I paid $61.88 with shipping plus $17.90(shipped) for an electro harmonix tube. So. all under $70.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *a_tumiwa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bravo is copycat Indeed or Indeed is copycat Bravo??_

 

Indeed appeared first, I believe....


----------



## gurusan

The indeed amplifier is still priced the same. I love mine


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could someone please explain how you 'adjust the bias' ? I have changed the stock tube but I have'nt a clue how to adjust the bias._

 

You adjust the bias according the the curve for the tube. This also change the gain of the tube, to a degree. The more bias the hotter the tube will run and bias runs it to the class A. You have to measure the plate voltage as well as the bias on the cathode and measure across the cathode resistor for current being used. The cathode resistor is the adjustable pot by each tube. That pot can also affect the sound and if I found a tube that was favorite I would change the pot out for a good resistor of the same value the pot had been set for. Otherwise a good quality pot should be used. Is there a cap on the cathode for bypass?


----------



## ovrclkd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Solitary1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed. At that price the Phenix G3 is a better deal._

 

Damn this gets soooo confusing! 
 Now the Phenix will come to $160 shipped.
 (does it come with tubes or is that another $70.00)
 The Bravo with the standard EH6922 comes to about $106.00 shipped
 The Indeed is $88.00 shipped
 The EH6922 is $20 / GOLD 6922 tube is $31.00 shipped which brings the cost of upgrading an Indeed to between $108 - $119.00

 Is the Phenix THAT much better that it justifies the extra cost?
 I ask because I have no clue and need the opinions of owners with experience.

 What's a shame is I have Pelican boxes full of tubes for my mesa's, fenders and peavey's but none of them seem to fit these configurations.


----------



## Judge Buff

There are much better tubes out there than the EH Gold for less money... The Indeed is a much better value and seems more more reliable from reading both of the amps' threads, IMO.


----------



## ovrclkd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are much better tubes out there than the EH Gold for less money... The Indeed is a much better value and seems more more reliable from reading both of the amps' threads, IMO._

 

Thanks Judge, all this input is appreciated and valued.
 Having this amp yourself and being familiar with it's nuances
 what tubes would you recommend? I usually order from the tube store, TAD, or Eurotubes. 

 I just won the Indeed for $74.00 shipped on the bay, aside from the the gold pin and standard EH6922 what others have you used. I know the gold pins allow better conductivity but is it worth the cost? Still confused but this is my first "headphone" amp & I'm on my way ..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I remember years ago when I got my first guitar tube amp, a Peavey Classic 20 and I said "this will be fine". Now the house looks like Guitar Center. My wife usually walks up to a new piece and asks "have we met?"


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hans just emailed me and said a replacement amp was sent to me yesterday and he provided a tracking number. Hope that means faster delivery, as well.

 Looking forward to a working example...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ovrclkd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Judge, all this input is appreciated and valued.
 Having this amp yourself and being familiar with it's nuances
 what tubes would you recommend? I usually order from the tube store, TAD, or Eurotubes. 

 I just won the Indeed for $74.00 shipped on the bay, aside from the the gold pin and standard EH6922 what others have you used. I know the gold pins allow better conductivity but is it worth the cost? Still confused but this is my first "headphone" amp & I'm on my way ..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I remember years ago when I got my first guitar tube amp, a Peavey Classic 20 and I said "this will be fine". Now the house looks like Guitar Center. My wife usually walks up to a new piece and asks "have we met?" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

As posted in the Indeed thread, my current tube(s) of choice are 6dj8 A frames with dimpled disks. Philips/Amperex, Mullard, RCA... each have their subtle nuances, but as a type, the A Frame with a dimpled disk makes my Zune and the SRH 440s sound incredibly clear and spacious with solid bass, very strong and forward mids, and precise and crystal highs. My current tube is an RCA-branded, Heerlen bred, A Frame that only cost $8 inc. shipping, off of eBay. I got two for $16 total. Don't worry about the pin coating; as long as it's clean and conductive you won't know the difference between steel, gold, or an alloy. I wouldn't pay more than ~ $25 plus shipping for any tube to go in this amp.

 Great tubes don't have to cost a fortune. Shop around and don't pay retail if you don't absolutely must.


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ovrclkd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damn this gets soooo confusing! 
 Now the Phenix will come to $160 shipped.
 (does it come with tubes or is that another $70.00)
 The Bravo with the standard EH6922 comes to about $106.00 shipped
 The Indeed is $88.00 shipped
 The EH6922 is $20 / GOLD 6922 tube is $31.00 shipped which brings the cost of upgrading an Indeed to between $108 - $119.00

 Is the Phenix THAT much better that it justifies the extra cost?
 I ask because I have no clue and need the opinions of owners with experience.

 What's a shame is I have Pelican boxes full of tubes for my mesa's, fenders and peavey's but none of them seem to fit these configurations._

 

For that price the Phenix comes with tubes but even though the phenix and the bravo use the same tubes(6dj8) they are not like for like. 

 The bravo and Indeed are hybrids whilst the Phenix is an OTL design. The bravo is great at driving low impedance phones like my grados, the phenix would be better driving higher impedance cans that the lower ones.

 The phenix is a reversed engineered earmax and the earmax pro was designed for low impedance headphones but there is about four different types of earmax's, whos to say which one the phenix has copied. This is what put me off getting one for the time being as I only have grado's and a denon on the way, at this present time.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The phenix is a reversed engineered earmax and the earmax pro was designed for low impedance headphones but there is about four different types of earmax's, whos to say which one the phenix has copied._

 

That's not correct, the PRO was designed for higher impedances and the SE for low and high impedances. The gain of the SE is because that a bit higher. It is hardly recommended to use 60 ohm minimum for the PRO, better 120 ohm. The SE could be also driven by HP's of 16 ohm impedance.


----------



## alexofc69

I finally got my Bravo today. About 20 days to California.
 So, it was packaged really nice and in good condition. Installed the tube. Let it warm up for about 10 min. ...and only static out of the left phone! So, I figured it was the tube. I had a brand new Electro Harmonix 6922 sitting here. Installed, warmed up and perfect!!! 
 I got the amp mainly to get some warmth and bottom end out of my Audio Technica ATH AD-700's. It has definitely helped a lot. Im going to try another tube later.
 My Grado SR80's sound nice. My Denon D2000s are only OK via the Bravo. I suspect since the D2000s are already warm and full they dont really benefit from the tube. Im going to play with it with my Fubar II DAC tonight.
 Im happy with the purchase. Lets see how this little amp holds up.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alexofc69* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a brand new Electro Harmonix 6922 sitting here. Installed, warmed up and perfect!!! 
 I got the amp mainly to get some warmth and bottom end out of my Audio Technica ATH AD-700's. It has definitely helped a lot. Im going to try another tube later._

 

Excellent report Alex...

 I too intend to use mine with ATH-A700's and Gaado SR80's. With the ATH-A700's being the main target for use.

 Good to hear that all yours needed was a fresh tube (and that you had one on hand).

 Cheers...


----------



## derek800

I just received my Bravo today, I'm very surprised that it came this quick. It was shipped on January 5th, so it only took 7 business days if you count Saturday. So far I'm very impressed with the sound of this little amp. I've been using it with my HD 238's, and it seems to improve the soundstage and both the highs and the bass are improved. I only tried it for a few minutes with the stock tube before I switched it out with a Sylvania 6dj8 that I got from ebay for $7 shipped. I think it definitely sounds better with the new tube, but I do notice a tiny bit of low static sound with the Sylvania tube. I can only notice it when the music is very low or not playing so its not a big deal, just wondering if that is something that needs to be fixed by adjusting the pots.


----------



## gurusan

I have changed the caps again to some Sanyo WG 1500uF that I discovered from an old XFI modding project. As they are quite large I also bypassed them with Wima MKP .33uF film caps. I noticed a small improvement from changing the stock Elna RJJ to the Nichicon Muse ES, but now with these bypassed Sanyo WG I can definitely notice a difference, mids sound about the same but the bass and highs have improved noticeably


----------



## JazzVinyl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have changed the caps again to some Sanyo WG 1500uF that I discovered from an old XFI modding project. As they are quite large I also bypassed them with Wima MKP .33uF film caps. I noticed a small improvement from changing the stock Elna RJJ to the Nichicon Muse ES, but now with these bypassed Sanyo WG I can definitely notice a difference, mids sound about the same but the bass and highs have improved noticeably 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Can you please post a photo of your mods, Gurusan..??


----------



## Mortuus

guys I bought this tube, do you think it'll be an improvement on the one provided?

 Hewlett Packard ECC88


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's not correct, the PRO was designed for higher impedances and the SE for low and high impedances. The gain of the SE is because that a bit higher. It is hardly recommended to use 60 ohm minimum for the PRO, better 120 ohm. The SE could be also driven by HP's of 16 ohm impedance._

 

Im no expert on Earmax amps but from what I have read the PRO version was designed with low impedance headphones in mind. I did a quick google search and from the reviews and shops selling it they all say the PRO version has been designed for low impedance phones.

EarMax Pro Vacuum Tube Headphone Amplifier
Earmax Headphone Amp Review


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mortuus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_guys I bought this tube, do you think it'll be an improvement on the one provided?

 Hewlett Packard ECC88



_

 

I have tried Sylvania, brimar, mazda, amperex and they have all been better than the standard tube.

 Your hewlett ecc88's are the same as my amperex bugle boy's and to my ears they sound livelier with more detail.


----------



## Mortuus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have tried Sylvania, brimar, mazda, amperex and they have all been better than the standard tube.

 Your hewlett ecc88's are the same as my amperex bugle boy's and to my ears they sound livelier with more detail._

 

Interesting. This is my first amp and I was pretty impressed with it using the standard tube. I got 2 of the hp tubes from ebay for £12 (had £6 ebay voucher so half price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## lozanoa11

Well I got mine today. Initial impressions are good. It too 11 days including weekends. Using it with my Sr 325's. 

 Bass has alot more punch to it. Not overpowering in any way and not bloated just more punch. 

 Mids sound a little more full but not much difference. 

 Treble is another story. It seems to be a little less defined. Biggest notice was that rapid cymbal hits seem to meld together. I know its the nature of the headphone and this seems make it a little worse. 

 All in all I think its a great starter amp. Its silent up untill the 12'oclock setting and a little static can be heard. We will see how it burns in. Also sound stage seems to be better, its too soon to tell though.


----------



## jamato8

Seems like a fun amp to start with and modify. I would get a 2 or 3 amp power supply if they provide anything more than the 1 amp and then caps, as mentioned above and tweaking the bias.


----------



## Robot Metal

Just got my Bravo amp and spliced the speaker wires from the adapter to a cut 1/4 cable. I'll have to upgrade the tube, as the others pointed out. (Should come any day, actually) By default it sounds a lot less detailed/clear compared to my standard SS speaker amp.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lozanoa11* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I got mine today. Initial impressions are good. It too 11 days including weekends. Using it with my Sr 325's. 

 Bass has alot more punch to it. Not overpowering in any way and not bloated just more punch. 

 Mids sound a little more full but not much difference. 

 Treble is another story. It seems to be a little less defined. Biggest notice was that rapid cymbal hits seem to meld together. I know its the nature of the headphone and this seems make it a little worse. 

 All in all I think its a great starter amp. Its silent up untill the 12'oclock setting and a little static can be heard. We will see how it burns in. Also sound stage seems to be better, its too soon to tell though._

 

My stock tube crackled horribly, and I've experienced a couple of others that do as well. Roll a decent Siemens 6922 or Tele into it and the treble definition will probably surprise you. Put a NOS 6dj8 (Philips/Amperex are my favs) in it and the overall soundstage will make the stock tube sound anemic.

 Your Grados should really appreciate a good 6922/E88CC substitution.


----------



## Solitary1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im no expert on Earmax amps but from what I have read the PRO version was designed with low impedance headphones in mind. I did a quick google search and from the reviews and shops selling it they all say the PRO version has been designed for low impedance phones.

EarMax Pro Vacuum Tube Headphone Amplifier
Earmax Headphone Amp Review_

 

The Earmax PRO has the ability to drive low impedance phones that the regular does not. It's not designed for low impedance phones only.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Just for giggles...here is a short video of my Bravo. This is all it does...pulse. No sound in the headphones besides a "swoosh" that goes with the pulse.

YouTube - Bravo Amp "pulses"

 Seller has already sent me a replacement, so all should be well soon.

 Just wondered if the sight of the error would cause anyone here to recognize what is wrong with this example...


----------



## alexofc69

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My stock tube crackled horribly, and I've experienced a couple of others that do as well. Roll a decent Siemens 6922 or Tele into it and the treble definition will probably surprise you. Put a NOS 6dj8 (Philips/Amperex are my favs) in it and the overall soundstage will make the stock tube sound anemic.

 Your Grados should really appreciate a good 6922/E88CC substitution._

 

The stock tube was just static and crackly out of the left side only. the right side had no sound. I had a new EH 6922. Popped it in and thats all it needed!


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Solitary1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Earmax PRO has the ability to drive low impedance phones that the regular does not. It's not designed for low impedance phones only._

 

I didnt mean that the pro was for low impedance only, which my first post on the matter might imply. In my second post I said the pro was designed with low imp cans in mind.

 But thanks for clearing that up anyway Solitary1


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JazzVinyl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you please post a photo of your mods, Gurusan..??_

 

Obviously I need to get some longer bolts now


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im no expert on Earmax amps but from what I have read the PRO version was designed with low impedance headphones in mind. I did a quick google search and from the reviews and shops selling it they all say the PRO version has been designed for low impedance phones._

 

The mentioned description was made for the old release, but that is no longer valid. Compared to the newer SE are the specifications of the PRO relatively limited for lower impedances. Brocksieper knows the shortcomings of the PRO very well. This was one of the reasons for the new SE!


----------



## gurusan

Got something nice in the post today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nichicon KW 25V 4700uF. Only thing left for me to do now is replace this crappy power switch and maybe stick on some rubber feet.


----------



## nsx_23

I really hope they drop the price on this baby soon. Seems really interesting for the money. 

 Anyone tried this with the HD650?


----------



## Judge Buff

^^ Gurusan! You da man! How does it sound? BTW, that's a good-looking Mully in there! Will the top acrylic sheet fit with the KW in place?

 ^ NSX, these little amps have been increasing in price for several months...


----------



## gurusan

The KW sounds great, the bass seems to have some more punch and extension now, although I suspect that upgrading the power supply will make the biggest difference, but I will hold on that for awhile.

 The KW just barely fits, it's so snug that I would actually say that it doesn't really fit...you can't tighten the top nuts all the way without bending the plastic. Just need to get some slightly larger spacers.


----------



## jamato8

Looks like great fun. Simple, to the point but very modifiable. I may get one just for the fun of it. Too bad all my 6DJ8 types are in storage 1000 miles from here. I have some of the finest ever made in NOS. I think I have around 250 or so. Oh well, picking up a few off of ebay wouldn't be too bad.


----------



## derek800

Is it normal for there to be static with this amp when its just starting to heat up? I noticed if I start listening to this when it's only been on for a couple of minutes there is static that is mostly heard only in the right ear. It starts to go away after it warms up for around 10 minutes. It's not a big deal because it goes away, I was just wondering if anyone else noticed this, or if this is a characteristic of tube amps.


----------



## Palpatine

Wow...weird little amp, for sure. Hope they work well for you guys.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it normal for there to be static with this amp when its just starting to heat up? I noticed if I start listening to this when it's only been on for a couple of minutes there is static that is mostly heard only in the right ear. It starts to go away after it warms up for around 10 minutes. It's not a big deal because it goes away, I was just wondering if anyone else noticed this, or if this is a characteristic of tube amps._

 

Its normal.


----------



## Solitary1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nsx_23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really hope they drop the price on this baby soon. Seems really interesting for the money. 

 Anyone tried this with the HD650?_

 

Yes, and with the right tube sounds great. It drives the HD6xx series flawlessly.


----------



## Solitary1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Palpatine* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow...weird little amp, for sure. Hope they work well for you guys._

 

Huh?


----------



## nsx_23

Whilst waiting for the price to come down again, I wonder if I should pick up the Indeed amp instead. 

 They look reasonably close to each other, but how do they differ sound wise? 

 There also seems to be some reliability issues with the Bravo atm.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nsx_23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whilst waiting for the price to come down again, I wonder if I should pick up the Indeed amp instead. 

 They look reasonably close to each other, but how do they differ sound wise? 

 There also seems to be some reliability issues with the Bravo atm._

 

My Indeed is one of the best $42 purchases I've ever made. And you're correct about QC issues with the Bravo. I think that's one of the main reasons that this thread is much more active than the Indeed thread is...


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Indeed is one of the best $42 purchases I've ever made. And you're correct about QC issues with the Bravo. I think that's one of the main reasons that this thread is much more active than the Indeed thread is..._

 

I received an Indeed amp yesterday and now have both Indeed and Bravo. The power supply for the Indeed has a bad hum. The Bravo power supply has an intermittent open on the 24v plug.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received an Indeed amp yesterday and now have both Indeed and Bravo. The power supply for the Indeed has a bad hum. The Bravo power supply has an intermittent open on the 24v plug._

 

That's not good... 

 When you get these niggling little issues dealt with, are you going to be The One that gives us the comprehensive Indeed vs Bravo review that I've asked for for months?

 It *will* go on your permanent record, you know...


----------



## Solitary1

I think I may have found a replacement power supply for this sucker. Thoughts?

PW173KB2403B01 Ault / SL Power Plug-In AC Adapters


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Solitary1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I may have found a replacement power supply for this sucker. Thoughts?

PW173KB2403B01 Ault / SL Power Plug-In AC Adapters_

 

That's a very bad choice, it is a switch mode type, if you want to use something better, take a *linear regulated* PSU (24VDC, 1A). No ripple, no hum and no noise for both, Bravo and Indeed!


----------



## Judge Buff

Guys... don't we want 2A output? Something like this, maybe.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's not good... 

 When you get these niggling little issues dealt with, are you going to be The One that gives us the comprehensive Indeed vs Bravo review that I've asked for for months?

 It *will* go on your permanent record, you know... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sure I can do that. I had to RMA a pair of AKG K702s that I'll need also and those will take a couple weeks to get back and then need to burn in for about 10 days. So its about a month till I can get the review started. I also need to figure out how to bias the tube. I noticed that a Phillips Miniwatt that I have works great in the Indeed but one channel won't work in the Bravo. I suspect that the Indeed came in with a different bias than the Bravo and this is why.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys... don't we want 2A output? Something like this, maybe._

 

*NO !!!* This is for a printer and also a switched mode PSU. Please read my previous posting!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*NO !!!* This is for a printer and also a switched mode PSU. Please read my previous posting! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Doesn't matter what it's advertised for... as it's an oem replacement psu. As long as the specs match and the plug fits, it should be good to go on the amp.

 Roll your eyes else where... You do want at least a 2 A max output, BTW.


----------



## gurusan

I think I am going to attempt to build my own linear regulated supply for my amp based around a national semiconductor LM350. It's good for 3A which should be plenty.

 The stock PSU is a cheap chinese switched mode 1A so a 2A switched mode would be an upgrade, however if I am going to upgrade I would want a linear supply ideally which means it's going to be expensive...which is why I am going to think about building my own.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Doesn't matter what it's advertised for... as it's an oem replacement psu. As long as the specs match and the plug fits, it should be good to go on the amp. You do want at least a 2 A max output, BTW._

 

Wrong again, 1A is more than enough for both amps, and no, it is a matter and plays a very important role what it is made for! Use a linear regulated PSU or the problem appears again.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I am going to attempt to build my own linear regulated supply for my amp based around a national semiconductor LM350. It's good for 3A which should be plenty.

 The stock PSU is a cheap chinese switched mode 1A so a 2A switched mode would be an upgrade, however if I am going to upgrade I would want a linear supply ideally which means it's going to be expensive...which is why I am going to think about building my own. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

A very good decision gurusan, I see you didn't forget to switch on your brain.


----------



## Megaclocker

My bravo that I've bought like 2-3months ago is still working fine. Very nice sound with my new K702.

 The only thing that I hate about that amp is that it become very hot.

 What are the pots doing exactly ?


----------



## D.Proper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also need to figure out how to bias the tube. I noticed that a Phillips Miniwatt that I have works great in the Indeed but one channel won't work in the Bravo. I suspect that the Indeed came in with a different bias than the Bravo and this is why._

 

I'm in a similar situation trying to run a Sylvania 6DJ8 in my Bravo; when I have some spare time I have to figure out how to properly bias this amp, too. If you get to this before I do, CPL593H, would you post your method here in the thread? I, among several others, would be grateful for the information. Thanks!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wrong again, 1A is more than enough for both amps, and no, it is a matter and plays a very important roll what it is made for! Use a linear regulated PSU or the problem appears again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I don't have a problem with my amp now... so I truly don't want to spend more than I paid for the amp on another PS. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If it *is* such a matter in your esteemed opinion, post a link to one you think is suitable... and affordable. That would be a decent roll [sic] for you.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it *is* such a matter in your esteemed opinion, post a link to one you think is suitable... and affordable._

 

Oh yes, that's the way you like it, let other people do the job. Sorry, Google is also your friend!


----------



## 22B

I hooked up my Bravo to my Pioneer dolby surround decoder last night. Wow. What a great sound watching movies with such an amazing soundstage. Every nuance in Modern Warfare and blu-ray dolby digital movies sounds amazing. I am really happy with this amp.

 Here is what I hooked up. PS3-toslink-Pioneer SE-DIR800C-Bravo-MB Quart QP85

 I agree with Judge Buff regarding the PSU. I wouldn't spend more money on the PSU than the price of the amp. To improve the sound, I would rather buy a better amplifier like a LD MKII.


----------



## Shizdan

I just read through 27 pages. I'm loving the look of this amp. I was just wondering though what version is the one to go with? Indeed or Bravo? I love the Black PCB of the Bravo. I will be using these with my HD650's.

 What version is the one to go with?
 How do I connect it to my Xonar Essence STX?
 Is it even worth it to get this to pair it up with my Xonar Essence STX or Auzentech X-Fi Forte?
 Will It synergize nicely with my HD650?


----------



## Judge Buff

I just posted this in the Indeed thread and since it holds true for this thread too, I'm posting it here:

 I got my Elna Silmic IIs (16VDC 470uf) in the mail yesterday afternoon. I got antsy today and replaced both of the 1000uf caps. Sorry about not doing the analysis. I couldn't get to the electronics lab until late next week, due to work issues. Old guys get "wild hairs," too.

 If anything changed initially it would be that the sound became more refined and smoother; especially in the upper mids and trebles. They had more of an edge with the old Elnas, especially with 6dj8s. I'll cook them for a while and report back.

 I may replace the PS cap with a 4700uf KZ, like gurusan did, tomorrow. I may try to post some pics when I'm finished, but it's not like I'm hanging components all over the pcb like some folks (read gurusan) have done. Lol


----------



## igotyofire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just posted this in the Indeed thread and since it holds true for this thread too, I'm posting it here:

 I got my Elna Silmic IIs (16VDC 470uf) in the mail yesterday afternoon. I got antsy today and replaced both of the 1000uf caps. S_

 

why would u replace capictors with ones rated lower.....


----------



## JazzVinyl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why would u replace capictors with ones rated lower....._

 

I wondered that too, but I wasn't going to say anything 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...


----------



## Solitary1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a very bad choice, it is a switch mode type, if you want to use something better, take a *linear regulated* PSU (24VDC, 1A). No ripple, no hum and no noise for both, Bravo and Indeed!_

 

You're right, I though it was linear, my bad.


----------



## CPL593H

deleted


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *D.Proper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm in a similar situation trying to run a Sylvania 6DJ8 in my Bravo; when I have some spare time I have to figure out how to properly bias this amp, too. If you get to this before I do, CPL593H, would you post your method here in the thread? I, among several others, would be grateful for the information. Thanks!_

 


 I just used the trim pots to adjust the plate voltage to Sijosae's (the designer) recommended design value of 16-17 volts (for each channel). Here's a pin diagram for the 6DJ8. The plates are pins 1 and 6.

http://www.vt52.com/ftp/data/iht%20s...ignal/6DJ8.PDF

 remember when you look at this diagram it is a bottom view. So as you look down on the amp pin 1 is on the side of the gap toward the RCA jacks and pin 6 is by the 2N3906 transistor. 


 You will need a vom with probe tips. Take the acrylic top plate off, turn on the amp, turn down the volume and let it warm up then measure voltage between ground (the outside of the power plug is good) and the pin on the tube socket. Adjust the trip pot to get 17 volts. Repeat for the other channel. You may want to put some tape on the probe to only have the tip exposed so you don't short something out.

 This worked good and got the amp near where I would have put it just by listening (which I did for a long time and then just set it at 17 volts and called it good).


----------



## D.Proper

Thank you so much for posting clear and concise instructions on biasing this amp, CPL593H. While my ears aren't all bad, I do prefer a more exacting method. Hope to get to this in the next week or so, time permitting. Thanks again!


----------



## Robot Metal

I got my upgrade tube ($25 CCA on eBay) and after 8 hours of burning-in, it sounds a lot more clear and detailed than the stock tube, but the vocals still don't have the same realism as my solidstate amp. It also can't get that loud without clipping. But when I have this output to the aforementioned amp, the setup sounds awesome. Vocals sound realistic while everything else has the right level of bright/warm sound. Right now I'm going to let it burn in for another 8 hours while I'm gone, with my headphones/adapter connected to the Bravo directly. I'm still new to this whole hi-fi thing so I'll take any suggestions I can.


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with Judge Buff regarding the PSU. I wouldn't spend more money on the PSU than the price of the amp. To improve the sound, I would rather buy a better amplifier like a LD MKII._

 

It is up to you what you do with your money and the LD MKII is maybe a better idea. But read through this thread and see how some people here complains about pricing, hum, noise, ripple, bad tubes and mismatched adjustments. It seems they don't have a problem to spend a lot of money for useless extra tubes and capacitors for doubtful crazy tweaks. But for one of the most basic things, a good PSU, that's much too expensive for them. That is from my point of view completely irrational.


----------



## Shizdan

I'm still on the fence about pairing up the Bravo with my Xonar Essence STX.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AcousticDreams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is up to you what you do with your money and the LD MKII is maybe a better idea. But read through this thread and see how some people here complains about pricing, hum, noise, ripple, bad tubes and mismatched adjustments. It seems they don't have a problem to spend a lot of money for useless extra tubes and capacitors for doubtful crazy tweaks. But for one of the most basic things, a good PSU, that's much too expensive for them. That is from my point of view completely irrational. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Ahem....spending a few dollars on a better tube, a mod that definitely makes a nice change that you can immediately hear in a tube hybrid amp is a far cry fom your statement: 

 "spend a lot of money for useless extra tubes"...

 Not berating your power supply idea, but spending on the tube is not a dumb and 'useless' thing to do.

 ...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why would u replace capictors with ones rated lower....._

 

Good question... One that I've already answered in an earlier post, though. But here you go:

 The Silmic II is Elna's *best* audio electro. The 16V is more than enough here as the actual VDC is ~10 (See gurusan's earlier posts). Nerd1949 modded his with Nichicon KZ 470uf output caps and liked the result.

 So I tried both iterations in one instance. Apparently works, as it sounds much more refined and full. The tubes I tested last night still have their personalities, but they are much smoother sounding. I guess that overall, "richer" is the best adjective for now. 

 Besides if they failed or sounded like manure, I had a backup plan of using 25V 1000uf Nichicon KTs. Not the best audio caps, but they are audio caps... kinda small physically, though.

 Let's face it... I'm just tinkering here. I'm not an electronics engineer and what electronics knowledge I had 30 years ago as an Navy ET went bye-bye 20 years ago. If you don't use it, you lose it... 

 But that's okay. With critics like the acoustic arse trolling around, if I or anyone else makes a 'mistake," I'm sure we'll hear about it, as we already have.


----------



## gurusan

Actually I was wrong regarding the caps seeing 10V. They will see a few volts below the plate voltage, I discovered this by setting my plate voltage with my multimeter as per CPL593H's instructions. (thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 I couldn't get it to go to 17V, only 13.5V but I got both channels to balance within +/- .02V of each other. This left the caps seeing around 10V each if I recall correctly

 Anyway, 16V output caps should still be fine.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually I was wrong regarding the caps seeing 10V. They will see a few volts below the plate voltage, I discovered this by setting my plate voltage with my multimeter as per CPL593H's instructions. (thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 I couldn't get it to go to 17V, only 13.5V but I got both channels to balance within +/- .02V of each other. This left the caps seeing around 10V each if I recall correctly

 Anyway, 16V output caps should still be fine._

 

Well, if they pop, that's why they have vents in the top... LOL

 Yeah, thanks cpl593h! That's great, usable info! And it definitely beats my "listen till it sounds good" method for accuracy!


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good question... One that I've already answered in an earlier post, though. But here you go:

 The Silmic II is Elna's *best* audio electro. The 16V is more than enough here as the actual VDC is ~10 (See gurusan's earlier posts). Nerd1949 modded his with Nichicon KZ 470uf output caps and liked the result.

 So I tried both iterations in one instance. Apparently works, as it sounds much more refined and full. The tubes I tested last night still have their personalities, but they are much smoother sounding. I guess that overall, "richer" is the best adjective for now. 

 Besides if they failed or sounded like manure, I had a backup plan of using 25V 1000uf Nichicon KTs. Not the best audio caps, but they are audio caps... kinda small physically, though.

 Let's face it... I'm just tinkering here. I'm not an electronics engineer and what electronics knowledge I had 30 years ago as an Navy ET went bye-bye 20 years ago. If you don't use it, you lose it... 

 But that's okay. With critics like the acoustic arse trolling around, if I or anyone else makes a 'mistake," I'm sure we'll hear about it, as we already have._


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually I was wrong regarding the caps seeing 10V. They will see a few volts below the plate voltage, I discovered this by setting my plate voltage with my multimeter as per CPL593H's instructions. (thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 I couldn't get it to go to 17V, only 13.5V but I got both channels to balance within +/- .02V of each other. This left the caps seeing around 10V each if I recall correctly

 Anyway, 16V output caps should still be fine._

 

Did you check your power supply voltage. I could get my plate voltage higher than 17 volts, almost 20 I think.


----------



## gurusan

Yup the PSU is 24.3V


----------



## Shizdan

You guys and your jargin lol. So again, Should I pick up the Bravo even If I have the HD650's with an Xonar Essence STX?


----------



## gurusan

It's a great amp for the money but it seems a bit out of place between such expensive components....


----------



## spiritualized

Actually, I'm using mine between a Wavelength Brick and my HD 650's and I am very impressed with the results I'm getting. I had an X-Can V3 before this, and quite frankly I find the Bravo to be far more involving and musical. And, this is with the original tube and power supply.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup the PSU is 24.3V_

 

Maybe your meter reads in Imperial volts.


----------



## jamato8

By the time the voltage is regulated or goes through a couple of resistors the voltage won't be near the 24 of the power supply. What does the voltage read across the cap? That is all that matter as it sees the voltage from the ground of the negative contact on the cap. A 10 or 12 volt supply with a 16 volt cap is fine but you should also check to see what it goes to when turned on. They can sometimes go higher until everything settles in a short time but sometimes it is long enough to blow a cap but again I would just measure it at turn-on.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the time the voltage is regulated or goes through a couple of resistors the voltage won't be near the 24 of the power supply. What does the voltage read across the cap? That is all that matter as it sees the voltage from the ground of the negative contact on the cap. A 10 or 12 volt supply with a 16 volt cap is fine but you should also check to see what it goes to when turned on. They can sometimes go higher until everything settles in a short time but sometimes it is long enough to blow a cap but again I would just measure it at turn-on._

 

It's 14.3 volts on the output capacitor on my Indeed with the 6DJ8 plate voltage at 17V. I'm going to put a 16V capacitor on it, its not going to fail kBoom style.


----------



## jamato8

Well there are supply caps on the board so I am wondering what they are running at? The 14.3 should be ok but closer than I would normally want to run. A 25 volt would add some assurance but the most you will have is a bit of a mess and smell, not always fun, if the cap is exceeded by very much. They can take a higher surge than what they are rated for but each cap has a rating for this and should be observed. 

 What is the uf of the coupling cap? Wait, isn't this a hybrid amp with just the input using the tube and a solid state output? Or is there an offset voltage? The tube would be coupled with a cap then to the output section. But that cap doesn't need to be very large in uf.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well there are supply caps on the board so I am wondering what they are running at? The 14.3 should be ok but closer than I would normally want to run. A 25 volt would add some assurance but the most you will have is a bit of a mess and smell, not always fun, if the cap is exceeded by very much. They can take a higher surge than what they are rated for but each cap has a rating for this and should be observed. 

 What is the uf of the coupling cap? Wait, isn't this a hybrid amp with just the input using the tube and a solid state output? Or is there an offset voltage? The tube would be coupled with a cap then to the output section. But that cap doesn't need to be very large in uf._

 

Here's a schematic


----------



## jamato8

Nice, well with the voltages on some of those points I would be using 25 volt caps. On the bias I would measure the resistance of the pot and put in a good carbon resistor and I would change the 317 regulator to a 2 amp and use a 6N1P for fun but the higher amp regulator would at least allow for the 6N1P or any of the 6DJ8 types as the 6N1P has twice the current draw on the heater and for sound, it has a higher plate resistance. The coupling caps sure are important so I would be bypassing them with something nice. Looks like fun.

 I can't tell but I would star ground everything back to the main power supply cap negative. I have never been crazy CCS having tried it a number of times as it can really influence the sound in a solid state manner.


----------



## Judge Buff

Hello Digi-Key? I have it on really good authority that I need some 25V audio grade caps...

 Thanks, Jamato8 and CPL593H... Folks like y'all make this forum indispensable and educational. 

 I changed the PS cap to a 25V 4700uf KW and the amp sure sounds "purty." Awesome bass, great highs and incredibly smooth. Vocals are amazing. 3 caps, $10 mod, definitely worth it. I hope the 16Vs hold up til Wednesday or so. I wonder what's at Krap Shak?


----------



## AcousticDreams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JazzVinyl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not berating your power supply idea, but spending on the tube is not a dumb and 'useless' thing to do._

 

Don't misunderstand me, as long as someone knows what he has to expect from an exchange, is that OK. I'm only against the unmethodical collection of tubes, before the most critical parts have been checked. Toying around is in every case a expensive matter. More than a clean power source.


----------



## jamato8

You can also enhance the mid range with a 220uf or 470uf (my personal choice) bypass cap across the bias resistor, which in this case is the pot used.


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe your meter reads in Imperial volts._

 

lol I hope this was a joke? Sarcasm is difficult to detect across the net.

 Anyway thanks for the info, I'll try messing with the pots again today.

 **edit** ok I definitely can't get them to 17V each. I've got them balanced perfectly to 13.57V per channel and it sounds great.

 I can get one channel to 17V or even 20V but then the other channel reads only around 10V. It looks like I have just over 27V to play with between both channels so if you can put both channels at 17V that means you have 34V between them...perhaps the circuit is slightly different on the Bravo vs. the Indeed?


----------



## goebish

Just received a Dario Miniwatt PCC88 ('A' shaped frame), and I think it's the best tube I tried until now.
 I didn't know if it would work at first because PCC88 filaments require 7V, but it works ...
 Do you think there can be a problem using this type of tube without other modification ?


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goebish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just received a Dario Miniwatt PCC88 ('A' shaped frame), and I think it's the best tube I tried until now.
 I didn't know if it would work at first because PCC88 filaments require 7V, but it works ...
 Do you think there can be a problem using this type of tube without other modification ?_

 

My Mazda PCC88 doesnt glow as bright as the other tubes i have, apart from that thats the only difference I have encountered.

 Saying that all the tubes I have tried have sounded good to me, I have not needed to adjust the yellow pots like others have had to, but thats not say they couldn't sound better if I did.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lol I hope this was a joke? Sarcasm is difficult to detect across the net.

 Anyway thanks for the info, I'll try messing with the pots again today.

 **edit** ok I definitely can't get them to 17V each. I've got them balanced perfectly to 13.57V per channel and it sounds great.

 I can get one channel to 17V or even 20V but then the other channel reads only around 10V. It looks like I have just over 27V to play with between both channels so if you can put both channels at 17V that means you have 34V between them...perhaps the circuit is slightly different on the Bravo vs. the Indeed?_

 

yea it was sarcasm, science jokes can be somewhat dry (the volt is an SI unit, there is no Imperial counterpart) I'm wondering how you amp could not achieve the design voltage on the plate. I'll think about it.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lol I hope this was a joke? Sarcasm is difficult to detect across the net.

 Anyway thanks for the info, I'll try messing with the pots again today.

 **edit** ok I definitely can't get them to 17V each. I've got them balanced perfectly to 13.57V per channel and it sounds great.

 I can get one channel to 17V or even 20V but then the other channel reads only around 10V. It looks like I have just over 27V to play with between both channels so if you can put both channels at 17V that means you have 34V between them...perhaps the circuit is slightly different on the Bravo vs. the Indeed?_

 

The circuit appears to be the same on the Bravo and the Indeed. I have both amplifiers and set them both up to 17v on both channels. The right and left channels are a parallel load on the power supply - that means that they would have double the current draw of a single channel not double the voltage. The only explanation I can come up with is that your amp is loading down the power supply and the supply voltage is dropping. Run both channels up to the highest plate voltage you can get (13) and measure the supply voltage. Is it still 24?


----------



## Judge Buff

I'm like gurusan in that I can't get anywhere near that high a combined V from both channels. My pots are terrible... no precision. I can jiggle them and the V changes up/down without rhyme or reason. Due to that, I tuned them by ear a couple of times and then measured the voltages. Right now, they are within a half volt of each other at 13.78 and 13.3. 

 We do have the exact same PS cap at 4700uf, though. Any effect from that here?


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm like gurusan in that I can't get anywhere near that high a combined V from both channels. My pots are terrible... no precision. I can jiggle them and the V changes up/down without rhyme or reason. Due to that, I tuned them by ear a couple of times and then measured the voltages. Right now, they are within a half volt of each other at 13.78 and 13.3. 

 We do have the exact same PS cap at 4700uf, though. Any effect from that here?_

 

no the ps capacitor won't change the supply voltage. I'm baffled. I am using a different power supply than you guys. I'm using the Bravo PS on both amps because the Indeed PS that I got was DOA.

 I was able to tweak both amps to within .1 volt on both channels. 

 It took a while because the pot has some mechanical play in the adjustment (turn it with no effect) and it is very very sensitive and the combination makes it appear like its random.


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The circuit appears to be the same on the Bravo and the Indeed. I have both amplifiers and set them both up to 17v on both channels. The right and left channels are a parallel load on the power supply - that means that they would have double the current draw of a single channel not double the voltage. The only explanation I can come up with is that your amp is loading down the power supply and the supply voltage is dropping. Run both channels up to the highest plate voltage you can get (13) and measure the supply voltage. Is it still 24?_

 

Still 24.3V


----------



## jamato8

Pots are not very much money. I would replace them with some quality ones from Digi key. A voltage offset between the two tubes isn't going to hurt anything but it is nice to have them close. 

 On the PCC88, they will put out less if you have the voltage on the heater less than spec. If the voltage for the heater can be adjusted, which it looks like it can, I would take it to 7.6 volts as that is what they are designed for or down to 7.3 volts.

 It looks like on the schematic you can adjust the voltage on the filament so I would increase it to 7.3 or 7.6 for the PCC88 or 7DJ8. The very early PCC88 was a 7 volt but then they increased it to 7.6. 

 Also if you are getting an imbalance I would not be surprised if they are not closely checking the Alps pot. Up to 50 percent of Alps pots from the factory can be off and have to be trashed. They are good pots but have a very poor QC on balance.

 That pot used on the cathode can have a profound impact on the ultimate sound. Even resistors I use for the purpose and chosen with thought so using a pot would be even more questionable but one that is not of quality, well I would spend a few bucks and get a nice multi turn one in there.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pots are not very much money. I would replace them with some quality ones from Digi key. A voltage offset between the two tubes isn't going to hurt anything but it is nice to have them close. 

 On the PCC88, they will put out less if you have the voltage on the heater less than spec. If the voltage for the heater can be adjusted, which it looks like it can, I would take it to 7.6 volts as that is what they are designed for or down to 7.3 volts.

 It looks like on the schematic you can adjust the voltage on the filament so I would increase it to 7.3 or 7.6 for the PCC88 or 7DJ8. The very early PCC88 was a 7 volt but then they increased it to 7.6. 

 Also if you are getting an imbalance I would not be surprised if they are not closely checking the Alps pot. Up to 50 percent of Alps pots from the factory can be off and have to be trashed. They are good pots but have a very poor QC on balance.

 That pot used on the cathode can have a profound impact on the ultimate sound. Even resistors I use for the purpose and chosen with thought so using a pot would be even more questionable but one that is not of quality, well I would spend a few bucks and get a nice multi turn one in there._

 

These are outstanding suggestions. 

 For those using the 7DJ8 the way you increase the heater voltage is by replacing the 8.3 ohm resistor on the LM317 regulator. The 317 voltage is adjusted by a voltage divider formed by two resistors. In this case the resistance of the tube heater is used as one of the resistors. 

 So by measuring the voltage on the tube heater, knowing the value of the resistor on the LM317 (8.3 in the schematic) you can calculate the value of the heater resistance. 

 In case you need help with the math here's a calculator that will do it: LM317 Voltage Calculator

 It looks like you would replace the 8.3 ohm resistor with about a 7 ohm to up the heater voltage to 7.6 or so. But since it depends on the resistance of the tube heater you will have to measure actual voltage and calculate. Also need to verify that an 8.3 was used on your amp. It may be different.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Still 24.3V_

 

 well so much for that theory.


----------



## lozanoa11

I have decided that it is too bright for me. What kind of tube am I looking for? Just a 6922? Im new to tube and the numbering and interchangeability is confusing. Is somthing off this page what im looking for?:6DJ8 / 6922 / ECC88 / 7308 Tube Types


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lozanoa11* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have decided that it is too bright for me. What kind of tube am I looking for? Just a 6922? Im new to tube and the numbering and interchangeability is confusing. Is somthing off this page what im looking for?:6DJ8 / 6922 / ECC88 / 7308 Tube Types_

 

I found this link very helpful when researching what tubes to try
6DJ8 Tubes From Brent Jessee Recording


----------



## jamato8

Some of those tubes in my opinion are too much money but hopefully they would be tested and low noise. The 6922/6DJ8 was one of the highest produced tubes of all time. There are many around but for reason they have commanded high prices for years. I do prefer them to the 6SN7's, which I have all varieties. 

 The Amperex A frame is a nice tube in the 6DJ8. The 6N1P, early 1980's and before with the rocket label is excellent and inexpensive. They have twice the current draw for the filament but the regulator is the LM317 and it can output up to 1.5 amps and the 6N1P draws 600mA's, or less than 1/2 the output. Does the LM317 have a good heat sink?


----------



## 22B

Since the trim pots are not precise, I would like to switch them out for better ones. Do you guys know what are good replacements? There are so many options out there. Thanks


----------



## lozanoa11

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some of those tubes in my opinion are too much money but hopefully they would be tested and low noise. The 6922/6DJ8 was one of the highest produced tubes of all time. There are many around but for reason they have commanded high prices for years. I do prefer them to the 6SN7's, which I have all varieties. 

 The Amperex A frame is a nice tube in the 6DJ8._

 

How much would you recommend spending? I mean it is a sub $100 amp.


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lozanoa11* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much would you recommend spending? I mean it is a sub $100 amp._

 

I got a balanced 6dj8 sylvania for $10 on ebay thats all you really you need to spend IMHO


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lozanoa11* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much would you recommend spending? I mean it is a sub $100 amp._

 

If you spend more than $25 for a tube for this amp, you've wasted your money. I recommend this really good, reliable valve that's out there in quantity: a Philips JAN 6922. High quality, great sound and is definitely a great "bang for the buck." You can find them for $15 - 20. It's a true NOS JAN 6922 for less than $20! Well worth it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The Amperex ECC88 I'm listening to right now, was less than $10 shipped off of eBay. Sometimes you can get real lucky.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since the trim pots are not precise, I would like to switch them out for better ones. Do you guys know what are good replacements? There are so many options out there. Thanks_

 

I just ordered two of these. Will they work, guys?


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just ordered two of these. Will they work, guys?_

 

Those are good trim pots. I've built tube amps with Bornes trim pots for bias pots. They are a little easier to set because they don't have the mechanical slop in the wiper that the ones in the Indeed have. I would guess they will fit the hole spacing.


----------



## Melanter

How well do these work with Sennheiser 650s?


----------



## gurusan

Bornes are good, I have used them before. 

 After reading a little about power supplies I have bypassed my main filter cap (4700uF Nichicon KZ) with a Wima .22uF

 I don't notice any difference but it's my understanding this will aid in reducing the more transient high freq. ripple? Nice for peace of mind anyhow.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those are good trim pots. I've built tube amps with Bornes trim pots for bias pots. They are a little easier to set because they don't have the mechanical slop in the wiper that the ones in the Indeed have. I would guess they will fit the hole spacing._

 


 I eyeballed the space at a little larger than .25", so I think they will. I got 2 of the 3/8" ones just to see if they'll fit, too. My eyes got a year older yesterday, so nothing is a given...


----------



## boomy3555

When does the rest of you catch up to your eyes LOL


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I eyeballed the space at a little larger than .25", so I think they will. I got 2 of the 3/8" ones just to see if they'll fit, too. My eyes got a year older yesterday, so nothing is a given...




_

 

Yea, mine got a year older on Thursday last week.

 This voltage regulator from Tangent would be a huge improvement in the power supply. For the DIY crowd. 

Tangent Regulator, Adjustable, plus Diode bridge


----------



## Judge Buff

How difficult would it be to integrate this as the power supply? Would it be as easy as I think?


----------



## gurusan

It would be easy yeah, but I wouldn't spend money on switching power supplies for an upgrade


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How difficult would it be to integrate this as the power supply? Would it be as easy as I think?_

 

Pretty easy project. Need a transformer and the Tangent linear regulator. The transformer might cost 20-30 bucks though for a decent toroidal.

 *edit* I thought when you said "this" you meant the Tangent supply. 
 I agree with gurusan, if you want to upgrade go with a decent linear power supply.


----------



## gurusan

I think the stock supply is fine actually, it's 2A which is more than enough current with some on tap, and if the switching PSU can't be heard through the amp there's no need for me to change it. 

 My tube is a bit microphonic though so I will probably purchase a tube damper. Other than changing the power switch I don't think there's anything left for me to do on this amp, it sounds great. Although I may try to squeeze a small film cap on the lm317 output to help keep it stable.


----------



## Shizdan

I just purchased this off a user here and was wondering.

 1 - What would be the best tube for the HD650?
 2 - Does it really make the HD650 Shine?


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the stock supply is fine actually, it's 2A which is more than enough current with some on tap, and if the switching PSU can't be heard through the amp there's no need for me to change it. 

 My tube is a bit microphonic though so I will probably purchase a tube damper. Other than changing the power switch I don't think there's anything left for me to do on this amp, it sounds great. Although I may try to squeeze a small film cap on the lm317 output to help keep it stable._

 

Take a look at the noise measurements from a modest linear regulated supply like the TREAD compared to a good medical grade switching supply like the Elpac MW1224 ($35 at Mouser). The noise on the Elpac is more than 100 times that of the TREADS. Is it audible? If its ultrasonic ok. But the cheapo supply with these amps I suspect has considerable noise in the audio range. May lift a haze with a good supply. Power Supply Tests


----------



## igotyofire

if the power supply puts out more amps at 24volts then 2 will it be damaging? or will the bravo amp only draw what it needs?

 The MW1224 is only .5 amps, & gurusan is wrong, the supply is 1amp to be technically correct atleast the one that came with mine.


----------



## brendon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shizdan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just purchased this off a user here and was wondering.

 1 - What would be the best tube for the HD650?
 2 - Does it really make the HD650 Shine?_

 

I dont know whats the 'best' tube. But from the 3 I have used - original Chinese tube, Sylvana 6DJ8 and JAN Philips 6922 the best by far is the JAN Philips tube. Very lush mid-range and decent bass and treble. Very happy with the sound so far with the HD650.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if the power supply puts out more amps at 24volts then 2 will it be damaging? or will the bravo amp only draw what it needs?

 The MW1224 is only .5 amps, & gurusan is wrong, the supply is 1amp to be technically correct atleast the one that came with mine._

 

1. for a power supply you need the correct voltage and enough current capability. More is better (with diminishing returns at some point). So you need 24 volts and probably 1 or more amps.
 2. The MW1224 was just an example for noise comparison not suggesting that anyone use this PS.
 3. Gurusan is right, my Indeed PS is 2 amps. My Bravo is 1 amp.


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Take a look at the noise measurements from a modest linear regulated supply like the TREAD compared to a good medical grade switching supply like the Elpac MW1224 ($35 at Mouser). The noise on the Elpac is more than 100 times that of the TREADS. Is it audible? If its ultrasonic ok. But the cheapo supply with these amps I suspect has considerable noise in the audio range. May lift a haze with a good supply. Power Supply Tests_

 

Well I will probably be recasing the amp along with a grubDAC and a Young-Jung PSU


----------



## jamato8

If the power supply isn't right nothing else will be. The musical signal, AC, rides on the DC from the power supply. The better the power supply, the better the sound. More amps at the correct voltage won't hurt anything as the amp will only use what is required. You could have a 24 volt 10 amp power supply if you wanted. Often operating at the lower end of the current output of a power supply also keeps you in the better specs. I wouldn't want to use a switching power supply. A good transformer based PS, though not nearly as efficient, will sound better. 

 Tubes are often the heart of the sound. So what if you pay more for a tube than the amp, if the tube is excellent. It is a major part of the circuit, it is a circuit, so all you are doing is upgrading the circuit, which isn't always cheap but can pay off. The same goes for the power supply. Having said this, I don't know that I would want to spend a couple of extra hundred dollars on the amp. It would seem to take some of the fun out of it, though I have done so in the past with other projects. :^)


----------



## FraGGleR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I will probably be recasing the amp along with a grubDAC and a Young-Jung PSU_

 

Although I am not sure I am going to mess with anything outside of a tube roll, I have thought about recasing with a bantam or grub dac in it. Would an amp in such close proximity to the dac potentially add noise? I know part of the reason for external usb dacs is to get the dac out of the noisy computer environment. Then again I just sold a Total Bithead which had an amp and dac together with no ill effect.

 And to reiterate, I am using a completly stock Bravo with 1a powersupply and I love it with my HD650's. With some of the finickiness of people's Bravo's I hesistate to tweak anything for fear of losing what I am already enjoying.


----------



## gurusan

Well if I recase it with the grubDAC I will put some shielding around the DAC. Shouldn't be too hard as it's soooo small. I just got the PCB today and omg it's tiny.


----------



## Shizdan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont know whats the 'best' tube. But from the 3 I have used - original Chinese tube, Sylvana 6DJ8 and JAN Philips 6922 the best by far is the JAN Philips tube. Very lush mid-range and decent bass and treble. Very happy with the sound so far with the HD650._

 

Thank you!


----------



## Nost

just out of curiosity, would it be better to change the ouput caps first or the power cap? Also, would the power cap need to be of an "audio" spec? and rather than have two 4700uf power caps, would a single 6800uf be appropriate (i have the indeed and would need to create a hole in the acrylic top-plate)?

 When i start swapping parts, id like to do it slowly in order to hear the changes one at a time.

 What to change first and what to change it to?

 Cheers Chaps/Chapesses


----------



## 22B

I just won an ebay auction for a linear power supply for 27$ shipped. It's a Sola SLS-24-024T 24V 2.4Amp. I wasn't planning on a new PSU but you guys are so damn knowledgeable and convincing. I hope this will improve the sound. 

SolaHD; Single/Multi-Output Linear Power Supplies


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just won an ebay auction for a linear power supply for 27$ shipped. It's a Sola SLS-24-024T 24V 2.4Amp. I wasn't planning on a new PSU but you guys are so damn knowledgeable and convincing. I hope this will improve the sound. 

SolaHD; Single/Multi-Output Linear Power Supplies_

 


 wow tell us how it works!


----------



## JazzVinyl

My Bravo arrived dead...I waited a few days and Henry said another was on the way via "Air mail" and he sent a Tracking Number. The # comes back:

 Foreign International Dispatch, January 15, 2010, 11:53 am, HONG KONG AIR MAIL CENTRE, HONG KONG

 So now it's 5 and 1/2 days later and no other scans?

 Can it REALLY be air mail? Does the plane stop at every island between here and Hong Kong or what? 

 Is the "plane" in the belly of a ship?

 Yee-bers!!

 ...


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JazzVinyl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Bravo arrived dead...I waited a few days and Henry said another was on the way via "Air mail" and he sent a Tracking Number. The # comes back:

 Foreign International Dispatch, January 15, 2010, 11:53 am, HONG KONG AIR MAIL CENTRE, HONG KONG

 So now it's 5 and 1/2 days later and no other scans?

 Can it REALLY be air mail? Does the plane stop at every island between here and Hong Kong or what? 

 Is the "plane" in the belly of a ship?

 Yee-bers!!

 ..._

 

The tracking for my bravo said "Hong Kong Air Mail Centre, Hong Kong" right up until the day it was delivered, it never updated at all, it took about 7 business days I think.

 While I'm here posting, I was just wondering if anyone else here that owns the bravo or the indeed amp hears static coming from just one ear of their headphones. When I turn on the amp there is always a low static in the right ear of my headphones. Sometimes it almost goes away after a while, but sometimes it gets a little bit louder and makes a crackling noise. Does anyone have any idea what would cause this or if there is any way to fix this?


----------



## 22B

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The tracking for my bravo said "Hong Kong Air Mail Centre, Hong Kong" right up until the day it was delivered, it never updated at all, it took about 7 business days I think.

 While I'm here posting, I was just wondering if anyone else here that owns the bravo or the indeed amp hears static coming from just one ear of their headphones. When I turn on the amp there is always a low static in the right ear of my headphones. Sometimes it almost goes away after a while, but sometimes it gets a little bit louder and makes a crackling noise. Does anyone have any idea what would cause this or if there is any way to fix this?_

 

Have you tried adjusting the pots or another tube? I heard crackling and a hum when I was adjusting my pots. I just kept turning them back and forth until the crackling went away and sounded good in both channels.


----------



## derek800

I have switched the stock tube with a sylvania 6dj8 and it still has static. I have not adjusted the pots on it, I am new to amps and was not really sure what to do, and I didn't want to mess anything up.


----------



## 22B

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have switched the stock tube with a sylvania 6dj8 and it still has static. I have not adjusted the pots on it, I am new to amps and was not really sure what to do, and I didn't want to mess anything up._

 

Just carefully take the top acrylic cover off. While listening to some quiet music, turn the pots until it sounds good to you. to be safe, tape up the sides of your small flathead screwdriver so you won't short anything out. Others have mentioned using a voltmeter to accurately adjust both sides evenly. Let us know how it works out for you.


----------



## alexofc69

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JazzVinyl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Bravo arrived dead...I waited a few days and Henry said another was on the way via "Air mail" and he sent a Tracking Number. The # comes back:

 Foreign International Dispatch, January 15, 2010, 11:53 am, HONG KONG AIR MAIL CENTRE, HONG KONG

 So now it's 5 and 1/2 days later and no other scans?

 Can it REALLY be air mail? Does the plane stop at every island between here and Hong Kong or what? 

 Is the "plane" in the belly of a ship?

 Yee-bers!!

 ..._

 

Its really slow. Mine took 2.5 weeks to California. I got my iBasso D2 from China in 2 days via DHL.


----------



## brendon

I believe shipping has a lot to do with customs delays as well. A tube amp does look a bit strange especially this one with the open design !


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just carefully take the top acrylic cover off. While listening to some quiet music, turn the pots until it sounds good to you. to be safe, tape up the sides of your small flathead screwdriver so you won't short anything out. Others have mentioned using a voltmeter to accurately adjust both sides evenly. Let us know how it works out for you._

 

Thanks for the tips, I just finished adjusting the pots and there is no more static. It seemed to sound louder this morning, even when there was no music playing, as long as the gain on the amp was turned up a little bit, there was popping static. I just adjusted it until the right channel didn't have static and sounded pretty even. Thanks again.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe shipping has a lot to do with customs delays as well. A tube amp does look a bit strange especially this one with the open design !_

 

Okay...well, maybe I wil get my replacement in another week or so.

 I do wish these Hong Kong sellers had someone in the USA who had stock and would ship out product for them, so that you didn't have these long waits. I think it would aid USA sales tremendously.

 ...


----------



## 22B

I am currently out of town and would like to order a DC plug for my linear power supply. 
 Can someone please measure the DC plug dimensions for me? I need the inner and the outer diameters. 
 Thanks


----------



## brendon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JazzVinyl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay...well, maybe I wil get my replacement in another week or so.

 I do wish these Hong Kong sellers had someone in the USA who had stock and would ship out product for them, so that you didn't have these long waits. I think it would aid USA sales tremendously.

 ..._

 

I believe bigger Chinese amp manufacturers like Little Dot and Darkvoice do keep some stock with USA based sellers but for a small company like Bravo (basically a one man show) it will be difficult to do that considering he has only a single product to sell !


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am currently out of town and would like to order a DC plug for my linear power supply. 
 Can someone please measure the DC plug dimensions for me? I need the inner and the outer diameters. 
 Thanks_

 

I've looked at it and I couldn't figure out how to measure the inside diameter accurately. I think Its a 5.5 outside 2.1 inside. There are some 2.0 inside available and there's a chance it could be that but the 2.1 is much more common. Best guess 5.5 X 2.1


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've looked at it and I couldn't figure out how to measure the inside diameter accurately. I think Its a 5.5 outside 2.1 inside. There are some 2.0 inside available and there's a chance it could be that but the 2.1 is much more common. Best guess 5.5 X 2.1_

 

X2 I also came up with that guesstimate the other day.


----------



## 22B

Thanks for the Dimensions guys. Time to order the plug and some additional things from mouser like the 2.2k bourns pots and some nichicon kz caps as well. This amp is going to be really sweet.


----------



## Shizdan

Well I just got my Bravo in. When I first powered it on my right channel wasn't working so great but then I jiggled the connector and there we go. It was fixed! Now when I plugged my HD650's into it, I was like this sounds like crap.......then realized I just powered it on and it needed time to warm up. Oh and did it warm up! About 5 minutes into it powering up it sounded beyond great! The amp added so much more "body" to my HD650. The bass hits noticeably harder. Everything just seems to have more "Umph".

 Also, I set my gain for the Xonar Essence STX to High Gain 60~300


----------



## gurusan

you really want to set the xonar to give an unamplified line-out signal ideally.


----------



## Shizdan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you really want to set the xonar to give an unamplified line-out signal ideally._

 

Ok I put it to the lowest it could go (Normal Gain)


----------



## upstateguy

Power supply was *unusable* as delivered and the Chinese tube was blah....







 I plugged in the elpac from my M^3 and swapped out the tube with one of the spare JAN Philips 6922s for my Woo3 and it worked.

 I bought it as a curiosity for $31. It's a flimsy toy and I don't use it.

 USG


----------



## Judge Buff

^ Does that mean you want to sell the Bravo?


----------



## lozanoa11

I just got my Phillips Jan 6922 also. Ill have to play with it tonight and see what I think.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ Does that mean you want to sell the Bravo?_

 

Nah, it's a nice curiosity. I'm keeping it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But realize that once you get a "Bravo" you still have to spend $18 on the tube and $30 on the Elpac before it's going to work.

 And even then, all you have is a _working_ curiosity, not a good headphone amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## malldian

your pictures one underneath of the other make it look like you have two plugged into each other.


----------



## lozanoa11

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *malldian* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_your pictures one underneath of the other make it look like you have two plugged into each other._

 

LOL your right!


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *malldian* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_your pictures one underneath of the other make it look like you have two plugged into each other._

 

LOL, it sure does!


----------



## JazzVinyl

I received my replacement Bravo today (yeah).

 This one works. I will reserve comment on how it sounds until it's had some time to settle in...

 It's cookin' now.

 ...


----------



## lozanoa11

So I plugged in my new Philips JAN6922 and I am not impressed at all. At first listen I thought that I could not hear anything different but after a while I got to a song that the bass drum kicks just right and it sounds distorted real bad. The Mids did seem a little smoother though. Its hard for me to believe that burn in can fix this but we will see.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Power supply was *unusable* as delivered and the Chinese tube was blah....

 I plugged in the elpac from my M^3 and swapped out the tube with one of the spare JAN Philips 6922s for my Woo3 and it worked.

 I bought it as a curiosity for $31. It's a flimsy toy and I don't use it.

 USG_

 

I see that Ramsey Lewis is playing on your source there, UpStateGuy...

 Your a Good man, Charlie Brown!!


 ...


----------



## derek800

Not sure if this has been answered here already, but if I'm using an ipod as the source for this amp, should I have the volume low, half, or all the way up on the ipod and then control the volume with the gain on the amp?


----------



## malldian

All the way up and consider getting a LOD


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nah, it's a nice curiosity. I'm keeping it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But realize that once you get a "Bravo" you still have to spend $18 on the tube and $30 on the Elpac before it's going to work.

 And even then, all you have is a working curiosity, not a good headphone amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

I disagree, I found a Sylvania 6DJ8 tube on ebay for around $8 shipped and it sounds great with this amp, and my power supply works fine. This may not be the best amp out there, but I think it's a pretty good sounding starter tube amp. It's not meant to be a great headphone amp, but at its price point it works well.


----------



## Shizdan

I have a wireless router interferance problem. I can hear little clicks or noises when my music is off........very annoying.


----------



## brendon

Hey guys, Bravo audio has come up with V2 of the amp ! It now comes with a 6N10/ECC82 type Chinese tube. The price is now more sane compared to the 'Premium' V1 with the Electro Harmonics Gold tube.

Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier pre Bravo V2 - eBay (item 260541961646 end time Feb-21-10 08:49:19 PST)


----------



## goebish

Looks like the new model got 2 caps in place of the cathode bias trimming pots on the older models ?


----------



## ovrclkd

Interesting.... Indeed "upgraded" theirs as well by now offering the EH6922.
 FWIW I own the Indeed and am pleased with it. This must be like keeping up with the "Jones's" (or "Wong's" in this case). NO deragatory statement implied so keep your skirts on!

 I noticed the spec difference on the input sensitivity between the Indeed and Bravo, would someone explain which value would be better:
 Indeed: 50mv
 Bravo: 100mv


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree, I found a Sylvania 6DJ8 tube on ebay for around $8 shipped and it sounds great with this amp, and my power supply works fine. This may not be the best amp out there, but *I think it's a pretty good sounding starter tube amp*. It's not meant to be a great headphone amp, but at its price point it works well._

 

Good find on your tube derek800. 

 I don't like e-bay for tubes any more, so I get them from Parts Express. Costs a few dollars more, but they have a phone number, so when I called about a micro-phonic tube, they shipped another one out the same day, no questions asked and I didn't have to ship the bad one back.

 I guess it's hit and miss with the power supply. Mine was DOA. I notified the Bravo people and they said they would replace it, but never did. Doesn't really matter though because what you're listening to is the power supply and the included one is really cheap, so if you really want to hear what it sounds like a power supply upgrade is probably in order.

 And I wouldn't call this a good starter amp. It's an over priced, flimsy, _curiosity_ with way too much gain.

 It's only a matter of time until the various connectors break off the board. Yeah, if you plug things in very carefully while supporting the connectors it might last for a while but I wouldn't recommend it to anybody as a "Stater Amp". In it's favor, it's cheap if you win an auction, because it's not worth any more than the $31 I paid.

 USG


----------



## igotyofire

looks like 12au7 tubes are priced better then the 6dj8's heh, seems lil tempting i imagine it will sound different, i think im going to try a phenix next tho.


 whats difference between 12au7 tubes and 12u7 ?


----------



## lozanoa11

Well I rough biased the amp with the JAN 6922 tube and it sounds better. Some songs still sound a little distorted. My DMM is at work so Ill get it closer during the week sometime.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *goebish* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like the new model got 2 caps in place of the cathode bias trimming pots on the older models ?_

 

They replaced the pot with a fixed resistor and capacitor. That would make sense, the normal design for a cathode biased tube amp has a fixed cathode resistor bypassed by a capacitor. This setup with the cathode capacitor gives the amp more gain as it eliminates some parasitic local feedback and with the lower gain 12AU7 this was likely necessary.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lozanoa11* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I rough biased the amp with the JAN 6922 tube and it sounds better. Some songs still sound a little distorted. My DMM is at work so Ill get it closer during the week sometime._

 

It wouldn't be uncommon to burn-in the tube *overnight*. No music or anything... just leave the amp turned on after you get the voltages set. Most Philips JANs out there are mid 80s tubes which makes them 20+ years old. I hope you didn't get a bad one.


----------



## mrarroyo

I have plenty of tubes and a 24 volt 2 amp psu so I sent Bravo Audio a question. How low would they sell the amp if I do not need the PSU nor the tube. Lets see what they say.


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's only a matter of time until the various connectors break off the board. Yeah, if you plug things in very carefully while supporting the connectors it might last for a while but I wouldn't recommend it to anybody as a "Stater Amp". In it's favor, it's cheap if you win an auction, because it's not worth any more than the $31 I paid.

 USG_

 

I agree that the connectors could break off if you are not careful, but I think when treated with care this little amp should last quite a while. I always leave the power supply plugged in as well as the rca cables, and all of my headphones have 1/8" plugs so I just leave the 1/4" adapter plugged into the amp at all times so there is very little stress on the board when plugging in.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys, Bravo audio has come up with V2 of the amp ! It now comes with a 6N10/ECC82 type Chinese tube. The price is now more sane compared to the 'Premium' V1 with the Electro Harmonics Gold tube.

Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier pre Bravo V2 - eBay (item 260541961646 end time Feb-21-10 08:49:19 PST)_

 

I see they are offering it with the 12AU7. Some don't consider the 12AU7 a very good tube for audio. Yes it is often used and has been for years but IMO there are better. I will go back to a good 6DJ8 for more life and a better top end, if the tube is at the right operating points. I have many, many 12AU7's and a few hundred 6DJ8 types and will take the 6DJ8. The 12AU7 has the gain of a 6SN7 and while it does sound "sweet' as they put it, that is because it is at the expense of loosing some of the top end and having a tube more laid back.


----------



## Shizdan

We have a problem here. After about 20-30 Minutes my Bravo amp starts adding distortion to the sound (Not crazy like) more on the lines of guitar distortion.

 When I go to my volume control panel and test the Left and Right channel the beep has added distortion. 

 So I plugged my HD650 directly to the soundcard (Xonar Essence STX W/ Upgraded Op Amps) and the distortion was not there.


----------



## jamato8

Did you try a different tube? Is it one channel or both? If both likely the power supply is acting up.


----------



## Shizdan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you try a different tube? Is it one channel or both? If both likely the power supply is acting up._

 

I'm letting it warm up now. It was kind of weird though, When I turned it on the the left turned came on the 5 seconds later the right kicked in. LEt me give it a few mins to warm up then I'll see If its both or just one channel.


----------



## Shizdan

Just seems to be the left channel.


----------



## jamato8

Do you have more than one tube? I would always have backups and besides, it is fun to hear the difference. The JJ 6DJ8's and there are a couple of other currently made 6922's that aren't bad. Also a red label Tungsram 6922 but there are many good tubes. I would always have extras. 

 If it is the stock tube I have read that they often have problems.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shizdan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just seems to be the left channel._

 

I had that problem with a couple tubes and changing the settings on the bias pots fixed it.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had that problem with a couple tubes and changing the settings on the bias pots fixed it._

 

Yes that might also be it. The pots used are cheap. I haven't seen preamps or amps use bias pots on the driver tube before. Sure it can be done, as seen, but a quality resistor and possibly a bypass capacitor is much better. It would be fun though to experiment with a multiple turn quality pot. But you should also know the current draw to set the tube to the correct point.


----------



## derek800

I had some problems with distortion coming out of the right channel when using both tubes I have. I adjusted one of the pots just a little bit and the distortion was gone, and it's still working fine with no distortion. I would suggest adjusting the pot for the left channel a little if you haven't tried that yet.


----------



## Shizdan

I have no clue what a pot is let alone know how to adjust it!....any help?


----------



## jamato8

6BZ7's are cheap and also a good tube. They preceded the 6DJ8 tube.

 There are two pots with a + in the top that you fit a small screw driver into so you can turn/adjust them. There are images somewhere here.


----------



## Shizdan

Ok I found them. Now what? How fat do I turn?


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shizdan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no clue what a pot is let alone know how to adjust it!....any help?_

 

First you need to carefully remove the top from the amp. Now get a small flathead screwdriver, I was told to tape up the sides with some sort of tape to prevent shorting something out if you bump it. The pots are the little yellow things that look like phillips screwhead's directly behind the gain/volume knob. Try adjusting one of them at a time while listening to music quietly. You barley have to turn them at all, just adjust one a little bit to figure out which channel it controls and then you can adjust it right back. I made a small adjustment (maybe about 1/12 of a turn to the right for mine) and the distortion was gone.


----------



## Shizdan

I have the top off. I'm using a phillips head (+). Now I will let it warm up for a few minutes then test it with the Window Volume Channel checker thing


----------



## Shizdan

Ok I turned them both so they are both pointing towards the top right hand corner. Do they control the volume of each channel?


----------



## jamato8

No, they are the bias for the tube. Bias is how the cathode is used, with current applied to it. This can all be measure but you have to know how to read a curve etc. I would just adjust very slowly and see if the distortion goes away and once it does, if it does, leave the pot there. Well I wouldn't do it that way but you can it seems to work for everyone.


----------



## Shizdan

Well I got the distortion to go away! But I want to get the best out of this amp so should I slowly turn the pots up until the distortion is heard again then bring it down just a tad?


----------



## 22B

I've been listening to my Matsu****a PCC88 for the past few day and I really like it. The mids are really smooth and the bass is punchy. The highs and mids are not as amazing as the pinched waist but better than the other 6922s I have. Norah Jones sounds so wonderful with this setup esp. with the pinched waist. I played Modern warfare 2 and the dolby surround is great with the Matsu****a. The soundstage is amazing and I can hear exactly where each sound is coming from. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I don't know why this amp is considered just as a novelty to some people. It sure sounds amazing with my QP85s. Will a $200 amp sound that much better?


----------



## jamato8

There is no reason with a good power supply the amp shouldn't sound good. It could sound as good as an amp costing many times more. Implementation is what is important and simple to get the most out of the parts is often what is best.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know why this amp is considered just as a novelty to some people. It sure sounds amazing with my QP85s. Will a $200 amp sound that much better? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Some folks are just self-righteous _curiosities_... that never defecate.

 Some of the tubes I have for my Indeed blow me away, with only a Zune as a source.

 If they can't appreciate the amp, it's their loss, not yours.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Some folks are just self-righteous curiosities... that never defecate.

 Some of the tubes I have for my Indeed blow me away, with only a Zune as a source.

 If they can't appreciate the amp, it's their loss, not yours._

 

And some folks think You can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 USG


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And some folks think You can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 USG_

 



 Simple is the basis for the single-ended triode amp movement. They measure bad but sound wonderful, have a minimum of parts and not an opamp in sight. The bravo while not a single ended triode is certainly a minimalist amp.

 This little amp sounds pretty darn good for a $50 amp. It is about as simple a cathode bias amp as you could make. Its weakness is the power supply (and weak jacks) but even with a $30 elpac its still a good deal. The Elpac WM080 linear is probably a good match for this amp, sort of in the same mid-fi league, although it might be a little light on current capacity at 1/3 amp. It's noise level is about 30X more than the TREAD PS though so if you have the DIY urge that would be a better choice.


----------



## jamato8

I may have to get one of these for the fun of it and couple it with one my my good power supplies. Since I already have them it doesn't matter that they cost 8 times as much. Also, the power supply is one of the most important items. If the power supply isn't right nothing else will or can be.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I may have to get one of these for the fun of it and couple it with one my my good power supplies. Since I already have them it doesn't matter that they cost 8 times as much. Also, the power supply is one of the most important items. If the power supply isn't right nothing else will or can be._

 

Sure and if you get bored with it give it to a friend who needs to start an expensive habit.


----------



## mhamel

What's the value on the volume pot? Is that a 10K? I can't make out the markings on mine, but it looks like it's marked "10" in some of the photos I've seen.

 Thanks,
 -Mike


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mhamel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the value on the volume pot? Is that a 10K? I can't make out the markings on mine, but it looks like it's marked "10" in some of the photos I've seen.

 Thanks,
 -Mike_

 

I think that's what mine is. The schematic says 10K-20K


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Simple is the basis for the single-ended triode amp movement. They measure bad but sound wonderful, have a minimum of parts and not an opamp in sight. The bravo while not a single ended triode is certainly a minimalist amp.

*This little amp sounds pretty darn good for a $50 amp*. It is about as simple a cathode bias amp as you could make. Its weakness is the power supply (and weak jacks) but even with a $30 elpac its still a good deal. The Elpac WM080 linear is probably a good match for this amp, sort of in the same mid-fi league, although it might be a little light on current capacity at 1/3 amp. It's noise level is about 30X more than the TREAD PS though so if you have the DIY urge that would be a better choice._

 

I would like to suggest that even with an upgraded tube and power supply, it's still pretty low-fi. 

 Better off with a Starving Student as a starter amp.

 USG


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would like to suggest that even with an upgraded tube and power supply, it's still pretty low-fi. 

 Better off with a Starving Student as a starter amp.

 USG_

 

Where can I buy a Starving Student? How much do they cost?


----------



## derek800

Does anyone have a model number of an elpac power supply that will work with this amp?


----------



## the search never ends

Just bought a starving student for a headamp.....sounds like crap!


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where can I buy a Starving Student? How much do they cost?_

 

Any of the DIY makers will make you one. But if it's tubes you want, I'd save for something like a basic Woo 3.

 USG


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the search never ends* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just bought a starving student for a headamp.....sounds like crap!_

 

That's strange, it's a pretty respected Pete Millet design.

 On the other hand, what are you comparing it to and what other components and software are in your audio chain?

 USG


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any of the DIY makers will make you one. But if it's tubes you want, I'd save for something like a basic Woo 3.

 USG_

 


 I'm just finishing up an M3 perhaps the Woo after that. They look very interesting.


----------



## the search never ends

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's strange, it's a pretty respected Pete Millet design.

 On the other hand, what are you comparing it to and what other components and software are in your audio chain?

 USG_

 

I was just making a joke as in I bought an actual "starving student"
 Wasn't meant to be offensive.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just finishing up an M3 perhaps the Woo after that. They look very interesting._

 

You're going to be pretty satisfied with your M^3 and for what it's worth, both my M^3s have relatively the same sound signature as my Woo3/Centron tube. This with 8610/627,637, 8065.

 USG


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're going to be pretty satisfied with your M^3 and for what it's worth, both my M^3s have relatively the same sound signature as my Woo3/Centron tube. This with 8610/627,637, 8065.

 USG_

 

I've got a box of op amps for it, 134, 8610, 627A, AD843. I can't remember if all of these are for the M^3, I was planning on using the 8610s. I just need to put it in an enclosure which is always the hardest part for me.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got a box of op amps for it, 134, 8610, 627A, AD843. I can't remember if all of these are for the M^3, I was planning on using the 8610s. I just need to put it in an enclosure which is always the hardest part for me._

 

8610s are the default opamps so it's probably a good choice. Why don't you put it in a cardboard box for the time being and fire it up, it sounds great.

 USG


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_8610s are the default opamps so it's probably a good choice. Why don't you put it in a cardboard box for the time being and fire it up, it sounds great.

 USG_

 

Good suggestion I'll do that. I've had the parts for a long time and I finally put the M^3 and the STEPS boards together. I had the parts for so long that I bought new electrolytics out of fear that they had sat too long.


----------



## brendon

Could anyone suggest a decent PSU for this amp, preferably from ebay ? Hiflight gave me a link to a liner switching PSU but the shipping cost was more than the cost of the amp !

 So please post some more suggestions. Thanks.


----------



## 22B

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could anyone suggest a decent PSU for this amp, preferably from ebay ? Hiflight gave me a link to a liner switching PSU but the shipping cost was more than the cost of the amp !

 So please post some more suggestions. Thanks._

 

I bought a Sola Linear PSU on Ebay for 27. I have not used it yet. I am waiting to get my DC jack and power cord. Here is another one. SOLA REGULATED POWER SUPPLY OUTPUT SLS-24-024T NIB - eBay (item 150407424299 end time Jan-28-10 05:10:32 PST)


----------



## 4nradio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes that might also be it. The pots used are cheap. I haven't seen preamps or amps use bias pots on the driver tube before. Sure it can be done, as seen, but a quality resistor and possibly a bypass capacitor is much better. It would be fun though to experiment with a multiple turn quality pot. But you should also know the current draw to set the tube to the correct point._

 

I tried a pair of multi-turn CERMET pots a couple of weeks ago. They worked fine, but I didn't like the looks of the crazy angle at which I needed to install them (the pots I found locally weren't the best arrangement of leads for the Bravo's PCB). The pots worked well but I ended up reinstalling the stock (cheapo) pots.

 I may track down some multi-turn pots with pinouts more appropriate to the board, so that the modification doesn't look so homebrew.

 Guy


----------



## 4nradio

Has anyone else tried battery power for the Bravo? I've used two 8 amp, 12V gel cells in series and they sound great. These are the size and type of batteries commonly used in backup security lighting systems in stores. I have been able to pick up perfectly serviceable ones for free, when they are swapped out with new ones on a maintenance schedule.

 I have yet to try a capacitor across the battery output, as recommended here: Match Made in Heaven: Batteries and Non-OS DACs Evidently batteries can exhibit significant noise spikes with a dynamic load such as music reproduction..notice the cyan (light blue) trace in the chart at this URL.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *4nradio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone else tried battery power for the Bravo? I've used two 8 amp, 12V gel cells in series and they sound great. These are the size and type of batteries commonly used in backup security lighting systems in stores. I have been able to pick up perfectly serviceable ones for free, when they are swapped out with new ones on a maintenance schedule.

 I have yet to try a capacitor across the battery output, as recommended here: Match Made in Heaven: Batteries and Non-OS DACs Evidently batteries can exhibit significant noise spikes with a dynamic load such as music reproduction..notice the cyan (light blue) trace in the chart at this URL._

 

Good point. I thought batteries were nearly perfect (and in some cases are). This article about power supplies for headphone amps probably has all many of us need to know including a discussion of battery supplies, linear and switching supplies. 

Op-Amp Power Supply Quality Considerations


----------



## EdiblePwncakes

I have a very noob question: I recently ordered this amp and it's in the mail, but I'm wondering how can I hook it up to my sound card in my PC. Would just a standard 3.5mm male to male cable work? That's what I assume but I'm really not sure.


----------



## goebish

This amp have got a 3.5mm jack and 2xRCA as inputs, your cable is OK.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree, I found a Sylvania 6DJ8 tube on ebay for around $8 shipped and it sounds great with this amp, and my power supply works fine. This may not be the best amp out there, but I think it's a pretty good sounding starter tube amp. It's not meant to be a great headphone amp, but at its price point it works well._

 

Since you got yours from him, he raised his tube price to 3.50. I got 3 (2 Sylvs and a Philips) from him at 3.50. After I got mine, he raised his shipping price to 6.00.

 It's still a decent deal, since the tubes are pretty good sounding 6dj8s with strong signals. One of the Sylvs has a great 3D stage with strong bass and a slightly forward mid presentation. Really good for headphones.

 Three good tubes for $16.50 shipped is not bad at all. Especially when you're listening to a _curiosity_.


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Three good tubes for $16.50 shipped is not bad at all. Especially when you're listening to a curiosity. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL. Exactly my thoughts......


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since you got yours from him, he raised his tube price to 3.50. I got 3 (2 Sylvs and a Philips) from him at 3.50. After I got mine, he raised his shipping price to 6.00.

 It's still a decent deal, since the tubes are pretty good sounding 6dj8s with strong signals. One of the Sylvs has a great 3D stage with strong bass and a slightly forward mid presentation. Really good for headphones.

 Three good tubes for $16.50 shipped is not bad at all. Especially when you're listening to a curiosity. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Is that what the new version of the Bravo is called?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is that what the new version of the Bravo is called?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ha! My Indeed is about to become visually curious in a day or so. I'm getting a 35V 10KuF KW for a PS cap. If I can get it in the general area of the current cap, it should be stupendous for bass production. It may be the largest PS cap on any of these small amps...

 In any event, my Indeed and all of my awesome little tubes, will end up in my _curio_ cabinet one day.


----------



## derek800

Yea, I'm listening to my little "curiosity" right now and it's sounding pretty good to me.


----------



## frankiezappo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_



_

 

Hi Gurusan, i noticed you changed little orange capacitors. Can i ask you what capacitance you used? I have two Bravos so i'd like to try some experiment.


----------



## clarinetman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Helmore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2) How durable is the on/off switch? I think I'll be using that switch a lot and it thus has to be able to withstand the abuse it will get._

 


 Bad, bad, bad. I had to replace mine after less than a month of use, as it was intermittent. Still though, the switch was really cheap, only $1.29 or so, and I just replaced it.


----------



## derek800

I haven't had any problems with my power switch as of yet, but that's most likely because I try not to use it very much. I generally just leave the power switch in the on position and plug and unplug the amp when I'm using or finished with the amp.


----------



## gurusan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *frankiezappo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Gurusan, i noticed you changed little orange capacitors. Can i ask you what capacitance you used? I have two Bravos so i'd like to try some experiment._

 

You mean the small cap by the dc input? I used a .22uF Wima MKP


----------



## Judge Buff

I installed a 35V 10KuF KW cap on the PS. It dwarfs the tube. Makes sweet music, though. I'll get a photo posted tonight/tomorrow. It looks like a water tower...


----------



## mhamel

I had picked up one of the Sola 24V/2.4A linear power supplies as well.. came in today. I still need to pick up an enclosure for it and some connectors/cables, but I've got it wired up on my bench right now to test it out.

 I notice a few things immediately. No noise, for one. I had picked up a 2A switching supply from Ebay prior to this, and it was noisy, with occasional static, interference from my computers, etc. That's now gone with the Sola.

 Even with the cheap 2A switcher, I had noticed a definite and major improvement in the low frequency extension from the amp. To my ears, the new PS furthers that, and combined with the lack of noise, really helps things overall.

 I currently have a 1968 Amperex 7308 tube in it, and it sounds great. The tube still has some breaking-in to go, but for the cost and the fun of modding it, I couldn't be happier.

 Next up will be cap upgrades, new trimpots and possibly a re-casing to accommodate the larger power supply and output caps.

 -Mike 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *22B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought a Sola Linear PSU on Ebay for 27. I have not used it yet. I am waiting to get my DC jack and power cord. Here is another one. SOLA REGULATED POWER SUPPLY OUTPUT SLS-24-024T NIB - eBay (item 150407424299 end time Jan-28-10 05:10:32 PST)_


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Especially when you're listening to a curiosity. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_

 

LOL JB.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's OK that you guys want to take it apart and upgrade the parts, and it looks like it would be a lot of fun to do that, but as an amplifier, if it's not a 'curiosity', what is it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## derek800

I will still hold my ground and say for the $50 I spent on this, this amp is a nice starter amp. The stock tube didn't sound great but with a cheap Sylvania 6dj8 in it I can notice a pretty huge difference in clarity and "fullness of sound" in my HD 238's. I'm sure I will upgrade later, but for now I'm very happy with the sound I'm getting from this amp.


----------



## brendon

Yes I too concur that it sounds pretty decent for the price. I am sure it will beat any amplifier upto $100 easily. Though it does need an additional tube to sound its best.


----------



## BassThor

Sniffing around, looking for something cheap to power a pair of Beyer DT 880's (250ohm), I stumbled upon this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So if anyone have tried a similar headphone with this thing; is it up for the job of powering a 250ohm pair of headphones?


----------



## gurusan

well it powers my 300 ohm HD 580s wonderfully


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL JB.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's OK that you guys want to take it apart and upgrade the parts, and it looks like it would be a lot of fun to do that, but as an amplifier, if it's not a 'curiosity', what is it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

The design has apparently been around for a while. One poster early in the Indeed thread says that its been around for a "1000 years" and it's pretty well attributed to a Korean named Sijosae. He has a gallery of his designs/projects here.

 I don't see it as a _curiosity_ at all, especially given that I *do* have an awesome little amp in an Altoids tin, that all the faculty and students at my high school really consider as "curious." Sijosae has one design with a tube in a tin that I do think is a *curiosity* since it supposed to be portable.

 The next reason that I don't consider it as a curiosity is the fact that it sounds so good. The fact that it is tiny, simple and "flimsy" as you call it, doesn't negate that it is apparently a very effective little amp with decent sonic capabilities. Especially for the $42 plus shipping that I paid for it. Off of the shelf with no mods, mine appreciated and made good use of various 6dj8 equivalents that revised and improved the sound characteristics. There have been moments that I have been amazed by the quality and beauty of the music coming from a Zune, a Blackberry and an iPhone through this flimsy little thing. Will it survive being dropped? Hell, no! But neither will any other larger amp. Does the power switch suck? Like a Hoover, but it can be replaced when necessary. Does that make it a curiosity? Nope, unless you consider real potential for maintenance by the user as curious (There is a great discussion that we could get into...).

 There are some component quality issues between the Indeed and the Bravo that I think may make the Indeed a better purchase. My power supply seems to be of higher quality (quieter anyway) and it's 2A. Dale resistors are top-notch and nothing has broken on mine to date (knock on wood). The PCB has survived even my ham-fisted component-removal and soldering techniques. Each component upgrade has been beneficial. The upgrades to higher quality, lower capacitance output caps and better trim pots were easy to do and definitely contributed to smoother and more lush music. The latest upgrade to a huge PS filter cap has not only made the bass more full and deep, but I hear the entire soundstage as more expansive and clean. I still must modify the acrylic sheet to accommodate this monster cap. The only other mods I can foresee will be the power switch and in/out jacks when I need to.

 The final reason I don't consider it a curiosity is that a curiosity isn't _*used*_. A curiosity is looked at and placed back on the shelf. I use this, as do a lot of others, everyday. While I do admire it, it's because of what it produces, not how it looks. Pictures to come...


----------



## Judge Buff

I think you can tell my little mods from these three perspectives:


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you can tell my little mods from these three perspectives:_

 

JB can you tell a big difference in overall sound quality from your mod's? The only thing I have done so far is replace the tube, and I'm pretty happy with the amp, just wondering how large the improvement is so far.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL JB.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It's OK that you guys want to take it apart and upgrade the parts, and it looks like it would be a lot of fun to do that, but as an amplifier, if it's not a 'curiosity', what is it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

Well thanks to a little encouragement from Upstateguy I finally got working on the M^3, at least I finished up the STEPS power supply today. Now tomorrow I'll get the M^3 in a temporary box and give it a go. 

 In the mean time I hooked the STEPS up to the Bravo and it is dead quiet with no signal and fairly high volume. Bass seems to have more authority. This is the way to go for a power supply although the STEPS is no longer available there is a replacement on TANGENTS site.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The design has apparently been around for a while. One poster early in the Indeed thread says that its been around for a "1000 years" and it's pretty well attributed to a Korean named Sijosae. He has a gallery of his designs/projects here.

 I don't see it as a curiosity at all, especially given that I *do* have an awesome little amp in an Altoids tin, that all the faculty and students at my high school really consider as "curious." Sijosae has one design with a tube in a tin that I do think is a *curiosity* since it supposed to be portable.

 The next reason that I don't consider it as a curiosity is the fact that it sounds so good. The fact that it is tiny, simple and "flimsy" as you call it, doesn't negate that it is apparently a very effective little amp with decent sonic capabilities. Especially for the $42 plus shipping that I paid for it. Off of the shelf with no mods, mine appreciated and made good use of various 6dj8 equivalents that revised and improved the sound characteristics. There have been moments that I have been amazed by the quality and beauty of the music coming from a Zune, a Blackberry and an iPhone through this flimsy little thing. Will it survive being dropped? Hell, no! But neither will any other larger amp. Does the power switch suck? Like a Hoover, but it can be replaced when necessary. Does that make it a curiosity? Nope, unless you consider real potential for maintenance by the user as curious (There is a great discussion that we could get into...).

 There are some component quality issues between the Indeed and the Bravo that I think may make the Indeed a better purchase. My power supply seems to be of higher quality (quieter anyway) and it's 2A. Dale resistors are top-notch and nothing has broken on mine to date (knock on wood). The PCB has survived even my ham-fisted component-removal and soldering techniques. Each component upgrade has been beneficial. The upgrades to higher quality, lower capacitance output caps and better trim pots were easy to do and definitely contributed to smoother and more lush music. The latest upgrade to a huge PS filter cap has not only made the bass more full and deep, but I hear the entire soundstage as more expansive and clean. I still must modify the acrylic sheet to accommodate this monster cap. The only other mods I can foresee will be the power switch and in/out jacks when I need to.

 The final reason I don't consider it a curiosity is that a curiosity isn't *used*. *A curiosity is looked at and placed back on the shelf. *I use this, as do a lot of others, everyday. While I do admire it, it's because of what it produces, not how it looks. Pictures to come..._

 

LOL, OK, you win 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Apparently, one man's curiosity is another man's serious amp.

 I'm aware of the circuit origins, but this is how I *use* mine..... 






 I keep it in a plastic bag in a drawer. If I want to show someone the funky little curiosity I found on e-bay, I take it out, show it, and then put it back in the drawer. 

 USG


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_JB can you tell a big difference in overall sound quality from your mod's? The only thing I have done so far is replace the tube, and I'm pretty happy with the amp, just wondering how large the improvement is so far._

 

After you read this little post, read my last post in the Indeed thread and the post on the page before this. 

 The two caps I changed out with 16V 470uF Silmic IIs changed the overall sound almost as much as changing out the stock tube with a good 6922 replacement. It was that profound... especially on the high end in regards to smoothness. The good thing is that it carries over from tube to tube the same way. Only 10 minutes per cap and $5 for both caps plus shipping.

 The second thing I did was to change the PS filter cap to a 4700uF which refined the sound more by broadening the low end. I changed it again to the huge 10k on the premise that more capacitance acts as a reservoir and further smooths and refines the sound. It also improves bass by a large margin... incredible, deep, controlled and expansive bass for bass responsive tubes and just great bass improvement in tubes that are more neutral on the low end like my Telefunken PCC88. The entire soundstage sounds wider, broader and cleaner. I would at least use a 6800uF (as the Bravo does) if you upgrade. The 10K cap was a pain as the leads were huge and I had to carefully get them in the holes, one being shared with the led lead that I ended-up bridging carefully with solder. Still only 30 mins and $5 plus shipping. The 4700 was noticeable for improving the sound, but the 10K was a more profound improvement than the two Silmic IIs and they were huge improvements. 

 I changed the trim pots out because mine just plain sucked. I roll tubes multiple times a day, sometimes, and the new pots are very easy to adjust. Just $3 for both plus shipping, and 15 mins of my time.

 If your headphones that you listen to with the amp cost more than $100, you will find the mods worthwhile. I liked my amp before, just rolling tubes. I like it much more now and rolling tubes is better. Glad I did it...

 I do think there's a 14K cap that I can fit in that gap...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I keep it in a plastic bag in a drawer. If I want to show someone the funky little curiosity I found on e-bay, I take it out, show it, and then put it back in the drawer. 

 USG_

 

That's just sad... and wrong, usg. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My offer to buy still stands. I could do some real testing then.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After you read this little post, read my last post in the Indeed thread and the post on the page before this. 

 The two caps I changed out with 16V 470uF Silmic IIs changed the overall sound almost as much as changing out the stock tube with a good 6922 replacement. It was that profound... especially on the high end in regards to smoothness. The good thing is that it carries over from tube to tube the same way. Only 10 minutes per cap and $5 for both caps plus shipping.

 The second thing I did was to change the PS filter cap to a 4700uF which refined the sound more by broadening the low end. I changed it again to the huge 10k on the premise that more capacitance acts as a reservoir and further smooths and refines the sound. It also improves bass by a large margin... incredible, deep, controlled and expansive bass for bass responsive tubes and just great bass improvement in tubes that are more neutral on the low end like my Telefunken PCC88. The entire soundstage sounds wider, broader and cleaner. I would at least use a 6800uF (as the Bravo does) if you upgrade. The 10K cap was a pain as the leads were huge and I had to carefully get them in the holes, one being shared with the led lead that I ended-up bridging carefully with solder. Still only 30 mins and $5 plus shipping. The 4700 was noticeable for improving the sound, but the 10K was a more profound improvement than the two Silmic IIs and they were huge improvements. 

 I changed the trim pots out because mine just plain sucked. I roll tubes multiple times a day, sometimes, and the new pots are very easy to adjust. Just $3 for both plus shipping, and 15 mins of my time.

 If your headphones that you listen to with the amp cost more than $100, you will find the mods worthwhile. I liked my amp before, just rolling tubes. I like it much more now and rolling tubes is better. Glad I did it...

 I do think there's a 14K cap that I can fit in that gap... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Be careful about going too far with capacitance you'll nuke your power supply. A huge cap can look like a dead short on the supply till it charges.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's just sad... and wrong, usg. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My offer to buy still stands. I could do some real testing then._

 

It's not sad JB, or wrong.

 I have 6 other headphone amps. Why do I want to bother with the Bravo? I have no interest in upgrading its components (beyond getting it to work). To me, it's just a curiosity I found on e-bay. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's not sad JB, or wrong.

 I have 6 other headphone amps. Why do I want to bother with the Bravo? I have no interest in upgrading its components (beyond getting it to work). To me, it's just a curiosity I found on e-bay. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

I'm not quite sure why you would buy the Bravo if you have 6 other headphone amps and had no intention of using it.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derek800* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not quite sure why you would buy the Bravo if you have 6 other headphone amps and had no intention of using it._

 

It's a curio.

 USG


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a curio.

 USG_

 

this is a curio and i have one of these too


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this is a curio and i have one of these too_

 

Very Cool....

 I'll see your AR and raise you a 681EEE


----------



## acvtre

The bravo amp v2 is on the way. Does anybody matched a bravo amp with a sennheiser headphone such as hd595 or hd580/600?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *acvtre* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bravo amp v2 is on the way. Does anybody matched a bravo amp with a sennheiser headphone such as hd595 or hd580/600?_

 

Yeah, there are several of those headphone users in this thread, but no one has posted anything about V2 yet, that I can remember. Maybe you can be the 1st?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Be careful about going too far with capacitance you'll nuke your power supply. A huge cap can look like a dead short on the supply till it charges._

 

Thanks! I never even considered that possibility, but it does make sense. I guess that I've hit a sweet spot then with this cute _curiosity_.

 I have a complete Mini^3, sitting in several boxes in my shop area, that I quit on due to my inability to get the 1st opamp on the pcb. I guess that I'll try to find someone to do that...


----------



## acvtre

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, there are several of those headphone users in this thread, but no one has posted anything about V2 yet, that I can remember. Maybe you can be the 1st?_

 

I don't have that headphones but I was wondering how behave that headphones with the bravo amp, 1sr, 2nd or whatever.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *acvtre* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bravo amp v2 is on the way. Does anybody matched a bravo amp with a sennheiser headphone such as hd595 or hd580/600?_

 

I tried it with my HD650s and DT880s when I first got it. 

 Within its parameters, as a conversation piece, it worked quite well. 

 What you will find, and I think even JB will agree with me, is a surprising amount of sound, relative to its size and construction.

 USG


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried it with my HD650s and DT880s when I first got it. 

 Within its parameters, as a conversation piece, it worked quite well. 

 What you will find, and I think even JB will agree with me, is a surprising amount of sound, relative to its size and construction.

 USG_

 

My Indeed is a known _curiosity_ and I can truly speak about it. I even have _curious_ pictures of it around here somewhere.

 I don't have any conversation pieces, though I do know of an upstate guy that has one in a seldom-opened drawer. I *have* read that those Bravo conversation pieces (V1 anyway) can drive headphones to "insane" volumes, IIRC.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 My Indeed is a known curiosity and I can truly speak about it. I even have curious pictures of it around here somewhere.

 I don't have any conversation pieces, though I do know of an upstate guy that has one in a seldom-opened drawer. I *have* read that those Bravo conversation pieces (V1 anyway) can drive headphones to "insane" volumes, IIRC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But since your "Indeed is a *known *_curiosity_" would you agree that it has way too much gain?

 USG


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But since your "Indeed is a *known *curiosity" would you agree that it has way too much gain?

 USG_

 

Since I am using mine from the headphone out jack on my Zune/iPhone, I usually listen with the knob @ 12 to 2, with source volume at moderate levels (50% or so). I've never used the amp with line out levels.

 The gain is very good for the way I use the amp and my SRH440s.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since I am using mine from the headphone out jack on my Zune/iPhone, I usually listen with the knob @ 12 to 2, with source volume at moderate levels (50% or so). *I've never used the amp with line out levels.*

 The gain is very good for the way I use the amp and my SRH440s._

 

I probably shouldn't suggest this, but hey, give it a listen from a CD source or even better a computer rig and DAC..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think you will be surprised how much better it can sound, (for a conversation piece, that is). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## Joe Presto

As I had feared, the Bravo is too powerful for my Grado's, so I want to build an attenuator; I can figure it out for the most part, but don't know what value potentiometer I should choose, any advice?


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I probably shouldn't suggest this, but hey, give it a listen from a CD source or even better a computer rig and DAC..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think you will be surprised how much better it can sound, (for a conversation piece, that is). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

I used my bravo with a iphone and a russ andrews LOD, sounded pretty good, then tried my ps3 and caiman DAC as source. WOW what a difference they made, I think no amount of tube rolling will ever sound as good as a source upgrade.


----------



## acvtre

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joe Presto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I had feared, the Bravo is too powerful for my Grado's, so I want to build an attenuator; I can figure it out for the most part, but don't know what value potentiometer I should choose, any advice?_

 

Maybe it's better if you use an impedance adaptor for the headphones.


----------



## BassThor

Quick question; I just won a bravo v2 on ebay auction, and I want to buy a better tube for it as well. The J6D *something something* is what I should be looking for? 
 Thanks!


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BassThor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quick question; I just won a bravo v2 on ebay auction, and I want to buy a better tube for it as well. The J6D *something something* is what I should be looking for? 
 Thanks!_

 

No the 6dj8's are for the V1, V1 deluxe, you want a 12AU7 for V2


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BassThor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quick question; I just won a bravo v2 on ebay auction, and I want to buy a better tube for it as well. The J6D *something something* is what I should be looking for? 
 Thanks!_

 

Check this out also, will help you decide which tubes to get

12AU7 Tubes in Stock

 Also I just noticed Bravo Audio V2's no longer have a buy it now, so they should be had for cheaper.


----------



## john57

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *acvtre* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe it's better if you use an impedance adaptor for the headphones._

 

No from what I understand the user want is a way to lower the gain using a higher resistance pot for the volume control should do the trick. Changing the impedance could effect the SQ.


----------



## BassThor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check this out also, will help you decide which tubes to get

12AU7 Tubes in Stock

 Also I just noticed Bravo Audio V2's no longer have a buy it now, so they should be had for cheaper._

 

Thanks, ordered a pair of RCA 12AU7. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are always four 24 hour long auctions for bravo v2 amp, the last few days they have ended with a bid of of ~45$. (Yes I've been stalking them for about a week).


----------



## derek800

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BassThor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, ordered a pair of RCA 12AU7. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are always four 24 hour long auctions for bravo v2 amp, the last few days they have ended with a bid of of ~45$. (Yes I've been stalking them for about a week)._

 

If you don't mind waiting a little bit to get a cheaper price you can do what I did and use esnipe.com or some other auction sniper tool. I just created a bid group and set the price I wanted to get it for and added a bunch of bravo auctions (there were 8 available at the time) and with 6 seconds left in the auction is throws your bid in. If you win one of the auctions then all of the others in the bid group are canceled, I ended up winning my auction after 2 days.


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *acvtre* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe it's better if you use an impedance adaptor for the headphones._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *john57* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No from what I understand the user want is a way to lower the gain using a higher resistance pot for the volume control should do the trick. Changing the impedance could effect the SQ._

 

Can I switch out the ALPS pot for a higher resistance pot? if so, any advice on what value to switch it with?

 Edit: I originally planned on putting the pot between the amp and the headphones, however what John suggests would be far more elegant.


----------



## tempzx

Quote:


 I got one of these back in October and I never really messed with it (_ac/dc adapter arrived dead and had to wait another 2 weeks before I could even use it_). For some reason there's a *LOUD* buzzing noise when the knob is anywhere passed 9 o'clock. Tried different outlets and messed with the pots etc.. nothing got rid of it. Anyone know what would be causing this buzzing noise? Could it be the tube? I've also heard faint clicking/popping noises every now and then coming from the amp itself.

 Anything would be helpful. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 

*Edit:* Ended up finding a bad solder joint while checking it out in front of my computer screen.. Figures I can't find the soldering iron when I need it.


----------



## oohms

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joe Presto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can I switch out the ALPS pot for a higher resistance pot? if so, any advice on what value to switch it with?

 Edit: I originally planned on putting the pot between the amp and the headphones, however what John suggests would be far more elegant._

 

Or you could put a 50-100k resistor in series between the line inputs and the volume pot pins they connect to
 (Or make a line input cable with these resistors in it)


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oohms* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or you could put a 50-100k resistor in series between the line inputs and the volume pot pins they connect to
 (Or make a line input cable with these resistors in it)_

 

You are suggesting that I add resistance to the amp input, so between source and amp, or between amp input and volume pot? I am confused now, and really looking for the easiest way to get my Grado's to a listenable level.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joe Presto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are suggesting that I add resistance to the amp input, so between source and amp, or between amp input and volume pot? I am confused now, and really looking for the easiest way to get my Grado's to a listenable level._

 

I don't think that you can add resistance to the input to reduce the gain. The standard method is called an L-Pad. (no relation to he iPad). The L-pad goes on the output.

 Here's an article on lPads. You should be able to make one with a couple resistors rather than buying one for $20. 

Uneeda Audio - Build your own attenuator pads


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think that you can add resistance to the input to reduce the gain. The standard method is called an L-Pad. (no relation to he iPad). The L-pad goes on the output.

 Here's an article on lPads. You should be able to make one with a couple resistors rather than buying one for $20. 

Uneeda Audio - Build your own attenuator pads_

 

Thanks for the link, I'll plough through the article tonight and see if I can build it!


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joe Presto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the link, I'll plough through the article tonight and see if I can build it!_

 

Here's a schematic that the Bravo amp was based on. Component values may be different.

 That article I posted is too difficult to deal with. Here's an L-pad calculator. http://amps.zugster.net/articles/attenuation

 if you input the impedance of your Grados (SR325is are 32 ohms) and 10 dB of attenuation (about half as loud) in the calculator it will give you some values for an L-pad that will be a starting point. good luck


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a schematic that the Bravo amp was based on. Component values may be different.

 That article I posted is too difficult to deal with. Here's an L-pad calculator. Adam's Amplifiers: Attenuation

 if you input the impedance of your Grados (SR325is are 32 ohms) and 10 dB of attenuation (about half as loud) in the calculator it will give you some values for an L-pad that will be a starting point. good luck_

 

Cheers CPL593H, I did some digging and found the calculator, I was trying to find out how much attenuation I needed, so thanks for your suggestion. I'll build a rudimentary one first and make one out of proper components if it works out.

 I looked up that schematic earlier, but couldn't make heads nor tails of it, I was trying to determine if the volume pot is the last component the signal goes through before the headphone out, in which case might it be possible to switch the volume pot?


----------



## dafoomie

Would you guys say that these are unsuitable for Grados out of the box?


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joe Presto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cheers CPL593H, I did some digging and found the calculator, I was trying to find out how much attenuation I needed, so thanks for your suggestion. I'll build a rudimentary one first and make one out of proper components if it works out.

 I looked up that schematic earlier, but couldn't make heads nor tails of it, I was trying to determine if the volume pot is the last component the signal goes through before the headphone out, in which case might it be possible to switch the volume pot?_

 

if you look at the schematic on the left (not the actual measured data one) you see Input on the left side and Output on the right side.

 The input goes into the volume control pot (yellow 10K-20K) then connects to the grid (g) on the tube.

 The output on the right comes out of the IRF610 MOSFET output transistor through the 1000uF capacitor to the 47 ohm resistor. The LM317 is a voltage regulator for the tube heater. 

 That strange looking stuff in the upper left (couple overlapping circles) is a transistor current source.

 Finally there is a yellow resistor with an arrow through it 2.2K, that's the cathode bias pot. This is the pot you adjust to get 16-17v on the plate (labeled a on the tube)

 This is one of the two channels of the amp.


----------



## oohms

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a resistive attenuator at the output change the sound characteristics? (since the headphones are an inductive load)


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dafoomie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you guys say that these are unsuitable for Grados out of the box?_

 

I would say so. The channels on mine are imbalanced at low volume, once I turn it up far enough to have them balance, I find that the volume is just a bit above comforatable listening level, tried with 60, MS-1i and 325i. YMMV


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oohms* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a resistive attenuator at the output change the sound characteristics? (since the headphones are an inductive load)_

 

you're right. how much it colors the sound depends on too many things to calculate, the headphones are reactive and nonlinear as is the amp. Just have to try it and see how it works. Professional audio uses L-Pads, T-Pads all the time.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_8610s are the default opamps so it's probably a good choice. Why don't you put it in a cardboard box for the time being and fire it up, it sounds great.

 USG_

 

Well a small USPS priority mail box made a perfect size case for the M^3 and it sounds amazing. Put the OPA627s in it. Now waiting for the replacement K702's. Thanks for the box suggestion.


----------



## oohms

The volume control essentially forms an L pad at the input, so by adding a resistor there would preserve the sound characteristics of the amp better.. but the setup would be more prone to noise, than if you attenuate at the output.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oohms* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The volume control essentially forms an L pad at the input, so by adding a resistor there would preserve the sound characteristics of the amp better.. but the setup would be more prone to noise, than if you attenuate at the output._

 

that could work too. I wouldn't hurt to try, especially if the results no the output don't sound good. That is done in audio for example when a line level signal needs to be reduced to microphone level - and a 20 or 40 db pad might be used on the input. But like you say you are taking a low level signal and making it even lower which can really impact the signal to noise level in the system.


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oohms* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The volume control essentially forms an L pad at the input, so by adding a resistor there would preserve the sound characteristics of the amp better.. but the setup would be more prone to noise, than if you attenuate at the output._

 

I have the parts I need for an L-pad, depending on the results I'll look into your suggestion.


----------



## brendon

Hi, I have the opportunity to choose between the following tubes. Please suggest which of them are good -

 Mullard Made in Great Britain tube Factory Code starts from 'B',*
 manufactured in Mullard Blackburn factory**Rs.1500 each (only 3 in stock)

 Philips made in Holland tubes, Factory code starting with a right-angled triangle*
 made in Philips Heerlen plant Rs. 1250 each

 BEL GOLD PIN E88CC special quality ECC88(new in box) * * * * Rs. 850 each

 BEL ECC88 (new in box) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Rs. 500 each

 Philips Miniwatt ECC88 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Rs.750 each


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, I have the opportunity to choose between the following tubes. Please suggest which of them are good -

 Mullard Made in Great Britain tube Factory Code starts from 'B',*
 manufactured in Mullard Blackburn factory**Rs.1500 each (only 3 in stock)

 Philips made in Holland tubes, Factory code starting with a right-angled triangle*
 made in Philips Heerlen plant Rs. 1250 each

 BEL GOLD PIN E88CC special quality ECC88(new in box) * * * * Rs. 850 each

 BEL ECC88 (new in box) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Rs. 500 each

 Philips Miniwatt ECC88 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Rs.750 each_

 

I don't know what BEL is. The Phillips Miniwatt ECC88 is probably a Heerlen Holland tube also so it looks like the best deal. I have Phillips and Mullards and they sound the same to me. Both are great.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, I have the opportunity to choose between the following tubes. Please suggest which of them are good -

 Mullard Made in Great Britain tube Factory Code starts from 'B',*
 manufactured in Mullard Blackburn factory**Rs.1500 each (only 3 in stock)

 Philips made in Holland tubes, Factory code starting with a right-angled triangle*
 made in Philips Heerlen plant Rs. 1250 each

 BEL GOLD PIN E88CC special quality ECC88(new in box) * * * * Rs. 850 each

 BEL ECC88 (new in box) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Rs. 500 each

 Philips Miniwatt ECC88 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Rs.750 each_

 

I'd have to take a chance on the Miniwatt for half the price of a Mully (If you can get any tube data that is... My guess is that it is only emitting at 60% or so or has some real mismatched triodes.). If the data appears mismatched, don't waste your money.

 And not to contradict my friend CPL593H, but I find Mullys to be typically warmer and more "liquid" than Heerlen Philipses (Amperex's parent company). I find the Holland tubes to be cleaner and more precise than Mullys. If the Mully is an A Frame, though, it will sound a lot like a Philips or Amperex A Frame. Both companies have awesome tube families and typically sound amazing, but as with any tubes, you want the triodes to be close to each in emissions - within 5% hopefully.

*EDIT:* If Rs stands for Indian rupees, the Miniwatt is about $17 USD a real decent price for a good tube. If the tube is good, snap it up!! That makes that Mully about $35 USD, which I consider pretty expensive and the Heerlen Philips about $27 USD, still pricey but a better deal than the Mully. My advice is to haggle, if possible. I'd try to reduce the price by at least 250 for each.


----------



## brendon

Yes INR stands for Indian rupees. Sorry for forgetting to mention that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks Judge Buff and CPL593H for your helpful comments.

 I will order the Miniwatt as per your suggestions and ill try the Philips Holland tube as it should be a nice neutral tube.

 The pricing may seem high to you guys but this shop is probably the ONLY shop that sells tubes in the whole of India ! So its much cheaper than if I import the tubes.


----------



## enemigo

I've tried two different tubes on my Bravo amp and can't get them to work properly. The stock 6N11 tube works just fine but having gotten a glimpse of what other tubes can do, I want to replace it.

 The first tube I bought was the Brimar CV2492 (~$15). It sounded far better, but there was a lot of background noise created by the amp (the pot did not affect the noise level). ALso the amp got extremely microphonic, picking up movement on my desk, like putting down my coffe cup. I realised the tube wasn't properly positioned in it's socket, so I pushed a fraction of an inch on one side. After that microphonics was gone, as was the left channel!. Pushing the tube sideways resulted in loud crackeling noises, mostly in the left channel, and microphonics returned. When I found a decent position for the tube I soon found the bass was wrong. It sounded like the amp wasn't getting enough current, the bass was breaking up badly even on low listening leves. So I assumed the tube was busted.

 Today I got the RF-shielded GE 6DJ8 (~$27). Installed it, turned on the amp for a few minutes and tried it. No sound on the left channel, moving it about gave the same result as with the Brimar tube. Also, the GE tube heated up the heat sinks far more than the other tubes. So this one isn't working either.

 I put back the stock 6N11 tube and the amp is working fine again.

 Why? Is anything wrong with the amp? If I'm having bad luck with my tubes, could someone recommend a tube that definitely will work? Must be under $31 excl shipping and preferably RF-shileded.

 Thanks
 Knut


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *enemigo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've tried two different tubes on my Bravo amp and can't get them to work properly. The stock 6N11 tube works just fine but having gotten a glimpse of what other tubes can do, I want to replace it.

 The first tube I bought was the Brimar CV2492 (~$15). It sounded far better, but there was a lot of background noise created by the amp (the pot did not affect the noise level). ALso the amp got extremely microphonic, picking up movement on my desk, like putting down my coffe cup. I realised the tube wasn't properly positioned in it's socket, so I pushed a fraction of an inch on one side. After that microphonics was gone, as was the left channel!. Pushing the tube sideways resulted in loud crackeling noises, mostly in the left channel, and microphonics returned. When I found a decent position for the tube I soon found the bass was wrong. It sounded like the amp wasn't getting enough current, the bass was breaking up badly even on low listening leves. So I assumed the tube was busted.

 Today I got the RF-shielded GE 6DJ8 (~$27). Installed it, turned on the amp for a few minutes and tried it. No sound on the left channel, moving it about gave the same result as with the Brimar tube. Also, the GE tube heated up the heat sinks far more than the other tubes. So this one isn't working either.

 I put back the stock 6N11 tube and the amp is working fine again.

 Why? Is anything wrong with the amp? If I'm having bad luck with my tubes, could someone recommend a tube that definitely will work? Must be under $33 excl shipping and preferably RF-shileded.

 Thanks
 Knut_

 

I had no problems with that brimar and thought it sounded better than the 6n11. I think the tube socket isnt great at all, mine is very stiff and wobbles too much for my liking when I change tubes.

 Try the 6n11 again to see if that will fix things, if it does you now its the tubes, if not, perhaps the tube socket is damaged.


----------



## leeperry

.


----------



## enemigo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcoops16* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had no problems with that brimar and thought it sounded better than the 6n11. I think the tube socket isnt great at all, mine is very stiff and wobbles too much for my liking when I change tubes.

 Try the 6n11 again to see if that will fix things, if it does you now its the tubes, if not, perhaps the tube socket is damaged._

 

The 6n11 still works (as mentioned ¨,). I'm hesitant to buying more tubes now since the two I've tried are having similar faults. It could be the socket's fault, I'll disassemble the amp and check the soldering joints.

 K


----------



## brendon

^^ Strange. I have a total of 3 tubes and all three work fine. Its possible that its the tube that is at fault.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *enemigo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 6n11 still works (as mentioned ¨,). I'm hesitant to buying more tubes now since the two I've tried are having similar faults. It could be the socket's fault, I'll disassemble the amp and check the soldering joints.

 K_

 

sounds like a bad tube socket.


----------



## Judge Buff

^X2 
 On my Indeed, I had some of the initial crackling that you speak of and I ended up getting rid of the 6n11. I did some of the tube "jockeying" that you describe like leaning, reseating, etc. I *did* apply some pressure around the socket itself to see if it had shifted due to the board flexing in transit and it seemed to move slightly on the left facing the volume knob. 

 I have had no crackling problems since, but I've never returned the stock tube to the amp. It's worth a try to apply some moderate pressure around the socket, but you must have the pcb supported under the area you are pressuring. I put it flat on a table to do it. If it doesn't work, contact the Bravo folks and ask for assistance/return.

 Oh yeah, out of 25+ tubes I've rolled into my Indeed, I've only had two that were nonworking. All of my tubes have come from eBay, inc eBay.uk and eBay.de, too.


----------



## FraGGleR

Does anyone have a model number/source (preferably Mouser since I have some other stuff I need from there) for a drop in replacement for the push button power toggle for the Bravo? Mine doesn't catch consistently anymore. Not a huge issue, but I'd like to have it in perfect working order should I try to sell it. Thanks!


----------



## acvtre

The bravo v2 is just arrived and I want tweak it as much as I can. First of all I'd like to try some valves and change some capacitors. What would you suggest to buy?
 Sencodly I would change the pot with a better one and with more ohms, such as the 50kohm blu alps. Is it a good idea?


----------



## mmayer167

quick question, ive got a sylvania 7308 tube in my indeed (same thing as bravo basically) and compared to the stock tube the sylvania will make changing volume scratchy. ie when you move the volume adjuster i get a scratching sound. and with the stock chinese tube there is not noise just smooth volume adjustment... anybody who knows more than me about this kinda stuff id be interested in understanding why this happens. thanks!


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *acvtre* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bravo v2 is just arrived and I want tweak it as much as I can. First of all I'd like to try some valves and change some capacitors. What would you suggest to buy?
 Sencodly I would change the pot with a better one and with more ohms, such as the 50kohm blu alps. Is it a good idea?_

 

This web page has all the information you need on the 12AU7 tube for audio.

12AU7 Tubes in Stock

 You can change the coupling capacitors to something better. Read the Bravo and Indeed discussion threads there's a lot of information there. The thing to note with the Bravo (at least the V1) is that there isn't any extra space between the volume pot and the input jack for a larger capacitor so you are stuck with the 12.5mm diameter caps unless you get creative.

 The Bravo comes with an Alps pot I thought, I'm not sure why you want "more ohms".

 good luck


----------



## gurusan

Hey guys I just made the discovery that when the amp is cold the caps see over 20V!! Once it's warmed up they see only around 13-14V.

 So I've since replaced them with some 1000uF 50V Panasonic FC caps I had laying around.

 When the amp is cold tomorrow morning I'll try to measure the max the caps see when warming up...25V should be fine but I'll double check.


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys I just made the discovery that when the amp is cold the caps see over 20V!! Once it's warmed up they see only around 13-14V.

 So I've since replaced them with some 1000uF 50V Panasonic FC caps I had laying around.

 When the amp is cold tomorrow morning I'll try to measure the max the caps see when warming up...25V should be fine but I'll double check._

 

I put 25v 1000 uf Panasonic FC's in my Bravo. 

Digi-Key - P10278-ND (Manufacturer - EEU-FC1E102)


----------



## mhamel

Finally finished my mods to the Bravo.

 I ended up doing quite a bit to it, and I'm pretty happy with the way it came out. I had to get pretty creative to fit everything, so I re-cased it, too.

 I could have built a new amp from scratch with everything I ended up doing, but *shrug* - it was fun to do, so it's all good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 Mods:
 ------
 Replace trimmer pots with higher quality Bourns trimmers
 Replace PS cap with Nichicon 10K uF 35v
 Replace two small ceramic caps with Wima .22uF film caps
 Replace output coupling caps with 1000uF 35v Elna Silmic II
 Bypass coupling caps with Wima .22uF film caps
 Clean-up and re-flow all solder joints
 Re-case amp in a Mac Mini shell
 Replace volume pot with small SMD stepped attenuator
 Re-place/re-locate DC power Jack
 Replace/re-locate power switch
 Replace/re-locate inputs / outputs
 Add access port with test points on rear of case for easy biasing measurement

 In addition, I'd already bought a 24v 2.4A linear regulated power supply on eBay a few weeks back, figuring I could use it for the Bravo and other things, so I cased that up and am using that to power it.

 I have to say, the original solder joints on the amp were garbage. It looks like the power supply and ouput coupling caps were replaced either at the factory or by the eBay seller. They'd lifted 3 of the solder pads and the joints themselves were really poor quality. Took a bit of work to fix that up, but all residual noise I was getting from the amp prior is now gone.

 The Mac Mini case was an old G4 mini shell that I found cheap. I thought it would make a good base, adds some weight so the amp doesn't slide around the desk, and has plenty of room to let me mount some of the caps (the Elnas are HUGE compared to the original caps) and do the wiring underneath the board while still letting the amp sit on top for cooling/display. Without the original plexi cover, the amp runs a bit cooler, too.

 Plus, I sort of have a thing for re-using/re-designing existing things when I do my casework. I think there's some extra fun/challenge in getting it all to fit together without looking too much like a hack job.

 Initial impressions - cleaner, quieter, zero channel imbalance at any volume, no more odd noises/static as it was previously prone to do. I need to spend some more time listening to it, but so far I'm really liking what I hear.

 In any event... on with the pr0n:


























 -Mike


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mhamel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Finally finished my mods to the Bravo.

 I ended up doing quite a bit to it, and I'm pretty happy with the way it came out. I had to get pretty creative to fit everything, so I re-cased it, too.

 I could have built a new amp from scratch with everything I ended up doing, but *shrug* - it was fun to do, so it's all good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Mike_

 

Awesome work! Any chance of pics showing the guts?


----------



## scottder

mhamel, NICE!

 Scott


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mhamel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Finally finished my mods to the Bravo.....

 -Mike
_

 

Hey Mike

 Very nice, very creative. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## jcoops16

Great work there Mike, seeing this makes me realise how small those mac minis are.


----------



## Judge Buff

Beautiful work, Mike! It looks sweet and I know it sounds even better than it looks!


----------



## oohms

Another mod you can do to these that will increase sound quality, is to upgrade the mosfet to one with a lower input capacitance, like the IRF510

 I replaced the mosfet on mine with another LM317 (a voltage regulator 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - but you need to bend a pin on it) and it sounds surprisingly good, with much better (crisper) highs


----------



## mhamel

Thanks all... it was definitely a fun project. 

 As for the guts, I will try to get a few shots. Due to the way the Mac case goes together, it's kind of tight in there, so I don't know how well they'll work. I should have taken pics before I did the final assembly.

 -Mike


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Mike

 Very nice, very creative. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

You mean very nice, very _curious_ don't you? lol


----------



## weibby

thats just crazy.
 DAMN with a capital D.

 Nice.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You mean very nice, very curious don't you? lol_

 

What's _curious_ about it? 

 Don't you think Mike did a very nice job?

 USG


----------



## LeonWho

Just wondering. What are the major differences between the first generation and the later updates?

 Thanks,
 Leon


----------



## brendon

First gen - Chinese 6DJ8 equivalent stock tube. Not so great SQ

 First gen premium - Same amp but with Electro Harmonix 6922 tube - Better sound quality with same family of tubes.

 Second gen - Chine 12AU7 equivalent tube (i.e. different family of tubes as used in the first generation).

 Other than the family of tubes the first and second generation uses the same components.


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First gen - Chinese 6DJ8 equivalent stock tube. Not so great SQ

 First gen premium - Same amp but with Electro Harmonix 6922 tube - Better sound quality with same family of tubes.

 Second gen - Chine 12AU7 equivalent tube (i.e. different family of tubes as used in the first generation).

 Other than the family of tubes the first and second generation uses the same components._

 

IIRC there are 2 versions of the 6922 amp;

 first generation 6922 has plastic RCA input connectors.

 Second generation 6922 has metal RCA input connectors, a higher quality output cap, a different (better?) headphone out and different (better?) 3.5mm line in.

 The second generation also had the option of an upgraded tube.

 EDIT: Looking at the pics, the 12AU7 version uses the same components as the 2nd gen. 6922 amp


----------



## brendon

Oh yes, I forgot of the initial Indeed design.

 Bravo soon upgraded the design to use metal RCA input connectors and the other upgrades while Indeed still used the older design.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh yes, I forgot of the initial Indeed design.

 Bravo soon upgraded the design to use metal RCA input connectors and the other upgrades while Indeed still used the older design._

 

It's arguable, but some of the electronic components of the Indeed are of apparent better quality, as in the use of Dale resistors. I don't think that either company truly "upgrades" components, with the obvious exception of using a 6922 over the Chinese 6N1. I believe that in most cases that each company uses what is available and affordable for them to use. I also think that the Bravo had so many mounting problems with their original RCA jacks that they were forced to change them because of complaints. There were also apparent complaints about their original unshielded volume pot. Companies typically don't fix what isn't 'broken."

 As with any mass produced item, there are items where the company "cuts corners" to influence profit by using a cheaper component. The trim pots are one place where both companies skimped. One area where the Bravo was obviously better was the use of a 6800uF cap as a filter for the PS. Both companies PSs are problematic at best, but my Indeed PS is a 2A max and very quiet. 

 Your post reads like you feel the Bravo amp is an improvement over the Indeed. I don't think that is the case at all. 

 Just sayin'...


----------



## brendon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *enemigo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've tried two different tubes on my Bravo amp and can't get them to work properly. The stock 6N11 tube works just fine but having gotten a glimpse of what other tubes can do, I want to replace it.

 The first tube I bought was the Brimar CV2492 (~$15). It sounded far better, but there was a lot of background noise created by the amp (the pot did not affect the noise level). ALso the amp got extremely microphonic, picking up movement on my desk, like putting down my coffe cup. I realised the tube wasn't properly positioned in it's socket, so I pushed a fraction of an inch on one side. After that microphonics was gone, as was the left channel!. Pushing the tube sideways resulted in loud crackeling noises, mostly in the left channel, and microphonics returned. When I found a decent position for the tube I soon found the bass was wrong. It sounded like the amp wasn't getting enough current, the bass was breaking up badly even on low listening leves. So I assumed the tube was busted.

 Today I got the RF-shielded GE 6DJ8 (~$27). Installed it, turned on the amp for a few minutes and tried it. No sound on the left channel, moving it about gave the same result as with the Brimar tube. Also, the GE tube heated up the heat sinks far more than the other tubes. So this one isn't working either.

 I put back the stock 6N11 tube and the amp is working fine again.

 Why? Is anything wrong with the amp? If I'm having bad luck with my tubes, could someone recommend a tube that definitely will work? Must be under $31 excl shipping and preferably RF-shileded.

 Thanks
 Knut_

 

Damm I got myself a Mullard CV2492 tube and I am getting sound from only one channel too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Will burn-in the tube and hope the problem gets resolved.


----------



## brendon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's arguable, but some of the electronic components of the Indeed are of apparent better quality, as in the use of Dale resistors. I don't think that either company truly "upgrades" components, with the obvious exception of using a 6922 over the Chinese 6N1. I believe that in most cases that each company uses what is available and affordable for them to use. I also think that the Bravo had so many mounting problems with their original RCA jacks that they were forced to change them because of complaints. There were also apparent complaints about their original unshielded volume pot. Companies typically don't fix what isn't 'broken."

 As with any mass produced item, there are items where the company "cuts corners" to influence profit by using a cheaper component. The trim pots are one place where both companies skimped. One area where the Bravo was obviously better was the use of a 6800uF cap as a filter for the PS. Both companies PSs are problematic at best, but my Indeed PS is a 2A max and very quiet. 

 Your post reads like you feel the Bravo amp is an improvement over the Indeed. I don't think that is the case at all. 

 Just sayin'..._

 

You have a point. I will keep that in mind in future.


----------



## mhamel

From what I can tell, both the Bravo and Indeed are sourcing from a 3rd party and just having their logo silk-screened on the top plate.

 On the Bravo I purchased, it was obvious that a few things had been re-soldered, namely the output caps and the power cap, and badly, at that. In both cases the board traces had been lifted and required some work to repair when I was doing my own mods.

 If you do some digging, you can find the same amp with slightly different parts and other brand names. ie: Miridiy Class A Hybrid Tube Amp

 Maybe they are placing orders for them built with different parts, maybe they are doing some modding after the fact, but they are definitely not designing/building themselves.

 Further evidenced by the fact that neither will sell an amp without a tube. Bravo's response was something to the effect that they come that way from the factory, Indeed gave me a line about how biasing the tube is too difficult and precise, so they only sell with tube installed.

 I also own the Indeed 6922 line stage, and technical questions prompted similar vague responses. They've also peeled the wrappers off of most of the caps in the line stage for some reason.

 TBH, given the flood of fake parts out of China, I don't know that I'd trust any of the parts in either amp to be what they claim to be.

 Bottom line, they're decent-sounding little amps, fun to mod, easy/cheap to roll tubes, and with some relatively inexpensive tweaking they can sound surprisingly good, whichever version you decide to buy.

 -Mike


----------



## lozanoa11

Well mine was always a little noisy but I pluged my IEM's into it today and wow its kinda bad. Even with no sources plugged in and volume all the way down there is a considerable amount of static noise.


----------



## RyzeHD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lozanoa11* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well mine was always a little noisy but I pluged my IEM's into it today and wow its kinda bad. Even with no sources plugged in and volume all the way down there is a considerable amount of static noise._

 

I've had this same problem w/ noise and hiss for as long as I've had this amp. At first I used to think that it was just interference noise w/ all my other electronic devices around it, but well after isolating it from everything, no dice. It gets pretty annoying at times, but I guess I'll have to live w/ it until I get something better.


----------



## mhamel

As it was, stock, I had static issues with my Bravo.

 Changing the power supply helped some of it, then after mods and re-flowing all of the solder joints, it was completely gone. It's silent now.

 -Mike


----------



## brendon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damm I got myself a Mullard CV2492 tube and I am getting sound from only one channel too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Will burn-in the tube and hope the problem gets resolved._

 

Phew I managed to fix it. I just adjusted the bias and now its working like a charm. But somehow I still feel the Philips Miniwatt is the best tube for the amp.


----------



## RyzeHD

Mike what power supply did you get? And where? I might wanna go that route as well, but wasnt sure what my options were...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mhamel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As it was, stock, I had static issues with my Bravo.

 Changing the power supply helped some of it, then after mods and re-flowing all of the solder joints, it was completely gone. It's silent now.

 -Mike_


----------



## mhamel

There's another thread going on right now just about the PSU replacements, I posted the model over there with a link and such.

Bravo PSU Thread

 -Mike


----------



## acvtre

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Phew I managed to fix it. I just adjusted the bias and now its working like a charm. But somehow I still feel the Philips Miniwatt is the best tube for the amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

How did you adjusted it? I have a bravo v2.


----------



## brendon

^^ If you open the top of the amp (the plastic with the Bravo name) you will see two small yellow round discs with a plus sign embedded into them. (Next to the volume pot)

 You need to use a screw driver to turn them when the amp is running and turn both screws till the sound seems fine.

 If you have difficulty locating it just let me know and ill click a photo with the bias pots highlighted.


----------



## acvtre

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brendon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^ If you open the top of the amp (the plastic with the Bravo name) you will see two small yellow round discs with a plus sign embedded into them. (Next to the volume pot)

 You need to use a screw driver to turn them when the amp is running and turn both screws till the sound seems fine.

 If you have difficulty locating it just let me know and ill click a photo with the bias pots highlighted._

 

The bravo v2 doesn't use pots but capacitors.


----------



## brendon

Oh I didn't know that ! Sorry then I dont know what to do.


----------



## Joe Presto

It took a month to finally get round to building an attenuator for the Bravo based on the advice given to me here and it works a treat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The reason to build was that the channels didn't balance at a listenable level using Grado's. I still can't open the volume pot very far, but enough to have the channels balance, I might change the resistors to attenuate further, but for now I am happy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thanks to all for all the advice!


----------



## Mannevond

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joe Presto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It took a month to finally get round to building an attenuator for the Bravo based on the advice given to me here and it works a treat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The reason to build was that the channels didn't balance at a listenable level using Grado's. I still can't open the volume pot very far, but enough to have the channels balance, I might change the resistors to attenuate further, but for now I am happy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thanks to all for all the advice!_

 

How did you make it and where did you put it? If you just attenuate the input signal with resistors, it might make the amp noisy?


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mannevond* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How did you make it and where did you put it? If you kust attenuate the input signal with resistors, it might make the amp noisy?_

 

The following website has the details you need to build the L-Pad: CLICK!

 Use the calculator to find the resistor values needed; I used 10db for my Grado's, though as mentioned, I might attenuate further in future. The schematic is quite straightforward, if you need help send me a PM 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: It goes between the amp and the cans, it looks a lot like a Grado 6.3mm to 3.5mm adaptor cable.

 Regarding attenuating the input signal, someone else has to answer that!


----------



## Mannevond

Cool. What resistors did you use? I would think 0.25W doesn't cut it. Would 0.5W be enough or should I go even higher? This would be for my K701s.


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mannevond* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool. What resistors did you use? I would think 0.25W doesn't cut it. Would 0.5W be enough or should I go even higher? This would be for my K701s._

 

I'm surprised you need to attenuate those cans. I got the resistors that matched the resistance as close as possible as was output by the calculator; I didn't check what power rating they have.


----------



## igotyofire

can the bravo kill a pair of headphone if left plugged in during the power on/off phase? i forgot the proper way to do it, recently read somthing about the amp being under load depending on the design, not sure about this.


----------



## oohms

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can the bravo kill a pair of headphone if left plugged in during the power on/off phase? i forgot the proper way to do it, recently read somthing about the amp being under load depending on the design, not sure about this._

 

It is possible, since the output coupling capacitors charge/discharge when the amp is turned on/off.

 The proper way is to leave the headphones unplugged when you turn it on, wait for like 20 seconds, and then plug them in.
 Unplug the headphones before you turn it off as well.


----------



## Mannevond

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joe Presto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm surprised you need to attenuate those cans. I got the resistors that matched the resistance as close as possible as was output by the calculator; I didn't check what power rating they have._

 

So was I, but that's the way it is. When turned to 12 o'clock, the level is unbearable. This is from both my NAD C541 and my edirol FA-101 sound card, so I know it isn't because of too high input levels. Sound is incredibly clean, but way too loud. I'd like to be able to turn the level up on the amp without turning down the input.

 I'm contemplating building T-pads instead of L-pads. The page you linked to seems to suggest that the T-pad sounds more natural. I still wonder if 0.25W resistors are going to be a problem though. I'll just build a set and see what happens. The cost is close to nil so I don't have much to lose


----------



## igotyofire

possible power supply alternative

Power Supply For 6DJ8 Single End Tube Head Phone Amp - eBay (item 300328243557 end time Apr-02-10 09:12:25 PDT)


----------



## igotyofire

i think the left channel on my amp sounds slightly louder then the right channel which has been giving me the impression that that ive been loosing my hearing in my right ear or the recording source naturally called for this, but finally i switched them around and found that it followed. Will adjusting the bias pots fix this? Im so afraid to move those darn things since i think i got lucky with a pretty good setting right out of the box. I dont notice this out of my maverick D1 so pretty sure its the bravo

 I think it changes with different headphones a bit, my HD600s exhibit a static noise constantly from the right channel. I dont hear it when music is playing but when no music is playing i can hear it


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igotyofire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i think the left channel on my amp sounds slightly louder then the right channel which has been giving me the impression that that ive been loosing my hearing in my right ear or the recording source naturally called for this, but finally i switched them around and found that it followed. Will adjusting the bias pots fix this? Im so afraid to move those darn things since i think i got lucky with a pretty good setting right out of the box. I dont notice this out of my maverick D1 so pretty sure its the bravo

 I think it changes with different headphones a bit, my HD600s exhibit a static noise constantly from the right channel. I dont hear it when music is playing but when no music is playing i can hear it_

 

I found that just the tiniest of adjustments (or even a slight tap on the pots) can remove (or add) hiss. I don't know if adjusting will help balance the output over the two channels though, somebod else?

 I bought a tube (Harmonix) and find that the sound through it is similar to the stock tube when not properly heated up; I assume I need to change the bias to suit the tube?


----------



## morphon

I just got one of these from a new production run. Totally silent with my UE TF10-Pro. I had to use the impedance adapter so the volume control is more meaningful.  Channel balance is tilted to the right until it fully warms up. After letting it sit 20 minutes, it balances perfectly.

 So far impressed.


----------



## hepatus1234

Hi
 I just got a bravo V2, which comes with a 12AU7 tube. 
 I don’t know much about tubes but I have read that 12AX7 are similar but with less gain.
 Is this true?
 Can I change the tube to a 12AX7 to reduce the amp gain and get lower output volume without damaging the amp or the phones?
 Sorry about the ignorance but I don’t know much about electronic.
 Regards


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hepatus1234* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi
 I just got a bravo V2, which comes with a 12AU7 tube. 
 I don’t know much about tubes but I have read that 12AX7 are similar but with less gain.
 Is this true?
 Can I change the tube to a 12AX7 to reduce the amp gain and get lower output volume without damaging the amp or the phones?
 Sorry about the ignorance but I don’t know much about electronic.
 Regards_

 

Short answer: No you can't substitute a 12AX7 for the 12AU7. Here's a list of possible tube substitutions for the 12AU7 and some tube data: 

TDSL Tube data [12AU7]


----------



## gurusan

Well my power button has broken 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Has anyone found a decent replacement? Thanks


----------



## leeperry

a friend of mine is BLOWN away by this indeed version: New G2 Class A Hybrid Tube Headphone Pre Amplifier 6N11

 I won't dare telling you what his previous amp was, but it was very solid stuff...and if it wasn't getting so hot, I'd be all over it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 plus I'm afraid of tube rolling(bias adjusting seems to be a major PITA), if it becomes an OCD as much w/ opamps...no thanks


----------



## ear8dmg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well my power button has broken 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Has anyone found a decent replacement? Thanks_

 

My power button is pretty much unusable. After much persistance I managed to get it to stay on and currently just unplug / replug the figure of 8 lead into the PSU. Not really a solution, but a workaround.


----------



## gurusan

I think I'll just put a toggle switch in there for now, but sort of wanted a decent pushbutton style swithc.


----------



## hepatus1234

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CPL593H* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Short answer: No you can't substitute a 12AX7 for the 12AU7. Here's a list of possible tube substitutions for the 12AU7 and some tube data: 

TDSL Tube data [12AU7]_

 

Thanks
 Glad I didnt try before ask
 Regards


----------



## ear8dmg

So, I unexpectedly found myself ordering some HD600s when they dropped to £100 on play.com.

 How does the Bravo handle them?


----------



## jcoops16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ear8dmg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, I unexpectedly found myself ordering some HD600s when they dropped to £100 on play.com.

 How does the Bravo handle them?_

 

When did play do that? All gone now I see.

 Didn't drop the hd650's though did they? Im still waiting for them to drop below £200 like they did afew months back.


----------



## ear8dmg

Play had April 1st madness sale. It was one day only. There's a couple of threads in the full sized headphones forum. The HD650s weren't discounted. HD595s were £70 though.


----------



## morphon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ear8dmg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, I unexpectedly found myself ordering some HD600s when they dropped to £100 on play.com.

 How does the Bravo handle them?_

 


 I borrowed a friend's HD600 when I got the Bravo V2. Suffice it to say that the combination worked very well. The Bravo has plenty of power to drive them. Off a line-level input I never got the volume control above the 10:00 position (which was playing classical music quite loud). Sound was very pleasant - good dynamics and detail. I didn't have another amp close by to do a comparison, but nothing seemed missing from the sound during the few days that I had the HD600 hooked up.

 So, I can't tell you that it worked better than some other amp. But it sounded very good with power to spare.


----------



## Amatsu

Anyone heard any opinions about this one?
Miridiy Class A Hybrid Tube Headphone Stereo Amplifier - eBay (item 110514807480 end time Apr-05-10 02:07:20 PDT)

 It appears to be another design based on the Indeed, it even says so in the description: Quote:


 - Circuit design reference by Indeed Hi Fi Lab


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Amatsu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone heard any opinions about this one?
Miridiy Class A Hybrid Tube Headphone Stereo Amplifier - eBay (item 110514807480 end time Apr-05-10 02:07:20 PDT)

 It appears to be another design based on the Indeed, it even says so in the description:_

 

If you can get it for cheaper than the Indeed or Bravo, do it! Then replace everything you can get off of the board with decent parts...


----------



## lecky

An update on my V1.2 Bravo (Second iteration of V1), with a Jan Sylvania 6DJ8 - I had put it aside finding that it wasn't making anything sound better than my Cyrus One, for instance the HD580s are fine from it up to a point, but really not as controlled and relatively natural sounding as from the Cyrus.

 Then I got some Quart Phone 85, and the Cyrus makes them too bright, and the low end is really poor. However the Bravo is a fantastic match for these headphones - good control and balance, an uncanny soundstage (excuse the pun) - very low bass is of course limited, but for acoustic music it's fabulous, with a warm smooth mid and not too bright treble. Perhaps there's a smidge less detail, but nothing to complain about for what it offers.

 So this amp has a new life. Perhaps I'll start modding it to see how far it'll go with these headphones.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So this amp has a new life. Perhaps I'll start modding it to see how far it'll go with these headphones._

 

Lecky, you gotta replace the radial caps! At least replace the output caps with SilmicII or KZs. If your PS cap is 6800uF, you can go up to around 10K. Bass will improve and get cleaner (at least my Indeed did, as my PS cap was much smaller). My output caps are only 16V 470uF SilmicII and they are great sounding.

 If you can find a decent Mullard E88CC or ECC88, you'll probably put the Sylvania up for good. I recommend an A-Frame Philips overall, though, for bang for the buck.


----------



## lecky

Thanks Judge Buff, I'll look into that...


----------



## oohms

Personally i would replace passive components last, as there are other mods that will improve the sound a lot more

 (This is for the 12AU7 version, but it is possible to convert the 6922/6DJ8 version to the 12AU7 one if you really want to do the crosstalk lowering mod)

Rock Grotto Audio Forum - For Headphones - Headphone Amps - Amplifiers - X-Can V2 - Musical Fidelity - headphone Discussion - Amplifier Discussion - DIY - Amplifier Kits - Projects - SCHA - Sennheiser - Beyer - Grado - Audio Technica - Headphone amp


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurusan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I'll just put a toggle switch in there for now, but sort of wanted a decent pushbutton style swithc._

 

My switch crapped-out tonight... Have you discovered a suitable replacement?


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My switch crapped-out tonight... Have you discovered a suitable replacement?_

 

Fragile little conversation piece, this amp is.

 Good for soldering practice, it has become. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 USG


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fragile little conversation piece, this amp is.

 Good for soldering practice, it has become. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG




_

 

Thanks, Yoda... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is the first part on mine to expire. The rest I replaced by choice. 

 I'm still willing to rescue yours from that drawer, BTW.


----------



## ear8dmg

There's a new version out - v3. This time with a built-in eq...

Bravo Tube Headphone Amplifier V3 EQ Equalizer valve on eBay (end time 05-May-10 13:52:08 BST)

 Think I'll pass.


----------



## fiver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ear8dmg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a new version out - v3. This time with a built-in eq...

