# Can I bi-amp my speakers?



## Shermanator

Hello guys/gals,
   
  I'm very new to A/V equipment, but have just received a bunch of stuff for Christmas.
   
  I have this receiver: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Pioneer+Receivers/VSX-821-K
   
   
  I have these speakers: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-d368q2vvYCb/p_107RTI4B/Polk-Audio-RTi4-Black-oak-finish.html#details-tab
   
   
  I realize the Polks allow for bi-amping. I am just trying to figure out if bi-amping the two Polks is going to work with a 5.1 receiver. 
   
  I am just looking to run a 2.1 setup ( two speakers and a sub) for my home gym. Right now, I am only using channel "A"(speakers) and channel "B"(subwoofer).
   
  With this setup, my "surround" is not being used. I figure that could be hooked up to my speakers, doubling the power.
   
  Am I correct? Will this be too much power going to the speakers?
   
  Anything else I should know?
   
  Thank you very much in advance,
   
  Connor


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## PurpleAngel

What your asking about is Bi-wiring, not Bi-amping.
  As far as I can tell, the VSK-821-K (5.1) does not support Bi-wiring.
  I'm guessing Bi-wiring is more for true 7.1 receivers.
   
  Take the Pioneer back and get a receiver that supports bi-wiring, I like the Yamaha RX-A700 & RX-V667.


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## Shermanator

Thanks for the response.
   
  Unfortunately, the two receivers you have listed are out of the price range. This is purely a gym set-up, I cannot justify spending anymore money than I already have.
   
  I guess I am just confused as to why my L and R "surround" can't be connected to my L and R front speakers....
   
  I have sent an email to Pioneer to try and get some definitive answers.


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





shermanator said:


> Thanks for the response.
> Unfortunately, the two receivers you have listed are out of the price range. This is purely a gym set-up, I cannot justify spending anymore money than I already have.
> I guess I am just confused as to why my L and R "surround" can't be connected to my L and R front speakers....
> I have sent an email to Pioneer to try and get some definitive answers.


 

 I'm guessing one way Pioneer controls the cost is to limit what features goes into each receiver.
  I'm also guessing 9 out of 10 people would go 5.1 instead of 2.1 bi-wiring.
  Also most people that spend that amount of money on a receiver would not spend that much money for bi-wire/Bi-amping capable  speakers.
  Good luck.


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## wuwhere

You should be able to biamp your speakers with your 5.1 receiver. Essentially, your receiver has 2 stereo amps plus one mono amp for the subwoofer. So the front channels can feed the L/R mid-tweeters and the rear channels can feed the L/R woofers.
   
  One more thing, your speakers should have 2 pairs of terminals and those are connected by a wire or a metal bracket. Remove them first before biamping them.


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> You should be able to biamp your speakers with your 5.1 receiver. Essentially, your receiver has 2 stereo amps plus one mono amp for the subwoofer. So the front channels can feed the L/R mid-tweeters and the rear channels can feed the L/R woofers.
> One more thing, your speakers should have 2 pairs of terminals and those are connected by a wire or a metal bracket. Remove them first before biamping them.


 

 I download the manual for his Pioneer, could not find any Bi-wire or Bi-amping settings at all (but sometimes I do miss somethings).
  But i really doubt he will be able to setup bi-wiring/Bi-amping.


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## Shermanator

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> You should be able to biamp your speakers with your 5.1 receiver. Essentially, your receiver has 2 stereo amps plus one mono amp for the subwoofer. So the front channels can feed the L/R mid-tweeters and the rear channels can feed the L/R woofers.
> 
> One more thing, your speakers should have 2 pairs of terminals and those are connected by a wire or a metal bracket. Remove them first before biamping them.


 


   


  Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I download the manual for his Pioneer, could not find any Bi-wire or Bi-amping settings at all (but sometimes I do miss somethings).
> But i really doubt he will be able to setup bi-wiring/Bi-amping.


 

 In for wuwhere's response.


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## wuwhere

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I download the manual for his Pioneer, could not find any Bi-wire or Bi-amping settings at all (but sometimes I do miss somethings).
> But i really doubt he will be able to setup bi-wiring/Bi-amping.


 


  The manual does not tell you these things. There are two sets of speaker outputs, front and B. The front will be used normally for stereo. I would move the speakers to B and check that there's output to the speakers. If so, then the connection will be front to the mids/tweeters and B to the woofers of the speakers, that's how biamp is.


