# Sennheiser HD650 or HD600 - Do they really need an amp?



## benstat

Hi all,
  Do I really need a headphone amp with a Sennheiser HD600 and/or HD650? I ask because just buying the headphones will pretty much wipe me out, let alone having to spend the same again on a decent amp! I'll be using them for mixing music. I might consider buying an amp if the sound difference will be significantly better, but not just if it will be a little bit better.
  Many thanks for your opinions!


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## jasonb

simple answer: YES, yes they do. they need, and deserve a good amp.
   
  if you don't intend to amp then, then choose a different headphone. the HD555 or HD595 will still be open back headphones, but won't have the need for an amp in most cases. they will still benefit from and amp, but it won't be completely necessary.


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## Poetik

When I started out in head-fi I had an emu 0404 as a source/amp and even with that little thing I could tell the differences in performance between the HD595 and HD600.  If I could do it all again I would've paid the extra $50 and bought a HD600 instead of a HD595 even without a headphone amp.  Sure the HD650/HD600's deserve a headphone amp but it didn't take golden ears for me to understand that those two headphones were in a totally different league than the HD595. 
   
  If you do need a decent pair of "mixing" headphones, maybe try the sennheiser EH350 as those are meant for mixing purposes.


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## Dirtyworks

I have the HD650's, powered by a Mackie CFX12 mixer, that I use exclusively for recording and to be honest, they don't sound very nice when plugged straight to my iPod Touch - my HD428's sound better in that configuration. But the story changes as soon as I hook the iPod up to the mixer.


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## benstat

Thanks everyone. I have a fairly cheap USB audio interface, but it seems to power my Fostex T40's OK. If I buy an amp aren't I just colouring the signal more though? I want it as transparent and nuetral as possible for mixing of course. I won't be mixing at high levels (not a good idea in general anyway), so it all comes down to _quality_ really.


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## nikongod

Quote: 





benstat said:


> . If I buy an amp aren't I just colouring the signal more though?


 

 This is a tricky question. 
   
  What does Colored mean 
   
  Once you answer that, are the colorations from a big fancy amp worse than the colorations from a chip-amp that might not be able to drive the load (headphones) cleanly? Depending on your mood, you can find extremely neutral amps - amps that have a sonic signature thats VERY hard to pin down, and really just let the source through. A prime example would be one of the headamp Gilmore Lite or GS-1 amps - they are about the most true-to-source amps I have ever heard.


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## harpua

I was surprised to find that my little Sansa Clip+ DAP actually was able to drive my HD650's w/o any additional amping and produce an acceptable sound.  Sure it would sound better with an amp, but it was surprisingly (to me) good w/o one.
   
  Same thing with my headphone out on my laptop.  The HD650's sounded decent straight out from the headphone out.  Again, of course they sound MUCH better through my HDP (DAC/AMP), but weren't horrible without amping.
   
  So I would say, it's quite OK to buy headphones like the HD 600's or 650's and use as is w/o a separate headphone amp until you can afford to add an amp and or DAC.  JMHO.


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## jasonb

I received my HD650 and my HeadRoom amp/DAC the same day, so I had been used to the pair. Just for the hell of it I tried the HD650 with a PA2V2 paired with my Android smartphone and it was a mess. Sure it may be ok for very low listening levels, but that's it. It still sounds much much better paired with my HeadRoom amp when playing at low volume. The PA2V2 definitely could not cleanly drive them to enjoyable levels. It was pretty much what I expected when plugging them into an amp that is only powered by 2.4 volts. The HeadRoom amp uses a 15 volt power supply.


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## spydur

As someone who was using the HD650's un-amped for over 3 weeks i will say this:
  it makes a HUGE difference. I had ordered an audio-GD fun a few weeks back. I had also ordered an asus xonar essence ST (gaming dolby headphone purposes). I ended up getting the asus card 3 days prior to the Fun arriving. I will say the first 5 minutes of listening through the Asus's headphone amp put a stupid grin on my face. The details that opened up were like putting on a different set of cans(kinda). Sounds became more vibrant and alive, you could hear an elevated amount of detail in the music. I am listening to the FUn right now with the earth op-amp. Apprently this amp needs a few hundred hours before it sounds at it's prime. Even with that little fact(?) the music I am hearing is out of this world. The headphones are good... an amp makes them great!


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## benstat

Thanks again for your advice everyone. I think I've made up my mind to get the headphones first, and an amp when I can stretch to it.


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## jasonb

just don't be disappointed if they don't sound good to you. don't make any final judgments until you try them amped.
  
  Quote: 





benstat said:


> Thanks again for your advice everyone. I think I've made up my mind to get the headphones first, and an amp when I can stretch to it.


