# Upgrading my front Mordaunt Short 302s... Wasting my time?



## NeilF

I'm contemplating replacing my front two MS 302s with either:-
 - MS 902i's
 - MS Avanio 1's

 The idea with sticking with Mordaunt Shorts is try and end up with a similar tonal quality to the remaining speakers? Amplifier is a simple old Yamaha RX-V461.

 The main improvement I'd be looking for is clear/fuller/better music (& audio generally, eg: movies) from my existing setup.

 MS 902i's can be had for about £115.
 MS Avanios for under £200.

 So no major price difference, but obviously less if better if the sound difference would be minimal.

 I would hope that these wouldn't be out of place sound wise with the remaining center, woofer and rear speakers?

 Any advice would be most appreciate...


 Here's a picture of my current setup to give an impression of the position of speakers etc etc (I'd basically be putting them in the same place as the existing 302s)... NOTE: They would be VERY tight depth wise in the bookcase, and RIGHT upto the back of it!


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## iriverdude

Move the center it'll sound lousy. Put the stereo speakers at the same height, move the right one from the cabinet. Buy a new amplifier. Buy new speakers.

 Don't waste your money buying new speakers until you get them placed to a better position.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Move the center it'll sound lousy. Put the stereo speakers at the same height, move the right one from the cabinet. Buy a new amplifier. Buy new speakers.

 Don't waste your money buying new speakers until you get them placed to a better position._

 

*groan*

"Move the center it'll sound lousy"
 I've played around with different positions, and it sounds fine where it is. Most importantly, aesthetically it looks the nicest where it is. Don't want a massive speaker sitting infront of the TV for example.

"Put the stereo speakers at the same height"
 You're telling me less than 1ft makes the slightest bit of difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"move the right one from the cabinet"
 ...and put it where? Again, aesthetics are primary. It's a lounge, not Comets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"Buy a new amplifier"
 No thanks... Can't justify the expense.

"Buy new speakers"
 See OP.

"Don't waste your money buying new speakers until you get them placed to a better position."
 Less that 1ft of height difference... LOL! Dear God! You'll be telling me to buy £30 HDMI cables next...



 I'm sure if this was a dedicated cinema room, with a limitless budget your comments might ring true, but this is a 'working lounge' and I have a limited budget....


 Anyone able to give me a more realistic/reasonable response?


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## iriverdude

Nice you ignored advice from Hi-Fi'er. You ignored my advice last time. Higher quality speakers deserve a higher quality amplifier, and proper layout.

 Go do what you like.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice you ignored advice from Hi-Fi'er. You ignored my advice last time. Higher quality speakers deserve a higher quality amplifier, and proper layout.

 Go do what you like._

 

LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Less than one foot of height difference! Seriously! You'll want a spirit level on them next... I bet I could move a speaker up and down by 10" all day long and you couldn't tell the difference...

 I'm all for informed advice, but only when it's applied with some element of common sense (& manners). If you're saying better speakers will make no different to my existing 302s fine... Thanks... That's all I was asking for


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## spacemanspliff

1" can make a huge difference. Experience has taught me that. Do what you like. Just be respectful when asking for advice.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *spacemanspliff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1" can make a huge difference. Experience has taught me that. Do what you like. Just be respectful when asking for advice._

 

I've been more than respectful. Read my initial post...?

 But unfortunately, when you ask a simple question, and get a somewhat condescending, _everything you have, and everything you're doing it ****_, response, you tend to take a little frustrated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And yes, that's the exact way it comes across when the response includes terms such as 'lousy' and basically comes across as _replace everything you have cos it's not good_...

 My question was quite simply in other people's opinions/experience would upgrading the front speakers give me any benefit. If you believe not, fine, that's useful.


 However, regarding the nonsense of moving a speaker up and down a few inches, in a real life example, such as my living room, and that actually making a difference... Sorry... I cannot agree... When I got my speakers I spent some time moving them around, putting them on stands, and at different heights, and couldn't hear the slightest difference.

 In a specialised room, with a better system, maybe... But not with the equipment and evironment we're talking about.



 Anyway, I had no intention for such a simple (& polite) question to result in an argument, so I apologize. But, to be frank, some people round here near to get off their audio hi-horses and understand some folk are just after simple audio system and simple advice... We not all after audio perfection...


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## iriverdude

A center WILL sound lousy in a enclosed space. Doesn't matter if it's your model or a £4000 center, it'll sound holly and boomy. I know I had similar layout, tried it for a week and made it sound horrible.

 You've got a low end amp- that's not a insult it's just a fact, so if you replace the speakers the amp isn't doing it justice. You wouldn't put sports tyres on a 2CV would you? Likewise you wouldn't put a Ferrari engine in a 2CV.

 I'd also use speakers stands not plonk them on the cabinet/bookcase.

 I'm just looking at it from my pov what would I do if I had your system? If you take offense at that, it's your problem- I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear.


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## driftingbunnies

If your budget is only under £200 and you are set with the way you want to place the speakers, then upgrading to those other speakers will not bring you a big change. It's not that he was trying to be condescending, it's just that the placement of your setup is not ideal. 