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## Shermanator

Just to give people some visual cues:
   
  This is what the back of my receiver looks like: http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff442/shermanatorx/003-3.jpg
   
  The "A" channel is being used for the front speakers, and the "B" channel is for the sub.
   
  It just feels weird that the "center" and "surround" channels are going to waste.
   
  Here is the back of one of the Polks too: http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff442/shermanatorx/004-1.jpg
   
  Sorry for all the questions and "jumping around", I am just trying to make sure I get some concrete answers.
   
  Can't blame a young buck for trying to get some better sound quality.


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## wuwhere

Quote: 





shermanator said:


> Just to give people some visual cues:
> 
> This is what the back of my receiver looks like: http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff442/shermanatorx/003-3.jpg
> 
> ...


 


  That should work for biamping your speakers. Make sure that you remove that metal bracket between the speaker terminals before you biamp.


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## Shermanator

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> That should work for biamping your speakers. Make sure that you remove that metal bracket between the speaker terminals before you biamp.


 


  Awesome!
   
  When you say it should work, I assume you're referring to using the "surround" channel....
   
  Would I keep my "A" channel the same(on the receiver and speakers)?
   
  So I would basically be connecting the R surround to the right speaker, and the L surround to the left speaker?
   
  Is this correct?
   
  Thanks again wuwhere.


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## wuwhere

Quote: 





shermanator said:


> Awesome!
> 
> When you say it should work, I assume you're referring to using the "surround" channel....
> 
> ...


 


  Yes, the A pair to the top speaker terminals and the B to the bottom speaker terminals.
   
  Make sure that you remove those brackets first, if you don't they will cause a short and your receiver will go up in flames.


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## Shermanator

Is the end goal of bi-amping just essentially doubling the power output?
   
  If so, that may pose a problem in itself. 
   
  My specific speakers recommend 20-125 watts per channel. I think if I bi-amp them, they will surpass 125 watts.
   
   
  Am I correct? Will this cause a problem?


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## wuwhere

Quote: 





shermanator said:


> Is the end goal of bi-amping just essentially doubling the power output?
> 
> If so, that may pose a problem in itself.
> 
> ...


 

 Your speakers will only use the power it needs to reproduce the signal it is being asked to. So it will never use all that power unless you crank it up and you have a large room.
   
  Biamping is usually done to increase power using the same amplifier model, to lower the stress on the single amplifier. This usually results in better overall sound.
   
  It can also be used to power the mids/tweeters with a tube amp and the woofers with solid state amp. In this case, care has to be taken that the sound is well balanced between the lows and the highs. The reason is the sensivity between the amps may be different.
   
  There are other reasons like using less powerful amps for the mids/tweeters and more powerful for the woofers.
   
  Of course, the cost is very high.


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## Shermanator

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> Your speakers will only use the power it needs to reproduce the signal it is being asked to. So it will never use all that power unless you crank it up and you have a large room.
> 
> Biamping is usually done to increase power using the same amplifier model, to lower the stress on the single amplifier. This usually results in better overall sound.
> 
> ...


 


  Alright, sounds good.
   
  I'll update this thread when I have gone through the bi-amping process, and have had a chance to listen to the speakers.
   
  Thanks guys.


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





shermanator said:


> Alright, sounds good.
> I'll update this thread when I have gone through the bi-amping process, and have had a chance to listen to the speakers.
> Thanks guys.


 
  It would be better to wire the "fronts" on the receiver to the woofers and the surrounds to the tweeters
 Fronts would normally receive/output the lower frequencies (for the woofer) then the surrounds.
   
   
  I'm far from an audio "expert" Shermanator, but I believe Wuwhere knows even less then me.
  I use to install stereos back in the late 80s and I've set myself up several receivers for bi-wiring,
  All those receivers needed to be told in the setup to run bi-wiring, which your receiver does not have.
  The setup wuwhere is giving you will be "weird" sounding.
  The front speakers create the main (full) sound, the surrounds receive different sound (info) then what the fronts get.
  The way Wuwhere has the setup you might get limited bass from the woofer on the Polk Audios.
   
  Also with this weird wiring setup, if you set the receiver to normal stereo, the surrounds would not receive a signal
  You would have to leave the receiver in an expanded stereo mode, were all 4 wires from the receiver would output a signal.
   