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## Mong0

HD 650 has been my very first purchase of a high end headphone. At the moment i received them i plugged them into my essence ST. At first i was extremely disappointed. I decided I would give them some burn in time and see what it does the sound. I later returned and I felt i could hear a very slight improvement but I still wasn't satisfied with it.
  So I went online and ordered the m-stage along with the class a modded opa627. I waited a few days for the amp to arrive and I tried plugging the HD 650 directly into my Zen X-fi instead of my ST. And guess what, there was barely any difference; the only difference was the changed FR of the source (the zen vs st).
  Anyway, the M-stage arrived. At first my jaw dropped at emphasized dynamics. The bass got tighter and the highs were brought out. However, after a few hours i realised that it was just that, a wow-effect. When i started to listen in a relaxed and focused state things started to fall. The bass was now tight, but it had lost all character and weight. The highs plus the very dynamic sounding character of the m-stage made the HD 650 into a kind of headphone I dont believe it is supposed to be, going from its "ground signature". By ground signature i mean the sound signature when I listen to the HD 650 and subtract any coloration or altering from the source and/or amp, where I get the hint of source/amp from using other headphones.
  Or in other words, to me it sounded like the M-stage was pushing the HD 650 more into a brighter sound. And the result was that the mids suffered badly and the warmth and smooth character of the HD 650 had disappeared, leaving it in a more crippled state. Despite the highs and everything, it sounded somewhat veiled because of the inferior midrange.
   
  This lead me into making a thread on this site where i posted some various observation listening to my gear. And i was suggested to get a tube amp, which i did.
  And I can now 100% confidently say this. Get a tube amp, or get another headphone. Compared to all the other SS options, this is in a completely different class. The warmth can now be heared in a sort of natural/realistic state instead of the "fake" warmth the HD 650 sounded like before. The highs are still very present, yet very relaxed and doesn't sound as "digital". And the bass keeps its weight as when i had it connected into the ST, but it sounds a lot like more the bass "integrates" into the midrange. It just sounds so smooth, as if all the different frequency ranges was weaved into each other. Listening to music from the amp feels like sitting behind a very tinny piece of glass, where on the other side all the music is in its purest form. I will never be plugging my HD 650 into any SS amp again. Unveiling/amping the HD 650 is not about bringing the bass down and the highs up, it is about giving them enough midrange love and it will sound very clear, smooth and most of all complete.
   
  The tube amp i got is the Argon HA2. It is only distributed in scandinivia and it has been very newly released so there isnt much information about it on the internet at all. I had a chance to listen to it in my local hifi store. Having also listened to a X-can V8.P, I believe they are very close in sound signature.
   
  Anyway, you should really try a tube amp with these, especially if you get disappointed at first listen.


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## Uncle Erik

Have you considered a used pair? You'll find the HD-600 used for around $200-$225. Used pairs turn up regularly at Audiogon, as well. And X2 on the Gilmore Lite/Dynalo. Excellent, clean and natural amp.


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## harpua

I don't think it's quite fair to categorically rule out all solid state amps as being good matches for the HD600/650's.  For example, many users on this site (not just me) are of the opinion that the Nuforce HDP (DAC/Amp) has a particularly great synergy with the HD650's.  I believe the engineers and designers of the HDP even used the HD650s as one of the headphones they were targeting to sound great with HDP.  In any event, imo, the sound of the HDP with the HD650's is very lush, warm, smooth, transparent, spacious and natural despite the fact that it's a SS and not a tube amp.  Also, imo, the tendency of the HDP to sound somewhat bright and detailed seems to mix quite well and act as somewhat of a counterbalance to the lush warm/dark HD650s.  All imo.


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## Caphead78

I have to agree with this, the 650s sound wonderful out of my Schiit Asgard SS amp.
  
  Quote: 





harpua said:


> I don't think it's quite fair to categorically rule out all solid state amps as being good matches for the HD600/650's.


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## Mong0

Quote: 





harpua said:


> I don't think it's quite fair to categorically rule out all solid state amps as being good matches for the HD600/650's.  For example, many users on this site (not just me) are of the opinion that the Nuforce HDP (DAC/Amp) has a particularly great synergy with the HD650's.  I believe the engineers and designers of the HDP even used the HD650s as one of the headphones they were targeting to sound great with HDP.  In any event, imo, the sound of the HDP with the HD650's is very lush, warm, smooth, transparent, spacious and natural despite the fact that it's a SS and not a tube amp.  Also, imo, the tendency of the HDP to sound somewhat bright and detailed seems to mix quite well and act as somewhat of a counterbalance to the lush warm/dark HD650s.  All imo.


 
   
  I am not trying to say that SS amps is a bad match. However I am trying to state that the ST and M-stage will be a very poor match, from my own experience - which could mean that a lot of amps in the same league will be as well.
  There is very much likely a SS amp which will synergize perfectly well, which is what i meant when i wrote that the mids should be in focus and not the highs/lows to remove the veil.
  Also the last line I wrote was key; I merely suggested to try a tube amp.
   
  However reading my post I can see how it can be interpretted as very anti-SS.


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## Mr C

Wait you want to mix music without an amp and want non coloured sound.
  Why am I the only one that thinks about the hd25. These babies are a legend in the pro audio business.
   
