# Kwak-Clock Mod



## colonelkernel8

Hello, I was thinking of applying this mod to my Rotel RCD-02. Does anyone have some more information, pics, walkthroughs that can get me going in the right direction? The more specific it is to my Rotel, the better.

*The mod is done, scroll down for pics*


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## cotdt

you install it just like any other clock. there are plenty of directions available. since you made your own KWAK Clock, shouldn't this be baby stuff to you?


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## colonelkernel8

Alright, everything is in the workings for this upgrade. Ordered all the parts from mister Kwak himself in presumably Germany. Will post the build pics when I get started!!! This is reputed to be the best clock you can put in a CD player, we'll see.


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## Yen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alright, everything is in the workings for this upgrade. Ordered all the parts from mister Kwak himself in presumably Germany. Will post the build pics when I get started!!! This is reputed to be the best clock you can put in a CD player, we'll see._

 

How much the whole thing costs?


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## Mrjabba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Yen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much the whole thing costs?_

 

i'm interested in knowing too


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## colonelkernel8

70 euros (about $95) for the full kit.

 30 for just the PCB


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## colonelkernel8

I can get people the schematic as well as the other information too. Just ask here or PM me. The clock is open to make by DIYers, Elso just doesn't want his work out in the open or being used commercially.


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## peranders

Why has he then uploaded the schematic...?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...928#post199928


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## Yen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peranders* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why has he then uploaded the schematic...?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...928#post199928_

 

That's v7. v8 is the newest?

 colonelkernel8, could you pm me info, thanx.


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peranders* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why has he then uploaded the schematic...?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...928#post199928_

 

Now that is news to me. 

 My apologies, go ahead and get it there then, but unless you want to make your own layout and PCB, you need to order it from him. You could make a really messy protoboard version too, I think there is a tutorial somewhere for that.


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## colonelkernel8

Ah, here it is:
http://www.diyparadise.com/clock.html


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## jarthel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah, here it is:
http://www.diyparadise.com/clock.html_

 


 how did you contact Elso? via email? what email did you use?

 thank you.


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## colonelkernel8

elsokwak <at> yahoo <dot> com


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## colonelkernel8

I finished the mod during my *eh hem* "Break". Will post pictures in a minute.

 Initial reaction: "Holy S***!" (yeah its that good, and better)


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## colonelkernel8




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## mrdelayer

How easy would it be to A/B the new sound and the original, though? Surely it would be at least slightly difficult to reverse this mod.


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## colonelkernel8

Indeed, but the difference is so extreme that it is noticable regardless of whether you are comparing it directly to the original or not. I mean its just that much better. Its like essentially buying a brand new CD player. I am talking going from a $500 Rotel RCD-02 and making it sound like a $2500 Rega Saturn, I kid you not.

 Jitter is the enemy my friends, and this simple mod (well, not _too_ simple) will reduce it dramatically.

 If for any reason you want to revert, its not to terribly difficult, just pull out the clock and replace the 4 parts you took out (the crystal, the resistor and the 2 ceramic caps).

 The Kwak Clock even lets you fine tune the square wave with a pot, though if you don't have an oscilloscope, its just a matter of setting a certain voltage.


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## colonelkernel8

Ok, so now I recabled the kwak clock with nice EMI shielded cable. No noticable difference, but it looks a lot neater.


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## Crowbar

OK, first of all, in the picture you have power cables running right over the clock PCB...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, so now I recabled the kwak clock with nice EMI shielded cable. No noticable difference, but it looks a lot neater. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Cable characteristic impedance and matched termination on each end is more important here, unless you have an extremely short connection from the clock to the DAC.


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## colonelkernel8

Oh, that is an older (as in 2 hours before I changed it) picture, that was just the thrown together one just to see if it worked.

 I added some EMI shielding around those power cables (in the form of techflex-like copper mesh (finer woven, don't know the brand).

 The only reason I put the EMI cable in was because it was nicer looking, it was two hookup wires wrapped in fine metal wiring inside a pvc dielectric. I pulled it from an old computer. It wasn't to serve any EMI blocking purposes.


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## regal

What is the size of the Kwak clock PCB ? Does he have a webpage?

 What about using this to replace a clock in a DAC, any benefits?


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## colonelkernel8

The PCB is roughly 2 inches by 3.5 inches, thats a rough estimate.

