# Feliks Audio Elise Impressions Thread – a New Start (please read first post for summary)



## pctazhp (Jun 21, 2017)

I’m trying this new Elise thread as an experiment to see if there are those interested in a basic Elise thread. Of course, I can’t dictate the rules for this or any thread and would not presume to try. But I am suggesting the following guidelines for those who might be interested in this type of thread:
 :


This is intended as a thread for those who are primarily interested in the 1-tube-per-socket (with or without single-tube adapters) approach to the Elise – for both current owners of the magnificent Feliks Audio Elise and those who are considering a purchase.
Discussion of different tube combinations we have tried or are considering is encouraged, but discussion of external power and multi-tube adapters is discouraged.
Discussion of compatible DACs, headphones or other related gear is encouraged.
Photos of our setups are highly encouraged, as are examples of music we enjoy with our Elises.
Helpful information for those who are thinking about buying an Elise is highly encouraged
A true sense of community, mutual respect and courtesy is the goal.
 
 I am not trying to start this thread in competition with the other currently active Elise thread. Rather it is for those who love the Elise or are interested in it, share a belief in the above-guidelines and want a nice, comfortable place to hang out.

 Hope there will be those interested in joining me )))

*Edit: * This is list of posts from @UntilThen describing different tubes he uses with Elise. I will update list as he posts more impressions. I will also try to include below the list other summary posts regarding tube rolling with Elise. I know it is not easy to go through entire thread seeking good information of Elise and tubes.

UT Summaries

*C3G/s and Tung Sol 5998:* http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7050#post_13300690

*Mullard ECC31 and Tung Sol 5998:* http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7080#post_13303582

*Fivre 6N7G brown base and Tung Sol 5998  *http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7110#post_13306395

*Philips Miniwatt EL3N and Tung 5998*http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7170#post_13310833

*Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Svetlana 6h13c  *http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7185#post_13311072

*Mazda 6N7G and Svetlana 6h13c*http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7200#post_13311846

*EL12N and EL12* http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7260#post_13314594

*Summary findings on EF80 and EF86 used as drivers in Elise.  *http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7605#post_13342627

Other Elise-Tubes Relevant Posts:

*THIS IS THE FIRST STEP TO BEGIN WITH TUBE ROLLING: Learn Specifications  *From @Frederick Rea: http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7215#post_13312198

*@HOWIE13 on EL12:* http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7275#post_13315267

*@angpsi report on Svetlana/Psvane (upgraded combo from FA) - Minority Report on EL11/12 Family.* http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/fel...ead-first-post-for-summary/7335#post_13320344

*UT on Power Tubes:*

Next I like to address is Tim's request for power tubes < $50.

First of all, at this price range, we are looking at farmers tubes. No schiit, I'm telling you. You get what you pay for. Decades of usage and users opinions have drawn a line in the sand. Believe me, shrewd sellers and buyers determine the price on ebay. The expensive tubes are expensive for a reason. People know they are good and their price will be set by consumer demands. Cheap tubes are cheap because they are less desirable.

Does that mean cheap tubes are not worth torturing your ears? Nah... believe me, our ears are very tolerable. Likewise audio enthusiasts are very practical. They are not going to deny their child a toy just because they need to buy expensive tubes.

At the cheap end of the market, the tubes sound coarse, unrefined but hey if you're going to listen to Johnny Lee Hooker, whose voice is harden from years of whisky and cigars, why do you need a refined sounding tube? Likewise if you're going to watch Youtube 90% of the time, why would you complain about farmers tubes?

Alright, now we have that sorted out, let's look at the tubes under $50.

RCA 6080 - great for Johnny Lee Hooker, Jimmy Hendrick, Tupac, 50cents and all metal bands. Can't go wrong here. Strong bass, sand paper roughness to give Johnny's voice more credence.

GE 6AS7GA - For $10 a tube, don't ask me to do a one page review. It will produce tube warm and is quite engaging if you don't care too much about hearing everything... because you won't hear everything.

RCA 6AS7G - these aren't cheap anymore. I'm actually quite intrigued by these again. I think there's some use for these. They are probably the warmest, baddest ass bass producers. They will probably turn your HD800 into a LCD2.2. Amazing right. So get a pair and thank me later.

Svetlana 6H13C - this is the standard power tubes that comes with Elise and Euforia. I actually think they are not bad at all. Of course they are no where near the premium tubes but for the price, the enjoyment factor is quite high. Feliks Audio chose them for a reason. So before you dash out and buy the above, know that these tubes can hold a candle to the others tiny flame.

There might be other farmers power tubes but I won't list more because I'm getting a headache.

Next I'll talk about the middle class workers... I mean middle class tubes. 

Middle class tubes

These are the workers who gets tax the most but who has a voice that the government need to take heed. They are middle class America and that's about 80% we're talking. They work hard, pay more taxes, own more head-fis, vote when they are supposed to work and fight in the Vietnam wars. In other words, they are fair dinkum.

That's what these tubes are. Good value, pretty to take home as your wife. Do everything you want and more. Without further ado, here they are:-

Chatham 6AS7G - airy, breezy, fresh as morning sunshine. How could you not love this pretty girl next door?

Mullard 6080 - sweet Caroline, they are more sharp and energetic compared to the 'rounder' GEC 6080 but in my opinion, more fatiguing in long term listening. Alright before I rubbish this tube further, let me say that I actually like the Mullard 6080 very much. All tubes in this class have some class. They are that good.

Chatham 6520 - similar to the Chatham 6AS7G.

Tung Sol 7236 - this is a very interesting tube. It is the leaner brother of the Tung Sol 5998. Now you're stepping into classier territory and more damaging to your wallet. So beware....


Aristocratic tubes aka Bill Gates tubes aka The Emperor's new clothes.

Rather than the same old boring tubes reviews, I'm presenting it in a new light. These tubes will make Thomas Edison proud. He wouldn't have dream that his light bulbs became sweet sounding valve - holy jupiters.

These tubes have an air about them. Literally. When you owned them, you have entry to Trumps's golf course resort. It's a free pass for sure. Membership is super expensive here. They are the bringer of joy as well as the bringer of doom. So beware..... Look, calculate, consider before you buy. However once you do, you will feel like the Emperor.... happy being naked and still sounding good.

Alright this review is getting out of hand and I think I have just forfeit my reviewer's paycheck.

Now for the truth and nothing but the truth. The truth shall set you free.

The tubes are :-

GEC 6as7g - Holy grail. Need I say more. When you have this, your only regret is you have only one pair. You are not going to worry that your bank manager has turn to whisky in the morning. You are not going to worry that the sun don't shine because the GEC 6as7g will shine brighter than the sun.

Bendix 6080wb - If I need a Chief of Staff for my tube kingdom, this would be it. He will be my Secretary of State, Vice- President and everything except remember that the GEC 6as7g is the President. Don't you forget that.

Tung Sol 5998 - this is the jack of all trades and master of nearly all. They call him the benchmark but he's more useful off the bench believe me.

GEC 6080 - ha a pretender to the throne, he almost succeeded but not quite. Might have the same GEC name but not really there compared to big brother GEC 6as7g. However at this level, you're comparing Lamborghini and Ferrari. For layman like me, I'll drive either one without complaining. Unfortunately I'm not a layman, so my vote is the GEC 6as7g.

There you go. Buy these tubes and live happily ever after.


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## UntilThen

My first contribution. Elise as preamp and using my Denon TT as source.


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## connieflyer

Just wanted to post a quick reply, I hope that this thread will continue to inspire those that have the Elise and those folks that are considering it.
 I have had mine for several months now and enjoy it, the music comes alive whether I use it with headphones ( Sennheiser 800) or as a preamp, to my Haman-Kardan 7200.  I have found the preamp out definetly makes a good bit of difference. Hopefully the neighbors will continue to work the day shift so I can unleash this at a decent volumne!


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## connieflyer

A little something to sing you to sleep, don't worry @UntilThen it is not me..


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## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> A little something to sing you to sleep, don't worry @UntilThen it is not me..


 
 Very good. My kind of music. Will check out Jesse.


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## UntilThen

An hour of Abbey Road with this.


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## hypnos1

Congrats @pctazhp ... a welcome addition indeed to Elise land.
 Will be showing my final setup in due course...for those who may not have been bored to death with it already, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 My best wishes to you and all who join in this thread...WELL DONE!
  
 Best
 CJ


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## UntilThen

Something lean and mean to kick start this.


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## connieflyer

Great guitarist, 5 a.m. this morning when I first heard this great stuff, but need more than one cup of coffee for this. Turned on news and saw the attack on Dallas Texas police, 5 dead officers,11 wounded,country is tearing itself apart think I better grab some high price y ubes will I can. Hate trying to type on this phone,should have waited changed my profile from 6 pack one socket to reflect values set down. Hope this thread takes off,thanks for starting this.


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## UntilThen

Get this. They are reasonably priced and 7236 are great sounding tubes.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-Cetron-NOS-Balance-6520-5998-421A-2399-6AS7G-Buy-it-Now-Little-Bear-P8/172264591861?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35389%26meid%3Db2e90faa615d46f8a12be4b404e37f2b%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D172262170880
  
 Now these 5998A are supposed to be similar sounding to the 7236. I'm really curious at the brand. Looks good.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/5998-5998A-NOS-Gold-Aero-Premium-Series-7236-6080-421A-little-bear-P8-3-Day/172262170880?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35389%26meid%3De92374a7db7944f6afac8aa5e24df2ff%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D172264591861


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## connieflyer

On the 5998's have not seen that tube brand before (not that that makes much difference) but curios if it would be that different (read better) than the new Tung Sol I have.  Cetron I am familiar with as a brand, don't remember if they are rebranded or not.  In your opinion how do the 7236 compare to the 5998"s?  Don't expect a detailed compare, just in general.  Thanks


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## RedBull

Definitely subscribe!


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## UntilThen

7236 has a leaner tone, tighter bass compared to 5998. As I said, the 5998A is not the same as 5998. It's supposed to be similar to 7236. I haven't tried 5998A though, so I can't be sure.


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## UntilThen

Hello Joker... I mean Redbull 
  
 Got your Elise yet?


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## connieflyer

Thanks for the reply, may give them a try.  Have to straighten out some bank accounts first.  Did the right thing and tried to put my sister on one of my accounts as a benificiary said I could not because it was a joint account, showed her death certificate, after an hour she did paper work and said she would hold it for a month, I asked about the present account status, bill pay and what not, she said it would remain the same. This morning, two days later got email from main bank addressed to my wife, (deceased) to let her know that the account had been frozen and bill pay cancelled.  Advice is never try to do the right thing with banks.  Glad I have more than one bank


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## RedBull

I just post at the other thread before I see this.
 No @UntilThen, 8 weeks and still counting, not sure yet when I am gonna get it.
 Like you said, people wait for Stratus for 12 months, what is 12 weeks?
  
 I think I am gonna hang around here more now as I am *single-tube-per-socket-kinda-guy*.


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## UntilThen

You'll get your Elise very soon. At most 10 weeks. 
  
 Yup single-tube-per-socket-kinda-guy is good.  Neat and nice. I mean Elise design is so beautiful. Why kill it. Have a look at this. Pure elegance with sound to match.


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## pctazhp

@UntilThen, @connieflyer; @hypnos1 and @RedBull. Thanks for joining in))  My desktop has descended into chaos (a regular occurence!!!) and I lack UT's photographic prowess, but I'll post a photo of my current setup soon. I'll be pretty busy the next few days. Also, CF, I was struck hard by the news from Dallas. It does seem like our country is tearing itself apart, and honestly right now my mood is pretty somber. But it is great to have you guys to keep in touch with.
  
 Also, CF, I empathize with you in dealing with the bank. They certainly do practice the golden rule. They have the gold and therefore they rule!!!
  
 I second UT's recommendation of the 7236. I have been running them with my pair of green label Sylvania 6SN7-GTB's (paid $45) for about 5 days now and have felt no need to roll something else in. In fact, I have been going back and listening to a lot of my old favorite recordings and have been thrilled with what I am hearing.
  
 Also I have not bought a new pair of tubes in over a month, and both my serenity and pocket book have benefited 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I am curious as to what I might achieve with a "better" pair of Sylvania 6SN7s, but the prices are pretty crazy on Ebay for something like the 6SN7Ws and I'm honestly not sure what I feel I am lacking now in terms of SQ that I would achieve by buying another pair of expensive tubes like I have spent for some of my power pairs.
  
 RedBull:  8 weeks sounds like an eternity!!! As others have said, the wait will definitely be worth it. Glad you will be joining our little club)))
  
 Anyway, another weekend is upon us. Best to you all )))


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## pctazhp

I don't want to make a practice of posting videos here I have already posted on the other thread. But the following video is one of my favorites and always lifts my mood. I have a couple more but I'll wait to post them. Then I'll try to find some new videos worthy of posting. But with my taste in pop music having been forged back in the 50s and 60s, something worth posting is not easy to find.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There is something about Collette that is absolutely mesmerizing to me, the drummer reminds me of Robin Williams and the two guitar players are real characters. The first song, "The Big Keeps You Rockin", was recorded by Fats Domino in the 50s and then seems to have been forgotten. Mainly, it's fun for me to see a younger generation dig back into history and perform these "oldies" with such appreciation of the past.


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## RedBull

untilthen said:


> You'll get your Elise very soon. At most 10 weeks.
> 
> Yup single-tube-per-socket-kinda-guy is good.  Neat and nice. I mean Elise design is so beautiful. Why kill it. Have a look at this. Pure elegance with sound to match.


 
  
 Oh so beautiful ....
 I don't want to rush Lukasz, I just want him to take his time and do proper testing and selection of components before shipment.
  
 Elise remind me of this kind of style

  
 Thanks @pctazhp for being a nice host for us to chill up.


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## pctazhp

redbull said:


> Oh so beautiful ....
> I don't want to rush Lukasz, I just want him to take his time and do proper testing and selection of components before shipment.
> 
> Elise remind me of this kind of style
> ...


 
 You are very welcome. Thanks so much for joining us ))) And I agree with your representation of Elise's style


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## UntilThen

Getting up at 5am and seeing a female form. I thought I am in a different thread. 
  
 Well it's Portugal vs France in the finals of Euro 2016 and Milos Raonic vs Andy Murray in Wimbledon 2016 finals.
  
 My pick - Portugal and Murray.


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## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> Thanks for the reply, may give them a try.  Have to straighten out some bank accounts first.  Did the right thing and tried to put my sister on one of my accounts as a benificiary said I could not because it was a joint account, showed her death certificate, after an hour she did paper work and said she would hold it for a month, I asked about the present account status, bill pay and what not, she said it would remain the same. This morning, two days later got email from main bank addressed to my wife, (deceased) to let her know that the account had been frozen and bill pay cancelled.  Advice is never try to do the right thing with banks.  Glad I have more than one bank


 

 I had so much headaches with auto-bill pay when my mom passed, even having the death certificate it was a PITA with utility companies and banks.


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## connieflyer

Sorry to derail thread already, have been using the El3N's and 5998's for awhile now and I must admit they are way up on my list of favorites.  Seems to cover all the bases.  Using it more as a preamp now than before and I really like the difference in clarity that this combo brings to the table, thanks @UntilThen you have a knack for finding some good combo's not that everyone else doesn't, but I think UT is on my wave length.  A little erratic but heading in the right direction.


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## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Sorry to derail thread already, have been using the El3N's and 5998's for awhile now and I must admit they are way up on my list of favorites.  Seems to cover all the bases.  Using it more as a preamp now than before and I really like the difference in clarity that this combo brings to the table, thanks @UntilThen you have a knack for finding some good combo's not that everyone else doesn't, but I think UT is on my wave length.  A little erratic but heading in the right direction.


 
 CF:  You're not derailing at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Both the EL3Ns and 5998s are well within the 1-tube-per-socket (with or without single tube adapters) guideline )))  I agree that they are a great combination, although I don't use the Elise as a preamp.
  
 And I also agree with you that @UntilThen is the master!!! Every time I look at the 7236s I bought from him I feel like genuflecting or something because they once played in his world-famous Elise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Hope you are doing well )))


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## connieflyer

Thank you sir, doing better, some days okay, some not, some banking, shopping, repairing you get the drill, life.  OKay I amy have to get a pair of those 7236's, starting to work on me.


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## UntilThen

Haha Benchmark - EL3N and 5998  EL3N is @hypnos1 handy work. They are good drivers that will not give you tinnitus with prolong listening.


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## connieflyer

It is good to hang out with all the pros here.  I feel comfortable being feeble minded, at least I think that is what I meant, although it could be something entirely different, but then again, there is no accounting for all the pebbles on the beach when we all know it should be sand, not glass, but it is still shiny in the sun, except when the moon comes out and the vampire bats hang out in the trees that seem to all ways be looking to get me!  Okay, got to go get some food, what is left of my mind is wandering. Oh yeah forgot to go to the store again, guess I better order a pizza, lucky me!


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## UntilThen

I agree with this assessment of the 7236 from Skylab.
  
post #194


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## connieflyer

Alright it came down to ordering a pizza or the tubes so I placed an order for a pair of rca http://www.ebay.com/itm/172262170880?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I found some cheddar cheese and some olives in the fridge, so I am happy with the purchase. Now I will have to change the furniture to better reflect the fancy tubes


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## UntilThen

It's almost gone those 5998A. Looking forward to your impressions of it.


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## nykobing

connieflyer said:


> Alright it came down to ordering a pizza or the tubes so I placed an order for a pair of rca http://www.ebay.com/itm/172262170880?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I found some cheddar cheese and some olives in the fridge, so I am happy with the purchase. Now I will have to change the furniture to better reflect the fancy tubes


 
  
 How are those RCA?


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## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Alright it came down to ordering a pizza or the tubes so I placed an order for a pair of rca http://www.ebay.com/itm/172262170880?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I found some cheddar cheese and some olives in the fridge, so I am happy with the purchase. Now I will have to change the furniture to better reflect the fancy tubes


 
 Did you order them with or without anchovies???


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## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> I agree with this assessment of the 7236 from Skylab.
> 
> post #194




I have ordered a pair of Sylvania 7236 a couple of weeks ago. They seem cheap at 20 bucks a piece. I wonder how these sound against the Tung Sol or Cetron? Unfortunately, I went out of the country so I will not know for few weeks...


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## RedBull

untilthen said:


> I agree with this assessment of the 7236 from Skylab.
> post #194


 
  
 Yikes, I don't like SS sound tubes.
  


untilthen said:


> It's almost gone those 5998A. Looking forward to your impressions of it.


 
  
 Those tubes are lovely, look at those classic letters, looks like .......... a tube.


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## RedBull

Btw, has anyone tried to use Pentode 6SJ7 into Elise?  any converters?
  
 I have some from my DV337, I'd like to hear them again.


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## UntilThen

Believe me this is one ss tube you will like.


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## RedBull

C'mon, don't tempt me!!


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## Tadamn

redbull said:


> C'mon, don't tempt me!!


 

 Why so serious, RedBull? I think UntilThen is right.


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## UntilThen

tadamn said:


> Why so serious, RedBull? I think UntilThen is right.


 

 Haha ty. Trying to convince RedBull to try 7236.


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## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> I have ordered a pair of Sylvania 7236 a couple of weeks ago. They seem cheap at 20 bucks a piece. I wonder how these sound against the Tung Sol or Cetron? Unfortunately, I went out of the country so I will not know for few weeks...


 

 Alright you can tell us if they are different from the TS and Cetron. I heard the Sylvania 7236 are different.


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## UntilThen

nykobing said:


> How are those RCA?


 
 They are not RCA. Brand is Gold Aero and he has just ordered them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 And they are sold out !!!


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## geetarman49

nykobing said:


> How are those RCA?


 
  
 you're just funnin' him, right?  those gold aeros are ge production.  oops, UT got in ahead of me ... but still ge production.


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## RedBull

It's a handsome looking tube.  Which is more powerful, 5998 or 7236?
 So many choices ................


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## UntilThen

5998 and 7236 about the same gain.


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## supersonic395

I'm finding the 
Elise and t1.2 handle pretty much all genres very nicely


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## connieflyer

I was a little concerned thaat the  Cetron, although they bought out RCA and the tooling, are from a newer production, concern was with the new epa and fed regulations if they are made the same way and with the same materials that the older RCA's would have been.  Plant I believe is in Chatsworth California, so I am sure the regulations where tighter than they would have been with the older manufacturers.


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## connieflyer

Tubes are shipped so should be here in a week or so,now the wait begins again, and I promised myself I was done buying tubes, to wear them all out I would have to live a lot longer than I have, might have to put them in a will or something.


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## pctazhp

supersonic395 said:


> I'm finding the
> Elise and t1.2 handle pretty much all genres very nicely


 
 I totally agree with you. And it seems to me that is what any high quality amp, tube or ss,  should achieve. I have no hesitation recommending the Elise to anyone looking for an end-game amp. My set-up has cured me of upgradeitis


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## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Tubes are shipped so should be here in a week or so,now the wait begins again, and I promised myself I was done buying tubes, to wear them all out I would have to live a lot longer than I have, might have to put them in a will or something.


 
 I haven't ordered new tubes in over a month. For now I'll live vicariously through you


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## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Believe me this is one ss tube you will like.


 
 UT: Ditto!!! Anyone who avoids the 7236 because they don't like solid state would, in my opinion, be making a mistake. They are very clear and detailed, but not sterile at all.


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## geetarman49

pctazhp said:


> UT: Ditto!!! Anyone who avoids the 7236 because they don't like solid state would, in my opinion, be making a mistake. They are very clear and detailed, but not sterile at all.


 

 how is low-freq control & impact?  rendition of 3d imaging and space between instruments?


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## geetarman49

i posted a link on the other site (post # 12557) to some music which (i would hope) might be of interest & enjoyment.


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## pctazhp

geetarman49 said:


> how is low-freq control & impact?  rendition of 3d imaging and space between instruments?


 
 With my Sylvania 6SNT-GTB as drivers, it is overall in the categories you list as good as I have experienced with the Elise. In a word, "excellent". However, I should note that the bass impact to me is not over exaggerated. It is probably not a bass head tube, but from bottom to top in the FR, it is well integrated and natural.
  
 Edit: Contrary opinions are welcome


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## UntilThen

supersonic395 said:


> I'm finding the
> Elise and t1.2 handle pretty much all genres very nicely


 

 Yeah? That's no surprise. Led Zeppelin is finally set free. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Now try Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture. I want to hear a T1 g2 one day.


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## UntilThen

@whirlwind 5998A does look like GE 6AS7GA but there's nowhere to know they are the same until you hear it. I think they are different. Here they are listed separately and 5998A is claim to be medium gain whereas the 6AS7GA is low gain. post #1
  
 This seller has been selling the 5998A for a while.
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5998A-Dual-Triode-Vacuum-Tube-NOS-General-Electric-J-A-N-6AS7-421A-5998-A-/121586619378


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## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> how is low-freq control & impact?  rendition of 3d imaging and space between instruments?


 

 Both 5998 and 7236 have good 3d rendition and instruments separation. Soundstage is great on both. 5998 is full bodied, an impactful bass that seems to extends lower. 7236 has a leaner tone, a harder hitting mid bass impact and generally a more surgical, clinical presentation than the 5998. They are quite distinctly different where you hear it. I do like both.


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## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I was a little concerned thaat the  Cetron, although they bought out RCA and the tooling, are from a newer production, concern was with the new epa and fed regulations if they are made the same way and with the same materials that the older RCA's would have been.  Plant I believe is in Chatsworth California, so I am sure the regulations where tighter than they would have been with the older manufacturers.


 

 Here's some history. I always thought of Cetron as having bought out some Tung Sol tube types, namely the 7236 but apparently they acquired some GE, RCA and Westinghouse too.
 http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/21/215937.html


----------



## supersonic395

untilthen said:


> Yeah? That's no surprise. Led Zeppelin is finally set free.    Now try Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture. I want to hear a T1 g2 one day.


 

The rover sounds so good


----------



## UntilThen

supersonic395 said:


> The rover sounds so good


 

 When you are tired of your stock tubes, try it with these tubes. These are for Led Zep 5. What's rover?


----------



## supersonic395

The Rover is a led zep tune on physical graffiti, check it out


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Both 5998 and 7236 have good 3d rendition and instruments separation. Soundstage is great on both. 5998 is full bodied, an impactful bass that seems to extends lower. 7236 has a leaner tone, a harder hitting mid bass impact and generally a more surgical, clinical presentation than the 5998. They are quite distinctly different where you hear it. I do like both.


 
 I agree with your comparison and I also like them both. However, I prefer the 7236 - probably because I'm running them with the HD800S. When I first got the S you correctly predicted the 7236s would probably be a better match.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Yeah? That's no surprise. Led Zeppelin is finally set free.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 WOW. There is actually something I have heard that you haven't. I am not worthy!! I am not worthy!!


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> @whirlwind 5998A does look like GE 6AS7GA but there's nowhere to know they are the same until you hear it. I think they are different. Here they are listed separately and 5998A is claim to be medium gain whereas the 6AS7GA is low gain. post #1
> 
> This seller has been selling the 5998A for a while.
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5998A-Dual-Triode-Vacuum-Tube-NOS-General-Electric-J-A-N-6AS7-421A-5998-A-/121586619378


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/393811/woo-wa2-tube-rolling-recommendations/90
  
 The GE5998A tubes may still sound good, especially if you like the GE 6AS7GA tubes....but please do not mistake them for the sound of the 5998 tubes with the domino plates


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/393811/woo-wa2-tube-rolling-recommendations/90
> 
> The GE5998A tubes may still sound good, especially if you like the GE 6AS7GA tubes....but please do not mistake them for the sound of the 5998 tubes with the domino plates


 

 I know the 5998A are not 5998 but I'm not sure if the 5998A are the 6AS7GA


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> I don't want to make a practice of posting videos here I have already posted on the other thread. But the following video is one of my favorites and always lifts my mood. I have a couple more but I'll wait to post them. Then I'll try to find some new videos worthy of posting. But with my taste in pop music having been forged back in the 50s and 60s, something worth posting is not easy to find.
> 
> There is something about Collette that is absolutely mesmerizing to me, the drummer reminds me of Robin Williams and the two guitar players are real characters. The first song, "The Big Keeps You Rockin", was recorded by Fats Domino in the 50s and then seems to have been forgotten. Mainly, it's fun for me to see a younger generation dig back into history and perform these "oldies" with such appreciation of the past.




She's delightful!


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/q3Wr1IoRaf0
[/VIDEO]


----------



## UntilThen

^^ Ha I actually love those videos above. Collette's smile is infectious.


----------



## connieflyer

Watching the crowd and thiking wow look at all the old coddgers!  Then I realized half of them were younger than me!  They sound pretty good, have the beat down real nice.  Here is another old jewel..


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to all these videos with ma tube amps.


----------



## connieflyer

ONe for each ear?


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> ONe for each ear?


 
 I have to try that !!!


----------



## UntilThen

I thought Rover is a dog. 
  
 This is good Led Zep song. We don't get these anymore.


----------



## UntilThen

@supersonic395 is this a good album? I am thinking of buying it. This tune is great. Looks like a family album.


----------



## RedBull

connieflyer said:


> ONe for each ear?




Hahaha, I wonder how the sound image would like.


----------



## UntilThen

redbull said:


> Hahaha, I wonder how the sound image would like.




It will be quite synchronize. DV on the left and Elise on the right.


----------



## connieflyer

For the "lucky" ones


----------



## UntilThen

I love Alison Krauss. Great voice.


----------



## connieflyer

If you like
 Alison KRAUSE .This is a track off their dvd In the tracking room. Thiswas recordeds live, the recording values and videos are great.
  
 all the music seems effortlwess singing6  ONe of the best recorded albums I have. This youotube is ok but limited sound tha album has such rich tones amazing.


----------



## RedBull

Great song CF!
  
 Listening using Samsung earbud from my laptop sounds great, makes me wonder why we have to spend mega bucks just to get 10% improvement  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Is she wearing Sony?


----------



## mordy

Finally snagged the 7236 tube at a good price. The tubes I got were made in Dec 1958 by Tung Sol and were bought by IBM for use in computers. Listening to them with the EL3N as drivers.
  
 This is a great sounding tube. First impression is a well defined bass, delicate and very clear presentation, a little laid back.
  
 IMHO when people say ss like, they just mean that it is very clear with well defined bass, not that it doesn't sound tubey.
  
 I use the Elise as a preamp together with a 110W ss integrated amp. The Elise is inserted in an equalizer loop (no equalizer involved). With a slider I can switch the Elise in and out instantly. As soon as I switch it out the music loses a lot of vividness and life. No way the 7236 is solid state like!
  
 Here are the new additions in action:
  




  
 Looks like IBM took these tubes seriously:
  




  
  
 One area where tubes sometimes lag behind solid state is in speed. Certain tubes, although beautiful sounding, may not be able to keep up with very rapid drumming as an example. The sound may be slurred a little.
  
 Badas showed me an informal speed test, where you can check how your tubes perform in this aspect. The 30 sec introduction to this recording has some very rapid drum beats. One of my favorite tube combinations cannot keep up with it, but these 7236 tubes acquit themselves nicely - the rapid beats starting at around 10 sec are clearly delineated and not slurred:

  
 Have fun!


----------



## UntilThen

Well done Mordy. Those 7236 looks exactly like the pair I sold to Pct with that IBM label at the bottom.

You got it right with the ss sound. 
Clean and defined and slightly tubey. Another plus it runs cooler than 6AS7.

So what is the good price?


----------



## UntilThen

Looks like I need to do a review of EL3N with 7236. 

Looks like a Cheetah and moves like a Gazelle and a pounding of a Gorilla.


----------



## DavidA

Did anyone notice that in the Alison Krauss video that @connieflyer posted she has the headphones on backwards?
  
 But I love the album


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Great song CF!
> 
> Listening using Samsung earbud from my laptop sounds great, makes me wonder why we have to spend mega bucks just to get 10% improvement
> 
> ...


 

 They look like MDR-V600 studio monitor


----------



## RedBull

davida said:


> Did anyone notice that in the Alison Krauss video that @connieflyer posted she has the headphones on backwards?


 
  
 Good observation, perhaps it just for show, no sound also.


----------



## connieflyer

Well, look at us,page 5 already,congrats folks.


----------



## RedBull

With the rate of us posting here, this is gonna be 100 in no time,


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> *Watching the crowd and thiking wow look at all the old coddgers!  Then I realized half of them were younger than me!  *They sound pretty good, have the beat down real nice.  Here is another old jewel..


 
 I noticed the same thing, CF. I should have added another item to the thread guidelines: "Old Geezers reminding each other of all the benefits of growing old is encouraged above all" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Glad you like the group and thanks for the additional videos.I really love Hank Williams' Jambalya. Lots of great versions on YouTube.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Looks like I need to do a review of EL3N with 7236.
> 
> Looks like a Cheetah and moves like a Gazelle and a pounding of a Gorilla.


 
 Because you are my leader and I just follow you blindly, you have broken my 6-day record of no tube rolling. This morning I popped in my EL3Ns to pair with your - I mean my -7236s. I don't know why, but just about everything seems to sound better and better with my Elise. With respect to the EL3Ns, maybe there really is something to the 400-hour break in period.


----------



## pctazhp

@mordy. I hope your IBM re-labeled 7236s sound as great as the pair I bought from @UntilThen.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> I noticed the same thing, CF. I should have added another item to the thread guidelines: "Old Geezers reminding each other of all the benefits of growing old is encouraged above all"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 What's the definition of "old geezer", 50+?


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> What's the definition of "old geezer", 50+?


 
 I think it depends on one's age. At my age I'd like to define it as 80+.
  
 The day I turned 30 was the most depressing day of my life. It was back in the time when the mantra was: "Don't trust anyone over 30"


----------



## UntilThen

Going to a beach house for 4 days tomorrow with the family. I'm going to pack my Elise, dac, headphone and a MacBook Pro. 
  
 A commerical came on the tv last night and this song was part of it. So I have to listen to it.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> I think it depends on one's age. At my age I'd like to define it as 80+.
> 
> The day I turned 30 was the most depressing day of my life. It was back in the time when the mantra was: "Don't trust anyone over 30"


 

 damn, I have 25 years to go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  I don't really remember much from my 30's since I had just gotten married 2 years earlier to the first wife


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Going to a beach house for 4 days tomorrow with the family. *I'm going to pack my Elise, dac, headphone and a MacBook Pro. *
> 
> A commerical came on the tv last night and this song was part of it. So I have to listen to it.




 Bold part is redundant. We assume Elise, etc is part of your family 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wish you a fabulous get-away.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT and pct,
  
 I am making some observations below about eBay that perhaps will aid people in buying.
  
 Sometimes eBay sleeps. If you want to sell something, don't let the item end Saturday night - people are busy with other things than looking at eBay. Another quiet time are the major holidays. The auction I won ended on the Fourth of July and there was only a single bidder - me.
  
 Another problem with the seller's post was that it was not advertised properly. Instead of saying 7236 Tung Sol tube it said 7236 type Tung Sol tube. In addition, although there were multiple pictures of the tubes, not one showed the top of the tube that had the 7236 number. I asked the seller if they were 7236 tubes because the pictures only showed Tung Sol 3213999, and he confirmed that they had the number 7236 on them.
  
 Bottom line: When looking for the 7236 tubes this listing ended up way down with other non-tube items with the same number.
  
 The tubes are probably used and were untested, but the seller had 100% positive feedback and had sold several lots before of the same tubes. These tubes are Tung Sol and not re-branded IBM, but they have an IBM sticker on them.
  
 Paid $59.95 including shipping, for 10.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Because you are my leader and I just follow you blindly, you have broken my 6-day record of no tube rolling. This morning I popped in my EL3Ns to pair with your - I mean my -7236s.* I don't know why, but just about everything seems to sound better and better with my Elise.* With respect to the EL3Ns, maybe there really is something to the 400-hour break in period.


 
  
 Aaahhh pct...this is something I've been pondering for a very long while now. I am convinced generally accepted "burn-in" times can be WAY off the mark, lol! Over many months of punishing my Elise, either my hearing has improved or something quite magical is going on - and as the former would make me some kind of unique freak, I can only really put it down to Elises's "maturity"...especially with the EL3Ns in the driver seat!
  
  Excluding my recent new tube DAC (which continues to surprise me in its raising of overall performance), there has been a definite progression in sound output - seemingly over and above that provided by upgraded drivers, with the GEC CV2523/A1834 powers remaining constant throughout. Given that DIY afficianados often regard even different _resistors_ sometimes benefit from LONG burn-in -  let alone all the other amp's components! - the question is : is it in fact the amp's ageing that is contributing most to improved performance, or the tubes'?!...
  
 But re. the EL3N, I myself have noticed the biggest change over time compared to any other drivers I have used. I'm also a firm believer in keeping the same tubes in for much longer than many folks do...I am convinced this aids in optimal sound development - assuming pristine pin/socket receptor condition, that is!!...or I could be barking completely up the wrong tree LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> The tubes are probably used and were untested, but the seller had 100% positive feedback and had sold several lots before of the same tubes. These tubes are Tung Sol and not re-branded IBM, but they have an IBM sticker on them.
> 
> Paid $59.95 including shipping, for 10.




That's am amazing deal, Mordy! Congrats!!

Now sell me a couple of them, please...


----------



## UntilThen

Yay my prediction came true. Portugal won.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT and pct,
> 
> The tubes are probably used and were untested, but the seller had 100% positive feedback and had sold several lots before of the same tubes. These tubes are Tung Sol and not re-branded IBM, but they have an IBM sticker on them.
> 
> Paid $59.95 including shipping, for 10.


 
 Mordy there were some Cetron 7236 for $30 each new but they are gone now. There's still new Tung Sol 7236 for $45 each. 
  
 Nevertheless you got a good deal. 
  
 These are the ones I sold to Pct. The left pair. The right pair are my brand new 5998.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> the question is : is it in fact the amp's ageing that is contributing most to improved performance, or the tubes'?!...


 
 H1, everything is aging in my setup including my ears. That is contributing to better SQ.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Bold part is redundant. We assume Elise, etc is part of your family
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ty ty. An hour before set off. Now to pack. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I shall post some pictures of Elise on the beach.


----------



## UntilThen

What the... seller is back with more 5998A. Now with both brown and black base.


----------



## supersonic395

untilthen said:


> @supersonic395
> is this a good album? I am thinking of buying it. This tune is great. Looks like a family album.




It has Achilles Last Stand which is one of the best led Zeppelin tunes and a magnificent, thunderous song in its own right, an excellent achievement. The whole album is good and certainly worth owning


----------



## UntilThen

Ok SS, it shall be my last stand too. 

Meanwhile the beachhouse setup is tested, working and ready to go.


----------



## connieflyer

Don't get sand in the Elise, probably not good for it! http://www.ebay.com/itm/172262170880   mine shoulc be here next week so we shall see what all the fuss is about.  Have a great holikday Matii


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I thought I'd finally make my first contribution to this thread - although I'm still more of a 2-3 tube per socket kinda guy... but the reasons I find them to be superior (as of yet anyway) I won't mention unless you'd like me to, save for any possible conflict.
  
 So here's a way to milk more 'sonic goodness' out of the Elise which can be done for free!
 If your media player has any custom audio settings, choose the highest bitrate setting of 192 KHZ / 32bits. Even if you're playing files that were mastered in the standard 44.1 / 16 format, I've found that upsampling to _at least_ 88 khz / 24 bit to improve the overall resolution. But now I've taken it one step further to 192 khz / 32 bit and though the difference I'm hearing is increased spaciousness, smoothness and an overall more lifelike sound. The difference is subtle, but if you're able to do A/B comparisons in a rapid succession playing a looped section of a track, you should be able to hear a good difference especially between the lowest (44.1 / 16) and the highest (192 / 32) settings. I had been set with 96 khz / 32 bit for the last few years but now with such a high caliber amp as the Elise I'm able to hear more of an improvement with this further "upsampling", which it's called when you essentially take a standard redbook audio file and add more bits.
  
 It may sound like pixie dust but I've always heard an improvement from this process, and upsampling is part of the process that top DAC's such as the Yggy use. One note however is that if your source is via PC, make sure that your audio player is using a sort of "direct tunnel" codec. This is the method I've been using ever since getting my first external DAC; I select the specific audio codec that was installed with my DAC to get a bit-perfect data stream directly from my PC to the DAC; thereby bypassing any Windows / Apple soundcard or audio processing rather than the computer also decoding it as as a middle man.
  
 If your audio player of choice does not have such audio config. options, I highly suggest swapping for another one. AIMP has been my trusty audio player for a long time, and supports any direct codec / audio format and file type. It also supports DSP plugins (or VST with a "bridge plugin") which allow you to use 3rd party effects such as compression, EQ, etc. Personally I use EQ 100% of the time as a perfect solution to counterbalance nuance imperfections of the HD 650 headphones.
  
 PS - Actually this is something that can be done to any amp, but with high caliber amps such as the Elise it can be more noticeable


----------



## UntilThen

I'm upsampling at 192 using Audirvana Plus on my Mac for bit-perfect processing using my NAD d1050.


----------



## UntilThen

All setup at beach house. Now to chill out.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT and pct,
> 
> Sometimes eBay sleeps.
> 
> Paid $59.95 including shipping, for 10.




Well I didn't see that it's $60 for 10. !!!

That is an incredible deal. Seller must be sleeping.


----------



## UntilThen

I brought these tubes on holiday. 



7236, 6520, EL3N and RCA6SN7gt


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> Well I didn't see that it's $60 for 10. !!!
> 
> That is an incredible deal. Seller must be sleeping.


 
@mordy
  
 If you run out of space in your closet, you can sell a pair to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Nevermind UT, he has a room of tubes!


----------



## hypnos1

Further to @DecentLevi's suggestion to upsample native recording bitrates, I have been getting excellent results from using the free program "Audacity" - which I originally intended to use for *amplifying* low-level recordings...great for when having to turn up the volume dial might bring unwanted extras, lol!
  
 Anyway, while there I noticed facility for altering the sampling rate at the same time...BRILLIANT!!  Therefore, so long as your media player can _handle_ high sample rates, no need to spend out on one that can actually _upsample_ itself...(not sure just how many can really do that - setting the figure to high rate doesn't automatically mean that is actually being _outputted_, AFAIK...). But it would certainly appear that upgrading just what is playing the media file brings overall improvements anyway!
  
 The only downside of using Audacity to _*"*__*Amplify"*_ is that each track must be handled separately...no batch facility for this particular function, alas. But the added bonus of upsampling is truly wonderful...and all for free LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And I agree with DL - so long as the rest of your gear is above average, there is definite improvement in sound...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Yo DL...this thread is for _one tube per socket _only preferences...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## DavidA

hypnos1 said:


> Further to @DecentLevi's suggestion to upsample native recording bitrates, I have been getting excellent results from using the free program "Audacity" - which I originally intended to use for *amplifying* low-level recordings...great for when having to turn up the volume dial might bring unwanted extras, lol!
> 
> Anyway, while there I noticed facility for altering the sampling rate at the same time...BRILLIANT!!  Therefore, so long as your media player can _handle_ high sample rates, no need to spend out on one that can actually _upsample_ itself...(not sure just how many can really do that - setting the figure to high rate doesn't automatically mean that is actually being _outputted_, AFAIK...). But it would certainly appear that upgrading just what is playing the media file brings overall improvements anyway!
> 
> ...


 

 You can also use Audacity to edit problem recordings like most current pop stuff (Adele, Beyoncé, etc) since the recordings are really over done.  I lower the output and then use some EQ to try and get back some of the dynamics that is lost.  Not a great way to do it but it can make some recording that are so bad listenable again.


----------



## mordy

When we were asked about the design of the Elise we asked that a protective circuit be built in. Does anybody remember the purpose of this circuit?
  
 As far as I know it was incorporated into the Elise.


----------



## JazzVinyl

davida said:


> You can also use Audacity to edit problem recordings like most current pop stuff (Adele, Beyoncé, etc) since the recordings are really over done.  I lower the output and then use some EQ to try and get back some of the dynamics that is lost.  Not a great way to do it but it can make some recording that are so bad listenable again.




An Apple iPod (actually the setting is in iTunes) that lets you raise or lower the volume of a song by percentage. It's saved in the metadata for all formats an iPod supports. 

A lot quicker and easier than using Audacity, but...only Apple devices honor the setting...


----------



## hypnos1

davida said:


> You can also use Audacity to edit problem recordings like most current pop stuff (Adele, Beyoncé, etc) since the recordings are really over done.  I lower the output and then use some EQ to try and get back some of the dynamics that is lost.  Not a great way to do it but it can make some recording that are so bad listenable again.


 
  
 Yes DavidA, a very versatile program indeed...much of modern so-called "music" needs all the help it can get, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...and all the more amazing that it's FREE!
  


mordy said:


> When we were asked about the design of the Elise we asked that a protective circuit be built in. Does anybody remember the purpose of this circuit?
> 
> As far as I know it was incorporated into the Elise.


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 The first was for DC-coupled amps when using Elise as pre-amp.
  
 Then Lukasz confirmed that there was protection against _most_ problems such as shorting...unless _extremely_ unlucky to have additional massive capacitor failure, for example...


----------



## JazzVinyl

iTunes...volume and assign an EQ setting, per song:

Right Click on song->Get Info->Options




You can even specify a start time and stop times (to skip crowd sounds, etc...)


.


----------



## UntilThen

Morning ! Beautiful sunrise. I found some tubes here for rolling.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm happy with Audirvana Plus and JRiver software player on Mac and PC. Exclusive hog mode, up sampling, volume protection, control, equalizer, DSP options till your heart's content. Both sounded very good to me. Spoilt for choices. You have to buy the licenses though but worth it.


----------



## UntilThen

An hour of listening to music first thing in the morning. I'm still amazed at how good Elise sounds with EL3N and 7236 with modded HD650. This simple setup I have here is pure music. I'm melting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 This is after 8 months of having Elise. Still craving for a listen every day. Life's good.


----------



## supersonic395

untilthen said:


> Ok SS, it shall be my last stand too.
> 
> Meanwhile the beachhouse setup is tested, working and ready to go.




Did you listen to Achilles Last Stand? How did you like it?


----------



## UntilThen

I just heard it on Youtube. It's great. Love it. Strange I've not heard it before.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh I have it on my flac files. I have the CD, Latter Days: Led Zeppelin Vol. 2. Achilles Last Stand is in it.


----------



## DecentLevi

BIG THANKS TO FELIKS AUDIO if you're reading this!
  
 I just got my replacement *Elite *





 *Elise* and I'm really impressed: I've really gotta hand it to F.A. they do a superb job on every little detail! Comparing the old to the new one directly (#44 to #64 here), seems they used a sleek, slightly less shiny finish on the chassis with a front place this pristinely matches the rest of the body, with a more robust / firm feel to the volume knob.
  
 And best of all for me, is that the defect which I previously had is nowhere in sight! Trying one of the exact same (more modest) tube compliments side by side, the randomly pulsating static sound in the left channel is gone. proving it was an internal fault. One last word on this (former) issue to bury the hatchet once & for all: The fault with my previous Elise was determined to lie somewhere between the front left tube socket and the headphone output, whereas the tube combo in question actually occupied the rear tube sockets, of which was more / less consistent regardless of which tube combo used, including stock compliment. And this was only a faint static that had since quieted down a bit, now audible only on sensitive headphones and during quiet sections of a song.
  
 Incidentally I had also just done an A/B comparison of a burned-in Elise with around 600 hours on it to the new one, and I was actually taken aback with the difference! And that is to confirm that it would seem that amp burn-in is more than just theory. Here are the differences I heard from this one-off test (both using the exact tubes): 
 The burned-in amp sounded more robust / weighty with better bass definition and larger / more lifelike soundstage while the new one seems to sound only similar in terms of  treble & tonality, but somewhat smaller stage and a muddier sound. 
  
 Looks like I'll need to burn-in this amp 24/7 these next 5 days until the meet.


----------



## DecentLevi

PS - @HOWIE13 still on the sidelines of joining this new thread? We don't bite (anymore, I hope)


----------



## mordy

It is past midnight and I am enthralled by the sound of the Elise with EL3N and 7236 tubes.
  
 Slow and Easy Blues by Jimmy Yancey:
  

  
 Another tune: Yancey's Bugle Call: (Almost time to get up again....)


----------



## DecentLevi

hypnos1 said:


> Further to @DecentLevi's suggestion to upsample native recording bitrates, I have been getting excellent results from using the free program "Audacity" - which I originally intended to use for *amplifying* low-level recordings...great for when having to turn up the volume dial might bring unwanted extras, lol!
> 
> Anyway, while there I noticed facility for altering the sampling rate at the same time...BRILLIANT!!  Therefore, so long as your media player can _handle_ high sample rates, no need to spend out on one that can actually _upsample_ itself...(not sure just how many can really do that - setting the figure to high rate doesn't automatically mean that is actually being _outputted_, AFAIK...). But it would certainly appear that upgrading just what is playing the media file brings overall improvements anyway!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Awesomeness, glad you're enjoying the upsampling effect. A note though, I also have Audacity and upon looking at it, you need to change two settings; not only the sample rate / sample format under the "quality" tab, but also select the driver that outputs directly to your DAC under the "devces" tab. Otherwise choosing "Microsoft sound mapper" or anything related to your internal soundcard system will still be pre-processed thru the PC as a middle-man.
  
 Otherwise the AIMP player is free. It's the one I use and supports any installed audio driver, upsampling with bit / sample rates, all popular audio codecs, and of course playlists, etc.
  
 On the topic of upsampling, I wonder who will be the first to try a SACD or DSD files with an Elise system.
  
 PS guys on my new Elise: It really still sounds great and I honestly wouldn't fault it at all as-is without burn in. It's just that having another burned in one caused me to realise the improvement it really brings about! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And tomorrow I will return the older Elise.


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> Awesomeness, glad you're enjoying the upsampling effect. A note though, I also have Audacity and upon looking at it, you need to change two settings; not only the sample rate / sample format under the "quality" tab, but also select the driver that outputs directly to your DAC under the "devces" tab. Otherwise choosing "Microsoft sound mapper" or anything related to your internal soundcard system will still be pre-processed thru the PC as a middle-man.
> 
> Otherwise the AIMP player is free. It's the one I use and supports any installed audio driver, upsampling with bit / sample rates, all popular audio codecs, and of course playlists, etc.
> 
> ...


 

 Looks like FA is really into customer service, they shipped you a new one before you even had to ship the old one back.  Looks like a great company to deal with.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm glad for you @DecentLevi .  Feliks Audio don't just sell you a tube amp. They want their customers to be happy and they are proud of their Elise. Lukasz once told me that they want their customers to enjoy what they have build and I believe every word he said to me. A very genuine man, who has always answered my email with promptness and care.
  
 Now those 'tubes' did sound VERY bright. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The big fat one in my picture.
  
@Lord Raven has been listening with DSD files. I heard it on his Geek DAC when he came to visit me. There is a noticeable spite in SQ. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@mordy I'm hearing what you are hearing with the EL3N and 7236. It's rocking my boat here literally.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> PS - @HOWIE13 still on the sidelines of joining this new thread? We don't bite (anymore, I hope)


 
  
 Have just come back from a few days away and am now lying in bed with sciatica!
  
 Will post again as soon as I can get myself to Elise. Hopefully won't be too long.


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13 I'm away a few days too but Elise is with me. Getting some sea breeze here now. Pretty sure it's adding to more air and breeziness to my music.


----------



## frederick-rea

I am using in my 53th Elise, stock powers and Psvane TII Series CV181 as drivers. Very good extended bass and 3D image. Waiting for ordered power tubes Chatham JAN-6AS7G tubes -copper rods-3 mica to have a new opinion


----------



## HOWIE13

Okay,
  
 Couldn't resist posting these pictures of some nice sounding tubes in lovely Elise. She sounds like soft velvet with the CV181/6A6 and ECC88 Mullard/6A6.
  
 The K-R 6A6 must be one the most beautiful looking tubes ever made. Most suitable to compliment Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

Very matching colour black and white. I have no idea those 6A6 will work as power tubes. That combo sounds ok?

I have often wanted to try those cv181.


----------



## UntilThen

Welcome Frederick. Glad to have feedback from more Elise owners.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Very matching colour black and white. I have no idea those 6A6 will work as power tubes. That combo sounds ok?
> 
> I have often wanted to try those cv181.


 
 6A6 are nice and quiet as power tubes too. Not quite as loud as 6AS7's so I had the vol on 11 instead of 10 o'clock for normal listening -  handy listening at low volume when can use a bit more of the vol pot.
  
 My two CV181's have slightly different sized bottles, but sound identical.
  
 Yes the K-R 6A6 sound nice as powers. As drivers they were clear and cool sounding with the dual 6J5+6BL7 combo as powers, as powers the 6A6's in the set ups pictured above are warm and smooth sounding, still very clear though.


----------



## UntilThen

Ha the left is taller than the right. Looks bigger too.

When I bought my brand new 5998, they were identical but gradually as I burn them in, before my eyes, one got shorter than the other. Horrors.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Ha the left is taller than the right. Looks bigger too.
> 
> When I bought my brand new 5998, they were identical but gradually as I burn them in, before my eyes, one got shorter than the other. Horrors.


 
 OMG, sounds like something out of Edgar Alan Poe.


----------



## pctazhp

Hello everyone) I've been pretty busy with some family things the last few days, but now have more time and chance to catch up. Seems the thread is going very nicely))
  
 @UntilThen. Your beach setting for Elise looks like heaven. Hope you are having a wonderful time. Seems like you, me and @mordy are of like mind regarding the EL3N/7236 combo. I'm sticking with that for now.
  
@hypnos1 I don't think you are barking up the wrong tree regarding the EL3N. Please keep on barking )))
  
 Hope everyone had a nice weekend )))


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> OMG, sounds like something out of Edgar Alan Poe.


 
 Are you referring to the 5998 or @UntilThen ???


----------



## pctazhp

Regarding up-sampling. I feel so stupid when it comes to any technical discussion of digital. I think my BiFrost Multibit up-samples and I think using the Schiit driver is the best for that DAC. Beyond that, I'll keep my dunce cap on and just listen


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys,
  
 I am back, nice to see a new thread and old members  @UntilThen Thanks for inviting me, I was busy in rolling headphones hehe
  
  
@DecentLevi I heard CD quality all my life on a Bur Brown DAC, this was my first DAC capable of DSD (64 and 128} playback, internals are hand picked and matched, Dual DAC Sabre ICs and Femto Clocks.
  
 The jump in SQ was phenomenal, I have more than 2000 DSD albums now, and I am never going back. I have also realised that, if the mastering is good, even CD or HDTracks recording can beat the DSD files. Overall, I will suggest people to upgrade their DAC SW to play DSD or get a DSD capable DAC, it is one hell of an experience. DSD64 is 64 times CD quality, and so on. I have noticed that DSD music is warmer sounding, relaxed, detailed and with darker back ground. The files are very large, one album is about 1-2 GB, you need a good media SW to play these files like JRiver, the laptop should be good to handle these big files to play them from memory. I have to tell you this, it all depends upon the DAC, if you have the chance to listen to couple of DACs then it is going to help you pick one. I picked the one with good internals and technical advancement going inside. Plus, add a decent linear power supply to get most out of your DAC.
  
 Will post my latest updates soon 
  
 Cheers
 LR


----------



## JazzVinyl

lord raven said:


> I have also realised that, if the mastering is good, even CD or HDTracks recording can beat the DSD files.




Hello LR, I am a tad confused by the statement quoted above.

Can you clarify, please?


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Regarding up-sampling. I feel so stupid when it comes to any technical discussion of digital. I think my BiFrost Multibit up-samples and I think using the Schiit driver is the best for that DAC. Beyond that, I'll keep my dunce cap on and just listen


 
 Me too. I only listen to CD's so what would I know about bits and sampling.


----------



## UntilThen

Welcome back LR. Thanks for sharing your DSD experience. Understood what you mean regarding good recording and mastering of albums. I bought about 30 audiophile CDs during the car audio days and they do sound much clearer, full of details. I have 'Closer to the Music' Vol 1,2,3 for example and it sounds really good. Rebecca Pidgeon, Patricia Barber and Sara K albums are very good too.
  
 However these days, I'm back to listening to what is available, be it 70s or 80s music on Youtube. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 or vinyl of which I have about 39 now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now I'm waiting to hear and see your new toys.


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp and @HOWIE13 just enjoy the music and don't be caught up with audiophilia. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Remember even my singing can sound good if played through Elise. 
  
 A well recorded CD, Redbook format, can sound very good too. Some of the software players like Audirvana Plus and JRiver does make the flac files ripped from CDs sound much better. You will hear a marked difference compared with vanilla iTunes.  
  
@pctazhp I'm really chilling out here. It's lovely watching sunrise and sunsets and good food. Tomorrow the low pressure systems shift towards the south eastern parts of Australia and it will be 5 degrees lower for us. Now that will be COLD in winter. I'm going to start up the indoor fire place, fire up my headgear, put up my feet and strapped on the headphone.