 If you were to ask avforums or audiokarma the same question, you would probably get the same answer. You're asking an audio inclined crowd so I don't quite understand what you expect for a reply. If you are looking for a more budget oriented crowd that will tell you that their latest speaker is the best speaker ever, audioreview is a great place for that.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A center WILL sound lousy in a enclosed space. Doesn't matter if it's your model or a £4000 center, it'll sound holly and boomy. I know I had similar layout, tried it for a week and made it sound horrible.

 You've got a low end amp- that's not a insult it's just a fact, so if you replace the speakers the amp isn't doing it justice. You wouldn't put sports tyres on a 2CV would you? Likewise you wouldn't put a Ferrari engine in a 2CV.

 I'd also use speakers stands not plonk them on the cabinet/bookcase.

 I'm just looking at it from my pov what would I do if I had your system? If you take offense at that, it's your problem- I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear._

 

Center Speaker
 Well, I understand you might think it's tucked away, but all I can say is, I've tried the center where it is, directly infront of the TV (on the unit), and even on its side next to the TV. I spent a lot of time moving, listening, moving listening, and trying to compare. I heard little or no difference... And certainly no boomyness to mention?

I'd also use speakers stands
 Again, I played long and hard moving the speakers around, and again I could hear no real difference on stands, 1-2ft up (from where they are), or where they are now. Why would you think stands would make a real difference? Height? Isolation? (note: They are on silicon feet).

Low End Amp
 Yep... It's a low end amp I guess. That said though, the 302s are obviously aimed at being the smallest speakers they can be, I suspect at a compromise to audio output. Where as the 902i's are six times the size, twice the weight, have a greater range and may therefore (hence my post) give a fuller, rounder and better sound?

2CVs and Ferrari
 Why talk rediculous extremes...? We're talking a reasonable amp using tiny speakers, or slightly more expensive bigger speakers...? And if that would help with the sound to some degree?

I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear.
 And what's that?

 I'm fully aware my amp might be a bottleneck, or moving from a 302 to a 902 might not be a big enough step to make a difference... Simply, I was expecting response along the lines of:-
 - "I don't think your amp is good enough to make real use of a 902i"
 - "There's really not much difference between the 302 and 902i soundwise, so don't bother"
 - "I've done such an upgrade and the 902i's will give you a bit of a fuller richer sound (especially with music)!

 I must admit I wasn't really expecting, "move a speaker up five inches for all manner of voodoo to take place" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Anyway, to put things into context, everything is subjective. I get the impression you wouldn't touch my system with a barge poll due to its poor audio quality. However, from my POV I don't value my "audio experience" important enough to spend thousands upon thousand on it. My current system is there to give me a friendly experience, with reasonably good sound, at a reasonable price, and very importantly without making my lounge look like Comets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We all have difference requirements, value sets and expectations. 


 Anyway, we've wasted more than enough time on this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Back to the question at hand, you seem to suggest my amp is not good enough to make use of the 902i's. Fine! Shame


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## Alai

Are Mordaunt a good brand? I've never heard of them...


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alai* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are Mordaunt a good brand? I've never heard of them..._

 






Avant 902i / Avant 900i / Reviews / Mordaunt Short


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## driftingbunnies

the thing about this hobby is that people can find joy in either buying the best there is or buying the best they can afford. You can find a better system compared to yours for about 300-400. It might take a bit of searching but it will be worth it in the end. Just because this is an audio forum, don't assume all our suggestions are out of this world. Most people ask for your budget before making their suggestion because we know this hobby is expensive.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the thing about this hobby is that people can find joy in either buying the best there is or buying the best they can afford. You can find a better system compared to yours for about 300-400. It might take a bit of searching but it will be worth it in the end. Just because this is an audio forum, don't assume all our suggestions are out of this world. Most people ask for your budget before making their suggestion because we know this hobby is expensive._

 

Out of interest then, a better system compared to mine for £300-400? What might that consist of then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I spent a lot of time before choosing my equipment, the main requirements being affordability (value for money), sound quality and also aesthetics...


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## driftingbunnies

Something quick and simple would be to spend about 250 on a pair of wharfedales and look for a vintage receiver or maybe a stereo HK receiver. I personally would look around the classified sections around you to see what people are selling. 

 For my first setup, I went to go get a cheap onkyo receiver for ~160 and a pair of paradigm titans and a paradigm center for ~150. You could always keep your sub you have now but I would recommend to upgrade it if you ever get the chance. Obviously you might not get the same deals as me since the titans and a center for 150 is a really good deal. However, if you budget around ~150 for a vintage receiver (got my pioneer sx 838 for 175 which i powers much better than the onkyo) and then use the rest for speakers, I'd be very surprised if it doesn't improve what you have now. 

 All my numbers are in USD so that should mean you might be able to get more for your money than i did.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Something quick and simple would be to spend about 250 on a pair of wharfedales and look for a vintage receiver or maybe a stereo HK receiver. I personally would look around the classified sections around you to see what people are selling. 

 For my first setup, I went to go get a cheap onkyo receiver for ~160 and a pair of paradigm titans and a paradigm center for ~150. You could always keep your sub you have now but I would recommend to upgrade it if you ever get the chance. Obviously you might not get the same deals as me since the titans and a center for 150 is a really good deal. However, if you budget around ~150 for a vintage receiver (got my pioneer sx 838 for 175 which i powers much better than the onkyo) and then use the rest for speakers, I'd be very surprised if it doesn't improve what you have now. 