Bravo Tube Headphone Amplifier V3 EQ Equalizer valve on eBay (end time 05-May-10 13:52:08 BST)

 Think I'll pass._

 

I have no desire for an EQ, I would also pass.

 My V2 has been here for a day now, still burning in. I'm quite happy with it, but it is far to hot for lower impedance phones. Not a problem for me because the low impedance cans are mostly in my travel bag and this amp is going to be stationary by my bed, where I'll be keeping a pair of HD580's.


----------



## wallace

Mine didn't work,sent it back 4 months ago,no word yet,should have saved the postage and put it in the bin...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wallace* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine didn't work,sent it back 4 months ago,no word yet,should have saved the postage and put it in the bin...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

They never sent me a replacement for the broken power supply that came with the amp. They e-mailed that they would, but they never did. 

 So, I use an ELPAC PS (that cost more than the amp) when I want to demo it. 

 Btw, how much did it cost to send it back?

 USG


----------



## wallace

Four pounds for air mail from UK..


----------



## CPL593H

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My switch crapped-out tonight... Have you discovered a suitable replacement?_

 


 I looked on Mouser.com for replacement switches a few months ago and recall seeing more than one that looked like it might fit. I posted a link to it on this site.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I measured the current consumption for my Bravo and it drew 320mA at idle.
 Being a class A amp the current at idle is the same as at full power...the draw
 at ear-splitting levels was still 320mA. The bottom line is that the 1 amp supply
 will work just as well as the 2 Amp supply. How well filtered the supply is will make
 the biggest difference.

 I checked on Digi-Key and the replacement power swith is: CKN1191-ND


----------



## neopac

Got mine (V2) yesterday and absolutely hated the sound he was making ... thought, you get what you´ve paid for (~30€ incl. shipping) but the sound changed dramatically (in a good way) in the first hours of usage.

 I´m curious how he will evolve in the next 20hours ... so far he shines with very detailed mids, works great with male voices ... lows are though pretty uncontrolled and the highs are a bit recessed -> but the sound overall is great for such a cheap amp.

 neopac


----------



## lecky

I now have a couple of 16V 470uF SilmicIIs and a Philips Jan 6922 in it and it's very different, in a good way. The caps were certainly a more subtle change than the tube. Together much smoother across the board, a wider and deeper soundstage. I look forward to seeing how some more hours might help too.

 I've a 10,000uF 50v Nichicon power cap on the way too.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I now have a couple of 16V 470uF SilmicIIs and a Philips Jan 6922 in it and it's very different, in a good way. The caps were certainly a more subtle change than the tube. Together much smoother across the board, a wider and deeper soundstage. I look forward to seeing how some more hours might help too.

 I've a 10,000uF 50v Nichicon power cap on the way too._

 

Good stuff, huh? That Philips Jan 6922 is a very good tube for the money. I find the 6dj8s to be more robust sounding than 6922s in my amp, though. If you can find a decently balanced, 6dj8 A-Frame with a dimpled disc getter (say that 5 times fast), you may never put another 6922 in it.

 While you are changing out parts, put a couple of decent (one-turn Bournes, etc) trim pots in it. Much nicer for rolling tubes, than the stock pots on mine!

 There is a great eBay vendor, who is a loyal subject of the Queen, named johnny3838 that has a nice Mully or Brimar, usually on a weekly basis. I've gotten a couple of these for a pittance, the latest being a Brimar a couple of days ago. Worth checking out...


----------



## lecky

Thanks Buff.


----------



## lecky

I've ordered a G2 Indeed, should be fun to play with.


----------



## KeeChoon

Need some help here. Had replacing the output caps of my Bravo V2 with 1000uf Muse and removed the pot, wiring it to a Alps Blue Velvet. After these mods, there is nothing from the right channel at all. The pads of the cap next to the 3.5mm input did lift but the connection seemed fine still. Have check the wiring for the pot and its correct. Any ideas anyone?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KeeChoon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Need some help here. Had replacing the output caps of my Bravo V2 with 1000uf Muse and removed the pot, wiring it to a Alps Blue Velvet. After these mods, there is nothing from the right channel at all. The pads of the cap next to the 3.5mm input did lift but the connection seemed fine still. Have check the wiring for the pot and its correct. Any ideas anyone?_

 

Check the continuity for the lifted pad with an ohm meter.
 Did you observe the polarity of the output capacitors when you replaced them?
 Lastly, remove and replace the tube...the socket seems to be a bit touchy sometimes. One last thing to check...do both heaters in the tube still glow?

 Good Luck!


----------



## KeeChoon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Check the continuity for the lifted pad with an ohm meter.
 Did you observe the polarity of the output capacitors when you replaced them?
 Lastly, remove and replace the tube...the socket seems to be a bit touchy sometimes. One last thing to check...do both heaters in the tube still glow?

 Good Luck!_

 

Polarity was correct, had tried 2 other tubes with the same result. Will look into the heater part later tonight. As for the lifted pad, I had tried wiring it to the next point it was connected to but no luck.

 Anyway is the side with problem the exact right side for the output?

 Thanks!


----------



## Slowmoe

I've come along this list of tube equivalents and aside from the usual are other tubes that are listed. Now I've tried to keep up with this post, but somewhere around 28 I just fast forwarded and I may have missed this being already mentioned.

 Anyways attached is the list, which may not be new to people here (it may even be done from here?).

 If you look it shows the following as been equivalents:

 6N11 --> (was the stock China one it came with originally)

 6922 --> (I ironically swapped for an electro-harmonix, only for it to become the default option, it sounds quite good for what I have at hand)

 E88CC/ ECC88 --> (I also tried the JJ Gold Pins, even when trimmed and balanced, I didn't like its profile when compared to the Electro Harmonix)

 6DJ8 --> (I haven't tried any tubes of this flavour)

 6ES8 --> (I haven't tried any tubes of this flavour)

 ECC189 --> (I haven't tried any tubes of this flavour)

 Anyone tried any of those other variants? Also since I got someones attention, if I was to make an equalizer, would it be good to do this before the preamplifier or after? I think it would be easier and better to do what needs to be done to a signal closest to the point of the source ... anyone have insight as to which option is better?

 Ohh and first post, go easy on me folks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .

 EDIT: Oish sorry uploaded the wrong file before, sorry if I confused anyone. The file is too big, but the excel spreadsheet can be had here:

http://www.tubebbs.com/tubedata/othe...valents_AS.xls


----------



## lecky

There are Russian 6H23P (Which I have, but not burned in enough to comment, other than to say it's not bad at least), and I believe there are some other similar Russian tubes that are reputedly good.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you can tell my little mods from these three perspectives:_

 

You forgot one of the most important modifications...Cathode bias bypass
 capacitors. The value is not critical....something from 100uF up to 440uF @ 6.3 volts is enough. I stuck in a couple of 680uF @ 10 volt panasonics that I had
 laying around. They go across the bias adjusting pots.
 The self biasing for the tube does not work properly without them.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You forgot one of the most important modifications...Cathode bias bypass
 capacitors. The value is not critical....something from 100uF up to 440uF @ 6.3 volts is enough. I stuck in a couple of 680uF @ 10 volt panasonics that I had
 laying around. They go across the bias adjusting pots.
 The self biasing for the tube does not work properly without them._

 

I'm pretty sure that I forgot nothing... 

 I made every modification that I wanted to make. Self-biasing? If my Indeed V1 has self-biasing, I missed that when I read the product description *last fall*. 

 Post some pictures and let us SEE what you mean.

 Those are pretty high values for bypass caps, aren't they? My output cap's only 470uF.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Slowmoe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've come along this list of tube equivalents and aside from the usual are other tubes that are listed. Now I've tried to keep up with this post, but somewhere around 28 I just fast forwarded and I may have missed this being already mentioned.

 Anyways attached is the list, which may not be new to people here (it may even be done from here?).

 If you look it shows the following as been equivalents:

 6N11 --> (was the stock China one it came with originally)

 6922 --> (I ironically swapped for an electro-harmonix, only for it to become the default option, it sounds quite good for what I have at hand)

 E88CC/ ECC88 --> (I also tried the JJ Gold Pins, even when trimmed and balanced, I didn't like its profile when compared to the Electro Harmonix)

 6DJ8 --> (I haven't tried any tubes of this flavour)

 6ES8 --> (I haven't tried any tubes of this flavour)

 ECC189 --> (I haven't tried any tubes of this flavour)

 Anyone tried any of those other variants? Also since I got someones attention, if I was to make an equalizer, would it be good to do this before the preamplifier or after? I think it would be easier and better to do what needs to be done to a signal closest to the point of the source ... anyone have insight as to which option is better?

 Ohh and first post, go easy on me folks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .

 EDIT: Oish sorry uploaded the wrong file before, sorry if I confused anyone. The file is too big, but the excel spreadsheet can be had here:

http://www.tubebbs.com/tubedata/othe...valents_AS.xls_

 

ECC88 is the European designation for the American 6dj8 and vice versa. E88CC is European for an American 6922 and vice versa. ECC189s are not drop-in compatible with 6dj8s. ECC188s are the same as 7308 Americans. I haven't tried any 6es8s, as I haven't seen any around. ECC88s/6dj8s rock in my Indeed! 6922s/E88CCs are generally smoother/softer sounding in my Indeed. PCC88s are 7V versions of ECC88s and work quite well in my Indeed @6.3V. Apparently a lot of folks like the EH 6922s, but JJ Teslas are apparently really POS.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm pretty sure that I forgot nothing... 

 I made every modification that I wanted to make. Self-biasing? If my Indeed V1 has self-biasing, I missed that when I read the product description *last fall*. 

 Post some pictures and let us SEE what you mean.

 Those are pretty high values for bypass caps, aren't they? My output cap's only 470uF._

 

Hi Judge Buff

 The mods you have done so far are great! 
 This mod corrects a minor design flaw that the amps have. Here's the thing...
 You know that electrons flow from the (negative) cathode to the (positive) anode.
 This flow is controlled by the gate.
 If the gate is positive compared to the cathode then electrons flow into the gate as well.
 To prevent this, the gate is made negative compared to the cathode.
 The method to do this in this case is to put a resistor between the cathode and ground. This is know as "self biasing". The problem is that as the current through the resistor changes in response to the input signal, so does the voltage at the cathode. The effect is to cause compression of the input signal. The bypass capacitor hold the voltage on the cathode steady and prevents this effect.
 The result to your ears should be a more dynamic and punchier sound.
 I attached the schematic of the amp with the new component drawn in in red.
 I will have a picture for you later today if I can.

 Happy listening!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Judge Buff

 The mods you have done so far are great! 
 This mod corrects a minor design flaw that the amps have. Here's the thing...
 You know that electrons flow from the (negative) cathode to the (positive) anode.
 This flow is controlled by the gate.
 If the gate is positive compared to the cathode then electrons flow into the gate as well.
 To prevent this, the gate is made negative compared to the cathode.
 The method to do this in this case is to put a resistor between the cathode and ground. This is know as "self biasing". The problem is that as the current through the resistor changes in response to the input signal, so does the voltage at the cathode. The effect is to cause compression of the input signal. The bypass capacitor hold the voltage on the cathode steady and prevents this effect.
 The result to your ears should be a more dynamic and punchier sound.
 I attached the schematic of the amp with the new component drawn in in red.
 I will have a picture for you later today if I can.

 Happy listening!_

 

Gotcha... a pic of the placement would be great. I'd probably need to put small film caps on the bottom of the PCB. I'm a true _visual_ learner.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Here is a picture of the Capacitor placement.

 The positive side of the cap goes to the cathode and the negative side goes to ground. Mine are soldered to the bottom of the bias adjust pots.
 The cathode sits about .5 volts above ground so a low voltage electrolytic, say 6.3 volts, is all you need. You are trying to achieve a corner frequency of 1 hz so the value is relatively large...100uF up to 440uF are common. Maybe calling it a "bypass" capacitor confuses people into thinking it is like a MKT you might use in the power supply, but it's job is more like the 10,000uF you have as you bulk supply capacitor.

 This would be a good choice...it is an OS-Con with a very low ESR.
Digi-Key - 493-3066-ND (Manufacturer - PLE0J471MDO1)


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is a picture of the Capacitor placement.

 The positive side of the cap goes to the cathode and the negative side goes to ground. Mine are soldered to the bottom of the bias adjust pots.
 The cathode sits about .5 volts above ground so a low voltage electrolytic, say 6.3 volts, is all you need. You are trying to achieve a corner frequency of 1 hz so the value is relatively large...100uF up to 440uF are common. Maybe calling it a "bypass" capacitor confuses people into thinking it is like a MKT you might use in the power supply, but it's job is more like the 10,000uF you have as you bulk supply capacitor.

 This would be a good choice...it is an OS-Con with a very low ESR.
Digi-Key - 493-3066-ND (Manufacturer - PLE0J471MDO1)_

 

Thanks! I have a ton of 16V 470s, 100s and 220s around here that are low ESR (though not as low as the one you linked). I'll try to rig something while I'm off from work this week. Once again, thanks for the info. I'll post results.


----------



## Slowmoe

Hey how does this mod behave at full gain? I think the no-bypass reduced the gain ad this mod increases it. Might just place too much stress on the MOSFET at full amplification for too long. Also this might become more susceptible to loading effects, so it might have different gains with different loads, whereas now it is more stable.

 Any one who modded care to try on full blast? Try with a load as well, not just an open-loop.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Slowmoe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey how does this mod behave at full gain? I think the no-bypass reduced the gain ad this mod increases it. Might just place too much stress on the MOSFET at full amplification for too long. Also this might become more susceptible to loading effects, so it might have different gains with different loads, whereas now it is more stable.

 Any one who modded care to try on full blast? Try with a load as well, not just an open-loop._

 

The IRF630 MOSFETs will melt your headphones before you could stress them out...
 Oh yes, thats another upgrade...IRF510 sounds much better than IRF630...

 Remeber too, Class A amps use just as much power at idle as they do at maximum volume.

 This is not so much of a mod...just fixing it to work like it should...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks! I have a ton of 16V 470s, 100s and 220s around here that are low ESR (though not as low as the one you linked). I'll try to rig something while I'm off from work this week. Once again, thanks for the info. I'll post results._

 

A tip to remember when setting your bias after this mod...you should set it by _increasing_ the voltage...it takes a while for the voltage to fall...

 Let us know how it turns out. I thought it really brought mine to life.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Slowmoe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey how does this mod behave at full gain? I think the no-bypass reduced the gain ad this mod increases it. Might just place too much stress on the MOSFET at full amplification for too long. Also this might become more susceptible to loading effects, so it might have different gains with different loads, whereas now it is more stable.

 Any one who modded care to try on full blast? Try with a load as well, not just an open-loop._

 

I thought a little more about what you were saying and I think I have a better answer...

 This modification does not change the gain of the amp...the gain is set by the construction of the tube and can not be changed.
 What this mod does is _restore_ the original dynamic range of the signal.
 I also noticed that it firms up the Bass.
 The "load" seen by the amp is isolated from the tube by the current output stage. 

 I hope this clears it up a little...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Bias Setting:

 I have seen many people wonder how to set the trim pots...
 The pot sets the bias voltage on the cathode of the tube.
 I have seen it suggested that it be set at 16 to 17 volts as measured at the anode of the tube.
 The proper setting is to measure the voltage at the positive terminal
 of the output capacitor. The reading should be 1/2 the supply voltage
 or 12 volts in this case. On my bravo this gave me 15.75 volts on the
 anode of the tube. Hope this helps people with setting their bias point.

 Happy listening!


----------



## xtlee

I've tried a couple of 6N1 tubes I had from a working amplifier in the Bravo. They don't output any audio. The red and blue leds come on but I don't see the heater working in the tube. 

 According to this, the Bravo originally came with a 6N1 tube.

http://www.slugsite.com/archives/1289


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xtlee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've tried a couple of 6N1 tubes I had from a working amplifier in the Bravo. They don't output any audio. The red and blue leds come on but I don't see the heater working in the tube. 

 According to this, the Bravo originally came with a 6N1 tube.

http://www.slugsite.com/archives/1289_

 

The tube they came with was 6N11.
 It should work with any tube in this family like 6922.
 There are others here much more familiar with tube rolling than me...but
 I don't think your 6N1 is compatible with 6N11.


----------



## xtlee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The tube they came with was 6N11.
 It should work with any tube in this family like 6922.
 There are others here much more familiar with tube rolling than me...but
 I don't think your 6N1 is compatible with 6N11._

 

What's interesting is the 6N1 tubes came out of a Yaqin VK-2100 which now has 6DJ8/6922 Sovtek Groove tubes in place.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xtlee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's interesting is the 6N1 tubes came out of a Yaqin VK-2100 which now has 6DJ8/6922 Sovtek Groove tubes in place._

 

I think I might have hit upon the answer...
 The heater in the 6n1 requires more current than the 6n11.
 You can use a 6922 in an amp designed for 6n1 but not the
 other way around...
 Try your 6922s and see if they work...then you will have your answer...


----------



## xtlee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I might have hit upon the answer...
 The heater in the 6n1 requires more current than the 6n11.
 You can use a 6922 in an amp designed for 6n1 but not the
 other way around...
 Try your 6922s and see if they work...then you will have your answer..._

 

Also it seems that the 6n1 tube require more heater current than the 6922 tubes as well. So that would explain it since the heaters on the groove tubes are not as bright as the 6n1 tubes. It all makes sense now.

 From the data sheets - Heater Current:
 6922=300 mA
 6DJ8=365 mA
 6N1=600 mA

 I guess the amp could be modified to allow more current flow, but the 6n1 tubes are too cheap sounding to even bother with...haha I was just curious and wanted to compare.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A tip to remember when setting your bias after this mod...you should set it by increasing the voltage...it takes a while for the voltage to fall...

 Let us know how it turns out. I thought it really brought mine to life._

 

I just posted in the Indeed thread. This is an awesome mod A_A! It's well worth making the amp look like a "stilt house" in a bayou. Probably more important than all the other mods combined.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just posted in the Indeed thread. This is an awesome mod A_A! It's well worth making the amp look like a "stilt house" in a bayou. Probably more important than all the other mods combined._

 

I'm glad you are happy with the mod.
 I guess you saw in my picture that mine looks like a stilt house too...

 Next on your "hit list" could be changing the MOSFET to IRF510.

 Did you follow my advice on setting the bias point? I posted it earlier today
 in both threads.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you follow my advice on setting the bias point? I posted it earlier today in both threads._

 

I adjust by ear, since I roll tubes so often. If and when I start to listen to music with a multimeter in my pocket 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, I will follow the instructions...

 Oh yeah, what does one gain by swapping the mosfet?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I adjust by ear, since I roll tubes so often. If and when I start to listen to music with a multimeter in my pocket 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I will follow the instructions...

 Oh yeah, what does one gain by swapping the mosfet?_

 

The IRF510 has lower internal capacitance and sounds better in the mid and
 high range. I've hard that you can get IRF510 at radioshack in the US.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I adjust by ear, since I roll tubes so often. If and when I start to listen to music with a multimeter in my pocket 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I will follow the instructions...

 Oh yeah, what does one gain by swapping the mosfet?_

 

Try adjusting it once to the proper settings and see how it sounds...then you can set it to that sound by ear...you will also see how close your "ear" is to the numbers...


----------



## pj_rage

Judge Buff and AA... are you guys talking about mods specific to the v1 or v2? It seems like the v1 based on the tubes you're talking about. Any idea how many of the same mods carry over to the v2?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pj_rage* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Judge Buff and AA... are you guys talking about mods specific to the v1 or v2? It seems like the v1 based on the tubes you're talking about. Any idea how many of the same mods carry over to the v2?_

 

In a word...Yes.

 All the same mods will work on the 12AU7 version the same as the 6N11 (6922). It is exactly the same design. I would be interested in seeing some detailed pictures of the top and bottom to see how they handled the different heater voltage.


----------



## pj_rage

Well I have one on the way to play with, I'll be happy to post some pics if no one has by the time I receive it.

 What should be my number 1, 2, 3 mods?

 I have some Panasonic FC 1200uf and 1500uf 50V caps around... can I make use of them?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pj_rage* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
_ Well I have one on the way to play with, I'll be happy to post some pics if no one has by the time I receive it.

 What should be my number 1, 2, 3 mods?

 I have some Panasonic FC 1200uf and 1500uf 50V caps around... can I make use of them?_

 

  It would be hard for me to rank them in order as they are all worthwhile...
 The most important would have to be adding the Bias Capacitors, they are
 missing from the original design.
 The Power/Output Caps and MOSFET will all get you noticeable improvements.
 Replacing the Bias Trim Pots is more to replace a poor quality component with
 one more suitable. If you plan on doing much tube rolling, it is much easier and accurate to adjust.
 Finally, if it still has the poor quality push button on/off switch, just remove it, jumper where it was and turn the whole thing on and off with a power bar.
 If it has the newer toggle switch then it should be OK.

 Here are some component suggestions, they are by no means the only ones that will work but are strongly suggested. I included Mouser Part Numbers.

 Main Power Cap: one needed
 10000uF @ 35 Volts. : 647-UFW1V103MRD
 (this is *very* big and will _just_ fit

 Power Bypass Cap: one needed
 1uF @ 63 volts : 505-MKS21.0/63/10
 (replaces the cap directly behind the power jack)

 Output Caps: two needed
 1000uF @ 25 Volts : 647-UKW1E102MPD

 Bias Cap: two needed
 680uF @ 6.3 Volts : 647-PLE0J681MDO1
 (soldered underneath across the Bias Trim Pot)

 Bias Trim Pot: two needed
 2K multi turn : 652-3266W-1-202LF

 Output MOSFET : two needed
  IRF510 : 844-IRF510PBF

  Some suggested tubes for tube rolling were just covered in a previous post...


----------



## pj_rage

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would be hard for me to rank them in order as they are all worthwhile...
 The most important would have to be adding the Bias Capacitors, they are
 missing from the original design.
 The Power/Output Caps and MOSFET will all get you noticeable improvements.
 Replacing the Bias Trim Pots is more to replace a poor quality component with
 one more suitable. If you plan on doing much tube rolling, it is much easier and accurate to adjust.
 Finally, if it still has the poor quality push button on/off switch, just remove it, jumper where it was and turn the whole thing on and off with a power bar.
 If it has the newer toggle switch then it should be OK.

 Here are some component suggestions, they are by no means the only ones that will work but are strongly suggested. I included Mouser Part Numbers.

 Main Power Cap: one needed
 10000uF @ 35 Volts. : 647-UFW1V103MRD
 (this is *very* big and will just fit

 Power Bypass Cap: one needed
 1uF @ 63 volts : 505-MKS21.0/63/10
 (replaces the cap directly behind the power jack)

 Output Caps: two needed
 1000uF @ 25 Volts : 647-UKW1E102MPD

 Bias Cap: two needed
 680uF @ 6.3 Volts : 647-PLE0J681MDO1
 (soldered underneath across the Bias Trim Pot)

 Bias Trim Pot: two needed
 2K multi turn : 652-3266W-1-202LF

 Output MOSFET : two needed
 IRF510 : 844-IRF510SPBF

 Some suggested tubes for tube rolling were just covered in a previous post..._

 

Wow super helpful post man, thanks a lot! I will definitely do some of these upgrades. Regarding tubes, I already have a few pretty good ones for my EF1 which uses the same tube, so I'll be able to play with those.


----------



## lecky

I got my Indeed G2 today, and tried a few tubes in it and compared it to my modestly modded Bravo (2nd iteration of the first design), swapping tubes between them and adjusting bias each time. 

 The first thing that is immediately apparent is that the Bravo is noisy by comparison - meaning background noise. The G2 is absolutely silent. In the G2 fine detail is more apparent, which could be an effect of the low noise floor, but doesn't seem to be. The modded Bravo also has a warm coloured sound compared to the G2. In all the G2 provides a very obvious upgrade from the Bravo - it absolutely justifies the extra cost - I can really recommend the G2 over the older model. I strongly suspect it's as easy a platform for mods as the original too. 

 As it's a somewhat different design, although along the same lines, perhaps I should start a new thread for it...


----------



## schawo

Did anyone try to use 2 Bravos for fully balanced operation mode with balanced DAC and balanced cans?


----------



## pj_rage

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *schawo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did anyone try to use 2 Bravos for fully balanced operation mode with balanced DAC and balanced cans?_

 

Is it possible to reconfigure them this way?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *schawo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did anyone try to use 2 Bravos for fully balanced operation mode with balanced DAC and balanced cans?_

 

I think the answer is no...

 For balanced operation you need a differential amp.


----------



## azncookiecutter

Just got this amp, and from an initial listen, with the K701s, it matches better than the Little Dot MKV. Not bad for the $40 I paid for it.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *azncookiecutter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got this amp, and from an initial listen, with the K701s, it matches better than the Little Dot MKV. Not bad for the $40 I paid for it._

 

With a few $$ worth of capacitors, it will sound even better!


----------



## Bassivus

I've tried it with AKG701 and it sounded like crap to me... I have tried to like them, in several occasions during 2 months time. At first I thought I try upgrading them but latter I decided to sell them. It could not come close to my White Noise Head Amp


----------



## azncookiecutter

Well, there's still remains a bit of harshness in the upper end, but the bass is nicely filled out now, compared to the MKV. No other amp other than these 2 right now, but it'll hold me over till I get a new amp for them (MKV is a friend's, borrowing it for now).


----------



## Bassivus

In my opinion, Bravo amp did not have better bass but very overblown bass. Actually the hole sound was like someone cranked up the "loudness"... Drum cymbals glare overtake everything happening up there, mids gray and dull, and bass boomy, muddy and overblown. It reminded me of some late 70' mid priced tube radio's with loudness button.
 Also there was considerable distortion after turning the volume more than 10 o clock...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *azncookiecutter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, there's still remains a bit of harshness in the upper end, but the bass is nicely filled out now, compared to the MKV. No other amp other than these 2 right now, but it'll hold me over till I get a new amp for them (MKV is a friend's, borrowing it for now)._

 

If you do the mods Judge Buff and I have done you will be blown away by how good these little amps can sound...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you do the mods Judge Buff and I have done you will be blown away by how good these little amps can sound..._

 

A_A is right about doing the mods. I also cannot overemphasize what a difference there are in *each* individual tube I have. Since I did the tube biasing mod, the tube differences are even more dramatic. Whatever you do, break away from the stock tube... even the Electro Harmonix 6922.

 The PS cap mod(s) will smooth and increase the tightness of the overall bass, but bass is controlled ultimately by the tube itself, so that aspect will be enhanced by the biasing caps.

 I'm getting ready to change out my Silmic II 470s output caps to Muse (BiPolar) 1000s to see what a difference that will make. I'm also going to replace the biasing caps to alum/poly 1000s low esr caps.

 Opening up the bottom of the board does add to the playing field a little... I may add another cap to the PS side (which, IIRC, will divide esr as it increases capacitance). I'm also replacing the switch and the headphone jack.

 If you know which end of the soldering iron to hold, you can do the basic mods. With the "right" tube in the amp, properly biased, you may very well be blown away...


----------



## lecky

I got a Tesla E88CC today (on Buff's recommendation - thanks Buff) and it's already sounding very nice (in the G2, but undoubtedly also so in the original Bravo/Indeed). I can attest to what Buff is saying about the value of getting the right tube, as well as the synergy between a good tube and a big PS cap in delivering a good controlled bass.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got a Tesla E88CC today (on Buff's recommendation - thanks Buff) and it's already sounding very nice (in the G2, but undoubtedly also so in the original Bravo/Indeed). I can attest to what Buff is saying about the value of getting the right tube, as well as the synergy between a good tube and a big PS cap in delivering a good controlled bass._

 

Thanks, Lecky! I'm listening to the same tube I recommended to you, and it's been in the amp since Sunday. It is a very clean and detailed soundstage that is greatly enhanced by the bias caps on the tube mod. I _know_ it sounds good in the G2... all ya need to do is bias it correctly!


----------



## lecky

Do you know whether I'm right in thinking that the bias cap mod is one that would be applicable to the G2 as well? I'm quite happy to copy what I can see, but my technical understanding is nominal, and the differences between the two designs are enough to make me cautious...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lecky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you know whether I'm right in thinking that the bias cap mod is one that would be applicable to the G2 as well? I'm quite happy to copy what I can see, but my technical understanding is nominal, and the differences between the two designs are enough to make me cautious..._

 

Bravo V1 (6922) and Bravo V2 (12AU7) are exactly the same design. The only part that is changed (other than the tube) is the resistor for the current regulator.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, Lecky! I'm listening to the same tube I recommended to you, and it's been in the amp since Sunday. It is a very clean and detailed soundstage that is greatly enhanced by the bias caps on the tube mod. I know it sounds good in the G2... all ya need to do is bias it correctly!_

 

I designed a new version of this amp. I would say that I included all of the mods from these threads, but if the amp is designed properly to begin with, these mods would already be in place...
 My plan is to use a 2"x 4" heat sink on each side, the heat sink should get hot for the MOSFET to sound it's best, but not so hot as to burn you if you touch it.
 The input circuit is re-designed, the Bias circuit is proper, the tube has an adjustable constant current source for fine tuning each tube, a separate adjustable voltage regulator for the tube heater so you can use 6v, 7v and 12v tubes...and a Nelson Pass designed unregulated power supply in a separate and matching chassis. You don't need a regulated power supply for these amps because their current draw is constant.


----------



## schawo

Did anyone try to use E80CC tubes instead of the original 12AU7 for the Bravo V2?


----------



## StevieDvd

I've not been one to lust after tube amps as they always seem too old fashioned to me  But with one as small and cheap as this I've bought one from Ebay (Bravo v2) so will hopefully see how much fun I can have with this tube swapping malarkey.

 I'll be watching you lot for tips so keep piling in with ideas and suggestions. 

 Steve


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bravo V1 (6922) and Bravo V2 (12AU7) are exactly the same design. The only part that is changed (other than the tube) is the resistor for the current regulator._

 

The G2 is the latest Indeed hybrid.

 Take a look at it, A_A! You da engineer, I'm just a neophyte...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *StevieDvd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've not been one to lust after tube amps as they always seem too old fashioned to me  But with one as small and cheap as this I've bought one from Ebay (Bravo v2) so will hopefully see how much fun I can have with this tube swapping malarkey.

 I'll be watching you lot for tips so keep piling in with ideas and suggestions. 

 Steve 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Steve, do the mods, then roll tubes. I am a convert. The tube bias mod is primo (IMO), then the PS reservoir, etc, etc.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I designed a new version of this amp. I would say that I included all of the mods from these threads, but if the amp is designed properly to begin with, these mods would already be in place...
 My plan is to use a 2"x 4" heat sink on each side, the heat sink should get hot for the MOSFET to sound it's best, but not so hot as to burn you if you touch it.
 The input circuit is re-designed, the Bias circuit is proper, the tube has an adjustable constant current source for fine tuning each tube, a separate adjustable voltage regulator for the tube heater so you can use 6v, 7v and 12v tubes...and a Nelson Pass designed unregulated power supply in a separate and matching chassis. You don't need a regulated power supply for these amps because their current draw is constant._

 

I can't wait to see a prototype...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The G2 is the latest Indeed hybrid.

 Take a look at it, A_A! You da engineer, I'm just a neophyte..._

 

I keep getting confused when people talk about the Indeed in the Bravo thread and the Bravo in the Indeed thread...

 Anyway, the G2 is just SSDD.
 Looks like all they did was change the layout and add a input switch and muting circuit. I would love to get some detailed pictures so I can reverse engineer it...
 So far all of these Hybrid Amps have been Sijosae's designs from 2005 and earlier.


----------



## john57

Also the G2 has more heatsink surface area.


----------



## lecky

A_A, I'll make some photos of the G2 for you.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *john57* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also the G2 has more heatsink surface area._

 

That extra heat sink they have grafted on at the back is next to useless...it would be interesting to see what the temperature of the main heat sink is compared to the extra heat sink. I'll bet that the bolt that connects the two does not transfer much heat. Anyone have a laser thermometer?


----------



## oohms

From my time playing with the amp, i'll list the mods i've done in order of most improvement to least

 1. Change mosfet to IRF510 or similar
 2. Buy more tubes for it and test them out
 3. Change gate resistors from 220 ohms to 120 or so (only if you have upgraded the mosfet)
 4. Do the crosstalk mod (pic below - only for the 12au7 version)
 5. Experiment with output resistor values (stock: 47 ohms, try 68 ohms)
 6. Swap passive components for better quality ones


 Here is the crosstalk improvement mod - it ONLY works with the 12au7 version!
 Cut the traces marked in red and connect the 2 points where the blue 'wire' is





 Taken from:
Rock Grotto Audio Forum - For Headphones - Headphone Amps - Amplifiers - X-Can V2 - Musical Fidelity - headphone Discussion - Amplifier Discussion - DIY - Amplifier Kits - Projects - SCHA - Sennheiser - Beyer - Grado - Audio Technica - Headphone amp


----------



## shaneotool

I don't really know what's going on these last few pages with the mod discussion on these amps, but I have a stock one - 12AU7 version - and it sounds great.

 I dont have a soldering iron and don't plan on doing anything to it - just tought I'd throw this post in there in case someone reading this thread thinks you have to do all kind of work to make it sound good...


----------



## schawo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shaneotool* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't really know what's going on these last few pages with the mod discussion on these amps, but I have a stock one - 12AU7 version - and it sounds great.

 I dont have a soldering iron and don't plan on doing anything to it - just tought I'd throw this post in there in case someone reading this thread thinks you have to do all kind of work to make it sound good..._

 

It sounds good, but you can make it sound great.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oohms* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From my time playing with the amp, i'll list the mods i've done in order of most improvement to least

 1. Change mosfet to IRF510 or similar
 2. Buy more tubes for it and test them out
 3. Change gate resistors from 220 ohms to 120 or so (only if you have upgraded the mosfet)
 4. Do the crosstalk mod (pic below - only for the 12au7 version)
 5. Experiment with output resistor values (stock: 47 ohms, try 68 ohms)
 6. Swap passive components for better quality ones


 Here is the crosstalk improvement mod - it ONLY works with the 12au7 version!
 Cut the traces marked in red and connect the 2 points where the blue 'wire' is





 Taken from:
Rock Grotto Audio Forum - For Headphones - Headphone Amps - Amplifiers - X-Can V2 - Musical Fidelity - headphone Discussion - Amplifier Discussion - DIY - Amplifier Kits - Projects - SCHA - Sennheiser - Beyer - Grado - Audio Technica - Headphone amp _

 

If you do the Bias Cap mod you will have a new #1 mod...

 I have IRF510 in mine, I'll try dropping the gate resistor to 150R and see how it sounds. Technically, you don't always need a gate resistor, but it enhances stability in most cases. Maybe I'll try with no gate resistor and see if it stays stable...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you do the Bias Cap mod you will have a new #1 mod...

 I have IRF510 in mine, I'll try dropping the gate resistor to 150R and see how it sounds. Technically, you don't always need a gate resistor, but it enhances stability in most cases. Maybe I'll try with no gate resistor and see if it stays stable..._

 

I just had a look at the 12AU7 thread you linked to and I see they just connected the cathode directly to ground and don't use any bias...the cap on the input is there because there will be quite a bit of current wanting to flow out of the grid...they really screwed up the design even if it does sound good...


----------



## Judge Buff

I have a totally *new sounding* amp tonight. 

 First I replaced my inconsistent switch with this one from Mouser. I had to splay the legs a little to get it to fit in the holes, but it wasn't a hassle. Feels quite solid and its specs say 30K repetitions.

 I've used 16V 470uF Silmic II output caps for months with no probs and great sound. I wanted to go back to 1000uF caps and I decided on Nichicon ES Bi-Polar (Muse) at 16V. Their diameter just fits and I've been breaking them in all evening. I like the KW that A_A recommends (I have a 10K one as my PS reservoir.), but some folks swear by Muses like others swear by Black Gates. I had to try them...

 I also diverged from A_A on my bias caps a _little_. I went with the Nichicon R7 Functional Polymers, which are new at Mouser, in a 1000uF. I really don't know if size makes a actual difference here, but A_A explained them as reservoirs and I like *big* reservoirs.

 After I conduct bond hearings in the morning, I'm going to the Shack for the MOSFETS! More to come...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Judge Buff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a totally *new sounding* amp tonight. 

 First I replaced my inconsistent switch with this one from Mouser. I had to splay the legs a little to get it to fit in the holes, but it wasn't a hassle. Feels quite solid and its specs say 30K repetitions.

 I've used 16V 470uF Silmic II output caps for months with no probs and great sound. I wanted to go back to 1000uF caps and I decided on Nichicon ES Bi-Polar (Muse) at 16V. Their diameter just fits and I've been breaking them in all evening. I like the KW that A_A recommends (I have a 10K one as my PS reservoir.), but some folks swear by Muses like others swear by Black Gates. I had to try them...

 I also diverged from A_A on my bias caps a little. I went with the Nichicon R7 Functional Polymers, which are new at Mouser, in a 1000uF. I really don't know if size makes a actual difference here, but A_A explained them as reservoirs and I like *big* reservoirs.

 After I conduct bond hearings in the morning, I'm going to the Shack for the MOSFETS! More to come..._

 


 I changed by Bias Pots and MOSFETs yesterday...much easier now to set my bias. The IRF510 made a big difference in the top end, more than I suspected it would. It really brought the top end forward. Bells have more "tinkle", snares have more "snap". I even ended up turn my BBE enhancement off.
 I guess I will have to burn it in for a few more days before I get the final sound for this mod...

 A note for people doing these mods...
 If you are having trouble with the tracks lifting off the board you might be using too much heat. I set my iron for 500 degrees and I didn't have any tracks lift.


----------



## Judge Buff

I got my IRF510s this morning, but I'm holding off on changing-out the MOSFETS until I _feel_ a need to change them. This little amp sounds *so fine* right now with a CBS rebranded Siemens ECC88 in it. 

 Crystalline highs, smooth mids and deep bass; expansive stage with a wonderful 3D feel where the instruments "move" up, down, forward, back... I'm truly just in awe of the electronic gestalt I'm experiencing this afternoon! Lecky is another head-fier that uses the term "synergy" in the same manner that I use it. What I have together right now needs no other tweaking at this moment. 

 Tomorrow, it may be different, but for now, it's perfect and you don't screw around with perfection...


----------



## xtlee

One thing I noticed is that this amp has a lot of gain. The true output power is not shown in the specifications. Anyone know what this amp puts out in wattage?


----------



## schawo

According to the specs the amount of gain is 30dB. That is about 1000mW without knowing the target impedance.


----------



## xtlee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would be hard for me to rank them in order as they are all worthwhile...
 The most important would have to be adding the Bias Capacitors, they are
 missing from the original design.
 The Power/Output Caps and MOSFET will all get you noticeable improvements.
 Replacing the Bias Trim Pots is more to replace a poor quality component with
 one more suitable. If you plan on doing much tube rolling, it is much easier and accurate to adjust.
 Finally, if it still has the poor quality push button on/off switch, just remove it, jumper where it was and turn the whole thing on and off with a power bar.
 If it has the newer toggle switch then it should be OK.

 Here are some component suggestions, they are by no means the only ones that will work but are strongly suggested. I included Mouser Part Numbers.

 Power Bypass Cap: one needed
 1uF @ 63 volts : 505-MKS21.0/63/10
 (replaces the cap directly behind the power jack)
_

 

What about the other little ceramic cap between the on/off switch ad the mosfet? What's that one used for and is it the same value as the other one?

 I grabbed the schematic and I don't see those 2 components in it.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xtlee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What about the other little ceramic cap between the on/off switch ad the mosfet? What's that one used for and is it the same value as the other one?

 I grabbed the schematic and I don't see those 2 components in it._

 

The Ceramic cap directly behind the power jack is the power HF bypass cap. You can change this one to a 1uF film cap if you like...a Wima MKS2 is a good choice here. The other ceramic cap beside the power switch is for arc suppression when you turn the switch on and off. It prolongs the life of the switch. The only problem is the stock switch is underrated and poor quality. You would do better to change the switch than bother with that cap. I just removed my switch and replaced it with a jumper. I turn everything off with a power bar anyway.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xtlee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One thing I noticed is that this amp has a lot of gain. The true output power is not shown in the specifications. Anyone know what this amp puts out in wattage?_

 

I always love this question...
 The theoretical maximum power output for this amp is about 3.5 watts. In reality it is going to be much lower. Probably more like 1 watt.
 If you have a true RMS volt meter you can figure it out for yourself...
 Just drive the amp with a steady 1kHz test tone and measure the AC volts at the negative side of the output cap. You can either have your headphones connected or a dummy load for exact measurements. Lets say you measured 10 volts AC (true RMS). Now lets say you were using Grado cans at 32 ohms. Now add that to the 47 ohm resistor in the output path for 79 ohms. Divide your output voltage (10 volts) by your output load (79 ohms) and you get .126 mA of current. Thats pretty close to the max .150mA of maximum current available. Now multiply the output current by the output voltage.
 You get about 1.26 watts. Looks like the Amp was designed for 80 ohm loads and can produce about 1.5 watts maximum. If you are using higher impedance cans like AKG then your power will be less because you will run out of voltage before you get close to the current limit. If you have lower impedance cans like my 16 ohm ear buds you will hit the current limit and your power will be less as well. Remember also that the resistor in the output path functions as a voltage divider as well so your 32 ohm cans will get a little less than half the actual output power....


----------



## pj_rage

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Avro_Arrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I always love this question...
 The theoretical maximum power output for this amp is about 3.5 watts. In reality it is going to be much lower. Probably more like 1 watt.
 If you have a true RMS volt meter you can figure it out for yourself...
 Just drive the amp with a steady 1kHz test tone and measure the AC volts at the negative side of the output cap. You can either have your headphones connected or a dummy load for exact measurements. Lets say you measured 10 volts AC (true RMS). Now lets say you were using Grado cans at 32 ohms. Now add that to the 47 ohm resistor in the output path for 79 ohms. Divide your output voltage (10 volts) by your output load (79 ohms) and you get .126 mA of current. Thats pretty close to the max .150mA of maximum current available. Now multiply the output current by the output voltage.
 You get about 1.26 watts. Looks like the Amp was designed for 80 ohm loads and can produce about 1.5 watts maximum. If you are using higher impedance cans like AKG then your power will be less because you will run out of voltage before you get close to the current limit. If you have lower impedance cans like my 16 ohm ear buds you will hit the current limit and your power will be less as well. Remember also that the resistor in the output path functions as a voltage divider as well so your 32 ohm cans will get a little less than half the actual output power...._

 

Why do you "run out of voltage" with higher impedance cans?

 Are you basically saying that since Power = Voltage^2 / Resistance (impedance), if V (max) is constant, then as R (load) increases, the output power is less and would need more V to maintain the same power? I'm guessing this is what you mean by "running out of voltage"? Maybe the next logical question would be, how hard would it be to modify the unit for higher voltage, and therefore more power to higher impedance loads?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pj_rage* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why do you "run out of voltage" with higher impedance cans?

 Are you basically saying that since Power = Voltage^2 / Resistance (impedance), if V (max) is constant, then as R (load) increases, the output power is less and would need more V to maintain the same power? I'm guessing this is what you mean by "running out of voltage"? Maybe the next logical question would be, how hard would it be to modify the unit for higher voltage, and therefore more power to higher impedance loads?_

 

yes, that is what I am saying...I try to keep things in simple terms most people can relate to...

 Well, to run at higher voltage...The tube can run at up to 300 volts or so if my memory is correct, the MOSFET is good up to 100 volts or so depending on which one you have (I changed mine to IRF510 which is good to 100 volts). Oh course you will would have to change your electrolytics to reflect the higher voltages too and you would need bigger heat sinks...maybe it would just be easier to buy a different amp...


----------



## xtlee

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried a PCC88/7DJ8 tube in these amps? Apparently, the only difference is in the heater requiring 7 volts. That's a 0.7 volt difference from the regular 6DJ8 tube. There are claims that most circuits will accommodate the tube and work just fine. Like here:
   
  http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-7dj8.html


----------



## Judge Buff

^ I have several that work just fine! I even have one of these right here that is sweet, sweet, sweet:
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/1xNOS-Siemens-PCC88-6922-7DJ8-Germany-NIB-/150440347210?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2306f1864a


----------



## Crookshank

What type of plug used in Bravo?


----------



## Noobiiee

What are the sound signatures of different tubes? I got one of these bad bois on the way. I'm considering getting the ecc88 since a few ppl have been mentioning it. How do they sound compared to the stock tube? I'm a total newb in amp modding so tube rolling is probaly the furthest I'm doing for now. Another question? Which manufaturer is better? Tesla or Siemens?
   
  Thanks guys.


----------



## xtlee

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *pj_rage* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 A couple of questions for you A_A.
   
  The IRF510s you have listed here are the "SPBF" version which seem to be the surface mount type without the screw hole. The "PBF" version is of the same type as the IRF630s that are in the amp. Pictures are available on digi-key here of the "SPBF and PBF versions since mouser does not have any pictures.
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510SPBF-ND
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510PBF-ND
   
  Second, about the bias caps. Back in the thread, someone posted these caps at 470uf:
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=493-3066-ND&itemSeq=85245622&uq=634088571800335270
   
  What is the difference between these and the 680uf caps you listed?
   
  And lastly, the WIMA caps you listed above are back ordered at mouser. Any other alternatives that are just as good?


----------



## xtlee

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *pj_rage* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 A couple of questions for you A_A.
   
  The IRF510s you have listed here are the "SPBF" version which seem to be the surface mount type without the screw hole. The "PBF" version is of the same type as the IRF630s that are in the amp. Pictures are available on digi-key here of the "SPBF and PBF versions since mouser does not have any pictures.
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510SPBF-ND
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510PBF-ND
   
  Second, about the bias caps. Back in the thread, someone posted these caps at 470uf:
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=493-3066-ND&itemSeq=85245622&uq=634088571800335270
   
  What is the difference between these and the 680uf caps you listed?
   
  And lastly, the WIMA caps you listed above are back ordered at mouser. Any other alternatives that are just as good?


----------



## xtlee

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *pj_rage* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 A couple of questions for you A_A.
   
  The IRF510s you have listed here are the "SPBF" version which seem to be the surface mount type without the screw hole. The "PBF" version is of the same type as the IRF630s that are in the amp. Pictures are available on digi-key here of the "SPBF and PBF versions since mouser does not have any pictures.
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510SPBF-ND
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510PBF-ND
   
  Second, about the bias caps. Back in the thread, someone posted these caps at 470uf:
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=493-3066-ND&itemSeq=85245622&uq=634088571800335270
   
  What is the difference between these and the 680uf caps you listed?
   
  And lastly, the WIMA caps you listed above are back ordered at mouser. Any other alternatives that are just as good?


----------



## coolice

guys, how do i know if the tube compatible with this amp by looking at the spec?


----------



## xtlee

I got a couple of 6922 tubes on the way. Just looking at mouser for the upgrades now. I'm anxious to hear the difference in these other tubes.


----------



## xtlee

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *pj_rage* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 
   
  ***- I had some trouble posting this yesterday. I got a message saying that my posts had to be accepted by a moderator since I am a new member. Today, I can post. This might come up as a double post later on. -***
   
  A couple of questions for you A_A.
   
  The IRF510s you have listed here are the "SPBF" version which seem to be the surface mount type without the screw hole. The "PBF" version is of the same type as the IRF630s that are in the amp. Pictures are available on digi-key here of the "SPBF and PBF versions since mouser does not have any pictures.
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510SPBF-ND
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510PBF-ND
   
  Second, about the bias caps. Back in the thread, someone posted these caps at 470uf:
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=493-3066-ND&itemSeq=85245622&uq=634088571800335270
   
  What is the difference between these and the 680uf caps you listed?
   
  And lastly, the WIMA caps you listed above are back ordered at mouser. Any other alternatives that are just as good?


----------



## xtlee

A couple of questions for you A_A.
   
  The IRF510s you have listed on page 50 of the thread, are the "SPBF" version which seem to be the surface mount type without the screw hole. The "PBF" version is of the same type as the IRF630s that are in the amp. Pictures are available on digi-key here of the "SPBF and PBF versions since mouser does not have any pictures.
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510SPBF-ND
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=IRF510PBF-ND
   
  Second, about the bias caps. Back in the thread, someone posted these caps at 470uf:
   
  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=493-3066-ND&itemSeq=85245622&uq=634088571800335270
   
  What is the difference between these and the 680uf caps you listed?
   
  And lastly, the WIMA caps you listed are back ordered at mouser. Any other alternatives that are just as good?
  http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2-10-63-10/?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYl0Njt3oLGjWQ==


----------



## Avro_Arrow

The IRF510 should be the PBF version, not the surface mount version...must have clicked of the wrong one for the link...
   
  The Bias Cap I suggested has very low ESR. Any low ESR cap of a value bigger than 100uF should produce a noticeable difference.
  I have a 680uF @10 volt Panasonic cap in mine until I do my next parts order...
   
  The Bypass cap is a tight fit so you can't go bigger. You can use a Vishay/BC 1uF from Digi-Key
  I have the Vishay in mine...it was left over from a previous build.
  Maybe Mouser has the same cap.
  
  Quote: 





xtlee said:


> A couple of questions for you A_A.
> 
> The IRF510s you have listed on page 50 of the thread, are the "SPBF" version which seem to be the surface mount type without the screw hole. The "PBF" version is of the same type as the IRF630s that are in the amp. Pictures are available on digi-key here of the "SPBF and PBF versions since mouser does not have any pictures.
> 
> ...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I'm probably not the best person to answer this...but...
   
  If the tube has the same pin out and uses 150mA for the heater at 6.3 or 7 volts
  it has a good chance of working. If it has a 300mA heater it has no chance of working
  because the heater is part of the circuit that biases the MOSFET and the current source
  is set at 150mA. If it needs 12.6 volts for the heater it will probably upset the MOSFET.
  If you want to experiment, just use an inexpensive tube of a type you would like to try
  and see what happens. The worst that could happen is that the whole thing will catch
  on fire and burn your house down but I think it is more likely that it will either work
  or not but you will not damage anything by trying...
   
  Anyone else have a more intelligent answer? I'm far from a tube expert...
  
  Quote: 





coolice said:


> guys, how do i know if the tube compatible with this amp by looking at the spec?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





noobiiee said:


> What are the sound signatures of different tubes? I got one of these bad bois on the way. I'm considering getting the ecc88 since a few ppl have been mentioning it. How do they sound compared to the stock tube? I'm a total newb in amp modding so tube rolling is probaly the furthest I'm doing for now. Another question? Which manufaturer is better? Tesla or Siemens?
> 
> Thanks guys.


 

 Old school Teslas sound a lot like Siemens. The big four of old school tubes are Amperex (Philips), Siemens, Mullards and Telefunken. If you want info on sound signatures, Google each tube type (ECC88, E88CC, etc.) and start reading. There's a lot of info in this thread and the Indeed thread, too. The ECC88 is the European designation for the American 6dj8, the E88CC is Euro for the American 6922... You gotta read *all* the tube sites.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I think this is the same thing...just a different part #

 http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2-1-63-5T/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvOcEq4GH1AApISu39GQuPNrHPZfaTFZMc%3d
   
  Quote: 





xtlee said:


> A couple of questions for you A_A.
> 
> The IRF510s you have listed on page 50 of the thread, are the "SPBF" version which seem to be the surface mount type without the screw hole. The "PBF" version is of the same type as the IRF630s that are in the amp. Pictures are available on digi-key here of the "SPBF and PBF versions since mouser does not have any pictures.
> 
> ...


----------



## xtlee

The difference in those caps is the original is 5% tolerance and the new link you posted has a 10% tolerance.
   
  On another note, my amp started making noise in the right channel. I thought it was a tube pin problem but it turned out to be a bias problem. I had 7 volts in the right channel and 8 volts in the left at the output cap. I readjusted to 12.04 volts which was the closest I could get. What a difference now. Not only is the noise all gone but the dynamics have opened up dramatically. The sound stage is way out there now and I can hear things I couldn't before. I guess the mods even make it better.
   
  I'm gonna buy those 10% caps and get my order filled. I don't think a 5% tolerance will make a difference for the bypass cap.
   
  Also A_A, you mention that the big PS filter cap just fits. Does it fit through the plastic cover where the original pops out of? Or does it just fit the board?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I don't think the difference in tolerance is going to make any difference...it does not need to be an exact value.
  The power bypass cap (the one right behind the power connector) is the same height as the power connector.
  The 10,000uF power cap (the one between the power connector and power switch) that Judge Buff is using is
  as tall as the tube so you will not be able to use the top plastic cover if you install this mod. 
  Also installing the Bias caps is going to make the bottom plastic useless as well. You end up
  with an amp that sits up on little legs.
  You can set the Bias for 17 volts on the anode of the tube for each channel. After listening for a while it seems to
  give the best sound even if it does not give the largest voltage swing. Anywhere between 15 and 17 volts at the 
  anode seems to work well.
   
  Here is a picture of mine...I have not installed the upgraded electrolytics yet, they will have to wait for my next
  order. I have upgraded the MOSFET to IRF510, Changed the Bias adjust to 2K multi turn pots, replace the power
  bypass cap with 1uF Film and installed the Bias caps (they are on the bottom of the board).
   

  
  Quote: 





xtlee said:


> The difference in those caps is the original is 5% tolerance and the new link you posted has a 10% tolerance.
> 
> On another note, my amp started making noise in the right channel. I thought it was a tube pin problem but it turned out to be a bias problem. I had 7 volts in the right channel and 8 volts in the left at the output cap. I readjusted to 12.04 volts which was the closest I could get. What a difference now. Not only is the noise all gone but the dynamics have opened up dramatically. The sound stage is way out there now and I can hear things I couldn't before. I guess the mods even make it better.
> 
> ...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





xtlee said:


> Also A_A, you mention that the big PS filter cap just fits. Does it fit through the plastic cover where the original pops out of? Or does it just fit the board?


 
  The diameter of the PS reservoir cap on my board can't be "fatter" (diameter) than 22mm. The 10K Nichicon KZ just fits between the stock switch and the PS jack.


----------



## Joe Presto

I've been using this amp sporadically, but since hanging it on the wall next to my bed with blu-tac, it's getting far more use!
   
  I used a guide on the Rock Grotto Audio Forum (link) to set the bias, however regardless of the bias, these is an ever present hiss/static; would replacing the bias trim pots help alleviate the problem, or could there be another cause?


----------



## xtlee

A_A, I used the Bias method you mentioned back in this thread. Adjusting the trim pots so the voltage at the output cap is half the supply voltage. What is this method compared to the 16-17v at the cathode method?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





joe presto said:


> I've been using this amp sporadically, but since hanging it on the wall next to my bed with blu-tac, it's getting far more use!
> 
> I used a guide on the Rock Grotto Audio Forum (link) to set the bias, however regardless of the bias, these is an ever present hiss/static; would replacing the bias trim pots help alleviate the problem, or could there be another cause?


 

 My guess is it's your power supply (adapter). The Bravo adapter is notorious for being noisy. A larger PS cap may quiet it some.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Setting the Bias Point is really a compromise between what is best for the tube and what is best for the output stage.
  The output stage is a voltage follower and the Bias point for this is usually set to 1/2 the supply voltage as measured
  at the + side of the output cap. If you were building a Szekeres this is how it would be adjusted. The Bias point for the tube
  is a little more tricky. Because the greater the difference in voltage between the cathode and anode the better the tube works,
  you want to keep the anode as high as possible while still allowing enough room for the voltage to swing. Somewheres up around
  3/4 of the B+ voltage is where the Anode voltage is set. The design notes I saw for this amp stated that the desired Bias
  point was .65 to .7 of the supply voltage. This would give you between 15.6 and 16.8 volts at the Anode. If I remember
  correctly, when I had my amp set for 1/2 supply at the output cap, I had about 15 volts on the Anode. Right now,
  with my Anode up around 17 volts, I get 13.5 volts at the cap so it's not a big difference. I'd just go with whatever sounds
  best to you somewhere in this range.
   
  Maybe someone with a better understanding of tubes can give a better explanation of how to bias the tube...
  
  Quote: 





xtlee said:


> A_A, I used the Bias method you mentioned back in this thread. Adjusting the trim pots so the voltage at the output cap is half the supply voltage. What is this method compared to the 16-17v at the cathode method?


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> My guess is it's your power supply (adapter). The Bravo adapter is notorious for being noisy. A larger PS cap may quiet it some.


 

 Thanks JB! I tried a different tube, can, 3.5mm adaptor and powerplug last night and that setup seemed to generate less hiss, I'll have to see which components made a difference, but I'll see if I can get a new power supply too. Either way, I think I'll be needing a soldering iron soon!


----------



## pj_rage

I got my bravo v2 two days ago, but got a chance to listen yesterday.  I'm very impressed with this little amp!  The output power is jaw dropping.  It drives the K702 and DT880/600s with absolute ease and PLENTY of power left over.  I really can't go above 10 o'clock on the volume knob with either of them (10 o'clock being pretty darn loud).  It sounds nice and clear with a good soundstage too.  I didn't expect it to be so powerful or to sound quite as good as it does.  I have a bagful of goodies on the way from mouser as well per AA's recommendations, so it's likely it will sound even better.  I also have a number of 12AU7 tubes here for my EF1 that I'll be able to play with, but even the stock tube doesn't sound bad.
   
  One thing that irks me a little bit is that it seems that the channel balance isn't quite perfect.  It's very close, but seems to favor the left channel slightly.  I don't think it's due to a low volume setting, as I'm pretty well away from the lower points when noticing it, at about 9:00-9:30 on the knob.  It's most noticeable with the K702, and a little less noticeable with the DT880/600s.  Perhaps the parts I'm changing out will help, if not I think I'm going to try to look into this further and see what might be the cause.  It is slight, but I would like to correct it nonetheless as it's a little bit annoying to think/worry about for an otherwise good sounding amp.


----------



## mcnoiserdc

Quote: 





pj_rage said:


> I got my bravo v2 two days ago, but got a chance to listen yesterday.  I'm very impressed with this little amp!  The output power is jaw dropping.  It drives the K702 and DT880/600s with absolute ease and PLENTY of power left over.  I really can't go above 10 o'clock on the volume knob with either of them (10 o'clock being pretty darn loud).  It sounds nice and clear with a good soundstage too.  I didn't expect it to be so powerful or to sound quite as good as it does.  I have a bagful of goodies on the way from mouser as well per AA's recommendations, so it's likely it will sound even better.  I also have a number of 12AU7 tubes here for my EF1 that I'll be able to play with, but even the stock tube doesn't sound bad.
> 
> One thing that irks me a little bit is that it seems that the channel balance isn't quite perfect.  It's very close, but seems to favor the left channel slightly.  I don't think it's due to a low volume setting, as I'm pretty well away from the lower points when noticing it, at about 9:00-9:30 on the knob.  It's most noticeable with the K702, and a little less noticeable with the DT880/600s.  Perhaps the parts I'm changing out will help, if not I think I'm going to try to look into this further and see what might be the cause.  It is slight, but I would like to correct it nonetheless as it's a little bit annoying to think/worry about for an otherwise good sounding amp.


 

 can you please do me a favor?
  If so, How do you compare your mk III with the bravo v2 for HD600?
  I'm asking because I may be upgrading and I'm affraid I won't get any advantage


----------



## Avro_Arrow

My channel balance is a little off too. My guess is the constant current source for the tube isn't balanced exactly. None of the parts I changed improved the channel balance.
  I just set my balance one click off center on my sound card. The channel balance could be related to the tube as well, I guess, I have not tried any different tubes yet either.
   
  The channel balance at very low volume is the fault of the volume pot and is common in this part.
   
  Quote: 





pj_rage said:


> I got my bravo v2 two days ago, but got a chance to listen yesterday.  I'm very impressed with this little amp!  The output power is jaw dropping.  It drives the K702 and DT880/600s with absolute ease and PLENTY of power left over.  I really can't go above 10 o'clock on the volume knob with either of them (10 o'clock being pretty darn loud).  It sounds nice and clear with a good soundstage too.  I didn't expect it to be so powerful or to sound quite as good as it does.  I have a bagful of goodies on the way from mouser as well per AA's recommendations, so it's likely it will sound even better.  I also have a number of 12AU7 tubes here for my EF1 that I'll be able to play with, but even the stock tube doesn't sound bad.
> 
> One thing that irks me a little bit is that it seems that the channel balance isn't quite perfect.  It's very close, but seems to favor the left channel slightly.  I don't think it's due to a low volume setting, as I'm pretty well away from the lower points when noticing it, at about 9:00-9:30 on the knob.  It's most noticeable with the K702, and a little less noticeable with the DT880/600s.  Perhaps the parts I'm changing out will help, if not I think I'm going to try to look into this further and see what might be the cause.  It is slight, but I would like to correct it nonetheless as it's a little bit annoying to think/worry about for an otherwise good sounding amp.


----------



## pj_rage

I'll let you know if changing tubes helps the balance.  Do you have any other thoughts for parts to check/change to balance it better?  Which side does yours favor before changing balance settings on your computer?  If it's also left, maybe there is a problem with the design that we can fix.
   
  I actually haven't tried this amp with the HD600s yet as I don't listen to those as much.  I'll try a little tonight between the two and report back.  I did try the bravo vs MKIII a little bit with the DT880/600s and there is definitely a difference in sound signature, the MKIII being warmer.  I think I preferred the MKIII, but (outside of the channel imbalance) in the end it may come down to personal preference.  "Better" or "upgrade" IMO is a tough unless there is a glaring problem that is there on one and not the other, which I didn't particularly notice, but I'll listen more closely and try specifically with the HD600 too.


----------



## pj_rage

Changing tubes seems to have cleared up the imbalance issue!  Sweet!  Must be poor QA or something with the cheap tubes.


----------



## pj_rage

Now that I've gotten rid of the imbalance, I'm enjoying this amp even more.  I've been using a GE Great Britain 12AU7 (mullard short plate) and it sounds great.   I can't believe what you get for ~$50-60 shipped.  This has to be one of the best bargains in headphone amplifiers.


----------



## mcnoiserdc

Quote: 





pj_rage said:


> Now that I've gotten rid of the imbalance, I'm enjoying this amp even more.  I've been using a GE Great Britain 12AU7 (mullard short plate) and it sounds great.   I can't believe what you get for ~$50-60 shipped.  This has to be one of the best bargains in headphone amplifiers.


 

 hi!
  Still waiting for the comparison with hd 600 between bravo tube and mk III


----------



## pj_rage

I did briefly listen to both with the HD600 (stock cable) and D4 DAC.  The MKIII I thought had a little more spacious and natural soundstage, had more bass and lower mids, and was a little warmer and maybe even more laid back overall.  The differences between the two were slight and not huge, and may be more impacted by tubes than anything else (the MKIII has stock power tubes and M8100 drivers, the bravo had a GE Great Britain (short tube mullard) 12AU7).  The bravo has way more power even with the MKIII at max gain, but the MKIII has absolutely no problem driving the HD600 way beyond what your ears (and probably the drivers) can take too.
   
  Probably the most noticeable difference to spot was the bass, which had more quantity on the MKIII, but they really are pretty close sounding overall.  I don't know how good you are with listening critically or whatever, but at first listen, they do sound pretty similar (not a night/day in-your-face difference in my opinion).  I had to A/B a bit to really start to notice the differences.  Maybe I don't have golden ears, or maybe I suck at listening critically, or maybe they really are just that close?  I'm not sure.
   
  Really, I thought both sounded very good.  I might imagine that some people would prefer the bravo and some would prefer the MKIII - that is, they both sound very good to my ears, but I'm not sure one or the other is "better", just different.  My preference was the MKIII, but not by a alot.  I think this says more about the bravo than the MKIII anyway.  If you already own the bravo, I think it's a tough decision whether or not to get the MKIII.  The MKIII definitely looks much better / cleaner / more professional, and is better put together, and IMO does sound a little better too.  But the bravo has insane power output, is kind of cool to look at as well, is very cheap, and sounds surprisingly good in my opinion.
   
  I don't know if that helps, but there ya go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I kind of wanted to given another listening session before saying much because I didn't listen very long to make those conclusions.  I'll try to listen again this weekend and I'll let you know if any of my opinions change.


----------



## mcnoiserdc

Quote: 





pj_rage said:


> I did briefly listen to both with the HD600 (stock cable) and D4 DAC.  The MKIII I thought had a little more spacious and natural soundstage, had more bass and lower mids, and was a little warmer and maybe even more laid back overall.  The differences between the two were slight and not huge, and may be more impacted by tubes than anything else (the MKIII has stock power tubes and M8100 drivers, the bravo had a GE Great Britain (short tube mullard) 12AU7).  The bravo has way more power even with the MKIII at max gain, but the MKIII has absolutely no problem driving the HD600 way beyond what your ears (and probably the drivers) can take too.
> 
> Probably the most noticeable difference to spot was the bass, which had more quantity on the MKIII, but they really are pretty close sounding overall.  I don't know how good you are with listening critically or whatever, but at first listen, they do sound pretty similar (not a night/day in your face difference in my opinion).  I had to A/B a bit to really start to notice the differences.  Maybe I don't have golden ears, or maybe I suck at listening critically, or maybe they really are just that close?  I'm not sure.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you. yes I believe that the difference is where you say as my bass is low too, every headphone I have (cheap ones) has more bass than my hd600.
  Everyone talks about soundstage but on mine it seems small


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I'll be very interested to hear your opinion after you do the mods. The Bias cap mod alone will tighten up your bass and improve your sound stage...maybe even more
  than a tube swap.
  By the way, thanks for the feedback about the channel imbalance...I kind of suspected it was from the low quality tube, I'll be looking to upgrade it next.
  I have some 100 ohm gate resistor to swap in, they are supposed to improve the high end with IRF510. The IRF630 sounds better with higher gate resistor
  so I wound not bother to swap them if you stay with the original MOSFETs.
  
  Quote: 





pj_rage said:


> I did briefly listen to both with the HD600 (stock cable) and D4 DAC.  The MKIII I thought had a little more spacious and natural soundstage, had more bass and lower mids, and was a little warmer and maybe even more laid back overall.  The differences between the two were slight and not huge, and may be more impacted by tubes than anything else (the MKIII has stock power tubes and M8100 drivers, the bravo had a GE Great Britain (short tube mullard) 12AU7).  The bravo has way more power even with the MKIII at max gain, but the MKIII has absolutely no problem driving the HD600 way beyond what your ears (and probably the drivers) can take too.
> 
> Probably the most noticeable difference to spot was the bass, which had more quantity on the MKIII, but they really are pretty close sounding overall.  I don't know how good you are with listening critically or whatever, but at first listen, they do sound pretty similar (not a night/day in-your-face difference in my opinion).  I had to A/B a bit to really start to notice the differences.  Maybe I don't have golden ears, or maybe I suck at listening critically, or maybe they really are just that close?  I'm not sure.
> 
> ...


----------



## pj_rage

Quote: 





mcnoiserdc said:


> Thank you. yes I believe that the difference is where you say as my bass is low too, every headphone I have (cheap ones) has more bass than my hd600.
> Everyone talks about soundstage but on mine it seems small


 

 A lot of cheap headphones have a lot of bass but it sounds terrible.  I wouldn't expect a significant improvement in the sheer amount of bass with the MKIII, but for me it was fuller with a little more impact.  It won't be nearly as dramatic as switching to bassy headphones.  With regard to soundstage, I never found the HD600 to have a particularly large sound stage in the first place.  The MKIII, to my ears, did open it up a bit, but it's still not as big as something like the AKG 701/702.


  
  Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> I'll be very interested to hear your opinion after you do the mods. The Bias cap mod alone will tighten up your bass and improve your sound stage...maybe even more
> than a tube swap.
> By the way, thanks for the feedback about the channel imbalance...I kind of suspected it was from the low quality tube, I'll be looking to upgrade it next.
> I have some 100 ohm gate resistor to swap in, they are supposed to improve the high end with IRF510. The IRF630 sounds better with higher gate resistor
> so I wound not bother to swap them if you stay with the original MOSFETs.


 
  Yeah I'll definitely let you know after I upgrade the parts.  I basically went over to mouser and ordered everything you listed (except changed the part number on the mosfet to be the through hole part, not the surface mount part, and changed one of the WIMA caps to the 10% tolerance instead of 5% as the 5% were out of stock until mid june).  I did order the IRF510 mosfets.  I don't think I ordered lower resistance gate resistors, but I do have 100 ohm resistors here, so I'll consider swapping them as well.  Let me know what you think when you swap them, if it's worth it or not with the IRF510s.


----------



## mastercon12

These probably wouldn't run the dt 990/600 very well, right?


----------



## pj_rage

Quote: 





mastercon12 said:


> These probably wouldn't run the dt 990/600 very well, right?


 

 I don't have those headphones, but I think this amp does a fine job with the DT880/600s and actually sounds pretty darn good.  Especially for the price.  If you're worried about power, don't be.  You'll blow your ear drums or the drivers before it runs out of power, even on the 600 ohm beyers.


----------



## schawo

It drives the K240/600s very good. I cann't turn the knob over 50%.


----------



## yilmazcan

Hi, everybody. I am new here and headphone amplifier world 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just received my bravo. I need your opinion about:

 [size=10pt]As you know there are 2 triodes in the amp. Both burning a light but one is brighter than the other.[/size]
 [size=10pt]While playing,(In case using RCA input) when you unplug one channel  I hear a[/size] creaking sound in the free channel instead of a silence.
  are these problems or normal.
   
  Thank you for any response...


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on one of these, they sound like a blast to tweak


----------



## levlhed

I ended up winning a V2 - 12AU7 for all of $31 delivered.  Still weeks away from receiving it of course.  Will be driving DT990/600.
  I've gone through this thread and taken note of all the mods and experiences.  Cool stuff.


----------



## Judge Buff

I've got the mother lode of Indeed/Bravo info, pm me for details... Easy bias info, etc. I'm only 1/3 through one thread, but these guys are into these little amps as heavy as we are apparently. This may not be a revelation to most of you, but it was to me as I haven't been there in a long time. I haven't gotten far enough to know if they are modding heavily as the early pics look to be stock.
   
  I'd post the url, but I didn't know if hf would get po'd and ban me. Lecky's countrymen seem to be the most involved in the forum...
   
   
  ^ @levlhed So it was you who got it for $31! Yeah, I'm looking at bidding trends for all of these amps...


----------



## levlhed

Yes!  Just the other night after I stumbled upon this thread:

 Winning bid: US $14.51         Shipping: $16.00
   
  Kinda silly cheap, you know?  I will PM for a link.
   
  Do you think a wiki for Bravo/Indeed mods would be useful?  Would anyone use it?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

There gets to be a point where if you mod the amp any further you might as well just design a new amp...Hummmm


----------



## levlhed

Yes, I can see that.  I don't intend to mod really, but it's always nice to learn what is possible.....just in case.  (I don't own a proper soldering iron yet!)
  I think I'll be OK with rolling a NOS tube in and probably getting a linear regulated power supply for starters.
   
  I do have a Phenix G3-T7 on the way as well.


----------



## LiqTenExp

i just won one of these for $15.51 hah.
   
  Is there a post in this thread that covers the replacement tube options with this amp?  I have been reading through it and haven't seen a post that kind of compiles the tube options out there.  There are just individuals with individual results.  I was wondering if there is a general consensus as to what are the top few tube choices everyone has agreed upon as far as a replacement tube.


----------



## azncookiecutter

Scored a pair of tubes (Mullard and Bugle Boy) for around $25 shipped off eBay, should be fun to see the differences between it and the stock China-made tube.


----------



## yilmazcan

Hi friends,
  Any comment about my problem? Anybody tried this?
  
  Quote: 





yilmazcan said:


> Hi, everybody. I am new here and headphone amplifier world
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Judge Buff

You'll probably never put the stock tube back in it... If either of those are typical of their type, they'll be awesome in comparison.
  
  Quote: 





azncookiecutter said:


> Scored a pair of tubes (Mullard and Bugle Boy) for around $25 shipped off eBay, should be fun to see the differences between it and the stock China-made tube.


----------



## Judge Buff

I just scored a Bravo V2 for $28 shipped. Only $13 for the amp... I think that, so far, I'm winning in the bargain amp race.


----------



## Judge Buff

*Every tube is different...* Just look for ECC82s from Siemens, Telefunken, Amperex (Philips) and Mullard. Experiment and find tubes that you like the sonic presentation after listening for a few days.
  
  Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> i just won one of these for $15.51 hah.
> 
> Is there a post in this thread that covers the replacement tube options with this amp?  I have been reading through it and haven't seen a post that kind of compiles the tube options out there.  There are just individuals with individual results.  I was wondering if there is a general consensus as to what are the top few tube choices everyone has agreed upon as far as a replacement tube.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

That's like buying a tube and getting the amp for free...how can you loose?
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> I just scored a Bravo V2 for $28 shipped. Only $13 for the amp... I think that, so far, I'm winning in the bargain amp race.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> That's like buying a tube and getting the amp for free...how can you loose?


 

 The only way I can lose in this situation is if my wife says something like, "Where did that come from and how much did you pay for it? Do you mean that none of those little glass things you have will work in it and you're going to start buying different ones? Are you sure they won't work? They look the same to me!"
   
  Being a Magistrate doesn't help when you've already been convicted before She knows anything about the subject...


----------



## lawrywild

hehe, I got mine for £20 shipped too 
   
  It arrived today, really like the thing, sounds good so far but no time to give a good listen right now due to exams... looks awesome with the blue and red glow too
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> I just scored a Bravo V2 for $28 shipped. Only $13 for the amp... I think that, so far, I'm winning in the bargain amp race.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I have the same problem...
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> The only way I can lose in this situation is if my wife says something like, "Where did that come from and how much did you pay for it? Do you mean that none of those little glass things you have will work in it and you're going to start buying different ones? Are you sure they won't work? They look the same to me!"
> 
> Being a Magistrate doesn't help when you've already been convicted before She knows anything about the subject...


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

I've been pretty pleased with mine, it's a good little amp for the price. It's imperative that you quickly replace that tube though; the stock 12AU7 sounds terrible imho. I used to have another amp that used 12AU7s, so I had a few in storage. I currently am running a NOS RCA cleartop 12AU7 with two tube damping rings with pretty good results.
   
  Noise floor is a little high on one of the channels, which can pretty much be expected of an amp of this price, but you can't hear it when the music is playing. I was debating whether or not to mod the little bugger, but i think I'll leave it stock. Pretty much all the parts are of similar quality, if you wanted to really step it up, you'd have to replace most of them


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> The only way I can lose in this situation is if my wife says something like, "Where did that come from and how much did you pay for it? Do you mean that none of those little glass things you have will work in it and you're going to start buying different ones? Are you sure they won't work? They look the same to me!


 
  The trick is to ask her about the last pair of shoes or handbag she bought


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





highflyin9 said:


> The trick is to ask her about the last pair of shoes or handbag she bought


 

 That "trick" died before 1990. I've been married to her for 22 years and the standard replay to that question is, "I *need* shoes (or purses, make-up, hair/nail appointments, etc.), but you don't *need* that *thing* (set of headphones, ancient coin, iPhone, amp, magazine subscription, liquor/beer, etc.).
   
  Plausible deniability demands that I get it in the house, get it in an "established" position and answer if questioned, "I've had that for a while, but I thought I'd start tinkering with it." She won't believe it, but she might let it pass if I have credit in the "marriage bank." I can get credit in the bank by picking-up my clothes, cooking, etc. I have very little credit at the moment...
   
  BTW, mine will be modded. That's the most fun about having these little boogers. Bravos are known to be noisier than Indeeds, but some folks have reflowed solder joints and quieted theirs somewhat.


----------



## Judge Buff

Anybody looked at putting an E80CC in one of the V2 Bravos?


----------



## levlhed

Funny how your situation closely resembles mine
   
  I'll probably try an E80CC when I get mine.  Still a ways off from that though..


----------



## lawrywild

I'm new to tubes.. so if I buy another ECC82/12AU7 tube, it's just plug and play? What's this 'bias' adjust thing I keep reading?


----------



## levlhed

for the v.2 with a 12AU7 I don't believe there is a bias setting.  Just plug-n-play-n-listen-to-the-difference


----------



## lawrywild

Ok cool, I did some googling and apparently the 12AU7's are self bias adjusting.. 
   
  Now, only had it a few days but already I'm thinking about the mods to do.
   
  Atm I'm thinking...
   
  Replace Shu Guang with Mullard tube
  Replace the brown (chemicon?) caps with Panasonic FMs (think I have some low ESR 25v 1000uF already)
  Replace the RCA inputs with gold plated, non skeletal ones.
  Resolder the tube socket since it doesn't lie flat on the PCB atm and not all pins are coming through the back of the PCB.
  Resolder 3.5mm input as it's same problem as above.
  Maybe swap the 6.3mm output with something with gold plated contacts.
  Replace MOSFETs with IRF510 or IRL530
   
  Sound good? Anything else?
   
  How are the Rubycon smaller black caps?
   
  What's the volume pot like? Worth changing? I can't seem to detect much channel imbalance, only the left channel is very slightly louder when the pots turned right down I think..


----------



## Joe Presto

After contacting the ebay seller (smxsky) regarding the noise in the amp, he asked me to check something, and after that he let me know that a new one is on the way! Can't wait to hear the replacement...
   
  He asked me to remove the bottom acrylic cover and touch 2 pins with a metal object and report the results. The pins correspond with the trim-pots, when touching either one with something metal, the noise in the amp increased; based on this he is sending me a new one (less tube and power supply). Does this mean that the trim-pots are faulty? I could potentially swap those out and mod that amp further, leaving the other one stock.


----------



## Judge Buff

Joe, you've been given Carte Blanche to mod a free V2! Congratulations! I'd start with the output caps and follow all the recommendations in this thread.
  
  Quote: 





joe presto said:


> After contacting the ebay seller (smxsky) regarding the noise in the amp, he asked me to check something, and after that he let me know that a new one is on the way! Can't wait to hear the replacement...
> 
> He asked me to remove the bottom acrylic cover and touch 2 pins with a metal object and report the results. The pins correspond with the trim-pots, when touching either one with something metal, the noise in the amp increased; based on this he is sending me a new one (less tube and power supply). Does this mean that the trim-pots are faulty? I could potentially swap those out and mod that amp further, leaving the other one stock.


----------



## Joe Presto

True, though I will first need to fix the sound before trying to improve it! I'll start with the caps, but will exchange the trim-pots too, I don't trust them!
   
  EDIT: It's not the V2, I hope he doesn't send a V2, as I don't have a tube then O.o
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Joe, you've been given Carte Blanche to mod a free V2! Congratulations! I'd start with the output caps and follow all the recommendations in this thread.


----------



## Joe Presto

Judge Buff, I saw you mentioned replacing the trim-pots with Bournes ones, did they work for you? I'll be re-reading the thread to see what else can be replaced, there is quite a lot scattered throughout this thread. Need to be careful though, my lack of soldering skills just killed my already butchered SR60's whilst replacing a faulty cable


----------



## caceledon

I found on Ebay a Bravo V2 Clone by MUSE http://cgi.ebay.com/MUSE-Class-Hybrid-Tube-Headphone-Amplifier-6N11-NEW-/120576181081?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c12e68359 has anyone tried it yet? It has a buy it now of 50 vs the 65 that the bravo currently has, and the specs look good, so I´m tempted.  What do you think?


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

You may want to run a quick Google search on MUSE quality control  I was briefly looking at one of their products and quickly changed my mind, FWIW.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

All of these little tube hybrid amps come from the same contract
  manufacturer in China. I've seen them go by three or four different
  names. They are made in batches and this one seems to be a
  leftover version one Bravo. Quality on this run was poor. Later
  amps were a little better, but not much. What can you expect
  from a factory that pays its workers about a dollar a week?
  
  Quote: 





caceledon said:


> I found on Ebay a Bravo V2 Clone by MUSE http://cgi.ebay.com/MUSE-Class-Hybrid-Tube-Headphone-Amplifier-6N11-NEW-/120576181081?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c12e68359 has anyone tried it yet? It has a buy it now of 50 vs the 65 that the bravo currently has, and the specs look good, so I´m tempted.  What do you think?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





joe presto said:


> Judge Buff, I saw you mentioned replacing the trim-pots with Bournes ones, did they work for you? I'll be re-reading the thread to see what else can be replaced, there is quite a lot scattered throughout this thread. Need to be careful though, my lack of soldering skills just killed my already butchered SR60's whilst replacing a faulty cable


 

 Yeah, Bourne makes good trim-pots. The ones I put in are only single turn. Since I installed the bias caps, the single turn pots are not precise enough for me to do the final bit of adjustment easily. I have ordered multi-turn Bourne 2k pots to replace them.


----------



## caceledon

I just bought a *bravo V2* on Ebay (for $70, I know quite expensive).  This *comes with a 12AU7 tube*, and since I´ve never had any tube amp before, and have always heard that you have to change the tubes, I went a little crazy buying tubes on Ebay (different types 12AU7A, E88CC, 6922, 6DJ8, CN1P, 6963, CCa).  But know *I have doubt if they will work on my amp*, since some of the most expensive are *6922, *and not *12AU7* as the one that came with the amp.  *  Have I wasted a lot of money in vain????*


----------



## azncookiecutter

Just put in a Mullard 12AU7 in the Bravo, a nice improvement over the stock Chinese 12AU7. A lot smoother sound, for an initial impression.


----------



## Joe Presto

As far as I can tell, the E88CC, 6922 and 6DJ8 won't work in your Bravo (V2); those are all very similar and work in the first generation Bravo amps; you certainly haven't wasted your money, you could make some fellow head-fiers very happy, put them in the FS section and see how you go! Which ones did you get?
  
  Quote: 





caceledon said:


> I just bought a *bravo V2* on Ebay (for $70, I know quite expensive).  This *comes with a 12AU7 tube*, and since I´ve never had any tube amp before, and have always heard that you have to change the tubes, I went a little crazy buying tubes on Ebay (different types 12AU7A, E88CC, 6922, 6DJ8, CN1P, 6963, CCa).  But know *I have doubt if they will work on my amp*, since some of the most expensive are *6922, *and not *12AU7* as the one that came with the amp.  *  Have I wasted a lot of money in vain????*


----------



## levlhed

6DJ8/6922 family will def. NOT work in the V.2 which uses the 12AU7 family.
  Don't fret though.  Tubes don't go DOWN in value, so just hold onto them.  Trust me, now that you've gotten started down this road you'll eventually have a need for those tubes
   
  I just took delivery of a used Sola SLS-24-024T for my V.2
  I'm still not entirely sure how to hook it up, but since the Bravo is still making it's way to me I have some time.....


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Right, the E88CC, 6922 and 6DJ8 are all incredibly common on tube audio gear, especially anything that has a tube buffer. Because of that, the demand for good NOS tubes in that family is quite high. I prefer amps using the 12AU7 tube because you can get relatively good ones for $20 a pop. Good 6922s are quite a bit more.
   
  If you got any 5814 / 5963 or ECC82, I believe they are similar specs to the 12AU7, but you may want to wait for an expert to confirm that


----------



## Gubretti

Any word on the V3 version? It looks intriguing, I was thinking of getting the V2 but I already have some ECC88 tubes so I'm either getting the V1 Deluxe or V3.


----------



## Yangqui

I just received mine today (California) and I can't believe how it sounds. At first, I was skeptical (for HK-made electronics) and it sounds very sweet on my Grado SR325i.  I ordered this for curiousity sake after battling my mind if I have to spend some hard-earned $$ for a Chinese-made electronic.  I am currently playing it from an Ipod Classic source from Leonard Cohen, Marc Cohn, to Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon. Sounds superb with the equalizers positioned all the way down. With my "V" setting, that is where all the sounds not heard from my other reputable U.S. made headphone amp. Then I fed it on my fully upgraded (Blackgates, Solens) Apt Holman preamp thru an upgraded Hafler DH-500 (I have this power amp hooked to a switcher receiving 5 different preamps (Upgraded Hafler DH-110, Belles, Apt Holman, Acurus, Bryston) and all of them gave me sounds resulting in some instrument sources I never heard from my CD player before without the BRAVO headphone amp in between. For now, it is still in "burn" mode and I expect to hear much better sound after at least 50 hours of burn time. (I usually let my new stuff going thru a 2-hour burn, power off for a few minutes and on again for another 2 hours until it reaches at least 50 hours) Why?  My tech has over 30 years of experience in the audio repair business, worked for NASA and a reputable computer company before he permanently retired and concentrate on personal audio repair business specializing on tube amps. Finally you got to give this Headphone Amp some serious listening and decide for yourself. Peace!


----------



## caceledon

Since I now have a lot of diferent types of tubes, i was thinking of changing the tube socket. On Ebay they sell  tube sockets pretty cheap, even the gold plated ones, so I want to change the socket to accept a different kind of tube and compare them.  It would definetly change the sound, and it would make a cool mod.  Has anyone done that here??  Is it even possible to do??


----------



## levlhed

That's not something you can do as it's more than just changing the tube socket.  Actually, I think the tubes you bought would all fit in the existing socket anyway.
  The differences in tubes have to do with the different voltages and other electrical measurements it operates at.  It would require completely rebuilding the circuit which is going to be more trouble than it's ever going to be worth.  Doesn't make any sense to do that.  You be doing more work than just building a new circuit from scratch.


----------



## Yangqui

It works fine with the supplied 6922 Electro Harmonix Russian-made tube.  I am planning to replace it with Amperex tube just to find out if there is any improvement.


----------



## Yangqui

I got it now hooked up on my PSE Studio One preamp and PSE Studio Two power amp with my Polk Atrium 65SDi outdoor speakers (still with Ipod Classic playing Special EFX, Don Dorsey, Benise, and Kraftwerk--sounds sweet, powerful and clean. It really sounds good with more bass on Grado SR325i Headphones. A little bright and more highs on Sony MDR-V6. It's been playing for 8 hours and is doing fine.


----------



## levlhed

Quote: 





yangqui said:


> It works fine with the supplied 6922 Electro Harmonix Russian-made tube.  I am planning to replace it with Amperex tube just to find out if there is any improvement.


 

 Just to be clear, we are talking about two different models here.  One uses a 6DJ8/6922 and one uses a 12AU7


----------



## Yangqui

I have the V3 with the 3-band equalizer. Comes with a EH Russian 6922 tube.


----------



## ulyses

Deleted. (It's just so early to judge this amp)


----------



## Gubretti

Just won an auction for the V3, can't wait for it to get here =D


----------



## AVALover5498

How would this or the Indeed be with an MS1000?


----------



## ulyses

Well last night I tought it was a burn-in issue. But obviously not. My Bravo audio v2 gains music volume indeed. But with a crappy presentation. Transparency and sound stage doesn't mean anything with this product. I listen much more good equipment so probably I am not so forgiveness to this. But truth is truth. My emu 202 headphone out has less power but better quality than this. Is there any chance to make it listenable with tube rolling?


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Quote: 





ulyses said:


> Well last night I tought it was a burn-in issue. But obviously not. My Bravo audio v2 gains music volume indeed. But with a crappy presentation. Transparency and sound stage doesn't mean anything with this product. I listen much more good equipment so probably I am not so forgiveness to this. But truth is truth. My emu 202 headphone out has less power but better quality than this. Is there any chance to make it listenable with tube rolling?


 
  Replacing the stock tube does the amp a lot of good, but I'm not sure it would reach the level you're looking for.


----------



## ulyses

I will try a sylvania 12au7 than. Looks like cheap and decent tubes for this amp.


----------



## azncookiecutter

Yeah, changing tubes definitely help. The stock Chinese 12AU7 is horrifically bad.


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Quote: 





ulyses said:


> I will try a sylvania 12au7 than. Looks like cheap and decent tubes for this amp.


 

 Exactly, $15-20 will buy you an excellent tube for this amp. NOS Sylvania / Raytheon / RCA etc.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





highflyin9 said:


> Exactly, $15-20 will buy you an excellent tube for this amp. NOS Sylvania / Raytheon / RCA etc.


 

 I just got six 5814A tubes from one eBay auction that included a Sylvania Gold Brand (Gold Pin), an RCA Command (Short Black Plates) and 4 GE 5Stars (One Red Label) for ~$15 inc shipping.
   
  The Bay is like an online Hamfest... You have to be in the right place at the right time, but you gotta know what you are seeing in the photos. Do your homework and know what you want to buy. Then pounce when you have the chance. Like the 4 RCA 12au7 Black Plates from 1956 that I got for ~$14.
   
  Look for tubes that have been _pulled from working electric organs_. I'm not kidding...


----------



## 22B

I ordered some Nichicon capacitors and Bournes trimmers for my V1 Bravo.  I really suck at soldering and would like to ask if someone here can help me solder in these new components on my Bravo.  Thanks in advance.  
   
  Michael


----------



## qawsedrf

Do you guys get any channel imbalance from certain tubes paired with this Bravo Amp? I have two of these amps, and many of my purchased tubes shown such issues, well, not that many to the extend I don't have any tubes to use though. Hehe.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

If you let people know more or less where you are, you might find someone local.
  If you are willing to pay for shipping then I'm sure there are several people here
  who would help you. Even then, it would be best to find someone in your
  country...
  
  Quote: 





22b said:


> I ordered some Nichicon capacitors and Bournes trimmers for my V1 Bravo.  I really suck at soldering and would like to ask if someone here can help me solder in these new components on my Bravo.  Thanks in advance.
> 
> Michael


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Yes, some people have reported a channel imbalance related to the tube. The best solution is just use a different tube or
  adjust your balance on your source if you can.
   
  Quote: 





qawsedrf said:


> Do you guys get any channel imbalance from certain tubes paired with this Bravo Amp? I have two of these amps, and many of my purchased tubes shown such issues, well, not that many to the extend I don't have any tubes to use though. Hehe.


----------



## 22B

That's a good idea. I am in Los Angeles. I can ship it to anywhere in the USA.  If someone from Los Angeles can help me, that would be even better.  Thanks
   
  Michael


----------



## qawsedrf

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Yes, some people have reported a channel imbalance related to the tube. The best solution is just use a different tube or
> adjust your balance on your source if you can.


 
   
   
  Oh, thanks for the heads up Avro. =)


----------



## pj_rage

Quote: 





qawsedrf said:


> Do you guys get any channel imbalance from certain tubes paired with this Bravo Amp? I have two of these amps, and many of my purchased tubes shown such issues, well, not that many to the extend I don't have any tubes to use though. Hehe.


 

 The stock tube that came with my v2 favored the left channel noticeably, but not terribly.  Changing to a mullard short plate made the balance perfect and sounds better too.  I have a number of other 12AU7 tubes too, but haven't tried them in the bravo as even though it's a great little piece, I just don't use it that much compared to my other amps.
   
  Anyway, I don't know if the imbalance is because the design or something is more suscpetible to tube imbalance or something, even with tubes that would work fine in other amps?  I had just assumed that the cheap stock chinese tube had QC issues that led to the imbalance.


----------



## qawsedrf

Quote: 





pj_rage said:


> The stock tube that came with my v2 favored the left channel noticeably, but not terribly.  Changing to a mullard short plate made the balance perfect and sounds better too.  I have a number of other 12AU7 tubes too, but haven't tried them in the bravo as even though it's a great little piece, I just don't use it that much compared to my other amps.
> 
> Anyway, I don't know if the imbalance is because the design or something is more suscpetible to tube imbalance or something, even with tubes that would work fine in other amps?  I had just assumed that the cheap stock chinese tube had QC issues that led to the imbalance.


 
   
  Hey pj_rage,
   
   
  I've noticed your post from a few pages back. =) Thanks for the feedback.
   
  Hmmm.. I have over 10 12AU7 tubes for my Bravo amp (some RCA greyplate cleartops, Sylvania 5963, Raytheon12AU7), which 5 of them work without imbalance for the Bravo. I have some other tubes coming in as well which I have earlier orders but have yet to reach.
   
   
  The imbalance seems to have something to do with the tubes, as both the Bravo amps I had on hand show imbalance with the same tubes.
   
   
  Also, it is interesting to note that, on a tube which doesn't shows imbalance issues, the right black heatsink (next to the RCA ports) heat up much faster and is hotter than the one on the left, where as when a tube which shows imbalance is plugged it, the left side will heat up to be hotter than the right. Can someone verify this observation for me, perhaps, pj_rage or Avro, if anyone at all has the time? =) Maybe this can explain something about the imbalance?
   
   
  I have not much knowledge in electronics to really come out with a conclusion, so I'll leave that to someone else who can speak better for that. =)


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I bet I know the answer without even experimenting...
  In my version of the amp (6N11 tube) the heaters are
  connected in series. If one heater is a little stronger
  than the other, the imbalance will be exagerated more
  than if the heaters are connected in parallel.
  Next time I am using my amp I will measure the voltage
  drop across each heater and see if there is a measurable
  difference.
  Of course I could be completely wrong and the imbalance
  could be related to poor construction of the tube...
   
  Quote: 





qawsedrf said:


> Hey pj_rage,
> 
> 
> I've noticed your post from a few pages back. =) Thanks for the feedback.
> ...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I guess I won't be doing that, the 6N11 does not have the option for parallel heaters,
  only series connection is available. I also noticed I only get 5.25 volts across the
  heaters. They are supposed to get 6.3 volts.
  I don't think I am going to worry about it any further...I don't think it
  can be fixed other than by changing the tube anyway.


----------



## qawsedrf

Thanks for the updates Avro! So I guess it's tube change for me. That's a rather interesting elaboration you have there though, might take me some time to digest. =)
   
   
  On a separated note, would anything advise or have experience with the Bravo tube amp and any 5814 or 6189 mil-spec tubes? =D Thanks!


----------



## levlhed

I'm at the 17-day mark waiting for my V.2 to be delivered.  The thing is now that I have my Bottlehead Crack Speedball I'm not even sure I want the little bugger anymore!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I think mine took about three weeks to come as well, but
  that was last year...
   
  You could always re-sell it or just keep it to hack on and play with.
  
  Quote: 





levlhed said:


> I'm at the 17-day mark waiting for my V.2 to be delivered.  The thing is now that I have my Bottlehead Crack Speedball I'm not even sure I want the little bugger anymore!


----------



## ulyses

I roll my new sylvania tubes today. Wohaa, what amazing difference. Sound stage get bigger and bigger. And transparency off course. It's like taking a deep breath after a long diving. Now I realy like this little toy.


----------



## azncookiecutter

Quote: 





ulyses said:


> I roll my new sylvania tubes today. Wohaa, what amazing difference. Sound stage get bigger and bigger. And transparency off course. It's like taking a deep breath after a long diving. Now I realy like this little toy.


 

 Yup, tubes make a HUGE difference in how this amp sounds.


----------



## levlhed

Got my V2 today.  Left it turned on with the stock tube from lunchtime until now.
  Just sat down, listened to the stock tube for maybe 2 halves of a song.  Rolled in a NOS Sylvania 12AU7 because I know what chinese tubes are like....
   
  I'm still evaluating, but I can say right off the bat that I am not questioning that what I got for $30 wasn't worth it, though I would have preferred to not wait 3+ weeks.
  Also, I'm using 600 ohm Beyer DT990 cans and can crank the volume all the way up.  Comfortable listening level is between 9 and 11 o'clock.   I've got one of those Sola power supplies for it but I haven't hooked it up yet.
   
  Doesn't seem to have as much bass as my Bottlehead Crack Speedball, but that amp is known to be bass-y in the first place.


----------



## Judge Buff

After rolling about 60 tubes into 3 Indeeds ( 1 G1 and 2 G2s) and 1 V2 Bravo, I can say with some certainty that these amps *are* the tubes that you put in them. All of the amp's personality is vested in the tube. If the tube is grossly un-balanced to begin with and isn't biased properly ( the G2 should be biased with each cathode at ~13V to 16V apparently, as Peter apparently recommends 13V ), it will play unbalanced and/or sound like a waste.
   
  The sonic differences between very good tubes are almost as dramatic as the differences between good and bad tubes. Some tubes have more bass proclivity, while others are more 3D or spatial. Some have the vocals "in your face" and others have the vocals seemingly lost in the music. Some tubes like the 12au7 just seems mild-mannered, especially in comparison to a NOS 6dj8. For me, that's a lot of the fun with these amps: "I wonder if this Mullard ECC88 sounds better than this Sylvania 7308 that's branded a Siemens... Hey, I bet this will sound great playing these Coldplay cuts ( or Toby Keith or Tchaikovsky or Sigur Ros)."
   
  I tend to think of the passive components and ICs as the crew for the tube, and the tube is the band or orchestra. A great crew can't make a bad band sound good, but a great crew can make a good band sound great and a great band sound incredible. Here again, I say things such as, "I wonder what swapping this cap to this cap will do." Since Indeed now puts the IRF510 in the G2, I won't be swapping those out anymore.
   
  Anyway, I plan on doing a decent comparison over this summer...


----------



## Rune3400

Hi, i allready own a Mini3 amp. Would it then just be a waste of money to buy this one? How does it compare?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





rune3400 said:


> Hi, i allready own a Mini3 amp. Would it then just be a waste of money to buy this one? How does it compare?


 

 Well this is a hybrid amp... the tube controls the presentation. The mini3 is (primarily) portable, SS and sounds like it.
   
  If you want to introduce yourself to "tube sound" for a pittance, I'd go with an Indeed G2 with a 6n23p. Best bang for the buck out there IMHO. The mini3 will fit in your pocket and that's where you'll use it, *if *you get hooked by these little tube amps.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> * The mini3 will fit in your pocket and that's where you'll use it*,...............


 
   
  @*Rune3400*
   
  .... and the Bravo fits nicely into a plastic bag and that's where I use it. (as a conversation piece)
   
  If you aren't into modding like the Judge, pass it by, or collect it as a curiosity.
   
  Regards
   
  USG


----------



## Judge Buff

@Rune3400, pay no attention to USG... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  After he puts the Bravo in the bag, he puts the bag into a drawer, the drawer in a desk, the desk in a room, etc, etc...
  The Indeed G2 is much better than anything USG has bagged-up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Even though, he's rather _curious acting like bagging electronics,_ he is correct that these little amps are an excellent *first* platform to do a little DIY modding when you want. While the G2 is a good little amp, you can make it better for pocket change and a little solder.
  
  Look through the thread and PM several members that have both Indeeds and Bravos and ask them. I bet 90% of us use them routinely. USG is the only one I know of that hides his in a plastic bag, in a drawer, in a desk, etc.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
*angår,*
*Buff*
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> @*Rune3400*
> 
> .... and the Bravo fits nicely into a plastic bag and that's where I use it. (as a conversation piece)
> 
> ...


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> @Rune3400, pay no attention to USG...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Cool your jets Buffy, you're right!  It's in a drawer, in a desk , in a room.  And it periodically comes out to show people how small a one tube amp can be.  Sometimes I even fire it up, (but the tube and the power supply had to be replaced before it worked)  And judge, I don't _hide_ it in a plastic bag, I _protect_ it with a plastic bag. 
   
  @ Rune3400:  if you're into DIY modding, judge is correct in saying that this is a great little amp to play around with.  There's a DIY modding thread you can read if you're interested.
   
   I never got this amp to use.  I got it as a curiosity and conversation piece.  If you decide to bid on it,  for what ever reasons, don't pay very much.  Follow the auctions.  It can be had for very cheap.
   
  Enjoy
   
  USG


----------



## Ultrainferno

I finally won an ebay auction last night. V2 coming my way!
   
  Unfortunately I forgot to tell I need a european plug, so now I'll be getting the us version.
  I hope it'll work with a US to EU plug, stupid me


----------



## Yangqui

Well, if they have common sense and they see your European address, they might send you a European adapter (220V AC to 25V DC). If not, email them or spend some money for a step-up transformer (110V AC to 220V AC) then, you can use that U.S. adapter.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Let's hope so
   
  Ebay description states: 
    1 x Switching Power Supply Universal AC 100V-240V / 50~60Hz to 24V DC 1A out put  1 x Power cable with AC wall plug (We have 4 Standard Plugs shown in below picture. Please let us know your choice. Or we will ship the Preamp with default US plug)   
  So I guess that i only need a replacement 8-shaped cable with EU plug to connect it to the Power supply. (at least that's what I hope)
  I mailed them just in case, I'm waiting for a reply


----------



## Yangqui

Oh! I almost forgot that the AC adapter is universal which means you can use it at either EU, Japan, or US (100V-220V) the cycle is okay (50/60) and what you really need is the ADAPTER PLUG (US to EU) meaning...it's a cheap adapter with female blade US on one end and the round EU male plug/terminals on the other end that plugs to the EU socket.  You are good to go all you need is just that cheap little piece of adapter plug.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Edit: I got a reply in english this time. It was sent with the european plug. Lucky me.
  Can't wait till it gets here!


----------



## spz

i've just recived my Bravo amp...it's sweet 
  I'm thinking about changing the tube with a Mullard ECC82, do you have any suggestion on which tube could be a good match for my headphones (Sennheiser HD595)?


----------



## Bandeira

Any news on how the V3 compares to both v1 and v2?
   
  Does the v3 incorporate any mods that are being done?


----------



## Judge Buff

Try to find a few 5814s... GE, Sylvania or RCA. They will be a lot cheaper than Mullards or Siemens or Teles and will probably sound just as good. Don't worry about trying to match a tube brand to your phones. Just find 12au7 or variant tubes that are decently balanced. If the sonic presentation of the music is rich and clean, your Sennheisers will sound amazing. Clear top tubes with side getters are generally very good sounding, but again look for balanced emissions. Tubes pulled from working electric organs are usually pretty good quality tubes. Do some reading around the web on 12au7/ecc82 tubes and buy one or two that are relatively inexpensive. $5 -$15 USD is a decent range to purchase for 1-2 tubes.
   
  Enjoy
  
  Quote: 





spz said:


> i've just recived my Bravo amp...it's sweet
> I'm thinking about changing the tube with a Mullard ECC82, do you have any suggestion on which tube could be a good match for my headphones (Sennheiser HD595)?


----------



## Judge Buff

USG, you cool your jets. You're the one that first presumed to comment on my initial response to Rune3400. The G2 Indeed I recommended is much more amp than your V1 Bravo. That's why I told him not to pay any attention to what you were saying and used the "shocked" smiley. And I was playing with you about the bagging and hiding of your Bravo, as I've always done. I *know* why it's in a baggie, usg. I apologize if I punched your buttons, but I was playing with what you *do* with the amp, not you personally.
   
  The last person that called me Buffy was a 5' tall, 100lb cheerleader I knew 37 years ago in college. Unless you fit the same criteria as she, which I doubt, please refrain from calling me seductive "pillow names." Homey don't play dat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45PulWduN-U&feature=related
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Cool your jets Buffy, you're right!  It's in a drawer, in a desk , in a room.  And it periodically comes out to show people how small a one tube amp can be.  Sometimes I even fire it up, (but the tube and the power supply had to be replaced before it worked)  And judge, I don't _hide_ it in a plastic bag, I _protect_ it with a plastic bag.
> 
> @ Rune3400:  if you're into DIY modding, judge is correct in saying that this is a great little amp to play around with.  There's a DIY modding thread you can read if you're interested.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ultrainferno

I just won an ebay auction for 2 matched 1964 RCA 12au7a Clear top D getter long ribbed grey plates for 15$ to put in the Bravo Good deal?


----------



## qawsedrf

I found that the cleartops are good tubes with the Bravo, especially for those looking for transparency and a slight sparkle on the top on. I really preferred the RCA blackplates (specifically, the 5963 RCA blackplates with triple MICA), as it has a slight hint of warmth in the mids, so it don't sound as dry as the amp would with the 5814WA or 12AU7A Sylvanias I have.
   
   
  Organ pulls are good for the Bravo too, especially that's where you can usually get cheap RCA cleartops. Raytheon 12AU7/12AU7A do sound rather neutral, sounds somewhere in between the cleartops and the 5963 RCA blackplates I have, and you can get some of those organ pulled too, relabeled as Baldwin I believe.
   
   
  I have a pair of RCA 6189 for the amp as well, ironically, I don't remember how they sound! Haha. Was depressed a few days back, I oughta test through my collection of tubes again and report back with more detailed findings. Don't have the chance to try any of the big guns yet though, Mullard, Brimar, Telefunkens, etc etc.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Thanks for the feedback on the different tubes. The rca's were pulled from a CONN organ btw


----------



## qawsedrf

Yeap yeap, I have a pair from CONN organs too. =) I didn't listen that at all carefully, but it didn't sound that much different than the other RCA cleartops of mine.
   
   
  Maybe I oughta do more critical listening when I have the time. =)


----------



## haz101

I'm new to tube amps,
   
  Got myself a bravo v2 off ebay and wanting to replace the stock tube. Looking on this thread I found that mullards where a good choice.
  Ive got this tube off ebay.
   
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300441701920&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_500wt_1154
   
  I think I got a pretty good deal, Can anyone tell me how this tube would sound over the stock tube?
  And does anyone have any recommendations for some tubes that I could also try out?


----------



## Ultrainferno

@haz101
   
  welcome to Head-fi!
   
  I suggest you go visit www.audiotubes.com for more info on Tubes. It's a very helpful site
  For the 12au7 tubes go to: http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm
   
  It helped me and I'm a complete tube newbie


----------



## Judge Buff

Not bad haz101... This tube should make you want to throw the stock tube in the trash. Rich, full bodied and "liquid," as they say... MUSICAL. Make sure that you adjust the bias.
  
  Quote: 





haz101 said:


> I'm new to tube amps,
> 
> Got myself a bravo v2 off ebay and wanting to replace the stock tube. Looking on this thread I found that mullards where a good choice.
> Ive got this tube off ebay.
> ...


----------



## ulyses

There is no any bias adjust switch in V2, am I wrong?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Posted by mistake, sry


----------



## haz101

Thank you for your input, appreciated.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I'm listening to my 1964 RCA clear tops and they really make this little amp sound great!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I'm listening to my 1964 RCA clear tops and they really make this little amp sound great!


 
  Sweet!
   
  Oh yeah, everybody I apologize for telling haz101 to adjust the bias on his *V2*... I post about my Indeed *G2* in this thread, and it is the amp that one must surely adjust the bias on for any tube installed. I recommend that anyone wanting a deeper understanding of any of these amps look at :
   
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?


----------



## hatchesjoe

im interested in the bravo v2... and i need some input...
   
  first of all, i have a very ghetto home recording studio. i scrapped the guts of an old 70's ross 12-channel board to get rid of its "clippy" preamps, and re-wired it completely passive. from this mixer, i run a stereo out into an akai reel-to-reel...
   
  by wiring the mixer passively and bypassing the preamps, there is a significant output drop. i think its something like a ten fold loss in signal. the akai still picks up the signal well enough, but the input gain has to be set on almost 10 to really drive the reel and bring it to that wonderful land of reel compression and saturation. unfortunately... this means my reel-to-reel is also working that much harder to amplify the noise as it is the actual signal. although a little buzzy... it sounds great... but i think it would sound even better if i used something like the v2 to drive the signal through the passive mixer (effectively making the v2 replace the lo-fi transistors in the original preamp section of the mixer). this would also greatly bring up the signal-noise ratio...
   
  so im thinking microphone... v2... mixer... reel. would that work?
   
  id be building 6 of them to run the 12 channels (using the left and right independently as two channels)... and feel comfortable doing this.
   
  the alternative would be to place the single v2 after the mixer... but this would also be a noise amplification issue.
   
  ive read all 61 pages of your collective thoughts... and i think this amp lines up #1 for what id like to use it for
   
  so now for the immediate questions:
  1. can the 12au7 be run with one triode completely silent without any signal leaking over?
  2. what is the output wattage? i read one estimate of 5 watts... but this seems steep. my mixer is wired using 1/2 watt components... and i dont want to fry it
  3. is it safe for the amp to have an output volume control (the mixer)? id need to bring the final output to line levels to avoid cooking my beloved reel-to-reel... but i dont want to fry the pre-amp by putting that extra load on it
  4. being class-a, would i need (6) 2amp power supplies... or could i run something like a 6-12amp in parallel
  5. any tips on giving the v2 a little less headroom? i dont want to have to crank it to get some tube grit into my signal
   
  it sounds like "how to start a fire 101"... but id really like to have a tube-driven mixing board. all my big ugly analog gear gives me a nice wow-factor... and lets me charge more to record 
   
  i know its a bit out of the usual headphone rig... but the same principals apply... and you guys seem to know your stuff. thanks a lot!
  -joe


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I'm sorry to have to tell you Joe, this amp is completely unsuitable for how you want to use it.
  What you need is a line amp. Check this one out.
  
  Quote: 





hatchesjoe said:


> im interested in the bravo v2... and i need some input...
> 
> first of all, i have a very ghetto home recording studio. i scrapped the guts of an old 70's ross 12-channel board to get rid of its "clippy" preamps, and re-wired it completely passive. from this mixer, i run a stereo out into an akai reel-to-reel...
> 
> ...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

For a tube line amp check this out.


----------



## hatchesjoe

ouch. good thing i read through all 61 pages...
  on the plus side, i know more about the bravo than anyone who has no use for it haha
   
  thanks a lot for the link. they have pretty detailed schematics, which will be very helpful. how about a 36-tube mixer? haha. sounds like a summer well spent...
   
  what do you think about the schematics for the EB-797/203?  http://www.borbelyaudio.com/adobe/hybrid.pdf
  its a tube/mosfet hybrid also... and can even run an ecc88/6922 tube. maybe it could be the bravo's wimpy little brother...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

As you have mentioned, the thing you want to avoid is amplifying the noise instead of the signal.
  This means bring the signal up to a reasonable level before you mix it. You can recover the loss
  from the mixer with a single amp after the mix. Recording from microphones will require you to amp
  these before the mixer. A single stage tube amp can do this. You don't need the higher current any
  of these Hybrid tube amps you have seen are designed for. You are looking for mostly voltage gain.
  Try searching on "tube microphone amp" and see what you come up with. The line amp comes after
  the mixer to boost the level back up for the deck to have a strong signal to work with.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Here is a website that may be of interest to you.
   
  Good luck with your studio!


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> USG, you cool your jets. You're the one that first presumed to comment on my initial response to Rune3400. The G2 Indeed I recommended is much more amp than your V1 Bravo. That's why I told him not to pay any attention to what you were saying and used the "shocked" smiley. And I was playing with you about the bagging and hiding of your Bravo, as I've always done. I *know* why it's in a baggie, usg. I apologize if I punched your buttons, but I was playing with what you *do* with the amp, not you personally.
> 
> The last person that called me Buffy was a 5' tall, 100lb cheerleader I knew 37 years ago in college. Unless you fit the same criteria as she, which I doubt, please refrain from calling me seductive "pillow names." Homey don't play dat...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45PulWduN-U&feature=related


 

 I was just kidding around too, sweetheart!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  We need better emoticons.  Too much is lost in the translation.
   
  37 years is a long time to be out of college...   In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, Kind of a Drag, The Letter, Eve of Destruction, Creeque Alley, Crimson and Clover, There's a Kind of Hush, Who'll Stop the Rain.....
   
  Cheers
   
  USG


----------



## sepinho

Yay! I took the plunge and bought one off Ebay last night, this thread really helped with the decision.
  Looks like a great way to get into tube amps. And it's so tiny too! It ought to pair nicely with my netbook that sounds surprisingly good.


----------



## hatchesjoe

the tube/mosfet hybrid i linked is a line amp... not a headphone amp. it seems to be very similar in design to the bravo... but with much less output power. it'll be interesting to see what bravo mods might translate to this design as well.
   
  and honestly, the slight noise i get in recordings could just as easily be from faulty cables, RF, etc as it is the mixer. the re-designed mixer is extremely well put together, soldered, and shielded (i made sure of it) . maybe ill try one single mixer-lineamp-recorder application before i dive into making a 12 channel mic preamp. also... im using pretty run-of-the-mill radioshack ceramic resistors and caps in the mixer... are these prone to be noisey in passive devices?
   
  thanks again for all of the off-topic help. and for what its worth... once im done tweaking my recording studio a touch... i fully plan on investing in one of the bravos for playback!
   
  ...and if the hybrid lineamp works out for my needs... can you point me towards the nearest LED and acrylic plate vendor


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Yes, common carbon resistors from Radio Shack are much noisier than higher quality metal film resistors.
  Something along the lines of these 1% Yageo resistors would be better than the RS carbons.
  The subject of Capacitors is a whole other conversation on it's own...but these Metallized Polypropylene Film Capacitors
  are a good place to start.
  Oh yes, that EB-797/203 looks like it would probably work pretty well and be easy to build.
  The biggest problem would be finding the devices listed in the schematic or finding suitable substitutes.
   
  We are getting pretty far off topic in this thread now, if you want, ask your questions about your
  studio in the DIY section on this board.
   

  
  Quote: 





hatchesjoe said:


> the tube/mosfet hybrid i linked is a line amp... not a headphone amp. it seems to be very similar in design to the bravo... but with much less output power. it'll be interesting to see what bravo mods might translate to this design as well.
> 
> and honestly, the slight noise i get in recordings could just as easily be from faulty cables, RF, etc as it is the mixer. the re-designed mixer is extremely well put together, soldered, and shielded (i made sure of it) . maybe ill try one single mixer-lineamp-recorder application before i dive into making a 12 channel mic preamp. also... im using pretty run-of-the-mill radioshack ceramic resistors and caps in the mixer... are these prone to be noisey in passive devices?
> 
> ...


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Hey guys, im currently looking a bravo amp, the variety which uses 6922 tubes. does anyone know what brand of tube these are by looking at them? becasue it looks like it could be a steal if they dont suck 
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/nice-pair-vintage-6DJ8-6922-ECC88-tubes-NOS-/160453995326?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item255bcdab3e#ht_483wt_976


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Hey so i just bought the 3 band eq version on ebay. ill post a mini review for anyone whos interested when they arive but what i want to ask is if anyone knows of a tube that would be a straight up improovment in clarity while not costing more than 15-20$. Thanks!


----------



## Yangqui

I have a V3 (with 3-band eq) and replaced the 6922 EH tube that came with it with a balanced Syvannia 6922 which I bought on eBay for $50 a pair and it sounded much better. I almost purchased a Mullard for $143 but wanted to try it first with a cheaper one to be practical. I don't think you have to change it with a more expensive tube especially the ones that cost much more than the unit itself. 
   
  And now, this might be out of the topic but after buying 5 each of Onkyo P-304 preamps, I tell you one of my secrets....This preamp will beat most of any headphone amp out there.  I have a lot of audiophile preamp but liked the P-304 more. This is one of the most underrated preamp or totally mislooked.  Just try it and you will be amazed! It is bulky but sounds outstanding even mixed with other high-end components in your home stereo.  I have a system that feeds 8 sources (Comprehensive CVG 808xl 8x8 audio matrix switcher) and compared all 8 different brands of high-end preamps from one CD player source, and the Onkyo P-304 beat them all.


----------



## Judge Buff

Not a steal at $25. Offer $10..., but still not a steal at 10. If you get both for $5 shipped, that would be a steal. They are 6dj8s, not 6922s.
   
  Oh yeah, I'd guess that they are GE, without seeing the getter, based on the flashing and the nipple shape.
  
  Quote: 





baudlydamage said:


> Hey guys, im currently looking a bravo amp, the variety which uses 6922 tubes. does anyone know what brand of tube these are by looking at them? becasue it looks like it could be a steal if they dont suck
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/nice-pair-vintage-6DJ8-6922-ECC88-tubes-NOS-/160453995326?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item255bcdab3e#ht_483wt_976


----------



## BaudlyDamage

@Yangqui, honestly im not sure what a pre amp would do for me. my rig is going to be this
   
  Comp --> creative xmod --> bravo audio v3 --> fostex t50rp


----------



## Noobiiee

The noise from the xmod will be amplified by the Bravo. You should try a better DAC, like the uDac or Dr DAC Nano.
  Quote: 





baudlydamage said:


> @Yangqui, honestly im not sure what a pre amp would do for me. my rig is going to be this
> 
> Comp --> creative xmod --> bravo audio v3 --> fostex t50rp


----------



## BaudlyDamage

The xmod is also 20$ : ). and as long as its better than my netbook's crappy audio hardware (which anything in the world is), then it is good.


----------



## Yangqui

Right now, I have one setup in one room with CD Player (sometimes my Ipod Classic) fed to my V3 then to my modified and upgraded Hafler DH-110 preamp, hooked to a Professional Systems Engineering (PSE) Studio IV amp, and out to my Hafler M5 studio monitor/speakers and it sounds outstanding. A little bit shy on bass but I will be hooking it up to my Velodyne subwoofer to compensate the lows my M5 is lacking.
   
  You don't really need a preamp. I just want to feed mine to my modified preamp because the parts that had been installed,upgraded to replace the old ones need some burn in time.  Sometimes a good preamp will add more interesting and better sound to what you already have.  Without hooking my V3 to the preamp sounds good but through my preamp it sounds much better (for my taste of listening).  My test CD is Don Dorsey's Bethooven or Bust, Busted, Bachbuster, and another goup called Special EFX.  Sometimes I insert a Kraftwerks and Massive Attack CD for a change.
   
  Enjoy your V3 and check if there is no problem in balance since there's quite a few cases that the Bravo has balance problems. Then if you have, you can adjust,compensate the Left/Right balance output with your preamp (provided that your preamp has balance adjustment) Balance problem sometimes is unnoticed not unless you have an audio level meter to measure it.


----------



## Yangqui

A nice DAC or nice used preamp with headphone output from eBay will boost and process your signal from the computer much better.  I hooked my V3 straight from my computer sometimes but the ultimate sound is through my preamp. Of course I am using a Grado SR325i, Sony MDR-V6, and AKG studio monitor headphones.  If your netbook has a crappy output,sound as you said, you really need to process your sound through a DAC or a preamp not unless you are satisfied with listening it straight from the V3.  If you have a nice preamp like the one I mentioned you may realize that you may not not need your Bravo at all!  But with the Bravo, it will sound better and "look cool". From the mini-pin headphone output of your computer to the RCA Aux/CD input jacks of your preamp, you will hear a much better and improved processed sound to your headphone that your Bravo is limited to provide. Again, it will be much better if you choose to put your Bravo between the computer and the preamp.


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Yea, ill be running my comuter to the Xmod DAC to the Bravo, dont have the cash money for a very nice dac just now. 
   
  Question, since the Xmod has line out, what is the better input to use on my bravo, the mini (i have a nice interconnect for that, fancy thick hand made cable) or the rca inputs? (i have a mini to rca that is not as nice as my mini to mini but still has the gold ends, go radioshack!)


----------



## ulyses

I ordered a dac19 dsp. It will be interesting to see that quality dac pair with this little amp. Later I will purchase a c2 off course, but Bravo will be on duty for some time. I believe it won't be a disappointment.


----------



## Yangqui

It won't matter if you use mini-pin to RCA or mini to mini, gold plated or not, it will not change the sound especially for a short cable. Gold plating on terminals are coated for better protection to corrosion.  Not unless you use a pure silver (best conductor) wire and equipment to measure the resistance you won't know or  the difference.


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


steve eddy said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


----------



## hatchesjoe

besides the low quality of the power supply included with the bravo, why are so many people talking about switching? is it really noisy or what? and what is the difference between a regulated power supply vs an unregulated one? id like to build an enclosed power supply so i could skip the trip to radioshack when those "little black boxes" between the amp and the wall poop out on me. i still havent adopted a bravo yet... but wanted to get some feedback on powersupplies...


----------



## haz101

The Mullard value I got for the bravo sounds fantastic!! Its like a breath a fresh air, very nice!!
   
  I've just ordered myself some Grado SR80I headphones, I'am also using an Asus Xonar D2 as a source.
   
  So I should be in for a real treat!!


----------



## lawrywild

Which Mullard did you get? I'm confused about all this long plate, short plate, halo getter, square getter stuff and how much the difference in prices on ebay seem to be.. 
  
  Quote: 





haz101 said:


> The Mullard value I got for the bravo sounds fantastic!! Its like a breath a fresh air, very nice!!
> 
> I've just ordered myself some Grado SR80I headphones, I'am also using an Asus Xonar D2 as a source.
> 
> So I should be in for a real treat!!


----------



## haz101

To be honest I'm a complete newbie when it comes to values. My Millard cost £18 with postage. I will post a picture of it here so somebody more experience can identify it


----------



## haz101

Here is the value in question, Sorry the pictures are not that great but you get the idea.


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





hatchesjoe said:


> besides the low quality of the power supply included with the bravo, why are so many people talking about switching? is it really noisy or what? and what is the difference between a regulated power supply vs an unregulated one? id like to build an enclosed power supply so i could skip the trip to radioshack when those "little black boxes" between the amp and the wall poop out on me. i still havent adopted a bravo yet... but wanted to get some feedback on powersupplies...


 

 The issue is not regulated vs. unregulated supplies.  The issue is digital switching supplies vs. traditional ferro-resonant supplies.  Switching supplies are typically designed with cost and efficiency as paramount with "cleanliness" of output second, and traditional linear supplies put noise free output regulation first and efficiency and cost second.


----------



## reginaldnugroho

Quote: 





> I'd have to take a chance on the Miniwatt for half the price of a Mully (If you can get any tube data that is... My guess is that it is only emitting at 60% or so or has some real mismatched triodes.). If the data appears mismatched, don't waste your money.
> 
> And not to contradict my friend CPL593H, but I find Mullys to be typically warmer and more "liquid" than Heerlen Philipses (Amperex's parent company). I find the Holland tubes to be cleaner and more precise than Mullys. If the Mully is an A Frame, though, it will sound a lot like a Philips or Amperex A Frame. Both companies have awesome tube families and typically sound amazing, but as with any tubes, you want the triodes to be close to each in emissions - within 5% hopefully.
> 
> *EDIT:* If Rs stands for Indian rupees, the Miniwatt is about $17 USD a real decent price for a good tube. If the tube is good, snap it up!! That makes that Mully about $35 USD, which I consider pretty expensive and the Heerlen Philips about $27 USD, still pricey but a better deal than the Mully. My advice is to haggle, if possible. I'd try to reduce the price by at least 250 for each.


 

  Hi JB...
  First of all thanks for all the information you've provided here... I'm a newbie tube amp and bravo amp (in fact its still on its way)... pardon me for the poor knowledge on this stuff...
   
   
  Following your recommendation on the choice of tube... I found this philips tube in ebay (link below)
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270597483540&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
   
  is this the philips tube you mention?
   
  And I also found a sylvania tube, which was mention few time here in the thread. Is this the corect type and what do you think of them...
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160449434754&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
   
  cheers...
  Regie


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





reginaldnugroho said:


> I'm a newbie tube amp and bravo amp (in fact its still on its way)... pardon me for the poor knowledge on this stuff...


 
   
  What Version of The Bravo did you order? They don't all take the same tubes


----------



## reginaldnugroho

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> What Version of The Bravo did you order? They don't all take the same tubes


 

 Hi Ultra,
   
  Im not sure which version... but it was this one:
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/Valve-Class-Tube-Headphone-Amplifier-preamp-audio-amp-/260633178058?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3caef2afca
   
  I bought it last week...


----------



## Ultrainferno

That's a V1, so you're good with the tubes you linked. But I do suggest you do read this before buying any tubes:
   
  http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
   
  ciao


----------



## reginaldnugroho

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> That's a V1, so you're good with the tubes you linked. But I do suggest you do read this before buying any tubes:
> 
> http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
> 
> ciao


 
   
  Thanks for the input ultra...
  I have actually read that page befoe...
  But to tell you the truth it didn't help me I'm still scratching my head... =D


----------



## Judge Buff

Hi Regie,
   
  The Philips Miniwatt I was talking about in that post is a completely different tube than the Philips JAN 6922 that you linked.  I am listening to a Philips Miniwatt ECC88 (6dj8) in a modified Indeed G2 right now. I only paid $8 plus shipping for it. I do have a Philips JAN 6922 like the one you linked, that I only paid about $14 for, that sounds very good.
   
  The Sylvania JAN 6922 that you linked looks the same as the Philips in construction. I can't give you an opinion of it, as I have never heard one like it that I know of, but I have some Sylvania tubes that I really enjoy. Keep reading about tube types and try to find a bargain or two. It's also been my experience that a 6922 (E88CC) doesn't always sound better than a 6dj8 (ECC88).
   
This would be a great auction for you to get 4 Amperex tubes. If you can get them for around $25 plus shipping, it would be a steal!

  
  Quote: 





reginaldnugroho said:


> Hi JB...
> First of all thanks for all the information you've provided here... I'm a newbie tube amp and bravo amp (in fact its still on its way)... pardon me for the poor knowledge on this stuff...
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## debitsohn

uhoh... willl http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/444400/bravo-audio-funny-looking-little-tube-amps/945#post_6781614 that amp work with this tube?
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160453530396&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT ???? i hope so~


----------



## Judge Buff

The amp you show is a Bravo V1 which takes 6dj8s and variants. The tube you show is a 6189 which is a variant of a 12au7. You can't use it in the Bravo V1. You could use it in an Indeed G2 since that amp is setup to switch between 6dj8s and 12au7s, or in a Bravo V2 which is setup for that tube type.
   
  Regardless, hang on to the tube, though, as *it is a collector's item*.
  
  Quote: 





debitsohn said:


> uhoh... willl http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/444400/bravo-audio-funny-looking-little-tube-amps/945#post_6781614 that amp work with this tube?
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160453530396&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT ???? i hope so~


----------



## debitsohn

doh!
  collectors item? why for?
   
  thanks for the knowledgeable response


----------



## reginaldnugroho

Thanks JB...
   
  you bought the philips miniwatt $8...??? what a deal...???
  look at what this guy tried to offer me...
   
  [size=11pt]"The best tube for the cost is probably the Philips Miniwatt PCC88 pinch waist D-getter.  They are as good as the pinch waist 6922 at much less cost.  The PCC88 pinch waist are $299.00 USD per matched pair"[/size]
   
  Not including the international shipping fee, which he quoted for 31 bucks...
   
  Anyway I've bought the sylvania, just because they have a good deal on the shipping fee...
  and thanks for the heads up on the amperex... will try to bid for them...
  Cheers,
  Regie
   
   
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Hi Regie,
> 
> The Philips Miniwatt I was talking about in that post is a completely different tube than the Philips JAN 6922 that you linked.  I am listening to a Philips Miniwatt ECC88 (6dj8) in a modified Indeed G2 right now. I only paid $8 plus shipping for it. I do have a Philips JAN 6922 like the one you linked, that I only paid about $14 for, that sounds very good.
> 
> ...


----------



## MashBill

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> I have some 100 ohm gate resistor to swap in, they are supposed to improve the high end with IRF510. The IRF630 sounds better with higher gate resistor


 

 Anything to report on the gate resistor swap?


----------



## Judge Buff

1. A guy asked Mark Twain once for a recommendation for investing. Twain supposedly told him to "buy land... they aren't making it anymore." Old stock valves are in somewhat the same vein, and Tung-Sols aren't as ubiquitous as GE or Sylvanias. Especially 6189 longplate Tung-Sols.
   
  2. The eBay link posted looks like it could be this tube here . Whether it has a horseshoe (or D) getter or not, it appears to be a 1958 (5804) production tube. My guess is that the white numbers that end in 09, start with a 59. That would follow the convention shown in the Tubemonger Library link where the production date (dark etch) is older than the label date in white, but still in the 1950s. Very collectible... but probably not by Homer Simpson devotees.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





debitsohn said:


> doh!
> collectors item? why for?
> 
> thanks for the knowledgeable response


----------



## Judge Buff

Pinch waist tubes for one of these amps is *real* overkill! PCC88s are *7*dj8s and I got a couple of them for less than $20 each, but no pinch waists. Just to prove that I wasn't lying about my Philips Miniwatt, look here . It's the second one I've gotten from the same vendor.
  
  Quote: 





reginaldnugroho said:


> Thanks JB...
> 
> you bought the philips miniwatt $8...??? what a deal...???
> look at what this guy tried to offer me...
> ...


----------



## reginaldnugroho

Just receive my bravo...
   
  Had no technical problem at all... sounds brilliant... before I was using a mixer to drive my 125i and even though they sound alright, I can clearly notice the difference... I want to describe how is it better, but unfortunately I have no ability/knowledge to use the head-fi syllabus here...
   
  But one thing I notice is how when I turn the volume up via bravo, playing the ben harper "Paris Sunrise #7" and the Melody Gardot, I found... its not just the overall gain that comes up but also the vocal and guitar strings appears more... (again I am sorry for the not-up-to-the-standard method of review here).

 And again I am using only a grado125i here which fairly easy to drive... and... my bravo was in a just-out-of-the-box state...
  So I am assuming with more burn-in time I will be a more happier bravo customer here...


----------



## doorhandle

Hi chaps,
   
  Also just received my Bravo V2 (well last week)...for £25 it is a great fun little thing....and its soo ickle aww bless 
   
  I bought it as the beginning of my quest to find something to power my AKG K601 phones...I kinda bought high end phones with the intention of slowly getting the rest of my gear to catch up lol.
   
  Plugging my udac via RCA into it, and using my k601 phones is a bit hit and miss on some songs..jaz & instrumental tracks sound incredibly good, dance music not so good (though thats more down to the phones probably). My  at-m50 phones as ever sounded great, and really do benefit from the little extra power, compared to just the udac amp, or my denons headphone out.
   
  I tried an old Mullard tube (£10 ebay jobby), which to me sounded worse than the stock chinese one...maybe it needs breaking in? As at high'ish volumes the top ends of tracks are very very harsh sounding..but that was only after 2-3hrs...not a great start to my tube rolling experience.
   
  Build quality is very nice, suprisingly so, and delivery to the UK from HK was under a week.
   
  But as my first hybrid/tube amp it has got me interested, which is a good thing and you cant knock that!  Next stop a schiit maybe...


----------



## reginaldnugroho

has anyone used the bravo with a k701...
  I am planning to buy K701 in the near time and bravo is currently the only amp I have...
   
  so share any comments or experience...
  cheers...


----------



## Judge Buff

Great tubes at a really good price for a Bravo V2 or Indeed G2. I have one of these black plate Raytheons and it's very nice. While YMMV, the tube type is sonically awesome... this ebay auction, here .


----------



## Ultrainferno

I just ordered one, for that price it was a no brainer.
  So, 280 stands for Raytheon, 59 the year, but 25C? Week 25 batch C?  Judge, can you help me out please? 
   
  Each day the Bravo V2 impresses me more and more, love it with the RCA clear top


----------



## mythless

What is the difference between the V1 Deluxe and the V2?  Different socket and tubes?


----------



## lozanoa11

Did they stop selling these? Mine blew after our transformer got hit by lightning. Trying to make a claim but cannot find it on ebay anymore.


----------



## Judge Buff

Can't speak to the "280," but I think you're dead-on with the rest of the sequence. I'm guessing here, but it smells right! LOL
   
  My 16 y.o. daughter really likes the V2 I gave her. It currently has a Sylvania GB 5814A w/gold pins in it. She also has custody of my SRH440s. I'm creating a monster, apparently...
   
  I don't care what anyone says about the design of these little amps. The harmonics are nice and the output is better than the price, especially with an awesome tube. I hope you like the BP Raytheon, UI.
  
  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I just ordered one, for that price it was a no brainer.
> So, 280 stands for Raytheon, 59 the year, but 25C? Week 25 batch C?  Judge, can you help me out please?
> 
> Each day the Bravo V2 impresses me more and more, love it with the RCA clear top


----------



## Judge Buff

The only Bravo Amp listed as of this time is this one.
   
  But there is a new kid on the street: http://cgi.ebay.com/New-6N11-Class-Hybrid-Headphone-Tube-Pre-Amplifier-/260632269352?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3caee4d228
  
  Quote: 





lozanoa11 said:


> Did they stop selling these? Mine blew after our transformer got hit by lightning. Trying to make a claim but cannot find it on ebay anymore.


----------



## mythless

removed


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





lozanoa11 said:


> Did they stop selling these? Mine blew after our transformer got hit by lightning. Trying to make a claim but cannot find it on ebay anymore.


 

 Still for sale, versions V1, V2, and V3. There's even an auction up
   
  http://shop.benl.ebay.be/bravodeal4you/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686
   
  @Judge, I'll let you know. shipment still wasn't confirmed....


----------



## genclaymore

I wish they made one with sides on it.Even if it clear with vents on it. I even take one with a fan in it.


----------



## Judge Buff

There are some DIY cases out there... Take a look at the Bravo/Indeed threads at Rock Grotto Audio here.
  
  Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I wish they made one with sides on it.Even if it clear with vents on it. I even take one with a fan in it.


----------



## hatchesjoe

since i like asking silly questions...
  has anyone attempted running a bravo on a battery? im doing a labor swap with a friend... i build her a mobile recording studio in the back of her van... and she patches my very leaky roof. and since most vans are very lacking in the tube department... i thought it would be a cool route to take. any suggestions?


----------



## lozanoa11

Problem with that is your van runs on 12-14V and the amp runs on 24V


----------



## Yangqui

You can buy a 12V to 24 volt car adapter or buy a 12V to 110V power inverter  and use the supplied AC adapter.


----------



## drewgolden

Hello:
   
  I've been reading this forum and decided to invest in the Bravo Headphone amp as well.
   
  I ordered both versions (v1 and v2) wanting to use one at home and the other at work.
   
  I'm a bit of a nut case when it comes to audio.
   
  I actually have ripped all of my music (42gb now, all AAC encoded) and stream it all from my iTunes server.
   
  On my end devices where I listen, I process the iTunes stream through an old-school dbx 3bx-ds to add some "punch" and perform some old school dynamic range expansion.
   
  From a can perspective, I must admit I don't know much.
   
  At work, I use a pair of Bose QuietComfort 2 headphones (I know, but I like them.)
   
  Interested in getting some headphones for home to use with the Bravo Audio headphone amp - something in the $200 range that go over the ears.
   
  And ideas what will work well with the Bravo amp?
   
  Listen mostly to Grateful Dead, Mozart, and 80s alternative music.
   
  Thanks for your opinions.
   
  drew


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Can't speak to the "280," but I think you're dead-on with the rest of the sequence. I'm guessing here, but it smells right! LOL
> I hope you like the BP Raytheon, UI.


 

 I just got the Tube. wow that guy ships fast, only 5 days from the states to europe by normal mail
  Anyhow, I will listen to it later but I did see this is a WG Pye & Co Rebranded Raytheon. Well the EIA code is 280 for raytheon, but i can't seem to find any info that WG did rebrand Raytheon, but one has to believe the EIA code. Tube looks good by eye, nice blackplates indeed 
   
  Hope it sounds just as good!
   
  Edit: Atm it sounds as if this tube likes the mids and the higher tones. Bass is still pretty good, but overall it sounds not as warm as the RCA clear tops. But I'm sure it'll change over the next few hours, just like all tubes I tried. (And the Beyers do like it warm, they're sparkling enough in the highs)


----------



## lawrywild

My Mullard (NOS from ebay, older style shield logo) arrived this morning... what a difference.. vocals are so much smoother and the treble is clearer.


----------



## debitsohn

you know, i have the PB1 and the asgard so i havent given much time to the Bravo with the upgrade tung sol tube..... its pretty darn good.


----------



## justhandguns

I just bought one off from bay-bay as well, It may take a while for it to come, I guess.....


----------



## Ultrainferno

Was here in just over a week or so, and you're not that far from me


----------



## reginaldnugroho

has anyone use them with akg k701...


----------



## debitsohn

ill try it out in a couple days when i get a k702 in. powers my hd650 fine.


----------



## ulyses

Quote: 





reginaldnugroho said:


> has anyone use them with akg k701...


 

 I am using it with k702. It's ok with nos tube. Not spectacular off course. If you don't listen k701 with better amp, you can be happy. Other way, you always feel there are something missing (sound stage, transparency, pin point imagining etc)


----------



## reginaldnugroho

Quote: 





> ill try it out in a couple days when i get a k702 in. powers my hd650 fine.


 
  Will be waiting... because I am also waiting for my k701... thanks mate...
   
  Quote: 





> I am using it with k702. It's ok with nos tube. Not spectacular off course. If you don't listen k701 with better amp, you can be happy. Other way, you always feel there are something missing (sound stage, transparency, pin point imagining etc)


 
   
  Thank you for the information ulyses... guess I'll better start saving for a new amp...
  May I know what do you use to power up your K702?
  Do you think the K70x goes better with ss amp or tube?
   
  Cheers...


----------



## lasttodie

Anybody tried this amp with Beyerdynamic DT 770 pro 80 ohm or Beyerdynamic DT 302?


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Cant speak for tose beyermodles, but im listening to a pair of dt990s (250 ohm). Oh my god, my bravo v3 sounds like god.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> ...I don't care what anyone says about the design of these little amps. The harmonics are nice and the output is better than the price, especially with an awesome tube. ...


 

 Gotta agree with you. The output is better than the price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  USG


----------



## debitsohn

100% agree. output is better than price.


----------



## krankkall

I'm running an old pair of 600 ohm, Beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro's with my little BRAVO.
  Sounds pretty nice IMO, even with an el-cheapo ($6) NOS 1960's Sylvania 6DJ8 tube.
   
  Steve


----------



## rotzetool

Hi
  I bought a 12AU7 Bravo Audio Amp a few month ago.
  The first one I received was broken but I got another one completly free and it's pretty awesome.
  Now I'm trying to repair the first one.
   
  The problem is I dont get any sound output. I hear the clicking when I turn it on and both LEDs work.
  The left (when the output jack is facing you) Voltage Regulator (with the silver heatsink) gets extremly hot. I switched it but it didnt help.
   
  Anybody got an idea what I could try?
   
  Update: Noticed that the third resistor on the right between tube and capacitor has 220 Ohm instead of 7,5 Ohm.


----------



## Judge Buff

Get a schematic off of this thread somewhere, get a multimeter and start looking for open/shorted circuits. You've been given a free board to modify as you want. I'd look from the tube socket forward (or headphone jack backwards through socket) since you apparently have juice to the LEDs. Heck, replace everything with good components... It's a good opp to practice de/soldering, reflowing, replacing and just playing with the board... Have fun with it.
  
  Quote: 





rotzetool said:


> Hi
> I bought a 12AU7 Bravo Audio Amp a few month ago.
> The first one I received was broken but I got another one completly free and it's pretty awesome.
> Now I'm trying to repair the first one.
> ...


----------



## Judge Buff

USG, OMG, you are agreeing with me concerning these curious amps! It's gotta be a sign of the Apocalypse!
   
  Look, USG, trust me for once. Put one of these in it. Best $4 plus shipping you'll ever spend!
   
  And replace the output caps with these or KZs and the sound is exponentially better for only around $2-$3 plus shipping.
  
  Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> Gotta agree with you. The output is better than the price.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rotzetool

I don't really know which parts I should buy and change.
  Till now I changed the MOSFET from IRF630 to IRF510 and tried diffrent tubes (got a electro harmonix and a Brimar).
   
  What does the Crosstalk improvement do?
  It will completely separate the channels from each other, right?


----------



## ulyses

Quote: 





reginaldnugroho said:


> Will be waiting... because I am also waiting for my k701... thanks mate...
> 
> 
> Thank you for the information ulyses... guess I'll better start saving for a new amp...
> ...


 
  I am using Bravo v2 right now with my k702 for saving some money to Audio-gd c2.  But I used better amps as you can see in my signature (Little dot, Canamp). K702 suits well with this hybrid desing. How ever, I prefer solid state. That's my taste off course. On the other hand, I didn't listen high quaility tube amp with K702 till now. May be I could like them too if I did.


----------



## yhong26

hi,the Bravo amp is natural?And it enough power to drive Yamaha HP-3(ortho) that is "light-drive" compare to other ortho.


----------



## Roscoeiii

My Indeed G2 (a variant of the Bravo) had no problem driving my HE-5LEs. Surprising amount of room left on the dial.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





roscoeiii said:


> My Indeed G2 (a variant of the Bravo) had no problem driving my HE-5LEs. Surprising amount of room left on the dial.


 

 Cool! so i won't have problems with the audeze lcd2!


----------



## Tinola

I bought a V2 from a headfier that includes a NOS Tung Sol 12AU7 tube. Would it sound fine with an SR225 or would it be to overpowering? Still deciding what headphones to pair the V2's with.
   
  Any suggestions? Looking at K701/702, D2000s, and SR225i's


----------



## atomant

I just got a Bravo v2 based on the discussions in this forum.
   
  I don't hear the cross talk either. Maybe its my phones or maybe my ears :-0
   
  On another note, can those who have tried swapping tubes please recommend the best tubes for easy listening music (to replace the stock 12AU7)?  Kindly list in order of your preference.
   
  I've been looking at ebay but the prices+postage to Oz is crazy


----------



## Ultrainferno

I prefer the RCA 1960s Clear tops, then the Raytheon Tube Black Plate That Judge advised. There are lots of recommendations in this thread tho 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  This is the raytheon auction: http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280552756354
  This looks like an interesting auction for RCA's: http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/12AU7-RCA-Vacuum-Audio-Tubes-2-Pcs-Clear-Top-M-SET-/370423510261?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2
   
  They're easy to find, just check ebay regularly. also read this: http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm
   
  enjoy!