----------



## UntilThen

Night shot from my Samsung phone.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> It is past midnight and I am enthralled by the sound of the Elise with EL3N and 7236 tubes.
> 
> Slow and Easy Blues by Jimmy Yancey:
> 
> ...




  
 Glad you're enjoying the "one tube per socket" sound mordy...those 7236s sure do seem to be great value-for-money - hats off to @UntilThen for bringing them onto the scene! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(now your appetite's been whetted mon ami, you've just GOT to work your magic on ferreting out a nice pair of GEC/Osram/MWT CV2523/A1834s LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)....GOOD HUNTING!!!...
  


untilthen said:


> @HOWIE13 I'm away a few days too but Elise is with me. Getting some sea breeze here now. *Pretty sure it's adding to more air and breeziness to my music.*


 
  
 And there was I thinking it was your ageing _*ears*_ working the magic, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Sounds like you're having a great time at the beach, UT...good one!!...ENJOY!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





frederick-rea said:


> I am using in my 53th Elise, stock powers and Psvane TII Series CV181 as drivers. Very good extended bass and 3D image. Waiting for ordered power tubes Chatham JAN-6AS7G tubes -copper rods-3 mica to have a new opinion


 
  
 Welcome f-rea...I too liked those PsVanes - and very nice-looking tubes they are! I'm sure you will also like the Chathams...very well-respected powers indeed.
 Look forward to your eventual findings...with even more hours on your amp - how many so far?...
  


howie13 said:


> Okay,
> 
> Couldn't resist posting these pictures of some nice sounding tubes in lovely Elise. She sounds like soft velvet with the CV181/6A6 and ECC88 Mullard/6A6.
> 
> The K-R 6A6 must be one the most beautiful looking tubes ever made. Most suitable to compliment Elise.


 
  
 Looks beautiful, H13...
  
 Would love to know how those Chinese CV181s compare to the PsVane CV181 TIIs...or even more so the ECC31/ECC32/original CV181...


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am back, nice to see a new thread and old members  @UntilThen Thanks for inviting me, I was busy in rolling headphones hehe
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good to hear from you again LR...(not bankrupt yet after all those DSD albums lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 I agree that the DAC is a VERY important element in the system - your Geek Pulse sounds fantastic. Would love to hear one side-by-side with my Sabre-clad tube DAC (no DSD though)...but my wallet would undoubtedly wilt next to yours, alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Good to hear from you again LR...(not bankrupt yet after all those DSD albums lol?!!.




I know! I am glad my "purchasing 2000 albums" days are behind me. I am happy now, with 1 new album every couple months 





.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> I know! I am glad my "purchasing 2000 albums" days are behind me.* I am happy now, with 1 new album every couple months :*-)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So thought I, JV...until folks kept posting some VERY interesting music suggestions, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...thank the Gods I haven't (yet!!) followed in @Lord Raven's footsteps...thou shalt resist temptation; thou shalt.........??????
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




........


----------



## mordy

Guess where I got this Elise compatibility chart?
  
 Power tubes:
 Standard: 6AS7G (6N13S)
 Alternatives: 6080, 5998, 6N5P, 6N5S, ECC230, 7236, CV2523
  
 Driver tubes
 Standard: 6SN7
 Alternatives: 6N8S, CV181, ECC32, 5692, 6F8G
  
 Yes - you guessed it - from the Elise manual
  
 I underlined the 7236.
  
 OK H1 - what are the rebrands of the GEC A1834 to look for? Is there something called Haltron? Ultron? MOV?


----------



## UntilThen

A few weeks ago, I stopped chasing a pair of GEC 6as7g at US $150 and it sold at US $152. I know though that whoever I was bidding against would have gone much higher.

I'll leave it to Mordy to find us some cheap ones.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Guess where I got this Elise compatibility chart?
> 
> Power tubes:
> Standard: 6AS7G (6N13S)
> ...


 
  
 Knew you couldn't resist, m!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There's Genalex and yes, MOV...but these would probably be too obvious as GEC tubes.
  
 The only examples that I personally have seen go under the radar have both been labelled HALTRON...one of which I was extremely lucky to bag myself for $90. *BUT...*Haltron also label some Russian 6AS7Gs, so great care needs to be taken here. The main giveaway are the *2* "top hat" or "flying saucer" bottom getters in the Russians...the inverted "pan" type _bottom_ getter of the GEC family has an _uneven _raised section, and I've only ever seen just *ONE* of this type at the bottom.
  
 And so I fear it would take ALL your consummate skills at tube hunting to strike gold, alas!...but if anyone can...!!!!...GOOD HUNTING once more...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ps. Here's a link to encourage you a bit more in your efforts...if you haven't yet come across it, lol!  :http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.760;wap2
  
 pps. I like the reference to "plugging in the T1s"...


----------



## UntilThen

Morning it's a gorgeous day.


----------



## supersonic395

untilthen said:


> Morning it's a gorgeous day.




Listen to the led Zeppelin tune: 10 ribs and all /carrot pod


----------



## UntilThen

Alright I'll try that later. Sounds like a good breakfast.

Now it's Bon Jovi's time.

How's your Sony DAP with Elise and T1g2 going? Going through your ripped flac files?


----------



## supersonic395

untilthen said:


> Alright I'll try that later. Sounds like a good breakfast.
> 
> Now it's Bon Jovi's time.
> 
> How's your Sony DAP with Elise and T1g2 going? Going through your ripped flac files?




It's simply awesome. 

Really enjoying the music with no attention given to the equipment as it disappears behind the superb audio 

Truly excellent


----------



## UntilThen

That's what I like about Elise. You're on stock tubes but just simply loving this tube amp sound.

It's totally engaging and with the T1, all you get is pure euphony, with a wide Soundstage, musicians where you can place them and every note striking your ears with uncanny precision. Then the drums kick and you don't want this to stop.

Welcome to Elise world.


----------



## UntilThen

Swap in RCA 6SN7gt Smoke Glass VT231 and Chatham 6520. Elise simply sounds beautiful with any tubes.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> OK H1 - what are the rebrands of the GEC A1834 to look for? Is there something called Haltron? Ultron? MOV?




Typically GEC or MWT, or Osram or Marconi for the earlier ones. Any relabel brands are of course possible (Haltron seems prevalent). MOV was the manufacturing company, not a brand as such.


----------



## pctazhp

This is my all time favorite music video that I posted a while back on the other thread. 
  

  
 And this is a great follow-on. In the YouTube notes the poster said:  "There are moments when music transcends the darkness and shows us the light. This is one of those moments. Turn it up and share the joy with everyone you meet."  
  

  
 And I wish Brazil great success in their Olympics.


----------



## oshipao

pctazhp said:


> This is my all time favorite music video that I posted a while back on the other thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hey! One of my favorites too!

Btw. Getting there!

New Tung Sol 6AS7Gs and Ken Rad 6SN7s. Best sound I have gotten out if her yet.

My dads Benz Wood SL that I could borrow for a while is no slouch either. Happy times!


----------



## connieflyer

Well the new tubes just got here, sound good but to early to tell. Look nice!
  
Yes @UntilThen I pulled the EL3N's so that you could see back to the powers.  But these sound good as well,of course it is the Elise, so it was bound to sound good.


----------



## UntilThen

Very nice setup Oshipao. I've no doubt you're getting great sound from that combo with the Thorens and Benz cartridge as source.

CF those are very striking power tubes. If the 5998A sounds like the 7236, that combination with C3G provides a most detail and crystal clear sound. I like it a lot.

Well it's my last day here before heading home to Sydney. A sunset shot from yesterday to share.


----------



## connieflyer

Fabulous picture! I envy you, except you are heading home, but it looks like you have a nice place to relax.  As far as sound goes, bass "seems" a little stronger than the ts5998's i just pulled out, seem to have a little more gain but will take some time.  Safe trip home!


----------



## UntilThen

There's only one way for me to tell if the Gold Aero 5998A sounds like 7236.

If it's still available by the time I get home, I will buy it. 

If you're saying that the 5998A seems to have more gain than the 5998, then I doubt that it's the GE 6AS7GA equivalent.


----------



## UntilThen

One more blue skies photo to share. I had a great time here with the family.


----------



## oshipao

untilthen said:


> Very nice setup Oshipao. I've no doubt you're getting great sound from that combo with the Thorens and Benz cartridge as source.
> 
> CF those are very striking power tubes. If the 5998A sounds like the 7236, that combination with C3G provides a most detail and crystal clear sound. I like it a lot.
> 
> Well it's my last day here before heading home to Sydney. A sunset shot from yesterday to share.




That is stunning UT!

How far from Sidney are you?

I have 4 weeks til i'll get some vacazione in Italia. Would love to visit the continent in east one day.
You my fellow should get a second hand Thorens. There's so much bang for the buck!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm 2 hours north of Sydney.

4 weeks in Italy !!! I just watch the Godfather on tv last night. 

I can dream of a refurbished Thorens of which there are lots of nice ones on ebay but I'll be contend with my Denon DP300F.


----------



## UntilThen

CF I did have a great place to relax. This is my bed.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> One more blue skies photo to share. I had a great time here with the family.


 
 UT: Thanks for sharing your amazing pictures with us. Too bad you have to head home now, but am sure you have memories that will last a lifetime. What could be better?? And please don't write back and say an Elise


----------



## connieflyer

Looks like a great way to kick back and relax, and you did not even have to leave Elise!  So far am enjoying these tubes, with the C3G's has a nice look to it as well.


----------



## pctazhp

oshipao said:


> Hey! One of my favorites too!
> 
> Btw. Getting there!
> 
> ...


 
 Glad to find another Playing for Change fan. Very glad you're finding tubes you like. The Benz is "no slouch" ??? I guess we are trying to avoid excessive hype here, but that's taking it to the opposite extreme


----------



## aqsw

Hey guys, Nice to see this new thread as I was getting a little frustrated with the old one.
For the new guys, I am a single tube guy. EL3NS and stock powers.
 Absolutely love the sound, but I have a quality tube dac that upsamples to 24/192. Also plays to dsd64.

Hey UT, How ya doin?


----------



## UntilThen

AQ I'm good. It's been a long time since we hear from you.

You have an exotic tube DAC there. I can only imagine it sounds absolutely stunning with Elise.

Yes I'm of the view that less is more with Elise with regards to tubes. I just want to take care of this tube amp. She's a keeper.

I still love listening to Leonard Cohen.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> AQ I'm good. It's been a long time since we hear from you.
> 
> You have an exotic tube DAC there. I can only imagine it sounds absolutely stunning with Elise.
> 
> ...




Leonard and I commute every night for a couple songs anyways.
Funny, but my stock powertubes absolutely kill the 5998s I had.
The Mazdas(distortion) sucked as drivers.

My Elise (#28). is a single tube machine that I love. My DAC makes it that much better!


----------



## UntilThen

Mine is 22. Time flies. 64 has just been delivered.

If you're happy with EL3N and Svetlana 6H13C then you're a happy man. I can't think of a better value for money combination.

I do like EL3N. Very much indeed. It's the closest you will get to 2A3 sound on Elise. A big imposing sound. I'm running it with Chatham 6520 now. It's a combination I'm happy to leave on and just listen to music.

That said, there are a lot of drivers that I like too.

Did you have KT88 on your DAC?


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Mine is 22. Time flies. 64 has just been delivered.
> 
> If you're happy with EL3N and Svetlana 6H13C then you're a happy man. I can't think of a better value for money combination.
> 
> ...




Im running 6550s on my dac at this time. I am so happy, I dont think I can get much better than my dac and Elise!

My dac will take 88s but as of now I'm happy.


----------



## UntilThen

Post a picture of your DAC and Elise here. We love pictures. 

Did they give a name for the DAC? Like Rover. 

I'm surprised your DAC use 6550 and KT88. Those are monstrous tubes.

The 6550 are beam pentodes designed primarily for audio services. You're in good hands.


----------



## aqsw

Posted before in the othr thread


----------



## aqsw

The Dac is alot bigger han the Elise. The manufacturer only uses big tubes. He believes big is better.

And I agree!


----------



## aqsw

You must hear, to believe! Those Ether Cs are pretty good too!


----------



## UntilThen

Looks awesome. I want to hear your setup with the Ether-C one day I hope.


----------



## aqsw

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]The dac takes ll the way to kt120s. Just dont know if it will be worth it. 

The manufacturer is trying to get me to buy a rectifier upgrade. This is really a super upgrade that will take mercury. I really don't know how much better I can get fom where I am now.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Looks awesome. I want to hear your setup with the Ether-C one day I hope.




You know you are welcome anytime UT. Don't come in January or February Lol


----------



## UntilThen

I'll remember not to come when it's -30 degrees. Here at 10 degrees I find it's cold.


----------



## Lord Raven

Wish me luck guys, I am going to get my Sennheiser HD800 from customs, it is going to be a lot of fun. Tracking information does not say anything about it's current location but it spent 15 days in transit already, so I am guessing that it is here but customs wanted to listen to it first.
  
 Australian weather in Melbourne was so damn cold in the middle of summers LOL Today it is about 42 C on the way and about 38C in the neighbouring city with customs office. About 45C in my city.


----------



## aqsw

lord raven said:


> Wish me luck guys, I am going to get my Sennheiser HD800 from customs, it is going to be a lot of fun. Tracking information does not say anything about it's current location but it spent 15 days in transit already, so I am guessing that it is here but customs wanted to listen to it first.
> 
> Australian weather in Melbourne was so damn cold in the middle of summers LOL Today it is about 42 C on the way and about 38C in the neighbouring city with customs office. About 45C in my city.




I get -40 C in Jan and Feb. Want to trade?


----------



## aqsw

aqsw said:


> I get -40 C in Jan and Feb. Want to trade?





We do at times get to 40 in the summer.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi JV,
  
 I have found that it all depends upon the mastering, same albums in CD, HDTracks and DSD can sound different if it is remastered by different people.
  
 I do not always prefer DSD over HDTracks, sometimes HDTracks or even a good quality Audio CD is better sounding that a DSD (or SACD). This is not just me alone, some of my friends think on the same lines as well. So I stopped getting rid of the CD quality files where I have DSD of the same album. I keep both, if I get time I compare them, otherwise keep listening to the DSD files, the files are so big that I have to spend hours to compress them and play them in my car, this is a big drawback for me cause my main system is in my car. Focal Utopia 3 way active. I hope I answered your question.
  
 Quote:


jazzvinyl said:


> Hello LR, I am a tad confused by the statement quoted above.
> 
> Can you clarify, please?


 
  
 I am on the brink of quitting head-fi, you have no idea what is going on, maybe UT can fill you in for me. I bought 2 T1's first one was not as described, the other one never left the seller cause France did not allow shipping to my country in middle east. HD800, it is lost, no tracking information after it left Texas, I am going to customs.
  
 If I ever visit UK, I will bring my DAC and we do a jam  LOL
  


hypnos1 said:


> Good to hear from you again LR...(not bankrupt yet after all those DSD albums lol?!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

aqsw said:


> We do at times get to 40 in the summer.


 
  
 Don't tell me 40 C in summer and -40 C in winters, what location is that? OMG


----------



## UntilThen

Good luck with the hd800 LR. It is still a benchmark after all these years.


----------



## aqsw

lord raven said:


> Don't tell me 40 C in summer and -40 C in winters, what location is that? OMG




Its Winnipeg, Manitoba , Canada.

I rembember it being that - and + many times.

Just did a quick search 

-47.8
+42.2

Those have been the extremes lately.


----------



## UntilThen

Nature's colour


----------



## HOWIE13

These seem very good value for  6080 tubes?
  
 Does anyone know anything about them?
  
 I can't find anything sonically about them on the web. It seems Philips opened a factory in the USA in the '80's to manufacture for the Military.
  
 Any info would be much appreciated. Thanks.
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6080WC-JAN-PHILIPS-ECG-NOS-VALVE-TUBE/311446894575?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D


----------



## UntilThen

I've not tried those ones. I do have these singles. Clear sound but lacking warm. I didn't find them appealing to my ears.
  

  


 These Mullard 6080 does sound better. More weight to the tone, very clear high notes and a solid bass. Good soundstage too. For GBP30 each.
  


 There's only one way to find out about those Philips ECG 6080WC. Buy them and try it.


----------



## UntilThen

O m g ! I've been using my modded HD650 for 4 days and as soon as I got home and set up my head-fi, I put on my T1 and.....
  
 light bulbs start flashing, fairy dust start floating downwards. The T1 are so revealing !!! I hear everything !!! Yes everything. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Long story short... @oshipao get a T1.... now.
  
 This vv


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I've not tried those ones. I do have these singles. Clear sound but lacking warm. I didn't find them appealing to my ears.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Good thinking- at this price worth a listen. I did some further reading and it seems Philps bought Sylvania's factory in the '80's
  
 I have those Mullards-at least similar ones marked KB/QDD. Very clear and quiet tube. Would match with warm drivers I would think but have not had a chance to listen at length to them yet.
  
 I'll purchase the Philips and compare the two.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> O m g ! I've been using my modded HD650 for 4 days and as soon as I got home and set up my head-fi, I put on my T1 and.....
> 
> light bulbs start flashing, fairy dust start floating downwards. The T1 are so revealing !!! I hear everything !!! Yes everything.
> 
> ...


 
 I can see the mini-xlr on the one on the right, what type of connector is on the one on the left?  (or is that a gen2) And did you do the mods?


----------



## UntilThen

Oh those are not my T1s  That's a photo of the Gen 2 on the right. Not sure of the left. Picture off the internet. 
  
 Mine is still with the 7N OCC copper cable. Sounds good to me so I didn't touch it. Here is a photo.


----------



## UntilThen

That photo of the 2 T1s. One on the left is T1 G2. One on the right is T1 G1 modified with detachable cable. 
  
 You can see it in this review of the 2 versions.


----------



## connieflyer

As good as vacations are it can be relaxing to just get back home to the things that are familiar.  Welcome home!


----------



## DavidA

@UntilThen, I figured the one on the right is a modded T1, looks the same as mine after installing the mini-XLR jack.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> @UntilThen, I figured the one on the right is a modded T1, looks the same as mine after installing the mini-XLR jack.


 

 Yup can't fool you.   I've often wondered about the Gen2. I think it should sound good too with better bass. There's no mistaking the T1 sound signature. 
  
@supersonic395 loves his stock T1 G2.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> Yup can't fool you.   I've often wondered about the Gen2. I think it should sound good too with better bass. There's no mistaking the T1 sound signature.
> 
> @supersonic395 loves his stock T1 G2.


 
 I've considered getting a T1g2 since it looks like my T1g1 might not be returning from my son anytime soon but I think I would rather get the HD-800S first since I've heard them a few times and for some genres of music its a much better headphone than the original, much or musical sounding, but for classical the original is still tops to me.
  
 I haven't really been interested in the T1g2 since a friend who has both said he could live with either since they are much closer in sound signature than the HD-800/S are, which is why I'm more interested in the HD-800S at this time.
  
 This is what I've been spending a lot of time with recently:

  

 Its a Ypsilon driver in a GS style walnut cup, pretty impressive sound, great bass, HD-650 mids and T1/HD-700 highs.  It doesn't have the sound stage like the T1 or HD-800 but for jazz and pop its really good.


----------



## UntilThen

I agree the HD800/S are noticeably different. If you're a details freak, you should get the HD800. Certainly sounds clearer to me. The 'S' has a fuller midrange and more blossom bass. I've only heard them for a few hours at a meet but I did pay particular attention to these 2 headphones. I've heard both on a Woo Audio Wa2 and then heard the HD800S on Audio Gd Master Series 6.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> I agree the HD800/S are noticeably different. If you're a details freak, you should get the HD800. Certainly sounds clearer to me. The 'S' has a fuller midrange and more blossom bass. I've only heard them for a few hours at a meet but I did pay particular attention to these 2 headphones. I've heard both on a Woo Audio Wa2 and then heard the HD800S on Audio Gd Master Series 6.


 
 I already have the HD-800, its great if you like details but its not the most musical of headphones while the "S" is much warmer and actually sounds decent with pop and rock.  My SR-009 is just a step up from the both HD-800/S and its sound signature to me is in between the HD-800 and T1, great with well recorded/mastered classical, jazz and blues but not so great with current pop, rock, and R&B.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> Its a Ypsilon driver in a GS style walnut cup, pretty impressive sound, great bass, HD-650 mids and T1/HD-700 highs.  It doesn't have the sound stage like the T1 or HD-800 but for jazz and pop its really good.


 
 A modified Grado  Interesting. That should feel light on the head.
  
 Stax SR-009 is a really classy headphone. I heard it on Blue Hawaii electrostatic tube amp running EL34s. Couple of Jazz tracks and in particular the Pink Panther theme song. There was an uncanny precision and details. Sounds pristine and I did like it a lot. However as you pointed out, probably not the best for bass slam as present in abundance in pop, rock.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> I did some further reading and it seems Philps bought Sylvania's factory in the '80's




Yep, Philips bought the component division (ECG) of Sylvania from GTE and called it Philips ECG. At this point, they were certainly more interested in the semiconductor product lines but got the tubes as well.


----------



## pctazhp

I was reading a discussion on the 6AS7G thread about the dangers of damaging headphones by turning an OTL on with headphones plugged in. According to the discussion the period of turn-on and first few minutes of warm up is when power tubes are most likely to fail and potentially cause damage or destroy a headphone attached when the failure occurs. I'm curious if any of you turn your Elise on only when there is no headphone attached.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Yep, Philips bought the component division (ECG) of Sylvania from GTE and called it Philips ECG. At this point, they were certainly more interested in the semiconductor product lines but got the tubes as well.


 
 Whirlwind has kindly confirmed to me that these tubes look like Sylvania 6068's so that all fits I guess.
  
 Philips presumably had their eyes on the lucrative USA military market.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I was reading a discussion on the 6AS7G thread about the dangers of damaging headphones by turning an OTL on with headphones plugged in. According to the discussion the period of turn-on and first few minutes of warm up is when power tubes are most likely to fail and potentially cause damage or destroy a headphone attached when the failure occurs. I'm curious if any of you turn your Elise on only when there is no headphone attached.


 
 I have no hard and fast rule, just depends on circumstance but it's a great question because I destroyed my K701's on powering up a cheap Chinese amp. There was a loud cracking noise and the left driver was destroyed.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Whirlwind has confirmed to me that these tubes look like Sylvania 6068's so that all fits I guess.




Affirmative.




> Philips presumably had their eyes on the lucrative USA military market.




The military was likely still buying tubes and the semiconductors were used everywhere.

Also the free-market champion is not quite as free-market as they want you to believe.


----------



## geetarman49

howie13 said:


> These seem very good value for  6080 tubes?
> 
> Does anyone know anything about them?
> 
> ...


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Good thinking- at this price worth a listen. I did some further reading and it seems Philps bought Sylvania's factory in the '80's
> 
> I have those Mullards-at least similar ones marked KB/QDD. Very clear and quiet tube. Would match with warm drivers I would think but have not had a chance to listen at length to them yet.
> 
> ...


 

 consider picking up from here:   http://www.partsconnexion.com/6080.html
  
 or also here:  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-pc-1-pair-NOS-NIB-Philips-ECG-JAN-6080WC-Twin-Power-Triode-Vacuum-Tube-/371542665105?hash=item5681ab2791:g:1dkAAOSw5dNWqPl1


----------



## HOWIE13

geetarman49 said:


> consider picking up from here:   http://www.partsconnexion.com/6080.html


 
 Those are really cheap. Let's hope they sound better than their price would suggest.


----------



## geetarman49

howie13 said:


> Those are really cheap. Let's hope they sound better than their price would suggest.


 

 they purchased bulk mil stock --- from the quantities offered i would guess they easily have several thousand on hand.  as to how they sound, i suspect it's dependent on the 'chain'.  taken on their own, you could do worse for more $


----------



## HOWIE13

geetarman49 said:


> they purchased bulk mil stock --- from the quantities offered i would guess they easily have several thousand on hand.  as to how they sound, i suspect it's dependent on the 'chain'.  taken on their own, you could do worse for more $


 
 I had already ordered a couple from that Ebay seller, although he is a bit more expensive, and should have them in a few days to try.
 I'm using EL3N's as drivers at the moment so I'll try them with those first of all.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> I was reading a discussion on the 6AS7G thread about the dangers of damaging headphones by turning an OTL on with headphones plugged in. According to the discussion the period of turn-on and first few minutes of warm up is when power tubes are most likely to fail and potentially cause damage or destroy a headphone attached when the failure occurs. I'm curious if any of you turn your Elise on only when there is no headphone attached.


 
  
 Hi pct...must admit I'm taking Lukasz's word that Elise's protection circuits would _probably_ save my T1s - so I take the (hopefully!) small risk of keeping them plugged in all the time. But as the old saying goes : "you pays your money and takes your choice" LOL!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  


aqsw said:


> The Dac is alot bigger han the Elise. The manufacturer only uses big tubes. He believes big is better.
> 
> And I agree!


 
  
 Hi aqsw...nice to hear from you again...(I too believe you don't need these multiple tube set-ups to achieve fabulous sound, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 With the results I'm getting from my own tube DAC that 'only' uses - now, that is! - Tesla E88CCs (gold pins & grid posts), I can only imagine what your beauty delivers! The fact that it makes your Russian powers sound so good is certainly confirmation of its credentials...and also confirms that the 'lowly' 6N13S is in fact a much better tube than many would believe. Yet another case of what other elements in the system are providing!...(perhaps I should look into a "big tube" replacement for my stock ECC85s LOL!!..._if_ they'll fit, that is! - mind you, the sound I'm getting already from my Teslas is MORE than good, and so I can sympathise with your reluctance(?) to upgrade any further. Plus...can Elise _really_ be pushed to even higher limits?...I wonder...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 ...
 ps Glad you're still liking the EL3Ns - they do indeed appear to keep upping their game along with other system upgrades...more so than any other (driver) tube I've used, including the "Chrome Dome" 7N7; several VT231s; C3g'S'; ECC31 and FDD20. It really saddens me that not everyone has the same experience...but such is "tube land", alas!..(but it sure was nice to hear the fabled Glenn, of 'Glenn Amps', say he was "shocked" by their performance, and has chosen _these_ to use in his own amp project after many years. Given the vast array to choose from - especially with his extensive experience - this is endorsement indeed, lol!).
  


lord raven said:


> I am on the brink of quitting head-fi, you have no idea what is going on, maybe UT can fill you in for me. I bought 2 T1's first one was not as described, the other one never left the seller cause France did not allow shipping to my country in middle east. HD800, it is lost, no tracking information after it left Texas, I am going to customs.
> 
> If I ever visit UK, I will bring my DAC and we do a jam  LOL


 
  
 That sounds horrendous LR...there certainly wouldn't be much of my hair left if I were in _your_ shoes, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...I can only hope - as I'm sure does everyone else here - that you do eventually end up with either Senns or Beyers. Elise just _cries out_ for them!!..hang in there, mon ami...
  
 A jam sounds wonderful...but from the look of things, I doubt you would ever be _allowed_ out of the country - Customs have probably listed you as Public Enemy Number One, for some reason lol!!...but GOOD LUCK with 'em anyway!...
  
 ps. Am still trying to put together that comprehensive, infallible "recognition" factsheet for the GECs...not enough hours in the day at the moment I'm afraid, but will try as soon as I can!


----------



## geetarman49

hypnos1 said:


> ...
> That sounds horrendous LR...there certainly wouldn't be much of my hair left if I were in _your_ shoes, lol!
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 & i must be following in LR's footsteps ... i still haven't been able to get mine out of customs  (or as they prefer to be known now, canada border services agency) -- they don't answer phones (in either english or french) and they don't acknowledge receipt of requested docs sent via mail ... & in another 6 calendar days, they will dispose of item - bah! a pox on them, i say!


----------



## connieflyer

I purchassd a pair of CF Thomson 6080's from them, and teh price was about the same. They were made in France and they sound okay.  The RCA Golg Aero 5998A's I just got are much better.These were a cut above the CF's for sure.  I have not put the CF's in for about 2 months now, still new, doubt if I will use them anymore.  Have much better tubes to use up and not all that much time left to do it.


----------



## UntilThen

The 5998A are not similar to 6080 or 6as7g. It has an amplification of 5.5 whereas the others are 2.

I'm glad you like it.


----------



## HOWIE13

What I am wondering is what's the difference between 5998 and 5998A tubes. Some people say they are very different.


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> & i must be following in LR's footsteps ... i still haven't been able to get mine out of customs  (or as they prefer to be known now, canada border services agency) -- they don't answer phones (in either english or french) and they don't acknowledge receipt of requested docs sent via mail ... & in another 6 calendar days, they will dispose of item - bah! a pox on them, i say!


 
 And I thought our UK Customs were a pain in the *ss!!...the best of luck to you too, g49...
  


connieflyer said:


> I purchassd a pair of CF Thomson 6080's from them, and teh price was about the same. They were made in France and they sound okay.  The RCA Golg Aero 5998A's I just got are much better.These were a cut above the CF's for sure.  I have not put the CF's in for about 2 months now, still new, doubt if I will use them anymore.  Have much better tubes to use up *and not all that much time left to do it*.


 
  
 Hey cf...gonna have a word with ol' Father Time on your behalf - we all want to hear a lot more from you yet on Elise "magic", lol!!


----------



## UntilThen

CF can tell us what's the difference. He has both 5998 and 5998A


----------



## RedBull

Guys, still curious if we can use 6sj7 type of tube in Elise. 
Challenge for more adventurous Elisers


----------



## ostewart

Looking forward to hearing the Elise, I have the Espressivo and Feliks Audio are sending me the Elise to review


----------



## ostewart

.


----------



## ostewart

.


----------



## ostewart

Quad post...


----------



## HOWIE13

CANCELLED


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> Looking forward to hearing the Elise, I have the Espressivo and Feliks Audio are sending me the Elise to review


 
 Interested to know what you think about Espressivo as well.


----------



## ostewart

howie13 said:


> Interested to know what you think about Espressivo as well.


 
  
 Shame you weren’t at CanJam London last year, my Espressivo was there. It’s a fantasic amp for the price, limited tube rolling compared to Elise, but I do not think it can be beaten for the price. It has a smooth and powerful sound, with tube warmth but not over done to the point it sounds muddy or veiled. Details still shine through, I use Voskhod tubes with it which will only set you back around £15-20 a set and improve it overall (slightly more warmth than stock tubes)


----------



## connieflyer

Well were do I begin, the biggest difference between the 5998  and 5998A of course is the "A"!  Have not gotten the 5998 or  5998A's burned in yet, but close, initial reaction was to turn down the volume on the 5998A, as they seem to have more gain. They also seem to have a little more strength in the mid range, a little bit smoother.  The TS5998's are also new old stock and more than twice as expensive.  They are very clear and precise,  They seem to be a little more analytic , not a great word but close to what I am hearing. Need more time on the 5998A,s but what I am hearing is very positive.  Have to roll in some more drivers and see the results. Little busy right now building a monument to my dear wife.  Okay, it is only a pile of laundry , but hey, my sense of humor is kind of lacking right now.  I will give some more time and tube rolling to be a little more consist ant , but right now I am enjoying the  5998A,s slightly more than the 5998".  Also quit the other Elise thread kind of slow and not in my interest anymore.  Glad this thread is doing well, hat's off to the folks that make it so.


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> Shame you weren’t at CanJam London last year, my Espressivo was there. It’s a fantasic amp for the price, limited tube rolling compared to Elise, but I do not think it can be beaten for the price. It has a smooth and powerful sound, with tube warmth but not over done to the point it sounds muddy or veiled. Details still shine through, I use Voskhod tubes with it which will only set you back around £15-20 a set and improve it overall (slightly more warmth than stock tubes)


 
 My impression is similar.
 I'm hoping to get to the London CanJam this year, as long as my sciatica clears up.


----------



## pctazhp

ostewart said:


> Shame you weren’t at CanJam London last year, my Espressivo was there. It’s a fantasic amp for the price, limited tube rolling compared to Elise, but I do not think it can be beaten for the price. It has a smooth and powerful sound, with tube warmth but not over done to the point it sounds muddy or veiled. Details still shine through, I use Voskhod tubes with it which will only set you back around £15-20 a set and improve it overall (slightly more warmth than stock tubes)


 
 Thanks for your information on the Espressivo. I think most of us here blew right past it and bought the Elise. I look forward to your review of the Elise and how you think it compares to the Espressivo.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Well were do I begin, the biggest difference between the 5998  and 5998A of course is the "A"!  Have not gotten the 5998 or  5998A's burned in yet, but close, initial reaction was to turn down the volume on the 5998A, as they seem to have more gain. They also seem to have a little more strength in the mid range, a little bit smoother.  The TS5998's are also new old stock and more than twice as expensive.  They are very clear and precise,  They seem to be a little more analytic , not a great word but close to what I am hearing. Need more time on the 5998A,s but what I am hearing is very positive.  Have to roll in some more drivers and see the results. *Little busy right now building a monument to my dear wife.  Okay, it is only a pile of laundry , but hey, my sense of humor is kind of lacking right now.*  I will give some more time and tube rolling to be a little more consist ant , but right now I am enjoying the  5998A,s slightly more than the 5998".  Also quit the other Elise thread kind of slow and not in my interest anymore.  Glad this thread is doing well, hat's off to the folks that make it so.


 
  
 CF:  Glad to see your sense of humor still shinning through at a time like this in your life. I think your pile of laundry is probably a very appropriate "monument" as it can remind you of all the many benefits and contributions your late wife brought to your life. 
  
 With another reminder last night from France of the chaotic world we live in, it is probably a little difficult for most of us to hold on to our sense of humor right now. But a sense of humor can serve to reinforce the "good" in all of our lives.
  
 Just want you to know I love it whenever I see one of your posts here.


----------



## pctazhp

I've never seen any discussion here or at the other thread about the upgraded driver option FA offers for the Elise. As I recall it was initially shown on their site as a Melz tube, but now the "upgraded" tubes are not specified. If anyone knows it would be interesting to learn what drivers FA considers to be an upgrade.


----------



## hypnos1

ostewart said:


> Looking forward to hearing the Elise, I have the Espressivo and Feliks Audio are sending me the Elise to review


 
  
 And looking forward to hearing your impressions, ostewart...is that to simply "review", or to review and KEEP lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(doubt you'd want to return it anyway!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Now the wait...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Do you already have some upgraded tubes to try once burned in ?


----------



## ostewart

hypnos1 said:


> And looking forward to hearing your impressions, ostewart...is that to simply "review", or to review and KEEP lol?!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have to pay if I want to keep it, like with the Espressivo (which I did buy as it was awesome)
  
 No other tubes to try it with, as no point investing in tubes I can't use.
  
 Might have to sell the Espressivo to fund the Elise


----------



## hypnos1

ostewart said:


> I have to pay if I want to keep it, like with the Espressivo (which I did buy as it was awesome)
> 
> No other tubes to try it with, as no point investing in tubes I can't use.
> 
> Might have to sell the Espressivo to fund the Elise


 
  
 Wow, ostewart...on appro?...cool...a no-brainer then!...
  
 Well, when you hear what she (her sleek beauty forces me to use female terms, lol!) delivers with stock tubes, I'm sure you will be very happy at that...plenty of time thereafter to be tempted perhaps with more tubes? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 As for funding...BEG, STEAL OR BORROW - you won't regret it!!...Whatever, good luck with the venture.
  
 ps. If you found the Espressivo "awesome", I look forward to the words you find for Elise...


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Remember reading about the Melz tubes that there were many problems in getting consistent quality - a lot of the tubes had to be rejected, and this is probably the reason why they don't offer them now.
  
 Don't remember anybody gushing over them in comparison with the other over achievers we found on the thread.....
  
 Since Feliks Audio is offering amps for review now, it seems to me that they are ready to ramp up the production - just a guess though.....


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Remember reading about the Melz tubes that there were many problems in getting consistent quality - a lot of the tubes had to be rejected, and this is probably the reason why they don't offer them now.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Mordy. I wish FA all the financial success possible, in part because I love their Elise.
  
 But also because I have very fond memories of the month I spent in Poland in 1971 when it was still part of the Warsaw Pact. I had just gotten out of the Marine Corps and with the money I had saved up I picked up a Mercedes 250C at the Stuttgart factory for $6,000, and spent the next several months touring Europe.
  
 To get to Poland I had to enter East Berlin and drive non-stop on the East German autobahn to the Polish border. I got there late in the afternoon and it took me 2 or 3 hours to get through the border. They were mainly interested in forcing me to convert my US dollars at the official highway-robbery rate of exchange. 
  
 From there to Warsaw I was on a narrow two-lane highway, and going was very slow because many farmers were returning home for the night with their horse-drawn carts. I finally gave up and stopped at a truck stop to sleep in my car for the night. When I woke up the sun was up, all the trucks were gone, and I was surrounded by a fairly large group of school children peering into my car with signs of amazement on their faces. Their school bus had stopped and this was probably the first Mercedes they had ever seen.
  
 When I finally arrived in Warsaw I had to go to the state controlled visitor bureau to find a campsite where I could pitch my tent. I got a chuckle out of the fact that in back of the service desk there was a huge American Express banner!!!
  
 While standing in line I met a professor from Australia whose parents had immigrated to Australia from Poland, and who spoke perfect Polish. We struck up a great friendship and I stayed in Poland much longer than I had intended.
  
 Sorry to digress into ancient history, but I like the fact that my Elise came from Poland


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Remember reading about the Melz tubes that there were many problems in getting consistent quality - a lot of the tubes had to be rejected, and this is probably the reason why they don't offer them now.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo mordy...can't remember anyone else trying the Melz, but I must admit my initial impression of them was that they seemed very promising indeed, if somewhat uber powerful/enthusiastic!! If the early lack in delicacy had altered somewhat, they could well have been keepers lol. But with three examples developing horrendous distortion, I decided to leave well alone!!
  
 Interesting slant on the review front...will be interesting to see what develops...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## connieflyer

pct I did get the laundry done even picked up a dozen doughnuts took them to my bank as they have great coffee their.  I think. in this fast moving era we live in now with a 24 hour news cycle people tend to overlook the really important things in life until it is too late and I feel it is even more timely now to be able to lighten up now and then . I look around at all we have acquired in our life together and would trade it all just for a chance to say goodbye, yes even the Elise. sorry to interrupt this dynamic thread but people, listen for a moment to the voice of experience, tomorrow is never guarranted, live your life,for today and don't worry about tomorrow.  On a more serious note, these gold airs are really sounding. great . Have to try other drivers


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> Looking forward to hearing the Elise, I have the Espressivo and Feliks Audio are sending me the Elise to review


 
 Gday Stewart. Are you a professional reviewer?


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Sorry to digress into ancient history, but I like the fact that my Elise came from Poland


 
 I like this interesting story. When I get time, I'll share how Elise made it to Australia.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> pct I did get the laundry done even picked up a dozen doughnuts took them to my bank as they have great coffee their.  I think. in this fast moving era we live in now with a 24 hour news cycle people tend to overlook the really important things in life until it is too late and I feel it is even more timely now to be able to lighten up now and then . I look around at all we have acquired in our life together and would trade it all just for a chance to say goodbye, yes even the Elise. sorry to interrupt this dynamic thread but people, listen for a moment to the voice of experience, tomorrow is never guarranted, live your life,for today and don't worry about tomorrow.  On a more serious note, these gold airs are really sounding. great . Have to try other drivers


 

 CF, you're right. We get caught up with so many things in life, like the 24 hours news flash, carnage around the world, we kind of forget there are still beautiful things in life. Like @Lord Raven telling me what happened to his two T1 and HD800. 
  
 That's the reason when my daughter say let's go to the beach house on a family holiday, I say 'Sure but I'm bringing Elise!' Btw I didn't tell my wife that this tube amp is call Elise, so I've some explanations to do. Guess what? I can't find the name Elise on the amp !!!
  
 I can't find the Gold Aero anymore!!!


----------



## mordy

Did a little digging to find out what a 5998A tube is.
  
 According to a Tung Sol spec sheet, it is a 5998 in a different envelope and base. And some say that a 7236 is a computer grade 5998A. The specs are very similar for all three.
  
 However, based on my personal experience, a tube like the 6AS7 does not sound the same as a 6080, which is supposed to be the same. And a 6N7G does not sound the same as a 6N7GT which is said to be the same tube in a different envelope.
  
 So what does this lead us to? I don't know - you just have to judge each tube on it's own merits....


----------



## UntilThen

You're right Mordy. That's why I wanted to listen to 5998A for myself. I've 5998, 7236, 6AS7G, 6AS7GA, 6080 so I've to complete the circle. 
  
 Now who bought all the Gold Aero 5998A?


----------



## UntilThen

A brand new pair of TS 5998 cost US$398. I bought mine at US$239 from the US military stock in Vietnam and mine's dated 1966. I'm putting it in storage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-TUNG-SOL-TYPE-5998-VACUUM-TUBE-NOS-1967-DATED-421A-/381694481565?hash=item58dec3949d:gJ8AAOSwSzdXCm1A
  
 My mint condition 5998.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Guess what? I can't find the name Elise on the amp !!!




Below the headphone socket.


----------



## UntilThen

I have this jewel sitting here and didn't know it. My noise cancelling headphone which can be turned off. Sounds better turned off and use with Elise. PSB M4U2. 32 ohms and 102db. Volume at 10.5 am and it's loud. 
  
 Very clear open midrange and high notes and a punchy bass. In the words of What HiFi, it will devour high tempo tracks with enthusiasm. 
  
 I'll listen with this for today.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Below the headphone socket.


 

 It is there indeed but so obscure, can hardly see it !!!
  
 Can't see where your volume is at? Remember my Asus sticker?


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Remember my Asus sticker?




Still hideous.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Did a little digging to find out what a 5998A tube is.
> 
> According to a Tung Sol spec sheet, it is a 5998 in a different envelope and base. And some say that a 7236 is a computer grade 5998A. The specs are very similar for all three.
> 
> ...


 
 Too true!


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> A brand new pair of TS 5998 cost US$398. I bought mine at US$239 from the US military stock in Vietnam and mine's dated 1966. I'm putting it in storage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It's quite depressing to see the prices of these single tubes like 5998. 
  
 This is the main reason I use the dual power tubes with adapters approach- it's a lot less expensive and still gives excellent sound, for me anyway.


----------



## geetarman49

hypnos1 said:


> And I thought our UK Customs were a pain in the *ss!!...the best of luck to you too, g49...


 
  
 thnx ... i'm sure i think it'll get here ... someday.


----------



## HOWIE13

geetarman49 said:


> thnx ... i'm sure i think it'll get here ... someday.


 
 Let's hope this is not a sign of things to come in post- Brexit Britain.


----------



## RedBull

Guys, the Eagle has landed yesterday!!  Hurahh!!


----------



## oshipao

untilthen said:


> O m g ! I've been using my modded HD650 for 4 days and as soon as I got home and set up my head-fi, I put on my T1 and.....
> 
> light bulbs start flashing, fairy dust start floating downwards. The T1 are so revealing !!! I hear everything !!! Yes everything.
> 
> ...




Consider me sold UT 

Just need to save some hard earned dineros first!


----------



## pctazhp

redbull said:


> Guys, the Eagle has landed yesterday!!  Hurahh!!


 
 Time to celebrate. Time to LISTEN


----------



## oshipao

pctazhp said:


> Glad to find another Playing for Change fan. Very glad you're finding tubes you like. The Benz is "no slouch" ??? I guess we are trying to avoid excessive hype here, but that's taking it to the opposite extreme




Sorry, it was not meant as a understatement  But I feel my phono pre might not have the best step up transformer built in. So I think I will go with MM for now, but it sounds marvelous despite the slight hum I am getting.

Have a nice weekend


----------



## RedBull

pctazhp said:


> Time to celebrate. Time to LISTEN


 
  
 Yup yup.  Finally arrived at Eliseland.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> It's quite depressing to see the prices of these single tubes like 5998.
> 
> This is the main reason I use the dual power tubes with adapters approach- it's a lot less expensive and still gives excellent sound, for me anyway.


 
 Personally, I don't think the 5998s are worth the price. For the past several days I've been listening to EL3N/7236 (modestly priced combo). I can't find words to describe how much I LOVE this combination that I haven't used before or that won't seem like gross over-exaggeration, but beyond the moon and stars comes to mind.


----------



## pctazhp

oshipao said:


> Sorry, it was not meant as a understatement
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I totally understand. Nothing wrong with a good MM but sorry you are getting the hum. MC can produce amazing sound quality, but it also can do serious damage to one's pocketbook. My vinyl days are long passed, but I get to live vicariously through guys like you. Also wish you a great weekend and happy listening.


----------



## pctazhp

This is going to sound like unabashed nationalism (which it is) but my Elise took exactly two days to clear US customs


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Personally, I don't think the 5998s are worth the price. For the past several days I've been listening to EL3N/7236 (modestly priced combo). I can't find words to describe how much I LOVE this combination that I haven't used before or that won't seem like gross over-exaggeration, but beyond the moon and stars comes to mind.


 
 You have made me feel better already.
 I've ordered some 7236's anyway and I agree with you the EL3N's are really sublime and I like the gutsy sound of C3G's too.
 Elise always rises to the occasion!


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> This is going to sound like unabashed nationalism (which it is) but my Elise took exactly two days to clear US customs




And mine never saw any customs. :evil:


----------



## connieflyer

In defense of the 5998A, they are very good, compared to my tung sol 5998's whcih cost over twice as much, law of diminishing returns applies! Paid $240 for teh pair of new 5998's and they are not substantially better than the 5998a or 6as7,s I have.  Unlike UT I am just goiing to use them up, unless some one wants them enough to cover original cost.  For now using the 5998a with UT's 6n7g's and sounding stunning. YMMV!


----------



## RedBull

howie13 said:


> You have made me feel better already.
> I've ordered some 7236's anyway and I agree with you the EL3N's are really sublime and I like the gutsy sound of C3G's too.
> Elise always rises to the occasion!


 
  
 Where did you order the 7236 and how much?
 Now I am officially "*The lucky ones*" and boy, you are all CORRECT!!


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> In defense of the 5998A, they are very good, compared to my tung sol 5998's whcih cost over twice as much, law of diminishing returns applies! Paid $240 for teh pair of new 5998's and they are not substantially better than the 5998a or 6as7,s I have.  Unlike UT I am just goiing to use them up, unless some one wants them enough to cover original cost.  For now using the 5998a with UT's 6n7g's and sounding stunning. YMMV!


 
 ​I have a pair of Chatham 5998s and they are almost as good as the TS-5998s for about 1/4 the price, haven't tried any 5998A's yet, all being used in my BH Crack one at a time, so I rotate them to even out the usage.  This is one of the reasons the Elise became something I was interested in.
  
 I'm at the point I want to order the Elise but got offered a deal for 2 bottles of 2010 Chateau Haut-Brion for $1000 (less than half price, one of the few 100 rated 2010's) so going with that first.  And I still have to hold them for 4-6 years, lol, talk about delayed gratification.


----------



## JazzVinyl

redbull said:


> Where did you order the 7236 and how much?
> Now I am officially "*The lucky ones*" and boy, you are all CORRECT!!




Congrats, RedBull!!


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> You have made me feel better already.
> I've ordered some 7236's anyway and I agree with you the EL3N's are really sublime and I like the gutsy sound of C3G's too.
> Elise always rises to the occasion!


 
 I'll be anxious to hear what you think of the 7236s.
  
 I want to say a little more about my experience with the 5998. For me, they sound good but not special like the 7236s do for me. My 5998s just gather dust in my drawer. When I bought the Elise my goal was to develop an "end game" system. With the EL3N/7236 combo I have achieved that for the foreseeable future.
  
 It took me a while to appreciate the full potential of the EL3Ns. I suspect that was because they needed a lot of time to burn-in. I like the C3Gs, but not as much as the EL3Ns - or even as much as my Sylvania 6SN7-GTBs, which for $45 a pair were a real bargain.
  
 Bottom line for me is I have discovered it does not take an unreasonable amount of money invested in tubes to achieve truly impressive performance from the Elise using the 1-tube-per-socket approach. I have also come to better appreciate how important it is to achieve good synergy in one's system.


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> ​I have a pair of Chatham 5998s and they are almost as good as the TS-5998s for about 1/4 the price, haven't tried any 5998A's yet, all being used in my BH Crack one at a time, so I rotate them to even out the usage.  This is one of the reasons the Elise became something I was interested in.
> 
> I'm at the point I want to order the Elise but got offered a deal for 2 bottles of 2010 Chateau Haut-Brion for $1000 (less than half price, one of the few 100 rated 2010's) so going with that first.  And I still have to hold them for 4-6 years, lol, *talk about delayed gratification.*


 
 Talk about a serious need to re-order priorities


----------



## HOWIE13

redbull said:


> Where did you order the 7236 and how much?
> Now I am officially "*The lucky ones*" and boy, you are all CORRECT!!


 
 Got them from an eBay seller for £50. Fortunately UK Customs didn't charge me the £18 they were entitled to. They should be here soon.
 Good luck with your new Elise. You will love her!


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> ​I have a pair of Chatham 5998s and they are almost as good as the TS-5998s for about 1/4 the price, haven't tried any 5998A's yet, all being used in my BH Crack one at a time, so I rotate them to even out the usage.  This is one of the reasons the Elise became something I was interested in.
> 
> I'm at the point I want to order the Elise but got offered a deal for 2 bottles of 2010 Chateau Haut-Brion for $1000 (less than half price, one of the few 100 rated 2010's) so going with that first.  And I still have to hold them for 4-6 years, lol, talk about delayed gratification


 
 Elise also improves with age.


----------



## RedBull

howie13 said:


> Got them from an eBay seller for £50. Fortunately UK Customs didn't charge me the £18 they were entitled to. They should be here soon.
> Good luck with your new Elise. You will love her!


 
  
 This one correct? £50 a piece?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-Tung-Sol-NOS-Balance-6520-5998-421A-2399-6AS7G-BIN-Now-Little-Bear-P8/172270943198?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37427%26meid%3D551283bb3b174f01bd3a29ac9c5ff5fc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D172268875331
  
 I love her already


----------



## RedBull

jazzvinyl said:


> Congrats, RedBull!!


 
  
 Thanks.  Now tube rolling begin.
 JV, you are quite an expert in tube.  Have you ever tried 6SJ7 family tubes?


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> It's quite depressing to see the prices of these single tubes like 5998.
> 
> This is the main reason I use the dual power tubes with adapters approach- it's a lot less expensive and still gives excellent sound, for me anyway.


 
  
 Can appreciate your reasoning H13, but may I venture just a couple of points...
  
 1. Adapters really are best kept to a _*minimum, lol*_ - they can be very fickle creatures, no matter how carefully constructed they are...poor mordy has just lost THREE EL3Ns due to duff ones!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 2. By adopting mordy's careful/patient/cunning approach to tube hunting, you _can_ stumble across some really good tubes at reasonable prices...with a good bit of luck thrown in!
 3. Alternatives such as the 7236 powers can certainly raise the ball game, without having to threaten the bank manager...hence the "one tube per socket" theme of this new thread.
  


redbull said:


> Guys, the Eagle has landed yesterday!!  Hurahh!!


 
  
 Bully for you, RedBull...I take it you've already discovered it hasn't been all 'hype' LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Can't wait for more extensive impressions once time has worked its magic...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


pctazhp said:


> I'll be anxious to hear what you think of the 7236s.
> 
> I want to say a little more about my experience with the 5998. For me, they sound good but not special like the 7236s do for me. My 5998s just gather dust in my drawer. When I bought the Elise my goal was to develop an "end game" system. With the EL3N/7236 combo I have achieved that for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo pct. The EL3N certainly does appear to need much longer than usual to fully develop...AND for its true qualities to become more *apparent*. As I mentioned previously, this has been the case for me MUCH more so than with any other tube I've tried. And yes, the rest of the system does seem to have a greater than usual bearing on this. I do feel perhaps some folks have judged this tube at too early a stage...I probably would not have been quite so impressed with it had its _initial _delivery continued for too long!
  
 And I'm glad the 7236s will _probably_ dissuade you from taking the risk (no matter how small) with those multiple adapters...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I wish you continued HAPPY LISTENING!


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
 I'm sure you are correct. I suppose I'm so used to Mrs X's adapters from my G1217 days I think nothing of using them and so far have not had a problem but I understand the potential issues around multiple connections in the sound circuit.
  
 I've got some 7236 tubes coming very soon so maybe I will reach endgame soon!
  
 My main problem is impatience.


----------



## HOWIE13

redbull said:


> This one correct? £50 a piece?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-Tung-Sol-NOS-Balance-6520-5998-421A-2399-6AS7G-BIN-Now-Little-Bear-P8/172270943198?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37427%26meid%3D551283bb3b174f01bd3a29ac9c5ff5fc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D172268875331
> 
> I love her already


 
 So glad you are falling in love 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Elise is certainly very seductive.
  
 My 7236's are Sylvania. Probably similar to those Tung-Sols. I believe the big USA companies re-branded each others stuff anyway..


----------



## JazzVinyl

redbull said:


> Thanks.  Now tube rolling begin.
> JV, you are quite an expert in tube.  Have you ever tried 6SJ7 family tubes?




LOL...no expert!

I only have 6SN7 ECC31, 6N7G (and variants) and C3G for drivers
6AS7 6080 and 6BL7 as powers...


----------



## UntilThen

redbull said:


> This one correct? £50 a piece?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-Tung-Sol-NOS-Balance-6520-5998-421A-2399-6AS7G-BIN-Now-Little-Bear-P8/172270943198?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37427%26meid%3D551283bb3b174f01bd3a29ac9c5ff5fc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D172268875331
> 
> I love her already


 

 When you say the Eagle has landed, I thought the Eagles are performing again at your hometown. I suppose you'll get as close to live performance with Elise. Congrats.
  
 Those are Tung Sol 7236. Correct.
  
 However, you can also buy this Cetron branded ones US$35 each. Cetron bought over Tung Sol in the latter years.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/7236-Cetron-NOS-Balance-6520-5998-421A-2399-6AS7G-Buy-it-Now-Little-Bear-P8/172270793694?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37429%26meid%3Ddc31957dbb3a4160be4a4608ae325640%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D172270943198
  
 According to Nick Tam, who did the extensive power tubes review for Bottlehead Crack, Sylvania 7236 are not similar to Tung Sol or Cetron 7236. Again, one can only be sure if they can all be put through some listening sessions.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> When you say the Eagle has landed, I thought the Eagles are performing again at your hometown. I suppose you'll get as close to live performance with Elise. Congrats.
> 
> Those are Tung Sol 7236. Correct.
> 
> ...


 
 Oh no don't tell me that. Now I'll be compelled to purchase some of those Tung-Sols and Cetrons as well.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I have also come to better appreciate how important it is to achieve good synergy in one's system.


 
 This is important. It shows why there are so varied experiences with 5998, which is a very good tube in my opinion but not at the price they are charging for these days. Back in 2005, these were going for $50 a pair. However, you can say the same for GEC 6AS7G, at more than $500 a pair for NOS now. Price are determine by market forces. Sellers are shrewd to know what tubes are good and priced them according to demand. At today's price, I wouldn't be touching the Tung Sol 6SN7gt black round plates or ECC32.
  