  Any reason you are running wires to the sub-woofer, when you should be running an single RCA cable from the sub woofer pre-out to the RCA input on the sub-woofer?
  Does the current sub-woofer have a cut-off, so it's only trying to output the lower proper freq. instead of the full range?
   
  Email Pioneer, give then all the details (model number of a components) of what your trying to setup, see what they tell you.


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## wuwhere

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> It would be better to wire the "fronts" on the receiver to the woofers and the surrounds to the tweeters
> Fronts would normally receive/output the lower frequencies (for the woofer) then the surrounds.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I never told him to use the surround channels. I told him to use the A and the B channels, the A (front) to the highs and the B (sub) to the lows.
   
  The output audio frequency and power should be the same on both A and B. The low pass filter is in the sub speakers, not the output from the receiver.
   
  You don't even know the difference between a self-powered sub-woofer versus un-powered subs. If you have a powered subs, you use the line out to the powered sub. If you have un-powered sub, you use the B speaker outputs to the subs.


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## Shermanator

I am about to do a setup like wuwhere outlined. I got confused at first with the surrounds(my doing), but I am going to use A/B channel on the speakers.
   
  I have just picked up a decent RCA cable for the sub, freeing up the "B" channel.


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> You should be able to biamp your speakers with your 5.1 receiver. Essentially, your receiver has 2 stereo amps plus one mono amp for the subwoofer. So the front channels can feed the L/R mid-tweeters and the rear channels can feed the L/R woofers.
> One more thing, your speakers should have 2 pairs of terminals and those are connected by a wire or a metal bracket. Remove them first before biamping them.


 


  That receiver does not come with any amplifier designed to work with a sub-woofer.
  All the amps on the receiver are designed to work with speakers, not a sub-woofer
  The only sub-woofer output on the receiver is the RCA  sub-woofer pre-out.


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> The manual does not tell you these things. There are two sets of speaker outputs, front and B. The front will be used normally for stereo. I would move the speakers to B and check that there's output to the speakers. If so, then the connection will be front to the mids/tweeters and B to the woofers of the speakers, that's how biamp is.


 
  You really think that Pioneer would leave stuff like this out of the manual.
  Pioneer has hidden features that they do not want their customers to know about?


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## wuwhere

What is the difference between a full range speaker versus a non-powered subwoofer?


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## wuwhere

You're so tied up with the manual. You want to read something that says you can do this or that. You think that all subwoofers are self-powered because you have not seen one that's not.
  Then when you saw that picture you got confused.


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





shermanator said:


> Is the end goal of bi-amping just essentially doubling the power output?
> If so, that may pose a problem in itself.
> My specific speakers recommend 20-125 watts per channel. I think if I bi-amp them, they will surpass 125 watts.
> Am I correct? Will this cause a problem?


 
  Bi-amping, using two "separate" amplifiers.
  Better receviers use separate discret amplifers for powering each channel, the Pioneer might use less amplifiers, but have each of them power (work with) more channels,
  think cheaper cost to make the receiver.
  Bi-amping makes each speaker(s) get a more dedicated amplifier (amps) to it's particular needs.
  Also watts is not the important part, it's amps
  Voltage X Amps = watts,
  Lots of cheap amplifiers will have low amps, but lots of volts, and be able to claim outrageously high watt numbers.
   
  When you bi-wires speakers, you could be changing factors the the receiver (amplifier) is not aware of.
  Maybe that's why receivers have a setting telling the receiver that it being bi-wired and yours does not have that option in it's setup.


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## Shermanator

Update:
   
  Sound has improved quite a bit.
   
  They are slightly louder and have a better sound stage to my ears. It's also very interesting switching from channel A and B; hearing the highs/mids and lows.
   
  I am very glad I went through with the process.
   
  Thanks for all the help guys.
   
  Edit: I am very glad I pulled the trigger on these Polk Rti4's, they sound sooooo good.


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> I never told him to use the surround channels. I told him to use the A and the B channels, the A (front) to the highs and the B (sub) to the lows.
> The output audio frequency and power should be the same on both A and B. The low pass filter is in the sub speakers, not the output from the receiver.
> You don't even know the difference between a self-powered sub-woofer versus un-powered subs. If you have a powered subs, you use the line out to the powered sub. If you have un-powered sub, you use the B speaker outputs to the subs.