----------



## nosaj03

Recently got mine yesterday and Im using it for gaming with my Astro Mixamp. I have to say that it gets loud and it gets AWESOME!!!!! Im just using AD700s, RX900s and HD555s so I may not have the best cans to utilize with the little beast but they sound amazing with this amp!!!!


----------



## rreis

Hi all, a small naive question. I've just bought this one
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120614152532&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
   
  I'll probably use it at work, from a PC soundcard. Anyway I was thinking in comparing it to the heaphone out of my amp at home (a Cambridge Audio Azur 640A) and would like to know where to plug it. I know I can connect it to the headphone out but this amp [the Azur] also has (in the back) a pre-out (?)... should I try to connect it there?
   
  I freely admit to my ignorance on the subject.
   
  Thanks for your help.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Yes, use the Pre-Out.
  Quote: 





rreis said:


> Hi all, a small naive question. I've just bought this one
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120614152532&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
> 
> ...


----------



## rreis

Thanks!
   
  (you got the one that escaped?)


----------



## DarkWinter

Hello I FINALY read though all of the posts in this thread and I am realy starting to like this little amp! I have found this on fleabay and am wondering if this is the same "Bravo" amp desussed here?
  http://cgi.ebay.com/Miridiy-Class-Hybrid-Tube-Headphone-Stereo-Amplifier-/120614426437?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c152e1745


----------



## atomant

Thanks Ultrainferno 
   
  That site descibes the tubes well - very useful for newbies
  will hunt for these on ebay


----------



## DarkWinter

I am Very interested in this little amp and am exited for it to arive as this will be my 1st tube amp and my 1st heapphone amp, I dont know how good it will sound with my HD 448s tbh. interesting to see!


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





darkwinter said:


> Hello I FINALY read though all of the posts in this thread and I am realy starting to like this little amp! I have found this on fleabay and am wondering if this is the same "Bravo" amp desussed here?
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Miridiy-Class-Hybrid-Tube-Headphone-Stereo-Amplifier-/120614426437?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c152e1745


 

 It's not a Bravo, it's a similar amp, like the Indeed amps. Haven't seen this one before tho


----------



## DarkWinter

Just wondering would it be better to build one of these?
   
  http://diyaudioprojects.com/Solid/12AU7-IRF510-LM317-Headamp/


----------



## Judge Buff

My Indeed Gen1 has a miridiy circuit board, but this acrylic top is Bravo-esque with the Cap cutout. These guys have been in the Bay (US) for a few months now. I started to buy one "for grins," but I love my Indeed G2 too much to fool with another. I still have to post photos of my mods on it... Maybe tonight.
  
  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> It's not a Bravo, it's a similar amp, like the Indeed amps. Haven't seen this one before tho


----------



## Judge Buff

Looks like it could be fun to throw together when winter sets in... But I already have this unusual little critter: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/6418-Tube-Preamp-Headphone-Kit/  and a 6dj8 based board to populate. This also looks worthy of consideration: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Solid/Tube-Mosfet-Hybrid-Headphone-Amp/
   
  Too many projects... too little time.
  
  Quote: 





darkwinter said:


> Just wondering would it be better to build one of these?
> 
> http://diyaudioprojects.com/Solid/12AU7-IRF510-LM317-Headamp/


----------



## Tinola

I got mine last Friday, but now I'm waiting for my SR225i in the mail. It's gonna arrive on Wednesday. It seems like it's taking forever though


----------



## DarkWinter

What are you thoughts on the http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/6418-Tube-Preamp-Headphone-Kit/ it looks interesting, would you say it is as good as a bravo amp? Will it be good to drive my HD448s at a reasonable sound level as I have found many amps seem to push them too much and ends up being very loud.


----------



## s0126471

I have recently purchased a Bravo Audio V1, and thinking about getting the V3 as well.  Both seem to be very good value for what they do.
   
  I've had a browse through this forum (all 68 pages of it).  It would be nice if someone put a blog/something that shows exactly what components to replace and how to replace them to 'upgrade' it.  E.g. how to take off a capacitor and what to do to replace it (replacement item, equipment).
   
  Theres a lot of this done in the forums, but only sporadic discussions and not one full 'use this post for reference to improve the amplifiers'.


----------



## krankkall

I read somewhere, that ALL the Indeed/Bravo/ Miridiy hybrid tube amps, came from the SAME manufacturer??
  IMHO, the biggest upgrades to these amps are:  A NOS American/Japanese/European tube & higher current PSU.
  I think it's pure folly though, to spend $99+ on a NOS European tube, for a $70 - $80 amp!?
  Japanese Matsushita/Hitachi/Toshiba make VERY good 6DJ8/6922 tubes, for NOT a lot of $$$.
  Even inexpensive (read - cheap) GE and Sylvania tubes, will usually outperform current Chinese and Russian 6DJ8/6922 tubes.
  BTW:  RCA branded 6DJ8/6922 can often be real "sleepers", since RCA NEVER manufactured 6DJ8/6922 tubes.
  RCA branded "Made In Holland" 6DJ8/6922 tubes were actually manufactured by Amperex.
  RCA branded "Made In USA" 6DJ8/6922 tubes were manufactured by either Amperex USA or Sylvania.
   
  Have fun people!!
  Steve


----------



## Avro_Arrow

It is not too hard to tell, all of these Bravo, Indeed, Mirindiy are not only from the same contract manufacturer, but were also
  all designed by the same person.
   
  As far as I can tell, they are all take-offs of an earlier Sijosae design.
  
  Quote: 





krankkall said:


> I read somewhere, that ALL the Indeed/Bravo/ Miridiy hybrid tube amps, came from the SAME manufacturer??
> IMHO, the biggest upgrades to these amps are:  A NOS American/Japanese/European tube & higher current PSU.
> I think it's pure folly though, to spend $99+ on a NOS European tube, for a $70 - $80 amp!?
> Japanese Matsushita/Hitachi/Toshiba make VERY good 6DJ8/6922 tubes, for NOT a lot of $$$.
> ...


----------



## Tinola

Mine has a tung sol 6189 tube(3223). Is that good enough? I don't know how to tell what it sounds like since I'm a noob myself.
  What other tubes should I get? I have a 12au7 socket. I've been looking at US made ones like the clear tops, tung sol black glass, raytheon black plates and such.
  Anyone has any recommendation? I'm going to have a Grado SR225i so bright sounding tubes might be out of the list.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Read the page on audiotubes.com about 12AU7 tubes. It pretty much gives an impression of how the tubes sound. Or read trough the 68 pages in this thread


----------



## s0126471

Which Bravo amp do people here prefer:  The V1 (6922), V2 (12AU7) or the V3 (6922)?


----------



## reginaldnugroho

Right now I am using the sylvania... and it sounds great compare to the stock russian tube...
   
  I'm also waiting for a tube that was reccomended by JB below...
   
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> USG, OMG, you are agreeing with me concerning these curious amps! It's gotta be a sign of the Apocalypse!
> 
> Look, USG, trust me for once. Put one of these in it. Best $4 plus shipping you'll ever spend!
> 
> And replace the output caps with these or KZs and the sound is exponentially better for only around $2-$3 plus shipping.


----------



## rreis

funny, I've ordered the same after reading the same post


----------



## Tinola

Quote: 





s0126471 said:


> Which Bravo amp do people here prefer:  The V1 (6922), V2 (12AU7) or the V3 (6922)?


 

 I would say the 12au7 version, which I have.


----------



## krankkall

Probably a coin toss between the 12au7-based V2, and the 6922-based V1?
   
  The V2 sells for less, and good NOS 12au7 tubes are often significantly cheaper, than good NOS 6922 tubes.
  But many people feel that sonically, the 6922 is an upgrade over the 12au7.
   
  Steve


----------



## reginaldnugroho

Quote: 





s0126471 said:


> Which Bravo amp do people here prefer:  The V1 (6922), V2 (12AU7) or the V3 (6922)?


 

 until now I'm still not sure on what version I have... I bought the one with a Russian tube..


----------



## Tinola

Just won 4 tubes on ebay, hopefully they're good. One's a clear top RCA and 3 are Black plate RCA


----------



## reginaldnugroho

I feel such envy for you who's living in conus area...
  For me, most of the time shipping cost twice than the tube it self...


----------



## Judge Buff

Of the Bravo amps, the V2 is the best for the $$. Of these sijosae based amps in general, the Indeed G2 is the best "platform" I've seen yet for tinkering and has better sound than the Bravo V2... Much better after tinkering with bias caps and PS filter caps and output caps. A decent balanced 6n23p (Russian) in my modded Indeed G2 is a very nice setup, but right now I'm listening to a 6922 RCA rebranded Siemens E88CC with the bias set @~13V. Incredible stage, depth and clarity...
  
  Quote: 





tinola said:


> I would say the 12au7 version, which I have.


----------



## Cya|\|

So, wich tube would you suggest for dark sounding headphones? I'm talking about the audeze lcd-2.


----------



## Judge Buff

If you are trying to balance out the "dark" sound, I'd go with something more neutral like a Tele or Siemens if you can afford one. But individual tubes can differ from the "norm," even then, based on the equipment they are in. Those inexpensive 6n23p valves that I posted are very "bright" tubes but are very smooth in my modded Indeed G2. They have all kinds of headroom and clarity.
   
  I also like 12au7 RCA black plates and RCA clear tops for the bravo V2 and my G2 (which is the best for rolling tubes as it has a switch for both tube types). I have at least 2 clear tops that are really "bass prominent" though. That's the fun of rolling tubes---- What you hear is generally a great surprise, even when you know what the tube type will probably sound like. Every tube has subtle distinctions...
  
  Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> So, wich tube would you suggest for dark sounding headphones? I'm talking about the audeze lcd-2.


----------



## Cya|\|

Actually i'm looking at the valve that are already installed, on the ebay auctions.
  The eh6922 doesn't offer an auction, and is the most expensive.
  The 12au7 and 6111p are there instead, as auctions too, and i may get them for lower price.
  I'm talking about the version with dale resistors.


----------



## Judge Buff

Cya, are you talking about two different companies' amps? Bravo sells the electro harmonix 6922 in one of their versions (here), but Indeed has the G2 with Dale resistors (here). The G2 can use either a 12au7 (12ax7,et.al.) or a 6n11p (6dj8, 6922, 6n23p, ecc82, ecc88, e88cc, 6n23p-ev). Bravo also has a V2 that *only* uses the 12au7 (and I suppose 12at7, 12ax7, etc).
   
  My choice in all of these would be the Indeed G2 with the Dale resistors. It can use both 6 and 12 series tubes and is very good without mods. It is awesome with the mods I have made.
  
  Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Actually i'm looking at the valve that are already installed, on the ebay auctions.
> The eh6922 doesn't offer an auction, and is the most expensive.
> The 12au7 and 6111p are there instead, as auctions too, and i may get them for lower price.
> I'm talking about the version with dale resistors.


----------



## Super Funk

Hello everybody! I gave a quick look through random posts in this thread, but they're too many to read all of them.
  I purchased a Bravo V2, and it's not arrived yet...
  While i'm waiting for it, i'm wondering if this little amplifier can do a good job on the AKG K601.
  I have the K141mk2 at the moment, but i'm thinking about getting a pair of K241 or K601, because i have found some interesting prices on them.
  Can someone help me on this? can this amp properly drive those headphones with higher impedance???


----------



## Ultrainferno

It can drive Beyers 600ohm perfectly, but its not only about the impedance


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Cya, are you talking about two different companies' amps? Bravo sells the electro harmonix 6922 in one of their versions (here), but Indeed has the G2 with Dale resistors (here). The G2 can use either a 12au7 (12ax7,et.al.) or a 6n11p (6dj8, 6922, 6n23p, ecc82, ecc88, e88cc, 6n23p-ev). Bravo also has a V2 that *only* uses the 12au7 (and I suppose 12at7, 12ax7, etc).
> 
> My choice in all of these would be the Indeed G2 with the Dale resistors. It can use both 6 and 12 series tubes and is very good without mods. It is awesome with the mods I have made.


 
   
  yeah actually i was talking about the indeed. They all seem similiar, and this thread is more often updated than the indeed one.
  Since you seem to know the indeed very well, wich tube version would u suggest me with those headphones? I don't an amp that transforms them into bright, as i'll also have the solid state fun amp for that, i want a musical tube, but NOT TOO warm.


----------



## Judge Buff

If you get a G2, get one with the 6n23p. Then for your first 6dj8 type tube, try and get a good Amperex (orange label and/or A frame). For your first 12 series tube, try and get a black plate or clear top RCA. Then buy what you can afford to roll... You'll find tubes that you really like and ones that don't "fit" your ears. Enjoy! The G2 is a great little toy to play with.
  
  Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> yeah actually i was talking about the indeed. They all seem similiar, and this thread is more often updated than the indeed one.
> Since you seem to know the indeed very well, wich tube version would u suggest me with those headphones? I don't an amp that transforms them into bright, as i'll also have the solid state fun amp for that, i want a musical tube, but NOT TOO warm.


----------



## milford30

*feels sad* just ordered this + a few cheap tubes from e-bay that people have mentioned... and on the order list for LCD-2.... bank account going towards 0... hope they arrive soon... hope they sound good on my D2000


----------



## zest

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> yeah actually i was talking about the indeed. They all seem similiar, and this thread is more often updated than the indeed one.
> Since you seem to know the indeed very well, wich tube version would u suggest me with those headphones? I don't an amp that transforms them into bright, as i'll also have the solid state fun amp for that, i want a musical tube, but NOT TOO warm.


 
  It seems the MOSFETs have a big influence on the sound, some people at Rock Grotto forum modified their amps because with original MOSFETs they had rolled of highs that make the amp sound warmer. The G2 has IRF510 MOSFETs, compared to other model, they expand the frequency range and lower the distortion. Output resistors also have some influence depending on which headphone (especially its impedance) you use.
   
  I had my Indeed G2 6922EH for 56$ (wining bid), it sounds pretty good, but I think I will mod it a bit, replacing the 25V power capacitors with 35V caps, trying to find the best output resistors (68 ohms seem to be the universal value), checking if the bias voltage has been adjusted precisely. I have to think about replacing heatsinks with bigger one because they're too hot, then I will try to find the tube that fit my ears.


----------



## krankkall

On the Indeed G2 and Bravo V1, the adjustments ARE a big deal!
  I don't know about the Indeed, but on the Bravo, seems the QC is a bit.....lacking?
  One channel was biased at 8.9v, while the other channel was biased at 15.9v.
  I guess in the Bravo factory, their DVM.....er.....no workey?
  Anyway, I biased both channels out at 15v, and the amp sounded MUCH better!!
   
  Steve


----------



## justhandguns

Now that you fellows are mentioning about changing the resistors! I just wonder if changing all the resistors to better quality ones like Kiwame and Takman is worth to try?
  Since we are all changing to better caps and tubes and why not upgrade the resistors as well? Anyone has tried a complete swap, if not, which particular resistors
  are more critical to the SQ?
  
  Quote: 





zest said:


> ...................................  I had my Indeed G2 6922EH for 56$ (wining bid), it sounds pretty good, but I think I will mod it a bit, replacing the 25V power capacitors with 35V caps, trying to find the best output resistors (68 ohms seem to be the universal value), checking if the bias voltage has been adjusted precisely. I have to think about replacing heatsinks with bigger one because they're too hot, then I will try to find the tube that fit my ears.


----------



## mhamel

One thing worth mentioning with the mods - the PCBs in these amps aren't very good quality, so be careful when de-soldering, it's VERY easy to lift traces and end up with a lot more work on your hands.
   
  That said, some basic mods can and do make a noticeable difference in SQ.
   
  I also wouldn't be too quick to decide on a flavor of the amp based on the claimed brand components they use... considering it's a generic OEM that is building for everyone, and the track record of legit parts coming out of China, there's nothing to say that any of the caps or things like Dale resistors are what they say they are.
   
      -Mike


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





zest said:


> It seems the MOSFETs have a big influence on the sound, some people at Rock Grotto forum modified their amps because with original MOSFETs they had rolled of highs that make the amp sound warmer. The G2 has IRF510 MOSFETs, compared to other model, they expand the frequency range and lower the distortion. Output resistors also have some influence depending on which headphone (especially its impedance) you use.
> 
> I had my Indeed G2 6922EH for 56$ (wining bid), it sounds pretty good, but I think I will mod it a bit, replacing the 25V power capacitors with 35V caps, trying to find the best output resistors (68 ohms seem to be the universal value), checking if the bias voltage has been adjusted precisely. I have to think about replacing heatsinks with bigger one because they're too hot, then I will try to find the tube that fit my ears.


 
  Please let me know what tube you'll choose ^^. I'm really looking forward to your tube matching with the lcd2.
  But i'll stick to the stock tube choice. In the future maybe i'll buy a more expensive amp, i'm just a student right now. I'm paying the lcd-2 with summer work, but will end up with no money after that and the audio gd fun


----------



## zest

Quote: 





justhandguns said:


> Anyone has tried a complete swap, if not, which particular resistors  are more critical to the SQ?


 
  Indeed G2 and former version have some Vishay-Dale resistors and Alps potentiometer.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





mhamel said:


> One thing worth mentioning with the mods - the PCBs in these amps aren't very good quality, so be careful when de-soldering, it's VERY easy to lift traces and end up with a lot more work on your hands.


 
  If after modding you don't like the sound and want to go back 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Please let me know what tube you'll choose ^^. I'm really looking forward to your tube matching with the lcd2.
> But i'll stick to the stock tube choice. In the future maybe i'll buy a more expensive amp, i'm just a student right now. I'm paying the lcd-2 with summer work, but will end up with no money after that and the audio gd fun


 
  I don't know for your lcd2 and I don't want to spend lots of money for my devices, Popcorn Hour A100 as Flac server > PCM 1793 DAC > Sennheiser HD 580 (next will be Fischer Audio FA003). I don't think expensive tubes such as Telefunken or Amperex Buggleboy would fit my budget setup, I'll try with some Genalex, Tungsram or Matsushita tubes.


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





zest said:


> Indeed G2 and former version have some Vishay-Dale resistors and Alps potentiometer.


 

 Yes, I realised that. But I have the Bravo V2, which has a shabby black PCB. I don't have much time this month, otherwise, I am planning to have a majob op with the little amp with some new caps and resistors. I have already got some components on the way :  2x Silmic II 1000uF two output caps, 2x Nichicon FW 4700uF caps for the power supply, 2x IRL530 MOSFET, Some Sylvania and Mullard 12AU7 tubes, a new toggle switch.
   
  The ultimate goal is to swap all the crrappy components out and swtich to some relatively better parts. There are some options on my mind as well : Gold plated 1/4" socket, gold plated RCA socket, Takman carbon or metal film resistors etc etc.
   
  On, by the way, I am a beginner in DIY electronics, I just wonder why some of you change the little bypass caps, the 1uF to WIMA type caps? What's the advantage? Please enlighten me!!


----------



## zest

My choice for output caps would be 2200µF to expand the low frequency limit, 105°C types because they're near heatsinks.
  From what I read 1000µF is more than good enough for power caps but 35V, 25V is too close to 24V of the PSU.
  It seems IRL Mosfets need less voltage than IRF, the LM317s will be hotter.
   
  I'm not good in electronics, I suppose you mean the little caps in  parallel with output caps, I know what they're made for, but I don't see the advantage of Wima caps.


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





zest said:


> My choice for output caps would be 2200µF to expand the low frequency limit, 105°C types because they're near heatsinks.
> From what I read 1000µF is more than good enough for power caps but 35V, 25V is too close to 24V of the PSU.
> It seems IRL Mosfets need less voltage than IRF, the LM317s will be hotter.
> 
> I'm not good in electronics, I suppose you mean the little caps in  parallel with output caps, I know what they're made for, but I don't see the advantage of Wima caps.


 

 Thanks for the reply. By changing to the Silmic 1000uF 25V caps, I have already noticed a difference in more robust low end. I guess it's also the quality of the capacitors that counts.
  I am now collecting the essential components, actually, I am planning to place the large caps underneath the PCB to avoid the heat from the LM317. I am also trying to source a slightly
  taller heatsink for it, but I just don't want the heatsinks to protrude the surrounding parts to keep the amp relatively compact.


----------



## jc22c

Can it change another tube like 6DJ8 or 6922 maybe 12AX7 12AU7 in this circuit?
  and change MOSFET can change sound?
  Is anyone hear about Indeed or Bravo how it sound is?


----------



## zest

Quote: 





jc22c said:


> Can it change another tube like 6DJ8 or 6922 maybe 12AX7 12AU7 in this circuit?
> and change MOSFET can change sound?


 
  There si a switch on Indeed G2 for changing from 6922/ECC88 (6V) to ECC81-82-83/12AT7-12AX-12AU7 (12V), but you need to increase the bias voltage with 12V tubes.
  Some people did measurements with Mosfets, with IRF630 frequency response was limited to 10 KHz, with IRF530 20KHz, with IRL510 more than 30KHz.


----------



## jc22c

Quote: 





zest said:


> There si a switch on Indeed G2 for changing from 6922/ECC88 (6V) to ECC81-82-83/12AT7-12AX-12AU7 (12V), but you need to increase the bias voltage with 12V tubes.
> Some people did measurements with Mosfets, with IRF630 frequency response was limited to 10 KHz, with IRF530 20KHz, with IRL510 more than 30KHz.


 

 There si a switch on Indeed G2 for changing from 6922/ECC88 (6V) to ECC81-82-83/12AT7-12AX-12AU7 (12V), but you need to increase the bias voltage with 12V tubes.
   
  How does we to increase the bias ?
   
  I means " Can you change sound in change IRF630 or IRF510 how about the different it is?"


----------



## Judge Buff

WIMA are very high quality caps. That's the advantage over the much cheaper stock film caps. I'd do the Silmics and the PS caps first. You may find that you won't need to do the MOSFET swap as the sound should really "open up" for you. If you do the MOSFET swap, you can use the opportunity to swap out some of the resistors. My Bravo V2 is "noisier" than my Indeeds are and I'm sure that the Dale resistors are a big reason for this. Increasing the PS caps sizes like you are doing will make the sound cleaner, too. It's all good... as long as your soldering/desoldering is decently done.
   
  Even hooked to a scope, I doubt that you could see (or hear) the difference between takmans and panas or dales in these amps, but I'd use metal over carbon resistors in any headphone amp as the results are typically cleaner (less noise). This is just me... There are several threads on head-fi about this issue and people get vehement about their "side."
   
  You'll reach a point of "diminishing returns" where the sound changes just aren't worth the effort you're putting into it.  The MOSFETS can be a pain... Tube rolling is easier and more fun IMO.
  Quote: 





justhandguns said:


> Yes, I realised that. But I have the Bravo V2, which has a shabby black PCB. I don't have much time this month, otherwise, I am planning to have a majob op with the little amp with some new caps and resistors. I have already got some components on the way :  2x Silmic II 1000uF two output caps, 2x Nichicon FW 4700uF caps for the power supply, 2x IRL530 MOSFET, Some Sylvania and Mullard 12AU7 tubes, a new toggle switch.
> 
> The ultimate goal is to swap all the crrappy components out and swtich to some relatively better parts. There are some options on my mind as well : Gold plated 1/4" socket, gold plated RCA socket, Takman carbon or metal film resistors etc etc.
> 
> On, by the way, I am a beginner in DIY electronics, I just wonder why some of you change the little bypass caps, the 1uF to WIMA type caps? What's the advantage? Please enlighten me!!


----------



## zest

Quote: 





jc22c said:


> How does we to increase the bias ?  With trimpots on the PCB.
> 
> I means " Can you change sound in change IRF630 or IRF510 how about the different it is?"


 
   
  With IRF510 you expand the frequency range to the highs.


----------



## Judge Buff

Yeah, that's true, but most adults can't perceive freqs above 16 KHz. Sad but true... There are other effects, circuit-wise, when you swap out the MOSFETS, but you'd need to ask a real electronics guru (like Avro_Arrow) what they are.
  
  Quote: 





zest said:


> With IRF510 you expand the frequency range to the highs.


----------



## jc22c

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Yeah, that's true, but most adults can't perceive freqs above 16 KHz. Sad but true... There are other effects, circuit-wise, when you swap out the MOSFETS, but you'd need to ask a real electronics guru (like Avro_Arrow) what they are.


 

 It is means the freqs is 16Khz or high maybe 30Khz. does you think that enough for we want?
  but in use opamps it can goes to 4Mhz or high. is that right?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

It's true that most of us would have a hard time hearing above 16 - 18 kHz but the effects of roll off can be heard for
  an octave away from the roll off point. Thats why you see such large output caps. It's not that we want to reproduce
  frequencies down to 5 Hz, it's that we want to minimize the effect the output caps have at mid-bass frequencies. The same
  is true for the high end. Ideally, we want the high frequency roll off to be no lower than 70 kHz. While Op-Amp and bipolar
  transistors can easily achieve mHz bandwidths, MOSFETs (at least the ones we are talking about in the context of these
  hybrid amps) have a hard time getting above 20 kHz. If you want to learn more about the output stage used in the Bravo/
  Indeed amps, it is based on the Szekeres amp here.


----------



## Judge Buff

You da MAN, A_A!
  
  Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> It's true that most of us would have a hard time hearing above 16 - 18 kHz but the effects of roll off can be heard for
> an octave away from the roll off point. Thats why you see such large output caps. It's not that we want to reproduce
> frequencies down to 5 Hz, it's that we want to minimize the effect the output caps have at mid-bass frequencies. The same
> is true for the high end. Ideally, we want the high frequency roll off to be no lower than 70 kHz. While Op-Amp and bipolar
> ...


----------



## Lazerboy2000

Just won one of these off the 'Bay. It's the Bravo V2 version with 12AU7 tube. Cannot wait to get my first tube amp and try it with my MS-1i!!!
   
  What's the average waiting time for it to get delivered to the USA?


----------



## krankkall

My Bravo V1, showed up within 3 weeks after I ordered it.
   
  Have fun!
  Steve


----------



## Judge Buff

While you are waiting for it to arrive, do yourself a favor and find a good 12au7 or variant. Search the Bay for "RCA clear top" and look for valves that appear to be balanced. There are beaucoup auctions out there right now and you need to snipe a good valve to replace the stock one.
  
  Quote: 





lazerboy2000 said:


> Just won one of these off the 'Bay. It's the Bravo V2 version with 12AU7 tube. Cannot wait to get my first tube amp and try it with my MS-1i!!!
> 
> What's the average waiting time for it to get delivered to the USA?


----------



## butt

got myself the Bravo used from local forummer, v1 supposed?
   
  also got myself the RCA Clear Top and Sylvania 12AU7A, but currently listening with RCA Clear Top.
   
  fed by Spitfire DAC, listening through my W1000, Rush 2112 album do sounded evil...


----------



## Judge Buff

V1 is a 6dj8 based unit I think. The V2 is 12au7 based... I am also currently listening to a clear top in my Indeed G2. One of the best in my inventory...
   
  BTW, "butt" is close to "Buff." Are we related? LOL
  
  Quote: 





butt said:


> got myself the Bravo used from local forummer, v1 supposed?
> 
> also got myself the RCA Clear Top and Sylvania 12AU7A, but currently listening with RCA Clear Top.
> 
> fed by Spitfire DAC, listening through my W1000, Rush 2112 album do sounded evil...


----------



## butt

hahaha...need to work out on my nick, so it has Judge in front of it...lol
   
  just to ask Judge, if you are using Foobar, how much will you set the volume slider?


----------



## Tinola

I have a clear top and a black plate RCA, but I couldn't really find the difference. I'm just a noob here. I'm using the black plate right now since I have 3 of em. I'm saving the clear tops for later.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

For amps that have their own volume control, I set the volume slider to -2 db.
  For amps like my Szekeres VE3 that don't have a volume control then the Foobar
  volume is the only volume control.
   
  I don't think I could handle both a Judge Buff and a Judge Butt...
  Quote: 





butt said:


> hahaha...need to work out on my nick, so it has Judge in front of it...lol
> 
> just to ask Judge, if you are using Foobar, how much will you set the volume slider?


----------



## butt

thanks avro, i think i'll try to set it like yours, -2 db..
   
  come to think of it, i think it's kinda cool if we put also Judge in front of Avro_Arrow...lol


----------



## spz

A couple of questions:
  - i'm considering to star modding my Bravo v2, somewhere in the 3d there was a part list, but i think it was for the v1...can i use the same list anyway?
  - are any good the Golden Dragon Tubes? Compared to the Sylvania or GE?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Judge Buff has several different versions so he can answer this best but I don't see why the parts would
  need to be any different from one version to the next....
  
  Quote: 





spz said:


> A couple of questions:
> - i'm considering to star modding my Bravo v2, somewhere in the 3d there was a part list, but i think it was for the v1...can i use the same list anyway?
> - are any good the Golden Dragon Tubes? Compared to the Sylvania or GE?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

As long as there is no Judge Judy involved...
  
  Quote: 





butt said:


> thanks avro, i think i'll try to set it like yours, -2 db..
> 
> come to think of it, i think it's kinda cool if we put also Judge in front of Avro_Arrow...lol


----------



## Judge Buff

She wasted a lot of money on plastic surgery, as she is probably the fugliest jurist I've seen... next to Ruth Bader Ginsberg, that is. If you look up "two-bagger" in the dictionary, it has her picture as part of the definition.
   
  Oh yeah, for you V2 folks or Indeed G2 tube rollers, I found this auction for RCA 12au7s at a ridiculous BIN price. Shipping is kinda pricey, but you gotta take a chance on a "new" valve at this price. I'm not going to tell you what my best offer price was that was accepted. I did it at about 2am this morning and it was basically a joke... No description is given, but they appear to be black plates and I'm guessing from the late 70s/early 80s.
  
  Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> As long as there is no Judge Judy involved...


----------



## Judge Buff

Changing the caps, power switch, I/O jacks, etc. will be the same. V2 has no trim pots for cathode biasing, though.
   
  I have no experience with Golden Dragon tubes, but the Golden Dragon Chinese Restaurant has awesome Kung-Pao pork... Sorry, I couldn't resist. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The Rock Grotto folks have done some awesome mods. I once again recommend that *everyone* check them out, here.
  
  Quote: 





spz said:


> A couple of questions:
> - i'm considering to star modding my Bravo v2, somewhere in the 3d there was a part list, but i think it was for the v1...can i use the same list anyway?
> - are any good the Golden Dragon Tubes? Compared to the Sylvania or GE?


----------



## zest

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Yeah, that's true, but most adults can't perceive freqs above 16 KHz. Sad but true... There are other effects, circuit-wise, when you swap out the MOSFETS, but you'd need to ask a real electronics guru (like Avro_Arrow) what they are.


 
  You're right but jc22c asked about IRF630 and IRF510, and I think the frequency range with 630 is too much limited, around 10 KHz from what I read.
   
  I found another good tube and not too expensive for replacing the 6922EH, Philips E88CC Mullard with golden pins for 35€.
   
  Edit: Just found La Radiotechnique Gold Pins E88CC tube for 19€ and ordered it.


----------



## myscoobysti

Can this amp power the dt990/600 properly? I've read that it can but I'm still a bit sceptical since it's not an OTL. I'm considering getting this (Bravo V2 / Indeed G2) or the Phenix G3.
   
  I listen to electronic, jazz and rock and I'm also worried that the Phenix G3 might not be fast enough compared to the Bravo/Indeed hybrid design. What do you guys recommend? Thanks!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





zest said:


> Edit: Just found La Radiotechnique Gold Pins E88CC tube for 19€ and ordered it.


 

 Too cool! You may have the valve "coup" of the month with this tube... I hope it is as awesome as this link says it is (You'll need to scroll way down to the Mazda tubes for sale to find them.)
   
  I haven't paid more than $20 USD plus shipping for any tube in my collection. That includes the Mullard e88cc/01 that I just take out and look at occasionally. It's just worth too much to roll.
   
  Hey, maybe someone could start a tube rolling thread with pics of their Flavor of the Day. What do you guys think?


----------



## zest

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Too cool! You may have the valve "coup" of the month with this tube... I hope it is as awesome as this link says it is (You'll need to scroll way down to the Mazda tubes for sale to find them.)


 
   
  Looks like the french seller is into vintage stuff, he provided some pictures, you can see the "F" on the second line, I hope it's not a fake tube.


----------



## myscoobysti

Quote: 





myscoobysti said:


> Can this amp power the dt990/600 properly? I've read that it can but I'm still a bit sceptical since it's not an OTL. I'm considering getting this (Bravo V2 / Indeed G2) or the Phenix G3.
> 
> I listen to electronic, jazz and rock and I'm also worried that the Phenix G3 might not be fast enough compared to the Bravo/Indeed hybrid design. What do you guys recommend? Thanks!


 
   
  Anyone?...
   
  I find it hard to get any reply in this forum....sigh! Is it because I'm a total noob? Or is it because I ask stupid questions? I just need some help deciding because some say the Bravo/Indeed can drive the dt990/600 and some say that the Phenix G3 can as well. I just want to make sure I don't waste spending my hard earned money because I have a family support and bills to pay.
   
  So please, anyone out there kind enough to help me? I'd be most grateful. Thanks.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





myscoobysti said:


> Anyone?...
> I find it hard to get any reply in this forum....sigh! Is it because I'm a total noob? Or is it because I ask stupid questions? I just need some help deciding because some say the Bravo/Indeed can drive the dt990/600 and some say that the Phenix G3 can as well. I just want to make sure I don't waste spending my hard earned money because I have a family support and bills to pay.
> 
> So please, anyone out there kind enough to help me? I'd be most grateful. Thanks.


 
  Hi, myscoobysti! Welcome to head-fi. My regrets to your wallet...
   
  Okay, now that you've had the "official" welcome, my first question back to you is, "How much of this thread have you read?" This double question (990/600) you've asked, has been asked more than once in this thread, I think. While I haven't experienced either set of cans, I'm pretty sure the answer has been in the affirmative each time it was asked, but I could be wrong. Read through the thread or do a search for those cans with the amps in question.
   
  Welcome aboard... You'll get used to it after a while.
   
  .


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





zest said:


> Looks like the french seller is into vintage stuff, he provided some pictures, you can see the "F" on the second line, I hope it's not a fake tube.


 

 I don't think it is, based on the following passage from Brent Jessee's site that I linked above:
   
*"Watch for tubes labeled E88CC with brands like Valvo, R/T, RTC, Miniwatt, Dario, Philips, and Adzam. These tubes are identical to the Amperex PQ and Philips SQ (Special Quality) types more often found in America, and are perfect if the Amperex is not available. Also rare in America are these same brands made at the Philips-owned Mazda factory (La Radiotechnique) in Suresnes, France. These usually have a capital "F" in the second line of the date code. They are sweet like the Holland tubes, with a bit better detail and punch at the top end, and still have nice balanced warmth."*
   
If it is a fake, it meets at least one qualification on paper. It looks like a particular Phillips type with a huge flash getter to me... I bet it is the real deal. I hope so for you.
   
  I wonder if Brent Jessee would send you a pic of one of his for sale by email. Might be worth you asking him.


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





myscoobysti said:


> Can this amp power the dt990/600 properly? I've read that it can but I'm still a bit sceptical since it's not an OTL. I'm considering getting this (Bravo V2 / Indeed G2) or the Phenix G3.
> 
> I listen to electronic, jazz and rock and I'm also worried that the Phenix G3 might not be fast enough compared to the Bravo/Indeed hybrid design. What do you guys recommend? Thanks!


 

 I dunno what impedance those headphones are. if they are low get this one, if they are high get the phenix g3


----------



## Ultrainferno

The Bravo V2 does just great with DT990/600. Try the RCA cleartop tube from the 60s, lovely bass!
  Oh and the 990 with 600ohm impedance have 600 impedance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (sensitivity is 96db)


----------



## myscoobysti

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Hi, myscoobysti! Welcome to head-fi. My regrets to your wallet...
> 
> Okay, now that you've had the "official" welcome, my first question back to you is, "How much of this thread have you read?" This double question (990/600) you've asked, has been asked more than once in this thread, I think. While I haven't experienced either set of cans, I'm pretty sure the answer has been in the affirmative each time it was asked, but I could be wrong. Read through the thread or do a search for those cans with the amps in question.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi, to you too Judge Buff! Thanks for the warm welcome and reply. I've been lurking here at Head-Fi for almost ten year now but only registered as a member last year and you are the first person to welcome me. Oh, and sorry to my wallet too...lol!
   
  I've searched this forum high and low, and other forums as well. The more I searched the more confused I got. From what I've gathered, the Bravo/Indeed and Phenix G3 can drive the dt990/600 but which one is more suitable for the kind of music I listen to? Some say that the Phenix G3 is too slow for electronic music. How about Bravo/Indeed? I'm eyeing the Indeed G2 6N23P that you recommended because of the better quality build and parts. Is it suitable (dynamic enough) for electronic music?


  
  Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> I dunno what impedance those headphones are. if they are low get this one, if they are high get the phenix g3


 

 It's 600ohms. Do you own a Phenix G3?

  
   
  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> The Bravo V2 does just great with DT990/600. Try the RCA cleartop tube from the 60s, lovely bass!
> Oh and the 990 with 600ohm impedance have 600 impedance
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for being so specific. I'm actually looking for something punchy because my SRH840 is kinda letting me down on that department. Is the RCA cleartop tube fast enough for electronic music? I have no experience at all with tubes and I've not listen to a tube amp before. Hope I'll not be disappointed...
  ..


----------



## Judge Buff

I'm pretty eclectic in my musical tastes, and I listen to a lot of electronica (yeah, I'm a cool old geezer.). That's what is so great about rolling tubes into the G2. You can easily tailor the tube to the music, especially if you set the G2 up to adjust the bias frequently (The Rock Grotto guys have an excellent thread on this.). I think you would enjoy the 6n23p (and 6n23p-ev) over a 12au7 clear top for electronica. I like clear tops for classic rock, country and jazz.
   
  Your tastes may be greatly different, though. These Russki tubes are very good, if you get a hold of decently balanced ones from the 60s, 70s or early 80s. The 6n23p that came with my G2 is from the 80s and is very good.  If you get a G2, you'll buy other tubes, though... It's too much fun to listen to the sonic differences between tubes and then change it via the cathode bias. Sorry for my wallet, too... I stay in the Mrs.' doghouse over these "bulbs" as she calls them.
   
  I'm pretty high on the G2. It's a good platform to listen to, modify and just enjoy. Modified, it's incredible for the price.
  
  Quote: 





myscoobysti said:


> Hi, to you too Judge Buff! Thanks for the warm welcome and reply. I've been lurking here at Head-Fi for almost ten year now but only registered as a member last year and you are the first person to welcome me. Oh, and sorry to my wallet too...lol!
> 
> I've searched this forum high and low, and other forums as well. The more I searched the more confused I got. From what I've gathered, the Bravo/Indeed and Phenix G3 can drive the dt990/600 but which one is more suitable for the kind of music I listen to? Some say that the Phenix G3 is too slow for electronic music. How about Bravo/Indeed? I'm eyeing the Indeed G2 6N23P that you recommended because of the better quality build and parts. Is it suitable (dynamic enough) for electronic music?


----------



## milford30

i just got my G2 it's so good for it's price, plugging it into pc is just crap..... really need a dac... luckily i have a ibasso D10 with a line out, sounds so much better....
  it's so much more musical than my solid state meier Aria.... sounds alot smoother...


----------



## Judge Buff

I also posted these in the Indeed thread, but I wanted to share it with all you "Bravos."



   



   



   



   
  The exposed wires are for setting cathode bias voltages at ~13V for each. The tube led looks blue here, but it's UV and it's awesome in the dark. This tube is a 6n23p-ev from 10/1978 and it is strong, smooth, balanced, clean and magical...from the sound positioning to the amazing range. I just got it yesterday. It may be the best sounding valve in my repertoire.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Judge Buff...thats just beauuuuttifulll....


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Judge Buff...thats just beauuuuttifulll....


 

 As my dad used to say to me in the early 70's, "Boy, you ain't right..." ROTFL


----------



## Avro_Arrow

You've shown me yours...now I'll show you mine...tomorrow.
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> As my dad used to say to me in the early 70's, "Boy, you ain't right..." ROTFL


----------



## atomant

Hey tube rollers
  My 3 12AU7 tubes arrived today RCA, GE, B&K.  Thought I'd share my impressions on these 'budget' tubes
   
   

  The RCA had grey plates, comes in a red box with plain black and white letters

  It has great bass - a pleasant surprise for me. Good details too. Treble is not pronounced. Most mellow of the 3.

  The GE (box says 3/64) has good bass too but not as much as the RCA. Better trebles and more balanced than the RCA

  The B&K has very tight bass and great treble. Volume seems lower overall - I had to up the volume one step. (btw - never heard of this brand. Not much turn up from google either).  

   

  I like the RCA the most, but I think the GE is more accurate.


----------



## justhandguns

I recently got some Baldwin 12AU7 tubes (Sylvania grey plates), they actually sound pretty good although I am sure they were just plugged right out from old organs.
   
  I am in the process of playing around with replacing resistors with Takman metal film ones, but the desoldering job is actually harder than I expected as like many others had said here, the Bravo V2 black PCB is just rubbish. I managed to life some of the copper traces and had to do a by pass for one of the output caps with a solide copper wire. I shall let you guys know whether if is worth all those efforts as changing the resistors to better quality 0.5W ones does reduce the background noise.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





atomant said:


> Hey tube rollers
> My 3 12AU7 tubes arrived today RCA, GE, B&K.  Thought I'd share my impressions on these 'budget' tubes
> 
> The B&K has very tight bass and great treble. Volume seems lower overall - I had to up the volume one step. (btw - never heard of this brand. Not much turn up from google either).
> ...


 
  The B&K is a probably rebranded from another manufacturer. If you can post (or PM me) pics, maybe we can determine who actually made it, based on internal structure. I have a few valves that have weaker outputs, too, but still sound good. Makes me wonder how they were when new... and how they were utilized all those years. These old valves really are pieces of living technology history. Like the "Cold War" tube in my pics above...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> You've shown me yours...now I'll show you mine...tomorrow.


 

 Oh great... Now I'm going to be envious because you have a _nicer_ one, or a bigger one, or a BETTER one. That's what I get from consorting with professionals, I guess.
  It's not the size or color of the bird that counts; it's the song it sings!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





justhandguns said:


> I recently got some Baldwin 12AU7 tubes (Sylvania grey plates), they actually sound pretty good although I am sure they were just plugged right out from old organs.


 

 12au7s pulled from old, working, electric organs are generally very good, because the organ companies had quality control arrangements with the tube manufacturers. I just won 4 strong RCA clear tops, pulled from Conn organs, for the measly price of $3.15 plus $5 shipping. I may be giving clear tops for Christmas & Hanukkah this year!      NOT!   I'm keeping them!


----------



## Ultrainferno

You just keep buying those 12AU7s Judge


----------



## Avro_Arrow

OK, here's mine...
   

   
  These are probably the worst pictures I have ever taken...
   

   
  I guess I should have dusted it first...
   

   
  I don't even know why I included that shot...it's terrible.
   
  Enjoy!
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Oh great... Now I'm going to be envious because you have a _nicer_ one, or a bigger one, or a BETTER one. That's what I get from consorting with professionals, I guess.
> It's not the size or color of the bird that counts; it's the song it sings!


----------



## atomant

Here's my B&K tube


----------



## atomant

The B&K appears to be a Sylvania black plate. Thanks Judge.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Why would I want to build a part for a toilet..?
   
  It has an op-amp for the output stage like the original SOHA.
  Maybe it IS a SOHA...
   

  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


>


----------



## jc22c

last time I saw he wrote about it is a Hybrid amps.
  tube is 12AX7 and OP buffer is NE5532
  single 12V power supply.
  and it say "you can rolling tube in 12AU7 6DJ8 6922 ECC82
  OP can NE5532 2134 ...."


----------



## dkimxd

Where can i buy one of these?  I've tried looking on ebay but no luck, do they have a website or something where everyone is buying from?


----------



## Lazerboy2000

Quote: 





dkimxd said:


> Where can i buy one of these?  I've tried looking on ebay but no luck, do they have a website or something where everyone is buying from?


 

 Just search on eBay for "Bravo v2" 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bravo-V2-Kopfhorerverstarker-Tube-Class-Rohr-GE2-/260665445518?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item3cb0df0c8e


----------



## mm38

how bout if i use this bravo V2 with my AD900? is it good?
   
  will be a problem if a powerfull amp like the bravo v2 use with AD900 ( impedance only 32 ohm)?
   
  thx


----------



## Judge Buff

Should be fine...
  
  Quote: 





mm38 said:


> how bout if i use this bravo V2 with my AD900? is it good?
> 
> will be a problem if a powerfull amp like the bravo v2 use with AD900 ( impedance only 32 ohm)?
> 
> thx


----------



## DeathFromBelow

Hello all, I didn't see an introductions forum so I figure I should jump right in.
   
  I bought this version of the amp and I've really enjoyed the sound. However, I am having a couple issues:
   
  1. If I turn on the amp with my headphones (ATH-AD700's) plugged in it doesn't want to start up, the triode lights keep flashing indefinitely. I have to wait until it stops flashing, then plug in. It's been like this since I bought it.
  2. Recently it doesn't want to start up at all. Same thing, triode lights keep flashing.
   
  Based on that does anyone know what the problem might be? Maybe just a problem with the tube or the power supply? It sounds great when it does work.
   
  I've already sent a message to the seller about it and I'm waiting for a response, but I'd imagine I could acquire replacement parts faster than they can ship from China.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Welcome to the forum and sorry about your wallet...
   
  Now on to your problem.
  I have never see or heard of one doing that before.
  The first thing to check is the tube bias.
  It should be about 17 volts as measured at the + side
  of the output cap.
  Use the pots to adjust the value.
  Other than that, time for a replacement.
   
  Quote: 





deathfrombelow said:


> Hello all, I didn't see an introductions forum so I figure I should jump right in.
> 
> I bought this version of the amp and I've really enjoyed the sound. However, I am having a couple issues:
> 
> ...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I'm so dumb...it could also be a bum power supply.
  Check and see (if you have a volt meter) to see if the supply
  is pulsing on/off or if the voltage is steady.


----------



## DeathFromBelow

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Welcome to the forum and sorry about your wallet...


 

 Thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





> I'm so dumb...it could also be a bum power supply.  Check and see (if you have a volt meter) to see if the supply
> is pulsing on/off or if the voltage is steady.


 

 Yeah, I think I may have answered my own question. The idea that it might be the power supply occurred to me as I was typing my first post. After that I unplugged the power cord, waited an hour, and hooked it back up. It turned on just fine.

 New question: Can you point me to a good replacement power supply?


----------



## gurusan

I have the 2.5A version of this powersolve SMPS and it works great for my indeed amp (the original PSU blew).
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/Powersolve-PS45A24-Network-Telephone-Mains-Adaptor-5a-/380246021682?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58886dd632#ht_1601wt_854


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





gurusan said:


> I have the 2.5A version of this powersolve SMPS and it works great for my indeed amp (the original PSU blew).
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Powersolve-PS45A24-Network-Telephone-Mains-Adaptor-5a-/380246021682?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58886dd632#ht_1601wt_854


 

 Hey gurusan! Welcome back to the land of the free and the home of the brave!


----------



## gurusan

Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's great to be back to the States after 4 whole years!!!


----------



## mm38

i use onkyo se-200pci Ltd as my soundcard and my headphone is AD900
   
  so, is the cheap ampli like this bravo V2 worth to buy to pair it with my expensive soundcard and headphone? can it improve my AD900 sound quality?
   
  thx


----------



## real128

First post here... Just got the Muse version of this amp.  It has a nichicon cap in the back (power) and two dales in the front (output I guess?).  Are these parts good enough to keep stock (or they might be something else)?  It's a great amp anyways.  Also the bias resistors are in a different position than the reference, its the lowest of the three.  Since this is a bravo thread I'll still call it a bravo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  Looking forward to first time rolling the stock tube with something else.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Just let me be the first to say "welcome" and "sorry about your wallet..."
  
  Quote: 





real128 said:


> First post here... Just got the Muse version of this amp.  It has a nichicon cap in the back (power) and two dales in the front (output I guess?).  Are these parts good enough to keep stock (or they might be something else)?  It's a great amp anyways.  Also the bias resistors are in a different position than the reference, its the lowest of the three.  Since this is a bravo thread I'll still call it a bravo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Balazska26

I have just won my Barvo V2 from ebay, for about 30 euros (I'm a European, so no dollars 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
  I hope it is going to drive my Sennheiser HD555 well!


----------



## mm38

please help me... what is the different between bravo amp and indeed amp?
   
  what is the pros and cons for bravo and indeed?
   
  is bravo V3 worth to buy? and pair it with AD900?
   
  thx


----------



## Ultrainferno

It's all been answered a few pages back (Bravo vs Indeed)


----------



## mm38

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> It's all been answered a few pages back (Bravo vs Indeed)


 

 oh, thx for your respond, i will seach bout the review now,hehe...
   
  but, i already read some pages in this thread, some people only talked bout bravo V2
  and i cant find review for bravo V3,  so, is the V3 worth to buy?
   
  and acording to the price, is V3 will be better than V2?
   
  thx


----------



## Ultrainferno

Well, I don't think people here are too fond of the equalizer version.
  Maybe you should stick to V1 or V2 or Indeed


----------



## mm38

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Well, I don't think people here are too fond of the equalizer version.
> Maybe you should stick to V1 or V2 or Indeed


 

 why they dont like V3?
  can u explain to me?
   
  please help, i have deadline to decide which one to buy
  thx


----------



## Ultrainferno

Well I'm not an expert, maybe you should talk to Judge buff. But I think the equaliser can be an element that could decrease sound quality.
  Correct me if I'm wrong anyone


----------



## mm38

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Well I'm not an expert, maybe you should talk to Judge buff. But I think the equaliser can be an element that could decrease sound quality.
> Correct me if I'm wrong anyone


 

 oh ok...
   
  and, i dont have sklill to work in electronics, so i wanna buy 1 ampli, and will not mod it
   
  so, can u tell me which one is the best choice for my AD900?
   
  i mean, bravo or indeed? and which type?
   
  thx


----------



## Ultrainferno

As Judge replied to you before, both Indeed and V2 will do just fine. For the 25-30€ you can't go wrong really


----------



## milford30

i don't know about the bravo, but the recent batch of indeed amps comes with a good tube (6622EH) and the bias is already set, setting the bias isn't a hard job you just need a multimeter and a screw driver, but if u don't want it to play and sound good without changing anything, indeed is probably a good choice
  
  Quote: 





mm38 said:


> oh ok...
> 
> and, i dont have sklill to work in electronics, so i wanna buy 1 ampli, and will not mod it
> 
> ...


----------



## Judge Buff

A three band equalizer is a GIMMICK! If you can *improve* any sound source with a three band equalizer, you probably need a new sound source... I'm not an expert in anything, but I've never seen a three band equalizer worth using, except maybe in a car, and that's iffy.
   
  mm38, Ultrainferno is right about any of these amps. Just choose one and listen to it. If you don't like it, modify it or sell it. They'll all drive your cans very well. You'll either love it or you won't. I still say the G2 is the best of this bunch, especially with the 6n23p. The G2 will do the least amount of _damage_ to the signal from your sound card from my experience with 3 of these amps. The G2 sounds cleaner than my Indeed G1 and they both sound cleaner than my Bravo V2. I'm guessing here, but I imagine that the MK2 would be somewhere between the G2 and the G1.
   
  This isn't a life or death decision... Relax, make a choice, and listen to your music for a few days. Enjoy...
  
  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Well I'm not an expert, maybe you should talk to Judge buff. But I think the equaliser can be an element that could decrease sound quality.
> Correct me if I'm wrong anyone


----------



## zest

Indeed G2 expand a little more the frequency range to the highs.


----------



## real128

I think G2, V2, MK2 is all the same amp, right?  Maybe a slight difference in parts or which tube they use.  I would imagine any version would benefit from a tube roll which will probably make the biggest difference.  The V3 is the one with the 3-band eq and as others have said, you probably don't want. My 6N11 sounds a bit noisy at times, and it definately needs some break in time, so consider that.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





real128 said:


> I think G2, V2, MK2 is all the same amp, right?  Maybe a slight difference in parts or which tube they use.


 

 I don't think so, unless V2 and MK2 have better Mosfets than IRF630 which are the cause of frequency limitation (rolled off highs).


----------



## Judge Buff

I'm pretty sure that they all were derived from the same basic amp, but there are some real differences that make the G2 the best platform (IMO) for this type of hybrid amp.
   
  First, though, I like that the MK2 has more PS caps which serves to clean the line signal. The 1000 uF caps areas will probably hold decent 2200 uF caps (I'm guessing here since I haven't tried this model.), bringing the PS caps to over 11K uF (10K - 11K seems to be a sweet spot on my amps). It has a better PCB than the Gen 1 Indeed also and the MOSFET shipping now (all Indeed amps?) is the 510 and not the 630. It appears to be a decent 6dj8 based amp.
  
  The V2 is just *okay* unmodded. I got mine for I think $13 or $14. My 16 year old daughter absconded with it and my SRH-440s and she says it sounds "good enough" for her. I did stick a very good RCA clear top in it, that she thinks "looks amazing" in the dark, but she doesn't recognize the sonic difference in the tubes at all. She also likes skull candies for iems... She has her mom's ears. It's noisy and grainy and has a raw edge to it. Perfect for the normal teen-ager apparently and 12au7s are ubiquitous. If I ever get it back, I'll do the crosstalk mod and change out caps, etc., etc.
   
  The G2 is primarily better for one reason: it takes either 6 or 12 based tubes. It is a much larger PCB than either the V2 or MK2, which makes tinkering with it somewhat easier for my old eyes and hands. Unmodded, it sounds very good to my ears (even with the stock, 1980s vintage 6n23p). It is extremely clean and crisp. Modded with additional and better PS caps and better output caps, cathode bias caps and WIMA film caps, it borders on being incredible for the money I have in it. The best thing has to be rolling tubes, though. I can go from a sweet caramel, 1960s Mullard E88CC to a bluesy, 1956 RCA 12au7 (black plate) to a head-bangin' 1970s, 6n23p-ev in less than an hour. Or I can leave a Siemens rebranded Sylvania 7308 (steel pin) in it for days.
   
  Remember, I'm into budget-fi solutions... I use this with a Zune 30 and an iPhone 3GS 16G. For the tiny amount I have in the "system," I am definitely pleased.
  Quote: 





real128 said:


> I think G2, V2, MK2 is all the same amp, right?  Maybe a slight difference in parts or which tube they use.  I would imagine any version would benefit from a tube roll which will probably make the biggest difference.  The V3 is the one with the 3-band eq and as others have said, you probably don't want. My 6N11 sounds a bit noisy at times, and it definately needs some break in time, so consider that.


----------



## pocketrocket

I'm probably going to get tied to a chair, covered in acid and cut with rusty razors if I say the three band equalizer sounds atleast fun to try. My AKG K 272 HD are a bit on the light side so why not, or does the EQ harm the sound quality even when set to zero? Anyway, I'd like to be running my headphones through Bravo V2 or V3 with uDAC 2 as the source, and my active speakers through just the Nuforce uDAC 2 since the Bravo lacks the connectivity. Should I be using the uDACs RCA out directly to my speakers RCA input, and connect the uDAC and the Bravo via 3.5mm out to RCA in? Aesthetically this would make the most sense because there wouldn't be a long cable running from the front of the uDAC, but a short interconnect to the Bravo which would be sitting nearby. Or should I use a stereo RCA -> 2x stereo RCA cable to split the signal from uDACs RCA out to the active speakers and the Bravo, or does this result to bad hi-fi voodoo and a painful explosion?

 The first thing I'd do with the Bravo is cut a black acrylic front plate and replace the clear acryl with black to match my decor. I know nothing about tubes, are there tubes that'd glow a pretty orange tinge, the blue seems a bit funky to my taste (I know I'm being shallow but you never know if you don't ask~)


----------



## Lazerboy2000

WOW! I just got this and am already in love. Its so different than my pa2v2 amp and seems to give the music so much more musicality! I really don't know how to explain it, it's just awesome. This is my first tube amp and for $50, am very happy in this investment.
   
  I'm going PC>>gamma 1 lite>>bravo v2 with stock tube>>Alessandro MS-1i
   
  Pink Floyd's "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" is breathtaking.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> I'm pretty sure that they all were derived from the same basic amp, but there are some real differences that make the G2 the best platform (IMO) for this type of hybrid amp.


   
  My bad, I meant slight difference in components choice or values are significant in sound with these amps. You're right, they're all based on DIY Sijosae's Hybrid amp :
   

  Quote: 





> The V2 is just *okay* unmodded. I got mine for I think $13 or $14.
> 
> You're lucky, I had my G2 for 56$.
> 
> The G2 is primarily better for one reason: it takes either 6 or 12 based tubes. It is a much larger PCB than either the V2 or MK2, which makes tinkering with it somewhat easier for my old eyes and hands. Unmodded, it sounds very good to my ears (even with the stock, 1980s vintage 6n23p). It is extremely clean and crisp. Modded with additional and better PS caps and better output caps, cathode bias caps and WIMA film caps, it borders on being incredible for the money I have in it. The best thing has to be rolling tubes, though. I can go from a sweet caramel, 1960s Mullard E88CC to a bluesy, 1956 RCA 12au7 (black plate) to a head-bangin' 1970s, 6n23p-ev in less than an hour. Or I can leave a Siemens rebranded Sylvania 7308 (steel pin) in it for days.


 
 Received my E88CC RTC gold pins tube.


----------



## zest

Quote:


pocketrocket said:


> I'm probably going to get tied to a chair, covered in acid and cut with rusty razors if I say the three band equalizer sounds atleast fun to try. My AKG K 272 HD are a bit on the light side so why not, or does the EQ harm the sound quality even when set to zero? Anyway, I'd like to be running my headphones through Bravo V2 or V3 with uDAC 2 as the source, and my active speakers through just the Nuforce uDAC 2 since the Bravo lacks the connectivity. Should I be using the uDACs RCA out directly to my speakers RCA input, and connect the uDAC and the Bravo via 3.5mm out to RCA in? Aesthetically this would make the most sense because there wouldn't be a long cable running from the front of the uDAC, but a short interconnect to the Bravo which would be sitting nearby. Or should I use a stereo RCA -> 2x stereo RCA cable to split the signal from uDACs RCA out to the active speakers and the Bravo, or does this result to bad hi-fi voodoo and a painful explosion?
> 
> The first thing I'd do with the Bravo is cut a black acrylic front plate and replace the clear acryl with black to match my decor. I know nothing about tubes, are there tubes that'd glow a pretty orange tinge, the blue seems a bit funky to my taste (I know I'm being shallow but you never know if you don't ask~)


 
  Bravo amps are headphone amps and preamps, you can plug the RCA outputs to an amp between Bravo and the speakers. The blue light comes from a blue LED which is right in the middle of the tube socket 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, you can replace it with an orange LED if you, or some friend, have some skills in soldering.


----------



## mm38

$50 ??? is it include shipping cost?
  i cant find price like that in ebay
  Quote: 





lazerboy2000 said:


> WOW! I just got this and am already in love. Its so different than my pa2v2 amp and seems to give the music so much more musicality! I really don't know how to explain it, it's just awesome. This is my first tube amp and for $50, am very happy in this investment.
> 
> I'm going PC>>gamma 1 lite>>bravo v2 with stock tube>>Alessandro MS-1i
> 
> Pink Floyd's "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" is breathtaking.


----------



## Lazerboy2000

After looking over my receipt, i actually only paid $42, including shipping. Of course it wasn't the first item I bid on so it took a little patience to get a good price, but it's not uncommon. 
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/Valve-Class-Tube-Headphone-Amplifier-pre-Bravo-V2-/260670308068?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb1293ee4
  
  Quote: 





mm38 said:


> $50 ??? is it include shipping cost?
> i cant find price like that in ebay


----------



## lazybum

I paid around $40+ including shipping too. Still waiting for it to turn up.
   
  The prices seem to be pretty bidded up these days. $40 seems to be the lowest you can get.
  I noticed that there is this particular buyer k***y that seems to just keep buying those bravo amps, and seem to be responsible for the high prices nowadays. Every time i lose a bid and i check the winning buyer and its this particular guy almost every time. And sometimes he bids up to almost $40.
   
  Maybe he's someone from bravo trying to prevent the price from being too low? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  edit: oh wow the postman just came to deliver it the moment i posted this! Time to try this toy out


----------



## pocketrocket

I don't see any RCA outs on the Bravos, only inputs, how can they be pre-amps? Also really, a LED? That's just.. Why would anyone in their right mind do that to an attractive product? I guess I'll just cover it with a small piece of black electric tape and do a small (maybe less tall, leaving more of the tube exposed) chassis for it.

 Nevermind about the question concerning RCA outs, I realized the G2 has them so now I'm looking for one of those.
  
  Quote: 





zest said:


> Quote:
> Bravo amps are headphone amps and preamps, you can plug the RCA outputs to an amp between Bravo and the speakers. The blue light comes from a blue LED which is right in the middle of the tube socket
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## zest

I thought Bravo V3 had pre-out RCA like the G2, I can select headphone or preamp output. About blue light, a crappy picture I took few weeks ago:


----------



## Ultrainferno

Bravo V2 does not have RCA outs. I hate the blue LED too. Judge or anyone have any idea how I can loose in an easy non techie way?
  Remember, I have no knowledge what so ever of soldering


----------



## zest

I think this blue LED is only for decorative purpose (if some experts could confirm), maybe you could cut the connections (at least one) with cutting pliers.


----------



## pocketrocket

If it turns out you can snip that LED then awesome, if not then I'll just have to make an opaque casing for it.
 I'd love to get a pre-assembled USB DAC and build a case with the same footprint as G2 so I could neatly stack them on my table. Anyone got ideas?


----------



## real128

I think I read earlier in the thread that the red led was functional but the blue led was not, but definately read the thread.  Sometimes the red led will come on flashing and the amp will not output sound until you turn it off and on again.  This happens when I first plugged it in to ac power (also when turning it on from a power strip, weird).


----------



## Ultrainferno

yes, the red one shouldn't be touched, that's mentionned before. Looking at the blue one now...must kill it...


----------



## pocketrocket

Okay, there's a guy with 50% of his total bids on the Indeed dealer in eBay, I wonder when will the guy stop stocking up on G2s. And yes I'm just pouting because I was outbid.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I had the same thing for the V2. I checked all auctions for weeks (I have no life 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and it obviously was one of Bravos guys who was upping the price when it was to low (imho)


----------



## pocketrocket

That just means I've got to start sniping on it *cocks his metaphorical Mosin Nagant*. I almost felt like giving them a healthy sum for a reputable amp but now I just want to rip their wallet a new one.


----------



## Judge Buff

You can't just cut a lead on the tube led. You must short it. If you can do any soldering and you REALLY hate the *blue* that much, replace it with another led of a much lower luminosity and a color you can live with... You can just put a piece of electrical tape down in the socket over the led if you are a real wuss...   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Real men put a UV led in it and then bask in the radiation cloud surrounding it... At least, that's what I do.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
*Don't just clip a lead or remove the tube led. It has to be shorted to complete the circuit! *


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





zest said:


> I got my G2 for $56.


 
  That's a great price for a G2. I got 2 of them shipped for $100.


----------



## Balazska26

Hey guys!
  Did you receive a tracking number from bravodeal4you when you bought Bravo V2 amplifier?
  I ask this because I was not given any tracking number and I'm a bit nervous.
  Yes, the guy k***y is making the prices higher on Bravo amps (I have lost 3 bids from him 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## Lazerboy2000

It took me a few days after I ordered the amp before i got a tracking number. Took 2 weeks for it to arrive


----------



## Ultrainferno

I got a tracking number for the V2 as well when I asked for it. I payed 36$ including shipping and it arrived in 1 week time.
  Shipping an item from here to Asia would be more expensive then that, so the amp is kind of for free


----------



## mm38

once more question
   
   
  i use a good soundcard i think, onkyo se-200pci Ltd

  

 so, if i use the G2, it will bypass the SQ from soundcard? or it will improve that?

  

 and my headphone is AD900 (35 ohm), is it any problem if i use headphone with small ohm like AD900 into G2 ( the ampli with big power an can support to 600 ohm) ???

  

 i ask bout this again because some people told me, my AD900 will be broken if i use ampli with big impedance output like G2, is it right?

  

 thx


----------



## pocketrocket

Don't know about your other problem, but no, the G2 will not bypass your sound cards 'SQ', because the G2 needs the analog signal input from your sound card, which has done the initial digital to analog conversion with it's own intergrated DAC unit already. So the sound source is still your sound card, while the G2 tube amp is only used to amplify the signal to make it sound more dynamic and bring in it's own flavour into the sound with the tube. If your sound card is severely lacking (which I don't believe) then the G2 won't magically fix it, but it'll improve a decent source by a noticeable amount. The best option would be to get a dedicated USB or S/PDIF DAC instead of using your sound cards analog outputs, but that's another story and another hole in your wallet~
  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *mm38* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> i use a good soundcard i think, onkyo se-200pci Ltd
> 
> so, if i use the G2, it will bypass the SQ from soundcard? or it will improve that?


----------



## mm38

oh, thx for your answer
   
  ok, i hope someone can answer my other question about big and small impedance because i am affraid if using G2 will broken my AD900
   
  thx


----------



## Balazska26

I have got a tracking number now, but I don't know where to track it. Could you post me some links?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Should be here: http://app3.hongkongpost.com/CGI/mt/enquiry.jsp
  Well that's where I had to track it


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> I have got a tracking number now, but I don't know where to track it. Could you post me some links?


 

 With Hong Kong Post, about all you'll know is when it leaves HK and when it gets to your country's customs office. It'll spend _some_ time at HK Customs before it leaves and some time in your country's customs office before it is back in the mail system to you. Each stop can be "days" if you are lucky, and "weeks" if you aren't. 3 weeks in transit is "normal."


----------



## lazybum

After spending about a day listening though the stock bravo v2, i'm not particularly impressed with the sound. Granted i'm using a pathetic old clip+ as my source and phones that do not really need amplification, but the bravo seems to worsen the sound by make the frequency response more compressed. The lows and highs seem to roll off very early, compared to when unamped. So this resulted in cellos starting to sound like violins 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Also, the bravo is probably not very usable with iems since they hiss pretty badly when plugged into it. The only improvement that i noticed was a slight increase in soundstage especially when listening at lower volumes, but not exactly by a lot.
   
  I'm suspecting that the stock china tube is main the culprit. Will review it again when the rca tubes that i ordered through ebay arrive. Will also be looking forward to picking up some diy skills and modding my bravo when i have the time. Hopefully that will change the above impressions.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





pocketrocket said:


> Don't know about your other problem, but no, the G2 will not bypass your sound cards 'SQ', because the G2 needs the analog signal input from your sound card, which has done the initial digital to analog conversion with it's own intergrated DAC unit already. So the sound source is still your sound card, while the G2 tube amp is only used to amplify the signal to make it sound more dynamic and bring in it's own flavour into the sound with the tube. If your sound card is severely lacking (which I don't believe) then the G2 won't magically fix it, but it'll improve a decent source by a noticeable amount. The best option would be to get a dedicated USB or S/PDIF DAC instead of using your sound cards analog outputs, but that's another story and another hole in your wallet~


 

 I think we have a language problem here, pocketrocket. mm38 is apparently concerned that the amp will make his expensive sound card sound badly. At least, that's what comes through to me, as he/she has PM'd me several times with the same questions that he posts here. I've tried to explain "distortion," "tube sound," harmonics, etc., but whether it's getting through the language barrier, is anybody's guess. When he says "bypass," think "transfer." As in, will the amp transfer the SQ from my expensive soundcard? Will it improve it?
   
  He's also concerned that the amp will "break" his phones because the impedance is 32 ohms. I've tried to explain that situation also. I could use a drink.
   
  All I know is that I spent less time helping my daughter choose a college, than I've spent talking to him about this amp...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





lazybum said:


> After spending about a day listening though the stock bravo v2, i'm not particularly impressed with the sound. Granted i'm using a pathetic old clip+ as my source and phones that do not really need amplification, but the bravo seems to worsen the sound by make the frequency response more compressed. The lows and highs seem to roll off very early, compared to when unamped. So this resulted in cellos starting to sound like violins
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The stock tube in mine was awful... for about 2 minutes. The new tubes should be much better... Any tube I've used has been better than the 12au7 that was in mine. Next thing is for you to get you a decent set of "CANS." Big ole full-sized cans... Look in the FS thread for options.


----------



## Ultrainferno

@judge, if you're ever around where I live I'll buy you as much beer as you can drink that night. I owe you a few as well


----------



## real128

Mine definately did not sound compressed out of the box, quite the opposite it sounded very dynamic (actually frequency response wise it sounds fine to me though its supposed to be limited in the highs, which I don't really like too much highs anyways - maybe you need some brighter phones).  And as the tube started to break-in the sound became much smoother.  Compared to the output from a receiver, quite a big difference.  The source could be the problem.
   
  Quote: 





lazybum said:


> After spending about a day listening though the stock bravo v2, i'm not particularly impressed with the sound. Granted i'm using a pathetic old clip+ as my source and phones that do not really need amplification, but the bravo seems to worsen the sound by make the frequency response more compressed. The lows and highs seem to roll off very early, compared to when unamped. So this resulted in cellos starting to sound like violins
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> @judge, if you're ever around where I live I'll buy you as much beer as you can drink that night. I owe you a few as well


 
  If I ever get back that way, I'll definitely take you up on that... but you owe me nothing. I got a better idea: lets go to Amsterdam and I'll get a prescription for my "glaucoma" and we'll drink until the dykes collapse... and the dams burst, too.
  
  Oh yeah, I drink German lagers, when I drink beer. The best I can normally get are St. Pauli Girls and Becks. One day, you and I will discuss the availability of Hacker-Pschorr... I made it to Oktoberfest (Munich) in 1979 and 1980 and I haven't drank much American beer (except Sam Adams) since.


----------



## pocketrocket

I'm too much of a girl to drink beer : | I won the auction on a G2, holding my breath for the next two weeks..


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> The best I can normally get are St. Pauli Girls and Becks. One day, you and I will discuss the availability of Hacker-Pschorr... I made it to Oktoberfest (Munich) in 1979 and 1980 and I haven't drank much American beer (except Sam Adams) since.


 


  If that's the best you can get I definately need to send you some real (Belgian) beer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  @Pocketrocket: Did you snipe it? For how much did you get if if I may aks?


----------



## pocketrocket

Didn't snipe, I was feeling impatient and I got it for a hair under $50 + shipping costs = 55€, by my standards that's not too much but I know it's a tad on the high side.
  
  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> @Pocketrocket: Did you snipe it? For how much did you get if if I may aks?


----------



## lozanoa11

My Power supply Died in a Storm a while back. What kind of power supply am I looking for to replace it? I know the stock one is supposed to suck. 24V 1-2A? Switching or not? Any links to tried and true ones? 
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> If I ever get back that way, I'll definitely take you up on that... but you owe me nothing. I got a better idea: lets go to Amsterdam and I'll get a prescription for my "glaucoma" and we'll drink until the dykes collapse... and the dams burst, too.
> 
> Oh yeah, I drink German lagers, when I drink beer. The best I can normally get are St. Pauli Girls and Becks. One day, you and I will discuss the availability of Hacker-Pschorr... I made it to Oktoberfest (Munich) in 1979 and 1980 and I haven't drank much American beer (except Sam Adams) since.


 

 You were kind enough to help me out too, so I'll chip in and get you all the glaucoma medicine you need if you come this way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Amsterdam mini-meet!


----------



## zest

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> You can't just cut a lead on the tube led. You must short it.


 
  I found a pdf doc from a Rockgrotto forum guy, there's a schematic, it shows LED+resistor are shorted yet in the Indeed amp.
   
  Edit: my G2 was 76$ shipping inc.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> If that's the best you can get I definately need to send you some real (Belgian) beer


 
  I'm more into german beer, but I wouldn't say no for some Chimay, Leffe or Gueuze.


----------



## lazybum

After another day of listening through the bravo v2, I seem to be gradually enjoying it more.
  Its merits are most obvious when listening at low volumes. I no longer need to turn up to the volume higher to hear the details and open up the dynamic range and soundstage, which is great since i'm always trying to keep the volume as low as possible for the safety of my ears.
   
  The "compressed frequency" still seems to be present though. Its kind of like the ends of the frequencies are gradually rounded off, and strangely, more so in the low end. Some stuff sound brighter than they should be (which is weird since i thought tubes usually add warmth), but theres not exactly a lot of sparkle either. Somehow i have a feeling its better than yesterday though. Maybe burn in happened (to the unit or my brain).
  I have a this will probably change for the better when i stick a better tube in though.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





lazybum said:


> After another day of listening through the bravo v2, I seem to be gradually enjoying it more.
> Its merits are most obvious when listening at low volumes. I no longer need to turn up to the volume higher to hear the details and open up the dynamic range and soundstage, which is great since i'm always trying to keep the volume as low as possible for the safety of my ears.
> 
> The "compressed frequency" still seems to be present though. Its kind of like the ends of the frequencies are gradually rounded off, and strangely, more so in the low end. Some stuff sound brighter than they should be (which is weird since i thought tubes usually add warmth), but theres not exactly a lot of sparkle either. Somehow i have a feeling its better than yesterday though. Maybe burn in happened (to the unit or my brain).
> I have a this will probably change for the better when i stick a better tube in though.


 

 Get an RCA cleartop pulled from a conn and I'm sure you'll find the warmth 
  Like this one: http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/1-Tube-12AU7A-ECC82-CONN-RCA-Clear-Top-Tested-/160485871660?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item255db4102c
   
  But for that one emissions are a bit off. Good ebay seller though


----------



## lazybum

Hmm i thought cleartops are supposed to be bright? Their name seems to suggest so 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (edit: ok i realized how stupid that was)
  I did some reading at audiotubes.com and figured the mullards are supposed to be the warm ones.
  I won some RCA long grey plates on ebay for a couple of bucks a couple of days ago. But since they're shipped internationally I won't be expecting them too soon.


----------



## thecure77

hey bravo owners,
   
  im thinking of replacing the power switch on the bravo V2. what should i be looking at for a toggle switch? any miniature pcb toggle switch would do just fine?
   
  any suggestions?
   
  thanks


----------



## thecure77

one more thing, how about replacing the fet with IRL530N? whatchathink? ....or should i go for IRL510PBF?


----------



## Balazska26

Quote: 





> Get an RCA cleartop pulled from a conn and I'm sure you'll find the warmth
> Like this one: http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/1-Tube-12AU7A-ECC82-CONN-RCA-Clear-Top-Tested-/160485871660?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item255db4102c
> 
> But for that one emissions are a bit off. Good ebay seller though


 
  That's exactly the tube I've won


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> That's exactly the tube I've won


 

 You may have some problems getting it to sound "balanced" if you can't manually adjust the bias on the cathodes.
   
  BTW, while clear tops are awesome, God listens to these tubes.


----------



## Balazska26

Quote: 





> You may have some problems getting it to sound "balanced" if you can't manually adjust the bias on the cathodes.
> BTW, while clear tops are awesome, God listens to these tubes.


 
  I have won a Black Plates tube as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160485872873&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
  This one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  How to adjust the bias?!


----------



## Ultrainferno

You can't do that on a Bravo V2 like you can with the indeed version Judge has


----------



## lazybum

Hmm so there is absolutely no way to adjust the bias?
  Ive just checked mine and it was biased at around 10v and 11v with the RCA grey plates that ive just received.
   
  By the way i noticed there is a slight humming but it goes away when i touch the headphone out jack and hold my hand there. Is it a grounding issue or something and can it be fixed?


----------



## Ultrainferno

You can, just not as easy. check out thehelp from the guys at Rock Grotto:
   
  http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m&action=display&thread=5297
   
  I hope you can solder and stuff


----------



## real128

So I'm guessing no trim pots on the V2? That's quite an omission.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





real128 said:


> So I'm guessing no trim pots on the V2? That's quite an omission.


 
  I agree... a $.01 resistor is a lot cheaper than a trim pot and since it works okay with probably 95% of the tubes in their inventory, there's no harm. That is until you start trying to roll tubes. Once again, I have to state that the Indeed G2 is the best one of these amps for rolling tubes. Every amp is limited in some way(s), but the V2 is definitely limited in getting the best out of each tube.
   
  Fixed resistance is fine, if you can determine what the resistor's value needs to be to optimize your tube's performance. If not, tube rolling becomes a *real* roll of the dice.
   
  With my Indeed, the optimum value seems to be around 13V, but there are tubes in my collection that I can't get to that value because their current draw is not sufficient to produce 13V at the max resistance of 2K on the trim pot. I can't imagine what they would sound like on the V2.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Actually, the version that does not have the trim pot uses "Grid Leak" bias.
  It is a kind of "automatic" biasing scheme. 

  
  Quote: 





real128 said:


> So I'm guessing no trim pots on the V2? That's quite an omission.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Actually, the version that does not have the trim pot uses "Grid Leak" bias.
> It is a kind of "automatic" biasing scheme.


 
  Can you explain how that works, A_A? As an old guy, I'm biased against any leaking...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, congrats on the MOT designation!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Thanks Judge Buff
   
Here is a link that can explain it much better than I can.
  It's from the US Navy "NEETS" module.
  You can go "back" to read about "cathode bias" and continue
  "next" to read about "grid leak bias".
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Can you explain how that works, A_A? As an old guy, I'm biased against any leaking...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Hey, I finally finished all the mods I wanted to do to my Bravo and I just had to share...
   

   

   

   

   

   

   
  Here is a list of the mods...
   
  Replaced IRF630 with IRF510.
  Replaced 220 ohm gate stopper with 100 ohm.
  Replaced crappy bias trim resistor with multi turn trim pot.
  Replaced disc bypass cap with 1uF film cap.
  Replaced output caps with 1000 uF Elna Silmic II.
  Replaced power supply cap with 10000 uF Nichicon VR.
  Replaced power switch with jumpers.
  Add cathode bias bypass caps.
   
  Any of the other mods I would like to do would involve etching a new board for it...
  Hey wait, I could do that...


----------



## pocketrocket

I've got to say I love the black PCB on the Bravo. I wish they did Indeed in black, I wouldn't be so eager to put the metaphorical paper bag in the form of a tin box over it.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

All I can say is "Wow".
   
  Did those last three part I put in ever change the character of this amp.
  I had not done the three big electrolytics yet because I need to order
  them. I had all the other parts laying around already.
  All of the mods had improvements on their own but now that I have them
  all done I can finally say this amps sounds really good. And I even still
  have the stock tube....


----------



## lazybum

I like how the caps are almost as big as the tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  By the way I still have not solved my problem of a humming sound that goes away only when I touch the amp. I don't know much about electronics but after some searching a possible cause could be a ground loop?
  I'd think connecting a wire attached to the amp to a ground would work, but at the moment i have no idea where to find a ground to connect to besides my body 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Anyone can help?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Are you kidding....the power supply cap IS as big as the tube...
  The output caps are as big as the old power supply cap.
   
  I've never heard of a Bravo/Indeed humming like yours.
  I might guess power supply, but the amp should be getting
  ground through your other equipment.
  What else is in your system?
   
  Quote: 





lazybum said:


> I like how the caps are almost as big as the tube
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Are you kidding....the power supply cap IS as big as the tube...
> The output caps are as big as the old power supply cap.
> 
> I've never heard of a Bravo/Indeed humming like yours.
> ...


 

 I have a 10K uF Nichicon KW in my Gen 1 Indeed that is almost as tall as the tube is _inside the tube socket_. And you are right about the big electros making a huge difference in the amps' sound. The PS cap that you are talking about really makes a big difference in reducing line noise and increasing the bass (my perception).
   
  My Gen 1 Indeed also used to hum in the left channel when I first got it. It disappeared after I pressed down on the socket (without the tube being in it). I'd also wiggle the PS plug inside the jack to see if that alleviates the hum.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I have power cap envy...
   
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> I have a 10K uF Nichicon KW in my Gen 1 Indeed that is almost as tall as the tube is _inside the tube socket_. And you are right about the big electros making a huge difference in the amps' sound. The PS cap that you are talking about really makes a big difference in reducing line noise and increasing the bass (my perception).
> 
> My Gen 1 Indeed also used to hum in the left channel when I first got it. It disappeared after I pressed down on the socket (without the tube being in it). I'd also wiggle the PS plug inside the jack to see if that alleviates the hum.


----------



## TheGame21x

I have one of the V2 amps on the way. It'll be my first tube amp and I plan on writing a review on it for my site (link in my sig). I'm pretty new to this "audiophile" thing (but I love it, just the same) and my budget is pretty strict because of my University expenses so my experience with headphone amps is limited to my trusty CMoy BB v2.02 and some portable Fiio amps. Any idea of what I should expect? I'm really excited to get it and give it a listen.


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





lazybum said:


> I like how the caps are almost as big as the tube
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I occasionally have the humming problem. But it is not there most of the time, maybe it is some kind of inteference? I heard that the Bravo is quite susceptable to inteferences.
   
  I have just completed revamping my Bravo V2 with almost completely new components :
  (In the order of sound improvements, for my own taste, of course......)
   
  1. 2x IRL530 FET --> hugely improve the highs, but if you like the warmth of the amp, just leave it, sounds better with closed cans than open cans.
  2. Output caps to Elna Silmic II 1000uF 25V (still very big, improves the low end a little bit)
  3. Switch the output resistors from 47R to 68R
  4. Power cap spitted into 2x Nichcon FW 4700uF 35V (same size as stock, but I managed to put one at the bottom)
  5. All resistors to Takman metal film resistors (reduced the hiss a bit, don't bother if you have Indeed amps)
  6. 5k trimmers for tube rolling (13V bias on each side for my settings)
  7. 2x LM317A + slightly larger cooling fins (couldn't hear any differences......)
  8. The two small 1uF caps to Silmic caps (are those the coupling caps?) couldn't find WIMA caps....unfortunately....
   
  I've also got some 12AU7 tubes to play around as well, but currently I am happy with Siemens chrome plate as
  it has low noise, a very open soundstage and quite neutral sounding. Actually, the stock Chinese tube doesn't sound too bad either.
   
  My preference : Siemens chrome plate > Baldwin (Sylvania) > stock
  I have another Mullard which sounds totally different from the others as it is significantly warmer in tone.
   
  I shall post some pics on later on today.


----------



## Balazska26

My Bravo V2 has arrived now. I unboxed it, pluggd in and the red is always lighting. Why is that?!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

The red LED should be on when ever the amp is on.
  The red LED is part of the CCS that biases the tube.
  There is also a blue LED. It should also be lit whenever
  the amps is on. It is purely cosmetic and can be disabled
  if you don't like the effect.
   
  Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> My Bravo V2 has arrived now. I unboxed it, pluggd in and the red is always lighting. Why is that?!


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> My Bravo V2 has arrived now. I unboxed it, pluggd in and the red is always lighting. Why is that?!


 


  It should always be on, shouldn't it?


----------



## Balazska26

I thought it shouldn't!
  Thanks for the fast replies!
  Bravo V2 rocks with RCA Black plates tube!


----------



## justhandguns

Here comes the pics!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As promised.
   
Switched on with Siemens tube



   
   
The angled power caps



   
   
The much larger Takman output resistors



   
   
The LM317A with a taller heatsink



   
   
IRL530



   
   
   
The Silmic output caps



   
   
This is what the amp looks like, plus the other tubes. A double-cheese burger for the Bravo.



   
   
   
  I still haven't managed to get a better switch, but acutally I couldn't care less. The cork type of small feet help to steady the little amp
  so that it won't slide around with the weights of the cables. The brushed metal volume knob is actually quite expensive.......
  The sound coming out of this little amp is cool, but of course, with the sort of effort and money that I have placed into
  this little amp, I probably could get a Little Dot 1 instead already..... but fun is fun, at least I enjoyed the soldering desodering
  part in the last few weekends.


----------



## real128

Nice pics.  But would the LD sound better?  
  I'll take a double burger.
  Hopefully you're not having to ship each part separate, that could get pricey.


----------



## pocketrocket

EEEEEEEE my post offices tracking page shows it's been through the main post office of my home town at 8:58 today! Seeing that it went through Helsinki's airport, post office and sorting all yesterday in a timespan of 8 hours, I might get it today *hammers the F5 button on the package tracking page*

 Damn I'd really want to order the FiiO E7 to go with it, but then again a Pro-ject USB Box would be just twice the price and I could get it instantly from the store and that would hardly require updating for my modest mid-fi needs whereas I'm a bit suspicious about ordering a FiiO through DealExtreme (the only way I can get it for under 100€ to Finland) and I'm very sceptical about it's performance although I know that an Audigy SE is a huge upgrade from intergrated sound in motherboards.. Oh wow after reading that run-along sentence I just realized how excited I and wired up on coffee I am.

 EDIT: okay so they cannot process a packet from one building to another in over 8 hours. Why do they torture me like this.
- Ordered the FiiO E7 for shiz and giggles
  - And now the package is at the post office, 24 hours late from what I had wished but nonetheless. Going to fiddle with it a tad in three hours, don't have time to do a burn-in (then again I really want to see if there is such in the first place (if the whole amp even works))


----------



## pocketrocket

AHH THE RIGHT CHANNEL IS ABSOLUTELY MUTE- Oh wait this is the bad RCA cable I should've thrown out weeks ago.. As an initial impression all I can say is wow. I really liked my AKG K 272 HD before, but in comparison to them un-amped and them through the Indeed G2, they previously sounded thin, and made most music sound like noise. Now the sound is now alot fuller, extends waay lower with really neat punch that wasn't there at all before, and little details in plucked strings and cymbals became way more defined and vivid! I ran them through my Nokia X6 and laptop integrated only, so I'm really looking forward to running them through the Fiio E7 that might ship tomorrow already! Having read a bit and tested very little decent equipment, I started thinking if this whole thing was a placebo but I've got to say, I was very skeptical and even running the Indeed through a relatively bad source made a significant improvement. Can't wait to get the FiiO, if it's anything like this upgrade I couldn't even ask for more.

 EDIT: Just received a really cool looking London themed aluminum case from my girlfriend's mother that's 11cm x 11cm x 7cm and feels quite sturdy. I'm thinking of drilling a few holes into it and making it a chassis for the Indeed G2. It'll look a bit cheesy but don't know, it might end up looking quite cool. I'll be away for two weeks so I'll see what kind of cases will I find for it.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Welcome to the club...sorry about your wallet
  
  Quote: 





pocketrocket said:


> AHH THE RIGHT CHANNEL IS ABSOLUTELY MUTE- Oh wait this is the bad RCA cable I should've thrown out weeks ago.. As an initial impression all I can say is wow. I really liked my AKG K 272 HD before, but in comparison to them un-amped and them through the Indeed G2, they previously sounded thin, and made most music sound like noise. Now the sound is now alot fuller, extends waay lower with really neat punch that wasn't there at all before, and little details in plucked strings and cymbals became way more defined and vivid! I ran them through my Nokia X6 and laptop integrated only, so I'm really looking forward to running them through the Fiio E7 that might ship tomorrow already! Having read a bit and tested very little decent equipment, I started thinking if this whole thing was a placebo but I've got to say, I was very skeptical and even running the Indeed through a relatively bad source made a significant improvement. Can't wait to get the FiiO, if it's anything like this upgrade I couldn't even ask for more.
> 
> EDIT: Just received a really cool looking London themed aluminum case from my girlfriend's mother that's 11cm x 11cm x 7cm and feels quite sturdy. I'm thinking of drilling a few holes into it and making it a chassis for the Indeed G2. It'll look a bit cheesy but don't know, it might end up looking quite cool. I'll be away for two weeks so I'll see what kind of cases will I find for it.


----------



## pocketrocket

I was about to pre-emptively thank you for all the condolences about my wallet but I guess that's spilt milk by now.


----------



## autonomous

Probably, a bad on/off switch, mine has the same problem. Poor quality control, contact the seller and he will send you a bunch of switches, but you will have to remove the old one and install the new one. These little amps do put out a lot of volume and make an interesting desk item. They look cool, especially under dim lighting.
  
  Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> My Bravo V2 has arrived now. I unboxed it, pluggd in and the red is always lighting. Why is that?!


----------



## TheGame21x

Just got my Bravo V2 today. Obviously, I haven't been running it very long but I'm liking it as a dedicated desktop amp between my Playstation 1 CD player (SCPH-5501) and my ATH-M50s! Can't wait to see how it sounds after it's had time to burn in! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Pics below.


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Alright guys, ive had a bravo v3 since july and i love it. today it started making a strange noise. Every few seconds it makes a noise which sort of sounds like "zzzf". its relay anoyng, sounds like an insect or some thing. any idea what could be causing it?


----------



## oohms

Quote: 





justhandguns said:


> I have just completed revamping my Bravo V2 with almost completely new components :
> (In the order of sound improvements, for my own taste, of course......)
> 
> 8. The two small 1uF caps to Silmic caps (are those the coupling caps?) couldn't find WIMA caps....unfortunately....


 

 It would be worth replacing the 2 input caps with non polarised MKT ones (should be able to find 1uF that are small enough to fit) - as there is not a large voltage difference for electrolytic caps to function as well as they can

   
  Also try doing the crosstalk mod, and play around with the output resistor.. anywhere from 10r to 120r+, has subtle sound differences


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





oohms said:


> It would be worth replacing the 2 input caps with non polarised MKT ones (should be able to find 1uF that are small enough to fit) - as there is not a large voltage difference for electrolytic caps to function as well as they can
> 
> 
> Also try doing the crosstalk mod, and play around with the output resistor.. anywhere from 10r to 120r+, has subtle sound differences


 
   
  Well, yes, I may try, but I probably will buy another one, as you all know, the PCB is so fragile, I fear that if I am doing
  all the soldering de-soldering, everything will come off in time.
   
  I am happy with the 68R output resistor at the moment, as for the non-polarised caps, I just couldn't get hold of them unless
  I buy them in bulk in the UK, which means, 10 or 20..... I decided that I am not going to splash out 20pounds just to get them after all.
   
  But the change to better quality resistors does indeed reduce the background hiss a lot. It may not be a problem for the Indeed amps,
  but for the Bravos, the resistors are just crap.....


----------



## real128

Try putting a nos tube.  I think the stock tubes are pretty cheap - my guess.
   
  edit:  you probably have an EH which is better than the one mine came with.


----------



## satkinsn

Man after my own heart. I've been running a Little Dot mk III at my office as a pre from my PS 1.
   
  My Bravo V2 is at home doing headphone duty but I've been thinking about switching things up.
   
  Please report more once you have a little time in.
   
  s.
   

  
  Quote: 





thegame21x said:


> Just got my Bravo V2 today. Obviously, I haven't been running it very long but I'm liking it as a dedicated desktop amp between my Playstation 1 CD player (SCPH-5501) and my ATH-M50s! Can't wait to see how it sounds after it's had time to burn in!


----------



## swbf2cheater

where can i get a psu for this?


----------



## pocketrocket

Good question swbf2cheater, something I wondered about myself.

 Is it the cheap stock 12AU7 tube or just regular tube characteristics that the highs seem really really rolled off? For now it seems like the headphone jack in my laptop can deliver crisper highs than the headphone jack through the Indeed G2. That's funny because initially the G2 sounded sharper, now after two weeks of listening it's a tad muddy, to be honest. Should get me some Amperex Bugleboy tubes, but shipping cost to Finland is a tad high usually (then again the govt might not be sponsoring my job training place so the tubes are the last thing I should be worried about).

 Okay the condolences about my wallet were spot on, damn my fetish for buying all sorts of crap.


----------



## Balazska26

http://myworld.ebay.com/cgvilela/
  He usually has very good tubes (RCA Clear Top, Black Plates and so on) at low price, and he ships in Europe relatively cheap!


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





balazska26 said:


> http://myworld.ebay.com/cgvilela/
> He usually has very good tubes (RCA Clear Top, Black Plates and so on) at low price, and he ships in Europe relatively cheap!


 


  I agree, its a recommended seller. Just watch out for the tube emission sometimes


----------



## aroldan

I have bought several 12AU7A tubes and here is my conclusions using Sennheiser HD595 (in the order I got them):
   
  1. Mullard Webcor tube: Is the most expensive tube purchased (paid 25USD for it) and is really not my favorite. Too muddy, not good soundstage and have some hiss when I approach my hand to raise or lower the volume 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  2. RCA BlackPlates tube: Paid 9.99USD for it and has the best soundstage. Pity it has a little volume imbalance in the left channel so I have to use software volume to balance the channels 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  3. RCA ClearTop: Paid 7.95USD for it and has the best balance of all. Very good yet not fatiguing highs, detailed midrange and deep bass.
   
  4. Amperex Bugle Boy: Should arrive tomorrow


----------



## justhandguns

I agree, the Mullard that I've got is (was) slight muddy when compared to the other tubes that I've got. Even the stock Chinese 12AU7 tube sounded a bit cleaner with less hiss.
  The tube that suits my taste most is the Siemens Chrome plate. The bargain tubes that I've got are the Baldwin/Sylvania tubes, I think I paid less than USD25 for 4of them.
  3 out of 4 are very balanced, and they sound very warm and very quiet indeed.
   
  But after playing about with the bias settings and upgrading some of the components of my Bravo, I found that the Mullard actually doesn't sound too bad when
  you set the correct voltage. You may want to try fiddling your amp a bit.
   

  
  Quote: 





aroldan said:


> I have bought several 12AU7A tubes and here is my conclusions using Sennheiser HD595 (in the order I got them):
> 
> 1. Mullard Webcor tube: Is the most expensive tube purchased (paid 25USD for it) and is really not my favorite. Too muddy, not good soundstage and have some hiss when I approach my hand to raise or lower the volume
> 
> ...


----------



## real128

That is tons cheaper than the ecc88/6922 eq. Mullard. 
   
  Quote: 





aroldan said:


> 1. Mullard Webcor tube: Is the most expensive tube purchased (paid 25USD for it)


----------



## TheGame21x

Well, I offered an eBay seller $17 for a pair of RCA BlackPlates and they accepted. The seller is nearby so I should receive them soon. Looking forward to testing them in my Bravo.


----------



## justhandguns

Can anyone identify this for me? I don't know whether it is a fake or an odd model. Thanks!


----------



## Ultrainferno

Any tube produced in the Telefunken factory should have a "diamond" molded into the glass in the base of the tube inside the circle of pins.  If you don't see this diamond,  then the tube wasn't produced by Telefunken. Fakes have very nice writing and the printing will not rub off with your fingers or water.  So if the tubes you see have really indelible printing, suspect that they are fakes.
   
  Pic is not clear enough to see to me on my laptop
   

   
  The 60100 code doesn't ring a bell. normally its letters and numbers for the date codes, no idea about that


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Cripes - I've been outbid three times - I guess there's no way to get the awesome deals y'all got anymore - the word must be out on this amp.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Any tube produced in the Telefunken factory should have a "diamond" molded into the glass in the base of the tube inside the circle of pins.  If you don't see this diamond,  then the tube wasn't produced by Telefunken. Fakes have very nice writing and the printing will not rub off with your fingers or water.  So if the tubes you see have really indelible printing, suspect that they are fakes.
> 
> Pic is not clear enough to see to me on my laptop
> 
> ...


 

 That Ultrainferno has apparently been reading and reading and reading! The only thing I could possibly add is it could be from the former East Germany or from a little farther east... The question is, though, "How does it sound?"


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> Cripes - I've been outbid three times - I guess there's no way to get the awesome deals y'all got anymore - the word must be out on this amp.


 


  Look for auctions ending mid-week and be patient. Don't bid *until the last 10-15 secs* and bid the max you'll pay. Try Gixen to snipe on auctions you can't cover in person. Oh, and I'd try to snipe a Indeed G2 over a Bravo V2. It is a better amp for a bit more green.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I have been reading a lot about tubes yes, well mostly only about the ECC82 and equivalents but you were the one that got me going.
  I still owe you a beer for that, remember? I suggest we go to the Octoberfest 2011. Headfi meet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  What i've read is that the fake Telefunken sound horrible, but I can't tell if this is a fake or not
  I've stopped buying 12AU7 tubes as I'm not using that amp anymore...


----------



## justhandguns

I shall test it out tonight and see how it sounds compared to my other tubes. It maybe interesting.
   
  I suspect that it is not a fake but made in the eastern part of Germany. I don't think anyone would put a fake tube in that kind of old junks anyway.


----------



## Ultrainferno

What old junk was it in?


----------



## zest

Quote: 





justhandguns said:


> I shall test it out tonight and see how it sounds compared to my other tubes. It maybe interesting.
> 
> I suspect that it is not a fake but made in the eastern part of Germany. I don't think anyone would put a fake tube in that kind of old junks anyway.


 

 Telefunken tubes from east Germany have no "diamond" mark between the pins and I've read they don't sound great.


----------



## justhandguns

Just placed it into my Bravo V2, set the bias at 12.8V on each channel. Actually it does not sound bad at all. Background is low, high sounds on par with my other Sylvania grey. Possible the sound stage is not as wide as the Siemens and the Sylvania, but all sounds pretty good to me. I really need to try it out later on this weekend, I am so bloody tired today......


----------



## Ultrainferno

How do you set the bias on a V2??


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> How do you set the bias on a V2??


 

 Oh, I've actually done some of the mods, so the 3k resistors are now replaced with 5k trim pots.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Cool! Pictures!


----------



## swbf2cheater

so nobody knows where to get a power supply for them?


----------



## autonomous

"How do you set the bias on a V2??" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Very carefully!
   
  Wernher von Braun


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Before I actually do go all out to win an auction on one of these - how good do my headphones have to be to tell a difference?  Right now I have some decent Audio Technica earbuds, but they're no IEMs by a long shot.  I also have a pair of Shure SRH240s, which I gather are quite disrespected on this board.  Am I wasting my money?


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Well, I actually won. Gonna end up $72 with shipping. It's the Indeed G2 (gen 2?) with a 12AXU7.


----------



## real128

I suspect you will be able to tell a difference with almost anything, but if you don't, then you know to upgrade.  One striking difference would be in the bass response of full size cans.


----------



## SuperF

Hey all..first post.
   
  Just wondering a few things before I go and pull the trigger. 
   
  I read through most of this thread and got some great info. I was just wondering. Does this amp give the "thump" through the headphones on power on/warm up (rush in i think its called). Im looking to stick this between my PC and Sennhieser HD 448's and hope to just leave it plugged in as I use my headphones exclusively for music/gaming. I could always research and build a delay circuit if it doesnt have any sort of thing built in.
   
  I was looking at the bravo audio ebay auctions but they seem to end near 70 canadian bucks after shipping and then I saw this clone for 50 after shipping "buy it now" but it uses a 6n11 tube ( like the Bravo V1 correct?). From what I understand these tubes sound tend to cost a bit more but sound better then the 12au7? Maybe I got my wires crossed on that one. Reading and trying to absorb alot.
   
  This is my first foray into head amp territory. I just recently went from cheap sony headphones to my Senn's so my eye's (or ears?) have been opened. I dont have thousands of dollars to throw at this adventure but Im sure even a couple hundred and a bit of research can produce much better results then crappy onboard sound and a crappy pair of headphones (what im normally use to).
   
  Ill probably start tinkering with this, then build a cmoy then try my hand at building my own tube amp.
   
  Gathered alot of great info from this site already to begin the adventure.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Mine doesn't thump.
  It does take about thirty seconds to warm up
  and produce sound.
   
  Oh ya, Welcome to Head-Fi and sorry about your wallet...
   
  Tinker with this amps a bit and you will have an amp that
  sounds waaayyy better than any CMoy could hope to.
  But a CMoy is a great place to start to learn to build
  you own amp.
   
  That amp you indicated in your post is the same as a Bravo V1 and
  uses poor quality parts compared to later Bravo and Indeed amps.
  
  Quote: 





superf said:


> Hey all..first post.
> 
> Just wondering a few things before I go and pull the trigger.
> 
> ...


----------



## SuperF

Hey toronto. Ajax here. Thanks for the welcome. And the info provided.
   
  Heh oh well the auction is over anyway. Guess there is always a chance to catch the Bravo cheap.


----------



## Joe Presto

Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> so nobody knows where to get a power supply for them?


 




  Quote: 





superf said:


> Hey all..first post.
> 
> Just wondering a few things before I go and pull the trigger.
> 
> ...


 

 Hey swbf2cheater, if you follow the link in SuperFs post, you will see the Muse clone. These are sold without a powersupply, which can be included for an additional 9.99, perhaps you can check with that seller to see if the specs are right and order there?


----------



## Ultrainferno

And remember: if crap goes into an amp, enhanced crap comes out


----------



## swbf2cheater

Thanks Joe, I appreciate that!
   
  but what I really need is a snapshot of the back end psu input of one of these, to see if some of my other cables and adapters would fit it...meh, i guess i should just ask that seller if the psu for them is universal or different for each model


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> Thanks Joe, I appreciate that!
> 
> but what I really need is a snapshot of the back end psu input of one of these, to see if some of my other cables and adapters would fit it...meh, i guess i should just ask that seller if the psu for them is universal or different for each model


 

 You actually need to measure the jacks. My V2 PS jack is just a smidge smaller than my G2 PS jack. You can't tell the difference by eyeballing them, either. It's like 1.8mm v.2.0mm... tiny.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> And remember: if crap goes into an amp, enhanced crap comes out


 


  What my drinking buddy says is truly enhanced on these little amps. Especially the Bravo, as it is already noisy due to cut-rate resistors.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> Well, I actually won. Gonna end up $72 with shipping. It's the Indeed G2 (gen 2?) with a 12AXU7.


 

 That's pretty good for a G2! Start looking for 12au7 RCA clear tops, and 6dj8/6922 Amperex PQ... You should be very impressed.


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Thanks Judge. I'm getting pretty excited, despite my fiancee mocking me. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get her to hear the difference-she aspired once to be a professional singer, so I know she has the ear.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> Thanks Judge. I'm getting pretty excited, despite my fiancee mocking me. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get her to hear the difference-she aspired once to be a professional singer, so I know she has the ear.


 


  Get used to the comments from the better-half... My Mrs. of 22 years calls them my "little projects," my "little headphones," my "little coins." etc. My latest hobby foray is an aquarium, so now I get to hear, "You paid *what *for those little fish (little plants, little lights)?"
   
  My son is a Tech Sgt and a Raven. PM me your details.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> Thanks Judge. I'm getting pretty excited, despite my fiancee mocking me. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get her to hear the difference-she aspired once to be a professional singer, so I know she has the ear.


 


  The only thing my girlfriend said when I let her listen to her fav artist was: "Oh these earpads feel soft"
  She's ok with me spending money on audio, as long as it's mine


----------



## AirForceTeacher

My Ex figured out that I have a "process" - first I hear about a hobby and get interested, then I start buying magazines, then I go to stores, then I buy my first, cheap entry into the hobby, then I get the good stuff.  My fiancee has unfortunately been talkin' to her and now watches for it, including all the forums I belong to for my "rotating hobby syndrome."
   
  Whatever - better than wasting my time on reality TV.
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Get used to the comments from the better-half... My Mrs. of 22 years calls them my "little projects," my "little headphones," my "little coins." etc. My latest hobby foray is an aquarium, so now I get to hear, "You paid *what *for those little fish (little plants, little lights)?"
> 
> My son is a Tech Sgt and a Raven. PM me your details.


----------



## swbf2cheater

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> You actually need to measure the jacks. My V2 PS jack is just a smidge smaller than my G2 PS jack. You can't tell the difference by eyeballing them, either. It's like 1.8mm v.2.0mm... tiny.


 
  I agree, but I have a crap load of different psu's and I had hoped one of them would fit


----------



## SuperF

LOL pretty much the exact procedure i use. The wife caught on long ago but she knows i have an itch to try everything once and learning the basics of new things is somewhat of a hobby.
   
  I went ahead and grabbed the MUSE version of this amp - 50 bucks shipped cant go wrong. I'll probably tinker quite a bit with it so tube/cap/resistor upgrades are gonna be in the works. thetubestore.com is within driving distance (if they allow pickup) and Ive already started looking through ebay....my wallet...oh noz.
   
  It will be nice to have the amp to drive my Sennheisers. My PC is lacking in the power department. 
   
  I read a few people complain that the amp was too much for thier low ohms headphones and the suggestion was to use a higher resistance volume pot so the volume wasnt soft at 7 oclock and earsplitting at 8. Are these pots the same pin out. Would they fit the current board layout if I went with the same pot (alps)?
  
  Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> My Ex figured out that I have a "process" - first I hear about a hobby and get interested, then I start buying magazines, then I go to stores, then I buy my first, cheap entry into the hobby, then I get the good stuff.  My fiancee has unfortunately been talkin' to her and now watches for it, including all the forums I belong to for my "rotating hobby syndrome."
> 
> Whatever - better than wasting my time on reality TV.


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





superf said:


> ..........................................
> I read a few people complain that the amp was too much for thier low ohms headphones and the suggestion was to use a higher resistance volume pot so the volume wasnt soft at 7 oclock and earsplitting at 8. Are these pots the same pin out. Would they fit the current board layout if I went with the same pot (alps)?


 

 Well, I don't have problem with my IEMs with say, 16-32ohm. The gain is actually very high for the Bravo, probably less for the Indeed and MUSE, but I don't think it is that bad. If you are using the output from a PC, probably just lower the volumn from you windows instead.


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Ok - estimated delivery 22 Nov - 6 Dec - I hate waiting!!!


----------



## lazybum

After using my bravo for a bit more than a month, here are my impressions.
   
  My Bravo V2 is currently un-modded. I will attempt to mod it after my exams 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  The headphones that i used were AD700, M50, dba-02
  Yeah i know none of them needs amping 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But anyway...
   
  Build quality seems acceptable enough. I expected it to be worse but it looks well made enough to last a quite while as long as I don't fiddle around with it too much. I don't like the power supply adapter (or the jack, wherever the fault lies) though. It doesn't connect well with the amp and loses connection easily if I attempt to shift the adapter. And sudden power cut offs are bad for headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  With the stock tubes, the sound has some emphasis on the upper mids, making it slightly harsh sounding. There is also some roll off in the highs, but apparently it will go away when the stock mosfet is replaced. Will find out after my exams 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The stock tubes also seem to have a slightly grainy mids. On the plus side, soundstage is definitely wider and dynamics are better, especially at lower volumes. Without amping the sound from the ad700s feel like they are coming from the headphones, but when amped with the bravo the soundstage is more expansive you get the feeling that the sound is all around you instead of coming from the headphones.The slightly wooly bass on the ad700 and m50 (especially the ad700) also tightened up a bit and hits with harder impact with the bravo.
   
  With an RCA grey plates that I got off ebay, the harshness in the upper mids is reduced and so is the grain in the mids. Not sure if the highs are less rolled off and can't really comment on how changing the tubes affected the soundstage and dynamics though. But the removal of the harshness and grain is good enough. Perhaps it can sound better with proper tube biasing, as its currently biased at 11v/10v. Again that will be something that I will find out after I had tried modding it.
   
  Volume on these are more than sufficient. I can't go past 9 oclock with the headphones that I have without killing my ears, so i imagine it will be able to drive most headphones comfortably.
   
  You can forget about using them with most IEMs though. There is noticeable hiss and the stock psu is pretty noisy.
   
  These amps also pick up interference VERY easily. You can't put you handphones anywhere near them.
   
  This is my first amp actually so I can't really do comparisons. But i like how my cans are benefiting from greater soundstage and dynamics, even though they supposedly don't need an amp.


----------



## SuperF

Nice writeup Lazy.
   
  Thanks for the info justhandguns.
   
  I just got the item shipped email with tracking. Cant wait.
   
  Currently from PC to headphones will be PC sound card 3.5mm jacks > Logitech x540 speakers headphone out > Muse tube amp > Senn HD448's. Im just wondering if this is ideal. I kinda been toying with the idea of a optical to RCA DAC so it would go PC soundcard optical out > DAC RCA out > Muse tube amp > HD448.This would eliminate one volume control out of 3 in the chain, as well as move cabling behind my PC instead of across my desk (from the x540 volume module to the MUSE). What about sound quality though? Improved? I have no clue. Any thoughts?
   
  EDIT: Seems after some digging win7 doesnt support SPDIF and analog out at the same time so the above doesnt matter I guess.
   
  This was the DAC i was looking at...nothing special...im budget Fi. http://cgi.ebay.com/MINI-DAC-DIR9001-PCM1793-OPA2134-24BIT-192KHz-/280515999652?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41500e77a4#ht_6405wt_934


----------



## swbf2cheater

the seller said it requires a 24V 1A power supply


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I have that DAC. It doesn't sound too bad if you put a better op amp in it.
  I built mine from a kit...
  
  Quote: 





superf said:


> Nice writeup Lazy.
> 
> Thanks for the info justhandguns.
> 
> ...


----------



## zest

I'm still using the default OPA2134 with mine, I think I will try the more detailed LM4562.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I've got AD8599 in mine right now but so far I think LT1364 sounded best.
  But we digress...
   
   
  Quote: 





zest said:


> I'm still using the default OPA2134 with mine, I think I will try the more detailed LM4562.


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Hey guys, i hate to double post but it seems my post was completly ignored the first time, just looking for some help xD. 
   
  My amp keeps making this ZZZZFP noise every few seconds. 
  i know its not the source or some weird problem with my headphones.
   
  Any ideas guys? 
   
  Thanks for your help!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

What troubleshooting have you done so far?
  Have you tried a different tube?
  Does the noise occur completely at random or
  is there some pattern to it? Is the noise loud?
  Does it vary with volume?
   
  Quote: 





baudlydamage said:


> Hey guys, i hate to double post but it seems my post was completly ignored the first time, just looking for some help xD.
> 
> My amp keeps making this ZZZZFP noise every few seconds.
> i know its not the source or some weird problem with my headphones.
> ...


----------



## geetarman49

my first thought would be iffy tube --- have u tried a replacement yet?
  if not tube, then i would look closely at the solder joints for defect or cold solder; alternatively a leaky/defective capacitor.
  if not those, then i would have someone check out the power supply (this seems unlikely tho).
   
   
  hth,


----------



## QuantumCarrot

I've got a V3 and have the same issue from time to time. All I have to do to fix it is poke the base of the potentiometers (where the leads enter the PCB) with something metal. On mine it's usually the right pot that fixes it. Not really sure about the nature of the issue. My guess is static but I could be wrong.


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Ive only got one tube, doesnt vary based on volume. 
   
  @quantum carrot
   
  sorry, i don't quite understand. what part are u poking at with metal xD?


----------



## QuantumCarrot

I don't know which model you've got, but some of them have two yellow screw-looking things right in front of the tube socket. Those are the potentiometers. Some models just have resistors instead of pots though so they might not even be present.


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Mine is the V3


----------



## QuantumCarrot

When I get back home tonight I'll take pics of what I mean.


----------



## Cya|\|

Hey guys, i finall need to buy a second amp. I have a lehman black cube linear. Do you think it´s a good idea to spend money on one of these cheap tube amps? I´ll mostly use it on christmas, when i won´t be able to use the black cube linear, so i don´t want to spend much. But do you think i´d really enjoy it´s tube sound? I´m mostly undecided whether to choose a cheap fiio 5 or one of these tube amps.
  If you suggest to go tube amps, are the hi fi labs still the best out there? Or should i get a more expensive tube amp (like other cheap ones, but that are much better than these)?


----------



## QuantumCarrot

I had a Fiio E5 and it's really not much use for anything other than IEMS or undemanding phones that do acceptably unamped. I personally think these Bravos and Indeeds are a great deal if you've got cans that can take advantage of the power, soundstage, and tone they can deliver. Even with cheap tubes it's an agreeable sound. I use an old RCA-branded Mullard that I got a pair of for around $8 shipped. It's always nice being able to swap tubes and get different sounds. If you want to kinda set foot in tube amps I think it would be better to give one of these a try and see if you like it before investing in a big fancy monster. Even if you don't like it you can probably recoup most of the cost selling it here on HF.
   
   
  Baudly, here's where I poke around:

   
  I picked up a multimeter this weekend so the next time I have the issue I'll see if I can use that to get a better idea of exactly what's going on when it hisses. I'd be interested to know if this solution works for you too.


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Got my ship notice!


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Hey guys, i finall need to buy a second amp. I have a lehman black cube linear. Do you think it´s a good idea to spend money on one of these cheap tube amps? I´ll mostly use it on christmas, when i won´t be able to use the black cube linear, so i don´t want to spend much. But do you think i´d really enjoy it´s tube sound? I´m mostly undecided whether to choose a cheap fiio 5 or one of these tube amps.
> If you suggest to go tube amps, are the hi fi labs still the best out there? Or should i get a more expensive tube amp (like other cheap ones, but that are much better than these)?


 

 I think the first think you will notice when you get these Class A hybrid tube amps is the power they can pump out. Even if you have the power hungry 600ohm cans, these amps can still push them to some unbearable decibels.
 The Bravos have roll off at the high end due to the MOSFET, so they give a warmer sound in stock form. And I must say the background hiss is also the thing that come with the so-called tube sound as well. But it can be reduced using some low noise tubes and some quality upgrade components.


----------



## Cya|\|

Thank you guys for the inputs. I think i´m going to get the dale version of the hifilab with eh6222.
   
  Edit: what´s the best bias level for the hifilab eh6922 version?


----------



## geetarman49

Cya:  i gather u are referring to ebay seller  indeed-hi-fi-lab.  w/o specific link it is difficult to determine exactly which model u have your sights on since there are at least 3 variants using the eh 6922, but most would agree that the G2 variant rather than the Mk2 is the best sounding unit.  personally, i would try to snag one on auction as opposed to the buy it now price.  there's one closing soon:
  http://cgi.ebay.com/New-G2-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-12AU7-Class-Pre-Amp-/290496929575?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a2f75f27
   
  i'd wait till the last possible minute & make a decent bid... then look for some used rca conn 12au7 cleartops for dirt cheap; and if u still prefer the 6922, then this G2 can accommodate those tubes with a flick of the switch.
   
  hth,
   
  <edit 1>  these units are supposed to be shipped pre-biased for the tube supplied; mine was.  btw, imo the eh 6922 is nothing special --- easily beaten out by old stock rca conn cleartop that i mentioned above.
  <edit 2> specific details about biasing can be found on that site on the other side of the pond .. near the grotto...by the rock...


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> Cya:  i gather u are referring to ebay seller  indeed-hi-fi-lab.  w/o specific link it is difficult to determine exactly which model u have your sights on since there are at least 3 variants using the eh 6922, but most would agree that the G2 variant rather than the Mk2 is the best sounding unit.  personally, i would try to snag one on auction as opposed to the buy it now price.  there's one closing soon:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/New-G2-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-12AU7-Class-Pre-Amp-/290496929575?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a2f75f27
> 
> i'd wait till the last possible minute & make a decent bid... then look for some used rca conn 12au7 cleartops for dirt cheap; and if u still prefer the 6922, then this G2 can accommodate those tubes with a flick of the switch.
> ...


 

 Yes i´m looking at the g2 version (non golden pins).
  What sound tonality does the rca 12au7 have? How does it better the eh6922?
  That would be indeed cheaper.


----------



## geetarman49

it has been remarked by others that the eh 6922 sounds 'rubbery' for lack of a better descriptor. i have to concur. it's not just in the bass region; it affects most of the midrange spectrum as well.  rca cleartop 12au7 sound transparent, detailed w/o harshness with good fullness in lower end and punch to boot.  i got mine (rca conn) for roughly $6 each shipped. these were organ pulls that measured almost new. if i was living in the u.s. these would have cost me ~ $3 each. a great bargain. it's been rumored that the rca black plates may be even better and also available for decent price.
   
  ignore the others and buy the g2 at the cheapest price u can & then look to pick up some bargain tubes on the 'bay (but buy diligently).  if i had followed my own advice i would have saved >> $100.
   
  hth,
   
  <edit:  if u can't snatch the auction above ..wait a while ... no need to rush & pay outlandish price for this; the market is still soft and another will show up for auction sooner or later>


----------



## zest

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> <edit 1>  these units are supposed to be shipped pre-biased for the tube supplied; mine was.  btw, imo the eh 6922 is nothing special --- easily beaten out by old stock rca conn cleartop that i mentioned above.


 
  I don't think chinese 12AU7 tube sold with the amp is better than 6922EH, you can replace the russian tube by something with good sound quality as you do with 12AU7.
   
  edit:The bias is not set precisely by the manufacturer, and you have to adjust it each time you change the tube.


----------



## AirForceTeacher

If you get one of the newer models with resistors instead of pots, how do you adjust bias?


----------



## Ultrainferno

change the resistors?


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> If you get one of the newer models with resistors instead of pots, how do you adjust bias?


 


  What model is that? Can you link please?


----------



## AirForceTeacher

I can't get to eBay from here, but it seems like the one currently enroute to me has resistors, not pots.  Hopefully I'm wrong. Its the Indeed G2.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

The version with pots uses Cathode Bias.
  The version with resistors uses Grid Leak Bias.
   
  Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> If you get one of the newer models with resistors instead of pots, how do you adjust bias?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> I can't get to eBay from here, but it seems like the one currently enroute to me has resistors, not pots.  Hopefully I'm wrong. Its the Indeed G2.


 
  Indeed G2s have trim pots... You may want to swap them out for better trim pots, but they are there. Bravo V2s are grid biased.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> change the resistors?


 


 I said so, no?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

The voltage at the anode of the tube should be .65 to .7 of the power supply voltage.
  Adjust your bias accordingly. This should be your starting point. You can fiddle with
  your bias after that to see if there is a point that sounds better.
  
  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I said so, no?


----------



## pocketrocket

I received one 12AU7 RCA Black Plate D Getter that says Admiral on the side, and one ECC82 Valvo tube with it. I'm yet to settle down and do any tube rolling since I got the FiiO E7 too and I've been fiddling with it. That and I've been busy seeing if burning in my girlfriend's new Sony XB-500 would do anything to them (after 3 days it seems like it actually does, interesting!). I'm going to buy a A3 sized piece of steel mesh in hopes of doing a decent looking chassis for the Indeed G2. Really looking forward to getting it together.

 Also, we briefly mentioned taking off the LED and replacing it with some sort of a resistor. my father said that it should be replaced with a diode instead. Now I know nothing about electronics so could anyone tell me quite precisely what should I replace the LED with? I can solder, but I haven't done it in a while so the theory escapes me.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Which LED do you mean, the red one or the blue one?
  The Blue LED is just cosmetic and can be removed but
  remember to jumper over where it was. The red one is
  part of the CCS for the tube and should not be changed.
  You can move the red LED to another location but you
  must maintain its connection. The only option is to replace
  the red LED with a Zener diode. Measure the voltage drop
  across the LED and get a Zener diode of the same value.


----------



## pocketrocket

Much appreciated, someone told me the blue LED should not be changed without replacing it with a diode either, but that sounds easy enough for me, I think I can solder a tiny part of wire to it's place. I've been going through some neat designs, mostly concentrating around wrapping the whole amp into a box of perforated copper or black glossy steel, maybe with a solid front plate to give it some class..


----------



## sharkz

Ok, I have had my Indeed for a week now and really like it. I got it upgraded from the stock 6N11 tubes to Jan Sylvania 7308 tubes. I am looking to roll some more tubes and would like to try something "different" than the 7308. I am assuming many people consider this a lush and warm tube? What can get me to the other end of the spectrum (more detailed)?
   
  I have read through this whole thread and the Indeed thread as well, but it is a complete overload of information between recommendations, different types of tubes, then the different brands. Any thoughts are appreciated.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> Ok, I have had my Indeed for a week now and really like it. I got it upgraded from the stock 6N11 tubes to Jan Sylvania 7308 tubes. I am looking to roll some more tubes and would like to try something "different" than the 7308. I am assuming many people consider this a lush and warm tube? What can get me to the other end of the spectrum (more detailed)?
> 
> I have read through this whole thread and the Indeed thread as well, but it is a complete overload of information between recommendations, different types of tubes, then the different brands. Any thoughts are appreciated.


 

 Siemens or Telefunken E88cc are generally quite detailed... and expensive. Siemen's E88CCs can sometimes be found under an RCA label as "made in W.Germany" (late 60's /early 70's). Look for a 70s or early 80s 6n23p-ev that is well balanced: awesome tubes. Just experiment... I personally love Amperex tubes from the 60's and 70's. It's been my experience that the 6dj8 family is more detailed (generally) than 12au7s, but ymmv...
   
  Sometimes, the best enjoyment of tube rolling is just the "OMG factor" of hearing a 40 year old tube for the first time after you get it biased optimally... Don't be afraid to tweak the bias til it "sounds good" to you, even though the bias should be initially set without an audio signal.
   
  If you roll _without heightened expectations_, you may like the experience more... It's like going to big hyped movie, expecting the best movie ever and being disappointed when it doesn't measure up to those expectations. Don't roll with expectations that a tube will sound a particular way. Roll with the foundation of, "I wonder *how *this will sound." This basis will assist you in being objective, too. Enjoy...


----------



## zest

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> Ok, I have had my Indeed for a week now and really like it. I got it upgraded from the stock 6N11 tubes to Jan Sylvania 7308 tubes. I am looking to roll some more tubes and would like to try something "different" than the 7308. I am assuming many people consider this a lush and warm tube? What can get me to the other end of the spectrum (more detailed)?
> 
> I have read through this whole thread and the Indeed thread as well, but it is a complete overload of information between recommendations, different types of tubes, then the different brands. Any thoughts are appreciated.


 
  After using the default russian 6922 Electro Harmonics, I tried an RTC (la RadioTechnique) E88CC, it was a good improvement, but highs were too sparkling for my taste, and the last one is the same as your 7308, a new in box RTC E188CC, these tubes were made for audio and TV, they're low noise, low microphonics and long life (~10 000 hours). It has good details, I like it although it sounds smooth sometimes, mine is from the 70's, but I read the best for musicality were made in the 60's.


----------



## sharkz

Thanks for the advice. I do need to try some stuff I guess. I just don't want to blow $20 on a tube that doesn't fit, sounds terrible, or sounds the same as what I have. It is confusing though until you are used to things because there are so many families, brands, and other varaiations of tubes. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what actually fits.
   
  As far as I can tell, everything that works in the Bravo works in the Indeed? Is this correc?. Could I replace the 6N11 or 7308 I have with a 12AU7? Or any other family mentioned in this thread or the Indeed thread?


----------



## rmappita

I just bought my Bravo with the Russian EH 6922 Tube! Now Lets wait 20-25 days to it get down here in Brazil!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

The 6922 has a six volt heat and the 12au7 has a twelve volt heater.
  The two types are not compatible.


----------



## zest

Indeed G2 has a switch for 6 or 12V tubes.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Well, in the Indeed G2's case, swap away!


----------



## sharkz

I have an original so that doesn't apply to me. That is one of the reasons I want to make sure I know everything I can know about tubes before I buy anything. It is a nice feature though.


----------



## zest

If I was looking for 12AU7 tubes, I'd try to find some Telefunken, Amperex, Mullard especially ECC802 which is premium version like E188CC is for E88CC/6922, but they're rare and often expensive.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





zest said:


> Indeed G2 has a switch for 6 or 12V tubes.


 


  As I've said several times in this thread, if you want to roll tubes, you want a G2. I can listen to a 1950's RCA black plate 12au7 then switch to a Mullard E188CC in seconds. If you do the "bias lead mod" that I got from the Rock Grotto Forum Folks (shown in my pics), setting the bias is easy.
   
  sharkz, if your amp is an _original _Indeed (Gen 1), you can only use 6dj8 family (or comparable) tubes. This still gives you a lot of tube choices, though, and there is a picture tutorial somewhere in either the Indeed thread or this one that shows where to put your MM probes to set the bias on that model.


----------



## aroldan

I'm sorry for the lame question but does anyone has a step-by-step tutorial to adjust the bias of the Bravo V2?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## sharkz

Yeah I have a G1. I know how to adjust the bias, I have just been trying to make sure I know which tube family fits. Knowing for sure it is the 6dj8 family helps me a ton, thanks Judge.


----------



## Ultrainferno

@Aroldan: Our friends at the other forum have topic for that


----------



## aroldan

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> @Aroldan: Our friends at the other forum have topic for that


 


  Wow, I didn't know the Rock Grotto forums, thank you very much!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





aroldan said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah, those Rock Grotto folks have thoroughly digested these amps and aren't bashful about showing you how to mod them. I haven't been there in a while, myself... I may need to spend the weekend checking them out. In between football games that is.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> Yeah I have a G1. I know how to adjust the bias, I have just been trying to make sure I know which tube family fits. Knowing for sure it is the 6dj8 family helps me a ton, thanks Judge.


 

 One of the absolute best tubes for very little money is a 6n23p. The ev ones are generally even better, but you pay for the quality increase. The last 6n23p tubes I bought (on the Bay) were less than $4 USD each and they were 60s-70s. The last ev designation I got from the 70s was <$20. Once again, look for balanced emissions. This is certainly one of the best bang for the buck items out there and they pair really well with the Gen1. Some tubes have great synergy with the Gen1 and this is one of them.
   
  They are even better on the G2. There is a member at Rock Grotto that was extolling the virtues of of the 6n23p on the G2 and I had to try it. Excellent balanced tube...


----------



## zest

Since I met a radio amateur owner of more than 3500 tubes, he gave me the E188CC, I will ask him for good 6n23p.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Can you introduce me to him too...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





zest said:


> Since I met a radio amateur owner of more than 3500 tubes, he gave me the E188CC, I will ask him for good 6n23p.


----------



## sharkz

I need to look into the tube families mentioned. Just want something with a more detailed sound than my Jan Sylvania's. Would be interesting to try something with a different sound. There's lots of good tubes on the bay, problem is I really don't need more than one, which limits my choices severely. Will have to keep my eyes peeled and see if I see anything good.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





zest said:


> Since I met a radio amateur owner of more than 3500 tubes, he gave me the E188CC, I will ask him for good 6n23p.


 


  I bet he doesn't use these Ruski tubes in his ham setup...


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Ack! I was at an antique store today that had like 20 boxed tubes, but I didnt have a list of acceptable tubes handy! $3 each!!! I didn't see any numbers I recognized.


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Of course - the day I'm out of town they try to deliver my amp - and it's not set for redelivery, I have to go to the post office!  Grr.  At least today's a half day!


----------



## AirForceTeacher

I got it!!  And now my SO is a believe - it took a Jay-Z / Sting remix, but now she wants a headphone amplifier.  (Shure 240s sounded worse than her Skull Candy earbuds before the amp, then she was like "WOW" about Sting's voice.)


----------



## satkinsn

Let me repeat advice from earlier in the thread - the power switch is dicey. If you're not going to hack it, better you should plug and unplug.
   
  s.


----------



## sepinho

I've recently plugged my AKG K340 into the Bravo v2 and it sounds way better than with my Little Dot II++.
  How can this be? Could the Bravo really deliver enough power to drive the K340?


----------



## AirForceTeacher

The G2 switch?  I teach computer security for the Air Force, but one of my fellow instructors used to teach electronics, so he's going to teach me to solder.  I plan to build a SSMH quite soon, but I should practice on the switch.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





sepinho said:


> I've recently plugged my AKG K340 into the Bravo v2 and it sounds way better than with my Little Dot II++.
> How can this be? Could the Bravo really deliver enough power to drive the K340?


 


  These little machines power anything


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





satkinsn said:


> Let me repeat advice from earlier in the thread - the power switch is dicey. If you're not going to hack it, better you should plug and unplug.
> 
> s.


 


  The Indeed G2 has a very good toggle switch. The Indeed G1 has a dicey push-button... as does the Bravo V2.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





sepinho said:


> I've recently plugged my AKG K340 into the Bravo v2 and it sounds way better than with my Little Dot II++.
> How can this be? Could the Bravo really deliver enough power to drive the K340?


 

 Beauty is in the ear of the beholder... For the money, these amps sound awesome. And they are powerful enough to drive 600 ohm cans... easily.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> The G2 switch?  I teach computer security for the Air Force, but one of my fellow instructors used to teach electronics, so he's going to teach me to solder.  I plan to build a SSMH quite soon, but I should practice on the switch.


 


  Don't practice on your G2... my $.02, AFTeacher. Get something like this to practice populating and desoldering.
   
  If it is working (and you LIKE it), and you don't have the skills to mod it, don't risk tearing it up by practicing on it. Practice on something you don't mind ruining. It's too easy to raise a pad if your mojo is a no-go. Just sayin'


----------



## sepinho

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I always assumed that OTL amps such as the LDII++ would be more powerful than hybrids like the Bravo. Guess I was wrong.
  I am using a GDR-made Funkwerk Erfurt tube in my Bravo btw, love its sound. I'm now tempted to get an ECC802 to compare.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> Can you introduce me to him too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'd like too, but it seems he has not so much audiophile tubes, he doesn't care about musicality after all.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Not these but he uses some from russian army, I've read some good reports on the military version of 6N23, it's 6N23-EV.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No problem with HD 580 300 ohms, and the potentiometer is at only 9-10 o'clock.


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Anyone lost the feet yet and had to replace them? I lost one of the little rubber donut feet.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

I don't think mine ever had feet...if it once did, it certainly doesn't now...
  You might be able to get some replacement feet at Radio Shack or
  your local electronics supplier. On-line retailers will surely have many
  to choose from as well.
   
  Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> Anyone lost the feet yet and had to replace them? I lost one of the little rubber donut feet.


----------



## zest

The "donuts" are in fact rubber grommets like these, sticked to the screw heads.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





zest said:


> The "donuts" are in fact rubber grommets like these, sticked to the screw heads.


 

 Yeah, google "rubber grommets" and look for them in smaller quantities than 100 at 12 pounds (~$19). McMaster's has them here, but you can probably find them at every electronics distributor. Heck, you may even find something compatible at the Crap Shak.


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Well, Indeed gets a gold star in my book. I emailed them to ask if they knew an American distributor of the feet, and he's sending one.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

See, it never hurts to ask...
  
  Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> Well, Indeed gets a gold star in my book. I emailed them to ask if they knew an American distributor of the feet, and he's sending one.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





airforceteacher said:


> Well, Indeed gets a gold star in my book. I emailed them to ask if they knew an American distributor of the feet, and he's sending one.


 

 You ARE going to post that distributor here, right?  Is it Digi-Key or Mouser?


----------



## AirForceTeacher

Neither - Indeed HiFi Lab (eBay seller.)  He ddin't give me a distributor name, but he sent another email today saying four feet were in the mail.


----------



## bboe

Has anyone seen the V3? How is it compared to the V2? I am really interested in these little tube amps. I am new to tube amps and have no idea what this tube rolling is, but can it be done on this V3? Do I have to mod it? Thanks!
  H
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/Bravo-Tube-Headphone-Amplifier-V3-EQ-Equalizer-valve-US_W0QQitemZ260677485333QQihZ016QQcategoryZ12050QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem'


----------



## Ultrainferno

The general consensus is to stay away from the V3 with the EQ, the sounquality shouldn't benefit from adding the EQ.
  I suggest you look at he V2 or the Indeed, both are good, the Indeed might be a bit better/mod friendly


----------



## QuantumCarrot

Everybody is always slamming the V3 yet nobody has one. I do and I haven't noticed any problems with the sound quality at all. The EQ is quite helpful for vintage cans with grating highs or recessed mids.


----------



## sharkz

I am new to the whole tube rolling thing. Got my E88CC Reflector tube from the Ukraine today, however my biasing didn't go well. Following the directions listed, I was able to bias my right channel to exactly 16.5 volts, however the left channel will only max out at 14.95 volts, even with the pot cranked as far as it will go.
   
  What does this mean, do I have a bad tube. Can I live with this or will this be degrading my sound significantly? Is there any way I can fix this? Thanks for the help.


----------



## zest

Maybe the tube is not nib (new in box) or nos (new old stock), and has been used during a long time, is weak, and its specifications are not good enough now.
  The Reflector E88CC is a 6n23p-ev, a good tube it seems, the problem with bias that are not equal is one channel could overflow the other, you could try to adjust both at 14.95 V and see how it sounds.


----------



## sharkz

The tube is supposed to be NOS and unused. It seems to sound fairly decent after about 5 or 6 hours of burning but I am sure it needs more. Still annoys me though that I can't get it biased correctly.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> The tube is supposed to be NOS and unused. It seems to sound fairly decent after about 5 or 6 hours of burning but I am sure it needs more. Still annoys me though that I can't get it biased correctly.


 
  Forgetaboutit... I have a great Bugle Boy that only biases out at a little over 11V on one side. It's not strong but it's sweet.
   
  Just make sure the output _sounds_ balanced to your ears. A tube that's sold as NOS doesn't mean the tube is perfect, just "unused." Even tubes that are "tested" are sometimes very unbalanced. Don't be harsh on yourself or the tube... Just listen to your music.
   
  According to the _measurements_, these amps are supposed to sound like crap, but they don't. Screw the numbers... how does it sound? Oh yeah, post a picture of your 6n23p-ev. There are recently made garbage tubes out there with bright blue and bright yellow markings. Some folks are painting the nipples on tubes and claiming that this signifies that the tubes are special.
   
  One last thing, the 6n23p-ev isn't an E88CC and won't ever be. That's a marketing scheme to imply that the tube is a high quality tube. The E88CC is a _European only_ designation that is only comparable to the American 6922 designation. Russian tubes (and Chinese) never followed these standards. If you are dealing with Russian or Chinese tubes, always check that the tube specifications closely correspond to what you really need in the circuit. The tube specs of the 6n23p (and ev) place it within the 6dj8 family specs and is therefore equivalent. But it isn't an E88CC any more than a Chinese 6n11J is.


----------



## sharkz

Thanks for the reply Judge.
   
  What is the usual procedure for biasing like that though. Does it make the most sense to bias both to the same level I guess then? That seems to be the most practical thing to do. The tube does sound good though. What is the usual time line for breaking in something like a tube. This one likely has 10-12 hours on it now. Should it start to sound even better after about twice this period of burning in?


----------



## Ultrainferno

A completely different question: What's the longest time you've had the Bravo/indeed run in 1 stretch?
  Would it hurt to keep it on from 8am to 5pm?
   
  I know, just turn it of if it gets too hot


----------



## sharkz

I've had mine on for 4-6 hours a night the past few nights trying to burn in my new tube/headphones and the heatsinks get hotish to the touch, but if you give it a several minute break every few hours, it cools to near ambient temperatures very quickly. Just for the sake of curiousity, if I have time later I will get a reading off the heat sink with my IR thermometer after several hours of play. Should be interesting to see a temperature at that point and how quickly it cools again.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> According to the _measurements_, these amps are supposed to sound like crap, but they don't. Screw the numbers... how does it sound? Oh yeah, post a picture of your 6n23p-ev. There are recently made garbage tubes out there with bright blue and bright yellow markings. Some folks are painting the nipples on tubes and claiming that this signifies that the tubes are special.
> 
> One last thing, the 6n23p-ev isn't an E88CC and won't ever be. That's a marketing scheme to imply that the tube is a high quality tube. The E88CC is a _European only_ designation that is only comparable to the American 6922 designation. Russian tubes (and Chinese) never followed these standards. If you are dealing with Russian or Chinese tubes, always check that the tube specifications closely correspond to what you really need in the circuit. The tube specs of the 6n23p (and ev) place it within the 6dj8 family specs and is therefore equivalent. But it isn't an E88CC any more than a Chinese 6n11J is.


 
  The best 6n23p-ev tubes are those that passed military tests, they are marked OTK like these:
   

   
  and manufactured in Voshkod factory, they seem to be a bit better than the Reflectors tubes.
   


   
  The specs of 6n23p-ev are close to E188CC, limited operating values are similar, e=long life (>5000hrs) and v=improved mechanics, I've read RCA sold some of them as 7308.


----------



## zest

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> A completely different question: What's the longest time you've had the Bravo/indeed run in 1 stretch?


 
  3 hours, I was reading a book, the heatsinks were pretty hot, but not more than after 30 mns of use.


----------



## QuantumCarrot

I've let mine run overnight a few times without problems.


----------



## jjmai

Why do these tubes glow blue?
  Is there a blue LED in there, or is it just the gas in the tube lighting up?
  But according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube, that's actually bad quality: "A tube with very bad internal gas may have a visible blue glow when plate voltage is applied."


----------



## Ultrainferno

It's just a blue LED under the tube


----------



## sharkz

I am pretty happy with my Reflector, it was $9 shipped. I need to rebias tonight so I am equal in both channels. I am sure it needs to burn in more too.
   
  I am just disappointed I can't switch tubes more easily (without rebiasing). I would really like to A/B my tubes but it is a lot of work and harder to do than just swapping back and forth. It is hard for me to get a clear picture of how different the two main tubes (Jan Sylvania and Relfector) without hearing them next to each other. I need to spend some time "critically" listening in the future to figure out the sonic differences. Plus right now, I think my Fostex's are still settling in too.


----------



## sharkz

Just for the sake of curiousity, after about 4 hours playing, my amp is running at ~170F at the heatsinks and ~140F at the exposed portion of the tube. I would imagine it will cool right down with no load being applied to it.
   
  Biased my tubes to exactly 15V each, now to do some more listening.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> A completely different question: What's the longest time you've had the Bravo/indeed run in 1 stretch?
> Would it hurt to keep it on from 8am to 5pm?
> 
> I know, just turn it of if it gets too hot


 

 A couple of days... Don't worry about it.
   

  


> and manufactured in Voshkod factory, they seem to be a bit better than the Reflectors tubes.
> 
> Rocket tubes rock! I have a 6n23p from 84 that is very nice! The best 6n23p that I have though is a 78 Reflektor ev. I also have a 69 Reflektor ev that isn't balanced.
> The tube in your photo is much newer than even the 84 that I have. This decade or the 1990s?
> ...


----------



## zest

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> The tube in your photo is much newer than even the 84 that I have. This decade or the 1990s?
> 
> I don't know, this seller don't mention the year.
> 
> ...


 
  The best offer I found is a Reflektor ev OTK tube from 1992, tested by the russian seller, for 15$+free shipping. The differences with E188CC/7308 are minimal from what I read, slightly less extended in lows and no golden pins, but I don't think this tube from 92 can compete with RTC E188CC from 79.


----------



## jjmai

Has anyone bought the amp from AmpPuzzles from ebay?  (They apparently have spammed some ads here and there before.)
  Their design is more similar to Indeed G2.  Wonder how reliable they are....


----------



## SuperF

So after sitting in customs for 3 weeks the Muse version (uses 6n11 tube) of this amp finally made it to my door and BAH DOA. Im using a 24v 1.5a adapter (hp laptop) blue led is good and the heater in the tube glows except the red LED does not light. There is an oscillating hum that doesnt get softer or louder with volume and if I crank it full blast I can here the music but not much. The heatsinks get hot as well which of course is normal. Just seems to be something with the red LED. I understand it acts as a resistor of sorts. Any thoughts. Gonna jump back in this thread and see if anyone else had similar issues.
   
  I do have a multimeter but im amateur at best when it comes to this stuff.
   
  I dont want to bother with the hassle of sending it back since it will probably be another 3 months before I see it again. Sucks but thats life on ebay i guess.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

The red LED is part of the circuit that biases the tube.
  A bad LED would definitely cause the amp to stop working.
  Check the voltage drop across the LED (measure the voltage
  by putting one lead on one side of the LED and the other lead
  on the other side of the LED with power on). It should be something
  like 1.8 volts. If it is 0 then the LED is shorted. If it's something like
  20 volts, then the LED is open. Being shorted is the most likely problem.
  Also check for bad solder joints on the underside. If possible, get a
  good, clear picture of the underside.
  The adapter you are using is fine.
  
  Quote: 





superf said:


> So after sitting in customs for 3 weeks the Muse version (uses 6n11 tube) of this amp finally made it to my door and BAH DOA. Im using a 24v 1.5a adapter (hp laptop) blue led is good and the heater in the tube glows except the red LED does not light. There is an oscillating hum that doesnt get softer or louder with volume and if I crank it full blast I can here the music but not much. The heatsinks get hot as well which of course is normal. Just seems to be something with the red LED. I understand it acts as a resistor of sorts. Any thoughts. Gonna jump back in this thread and see if anyone else had similar issues.
> 
> I do have a multimeter but im amateur at best when it comes to this stuff.
> 
> I dont want to bother with the hassle of sending it back since it will probably be another 3 months before I see it again. Sucks but thats life on ebay i guess.


----------



## SuperF

Great thanks for this I will check it this week. I checked for solder bridges or bad solder joints and all looks well. Ill still take a pic though when I have it apart.
   
  Love the name by the way. Great moments in canadian history.
   
  EDIT: Oh i can replace the LED with a resitor if its bad right. Anyone know what value of resitor im looking at?
  Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> The red LED is part of the circuit that biases the tube.
> A bad LED would definitely cause the amp to stop working.
> Check the voltage drop across the LED (measure the voltage
> by putting one lead on one side of the LED and the other lead
> ...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

You have to replace the LED with another LED of the same voltage drop.
  Anything else won't work.
   
  Edit:
  I measured mine and it's dropping 1.95 volts.