 With the HD800S, I can see why you prefer the 7236 over the 5998. With my T1 g1, I like both tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Oh no don't tell me that. Now I'll be compelled to purchase some of those Tung-Sols and Cetrons as well.


 

 Well Howie, spend another $70 for a pair of Cetron and you can tell us if the Sylvania sounded the same as the Cetron.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> When you say the Eagle has landed, I thought the Eagles are performing again at your hometown. I suppose you'll get as close to live performance with Elise. Congrats.
> 
> Those are Tung Sol 7236. Correct.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks UT.
  
 Do you have the link for the review you mention?
  
 I found this but it doesn't say very much about these three different 7236's in terms of their sonics.
  
  
 http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.475;wap2


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> In defense of the 5998A, they are very good, compared to my tung sol 5998's whcih cost over twice as much, law of diminishing returns applies! Paid $240 for teh pair of new 5998's and they are not substantially better than the 5998a or 6as7,s I have.  Unlike UT I am just goiing to use them up, unless some one wants them enough to cover original cost.  For now using the 5998a with UT's 6n7g's and sounding stunning. YMMV!


 

 I'm humbled that there are 6N7G named after me. Those are Visseaux 6N7G. Similar to Mazda 6N7G. Stunning tubes, both sonically and visually when lit.
  
 You'll find better synergy using 5998 with C3G. This is the 1st combo I heard on my brand new Elise 8 months ago. My eyes popped out and tongue rolled out in Jim Carrey's style.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Well Howie, spend another $70 for a pair of Cetron and you can tell us if the Sylvania sounded the same as the Cetron.


 
 How did I guess you would say that?


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Thanks UT.
> 
> Do you have the link for the review you mention?
> 
> ...


 

 In this section from that link, quote:-
 II.e) [RARE] $50 (NOS) Sylvania (CEI) 7236 [Dual Halo Getters]: 

 Appears to be indifferent to the standard 6AS7. I believe this is the "7236" people are talking about that does not sound any different to the standard ones. It may be a relabelled Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 (See below). There are also some Sylvania metal base versions with a single halo getter, however that is rarely seen.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> In this section from that link, quote:-
> II.e) [RARE] $50 (NOS) Sylvania (CEI) 7236 [Dual Halo Getters]:
> 
> Appears to be indifferent to the standard 6AS7. I believe this is the "7236" people are talking about that does not sound any different to the standard ones. It may be a relabelled Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 (See below). There are also some Sylvania metal base versions with a single halo getter, however that is rarely seen.


 
 Yes I read that and wasn't sure what other 7236 tubes he was comparing it with or how they differed. Not even sure he has actually heard the Sylvania from the way he says 'appears', like he is only going by what others say.
  
 Well I think you are going to be proved, yet again, correct -I will just have to do the comparison myself!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Can appreciate your reasoning H13, but may I venture just a couple of points...
> 
> 1. Adapters really are best kept to a _*minimum, lol*_ - they can be very fickle creatures, no matter how carefully constructed they are...poor mordy has just lost THREE EL3Ns due to duff ones!!
> 
> ...


 
 I have to quote my good friend here. Adapters should be kept to a minimum. I have a lot of tubes and adapters, including the dual ones. Whilst I find quad power tubes pretty good sounding, I'm not convinced they sound better than some of the better power tubes such as 6AS7G, 5998, 7236, 6080s. 
  
 Quad power tubes in Elise ( I must qualify here - because in customized tube amps for multiple power tubes, they can sound astonishing ) gives the impression of a wider soundstage. This is similar to the effect I get when I use Elise as a preamp into the Darkvoice 336se as amp, at one stage. I was intrigued by the change in tone, certainly impressed by the wider soundstage but there's a muddying of sonics. *I get better definition and clarity using Elise alone*. Similarly, I've felt the same way using single power tubes compared to multiple.
  
 Hence I'm now a one tube man.


----------



## connieflyer

Tell me again why we should NOT name tubes after you? Are you not Father Tube? Oh the blasphemy!!!


----------



## RedBull

hypnos1 said:


> Bully for you, RedBull...I take it you've already discovered it hasn't been all 'hype' LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nope, not hype at all.  It sounds very realistic with proper weight, when called for.  I will continue listening before making further judgements.
  


howie13 said:


> So glad you are falling in love
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That bass!!  whoa, it rattles my HD800, down low, not only mid bass, amazing!
  


untilthen said:


> When you say the Eagle has landed, I thought the Eagles are performing again at your hometown. I suppose you'll get as close to live performance with Elise. Congrats.
> 
> Those are Tung Sol 7236. Correct.
> 
> ...


 
 Alrighty sir, will order that tomorrow! 
  
 I have Tungsol, Telefunken 6080 that I like very much.  I seem to like 6080 more than 6AS7. 
 6080 soundstage is wider, better treble extension, more neutral than 6AS7. 
 On the other hand, 6AS7 sounds more bloom in the mids/vocals, sounds more intimate and give the impression of narrower soundstage,
 What do you think?
  
 'Strangely', Elise sounds wonderful *whatever* tubes I slot in.  I remember I did not like 6080 with DV337, I liked 6AS7 more.
  
 Is 7236 sounds like 6080 at all?


----------



## UntilThen

redbull said:


> I have Tungsol, Telefunken 6080 that I like very much.  I seem to like 6080 more than 6AS7.
> 6080 soundstage is wider, better treble extension, more neutral than 6AS7.
> On the other hand, 6AS7 sounds more bloom in the mids/vocals, sounds more intimate and give the impression of narrower soundstage,
> What do you think?
> ...


 
  
 I agree with 6AS7G having more 'bloom' - I call it texture and layers. 6080 sounds more clinical. You can see that it will match different headphones according to how much warm and texture you need to dial in or out.
  
 7236 does not sound like 6080. It may be closer to 6080 than 6AS7G but it's not really sonically similar to 6080. It has that lift to the whole frequency spectrum similar to 5998.
  
 It would be wrong to group all 6080 in one basket. There are quite a few varieties. I'm really curious about the Bendix 6080WB. Again quote here from Nick:-
 II.b.i) $100 (NOS) (Bendix/Tung Sol label) 6080WB with slotted graphite cross columns [Dual D/halo getters]: 

 Very live sounding, dynamic and surreal. Instrument separation is superior to the 5998. However, paired with the E80CC I find that it separated the instruments too much leading to loss of coherence. Upon extended listening, I realized that this was a result of the soundstage going deeper than before. The bass was tight and puinchy . If there is any easier way to describe this tube, this tube takes the linearity of the Tung Sol 7236 and adds deeper and stronger bass much more air. Sonically superior to the 5998.
  
  
 Ps.. I do not agree that 6AS7G has narrower soundstage compared to 6080. I am making comparison with the tubes that I have, namely Chatham 6520 and Mullard 6080. In fact, I find my Tung Sol 5998 and Chatham 6520 having a wider soundstage than my Mullard 6080.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening now with C3G and 5998. This is a rock solid combination. There's dynamics galore. Details and clarity to defy logic. I hear everything. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 High notes extends to stratosphere, vocals caress my ears and bass has that oomph !!!
  
 I'm listening with modded HD650 and T1 though.


----------



## RedBull

untilthen said:


> I agree with 6AS7G having more 'bloom' - I call it texture and layers. 6080 sounds more clinical. You can see that it will match different headphones according to how much warm and texture you need to dial in or out.
> 
> 7236 does not sound like 6080. It may be closer to 6080 than 6AS7G but it's not really sonically similar to 6080. It has that lift to the whole frequency spectrum similar to 5998.
> 
> ...




Got it. I will try my 5998 as justification to get the 7236.
So far I have just tried 6N13C winged C and RCA 6as7 to compare with 6080, I will try my Catham. 
I used to have the Chinese variant as well but I forgot the type. I gave away together when I sold dv337.
I know 5998 has wide soundstage, I was just comparing 6080 with pure 6AS7, not 5998.


----------



## mordy

From what I remember reading, the 7236 to have is the Tung Sol variant, which is supposed to be better sounding than the Sylvania. Don't know about the Cetron 7236.
  
 The 7236 is very similar to the 5998. I only have one 5998. The amplification factors are 4.8/5.5; the amperage 2.4/2.5 and the transconductance is 12,500/15,500. In comparison the fabled Western Electric 421A is 6.1/20,000.
  
 Anyhow, in the past it was difficult for me to compare the 5998 to other tubes since it always played louder than the 6AS7 type tubes with an amplification factor of 2.
  




  
 Here is a picture of a (cringeworthy?) combination of a 7236 and a 5998. The wire you see on the left is to a 4" computer fan. The specifications for 7236 state that  it should be air cooled so as not to exceed 150 degrees.
  
 The two power tubes pair nicely and sound very good. The sound is very similar, but there are differences but so minute that I cannot really put my finger on them. The 5998 has slightly different timbre and a little more bite - a drop brighter. If I don't wear my analytical listening hat I don't notice nothing.
  
 All in all, the 7236 has a very clean, clear sound, and as several other forum members have found out, the sound is enthralling.
  
 Link to spec sheet:
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/7/7236.pdf


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> From what I remember reading, the 7236 to have is the Tung Sol variant, which is supposed to be better sounding than the Sylvania. Don't know about the Cetron 7236.
> 
> The 7236 is very similar to the 5998. I only have one 5998. The amplification factors are 4.8/5.5; the amperage 2.4/2.5 and the transconductance is 12,500/15,500. In comparison the fabled Western Electric 421A is 6.1/20,000.
> 
> ...


 
 That's very interesting, you are using a different power tube for each channel. I never thought of doing that.
  
 Thanks for the info about the 7326 tubes.
  
 Do you think this is the Tung-Sol you mention?
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-MATCHED-PAIR-TUNG-SOL-7236-1965-08-DATE-CODES-5998-421A-TUBE-FOR-WOO-AUDIO-/182182724803?hash=item2a6aefc4c3:g:2hQAAOSw-QBXPcv7
  
 Problem is the ridiculous cost of postage! I suppose I could offer him $20 for the tubes but he would probably refuse.


----------



## connieflyer

He wants $120 plus $14 shipping , kind of high, especially the shipping.  Don't know what it would be for Howie but shipping from California to Michigan for these is ridiculous.   I pass.


----------



## connieflyer

Just  had a request of one of you here.....When I die, please change my Facebook stsus to, "It's not as hot as I thought it would be"..  that's all folks!


----------



## UntilThen

Cycling through my driver tubes. 
  
 From C3G to ECC31, very good contrast here. More woolly but very smooth. 5998 is put to good use here. These are some of my favorites.


----------



## RedBull

connieflyer said:


> Just  had a request of one of you here.....When I die, please change my Facebook stsus to, "It's not as hot as I thought it would be"..  that's all folks!




Don't say that CF! ..... or am I not getting the joke?


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> He wants $120 plus $14 shipping , kind of high, especially the shipping.  Don't know what it would be for Howie but shipping from California to Michigan for these is ridiculous.   I pass.


 
 For me in UK he wants $119 plus *$123.68 *for shipping.  It's UPS Worldwide Saver.


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 It looks to be the same tube, but mine have different color print and are from 1958.
  
 The price and shipping is outrageous. Just be patient, check eBay often, and a much more palatable deal will come up.
  
 Regarding mixing tubes, it can be done if the tubes are similar in their specifications. In the past hypnos1 had great success with the Mullard ECC31 and FDD20, even though the tubes have different bases and voltage requirements. At best, mixing tubes have a great and seamless synergistic effect, but the opposite may also happen if the tubes are too dissimilar.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> It looks to be the same tube, but mine have different color print and are from 1958.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Mordy. I'm not a patient sort of person but the Credit Card is spent up for this month so will have to wait anyway.
  
 Mixing tubes could be interesting for Classical where different instruments are in each channel. Violins left, Bass right- could be fun fine tuning the sound, but I think I'd better stick to homogeny at this early stage in my Elise career.


----------



## DavidA

howie13 said:


> Thanks, Mordy. I'm not a patient sort of person but the Credit Card is spent up for this month so will have to wait anyway.
> 
> Mixing tubes could be interesting for Classical where different instruments are in each channel. Violins left, Bass right- could be fun fine tuning the sound, but I think I'd better stick to homogeny at this early stage in my Elise career.


 
 Can I trade you a bottle of 2010 Chateau Haut-Brion?  my credit card is no where to be found, lol, yeah, I know my priorities are really messed up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> Can I trade you a bottle of 2010 Chateau Haut-Brion?  my credit card is no where to be found, lol, yeah, I know my priorities are really messed up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 OMG 5 years ago I would have been very tempted but sadly my doctor has told me I must drink less alcohol!


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 Mixing tubes only works if they produce a seamless and coherent sound stage together; in other words, the tubes disappear as entities. If you hear two separate halves of the soundstage it will drive you crazy lol. It did happen that I tried tubes that did not have synergy, and it is not a pleasant experience to listen to.
  
 I do not advocate mixing tubes, but at times it works well. In my case I only have one 5998 and I am still looking for a reasonable price for another one.
  
 Talamod ar en dygd. Ask Oskari


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> Mixing tubes only works if they produce a seamless and coherent sound stage together; in other words, the tubes disappear as entities. If you hear two separate halves of the soundstage it will drive you crazy lol. It did happen that I tried tubes that did not have synergy, and it is not a pleasant experience to listen to.
> 
> ...


 
 Well the wife has hidden the credit card until next Thursday, then I can start looking again.


----------



## mordy

Here is an old joke:
  
 One guy says to another: My credit card was stolen, but I am not reporting it.
  
 Other person: Why?
  
 First guy: Because the person who stole the card spends less than my wife!


----------



## pctazhp

I hope this won't be seen as an inappropriate diversion to this thread, and I apologize in advance to anyone who thinks it is.
  
 Just a little while ago I stupidly allowed myself to get into an objective vs subjective discussion on another thread. Someone there pointed me to this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/10335#post_12447731
  
 It is a long post. But I thought it was so well written and so interesting, I wanted to share it here.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Here is an old joke:
> 
> One guy says to another: My credit card was stolen, but I am not reporting it.
> 
> ...


 
 LOL Those roles would be reversed in my house.


----------



## connieflyer

Interesting take, I read that awhile back.  Interesting discussion. No objection to this from me, but that is subjective!


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Read the article but it does not speak to me. Cannot remember a forum member bringing up measurements.
  
 When i started with tube amps some 7 years ago I was surprised to find that it is possible to reach a consensus on how a certain tube sounds or how an amp performs, especially given all the different people and types of ancillary equipment involved.
  
 It is possible to find a limited range of items that appeal to the vast majority of the people. Subjective/objective - who cares? To me it is like/don't like (and respect for sincere people that don't like).
  
 Then you have people that listen to music and people that listen to their equipment - so what? If it makes you happy either way is fine with me. And some listen and listen until they find just what they want, and then it is just music listening and no tube rolling any more....


----------



## geetarman49

pctazhp said:


> This is going to sound like unabashed nationalism (which it is) but my Elise took exactly two days to clear US customs


 
  
  


oskari said:


> And mine never saw any customs.


 

 now, now ... there's no need for evil talk 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... no, not jealous at all  ... i know my new 55" p-series vizio will keep me placated (should be here soon ... much sooner than elise).


----------



## geetarman49

davida said:


> ​I have a pair of Chatham 5998s and they are almost as good as the TS-5998s for about 1/4 the price, haven't tried any 5998A's yet, all being used in my BH Crack one at a time, so I rotate them to even out the usage.  This is one of the reasons the Elise became something I was interested in.
> 
> I'm at the point I want to order the Elise but got offered a deal for 2 bottles of 2010 Chateau Haut-Brion for $1000 (less than half price, one of the few 100 rated 2010's) so going with that first.  And I still have to hold them for 4-6 years, lol, talk about delayed gratification.


 

 elise is a capital acquisition --- will easily last 15yr + of solid enjoyment
 chateau haut-brion is an ostentatious consumable --- will last a few hours (at most) however enjoyable  ... having said that, i'd like a glass, please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Talamod ar en dygd. Ask Oskari




I has it. (At times.) :rolleyes:


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Read the article but it does not speak to me. Cannot remember a forum member bringing up measurements.
> 
> ...


 
 Unfortunately, you did not see my posts on the thread where I was having the discussion (different thread than the Schiit thread). By referencing Jason's post I wasn't promoting any particular agenda. My main criteria is what brings me listening enjoyment. I have posted numerous subjective statements here at HeadFi. Sorry you didn't like the article. I thought it was interesting coming from someone who has been through all the audio debates for decades.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> Can I trade you a bottle of 2010 Chateau Haut-Brion?  my credit card is no where to be found, lol, yeah, I know my priorities are really messed up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I will NOT trade my Elise and Samurai whisky.....and my vintage tubes. My priorities are correct.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I will NOT trade my Elise and Samurai whisky.....and my vintage tubes. My priorities are correct.


 
  
 We need to go easy on poor @DavidA. He has not yet heard the Elise and knoweth not what he is missing.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I had a mega wonderful time at the Head-Fi meet yesterday!!! I'm sitting on such a massive volcano of information / discoveries that it may take me a few weeks to decompress it all. And one of the things was trying the new $4,000 Focal Utopia on the Elise with 8 tubes and that was basically a mind melting experience 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. I strongly urge you folks to stay tuned to the imprssions thread because info. is starting to come in hot and thick, along with many photos that were taken of my Elise. There is a photo and comment of my Elise so far, but since it was displayed most of the time with the aptly named "Christmas Tree" configuration, I won't link directly to that post on this thread, but will just mention it's post 56 here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/814341/official-2016-sf-head-fi-meet-impressions-thread-july-16-2016
  
 Also, I just posted some first timer impressions here on the other Elise thread


----------



## RedBull

Awesome meet DL! I am jealous.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Well I had a mega wonderful time at the Head-Fi meet yesterday!!! I'm sitting on such a massive volcano of information / discoveries that it may take me a few weeks to decompress it all. And one of the things was trying the new $4,000 Focal Utopia on the Elise with 8 tubes and that was basically a mind melting experience
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's a shame you did not have 
  
 C3G and 5998
 EL3N and 7236 or Chatham 6520
  
 They would have been even more blown away without resorting to Christmas tree setup. Fyi, I've heard the multiple tubes setup (2xEL3N and 2x6BL7 + 2x6SN7) many times in comparison with those 2 setups above. I'm a firm believer that the above 2 combinations are way better. I'm also a firm believer that the less you resort to multiple adapters (especially adapters upon adapters) the longer your Elise will last.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well thanks for the heads-up. Those seem to be your favorite combos for the Elise and I will enjoy getting those when funds permit, depending on availability. I was really just working with the tubes I had, which IMO are fantastic so far.
  
 Also for those interested, I just updated the other Elise thread with some subjective comparisons between the Elise and ZD, Tungsten, and its pairing with the HEX.


----------



## ostewart

untilthen said:


> Gday Stewart. Are you a professional reviewer?


 
  
 Depends on what you mean professional, but I have been reviewing for about 4 years now and worked with quite a few companies. Feliks audio being one. I do it in my spare time, which I do not have a lot of


----------



## hypnos1

ostewart said:


> Depends on what you mean professional, but I have been reviewing for about 4 years now and worked with quite a few companies. Feliks audio being one. I do it in my spare time, which I do not have a lot of


 
  
 Looks like you knew about Feliks-Audio even before I approached them with the idea for an "Elise" then, ostewart? So no doubt _they_ will be looking forward to your impressions, just as much as _we_ shall be lol! Let's hope you don't have too long a wait - which is what I hope also for those in line before you!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Well thanks for the heads-up. Those seem to be your favorite combos for the Elise and I will enjoy getting those when funds permit, depending on availability. I was really just working with the tubes I had, which IMO are fantastic so far.
> 
> Also for those interested, I just updated the other Elise thread with some subjective comparisons between the Elise and ZD, Tungsten, and its pairing with the HEX.


 

 Ok got it, understood. Good on you for putting more exposure on Elise. She deserves the praise. I'll read your comparisons soon.


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> Depends on what you mean professional, but I have been reviewing for about 4 years now and worked with quite a few companies. Feliks audio being one. I do it in my spare time, which I do not have a lot of


 

 Thanks for the reply Stewart and apologies for my rather blunt question. Since you said you'll be given Elise for review, I thought it would be good for us to know your background. 
  
 I've read Michael Piskor of Headfonics review of the Expressivo and he was very lavish on his praise for that amp.
  
 http://headfonics.com/2016/03/the-expressivo-by-feliks-audio/


----------



## ostewart

hypnos1 said:


> Looks like you knew about Feliks-Audio even before I approached them with the idea for an "Elise" then, ostewart? So no doubt _they_ will be looking forward to your impressions, just as much as _we_ shall be lol! Let's hope you don't have too long a wait - which is what I hope also for those in line before you!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I only found them around May last year, and reviewed the Espressivo September last year (lots of listening before reviewing) http://www.soundperfectionreviews.com/2015/09/review-feliks-audio-espressivo-hand.html
  
 I need to post the review in the section on here actually.


----------



## UntilThen

Stunning pictures from your Expressivo review Stewart. I'll look forward to your thoughts on Elise when you get it.
  
 This is another of my favorite tube combination. Not as sharp and clinical as C3G and 5998 but still very good with micro details and very extended high notes. I find the mids and bass blend in very well so much so you'll just enjoy your music. It's the most visually striking tubes when lit that I've seen. Mazda and Visseaux 6N7G has that glow.
  
 This combination is totally silent on my Elise with no music playing. With Beyer T1, it's a musical treat.


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> I only found them around May last year, and reviewed the Espressivo September last year (lots of listening before reviewing) http://www.soundperfectionreviews.com/2015/09/review-feliks-audio-espressivo-hand.html
> 
> I need to post the review in the section on here actually.


 
 Great review of Espressivo, and much needed too!
  
 C3G tubes sound very good as power tubes, and have a more solid and spacious sound-stage, together with better dynamics, than the stock 6N6P/6N30P types of tube.
  
 Also, although Espressivo wasn't designed to use 6SN7 tubes they sound excellent as Drivers. They would provide a bit less gain than 6DJ8 tubes for the very sensitive headphones you mention as well.
  
 I am presently using C3G's to power and 'Bad Boys' or GE 6SN7GTA's to drive.
  
 With the stock 6N6P tubes I found Mullard ECC88's from 1963 to provide very good sound with a much bigger sound-stage than the stock Russian drivers, and with pin-point imaging.


----------



## connieflyer

DL. Problem is the the way the amp was presented. It may sound alright but most people would avoid it looking like a Rube  Goldberg contraption . With normal complement  of tubes it would look like something serious not some child experiment . Missed a good opportunity to advance Feliks Audio as a serious product. After all what is good for Feliks is good for all of us. Note his comment, he was getting ready to leave when he thought he would check out the Christmas tree, how many others had The  same thought and just passed it by.,because the presentation was so ridiculous they would not even consider purchasing it.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> DL. Problem is the the way the amp was presented. It may sound alright but most people would avoid it looking like a Rube  Goldberg contraption . With normal complement  of tubes it would look like something serious not some child experiment . Missed a good opportunity to advance Feliks Audio as a serious product. After all what is good for Feliks is good for all of us. Note his comment, he was getting ready to leave when he thought he would check out the Christmas tree, how many others had The  same thought and just passed it by.,because the presentation was so ridiculous they would not even consider purchasing it.


 
 I completely agree with you CF. Personally (and this is just me) I would have been embarrassed showing up at a serious meet with something looking so silly.
  
 I also was a little disappointed to read the comparison posted on the other thread to the extent that the Liquid Tungsten and ZD made the Elise take a "back seat". I've never heard the Tungsten or ZD and they are at an entirely different price point than the Elise. They may in fact have better SQ (or possibly just different). But comparing those amps to DL's Elise which he admits was not burned in and probably (in my opinion) not presenting the Elise at its best is to me unfortunate.
  
 I am totally open to the possibility that the Elise can be improved on by the expenditure of more money (probably a lot more). For me, the additional money would not be worth it. I'm thrilled with what I have achieved with the Elise. But until I can read a credible comparison between any other high-dollar amp and the Elise used with tube combos like the ones recommended by @UntilThen using headphones of the T1 or HD800 performance level, I'm not ready to reach any conclusions.


----------



## connieflyer

This was the main reason for abandoning the other Elise thread, got tired of all the hype of "being blown away" every time a new tube combo was tried. All those adapters stack3d up on one another looks stupid and adds to the chance for a failure in the signal path. Everything entered into the signal path contributes to resistance, and inter electrode capacitance, and distortion that is why the designers try not to add extra components to a design.  Has anyone done the calculations to see just what all these adapter tube combos actually do in the circuit?


----------



## UntilThen

I wouldn't go and compare Elise with just about any tube amp under the sun, regardless of price. I love this tube amp and it's a street car named Desire. For $700, it's an affordable, gorgeous open top.
  
 Now give me a song.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> This was the main reason for abandoning the other Elise thread, got tired of all the hype of "being blown away" every time a new tube combo was tried. All those adapters stack3d up on one another looks stupid and adds to the chance for a failure in the signal path. Everything entered into the signal path contributes to resistance, and inter electrode capacitance, and distortion that is why the designers try not to add extra components to a design.  Has anyone done the calculations to see just what all these adapter tube combos actually do in the circuit?


 
 In a post at the other thread yesterday, Glenn reminded us that the power tubes in the Elise are cathode followers with 0 gain. According to him, running multiple 6AS7s in the power sockets will lower the output impedance some, but not result in a big gain. With high impedance cans like the T1 and HD800 I doubt the lower impedance would make any difference.
  
 Anyway, I'm probably deviating from my own guidelines, so I will just continue now listening to Elise with EL3N/Chatham 6AS7Gs and keep a box of tissues nearby to wipe away the tears of joy)))


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I wouldn't go and compare Elise with just about any tube amp under the sun, regardless of price. I love this tube amp and it's a street car named Desire. For $700, it's an affordable, gorgeous open top.
> 
> *Now give me a song.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You got it:


----------



## connieflyer

Still love her voice impressive, thanks had not heard this one


----------



## UntilThen

Back to the Future with Michael J Fox.


----------



## ostewart

My Elise is being prepped, will be shipping in 1-2 weeks time,


----------



## hypnos1

ostewart said:


> I only found them around May last year, and reviewed the Espressivo September last year (lots of listening before reviewing) http://www.soundperfectionreviews.com/2015/09/review-feliks-audio-espressivo-hand.html
> 
> I need to post the review in the section on here actually.


 
  
 Great review ostewart....and nice blog - keep up the good work! And yeah, Espressivo sure does look _incredible_ value-for-money. FA's power amps also look SO tempting, but using Elise as pre-amp to my Vincent SS integrated delivers such a good sound from my Dynaudios I can't really justify the expenditure...(but perhaps one day, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...trouble is I enjoy my music through the T1s so much I hardly ever use speakers anyway!).


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen:  The original "Earth Angel"


----------



## UntilThen

Up until today, I've not heard of Earth Angel 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and I've to say that I actually like the song both by the Penguins and Chris Martin.


----------



## aqsw

One person at the SF meet said"and it "gave the Liquid Carbon a run for it's money"
  
 Well I own both amps and the Cavalli is in my office. It gets no playing time versus the Felix. It gives it much more than a run for it's money.
 It kicks the Cavalli to the curb.


----------



## mordy

Continuing to be amazed about the sound of the Tung Sol 7236 and EL3N combination. There is a clarity to the sound and an intensity and vividness to the mid range that I can only characterize as a glow.
  
 Wow!
  

  

  
 (image missing)


----------



## mordy

Continuing to be amazed about the sound of the combination Tung Sol 7236 and the EL3N. There is a clarity to the sound and an intensity and vividness to the mid range than I can only characterize as a glow....
  
 I tried to show a nature picture of what I mean, but there is something in the program that does not allow me to post it. Anyhow, here is the link:
  
 http://www.utah3d.net/utah-travel/southern-utah/red-canyon-milky-way.html
  
 Use your mouse and drag it around until you see that familiar bright orange glow.....


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> One person at the SF meet said"and it "gave the Liquid Carbon a run for it's money"
> 
> Well I own both amps and the Cavalli is in my office. It gets no playing time versus the Felix. It gives it much more than a run for it's money.
> It kicks the Cavalli to the curb.


 

 Thanks AQ. We need some honest reporting.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I tried to show a nature picture of what I mean, but there is something in the program that does not allow me to post it. Anyhow, here is the link:
> 
> http://www.utah3d.net/utah-travel/southern-utah/red-canyon-milky-way.html
> 
> Use your mouse and drag it around until you see that familiar bright orange glow.....


 
 That's a lovely 3D scenic view of Utah. The stars in the skies and I'm reminded of Coldplay video shot in Newtown, Sydney. I missed it when they were there.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Continuing to be amazed about the sound of the combination Tung Sol 7236 and the EL3N. There is a clarity to the sound and an intensity and vividness to the mid range than I can only characterize as a glow....


 
 I couldn't agree more. Back when I still have the bronze skull on my desk, I've love this combo. It's one of several of my favorites. Back in the other thread, in post #9291, I mention a few combinations and I list these at the top. These are my top combinations.
  
 EL3N with 5998
 EL3N with Chatham 6520
 EL3N with 7236
 C3G with 5998


----------



## UntilThen

This is specially for Aqsw. He likes these combos.


----------



## UntilThen

For greater intensity and vividness, you've to hear C3G with 7236. Picture in post #17.
  
 ... and try this video.


----------



## connieflyer

Probably would not post because it is a large 3D picture.  I subscribe to their website, so when a new image is ready I get the link in my email.  Breathtaking views!


----------



## DavidA

aqsw said:


> One person at the SF meet said"and it "gave the Liquid Carbon a run for it's money"
> 
> Well I own both amps and the Cavalli is in my office. It gets no playing time versus the Felix. It gives it much more than a run for it's money.
> It kicks the Cavalli to the curb.


 
 Does this apply to all the headphones in your profile?  Aside from the Ether C, most are fairly easy to drive and for the Grado and PX-200 I would think the Elise would make them sound much warmer than with the LC which is fairly neutral so I would say you favor a warmer sound versus the neutral/colder sound of the LC.


----------



## DavidA

mordy said:


> Continuing to be amazed about the sound of the combination Tung Sol 7236 and the EL3N. There is a clarity to the sound and an intensity and vividness to the mid range than I can only characterize as a glow....
> 
> I tried to show a nature picture of what I mean, but there is something in the program that does not allow me to post it. Anyhow, here is the link:
> 
> ...


 
 I think you sent us a link to the site earlier and I've bookmarked it, really like it in full screen on my 60" screen, can really space out on it with some music playing, either on speakers or headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

Nearly everyone who buys Elise or an equivalent tube amp will prefer the organic, warm (varying degrees) tone over the a neutral ss amp sound. Not saying every ss amp sound dead neutral. Some are slightly warm too like the Violectric 281 which I heard T1 in balanced mode.
  
 Hence I'm not surprise AQ prefers Elise. I would too. Have heard the Audio Gd Master Series 6 dac with an Audio Gd amp but I'll take Elise sound. That's my preference with T1, HD650 and HE560.


----------



## mordy

If I remember correctly CF alerted us to this website. The starry sky was emailed to me later and it has an double glow on the horizon; one orange and one whiter. Don't know if it is a time delay exposure of the sun and the moon...
  
 Just saw now that my antivirus program is worried about this site but I don't think that there is anything wrong with it - it just says unknown.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> If I remember correctly CF alerted us to this website. The starry sky was emailed to me later and it has an double glow on the horizon; one orange and one whiter. Don't know if it is a time delay exposure of the sun and the moon...
> 
> Just saw now that my antivirus program is worried about this site but I don't think that there is anything wrong with it - it just says unknown.




The various Glows seen on the horizon is light pollution coming up from distant cities.

See this global map for locations to expect light pollution, or to find dark skies:

http://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html


.


----------



## JazzVinyl

If you like the dark sky map, try this one:

http://map.norsecorp.com/#/

Shows global cyber attacks in real time. Look at the "Live Attacks" panel, it shows the Attack Timestamp, Attacker, Attacker IP, Attacker's GEO, Target GEO, Attack Type, and the Port used to launch the attack.

Rather remarkable! 

.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for the link, impressive, spent the last ten minutes ducking down to make sure no one was shooting at me!


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> Nearly everyone who buys Elise or an equivalent tube amp will prefer the organic, warm (varying degrees) tone over the a neutral ss amp sound. Not saying every ss amp sound dead neutral. Some are slightly warm too like the Violectric 281 which I heard T1 in balanced mode.
> 
> Hence I'm not surprise AQ prefers Elise. I would too. Have heard the Audio Gd Master Series 6 dac with an Audio Gd amp but I'll take Elise sound. That's my preference with T1, HD650 and HE560.


 
 With your headphones I would take the Elise over almost any SS amp for the T1 and HD-650, for the HE-560 I think it does better with hybrid versus OTL, with OTL amps the bass gets a little muddy and I think its due to the damping factor being too low.  I tried the HE-560 on a EC Balancing Act and its not a great match, the bass was a touch muddy and the highs are rolled off, but if you do like that sound then its not a problem.
  
 How one views an amp is many times determined by the headphones used, most with the Elise have HD-800, 650, 600 and T1, all headphones that really shine with an OTL amp.  Not too many have planar headphones as their main cans and have the Elise since its not the best pairing IMO.  And that is where I have a hard decision, one amp to drive the high z headphones really well and a second amp for the planar's, or a great hybrid that does almost anything great.


----------



## aqsw

I use 





davida said:


> With your headphones I would take the Elise over almost any SS amp for the T1 and HD-650, for the HE-560 I think it does better with hybrid versus OTL, with OTL amps the bass gets a little muddy and I think its due to the damping factor being too low.  I tried the HE-560 on a EC Balancing Act and its not a great match, the bass was a touch muddy and the highs are rolled off, but if you do like that sound then its not a problem.
> 
> How one views an amp is many times determined by the headphones used, most with the Elise have HD-800, 650, 600 and T1, all headphones that really shine with an OTL amp.  Not too many have planar headphones as their main cans and have the Elise since its not the best pairing IMO.  And that is where I have a hard decision, one amp to drive the high z headphones really well and a second amp for the planar's, or a great hybrid that does almost anything great.




I must be rare breed. I use Planars and absolutely love them. I sent my T1s back after 3 days of listening. I will take my Ethers any day. I actually thought my Oppo Pm3s sounded as good s the T1s. Maybe something was wrong with them.

I really believe the dac is more important than the amp, and I spent ALOT more on my two dacs than I did my two amps with no regrets. When you hear a quality dac you will get it. I am amazed by my tube dac every time I turn it on. The Elise just complements it.

JMO


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> This is specially for Aqsw. He likes these combos. :bigsmile_face:




Thanks, Those are the two I use.!!!
Top picture is my go to. 
6080s are really good too, but my amp gets too hot. 
Cant run them mre than 16 hours


----------



## aqsw

davida said:


> Does this apply to all the headphones in your profile?  Aside from the Ether C, most are fairly easy to drive and for the Grado and PX-200 I would think the Elise would make them sound much warmer than with the LC which is fairly neutral so I would say you favor a warmer sound versus the neutral/colder sound of the LC.




To tell you the truth , my Grados or px200 s are packed away after moving. Don't even want to look for them.

I will state my comments are based on Ether Cs, Oppo PM3s, Beyer T1s, and Audeze Lcd 2.2s.


----------



## DavidA

aqsw said:


> To tell you the truth , my Grados or px200 s are packed away after moving. Don't even want to look for them.
> 
> I will state my comments are based on Ether Cs, Oppo PM3s, Beyer T1s, and Audeze Lcd 2.2s.


 
 Thanks for the reply, do you prefer a warmer sound?  I only heard the Ether and it was a bit bass lite to me so I'm thinking that driving them with a OTL amp will bring out the bass much better than a SS but it might not be the best quality bass.  Guess I might just have to buy an Elise and see for my self, if it doesn't work out then it looks like it might be fairly easy to sell and I'll be saving for 6-8 months for the Liquid Glass which I know sounds great with almost any headphone when I tried it last year at a friends house.


----------



## UntilThen

I do not think HE560 has muddy bass or rolled off highs with Elise. Surprisingly the other forum 1st post seems to think HE560 perform well too with Elise.

At the onset of Elise creation, one of the goal of Felik Audio was that this OTL amp be able to handle high as well as low impedance headphones. Of course in audio, there will be better but it will come at a cost.

Having said that I find myself using modded HD650 and T1 90% of the time with Elise. Just a preference as aqsw and jerick prefers their planar magnetics of LCD2.2 and Ether C.

I'll not have more than 2 headphones at a given time as some will simply not be used.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I do not think HE560 has muddy bass or rolled off highs with Elise. Surprisingly the other forum 1st post seems to think HE560 perform well too with Elise.
> 
> At the onset of Elise creation, one of the goal of Felik Audio was that this OTL amp be able to handle high as well as low impedance headphones. Of course in audio, there will be better but it will come at a cost.
> 
> ...


 
 I hope my HD800S never breaks because I don't even know where my HD700 and HD598 are right now. To each his own. I would go insane with a shoe rack full of headphones. I have enough trouble deciding whether or not to have cream with my morning coffee let alone trying to decide what headphone to listen to. I killed a lot of brain cells during my tube rolling days.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I hope my HD800S never breaks because I don't even know where my HD700 and HD598 are right now. To each his own. I would go insane with a shoe rack full of headphones. I have enough trouble deciding whether or not to have cream with my morning coffee let alone trying to decide what headphone to listen to. I killed a lot of brain cells during my tube rolling days.


 
  
 Shoe rack- wonder where that came from? LOL


----------



## DavidA

Quote: 





pctazhp said:


> I hope my HD800S never breaks because I don't even know where my HD700 and HD598 are right now. To each his own. I would go insane with a shoe rack full of headphones. I have enough trouble deciding whether or not to have cream with my morning coffee let alone trying to decide what headphone to listen to. I killed a lot of brain cells during my tube rolling days.


 
 I go from my lanai to living room to bedroom and will listen to headphones in each so I need a few, maybe not the shoe rack full amount 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




​.  By the way, I had cream with my coffee this morning which is really weird since I only drink coffee once or twice a year.  Wanted to stay up to watch the moon set as the sun was rising this morning, didn't get that great but still nice.


----------



## UntilThen

Fact check:

Wearing headphones constantly will give you an elongated head, like Clint Eastwood. Lean, mean and good looking.

So guys and gals do wear your headphones constantly.


----------



## UntilThen

Weird double post


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> Weird double post


 
 Elise magic


----------



## connieflyer

DavidA love the picture, looks really nice. I was staioned out at Barbers Point (now John Rogers) from 1963-1965 and loved the mornings. Only place I have ever lived, that getting up early was a pleasure instead of a pain, remembering of course, being young meant imbibing plenty!  I remember getting up one morning and it was still dark, stayed that way on the way to the hangar and by 8 o'clock was a little conceerned, then heard that Mona Loa had erupted and the skiies were darkened because of all the ash.  Loved Co-ed season, when all the school teachers came to the Islands to find love and adventure.  Just call me Romeo guide number one!  Had three pair of headphones at one time and always went to my favorite so saw no sense in keeping the others around.  Don't use the Senn 800 much anymore, now that the wife has passed, I usually use Elise as a pre-amp.


----------



## connieflyer

Reading the posts on the San Fran head fi meet, got a good laugh from Nicolas (velvetx)  post 110 "Good news is I am thankful I am alive as I was concerned that @DecentLevi's Tower Of Babel was going to burn the place down."  looks like more than one saw it.  Have gone back to E3n/s for now, using the Elise as a pre-amp they sound better than the other combo's I have tried.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Tried your suggestion of Tung Sol 7236 and Siemens C3gS (Speziale).
  





  
 They sound very good, with more emphasis in the treble than the EL3N. However, the bass is better controlled with the EL3N. In addition, the timbre and soundstage are better with the EL3N in my system (where the Elise is used as a preamp).
  
 YMMV, but the C3gS/7236 does not sound as good to me as the EL3N/7236 which is my go to tube combination at this time.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


>




Mordy, do you always run with the volume 'wide open' as it appears here?

.


----------



## mordy

Hi JV,
  
 In my system this usually works the best - volume all the way up. Sometimes there is distortion and I have to dial it back to 3 o'clock. Please note that is only when using the Elise as a preamp.
  
 With headphones the volume is usually set at 10-11 o'clock; sometimes a little more.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 How about a new addition? There is only one made. You have to buy the pair - $22,000.00 including shipping, but then you have the satisfaction of knowing that nobody else has it.
  




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valve-World-STC-4212-SE-tube-amplifier-monoblock-HUGE-MONSTER-Ex-RARE-/281922889706?hash=item41a3e9e7ea:g:4zYAAOSw5dNWrMtU


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> How about a new addition? There is only one made. You have to buy the pair - $22,000.00 including shipping, but then you have the satisfaction of knowing that nobody else has it.


 
  
 Yeah right, I'll pass unless I want to sleep in the dog house.
  
 I'm back to EL3N and 7236 now too. It's good sounding, less heat and trouble free. What more can you ask for. Just listen to music. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 In other news, my mind is in a spin when @Lord Raven tells me hd800 is off now and T1 is on. Come on LR, what is it gonna be?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Tried your suggestion of Tung Sol 7236 and Siemens C3gS (Speziale).
> 
> ...


 

 Hey @mordy why do all your tubes and adapters have the red stripe?


----------



## UntilThen

My song contribution for today. I'm a country boy at heart occasionally. So here goes.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> Yeah right, I'll pass unless I want to sleep in the dog house.
> 
> I'm back to EL3N and 7236 now too. It's good sounding, less heat and trouble free. What more can you ask for. Just listen to music.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 LOL HD 800 is lost in the post, how terrible is this news? I cannot believe it, USA, in 21st century, has unreliable posting service.
  
 T1 is coming, from a small island where no one wanted to post it to SA, had to ship it to France to my forwarding address and then to my location. Terrible, wish we could download hardware!
  
 7236 pair cleared SA customs and will be here to pair with EL3N soon, maybe first day of next week hehe


----------



## UntilThen

When was the last time you dance like this? I have the Daft Punk album and I really like it 
  
 
  
 or this


----------



## Lord Raven

AWESOME 
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> When was the last time you dance like this? I have the Daft Punk album and I really like it
> 
> 
> 
> or this


----------



## DavidA

@UntilThen, thanks for the John Denver vid, I remember seeing him in concert twice, once at the Waikiki Shell and on Maui many years ago, and I think he passed away not too long after that concert on Maui.
  
@Lord Raven, I think you need the transporter from StarTrek.


----------



## UntilThen

John Denver did give us a lot of unforgettable songs. 
  
 However I like this dynamic duo.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally I'm a John Mayer fan. This is a song, I'll close my eyes and be lost in the music.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> Finally I'm a John Mayer fan. This is a song, I'll close my eyes and be lost in the music.




 I got all his high-res albums  He is amazing!


----------



## Lord Raven

davida said:


> @UntilThen, thanks for the John Denver vid, I remember seeing him in concert twice, once at the Waikiki Shell and on Maui many years ago, and I think he passed away not too long after that concert on Maui.
> 
> @Lord Raven, I think you need the transporter from StarTrek.


 
 This is what I was thinking about  I have been a Star Trek guy all my life hehe


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> Finally I'm a John Mayer fan. This is a song, I'll close my eyes and be lost in the music.




 I know right, love this guys tone and his over all playing.
 I am listening with the RS1 with 5998 & C3g.....sounds great, very transparent headphone.
  
 I have been working my way through his whole discography.
  
  
  


lord raven said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Finally I'm a John Mayer fan. This is a song, I'll close my eyes and be lost in the music.
> ...




 +1


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## connieflyer




----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> My song contribution for today. I'm a country boy at heart occasionally. So here goes.




 As with @DavidA I saw him twice. The first time was in a small Scottsdale coffee house in the 60s. He was an unknown at the time but I went to see him because I heard he played the 12-string guitar. The second time was a huge concert in the 70s at the height of his fame. Thanks for remembering him.


----------



## connieflyer

A fitting song in our time.....


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 There are two reason for the little red pin stripes:
  
 I have a few tubes and adapters where the guide pin broke off, so i marked these items so that they should be inserted the correct way.
  
 In addition, turning 70 soon, my eyesight isn't the best, and having the pinstripes makes it easier to insert the tubes into the sockets.


----------



## geetarman49

lord raven said:


> LOL HD 800 is lost in the post, how terrible is this news? I cannot believe it, USA, in 21st century, has unreliable posting service.
> 
> T1 is coming, from a small island where no one wanted to post it to SA, had to ship it to France to my forwarding address and then to my location. Terrible, wish we could download hardware!
> 
> 7236 pair cleared SA customs and will be here to pair with EL3N soon, maybe first day of next week hehe


 

 your phone is lost; my elise is still stuck in customs (37 calendar days & counting) ...  i wonder if any other canucks had issues getting elise into the country?
 LR,  there's a line in the song 'born under a bad sign' that aptly describes our current audio predicaments.


----------



## frederick-rea

Pure Magic
 ELISE on Chatham JAN-6AS7G power tubes with Psvane TII Series CV181-Z as drivers listening AMBER RUBARTH - 



 Sessions from the 17th Ward 
  
  
  
  
Full Moon In Paris
  
Chesky Records - Binaural+ Series


----------



## JazzVinyl

frederick-rea said:


> Pure Magic
> ELISE on Chatham JAN-6AS7G power tubes with [COLOR=333333]Psvane TII Series CV181-Z as drivers listening AMBER RUBARTH




Welcome and congrats @frederick-rea!!

Your have joined the *LUCKY ONES* !!


----------



## UntilThen

frederick-rea said:


> Pure Magic
> ELISE on Chatham JAN-6AS7G power tubes with Psvane TII Series CV181-Z as drivers listening AMBER RUBARTH -


 
  
 That should be a good combination. Elise magic indeed.


----------



## aqsw

geetarman49 said:


> your phone is lost; my elise is still stuck in customs (37 calendar days & counting) ...  i wonder if any other canucks had issues getting elise into the country?
> LR,  there's a line in the song 'born under a bad sign' that aptly describes our current audio predicaments.




Mine cleared customs in two days. Sorry to her about yours.


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> Mine cleared customs in two days. Sorry to her about yours.




Yes! Poor guy! 37 days...must seem like YEARS, hope it arrives tomorrow!! Sheesh....


----------



## HOWIE13

frederick-rea said:


> Pure Magic
> ELISE on Chatham JAN-6AS7G power tubes with Psvane TII Series CV181-Z as drivers listening AMBER RUBARTH -
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
  
  
 Great to hear your are enjoying Elise.
  
 I have always liked the CV181-Z but until I heard them in Elise I never realised their true potential to create excellent sound. Good lookers too.


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA, better keep your head down, with Hurricane Darby heading your way, high winds, high surf, stay safe.


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> @DavidA, better keep your head down, with Hurricane Darby heading your way, high winds, high surf, stay safe.


 
 Thanks for the warning, I have my Fiio X3 and X3ii fully charged so I should be okay for a day or two, but will be using XS since its the most efficient.


----------



## connieflyer

I see it is still a tropical storm, figured by time my old fingers got the message out it would have been upgraded to a hurricane!  Good to be prpared, stay dry!


----------



## hypnos1

frederick-rea said:


> Pure Magic
> ELISE on Chatham JAN-6AS7G power tubes with Psvane TII Series CV181-Z as drivers listening AMBER RUBARTH -
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
  
 So your setup looks something like this, f-r?...........
  

  
 But of course those PsVanes look much better than that in full light, lol!...am sure you can give us a better picture! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...(I did enjoy these drivers...).
  
 And your Chathams certainly are a very good choice...Elise definitely brings out the best in both of these tubes...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!!


----------



## geetarman49

aqsw said:


> Mine cleared customs in two days. Sorry to her about yours.


 
  
  


jazzvinyl said:


> Yes! Poor guy! 37 days...must seem like YEARS, hope it arrives tomorrow!! Sheesh....


 

 thnx, guys.
 it will not arrive tomorrow  ... or several days after for that matter.
 there is an issue ... perhaps several ... & perhaps _not all_ related to elise itself.
 all i know is that it is stuck in a blackhole of sorts.  i think i will ask feliks to intervene via international postal enquiry ... after all our illustrious pm has espoused better trade relations with poland


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> thnx, guys.
> it will not arrive tomorrow  ... or several days after for that matter.
> there is an issue ... perhaps several ... & perhaps _not all_ related to elise itself.
> all i know is that it is stuck in a blackhole of sorts.  i think i will ask feliks to intervene via international postal enquiry ... after all our illustrious pm has espoused better trade relations with poland


 
 I wonder what happened because there were a few from Canada who got their Elise through customs without any issues.
  
 I did read of an impending Postal strike but I thought that was called off.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> But of course those PsVanes look much better than that in full light, lol!...am sure you can give us a better picture!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I did think of buying those drivers more than once but I have far too may drivers now, many of them are amazing in their tone. How would you describe their sound?


----------



## UntilThen

No 2 from John Mayer. I have both Continuum and this album. I really think they are very good. Young and gifted ... then he just kind of retired.


----------



## connieflyer

Well this isn't good news. Two days ago listening to some quiet piano music. Thought I heard a slight hum. Turned off the app turned it back on and still heard the hum did basic troubleshooting including moving Elise to another room and only using the headphones with the power off could still hear the 60 Cycle Hertz hum. Sent a couple of emails to Feliks no reply yet.


----------



## frederick-rea

Hello hypnos1
 Congratulations on this amp ELISE that we all know that you was one main "makers". I found after many years of listening music (Gaelic, Folk, New Age,and so on) that I have now, a new Cd Collection. Even "red book" witch is not (for some) the ultimate in music standards, I think now I heard new instruments and voices from this old collection.
 As we all knows, with a more revealing amp, we have more reveling goods and bads
 Do you know "Binaural+ series from Chesky records?
 I haven't any commercial interests on this label, but what I can say is this is a new way of recording music
  
 from their web page:
_Chesky Records would like to introduce its new Binaural+ Series. Binaural sound has been around for a long time, but until now it was just for headphones and could not be enjoyed on speakers. Our Binaural+ Series recordings sound great on headphones and speakers, and capture the sound of music as you would if you were sitting in front of the band. The Binaural+ Series sessions were recorded in high-resolution 192-kHz/24-bit sound with a special Binaural head (a "dummy" human head with specially calibrated microphones where the ears would be). The headphone market is booming and we think it is important to bring the ultimate in high-resolution sound to this sector of the record business. Now headphone users will hear the same three-dimensional sound and imaging as audiophiles have for the past 25 years with Chesky _
  
 Struggling for new power tubes or/and good drivers is our interest, but good or very good records with less faults are our main and basic objective as well
 Because audiophile records are  essential, this is why I mentioned Amber Rubarth and his record Sessions on the 17th yard
 Have a good listening session


----------



## RedBull

connieflyer said:


> Well this isn't good news. Two days ago listening to some quiet piano music. Thought I heard a slight hum. Turned off the app turned it back on and still heard the hum did basic troubleshooting including moving Elise to another room and only using the headphones with the power off could still hear the 60 Cycle Hertz hum. Sent a couple of emails to Feliks no reply yet.


 
  
 What tubes are you currently using?  have you tried to change the tubes?


----------



## DecentLevi

So I've been comparing some closed headphones between the Elise and Liquid Carbon amp. Incidentally the things that always stood out for me were improvements on dynamics / impact, imaging, smoothness, instrument separation and body on the Elise. The two most noticeable differences seem to be dynamics and body, and by body I mean an overall fuller / weightier sound rather than just more bass. And just to think, my Elise isn't even fully burned in yet. And when you compare using open headphones you can also hear amazing improvements with soundstage on the Elise.
  
 I'm a "lucky one" now because my new Elise is flawless 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@geetarman49 Wow that is totally unprecedented for your Elise to be stuck in customs that long. Something seems extremely unusual. Yeah better try postal inquiry, perhaps from both you and F.A., or even find creative ways to get ahold of the office processing your Elise. If it's still stuck for several weeks I may recommend asking for a replacement using another shipping method, then returning your 'older' Elise should it ever arrive.


----------



## nix177

decentlevi said:


> So I've been comparing some closed headphones between the Elise and Liquid Carbon amp. Incidentally the things that always stood out for me were improvements on dynamics / impact, imaging, smoothness, instrument separation and body on the Elise. The two most noticeable differences seem to be dynamics and body, and by body I mean an overall fuller / weightier sound rather than just more bass. And just to think, my Elise isn't even fully burned in yet. And when you compare using open headphones you can also hear amazing improvements with soundstage on the Elise.
> 
> I'm a "lucky one" now because my new Elise is flawless
> 
> ...


 
 Hey Levi,
  
 Can you send me a PM. I am interested in buying your 6sn7 tubes and adapters.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> I wonder what happened because there were a few from Canada who got their Elise through customs without any issues.
> 
> I did read of an impending Postal strike but I thought that was called off.


 
  
 no --- no postal strike yet, but there have been some complaints about slow mail service. 
  


decentlevi said:


> So I've been comparing some closed headphones between the Elise and Liquid Carbon amp. Incidentally the things that always stood out for me were improvements on dynamics / impact, imaging, smoothness, instrument separation and body on the Elise. The two most noticeable differences seem to be dynamics and body, and by body I mean an overall fuller / weightier sound rather than just more bass. And just to think, my Elise isn't even fully burned in yet. And when you compare using open headphones you can also hear amazing improvements with soundstage on the Elise.
> 
> I'm a "lucky one" now because my new Elise is flawless
> 
> ...


 
  
 this issue does not reside with postal services; it is cbsa (canada border services agency) which is completely independent from postal services.  so far, i've phoned (no one picks up & leaving a message does not yield a callback), mailed in copies of invoice and payment receipts, as well as faxed --- no response to anything.
  
 i've checked about contacting our postal services but they cannot intervene on behalf of recipient so i'll need to ask feliks to submit an enquiry.
  
 blackhole of kandahar, anyone  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I did think of buying those drivers more than once but I have far too may drivers now, many of them are amazing in their tone. How would you describe their sound?


 
  
 Hi UT.
  
 To my shame I haven't got round to reviewing how all my previous favourites compare to the EL3Ns now I have my new tube DAC...the old enemy TIME, alas!... possibly a Winter project.
 But I must admit to not really wanting to work these sockets any more than necessary now...they're temperamental enough already!!...(another Winter project is definitely going to be making some pure silver & single-crystal copper inserts for them...or _trying_ to, anyway... I HATE less-than-perfect connections, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 However, as memory is not quite so good these days, I thought I'd just paste in my original impressions from the very first thread   :
  

  
 As usual, these are findings _as per my own setup_ of course. When I read them once more, I'm further encouraged to see how they perform now...roll on Winter!
  
 I must admit, I wish they were a bit cheaper though!!


----------



## hypnos1

frederick-rea said:


> Hello hypnos1
> Congratulations on this amp ELISE that we all know that you was one main "makers". I found after many years of listening music (Gaelic, Folk, New Age,and so on) that I have now, a new Cd Collection. Even "red book" witch is not (for some) the ultimate in music standards, I think now I heard new instruments and voices from this old collection.
> As we all knows, with a more revealing amp, we have more reveling goods and bads
> Do you know "Binaural+ series from Chesky records?
> ...