 All my numbers are in USD so that should mean you might be able to get more for your money than i did._

 

Our requirements differ straight away then... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I wanted surround sound (for films etc) and to listen to music too. Ontop of this I did not want multiple amps and multiple speakers. Yes an AV amp compromises audio/music listening, but I'm willing to suffer that for a simple/less complicated/less cluttered life 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_(My 15yr old bi-amp Sony stereo which now lives in my study blows my AV system out of the water when it comes to music)_


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## driftingbunnies

If you want surround, then how is that a simple/less complicated/less cluttered life? You also don't want multiple speakers. From what I remember, surround sound requires multiple speakers. You are contradicting yourself left and right. Until you know what you want to accomplish, it will be difficult to make any recommendation.


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## iriverdude

^ A AV amp will do the job of stereo and surround, it's a compromise it won't do stereo so good. But it's still easier, and cheaper than going seperates. I think if your wife saw my home theatre she'd have a heart attack. Although as drifting bunnies said av needs more speakers, yet you said you don't want extra speakers. Surely you meant extra components? (if you want great hifi and av you'd use seperate stereo integrated amplifier for stereo channels then a av pre-amp plus poweramps for the remaining)

 I think your upgrades is limited being that it's the problem of family room...ideally want a bigger screen, higher quality speakers, higher quality sub, higher quality amp. But you can't. 

 You probably can't tell the difference between center in that cubby is because it's so bass shy. Once you buy larger speakers you will need to put them on stands.

 If kids are a problem could mount largers speakers to the wall.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you want surround, then how is that a simple/less complicated/less cluttered life? You also don't want multiple speakers. From what I remember, surround sound requires multiple speakers. You are contradicting yourself left and right. Until you know what you want to accomplish, it will be difficult to make any recommendation._

 

I'm sure you really are very confused by my requirements... No honestly... And you're not just playing the fool at all...

 Anyway... In an ideal setup I'd have what I used to have, a dedicated system/amp/speakers for audio, and a dedicated system/amp/speakers for surround.

 Quite simply now though, I'd like an easy life with just one amp and 5.1 speakers. I don't want multiple devices to worry about. That's why currently, I have one amp and 5.1 speakers and want it to stay that way.


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## driftingbunnies

So basically you want an all in one home theater in a box? I'm sure there are plenty of those. However, the only AV receivers that I trust to also be musical would be the marantz, pioneer elite, or adcom receiver they came out with. Other than that, one amp and 5.1 speakers for your tv would sound disgustingly bad if you connected your headphone out into an integrated amp. Plus to find a good quality 5.1 integrated amp will be difficult too. 

 So to sum up, no, those speakers that you are looking at are not worth it right now. Wait until you're serious about upgrading and get one of the higher quality AV receivers I mentioned up there before asking about speakers again. 

 what I don't understand is that I said you could get a cheap onkyo receiver which does do 5.1 yet you said your requirements are different.


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## iriverdude

He's already got a (I presume rears as well) 5.1 system with av amplifier. A home theatre in a box will be downgrade. He's looking at higher quality stereo speakers. New ones may provide better quality but that means buying a new center speaker too, and won't get the best out of them until he changes the av amplifier. Then looking at new sub may want a couple of Velodyne 1812's. Then maybe several Pioneer 6090's, one for each person so they can watch own channel.

 well you get the point


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So basically you want an all in one home theater in a box? I'm sure there are plenty of those._

 

In effect yes... Before getting my current system, I looked at the all in one surround sound systems (true threater in a box), but in the end spent moreto instead get my current amp and speakers, knowing that it was almost certainly a better sound and more expandable (ie: more inputs etc).

  Quote:


 However, the only AV receivers that I trust to also be musical would be the marantz, pioneer elite, or adcom receiver they came out with. Other than that, one amp and 5.1 speakers for your tv would sound disgustingly bad if you connected your headphone out into an integrated amp. Plus to find a good quality 5.1 integrated amp will be difficult too. 

 So to sum up, no, those speakers that you are looking at are not worth it right now. Wait until you're serious about upgrading and get one of the higher quality AV receivers I mentioned up there before asking about speakers again. 
 

So if you were suggesting a replacement amp, giving better musical output than my existing one, what would it be out of interest?


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## iriverdude

How about a Arcam AV amplifier? But they're quite expensive and would be silly using £100 speakers with one..so you need to buy higher quality speakers and and and..


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## driftingbunnies

All the receivers I mentioned are $1k and up. That just shows you how much you need to invest if you want something good for HT and something decent for music all in one box. While you might be ignoring iriverdude, he makes a good point. I personally would not use a 1k+ receiver with ~100-200 dollar speakers. That just seems dumb. No matter how clean your sound or how musical it is, your speakers won't be able to produce it. So you have two options: wait or upgrade piece by piece. Hopefully if you were to get an amp now, you won't assume that you're finished. However, if you want to be done and all you want to do is just buy something new, you might as well save your money since the upgrade will only be marginally better.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He's looking at higher quality stereo speakers. New ones may provide better quality but that means buying a new center speaker too, and won't get the best out of them until he changes the av amplifier._

 

That intrigues me... If I get superior front stereo speakers, why would that force a new center speaker?