----------



## SuperF

Just measured mine and its 8.4v across the points. Think its the LED thats bad?
   
  I have herd of people replacing the LED with a resistor though...cuz they didnt like the red color or something.  I just want it to work.
   
  Thanks again for your help.
   
  EDIT: They installed the Red LED backwards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Once I replaced it (cuz i think it had blown) and installed the new one correctly and readjusted the pots she came to life. Im still getting some high pitched whine with little or no volume but that could be my growlights in my workshop (IE closet and i grow bonsai not the other stuff lol) or power supply im using. At least im moving forward.
   
  I measured 1.8ish across the new LED.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Sometimes a switching power supply will
  inject a high frequency whine if it's switching
  frequency is too low. Try a different power
  supply and see if that helps the noise problem.
   
  Get a linear power supply if you can.
  24 volts at 1 amp is enough, 2 amps
  would be better.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





superf said:


> EDIT: They installed the Red LED backwards
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  How did that board make it through QC without working?!? LOL


----------



## Avro_Arrow

What QC..?
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## jjmai

Can someone rank some of the DIY mods that can improve bravo's sound, in decreasing order of relevance?
  For example, tube rolling?  Or mods mentioned here: http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m&action=display&thread=5297
  Or adjust/add trim pods to adjust bias: http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=b&action=display&thread=5022
  I have a bravo v2 with stock chinese 12au7, with a few tubes on the way.  Suggestions welcome.


----------



## aroldan

Quote: 





jjmai said:


> Can someone rank some of the DIY mods that can improve bravo's sound, in decreasing order of relevance?
> For example, tube rolling?  Or mods mentioned here: http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m&action=display&thread=5297
> Or adjust/add trim pods to adjust bias: http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=b&action=display&thread=5022
> I have a bravo v2 with stock chinese 12au7, with a few tubes on the way.  Suggestions welcome.


 
   
  I have made some mods to my bravo v2 and this is my ranking in order of relevance:
   

 Crosstalk mod
 Tube rolling: Amperex Bugle Boy (Great bass response and impact) or RCA Clear Tops (Very fast, accurate upper mids)
 Adding 5k trim pots to adjust bias of those tubes. 
 Replacing mosfets from IRF630 to IRF510
   
   As the rockgrotto folks said, please be very careful when desoldering as the Bravo PCB is really cheap
   
  That's it!


----------



## rokhoe

Hi, I've just received my Bravo V2 and I'm having an annoying problem with the power supply. The led lights on the amp just keep flashing intermittently, if I turn it on after powering it off just a few moments before. I've measured the psu's voltage with a multimeter, which stays at a constant 24V. When the lights are flashing, I can measure the voltage fluctuating between 0-1,5V and I can hear a "popping" noise on my headphones. Do you think I'm getting problems due to the crappy power supply or is it due to a faulty amp component? I believe the power supply doesn't deliver the 24 volts when it is under load, so maybe my measurements don't show the real problem. I would be very glad If someone could help me find a solution.
   
  Thx in advance!


----------



## sharkz

I am looking into upgrading my Phono Preamp and came across lots of references to upgrading the power supply to really improve the sound. Right now my Indeed is using a laptop style adapter with a 2 amp output. I ran across references to this supply being great for the money:
   
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JTD2K/ref=oss_product
   
  I am wondering, would this be a suitable replacement for the stock laptop brick I am using. Also will there be a sonic benefit (clearer, lower floor noise)? I am likely going to upgrade for my Preamp anyway, but was curious if I could kill two birds with one stone with this guy.


----------



## Avro_Arrow

No, the voltage is wrong.
  You need a 24 volt supply.
  
  Quote: 





sharkz said:


> I am looking into upgrading my Phono Preamp and came across lots of references to upgrading the power supply to really improve the sound. Right now my Indeed is using a laptop style adapter with a 2 amp output. I ran across references to this supply being great for the money:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JTD2K/ref=oss_product
> 
> I am wondering, would this be a suitable replacement for the stock laptop brick I am using. Also will there be a sonic benefit (clearer, lower floor noise)? I am likely going to upgrade for my Preamp anyway, but was curious if I could kill two birds with one stone with this guy.


----------



## sharkz

Is there a cost effective 24v supply similar to what I listed that could help the sound quailty then. I notice a fair amount of floor noise with the amp. If I could quiet it down somewhat, it would definately help. Everything I have read says that increasing the quality of power supplies supplies noticeably better SQ. A quick search so far has netted no results.


----------



## real128

I'm not noticing a lot of noise on mine but the power supply stays on and hot even when the amp is off?


----------



## real128

I must have got lucky with the Muse, I don't think I could recommend it now the volume control (supposed to be high quality?) has become scratchy.  Otherwise no major issues.
  
  Quote: 





superf said:


> Just measured mine and its 8.4v across the points. Think its the LED thats bad?
> 
> I have herd of people replacing the LED with a resistor though...cuz they didnt like the red color or something.  I just want it to work.
> 
> ...


----------



## Avro_Arrow

The power switch on the amp does not control the power supply.
  Best idea is to use a power bar to turn everything on and off.
  
  Quote: 





real128 said:


> I'm not noticing a lot of noise on mine but the power supply stays on and hot even when the amp is off?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Can you build you own stuff from a kit?
  Actually, it not even a kit, just a board and plans...
  If you can, then this would be your best bet...
AMB Sigma 11
   
  If not, you can find someone that will build it for you.
  I'm not sure it would fit in your budget though... 

  Quote: 





sharkz said:


> Is there a cost effective 24v supply similar to what I listed that could help the sound quailty then. I notice a fair amount of floor noise with the amp. If I could quiet it down somewhat, it would definately help. Everything I have read says that increasing the quality of power supplies supplies noticeably better SQ. A quick search so far has netted no results.


----------



## sharkz

That's getting a little complex and likely isn't worth it for $60 amp. I just was wondering if there was something similar to the Pyramid, which apparently there isn't.


----------



## leeperry

sharkz said:


> Is there a cost effective 24v supply similar to what I listed that could help the sound quailty then. I notice a fair amount of floor noise with the amp. If I could quiet it down somewhat, it would definately help. Everything I have read says that increasing the quality of power supplies supplies noticeably better SQ. A quick search so far has netted no results.


 
   
  The crappy volume pot would prolly veil any improvement done to the PSU.


----------



## sharkz

I'm confused by comments about the volume pot. Does the volume pot have to do with the sound at all times or just when the volume is being changed? My volume pot sounds terrible when I am changing the volume (scratchy and cuts out a bit), but does it have to do with the overall sound of the amp even when it isn't being touched?


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> I'm confused by comments about the volume pot. Does the volume pot have to do with the sound at all times or just when the volume is being changed? My volume pot sounds terrible when I am changing the volume (scratchy and cuts out a bit), but does it have to do with the overall sound of the amp even when it isn't being touched?


 


  If it is bad, the sound will be degraded to a degree. What degree is anybody's guess.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> If it is bad, the sound will be degraded to a degree. What degree is anybody's guess.


 

 Now that I caught you: Merry Christmas Judge!!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Merry Christmas to You, Ultrainferno! And to all of you that celebrate Christmas!


----------



## leeperry

sharkz said:


> I'm confused by comments about the volume pot.


 

 crappy pots butcher the SQ: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/528261/


----------



## real128

SQ on mine hasn't degraded at all, I think just a little dust got in there somehow, or something like that.


----------



## abcray

Quote: 





justhandguns said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Vey nice job *justhandguns! **Pics just look nice. *

  I willing to tweak my Bravo V1 for better quality components. I began ordering a linear Solar PSU. I have some questions, though.

   

  1- Why did you choose IRL instead of IRF?

  2- Why 2x Nichcon FW 4700uF 35V, ins't one just enough? What about a good Richcon 10000 uF 25v isntead? Are there differences in SQ swapping it to 35v?

  3- Regarding to trimmers, why did you choose 5k instead of 2k ones? Was that  because of the 12AU7 tubes? Mine is the V1 model, any benefit for picking 5k?

  4- Some of us have replaced the 220R gate resistors for a 120R, do you think of any benefit for that?

  5- Are those bias caps placed on the top of the board next to the potentiometer? What are their specs?

  6- Since its hard to find WIMA caps, could I replace the stock ones for  3.3uF WIMA ?

  7- Could you send a list of all the Takman metal film resistors replaced? I'd better order them before unsolder the stock ones. 

  Thanks in advance.


----------



## abcray

...


----------



## abcray

Sorry for too many questions.


----------



## abcray

Hello, I'm new to this forum. I really have apreciated this thread once I got a Bravo V1 deluxe and I'm interested in having it modded. I have little experience in soldering but I'll start doing it so. Happy new year for everyone in this thread and congratulations for your posts.


----------



## Garage1217

I am gonna pick one of these babies up, I have several sylvania nos 12au7a's laying around to try and a sylvania 12au7. Also just found a GE 12au7a to try out. Looking at the G2 from indeed, they also are good to go with 12ax7's... hehehe I have a coveted RCA 5751 "12ax7a" I have been dying to listen to! as well as many other 12ax series tubes from raytheon and ge.... This will be a fun affordable venture for sure!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

If you want the "fully experience", go back here and start reading...
   
   
  Quote: 





abcray said:


> Hello, I'm new to this forum. I really have apreciated this thread once I got a Bravo V1 deluxe and I'm interested in having it modded. I have little experience in soldering but I'll start doing it so. Happy new year for everyone in this thread and congratulations for your posts.


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





abcray said:


> Vey nice job *justhandguns! **Pics just look nice. *
> I willing to tweak my Bravo V1 for better quality components. I began ordering a linear Solar PSU. I have some questions, though.
> 
> 1- Why did you choose IRL instead of IRF?
> ...


 

 Oh, sorry for the late reply, I was having a really long deserve X'mas break lately.
   
  Well, I went for IRL because of the articles that I read. Apparently with the V2, IRL FET has a better range and voltage?!
  I choose the 5K timmer to have the bias voltage set to around 13V after the mod wit hthe 12AU7 tubes. For the V1? I thought
  you aleady have the trimmer pot for setting bias? I really don't know if you replace the 220R resistor with a 120R one would
  do to the SQ, probably not much, so I would stick with the original spec, as it may damange the tube itself.
  The bias caps or the output caps? 
   
  Just bear with me for a couple of days, I will send you the list of resistors a bit later. Since I need to recapture my mine
  for work right now........ but I will definitely do it.


----------



## abcray

Hi, jushtanguns
   
  Yes, the V1 has the trimmer pots for setting bias, but I'll replace those for better quality ones.
  The bias caps are those soldered across the bias trim pot. 
  I'm also curious about the power caps, why 2x Nichcon FW 4700uF 35V instead of only one?
  Thanks for your attention.


----------



## abcray

Thanks for the tip.
  By the way, what are those bias cap specs soldered underneath the board?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

They are just some I had laying around.
  The specs are 680uF @ 10 volts Panasonic FC I think...
  I did have a link to some I recommended if you read
  through the old threads.
   
  I also have ELNA 1000uF @ 25 volt Silmic II
  for the output caps and a 10,000uF @ 25 volt
  Nichicon VR for the power supply.


----------



## -su

hi guys,
   
  sorry if the question has asked before,
  93+ pages surely take lots of time to read 
   
  Just a simple one,
  I just got an RCA Black Plate 12AU7, it is still under shipping process though,
  planned to use it on my Bravo V2 ( version without trimmer, bias is not yet tuned, difficult to find a good trimpot here  ).
   
  Based on anyone who have ever tried the RCAs on Bravo V2 here,
  do I have to change the bias voltage to accomodate the tube?
  Or is it just "plug-and-play-and-sound",
  with the bias tuning required only to get a better sound? 
   
  Thanks


----------



## jjmai

Quote: 





-su said:


> hi guys,
> 
> sorry if the question has asked before,
> 93+ pages surely take lots of time to read
> ...


 

 My guess is that each Bravo V2 and each tube will behave a little differently.  You use the trim pot to adjust the left and right channels' volumes separately, in order to compensate for the component variation/qualities on the Bravo board and tubes.  Some combination may just hit it right without needing any bias.  Correct me if I am wrong...


----------



## Ultrainferno

The standard V2 will "auto adjust" the bias for the tube, so it's plug and play for the std version
  Correct me if I'm wrong anyone


----------



## -su

Quote: 





jjmai said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Hi jjmai,
   
  thanks for your reply.
   
  Yes i am totally agree about the behavioral differences,
  but what I was actually pointing out in my previous question is,
  can Bravo V2 compensates the RCA black plate 12AU7 without any trimming? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 or in other words, can the Bravo V2 and RCA black plate 12AU7 combination hits it all right? 
   
  ===
  Anyway, FWIR, the trimpot adjustment is not really related directly to each channel's volume level,
  it is more about adjusting voltage being supplied to the tube (or other parts of circuitry, not really sure about the part 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).


  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> The standard V2 will "auto adjust" the bias for the tube, so it's plug and play for the std version
> Correct me if I'm wrong anyone


 

 thanks inferno, I hope I really don't have to readjust the bias...


----------



## Ultrainferno

Btw, I only use rca tubes in the V2, and I've never ever adjusted anything


----------



## Avro_Arrow

As I have mentioned before, the version of these amps with trim pots uses Cathode Bias and
  the version with no trimmers uses Grid Leak Bias. The Cathode Bias models should
  be adjusted for between 0.65 and 0.7 of the supply voltage at the anode of the tube.
  In the case of 24 volts supply, this wound be 16 to 17 volts as measured at the anode of the tube.
  The Grid Leak Bias version may appear to not need adjustment, but the grid leak resistor value
  should be calculated from the charts for the tube used. It would be interesting if someone with
  the Grid leak bias version would measure their anode voltage and see how close it is to
  the 0.65 to 0.7 range...


----------



## -su

Plugged in the '50s black plate,
  let it warms up for 10mins,
  wow it is totally a noticeable improvement, especially on music separation and details, as if someone has opened up a thin layer that was there before...
  IMHO the hi freq is also extended as I always felt there's some roll-off there before.
   
  For 30 bucks, I think this is really a worth upgrade.
  (well, yeah a stock china tube won't do any good anyway).


----------



## Bacci

How does bass & bass extension compare to your original chinese tube (6n11?) ?
I'm looking to roll tube as well and the 12at7 rca black plate is a prime candidate


----------



## -su

Quote: 





bacci said:


> How does bass & bass extension compare to your original chinese tube (6n11?) ?
> I'm looking to roll tube as well and the 12at7 rca black plate is a prime candidate


 


  I don't think there's a significant improvement over the low section, maybe just a bit tighten up.
  But well, FYI I'm using DT880/250 which known to be not having much bass itself
  and I don't have a gold analytical ear anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so YMMV
   
  But, I do think this tube makes the overall reproduced sound become much better refined.


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





abcray said:


> Hi, jushtanguns
> 
> Yes, the V1 has the trimmer pots for setting bias, but I'll replace those for better quality ones.
> The bias caps are those soldered across the bias trim pot.
> ...


 
   
  Hi, here is the list of resistors
   

 2 x (REY50-170) - 47R 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor   2 x (REY50-495) - 24K 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor   2 x (REY50-385) - 3K 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor   1 x (REY50-350) - 1K5 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor   2 x (REY50-330) - 1K 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor   2 x (REY50-190) - 68R 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor   2 x (REY50-080) - 8R2 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor
 
 2 x (REY50-250) - 220R 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor   2 x (REY50-385) - 3K 0.5W TAKMAN Metal Film Resistor  
   
  There may be a bit of extra ones which I used to played around with.

 And why I have  2x Nichcon FW 4700uF 35V? It just I want them to fit through the hole on the top plate.
  One through the hole and the other sits underneath.
   
  As for the bias in the V2, I think it is better if you have the trimmer to adjust the bias if you want to roll some tubes.
  I don't want to spend time explaining it, just search the forum and the net to find the answers.


----------



## Bacci

Quote: 





-su said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Okay thanks! I decided to pick up a 12at7 as well, went for RCA 6201 with wide black plates.
  As you said these are still affordable at 30 around bucks.


----------



## momostallion

just won a bravo v2.  now i get to play the waiting game.  at least i have 60 more pages to read on this thread to help decide what else to order!


----------



## abcray

Hi, jushtanguns
   
  Now I'm going to rebuild my Bravo and I'll post the pictures as soon as I have it finished. 
  Thanks a lot so far.


----------



## Garage1217

The picture of the bravo v2 has orange trim pots on the ebay auction???  I emailed the seller to confirm... Will be uber bummed if the one I get is cathode biased. But I am betting you experts are correct and the v2 is cathode biased 
  
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bacci

I'm having trouble understanding how changing the output resistors will affect sound and the volume pot. 
  I've seen some of you change the stock ones (in my case 31.6 ohm) with 60R or even 100R. Would this pose problems when using low impedance cans e.g. Senn 598's (50 ohm), like lack of dampening and/or volume range on the pot which can already not be turned past 9 o'clock?


----------



## Cya|\|

Hey guys, I got my indeed amp. But it has a very high distortion, like clipping. The amp volume is no more than half, and I´ve even tried reducing the sound card volume to 70%.
  The package was in perfect condition. I´ve tried contacting the seller via ebay, but he doesn´t answer. Do you know how to solve the problem?


----------



## geetarman49

assuming u have the indeed g2, check to ensure that the 6/12v selector switch is in the appropriate position for the type of tube u r using.
   
  try connecting your indeed g2 to a cd/dvd player and play a typical cd.  most hps with less < 100r, a 9 o'clock setting on the indeed should be sufficient to blast your ears out (akg k60x/70x excepted).  if distortion is not present, then the issue lies with your pc setup.  if distortion is still present,  try a different tube, try different interconnects.  if that doesn't help, time to contact your seller.
   
  if distortion is not present with the above test, then reconnect your indeed to your soundcard and set the indeed vol. to ~ 9am... lower your soundcard vol to 10% and play.  now slowly increase your soundcard vol until u achieve a comfortable listening level.
   
  hth,
   
  Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Hey guys, I got my indeed amp. But it has a very high distortion, like clipping. The amp volume is no more than half, and I´ve even tried reducing the sound card volume to 70%.
> The package was in perfect condition. I´ve tried contacting the seller via ebay, but he doesn´t answer. Do you know how to solve the problem?


----------



## Cya|\|

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> assuming u have the indeed g2, check to ensure that the 6/12v selector switch is in the appropriate position for the type of tube u r using.
> 
> try connecting your indeed g2 to a cd/dvd player and play a typical cd.  most hps with less < 100r, a 9 o'clock setting on the indeed should be sufficient to blast your ears out (akg k60x/70x excepted).  if distortion is not present, then the issue lies with your pc setup.  if distortion is still present,  try a different tube, try different interconnects.  if that doesn't help, time to contact your seller.
> 
> ...


 

  
  Btw, the system works perfect with my other amp, the bcl. Where is the 6/12v selector?
  My hp are the audeze lcd-2. About same resistance as the akg, but much less sensitivity (about 10db).


----------



## jjmai

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Btw, the system works perfect with my other amp, the bcl. Where is the 6/12v selector?


 


  Indeed G2 has the 6/12 selector:
  http://www.6c33.com/G2m.jpg
   
  Bravo V2 doesn't, though:
  http://www.easytrustdealer.com/pic/Tube/HA/HA2/connection.jpg


----------



## Cya|\|

Ok, wich position is 6 and wich 12? I have the 12au7, what voltage should I choose then?


----------



## jjmai

Quote: 





cya|\| said:


> Ok, wich position is 6 and wich 12? I have the 12au7, what voltage should I choose then?


 

  
  The circuit board should have some texts around the switch to indicate the position.
  The "6" and "12" should match the leading number (in most cases, especially American naming system) of the tube you want to use.  So in 12au7's case, use 12v.
  http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/data/thermionic-valves/vacuum-tube-numbering/tube-numbers.php


----------



## Bacci

Quote: 





jjmai said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Don't forget to set bias, here's how it's done (picture taken from _http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=b&action=display&thread=5213):_
   
   
  
  You don't need soldering or even to get the bottom plate off to measure and adjust bias. Just hold the multimeter in the right spots, adjust and measure again.


----------



## ejs811

Is it necessary to have a DAC between your source and this amp?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

A DAC_ IS_ a source...
  
  Quote: 





ejs811 said:


> Is it necessary to have a DAC between your source and this amp?


----------



## Eric_C

Quote: 





avro_arrow said:


> A DAC_ IS_ a source...


 

 That's not true. Most sources (iPods, CD players) do have DACs inside them, but a source is the device that reads the data. 
  Sources that only read but don't convert digital data into analogue signals are transports. For example, this can be a CD player without a DAC, or it can be a laptop connected to an external DAC, bypassing the laptops internal one.
   

  
  Quote: 





ejs811 said:


> Is it necessary to have a DAC between your source and this amp?


 

 For digital files, a DAC is always necessary. An amp is also always necessary. In sequence, here's what's happening every time you want to play music in a digital format (e.g.: a MP3 file):

 The file needs to be read
 The file needs to be converted from a digital to an analogue signal
 The analogue signal needs to be amplified for your earphones/speakers
   
  As I said, most sources have DACs inside them. So the most accurate way to answer your question, is if you tell us what your source is?


----------



## ejs811

Ipod, or macbook.
  I assume that both of these have DACs in them, but an external DAC is proverbially 'better'?


----------



## Eric_C

Quote: 





ejs811 said:


> Ipod, or macbook.
> I assume that both of these have DACs in them, but an external DAC is proverbially 'better'?


 

 Yes, of course they have DACs in them. Ok the basic test of whether something has a DAC is: with just the device and your headphones or speakers, can you play music files? If so, then it definitely has a DAC (well, and an amp).
   
  External DACs are reputed to be better. I don't know for sure, but that's not my decision to make. I would, however, like to warn you that bypassing the DAC on an iPod is trickier than a MacBook, but that discussion can be found in a number of other threads on Head-Fi.
   
  The short of it is: try using the amp with the iPod or MacBook first, before you decide to add any other components to the chain.


----------



## ejs811

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Great, thanks for the info!


----------



## Avro_Arrow

You just agreed with me, a DAC is a source.
  
  Quote: 





eric_c said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Eric_C

Avro_Arrow: no, I didn't. I said a source reads, and in many sources today, sources have DACs inside them as well. That's like saying many business shoes are black, but not all black shoes are business shoes. 
  Analogies aside, please name me a DAC that can play a digital music file. Similarly, explain to me how a transport is not a source. This is a CD transport: http://www.littledot.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=823
  It is a source, is it not? How is it a DAC?


----------



## momostallion

... still waiting for my bravo!  
   
  at least i'm ready for it now.  i've got my headphones (M50s) all nice and broken in.  also got an iphone4 dock with a line out.


----------



## Garage1217

Ok did a lot of research and after talking with the guys on Rock Grotto, I have ordered my mod list prior to my bravo V2 showing up 
   
  The mods are as follows and all available at mouser for a small amount of coin. I did not go for any fancy caps as they were out of stock, but these will do fine and are of appropriate value from rock grott's member Solder Dude which seems pretty spot on with his knowledge and modifications...
   
  1qty 4700uF
  647-UVZ1V472MHD
   
  2qty IRL530PBF
  844-IRL530PBF
   
  2qty 2200uF caps
  647-UVY1E222MHD
   
  2qty 1/4" SQ 5K Trimpot
  652-3362P-1-502TLF
   
  Another recommended mod was to remove the two caps just above the volume knob and run jumpers without caps instead!
   
  Here is the actual post with the good mod info...
  http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m&action=display&thread=5297&page=1


----------



## momostallion

awesome.  i might have to copy you.  are you going to try a different tube as well?
   
  when did you order yours?
   
  Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> Ok did a lot of research and after talking with the guys on Rock Grotto, I have ordered my mod list prior to my bravo V2 showing up
> 
> The mods are as follows and all available at mouser for a small amount of coin. I did not go for any fancy caps as they were out of stock, but these will do fine and are of appropriate value from rock grott's member Solder Dude which seems pretty spot on with his knowledge and modifications...
> 
> ...


----------



## Garage1217

Yes, I have several tubes I want to try, see if it makes a difference. Also to be clear, I did not design those mods.. I found them on rock grotto's site.


----------



## momostallion

yea.  i flipped through some of the thread.
  when did you order you bravo? 

  
  Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> Yes, I have several tubes I want to try, see if it makes a difference. Also to be clear, I did not design those mods.. I found them on rock grotto's site.


----------



## -su

A bit teaser... did some of the rockgrotto's mods 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Still waiting for some IRF510s, and Bourns 3386 5K trimpots...
   
   



   
  sorry for bad quality pic though


----------



## Bacci

Quote: 





-su said:


> A bit teaser... did some of the rockgrotto's mods
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Nice! I'm waiting for my parts to do the final and most difficult mod, a separate heater power circuit.
  The thing's either going to sound amazing or be ready for the trash. 
  As per usual I shall plug it in outside first, until it is reasonably established that it's not going to set my house alight


----------



## 129207

Well I just bought one on Ebay. They won't ship it until after Chinese New Year though. 
   
  So, I got this as my first mod project. Ideally, it would make my HD580 sing tubey magic to me. If it won't, than that's alright too since I'm actually not expecting much. Anyone got some easy advice for a total DIY-noob to increase the potential of this little gadget? I'm in The Netherlands before everyone goes "get capacitor X from this American store, get cap Y from..." etc. I don't even know what a capacitor is. I'm a quick learner though.


----------



## Lazerboy2000

How do you replace the mofset with the IRF510? It looks like it would just pop right in/out after taking out the screw but is any soldering or special tools needed? Also where's a good place to get a IRF510?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Yes, you have to desolder the old one and solder in the new one.
  As for "special tools", all you need is a soldering iron and some
  desoldering braid or maybe a solder solder sucker and a bit of solder.
   
  As for a "good place", that depends on where you are...
  
  Quote: 





lazerboy2000 said:


> How do you replace the mofset with the IRF510? It looks like it would just pop right in/out after taking out the screw but is any soldering or special tools needed? Also where's a good place to get a IRF510?


----------



## momostallion

i'm getting sick of waiting for this thing,


----------



## sharkz

I've read through most of these pages at one point or another and don't remember if anyone has dealt with upgrading the volume knob. I remember reading about issues regarding it and commenting about it, but it has really started to bug me. Its less an issue via MP3 player where I can adjust things with the players volume more, but listening to vinyl, I have volume balance issues and just plain noise if I don't get the pot to the right place.
   
  Is there a cheap, easy to install upgrade to replace the volume pot with something better?


----------



## Avro_Arrow

Unless you "air wire" something better in, you are stuck with the Alps RK097 form factor...
   
  FWIW, my volume control has never given my any problem.
   
   
  Quote: 





sharkz said:


> I've read through most of these pages at one point or another and don't remember if anyone has dealt with upgrading the volume knob. I remember reading about issues regarding it and commenting about it, but it has really started to bug me. Its less an issue via MP3 player where I can adjust things with the players volume more, but listening to vinyl, I have volume balance issues and just plain noise if I don't get the pot to the right place.
> 
> Is there a cheap, easy to install upgrade to replace the volume pot with something better?


----------



## sharkz

Your lucky then. It really didn't start bothering me till recently. It was always dropping sound out in one channel or another when adjusting the volume, but recently I realized if I don't position it just so, when I pause whatever I listen to, there is potentiometer induced noise present in one or both channels. Again it is less issue with a source with its own volume control (ie DAP), but listening to vinyl, something I do a lot, its kind of annoying sometimes.
   
  Maybe I'll have to look into a replacement Alps unit, or buy a few and see which sounds best.


----------



## Bacci

Having done all the mods with listening sessions in between, in terms of impact on sound quality my top 3 is:
   
  1/ Supplying tube filament heater with own power supply. Takes the amp to a new level, adding resolution , clarity, power and significantly reduces the noise floor. HARD
  2/ Adding cathode bias bypass caps (Overall improvement, esp. better highs). VERY EASY
  3/ Changing output caps to higher value and better quality (Adds bass, bass extension). EASY
   
  The effect of other mods (input cap, regulated power supply, ..) are more subtle to spot.
  Tube rolling is the icing on the cake, of course.
   
  So adding cathode bias bypass caps is a good place to start, mind the polarity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Good luck!


----------



## Cya|\|

To be honest, I don´t really like this tube amp. I prefer my solid state BCL. I think I´m going to sell the au17 indeed g2 (dale resistors) version.


----------



## 129207

Awesome! Thanks! 
  Quote: 





bacci said:


> Having done all the mods with listening sessions in between, in terms of impact on sound quality my top 3 is:
> 
> 1/ Supplying tube filament heater with own power supply. Takes the amp to a new level, adding resolution , clarity, power and significantly reduces the noise floor. HARD
> 2/ Adding cathode bias bypass caps (Overall improvement, esp. better highs). VERY EASY
> ...


----------



## -su

Are the cathode bias caps installed across / paralleled to each of these red-circled resistors?
   
  Thanks


----------



## Texaseye

Me too. Ordered January 23rd. Checking status today it's still in Hong Kong at the Air Mail facility. Gonna be a week at the least i think. 
   
   
  Replying to momostalion.


----------



## justhandguns

Quote: 





texaseye said:


> Me too. Ordered January 23rd. Checking status today it's still in Hong Kong at the Air Mail facility. Gonna be a week at the least i think.
> 
> 
> Replying to momostalion.


 

 Well, seems like you've been hit my the Chinese NY holiday in HK. Things should be starting to roll by now.


----------



## -su

Quote: 





-su said:


> Are the cathode bias caps installed across / paralleled to each of these red-circled resistors?
> 
> Thanks


 

 Anyone?
  Apparently I found some unused 220uF 16V cerafine caps from my latest project,
  so if the cathode bias caps is also applicable (and gives advantage) on this bravo v2 12AU7 version,
  then I will surely try to do that since it is quite easy to be done


----------



## Texaseye

Finally got my amp in. Have to say i like it lots. Use it in my gaming setup with my ath-a700's. The highs are crisp and sharp and it's got power.


----------



## duheee

Does anyone know if this amp comes with any connection wires? Is there a difference in sound quality between 3.5mm to 3.5mm, and RCA to 3.5mm? Also, where is a good place to buy such cables with decent quality while still inexpensive? I would not like to spend more than $10 on a cable.


----------



## Lazerboy2000

I don't recall the amp coming with any cables other than the power cable. 
   
  Check out monoprice.com for great cables at incredibly low prices. It seems to be a very popular source for cables around here


----------



## 129207

I just received my Bravo V2 12AU7 in the mail. Looks pretty cute. Everything seems to work although the power input socket is wobbly (need the put the plug in just right for it to hold power) and when not connected to a source the things hums and buzzes like crazy. When you start playing a song it's gone though. Even when the track is dead silent. As soon as you turn off the source the humming and buzzing starts again. 
   
  The sound coming from the stock configuration is pretty good for the price I payed ($50 incl. shipping to The Netherlands). When A/B'ing with my Headstage Arrow the Bravo sounds thinner and grainier. The Arrow has more body and, even without the bassboost, sounds warmer. Still, considering the price difference the Bravo sounds pretty good and drives my HD580 and DT880 to ear-shattering volume. 
   
   I've been looking into all the upgrades over at the Rockgrotto forum and they seem pretty straightforward. Gonna try them out one by one. I'm not much of a DIY'er (yet!) so I'll have to take babysteps.  
   
  Overall, pretty nice unit for the price. It looks great and makes for a great budget amp. Would like to compare it to the Fiio E9!
   
EDIT: forget everything I just said! Sparks! Fire! I pulled the power plug during playback and when I put it back in again huge orange sparks came from the socket! No sound for a couple of seconds, then full sound returned. This thing is UNSTABLE! Awesome.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





negakinu said:


> EDIT: forget everything I just said! Sparks! Fire! I pulled the power plug during playback and when I put it back in again huge orange sparks came from the socket! No sound for a couple of seconds, then full sound returned. This thing is UNSTABLE! Awesome.


 


  Funny, but you might want to contact the Bravo people (for a replacement?)
  And come to the meet on March 27, so we can see the firesparks ourselves


----------



## 129207

Wait, what? Meet? In Belgium or The Netherlands? You got a link? I want to come!


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





make123 said:


> Man and man met by a little predestination, people get along by a little sincerity, people intersection by is a sincerity.


 


  come again?


----------



## Garage1217

Received my Bravo V2 12AU7 model yesterday. Took it out, fired it up and gave it a good few hour listen going back and forth between my zunes direct out and then through the amp. It was not packaged that well, and took over a month to arrive but not that big of a deal as it all arrived in one piece. It looks nice / not bad build quality for the price. How does it sound? As it was out of the package, all I could think is what a flaming pile of crap it was. It was fat sounding in the bottom end, highs and sparkle did not exists really... was a little harsh... just crappy. All I could think about was how much cash I just wasted on the pile. So I took a break and came back. Yep still sounded like a flaming pile.
   
  After reading about all the mods, I pretty much performed most all of them.
  - Added in 5K trim pots to adjust bias
  - Replaced the power supply cap with a 4700uF / 35V nichicon
  - Replaced the two 1000uF units with 2200uF 105C nichicon units
  - Yanked out the two small caps on the output side, right next to the tube and ran jumpers
  - Replaced the 630's with IRL530PBF mosfets
  - And cut some traces and so forth per the crosstalk mod
   
  Everyone kept complaining how horrid and fragile the stock circuit board is. The pics looks the same as the unit I have, except I found it to be reasonable. I was expecting a board made with a laser jet and home kit in which someone sprayed black spraypaint on *LOL* The lead free solder was the only part that made it a pain since it is much higher temp. Just used a solder sucker and cranked up the heat on my station and it removed with ease. Mods were cake overall.
   
  On another note, the stock capacitors were very odd. They weighed about 50% less than the nichicons I used even though they were about the same size. Felt like they were made of foam they were so light? Strange.
   
  Sounds like a lot but all of it took me around 30 minutes. Took me a bit to figure out were to test for bias but got it and set it at 13.75ish vdc on both channels. After this, let it sit for around 30 minutes per the guide I read and re-checked it, made some minor tweaks and tossed on my headphones. In all honesty, I still expected rubbish as I was so disappointed previously. So I listened, and listened some more... Wow! Is this even the same amp? Well not really as I made so many changes but whoa! It really sounds good! The murky thick bottom end was tight and smooth, vocals were fantastic and spacious, the top end that simply wasn't prior WAS! I went back and forth between the direct out of the zune and back to the amp. I was able to get the volume almost perfectly balanced between switching back and forth and the little amp simply made the sound much more enjoyable, especially vocals, mid-bass and bottom end. I had read with these mods, the frequency response was almost flat so I thought I may just be dreaming this up so I had some help and did some back to back a/b to see if I could pick out the little bravo amp and every single time I could so it was not a placebo effect. Overall I wanted to thank solderdude. and oohms for the posts and writeup over on rock grotto. These mods are fantastic and make this cheap budget amp SING! This little guy is the steal of the century for sure!


----------



## duheee

I'm sorry, i am new to this, but what is a "pot", and where could this be bought? I plan on doing the mosfet and 5k pot mod when i receive my bravo V2. Also, what is meant when you cut the traces for the crosstalk mod?
   
  Any help would be greatly appreciated,
  Duheee


----------



## Garage1217

Most all of the mod info is located here...
  http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m&action=display&thread=5297&page=1
   
  A pot is a potentiometer.


----------



## holidayanimal

Quote: 





negakinu said:


> EDIT: forget everything I just said! Sparks! Fire! I pulled the power plug during playback and when I put it back in again huge orange sparks came from the socket! No sound for a couple of seconds, then full sound returned. This thing is UNSTABLE! Awesome.


 

 you "pulled the power plug during playback" and are wondering why there are sparkles... how crazy is that - especially to a tube-amp...i like this!-) i think my eyes are sparkling with joy too..


----------



## jjmai

Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> Sounds like a lot but all of it took me around 30 minutes.


 
   
  Wow, all that took half an hour, and within a day of receipt of the amp?
 I wish I had your soldering skill and all the components on hand.


----------



## Garage1217

Was a very long... long... day *LOL* And I sling a lot of solder for part of my living so it was cake.
  Quote: 





jjmai said:


> Wow, all that took half an hour, and within a day of receipt of the amp?
> I wish I had your soldering skill and all the components on hand.


----------



## Garage1217

Pic of my little budget gem with the jj ecc82 gold pin glowing away.


----------



## Garage1217

Oh and I replaced the knob in case anyone missed that 
   
  I have an entire set of parts / all parts I used in my mods including the knob and an extra JJ gold pin tube if anyone wants to copy the setup, shoot me a PM.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> Oh and I replaced the knob in case anyone missed that
> 
> I have an entire set of parts / all parts I used in my mods including the knob and an extra JJ gold pin tube if anyone wants to copy the setup, shoot me a PM.


 


  If I knew how to solder I would


----------



## Bacci

Quote: 





jjmai said:


> Wow, all that took half an hour, and within a day of receipt of the amp?
> I wish I had your soldering skill and all the components on hand.


 

 I can believe it can be done in a couple of hours. Just finished an AMB Gamma 22 which involves SMD soldering with a magnifying glass. The components are so big and easy that soldering on the Indeed or Bravo amps now almost seems like welding, even though a month ago I was struggling with basic soldering myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  After all the important mods are done and a decent tube is in, you won't believe how these little amps will keep scaling up with any improvements you make to the rest of your gear.


----------



## Garage1217

Right on! Yeah I have to solder 0603 sized components on a regular basis. About as small as I go which = just larger than a spec of pepper haha.
   
  These little amps truly are gems once modified!


----------



## duheee

Where did you buy the knob, mosfets and pots? Any good cheap websites where i could get parts in general?


----------



## ejs811

The problem I have is it moves around on my desk with the slightest tension on the cord. Need rubber feet or something....


----------



## jjmai

Quote: 





duheee said:


> Where did you buy the knob, mosfets and pots? Any good cheap websites where i could get parts in general?


 

  
  I believe most of those Nichicon parts used in Garage1217's mod can be found at digikey or mouser.  But I don't know which exact model of each component gives the best result - I guess the audio grade instead of the general purpose ones.
  And I have no idea what type of knob he used.
  I sure would like to know the model/part numbers of those components myself.


----------



## Garage1217

I ordered my parts from mouser...
   
  1qty 647-UVZ1V472MHD      4700uF cap
   
  2qty 647-UVY1E222MHD     2200uF caps
   
  2qty 844-IRL530PBF Mosfets / drastically extends the amps frequency response compared to the irf630's
   
  2qty 652-3362P-1-502TLF Bourns trim pots
   
  The caps are standard nichicons which are VERY good caps.
   
  The knob I ordered from China / I bought about 15 of them back in the day. You can buy them from ebay. Had to drill it out a bit to fit the alps shaft, but not much. Just a few thou. Slightly off-center but no biggie as I never use the knob.
   
  I would also add 2qty of 1K 1/4W resistors to place across the pots.


----------



## ejs811

How do you get the old knob off?


----------



## Garage1217

Pulled, really hard.


----------



## -su

Got a problem last night with my bravo... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Suddenly I heard some pops on my cans plugged into the bravo, and then the volume decreased around 50%.
  All i can notice is the red LED has gone. I know that this red LED is part of the circuit design (not only for power indicator or accessory)
  I measured the voltage across the LED, around 7.7V.
  Any suggestion to fix this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  What is the spec of this LED anyway?


----------



## JahSia

What's up with these auctions? Seems like some guys are bidding on these amps day in and day out, I saw some guy with almost 1000 bids on these amps.
  Are there any other resellers than eBay that I'm missing?


----------



## momostallion

finally got mine in!
   
  besides the crappy power cord, it all works great.


----------



## ejs811

Quote: 





jahsia said:


> What's up with these auctions? Seems like some guys are bidding on these amps day in and day out, I saw some guy with almost 1000 bids on these amps.
> Are there any other resellers than eBay that I'm missing?


 


  Probably a shill bidder because if they sold at TRUE market value they would sell for $15 a piece.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Exactly, they bid on their own amps on an other account. but sometimes they forget. take your time and you'll win one at a good price.
  Use gixen.com


----------



## momostallion

were you able to remedy this problem?
  i have to put my power cable in at an angle and make sure it keeps tension (toothpick!).  
  it's not making proper contact.  i think i might try bending the contact pins in the d/c input socket.
   
  Quote: 





negakinu said:


> Everything seems to work although the power input socket is wobbly (need the put the plug in just right for it to hold power)


----------



## JahSia

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Exactly, they bid on their own amps on an other account. but sometimes they forget. take your time and you'll win one at a good price.
> Use gixen.com


 


  Ok, thanks guys.. Will try to get one, looking forward to roll some tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Didn't know there was a free sniper site either, thanks for that tip too!


----------



## -su

Quote: 





-su said:


> Got a problem last night with my bravo...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Replaced the red LED, no luck.
  I've also found that the left 2N3906 pins are all shorted...
  (well actually before that I found that the 5k trimpot has no resistance, but after I desolder it, it works well) 
  Does it mean the transistor is also broken? 
   
  Need helps guys.


----------



## ejs811

Has anyone put theirs in a metal box with closed sides?


----------



## jjmai

Quote: 





ejs811 said:


> Has anyone put theirs in a metal box with closed sides?


 


  Why?  That's gonna get hot quick.  I actually have a fan blowing on mine some of the time.


----------



## ejs811

Thought this looks a bit nicer than the plexiglass.


----------



## 129207

Quote: 





momostallion said:


> were you able to remedy this problem?
> i have to put my power cable in at an angle and make sure it keeps tension (toothpick!).
> it's not making proper contact.  i think i might try bending the contact pins in the d/c input socket.


 

 I haven't found a solution yet. I just angle it right and then try to keep it balanced without touching it.  Ridiculous actually... 
   
  I received a nice package from Garage1217 with his spare parts! Now all I need is some DIY skills to let the modding commence!


----------



## momostallion

replacing the adapter is the best choice or a power cable upgrade.
   
  for now, i was able to ever-so slightly bend the center pin down in the power inlet.  
  since the power adapter only has two bars of contacts inside, just line them up top to bottom and it works better.  power cable fits a bit more snug now too.
  
  Quote: 





negakinu said:


> I haven't found a solution yet. I just angle it right and then try to keep it balanced without touching it.  Ridiculous actually...
> 
> I received a nice package from Garage1217 with his spare parts! Now all I need is some DIY skills to let the modding commence!


----------



## Bacci

Welcome to the DIY club! 
   
  These Chinese amps are an excellent start to learn soldering. The parts and joints are nice and big, the mods are very well documented and the circuit is relatively simple to understand. 
  You'll really be surprised by how fast you'll become skilled at this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I'm currently working on an AMB M^3 amp myself, based on OPA627s and with an extra bass boost pot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Never soldered in my life until I started modding my Indeed G2 3 months ago!
   
   
  PS In Benelux I find ordering at Farnell to be great for small quantities (shipping is always free and delivered the next day), Mouser is cheaper for large orders (free shipping > 75 EUR) and usually has more choice but takes 3 to 5 days to arrive as they ship from the US.
  Also, make sure to check out the 'make presents' videos on youtube, very helpful to learn the role of various components on a PCB.
   
  Quote: 





negakinu said:


> I haven't found a solution yet. I just angle it right and then try to keep it balanced without touching it.  Ridiculous actually...
> 
> I received a nice package from Garage1217 with his spare parts! Now all I need is some DIY skills to let the modding commence!


----------



## ostap

Hello!
  I got this cute amp yesterday and am satisfied with the soud. But there is loud buzzing, probably from WiFi, driving me crazy!. I can even change the character and volume of the buzzing by moving RCA and (which I find strange) by moving the headphones cable too. Only solution I was able to find is to find silent spot on my desk. Well, here I have failed and need some more advice. Should I shield the unit somehow?
   
  My setup: laptop PC -> Pro-ject USB Box DAC -> Bravo amp -> Shure SRH240
   
  Thanks for any input!


----------



## 129207

This happened to mine as well but it went away completely after 24 hours of burn-in. No idea why.


----------



## Bacci

Quote: 





ostap said:


> Hello!
> I got this cute amp yesterday and am satisfied with the soud. But there is loud buzzing, probably from WiFi, driving me crazy!. I can even change the character and volume of the buzzing by moving RCA and (which I find strange) by moving the headphones cable too. Only solution I was able to find is to find silent spot on my desk. Well, here I have failed and need some more advice. Should I shield the unit somehow?
> 
> My setup: laptop PC -> Pro-ject USB Box DAC -> Bravo amp -> Shure SRH240
> ...


 
   
  You could put it in a metal case connected to the ground plane to solve the interference problem. You would need to replace the RCA jacks and power switch with panel mounted ones (unless you can find a case with exactly the Bravo's dimensions). Shouldn't cost more than a few dollars, add another 20$ or so for a Hammond case or similar. Making a nice top cover with enough air flow for the LM's and MOSFETs will require some dremel work.


----------



## ostap

whoa, slow down my friend! I'm not skilled nor equipped enough to replace any components, so I guess I'll give it few more hours of playing time and see if the same happens as did to Negakinu.


----------



## ostap

whoa, slow down my friend! I'm not skilled nor equipped enough to replace any components, so I guess I'll give it few more hours of playing time and see if the same happens as did to Negakinu.


----------



## ostap

I was doing some thinking, and I think there is no use trying to keep Bravo amp at all costs, considering there is huge WiFi/GSM router on the building next door. I'm thinking of letting go both the Bravo amp and Pro-ject USB box and replacing it with uDAC. That will provide for both my Shure 240s and my active speakers in one gadget. Do you think this is good idea? Will uDAC pick the same buzzing from the WiFi mess I seem to have in my room?


----------



## ostap

Some progress in the case, maybe? I hooked up my old cheap Philips headphones and they produce silent to none buzzing when connected to the amp. Volume needs to be turned way up to achieve the same sound volume as with Shure, so I guess there is big difference in impedance between these two. This might also be the reason why the Shures are such a good WiFi signal receiver   I thought headphones at this level would be shielded in some way, but i was obviously wrong. What can I do to help it?


----------



## Bacci

Quote: 





ostap said:


> Some progress in the case, maybe? I hooked up my old cheap Philips headphones and they produce silent to none buzzing when connected to the amp. Volume needs to be turned way up to achieve the same sound volume as with Shure, so I guess there is big difference in impedance between these two. This might also be the reason why the Shures are such a good WiFi signal receiver   I thought headphones at this level would be shielded in some way, but i was obviously wrong. What can I do to help it?


 
   
   
  I'm actually a little annoyed as well about not being able to have my mobile phone in proximity to my Indeed G2 amp. I also just want the look of the amp to match the rest of my gear so yesterday I ordered a small Hammond case (1455N1202BK - almost the right size!) and grabbed these from a Chinese supplier:
   

   
  The tube will go on top of the case; power switch, DC socket and RCAs will be mounted on the back panel, I hope by using the case as heatsink for the LM's (insulated) I'll be able to get away with just a few ventilation holes for the mosfets.


----------



## ostap

funny thing is that I observed no interference with cellphone, even when it's few centimeters from the amp and phone call is going on.


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





ostap said:


> funny thing is that I observed no interference with cellphone, even when it's few centimeters from the amp and phone call is going on.


 

 GSM or CDMA?  I've heard GSM phones are the worse offenders.  Drives me nuts.  Happens with a lot of audio devices (general devices [that produce audio] included).  Wifi causes this as well but you have to be a lot closer to the source of the interference or have a powerful source of interference.  Other then a balanced setup end to end, better shielded cables or interference rejecting cables and shielded devices is the only real solution other than living with it.  Still there is only so much you can do other than shutting it off or putting it into airplane mode.


----------



## ostap

Quote: 





thekisho said:


> GSM or CDMA?  I've heard GSM phones are the worse offenders.  Drives me nuts.  Happens with a lot of audio devices (general devices [that produce audio] included).  Wifi causes this as well but you have to be a lot closer to the source of the interference or have a powerful source of interference.  Other then a balanced setup end to end, better shielded cables or interference rejecting cables and shielded devices is the only real solution other than living with it.  Still there is only so much you can do other than shutting it off or putting it into airplane mode.


 
   
  It's GSM phone, and as I said, it makes no interference at all. It's the large WiFi/GSM router on building next door that I suspect to be responsible.


----------



## ejs811

My blackberry will be on the other side of the room and I can still hear that infamous interference when it goes off.


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





ostap said:


> It's GSM phone, and as I said, it makes no interference at all. It's the large WiFi/GSM router on building next door that I suspect to be responsible.


 

 If it's constant chirping like sound it's wifi.  GSM is short burst when you get a message, phone call, or when it checks with the tower every 15-30mins or so [And when you turn your phone on or off].  If it's a cell phone transmitter it'll probably be transmitting constantly, never been close enough to one to have issues.  Can you not move away or file a complant about this annoyance?


----------



## ostap

Quote: 





thekisho said:


> If it's constant chirping like sound it's wifi.  GSM is short burst when you get a message, phone call, or when it checks with the tower every 15-30mins or so [And when you turn your phone on or off].  If it's a cell phone transmitter it'll probably be transmitting constantly, never been close enough to one to have issues.  Can you not move away or file a complant about this annoyance?


 

 Well, it's a student dorm, so I could move, but not before the summer. And filing a complaint? Come on, I don't want hundreds of people to lose their WiFi or GSM signal just because my amp is buzzing 
   
  I hoticed that the power cord lacks grounding, it has only 2 wires. Could the fact that the thing is not grounded be the problem here?
   
  Also, I managed to  reduce the buzzing dramatically by placing some alluminium foil around the accesible part of large-mini jack reduction. It is about 10X10 cm piece of allu foil, touching the connector at one point.


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





ostap said:


> I hoticed that the power cord lacks grounding, it has only 2 wires. Could the fact that the thing is not grounded be the problem here?
> 
> Also, I managed to  reduce the buzzing dramatically by placing some alluminium foil around the accesible part of large-mini jack reduction. It is about 10X10 cm piece of allu foil, touching the connector at one point.


 


  You mean from the brick to the amp?  It's DC, it's has a ground and positive lead.  If you mean from the brick to the wall, that's odd because mine has a 3 prong cable.  But this doesn't concern me as it's probably designed not to need a ground.  I've always found grounded [power] devices always produce more audio problems.  It could be the source, the chain, amp or circuit, the quality of the power supply (or if it's in working order), or external interference.
   
  Did you do this to the headphone output or one of the inputs?  It could be you are getting interference from the amp itself.  I remember they added shielding onto the alps audio pots because the amp was adding noise into the audio pot.  Both the inputs and headphone jack are close enough to the audio pot, it could be this interference from the amp, but I think other users will probably be seeing the same issue if this was the case.  If it works for you why don't you glue it on as a permanent fix?  How thick is the Al foil?  Maybe another layer will make it almost entirely go away.


----------



## ostap

This is how the Al foil hack looks like. It's just normal foil you wrap food into, I think i got it from a chocolate  It holds there with with hairpin. I will play around with it to achieve best results later.
   
  Some suggest putting whole amp into metal case for shielding, is this good idea? how about ventilation/overheating?
   
  Also, could a ferrite magnet placed on headphones cable help here?


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





ostap said:


> Some suggest putting whole amp into metal case for shielding, is this good idea? how about ventilation/overheating?


 

 If the interference doesn't come from the amp itself then it should work pretty good.  The amp isn't that hot, just make sure you have some vents on the top size (many small holes) [the entire top plate (should have holes), or at very least over the tube and heatsinks].
   
  I don't see how that helps [your fix], it's over the 1/8 to 1/4 TRS adapter [the exposed area].  If this is the problem I don't see a case helping.  Are you by chance using the crappy 1/8 to 1/4 TRS adapter that came with the amp?  If so throw it out already.  Have you tried another adapter?
   
  Ferrite beads are voodoo in my opinion.


----------



## ostap

Quote: 





thekisho said:


> I don't see how that helps [your fix], it's over the 1/8 to 1/4 TRS adapter [the exposed area].  If this is the problem I don't see a case helping.  Are you by chance using the crappy 1/8 to 1/4 TRS adapter that came with the amp?  If so throw it out already.  Have you tried another adapter?


 


  I have tried both the adapter that came with the amp, and the one shipped with Shure headphones. same thing. I too can't get to understand this whole thing, but the Al foil helped a lot, though I dont know how or why.


----------



## Bacci

Quote: 





ostap said:


> I have tried both the adapter that came with the amp, and the one shipped with Shure headphones. same thing. I too can't get to understand this whole thing, but the Al foil helped a lot, though I dont know how or why.


 

 It looks like the alu foil is connected to the ground plane via the headphone adapter, which would mean the foil is acting as sort of a a partial shield for the amp.
  Well if it works, why not! Just keep it away from the silver heatsinks


----------



## ostap

Quote: 





bacci said:


> It looks like the alu foil is connected to the ground plane via the headphone adapter, which would mean the foil is acting as sort of a a partial shield for the amp.
> Well if it works, why not! Just keep it away from the silver heatsinks


 
  I'm not sure if there is any ground plane, I mean there are just two cords in the power cable so there i no grounding there, I guess. I tried putting some more Al foil into that, but the buzz got louder again. Whoa, this is getting me confused! :-D
   
  I'm so glad for all you guys trying to help me. Thanks!


----------



## 129207

Well, my first DIY project ended quite abruptly. After doing the crossover-mod (cut path, bridge with wire) succesfully (listened to music to confirm) I replaced the biggest cap with the one I bought from Garage1217 (same part he did his mod with) and when turning the amp on the cap EXPLODED. A loud BANG and it burts open releasing a foul smell. I thought it was a dud so I put in the stock cap which EXPLODED as well as soon as I turned the amp on. I have absolutely no idea what I did wrong. The soldering looked solid but somehow I messed up.My living room now smells like a chemical waste facility. 
   
  I will take photos of the undertaking and post them later. I am now too depressed and disappointed to continue. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I know I shouldn't have started this DIY thing without a degree in electrical engineering.


----------



## ostap

Quote: 





bacci said:


> Just keep it away from the silver heatsinks


 


  OK, now I know why! Accidentaly touched one of those. this little thing would make nice fireworks too! :-D


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





ostap said:


> I'm not sure if there is any ground plane, I mean there are just two cords in the power cable so there i no grounding there, I guess


 
   
  It doesn't matter what the cord has [brick to the wall], that's all AC side (irreverent).  The amp probably doesn't have much of a ground plane, I know the new redesign indeed copies do but not sure about the one you have.  Either way voodoo fix works some what yay.
   
   
   
 [size=medium]Quote: 





ostap said:


> OK, now I know why! Accidentaly touched one of those. this little thing would make nice fireworks too! :-D






 Haha yah don't do that.  I did that once with an RCA connector (It wasn't that close but it has a lot of power).​[/size]


----------



## TheKisho

.


----------



## geetarman49

Negakinu - the large cap is an electrolytic ---> leads have polarity and u have likely reversed the polarity during the installation of the new cap & the reinstallation of the old; thus ... big bang syndrome ... welcome to diy 101  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
  Quote: 





negakinu said:


> Well, my first DIY project ended quite abruptly. After doing the crossover-mod (cut path, bridge with wire) succesfully (listened to music to confirm) I replaced the biggest cap with the one I bought from Garage1217 (same part he did his mod with) and when turning the amp on the cap EXPLODED. A loud BANG and it burts open releasing a foul smell. I thought it was a dud so I put in the stock cap which EXPLODED as well as soon as I turned the amp on. I have absolutely no idea what I did wrong. The soldering looked solid but somehow I messed up.My living room now smells like a chemical waste facility.
> 
> I will take photos of the undertaking and post them later. I am now too depressed and disappointed to continue.
> 
> ...


----------



## 129207

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> Negakinu - the large cap is an electrolytic ---> leads have polarity and u have likely reversed the polarity during the installation of the new cap & the reinstallation of the old; thus ... big bang syndrome ... welcome to diy 101
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  So this means I have accidentally put the Nichicon and the stock electrolytic in the wrong way around? I checked for markings but there are absolutely no indications on which way is which. Which way around should I put them then?  Btw, by blowing the electrolytic, does this mean my entire amp is screwed? Or can I just replace them and everything will function again? 
   
  Thanks for the help!


----------



## Bacci

Electrolytic caps have a line on them, that's the negative pole. 
It's hard to say if anything else got damaged, only one way to find out!

@ ostap negative = ground plane. It's basically the whole copper board under the green sheet, except for traces which are isolated 'islands' within it.


----------



## ostap

so the solution for the buzzing I keep hearing is putting the amp in metal case and connecting the case with the spot I currently have the alu foil attached to? I better ask than make some more fireworks with the thingy


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





negakinu said:


> I know I shouldn't have started this DIY thing without a degree in electrical engineering.


 


  Lol. that is exactly why my gf doesn't let me do anything with tools, I can't be trusted at all. I even managed to get an electrical shock from playing with an opened photocamera 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Hopefully the amp is still fine, bring it to the meet so I don't haver to bring mine


----------



## Bacci

Quote: 





ostap said:


> so the solution for the buzzing I keep hearing is putting the amp in metal case and connecting the case with the spot I currently have the alu foil attached to? I better ask than make some more fireworks with the thingy


 

 Yes, though I would go for a more elegant spot  
  Any solder joints that are not part of a trace are good, or if you don't like soldering you could somehow wrap it around the outside part of any of the RCA sockets.


----------



## geetarman49

Negakinu: - Bacci is absolutely correct.
   on new electrolytics (the radial type where both leads extend from the bottom), u may also notice that 1 lead tends to be longer than the other - that is the positive lead (negative lead is shorter).
  as for the condition of your bravo u can do a visual inspection to see if there is damage to any other components before u install another replacement cap. barring experience and test equipment, not much more u can do except to install & try it out - maybe have a fire extinguisher handy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.   g'luck & have fun.
  
  Quote: 





negakinu said:


> So this means I have accidentally put the Nichicon and the stock electrolytic in the wrong way around? I checked for markings but there are absolutely no indications on which way is which. Which way around should I put them then?  Btw, by blowing the electrolytic, does this mean my entire amp is screwed? Or can I just replace them and everything will function again?
> 
> Thanks for the help!


 


   


  Quote: 





bacci said:


> Electrolytic caps have a line on them, that's the negative pole.
> It's hard to say if anything else got damaged, only one way to find out!
> 
> @ ostap negative = ground plane. It's basically the whole copper board under the green sheet, except for traces which are isolated 'islands' within it.


----------



## kintamusic

Hi, I too have the buzzing sound with my Bravo V2. I am also using the Bravo V2 as a pre amp with my Magnavox single ended power amp driving a pair of Whitely 8" full range driver. I read an article sometime ago regarding the buzzing and static sound coming from the Bravo V2. It might be due to the stock power supply for the Bravo V2. I then use a Mean Well S-150-24 switching power supply with 24V , 6.5A. Now the buzzing and static sound is gone and I hear a lot of improvement with the new power supply unit.


----------



## DocBlasto

I've been lurking and occasionally posting at Head-Fi for years, but found this thread while searching for info on a cheaper and similar-looking tube amp: http://cgi.ebay.com/MHHA-Tube-6N11-Class-Headphone-Amplifier-Pre-AMP-NEW-/120698676471?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1a33a4f7#ht_3723wt_877
   
  Anyone have any experience with this one? I'm trying to make sense of the abundance of cheap Chinese-made tube amps on eBay.
   
  Either way, I'm honestly not crazy at all about the plexiglass panels and open sides, and would be likely to want to put it inside an enclosure of some sort, like a nice wooden cigar box. I understand that some of the heatsinks throw a good deal of heat... is it too much to safely enclose, assuming that there is plenty of room in the box and vent holes drilled below and above the board? Ideally, the tube itself would protrude through a hole in the lid and the pot, sockets and switches would be rewired to panel-mount ones instead.


----------



## 129207

To me it looks like the one you posted has even cheaper caps than the Bravo. I think the Indeed 12AU7 is the best version currently available because of it's easy bias-adjust. It's also the easiest to mod. Check out Rockgrotto forums for an extensive resource on these tube amps. 
   
  Mine blew up, by the way.


----------



## lasttodie

HI ,do not buy it !!!! I made ​​the mistake. The first I got had a high electrical noise, the seller sent me a new one,on this amp I could not turn the volume higher than  9 o'clock before the headphones distorted ..
  So if you want a tube amp I would look att something else


----------



## Ultrainferno

I'm very happy with my V2, I have no problems at all. There are tons of people on here who are very happy with their V2/Indeed, so I wouldn't really advise not to buy it.
  You had a bad personnal experience, thats sucks, but don't generalize


----------



## lasttodie

Your right, It was just stupid of me to wright "don't buy it" I'm sorry.


----------



## Jazzyfi

Bought mine 1 month ago. Did all the mods, including make my own better grounding, put ferrites clamp on the power supply cable, change the caps to low ESR Panasonic, fets to IRL510 and now the amps really sings.
  Use it with DT880 600 ohms and it sounds better than XCAN V8 I tried in hobo hifi. The owner was really amazed that the amp cost me 60$ + 20$ for components.
  What I think really important is the IRL510 and 5K pots for correct biasing (13.5V). The common ground loop problem can be solved (or at least minimalize) by hard wiring all ground points to the power supply ground. Also don't forget to measure DC offset between input and output ground, should be less than 1mV. And if you can afford, buy a good power supply , I think its a bit overkill for a 60$ amps to have a 100$ supply.


----------



## 129207

JazzFi, where did you get the IRL510 in Holland? All I found were IRF510 and IRF530. 
   
  Today I am going to try and finish modding my Bravo 12AU7. I replaced the exploded caps with new ones (Rubicon 35v and two golds) I kindly received from a fellow Head-Fi'er and everything seems to work properly again. I did the crossover mod as well. Now all I need to do is desolder the IRF610 and replace with my IRF510. I've had A LOT OF TROUBLE desoldering the mosfets. It's giving me nightmares. I think I almost ruined the PCB. Tonight will be my last attempt or it's going out of the window.


----------



## Jazzyfi

You shouldn't solder it using crappy tool, watch out if you ruin the pcb you need to hard wire the mosfet pins to the correct connections. You need some kind of "soder wick" desoldering braid to suck all the tin first, or a good solder vacuum. I like the wick more though. Don't forget to apply enough cool paste on the fets for good cooling (not too much). You can get many kind of components from okaphone.nl, you can email them if you can't find it in their website. Its a bit expensive compared to farnell but they sell it to "normal people" like us without KVK nummer.


----------



## DocBlasto

There's just one thing I'm failing to get from this discussion: are these mods necessary, in order to make the amp listenable? Has anyone opened the box, plugged it in, said "that sounds nice" and not broken out the soldering iron?
   
  I'm looking for an affordable desktop amp for work to power my cushy DT770s and would ideally like to modify this because I WANT to improve individual aspects , but not because I NEED them in order to enjoy the experience at all. I'm capable of doing these modifications, with the proper information, I just don't want to get stuck with a project out-of-the-box.


----------



## Jazzyfi

Depends on what do you mean with listenable. For me it was too warm, cut off frequency was 10KHz, so you know what that means.. no sparkly treble. The most important mod is the mosfet change, the rest is complementary.
  If you want it without mod you better get an indeed g2, already comes with irf510, good treble, and out of the box sounds much better than bravo v2 (also more expensive).
  
  Quote: 





docblasto said:


> There's just one thing I'm failing to get from this discussion: are these mods necessary, in order to make the amp listenable? Has anyone opened the box, plugged it in, said "that sounds nice" and not broken out the soldering iron?
> 
> I'm looking for an affordable desktop amp for work to power my cushy DT770s and would ideally like to modify this because I WANT to improve individual aspects , but not because I NEED them in order to enjoy the experience at all. I'm capable of doing these modifications, with the proper information, I just don't want to get stuck with a project out-of-the-box.


----------



## DocBlasto

Quote: 





jazzyfi said:


> Depends on what do you mean with listenable. For me it was too warm, cut off frequency was 10KHz, so you know what that means.. no sparkly treble. The most important mod is the mosfet change, the rest is complementary.
> If you want it without mod you better get an indeed g2, already comes with irf510, good treble, and out of the box sounds much better than bravo v2 (also more expensive).


 

 Thanks for the info, Jazzyfi. My Grado SR225's are my primary love, mostly because of those sparkly highs. I wear Beyers at work for comfort, build and practicality, so if the G2 have better treble, I'm all about it.
   
  I'm on eBay now and it seems like the Indeed G2 costs about $100 shipped, which isn't all that much  more than the other brands/labels. I see they're available with the 6922, 6N11 and 6N23P tubes. For your preferred sound, do any of those three stand out? I've seen some of these discussed elsewhere on the board, but damn of I can find them again.


----------



## sharkz

For $100, I would just look for a used Little Dot 1+. Jumper adjustable for impedance and they are supposed to be one of the better sounding tube hybrids with Grados. I have an Indeed G1 and am currently looking to upgrade, just want something a bit sturdier. The Indeeds are great at $40-60, but getting into $100 makes them less of a great value. Just my two cents.


----------



## DocBlasto

Quote: 





sharkz said:


> For $100, I would just look for a used Little Dot 1+. Jumper adjustable for impedance and they are supposed to be one of the better sounding tube hybrids with Grados. I have an Indeed G1 and am currently looking to upgrade, just want something a bit sturdier. The Indeeds are great at $40-60, but getting into $100 makes them less of a great value. Just my two cents.


 

 Hey, I really appreciate all of this feedback. I was wondering about the Little Dot... they're a beautiful little package. I'm hoping that whatever amp I buy will be happy driving both of my "good" headphones. I'm practically sold on the Little Dot because I love the form factor and the twin tubes.
   
  I wonder if they'll supply any sparkly treble to my DT770 Pro-80's.
   
  EDIT: On second thought, I guess that's DACs and EQs are for. I read that the Little Dot 1+ is great for headphones up to 250ohm or so. This may be my next amp!
   
  EDIT EDIT: Anyone have any experience ordering things through Ali Baba or Ali Express? 
   
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/333649482-Little-Dot-I-Hybrid-Headphone-Amplifier-6JI-standard-Quality-guarantee-100-Grinding-and-tubes-One-year-wholesalers.
   
  Little Dot I+ shipped for $110. Too good to be true?


----------



## Jazzyfi

I never heard the 6 type tubes. Mine is the 12 type tubes so I actually cannot give any recommendation about those. But looking at general point of view, 6922 is better than 12au7, and of course more expensive. I think Indeed will be a better choice than Little Dot especially if you are into modding. The possibility with Indeed/bravo is endless, depending on your skill and electronics understanding of course. If you try to search on rockgrotto you will see how many people are really into this small thing. Solderdude also made a complete tutorial in pdf with signal measurements.
  
  Quote: 





docblasto said:


> Thanks for the info, Jazzyfi. My Grado SR225's are my primary love, mostly because of those sparkly highs. I wear Beyers at work for comfort, build and practicality, so if the G2 have better treble, I'm all about it.
> 
> I'm on eBay now and it seems like the Indeed G2 costs about $100 shipped, which isn't all that much  more than the other brands/labels. I see they're available with the 6922, 6N11 and 6N23P tubes. For your preferred sound, do any of those three stand out? I've seen some of these discussed elsewhere on the board, but damn of I can find them again.


----------



## Bacci

I recently ordered parts (20$ or so) through Aliexpress, arrived after 2 weeks as advertised, seems they're legit.
  Quote: 





docblasto said:


> Hey, I really appreciate all of this feedback. I was wondering about the Little Dot... they're a beautiful little package. I'm hoping that whatever amp I buy will be happy driving both of my "good" headphones. I'm practically sold on the Little Dot because I love the form factor and the twin tubes.
> 
> I wonder if they'll supply any sparkly treble to my DT770 Pro-80's.
> 
> ...


----------



## DocBlasto

Quote: 





bacci said:


> I recently ordered parts (20$ or so) through Aliexpress, arrived after 2 weeks as advertised, seems they're legit.


 


  From what I've read, it's like a less policed version of Amazon. They have problems with some vendors, but I'll just read my ratings carefully and not buy anything that looks outright fishy. This vendor seems to sell only audio stuff like amps, DACs and tubes, and his feedback (from all over the world) is very good.


----------



## Teoman

I just got this in today. There was some power in it already, so as soon as I switched it on, it was lit. Attached the PSU, then hooked it up to my audio interface and started noticing a "Buzzzzz" sound. I have it going Dual RCA to Headphone output, is that why, or is it normal for this and other tube amps to have such noise? The headphone output on the Bravo amp seems messed up also... it was mono till I tapped on the headphone socket.

 Now, it's so heated up that it would burn an egg instantly. Is it normal for it to get this hot?

 Hooked up my D2000 instead of AKG K702, as I wasn't too fond of what the bravo provided them as it stands either, and there is a huge "CLICK" noise when I turn the device off and on, so I was a little worried to damage my K702's.

 Here it is on my messy desk;
   


 Cheers


----------



## Ultrainferno

V2 build quality seems to be dropping


----------



## Jazzyfi

Sorry to hear your problems. I always advice people to buy Indeed G2 instead of Bravo V2 if they are not into modding. The buzz sounds like it doesn't have a proper grounding (ground loop problem), it can probably be solved by hard wiring the input and output ground points to the power supply ground. Make sure the ground offset is not more than 1mV. The headphone socket might need resoldering.
  Btw, you shouldn't use low ohmic headphone with this amp. Its way too sensitive. I tried it with my ES3X and I hear dc everywhere.. Tried with my HD25-1 and it gives nice result but not better than my iQube. But with my DT880 600 ohm it really shows what it can do. It drives the DT880 with enough voltage swing, bass is really deep (if you change the output cap to 2200uF), treble really shines (if you change the fet to IRL510), and the DC buzz, click, etc is automatically filtered because of the high ohmic.
  Quote: 





teoman said:


> I just got this in today. There was some power in it already, so as soon as I switched it on, it was lit. Attached the PSU, then hooked it up to my audio interface and started noticing a "Buzzzzz" sound. I have it going Dual RCA to Headphone output, is that why, or is it normal for this and other tube amps to have such noise? The headphone output on the Bravo amp seems messed up also... it was mono till I tapped on the headphone socket.
> 
> Now, it's so heated up that it would burn an egg instantly. Is it normal for it to get this hot?
> 
> ...


----------



## Jazzyfi

Apparently indeed just made an improvement for their headphone amp only (without pre amp function) version. Indeed MK2 6922. Its cheaper than the G2 version with pre amp.
  Nice price, 70$. Better components, nice tube 6922 electro harmonix , IRF510 nice treble and good headroom when biased to 15.5V (irf have 4V Vgs instead of 2V IRL), more cap for the power supply filtering (but still 25V -_-'), panasonic output cap, too bad its still 1000uF.
   
  Grounding looks really good, with ground plane instead of spaghetti traces, should eliminate the common ground problem. This should be good out of the box! Only mod I can think of is the bypass cap for the bias resistor.
  So for those who want to have a nice out of the box, this is the one.


----------



## Jazzyfi

Uhhh, from the picture they even already put a wima bias cap next to the bias resistor! Nice!


----------



## swbf2cheater

Im supposed to get one of these in the next few days hopefully ( was actually due last week but still haven't gotten it )


----------



## ostap

I'm starting to regret my purchase of Bravo V2, I'm having troubles with it all the time. First there was horrible EMI problem - discussed few pages ago in this thread. Seller sent me another item (just the amp, without tube or power cord) and it seems the EMI buzzing is better (though still annoyingly present). Now I've noticed another annoyng sound, which probably comes from the crappy pover cord. It is constant "hummmm" of low tone, probably 200 hz frequency or so. It sounds like car engine from a distance. Two things about this sound are weird: it is present only in the right channel and when i touch bottom side of the transformator box on the power cord it either goes silent or changes to higher tone. sometimes, it silences itself for no obvious reason and appear few seconds later.
  So I have hummmmmm in right ear and buzzzz in both ears which changes as I move the headphone cable. How can I enjoy music with that?
   
  argh, why don't things just work...
   
  I think I would be better off selling my DAC and getting uDAC instead of adding Bravo to my DAC.
   
  The only think I like about Bravo so far is the looks, I can say nothing about sound because it is constantly interfered with this buzzing and humming. damn!


----------



## Ultrainferno

Don't forget this mini amp is only 50$ shipping included. I agree that it sucks to have a not good working one, but you can't expect much for that price


----------



## ostap

I wouldn't complain if the sound quality was at 50$ level, but thing worked properly. But having 200$ sound which you can't enjoy because of parasite noises coming from power cord, headphone cable and who knows where else from sucks hard.


----------



## allyl

Changed out the MOSFETs and input/output caps today and it really seems to have made quite the difference. Certainly sounds better than one would expect for $50 or so and $15 worth of parts.


----------



## BaudlyDamage

kk so i fixed the massive static wash noise, I'm back to this stupid zip sound every few seconds though. any expertise on this?


----------



## DocBlasto

As much fun as this sounds, I'll probably be buying a Little Dot I+ when I set aside the $100 or so. It has two pretty little tubes sticking out the top, so it looks kinda sexy, and it comes in an opaque metal box, so I'm less likely to start poking at it with a hot iron for no reason at all. Also, I don't think it ships from the factory with serious ground-loop issues. Is this not a good purchase for roughly $110 shipped?


----------



## ostap

Quote: 





baudlydamage said:


> kk so i fixed the massive static wash noise, I'm back to this stupid zip sound every few seconds though. any expertise on this?


 


  How did you manage to do that? I'd love to get rid of mine too


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Quote: 





ostap said:


> How did you manage to do that? I'd love to get rid of mine too


 
   
  At the base of the thing near the headphone jack, they look like little orange screw driver holes (sorry, i fail at part names), there was a piece of solder hanging around. I poked at it with a car key and it came off which scared me at first but then i turned it on and all the terrible static was gone.  if ur not sure what I'm talking about i can prolly take a picture at some point.


----------



## ostap

Quote: 





baudlydamage said:


> At the base of the thing near the headphone jack, they look like little orange screw driver holes (sorry, i fail at part names), there was a piece of solder hanging around. I poked at it with a car key and it came off which scared me at first but then i turned it on and all the terrible static was gone.  if ur not sure what I'm talking about i can prolly take a picture at some point.


 

 Would be great, I wasn't able to find anything that would match your description


----------



## swbf2cheater

well dang now im scared lol, hissing, static and popping?  :[


----------



## Jazzyfi

Your fostex impedance is in the low side.. Do you have any headphones with 100 ohm+ impedance? Try it and I think it will be better.

  
  Quote: 





baudlydamage said:


> kk so i fixed the massive static wash noise, I'm back to this stupid zip sound every few seconds though. any expertise on this?


----------



## lasttodie

Hi guys I was just wondering , is there any easy way to adjust the gain in this little monster? I can't turn mine up to more then 9 o'clock before my headphones becomes distorted.


----------



## Jazzyfi

You can adjust the output resistor. Make it to 100-120 ohm.
  
  Quote: 





lasttodie said:


> Hi guys I was just wondering , is there any easy way to adjust the gain in this little monster? I can't turn mine up to more then 9 o'clock before my headphones becomes distorted.


----------



## lasttodie

Tanx but you see I'm kind of stupid when it comes to this things, anyway you can explain how to do it (pics maybe)


----------



## Jazzyfi

I don't know if you have seen this. The thread is dedicated to Bravo V2 mods.
  
  Quote: 





lasttodie said:


> Tanx but you see I'm kind of stupid when it comes to this things, anyway you can explain how to do it (pics maybe)


----------



## lasttodie

Tanx again
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'll check it out


----------



## BaudlyDamage

Oh hi, that signature is old and i need to update it xD. Ive got dt990's now, 250 ohms. zip is very present.


----------



## ejs811

Anyone want to buy my V2?
  Comes with a bunch of tubes!


----------



## Jazzyfi

I might buy your tube. Which tubes do you have?
  
  Quote: 





ejs811 said:


> Anyone want to buy my V2?
> Comes with a bunch of tubes!


----------



## duheee

Quote: 





ejs811 said:


> Anyone want to buy my V2?
> Comes with a bunch of tubes!


 

 I might be interested in buying some tubes, especially any lower priced ones.
   
  What tubes do you have?


----------



## Megaclocker

If that could help anyone experiencing weird noise or static coming from their amp, mine needs to be cooled after maybe 20mins for listening.  Keeping it cool (near a computer fan) solve the problem.


----------



## swbf2cheater

Can someone tell me where I can get just the power cord for the Bravo audio amp, and maybe a recommendation for a tube to be used for it?


----------



## Gerxld

anyone used these with iems? i want to get them for their novelty factor, so im just curious if they pair well with iems.


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> ...and maybe a recommendation for a tube to be used for it?


 


  Not sure which version you are using [of the amp]. I'm using a Siemens ECC88 A-frame (6 volt tube) [6N11/6DJ8/6922/ECC88, replacement].  This tube is very clear, transparent, detailed and not at all muddy like the 6N11 tubes bundled with the amp.  Not sure where it was made.  The getter is nothing like the other Siemens ECC88s (it is the only ECC88 with an A-Frame I've seen that's not a E88CC).  I'm sure the other getter sounds just as good.


----------



## swbf2cheater

well, i just got a 12au7 tube,  It is a 6n11 replacement, its literally the same tube under a different name so im told.


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> well, i just got a 12au7 tube,  It is a 6n11 replacement, its literally the same tube under a different name so im told.


 

 You must of got an amp with a 6V/12V switch (12AU7 is a 12volt tube and not a direct replacement for a 6N11 [6V tube]).
   
  On American Tube names the first number is the heater voltage.  (6N11 is a chinese name for a tube, I don't know their system but I know it has a 6v heater).


----------



## swbf2cheater

I dont know what version it is, but the research i did resulted in multiple people saying the 6n11 and the 12au7 can be swapped without a problem.  If not, its okay because I only paid like 3 bucks with free shipping for it haha.  Anyway, here is a pic.  It is a dc24 volt, just picked up an adpater for it on ebay.  So, if you think the tubes are not sufficient for it, please let me know what else might be a better option


----------



## Jazzyfi

Thats a 6V version with bias adjusting. Don't use 12V with it.
  
  Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> I dont know what version it is, but the research i did resulted in multiple people saying the 6n11 and the 12au7 can be swapped without a problem.  If not, its okay because I only paid like 3 bucks with free shipping for it haha.  Anyway, here is a pic.  It is a dc24 volt, just picked up an adpater for it on ebay.  So, if you think the tubes are not sufficient for it, please let me know what else might be a better option


----------



## Jazzyfi

Won't work with iem, too much gain, too much interference. This is best with 100+ ohm headphones.
  
  Quote: 





gerxld said:


> anyone used these with iems? i want to get them for their novelty factor, so im just curious if they pair well with iems.


----------



## Jazzyfi

Tube won't matter that much with this amp unmodified. You should first make it better by at least changing the output FETs for better treble, the old FETs rolled the frequency at 10KHz.
  
  Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> Can someone tell me where I can get just the power cord for the Bravo audio amp, and maybe a recommendation for a tube to be used for it?


----------



## swbf2cheater

I am not at all interested in modding it.  All I care about is that it works and sounds decent, being picky is something I'd rather not be when it comes to cheap amps 
  Unless the mod you speak of is very easy, odds are good I wont change anything.


----------



## Jazzyfi

Let the original tube stays, won't give that much difference buying/using expensive tube with unmodified bravo amp.
  
  Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> I am not at all interested in modding it.  All I care about is that it works and sounds decent, being picky is something I'd rather not be when it comes to cheap amps
> Unless the mod you speak of is very easy, odds are good I wont change anything.


----------



## swbf2cheater

My bravo amp was a gift that didnt come with a tube or the power cord, so it was either I pay $30+shipping for a 6n11, or $3.50 for the 12au7 which is the same thing heh


----------



## Jazzyfi

12au7 is not the same as 6n11.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12AU7
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6DJ8
   
  The 12 works with 12V and the 6n11 works with 6V. Your amp is a 6V version, so don't get the 12au7.
  Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> My bravo amp was a gift that didnt come with a tube or the power cord, so it was either I pay $30+shipping for a 6n11, or $3.50 for the 12au7 which is the same thing heh


----------



## Gerxld

thanks for the heads up!


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





jazzyfi said:


> Tube won't matter that much with this amp unmodified. You should first make it better by at least changing the output FETs for better treble, the old FETs rolled the frequency at 10KHz.


 
 
 That's not true.  My amp isn't modified and a better quality tube than the 6N11 make a noticeable difference.  Just because the frequency is rolled off at 10kHz doesn't mean a tube cannot improve the sound and change a bit of the sound signature.  I would recommend changing the tube first as it's a cheap and easy to replace item on the amp.  So what if it rolls off at 10kHz not everyone can hear to 20kHz anyway.


----------



## Jazzyfi

I didn't say it won't matter at all. It will of course make a different but not worth the money. A good 6N11 in my country will cost me 30-40 euro, same price as the amp.
  
  Quote: 





thekisho said:


> That's not true.  My amp isn't modified and a better quality tube than the 6N11 make a noticeable difference.  Just because the frequency is rolled off at 10kHz doesn't mean a tube cannot improve the sound and change a bit of the sound signature.  I would recommend changing the tube first as it's a cheap and easy to replace item on the amp.  So what if it rolls off at 10kHz not everyone can hear to 20kHz anyway.


----------



## TheKisho

Quote: 





jazzyfi said:


> I didn't say it won't matter at all. It will of course make a different but not worth the money. A good 6N11 in my country will cost me 30-40 euro, same price as the amp.


 

 In North America tubes are a lot cheaper.  You can get good ECC88, E88CC, and 6DJ8's for under half the cost of the amp or more (depending on where you look for your tubes, the brand, and where and when they were made by who).  [And stay away from tubes labeled 6N11 on the tube, or Russian equivalents [unless you've done your research] (most are not worth wild (sound wise), and some even have different pinouts)].
   
  If you don't live in Europe or any other place where where you are being overcharged for everything, it's cost effective.
   
   
_*swbf2cheater*_ doesn't have a tube and will require one, might as well make it a quality one.  Early in this thread I think there was lot of talk about good tubes (pre-page 70ish), JAN Sylvania, JAN Philips, Siemens, and a list of others [research where they where made before you buy.  There was a lot of relabeling at that time.  Even if it's a relabeled as one of the above brands (by the above companies but where made somewhere other than the above ones where made it doesn't mean they are bad, just a little different. Quality relabeled tubes still would be better than the Chinese 6N11)].


----------



## swbf2cheater

Would a Raytheon Gray Plate o getter ECC88 be sufficient?


----------



## TheKisho

Not sure how a Raytheon ECC88 sounds.  Never heard anyone who has tried one.  If it's been tested and it's still with in spec and at a good price worth a shot if you feel like it.  Raytheon is a good name.
   
  Personally I'd go for one of these sales:
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Amperex-made-6DJ8-ECC88-Globe-close-match-tubes-/130503757698?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1e62a14f82#ht_500wt_1156
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/6-Amperex-made-6DJ8-ECC88-Globe-close-match-tubes-/220762909490?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item33667eab32#ht_500wt_1156
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/Matched-Quad-Amperex-6DJ8-ECC88-Holland-/320679475461?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4aa9fc7905#ht_500wt_1156
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/Radio-Tubes-6DJ8-ECC88-Sylvania-JAN-/350428185863?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item519725c507#ht_720wt_905
   
http://cgi.ebay.com/3x-SYLVANIA-6922-6DJ8-AUDIO-TUBES-GREEN-LABLE-/290553094056?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43a6505fa8#ht_616wt_1139
   
  Amperex makes some good tubes.  Description of the sound: "Warm, vibrant, lively, grainless, transparent" "large soundstage & with ambience"
   
  I couldn't find the description for the Sylvania sound, but a lot of people would say it's one of the better bang for the buck for 6DJ8's tube at it's price.  You probably can find a description here or elsewhere online.  I think those are the Sylvania JAN (USA).
   
  Those are the only tubes I found for a cheap price that wasn't the German RCA (anyone know what these where before they where rebranded RCA)? At the moment on eBay.


----------



## swbf2cheater

hey thanks for all that info
   
  I did already purchase the Raytheon Ecc88 but if you feel the Amperex is better, odds are strong I'll pick that up as well.  Thankfully they are all relatively cheap heh


----------



## TheKisho

The Sylvania's were one of the ones I was debating when I was picking tubes.  I'm sure the Amperex are as good as people say but I don't like warm sound as much as others do (maybe you do that's why I brought them up.  I other then being warm it's description appeals to me (and maybe you)).  I happened to be the winning bidder of 2 Siemens ECC88's in my tube search and I was happy enough with the sound I didn't get anymore tubes after them.  You can do some tube rolling, to see which one you like the best and sell the rest or maybe you'll find you enjoy the sound of the Raytheon and decide you're happy as is.
   
   
  Yah that's the good thing, there is a good number of good ones for relatively cheap.  Then there is some highly desirable ECC88 tubes that go for $140-$200 (but doesn't take more than $5-$25 to beat the 6N11 that comes with the amp if you go with a good one made in America or Europe).


----------



## swbf2cheater

Yea, i plan to experiment with the cheaper tubes.  I'll pick up the amperex model as well, I very much prefer warm sound so I will definitely try it.


----------



## JahSia

Ok, so I just got my amp and I'm going to break it in in just a few minutes.. I do wonder if I got my tube inserted the correct way, It seems very loose, I'd guess half an inch of the "pins" are showing above the tube socket and some of the pics I've seen on the eBay listing has them almost level to the socket. Is that how they should be?
  Because they take quite alot force to get down lower than this.
   
  Cheers


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





jahsia said:


> Ok, so I just got my amp and I'm going to break it in in just a few minutes.. I do wonder if I got my tube inserted the correct way, It seems very loose, I'd guess half an inch of the "pins" are showing above the tube socket and some of the pics I've seen on the eBay listing has them almost level to the socket. Is that how they should be?
> Because they take quite alot force to get down lower than this.
> 
> Cheers


 
  The tube bottom should be at the tube socket. The pins should not be above the socket. The tube has nine pins with a larger space between pins 1 and 9, which matches up with the same space on the socket. If you have the pins in the holes and it lined up as I mentioned, you should be able to push the tube into place. Do you have an image?


----------



## JahSia

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> The tube bottom should be at the tube socket. The pins should not be above the socket. The tube has nine pins with a larger space between pins 1 and 9, which matches up with the same space on the socket. If you have the pins in the holes and it lined up as I mentioned, you should be able to push the tube into place. Do you have an image?


 

  
  Yup:
   

   
  edit: Definately not right as it will move when I'm moving the amp. Will try to re-seat it once again.
  edit: didn't work too well, just won't go down the whole way, not too sure if any of the pins may be crooked causing this..
   
  edit2: Fixt with a pair o' pliers and it def. helped getting some pressure under it using a better workspace


----------



## dainbranage

Got the little Valve amp a week ago, been listening to it since. In comparison with the little Fiio E5 I have, I prefer the sound of the Fiio E5 but just experimenting and just plonking both of them together sounds great, good enough for me despite the cables everywhere. Love the glow and the burning hot sides, but I had some crackling sound trouble from the amp but after speaking to Bravodeal (the most genuine looking account out of all the ebay ones) they offered to ship another straight away. They have rather good customer service  So with all this loose tube things, I'm sure if you contact them they'll be more than happy to sort it out


----------



## Tacoboy

Anyone have any new modds for their Bravo, Indeed, Muse or other mini tube amp.?


----------



## Bacci

So you did all the documented mods and you still want more? Maybe it's time to scroll down to the DIY section?


----------



## Garage1217

My work informed me a bit ago I would be traveling extensivly for the next few months "have for the past few as well" so I sold off my v2 12au7 version to a member on here. As soon as I sold it, they said I would be mostly based here in the office for the next few months... DOH. So ordered another in lol. Will probably go the exact same route I did before but with a few tweaks. Decided this time I would gut the board, maybe build a new board to support all of the current mods I had performed.. heck I do not know. Spent a wad at mouser today lol


----------



## Bacci

Have you considered the Millett hybrid? Or the Bottlehead Crack?


----------



## Jazzyfi

Did you get a Bravo or Indeed? I would get an Indeed if I need to buy one. Board grounding is really good. Extra layer only for ground.
  
  Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> My work informed me a bit ago I would be traveling extensivly for the next few months "have for the past few as well" so I sold off my v2 12au7 version to a member on here. As soon as I sold it, they said I would be mostly based here in the office for the next few months... DOH. So ordered another in lol. Will probably go the exact same route I did before but with a few tweaks. Decided this time I would gut the board, maybe build a new board to support all of the current mods I had performed.. heck I do not know. Spent a wad at mouser today lol


----------



## Garage1217

I have purchased and have been working with the bravo v2. With mods, it is excellent. I have also used the indeed version and it is very good as well. The bravo just stinks out of the box is all. With some minor mods, it is outstanding for the cash.


----------



## Garage1217

So designing the new board with all mods included for the bravo v2 12au7 version+... Any other mods you guys have enjoyed that you might want to see built into a new board design? I plan / have started to design a board with all mods built in and very nice parts being used. I feel this amp is quite amazing, especially for the price when modified correctly. Everyone I know that has heard one modified correctly loves it so I wanted to build my own version in a kit form for the DIY crowd to easily build and enjoy. The current mods and changes that will be apart of the design will be as follows...
 - 25V 4700uF fake rubycon power supply cap changed to a 4qty of 2200uF 35V Nichicon KT series caps for a total of 8800uF.. May just go to a 3qty for 6600uF which is plenty
 - RCA jacks removed / only 1/8 jack input?? just a thought at this stage or maybe just have rca's instead? No need for both IMO as it clutters the board. Also re-route the input to the back of the board for a cleaner look
 - Crosstalk mod built in / circuitry re-routed
 - Input signal capacitors eliminated rather than removed and jumpered
 - Blue LED turned WAY down brightness wise with a 10K resistor + 100uF 10V cap added for soft start
 - 25 turn 10K 1/2w bourns bias pots for precision bias adjustment. Along with easy to access points to check and change bias
 - Output signal capacitors changed to Nichicon 2200uF KT series caps
 - Larger heatsinks for both 530's and 317's / slightly larger more open board design
 - IRF630's changed to IRL530's for massive extension of the top end / rather than cutting falling off at 10K
 - LT317's changed to Linear technologies LT317A's which are of better quality
 - All resistors will be 1% Vishay / dale mil spec units
 - Power switch located on the top lid portion of a custom laser cut acrylic chassis (similar to the current design)but with a quality switch
 - Improved symmetrical board layout / I would like to add an artistic touch to the look and layout without sacrificing functionality
 - Debating on just having solder points for the potentiometer as I am not a fan of the stock alps unit... so one could choose what style they want. Same with the 1/4" jack... The stock unit is not bad and common so could leave it on the board. Still debating with myself on it.
 Thoughts? I just really dig this little amp when modded and it deserves to be done right.


----------



## Jazzyfi

Try panasonic low esr for the output caps. I like it better than nichicon.
  And you might want to try IRL510 instead of 530 to extend the bandwidth even more.
  Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> So designing the new board with all mods included for the bravo v2 12au7 version+... Any other mods you guys have enjoyed that you might want to see built into a new board design? I plan / have started to design a board with all mods built in and very nice parts being used. I feel this amp is quite amazing, especially for the price when modified correctly. Everyone I know that has heard one modified correctly loves it so I wanted to build my own version in a kit form for the DIY crowd to easily build and enjoy. The current mods and changes that will be apart of the design will be as follows...
> - 25V 4700uF fake rubycon power supply cap changed to a 4qty of 2200uF 35V Nichicon KT series caps for a total of 8800uF.. May just go to a 3qty for 6600uF which is plenty
> - RCA jacks removed / only 1/8 jack input?? just a thought at this stage or maybe just have rca's instead? No need for both IMO as it clutters the board. Also re-route the input to the back of the board for a cleaner look
> - Crosstalk mod built in / circuitry re-routed
> ...


----------



## Garage1217

Thanks for the input  However on the Nichicons, those are my personal preference and are considered a low esr cap, that and they are 105C rated and built for audio specifically according to Nichicon. Going for the long haul with these babies  Do you have a spec sheet on the ESR of a panny say 2200uF at 105C showing lower ESR than an equal KT sereis Nichicon? I do not doubt any claims, Just always like to research. http://products.nichicon.co.jp/en/pdf/XJA043/e-kt.pdf
   
   
  On the 510's, yes they are able to extend to 60khz, however I am just fine with the 530's clean extension to 30khz. Either are excellent choices. Sonically however, some have preferred the 530 saying it has a more full and open sound which is TOTALLY subjective to the listener, time of day, barometric pressure... sunspots, fingernail growth and what he ate for breakfast lol.. I doubt anyone could ever tell the difference between the two, but yes a 510 is an equally good choice and extension is technically better so will keep it in mind.


----------



## Bacci

I liked the way the plexiglass looked but in the end the RF interference was just too horrible, esp. from my phone.
  You could dimension the PCB to fit a popular case, e.g. one of the Hammonds.
  The tube could go on top of the case protected by valve guard, here's how that looks on my G2-in-a-case:
   

   
  Also, the gain on these amps is way too high resulting in too much background noise, I would certainly lower it.


----------



## Garage1217

Very nice. Basing the board on a standard 4x6" I never had any RF issues but I understand others have so definitely something to consider. Just finished the board layout a few minutes ago. Now have to walk away for a bit and come back and take a close look again and tweak things. Then have to get it to someone that is an expert with board design so I can have them produced rather than what I use for DIY boards.


----------



## Garage1217

Wow... I cannot even count how many hours I have wrapped up with the new design lol. Have been working extensively with one heck of an audio engineer "solderdude" over on the grotto. I have been very impressed, the guy knows his stuff for sure. The new design is light years beyond the indeed and bravo style designs. The design is mainly solderdudes with my board layout. He has re-designed the indeed / bravo / muse amps to the point they cannot even be compared measurement wise. Very impressive specifications now. Cannot wait to show you guys! I will have to talk to admin on here as I plan to setup a group buy but do not know the rules of this forum yet. Plan to offer it in multiple styles from a bare board, main components, cap and tube choices and so forth. Also the new design is quite tweak-able with precision bias setting, supports 6v and 12v tube rolling, dedicated heater power supply section, output grounding / timed relay to eliminate turn on and off pop and more.... All major caps from input, output to PS support 2.5 / 5 and 7.5ish sizes so you can tune how you want. Overall I am SUPER excited about this. Still a ways out but it is coming!


----------



## aroldan

I'll be really interested. I find my modded Bravo V2 to be more enjoyable than the amp part of my Audio GD FUN. Those little things have great potential with higher quality parts and some design upgrades.
   
  Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> Wow... I cannot even count how many hours I have wrapped up with the new design lol. Have been working extensively with one heck of an audio engineer "solderdude" over on the grotto. I have been very impressed, the guy knows his stuff for sure. The new design is light years beyond the indeed and bravo style designs. The design is mainly solderdudes with my board layout. He has re-designed the indeed / bravo / muse amps to the point they cannot even be compared measurement wise. Very impressive specifications now. Cannot wait to show you guys! I will have to talk to admin on here as I plan to setup a group buy but do not know the rules of this forum yet. Plan to offer it in multiple styles from a bare board, main components, cap and tube choices and so forth. Also the new design is quite tweak-able with precision bias setting, supports 6v and 12v tube rolling, dedicated heater power supply section, output grounding / timed relay to eliminate turn on and off pop and more.... All major caps from input, output to PS support 2.5 / 5 and 7.5ish sizes so you can tune how you want. Overall I am SUPER excited about this. Still a ways out but it is coming!


----------



## kastle

Make that 2. I have Garage's modded Bravo and it's killer. I'd love to get one of his new creations in a heartbeat.
  
  Quote: 





aroldan said:


> I'll be really interested. I find my modded Bravo V2 to be more enjoyable than the amp part of my Audio GD FUN. Those little things have great potential with higher quality parts and some design upgrades.


----------



## 129207

Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> Wow... I cannot even count how many hours I have wrapped up with the new design lol. Have been working extensively with one heck of an audio engineer "solderdude" over on the grotto. I have been very impressed, the guy knows his stuff for sure. The new design is light years beyond the indeed and bravo style designs. The design is mainly solderdudes with my board layout. He has re-designed the indeed / bravo / muse amps to the point they cannot even be compared measurement wise. Very impressive specifications now. Cannot wait to show you guys! I will have to talk to admin on here as I plan to setup a group buy but do not know the rules of this forum yet. Plan to offer it in multiple styles from a bare board, main components, cap and tube choices and so forth. Also the new design is quite tweak-able with precision bias setting, supports 6v and 12v tube rolling, dedicated heater power supply section, output grounding / timed relay to eliminate turn on and off pop and more.... All major caps from input, output to PS support 2.5 / 5 and 7.5ish sizes so you can tune how you want. Overall I am SUPER excited about this. Still a ways out but it is coming!


 
   
  I am definitely interested in this since I just blew up my Bravo V2 again. I have such a hard time soldering the IRF's on that mega crappy pcb. The copper keeps coming loose. crappy QC right there.


----------



## Garage1217

del


----------



## kastle

Quote: 





garage1217 said:


> Also Kastle, I need to get that amp back. I want to make some more changes to it / no cost to you. You will dig it even more


 


  PM sent


----------



## fx101

Unrelated question... a week after using this amp (the Bravo V2 12AU7) with the stock chinese tube, it won't work anymore. The red light for power is on, and the blue light under the tube is on. But there is no tube glow whatsoever (while normally you see two filaments glow when it's working). If headphones are plugged in, I hear a crackle when it turns on and off... but no sound whatsoever otherwise. Could it be my tube is a dud?


----------



## Garage1217

Try a tube first... Would be my first guess with what you are describing.


----------



## Garage1217

Had to edit, not a sponsor.


----------



## kastle

PM sent


----------



## 129207

Garage, can't wait to see the first photos of your modified Bravo! Can't wait to own one too, if they're as good as you're saying.


----------



## serenith

I read through most of the thread, but I might have missed it.
   
  There's plenty of warning about lifting traces, but not enough advices for people with little experience:  How do you avoid lifting traces ? Lower the iron heat ?


----------



## Garage1217

Use a solder sucker for one and make sure each pin is loose before removing the component. I know it sounds easy when I say it as I have years of soldering experience overall.... but mods can be tedious for a person that is a newcomer to the ways of the iron lol One thing that helps if you are new to soldering, find some old POS electronic device with through hole components and start removing them / re-soldering them over and over


----------



## justhandguns

The Brave's PCB is so fragile, even for experienced soldering people. You probably can cirumvent this by using the cut leads from resistors or caps, bypass the lifted or broken trace.
   
  I was so impatient to replace the caps, so I kind of lifted the copper and destroyed it. So I just make use of a wire foot from a resistor to bypass it to the FET. I put a piece of shink wrap on it to avoid short circuiting.


----------



## nanaud

Hi everyone,
   
  I'm a newbie here, so having newbies' questions ; maybe already been discussed thru the 107 pages ...?
  So, got this MHHA, mine is a copy of this just acceptable amp (like Bravo/Indeed/Muse ...).
   
  Sure everyone here started the same tweaks, changing those VERY BAD parts :
  1. chinese 6N11 tube >> RCA made ECC88, waiting for a NOS Sylvania made 6DJ8
  2. under rated / low cost power caps >> Panasonic/Elna 35/50V ones + bypass caps (if not)
  3. standard IRF630 MosFETs >> more 'musical' IRL510 ones (or IRL530 or 2SK310 ...)
  4. standard Elna RJJ output caps >> 'dedicated for audio' ones
      (mine are NOS Elna like ROA/RW5 miniaturized, 105°C, bypassed w/ ERO/Vishay MKP1837 22nF)
  5. output Dale metal layer resistors >> Welwyn wirewound 47R
  6. input ground resistor 8,2K >> 91K 1/2W
  + also have to change the input resistor (!!!) to a Cap (obviously) : NOS Sprague 150nF 100V will fit
  + the mediocre potentiometer (to small ALPS RK09)
   
  So ... my question is : since I changed the MosFET, the IRL and the LM317 became hot, I mean VERY HOOOT !
  Is it something I could fix or did I make something wrong ? I changed to massive heatsinks, still hot (maybe > 40°C).
   
  I checked and ajusted the bias, but : I can read 13,5V here, or 15V there, dunno what value's the best ...
  (but my sh## was initially set to ~10V @ R and 6V @ L !... did I say BAD ?)
  My power supply is 19V, not 24V (I'm in France, EU, and the stuff came from China with a plug only for UK I guess) ; I have a 24V tomorrow.
   
  Whatever if I can fix that or not, these little mods really worth to switch on the iron !! Now closer to an audiophile product.


----------



## attenuated 3db

You might have better luck cut-and-pasting your question into this site:
   
   
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=b
   
  You could drown in the DIY detail lavished on the Bravo/Indeed/Muse amplifiers.


----------



## Garage1217

Hello...
  - 40C is not hot at all for an lm317 or irl510. Heck we get well over 40C ambient here in the desert of Az hahaha! The 317 is rated to 170C and the 510 to 120C which is HOT. In general a bravo v2 will run around 55C on stock sinks or up to 60-65C with the acrylic top on. For your mods, in general around 13.5 is a good choice and what I tune my builds to. Get that 24V power supply in and stick with it 
  
  Quote: 





nanaud said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm a newbie here, so having newbies' questions ; maybe already been discussed thru the 107 pages ...?
> So, got this MHHA, mine is a copy of this just acceptable amp (like Bravo/Indeed/Muse ...).
> ...


----------



## suhaybh

I am planning on purchasing one of these amps soon to pair with a closed pair of DT880/600 (personal preference mod). I am confused as to which model I should get though because his store lists 5 products, of which one is a pair of tubes and another product is meant to be used as a guitar amp. What are the differences between the other three remaining amps? I know the V3 has equalizers but I am unsure if I would use that feature. But the V2 and the other amp look identical but use different tubes I think. Really looking for differences in sound quality. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## JamesMcProgger

New to this amp, im using 12AU7, which would be a good option(s) to roll the tube?


----------



## 129207

Quote: 





suhaybh said:


> I am planning on purchasing one of these amps soon to pair with a closed pair of DT880/600 (personal preference mod). I am confused as to which model I should get though because his store lists 5 products, of which one is a pair of tubes and another product is meant to be used as a guitar amp. What are the differences between the other three remaining amps? I know the V3 has equalizers but I am unsure if I would use that feature. But the V2 and the other amp look identical but use different tubes I think. Really looking for differences in sound quality. Any help would be appreciated.


 


  The Indeed MK2 12AU7 is the best option at the moment. It's easier to mod and has a better build quality compared to the Bravo's. Check Rockgrotto forums for everything you ever wanted to know about these amps. Mind though, that these amps are pretty underwhelming at first. They're hissy, hot and don't sound particularly good. Modding them is the way to go if you want to do your DT880 right.  For example, my Bravo V2 12AU7 has exploded twice on me already. I'm still procrastinating fixing it again.


----------



## suhaybh

I am really looking for an amp that I wouldn't need to mod because I don't have a lot of spare time and I have never used a soldering iron before. If I am going to buy an amp my two requirements would be as little background noise as possible when listening with headphones and that the amp operates so that it doesn't get too hot. I would prefer the amps be on the smaller side and of course less than $100. Am I asking for to much or are there any amps that can lend themselves to these requests?


----------



## Jazzyfi

Yes, you are asking too much. No amps under 100$ match your needs. Otherwise there people won't be busy tinkering this little wonder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## attenuated 3db

All of the Bravo/Indeed/Muse amplifiers get hot, but the heatsinks and open design radiate the heat effectively for the most part.  So "too hot" is one of those "Goldilocks" phrases; what does it really mean in context?  They are all small.  Under $100 with no DIY mods, the Indeed G2 seems to be the consensus pick among the variants of this basic design, but something new has emerged from the huge DIY modification culture: a new amplifier (available as parts, a full kit or assembled) which incorporates most of the proven mods for the Bravo/Indeed into the design from the start.  Here is the Rock Grotto thread on the Project Sunrise amp:
   
   
   
   
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m&action=display&thread=6765&page=1


----------



## Jazzyfi

Hey Jeremy, great job.


----------



## nanaud

Thanks folks for advices !
   
  Trully, mine became "hot" when I changed the Mosfet, maybe it changed from ambient temp. +5°C to +25°C approx. ; even if I changed heatsinks from ~16°C/W to ~8°C/W...
  But I see here I should "relativize" what's *warm* and what's *hot* 
   
  I dunno for all of you, but in the same time, I'm starting this same kind of project from scratch : 
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/402067/a-super-simple-6dj8-headphone-amp/345#post_7456489
   
  on a brand new and clear PCB (70% larger) found on :
  http://www.8audio-mall.com/servlet/the-353/6DJ8-Single-End-Tube/Detail
   
  Maybe a time for "benchmark" will come soon after.


----------



## attenuated 3db

I just got my Indeed Mk.2 (meant to order a "G2" but was not alert when I clicked the eBay "Buy Now" button) today, and am generally impressed.  It has been awhile since I had to let my Maverick A1 with its factory-matched pair of Raytheon 6AK5s go, effectively going without a head amp for a couple of months, so I can't do any direct comparison, but the Indeed seems to lack the dynamics (especially at the ends of the frequency spectrum) of the Maverick, but that's the difference between a $60 and $240 amp, especially in terms of power supply-imposed limitations.  One thing that I am struck with is that the Indeed Mk.2 runs a lot cooler than I anticipated.  I don't want to leave my finger on a MOSFET heatsink any longer than I have to, but the plexiglass top is cool to the touch.  I was preparing for a potential fire hazard given some of the heat stories I've read, but not so.  Nice product, well-packed that arrived very quickly (11 days from China to US).  I'd still advise others to get a Indeed G2 if they're in the market for an Indeed amp.


----------



## haz101

I'm very curious to what the 680uf bias caps actually do.
  I have a V2 bravo and just bypassed the 1uf Rubycons with 2.2uf Wima ones to hear what different it would make, it changed the bass some what.


----------



## duheee

Hello again,
   
  I just bought many of the parts for the mods to this amp from mouser and now have a few more questions (sorry, kind of a noob here).
  First, how do I measure the bias on the trim pots so that I can adjust it accordingly?
  Second, how do I cut the traces for the crosstalk improvement mod? Do I just use an X-acto knife, and then solder onto the already existing joint? Also, will any wire work for it?
   
  Thanks,
  Duheee


----------



## attenuated 3db

There are quite a few variants of the Bravo/Indeed/Muse amps. If you just want direction on adjusting bias, this link on rock grotto is a good guide. There is much more DIY info on that website, including links to downloadable PDF files that take you through all of the mods with pictures and diagrams.


----------



## duheee

I can't seem to find the guides for the mods. Could you direct me to where they are?
   
  Thanks,
  Duheee


----------



## nanaud

A nice file with 7 pages of explained mods :
   
  http://www.mediafire.com/?8hqhan3l9xtvvsq


----------



## fdhfdy

nice looking.


----------



## real128

Found something interesting with my Muse amp, the solder joints connecting L&R in cracked, re-soldered it and works great.  The sound is fantastic with my Tesla tube now.


----------



## PanamaRed

Just received my G2 with the IR510 mofset today. I am really shocked at the sound quality this little guy puts out.
   
  I am using the stock tube, playing from a cowon x7, and powering a pair of Grado 325i.
   
  I can't wait to roll some tubes in here. Either tonight or tomorrow i'll do a comparison with the G2 vs the Grado RA-1.


----------



## trazom

Hello everyone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




,
  First, please excuse me for my modest mastery in English, I am French. This is my first post here but I read this forum since very long time.
 Here the object of my post: I bought an amplifier Muse MK2 on Ebay. It worked perfectly for a few days and suddenly the red and blue  led have ceased to function.
  Since I have a big breath and crackling noise in my headphones and lamp replacement did not solvemy problem.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Would you which may have caused this failure and how to solve? Thank you.


----------



## nanaud

Hi trazom,
   
  Changing your tube won't generally solve anything, unless you were using a dead tube or not designed for ...
  Did you check that the bias did not change ?
   
  Maybe the problem comes from a single resistor, it may have burn or it's unsoldered.
  Could you send macro photos of your amp, around the red led, top/bottom ?


----------



## nanaud

@trazom
   
  BTW, what is the original tube ?
  With which part did you replace it ?


----------



## trazom

The problem is that everything seems normal. With the original tube or other pops are still present.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 No transistor seems burnt. I'll take some pictures tomorrow.
  Thank you for your help.


----------



## fiesta

Is the nice looking tube amp worth to buy?


----------



## zest

Quote: 





trazom said:


> The problem is that everything seems normal. With the original tube or other pops are still present.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm not good in electronics, I know the blue LED is only for esthetics, but the red one is pretty important for creating some reference voltage. Too me a LED is dead  or there's some bad soldering on them.


----------



## ostap

Hello, I'm using Bravo V2 (unmodded) with my Shure 240 (38 ohm) and am getting lot of parasite noises. I've basically given up trying to fix the amp to stop producing the sounds (it picks EMI from the air, I also suspect power supply to give humm). So I'm thinking of replacing my headphones with ones with higher impedance to 'filter out' the noises.
  Currently my volume knob is turned just little above nothing, because the headphones are so sensitive. When I turn the volume knob up (with no music playing) the noises remain the same.
   
  So will replacing my 38ohm headphones with some 60-100ohm help to hide the noises? (I will need to turn the volume knob up to achieve the same sound volume), or am I thinking just wrong and have failed from basics of electronics?


----------



## justhandguns

The humming interference and/or static noices may also come from bad soldering contacts.
  This happens quite often when you have some oxidation at the pins of your tube/valve. You may
  want to have a check at that as well.
  
  Quote: 





ostap said:


> Hello, I'm using Bravo V2 (unmodded) with my Shure 240 (38 ohm) and am getting lot of parasite noises. I've basically given up trying to fix the amp to stop producing the sounds (it picks EMI from the air, I also suspect power supply to give humm). So I'm thinking of replacing my headphones with ones with higher impedance to 'filter out' the noises.
> Currently my volume knob is turned just little above nothing, because the headphones are so sensitive. When I turn the volume knob up (with no music playing) the noises remain the same.
> 
> So will replacing my 38ohm headphones with some 60-100ohm help to hide the noises? (I will need to turn the volume knob up to achieve the same sound volume), or am I thinking just wrong and have failed from basics of electronics?


----------



## nanaud

Quote: 





trazom said:


> The problem is that everything seems normal. With the original tube or other pops are still present.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Hi again Trazom,
   
  I have some news ...
  I built a brand new headphone amp, like Bravo/Indeed/Muse (on a pcb, I chose every component) and I had a problem ...
  Apparently, the MOS-FETs are VERY sensitive to electrostatics, because of the FE (field effect transistors), so you should NEVER touch it by the pins, only by the body.
   
  I lost 1 then 2 IRL MOS-FETs, so I changed them with 2 IRF 510, kept really care.
  Now, with a Sylvania tube, it's a pure sunshine !
   
  So, even if the d'ont seem "burnt" maybe your FETs are dead
  - check the IRL/IRF (forget the bad IRF 630 or 730/740 ... use only IRL 510/530 or IRF 510/512, but other could perfectly match ...)
  - and, depending on your small TO-92 transistor *
  * (I use 2SK117, audio N-FETs ; but if you use something like 2N3906, it' less critical)
   

 By the wan, I tested :
  - 6N11 china tube (1$ piece) very microphonics (like ugly ampli-op), maybe the worse tubes but still OK for the price (a test tube ?)
  - 6DJ8/ECC88 RCA/Matsu****a (4~10$) : they are much better, very deep basses, clear sound, never tiring
  - 6DJ8/ECC88 GE/Sylvania (paid 1$ on eBay, but 6~15$) : less lower basses, but very large presence, very clear
   
  I'd like to find a 6922 EH, some say the russian 6N23P-EV are better, less microphoonics (for lower price).
   
  Comments on tube tests are welcome


----------



## Wadadly Cooler

I bought one of these about a year ago from ebay.
  The power supply is useless, giving a constant mains hum through the audio.  I substituted it for a decent one I had in my shed.
  The sound quality seams pretty good, although the base is noticably clipped.
  On balance, I think would not recommend this amp.  I think spending a bit more would be prudent.


----------



## donunus

Is there an official Bravo Store link? I want to make sure to get the right one if ever I do get one.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





donunus said:


> Is there an official Bravo Store link? I want to make sure to get the right one if ever I do get one.


 


  This is the official Bravo seller: http://stores.ebay.com/bravoaudio
  But you might wanna go for an Indeed G2


----------



## donunus

Is it already documented what the main differences in sound are? what about reliability? I could only read about 20 pages and didn't find clear answers


----------



## real128

Is there anything else very near it that is turned on?
   
  Quote: 





ostap said:


> Hello, I'm using Bravo V2 (unmodded) with my Shure 240 (38 ohm) and am getting lot of parasite noises. I've basically given up trying to fix the amp to stop producing the sounds (it picks EMI from the air, I also suspect power supply to give humm). So I'm thinking of replacing my headphones with ones with higher impedance to 'filter out' the noises.
> Currently my volume knob is turned just little above nothing, because the headphones are so sensitive. When I turn the volume knob up (with no music playing) the noises remain the same.
> 
> So will replacing my 38ohm headphones with some 60-100ohm help to hide the noises? (I will need to turn the volume knob up to achieve the same sound volume), or am I thinking just wrong and have failed from basics of electronics?


----------



## ostap

yes, it was there even with no other devices turned on or plugged in. However, meanwhile I have moved to another town and the high EMI sounds are gone. So I suspect there was some GSM transmitter on the roof of the building or something. I had big troubles with that, not even putting the amp into metal box (for shielding) did not help. But now it's gone, all that remains is the power supply's humm.


----------



## thecos00

I have a biasing question.  I tried adjusting the bias to get to 16v but is impossible to do. When I adjust one side's bias voltage, the other side's voltage goes the opposite way. They seem to be not independent of each other. The best I could do to get them about the same voltage was at 12v. Will that be fine? Is it a tube problem?


----------



## Garage1217

16V is to high, target 13.5V


----------



## thecos00

Thank you very much for the quick reply.  I was only able to get to 12.5 with both channels about the same.  If I go to 13.5 on one channel, the other channel only goes to about 11.5-12v.  Increasing one channel decreases the other, so that to get both about the same, I had to settle for 12.5.  Will this do?


----------



## moltam99

Hi!
  I have a slight problem. I hear "buzz" from the amp when I turn the volume knob just over 11 o'lock. This happens as well when I unplug the interconnect cable, so that can't cause this.
  The tube is an Electro Harmonix one.
  The wierd thing is, when I touch the metal jack plug of my headphone, the buzz stops. It also stops when I squeze one of the two metal poles in the front. (the ones that hold the "case" together) It sounds like a grounding problem to me. I am not really an expert on electronics, so please tell me what to do! Thanks
   
  Update: Just out of curiosity, I plugged a noname microphone to the 3,5 jack in, and the buzz is gone. Obviously, I can't listen to music like this, but it might help to determine the problem.


----------



## kmkamk

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400234743462&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT 
   
  Are these worth bidding for?


----------



## Ultrainferno

They don't seem new to me and the pins look bent...
  Look for some RCA 12AU7 CONN clear tops like these: http://cgi.ebay.com/RCA-12AU7A-CLEAR-TOP-PAIR-ECC82-CONN-TEST-NOS-/330601519011?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4cf962d7a3


----------



## Tacoboy

Need to replace the AC/DC adapter to my Indeed 6922EH tube amp.
   
  Model # SDK-0609
  specs
  Input 100-240VAC, 50-60Hz 1.8A
  Output DC 24V -2A MAX
   
  Any idea on who would stock this (U.S.A.) or
  what other products might use this AC/DC adapter? (to narrow the search)


----------



## geetarman49

garage1217 sells a nice p.s. for the indeed/bravo/sunrise project.
  http://store.garage1217.com/diyhisuki.html
   
  jeremy also has a nice upgrade kit for the indeed/bravo as well as the much superior *project sunrise* either in kit or assembled form.


----------



## twiztedjoker

I was looking to buy one of these for fun the other day, so if it's possible can someone comment on how the bravo v2 tube amp will measure up against these:

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260795094655&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

or these?

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250882756656&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I have no knowledge in circuitry and the likes so they all pretty much look the same to me...


----------



## MusicTurtle

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bravo-Ocean-Valve-Class-Tube-Headphone-Amplifier-pre-/260861230146?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbc8a7c42
   
  Has anyone seen this one? It looks a bit more appealing as it's enclosed and to be honest isn't a bad looking amp minus the fact that I'm not sure how you change the tube.


----------



## weissglut

Did anybody already test this one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/6N11-Amplifier-Pro-Hi-Fi-Class-A-Tube-Headphone-AMP-Earpiece-Audio-Red-Demon-NIB-/320775316425?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item4aafb2e3c9#ht_4870wt_1398
   
  It's labeled XY Hi-Fi 1.0 but I cannot find any infos in the web. I like the fact that all inputs are on the back while headphone jacks and power switch are on the front.


----------



## weissglut

And another one sold as DIY kit:
  http://nixiekits.eu/MiniHeadphoneAmp.htm
   
  There are some measurements shown, that compare the Mr. Nixie to the Indeed.


----------



## djmattm

Wow three times more expensive than a normal Indeed / Bravo, and the differences measured are the same as the indeed / bravo modded with decent caps 

Inviato dal mio HTC Hero usando Tapatalk


----------



## weissglut

Quote: 





weissglut said:


> Did anybody already test this one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/6N11-Amplifier-Pro-Hi-Fi-Class-A-Tube-Headphone-AMP-Earpiece-Audio-Red-Demon-NIB-/320775316425?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item4aafb2e3c9#ht_4870wt_1398
> 
> It's labeled XY Hi-Fi 1.0 but I cannot find any infos in the web. I like the fact that all inputs are on the back while headphone jacks and power switch are on the front.


 


  The info I've found myself now: http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=m&thread=5297&page=5#94290


----------



## Bigcanman

In the same boat as some of you people. Looking at one of these cheap amps as a first amp but on the fence about quality as I have been reading of several of them passing away rather quickly. How have they faired for you folks?


----------



## santrully

love this headphone amp and i just  mode my bravo audio and iam more like it


----------



## santrully

my bravo pic mode


----------



## WarriorSl

Hey so I can upgrade my stock tubes with any EF95 family tube? Like the voshkod? http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Voshkod-6ZH1P-EV-Matched-Pair-Little-Dot-Amp-III-IV-/290613497027?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43a9ea0cc3#ht_1772wt_701


----------



## moltam99

The bravo's gain is way too high for the Shure840's don't you think?


----------



## cheaphifi

Quote: 





warriorsl said:


> Hey so I can upgrade my stock tubes with any EF95 family tube? Like the voshkod? http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Voshkod-6ZH1P-EV-Matched-Pair-Little-Dot-Amp-III-IV-/290613497027?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43a9ea0cc3#ht_1772wt_701


 


  No way !!!


----------



## BonOeil

Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> No way !!!


 


  Why ?
   
  Anyway, I just bought a Bravo Tube Amplifier V2 and I would like to have best tube on it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Is this good ?
   
http://cgi.ebay.fr/2-Vintage-RCA-12AU7-A-Clear-Top-Test-NOS-1966-/250930355641?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a6c9d5db9#ht_500wt_1174
   
  Thank you !


----------



## Ultrainferno

Those are excellent!


----------



## daj58

Is there any modification needed...or is this just plug & play?

  
  Quote: 





bonoeil said:


> Why ?
> 
> Anyway, I just bought a Bravo Tube Amplifier V2 and I would like to have best tube on it
> 
> ...


----------



## daj58

I haven;t a clue what I am doing!!
  I have this little Bravo amp and I have bought a JAN Philips NOS Low Noise 6922 6DJ8 ECC88
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370381963960?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
  It doesn't work...I haven;t a clue why not!!


----------



## BonOeil

Because this tube works at 6V not 12V like the Bravo.


----------



## daj58

I have
  Quote: 





bonoeil said:


> Because this tube works at 6V not 12V like the Bravo.


 


  Yes!! Thanks for that...I was trawling through this thread a while age, and the Phillips 6922 6DJ8 ECC88 was recommended!! I must have read it wrong.
   I have since been looking at the  12au7 range and there are different manufacturers with different characteristics!
  I have bought the recommended RCA 12AU7 A - Clear Top...also I am looking at a  MULLARD ECC82 12AU7  and the SYLVANIA 12AU7.
  The set up I have is a Sony Discman D25 to the Bravo audio amp listening through a pair of V-sonic GR7 in ear headphones!


----------



## cheaphifi

Quote: 





bonoeil said:


> Why ?
> 
> Anyway, I just bought a Bravo Tube Amplifier V2 and I would like to have best tube on it
> 
> ...


 

 no way because EF95 and 6AK5, 6Z1P are 7 pins valves, you need 9 pins valve to use it on Bravo, Indeed, Project Sunrise, etc...
   
  And yes 12AU7 cleartop are stated to be excellent valves for amps, IMO the best valves for this kind of amp are ECC86, 6N27p, etc... valves specifically designed for low-voltage audio use..


----------



## mackinthebox

Hi all
  I just bid on a pair of Pioneer SE-50 cans, theyre low impedance at 8ohms
  I was wondering if anyone has tried this amp with low impedance headphones?
  what could I expect if I hooked them up to this amp?
   
   
  Thanks!
   
  now im off to read the rest of this thread...


----------



## localmotion411

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 Love this


----------



## Ultrainferno

http://bravoaudio.com/index.html


----------



## Headzone

nvm.


----------



## Jojomite

saw the bravo audio amp in jaben the other day, didn't look like much so i didn't give it a try><


----------



## aedaza

Hi everyone,
   
  I received as a gift recently the Shure SRH240 headphones. I know they are simply good, and maybe not even mid tier phones, but hey, I am enjoying them a lot!
   
  I have been in the past a lot into tube amps, TTs and LPs, so I am kind of new into the headphones world.
   
  Can I use the Indeed G2 with the SRH240's? They are low impedance, so I dont know how that would work.
   
  Or maybe I should simply wait and buy one of those Fiio products?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## donunus

I was just wondering if the v2 is exactly like the slightly more expensive "ocean" except for the casing.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





aedaza said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I received as a gift recently the Shure SRH240 headphones. I know they are simply good, and maybe not even mid tier phones, but hey, I am enjoying them a lot!
> 
> ...


 
  I'm be better to go solid state.
  
   


  Quote: 





donunus said:


> I was just wondering if the v2 is exactly like the slightly more expensive "ocean" except for the casing.


 

 I would like to see the inside of the Bravo Ocean.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





aedaza said:


> Hi everyone,
> I received as a gift recently the Shure SRH240 headphones. I know they are simply good, and maybe not even mid tier phones, but hey, I am enjoying them a lot!
> I have been in the past a lot into tube amps, TTs and LPs, so I am kind of new into the headphones world.
> Can I use the Indeed G2 with the SRH240's? They are low impedance, so I dont know how that would work.
> Or maybe I should simply wait and buy one of those Fiio products?


 

 I'm going to "guess" solid state would be a better choice.
   
  Also check the forum threads at the Rockgrotto website, they have threads dedicated to these tube amps.


----------



## Garage1217

The G2 is a better amp stock for stock than the V2 bravo or ocean. And 38ohm is on the limit for the g2 but it will power them fine. Still needs modding though to be a decent amp.


----------



## seven11

hi guys,
   
  how do these (indeed g3 in particular) compare to a LD MKIII or a dared mp5?
  been looking for a small-ish tube amp recently.
   
  thanks!


----------



## Hykr3n

Hi guys, I just just received my V2 today with a 17AU7 tube and I was wondering if i can swap the tube to get a thicker bass and a warmer sound.
   
  Thx 
  Hyy


----------



## Faithless

Yes... And it's a *big must do*.
  The stock chinese tubes are too bad.
  There's  a lot of good options and prices for 12AU7 and 12AU7A tubes.
  Just look Ebay's lists for exemple.
  Read this small guides:
  http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ta/nostubes_e.html
  http://hktubeaudio.homestead.com/files/Best_of_the_Best_12AU7.htm


----------



## Sentry

I see the Bravo Ocean has pre amp outs on it. Just curious can you feed a cd player into it and run it directly into the cd input on your receiver? I want to add a little tube warmth to the sound without adding too much distortion.


----------



## Nightelf

I am going to buy some cheap tube amp.
   
  Better go with Bravo Audio Ocean, or Little Dot I?
   
  It will be use with HD598 and DT990.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





hykr3n said:


> Hi guys, I just just received my V2 today with a 17AU7 tube and I was wondering if i can swap the tube to get a thicker bass and a warmer sound.
> 
> Thx
> Hyy


 
   
  Yes you can do tube rolling with the Bravo, I find clear top RCA's to provide a bit warmth to the bass spectrum. Mullards and Sylvania's are your best choice of branded tubes to obtain that thicker bass and warmer sound, Mullards will have a sparkly high end. If you want one of the best tubes that the Bravo can accomodate that is still in production will be the Sophia Electric Grade A 12AU7 tube, I have one and the sound is phenomenal, its like the best of all worlds of Mullards, Sylvania and RCA added together.
   
  Quote: 





faithless said:


> Yes... And it's a *big must do*.
> The stock chinese tubes are too bad.


 
   
  To be honest, the stock tube isn't that bad, it is bit rolled off with the mids and high's once you have more complex tracks playing from your favourite vocal album with a bass hump. For a $50 tube amp with a huge potential to be a killer when its modded (follow threads at RockGrotto) you can't expect a budget tube amp to come with $20-100 branded NOS tubes can you? Then it will be a totally different priced little unit. So your statement there is a bit too off point.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





nightelf said:


> I am going to buy some cheap tube amp.
> 
> Better go with Bravo Audio Ocean, or Little Dot I?
> 
> It will be use with HD598 and DT990.


 
   
  Skip both and go for the Little Dot MK2 minimum recommended as I've had the experience with pairing different amp's in general with the DT990 and HD558 (similar to the 598) when it was in my possession. The LD1 is muddy and rolled off, and performance for money, my Bravo v2 modded tube amp best's the LD1 easily. The Ocean I'm not so sure but I doubt it is any big of a difference between it and the LD1.


----------



## Nightelf

If I use 32Ohms headphoes with amp choose?
   
  I don't want to mod them, becouse I don't have soldering skills.


----------



## Headzone

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Skip both and go for the Little Dot MK2 minimum recommended as I've had the experience with pairing different amp's in general with the DT990 and HD558 (similar to the 598) when it was in my possession. The LD1 is muddy and rolled off, and performance for money, my Bravo v2 modded tube amp best's the LD1 easily. The Ocean I'm not so sure but I doubt it is any big of a difference between it and the LD1.


 
  Is the bravo v2 really usable as a preamp? Have you tried it with your active monitors?
   
  "[size=large][size=14pt][size=large][size=10pt]*it can also connect with power amplifier such as a high performance pre amplifier to improve your Hi Fi system. blah blah"*[/size][/size][/size][/size]


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





headzone said:


> Is the bravo v2 really usable as a preamp? Have you tried it with your active monitors?
> 
> "[size=large][size=14pt][size=large][size=10pt]*it can also connect with power amplifier such as a high performance pre amplifier to improve your Hi Fi system. blah blah"*[/size][/size][/size][/size]


 
   
  I haven't tried so I don't know.


----------



## Nightelf

@DefQon - thank You very much.
  Some Grados should work well with little dot mkII?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





nightelf said:


> @DefQon - thank You very much.
> Some Grados should work well with little dot mkII?


 
   
  Yes it would, you can always tube roll with the LDMK2 if you find the treble slightly rolled off or so.


----------



## mattlondontubes

if anyone's wishing to offload one of these don't hesitate to drop me a pm ? (uk here)


----------



## apsol

I received today one of this amp's and im extremely regretful of having bought it. There's a very loud buzz noise and almost cant hear the music.
   
  Can anyone help?


----------



## BGRoberts

They're available on Amazon under the name "MUSE 6N11". 
  Less cost than I gave for mine.
  Bob


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





apsol said:


> I received today one of this amp's and im extremely regretful of having bought it. There's a very loud buzz noise and almost cant hear the music.
> 
> Can anyone help?


 
   
  Buzzing or low continous hum? If its a buzzing noise then it's a bridged solder connection on the pcb somewhere which is not supposed to, there is some interference going on somewhere and its a defect with the unit. If it's a low humming noise then it's power related suffering a ground loop. Either way contact the seller and describe the problems to him and ask him a for solution because the item you received is not as described, don't leave him feedback until the problem is solved.


----------



## apsol

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Buzzing or low continous hum? If its a buzzing noise then it's a bridged solder connection on the pcb somewhere which is not supposed to, there is some interference going on somewhere and its a defect with the unit. If it's a low humming noise then it's power related suffering a ground loop. Either way contact the seller and describe the problems to him and ask him a for solution because the item you received is not as described, don't leave him feedback until the problem is solved.


 

 Actually its a low continous humm i hear all the time, i said buzz because i saw it was the most used term to describe this problem.
   
  And thats other thing i did wrong, i leaved positive feedback as soon as i received the amp, was really stupid of me but i wasnt expecting it not to work. I already contacted the seller, no response so far.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





apsol said:


> Actually its a low continous humm i hear all the time, i said buzz because i saw it was the most used term to describe this problem.
> 
> And thats other thing i did wrong, i leaved positive feedback as soon as i received the amp, was really stupid of me but i wasnt expecting it not to work. I already contacted the seller, no response so far.


 
  Read my post before if its a low hum your hearing, very annoying might I add but it doesn't matter if you have left positive feedback in this case as there is no way you can reverse the process. Give the seller 1-3 days to reply back, if not after inform the seller that you will be opening a case through Paypal.


----------



## apsol

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Read my post before if its a low hum your hearing, very annoying might I add but it doesn't matter if you have left positive feedback in this case as there is no way you can reverse the process. Give the seller 1-3 days to reply back, if not after inform the seller that you will opening a case through Paypal.


 
   
  I think it is a ground loop but how i solve it?
 Can i still open a case even if i paid being paypal guest? because at that time had not yet added the new credit card that I have now.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





apsol said:


> I think it is a ground loop but how i solve it?
> Can i still open a case even if i paid being paypal guest? because at that time had not yet added the new credit card that I have now.


 
   
  A ground loop is not easy to solve, could of various reasons and you need to have a solder gun and voltmeter at hand and know which points to measure and know where the ground comes out of the circuitry. 
   
  As long as you paid through Paypal, it should provide you a transaction ID since its through eBay. You use the transaction ID to open cases and disputes should things get hairy or disagreement settlement occurs between the seller and buyer.


----------



## apsol

Quote: 





defqon said:


> A ground loop is not easy to solve, could of various reasons and you need to have a solder gun and voltmeter at hand and know which points to measure and know where the ground comes out of the circuitry.
> 
> As long as you paid through Paypal, it should provide you a transaction ID since its through eBay. You use the transaction ID to open cases and disputes should things get hairy or disagreement settlement occurs between the seller and buyer.


 

 dont know anything about electricity and stuff so its better to wait for a response from seller.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





apsol said:


> dont know anything about electricity and stuff so its better to wait for a response from seller.


 
  Exactly and its better to leave the unit be and wait for the seller to respond, otherwise if you go ahead feeling adventurous and tamper with the amp to try resolve the ground loop issue, the seller will most likely blame you making the problem arise and voids the warranty.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





apsol said:


> I think it is a ground loop but how i solve it?
> Can i still open a case even if i paid being paypal guest? because at that time had not yet added the new credit card that I have now.


 
   
  How do you know it's not the tube or the AC converter?  My original tube buzzed and made all kinds of noise.  I replaced it immediately as well as the AC converter.
   
  That said, once I got it working I put it in a plastic bag and into the "junk" drawer.


----------



## HiFi1972

I got my Bravo V2e last week and am loving it so far. I've read all 113 pages of this post while waiting for it, and bought two matched Mullard tubes that I got before the amp (the amp took 2 weeks to get to L.A.). It's only been a week; this is my first tube amp and the only comparisons I've made have been to the other amps I have, which are all solid state (Sansui AU series, CSG Cmoy, Emotiva USP-1, Crane Song Avocet DAC), but wanted to share some things that are "new" to this amp that have changed from comments posted a few months ago with regards to it that I think may help anyone who's been following this thread:
   
  These amps can be purchased directly from Bravo Audio, no need to look for one in auction (although I bought mine through a eBay auction and paid $56 including shipping, they sell them on their website for $69.99 for those that don't want to wait):
   
  http://bravoaudio.com/index.html
   
  As far as shipping these amps, Bravo now ships them in a box with a foam insert that secures them perfectly, and it comes with the stock tube already installed:
   

   
  The power supply that comes with the units appears to be of a higher quality than what was previously reported. While reading half way through this post, I almost ordered a new 24v PSU thinking the one I would be getting was going to suck, but decided to wait for the amp and see what I got, and am glad I did. I've been moving the amp around while it's on, and there's been no issues. I've even jiggled the connector to see if it cuts off power and it doesn't. The new PSU's block has a green status LED and high-quality shielding on the cables (have seen much cheaper-feeling PSU's come with other electronics I've bought in the past). Here's what the new PSU's look like:
   

   
  One thing I've noticed that Bravo hasn't updated in their product pictures is the new power switch. These no longer have the cheap switch everyone was complaining about. This is the new toggle switch that comes with the amp now:
   

   
  Now, my impressions of the amp so far are that for the money, it's a good deal. The stock tube, which I listened to for the first couple of days didn't excite me. When I switched it out for one of my Mullards, I was honestly floored by the dimensionality of the sound. The most high-end amp I own is the SS amp that's built into my Crane Song Avocet, it drives all my headphones but it's super neutral. My Sennheiser 650's sound amazing on this amp with the Mullard tube, as does my Grado SR80i. The most transparent pair of headphones I own is the AKG 240DF, which sounds "surgical" over my Avocet. I tried it on this amp and I can hear the tube's distortion a bit too much, so that's not a good pairing.
   
  Source so far has been my 2nd gen iPod touch connected to a DIY LOD cable I made, and I've got the amp connected to a Monster Pro 3500 conditioner. I can hear distortion from this amp while nothing is playing only past the "1 o'clock" position, and I've yet to listen to it this loud because even with the 650's, I don't go past "10 o'clock" on the attenuator. There are no noise issues whatsoever below the "12 o'clock" position, but I suspect that's due to it being connected to my power conditioner, as well as having all DIY cables on all my headphones so shielding is not an issue. If things change with regards to quality in the next few weeks, I will update this post. So far, I'm loving it. I was thinking of doing some of the mods but am currently thinking that I might just build one of these as I'm also learning how to build amps (I would like an XLR stereo out, or perhaps dual channel XLRs for outputs, as well as XLR inputs from some of my other gear, not sure at this point).


----------



## audionewbi

Ordered the bravo ocean, hopefully I can try different tubes in future. Got a lot to learn, completely new with tubes, this is my very first tube amp.


----------



## BGRoberts

Congratulations on your first tube amp!





  Be sure to keep us posted on how you like it and the tubes you try.
  BG


----------



## audionewbi

The Bravo Ocean arrived today! First thing first thanks alot for Jaben Australia for such a speedy delivery. Man this things is small! And boy does it have power or what! Cannot even pass the 9 o'clock on this babies. 

 However I notice a humming noise at 12 o'clock, but the strange thing is when my hand is in contact with the expose section of the 1/8 inch headphone plug the noise disappears?! I think it might have something to do with some static electricity building up or something. I let it burn in for 48 hours and report back.

 But for now ignoring the humming a great first impression!


----------



## audionewbi

The stock tube is bit on the bright side, I thought tubes are meant to have this 'warm' and 'lush' smooth SQ. 
   
   
*UPDATE 1:* The humming is due to the PSU. Replaced the PSU with an old 24 DC PSU I had and the hissing reduced to minor hissing at maximum volume. 
*UPDATE 2: Bravo Ocean has an insane amount of gain. People with 600 ohm headphone will really like this greatly. Now the dilemma for me is the gain is just too much for ER-4S and akg k702. Sadly with the k702 for some reason a lot of detail from the sound track is missing  I dont have tha problem with the ER-4S but with the k702 the sound compared to my SS amp becomes too forward. *


----------



## audionewbi

Darn bad RCA input


----------



## graphidz

So I have my Bravo V2 which has too much static which makes listening really uncomfortable.
   
  I read that one way is by changing the PSU, but I'd like to avoid that. Resoldering was an option too which I could try. But I wanna ask if there are any part that I can upgrade to improve the sound and decrease the static before I'll sell these and get an SS amp?
   
  Oh and I'm new to DIY so please explain in proper English please


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





graphidz said:


> So I have my Bravo V2 which has too much static which makes listening really uncomfortable.
> 
> I read that one way is by changing the PSU, but I'd like to avoid that. Resoldering was an option too which I could try. But I wanna ask if there are any part that I can upgrade to improve the sound and decrease the static before I'll sell these and get an SS amp?
> 
> Oh and I'm new to DIY so please explain in proper English please


 
  Go to the Rockgrotto website, in their forum's Headphone Amplifier section, they talk about upgrades and improvements to the little tube amplifiers.


----------



## HiFi1972

Update:
   
  Well, it seems my V2 was nice and quiet for only just a little over a month. It started making a noise that I can only describe as what it would sound like if you would be able to plug a headphone into a noisy refrigerator. At first I thought it was the Tube I had in it, but I have two others and they sound just as bad (although slightly different, LOL).
   
  Boy, I miss it though; it really made my Senn 650s sound great. I'm going to look into repairing it (I had this in the back of my mind when I first got the amp after reading so much about modding it to fix the problems these amps have so I'm kind of looking forward to that). I would advise people to not pay over $50 for this amp, because it's likely to need repairs/tweaks/mods soon.


----------



## philipt42

Just picked one up for $30 including $18 in shipping. I'm excited to play with it.


----------



## johnnyb3

Apologies if this question has been answered before, but I couldn't find it in searching the archives.
   
  I am driving (low-impedance) Grados with an early-version Bravo (6N11 + trim pots for bias). The problem is that I can't turn the volume pot past about 8:00, and the left and right signal are out of balance. (If I turn it up to 9:00, this fixes the balance problem, but then it's too loud.) So I'm looking to replace the volume pot.
   
  I make the pot to be 10K with a multimeter; the top reads 10 3B B2 2V, so I'm guessing this is 10K with "3B"-type taper, and the other two numbers I can't guess.
   
  This seems to be an ALPS-style pot, although for all I know it may be a low-quality knockoff. My questions then are these:
  Should I replace the pot with an ALPS pot of the same value? Would a higher- (or lower-???) value pot help the problem of not being far enough into the travel to behave in a balanced manner?
   
  Thanks for any help/insight!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





graphidz said:


> So I have my Bravo V2 which has too much static which makes listening really uncomfortable.
> 
> I read that one way is by changing the PSU, but I'd like to avoid that. Resoldering was an option too which I could try. But I wanna ask if there are any part that I can upgrade to improve the sound and decrease the static before I'll sell these and get an SS amp?
> 
> Oh and I'm new to DIY so please explain in proper English please


 
   
  Replace the PSU, change the power filtering cap to a better Nihicon or Panasonic.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





johnnyb3 said:


> Apologies if this question has been answered before, but I couldn't find it in searching the archives.
> 
> I am driving (low-impedance) Grados with an early-version Bravo (6N11 + trim pots for bias). The problem is that I can't turn the volume pot past about 8:00, and the left and right signal are out of balance. (If I turn it up to 9:00, this fixes the balance problem, but then it's too loud.) So I'm looking to replace the volume pot.
> 
> ...


 
  Unfamiliar with the old version Bravo tube amp's that take 6v tube's. But it could be:
   
  Channel imbalance, have you measured bias points to have both channels equal to the same bias reading (via trim pots adjustment)? It's a possible chance that your volume pot is defective in some way, replace it with a 100k volume pot that doesn't need to be the same as Japanese ALPs pot. Another quick way to fix it is just resolder the joints of the current volume pot on the circuit.
   
  All the best.


----------



## johnnyb3

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Unfamiliar with the old version Bravo tube amp's that take 6v tube's. But it could be:
> 
> Channel imbalance, have you measured bias points to have both channels equal to the same bias reading (via trim pots adjustment)? It's a possible chance that your volume pot is defective in some way, replace it with a 100k volume pot that doesn't need to be the same as Japanese ALPs pot. Another quick way to fix it is just resolder the joints of the current volume pot on the circuit.
> 
> All the best.


 
  Thank you for the reply. I did check and adjust the tube bias, and the problem has persisted. So the higher-resistance pot might be a better choice? Good to know. I kind of doubt the pot is actually "faulty" in a way other then maybe low-quality, just because at higher volumes the balance is perfect to my ear. By reputation at least ALPS is a pretty decent product, so I will go with that brand unless I hear a strong opinion otherwise.
   
  Thanks again!


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





johnnyb3 said:


> Apologies if this question has been answered before, but I couldn't find it in searching the archives.
> 
> I am driving (low-impedance) Grados with an early-version Bravo (6N11 + trim pots for bias). The problem is that I can't turn the volume pot past about 8:00, and the left and right signal are out of balance. (If I turn it up to 9:00, this fixes the balance problem, but then it's too loud.) So I'm looking to replace the volume pot.
> 
> ...


 
  Have you fine adjusted and balanced the right and left voltage channels?