 There is no clock in a DAC, because the digital information from the transport is sent after the clock in the transport's circuit, but you can still replace the clock in the transport and you will reap all of the benefits of the clock.

 No website, I posted his (Elso Kwak's) e-mail earlier in the thread. You are free to design your own PCB from the schematic though. If you do, post it. (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## Filburt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cable characteristic impedance and matched termination on each end is more important here, unless you have an extremely short connection from the clock to the DAC._

 

This is what concerned me when looking at the pictures...


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## colonelkernel8

Ok, what the hell is wrong with the pictures that cause for all the "concern".

 Is it the distance from the clock to where it connects to the PCB? That is where everyone puts their clock in a RCD-02. Its really the only place that I can mount it securely.


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## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is no clock in a DAC, because the digital information from the transport is sent after the clock in the transport's circuit, but you can still replace the clock in the transport and you will reap all of the benefits of the clock.

 (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)_

 


 Actually most DAC's have clocks. My Audio Alchemy DDE does, it is called reclocking and is supposed to remove jitter. On my DAC the clock is driven by a simple dedicated LM78L05 so I am thinking this would help.


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## colonelkernel8

Well, there you go. I learn something new everyday. For any clocking, I am certain that this would aid in reducing jitter and improving overall sound quality.


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## Filburt

Hey now, I wasn't trying to insult you. Your installation doesn't look like you do sloppy work or something of that sort; I'm not trying to insult your work. However, fitting a replacement clock is not exactly something you can just swap out, find a place to fit it, and go to town. It's a sensitive portion of the system, and you can end up eating up the benefits if you aren't careful about installation. I personally would have put the clock much closer to the input, and simply found some way of securing it. Without matching impedances and limiting connection length, you'll end up with garbage on the line (wave reflection, noise, etc.) which will impact performance and be exactly the sort of thing you didn't want when making this modification.


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## colonelkernel8

Understandable. Indeed, I did match connections (impedence wise) with my new wires (the wires pictured are old, I installed a new one (the matched one) not much longer afterward. It sounds wonderful btw. No noise, smearing, or anything of that sort.

 The only reason my response was hostile was because you were the second person to say something like: "Yeah, about that clock placement..." with the "..." at the end instead of explaining what it was I did wrong. Thank you filburt.


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## Crowbar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, there you go. I learn something new everyday. For any clocking, I am certain that this would aid in reducing jitter and improving overall sound quality._

 

Jitter cannot be really removed by simple reclocking. You either have to resample or use a buffer to deal with the fact that the DAC clock and the transport clock are not perfectly synchronized. The first option, an ASRC converts the signal's jitter into amplitude errors in the sampling, though there is some attenuation of the jitter compared to the phase-to-amplitude error conversion happening in the DAC chip instead. The second option is better but more complex and rarely implemented, and it's not trivial to do it properly. There's a third option, which is to slave the transport clock to the DAC clock, but that means you need one more cable, from the DAC back to the transport.


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## dip16amp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peranders* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why has he then uploaded the schematic...?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...928#post199928_

 

It looks like Mouser has all the parts on the parts list except for the AD8561 which Digikey has in stock. Here are the part numbers that I have found. List any corrections or other part numbers that may be better.

 R3 1 resistor 47 Ohm 660-MF1/4DC47R0F $0.03

 R1 1 resistor 1k 660-MF1/4DC1001F $0.03

 R4, R11 2 resistor 820 ohm 71-CCF07-G-820 $0.05

 R7, R10 2 resistor 2.7 k 71-CCF07-G-2.7K $0.05

 R9 1 resistor 21.5 k 660-MF1/4DC2152F $0.03

 R5, R6, R8 3 resistor 27k 660-MF1/4DLT52R2702F $0.06

 R12 1 resistor 100k 660-MF1/4DC1003F $0.03

 R2 1 resistor 10M 594-5063JD10M00F $0.12

 RV1 1 pot 2k Spectrol type 64W 594-64W202 $1.95

 C6 1 cap ceramic NPO 39 pF (marked 39) 140-50N2-390J-RC $0.06

 C5 1 cap ceramic NPO 68 pF (marked 68) 140-50N2-680J $0.07

 C1, C13 2 cap ceramic disc 0.01 µF (marked 103) 140-50P5-103K-RC $0.15

 C3, C4, C7, C8, C9, C11, C14, C15 8 cap ceramic 0.1 µF (marked 104) 140-50U5-104M-RC $0.18