 And keep in mind, I'm not fussed if I don't get the best out of them, only if they will be a noticable improvement.

 ps: I think one fundamental problem with bigger/better stereo speakers is many of them are rear ported? If my understanding of this is correct, then putting them in space where the rear of them is right up against the rear of my bookcase really wouldn't be good!? Is that really an issue or not?


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## iriverdude

To match the drivers, to keep left to right panning even in tone, and hard to explain but center just won't cope, I had largest floorstanders from a range with the matching center (from the same range) stupidly the speaker maker did not make a physically larger center with more drivers to provide the same frequency response even close to mains.

 Imagine using a PC satellite speaker for your center in existing system. Bit like that, when you watch a movie it just sounds off. I had to upgrade center to a higher quality/physically larger speaker. Man that was a huge upgrade. And that center speakers alone cost more than your plasma TV.

 Not all speakers are rear ported, my floorstanders are front ported, some are rear ported, some sealed, same for standmounts.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To match the drivers, to keep left to right panning even in tone, and hard to explain but center just won't cope, I had largest floorstanders from a range with the matching center (from the same range) stupidly the speaker maker did not make a physically larger center with more drivers to provide the same frequency response even close to mains.

 Imagine using a PC satellite speaker for your center in existing system. Bit like that, when you watch a movie it just sounds off. I had to upgrade center to a higher quality/physically larger speaker. Man that was a huge upgrade. And that center speakers alone cost more than your plasma TV.

 Not all speakers are rear ported, my floorstanders are front ported, some are rear ported, some sealed, same for standmounts._

 

Not sure I entirely follow?

 Let's say for argument I upgrade my stereos for 902is, and they do indeed improve music a nice amount. I'm having a problem seeing how that will throw off my center speaker? Volume wise nothing will differ, and from a tone point of view the center speaker surely couldn't be that different sounding so as to make things sound worse in a 5.1 environment?

 But I guess this is a major concern, could 902i's (for example) sound so out of place with the remaining speakers? Surely not?


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All the receivers I mentioned are $1k and up. That just shows you how much you need to invest if you want something good for HT and something decent for music all in one box. While you might be ignoring iriverdude, he makes a good point. I personally would not use a 1k+ receiver with ~100-200 dollar speakers. That just seems dumb. No matter how clean your sound or how musical it is, your speakers won't be able to produce it. So you have two options: wait or upgrade piece by piece. Hopefully if you were to get an amp now, you won't assume that you're finished. However, if you want to be done and all you want to do is just buy something new, you might as well save your money since the upgrade will only be marginally better._

 

Oh I see... No, I don't think I'd be in that league/price range... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have a £250 amp with LR front speakers worth sub £100... If I could spend £200 (or less) on some front speakers to help improve music a bit, without upsetting the 5.1, then that to me is attractive... If not, then I'm happy to leave it be...


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## iriverdude

It's hard to explain - in theory your center should be fine as it may closely match new MS speakers, but in practice it won't, I've had that experience - and mates into home theatre too, with using higher quality mains with lower quality center then trying out a higher quality center. It's not something I can explain, you will notice it. Suffice to say anyone who's heard a good quality center similar to quality of mains wouldn't go back to the lower quality model. The center is incredibly important. Imagine using your TV speakers for the center, you just wouldn't do it. The quality gap between your new stereo speakers will make that gap between them and the center so much greater.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's hard to explain - in theory your center should be fine as it may closely match new MS speakers, but in practice it won't, I've had that experience - and mates into home theatre too, with using higher quality mains with lower quality center then trying out a higher quality center. It's not something I can explain, you will notice it. Suffice to say anyone who's heard a good quality center similar to quality of mains wouldn't go back to the lower quality model. The center is incredibly important. Imagine using your TV speakers for the center, you just wouldn't do it. The quality gap between your new stereo speakers will make that gap between them and the center so much greater._

 

Well, I'd be willing in that case to upgrade the center speaker to a 905i, EXCEPT it wouldn't fit


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## iriverdude

Then you'll need to buy a new av rack  Also a new higher powered av amp may get quite hot in that cabinet. And being the 905i may get in the way of the plasma stand so want to wall mount it. But that means it's about 1' further away so want a bigger TV. ah sod it get 6090


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## NeilF

LOL!

 The cabinate space for the center speaker is 161mm (high)... The 905 is 165mm... Grrr...


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## iriverdude

And I bet if you place it in front of the TV the bottom of the TV screen is blocked. I had that problem myself had to buy a dedicated plasma standard. £300 for that alone.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And I bet if you place it in front of the TV the bottom of the TV screen is blocked. I had that problem myself had to buy a dedicated plasma standard. £300 for that alone._

 

No, the TV stand is in the way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So, assuming it's not worth the risk of the 902i's because:-
 a) They are rear ported, and it will be a tight fit on the bookshelves.
 b) If I need to upgrade the center speaker, the matching 905 won't match...

 Is there an obvious alternative for the front pair with something of a similar size, not rear ported, and that has a matching center speaker 160mm or less in height?

 That or am I really just wasting my time and/or risking upsetting an already happy audio system here?


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## iriverdude

Rear ported speakers placed near the wall and in a bookshelf will sound horrible -you shouldn't block the airflow around the port. And it'll just sound a bloaty mess.