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





johnnyb3 said:


> Apologies if this question has been answered before, but I couldn't find it in searching the archives.
> 
> I am driving (low-impedance) Grados with an early-version Bravo (6N11 + trim pots for bias). The problem is that I can't turn the volume pot past about 8:00, and the left and right signal are out of balance. (If I turn it up to 9:00, this fixes the balance problem, but then it's too loud.) So I'm looking to replace the volume pot.
> 
> ...


 

 your experience with this amp is typical & the replies are also typical (& less anyone misunderstand, i am not criticizing anyone here since i have gone thru the same issue with bravo & indeed v1 & v2) and are all correct to an extent.  the big issue is that you are attempting to use a low impedance headphone with a medium mu (gain) amp.  the left & right channels don't track well at the extremes because these pots are low-quality & attempting to replace the pot with a higher quality one risks damaging the circuit traces (they look good but they are far from durable).  i really wouldn't bother with attempting to mod these unless you have some experience in diy (if you do, then look in the rock grotto forum for the modding thread which will help you to transform the sonic quality of these amps ... but it still won't resolve the gain issue and tracking).  the cheapest route out of this is to use impedance adapters for your headphones and look for a better (sonic) quality 6dj8 tube.  once you have come to the realization that putting any more $ into this is just throwing good money after bad, go to garage1217's site & pick up his sunrise amp which really does justice to a single tube (6dj8/12au7 etc) hybrid amp design.  ofc, a cheaper solid state route is to go for something like the fiio.  or for more $, try the o2.


----------



## johnnyb3

Thanks, geetarman, for a thoughtful response. I sorta had upgraditis anyway, so I guess I'll pass that one along to a friend with higher-impedance cans.


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





johnnyb3 said:


> Thanks, geetarman, for a thoughtful response. I sorta had upgraditis anyway, so I guess I'll pass that one along to a friend with higher-impedance cans.


 

 you're welcome & wise move on that ...
  if your budget is tight, perhaps one of the fiio models will do the trick for you.  otherwise, i stand by my recommendation for _project sunrise_ if you're looking for a tube hybrid or the _O2_ if you want to stick with solid-state.


----------



## apsol

Bought today a RCA Cable instead the 3.5 to 3.5mm i was using and when i was playing i noticed that the sound was all messed up, like the sounds that suposed to come from the left i was listening them on the right side of the headphones. I removed the audio enhancers programs i was using thinking it was from there, well it wasnt. Restarted the pc, no luck. Then I thought it could be the cable so i swapped them, white on red input and red to white input. And it worked!
   
  So now im thinking is it the cable or the bravo that have the rca inputs swapped?
   
  And is there a problem if i use them swapped even if thats the only way they work correctly?
   
   
  The cable was quite cheap. Evology is the brand.


----------



## wes008

Oh, awesome! I've wanted a cheap tube amp for a while. I've been investigating this one by fred_fred: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200807704603#ht_4069wt_1041
  ^Anyone know how that might compare to the Bravo V1/V2?


----------



## fiesta

V1 and V2 is pure Class A amp. This one is not.


----------



## wes008

Quote: 





fiesta said:


> V1 and V2 is pure Class A amp. This one is not.


 
  Ahh, thanks.


----------



## MiLKMAN

Replaced IRF630's to IRL520PBF's (the best mosfets I could find in Estonia) on mine amp and now I couldn't be happier  Even that small tuning changes sound. No more cut off treble and muddy bass. Now V2 sounds concrete like SS amp, but with warmth and liquidity of tube amp. But I noticed that both right channel mosfets are much hotter. I can hold my finger on them maximum one second, but on leht channel mosfets I can hold my finger for about three/four seconds. Could anybody know, what's the problem?


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





milkman said:


> Replaced IRF630's to IRL520PBF's (the best mosfets I could find in Estonia) on mine amp and now I couldn't be happier  Even that small tuning changes sound. No more cut off treble and muddy bass. Now V2 sounds concrete like SS amp, but with warmth and liquidity of tube amp. But I noticed that both right channel mosfets are much hotter. I can hold my finger on them maximum one second, but on leht channel mosfets I can hold my finger for about three/four seconds. Could anybody know, what's the problem?


 

 offhand, i would say that more current is flowing thru right channel.  the right channel should sound louder than the left (is this the case?). 
   
  have you adjusted the trimpot to match bias voltage on both sides?  if you have and this behavior is still continuing, then i would suggest checking the tube for section mismatch & replace it with one that has balanced sections.


----------



## apsol

Do i really need to unplug the hp's before turning OFF the amp, as well as, first turn ON the amp then plug the hp's?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





apsol said:


> Do I really need to unplug the hp's before turning OFF the amp, as well as, first turn ON the amp then plug the hp's?


 
  Yea, better to plug or unplug before touching the power switch.
  Some of the newer designed single tube amp. come with a built in power up delay, to protect the headphones.


----------



## apsol

Hmm, i see. It annoys me, always doing that.
   
  So Im thinking of buying a fiio e10, not only because i dont need to have this care, of unplug and plug, but because i heard it have a good synergy with the DT 990 PRO's. But Im not sure if its better than the bravo with a vintage mullard tube that i bought.
   
  What do you think?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





apsol said:


> Hmm, i see. It annoys me, always doing that.
> 
> So Im thinking of buying a fiio e10, not only because i dont need to have this care, of unplug and plug, but because i heard it have a good synergy with the DT 990 PRO's. But Im not sure if its better than the bravo with a vintage mullard tube that i bought.
> 
> What do you think?


 
  The tube might(?) make the DT990s sound better.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





milkman said:


> Replaced IRF630's to IRL520PBF's (the best mosfets I could find in Estonia) on mine amp and now I couldn't be happier  Even that small tuning changes sound. No more cut off treble and muddy bass. Now V2 sounds concrete like SS amp, but with warmth and liquidity of tube amp. But I noticed that both right channel mosfets are much hotter. I can hold my finger on them maximum one second, but on leht channel mosfets I can hold my finger for about three/four seconds. Could anybody know, what's the problem?


 
  The IRL520's will do the job, being better then the F counterparts, but you had settled for a Fairchild IRL510 then man, would you be in for a surprise. It is normal the mosfet's are more hotter now, this is normal. If you want to reduce the heat a bit, replace the the large 25v 6800uf power capacitor to a 25v 10000of or 35v 6800uf capacitor, don't worry the supply of more volts will not kill the amp, but right now that 25v 6800uf cap is limiting the power input into the amp from the 24v wallwart being used, a bump in v for the cap or uf will give it some more headroom providing a more clearer sound.
   
  Remove the two resistors next to the tube near the LM317 mosfets (silver heatsink) to trimpots, bias adjust the voltage of the tube to the required amount, there are reference charts for the 12v triode tubes you can adjust the bias to, this will provide a more balance to the sound and certainly can reduce any slight voltage swings and extra heat on those IRL520's.
   
  For tube rolling, I definitely recommend you trying Sylvania O getter (black or grey plates), they mix in with the sound of the those IRL520's very good.


----------



## MiLKMAN

*DefQon*, thanks mate  Will do that


----------



## DefQon

Sorry, I made a mistake in the last post, if your going to change the power cap to a 35v make sure its 3500uf not 6800.


----------



## HumanSaurusRex

Is there a pictorial or a list of parts I have to change to get the most out of my Bravo Audio V2? Received mine today and I am not pleased with the sound compared to my Fiio E17.
  I use a Behringer UCA222 DAC


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





humansaurusrex said:


> Is there a pictorial or a list of parts I have to change to get the most out of my Bravo Audio V2? Received mine today and I am not pleased with the sound compared to my Fiio E17.
> I use a Behringer UCA222 DAC


 
  The forum on the website Rockgrotto has a subsection on headphone amplifiers were they talk about modification of the little single tube headphone amps.


----------



## JonnyN

Funnily enough mine arrived yesterday!
   
  Out of the box I'm actually quite pleased with the sound, no hissing or crackling or pops or any noise while on idle with the volume up high.
   
  Will probably still mod it, but more just for the prospect of a new project than anything else.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





humansaurusrex said:


> Is there a pictorial or a list of parts I have to change to get the most out of my Bravo Audio V2? Received mine today and I am not pleased with the sound compared to my Fiio E17.
> I use a Behringer UCA222 DAC


 
  Both are imo have different sound characteristics. Let your burn-in helps greatly with tube amp's such as the Bravo.
   
  As for mod's from the one's I already explained, you can consult to Rockgrotto board's, they have pictures and a list of the mods I mentioned performed step by step (well not exactly lol):
   
  http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m&action=display&thread=5297&page=1
   
  Enjoy.
   
  Ohh and as much as an impact those mod's make, they are only subtle not alot but it helps with listening discerns you will come across if your not happy with a particular sound, tube rolling makes the biggest difference.


----------



## Makiah S

Let me go ahead and ask, I'm planning to buy a Bravo v2. What are some nessicary Modifications in addition I want to add a "bass boost" is that possible. Also I'd like to keep my Mod Budget Under $30 [not including Tube Rolling] Thanks :3


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Both are imo have different sound characteristics. Let your burn-in helps greatly with tube amp's such as the Bravo.
> 
> As for mod's from the one's I already explained, you can consult to Rockgrotto board's, they have pictures and a list of the mods I mentioned performed step by step (well not exactly lol):
> 
> ...


 
  Liked what I saw there, also liked that it was CHEAP... I don't want a cheap Hybrid Tube... I want an intro Hybrid tube. An seeing as I can Mod this one I think for around $70 out of box and then with around $30 worth of parts... for $100 I can have a nice intro tube that will decide if I want to pursue BIGGER tubes :3, thanks for the help!


----------



## troll

I just got a V1 Deluxe and plugged it in. 

I'm noticing that there is a high-pitched whine, even when the volume is turned all the way down (or the input isn't plugged in), and some crackling. It's pretty annoying, and mars the quality of an otherwise good amp.

It appears that I can affect the whine a bit by moving the headphone cord around (when I raise it up, the whine gets louder). Thus, it is possible that the problem is crosstalk/interference of some sort.

Is it defective, or is this normal behavior? Any thoughts?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





jonnyn said:


> Funnily enough mine arrived yesterday!
> 
> Out of the box I'm actually quite pleased with the sound, no hissing or crackling or pops or any noise while on idle with the volume up high.
> 
> Will probably still mod it, but more just for the prospect of a new project than anything else.


 
  Get a digital Multi-meter, like the DT830, usually sells and ships for $5, use it to balance the right and left channels and fine voltage adjustments.
  You need to do the adjustments after the tube amp has warmed up for 5 to 15 minutes, which I'm guess that the manufacturer does not take the time to do.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Get a digital Multi-meter, like the DT830, usually sells and ships for $5, use it to balance the right and left channels and fine voltage adjustments.
> You need to do the adjustments after the tube amp has warmed up for 5 to 15 minutes, which I'm guess that the manufacturer does not take the time to do.


 
  Wow how would you do that, also... BIAS Procedure e.e what is that and why is it required b4 I swap a 12volt tube for a 6volt one...


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Wow how would you do that, also... BIAS Procedure e.e what is that and why is it required b4 I swap a 12volt tube for a 6volt one...


 

 if you google 'rockgrotto bravo amp' you'll find the link on how to bias the bravo amps - very good description of the procedure, complete with pictures.
   
  unless the amps provide a *switch *or *jumper *for substituting 6- and 12-volt type tubes, you'll quickly discover that you cannot arbitrarily make this type of substitution.  if your amp has been provided with _*6922 *_(6-volt type) and there is no switch/jumper for 12-volt, then you must stick with 6-volt types such as 6dj8, ecc88, pcc88, etc.  if your amp has been provided with 12au7 (12-volt type) and you swap in a 6-volt type, you'll discover that it is possible to burn out tubes.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> if you google 'rockgrotto bravo amp' you'll find the link on how to bias the bravo amps - very good description of the procedure, complete with pictures.
> 
> unless the amps provide a *switch *or *jumper *for substituting 6- and 12-volt type tubes, you'll quickly discover that you cannot arbitrarily make this type of substitution.  if your amp has been provided with _*6922 *_(6-volt type) and there is no switch/jumper for 12-volt, then you must stick with 6-volt types such as 6dj8, ecc88, pcc88, etc.  if your amp has been provided with 12au7 (12-volt type) and you swap in a 6-volt type, you'll discover that it is possible to burn out tubes.


 
  well my amp has a 6-12volt jumper thankfully. My question is why the different voltages? I would Assume a 12 Volt Tube will have more voltage to drive with "obviously"


----------



## Evshrug

Woooow, took me forever, but finally completed reading this whole thread from the beginning. Started like sometime this summer, lol. Stupidly, I didn't bookmark the pages with the most useful info (like which parts to swap, what effect each upgrade has on the sound, etc).

Mshenay,
How are you liking your amp?
I ordered a digital multimeter off amazon, they really are cheap, it should arrive before Christmas and hopefully work accurately enough.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Woooow, took me forever, but finally completed reading this whole thread from the beginning. Started like sometime this summer, lol. Stupidly, I didn't bookmark the pages with the most useful info (like which parts to swap, what effect each upgrade has on the sound, etc).
> Mshenay,
> How are you liking your amp?
> I ordered a digital multimeter off amazon, they really are cheap, it should arrive before Christmas and hopefully work accurately enough.


 
   
   
  Here is my review http://www.head-fi.org/t/642250/review-indeed-g3-modded-hybrid-tube-amp
   
  and it sounds really nice! Glad I paid $100 for mine [already modded] instead of buying a Bravo [no offense xD] still though the G3 is about $40 more and comes stock with a good number of the recommeneded Bravo Mods [like the improved Mofsets] so if you like and CAN mod your electronics I think the Bravo is ur amp... but if u can't mod ur electronics xD the Indeed [for $40] should be sufficent. 
   
  Still, Indeed G3 sounds great. http://www.head-fi.org/t/642250/review-indeed-g3-modded-hybrid-tube-amp check it out there


----------



## Evshrug

I finally got a multimeter for biasing my tube amp properly, the background is SILENT and I don't have any buzz now. I had both channels turned up to like 18 v each, yeesh! Sounds wonderful now. I'm listening to "Armchair Apocrypha" by Andrew Bird right now, very timely lol, but also alt-rock featuring violin & stuff for a very fun listen, an excellent display of the liquid mids, expansive soundstage, and _fun_ typified by a tubey amp


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I finally got a multimeter for biasing my tube amp properly, the background is SILENT and I don't have any buzz now. I had both channels turned up to like 18 v each, yeesh! Sounds wonderful now. I'm listening to "Armchair Apocrypha" by Andrew Bird right now, very timely lol, but also alt-rock featuring violin & stuff for a very fun listen, an excellent display of the liquid mids, expansive soundstage, and _fun_ typified by a tubey amp


 
  Yea, the Indeed and Bravo apprently sound simmilar. I Belive the Bravo v1 has the Harmonix 6992, and the v2 has the 12UA7. But yea to much Volt won't allow the tube to work. From my understanding to much is bad for the sound, to little is BAD FOR THE AMP... to little volt on ur bias and your tube might explode and to much and the flow of electrons will be to restrive for it to sound good.
   
  But I LOVE those nice liquid, rich mids from tubes! My "tubey" cMoy doesn't even compare!


----------



## Evshrug

Just swapped/tuned a different tube for the first time... From an Amperex 6DJ8 made in Holland (white letters) for a Sylvania JAN 6DJ8, apparently made in the USA (green lettering). It's hard to quickly compare two tubes from the same amp, because I let the new tube warm up before I opened up the amp and biased it, but it is distinctly different... It's less thick, seems to emphasize sweetened highs. The mids and highs seem to sound more like the Ad700 presentation, a little bright and very spacious. And even though it doesn't seem to be based in bass as much, I definitely notice more articulation and detail in my bassy test song ("Angel" by Massive attack... Listening right now, artificial drum stuff hasn't started yet... Ok there's that bit, w/ev).

Ok basically I just put the music on, so far I think I may actually prefer this tube for the detail, air, and texture. Seems that a slight graininess is fading as the tube warms up/burns in. Liking it! I bet this tube would be fantastic for gaming.


----------



## Evshrug

Holy Crap!
I don't remember this song sounding like THIS before?!!!
Mshenay, if you like sexy sounding female vocals, check out the very atmospheric "The Only Hand to Hold" by Prefuse 73. Love, LOVE her voice on this track, the b-DUN-duh of the bass, but WOAH! Listen with your amp, and tell me if you hear a Saran-Wrap sheen that lays over the track... Sounds very unique! This new tube REALLY digs into the textures of audio. The Amperex I started with (and used for most of December) is kinda smooth and weighty, what I would imagine an HD650 sound signature to sound like, but this Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 sounds like what I expect a $400 sound system to sound like compared to what I had before. Both tubes are of good quality, but I'm loving this one right now!


----------



## TheGame21x

After a long period of inactivity, I decided to hook my Bravo Audio V2 back up and give it a listen, using my Fiio E10 as my DAC.
   
  I haven't modded it at all (beyond switching the stock tube for an RCA tube I bought off eBay) and, even with my HD600s, it sounds absolutely incredible. Great warmth, detail retrieval and balance that really makes the HD600s a pleasure to listen to.


----------



## Evshrug

Those RCA's are supposed to be awesome, I've been smacking my lips over one I've had on my watch list... since thanksgiving. Different tubes really do make a big difference


----------



## StatutoryApe

I need some help!
   
  I bought a Bravo V2, finally came after nearly a month of waiting. I got it for my xbox, to plug my rca into, then Sennheiser HD555's for the goodness. I used it for a game of call of duty, then had to go do whatever. I was busy for 5 days so it was just sitting there, plugged in but not on on my desk. Today I tried to use it, it wouldn't come on. The red power light wasn't working, tube didn't have the blue glow to it, it was dead. I tried plugging it in again, nothing. It was weird though, I had it plugged in, unplugged it from the outlet but left it plugged into the preamp and the power light/tube were on for a few seconds and slowly faded. I'm just wondering what the problem is. Is it the power unit? 
   
  Any ideas would be fantastic, thank you very much!


----------



## Evshrug

Statutory,
Sounds like the LED lights came on for a sec just from some residual power flowing from the capacitors, but the amp wasn't receiving more power from the wall. It could be many things, but if I was you I'd first make sure both ends of the power cord were plugged in securely. You may even have looseness in the amp's power jack, so you have to move the power cable around until it rests just so in the power socket that your amp comes back to life. Please, be careful not to shock yourself while trying this.
Good luck & happy new year!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





statutoryape said:


> I need some help!
> 
> I bought a Bravo V2, finally came after nearly a month of waiting. I got it for my xbox, to plug my rca into, then Sennheiser HD555's for the goodness. I used it for a game of call of duty, then had to go do whatever. I was busy for 5 days so it was just sitting there, plugged in but not on on my desk. Today I tried to use it, it wouldn't come on. The red power light wasn't working, tube didn't have the blue glow to it, it was dead. I tried plugging it in again, nothing. It was weird though, I had it plugged in, unplugged it from the outlet but left it plugged into the preamp and the power light/tube were on for a few seconds and slowly faded. I'm just wondering what the problem is. Is it the power unit?
> 
> Any ideas would be fantastic, thank you very much!


 
  Sounds like you have a power switch problem with the DPT switch. Myself and other's on Rockgrotto board that has a Bravo recommend to get rid of that switch and buy a better quality one. I had this problem myself way back when I first bought mine, but if you push the switch knob inwards a bit while moving it to on position, the switch itself should click back into position.


----------



## StatutoryApe

I tried pushing the knob in, didn't work. What switch would you recommend me getting. I'm not super great at soldering, I have the solder sucker thing and a soldering iron, I don't think I have the proper solder though. Links?  Thank you for your responses!


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Sounds like you have a power switch problem with the DPT switch. Myself and other's on Rockgrotto board that has a Bravo recommend to get rid of that switch and buy a better quality one. I had this problem myself way back when I first bought mine, but if you push the switch knob inwards a bit while moving it to on position, the switch itself should click back into position.


 

 An this is why I own an Ideed G3 and not a Bravo <3
   
  But the Bravo is about $50 cheap so... you get what you pay for :[ (not sound wise, but I was told the Bravo is GREAT for people who enjoy modding... since it benifits so much from a number of inexpensive mods] But I think that applies to a lot of the Sub $100 Tube Hybrids
   
  Non the less, you might try going to the for sale boards and seeing if you can find some one who would be nice enough to do a little work on it for you. I'm also pretty bad at soddering [thankfully my amp can Pre Modded from it's first owner] In addition while your getting it fixed you could maybe spend $30 or so dollars and get some mods done to it. Does the Bravo come with the "better" mofsets? Non the less I'd check out the Bravo mod forum and again, fix and it improve it all at once. And sorry to hear that it's not working :[


----------



## RAZRr1275

Hey I'm looking for tube rolling recommendations for the v2 - Some things I had my eyes on are
   
  Tung Sol 6189s
  RCA 5963 (has a grey top)
  GE 5963
  Brimar 12au7
  Sylvania Baldwin 12au7 (1961)
  1960 GE 12AU7
  1961 RCA Clear Tops
   
  Looking for 3-4 of these to select. Any tips? I'm looking for different sorts of sound sigs from each set


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





razrr1275 said:


> Brimar 12au7
> 1960 GE 12AU7
> 1961 RCA Clear Tops


 
  Done


----------



## RAZRr1275

How do you go about taking off the top cover of the bravo v2? I'm going to bias it for the first time


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





razrr1275 said:


> How do you go about taking off the top cover of the bravo v2? I'm going to bias it for the first time


 
   
  There are four hex nuts at each corner of the plexiglass cover, undo them carefully.


----------



## Evshrug

Hey DefQon,
Tube choice, especially considering an AKG Q701 and a love for texture and musicality (there's a vague term!):

Red letter RCA (supposedly similar to Amperex orange globe)
Reflector Military 6N23P EV

price is about the same... Your thoughts/opinions would be nice  I currently enjoy a Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 a lot, though I'm still curious.


----------



## Leonarfd

Just ordered an Bravo Audio Ocean for fun, not been very interested into the tube amps. But might aswell give it a shot is so cheap and it just looksso cute 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  Anyone who know what is a good tube for this one that would match some Beyerdynamic DT880 or a Mad Dog?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Hey DefQon,
> Tube choice, especially considering an AKG Q701 and a love for texture and musicality (there's a vague term!):
> 
> Red letter RCA (supposedly similar to Amperex orange globe)
> ...


 
   
  The RCA (regardless of grade, production spec military or mass production model's) will provide a bit more bass and is slightly laid-back sounding (sort of warmish and dark). I would only imagine it would suit your Q701's brighter sound sig very well, balancing it out.  Haven't heard much of the Amperex Orange globes but a quick search returns them being around the same price as the Holland 1951-54 "flashers" (around $15-30) on fleabay. You can get Bugleboys for around the same price sometimes which is better than the red, white, silver and green letter RCA's. Other options you can consider that pair well with the Q701 sound wise, are Mullards CV4003's usually $30-40 a pop.
   
  Have not heard and or used the Reflector Military 6N23P- EV's, I have limited experience when it comes to 6922 variants, only have more experience with 300b, KT66/88, 6SN7/6AS7, 12XX7 and 6NP/6AQB tubes.
   
  Also I might try some 12BH7's soon which should work well as a substitute for the 12AU7 in the Bravo circuit. Biasing will be a pain, subjectively speaking a 12BH7 drop in replacement should blow the 12AU7 out of the water in every way sound production wise possible. We'll see.
   
  Btw are you tube rolling in an Indeed/Bravo v3 amp? The Bravo v2 does not take 6v tubes.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





leonarfd said:


> Just ordered an Bravo Audio Ocean for fun, not been very interested into the tube amps. But might aswell give it a shot is so cheap and it just looksso cute
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  For DT-880 stay away from RCA's or Mullards, sounds smeared and murky with them. Non-re issued Genalexs are good with the DT880, presumably you have the 600ohm prem version which is the only one that I had for a little while paired with few amps. I can also recommend the Psvanes and Sophia's grade a which are the best modern in-production tubes you can get, besting a lot of the old vintage rare and expensive Tele's and Gold Lions I've tried but they are bit steep at $100 a pop for first timers.
   
  EDIT: Fixed.


----------



## Leonarfd

yeh that is a pretty hefty on the last one, would lamost cost the same as the amp ^^


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





leonarfd said:


> yeh that is a pretty hefty on the last one, would lamost cost the same as the amp ^^


 
   
  Indeed it is, but they will sound extremely well across most if not all amp's that accommodate 12AU7's. Just for comparison, they best the old Gold Lions ($200-260) in every way possible, almost the same with the nos Tele diamond base ($250+ ) tubes.


----------



## Evshrug

defqon said:


> The RCA (regardless of grade, production spec military or mass production model's) will provide a bit more bass and is slightly laid-back sounding (sort of warmish and dark). I would only imagine it would suit your Q701's brighter sound sig very well, balancing it out.  Haven't heard much of the Amperex Orange globes but a quick search returns them being around the same price as the Holland 1951-54 "flashers" (around $15-30) on fleabay. You can get Bugleboys for around the same price sometimes which is better than the red, white, silver and green letter RCA's.
> 
> Have not heard and or used the Reflector Military 6N23P- EV's, I have limited experience when it comes to 6922 variants, only have more experience with 300b, KT66/88, 6SN7/6AS7, 12XX7 and 6NP/6AQB tubes.
> 
> Btw are you tube rolling in an Indeed/Bravo v3 amp? The Bravo v2 does not take 6v tubes.




Uh, no, neither actually, but it is a 6DJ8 based amp. Unfortunately I ordered a 6N1P tube (hasn't arrived yet), which is a 7v tube, and I doubt it will roll correctly. I also have an Amperex 6DJ8 with a white label, which was also warm-ish and laid back, but the Sylvania is my preference because it creates a sound with more texture and excitement. Ideally, I'd like that texture with some of the warmth from the Amperex, but I don't know if that's possible within my budget (as nice that new 12au7 variant tube you mentioned sounds, $100 is out for now). Just trying to collect info


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Uh, no, neither actually, but it is a 6DJ8 based amp. Unfortunately I ordered a 6N1P tube (hasn't arrived yet), which is a 7v tube, and I doubt it will roll correctly. I also have an Amperex 6DJ8 with a white label, which was also warm-ish and laid back, but the Sylvania is my preference because it creates a sound with more texture and excitement. Ideally, I'd like that texture with some of the warmth from the Amperex, but I don't know if that's possible within my budget (as nice that new 12au7 variant tube you mentioned sounds, $100 is out for now). Just trying to collect info


 
  6N1P are 6v tubes, denoted by the 6 at the front, 7v tubes will start with 7XX just fyi. I know which tube amp your talking about, they look almost alike to the Bravo's and Indeed except they are not branded. With 6N1(P) , not that many variants compared to 6DJ8's or 12AU7's. Most common 6N1P I've seen are Sovtek's, Electro Harmonix, Shuguang (as well as generic's), Mullards and Mesa Boogies.


----------



## Evshrug

defqon said:


> 6N1P are 6v tubes, denoted by the 6 at the front, 7v tubes will start with 7XX just fyi. I know which tube amp your talking about, they look almost alike to the Bravo's and Indeed except they are not branded. With 6N1(P) , not that many variants compared to 6DJ8's or 12AU7's. Most common 6N1P I've seen are Sovtek's, Electro Harmonix, Shuguang (as well as generic's), Mullards and Mesa Boogies.




You do know which amp I'm talking about?

Not trying to steal the show, but it's a prototype 6DJ8 amp that will probably be called the Rock & Glass. The components and output are impressive, and the man making them was going to think about how to screen the name and a little decorative ring around the tube socket, like the rosetta ring you'd see around a guitar's sound hole.

I haven't heard from the amp maker in a good while, but judge buff said this tube type was incompatible. Here was the tube's listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N1P-EV-OC-E88CC-6DJ8-6922-Voskhod-1980s-NIB-VERY-RARE-Nuclear-grade-NR-/181048711618?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=O0i3HfkSUGTKFsna%252FfIn8cyphBw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
I don't *think* anything will explode if it's not quite compatible, but I wanted to ask. Have multimeter, want to experiment


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> You do know which amp I'm talking about?
> 
> Not trying to steal the show, but it's a prototype 6DJ8 amp that will probably be called the Rock & Glass. The components and output are impressive, and the man making them was going to think about how to screen the name and a little decorative ring around the tube socket, like the rosetta ring you'd see around a guitar's sound hole.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ah. Guess I was wrong but there are amp's similar to what you were talking about that take the 6DJ8's on ebay. Nice looking amp you've given me an idea how I should encase my modded Bravo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   
  It won't explode but in worse case scenarios it will kill your amp, first to go will be either the tubes itself or the tranny and then any resistors or caps etc will be toasted. I've only had 1 extreme case of an incompatible tube blow up (literally, cracked opened from the top side of the getter area.


----------



## Evshrug

I guess, though your implementation will be different. Is the bravo a class-A type amp?
I seriously do not want to kill my amp over a cheap curiosity... The capacitors were just getting nicely burned in, and I don't know anyone local who could fix it. What about the tube could cause the problems, especially if it's a 6v tube like the 6dj8? Like a current short or something?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I guess, though your implementation will be different. Is the bravo a class-A type amp?
> I seriously do not want to kill my amp over a cheap curiosity... The capacitors were just getting nicely burned in, and I don't know anyone local who could fix it. What about the tube could cause the problems, especially if it's a 6v tube like the 6dj8? Like a current short or something?


 
  Yeah it's definitely not worth it, that's why you should either mod the circuit so it can take it or leave it as-is. Most commonly the tube will die first, the heaters and cathode will burn out (a symptom when you turn the amp on is buzzling and crackling on the channels and/or one side dead quiet) shorting itself out. You can tell a tube has been shorted by looking at the top getter area when powered on, one side or both sides not emitting any sort of glow means a short has occurred (no sound).


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah well, the 6N1P specifications are kind of a mystery to me, so I have no idea how to mod the circuit to accept it.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Yeah well, the 6N1P specifications are kind of a mystery to me, so I have no idea how to mod the circuit to accept it.


 
  Yeh most integrated speaker amp's take 6N1P tubes, not many with headphone amp's that I have come across DIY or commercial.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah... Well, it was cheap except for shipping and waiting about a month. Kept me from spending money in the meantime, lol


----------



## DefQon

What are the dimensions of your amplifier?


----------



## Evshrug

Pretty small for a desktop amp, if you mean what size dimensions and not specs or something. I've been talking to many people with English as a second language lately, it can make you question alternative meanings for things. Hold on and let me see if I can find a ruler...


----------



## Evshrug

Didn't exactly find a ruler, but I would guess 4.25"W x 4.5"L x 1.5"H
Pretty close to that. Why?


----------



## DefQon

Thanks. Just rounding up some ideas of how big of an enclosure I want for my Bravo amp.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah mine's a pretty neat size. How big is the circuit board for the Bravo/indeed/MUSE hybrids?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Yeah mine's a pretty neat size. How big is the circuit board for the Bravo/indeed/MUSE hybrids?


 
  Little over 2 inches by 2 inches (L x W)


----------



## blazingazn

Got hyped up after seeing a picture of the Bravo V1 with a DIY Headphone Stand.
   
  After reading about 50 pages of this thread I decided to order a Bravo V2 off eBay from the Bravo authorized re-seller.
   
  Bid on it for $57 shipped!
  Should be here mid-February 
   
   
  What tubes are recommend (on the cheap) for the following:
Shure SRH840
  Klipsch X10
  Monster Beats Tour
   
   
  And I listen to these infrequently:
  Grado SR225
   
   
  I wanna spend pennies if possible!!!
  Regards,
  -Rick.


----------



## Evshrug

Amperex Bugle boy 6dj8, Sylvania JAN 6DJ8, and Russian 6N23-EV tubes. RCA clear top 6DJ8s are also pretty good.
Expect to pay $15-25 for tubes that aren't in bad condition. I won a tube for a $0.01 bid, but the shipping was $11, it took a month to arrive, and unfortunately it's incompatible with my amp. IMO, you really want to be careful you buy a tube that tests very strong.


----------



## Leonarfd

Wow just got myself my bravo. Not the same version as most you here, got the Bravo Audio Ocean. First impression is really good, and so extremely powerfull. At 7-8 oclock its almost to loud with my 250ohm dt880. Now I just need to see if I can find a tube that boosts the mid abit and the lows maybe. ill post some pictures later if someone is interested. Its small and cute tbh. Funny it got so much power.


----------



## blazingazn

Leonarfd, please post pictures!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Amperex Bugle boy 6dj8, Sylvania JAN 6DJ8, and Russian 6N23-EV tubes. RCA clear top 6DJ8s are also pretty good.
> Expect to pay $15-25 for tubes that aren't in bad condition. I won a tube for a $0.01 bid, but the shipping was $11, it took a month to arrive, and unfortunately it's incompatible with my amp. IMO, you really want to be careful you buy a tube that tests very strong.


 
  Bravo v2 don't take 6v tubes, only takes 12au7 or equivalent 12v dual triode valves that have almost the mu rating.


----------



## blazingazn

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Bravo v2 don't take 6v tubes, only takes 12au7 or equivalent 12v dual triode valves that have almost the mu rating.


 
   
  Got any suggestions for my gear?


----------



## blazingazn

We should really report this Shill Bidder on eBay *k****y*.
   
  Likely works for the same company and as soon as a few people place bids I bet they just place a max bid of like $35 and leave it alone.
   
   
  Does anyone know how to report sellers on eBay?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> Got hyped up after seeing a picture of the Bravo V1 with a DIY Headphone Stand.
> 
> After reading about 50 pages of this thread I decided to order a Bravo V2 off eBay from the Bravo authorized re-seller.
> 
> ...


 
   
  You're gonna need a few tubes to complement the sound sig of those headphones/iem.
   
  SRH840 I can only recommend some decent Sylvania's, any 12AU7 will do as your a beginner to tube rolling so spending lots $$$ is not worth it. Any Sylvania's will bring out the treble to be more intimate and euphonic sounding with the SRH840, brings the sound out more bit more forward.
   
  X10 - You will need an impedence adapter as the Bravo will be too sensitive on the volume control. Get some Amperex or RCA to tone down the bright sig of the X10's. RCA's are more laid back but with plenty of bass but can sound bit too slow. Amperex and Mullards to my ears sound like a RCA but more balanced. Watch out for mis-labeled Mullards, most of the acclaimed NOS on fleabay are late 1980-1990's re-issues.


----------



## DefQon

Generally I prefer long black plate Sylvies, but for cheap:
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-x-12au7A-ecc82-Sylvania-Baldwin-Tubes-Copper-Grid-40-Available-/370730978808?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item565149cdf8&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1156
   
  I have 4 pairs of these, pretty good sounding for its value:
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SYLVANIA-12AU7-MATCH-PAIR-ECC82-LONG-PLATE-COPR-GRID-POST-TEST-NOS-/330864595900?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4d091113bc&_uhb=1#ht_750wt_1037
   
  Have 1 of these that Doc sent me when I purchased my Bottlehead Crack kit while ago, I like them quite a bit with the Alessandro MS1's I had:
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Vintage-Sylvania-12AU7-A-Tubes-Test-NOS-1964-/251214832901?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a7d922505&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1054
   
  If you're willing to bid:
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Sylvania-6680-12AU7-Audio-Electronic-Vintage-Vacuum-Tube-/170981022986?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27cf435d0a&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1288
   
   
  And with the Amperex:
   
  BugleBoys are good but the prices for them are inflated on the bay due to demand, but if you want still one of the best from Amperex range, these are close sounding to my NOS "Flashers"
   
  Bit pricey but you shouldn't need an RCA to tone down on the bright sig'd headphones if you get this:
   
  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-Amperex-Holland-12AU7-ECC82-Stereo-Tube-vVNCJCXNVNUNS9V9H98JV8JV8JV8097-/181064636650?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a284b18ea&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1054


----------



## blazingazn

DefQon, you're the best man!
   
  This really gives me a lot to go on and should really add to my experience!
   
   
  Thanks dude,
  -Rick.


----------



## Leonarfd

It costed me 79$ trough bid and I got it tax free. But in this price group it has big competition to many solid state amps. Ok here is some pictures of the Bravo Audio Ocean taken before bedtime, with blitz and mobile camera.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> DefQon, you're the best man!
> 
> This really gives me a lot to go on and should really add to my experience!
> 
> ...


 
  No problems. You can tube roll on the Bravo all you want (maybe when your confident enough with some modding, they can be performed to), be it ECC82 (Europe branding for the 12AU7 {USA}) there are lot's of varieties to try from. 
  Quote: 





leonarfd said:


> It costed me 79$ and I got it tax free. But in this price group it has big competition to many solid state amps. Ok here is some pictures of the Bravo Audio Ocean taken before bedtime, with blitz and mobile camera.


 
   
  Nice stuff, now start tube rolling that biatch


----------



## Bassmntmuzik

Hey, so I was interested in the Bravo V3 becuase it seems as though the tube amps give great sound for headphones. Would this amp work well with the SR-80i's? I know that its been a while since anyone has posted on this thread but, do you guys have any updates as to how your amp is holding up? (Preferably those who own the Ocean or V3)
   
  So you guys suggest that I change the tube after I buy it? Is it easy to change the tube? Is it a soldering job or just plug in? What tubes are recommended?


----------



## DefQon

No soldering is required, changing tube's is as easy folding a piece of paper. 
   
  1. Turn off the amplifier let it cool down a few minutes (the tube still be hot a while).
   
  2. Gently pull the tube out from the socket of the amp.
   
  3. Slot in a matching equivalent tube (different make/manufacturer etc), confirm compatibility before turning amp on.
   
  4. Once all good and the tube is fully intact, you're good to go, turn on amp and enjoy the music.
   
  5. If you hear some hum or slightly distortion with the low's, certain NOS tubes can behave like this, let the tube reform itself (burn-in equivalent) for 24 hours for best results. If artefacts still persist, replace tube or try in another amp.


----------



## Bassmntmuzik

Nice, that sounds good. Thanks. How long have you had your amp? Do you happen to have the V3, cause I wanna know how good the equalizer works? I have the Pyle PTA2 small stereo amp to power my SR-80i's but like it becuase of the equalizing feature which works really well. I just want know how effective the V3 is in comparison.


----------



## flatulenzio

I'm thinking about getting a V1 or V2 for a Sennheiser HD600 - which one would you prefer and why?
   
  Thanx a lot
  f.


----------



## Evshrug

^ of this amp design, I would prefer an Indeed G3, because it has many upgraded components (resistors, low-noise power supply, capacitors, MOSFETS) two inputs & outputs, a switch to enable 6DJ8 or 12AU7 equivalent tube families, a bass/treble boost function that adjusts itself based on overall volume setting, a power-on safety delay to prevent the "pop!" that can damage your headphones and hearing, and more. The bravo made some improvements from their original release, and they're a bit cheaper, but unless you have modding skills I suggest you buy the Indeed version. If you read back through this thread, starting at the beginning or middle when these amps were most popular, you'll see that many people came to this conclusion. Particularly look for Judge Buff's posts, he ended up buying a few of each kind of amp.


----------



## blazingazn

Was wondering if these little tube amps could be used to color the sound from computer speakers?
   
  I have the Audioengine A2 and was wondering if that's possible?
  Would there even be any point?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





bassmntmuzik said:


> Nice, that sounds good. Thanks. How long have you had your amp? Do you happen to have the V3, cause I wanna know how good the equalizer works? I have the Pyle PTA2 small stereo amp to power my SR-80i's but like it becuase of the equalizing feature which works really well. I just want know how effective the V3 is in comparison.


 
  I had the V1 Bravo prior to joining Head-fi (been a lurker since 2004) and as soon as I registered not long later I got a Bravo v2 for free, so it's been 2 year's of me owning the Bravo v2. I haven't tried the V3 because I don't think it's worth the extra dosh but it shouldn't be to bad if you want the addition of a simple built in equaliser. Dedicated equalisers and software eq are still by far more powerful with more control though. Just more finicky as you need to know what sound hertz range you need to adjust if you want a simple treble, tone and bass adjustment. Theoritically speaking, the V3 is a V2 with eq.
   
  Quote: 





flatulenzio said:


> I'm thinking about getting a V1 or V2 for a Sennheiser HD600 - which one would you prefer and why?
> 
> Thanx a lot
> f.


 
   
  Skip out both and get yourself a Bottlehead Crack or Sunrise DIY amp (or built for a bit more money). None of the Indeed's, Bravo's will do the headphones justice not just impdedence wise. 
   
  Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> Was wondering if these little tube amps could be used to color the sound from computer speakers?
> 
> I have the Audioengine A2 and was wondering if that's possible?
> Would there even be any point?


 
   
  These are not designed to power speakers directly unless you use the Bravo or Indeed as a dedicated pre-amp, their isn't much coloration added just more warmth.


----------



## stupidmop

Hi all. Had a bravo V2 now for over 3 months. Nice little amp but after reading this entire thread I've invested in a good soldering gun and sucker  Hope to start all the great mods suggested in the next few weeks. Thanks head fi!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stupidmop said:


> Hi all. Had a bravo V2 now for over 3 months. Nice little amp but after reading this entire thread I've invested in a good soldering gun and sucker  Hope to start all the great mods suggested in the next few weeks. Thanks head fi!


 
   
  In order for sound difference (biggest diff from top to bottom):
   
  Tube rolling
  IRL510 PBF or N mosfets
  Crosstalk mod
  Change caps to bigger values and using better brands Nichi's or Elna's will do replacing those NCC's.
  Change LM317 to 317A military spec fets
   
  Optional but very beneficial and massive change to background noise but expensive:
   
  o22 (Sigma22) regulated power supply or equivalent.


----------



## blazingazn

Quote: 





defqon said:


> These are not designed to power speakers directly unless you use the Bravo or Indeed as a dedicated pre-amp, their isn't much coloration added just more warmth.


 
   
  AudioEngine A2 are self powered so I guess these would assume the role of a pre-amp?
   
  I just got it today!
  Overall first impressions, I'm impressed. My Shure SRH840 sound much better! Bass punch is cleaner, highs have more detail, separation and soundstage is better.
  Did not hear a big difference with my Grado SR225s.
   
  I'll burn these in until the weekend and see what's up.
  DefQon, hope you'll be cool with me PM'ing you in regards to eBay Tube auctions, just want your expert opinion!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> AudioEngine A2 are self powered so I guess these would assume the role of a pre-amp?
> 
> I just got it today!
> Overall first impressions, I'm impressed. My Shure SRH840 sound much better! Bass punch is cleaner, highs have more detail, separation and soundstage is better.
> ...


 
  ^ No problems, be happy to be of help.
   
  Yes they will be working as a pre-amp. I've always felt that anything Grado or Alessandro up to the GS1000's work better with solid state amps over tube based, the synergy is great with some ss amp's and some Grado/Alessandro's.


----------



## stupidmop

Quote: 





defqon said:


> In order for sound difference (biggest diff from top to bottom):
> 
> Tube rolling
> IRL510 PBF or N mosfets
> ...


 
   Wow, thanks Defqon! Been rolling tubes since day I got it. Favorite is ken rad 5814, but I have a bunch I haven't tried yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm taking a spare no expense approach with this hopefully. Really appreciate that list


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stupidmop said:


> Wow, thanks Defqon! Been rolling tubes since day I got it. Favorite is ken rad 5814, but I have a bunch I haven't tried yet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  No problems, usually people can't justify spending so much on tubes and effort on modding these little amp's (or other cheap one's of the equivalent), but for me these are pretty fun sounding, sure it doesn't beat $500-1000 hp tube amp's, but the fun factor with experimenting with cheaper is extremely rewarding especially after each slight sound improvement, not to mention if it breaks only $50-100 gone and you can use the tubes else where. You make a mistake on a $500-1000 amp, their goes a large wad of money.


----------



## Evshrug

Very nice of you, DefQon, to adopt this thread. Keep up the good work *thumbs up!*


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Very nice of you, DefQon, to adopt this thread. Keep up the good work *thumbs up!*


 
  Cheers, shame I didn't help along earlier in this thread.


----------



## Leonarfd

Very satisfied with my Bravo Audio Ocean, anyway to mod it to get away the pop when i turn it on/off`? Right now I just unplug my headphone before starting/turning off.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





leonarfd said:


> Very satisfied with my Bravo Audio Ocean, anyway to mod it to get away the pop when i turn it on/off`? Right now I just unplug my headphone before starting/turning off.


 
  Mod the switch for soft start.


----------



## Leonarfd

Hehe, quite noob in the modding world. The hardest ive done is to switch op-amps in the past. Can you explain it abit more?


----------



## Evshrug

Just saying, unplugging your headphones before switching the power is generally the best practice, safer for your headphones (and hearing).
I've read about time delay circuits (like used in HT receivers, y'know how you turn them on, and after 2 seconds you hear a click and then the speakers go live?) and fade-in/fade-out that eases the power draw as you switch the power on/off. I don't know if those are built-in to potentiometers (I bet it is in some) or a separate circuit onto the PCB board, but you'll probably figure it out if you look for them.


----------



## johnnyb3

I had a similar problem and it was the power supply. Contact the seller; they're pretty good to deal with.


----------



## blazingazn

Just burned this in for 20+ hours.  Definitely helps to burn in your tube amp.


----------



## DefQon

Definitely, especially for the tube let it heat up, longer is better as some of the NOS tubes haven't been in use for 40 years or so.


----------



## blazingazn

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Definitely, especially for the tube let it heat up, longer is better as some of the NOS tubes haven't been in use for 40 years or so.


 
   
  Hey Def,
   
  When I'm tube rolling do I have to have music playing to warm up a Tube or can I just switch the Amp on and leave it on for like 15 minutes?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> Hey Def,
> 
> When I'm tube rolling do I have to have music playing to warm up a Tube or can I just switch the Amp on and leave it on for like 15 minutes?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  You can leave it on, though in my case it seems to warm up faster (the background buzz goes away faster anyway) when music is playing. I always turn my amp off before replacing a tube, turn it on and let it warm up (maybe eat a snack), then bias the tube. Correct biasing makes a huge difference compared to tuning it by ear.


----------



## viveksaikia22

My Bravo Audio Ocean tube amp was delivered today. This is my first foray into the tube world and I am already loving it!
  Just to satisfy my inner DIY'er, I have just ordered the following components for mods -
   
  1. Panasonic Capacitor 25volts 2200uF
  2. IRF510PBF Mosfet
  3. Panasonic Capacitor 3300uF 35V
   
  I am not very much familiar with tube rolling and bias setting, so would like to check out the stock tube fr some time and would research on tube rolling at the same time.
  My HD600 will be delivered tomorrow. Excited to pair them with this little tube amp!


----------



## DefQon

No IRL510?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> Hey Def,
> 
> When I'm tube rolling do I have to have music playing to warm up a Tube or can I just switch the Amp on and leave it on for like 15 minutes?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  The essential point of tube warmup is so the tube adjusts to it's nominal bias level before playing. If you haven't noticed if you turn on a tube amp and expect music to be instantly coming out, there isn't any music coming out till a few 10-15 seconds later, usually channel by channel slowly. It's like starting up your car in a cold morning and driving off instantly, instead of a good few minutes of combustion burn-in. The same goes if you wake up early for work and you don't drink coffee, you need that catalyst to get you started for the day.
   
  15 minutes is a little too long, a minute or two for start up phase before playing music is about the right time.


----------



## Bassmntmuzik

Whats better as far as quality, and mod capabilities, Bravo Ocean, or Bravo V2?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





bassmntmuzik said:


> Whats better as far as quality, and mod capabilities, Bravo Ocean, or Bravo V2?


 
  Both should be about equal to amount of mods available but to be honest it's hard to say, dropping in a better tube is a bigger enhancement than anything else. Quality wise the Ocean is by far better, sound/performance ratio wise after mods the Bravo v2, but it's a hard one to decide.


----------



## viveksaikia22

Quote: 





defqon said:


> No IRL510?


 
  Didn't find IRL510 anywhere just got the IRL510PBF from Mouser.
  I am wondering if it is even compatible. Anyone?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





viveksaikia22 said:


> Didn't find IRL510 anywhere just got the IRL510PBF from Mouser.
> I am wondering if it is even compatible. Anyone?


 
   
  Any IRL510 is good, they are all the same and within -+1% tolerance of each other on spec sheet. You originally said you purchased IRF510 which is why I quoted and said why no IRL510's?


----------



## Makiah S

ooh guys I'm buying a Hifiman Ef2A with Mullard tubes soon . I'm curious to see how it compares to my Indeed g3 [seeing as the Ef2A is costing me as much as the indeed did] but man I do love the wide array of $100 Tube Hybrid amps out there ^^


----------



## Bassmntmuzik

Can Someone list the best tube amps for under $120?


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





bassmntmuzik said:


> Can Someone list the best tube amps for under $120?


 
  haha, I'm trying to figure that one out my self.
  But the best amps under $120 are used ;3


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> ooh guys I'm buying a Hifiman Ef2A with Mullard tubes soon . I'm curious to see how it compares to my Indeed g3 [seeing as the Ef2A is costing me as much as the indeed did] but man I do love the wide array of $100 Tube Hybrid amps out there ^^


 
   
  Don't waste your money on the EF2A, it's a rubbish amplifier for the price. Look at the reviews.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ^ of this amp design, I would prefer an Indeed G3, because it has many upgraded components (resistors, low-noise power supply, capacitors, MOSFETS) two inputs & outputs, a switch to enable 6DJ8 or 12AU7 equivalent tube families, a bass/treble boost function that adjusts itself based on overall volume setting, a power-on safety delay to prevent the "pop!" that can damage your headphones and hearing, and more. The bravo made some improvements from their original release, and they're a bit cheaper, but unless you have modding skills I suggest you buy the Indeed version. If you read back through this thread, starting at the beginning or middle when these amps were most popular, you'll see that many people came to this conclusion. Particularly look for Judge Buff's posts, he ended up buying a few of each kind of amp.


 
  Thanks for the props, Ev! I just like tinkering with these amps, and listening to great tubes.
   
  Listen y'all, The G3 is the best bang for the buck as it gives you TWO families of tubes to roll, and is pretty easy to mod if you want. Just swapping out capacitors makes huge differences, but you need quality components as replacements. If your funny looking little tube amp takes 12au7 and equivalents, I'm partial to RCA blackplates as early as you can get them (1950s) and pulled organ tubes are OK in this regard as bargain valves. You generally can't beat a RCA clear top either.If your amp takes 6dj8s, you can't go wrong with a Holland Phillips/Amperex valve ECC88, E88CC, or whatever you can afford. Siemens marketed as RCA 6922s are incredible.
   
  Oh and using tubes that are worth more than the amp? Yeah, I have several that are worth more, my fav being a Mullard E188CC that I got for a song. It gets an hour or two a month and is silk in the mids and sweet everywhere else. Most Mullards can tame bright phones and are sex in your ears for R&B, and Blusey music. The best advice I can give is the same type of response that Mark Twain once gave to someone who asked for investment advice. He told them to buy land, as THEY AREN'T MAKING ANYMORE. These tubes are the same way. I don't buy the new tubes hype. As an old guy, I like using antiques...
   
  When you buy tubes, _any tubes_, make sure that the tube is balanced, with values less than 10% apart. One triode at 137% and the other at 90% will require you to bias the tube. If you can't bias the tube with a multimeter or _by ear_, don't waste your money. Read all over the net about tubes from anyone that has a site with information about the tube families. _Study_ the architecture of each tube or just your favorite tubes. I've got tubes that have no labels that are amazing! I get excited about finding a NOS Siemens for $7 that I recognized from the architecture alone. I'm approaching 160 tubes and I've never paid more than $35 (as I remember), and that was for a pair. 
   
  This isn't life or death. Have fun! Experiment. Learn how to solder. Buy a Voskhod 6n23p from the 80s or before. Keep looking for a 6n23p-ev from Voskhod... If you find one, PM me  , but buy a Reflektor 6n23p-ev from the 70's or 80's while you are looking. Awesome valves.
   
  If I can help, PM me. I check hf every couple of weeks.
   
  If you want to _know_ about tubes, _study _about tubes y'all. Google works.


----------



## Evshrug

He's BACK! The original nut'n fancy nut!


----------



## DefQon

I absolutely hate it when you buy a tube that sounds so good that you want another pair but with the lettering rubbed off their is no way to identify it even comparing the inside structures be it a tin-foil/d/halo (o) getter, double/triple mica, grey/black short/long/ladder plates, smoked, grey glass, clear top, gold pinned, diamond/etched base.....


----------



## blazingazn

Anywhere else to buy an Indeed G3 other than eBay?
   
  I'm in love with my Bravo V2 but I want to sell it locally and grab the better built Indeed G3


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





defqon said:


> I absolutely hate it when you buy a tube that sounds so good that you want another pair but with the lettering rubbed off their is no way to identify it even comparing the inside structures be it a tin-foil/d/halo (o) getter, double/triple mica, grey/black short/long/ladder plates, smoked, grey glass, clear top, gold pinned, diamond/etched base.....


 
  I get ya... But there are _INCREDIBLE _bargains out there and all it takes is identifying the "tell." Just like in human behavior, there are tells in tubes. If at tube is blank but the top seams are described as a cross or an "X," my first thought is Siemens? Smoked, my first thought is GE, especially if the flashing is almost half the glass' length. Etc, etc...
   
  Have I missed identifications, you bet! But even with most of my mystery valves, I like the output. And I bet that if you "get into" a couple of tube brands/types, you'll start noticing them in auctions. Sometimes, they can be gotten for ridiculously low prices. Along with the hobby of these small amps, my other hobby in this regard is collecting the tubes themselves.
   
  The most difficult thing for me in collecting valves, is my inability to convince my wife of the _inherent worth_ of the tubes themselves. Therefore, I've gotten rather adept at _sneaking_ them into the house...


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Thanks for the props, Ev! I just like tinkering with these amps, and listening to great tubes.
> 
> Listen y'all, The G3 is the best bang for the buck as it gives you TWO families of tubes to roll, and is pretty easy to mod if you want. Just swapping out capacitors makes huge differences, but you need quality components as replacements. If your funny looking little tube amp takes 12au7 and equivalents, I'm partial to RCA blackplates as early as you can get them (1950s) and pulled organ tubes are OK in this regard as bargain valves. You generally can't beat a RCA clear top either.If your amp takes 6dj8s, you can't go wrong with a Holland Phillips/Amperex valve ECC88, E88CC, or whatever you can afford. Siemens marketed as RCA 6922s are incredible.
> 
> ...


 
  Yeap, the G3 is hot magical sex Hybrid tube awesome ness! Mine came modded with easy tube rolling . All I need is a multi meter
   
  also DUDE AWESOME tip! Balanced tube... makes perfect sense. ButJudge Bluff you and I need to start and Indeed G3 thread
   
  In addition I did NOT jump on the EFa2. Instead I might try a MMHS for about $100 as well with custom tubes... but I'll haev about $200 dollars so I might try to get a Little Dot Mk III :O and go REAL tube instead of hybrid 
   
  but that won't be for another month.. for now it's just standard Indeed G3 with a Harmonics EH6992... I am getting a DAC so that will make the tube work better <3


----------



## Judge Buff

Back in 2010/11, _whenever it was that I purchased my G3_, I made a deal with the Indeed guy, _whoever he was/is_, and I got a deal on a second G3 sans power supply. Its a virgin; pristine and never used. (I think I got both of them for ~ $120.) Ready for modding.
   
  As soon as I get a little time on my hands, I may have to start creating another hybrid FrankenAmp. Hmmmmm... maybe its time to start scoping out the component sources.
   
  To the Man Cave!


----------



## Evshrug

judge buff said:


> To the Man Cave!




Lol, do you use a piano to unlock the door? There is just something about imagining Batman as an audiophile that gives me the giggles!

The Joker: "Youuuu must be joking?!"
The Batman: points to ears and smiles.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> Anywhere else to buy an Indeed G3 other than eBay?
> 
> I'm in love with my Bravo V2 but I want to sell it locally and grab the better built Indeed G3


 
  ebay or the F/S section....you can still retain your tubes for the G3.
   
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> I get ya... But there are _INCREDIBLE _bargains out there and all it takes is identifying the "tell." Just like in human behavior, there are tells in tubes. If at tube is blank but the top seams are described as a cross or an "X," my first thought is Siemens? Smoked, my first thought is GE, especially if the flashing is almost half the glass' length. Etc, etc...
> 
> Have I missed identifications, you bet! But even with most of my mystery valves, I like the output. And I bet that if you "get into" a couple of tube brands/types, you'll start noticing them in auctions. Sometimes, they can be gotten for ridiculously low prices. Along with the hobby of these small amps, my other hobby in this regard is collecting the tubes themselves.
> 
> The most difficult thing for me in collecting valves, is my inability to convince my wife of the _inherent worth_ of the tubes themselves. Therefore, I've gotten rather adept at _sneaking_ them into the house...


 
   
  Yeh I've had almost a box full of tubes at one stage that had no identification, although I was able to identify a few by it's sound signature, but the most interesting 12AU7 tube I have ever heard and I do regret selling it off was a completely smoked, brown military based ECC82, this thing was covered in what you can call burnt charcoal. Even the original tube seller didn't have any way of identifying it besides it sounding very very good, giving his Tele and Gold Lions a run for it's money and testing strong on his Hickock, he had 3 so he sold the pair. I bought 1 and had to sell it off for a few reasons....I'm still pissed off at myself to this day that I sold it off. The other time was having a tube blow up on me, yes top getter area of the mica's shattering the glass whilst in my amp....supposedly the seller said it was a 7AU7 tube instead of 12AU7 which he sold me, sounded good and again no identification whatsoever.


----------



## SOJEK88

Hej guys i want to present you my version of bravo V2 
  here it is :
  http://www.picshot.pl/view/full/20250_vskgg
  http://www.picshot.pl/view/full/20251_s7su9


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





sojek88 said:


> Hej guys i want to present you my version of bravo V2
> here it is :
> http://www.picshot.pl/view/full/20250_vskgg
> http://www.picshot.pl/view/full/20251_s7su9


 
  Holy crap, BG's in the Bravo? You're definitely one step more overkill than myself with the capacitors. haha
   
  Good job, but those 2 cap's in between the LM317's you could've just changed them for a trimpot.


----------



## stupidmop

Quote: 





sojek88 said:


> Hej guys i want to present you my version of bravo V2
> here it is :
> http://www.picshot.pl/view/full/20250_vskgg
> http://www.picshot.pl/view/full/20251_s7su9


 
  Beautiful! Does the acrylic cut easily? Bet that sings


----------



## Makiah S

Guys we need a indeed g3 section... N i need to learn how to Identify tubes!


----------



## stupidmop

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Guys we need a indeed g3 section... N i need to learn how to Identify tubes!


 
  +1 on the G3 thread. Got one on the way for while I'm modding my v2, which will be a slow process. Just ordered some amperex a frames from the 70's. Judge buff's tube descriptions have helped me quite a bit.


----------



## Makiah S

Ooh nice


----------



## SOJEK88

DefQon - between the lm317 - are nichicon muse ES , bi polar caps , very clear sounding caps.
 stupidmop - yeah very easy 
   
i feel my bravo have all the best parts , i use tube 12AU7A sylvania 1960 r.  , But use only with PC , its good amp but not the best ofcourse    For me Have a lot of good things like  SIZE and simply-build , but doesnt sound so good - as i want too .
   
I have integrated music card , but im waiting for sound blaster audigy4 - so i check then HOW bravo really works ))
   
i've got IRL510 too P


----------



## Makiah S

Nice let us know how it goes. Im getting an odac an millet starving student soon myself


----------



## axizor

I'm thinking about the Indeed G3. Is that the best choice for the ~$100 price range?
   
  Is the factory tube good enough? If not, what tube would you guys recommend? I want something with good bass, but still good in the other areas.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Makiah S

axizor said:


> I'm thinking about the Indeed G3. Is that the best choice for the ~$100 price range?
> 
> Is the factory tube good enough? If not, what tube would you guys recommend? I want something with good bass, but still good in the other areas.
> 
> Thanks


 I like factory tine... N the indeed has a Bass boost button to!


----------



## DefQon

If you want good sound and build quality ~without modifications out of the box. The Indeed G3 and Sunrise II amp are two very hard amp's to pass by.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> If you want good sound and build quality ~without modifications out of the box. The Indeed G3 and Sunrise II amp are two very hard amp's to pass by.


 
  i've heard good things about the sun rise II as well!


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> i've heard good things about the sun rise II as well!


 
  I wonder if we could pick and choose components off of a parts list, such as the board, acrylic case and heatsinks, et.al, and let us populate the board with our handpicked components...
   
  Quote: 





sojek88 said:


> DefQon - between the lm317 - are nichicon muse ES , bi polar caps , very clear sounding caps.
> stupidmop - yeah very easy
> 
> i feel my bravo have all the best parts , i use tube 12AU7A sylvania 1960 r.  , But use only with PC , its good amp but not the best ofcourse    For me Have a lot of good things like  SIZE and simply-build , but doesnt sound so good - as i want too .
> ...


 
*SOJEK88, *Sylvanias are generally very good 12au7s. I have a few of them. If that is the only tube you've really listened to, though, you are missing out on _many, many* *awesome_ tubes! Each has it's own pros & cons. The reason DefQon mentioned replacing the Muse ES with pots (potentiometers or variable resistors) is that doing so allows you to _adjust_ the bias on your tube, IIRC. Unless those caps are providing the _perfect_ bias, your 60 Sylv can _sound even better_.
   
  Your amp is awesome, by the way! I am not being negative about using pots instead of caps. I would have put the caps _in the same circuits on the bottom of the board_ and pots on top. This gives you the benefits of both components and its only $2 more to have done it.
   
  EDIT: I just saw the G3 in the Bay with a late 50's 5814 GE as the tube. This is much better than ANY recent Russian tube as a choice. You may get a decent valve with an Electro-Harmonix and you may not. Either way, the valve from the 50s is worth more and should sound much better (balanced, and biased properly) than any EH 12au7. By corollary any balanced vintage 6922 (that comes from one of the major players) will beat an EH 6922. In fact, I don't want any Russian tube made after 1994.
   
  BTW, I remember 1960, *SOLJEK88*... I already had my first microscope. I was 5.


----------



## Makiah S

wow nice nice, I think I'll enjoy my lil Hybrid tubes with stocks for a while as... well ME BROKE! And adjust teh bias on my G3 is a PAIN it takes FOREVER <.< I can't afford a digi multi meter atm either. Still if only my car didn't need a fixin -.-


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> i've heard good things about the sun rise II as well!


 
  The Sunrise amp is the best out of the Bravo/Indeed lot. 
   
  Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Either way,* the valve from the 50s is worth more and should sound much better (balanced, and biased properly) t*han any EH 12au7.


 
  Ditto.
   
  Quote: 





mshenay said:


> wow nice nice, I think I'll enjoy my lil Hybrid tubes with stocks for a while as... well ME BROKE! And adjust teh bias on my G3 is a PAIN it takes FOREVER <.< I can't afford a digi multi meter atm either. Still if only my car didn't need a fixin -.-


 
  A digital multimeter can be had for less than $15.


----------



## blazingazn

You can go on eBay and get a multimeter for about $5.
   
  Would it be fair to say the Indeed G3 is a good middle ground overall?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> You can go on eBay and get a multimeter for about $5.
> 
> Would it be fair to say the Indeed G3 is a good middle ground overall?


 
   
  I don't trust the flimsy $5 ones on ebay, had one before and gave me incorrect readings. 
   
  What do you mean by good middle ground?


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





blazingazn said:


> You can go on eBay and get a multimeter for about $5.
> 
> Would it be fair to say the Indeed G3 is a good middle ground overall?


 
  yea... I wouldn't trust that...
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> I don't trust the flimsy $5 ones on ebay, had one before and gave me incorrect readings.
> 
> What do you mean by good middle ground?


 
  I think it's the best of both. The Bravo is SUPER modable, the sunrise sounds good and the Indeed in between those two.
   
  Still though I'm having a 12-ua7 millet Max hybrid shipped out to me today so... I like my indeed but I still want something well better [the millet comes with some nice tubes and I (once again) got it pretty cheaply. Same price as my indeed]) as I really hate adjusting the bias on the indeed -.-. It's going to b my primary EDM tube. I might look into a better tube for edm. Airy'r highs bigger (but still tight) bass...
   
  any suggestions on a bass head tube ;3


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> yea... I wouldn't trust that...
> I think it's the best of both. The Bravo is SUPER modable, the sunrise sounds good and the Indeed in between those two.
> 
> Still though I'm having a 12-ua7 millet Max hybrid shipped out to me today so... I like my indeed but I still want something well better [the millet comes with some nice tubes and I (once again) got it pretty cheaply. Same price as my indeed]) as I really hate adjusting the bias on the indeed -.-. It's going to b my primary EDM tube. I might look into a better tube for edm. Airy'r highs bigger (but still tight) bass...
> ...


 
   
  Amperex, Mullard, RCA or GE's.


----------



## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> ... as I really hate adjusting the bias on the indeed -.-. It's going to b my primary EDM tube. I might look into a better tube for edm. Airy'r highs bigger (but still tight) bass...
> 
> any suggestions on a bass head tube ;3



What about mids? You'd like more mids alongside more treble and more bass, right?

Anyway, check out an Amperex or British Mullard for a warmer signature, but the difference is going to seem like less than double the "gain" of any one short range of frequencies. Nothing's really going to be "vibrating the trunk" car subwoofer basshead, so I'm just cautioning you to manage expectations.

Also, really, just get a multimeter. Yeah, I got one of those $5 multimeters (a black one on amazon), yeah, maybe I risked getting an inferior product, but mine zeros at zero when the probes don't have contact, and it makes biasing much faster and more accurate than I was able to adjust by ear. I don't intend any other uses for it, so... $5 seems about right.


----------



## blazingazn

Quote: 





defqon said:


> I don't trust the flimsy $5 ones on ebay, had one before and gave me incorrect readings.
> 
> What do you mean by good middle ground?


 
   
  Indeed G3 I meant in terms of overall quality version cost.
   
  Seems like most agree in that regard.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> any suggestions on a bass head tube ;3


 
  While all valves "color" the audio in some manner (It _is_ called "tube sound."), what an audiophile craves is to hear it as it was recorded. Pure and pristine... Yeah, that being said, we do have our individual tastes in audio. The clear, crispness of a telefunken might make a basshead shelve the tube as defective. All components from the power supply to the type of material the phones are made from affect the final rendering of the audio (including the vagaries of each person's ears).
   
  Evshrug is dead on with his assessment about bass levels. I don't know of a "bass tube," but a GOOD audio 10K cap off the PS is a great way to _start_ improving the bass in your setup. My advice is make your setup as clean and detriment free as you can, then buy yourself a set of cans that are marketed to bassheads.
   
  My college freshman wanted studio beats for her recent birthday (at ~$285, ain't no way) and though I had NO intentions to buy them, I did demo them. They *are *the headphone equivalent of subwoofers and mid-bass speakers loaded into a car, albeit cleaner sounding. I only needed about 7 seconds of Alicia Keys singing "No One" to decide that a lot of professional athletes will be deaf before they're 40 and/or suffer from _dementia pugilistica. _OMG!
   
  If your pocketbook says no to beats, there's always skullcandies or stuff with EB attached to it. If you get something else, closed cans boom better IME than open ones. YMMV
   
*EDIT: *I've been using this MM for over 2 years: 
 *Cen-Tech 7 Function Digital AC/DC Multimeter 90899* Google it...


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> While all valves "color" the audio in some manner (It _is_ called "tube sound."), what an audiophile craves is to hear it as it was recorded. Pure and pristine... Yeah, that being said, we do have our individual tastes in audio. The clear, crispness of a telefunken might make a basshead shelve the tube as defective. All components from the power supply to the type of material the phones are made from affect the final rendering of the audio (including the vagaries of each person's ears).
> 
> Evshrug is dead on with his assessment about bass levels. I don't know of a "bass tube," but a GOOD audio 10K cap off the PS is a great way to _start_ improving the bass in your setup. My advice is make your setup as clean and detriment free as you can, then buy yourself a set of cans that are marketed to bassheads.
> 
> ...


 
  -.- I'm well aware of that my friend. I own the Dt 880 Pro 250's and THEY DEMAND CLEAN PRINSTINE NON EQ'd TUBE sound. But for my Xb 700s and soon to b my Dt 990s [because I ONLY LIKE Non linear bass when I listen to techno] So yea, for my Techno an Edm cans I'd like a bassier tube. I have a lame ole Harmonix EH6992 in my indeed and I'd like a tighter bassed tube and one with a little more airy highs. And I don't expect a HUGE imporvement just something a little tighter in the bass and airy in the Highs. as my Indeed G3 has a "bass boost" on it so it's my EDM tube hybrid Amp and that being said a better tube would be worth while for it
   
  Now Judge Bluff, I'm at 2k posts SO  I know my bass Head Cans as well as what kind of bass I like. I enjoy Closed and Open Bass, I actually like open bass a little over  closed, since it's a little tighter. But I do have the cans for BASS HEAD. Just not a good cleaner tube [because that is a good point u made] for use with a Bass Boost and Bass BOOSTED eq. An as I mentioned b4 I own an Xb 700 for Closed bass n I'm getting a dt 990 as a open mid bass can <3 [and yea I don't need more "mids" for my EDM as the tube already adds enough. N I like Super V Shaped techno xD]
   
  Now I'm getting a 12ua7 Millet Max WhipLash with  5963 RCA 12ua7s, so I'm hoping that will b a big improvement over my current EH6992 Indeed G3. My dt 880 Pro 250's [are as you all know very linear] N since they are not as warm as the 600 ohm they need a great tube! So I'm hoping the RCA 5962 12ua7 will add a little more mids to my dt 880s, in addtion I'm getting an oDac which should help two fold in line with my new Tube
   
  I will look into Mullards for my Indeed g3 [which is again my EDM techno only tube hybrid now <3] I was actually going to get a Hifiman Eh2A with Mullards... thankfully I didn't. But... Mullards  I'll look into it!


----------



## Evshrug

Mshenay,
I normally don't recommend this, but you already have a Sony XB series headphone and are asking for more bass, so...... did you consider a FiiO E07k or E17 as a DAC instead of the ODAC? They can both boost (or cut) bass and treble, and provide a line-out feed to your Indeed G3 for amping. I say I normally don't suggest this because I think you first need headphones suited to your taste, but you already have bassy headphones.

Judge Buff,
Have you ever HEARD a Sony XB500? Let me tell you... My GF's younger sister was having a birthday party, and a pair of her friends were providing amateur DJ-ing for the party. They had an XB500, which I had to try based on what I've read about them here. I HAVE NEVER — woah man. First, the earpads are VERY deep yet squishy, so it was like pressing thick-but-insubstantial pillows wrapped in cheap pleather against your ears. They mush down a LOT. Then I played some high-quality files from my iPod. The distortion was hilarious. Bass was *HUGEANDBLOBBEDTOGETHER,* somewhere around 3x perceived volume boosted over the rest of the frequency range and the actual song mix, and the treble roll-off started somewhere in the mids. Literally could not hear high notes, vocals were way recessed and hard to distinguish, overall the headphone is undefined and BASS BASS BASS! Take the Beats +18 dB or so bass boost and add another +9 dB (guessing). I got through a song and a half before getting huge headache and forgetting what gravity/equilibrium feels like. I read that the rest of the lineup isn't as bad, but the XB500 boggled my mind that something would be manufactured to sound like that, no holds barred hearing damaging sound garbage. I found the experience educational, but I was glad I played at a relatively low volume.


----------



## Makiah S

WELL, I WAS looking for more bass... but I guess I should have mentioned that I wanted a TIGHTER bass, My xb700 is enough bass for me now  but I'd like it to b a little tighter. The DT 880 pro 250s LINEAR bass has caused a love in me for TIGHTER BASS. So I'm getting a dt 990 FOR that TIGHTER bass... but I still love my xb 700 and will keep it. But again Mullards will be gotten [yea I don't want more bass any more, just tighter and mid bass [hence is why I want the and am getting the dt 990] 
   
  n YEA the xb 500 is INSAINITY... I've never heard it thankfully because it's a SUPER MUD CANNON xD
   
  Oh gawd, have you guys heard of these hybrids destroying dacs q.q. Some one told me Millet Maxes can destroys dacs q.q


----------



## KimcheeKowboy

Hello folks, after all the reading about the the v2 bravo tube amp is this: HRT Steamer II DAC + Bravo V2 Tube amp + Audio- Technica ATH-M50 = Thick Juicy Sound!!!!!!!


----------



## Judge Buff

Wow 2400+ in 8 months! I don't know whether to applaud you or feel badly for you...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I've only been around HF for 4 years, but I was buying audio equipment in the 1970s when I was stationed overseas after college. I haven't taken note of your equipment, as it's meh to me. If you like it, that's cool. If you don't, get something else. Anything you _have _doesn't make you anything... but a consumer.
   
  Seriously, you are a culinary student in one of the South's best playgrounds! My Mrs and her best friend have been on vaca in Myrtle Beach and Charleston all week! I really love SC. Just have fun! Turn off the computer and talk with real people in real time! I'm not picking on you, I swear. I tell my students and my two daughters at UGA the same thing on a routine basis (but it's usually geared toward texting). I apologize for the lecture. It's what I do, though, with young people. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Now, you can trade out your EH with anything and it will probably sound better. I almost got one in 09 (I think), but some great folks on this site talked me out of it. Long black plate RCA 12au7s are typically great in the low end. And while we're talking about those tubes, it's not 12ua7s as you have posted. I'm sure you'll get it _correct _by post 2500 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, and I'm B-U-F-F. A b-l-u-f-f is what lemmings run toward... No bluff here.
   
  Okay, I love Mullards, but I have many, many Heerlen Amperex/Philips tubes. The bass is very clean and tight on them, while the Mullies typically have a silkiness that affects the ends of the spectrum for me (as in roll-off); but they do produce great honey-toned mids. A lot of this has to do with the synergy in the system. Sometimes those cosmic tumblers just line up and sonic magic happens...
   
  But you can't go wrong with a sweet, balanced Amperex A Frame with a dimpled getter from Holland, though. The 6922s are typically smoother than the 6dj8s, but they are way too pricey these days. Enjoy!


----------



## Evshrug

Bluff? I thought poker, and I don't even like poker!

Also, my dad lives (near) charleston! If you think you lecture... Lol I absolutely love my dad, and he's full of so much wisdom it tends to burst out most of the time. Dinner tends to take a long time, but we digest his words with a healthy side of really great food. I joined Head-Fi around the time he moved south... 2009


----------



## Judge Buff

evshrug said:


> Bluff? I thought poker, and I don't even like poker!
> 
> Also, my dad lives (near) charleston! If you think you lecture... Lol I absolutely love my dad, and he's full of so much wisdom it tends to burst out most of the time. Dinner tends to take a long time, but we digest his words with a healthy side of really great food. I joined Head-Fi around the time he moved south... 2009




Ha! Yeah, it's a Dad/Grandad thing... I have three grandkids, too. They call me Buff Daddy. Only law enforcement guys that have known me for a long time call me Judge Buff, though. Anyway,

I just put a new 6n23p-ev in my G2 and even though it's not broken in (by me anyway), it is too good to comment on with all three of my cans. I get accused of hyperbole by the folks that spend $1000s on everything, but my little system loves these Ruskis. This one is wide, deep and stratospheric with great imaging. I also just got a couple of 68 non-ev that I get to ramp up this weekend. I also have a registered pkg at the PO that I suspect is two 80s -ev valves... Yeah, I've been on a spending spree: 6 Soviet tubes, two black plate 12au7, with a couple of 68 orange-globe,Heeren Amperex A-frames also in route. I almost sniped 4 RCA clear tops this afternoon but I talked myself down... The Mrs knows I've been "yard sale(ing)" on the Bay, as she puts it, and she's almost back home from SC. I'm glad this little amp has a lot of gain, as it may get loud in here if she sees my new little menagerie!

It's amazing how adjusting the bias can totally recreate a tube. Gotta do it, y'all! If you can't or don't, don't waste your $$ buying tubes to roll. It's a crap shoot without biasing and I'm not bluffing...


----------



## Evshrug

Where'd you get the -EVs? I saw tubemaze's listing, but those are from the 90's. Tempted anyway.


----------



## DefQon

Ebay has a few of them. the -ev extensions mean's the tubes were produced against military specs.


----------



## Judge Buff

evshrug said:


> Where'd you get the -EVs? I saw tubemaze's listing, but those are from the 90's. Tempted anyway.



Yeah, they are the youngest I would think of buying (1992). I took a chance and the two I got sound very clean. Sometimes, you just gotta go with your gut... I have two coming from the siberian shop that haven't surfaced yet. All of these are Reflektors. I sure would like to get a Voskhod ev, but they would go for $50 or more, I bet.


----------



## Makiah S

judge buff said:


> Wow 2400+ in 8 months! I don't know whether to applaud you or feel badly for you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I hear u. Trust me 14 hours of my day is spent in a kitchen. M yea im still new to this, n i appreciate ur lecturing! Now u mentioned philips i might look into those. N where my new 12ua7s not rca? My seller told me they where q.q


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> I hear u. Trust me 14 hours of my day is spent in a kitchen. M yea im still new to this, n i appreciate ur lecturing! Now u mentioned philips i might look into those. N where my new 12ua7s not rca? My seller told me they where q.q


 
  I hope they are, because they're legendary!


----------



## Evshrug

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRnpn4cJCLc&sns=em[/VIDEO]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRnpn4cJCLc&sns=em


----------



## Judge Buff

I knew I heard it somewhere...
   
  BTW, I've been listening to a Voskhod 6n23p today that is better sounding than the -ev's. It's a 1968. What ever(ett) happened to your 6n1p experiment. I was thinking that if the 6n1p was copasetic with the Bravo & Indeed amps, they would be utilizing them since you can buy 50 of them for $5... and $100 for shipping.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> I knew I heard it somewhere...
> 
> BTW, I've been listening to a Voskhod 6n23p today that is better sounding than the -ev's. It's a 1968. What ever(ett) happened to your 6n1p experiment. I was thinking that if the 6n1p was copasetic with the Bravo & Indeed amps, they would be utilizing them since you can buy 50 of them for $5... and $100 for shipping.


 
  You'd be seriously underpowering the Russian 6n1p's if you're using them in the Indeed amps (Bravo amp's don't take 6v tubes). 6n1p's are not 6dj8/6922 substitutes alot tube sellers on ebay say it is, they obviously don't know what they are talking about. A circuit designed for 6n1p's will not be able to take 6922/6dj8's without some modifications and 6922/6dj8 circuits might be able to take 6n1p's but seriously underpowered but can result in damage.
   
   
  http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/111210-replacing-6n1p-s-6922s-7308s.html


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





defqon said:


> You'd be seriously underpowering the Russian 6n1p's if you're using them in the Indeed amps (Bravo amp's don't take 6v tubes). 6n1p's are not 6dj8/6922 substitutes alot tube sellers on ebay say it is, they obviously don't know what they are talking about. A circuit designed for 6n1p's will not be able to take 6922/6dj8's without some modifications and 6922/6dj8 circuits might be able to take 6n1p's but seriously underpowered but can result in damage.
> 
> 
> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/111210-replacing-6n1p-s-6922s-7308s.html


 
  Yeah, that was my point about the companies not using them *and* they're really cheap. I warned Evshrug off of them the first time he mentioned it. 
   
  I have a Bravo that takes 6dj8s, and the V3 ships with a 6922. At least the one I just saw on the Bay does...


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Yeah, that was my point about the companies not using them *and* they're really cheap. I warned Evshrug off of them the first time he mentioned it.
> 
> I have a Bravo that takes 6dj8s, and the V3 ships with a 6922. At least the one I just saw on the Bay does...


 
   
  Fair enough, I'm actually glad companies out there except a select few are not using the 61np's. Reason why is because there are only two countries that manufactured them, China, Beijing and Shuguang labs and various old military labs in Russia. There are not many varieties as well and they sound meh. I've got 1 integrated amp that I rebuilt, takes 2 61np's and even looking around there are not many variants besides Svetlana's, Voshkods ev military's and normals, Beijing 61np with T extension (best quality out of the Beijing 61np's) and the Shuguangs based ones. No other European or American variants such as from RCA, Mullard, Amperex, Tele's, Brimar etc. But certain 61np circuits can be modded to take the closest matching 6922 variants through a few cathode resistor mods to drop the currents supplied direct from the trafo or bypassed through the choke. Either way I do not like them, regardless of how cheap they are. Cheap != Quality.
   
  Btw, which Bravo do you have that takes the 6DJ8's? I'm not aware of any bravo's v2 or later that takes the 6dj8's. Besides the v3.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Btw, which Bravo do you have that takes the 6DJ8's? I'm not aware of any bravo's v2 or later that takes the 6dj8's. Besides the v3.


 
  I have an old V1 and they are still being made: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAVO-AUDIO-V1-DELUXE-CLASS-A-EH-TUBE-DRIVEN-HEADPHONE-AMP-US-SALE-SHIP-NEW-/290853448667?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item43b8376bdb
   
   

  The link is to an "authorized" US distributor, apparently, but the picture is from bravodeal4you current eBay listing. It would appear they only have _one version_ that _doesn't_ take 6dj8s. Then again, they probably have variants of these still floating around with MkII or some other hokey designation.
   
*Note to the Mods: I know that we aren't to post eBay listings, but this isn't me advertising for Bravo. I'm just answering a question from a headphoneus supremus. In fact I think Bravo models are inferior to everything but Muse. Of course, all of these are made in a backroom of a building in Guangdong that can only be reached via an alley full of street urchins...*


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> I have an old V1 and they are still being made: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAVO-AUDIO-V1-DELUXE-CLASS-A-EH-TUBE-DRIVEN-HEADPHONE-AMP-US-SALE-SHIP-NEW-/290853448667?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item43b8376bdb
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  lawl, very true... I have a feeling teh Indeed g3's are made in the front room of that very same building lol


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> lawl, very true... I have a feeling teh Indeed g3's are made in the front room of that very same building lol


 
  LOL.


----------



## Evshrug

judge buff said:


> I knew I heard it somewhere...
> 
> BTW, I've been listening to a Voskhod 6n23p today that is better sounding than the -ev's. It's a 1968. What ever(ett) happened to your 6n1p experiment. I was thinking that if the 6n1p was copasetic with the Bravo & Indeed amps, they would be utilizing them since you can buy 50 of them for $5... and $100 for shipping.



Well, I talked to Zigis, and he confirmed the 6n1p (is that what you meant to type DefQon?) tube is *not* compatible. However he was of the opinion that it is a pretty good tube, but very few amps make use of it. $5 for 50 tubes... and $550 for shipping. Haha! Maybe the seller could combine shipping? But seriously, I think the seller tried to "hide" the cost of the tube within the shipping cost, I "won" the auction for $0.01, but shipping was $11. I KNOW that wasn't actually the shipping cost, because it took over a full month to arrive. I knew that going in, but for some reason I thought I'd be able to use the tube. Now, like an overexcited teenager, I've spent $11.01 on something I can't use in any way except for collecting (dust).


----------



## Makiah S

I got my new tube with RCA tubes, clear tops and 5963s. And it does sound very nice. The bass is slighty more detailed than on my crappy Haromix Eh6992 [or waht ever cheapo brand it is] but the mids r a little smoother as well as more treble extension. So I'm a happy camper [and technically I could swap one of my RCA clear tops into my indeed G3] but I'd rather stick with the 6992 tube


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Well, I talked to Zigis, and he confirmed the* 6n1p (is that what you meant to type DefQon?*) tube is *not* compatible.


 
   
  Yep my bad that's the tube I was meant to type properly.


----------



## viveksaikia22

I bought a Bravo Audio Ocean amplifier and did some heavy overhauling of the components.
  I did the following mods -
   
  1. Replaced the stock mosfet transister (IRF630) with the IRF510. This has opened up the highs considerably and have widened the soundstage.
  2. Replaced the 25v rated capacitors with 3300uF 35v panasonic capacitors. This has tightened the bass significantly. The flipside is that the top of the case doesn't closes anymore now due to the size of the capacitors. I prefer to keep them open as the amp runs quite cooler this way.
  3. I bought some NOS tubes from eBay. RCA and Sylvania tubes. They sound good with very well defined high end and a bit forward mids, but guess what!! I like the sound of the stock Chinese tubes more than these as they introduce a very sweet sounding distortion. Call me crazy.
   
  I am quite happy with my desktop set up paired up with my Sennheiser HD600s. Pure honey to the ears.


----------



## DefQon

I'm going to say this again. Replace IRF5/6XX with IRL510/N's or 530's.


----------



## Evshrug

viveksaikia22 said:


> I bought a Bravo Audio Ocean amplifier and did some heavy overhauling of the components.
> I did the following mods -
> 
> 1. Replaced the stock mosfet transister (IRF630) with the IRF510. This has opened up the highs considerably and have widened the soundstage.
> ...




You're crazy. You couldn't POSSIBLY have a taste for something different than me. No way, no how!
On another note, I haven't actually heard the Electro Harmonix. LoL!


----------



## Judge Buff

mshenay said:


> I got my new tube with RCA tubes, clear tops and 5963s. And it does sound very nice. The bass is slighty more detailed than on my crappy Haromix Eh6992 [or waht ever cheapo brand it is] but the mids r a little smoother as well as more treble extension. So I'm a happy camper [and technically I could swap one of my RCA clear tops into my indeed G3] but I'd rather stick with the 6992 tube



 
 Okay, consider this a Public Service Announcement. You truly owe it to yourself to demo at least one of the clear tops (if not all of them) for an extended period. On the 12V side of the house, these are some of the best sounding tubes you can find. They are unique, as tubes go, and they may just change your mind about always using the 6922 because they typically have a blend of clean smoothness and good detail. It sounds oxymoronic, but in my whacked-out G2, they are sweet, sweet, sweet. (Gotta bias... gotta, gotta bias) Even though they have great detail, you can listen to them for hours without treble fatigue. Mine have an excellent soundstage and they all image well. The bass on mine is tight and deep, but there isn't a lot of mid-bass "fog," that bassheads seem to like. This may be more of a function of the big caps I have installed than the tube, though. Yeah, I am a fan of these tubes. When I roll 12Vs, I keep coming back to the black plates and clear tops for lengthy periods (think days, not hours). If you don't want to "season" (break-in) your tubes by listening to music, just leave the amp on, with one in it, overnight. It's a Class A amp, so whether you're playing music or it's just on, it's always juiced the same. YMMV, but I bet there is at least one of your clear tops that will get your attention...


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Okay, consider this a Public Service Announcement. You truly owe it to yourself to demo at least one of the clear tops (if not all of them) for an extended period. On the 12V side of the house, these are some of the best sounding tubes you can find. They are unique, as tubes go, and they may just change your mind about always using the 6922 because they typically have a blend of clean smoothness and good detail. It sounds oxymoronic, but in my whacked-out G2, they are sweet, sweet, sweet. (Gotta bias... gotta, gotta bias) Even though they have great detail, you can listen to them for hours without treble fatigue. Mine have an excellent soundstage and they all image well. The bass on mine is tight and deep, but there isn't a lot of mid-bass "fog," that bassheads seem to like. This may be more of a function of the big caps I have installed than the tube, though. Yeah, I am a fan of these tubes. When I roll 12Vs, I keep coming back to the black plates and clear tops for lengthy periods (think days, not hours). If you don't want to "season" (break-in) your tubes by listening to music, just leave the amp on, with one in it, overnight. It's a Class A amp, so whether you're playing music or it's just on, it's always juiced the same. YMMV, but I bet there is at least one of your clear tops that will get your attention...


 
  Yea your right... I can buy a Digitial Multimeter... NOW and try those clear tops! Sadly my new 12ua7 Millext Max is NOT as powerful as my indeed G3 [but it does sound better]
   
  STILL Buff... my MAN I will TRY IT! [After I get my digital Multi-Meter] 
   
  What do I need to set the bias too... I was told 13.5v for 12 and 13.0v for my 6 circuit


----------



## stupidmop

I found it to be next to impossible to adjust the bias on the G3. I've been doing it by ear which I know isn't proper, but the one time I tried to probe underneath I hit the wrong spot and the amp shut down. Luckily I didn't fry it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. 
    I'd planned on installing leads like I saw in a pic in an earlier post but haven't had the time. Heard the project sunrise 2 was easy to bias so shot jeremy an email.Sure enough, easy as you could want. So I couldn't resist and bought one. Suppose to be here tomorrow. Can not wait.
    I love clear tops, very unique sounding tube. But my ken rad 5814s are almost a permanent fixture in my fournier. The sound is so rich and creamy, a delicious tube. RCA 5814 black plate has set up shop in my bravo. Love the bottom end.
    I've read the same on the bias setting. Hopefully I'll get my leads installed this weekend on my G3. Are there trim pots on the bravo V2? I can't find them anywhere. I read they're under the heatsinks but can't confirm.


----------



## Makiah S

stupidmop said:


> I found it to be next to impossible to adjust the bias on the G3. I've been doing it by ear which I know isn't proper, but the one time I tried to probe underneath I hit the wrong spot and the amp shut down. Luckily I didn't fry it
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 come to Jesus talk -.- I'm looking to adjust voltage set a multimeter to read voltage not ownslol


----------



## Judge Buff

mshenay said:


> I adjust the bias on my g3 easily when i got it... Now im using a $20 Walmart n radio shak meter... Both at 200 ohms. Black lead on the RCA out for ground... Red on the r13 spot... N im getiing no reading... Is it me,the cheap meter or my tube cuz i can't adjust the bias this time around...,n it was easy the first time... Still me n radio shak r having a come to Jesus talk -.-



Make sure the meter is set for 20V range. VOLTS not ohms. If this doesn't work, check for an internal fuse blowing. It happens... 
I try to set the bias ~11V - 13V on both 6/12 settings. I have never set both sides at the same exact bias because I don't have a perfectly balanced tube. I get the voltages very close to each other, then I listen to get the output levels ~ the same strength per my old fart ears. Typically for me this means the R side gets tweaked up/down after I know the L side is approx loud enough for the volume level the amp is on. When the R output is approx as strong sounding as the L and I like the result, I quit. The better the pots, the easier the tweak. The two sides may be several V different... Let me repeat that. There may be a large difference in each side's voltage level. I've got tubes that may be 4 or 5 volts apart. One side may be 12.4V and the other 16V+. 

This is why it's important to buy tubes that are close to balanced in triode emissions. The age and application of these used valves can cause big discrepancies. That's why many folks put a premium on mil-spec tubes as they are designed/made more rugged and why NOS is claimed all the time. If one triode is dying much faster than the other, you don't want the tube. 

Sorry for the long post...


----------



## Evshrug

Psssh, that's not a long post JB. Have you seen some of my posts? http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal/45#post_9210582

Interesting point about voltage biasing, then ear-biasing after that for volume matching. The two tubes I've rolled so far were both equally biased at 13v (6DJ8 variants), and I thought the meter did a far better job than my ears. Maybe I'll have to try it again with my problem-child Amperex, which has a weaker right channel (which of course doesn't help MY head's weaker right "channel"), though I've been addicted to my Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 (mil-spec like Judge Buff mentioned) for like... Months now.


----------



## Judge Buff

If you have a song that you really know, and you know how it "should" sound in each channel, it becomes much easier to tweak the volume level. I use "Sirius" by Alan Parsons, usually, just because it is short and I've been listening to it for almost 30 years... Your point about "your head's weaker right channel" is extremely important to old farts like me. I know my right ear is weaker than my left in several ranges of freqs.


----------



## Makiah S

Well buff, i took ur advice. The RCA 12ua7 clear top sounds awesome. N yea volts not ohms silly me

N dang i love how tough tight my 990s r with this tube. 

Still have 3 others to try..., might not though... To lazy sadly

I will say my 5963 rca is slightly warmer than my clear top. So i like the tighter crisper sound with this bass head can. Granted i miss the extra sexy mids, but tighter bass wins with my bass can

Still great deal i got on my millet hybrid... The extra tubes it had r loving the g3 n bass cans

Still have to c which tube my mad dog alpha will dig

I will also add i do like the 5963 rca better with my linear 880. Still the mad dog is apparently r warm linear... Man those might b some seriously sexy mids


----------



## Evshrug

Judge Buff,
I have a few songs I have analyzed intensely for years across different equipment (posted my "standard quality test playlist" back in 2009 when Head-Fi still had the ability for regular users to blog), and a few special Van Morrison songs that have always been part of my go-to "happy place" songs since my dad played them before I was born. Haven't messed with biasing recently, but from what I remember the difference during tweaking by ear was different types of static buzz if I went too far one way. Using the multimeter revealed the "sweet spot" and saved me a bunch of time, though I think I did go for a bit higher than 13.5 volts.

I also messaged the bugle boy's seller since nobody bid on the tubes, I missed the auction because I realized a little late that I had a job orientation today for the job that will replace Wendy's. The 6N23's also were dropped off at shipping today, no tracking number yet tho.


----------



## DefQon

@the guy on top biasing by ears......get yo'self a multimeter you fool.


----------



## stupidmop

Quote: 





defqon said:


> @the guy on top biasing by ears......get yo'self a multimeter you fool.


 
    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  If you're refering to me I got my leads installed today and can't believe the diff. I've got a decent multimeter i picked up from amazon(it says INNOVA 3320 iEquiss), I like it. Been going a year strong now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 
      Starting on your mod list for my V2 tomorrow. Thanks again btw. Doing the mosfets first. They are 510s per your suggestion.After hours of research on rockgrotto I determined the V2 had no trim pots. May add that to the list however my tubes are closely matched on the triodes so may not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got 510N mosfets. I need a few more tools but I've done more with less 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
      My G3 is now running a perfectly biased siemens 6922 gold pin 1955 i think. Holy wow. My first eargasm and it was everything I thought it'd be!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ordered a project sunrise 2 that was spose to be here today but this happens.
     Believe it or not peter from indeed told me to do the ear thing, after he had told me to use my multimeter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I knew better. Just a noob tool move 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   Regards,
   Mop


----------



## blazingazn

Just got 2 Sylvania Tubes and one Phillips Mullard.
   
  It DEFINITELY makes a huge difference in sound!
  I highly recommend you replace the stock tubes immediately with some well regarded tubes, it's a world of difference.
   
  Thanks to DefQon for his explanations and tube recommendations!


----------



## stupidmop

It's the #1 thing you can do to improve sound. Stock tubes leave a lot to be desired IMO. Defqon knows his shizzle


----------



## stupidmop

Is mouser the best place to source my parts? What brand capacitors and resistors should i be looking for? Thanks for any help


----------



## stupidmop

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Make sure the meter is set for 20V range. VOLTS not ohms. If this doesn't work, check for an internal fuse blowing. It happens...
> I try to set the bias ~11V - 13V on both 6/12 settings. I have never set both sides at the same exact bias because I don't have a perfectly balanced tube. I get the voltages very close to each other, then I listen to get the output levels ~ the same strength per my old fart ears. Typically for me this means the R side gets tweaked up/down after I know the L side is approx loud enough for the volume level the amp is on. When the R output is approx as strong sounding as the L and I like the result, I quit. The better the pots, the easier the tweak. The two sides may be several V different... Let me repeat that. There may be a large difference in each side's voltage level. I've got tubes that may be 4 or 5 volts apart. One side may be 12.4V and the other 16V+.
> 
> This is why it's important to buy tubes that are close to balanced in triode emissions. The age and application of these used valves can cause big discrepancies. That's why many folks put a premium on mil-spec tubes as they are designed/made more rugged and why NOS is claimed all the time. If one triode is dying much faster than the other, you don't want the tube.
> ...


 
  Mr. Buff,
    I bought a siemens 6922 gold pin, popped it in my indeed G3 and the left bias tops out at 12.69V. The other side goes 16+. So I set them both close to 11.5 but my question is should I return this tube and find a better one? Bought them on the bay from a fairly reputable seller and test results were good. They sound FANTASTIC but will life be shortened? Sorry about the multiple posts but I'm a noob


----------



## aroldan

FWIW, I rolled six tubes, including a RCA cleartop a Blackplate and Mullhard that I bought on Ebay but all of them suffered of channel imbalance. In some the imbalance is subtle, in others is really marked. That's why I stayed with the stock tube. I prefer sound balance over sound flavor.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





aroldan said:


> FWIW, I rolled six tubes, including a RCA cleartop a Blackplate and Mullhard that I bought on Ebay but all of them suffered of channel imbalance. In some the imbalance is subtle, in others is really marked. That's why I stayed with the stock tube. I prefer sound balance over sound flavor.


 
  As JudgeBuff stated, when buying tubes, you need to make sure you're buying balanced and tested tubes, usually sellers will mention such things on the description, sometimes the buyer will need to consult with the seller for more information because testing tubes for shorts, gas leaks and life rating is different to testing it and then hearing it. I have in the past spent over $150 on various 12AU7's before I got my Psvanes and Sophia's that were NOS grade but had channel imbalance and very loud background hums that burn-in did not fix.
   
  The 4 greatest 12AU7 improvements that you can drop into the Bravo, Indeed or Sunrise and be blown away by the sound I have tried are the expensive Telefunken diamond base with gold grids (very very expensive), the grade a Psvanes and Sophias (best of the modern day production tubes but superb sound quality for value), Amperex Budgle Boys from Holland manufacturing plants and the military grade triple mica O getter 1950's RCA's.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





stupidmop said:


> Is mouser the best place to source my parts? What brand capacitors and resistors should i be looking for? Thanks for any help


 
  I get mine from a few reputable sellers on ebay but also deal on diyaudio forums. The shipping prices from mouser is ridiculous unless you're playing one massively large order. RS-online is also a good source but don't expect to come across the boutique branded caps (Elna Silmics, Cerafine, Blackgate NX's, Nichicon Muse series and other NOS vintage Philips Roederstein/BC, Sprague brands etc.)


----------



## stupidmop

Thanks DefQon. My search begins...


----------



## Makiah S

aroldan said:


> FWIW, I rolled six tubes, including a RCA cleartop a Blackplate and Mullhard that I bought on Ebay but all of them suffered of channel imbalance. In some the imbalance is subtle, in others is really marked. That's why I stayed with the stock tube. I prefer sound balance over sound flavor.




My rca clear top has a nice Balanced sound i think n its in my g3. Although i use loudness button so i like my clear highend


----------



## Judge Buff

I'm going on H-F hiatus and I just wanted to give y'all something to mull over for a while.
   
  I've been scarfing-up 6dj8s out of the Bay and I saw a listing for a combo of "Two ECC88/6DJ8 Radio Tubes Tested Made in Germany & UK" This is the picture of the tubes that was posted. The *only* picture. I'm thinking, "That's great! An IEC branded Mullard and probably a Siemens, since I can see 'made in Germany' on it."
   

  The only real problem I saw was the vendor wanted $40 inc shipping for the pair. The Mullard appeared to have excellent graphics but the other looked rather nondescript... Read "unknown origin" since I didn't recognize the sparse labeling. The posting had a Best Offer available, so I low-balled a $27 offer, fully expecting it to be declined or ignored. The vendor came back with a counter of $31, so I'm thinking I'm on the right track with a decent Mullard & an unbranded Siemens. I started to jump on the $31, but I threw back a $30 offer and the vendor accepted it. The posting said that both tested "100%" which I was skeptical of, but I _took a chance_. Shipped with a 25% discount, I was expecting the Mullard to be the highlight of my dickering with this excellent AR vendor.
   
  The tubes came today... free 3 day shipping! Awesome! The Mully sounds like a GB Mully. Warm as a tweed jacket and mids that are honey sweet. Decent top end and decent bottom. A good $15 tube and a Mully! When I got the other tube out of its box, this is what I found
   
   

  It's a Tele! I totally missed the diamond outline. Even blowing it up, I couldn't see the diamond. But it sounds heavenly. Incredible range and soundstage. Balanced and detailed without grainy trebles or bloated bass. Really tight bass that thumps your ears and trebles that are distinct and clear. Oh yeah, this is easily the best Tele I have (of 4). It may not come out of this amp for a while. Heck, I may even get some new components and tinker on my G2 some more. But for right now, I'm just listening... and watching golf.
   
  Take a chance. You never really know what karma holds for you until you do. There is no growth without risk, you know. Later...


----------



## DefQon

Nice any number etched to the base of the tube?


----------



## Judge Buff

There's something between the pins, but I'm not going to hunt down a magnifying glass to see what it is.


----------



## Evshrug

Well JB, almost solely due to your prompting, I have 2 white-label bugle boy 6DJ8s and 4 Vokshod 6N23 tubes headed my way. The Russian tubes should arrive first, by Tuesday really, but the tracking number gives no shipping status info. I could possibly have saved a few bucks on the Bugle Boys by placing a bid and waiting 9 days for the auction to end, but I didn't want to get outbid and $17 isn't so bad for these. I won't have any brand surprises like you had (at least I hope not in my case), but I'm not trying as hard to get lucky deals like your $15 telefunken and that $200-value valve you got for also around $15, and neither am I trying to continually amass a large collection. How many tubes do you have now? Would you ever consider selling some tubes?

Do you think a 6DJ8 tube would fit inside a plastic film canister? I was thinking that might be a tougher case for shipping a tube, especially if I can fit a tissue inside as well to prevent any wiggling around, but tubes may be too long for a canister.

If H-F hiatus means you'll be away from the forums for a while, you will be missed, but if you can't be on Head-Fi without the temptation to spend money, then I understand if you might want to take a break.


----------



## stupidmop

I have more tubes than I'll ever be able to use, but it'more of a collecting hobby for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Starting on 6080 and it's variants because I just ordered a crack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Got all my parts ordered for my v2 mods. Changed the mosfets...great improvement. I read back through this thread till I was cross-eyed but it was invaluable. I know I'm late to the modding of this amp but I like modding things  Should I put in some bourn trim pots? I've got a bunch laying around but I kinda like not having to bias, guess I'm lazy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They are def going in my g3 when I get it back, I don't like those trim pots.
   
    Gonna miss your entertaining posts Mr. Buff, enjoy watching some golf! I'm hittin the course in a couple weeks. Where I live we still have a bit o snow on the ground but a guy can dream.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





stupidmop said:


> I have more tubes than I'll ever be able to use, but it'more of a collecting hobby for me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Back for a few minutes... Get the best pots that will fit. I'm getting up a Digi-Key order to start modding my unused, virgin G2. I'll be replacing the pots on my Frankenamp, too, as they have seen better days. 2 years old and decrepit... I appreciate the props, Mop. BTW, you need to get a new name. Stupid "anything" is just wrong to be called IMHO... I guess it's better than "Richard Head," though.
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> Nice any number etched to the base of the tube?


 
  In the diamond, there is a 5 in one end of an apex. If you turn the diamond 180* to the other apex, it looks like there is a very thin P. The 5 is definite. The P might just be an aberration in the glass. There isn't an aberration in the sound, though. Angels use these for choir performances...


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Back for a few minutes... Get the best pots that will fit. I'm getting up a Digi-Key order to start modding my unused, virgin G2. I'll be replacing the pots on my Frankenamp, too, as they have seen better days. 2 years old and decrepit... I appreciate the props, Mop. BTW, you need to get a new name. Stupid "anything" is just wrong to be called IMHO... I guess it's better than "Richard Head," though.
> 
> In the diamond, there is a 5 in one end of an apex. If you turn the diamond 180* to the other apex, it looks like there is a very thin P. The 5 is definite. The P might just be an aberration in the glass. There isn't an aberration in the sound, though. Angels use these for choir performances...


 
  dang I'm jelous e.e, although the way you described the tubes it sounds like my Clear Tops [I've yet to listen to all 4 of them] but they hace NICE tight bass great sound stage and nice highs! I enjoy them very much , If I hadn't BLOWN $200 on some stupid mmo [which I'm tellin you about so I NEVER DO IT AGAIN] I'd have mo cash for well HELL a freaking Project Sunrise 2 AND new tubes q.q. Still I should learn my tubes <3


----------



## stupidmop

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Back for a few minutes... Get the best pots that will fit. I'm getting up a Digi-Key order to start modding my unused, virgin G2. I'll be replacing the pots on my Frankenamp, too, as they have seen better days. 2 years old and decrepit... I appreciate the props, Mop. BTW, you need to get a new name. Stupid "anything" is just wrong to be called IMHO... I guess it's better than "Richard Head," though.
> 
> In the diamond, there is a 5 in one end of an apex. If you turn the diamond 180* to the other apex, it looks like there is a very thin P. The 5 is definite. The P might just be an aberration in the glass. There isn't an aberration in the sound, though. Angels use these for choir performances...


 
   Thanks, Nice score on the tube! Stupid Mop is a Pearl Jam song. It's an inside joke amongst my friends and it just stuck. They all call me Mop. I didn't choose the lame nickname, it chose me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe I'll change it to just Mop if they'll let me.
  Best,
  Mop


----------



## Radioking59

Quote: 





stupidmop said:


> Thanks, Nice score on the tube! Stupid Mop is a Pearl Jam song. It's an inside joke amongst my friends and it just stuck. They all call me Mop. I didn't choose the lame nickname, it chose me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I love it. I got the reference right away. Keep it!


----------



## stupidmop

Thanks! Nice avatar. No code is one of the best.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





stupidmop said:


>


 
  yea ignore Buff he's a cranky old fart ;3. Although he knows his tubes xD so he's always a joy to listen to... unless ofc he's giving us whimper snappers some life leassons lol [kiddin with ya buff <3 <3]


----------



## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> yea ignore Buff he's a cranky old fart ;3. Although he knows his tubes xD so he's always a joy to listen to... unless ofc he's giving us whimper snappers some life leassons lol [kiddin with ya buff <3 <3]



I haven't heard any reason to ignore him. I might listen and decide to do something else, but I don't find his advice or perspective dated (besides the fact that we're talking NOS tubes here). To say "Ignore the cranky old fart" is a dis-service to anyone new who might not understand your whole post was in jest.

Aaaaaany way, that out of the way, aren't most of us posting in the Bravo thread actually Indeed amp users? Maybe we should shift discussion over there and bring that thread back up to active status, since that's the one most of us recommend (unless you're buying to get a tube amp cheap as possible, and replace most of the parts yourself). Mshenay, i'm sure the thread would benefit from your G3 impressions. http://www.head-fi.org/t/484975/indeed-g2/45#post_9253441


----------



## stupidmop

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I haven't heard any reason to ignore him. I might listen and decide to do something else, but I don't find his advice or perspective dated (besides the fact that we're talking NOS tubes here). To say "Ignore the cranky old fart" is a dis-service to anyone new who might not understand your whole post was in jest.
> 
> Aaaaaany way, that out of the way, aren't most of us posting in the Bravo thread actually Indeed amp users? Maybe we should shift discussion over there and bring that thread back up to active status, since that's the one most of us recommend (unless you're buying to get a tube amp cheap as possible, and replace most of the parts yourself). Mshenay, i'm sure the thread would benefit from your G3 impressions. http://www.head-fi.org/t/484975/indeed-g2/45#post_9253441


 
  I'm modding my bravo. yes I have an indeed(defective) but I also have a fournier, crack, ps2,etc. i actually read all 128 pages of this thread plus all the links to the rockgrotto forum. I just like soldering  Most of my parts have been ordered or are here. I don't know a lot of audiophiles so this seemed like the best place to hang out. It sucks telling your friends about your new tube amp and them saying "what"?  ha Then tell em u replaced the mosfets and how much it extended the high frequencies on your ortho's and get a confused "cool" response lol. Inevitably all those coversations lead to them wanting to talk about beats by dre, which I've never owned.
   
  I'm a total noob,and maybe this is a no no, but I'm having discussions here, the sunrise2 thread, various fostex threads, and many others. Hopefully I'm not breaking any rules
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I've read many posts on here that I thought hey I could add to this discussion or learn somethin here but then I realize they are a year or 2 old. I was under the impression thread resurrection was frowned upon. Anywho I totally took the Buff reference as a joke. I've read the whole thread so I know better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I always find Judge Buff's posts intriguing, entertaining and informative. But u are absolutely right, I've gotten all the info I need from here. And cluttered up the info even more with this long winded posts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Thanks to all for the help!
   
  Best,
  Mop


----------



## Evshrug

Yo mop,
Not a dig on you, haha. You aren't breaking any posting rules I'm aware of, and I've recently had to reread them.

I also went back and read back through all the old posts in this thread, and there is some great modding advice... I'm not sure if it's on the Indeed thread too. Probably a modding summary on that thread in a new post would bring a lot of attention there. I'm not policing or anything, just noticing how many contributors have Indeeds, yet the indeed thread hasn't had any love for a while. Honestly, I don't use either amp, but I've learned a lot about tube amps that I've used from all the threads you mentioned, and I just end up posting here most often XD

Resurrecting dead question threads and the like is frowned on, but we've all done it once. Thing is though, this Bravo thread, the Indeed G2 thread I linked, and others that have reached lots of posts (like the V-MODA M100 thread, I was there when it was just a preview thread a year ago, and now WOAH!) become sort of the discussion and review landing pages for their respective products. So, it's not really like a zombie thread in that case.


----------



## stupidmop

Got ya


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I haven't heard any reason to ignore him. I might listen and decide to do something else, but I don't find his advice or perspective dated (besides the fact that we're talking NOS tubes here).  Mshenay, i'm sure the thread would benefit from your G3 impressions. http://www.head-fi.org/t/484975/indeed-g2/45#post_9253441


 
  xD I hear ya, well it's an ironic post people might read that... then read his LONG DETAILED post,,, and they would most likely figure I was joking e.e he ALWAYS posts in such a way that his knowledge is kinda obvious but not in your face. He commands that respect when it comes to tubes <.<
   
  and I might check those guys out! Instead of buggin u guys here on the Bravo thread, 
  Quote: 





stupidmop said:


> Anywho I totally took the Buff reference as a joke. I've read the whole thread so I know better


 
  Oh yea ofc, I have some love for buff and his tube knowledge :O I mean Man knows his TUBES! But I do hear you, as some ppl are to lazy  to read the whole thread. Plus he really does have some GREAT advice


----------



## Evshrug

stupidmop said:


> Got ya





(Now I'm thirsty, LOL)


----------



## amigomatt

I have just received my Bravo Audio Ocean and have been fully enjoying it playing my LPs and CDs through my brand new HifiMan HE-400 and my vintage AKG K240DF cans (the ones I bought the amp for, in the hope of more low end repsonse, which it has now).  I'm just using the stock tube at the moment, and I'm finding info about replacement tubes pretty confusing and complex.  If I'm wanting to retain or even improve the low end response more and gain some more detail and dynamics, is there a relatively cheap option for me to replace the tube with?
   
  Many thanks in advance for any advice!


----------



## DefQon

Ok I'll make it brief.
   
  The Bravo Ocean takes 12AU7 tubes. The 12AU7 tube is a miniature 9pin based dual triode which runs at either approximately 6.2-6.3v @ 300ma or 12.5-12.6 @ 150ma at the operating heater current (do note these are almost similar to your bias values). The European equivament of the 12AU7 is the ECC82 and then there are military equivalents with similar matching or a higher mu rating which are the E82CC/ECC802S (some are very long) and the 5814A's which are USA made.
   
  The best current in production 12AU7 tubes are made by Sophia Electric and Psvane, don't bother with Russian/Chinese reissues of older Mullards/Philips/Electro-Harmonix etc.
   
  The best NOS (new old stock) 12AU7 tubes are the rare 1950's Telefunkens ECC802S/ECC82's usually etched with a unique identifiable code on the diamond base. The prices for them are extremely expensive. $300-500 for a pair. Alternatively some of the really NOS level Amperex Holland plant manufactured Bugle Boys are very very good as well also quite expensive as well.
   
  You don't have to drop so much money on tubes since it's your first time and you are tube rolling in a cheap amp, there are plenty of $10-20 tubes on eBay that are worth a go and sound good most of the time.
   
  Just a beginner's list/info guide if you want to read a bit more:
   
  http://www.vacuumtubes.com/12au7.html


----------



## amigomatt

Thank you for the info. So, would something like this be an improvement over the stock valve? 

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=261185244722


----------



## amigomatt

Sorry, wrong link, I meant http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=261185244722&index=0&nav=WATCHING&nid=17551222857


----------



## Makiah S

I have what I think is a cheap RCA 12ua7a Clear Top tube in my indeed G3, and it sounds really wondeful!
   
  Great tight bass, smooth highs, lush punchy mids and awesome sound stage. My w1000x really lobes my indeed <3 <3


----------



## amigomatt

I've just noticed listening to a metal album through this amp, that there is bleed over to the left channel when a guitar riff is supposed to be just on the right.  It sounds like it's distorted and bleeding over to the other side.  This surely isn't right?  Does anyone know what this issue may be?
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





amigomatt said:


> I've just noticed listening to a metal album through this amp, that there is bleed over to the left channel when a guitar riff is supposed to be just on the right.  It sounds like it's distorted and bleeding over to the other side.  This surely isn't right?  Does anyone know what this issue may be?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 
  if the bass boost is on that would be the issue. The boost increases the voltage. I've actually measured during before and amp using bass boost and it does boost the bais by avout .2 volts so if one side slighty higher thant he other the bass boost would compound it, also is your tube a balanced tube. 
   
  Still I have that issue every so often, just check ur bias and re blance the tube. That should work!


----------



## amigomatt

mshenay said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for your help. I'm using the Bravo Audio Ocean. There's no bass boost on it and I'm running it straight from the pre out of an Arcam integrated amp, so no boost of any kind there either. 

I'm sorry, I'm a total noob with tubes and this is my first one. Do you have a link to any info about whether my tube is balanced/how to balance it etc.?! I'll go searching...


----------



## DefQon

You can balance the bias supply to both channels usually 12.5-13v for the 12AU7. That mean's you'd need to open the top half of the enclosure and using a multimeter to few a few resistor points near the LM317 mosfets. I think it voids warranty, but you can buy another 12AU7 tube and see if the bleeding is still present. The supplied Chinese tubes are that great. Even a $5 GE or RCA will sound better but offering different sound signatures. But I seriously doubt Bravo didn't balance these properly for you, another problem could also be the volume pot.


----------



## amigomatt

Quote: 





defqon said:


> You can balance the bias supply to both channels usually 12.5-13v for the 12AU7. That mean's you'd need to open the top half of the enclosure and using a multimeter to few a few resistor points near the LM317 mosfets. I think it voids warranty, but you can buy another 12AU7 tube and see if the bleeding is still present. The supplied Chinese tubes are that great. Even a $5 GE or RCA will sound better but offering different sound signatures. But I seriously doubt Bravo didn't balance these properly for you, another problem could also be the volume pot.


 
  Thanks again for your help.  I've just won this tube on ebay, seemed like a good deal?  I'll see how that goes before getting a multimeter and start learning how to tinker around inside!
   
  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-MULLARD-ECC82-12AU7-B329-VINTAGE-RADIO-VALVE-VALVES-TUBES-/261185244722?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=Saz2lICiN7%252BnCD1RMqOtzLje7Iw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


----------



## DefQon

Yes Mullards are quite good, warm with good low-end bass. Beware of modern Russian re-issues, they don't sound as good as the old NOS.


----------



## amigomatt

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Yes Mullards are quite good, warm with good low-end bass. Beware of modern Russian re-issues, they don't sound as good as the old NOS.


 
  Glad to hear that about the bass, that's exactly what my K240 DFs need!  How does one tell if they are modern Russian re-issues?  Do they look the same?


----------



## Evshrug

amigomatt said:


> Glad to hear that about the bass, that's exactly what my K240 DFs need!  How does one tell if they are modern Russian re-issues?  Do they look the same?



Usually sellers don't try to cheat you, you can ask about what year they were made. Generally you want stuff from before the 90's.
I'm not a pro with the 12AU7 tubes (wouldn't call myself a pro with the 6DJ8 type tubes/valves I buy, but I have learned over the past half year), but that Mullard looks pretty good. Generic box, but the worn label on the tube itself doesn't scream "FAKE!" to me, and if the test numbers are accurate the tube should work like new and not have a perceptible channel imbalance. Should sound good so long as it wasn't physically damaged or compromised. I bet you'll love it. Some day, you may want to try a leaner, more energetic tube too, just to have the option 

The tube that came with my amp came smashed, and the Amperex I first bought to try was warm but seemed to have a channel imbalance. I got a military-spec tube after that which was leaner & more energetic, I was amazed (& addicted instantly) by the detail retrieval and soundstage depth. Just recently I bought a pair of Amperex with the little bugle-blowing tube cartoon on it and four New Old Stock (NOS) Vokshod tubes from the 70's, haven't tested them all yet because I'm enjoying the first Bugle Boy I put in (which doesn't sound THAT much different from the Mil-spec tube I used before)

The Electro Harmonix that (I believe) came with your Ocean is a current production Chinese manufactured tube... Some people like 'em, but really they aren't held to high production standards and may account for the sound crossing over to the other channel. Hopefully it isn't an issue from the amp itself, I guess you're about to find out. Good luck man! 


Edit: Oh yes, DefQon mentioned biasing and using a multimeter, and you said you were a n00b. Basic explanation:
Inside your amp, there is probably two little components (called Potentiometers) with little screwdriver adjustment pins. Turn these to adjust how much voltage goes to each channel of the Tube, you want both channels equal at somewhere between 12.5 and 13 volts. You measure those volts using a multimeter, here's mine:

I got mine from Amazon for about $6 USD, works well enough for me. Those red & black wires with pins on the end are the test leads, you touch them to the part of the circuit path you are adjusting to get a reading (amp has to be turned on & warmed up, I turn on my multimeter by turning the dial to the 20 volt DC setting). I don't know where to take a reading on the Ocean, sorry. You could try tuning the tube by ear, I tried that but I couldn't get it to sound right (probably messed up my first Amperex tube that way too), using the Multimeter made a big difference.

Again, good luck! Hopefully that helped, and you now know what to search the 'net for to answer other questions.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





amigomatt said:


> Glad to hear that about the bass, that's exactly what my K240 DFs need!  How does one tell if they are modern Russian re-issues?  Do they look the same?


 
  Since the Russian reissues are current modern day in production tubes manufactured in Russia strictly according to Mullards spec sheets and QC testing, sellers on ebay will usually say re-issue or Russian re-issue on the description page or the title of the item being sold. If you're experienced with identifying tubes and the variances (which I am not) one can tell and compare from the logo printing/etched on the tube or date codes or part codes etched. Usually it will say Made In Russia on the tube though. Similar to my Gold Lion re-issues (duds now).


----------



## Evshrug

DefQon,
There are some current production tubes that sound pretty great though, right? Of course, they cost a lot more than the vintage tubes, and I don't think they outperform the rarer tubes from the heyday of tube audio.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> DefQon,
> There are some current production tubes that sound pretty great though, right? Of course, they cost a lot more than the vintage tubes, and I don't think they outperform the rarer tubes from the heyday of tube audio.


 
  The best current production 12AU7 tubes which is the only 12**7 variant tube of the dual triode family that I have a lot of experience with (but not a pro) today is the grade A Sophia and Psvanes, it knocks the socks easily off the vintage Holland Bugle Boys I had and gave the Telefunken smooth plates a run for it's money which is the second best lot of the Tele's money can buy NOS grade apart from the European military variant Telefunken's which costs a leg and arm to afford.
   
  Although the Psvanes and Sophia's don't come cheap as well $100 a tube, it does indeed easily best any of the cheap and expensive NOS I've tried only to ever lose to a rare unidentified Amperex my friend had which he said cost $250 for 1 tube, he still won't tell me what they are exactly and I'm betting my money that it's some rare-ass Bugle Boy from as early as 1940's, he runs a quad, 2 pair each in a pair of $35000 monoblocks he uses for his horns. 
   
  People tend to stay away from modern re-issues and stick by the good old statement that the older, the better i.e. NOS > reissues. This is not the case, a lot of people that use to run NOS Gold Lion 6DJ8's which cost heaps of $$$ would even agree the reissues sound almost identical, in some cases even better than the NOS, all comes down to the application and amplifier being used. 
   
  Although I have not tried many Russian reissues for the 12AU7 family, the EL84's I have, for example, the reissue Mullards and Philips sound better than the NOS grade Britain made Mullard and the Philips manufacture for 1970's Valvo, although the differences are not great, it's notable. There is no reason to think that reissues shouldn't sound better than NOS, with newer tech/equipment and better ways of fabricating valve tubes, and NOS supply running low as demand and interest continously grows, it will be a matter of time (not anytime soon though) that modern reissues will take over NOS variants.
   
  My 2c.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





amigomatt said:


> Thanks again for your help.  I've just won this tube on ebay, seemed like a good deal?  I'll see how that goes before getting a multimeter and start learning how to tinker around inside!
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-MULLARD-ECC82-12AU7-B329-VINTAGE-RADIO-VALVE-VALVES-TUBES-/261185244722?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=Saz2lICiN7%252BnCD1RMqOtzLje7Iw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


 
  i have one of those in my millet hybrid amp, they are a nice tube! Very warm and thick though, make sure to use them with a very lean can for an epic paring ^^


----------



## Judge Buff

mshenay said:


> yea ignore Buff he's a cranky old fart ;3. Although he knows his tubes xD so he's always a joy to listen to... unless ofc he's giving us whimper snappers some life leassons lol [kiddin with ya buff <3 <3]



Bwahahaha! Old fart? You bet. Don't get downwind... Whimper snappers? 



mshenay said:


> I have what I think is a cheap RCA 12ua7a Clear Top tube in my indeed G3, and it sounds really wondeful!
> 
> Great tight bass, smooth highs, lush punchy mids and awesome sound stage. My w1000x really lobes my indeed <3 <3




I thought you'd appreciate the clear-top sound... Good all round listening tube; smooth as silk panties :-o

Amigomatt's Mully is the real deal. If it is close to balanced and biased right, it is addicting for vocals, especially ladies! Good Mullies are like eating honey on an English muffin: really yummy, but really rich. The advice re brighter cans may be dead on, if it's too dark.

Hey y'all, I asked Evshrug to canvass for restarting the Indeed thread. I think that while these amps are the same basic design, the G2/G3 are a better deal than any Bravo unit and especially that crappy EQ model. (No offense to any owners). Lecky (an awesome Brit Indeed owner) had (has?) a thread out there. I should have split off in 2010, but it was just easier to post in the Bravo thread. If any Indeed folks want to start up a new thread, I'll support it. 

Cheers!


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Bwahahaha! Old fart? You bet. Don't get downwind... Whimper snappers?
> I thought you'd appreciate the clear-top sound... Good all round listening tube; smooth as silk panties :-o
> 
> Amigomatt's Mully is the real deal. If it is close to balanced and biased right, it is addicting for vocals, especially ladies! Good Mullies are like eating honey on an English muffin: really yummy, but really rich. The advice re brighter cans may be dead on, if it's too dark.
> ...


 
  Same here, the bravo is terribad b ut a popular thread. I started a new thread or better yet I made a review, we can use my review thread and continue it forward like a lot of ppl do
   
  interesting enough, the clear top is STILL warmer than the LEAN solid state I got. So that's nice! I'm w8ing for the L3k pads for my w1kx the pads are spoused to make the can warmer, so it should pair nice with the ss
   
  alsoi the dt 880 sounds REALLY nice out of the ss :O warmer than it does out of my THICK tube e.e


----------



## Oldoiler

Forgive me if this has already been answered, but with a 129 pages devoted to the Bravo, I've not been able to find it.
   
  I just received a V2 today and guess I got lucky, because it is dead quite (no static).  My question is, the stock tube does not glow at all from what I can see.  In other words, I have a Cary tube system as my main home audio system and those tubes obviously glow orange.
   
  I have looked at the stock tube on the Bravo V2 and I see zero glow from the heaters.   The blue LED is bright, but it would not "drown out" any glow from the tube if looked at closely.
   
  Thanks very much all


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





oldoiler said:


> Forgive me if this has already been answered, but with a 129 pages devoted to the Bravo, I've not been able to find it.
> 
> I just received a V2 today and guess I got lucky, because it is dead quite (no static).  My question is, the stock tube does not glow at all from what I can see.  In other words, I have a Cary tube system as my main home audio system and those tubes obviously glow orange.
> 
> ...


 
  ... buy a cheapo tube n see if it glow orange :O


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





oldoiler said:


> Forgive me if this has already been answered, but with a 129 pages devoted to the Bravo, I've not been able to find it.
> 
> I just received a V2 today and guess I got lucky, because it is dead quite (no static).  My question is, the stock tube does not glow at all from what I can see.  In other words, I have a Cary tube system as my main home audio system and those tubes obviously glow orange.
> 
> ...


 
  That's quite normal as long as long as the sound is fine and the tube itself is warm or hot to touch after some use. If not, bias problem which can be rectified with a multimeter and bias at 13.5v each channel.


----------



## Oldoiler

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> ... buy a cheapo tube n see if it glow orange :O


 
   


 Well, I don't think you can get much cheaper than the tube that came with it.  I'm assuming  since there are no bias pots on these newer versions of the Bravo that it is over biased and thus not getting as much current across the heaters in the tube which obviously would make it hotter and thus glowing.
   
  Maybe I'll just take an orange "Sharpie" and color the tube orange, how 'bout dem apples! :O


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





oldoiler said:


> Well, I don't think you can get much cheaper than the tube that came with it.  I'm assuming  since there are no bias pots on these newer versions of the Bravo that it is over biased and thus not getting as much current across the heaters in the tube which obviously would make it hotter and thus glowing.
> 
> Maybe I'll just take an orange "Sharpie" and color the tube orange, how 'bout dem apples! :O


 
   
  There never has been bias pots on Bravo's besides v0 prototypes and modded ones, they are biased in the factory before they are shipped out. You mean under-biased, if you over-bias them, the tubes glow brighter, more heat and more strain on the heaters and cathode shorting the life-span of the tubes greatly.
   
  Alternatively you can just change out the bright blue LED to orange colour and call it a day.


----------



## Oldoiler

Quote: 





defqon said:


> That's quite normal as long as long as the sound is fine and the tube itself is warm or hot to touch after some use. If not, bias problem which can be rectified with a multimeter and bias at 13.5v each channel.


 
  DefQon,
   
  Thanks so much for the response and info.  I was starting to wonder if the tube was just for cosmetic purposes.  I have to say that I've very pleasantly surprised at how good this little amp sounds.
   
  I just recently purchase the new i-Can amp and the Bravo gives it a run for its' money!
   
  Thank you again!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





oldoiler said:


> DefQon,
> 
> Thanks so much for the response and info.  I was starting to wonder if the tube was just for cosmetic purposes.  I have to say that I've very pleasantly surprised at how good this little amp sounds.
> 
> ...


 

 Hehe, if you see an amplifier that has a bunch of opamp's grouped together and 1 tube, 50% chance that the tube is for cosmetic purposes only, there are amp/cd tube amp's that follow this sort of trickery as did my stock Shanling CD300 cd "tube" player did before it was Lampized.
   
  Hope you enjoy, but for what it's worth get some tube rolling going on for a better listening experience.


----------



## rmouser

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  HeHe, Maybe you don't have any experience, therefore, don't know of what you speak.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





rmouser said:


> HeHe, Maybe you don't have any experience, therefore, don't know of what you speak.


 
  speak of teh devil, it's the fellow who sold me my Indeed G3, which reminds me both of my amps, my Indeed G3 and my Millet WhipLash Modded, now have clear tops in them as my w1000x likes a tube amp, but the indeed does not like low im[edance cans, and the mullard 5963s where to thick for the w1000x. The dt 880 still sounds nice with clear tops, the lower mids are not as thick any more which is sorta nice in addition those highs have cleaned up a little... 
   
  Still really diggin the w1000x and tubes <3 
   
  Oh yea vocals are much better on the w1000x low gain tube


----------



## rmouser

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ah, it's the 19 year old authority whose daddy took away his amp when it arrived!! I guess he finally gave it back to you?


----------



## DefQon

What, what happened? Not sure if what is going on here now or who you are directing the last post to rmouser.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





rmouser said:


> Ah, it's the 19 year old authority whose daddy took away his amp when it arrived!! I guess he finally gave it back to you?


 
  obviously to me, man I'm moved outa there. So I should thank you, crazy step daddy couldn't handle me making more money than him -.-
   
  non the less rmouser thanks for being chill sorry to drag you into that, point being dude sold me an indeed G3 with a nice mod [the easy bias with wires out the side mod] it sill works and it's still worth $100


----------



## rmouser

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Defqon--the "trickery" you refer to is obviously the new Starlight. there are 3 guys on the planet with knowledge, me being the least as I built the very first kit. The designers are very highly respected.
   
  mshenay---you're referring to me as the devil is NOT quite appropriate on a forum like this...............
   
  speak of teh devil, it's the fellow who sold me my Indeed G3, which reminds me both of my amps, my Indeed G3 and my Millet WhipLash Modded, now have clear tops in them as my w1000x likes a tube amp, but the indeed does not like low im[edance cans, and the mullard 5963s where to thick for the w1000x. The dt 880 still sounds nice with clear tops, the lower mids are not as thick any more which is sorta nice in addition those highs have cleaned up a little...


----------



## amigomatt

Well, it's astonished me just what a difference swapping the stock tube out for a used Mullard from eBay has made on my Bravo Audio Ocean! 


My bass light vintage AKG K240 DFs are now fuller and much more appealing and more dramatically, it has smoothed away the tizzy top end of my new HE-400s, which is exactly what I wanted. I was on the verge of returning them. 

I couldn't be happier with his little purchase. This being my first experience with valve amps, I must say that my overriding impression is that of a cohesive, almost anti-analytical sound presentation. I'm not wanting for detail either. It's hard to explain. Everything just gels together better than I'm used to hearing through my equipment before.


----------



## Evshrug

Amigomatt,
That's exactly the feeling I got from my tube amp, it's musical and really is about the fun of it instead of something science. I had to start from a new old stock tube because mine came smashed in the mail, but once I got a good tube I was really happy


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





rmouser said:


> Defqon--the "trickery" you refer to is obviously the new Starlight. there are 3 guys on the planet with knowledge, me being the least as I built the very first kit. The designers are very highly respected.


 
  Hmm sorry no I didn't, I think you have a misunderstanding here? The Starlight didn't even come to mind when I made my post, actually didn't even know the Starlight after I made the post on your Starlight thread. I was talking about few of the low budget and high end "tube buffered" CD players and amplifiers I have read and owned. Namely one of them is my $1k Shanling CD300, the opamp's do the work and the tube is only for cosmetic purposes but all that was changed after following the procedures of getting it Lampized.


----------



## rmouser

YGPM


----------



## rmouser

YGPM  


defqon said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DefQon

About to get a 6SN7 adapter to 12AU7, going to use my Bravo as a test rat to see how it performs since I have a load of 6SN7 tubes from DV amp.


----------



## amigomatt

I'm noticing distortion appearing when the volume level is above 10 o'clock on certain tracks. I'm using a used Mullard valve from ebay. I had the same issue with the stock valve to an even worse degree, so I opened the amp up with the intention of adjusting the bias pot. I couldn't find one on the board, so I'm presuming I can't adjust that. Is that correct? Here is the inside of the amp:


----------



## DefQon

None of the Bravo amp's have trim pots for bias adjustment. They are biased from the factory. Distortion doesn't sound like it is a bias problem, if you were experiencing massive channel imbalance than that would be unbalanced bias adjustment for the heater currents at 12.5-12.6v for each channel. 
   
  Check for any broken solder contacts or bad solder contacts where there shouldn't be, one of the mosfets could be faulty or badly soldered, missing or inappropriate valued resistors either in series or parallel, volume pot problem/bad solder, bad cap, psu, bad ground or lifted ground etc....To many factors to list, before you opened your Bravo Ocean up and if still under warranty you should've gotten fixed via warranty support from Bravo themselves rather than taking on your own initiative of trying to identify the problem which difficult without the right equipment or knowledge.


----------



## amigomatt

defqon said:


> None of the Bravo amp's have trim pots for bias adjustment. They are biased from the factory. Distortion doesn't sound like it is a bias problem, if you were experiencing massive channel imbalance than that would be unbalanced bias adjustment for the heater currents at 12.5-12.6v for each channel.
> 
> Check for any broken solder contacts or bad solder contacts where there shouldn't be, one of the mosfets could be faulty or badly soldered, missing or inappropriate valued resistors either in series or parallel, volume pot problem/bad solder, bad cap, psu, bad ground or lifted ground etc....To many factors to list, before you opened your Bravo Ocean up and if still under warranty you should've gotten fixed via warranty support from Bravo themselves rather than taking on your own initiative of trying to identify the problem which difficult without the right equipment or knowledge.




Given that you have to open it up to change the tube, does changing the tube invalidate the warranty too, then?


----------



## viveksaikia22

Hi All,
   
  Thought of sharing some pictures of the mods which I did on my Bravo Audio Ocean.
   
  I replaced the stock parts with the following in the amp -
   
  1. Replaced the stock capacitors with higher quality Panasonic caps with higher voltage rating (35V & 25V) for the power filter section and with higher capacitance (3300uF & 2200uF)
  2. Replaced the stock MOSFET transistor with the IRF 510 
  3. Stock tube with a collection of NOS tubes
   
  The up-gradation of the capacitors have added more weight to the lows and helps the amp provide more juice during the busy passages in the music.
  The IRF 510 MOSFET has opened up the highs considerably and one can feel the improvement immediately. 
  These tweaks have helped churning out a balanced sound signature from the otherwise mid-centric little amp. The downside is that the top cover of the amp doesn't fit anymore because of the size of the capacitors but it is helping with improved ventilation (I am an optimist with "B-Positive" blood group 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
  I have been trying out the different NOS tubes and feel that all of them handles the music differently and adds its own color to it. The clear tops have overall better "feeling" to the music.
   
*Before the surgery-*
   
   

   
*After Surgery -*
   

   

   

   
*The great family picture -*
   

   
  Enjoy!


----------



## amigomatt

viveksaikia22 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thought of sharing some pictures of the mods which I did on my Bravo Audio Ocean.
> 
> ...





Inspiring!


----------



## DefQon

Don't use IRF510, they are no different to IRF530/630's. Use IRL510/530's, these babies are the ones that make a difference to the highs.
   
  And no tube rolling doesn't void the warranty to my knowledge. Bravo is pretty stupid to put a tube guard on top of the enclosure.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





rmouser said:


> mshenay---you're referring to me as the devil is NOT quite appropriate on a forum like this...............


 
  Excuse me but how so, that was in NO way a negative comment lol. I LOVE my G3 and I'm very happy to have purchased from you. I used the term devil in a joking manner lol. The "devil" tempts you and that G3 was TEMPTING and I BIT and Now I'm HOOKED on hybrid tubes [again all positives] 
   
  But yea that was a compliment, lol nothing negative on your part. I don't see how it was inapproriate seeing as the connetation is entirely postive there. Non teh less I do apologize for the comment
   
  Non the less, any one know a good place to get a wood siding for the G3, as I'd love to add that into mine!


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





viveksaikia22 said:


> I have been trying out the different NOS tubes and feel that all of them handles the music differently and adds its own color to it. The clear tops have overall better "feeling" to the music.


 
  Totally, I have Clear Tops in both of my Hybrid Tubes and I enjoy them very much! the w1000x sounds WONDERFUL with clear tops


----------



## DefQon

Mshenay have you tried any upper range tubes besides those cheap RCA clear tops?


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Mshenay have you tried any upper range tubes besides those cheap RCA clear tops?


 
  not yet, to broke to get teh good tubes atm
   
  suggestions though?


----------



## DefQon

Oh the irony in that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  What headphones you using out of your G3?


----------



## viveksaikia22

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Mshenay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> .........
> 
> Non the less, any one know a good place to get a wood siding for the G3, as I'd love to add that into mine!


 
   
  Try out Joanne. They have some bass wood planks on sale. These are very easy to work on and can take on any polishing....


----------



## viveksaikia22

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Don't use IRF510, they are no different to IRF530/630's. Use IRL510/530's, these babies are the ones that make a difference to the highs.
> 
> And no tube rolling doesn't void the warranty to my knowledge. Bravo is pretty stupid to put a tube guard on top of the enclosure.


 
   
  I searched out for the IRL510s but didn't find them as all are just sold off and the places were they are available are overpriced.
  But the IRF510 are for sure more brighter than the stock IRF630.


----------



## DefQon

I'm going to say it again get yourself some IRL510 from mouser or ebay (on ebay they are then $5 excl shipping). The IRF line is inferior to the IRL both by technical specs and in sound difference. IRL510,520 or 530 will all do if one is not available.


----------



## stupidmop

I can back up what DefQon says(not that he needs me too) But while modding my bravo I had some 510 irfs laying around so I put em in while waiting on my irl 510 by fairchild(ordered 4 of these off the bay for around $20). Ididn't notice a whole lotta diff. So when the fairchilds came in swapped em out and all I can say is WOW, just wow.
  They have hexfet irl 510s for around same price, ordered a bunch of those too DefQon knows his stuff! He ain't lyin


----------



## Judge Buff

*I thought I'd throw a rock into the pond and watch the ripples...* Since no one answered jkilla in the G3 thread, I did. This is the essence of my reply:
   
   
 Making both triodes the same voltage only works if the emissions are perfectly balanced. I've been fooling around with these little amps for 4 years and unless you have an O-scope, you _*must*_ balance by ear after you've found the voltage range that gives you a strong, clear sound out of each channel. If _*anyone,*_ including a headphoneus sanctimoneus, tells you to make the voltage 13.5V on both triodes to bias balance the tube, they don't know what they are doing. I've seen tubes that needed 16V+ on a side to "balance" with ~13V on the other side.
  
 (*The following was advice for jkilla from the G3 thread.*) If the left side is weak, increase the voltage on that side until the level sounds approximately as strong as the right side. This should also "center" the sound, if what you are listening to was recorded as having such. You could also just have lowered the right side's voltage, but that would probably degrade the sound as well as lower the signal level.
  
 Old radios that used tubes of this nature had to be "tweaked" by their operator to get a decent sound. One of the things they would check was the glow from the tube and how bright it was. They didn't have voltmeters, but they had their eyes and ears. If it sounds right, good or proper to your ears, leave it alone. If it doesn't, keep tweaking. (_EDITED for CONTENT)_
  
 The stated voltage for a tube is a _reference point_ not an absolute value...


----------



## viveksaikia22

Quote: 





defqon said:


> I'm going to say it again get yourself some IRL510 from mouser or ebay (on ebay they are then $5 excl shipping). The IRF line is inferior to the IRL both by technical specs and in sound difference. IRL510,520 or 530 will all do if one is not available.


 
   
  Is there any difference between the IRL510PBF and IRL510 in terms of sound quality?


----------



## stupidmop

Quote: 





viveksaikia22 said:


> Is there any difference between the IRL510PBF and IRL510 in terms of sound quality?


 
  I don't think so but I don't have personal experience with pbf


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> *I thought I'd throw a rock into the pond and watch the ripples...* Since no one answered jkilla in the G3 thread, I did. This is the essence of my reply:
> 
> 
> Making both triodes the same voltage only works if the emissions are perfectly balanced. I've been fooling around with these little amps for 4 years and unless you have an O-scope, you _*must*_ balance by ear after you've found the voltage range that gives you a strong, clear sound out of each channel. If _*anyone,*_ including a headphoneus sanctimoneus, tells you to make the voltage 13.5V on both triodes to bias balance the tube, they don't know what they are doing. I've seen tubes that needed 16V+ on a side to "balance" with ~13V on the other side.
> ...


 
  that's good to know, I've never had a big issue with una;nced sound unless the bias was not 13.5 on each side. For me 13.5 has always been the best sound and volume and when one side is higher or lower I can hear it. Non the less exceptions exist so I'm happy to hear that!


----------



## Dannygillis

Don't totally enclose the sides.    It needs to breathe naturally to stay cool.     Only running minimum voltage, 24vdc and won't hurt you.     If you want to enclose it be sure to leave plenty of vent holes.     Believe it or not, these little dudes sound great.     They are not the most powerful in the world but do produce the smooth tube sound you are looking for.     The first ones sold were sometimes called buffer amps because of their low power output, but they are designed to be used solely on headphones and tend to power even the toughest very well.


----------



## DefQon

viveksaikia22 said:


> Is there any difference between the IRL510PBF and IRL510 in terms of sound quality?


No, they are all the same.


----------



## viveksaikia22

Thanks for confirming. I have ordered the IRL510PBF and should be here with me within 2-3 weeks (shipped from Thailand)


----------



## DefQon

Did you order from an ebay seller?


----------



## viveksaikia22

Yes, I bought it from here -
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/321058767357?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


----------



## DefQon

viveksaikia22 said:


> Yes, I bought it from here -
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321058767357?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


Excellent. I've purchased the exact same ones before.


----------



## nanaud

Sure, IRL 510 are close to the best we can have (not for $$$$$), but keep care to Electromagnetic discharges (don't touch the pins).


----------



## Makiah S

Ugh so guys I have an issue with my Indeed G3, the Rca In's are getting flaky. I'm noticing a drop in one the left channel. I've tested my cables my odac ect... ect... and it's not that
  
 so any tips for well replacing the Rca ins? A buddy of mine is pretty knowledgeable with eletronics and works for an electronics company, so I'm thinking of just removing and soddering some new ones into it... any other mods I should do! I'm already going to have to replace one thing might as well replace and upgrade a few others


----------



## DefQon

Sounds like a fracture joint in the soldered pads. You could get your buddy to reflow the solder pads before spending money on New rca chassis mounts.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Sounds like a fracture joint in the soldered pads. You could get your buddy to reflow the solder pads before spending money on New rca chassis mounts.


 
  that's exactly what he told me lol, a fracture in the joint. So yea we r going to re soder it and I can keep my money!