 C2 1 cap ceramic NPO 100pF (marked 100) 140-50N5-101J-TB $0.08

 C10, C12 2 electrolytic cap 2200µF; 16V 140-XRL16V2200 $0.42

 C16, C17 2 cap 1µF polypropylene 1429-2105 $1.17

 L3, L4 2 inductor 2.2 mH (marked NEOSID 2,2k) 43LH222 $1.05

 Q1 1 FET J309 512-J309 $0.17

 1 IC AD8561AN AD8561AN-ND $3.58

 Q2 1 transistor BC550C 512-BC550CTA $0.06

 Q3 1 transistor BC560C 512-BC560CTA $0.06

 D1, D2 2 IC LM431 512-LM431AIZ $0.15

 L1, L2, L5 3 ferrite bead 623-2743001112LF $0.12


 R310.030.03
 R1210.030.03
 R4, R1120.050.10
 R7, R1020.050.10
 R910.030.03
 R5, R6, R830.060.18
 R1210.030.03
 R210.120.12
 RV111.951.95
 C610.060.06
 C510.070.07
 C1, C1320.150.30
 C3, C4, …80.181.44
 C210.080.08
 C10, C1220.420.84
 C16, C1721.172.34
 L3, L421.052.10
 Q110.170.17
 Q210.060.06
 Q310.060.06
 D1, D220.150.30
 L1, L2, L530.120.36
 10.75

 AD8561at Digikey3.58


 Total $14.33


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## colonelkernel8

Yeah, that is indeed an excellent price, but its the PCB board that kills you. Unless you make it yourself, and the geometry of the traces *does* matter considerably with Elso's design so unless you copy his, I don't know, I am sure there are a bunch of experts out there. You could just order it from him, but he charges a premium for his copyrighted design. If you do make a pcb board, make sure it doesn't copy his, and make sure you post it


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## dip16amp

Looks like Mouser is out of stock on:
 R1 1 resistor 1k 660-MF1/4DC1001F $0.03

 But they have this in stock:
 71-CCF55-1K $0.05

 A circuit board could be generated by computer. Anyone want to simulate and model one?


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## colonelkernel8

I am game. I wouldn't mind having another kwak clock, especially if it is significantly cheaper. 

*Maybe design a board and do a group buy?*


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## colonelkernel8

Loading up Protel right now. I'll see what I can make.


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## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a third option, which is to slave the transport clock to the DAC clock, but that means you need one more cable, from the DAC back to the transport._

 


 This third option is really one of those internet myths as far as DIY goes, it hasn't been done sucessfully because it requires some complicated digital circuitry to do it right.


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## Crowbar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This third option is really one of those internet myths as far as DIY goes, it hasn't been done sucessfully because it requires some complicated digital circuitry to do it right._

 

*I call BS, and I can prove it: http://peufeu.free.fr/audio/extremist_dac/*

 There is also at least one other DIYer that did this, either from the headwize or diyaudio forums. The FIFO is actually a more complex option to properly implement, but has also been implemented (search diyaudio).


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## SayNoToPistons

Wow...


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## colonelkernel8

Lets stop arguing over the effectiveness of the Kwak Clock, because if you are in any form of disbelief, you simply haven't heard one. Yes, you crowbar.

 So, lets shift from that subject to the design and possible group buy of a Kwak Clock PCB board. I will be working with Eagle, I am nearly finished inputting the schematic, once I have, I'll upload it so any and all may begin a pcb design.


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## Crowbar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lets stop arguing over the effectiveness of the Kwak Clock, because if you are in any form of disbelief, you simply haven't heard one. Yes, you crowbar._

 

What are you smoking? Read what I wrote: nowhere am I arguing against the Kwak Clock. I use one myself, even had ICM manufacture a custom crystal for me to use in the circuit, and I'm on the same forum Elso Kwak is (diyhifi.org) without having had any argument with him.

 The arguments I made is first about attaching it properly, and second about regal's unfounded posting about clock injection to the transport. None of these have anything to do with the clock design itself, so I'd love to know where you pulled that one from. Care to explain?


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## colonelkernel8

No, I am just making unfounded accusations because I failed to remember what the thread was about or what you had previously said. But now, we are purely to be working on a board design.


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## Crowbar

I'm still waiting for you to back up your accusation, or apologize. Simply quote where it is I said or implied the clock is not effective, or show at least the minimum amount of manners needed to apologize.