 
  
 Thanks f-r...to this day I still can't believe Feliks-Audio listened to my plea, lol!!...don't think anyone else would have - and that doesn't bear thinking about!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Yes, Elise is a very revealing amp indeed - especially at this price point. It sure does justice to well-recorded material...but certainly shows up shortcomings in what used to be thought of as "good"!! Well mastered CDs continue to amaze me in Elise's hands, but hi-res recordings (not all, however!) can be truly jaw-dropping. Chesky does some great work, but haven't yet got round to the Binaural material...you've prompted me to look into it further...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!
  
 ps. Original recording quality is of course of paramount importance, but so too increasingly apparent is..._*the DAC!!*_





...not to mention headphones...and....!!!!!  HAPPY LISTENING...


----------



## connieflyer

@Red Bull, currently the amp is not usable. I was using al3 ends and before that I was using 58/98 + C 3 G's. The hum started about 2-3 days ago I heard it on a quiet piano peace investigated further switched cables switch take out change everything so that I can be sure it was the least that was causing the problem. Finally put it in the other side of the house with only the headphones in plugged in the power cord. And even with the unit powered off the home was still there in the headphone Channel. Definitely the Elise. Sent 3 emails so far to Feliks Lucas and Michael and no reply as of yet thank you for asking.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks f-r...to this day I still can't believe Feliks-Audio listened to my plea, lol!!...don't think anyone else would have - and that doesn't bear thinking about!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I think my Fiio X3  came pre- loaded with a sample of Chesky Binaural material- my memory was that it was awsome-at one point somebody whispers in your right ear and it's so spooky you turn round expecting to see somebody standing next to you.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> I think my Fiio X3  came pre- loaded with a sample of Chesky Binaural material- my memory was that it was awsome-at one point somebody whispers in your right ear and it's so spooky you turn round expecting to see somebody standing next to you.


 

 Yo H13...must be great for effects such as you mentioned. But I do wonder what happens to a "cohesive soundstage" when the 3-D effect is so pronounced?...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> @Red Bull, currently the amp is not usable. I was using al3 ends and before that I was using 58/98 + C 3 G's. The hum started about 2-3 days ago I heard it on a quiet piano peace investigated further switched cables switch take out change everything so that I can be sure it was the least that was causing the problem. Finally put it in the other side of the house with only the headphones in plugged in the power cord. And even with the unit powered off the home was still there in the headphone Channel. Definitely the Elise. Sent 3 emails so far to Feliks Lucas and Michael and no reply as of yet thank you for asking.


 
  
 Strange one cf...sorry to hear of it - the hum is that loud, eh?
 Presumably you've tried different headphones?...and using as pre-amp?
  
 Hopefully you should hear from FA after the weekend...fingers crossed it isn't another Polish holiday, lol!!
  
 Whatever, I do hope it's sorted very soon...CJ


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Yo H13...must be great for effects such as you mentioned. But I do wonder what happens to a "cohesive soundstage" when the 3-D effect is so pronounced?...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That can be problematic with some older recordings too where a singer is recorded in one channel and the accompanying piano in the other.
 You hear them both very clearly, ridiculously so, totally unrealistic.
 Quite a lot of Lieder was recorded this way in the '60's.


----------



## UntilThen

frederick-rea said:


> Do you know "Binaural+ series from Chesky records?
> I haven't any commercial interests on this label, but what I can say is this is a new way of recording music
> 
> Struggling for new power tubes or/and good drivers is our interest, but good or very good records with less faults are our main and basic objective as well
> ...


 
 I bought this album from HD Tracks a few months ago. Have heard it maybe twice and am listening to it again. All in 24/192khz.
  
 The 1st track is 'Storms are on the Ocean' by Amber Rubarth, which you made reference to. A very nice melodious folksy song.
  
 4th track 'Pamafunk' is a funky number. Very lively. 
  
 6th track, 'Bach Toccata and Fugue by Gregory D'Agostino is very revealing.
  
 15th track, 'Mozart Ave Verum' is haunting. The choir is majestic.
  
 16th track, 'Dancing Flute & Drum' is mesmerizing. Drums on the right and flute on the left.
  
 The outstanding thread on all these songs is how revealing the vocals and instruments are. Their placements on the 3D soundstage. You clearly hear some instruments on the left and others on the right. Some are closer to you while others are further back. Instruments separation is amazing with Elise and T1. I'm using EL3N and 7236 tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT.
> 
> To my shame I haven't got round to reviewing how all my previous favourites compare to the EL3Ns now I have my new tube DAC...the old enemy TIME, alas!... possibly a Winter project.
> But I must admit to not really wanting to work these sockets any more than necessary now...they're temperamental enough already!!...(another Winter project is definitely going to be making some pure silver & single-crystal copper inserts for them...or _trying_ to, anyway... I HATE less-than-perfect connections, lol!
> ...


 
 Hi H1,
  
 Thanks for digging up your impressions from the original Elise thread. 'Clarity/cleaness, precise placement and imaging..' These are threads of a good pair of 6SN7. Bass not hitting as hard with the Psvane also seem to further confirm that these are closer to 6SN7 sound than EL3N, ECC31.
  
 Agree with the price being a bit steep at almost AUD$200 a pair for these 'Treasure Audio tubes' as they are called.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @Red Bull, currently the amp is not usable. I was using al3 ends and before that I was using 58/98 + C 3 G's. The hum started about 2-3 days ago I heard it on a quiet piano peace investigated further switched cables switch take out change everything so that I can be sure it was the least that was causing the problem. Finally put it in the other side of the house with only the headphones in plugged in the power cord. And even with the unit powered off the home was still there in the headphone Channel. Definitely the Elise. Sent 3 emails so far to Feliks Lucas and Michael and no reply as of yet thank you for asking.


 

 CF, your amp does indeed have a problem if you're getting hum without even powering up the unit. As hypnos1 said, FA will get back to you, hopefully soon. I think they are aware of the problem. Hope you won't have to live without your Elise for too long. 
  
 My Elise is coming up to 9 months now and it's been bliss all these months since I got it. Still faultless, with the blackest black on quiet passages. I have been lucky indeed with all my tubes and adapters working without hum and distortions. This leaves me with a very good impression of this tube amp. As far as I'm concerned my unit is build with extreme care and attention. Thanks Feliks Audio !!!
  
 However as hypnos1 said, I'm going easy on the sockets. No more tube rolling for me. I wouldn't want to overwork the sockets anymore.  They're good now with EL3N and 7236 in place. Occasionally I'll listen with C3G and 5998. And in the twilight hours, without mentioning it to anyone, I'll spin my 6xEL3N lol. I'm still amazed by 6 EL3Ns in Elise. Beautiful sounding combos. I can't wish for more.


----------



## connieflyer

Even with the current problem with the hum I still think the Elise is a very good piece of equipment. Just because I had a problem with it doesn't mean that it wasn't quality built and designed. I really enjoy it and hope to have it working again soon. I think Feliks audio is a Class Act company and am not concerned with them not taking care of the problem.


----------



## UntilThen

Rare treat. Elise sound really good with EL3N and 7236 with T1 on this CD.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's a shame you did not have
> 
> C3G and 5998
> EL3N and 7236 or Chatham 6520
> ...


 
 For some reason I've never been able to warm up to the C3Gs even with the 5998s. In my systems they just don't hold my interest. EL3Ns are the only drivers I use for now. Combined with the 7236 they are much better. But even better for me is the EL3N/Chatham 6AS7Gs. Other combos may do certain things better, but with EL3N/Chatham 6AS7G I can, and do, listen for days without any urge to try something different. There is almost no recording that sounds less than glorious.
  
 I must admit that when I read about the Melz tubes I get tempted. But the price I'm seeing is $300 for the pair. Not sure I'm looking in the right place. And it's not just the price that deters me. I'm really tired of trying different tubes. It can easily becomes a dark hole of obsession.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Even with the current problem with the hum I still think the Elise is a very good piece of equipment. Just because I had a problem with it doesn't mean that it wasn't quality built and designed. I really enjoy it and hope to have it working again soon. I think Feliks audio is a Class Act company and am not concerned with them not taking care of the problem.


 
 CF:  Really sorry to hear about your problem. Hope it is solved soon.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks PC hope to here from Lukasz this week and get it taken care of. Kind of miss little Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

I have an email from Michał Feliks today, so they are looking into it. Just thought I would let you all know that they are pretty prompt. Will keep you in the loop.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Hi H1,
> 
> Thanks for digging up your impressions from the original Elise thread. 'Clarity/cleaness, precise placement and imaging..' *These are threads of a good pair of 6SN7. Bass not hitting as hard with the Psvane also seem to further confirm that these are closer to 6SN7 sound than EL3N, ECC31.*
> 
> Agree with the price being a bit steep at almost AUD$200 a pair for these 'Treasure Audio tubes' as they are called.


 
  
 Yes indeed UT, the 31s and EL3Ns are quite different animals...with different appeal (vive la difference!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). As mentioned many times before, we are so fortunate with Elise to be able to tailor to different tastes/moods...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


pctazhp said:


> For some reason I've never been able to warm up to the C3Gs even with the 5998s. In my systems they just don't hold my interest. EL3Ns are the only drivers I use for now. Combined with the 7236 they are much better. *But even better for me is the EL3N/Chatham 6AS7Gs.* Other combos may do certain things better, but with EL3N/Chatham 6AS7G I can, and do, listen for days without any urge to try something different. There is almost no recording that sounds less than glorious.
> 
> I must admit that when I read about the Melz tubes I get tempted. But the price I'm seeing is $300 for the pair. Not sure I'm looking in the right place. And it's not just the price that deters me. I'm really tired of trying different tubes. It can easily becomes a dark hole of obsession.


 
  
 Yes pct...this pairing covers most bases extremely well, and although much harder to find at a good price these days, decent examples do pop up now and again...(also labelled Tung Sol/Chatham of course - and also sporting the *copper* posts).
  
 From my own experience of the Melz - although not the uber expensive version - I must say I wouldn't encourage you to spend too much on them...our latest drivers are better options IMHO...(no real need to go further down that rabbit hole methinks, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> I have an email from Michał Feliks today, so they are looking into it. Just thought I would let you all know that they are pretty prompt. Will keep you in the loop.


 
  
 That's great news cf...thanks for letting us know...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Let's hope they can suss out the problem quickly - one day without Elise is one too many LOL!!...GOOD LUCK!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> For some reason I've never been able to warm up to the C3Gs even with the 5998s. In my systems they just don't hold my interest. EL3Ns are the only drivers I use for now. Combined with the 7236 they are much better. But even better for me is the EL3N/Chatham 6AS7Gs. Other combos may do certain things better, but with EL3N/Chatham 6AS7G I can, and do, listen for days without any urge to try something different. There is almost no recording that sounds less than glorious.
> 
> I must admit that when I read about the Melz tubes I get tempted. But the price I'm seeing is $300 for the pair. Not sure I'm looking in the right place. And it's not just the price that deters me. I'm really tired of trying different tubes. It can easily becomes a dark hole of obsession.


 
 EL3N and Chatham 6AS7G is one combination I've been praising all along. What I like to do is switch out my power tubes occasionally and these days it seems to be just between the Chatham 6520 and 7236. Occasionally I'd get to use the other drivers. The change in tone always keeps me captivated. Switch it after a few weeks and you'll hear the change very clearly.
  
 Ultimately, a good recording makes your listening session an unforgettable one. I'm listening to this special CD of Patricia Barber which I bought from Audiophile Reference Recordings in Melbourne. It's now ripped into my harddrive and playback via JRiver Media.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I have an email from Michał Feliks today, so they are looking into it. Just thought I would let you all know that they are pretty prompt. Will keep you in the loop.


 
 That's great CF. Hope it's resolved soon. I hate to be without my Elise for any length of time.


----------



## RedBull

connieflyer said:


> I have an email from Michał Feliks today, so they are looking into it. Just thought I would let you all know that they are pretty prompt. Will keep you in the loop.


 
  
 Hope you still have Ember and can still make you happy, while Elise is 'in treatment'.


----------



## connieflyer

No sold ember a couple of months ago so now I am singing all my music myself. Neighbors are praying my Elise will be repaired soon!


----------



## connieflyer

@David are you getting wet yet? See the tropical storm has made land fall hope all is well.


----------



## connieflyer

Yes @davida even my dog was howling in time with my singing!


----------



## RedBull

connieflyer said:


> No sold ember a couple of months ago so now I am singing all my music myself. Neighbors are praying my Elise will be repaired soon!


 
  
 Good strategy  LOL


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Yes @davida even my dog was howling in time with my singing!


 
  
 Would that be in harmony cf...or in disgust lol?!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Sorry if you already know this, but if you want member's name to be notified you must put the EXACT ref after the @ symbol and then it should appear  below in a box along with similar names, and you need to click on the relevant one - then it should come up highlighted...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS, CJ


----------



## connieflyer

Harmony of course


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Harmony of course


 
  
 That's OK then...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> @David are you getting wet yet? See the tropical storm has made land fall hope all is well.


 
 the storm is more to the south of the big island so here on Oahu there is just a light rain, but enough to make me not want to golf.
  


connieflyer said:


> Yes @davida even my dog was howling in time with my singing!


 
 Must have been a nice two part harmony


----------



## connieflyer

Well, he did sound better than me, glad the storm missed you.


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> Well, he did sound better than me, glad the storm missed you.


 
  
 Storm is still around, really rainy weather right now and the humidity is 98% so just going out on the lanai is like going to the sauna.  There was some flash flooding and some roads have been shut down so the big storm missed but even the edges of it have caused some issues.


----------



## connieflyer

Do not take Elise for a drive in that kind of weather!  Humidity and electrons don't work well together!  Glad the main part of the storm passed you by.  Stay safe.


----------



## frederick-rea

I would like to have some talks regarding power Tung Sol 7236 and stock Svetlana 6n13c with the same drivers
 I received today these Tung Sol but can't say anything about it yet, having perception that they are less "airy" but very clean and 0 hum


----------



## Lord Raven

Finally received my 7236  Thanks to UT for the recommendation, it is amazing sounding tube, too soon to judge it'll take some time to burn in. Perfectly matched pair, I got lucky. Eric Clapton - Eric Clapton & Friends: The Breeze An Appreciation of JJ Cale, sounds so freakingly good that I don't think I need Chatham or 5998 tubes  Another reasonably priced power tube in my collection.
  
 T1 was delivered today but I was sleeping and I did not answer the call of the mail man, damn  It will come next morning now, can't wait to pair the 7236 with T1, the reason I bought it for. To calm it down a bit hehe
  
 I have an exam on 20th August, wish me luck guys, no time for head-fi but still found some time to test the tubes and T1 is almost there  Let me know if there is a new discovery of tubes, I might be interested hehe


----------



## Lord Raven

I just burnt my fingers touching the base of these monsters 7236, don't touch, these are like burning HOT!!! OMG OUCH!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Don't touch the tubes when it's heated up. It is not as hot as the Mullard 6080.

Congrats. You'll love the T1. You heard it at my place.


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> T1 was delivered today but I was sleeping and I did not answer the call of the mail man, damn  It will come next morning now, can't wait to pair the 7236 with T1, the reason I bought it for. To calm it down a bit hehe


 
 So did the T1 arrived? Photos of it with your Elise and some impressions please.


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Finally received my 7236  Thanks to UT for the recommendation, it is amazing sounding tube, too soon to judge it'll take some time to burn in. Perfectly matched pair, I got lucky. Eric Clapton - Eric Clapton & Friends: The Breeze An Appreciation of JJ Cale, sounds so freakingly good that I don't think I need Chatham or 5998 tubes  Another reasonably priced power tube in my collection.
> 
> T1 was delivered today but I was sleeping and I did not answer the call of the mail man, damn  It will come next morning now, can't wait to pair the 7236 with T1, the reason I bought it for. To calm it down a bit hehe
> 
> I have an exam on 20th August, wish me luck guys, no time for head-fi but still found some time to test the tubes and T1 is almost there  Let me know if there is a new discovery of tubes, I might be interested hehe


 
  
 Hey LR...by now you should know that _nothing_ takes precedence over things related to Elise - not even _sleep_, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, am really looking forward to your impressions of the T1 in your system (you've already heard them in @UntilThen's I believe...).
  
 And why your recent statement..."Need a new DAC"?! - hope your Geek is behaving itself....(or have you been tempted with recent mention of _tube_ DACs?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 Good luck indeed for your upcoming exam - a high priority one, I take it? As for new tubes, how about _*you*_ discovering one for us...we need a rest from that LOL!!...(after the exam will do!). CHEERS!


----------



## hypnos1

frederick-rea said:


> Pure Magic
> ELISE on Chatham JAN-6AS7G power tubes with Psvane TII Series CV181-Z as drivers listening AMBER RUBARTH -
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
  
 Yo f-r...this is really good.
  
 Looking around for more examples of binaural, I can't believe the sound this guy gets from his guitar! :


----------



## hypnos1

Well guys...did any of you manage to bag a brown & round-bottom based GEC A1834 (labelled Haltron) yesterday for just $51? Not a bad price for one testing "good", I suspect...(but always helps to know precisely what 'good' means, lol!). Probably worth the punt though, especially as this version is supposed to be the best of the best...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and it was from Poland, no less!


----------



## ostewart

My Elise is at home waiting for me...


----------



## pctazhp

ostewart said:


> My Elise is at home waiting for me...


 
 Welcome to the club))) Keep us informed


----------



## hypnos1

ostewart said:


> My Elise is at home waiting for me...


 
  
 Great news ostewart...now we eagerly await (as do you yourself, no doubt!) your own findings on just how Elise compares to Espressivo...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...plenty of midnight oil may be the order of the day, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

Guys...for anyone interested, I've just posted over at the other thread a very pleasant surprise I had earlier...(don't want to be told off for double-posting, lol!).
  
 But basically it's about my impatience in seeing just how some of my previous favourite drivers compare to the EL3N...in short, my new tube DAC has worked magic on the ECC31s to a degree that has me still in a state of surprise/shock. But it's early days yet, so I need much more testing to get a proper idea of just what's going on...will hopefully be able to post the shoot-out fairly soon....


----------



## UntilThen

My impressions of ECC31 has not changed. Great sounding drivers that cost me $200 a pair NOS.

I consider these amazing drivers for Elise.

C3G
ECC31
European 6N7G
FDD20
EL3N


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> My impressions of ECC31 has not changed. Great sounding drivers that cost me $200 a pair NOS.
> 
> I consider these amazing drivers for Elise.
> 
> ...




The American 6N7G's too  

There are lots of great sounding 6SN7's as well....

.


----------



## UntilThen

Not as fond of my National Union and Philco 6N7Gs. Hardly touch it.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Not as fond of my National Union and Philco 6N7Gs. Hardly touch it.




My "GM Genuine OEM Parts" do fine 

Whatever they really are...

I see the grey glass Tung Sol 6N7G's once in a while but have not heard them.

CORRECTION...I think they are Ken Rad!!!


.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Guys...for anyone interested, I've just posted over at the other thread a very pleasant surprise I had earlier...(don't want to be told off for double-posting, lol!).
> 
> But basically it's about my impatience in seeing just how some of my previous favourite drivers compare to the EL3N...in short, my new tube DAC has worked magic on the ECC31s to a degree that has me still in a state of surprise/shock. But it's early days yet, so I need much more testing to get a proper idea of just what's going on...will hopefully be able to post the shoot-out fairly soon....


 
 Hi H1
 What's your new Tube DAC called?


----------



## ostewart

So got my Elise all set up, it's more tubey sounding than the Espressivo.

But I have hum in one channel, first it was the left channel so I changed the rear tubes and still there, changed the front tubes around and it swapped to the right side,

Do you think I have a dud tube or may it settle whilst burning in?


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> So got my Elise all set up, it's more tubey sounding than the Espressivo.
> 
> But I have hum in one channel, first it was the left channel so I changed the rear tubes and still there, changed the front tubes around and it swapped to the right side,
> 
> Do you think I have a dud tube or may it settle whilst burning in?


 
 Sounds like the tube. Do you have another amp you could try that tube in?


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> So got my Elise all set up, it's more tubey sounding than the Espressivo.
> 
> But I have hum in one channel, first it was the left channel so I changed the rear tubes and still there, changed the front tubes around and it swapped to the right side,
> 
> Do you think I have a dud tube or may it settle whilst burning in?


 
 The tubes are marked so I believe they have been tested before it being shipped to you. 
  
 If you have an extra 'working' 6SN7 around, you could test whether the tube is dud very quickly.


----------



## DecentLevi

If you think the Elise is too tubey sounding, not to fret: there are literally thousands of possible combinations, especially when you factor in non-matched and multiple per socket combinations. This is one versatile amp that can allow you to tune the sound to your heart's content. Depending on your budget of course.
  
 Sometimes I was able to fix a humming tube by tapping / pushing on it a bit, or waiting a few min.


----------



## HOWIE13

Sometimes even just cleaning the pins can stop a tube humming. I think some tubes do tend to hum when they are new. EL3N's I believe can, but I can't say I've noticed this with 6SN7's.
 It's a pain it's humming but it's better to have a humming tube than a humming amp, I guess.


----------



## ostewart

untilthen said:


> The tubes are marked so I believe they have been tested before it being shipped to you.
> 
> If you have an extra 'working' 6SN7 around, you could test whether the tube is dud very quickly.


 
  
 Yeah they have all been tested and come with numbers of where to install them,
  
 I'll have a quick play around this evening after work, but there is definite hum on one side, and changing the front tubes changes the channel of the hum. Don't have another amp to test it on unfortunately, but I'm leaving the amp playing all day today and will report back.


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> Yeah they have all been tested and come with numbers of where to install them,
> 
> I'll have a quick play around this evening after work, but there is definite hum on one side, and changing the front tubes changes the channel of the hum. Don't have another amp to test it on unfortunately, but I'm leaving the amp playing all day today and will report back.


 
 I'm keeping my fingers crossed that hum will go.


----------



## UntilThen

Something to make the hum go away....


----------



## JazzVinyl

howie13 said:


> Hi H1
> What's your new Tube DAC called?




I asked him the same question yesterday, he answered here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5850#post_12753504


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Something to make the hum go away....




These two are cute 

This guy, while not as attractive, maybe plays the harp a little better:



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me6aASTOglE[/VIDEO]


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Hi H1
> What's your new Tube DAC called?


 
  
 Hi H13.
  
 JV has kindly posted a link with details...I'll just add a couple of things. All Mykhailo's products come with a 30-day trial period (from the website) with money back guarantee if not happy, and his DACs have a _*three*_ year warranty!!...what more could you ask for, especially given the price lol?!
  
 And as an example, I'll just show his unit based on the Burr Brown PCM1794 chip - others have slight variations in design, but all have _*three*_ separate transformers!
  

  

  
 Fantastic value-for-money or what?!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


----------



## HOWIE13

jazzvinyl said:


> I asked him the same question yesterday, he answered here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5850#post_12753504


 
 Thanks and cheers, JV.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi H13.
> 
> JV has kindly posted a link with details...I'll just add a couple of things. All Mykhailo's products come with a 30-day trial period (from the website) with money back guarantee if not happy, and his DACs have a _*three*_ year warranty!!...what more could you ask for, especially given the price lol?!
> 
> ...


 
 If it sounds as good as it looks it will be fantastic.
  
 I see they do an R2R chip. I like the NOS sound and once I've sourced a couple of affordable 5998's I'm looking for a new DAC- and this is on the short list. Thanks H1


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> If it sounds as good as it looks it will be fantastic.
> 
> I see they do an R2R chip. I like the NOS sound and once I've sourced a couple of affordable 5998's I'm looking for a new DAC- and this is on the short list. Thanks H1


 
  
 My pleasure H13....all I can say is that I'm over the moon with my Sabre-based unit, so I see no reason why the others shouldn't be great also (Mykhailo himself loves his Burr Brown-based DAC!).
  
 Certainly got to be near the top of the shortlist IMHO...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...and good luck with the 5998s (shame you didn't bag that 'good' $51 best of the best GEC I mentioned recently - with a bit of luck a similar one might just pop up in the future, lol! I simply cannot praise these tubes enough...and they're *BRITISH!!*...).


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> My pleasure H13....all I can say is that I'm over the moon with my Sabre-based unit, so I see no reason why the others shouldn't be great also (Mykhailo himself loves his Burr Brown-based DAC!).
> 
> Certainly got to be near the top of the shortlist IMHO...
> 
> ...


 
 Yes that was a good buy but I'm hopeless with auctions- I never seem to bid enough!
 Anyway there are some T-S around and I would prefer to buy a pair together.
 Won't be long. I've some 7236 on the way.
 Slowly but surely........


----------



## ostewart

The hum seems to have disappeared, I shall see if it returns


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> The hum seems to have disappeared, I shall see if it returns


 
 Must be the harp twins.


----------



## hypnos1

ostewart said:


> The hum seems to have disappeared, I shall see if it returns


 
  
 That's good news ostewart - new tubes can indeed sometimes suffer from this affliction at first...fingers crossed this is one of those tubes, lol!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to this combination now. Surprised I have kept the ECC31 in hibernation for so long. I do like them a lot paired with Chatham 6520. Maybe I'm keeping them for posterity.


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> The hum seems to have disappeared, I shall see if it returns


 
 Hope you can now enjoy the music.


----------



## ostewart

Listening to a bit of Dream Theater on my TH-500rp's, this amp is definitely something special...


----------



## JazzVinyl

This fellow: Trace Bundy - is coming to Sydney and London in the coming months. I have seen him a number of times and have tickets to see him again, in November:



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOoMWnLxHH4[/VIDEO]



He is well worth the effort to go see...

A chance for UT and H1 to both take him in...

http://www.tracebundy.com/shows/

Cheers...

Oh, and BTW, his CD's have incredible SQ....


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm listening to this combination now. Surprised I have kept the ECC31 in hibernation for so long. I do like them a lot paired with Chatham 6520. Maybe I'm keeping them for posterity.


 
 Or to support you when you enter and old age home))) http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-NOS-MULLARD-ECC31-CV1285-TUBES-VALVE-NIB-NEW-/122030078576?hash=item1c698f3a70:g:IsAAAOSwnNBXagWw


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> This fellow: Trace Bundy - is coming to Sydney and London in the coming months. I have seen him a number of times and have tickets to see him again, in November:
> 
> He is well worth the effort to go see...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sounds pretty good. One man one guitar to rule the world. AUD$30 to see him perform on the 12th Aug at the Factory Theatre. I think I will go and see him perform.
  
 Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Or to support you when you enter and old age home))) http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-NOS-MULLARD-ECC31-CV1285-TUBES-VALVE-NIB-NEW-/122030078576?hash=item1c698f3a70:g:IsAAAOSwnNBXagWw


 

 Wow my ECC31s has appreciated 100%. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Keep it another 6 months and it might double again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You have to admit my pair is just as gorgeous. These sound silky smooth and buttery warm. You will simply melt in it. It's like fine exquisite chocolate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Don't get me wrong, they are crystal clear with details and exceptional soundstage too. Violins has that zing. It's more than 3D....


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Wow my ECC31s has appreciated 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo UT...keep a hold of them - and not just as an investment, lol...the more I hear them with my new tube DAC, the more heartbroken I'm becoming about my beloved EL3Ns! My ECC31s _*never*_ sounded this good (which is saying something, as they were GREAT!), even though my previous DAC was no slouch. Obviously, another prime example of system synergy at work here - the tube DAC's implementation of the Sabre ES9018 chip, plus the Tesla E88CCs must be doing far more for the Mullards than the EL3Ns, alas! There are odd moments when the EL3N's extra warmth and intimacy are enticing - especially on some female vocals - but the 31s are now bringing out even more detail, with even more 'air' and separation than ever before.
  
 This is going to take me much longer than I thought to get a full and final assessment between these drivers - for the first time ever, I may just have to consider choosing tubes to match the music/recording...something I was (and still am!) very reluctant to do, given my amp's sockets punishment LOL! (I suppose I could always make myself some 'super' socket saver adapters, but I hate adding any extras to the signal line...).
  
 And so, UT, in the event of you possibly upgrading your already very good DAC in the future (but would certainly recommend a _*tube*__*d*_ one!), I repeat...KEEP THOSE ECC31s!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Yo UT...keep a hold of them - and not just as an investment, lol...the more I hear them with my new tube DAC, the more heartbroken I'm becoming about my beloved EL3Ns! My ECC31s _*never*_ sounded this good (which is saying something, as they were GREAT!), even though my previous DAC was no slouch. Obviously, another prime example of system synergy at work here - the tube DAC's implementation of the Sabre ES9018 chip, plus the Tesla E88CCs must be doing far more for the Mullards than the EL3Ns, alas! There are odd moments when the EL3N's extra warmth and intimacy are enticing - especially on some female vocals - but the 31s are now bringing out even more detail, with even more 'air' and separation than ever before.
> 
> This is going to take me much longer than I thought to get a full and final assessment between these drivers - for the first time ever, I may just have to consider choosing tubes to match the music/recording...something I was (and still am!) very reluctant to do, given my amp's sockets punishment LOL! (I suppose I could always make myself some 'super' socket saver adapters, but I hate adding any extras to the signal line...).
> 
> ...


 

 H1, glad you're back in the swing of tube rolling, no doubt spurred on by your new tube DAC. I'm quite happy with my NAD d1050 (which has a British sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cirrus Logic chip) and any attempt to change it will surely have me banished to the dog's house as this is the wife's gift. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Problem is settling on a set of drivers because I've a great many that sound amazing. Take this Five 6N7G brown base for instance. I think it's a cross between ECC31 and 6N7G, like a cute Cavoodle, basically a mongrel lol but the sound will put the pure bred to shame.


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> Listening to a bit of Dream Theater on my TH-500rp's, this amp is definitely something special...


 
 Stewart, we've been saying that for the past one year, that she is special. Anyway, looking forward to your review.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1

No frantic E88CC rolling yet?


----------



## JazzVinyl

oskari said:


> hypnos1
> 
> No frantic E88CC rolling yet?




6DJ8, ECC88. 6922/E88CC - must be some 'NOS exotics' out there 

It Never ENDS...


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> No frantic E88CC rolling yet?


 
  
 Give us a break, O 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...was supposed to be taking things easy now, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...between you and @UntilThen, I could just be ending up in the dog house myself (except having no pooch, it would probably be a case of "Swims with fishes"!!!).
  
 Luckily, I found the Teslas to be my favourite of the family from my LittleDot days...and so...????!!!! (I know, excuses excuses! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## DavidA

hypnos1 said:


> Give us a break, O
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice early morning giggle there, FWIW, I like my dogs house, its the bed my GF and I share


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Give us a break, O :evil: ...was supposed to be taking things easy now, lol! :wink_face: ...between you and @UntilThen
> , I could just be ending up in the dog house myself (except having no pooch, it would probably be a case of "Swims with fishes"!!!).
> 
> Luckily, I found the Teslas to be my favourite of the family from my LittleDot days...and so...????!!!! (I know, excuses excuses!  ).




LOL...

Koi Boy


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Give us a break, O
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh my! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 We like to enable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There are lots of Heerlen fans and the Telefunkens are sublime. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 P.S. Do yourself a favour and don't listen to me.


----------



## DavidA

oskari said:


> Oh my!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I vote for Telefunken CCa


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Wow my ECC31s has appreciated 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Considering that you guys in Australia have to walk around upside down all day, it's not surprising you are experiencing more that 3 dimensions


----------



## UntilThen

Pct you're looking at it the wrong way. This is how the world map should be.


----------



## UntilThen

Today's tube is Fivre 6A6. This is a beautiful sounding driver in Elise. It has that clear sweet tone, less warm than ECC31 or the Fivre 6N7G brown base. This is what makes Elise so special. 6N7G and 6A6 (basically similar sounding to 6N7G) sounds just right in it. It is more forward sounding. The band seems closer to you. Soundstage is definitely wider than 6SN7. On my setup, there's not a trace of hum or distortion. The drivers performing like they were made for Elise.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Mimby has arrived, and it works


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> Mimby has arrived, and it works


 

 Yeah? How does it sound. I have one at home and it belongs to my son. Maybe I should pinch it and have a listen. Compare it to my NAD d1050. 
  
 Oh wait... he has the Modi 2 Uber and you have the new Modi Multibit. Go on, give us the low down.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Yeah? How does it sound. I have one at home and it belongs to my son. Maybe I should pinch it and have a listen. Compare it to my NAD d1050.
> 
> Oh wait... he has the Modi 2 Uber and you have the new Modi Multibit. Go on, give us the low down.




I'd rather let it run for 24 hours before divulging too much. I'm coming from a 2009 DAC that has thousands of hours in it (maybe). 

What I was looking to get was an improvement in sound stage, instrument seperation / air / distance between instruments. Maybe a punchier bass was also desired...

Let's let run a bit before seeing if it delivers.

Looked on Amazon at your NAD dac, and it got 5 stars from 100% of all purchasers...which is pretty impressive!


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> I'd rather let it run for 24 hours before divulging too much. I'm coming from a 2009 DAC that has thousands of hours in it (maybe).
> 
> What I was looking to get was an improvement in sound stage, instrument seperation / air / distance between instruments. Maybe a punchier bass was also desired...
> 
> ...


 
 I think you are right on to let it run for 24 hours before starting to draw any conclusions. That seems to be the consensus with respect to all the Schiit multi-bits. My Bimby is on 24/7.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Today's tube is Fivre 6A6. This is a beautiful sounding driver in Elise. It has that clear sweet tone, less warm than ECC31 or the Fivre 6N7G brown base. This is what makes Elise so special. 6N7G and 6A6 (basically similar sounding to 6N7G) sounds just right in it. It is more forward sounding. The band seems closer to you. Soundstage is definitely wider than 6SN7. On my setup, there's not a trace of hum or distortion. The drivers performing like they were made for Elise.


 
 For what it's worth, in no particular order, these are the drivers I have listened to the most in the Elise:
  
 Sylvania 6SN7-GTB
 Sylvania 6SN7-WTB
 JAN RCA 6N7
 Fivre 6N7G
 Visseaux 6A6G
 Phillips EL3N
 Tungsol 6SN7-GTB
  
 I realize the 6N7Gs and 6A6G are not considered the best of their respective types.
  
 I rank the Sylvania 6SN7-GTB ($45 for the pair) at the very top. EL3N and 6A6G tie for second. The others are ok, but nothing special.
  
 The main issue I have with the 6A6G is it seems to have a little too much bass energy for the HD800S.
  
 The Sylvania 6SN7-GTB is in my experience a real sleeper. It is clean, bottom to top, has just the right amount of "sparkle", great soundstage and instrument placement, good dynamic punch and highly musical.


----------



## Lord Raven

I made a serious mistake  I am never going to touch a metal base tube, it is like 100 C or something.
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> Don't touch the tubes when it's heated up. It is not as hot as the Mullard 6080.
> 
> Congrats. You'll love the T1. You heard it at my place.


 
  
 No pictures, hehe I sold both my lenses to afford a Beyerdynamic T1  haha 
  


untilthen said:


> So did the T1 arrived? Photos of it with your Elise and some impressions please.


----------



## Lord Raven

LOL You are absolutely right, even with the exam on the calendar, I am always treating myself with a song or an album 
  
 Well, I am tempted to try something new in the DAC realm. I am still assessing the T1 in my system. This is the serial number above 20k which is regarded some what different to earlier T1s. This is a bit warmer sounding, the issue of having sss sound on female vocals is a bit less on this. Also, trying to let my ears get used to the T1 sound. I listen to Jazz a lot, for me the sss sound has no issue, but recently I moved into female vocals domain, now I need to be worried about it. I bought the first T1 which was an earlier serial number, I returned it and got this one. I am liking it so far. I am not a bass head, so I like the T1's bass, semi open has a mod where people put deadening material behind the driver to get some more bass and warm the sound a bit, but I don't think I need to go that route at this time. The Sabre DAC is struggling with the T1, it is brighter and the T1 is amplifying the effect and making me jump out of my seat at times, for example, I listened to Rebecca Pigeon and it felt like someone was dragging a piece of chalk on the black board  WWIII with people with T1 LOL
  
 This is so early for me to conclude something about T1, honestly, the sound stage is amazing, the revealing character has revealed a lot of flaws in the recordings and the system itself. Which is one of the reasons I wanted to try a new DAC. I am throwing SACD and DSD albums at my DAC to present a warmer sound, Patricia Barber - Companion feels like I am there with her. It is a great feeling over Sennheiser HD600. I wish HD800 had made its way to my rig, it was unfortunately lost in the mail. What a pity. HD600 is special in it's own way, not as resolving, has a slight mid bass hump, and the main thing is sound stage where it lags behind. For now, T1 is all I need. My end game.
  
 Tubes I am using are EL3N and 5998 for T1  I am so glad I have a T1 now, it is marvellous sounding. Don't take me wrong, I am new to it's sound atm.
  
 Exam is CISCO CCNA  I am moving into networking hehe IP Transmission is my end game, I have to learn it one day or the other, wish me luck!!!!!
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hey LR...by now you should know that _nothing_ takes precedence over things related to Elise - not even _sleep_, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> I'd rather let it run for 24 hours before divulging too much. I'm coming from a 2009 DAC that has thousands of hours in it (maybe).
> 
> What I was looking to get was an improvement in sound stage, instrument seperation / air / distance between instruments. Maybe a punchier bass was also desired...
> 
> ...


 

 This is quite a good review of the NAD although he mentioned the chip used wrongly. It is the Cirrus chip. Quite happy with this mid-fi DAC. 
 http://headphone.guru/nad-d1050-review/
  
 I've heard the Yiggy DAC at the Sydney Can Jam meet but it was also the first time I heard the Stax SR-009 and 007 with Blue Hawaii electrostatic amp. The whole system sounds amazing so I can't really tell if  it was the Yiggy that wow me or the headphone and amp, probably all of it as a whole. On top of that, he had the NAD M51 on stand by at the meet. It is not connected. !!! I want to pinch that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Anyhoo, yeah take your time. Let it burn in and then share your thoughts.


----------



## UntilThen

> *The Sabre DAC is struggling with the T1*, it is brighter and the T1 is amplifying the effect and making me jump out of my seat at times, for example, I listened to Rebecca Pigeon and it felt like someone was dragging a piece of chalk on the black board  *WWIII with people with T1 LOL*


 
 Yes you just started WW3 here by criticizing the Sabre DAC.... Sabre tooth tigers will come after you !!!


----------



## UntilThen

This is the definitive female voice btw. My benchmark. Just beautiful.


----------



## UntilThen

Or this... LR more scratching on chalk board for you.
  
 ..but this is truly beautiful.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok one more ... just because it sounds so good on my T1 with Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

Eva Cassidy had a wonderful voice, shame she left us so soon. Have most of the hum gone, re flowed a couple of solder joints, still have some hum using as a pr-amp but not to bad.  The El3n's seem to have more hum (my tubes) tried the 6 pack but the hum was very prevalent  switched to the TS 5998's and 6n7g"s (thank you again UT). Much less hum so will stay with these for awhile.  Wondered if C3G's and 5998"s or 5998A's are compatible?


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps a little guitar to relax you..


----------



## UntilThen

That's good news CF !!!
  
 Hum in the 6 packs is usually due to contacts ... tubes not seating properly. However no matter. You have a lot of very good sounding tubes.
  
 C3G and 5998 sounded gorgeous to me. Crystal clear and vibrant sound. Try that and then try C3G with the 5998A. These are all compatible. Then tell me how the C3G and 5998A sounds.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks UT, will try them later, will try reseat the EL3's also, hoped that was it, hate the sockets, some of my favorite tubes.  A little Jesse Sykes.


----------



## UntilThen

Love both the Tommy Emmanuel and Jesse Sykes videos thanks. Got inspired by you and I've C3G and 5998 running now with my modded HD650. Just such a lovely tone. Vibrant and electric.


----------



## UntilThen

I'll spin another Tommy's number for you.


----------



## JazzVinyl

This is a good one for DAC testing....lots of hand percussion and minor vocals that come and go....there is quite a difference in how this sounds on the new DAC compared to the old one::


[VIDEO] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uE3HfAqLtY8 [/VIDEO]



LR will immediately appreciate this one.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'll spin another Tommy's number for you.




 Oh wow!!! The Sultans are back raising the rafters tonight here in Scottsdale. It's the perfect antidote I needed for massive injuries suffered from a severe act of self abuse watching our two national political conventions over the past two weeks


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> This is a good one for DAC testing....lots of hand percussion and minor vocals that come and go....there is quite a difference in how this sounds on the new DAC compared to the old one::
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Cool recording and welcome to the glorious world of multibit. We need to fight for equal time with the tube DACs around here


----------



## UntilThen

This is the best version of Sultans. As for the tube DACs, they ain't heard my tube turntable yet.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Cool recording and welcome to the glorious world of multibit. We need to fight for equal time with the tube DACs around here




It's been running for 5 hours now and it's really sweetening up!!!

Hearing so much more than I ever heard before that I first thought "somethings wrong". Went back to old DAC and thought, yeah, that's the way it should sound, then realized the MultiBit retrieves a whole thick section in the midrange that....gulp...isn't there in the old DAC??? There, I guess, but deeply buried...

Toob DAC, Schnoob DAC !!!!!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Wow I am playing this album now on TT and it's magic !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 with modded HD650, Elise with C3G and 5998.
  
 It's been weeks since I use the turntable.


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. Looks like your Dire Staits video is banned here in the states ((( Must be trying to protect us Old Geezers )))
  
 Anyway, I think we need to slow things down a little with this sweet goodnight lullaby:


----------



## UntilThen

Goodnight Phil. I'm listening to my Dire Straits LPs.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Today's tube is Fivre 6A6. This is a beautiful sounding driver in Elise. It has that clear sweet tone, less warm than ECC31 or the Fivre 6N7G brown base. This is what makes Elise so special. 6N7G and 6A6 (basically similar sounding to 6N7G) sounds just right in it. It is more forward sounding. The band seems closer to you. Soundstage is definitely wider than 6SN7. On my setup, there's not a trace of hum or distortion. The drivers performing like they were made for Elise.


 
  
 My Ken-Rad 6A6's were a bit paradoxical.
 As drivers they were cool sounding, clear and detailed, not warm but sweet in the treble.
 As power tubes they were warm sounding.
 Like you there was no hum heard.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> My Ken-Rad 6A6's were a bit paradoxical.
> As drivers they were cool sounding, clear and detailed, not warm but sweet in the treble.
> As power tubes they were warm sounding.
> Like you there was no hum heard.


 

 Your Ken-Rad is exactly how I hear my Fivre 6A6. As drivers, clear and detailed and as powers.... well I have not use it as power tubes before. So I am curious and thought I might try it since you mention it. I wanted to pair it with another tube to contra it, so I chose the EL3N. If 6A6 is clear and sweet, EL3N warm and lushness will pair well with it.
  
 Boy was I surprised at how wonderful it sounded. Sound is exquisitely sweet with just the right degree of lushness. All the desirable attributes are present. Organic, wide soundstage, 3D and good instruments separation. I was listening for hum or any noise as there are 4 big white marshmallows. The biggest you will ever see. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well it is pitch black and silent with no song playing. Very good sign that this pair works fine on Elise. Volume needs one notch up but it's no biggie, still ample gain and certainly loud enough without shattering my ears. 
  
 A pic for you.
  

  
 ... and I do like this song... very much


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Your Ken-Rad is exactly how I hear my Fivre 6A6. As drivers, clear and detailed and as powers.... well I have not use it as power tubes before. So I am curious and thought I might try it since you mention it. I wanted to pair it with another tube to contra it, so I chose the EL3N. If 6A6 is clear and sweet, EL3N warm and lushness will pair well with it.
> 
> Boy was I surprised at how wonderful it sounded. Sound is exquisitely sweet with just the right degree of lushness. All the desirable attributes are present. Organic, wide soundstage, 3D and good instruments separation. I was listening for hum or any noise as there are 4 big white marshmallows. The biggest you will ever see.
> 
> ...




  
 That's very reassuring for me UT 'cos I only listen to Classical yet my ears still seem to hear the music pretty much the same as most others.
  
 I think I used both the stock 6SN7's and C3G's as drivers when I used the 6A6 for powers and, similar to your own EL3N's, background was silent and Elise just needed a notch up in volume-but sounded none the worse for that.
  
 I like your photo-even the big adapters match up and don't look out of place.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> H1, glad you're back in the swing of tube rolling, no doubt spurred on by your new tube DAC. I'm quite happy with my NAD d1050 (which has a British sound
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey UT....this DAC of mine is showing just what "pedigree" really means, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...and just why those (ridiculously) high prices for the 31/32/CV181!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but given the performance/cost ratio of the 'mongrels', it's probably no contest...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  


oskari said:


> Oh my!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey O...the only 'enabling' here would be to convince my better half to stick my Koi in the oven _before_ pushing me in the pond LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...ie. _*ex*__*-'Koi Boy'*_, @JazzVinyl...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 So for once my ears are indeed deaf to you, mon ami!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
  


davida said:


> I vote for Telefunken CCa


 
  
 TF CCas, DA?...you'll be stating pinched-waist Amperexes next, lol!...please see above post!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


>


 
  
 Oops - no quote come up...never mind!
  
 But I do understand your present findings re. the Sabre DAC. So much depends on its implementation and all the rest of one's system - especially the cans! - as to the degree of treble 'excess'. With any luck your T1s will settle down a bit more with further burn-in...I do hope so...(ears also can adjust more in time, lol!). Otherwise yes, it's either go for a different chip-based DAC - perhaps with toobs, lol!! - or have a go with the T1 mod. Good luck whichever course you take 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...the T1s were almost made for Elise...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


pctazhp said:


> Cool recording and welcome to the glorious world of multibit.* We need to fight for equal time with the tube DACs around here *


 
  
 Agreed, pct...I propose _everyone_ has _both, _so we can enlighten the whole of head-fi land a good bit further LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but _please_ don't send me the bill!...or listen to @Oskari or @DavidA's tube recommendations unless recent Lottery winners!!).
  


jazzvinyl said:


> It's been running for 5 hours now and it's really sweetening up!!!
> 
> Hearing so much more than I ever heard before that I first thought "somethings wrong". Went back to old DAC and thought, yeah, that's the way it should sound, then realized the MultiBit retrieves a whole thick section in the midrange that....gulp...isn't there in the old DAC??? There, I guess, but deeply buried...
> 
> *Toob DAC, Schnoob DAC !!!!!!!! *


 
  
 Aaahhh JV...yet another scenario for WW III within hi-fi land methinks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Probably a niche market though, so there shouldn't be _too_ many casualties!!
  
 My reasoning is something along the lines related to our preference for _*tube*_ amps over _*SS *_ones lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...with possibly a fair degree of masochism thrown in, considering the various trials and tribulations encountered already with just the amp!!!
  
 But at least in my own case, I'm able to compare side-by-side with a highly regarded SS DAC using the same SABRE chip, and the toobed one is definitely superior...no question...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but there do certainly seem to be significant advances being made in the SS realm, so interesting times ahead (but for me, THIS IS IT..._*hopefully!!!*_). Good luck with your own new DAC...


----------



## Spork67

Hello all.
 I'm interested in delving into the world of tube amps.
 $699 is a fair chunk of money - but if it's the first and last tube amp I buy it's probably money well spent.
 I see a few people in this thread consider this amp to be their end game. Is it really that good?
 Also, are the "upgraded drivers" worth the extra $140, or am I better off getting the stock ones and sourcing my own aftermarket ones, based on suggestions of people in this thread.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Spork,
  
 Welcome to Elise land. You wouldn't be the first to ask this question. I ask that myself 9 months ago. I was debating between the La Figaro 339 and Elise. On the advice of a head-fier who told me to take a punt on Elise, I did and hope for the best. Like everyone I've heard, who has since gone on to buy Elise, we have been very happy with what we hear. 
  
 It's probably the only tube amp you need with even quality headphones like HD800 or Beyer T1. Sure you can get better but you'll probably be spending twice or 3 times as much. 
  
 Elise has that liquid warm and glow. Attack is precise. Sustain has the correct duration and decay is perfectly timed. If there's one attribute that I am allowed to describe Elise, it would be a fast transient response. It's agile and fast. The sound it produce is totally engaging. 
  
 I have not heard of anyone going for the updated drivers. You should just go for the stock tubes and buy new ones later. Listen to the stock tubes first. They are pretty good. Later, you have a great choice of various 6SN7s as drivers and 6AS7, 6080, 5998 & 7236 as power tubes. Or if you're adventurous, try some of the tubes we're using. 
  
 All the best,
 UT


----------



## connieflyer

Sunday relaxation


----------



## JazzVinyl

Otis Taylor:




[VIDEO] https://youtube.com/watch?v=igi-4xDgXFA [/VIDEO]


----------



## connieflyer

Great Combination of voices


----------



## JazzVinyl

I am 21 hours in on the new Modi MultiBit DAC. It has changed a LOT since out of the box. There is absolutely no doubt that it needs some hours on it to sound it's best. I thought it sounded impossibly bright and it had distortions/grain in the upper bass right out of the box. These two flaws pretty much cleared up after an hour or two but I still detected bass grain up until I left it decoding lossless files all night, as I slept.

This morning, it definitely sounded better, grainy areas had cleared up, the treble was smoother, the bass punchier. 

Great, so I am at 21 hours in, and it occurred to me that it now sounded more like the 2009 V-DAC than it did right out of the box. 

I do not stream music off the internet. Because, my favorite record label, ECM does not allow their stuff to be streamed as a protest to the super low rates streaming services want to pay the label (and hence the musicians) per play.

So...my 160 gig iPod Classics (I have three) store all my CD's (and a few hundred LP's I have recorded to digital) in lossless form.

I use the Pure I-20 dock to fetch the digital stream, to send to a DAC.

The Pure I-20 also has its own DAC built in that uses a Cirrus Logic chip. It also has co-axial out and an optical out. The Pure I-20 sends the signal through all three outputs when you play music.

The new DAC sounding so much like the old DAC, made me decide to A-B-C them to see how close (or not) all three DAC's are.

The V-DAC was criticized for it lousy wall wart power supply when it was introduced. So I built my own Linear 12v DC supply for it shortly after purchasing it. It did sound better on the Linear Supply than it did using the crummy wall wart. The V-DAC uses a Burr-Brown DAC that was all the rage when released. 

I used a 3 in, 1 out switcher to switch between the three DAC's (Internal Cirrus Logic Pure I-20 DAC, the V-DAC, and the Schiit Modi MultiBit DAC). 

First we went into Elise who had 5998's and Ken Rad VT-231's as its tube compliment.
Headphones are Sennheiser 580 w/aftermarket silver cabling. 

Then, we eliminated the Elise and went straight to the SS preamp that feeds a high quality Acoustat all FET transistor 120 watt amp that drives my DIY mini monitor speakers that I use for near field listening.

When I first tried the test via Elise, I was very surprised there was little difference in all three DAC's. Schiit had a slightly better sound stage depth. V-DAC had a better treble and was smoother in the bass region (Schiit has a bigger attack on bass notes but the luster falls away after the attack and actually sounds thinner overall compared to V-DAC). The biggest surprise was Schitt compared to the internal Pure I-20 Cirrus Logic based DAC. Here, the Schiit and internal I-20 DAC sounded more like each other than the Schiit vs V-DAC, except the Cirrus Logic DAC has a tighter punchier bass, consistently, on all music genres.

Okay, now we moved on to the 3 DAC's feeding the SS preamp/amp/speakers and this time I had my gal listen in. I explained what a DAC is, and what I was doing, A-B-C comparing the three DAC's. She had no idea which DAC was which. So she had no pre-conceived notion of one being "better" than the other. 

I saw there was a tiny difference between Schiit and V-DAC, just a smidgeon better sound stage presentation. V-DAC sounded smoother overall via speakers 
Internal Pure DAC also sounded the "same" except a bit more bass compared to the other two DAC's. 

All three DAC's sounded very very similar from an actual note for note interpretation of the Ones and Zeros presented to it. All three DAC's sounded damn good each has a SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT CHARACTER but none lay the others to waste. 

The Cirrus Logic DAC and the Analog Devices DAC in Schiit sound almost exactly the same the Cirrus Logic has thicker bass the Schiit has a sharper attack on some midrange notes. But it's REAL REAL CLOSE... 

All of the above was impressions with me switching the DAC's and knowing which was which....

For the final test I went back to Elise/Sennheisers, turned my chair away from the rack and had my gal go behind me and punch a button so that it was unknown to me, which DAC was running. I studied carefully a well recorded ECM artist tune that I know very intimately.

Then had her switch to another unknown to me DAC, and restart the track. 

And again...third DAC auditioned the same track.

At one point I accused her of trying to trick me by not actually changing DAC's (but she had).

I then had her restart the track again, and choose her own sequence of A-B-C or C-A-B or whatever she wanted, every sixty seconds she switched. 

At the end I selected a DAC I thought was best.

To my great surprise I chose the internal Pure I-20 DAC with the Cirrus Logic chip. I really thought this one was the Schiit MultiBit and that I was hearing an enhanced sound stage and sharper note attacks, etc...

Not at all what I expected to happen.

When I pay strict attention and LISTEN for it knowing when the Schiit is playing....I think I can hear the 'sharper note attacks, and enhanced sound stage' but in the blind test, it's not as apparent as you might think.

Tech info:
Schiit was using 75 ohm co-axial in
V-DAC used the optical in
Pure I-20 sent internal DAC analog straight out to a pair of RCA cables...


What do you think, guys?







.


----------



## DavidA

@JazzVinyl, I have a hard time telling the difference between my Modi2uber (4490 chip) and my Bifrost MB (Bimby), they sound so much alike but when I heard the Bifrost 4490 and compared it with the Bimby, the 4490 was the better sounding to me, a more analogue sound is the best way to describe it.  I feel that the multi-bit craze is over rated but it may just be that my hearing and system doesn't show it in its best light.
  
 I also have a UD-301 which I like better than the Bimby, its a touch more dynamic and extended, but it also can get sibilant with some tracks and depends on your hearing so can't make a solid recommendation of it.
  
 The other DAC that I have is a Teac AH-01 which is DAC/headphone/speaker amp, its similar to the UD-301 but not as extended and it doesn't have a line out so can't use it with other headphone amps.


----------



## pctazhp

@JazzVinyl. Seems to me your un-sighted test probably produced the most reliable results. However, your results could have been affected if the three choices involved different volume levels. I understand that if all other things are equal, people will tend to prefer the loudest choice.
  
 We don't normally listen blindfolded so I guess the DAC that produces the most long term enjoyment for you is your best choice.
  
 I have never heard the HD580, but I know my HD800S is much more revealing than my HD598. However, I have no idea if a different headphone would have made any difference.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> @JazzVinyl. Seems to me your un-sighted test probably produced the most reliable results. However, your results could have been affected if the three choices involved different volume levels. I understand that if all other things are equal, people will tend to prefer the loudest choice.
> 
> We don't normally listen blindfolded so I guess the DAC that produces the most long term enjoyment for you is your best choice.
> 
> I have never heard the HD580, but I know my HD800S is much more revealing than my HD598. However, I have no idea if a different headphone would have made any difference.