----------



## DefQon

Yep and use that money for some new tubes.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Yep and use that money for some new tubes.


 
  ikr!


----------



## Twinster

I have the Bravo Ocean version and was wondering if there is a Mod's to reduce the Gain on this little power house?
   
  30 DB is way too much. I would be happy with half that gain.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





twinster said:


> I have the Bravo Ocean version and was wondering if there is a Mod's to reduce the Gain on this little power house?
> 
> 30 DB is way too much. I would be happy with half that gain.


 
  Add in a gain switch to low or high? Other than you can sub some resistors but not much can be done as you're limited to it's circuit design.


----------



## Evshrug

twinster said:


> I have the Bravo Ocean version and was wondering if there is a Mod's to reduce the Gain on this little power house?
> 
> 30 DB is way too much. I would be happy with half that gain.



Research "L-Pads"


----------



## UmustBKidn

Hi folks,
   
  At the risk of sounding like the noob that I am (wait... nevermind), I had a thought while listening to my B.A. v2 ... yes, a dangerous thing ...
   
  One reason I bought this little amp was to use it at work. In case someone walks off with it, I won't be out a lot of money. So I wonder, why bother modding it at all?
   
  If one does mod, what do these mods cost (approx in USD)? Quoting DefQon from Feb of this year:
   
  >> Tube rolling
  >> IRL510 PBF or N mosfets
  >> Crosstalk mod
  >> Change caps to bigger values and using better brands Nichi's or Elna's will do replacing those NCC's.
  >> Change LM317 to 317A military spec fets
   
  SOJEK88 posted a pic of his modded amp in Feb of this yr. I didn't see a parts list. Gawd, if I was gonna mod my amp, that's what I'd do, ROFL. Amazing.
   
  Anyhow, I'm just looking at a cost benefit comparison. I like the amp just the way it is. I also like not having spent a ton of money on it. But I can surely see the benefit of messing with it.
   
  Thank you kindly for your thoughts.


----------



## Judge Buff

umustbkidn said:


> >> Tube rolling
> >> IRL510 PBF or N mosfets
> >> Crosstalk mod
> >> Change caps to bigger values and using better brands Nichi's or Elna's will do replacing those NCC's.
> >> Change LM317 to 317A military spec fets




Everyone that responds to you will probably tell you something different, but this is what I consider the best *low cost* mods that are easy and have very positive sonic effects:

1. Replace the caps with the highest audio grade caps you can buy/fit for the radial electrolytics and Wima or equivalent for the film caps. Know your size constraints; especially diameter. Height considerations can be ameliorated by using extra/longer posts. Increase the capacitance of the PS cap to ~10K and output caps to at least 1K. Put bypass caps on the cath resistors. If you don't notice a more pure sound from your amp, don't do anything else. Some folks can't and to keep modding is a waste of time and money for them. If you spend more than $40 on caps, you haven't gotten any deals or you made multiple orders.

2. Rolling tubes. You can obviously do this without swapping caps, but an incredible tube can only do so much alone. Further, if you don't know tube characteristics, brands, equivalents, fakes, etc, you can be greatly disappointed. Since your amp only has resistors to bias the tube and not trim pots (right?), its even more of an imperative to use well-balanced valves, since you can't adjust an individual channel.

3. Crosstalk mod. Are you actually bothered, peeved or pissed about crosstalk? If so, you might want to risk doing it. But do #1 first and see if you *need* to make this mod. I never did. I don't know why, but I can't perceive it or it isn't an issue for me. YMMV

4. Changing mosfets. Meh for me.

Hope this helps... Take a look at my FrankenAmp, G2, on my profile, also.


----------



## jaywillin

when i ordered my v2, i also got a eh 12au7 to replace the stock tube,
  does anyone have any particular favorite tube , or any recommendations
  tube wise without spending an arm and a leg ??


----------



## Evshrug

UmustBKidn,
If you CAN mod (and this is supposedly an easy job if you can solder), upgrading the capacitors as Judge Buff says would improve everything else down the line. I bought my amp with already upgraded caps and resistors, not huge ones but still good ones, so I don't know the before and after, but it sure does sound fantastic and beats my FiiO for enjoyment easily.

The tube that came with my amp was also smashed in the mail, but I've had more than a fair amount of success with the NOS tubes I've used since. However, I'm tiring of the Bugle Boy I have in the amp right now... I don't know if it's just this one, but it's really microphonic. If I bump/tap the table or the tube picks up vibration from somewhere, it makes an annoying ringing noise through my headphones like a quieter version of microphone feedback. The military-spec tube I used before didn't have this issue that I noticed, and I bet the Vokshods I still have yet to try won't have it either.


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> UmustBKidn,
> If you CAN mod (and this is supposedly an easy job if you can solder), upgrading the capacitors as Judge Buff says would improve everything else down the line. I bought my amp with already upgraded caps and resistors, not huge ones but still good ones, so I don't know the before and after, but it sure does sound fantastic and beats my FiiO for enjoyment easily.
> 
> The tube that came with my amp was also smashed in the mail, but I've had more than a fair amount of success with the NOS tubes I've used since. However, I'm tiring of the Bugle Boy I have in the amp right now... I don't know if it's just this one, but it's really microphonic. If I bump/tap the table or the tube picks up vibration from somewhere, it makes an annoying ringing noise through my headphones like a quieter version of microphone feedback. The military-spec tube I used before didn't have this issue that I noticed, and I bet the Vokshods I still have yet to try won't have it either.


 
  Microphonic tubes happen. I have a couple of great tubes that are horrendously microphonic. Tube dampeners _may_.help. Emphasis on the *may. *They helped one of mine enough that it's usable, but the other is still too microphonic for me... Don't hesitate, Ev, about throwing a Voskhod in the amp. My crystal ball says you have no chance of finding a microphonic 6n23p from Voskhod. They are great musical tubes, but will be crisper than the BBs with tighter bass and more definition in all freq ranges (My crystal ball is pretty good with 6n23p(s) and Reflektor -ev(s)).


----------



## Judge Buff

jaywillin said:


> when i ordered my v2, i also got a eh 12au7 to replace the stock tube,
> does anyone have any particular favorite tube , or any recommendations
> tube wise without spending an arm and a leg ??



 
 RCA black plates and clear tops. Both are awesome and can be gotten inexpensively.


----------



## jaywillin

[quote="Judge].
RCA black plates and clear tops. Both are awesome and can be gotten inexpensively.[/quote]


back when I had a tube integrated amp , I had used some rca's as my input tubes, and had kinda thought about those, 
another question
picking up interference from a cell phone , could the amp pick it up if the phone is on the opposite end of the desk , say 36" away ?


----------



## DefQon

Non-Russian reissue Tung Sol 12AU7 preferably horseshoe getter grey plates, they are good quite rare, pop up now and then for less than $40.
   
  With mods, the biggest impact mod for these amps would be putting them into a different enclosure which reduces crosstalk, emi and rfi interference with nearby electrical components which can give you a quieter background. Followed by tube rolling, then mosfet and caps. 
   
  If you are feeling a bit more hardcore, a regulated ps can improve sound greatly as well.


----------



## Judge Buff

jaywillin said:


> back when I had a tube integrated amp , I had used some rca's as my input tubes, and had kinda thought about those,
> another question
> picking up interference from a cell phone , could the amp pick it up if the phone is on the opposite end of the desk , say 36" away ?


Mine can't stand our 2.4 GHz cordless phones!


----------



## Netforce

My little bear amp has stopped working today :/
   
  The leds stopped working or flicker a little before staying off again, it only produces a high static sound no matter where the volume knob is turned, the tube glows a little.
   
  Any ideas what might be wrong or what I can do?


----------



## DefQon

Change your tube? Check the wallwart?


----------



## Netforce

Only got the stock 12u7 it came with. Tried another wall wart and varies between nothing at all and a slight flicker.
   
  The blue led remains on when its unplugged, and has stayed on for a few minutes now. I should of gotten the bravo v2 instead of this amp


----------



## DefQon

Think your tube is dead. If you look closely check and see if both filaments glow when the amp is on.


----------



## Netforce

So it looks like it's ranging from no response to barely visible. Both filament does appear to light up if just briefly. So if the tube is dead does the whole amp not power up?


----------



## Evshrug

Net force,
Indeed, dead tube right at the heart of the circuit and signal path would make the rest of your amp "dead."


Judge Buff,
I'll try validating your crystal ball hypothesis later today. Mostly, I've just avoided bumping the table, and things have been fine. There is the other Bugle Boy too, I've just been lazy about getting out the multimeter to re-tune the bias for a new tube. *LATER,* though, because I've got an interview with Apple Inc this morning in an hour!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





netforce said:


> So it looks like it's ranging from no response to barely visible. Both filament does appear to light up if just briefly. So if the tube is dead does the whole amp not power up?


 
  There's 4 ways of tackling this problem.
   
  1. Buy a cheap replacement tube on ebay should be < $10.
  2. Instead of buying the tube to see if the stock tube is really dead, spend the $10 on a multimeter and measure the pins to see if the heaters getting any currents
  3. If under warranty still, ignore the above 2 and RMA it. If RMA return shipping is not covered and too expensive, persist with either option 1 or 2.
  4. Post some internal pictures here, if option 3 is not valid for the amp, so you don't void warranty.


----------



## Netforce

Alright, thanks for the help. Ordered a new tube since I don't think the seller is going to rma. I'll post back if it doesn't work.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Non-Russian reissue Tung Sol 12AU7 preferably horseshoe getter grey plates, they are good quite rare, pop up now and then for less than $40.


 
   
  I scored an old Tung Sol made in USA tube from Ebay over the weekend. Seems like the easiest thing to try first.


----------



## draconothese

hello im new to the forums. I am having issues with my bravo v2 hopefully one of you can help me out.

 the issue is if I plug a cord into the input without anything plugged into it there's a awful hiss sound from my headset it goes away partway when its plugged into a source but its still there. also if I touch the metal plug they gave me and touch the heat sinks for the irl 630's I get a little shock. is it a grounding issue?, how can I fix this its driving me crazy.

 if there's nothing plugged into the amp there's a hum that gets louder if I turn up the volume knob. the hum starts to go away if I grab onto the adapter that came with the amp the 1/4 to 1/8 adapter

 also most of the hum goes away if I lift it just off my desk or tilt it on its side

 is there a grounding issue or something how can I fix this
   
   
  also below is a list of mods I have done to help narrow down the problem
   
  I have changed the irl 630 to irl 510
   
  did the crosstalk wire mod
  changed tube to a rca black plate


----------



## DefQon

Check that your 510 are soldered properly. The hum is crosstalk and emi with nearby equipment that send radio waves. When I have my Bravo next to my desktop there is this loud background hum which goes awat when I have my hand cover up the amp.


----------



## draconothese

ok I have made sure I have the 510 soldered down good so its not the problem. how can I fix the crosstalk and emi problem without moving the amp  somewhere else ?
   
   
  also I still cant figure out why there's so much juice going through the wires that it would shock me. im thinking its a grounding issue but not sure how to go  about trying to ground the amp.
   
  also it looks as if all the positive connections on my amp go to the ground is that normal thought it would be negative going to ground


----------



## DefQon

Hmm negative should be connected to the circuit ground, not positive to circuit ground. Check for any legs that are not soldered in properly, i.e. a floating terminal. Sounds like something is not soldered to the contact pad properly (or a defect) for it to be to discharge a shock to you.


----------



## draconothese

ok I was able to remove the hum by attaching a wire from the screw on both of the irl 510 to the ground but there's still static that I cant get rid of  its kind of like the static you hear when you cant get a channel on a old TV to come in


----------



## DefQon

Well at least you got the hum fixed which is almost always related with grounding issues.
   
  High distortion or static usually come from the volume pot, headphone jack or the tube.


----------



## draconothese

how can I go about figure out what one of those is causing it I have other tubes I can try out so I can handle that part what about testing the pot and jack is there a easy way other then disordering and adding a new one


----------



## DefQon

Only method I know of to see if the pot is the culprit is by replacing it. Tube replacements are cheap, drop in a cheap < $10 RCA, GE, Sylvania 12AU7 from ebay to see if the tube could be a problem, or better yet use the supplied 12AU7 tube in another amp that takes it. Other than that I don't know any other method.


----------



## draconothese

ok I will play around and see what I can do should have some jacks in a box somewhere the pot on the other hand will have to get a new one do you know of a model that works with this amp that's good


----------



## draconothese

ok I have a problem I thought grounding the irl 510 fixed it but when I turned it off and tried turning it back on it would not turn on removed the wire from the heat sink on the irl510 to the ground and it turned on figured what the hell so I touched the wire back to the ground while it was on and got a nasty spark whats going on with this thing


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





draconothese said:


> ok I have a problem I thought grounding the irl 510 fixed it but when I turned it off and tried turning it back on it would not turn on removed the wire from the heat sink on the irl510 to the ground and it turned on figured what the hell so I touched the wire back to the ground while it was on and got a nasty spark whats going on with this thing


 
  Did you solder the 510 properly? Like the correct facing orientation? Did you use thermal pad/compound in between the metal backside of the fet to the heatsink?


----------



## draconothese

im pretty sure I did I put the flat side against the  heatsink  and put thermal paste on the flat side so the heat would transfer also the solder joints are perfect tested them and theres good contact


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Did you solder the 510 properly? Like the correct facing orientation? Did you use thermal pad/compound in between the metal backside of the fet to the heatsink?


 
   
  Quote: 





draconothese said:


> im pretty sure I did I put the flat side against the  heatsink  and put thermal paste on the flat side so the heat would transfer also the solder joints are perfect tested them and theres good contact


 

 did you use the isolating kit between the fet and heatsink?


----------



## DefQon

That's what I asked.


----------



## geetarman49

sorry, i must have missed it then ... saw that you asked him about thermal pad ... but what about the insulating washer?  did he install that?


----------



## DefQon

Probably, otherwise the fet wouldn't stick to the heatsink/thermal pad.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Received my old US made Tung Sol from eBay last week, and plugged it in to the amp. I noticed two things almost immediately:
   
  1) The sound is "meatier" - easiest one word description I could think of. I can see why older tubes are preferred! The sound changed character a bit during the first few minutes of play. I'm guessing that was some crap burning off a surface that had been sitting for years.
   
  2) I now have a low level hum during quiet passages. This hum goes away if I put the original tube back in, or if I touch certain metal parts of the amp while its on.
   
  So I now have a curious dilemma. The hum isn't so loud as to be annoying. But I can hear it between songs. And I wonder if the old tube is affecting anything in the circuit (or vice versa). This setup is not the most hi fi setup, so maybe I should just live with it.
   
  Any opinions as to what this hum is? Am I safe to ignore it? Or should I put the original tube back in?
   
  Thank you kindly for your thoughts.


----------



## DefQon

If subbing the TS for the original removes the hum than it means the TS tube is the culprit for humming. Quite common for tubes, let it play for few more days and see if the hum completely goes away.


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





draconothese said:


> im pretty sure I did I put the flat side against the  heatsink  and put thermal paste on the flat side so the heat would transfer also the solder joints are perfect tested them and theres good contact


 

 perhaps you could post a couple of hi-res pix?  much easier to troubleshoot if we could see what's done ... topside/underside.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> RCA black plates and clear tops. Both are awesome and can be gotten inexpensively.


 
  agree clear tops sound awesome


----------



## Soilworker

I am getting static noise from my bravo audio ocean...help!

It goes away when I touch the tube guard...

What should I do?


----------



## eyal1983

What's the difference between the Shu Guang 12AU7 TUBE , and the  Electro Harmonix 6922 TUBE ?


----------



## Twinster

Well I did the swap to irl510 on my Bravo Ocean and took great precaution for static and it's install on the proper side and when I powered it on I heard loud static kid of sound but no music was playing so for now I kind of gave up on it since I received my ALO Pan Am.

I'm somewhat pits off cause I have all the other upgrade parts for it.


----------



## geetarman49

Quote: 





twinster said:


> Well I did the swap to irl510 on my Bravo Ocean and took great precaution for static and it's install on the proper side and when I powered it on I heard loud static kid of sound but no music was playing so for now I kind of gave up on it since I received my ALO Pan Am.
> 
> I'm somewhat pits off cause I have all the other upgrade parts for it.


 

 if you can post some hi-res pix, it'll be easier to sort this out otherwise you'll probably have to get someone experienced to have a look at it.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Two things...
   
  The other day, while I was foolin around with my Bravo V2 and ipod nano setup, after reading something in another thread, I tried maxing out the volume control on the ipod nano, and turning down the volume on the Bravo. I swear it sounded a little bit better this way. Bass seemed punchier, and it all sounded a bit more dynamic to me. I wonder if I'm imagining this. Or not.
   
  This also brought me to wonder, if anyone has tried using an ipod DAC unit and plumbing it into their Bravo amp? Something like the Pure I-20, or the Nuforce Icon Ido?
   
http://www.amazon.com/Pure-i-20-30-Pin-iPhone-Speaker/dp/B0049MOK92/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1372326921&sr=1-1&keywords=pure+i20
   
http://www.amazon.com/Nuforce-ICON-IDO-BLACK-Audiophile-Grade-Headphone-Devices/dp/B005LRTH3I/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1372411503&sr=1-1&keywords=nuforce+icon+ido
   
  I would be greatly interested in any review of either of these items used with an ipod, and a Bravo amp. Thanks!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> Two things...
> 
> The other day, while I was foolin around with my Bravo V2 and ipod nano setup, after reading something in another thread, I tried maxing out the volume control on the ipod nano, and turning down the volume on the Bravo. I swear it sounded a little bit better this way. Bass seemed punchier, and it all sounded a bit more dynamic to me. I wonder if I'm imagining this. Or not.
> 
> ...


 
  Haven't tried those docks but have tried the Onkyo ND-S1000.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





soilworker said:


> I am getting static noise from my bravo audio ocean...help!
> 
> It goes away when I touch the tube guard...
> 
> What should I do?


 
  ... chop off your finger and flue it to your amp <3 [just kidding lol]
   
  Still though I really do not know! I would also try the Max your DAP volume and reduce the volume on the amp [also I LOVE using line outs when I can for that exact reason, You want the STRONGEST single you can get into the amp, that should give u the best chance to reduce noise from the amp] Like my Zune was always at max volume when I had it plugged into my e11, it DID sound better that way becuase there was a bigger single going in, less noise and bloating coming out. Some one might have the science for it some  where...
   
  Ethier way, I sold my Indeed G3, so I'm not in the club any moar but I still promote these little sub $100 amps ^^ [although my MIllet Hybrid amp is better than my G3... gain switch and a better build construction, and I paid the same for it. $100 for my millet and $100 for my G3)
   
  SO I recommend you guys keep ur ears open on the For Sale thread. If some one's selling one them little beauties I'd JUMP on it!


----------



## jaywillin

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> ... chop off your finger and flue it to your amp <3 [just kidding lol]
> 
> Still though I really do not know! I would also try the Max your DAP volume and reduce the volume on the amp [also I LOVE using line outs when I can for that exact reason, You want the STRONGEST single you can get into the amp, that should give u the best chance to reduce noise from the amp] Like my Zune was always at max volume when I had it plugged into my e11, it DID sound better that way becuase there was a bigger single going in, less noise and bloating coming out. Some one might have the science for it some  where...
> 
> ...


 

 i've got your g3 up for sale, i got a little dot 1+ its on the for sale forum, just lowered the price by 20


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





jaywillin said:


> i've got your g3 up for sale, i got a little dot 1+ its on the for sale forum, just lowered the price by 20


 
  sheesh that was fast, But congrats on the upgrade XD


----------



## jaywillin

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> sheesh that was fast, But congrats on the upgrade XD


 

 yeah, i happened upon a used little dot on the for sale forum, couldn't pass it up, came with 4 pairs of tubes for 100 bucks
  so far no one has bitten on the g3, and i got it priced to move, if it doesn't sale, i'll practice my soldering skills on it !


----------



## darkarn

Hi guys, I was doing the MOSFET mod on my Bravo Audio V2 12AU7 amp when I somehow burnt off the copper tracks for the left MOSFET, now no current is going through the left MOSFET and thus I cannot hear anything from the left channel (right channel is working fine)
   
  I urgently need a good picture of the PCB to be able to see how should I replace the copper track accordingly (I tried but the left MOSFET is still not working, I took some pictures but they did not show the connections that I need to know)

 Please help ASAP, thanks!


----------



## jaywillin

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> sheesh that was fast, But congrats on the upgrade XD


 

 well, i took the g3 off the for sale, i wasn't getting any interest in it, so i decided i was gonna keep it, work on my soldering skills on it instead of starting with a kit
  in taking down off the shelf where i had it, i noticed the volume control seemed out of alignment , pointing up, i gently straighten it, the imbalance that i was noticing is all but gone
  only at very low levels, there some, but its much better now, it may have gotten jostled in shipping, or i did something to it
  any, it would have been a pretty good deal for the 50 bucks i was asking, but i'm keeping it now, it sounds real good with those rca clear tops !!


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





darkarn said:


> Hi guys, I was doing the MOSFET mod on my Bravo Audio V2 12AU7 amp when I somehow burnt off the copper tracks for the left MOSFET, now no current is going through the left MOSFET and thus I cannot hear anything from the left channel (right channel is working fine)
> 
> I urgently need a good picture of the PCB to be able to see how should I replace the copper track accordingly (I tried but the left MOSFET is still not working, I took some pictures but they did not show the connections that I need to know)
> 
> Please help ASAP, thanks!


 
   
  I found it kind of hard to get a good shot. I tried to keep the power switch visible, for the sake of orientation.
  I hope these help. Click for larger versions.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





darkarn said:


> Hi guys, I was doing the MOSFET mod on my Bravo Audio V2 12AU7 amp when I somehow burnt off the copper tracks for the left MOSFET, now no current is going through the left MOSFET and thus I cannot hear anything from the left channel (right channel is working fine)


 
  Even if you burnt off the trace for one of the solder pads for the FET leg, you should be able to still tell where it leads to. Solder/bridge a wire to the nearest point where the broken trace connects up to.


----------



## UmustBKidn

So... I bought a Pure i-20 ipod DAC, to hook up with my Bravo V2. This immediately made the stock Chinese tube sound tinny, harsh, bright, and irritating. Yikes.
   
  The old TS tube I bought, the one with the hum, wasn't going to help. So I started shopping for tubes on eBay. I kind of went nuts buying tubes, LOL. I decided to stop before I hit 20. Yeah. Really. Yabba Dabba Doo.
   
  On the other hand, I'm having some serious family issues at the moment, so this little distraction is helping me cope with the insanity of other family members. That, and a bottle of rum. But I did buy a lot of tubes lol. I guess I can go back and sell some when I'm done with my rolling adventure.
   
  Side note: the Pure i-20 is about the same money as a Schiit Modi. If it weren't for the need to hook up an iPod (thus bypassing the iPod's DAC), I'd really prefer the Modi. It is a curious setup. There are probably better DAC's, but I went the cheap route. Then I bought 19 12AU7 tubes LOL. So maybe it wasn't so cheap.
   
  I am finding some good tubes though, that quiet down the bright DAC chip in the i-20. The majority of the tubes are still being shipped, but the best ones I've found so far are some NOS GE tubes. I do have a Mullard or two coming, and a Telefunken or two coming, so I am curious how those will work out. I am definitely impressed on how swapping out some old tubes make the Bravo V2 completely change sonic character. I guess that's another reason I kind of went nuts buying tubes ... I wanted to see what they all sounded like.
   
  I shall be making some notes as I proceed, and posting them in this thread. Stay tuned...


----------



## DefQon

Get yourself some 1950's diamond etched base Telefunken ECC82's and call it the perfect setup for the Bravo.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





jaywillin said:


> well, i took the g3 off the for sale, i wasn't getting any interest in it, so i decided i was gonna keep it, work on my soldering skills on it instead of starting with a kit
> in taking down off the shelf where i had it, i noticed the volume control seemed out of alignment , pointing up, i gently straighten it, the imbalance that i was noticing is all but gone
> only at very low levels, there some, but its much better now, it may have gotten jostled in shipping, or i did something to it
> any, it would have been a pretty good deal for the 50 bucks i was asking, but i'm keeping it now, it sounds real good with those rca clear tops !!


 
  Your dang right it does xD,
   
  Glad you modding it <3 she needs a good ownder to mod the crap out of her xD [and I mean that literally] If your REALLY good. Trying slapping a gain switch in there, something to lower the gain would make that thing beast. In addition people like buying MOdded Gear [or I SURE DO] so keep track of what you put into and maybe if u try to sell again, take like %67 of what u spent and jack the price up by half that amount xD [jk u can price it how ever lol]
   
  Still Litle Dot II with 4 tubes for $100... WOW not bad at all, that's a FULL tube no hybrid or NOTHING. Nice man very nice
   
  My only headphone goal would be the Mad Dogs as they have been reviesed and I have a SOlid State amp for them now, in addition I'd like another pair of Byer dt 880 but I want le 600 ohms this time! Thankfully my Matrix M Stage was HEAVENLY with my 250 ohm, it REALLY did a great job of adding some weight in the lower Mids and upper bass. I was super happy. I had more low end than my w1000x, and I mean that in Quality+Quanity. The w1000x was heavyer, but the dt 880 hit you deeper. Both where great, point being, For me the cans where excellent compliments, and as much as I mis my 880 250 ohms, I look forward to my 600 ohms xD 
   
  ethier way, great to here your into the modding of the Bravo "type" hybrid amps! Might be buying my G3 back from you soon xD, after you made some mods to it <3


----------



## cheaphifi

If you're looking for something similar to the Bravo / Indeed thingies but with better quality :
  - you can order it ready to play (built with tube installed and bias adjusted) or in kit for the diyers.
  - improved conception from the start, no need to mod to have a great sound and no bad surprise like humm or buzzing noise or channel imbalance.
  ,100% genuine components, very high qualitative PCB and excellent quality check, made in USA.
  - great features like auto-bias (Ember) or built-in easy bias system with led indicators (no longer need a multimeter to adjust tube bias) and a protection circuit to protects your headphones,
  - compatible with a huge amount of noval tubes (with 12V or 6V heater) like ECC81, ECC82, ECC83, ECC85, ECC88, 6N1P, 6N23P, etc... (about 80 ! )
  - you can adjust the output impedance, by-pass input caps, or change op-amps on some amps.
  - at least as powerful as the best modded G3 but with a far better sounding.
   
  Their amps are more expensive than the Indeed and Bravo amplifier but they really worth the price.
  i'm not saying that the cheap chinese amps aren't good but if you're looking for an hybrid amplifier working at its best directly "out of the box" you should look at : http://garage1217.com/index.html


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Get yourself some 1950's diamond etched base Telefunken ECC82's and call it the perfect setup for the Bravo.


 
   
  Three more boxes came in the mail today. I shall try them at work tomorrow. Is it horrible that I'm testing these at work? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I also bought a hard case with foam inserts to hold all these tubes. It's getting a bit hard to carry around all this glass. Lord, what have I done...
   
  Today's curiosity was a westinghouse cleartop tube. Very open sounding, not so much bass.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> If you're looking for something similar to the Bravo / Indeed thingies but with better quality :
> ...


 
   
  Actually, I wasn't. I'm just having Fun With Tubes. I'm quite happy with my Bravo V2.
   
  To be honest, I've heard of the amps you mention, but to me these are all kind of in the same class of amplifier, in particular their low price hybrid. Looks like the same thing at twice the price to me. I decided a while back that the only modding I really care to do for my Bravo is tube rolling. I just don't see the point in replacing all of the parts in the thing.
   
  If I was going shopping for another amp/dac setup, personally my preference would be a step up, for more tubes, something like the Bottlehead Crack, or maybe the Schiit Valhalla. I don't think I'd buy another budget hybrid.
   
  In my case, my budget hybrid is sitting on my desk at work, so I am a bit wary of dropping a bunch of money and leaving the setup sitting in a semi public place 24/7. I'm almost begging for trouble. I've actually been considering going the other direction: taking my Bravo home, and getting something even cheaper for work. Like a CMoy.
   
  My closed back cans are also becoming kind of annoying, because I'd like to hear more of what's going on around me (including hearing the phone ring). Not that I want to completely regress to the setup I started with (God Forbid), just something a bit less isolating. It's becoming too easy for me to get absorbed in all of this fun I'm having with tubes too. Sooner or later my boss is going to come by my cube while I'm swapping out a tube, and I don't want to have to explain that activity to him, LOL.


----------



## cheaphifi

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> To be honest, I've heard of the amps you mention, but to me these are all kind of in the same class of amplifier, in particular their low price hybrid. Looks like the same thing at twice the price to me. I decided a while back that the only modding I really care to do for my Bravo is tube rolling. I just don't see the point in replacing all of the parts in the thing.


 
   
  They look like the same thing but they aren't, g1217 amp's are not really the same thing than common low price hybrids, i'm currently own their cheapest amp the Project Starlight, it has very interesting features : compatible with both 12v and 6V heater tubes (ECC88, 6N1P, 6N27P and ECC81, ECC82, ECC83 on the same amp), easy biasing system (change tube and set bias in 5min without remove the cover), the sound is in the same league than my Audio-Gd C2 (clean sounding, great details, plus this little tasty "tubey sounding" which make the music more lively), and it has enough power to make sing AKG K340, Sennheiser HD-650 or hungry 600 Ohm Beyers...
   
  I previously owned the garage1217's very first amplifier, the Project Sunrise and it was also an awesome full Class A hybrid with awesome sonic qualities.
   
  I'm don't trying to convince you, but if you can, I encourage you to listen to an g1217 amplifier, i think you'll understand that i mean by awesome.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> They look like the same thing but they aren't, g1217 amp's are not really the same thing than common low price hybrids, i'm currently own their cheapest amp the Project Starlight, it has very interesting features : compatible with both 12v and 6V heater tubes (ECC88, 6N1P, 6N27P and ECC81, ECC82, ECC83 on the same amp), easy biasing system (change tube and set bias in 5min without remove the cover), the sound is in the same league than my Audio-Gd C2 (clean sounding, great details, plus this little tasty "tubey sounding" which make the music more lively), and it has enough power to make sing AKG K340, Sennheiser HD-650 or hungry 600 Ohm Beyers...
> 
> I previously owned the garage1217's very first amplifier, the Project Sunrise and it was also an awesome full Class A hybrid with awesome sonic qualities.
> 
> I'm don't trying to convince you, but if you can, I encourage you to listen to an g1217 amplifier, i think you'll understand that i mean by awesome.


 
  Oh they are AWESOME, but Indeed an Bravo are still the cheapest. Espically if you get them from users here, in addtion the $200 price can buy you well many better amps imo. So those aren't really to much of a starter amp. Still I'm sure they are really great! If you like the look and sound of hybrids they've got to be winners I'm sure!


----------



## darkarn

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> I found it kind of hard to get a good shot. I tried to keep the power switch visible, for the sake of orientation.
> I hope these help. Click for larger versions.


 
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> Even if you burnt off the trace for one of the solder pads for the FET leg, you should be able to still tell where it leads to. Solder/bridge a wire to the nearest point where the broken trace connects up to.


 
  Hi guys, thanks for the help. Unfortunately, the more I try to fix (another shoutout to solderdude/Frans, thanks for your help!) it, the worse it got (right channel goes missing while left channel has unusually high static, pads being burnt off). I decided to just start afresh, especially when he pointed out that I have swapped most of the parts for at least a few times.
   
  So anyway, how's the Ocean like compared to the V2? Has anyone modded it before? Or should I just sell off my tubes and save up for a better tube amp (i.e. what's the next level I should go for? How will changing tube family affect my experience?)?


----------



## mvrk10256

Hey guys i picked up this bad boy a little while ago and recently posted a tube rolling thread on it. Compared a bunch of tubes. Feel free to take a look. Also got a lot of hardware on order from mouser for mods, will post some pictures and more info in that same thread when they are done.


----------



## jaywillin

mshenay said:


> Your dang right it does xD,
> 
> Glad you modding it <3 she needs a good ownder to mod the crap out of her xD [and I mean that literally] If your REALLY good. Trying slapping a gain switch in there, something to lower the gain would make that thing beast. In addition people like buying MOdded Gear [or I SURE DO] so keep track of what you put into and maybe if u try to sell again, take like %67 of what u spent and jack the price up by half that amount xD [jk u can price it how ever lol]
> 
> ...



Well I'm very much a beginner with a soldering iron, and the little dot I have is the mk1+ , 3 working pairs of tubes, no matter though, I figure I've got two pretty decent tube amps for under 200


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> They look like the same thing but they aren't, g1217 amp's are not really the same thing than common low price hybrids, i'm currently own their cheapest amp the Project Starlight, it has very interesting features : compatible with both 12v and 6V heater tubes (ECC88, 6N1P, 6N27P and ECC81, ECC82, ECC83 on the same amp), easy biasing system (change tube and set bias in 5min without remove the cover), the sound is in the same league than my Audio-Gd C2 (clean sounding, great details, plus this little tasty "tubey sounding" which make the music more lively), and it has enough power to make sing AKG K340, Sennheiser HD-650 or hungry 600 Ohm Beyers...
> 
> I previously owned the garage1217's very first amplifier, the Project Sunrise and it was also an awesome full Class A hybrid with awesome sonic qualities.
> 
> I'm don't trying to convince you, but if you can, I encourage you to listen to an g1217 amplifier, i think you'll understand that i mean by awesome.


 
   
  If I ever get a chance to hear them at a meet, I surely would enjoy a listen. But this thread is really about the Bravo amps, after all.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





mvrk10256 said:


> Hey guys i picked up this bad boy a little while ago and recently posted a tube rolling thread on it. Compared a bunch of tubes. Feel free to take a look. Also got a lot of hardware on order from mouser for mods, will post some pictures and more info in that same thread when they are done.


 
   
  I am curious why you used a cheap monoprice headset for your comparison? Also, I guess you just plugged your laptop's headphone output into the Bravo? I didn't see a DAC mentioned.
   
  After doing some of my own tube rolling on my Bravo, I've come to the conclusion that I am kind of wasting time and money. The Bravo won't sufficiently drive my Beyerdynamic DT770/250's (yes, there's a lot of volume, but the bass response is crap compared to my Schiit Magni). So why does a solid state class AB amp outdrive a class A hybrid tube amp? Well, because Schiit gear rocks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In all seriousness, I'm not sure why, but it does. There is a dramatic difference in the two setups. If you want to spend $200 bucks on a headphone setup, you can't beat a Schiit Magni amp driven by a Schiit Modi DAC. I'd use that for work, except I can't plug that DAC into any computers at work. So I'm stuck with the ipod and Bravo.
   
  The Bravo V2 does drive my Sony MDR 7506's well, but with the Pure i-20 DAC in line, there is enough brightness in the high frequencies to start my ears ringing. When I take that DAC out of line, the detail that it did bring is gone, and I'm back to basically amplifying an iPod. So all this lovely detail in the 20-odd tubes I've been playing with is mostly not audible. That, or my ears are still ringing so bad I can't hear LOL.
   
  So I'm going to see if I can return the Pure i-20. That was a waste of money. I'm not sure why the thing produces such a bright, harsh high end, but damn, I swear its just too hard to listen to after a while. I'm not going to go out and spend a couple hundred bucks on a DAC to drive a cheap headphone amp. It just doesn't make sense. I think I'm going to keep a GE 5-star 5963 tube in my Bravo V2, and park the rest of my selection until I can invest in the next setup (most likely a Bottlehead Crack).
   
  The one thing I haven't tried yet, that really begs to be tried, is driving my Bravo V2 with my Modi DAC, and then trying my tube rolling exercise. I already know the Modi is way better than the Pure i-20. The only disadvantage is, I have to plug the Modi into a computer, which isn't something I can do at work. I'll have to bring it home for that experiment. So I can't just add a Modi to my work setup - the company won't permit it.
   
  So, I'm right back where I started with my Bravo V2. It's a very nice first step up in hi fi audio. But trying to make it into something it isn't, is just as expensive as buying a better amp in the first place. And that wasn't my goal - I just wanted something relatively good and cheap for work. I won't be spending $150-200 on a "better" hybrid amp. I would rather invest that money in a Bottlehead Crack, because then I can go to town on tube rolling (and I can also then justify spending 300 bucks for a good DAC to drive it).
   
  If you are on a budget, or are in a situation like me where you leave your gear on your desk at work (and don't want to leave 600 bucks worth of gear laying around), then a stock Bravo V2 is definitely the way to go. You just can't beat it for $70 bucks on Amazon (maybe even cheaper on eBay). The only cheaper option is a cMoyBB (which I am still tempted to get LOL).
   
  And as for tube rolling: pretty much any NOS American tube will sound better than the stock Chinese tube - honestly, don't spend the money for a Mullard or a Telefunken. A $10 NOS American made tube is all you need.


----------



## jaywillin

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> I am curious why you used a cheap monoprice headset for your comparison? Also, I guess you just plugged your laptop's headphone output into the Bravo? I didn't see a DAC mentioned.
> 
> After doing some of my own tube rolling on my Bravo, I've come to the conclusion that I am kind of wasting time and money. The Bravo won't sufficiently drive my Beyerdynamic DT770/250's (yes, there's a lot of volume, but the bass response is crap compared to my Schiit Magni). So why does a solid state class AB amp outdrive a class A hybrid tube amp? Well, because Schiit gear rocks
> 
> ...


 

 i found the modi v-2 combo to work very well !


----------



## mvrk10256

I used the MP 8323 cause thats all I had available at the time. I got the Bravo for $50 and I am recouping pretty much all the money I spent on tubes. Plus it was a learning experiance and you can not put a price on that.


----------



## MPBateman

Can anyone point me towards a DIY build of this amp or it's design?


----------



## cheaphifi

Quote: 





mpbateman said:


> Can anyone point me towards a DIY build of this amp or it's design?


 
   
  here : http://garage1217.com/graphic_design_005.htm
   
  the amps in these kit are better than bravo, indeed, etc... best sound, much more reliable, and campatible with more tubes.


----------



## MPBateman

Looks a little advanced for me, over my budget as well, looks like a cool build so I'll file it away. Thank for the recommendation!


----------



## Makiah S

Guys the bravo and other like amps are one thing
   
  Intro Hybrid Tubes, they are purely introductory tubes imo. They are dirt cheap so if you screw it up modding or what ever it's not a big deal. As some one said before you can learn a lot having one of these. I like the Indeed G3 over the Bravo, and ethier way despite selling mine having it got me into cheap hybrid amps. SO my millet which I still own is soon approaching a RCA swap, the current ones are pretty shifty and soon enough I'll have new ones in there!


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> here : http://garage1217.com/graphic_design_005.htm
> 
> the amps in these kit are better than bravo, indeed, etc... best sound, much more reliable, and campatible with more tubes.


 
   
  ... are you a salesman for these guys or something? Just wondering why you hang out in the Bravo thread and keep trashing them.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





mpbateman said:


> Can anyone point me towards a DIY build of this amp or it's design?


 
   
  Sorry no, but you can bid on them on eBay. Someone sells one every 2 or 3 days, and they invariably go for less than or equal to the cost from Amazon. Only issue there is the wait: they ship on a slow boat from China. Probably not so quick on service or returns either. Honestly, $70 bucks on Amazon is pretty darn good. I'm not sure you'd beat that even if you could put one together from parts.


----------



## DefQon

The Bravo/Indeed/Sunrise circuit design is a basic class a 12AU7 one that's been around for quite a while and lot's of them online pretty much like Cmoy's for opamp based circuits. Builders just tink around with the circuit add and substitute stuff but in the end it ain't no mid-fi level amp, but a good way to get your feet wet with tubes.


----------



## UmustBKidn

So I've been flipping my setups around just to play with things. I'm the curious sort I guess. I decided to tinker with this Pure i-20 a bit more, and it's probably been too long for me to return it. Anyway... the "normal" setups I have for home and work go something like this:
   
  Work: iPod -> (Pure i-20 DAC) -> Bravo V2 -> Sony MDR 7506
  Home: Laptop -> Schiit Modi -> Schiit Magni -> Beyerdynamic DT770/250
   
  The setups sound different, but both sound good. The Pure i-20 is the newest addition; it is BRIGHT. Maybe even harsh. I am finding out I can't turn the volume up a lot, or I need to take it out of line and run the iPod directly into the Bravo. Aside from the brightness, it is bringing some unexpected clarity to what I keep calling my "cheap" work setup. Anyway, so I decided to do some tube rolling, and switch this around. Since I can't tube roll at work, I brought the Bravo home and changed the home setup to this:
   
  Home: Laptop -> Schiit Modi -> Bravo V2 -> Beyerdynamic DT770/250
   
  The bottom end on the Beyers went away with this setup. That was a little surprising, given how much headroom the Bravo's volume knob usually has. I presume this was an impedance thing, so I switched out the headphones to the work cans:
   
  Home: Laptop -> Schiit Modi -> Bravo V2 -> Sony MDR 7506
   
  This brought the bottom end back. I was also a little shocked that the Sony's were sounding better than the Beyers on this setup. The MDR 7506's have an impedance of 63 ohms, which seems to work a lot better than the 250-ohm Beyers (and I'm now also kind of curious how 32 ohm cans would sound, but I digress).
   
  So now that I had my tube rolling setup determined, I started a-rollin'. And a rollin, lol. I'm sure someone will laugh at me for blowing a pile of money on 12AU7 tubes to roll a Bravo V2, but there you go. As I mentioned earlier in another post, my family life has been going whacky for the last month or so, so I guess I really needed a distraction from the grief. Besides, it keeps me off the streets and out of trouble. But I digress again. I'll discuss the tubes in a moment.
   
  So because I didn't want to keep carting around my tube rolling setup, I decided to take the other parts to work. So my work setup temporarily turned into this:
   
  Work: iPod -> Schiit Magni -> Beyerdynamic DT770/250
   
  Now, this was a real shocker: the Beyerdynamic cans sounded just as bad as when I was trying to drive them with the Bravo V2. For some reason, the Magni was no longer driving them properly. Ok, the Magni was being driven by an iPod, but can the DAC in an iPod really be that bad? I guess it is. I did not try the Pure i-20 on this setup. I suppose I should have, but I had it parked and out of the way for the moment. Someday curiosity may get the best of me, but I didn't go there for now. Suffice it to say that for a few moments, I resurrected my Sony MDR NC-40's and ran them with the iPod. Then I remembered why that was a bad idea. So this work setup didn't last long. I briefly flirted with the idea of buying another set of cans. Bleh, not now. Spent too much on tubes for now.
   
  So back to the tubes. My music selection is probably smaller than others. But I have some nice selections, and I decided on a selection of tunes that I am now calling my Test Music. The primary selections from the library I use the most (song names eliminated for space):
   
  - Apple Lossless -
 Andreas Vollenweider: Book of Roses
 Pat Metheney: One Quiet Night
 Peter Gabriel: So
 - Apple 256 Kbps AAC -
 Korn: Untouchables
 Led Zeppelin: Celebration Day (Live At O2 Arena, London)
 Lindsey Stirling: Lindsey Stirling
 Seether: Finding Beauty In Negative Spaces
 Seether: Holding Onto Strings Better Left to Fray
   
  The 12AU7 tubes I've tried:
   
  GE 5 star 5963 (mil spec 12AU7)
  Telefunken x 2 (long grey plate)
  Tung Sol x 2 (long grey plate)
  Westinghouse clear top (long grey plate)
  Westinghouse yellow label (long grey plate)
  IEC Mullard (I think this was a short grey plate)
  Amperex Mullard (long grey plate)
  Conn rebranded, not sure what the original is (long black plate)
  Sylvania green label (mid size grey plate)
  Sylvania yellow label (long grey plate)
  GE white label (short grey plate)
  Olympio tv tube (long grey plate)
  Baldwin organ tube (rebranded Sylvania, long grey plate)
  JJ Electronics new, not NOS, from Amazon.com (short grey plate)
  Electro harmonix new, not NOS (short grey plate)
  ...and of course the original chinese tube
  (and I still have a few more to test including a couple of the better Mullards)
   
  I'm not going to torture you with a blow by blow description. I think it's probably more important to point out the lessons learned:
   
  1) Unless you need a distraction like I did, it's probably not worth spending this much money to tube roll a Bravo V2.
  2) The newly made tubes from JJ Electronics, Electro Harmonix, and the stock chinese tubes really do suck. Not by a whole lot, but it is a noticeable difference. I would sooner throw them in the trash then listen to them. I would only use them if they were the last tubes on Earth.
  3) Long grey plates sound better than the short grey plates. Brand doesn't matter.
  4) Black plates of any length, seem to sound as good as the long grey plates. Brand doesn't matter.
  5) Sometimes people sell tubes on eBay because they are worn out. The first Tung sol tube I bought that really got me going on this, had a background hum that has never gone away. I am now assuming this is because the tube is worn out or defective in some manner, and the jerk who sold it to me on eBay really should have thrown the damn thing away. Instead, he made $12 bucks and screwed me. The second Tung Sol tube I tried did not exhibit any hum. I've heard a little hum from one or two of these tubes, but nothing too bad.
  6) Telefunken tubes really are nicely balanced and pretty sounding, especially with music like Andreas Vollenweider. Even on a Bravo V2. But I find that I actually prefer other tubes, unless I'm listening to a particular type of music. Don't spend the money on them unless you really know you need to, or you get a good deal.
  7) Newer Mullards like the IEC Mullard I tried, aren't worth spending a bunch of money on. Don't bother.
  8) Tubes newer than the 1960's should be avoided if at all possible.
  9) Rebranded tubes sometimes sound pretty good, but sometimes they don't. Examples: The Conn tube sounds pretty damn nice, but the Baldwin/Sylvania is leaning more towards the quality of the new JJ electronics crap. Don't spend a ton of money on rebranded tubes.
  10) The mil spec 5963 tubes sound damn nice with gritty rock and roll like Seether. I'm really liking the GE 5-star 5963 tubes I found (got a pair for cheap).
   
  So for now things are back to where they started, and I'm back to using the Pure i-20 at work. It is bright, but it brings a certain quality to the music stored on the iPod that I am finding that I like. I just have to remember not to crank it up very high. The side effect of this is that when I get home, my Magni+Modi stack on my Beyer cans sounds a little flat. Not tubey at all. I am now kind of disappointed in this development. I am also wondering if I'm just turning into a tube guy, and maybe I need to get a Valhalla+Bifrost for home instead, LOL.
   
  I guess once you roll tubes, you don't go back?


----------



## techboy

Can anybody tell me the most mid centric tube with forward mids for ocean? Should be much more forward in mids than the stock tube. Model? Make? Price? Where to buy?


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> So I've been flipping my setups around just to play with things. I'm the curious sort I guess. I decided to tinker with this Pure i-20 a bit more, and it's probably been too long for me to return it. Anyway... the "normal" setups I have for home and work go something like this:
> 
> Work: iPod -> (Pure i-20 DAC) -> Bravo V2 -> Sony MDR 7506
> Home: Laptop -> Schiit Modi -> Schiit Magni -> Beyerdynamic DT770/250
> ...


 
  The Dac does not have suficent power to drive cans, they never do UNLESS they have an amp built in them. Secondly you can't run an iPod trough a dac, the data is already run through the iPods in house DAC, even Line out runs the music through a DAC, so I don't know what the DAC does with the audio your send to it but the dac isn;t doing anything for an iPod. 
   
  I could be wrong though, but there are some REALLY expesnive iPod and Droid Dac's out there, and those may be for Phones not so much DAPs like the iPod so yea Don'Ta dac doesn't increase the signal strength or add any aditional power to it. I think it only converts the 0s and 1's into an acutal audio phile, it does add color to the music how ever... but not power I don't think anways...,silly <3. They need an amp to Amplify the power. People as I said b4, the Bravo and the Indeed are DIRT CHEAP, those iGrage things are not  honestly I'd only buy a used Bravo ir Indeed g3, as for the $100 price tag you can get better used Tube amps, BUT if you must have NEW the Brave and Indeed have the BEST BANG for buck I've experinced. so AGAIN, if ur on a SUPER extreme budget they are kings 
   
  Those iGarages thing's are not worth the money imo [but then again i don't mind buying used amps and dacs and cans an stuff <3]


----------



## Evshrug

Mshenay,
The Pure i-20 actually IS one of the devices that can extract the digital audio out from an iDevice, one of the least expensive. I don't know how great the internal DAC is, but it also includes a TOSLINK digital output if you want to connect to another DAC that way. Cheaper than buying a HT receiver with a USB input option. I wonder if they're making a lightning-connector version for all the new iDevices?

I heard rumors that, with an iPad, you can use the USB camera connector dongle to attach an external DAC.


----------



## blueangel2323

umustbkidn said:


> So I've been flipping my setups around just to play with things. I'm the curious sort I guess. I decided to tinker with this Pure i-20 a bit more, and it's probably been too long for me to return it. Anyway... the "normal" setups I have for home and work go something like this:
> 
> Work: iPod -> (Pure i-20 DAC) -> Bravo V2 -> Sony MDR 7506
> Home: Laptop -> Schiit Modi -> Schiit Magni -> Beyerdynamic DT770/250
> ...



 
 You should be comparing the Pure i-20 using the same amp. Could you please compare: Pure i-20 -> Magni vs. Modi -> Magni, and
 Pure i-20 -> Bravo vs. Modi -> Bravo
  
 I would be very curious to know too. Thanks!
 It's too bad that your DACs have no S/PDIF input, otherwise you could use the Pure i-20's digital output.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> The Dac does not have suficent power to drive cans, they never do UNLESS they have an amp built in them. Secondly you can't run an iPod trough a dac, the data is already run through the iPods in house DAC, even Line out runs the music through a DAC, so I don't know what the DAC does with the audio your send to it but the dac isn;t doing anything for an iPod.
> 
> I could be wrong though, but there are some REALLY expesnive iPod and Droid Dac's out there, and those may be for Phones not so much DAPs like the iPod so yea Don'Ta dac doesn't increase the signal strength or add any aditional power to it. I think it only converts the 0s and 1's into an acutal audio phile, it does add color to the music how ever... but not power I don't think anways...,silly <3. They need an amp to Amplify the power. People as I said b4, the Bravo and the Indeed are DIRT CHEAP, those iGrage things are not  honestly I'd only buy a used Bravo ir Indeed g3, as for the $100 price tag you can get better used Tube amps, BUT if you must have NEW the Brave and Indeed have the BEST BANG for buck I've experinced. so AGAIN, if ur on a SUPER extreme budget they are kings
> 
> Those iGarages thing's are not worth the money imo [but then again i don't mind buying used amps and dacs and cans an stuff <3]


 

 Hi M,
   
  There are indeed a few DAC's built explicitly for the purpose of bypassing the internal DAC of an iPod (and hopefully providing something better). There just aren't many cheap ones. I am aware that DAC's do not themselves drive headphones (sorry if that didn't come across properly). What I was looking for was a way to bypass the internal iPod DAC. It is possible. There just aren't a lot of devices that do this, and most of them are pricey. I agree with you though, it seems like the majority of these devices are marketed towards iPhones. But those are just a whole lot like an iPod touch with a phone in it.
   
  Is it kind of silly to spend money on budget hi-fi? Perhaps. In my situation at work, I don't have a lot of choice - I have to have a standalone setup. No touching the computers. So the choices are limited, if one wants better fidelity. The price tag is only an issue because these devices get left on my desk or in an unlocked drawer. If someone walks off with them, I won't be heartbroken. Feel free to chuckle at me for tube rolling a Bravo V2  It's ok, I'm laughing with you lol.
   
  The devices I considered purchasing were:
   
  Pure i-20, $92 on Amazon
http://www.pure.com/product/i-20-vl-61429/
   
  Nuforce Icon Ido, $150
https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&layout=item&id=25&Itemid=188/
   
  HRT iStreamer, $225 on Amazon
http://highresolutiontechnologies.com/istreamer/?product=istreamer
   
  There was another one that DefQon suggested, a few pages back, but I forget the name now. There are a few others in the $200-300 range.
   
  Then there's this crazy expensive thing, $850 bucks LOL I guess it's not available in the US? It's way over priced.
  The Cypher Labs AlgoRythmn Solo
http://cypherlabs.com/product
  Way over the top for me. I'd never spend that kind of money on such a device, and I don't know anyone dumb enough to.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> You should be comparing the Pure i-20 using the same amp. Could you please compare:  Pure i-20 -> Magni vs. Modi -> Magni, and
> Pure i-20 -> Bravo vs. Modi -> Bravo
> 
> I would be very curious to know too. Thanks!
> It's too bad that your DACs have no S/PDIF input, otherwise you could use the Pure i-20's digital output.


 
   
  Hi Blue,
   
  Good point. I didn't go down that road, but I am now curious too. One of my goals, which I didn't discuss, was to find a tube that would dampen the brightness of the Pure i-20. I was pleasantly surprised when most of the NOS tubes had this effect. The only ones that really didn't were a couple of the rebranded tubes, and the new manufacture tubes: JJ Electronics, the Electro Harmonix, and the stock Bravo tube. The stock Bravo tube, in particular, was REALLY screechy with the Pure i-20 in line. I almost threw the tube away when I heard that. I still might, haha. People don't seem to throw tubes away that they don't like - they put them on eBay. I'm not going to screw anyone like that. I'll just toss them at some point.
   
  What would you think about choosing perhaps one to three of the best tubes (say, a Tele, a Mullard, and my current fave, the GE 5963), and running the comparison you suggest?
   
  Also, of the test music selection I mentioned, which would you suggest? Or do you have another suggestion you'd like me to try?
   
  Thanks, now I'm excited, I have a new quest, haha


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Mshenay,
> The Pure i-20 actually IS one of the devices that can extract the digital audio out from an iDevice, one of the least expensive. I don't know how great the internal DAC is, but it also includes a TOSLINK digital output if you want to connect to another DAC that way. Cheaper than buying a HT receiver with a USB input option. I wonder if they're making a lightning-connector version for all the new iDevices?
> 
> I heard rumors that, with an iPad, you can use the USB camera connector dongle to attach an external DAC.


 
  Oh that's cool. Silly me lol. Last time I had an iPod no such device was on the market. Still that's good to know. Non the less, hook ur Dac to an amp always. In addition I guess it's neat that the i-20 can send data to yet another Dac lol, seems like by that point ur better off just using ur pc and a standard dac instead of havin 2 other pieces of hardware in the mix to pay for xD


----------



## Judge Buff

Hahahahaha!

UMBK, great shot! You must have sunk him, because there isn't even an oil slick left...


----------



## mvrk10256

Snagged a holland bugle boy tube from ebay for cheap. Sounds really good. Much richer and brighter than even the Mallard.


----------



## Helltech

I would love to know from people who have some Beyers (preferable 990s) how these sound vs a magni. I'm on the fence about which to get. I keep hearing that the magni brings out the already lackluster treble in the 990s


----------



## Kingdom4Cans

Quote: 





helltech said:


> I would love to know from people who have some Beyers (preferable 990s) how these sound vs a magni. I'm on the fence about which to get. I keep hearing that the magni brings out the already lackluster treble in the 990s


 
   
  I've been trying to find some opinions on this myself.  I've heard that the 990s really excel with tubes, but I've never heard it for myself.  I was planning on buying the 990s to go with my Bravo, but I couldn't wait to upgrade to the schiit stack. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  My Bravo V2 is currently for sale on Ebay.  If you are leaning that way I can tell you that you won't be disappointed, and it will ship faster than coming from china (took three weeks to get to me).


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *blueangel2323* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> You should be comparing the Pure i-20 using the same amp. Could you please compare:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ok, here we go. Using a Mullard 12AU7/ECC82 tube, code K51 B8C (Blackburn factory, March 1958 near as I can tell). Ipod nano 6th gen in the Pure i-20. Using Sony MDR 7506 cans w/Beyer earpad mod because both setups can drive it properly. Laptop with iTunes driving the Modi. Both laptop and iPod volumes set to max. All sound enhancement and EQ turned off.
   
  The Music:
  1) Andreas Vollenweider, Book of Roses: In Doga Gamee (An amazing recording even for it's age)
  2) Pat Metheney, One Quiet Night: Ferry across the Mercy (Just flat out lovely guitar, can hear the instrument worked heavily in this tune)
  3) Lindsey Stirling: We Found Love (single) (Chosen for the really low drums, and a nice vocal+violin recording without the overpowering electronics)
  4) Seether, Finding Beauty in Negative Spaces: Like Suicide
  5) Led Zeppelin, Celebration Day (Live): No Quarter
   
  The first two are apple lossless, the rest are 256 Kbps AAC. Sorry, it's what I had on hand. Only the Seether recording is a bit iffy, the rest are ok. My reasons for choosing these recordings will become obvious as I review them below. I listen to all of these recordings on a regular basis.
   
  I decided to play each song on each setup back to back, and write my impressions as I listen. I also decided to begin with the i-20/Bravo, then jump to the M+M stack first. I will swap the amps and dacs then repeat.
   
  Trial setup #1
   
  Pure i-20 -> Bravo
  =============
  1) The piano is dynamic and bright. Bass guitar is prominent, sounds quite nice for a set of cans not known for bass response. Guitar is a bit hidden by the piano and drums. The flute is a bit overwhelmed by the rest, but comes out plainly enough. Oboe sound is very sweet. Not sure what AW is playing in this tune, but all the string instruments are well presented (they do all seem to be competing with each other). The drums are actually a bit too loud. When the harmonica comes in, it seems overly loud. The system responds to the speed of the piano well. This album in general sounds very sweet on the Bravo with the Mullard, a good example of why people like tubes.
   
  2) The bass notes on the acoustic guitar in the opening sequence almost seem a bit boomy. What I like about this song is you can hear PM working the guitar clearly on every note. The higher notes come through with a lot of clarity and beauty. This is a man making love to a guitar, as much as he is playing it. It is amazing to listen to how the guitar is worked in this song, and the tube amp just makes that come through with a lot of dynamic and soul.
   
  3) The song starts with some ungodly low drum beats, which are on the verge of rattling my skull. The vocals in this song range the entire scale, and my lord they are sweet. The woman singing the lead part is a bit louder than she should be, but maybe I've just got it cranked up too far lol  Lindsey's violin playing is subdued but still sweet in this song (she's usually surrounded by a lot of electronic keyboarding and drums, not so here). The real star in this song are the drums and African inspired vocals: very very nice, accurate, and dare I say, tubey.
   
  4) Electric guitar seems to be noisy from the start. Drums are pronounced, bass guitar is very impressive. When the chorus starts, I hear something harsh enough (presuming electric guitar noise) to make me turn the volume down. I'm not sure what it is, but this is some of the harshness the Pure i-20 produces when playing songs with a lot of guitar distortion. I want to turn it up but the harshness makes me turn it back down. This makes me want to just listen to the ipod alone.
   
  5) This song, as the rest of the recording, is a little bit of nirvana for those of us who grew up in the 70s and/or listened to a lot of Led Zeppelin. After 1980 we never thought we'd hear the band play live again, and though they tried a couple times, they never really succeeded until 2007, with this live set. These guys can still play, and you'd never know you're listening to a bunch of 65-ish year olds. Jason Bonham is every bit the drummer his father was, and what an event this had to be for him. This particular song showcases each musician in one way or another, and it just comes across as very pretty, very lovely, and absolutely live sounding, especially the jazzy break in the middle of the song. Considering most of the rest of Led Zeppelin's music was recorded over 30 years ago, the sound of this recording is awesome in comparison.
   
   
  Modi -> Magni
  ===========
  1) The piano is a bit less bright, but still has speedy response on this setup. Bass guitar notes are just as pronounced on this setup, also nice on these cans. The drums do not seem quite as overwhelming. The guitar and other strings do not stand out quite as much as they did on the tube. The oboe sound is also not quite as sweet sounding. Flute seems to stand out a bit more on this setup, as does the guitar. That damn harmonica is still too loud lol, but a little less annoying on the M+M. The vocals sound quite different: I'd have to say a bit veiled. Overall the song is a bit more clinical sounding, but not by leaps and bounds. It's less dynamic but more balanced.
   
  2) The opening low notes are still boomy on the M+M stack. The working of the guitar, while still audible, is not as clear or dynamic on the solid state setup. The high notes are still clear and beautiful, but they're just a bit veiled in comparison to the tube. The recording comes across as less dynamic in general. This is still a man making love to a guitar, but he's behind a curtain on this recording (as opposed to standing right in your face).
   
  3) The drums that begin the song are just as dynamic and booming on the M+M stack. The female lead vocal sounds like she's standing next to me this time. Lindsey's violin seems to be farther in the background. Turning down the volume a bit lol. The other vocals are less pronounced on this recording, while the lead singer seems to stand out more, very curious. The drum break in the middle of the song sounds a bit more clinical this time. Definitely not tubey sounding, but very clear, accurate, pretty.
   
  4) Electric guitar noise still present in opening sequence. Bass guitar and drums come in sounding solid. Vocals are not as harsh. When the chorus hits, I am not overwhelmed with the harshness present on the Pure/Bravo setup. I can still crank this song up and listen to it with some volume. IMO the M+M stack is superior to the tube amp on this recording, because it's just not nearly as harsh and bright.
   
  5) As the song starts with the keyboard, its very difficult to discern any difference in quality between the setups. Probably due to the live recording. When the drums and guitar kicks in, it sounds pretty similar to the tube setup. Very hard to hear much difference in this case. If anything, the M+M stack comes across a bit cleaner. I think I can pick up more detail in Plant's voice and Page's guitar than the other setup. The jazzy break in the middle of the song sounds pretty damn sweet either way. Yes, I do believe I like this song better on the M+M stack.
   
  To Be Continued...
  (Sorry, I'm tired and I need to collapse .. I will resume tomorrow evening)


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> Hahahahaha!
> 
> UMBK, great shot! You must have sunk him, because there isn't even an oil slick left...


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





helltech said:


> I would love to know from people who have some Beyers (preferable 990s) how these sound vs a magni. I'm on the fence about which to get. I keep hearing that the magni brings out the already lackluster treble in the 990s


 
  Both amp's will have no problems driving the 990 (250/600ohm) superbly. The Bravo/Indeed/Sunrise add more body and fun factor to the sound, the Magni can elevate the 990's harsh treble a bit and can sound a bit lifeless.


----------



## Cafofo

I bought my BravoAudio V2 recently and just now i can test it... but there´s something is weird... it would be a stereo amp, right? My amp seems like a mono sound. Using RCA cable, if i unplug Left cable, the sound keeping playing in both chanes in my Headphone, even if i use a 3.5mm cable on entrance, the result is the same.
 Testing on computer with sounds in diferents channels, it´s always do that, it mixes both channels no matter where the signal comes from. It´s because the tube or it´s brokem or... ? ?


----------



## mvrk10256

I believe it mixes them. This is (one) oif the reasons to do the cross talk mod. You can look in my thread for more details. But if you jump that connection it will go to separate channels.


----------



## Cafofo

mvrk10256 said:


> I believe it mixes them. This is (one) oif the reasons to do the cross talk mod. You can look in my thread for more details. But if you jump that connection it will go to separate channels.




I Just saw about noise when talking about crosstalk mod. But if you said i can go with separate channels doing that, ill try soon =) Thank you!


----------



## Cafofo

cafofo said:


> I Just saw about noise when talking about crosstalk mod. But if you said i can go with separate channels doing that, ill try soon =) Thank you!




I Did but i think i dont get any result. Aplying a sound test with Right/Left chanel i can hear on both speakers even if only Left or Right conector(RCA) is plugged. =(


----------



## UmustBKidn

Continuing the comparison... sorry for the delay.
   
  Reminder: The Music:
  1) Andreas Vollenweider, Book of Roses: In Doga Gamee
  2) Pat Metheney, One Quiet Night: Ferry across the Mercy
  3) Lindsey Stirling: We Found Love (single)
  4) Seether, Finding Beauty in Negative Spaces: Like Suicide
  5) Led Zeppelin, Celebration Day (Live): No Quarter
   
  Modi -> Bravo
  ===========
  1) As I fired this song up, I had to do a double take and make sure I had it set up correctly. I am amazed at what I am hearing. I listened all the way through the song and decided to switch back to the Pure i-20 -> Bravo setup, just to make sure. The Pure i-20 drives the Bravo harder than the Modi for the same volume settings. When I bump the Bravo volume up using the Modi to what sounds like an equal setting, what I hear is a better balance of sound, lower bass notes, cleaner high end, and no sharp brightness in the high frequencies. The annoying harshness simply is not there, using the Modi to drive the Bravo. Oh, what a joy. The difference is not night and day - but it is there. Now I'm bummed, lol, because I can't listen to this setup at work.
   
  2) This is a damn pretty song on this combo. The working of the guitar I described in the previous comparison is still quite audible, but the strings don't "screech" quite as much as I listen. This is in line with my other observations: The sound reproduction of the Modi is accurate but smoother than the Pure i-20, and I'm not having to listen to artificial harshness in the music.
   
  3) The opening drum beat is just effing marvelous lol. It's almost like sitting in the front row of a theater with Sensurround speakers (remember those?) Had to notch the volume down a teeny bit. The lead vocal is a bit bright. A bit brighter than I like, so I adjust volume a bit. I am amazed at the low frequency response I'm hearing on the drum solo in the middle of the song, on these Sony cans. Not quite like my Beyers, but damn close.
   
  4) Yeah, I can listen to the chorus on this song without adjusting the volume down, with the Modi driving the Bravo. And that lovely guitar distortion is nice and crunchy ... yeah, that's why I wanted to listen to a tube. I like my distortion un-distorted, LOL. Does that make sense? Gawd I hope it does, because that's what it sure seems like. I can just listen to this song without futzing with the volume control. Nice.
   
  5) There's a definite trend going on: I keep turning the Modi-Bravo combination up, cuz it sounds good, and the Pure-Magni combination down, so I can tolerate it. The Modi-Bravo does get a little boomy on this song if I go too far up on the volume. The jazzy part in the middle of this song sounds so nice though. I can hear Jason tapping on some cymbals during the piano solo that I hadn't heard before. It's up high enough to hear detail without being annoying - that's the bottom line for the Modi-Bravo combination. Yeah. And I continue to be impressed by the Sony MDR 7506 cans.
   
   
  Pure i-20 -> Magni
  ==============
  1) I had to drop the volume control down about 20% as soon as I started the song. Yes, the song is rough around the edges, as it were, coming through the Pure i-20. The Magni can't mask that harshness, it just amplifies it. I had to keep turning the volume down as I listened. Especially when the harmonica kicked in, good lord lol. The volume control is backed down to 9:30 or so, which is a lot lower than I usually run my Magni (which is usually set around 12-1 o'clock). Amazing. Yes, the harshness definitely followed the DAC. The verdict is pretty clear at this point.
   
  2) My immediate impression is the sound of the guitar strings remind me of being "plucked" instead of strummed. There is a certain "twang" in the tone present in the Pure i-20, that isn't there on the Modi. Every time PM hits a single note, that twang is what I'm hearing. It's distracting. The nature of this song went from a lovely solo guitar to an exercise in twanginess lol. It's not a huge difference, again this is on the subtle side. But it's noticeable. And I had to notch down the volume again.
   
  3) Opening drum beat is just as impressive here, but wow when the lead vocal kicks in, I'm dropping the volume control again. The backing vocals are now producing an annoying hiss whenever an "ess" sound is being sung. There's the harshness of the i-20 again, I suppose. It goes away if I back down the volume some, but then I'm giving up some of the sound I wanted.
   
  4) I'm cringing as I wait for the chorus to hit... then I remember I had it turned down from the previous song. Ok. So, I just have to keep the volume down to a certain level using the Pure i-20, because if it goes up too high, it just starts becoming annoying. Anything with an "ess" sound to it, and certain types of guitar distortion, are just annoying on the Pure i-20. It's just a distraction from everything else.
   
  5) The Magni is turned down enough by this point to make listening to this sound enjoyable, but I'm not cranking anything up. It just isn't quite as nice as the other setup. Not a huge difference, but it is limiting. What a shame. On the other hand, for budget Hi-fi, maybe this isn't so bad.
   
  Conclusions
  =========
  The Modi DAC is clearly superior to the Pure i-20. It is smooth and accurate, regardless of which amplifier it is driving. Plug it into even a cheap hybrid tube amp like the Bravo V2, and you will hear some really nice, tubey music, assuming of course you pick the right music, heh. This exercise has also proven to me that there really is a need for different types of amplifiers for different types of music, and this effect is noticeable even with budget hi fi.
   
  I am also just really astounded at the sonic quality of an unmodified Bravo V2 with a vintage Mullard tube in it. Yes, I know, lots of people like to mod this little amp, and one day I may take a shot at that too. But I'm naturally lazy LOL, so I really like just unplugging a tube and trying another one. I picked the Mullard because I am really sure lots of people know what they sound like, but I must say that the quality of many of the vintage tubes I have tried are also perfectly fine for a budget setup like this. I did not pay a lot for this Mullard (it is well used), and I would not recommend anyone going out to pay $50 bucks for a high testing NOS tube... absolutely any 60's vintage long grey plate 12AU7 or 5963 tube sounds just great in this little amp. The differences between tubes are very hard to notice (though I am sure they'd be more obvious with a better amp).
   
  What really impresses me is the quality of all of this gear. Even the Pure i-20 is passable if you don't crank the volume control up too high. For the last couple days I've been using my old Sony MDR NC-40 and an iPod shuffle at work, because I didn't want to keep trucking this stuff back and forth. The sonic difference between that setup and any of this gear is astounding LOL. I am nit picking in comparison to the difference of that setup. I could live with just using the Sony MDR 7506 cans and a plain iPod if I had to, that would be a lot better all by itself. The Pure i-20 becomes annoying when I crank the volume up to the level I like (being a former musician, that level is rather high). But by itself it does make a nice stand to hold my iPod on my desk at work, and I can't listen to loud music all day long anyway.
   
  There is no reason to purchase a Pure i-20 unless you require a standalone source like an iPod, and you want to hook it into an exterior amp or another DAC, or perhaps watch some video should you have an iPod with video on it (I did not test this feature). My sole reason for purchasing the Pure i-20 was to bypass the iPod's internal DAC and plumb it into an amp, hoping for improved sound quality. At this juncture I am wishing I had purchased the Nuforce Icon Ido, hoping that the DAC in that unit would not be so bright and screechy. But that's $150 bucks that I am not going to spend. Perhaps my advice will spare someone else the expense of this mistake. It would have been perfectly acceptable to just plumb my iPod directly into the Bravo.
   
  Another curious thing I noted, was that my Magni seemed to be running hotter when the Pure i-20 was driving it. I didn't try to swap DACs and compare the temperatures, I just remember when I usually shut the amp down, it's never running this warm, when the Modi is driving it. Based on my earlier observation that the Pure drove the Magni harder than the Modi did, I'm guessing this is a side effect. So the Pure is producing higher output than the Modi. Pity that it's not better quality.
   
  Last note: The Sony MDR 7506 using the Beyer earpad mod has really impressed me over the course of this experiment. I continue to be astounded at the low frequency production of these cans, especially given their frequency response (they show quite a dip on the low end on headphone.com). Some think the Beyer earpads improve low frequency response. I can't argue with that. They sure do sound good.


----------



## blueangel2323

Thanks for the comparison, very helpful. My iPhone is my main source so I was considering the i-20 to bypass the internal DAC and connect to my amp. Unfortunately the line-out on my universal iPod dock is very noisy and it gets quite obvious when I turn up the amp.   
But the i-20 is also the cheapest dock that can bypass the iDevice internal DAC and it also has digital out. So maybe I should get a DAC that has SPDIF in and hook it up that way?


----------



## mvrk10256

Anyone ever combine one of these with a grubDAC? 
   
  I have extended screws due to my larger caps, and I ordered the grubDAC, and was thinking of installing it on the lower plexi shelf. Then just hard wire it into the input.


----------



## Maxibully

i also just bought one of these babys from ebay(ithink its the same,mine has  little bear on the glass display)
  anyway i just thought it would be fun to see what u can get for around 35 dollar
  never had a tbe amp before so i have nothing to reference it to, and my other 2 amps are solid state
  also boughta cheap china dac (muse  with usb toslink and coax) ill set this up on my desktop and use it with my pc i think
  anyway will put out my thoughts when i have received this little bugger


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





mvrk10256 said:


> Snagged a holland bugle boy tube from ebay for cheap. Sounds really good. Much richer and brighter than even the Mallard.


 
  Oh wow nice
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> Both amp's will have no problems driving the 990 (250/600ohm) superbly. The Bravo/Indeed/Sunrise add more body and fun factor to the sound, the Magni can elevate the 990's harsh treble a bit and can sound a bit lifeless.


 
  I really enjoyed my 990 250 ohm with my Indeed G3


----------



## techboy

I am also getting mono sound from my Bravo Ocean. How to correct it?


----------



## cheaphifi

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Both amp's will have no problems driving the 990 (250/600ohm) superbly. The Bravo/Indeed/Sunrise add more body and fun factor to the sound, the Magni can elevate the 990's harsh treble a bit and can sound a bit lifeless.


 
   
  Don't melt Sunrise and Bravo/Indeed in terme of sound quality the Project Sunrise is one or two step above any Bravo/Indeed, even when intensively modded at its best...
   
  Comparing a Bravo and a Sunrise is like comparing the cheapest Little Dot Vs a Woo Audio WA6, it's not really the same category.


----------



## mvrk10256

You know I really wish I could get some time on a surise. I am curious if its actually better than my modded Bravo.


----------



## cheaphifi

Quote: 





mvrk10256 said:


> You know I really wish I could get some time on a surise. I am curious if its actually better than my modded Bravo.


 
   
  If you don't Need preamp and RCA output, you can go for the Project Starlight, it's powerful enough to drive even a vintage AKG K340 and it's cheaper (190$ for a built Starlight, 250$ for a built Sunrise, kit are 35$ cheaper but you need skill to build them).. it's almost the same sound (perhaps less Bass-slam than a Sunrise).


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> If you don't Need preamp and RCA output, you can go for the Project Starlight, it's powerful enough to drive even a vintage AKG K340 and it's cheaper (190$ for a built Starlight, 250$ for a built Sunrise, kit are 35$ cheaper but you need skill to build them).. it's almost the same sound (perhaps less Bass-slam than a Sunrise).


 
  for around $250 ur getting into LIttle Dot MK Iv used territory. There are much better amps at that price point, now if you want a Hybrid. I have no clue. But pure tubes, around $250 there a a lot of them. Still I've always thought of my hybrid tubes as gateways into pure tubes. Still if u really dig the hybrid. Then I'm sure the Sunrise might be good stuff! For the price but stop brining that up in this thread. This thread is for the Bravo [and the indeed since they are same price point and goal essitanly]


----------



## mvrk10256

I feel like for ~200-250 I would get a Little Dot MKIII and call it good. Buddy has one, and I love the sound.


----------



## Godthul

The Sunrise is miles ahead of the bravo.  I modded my bravo, and it still does not compare to the Sunrise ii.  The bravo really struggles when faced with headphones that are hard to drive, like the fostex t50rp or AKG k702s.  The sunrise is putting out almost a watt in that range, and drives them with ease.
   
  Another great thing about the Sunrise II is tube rolling.  It fits an obscene amount of tubes--both 12v and 6v.
  The Sunrise II also allows for proper baising of the tubes which is impossible on the bravo even with mods.  
   
  The amp just sounds fantastic.  I don't have any experience with the Little Dot MKIII for comparison though.


----------



## cheaphifi

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Then I'm sure the Sunrise might be good stuff! For the price but stop brining that up in this thread. This thread is for the Bravo [and the indeed since they are same price point and goal essitanly]


 
   
  Sorry I was a little too enthusiastic about the sunrise and I forgot that I was not in the right thread.

 I would be careful in the future.


----------



## mvrk10256

Quote: 





godthul said:


> The Sunrise is miles ahead of the bravo.  I modded my bravo, and it still does not compare to the Sunrise ii.  The bravo really struggles when faced with headphones that are hard to drive, like the fostex t50rp or AKG k702s.  The sunrise is putting out almost a watt in that range, and drives them with ease.
> 
> Another great thing about the Sunrise II is tube rolling.  It fits an obscene amount of tubes--both 12v and 6v.
> The Sunrise II also allows for proper *baising of the tubes which is impossible on the bravo even with mods*.
> ...


 
  That not true. You can set up the bravo to control biasing. I dont have the link in front of me but its on the rock grotto modding thread.


----------



## DefQon

Ok where to start as there seem's to be a lot of miss-information here.....
   
   
  Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> Don't melt Sunrise and Bravo/Indeed in terme of sound quality the Project Sunrise is one or two step above any Bravo/Indeed, even when intensively modded at its best...
> 
> Comparing a Bravo and a Sunrise is like comparing the cheapest Little Dot Vs a Woo Audio WA6, it's not really the same category.


 
  The Sunrise, Bravo, Indeed are all based on the same class a 12AU7 circuit with the original Sunrise a bit modified taking into account of no limitations and skimping out on quality with price ratio.
   
  The P-S is indeed a step above the Bravo and Indeed but with extensive modding and fixing the flaws of the circuitry of the Bravo and Indeed where they skipped out due to cost on the Bravo and Indeed, the latter two are not very far off behind the Sunrise.
   
  This is coming from someone who has built and modded over 4 Project Sunrise II amps, over a dozen Indeed G2, G1 and Bravo v1, v2 and v3 amp's.
   
  There comes a saying you get what you pay for and this applies exactly to the Bravo and Indeed line of amp's. The Indeed G3 is almost neck to neck against P-S overall. 
   
  What else is disappointing is that I'm currently rebuilding my Bravo v2 in a full sized enclosure with a regulated 24v power supply, change of resistors, pot, hp / rca jacks etc to better parts to see how far I can take a $50 hybrid tube amp to. Measuring the cheap resistors used show alot of drift from my DMM away from it's original rated values which is obviously 1 factor to decreasing the sound quality as the rated resistance is all over the place. 
   
  As with Little Dot vs Woo WA6, that depends on which Little Dot amp you're talking about, the LD MK 1,2 and 3's are nothing special as evident from there prices, just for references, my LD MK VI+ wipes the floor compared to all the dynamic Woo amp's up to the WA5, an amp that cost 3.5x as much as my VI+, and they are both neck to neck on some area's of sound. There is also nothing special about Woo amp's except the cost you're paying is a good build and fancy enclosure, the circuitry are bog standard ones that have been around for decades modified from time to time, in this case a circuitry that Jack has thrown a bunch of fancy boutique parts thinking it will dramatically improve the sound of. Very much alike as some experience posters here saying Ray Samuals Darkstar amp is nothing but a hot rodded (fail infact) gainclone amplifier costing much less.
   
  Quote: 





godthul said:


> The bravo really struggles when faced with headphones that are hard to drive, like the fostex t50rp or AKG k702s.  The sunrise is putting out almost a watt in that range, and drives them with ease.


 
  Tell me you're joking with this post? T50RP and AKG K/Q70X headphones are not hard to drive end of story. A bee's dick Fiio E5 can even drive the K702's, they don't need power, same can be said for the stock woeful T50RP's. If you're finding it hard to drive them, then it mean's you failed to mod your Bravo properly or have a broken unit, because I can tell you, these can drive 600ohm high z Beyer DT990 Prem's no problem or my LCD2's for that matter.
   
  Quote: 





mvrk10256 said:


> That not true. You can set up the bravo to control biasing. I dont have the link in front of me but its on the rock grotto modding thread.


 
  Indeed the Bravo can be modded for biasing, you need to remove the two small Rubycon caps next to the tube socket in between the volume jack, 1 trimpot for each channel. Rockgrotto has extensive information on the exact value of the trimpot you need.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





blueangel2323 said:


> Thanks for the comparison, very helpful. My iPhone is my main source so I was considering the i-20 to bypass the internal DAC and connect to my amp. Unfortunately the line-out on my universal iPod dock is very noisy and it gets quite obvious when I turn up the amp.
> But the i-20 is also the cheapest dock that can bypass the iDevice internal DAC and it also has digital out. So maybe I should get a DAC that has SPDIF in and hook it up that way?


 
   
  Well, for sure the i-20 bypasses the internal iPod DAC, and it isn't noisy per se. What it is, is very bright. It does bring a level of detail to my setup that I can hear even in a Bravo V2. I just can't crank it up as much as I like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  It also does a nice job of holding up the iPod, as a stand - so if that's something you need, it does that quite well. The other two DACs I mentioned in my review don't have that feature. I am not sure what else to recommend. There are not many choices when it comes to an iPod DAC. My next choice would have been the Nuforce Icon Ido (which I believe uses some sort of 30-pin connector, not a dock or stand, to connect the iPod).


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





godthul said:


> The Sunrise is miles ahead of the bravo.  I modded my bravo, and it still does not compare to the Sunrise ii.  The bravo really struggles when faced with headphones that are hard to drive, like the fostex t50rp or AKG k702s.  The sunrise is putting out almost a watt in that range, and drives them with ease.
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> Ok where to start as there seem's to be a lot of miss-information here.....
> ...  Tell me you're joking with this post? T50RP and AKG K/Q70X headphones are not hard to drive end of story. A bee's dick Fiio E5 can even drive the K702's, they don't need power, same can be said for the stock woeful T50RP's. If you're finding it hard to drive them, then it mean's you failed to mod your Bravo properly or have a broken unit, because I can tell you, these can drive 600ohm high z Beyer DT990 Prem's no problem or my LCD2's for that matter.
> ...


 
   
  Gentlemen, I have a question. You raise an issue I noted in my comparison: I could not use my Beyerdynamic DT770/250 cans, because the bottom end response disappeared when using the Bravo to drive them. I assumed this was an impedance issue, and did not investigate further. Now you're making me wonder.
   
  My Sony MDR 7506 cans (63 ohm impedance) can be driven nicely with the Bravo V2, and exhibited surprisingly good bottom end response during the comparison. All combinations of the two DACs and two amplifiers drove the Sony cans equally well. I can't say the same for the Beyerdynamic cans. This makes me wonder what I am hearing ... is there a defect in either my Bravo or my Beyers? Is there an impedance issue going on? Can the Amp/Dac combination effect this? I am curious to hear your opinions.
   
  Thank you kindly.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Godthul* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...
> 
> Another great thing about the Sunrise II is tube rolling.  It fits an obscene amount of tubes--both 12v and 6v.
> ...


 
   
  I'm sorry, but I kind of have to snicker at this. I think I bought some 30-odd tubes, of several types, for my Bravo V2 tube rolling exercise. I think that's obscene enough. After all, if you're going to go to the expense of spending what, another hundred bucks on tubes (even if you get them cheaply, like I did), then one must question, why not get a better amp, as DefQon said? I mean, this is almost the same logic as dropping a v-8 engine into a golf cart. Even if you could get it to work, why not spend the money for a better amp? It's just simple economics. By the time you spend $150-200 for any Sunrise amp, and another hundred bucks on tubes, you could buy a Bottlehead Crack or a Schiit Valhalla, both of which would outdo any of these little hybrid amps, from what I can tell.
   
  I am also getting kind of tired of the constant Bravo Bashing going on. Quite frankly I'm tired of hearing about how awesome you guys think these Sunrise amps are. Even if you're right, I'm not reading this thread to listen to your constant preaching. Thank you for your understanding.


----------



## techboy

Hi guys, I have a few doubts regarding Bravo Ocean (I do own one at the moment though):
   
  1. Does this amp drive the following headphones really well?
   
  a) AKG 7xx series
  b) Senn HD 600 and HD 650
  c) Beyerdynamic DT 880 600 ohm
  d) Mr.Speakers Mad Dogs
  e) Mid level orthos like yamaha and Mad Dogs etc
   
  By really well I don't mean the volume alone, but also the quality, tonality and dynamics. And how well does it fare in the sub $150 non DIY market for these headphones?
   
  2. I know it is not meant to drive high end phones, but does it at least make them sound better than mid range phones out of itself? Like HD 800, LCD 2, HD 500 etc?
   
  3. How does Bravo Ocean compare to Indeed G3? to Project Sunrise II? to Schiit Magni? to O2? Is the difference huge or fairly small?
   
  4. Which are the best tubes which are mid focussed with rich lush and forward mids?


----------



## DefQon

@uMustBeKiddn: I had no problems driving a pair of DT990 600ohm's on my Bravo before it was even modded, I've had my Bravo little over 2 years now so.
  Quote: 





techboy said:


> Hi guys, I have a few doubts regarding Bravo Ocean (I do own one at the moment though):
> 
> 1. Does this amp drive the following headphones really well?
> 
> ...


 
  It can drive all those headphones. If you're going to use high z (greater than 250ohm headphones) I'd look at the Bottlehead Crack which is light year's ahead of any of these amplifiers. 
   
  Bravo Ocean is similar to the original Bravo v2 but improved in a lot of ways, it is about on par with the G3. The G3 is not far off behind the Sunrise II. The Schit Magni and O2 sounds boring, bland, clinical and cold compared to the funness of the mentioned tube amp's.
   
  Mid range tubes with good detail and forward mids would have to be the green letter Sylvania 12AU7's or RCA Clear Tops (1950's with pinched tip) or Valvo/RFT ECC88 equivalents but these can fetch for a lot of money.


----------



## techboy

Do you think going from a Bravo Ocean to a Project Sunrise II is a huge upgrade? For me the total cost including shipping and customs is $100 for Ocean, $400 for PSII and $700 for Schiit Lyr. Do you think an upgrade makes sense at these rates? Is the difference big enough? I already have the Ocean.


----------



## mvrk10256

Probably not. I would look at the MKIII instead than PSII


----------



## techboy

Little Dot MKIII will end up costing a little over $300 for me. Is it a huge jump from Ocean? I don't want a dark sound. I like how Ocean sounds. Does MKIII sound dark? Also, I don't want something where I need to adjust the bias.
   
  Also, how many mW does Ocean output at 32ohm and 600 ohm?


----------



## techboy

How do Little Dot MK III, IV, IV SE and Lyr compare? How do these compare with each other esp for low impedance phones and as preamps?


----------



## mvrk10256

I have searched in the past and not found a direct comparo between that many amps. Just read the individual reviews.


----------



## mvrk10256

For the Lazy:
   
Project Sunrise II Review
Schiit Lyr Review
Little Dot MKIII Review
Little Dot MKIV SE
Little Dot MKV Review


----------



## techboy

I have access to the individual reviews but I need a comparison between them


----------



## mvrk10256

Well good luck with that. If you find anything please post it here. 
   
  all I can say is this.... My bud has a MKIII and he plugged his HD650's into my Bravo and we went back and forth on it. The MKIII is definitly warmer, and does a better job driving the 650's. On here you can often snag a MKIII for less than $200 shipped. It will be my next Tube amp purchase. 
   
  For now I will be adding a grubDAC to my bravo to see how good I can get it.


----------



## DefQon

$400? I'd look at something else that would be better than the Sunrise at that cost range. I'm guessing you are from Europe?


----------



## techboy

I am from India. I need to pay:

US retail 
Plus shipping
Plus customs on both the above at 35%


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





defqon said:


> @uMustBeKiddn: I had no problems driving a pair of DT990 600ohm's on my Bravo before it was even modded, I've had my Bravo little over 2 years now so.
> ...


 
   
  Well. Now I don't know what to think. Can Sony MDR 7506's be that much better than Beyerdynamic DT770 / 250 ohm cans? Because that's what it sounds like. Now that I've run all this stuff side by side, I am at a loss to understand what is going on. The only combination I own that properly drives my Beyer cans is the Magni+Modi stack.
   
  See, I'm leaning towards getting another Bravo for my home setup to replace the Magni. This comparison has altered my perceptions. As you mentioned, the tube sound is superior, even coming out of a Bravo (albeit with a better tube than the stock piece of crap). But I'm not going to do this if I also have to buy another set of cans. Another hundred bucks plus the cost of another Bravo? No. I'd rather take a step up and get the Bottlehead Crack, and keep my Beyers in line (I am sure the Bottlehead Crack will drive my Beyers - Lord, I hope so lol).
   
  I just don't understand why the bottom end drops out when I plug my Beyers into the Bravo V2. I've re-checked all of the connections, wiggled the plugs while I'm listening, etc. No noise, not even so much as a pop - everything is solid. This is a mystery. Even stranger, as I listen to the Beyers on the M+M stack, with the same music I did my review with ... it doesn't have the same dynamics any more. What have I done to myself?!
   
  One possibility does cross my mind - now that my brain has been through all this new tweaking with different setups, I wonder if I've reset my brain cells somehow? LOL. You know, the people who say all these perceptions of sound are imagination (like burn in, etc)? Or, what if the combination of a good DAC (the Modi) and a tube amp (the Bravo) has just reset my expectations enough so that I'm ... ruined? No longer a virgin? ... can that be true? At my age? ...
   
  What's just as sad is, I'm not really happy with my work setup any more either. I don't like how bright that damn i-20 is when driving the Bravo. And maybe it's all that brightness that screws me up, so when I come home to a solid state setup, its just not that exciting any more. Damn. Someone warned me this hobby was going to get expensive.


----------



## RAZRr1275

I had a very heavily modded bravo v2 for a bit before owning a project sunrise ii and later a project ember. The fully modded bravo struggled heavily driving my modded Fostex T50RPs and AKG K702s. The bottom dropped out and it sounded incredibly sluggish.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





mvrk10256 said:


> I feel like for ~200-250 I would get a Little Dot MKIII and call it good. Buddy has one, and I love the sound.


 
  Agreed 
  Quote: 





godthul said:


> The Sunrise is miles ahead of the bravo.  I modded my bravo, and it still does not compare to the Sunrise ii.  The bravo really struggles when faced with headphones that are hard to drive, like the fostex t50rp or AKG k702s.  The sunrise is putting out almost a watt in that range, and drives them with ease.
> 
> Another great thing about the Sunrise II is tube rolling.  It fits an obscene amount of tubes--both 12v and 6v.
> The Sunrise II also allows for proper baising of the tubes which is impossible on the bravo even with mods.


 
  OMG my Indeed G3 can roll 12v and 6v tubes, and WOW it cost like $80 bucks used -.- seriously Sun Rise II is nice but it's not some one of a kind SUPER bargin tube. It's just another option in another price point. A price point mind you that were not talking about


----------



## jaywillin

here's a g3 just raring to go !!


----------



## DefQon

razrr1275 said:


> I had a very heavily modded bravo v2 for a bit before owning a project sunrise ii and later a project ember. The fully modded bravo struggled heavily driving my modded Fostex T50RPs and AKG K702s. The bottom dropped out and it sounded incredibly sluggish.




I still don't see how this is possible and why a few of you are saying you had trouble driving those mentioned headphones,especially the K702. They are not a high z headphone, I successfully drove a K701, 702 and the 712 Quincy Jones or not on an E5 and the E11 portable amps and it was easily driven.


----------



## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





defqon said:


> I still don't see how this is possible and why a few of you are saying you had trouble driving those mentioned headphones,especially the K702. They are not a high z headphone, I successfully drove a K701, 702 and the 712 Quincy Jones or not on an E5 and the E11 portable amps and it was easily driven.


 
  Honestly I find that even a fiio e9 has issues driving the fostex and k702s to their potential.


----------



## techboy

Because some people feel volume is everything. However, driving properly and getting adequate volume are not related.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





razrr1275 said:


> Honestly I find that even a fiio e9 has issues driving the fostex and k702s to their* potential*.


 
  That's not the point, of course they are going to have troubles driving it to there potential, what I'm saying is that it doesn't require lot's of power, it can be driven by those portable amp's.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Because some people feel volume is everything. However, driving properly and getting adequate volume are not related.


 
  Bingo! Right on the money.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Bingo! Right on the money.


 
  Yeap
   
  And I also suggest that you do NOT run Mad Dog Modded Fostex on these amps... them cans need a SERIOUSLY clean and LEAN amp [which I why I now have a Matrix M with a very Lean Aftermarket OP] that being said I do miss my indeed, q.q she was just posted in a picture *cries* oh well glad he's enjoying it  truth b told the BEST bass I ever had was my Hm 601 Line Out to an E11 to my 2500hm dt 990s, it was just every kinda of Yes


----------



## techboy

Why doesn't mad dogs run on these amps?


----------



## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





defqon said:


> That's not the point, of course they are going to have troubles driving it to there potential, what I'm saying is that it doesn't require lot's of power, it can be driven by those portable amp's.


 
  Looks like we have different definitions of requiring lots of power. For me requiring lots of power means requiring lots of power to sound good. 
   
  As far as why modded fostex don't work well for these amps it's that the low end loses definition and to me it just sounds extremely slow and syrupy in a bad way.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





razrr1275 said:


> Looks like we have different definitions of requiring lots of power. For me requiring lots of power means requiring lots of power to sound good.
> 
> As far as why modded fostex don't work well for these amps it's that the low end loses definition and to me it just sounds extremely slow and syrupy in a bad way.


 
  Exactly


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





razrr1275 said:


> Looks like we have different definitions of requiring lots of power. For me requiring lots of power means requiring lots of power to sound good.
> 
> As far as why modded fostex don't work well for these amps it's that the low end loses definition and to me it just sounds extremely slow and syrupy in a bad way.


 
  Ok let me teach you a few things.
   
  Power/current + headphone does not equal driving a headphone to it's potential, it can apply to some headphones mostly orthos but not dynamics. Synergy between the amp and the headphone is just as important as pumping lot's of power into the transducers reaching it's potential, if you haven't realised, alot of mid/high end headphones sound great on end game high end amp's, most of these amp's don't even provide a lot of power on paper (specs), it's the synergy that sounds great.
   
  Project86's old review on the Matrix M Stage + HD800 pairing was so impressive, that the sound from the synergy from the two, the sound quality was on par with this Luxman amp costing almost 10x more than the Matrix M Stage which is a modified circuit off the Lehmann Black Cube.
   
  The reason the T50RP don't sound great out of the Bravo amp is because the T50RP is not suited for tube amp's such as the Bravo, you might have a class A hybrid with a solid state front end and sound great. Tube rolling on the Bravo/Sunrise/Indeed/Muse or any other amp using the same base circuit design gains the most benefit.


----------



## brother love

defqon said:


> ...Synergy between the amp and the headphone is just as important as pumping lot's of power into the transducers reaching it's potential, if you haven't realised, alot of mid/high end headphones sound great on end game high end amp's, most of these amp's don't even provide a lot of power on paper (specs), it's the synergy that sounds great."




I agree with you 100% on system synergy whether it is a headphone system or a main system.  It is a grossly overlooked factor when mating components.



defqon said:


> The reason the T50RP don't sound great out of the Bravo amp is because the T50RP is not suited for tube amp's such as the Bravo, you might have a class A hybrid with a solid state front end and sound great. Tube rolling on the Bravo/Sunrise/Indeed/Muse or any other amp using the same base circuit design gains the most benefit.




Could you elaborate on this a bit?  I am seriously looking at the Project Sunrise II amp (particularly since I can utilize an existing 6v tube collection that I already have for my Grant Fidelity TD-11).  I currently use the TD-11 "tube out" for main system amp & speakers.  I was going to use the tube-less "line out" for a headphone amp like those mentioned.

The headphones that I was considering (in order of preference) were the Mad Dog Fostex T50RP, Beyerdynamic DT880, Sennheiser HD600, HiFiMan HE-400, & AKG K-701.


----------



## DefQon

Before I give out recommendations what is your budget?


----------



## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Ok let me teach you a few things.
> 
> Power/current + headphone does not equal driving a headphone to it's potential, it can apply to some headphones mostly orthos but not dynamics. Synergy between the amp and the headphone is just as important as pumping lot's of power into the transducers reaching it's potential, if you haven't realised, alot of mid/high end headphones sound great on end game high end amp's, most of these amp's don't even provide a lot of power on paper (specs), it's the synergy that sounds great.
> 
> ...


 
  I'm well aware that synergy is important. In the case of the fostex and k702s current is pretty critical though to making things sound good. 
   
  The bravo v2 and garage1217 are both class a hybrid offerings and trust me tube rolling didn't make the fostex or k702s sound good. I have a bunch of different tubes that I tried. It's that it doesn't deliver enough current.
  Quote: 





brother love said:


> I agree with you 100% on system synergy whether it is a headphone system or a main system.  It is a grossly overlooked factor when mating components.
> Could you elaborate on this a bit?  I am seriously looking at the Project Sunrise II amp (particularly since I can utilize an existing 6v tube collection that I already have for my Grant Fidelity TD-11).  I currently use the TD-11 "tube out" for main system amp & speakers.  I was going to use the tube-less "line out" for a headphone amp like those mentioned.
> 
> The headphones that I was considering (in order of preference) were the Mad Dog Fostex T50RP, Beyerdynamic DT880, Sennheiser HD600, HiFiMan HE-400, & AKG K-701.


 
  I'd recommend one of the garage1217 offerings. If you want to go to the beyers or senns immediately I'd suggest the Ember if its within budget as its designed to have enough power for all sorts of headphones. If you plan for going for the low impedance cans the Sunrise II will do fine but it struggles a bit with high impedance headphones.


----------



## brother love

$850 for cans & amp. Portability not required.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





brother love said:


> $850 for cans & amp. Portability not required.


 
  Wow, then get the heck off this thread xD
   
  You could Easily get a Little Dot MK IV and something like the Dt 880 600 ohm, the Ath W1000x, or the SennHesier HD 600 or 650. I'd recommend going spilt down the middle. $425 for cans $425 for an amp. And for $425 there are a lot of really nice options out there depending on what you want!


----------



## brother love

Well, I am exploring all options. If I can get an able-bodied tube headamp that has the same 6v tubes that I have for my DAC, then I have more sheckles for a better set of headphones, some better cables, etc..


----------



## Judge Buff

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Ok where to start as there seem's to be a lot of miss-information here.....
> 
> 
> The Sunrise, Bravo, Indeed are all based on the same class a 12AU7 circuit with the original Sunrise a bit modified taking into account of no limitations and skimping out on quality with price ratio.
> ...


 
  This person knows whereof he speaks... The beauty of these Indeeds and Bravos* IS* that they cost pocket change and are *EASY* to mod! Little changes pay big dividends in sound quality. If I paid $200+ for a Sunrise Whatever, after my wife beat me half to death for spending $200+, I'd still look for mods to make on it. My G2 FrankenAmp sounds amazing. I paid $110 (I think) for two of them without tubes and only one PS. I still haven't modded one of them and I also have a G3 to mod. My FrankenAmp sounds better to my old ears than the stock G3 does. I'm saving the G3 mod for a cold weather project to do in between football games this fall/winter. Start cheaply, buy great replacement parts, practice your solder skills, then _tinker..._


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





razrr1275 said:


> I'm well aware that synergy is important. In the case of the fostex and k702s current is pretty critical though to making things sound good.
> 
> The bravo v2 and garage1217 are both class a hybrid offerings and trust me tube rolling didn't make the fostex or k702s sound good. I have a bunch of different tubes that I tried. It's that it doesn't deliver enough current.
> I'd recommend one of the garage1217 offerings. If you want to go to the beyers or senns immediately I'd suggest the Ember if its within budget as its designed to have enough power for all sorts of headphones. If you plan for going for the low impedance cans the Sunrise II will do fine but it struggles a bit with high impedance headphones.


 
  Then it's not a matter of lot's of power requirement or not, you just need a better overall amp than either the Sunrise or the Bravo/Indeed. In relation to a FR graph and the way impedence behaves, the K/Q70X doesn't need a lot of current and stays steady at the nominal rated z it is at. As I said, it's not really current i.e power that makes things sound good it's synergy.
   
  Quote: 





brother love said:


> $850 for cans & amp. Portability not required.


 
  If you're driving the HD600's or high z headphone, I'd look no further than a Bottlehead Crack which punches above it's price/sound performance ratio by a lot.
   
  I'd look into a the Schiit line of amp's with that sort of budget, $350-400 should leave you plenty of left over $$ to get yourself a nice headphone with spare change.
  Quote: 





mshenay said:


> You could Easily get a Little Dot MK IV and something like the Dt 880 600 ohm, the Ath W1000x, or the SennHesier HD 600 or 650. I'd recommend going spilt down the middle. $425 for cans $425 for an amp. And for $425 there are a lot of really nice options out there depending on what you want!


 
  +1. Also a good recommendation.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





judge buff said:


> This person knows whereof he speaks... The beauty of these Indeeds and Bravos* IS* that they cost pocket change and are *EASY* to mod! Little changes pay big dividends in sound quality. If I paid $200+ for a Sunrise Whatever, after my wife beat me half to death for spending $200+, I'd still look for mods to make on it. My G2 FrankenAmp sounds amazing. I paid $110 (I think) for two of them without tubes and only one PS. I still haven't modded one of them and I also have a G3 to mod. My FrankenAmp sounds better to my old ears than the stock G3 does. I'm saving the G3 mod for a cold weather project to do in between football games this fall/winter. Start cheaply, buy great replacement parts, practice your solder skills, then _tinker..._


 
  LISTEN TO THIS MAN, he is the Modded Hybrid Tube PROPHET xD, really he is :O
   
  But yea that's the exact point of those amps! Sadly I can't mod worth a crap [that might be changing soon] but the low low price and YAY TUBE swapping are a greatin introduction to the world of Tube amps! [how mny times have we said this now lawl] 
   
  And +1 as well for the Bottle Crack and Bit Frost recommendations.
   
  Thankfully I enjoy my Matrix M Stage [LME49990 opAmp] enough to not need another Solid State amp.


----------



## DefQon

I never quite understood your signature Mshenay lol.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> I never quite understood your signature Mshenay lol.


 
  it's a joke related to an anime, you'd have to had seen the image to get it


----------



## UmustBKidn

Yeah. You know, it gets old listening to people post in the Bravo thread all about better this, better that. Truly. The whole point of buying a Bravo is, you're basically trying to go cheap for some reason, and you want bang for the buck. For $70 on Amazon, or maybe a bit less on Ebay (if you can outbid the resellers), *IMO there is no better amp*. And if there is a better amp, I hope someone throws an empty beer bottle at me and sends me a link.
   
  (Please don't tell me Little Bears are better. No.)
   
  To the person with $850 bucks to spend: get yourself a Bottlehead Crack and some HD650's, and be done with it.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> Yeah. You know, it gets old listening to people post in the Bravo thread all about better this, better that. Truly. The whole point of buying a Bravo is, you're basically trying to go cheap for some reason, and you want bang for the buck. For $70 on Amazon, or maybe a bit less on Ebay (if you can outbid the resellers), *IMO there is no better amp*. And if there is a better amp, I hope someone throws an empty beer bottle at me and sends me a link.
> 
> (Please don't tell me Little Bears are better. No.)
> 
> To the person with $850 bucks to spend: get yourself a Bottlehead Crack and some HD650's, and be done with it.


 
  The crack I can agree with, the HD 650 depends on your tastes...


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> The crack I can agree with, the HD 650 depends on your tastes...


 
   
  Agreed. I was just adding up numbers. Personally, I'm going to give my Beyer dt770's a crack at a crack (does that sound funny?) before I swap them out for a pair of HD6x0's.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> Agreed. I was just adding up numbers. Personally, I'm going to give my Beyer dt770's a crack at a crack (does that sound funny?) before I swap them out for a pair of HD6x0's.


 
  U know the Open Byer cans are better than the closed ones, b4 u sell ur Closed 770 u ought to at least try the 880


----------



## brother love

Sorry folks. I didn't mean to derail the thread. I really appreciate everyones recomendations.

Now as it relates to the Bravo V1 deluxe, or a tube hybrid like the Project Sunrise II, what are some higher quality headphones that have a good synergy with these type headamps? Again, because they have 6v tubes like my Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11, I would have a nice tube collection to take advantage of for rolling into these 2 amps.


----------



## SanDIegoDog

I am kinda new to the desktop high-fi for lack of better words. I have been running some Audio Engine A5+ desktop speakers, Audioengine D1 DAC/Amp and just received the Bravo V2. I also purchased a Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7 Tube to "Roll In." My question is this: how should I set up the Bravo with the DI? Can I run the D1 as the preamp, then go from my headphone outputs on the D1 to the Bravo's input, then run RCAs to my A5s and headphones?  It seems to work and sound good, but after reading the levels of information some of you posses I figured I better look for some expert advice/guidance on this matter. Any help/input is greatly appreciated.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> U know the Open Byer cans are better than the closed ones, b4 u sell ur Closed 770 u ought to at least try the 880


 
   
  Oh I am sure they are. I bought the beyer DT770's because they were closed, highly rated, and in my price range 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 They are the setup I use for my "home away from home" ... during the week I commute a long ways and rent a room in someone else's house. When I come home, it is the dead of night usually, and I dare not wake the folks sleeping elsewhere in the house. So, closed cans are what I need if I want to crank anything up at night, listen to movies, etc.
   
  On the weekend, I have my own place elsewhere, so I can crank it up until the neighbors complain. Since they usually play Karaoke until 2am, and I can hear it on the other side of the house next door, through a window facing the other way, I'm thinking I won't have any complaints from them lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I have my eyes on the HD650/Bottlehead Crack combo for my weekend home ... where I can crank up whatever. That much of that setup is determined. What I haven't decided yet, is what I will use for a DAC. So far the Modi has proven to be an admirable DAC for my home away from home. I may buy another one, because I am just not sure if the Bifrost will be that much of an improvement, given my old ears and music collection (neither of which really justify the expense).
   
  I am also on the verge of buying another Bravo V2 just to putz around with. With all this talk of modding, I have become curious. Especially since Judge Buff seems to be back, and can offer advice when I gank something lol.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





brother love said:


> Sorry folks. I didn't mean to derail the thread. I really appreciate everyones recomendations.
> 
> Now as it relates to the Bravo V1 deluxe, or a tube hybrid like the Project Sunrise II, what are some higher quality headphones that have a good synergy with these type headamps? Again, because they have 6v tubes like my Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11, I would have a nice tube collection to take advantage of for rolling into these 2 amps.


 
   
  I have personally had great success with Sony MDR 7506 cans, with the beyer earpad mod, on my Bravo V2. These are roughly $85 + $22 for the new earpads. I have to use closed back cans for a reason on my Bravo (used at work). So I can't recommend any good open back cans. I like em a lot, especially for this price range


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





sandiegodog said:


> I am kinda new to the desktop high-fi for lack of better words. I have been running some Audio Engine A5+ desktop speakers, Audioengine D1 DAC/Amp and just received the Bravo V2. I also purchased a Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7 Tube to "Roll In." My question is this: how should I set up the Bravo with the DI? Can I run the D1 as the preamp, then go from my headphone outputs on the D1 to the Bravo's input, then run RCAs to my A5s and headphones?  It seems to work and sound good, but after reading the levels of information some of you posses I figured I better look for some expert advice/guidance on this matter. Any help/input is greatly appreciated.


 
   
  Um, yes and no. Don't use the headphone jack on the D1 to run the Bravo. That's just a bad idea, because you'd be running an amplified signal into another amplifier. There's not a lot of point in owning all that cool gear and not using it properly.
   
  You now own two output devices, both of which need the input from one DAC. So if you want to hook both up, you need a switch. I did a quick check on Parts Express and found this one. You'll need something like that to switch the output of your DAC to the input of either your speakers or headphones (there may be better options, this example is for illustration only). Others may have better recommendations.
   
  Since you're using desktop speakers, I presume your computer is your audio source. Given these assumptions, this is what I would do, just to get the Bravo running:
   

 Connect a USB cable from your computer to the D1's USB connector on the back panel. In a pinch, you can probably borrow the USB cable from your printer.
 Connect a stereo RCA cable from the D1's RCA outputs, to the Bravo's RCA inputs. Red to red, white to white.
 Connect your headphone to the Bravo's headphone jack. Turn the volume down before turning the switches on.
 In your computer, set the D1 DAC as your audio device. This is usually under Control Panel -> Sound. Assuming you've made the above connections, there will be two: one for your computer, and one for the DAC. If you use the switch setup I discuss below, just leave this set to your D1 DAC.
 When using the D1 audio device, the computer's volume control should be set to maximum. Control the volume with the Bravo. It should return to the previous setting when you switch back to the computer's audio.
   
  Ok. Now, turn everything on, and give the tube 10-15 sec to warm up. Then turn the volume up slowly. You won't need to give it much of a turn.
   
  Now, if you want to use a switch, simply insert the switch in between the DAC and the Bravo and Audioengine speakers. You'll need a total of 3 sets of RCA cables to do that.
   
  Computer -> USB cable -> D1 DAC -> RCA cable to switch -> Switch -> one set of outputs to Bravo, one set to Audioengine speakers.
   
  I hope that's clear, but if you need a picture, reply and I'll attempt to scrawl something useful. If you have any kind of sound card on your computer with RCA outputs, then you can also opt to use that to run either the Bravo or the speakers. I am assuming that you are not using a sound card. If you are, then you have more choices and it gets more confusing lol. In this case, you might choose to run say, the speakers with the sound card. So you would not need an external switch. To choose between headphones or speakers, you'd select the desired output device in the Control Panel -> Sound settings.
   
  When you want to swap tubes, turn the DAC and Bravo off, and let it cool down a bit. The blue LED will glow for a while. The tube in mine never gets hot, but I like to let it cool for a couple minutes. I also use a small fan to keep my Bravo cool. I found a very nice Thermaltake USB model that sits about 6 inches away from mine at work. I use a USB power supply to run it.
   
  PS: My cable recommendations are for illustration only. Some folks get very choosy about cables. There's cheap, and there's expensive, but with a cheap setup I don't see the point going nuts with cables. Auvio from Radio Shack is probably fine, as would be Mediabridge or Monoprice cables from Amazon (though I would avoid the Monoprice RCA cables, they are too damn tight).


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> Um, yes and no. Don't use the headphone jack on the D1 to run the Bravo. That's just a bad idea, because you'd be running an amplified signal into another amplifier. There's not a lot of point in owning all that cool gear and not using it properly.
> 
> You now own two output devices, both of which need the input from one DAC. So if you want to hook both up, you need a switch. I did a quick check on Parts Express and found this one. You'll need something like that to switch the output of your DAC to the input of either your speakers or headphones (there may be better options, this example is for illustration only). Others may have better recommendations.
> 
> ...


 
  Man, what I really need is 1 Input three output... that seems to be the oppisite. I want to hook my Dac up to something that can regulate which Amp get's the Input from the Dac


----------



## techboy

Just buy a belkin rockstar splitter


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Just buy a belkin rockstar splitter


 
  ... dude we are dealing with RCA here not 3.5mm. I use Coaxial interconnectors and that won't work


----------



## techboy

3.5mm to rca connectors are easily available on ebay,


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





techboy said:


> 3.5mm to rca connectors are easily available on ebay,


 
  ... I don't want 3.5mm to rca interconnectors. I want Coaxial RCA to banna jack RCA in lol, your missing the point. I guess it's just my AudioPhile Hitch, I don't like using 3.5mm it just looks kinda cheesy. I grew up with my Dad having like 40 feet of RCA stretched out over our Den lol, and he had his SACD Player our DVD Player hooked up to the PreAmp Then hooked up to something elese, then hooked up to the speakers. So I want a simmilar set up but with a Digital Source out of my Dac hooked up to my multiple amps <3
   
  Creating an almost vintage through back to his old system but with new tech 
   
  Also Open Back headphones are usually more accurate and natrual than closed back right, assuming that the open backs don't suffer from the coloration of resonnace


----------



## geetarman49

*Mshenay*  - the coleman ls3 should do the trick for you.
http://www.colemanaudio.com/swtchr.htm
  
oops, ixnay ... just saw that this uses 1/4" trs, vice rca ... still looking ...
   
   
  forget what i just posted ... the original suggestion (rolls ss32) by *UmustBKidn  *should work for you.
   
  1 rca in - 3 selectable rca out.
   
  in your case, _common_ is the input and you have a choice of outputs _a, b, or c_.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





geetarman49 said:


> *Mshenay*  - the coleman ls3 should do the trick for you.
> http://www.colemanaudio.com/swtchr.htm
> 
> oops, ixnay ... just saw that this uses 1/4" trs, vice rca ... still looking ...
> ...


 
  So it is reversable, that's what I was hoping


----------



## geetarman49

yes, it is bi-directional and you also have the advantage of using either rca or 3.5mm trs for any of the input/output(s).


----------



## SanDIegoDog

Thank you very much. That is a really well-thought out response that I was looking for. Very helpful and informative. Cheers!


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> So it is reversable, that's what I was hoping


 
   
  Near as I can tell, yes. No power = nothing to melt if you turn the electrons around and run them the other direction 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Enterprising folks might even suggest making your own switch. Four pairs of gold plated RCA jacks, a box, a switch, some wire, a soldering gun, some good solder, a drill and an hour or so and you're all set. Doubt you'd save much money, but it might be fun and a boost to your self esteem


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Man, what I really need is 1 Input three output... that seems to be the oppisite. I want to hook my Dac up to something that can regulate which Amp get's the Input from the Dac


 
  You mean a multi input/output passive preamp?


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





umustbkidn said:


> Near as I can tell, yes. No power = nothing to melt if you turn the electrons around and run them the other direction
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  well I suck with a soddering gun, that might change but not for a while
   
  but hopefully it will work if I reverse it! 
   
  Quote: 





defqon said:


> You mean a multi input/output passive preamp?


 
  no not an amp of any kind


----------



## DefQon

A passive preamp is not an amp of any kind, it allows you to select multiple different input sources to different output sources, it doesn't add anything to the sound nor does it require power. It is essentially a switch.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> A passive preamp is not an amp of any kind, it allows you to select multiple different input sources to different output sources, it doesn't add anything to the sound nor does it require power. It is essentially a switch.


 
  YAY knowledge, so yes that is what I need


----------



## DefQon

I need one two now that we are on the topic.


----------



## UmustBKidn

I've just put up a review and comparison of the Schiit Magni, Bravo V2, Schiit Modi, and Pure i-20. Enjoy!


----------



## jaywillin

while i've got the little dot I+ opened up, to change to ef95 setting, got the g3 with the sylvania 12au7 gold lettering, pins pulling some head time, cleansing the pallet so to speak


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





jaywillin said:


> while i've got the little dot I+ opened up, to change to ef95 setting, got the g3 with the sylvania 12au7 gold lettering, pins pulling some head time, cleansing the pallet so to speak


 
  Omg Jay, I'm getting a little dot 1+ as well xD that's pretty funny huh lol


----------



## jaywillin

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Omg Jay, I'm getting a little dot 1+ as well xD that's pretty funny huh lol


 

 i love mine !! its build is a little more substantial than the bravo/indeed, but then it cost a little more, i kinda like having both amps
  two different tube flavors, and with the tube rolling, even more


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





jaywillin said:


> i love mine !! its build is a little more substantial than the bravo/indeed, but then it cost a little more, i kinda like having both amps
> two different tube flavors, and with the tube rolling, even more


 
  Indeed, my LD 1+ is coming with 4 different sets of tubes, that being said it's worth the price I am paying for it [a little under double what it costs new] still worth it for the extra tubes as that will make it an idenfinate keeper! Plus it has A LOT of current, which means it can do a good job driving something like a Mad Dog. not to mention it's coming with I think its a GE JN something tube, which apprently is like an anti tube xD It thins out heavy mids and brings a wonderful treble quality!


----------



## Helltech

So I used brand new V3 for like 30 minutes worked like a charm, now its acting funny and the light went out on it. Sound just crackles and nothing comes through. Seems like an overheating/power issue.


----------



## crunchsound

hi there, 
   
  i bought a V3 a couple of months ago and i was quite satisfied. then one day i wanted replace the 3 big caps and after the job was done i had problems with stereo. it just gave me mono signals. so, then i replaced again all caps with the original ones but still the same. anyone please has a clue what could be wrong now ? maybe defect rca connections ? or something else ? 
   
  thanks
  patrick


----------



## HOWIE13

I have no trouble driving the HD600, HD650, AKG K701 and DT880 (250Ohm) with an unmodified BRAVO V3. Rarely is the Vol knob beyond the 9'clock point and I like my music loud. Of course, if you use the passive equaliser filters the volume will drop off, but this is readily compensated for by increasing the volume.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Quote: 





crunchsound said:


> hi there,
> 
> i bought a V3 a couple of months ago and i was quite satisfied. then one day i wanted replace the 3 big caps and after the job was done i had problems with stereo. it just gave me mono signals. so, then i replaced again all caps with the original ones but still the same. anyone please has a clue what could be wrong now ? maybe defect rca connections ? or something else ?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ideas?
   

 The heat used to solder/unsolder may have affected something nearby .. e.g. damaged another component.
 You may have splattered solder over a connection somewhere.
 You may have a cold solder joint. People who only occasionally use a soldering iron may inadvertently create one of these.
   
  First bullet: fix by substituting nearby components until it works.
  Second: Use a magnifying glass and make sure that the traces are clean and no extra solder or flux exists.
  Third: Resolder the connections.


----------



## PanpandaChan

So my V2 has been sitting in a drawer for a few months now... I stopped using it because I got tired of unplugging/replugging (due to fears of breaking the power button) and being worried about leaving it on overnight by accident.

I also have a Schiit Magni on the way thanks to my girlfriend.

What should I do with the V2? lol
Sell it? Compare it to Magni? Play with other tubes? (its still on the stock tube)

Anyone interested in buying it? Its dusty but otherwise mint lol.


----------



## UmustBKidn

panpandachan said:


> So my V2 has been sitting in a drawer for a few months now... I stopped using it because I got tired of unplugging/replugging (due to fears of breaking the power button) and being worried about leaving it on overnight by accident.
> 
> I also have a Schiit Magni on the way thanks to my girlfriend.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, if I were you, I would compare it to the Magni and see how both pair with your cans. I own both, and quite honestly, I like both, but with different cans.
  
 And, please do yourself a favor and get rid of that stock tube. It really is garbage. Buy any kind of old American made tube from eBay, and you will hear a remarkable difference. As I write this, I'm listening to a Modi driving a V2 with a Mullard ECC82 tube in it. Very nice. At work, I use a Hewlett Packard 5963 tube with long black plates, and a V2 driven by the line-out cord from an iPod. I keep rotating through a selection of old American 12AU7's and 5963's on that setup, and I keep coming back to that HP tube. I also have a Tung-Sol 5963 tube that sounds quite good.
  
 Some of my notes on tube rolling a V2 can be found here. My comparison of a Bravo V2 against a Magni (with 2 different DAC's) can be found here.
  
 I actually own two V2's now. When time permits I am going to mod one of them and do a comparison against the stock V2.


----------



## PanpandaChan

umustbkidn said:


> Well, if I were you, I would compare it to the Magni and see how both pair with your cans. I own both, and quite honestly, I like both, but with different cans.
> 
> And, please do yourself a favor and get rid of that stock tube. It really is garbage. Buy any kind of old American made tube from eBay, and you will hear a remarkable difference. As I write this, I'm listening to a Modi driving a V2 with a Mullard ECC82 tube in it. Very nice. At work, I use a Hewlett Packard 5963 tube with long black plates, and a V2 driven by the line-out cord from an iPod. I keep rotating through a selection of old American 12AU7's and 5963's on that setup, and I keep coming back to that HP tube. I also have a Tung-Sol 5963 tube that sounds quite good.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, I may actually just keep them both, although one person so far has expressed interest in buying the amp.
  
 I've always thought about trying different tubes, but the uncertainty seems so great, and once I go too far with tubes, then the Bravo's budget price no longer seems worth it :\
 I'll look into it some more though. If it turns out no one wants to buy my Bravo, I might just grab another tube for it and give it another try.


----------



## UmustBKidn

panpandachan said:


> Thanks, I may actually just keep them both, although one person so far has expressed interest in buying the amp.
> 
> I've always thought about trying different tubes, but the uncertainty seems so great, and once I go too far with tubes, then the Bravo's budget price no longer seems worth it :\
> I'll look into it some more though. If it turns out no one wants to buy my Bravo, I might just grab another tube for it and give it another try.


 
  
 You really have nothing to lose at this point. I've become something of a 12AU7 collector (and some of its variants), and I can assure you that you can change the character of the sound quite readily just by swapping tubes. It is kind of amazing if you've never tried it before. I honestly didn't believe it until I tried it for myself, and I'm now a believer.
  
 You know, I like to think of myself as a frugal person. And then I went and started buying tubes.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I realized that I needed to slow down when I had accumulated about 20 tubes lol. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had some rather tragic stuff going on with my family this last summer, and I really needed a distraction from the grief. So this kind of became my distraction for the negative crap going on. Fortunately, it really isn't too expensive, if you research a bit.
  
 I have purchased old American NOS tubes for as little as $2.50 on eBay. Heck, the shipping sometimes costs more than the tubes I buy lol. Just search for 12AU7 (or it's variants) and put in a bid on any old American tube. Some fellow was selling 5963 (a 12AU7 variant that is a drop-in substitute) tubes for $2.50 each in bulk a couple months back, so I grabbed a half dozen of them. That purchase was under $20 including shipping. You don't need to buy Mullards or Telefunkens to get better sound.
  
 I will say though that there are a lot of sellers on eBay who are driving up the prices of Mullards and Telefunkens to the point where it has become ridiculous. I also think some people react poorly to the whole concept of auctions, and get sucked into the drama of bidding wars. These folks wait until the last 30 seconds of an auction, and bid up the price to 3 times what something is worth. Others put up tubes with fixed prices that are way above what they are worth, and some folks buy them anyway (probably because they see "Mullard" and go nuts). The old adage about a fool and his money comes to mind.
  
 Bravo V2's can be had on eBay for about $50-55 bucks including shipping, or on Amazon for $69 bucks. So their resale value isn't going to be real high.
  
 I'm also saying this because I do have a Magni (and a Modi), and have spent some time doing direct comparisons of the sound of both amps. Depending on the cans you are using, you might regret getting rid of that Bravo amp prematurely. The Magni is a nice amp, but it's solid state, and the Bravo is a tube hybrid. Even a hybrid tube amp produces some of the warm sound that tube amps are famous for. Some folks prefer tube sound over solid state, and some like it the other way around. I don't know your taste preferences, but I think you'd be better off doing your own little comparison once the Magni arrives, to see which sounds better on your setup.


----------



## blazingazn

My Bravo V2's RED LED does not go on.
  
 The amp also sounds really weird now. Muted like.
  
 What is wrong and what should I do?


----------



## UmustBKidn

blazingazn said:


> My Bravo V2's RED LED does not go on.
> 
> The amp also sounds really weird now. Muted like.
> 
> What is wrong and what should I do?


 
  
 Hmm. This has not happened to me. Have you tried swapping another tube? Use a cheap one, just to test.
  
 How comfortable are you with repairing electronic devices? If you think you can handle it, try posting your question here:
  
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/5297/bravo-12au7-mods-appreciation-thread


----------



## White Lotus

So I'm tempted to get a V3 to use as an output stage for my Aune T1 (uses the same tube, and can upgrade them later).
  
 I've been told that these bravo amps suffer from crackling/noise floor/quality control issues.
  
 Can any of you owners clear this up for me? 
  
 Thanks!
  
 (I know the answer probably lies in this thread, but it's 145 pages long..)


----------



## HOWIE13

I have had two V3's for a few months now. I use them regularly, rolling tubes. I have never had a problem from them. Whenever there is occasional unwanted noise/distortion it's due to me not inserting the tube properly or the pins needing a clean up.


----------



## blazingazn

umustbkidn said:


> Hmm. This has not happened to me. Have you tried swapping another tube? Use a cheap one, just to test.
> 
> How comfortable are you with repairing electronic devices? If you think you can handle it, try posting your question here:
> 
> http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/5297/bravo-12au7-mods-appreciation-thread


 
  
 I tube swap often. It's the same across the board.
  
 I heard that Red LED is a weak link and may need to be replaced? 
 Any opinions?
  
 I'm out of that terribly short 6 month warranty period


----------



## UmustBKidn

white lotus said:


> So I'm tempted to get a V3 to use as an output stage for my Aune T1 (uses the same tube, and can upgrade them later).
> 
> I've been told that these bravo amps suffer from crackling/noise floor/quality control issues.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The "search this thread" feature (near the top) comes in handy.
  
 I remember reading somewhere that the V3's had some sort of issue with the equalizer sliders being noisy. The issue didn't exist with the other models (that don't have those sliders). I had originally wanted a V3, but after reading some negative comments, decided on a V2 instead. The usual arguments against equalization being against the Audiophile Religion apply. I can't imagine how effective a 3-band equalizer could be anyhow.
  
 I now own two of the V2's. I kind of wish I'd known about the Schiit Vali before buying the second one, but that's life. On the other hand, the Vali's aren't built for tube rolling. After owning this amp, I can't imagine myself ever buying a tube amp (hybrid or otherwise) that I couldn't replace the tube(s) on.
  
 The V1's use a 6922 tube, that seems awfully expensive to replace. Tube rolling would be way too expensive. So the V2 was my choice.
  
 Lots of folks on this thread have them (as well as the similar Indeed G3), and lots of those folks are rather passionate about their Bravo's (especially after performing the modifications to them). Call me silly, but I've done some extensive tube rolling with this amp (in unmodified form). I'm planning on modifying one of my V2's soon, and I plan on doing a comparison of the two amps once I'm done. I am really sold on tube-type amplifiers, mainly because of the positive experience I've had so far with my Bravo amps.


----------



## UmustBKidn

blazingazn said:


> I tube swap often. It's the same across the board.
> 
> I heard that Red LED is a weak link and may need to be replaced?
> Any opinions?
> ...


 
  
 I don't think the LED is the problem. I would sooner believe there is something it's hooked up to, that's going bad. However, I wouldn't know what to suggest, beyond exploring the boards I linked above. I would bet that if you replaced the LED, it would still glow dimly. But I could be wrong.
  
 I will say that I kind of knew when I bought my Bravo's that I was taking a risk. Something this inexpensive that's sold via eBay and made in China isn't going to be an item with great customer service. Even if it does take a dump in the warranty period, you're going to spend $20 bucks for shipping each direction. If it took a dump outside the warranty period, I'd try to fix it or ask advice online, and if that didn't work, I'd throw it away.
  
 The Bravo amps are someone's idea of commercializing a common DIY design that's existed for years. Do some searching and you will see this is true. They are great if you're not an electrical engineer and don't want to attempt building one yourself. But there are issues with the construction and the design (hence the plethora of mods for the amp and tons of folks discussing the design issues). They are cheap, and they are great, assuming you have one that works.
  
 If great customer service is something you want, buy a Schiit Magni or Vali. Schiit has some of the best customer service on the planet, not to mention some of the best audio gear. And soon you can spend $120 and buy a hybrid tube/ss amp from them (the Vali should be available soon). Or spend $99 on a Magni (I have one of those too, and honestly it rocks too). My Schiit gear is built like a tank. I drive one of my V2's with a Schiit Modi. Honestly, I know my kids will inherit my Schiit gear. The Bravo's, probably not.
  
 If you want to step up from the Bravo's, the next step would be either a Schiit Valhalla or a Bottlehead Crack. One of those will be my next amp.


----------



## dwayniac

I received my Ocean in the mail today and right off the bat,I think the stock tube is lean on bass. It's not a deal breaker but I would only use my SR80i with the stock tube. Never the less,I do have three NOS tubes coming,Amperex,Philips and RCA,to try different sound signatures.


----------



## richard51

I am very anxious to read your impression.. i want to buy the ocean .....If others have this amp with the hifiman he 400 i am curious to know  if the synergy is good between them ......


----------



## UmustBKidn

dwayniac said:


> I received my Ocean in the mail today and right off the bat,I think the stock tube is lean on bass. It's not a deal breaker but I would only use my SR80i with the stock tube. Never the less,I do have three NOS tubes coming,Amperex,Philips and RCA,to try different sound signatures.


 
  
 The stock tube sucks. Period. As many have observed, almost any old American tube will be an improvement.
  
 I recently picked up an old Raytheon long black plate tube, and it has a lovely crunchy sound on my metal music, and isn't too shrill even using my Pure i-20 DAC. Yes, I've put my i-20 back in line at work. I have decided to futz with tubes until I find some that tone down the brightness. Mullards do a nice job of that, but I am just not ready to leave an expensive tube at work.
  
 I am slowly working through my selection of old American tubes again. So far, a Tung-Sol 5963, the Raytheon long black plate 12AU7, and an HP long black plate 12AU7 tube are my top choices. I have some oddball tubes with weird names that also sound good, often these are 5963 tubes that people overlook.
  
 Keep your eyes open for the alternate tube types (5963, 5814, 6189, seem to be the most common) on eBay. People put such an importance on the 12AU7 and ECC82 types, that the price of those is now way too high (and the others are a bargain). As I mentioned in another thread, I've purchased 5963 tubes for as little as $2.50 each, which is an insane bargain. I play them all the time in my Bravo's with no issues, and they sound just as good as the more familiar types.


----------



## UmustBKidn

richard51 said:


> I am very anxious to read your impression.. i want to buy the ocean .....If others have this amp with the hifiman he 400 i am curious to know  if the synergy is good between them ......


 
  
 The Ocean is a V2 with a fancier case. Unless you've just got to have that case, skip the Ocean and get a V2, and spend the extra money on tubes


----------



## dwayniac

umustbkidn said:


> The stock tube sucks. Period. As many have observed, almost any old American tube will be an improvement.
> 
> I recently picked up an old Raytheon long black plate tube, and it has a lovely crunchy sound on my metal music, and isn't too shrill even using my Pure i-20 DAC. Yes, I've put my i-20 back in line at work. I have decided to futz with tubes until I find some that tone down the brightness. Mullards do a nice job of that, but I am just not ready to leave an expensive tube at work.
> 
> ...


 
 As a matter of fact,I "rolled the dice" and bought a long plate RCA 5963,JAN Philips 6189W and a US made Amperex. My impressions of these tubes will determine if I buy more old tubes.


----------



## dwayniac

I received the Amperex and RCA tubes and are indeed a vast improvement over the stock tube. Of the two I received,I currently prefer the Amperex. I like the warmth it gives my SR80i.


----------



## White Lotus

I'm using an EH6922 in my Aune T1, like a lot of people are. My Bravo V3 (to be used as an output stage when it arrives) also has the same tube. Should I roll both to the Amperex? Much perceivable difference?


----------



## HOWIE13

No noise from my V3 sliders which are very effective with most headphones I use. They are passive filters anyway and when  'off' don't affect the sound in any way that I can detect and using the filters could save the cost of tube rolling.


----------



## UmustBKidn

white lotus said:


> I'm using an EH6922 in my Aune T1, like a lot of people are. My Bravo V3 (to be used as an output stage when it arrives) also has the same tube. Should I roll both to the Amperex? Much perceivable difference?


 
  
 The Electro Harmonix 6922 tubes are new issue, made in Russia tubes. I have not personally listened to that particular tube.
  
 I have listened to the Chinese Shu Guang 12AU7 tubes that come stock in the Bravo V2. I have auditioned the JJ Electronics 12AU7 (brand new, bought it from Amazon), as well as a new issue Electro Harmonix 12AU7 (came with a batch of much better tubes in a lot from ebay). Frankly, they all suck. I consider those purchases a waste of money. I keep all those tubes in a cup labeled "Crappy Tubes". Because I spent good money on them, I haven't quite been able to bring myself to throw them away. Someday I may put them up for auction on ebay. Maybe someone else will need convincing, and be willing to give me a few bucks for them, LOL.
  
 Many others besides myself, have stated that the brand new Chinese and Russian tubes simply are horrible, compared to any of the old* (1970's and prior) tubes (the older, the better). The Amperex tubes are very nice, but as anyone who's done any tube rolling will tell you, I can't guarantee what sounds good to you. There are simply too many variables. For example, would you be referring to the Amperex made in Holland, or the Amperex Mullards made in Britain? Amperex Bugle Boy tubes are bright, clean tubes, that probably sound best with cans and gear that are naturally dark, and need some uplifting.
  
 The combination of your headphones, your DAC, your amp, and your ears, is unique. What I find good sounding may not be what you like. All I can tell you for sure is, the old vintage tubes will always sound better. Whether you should use an Amperex, a Telefunken, a Mullard, a Raytheon black plate, an RCA clear top, is a matter of opinion. But they'll all sound better than the newly made EH junk.
  
 -------
  
 *Note: the term NOS (new old stock) is overloaded, and frequently used improperly. Most sellers label anything old as NOS, because it brings more money to claim that some 40-50 year old tube has never been used, sitting in a box for years. I suppose a few of them are, but most are not. The more honest sellers will state that they "test NOS", which means that the tube was tested and exhibits readings equivalent to a new tube on a given tester. Regardless of what a seller labels a tube, you want to buy something that's been tested, and tests in the "good" range, preferably with "balanced sides" (meaning in the case of a 12AU7 that both triodes test equally good - or close to it).
  
 On the other hand, bargains can be found with tubes that have not been tested, tubes that test below the "good" range, or tubes that do not have balanced sides. Be careful. There are a few good deals, but a lot more that aren't.
  
 Over this last summer and fall, I have become something of an oddball tube collector. Well ok, I was already an oddball. So I guess I'm becoming a tube collector. I surely don't need this plethora of preamp tubes I'm accumulating. I just like comparing the sound that different tubes produce, with different music. My musical taste is pretty broad (or at least I like to think so), and as it turns out, there are tubes better suited to certain types of music than others. So much so, that one could probably create a catalog of ideal tubes to use for different recordings or genres.
  
 And I'm doing all this with a Bravo V2. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 I went to build a shopping list for modifying my V2 the other night, and much to my dismay have discovered that Mouser is out of IRL510's. I'm wary of buying some from ebay, but unless I want to wait until February, I'm out of luck. I am really, really wanting to mod one of my V2's to see what it sounds like. I may have to wait. So if I don't have to work overtime over the holidays, I may finally buy a Bottlehead Crack and have some fun building my own amp. At which point I'll have to start the whole tube buying exercise with power tubes. Yowza.


----------



## HOWIE13

Is it inevitably the case then that if a company makes a poor 12AU7 then all the other types of tubes it makes will also be poor?
 I only ask this because I think the gold pin EH 6922 sounds quite good in the V3 and even the standard  EH6922 isn't all that bad either.


----------



## White Lotus

Thank you, perfectly written response. 
  
 I have some research to do.


----------



## UmustBKidn

howie13 said:


> Is it inevitably the case then that if a company makes a poor 12AU7 then all the other types of tubes it makes will also be poor?
> I only ask this because I think the gold pin EH 6922 sounds quite good in the V3 and even the standard  EH6922 isn't all that bad either.


 
  
 Well, let me just say that they sound good until you hear something better. I thought the same thing, until I started my adventure with tube rolling.
  
 Things have changed. Once the Transistor and Integrated Circuit were invented, the days of tubes were numbered. So was manufacturing in America.
  
 Tung Sol tubes you find made new today are made by a company in Russia. The original company was in New Jersey (check the wikipedia article). The original American companies are mostly gone (I spent 15 yrs of my life working for one of the last companies to make specialized vacuum tubes in America - but those are not audio tubes). The art of making good tubes has been lost to time and technology, and sadly to economics. Manufacturing in the USA has been farmed out to many other countries that make things more cheaply. And when you make things more cheaply, the quality goes away too. They don't make em like they used to because they simply can't.
  
 When people value low price over quality, this is what you get. It's taken a while, but America got what it asked for. We don't take things that break to repair shops any more ... when something breaks, we throw it away and buy a new one (unless its very expensive). My daughter dropped her laptop about a year ago. It cost $300 bucks to repair, which is about the same cost as a brand new laptop (not quite the same quality, but close). I only repaired it because she really loved it, and it was a $500 dollar model. But it took 3 months to get it fixed right (the morons who repair these things are pretty incompetent). Should have just bought a new one.
  
 So, the question is not whether one poor product made by a manufacturer implies that all the stuff they make is bad. In the case of tubes, none of the manufacturers that really made them well, exist any longer. The folks who made good tubes are long retired or passed away. What they knew was clearly not passed on to others. That, or the technique needed to make tubes well, is just too expensive to reproduce.
  
 Some day, all that we will have left will be the Chinese and Russian crap. Or we'll all just use solid state amps. Some tubes are already darn near impossible to find, and when you can find them, they are horribly expensive. That situation will only get worse, until they're just gone.


----------



## HOWIE13

Thanks for the really informative reply. It's also very depressing reading how the quality of tubes has fallen-though that applies to so many things nowadays. I guess it comes down to finding the best we can enjoy within our budget.


----------



## USAstrat

Iv'e had a V1 for a number of months now (more than the 6 month warranty) but stupidly I didn't realize that was how long it was.  I've only put about 3 hours of listening through it because it makes a ticking sound. 
  
 Sorry if this has already been addressed, but the thread was too long to read through the whole thing. I don't know anything about tube mechanics, so I was hoping some amp experts could help me and either help me workout a solution or let me know if this is a hopeless cause.
  
 Basically, ever since the amp was new it would make a crackling noise, then be followed by a ticking sound.  The ticking sometimes goes away, sometimes doesn't.  And then comes back again.  And it doesn't seem to matter whether the tube is warmed up or not.  I know I should probably put more hours on the tube to break it in, but the ticking is annoying and worrying.
  
 Any ideas what might be wrong and if it is fixable?

 Thanks!


----------



## UmustBKidn

usastrat said:


> Iv'e had a V1 for a number of months now (more than the 6 month warranty) but stupidly I didn't realize that was how long it was.  I've only put about 3 hours of listening through it because it makes a ticking sound.
> 
> Sorry if this has already been addressed, but the thread was too long to read through the whole thing. I don't know anything about tube mechanics, so I was hoping some amp experts could help me and either help me workout a solution or let me know if this is a hopeless cause.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Doubt the tube would do that, but on the off chance, you could try swapping out another tube. Breaking in a tube will not cure what you describe. The noise has nothing to do with the newness of the tube.
  
 I would sooner believe there's a bad connection: power supply, headphone cable, or the line in cables would be what I'd check next. Have everything running, and try wiggling the connections to see if you can induce the sound you describe. If you find that wiggling one of the wires creates the sound, replace that cable.


----------



## USAstrat

umustbkidn said:


> Doubt the tube would do that, but on the off chance, you could try swapping out another tube. Breaking in a tube will not cure what you describe. The noise has nothing to do with the newness of the tube.
> 
> I would sooner believe there's a bad connection: power supply, headphone cable, or the line in cables would be what I'd check next. Have everything running, and try wiggling the connections to see if you can induce the sound you describe. If you find that wiggling one of the wires creates the sound, replace that cable.


 
  
 Unfortunately, it's not any of the connections, I have already made sure of that.  
  
 When the ticking starts, it's very consistent and runs at a specific bpm, as if there is a metronome running in the background.


----------



## UmustBKidn

usastrat said:


> Unfortunately, it's not any of the connections, I have already made sure of that.
> 
> When the ticking starts, it's very consistent and runs at a specific bpm, as if there is a metronome running in the background.


 
  
 Ok. I'm going to presume that sending it back is not an option. So if it were me, here's what I'd try next:
  
 1) Resolder all the connections. Remove the bottom cover, and one at a time, touch each solder point with a soldering gun, warm it up so the solder melts. You shouldn't need to add solder, what's on the board should be sufficient. All appropriate safety precautions should be observed - don't get shocked. Also, take care not to drop anything out of the board!
  
 This will correct any cold solder joints, which might induce odd connections between components.
  
 2) On the off chance you've got a wonky power supply, try substituting another one. You may also want to check the power outlet you use to plug this into, just to make sure its ok.
  
 3) Failing this, my only other idea would be to start replacing components, one at a time. I'd begin by looking up the various modifications that folks have done to their Bravo's. You can use this as an excuse to enhance yours. Fortunately the components are pretty inexpensive.
  
 These things being cheaply made devices from a far away country, I think we're pretty much on our own when they go south. I'm not sure it would be any better had you discovered this problem within the warranty period. They're even too cheap to ship back and forth to China. These things are great when they work right, and it sucks when they break.


----------



## DefQon

I'd point out to either a poor/cold solder joint near the tube area or a bad contact somewhere a long the LM317 and IRF630 fets. The log pot could also be a culprit, if you have a DMM on hand you can quickly measure all the mirrored points for each channel to see if there is a mismatch in vdc, you can alternatively measure the resistors as a failing resistance could be give you a noisy background.


----------



## HOWIE13

If the clicking is absolutely regular in timing and the music is still heard playing normally in spite of the clicking, I would check for external interference.


----------



## USAstrat

Wow, I figured it out.  I'm guessing this is a known thing- again i'm not very familiar with tube amps.
  
 Turns out my phone was interfering and causing the ticking.  Everytime I place my phone within ~2-3 feet of the amp and receive a text message, the ticking starts and lasts for about 5-10 seconds.  This explains why the ticking would occur at random times.  Pretty dumb of me not to realize, but i'm glad it works again!
  
 Well, thanks for the help guys.  Now that I know my amp is working correctly, i'll probably start going to work with the mods


----------



## White Lotus

Good job!