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## dip16amp

I did a parts layout, wiring diagram, and wire list for the Kwak clock on four 16 pin DIP sockets.
 Mouser has the sockets (p/n 575-193316) for $0.98 each.

 Socket "A" has the positive voltage regulator.
 Socket "B" has the xtal circuit.
 Socket "C" has the negative voltage regulator.
 Socket "D" has the AD8561 and output circuit.

 Solder the wires on the bottom of the sockets in order of the wire list.
 Then the capacitors, then plug the rest of the parts on the sockets.

 Here are the pics.


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## Crowbar

In a high frequency circuit, PCB layout is *critical*, as the parasitic reactances of even short traces and wires have an effect. This rats nest is not going to give you anything near the optimal perormance possible by the clock.

 The best option is to do this with surface mount parts on a PCB half the size of your contraption, with attention carefully paid to trace layout.


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## jarthel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In a high frequency circuit, PCB layout is *critical*, as the parasitic reactances of even short traces and wires have an effect. This rats nest is not going to give you anything near the optimal perormance possible by the clock.

 The best option is to do this with surface mount parts on a PCB half the size of your contraption, with attention carefully paid to trace layout._

 

Elso wasn't selling PCBs before. But 4 years ago, I decided to try out his design without a PCB. I used something called veroboard but it is still P2P.

 VERY VERY BAD experience with all kinds of distortion.


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## colonelkernel8

Crowbar, I am sorry bro, I was out of line (as in I made the accusation without reading the whole thread to refresh my memory).


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## Crowbar

Thanks.


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## colonelkernel8

no problem. now, back to subject.


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## peranders

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jarthel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Elso wasn't selling PCBs before. But 4 years ago, I decided to try out his design without a PCB. I used something called veroboard but it is still P2P.

 VERY VERY BAD experience with all kinds of distortion._

 

I have serious doubts about the performance of Elso's home brewed pcb. I don't doubt for a second that colonelkernel8 thinks it's good or even superior. I can bet some money that no professional would never come up with the idea to make a > 10 MHz circuit be built in the Elso way. We can see here and in other places students even are pretty good to make good pcb's with a little help from pros. We have seen rather many nice looking "professional" pcb's from non-pros. Only Elso can answer why he can't manage to make a professional pcb for that kind of money he sells his boards for. This was only a thought, nothing else.


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## Crowbar

And here comes peranders, undoubtedly soon to begin selling his own 'improved' version, as we've seen numerous times and on various forums. Was losing your moderator status at diyaudio not a lesson? Your continued style of attacking others' implementations, then stealing the designs and after a few 'improvements' selling them is getting old. In relation to high frequency design, I'd take Jocko Homo's opinion over most as he's done much work professionally with RF, and I've not heard any criticisms from him about Elso's work (including in my private discussion with him).


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## peranders

My "attacking" was a possible opening for design thoughts. Nothing is written in stone. VERO board is not a first choice if you are planning to make a high performance oscillator. Making an oscillator as good it can be requires more.


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## Crowbar

Surface mount boards are not hard to do and they're worth it. I strongly recommend every DIYer invest in a hot air setup. You can get a handheld hot air with a bunch of nozzles for about $120 including shipping, and it's useful to add a preheater (as low as $50, eBay it). If you're nuts about the best digital implementation, you can even get Teflon PCBs.


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## peranders

It works rather fine to use a regular soldering iron with a small tip plus a pair of tweezers.
This or this. 
Tweezers, detail

 If you have two soldering irons, good if you solder resistors and caps.


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## colonelkernel8

Well, I did manage to find a SMD version of the Kwak Clock on this very forum:







 Its a start, but can be undoubtedly improved upon. This uses the soic packages of the regulators.


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## Garbz

A +10Mhz circuit without a ground plane... I suggest if you're going to go all out then make it dual layered and do a bit of reading from the likes of Guido Tent's and other HF engineers pcb design articles.


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## colonelkernel8

I didn't design that above pcb, if you will read what it says.

 Elso's design had a ground plane btw.


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## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*I call BS, and I can prove it: http://peufeu.free.fr/audio/extremist_dac/*

 There is also at least one other DIYer that did this, either from the headwize or diyaudio forums. The FIFO is actually a more complex option to properly implement, but has also been implemented (search diyaudio)._

 


 The extremist DAC is a Do-it-himself one off project that I saw last year, that no one else is building. Calling this DIY is like calling an EE for Esoteric a DIYer. Also check his updates, it never worked out and he never made more boards.