 
 I think a more resolving headphone might have made a difference, when I'm trying to evaluate DAC's I tend to use my HD700/800/T1 and RS2e since these are the most resolving headphones that I have.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> @JazzVinyl. Seems to me your un-sighted test probably produced the most reliable results. However, your results could have been affected if the three choices involved different volume levels. I understand that if all other things are equal, people will tend to prefer the loudest choice.
> 
> We don't normally listen blindfolded so I guess the DAC that produces the most long term enjoyment for you is your best choice.
> 
> I have never heard the HD580, but I know my HD800S is much more revealing than my HD598. However, I have no idea if a different headphone would have made any difference.




Right, agree about volume levels and fortunately these three outputs are the same or really really close. So we didn't feel volume was a factor. 

And agree that it is possible that the 800S could make a world of difference. I had 598's in the past, they are not the same animal as the 580's which preceded and I believe are closer, to the 600's in sound signature. But it could be the devil is in the details that the 800S would reveal that the 580's do not. 

I am not returning the Mimby, will keep it. Maybe it will gather more powers with more run time, or maybe I will one day get 800S's 

I am going to a meet in August and the 800S will be there as will the T1's and I promised to being the Mimby, so I will get a chance then to see if Mimby resolves beyond my phones' capabilities.

I do recommend the blind tests, to all. If you have someone to do the switching for you, it does make things a lot more interesting....not knowing which piece of gear your listening to. 

If I had of wagered before the test...I would have lost! I was sure I could have picked out the new DAC....

.


----------



## JazzVinyl

davida said:


> I think a more resolving headphone might have made a difference, when I'm trying to evaluate DAC's I tend to use my HD700/800/T1 and RS2e since these are the most resolving headphones that I have.




Yep, could be it! Get to audition 800S and T1 towards the end of August. So we shall see what happens...




.


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> Right, agree about volume levels and fortunately these three outputs are the same or really really close. So we didn't feel volume was a factor.
> 
> And agree that it is possible that the 800S could make a world of difference. I had 598's in the past, they not the same animal as the 580's which I believe are closer to the 600's in sound signature. But it could be the devil is in the details that the 800S would reveal that the 580's do not.
> 
> ...


 
 From my experience, the choice between the T1 and HD800S really comes down to personal preference, so I hope you can give both a good listen.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> From my experience, the choice between the T1 and HD800S really comes down to personal preference, so I hope you can give both a good listen.




I will but I have long admired Sennheiser.....glad you like your 800S's...can't wait to hear them for myself.


----------



## UntilThen

JV, try the HD800 too. You might like it over the HD800S. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I heard both and I pefer the original. Sounded clearer to me. The emphasis on the bass of the 'S' negates the highs a 'little' ... just my thoughts.
  
 Today, I'm back to 'old school' with 6SN7 and 5998. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm listening to Endless River by Pink Floyd on Tidal HiFi, Spotify Premium using NAD d1050  and from a double LP album played on my Denon TT. I'll let you know which I prefer the most after some extended listening but right now ... from Tidal and with these tubes, it's anything but 'old school'. Ok that's a tongue in cheek comment because this combination is so sweeeeeet and captivating. @pctazhp I think you love these drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah huh, @connieflyer bought the HD800 and he LOVES it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He's using a PS Audio DAC. Interesting to see everyone's setup.


----------



## UntilThen

@oshipao will tell you his Thorens and Benz cartridge sounds best.


----------



## connieflyer

I have had the hd650 twice, hd700 and now the hd800 and love it. Very open and resolving, Much better than the the 650-700, well worth the price difference especially now that the 800s is out price on 800 dropped nicely


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> JV, try the HD800 too. You might like it over the HD800S.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Being old I like "old school" )))


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


>




 CF:  The general idea here is to post music - not noise!!! Sorry, but I couldn't resist 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm usually spot on with your musical selections. I just hope you aren't buried in a mountain of laundry and losing oxygen to the brain


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> CF:  The general idea here is to post music - not noise!!! Sorry, but I couldn't resist :evil:  I'm usually spot on with your musical selections. I just hope you aren't buried in a mountain of laundry and losing oxygen to the brain :confused_face_2:




I liked it just great! Now I can provide some NOISE if you want...


----------



## JazzVinyl

Lee Ritenour:


[VIDEO] https://youtube.com/watch?v=eSATSExyzTU [/VIDEO]


----------



## UntilThen

Good choice ! Love both videos. Smoke 'n' Mirrors is very good. Love Lee Ritenour. One of my fav musicians. 
  
 Alright the verdict. Been listening to this song on Tidal Hifi, Spotify Premium with NAD d1050 and an album version on LP. Both Tidal and the LP sounded very good. Hard to pick a winner. Surprisingly the Spotify Premium version isn't too bad but it's not quite as good as the other 2. All listening done with T1 and modded HD650.
  
 Sylvania 6SN7gtb Chrome Top and Tung Sol 5998 is a very good sounding tube combination on Elise. Check it out.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Did you buy the Endless River LP brand new? I have the CD, but have not listened to it all the way through.


----------



## UntilThen

Yup bought the album brand new from JB HiFi. It's a double LP in 180gm. Album covers are very nice. It's a good recording. Columbia Records, a division of Sony Music.


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer gave me 'Dark Side of the Moon' and 'Wish You Were Here' albums. They are the best of Pink Floyd in my opinion. However I still want to get the 'Another Brick in the Wall'. 
  
 Kind of Pink Floyd day for me today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Where is my Led Zeppelin friend @supersonic395


----------



## JazzVinyl

Animals!

Ummagumma!

Welcome To The Machine!


----------



## UntilThen

Ummagumma is $59.99 new for a double LP. The Wall is $30 used. Looks like it's a visit to the record shop again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ... but I can get all these on Tidal.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Ummagumma is $59.99 new for a double LP. The Wall is $30 used. Looks like it's a visit to the record shop again.
> 
> ... but I can get all these on Tidal.




Then just Tidal them!

My copies are from when Dinosaurs walked the earth


----------



## DavidA

jazzvinyl said:


> Then just Tidal them!
> 
> *My copies are from when Dinosaurs walked the earth *


 
 You mean the 60's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I still have some LPs and 45's from back then but they haven't turned to stone yet.


----------



## UntilThen

Dinasaurs must have nice turntables. I bet they have tube amps too.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Forgetaboutit Y'all...



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZUuVk5E2qs[/VIDEO]


----------



## JazzVinyl

jazzvinyl said:


> Forgetaboutit Y'all...




Funny, I listed to this at work via a little USB DAC...sounded HORRIBLE!

But suggested it, after it came on my Sony Hi-Res portable player which had a Redbook CD lossless on it and it sounded
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FANTASTIC!


----------



## UntilThen

Has anyone upgraded to JRiver Media 22 ? I did, from 21 but there's no thunder and lightning??? Or is that asking too much.
  
 I do like this software player. Sounds good.


----------



## ostewart

Edit.. fixed


----------



## mordy

Hi everyone,
  
 I do notice that a lot of space on the Elise forum is devoted to headphones. Even though I do not listen so much through headphones/earbuds, there are occasions when I do.
  
 The headphones usually mentioned here are more on the expensive side. My question is if I could find earbuds (or headphones) that sound quite good on a much smaller budget than the Sennheiser and Beryerdynamic top offerings.
  
 I do have the Venture Electronics Monk earbuds which are quite good, especially considering the very low price, but I am wondering of people have recommendations for items that may sound considerably better on a low budget.


----------



## DavidA

@mordy, what is your definition of "low budget"?  less than $100? or $200?


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy, HD600. Can't go wrong there.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Good choice ! Love both videos. Smoke 'n' Mirrors is very good. Love Lee Ritenour. One of my fav musicians.
> 
> Alright the verdict. Been listening to this song on Tidal Hifi, Spotify Premium with NAD d1050 and an album version on LP. Both Tidal and the LP sounded very good. Hard to pick a winner. Surprisingly the Spotify Premium version isn't too bad but it's not quite as good as the other 2. All listening done with T1 and modded HD650.
> 
> *Sylvania 6SN7gtb Chrome Top and Tung Sol 5998 is a very good sounding tube combination on Elise. Check it out.*


 
 UT: I think this combination is pretty hard to beat. I came close here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/10995#post_12615560
  
 But the Sylvania drivers are clearly better that the TS GTBs. This is "end game" territory.


----------



## connieflyer

Is this getting better PCT?


----------



## JazzVinyl

Get Down! Get Paleosonic!



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCV_bR0h8Ps[/VIDEO]





.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Is this getting better PCT?


 
  
 Better???? This is real MUSIC direct from heaven 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Well done CF ))))


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> Get Down! Get Paleosonic!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 WOW! If anything in my system still needed some burn-in this just took care of it. Pretty cool)))


----------



## mordy

Hi DavidA,
  
 The less the better re price, but they have to sound very good. Obviously, I am looking for sleepers.....
  
 Hi UT,
  
 A long time ago, I bought a Headroom Max Home headphone amp and a set of Sennheiser HD600, but I was never happy with this combination. This was long before I got into tubes though.
  
 With these headphones I felt that everything was there, but it lacked life - must have been the ss headphone amp, even though it was supposed to be state of the art then.
  
 Remember the Sennheiser HD 414? I think I bought them in the early 70's.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> WOW! If anything in my system still needed some burn-in this just took care of it. Pretty cool)))




Now that your all worked up, lets bring ya down with some Kitaro:



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3lTcpIN2kA[/VIDEO]


----------



## DavidA

@mordy, my recommendation of cheap good sounding headphones:
 Sennheiser HD-239, $52 (out of Fiio X3 this sounds better than a HD-650 to me from same)
 used like-new Momentum on-ear, $54 to $100 (I've given away 6 of these but got them when they were $48-54 each)
 if you can do some DIY then a used SR-225i ($75-100) modded with dynamat and sorbothane will get you almost to a RS2e ($495) level, and in some ways actually sound better
  
 Hope this gives you some help
 D


----------



## JazzVinyl

This is old news, but I still use my modded KOSS KSC-75's at work, straight out of the Sony nwz-a17 DAP's headphone jack and it's really, highly recommended. Super cheap to buy super cheap to mod and sound very very good.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/124243/kramer-mod-ksc75

I did the parts-express headband and removal of the ear baffle, replaced with screening (like you have on the outside of your home windows). Have enough screen left to do about another 7 or 8000 pair of KSC-75's


----------



## mordy

Hi JV,
  
 Happen to have a pair of Koss Porta-Pro - are these very different?


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Hi JV,
> 
> Happen to have a pair of Koss Porta-Pro - are these very different?




I love Porta-Pros too 

KSC-75 are less bassy than Porta Pros. But are similar you probably hate the headband on Porta Pros?

Buy these and pop in the porta pro drivers:

http://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-mini-stereo-lightweight-headphones-with-4-ft-cord--240-015

That is what I did for the 75's. 

I never plug these into Elise, just straight out of DAP's...


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> UT: I think this combination is pretty hard to beat. I came close here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/10995#post_12615560
> 
> But the Sylvania drivers are clearly better that the TS GTBs. This is "end game" territory.


 

 Holy grail LOL. Ok ... they are pretty good.


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy !!! 
  
 These are my spares and they are 'cheaper' and sounds pretty good. Momentum will move you. It's crystal - are we clear? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 PSB has more bass. So there you go. No shortage of affordable headphones for Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

And Elise will drive my Samsung earbuds to astonishing levels.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> And Elise will drive my Samsung earbuds to astonishing levels.


 
 A little over kill?


----------



## UntilThen

Dave, this is overkill.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> Dave, this is overkill.


 
 sold out already


----------



## UntilThen

This is a good review of the Expressivo with T1. 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/espressivo-e-by-feliks-audio/reviews/16517
  
 In my opinion, T1 original is perfect with Elise. Having an upgraded JRiver Media 22, I've been going through my entire 300 CDs ripped as flac files on my hard disk and it's a very lovely session. I've probably only done a couple of albums so far. This pairing makes you want to go through your music library again. When that's finished, you start with your LPs, then you move on to Tidal....


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> This is a good review of the Expressivo with T1.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/espressivo-e-by-feliks-audio/reviews/16517
> 
> In my opinion, T1 original is perfect with Elise. Having an upgraded JRiver Media 22, I've been going through my entire 300 CDs ripped as flac files on my hard disk and it's a very lovely session. I've probably only done a couple of albums so far. This pairing makes you want to go through your music library again. When that's finished, you start with your LPs, then you move on to Tidal....


 
 Yes it's a good review but I have no problems with bass damping using sub-100 ohm cans and Espressivo, like Elise, responds brilliantly to tube rolling.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I do notice that a lot of space on the Elise forum is devoted to headphones. Even though I do not listen so much through headphones/earbuds, there are occasions when I do.
> 
> ...


 
 I find my SoundMagic E10 and K702 are very good with Elise. I am using the AKG's most of the time at present and they are a real bargain to purchase just now. You do need to like the AKG sound signature though.


----------



## ostewart

Anyone try the Hifiman HE-500 with Elise?


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> Anyone try the Hifiman HE-500 with Elise?


 
 Not the 500 but the 400 sounds very good, with its occasionally peaky treble tamed using EL3N drivers. To retain the HE400's treble fizz, which I enjoy much of the time, I use  6SN7's or C3G's as drivers. Elise also really brings out the HE400's strong bass in a wonderful way.
 (All this using dual 6J5's+6BL7 combos as powers).
 Should add, no problem powering the HE400 either. Loud, realistic concert hall volumes at 10-11 o'clock.


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> Anyone try the Hifiman HE-500 with Elise?


 

 I have HE-560 and use it quite a lot prior to getting T1. Love it.
  
 Heard the HE-500 at a meet with my Elise. Has a more pronounced bass and good sound signature but overall I prefer the HE-560 on Elise. However I'm mainly using T1 and modded HD650 now. The clamp of the HE-560 is just too tight on my head.
  
@HOWIE13 I love the AKG K702 when I heard it at the meet. I thought the soundstage is quite wide but bass not as pronounced as HD650, which is fine with me. It sounded very clear.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Should add, no problem powering the HE400 either. Loud, realistic concert hall volumes at 10-11 o'clock.


 
 Similar experience with the HE-560. 11 o'clock is all I need without making me deaf.


----------



## UntilThen

Had on the HE-560 again. Midrange sounded better than the T1. I have to push the volume to 12 noon on some albums. Soundstage is not as wide as T1 for sure but absolutely love the sound signature. Love it on Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon. Vocals sounds gorgeous. Tubes used are Sylvania 6SN7gtb and Chatham 6520.


----------



## connieflyer

If you are still interested in earbuds, these aare the ones I bought and they have a similar Sennheiser sound to them. I had asked on one of the other forums and a member there had recommended them, and he was right on the money.  I like the flat cable as well, it does not tangle as much and you can eiither get the android type or mac type so the contols work seemles on your pnone.  For inexpensive headphones I still have a pair of Koss Pro AA and AAA headphones from the 1970's!


----------



## connieflyer

PCT glad my music is starting to find favor with you, I listen to so many different types of music, hard to not find something I like.  Although I do stop at rap, don't need the trash talk, need Melody.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I have HE-560 and use it quite a lot prior to getting T1. Love it.
> 
> Heard the HE-500 at a meet with my Elise. Has a more pronounced bass and good sound signature but overall I prefer the HE-560 on Elise. However I'm mainly using T1 and modded HD650 now. The clamp of the HE-560 is just too tight on my head.
> 
> @HOWIE13 I love the AKG K702 when I heard it at the meet. I thought the soundstage is quite wide but bass not as pronounced as HD650, which is fine with me. It sounded very clear.


 
 It's the clarity of the AKG that appeals to me, like there is nothing between me and the performers..
  
 I have tried very hard to enjoy the HD650 but have never been able to quite fully engage. I'm sure it's my ears/brain because a can which has been on the go for around 20 years is obviously good to be liked by so many.
 For me it's not so much the 'veil', which Elise overcomes with the appropriate tubes anyway, it's more the sound-stage. It's like I'm listening through a letter box. Good width of sound but no depth or height. On the other hand I have no such problem with the HD600 which I really like.
  
 As to the AKG, I used to have the K701 until a cheap Chinese amp fried it. It had an enormous sound stage- actually too big to be true all too often and a treble which could be uncomfortably bright and grainy, though 'on song' it could sound terrific. For me the K702 has a more realistic sound-stage yet retains the control and detail of the K701 without being overly bright.


----------



## JazzVinyl

The more time running on Mimby, the less I can distinguish it from my other DAC's. 

That being the case, I can't justify keeping it, as a $250.00 testimony to hype/salesmanship.


----------



## mordy

Hi CF,
  
 Read your post about earbuds but I am not clear on which ones you were referring to - could you please specify?


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> The more time running on Mimby, the less I can distinguish it from my other DAC's.
> 
> That being the case, I can't justify keeping it, as a $250.00 testimony to* hype/salesmanship.*


 
 Isn't that being a little unfair to Schiit since they gave you a 15-day right of return?


----------



## ostewart

My Elise will be running some Beyerdynamics at CanJam London (Beyerdynamic stand), @HOWIE13 come say hi


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> My Elise will be running some Beyerdynamics at CanJam London (Beyerdynamic stand), @HOWIE13 come say hi


 
 Look forward to seeing you there.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Isn't that being a little unfair to Schiit since they gave you a 15-day right of return?




Not blaming Schiit...Head-Fi users are the hype-ers' 

Schiit is more than fair in charging 5% to let you check it out. I guess I was expecting a significant improvement. It just is not there for me. There is a slight upper midrange frequency boost, which I do not find particularly beneficial.

I have my RA...

So back it goes.

:rolleyes:


----------



## connieflyer

mordy said:


> Hi CF,
> 
> Read your post about earbuds but I am not clear on which ones you were referring to - could you please specify?


 

 The NS500...Does help if you remember to include the link....http://nocs.se/collections/all/products/ns500-aluminum-android
  
NS500 Aluminum (Android)  Buy now Unavailable



 The next-generation Nocs NS500 is a study in evolution. The aluminum housing that we debuted in 2008 has been continuously refined, to the point where it is now a CNC-machined, Chamfered-cut work of art. This superior approach to materials equates to a sound that’s equally superior, supplying the listener with an amazing sonic experience that offers impeccable balance, rich detail and a deep bass in equal measure.

 Moreover, the NS500 is complimented by a tangle-free cable and a three-button remote for seamless control of your Android and Windows phone device. The MEMS silicon microphone removes GSM/TDMA burst noise and picks up your speech 360 degrees. Four different-sized ear tips, one sets each to provide an excellent fit.


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> My Elise will be running some Beyerdynamics at CanJam London (Beyerdynamic stand), @HOWIE13 come say hi


 

 Stewart which Beyerdynamics are you using with Elise at CanJam London? Perhaps @hypnos1 should visit the meet again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Focal Utopia and Elear will be there. 
  
 I see you're already selling your Expressivo. Has Elise replaced it already?


----------



## JazzVinyl

Note that the Modi2 MultiBit is a 15% restocking fee, not 5%.

My Schiity excursion cost me:
$14.00 shipping to me
$37.35 - 15% restocking fee
$ 9.45 shipping back
===
$60.80 in total to hear what I already flippin' had.

But, better than being out $263.00, I guess

Too bad no local dealers/auditions....

:mad:


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> Note that the Modi2 MultiBit is a 15% restocking fee, not 5%.
> 
> My Schiity excursion cost me:
> $14.00 shipping to me
> ...


 
 Life is tough. You pays your money and takes your chances. Maybe you better stick to stuff you can audition at BestBuy!!!


----------



## UntilThen

It's the reason I bought the JDS Lab o2+odac limited edition with all the bells  and whistles at $399 and then sold it at $300 six months later. Was I happy when I had it? Sure it was my 1st headphone dac/amp and drove my hd650 with ease but just sounded digital. 
  
 Should try the *New* with *Acoustics* and lots of *Dimension* d1050. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now this is more vinyl.


----------



## ostewart

untilthen said:


> Stewart which Beyerdynamics are you using with Elise at CanJam London? Perhaps @hypnos1
> should visit the meet again.   Focal Utopia and Elear will be there.
> 
> I see you're already selling your Expressivo. Has Elise replaced it already?




Not sure whether to use it with T1 2nd gen or DT 1990 Pro yet, might have to demo on the day and see what pairing I prefer.

Selling Espressivo in the event that I buy Elise, need some monies


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> Not sure whether to use it with T1 2nd gen or DT 1990 Pro yet, might have to demo on the day and see what pairing I prefer.
> 
> Selling Espressivo in the event that I buy Elise, need some monies


 

 Interesting that Beyer has just introduced the DT 1990 Pro. Announcement like 4 days ago. I regard the T1 as Beyer top end headphone and sure sounded it. I had the DT880 Pro before but clearly the T1 sounded much better to me.
  
 DT1990 Pro is 250 ohms and 102db. Should be just perfect for Elise. Keen to hear your thoughts of the T1 G2 and DT1990 Pro on Elise.
  
 I would suggest an upgraded 6SN7 and 6AS7 for your Elise. Sylvania 6SN7gtb and Chatham 6520 is a big step up from stock tubes and is still reasonably priced.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Holy grail LOL. Ok ... they are pretty good.


 
 Ok. Your sarcastic comment about Sylvania 6SN7-GTB/5998 is duly noted - and probably justified. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So I guess I will have to give you the true Holy Grail. It's Sylvania 6SN7-WTBs/6520s. And you can take that to the bank 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The other day when I was discussing my 6SN7s I didn't give due credit to the WTBs because I hadn't listened to them in a long time. Been listening to them a lot since then. They are more than "pretty good"


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Ok. Your sarcastic comment about Sylvania 6SN7-GTB/5998 is duly noted - and probably justified. :etysmile:
> 
> So I guess I will have to give you the true Holy Grail. It's Sylvania 6SN7-WTBs/6520s. And you can take that to the bank :atsmile:
> 
> The other day when I was discussing my 6SN7s I didn't give due credit to the WTBs because I hadn't listened to them in a long time. Been listening to them a lot since then. They are more than "pretty good"




Have you tried the iconic Sylvania 6SN7W?
They really dig out superb details. Kind of amazing!


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Life is tough. You pays your money and takes your chances. Maybe you better stick to stuff you can audition at BestBuy!!!




There are a couple of high end shops in town, smarty-pants!

Bottom line...no real DAC breakthroughs in nearly a decade.

Head-fi has also provided me with some wonderful bargains....so it all works out in the end.


----------



## nykobing

jazzvinyl said:


> Have you tried the iconic Sylvania 6SN7W?
> They really dig out superb details. Kind of amazing!


 
 You talking about those expensive metal 6sn7w? I don't like the regular ones, short bakelite bottles, at all compared to other tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> Have you tried the iconic Sylvania 6SN7W?
> They really dig out superb details. Kind of amazing!


 
 Haven't tried. Seems pretty pricey from what I've seen on Ebay. But I'll keep my eyes open for a "bargain".


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> There are a couple of high end shops in town, smarty-pants!
> 
> Bottom line...no real DAC breakthroughs in nearly a decade.
> 
> Head-fi has also provided me with some wonderful bargains....so it all works out in the end.


 
 Pretty hard to find anything to audition here in the Phoenix metropolitan area. But we've got an abundance of backyard patio furniture stores )))


----------



## UntilThen

Holy grail has to be reserved for something ultra special so I will refrain from using that until .... then. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Elise can sound wonderful with inexpensive tubes. These Fotons.... not to be confused with futons, are pretty good with Chatham 6520. At $10 a pair. Can't get any cheaper. I bet they will sound good too with a pair of RCA 6AS7G.


----------



## nykobing

untilthen said:


> Holy grail has to be reserved for something ultra special so I will refrain from using that until .... then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have a pair of those from 1952 or 1951, they are yours if you enjoy that pair, they sounded flat and lifeless compared to the 6n8s with holes in them, they were worse than any 1950's American 6sn7 tube I heard.  I think I heard them with 6520's too .


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Pretty hard to find anything to audition here in the Phoenix metropolitan area. But we've got an abundance of backyard patio furniture stores )))




I hear ya, and Schiit's policy of letting you try the stuff, is a good idea, for them, and for consumers.


----------



## UntilThen

nykobing said:


> I have a pair of those from 1952 or 1951, they are yours if you enjoy that pair, they sounded flat and lifeless compared to the 6n8s with holes in them, they were worse than any 1950's American 6sn7 tube I heard.  I think I heard them with 6520's too .


 
  
 You're referring to the Melz 6N8S below. Those are expensive. $180 a pair. Never heard them. The inexpensive 6N8S sounds pretty good to me. Listening with T1.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Holy grail has to be reserved for something ultra special so I will refrain from using that until .... then.


 
  
 Isn't the holy grail buried under the Louvre or someplace like that??? Guess we'll all just have to keep searching.


----------



## nykobing

untilthen said:


> You're referring to the Melz 6N8S below. Those are expensive. $180 a pair. Never heard them. The inexpensive 6N8S sounds pretty good to me. Listening with T1.


 
 Not those, even though I have a pair of them, those have some oval mica, they sound way better than the regular 6n8s, but not as good as the best ones. Here I found the good, better, best picture and it is correct


----------



## UntilThen

Darn it. So many types of Russian 6N8S. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I want to buy this to pair with my single Sylvania 6SN7wgt. @pctazhp you have a pair. Is this price reasonable for single? Looks identical to mine. I like them to look the same. Same height, same color lettering. Looks are important. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Jan-Chs-Sylvania-6sn7wgt-Strong-Balanced/182217479700?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D461dbaba799c4e2dac2b68d81ccd1be7%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D252435052652
  
 Here's my lonely tube.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hey pct...

Here is a Phoenix dealer selling tube DAC's...

AUDIO VIDEO CHOICES, Inc.
601 E Indian School Rd, Suite 200
Phoenix, AZ 85012
(602) 265-1628
Open Tues - Fri 10am-6pm, Sat 10am-4pm
(Closed Sun+Mon)


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Darn it. So many types of Russian 6N8S.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Good price. Looks like mine. I'd go for it if I were you.


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> Hey pct...
> 
> Here is a Phoenix dealer selling tube DAC's...
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks. I'll check it out )))


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Good price. Looks like mine. I'd go for it if I were you.


 

 Alright I bought the tube. It's been a while since I bought a tube. It better be the holy grail as you said.


----------



## ostewart

untilthen said:


> Interesting that Beyer has just introduced the DT 1990 Pro. Announcement like 4 days ago. I regard the T1 as Beyer top end headphone and sure sounded it. I had the DT880 Pro before but clearly the T1 sounded much better to me.
> 
> DT1990 Pro is 250 ohms and 102db. Should be just perfect for Elise. Keen to hear your thoughts of the T1 G2 and DT1990 Pro on Elise.
> 
> I would suggest an upgraded 6SN7 and 6AS7 for your Elise. Sylvania 6SN7gtb and Chatham 6520 is a big step up from stock tubes and is still reasonably priced.


 
  
 You should grab a listen to the DT 1990 when you can, they sound great out of Elise, I say they are halfway between T1 and T1 2nd Generation, slightly less refined maybe but a very flat and neutral sound, with excellent detail retrieval and no famous Beyer peak (DT 880's anyone)
  
 I'll let you know how the T1 2nd Generation pair with it.


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> You should grab a listen to the DT 1990 when you can, they sound great out of Elise, I say they are halfway between T1 and T1 2nd Generation, slightly less refined maybe but a very flat and neutral sound, with excellent detail retrieval and no famous Beyer peak (DT 880's anyone)
> 
> I'll let you know how the T1 2nd Generation pair with it.


 

 Sounds promising but it's still early days. They are not in Australia yet. I have the T1 original and love it with Elise.
  
 However you need to listen to a modded HD650. 3 extra pieces of Dynamite (Dynamat) as discovered by DL has improved the resolution and impact and shattered any veil. 
  
 I posted a picture in the other Elise thread. post #12708


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Alright I bought the tube. It's been a while since I bought a tube. It better be the holy grail as you said.


 
 In the words of our two illustrious presidential candidates: I never said anything I've ever said before


----------



## pctazhp

The Holy Grail of love songs:


----------



## UntilThen

Johnny sounds simply beautiful even on my Samsung s7 edge.


----------



## connieflyer

Good Morning,,, or afternoon,,evening as it may be for you, here is one for you @UntilThen,  you can take a nap now..


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen  I am certain you have heard Jackson Berkey before, think Mannheim Steamroller, yep one and the same. Accompliced I think.  Just set up my Sony Hap-S1  hd server, and it is a very nice peice of equipment. Just started the file transfer of all the music files from the computer with a remote app on a tablet, I may never leave my chair again!  Talk about shiftless, I could easily become a politician!   http://www.sony.com/electronics/audio-components/hap-s1


----------



## hypnos1

Hey @pctazhp and @UntilThen, all this talk of HOLY GRAIL is music to my ears...and I'm sure you can guess what comes next, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - yes, my very own version of it (well, _one_ at
 least!)...ie.................
  
 .....
  
 ECC31/GEC CV2523/T1.....fed by a _*tube DAC*_, of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...This combination has Elise singing like a Nightingale could only dream of LOL...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hey @pctazhp and @UntilThen, all this talk of HOLY GRAIL is music to my ears...and I'm sure you can guess what comes next, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Very unfair of you to bring in your "unobtainian" power tubes into this discussion.


----------



## Oskari

Unobtanium befits holy grail.


----------



## pctazhp

I guess the most important question is whether the Elise is the Holy Grail. It's my HG because it is the best I have heard, but I haven't heard any of the big buck amps. Will be interesting to read reports from London CanJam, but for the foreseeable future I'll be sticking with Elise.
  
 I preface the following remarks by fully admitting I am an electronic ignoramus and so this is just uneducated babble. It seems to me that the internals of a tube amp must first be designed to keep distortion below audible levels and as faithfully as possible maintain accuracy of the waveform from input to output.
  
 It also must accommodate power tubes that can drive without any problems the headphones most likely to be used with the amp AND  accommodate a combination of tubes that introduce just the right amount of even order harmonic distortion to create a listening experience that its owners find both pleasant and more like a live performance. Perhaps it also has accommodates tubes that will alter the FR just enough to provide a more pleasing and "realistic" experience than a totally flat frequency response.
  
 If any of that has any validity, it seems to me Elise is a really good tube amp.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Very unfair of you to bring in your "unobtainian" power tubes into this discussion.


 
  
 And you thought I was a nice guy, pct!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...must admit I am indeed being a tad cruel - but with reference to O's words below, these days one needs to be somewhat of a "Crusader" in order to hunt down and capture such glories LOL...but they are out there in no-man's land - _*somewhere!!*_ "Simply" (?!!) follow @mordy's mantra for said search, and the journey can indeed sometimes bear wonderful fruit...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


oskari said:


> Unobtanium befits holy grail.


 
  
 Always spot on, O...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1   I've been chasing holy grails all my life, so all is good


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1   I've been chasing holy grails all my life, so all is good


 
  
 So just when does the chase finally end, lol?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen  I am certain you have heard Jackson Berkey before, think Mannheim Steamroller, yep one and the same. Accompliced I think.  Just set up my Sony Hap-S1  hd server, and it is a very nice peice of equipment. Just started the file transfer of all the music files from the computer with a remote app on a tablet, I may never leave my chair again!  Talk about shiftless, I could easily become a politician!   http://www.sony.com/electronics/audio-components/hap-s1


 
 Looks like a nice audio gear at $999. Does it sound better with the High Resolution Audio? Here you go @Lord Raven you were looking for an audio source to replace your PC.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> So just when does the chase finally end, lol?! :rolleyes: ...:bigsmile_face: ...







mikelap said:


>


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hey @pctazhp and @UntilThen, all this talk of HOLY GRAIL is music to my ears...and I'm sure you can guess what comes next, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I see a pair of non identical ECC31 visually so that's minus 0.2 points.


----------



## UntilThen

Oscar it's the END. See all the musicians in this video including Jeff Lynne


----------



## connieflyer

Sounds goo, but miss Roy Orbison in there


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> Looks like a nice audio gear at $999. Does it sound better with the High Resolution Audio? Here you go @Lord Raven you were looking for an audio source to replace your PC.


 
 It does sound very good with Hi Res files, I have not had a chance to but the dac or elise in the loop yet, but just listening with headphone out this sounds very refined.


----------



## Oskari

The chase is the end? You may be on to something here, UT.

♫ _Well it's all right_ ♫


----------



## pctazhp

OK my friends. All this talk about the "END" is making this old geezer a little nervous 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 And giving me a good laugh


----------



## DavidA

hypnos1 said:


> So just when does the chase finally end, lol?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 GF says so for me


----------



## Spork67

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSUIQgEVDM4


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> Looks like a nice audio gear at $999. Does it sound better with the High Resolution Audio? Here you go @Lord Raven you were looking for an audio source to replace your PC.


 
 It cannot do DSD, all my music is in ultra high-res  @UntilThen


----------



## UntilThen

It says supports DSD.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> It says supports DSD.


 
 Awesome  Looks like a very nice player, but can it pair with T1?


----------



## geetarman49

lord raven said:


> Awesome  Looks like a very nice player, but can it pair with T1?


 

 LR, while it supports dsf & dff, better have a look at the specs --- see what i see?  i think not for you - unless there is workaround.
  
 http://www.sony.com/electronics/audio-components/hap-s1/specifications


----------



## HOWIE13

I see they talk about producing the sound of the original performance.
  
 What I don't understand about these machines is how they can improve the sound of the original file or CD by altering bits and pieces. Surely the original sound is the best fit to the original performance? Isn't it rather like manufacturers pretending you can improve on the sound of an MP3 file by simply converting it to FLAC?.
  
 Come to think of it isn't the sound directly coming out of a DAC the nearest to the original, before the amplifier changes it?
  
 I'm quite bewildered this morning by all this. Maybe 'cos I've started comparing all my power tubes last night on Elise and my ears and brain need a rest.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 PS Tramadol doesn't help much either!


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I see a pair of non identical ECC31 visually so that's minus 0.2 points.


 
  
 Yo UT...shame about that - I too like symmetry lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I do have a pair more alike, but these non-identical twins sing in_ perfect _harmony - I have found before that there could well be something in what _some_ aficianados say about going for "matched" pairs...ie a certain special 'magic' in delivery that is hard to define. But I personally think it is in fact equally down to factors other than just identical _electrical_ measurements. And in a way this must surely be the case, as no two tubes are ever going to be _precisely _the same...even if next to each other on the production line! Therefore, I submit that _perhaps_ it is indeed very slight _differences_ between the two, rather than exact _similarities_ that may (if lucky!) in combination complement each other such that 1+1=3 LOL!!...or not, as the case may be! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
 All I know is this particular pair of ECC31s does indeed produce that special magic, and so actually deserves _*plus*_ 0.2 points...if not more!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







... (plus I must admit I do rather like the more understated - as with Elise - translucent look of the QTL branded brown base tube...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...)...Oh Happy Days!...


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> I see they talk about producing the sound of the original performance.
> 
> What I don't understand about these machines is how they can improve the sound of the original file or CD by altering bits and pieces. Surely the original sound is the best fit to the original performance? Isn't it rather like manufacturers pretending you can improve on the sound of an MP3 file by simply converting it to FLAC?.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Bewildering subject indeed H13...in which there are so many facets, of course.
  
 For starters, the 'original' sound recording is only what the engineer/equipment/location have actually _done_ to the 'performance'...and we all know that not all sound engineers especially are equal!! And so I suppose one could argue therefore that 'manipulating' a so-so file/CD might just "improve" it...or rather "alter" it, lol! This is also what we in effect do by swapping different tubes - or other pieces of equipment, of course. But most of this alteration is surely just to cater for different _tastes_ anyway!
  
 Where I do personally believe true "improvements" can be made is by _reinstating_ what was removed in the compression stage to CD for example, post-mastering...in the same way as a good upscaling TV/DVD player will reproduce an original HD recording to near perfection when actually broadcast in SD...(if I'm correct in my transposing to pure audio!).
  
 I'm sure there are 101 other elements involved here, but now _my_ poor brain needs a rest also...so this will have to suffice LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. Go easy on the Tramadol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Bewildering subject indeed H13...in which there are so many facets, of course.
> 
> For starters, the 'original' sound recording is only what the engineer/equipment/location have actually _done_ to the 'performance'...and we all know that not all sound engineers especially are equal!! And so I suppose one could argue therefore that 'manipulating' a so-so file/CD might just "improve" it...or rather "alter" it, lol! This is also what we in effect do by swapping different tubes - or other pieces of equipment, of course. But most of this alteration is surely just to cater for different _tastes_ anyway!
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks H1 for giving me some insight into this complex subject.
  
 Yeah this sciatica really IS a pain. Sometimes I can sit listening to music but last night I had to stand while listening. Not ideal.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Yo UT...shame about that - I too like symmetry lol...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 These matching figures sellers tell you about are pretty useless I find, once it comes to listening.
  
 I did discover recently though that the much admired and expensive Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT231, you know the one with the dark glass and deep bass, well it has a version in clear glass which is identical structurally, electrically and sonically and is usually to be found for half the price.


----------



## Spork67

I'd never heard of this amp until last weekend, when I read about it in a comparison between the 3 different flavour Fostex TH-X00 headphones and pairing them with this, another even more $$$ amp, and the Grace m9XX DAC/amp (which I currently own).
  
 Having "found"  it - I lusted for it...
  
 I've lived vicariously through the rest of the people in this thread.
  
 You all seem to love your Elise. This must be one of the "most active per capita" threads on Head-Fi.
  
 After a few email back and forwards, and finding the balance in my salary sacrifice card was healthier than I thought...
  

  
 I can't wait for it to get here.


----------



## pctazhp

spork67 said:


> I'd never heard of this amp until last weekend, when I read about it in a comparison between the 3 different flavour Fostex TH-X00 headphones and pairing them with this, another even more $$$ amp, and the Grace m9XX DAC/amp (which I currently own).
> 
> Having "found"  it - I lusted for it...
> 
> ...


 
 Congratulations))) You are really going to love it. Too bad you live so far from @UntilThen. Hopefully the two of you will be able to get together at some point.


----------



## pctazhp

Last night and this morning I've been doing some serious listening to Fleetwood Mac. And one more time I'm simply blown away at how truly special the Elise is.


----------



## connieflyer

Having listened the last hour or two to the Sony hard disc player listening to several DSD files playing this through my Harman Kardon AVR 7200 this sounds fantastic. Hopefully tomorrow I can run the output of the hard disk player into my deck then the Elise and headphones out and see how this combo works on DSD. So far using this with the remote app on a tablet couldn't be easier to go through and play the music.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> *These matching figures sellers tell you about are pretty useless I find, once it comes to listening.*
> 
> I did discover recently though that the much admired and expensive Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT231, you know the one with the dark glass and deep bass, well it has a version in clear glass which is identical structurally, electrically and sonically and is usually to be found for half the price.


 
 Yes indeed H13...which is why I'm much more inclined to believe that _other_ factors are at work in determining how well two tubes perform together - would never pay the kinds of premium some vendors try to get away with, lol!...(although I did once pay extra for the 'premium' version of the PsVane CV181TIIs, but at least I got them at a _reasonable_ price, even if still rather _over_-priced!).
  
 ps. Sciatica?...had always wondered what all the fuss was about with this condition...until one day I overdid the lawn raking, and that night boy, was I enlightened! - didn't know what was going on, and only masses of painkillers and Elise volume near ear-shattering levels got me through the night. And the next night, and the next...until the doc. diagnosed sciatic nerve as the culprit, gave me some stronger painkillers and told me this was the "acute" stage, but that it would then move on to a long-term "chronic" stage...at which point I didn't know whether to kiss her for the extra pain relief or scream..."thanks for nothing" lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  


spork67 said:


> I'd never heard of this amp until last weekend, when I read about it in a comparison between the 3 different flavour Fostex TH-X00 headphones and pairing them with this, another even more $$$ amp, and the Grace m9XX DAC/amp (which I currently own).
> 
> Having "found"  it - I lusted for it...
> 
> ...


 
  
 WELL DONE S67...and a warm welcome. Personal living is SO much better than vicarious LOL!!...well, with regard to Elise at least - not so sure about many other aspects of life however! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 And yes, this amp certainly can hold its own against others a good bit more expensive...so you have indeed made a good choice. I suspect you still have a fair bit of catching up to do with the x thousands of posts here and over at the the other one(s)!!...take your time!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....wishing your Elise a safe and speedy journey...
  


pctazhp said:


> Last night and this morning I've been doing some serious listening to Fleetwood Mac. And one more time I'm simply blown away at how truly special the Elise is.


 
  
 Hi pct....their 'Rumours' album is just sublime - and those guitars on "Never going back" sound incredible thru Elise...as do ALL the tracks, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...special indeed...


----------



## pctazhp

I lost my original Venture Electronics Monk Earbuds. So I ordered two of the Monk Plus (the red ones) from the last Massdrop drop and they arrived today.
  
 SCARY how good they sound driven by the Elise ))))
  
 Six days left on the current drop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/venture-electronics-monk-plus-earbud 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Sorry, I guess it's limited to shipping within the US.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Thanks H1 for giving me some insight into this complex subject.
> 
> Yeah this sciatica really IS a pain. Sometimes I can sit listening to music *but last night I had to stand while listening*. Not ideal.


 
  
 That's standing ovation for Elise performance. I do that when I'm moved by a particular track. I might even do a bit of moonwalk with the headphone on.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I'd never heard of this amp until last weekend, when I read about it in a comparison between the 3 different flavour Fostex TH-X00 headphones and pairing them with this, another even more $$$ amp, and the Grace m9XX DAC/amp (which I currently own).
> 
> Having "found"  it - I lusted for it...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Elise does that to you. Not only is it one of the most active per capita threads on Head-Fi, we're like family here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Congrats Sporky. That name... is it from Star Trek? I could be wrong. My knowledge of movies are a bit mixed up.
  
 Bring your Tasmanian lobsters and I'll bring my Sydney rock oysters. We can listen to Elise over a 'barbie que' and some chardonnay.
  
 ps... ouch that $140 shipping.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> That's standing ovation for Elise performance. I do that when I'm moved by a particular track. I might even do a bit of moonwalk with the headphone on.


 
 Tonight I'll listen standing up in the dark and close my eyes- hope I don't fall over.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Last night and this morning I've been doing some serious listening to Fleetwood Mac. And one more time I'm simply blown away at how truly special the Elise is.


 

 Bill must be quite blown by it too. His 1st inauguration song is Don't Stop by Fleetwood Mac. 
  
 I bought this Tusk double LP for $20, nearly mint. Love it. There's a fav track in it 'Sara'. A special person in my life.
  
 On Elise, it sounds amazing.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Having listened the last hour or two to the Sony hard disc player listening to several DSD files playing this through my Harman Kardon AVR 7200 this sounds fantastic. Hopefully tomorrow I can run the output of the hard disk player into my deck then the Elise and headphones out and see how this combo works on DSD. So far using this with the remote app on a tablet couldn't be easier to go through and play the music.


 
 Connieflyer !!! Glad you're back in the thick of music. When I first saw your sign on name, I thought you're a female..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So you did manage to play DSD through that Sony player? @Lord Raven did you hear this? Geez can you change your name and remove the Lord. Just Raven will do.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Bill must be quite blown by it too. His 1st inauguration song is Don't Stop by Fleetwood Mac.
> 
> I bought this Tusk double LP for $20, nearly mint. Love it. There's a fav track in it 'Sara'. A special person in my life.
> 
> On Elise, it sounds amazing.


 
 That LP is a real treasure, and Sara is one of my favorite FM songs. Such a great group.
  
 BTW, the Monk really sounds nice on my Note 4. On your Edge 7 I'm sure it would be even better.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Tonight I'll listen standing up in the dark and close my eyes- hope I don't fall over.


 
 Sometimes our bodies can really suck. I have the opposite problem. I can only stand in one place for a few minutes. Probably the result of my relatively minor case of Type 2 diabetes. 
  
 One of the 50 reasons I hated going to a night club on a general admission ticket in San Diego a few months ago. What was I even doing there??? Don't ask


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> One of the 50 reasons I hated going to a night club on a general admission ticket in San Diego a few months ago. What was I even doing there??? Don't ask :eek:




Ha! What were you doing there? 


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbMyfz5HpL0[/VIDEO]


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> Connieflyer !!! Glad you're back in the thick of music. When I first saw your sign on name, I thought you're a female.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am listening to dsd files on the Sony now. Sound great. And just so you don't confuse me with a female, I changed my avatar to reflect what a "Connie" is! Make that Lockheed Constellation, flight crew, electronics technician Hope that clears things up for  you!


----------



## Oskari

One of the most beautiful aircraft ever.



Photo source: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lockheed_L-1649_Constellation_TWA.jpg


----------



## connieflyer

With about 1500 hours on her, I agree, one of the most comfortable planes of that era. Our flights lasted between 14 and 15 hours and I never once was worried about safety, well maybe once, or twice, oh well I loved it. Sounds those radials made would put me to sleep, when I was off, the drone was so easy to listen to.


----------



## Spork67

Thanks for the warm welcome.


untilthen said:


> Elise does that to you. Not only is it one of the most active per capita threads on Head-Fi, we're like family here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The name was given to me many years ago by a moderator on the first forum I ever joined, and it just kind of stuck.
 A spork is 1/2 spoon, 1/2 fork.
 In the 70's we called them "Splades".
  
 I'm always up for seafood, or a BBQ. Combine the two... I'm there.
  
 The shipping did sting, but what can you do?


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I am listening to dsd files on the Sony now. Sound great. And just so you don't confuse me with a female, I changed my avatar to reflect what a "Connie" is! Make that Lockheed Constellation, flight crew, electronics technician Hope that clears things up for  you!


 
 I see, you were an aircraft technician. Excellent. So that's where Connie comes from. I thought you're Connie Francis.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome.
> 
> The shipping did sting, but what can you do?


 
 I did spend over 1 grand aussie dollars for Elise but it's worth it. I'm still loving it every minute after 9 months.
  
 What headphone and gear are you using with Elise?


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> I did spend over 1 grand aussie dollars for Elise but it's worth it. I'm still loving it every minute after 9 months.
> 
> What headphone and gear are you using with Elise?


 
  
 I have a grace m9XX that I will use as the DAC and a pair of Fostex TH-X00 HPs.
 I also have some ATH-AD900X, but I hardly use them and will probably give them to one of the kids once my other "open" HPs arrive. I'll try them with the Elise though. they lack bass but are fairly nice other than that. The tubes might help put some bass back into them.
 The other open cans are a pair of Stax 404's. I have an older Stax SS amp for them.
 It's been an expensive month or so...


----------



## UntilThen

I tried the Fostex TH-X00 at a meet with my Elise and I remember I was quite surprised it sounded pretty good. My eyebrows kind of shot up. This hobby will bite deep but if you buy with some planning you don't need to spend big dollars to get very enjoyable sound. I have really enjoyed having Elise as the amp in my head-fi setup. I don't see the need to upgrade the amp again.
  
 My fav hp is still the beyerdynamics T1 g1 and I do enjoy classic rock occasionally with this tube amp.


----------



## Spork67

SWMBO and I have very different musical tastes, so almost all of my listening for the last 10 or so years has been either headphones or in the car.
 I got my first external DAC/amp about 18 months ago and couldn't believe how much better it sounded than the PCs onboard sound.
  
 A couple of months ago I purchased the Fostex HPs, and straight away fell in love. They don't have the soundstage and airiness of the Audio Technicas, but the had more detail, a mellower, sweeter sound - and they did bass! The little Grace unit was the next upgrade, and it was another big improvement over the Yulong I had previously. What I had considered "warm" sounding was now muddy...
  
 I wondered what I was missing out on by never hearing electrostatics, and I found some "bargain" Stax 507s on ebay. While waiting for them to arrive I found a reasonably priced old Stax amp. Of course, the 507s never appeared, so I got a refund - but I had the amp, so now I'm waiting on the 404s from a member on here...
  
 I have been tube curious for a while, but I didn't think it was any point getting a cheap tube amp to try and wondering why I preferred the Class A SS Grace - so here I am getting a moderately priced tube amp to audition. I also plan to try planar magnetic HPs at some stage...
  
 Not sure how much gear I will end up keeping and how much I will move along. Several purchases have been used stuff so I shouldn't lose too much on that if I don't keep it. I imagine i will end up keeping at least 2 different amps and HPs, to cater to different music and moods. Time will tell.
  
 Fortunately my significant other collects "Charlie Bears", so whenever I have a new bit of gear arrive and she asks the inevitable question, I can answer honestly that it cost me "about 2 or 3 bears".


----------



## connieflyer

You wish I was Connie Francis!   We are about the same age, well who's counting
  
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> I see, you were an aircraft technician. Excellent. So that's where Connie comes from. I thought you're Connie Francis.


----------



## Lord Raven

connieflyer said:


> I am listening to dsd files on the Sony now. Sound great. And just so you don't confuse me with a female, I changed my avatar to reflect what a "Connie" is! Make that Lockheed Constellation, flight crew, electronics technician Hope that clears things up for  you!


 
 Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird Fastest Jet in the World  I am a big fan.. Are you talking about it?


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I have very different musical tastes, so almost all of my listening for the last 10 or so years has been either headphones or in the car.


 
 What do you listen to Spork? 
  
 Meanwhile I have to show @hypnos1 my holy gill. This pair is a stunner.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> What do you listen to Spork?


 
 I listen to all sorts.
 Lots of metal and rock, a lot of indi / alternative stuff. Lots of older stuff, anything from Sinatra to Sepultura,  Black Sabbath to Beethoven, Pixies to Pantera, Neil Young to Nine Inch Nails... I guess probably 90% electronic, 10% acoustic.
 She likes more top 40 / modern music.


----------



## mordy

Hi LR,
  
 Connieflyer is speaking about this airplane -  Lockheed Constellation:
  

  
 This is the Lockheed SR-71:





 The Sr-71 is the fastest airplane in the world, reaching speeds of Mach 6.5 and flying at 90,000 feet. It holds the speed record New York - Los Angeles at 1hr 6min. The engines are still classified, but there are planes on display at aircraft museums. When it took off it was leaking like a sieve, because the metal expanded from the friction of the air, and it had to be refueled in flight.
 It was used as a spy plane and could reach any corner of the world very quickly. It was fired on at least 10,000 times, but no weapon could reach it.
 Made obsolete by spy satellites.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> This is the Lockheed SR-71:




The SR 71 Blackbird was first introduced on the 22 December 1964.

Today, all surviving Blackbirds have now been transferred to museums.


----------



## connieflyer

Not the SR-71. Constellation had four 3450 horsepower wonderful propeller driven engines. She would tap out at about two hundred and twenty-five knots when she was loaded down with six tons of electronic equipment so we were not quite in the same class as an SR-71. Wish I could have flown on one or even been a crewed on one, beautiful aircraft.


----------



## JazzVinyl

For aviation fans:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7xOZVBAWtw[/VIDEO]


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> What do you listen to Spork?
> 
> Meanwhile I have to show @hypnos1 my holy gill. This pair is a stunner.


 
  
 Veeery nice UT...from the look of current prices (!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) - not to mention the basically same ECC32 - I think we were incredibly lucky to get ours a while back.
  
 I could just be tempted to cash in my 2 spares - and would have already if my tube DAC hadn't worked wonders on them...Brit tubes driving Brit tubes never sounded so good, lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(wonder what realistic lifespan these 31s have...if prices keep going even crazier, the temptation just might become too much to bear!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> What do you listen to Spork?
> 
> Meanwhile I have to show @hypnos1 my holy *gill*. This pair is a stunner.


----------



## pctazhp

Yaaahoooo! Much thunder, lightening and rain here on the Scottsdale desert this morning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Elise is sounding so "liquid"


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I listen to all sorts.
> Lots of metal and rock, a lot of indi / alternative stuff. Lots of older stuff, anything from Sinatra to Sepultura,  Black Sabbath to Beethoven, Pixies to Pantera, Neil Young to Nine Inch Nails... I guess probably 90% electronic, 10% acoustic.
> She likes more top 40 / modern music.


 
 Me too. I like a trip down memory lane sometimes. Beatles in the early years.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Veeery nice UT...from the look of current prices (!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 A few years from now and we'll look back and smile. It's been a journey getting into tube rolling and buying these tubes. I bought mine at $100 each and I thought I must be crazy but the price these days are even crazier. The sellers must be thanking you for moving the stocks so quickly. You are responsible for making ECC31 so sought after.
  
 I'll just preserve mine with 5998. These are my most expensive tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Yaaahoooo! Much thunder, lightening and rain here on the Scottsdale desert this morning
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hello Scottsdale, it's raining for the last few days in this part of the world too but with the headphone strap on, all you hear is music.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> A few years from now and we'll look back and smile. It's been a journey getting into tube rolling and buying these tubes. I bought mine at $100 each and I thought I must be crazy but the price these days are even crazier. The sellers must be thanking you for moving the stocks so quickly. You are responsible for making ECC31 so sought after.
> 
> I'll just preserve mine with 5998. These are my most expensive tubes.


 
  
 Y'know UT, along with years of plugging the then (almost) long forgotten C3g, I don't like to dwell upon the $$$$$$$/£££££££ I've missed out on through not following my gut reactions to these tubes and stocking up on the 'cheap'!!...sigh...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Spork67

I've been reading the other 2 threads (not every page!) and am a little overwhelmed by the customisation possibilities offered by this amp.
 Part of it's attraction, for me at least, is the aesthetics. I'm pretty sure I'll be a "one tube per socket" kind of guy - although I wouldn't be averse to maybe using some adapters.
 I plan to spend some time letting it burn in and getting to know it first off, with the stock tubes.
 Once I've done that I'll be asking some questions about "Which tubes will increase the XYZ" or "reduce ABC" in the amp.
 For now my only concern is that I have low Z HPs - my ATH-AD900X are 32ohm, but my fave. Fostex TH-X00s are only 25ohm, which is below the impedence the Elise is designed for.
 My question then, is what tube/s, if any, should I be looking at using for such low Z HPs?
 (And before someone says "Just get some 600ohm T1s" - thats not out of the question, later on...)


----------



## aqsw

spork67 said:


> I've been reading the other 2 threads (not every page!) and am a little overwhelmed by the customisation possibilities offered by this amp.
> Part of it's attraction, for me at least, is the aesthetics. I'm pretty sure I'll be a "one tube per socket" kind of guy - although I wouldn't be averse to maybe using some adapters.
> I plan to spend some time letting it burn in and getting to know it first off, with the stock tubes.
> Once I've done that I'll be asking some questions about "Which tubes will increase the XYZ" or "reduce ABC" in the amp.
> ...




I use El3n as drivers and stock or 6080s as powers to drive my Ether Cs and Oppo PM3s. I dont get distortion till about 1 oclock aftr properly warmed up. This is plenty loud for me.