----------



## money4me247

hey, just wondering if someone experienced cld help me w/ this liddle question: will the bravo v3 tube amp be sufficient to power the HE-400?? thanks


----------



## UmustBKidn

usastrat said:


> Wow, I figured it out.  I'm guessing this is a known thing- again i'm not very familiar with tube amps.
> 
> Turns out my phone was interfering and causing the ticking.  Everytime I place my phone within ~2-3 feet of the amp and receive a text message, the ticking starts and lasts for about 5-10 seconds.  This explains why the ticking would occur at random times.  Pretty dumb of me not to realize, but i'm glad it works again!
> 
> Well, thanks for the help guys.  Now that I know my amp is working correctly, i'll probably start going to work with the mods


 
  
 Hah. Mine does this too. I keep my cell phone within a few inches of my amp/dac at work. I can tell when I'm about to get a text or a call, by the odd buzzing and beeping sounds coming from the amp.
  
 This is a Good Thing (TM) for me. Because I use closed back cans at work, I can't hear a damn thing (which is just fine with me). So the weird little beeps let me know I'm getting a text or a phone call.
  
 For me, its not a bug, it's a Feature


----------



## Noob Meister Jr

anyone know how this thing will drive 250 ohm dt880? In particular I am looking for more clarity in the bass and perhaps a reduction in sibilance.
  
 How would the little dot1+ compare?


----------



## Noob Meister Jr

howie13 said:


> I have no trouble driving the HD600, HD650, AKG K701 and DT880 (250Ohm) with an unmodified BRAVO V3. Rarely is the Vol knob beyond the 9'clock point and I like my music loud. Of course, if you use the passive equaliser filters the volume will drop off, but this is readily compensated for by increasing the volume.


 
 but does it give the headphones clarity in the bass? Specifically the DT880 250 ohm. If all that mattered was volume then you wouldn't need an amp at all as the 880 becomes unbearably loud past the 50% volume on my macbook air.


----------



## HOWIE13

Well I don't use a Macbook but, yes, it does firm up the base, but how much depends to some extent on the tube you use. I listen mainly to classical and the lowest notes are on the Church organ and it readily clarifies low base on the DT880.


----------



## UmustBKidn

noob meister jr said:


> anyone know how this thing will drive 250 ohm dt880? In particular I am looking for more clarity in the bass and perhaps a reduction in sibilance.
> 
> How would the little dot1+ compare?


 
  
 I'm listening to a DT770 / 250 ohm driven by a Bravo V2, with a Schiit Modi DAC, as I write this. It sounds great to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 On this particular setup, I also tend to use Mullard 1950's vintage tubes in my Bravo, for a reduction in things like sibilance and brightness.
  
 I will say that my initial impression was not favorable. But I think that was due to my not ever having heard it before. The human ears are amazingly adaptive devices that can give false first impressions ... as to why, I do not know. But over time I have really come to enjoy this particular combination.


----------



## ostewart

I'll be getting my Ocean soon, will get into tube rolling I think. Not sure which is the best way to go if I want a fairly balanced sounding tube


----------



## adnrew

Hello, I was wondering if anybody would be able to shed some light or supply some insight/tips on an issue I am having with a new Bravo V3.

 It arrived in the mail this afternoon and I was super stoked to get to listening. (I was reading up about them and knew about burn in times ect...so I was expecting to have to wait for the sound to blosom...) but I loved the sound...was very full and great...until about halfway in to song 2. so maybe 5 minutes of playing. the red and blue led's turned off and there was a loud pop then a whole lot of awful crackling. this happened a few times in a row after letting it sit unplugged for a bit. 
  
 I was getting frustrated and started reading up fixes...but didn't really find anything...all I assumed was it was a power or heat issue. when I crank up the voluem when the tube is out but the power is on its crazy crackly but still the music is audible.   at this point i started blowing on the heat syncs and then the leds came back on after a few seconds...

 I now have a desk fan hooked up next to the amp and that seems to be keeping it running fine. and the sound is great. I have the option to return it to the supplier...but that would mean a few months turn around. I've been waiting a month  and my HE-400's are due tomorrow or the next day. 

  
 Are there any known fixes for the V3 overheating? or mods that can be made relatively eaisily to the case and or the heat syncs to let it run at room temp. (my study is quite warm from multiple pc's running 24/7) 

 I've also adjusted the voltage dials? on for each chanell to drop the heat down...they are sitting at about 14.5 each. (they were set around 20-22 from the supplier...)

 Thank you in advance for you advice/wisdom.
  
 Cheers, 
 Andrew


----------



## HOWIE13

I had something similar. I presumed it was damp or condensation after the journey from China and lying in a cold store room and delivery van. I just left it switched on with no audio signal input for 4 hours and also took a hair-dryer and blew warm air all over the connections, including into the tube sockets.
 After the 4 hours I tried again and the problem was gone, and has not returned.
 Good luck-it's worth persevering for the excellent sound. 
 Failing that you could try another tube, just in case there is a problem with one of the pins of the tube provided.


----------



## MDR30

howie13 said:


> I had something similar. I presumed it was damp or condensation after the journey from China and lying in a cold store room and delivery van. I just left it switched on with no audio signal input for 4 hours and also took a hair-dryer and blew warm air all over the connections, including into the tube sockets.
> After the 4 hours I tried again and the problem was gone, and has not returned.
> Good luck-it's worth persevering for the excellent sound.
> Failing that you could try another tube, just in case there is a problem with one of the pins of the tube provided.




Checking and cleaning the pins of the tube (fine grade abrasive paper) sometimes does the trick.


----------



## UmustBKidn

adnrew said:


> Hello, I was wondering if anybody would be able to shed some light or supply some insight/tips on an issue I am having with a new Bravo V3.
> 
> It arrived in the mail this afternoon and I was super stoked to get to listening. (I was reading up about them and knew about burn in times ect...so I was expecting to have to wait for the sound to blosom...) but I loved the sound...was very full and great...until about halfway in to song 2. so maybe 5 minutes of playing. the red and blue led's turned off and there was a loud pop then a whole lot of awful crackling. this happened a few times in a row after letting it sit unplugged for a bit.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Curious. I wonder if there was moisture on the board somewhere. Has it rained in your area recently? The mail carriers sometimes get packages wet in the rain. Some moisture lurking somewhere might explain this. So the fan might have been drying it out, not necessarily cooling it off. I suppose this is one of the dangers of having an open chassis design.
  
 The Bravo does warm up pretty fast. Personally I ordered a small cooling fan for my V2. I keep the fan running at a moderate speed, it doesn't need to be going full blast. Just something to get the air moving over the heat sinks seems to keep mine at a moderate temp (e.g. I can touch the heat sinks without getting burned). It doesn't generate any RFI noise that I can detect.
  
 I would attempt to dry it out a bit and see if things improve. If not, I'd send it back. Even if your cans are coming soon. Otherwise you might end up stuck with an amp that doesn't work - and you'll need to spend money for another.


----------



## DefQon

Sounds like damaged tube or short somewhere on the board


----------



## White Lotus

Just received my V3. Pleasantly surprising. I didn't expect the EQ to actually work, or have semi-decent channel balance.


----------



## HOWIE13

Yes, and the overall sound is not degraded by the equaliser either. Different headphones and tubes respond differently to the equaliser. It's great at cutting back harsh edginess on badly digitally remastered classical recordings..


----------



## UmustBKidn

white lotus said:


> Just received my V3. Pleasantly surprising. I didn't expect the EQ to actually work, or have semi-decent channel balance.


 
  
 If you like the sound with the stock tube, you're really in for a pleasant surprise when you get something better. The 6922 tubes are a bit more expensive, which is one reason I preferred the V2s (the 12AU7's are cheaper to replace). In any case, I would expect a NOS 6922 tube to really improve the sound.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Curious question:
  
 Has anyone tried driving speakers with their Bravo?
  
 These things have so much gain, it would seem that it might be possible. I haven't tried - just wondering if anyone has.


----------



## HOWIE13

The stock tube that came with mine was in fact a 6922.
 I have not noticed any real difference in sound signature/quality between 6922, E88CC and ECC88 tubes by the same manufacturer, but there is certainly a difference between different manufacturers' tubes. Even so, these differences are not usually huge and the V3's equaliser can sometimes create similar changes in sound, which could save you money buying too many different tubes. But then, part of the fun of tubes is rolling them.


----------



## money4me247

hey guys, what tube would you recommend for reducing sibilance? I have the HE400 and I am still adjusting to the silibance. I found EQ-ing works quite well, but I want to see if perhaps different tubes can cause sucha drastic improvement in sound.


----------



## HOWIE13

I haven't used the HE400, and sibilance isn't a problem I have met with so far, but I seem to recall that quite a few people have commented on the need, in general, to equalise the treble with the HE400 to reduce sibilance and other high end issues.  If it's any help, and it's only speculation, you might try the gold pin version of the supplied EH-6922, or a vintage Bugle Boy, Mullard, or GE 'dark glass' as they are all smoother at the top, but it's really just a question of trial and error and it can get quite expensive.


----------



## ostewart

Just got my Ocean amp in. Very powerful for the size, using line out of a Fiio X3 or iPod with Beyerdynamic DT990 600ohm I'm only just passed the imbalance of the volume knob and its still a little too loud.


----------



## UmustBKidn

howie13 said:


> I haven't used the HE400, and sibilance isn't a problem I have met with so far, but I seem to recall that quite a few people have commented on the need, in general, to equalise the treble with the HE400 to reduce sibilance and other high end issues.  If it's any help, and it's only speculation, you might try the gold pin version of the supplied EH-6922, or a vintage Bugle Boy, Mullard, or GE 'dark glass' as they are all smoother at the top, but it's really just a question of trial and error and it can get quite expensive.


 
  
 Sibilance. If you've ever been annoyed by the "Ess" sound being sssssung in sssssome cheap ssssounding headphonesssss, then you have heard sssssibilance. Lol.
  


money4me247 said:


> hey guys, what tube would you recommend for reducing sibilance? I have the HE400 and I am still adjusting to the silibance. I found EQ-ing works quite well, but I want to see if perhaps different tubes can cause sucha drastic improvement in sound.


 
  
 If you spent $400 bucks on cans (those HE-400's) and you are only spending $89 bucks on an amp, then you aren't getting the most out of those headphones. That's the problem. Forget tube rolling and equalizers. You need to spend more money on a better amp and a DAC.
  


howie13 said:


> The stock tube that came with mine was in fact a 6922.
> I have not noticed any real difference in sound signature/quality between 6922, E88CC and ECC88 tubes by the same manufacturer, but there is certainly a difference between different manufacturers' tubes. Even so, these differences are not usually huge and the V3's equaliser can sometimes create similar changes in sound, which could save you money buying too many different tubes. But then, part of the fun of tubes is rolling them.


 
  
 Equalization. Some say it is A Bad Thing, to be used only with audio that already sounds bad, or perhaps gear that really sucks. Most high end audio gear doesn't come with tone controls, nevermind an equalizer. Then again, the Bravo's aren't high end audio gear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 We are firmly planted in Budget-Fi land here.
  
 If you haven't heard much difference in tubes yet, then perhaps it is the case that you haven't tried many tubes yet (or any really good ones). Similarly, if you think an equalizer is a good sssssubstitute for tube rolling, may I propose that it may also be the case that you need to try more tubes?
  
 You may also find others saying that it's kind of silly tube rolling these amps. After all, they need to be modified to sound their best, right? And by the time you go spend some money to buy some really good tubes, you could just go buy a better amp to start with. That, frankly, is the best argument against tube rolling these things.
  
 Unless you haven't heard what "Better" sounds like yet. Or you're stubborn, or perhaps bored. Or you're curious. Maybe a little of all of it.
  
 An equalizer modifies frequency response. It may also introduce noise, phase shift, and other Bad Things. It is not the same thing as tube rolling. And it's not going to eliminate sibilance.
  
 When you're swapping out preamp tubes (which is what the tube is used for in these amps), you are altering the character of the amplifier. There are a lot of other effects on sound quality introduced with different tubes. I'm not going to attempt to discuss it all here, you're just going to need to read the rest of this website 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I think I can reasonably state that it's not the same. If you doubt, please bring your question up in some of the other forums.
  
 One thing I've noticed about audio gear at the budget end of the spectrum, is that there is a really huge variation in quality. The other thing to keep in mind is, we're not all listening with the same set of headphones. Or the same DAC (if you're even using one). Or the same set of ears (they are all different). Improvements in sound quality are all over the map in Budget-Fi land. Some folks will even tell you that all amplifiers are the same (though I couldn't disagree more).
  
 Beyond a certain point, the law of Diminishing Returns comes into play - the more you spend, the smaller the improvements get. Which means, the biggest improvements can be heard on the low end of the scale. So the trick is, finding the biggest bang for the buck. You need to spend enough money to get decent sound (because the cheapest amps just aren't worth it). Basically if you're spending $100 bucks or less on any single component in your system, you (like me) are on a budget.
  
 But since we're all in this particular forum, please recognize that we're talking Budget-Fi. If you have good cans, then get a better DAC and a better amp first. That's the problem.


----------



## money4me247

@UmustBKidn,
  
 lol we are talking budget-fi, and your suggestion is to spend more money. ironic much? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So I only got the HE400 d/t the $300 black friday sale & I only got the bravo v3 b/c i found em for $65. So for less than $400, I own an ortho pair of headphones and a tube amp. pretty cooolio 
  
 Pretty sure I already hit the biggest bang for my buck right here. To upgrade my headphones, I'll have to go up to $700 for the HE500. To get a DAC, I'll have to throw down $100 at least. To upgrade to another tube amp, at least $200 (for project starlight) up to $400 (for lyr). So basically any equipment upgrade I make will be at least 25-50% of my current total cost, and I know for a fact that DACs/amps will not give you a 25-50% boost in sound quality ...so like you said: diminishing returns.
  
 however, tubes are relatively cheap. you can find some for $10. So they only need to improve the sound by 3% to be worth while for me. That is why I am asking about tube rolling/tube suggestions. I am actually perfectly happy with the sound already. Just want to be rollinggggg, because that was the whole point of buying a cheap tube amp. So I could try tube rolling & see what all the fuss is about w/o spending too much $$$.
  
 The nice thing about the HE400 is that it is easy to power (aka don't need an fancy expensive amp). don't really need a DAC for them either for them to sound good. They aren't like Sennheisers HD600/650 or Audeze or HE-500/HE-6 that people say require more high-end equipment to sound good. I was browsing the HE400 forums, there are pretty of people who experience silibance w/ HE400 paired along with $400 DAC/amps. The reason that there is a treble spike at 12k. You EQ that away, the issue isn't really noticeable anymore. I've actually only noticed the silibance on two tracks in my entire collection so far from 4 days of listening, so I imagine it is more a problem w/ the source than the headphones. They are a lot more revealing than my previous headphones, so that is why I never noticed the distortion before. I've also discovered a lot of songs in my collection are poorly recorded lol...


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> @UmustBKidn,
> 
> lol we are talking budget-fi, and your suggestion is to spend more money. ironic much?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, yeah. I can be ironic, when it is appropriate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But your point is well taken. So I am happy you found some good cans on sale. Nice work.
  
 If you don't own a DAC, then it would be my suggestion that you get one of those next. Personally, of the two DAC's I own, I would highly recommend the Schiit Modi. As long as you're going to be listening from music stored on a computer, that is. And yeah, it's going to cost you $99 bucks, but honestly bro, the Modi is the best damn DAC you are going to find for that price range. Hands down. Nothing else under 100 clams beats it.
  
 You will hear some differences doing some tube rolling without a DAC. But really, you are missing out on a whole different level of detail, that you just won't appreciate until you insert a DAC into your setup. I know, you won't believe it until you try it. But when you try it, you will come back and say yes, it is soooo much better.
  
 So, yeah. For you sir, a DAC is next.


----------



## money4me247

@UmustBKidn,
  
 good suggestion. a DAC is probably the next step in my next equipment upgrade. but I actually have an old AV receiver that I lent out to a friend, so I prob won't end up needing to spend anymore money.
  
 ahhh... that is where you are so wrong my friend. While the Modi might be the "best damn DAC" you can get for $100... that is looking at things from sticker price. What you need to do is find the best DACs in the price bracket that are slightly above your budget... and then you just wait for the inevitable sale. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 heh... welcome to the real world of budget-fi!!!


----------



## ostewart

Ocean tube:


----------



## Cafofo

Guys, i have a Bravo Audio V2 and wanna trade the energy source. I got an printer source with 32v in line, there´s any problem? I heard that printer source are good because there´s less noise than usually, that´s true?
 Model : HP 0957-2105


----------



## DefQon

cafofo said:


> Guys, i have a Bravo Audio V2 and wanna trade the energy source. I got an printer source with 32v in line, there´s any problem? I heard that printer source are good because there´s less noise than usually, that´s true?
> Model : HP 0957-2105




Not going work since it is not a regulated ps and you'd need change all the capacitors to 35v + rated ones and increase the resistance of the cathode resistor so it doesn't take more than 6.3v. The only PSU improvemebt you can give the Bravo based amps is to build a 24-25v feedoff from a Sigma 22 regulated psu kit.


----------



## money4me247

I was wondering if anyone here figured out a solution for EF shielding for these bravo amps. Mine crackles if my phone is nearby, wondering if there is a permanent fix rather than disabling data connection at home.


----------



## DefQon

Build an enclosure for it.


----------



## mcandmar

umustbkidn said:


> I went to build a shopping list for modifying my V2 the other night, and much to my dismay have discovered that Mouser is out of IRL510's. I'm wary of buying some from ebay, but unless I want to wait until February, I'm out of luck. I am really, really wanting to mod one of my V2's to see what it sounds like. I may have to wait. So if I don't have to work overtime over the holidays, I may finally buy a Bottlehead Crack and have some fun building my own amp. At which point I'll have to start the whole tube buying exercise with power tubes. Yowza.


 
  
 Not sure if you did this in the end but i picked up two IRF510's from ebay and they made an unbelievable difference to this little V2.  /insert hyperbole comments here ***
  
 Seriously, its a total transformation, replacing the output caps and resistors improved the clarity, replacing the tube changes its character, but replacing the transistors took it from a novelty toy to a really really nice sounding amp.
  
 Next challenge is the 24v power supply, the one supplied is an utter piece of crap.  I managed to quieten it down by fitting the components that were missing/bypassed on the PCB.  I.e. input and output chokes/caps.  But a decent linear 24v supply would make a world of difference, and the amp is so good its justified.
  
 For the $20 i paid for the amp, + $3 worth of caps/transistors its a bargain, and looks cute too..


----------



## UmustBKidn

mcandmar said:


> Not sure if you did this in the end but i picked up two IRF510's from ebay and they made an unbelievable difference to this little V2.  /insert hyperbole comments here ***
> 
> ...


 
  
 I haven't looked lately. Work and life in general has been too busy.
  
 But I am curious why you chose the IRF 510 over the IRL 510? It was my understanding that the IRL 510 was the superior component (though I don't remember why right now).
  
 I guess one reason I haven't jumped on this sooner is that I just don't think I listen to my music loud enough to hear much difference. It's only when I'm doing what I'd call "critical listening" (with increased volume) that I am wanting something better. But as I mentioned, life has been too busy. Someone in my family needs a job to pay the bills, and so far it's been me lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I haven't put up a Christmas tree yet either. Oh well.


----------



## money4me247

In terms of modding bravo tube amps... do you need to know how to sodder & all that jazzz?


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> In terms of modding bravo tube amps... do you need to know how to sodder & all that jazzz?


 
  
 Yes. Soldering skillz are necessary. So is a soldering gun. And solder. Probably also some solder wick, or a solder sucker.


----------



## money4me247

umustbkidn said:


> Yes. Soldering skillz are necessary. So is a soldering gun. And solder. Probably also some solder wick, or a solder sucker.


 
 .....soooo if i have no idea what you're talking about, modding my cute liddle bravo v3 is outta the question?


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> .....soooo if i have no idea what you're talking about, modding my cute liddle bravo v3 is outta the question?


 
  
 Hah. Now that's funny 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But seriously, there is a whole world out there for DIY audio. There are even projects you can attempt, just to teach yourself things like soldering skillz.
  
 How would you react if I goofed up your amp? You'd want me to buy you a new one. And it's just not worth it to me.
  
 Besides, you wouldn't like my hourly rate. I'm not cheap


----------



## mcandmar

umustbkidn said:


> I haven't looked lately. Work and life in general has been too busy.
> 
> But I am curious why you chose the IRF 510 over the IRL 510? It was my understanding that the IRL 510 was the superior component (though I don't remember why right now).
> 
> ...


 

 Because at the time the IRF is all i could easily get.  But your right the IRL is supposed to be slightly better.   The difference isnt to do with output volume but the quality of what you hear, with the 510 it has much more clarity and detail. I think its a faster part which would translate into better resolution.
  
 On a side note i picked up a Sylvania and GE tube for it which i tested out last night.  Oddly i think i prefer the Chinese tube that came with it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 @*money4me247*: There is only one way to learn, no better place to start than these budget amps


----------



## UmustBKidn

mcandmar said:


> Because at the time the IRF is all i could easily get.  But your right the IRL is supposed to be slightly better.   The difference isnt to do with output volume but the quality of what you hear, with the 510 it has much more clarity and detail. I think its a faster part which would translate into better resolution.
> 
> On a side note i picked up a Sylvania and GE tube for it which i tested out last night.  Oddly i think i prefer the Chinese tube that came with it
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting. I guess if I wasn't so busy at work, I might go for the IRF. I might still, so thank you for that pointer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The Sylvania and GE 12AU7 tubes I have tried, are only marginally better than the stock Shuguang tubes. The GE 5-star 5963 was noticeably better. Long black plate tubes, even better than that. Of the old American tubes, I'd have to say the Tung-Sol tubes are probably tops. You need to go to Amperex, Telefunken, or Mullard tubes to improve over those. The quality among those three European makers is tops; the only choice is whether you're looking to brighten something up, or tone it down.
  
 I had to distract myself from some family issues over last summer, so I did what some might consider foolish, and started collecting 12AU7 tubes (and its plug-in variants like 5963's and 5814's). And rolling them in my stock Bravo V2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 I left some tube rolling notes in this thread, along with another member's impressions. That may help you decide, should you continue that effort.


----------



## DefQon

The IRF510/530/610/630 are all pretty much the same, if you replace the IRF630 with 510 you're just wasting time and money.
  
 IRL or go home.


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> The IRF510/530/610/630 are all pretty much the same, if you replace the IRF630 with 510 you're just wasting time and money.
> 
> IRL or go home.


 
  
 Hmm. Ok, that is also good to know. Thank you sir.


----------



## mcandmar

> Originally Posted by *UmustBKidn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The Sylvania and GE 12AU7 tubes I have tried, are only marginally better than the stock Shuguang tubes. The GE 5-star 5963 was noticeably better. Long black plate tubes, even better than that. Of the old American tubes, I'd have to say the Tung-Sol tubes are probably tops. You need to go to Amperex, Telefunken, or Mullard tubes to improve over those. The quality among those three European makers is tops; the only choice is whether you're looking to brighten something up, or tone it down.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That was a great read thanks.  Of the tubes i picked up the Sylvania would be my favorite, its a long black plate where as all the rest are short grey plates.  Interesting nobody likes the stock Chinese tube, i found it smoother than the others, and more neutral. Curious as i was expecting it to be tiny and harsh sounding.


----------



## Evshrug

With tubes, even ones sold with "strong" or "good" or "like new" ratings, I've found it to be kind of a luck game to get really good samples. That said, of the 8 tubes I've bought, only one seemed to be so dark that I think it could be "poor quality."

So far the Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 I tried was my favourite, but it may be very close to the very balanced Voskhod I am using now.


----------



## UmustBKidn

evshrug said:


> With tubes, even ones sold with "strong" or "good" or "like new" ratings, I've found it to be kind of a luck game to get really good samples. That said, of the 8 tubes I've bought, only one seemed to be so dark that I think it could be "poor quality."
> 
> So far the Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 I tried was my favourite, but it may be very close to the very balanced Voskhod I am using now.


 
  
 Indeed. It's just amazing how many variables there are with tubes...
  
 - Age of the device;
 - Test measurements (indicating how "new" or how "used" a tube is);
 - Balance between triodes (in the case of tubes like the 12AU7);
 - The synergy (or lack of it) between the tube, the amp, the cans, the DAC, and your ears;
 - The type of music being listened to (some will highlight "tube" sound more than others);
 - Circuits that auto-bias vs. those that do not (like the Bravo's)
  
 I'd say the 4th bullet above is probably the most important. Like all pairings in this hobby, the pairing of a tube with everything else in your system is what seems to count the most.  After all, the exercise of tube rolling is an attempt at finding a tube that makes everything else in your system, sound it's best, to you. Pairing a bright tube like a Telefunken with a set of bright cans, a bright amp, a bright DAC, and music with a lot of treble in it, might make you scream in pain, or at least wonder why someone thought so highly of Telefunken tubes.
  
 So, yeah. I know I'm not hearing top quality while listening to a cheap amp like a Bravo. I've probably spent enough money on tubes to have bought myself a Bottlehead Crack by now, lol. Which is why I stopped buying them. I've heard as much as I can hear for now. But I am holding on to those tubes, because I know I will want to use them again when I do buy the Crack, or when I do finally mod one of my Bravo's.


----------



## Evshrug

If you decide to mod your Bravo (or Indeed?), look back through this thread for JudgeBuff's posts. It's fun to read through his explorations.


----------



## HOWIE13

I must say I am rather sceptical of some of the claims made by some tube web-sellers regarding their test measurements. These testing machines are nowadays very expensive to purchase and just about impossible to obtain in Europe. Sellers in the USA  nearly always refuse to ship internationally, presumably because of the risk of loss and damage. So where do these myriad of sellers obtain their putative measurements from?


----------



## UmustBKidn

howie13 said:


> I must say I am rather sceptical of some of the claims made by some tube web-sellers regarding their test measurements. These testing machines are nowadays very expensive to purchase and just about impossible to obtain in Europe. Sellers in the USA  nearly always refuse to ship internationally, presumably because of the risk of loss and damage. So where do these myriad of sellers obtain their putative measurements from?


 

 Good question. I would presume that some of them do in fact own their own test machines. Some of those sellers do a significant business in vintage tubes. So it really isn't much of a stretch to imagine that some are using vintage test machines. If reputation is a top concern to you, and you don't want to deal with eBay, I highly suggest Brent Jesse, at www.audiotubes.com. His tubes are not cheap, but I trust him. I've bought from him, and I have had good luck using him.
  
 That being said, there seems to be quite a variety of these machines, that also seem to measure different characteristics. Some ads just say the tube was tested, offer a "percent good" reading, and that's it. You need to ask the seller what that means, because lots of them don't want to tell you. And I agree, some of that seems like snake oil to me. I dont think there is a way to be absolutely sure. If you have access to a similar machine and can verify the measurement after receiving the tube, that would be your best bet.
  
 If you spend any time chatting with the sellers, they bring up another problem: some buyers purchase vintage tubes for big bucks, then attempt to return the tubes - but what they send back isn't the original tube ... its a similar tube with the same date code, but inferior measurements. So, some buyers attempt to scam legitimate sellers in this way. One guy I chatted with in England, was so adamant about not releasing the exact mullard date codes on his tubes, that he was willing to risk ticking off potential customers, instead of revealing the date codes. I guess it's hard to blame him. Clearly, he has been burned.
  
 Other sellers refuse to sell to certain countries (Italy seems to come up a lot, also South Korea). Personally, I refuse to buy from most other countries, because if something goes wrong, you have no recourse. That eBay store front gives the illusion that every seller and buyer can be trusted. That really isn't the case. I got burned way back when eBay was brand new, and didn't use it for a long long time because of that. It's better now than it was in the 90's, but there are still scams.
  
 So, yeah. Buyer beware. There really are no guarantees (except maybe what you can get from ebay itself). Personally, I've only come across 2 wonky tubes, out of about 3 dozen. That's not such a bad record.


----------



## Evshrug

Audiotubes.com and Tubemaze.com
What other sellers have you found to be of good repute? I have a web tab open to Cryoset.com right now.


----------



## UmustBKidn

evshrug said:


> Audiotubes.com and Tubemaze.com
> What other sellers have you found to be of good repute? I have a web tab open to Cryoset.com right now.


 
  
 Never heard of them. I tend to avoid anything with "cryo" in it - that's more snake oil IMO.
  
 Not personally tried, but here's another vendor: tubedepot.com. They are insanely expensive, $299 for a Mullard 12AU7. You're better off taking your chances on ebay lol.
  
 Another vendor, not personally tried, but cheaper than the above: www.vacuumtubes.com. His prices seem a bit more in line with reality.


----------



## money4me247

umustbkidn said:


> Never heard of them. I tend to avoid anything with "cryo" in it - that's more snake oil IMO.


 
 lol... well, when you die in a few decades & i get unfrozen by future technology, we can discuss snake oil vs real science 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ...oh wait, we won't b/c you were not cryogenically preserved


----------



## HOWIE13

@ UmustBKidn: 
 Fascinating and very helpful reply. The Audiotubes website has lots of information. It's all very bewildering though, especially when there are different ways of assessing tubes, different machines measuring different things, and on top of all that there is the question of whether the machine is up to date with its calibration.
 I guess in the days when tubes were ubiquitous as an electronic component people were used to all these measurements. Today, it seems to me that the machines may be useful if well calibrated and interpreted correctly, but could also be grossly misleading. I think I will go for what looks like 'reasonable value' tubes and keep my fingers crossed that they will sound OK.


----------



## money4me247

help w/ this query. I read the following:


> The Bravo amps are suitable for _*high impedance and low efficiency headphones only*_, while the Little Dot 1+ can handle low impedance, high efficiency headphones.


 
 I was wondering if this statement has any bias in truth as I compared the specs for both amps & their impedance is about the same:
 Bravo V3: Out-Put Impedance: 20~600 Ohm
 Little Dot 1+: Suitable Headphone Impedance: 8 - 600 ohms [Note: they do NOT state the actual output impedance]
  
 If someone can answer this question, it would be much appreciated!  I was curious b/c the poster claims that the HE-400 won't work well w/ the V3, as the HE400 are low impedance, high efficiency headphones (Impedance: 35 Ohm, Sensitivity: 92.5 DB).
  


Spoiler: Bravo V3 full specs



[size=1em]
In Put PowerDC24VInput Sensitivity100mVInput Impedance100KOhmOut-Put Impedance20~600 OhmGain30dBFrequency response10Hz-60KHz +/- 0.25dBSignal/Noise Ratio>90dBDynamic range84.6dBA(300 ohm) 89.8dBA(33 ohm)THD0.016%(300 ohm) 0.45%(33 ohm)IMD + Noise:0.045(300 ohm) 0.42(33ohm)Dimension79mm (D) X 130mm (W) X 44mm (H)InputStereo RCA x1, Stereo 3.5mm x1OutputStereo 6.35mm x1
[/size]


  


Spoiler: Little Dot 1+ Full Specs



Frequency Response: 10HZ - 50KHz (-3 dB)
 THD+N:
 0.2%: 1Vrms @ 1000Hz
 0.6%: 3Vrms @ 1000Hz
 1.0%: 5Vrms @ 1000Hz
 Signal-to-Noise: 92dB
 Suitable Headphone Impedance: 8 - 600 ohms
 Input Impedance: 50K ohms
 Power Output:
 150mW @ 300 ohms
 300mW @ 120 ohms
 800mW @ 32 ohms
 User variable gain settings: 6.5x or 3.25x
 Power Consumption: 15VA


----------



## mhamel

money4me247 said:


> help w/ this query. I read the following:
> I was wondering if this statement has any bias in truth as I compared the specs for both amps & their impedance is about the same:
> Bravo V3: Out-Put Impedance: 20~600 Ohm
> Little Dot 1+: Suitable Headphone Impedance: 8 - 600 ohms [Note: they do NOT state the actual output impedance]
> ...


 
  
 The issue with the Bravo amps and high sensitivity cans is that it has a ton of gain (+30dB), where the gain on the LD 1+ is both lower and adjustable.  With high sensitivity and a fixed line level input, you'll barely have any adjustment in the volume pot on the Bravo.
  
   -Mike


----------



## money4me247

mhamel said:


> The issue with the Bravo amps and high sensitivity cans is that it has a ton of gain (+30dB), where the gain on the LD 1+ is both lower and adjustable.  With high sensitivity and a fixed line level input, you'll barely have any adjustment in the volume pot on the Bravo.
> 
> -Mike


 
 thanks for your quick response. besides what you've said about the volume, are there any other potential issues or inadequacies based on the specs? I am just primarily worried about sound quality.
  
 I've also read somewhere that you should have the output impedance of the amp 1/8 of the headphones, but from my experience a 4ohm impedance headphone amp must be truly rare as I haven't found anything like that.


----------



## HOWIE13

Isn't 92.5dB relatively low sensitivity for these types of headphones?


----------



## mhamel

howie13 said:


> @ UmustBKidn:
> Fascinating and very helpful reply. The Audiotubes website has lots of information. It's all very bewildering though, especially when there are different ways of assessing tubes, different machines measuring different things, and on top of all that there is the question of whether the machine is up to date with its calibration.
> I guess in the days when tubes were ubiquitous as an electronic component people were used to all these measurements. Today, it seems to me that the machines may be useful if well calibrated and interpreted correctly, but could also be grossly misleading. I think I will go for what looks like 'reasonable value' tubes and keep my fingers crossed that they will sound OK.


 
  
 I buy and sell some tubes, and before I really got into it, I invested in a good tester.   After looking at the options for vintage testers, the costs/challenges to get them rebuilt and keep them properly calibrated, I went with a modern digital tester.  http://www.maximatcher.com/maxipreamp.html   There are others out there at lower and higher price points as well.   There are some eBay sellers that are very good about testing/matching, but there are others that I also think are full of crap.   I've seen where someone posts photos of the test results of the tubes he/she sells, and they use the same photo in every ad.   Every tube shows exactly the same result?  Not a chance.    
  
 That's not to say that vintage testers aren't good.  For someone with the knowledge, time and experience to keep them in top shape, they can be very accurate.  In addition, sellers like Brent Jesse have curve tracers that let them plot the response curves of the tube and compare it to the manufacturer's data sheet, giving an even more accurate result on how the tube performs compared to spec.   There's a lot of time involved, that's a big part of why he's expensive.
  
 When I sell a tube, I test it after a brief warm up, then again after at least an hour or two to see how it has stabilized.  I record the results, then listen to it through both my tester, which is ultra-sensitive to any sort of tube noise, and within an amp.  Finally, it gets tested again after being fully warmed up to make sure the results are consistent.  Every tube gets a label with the exact results that come out of the tester, and I'm happy to explain them, how those results compare to the published data sheets, etc.
  
 With the Bravo amps, since there's only a single tube involved, it's easier than having to find matched pairs or quads, but you do want to make sure the tube's triode sections are as well balanced as you can find.  It's also helpful to look for a tube that's been tested for gain between the sections as well.
  
    -Mike


----------



## HOWIE13

@Mike
 Thanks for the advice about the Maximatcher. I'll look into that. It would be nice to think that all sellers are as thorough as you are!


----------



## MaN227

its interesting how long these have held interest


----------



## mhamel

howie13 said:


> @Mike
> Thanks for the advice about the Maximatcher. I'll look into that. It would be nice to think that all sellers are as thorough as you are!


 
  
 Howie,
  
 If you'd like a decent modern tester without completely breaking the bank, check out the Tube Imp.
  
     -Mike


----------



## HOWIE13

@Mike.
 Brilliant-it's ordered!
 Thanks again.


----------



## Evshrug

umustbkidn said:


> Never heard of them. I tend to avoid anything with "cryo" in it - that's more snake oil IMO.
> 
> Not personally tried, but here's another vendor: tubedepot.com. They are insanely expensive, $299 for a Mullard 12AU7. You're better off taking your chances on ebay lol.
> 
> Another vendor, not personally tried, but cheaper than the above: www.vacuumtubes.com. His prices seem a bit more in line with reality.



More tube sources is always a boon.

I'm not 100% sure cryo treating provides a benefit (although superconductors usually need to be kept extremely cold before they start to super-conduct, so it seems it MAY have some legitimacy though I suspect the molecular "alignment" gets scattered a bit more every time the tube heats up, that's basic physics), but I figure they're at least decent samples of tubes.



mhamel said:


> The issue with the Bravo amps and high sensitivity cans is that it has a ton of gain (+30dB), where the gain on the LD 1+ is both lower and adjustable.  With high sensitivity and a fixed line level input, you'll barely have any adjustment in the volume pot on the Bravo.
> 
> -Mike



2x What Mike said.

To elaborate:
The bravo amps are just too loud for many sensitive headphones, you have to keep the volume turned down really really low to keep from damaging your hearing. When potentiometers (volume knobs) are turned down that much, they create a channel imbalance which will either sound like one earcup is louder OR just off and unnatural (good manufacturers go to great lengths to match the drivers in their top headphones). The other problem, LOUD enough doesn't always equal GOOD. Headphones need a good supply of current to have the dynamic range to supply high-energy notes like low bass and complex music passages with lots going on... It tightens up music and allows them to play smoothly. I hate the song, but Kanye West's "Gold Digger" percussion is a great example of (poor mastering and) a sound that will easily distort if the headphone drivers can't handle the excursion or if they don't get enough current to prevent clipping.



money4me247 said:


> thanks for your quick response. besides what you've said about the volume, are there any other potential issues or inadequacies based on the specs? I am just primarily worried about sound quality.
> 
> I've also read somewhere that you should have the output impedance of the amp 1/8 of the headphones, but from my experience a 4ohm impedance headphone amp must be truly rare as I haven't found anything like that.



There are many factors influencing that, but to look at it that simply is a myth. What do you think even happens when you don't have a lot of headphone impedance to dampen the amp output impedance?

Exacerbated by that designer of the O2, the real situation where having good headphone:amp dampening is important is when the headphone doesn't have a flat impedance curve... Check Inner Fidelity's impedance curve measurement for your headphone before you start obsessing about amp output impedance. For example, Sennheiser's HD headphones often have spikes in their imp curves (so bass would be boosted and hazed over), while the AKG Q701 and Beyerdynamic DT880 (and pretty much my entire headphone collection, even the V-MODA M-100) all have relatively flat imp curves and barely change at all. Many home theater receivers have headphone output impedances over 100 or 120 ohms, but plug your headphones into them... do they sound like crap?


----------



## money4me247

Response is in BOLD.
  
 Quote:


evshrug said:


> To elaborate:
> The bravo amps are just too loud for many sensitive headphones, you have to keep the volume turned down really really low to keep from damaging your hearing. When potentiometers (volume knobs) are turned down that much, they create a channel imbalance which will either sound like one earcup is louder OR just off and unnatural (good manufacturers go to great lengths to match the drivers in their top headphones). The other problem, LOUD enough doesn't always equal GOOD. Headphones need a good supply of current to have the dynamic range to supply high-energy notes like low bass and complex music passages with lots going on... It tightens up music and allows them to play smoothly. I hate the song, but Kanye West's "Gold Digger" percussion is a great example of (poor mastering and) a sound that will easily distort if the headphone drivers can't handle the excursion or if they don't get enough current to prevent clipping. *Thank you for that helpful information. I have noticed that I am keeping the headphone volume knob at pretty low dial, but I haven’t noticed any clipping or other audio problems with my pairing even with “Gold Digger.” Any specific audio problems I should be looking out for?*
> 
> There are many factors influencing that, but to look at it that simply is a myth. What do you think even happens when you don't have a lot of headphone impedance to dampen the amp output impedance? *mmm… I honestly have no idea. Sorry if the answer is supposed to be obvious *
> ...


 


Spoiler: Bravo V3 specs refresher



  
In Put PowerDC24VInput Sensitivity100mVInput Impedance100KOhmOut-Put Impedance20~600 OhmGain30dBFrequency response10Hz-60KHz +/- 0.25dBSignal/Noise Ratio>90dBDynamic range84.6dBA(300 ohm) 89.8dBA(33 ohm)THD0.016%(300 ohm) 0.45%(33 ohm)IMD + Noise:0.045(300 ohm) 0.42(33ohm)Dimension79mm (D) X 130mm (W) X 44mm (H)InputStereo RCA x1, Stereo 3.5mm x1OutputStereo 6.35mm x1


----------



## HOWIE13

I would agree in that I have never been persuaded by the eight times rule. The bass is meant to become somewhat uncontrolled, but I have never noticed that.
 For Classical Music and Jazz the V3 volume knob is no problem for me driving even sensitive headphones. Maybe it's because Classical music is less compressed, with wider dynamics and generally lower output. I find the useful knob range is from about '20 to' to just over the '12 o'clock' position.


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> lol... well, when you die in a few decades & i get unfrozen by future technology, we can discuss snake oil vs real science
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So cryo-preservation of human beings is real science?


----------



## DefQon

Cryo tubes is bigger marketing bs scam than cryo cables.
  
 Anyway that's not the point.
  
 High gain on the Bravo amps with variable sensitivity headphones? Easily fixable. Of course given the craptastic and improper components used for this particular basic class A circuit. Swap the 10K pot for a 50 or 100K (if your source can accept it). The stock pot has to go, volume doesn't go up step by step in terms of db but one little turn after 11'O clock on the dial and you go from small volume to loud.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DefQon
 I've never noticed a particularly sensitive point whilst turning the V3 volume knob. Have just tried again now and volume increase is smooth and I can't detect that particular problem.
 I wonder if the source input voltage might make a difference? Maybe a faulty unit?


----------



## DefQon

howie13 said:


> @DefQon
> I've never noticed a particularly sensitive point whilst turning the V3 volume knob. Have just tried again now and volume increase is smooth and I can't detect that particular problem.
> I wonder if the source input voltage might make a difference? Maybe a faulty unit?


 
  
 I'm referring to the v1. Haven't pulled a v3 apart before.


----------



## money4me247

interesting stuff. i've ever noticed an issue finding the appropriate volume as I can adjust the volume on my laptop & my music player after turning the knob.


----------



## arcorob

I am new here so pardon if this has been discussed to death..
  
 I have a Bravo II Headphone amp (did a pretty in depth review on another forum) and have never experienced any sonic issues. The thing I liked best about it was it had a standard 12AU7 tube (Shugang) that I easily rolled with some NOS vintage tubes. Amazing, the different flavors ..Mullard, GE, RCA...
  
 I did use it as a buffer (improperly I am told) from a tablet to my main rig using the headphone jack to a pair of RCA's as an aux input to my Marantz pre. I was told NOT to do that as their were some nasty electrical variances coming out of that jack...
  
 Strictly as a headphone amp though, I think it sounds great with my Senn HD280 Pro headphone..no ..not top of the line, but decent. I think many people can benefit from the BRAVO ...Just as in other pieces of equipment ..there are the enthusiasts and the premium audiophiles...its all about the music , right ?
  
 I find the gain control to be just fine however; agree that too much (past about 1 oclock ) can introduce some distortion.


----------



## money4me247

@arcorob, your images aren't correctly posted.


----------



## arcorob

OOps ..sorry...
  
 How about this
  
 https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/536918_590885987593534_776388585_n.jpg
  
 https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/59490_590884757593657_1742132813_n.jpg


----------



## HOWIE13

Could anybody explain the electronic specifications and musical differences (if any) between 12AU7 and 6DJ8 tubes? 
  
 I ask this because there is a tendency to lump all Bravo amps into one category, yet both these tubes are used in different models. Or are the differences so small that the rest of the circuit matters much more with these Bravo Amps?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## UmustBKidn

howie13 said:


> Could anybody explain the electronic specifications and musical differences (if any) between 12AU7 and 6DJ8 tubes?
> 
> I ask this because there is a tendency to lump all Bravo amps into one category, yet both these tubes are used in different models. Or are the differences so small that the rest of the circuit matters much more with these Bravo Amps?
> 
> Thanks.


 
  
 I'm not qualified. But I found these articles, hope this helps:
  
The Suitability of the 6DJ8 for Audio
  
Joe's Tube Lore


----------



## HOWIE13

UmustBKidn
  
Thanks for the links. Plenty reading there to keep me busy this morning.


----------



## arcorob

u..
  
  
 Perfect ! BTW...Joe's is how I first heard about Sylvania Gold letter 12AX7's(5751)...after trying about 12 other types..LOL
  
 I do know that in some cases the 6DJ8 and 12AU7 can be substituted for each other but in some cases, not a good idea. Goes back to the original question on the circuit. a 12AU7 can run with a 6v or 12v heater whereas the 6DJ8 is only 6V
  
 Hmm..Having said that...I am now thinking of something else for a Aune T1...


----------



## UmustBKidn

arcorob said:


> u..
> 
> 
> Perfect ! BTW...Joe's is how I first heard about Sylvania Gold letter 12AX7's(5751)...after trying about 12 other types..LOL
> ...


 
  
 I suspect (though can't prove) that the Bravo's are all the same circuit, with a different heater setup for the different tubes, and an EQ for the V3. I have variously heard some people proclaim the V2 to be better than the V1, and others say that 6922 tubes are better than 12AU7's (also something I have no clue about). Still others buy the Ocean and proclaim it best (maybe because they paid more for it?)
  
 In my brief experience, I have found the 12AU7's and its variants to be (mostly) less expensive than the 6922's, but that could just be chalked up to random chance on eBay. I suppose like a lot of other things in this hobby, that's an entirely subjective observation. I like cheap, so I went with the V2.
  
 Personally, I'm not going to be buying a V1 or a V3 to find out which is best. I did toy with the idea of buying a V1 before I bought my second V2, but decided against it. The real reason I wanted two V2's was spare parts, lol. Just in case one of them blows up, or I goof up one of them when I finally get around to modding. Or in case the PS takes a dump, etc. In retrospect, I probably should have gone for something different. On the bright side, at least it wasn't an expensive mistake.


----------



## HOWIE13

Nice thing about the Bravos is that there is only one tube to roll. I wondered about a Little dot as the next stage up but I find the different versions confusing and there are more tubes to roll each time. Do you have any suggestions for a relatively inexpensive upgrade from the Bravos or would anything else significantly better break the bank?


----------



## DefQon

Dude the Bravo is an el cheapo, if you want a tube amp I'll just give you a Darkvoice 339 or something.


----------



## HOWIE13

They look interesting and review well with HD 600/650. Will need to save up to buy though, plus tube rolling expenses.
 Do you think Little dot are not worth considering then?


----------



## DefQon

howie13 said:


> They look interesting and review well with HD 600/650. Will need to save up to buy though, plus tube rolling expenses.
> Do you think Little dot are not worth considering then?


 
  
 Which LD are you referring to?
  
 If you can diy a bit with a soldering iron, own the HD600/HD650, Bottlehead Crack no questions asked. You'd have to pay over a $1000 to get that combo's sound performance.
  
 No bullschit siree.


----------



## HOWIE13

That looks good-it's for a novice DIY'er- that's me.
 Thanks
 Cheers.


----------



## money4me247

Quote:



defqon said:


> Dude the Bravo is an el cheapo, if you want a tube amp I'll just give you a Darkvoice 339 or something.


 
 is this a real offer? lol! i'll take you up on it! 
  
  Quote:


howie13 said:


> They look interesting and review well with HD 600/650. Will need to save up to buy though, plus tube rolling expenses.
> Do you think Little dot are not worth considering then?


 
 another great option (IMO) to consider is garage 1217 tube amps! new project sunrise 3 out & project ember are both really highly reviewed  
http://www.garage1217.com/index.html


----------



## Evshrug

Money4me:



> mmm… I honestly have no idea. Sorry if the answer is supposed to be obvious



It was a question I didn't expect you to know the answer to offhand, I asked not to trick you BUT to get you to think. Gotta know what "problem" is being solved, or find out if there really is a problem at all!

Your HE-400, my AKG, my Etymotic, etc... All these headphones, in fact most of the ones I've heard or looked at, are barely affected by output impedance. I'd still suggest a look at graphs before a new headphone purchase, but overall I'd say this 1/8th rule was created by a guy picking at straws (assuming his Sennheiser represents the majority of the market... How does one become an Electrical Engineer, spend money on testing equipment, test one headphone and say "Technically a headphone with a flat impedance response would be unaffected, but I don't know of any headphone like that." !?? NwAv Guy readily picks on little things and flames other companies, but he's oddly narrow in scope.


End rant.
Listen to great music!
Be more carefree!
Have a happy holiday!


----------



## mcandmar

umustbkidn said:


> I suspect (though can't prove) that the Bravo's are all the same circuit, with a different heater setup for the different tubes, and an EQ for the V3. I have variously heard some people proclaim the V2 to be better than the V1, and others say that 6922 tubes are better than 12AU7's (also something I have no clue about). Still others buy the Ocean and proclaim it best (maybe because they paid more for it?)
> 
> In my brief experience, I have found the 12AU7's and its variants to be (mostly) less expensive than the 6922's, but that could just be chalked up to random chance on eBay. I suppose like a lot of other things in this hobby, that's an entirely subjective observation. I like cheap, so I went with the V2.
> 
> Personally, I'm not going to be buying a V1 or a V3 to find out which is best. I did toy with the idea of buying a V1 before I bought my second V2, but decided against it. The real reason I wanted two V2's was spare parts, lol. Just in case one of them blows up, or I goof up one of them when I finally get around to modding. Or in case the PS takes a dump, etc. In retrospect, I probably should have gone for something different. On the bright side, at least it wasn't an expensive mistake.


 
  
 AFAIK the only difference between the V1 and V2 are the tubes familys. Generally speaking 6 series tubes are more expensive, i cant speak for which sounds better as i've only ever used the 12 series.
  
 The same basic circuit was used in amps made by Indeed and Little-Bear, the latest versions of each have a switch to select between 6 and 12 series of tubes opening up a lot more options. (Indeed G2 / Little-Bear P-1). The P-1 was being auctioned off on ebay recently, i picked one up for $20.  The latest version of these amps is currently the Indeed G3, though i expect Little-Bear will release their version shortly.


----------



## arcorob

*NEVER discount El Cheapo*...LOL
  
 The Bravo II is El Cheapo and works very well and the ability of a 12AU7 to truly define a colored sound is awesome. But why not discount El Cheapo ? Because I have found a number of Audio products in the El Cheapo category that blow away the competition costing several times more..known, reviewed name brands that truly SUCK in comparison.
  
 For example, I did an extensive search/buy/try on phono stages. All the usual suspects up to the $300 range. NONE of them beat the ART DJ Pre II which is $50 at amazon. Side by side comparisons, needle drops, etc. Then took it a step further and ran it on straight DC (battery power) eliminating the wall wart. phenomenal for the price. I finally moved to the Phonomena II ($600) which beat it hands down and also supported MC...But for the average buyer getting pointed to Cambridge or Music Hall, Clearaudio, etc. in the few hundred dollar range, they were throwing money away.
  
 Same with the AUNE T1 and the Bravo V2. Yes, there are MANY that blow these products away...but what is the price point ? I am biased though...Bought my Bravo II in a great bid for $69 so not even sure what it costs today.
  
 The moral of the story is - Its always good to check things out. If I had not seen this board I would not have found my AUNE and I love the little guy..lol
  
 Inside the $50 ART DJ Pre II...This is no toy


----------



## money4me247

@arcorob, sooo where's the bravo review? i think you just posted a review about ART DJ Pre II (zzZZZzz... wrong thread not interested)


----------



## money4me247

btw: I've read that for tube amps you can damage your amp/headphones if you don't do a secret ritual when powering on/off the amp... anyone have any more info about this? lol (specifically relating to the bravo v3)
  
 edit: secret ritual includes either pluggin or unplugging headphones or turning the volume to zero.


----------



## arcorob

LOL...Not meant to be a review actually...just a sample...
  
 Have to work on my Bravo II review...man, this site makes me work...


----------



## maxipad

I burnt myself once or twice on the heat sinks so they could be a fire hazard… but other than that it's a decent little amp, particularly if you balance the l/r for your tube.  Also be careful not to get metal in there.  I forget what I did but I somehow got mine to spark (I had it about 3 years ago… then sold it and moved on to a little dot Mkiii)  It was decently loud.  I had a V2 if anyone cares.  Tried it with AKG K702, Dennon D2000, Sony MDR-SA5000, HD800.


----------



## DefQon

@money4me:

Yes I'm being serious just,send me over the best beer your country has to offer and I'll send you my 339.


----------



## money4me247

defqon said:


> @money4me: Yes I'm being serious just,send me over the best beer your country has to offer and I'll send you my 339.


 
 hahah i would imagine you are still joking as the 339 is quite pricey... but on the off-chance you're not...
  
 pick your poison & i'll be happy to oblige:
http://beeradvocate.com/lists/top
http://www.mensjournal.com/expert-advice/the-24-best-beers-in-america-20121026
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/17/best-craft-beers-zymurgy-2013_n_3455737.html


----------



## HOWIE13

Error, Removed


----------



## HOWIE13

money4me247 said:


> is this a real offer? lol! i'll take you up on it!
> 
> another great option (IMO) to consider is garage 1217 tube amps! new project sunrise 3 out & project ember are both really highly reviewed
> http://www.garage1217.com/index.html


 
 OMG These Garage's are awesome. Can't find too much on how they sound, but you can adjust so many settings. Anyone heard any of these?


----------



## money4me247

howie13 said:


> OMG These Garage's are awesome. Can't find too much on how they sound, but you can adjust so many settings. Anyone heard any of these?


 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/675850/project-ember-review


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> ...
> 
> another great option (IMO) to consider is garage 1217 tube amps! new project sunrise 3 out & project ember are both really highly reviewed


 
  
 No. I'm sorry, going to have to disagree with you on this one.
  
 The cheapest garage amp assembled is $149. That's more than twice the price of a Bravo V2. The $99 kit is missing the chassis, power supply, and something else I think, and you need to put it together yourself. You'd need to spend money to finish the thing. I just don't see the advantage.
  
 The arguments about being able to roll more types of tubes? So what? If you really are going to spend tons of money rolling every type of tube know to mankind, then you don't want to be spending money on these amps anyway. You're better off spending your money on a better amp.
  
 The other kits are more expensive, some of them are more expensive than the Bottlehead Crack. That's just not worth the money.
  
 If you're going to be putting together a kit, I think the kit ought to come with everything you need. When you start picking the options for the garage amps that include everything you need, you quickly find they get pricey. Near as I can tell, they cost more than amps with a better reputation.
  
 I've become rather tired of people advertising garage amps in this thread. The whole point of buying a Bravo amp is that you're on a budget, and want a budget amp. Most folks prefer their gear already assembled. Yeah, there are downsides to the Bravo gear, but most people know that going in. There are other threads to discuss garage amps.


----------



## money4me247

umustbkidn said:


> No. I'm sorry, going to have to disagree with you on this one. The cheapest garage amp assembled is $149. That's more than twice the price of a Bravo V2. The $99 kit is missing the chassis, power supply, and something else I think, and you need to put it together yourself. You'd need to spend money to finish the thing. I just don't see the advantage. The arguments about being able to roll more types of tubes? So what? If you really are going to spend tons of money rolling every type of tube know to mankind, then you don't want to be spending money on these amps anyway. You're better off spending your money on a better amp. The other kits are more expensive, some of them are more expensive than the Bottlehead Crack. That's just not worth the money. If you're going to be putting together a kit, I think the kit ought to come with everything you need. When you start picking the options for the garage amps that include everything you need, you quickly find they get pricey. Near as I can tell, they cost more than amps with a better reputation. I've become rather tired of people advertising garage amps in this thread. The whole point of buying a Bravo amp is that you're on a budget, and want a budget amp. Most folks prefer their gear already assembled. Yeah, there are downsides to the Bravo gear, but most people know that going in. There are other threads to discuss garage amps.


 
@UmustBKidn, hahah. mmm well, the garage1217 amps share a lot of design clues, so that's why they get brought up. obviously, the garage1217 tube amps are pricier, more high-end gear compared to bravo's entry-level budget amps. from what i've read though the garage1217 punches at a much higher weight-class than its price suggests as there are quite a few reviews out there that have them comparing favorable to competitors at a much higher price bracket. so in that sense they are kinda similar to the bravo tube amps offering more value for your money. heh.
  
 hahah... i've actually grown quite uncomfortable going by brand-name & popularity for an indicator of quality. i have found that the more popular/recommended options are often simply the more well-known products, but if you do a little research, you can find a lot of hidden gems that outperform more well-known products at a lower price point. that's how I found the bravo tube amps (you won't have anyone here at head-fi throw you that recommendation). the garage1217's $100-300 tube amps may seem pricey compared to bravo's $100 offerings, but when you hear them being compared to $400-1,000+ tube amps, you'll see that their price is quite reasonable for their performance if you are comfortable stepping away from the bigger-brand-name gear.
  
 I feel like people who have Bravo amps are really just people interested in tube amps, so it's always cool to hear about other more obscure tube amp options. sorry if the side-discussion is annoying you, but i think it's always fun to hear about new products!  cheers.


----------



## davei1

mcandmar said:


> AFAIK the only difference between the V1 and V2 are the tubes familys. Generally speaking 6 series tubes are more expensive, i cant speak for which sounds better as i've only ever used the 12 series.
> 
> The same basic circuit was used in amps made by Indeed and Little-Bear, the latest versions of each have a switch to select between 6 and 12 series of tubes opening up a lot more options. (Indeed G2 / Little-Bear P-1). The P-1 was being auctioned off on ebay recently, i picked one up for $20.  The latest version of these amps is currently the Indeed G3, though i expect Little-Bear will release their version shortly.


 
 I landed a Little-Bear P-1 also...First thing I did was ditch the Chinese 12AU7 and replaced it with a Electro-Harmonix 6922EH with Balanced Triodes ($13)...That got the sound levels right and left
 correct and gave a nice improvement in the audio (added bass and more full sound)...Then the big problem with the provided cheap power supply...I got lucky and landed a 24VDC regulated power supply on Ebay for under $20...That got rid of all HUM...It's now dead quiet even if I turn it up well beyond what I'd be able to use it at...What a great little amp now...So I have like a total of $60
 in it with all the upgrades...I removed the graphic and name from the plexiglas using a product called "Goof-Off" I already had...And then buffed the plexiglas clear...Very nice little amp....
  
 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/davei42261/100_0401_zpsbc31b453.jpg
  
 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/davei42261/100_0395_zps5c9e7be0.jpg


----------



## HOWIE13

money4me247 said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/675850/project-ember-review


 
 Thanks for the link-don't know whether I would prefer the automatic settings of the Ember or playing around with the manual settings of the other Garage Amps. Probably wouldn't have much time to relax to the music with these amps-so many things to fiddle with!


----------



## davei1

Once you improve the things that need it there's no fiddling to them...Set the volume on the Amp at a level that is slightly above what the max you would normally
 use and then control volume further with whatever device you are using...In my case the computer...Sound is great...Way better than just plugging headphones directly into
 my FIIO E10 DAC (I use the FIIO E10 to pass audio from the computer to another FIIO Fiber converter DAC at the TV...I use the COAX OUT from the E10
 to the COAX IN of the FIIO fiber converter at the TV. The FIIO fiber converter has a switch on it so I can switch between the Coax Digital signal coming from
 my computer to the Optical output coming from my TV then it goes from the Fiber Converter to the P-1 Tube amp via RCA output.
 Works great. Using Audio Technica WS-99 headphones...VERY nice sound and like I said a lot better sound than just
 plugging directly into the E10 DAC directly at the computer. I like mine so much after I upgraded the power supply and tube that I will buy another should it fail in the future.


----------



## HOWIE13

davei1 said:


> Once you improve the things that need it there's no fiddling to them...Set the volume on the Amp at a level that is slightly above what the max you would normally
> use and then control volume further with whatever device you are using...In my case the computer...Sound is great...Way better than just plugging headphones directly into
> my FIIO E10 DAC (I use the FIIO E10 to pass audio from the computer to another FIIO Fiber converter DAC at the TV...I use the COAX OUT from the E10
> to the COAX IN of the FIIO fiber converter at the TV. The FIIO fiber converter has a switch on it so I can switch between the Coax Digital signal coming from
> ...


 
 That's neat. I only have one source, a CD player to an M-DAC, which is great to control as it has a remote with which I can even alter the channel balance from my armchair!
 I think the M-DAC should suit the Garages as it gives out a clear, clean sound.
 Problem for me with the Garages is the extra $100 import duty and taxes. I wish they could be bought from Europe as well as the States.


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> @UmustBKidn, hahah. mmm well, the garage1217 amps share a lot of design clues, so that's why they get brought up. obviously, the garage1217 tube amps are pricier, more high-end gear compared to bravo's entry-level budget amps. *from what i've read though ...*


 
  
 Well, there you have it. You've only _*read *_about the garage amps, yet here you are throwing them in my face, in the Bravo thread. That's what I'm tired of. There used to be a guy reading this thread that would reply to every post and say "Oh but if you just go over here and try this amp, its soooo much better" blah blah blah. The guy who ran the company even had the nerve to come in here one day and start slamming the Bravo amps.
  
 Phooey.
  
 This website is FILLED with amps that are better than the Bravo's. I honestly don't care how good anyone _*thinks *_they are (since you don't actually _*know *_how good they are, you are just one more guy speculating). _What I care about is that you're not using this thread to discuss the Bravo amps._ Please, find a thread for one of the other 99% of the amps on this website and discuss them in that thread. Don't come in here to discuss them, and don't keep telling people how good they are, because all you're doing is advertising for them. I will never, ever buy one of those amps, because they are simply not worth it, and I'm just that sick of hearing about them.
  
 There are plenty of other threads to discuss the plethora of other, "better" amps. Please, go there, and discuss them, and leave us Bravo owners to our chosen gear. Thank you.


----------



## money4me247

lol @UmustBKidn, you need to seriously chill out. you're getting offended when no offense is intended.
  
 i've never bashed the bravo tube amp or said they were inferior to anything else. i think they are a great steal for their value. i'm not affiliated w/ anyone or advertising anything. just saw a cool tube amp that performs well & thought i would share it. there are people here who are interested in trying new things lol. i would hope other bravo owners don't feel like the mention of any other equipment is a crime (esp when no criticism or comparisons where made) lol
  
 dude, this is supposed to be a fun hobby & great community. no need to get so testy.


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> lol @UmustBKidn, you need to seriously chill out. you're getting offended when no offense is intended.
> 
> i've never bashed the bravo tube amp or said they were inferior to anything else. i think they are a great steal for their value. i'm not affiliated w/ anyone or advertising anything. just saw a cool tube amp that performs well & thought i would share it. there are people here who are interested in trying new things lol. i would hope other bravo owners don't feel like the mention of any other equipment is a crime (esp when no criticism or comparisons where made) lol
> 
> dude, this is supposed to be a fun hobby & great community. no need to get so testy.


 
  
 Perhaps it seems that way. I'm not sure how long you've been reading this thread, but I've been on it for a while. The bravo-bashing got to be almost daily some months ago, and I got tired of it. Sorry, but I'm still tired of it.
  
 The whole sales pitch of the garage amps is based upon bashing gear like little bear and bravo amps. And that quite frankly is their sales pitch: its a tube amp just like X and Y that performs better than X and Y. I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard that line in this thread. You just did it again. It's really not necessary for you to direct other people to their gear or their website in this thread, because it's been done before. Excessively, in my opinion. Yes, there is other gear. Yes, there is better gear. But this is the Bravo thread. Advertising new gear belongs in another forum. Not this one.
  
 A couple excerpts from the Forum rules and Posting Guidelines may be useful to understand why I feel the way I do...
  
_- We ask that you please make a concerted effort to post in the appropriate forums._
  
_- Curb any urge you may have to flippantly dismiss someone's opinion._
  
_- Please don't recommend equipment you don't own or otherwise don't have a reasonable amount of familiarity with. _
  
_- Likewise, please avoid trashing equipment you haven't used or aren't familiar with._
  
_- A Member of the Trade may not post negative comments about products/services of competitors._
  
_- A Member of the Trade may not post announcements, advertisements, sales information or the like about a product he makes or sells in the Main Forums, or via Private Messaging, unless pre-approved by the site's administrators._
  
_- Shilling, which is posting about products one is affiliated with under the guise/profile of a non-affiliated person, is extremely frowned upon by the moderators and admins of Head-Fi, and may result in a permanent ban from Head-Fi._
  
 So while it seems like I'm being a little testy, to use your word, I'm just trying to obey the rules, and stick to the topic of this thread. Peace.


----------



## White Lotus




----------



## money4me247

umustbkidn said:


> A couple excerpts from the Forum rules and Posting Guidelines may be useful to understand why I feel the way I do...
> 
> _- We ask that you please make a concerted effort to post in the appropriate forums._
> *- Curb any urge you may have to flippantly dismiss someone's opinion.*
> ...


 
 lol. 'a little testy' was putting it kindly.
  
 I'm not affiliated with anyone or a member of the trade & my post about the other tube amp was in response to someone else's post. I do own a Bravo V3 tube amp and I haven't posted anything negative about it at all. I didn't really post anything advertisy about the other amp except that I personally thought it looked cool like the bravo amp. Just because you got annoyed at some other people's posts that offended you, doesn't mean you should be misdirecting your anger at me. I wasn't even talking to you and I am definitely not interested in arguing w/ you.
  
 Everything I've written here has been very respectful and nice, but if you think I'm breaking any rules, by all means flag the post or whatever. I am not interested in hearing the opinions of some random guy butting in my conversations and attacking me for things I totally did not do.
  
 edit: And yes, I am glad you got the chance to reread the rules of the forums.


----------



## money4me247

white lotus said:


>


 
 Note: On the Bravo V3, the white & red RCA inputs are miscolored / swapped! The white input is actually the right channel and the red input is for the left.


----------



## White Lotus

money4me247 said:


> Note: On the Bravo V3, the white & red RCA inputs are miscolored / swapped! The white input is actually the right channel and the red input is for the left.




I noticed this the other day.. Odd!


----------



## HOWIE13

white lotus said:


> I noticed this the other day.. Odd!


 
 Yes, several leads I've recently bought which have originated from the Far East have the conventional channel colours reversed. I think it's a Chinese thing- they don't follow Western convention in this respect but even in the UK some lead manufacturers are reversing the colours too.


----------



## Currawong

money4me247 said:


> from what i've read though


 
  
 Just to let you know, "from what I've read" is not as good as "in my experience". It's fair enough to say that you're interested in buying an amp because of the favourable impressions, but going only by what you've read to discuss the merits or detriments of a product is like kids discussing whether a Ferrari or Lambo is faster. I think people would rather read actual impressions here, since people are intending to spend their money on these things.


----------



## Evshrug

. Money4me has been enjoying his Bravo v3, so what if he's come to know this thread as his current home (cuz of his current gear) and is considering his next steps, that doesn't take away from the fact that he liked the bravo. No conflict against the Bravo amps in that.


----------



## money4me247

evshrug said:


> . Money4me has been enjoying his Bravo v3, so what if he's come to know this thread as his current home (cuz of his current gear) and is considering his next steps, that doesn't take away from the fact that he liked the bravo. No conflict against the Bravo amps in that.


 
 hahaah word!!! that's exactly how i feel. I really love my bravo v3 & i wld be content staying on my current gear set. i def highly recommend bravo amps for someone looking to try tubes. of course, with this kinda hobby, you are always kinda itching to try something new, so it's always nice to hear other bravo owners' opinion on other equipment. i really feel comfortable in this thread too b/c i feel like people interested in this kind of inexpensive non-fancy-brand-name equipment are just looking for good valueerformance, so I would really trust advice/impressions of everyone else here as we have similar equipment background =)
  
 <3 head-fi community


----------



## Evshrug

money4me247 said:


> I feel like people interested in this kind of inexpensive, non-fancy-brand-name equipment are just looking for good valueerformance...
> 
> <3 head-fi community



Sounds like you understand where UmustBKidn is coming from too... Sometimes, in the dark of winter, it's hard to unwind, look at things without coloring them from recent experiences, and especially online understand the intent behind someone's words.

I intended to get a Bravo or Indeed for a long time, and learn how to solder for myself to install the different mods people have done with this amp. Instead, I bought a hybrid that had been upgraded for me. If I didn't have the higher budget, I would've bought an Indeed G3 like I originally planned when I found this thread.


----------



## HOWIE13

Exactly! I also love my Bravo 3 though it's nice to learn about other tube amps but comparisons should always be A/B, in real life.
 I have tried so many different tubes that I fear that some time soon the socket will break and I will then need to buy another Bravo as I believe it's generally not easy to change the socket.


----------



## ostewart

Anyone know if changing the caps in the Ocean would make any difference, or just leave it be?

I did change the LED as it was super bright stock, now using green with nail polish coating to dim it.

More photos:


----------



## razor5cl

I hope to pick one of these up soon. This'll be my first tube amp, and I have a few questions. How long does it take to warm up, and how hot does it get? I hope that it gets really hot and takes a long time to warm up, just for that novelty factor.


----------



## ostewart

Not long to warm up. I leave mine a couple of minutes. The ocean does get hot, but it gets to a certain toasty temperature (wouldn't burn) and doesn't change. I can leave it on for hours and not worry about burning the house down.


----------



## ostewart

I was thinking of changing the MOSFETs to IRL 510's and the caps to 35v 2200uf, or just 25v 2200uf, nichicon. Not sure what difference to expect if any.


----------



## razor5cl

Might make a nice hand warmer. Also, where can I get one at a reasonable price in the UK? Amazon has the V1 for like £50 and direct from them the V1 Deluxe is roughly the same when converted from dollars, although I've heard people getting them for £30.


----------



## ostewart

EBay is worth a look, there are plenty on there.


----------



## razor5cl

Also, what exactly is the difference between the three models in terms of SQ? I'm using DT990 Pros.


----------



## ostewart

Dont really know. I know that the ocean powers the DT990 easily. The Ocean is completely closed in design whereas the V1/V3 only have some plexiglass type casing.


----------



## razor5cl

Yeah I prefer the open look.


----------



## HOWIE13

razor5cl said:


> I hope to pick one of these up soon. This'll be my first tube amp, and I have a few questions. How long does it take to warm up, and how hot does it get? I hope that it gets really hot and takes a long time to warm up, just for that novelty factor.


 
 As far as the V3 is concerned, after about 5-10 minutes the sound has developed nicely. However, the sound continues to improve for a variable time, depending on the tube. Most tubes reach their 'sweet spot', I think it's called, in about 30-60 mins but I have a couple of Mullards which improve up to nearly three hours. .
 Except for a small area at the sides, it doesn't get particularly hot. The tube doesn't get very hot either.


----------



## money4me247

howie13 said:


> As far as the V3 is concerned, after about 5-10 minutes the sound has developed nicely. However, the sound continues to improve for a variable time, depending on the tube. Most tubes reach their 'sweet spot', I think it's called, in about 30-60 mins but I have a couple of Mullards which improve up to nearly three hours. .
> Except for a small area at the sides, it doesn't get particularly hot. The tube doesn't get very hot either.


 
 interesting. i've actually never really paid attention... just kinda plug in & play lol.
  
 is the general consensus that the sound improves after the tubes warm up for a while? what kinds of specific improvements of sound would you hear? I'm going to have to pay attention next time.


----------



## arcorob

I have several pieces of tube gear..the primary being the main power amp (3 input tubes 8 output driver tubes)....I always turn it on ahead of time because it comes into its own 20-30 minutes after warm up. That is a general rule of thumb fro broken in tubes. even tube receivers (Old Fisher, Scott, etc,) always needed a significant warm up.
  
 If you come home and know your going to listen to music, turn your gear on when you walk through the door and let them get warm. And if you stop listening but are going to go back, leave them on...Just don't ever leave tube equipment on and leave the house...tube amps can cause fires


----------



## HOWIE13

money4me247 said:


> interesting. i've actually never really paid attention... just kinda plug in & play lol.
> 
> is the general consensus that the sound improves after the tubes warm up for a while? what kinds of specific improvements of sound would you hear? I'm going to have to pay attention next time.


----------



## HOWIE13

howie13 said:


>


 
  Money4me247.
  
 Maybe I shouldn't tell you and then you won't have any pre-conceived ideas LOL!  So if you want to know in advance of testing read on-
  
 Immediately after switching on I hear nothing for about 20-30 seconds, then the sound is a bit thin with lack of bass, then it just comes right after a few more minutes. It's a consistent thing, never varies.
 A friend of mine has a large, very expensive, valve amp driving large room speakers and it's the same. I guess it is a valve thing. He reckons his takes about 20 minutes.


----------



## UmustBKidn

ostewart said:


> I was thinking of changing the MOSFETs to IRL 510's and the caps to 35v 2200uf, or just 25v 2200uf, nichicon. Not sure what difference to expect if any.


 
  
 To my knowledge all 3 are the same basic design. The difference being, 6922 tubes in the V1 and V3, 12AU7 for the V2, and the 3 band EQ in the V3. Early on I remember someone stating on this thread that the V2's were superior to the V1's and replacement tubes were easier/cheaper to come by (which is why I chose the V2).
  
 So that being said, the same mods discussed earlier in this thread and elsewhere _should _work for any version. I wish Judge Buff was reading this, he could probably tell you for sure.
  
 I've received my parts from Mouser. I've chosen to replace a handful of the most recommended items from this thread on RockGrotto.ProBoards.com. Basically, all 4 of the IC's, the input and output caps, and changing the bias resistor to a potentiometer. When I'm done, I am going to write a review of the modified V2 vs the stock V2 (using some Mullard d-getter tubes that are worth more than the amps lol).
  
 By all accounts, I should be able to expect a extended high end response, and punchier bass, at least. I have no preconceived notions though, so I am trying to keep an open mind.


----------



## ostewart

Cool, thanks for the detailed answer.

I will look at modding mine in the future, the cost is not much to replace the main caps and MOSFETs.

I will also look at a Sylvania tube for it, 12AU7.


----------



## UmustBKidn

razor5cl said:


> I hope to pick one of these up soon. This'll be my first tube amp, and I have a few questions. How long does it take to warm up, and how hot does it get? I hope that it gets really hot and takes a long time to warm up, just for that novelty factor.


 
  
 1) The output is muted when you first turn it on. It will come alive after about 10-15 seconds. As others have said, optimal performance will occur after full warmup (which is probably dependent on your tube). I have not attempted to time when that happens. These preamp tubes do not get hot to the touch (at least, the V2 doesn't), so there really isn't going to be a whole lot of warmup time (no more than a few minutes at best). I do not personally notice any significant difference between turn on performance and performance after a period of time. Both of my V2's behave the same way.
  
 2) In stock form, the heat sinks for the IC's are too hot to touch. I cool mine with a small USB powered fan, which keeps it cool enough to touch. Some people have reported that heat affects the longevity of this device, so I have chosen to cool mine (at the possible risk of not allowing the tube to heat up fully). Again, these tubes do not run hot, so a bit of cooling really should not affect their performance.
  
 The capacitors I am going to put in mine after modding will be too tall for the stock top plate. At this point, I am planning on leaving the top plate off altogether. One idea I have is to replace the standoffs with longer items, and mount my cooling fan facing down over the top of the whole assembly, using the standoffs. Or I may just use a screen with longer standoffs, and leave the cooling fan separate. I guess it depends on how industrious I feel at the time hah.


----------



## UmustBKidn

ostewart said:


> Cool, thanks for the detailed answer.
> 
> I will look at modding mine in the future, the cost is not much to replace the main caps and MOSFETs.
> 
> I will also look at a Sylvania tube for it, 12AU7.


 
  
 Personally, I have found that Mullard tubes are the best choice. I don't keep a d-getter Mullard at my work setup, just in case someone knows what it is (on that setup, I use a cheaper o-getter Mullard that I was lucky enough to buy cheaply, because it's a bit low testing).
  
 Just to be complete, I have also tried Telefunkens, Amerex/Mullards, Tung-Sol tubes, and a couple dozen different American vintage tubes. Yes, I know, I've spent waaaaay too much money on 12AU7's LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyhow, for my gear, the Mullards seem to result in the best SQ. As I type this, I'm listening to music on my laptop, driving a Schiit Modi, into a Bravo V2 with a d-getter Mullard, driving my Beyerdynamic DT770 - 250 ohm cans. This has become my favorite setup (much as I hate to sideline my Schiit Magni).


----------



## ostewart

Thanks, I'll look into getting a Millard maybe then 

I use my ocean with German Meastro GMP-400 and they pair so well together.


----------



## UmustBKidn

ostewart said:


> Thanks, I'll look into getting a Millard maybe then
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 A suggestion: The late 50's Heath-branded Mullards are a very good deal. They use an o-getter, but they can also be purchased for $35 or so on eBay (vs. $99 for a d-getter). I once bought a pair of them for $50, and they are quite nice for the money.


----------



## ostewart

More photos, experimenting with long exposure 

The light one, I only flashed a torch quickly whilst taking the PIC so you still get the glow.


----------



## Evshrug

Nice photos! I think the second one is particularly nice, obviously that's not what you'd see with the naked eye BUT that does capture what we'd want to see 


UmustBKiddin,
For what it's worth, Judge Buff had at least two amps, and I think one of them was a modded inDeed G3 which could switch between 6DJ8 variant tubes and 12au7 variant tubes. The different tubes have different heater voltages, the rest of the circuit can be modded.


----------



## razor5cl

I agree, those pics are nice for showing off to your friends what tube amps look like. Also, do you think the top and bottom transparent plates can be painted?


----------



## Evshrug

razor5cl said:


> I agree, those pics are nice for showing off to your friends what tube amps look like. Also, do you think the top and bottom transparent plates can be painted?



You mean the clear acrylic plastic on the other models? Uuuuh... sure I guess, but I'm not sure what paint I'd suggest, once acrylic paint dries it might crack from the heat of the amp.


----------



## stupidmop

I recased my bravo v2 cuz interfrrence. Pick any color aluminum u like  I dont use it much anymore since i finished my bottlehead crack and (gasp) got a sunrise II


----------



## razor5cl

Oh yeah, the heat won't play nice with the paint, should have thought of that.


----------



## Evshrug

razor5cl said:


> Oh yeah, the heat won't play nice with the paint, should have thought of that.



Maybe like a non-flammable lacquer or something? Could be cool.


----------



## chinti

hi everyone, i just order a bravo v2, going to pair it with my akg k240 mkii. just wondering what tube should i change to have better bass? im using laptop and is there anyway i can pair my fiio e10 with bravo v2 as well?


----------



## razor5cl

You can use the line out on the E10 into the 3.5mm or RCA inputs of the Bravo V2.


----------



## stupidmop

RCA black plates have the most slam and impact. Mullards have a good low end, depends on type.


----------



## chinti

stupidmop said:


> RCA black plates have the most slam and impact. Mullards have a good low end, depends on type.


 
 i ordered a mullard from ebay awhile ago, both bravo v2 and mullard will arrive in 2 days. now all i need is know what type of cable i need to connect my fiio e10 to bravo v2 and laptop.


razor5cl said:


> You can use the line out on the E10 into the 3.5mm or RCA inputs of the Bravo V2.


 
 so i only need use the cable provided by bravo v2 to connect my fiio e10 n then fiio e10 cable to my laptop?


----------



## stupidmop

I would get a Modi or different sound card


----------



## chinti

i would skip this until i have enough saving first, for now just my fiio e10 and bravo v2


----------



## razor5cl

You need a 3.5mm male to 3.5mm or RCA male, as I don't think Bravo Audio gives you cables. Other than that, you also need the USB cable that came with the E10 for digital output from your laptop.


----------



## chinti

the bravo v2 include the following as listed on amazon

Parallel 3.5mm and RCA stereo inputs


----------



## razor5cl

Yeah, INPUTS. That means the jacks on the back.


----------



## UmustBKidn

The Fiio E10 has a USB input, and a Coaxial or line output on the back panel:
  

 So you need a USB cable to hook it to your computer.
  
 You have a couple ways to hook it to the Bravo. The Bravo's inputs are via either two RCA inputs, or one 3.5mm headphone jack. It appears from this photo that your line out on the Fiio is a 3.5mm jack. So I guess the easiest thing to do would be to get a 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable. Or, you could get a Coaxial to RCA cable and hook it up that way. Or you could get a 3.5mm to RCA cable. Whether any of those options is better than the other, is an open question.


----------



## chinti

is this the correct cable i need to get?
  
http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-3-5mm-Male-2-Male-Adapter/dp/B004YEBK66/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389793486&sr=8-1&keywords=3.5mm+male+to+rca
  
 or 
  
http://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Plated-3-5mm-Stereo/dp/B00ESM3EIQ/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1389793409&sr=8-8&keywords=coaxial+to+rca+male+cable


----------



## ostewart

yes those cables will work


----------



## ostewart

Ocean review:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/700676/review-bravo-audio-ocean-class-a-valve-headphone-amp-budget-brilliance


----------



## UmustBKidn

ostewart said:


> Ocean review:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/700676/review-bravo-audio-ocean-class-a-valve-headphone-amp-budget-brilliance


 
  
 Good job, nice review! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I would be very interested in hearing your inputs on mods, if/when you perform them. The Mosfets should be a simple matter; replacing the caps will be more challenging (staying inside that very cute chassis). I wonder if they use the same parts as the V2's.
  
 I have the parts for modding one of my V2's now, but due to work responsibilities I haven't had the time yet. Hopefully by the end of the month. I went with the recommendations on the rockgrotto.proboards.com thread, and the caps are HUGE. Lol. I am fully expecting to have to either drill big holes to accommodate them, or leave the top plate off entirely. I'm actually leaning towards leaving it off entirely, to help with cooling.
  
 Another reason I have two V2's is so I can mod one, and compare it to the original.


----------



## ostewart

It will be great to hear your opinion on modding too.
  
 I will probably only mod it next month when i have some money


----------



## chinti

hey guys, my bravo v2 have finally arrive together with the cable. i tested it with my fiio e10 and wow, huge different compare to only using fiio e10, the sound is super sweet i almost cry out of tears. i just sold couple of my old books and now i have a couple hundred bucks to spare, can anyone recommend me some good dac to pair with bravo v2? also include all the cable that i need to purchase together with the dac. 
  
 im currently checking out schiit modi


----------



## razor5cl

I think ODAC might be a good choice as well although I haven't heard it personally.


----------



## razor5cl

Also, which cable did you get in the end?


----------



## chinti

i just got this normal cable. if i get modi, what cable should i need as i look at the photo for modi, it only have rca input. so rca to rca for connecting modi to my bravo v2?
  
http://schiit.com/products/pyst-cables
  
http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-3-5mm-Male-2-Male-Adapter/dp/B004YEBK66/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389793486&sr=8-1&keywords=3.5mm+male+to+rca


----------



## razor5cl

If you get Modi you'd need rca to rca, if you can afford it get the Pyst as they seem a little better built but you should be fine with Monoprice or similar. If you get ODAC I believe it has a 3.5mm output so you should be fine.

EDIT: The cable you have should be fine as you can plug the 3.5mm end into the Bravo and the RCA into the DAC.


----------



## chinti

i think im getting the modi and the pyst rca cable, how bout the usb cable? it doesnt seems like it come with one
  
 edit: ok i decided i will order modi, pyst rca and usb cable. what else am i missing? sorry i kinda noob in this cable stuff.
 current setup with AKG k240 MKii, waiting my Q701 to arrive.


----------



## razor5cl

That should be it, power cables are included.


----------



## chinti

alright thanks for the help. still waiting for my mullard tube as well.


----------



## razor5cl

No problem. I'm still waiting for my Bravo V2 to leave the US.


----------



## UmustBKidn

chinti said:


> hey guys, my bravo v2 have finally arrive together with the cable. i tested it with my fiio e10 and wow, huge different compare to only using fiio e10, the sound is super sweet i almost cry out of tears. i just sold couple of my old books and now i have a couple hundred bucks to spare, can anyone recommend me some good dac to pair with bravo v2? also include all the cable that i need to purchase together with the dac.
> 
> im currently checking out schiit modi


 
  
 Congrats! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I have used mine with both the Schiit Modi and the Pure i-20. You can read my impressions of the combination in this review.
  
 I think the Schiit Modi is a no brainer. Until the Modi came out, a lot of people (in Budget-Fi land) used the ODAC. I have never personally tried the ODAC, but the few posts I've read where people have compared the two, seemed to indicate the Modi was at least equal to, if not better (and cheaper).
  
 As for cables, you'll need a USB cable like this one, and an RCA cable like this one. I don't necessarily endorse either of those particular cables - that's just the type of connectors you'll need.


----------



## UmustBKidn

chinti said:


> alright thanks for the help. still waiting for my mullard tube as well.


 
  
 Oooo.. what type of Mullard did you get?


----------



## White Lotus

Just so you guys know, I am letting go of my own V3 on the FS/FT forums.


----------



## razor5cl

I think the advantage of the ODAC is that you can get it in the same enclosure as the O2, so if you want one of those as well(even for a second amp) it is more convenient. The Modi looks cooler though. The problem in the UK is that the Schiit official dealer sells it for £99 plus shipping.


----------



## chinti

i got this mullard, im still not sure bout different tube and the quality
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231133661138?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## money4me247

chinti said:


> i got this mullard, im still not sure bout different tube and the quality
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/231133661138?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


 
 hmmm interesting. anyone here have suggestions of cool tubes to try for the V3? I think I would like darker tubes  heh


----------



## razor5cl

Why did you buy 2?


----------



## UmustBKidn

chinti said:


> i got this mullard, im still not sure bout different tube and the quality
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/231133661138?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


 
  
 The 60's vintage rebranded Mullards are decent tubes. That is a fair price for them. I've also used that seller in the past, and they are reliable (at least for me).
  
 Those tubes will be a significant improvement over the stock tubes. I think you will enjoy the sound!


----------



## ostewart

My Ocean has developed some nasty crackling 
  
 Not sure if it's the tube, or the caps or whatever 
  
 I was listening to it the other day, as usual and it suddenly started crackling. It used to be only when the amp warmed up, not it is constant.
  
 It still plays music, but the crackling is pretty bad.


----------



## razor5cl

Try changing the tube and checking your cables etc.


----------



## sixly

I'm looking to replace the stock tube in my V2, what suggestions would you have.  I've heard good things about the *Groove Tubes ST-12AU7 Preamp Tube Silver *but I frankly know nothing about it.


----------



## money4me247

ostewart said:


> My Ocean has developed some nasty crackling
> 
> Not sure if it's the tube, or the caps or whatever
> 
> ...


 
 is it when your smartphone is nearby? i dont think the bravo amps are well-shielded.


----------



## ostewart

Tried moving my mobile away from the amp, no difference. It came out of nowhere the other day. Thinking it may be the tube, as the filaments take a while to start glowing, before they would come on pretty much instantly. And the crackling has got worse.


----------



## sixly

My bravo gets a buzz whenever I get an incoming txt even if the phone is some distance away.  It actually starts maybe 1.5 seconds before the phone actually alerts me of the new message so who knows.  Also is it possible it could be your headphones?  Maybe try plugging them directly into the source?


----------



## ostewart

It is the amp, as it was working fine before. Tried different pairs, even with my mobile far away, volume turned right down.

So I have a feeling its the tube, I don't have a spare on hand unfortunately, will get one soon.

Henry from Bravo thinks it may be the tube, or the power supply.


----------



## UmustBKidn

sixly said:


> I'm looking to replace the stock tube in my V2, what suggestions would you have.  I've heard good things about the *Groove Tubes ST-12AU7 Preamp Tube Silver *but I frankly know nothing about it.


 
  
 There are some general impressions of different tubes with the Bravo V2 in this thread.
  
 I personally avoid using all new manufacture tubes. They sound crappy compared to any vintage tube. You can quote me on that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I honestly didn't know any better until I tried some vintage tubes. Then I realized just how tinny and thin sounding the stock tube sounds.
  
 You can get inexpensive vintage American made tubes from eBay for just about the same price as the newly made stuff, but the vintage tubes (of ANY kind) sound better. The older, the better (of course, you'll pay much more for really old tubes).
  
 There is of course the law of diminishing returns, especially with an inexpensive hybrid like the Bravo. Spending a pile of money on tubes for an amp that itself only costs you around $70 bucks does seem kind of silly. But considering that you'll pay $10-$15 bucks for a brand new Chinese or Russian tube, spending $10-$15 bucks for an old vintage RCA, Sylvania, etc. is perfectly reasonable. Yes, eBay is a bit riskier than Amazon.com. But it's improved a lot since I first started using it (a long long time ago).
  
 So. Yeah. Read the thread above, then go shopping on eBay for a couple old vintage American tubes. I suggest trying a couple, they are usually quite reasonable. You will find that each tube changes the character of sound in its own unique way.


----------



## sixly

Thanks man, will do.


----------



## UmustBKidn

sixly said:


> Thanks man, will do.


 
  
 As long as we're at it, I should mention that the 12AU7 has quite a few plug-in substitutes, that do not require any rewiring. Brent Jesse's website has a nice list of the common 12AU7 plug-in substitutes. I have personally tried the 5963's, the 5814's, the ECC82's, and I think I have one 6189.
  
 I ran into a guy on eBay selling 5963 tubes for $2.50 each last summer. I bought a half dozen, cost me less than $20 including shipping. Amazing deal.
  
 Of the American tubes, the Tung-Sol's and the long black plate RCA or Raytheon tubes are all very nice sounding tubes (by long, I mean 17mm plates - the 14mm are considered "short" plates). If you find any of those, they are all worth the price. I picked up a long black plate Raytheon tube, 50's vintage, for $8 bucks. You just can't beat a deal like that. It's definitely worth shopping around on ebay.


----------



## chinti

hey guys, i just receive my mullard tube n try it but somehow the sound quality is worse than the stock tube tht came wit the bravo v2...i dn feel any power or anything at all, its lik there isnt any amp connected to the headphone...


----------



## razor5cl

Did you wait for it to warm up and burn it in before you tried it?


----------



## arcorob

chinti said:


> hey guys, i just receive my mullard tube n try it but somehow the sound quality is worse than the stock tube tht came wit the bravo v2...i dn feel any power or anything at all, its lik there isnt any amp connected to the headphone...


 

 Was this a new old stock tube ? 2 things come to mind
  
 1) Check that it does say 12AU7
 2) It might be a bad tube (spent)
  
 Depending on the Mullard (especially Blackburn plant) it should sound amazing


----------



## chinti

i waited for 30min, i got two, one is label 77/79 and one is label 79/79, the 79/79 one is worse than the stock tube while the 77/79 is almost the same as the stock tube


----------



## chinti

it is 12AU7, how do i check whether is a bad tube or not?
 i got it here
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/231133661138?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## ostewart

I bought this one, should arrive tomorrow or Monday.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181296321686?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## UmustBKidn

chinti said:


> hey guys, i just receive my mullard tube n try it but somehow the sound quality is worse than the stock tube tht came wit the bravo v2...i dn feel any power or anything at all, its lik there isnt any amp connected to the headphone...


 
  
 Well, that certainly is out of character for a Mullard.
 I am curious, what kind of headphones are you using? There isn't anything listed in your profile.
  
 Regardless of whom you purchase a vintage tube from, one unknown is how long it's been, since the tube was regularly used. Letting it run for a half hour is a good first step, but it might take a bit longer before it sounds better. Simply running it on a tube tester will tell you how good the tube is, but it isn't going to really exercise the tube like regular use will do.
  
 Vacuum tubes are an interesting device. I spent 14-odd years of my life making very high-tech versions of vacuum tubes. They are finnicky, and their best performance is obtained by using them regularly, and often. Leaving them off for a prolonged period of time, can actually degrade their performance. You need to pick one of those tubes, and let it run for a while (meaning, days, at least) before you pass judgement on it. It may even take longer. There's no precise formula.
  
 You bought a pair of 1967 Hammond rebranded Mullards. They are the "short" plate variety (meaning they are unlikely to be microphonic, but they are not as good as the 17mm long plate variety). In my experience, rebranded tubes (of any kind) are not quite as good as the original brand (while that is a highly subjective statement, it has been generally true for the several dozen varieties I've tried). You're also using late 60's tubes, which just aren't as good as tubes made 10 years prior (but not nearly as expensive either).
  
 Two of these tubes for $35 bucks is a reasonable price for them. After you run them for a while (more than 30 minutes, perhaps more like several weeks), I would expect them to sound superior to the stock Shuguang crap that is shipped with the Bravo's. To me, the Shuguang tubes are thin, tinny, and shrill, compared to any vintage Mullard. But its difficult to compare a brand new tube that's been recently burned in, against a 45 year old tube that may have been sitting unused for decades.
  
 If you want the absolute top quality Mullards, you need to look for the late 50's vintage D-getter tubes, and you will pay easily $100 each for them. Sometimes more. The sound quality of those particular tubes is simply amazing. I own a couple of them, and I paid quite a bit of money for them (more than my Bravo's cost). But I don't think we need to go down that road. You have a decent pair of 67 vintage tubes. Pick one of them, put it in your Bravo, plug some cans in (anything will do), turn the thing on, and let it run for a good long while (days at least), then give it a listen.


----------



## UmustBKidn

ostewart said:


> I bought this one, should arrive tomorrow or Monday.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181296321686?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


 
  
 That is an oddball tube. There is no Mullard branding on the tube. The only thing that gives it a hint of being a Mullard is the date code. A date code of B2K3 could either be a 1962 or a 1972 tube. Most 1962 tubes I've seen still have a distinct Mullard badge on them. This tube has nothing but ECC82 on it. So I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you bought.
  
 There are an awful lot of sellers on eBay who are all too willing to label their tubes as Mullards. Anything that is made in Great Britain seems to warrant the name Mullard, whether it was really made by them or not. I can't claim to be an expert on British tubes, but I've seen an awful lot of oddball tubes labeled as Mullards, simply because they seem to carry a similar sort of date code.
  
 It is definitely a short plate tube with the Gf2 design. 15 quid for that tube is probably a decent price, but again, it's not a 50's vintage D-getter Mullard. As I suggested to the other member, I would let it run for a good long while, before doing any critical listening. I am sure it will turn out to be better than the stock Shuguang tube.


----------



## ostewart

Yeah I got it because of the price really.
  
 Will see how it is.


----------



## money4me247

hey is there any comprehensive list of tube descriptions/pricing or what not somewhere on head-fi?


----------



## razor5cl

My V2 arrived today, but it has a US plug on it and I'm in the UK. I can't use an adapter as it'll burn out, so I'll have to find another power supply to use.


----------



## UmustBKidn

razor5cl said:


> My V2 arrived today, but it has a US plug on it and I'm in the UK. I can't use an adapter as it'll burn out, so I'll have to find another power supply to use.


 
  
 Take a close look at the writing on the side of the power supply. When I checked the description of these on eBay, the power supply is described thus:
  
*1 x Switching Power Supply Universal AC 100V-240V / 50~60Hz to 24V DC 1A output
 (Auto-Detect International Compatible) *
  
 I don't know if just using an adapter will work or not, but I guess you could just go out and buy a UK power supply that puts out 24 volts DC at 1 amp. If you do attempt the adapter, I would not plug it into the amplifier. I'd first check it with a voltmeter to make sure it's putting out the right voltage (and watch it for a while to make sure it doesn't make the Magic Smoke).


----------



## ostewart

You should just be able to replace the first section of the power supply wit a UK one £10 from maplin.


----------



## razor5cl

I'm gonna try with an adapter today or tomorrow, I think it'll work, as it says it takes 100-240v and the UK is 240v.


----------



## razor5cl

So, my V2 works fine with a US to UK mains adapter, no smoke. Out of the box it sounds good, bass seems a little less prevalent on my DT990 Pros and that's without any tube rolling or significant burn in. I did leave it to warm up though.


----------



## 8064r7

My Ocean arrived today.  Already noticing a good difference by unloading the amp duties from my DAC/AMP and letting the Ocean due its tube magic.


----------



## whiteshadow001

I'm new to tube rolling and I was wondering if the 12au7 tubes were the only tubes the V2 can use or can it use 12ax7's as well?


----------



## DefQon

whiteshadow001 said:


> I'm new to tube rolling and I was wondering if the 12au7 tubes were the only tubes the V2 can use or can it use 12ax7's as well?


 
 Doesn't take 12AT7 and 12AX7's. Yes they can work but the 12AU7 has the lowest gain of the triode family, then followed by the 12AT7 and then 12AX7 has the highest gain of all 3. It will overdrive the circuit and lead to distortion so it not a drop in replacement for this amp's circuitry. 12AU7 = ECC82 (European Prem's equivs) and a lot more, plenty of 12AU7's to be found. If you want you can buy an adaptor off ebay that will allow you to roll in 6SN7's.
  
 As with distinguishing Mullards, the first thing that gives away a Mullard tube, be it a proper re-issue or rebrand is a big O getter that flashes on startup, 4 pinched groves on top of the tube glass surface and a very nice, deep low end and natural sounding treble, mids can be a bit distant and Mullards tend to have a good low-end but laid back neutral mid, treble and non sibilant highs. Detail is there but not as good as the Holland factory Amperex's which also can have a flashing O getter and pinched groves on the top tube glass surface.
  
 If you want detail and awesome sauce soundstage, genuine and not cheap Telefunken's, Valvo, Philips and genuine Tesla's are what you should aim for.
  
 But I'd think it'd be absurd rolling $150+ tubes in a $50 amp.


----------



## arcorob

Def.
  
 I have to disagree (respectfully). Maybe its a system source thing but I have a Mullard 12AU7 long plate that is awesome in the Bravo. The reason I like it is because it has forward mids. To me, its the Amperex that are a bit too laid back. I also tried the RCA and GE black plates. They are VERY detailed but they had neutral to flat mids.
  
 Another good selection is the organ tubes (Baldwin, Hammond)...I forgot who makes them but they are very well made.
  
 Not a fan of the telefunken either. Very rolled off..smooth but at the sacrifice of detail.
  
 The Mullard normal grey plate is also a fine choice.
  
 Secret to the Mullards ? They MUST be authentic Blackburn plant. Not India or Canada. And preference is early 60's
  
 These would be great if it was just one for sale
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-1956-Mullard-Blackburn-BVA-12AU7-ECC82-Vacuum-Tubes-Long-Plate-Square-Getter-/161209307252?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2588d2d074
  
 And or if you can find a Blackburn Mullard / fisher branded...OMG ..sweet...


----------



## arcorob

umustbkidn said:


> You bought a pair of 1967 Hammond rebranded Mullards. They are the "short" plate variety (meaning they are unlikely to be microphonic, but they are not as good as the 17mm long plate variety). In my experience, rebranded tubes (of any kind) are not quite as good as the original brand (while that is a highly subjective statement, it has been generally true for the several dozen varieties I've tried). You're also using late 60's tubes, which just aren't as good as tubes made 10 years prior (but not nearly as expensive either).


 
 Very subjective..LOL
  
 The Mullard short or long plate , Fisher branded Blackburn plant are amazing...I do agree though the 17mm long plates are a tad nicer (I have both)


----------



## DefQon

arcorob said:


> Def.
> 
> I have to disagree (respectfully). Maybe its a system source thing but I have a Mullard 12AU7 long plate that is awesome in the Bravo. The reason I like it is because it has forward mids. To me, its the Amperex that are a bit too laid back. I also tried the RCA and GE black plates. They are VERY detailed but they had neutral to flat mids.
> 
> ...


 
 That's your system and your findings that is fine but peoples findings on Mullards are as I've described, I had a possession of over 30 Mullards various kinds for the 12AU7's integrated/headphone and preamp's I have they all sound distinctively close to each other. 
  
 Baldwin organ tubes 12AU7 are made by Sylvania.
  
 The best Mullards are Holland and Blackburn plant, same two plants Amperexes come from.
  
 LOL, Telefunken's are not rolled off period that award goes to the English plant make Amperex's dark and laid back sounding, you must have a rebrand from another manufacturer, there is a reason they are the best amongst the dual triode family with a strong following out there, best 12AU7 based tube money can buy for sound is the ECC802S, made in West Germany. There lower "generic" range that go for $40-100 fitting the usual description of smooth ribbed plates and a D getter blow Genalex ECC82's out of the water (which are also good tubes) that go alot more.


----------



## arcorob

defqon said:


> That's your system and your findings that is fine but peoples findings on Mullards are as I've described, I had a possession of over 30 Mullards various kinds for the 12AU7's integrated/headphone and preamp's I have they all sound distinctively close to each other.
> 
> Baldwin organ tubes 12AU7 are made by Sylvania.
> 
> ...


 

 People ? which people ? Not the ones I know. I have a ton of 12AU7's and 12AX7's (every type, 5751, WA, JG, A's) and have tried on a variety of systems. Even self built. Black plates, triple MICA. So that's YOUR system and YOUR findings and YOUR preference.
  
 One thing I have found out about tubes. You can't label a set or type of tubes as "the tubes". You also cannot discount tubes or assume (as WAY too many people do here) that they must be fakes. All tube preferences are system specific, application specific. They also have to be matched to the links in the chain. So if you have a tube phono stage, tube pre and tube amp, it is much harder to balance than just one of those having tubes.
  
 In my power amp, I tried every 12AX7 pair from $10 to over $125 a tube. The final one ? A very rare and hard to find pair of Sylvania 5751 Triple Mica Blackplates Yellow print. why ? detail. My system is very detailed with forward mids, nice tight strong base, wide soundstage. GE and RCA's had the detail, didn't have the forward mids. On my systems, Tele's are DULL. Mullards are sweet (#2). Amperex. yuck ptooy.
  
 Bottom line, don't disparage. encourage. If they want to try a Mullard it may be the most incredible tube they one...or ..they may hate it...only their system and their ears will know.


----------



## Didhefocus

I've had my V3 for 2 weeks now and like it except for the 3 band EQ. I had reservations about having an EQ but, at the time, the V1 was $30 more and the V2 was back-ordered at Parts Express. Since the V1 and V3 seemed (except for the EQ) to be the exact same amp so I ordered the V3. Well my reservations were well founded, I can't stand the way it sounds in stock form. The EQ has no markings to indicate were FLAT is or even what the center frequencies are with no instructions or anything to give me starting point. It does have center detents on the sliders so I started there. Well using my Yamaha HP-2s to start, there wasn't enough gain to get them louder than plugging them directly into my iPod touch, which BTW sounded much better. The only way the V3 sounded acceptable and had enough gain was with the sliders all the way UP! Makes sense since being a passive circuit they are attenuators. I still didn't like the sound.
  
I decided I would figure out how to bypass the EQ circuit and hear how it sounds before deciding to send it back. 
Well, after finding a couple of circuit diagrams of the V1, I located the 1K input resistors at the input of the main amp section. I soldered a stereo mini plug to them and ground and now I'm a very happy camper! The EQ just kills the sound quality especially in the low end and midrange. Bass dynamics are also crushed. 
 
The V3 came with a few assembly defects including sloppily placed resistors and loose transistor heat sink screws. One was so loose it was about to fall out. I would recommend anyone getting this amp to check the screws immediately to avoid overheating problems! 
I also replaced the IRF630 mosfets with IRL530s and it sounds even better! The warm tube sound I was searching for is now all there.


----------



## UmustBKidn

arcorob said:


> Very subjective..LOL
> 
> The Mullard short or long plate , Fisher branded Blackburn plant are amazing...I do agree though the 17mm long plates are a tad nicer (I have both)


 
  
 Yay! Other people besides me talking about tube rolling Bravo amps! Yay! I'm no longer alone in the wilderness lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Of course it's subjective. That's why I said it was subjective. Lol. Everyone's ears are different. As I've said in the sound science forum, our ears and brains are the least studied links in the audio chain, and as such the most mysterious.
  
 At any rate, a subjective opinion doesn't make it any less a valid observation on the part of the person making the observation. I tend to keep a box of half a dozen different tubes at work (in a locked place of course), where I can choose to roll a variety of different tubes. In the box, I keep a vintage Telefunken, a late 50's round getter Mullard, a Raytheon black plate, a Tung Sol, a Hewlett Packard black plate, and a 5963 of some sort. When I get tired of listening to one, I swap in another, and listen to my collection all over again, until it strikes me to change the tube lol. Each and every one of those tubes has a slightly different audio signature, which just fascinates me no end.


----------



## UmustBKidn

razor5cl said:


> So, my V2 works fine with a US to UK mains adapter, no smoke. Out of the box it sounds good, bass seems a little less prevalent on my DT990 Pros and that's without any tube rolling or significant burn in. I did leave it to warm up though.


 
  
 Good! Glad to hear it's working. Now for the fun part: tube rolling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Muhahahaha.


----------



## UmustBKidn

whiteshadow001 said:


> I'm new to tube rolling and I was wondering if the 12au7 tubes were the only tubes the V2 can use or can it use 12ax7's as well?


 
  
 I recommend giving Brent Jesse's description of the various plug-in substitutes for 12AU7s a read at this link.
  
 I have a collection of 5963's, 5814's, and 6189's that I've rolled into my Bravo's, in addition to a pile of 12AU7s.


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> ...
> But I'd think it'd be absurd rolling $150+ tubes in a $50 amp.


 
  
 Ok. I am absurd. DefQon said so


----------



## UmustBKidn

arcorob said:


> ...
> And or if you can find a Blackburn Mullard / fisher branded...OMG ..sweet...


 
  
 I have a couple Heath rebranded late 50's vintage round getter Mullards, a couple actual late 50's vintage round getter Mullards that I got really cheap from ebay when no one was paying attention, and a couple d-getter '56 vintage Mullards that I paid way too much money for, that sound spectacular, even on a stock Bravo V2. Yowza. Lol.


----------



## UmustBKidn

arcorob said:


> ...
> Bottom line, don't disparage. encourage. If they want to try a Mullard it may be the most incredible tube they one...or ..they may hate it...only their system and their ears will know.


 
  
 ^ This.
  
 I have the parts. I just haven't had the time. I am ready to mod one of my V2's. I need to be brave, take everything out to the garage, and sit down...


----------



## DefQon

arcorob said:


> People ? which people ? Not the ones I know. I have a ton of 12AU7's and 12AX7's (every type, 5751, WA, JG, A's) and have tried on a variety of systems. Even self built. Black plates, triple MICA. So that's YOUR system and YOUR findings and YOUR preference.
> 
> One thing I have found out about tubes. You can't label a set or type of tubes as "the tubes". You also cannot discount tubes or assume (as WAY too many people do here) that they must be fakes. All tube preferences are system specific, application specific. They also have to be matched to the links in the chain. So if you have a tube phono stage, tube pre and tube amp, it is much harder to balance than just one of those having tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 And so I have I, look on forums such as AA, AK, online tube sellers, the Telefunken ECC802S are regarded as one of the best easily, some classify it as the best and these are people are walking tube encyclopedia's and have the experience to know what they are talking about, of course if you're talking about multiple tubes used for different gain stages in a pre-amp especially it is much different, but I'm talking in the sense of one amp, one tube there is too many variables to count in if you're talking about some Conrad Johnson pre-amp for example that takes 5 12AU7's, 5 12AX7's and various other pentode family tubes. The Telefunken's are the GEC brown base of the 12AU7 family, the ECC802S don't go $450-500 a single tube for nothing if they were bad. Literally the holy grail of the 12AU7 family.
  
 Unfortunately as it is they are quite a few fakes floating around especially on ebay, one will not be able to distinguish between the genuine article and a fake unless you know what the sound traits are and the structure of the tube, the plates, grid, getter, etched codes and bottom base structure to the pin's give it away. 
  
 I don't know why you're taking this all personal and getting defensive about it because somebody else doesn't favour Mullard's as much as you do. Different strokes for different fokes, different application and different amps. To finally remind you this is a Bravo Audio thread on $50 tube amp's.


----------



## razor5cl

umustbkidn said:


> Good! Glad to hear it's working. Now for the fun part: tube rolling  Muhahahaha.




My wallet is already cowering in the corner.


----------



## UmustBKidn

razor5cl said:


> My wallet is already cowering in the corner.


 
  
 Well, what I recommend is a gentle stroll through the 12AU7, 5963, 5814, and maybe 6189 sections of the vintage tubes on eBay. Don't pay more than $10-15 per tube. Really, if you look and are patient, you can get them really cheap. I have purchased 5963 tubes for as little as $2.50 each, and they sound great compared to the stock tube. I recently bought a 50's vintage Raytheon black plate for $8 bucks. You can' t beat that kind of deal anywhere.
  
 Save the Mullard, Amperex, and Telefunken adventure for another day when you win the lotto. Think Frugal, and be patient.


----------



## whiteshadow001

defqon said:


> Doesn't take 12AT7 and 12AX7's. Yes they can work but the 12AU7 has the lowest gain of the triode family, then followed by the 12AT7 and then 12AX7 has the highest gain of all 3. It will overdrive the circuit and lead to distortion so it not a drop in replacement for this amp's circuitry. 12AU7 = ECC82 (European Prem's equivs) and a lot more, plenty of 12AU7's to be found. If you want you can buy an adaptor off ebay that will allow you to roll in 6SN7's.
> 
> As with distinguishing Mullards, the first thing that gives away a Mullard tube, be it a proper re-issue or rebrand is a big O getter that flashes on startup, 4 pinched groves on top of the tube glass surface and a very nice, deep low end and natural sounding treble, mids can be a bit distant and Mullards tend to have a good low-end but laid back neutral mid, treble and non sibilant highs. Detail is there but not as good as the Holland factory Amperex's which also can have a flashing O getter and pinched groves on the top tube glass surface.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the info! I've been trying to figure that out for days and for the life of me I couldn't find anything on this. Besides Mullard's, what other brand of tubes would you recommend? I've heard Sylvania's are nice, but I'll admit it, I'm a total noob to tubes haha


----------



## razor5cl

umustbkidn said:


> Well, what I recommend is a gentle stroll through the 12AU7, 5963, 5814, and maybe 6189 sections of the vintage tubes on eBay. Don't pay more than $10-15 per tube. Really, if you look and are patient, you can get them really cheap. I have purchased 5963 tubes for as little as $2.50 each, and they sound great compared to the stock tube. I recently bought a 50's vintage Raytheon black plate for $8 bucks. You can' t beat that kind of deal anywhere.
> 
> Save the Mullard, Amperex, and Telefunken adventure for another day when you win the lotto. Think Frugal, and be patient.




Thanks for the advice. Its not the fact that the tubes themselves are expensive, but I'll have to stop myself buying so many different ones to try. But I'll stick to you suggestions and try and get some for cheap.


----------



## arcorob

razor5cl said:


> Thanks for the advice. Its not the fact that the tubes themselves are expensive, but I'll have to stop myself buying so many different ones to try. But I'll stick to you suggestions and try and get some for cheap.


 

 RAZOR...I feel your pain,,,,LOL
  
 My 12AU7/12AX7 and 6L6GC journey was like that as well as EL84's...
  
 NOW...I just recently went overboard with the 6922/6DJ8/6GM8/6AQ8/7308 's for my AUNE T1 tube DAC. I have 3 I settled on...and 14 I don't need !!! LOL
  
 My very particular Velleman amp...Takes 1 - 12AU7  2 - 12AX7's and 8 (yes eight) 6L6GC's

  
  
  
 And this is an amp I built for my office...The preamp (solid state) was a kit, VU meters from China and the power amp portions is an EL84 power am I restored. The box was scrap wood...
  

  
 A Baldwin tube amp - was an organ pull customized ( I cant take credit for the build...just the improvements) - output trannies underneath


----------



## razor5cl

I just need to pace myself, I can probably survive for now on the stock tube, as I haven't heard anything better.


----------



## arcorob

Way too many posts to respond to so I'll summarize...
  
 I too am on AK, AS and would not touch AA with a ten foot poll. Reviews there are just as mixed and 70% of the people who talk about things have never tried them. That's another thread though.
  
 I know Brent Jesse very well...its where I bought my 1961 GE 6L6GC's. And his reviews are great ...just one perspective though (I do love the guys stuff though)
  
 It is NOT absurd to but a tube that cost more than the $50 bravo. It really is the heart of tailoring the sound. I bought my $2000 Velleman amp used for $500. I have spent well over $1200 on the tubes that are currently in it.
  
 Anyway, I don't want to get in a PISSING contest with someone..so lets just leave it at "Try tubes, see what you like and the brand will only be relevant to you"...
  
 Know what would be really helpful ? An upgrade DIY post on how to safely CUT OUT the EQ section of the V3...I think (and please, my opinion only) the V2 was the best they made...then scewed it up...I sort of know why...they though they were helping folks who felt limited by the direct sound input (from portable items like IPhones, etc) so why not add an eq...But they missed the boat
  
 Peace to all...lets have fun


----------



## arcorob

razor5cl said:


> I just need to pace myself, I can probably survive for now on the stock tube, as I haven't heard anything better.


 

 Razor...if you weren't so damn far away, I would send you two !!! In the states I could get two off to you for a flat rate $5.00 ...To the UK ...its $23.50 international flat rate...I am a believer in pay it forward and karma....But $23.?..LOL


----------



## razor5cl

That's the main barrier to me getting some cheap tubes.The cheapest ones I found with an initial search on eBay were like £10($15). Maybe if I can get hold of some money to get some, or snipe a 99p starting auction, I might get lucky, otherwise I'll wait.


----------



## money4me247

arcorob said:


> RAZOR...I feel your pain,,,,LOL
> 
> My 12AU7/12AX7 and 6L6GC journey was like that as well as EL84's...
> 
> ...


 
 how much did it cost you to build these amps?
  
 justcuriousss


----------



## razor5cl

Yeah how much pray tell?


----------



## arcorob

How much ?
  
 The Velleman is a 90wpc kit. Costs $2000 for the kit but I bought it for $500 used already put together. No free lunch. It had a buzz in one channel, hum in the other. Two months on and off work and cleaned it all up. Then $1100 in tubes. About $800 for the 6L6GC's from Brent Jesse (8 of them) and well worth it. $250 for the rare Sylvania 12AX7 5751's. About $50 for the 12AU7 long plate mallard.
 https://www.tubedepot.com/products/velleman-k4040-stereo-vacuum-tube-amplifier-kit
  
 Its one of the sweetest, quietest, detail sounding amp you can imagine..and 90wpc tube is HUGE
  
  
  
 Now the real steal ? The self built.
 I started with a Motorola console amp - $125 - with tubes ! About 12wpc. I moved the speaker connectors to the back instead of two sides. Now what to run it ? For $22 I bought a pre-amp kit with tone control...very cool. EASY to put together and great learning experience. For power to it I had a Ac to 12VDC wall wart. Then I built a box to store it in. The box looked too plain so I bought a Chinese VU meter kit. about $60...easy to hook in. Then some cool GE EL84 tubes and then 2 12AX7 Mullard Fisher branded tube. If you have 90db or better speakers, it will drive them EASY
  
 The organ amp I bought already built (about $300) and its 32wpc. I just upped the tubes a bit from EL34's to 6L6GC (cathode bias so I did not have to rebias)
  
 That help ? LOL


----------



## razor5cl

Is it me or is the volume pot on the V2 weird? It goes clockwise from 5 o'clock to 4 o'clock.


----------



## DefQon

What so you mean? All pots go clockwise.


----------



## UmustBKidn

arcorob said:


> ...
> Know what would be really helpful ? An upgrade DIY post on how to safely CUT OUT the EQ section of the V3...I think (and please, my opinion only) the V2 was the best they made...then scewed it up...I sort of know why...they though they were helping folks who felt limited by the direct sound input (from portable items like IPhones, etc) so why not add an eq...But they missed the boat
> 
> Peace to all...lets have fun


 
  
 Agreed. I read enough of the Bravo thread some 9-odd months ago, to determine 2 things:
  
 1) The tube used in the V1 was gawdawfulexpensive to replace (stuff on ebay at the time was insanely priced); and
 2) There were numerous people critical of the whole EQ idea (whether it was in the V3 or not)... and the V3 also used the insanely expensive to replace tube.
  
 So V2 was an easy decision. 12AU7's were and continue to be a cheap tube to replace (and you can go expensive, if you want).
  
 I suppose it could just be my ears, my brain, wishful thinking, expectation bias, or some other unknown, but when I plug in one of those old d-getter mullards, I could swear I hear a whole new level of detail. And thats with the stock amp. Really curious to hear what it sounds like on a modded amp.


----------



## DefQon

More highs and less restraint to the overall signature.


----------



## UmustBKidn

razor5cl said:


> Is it me or is the volume pot on the V2 weird? It goes clockwise from 5 o'clock to 4 o'clock.


 
  
 I'm looking at one of them as I write this, and the range of adjustment is 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock. Seems normal to me. Your knob may have been screwed on a bit wonky. Probably a simple matter to pull it off, turn it clockwise a bit, and push it back on.


----------



## 1337rice

I just bought the Bravo V2 on ebay just because I'm curious of how these will sound. I'll be plugging this to my computer's Auzentech X-Meridian 7.1 2g since I don't have USB DACs like most people do here. I don't have any high impedance headphones either (Sony MDR-V6, Audio Technica ATH-M50s/LE), but curiosity doesn't hurt right? I even got a Matsu****a 12AU7, just waiting for both the tube and amp to arrive now.
  
 I'm just not sure what to expect and just by going through a dozen pages here with so many different opinions based on what kind of setup that they have.


----------



## DefQon

Just buy the cheapest 12AU7 or equivalent tubes from ebay and call it a day.


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm sure I read somewhere that the V1 is the V3 minus the equaliser.


----------



## HOWIE13

arcorob said:


> Way too many posts to respond to so I'll summarize...
> 
> I too am on AK, AS and would not touch AA with a ten foot poll. Reviews there are just as mixed and 70% of the people who talk about things have never tried them. That's another thread though.
> 
> ...


 
 I am sure I read somewhere that the V1 is the V3 minus the equaliser.


----------



## Didhefocus

Maybe it was my post last page?


----------



## HOWIE13

didhefocus said:


> Maybe it was my post last page?


 
 LOL. Yes, could have been! 
 So there is no point someone buying a V3 to mod off the equaliser-may as well just buy the V1.


----------



## Didhefocus

howie13 said:


> LOL. Yes, could have been!
> So there is no point someone buying a V3 to mod off the equaliser-may as well just buy the V1.


 
 In my opinion...yes, but in my case, I'm keeping it since I would have to spend more to replace it. I don't like the hassle of returns either!


----------



## HOWIE13

didhefocus said:


> In my opinion...yes, but in my case, I'm keeping it since I would have to spend more to replace it. I don't like the hassle of returns either!


 
 I was so pleased with the V3 I bought another one as a spare as I wasn't expecting it to last more than a few weeks.  I use them alternately every other day so hope to get twice the life out of them!


----------



## Didhefocus

howie13 said:


> I was so pleased with the V3 I bought another one as a spare as I wasn't expecting it to last more than a few weeks.  I use them alternately every other day so hope to get twice the life out of them!


 
 We seem to have a different opinion of the V3! Are yours un-modded?


----------



## HOWIE13

didhefocus said:


> We seem to have a different opinion of the V3! Are yours un-modded?


 
 Yes- unmodded. Listen mainly to Classical and Jazz, through CD's or FLAC files through a Sansa ClipZIP.


----------



## Didhefocus

In case anyone's interested, I started another thread focusing on just the V3.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/704243/bravo-audio-v3


----------



## HOWIE13

didhefocus said:


> In case anyone's interested, I started another thread focusing on just the V3.


 
 Great photos. Thanks for the new thread differentiating the various Bravos-much needed!
 Could you say a little about how the sound has changed with the equaliser exclusion mod compared to leaving the equaliser in the circuit with the levers in the 'up' position ie off?
 For Classical I like the detailed, analytical sound of the V3, albeit with less bass. Does the mod warm up the sound or reduce treble clarity?


----------



## Didhefocus

howie13 said:


> Great photos. Thanks for the new thread differentiating the various Bravos-much needed!
> Could you say a little about how the sound has changed with the equaliser exclusion mod compared to leaving the equaliser in the circuit with the levers in the 'up' position ie off?
> For Classical I like the detailed, analytical sound of the V3, albeit with less bass. Does the mod warm up the sound or reduce treble clarity?


 
 I find that the EQ bypassed adds midrange warmth, bass response and impact. Treble clarity is slightly improved also but the difference isn't as obvious. It's also much louder. Shouldn't we be using the new thread? Bravo Audio V3


----------



## HOWIE13

didhefocus said:


> I find that the EQ bypassed adds midrange warmth, bass response and impact. Treble clarity is slightly improved also but the difference isn't as obvious. It's also much louder. Shouldn't we be using the new thread? Bravo Audio V3


 
 Thanks, I posted on the new thread as well, when I realised I had mistakenly posted on this one-still trying to get used to the website!


----------



## miko16

Guys can you recommend or share your eq setting on your v3? Used mainly for rocks. May can is grado sr325is. Thanks


----------



## money4me247

miko16 said:


> Guys can you recommend or share your eq setting on your v3? Used mainly for rocks. May can is grado sr325is. Thanks


 
  Don't have any EQ settings on the V3 activated. I would imagine for rock you would want to just boost the mids.
  
 it may be better to use software EQ for more control.


----------



## razor5cl

From what I've heard the EQ on the V3 is not very good, basically you want to set all 3 bands to high to turn it off. Then as the person above said, use software EQ. It's much better.


----------



## ostewart

In the process of replacing the caps (for other cheapo ones) to see if it gets rid of the crackling problem I had. Also will redo the solder joints as there might be some cold joints.


----------



## yoyo711

Hello guys
  
 I Just pick up HD650 and sound just Ok but HD 555 sound very good on my computer Sound Blaster Z headphone AMP.
 So I'm looking at Tube Amp on ebay. I do not know what I get tho........
 6N11 or 6922,12AU7, 
  
 Please let me know
  
 Thanks


----------



## UmustBKidn

yoyo711 said:


> Hello guys
> 
> I Just pick up HD650 and sound just Ok but HD 555 sound very good on my computer Sound Blaster Z headphone AMP.
> So I'm looking at Tube Amp on ebay. I do not know what I get tho........
> ...


 
  
 You will not drive the HD650's sufficiently with simply a headphone output from a laptop or a desktop. And I would not use any sort of sound blaster card to drive them. No. Simply not good enough. That's why they sound "just ok". They are high impedance headphones that require a decent amp to drive them, and a decent DAC to drive the amp.
  
 First off, what is your budget? You don't want to go cheap with those cans. I guess you could if you must, but honestly, you won't do justice to them with something like the Bravo.
  
 If you are on a budget, the bare minimum I would go with is a Schiit Modi DAC, and the Schiit Vali amp. Yes, you could go with the Bravo (and I'd use a v2), and replace the stock Bravo V2 tube with something better from eBay ... but every report I've read in the Vali thread indicates the Schiit Vali is superior to the Bravo (any version). You'll spend somewhere around $220 bucks, but that's the very least I would do for those cans.
  
 However, if I were going to recommend something really appropriate for the quality of the HD650's, I would go with the Schiit Bifrost Uber, and a Bottlehead Crack amp. If you don't want to put the amp together, then go with a Schitt Valhalla amp instead. Either of those setups will yield results more appropriate for those headphones. You will spend around $800 for that setup, but it's far more appropriate to really put them to good use.
  
 (I am assuming of course, that you're wanting a tube amp of some sort.)


----------



## yoyo711

umustbkidn said:


> You will not drive the HD650's sufficiently with simply a headphone output from a laptop or a desktop. And I would not use any sort of sound blaster card to drive them. No. Simply not good enough. That's why they sound "just ok". They are high impedance headphones that require a decent amp to drive them, and a decent DAC to drive the amp.
> 
> First off, what is your budget? You don't want to go cheap with those cans. I guess you could if you must, but honestly, you won't do justice to them with something like the Bravo.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the info
 My budget is about $100~$120 Just in to Headphone so I do not know about amp
 how is the JDSlabs O2 I see the Amplification For Sale thread about $90 do i need to add DAC ??
  
 And what is DAC for ??? 
 I like to know what is DAC??
 Maybe go to SOCAL 2014 head-fi Meet
  
 Thank you again


----------



## money4me247

yoyo711 said:


> Thanks for the info
> My budget is about $100~$120 Just in to Headphone so I do not know about amp
> how is the JDSlabs O2 I see the Amplification For Sale thread about $90 do i need to add DAC ??
> 
> ...


 
 dac is kinda like an external sound card. it will improve on the sound card in your computer or audio player. no, a dac is not really necessary & from my personal experience, the sound quality improvements is quite subtle, so whether it's worth it for the price is up to you.
  
 however, UMustBKidn is right. for high impedance 300ohm headphones, you require an amp to achieve appropriate volumes and for the headphones to have enough power to sound good. I do disagree with absolutely requiring higher-end more expensive equipment. You can achieve decent results with some budget amp. The hd650 does scale up nicely with more expensive equipment, so that is why a lot of people recommend getting pricier stuff, but if you are just starting out, you can definitely get by with something cheaper & if you don't notice anything wrong with the sound, you can be content with that.
  
 just a note of budgeting for audio equipment. it is usually wiser (IMO), to spend the majority of your budget into your headphones as they have the biggest impact on your sound quality. maybe about <25% of your whole budget into external equipment like amps/dacs. also note there are quite a few free ways to improve your sound, like increasing the bit rate of your source files (higher bitrate mp3s sound much noticeably improved when using nicer headphones - you can definitely hear the difference between good vs bad sources). also, you can EQ the sound frequency to find a sound signature that suits your tastes.
  
 good luck & i hope this info was helpful.


----------



## UmustBKidn

yoyo711 said:


> Thanks for the info
> My budget is about $100~$120 Just in to Headphone so I do not know about amp
> how is the JDSlabs O2 I see the Amplification For Sale thread about $90 do i need to add DAC ??
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, you could go to the head-fi meet, and I would recommend it. But honestly, you really just need to spend some time reading this website. You need to learn some of the lingo and some of the concepts. I'm not sure how many people will be willing to spend their day explaining the basics to you. They are going to be there to try out gear they want to buy, more than anything else.
  
 Ok. Well, this is interesting. First off, you've got some great cans, but to really use them properly, they need to be amplified. You can search elsewhere on this website to really research why, I don't want to try to re-explain it here. That is not the case for all headphones. There are many excellent headphones that do not require an amplifier.
  
 You are not going to purchase the right equipment for those headphones for another $120 bucks. Sorry, bro. You would be better off returning those cans for something cheaper, and spending the difference on a low end DAC and amp for them. Or saving it for something else.
  
 I'm not sure how you ended up with Senn HD650s, but whomever sold them to you should have told you a bit more about them. They aren't the kind of cans you just plug into an ipod or laptop or sound card for that matter, and expect great things from. So if you have a choice, I would reconsider that purchase. If you can't return them, then I would consider selling them on the used equipment forum. You can probably get several hundred for a used set in good condition. And that will spare you the whole amplifier/dac thing, and let you buy some cans that are more appropriate for what you want.
  
 Personally, one of my favorite cans that does not require an amp to sound good are my Sony MDR 7506's. They are only 63 ohm cans and I can drive them with an ipod just fine. So if you had something like that, you could skip the rest of this discussion. There are many other choices, that's just one example.
  
 So, if I haven't scared you off yet: What is a DAC? It's a Digital to Analog Converter. Modern music is stored in binary format on your computer, compact disk, etc. Your ears cannot listen to music in binary format. It has to be in what we call Analog format. Back in the days of vinyl records and cassette tape players, music was recorded in analog format (which is to say, the sound amplitudes and frequencies were recorded onto magnetic tape or recordsm without being converted into another form). When it was played back, it was turned back into audible frequencies without all this fiddling around with 0's and 1's. Today, however, music is recorded in digital format, so it is necessary to convert those 0's and 1's on your computer into "analog format" before it can be played. A DAC does this.
  
 The amplifier just turns low level analog format music into higher level music that you can listen to through headphones or speakers. In the case of low impedance headphones, an amplifier is more of an optional decision. In the case of high impedance headphones, it is not optional - it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, you're just wasting your money.
  
 I'm really trying not to get into a huge technical discussion here lol. So let's just say that if you have a high quality set of headphones, and want to listen to high quality music, then you need a high quality DAC and an amplifier. By some stroke of luck or fortune, you own a set of some really high quality headphones, without really knowing why you want to own them. Most people who drop $500 clams on cans like that, know why they want them, and know that they also need some other gear to make them work properly.
  
 Quote:


money4me247 said:


> dac is kinda like an external sound card. it will improve on the sound card in your computer or audio player. no, a dac is not really necessary & from my personal experience, the sound quality improvements is quite subtle, so whether it's worth it for the price is up to you.
> 
> however, UMustBKidn is right. for high impedance 300ohm headphones, you require an amp to achieve appropriate volumes and for the headphones to have enough power to sound good. I do disagree with absolutely requiring higher-end more expensive equipment. You can achieve decent results with some budget amp. The hd650 does scale up nicely with more expensive equipment, so that is why a lot of people recommend getting pricier stuff, but if you are just starting out, you can definitely get by with something cheaper & if you don't notice anything wrong with the sound, you can be content with that.
> 
> ...


 
  
 A DAC is not an external sound card. They are two entirely different devices.
  
 Whether it is necessary to use a DAC or not depends on whether you need an amplifier. If you have headphones that don't need to be amplified, then you don't need a DAC either. But if you have headphones that need an amp, then you most surely do need a DAC. I really don't want to argue about it, I will just refer you to the plethora of information on this website that will prove that point to you.
  
 It is possible to skip using a DAC on a temporary basis. But I would not recommend it. Plumbing a headphone out jack into another amplifier is double-amping the sound, and it will result in excess distortion.
  
 I would not encourage someone who owns half of a good system to continue using it. Really. Whomever sold this person a set of HD650s without explaining to them that they are high impedance headphones that require amplification to sound good, did them a dis-service. I would not continue to do this person a dis-service by justifying their continued usage of such a setup. Yes, there would be an improvement by plugging it into a budget amp like a Bravo. But that's still far, far away from an ideal setup. You don't need to believe me. Run that by anyone else on this website that's been around for a while, and they will tell you the same thing.
  
 Budget amps like Bravo's are great for budget setups. But please don't make me sound like an incompetent jerk for recommending the right equipment for those headphones. Please do this person a favor, and give them the right information, and let them decide for themselves what to do. Thanks.


----------



## DefQon

Actually you couldn't be more wrong with not being very specific. A sound card can be both an sound processor and a dac but more so the former with no special input and output such as balanced xlr connections unless you get studio grade sound cards such as the Esi and M-Audio variants which are not cheap and do use a proper dac IC to convert digital 0's and 1's to a analogue wave signal output.


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> Actually you couldn't be more wrong with not being very specific. A sound card can be both an sound processor and a dac but more so the former with no special input and output such as balanced xlr connections unless you get studio grade sound cards such as the Esi and M-Audio variants which are not cheap and do use a proper dac IC to convert digital 0's and 1's to a analogue wave signal output.


 
  
 I'm not sure if it's the run on sentence, or the rum and coke, but I didn't get that


----------



## DefQon

There is no rum or coke in my sentence otherwise I'd be drinking it and not posted.


----------



## money4me247

umustbkidn said:


> A DAC is not an external sound card. They are two entirely different devices.


 
 lol... a DAC is simply a device that converts digital signal (the 1s & 0s) into analog signal. it's nothing magical or special. all audio-video-receivers have a DAC inside and most sound cards have a DAC component to process the digital data into an analog signal. basically, the easiest way to think about what a DAC does is to imagine it as an external sound card. the special input/output connectors that certain DACs provide is probably not needed for yoyo711, and it is really unnecessary for someone just starting out. Different DAC devices have different connector options just like different monitors have different input/output connections.
  
 For a $120ish budget of a solid dac/amp, it's easy. I purchased my bravo v3 tube amp ($65) + the stoner acoustic UD110v2 dac ($59) for $124 for my Hifiman HE-400. There are lots of other budget DACs out there such as the hifimediy sabre $60, Behringer UCA202 Audio Interface $30, $99 audioquest dragonfly v1.0, etc... (http://www.head-fi.org/t/696401/giant-list-of-sub-200-portable-dacs-w-their-chips-price). For that price, you get perfectly acceptable performance. You can spend a bit more: $200ish for the Schitt Magni amp & Modi dac combo or JDS Objective O2 amp + Odac combo or just $200 on a better audiophile-brand-name desktop amp.
  
 omg, please... all this audiophile stuff is really really simple and you can definitely get amazing high quality sound on a budget price. it's kinda silly that some 'audiophiles' try to make everything sound so complicated and that good sound is only available at a premium price. that is simply not true.
  
 >>>For @yoyo711, you basically need to know that for headphones with an impedance greater than 32 ohms, you will need an amp. The 300ohm impedance HD650 will require an amp. A dac is a device geared to further improve sound quality... aka dac is not necessary. for greatest upgrade in sound quality, upgrade your source files (try 320kbps mp3s at least). next, most important factor in determining your sound quality is your headphones. short version: there are two types of over-ears (open vs closed) named for whether they leak sound in&out. open leak sound for improved sound stage & other sonic qualities. closed noise isolate for privacy. finally, amps (tube amps vs solid state) only essential for high impedance headphones or low efficiency headphones. The sonic changes achieved by amps/dacs is probably only 10-15% from my personal experience.
  
 edit: however, UMustBKidn does bring up some good points. for certain headphones, there is a need for more equipment (slash more hassle) which may not be worth it for you. There are a wide range of amazing premium portable low impedance headphones on the market now from the $200-400 range including the AKG K545, Sennheiser Momentum... etc, etc...


----------



## yoyo711

money4me247 said:


> dac is kinda like an external sound card. it will improve on the sound card in your computer or audio player. no, a dac is not really necessary & from my personal experience, the sound quality improvements is quite subtle, so whether it's worth it for the price is up to you.
> 
> however, UMustBKidn is right. for high impedance 300ohm headphones, you require an amp to achieve appropriate volumes and for the headphones to have enough power to sound good. I do disagree with absolutely requiring higher-end more expensive equipment. You can achieve decent results with some budget amp. The hd650 does scale up nicely with more expensive equipment, so that is why a lot of people recommend getting pricier stuff, but if you are just starting out, you can definitely get by with something cheaper & if you don't notice anything wrong with the sound, you can be content with that.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


umustbkidn said:


> A DAC is not an external sound card. They are two entirely different devices.
> 
> Whether it is necessary to use a DAC or not depends on whether you need an amplifier. If you have headphones that don't need to be amplified, then you don't need a DAC either. But if you have headphones that need an amp, then you most surely do need a DAC. I really don't want to argue about it, I will just refer you to the plethora of information on this website that will prove that point to you.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


money4me247 said:


> lol... a DAC is simply a device that converts digital signal (the 1s & 0s) into analog signal. it's nothing magical or special. all audio-video-receivers have a DAC inside and most sound cards have a DAC component to process the digital data into an analog signal. basically, the easiest way to think about what a DAC does is to imagine it as an external sound card. the special input/output connectors that certain DACs provide is probably not needed for yoyo711, and it is really unnecessary for someone just starting out. Different DAC devices have different connector options just like different monitors have different input/output connections.
> 
> For a $120ish budget of a solid dac/amp, it's easy. I purchased my bravo v3 tube amp ($65) + the stoner acoustic UD110v2 dac ($59) for $124 for my Hifiman HE-400. There are lots of other budget DACs out there such as the hifimediy sabre $60, Behringer UCA202 Audio Interface $30, $99 audioquest dragonfly v1.0, etc... (http://www.head-fi.org/t/696401/giant-list-of-sub-200-portable-dacs-w-their-chips-price). For that price, you get perfectly acceptable performance. You can spend a bit more: $200ish for the Schitt Magni amp & Modi dac combo or JDS Objective O2 amp + Odac combo or just $200 on a better audiophile-brand-name desktop amp.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Guys
 I knew I did not know about headphone and amp
 First about 4 month go pick up used HD 555 I was shock.  It was new world on headphone it was very comfort and sound was very good.
 I google and somehow I find Head-fi how good is HD600 & HD650  forums and youtube......
 So I pick-up about 150 hours used HD600 local CL and it was other lever sound and soundstage detail si was WOW with out the amp.
 My co-worker want HD600 so I sold and 3 days go got my HD650 30 hours used on ebay.
 But HD650 was very small soundstage and very dark sound and detail is there but I like the HD600 better so last week I pick up Creative Sound Blaster Z which has headphone AMP but I did not like the sound so I want to car garage connect the Big Stereo amp to HD650.
 Sound got better but still soundstage lot small then HD555(soundstage mod to hd595)
 Maybe do I need Tube amp ???????? or DAC ???  Or Headphone amp????
 So for my English not good
  
 Thanks Again


----------



## money4me247

yoyo711 said:


> Thanks Guys
> 
> I knew I did not know about headphone and amp
> 
> ...


 
 The HD650 has a naturally darker sound signature. you can EQ to change this, but if you don't like the sound signature, the general recommendation is to get a different pair of headphones rather than messing with EQs. Yes, it sounds like the HD600 suits you better.
  
 The most common cause of bad sound quality for higher end headphones is your audio source files as nicer headphones are more transparent and revealing of subtle audio distortions. What are you using?
  
 I believe the HD555 has an impedance of 50ohms while the HD600 has an impedance of 300ohms. UMustBKidN is right, in the sense, that the Sennheiser HD600/HD650's sound scales up with nicer equipment and needs a good amp to sound the best. Adding a nice DAC will also help as well. However, I think it may be more prudent to try out a few different headphones with your stereo amp to see what kind of sound signature and sonic quality you are looking for as the pair of headphones you have has the biggest impact on those qualities over an amp/dac. After you find a pair of headphones that you really love their sound, you can amp/dac it up as required to further improve your sonic quality (but keep in mind that amps/dac will not cause that drastic of a change with sound). you can search the threads for specific amp recommendations for the hd600.
  
 If you are dissatisfied with the HD600 sound, my recommendation for a great bright sounding pair of open headphones with amazing sound stage would be the AKG K701/702/Q701 headphones.
  
 Note: headphone amps come in two basic flavors: tubes and solid state. Solid state is generally able to be more neutral/transparent sound and tubes have an unique "tubey" sound (aka more colored though you can find more neutral sounding tubes). You can play with tube amp's sound signature by tube rolling. generally speaking, low impedance headphones are current driven while high impedance headphones are voltage driven.


----------



## yoyo711

money4me247 said:


> The HD650 has a naturally darker sound signature. you can EQ to change this, but if you don't like the sound signature, the general recommendation is to get a different pair of headphones rather than messing with EQs. Yes, it sounds like the HD600 suits you better.
> 
> The most common cause of bad sound quality for higher end headphones is your audio source files as nicer headphones are more transparent and revealing of subtle audio distortions. What are you using?
> 
> ...


 
 I use all 320Kbps mp3 quality
 I have 1 More question 9622 tube or 12AU7 tube becase 9622 tube more expensive tho..
  
 Thanks again


----------



## miko16

It depends on what tube amp you will be using. 6922 and 12au7 are not the same.


----------



## yoyo711

miko16 said:


> It depends on what tube amp you will be using. 6922 and 12au7 are not the same.


 
 I know but what do you prefer?
 Or which sound better ?? V2 or V3


----------



## miko16

SQ they are both equal, it will all depends on what brand you uses. Afaik the only difference is the price between the two. 12au7 is cheaper than 6922 tubes.


----------



## razor5cl

From what I've heard, go V2. The V3 has some silly EQ circuit that ruins the sound.


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> There is no rum or coke in my sentence otherwise I'd be drinking it and not posted.


 
  
 I wasn't speaking of you bro, I was talking about myself


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> lol... a DAC is simply a device that converts digital signal (the 1s & 0s) into analog signal. it's nothing magical or special. all audio-video-receivers have a DAC inside and most sound cards have a DAC component to process the digital data into an analog signal. basically, the easiest way to think about what a DAC does is to imagine it as an external sound card. the special input/output connectors that certain DACs provide is probably not needed for yoyo711, and it is really unnecessary for someone just starting out. Different DAC devices have different connector options just like different monitors have different input/output connections.
> 
> For a $120ish budget of a solid dac/amp, it's easy. I purchased my bravo v3 tube amp ($65) + the stoner acoustic UD110v2 dac ($59) for $124 for my Hifiman HE-400. There are lots of other budget DACs out there such as the hifimediy sabre $60, Behringer UCA202 Audio Interface $30, $99 audioquest dragonfly v1.0, etc... (http://www.head-fi.org/t/696401/giant-list-of-sub-200-portable-dacs-w-their-chips-price). For that price, you get perfectly acceptable performance. You can spend a bit more: $200ish for the Schitt Magni amp & Modi dac combo or JDS Objective O2 amp + Odac combo or just $200 on a better audiophile-brand-name desktop amp.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know what a DAC is. I was explaining what it was to the person who asked about it. I also pointed out what the right sort of equipment would be to use with Sennheiser HD 650's. I see nothing wrong with any of that.
  
 I never said that DAC's were "magical" or "special", so please don't put words in my mouth.
  
 There are indeed DAC's inside many devices that play audio, video, or both. But there is a huge difference between a DAC based on a cheap DAC chip, and one based on a more expensive chip. There is also much to be said for the quality of audio reproduced by the circuitry surrounding the DAC chip itself. I am amazed that you would debate that, but I guess you just don't know any better. I invite you to post your criticism of my postings elsewhere on this website, and see what sort of reaction you get to the notions you present. You don't need to believe me. In fact, I invite you to ask others. Please.
  