 Upgrading center is natural progression getting a higher quality home theatre. Everyone I know into home theatre has upgraded center as they upgraded mains. They did not keep there first center budget speaker when they purchased higher quality stereo speakers (and indeed once moving to av pre-power rather than av amp)

 Upgrading is not wasting your time, and you will enjoy higher quality system, every time I watch a movie it puts a huge grin on my face, but it does seem on a really tight budget. Perhaps buy something to aid ease of use maybe a universal learning remote?


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## driftingbunnies

This just goes back to bad placement of speakers. You are limiting your sound because of your spacing issues. I'm sure if you rearrange your furniture (free) then you might be able to look at more options.


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## sochee

Yeah, and stop trolling people who are trying to help you. iriverdude usually trolls pretty hard, but you seem to surpass even him. People give you advice and all you keep saying is "LOL!" As everyone has said before, you can spend thousands of pounds on new speakers and they'll still sound terrible because of your horrid placement.


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sochee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, and stop trolling people who are trying to help you. iriverdude usually trolls pretty hard, but you seem to surpass even him. People give you advice and all you keep saying is "LOL!" As everyone has said before, you can spend thousands of pounds on new speakers and they'll still sound terrible because of your horrid placement._

 

I have to agree with this. Speaker placement is everything. After all, the way sound travels is affected by everything around it. Take your hands, cup them, put them around your mouth and say something. Your voice has changed and the sound is more directional. If you put speakers into a cubby, the sound changes again. Sound travels outward like a wave. (think of what happens when you drop a rock into a puddle, it travels outward in every direction). Think of what happens when you put the speaker into a cabinet, the sound waves travel sideways and get diffracted by the edges of the speaker itself, and by your bookshelf cabinet. You are changing the effective baffle area as well depending on your placement. Porting relies on airflow to allow the speaker to resonate at a certain frequency thus increasing bass response. When you put a ported speaker inside another enclosure, you are effectively changing the airflow and/or getting boundary enforcement as well which will throw off that naturally tuned bass the speaker maker intended.

 I think people here have given you a lot of good advice....don't always diss what you don't understand.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Take your hands, cup them, put them around your mouth and say something. Your voice has changed and the sound is more directional. If you put speakers into a cubby, the sound changes again. Sound travels outward like a wave. (think of what happens when you drop a rock into a puddle, it travels outward in every direction). Think of what happens when you put the speaker into a cabinet, the sound waves travel sideways and get diffracted by the edges of the speaker itself, and by your bookshelf cabinet. You are changing the effective baffle area as well depending on your placement. Porting relies on airflow to allow the speaker to resonate at a certain frequency thus increasing bass response. When you put a ported speaker inside another enclosure, you are effectively changing the airflow and/or getting boundary enforcement as well which will throw off that naturally tuned bass the speaker maker intended.._

 

Yes, it does indeed sound like rear ported speakers in a confined space, or up against something (at the rear) is a bad idea.

 That said, your initial commment (if we're not talking about ported speakers) in a confined space does come across as a little bit voodoo. If you're talking about the location of my exiting center or right speaker, these two speakers are sealed so (I'd imagine) the sound mostly eminates out of the front, from the speakers themselves. So I find it hard to see how placing my center and right speaker in their current locations could really affect their sound? There is no surface beyond the speakers themselves, only to the sides...

 And indeed time spent moving the speakers around and even placing them on stands seems (in my case) to verify no real difference in sound.

 To use your analogy... Say something to someone infront of you... Now put your hands either side of your face, about 1cm away from your cheeks, and not in anyway infront of your mouth... Now say something... Sounds the same...


 There is absolutely no intent to be argumentative or anything of the sort here, but in a lot of areas you tend to find people can get carried away with the theory, rather than the practicality. And I'm a fairly logical guy to I need to see and understand why something works or has an effect to believe it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Case(s) in hand:-

1) A rear ported speaker in an enclosed space.
 If there is sound emitted from the port (I believe there is?) then obviously covering it, smuthering it, is going to affect things. Makes absolute sense.

2) - Your speakers must be at the same height. 5" will affect things.
 Now, if you're in laboratory conditions, with high end equipment, I can imagine you might be able to detect this. But in a conventional room, with irregular wall, furniture, where you don't sit in a single chair in the middle of the room, I cannot see the logic in it at all...

 In my particular case (with low end equipment) I can detect no difference when moving speakers up and down by say half a foot. Do an experiment at home. Stand a reasonable distance from your speakers and move your head up and down 6"... Is the sound different?

 Furthermore, in many setups, you won't be listening from the exact center, and at the exact height of the speakers. As such, depending upon your position, the relative height (angle) to the speaker will vary. From one position, the left speaker may be at a far different vertical angle than the right for example.

 So unless, we're talking about perfectly setup home theatres, it is a completely unrealistic/unecessary requirement IMHO.



 Again, there is no attempt to cause arguments etc here... More a healthy questioning/reasoning really.

 And indeed, it's clear that if I contemplate upgrading my front stereo speakers, I risk my center speaker sounding 'out of place'. And in the case of the MS 902i's the matching MS 905 will not (quite) fit where I want it.

 But the question still sort of stands, if I were to put 902i's and a 905 on my system (ignoring space and location) would it sound better? Or is my amp at its 'sound quality limit' with the existing speakers, so putting on better speakers will not improve sound at all - This I have no experience or knowledge of, hence my OP I guess...


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## sochee

If you can't hear the difference between different placements of speakers, I'd say there's no point getting new ones.