----------



## HOWIE13

aqsw said:


> I use El3n as drivers and stock or 6080s as powers to drive my Ether Cs and Oppo PM3s. I dont get distortion till about 1 oclock aftr properly warmed up. This is plenty loud for me.


 
 Do you have any idea why the PM3's distort?  They are supposed to be good for max 500mW of power input, which is pretty generous, whilst the output power of Elise is quoted as 200mW.


----------



## Spork67

aqsw said:


> I use El3n as drivers and stock or 6080s as powers to drive my Ether Cs and Oppo PM3s. I dont get distortion till about 1 oclock aftr properly warmed up. This is plenty loud for me.


 
  
 Do the El3n plug righ in, or do they need an adapter?
  
 How well do the stock tubes work with those low z cans?


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Do the El3n plug righ in, or do they need an adapter?
> 
> How well do the stock tubes work with those low z cans?


 
  
 They need this adapter:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Stewart which Beyerdynamics are you using with Elise at CanJam London? Perhaps @hypnos1 should visit the meet again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Shan't be able to make this one alas...I enjoyed our head-fi meet at Cambridge a while back - it was especially great to meet up with heretofore anonymous faces! But as far as assessing different equipment goes, such venues are often _*less*_ than ideal, I fear. I think you can only get a _vague_ idea of performance given the inevitable constraints, especially the high levels of ambient noise...my own Elise, bedecked with Siemens C3g'S's and GEC CV2523s didn't perform anywhere near as well as here at home...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> I've been reading the other 2 threads (not every page!) and am a little overwhelmed by the customisation possibilities offered by this amp.
> Part of it's attraction, for me at least, is the aesthetics. I'm pretty sure I'll be a "one tube per socket" kind of guy - although I wouldn't be averse to maybe using some adapters.
> I plan to spend some time letting it burn in and getting to know it first off, with the stock tubes.
> Once I've done that I'll be asking some questions about "Which tubes will increase the XYZ" or "reduce ABC" in the amp.
> ...


 
  
 Hi S67.
  
 Good idea to burn in with stock tubes for a good while - the amp itself needs plenty of time, let alone the tubes lol! Things can indeed get rather "overwhelming" with all things Elise - dip into the waters gradually...there's a good deal of interesting 'stuff' on quite a few topics from a great bunch of guys (as you've no doubt already sussed LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 OF COURSE I'm gonna say get some T1s...but then, I'm biased!...so get saving!! Several guys have used low-z cans successfully, so even more info/advice should be forthcoming to answer more of your future questions. Good luck with it all...


----------



## tjw321

hypnos1 said:


> Shan't be able to make this one alas...I enjoyed our head-fi meet at Cambridge a while back - it was especially great to meet up with heretofore anonymous faces! But as far as assessing different equipment goes, such venues are often _*less*_ than ideal, I fear. I think you can only get a _vague_ idea of performance given the inevitable constraints, especially the high levels of ambient noise...my own Elise, bedecked with Siemens C3g'S's and GEC CV2523s didn't perform anywhere near as well as here at home...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That really was pretty noisy, but I can still hear a brief 5s or so clip of the 1812, when a gap in the noise appeared, as the second most magical piece of music I have ever heard. The most magical was on a system that cost more than my house did, and it wasn't really that much better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 BTW, good to be back. Came home a few months back to find the house in a mess and all the furniture kicked over. First thing I did was run upstairs, passing the rack the Elise had been placed on, on the way. The rack had been used as a make-shift ladder and was smashed to pieces. At this point I was getting a bit "anxious". When I arrived I found the Elise lovingly placed on a cushion and completely intact. At least the thieves had taste. In fact, none of my audio gear had been damaged in any way. Unfortunately you couldn't say the same for anything else, and in particular anything computer related. I've been spending the interim time replacing everything else, but the computers were low on the list of essentials so, until now, I've only been able to read head-fi (at work), but not been able to post.


----------



## hypnos1

tjw321 said:


> That really was pretty noisy, but I can still hear a brief 5s or so clip of the 1812, when a gap in the noise appeared, as the second most magical piece of music I have ever heard. The most magical was on a system that cost more than my house did, and it wasn't really that much better
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great to hear from you again tjw321...WELCOME BACK! I remember well your joy and amazement when you popped on my cans - you really made my day LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 But sorry to hear of your traumatic house return...one of my worst nightmares, that...But unbelievable your Elise wasn't either taken or smashed to bits out of spite - "gentleman" thief/ves indeed!!
  
 Hope you have good insurance and that everything is back OK now. Look forward to any further impressions/comments you may wish to enlighten us with....CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## pctazhp

Well, things are pretty slow around here right now. So in honor of our US presidential campaign:


----------



## aqsw

howie13 said:


> Do you have any idea why the PM3's distort?  They are supposed to be good for max 500mW of power input, which is pretty generous, whilst the output power of Elise is quoted as 200mW.




I'm sure its not the headphones that are distorting. It is the amp.

I actually believe I have a lemon Elise, as I get distortion on all cans and tubes. Even stock. I bought a used pair of T1s which were in great shape and I even got distortion with them. I sent them back to the guy but had to pay for return shipping.

The only thing that is saving my ELISE from going to a different owner is that 12 oclock is plenty loud for an old timer like me.
It sounds so much better than any other amp I have ever owned. My LC and previously owned Lyr get much louder without distortion but they don't 
compare IMO to the Elise when it comes to pure sonic pleasure at my personal volume level

This has not dissuaded me away from Felix. I am actually waiting and hoping for a fully balanced Elise ii.
Since I have two great dacs I would keep both Elises and probably donate the Carbon to my son.


----------



## mordy

Hi all,
  
 Ever wanted to know quickly the temperature of your tube or amp (without testing with your hand/fingers)?
  
 Here is my new toy:
  




  
 Can you see the red dot on my 7236 power tube? This is a laser beam triggered by the pistol grip infrared non contact temperature probe. Just aim and shoot, and you have a reading. Switchable between C and F - the reading shown is in Celsius for our overseas members.
  




  
 This little baby may be off a degree or two from a laboratory instrument, but good enough and cheap enough - less than $13.
  
 https://www.amazon.com/Nubee-Non-contact-Infrared-Thermometer-Temperature/dp/B00JA3BMDW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1470601961&sr=8-2&
  
 keywords=nubee+infrared+thermometer
  
 You just point it to where you want to measure the temperature, squeeze the trigger, and that's it. There are many interesting uses: Our Canadian members could check if there are air leaks during the cold winters and insulate them, people in hot places can measure the temperature of cold air coming out of air vents and make adjustments for more even cooling, and you could check your refrigerator to find out which shelf is the coldest for the afternoon beer.
  
 And of course, you could point it to the Elise and see how hot it is running. BTW, the 7236 is supposed to stay under C150, so it looks like I am safe....(up to C130 now without my fan).
  
 Have fun!


----------



## UntilThen

I have an an apple Elise because everything works and works beautifully. 
  
 Low Z cans works on Elise much better than I expected. Sennheiser Momentum is low impedance but sounds good on it. I have heard the Fostex TH-X00 at the meet on Elise and it sounds good too. HE560, a low impedance and low efficiency planar magnetic headphone works better than I would imagine. I did detect a bit of a breakup but that is at 2pm on the volume dial. That or my ears are breaking up at that volume.
  
 However, high impedance dynamic headphones are best with Elise. From Sennheisers 300 ohms to the T1 600 ohms, they feels right at home.
  
 EL3N is one funny tube. It works much better than I thought it work. It works better on low Z cans better than 6SN7. That said, 6SN7 and stock power tubes are your best bet with low Z cans. They are the ones FA tested it with when they design Elise to work with low Z cans.
  
 Meanwhile I'm back to hacking and slashing on my game.


----------



## UntilThen

Very nice toy @mordy .  EL3N and 7236 is one of the cooler combo. 6SN7 and 6AS7 at 6.2a isn't too hot either. ECC31 and 6AS7 feels the hottest followed by 6N7G and 6AS7. Of course the 6 pack will stay cool the whole day without affecting the ozone layers.


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> I'm sure its not the headphones that are distorting. It is the amp.
> 
> I actually believe I have a lemon Elise, as I get distortion on all cans and tubes. Even stock. I bought a used pair of T1s which were in great shape and I even got distortion with them. I sent them back to the guy but had to pay for return shipping.
> 
> ...


 
 Something seems off. I spent a lot of time with T1s and never experienced any hint of distortion. It seems to be the headphone of choice for many on this thread and I don't recall ever hearing problems with distortion.
  
 What seems strange is if I had ever attempted going to or above 11 o'clock with the T1 I don't think I would have anything left that resembled functioning ears. Same with my HD800S.
  
 FA isn't always the fastest to respond but as far as I can remember they have always resolved user problems. Seems to me it would be worth contacting them.
  
 As for a balanced Elise, it isn't clear to me that FA has actually confirmed they will be coming out with one, or if they will when that will be. The thing about a balanced Elise is that I assume it will require twice the tubes of the current Elise. Tubes that will push the Elise to top performance are already a little hard to find and often expensive. If I were planning on going balanced (which I'm not) I would already be trying to stock up on tubes - unless I already had a good supply of my favorite tubes (which I don't).


----------



## JazzVinyl

I believe @aqsw did get a lemon Elise. Very surprised he stuck with it, instead of returning it. 
It was obvious right away, that his amp had a serious problem. 

:rolleyes:


----------



## aqsw

pctazhp said:


> Something seems off. I spent a lot of time with T1s and never experienced any hint of distortion. It seems to be the headphone of choice for many on this thread and I don't recall ever hearing problems with distortion.
> 
> What seems strange is if I had ever attempted going to or above 11 o'clock with the T1 I don't think I would have anything left that resembled functioning ears. Same with my HD800S.
> *
> ...




I got ahold of them once. They got back with the usual " how does it sound with stock tubes. Try different phones etc." 

Im not sure if they are coming out with a balanced Elise either. Im just hoping they will, and Im opposite of you and would be first on the list for one.


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> *I got ahold of them once. They got back with the usual " how does it sound with stock tubes. Try different phones etc."*
> 
> Im not sure if they are coming out with a balanced Elise either. Im just hoping they will, and Im opposite of you and would be first on the list for one.


 
 With all due respect that sounds pretty vague to me, and I personally don't think it is appropriate to discuss this kind of issue in public unless the manufacturer has clearly refused to stand behind its warranty. I'm pretty sure that FA replaced @DecentLevi Elise without much problem.
  
 Edit:  When I say "this kind of issue" I am referring just to specific conversations with the manufacturer that imply they are not being responsive.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi all, I'm still around just busier with work.
  
 FA replaced my Elise without any fuss; all I did was send them a detailed explanation of all the troubleshooting I did, which was apparently thoroughly done and they gladly sent a new one. They replaced it in good faith without any photos etc. from me and they didn't even make me go without the old one in the process, sending mine back after I got the new one. I did however send them an audio recording of the defect voluntarily to legitimize my claim.
  
 I would highly suggest going through an extensive troubleshooting phase and outline which steps were done in an email to them... trying multiple power chords, RCA cables, tube combos, headphones, wall outlets, cleaning out the tube socets with both air and a smidget of electrical cleaner, checking input levels, possibly opening the bottom to inspect for signs of burnt parts, etc.
  
 In the case of @aqsw I have a hunch you've been unlucky enough to get a bunch of defective tubes. I recommend trying the above, and new NOS tubes such as GE 6AS7 GA. These sound like crap to me_ (in comparison to better tube combos anyway)_, but at least they're cheap and it's one of the few current-production tubes that are compatible, and just to at least test whether it's the amp at fault or not. (though you'd still need NOS drivers as well)
  
 I've heard FA does have solid plans to release a balanced headphone amp; it will be a successor to the Elise so it may / may not use the Elise name or design, and it's unsure whether it will be released next year or 2018. Seeing the interior of my last Elise though, it does closely resemble balanced topology, so I'd venture to say the performance of the current Elise is not extremely far from a balanced amp.


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> I did however send them an audio recording of the defect voluntarily, to legitimize my claim.




I think this was a smart move, @DecentLevi....


----------



## pctazhp

@DecentLevi  Thanks for the information


----------



## aqsw

pctazhp said:


> With all due respect that sounds pretty vague to me, and I personally don't think it is appropriate to discuss this kind of issue in public unless the manufacturer has clearly refused to stand behind its warranty. I'm pretty sure that FA replaced @DecentLevi
> Elise without much problem.
> 
> Edit:  When I say "this kind of issue" I am referring just to specific conversations with the manufacturer that imply they are not being responsive.




Well with the same due respect thats the answer I got. I never got back to them after that. I really am not that concerned . I love my amp and it getss loud enough for me. I have just stopped tube rolling ( lost alot of money). Even sold my beloved LCd 2.2 pre fazor becuse I thought they were the problem. Just enjoying te music now. 

The guys I sold my Mazdas and 5998s love them. They are not faulty.

Anyways, lets get back to talking about all the good stuff about our Elises.


----------



## HOWIE13

aqsw said:


> Well with the same due respect thats the answer I got. I never got back to them after that. I really am not that concerned . I love my amp and it getss loud enough for me. I have just stopped tube rolling ( lost alot of money). Even sold my beloved LCd 2.2 pre fazor becuse I thought they were the problem. Just enjoying te music now.
> 
> The guys I sold my Mazdas and 5998s love them. They are not faulty.
> 
> *Anyways, lets get back to talking about all the good stuff about our Elises.*


 
  
 Good idea.
  
 So last night I decided to see why so many people extol the virtues of the 5998. 
  
 I put on Beethoven's Moonlight Piano Sonata and combined the 5998's with my 3Cg's as drivers.
  
 Now I understand!


----------



## UntilThen

Howie those were the tubes I use on Elise first. It made a big impression.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Howie those were the tubes I use on Elise first. It made a big impression.


 
 WOW- You hit the jackpot first time. That was so lucky, or did you have prior knowledge of the tubes before you bought Elise?


----------



## UntilThen

Well those tubes were talk of the town then. Flavor of the month. C3g was @hypnos1 pet tubes then.

I had purchased these tubes before Elise arrival in anticipation. Tried those 5998 in my Dark Voice 336se.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Well those tubes were talk of the town then. Flavor of the month. C3g was @hypnos1 pet tubes then.
> 
> I had purchased these tubes before Elise arrival in anticipation. Tried those 5998 in my Dark Voice 336se.


 
  
  It's very interesting I'm using the C3g as drivers with the 5998's and I think, at least for solo piano, which I listen to a lot, they are the best sounding combination I've heard so far with Elise. .
  
 However, I need to compare with the Christmas tree set-up, and for that I guess I will need to move to the earlier forum!


----------



## UntilThen

Christmas tree setup....

Sorry I wouldn't consider anything of that Frankentein build as good. It's a mockery of this amp. I won't mince my words.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Christmas tree setup....
> 
> Sorry I wouldn't consider anything of that Frankentein build as good. It's a mockery of this amp. I won't mince my words.


 
 Well it may mock the amp but it doesn't mock my ears and I would say on cursory listening it sounds pretty much identical to the 5998's, with C3g's as drivers anyway.
  
 I suppose the closer one gets to the best any amp can reproduce the more critical other components become, including the original recording.
  
 What's also fantastic is the volume Elise can achieve without a hint of distortion (110db at times), and the vol knob is barely at 9 o'clock, using SRH 840 this morning as I love it's reproduction of piano tone, though don't use it for anything else.


----------



## ostewart

aqsw said:


> I got ahold of them once. They got back with the usual " how does it sound with stock tubes. Try different phones etc."
> 
> Im not sure if they are coming out with a balanced Elise either. Im just hoping they will, and Im opposite of you and would be first on the list for one.


 
  
 They are planning to release one, next year I believe


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Well it may mock the amp but it doesn't mock my ears and I would say on cursory listening it sounds pretty much identical to the 5998's, with C3g's as drivers anyway.
> 
> *I suppose the closer one gets to the best any amp can reproduce the more critical other components become, including the original recording.*
> 
> What's also fantastic is the volume Elise can achieve without a hint of distortion (110db at times), and the vol knob is barely at 9 o'clock, using SRH 840 this morning as I love it's reproduction of piano tone, though don't use it for anything else.


 
  
 Bang on H13...hence, forget "Christmas Tree" destruction of Elise's sleek design (shan't mince my words either, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and _*go get that tube DAC!!*_...I beg you...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...OK, so a tad more expensive, but far and away the better option in the short _and_ long term. And don't forget, all those multiple 3rd party adapters are always going to be an added extra risk over time...


----------



## ostewart

My current station, which is end game for a while, apart from tube rolling in the future.
  
 Elise > HE-500, natural tone, exceptional soundstage and detail, and I mainly listen to rock/metalcore and they never miss a beat. All I need to do is change the awful stock cable on the HE-500.


----------



## hypnos1

ostewart said:


> My current station, which is end game for a while, apart from tube rolling in the future.
> 
> Elise > HE-500, natural tone, exceptional soundstage and detail, and I mainly listen to rock/metalcore and they never miss a beat. All I need to do is change the awful stock cable on the HE-500.


 
  
 Glad you're obviously loving Elise over Espressivo...and that's before raising her game even further, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...HAPPY LISTENING!...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Bang on H13...hence, forget "Christmas Tree" destruction of Elise's sleek design (shan't mince my words either, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm seriously thinking about that DAC, H1. Little matter of the wife controlling the funds at the moment in our household, unfortunately.
  
 I was lucky Lukasz allowed me to spread the cost of Elise over two months, that meant the payments didn't stand out so much on the credit card bill.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The 5998's do provide great sound. Now I'm going to compare them with the EL3N's as drivers, instead of the C3g's- that should be interesting, and I still have those dual EL3N/6SN7 adapters on their way from Mrs X to try the '6 pack'.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> I'm seriously thinking about that DAC, H1. Little matter of the wife controlling the funds at the moment in our household, unfortunately.
> 
> I was lucky Lukasz allowed me to spread the cost of Elise over two months, that meant the payments didn't stand out so much on the credit card bill.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo H13...keep the good lady *sweet*, lol - whatever it takes!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...will be worth it in the end...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Will indeed be  interesting to see how you find things with the EL3Ns in the driving seat..._*and*_ as powers...
  
 Glad you like the 5998s - would say just wait 'til you hear the GEC/Osram CV2523/A1834s, but have no desire whatsoever to be the cause of irretrievable marriage breakdown!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Don't forget those EL3Ns need a _*long*_ time before they really shine...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## connieflyer

https://www.facebook.com/cnn/videos/10155140713221509/ here you go @UntilThen, for your vinyl collection!


----------



## mordy

Hi CF,
  
 I have the solution for playing the Elise at 94,000 feet and then fall to the earth:
  

  
 The left tube is a sub miniature Sylvania 7963 (the last chain in the development of the 6SN7). Built for ballistic missiles and able to withstand 500G impact acceleration. BUT alas - only good to 80,000 feet....
  
 BTW, you can use them as drivers in the Elise, barring an attack from the Frankenstein crowd lol......


----------



## HOWIE13

I promise I won't mention the 'F' word or Christmas trees again, on this thread.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Yo H13...keep the good lady *sweet*, lol - whatever it takes!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Will let you know how I get on. I'm presuming the EL3N's will be warmer than the C3g's.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Will let you know how I get on. I'm presuming the EL3N's will be warmer than the C3g's.


 
  
 You presume correctly H13..._too _warm for some it would appear! But much depends - as usual - on the rest of the system (in the same way as the C3g is not - as you mentioned - for everyone!). Get everything right, and _both_ can be very hard to beat lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> You presume correctly H13..._too _warm for some it would appear! But much depends - as usual - on the rest of the system (in the same way as the C3g is not - as you mentioned - for everyone!). Get everything right, and _both_ can be very hard to beat lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Isn't it marvellous that sonically Elise handles all these different tubes with such aplomb.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Isn't it marvellous that sonically Elise handles all these different tubes with such aplomb.


 
  
 This is indeed yet another feather in Elise's - or should that not in fact be in _*Feliks-Audio's!*_ - hat. Such versatility still has me dumbfounded...along with a good few others - as you may well have noticed before now!! There's something for everyone with this amp LOL!


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> My current station, which is end game for a while, apart from tube rolling in the future.
> 
> Elise > HE-500, natural tone, exceptional soundstage and detail, and I mainly listen to rock/metalcore and they never miss a beat. All I need to do is change the awful stock cable on the HE-500.


 
  
 Brilliant photography. Love it. What camera and lens do you use? 
  
 HE-500 will be awesome for rock and metal. Glad you like it with Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I promise I won't mention the 'F' word or Christmas trees again, on this thread.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> https://www.facebook.com/cnn/videos/10155140713221509/ here you go @UntilThen, for your vinyl collection!


 

 Pretty sure the aliens would have gone digital.


----------



## connieflyer

Not enough resolution!


----------



## ostewart

untilthen said:


> Brilliant photography. Love it. What camera and lens do you use?
> 
> HE-500 will be awesome for rock and metal. Glad you like it with Elise.


 
  
 I normally use a Panasonic Lumix G7 (downgraded from a full frame Nikon D600 / 24-70 f2.8) but this photo was a quick snap with my Oneplus Two phone, all about the lighting and focus point


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Pretty sure the aliens would have gone digital.




+1


----------



## pctazhp

ostewart said:


> I normally use a Panasonic Lumix G7 (downgraded from a full frame Nikon D600 / 24-70 f2.8) but this photo was a quick snap with my Oneplus Two phone, all about the lighting and focus point


 
 I really have a problem with people like you who have talent. Life just isn't fair 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Seriously, nice photo


----------



## ostewart

pctazhp said:


> I really have a problem with people like you who have talent. Life just isn't fair
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm really not that good,
  
 Haven't done any in a while, https://www.flickr.com/photos/135742064@N05/albums
  
 I also run www.soundperfectionreviews.com which is the main reason I got a good camera, for review photos.


----------



## mordy




----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


>


 
 The Octopus version 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And the SQ???


----------



## pctazhp

The price of 5998s is spinning out of control: http://www.ebay.com/itm/381694481565


----------



## connieflyer

Looks like they are all going nutz!  Maybe I should sell off some tubes, and buy a new car!


----------



## pctazhp

On a completely different subject, 1950 was a good year for vintage tubes and for music. The singing rage, Patti Page:


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> The price of 5998s is spinning out of control: http://www.ebay.com/itm/381694481565


 
  
 Yo pct...and what about ECC32/CV181s, lol?!!!!...basically follow-ons from the 31...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Yo pct...and what about ECC32/CV181s, lol?!!!!...basically follow-ons from the 31...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It's all above my pay grade


----------



## pctazhp

And here's one for @UntilThen
  

  
 http://www.theseekers.com.au/about-us/fact-file


----------



## connieflyer

Instead of Patti Page look for Jane Morgan she had a great voice and she's blonde and blue eyes that makes it sound better


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Instead of Patti Page look for Jane Morgan she had a great voice and she's blonde and blue eyes that makes it sound better


 
 Nice, but Patti Page was one of the singers whose name I first knew as a kid. Difficult to teach an old dog new tricks


----------



## pctazhp

Very nice development. As of today access to My Subscriptions from my PC is no longer slow as the Pony Express. On my phone it's always been as fast as my temper


----------



## connieflyer

Old is just a state of mind, okay, body also.  How about you are only as old as you feel,yea, that doesn't work either, I guess we are just getting old!


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks @pctazhp I've always love the Seekers. Judith has a unique and lovely voice. I cannot get tired of her singing. Who would have known that a working holiday to London, they ended up with fame and fortune. Working class heroes. 
  
 Anyone want to venture on a singing career?


----------



## UntilThen

ostewart said:


> I normally use a Panasonic Lumix G7 (downgraded from a full frame Nikon D600 / 24-70 f2.8) but this photo was a quick snap with my Oneplus Two phone, all about the lighting and focus point


 
 It's amazing how good mobilephone cameras are these days. I shot a scenery with my Samsung S7 Edge and I thought to myself, 'Hey that looks like a Picasso'. Heard a bit about the Oneplus Two.


----------



## pctazhp

For us die hard Elvis fans:
  

  
 See: http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/music/a47425/elvis-in-the-jungle-room/


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> It's amazing how good mobilephone cameras are these days. I shot a scenery with my Samsung S7 Edge and I thought to myself, 'Hey that looks like a Picasso'. Heard a bit about the Oneplus Two.




BTW.
A Lumix G7 is a "real" full time dedicated camera. Not a mobile phone camera....

But your right...phone cameras are scary good anymore. And have made the cover of TIME magazine:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/technology/2012/11/iphone-photo-of-hurricane-sandy-makes-the-cover-of-time/


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> On a completely different subject, 1950 was a good year for vintage tubes and for music. The singing rage, Patti Page:


 
 Vintage sound indeed. Tennessee Waltz is a gem. Many have sung it including me.
  
 Tubes for today are C3G and 5998. If only I could make a recording of what I hear, you'll be impressed. 
  
 Sylvania 6SN7WGT is on the way and I will like to pair it with 5998 for a comparison.
  
 Happy listening.


----------



## JazzVinyl

You can record what you hear....@DecentLevi recorded his strange sounds, sent the file it to FA, and got his amp replaced, super pronto.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOzw1MIh_as[/VIDEO]


.


----------



## mordy

This joke is only for forum members 69 and up - if u r younger u can skip reading it.
  
_A friend of mine has an elderly father in his 90's. Every morning getting up, out of bed, is an ordeal - this hurts, that hurts. One morning he woke up and nothing hurt so he thought to himself: Nothing hurts! I must be dead!_


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Vintage sound indeed. Tennessee Waltz is a gem. Many have sung it including me.
> 
> Tubes for today are C3G and 5998. If only I could make a recording of what I hear, you'll be impressed.
> 
> ...


 
 Glad you liked it. Will be anxious to hear what you think about the WGT. I've been running it with 5998s and loving it )))


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> This joke is only for forum members 69 and up - if u r younger u can skip reading it.
> 
> _A friend of mine has an elderly father in his 90's. Every morning getting up, out of bed, is an ordeal - this hurts, that hurts. One morning he woke up and nothing hurt so he thought to himself: Nothing hurts! I must be dead!_


 
 Old man sitting alone on a park bench crying. Young man sits down and says: "Old man, why are you unhappy?". Old man says: "I'm married to a 22 year old girl, with blue eyes, long blond hair and a body that just won't stop. And we make love three times a day."
  
 Young man says: "Then why in the world are you so unhappy???"
  
 Old man says: "I can't remember how to get home"


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Old man says: "I can't remember how to get home"




Too bad he left, at all...!


----------



## UntilThen

You guys are funny.

I'm watching Rio Olympics 4x200 metres mens relay and there's no pain in their bodies. They swim faster than my walk.

Elise is bringing the commentary live.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Old man sitting alone on a park bench crying. Young man sits down and says: "Old man, why are you unhappy?". Old man says: "I'm married to a 22 year old girl, with blue eyes, long blond hair and a body that just won't stop. And we make love three times a day."
> 
> Young man says: "Then why in the world are you so unhappy???"
> 
> *Old man says: "I can't remember how to get home"*


 
  
 Too much (painful!) truth there, pct!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## connieflyer

Trying the elise again, with headphones, the Sony Haps-1 is much better than the elise through the main amp system. The dsd files are amazing clarity and am really enjoying the Sony. Great build quality, using the app on a tablet is almost to convenient. Changed from the ts 5998's to the rca 5998a's with the 6n7g's (from @UntilThen) the presentation is a little warmer on the senn 800 and am liking whaat I am hearing, listening to Neil Diamond  and sounds quite life like.


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps something from the "80's?


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Trying the elise again, with headphones, the Sony Haps-1 is much better than the elise through the main amp system. The dsd files are amazing clarity and am really enjoying the Sony. Great build quality, using the app on a tablet is almost to convenient. Changed from the ts 5998's to the rca 5998a's with the 6n7g's (from @UntilThen) the presentation is a little warmer on the senn 800 and am liking whaat I am hearing, listening to Neil Diamond  and sounds quite life like.




  
 Hi CF
  
 Do you find much sonic difference between the 5998 and 5998a tubes, using the same drivers, in Elise?


----------



## Spork67

Have many of you guys tries e-stat HPs?
 May I share a story / saga while I'm waiting for my Elise to arrive?
  
 I thought STAX were "out of my price range" - but then I saw a pair of brand new 507s on ebay for a little over $400.
 It seemed too good to be true, but I figured - nothing to lose, with ebay and pay-pal buyer protection.
 If I just didn't like the sound they would be easy enough to sell for that $, or even more.
 So I paid my $ and the wait began.
  
 Of course, Stax HPs are no use without a STAX (or other specialised after market) amp.
 So I did some research and found an amp that ppl. recommended, had the correct output (Stax have a normal or a pro bias) and that would work on Australian 240v power.
 I bought the amp, and started the wait for it to arrive.
  
 Meanwhile, the headphone delivery date came and went. The seller still hadn't even marked as sent, and wasn't replying to messages.
 The ebay refund was initiated and a few days later I had my $ back, and an amp, with no suitable HPs...
  
 I cleaned the dust out of the amp and visually inspected it, removed the casing, sanded and painted it and put it back together.
 I found some 404s on here, in Germany, and bought them. The seller was holidaying in Austria or somewhere  so didn't post for several days. Another week and a bit go by - and they arrive.
  
 Finally, after 2 x headphone purchases, an amp purchase, close to $1000 and about a months wait, I would get to see what all the fuss was about - I was going to hear "The STAX sound"...
 Nooooo..... L) channel is nothing but crackly static, or if I plug into the normal bias outlet it's silent - no static, no sound, no nothing.
 After an initial panic - is it the HPs or the amp? How do i test (with only one pair of Stax HPs and only one amp)? Thankfully some guys over at the Stax thread told me how to test the amp. So today I got a multimeter and tonight I tested. The L) channel on the amp is confirmed kaput...
  
 So, now I will take the amp to local electronics repair shop and hope that they can fix it...
 I've contacted the seller to see if he will consider at least a partial refund to offset the repair cost, since it was advertised as working.\
  
 I haven't heard any more from Feliks since I paid my $ last week, but I believe you guys have had a 6 - 8 week turnaround so I guess I will be notified when it's about ready to be sent.
 I wonder if I'll get to hear e-stats or my new tubes first....


----------



## connieflyer

The 5998a's I am using are these...http://www.ebay.com/itm/172262170880?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT . The 5998's are Tung Sol and from what I see teh ts are more resolving, but at the price they are charging now for the ts, I would not buy again.  The RCA's are pretty close, a little warmer, but resolve very well. I paid  $278 for the pair,,,http://www.ebay.com/itm/182118287082?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT  and now the price is gone up more, so I think I will sell my pair off, as well as some of my other tubes, while the market is hot. Have a spare pair of EL3n's, and others that I will not be using as well as a couple of adapters.  Can always use the cash don't want the tubes to go to waste,  don't use the elise as much now that the wife has passed.


----------



## connieflyer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182118287082?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
@DavidA Waikiki look a little different since the last time I was there....do you know where on the beach these were taken?


----------



## HOWIE13

Quote: 





connieflyer said:


> The 5998a's I am using are these...http://www.ebay.com/itm/172262170880?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT . The 5998's are Tung Sol and from what I see teh ts are more resolving, but at the price they are charging now for the ts, I would not buy again.  The RCA's are pretty close, a little warmer, but resolve very well. I paid  $278 for the pair,,,http://www.ebay.com/itm/182118287082?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT  and now the price is gone up more, so I think I will sell my pair off, as well as some of my other tubes, while the market is hot. Have a spare pair of EL3n's, and others that I will not be using as well as a couple of adapters.  Can always use the cash don't want the tubes to go to waste,  don't use the elise as much now that the wife has passed.


 
 You did well to get them both at that price. Their cost is ridiculous now.
  
 I saw you are using Elise more as a pre-amp but I'm still experimenting with different combinations.
  
 You could make a good profit if you sell those tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

I was using the elise as a pre-amp but after getting this in silver..https://www.amazon.com/Sony-HAPS1-Hi-Res-Player-System/dp/B00FFZCZE4?psc=1&SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-ffab-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00FFZCZE4 I prefer it way over the elise. Using with DSD files this is amazing sound field. Brought much more to the music than the elise, that is why I was trying different tubes with the headphones again. Really don't use the elise or headphones much anymore, may put everything up for sale and just use the main system.  Being alone now, I don't disturb anyone, except maybe the dog, if it gets to earth shaking, (which on occasion it does).  I tried using the sony line out to the elise and then to the main system but the signal sounded degraded compared to just using the sony.  Tubes are getting way too expensive to continue with them, at my age these tubes will outlast me and anyone left after I pass would just dump the tubes and send everyting else to the Goodwill store.  So I may as well sell it all and do a little traveling, would love to get to Scotland one day.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I was using the elise as a pre-amp but after getting this in silver..https://www.amazon.com/Sony-HAPS1-Hi-Res-Player-System/dp/B00FFZCZE4?psc=1&SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-ffab-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00FFZCZE4 I prefer it way over the elise. Using with DSD files this is amazing sound field. Brought much more to the music than the elise, that is why I was trying different tubes with the headphones again. Really don't use the elise or headphones much anymore, may put everything up for sale and just use the main system.  Being alone now, I don't disturb anyone, except maybe the dog, if it gets to earth shaking, (which on occasion it does).  I tried using the sony line out to the elise and then to the main system but the signal sounded degraded compared to just using the sony.  Tubes are getting way too expensive to continue with them, at my age these tubes will outlast me and anyone left after I pass would just dump the tubes and send everyting else to the Goodwill store.  So I may as well sell it all and do a little traveling, would love to get to Scotland one day.


 
  


connieflyer said:


> I was using the elise as a pre-amp but after getting this in silver..https://www.amazon.com/Sony-HAPS1-Hi-Res-Player-System/dp/B00FFZCZE4?psc=1&SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-ffab-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00FFZCZE4 I prefer it way over the elise. Using with DSD files this is amazing sound field. Brought much more to the music than the elise, that is why I was trying different tubes with the headphones again. Really don't use the elise or headphones much anymore, may put everything up for sale and just use the main system.  Being alone now, I don't disturb anyone, except maybe the dog, if it gets to earth shaking, (which on occasion it does).  I tried using the sony line out to the elise and then to the main system but the signal sounded degraded compared to just using the sony.  Tubes are getting way too expensive to continue with them, at my age these tubes will outlast me and anyone left after I pass would just dump the tubes and send everyting else to the Goodwill store.  So I may as well sell it all and do a little traveling, would love to get to Scotland one day.


 
 That's one neat piece of equipment.
  
 It's amazing how much tubes have risen in price in the last year. Even modest 6SN7's and 6DJ8's have risen a lot.  Some Valvo ECC88's I bought for Ember a year ago are £100 more expensive now.
  
 You would love Scotland. Many of the photos posted on this thread are typical of our scenery.


----------



## connieflyer

My Dad's family was from Scotland, wife and I always meant to visit, but her health issues kind of precluded that. If I get there will have to look you up, especially now that Gordon has moved to France.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> My Dad's family was from Scotland, wife and I always meant to visit, but her health issues kind of precluded that. If I get there will have to look you up, especially now that Gordon has moved to France.


 
 Yes that would be great. Best start selling those redundant tubes!


----------



## pctazhp

I just put one of these between my PC and my Bimby: http://www.audioquest.com/jitterbug/jitterbug
  
 But my Bimby is all solid state, so of course it still sounds like total garbage. Sorry @hypnos1 I couldn't resist


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/182118287082?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> @DavidA Waikiki look a little different since the last time I was there....do you know where on the beach these were taken?


 
 couldn't find any link or pictures attached


----------



## JazzVinyl

Let it be smooth...



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMyyW0gzUuI[/VIDEO]


----------



## UntilThen

Sylvania 6SN7wgt is here and looks identical to what I have.

Let me listen first.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Sylvania 6SN7wgt is here and looks identical to what I have.
> 
> Let me listen first.


 
 I've tried many times in the past to unravel the complexities of Sylvania tubes. It's not helped by most dealers describing every tube as a 'chrome dome' or a 'badboy', or even both- which is impossible!
 They are even defining some tubes as having 'badboy plates', no doubt to inflate their prices.


----------



## HOWIE13

howie13 said:


> I've tried many times in the past to unravel the complexities of Sylvania tubes. It's not helped by most dealers describing every tube as a 'chrome dome' or a 'badboy', or even both- which is impossible!
> They are even defining some tubes as having 'badboy plates', no doubt to inflate their prices.


 
 Don't know how this quote of my comment above printed.  Don't know what's going on with my fingers this morning. Apologies.


----------



## UntilThen

I like Sylvania 6SN7s. There are many varieties though. The 'Bad boys' are expensive, so are the 6SN7W but I don't think you need to spend for those.
  
 I have 2 versions here.
  
 Sylvania 6SN7gtb Chrome top

  
 Sylvania 6SN7wgt brown base


 Both are affordable. The 6SN7gtb at about $50 a pair and the 6SN7wgt at about $70 to 80 a pair for near mint condition ones.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Tung Sol 5998 now. Initial impression is very good. Dynamics and tonality are very good. If you can categorize sound as sweet, this would be it. It's vibrant too. Much as I love the ECC31 and 6N7G and EL3N and C3g and FDD20, these 6SN7s with 5998 sounds very good. Just different.
  
 If I had to start again, I'll probably be just buying 6SN7s and 5998, 7236, 6AS7, 6080. It's all you need to get Elise to sound amazing with T1 and modded HD650.
  
 I won't do a thorough comparison between the Sylvania 6SN7gtb and Sylvania 6SN7wgt. Suffice to say that I like both. It's just listening to music now.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm listening to Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Tung Sol 5998 now. Initial impression is very good. Dynamics and tonality are very good. If you can categorize sound as sweet, this would be it. It's vibrant too. Much as I love the ECC31 and 6N7G and EL3N and C3g and FDD20, these 6SN7s with 5998 sounds very good. Just different.
> 
> *If I had to start again, I'll probably be just buying 6SN7s and 5998, 7236, 6AS7, 6080. It's all you need to get Elise to sound amazing with T1 and modded HD650.*
> 
> I won't do a thorough comparison between the Sylvania 6SN7gtb and Sylvania 6SN7wgt. Suffice to say that I like both. It's just listening to music now.


 
 Same conclusion for me with my HD800S


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I like Sylvania 6SN7s. There are many varieties though. The 'Bad boys' are expensive, so are the 6SN7W but I don't think you need to spend for those.
> 
> I have 2 versions here.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'ts good you have ones you enjoy and those 6SN7wgt's sound good value and are good lookers too.
  
 My experience has been a bit hit and miss with Sylvanias unless you just go for the expensive more clear cut types, such as original Chrome Domes (which are even rarer than 5998's) or true Bad Boys, which do crop up from time to time but, as you say, are expensive. Otherwise I find it a bit of a mine-field.
  
 If you take for instance 6SN7W tubes there are early and later versions and three different bases, silver metal, black and brown- each is apparently different in sound.
  
 The one good thing about Sylvania I will say is they usually have fairly clear date codes, unlike some other manufacturers who used secret coding systems.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Same conclusion for me with my HD800S


 
 Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Chatham 6520 sounds lovely on my HD650. It took me 9 months to buy another 6SN7wgt to make it a pair but I'm glad I did.


----------



## JazzVinyl

The 6SN7W do sound superior to all others. I do like the others mentioned here, but the W's seem to dig out significantly more detail, which I like.

Have to be patient, to find a pair that are reasonably priced...but if you get them, you will understand why they are the most desirable (and costly).

:rolleyes:


----------



## connieflyer

davida said:


> couldn't find any link or pictures attached


 

 Sorry @DavidA sent wronglink  http://www.utah3d.net/hawaii-travel/honolulu/waikiki-beach.html,this will work.  Main page is here,http://www.utah3d.net/


----------



## HOWIE13

jazzvinyl said:


> The 6SN7W do sound superior to all others. I do like the others mentioned here, but the W's seem to dig out significantly more detail, which I like.
> 
> Have to be patient, to find a pair that are reasonably priced...but if you get them, you will understand why they are the most desirable (and costly).


 
 Which version of 6SN7W  do you consider the best -metal, black or brown base, or do you think it doesn't really matter?


----------



## connieflyer

Interesting article on 6sn7's for those that have not read it.....http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/6sn7_vt.htm good comparisons and wide group of participants.


----------



## Suuup

So this is where all of you went!


----------



## JazzVinyl

howie13 said:


> Which version of 6SN7W  do you consider the best -metal, black or brown base, or do you think it doesn't really matter?




I only have black base, tall bottle navy anchor insignia, have not heard a metal base or brown base. Some say short bottle black base are the best sounding...?

:rolleyes:


----------



## JazzVinyl

suuup said:


> So this is where all of you went!




Hello Suuup!

Yeah! You found us


----------



## HOWIE13

jazzvinyl said:


> I only have black base, tall bottle navy anchor insignia, have not heard a metal base or brown base. Some say short bottle black base are the best sounding...?


 
 Thanks. I'll keep a look out. Probably be a matter of which crops up first.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Interesting article on 6sn7's for those that have not read it.....http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/6sn7_vt.htm good comparisons and wide group of participants.


 
 Thanks for the link CF. I have not seen this before. Reviewer has stated the tubes as they are and pick the best performers consistent with other reviewers opinion.
  
 I'll borrow this as a quote and find it comforting and humorous that the cheaper 6SN7s will outlast you.

6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you.
 ​
 Also find it humorous what he says about the best tube - the Tung Sol VT-231 round black plates. *If you can't find the music, it's not the tube's fault. *


----------



## connieflyer

At the rate I am going,ice cream in the middle of the desert will outlast me!


----------



## UntilThen

Tony Bennett is 90 and he's still crooning. So is Leonard Cohen.

You're still young mate.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen have you tried the Sonarworks plug in with the T1'S? I had tried it in the past with the 650,and the 750 and liked it. Trying it now with the 800 selected as plugin and it does a great job with these.  You can try the plug in for 21 days as a free trial.  They have the profile for the T 1 as well. .   http://sonarworks.com/headphones/overview/


----------



## UntilThen

Tried Sonarworks once but didn't stay with it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Playing with a new toy now. See if I can get 3D sight and sound. This thing came free after I registered for it 2 months ago.


----------



## connieflyer

I have 3d  vision from the Glenfidich sometimes!  See if you can see her sing...


----------



## connieflyer

Quite a voice


----------



## UntilThen

Bass is strong and solid on Drowning in the Sea of Love. Eva's voice is sublime. All this from using Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Chatham 6520. Impressive.
  
 Guitar strumming and her vocals on Forever is magical. Love it !
  
 Thanks for sharing Eva Cassidy again.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Thanks for the link CF. I have not seen this before. Reviewer has stated the tubes as they are and pick the best performers consistent with other reviewers opinion.
> 
> I'll borrow this as a quote and find it comforting and humorous that the cheaper 6SN7s will outlast you.
> 
> ...


 
 That is a very interesting link. Thanks,CF. Fascinating they recommend mixing different varieties of 6SN7 tubes for best effect.
  
 One potential problem though I think is they are probably reflecting the views of people with many different setups and cans, and some may not  be using the tubes in headphone amps but in amps driving floor speakers and their results may not be so relevant to us. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the link in the text to work to delve further.
  
 Having said that the TS round plate does seem to be a pretty consistent favourite across various websites. My own experience of this tube in Horizon and Ember is that it sounds great, very nice balance between warmth and clarity, beautiful mids and highs, dynamic too, but it's sound stage was not as wide as some tubes and it lacked a bit in the bass compared to some- but still an excellent all rounder and particularly strong with vocals.
  
 I must try them in Elise some time.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> That is a very interesting link. Thanks,CF. Fascinating they recommend mixing different varieties of 6SN7 tubes for best effect.
> 
> One potential problem though I think is they are probably reflecting the views of people with many different setups and cans, and some may not  be using the tubes in headphone amps but in amps driving floor speakers and their results may not be so relevant to us. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the link in the text to work to delve further.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks indeed to @connieflyer for the interesting link. Another good source of 6SN7 info is the Brent Jesse site...for those who may not have come across it yet :
http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
  
 And for those who may be lucky enough to ever find some sleeper ECC31s - the common-cathode version of the ECC32/CV181 - I was encouraged by his comments on the 32...not to mention the old price of $399 EACH, lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...way above even the Tung Sol BGRP!......................


----------



## connieflyer

Wonder what the new price would be?  For this you could buy another elise and have a backup in case it has to go in for service.!


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Wonder what the new price would be?  For this you could buy another elise and have a backup in case it has to go in for service.!


 
  
 That's true enough.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Did you manage to get your channel problem with Elise sorted out alright?


----------



## connieflyer

Not entirely, with all of what has transpired after my wife's death, legal, banking, insurance and government bureau's have not had the time to send it back. If you would, can you  plug in your headphones, and with no signal, applied, could you turn your volume all the way up and see if you hear any hum please?  If you do , then maybe this is normal.  At low to medium volume it sounds good, but past 1 o'clock you can start to here a/c hum.  If this is present on others, then I probably won't send it back to Poland for service. Did have a ground loop, that I found and took care of., thanks @HOWIE13. Good nluck with  the 5998's, nice sounding tubes.


----------



## 2359glenn

howie13 said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the link CF. I have not seen this before. Reviewer has stated the tubes as they are and pick the best performers consistent with other reviewers opinion.
> ...


 

 The Tung Sol round plate it is best to buy or build a 6.3 to 12.6 volt adapter and use the TSRP 12SN7 at less then 1/2 the price.
 It is the same tube with a 12.6 volt heater and most amps can't use this tube so they are much cheaper.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> *Wonder what the new price would be? * For this you could buy another elise and have a backup in case it has to go in for service.!


 
  
 Don't even ask LOL!!... So for us lucky ones who stocked up on the 31s a while back, it looks like we got the bargain of the century...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Get the synergy right with the rest of the system - which increasingly appears to be _*much*_ trickier than one could imagine, and based on a great deal of _*luck!*_ - and I now appreciate this tube much more than I did even at first encounter. Aided by the Tesla E88CCs in the output stage of the tube DAC (and, no doubt, the better implementation of the Sabre 9018 chip), these Mullards are now top notch across all areas that I personally at least find most attractive...viz... (very nearly almost!) the amazing treble/energy of the C3g'S', but with smoother delivery; the bass and mids of the FDD20 and EL3N, but with greater evenness and control (the bass extension, detail and slam surpassing anything I've heard before); clarity/air/separation to please all but the die-hard "nit pickers"!...and all delivered with wonderful, balanced cohesion. Through the T1s, Elise has never sounded this good...but as usual - _given my system!! _





...
  
 ps. As with the EL3N, I'm finding the ECC31 also benefits from very extended burn-in...
  
 pps. If indeed you are as old as you feel, then I must surely be the oldest man alive, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## HOWIE13

2359glenn said:


> The Tung Sol round plate it is best to buy or build a 6.3 to 12.6 volt adapter and use the TSRP 12SN7 at less then 1/2 the price.
> It is the same tube with a 12.6 volt heater and most amps can't use this tube so they are much cheaper.


 
  G1217's Solstice can handle 6 and 12V 6SN7's, which is neat and, as you so appositely point out, cost effective..


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Not entirely, with all of what has transpired after my wife's death, legal, banking, insurance and government bureau's have not had the time to send it back. If you would, can you  plug in your headphones, and with no signal, applied, could you turn your volume all the way up and see if you hear any hum please?  If you do , then maybe this is normal.  At low to medium volume it sounds good, but past 1 o'clock you can start to here a/c hum.  If this is present on others, then I probably won't send it back to Poland for service. Did have a ground loop, that I found and took care of., thanks @HOWIE13. Good nluck with  the 5998's, nice sounding tubes.


 
 I don't hear any hum with either my K702 or HD650 headphones.
  
 There may be differences with USA/UK  mains and voltages and it may depend also on which tubes are being used but I'm sure you have thought of all that. Maybe someone in the States could repeat the experiment incase it's a USA mains issue.
  
 I understand how annoying hums are- once you focus on them you always hear them. 
  
 5998 is indeed excellent- the best single power tube I've heard in Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Not entirely, with all of what has transpired after my wife's death, legal, banking, insurance and government bureau's have not had the time to send it back. If you would, can you  plug in your headphones, and with no signal, applied, could you turn your volume all the way up and see if you hear any hum please?  If you do , then maybe this is normal.  At low to medium volume it sounds good, but past 1 o'clock you can start to here a/c hum.  If this is present on others, then I probably won't send it back to Poland for service. Did have a ground loop, that I found and took care of., thanks @HOWIE13. Good nluck with  the 5998's, nice sounding tubes.


 
  
 Hey cf...with HPs plugged in and _*no signal*_ coming in, I have hum starting at about 11o'clock and getting much louder up from there. But goes as soon as the signal cuts in...then no trouble at all, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Have never been able to go much beyond 11o'clock listening level and stay in the ear-safe zone!


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hey cf...with HPs plugged in and _*no signal*_ coming in, I have hum starting at about 11o'clock and getting much louder up from there. But goes as soon as the signal cuts in...then no trouble at all, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I had a similar hum with a previous amp. As soon as I switched on the connecting DAC the hum went. I think the hum was an earth mains hum which ceased when the DAC's earth, which is connected to the mains plug/socket, became connected to the amp. At least that's what I thought cos when I used a battery to power the DAC the amp would still hum.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for trying that out guys, I appreciate it. Will try a few more things and see. Nice to see it is not an isolated occurance. Don't want to waste that much money sending the amp back only to have them return it and say no hum found.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Not entirely, with all of what has transpired after my wife's death, legal, banking, insurance and government bureau's have not had the time to send it back. If you would, can you  plug in your headphones, and with no signal, applied, could you turn your volume all the way up and see if you hear any hum please?  If you do , then maybe this is normal.  At low to medium volume it sounds good, but past 1 o'clock you can start to here a/c hum.  If this is present on others, then I probably won't send it back to Poland for service. Did have a ground loop, that I found and took care of., thanks @HOWIE13. Good nluck with  the 5998's, nice sounding tubes.


 
 CF:  For what it's worth, with my Sylvania WGTs and 5998s, no signal applied, I can turn volume to maximum and not hear any hum. I think it is pretty much the same with most of my other combinations.


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> Sorry @DavidA sent wronglink  http://www.utah3d.net/hawaii-travel/honolulu/waikiki-beach.html,this will work.  Main page is here,http://www.utah3d.net/


 
 Only picture I could find was of Kahana bay, located on the north-west side of the island, about an hour+ drive from Waikiki, depending on traffic.


----------



## connieflyer

Well have spent the last couple of hours changing out tubes, cables, interconnects, moving amp to other room on different electrical circuit,  and have found that it hums no matter where It is no matter how it is connected. Swapping tubes inand out, hum changes, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on tube combo. I see some of you have some hum others don't,  so I am assuming that it is the luck of the draw.  So far the tubes that sound the best and have the least hum are my Ken Rad VT 231 black glass for drivers and RCA 5998A Gold Aero's for power. This combo delivers strong bass and crystal clear mids and treble, going to stay with this for awhile. Sound is very easy to listen to on the 800's and even tried with my test headphones the Senn hd201 and even these sound just fine.  Good luck, and thanks for your help.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Well have spent the last couple of hours changing out tubes, cables, interconnects, moving amp to other room on different electrical circuit,  and have found that it hums no matter where It is no matter how it is connected. Swapping tubes inand out, hum changes, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on tube combo. I see some of you have some hum others don't,  so I am assuming that it is the luck of the draw.  So far the tubes that sound the best and have the least hum are my Ken Rad VT 231 black glass for drivers and RCA 5998A Gold Aero's for power. This combo delivers strong bass and crystal clear mids and treble, going to stay with this for awhile. Sound is very easy to listen to on the 800's and even tried with my test headphones the Senn hd201 and even these sound just fine.  Good luck, and thanks for your help.


 
 Sorry you couldn't sort out the hum but at least the tubes that give the least trouble are the ones you like best. The combination of your 5998A and K-R VT231 sounds awesome.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> CF:  For what it's worth, with my Sylvania WGTs and 5998s, no signal applied, I can turn volume to maximum and not hear any hum. I think it is pretty much the same with most of my other combinations.


 
 We're both Humphreys. I can't hear any hum or noise with volume to max and no music playing. Tubes used are similar to yours - Sylvania wgt and 6520. I've been listening to this combo for 2 days and liking it, giving my 5998 a rest. 
  
 I've also been using my modded hd650 for nearly a week. I love how this headphone sounds now but switching back to T1 now immediately gives me a distinctly clearer and revealing sound. No contest here. The T1 is an exceptional headphone for details and dynamics. Soundstage? You have to ask. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For those of you who crave a wide soundstage, get a T1 or HD800.
  
 I'm going to stay with these tubes combo for a few more days before switching the drivers to ECC31. I find the best way to discern any differences is when you have become accustomed to the tubes sound signature. It will become so obvious.
  
 Happy listening everyone.


----------



## connieflyer

I agree with your method.  Once you are acustomed to a sound for awhile it is easy to hear the difference. Not sure what to do about the amp now. If I apay to have it shipped back and they don't change anything, because they cannot dupiicate it, then it is a big ship bill for nothing.  Was one of the concerns about doing business direct with no local affiliate to act as an itermediate stop. Won't be doing that again. They wanted to know what the hum sounded like and I told the 60 HZ, ac hum. Still wanted a sample, I don't recall 60 hz hum sounding any different after all these years in electronics. I wish now I would not have given away all my test equipement. Took up room and did not use them for awhile, and young fellow just starting out was happy to have them. Oh well have to decide some time.


----------



## JazzVinyl

connieflyer said:


> I agree with your method.  Once you are acustomed to a sound for awhile it is easy to hear the difference. Not sure what to do about the amp now. If I apay to have it shipped back and they don't change anything, because they cannot dupiicate it, then it is a big ship bill for nothing.  Was one of the concerns about doing business direct with no local affiliate to act as an itermediate stop. Won't be doing that again. They wanted to know what the hum sounded like and I told the 60 HZ, ac hum. Still wanted a sample, I don't recall 60 hz hum sounding any different after all these years in electronics. I wish now I would not have given away all my test equipement. Took up room and did not use them for awhile, and young fellow just starting out was happy to have them. Oh well have to decide some time.




You should be able to record the HUM and send FA a file to hear it. Agree about no local affiliate, I thought of that when ordering from Poland as well. Luckily my amp is one of the quiet ones.

One fellow in these threads also had the nagging hum, sent his back to FA (he was in Europe) who claimed they cleared it up, but when he got it back, the hum was still there. He sold the amp and bought something else and has had no hum problems since.

Enjoy your least humming tubes, until you decide if it's worth it to you, to send it back...

See Ya...