 If you genuinely think that a DAC isn't necessary, great. In that case, my advice to the OP would be to sell his HD650's and save himself about $400 bucks, buy some cans for under $100 bucks, and be done with it. But if he insists on keeping those cans, then he ought to do them justice by adding a DAC and amplifier that would do those headphones justice. There simply is no reason to suggest otherwise.
  
 So, yeah. You can get good, but not amazing sound, on a budget. Suggesting that you can get the best sound from HD650's without a decent DAC or amplifier is ludicrous. They simply will not work correctly without being amplified, and using an amp by itself would only result in double amplification and distortion.
  
 This is the last time I will be responding to your posts on this matter. I do not care to argue over stuff like this. I have better things to do with my time.


----------



## UmustBKidn

yoyo711 said:


> Thanks Guys
> I knew I did not know about headphone and amp
> First about 4 month go pick up used HD 555 I was shock.  It was new world on headphone it was very comfort and sound was very good.
> I google and somehow I find Head-fi how good is HD600 & HD650  forums and youtube......
> ...


 
  
 @yoyo711:  I suggest that you do some more research on audio equipment before you spend a lot of money on headphones. The reason your HD650's sound the way they do, is that you are not driving them properly. If you really want to keep those headphones, then you need the right equipment to drive them, namely, a decent DAC and amplifier. This is not open for debate. It is a well known fact. I invite you to read the many hundreds of threads on this website that will confirm this.
  
 Whether you use a tube amp or solid state is a matter of personal preference. Those headphones need an amplifier and a good DAC. That is the answer to your question. That is why they sound "dark" to you. They will not sound good until you use a good amplifier and DAC. I am tired of repeating that now. That is the answer to the question.
  
 If you don't want to buy an amplifier or DAC, that is also fine. Sell those headphones and buy something cheaper that doesn't need an amp or DAC. Please, do some research for yourself, instead of forcing us to debate your choices for you. There is a lot of information on this website. You need to read it for yourself.
  
 Good luck.


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> The most common cause of bad sound quality for higher end headphones is your audio source files as nicer headphones are more transparent and revealing of subtle audio distortions. What are you using?


 
  
 No. Wrong answer. The person is not driving his headphones properly. That is the problem. Audio source files, good lord. Please. You really do not know what you're talking about.


----------



## razor5cl

What I would say to you, regarding Tube or Solid State is buy a good SS amp first to see if you like the general sound of your 650s, then if you really like it you can consider tubes. Tubes will change the sound and you may not like it, so stick to something cleaner firstly.


----------



## UmustBKidn

razor5cl said:


> What I would say to you, regarding Tube or Solid State is buy a good SS amp first to see if you like the general sound of your 650s, then if you really like it you can consider tubes. Tubes will change the sound and you may not like it, so stick to something cleaner firstly.


 
  
 ::sigh::
  
 HD650's are best driven by tube type amplifiers. Please, don't believe me. Read elsewhere on this website. The overwhelming majority of people who use these headphones indicates that they are best driven by tube type amplifiers.


----------



## ostewart

I briefly tried the HD650 with my Bravo Ocean, sounded good to me. But i've never been a fan of the HD650, much prefer the SoundMAGIC HP200 or German Maestro GMP 400


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> I briefly tried the HD650 with my Bravo Ocean, sounded good to me. But i've never been a fan of the HD650, much prefer the SoundMAGIC HP200 or German Maestro GMP 400


 
 You prompted me to try my HD 650 with my V3 and it sounds good too. I find the SoundMagic HP200 can be somewhat bright in the treble. For my liking the HP100 is better balanced, overall.


----------



## HOWIE13

yoyo711 said:


> Hello guys
> 
> I Just pick up HD650 and sound just Ok but HD 555 sound very good on my computer Sound Blaster Z headphone AMP.
> So I'm looking at Tube Amp on ebay. I do not know what I get tho........
> ...


 
 @YOYO711
 The problem is that we can only give you our best advice based on our own experiences and preferences. Ultimately only you, yourself, can determine if the 'true' sound of the HD 650 will suit your ears. I would go to a local HiFi shop that has decent equipment (DAC's Amps) and plug in your HD650's and listen. If you can compare different types of amps that way all the better. Then you will know if it is worth your while persevering with the HD650's.


----------



## yoyo711

howie13 said:


> @YOYO711
> The problem is that we can only give you our best advice based on our own experiences and preferences. Ultimately only you, yourself, can determine if the 'true' sound of the HD 650 will suit your ears. I would go to a local HiFi shop that has decent equipment (DAC's Amps) and plug in your HD650's and listen. If you can compare different types of amps that way all the better. Then you will know if it is worth your while persevering with the HD650's.


 
 That is good idea
 I'll do that
  
 Thanks
  
 Thank you very much !!!! all the guys give me advice
  
 Thank you again


----------



## money4me247

hahaha... @UmustBKidn, I don't know why you are taking such an argumentative tone. i never said anything disputing your opinions. however, the general vibe that you are giving off that you absolutely need to invest boatloads of money to have a nice audio set-up is simply not correct.
  
 it is perfectly adequate to drive the HD650 with a budget dac/amp such as something from Fiio (like the E17). The sound quality is perfectly fine. No, of course it is not the "best possible sound" you can possibility get for these headphones. However, even a DAC-less HD650 with the right amp will still have amazing sound quality compared to most everything else at that price point.
  
 this hobby is not about achieving the best possible sound possible, but achieving the _best sound for your personal tastes within your budget_. the price of dac/amp equipment doubles when going from a "budget-level" $100ish Fiio or Bravo set-up to the "entry-level" $200 Schitt or JDS offerings. To go further up to mid-tier equipment offerings by companies such as Emotiva or Matrix or Audio-gd would be another doubling of price, so you end up spending $400-500+ for external equipment, which would be as much as you are spending on the HD650 headphones. Now, to some people that last additional 10% improvement in sound quality gained by nicer equipment may be worth doubling your costs & spending an additional $400+, but for someone just starting out, I think that is pretty silly advice.
  
 I never said that a DAC is unnecessary to achieve the "best possible sound." Of course, the addition of a well-made DAC will improve the sound, but the question is by how much improvement are you getting for the price. it's the same thing with headphones lol. The HD650 is great, but it's not the best possible sound you can get as the price range of headphones goes up to $2,000k+. There is a point of diminishing returns for everyone where it doesn't make sense to spend more. The point is that you can definitely find good sub-$200 equipment adequate to drive the HD650 to the point where you don't notice any sonic flaws. You can get a $200 DAP such as the Fiio X3 or iBasso DX-50 with a top of the line WM8740 DAC chip and powerful enough amp to drive 300ohm headphones. It is also true that a properly amped HD650 without a DAC sounds great & the addition of a DAC will not drastically alter the sound quality (aka will not improve the sound by more than maybe 25% at most). If OP only has an additional $120 to spend on external equipment, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to spend that into an amp & be done with it. Or he can get an budget amp/dac combo. But there are definitely options at that price point.
  
 the truth is that the source files is the biggest factor of determining your sound quality. that is a fact. the dac & amp really has marginal impact on the sound quality relative to your source and headphones. if he is using a dedicated Sony home theater stereo amplifier (designed for powering speakers), he is most certainly giving the small dynamic headphone drivers inside the HD650 enough juice. therefore, it makes sense to ask what kind of source is he feeding the headphones. No matter how much juice, extra equipment, or expensive headphones you throw at a bad source is not recorded with a good sound stage... you will not get good sound stage. If sound stage is still an issue after testing with a adequate amplifier, I don't think that the answer would be to buy a different amplifier. I feel like looking at his source files is an obvious and helpful free step that shouldn't be so hastily dismissed lol (esp since the poster seems unfamiliar a lot of basic audiophile concepts). if he is still unsatisfied with the sound stage of these headphones, it would be a good idea for him to try other headphones known to have great sound stage such as the AKG Q701 to compare.
  
 Your suggestion of getting an easy-to-drive low impedance pair of headphones is a great alternative that I think the user should think about. However, it is not impossible to figure out an acceptable solution within his budget for his HD650. lol.
  
 also I don't think that kind of argumentative attitude is not helpful for the poster. we are all just throwing out suggestions to help him. I can see you have a different perspective on this matter than me, and that is totally chill. I just happen to disagree & I think that he can find something within his price range that will meet his needs. hahah. cheers.


----------



## razor5cl

I think he mentioned somewhere that he uses lossless.


----------



## UmustBKidn

money4me247 said:


> hahaha... @UmustBKidn,


 
  
 I'm no longer interested in listening to the attitude, and the misinformation. Welcome to my blocked list.


----------



## terance

Any ideas on how to get rid or minimize the shining of the blue light?
  
 I've tried filling that hole with tiny spongy things, but it still shines out of the bottom.
  
 I can't really complain, it's a pretty decent $60 tube amp.  Just want to get rid of that damn light!
  
 *tried searching thread, but didn't find anything, might have been using the wrong search terms?*


----------



## razor5cl

I think someone painted over it with green nail polish. I might try that as well.


----------



## HOWIE13

terance said:


> Any ideas on how to get rid or minimize the shining of the blue light?
> 
> I've tried filling that hole with tiny spongy things, but it still shines out of the bottom.
> 
> ...


 
 Using a tube socket saver will get rid of most of the glare. You just need to check that the sound quality won't be adversly affected.


----------



## ostewart

Use heatshrink and nail polish. Heatshrink to cover most of it, then the tip you can paint with nail polish


----------



## UmustBKidn

terance said:


> Any ideas on how to get rid or minimize the shining of the blue light?
> 
> I've tried filling that hole with tiny spongy things, but it still shines out of the bottom.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'd put a little piece of black electrical tape over that small spot. Cheap and it won't short any tube pins.
 Or try the socket protector.


----------



## DefQon

terance said:


> Any ideas on how to get rid or minimize the shining of the blue light?
> 
> I've tried filling that hole with tiny spongy things, but it still shines out of the bottom.
> 
> ...


 
 From rockgrotto:
  
 http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/5297
  
 In short. If you don't want the BLUE LED, just short it.


----------



## money4me247

umustbkidn said:


> I'm no longer interested in listening to the attitude, and the misinformation. Welcome to my blocked list.


 
 lol. that's totally chill. My posts were all very polite and courteous suggestions and I kept a pretty open tolerant attitude towards different opinions. If you can't handle a nice discussion with someone who has a differing perspective without resorting to insults and blocking people... I am not sure how to respond. Calling someone ignorant because their opinion is different from yours is quite immature.
  
 Not to be rude, but I find it interesting that you are saying so much about the HD650 when you have never even owned/demoed them, your headphone collection consists of sub-$100 cans, and you have never owned a pair of entry high-fi headphones near the sound quality level of the HD650. Also, interesting that you are suggesting that yoyo711 needs to spend more money on equipment when it doesn't look like you even have any experience of audio equipment outside of the entry-level budget sub-$100 gear. ...so I guess I am curious where you are getting all your opinions/suggestions from. It is generally frowned upon here on these forums for people to be throwing out suggestions and advice if your opinions are not based on any personal experience and you are just parroting what you've read elsewhere...
  
@yoyo711, Just a quick recap: the HD650 does _require _an amp. An underpowered HD650 would sound worse than your HD555. If you do not want to use an amp, UmustBKidn is right, you should look at another pair of low impedance headphones. However, a decent amp can be easily be obtained within your budget of $130. There are many people who here who believe that high impedance headphones sound better with tube amps, but it's really just a matter of personal preference. An dac is not necessary, but it can change/improve the sound. Note just $40 greater than your $130 budget, Aune T1 tube dac/amp combo can adequately power the HD650 and give you that "tubey" sound. If you have the HD650 properly powered and are still unhappy with the sound, you need to switch to a different pair of headphones. The fundamental sound signature and sound quality of a pair of headphones does not change that dramatically through upgrading external equipment. There is nothing that beats personal experience, so if you have the chance, you should really go & try out different gear/headphones to see what your ears prefer. From what you've said, I think that the AKG K701/K702/Q701 would suit what you are looking for  good luck & I hope you find what you are looking for.


----------



## razor5cl

^^^^this. An amp within your price range is totally possible, and if you don't like the sound then, get a new pair of cans.


----------



## ostewart

Amps that yoyo711 should look at are either the Bravo Audio Ocean (tube), XDuoo TA-02 (will be getting one shortly, super powerful, tube) or JDS Labs O2 (neutral solid state)


----------



## arcorob

Just wanted to pass this along..Bought a new 12AU7 for my Bravo V2...(I have at least a dozen for a variety of amps) but this one is killer in the V2
  
 ~~Amperex Bugle Boy 12au7/ECC82 short plates O-getter tube
  
 From top to bottom, one of the best I have heard in this amp. I have a long plate Mullard in my Velleman K4040 Power amp so trust me when I say, I have been through ALOT of ECC82's
  
 This is what I bought (I know the seller too...small world, guy works one building away from me..lol..save on shipping)
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/171230190142?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


----------



## ostewart

Bravo have sent me a new Ocean because of the problems I was having. I have 2 Mullard tubes, one has no writing on it, the other looks well used but was very cheap and tested good. Will be trying them out


----------



## UmustBKidn

arcorob said:


> Just wanted to pass this along..Bought a new 12AU7 for my Bravo V2...(I have at least a dozen for a variety of amps) but this one is killer in the V2
> 
> ~~Amperex Bugle Boy 12au7/ECC82 short plates O-getter tube
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have an Amperex Mullard in my collection, it also sounds wonderful. Definitely one of the better choices out there.


----------



## UmustBKidn

ostewart said:


> Bravo have sent me a new Ocean because of the problems I was having. I have 2 Mullard tubes, one has no writing on it, the other looks well used but was very cheap and tested good. Will be trying them out


 
  
 Really? Grats bro. I don't hear many tales of customer service from this company, so it's good to hear of one success story.
  
 In my experience, the only cheesy sounding Mullards are the IEC, and Webcor rebranded models. They aren't really anything special, definitely not worth spending more than $10 bucks on. Personally I think the long black plate American tubes sound better. The 50's vintage Mullards are tops IMO. That also includes the Heath rebranded Mullards from the 50's - they seem to have retained the Mullard quality. I haven't tried the Daystrom rebranded tubes yet - I keep meaning to buy one, if I can find one for a decent price. They seem to have been made in the right date range.
  
 I recently ran across a black glass Tung-Sol tube on ebay, and am waiting delivery. Really curious to hear how it sounds, these are supposed to be the best American 12AU7 tubes ever.


----------



## terance

I've been using mostly old RCA tubes, but I just put in an old GE tube that I got cheap on an ebay lot and it's pretty fantastic.
  
 Does anyone know anything about the gold lion reissue tubes?  I've been eyeing them for a while, but it's hard to spend $40 on a tube when you can spend a few days combing through ebay auctions to find some treasures.


----------



## DefQon

terance said:


> I've been using mostly old RCA tubes, but I just put in an old GE tube that I got cheap on an ebay lot and it's pretty fantastic.
> 
> Does anyone know anything about the gold lion reissue tubes?  I've been eyeing them for a while, but it's hard to spend $40 on a tube when you can spend a few days combing through ebay auctions to find some treasures.


 
 RCA and GE are generally regarded as "bottom of the chain" brand/lineup of tubes regardless of tube type. Some RCA's and GE do sound ok to good but it stops there.
  
 I've had direct experience with NOS Genalex ECC82 Gold Lions with gold pins from late 50's and they are very good (they had to be for the $460 I paid for). I also have 6BQ5 Gold Lion reissues, the reissues are just as good as the NOS for the money it is at. 
  
 Personally I'd stick with less expensive variants to get your feet wet with different tube sound from various brands, I don't care what some people say (a small group), spending big money on tubes for an amp such as this is just plain stupid and not worth it when you can invest that money into a much better amp.


----------



## terance

defqon said:


> RCA and GE are generally regarded as "bottom of the chain" brand/lineup of tubes regardless of tube type. Some RCA's and GE do sound ok to good but it stops there.
> 
> I've had direct experience with NOS Genalex ECC82 Gold Lions with gold pins from late 50's and they are very good (they had to be for the $460 I paid for). I also have 6BQ5 Gold Lion reissues, the reissues are just as good as the NOS for the money it is at.
> 
> Personally I'd stick with less expensive variants to get your feet wet with different tube sound from various brands, I don't care what some people say (a small group), spending big money on tubes for an amp such as this is just plain stupid and not worth it when you can invest that money into a much better amp.


 

 Yeah, the tube lot I got on ebay was 10 bucks for 6-7 tubes, so it was a pretty decent deal.
  
 The reissues are something like 20-40 bucks depending on if they have gold pins or not, may have to check those out.
  
 I personally don't see myself spending more money than I already have on tubes (I was more interested in the gold loins for my vinyl pre amp/amp), seeing as my bravo is connected to a $15 dac I bought on ebay.
  
 It is fun buying tubes though!


----------



## HOWIE13

terance said:


> I've been using mostly old RCA tubes, but I just put in an old GE tube that I got cheap on an ebay lot and it's pretty fantastic.
> 
> Does anyone know anything about the gold lion reissue tubes?  I've been eyeing them for a while, but it's hard to spend $40 on a tube when you can spend a few days combing through ebay auctions to find some treasures.


 
 The new Gold Lion E88CC sounds very good with the V3. Richer bass and better defined treble than the stock EH 6922 tube.  
 I can't personally vouch for the ECC82's though.


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> RCA and GE are generally regarded as "bottom of the chain" brand/lineup of tubes regardless of tube type. Some RCA's and GE do sound ok to good but it stops there.
> 
> I've had direct experience with NOS Genalex ECC82 Gold Lions with gold pins from late 50's and they are very good (they had to be for the $460 I paid for). I also have 6BQ5 Gold Lion reissues, the reissues are just as good as the NOS for the money it is at.
> 
> Personally I'd stick with less expensive variants to get your feet wet with different tube sound from various brands, I don't care what some people say (a small group), spending big money on tubes for an amp such as this is just plain stupid and not worth it when you can invest that money into a much better amp.


 
  
 When I recommend tubes, I always enclose a caveat about not spending a ton of money on tubes for this amp. I have never recommended someone go out and spend even $45 for one of those gold lion reissue tubes. I'm not even sure I'd call anything made today a reissue, since they aren't made by the same company - or even in the same country. To my knowledge, its now the same Russian company that makes the "reissue" Tung-Sol tubes. Bleh.
  
 That is not to say I haven't spent way too much on vintage tubes. In my defense, I'm also going to be using them in a Bottlehead Crack, when I finally get the time to build one.
  
 I have a couple of vintage GE 5-star 5963 tubes with red labels that sound quite good (I think I paid $12 for the pair). I think I have an RCA long black plate 12AU7 somewhere, that also sounds quite good. I can't say that any of the other GE or RCA tubes I've heard were outstanding, other than to say that any of them are better than the stock Chinese tube. I have a few Sylvania tubes (some that are rebrands) that are also unremarkable. But when you can pick them up for $2 or $3 each in a small lot of tubes, they are interesting to compare to other tubes.
  
 What I personally would do (and sometimes still do just for fun) is look for a small lot of say, 5-10 tubes of different types, and put in a low bid on them. Say, $10-12 bucks. If I don't win, no problem. Someone else wanted them more than I did. But sometimes I will win a small lot in that way, and I'll get a nice little selection of tubes to try, for not much more than it would cost me to buy one brand new Russian tube. People should keep in mind that there are several variants to the 12AU7's that will plug right in with no changes (5963, 5814, 6189), and those variants are often dirt cheap (because people insist on 12AU7s). I have even picked up an old Mullard using that technique (it probably was unbalanced or tested quite low, but who cares with an amp like this).
  
 It does help to know the value of what you're looking for. That takes time, and sifting through lots of auctions. I find it just a whole lot of fun, but it's not for everyone.


----------



## UmustBKidn

terance said:


> Yeah, the tube lot I got on ebay was 10 bucks for 6-7 tubes, so it was a pretty decent deal.
> 
> The reissues are something like 20-40 bucks depending on if they have gold pins or not, may have to check those out.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Exactly. $10 bucks for a half dozen tubes is a great buy, even if some of them aren't so great. If you want to see some really insane deals, search on the 5963, 5814, or 6189 tubes too.


----------



## arcorob

Very true guys...you really don't have to spend a lot on 12AU7 tubes, just keep your eyes open....One caveat to that though...you have to know the sound you are after, what works with your headphones. I have a slight advantage in this arena as I have a tube amp that uses a single 12AU7 (plus 2 12AX7's and 8 6L6GC') ..So I have a need for 12AU7's that are perhaps a bit high end...and I have spent more than $20 for some..but about knowing what works.
  
 I know that a GE Black Plate 12AU7 is going to be super detailed and work great in my amp...but probably sound a bit bright in the Bravo. My long plate Mullard is pretty perfect for my amp..and damn nice in the Bravo...
  
 But just as good in the bravo? GE Grey plate, some organ tube brands Baldwin, Hammond, etc..
  
 Yet, expectations come into play here. I have said (and agree) that lesser priced tubes sound good. So if good is good enough, wonderful. But lets talk about great. Great is not about price but may be pricey. One has to keep their eyes pealed.
  
 Some really great Bravo tubes (again system dependent ) Ameprex Bugle boy, Mullard Blackburn Grey plate or long plate. Some really great and inexpensive would be the 5814A (WA) which are military grade or the JG military grade...very very low noise...
  
  
 Good luck on the hunt...trying is half the fun of this great little amp...


----------



## ieatDIAMONDS

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to the whole audio world, but i'm really loving everything I'm learning so far. I just recently purchased a pair for beyerdynamic DT-990 250 ohm, and I'm highly considering a bravo amp.
  
 I have a few questions, though. What's the difference between the V1 and the V2. lol. I'm sure this has been answered in this thread before, and I have searched, but I couldn't find a definite answer. 
  
 Also, which would you guys recommend for me? I don't mind switching out the tube later on. I enjoy "modding" things. I want something that can really enhance the bass experience and maybe bring out the mids a bit more from my dt990s.


----------



## terance

ieatdiamonds said:


> Hey guys, I'm pretty new to the whole audio world, but i'm really loving everything I'm learning so far. I just recently purchased a pair for beyerdynamic DT-990 250 ohm, and I'm highly considering a bravo amp.
> 
> I have a few questions, though. What's the difference between the V1 and the V2. lol. I'm sure this has been answered in this thread before, and I have searched, but I couldn't find a definite answer.
> 
> Also, which would you guys recommend for me? I don't mind switching out the tube later on. I enjoy "modding" things. I want something that can really enhance the bass experience and maybe bring out the mids a bit more from my dt990s.


 

 To my knowledge the only difference between the V1 and V2 is the tube that it comes with.
  
 I could be wrong though, but if you plan on swapping the tube out you may as well go for the cheaper amp!
  
 Hopefully someone else can chime in.


----------



## UmustBKidn

ieatdiamonds said:


> Hey guys, I'm pretty new to the whole audio world, but i'm really loving everything I'm learning so far. I just recently purchased a pair for beyerdynamic DT-990 250 ohm, and I'm highly considering a bravo amp.
> 
> I have a few questions, though. What's the difference between the V1 and the V2. lol. I'm sure this has been answered in this thread before, and I have searched, but I couldn't find a definite answer.
> 
> Also, which would you guys recommend for me? I don't mind switching out the tube later on. I enjoy "modding" things. I want something that can really enhance the bass experience and maybe bring out the mids a bit more from my dt990s.


 
  
 To my knowledge (which is probably imperfect) the only difference is the tube (6922 for the V1 and 12AU7 for the V2). Some people seem to think that 6922 tubes are superior - personally I have never done any A-B testing to confirm or refute that theory. I kind of doubt that a particular type is better, I would tend to believe that old vintage tubes in general are better than the newly made stuff. To my ears, the newly made tubes sound "tinny", and are very hissy (meaning I can hear hiss at listening levels when vintage tubes sound silent to me). There seems to be a wide variety of sound quality from vintage tubes, but none of them really sound bad, like new tubes do.
  
 When I was considering which to buy, I was also browsing this thread for a while. More than one person claimed the V2 to be superior, but I don't remember them saying why. I did a little shopping on eBay and quickly discovered that there were a whole lot more tubes available for the V2 than the V1 (at least, at that point in time), and those 6922 tubes could get insanely pricey (at least, so it seemed at the time). Perhaps it was more accurate to say that there are, and remain, many 12AU7 tubes that can be purchased very cheaply, as discussed above. I just went and looked real fast, and eBay did have some reasonable 6922's. I could be wrong, but it seems like there are a whole lot more, cheaper vintage 12AU7 and its variants.
  
 In retrospect, all vintage tubes can get pricey, and are frequently over-priced. I've seen specimens of both 6922 and 12AU7 exceed $100 each. Assuming you believe those tubes are worth that price, as someone else said, it's just a bit nuts to spend that kind of money on a tube for a cheap $75 dollar amp. For a better amp? Perhaps.
  
 As for modding, the only examples I've seen discussed were the V2's. I would expect that the V1's could be modded in the same way (being probably the same circuit), but I haven't seen that discussed (maybe it's out there somewhere). There are multiple discussions of modding the V2 in this thread and elsewhere on the internet.
  
 I will also just say that the Bravo amps should be considered the absolute usable bottom end, in terms of hybrid amps. I've had one for probably 9 months now, using it during the week at work (every day), for 5 to 10 hours a day, and no problems yet. The only reason I use it at work is that it might get stolen, and I don't want to spend big money on an amp that might get stolen. To me, that is the main reason I use a Bravo: bang for the buck, and I'm not going to lose a lot if it gets stolen.
  
 There are many better amplifiers. The most notable new hybrid is the Schiit Vali amp, and I would feel bad for not mentioning it, because it just blows everything in this price range away. You would have to fully mod a Bravo amp and run a really great tube to come close to it, and you may end up spending more money attempting to do that. That's something to consider, if you can afford $120 bucks.


----------



## HOWIE13

I was thinking of buying a Schiit Vali but was put off by reports of high noise and microphonics. .
 Has anybody experienced this problem with the Vali?


----------



## UmustBKidn

howie13 said:


> I was thinking of buying a Schiit Vali but was put off by reports of high noise and microphonics. .
> Has anybody experienced this problem with the Vali?


 
  
 I read the Vali thread regularly. The ringing issue has been largely resolved. Someone figured out that bending the leads a certain way inside the amp, resolved most of the ringing present in early versions of the amp. The high noise issue seems to mostly plague users of IEM's (which are generally low impedance, e.g. 16 ohms). If you use higher impedance cans, the noise floor is a non-issue. If you use IEM's, you may be better off with something else.


----------



## DefQon

umustbkidn said:


> When I recommend tubes, I always enclose a caveat about not spending a ton of money on tubes for this amp. I have never recommended someone go out and spend even $45 for one of those gold lion reissue tubes. I'm not even sure I'd call anything made today a reissue, since they aren't made by the same company - or even in the same country. To my knowledge, its now the same Russian company that makes the "reissue" Tung-Sol tubes. Bleh.
> 
> That is not to say I haven't spent way too much on vintage tubes. In my defense, I'm also going to be using them in a Bottlehead Crack, when I finally get the time to build one.
> 
> I have a couple of vintage GE 5-star 5963 tubes with red labels that sound quite good (I think I paid $12 for the pair). I think I have an RCA long black plate 12AU7 somewhere, that also sounds quite good. I can't say that any of the other GE or RCA tubes I've heard were outstanding, other than to say that any of them are better than the stock Chinese tube. I have a few Sylvania tubes (some that are rebrands) that are also unremarkable. But when you can pick them up for $2 or $3 each in a small lot of tubes, they are interesting to compare to other tubes.


 
 They are officially marked as reissues by the company as the manufacturing standards are met with the new stuff, there is and shouldn't be a difference to a reissue tube if it is made accordingly to the original manufacturing standards imposed by the previous company. NOS companies back in the day use to cross-manufacture tubes for other big NOS brands for different continents.
  
 Yes and I forgot to add, it makes absolute perfect sense to spend fairly large amounts on tubes that you know will be drop in or compatible replacements in another amp or the next amp you'd be buying. The Bravo wasn't the first tube amp I've owned but it was the first 12AU7 tube amp for me and since then I have moved on from my very large stash (500+ 12AU7 variants and equivalents) and kept a select few cheap ones that offer sound performance not far from the $300+ rare NOS variants that I've sold off because it is too precious, high valued and boutique for me to keep around knowing it could fail or turn out faulty the very next day, so why not sell it and keep a $30-100 tube that offers 99% of it's sound qualities. 
  
 Heck $10 for a dozen tubes (assuming they've tested fine with no leakages and shorts) is a very fine deal, heck if one of them or all them eventually fails, hey it's only beer money gone, you've earned the experience of what the tube sounds like from X brand and had the enjoyability while it lasted.


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> They are officially marked as reissues by the company as the manufacturing standards are met with the new stuff, there is and shouldn't be a difference to a reissue tube if it is made accordingly to the original manufacturing standards imposed by the previous company. NOS companies back in the day use to cross-manufacture tubes for other big NOS brands for different continents.
> ...


 
  
 I agree with what you stated. But I also have spent many years in such an environment, and know that standards are usually minimums. They do not guarantee a maximum of performance, only a minimum of performance.
  
 The same can be said of generic medicine; while one can argue that generic medicine is supposed to be chemically equivalent to the original, they really aren't the same. The original is usually better, sometimes quite a bit better. Back when the price difference between generics and brand name meds wasn't so dramatic, I used to order brand name medicines, just to be assured of the best quality. Now most insurance companies won't permit that, and if they do, you pay a really hefty price difference.
  
 I run into this difficulty at work a lot. What one is supposed to do, versus the best thing to do, is often different. When faced with the pressures of schedule and performance, people often choose the path of least resistance. That path usually doesn't result in the best product. It requires a certain level of personal integrity, courage, and a strong belief in ethical values, to do the right thing. Not everyone is able or willing to do that.
  
 Sadly, the other thing that happens all too often is, the skill to make something the right way is lost over time. People retire, die, get laid off, quit, etc and don't write things down. If they didn't show their colleagues how they did something, then a little bit of manufacturing technology is lost, every time that happens. I'm going through a similar situation right now at work. It happens all the time, sadly.
  
 So, while the re-issue tube may in theory be meeting the same standard(s) as the vintage tubes, they really are not the same things. One evening of listening should convince even the skeptical listener of that.


----------



## DefQon

umustbkidn said:


> I agree with what you stated. But I also have spent many years in such an environment, and know that standards are usually minimums. They do not guarantee a maximum of performance, only a minimum of performance.
> ........
> So, while the re-issue tube may in theory be meeting the same standard(s) as the vintage tubes, they really are not the same things. One evening of listening should convince even the skeptical listener of that.


 
  
 While using comparison of medicine is a big extreme as hefty repercussions can pay the price of death of a person, comparison of tubes on the other hands just takes one listen side by side, be it placebo, bias or psychoacoustics it brings differences. While on the other hand, I've had direct experience and ownership of both NOS and reissues and couldn't tell the difference, even through self imposed DBT having it setup by another person.


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> While using comparison of medicine is a big extreme as hefty repercussions can pay the price of death of a person, comparison of tubes on the other hands just takes one listen side by side, be it placebo, bias or psychoacoustics it brings differences. While on the other hand, I've had direct experience and ownership of both NOS and reissues and couldn't tell the difference, even through self imposed DBT having it setup by another person.


 
  
 Perhaps. But it was the only analogy that came to mind on short notice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I would counter your point by saying, if everything sounds the same, then we all should just buy the cheapest headphone, skip the amplifier and DAC, and listen from our ipods or laptops. We could dispense with this whole website and many arguments, and save a ton of money.
  
 However, it seems to me that there is evidence to the contrary in abundance on Head-Fi. I guess we could all be wrong. But I can personally tell the difference between my Sony MDR NC-40's and my Sony MDR 7506's, with the latter sounding much better than the former. I have a much smaller inventory of tubes than you, perhaps three dozen, and I can hear the differences between about half of them (with the other half sounding approximately the same). I can hear the difference between my Schiit Modi, and my Pure i-20 DAC. I can hear the difference between my Schiit Magni, and my Bravo V2. So, personally, my senses are giving me feedback that there are indeed differences to be heard.


----------



## HOWIE13

umustbkidn said:


> I read the Vali thread regularly. The ringing issue has been largely resolved. Someone figured out that bending the leads a certain way inside the amp, resolved most of the ringing present in early versions of the amp. The high noise issue seems to mostly plague users of IEM's (which are generally low impedance, e.g. 16 ohms). If you use higher impedance cans, the noise floor is a non-issue. If you use IEM's, you may be better off with something else.


 
 Thanks for the info. Now I need to save up for the enormous postage costs as I don't think it's available to buy at present in the UK and will have to have it shipped from the States.


----------



## DefQon

umustbkidn said:


> Perhaps. But it was the only analogy that came to mind on short notice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Of course everything sounds the same, why do you think I sold my 8k+ of headphones and related amp's for Beats by Dre stuff?


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> Of course everything sounds the same, why do you think I sold my 8k+ of headphones and related amp's for Beats by Dre stuff?


 
  
 ...


----------



## razor5cl

I think the point is that if two pieces of gear are transparent, they both sound the same. As you go up in price, the goal of gear is to be transparent, so highest end gears sound similar(the same)


----------



## DefQon

razor5cl said:


> I think the point is that if two pieces of gear are transparent, they both sound the same. As you go up in price, the goal of gear is to be transparent, so highest end gears sound similar(the same)


 
  
 The goal is to neutral and natural to original source as possible.


----------



## razor5cl

Yeah, so its kinda impossible for two pieces of (measurably)transparent gear to sound different.


----------



## DefQon

razor5cl said:


> Yeah, so its kinda impossible for two pieces of (measurably)transparent gear to sound different.


 
  
 Measurement of transparency and subjectivity (sound impression) of transparency are very two different things. It's like the XO I'm drinking now to the scotch that I would be skulling down later.


----------



## HOWIE13

defqon said:


> The goal is to neutral and natural to original source as possible.


 
 That certainly can apply if the original recording is well engineered and produced. However, I have several classical recordings that sound awful through 'neutral' headphones with decent equipment, and have been independently reviewed as being poorly produced. For instance, remastered violins can sound bright and grating with DT880's but fantastic with HD650's.
 On the other hand, some classical vocals can sound over warm and poorly projected, lacking depth, with HD650's yet are just perfect with DT880's. I am only saying these as examples where the recording is badly managed. They are both excellent headphones.
 Balance can also be a problem. I have just bought a recently produced and well received recording for voice and piano where both are far to the right of the sound-stage on all my, and my friend's, equipment. Probably the recording engineer had a blocked right ear that day!


----------



## DefQon

Drink more alcohol. Music sounds better this way.


----------



## razor5cl

Energy drinks work too.


----------



## HOWIE13

I'll give them a try sometime.


----------



## ostewart

Another budget tube ap for you guys to take a look at, XDuoo TA-02 (MSRP $112) stock tubes are terrible, but i put some mullards in and it sounds great. Also looks sweet  will test against my Ocean when the new one arrives.


----------



## UmustBKidn

razor5cl said:


> I think the point is that if two pieces of gear are transparent, they both sound the same. As you go up in price, the goal of gear is to be transparent, so highest end gears sound similar(the same)


 
  
 Well actually, I just figured he was pulling my leg, so I added some humor


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> Drink more alcohol. Music sounds better this way.


----------



## ostewart

They have released their Solid State amp, the Rock:
  
 http://www.bravoaudio.com/Rock.html
  
 Also got my replacement Ocean, put a mullard tube in and having lots of listening pleasure.


----------



## UmustBKidn

ostewart said:


> They have released their Solid State amp, the Rock:
> 
> http://www.bravoaudio.com/Rock.html
> 
> Also got my replacement Ocean, put a mullard tube in and having lots of listening pleasure.


 
  
 Wow. $199. Someone should show that to Jason


----------



## ostewart

I hope to get one for review at some point soon.


----------



## ostewart

Actually just found out the Rock is an old end of line product.
  
 New solid state coming next week guys.
  
 Will be getting one to review.


----------



## DefQon

I'm willing to bet it is nothing special inside. Either driven by low voltage mosfets or opamp's.


----------



## ostewart

Op-amps, interchangeable though.


----------



## DefQon

As expected.


----------



## ostewart

I will post pics of the inside when i receive it


----------



## tdockweiler

Got the Bravo V2 in last week and am surprised at how good it is! Thought it would be some cheap toy and sound bad or just decent, but it's far better than the price would make it seem.
 I even liked it with the stock tube which is said to be terrible. I don't agree with that really.
  
 With the stock tube there was definitely a little extra warmth but I'm surprised it didn't ruin anything else. Low mids were a little more forward than usual when I tried it with the Modi. The best results with stock tube were with a docked Ipod Touch 2G which I find neutral and a bit cold sounding with no warmth that I can detect. It's much different in tone than my old Ipod with a Wolfson DAC.
  
 I wasn't sure which tube upgrade to order and NOS or more expensive tubes were NOT an option (I can't use Ebay). After some research I went with the JJ ECC802 with gold pins. Cost was about $24. It actually sounds less thick in the mids (OK!), but overall more neutral. Not as "fun" sounding but it sounds more like a solid state type sound (sort of like my Micro Amp). If you say i'm hearing things that's OK!
  
 BTW on the first hours with the new tube I had a thin/harsh/tinny sound with my Q701. I cleaned out my ears and it went away. Pretty funny and BIZARRE. It was either my ears had wax in them, burn in (!!) or I was too stressed out.
  
 I've found this $50 "Toy" to sound great with ALL my headphones. HD-650, K400, Q701 and even the 38ohm Koss Pro DJ100.
  
 With the upgraded tube I've not really noticed any major colorations. Of course it has a more natural tone to MY ears than the O2, but I wouldn't say it's too warm.
  
 People are raving about the Vali, but I think this sounds way better. I had the Vali and it only liked my Q701 for whatever reason.
  
 Definitely looking into other tubes that are not too expensive. Perhaps something a little warmer sounding than the ECC802. If anyone has any suggestions..let me know. Unfortunately no ebay and needs to be not too expensive and easy to find.
  
 BTW so far I actually am enjoying this new toy more than I ever did with the Magni and O2. Feels like Christmas.
  
 Also, this thing has TONS of gain. No headphone had to be higher than 5%.


----------



## ostewart

I would recommend the Mullard tubes for smooth, lush sound, thats what i have in my Ocean.
  
 Also my new ocean has a black PCB where as my original had green. Don't know if they tweaked it a little because of possible issues, like the issue i had.


----------



## UmustBKidn

tdockweiler said:


> Got the Bravo V2 in last week and am surprised at how good it is! Thought it would be some cheap toy and sound bad or just decent, but it's far better than the price would make it seem.
> I even liked it with the stock tube which is said to be terrible. I don't agree with that really.
> 
> With the stock tube there was definitely a little extra warmth but I'm surprised it didn't ruin anything else. Low mids were a little more forward than usual when I tried it with the Modi. The best results with stock tube were with a docked Ipod Touch 2G which I find neutral and a bit cold sounding with no warmth that I can detect. It's much different in tone than my old Ipod with a Wolfson DAC.
> ...


 
  
 Welcome to the Bravo club 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 We're not a big group, but we like our amps.
  
 It's been my guess that the Bravo design is a copy of something posted on DIY Audio Projects (not to be confused with DIY Audio) some years ago. There are other hybrid amps based on the same basic design. Most of them seem to sound quite good. The Little Bear amps have more of a reputation of being cheaply made, but that's second hand heresay. The garage amps are better quality, but you spend a lot more money for them (the lowest price model is nearly 3x the price of a Bravo V2 - which is now $54 on Amazon).
  
 I also tried a JJ Electronics tube from Amazon. I consider it a waste of money. There are plenty of vintage American tubes available that sound better than the Russian and Chinese crap.
  
 Personally, you can find quite a selection of vintage 12AU7 American and European tubes at Audiotubes.com, based in Illinois. Brent Jesse is a pro. I've purchased from him a couple times. His website has the contact info, and you don't need eBay. I'd read the page at the link above thoroughly before calling him, so you have some idea what you want. He has 12AU7 tubes priced as low as $9 dollars.
  
 You can scroll through the list on Audiotubes,com and pretty much pick what you want based on your budget. If I were going to suggest things, I first refer you to this thread, in which myself and another member review a number of tubes as played on a Bravo. You may also want to read my Budget-Fi comparison involving the Bravo V2, Schiit Magni, Schiit Modi, and Pure i-20.
  
 For the same money you spent on the JJ Electronics tube, you can get one of a variety of old vintage American tubes, GE, RCA, etc. If you want to spend a bit more money, opt for something with long black plates. I personally find the long (e.g. 17mm) black plate tubes to have a very nice, solid sound (particularly the old RCA or Raytheon black plates). If you want to go overboard, you can grab an old Mullard tube like a few of us have done 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But be forewarned, they are expensive, and probably don't sound best until you mod your Bravo.
  
 Yes, there's also the issue of mods. There are several components which can be changed fairly easily, that are said to have a big improvement. Yes, I've said it a bunch of times, I've got the components to mod mine but I haven't done it yet. My work schedule has been insane since before Christmas. And it's still nuts.
  
 Finally, I will say that one of my favorite combinations of my gear is, the Schiit Modi driving the Bravo V2, into my Beyer DT770 / 250 ohm cans. With a Mullard d-getter tube (yes, I know, the tube cost more than the amp). I can only imagine how good it will sound after modding.


----------



## tdockweiler

umustbkidn said:


> Welcome to the Bravo club
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the suggestions and comments. I definitely am looking forward to trying out some older tubes, but nothing too expensive.
 I was reading up into some of the longer JJ tubes and I found 2-3 other posts from a few on various forums saying they hold up well to the sound of older tubes. Thought they'd be worth a try. I was in a hurry though.
 I have this one here:
 https://tubedepot.com/products/jj-ecc802s-hi-performance-12au7-gold-pin-preamp-vacuum-tube
  
 There was a cheaper JJ electronics ECC82 that might sound a bit worse. Who knows.
  
 This ECC802 is pretty much neutral with a slight touch of warm and sounds really smooth, but yet very detailed and clear. It really is surprising switching between tubes and hearing the differences easily. Not "night and day". It's definitely an upgrade from stock, but more neutral sounding and a little more boring.
  
 I went back to the stock tube and found it nice and fuller sounding and seems to make female vocals sound even better, but it's too pronounced in the low mids and fatigues my ears quickly. I must be one of the few who can get fatigued by low mids. I was using an HD-650 at the time so that was probably why.
  
 I'm guessing there is not going to be any new tubes (not NOS) that are anything all that special.
  
  I was really surprised at how good the HD-650 sounded with this $60 amp. I guess the HD-650 does improve with tubes as they say..despite this being a hybrid. With the stock tube it kind of felt like the HD-650's soundstage increased in size even with the extra warmth.
  
 Also..i'm a HUGE fan of the Modi, but for some strange reason the Bravo V2 sounds best with my docked Ipod Touch 2G(!). I'll figure out why eventually. Maybe the Modi has some warmth that previously never really registered with me. Perhaps it's my USB port crapping up the sound.
  
 Now i'm really wondering what the Schiit Lyr or even the Valhalla sounds like. Maybe when I get more money i'll try out some more tube amps.
  
 Biggest surprise is how  this thing manages to sound good with everything I have. I don't even hearing any noise or hiss etc. I guess i'm lucky.


----------



## UmustBKidn

tdockweiler said:


> Thanks for the suggestions and comments. I definitely am looking forward to trying out some older tubes, but nothing too expensive.
> I was reading up into some of the longer JJ tubes and I found 2-3 other posts from a few on various forums saying they hold up well to the sound of older tubes. Thought they'd be worth a try. I was in a hurry though.
> I have this one here:
> https://tubedepot.com/products/jj-ecc802s-hi-performance-12au7-gold-pin-preamp-vacuum-tube
> ...


 
  
 Indeed. The preamp tube in use seems to dictate how much noise I hear. Good tubes don't make noise or hiss. Cheap tubes (like the Electro Harmonix) do.
  
 Well, I know I've read several modern vendors of tube or hybrid amps, are making do with the modern Russian / Chinese tubes. My degree is in computer science, so I don't know if it's possible to design a circuit with the newer tubes in mind, and make some amp sound just as good as it does with a vintage tube. I suppose if that was possible, that certain vintage tubes would not be in demand the way they are, nor cost anywhere near what they seem to bring on eBay. I am sure that sticking with the modern tubes is less expensive. I'm just not convinced that it yields the optimal SQ.
  
 But as we both know, that's subjective. Every combination of components yields a different synergy. I'd really like to mod one of my Bravo's and take it to a local meet, and A-B it with a Vali before I spend money on it. My Bravo has never been microphonic in the way the Vali is. I've rolled a couple tubes that you could hear noise from, if you purposely tapped the tube while playing. But I don't generally do that, and microphony has never been an issue with this amp.
  
 On the contrary, the Bravo invites tube rolling. That or I'm just being somewhat obsessive with the whole tube rolling thing, ha ha. But I quite literally have several dozen tubes of several types (5814, 5963, 6189, in addition to 12AU7) that I like to swap into the amp I keep at work. Very often I just start out my day at work with a different tube, and see how it sounds. Someday I may try to quantify what I'm hearing, but for now it's just fun to listen to how my music changes with different tubes.
  
 I have a cup where I store my "crappy" tubes. In that cup are tubes I don't use for some reason, be it lousy sound or damage. Most were bought in small lots via auction on eBay, but a couple I purchased from Amazon before I knew any better. The list includes:
  
 Electro Harmonix 12AU7 made in Russia (came in a small lot of tubes from eBay), lots of hiss from this one.
 JJ Electronics ECC82 made in the former Tesla factory in the Slovak Republic (bought from Amazon), sounds cheap and tinny
 The original Shuguang 12AU7 tubes from both amps (very thin sounding tubes, anything is better)
 A Tung-Sol 12AU7A that hums badly (the guy who sold it to me on eBay should have thrown it out)
 A Raytheon black plate with one bad triode (another bad buy from eBay, should have been thrown away). I even bought a pin straightener to try to fix this one, no luck.
  
 The Tung-Sol that hums was the first purchase I made from eBay last year, to begin my tube rolling exercise. It works, but it's noisy - and I've since purchased much better tubes. I am glad that I did not let it dissuade me from trying something else. So far, the record is 3 bad out of about 3 dozen tubes purchased from eBay, which really isn't so bad. That's a much better record than when I first started to use eBay back in the late 90's (when scamming was far more prevalent).
  
 My next amp will be the Bottlehead Crack. I'd have ordered one already, if it wasn't for my nutty work schedule. I just don't have the time to put one together yet. When things calm down, I will order one. That's kind of why I stuck with the 12AU7 family - I knew I'd be using them for another amp. The really twisted part is that I've also already purchased several power tubes, including two Tung-Sol 5998 tubes ... and I don't own the amp yet. Lol. Oh well.
  
 I guess for me the bottom line is, I've really become a fan of tube and hybrid amps. Someday if I ever hit the Lotto, I want to buy a Decware amp. Now those are just flat out amazing.


----------



## DefQon

802S are not bad, even from JJ or reissue Tesla. The only time I would consider using JJ's is for some sort of triode regulating circuit where it is doing anything other than being in the signal path.
  
 $24 can grab you quite a few vintage tubes. 
  
 I would also not consider all Russian and Chinese tubes crap. Premium Psvane and Shuguang tubes from China/Taiwan are better then 95% of the dual triodes out there until you get to the $250 per tube NOS. Only the 6volt Russian pentode or triodes are good. Not so much from the dual triode family, i.e 12*** family. I think I've figured out a way to rewire and redesign some bits of the circuit to take 12BH7's nicely.


----------



## UmustBKidn

defqon said:


> 802S are not bad, even from JJ or reissue Tesla. The only time I would consider using JJ's is for some sort of triode regulating circuit where it is doing anything other than being in the signal path.
> 
> $24 can grab you quite a few vintage tubes.
> 
> I would also not consider all Russian and Chinese tubes crap. Premium Psvane and Shuguang tubes from China/Taiwan are better then 95% of the dual triodes out there until you get to the $250 per tube NOS. Only the 6volt Russian pentode or triodes are good. Not so much from the dual triode family, i.e 12*** family. I think I've figured out a way to rewire and redesign some bits of the circuit to take 12BH7's nicely.


 
  
 Would you be willing to share your circuit mods? I am the curious sort.


----------



## DefQon

Once it's stable I will. Right now it's just playing around.


----------



## terance

I had the chance to listen to the Bravo with my turntable this evening and it was fantastic.
  
 I've always listened to it with my computer set up, and because of the amount of gain the amp has, had very little play with the volume knob.
  
 With the analog set up I am able to really push the amp higher and manipulate the volume with my phono stage.  The amp sounds really good when you can actually put some volume into it.  It was pretty surprising, but I liked it a lot and it sounded pretty close to my Dared Mp-5 ($250 used).
  
 This tiny amps keeps surprising me!


----------



## ostewart

I'm going to try my Ocean as a pre-amp for my speaker setup at some point in the future, should be interesting. Also have the iFi iTube which I will try as a pre-amp too


----------



## UmustBKidn

ostewart said:


> I'm going to try my Ocean as a pre-amp for my speaker setup at some point in the future, should be interesting. Also have the iFi iTube which I will try as a pre-amp too


 
  
 One thing I keep meaning to try is powering some desktop speakers with the Bravo. With the amount of gain it has, it should be able to do so.


----------



## ostewart

It probably could drive them out of the RCA on the back. If they are small low powered desktop speakers.


----------



## DefQon

Nope.


----------



## stupidmop

defqon said:


> Nope.


 
 Dude, love your style  Please do share the 12bh7 data. I love em in my sunrise.


----------



## ostewart

just got the new Solid State Bravo amp in the post, small with clear acrylic casing like their tube amps, Op-amp rollable, will post pics and impressions soon (busy man atm, with DDS DAC-01 and HA-01, also T-Peos H-300)


----------



## hugoboss

i just bought the bravo ocean and want to hear some of your guys opinion about rolling tube
  
 1.will bravo ocean work good with electro harmonix tube 12au7 gold pin? (price $20)
 how will it sound? more warm or less warm compare to shuguang, more detail?
  
 2. Northern Electric 12AU7 is this better than the electro harmonix tube 12au7 gold pin? (price$40)


----------



## UmustBKidn

hugoboss said:


> i just bought the bravo ocean and want to hear some of your guys opinion about rolling tube
> 
> 1.will bravo ocean work good with electro harmonix tube 12au7 gold pin? (price $20)
> how will it sound? more warm or less warm compare to shuguang, more detail?
> ...


 
  
 Please read back a few pages and read my impressions on tubes. Basically, I think the stuff being made now is junk. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## hugoboss

I buy the Northern Electric 12AU7 today. after listening several songs
 iam sure i will not regret this tube. it's sound so better than the shuguang.
 more detail, cleaner, wider.


----------



## Dinnr

Just received one of these in the mail, I was wondering what in your opinion would be the best tube to roll for listening to rock (eg. Led Zep)?
 Would upgrading the input jacks make any difference to quality also?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Didhefocus

dinnr said:


> Just received one of these in the mail, I was wondering what in your opinion would be the best tube to roll for listening to rock (eg. Led Zep)?
> Would upgrading the input jacks make any difference to quality also?
> 
> Thanks.


Which version did you get?


----------



## Dinnr

didhefocus said:


> Which version did you get?



It was the audio v2 with the chinese 12au7 tubes (i think that is what they are called).


----------



## Didhefocus

To me, those Chinese tubes sound just OK but have terrible microphonics. Tap the tube lightly with a pencil without any signal and hear the ringing. 
 I have the V3 which takes a 6922 and came with a decent Russian Electro-Harmonix but my Little Bear P-1 probably came with the same tube as your V2. I got some 50's and 60's vintage 12AU7s from this guy on ebay  http://www.ebay.com/usr/spin4cards . He only lists matched pairs but he sold me mixed singles for only $4.95 each shipped! I was very satisfied with his choices, all US made. My favorite is a Raytheon with long black plates. Led Zeppelin sounds great with it! Just send him a message and tell him what you're looking for.
 Replacing the connectors won't affect the sound but gold plating may give you better protection from corrosion in the long run.


----------



## Didhefocus

dinnr said:


> Just received one of these in the mail, I was wondering what in your opinion would be the best tube to roll for listening to rock (eg. Led Zep)?
> Would upgrading the input jacks make any difference to quality also?
> 
> Thanks.


 
 In my opinion, the single most effective mod you can do on these amps is to replace the IRF630 MOSFETs with IRL510. Crosstalk distortion (this amp's worst flaw) is all but eliminated and the high end is extended beyond 30khz.


----------



## mcandmar

I agree, 2nd worthwhile mod is to replace the two DC blocking caps with something decent like Elna Silmic II.


----------



## Dinnr

Alright, I live in the UK so I guess I shall have to search around for some tubes, it looks like I shall be replacing the mofsets and caps mentioned above.

Thanks!


----------



## amigomatt

Get an old Mullard valve from eBay. I picked one up for less than £20 and it transformed the sound.


----------



## Didhefocus

dinnr said:


> Alright, I live in the UK so I guess I shall have to search around for some tubes, it looks like I shall be replacing the mofsets and caps mentioned above.
> 
> Thanks!


He ships worldwide!


----------



## UmustBKidn

dinnr said:


> Just received one of these in the mail, I was wondering what in your opinion would be the best tube to roll for listening to rock (eg. Led Zep)?
> Would upgrading the input jacks make any difference to quality also?
> 
> Thanks.


 
  
Read this comparison.
  
 Read this post, in this thread.
  
 Your profile doesn't indicate your location, but I think I saw something about you being in the UK. Visit the eBay version in the UK and pick yourself up a Mullard ECC82. Maybe a Telefunken. Brimar if you can find one. Siemens would also be nice. Skip the Russian and Chinese tubes, they are tinny and noisy in comparison to vintage tubes. Yes, that's just my opinion, but I stand firmly by that opinion.
  
 If money is an issue, then look into the 12AU7 variants, e.g. the 5963, 5814, 6189, etc. They are usually cheaper and in far greater supply.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Started on my Bravo V2 mod last weekend. Posted some comments in this thread.


----------



## UmustBKidn

Grrrrr. Did not look closely at capacitor sizes when I ordered parts.
  
 Just had to order more capacitors.
  
 Grrrr.
  
 I guess I could have built another top cover. Or another bottom cover. But bleh, too much work.
  
 On the bright side, the Mosfets and the voltage regulators went in without much difficulty.
  
 Now back to the waiting game...


----------



## mcandmar

Let me guess, the two output caps are too tall?   Or you bought Elna Silmic II, they are always twice as along as anything else.
  
 For the time being bung the stock caps back in and give it a listening test, would be curious to hear your opinion on the better fets as the difference is significant. I assume you went to 510's?


----------



## UmustBKidn

mcandmar said:


> Let me guess, the two output caps are too tall?   Or you bought Elna Silmic II, they are always twice as along as anything else.
> 
> For the time being bung the stock caps back in and give it a listening test, would be curious to hear your opinion on the better fets as the difference is significant. I assume you went to 510's?


 
  
 Actually, they were too wide. I would have had to remove the 3.5mm input connector to fit one of them in, and the other would have sat at a 45 degree angle, propped up against one of the voltage regulators. Tall would not be a problem (I can drill a hole in the top cover), so I decided to order the taller caps, with a workable width.
  
 The power supply cap turned out to be something called a "snap in" variety. I was not familiar with this type of termination, and didn't notice it when I ordered them. So in place of wires, there are what looks like tabs, meant to connect to something on a circuit board. Phooey. I also noticed that I failed to order 105 degree parts, so that got updated too. I'll still have to drill out that hole too (the new part is several mm wider), but I don't care, so long as I can fit it on the board.
  
 I'm just trying to avoid the situation where I need to mount parts off the board. I have seen some curious configurations, but I guess I'm just not quite prepared to go that route yet. I'm still hoping to keep the top cover, and get away with drilling or widening holes for the caps. I am keeping the stock heat sinks because I'm using a small USB fan to cool the unit.
  
 My logic is, if I have to resort to a lot of customization, then I'm giving up and buying a Bottlehead Crack now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Which I plan on doing at some point anyway.
  
 I also hope to document this process in a concise way and put all the lessons learned in one place, so anyone else can do this. So far what I've learned has had to come from several different websites; the parts lists are different, the opinions vary widely, and it kind of bugs me that I've spent as much time as I have, just trying to figure out what to do. My other goals with this is task are to prove whether or not it's really worth monkeying with one of these amps at all, and if so, to put a firm price on what it costs to do so (and not usurp the whole discussion for the purpose of turning it into a business).
  
 The original design of this circuit, from what I can tell, comes from this project on the DIY Audio Projects website. Also near as I can tell, that freely available design has spawned at least four commercial amps from four separate companies. I don't know if I would have tried making one of those instead, had I run across that first. In any case, this amp and these mods have surely benefit from much improvement and discussion over the past few years. So I won't be reinventing the wheel, just polishing the chrome a bit. Of course, there will be a comparison to my stock Bravo V2 when I'm done.


----------



## mcandmar

There was indeed a few variations (excuse the pun), and a few different manufacturers that produced variations, the Indeed G3 being the latest revision of the design. Its a fun little amp to experiment with, i certainly learnt a lot about different brands of capacitors and their individual sound, and same for the different types of transistors. It is deeply flawed though in that tubes running at that low a voltage are far from ideal and it runs hot enough to cook an egg. It can sound decent and be fun to listen to. It is in no way comparable to a Bottlehead Crack though, not even the same sport. But hey its cheap so have fun with it.
  
 The previous revision the Indeed G2 / Little-Bear P-1 can be picked up on eBay for ~£20 these days, at that kind of money everybody should have one


----------



## UmustBKidn

mcandmar said:


> There was indeed a few variations (excuse the pun), and a few different manufacturers that produced variations, the Indeed G3 being the latest revision of the design. Its a fun little amp to experiment with, i certainly learnt a lot about different brands of capacitors and their individual sound, and same for the different types of transistors. It is deeply flawed though in that tubes running at that low a voltage are far from ideal and it runs hot enough to cook an egg. It can sound decent and be fun to listen to. It is in no way comparable to a Bottlehead Crack though, not even the same sport. But hey its cheap so have fun with it.
> 
> The previous revision the Indeed G2 / Little-Bear P-1 can be picked up on eBay for ~£20 these days, at that kind of money everybody should have one


 
  
 Hah, yeah, I remember hearing a lot about the Indeed G3 when I first discovered this thread.
  
 Well, I am sad. I got the other caps this week, and went to put them in today. When I plugged everything in for a smoke check, I got no sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 At power on, there seemed to be an extra audible pop sound (from the headphones). I thought I heard some music briefly, while attempting to wiggle all the connections. But mostly silence, and some hum from the left channel.
  
 I think my last ditch attempt to salvage this project will be to give the circuit board a good cleaning. There is some flux spattered about. I may also try to re-flow the connections one more time. But at this point, I am depressed. Especially after putting this much thought into this thing. May also try a couple different cables.
  
 I guess I could try putting new semiconductors in, on the off chance that something was shorted. I don't know how fragile those things are. But I might just damage them again. Phooey.
  
 Curious that not even one side of the amp is working. Hmm.
  
 Well so assuming this amp is now a brick, I'm back to shopping for a new amp. I really don't want another little hybrid - I still have a working Bravo V2 at work. Indeed G3? Schiit Vali? Garage whatever? No, I think it will be time to take a step up.
  
 Assuming of course that I don't destroy the BHC with my soldering skills...


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

Good evening.  My first post here.  I've read 30 pages so far...some very good information!  I'll keep reading this week as time permits.  I just ordered my Bravo V2 yesterday from Amazon.  Don't know if fleabay still has them or not, but I don't go there anymore, so it's a moot point.  I do have a couple questions.  Has anyone integrated a computer cooling fan to help with the heat build up?  I'm going to play with mounting one on top, with extensions to the 4 corner stanchions to clear the tube and cap that protrude through the factory top.  Second question is has anyone coupled this with a wireless to get headphones to the opposite side of the room without having extension cords to trip over?  I have a Nyrius NY-GS3200 5.8GHz 6 Channel Wireless Audio/Video Sender Transmitter & Receiver system coming also and I'll report on how that does.  I know it will not be hi fidelity, but hope that I can watch TV while the wife is teaching in an adjacent room. I can always bypass the wireless piece and plug my laptop into it to watch music videos. 
 I'll be using AKG K-240s with this set up.  Mostly listen to A Capella music, ie: Pentatonix.  I'm looking for ideas on a tube to roll that would have good bass, clear mids and highs and a good sound stage.  If A Capella music and bass seem to be directly opposed to each other to you, listen to some Pentatonix offerings and you'll understand my requirements.  Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.  Now back to the 141 remaining pages!!!!  Jim.


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

Got my Bravo 2 in Wed.  Just now getting it set up.  Definitely need a different tube.  Stock is all midrange and no bass, very few highs.  Looking for suggestions.  Letting it play with the headphones.  Both need to be broken in.  Sure wish I had my original AKG K240s from the middle 80s.  I think they sounded much better than the new ones, but that could be just old memories too.  Jim.


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

Well, I mentioned the Nyrius NY-GS3200 5.8GHz 6 Channel Wireless Audio/Video Sender Transmitter & Receiver System I got to go with the Bravo V2.  I happy to report that it works great!  I'm sure it loses a little quality, but I can watch TV or videos from my laptop to the TV without bothering my wife.  This TV has a 3.5mm stereo audio out port that using a 3.5 to stereo RCA jacks attaches to the transmitter.  Then a short RCA patch cord to the Bravo unit and I'm in business.  Not bad for audio...certainly better than the cheap Panasonic on ear headphones I use with the laptop.  Just wanted to report this in case anyone else is looking for a similar solution.  Jim.


----------



## razor5cl

If your TV has some sort of digital output(optical maybe) you could get one of those cheap Fiio DACs that converts optical to RCA, then run that into your Bravo. That way you get a clean digital output rather than double amping.


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

Yes, something like that would be ideal...and this TV does have the optical Toslink out.  The line level out I'm using is pre-amp as the level doesn't change with the built in TV volume and works even with the volume all the way down.  I think I could also do RCA out from my Yamaha RX-V667 HT receiver and do the same thing and use the built in Dac there.  But that would probably require the receiver to be turned on.  And since this RF unit is not going to be high quality anyway, I'm thinking I wouldn't gain anything.
 Now, if I was not using the RF unit to transmit the audio signal to the Bravo, the digital out would be the way to go.  Thanks for the note.  It is good information that I hadn't thought about.  Jim.


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

I need some ideas on tubes.  What would be better if all testing shows to be equal.  Raytheon long black plates from 1959, or RCA 17mm gray plate clear tops from 1966?  Anyone with some help on what each will bring on the Bravo V2 vs the Stock tube?  I'd like a little more and clearer bass.  I'm using a newer set of AKG K240 headphones.   Thanks!  Jim.


----------



## UmustBKidn

umustbkidn said:


> ...
> Well, I am sad. I got the other caps this week, and went to put them in today. When I plugged everything in for a smoke check, I got no sound.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Update: I decided to go back and re-solder each connection I made during my modifications, and do a good cleaning of the board with 99% alcohol. Lo and behold, that did the trick!
 ITS WORKING AGAIN! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just for good measure, I finished up tonight with the crosstalk mod.
  
 I spent a good 2 hours listening to my modified V2. The setup was not optimal - used an ipod shuffle into a 3.5mm to RCA adapter to drive the bravo, and used my ATH M40's to listen. I had an old GE 5963 tube plugged in, so this was not the best I could do (no DAC on hand, and no better tubes).
  
 Oh My Gawd. Even with this setup, it sounds impressive. The improvement in the high end is amazing - not only is the amp clearer, the sound stage opened up and i could hear detail I had not heard before on this amp. The only disappointment was the bass sounded somewhat muddy. That could have been because of the lack of DAC (I'm not sure how hard I was driving it with the ipod), or perhaps these headphones (they are not the best cans). But hell, this is a world apart from the stock Bravo V2.
  
 Lesson learned: Cold Solder Joints are Evil. And one really must wash the board with 99% alcohol to get all the crud off. Either or both could have been the problem.
  
 I'm just glad it came back to life. Now I need to drill the top cover for the new, taller capacitors. I also need to perform the mod to alleviate the annoying "pop" that's happening at power up now. I don't want to blow out any headphones. Once that's done, it will be time for the Bravo Vs. Bravo review, with a proper DAC and some good tubes.


----------



## UmustBKidn

coolmeadow kid said:


> I need some ideas on tubes.  What would be better if all testing shows to be equal.  Raytheon long black plates from 1959, or RCA 17mm gray plate clear tops from 1966?  Anyone with some help on what each will bring on the Bravo V2 vs the Stock tube?  I'd like a little more and clearer bass.  I'm using a newer set of AKG K240 headphones.   Thanks!  Jim.


 
  
 A lot of the questions you're asking have been discussed earlier in this thread. Yeah, I know, it's a long thread. I've been participating in it for a little over a year. I did not read from the beginning, but I've hit a few sections in the middle.
  
Here is a thread discussing mods, including some discussion of tubes.
  
Here is a review I wrote comparing the Bravo V2 vs the Schiit Magni, using the Pure i-20 DAC and Schiit Modi DAC.
  
You should visit these boards if you're considering modifying your amp. Note that's a different website.
  
 I've got two V2's, one which I just brought back from the dead, after modifying it. Tubes can help open up the high end (telefunken ECC82's in particular), but you really need to replace the MOSFETs if you truly want the high end improved. I'm still tinkering with it, and will write more about it after I'm done. I'm partial to Mullards myself, and I'm really anxious to see what this modified amp sounds like with a vintage Mullard in it.


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

Sorry for not posting a reply UmustBKidn.  I opened a new thread on the tubes, and hadn't been back over here.  I read the whole thread once before posting much.  Just this weekend, I've skipped through the first 45 or so pages, and read  through the remaining 120 or so pages  pretty closely looking for specific information.  I ordered 3 tubes 2 weeks ago. First, a Baldwin re-branded Sylvania green label long grey plate halo getr.  I liked it a lot! Still not quite the bass I was looking for. The next 2 came together, a Black long plate RCA square angled getr from 53 or 54, that didn't do much for me.  Definitely better that the supplied tube, but still weak in the bass department. And a Black long plate Baldwin yellow label re-branded Raytheon with halo getr that is the best of the lot!!  Much better bass that is tight.  Good mids and highs and decent sound stage. 
 After re-reading the thread this weekend, I ordered 2 RCA clear tops to try, since several people said they worked very well in the V2 and had really good bass.  I also copied info on the different modifications recommended for these, and I'm contemplating doing that also.  Just finished up an Oak housing for the amp that incorporates an 80mm computer fan to help cool things down. This has been running for about 15 minutes and the heat sinks are not hot at all.  I can grab both sides and hold on with no notice of heat. It will be a little more involved to roll tubes, but just a couple minutes.  May have to rebuild it if I do the mods, depending on the caps I go with and where they have to be mounted to fit I may need a little more height than I have right now.  But I'll cross that road later.
 Thanks for your help.  I enjoyed reading your posts.  Jim.


----------



## UmustBKidn

coolmeadow kid said:


> Sorry for not posting a reply UmustBKidn.  I opened a new thread on the tubes, and hadn't been back over here.  I read the whole thread once before posting much.  Just this weekend, I've skipped through the first 45 or so pages, and read  through the remaining 120 or so pages  pretty closely looking for specific information.  I ordered 3 tubes 2 weeks ago. First, a Baldwin re-branded Sylvania green label long grey plate halo getr.  I liked it a lot! Still not quite the bass I was looking for. The next 2 came together, a Black long plate RCA square angled getr from 53 or 54, that didn't do much for me.  Definitely better that the supplied tube, but still weak in the bass department. And a Black long plate Baldwin yellow label re-branded Raytheon with halo getr that is the best of the lot!!  Much better bass that is tight.  Good mids and highs and decent sound stage.
> After re-reading the thread this weekend, I ordered 2 RCA clear tops to try, since several people said they worked very well in the V2 and had really good bass.  I also copied info on the different modifications recommended for these, and I'm contemplating doing that also.  Just finished up an Oak housing for the amp that incorporates an 80mm computer fan to help cool things down. This has been running for about 15 minutes and the heat sinks are not hot at all.  I can grab both sides and hold on with no notice of heat. It will be a little more involved to roll tubes, but just a couple minutes.  May have to rebuild it if I do the mods, depending on the caps I go with and where they have to be mounted to fit I may need a little more height than I have right now.  But I'll cross that road later.
> Thanks for your help.  I enjoyed reading your posts.  Jim.


 
  
 No worries bro, glad they were of some help.
  
 I have since brought my modified Bravo to the other location where I keep the unmodified unit and plugged it inline with my Schiit Modi DAC, and my Beyerdynamic DT770's. It's a bit less impressive on this setup, than listening on my low end ATH M40's (note that's not a typo - the M40's are cheap compared to the M50's). I hear a lot of top end on this setup, but noticeably less bass response. It is unclear if the less bass response is due to just having more high end or not. I am wondering what effect that modifying the output capacitors from 1000 uF to 2200 uF has on this.
  
 The main thing that moving it gave me was the ability to roll in some of my vintage Mullards (they're all in this other location). I note with some curiosity that the use of a 1957 D-getter Mullard has not produced an abundance of bass response. I have decided to leave it sit in this setup for a while and get used to it, then swap in the unmodified Bravo V2 (with a similar old Mullard in it), to see what the difference is.
  
_(I don't know if you read the sound science forum, but what we variously call burn-in, expectation bias, or just plain "getting used to something" has a noticeable effect. Whatever the source of this effect, there is a period of time required to allow our minds to "get used" to the setup before optimal results are obtained. It is equally curious to note that things usually get better with time, not worse, while things that get worse, do so immediately.)_
  
 In any case, I'm just glad it's working again hah. I still have not modified a new top piece. Yeah, that means it's sitting on the bottom plexiglas tray with no top, lol. Put another way, a topless amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Lol.


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

No top on mine at the moment either.  I built an Oak piece for it to sit in, and I incorporated an 80mm computer fan in the top blowing down on it.  After playing for over an hour, the heat sinks were cool to the touch.  So that was a good thing to find out.  Now, if it should have some heat build up to work properly, I might need to reduce the speed of the fan.  I didn't hear anything that would make me think it changed the sound though.  Have any thoughts?
 I'm anxious to get the 2 RCA clear tops I ordered Sat. night to see if they will rival the Balwin/Raytheon long black plate that I have settled on as my best tube so far.  Then I think I'll see about doing some of the mods.  Jim.


----------



## briancvrrbs

Just received my cute little Bravo V2 today, and I feel like it sounds pretty good with stock, however I'm excited to hear it upgraded with IRL510, LM317A, crosstalk mod, and Mullard tube that are all on there way. Man, I love how that blue LED looks under the tube, such a nice glow


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

WOW!!! _*WOW I Say!!!!*_  Just got 2 RCA clear tops in today.  I was leery of trying them after the long grey plate RCA I got on my original order was the least of the 3, and these are short plates instead of long plate, but I decided to follow what so many said about them as I re-read the thread last weekend.  Put the least balanced one in first (2800/2900) and I can't make myself pull it out to try the other one (2800/2800).  First few seconds, I thought it had potential.  Left it playing and came back a few minutes later and the mid-range sounded real muddy, almost distorted.  So I left it and took 3 short classes for work and came back to them. WOW!!!!!!!  It may never leave the amp.  I may just file the other one away somewhere safe in case this one dies on me! Tempted to try the two military long black plate Raytheons since I like the other Raytheon I have.  If you are on the fence about the clear tops, jump, NOW!  Jim.


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

OK, a question. Scenario: I built a housing for my Bravo V2 with an 80mm computer fan in the top blowing down on the unit, top acrylic panel removed.  After 1 1/2 hour of playing music, the heat sinks were not even warm. Do some of the components need heat to work properly, or will keeping them at room temperature extend the life of the components with no degradation to sound?  I just want to make sure I'm not hurting anything.  Thanks!  Jim.


----------



## money4me247

@Coolmeadow Kid, omg that is ballerrr!!!! sooo coool. does it fix the staticy problem when you phone is using data nearby?


----------



## razor5cl

Keeping at room temperature won't hurt sound, but it might ecxtend the life of some of the components, so your setup is good.


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

money4me247 said:


> @Coolmeadow Kid, omg that is ballerrr!!!! sooo coool. does it fix the staticy problem when you phone is using data nearby?


 
 Thanks man.  It was a quick and dirty project.  Didn't even worry about hiding the air nail holes!  All left over Quartersawn White Oak from another project.  No plywood. Don't know about the static issue.  My computer doesn't affect it, and the fan doesn't make any noise in the amp.  I need to hook up my RF unit to the amp again and see if the pop noise is still present.  It would pop if I stood between the transmitter and receiver, but go away when I sat down beside the unit.  Thought that was weird.  Never had a cell phone next to it. Microwave and 2.4 hz cordless phone system in the house hasn't affected it  I've thought if it did I could line the inside part of the housing with foil to see if that might help.
  
  
 razor5c    Thank you for confirming that.  I'd like to do the mods, but I may wait.  If the fan keeping the components cool might extend their usable life, I'll go with that for a while.
  
 Have a good weekend!  Jim.


----------



## money4me247

coolmeadow kid said:


> Thanks man.  It was a quick and dirty project.  Didn't even worry about hiding the air nail holes!  All left over Quartersawn White Oak from another project.  No plywood. Don't know about the static issue.  My computer doesn't affect it, and the fan doesn't make any noise in the amp.  I need to hook up my RF unit to the amp again and see if the pop noise is still present.  It would pop if I stood between the transmitter and receiver, but go away when I sat down beside the unit.  Thought that was weird.  Never had a cell phone next to it. Microwave and 2.4 hz cordless phone system in the house hasn't affected it  I've thought if it did I could line the inside part of the housing with foil to see if that might help.
> 
> 
> razor5c    Thank you for confirming that.  I'd like to do the mods, but I may wait.  If the fan keeping the components cool might extend their usable life, I'll go with that for a while.
> ...


 
 yea, it's only an issue when you are using mobile data nearby. smartphone 3g/4g type deal.


----------



## Troppo

Hi Head-Fi.org,
 I joined up as I am having an issue with the Bravo V3 I recently purchased. This thread has helped me diagnose some of the issues but so far I haven't seen anyone with my exact problem. Hopefully someone can provide some guidance!
  
 My amp has been cutting in and out on occasions, when it does I get a pop in my headphones followed by crackling and a reduction in volume. When this happens I notice the following :
  
 -> Red LED flickers.
 -> Bias voltage climbs above 14V on both channels (climbs to about 20V temporarily).
 -> If I blow air in the direction of the MOSFET's the sound eventually comes back and the bias voltage returns below 14V. Not sure if this is just coincidence or not, the temps are not abnormally high.
  
 My tube was originally biased at 11.5V on the left and 10.1V on the right, based on this thread I then adjusted the bias voltages to 13.5V as recommended  which seemed to make the problem more frequent.
  
 Whats going on here? Any ideas?
  
 I checked the voltage across the LED and it was about 1.8V from memory so I don't think its bad??
 I have reduced the Bias voltage back down to 11V to provide more headroom to the above 14V cut-out issue, is this going to create a problem?
  
 Thanks in advance,
 Nath.


----------



## briancvrrbs

I've already modified my Bravo V2 amp with IRL510, LM317A, and 5k trim pots. I was told that the MOSFET heatsinks would all get a bit hotter but I'm a bit worried at the amount of heat it generates.Is it normal for the IRL510s to get so hot? I also noticed the tube has gotten a bit hotter (I've set the bias on each channel to 13.5V) I can touch the MOSFET heat sinks for about two seconds until it feels like it burns and about five seconds for the tube.


----------



## briancvrrbs

I definitely see the improvements that came with these modifications though so I'm really liking them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Also, should I do that crosstalk mod even if I'm not really bothered by it? Well, I actually havent searched for the crosstalk as I use the 3.5mm output instead of RCA


----------



## Coolmeadow Kid

briancvrrbs said:


> I definitely see the improvements that came with these modifications though so I'm really liking them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I just did the crosstalk mod on mine....first mod I've done on it.  I'm using my desktop computer headphone out, I know, I know, not the best thing to do, but the level is set at or below midway. I used my audio card's balance to check it the other day.  Not only did both sides keep playing before, the sound got very distorted.  Just hooked it up, and doing the same thing was crystal clear and changed sides like changing the balance should do.  And I'd swear the sound is cleaner/clearer over all with normal balance set.  Listening to Pentatonix Daft Punk Medley right now.  So clean, and this is a YouTube video version! 
 Do the mod.  Make sure you have some insulated wire to use.  I think what I used is probably 22 guage I had on hand.  Cut to length, strip a small part off each end. Tin both ends with solder.  Touch to the contact point and touch with solder gun just long enough to melt solder. Just takes a second.  Be sure to hold wire still while it cools to make sure you have a good joint. Then go to the other end and repeat.  Oh man, Pentatonix Love Again is on.  Gotta go!  Jim.


----------



## UmustBKidn

coolmeadow kid said:


> No top on mine at the moment either.  I built an Oak piece for it to sit in, and I incorporated an 80mm computer fan in the top blowing down on it.  After playing for over an hour, the heat sinks were cool to the touch.  So that was a good thing to find out.  Now, if it should have some heat build up to work properly, I might need to reduce the speed of the fan.  I didn't hear anything that would make me think it changed the sound though.  Have any thoughts?
> I'm anxious to get the 2 RCA clear tops I ordered Sat. night to see if they will rival the Balwin/Raytheon long black plate that I have settled on as my best tube so far.  Then I think I'll see about doing some of the mods.  Jim.


 
  
 Well, if you're using a computer fan, likely it's running on a DC power supply. That ought to produce less noise, if any. I use a Thermaltake USB fan, and I do not hear any RFI noise as a result of placing the unit behind my amp. (I don't remove the top of my stock amp for cooling purposes - the fan blowing from the rear is sufficient).


----------



## UmustBKidn

coolmeadow kid said:


> WOW!!! _*WOW I Say!!!!*_  Just got 2 RCA clear tops in today.  I was leery of trying them after the long grey plate RCA I got on my original order was the least of the 3, and these are short plates instead of long plate, but I decided to follow what so many said about them as I re-read the thread last weekend.  Put the least balanced one in first (2800/2900) and I can't make myself pull it out to try the other one (2800/2800).  First few seconds, I thought it had potential.  Left it playing and came back a few minutes later and the mid-range sounded real muddy, almost distorted.  So I left it and took 3 short classes for work and came back to them. WOW!!!!!!!  It may never leave the amp.  I may just file the other one away somewhere safe in case this one dies on me! Tempted to try the two military long black plate Raytheons since I like the other Raytheon I have.  If you are on the fence about the clear tops, jump, NOW!  Jim.


 
  
 Hahahaha nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Yeah, its kind of amazing how much improvement you can get just by rolling tubes in the stock amp. I've been posting about that for about the last year.
  
 Now if you rewind about a year and read how many tubes I ended up buying and rolling through this little amp, you'll probably get a good laugh. Or maybe just understand why I did.
  
 What I'm still kind of curious about though, is the loss of bottom end on the modified amp. Not sure what to think about that yet. I may end up changing the output caps back to better quality 1000 uF units just to see what happens.


----------



## UmustBKidn

coolmeadow kid said:


> OK, a question. Scenario: I built a housing for my Bravo V2 with an 80mm computer fan in the top blowing down on the unit, top acrylic panel removed.  After 1 1/2 hour of playing music, the heat sinks were not even warm. Do some of the components need heat to work properly, or will keeping them at room temperature extend the life of the components with no degradation to sound?  I just want to make sure I'm not hurting anything.  Thanks!  Jim.


 
  
 The only component that requires heat to run properly, is the tube. Part of the reason for the short delay on startup of a tube amp, is for the heater within the tube to reach operating temperature. That happens pretty quickly (10-15 sec), so the circuit kicks in and starts producing sound after that happens.
  
 That being said, I don't think you could cool it enough with the fan setup above to degrade tube performance. I didn't go to quite the same effort to cool mine - the fan I linked above stands alone behind my amp (I use two of them, one for each amp), and I keep the output control set to about 2/3rds. Thats enough to bring the heat sinks down to a temp that allows me to touch them while operating. So mine probably operates somewhat warmer than yours does. Just get some air moving over the amp seems to be plenty.
  
 I think your setup is pretty awesome (even if it was a quick job), but it's probably overkill... for those considering a fan, the aforementioned Thermaltake USB fan is probably plenty (and it keeps my modified amp cool also, with the stock heat sinks).


----------



## UmustBKidn

coolmeadow kid said:


> Thanks man.  It was a quick and dirty project.  Didn't even worry about hiding the air nail holes!  All left over Quartersawn White Oak from another project.  No plywood. Don't know about the static issue.  My computer doesn't affect it, and the fan doesn't make any noise in the amp.  I need to hook up my RF unit to the amp again and see if the pop noise is still present.  It would pop if I stood between the transmitter and receiver, but go away when I sat down beside the unit.  Thought that was weird.  Never had a cell phone next to it. Microwave and 2.4 hz cordless phone system in the house hasn't affected it  I've thought if it did I could line the inside part of the housing with foil to see if that might help.
> 
> 
> razor5c    Thank you for confirming that.  I'd like to do the mods, but I may wait.  If the fan keeping the components cool might extend their usable life, I'll go with that for a while.
> ...


 
  
 My bravo's are both susceptible to RFI. The only thing I keep near mine that causes noticeable RFI is my cell phone. I can tell when I have an incoming phone call or text, because I start to hear curious noises, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm sure that occurs for lack of any shielding on the amp.


----------



## UmustBKidn

troppo said:


> Hi Head-Fi.org,
> I joined up as I am having an issue with the Bravo V3 I recently purchased. This thread has helped me diagnose some of the issues but so far I haven't seen anyone with my exact problem. Hopefully someone can provide some guidance!
> 
> My amp has been cutting in and out on occasions, when it does I get a pop in my headphones followed by crackling and a reduction in volume. When this happens I notice the following :
> ...


 
  
 I don't own a V3, but I would suggest adding a cooling fan - especially if it seems to make the amp work.


----------



## UmustBKidn

briancvrrbs said:


> I've already modified my Bravo V2 amp with IRL510, LM317A, and 5k trim pots. I was told that the MOSFET heatsinks would all get a bit hotter but I'm a bit worried at the amount of heat it generates.Is it normal for the IRL510s to get so hot? I also noticed the tube has gotten a bit hotter (I've set the bias on each channel to 13.5V) I can touch the MOSFET heat sinks for about two seconds until it feels like it burns and about five seconds for the tube.


 
  
 I haven't attempted bias mods on mine yet.
  
 Every thread I've read on modding includes the caution that the FETs will get hotter. Some people use bigger heat sinks, some mount the chips off the board on huge heat sinks. I'm just not that ambitious. I prefer to use that Thermaltake USB fan. For $11 bucks its the cheapest easiest fix, and doesn't introduce any noise that I can detect.
  
 Not sure why the tube is hotter, unless perhaps it's just proximity to everything else being hotter. But the little fan would put that all to rest.


----------



## UmustBKidn

briancvrrbs said:


> I definitely see the improvements that came with these modifications though so I'm really liking them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have mixed feelings about that mod. I could not hear a difference after performing that mod. And I had already replaced the FET's and caps by the time I did that one.
  
 The only mod that has a really noticeable impact is replacing the MOSFETs. The rest of them seem rather subtle.


----------



## rwpritchett

Hello all,

I've been a V1 owner for about a month now and I've rolled about a dozen tubes so far. I've balanced the left-right pots to ~13.5V. Two quick questions:

#1 Is it normal that the blue LED remains lit after powering off the amp?

#2 I get a slight buzzing in my left channel when music is not playing. It's probably there while music is playing too, but gets drowned out by the other sounds coming through. What component causes this and any recommended fixes?

BTW, some tube notes: my favorites are a 1970 Amperex orange globe A-frame and a 1985 6N23P Voskhod Rocket logo, ECC86 works in this amp, ECC85 does not work


----------



## Didhefocus

How long dues the LED stay on? A few seconds is normal while power supply caps discharge.

I found that hum or buzzing can be from nearby electronic devices. Try moving the V1 around to find the best spot. A bad cable could also be the problem.


----------



## rwpritchett

The LED stays on for a few minutes. Maybe 5 min? I think the LED drains the caps eventually and that's the only way to get it to go out. If I take the tube out after turning the amp off the LED turns off, however the thing will stay charged: If I put the tube back in, say 24h after being turned off, the blue LED will illuminate until it discharges everything.

For the buzz, it's not from an electric device as I've used the amp here, there, and everywhere and it always has it. Maybe the switching PSU is to blame?


----------



## rwpritchett

Ok, now that I'm home, I timed it and the blue LED remains on for over 10 minutes, slowly dimming as it drains whatever power is feeding it.

I take it this is abnormal?


----------



## Didhefocus

rwpritchett said:


> Ok, now that I'm home, I timed it and the blue LED remains on for over 10 minutes, slowly dimming as it drains whatever power is feeding it.
> 
> I take it this is abnormal?


 
 I'm home now also and It's definitely not normal. Mine is a V3, the same except for the EQ, stays on only briefly but goes dim quickly. Maximum 5 seconds.
 I would now tend to believe your hum problem and the LED are related. I would guess that the external power supply is not the culprit or you would have heard the hum in both channels.
  
 Have you done any mods yet? if not... replacing the power caps would be a good starting point for your repair and simultaneous mod.


----------



## rwpritchett

No, haven't done any mods yet. I don't have any experience in electrical de-soldering or cap replacement. I wouldn't know where to start in tracking down what makes that LED stay on after turning off. Anyone familiar with the PCB traces?


----------



## mcandmar

The amount of time the led runs really depends on the amount of capacitance in the power supply and the current the LED consumes.  What power supply are you using?


----------



## Didhefocus

rwpritchett said:


> No, haven't done any mods yet. I don't have any experience in electrical de-soldering or cap replacement. I wouldn't know where to start in tracking down what makes that LED stay on after turning off. Anyone familiar with the PCB traces?


----------



## rwpritchett

mcandmar said:


> The amount of time the led runs really depends on the amount of capacitance in the power supply and the current the LED consumes.  What power supply are you using?




It's the stock PS: Juyn 24V 1.5A switching

But like I said, it does this even if it's not plugged into the power supply.


----------



## Didhefocus

rwpritchett said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've been a V1 owner for about a month now and I've rolled about a dozen tubes so far. I've balanced the left-right pots to ~13.5V. Two quick questions:
> 
> ...


 
 As for the recommended 13.5v, I use that as a starting point but all my tubes were different as to which voltage sounded best. Left and Right were never the same either.


----------



## Kaies

I have a Bravo V3 and it's stopped working. I was wondering if you fine folks could help me out a little.
  
 Firstly it started to turn off and on really quickly, the tube was flashing, I thought maybe the power plug was loose, yet it was not.
 I re-seated the the tube a few times and then it was working for a bit, the tube was light up for half and hour but I didn't test any audio output.
  
 It started to flash a little more so I re-seated the tube once more, but then it wouldn't light up. I tested the V3 without the tube and the LED were
 still lighting up. But eventually after more testing the LED don't light up any more.
  
 I've ordered a replacement tube, but I have a feeling something on the board has gone faulty instead.
 Any one have any ideas?


----------



## UmustBKidn

rwpritchett said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've been a V1 owner for about a month now and I've rolled about a dozen tubes so far. I've balanced the left-right pots to ~13.5V. Two quick questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 #1: Yes. I have two V2's and both do this. It's perfectly normal.
  
 #2: Only one model of the Bravo amps has any shielding at all, and the V1 definitely has none. So it is a magnet for RFI. You probably have a transformer or other electronic device too close to the amp. Move things around while listening to the amp and you'll find a spot where it goes away. If that doesn't work, then you most likely have a bad cable somewhere.


----------



## amigomatt

Hi everyone,
  
 I'm using a Bravo Audio Ocean but I seem to be getting clipping/distortion when the volume reaches about 11 o'clock with any pop/rock material, especially in the bass.  I've have tried tube rolling (the stock tube and I also have a old Mullard and Telefunken), but the problem persists.  With my easier to drive cans, that volume position is more than enough, but it isn't quite enough for my harder to drive cans, such as HE400, K240 DF and K702s to listen to music at a loudish volume without clipping.  This is quite annoying and I was sondering if anyone else has this issue or can suggest a remedy?  Is it down to the tube or will this happen whatever tube is in the amp?  If I can't sort it out, I think I'll be upgrading to something with more undistorted power.
  
 Thanks for any advice in advance..


----------



## Didhefocus

amigomatt said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm using a Bravo Audio Ocean but I seem to be getting clipping/distortion when the volume reaches about 11 o'clock with any pop/rock material, especially in the bass.  I've have tried tube rolling (the stock tube and I also have a old Mullard and Telefunken), but the problem persists.  With my easier to drive cans, that volume position is more than enough, but it isn't quite enough for my harder to drive cans, such as HE400, K240 DF and K702s to listen to music at a loudish volume without clipping.  This is quite annoying and I was sondering if anyone else has this issue or can suggest a remedy?  Is it down to the tube or will this happen whatever tube is in the amp?  If I can't sort it out, I think I'll be upgrading to something with more undistorted power.
> 
> Thanks for any advice in advance..


 

 The tube won't affect the output power much since it isn't in the output stage. Adjusting the bias voltage on the tube may help but I don't know if the Ocean is adjustable. You may have just reached the amp's normal limit with the cans you mentioned.


----------



## interface95

Hej
 I just found this thread while looking for an afordable amp for my old akgs.
 I alread read the first 7 pages, but instead of reading the other 160 pages it would be verynic to write i little sum up..
 Not only for me - also for all the other new reader of this thread.
 Right now now, I'm shure if I should go for the v2 or the ocean one.
  
 Could you help me a little bit out?
 Also about costs after buying, better tube, lifetime.
  
 I would appreciate somethig like that.
  
 thx
 -alex


----------



## Cirric

To Noxlord. The Bravo V3 has rubber feet, They are not sticky enough IMHO. I am going to replace with larger, stickier feet. Will also improve the ventilation.


----------



## money4me247

cirric said:


> To Noxlord. The Bravo V3 has rubber feet, They are not sticky enough IMHO. I am going to replace with larger, stickier feet. Will also improve the ventilation.


 
 stickier feet also make the amp sound more liquid... like honey!


----------



## Cirric

To Money4ME247. That's an idea! Use honey to stick the V3 in place!!


----------



## Cirric

Has anyone else had a problem with the right and left channels being reversed? I noticed this while watching videos where the problem was obvious.


----------



## money4me247

cirric said:


> Has anyone else had a problem with the right and left channels being reversed? I noticed this while watching videos where the problem was obvious.




it was like tat on my model too. not rly a problem since u just swap the cables


----------



## Cirric

Right now I am using 1/8" cable. I can get a 18" to red/white RCA and then use the RCA inputs. Thanks for steering me!


----------



## Didhefocus

The RCA jacks are reversed the mini plug is correct. I removed and put them back in correctly.


----------



## altrocksnp

Just got my Bravo Ocean!!
 Sound is pretty fantastic, and it's my first tube amp. I have noticed that you get a lot of popping/static if you put your phone near it! Completely goes away when I move my phone away . Some headphones have more obvious interference than others too.
  
 One question, when I first turned it on, I had my Soundmagic hp-200's plugged in and there was a pop. My headphones seem fine to me, but I'm guessing that I should turn it on without anything plugged in?


----------



## Cirric

It is always a good idea to turn off your amp


----------



## 3ternalDr4gon

My V2 just came in today, and when pairing it with my totl CIEMs I'm a little underwhelmed when it's paired with my X5 as it seems to lack clarity in some of the micro details.
  
 Thinking about purchasing this, should it help things a little?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-NEW-JJ-Tesla-12AU7-ECC82-Vacuum-Tube-TESTED-/290745885930?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43b1ce24ea
  
 Also, is there a special procedure to pull out the tube, or do we just yank it out?


----------



## Cirric

Hi Dr4gan, You could try putting on some surgical gloves to keep oil off the glass surface and increase fiction.


----------



## RFtech53

USAstrat,
  
 Thanks for your post. My wife gave me a V2 for Christmas today along with AudioTechnica ATH-M50's. I love the little amp, but I was also getting the intermittent ticking noise. My cell phone has only been about 10 inches away. I'll have to try what you said to see if it goes away.
  
 My background has been over 40 years in electronic repair and engineering. I spent 20+ years repairing electronic musical instruments and was authorized by companies such as Fender, Marshall, Peavey and others. In all those years, I've heard tube amps do some crazy things ... but never rhythmic ticking.     
  
 I'm hoping getting the cell phone away takes care of things. I'm even a licensed FCC General Class RadioTelephone Operator, but don't know if cell phone interference ever would have occurred to me.


----------



## Cirric

@RFetch53, I am an extra  class radio operator for over 15 years. As you know, cell phones adjust their power output depending on what it needs to get a strong enough signal to the cell antenna.
  They often operate with only a few milliwatts of effective radiated power.Hard to see how that would allow for any significant power to get past the shield on the input wire. Of course if any signal  DID get in then it would be at the earliest stage of the amp. Worth a try to move the phone or try turning it off and see if it has any effect. (That is what keeps us interested in the hobby, no?)


----------



## RFtech53

Cirric,
  
 You are so right about exploring effects in the hobby. And in keeping with that tradition, the first thing I did today was to put my phone right next to the amp. The weird pops,hisses, and ticks came through strong ... listening without any input. Then as I moved my phone away, you could hear the noises go into remission. It took getting my cell phone (a Galaxy S4) about 3 foot away before the noises became totally incoherent.
  
 I work as an electronics engineering technician in a factory that produces avionics and military equipment. You'd think I would have thought of my cell phone causing the noise especially since the V2's circuitry  is in an open,  totally un-shielded enclosure. Just goes to show that you can still teach an old dog of 61 years, new tricks.
  
 Thanks to this forum, I'm still learning. 
  
 Robert / N0ZNJ


----------



## Cirric

Hi my friend, 61 looks like a spring chicken to me (62 here). I'm glad the amp problem has been solved! Mine is a Bravo V3 with the 3 band eq. I really like it.
 73,
 Ric N1YLE


----------



## BGRoberts

glad to see some other 60somethings on this forum!


----------



## natra084

Hi this anybody know how much power the bravo ocean puts out.


----------



## natra084

Hi do you guys have any recommendations for some tubes for the bravo ocean.


----------



## MUSICCURE

My curiosity got the best of me so I ordered a used Bravo Ocean amp.  I wondered if a cheap dac and this amp could keep up or outperform my E17/E09k set up.  Along with the Bravo Ocean, I ordered the Behringer UCA202 (dac) for 30$.  In comparison, I paid about 140$ for my E17. 
  
 I've only listened to this combo for one day, but I'm really impressed with how much power and control the Bravo Ocean exhibits.  Setup with the Behringer was easy with no hiccups.  I'm using the DT 770/80 and the sub bass is unreal.  There's something about the decay and the way drums hit that's just satisfying.  My worries about loud hissing were put to rest.   I particularly enjoyed Fleetwood Mac's Dreams.  I'm glad I took the chance on a tube amp because I already like what I'm hearing.  Now, I have a cheaper alternative to my previous setup with no perceived loss in quality.


----------



## pezhore

I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but I prior to performing the crosstalk mod on my newly arrived Bravo V2, I was getting significant distortion sounds in the right side when panned to the left, and distortion/music in the left side when panned all the way to the right. After the crosstalk mod, the distortion in the right has gone completely, but I'm still not getting complete isolation of my left channel when panning to the right.
  
 Any ideas what this could be attributed to? Suggestions for addressing it?


----------



## amigomatt

Hi guys,
  
 I posted earlier in this thread that my Bravo reaches clipping/distortion level before my preferred volume on a couple of my harder to drive cans and I was wondering if replacing the tube with a 12ax7 variant would increase my volume range as I read that the 12ax7 tubes exhibit more gain than the 12au7.  I also read that they perform different duties as well but haven't quite got to the bottom of that mystery yet being a noob where valves are concerned.  Can anyone help me?


----------



## Mhumbach

What would anyone recommended for the Bravo Ocean. I was thinking between the AKG K702 or the Beyerdynamic DT 880


----------



## amigomatt

mhumbach said:


> What would anyone recommended for the Bravo Ocean. I was thinking between the AKG K702 or the Beyerdynamic DT 880


 
 Between those two, I would recommend the Beyerdynamic as the 32ohm or 250ohm would be much easier to drive than the K702.  I found the K702 really picky in terms of amping.  I only kept them for a couple of weeks.


----------



## Mhumbach

amigomatt said:


> Between those two, I would recommend the Beyerdynamic as the 32ohm or 250ohm would be much easier to drive than the K702.  I found the K702 really picky in terms of amping.  I only kept them for a couple of weeks.


 
  Thanks for the recommendation. I see you have the HE400's how does the ocean do powering those? I know its a completely different sound just curious.


----------



## amigomatt

mhumbach said:


> amigomatt said:
> 
> 
> > Between those two, I would recommend the Beyerdynamic as the 32ohm or 250ohm would be much easier to drive than the K702.  I found the K702 really picky in terms of amping.  I only kept them for a couple of weeks.
> ...


I would say that, despite it sounding smooth and warm, which is good for the he400, it still doesn't have quite enough oomph to drive them to loud enough levels for me without distorting with some music.


----------



## Mhumbach

amigomatt said:


> I would say that, despite it sounding smooth and warm, which is good for the he400, it still doesn't have quite enough oomph to drive them to loud enough levels for me without distorting with some music.


 
 Sounds good thanks. I know my turntable amp would be able to power all these but i'm going to use the ocean to power my digital collection. Ill keep my search up for a suitable phone.


----------



## amigomatt

mhumbach said:


> amigomatt said:
> 
> 
> > I would say that, despite it sounding smooth and warm, which is good for the he400, it still doesn't have quite enough oomph to drive them to loud enough levels for me without distorting with some music.
> ...


 
 Yeah, they power my Grado SR80, NAD HP50, Sennheiser HD598 etc all wonderfully.  I love having the option of that tube sound as well.  Good luck!


----------



## UmustBKidn

rftech53 said:


> USAstrat,
> 
> Thanks for your post. My wife gave me a V2 for Christmas today along with AudioTechnica ATH-M50's. I love the little amp, but I was also getting the intermittent ticking noise. My cell phone has only been about 10 inches away. I'll have to try what you said to see if it goes away.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Bravo amps are completely un-shielded, so you should expect that any kind of transmitter, like your cell phone, will induce RFI in the unit. This should come as no surprise to an electronic technician. There is nothing wrong with the amplifier.
  
 Personally, I like the indication that comes from the RFI because it tells me I'm about to get a phone call or a text message.
  
 Move the phone a couple feet away and it will stop.


----------



## UmustBKidn

pezhore said:


> I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but I prior to performing the crosstalk mod on my newly arrived Bravo V2, I was getting significant distortion sounds in the right side when panned to the left, and distortion/music in the left side when panned all the way to the right. After the crosstalk mod, the distortion in the right has gone completely, but I'm still not getting complete isolation of my left channel when panning to the right.
> 
> Any ideas what this could be attributed to? Suggestions for addressing it?


 
  
 You may not have totally cut the circuit traces. Take a close look at the board with a magnifying glass.


----------



## UmustBKidn

amigomatt said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I posted earlier in this thread that my Bravo reaches clipping/distortion level before my preferred volume on a couple of my harder to drive cans and I was wondering if replacing the tube with a 12ax7 variant would increase my volume range as I read that the 12ax7 tubes exhibit more gain than the 12au7.  I also read that they perform different duties as well but haven't quite got to the bottom of that mystery yet being a noob where valves are concerned.  Can anyone help me?


 

 No. Clipping means you're pushing an amp beyond its design limits. Replacing a tube will not eliminate clipping. Try using headphones with a lower impedance. Or try buying a better amp (suggest Bottlehead Crack).


----------



## RFtech53

I moved the phone away from the V2 the next day after my original post, and as you previously posted, the noise went completely away. 
  
 No surprise at all from this FCC licensed technician ... though it's somewhat natural to suspect the new piece of equipment when you've never heard the same noises from anything else. Then again, what other amplifiers around a house are so open and un-shielded.
  
 I'd even written the manufacturer, and he'd suggested sending me a new power brick, suspecting it was the likely source of the ticking and other weird noises.
  
 Thanks again for the heads-up.


----------



## Evshrug

RFtech,
Bravo probably suggested the power supply because a few of them had grounding issues and DID introduce background noise, but as a different kind of technician (phone software/hardware troubleshooting... All kinds of technicians in today's world!), I can confidently say that sometimes previous experience biases us into misdiagnosis. I can only hope that by the time I have as much experience as you and Cirric, I'm as gracious and curious about new things as you two!

If I recall correctly, GSM cellular like AT&T uses (and other companies) produces a little more noise, but my CDMA cellular Verizon iPhone will still cause my tube amp (Single Ended Triode tube amp, not a bravo) to produce buzzing, squeals, and clicks. I think I experimented once but I forget if the issue still happens when I turn off cellular data...

If you've got the soldering experience and enjoy tinkering with benefits, the early part of this thread is rich with mod ideas and their effects. I particularly would point out JudgeBuff's posts (just don't call him Buffy!). Larger capacitors, film resistors, trim pots, etc.


----------



## amigomatt

umustbkidn said:


> amigomatt said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys,
> ...


 
 Thanks for the straight up answer.  As it's not my main amp, I'll just keep it for my appropriate headphones when I want that taste of tube sound.


----------



## UmustBKidn

evshrug said:


> ...
> If I recall correctly, GSM cellular like AT&T uses (and other companies) produces a little more noise, but my CDMA cellular Verizon iPhone will still cause my tube amp (Single Ended Triode tube amp, not a bravo) to produce buzzing, squeals, and clicks. I think I experimented once but I forget if the issue still happens when I turn off cellular data...
> 
> If you've got the soldering experience and enjoy tinkering with benefits, the early part of this thread is rich with mod ideas and their effects. I particularly would point out JudgeBuff's posts (just don't call him Buffy!). Larger capacitors, film resistors, trim pots, etc.


 
  
 1) I use T-mobile, and when I had a Bravo V2 at work, my cell phone was kept within a foot or so of the amp. I could always tell when I was about to get a text message from one of my kids, or a phone call, because there would be a distinct pattern of noise audible over the top of whatever song I was listening to. The closer the phone was to the amp, the louder it got. At 3 feet away, the sound was practically inaudible.
  
 2) I have two Bravo V2's, one modified with most of the enhancements listed earlier in this thread, and one stock. I can tell you right now that for the most part, the modifications ARE NOT worth the effort. Some day when I have the energy I shall attempt to create a new post about my adventure with modifying one of my V2's. For now suffice it to say that my modified V2 is more accurate, but has lost some of the bottom end, and was much more expensive to modify than it was worth. I am guessing that one of the capacitor mods is probably to blame, but that's only a guess.
  
 When I get REALLY ambitious one day, I may replace the caps with something else, to see if I can reclaim some of the bottom end that I lost. Don't hold your breath waiting though


----------



## XipeTotec

I bought a V2, can't wait for it. Going to make some tweaks, anyway I would ask a method to connect it to my laptop. Is it worth to buy a DAC like FiiO?


----------



## UmustBKidn

xipetotec said:


> I bought a V2, can't wait for it. Going to make some tweaks, anyway I would ask a method to connect it to my laptop. Is it worth to buy a DAC like FiiO?


 
  
 Yes. Any DAC will improve the sound. Some think the DAC is a much larger sonic improvement than the amp. Compared to just amplifying an ipod, phone, or laptop, I have to agree.
  
 Now, IMO when we're talking about budget systems, you want to keep the price down (otherwise you'd be using a totally different amp too). I have used a Schiit Modi DAC with both of my Bravo V2's, and it's a perfectly good DAC to drive this amp.
  
 (I'm not big on any Fiio gear; the only Fiio item I ever bought was junk, so I've avoided them since).


----------



## XipeTotec

umustbkidn said:


> Yes. Any DAC will improve the sound. Some think the DAC is a much larger sonic improvement than the amp. Compared to just amplifying an ipod, phone, or laptop, I have to agree.
> 
> Now, IMO when we're talking about budget systems, you want to keep the price down (otherwise you'd be using a totally different amp too). I have used a Schiit Modi DAC with both of my Bravo V2's, and it's a perfectly good DAC to drive this amp.
> 
> (I'm not big on any Fiio gear; the only Fiio item I ever bought was junk, so I've avoided them since).


 
  
 Yes I was taking a loot to the Schiit Website and I like the products they offer. I took a look on the specs and they seems good, on paper. I think I'll give em a try, I must only understand if I should buy from the US website or from an European reseller.


----------



## XipeTotec

I was trying to figure out something about tubes, anyway.
 I am searching ebay for some good deals and I'm seeing they use different codes to mark different kind of tubes. So, I'm just trying to understand for example, the difference between a *12AU7A and a 12AU7 *and the difference between *ECC82 6189 5814A*.
  
 Any tips for the newbie?


----------



## XipeTotec

Well I'm finally trying my little new V2 amp.
 I almost immediately changeg the stock tube. I think it sounds decent overall but on stoner rock songs the instruments are blurred and I can't appreciate the voice. Even if basses and highs are defined, mid ranges are totally killed.
  
 I am trying these new tubes now, a Philips:

  

  
 And a jugoslavian International Servicemaster Electron Tube


  
 I can say they improve greatly the amplifier though I prefer the second one. I think it can manage better the whole amplifier.
  

  
 I would like to try an RCA clear top.


----------



## UmustBKidn

xipetotec said:


> I was trying to figure out something about tubes, anyway.
> I am searching ebay for some good deals and I'm seeing they use different codes to mark different kind of tubes. So, I'm just trying to understand for example, the difference between a *12AU7A and a 12AU7 *and the difference between *ECC82 6189 5814A*.
> 
> Any tips for the newbie?


 
  
 Sorry bro, was offline for a few weeks.
  
 12AU7 and 12AU7A is basically the same tube. You will not hear a difference. I think the "A" model is just something that came out later.
  
 ECC82 is the European marking for a 12AU7. That's all.
  
 As for the others: there are numerous similar tubes for this particular family. The best reference I've seen to easily/quickly explain those is Brent Jesse's website here.


----------



## ArnieG

My first post! New to the tube amp scene. My V2 should be delivered tomorrow. Excited to try some different tubes in it☺


----------



## god-bluff

Just bought a second hand Bravo Ocean. However it was dead on arrival. Tested it and it does seem to the valve. Any suggestions for a suitable replacement ?  12AU7 I believe.  
  
*Edit:* working fine, looking forward to trying my first taste of valve amp with my phones.


----------



## god-bluff

Great little amp but I wish they'd put a gain control. Pretty useless connected to my CD Player/ CD receiver as volume is ear shatteringly loud at 1/16 to 1/8 volume.A bit uncontrollable to say the least. I cant imagine what the rest of the volume range is for when attached to a 'proper' HiFi output; the Ocean can surely drive any headphone out there !
  
 Decided to use it as a bedside unit fed by by iPod Classic or Sony A15 (which has a particularly feeble line out) and it seems great for this purpose whilst looking pretty cool.


----------



## Armillary

I got one of these a few months back and ended up doing the most recommended mods (crosstalk and replaced the fets). Lately I've been having a bit of a strange issue. I've been hearing a bit of noise when the amp is on, which happens pretty often when I have my phone around it but now its just about all the time. I've also noticed that the audio doesn't cut entirely when I switch it off, a bit of quiet but audible sound seems to still come through for a bit.


----------



## Didhefocus

armillary said:


> I got one of these a few months back and ended up doing the most recommended mods (crosstalk and replaced the fets). Lately I've been having a bit of a strange issue. I've been hearing a bit of noise when the amp is on, which happens pretty often when I have my phone around it but now its just about all the time. I've also noticed that the audio doesn't cut entirely when I switch it off, a bit of quiet but audible sound seems to still come through for a bit.


 

 It's normal to hear some interference from nearby noisy devices like cell phones since the circuit board isn't designed with an integrated ground plane or a metal enclosure. A drawback of the cool-looking open design. Extra efficient headphones and/or a very loud input device could cause low level signals to get through even when the power is off. Your issues as described seem to be quite normal.


----------



## Didhefocus

arnieg said:


> My first post! New to the tube amp scene. My V2 should be delivered tomorrow. Excited to try some different tubes in it☺


 

 Welcome and good luck with your new hobby!
  
 Just remember, this isn't really a tube amp, it's a hybrid. It has a tube input stage and MOSFET transistor output stage. Still, you should be able to experience some great sound (with the proper mods)!


----------



## Armillary

didhefocus said:


> It's normal to hear some interference from nearby noisy devices like cell phones since the circuit board isn't designed with an integrated ground plane or a metal enclosure. A drawback of the cool-looking open design. Extra efficient headphones and/or a very loud input device could cause low level signals to get through even when the power is off. Your issues as described seem to be quite normal.


 
 Good to hear, I'd thought I may have messed up the mods at some point or something.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Can someone please list the tube models compatible on the bravo ocean besides the known 12au7?


----------



## Faber65

soundsgoodtome said:


> Can someone please list the tube models compatible on the bravo ocean besides the known 12au7?




Maybe some good directions can be found here.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/515848/safe-tube-replacements-chart-along-with-recommendations
But surfing in internet can result in even more specific directions.


----------



## Peeble

Hey all, so my V3 seems to be having some issue. It's un-modded, had it for a few years now, and suddenly I came home and turned it on and I only get sound out of my left ear. I've confirmed it's an issue with the amp (tried other headphones/sources). Did a bit of googling but I couldn't find anyone who has had something similar. Anyone have any ideas what could be the cause of this?


----------



## rwpritchett

It could be the tube. Did you try another?


----------



## Peeble

Unfortunately I don't have any others to test with.


----------



## Peeble

To give an update in case anyone else has the problem, changing the tube fixed it.


----------



## shabtronic

Hi there folks
  
 I'm a bit late to the bravo audio party - but hey I did finally manage to make it!
  
  
 I got the Bravo V1 - with Russian tube about 3 days ago - and it's blown my mind - sounds so damn good. I'm using Senn's HD419 with the open vent mod and it sounds amazing - monster bass that is detailed and tight without killing the tops. Even my crappy AC97 motherboard sound card sounds musical with the damn thing - it is amazing.
  
 Until today I switched on my little wonder amp - and bam - started pulsing - a 1 second cycle - the pulse is the LEDs starting from dim then growing bright (both LEDs) over a 1 sec period then starting again, repeating forever!. I did attempt to read every message on this post - and I found a few with the pulse issue - but no solution or reason for it. Because it's xmas time and sending it back from UK to HK is a no no, I suspected it was the power supply - I have no clue about electronics - so I jumped in and tried a 27V 2A switched power supply I had (creative labs speaker PS), using that it goes thru it's pulse cycle 7 times - then eventually works - sounds good again. Yaaay!
  
 Does anybody know the impact of using a 27v supply on the thing - or even how to fix the pulsing - it seems like some sort of feedback loop (I'm guessing wildly here !!) that gets stuck. But before this happend it was amazing and I really want the thing to work again!
  
 many thanks
  
 Shabby!


----------



## Cirric

Shabby, I know your pain! My first V3 (same electrical design) did the same thing but with a little different pulse. A low quick 3 burst pulse in about a quarter of a second that lasted about 1 second before repeating. Removed the top plex ond tryed turning rhe 2 tube bias pots. (Factory said to try this.) Did not fix the problem. Did the same as you, reading through the posts. Bought some new parts but never put them in (nerve problems in my hands.) Finally bough a second unit which sounded great until it developed the same trouble as the first unit. I resorted to using a Fiio E6 until the Bravo is repaired. But I miss that tube sound! I will continue to follow this thread hoping for a fix. Good luck!!


----------



## shabtronic

Hi Cirric
  
 Yeah - the damn thing it's killing me - that sound is so good !
  
 I've contacted the Seller in HK and they suggested trying a  new tube - I don't think its that. I contacted Bravo Audio but have not heard back from them yet. With the 27v it does work after a few pulse cycles - but I'm reluctant to use it - it feels like it's "rigged to blow" lol. I'm not going to get another unit - because it feels like cheap power + cheap components - and if my mains is dirty or whatever caused the problem - it's just going to happen again. I'd like to find out what the cause is (cheap caps? cheap PS) and fix it at the root.
  
 The sound so good - it feels like I've just set sail on a lifelong quest to fix the thing 
  
 Shabby


----------



## Didhefocus

shabtronic said:


> Hi there folks
> 
> I'm a bit late to the bravo audio party - but hey I did finally manage to make it!
> 
> ...


 

 My V3 didn't pulse but after about a year it started shutting down when it warmed up after a minute or so. It turned out to be the LED under the tube. I just piggy-backed another LED underneath so I'm not sure if it was a bad LED or just a bad solder joint.
  
 About the 27 volt power, while 3 volts difference isn't much It could put extra stress on tightly spec'd components such as capacitors rated at 25volts. During my modding I made sure all capacitor voltage ratings were a little higher than stock.


----------



## shabtronic

Hi Didhefocus
  
 yes I looked at that first 25V cap - I guess that's a power smoothing function or something (I have no idea really just guessing!)
  
 Thx for the info on the LED. That's one of the thing I was thinking of doing - just upgrade all the components and hope it makes the thing more robust! But I have no idea about electronics or how the thing works really so I guess doing that could break its wonderful sound?
  
  
 Shabby


----------



## Didhefocus

I was impressed with the sound with no mods at first but when I read about the crosstalk distortion and was able to identify it I couldn't NOT hear it. It then sounded terrible to me until I changed the output MOSFETs from IRF630 to IRL510. If you do only 1 mod, do this one, you won't regret it!
 The 2 LEDs are part of the power circuit but only the red one is critical, I wouldn't change it unless it goes bad.


----------



## shabtronic

Interesting! thx for the info - it's great to see a healthy mod vibe with this device.
  
 Mine sounds really nice out of the box - I have the electroharmonix tube 6922EH - and it sounds wonderful. I write DSP software and all that jazz so I know a little about sound - and what the device sounds like it's doing is: a lowpass filter at 10-12khz, some compression and some some sigmoid type distortion (to recreate the highs lost from the LPF) - that's what it sounds like - it's probably not doing that but some other analytical voodoo magic that the tubes do!
  
 Shabby


----------



## Mike12345678

didhefocus said:


> I was impressed with the sound with no mods at first but when I read about the crosstalk distortion and was able to identify it I couldn't NOT hear it. It then sounded terrible to me until I changed the output MOSFETs from IRF630 to IRL510. If you do only 1 mod, do this one, you won't regret it!
> The 2 LEDs are part of the power circuit but only the red one is critical, I wouldn't change it unless it goes bad.


 

 Hi, first post so "Hello" , anyway-the reason i registered, i received my Bravo Audio V2 in the post today set it up and started listening to some music, after about 10 minutes the blue LED started to flicker, odd i thought, so i paused the music and there was audible interference that was in time to the flickering, the noise was the same volume irrespective of the volume position, i decided to leave it turned on but with no input, eventually the Blue LED went out completely and the interference disappeared, i am currently still listening to it and it sounds great.
 Thing is do you think it's alright? I'm not worried about the light not glowing, but is it, or will it cause a problem in the future?
 Any thoughts gratefully appreciated.
 Cheers---Mike


----------



## Didhefocus

mike12345678 said:


> Hi, first post so "Hello" , anyway-the reason i registered, i received my Bravo Audio V2 in the post today set it up and started listening to some music, after about 10 minutes the blue LED started to flicker, odd i thought, so i paused the music and there was audible interference that was in time to the flickering, the noise was the same volume irrespective of the volume position, i decided to leave it turned on but with no input, eventually the Blue LED went out completely and the interference disappeared, i am currently still listening to it and it sounds great.
> Thing is do you think it's alright? I'm not worried about the light not glowing, but is it, or will it cause a problem in the future?
> Any thoughts gratefully appreciated.
> Cheers---Mike


 

 Welcome to the forum Mike,
 I'm sorry you are having problems with your Bravo so soon!
 Mine would stop playing completely but would work again after a cool-down period. It's curious that on yours, the blue LED would be out but the amp is still working. You should check the bias since the voltage regulator is controlled by the LED circuit. You may be overdriving the tube which can shorten its life. Check earlier in this thread or the one I started on the V3 for info on checking the bias.
 Installing a new LED fixed mine and it even warmed up much faster from then on (15 seconds vs 45).


----------



## Didhefocus

Here's the V3 schematic.


----------



## Didhefocus

Mike
 Sorry but I forgot that you have a V2 when I commented last. The V2 doesn't have bias adjustment pots like the V1 or V3 so I'm not familiar with that bias circuit.


----------



## Mike12345678

Hi, no problems, i may contact the seller and pose the question, i've ordered another tube anyway (a Mullard) so if this blows, and depending on time span i may  ask for a replacement.
 Still, not massively expensive if it all goes pear-shaped.


----------



## Cirric

Hi, I ordered and have the IRL510s on hand. If I can do the mods this will be the first one. As I stated earlier, I now have two V3s, and will mod both. Thanks!


----------



## shabtronic

Here's what I've tried to fix the pulsing issue so far:
  
 1)    New LED across the Red LED points
 2)    New LED across the Blue LED points
 3)    resoldered all the under side points - just in case of dry joints
 4)    Messed around with bias pots 
  
 no joy - still pulses and does not work with the original PS, works with 27v PS but still pulses.
  
 I did notice with 27V PS the pulsing is faster(1.5x), usually 7 times before it becomes stable and works again - so maybe 
 it's a cap charging thing? (I had look at the schematics post on this thread - but it's all hieroglyphics to me and I don't
 understand the ciruit one bit)
  
 I don't have any meters or whatnot - but the original PS is still working I guess - because it still sparks
 like a demon when plugged into amp if amp left switch is on (probably a bad idea?).
  
 I have left amp on pulsing with original PS for 5-10 mins and nothing gets hot - tube is cold, all heatsinks are 
 cold also - it just pulses merrily away!
  
 I checked out component parts on ebay uk and got this so far
  
 Nichion 6800uf 35v     £4
 2xPanasonic 1000uf 35v     £2.49
 2xIRF630         £2.60 (I'll skip the IRL510 mod for the moment - I like the dark sound it produces with the IRF630)
 10x2N3906         £0.99
 5xLM317T        £1.98
  
 total:            £12.06
  
 Tube    12AX7/ECC83
         12AX7 tung sol        £16.25
         ElecHar            £14.95
         JJ ECC83S 12AX7        £8.99
         Mullard            £20-200!!!!
  
 so at the cheapest it's gonna cost £21 to fix
  
 Looks like I'll be soldering over xmas!!
  
 I will put the components in one at time and will post when/if I find out what component/s is the issue, so any body else with the
 pulse can fix it!
  
 many thanks for your help folks
  
 Shabby


----------



## shabtronic

So I finally got a meter and some components.
  
 I replaced the main caps with some of higher quality and higher voltage - didn't fix the issue.
  
 I put off replacing the mosfets till later (no static gear).
  
 but Eventually I found a old 20v laptop PS.
  
 It is the power supply that causes this for me - I measured on the original 24v PS and the output  was a CRAZY 29-35v - fluctuating wildly!! hard to tell because the meter was going crazy (just a cheap meter), my creative labs power supply registered a solid 26.9v. 
  
 I tried the amp with a known working 20v supply (switching laptop PS) and it worked just fine - no pulsing at all, a little distorted tho with breakup - I guess the lower voltage does that!
  
 I'm guessing the cheap ass PS you get with the V1 is really sensitive to mains fluctuations or whatevere.t.c... and borked itself somehow! Wondering what caused this?
 mains issues?
  
 It's probably worthwhile getting a RCD and/or a Linear power supply instead.
  
 Shabby


----------



## UmustBKidn

soundsgoodtome said:


> Can someone please list the tube models compatible on the bravo ocean besides the known 12au7?


 
  
 Best reference I know of is here: http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm
 Just a list of equivalent tube numbers without descriptions:
  
12AU7 / 12AU7A
ECC82
 CV491
5814
6189/E82CC
5963
 6350
 6680
 7730
 ECC802
 E80CC/6085
 B749
  
 I have several of these (underlined) and have tried them at least once in the amp (with varying results).
 Mullards, Telefunkens, and old American black plate tubes sound best to me.
 The recent remade Russian and Chinese tubes sound noticeably worse, even in this amp.
 I think if I couldn't get any vintage tubes, I'd probably not bother to use this amp at all.


----------



## Blarzor

Hey guys,
 I'm wondering if anyone tried using Bravo Audio Ocean AMP with AKG K712,is it strong enough to fully power those headphones? Also, does it color the sound much or is it more of a neutral?


----------



## interface95

It will definitely drive the k712 but if you are looking for an uncolored sound, I wouldn't go for a tube amp.


----------



## ch96066

Hi to all,
  
 Joined the Bravo tribe with the V2, mostly influenced by the good reviews here and on CNET.
  
 Short history first. Had the Fulla (very happy), but managed to burn it with wrong connection on the USB hub it was powered from. So upgradeitis kicked in and I went for a DAC-AMP desktop budget solution.
  
 Ended up getting the Bravo V2 to get into tubes. As I was happy with Schiit I went for their Modi 2 Uber DAC (liked the extra inputs).
  
 Broke in the V2 for about 24 hours (on the stock tube) and gave it a listen on my M4U1 (through the DAC using spotify and F2K with Asio). Plenty of power, nothing spectacularly musical on the performance (better than fiio E11 for sure, on par with the Fulla). So I swapped the stock tube with the first of the 3 NOS tubes I ordered (I mentioned upgradeitis rigth ?). RCA cleartop, GE JAN 5814 triple mica and a generic made from mullard tube. So the RCA went in first.
  
 Even with a few hours of breaking in (3-4 perhaps), all I can say is that tube rolling does make a difference. I will not make any judgments if it is for the best or not before I break it in even more and I do my standard tracks' test. Then of course there are the other 2 NOSs to compare .
  
 I was actually afraid of listening to any differences, because it probably means spending money to find the tube that works for me.
  
 A few things on the V2. Nice aesthetics (high WAF!). It does get hot on the sinks, not so much on the tube. inputs and outputs seem sturdy enough. Overall a promising amp.
  
 After more testing I will revert. Take care and enjoy the music!


----------



## Dirtnap

Hi Guys, first post on the forum. My daughter has a bravo 2 and the blue led is not working. Can anyone give me an idea where I can buy one? Think I'll replace the tube while Im at it. 

Any help is appreciated and thanks for your time.

Dirtnap


----------



## Didhefocus

dirtnap said:


> Hi Guys, first post on the forum. My daughter has a bravo 2 and the blue led is not working. Can anyone give me an idea where I can buy one? Think I'll replace the tube while Im at it.
> 
> Any help is appreciated and thanks for your time.
> 
> Dirtnap


 

 My blue LED stopped working once also on a V3 but the power circuit should be the same. I had a USB mouse that was worn out. I removed the blue LED from that and the amp works perfectly again.
 Almost any LED should work for that application. If the blue LED isn't working I would think your amp would be completely dead. Is that the case?
 You can buy one at many places on line for pennies but buying just one wouldn't be practical because of shipping. A local supplier like Fry's should have them in a bag of 5 for a dollar or so!


----------



## Didhefocus

dirtnap said:


> Hi Guys, first post on the forum. My daughter has a bravo 2 and the blue led is not working. Can anyone give me an idea where I can buy one? Think I'll replace the tube while Im at it.
> 
> Any help is appreciated and thanks for your time.
> 
> Dirtnap


 

 I forgot to welcome you to the forum!


----------



## sureshot1234

looking at purchasing a bravo audio ocean tube amp and was wondering if there is a guide on choosing tubes to roll based on their effects on the sound and how it changes?


----------



## amigomatt

sureshot1234 said:


> looking at purchasing a bravo audio ocean tube amp and was wondering if there is a guide on choosing tubes to roll based on their effects on the sound and how it changes?


I picked up an old Mullard valve that sounds best. I have aTelefunken that sounds very fast and detailed but it has some channel imbalance going on..


----------



## sureshot1234

amigomatt said:


> I picked up an old Mullard valve that sounds best. I have aTelefunken that sounds very fast and detailed but it has some channel imbalance going on..


 
 where is a good place to buy them?


----------



## sureshot1234

also it looks like there are many different types of mullards which ones are good or does it not matter


----------



## jangofett

Hi guys, 
 I bought the Bravo V2 + RFT ECC82 Tube. I got the Master & Dynamic MH40, Blue Lola and a couple of IEM.
 I don't have a open-back high impedance headphone, so I hope this is the right place to get a recommendation.
 So please, If you have some open back headphones with a budget of about 200$ I would like to know.
*and* I was wondering which of these headphones would sound best with the Bravo: 
 Beyerdynamic DT 990 Premium 600 ohm 
 Beyerdynamic DT 990 Premium 250 ohm 
 Beyerdynamic DT 880 Premium 600 ohm 
 Beyerdynamic DT 880 Premium 250 ohm 
  
 -another question I got a Sherwood RD-6405R Receiver, can it drive 600ohm? (I didn't find answer online)


----------



## amigomatt

jangofett said:


> Hi guys,
> I bought the Bravo V2 + RFT ECC82 Tube. I got the Master & Dynamic MH40, Blue Lola and a couple of IEM.
> I don't have a open-back high impedance headphone, so I hope this is the right place to get a recommendation.
> So please, If you have some open back headphones with a budget of about 200$ I would like to know.
> ...


Depends on what sound signature you like. The 880s are neutral with a lean bass and brightish treble, the 990s are V shaped, more bass impact and noticeably bright - to bright for some. The 990s are not as neutral as the 880s but are more exciting to listen to. 

Regarding the impedance, I can only say that my Bravo Audio Ocean struggles somewhat to drive my 600ohm AKG K240 DF to loud levels without distorting. It drives my 250ohm 990 PRO very well though, so maybe stick with the 250ohm versions.


----------



## jangofett

amigomatt said:


> Depends on what sound signature you like. The 880s are neutral with a lean bass and brightish treble, the 990s are V shaped, more bass impact and noticeably bright - to bright for some. The 990s are not as neutral as the 880s but are more exciting to listen to.
> 
> Regarding the impedance, I can only say that my Bravo Audio Ocean struggles somewhat to drive my 600ohm AKG K240 DF to loud levels without distorting. It drives my 250ohm 990 PRO very well though, so maybe stick with the 250ohm versions.


 
 1) I tried the 990 and 880 and the 990 were a bit harsh on the highs, the 880 less so. So I think I need warmer sound.
  
 2) What other good open back headphones with high impedance would sound good with the Bravo v2?
  
 3) The consensus is that the Bravo V2 cant handle 600ohm? 
  
 4) Will Bravo V2 handle well 300ohm headphones like the HD600?


----------



## interface95

If you can find a used HD580, go for it. 
Cheaper than than the HD600, not as good looking, and not as clear but man these sound great overall.


----------



## Alejandro508

Hey so has anyone experimented with using a 12BH7 on the V2? Is it safe? I read that in some 12AU7 circuits, you can substitute with a 12BH7 which should be a much better tube, even compared to high priced 12AU7s.


----------



## Alejandro508

So no one ever tried it?


----------



## UmustBKidn

jangofett said:


> amigomatt said:
> 
> 
> > Depends on what sound signature you like. The 880s are neutral with a lean bass and brightish treble, the 990s are V shaped, more bass impact and noticeably bright - to bright for some. The 990s are not as neutral as the 880s but are more exciting to listen to.
> ...


 
  
 re 2): I've listened to Grado SR-80's on mine, and it sounds okay, but not as controlled as my DT-770's (300 ohm). The gain of the Bravo is a bit much for the lower impedance cans.
  
 re 3): I didn't see the post that said 600 ohm cans are too much, but I would be surprised if that didn't work... on the other hand, if you're listening with 600 ohm cans, you probably need to spend more money on your amp/dac than a bravo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 re 4): Yes, it drives my 300 ohm Beyer DT-770's just fine.


----------



## Razornova

Is the V2/V3 or Ocean supposed to be better?


----------



## Wisor

Hey guys,
  
 I have stock Bravo V2.
  
 If i unplug one RCA both channels are playing!?
  
 EDIT.

 Found a short circuit on pot.
  
 EDIT2:
  
 Overall it's a great tube amp. I think the cheapest tube experience money can buy. I would not recommend it to someone with zero experience in electronics. Build quality it's just poooo.
  
 Also I resoldered capacitors because they just weren't straight 
  
 Now I am waiting for IRL510 mosfets to arrive and other materials to mod my V2.
  
 Btw: Stock heatsinks are no go for IRL510 ?


----------



## Didhefocus

I'm glad you found the problem!


----------



## Razornova

My 1/4 output one has sound on one channel. Is it still salvageable?


----------



## Didhefocus

These are completely rebuildable so in the right hands...Yes!


razornova said:


> My 1/4 output one has sound on one channel. Is it still salvageable?


----------



## serman005

Getting ready to pull the trigger on an Ocean and wondering if anybody on this board is using it with an HE400S. Are you out there?


----------



## Wisor

Hey,
  
 So basicly I added some mods to my V2.
  
 First one was "softstart" mod and general electric tube. I was not really sure if I want to change the mosfets, because I wanted to keep the "stock" look.
  
 On the internet people are modding their V2s with overkilling heatsinks.... I talked with some friend which knows a lot about mosfets and we tried to change IRF630 for IRL510 which is one of the better mosfets we were looking at.
  
 Many people said if I change the stock 630 for IRL510, heatsinks are going to be to small and I need active cooling etc or else they will burn 
  
 Well they were wrong.
  
*I can confirm IRL510 is working just fine with stock heatsinks*. Yeah they are a bit "warmer" around 10 to 20°C that is, but still mosfet at 80°C is at half of the maximum temperature it can reach. IRL510 is designed to reach a maximum temperature of 175°C...
  
 I am listening to my V2 for few hours now and no problem so far


----------



## Alejandro508

Yeah, since no one seems to talk about it, I went ahead and threw in a 12BH7 and changed the fixed bias resistors to pots to accommodate. It doesn't even sound like the same amp anymore and it's a much better upgrade than spending a lot on rarer 12AU7 varieties. I am surprised more folks haven't messed with it, like wow.


----------



## igotyofire

Powersupply: MEAN WELL GS60A24-P1J 60W 3-Wire AC Input Regulated AC-to-DC Switching Table-Top Power Supply 24V 2.5 Amp
  
 I have the V1 version of the Bravo with the 6922 & haven't been able to use it for years because the power supply died. Well I was searching for a replacement & eventually gave up until recently. I found this Power supply on Amazon for $23  which I just plugged in & seems to work well. Pretty glad I have an opportunity to hear this little thing again. I think the plug could fit in a little better but I can't find the old PSU to compare, but don't really see it coming out easily.  Figured I'd just share in case anyone else finds themselves in the same boat.


----------



## serman005

Still wondering--is anybody using the Ocean with low-impedance headphones? How is it working?


----------



## mateusfig

Hello. I just received some 6n23p tubes and I'm trying to install one on my Bravo v3. I can't bias and the sound go out only from one channel always. I tried 3 diferent units of 6n23p. The "bad" channel bias is around 23v!! The "normal" channel bias is around 12v. When I move the pot to adjust the bias, nothing happens to this bad channel.


----------



## tdockweiler

Really loving the Bravo V2. I've owned it for over a year and it's really grown on me.
 Most of the time it sat in my closest without being used much.
 I never really liked it with the AKG Q701, but I realized it just takes the right tube for that headphone to sound good on this amp.
 I actually was impressed with how good the HD-650 sounded on it.
  
 A few days ago I bought an Electro Harmonix (new production) 12AU7 tube and it's easily the best one i've heard yet.
 Sounds amazing with the Q701 and even still good with the HD-650. It might not be my first choice for the HD-650 though.
 The mids are really very full sounding with this tube and there is no treble harshness at all to my ears.
 I was reading some random reviews and some think this tube and all non-NOS tubes are junk, but I disagree. I love this tube!
 Before this I bought a Genalex Gold Lion but it was a defect and I didn't want to risk it again.
  
 I also have a JJ tube and it's pretty good too, but not great with the Q701. It actually is a somewhat warm sounding tube.
 I have a NOS GE JG-5814A and it's absolutely horrible with the Q701.
 It makes it's sound too bright and tinny sounding. Painful to listen to. My Q701 is never like that on anything! Not even the stock O2.
  
 I also have a Nobsound NS-08e with upgrade tubes and it's pretty good, but not quite as good as this.
 It's a steal at $50 though, but i've found the tubes too hard to find. I'm currently using some GE JAN-6688 tubes with it.
 My NS-08E is a little warmer and more closed in sounding with every tube i've tried compared to the V2.
  
 I also had the Little Dot 1+ for awhile with upgraded tubes and felt it wasn't really an upgrade over my Bravo V2. It was a pretty good amp though.
 I really liked that with nearly everything. If I did not have the V2 I would have kept it.
  
 So far the Bravo V2 has been an even better "all rounder" than the original Vali 1, but no surprise there.
 I do wonder how the Vali 2 compares to the Bravo V2. Most people will automatically probably say it's better due to being more expensive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So anyway, I'm going to still try the Gold Lion and some new production Tung-Sol tubes (!). I really don't want to spent $60+ on a tube to be honest. Maybe i'll score a deal on a NOS Mullard tube, but not a high priority. RCA clear tops are on my radar too. Hopefully they're not as bright as the GE 5814A.
  
 BTW I do wish I had gotten the Ocean instead just to have an enclosure. Yes, I like this amp that much..


----------



## serman005

Is anybody using their Ocean with an HD600 or 650? If so, how is it working out?


----------



## looloopklopm

So my V3 just recently started making a very subtle "pop" noice every 3-10 seconds. Sounds like it is mostly in my right ear. It isn't my phone causing the interference, and the volume knob doesn't seem to effect frequency of the pop or the volume. Music coming through still sounds excellent. I am wondering if anyone would know what would be causing this?


----------



## serman005

I'd love to hear from people how they feel the Ocean does on low-impedance headphones. Does it work?


----------



## mariposastar

Hi everybody. I just received a Bravo V3 today, with the EH6992. It is a nice little amplifier and feels more like a project than a final product, which is cool for a student like me. The one thing that is letting me down though is that I am experiencing a _lot_ of noise through the output. This noise does not change in loudness when I play with the potentiometer. It also remains when I have unplugged any input source. I have done my best to remove all sources of background noise away from the amp to no avail.
  
 I will try and use the amplifier in another location to verify if it is just an issue with my room, or if it is an issue with the electronics. I have not modified my V3 in any way yet. What would you suggest I look at to try and debug this? I am decently skilled with electronics so I will probably be able to make sense of any suggestions...
  
 Thank you, hope all of you are enjoying your Bravo amps!


----------



## Alejandro508

It might be related to the power supply or input capacitor not being very good. Or, if you upgrade the tubes sometimes that helps. I've used my V2 in more than one location and I've noticed that some locations have a lot of noise so that could be another factor.


----------



## serman005

What is the output impedance of the Ocean? Anyone know?


----------



## AirForceTeacher

So, is the Bravo/Indeed able to be used as a tube preamp if I'm careful with the volume?  I want to put something between my Sonos and my receiver to try for a different sound.


----------



## Alejandro508

I mean you can try it, but there's better options out there for that. It will give it a warm tubey sound but without mods it will also degrade sound quality a little bit. It does sound musical no matter what, though.


----------



## Usarmyaircav

Just got an Ocean over the weekend.  So far loving it with the little bit of time I have on it.  I am using DT 770 Pro 250ohm.


----------



## BillsonChang007

serman005 said:


> Is anybody using their Ocean with an HD600 or 650? If so, how is it working out?


It sound decent but you won't get the most out of it IMO. But its been a long time since I last auditioned the combo. If anything, it is ted too warm for me if I recall correctly. I like it with AKG K702/65 tho! 


serman005 said:


> I'd love to hear from people how they feel the Ocean does on low-impedance headphones. Does it work?



Try not to use it with IEM. It will be too loud

Hope it helps! Or am I too late...


----------



## UmustBKidn

Ca you post a pic of the mods with specs of resistors?



Alejandro508 said:


> Yeah, since no one seems to talk about it, I went ahead and threw in a 12BH7 and changed the fixed bias resistors to pots to accommodate. It doesn't even sound like the same amp anymore and it's a much better upgrade than spending a lot on rarer 12AU7 varieties. I am surprised more folks haven't messed with it, like wow.


----------



## UmustBKidn

tdockweiler said:


> Really loving the Bravo V2. I've owned it for over a year and it's really grown on me.
> Most of the time it sat in my closest without being used much.
> I never really liked it with the AKG Q701, but I realized it just takes the right tube for that headphone to sound good on this amp.
> I actually was impressed with how good the HD-650 sounded on it.
> ...



Well I think you just proved the whole point of tube rolling ... its a game of matching amp performance to the response of your cans and ears. I had an old mil spec 5963 black plate in my stock V2 and it was sounding great, but the highs were a bit sharp. So I put a 50's vintage round getter Mullard 12AU7 in and Bingo - nice smooth sounding high end and a bit better bass response. The pins seem a bit flaky as it took some wiggling to get both channels working, but that seems typical for tubes as old as me...

You would in fact laugh at how many tubes I've bought just to play with these cheapie amps. Definitely spent more than $60 bucks on some .. and I have a couple big plastic component boxes full of these little tubes. In my defense, I keep telling myself my next amp will be a bottlehead crack... sooner or later. In the meantime, I remain amazed at how good these amps sound with a real vintage Mullard. I do swap those out for the cheaper NOS tubes just to experiment; invariably the black plated American tubes sound better to my ears, than any "new" tubes. To me the new ones sound thin and tinny on top. But that's just me.

I haven't posted here in some time, and both of my Bravo's are still running fine. The modded one doesn't actually need fan cooling, to address what someone else said. With the taller caps, I can't put the old cover on anyway, so its just open to the elements. If I have a very long listening session, I might turn the usb fan on.


----------



## Sp12er3

still in stock for mine... Maybe itd time to upgrade the tube as I find myself not using my k702 as much as I would like and thus refreshing it might be a good idea.


----------



## mvneufeld (Oct 29, 2017)

Hi - I'm going to replace the MOSFETs with IRL510s or IRL530s in my Bravo Ocean. I read somewhere in another discussion thread that if you only do one mod to the Bravo, this is the one to do, and I'm not planning to do any other mods (other than replace the tube with this growing stock of NOS tubes I'm collecting).

I read (in a thread on Head-fi) that the IRL510 works just fine with stock heatsinks, but that writer was referring to the V2 and not the Ocean, and he wrote this just hours after doing the mod. I was just wondering of anyone had experience with the Bravo Ocean overheating after doing the MOSFET mod.


----------



## Adide

Hi all.

Has the output impedance of Bravo Audio Ocean been determined?
Can't seem to find this info either on head-fi or the internets.

I'm asking because I assume the listing in specs is wrong and "Output Impedance 20-600" actually refers to recommended load impedance (supported phone impedance) and not to the actual amplifier output impedance.
If I'd have to guess I'd expect this to be in the 1-10 Ohm range (comparing to similar amplifiers) but I'd like to know the actual value if someone knows it.

Thanks and sorry if it's been answered already - just point me in the right direction.


----------



## chipbutty (Apr 14, 2018)

Had a go at making this headphone attenuator for the Bravo V2. The details are in there for the Bravo V2 version. After talking with Frans I found two 3.3 ohm resistors worked best. It certainly tames the volume and allows for a larger sweep of the volume knob.


----------



## Fasterball

Please recommend me a tube for the V2. I'm willing to build a tube collection so please throw out suggestions. I'd love to hear what your favorites are


----------



## Sp12er3

I'd love to hear about tube recommendations as well, the ones stated early in the thread are a bit too exotic so it's hard to find...


----------



## Qwervy

chipbutty said:


> Had a go at making this headphone attenuator for the Bravo V2. The details are in there for the Bravo V2 version. After talking with Frans I found two 3.3 ohm resistors worked best. It certainly tames the volume and allows for a larger sweep of the volume knob.


That sets your output impedance to about 3.3 ohms though. For sensitive cans, I actually have found that -30db (roughly, cant remember exactly) is perfect. (68R series 2.2R parallel) You get better impedance matching with low impedance headphones too. A below 1 ohm output impedance is ideal but that means that you loose a lot of volume. 

I use the attenuator that I made on my Xduoo XD-05 plus a lot cause that can deliver 1W into 32 ohms and I try to use IEM's with it lol.


----------



## Evshrug

Qwervy said:


> That sets your output impedance to about 3.3 ohms though. For sensitive cans, I actually have found that -30db (roughly, cant remember exactly) is perfect. (68R series 2.2R parallel) You get better impedance matching with low impedance headphones too. A below 1 ohm output impedance is ideal but that means that you loose a lot of volume.
> 
> I use the attenuator that I made on my Xduoo XD-05 plus a lot cause that can deliver 1W into 32 ohms and I try to use IEM's with it lol.



Well, 3.3 Ω output impedance should be plenty dampened by 32 Ω headphones or more resistant ones... so this really would only be an issue with extra sensitive IEMs and headphones.

Also, it’s been a long time since I saw this thread! 🧟‍♂️ Wonder how @Judge Buff is doing.


----------