  To come back to the hd600, I dotn have them but I have the hd580, and they are extremely similar.
  Without an amp you will not hear decent bass, I dont have a top quality amp: hifiman ef2 it's barely enough to make them good. I tried them a coupel of times straight out of the pc and it managed to make to music sound boring.
   
   
  Honestly if you want neutral and unamped the hd600 would not be your best option. the sony 7506 or hd25 are the most commonly used


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## pp312

Why don't you just get a used integrated amp off Ebay? A good Marantz, Rotel or Denon will drive a 650 just fine and sound great as well. Don't be brainwashed into believing you MUST have a dedicated HP amp; it just isn't true.


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## harpua

Quote: 





mong0 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Fair enough.


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## saber8689

Man, this thread is just getting me excited. I've been listening to my hd650s out of a misterx portable amp and alien dac while waiting for my new little dot mk4 and musiland monitor 02 to come in....


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## Vandal

In a word, an emphatic YES.


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## spydur

mong0 said:


> I am not trying to say that SS amps is a bad match. However I am trying to state that the ST and M-stage will be a very poor match, from my own experience - which could mean that a lot of amps in the same league will be as well.
> There is very much likely a SS amp which will synergize perfectly well, which is what i meant when i wrote that the mids should be in focus and not the highs/lows to remove the veil.
> Also the last line I wrote was key; I merely suggested to try a tube amp.
> 
> However reading my post I can see how it can be interpretted as very anti-SS.








Wasn't the m-stage based off the linear? That said you can find many posts saying there is good synergy with the hd650 and the m-stage. I have found through some testig that replacing the stock HP cables with a heavily shielded OFCC cable bring the mids to life and keeps the lowend and highs in check. I've tried moderetely shielded silver plated OFCC and while the detail became even clearer, the highs became overbearing at times. I would not rule out SS amps for the senn's. The type of music you play as well as your hearing bias play a bug role In what your preferences can be. Just because you did not like it does not mean they are a bad match. You also mentioned you upgraded the opamp, did you try it stock for a little bit? When going from the ST what did you use for the transport cable?
Did you use the stereo output of the ST? If so, you do realize that the stereo output of the ST has an opamp that the audio passes through right? Your essentially running your music through 2 opamps if that is the case.


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## Blisse

You guys are making me poor... I feel like I should buy an amplifier now... Have to sell some stuff first though.


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## olegausany

It's all depends on the source you gonna attach them to because i'm currently enjoying my HD650 while driving them straight from Auzen X-Fi Prelude sound card


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## roker

don't buy the 555s or 595s
   
  you'll only end up selling them.
   
  my advice:
   
  buy the 600/650s, tough it out for a while, then amp them.
   
  Once you get the headphones, everything else will fall into place.


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## Mong0

Quote: 





spydur said:


> Wasn't the m-stage based off the linear? That said you can find many posts saying there is good synergy with the hd650 and the m-stage. I have found through some testig that replacing the stock HP cables with a heavily shielded OFCC cable bring the mids to life and keeps the lowend and highs in check. I've tried moderetely shielded silver plated OFCC and while the detail became even clearer, the highs became overbearing at times. I would not rule out SS amps for the senn's. The type of music you play as well as your hearing bias play a bug role In what your preferences can be. Just because you did not like it does not mean they are a bad match. You also mentioned you upgraded the opamp, did you try it stock for a little bit? When going from the ST what did you use for the transport cable?Did you use the stereo output of the ST? If so, you do realize that the stereo output of the ST has an opamp that the audio passes through right? Your essentially running your music through 2 opamps if that is the case.


 

 If you ask the people know, they will tell you that the BCL is not identical in sound to the m-stage.
   
  I dont believe in cables, sorry but im using a belkin interconnect, was like 35$ dollars. And yes but the ST has opamps, but you know what? So does a DacMagic and other popular dacs as well.


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## spydur

I should have made my post clearer about the Op-amps. the stock op-amp in the ST IMO is terrible. It makes anything sound hollow and lifeless. Most likely the combo used (op-amps) had a bad synergy to begin with. As for cables, i am the first at bat when it comes to being a skeptic. What did i do? i went and bought some el cheapo cables off of Ebay and made my own using the cards plugs. Believe it or not, the type of cable definitely makes a difference in the sound you can "hear" if you know what to listen for. I know i just opened another can of worms, frankly if your ears are sensitive like many here you CAN hear the difference. If not, well then enjoy cheap cables and be content you have reached your sonic plateau.


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## Andersslot

Quote: 





> _Originally Posted by *Mong0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif_
> 
> _The tube amp i got is the Argon HA2. It is only distributed in scandinivia and it has been very newly released so there isnt much information about it on the internet at all. _


 

 it has a Burr Brown Chipset the PCM2702E. with a 16 bit resolution. Sample rate is from 32 to 48. The Tube is a 6N2J from China. The tube is a copy og the USSR built 6N2P. and i agree i sounds great! I have ordered though a originaly heavy duty type tube, a USSR built 6N2P -EV, just to try it out, on other forums its belived to be a better sounding tube.