----------



## connieflyer

I read that also, not the first to have hum, distortion problem, considering how few of these amps are out there, makes me wonder.  Starting to think it might be the transformer, noticed that if I left amp on full volume, before I turned it back on with different tubes, sometimes no hum. But after a short time hum returned as soon as volume know was turned. If you look at the number of amps sold compared to the number of amps with problems, not very encouraging, also customer service is not the best.  Realize it is a small company, but as such, they have to try harder, if they want a larger market share.  I would have been more encouraged, except for the abrupt language on the okay to return amp to them.  Being that new, should have been able to just swap it out, like "others have had" Might be time for more online reviews for this amp


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I agree with your method.  Once you are acustomed to a sound for awhile it is easy to hear the difference. Not sure what to do about the amp now. If I apay to have it shipped back and they don't change anything, because they cannot dupiicate it, then it is a big ship bill for nothing.  Was one of the concerns about doing business direct with no local affiliate to act as an itermediate stop. Won't be doing that again. They wanted to know what the hum sounded like and I told the 60 HZ, ac hum. Still wanted a sample, I don't recall 60 hz hum sounding any different after all these years in electronics. I wish now I would not have given away all my test equipement. Took up room and did not use them for awhile, and young fellow just starting out was happy to have them. Oh well have to decide some time.


 

 I don't remember you mention about hum until you've Elise for a while. So the hum came about recently. I think you should still send it back to FA for repair and diagnostics. Give them the benefit of the doubt. They are very genuine in resolving any problems and keeping their customers happy from my dealings with Lukasz.


----------



## connieflyer

Was working very well, and said so to them and they have emails to that effect. They suggested I not insure,and send as a gift as it would be cheaper, and no protection for me in the event of loss or damage.  Not a good idea.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Was working very well, and said so to them and they have emails to that effect. They suggested I not insure,and send as a gift as it would be cheaper, and no protection for me in the event of loss or damage.  Not a good idea.


 
 Didn't I read somewhere FA was going to have an agent/distributor in N.America soon? Maybe another company but I thought it was FA.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I agree with your method.  Once you are acustomed to a sound for awhile it is easy to hear the difference. Not sure what to do about the amp now. If I apay to have it shipped back and they don't change anything, because they cannot dupiicate it, then it is a big ship bill for nothing.  Was one of the concerns about doing business direct with no local affiliate to act as an itermediate stop. Won't be doing that again. They wanted to know what the hum sounded like and I told the 60 HZ, ac hum. Still wanted a sample, I don't recall 60 hz hum sounding any different after all these years in electronics. I wish now I would not have given away all my test equipement. Took up room and did not use them for awhile, and young fellow just starting out was happy to have them. Oh well have to decide some time.


 
  
 Could you borrow or cheaply purchase a digital hand held voice recorder and record the hum by pointing the recorder directly into the headphone cup and send them the file?
  
 Alternatively, you might pick up, for virtually nothing at a second hand shop, an old, small hand held dictating machine with a tape inside. Record the hum and send the dictating machine to them, with the tape inside, for them to play back for themselves. It shouldn't be expensive to post as a small package.
  
 I actually used to have one but it got lost in a house move. I would have happily sent it to you.
  
 If they can accept the hum isn't normal then ultimately they should pay for Elise's postage, whatever is wrong.
  
 PS. Just seen in the User Manual the statement _'virtually no background noise'._
      If you have audible obtrusive hum using their stock tubes then I think you have a strong case that your amplifier isn't working properly.


----------



## hypnos1

For those who may not wish to visit this particular forum...and with good reason!...I should just point out that their member 'Hands' found *NO HUM ISSUE* when trying Elise. He went on to say that he did have such an issue with a different amp, and it appeared to come down to the particular DAC used!
  
 The question of hum is one that still baffles many in the world of hi-fi...professionals, let alone (semi-)amateurs. It would appear that if it isn't down to the tubes - individual or in particular combinations, then _*in most cases*_ it is a mains/grounding issue...that is sometimes _extremely_ difficult to resolve.
  
 As for a 60Hz peak, I suspect that_ during music playback_ this would not generally prove noticeable *in the least*.
  
 If a unit has been returned to FA for testing, and they themselves find no hum issue, then _*in all probability*_ this would therefore indicate some kind of anomaly in the environment where it _is_ being experienced...which is indeed a very unfortunate situation. *This does not IMHO constitute an inherent 'problem' with Elise itself*, and simply indicates that a differently constructed unit may better suit the said anomalous environment...such is life, alas!..._especially_ in our world of often highly unpredictable tube amp behaviour...but can indeed be very saddening/frustrating/annoying LOL!
  
 That my own unit hums _*with no incoming signal*_ doesn't bother me in the slightest...with music playing there isn't the slightest hint of hum (or 60Hz peak!!), which surely is all that matters...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

Good lord I woke up from sleep to read 'hum' has become an inherent issue in Elise as a result of some 'measurement'.
  
 Let me just state that in my unit, send all the way to Sydney Australia, is not a special unit. It's one made the same just like all the rest but there is not a hint of hum, whether 60, 90 or whatever hz. It is so silent at any volume with NO music playing. There is no trace of hum or noise too with music playing, with or without adapters. @Lord Raven has heard my Elise. He can attest to that.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Good lord I woke up from sleep to read 'hum' has become an inherent issue in Elise as a result of some 'measurement'.
> 
> Let me just state that in my unit, send all the way to Sydney Australia, is not a special unit. It's one made the same just like all the rest but there is not a hint of hum, whether 60, 90 or whatever hz. It is so silent at any volume with NO music playing. There is no trace of hum or noise too with music playing, with or without adapters. @Lord Raven has heard my Elise. He can attest to that.


 
  
 My Elise also has no audible background hum problem. Totally silent background as tested yesterday at all volume levels with no input signal.
  
 Though I wish I could say the same for some of the obtrusive audience noises in the background of live concert recordings.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> My Elise also has no audible background hum problem. Totally silent background as tested yesterday at all volume levels with no input signal.
> 
> Though I wish I could say the same for some of the obtrusive audience noises in the background of live concert recordings.


 

 I guess it's annoying in a classical concert but if you cough in a rock concert, no one is ever going to hear you. They won't even hear you if you scream.


----------



## nephilim

Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> For those who may not wish to visit this particular forum...and with good reason!...I should just point out that their member 'Hands' found *NO HUM ISSUE* when trying Elise. He went on to say that he did have such an issue with a different amp, and it appeared to come down to the particular DAC used!


 
 I know, I also read that the guy who did run the measurements did hear no hum himself. A good example that not everybody hears it even though the Elise does emit sound at mains frequency. So I guess it comes down to one's individual hearing. For those less sensitive Elise is an excellent amp. For others like me it's disappointing. But that story is over now.
  
 Have fun


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I guess it's annoying in a classical concert but if you cough in a rock concert, no one is ever going to hear you. They won't even hear you if you scream.


 
 HAHA  Yes I initially typed 'Classical concert' then deleted 'Classical' but I sure understand.


----------



## HOWIE13

nephilim said:


> I know, I also read that the guy who did run the measurements did hear no hum himself. A good example that not everybody hears it even though the Elise does emit sound at mains frequency. So I guess it comes down to one's individual hearing. For those less sensitive Elise is an excellent amp. For others like me it's disappointing. But that story is over now.
> 
> Have fun


 
  
 Could be headphone/tube dependent too. Some may reproduce the hum frequency louder than others.
  
 My X1 and HD 598 cans pick up quiet, non obtrusive hum with two of my EL3N tubes playing as drivers (though no hum when no signal coming from DAC)- but not with my other four EL3N's. I don't hear hum with any of my myriad of other headphones or tubes.


----------



## Oskari

nephilim said:


> I know, I also read that the guy who did run the measurements did hear no hum himself. A good example that not everybody hears it even though the Elise does emit sound at mains frequency.




Apparently at about -70 dB. Not gonna lose sleep.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> For those who may not wish to visit this particular forum...and with good reason!...




Way too polite, C. I could offer much harsher words, but I'll refrain for now.


----------



## Oskari

Music for a Sunday night.


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/euPkapq-ors[/VIDEO]


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Apparently at about -70 dB. Not gonna lose sleep.


 

 Indeed, O...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


----------



## pctazhp

Scottsdale math for this Sunday afternoon:
  
 Celine Dion + Elise (SylvaniaWGT/TS5998) = Pure Joy
  
 Example:


----------



## connieflyer

I was just wondering aloud, if I sold off the elise and all the tubes and adapters, how much I would have to come up with for this beauty...http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/modwright2/1.html


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I was just wondering aloud, if I sold off the elise and all the tubes and adapters, how much I would have to come up with for this beauty...http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/modwright2/1.html


 
 Probably depends on how much you think you could get if you also sold your pile of laundry


----------



## connieflyer

Laundry? Washer broke so I just wear once and throw out get new sturff!


----------



## UntilThen

Whatever makes you happy CF. 

Meanwhile I just watch the fastest man alive win gold in Rio.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> We're both Humphreys. I can't hear any hum or noise with volume to max and no music playing. Tubes used are similar to yours - Sylvania wgt and 6520. I've been listening to this combo for 2 days and liking it, giving my 5998 a rest.
> 
> I've also been using my modded hd650 for nearly a week. I love how this headphone sounds now but switching back to T1 now immediately gives me a distinctly clearer and revealing sound. No contest here. The T1 is an exceptional headphone for details and dynamics. Soundstage? You have to ask.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT.
  
 Still loving my T1s as well...suppose I'll be keeping them LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(just anyone try tearing them away from me!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). Mind you, I sure would like to hear the LCD XC side-by-side - but only here in my home setup...I was mightily impressed with them at our Cambridge meet. For a closed 'phone they sounded amazingly 'open'....then again, could never live with them as they're _*so*_ heavy, alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Your ECC31s were also NOS I think, so perhaps you might also notice further changes with a good few more hours on them...or perhaps  not, lol!...CHEERS!


----------



## UntilThen

I have forgotten to change my tubes, having used the Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Chatham 6520 for 5 days. I kind of forgot about them as I just immersed myself with my favourite music.
  
 However your post came and I very reluctantly change the drivers to ECC31. It's a come-hither moment. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The scale, dynamics and euphony is magnified at least 3 fold. The sound band expanded, not just in width but height and depth. Such is the contrast between Sylvania 6SN7wgt and ECC31. I must confessed I haven't use my ECC31 as much as I should. I have probably just less than 100 hours on them so far but these are classy tubes. My initial impressions of them were woolly and warm but it didn't sound that way now. There's sparkles in the details. It's like fairy dust raining down. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It wouldn't be fair to complement just the ECC31 with what I'm hearing. All this would not have been possible without Elise and the headphones I have, namely the T1 and modded HD650. I couldn't be more pleased with what I'm hearing, even after 9 months.
  
 About time to burn in the ECC31 more but there's still a whole bunch of tubes waiting to be burned in. Valvo C3G, Mazda 6N7G, Fivre 6N7G brown base.


----------



## Spork67

I was expecting to wait a month or more for my amp to be sent - but Lukasz just emailed me that he expects to send it within a week.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I have forgotten to change my tubes, having used the Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Chatham 6520 for 5 days. I kind of forgot about them as I just immersed myself with my favourite music.
> 
> However your post came and I very reluctantly change the drivers to ECC31. It's a come-hither moment.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Must admit I was somewhat taken aback by my revisiting of the ECC31...the _slight_ flaws initially found are there no more - so yes, give 'em a good few more hours burn-in, then try some more before returning to the 31s...should be even more interesting lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. And after that, go get a tube DAC and find not only the 'flaws' righted but everything up a notch or two still!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(methinks you'll need to keep your own better half sweet also, however!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...er no, _very_ sweet, all things considered!...).
  


spork67 said:


> I was expecting to wait a month or more for my amp to be sent - but Lukasz just emailed me that he expects to send it within a week.


 
  
 A very pleasant surprise indeed, S67....GREAT news!...


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1 and @UntilThen. You guys are driving me insane with all these different combinations. I have been seeing a therapist who is helping me to just trust my own ears. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Seriously. It is fun going back and re-evaluating some of the tubes that may have not received enough attention when it seemed like a new tube that worked with the Elise was appearing almost daily. I'm listening now to  my Fivre 6N7G = ECC31 black plates . "with Horn" anno 1942 that I bought last December before I had received my Elise. I tried it briefly and then moved on. It may not be a very good version of the ECC31s, but it is sounding very nice to me. I can't say I would go as far as UT does above in its praise, but I probably have less than 50 hours on my pair, so I will keep them in for the time being. Very pleasant listening experience with the 5998s. I also understand UT's ECC31 is probably a lot better than mine, but sadly prices have gone out of sight (((


----------



## mordy

Remember the 20/31 tube combo?
  
 For the newbies, this is a combination of Mullard ECC31 and a paddle footed FDD20 12V tube. Although two different tubes, they sound very similar and compliment each other very well.
  
 Thoroughly enjoying the sound (using a pair of TS 7236 as powers), listening to an early binaural recording from the 50's. I am using 3 foot tall headphones - sticking my head between my speakers and cranking 'em up. A new definition of nearfield listening?
  
 Sublime. Wall to wall sound.
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn8gLfk-hOM
  
 This is a great recording with a great rhythm section. The timpani sounding drums will be a good test for your system...
  
 Very well recorded and even sounding good on YouTube.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1 and @UntilThen. You guys are driving me insane with all these different combinations. I have been seeing a therapist who is helping me to just trust my own ears.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi pct....by the time we've finished, you'll probably be needing _multiple_ therapists, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Going by the long-held reputation of, and admiration for, the almost all-but-same ECC32/CV181, I suspect the 31 is indeed a good step up from pretty well any other '6N7G/6SN7'. Their prices - although now beyond reason - are a _fairly_ good indication IMHO...and on this subject of uber-pricing, although there is of course always the element of speculation and kudos associated with rarity (and "must have at any cost" mentality), I would venture that over a long period of time _*most*_ keen hi-fiers do in fact equate high quality with high price, and that they are not actually acting out of stupidity/ignorance or irresponsibility, but prepared to steer their expenditure to where they view best _value_...which many may well not regard as best _value-for-money!_ This is, of course, yet another area for subjectivity vs objectivity lol!
  
 Anyway, be that as it may, I really thought I was on to a lovely pair of 'sleeping' almost NOS ECC31s on ebay an hour ago, that I earmarked for either yourself or anyone else interested. Price until the last few seconds *£23!!* Should have known better...in those last few seconds literally, shot to £95 then £102...past my max bid submission. So am really disappointed and sorry that I couldn't have played Father Christmas this time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...perhaps next time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...But actually, I still think someone did pretty well, given the vastly more expensive 32...they did look _exceedingly_ nice/clean tubes...but mustn't dwell on that...BFN...CJ


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I was expecting to wait a month or more for my amp to be sent - but Lukasz just emailed me that he expects to send it within a week.


 
 Good news Spork. You will love Elise. It's hum free down under.


----------



## UntilThen

After more than 9 months, I still find it captivating listening to music with Elise and a great choice of driver and power tubes. With turntable or dac, my setup is ultra quiet when it should be and devoid of any gremlin hums. 
  
 Even with these ECC31s, it's pitch black silence with volume to max and no music playing.
  
 It's great to just enjoy the music without doing anymore critical listening. For all Elise owners, I hope you're doing the same.


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hi pct....by the time we've finished, you'll probably be needing _multiple_ therapists, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks H1. I appreciate your brave efforts ))) Actually the longer I listen to my ECC31s the better they are sounding. Right now I'm listening to this album on Tidal HD: https://www.amazon.com/Must-Have-Mystic-Voices-Various-artists/dp/B00C7GYNRG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
  
 Simply stunning !!!


----------



## UntilThen

@richard89 you need some ecc31 and chatham 6as7g. Faye Wong will sound better.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Thanks H1. I appreciate your brave efforts ))) Actually the longer I listen to my ECC31s the better they are sounding. Right now I'm listening to this album on Tidal HD: https://www.amazon.com/Must-Have-Mystic-Voices-Various-artists/dp/B00C7GYNRG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> 
> Simply stunning !!!


 
  
 Yo pct...if your 6N7Gs were NOS, I suspect they too will indeed sound even better with extended burn-in...and are you pairing them with different powers this time?
 ....
 Sorry if I'm rubbing it in, but I just need to show what a fabulous deal can possibly be had with the ECC31s vs ECC32s...just look at these two photos   :
  
 1. Missed ebay exceptional pair of Mullard NR73s - ie ECC31s, measuring near NOS...£102 final bid (both looking even nicer than one of my NOS tubes, lol!!).
  

  
 2. New entry on ebay...pair of basically same (apart from having the 2 cathodes) Mullard NOS ECC32s...*£600!!!*
  

  
 Know which ones _*I*_ would rather have, even though the 31s need adapters!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...so keep a sharp eye out guys!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## geetarman49

connieflyer said:


> I agree with your method.  Once you are acustomed to a sound for awhile it is easy to hear the difference. Not sure what to do about the amp now. If I apay to have it shipped back and they don't change anything, because they cannot dupiicate it, then it is a big ship bill for nothing.  Was one of the concerns about doing business direct with no local affiliate to act as an itermediate stop. Won't be doing that again. They wanted to know what the hum sounded like and I told the 60 HZ, ac hum. Still wanted a sample, I don't recall 60 hz hum sounding any different after all these years in electronics. I wish now I would not have given away all my test equipement. Took up room and did not use them for awhile, and young fellow just starting out was happy to have them. Oh well have to decide some time.


 
  
  


jazzvinyl said:


> You should be able to record the HUM and send FA a file to hear it. Agree about no local affiliate, I thought of that when ordering from Poland as well. Luckily my amp is one of the quiet ones.
> 
> One fellow in these threads also had the nagging hum, sent his back to FA (he was in Europe) who claimed they cleared it up, but when he got it back, the hum was still there. He sold the amp and bought something else and has had no hum problems since.
> 
> ...


 
 i can commiserate --- noise issues can be extremely frustrating and difficult to resolve ... but ... having an amp with problems is one thing ... paying for and not having an amp is quite another.  my amp is still stuck with customs (60+ days now).  Feliks says Polish Post can't do anything; Canada Post says they can't do anything & CBSA don't respond to either my letter, fax or phone calls ...


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> i can commiserate --- noise issues can be extremely frustrating and difficult to resolve ... but ... having an amp with problems is one thing ... paying for and not having an amp is quite another.  my amp is still stuck with customs (60+ days now).  Feliks says Polish Post can't do anything; Canada Post says they can't do anything & CBSA don't respond to either my letter, fax or phone calls ...


 
  
 That sure is becoming _*totally unacceptable*_, g49...all the more galling because Customs people seem universally to be a law unto themselves and answerable to _*no-one*_...democracy?...*HUH!!!*
  
 Just hope something starts moving soon for you...(do you have recourse to your equivalent of our local Member of Parliament for assistance in matters?...GOOD LUCK anyway!...).


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> That sure is becoming _*totally unacceptable*_, g49...all the more galling because Customs people seem universally to be a law unto themselves and answerable to _*no-one*_...democracy?...*HUH!!!*
> 
> Just hope something starts moving soon for you...(do you have recourse to your equivalent of our local Member of Parliament for assistance in matters?...GOOD LUCK anyway!...


 
  
  


geetarman49 said:


> i can commiserate --- noise issues can be extremely frustrating and difficult to resolve ... but ... having an amp with problems is one thing ... paying for and not having an amp is quite another.  my amp is still stuck with customs (60+ days now).  Feliks says Polish Post can't do anything; Canada Post says they can't do anything & CBSA don't respond to either my letter, fax or phone calls ...


 
 Really sorry to learn of the delay.
  
 Is there a legal limit to how long they can hold onto stuff in Canada?


----------



## UntilThen

My Mullard ECC31 looks similar to the ECC32. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 At US$200 a NOS pair back then, it cost me more than my spare rib. This and the NOS pair of TS 5998 at US$239 are my most indulgent spent on tubes.
  
 Day 2 on the Mullards and they sound as good as they look. It came in a special box with a foam pad.


----------



## frederick-rea

Hello H1. These "cokes" are going to feed an ELISE 53 as well. I loose 3 times an auction like that but this time it was my time. I didn't know that was PCT ho was bidding last one but I was expecting for the last moment to make the last bidding because was that way I lost the first times. Now I'm expecting to find a pair of GEC's to dominate those highs of the C3G's. These are for me a "must" in terms of drivers with only a sometimes wild high frequencies, that I am struggling to dominate. Next time next auction will be for you


----------



## DecentLevi

So what would one say on any sonic differences in general from ECC31 or 32 vs. 5998's; or is it entirely dependent on the brand of each model? And is eBay the only main good source for these?
  
 Yeah @geetarman49 I think H1 was onto something with his suggestion for contacting a higher authority than the customs - essentially go through the grapevine to complain to which ever high governing body deals with national security or the governer of the province where your Elise has been unrightfully held hostage without any valid reason for so long. Or if you're nearby that customs office, visit in person and demand to speak with their highest authority.


----------



## HOWIE13

frederick-rea said:


> Hello H1. These "cokes" are going to feed an ELISE 53 as well. I loose 3 times an auction like that but this time it was my time. I didn't know that was PCT ho was bidding last one but I was expecting for the last moment to make the last bidding because was that way I lost the first times. Now I'm expecting to find a pair of GEC's to dominate those highs of the C3G's. These are for me a "must" in terms of drivers with only a sometimes wild high frequencies, that I am struggling to dominate. Next time next auction will be for you


 
  
 I love the C3g's as drivers, and their 'highs'. They give me the 'buzz' I crave for. 
  
 Headphone matching would be another way of taming the highs, and maybe cheaper than buying some of the tubes being discussed on this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Oskari

geetarman49 said:


> CBSA don't respond to either my letter, fax or phone calls ... :mad:




What?  Surely there must be some kind of an ombudsman! (?) :mad:


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> So what would one say on any sonic differences in general from ECC31 or 32 vs. 5998's; or is it entirely dependent on the brand of each model? And is eBay the only main good source for these?


 
 ECC31 and ECC32 are driver tubes. 5998 is a power tube. You can pair ECC31 with 5998. I have and they do sound good.
  
 For the Olympics in Rio. I love Randy Crawford. Great voice.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Just see Justin Trudeau and start talking Quantum Computing and demand that Elise be released immediately.


----------



## Oskari

Hello, congregation!

My name is Oskari and I have sinned. I have ignored her through the summer season. 

Now the autumn seems to be here. Fortunately, she's still here, too, sounding as beautiful as ever. 

Elise is a trustworthy girl.


----------



## pctazhp

frederick-rea said:


> Hello H1. These "cokes" are going to feed an ELISE 53 as well. I loose 3 times an auction like that but this time it was my time. I didn't know that was PCT ho was bidding last one but I was expecting for the last moment to make the last bidding because was that way I lost the first times. Now I'm expecting to find a pair of GEC's to dominate those highs of the C3G's. These are for me a "must" in terms of drivers with only a sometimes wild high frequencies, that I am struggling to dominate. Next time next auction will be for you


 
 It wasn't me. Good luck with the GECs


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> Hello, congregation!
> 
> My name is Oskari and I have sinned. I have ignored her through the summer season.
> 
> ...


 
 Autumn???? I think that starts sometime in December here in Scottsdale. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Go forth and sin ye not more


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> ECC31 and ECC32 are driver tubes. 5998 is a power tube. You can pair ECC31 with 5998. I have and they do sound good.
> 
> For the Olympics in Rio. I love Randy Crawford. Great voice.


 
 In my next life I want to be a Rio beach stud!!! Hopefully by then they will have the pollution all cleaned up.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> Autumn???? I think that starts sometime in December here in Scottsdale. :mad:




Can't help it! I'm further north than fecking Seward, Alaska!


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Yo pct...if your 6N7Gs were NOS, I suspect they too will indeed sound even better with extended burn-in...and are you pairing them with different powers this time?
> ....


 
 H1:  When I first put the 6N7Gs in I was still using the 5998s. Yesterday I switched to my 6AS7Gs, which in this configuration I like a little better. The 6N7G/6AS7G certainly produces one of best examples of sound quality I've been able to coax from my Elise. It really has the 3D quality @UntilThen mentioned while getting everything else right. 
  
 The more time passes the more attached I'm becoming to my Elise. Cosmetically it screams class and quality in a very understated, unobtrusive way. I am so glad I have persevered with the 1-tube-per-socket approach because I just love how it looks. As I have said before, I don't believe in audio fairy dust, but I do believe FA has imbued it with a secret anti-upgradeitis magic something


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Hello, congregation!
> 
> My name is Oskari and I have sinned. I have ignored her through the summer season.
> 
> ...


 

 Think beach girl. You have miss much...


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp those NOS Fivre 6N7G horn are priceless now. Look after it.


----------



## connieflyer

Finally found a dealer not to distant from home that carries the Focal brand, want to listen to the Elear....http://www.focal.com/headphones/ and see how they compare with the 800's should have enough from the vinyl sales to cover them. Found a store that buys the vinyl and cd's so have to load up and drive them down to them.  Having spent hours this week swapping tube combo's could not figure out what I was missing from my earlier experience with elise amp.  And figured I know it is blasphemous but put the 6 pack El3N's back in, now I know what I was missing.  The sound stage is huge and enveloping. Detail and clarity. While I like almost all the tube combo[s I have tried, these are just what the (ear) doctor ordered. I suppose I should go back to the other elise thread now that I am not just a four tuber, but these open up the 800's potential so much.  If the Focal's are good I will get them and compare, but his combo is a keeper.


----------



## UntilThen

CF glad you've found a place to sell off your vinyls and CDs.

Contemplating Focal Elear? Enjoy let us know how that goes.

Also happy you've found your fav combo.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Finally found a dealer not to distant from home that carries the Focal brand, want to listen to the Elear....http://www.focal.com/headphones/ and see how they compare with the 800's should have enough from the vinyl sales to cover them. Found a store that buys the vinyl and cd's so have to load up and drive them down to them.  Having spent hours this week swapping tube combo's could not figure out what I was missing from my earlier experience with elise amp.  And figured I know it is blasphemous but put the 6 pack El3N's back in, now I know what I was missing.  The sound stage is huge and enveloping. Detail and clarity. While I like almost all the tube combo[s I have tried, these are just what the (ear) doctor ordered. I suppose I should go back to the other elise thread now that I am not just a four tuber, but these open up the 800's potential so much.  If the Focal's are good I will get them and compare, but his combo is a keeper.


 
  
  
 By coincidence I did the opposite to you yesterday and went down in size finding wonderful synergy between my 5998 tubes and my old 6DJ8 types as drivers.
  
 Minimalist looks but sweet, sweet sound, like I've never heard this class of tube produce before.
  
 First off I'm having great difficulty differentiating the C3g's from Tesla E88CC's
  
 Mullards clear and warm.
  
 Brimar similar to Mullard, a bit faster and cooler. 
  
 GE Dark Glass, great bass, close and intimate, voluptuous and embracing sound.
  
 All readily available and not expensive. Will roll several more over next few days.
  
 I thought these tubes, originally designed for scientific, military and medical use, were confined to the cupboard, but Elise has brought them to life.
  
 So glad I kept them.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well, @connieflyer, I hope not to cause misfortunune by this, but here it goes - I've spent several listening sessions comparing the Focal Elear to Focal Utopia, and found the Utopia Elear to be a lesser performer than the HD 800, and the Utopia to be vastly superior enough to justify $4,000. I plan to purchase it when I can, and I've also tested the Utopia to be a wonderful pairing with the Elise, when I tried it with mine. The Elear struck me as a virtually identical signature as the original HD-800, yet with smaller soundstage and not quite as much upper highs. The Utopia on the other hand is aptly named, and in a class all of it's own. It is the best headphone I've ever tried, second to the multi-thousand SR-009 electrostat and the ultra-rare Sony MDR-R10.
  


decentlevi said:


> To me, comparisons between the Elear and the Utopia reveals how artificial the Elear sounds in comparison, especially in bass definition and hyper realism. IMO, the extra cost of the Utopia is worth it, especially if it's something that can make you happy every day. It's like the HD-800 compared to the SR-009. And in fact, I'd say the Utopia's sound signature is like a cross between both the HD 800 and SR-009. I'd say, go all the way, or get nothin' at all. Make your purchase count


 
  
 The above was one of my quotes from the SF 2016 meet impressions, and you can read more here which also includes others who have tried both.
  

 I would say this guy's look sums up their sound quite well:

  
 Here's a review
 http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/25/12270918/focal-utopia-premium-headphones-elear-review


----------



## ostewart

My Elise did well at CanJam London and still has the stock tubes, I have got to write the review at some point but the Elise is so enjoyable.

Unfortunately i cannot afford to keep her, and after reviewing I will have to send her back and stick with my trusty Espressivo.


----------



## UntilThen

^^ There's something about a turntable, Elise and a full size headphone. It's vintage looks and analogue sound should stoke some nostalgic fire in your belly.
  
 It's a shame you have to return Elise, Steward but we all will navigate a different road less travelled. Here's to just enjoying music.


----------



## UntilThen

Inspired to play Six Blade Knife from Dire Straits album. There's something about vinyl.


----------



## HOWIE13

Quote:
  
  


ostewart said:


> My Elise did well at CanJam London and still has the stock tubes, I have got to write the review at some point but the Elise is so enjoyable.
> 
> Unfortunately i cannot afford to keep her, and after reviewing I will have to send her back and stick with my trusty Espressivo.


 
  
 Not surprising Elise excelled at London.
  
 I'm sorry I couldn't make it and meet you. At the last minute I felt it would be too painful a journey for my sciatica, travelling 5 hours by train and then around London. Air travel would have been almost as difficult too.
  
 Espressivo is great anyway. I've found using C3gs as power tubes and 6SN7 tubes as drivers sounds exceptionally good.
  
 I don't know if FA would approve but it sounds so good it's hard to imagine the electrics are too far out of reference.
  
 The amp is a real steal at it's price sounding like this. It's good with stock tubes anyway and there are loads of 6DJ8's to roll.


----------



## hypnos1

frederick-rea said:


> Hello H1. These "cokes" are going to feed an ELISE 53 as well. I loose 3 times an auction like that but this time it was my time. I didn't know that was PCT ho was bidding last one but I was expecting for the last moment to make the last bidding because was that way I lost the first times. Now I'm expecting to find a pair of GEC's to dominate those highs of the C3G's. These are for me a "must" in terms of drivers with only a sometimes wild high frequencies, that I am struggling to dominate. Next time next auction will be for you


 
  
 Congrats on getting the ECC31s, f-r...you won't be disappointed - they pair very well indeed with your Chathams...(don't forget to give them a good long burn-in!).
  
 Much as I personally believe there is probably no power tube to match the GEC 6AS7G variants - in our setups at least, if not _all!_ - I have to admit that unless you're _unbelievably_ lucky to discover a pair of 'sleepers', their now horrendous prices can be hard to justify unless one is nicely flush...would hate to be the cause of household mutiny and/or bankruptcy LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...but GOOD LUCK in your searches anyway, mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> H1:  When I first put the 6N7Gs in I was still using the 5998s. Yesterday I switched to my 6AS7Gs, which in this configuration I like a little better. The 6N7G/6AS7G certainly produces one of best examples of sound quality I've been able to coax from my Elise. It really has the 3D quality @UntilThen mentioned while getting everything else right.
> 
> The more time passes the more attached I'm becoming to my Elise. Cosmetically it screams class and quality in a very understated, unobtrusive way. I am so glad I have persevered with the 1-tube-per-socket approach because I just love how it looks. As I have said before, I don't believe in audio fairy dust, but I do believe FA has imbued it with a secret anti-upgradeitis magic something


 
  
 As @UntilThen says, pct....KEEP 'EM, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 As for Elise's looks, sometimes I drool over other fancier-looking models but then, when I gaze back to my own setup I think...no - 'simple', sophisticated elegance wins out LOL!...especially when also delivering such wonderful sound!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

Hey @connieflyer...given the circumstances, I'm sure no-one is going to blast you for enjoying your 6xEL3N setup. Just glad the JOY is back for you...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and at least it isn't a 'Christmas Tree' job, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Wreckgar7

hypnos1 said:


> Congrats on getting the ECC31s, f-r...you won't be disappointed - they pair very well indeed with your Chathams...(don't forget to give them a good long burn-in!).
> 
> Much as I personally believe there is probably no power tube to match the GEC 6AS7G variants - in our setups at least, if not _all!_ - I have to admit that unless you're _unbelievably_ lucky to discover a pair of 'sleepers', their now horrendous prices can be hard to justify unless one is nicely flush...would hate to be the cause of household mutiny and/or bankruptcy LOL!! :eek: :wink_face: ...but GOOD LUCK in your searches anyway, mon ami... ...



I just got a pair of the GEC 6as7g NOS for 240$, used with EL3N as drivers and modded hd650 they sure are sweet  only have about 4 hours on them so just enjoying now. @hypnos1 do you remember there being any major improvements when burning these in? Cuz that would defintly be a happy surprise, they sound amazing as is now


----------



## UntilThen

wreckgar7 said:


> I just got a pair of the GEC 6as7g NOS for 240$, used with EL3N as drivers and modded hd650 they sure are sweet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You lucky beast. Congrats. That's a good price. How did you get NOS for that price? Seller had one too many?


----------



## Wreckgar7

untilthen said:


> You lucky beast. Congrats. That's a good price. How did you get NOS for that price? Seller had one too many?



I do feel quite lucky getting those for a "fair" price, some tube prices are defintly getting out of hand :/ i actually won them on a a swedish auction site, easier to get good price if you compare to ebay although the range of supply is not as Great


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hey @connieflyer...given the circumstances, I'm sure no-one is going to blast you for enjoying your 6xEL3N setup. Just glad the JOY is back for you...CHEERS!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's only one layer short of a Christmas tree. LOL


----------



## HOWIE13

Just thinking generally, do we tube rollers really believe a lot of sellers when they describe their tubes as NOS?
  
 I mean, how do they know if a 60 year old tube has been used or not, and how accurate is their testing equipment- if they actually test the tubes at all?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Finally found a dealer not to distant from home that carries the Focal brand, want to listen to the Elear....http://www.focal.com/headphones/ and see how they compare with the 800's should have enough from the vinyl sales to cover them. Found a store that buys the vinyl and cd's so have to load up and drive them down to them.  Having spent hours this week swapping tube combo's could not figure out what I was missing from my earlier experience with elise amp.  And figured I know it is *blasphemous *but put the 6 pack El3N's back in, now I know what I was missing.  The sound stage is huge and enveloping. Detail and clarity. While I like almost all the tube combo[s I have tried, these are just what the (ear) doctor ordered. I suppose I should go back to the other elise thread now that I am not just a four tuber, but these open up the 800's potential so much.  If the Focal's are good I will get them and compare, but his combo is a keeper.


 
 Just say 6 Hail Marys and send me all your records and CDs


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Just thinking generally, do we tube rollers really believe a lot of sellers when they describe their tubes as NOS?
> 
> I mean, how do they know if a 60 year old tube has been used or not, and how accurate is their testing equipment- if they actually test the tubes at all?


 
 I've bought most of my tubes on Ebay. I depend primarily on the seller's reputation, the appearance of the tube and any information provided. I also check return policy. I haven't bought any bad tubes yet, but have no way of knowing if a particular tube really is NOS. I don't worry about it too much.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I've bought most of my tubes on Ebay. I depend primarily on the seller's reputation, the appearance of the tube and any information provided. I also check return policy. I haven't bought any bad tubes yet, but have no way of knowing if a particular tube really is NOS. I don't worry about it too much.


 
 I'm the same as you, mainly as it's so easy to buy on eBay, especially from the UK where there are only a few specialist tube sellers, always making sure there is a return policy.
  
 I have a small tester for 6DJ8 and 6SN7 tubes but it doesn't work for most others, including 6AS7 tubes.


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 I think I remember trying 6DJ8 family tubes and getting a lot of hum - u don't have any such problems?


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> I think I remember trying 6DJ8 family tubes and getting a lot of hum - u don't have any such problems?


 
  
 The several I have so far tried are very quiet, free of hum and the microphonics that plague some of the larger tubes.
  
 Mind you, I have not suffered any of the type of hum problems that have bedeviled a few other people here, so maybe my set-up is less prone to hum problems anyway.
  
 On the other hand, I did have hum issues with the occasional tube in Ember and even used a makeshift Faraday cage- which even worked!! LOL


----------



## hypnos1

wreckgar7 said:


> I just got a pair of the GEC 6as7g NOS for 240$, used with EL3N as drivers and modded hd650 they sure are sweet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 WOT?...you got a pair of NOS GECs for WHAT?!!!... Do you realise the usual price is more than that just for _*one?!*_ Boy, did you strike gold!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...WELL DONE! Please give us a photo, 'cos I still can't believe it LOL...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(obviously not too many tube aficianados in Sweden...lucky for _you!_).
  
 They do indeed pair extremely well with the EL3N and yes, as with nearly all tubes, they too will get even better with up to 100 hours' burn-in...or even longer! And those EL3Ns certainly improve well beyond the 100hrs....
  
 ps. Perhaps that auction site might just turn up some nice ECC31s some time...or even 32s (that wouldn't need adapters, lol)...keep a sharp lookout!...
 pps. Please keep us informed as to how things progress...CHEERS!...


----------



## pctazhp

Mr. Speakers new Ether Flow and C Flow are receiving a lot of buzz here on HeadFi. Who among us will be the first to try one of them with Elise???


----------



## JazzVinyl

I hope @UntilThen did not forget to go see the acoustic guitar player: Trace Bundy in Sydney, last Aug 12...


----------



## Wreckgar7

hypnos1 said:


> WOT?...you got a pair of NOS GECs for WHAT?!!!... Do you realise the usual price is more than that just for _*one?!*_ Boy, did you strike gold!!  ...WELL DONE! Please give us a photo, 'cos I still can't believe it LOL...:wink_face: :bigsmile_face: ...(obviously not too many tube aficianados in Sweden...lucky for _you!_).
> 
> They do indeed pair extremely well with the EL3N and yes, as with nearly all tubes, they too will get even better with up to 100 hours' burn-in...or even longer! And those EL3Ns certainly improve well beyond the 100hrs....
> 
> ...







Riiight, i know? When a chance like that shows itself u cant pass  yeah those EL3N sure are something special. Im waiting on my c3g adapters, should be here next week, hope theyre as good as they were in my little dot mkivse  
Btw, any recommendations for a 6sn7 tube for a resonable price? 

OH, i just realized there are other swedes lurking in this forum, maby thats the end of getting good deals on tubes


----------



## oshipao

wreckgar7 said:


> Riiight, i know? When a chance like that shows itself u cant pass  yeah those EL3N sure are something special. Im waiting on my c3g adapters, should be here next week, hope theyre as good as they were in my little dot mkivse
> Btw, any recommendations for a 6sn7 tube for a resonable price?
> 
> OH, i just realized there are other swedes lurking in this forum, maby thats the end of getting good deals on tubes




I am envious,

I have watched the listings on tradera from time to time but not found anything of interest. You are one lucky Elise owner  

But I am quite happy with my set up so far, and those Ken Rads... Mmm, Liquid gold I say.

Hey I have missed a lot of new posts since the last time. Need to catch up ☝

And to the old guard: hypnos1, UT, pctazhp, connieflyer and JazzVinyl

I hope all Is well and that you enjoy the heck out of the old gal


----------



## UntilThen

wreckgar7 said:


> Riiight, i know? When a chance like that shows itself u cant pass
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Those GEC 6AS7G sure does look NOS. Even comes with original boxes. I will give you 250 pounds for them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Good find indeed.
  
 c3g does sound amazing in Elise. After this week is over with the ECC31, I'll roll with the c3g for a week. That's my weekly rotation. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@JazzVinyl I did forget to see Trace Bundy. Been too busy posting here.


----------



## geetarman49

hypnos1 said:


> That sure is becoming _*totally unacceptable*_, g49...all the more galling because Customs people seem universally to be a law unto themselves and answerable to _*no-one*_...democracy?...*HUH!!!*
> 
> Just hope something starts moving soon for you...(do you have recourse to your equivalent of our local Member of Parliament for assistance in matters?...GOOD LUCK anyway!...).


 
  
 yes, contacting my local MP will be my final course of action ... but i currently have another letter on its way & i'll give this a few more days to see if it leads anywhere.
  


howie13 said:


> Really sorry to learn of the delay.
> 
> Is there a legal limit to how long they can hold onto stuff in Canada?


 
  
 thnx, Howie.
  
 they are supposed to either permit entry or refuse entry within 30 days of notification.  if entry is refused, they return the item to canada post for disposal/return.  i received a notification on june 20 requesting copies of invoice and receipts to which i responded on june  24th via post.  after numerous attempts to contact them, i followed up with a fax (via local post agent) with the same info on july 18th.  ... no response to anything & canada post tracking says item is still logged with customs.
  
 what's more galling is that our pm recently signed an agreement to foster more trade with poland ... huh!


----------



## hypnos1

wreckgar7 said:


> Riiight, i know? When a chance like that shows itself u cant pass
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 OK, OK...so you didn't get fooled by those "Made in England" Russian imposters...I've turned a rather nice shade of green now!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...WELL DONE!!...bargain of the Century...(but yikes - holding both of 'em like that in one hand?..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...mine would be shaking like crazy, lol - I have to cradle them _one_ at a time in _both_ hands!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and _still_ they shake!...).
  
 Fear not re the C3gs...Elise loves them even more than my own MKIVSE did - but can be tricky if using bright cans (although you obviously didn't have such trouble with your LD so you should be fine with them in Elise. Quite a different sound to the EL3Ns...will be interesting to hear your impressions later on.
  
 As for 'reasonably' priced 6SN7s, the better ones are now not so reasonable alas. The Sylvania 6SN7WGT seems to be getting a good bit of love recently, at a better price than the generally well-regarded VT231 varieties.But to be honest, as you like the EL3N sound I suspect you would have to spend a fair bit to be further impressed. There are also few tubes that will better the C3g! Your own findings will give a better idea as to whether there's likely to be anything else worth trying...so keep us informed, lol!


----------



## hypnos1

oshipao said:


> I am envious,
> 
> I have watched the listings on tradera from time to time but not found anything of interest. You are one lucky Elise owner
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good to hear from you again oshipao, and that you are still happy with your own 'old gal'...sure still am with my own, which of course is the oldest gal in town LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. In fact have fallen in love all over again now I have my new tube DAC!
  
 Good luck with the catching up...can't turn your back for a second! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## geetarman49

decentlevi said:


> So what would one say on any sonic differences in general from ECC31 or 32 vs. 5998's; or is it entirely dependent on the brand of each model? And is eBay the only main good source for these?
> 
> Yeah @geetarman49 I think H1 was onto something with his suggestion for contacting a higher authority than the customs - essentially go through the grapevine to complain to which ever high governing body deals with national security or the governer of the province where your Elise has been unrightfully held hostage without any valid reason for so long. Or if you're nearby that customs office, visit in person and demand to speak with their highest authority.


 
  
 thnx DL; i will be doing this via my Member of Parliament if my current letter doesn't evoke a response ..
  


oskari said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 one would think that a change in gov't might lead to an improvement in services, but it's not to be ...  
 10 yr ago, it was easy to actually speak to someone of authority at canada post hq regarding status of international shipments including those currently in customs, but not today.  it's like we're gradually sinking into this myopic dystopia.
  
 my t1 is gathering dust ...


----------



## HOWIE13

There are some 6SN7 tubes which are about as warm and close to the sound of EL3Ns.
  
 The obvious one is Sylvania 6SN7GT, the original 'Chrome Dome', but it's difficult to find and there are lots of tubes masquerading as 'Chrome Domes' out there.
  
 Sylvania 'Bad Boy' has the warmth in the bass and mids, actually deeper, stronger bass than EL3N's and the treble is a bit more lively, but again, there are very many imposters.
  
 There is also a Tung-Sol 'mouse ears' which is a bit less expensive and more readily sourced. It's a nice, well balanced, warm 6SN7, 
  
 The much mentioned K-R VT 231 is a very good tube, with rightly famous bass, but I sometimes find the mids a bit reticent for my needs.
  
 There will be plenty others but these are a few I've used with my HD600/650, AKG 702, HE400 and a few other cans too, with Elise.
  
 Another tube close to EL3N is a 6F8G. It's a semi Frankenstein tube and is on the recommended tube list in the Elise user manual but, as with EL3N's, you will need an adapter.
  
 I'm listening with it just now and it has a weighty, rich tone coupled with 5998's.


----------



## Wreckgar7

Thanks alot for The recommendations guys  its probably gonna be a while until i buy more tubes, even though i got the GEC for a really Nice price they still set me back a bit financialy  
So now ill just sit back and enjoy music  

Got some sad News though, im selling my Beyerdynamic T1 1 gen.. Dont get me wrong they are Great headphones and pairs excellent with the Elise, but since im suffering from tinnitus i noticed it got worse after long listening sessions with the T1 unfortunately :/
But on the bright side, going back to my modded hd650 i realized how f-in amazing these cans are, really loving them, so not bitter at all


----------



## HOWIE13

wreckgar7 said:


> Thanks alot for The recommendations guys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's a great shame but it's very wise of you to have acted on the tinnitus to allow it to resolve.
  
 Sitting back and enjoying the music sounds a great idea! 
  
 Not for nothing have those Senns, in some shape or form, been going strong for almost twenty years.


----------



## Spork67

I'm looking at maybe some new HPs to try. (Probably cheaper than rolling tubes!)
 Has anyone here used HE-400i with the Elise?
 I'd like to try some planars, and have read a couple of reviews that indicate the 400i would be a better match for the music I enjoy than the HE-560. (Which is good because they cost less, and while I love the look of wood HPs, decorative laminate does_ not_ rock my world)
 My other option is keep saving and snaffle some used T1's for a fair price, as a lot of you seem to really enjoy that pairing, and I think they will likely be my ultimate dynamic HP.


----------



## UntilThen

wreckgar7 said:


> Got some sad News though, im selling my Beyerdynamic T1 1 gen.. Dont get me wrong they are Great headphones and pairs excellent with the Elise, but since im suffering from tinnitus i noticed it got worse after long listening sessions with the T1 unfortunately :/
> But on the bright side, going back to my modded hd650 i realized how f-in amazing these cans are, really loving them, so not bitter at all


 
 You wouldn't believe it but I have been using my modded HD650 90% of the time in the last week. T1 is having a rest.
  
 They are amazing indeed, especially after the mod. Comfort is really good too. HD650 fits my head and ears really well. So enjoy the Senns .


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> There are some 6SN7 tubes which are about as warm and close to the sound of EL3Ns.
> 
> The obvious one is Sylvania 6SN7GT, the original 'Chrome Dome', but it's difficult to find and there are lots of tubes masquerading as 'Chrome Domes' out there.
> 
> ...


 

 6SN7 will never sound similar to EL3N or ECC31. Some varieties of 6SN7 may exhibit the warm and lushness but they will not have the BIG spacious sound that EL3N and ECC31 has. 
  
 I did not state a preference but just pointing out the difference.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> 6SN7 will never sound similar to EL3N or ECC31. Some varieties of 6SN7 may exhibit the warm and lushness but they will not have the BIG spacious sound that EL3N and ECC31 has.
> 
> I did not state a preference but just pointing out the difference.


 
 Yes I agree, EL3N has a more spacious sound-stage than any 6SN7 I've ever heard too. I was really just comparing the quality of the sound.


----------



## Spork67

My Elise left Poland today.


----------



## UntilThen

Bound for Tasmania  I hope you have some spare tubes ready.


----------



## Spork67

Have resisted to now...
 I'm sure the time will come.
 I want to try a couple more HPs first, and the budget only goes so far...


----------



## UntilThen

Almost one week with ECC31 and Chatham 6520. Today I decide to switch to EL3N and 7236. I have not heard EL3N for *2 weeks*.
  
 As much as I have enjoyed the ECC31/6520, I'm really loving what I hear from EL3N/7236. 
  
 EL3N sounds even more spacious than ECC31. Coupled with 7236 tight bass, it's a very enjoyable combination. EL3N is only a fraction of ECC31 cost. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I know there are a few that love this combination. @mordy does. Enjoy


----------



## Spork67

Is the EL34 the equivalent of the EL3N, or just similar?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Almost one week with ECC31 and Chatham 6520. Today I decide to switch to EL3N and 7236. I have not heard EL3N for *2 weeks*.
> 
> As much as I have enjoyed the ECC31/6520, I'm really loving what I hear from EL3N/7236.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo UT...certainly has to be one of the (if not _the!_) best bang-for-buck tubes around - just needs to be in a system that isn't too _*dark*_ LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...and certainly my favourite before the tube DAC arrived and worked its extra magic on the ECC31s...still amazes me how different interactions within a system can have such varying effects - especially when tubes are involved...blessing or blight??!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...sometimes I wonder if Elise isn't in fact a tad _too_ versatile, lol!!...(wouldn't have it any other way, though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Am enjoying more than ever...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Almost one week with ECC31 and Chatham 6520. Today I decide to switch to EL3N and 7236. I have not heard EL3N for *2 weeks*.
> 
> As much as I have enjoyed the ECC31/6520, I'm really loving what I hear from EL3N/7236.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT
 Could you, or anyone else, tell me the difference between an ECC31 and a 6N7 tube?
  
 Are they very different sonically or is the ECC31 just Mullard's version of a 6N7 in a coke shaped bottle with a slightly higher current draw? 
  
 Am I correct in assuming both tubes can use the same adapter?
  
 Thanks for any help. I have some 6N7 tubes which are very nice tubes in Elise but I suspect the Mullards are something special from what I'm reading. Cheers.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Is the EL34 the equivalent of the EL3N, or just similar?


 
  
 I think EL33 is an octal base electrical equivalent to EL3N, but no idea if it would be suitable for Elise.
  
 Don't know for sure about EL34, it's probably not equivalent.
  
 I would imagine if either of these worked in Elise someone would have tried them by now.


----------



## Spork67

This add is the reason I asked - was assuming the tubes pictured were the EL34 - but I could well be wrong...
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806153/fs-tubes-mullard-el34-fdd20-prices-updated


----------



## UntilThen

I'll start by saying that a 6N7G does not sound like a 6N7, even though they are of the same family. 6N7 sounded more lean.
  
 6N7G is closer to ECC31 and yes they share the same adapter - 6N7G / ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter.
  
 Of the 6N7G that I have, I do like the Mazda and Visseaux 6N7G. They are essentially the same tube with a different brand. Fivre 6N7G is lighter in tone but sounds great too.
  
 Comparing Mazda 6N7G and Mullard ECC31. The latter is like a mature wine. More texture and saturated.  Which you prefer depends on your taste buds.  Do you prefer pure crystal-clear fruit flavor riesling Mazda 6N7G or the more intoxicated wood aged ECC31. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've to say the ECC31 sounds best of the lot even though I do like those European 6N7G a lot.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> This add is the reason I asked - was assuming the tubes pictured were the EL34 - but I could well be wrong...
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/806153/fs-tubes-mullard-el34-fdd20-prices-updated


 

 Those are not EL34. They are EL3N. Jerick must have type wrongly there. He once had an Elise running EL3N with Chatham 6AS7G but has since sold off his tube amp.
  
 EL34 are not the same as EL3N. They are bigger more powerful monsters. I've heard the Blue Hawaii electrostatic tube amp driving Stax SR-009 and it use those EL34s.
  
 Here's a picture from the meet I attended.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I'll start by saying that a 6N7G does not sound like a 6N7, even though they are of the same family. 6N7 sounded more lean.
> 
> 6N7G is closer to ECC31 and yes they share the same adapter - 6N7G / ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Brilliant explanation- thanks again.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Those are not EL34. They are EL3N. Jerick must have type wrongly there.




I think he already sold the EL3Ns but is still selling a quad of Mullard EL34 re-issues.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I think he already sold the EL3Ns but is still selling a quad of Mullard EL34 re-issues.


 

 Ah yes you're correct. I had a look at the 1st picture again. There are 4 Mullard boxes, presumably the EL34s and 2 Philips EL3Ns boxes.
  
 In any case @Spork67 , you cannot use those EL34s in Elise.
  
 You can buy EL3N NOS for 20 euros each. From here - http://www.acoustic-dimension.com. Just email them the quantity and they will send you an invoice which you can pay by Paypal.


----------



## Spork67

Cheers guys, and thanks for that link @UntilThen


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Cheers guys, and thanks for that link @UntilThen


 

 If you do buy the EL3Ns, you also need to buy the adapters from here.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
  
 93 sold. Who's been eating the marshmallows.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> If you do buy the EL3Ns, you also need to buy the adapters from here.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
> 
> 93 sold. Who's been eating the marshmallows.


 
 Double Happiness Audio - cheap @ 1/2 the price!


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> My Elise left Poland today.


 
  
 Whoopee! S67...look forward to your impressions in the near future...CHEERS!...


----------



## pctazhp

Update on power tubes. Back in December before I got my Elise I ordered several sets of tubes. One of them was a pair of GE 6AS7Gs. By the time I got my Elise in January I already had power tubes that seemed more promising. Candidly, I figured that the GEs couldn't be very good because they were cheap and were not bottle shaped. So until yesterday they remained boxed. For the last 24 hours I have been running them coupled with EL3N drivers and I am very pleased. They are clean bottom to top, wonderful midrange, tight bass, great imaging and very musical. Certainly not the last word in 3D effect but that doesn't bother me. This seems to be a very good combo for my HD800S.
  
 I've also done something that is probably pretty stupid. I just ordered a pair of GEC 6080WA tubes from an Ebay seller for $165. The seller offers no returns and provided no measurements but he does have 100% positive feedback. He says they have about 45 hours use and describes them as providing 95% of the performance of GEC 6AS7Gs. As I will probably never own a pair of the 6AS7Gs I'll never know, but hope they will be "special". I'm supposed to get them on Tuesday. I'll report back. This may be as close as I ever get to the GEC 6AS7Gs.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Update on power tubes. Back in December before I got my Elise I ordered several sets of tubes. One of them was a pair of GE 6AS7Gs. By the time I got my Elise in January I already had power tubes that seemed more promising. Candidly, I figured that the GEs couldn't be very good because they were cheap and were not bottle shaped. So until yesterday they remained boxed. For the last 24 hours I have been running them coupled with EL3N drivers and I am very pleased. They are clean bottom to top, wonderful midrange, tight bass, great imaging and very musical. Certainly not the last word in 3D effect but that doesn't bother me. This seems to be a very good combo for my HD800S.
> 
> I've also done something that is probably pretty stupid. I just ordered a pair of GEC 6080W tubes from an Ebay seller for $165. The seller offers no returns and provided no measurements but he does have 100% positive feedback. He says they have about 45 hours use and describes them as providing 95% of the performance of GEC 6AS7Gs. As I will probably never own a pair of the 6AS7Gs I'll never know, but hope they will be "special". I'm supposed to get them on Tuesday. I'll report back. This may be as close as I ever get to the GEC 6AS7Gs.


 
  
 No, pct, not stupid. Sometimes we have to rely on the "100% positive feedback" in our decisions...and then keep our fingers crossed, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But of course at least buyers now have wonderful protection on ebay if anything is amiss, however...
  
 The prices for those GEC 6080s have risen sharply in recent times, alas...on the back of the hyper-expensive coke bottles! But although they don't really match the "Holy Grails", they do indeed apparently at least come close. So it will be _really_ interesting to see how they fare (for you!) compared to your 7236s and 5998s..._*can't wait!!*_





...(I've a hunch they will indeed be extremely good partners for your EL3Ns..._my_ fingers crossed!!...). GOOD LUCK!