 Believe me I would love to be wrong about this. There is a company who sells a DAC for $2000 and gives you the instructions to hack your transport. We should start a new thread though because I would like to hear more about this as it should be the ultimate in jitter reduction, surpassing any clock upgrade.


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## Pars

Take a look at the Tentlink on tentlabs site. This clocks the DAC (external) and sends that clock back to the CDP (which is really the way it should be done). But you are still better off with a one box player and sticking to I2S internally, if you can.


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## Crowbar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that no one else is building._

 

This is ridiculous. DIY is not about kits since in those most of the work is already done for you--just a bit of soldering required. How many people build something has nothing to do with DIY. I put together an X-ray machine in the basement, and that's as much DIY as a Cmoy, despite very few people having done it.

  Quote:


 it never worked out 
 

It does work, he's simply not using it. I suggest you email him to confirm that it worked.

  Quote:


 ultimate in jitter reduction, surpassing any clock upgrade. 
 

Not really. The buffer is a much better idea. The problem with clock injection is that you're only removing jitter from a jittery clock on the transport side, but not the jitter due to the interface--the S/PDIF interconnect. Toslink especially is very bad, since the transmitter and receivers are horrible in terms of jitter. The coaxial is better, but there are still problems. RCA jacks are _not_ 75 ohm to match the characteristic impedance of the cable, and thus you always get some reflections at the connectors, unless you replace them with BCN. Beyond that, it's not often that the terminations at the coax are exactly 75 ohms, with the same result. The receiver and transmitter ICs also have an effect on the jitter.

 The buffer removes all dependence on input jitter (as long as the jitter is not so enormous that you have actual data loss). Someone from the diyaudio forums built a version which works with standard S/PDIF and doesn't need any modifications on the transport: *http://vincent.brient.free.fr/dac_eng.htm*

 He posted more information about the operation on the forum there:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vincent_brient* 
_The systeme is totally synchronous with the DAc oscillator. It samples the incoming CS8416 I2S signal, select 1 data corresponding to a CS8416 SCK edge, stores it in the SRAM and the the data is output according the DAC SCK.
 After a few hours the 0.2s FIFO can get full or empty but it never happens because the FIFO is reinitialised whenever the data is a long silence (track change ou disc change). Read and Write access to the SRAM are quick so I wrote the VHDL so that it never happens at the same time. There is a period of time reserved for reading and one for writting._

 

I'm working on a different version of such a system that completely electrically decouples the jittery input from the data fed to the DAC, such that the well known jitter coupling through power supply and other circuits cannot occur. However, I'm not relying on S/PDIF, so a modification is needed for the transport. S/PDIF overall is a very crappy standard. Hawksford's AES journal paper from way back in the 90s trashes it very nicely: http://www.scalatech.co.uk/papers/aes93.pdf (section 3 is most relevant).


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## colonelkernel8

Kill me now? I think once again we have strayed off topic. Waaay off topic.


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## Crowbar

It's not off-topic, when you consider that the whole point of upgrading the clock is to get lower jitter. So I'd say that a more general discussion about dealing with jitter is warranted.


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## colonelkernel8

Ok, well, over my vacation I worked up a pcb for the kwak clock on my flights, so I'll upload them as soon as I can (ill have to take them off my laptop).


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## colonelkernel8

Here is the schematic for the Kwak Clock in Eagle format.

http://www.savefile.com/files/596646

 Feel free to improve it, or make your own PCB (make sure you post it too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)

 As it turns out, the PCB I designed had a huge, huge flaw in it, so I am scrapping it and starting from scratch (it was a crappy 15 minute job anyway).

 Note about the schematic, the two 2.2mH inductors are removed.


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## colonelkernel8

After a long break, I'd like to rekindle our discussion here.

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/ra...._clock_en.html

 I think that design has a lot of potential, compact layout with a ground plane. Maybe convert it to accept SMD.


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## Crowbar

Now if we only had KC8 schematic...


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now if we only had KC8 schematic..._

 

I thought KC8 was only myth.


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## Crowbar

My understanding was only that schematics weren't available, and that Elso was selling built versions. Why did you think it was a myth?

 BTW, I've attached another clock that I've heard is quite good.


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My understanding was only that schematics weren't available, and that Elso was selling built versions. Why did you think it was a myth?