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## dyl1dyl

Get an asgard! Pretty cheap and drives the hd600/650 very well.


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## KristianT

The 650s when they are not amp'ed may actually sound worse than other cheaper headphones. When my old amp died I listened to my pair of HD-25's because without an amp they sounded better than my 650s without an amp. But now that I am fully equiped again the 650's are my weapon of choice. When they are properlly powered the 650s are a pair of headphones to fall in love with.
  I am currently running:
  PC -> Matrix Mini-I -> Lovely Cube Premium -> 650 (soon to be cabled by Chris_Himself)


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## Crazy*Carl

HD580 do not.  I used several amps with them and they sounded identical coming out of my PC or ipod.  I venture to guess the 600/650 are not much different.  Most of head-fi is bogus, don't believe all the reviews. Alot of it is not about good sound, its about subjective infinitesimal differences that these guys use as an excuse for an expensive hobby.  Sources are so good these days, spend your money on headphones.  Maybe the 650 does benefit a little, but i remain skeptical with all the bs i have read on these forums. The hd580/600/650 is one of the best headphone platforms around.  Infinity comfortable with neutral clear sound.
   
  If you dont believe me, ask yourself about the cable crowd.  200 dollar headphone cable... lol wow


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## Mad Max

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Have you considered a used pair? You'll find the HD-600 used for around $200-$225. Used pairs turn up regularly at Audiogon, as well. And X2 on the Gilmore Lite/Dynalo. Excellent, clean and natural amp.


 

 x2


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## Hennyo

Glite or HDP. Team HD 6xx.
   
  No they don't need an amp. Yes, you'll tahnk me I told you to get one..
   
  p.s. You're clueless Crazy-Carl.


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## Meewoo

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> HD580 do not.  I used several amps with them and they sounded identical coming out of my PC or ipod.  I venture to guess the 600/650 are not much different.  Most of head-fi is bogus, don't believe all the reviews. Alot of it is not about good sound, its about subjective infinitesimal differences that these guys use as an excuse for an expensive hobby.  Sources are so good these days, spend your money on headphones.  Maybe the 650 does benefit a little, but i remain skeptical with all the bs i have read on these forums. The hd580/600/650 is one of the best headphone platforms around.  Infinity comfortable with neutral clear sound.


 
  I happened to have HD580 also (HD650), and I totally disagree with you. I bought HD580 used from a local guy. He had HD555 and HD580 at hands. And he sold HD-580 to me for $40, since he used the headphone to play game. He likes HD555 better. We met at a station and he bring almost mint HD580 to me and I tried on my Sony X-1050. Holy crap, I did understand why he liked HD-555 more. HD580 sounds no sound-stage and my Sony can only drives it in a boomy, no detail and texture way. And I need to crank volume to 25, I normally only listen at 11.
   
  After I got home, I plugged it into my Pioneer Sx-1250 receiver. Wow, Wow, huge difference, the sound-stage opened up, which's almost as good as my modded HD555. But the the rich detail and texture really put HD580 in the high -end league. So it needs amp, and needs a good amp. My tube headphone amp is not good enough to drive HD580 although it can drive my AKG q-701 and K240 sextett well. So I have to pair HD580 with my vintage receivers or my type-A hybrid tube headphone amp. I got the damn good ( I like it more than HD-650) headphone for $40!!
   
  You can normally tell that HD-580 are properly driven by the open sound-stage and the decreasing (diminishing) of the "Sennheiser Veil". Huge difference!!


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## calipilot227

You will need a portable amp at the very least. My Headroom Total Bithead does an acceptable job of driving my HD580s (very similar to the HD600), but they will shine with a powerful amp. I just ordered a Hifiman EF2A ($169 USD), I'll post my impressions when it arrives.


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## Crazy*Carl

There is alot of people who say a total bithead sounds just like an ipod.  I have heard several headphone amps with the HD580 and they all sounded identical to an ipod/computer.  Including audio gd stuff which people claim enhance the hd600.  Lies.  How many of you do double blind tests? I have done them with every amp I have owned (then sold because they are total scams)


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## calipilot227

Quote: 





crazy*carl said:


> There is alot of people who say a total bithead sounds just like an ipod.  I have heard several headphone amps with the HD580 and they all sounded identical to an ipod/computer.  Including audio gd stuff which people claim enhance the hd600.  Lies.  How many of you do double blind tests? I have done them with every amp I have owned (then sold because they are total scams)


 

 I guess this is a very subjective matter then. I recently picked up a Denon integrated receiver on Craigslist for $20, and it does a much better job of driving my HD580s than the Total Bithead (which sounds better *to my ears* than my iPod). In addition to higher volume (which I'm not very concerned about since I listen in a quiet room at lower volumes), I definitely noticed more clarity at lower volumes. They just sounded so much more alive *to my ears.*
   
  So yes, while the HD580/HD600/HD650 can sound good without amping, many people including myself notice an improvement when a powerful amp is brought into play. If you don't need a portable amp, try looking around on Craigslist for a stereo receiver.