 
  Your right, I missed read.
  Is there a high pass filter for the tweeter.
  Anything designed to work with sub-woofers would have a cut-off so the sub-woofer does not try to work reproduce higher frequencies.
  The pioneer has no way to limit the frequencies sent to the sub-woofer, does the sub-woofer it's have the cut-off.
  Why does the pioneer manual not explain how to hook up an un-powered sub-woofer to the speaker outputs, another hidden feature pioneer is hiding from it's customers?
  I really doubt the power section of the pioneer is designed to work with a sub.


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## wuwhere

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Your right, I missed read.
> Is there a high pass filter for the tweeter.
> Anything designed to work with sub-woofers would have a cut-off so the sub-woofer does not try to work reproduce higher frequencies.
> The pioneer has no way to limit the frequencies sent to the sub-woofer, does the sub-woofer it's have the cut-off.
> ...


 

 The cut-off is always in the sub because different subs have different cut-offs. And they also have different efficiency. Another thing is the impedance of the subs. If their nominal impedance
 is 4 ohms, I will never use the receiver. The impedance rating is specified in the manual.


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## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





shermanator said:


> I am about to do a setup like wuwhere outlined. I got confused at first with the surrounds(my doing), but I am going to use A/B channel on the speakers.
> I have just picked up a decent RCA cable for the sub, freeing up the "B" channel.


 


   


  Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> What is the difference between a full range speaker versus a non-powered subwoofer?


 

 I've never used or dealt with an un-powered sub-woofer, but there has to be a good reason that modern receiver manual do not come with any directions for installing an un-powered sub-woofer, why would a receiver manufacturer leave out a feature that can sale more receivers.
  Also the expense of putting in an amplifier to effectively power a quality sub-woofer would raise the cost of the receiver too much.
  I would also think that anyone that deals with un-powered sub-woofers would also get a separate amplifier to power it.


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## wuwhere

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I've never used or dealt with an un-powered sub-woofer, but there has to be a good reason that modern receiver manual do not come with any directions for installing an un-powered sub-woofer, why would a receiver manufacturer leave out a feature that can sale more receivers.
> Also the expense of putting in an amplifier to effectively power a quality sub-woofer would raise the cost of the receiver too much.
> I would also think that anyone that deals with un-powered sub-woofers would also get a separate amplifier to power it.


 

 Yes, absolutely, in a typical average home audio setup, you will only see powered subs. But once you start getting towards higher end, you will see un-powered subs, powered by huge amps.
   
  Check out Wilson Audio's subwoofers http://www.wilsonaudio.com/product_thor.shtml


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## BobMichigan

I currently bi-amp by PSB speakers with an older denon 7.1 receiver in a 2.1 system. My receiver is not set up for bi-amp either. I use the 5 CH STEREO mode. L & R goto the woofers, SL & SR goto tweeters. Make sure your receiver knows there is no center speaker. Of course remove the bridges before use.
  Good Luck Bob


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## Gerner

Hello guys, 

 Sorry for stealing the thread, but I don't feel like making a new thread for some of the same questions being asked already.. 

 I'm having some old speakers and an old amp.. 
  
 Amplifer: Denon AVR-1400
  
 Speakers: Jamo Classic 10 

  
  
 I've normally just plugged them into the Front A L/R and that's it.. 

 But then recently I've noticed there's some hidden treasures in the amp, or I think so. There's a possibility to bi-wire.. 
 I've then read about bi-amping with AV recievers by using Front A L/R for woofers and SR L/R for tweeters.. 
 So the question is how do I get the most power out of my amp to feed my speakers? 

 The amp has 5 x 80 watts, which I think is hardly enough to power up the speakers.. So I think bi-amping could be a way to give it a total of 160 watts? Or isn't it that simple? 

 Hope some can help.


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## samhain1969

Your speakers are capable of both bi-wiring and bi-amping, to answer your question directly...  However to do the
 "bi-amping" requires some forethought, a larger budget and for speakers and intended purpose of bi-amping (IMO) I'd go upscale on the speakers.
  
 Bi-wiring produces subjective results...  You MAY hear a slight improvement, you may not.  If you go that route, use 12GA-10GA quality wiring or just go single-wire 10GA-9GA and save the trouble.
  
 Bi-wiring and bi-amping explained:
  
 http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring


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