 BTW, I've attached another clock that I've heard is quite good._

 

I wish I could read that schematic, cant read the names of the IC's...care to translate the schematic to Eagle?


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## Crowbar

I don't know Russian, but only one of the ICs is in Cyrillic: 100LP116, which is supposedly a better performing version of the MC10116. The other ICs turn up in Google search; they're available in North America. The comments about OSCON SM series caps, and X7R for the ceramics, are obvious. Then something about resistors, 1206 which is surface mount, 5%. Something about 0.3 cm^2 and 0.5 cm^2 PCB heatsinking planes for the DA1 and DA2 regulators, correspondingly. Last comment is crystal brand recommendations in HC49 (personally I use custom low jitter crystals that ICM made for me). The second to last comment I don't have a clue about, however: something 100 pF about the DA3 comparator.

 Keep in mind, as in any clock, PCB layout is critical.


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## colonelkernel8

I am working on an eagle version of kwak clock (single regulated supply) that is all ground plane. How do I adjust the spacing of the ratsnest from the traces?


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## Crowbar

I think it's done by using the 'change' tool (spanner icon).

 I suggest you try dual ground planes (top and bottom); it provides good shielding. Don't use long traces as they act like transmission lines and won't behave properly unless they have correct terminations (you'd get reflections otherwise).

 For a simple circuit like this clock, I'd just create a 3D structure without PCB, as I can minimize all connection lengths.


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know Russian, but only one of the ICs is in Cyrillic: 100LP116, which is supposedly a better performing version of the MC10116. The other ICs turn up in Google search; they're available in North America. The comments about OSCON SM series caps, and X7R for the ceramics, are obvious. Then something about resistors, 1206 which is surface mount, 5%. Something about 0.3 cm^2 and 0.5 cm^2 PCB heatsinking planes for the DA1 and DA2 regulators, correspondingly. Last comment is crystal brand recommendations in HC49 (personally I use custom low jitter crystals that ICM made for me). The second to last comment I don't have a clue about, however: something 100 pF about the DA3 comparator.

 Keep in mind, as in any clock, PCB layout is critical._

 

What are the pins on the right? Other than the +9v.


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## Crowbar

X1 is +9V, X4 is ground, and X2 and X3 are the inverted and non-inverted outputs. You can use both if you like balanced clock signal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Note the 10LC116 is a single chip with three sections, and so only one of the ICs is used in the clock; the numbers by the connections are pin assignments.


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## colonelkernel8

Here is the initial version of my board for the kwak clock.


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## colonelkernel8

I am working on an SMD version, then I will start work on the Lynx Clock.


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## guzzler

Whilst the effort is admirable, have you checked with Elso before publishing this? Firstly, it is only polite, and secondly he's had objections to this in the past - DIY means DIY to him, which is fair enough. If you don't want to go to the effort and expense of designing AND TESTING your own layout and keeping it your own, I don't see why he shouldn't take something back for his "official" board.

 Just something to think about...


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## Crowbar

guzzler's post is a perfect example of the anti-DIY spirit.

 Elso's clock is not patented. There's no trade secret protection since it's a published design. And the copyright just covers a particular representation (the specific drawing of the schematic). No intellectual property code, let alone law, says anything against publishing any derivative works such as PCB designs.

 All you've shown is your view that financial possibilities take precedence to everything else in your ethical outlook.

 Oh, by the way, I'm certain Elso couldn't give a damn. I've seen enough of him on the other two forums to bet on that. This isn't a case of peranders selling a 'new and improved' version of someone else's design; it's someone contributing PCB drawings for free to the DIY community, to which you clearly don't belong.


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## guzzler

No it's not - feel free to search through the archives here for all my posts. It's simply a courtesy to the designer of a circuit who has been kind enough to publish it to a DIY crowd whose first response is "where can I buy a PCB?". As a free DIY design given in trust for "DIY Use ONLY", it's the polite thing to do.


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## colonelkernel8

Keep in mind that my board is based on a *derived* schematic of Kwak's design (modified) and power supply design of Guido Tent.

 I am not going to sell the board btw. Also, why do you want to shoot me down? Good god, its not even the latest version of the kwak clock, its based on version 6, I believe he is on 8 now, and he isnt releasing the schematic, only selling it built.