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## tankhd

No they don't. My iphone drives my hd600 to not just acceptable but loud volume. The amp may change the sound a little tiny bit. In fact the only way you'd be able to tell is by listening very closely with and without the amp successively for like 20 times, only then would the difference be audible. It is all BS and hype. People just want some excitement in their lives so they make it up.


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## i20bot

I stuck my 650 into my Nintendo 3DS and it sounded pretty good lol.


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## Onma

Bought a set of used HD600 and they sound absolutely fantastic, I can precisely hear all the different instruments and all kinds of music is a pure joy to listen to, as long as the source file is either lossless or compressed only once with a decent codec and a high enough bitrate (of course the mixing quality of the recording should be also high).
  
 The headphones are connected straight to the headphone jack in the back of a motherboard from 2007 (using ALC889), there's no electronic noise and there's enough amplification:
 set the volume slider in Windows above 45 out of 100 and it's already too loud for long listening.
  
 If I want to make slight tone changes, I can just use the equalizer APO.
  
 What more could an external amp or DAC possible bring to the table for these high-impendance, high-sensitivity set of cans?
  
 Unless their benefit is scientifically proven using both measurements and double blind tests, I remain sceptical.


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## alitomr

onma said:


> Bought a set of used HD600 and they sound absolutely fantastic, I can precisely hear all the different instruments and all kinds of music is a pure joy to listen to, as long as the source file is either lossless or compressed only once with a decent codec and a high enough bitrate (of course the mixing quality of the recording should be also high).
> 
> The headphones are connected straight to the headphone jack in the back of a motherboard from 2007 (using ALC885), there's no electronic noise and there's enough amplification:
> set the volume slider in Windows above 45 out of 100 and it's already too loud for long listening.
> ...


 
 The difference is not subtle. These headphones apparently change a lot depending on the source and amplification. I have been running tests with my hd600 connected from my iphone 5c, kindle fire hdx tablet, laptop, yamaha rx-v675 receiver and now the modi2u + magni2u and valhalla 2 and all combos sound different, with the two headphone amps providing by far the most pleasing experience. 
  
 There are a lot of people who cant seem to notice a difference. That iis great for them and their finances. But the differences are there. At this point I think that most of the people claiming they hear no difference with these HD6x0 when amped and connected to something like an ipod, it's mostly because of their source files: it doesnt matter what kind of amp you use, the principle of garbage in, garbage out applies, because the amp is only taking a signal and applying more voltage and current. It cant do magic. They are probably listening to a lot of not well recorded pop and/or lossy, low quality mp3s. 
  
 My opinion. take it as such. I strongly recommend that you get one amp. Back in 2007 when I decided to take the plunge to hi-end headphones it was really expensive. Now you have the O2 and the magni for 100 or 150. Go for it. And get something like the Crack of the Valhalla and try to see if you notice a difference. I am willing to bet you will.


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## Onma

alitomr said:


> My opinion. take it as such. I strongly recommend that you get one amp. Back in 2007 when I decided to take the plunge to hi-end headphones it was really expensive. Now you have the O2 and the magni for 100 or 150. Go for it. And get something like the Crack of the Valhalla and try to see if you notice a difference. I am willing to bet you will.


 
 Thank you for your input. I guess the DAC of my mobo (A-weighted dynamic range is 108dB) is good enough to not bottleneck e.g. the O2 amp?
  
 Also, it is hard to know how big the difference will be. Let's say with my current setup I get audio quality of 98%, upgrading to O2 would get me to 98,4%, upgrading a better DAC would get me to 98,45%, and upgrading to Valhalla the audio quality would be 98,6%. Unless the differences are much bigger, for most people the upgrades are not worth the money.
  
 This article also supports my thoughts: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html


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## alitomr

onma said:


> Thank you for your input. I guess the DAC of my mobo (A-weighted dynamic range is 108dB) is good enough to not bottleneck e.g. the O2 amp?
> 
> Also, it is hard to know big the difference will be. Let's say with my current setup I get audio quality of 98%, upgrading to O2 would get me to 98,4%, upgrading a better DAC would get me to 98,45%, and upgrading to Valhalla the audio quality would be 98,6%. Unless the differences are much bigger, for most people the upgrades are not worth the money.
> 
> This article also supports my thoughts: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html


 
  
 You are welcome. He is comparing DACs in that article, and even though I have not tried a lot of them yet, I agree with him, it's my hypothesis: I dont think DACs make a big difference in the audio chain. I wont invest a lot of money to test that assumption. I am more into amplification and speakers. 
  
 With all that said, I just went back to my receiver's headphone output and then the my Behringer mixer output, which is much better than the receiver's. No, the improvement with a good amp, at least with the HD600, is not as subtle as going from 98% to 98.5%. I dont how how to express it quantitatively, but it is not a 0.5% improvement. Maybe we can define a scale, but it is not as few as 0.5%, regardless of how you weight different attributes/features. 
  