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## iriverdude

Quote:


 If you're talking about the location of my exiting center or right speaker, these two speakers are sealed so (I'd imagine) the sound mostly eminates out of the front, from the speakers themselves. So I find it hard to see how placing my center and right speaker in their current locations could really affect their sound? There is no surface beyond the speakers themselves, only to the sides... 
 

It will. Perhaps because your speakers are so bass light you're not hearing what it does to the sound. I put my center (2 x 6.5" driver and treble) like you've got yours and moved it within a couple of days. Boxy, hollow and boomy sound. It's front ported.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sochee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you can't hear the difference between different placements of speakers, I'd say there's no point getting new ones._

 

Another unquantified 'voodoo' statement... Seriously, what does that ^^^ achieve?

 If I move my speakers 6ft, yes I can hear the difference... If I move them 6" I can't.

 Tell you what, for a laugh, let's both put £1000 on the table. You come around my house, sit or stand (your choice) in the middle of my louge and I'll happily move my speakers up and down 6" inches all day long... And if you can tell the difference you get the dosh... If you can't then I get it...


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It will. Perhaps because your speakers are so bass light you're not hearing what it does to the sound. I put my center (2 x 6.5" driver and treble) like you've got yours and moved it within a couple of days. Boxy, hollow and boomy sound. It's front ported._

 

Very likely... I think the speaker package as a whole is aimed at the woofer picking up the slack in the other speakers' bass... I think they all cut off at about 100hz?

 If getting a new pair of front LR speakers, if their location proved to be a problem, then I'd address that. ie: If sitting one in/on my shelves was clearly causing a problem, I'd look into moving it out.

 The center speak though, I would just have to live with that in that position.

 note: I don't really tend to have the volume on particularly loud, so the bass from the speakers may not be so much of an issue regarding their placement causing 'booming'...


 But the basic black and white question is, will improved/better front LR (& possibly center) speakers improve my sound clarity. Or is amp as clear/good as it's going to get with these small little MS speakers?


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## warpdriver

don't bother upgrading IMO.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_don't bother upgrading IMO._

 

So you recon - ignoring speaker placement - if I put say MS 900s across my front, I'd not notice an improvement? OK.. Shame


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## iriverdude

Once you get larger speakers you cannot ignore speaker placement.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Once you get larger speakers you cannot ignore speaker placement._

 

I wouldn't... But the question is null and void if the opinion is adding such speakers to my amp will not improve the sound...

 It's a logical progression really:-
 1) Will better speakers improve sound? If no (stop), if yes (contiue)
 2) Do you need to move the speakers? If no (continue), if yes (can you move them where required)
 3) Buy speakers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If (1) is a 'no' nothing else is of importance... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've had no experience of adding 'better' speakers to a low end amp, so have no idea if it's worthwhile or not... Hence advice being so useful...


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## iriverdude

1) Yes
 2) Yes


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) Yes
 2) Yes_

 

Aha, so there some light at the end of my spend-some-money-tunnel then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Of course, interesting some people have thusfar said the opposite...


 So if I go off, and look for some non-rear-ported bookshelf speakers, whose center speaker is less than 165mm high, and take it from there...

 If I get just the LR speakers and they can fit in my ideal locations (ie: where the existing ones are) then great. If not then I can move/stand them as necessary.

 If then the center speaker sounds out of place I can get the matching center speaker... However I really cannot see it living anywhere other there where the current one is. So I'm guessing if there is a 'boom' issue with it I either live with it, or possibly - can't recall - see if there's something in the amp that can cut off the lower frequencies. (I don't think there is... I think it's an all or nothing setting across all speakers).


 I guess the most important thing to come out of this thread is the fact that I might need to consider replacing the center as a result of changing the front L&R... Hadn't considered that at all!


 Any particular makes/models come to mind?


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## iriverdude

I did not say it's k to leave them where they are now. Do not cram a new center and right speaker where they are now.

 Your av amp has crossover probably just small/large. I'd leave them on small.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did not say it's k to leave them where they are now. Do not cram a new center and right speaker where they are now._

 

I'd try them where they are now, and in other places - Just like I did (carefully) with my current setup... If they can go in aesthetic places without too much of a compromise, then great. If not, then I'd move them...


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## driftingbunnies

To me, they don't look aesthetic at all in those places but I guess they do to you. New speakers will always sound better. The degree to how much better depends on the rest of your equipment. It's hard to know exactly which amp you have, but looking at the picture it doesn't look like something that might be able to power some maggies. Just find a place where you can bring speakers back and try them out. There's not really a point to keep going with this thread until you start taking action. Go to an audio store and just find one that has a return policy so you can grab a pair of their cheapest speakers and see if location does really matter to your ears. Then maybe we should be talking about brands and stuff. Even then, we have other threads already discussing those topics.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To me, they don't look aesthetic at all in those places but I guess they do to you._

 

LOL - The ideal aesthetic position would be so you couldn't see them at all... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The thing for me is they stand out as little as possible, without compromising the sound (much).