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## Crowbar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guzzler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"where can I buy a PCB?"_

 

Well, it _is_ for DIY only! colonelkernel8 is not selling anything. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I suggest next time you read a thread before hurriedly clicking 'Reply'.


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## colonelkernel8

I have encountered a problem while working on the Lynx Clock. The SM series of Os-Con capacitors does not exist, well, at least everywhere I have looked.


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## Crowbar

LOL, that's meant as a guideline, not requirement. Surface mount (short leads = low inductance) low ESR capacitors.


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## peranders

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guzzler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whilst the effort is admirable, have you checked with Elso before publishing this?_

 

You have stated your point of view before and if something is published by free will it is regarded as public domain. If you want to protect your designs, don't publish them. I remember a LM337 regulator which the design was taken from the datasheet. The design was own by someboby. Rediculous. Elso hasn't invented anything and besides that, the oscillator isn't hardly unique.


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## Crowbar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peranders* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Rediculous._

 

That statement would carry more weight if the spelling wasn't r*i*diculous.


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## peranders

I could have written "fånigt" but I'll guess writing in swedish is not good idea. I'll do my best in spelling.


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## Crowbar

I'm not one. I didn't know a word of English 15 years ago.


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL, that's meant as a guideline, not requirement. Surface mount (short leads = low inductance) low ESR capacitors._

 

Well I didn't know how critical a position those caps played, considering he even recommended them I figured he may have designed the rest of the circuit around the specifications of the cap.


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## Crowbar

Capacitor tolerances are pretty loose in general, so I doubt it. Use quality low-ESR low inductance capacitors and keep leads short.


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## colonelkernel8

Crowbar, you should be in the IRC right now...


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## colonelkernel8

I need to make some custom parts for eagle, the AD8611AR and the 100LP116


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## Crowbar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Crowbar, you should be in the IRC right now..._

 

I am--in mine. I don't want to hang around the wrong crowd like you guys too much


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## colonelkernel8

which is yours? I am in the rizon.net one right now.


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## Crowbar

Both of these clocks use TTL-type differential buffers which have risetime of several nanoseconds. I wonder what the jitter spec is of each. It may be interesting to try ECL or SCFL instead of TTL; they have risetimes fraction of a nanosecond. Here's an example: http://www.audiokit.ro/clock.html

 [Edit:] http://www.valpeyfisher.com/Products...ProductCode=XO they have < 1 ps jitter (in the 12 Hz - 20 MHz band) clock in the right frequency range; click on VFJC. This may be the best solution. No idea about pricing though.


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## Crowbar

Oh wow, check out the VFXO110, it's even better. Max jitter 0.5 ps, typical 0.2 ps. I don't see how one can beat that with a DIY XO, and it's better than Tent's latest clock and I'm sure KC8 as well. But how to interface it's LVECL output to the usual TTL logic without degrading performance...


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## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Crowbar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh wow, check out the VFXO110, it's even better. Max jitter 0.5 ps, typical 0.2 ps. I don't see how one can beat that with a DIY XO, and it's better than Tent's latest clock and I'm sure KC8 as well. But how to interface it's LVECL output to the usual TTL logic without degrading performance..._

 

And they probably cost like a grand a piece.


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## Crowbar

I seriously doubt it will be significantly more expensive than other commercial (not boutique audiophile) clocks, especially in a group order. *hint*


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## colonelkernel8

Well, can you design a schematic that will efficiently interface the crystal? If you can, Id be happy to make a board for it.


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## colonelkernel8

http://www.tlsi.com/images/T73LVP21.pdf

 Would that work?


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## Crowbar

Yes. I'm not 100% sure it's need though. Depends on the DAC's inputs etc. I'd ask the company about the best way of interfacing to standard logic like DACs to retain optimal jitter performance.
 BTW, I've emailed them to ask for phase noise figure for the 10 Hz which is missing from their specs. Then I can compare directly to the Tent Labs XO and see if my suspicion that this is better bears out. When they reply I'll ask them about pricing.


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## Crowbar

You guys will get a laugh out of this:
 I had couple of email exchanges with Valpey Fisher, but in my last email reply to them when I was asked the clock frequencies I was interested in (previously I asked for 10 Hz offset performance), I wrote back 24.576 and 22.5792 MHz.
 After that there was no longer a reply. Hah! They must have thought me an audiophile for obviously asking about audio DAC clocks. I even emailed a second time to make sure they didn't miss my email. Nothing.
 I guess they're just 'audiophool' haters


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