 As I said, try them. Or dont if you are very happy with what you have. Enjoy your music/games/movies. If you feel the itch, get a couple amps and try for yourself. If you cant hear a difference you can simply send it back. 
  
 I will start testing my modi 2 uber against the DAC in my yamaha rx-v675 receiver. If it doesnt offer a considerable benefit, better audio quality that I can actually hear, it is going back. 
  
 Good luck.


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## Onma

alitomr said:


> You are welcome. He is comparing DACs in that article, and even though I have not tried a lot of them yet, I agree with him, it's my hypothesis: I dont think DACs make a big difference in the audio chain. I wont invest a lot of money to test that assumption. I am more into amplification and speakers.
> 
> As I said, try them. Or dont if you are very happy with what you have. Enjoy your music/games/movies. If you feel the itch, get a couple amps and try for yourself. If you cant hear a difference you can simply send it back.


 
  
  
 Every piece of hardware compared in the article also includes headphone amp.
  
 If I'm going to test out headphone amps in my home, I will need a friend (or a special tool) to switch the source so I don't know which one I'm listening at any given time. Then I will need some time to decide which one I prefer for my listening habits. When I've made my choice and the blind is removed, will the "winner" amp be one of the more expensive ones?
  
 You see, expectation bias is just one of the "bugs" evolution has brought about in our brain to facilitate survival, but they also often prevent us from making rational choices. For a surprising blind test result, see e.g. http://www.head-fi.org/products/sennheiser-orpheus-he-90/reviews/8951
  
 Even when you are able to discern between 2 amps, can you say the other is better or "of higher quality", or just simply different from the other? Is the difference not reproducible with a simple software equalizer?
  
 Answers to these important questions are needed, before spending money on external amps (over the integrated amps on concurrent motherboards) becomes justified.


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## alitomr

I really want to do the blind test but currently I haven't got the time to run the test with somebody doing the switching. So far The difference between the Magni 2 uber and the Valhalla has been consistently so big that I thought it wasn't necessary, but if you want an specific test I can run it for you this weekend. I can commit to do it and post results.


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## Onma

Thank you for your time! I think a simple test would be as follows:

 Your friend brings a few random sources of decent quality (laptops, smart phones, headphone amps) and a sound level meter to first normalize volume between sources. The less details you know about the sources beforehand (especially their price range), the better.
  
 Then just pick your favorite song(s), and start comparing sources (which are named A, B, C...) making notes as your friend changes the source when you wish ("OK, give me source X now"). Continue until you can do some kind of ranking between the sources or at least have found your favorite one.
  
 If differences are not found, you could try repeating the test with a lower/higher volume across the sources.
  
 If you include sources in the test which you already own, there's a great risk that if you manage to identify those sources ("Ha! Source C is clearly my Valhalla!") during the test, you will retain a certain fondness for them which can lead to biased results as you make the familiar source your reference which all the other sources will be compared against.


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## alitomr

I like this. I will see if I can get somebody to invest the time in this weekend. According to my experience testing these amps, it can take a lot of time to get to conclusions. 
  
 I will keep you posted.


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## Onma

Cool,
  
 today I very briefly compared a PC w/ ALC889, Samsung S7 and Macbook Pro with HD600 and a FLAC file and each source sounded equally awesome


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## alitomr

Nice.
  
 I have a calibration mic and use REW to calibrate and EQ my speakers. It should be good enough to level match all outputs. We'll see how it goes.


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## alitomr

onma said:


> Cool,
> 
> today I very briefly compared a PC w/ ALC889, Samsung S7 and Macbook Pro with HD600 and a FLAC file and each source sounded equally awesome


 
 I can´t deny that I find it odd, because in my case I notice differences with every source. It's still the same headphone, they are really nice sounding, a little laid back if you ask me. But I hear differences with every source. Maybe it's all in my head. We should know soon.


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## Whiterook2112

I have to agree with Jason,
  
 Yes they do need an amp.
  
 I love my HD 650's and my Woo Audio WA-7d!!!!!


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## L8MDL

I say yes for the 600's. For the road I use a Fiio E12 (+16db boost) and I just picked up a Valhalla 2 for home use. PERFECT! Source = Pono


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## redone13

There's no doubt that the high impedance cans do.  I tried using my 650s without one as a test instead of my Bottlehead crack and the results were crappy.  The soundstage was tiny and the volume was minimal.  That was on a Firestudio mobile as well as TC Impact twin.  My my Prism Orpheus they were fantastic but the crack with tube rolling takes the cake.


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## whitewartexx

alitomr said:


> I can´t deny that I find it odd, because in my case I notice differences with every source. It's still the same headphone, they are really nice sounding, a little laid back if you ask me. But I hear differences with every source. Maybe it's all in my head. We should know soon.


 

 Hi, created an account just to bump this thread. Has this test been carried out yet? This is by far the most interesting convo I've seen here (between Onma and alitomr). Or has it been carried out and there was no significant difference with and without an amplifier (or amplifier/DAC combo) when done with the test Onma suggested?
  
 Thank you!