 For example, as I said earlier, I tried the center speaker up on the TV unit and it made no difference and looked terrible, so down it went, tucked away...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_New speakers will always sound better. The degree to how much better depends on the rest of your equipment. It's hard to know exactly which amp you have, but looking at the picture it doesn't look like something that might be able to power some maggies. Just find a place where you can bring speakers back and try them out. There's not really a point to keep going with this thread until you start taking action. Go to an audio store and just find one that has a return policy so you can grab a pair of their cheapest speakers and see if location does really matter to your ears. Then maybe we should be talking about brands and stuff. Even then, we have other threads already discussing those topics._

 

The amp is listed in the OP - Yamaha RX-V461.

 I remember a while back I plugged in a big old pair of Mission speakers, and I actually thought at the time they didn't sound as clear/crisp... But they were old, so probably not a good test/comparison...


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## driftingbunnies

I'm sure you can still milk that yamaha a bit more then. Like i said, just go see if any audio dealers will let you take a pair home to listen for a day and see what you think. I was surprised how much clearer my titans were after I had them on stands and after they've been placed further away from my tv. They were cramped before but now it seems like they can breathe. In my experience position matters. Just try focusing your speakers to pinpoint one spot and sit there. Maybe you'll notice a difference. Oh and try playing music instead of watching a movie.


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## Alai

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilF* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





Avant 902i / Avant 900i / Reviews / Mordaunt Short_

 

Interesting. I wonder if a local audio shop has any of these I can demo...

 Honestly, I distrust professional reviews completely and utterly in the audio world (actually with most things, but audio in particular). That's why I surf audio forums rather than audio publications so that I can get personal experiences and opinions that don't have monetary motivation. Audio reviews almost NEVER say negative things about the products they review. This includes headphones, speakers, amps, etc. If the product is even remotely good, the negatives are basically ignored.


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## NeilF

Interesting development...

 Managed to find someone who had the same Mordaunt Short Avant Premiere speakers (302 front/rear, 304 center, 308 woofer) as I currently do. They contacted Peter Tyson asking could they just upgrade their their front 302s to 902i's without the 304 sounding out of place.

 Peter Tyson said they were still a good match, so he upgraded and said there was a good improvement from the front LR speakers, and the 304 still sounds in keeping.

 Out of interest, he's also going to try pushing the 902i's right up against the wall to see if this has any adverse effect... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ps: His amp, although a higher spec, is also a Yamaha


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## driftingbunnies

The reasons to upgrade the center along with your fronts is so that the timbre and tones match throughout your system. If you make your fronts overpower the center, it won't make too much of a difference if you mismatch. If that was the case however, you might as well get rid of the center. I feel like once you get to a certain level, the center will sound "ok" but if you were serious about audio like iriverdude, you might be willing to drop 1k+ for a center. 

 Personally I have a matching paradigm center with my HT system and it blends perfectly. I have yet to hear a different center in my system but I can just imagine trying to pair my onix with my paradigm. The onix has much more detail and rounded tones comparatively. I wouldn't even need to hook up my center if I were to use my Onix for HT rather than my paradigms. 

 Amps will always "work". however, it might be hindering the potential of your speakers. So if you don''t get a new amp, your new speakers will play just fine.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The reasons to upgrade the center along with your fronts is so that the timbre and tones match throughout your system. If you make your fronts overpower the center, it won't make too much of a difference if you mismatch. If that was the case however, you might as well get rid of the center. I feel like once you get to a certain level, the center will sound "ok" but if you were serious about audio like iriverdude, you might be willing to drop 1k+ for a center. 

 Personally I have a matching paradigm center with my HT system and it blends perfectly. I have yet to hear a different center in my system but I can just imagine trying to pair my onix with my paradigm. The onix has much more detail and rounded tones comparatively. I wouldn't even need to hook up my center if I were to use my Onix for HT rather than my paradigms. 

 Amps will always "work". however, it might be hindering the potential of your speakers. So if you don''t get a new amp, your new speakers will play just fine._

 

How could the fronts 'overpower' the center? Surely the only thing being talked about here is audio quality, not volume?

 I would image the concern would be if the fronts produced a far different tonal sound/qhality, which was out of place/character with the center one?

 Additionally the center is not used for listening to music (usually), and then in surround typically the center is used for slight different audio than the fronts (eg: dialog & center fill in?).


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## driftingbunnies

Basically. I'm not talking about volume, but things like detail, tonal sound, timbre. For example, if i'm playing an acoustic song through my onix, I get a more round tonal balance and a more relaxed treble. My paradigm would have a slightly higher treble energy and not as round tones. Now with my paradigm center, the treble would match and everything would be dandy. However if I used my onix, the sound of the guitar might be conflicting. The tonal balance might be more prevalent during some parts of the song the treble might be too much in others. If your speakers aren't very high quality it might not make much of a difference since there isn't much detail to start with.


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## iriverdude

^ From someone with a low end center, once you move up the line you'll do a 180. A higher end center is about sounding better, with wider frequency response, more natural, able to play louder, and sounding great whilst going loud. You'd think a matching £200 center be fine, but trust me when you hear a higher quality center you won't bother with that £200 speaker anymore.

 A center is used for music, do you watch any concert DVD's? Multi-channel DTS, DVD-Audio or SACD? The center actually does more in a home theatre than the left & rights. For one thing most speech comes from that speaker, so is critical.

 I cannot understand why you're not interested in sound quality, after all if you are why are you upgrading left & rights? Why then ignore the center?