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## schaefer

Without a doubt, compliment your HD650 with a nice amp AND r2r dac. I can't get enough of my HD650 with HDVA 600 amp.


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## danielwz

i think the best way to go may be getting a all-in-one machine, DAC+Amp. source is always more important than the headphone anyway. but it still does not stop us enjoying good music and instrument, happy listening


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## PeterMac (Jul 21, 2017)

jasonb said:


> simple answer: YES, yes they do. they need, and deserve a good amp.
> 
> if you don't intend to amp then, then choose a different headphone. the HD555 or HD595 will still be open back headphones, but won't have the need for an amp in most cases. they will still benefit from and amp, but it won't be completely necessary.


Not true, I use HD600 directly connected to Dell Venue 8 Pro Windows 10 tablet, and they play very loud even at 40% volume (max for my ears) with great quality similar to my Xonar STX II. They are easy to drive, they play with similar volume as my Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 ohm.
HD800 I heard are even easier to drive, so I don't know where are these 300 ohms


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## bagwell359

I have the 600.  I used to listen to them on a Denon 80's reciever.  You could tell they were good headphones.  But I didn't love them.  Then after a big sell-off/downsize I ended up with a Ragnarok.  Wow.  They were great.  Flipped over to a balanced cable and nothing I bring in can touch them with regular cables - except very exotic stuff  LCD-3.... .  So yeah, the better they get the better they give, and it's not subtle.


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## Pechius

Can anyone give me some advice please? I'm getting Audient ID14 USB interface for recording and I'm considering getting HD600/650. Do you think the Audient would be enough to drive them? I wouldn't be getting a dedicated hp amp anytime soon, so I wonder if it's worth it with this setup..

Here are the specs of headphone out:

*Headphone*
Maximum Output Level +12 dBu 

Into 30 ohms: +4 dBu
THD+N: 0.005% 
Power: 101mW 

Into 60 ohms: +5 dBu
THD+N: 0.004% 
Power: 64mW 

Into 600 ohms: +13 dBu
THD+N: 0.0025% 
Power: 39mW
Reference Level +12 dBu = 0 dBFS
Voltage Gain +6 dB (optimized for loudness)
Output Impedance <30 Ohm Balanced
Frequency Response ±1.0 dB 10Hz to Fs/2 (load dependant)
Crosstalk -100 dBu at 1 kHz & 10 kHz
THD + N <0.002% (-94 dB)
Dynamic Range 108 dB un-weighted
111 dB A-weighted


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## SeeHear

PeterMac said:


> Not true, I use HD600 directly connected to Dell Venue 8 Pro Windows 10 tablet, and they play very loud even at 40% volume (max for my ears) with great quality similar to my Xonar STX II. They are easy to drive, they play with similar volume as my Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80 ohm.
> HD800 I heard are even easier to drive, so I don't know where are these 300 ohms



Not for nuthin'; but more volume does not equal more better. Gnome sane?
If you have a high quality source, and high quality recordings, you will have no problem discerning the improvement better amplification provides.


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## KukoCL (Nov 12, 2018)

I have a pair of HD6XX from some months ago, and when i connect them in all my sources they dissapoint me in different ways:

*- iPhone 6s plus:* sounds horribly muddy and very low volume.
*- Galaxy S9+:* Sounds kinda good in details and treble, just boring without soundstage and bass. Doesn´t feel dynamic.
*- Galaxy S7:* Same as S9+.
*- OnePlus 6:* low volume and muddy, non dynamic sound.
*- SoundBlaster Audigy RX (PC soundcard): *While using the bit perfect feature and the high impedance headphone amp integrated in the soundcard, it sounds pretty impresive. Clear detailed sound, good soundstage, very enjoyable on rock music. Music feels vivid. I would only want the sound to be a bit more warmer with more punchy bass which is what i expected from these headphones.

I'd read many times it is not fair to judge these headphones without an amp, so i ordered a LD MKii with Mullard CV4010 driver tubes to give them a last chance when it arrives, because at this point, i'm feeling i'm just wasting money and i'll just keep my closed back Momentum 2 Wireless.


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## Wildstyle33

I have to agree with many on here. My experience with the HD650 is very similar to many users here. I definitely recommend an amplifier to fuel the amazing sound quality the HD650 has to offer. 

So far, I have used: 
--> iPhone 7Plus - soundstage is very small and instruments sound like the players are stuck in a claustrophobic elevator. 
--> iPhone 7Plus w/Dragonfly Red - improvement in detail and instruments sound more separated. 
--> MacBook w/Dragonfly Red - still very similar to iPhone 7plus w/Dragonfly Red with a little more weight (only noticeable on some tracks). 
--> MacBook w/Dragonfly Red into Schiit Magni - Much better! Dynamics are now present with clearer separation of instruments. Soundstage is also much wider. 
--> MacBook w/Schiit Modi into Schiit Magni - Slight increase in dynamics. Slightly smaller soundstage. Otherwise, sounds the same as the Dragonfly Red. Biggest difference is with the recording material, in that the Dragonfly has much better depth and better extension when the recording is stellar. Normal recordings can be hard to hear the difference. 
--> MacBook w/Rega R-Dac into Bottlehead Crack - Bingo! Now I can hear what all the buzz is about! Super Big difference in sound quality. Soundstage is huge, instrument separation is stellar; each instrument seems to have its own performing space, note extension and decay is natural w/o any etch, lots of depth to the music now as well. I can listen for hours on this setup. 

If you ask me, I would say invest into a good reputable amplifier and a good dac and go from there. I have yet to try SS as I have read on many threads about how the HD650 fairs much better with tubes than with SS. However, I have a Burson Virtuoso on the way and hoping to see if good quality SS can match a simple OTL Design such as the Bottlehead Crack. Which in my opinion is an awesome value for what you can get.


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## dolgen

KukoCL said:


> I have a pair of HD6XX from some months ago, and when i connect them in all my sources they dissapoint me in different ways:
> 
> *- iPhone 6s plus:* sounds horribly muddy and very low volume.
> *- Galaxy S9+:* Sounds kinda good in details and treble, just boring without soundstage and bass. Doesn´t feel dynamic.
> ...





KukoCL said:


> I have a pair of HD6XX from some months ago, and when i connect them in all my sources they dissapoint me in different ways:
> 
> *- iPhone 6s plus:* sounds horribly muddy and very low volume.
> *- Galaxy S9+:* Sounds kinda good in details and treble, just boring without soundstage and bass. Doesn´t feel dynamic.
> ...


I just purchased a pair of HD6xx headphones, which I've been listening to for a couple of days only. I'm running them through a Burson Conductor Virtuoso 1. I'm quite amazed at the beauty of the sound they produce, quite competitive with what I hear from my other headphones which cost 5 or 10 times as much to purchase.
  The only negative is that my HiFiMan or Focal, or Audeze headphones produce an image with more space and especially depth than the Sennheisers. But the sound signature on the 6xx's is superb. And so very listenable!


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## KukoCL (Nov 30, 2018)

KukoCL said:


> I have a pair of HD6XX from some months ago, and when i connect them in all my sources they dissapoint me in different ways:
> 
> *- iPhone 6s plus:* sounds horribly muddy and very low volume.
> *- Galaxy S9+:* Sounds kinda good in details and treble, just boring without soundstage and bass. Doesn´t feel dynamic.
> ...



Just as an update, i got my MKii with CV4010 tubes, and iv' been using them the last 4 days.
I connected the output from my SoundBlaster Audigy RX from my PC in bit perfect mode in low gain to the MKii tube amp, and the amp to my HD650.

Now i know the integrated amp in my SoundBlaster has enough power to drive the HD650 well, because it sounds as good with the tube amp, but with a different sound signature.

With tubes, the sound feels more soft and pleasant to me, like the warmth adds more body to it. The harsh part of the treble when it was connected directly to my SoundBlaster now feels soft and enjoyable.
The only thing i do not love is i feel like the fine texture of the sound dissapeared. Now i can't hear any difference in Tidal between a regular 44khz/16bit song and a MQA song, which was notorious connected directly to the sound card.

¿Does anybody tried the HD650 with tubes and MQA?


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## Yh173088

I have a similar problem to u . I got a HD 600 recently but I only have a portable FiiO q1m2 which could not power them sufficiently . Then I heard my friend’s HD 600 on his Setup . I think u should get the amp first . That way u can use it with your current headphones while waiting for the new headphones . I say this coz I don’t think u will be completely satisfied with them without an amp and may have buyers remorse .


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## SeeHear

Big surprise (to me): The 650 sounds great driven by the LG V30! In fact, I like it better than via my WA2!


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## mushin1989

I recommend giving the Topping NX4 a go. It *should* be able to give you enough volume, though I don't suppose I'd try to drive planar magnetics on it. The bass boost is wonderful and it sounds great in general. There's also the Xduoo XD-05 for even more power (about $170 from China on Ebay). These portable dac/amp combos provide a huge amount of value assuming they provide the power you need. EDIT: I adittedly haven't tried the 600/650s on those, just the x58 Jubilees. I absolutely loved the Jubilees with the bass boost turned on with those two suggestions, however. Like, I loved it.


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## Hooster

They need an amp, and if you ask me they need a cable that is better than the stock cable.


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## blackdragon87

Hooster said:


> They need an amp, and if you ask me they need a cable that is better than the stock cable.



Correct on both parts


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## dgozalie

Hello

My friend just review this massdrop hd6xx.. check it out...

https://orronoco.blogspot.com/2019/09/sennheiser-hd-6xx-better-upgrade-over.html

Thanks


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## jasonb

I've enjoyed them out of the headphone jack of an LG V10, and I've enjoyed them out of a Hidizs Sonata HDII USB-C DAC dongle. If you want to crank them, they do sound better out of a Topping NX4DSD though.


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## Morgann

You can find similar amplifiers here.
https://www.allicdata.com/product/i...instrumentation-op-amps-buffer-amps/1926.html


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