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ From someone with a low end center, once you move up the line you'll do a 180. A higher end center is about sounding better, with wider frequency response, more natural, able to play louder, and sounding great whilst going loud. You'd think a matching £200 center be fine, but trust me when you hear a higher quality center you won't bother with that £200 speaker anymore.

 A center is used for music, do you watch any concert DVD's? Multi-channel DTS, DVD-Audio or SACD? The center actually does more in a home theatre than the left & rights. For one thing most speech comes from that speaker, so is critical.

 I cannot understand why you're not interested in sound quality, after all if you are why are you upgrading left & rights? Why then ignore the center?_

 

If we assume the tonal response is much the same (as Peter Tyson and the individual who owns such a setup suggests), then all we're talking about is clarity.

 Given the choice of:-
 Left - average clarity
 Center - average clarity
 Right - average clarity

 Or:-
 Left - good clarity
 Center - average clarity
 Right - good clarity

 How can the second be anything but better than the first, as long as the difference/sound is not so significant it makes the center sound out of place.

 Of course, in an idea world you'd upgrade everything. But I don't want to spend what I don't have to... If I can spend £100 and get a noticable improve (with no real downside) in my front response, I'll be happy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So yes, I'd love to upgrade the center too, but if I can get away without doing it, fine...

 ps1: The individual I'm talking to has the same speakers as me, and has simply upgrade the woofer and 302s to 902is. And says it's been a nice improvement. He certainly doesn't suggest the center is out of place. And it appears he takes his setup/system far more seriously than I do...

 ps2: From your experience of ported speakers, are the ports there just to 'breath' and let air in/out of the speaker? Or are they actually used to emit bass sound (in some way)?


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## iriverdude

The latter. But the latter will show up the center. Will you be able to go back to the smaller stereo speakers after upgrading? Nope. Trust me you'll notice something isn't quite right if you upgrade stereo speakers. Take this from someone who's used various center speakers.

Bass reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The latter. But the latter will show up the center. Will you be able to go back to the smaller stereo speakers after upgrading? Nope. Trust me you'll notice something isn't quite right if you upgrade stereo speakers. Take this from someone who's used various center speakers.
_

 

I can understand how it might in many case... And might not in some others?

 Is it possible you've not experiences jumps across speakers from the same family which have very similar output natures?

 Anyway, it is a very important consideration, and I'm glad this thread has made me aware of it!


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## driftingbunnies

Even if there is no tonal difference, depending how large of a jump you make, upgrading the center is recommended. Sure if you jump one line up it might not make too big of a difference. However, if you jump one more after these 902's, are you going to keep the same center? I personally wouldn't because now you're two levels up and just cause they're in the same family doesn't necessarily mean they'll keep the same balance and tones. 

 To me you can't just make $100 differences at a time to hear a difference unless you start selling what you already have. There is nothing I can get for $100 that will be better than what I have now. But I guess if that's all you're willing to budget then there's not much we can do here.


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## NeilF

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *driftingbunnies* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Even if there is no tonal difference, depending how large of a jump you make, upgrading the center is recommended. Sure if you jump one line up it might not make too big of a difference. However, if you jump one more after these 902's, are you going to keep the same center? I personally wouldn't because now you're two levels up and just cause they're in the same family doesn't necessarily mean they'll keep the same balance and tones. 

 To me you can't just make $100 differences at a time to hear a difference unless you start selling what you already have. There is nothing I can get for $100 that will be better than what I have now. But I guess if that's all you're willing to budget then there's not much we can do here._

 

The speakers I'm talking about are $200 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If people are now suggesting the 902i's sound no different/better than the 302's then surely that's a new argument?

 Yes, in an ideal world I'd upgrade:-
 - My front spears
 - My woofer
 - My center
 - My rears
 - My amp
 - My TV
 - My car
 - My house

 Somewhere though, I'll draw a line between cost and return and practicality... Thus far upgrading/replacing the front LR speakers seems possible (jury still out though) and it appears it will improve sound hopefully without making the center appear out of place. So this seems like an all out win surely. If there's no downside and only better sound, great.

 If I later want to improve again, then most likely (from feedback) the woofer is next... Followed then by the center...

 If I do get the 902is and for some reason the center sounds bad (against first hand accounts) then I'll see what I want to do from there. Either return back to the 302s having learned an interesting lesson, or upgrade the center.


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## driftingbunnies

Why don't you just buy them and tell us what you think. Then maybe we can end this debate.


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## iriverdude

yeah it's only £200, I spend more on a audiophile volume knob. Maybe.


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## NeilF

Well, so far so good... A couple of days in the 902I's seem to have 'opened up'. You know what's it's like when you get new speakers and initially they sound limited and take a while to loosen up. But although I haven't done a direct test between the old 302s and the new 902I's I'll swear they sound fuller and more details.

 The cross over on the amp is set to 100hz, so the lower frequencies are not going to the 902I's, mainly as one of them is buried on a shelf so the port is completely covered.

 So, I'll give them a few more days and then do a direct comparison to see if I've wasted my time/money or not. But, unless I'm imagining it, I think the sound is definately clearer and warmer. A couple of times I've thought my amp was playing up when listening to some electronic tracks, but realised I'm hearing detail from electronic instruments in tracks I've not picked up on before (eg: synth clicks and buzzes that are suppose to be in there) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Next it's the woofer upgrade to a BK XLS200


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