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Update on power tubes. Back in December before I got my Elise I ordered several sets of tubes. One of them was a pair of GE 6AS7Gs. By the time I got my Elise in January I already had power tubes that seemed more promising. Candidly, I figured that the GEs couldn't be very good because they were cheap and were not bottle shaped. So until yesterday they remained boxed. For the last 24 hours I have been running them coupled with EL3N drivers and I am very pleased. They are clean bottom to top, wonderful midrange, tight bass, great imaging and very musical. Certainly not the last word in 3D effect but that doesn't bother me. This seems to be a very good combo for my HD800S.
> 
> I've also done something that is probably pretty stupid. I just ordered a pair of GEC 6080WA tubes from an Ebay seller for $165. The seller offers no returns and provided no measurements but he does have 100% positive feedback. He says they have about 45 hours use and describes them as providing 95% of the performance of GEC 6AS7Gs. As I will probably never own a pair of the 6AS7Gs I'll never know, but hope they will be "special". I'm supposed to get them on Tuesday. I'll report back. This may be as close as I ever get to the GEC 6AS7Gs.


 
 Now look what you've done- got me spending again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have just one of those GE 6AS7G's and had forgotten all about it. Now, after reading your post, I've just gone and bought another one to pair up in Elise.
  
 I think the GEC 6080WA will be very good if it's similar or better than the 6080's I've heard. I love the big open sound stage of the 6080 tubes, yet with full control and detailed imaging preserved.


----------



## Spork67

Fancy tubes may have to wait a little longer - I thought I had some lowball snipes set up on ebay - but apparently I was bidding in USD, not AU$...
 No so lowball after all.
 I now have a pair of HE-400i on their way to me.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Fancy tubes may have to wait a little longer - I thought I had some lowball snipes set up on ebay - but apparently I was bidding in USD, not AU$...
> No so lowball after all.
> I now have a pair of HE-400i on their way to me.


 
 I think you will like them.
 I have HE 400 and Elise drives them with panache.


----------



## Spork67

I've been wanting to try planars for a while.
  
 I may be in for some auditory overload over the next week or so - with a new set of HPs coming, a new amp (Elise) inbound and my Stax amp due to come back from the tech. (I haven't actually heard any Stax gear before, but have HPs and amp, soon [hopefully] a working amp).
  
 If only I really did have 2 heads (@UntilThen may be the only person reading this who "gets" that bit).


----------



## UntilThen

All this talk about HiFi Man headphones makes me want to listen with HE-560 again. So here goes - I have on HE-560 with C3G and 5998 on Elise. Exquisite. Lovely vocals. Such smooth midrange and treble. Bass is more impactful than T1. I really love this headphone except for the tight clamp. When the diva sings, I'm about to melt.
  
 Here's a picture of the HE-560 and HE-400i. Not my picture. Don't they look alike? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  

  
 Here's mine.


----------



## Spork67

Can certainly see the family resemblance between the two.
 Originally I wanted the 560 because I love the look of wood, but I saw a couple of comparisons that suggested the 400i was more suited to my musical tastes, and when i found out that the wood was only a decorative veneer (albeit a very nice looking one!) on the 560s it was an easy decision.
 I have a bit of a pin-head - so hopefully the clamping force won't be topo much for me.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Now look what you've done- got me spending again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well I hope you won't hate me when you get your second GE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll be anxious to hear what you think. I have really been loving the EL3N/GE6AS7G combo. Quite remarkable actually.


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> No, pct, not stupid. Sometimes we have to rely on the "100% positive feedback" in our decisions...and then keep our fingers crossed, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks H1 for the crossed fingers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll be reporting as soon as I get them and have a listen.


----------



## pctazhp

No one seemed at all interested in my Audioquest Jitterbug, but I'll report anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 With my Bimby it really sucks. Definitely a step backwards in sound quality.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Well I hope you won't hate me when you get your second GE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, it's on its way. Very excited to try it with the EL3N and C3g.


----------



## pctazhp

Happy weekend everyone:


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Happy weekend everyone:




  
 Lovely- my all time favourite musical. I still go all gooey at the final scene however many times I watch the film.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Well I hope you won't hate me when you get your second GE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I gave a pair of GE 6AS7G to @connieflyer with the original boxes. 
  
 I think you'll like the GEC 6080WA with your HD800S.


----------



## mordy

Found this offer valid until 8/22/16 for US customers. Adorama is a reputable business. It appears to me that you have to add sales tax to the purchase.
  
  
Sennheiser HD 650 Over-Ear 3.5mm Professional Stereo Headphones - Silver » only $284.00







Super Hot

Click here to get Sennheiser HD 650 Wired Headphones from Adorama.com for $499.95
Apply $200.95 off promo code "*1LENSSAVIN*" on it (Limited Time)
There is a $15 Exclusive Mail-In Rebate on it until 08/22/2016
This item receives Free Shipping
Final Price: $499.95 - $200.95 - $15 = $284.00 + Free Shipping


----------



## UntilThen

Looks like superb value. Buy the HD650 and mod it. 
  
 I can't decide which I like better. C3G with 7236 or C3G with 5998. Both combinations sounds amazing on my modded HD650. Looks like we have some competition for the 7236 tubes. Over at the La Figaro 339 thread, they love the Tung Sol 7236 too. They like it a lot. So do I.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Looks like superb value. Buy the HD650 and mod it.
> 
> I can't decide which I like better. C3G with 7236 or C3G with 5998. Both combinations sounds amazing on my modded HD650. Looks like we have some competition for the 7236 tubes. Over at the La Figaro 339 thread, they love the Tung Sol 7236 too. They like it a lot. So do I.


 
  
 I'm sorry I can't love those 7236 tubes. Maybe I have a bad pair- I find the sound stage disappointing compared to the 6080 and 5998 tubes?
  
 I also feel the music is 'processed', like a mediocre SS amp would sound.  I hear solid, transparent, controlled bass but the overall sound is rather uninvolving and undynamic.
  
 I guess it's related to personal taste and set-ups 'cos I know lots of people like these tubes and I wasn't expecting or hoping to be disappointed with them.


----------



## UntilThen

You must have a bad pair. If you like 5998 and 6080, the 7236 can't be that unimpressive for you.

7236 are loved over at the Woo and 339 threads.


----------



## UntilThen

But then we get very different opinions on 5998 on Elise thread too. Some just weren't impressed with it.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> You must have a bad pair. If you like 5998 and 6080, the 7236 can't be that unimpressive for you.
> 
> 7236 are loved over at the Woo and 339 threads.


 
  
 I think so-I'll buy another pair-one is quite microphonic too so may well be a problem
  
 Incidently, I've been meaning to ask you for a while about that nice white blob on your vol knob. it makes it very easy to see your vol setting. Did you paint that on or did the early Elises come with such a knob? Mine, as you may have noticed from the pictures, just has a vague whitish line on the edge.


----------



## UntilThen

The same can be said of 6as7g too. There will be some who aren't impressed while others think that the Christmas tree setup is best.

Whatever makes you happy.


----------



## UntilThen

I use a white ink correction pen and put a dot to it and voila it's beautiful


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I use a white ink correction pen and put a dot to it and voila it's beautiful


 
 I'm out to buy a correction pen this morning-thanks!


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> The same can be said of 6as7g too. There will be some who aren't impressed while others think that the Christmas tree setup is best.
> 
> Whatever makes you happy.


 
 Usually I'm not much out of sync with general consensus about things but those 7236's did surprise me so I'll get another pair.
  
 I like the blue band on your C3g's- are they Lorenz types?  If so, have you had an opportunity to compare them with Siemens? 
  
 They are my favourite drivers for most music I listen to.
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Usually I'm not much out of sync with general consensus about things but those 7236's did surprise me so I'll get another pair.
> 
> I like the blue band on your C3g's- are they Lorenz types?  If so, have you had an opportunity to compare them with Siemens?
> 
> ...


 

 Those are Valvo C3G/s which I've been told are Siemens (looks at @Oskari). I do have the Lorenz C3G without the S. 
  
 S for sweeter 
  
 The C3G/s sounds a touch more sparkling on the high notes. That or my mind is adjusting to the more beautiful blue band. I got it from @Audict123. It was a swap of my Chatham 6AS7G for his Valvo C3G/s. I think we're both happy with the outcome.
  
 Here's my Lorenz C3G with Mullard 6080 with the metal jacket strip off. I won't do that to the Valvo C3G/s.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Those are Valvo C3G/s which I've been told are Siemens (looks at @Oskari). I do have the Lorenz C3G without the S.
> 
> S for sweeter
> 
> ...


 
 They look good without their jackets-I didn't realise they could come off-I won't do it though.
  
 Thanks for that info-sounds like the Siemens I've got will suffice for me, I like top end sparkle - I'll just find another pair of 7236.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> They look good without their jackets-I didn't realise they could come off-I won't do it though.
> 
> Thanks for that info-sounds like the Siemens I've got will suffice for me, I like top end sparkle - *I'll just find another pair of 7236.*
> 
> Cheers.


 
 Howie check out this place. 
  
 https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236
  
 Cetron bought over Tung Sol and I've reasons to believe Cetron 7236 are similar to Tung Sol 7236. Price looks reasonable for very new looking 7236. I'm tempted to get another pair.
  
 However @mordy found some used ones for $6 each.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Howie check out this place.
> 
> https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cheers and thanks for that link.
  
 Goodness knows how Mordy found those!


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Those are Valvo C3G/s which I've been told are Siemens (looks at @Oskari).







oskari said:


> It is generally understood that all the shiny, later ones were made by Siemens.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


>


 
  
 That's good to know. Mercifully C3g's are a lot less complicated than most tube types.
  
@UntilThen those are a good deal compared to others on eBay. £136 (approx) including tax and shipping for a pair.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> That's good to know. Mercifully C3g's are a lot less complicated than most tube types.
> 
> @UntilThen those are a good deal compared to others on eBay. £136 (approx) including tax and shipping for a pair.


 

 I just spend money again by ordering a pair of Cetron 7236 at US$121. Can't resist. These are NOS in original boxes. Think I saw the JAN wording too which is 'Joint Army Navy'. Basically for the military.
  
 While you're there, you might as well buy that pair of Mullard ECC32 for US$689. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Ps.. I bought the #2 pair. I left the #1 pair for you.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I just spend money again by ordering a pair of Cetron 7236 at US$121. Can't resist. These are NOS in original boxes. Think I saw the JAN wording too which is 'Joint Army Navy'. Basically for the military.
> 
> While you're there, you might as well buy that pair of Mullard ECC32 for US$689.
> 
> ...


 
 Just as well they have several pairs for sale around that price,  though I'll give those Mullards a miss


----------



## UntilThen

Love this version of Sara by a very young Stevie Nicks. Simply gorgeous. Not the best sound off Youtube but nevertheless sounding great on C3G and 7236.


----------



## Spork67

6080? http://www.partsconnexion.com/6080.html


----------



## whirlwind

spork67 said:


> 6080? http://www.partsconnexion.com/6080.html


 
 I believe those are Sylvania tubes....great price...I would call them a mediocre tube.
  
 I liked the Thomson 6080 better...they are made in France...cheap....a tad better than the Sylvania IMHO
  
 As always, YMMV....different strokes for different folks


----------



## HOWIE13

whirlwind said:


> I believe those are Sylvania tubes....great price...I would call them a mediocre tube.
> 
> I liked the Thomson 6080 better...they are made in France...cheap....a tad better than the Sylvania IMHO
> 
> As always, YMMV....different strokes for different folks


 
 Too true- I prefer that Philips to the Thomson- just personal preference.


----------



## HOWIE13

Here's a link with a bit of info about those 6080WC tubes 
  
  
 http://watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=3587


----------



## UntilThen

Partsconnexion is where I bought my GE 6AS7GA for $10 each. Nothing really special but at $10 each, it won't give your bank manager a stroke.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> Partsconnexion is where I bought my GE 6AS7GA for $10 each. Nothing really special but at $10 each, it won't give your bank manager a stroke.


 
 So true, they offer many NOS tubes that are very affordable


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> So true, they offer many NOS tubes that are very affordable


 

 Just realized that it's Parts Express I bought my GE 6AS7GA from. However both Parts stores seems to sell some NOS tubes quite cheaply. 
  
 I did made an enquiry once on the Thompson CSF 6080 from Partsconnexion once but didn't go ahead with the purchase because the shipping cost more than the tubes !!! 
  
 https://www.parts-express.com/cat/vacuum-tubes/1600?N=21138+4294967118&Ne=10166&No=16&Nrpp=16&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&PortalID=1


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > So true, they offer many NOS tubes that are very affordable
> ...


 
  I have also bought from there also.
  
 I like to use cheap power tubes to burn in drivers and vice versa


----------



## UntilThen

I normally run 6xEL3Ns but 4 works with HD650 and T1 with no abnormalities. Only with the HE-560 planar magnetics do I need the 6 pack. Sounds great. Volume is only at a quarter. At 20 euros each the EL3Ns and $20 each for the adapters. I think they look beautiful. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 These will keep you cool all throughout Summer. Seriously Lukasz, Don't you think this looks lovely?


----------



## connieflyer

When I first got the EL3N's the 6 pack was in vogue, and after trying many combo's I find this is still very satisfiing and in this hot weather, it runs very cool. With the Senn 800 this combo enhances the sound stage and gives me a very good immersion in the music.  I would try just using four, but would need to buy two more single adapters,and since this works so well, I figured I would just keep using this way.  I have a two spare tubes, thought in case they got scareeces or I burned one out would have back up.  But these have such a long life probably won't need them.


----------



## UntilThen

6 pack is still in vogue as far as I'm concerned. If you like it, that's all that matters. Your ears are the best guide. At least we know we have similar preference. Not everyone is the same though. It's ok to disagree and find one's own preference.


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 It have several pairs of the 7236, and they don't all sound the same, so it could be that there are variations. None of mine are microphonic.
  
 Hi CF,
  
 Did you try just one EL3N in the dual adapters? It may work, and if so, you don't need to buy extra single adapters.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I normally run 6xEL3Ns but 4 works with HD650 and T1 with no abnormalities. Only with the HE-560 planar magnetics do I need the 6 pack. Sounds great. Volume is only at a quarter. At 20 euros each the EL3Ns and $20 each for the adapters. I think they look beautiful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 They do sound very nice but 4 was under-powered for my K702 and HE400 so I've ordered the 6 pack adapters.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> It have several pairs of the 7236, and they don't all sound the same, so it could be that there are variations. None of mine are microphonic.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the info Mordy. I think I was unlucky-will repurchase soon.


----------



## connieflyer

Mordy, may try using only one tube in the dual adapters.  Got all the tubes glowing, kind of hate to pull two out and then have to get them back in again. Awhile back, when I first put the 6 pack back in, one tube was not seated well and the sound in one channel was quite a bit lower and the sound was distorted some., so only had a 5 pack at that time.  Re-seated the offending tube and all was right with the world again.


----------



## mordy

Hi CF,
  
 In the beginning I dreaded inserting/removing the EL3N tubes. However, the first few times they required a hard push and then it gets easier. Just push straight in with your palm, and pull straight out.
  
 Of course, it helped me to realize that the paddle feet were not spaced evenly lol....


----------



## DecentLevi

So @JazzVinyl, I take it you've returned the Modi Multibit because you like another of your DAC's better right?
  
 Also I may be interested to try a full Tung Sol setup. Who was that that had a full TS setup around here recently - @mordy maybe it was you who had orange TS 6SN7 drivers and, and what TS powers did you use? Moreover, how would you describe their sound signature? I'm looking for snappy / tight and vivid, but not too lush / tubey. And would you say TS 6BL7 do anything better than GE 6BL7? Thanks


----------



## DecentLevi

Also a few other headphones I forgot to mention that I tried last month at the SF Head-Fi meet:
  
*Hifiman Edition S*
  

 Color me un-impressed. Totally passive, bland sound signature lacking in detail. Think Oppo PM 2 or 3 but flatter with less bass, or Fischer Audio FA-003 but with smaller soundstage. Tried it only for a minute on another amp I don't recall, but tested with several genres enough to know it wasn't for me. Removing the back cover made a barely noticeable difference.
  
  
*Audeze LCD 2 Fazor *with Elise
  

  
 I was fortunate enough to snag a pair of these from an attendee to try on my Elise. His was the original LCD 2, modded to the _Fazor _version. The sound I got was Snappy, dynamic, semi intamate / vivid, amazing soundstage and instrument separation.
  
 This is an amazing pairing with the Elise and I recon UT would love this to bits - yet being an Audeze this still has that slightly darker than neutral signature so they weren't quite for me. However I would still choose this over the HD-650 (even my modded ones), if I were given the choice.


----------



## DecentLevi

Also I thought the pairing with Hifiman Edition X was both far too dark and far too lacking detail with the Elise.
  
 For the Focal Utopia, I absolutely adored it - with Elise and especially the Woo Audio and Liquid Tungsten amps I tried it with. Jaw dropping clarity / speed, and immensely pleasing enough to justify the $4,000 price. Although not exactly on par with Stax SR-009 (but darn close), I prefer the Focal Utopia for it's ability to work with normal amps. I found it to be _at least_ 50% better than the HD-800 and multiple times better than HD-650; mostly in terms of hyper-realism (that electrostatic-like speed), detail and imaging. These produce a sound unlike any dynamic headphone, because they're made out of a special new beryllium M-shaped speaker drivers; also with carbon fiber headband and lambskin memory foam earpads.


----------



## pctazhp

Here's music for a Sunday that touches the soul of even this heathen!!! Maybe there is redemption in music


----------



## UntilThen

All Tung Sol setup in the Darkvoice 336se (Tung Sol 6SN7gt mouse ears and Tung Sol 5998) and EL3Ns in Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  The DV sounds very good still. I wish it was the double barrel 339. There's that oomph in the bottom end. There's still that little Aune T1. I like tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Clean up the desk today and move the turntable to the lounge with the HiFi.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> *Audeze LCD 2 Fazor *with Elise
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I might but not because I like a dark signature. Otherwise I wouldn't be using a Beyer T1 which is on the opposite end of the scale.
  
 I reckon I can love the LCD2 because I do appreciate all flavors.


----------



## UntilThen

Moar photos guys. It's almost Spring. Clean up your Elise and post some of your setup.
  
 Here's a new photo after I really clean up the desk. Dust on a black desk will show up like stars in the night sky.


----------



## UntilThen

Read Tale of 2 Cities? Well this is the Tale of 2 Amps but the good news is that they both live happily ever after.
  
 I've been singing the praises of C3G, ECC31, 6N7G, FDD20 and EL3N but now I'll present both amps shod with politically correct tubes. I think they look beautiful.
  
 Darkvoice 336se with Tung Sol 6SN7gt mouse ears and Tung Sol 5998.
  
 Elise with Sylvania 6SN7gtb chrome top and Tung Sol 5998.
  
 DV sounds pretty amazing with these tubes. Sound is more focussed and bass hits you in the chest. Very enjoyable for this $260 tube amp. The tubes cost half as much. Elise is more refined. Has a wider soundstage and clearly better instruments separation. High frequencies are startling clear and yet smooth. Bass is not as pronounced but overall sounds more even through the frequency spectrum without emphasizing on the bass.
  
 Which got me thinking. How will the La Figaro 339 fare against Elise. I think it will be a very good contrast. Perhaps one day, this 336 will morph into a 339.


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> Read Tale of 2 Cities? Well this is the Tale of 2 Amps but the good news is that they both live happily ever after.
> 
> I've been singing the praises of C3G, ECC31, 6N7G, FDD20 and EL3N but now I'll present both amps shod with politically correct tubes. I think they look beautiful.
> 
> ...




Thanks. I have been thinking of 339 vs Elise comparison as well. Hope there is somebody who owns both and can provide some feedback.


----------



## HOWIE13

lukeap69 said:


> Thanks. I have been thinking of 339 vs Elise comparison as well. Hope there is somebody who owns both and can provide some feedback.


 
  
 Just looking at the pictures of DV339, I like the idea of being able to adjust each channel volume separately, but is there no 'line out' for pre-amp use, and is the headphone output socket a standard one?
  
 Also those driver tubes seem a bit restrictive for rolling compared to what I've been accustomed to with Elise and with G1217 amps. 
  
 Mind you, if the stock tubes are excellent it won't matter.


----------



## whirlwind

The 7236 are one of the few sets of power tubes that I do not have.
  
 Currently going to be spending my money on a new set of cans, after that I will save up some cash and try a set of Tung Sol 7236.


----------



## lukeap69

whirlwind said:


> The 7236 are one of the few sets of power tubes that I do not have.
> 
> Currently going to be spending my money on a new set of cans, after that I will save up some cash and try a set of Tung Sol 7236.




I have a pair on the way to me Joe. I got them for 20 a piece. I hope they have not been lost in transit. ☺


----------



## whirlwind

lukeap69 said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > The 7236 are one of the few sets of power tubes that I do not have.
> ...


 
 Hope you receive them soon , Arnold.
  
 These the ones you bought quite some time ago.


----------



## connieflyer

decentlevi said:


> Also I thought the pairing with Hifiman Edition X was both far too dark and far too lacking detail with the Elise.
> 
> For the Focal Utopia, I absolutely adored it - with Elise and especially the Woo Audio and Liquid Tungsten amps I tried it with. Jaw dropping clarity / speed, and immensely pleasing enough to justify the $4,000 price. Although not exactly on par with Stax SR-009 (but darn close), I prefer the Focal Utopia for it's ability to work with normal amps. I found it to be _at least_ 50% better than the HD-800 and multiple times better than HD-650; mostly in terms of hyper-realism (that electrostatic-like speed), detail and imaging. These produce a sound unlike any dynamic headphone, because they're made out of a special new beryllium M-shaped speaker drivers; also with carbon fiber headband and lambskin memory foam earpads.


 

 Talk about diminishing returns, almost five times the price of the hd800 and only 50% better.  Not much reason to consider something like these. Auditioned Focal's  other new phone and did not think it any better than the HD800.    If you can afford cans like these, it would be time to upgrade the whole system to match price, performance level.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Talk about diminishing returns, almost five times the price of the hd800 and only 50% better.  Not much reason to consider something like these. Auditioned Focal's  other new phone and did not think it any better than the HD800.    If you can afford cans like these, it would be time to upgrade the whole system to match price, performance level.


 
 I was so bummed. I woke up this morning and my HD800S was 300% less good than it was last night before I went to sleep. Then I put on a pot of coffee and that improved things by 87% which brought me to a 213% deficit. Next I spent two hours trying to find every post I could find praising the S and that brought about a 71% improvement.
  
 So at that point I was only down by 142%. Then I realized I had the headphone on backwards - and whaaalaaa!!! Back to last night's level


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> So @JazzVinyl, I take it you've returned the Modi Multibit because you like another of your DAC's better right?




I returned it because in blind tests, I could not distinguish any difference in the way it sounded from 2 older DAC's.

Conclusion:
DAC advantages are only advantages, to sighted listeners.

:rolleyes:


----------



## lukeap69

whirlwind said:


> Hope you receive them soon , Arnold.
> 
> These the ones you bought quite some time ago.




These are just recent purchase Joe. My first pair are Sylvania 7236. I have been listening with them for a week now.


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> I returned it because in blind tests, I could not distinguish any difference in the way it sounded from 2 older DAC's.
> 
> Conclusion:
> DAC advantages are only advantages, to sighted listeners.


 
 Pretty definitive conclusion regarding the value of sighted comparisons - a debate that has literally consumed millions of words over the years.. Seems that would also apply to tube rolling and amp comparisons as well. Maybe we should just shut down this thread and all go back to listening to sound cards.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Pretty definitive conclusion regarding the value of sighted comparisons - a debate that has literally consumed millions of words over the years.. Seems that would also apply to tube rolling and amp comparisons as well. Maybe we should just shut down this thread and all go back to listening to sound cards.


 
  
 I tried to get the wife to aid me in blind testing by switching tubes but she got bored after 5 minutes and walked off. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## JazzVinyl

howie13 said:


> I tried to get the wife to aid me in blind testing by switching tubes but she got bored after 5 minutes and walked off.  .




Understand...

Fortunately, my gal, and actually enjoyed it, and was surprised at the outcome as it seem the sight of a new piece of gear does make one tend to think it would sound "better/different"...even she thought (by sight) that maybe it would. She definitely agreed that when listening blind, it did not sound any better/different.

I would encourage all to do blind tests before proclaiming knowing anything about what they hear.


Cheers


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> I returned it because in blind tests, I could not distinguish any difference in the way it sounded from 2 older DAC's.
> 
> *Conclusion:
> DAC advantages are only advantages, to sighted listeners.*


 
  
 Hey JV...to come to such a conclusion based upon an *extremely* small sample?...I presume you were acting tongue-in-cheek LOL?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Pretty definitive conclusion regarding the value of sighted comparisons - a debate that has literally consumed millions of words over the years.. Seems that would also apply to tube rolling and amp comparisons as well. Maybe we should just shut down this thread and all go back to listening to sound cards.




Now now, calm down,. I know this conclusion does not match your belief.

But...couple of points...

1> You have not compared your MB to *any other* DAC (is what you told me).
2> You have not blind tested anything regarding DAC's.

So....each to his own conclusion.

Enjoy the "miracle" of MB :rolleyes:


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hey JV...to come to such a conclusion based upon an *extremely* small sample?...I presume you were acting tongue-in-cheek LOL?!! :wink_face:  ...




I would challenge you too @hypnos1, to do the blind tests before you making your own vast proclamations, regarding DAC's.

Might be surprised....

:rolleyes:


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> I would challenge you too @hypnos1, to do the blind tests before you making your own vast proclamations, regarding DAC's.
> 
> Might be surprised....


 
  
 Will have to enlist the help of my better half...only her hands shake like crazy at the best of times alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 But you would certainly appear to be negating the findings of literally *thousands* of peoples' trials of different equipment...brave fellow indeed...


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> Now now, calm down,. I know this conclusion does not match *your belief.*
> 
> But...couple of points...
> 
> ...


 
 My "belief" is the only scientifically valid comparison between any two audio components or tubes (for that matter) is through *properly conducted* double blind testing. I personally have never blind tested anything - audio or otherwise. But this is not the place to talk about that. I'd be happy to see you make an appearance over at the Sound Science forums.
  
 The only DAC I compared my Bimby to was the DAC portion of my Aune T1 Mk 2.
  
 I don't enjoy the "miracle" of anything. I enjoy listening to the system I have assembled. My desk is home to an entertainment system - not a science lab.


----------



## connieflyer

At one time before my wife passed, I asked her about doing blind testing, and she agreed wholeheartedly, she even offered to put to HER fingers in my eyes, just to make sure it was done right


----------



## HOWIE13

'Where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise'.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> At one time before my wife passed, I asked her about doing blind testing, and she agreed wholeheartedly, she even offered to put to HER fingers in my eyes, just to make sure it was done right


 
  
 Y'know, cf, I've a horrible feeling that's _exactly_ the response I'd get from my own 'angel' LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...Bless her!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> The 7236 are one of the few sets of power tubes that I do not have.
> 
> Currently going to be spending my money on a new set of cans, after that I will save up some cash and try a set of Tung Sol 7236.


 

 I'm surprised because I thought you have every tubes. Would be interesting to hear what you think of the 7236. Tube World Express has just shipped my NOS pair of 7236 via USPS.com First-Class Package International Service®. I like this service. You get an email to inform you of the delivery progress as it sails through the oceans and eluded the pirates.


----------



## UntilThen

This is my assistant for blind testing but he only does it for food taste test.


----------



## UntilThen

So in the absence of any willing assistant for blind testing, I'll have to do this test with my eyes wide open. Not going to burn my fingers with these hot tubes.
  
 I realize how much I love these Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Tung Sol 7236 in Elise. It's an exquisite and exotic sound, one that will reward you with your eyes open because I think they look beautiful too.


----------



## connieflyer

Now that is the best looking tester yet. Mine feels he is above all that, shephards are aloof,as anything that does not include playing with his ball is a waste of his time


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Now that is the best looking tester yet. Mine feels he is above all that, shephards are aloof,as anything that does not include playing with his ball is a waste of his time


 
 As long as your shepherd does not eat your mailman when he delivers your audio gear. I think they are a smart breed. They are good with social media. Ever see your shepherd using your laptop?


----------



## mordy

Once my wife asked me why I have so many of those little glass things (well over 500 by now). So I told her that I am looking for audio perfection.....
  
 IMHO the best listening test is time.
  
 Listening to certain tubes for an extended period of time crystallizes out how you feel about them. There is always the first impression, and some times that WOW! moment in the beginning. But the real test is over time - do they consistently deliver a beautiful musical experience, or is there something that grates on your nerves or bothers you in the long run?
  
 And then, finally,  you have found the best of the best for your system/taste/budget/glow appeal/aesthetics that continuously re-creates that WOW feeling.....
  
 You know what I mean - old, familiar recordings sound new and fresh and you discover details in the music that you did not hear or did not notice before.
  
 Or, you are not listening to your equipment any more, just the music.....


----------



## connieflyer

Yes to both posts


----------



## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> These are just recent purchase Joe. My first pair are Sylvania 7236. I have been listening with them for a week now.


 

 So how are the Sylvania 7236? I don't have them and don't plan on getting every tube under the sun. So you have to tell me if the Sylvanias sound the same as the Tung Sol / Cetron 7236 when you get it.


----------



## whirlwind

lukeap69 said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Hope you receive them soon , Arnold.
> ...


 
 OK....I was thinking you were still waiting on the Sylvania tubes.....you have Tung Sol tubes coming ?
  


untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > The 7236 are one of the few sets of power tubes that I do not have.
> ...


 
 No, I never tried any 7236 tubes....but I will in the future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.....I will be getting new cans soon, so the 7236 will be my next purchase after the headphones.


----------



## Spork67

What HPs are you adding to the collection @whirlwind ?


----------



## connieflyer

Had to put aside the 6 pack EL3N's one of the dual adapters has gotten noisy and hums really bad, not a tube, swapped another tube in all spots, it is the adapter.  Thought since had the EL3N's in as drivers, tried them with the TS 5998's and to my pleasant surprise this is a very good combo.  The sound stage is not as wide or large as the 5 pack but very satisfying. Seems @UntilThen asked if I had tried these, glad I remembered. The base line seems a little better, fuller with the 5998's than the 6 pack. Lots of impact in bass, mid's very present and treble is still extended and clear.  Not as present as the C3G's but very nice, just a little warmer, which I like. Thanks Matt.


----------



## UntilThen

My pleasure Don.


----------



## connieflyer

That's part of the problem with this endevor you find something sounds great and you stick with it until it breaks, and then you try what others have suggested and wonder why you waited so long. I should be shutting this down by now, but it sounds so good.I am in your debt again Matt.


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> So how are the Sylvania 7236? I don't have them and don't plan on getting every tube under the sun. So you have to tell me if the Sylvanias sound the same as the Tung Sol / Cetron 7236 when you get it.




I will compare them when I received the TS.


----------



## lukeap69

whirlwind said:


> OK....I was thinking you were still waiting on the Sylvania tubes.....you have Tung Sol tubes coming ?




Yes I do. Got a good deal on them. There was a problem with the shipping (USPS is sometimes strange). The seller will resend them to me.


----------



## UntilThen

@lukeap69 do you have 5998A? I need someone to listen to it and compare with 7236. I heard they are similar but I want confirmation. At the same time, I don't think 5998A are similar to GE 6AS7GA. The gain is entirely different so they can't be the same.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Had to put aside the 6 pack EL3N's one of the dual adapters has gotten noisy and hums really bad, not a tube, swapped another tube in all spots, it is the adapter.  Thought since had the EL3N's in as drivers, tried them with the TS 5998's and to my pleasant surprise this is a very good combo.  The sound stage is not as wide or large as the 5 pack but very satisfying. Seems @UntilThen asked if I had tried these, glad I remembered. The base line seems a little better, fuller with the 5998's than the 6 pack. Lots of impact in bass, mid's very present and treble is still extended and clear.  Not as present as the C3G's but very nice, just a little warmer, which I like. Thanks Matt.


 

 There are some days I craved a brighter and more sparkling top end. These Sylvania 6SN7wgt with 7236 gives me that and more. Really enjoying it.
  
 At the same time, I can enjoy and do love EL3N with 5998. So many flavors. We're having a lot of fun tube rolling.


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> @lukeap69
> do you have 5998A? I need someone to listen to it and compare with 7236. I heard they are similar but I want confirmation. At the same time, I don't think 5998A are similar to GE 6AS7GA. The gain is entirely different so they can't be the same.




No I do not have, sorry.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> There are some days I craved a brighter and more sparkling top end. These Sylvania 6SN7wgt with 7236 gives me that and more. Really enjoying it.
> 
> At the same time, I can enjoy and do love EL3N with 5998. So many flavors. *We're having a lot of fun tube rolling.*


 
 No. Not all of us are having fun. It gives me a headache and makes me want to take up knitting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But you are right. Sylvania 6SN7wgt with 7236 does have very nice sparkling high end. Kind of like champagne


----------



## UntilThen

Trust me. Tube rolling is more exciting than abseiling.

I tried the Sylvania 6SN7wgt and 7236 in my Darkvoice 336se and it sings like a diva.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> *There are some days I craved a brighter and more sparkling top end. *These Sylvania 6SN7wgt with 7236 gives me that and more. Really enjoying it.
> 
> *At the same time, I can enjoy and do love EL3N with 5998.* So many flavors. We're having a lot of fun tube rolling.


 
  
 Right on, UT...our poor heads - not to mention _*mood!*_ - can vary enormously from day to day (or hour to hour even, lol!), affecting quite profoundly our music-listening experience. Which is just _another_ factor to mess up our assessments - or even enjoyment -  sometimes!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...and hence poor ol' @pctazhp's headaches!...ps. you're not the only one, pct!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but will stick with the rolling for sure, UT! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Mind you, I find my "final"(?!) setup gives me all I could wish for without having to keep 'rolling'...for which I am now _*extremely *_grateful...or does that mean my ears/head/mood are _incredibly_ stable LOL? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..._*I wish!!!*_





...HAPPY LISTENING!


----------



## whirlwind

spork67 said:


> What HPs are you adding to the collection @whirlwind ?


 
 Hi Spork67
  
 I will be getting a ZMF Omni....I just need to decide on what wood that I want
  


lukeap69 said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > OK....I was thinking you were still waiting on the Sylvania tubes.....you have Tung Sol tubes coming ?
> ...


 
 Hope you get them soon and I will look forward to your impressions.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Right on, UT...our poor heads - not to mention _*mood!*_ - can vary enormously from day to day (or hour to hour even, lol!), affecting quite profoundly our music-listening experience. Which is just _another_ factor to mess up our assessments - or even enjoyment -  sometimes!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Elise does sound good with many tubes. Hence I'm a man with many tubes. This is the reason I love tube amps. With SS amps, there's not much you can do except to power it on and off.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I will be getting a ZMF Omni....I just need to decide on what wood that I want


 
 Going for contrast? From HD800 to ZMF Omni. Why not. You're extending tube rolling to headphones.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> Elise does sound good with many tubes. Hence I'm a man with many tubes. This is the reason I love tube amps. With SS amps, there's not much you can do except to power it on and off.


 
 You can swap opamps in some, and caps in most.
 More mucking around and probably less change in sound than tubes though.
  
 Probably cheaper though...


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> You can swap opamps in some, and caps in most.
> More mucking around and probably less change in sound than tubes though.
> 
> Probably cheaper though...


 

 Too much work. Swapping tubes is easier and sound better. 
  
 Seriously I'll never use a T1 with an ss amp. Even the HE-560. With Elise or a tube amp, they just sound so good.


----------



## Oskari

spork67 said:


> You can swap opamps in some, and caps in most.
> More mucking around and probably less change in sound than tubes though.
> 
> Probably cheaper though...




As usual, the boutique stuff can get pretty expensive. (When does it not? :rolleyes


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Y'know, cf, I've a horrible feeling that's _exactly_ the response I'd get from my own 'angel' LOL!!! :eek: :wink_face: ...Bless her!!... ...




Perhaps your school of koi could help you (re: "swims with fishes")? :wink_face:


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Perhaps your school of koi could help you (re: "swims with fishes")?


 
  
 Hmmm....don't tempt me O! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...with my kind of luck, I'd slip...et voila LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I will be getting a ZMF Omni....I just need to decide on what wood that I want
> ...


 
 Yes, I am wanting three different cans with three different sound signatures.....I am hoping the Omni will tic the boxes that I am hoping it will
  
 After communicating with Zach  some, I feel confident it will....I love the semi closed/open design....hoping for some great planar bass, that does not bleed into the mids and something with a tad darker treble.....and tuned for some killer guitar!


----------



## pctazhp

*BREAKING NEWS! *My GEC 6080WAs arrived today and 2 hours out of the box (supposedly they already had about 45 hours on them) the result is stunning beyond stunning. Somewhere far out there beyond the moon and stars. @DecentLevi where are your literary skills when I need them???
  
 The music is so organic it almost seems sacrilegious to try to discuss things like lows, mid-range, highs, imaging, soundstage or even performance with different genres of music.
  
 OK OK Back to earth for a moment. Are they really that good??? No. Nothing, including live performances, is. But these are very, very good power tubes. It is difficult to imagine that they will not become my unqualified champs of power tubes. The above description (particularly the "organic" part) is not complete, unabashed hyperbole.
  
 I have only tried them so far with the EL3N drivers. If I ever return to earth for more than 10 minutes I'll try some of my other drivers.
  
 I'm not a particular fan of the Mullard 6080s. But these GECs are a completely different animal ranging the bucolic meadows in some alternative universe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 If these tubes really are 95% of the GEC 6AS7Gs, then I think anyone who has set his or her sights higher than the Elise might want to give serious consideration to springing for the 6AS7Gs and sticking with our beloved Elise. I strongly suspect you'd be dollars and music way ahead.
  
 @UntilThen. Today tube-rolling is fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit and PS. If this doesn't demonstrate (at least to me) that my humble Bimby is not pretty special, then I'll eat the shipping box and packing materials my GECs came in!!!


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> *BREAKING NEWS! *My GEC 6080WAs arrived today and 2 hours out of the box (supposedly they already had about 45 hours on them) the result is stunning beyond stunning.




*Shhh.* Calm down. Surely the tubes are mediocre at best...


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> *Shhh.* Calm down. Surely the tubes are mediocre at best...


 
 They are a great match for my mediocre ears


----------



## geetarman49

oskari said:


> *Shhh.* Calm down. Surely the tubes are mediocre at best...


 
  
  


pctazhp said:


> They are a great match for my mediocre ears


 
  
 & where does one find these medicre toobs for a good price?
  
 & on another matter, in a wks time, i'll be joining you anointed ones.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> They are a great match for my mediocre ears




My ears are _extremely_ mediocre as well.


----------



## geetarman49

yes.  let the banners fly & the bells ring out ... finally, the matter of my 'hostaged' elise is resolved --- cbsa apologized for losing track of my shipment & released it today.


----------



## pctazhp

geetarman49 said:


> & where does one find these medicre toobs for a good price?
> 
> & on another matter, in a wks time, i'll be joining you anointed ones.


 
 The GEC 6AS7Gs occasionally show up on Ebay, but they are very scarce - almost in the unobtainian class. And if they are available they seem to be in the $500 per pair and up. The GEC 6080s were the only ones I had ever seen or even heard of. I took a chance buying them with not much information provided by the Ebay seller and no return right. But fortunately they were in the more earthly range at $165 for the pair.
  
 I think there may be a NOS pair of the 6AS7Gs on the British Ebay site. At least there was a few days back and the link may be at the other Elise site. But in American dollars I think they were at least $650.


----------



## pctazhp

geetarman49 said:


> yes.  let the banners fly & the bells ring out ... finally, the matter of my 'hostaged' elise is resolved --- cbsa apologized for losing track of my shipment & released it today.


 
 OMG!!! This truly is a BANNER day


----------



## Oskari

geetarman49 said:


> yes.  let the banners fly & the bells ring out ... finally, the matter of my 'hostaged' elise is resolved --- cbsa apologized for losing track of my shipment & released it today.




That's GREAT news!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *BREAKING NEWS! *My GEC 6080WAs arrived today and 2 hours out of the box (supposedly they already had about 45 hours on them) the result is stunning beyond stunning. Somewhere far out there beyond the moon and stars. @DecentLevi where are your literary skills when I need them???
> 
> The music is so organic it almost seems sacrilegious to try to discuss things like lows, mid-range, highs, imaging, soundstage or even performance with different genres of music.
> 
> ...


 
 You almost make me spill my morning coffee. 
  
 Alright what I want to know is are they clinical or more saturated like the 6AS7G. In my physic mind, I've envisage them as sounding more analytical with a tight controlled bass.
  
 So do the GEC 6080WA lean more towards Mullard 6080 or 7236 or Chatham 6AS7G. Probably none of those.
  
 Take a deep breath though and give me 3 outstanding attributes you'll associate with these GECs otherwise I might have to visit you in Scottdale.


----------



## Oskari




----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> & where does one find these medicre toobs for a good price?
> 
> & on another matter, in a wks time, i'll be joining you anointed ones.


 
  
 I once enquired of Langrex on a NOS pair of GEC 6080WA. They told me it's GBP 170. @hpamdr has these and he loves them.
  


geetarman49 said:


> yes.  let the banners fly & the bells ring out ... finally, the matter of my 'hostaged' elise is resolved --- cbsa apologized for losing track of my shipment & released it today.


 
  
 I'm very sure they burn it in for you. Congrats. This is the 1st time I've heard of an Elise held for so long in customs.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You almost make me spill my morning coffee.
> 
> Alright what I want to know is are they clinical or more saturated like the 6AS7G. In my physic mind, I've envisage them as sounding more analytical with a tight controlled bass.
> 
> ...


 
 OK. You are leading me to sin. So you at least will owe me a visit in audio Hades ))
  
 They do have very good controlled bass. Probably the best I have heard on my HD800S. Very impacting but because the bass is so well controlled - not because it is overwhelming. Because of the bass they add back some of that emotional involvement I miss from the Beyer T1s
  
 Despite living in alternate universes, I can tell some similarity to the Mullard 6080s. But to me the 6080s have a metallic quality that I don't appreciate. The GECs are much sweeter and less congested.
  
 With the EL3Ns they don't have that wonderful sparkle we were discussing with respect to the Sylvania WGT/7236 combo, but very clean highs and good detail.
  
 Of the choices you give me, I think I would say they probably lean more toward the Chatham 6AS7Gs, but I'll probably have to get back to you on that.
  
 The three outstanding characteristics I guess would be: organic mid-range, seemingly accurate sense of the recording venue including reverberation (I think that's the right word) off the walls, and very good integration from bottom to top. I'd probably add up to this point that they are not at all fatiguing.
  
 But I really do have to restate that the overall quality I am liking is the organic nature of the music. It just sounds right to me.
  
 I also should clarify that I have no idea if they really are 95% of the GEC 6AS7Gs or even 56.4%. That's just what the seller said.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Of the choices you give me, I think I would say they probably lean more toward the Chatham 6AS7Gs, but I'll probably have to get back to you on that.


 
 That's a surprise to me. Being a 6080 I would have thought the GECs are closer to their 6080 cousins. 
  
 I'll let you listen more to it and then give us more feedback.
  
 I'm still on Sylvania 6SN7wgt and 7236. It's not just the sparkle but the bass is very engaging. I'm looking forward to the Cetrons that are on their way. I don't expect them to sound different from the Tung Sol 7236 that I have. If they did, I'd be very surprised. However being manufactured in different decades and tube conditions ( my TS 7236 are a used pair albeit near mint), they can sound a bit different. 
  
 We're looking at old tubes. The Cetrons are 1983. The Tung Sol probably the 60s or 70s.


----------



## geetarman49

pctazhp said:


> OMG!!! This truly is a BANNER day


 
  
  


oskari said:


> That's GREAT news!


 

 thnx guys ... i can't tell you how much i'm looking forward to this ... now, where in the heck did i put all those toobs?  first up will be ge 6sn7 and rca 6as7g just to ensure that all is working properly.
  
 for those who remember my earlier posts about spending time with a new vizio 4k tv --- watching olympic ceremonies with 4k and wcg is awesome.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> That's a surprise to me. Being a 6080 I would have thought the GECs are closer to their 6080 cousins.
> 
> I'll let you listen more to it and then give us more feedback.
> 
> ...


 
 I certainly need a lot more listening time to provide any more useful information. I chose the 6AS7Gs instead of the 6080s because I just don't like the Mullard 6080s and I'm truly loving the GECs. 
  
 One other thing I will add. I seem to recall that in the past when you and I discussed the HD800S I told you I felt the S had a small degree of "grain" or veil, and I think you questioned that. That's not important, but to me that has been one thing that I have felt detracts a little from the S. It's hard to describe exactly what has bothered. Maybe the word "homogenized" is a better term - but please understand I'm talking about a very slight distraction for me, but a distraction nonetheless. I can easily say that with the GECs that distraction is virtually completely gone.
  
 Anyway, back to listening )))


----------



## geetarman49

pctazhp said:


> The GEC 6AS7Gs occasionally show up on Ebay, but they are very scarce - almost in the unobtainian class. And if they are available they seem to be in the $500 per pair and up. The GEC 6080s were the only ones I had ever seen or even heard of. I took a chance buying them with not much information provided by the Ebay seller and no return right. But fortunately they were in the more earthly range at $165 for the pair.
> 
> I think there may be a NOS pair of the 6AS7Gs on the British Ebay site. At least there was a few days back and the link may be at the other Elise site. But in American dollars I think they were at least $650.


 
 the gec 6as7g is just too far out there ... i would rather put the $ towards new hp or even upgrade my tv to even larger size.
  


untilthen said:


> I once enquired of Langrex on a NOS pair of GEC 6080WA. They told me it's GBP 170. @hpamdr has these and he loves them.
> 
> 
> I'm very sure they burn it in for you. Congrats. This is the 1st time I've heard of an Elise held for so long in customs.


 
 i'm tempted ... god, i'm tempted.  but i think i'll play with the toobs that i have currently & put the $ to upgrade from 55" to 65" tv instead.


----------



## pctazhp

geetarman49 said:


> the gec 6as7g is just too far out there ... i would rather put the $ towards new hp or even upgrade my tv to even larger size.
> 
> i'm tempted ... god, i'm tempted.  but i think i'll play with the toobs that i have currently & put the $ to upgrade from 55" to 65" tv instead.


 
 The GEC 6AS7Gs are also outside my universe)) And I can promise you that a full and wonderful life is still possible without the GEC 6080s - not so sure about life without that bigger TV


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> One other thing I will add. I seem to recall that in the past when you and I discussed the HD800S I told you I felt the S had a small degree of "grain" or veil, and I think you questioned that.


 
 I don't think the HD800S has any veil or grain. It certainly sounded more 'full on' in the mids and bass when I swap from the HD800 to the HD800S. This was listening on a Woo Audio WA2 with Bugle Boys drivers and GEC 6AS7G power tubes, using a Metrum Hex DAC.
  
 The owner who let me try the HD800S was watching my face as I listen, hoping that it would be joy but instead my face grimaced lol. Suddenly from a very detailed and clear sound of the HD800, it became so boomy with the HD800S. 
  
 But this is where system matching with the HD800S is important (tubes included), because subsequently I heard the HD800S on a very neutral setup in the Audio Gd Master Series 6 and amp in balanced mode and it sounded glorious. All the details and clarity are there.
  
 You might have found the right tubes in the GEC 6080WA for your HD800S.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Alright what I want to know is are they clinical or more saturated like the 6AS7G. In my physic mind, I've envisage them as sounding more analytical with a tight controlled bass.




I would not call it clinical. _Organic_ would be a much better word. Even _liquid_ in my system: ALAC files, Rega DAC, Elise with Valvo C3g/s, HD 600.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eitTEgJw3c[/VIDEO]


----------



## connieflyer

Just for you @UntilThen Nice album easy jazz and her voice strong..


----------



## connieflyer

One more from that album...


----------



## UntilThen

Thank you. 3 nice songs to listen to. That Thomas Ledin. I don't know what he's singing but it sounds good.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 The title of the song is Through a Rainy Europe. The song is about a trip through Europe, but instead of sunshine it was raining - didn't matter since his girlfriend was along.
  
 Finally I get to practice my Swedish, something that Oskari is reluctant to do.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> *BREAKING NEWS! *My GEC 6080WAs arrived today and 2 hours out of the box (supposedly they already had about 45 hours on them) the result is stunning beyond stunning. Somewhere far out there beyond the moon and stars. @DecentLevi where are your literary skills when I need them???
> 
> The music is so organic it almost seems sacrilegious to try to discuss things like lows, mid-range, highs, imaging, soundstage or even performance with different genres of music.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Really happy for you pct...crossing the fingers did the trick, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


geetarman49 said:


> yes.  let the banners fly & the bells ring out ... finally, the matter of my 'hostaged' elise is resolved --- cbsa apologized for losing track of my shipment & released it today.


 
  
 Really happy for you too, g49...and so glad at least it hasn't 'disappeared'!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...look forward to what you think of her...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


pctazhp said:


> OK. You are leading me to sin. So you at least will owe me a visit in audio Hades ))
> 
> They do have very good controlled bass. Probably the best I have heard on my HD800S. Very impacting but because the bass is so well controlled - not because it is overwhelming. Because of the bass they add back some of that emotional involvement I miss from the Beyer T1s
> 
> ...


 
  
 From what you say, pct, these really are approaching the "coke bottle" sound...and therefore yes @UntilThen, similar to the Chatham 6AS7Gs. "Organic" and @Oskari's _liquid_ I can also relate to with my CV2523s...plus a bit more body than the Chathams.
  
 As I've mentioned in the past, there is indeed a certain "je ne sais quoi" about these GECs - you say the equivalent, pct : "sounds right to me"...and is something that truly cannot really be put into _detailed_ words, alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...the enjoyment just flows out of them in spades...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Glad you don't regret your spontaneous purchase, P...money _*very*_ well spent IMHO...CHEERS!...


----------



## geetarman49

hypnos1 said:


> ... Really happy for you too, g49...and so glad at least it hasn't 'disappeared'!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 thnx, h1 ... will report back asap 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Spork67

geetarman49 said:


> yes.  let the banners fly & the bells ring out ... finally, the matter of my 'hostaged' elise is resolved --- cbsa apologized for losing track of my shipment & released it today.


 
 You sir have the patience of a saint!
 I hope your customs service have waived any import duties for your Elise, given the length of time they held her hostage for.
  

Nazwa zdarzeniaData i czasJednostka pocztowaNadanie przesyłki2016-08-18 15:03FUP Lubliniec 1Wysłanie przesyłki2016-08-18 15:58FUP Lubliniec 1Nadejście przesyłki2016-08-18 17:51WER ZabrzeWysłanie przesyłki2016-08-18 20:57WER ZabrzeNadejście przesyłki2016-08-19 04:18WER WarszawaWysłanie przesyłki z Polski2016-08-20 15:26WER WarszawaPrzyjęcie przesyłki2016-08-24 16:51 SYDNEY
  
  
 Mines in Sydney. Should have it next week. Getting close now...


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> One more from that album...




  
 Aahhh....takes me back, cf - lovely voice. Now how about Crystal Gale? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## connieflyer

Have not heard that name in awhile, have any?


----------



## connieflyer

like this....


----------



## UntilThen

^^ those eyes. I'm mesmerized.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> You sir have the patience of a saint!
> I hope your customs service have waived any import duties for your Elise, given the length of time they held her hostage for.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Import duties? I didn't get slug with any.  I can collect it for you in Sydney and deliver it to you by Christmas.


----------



## Spork67

You're too kind UT.
  
 Actually - that's only 4 months away - might be quicker and safer than Aust. post...
 I'm also hoping not to get hit with any duties, but IIRC Canadiana pay them on most stuff.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> like this....




  
 Oh dear, cf...you would choose the number that justs melts me into a heap - not to mention the singer LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








...thanks anyway!...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Really happy for you pct...crossing the fingers did the trick, lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 H1: "Organic" and "sounds right to me" are really the best terms I can think of to describe my experience with the GEC 6080WAs. It is simply a different experience than I have previously had with the Elise. And I think I start to get myself in trouble when I try to compare them with other tubes.  Perhaps @UntilThen is right when he says I may have found the right combination to use with my HD800S. I can't speculate on how they would sound with other headphones. 
  
 I haven't yet tried them with drivers other than the EL3Ns. I've been curious to see what changes might appear with further burn-in. So far they seem to be staying pretty consistent with what I heard during the first few hours - which is just fine with me. I do think that there may be a little more top end "sparkle" which is just icing on the cake.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> H1: "Organic" and "sounds right to me" are really the best terms I can think of to describe my experience with the GEC 6080WAs. It is simply a different experience than I have previously had with the Elise. And I think I start to get myself in trouble when I try to compare them with other tubes.  Perhaps @UntilThen is right when he says I may have found the right combination to use with my HD800S. I can't speculate on how they would sound with other headphones.
> 
> I haven't yet tried them with drivers other than the EL3Ns. I've been curious to see what changes might appear with further burn-in. So far they seem to be staying pretty consistent with what I heard during the first few hours - which is just fine with me. I do think that there may be a little more top end "sparkle" which is just icing on the cake.


 
  
 Hi pct.
  
 Well, I suspect there are few HPs that wouldn't say thank you, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And if your tubes haven't got very many hours on them yet, I also think they will continue to 'develop' for a good while to come...my "cokes" certainly did...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Top end sparkle is the C3g's trademark of course, but not everyone's cup of tea - will you be giving them another look with your GEC 6080s? Whatever, I hope you continue to enjoy the "different experience"...I'm quite sure you will, LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hi pct.
> 
> Well, I suspect there are few HPs that wouldn't say thank you, lol!
> 
> ...


 
 H1:  I have briefly tried the GECs with the Sylvania WGTs and C3Gs. Both combos were good, but candidly during my short listening sessions with both lacked the magic of the EL3Ns. At least for now, I'm sticking with the EL3Ns and immersed in the listening


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> H1:  I have briefly tried the GECs with the Sylvania WGTs and C3Gs. Both combos were good, but candidly during my short listening sessions with both lacked the magic of the EL3Ns. At least for now, I'm sticking with the EL3Ns and immersed in the listening


 
  
 Doesn't surprise me, pct...as you already know, I found my own personal best combo to be EL3N + GEC CV2523...until tube DAC + ECC31! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. Be careful with the immersion - you might just find yourself _drowning_ LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Doesn't surprise me, pct...as you already know, I found my own personal best combo to be EL3N + GEC CV2523...until tube DAC + ECC31!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 In light of your experience I'm sorely tempted to order a pair of Mullard ECC31 from Langrex. But, given the "magic" I'm now blessed with, that is feeling a little obsessive!!!
  
 Just in the interest of "education", what brand are your ECC31s?


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> In light of your experience I'm sorely tempted to order a pair of Mullard ECC31 from Langrex. But, given the "magic" I'm now blessed with, that is feeling a little obsessive!!!
> 
> Just in the interest of "education", what brand are your ECC31s?


 

 Keep talking up the Mullard ECC31. I'm hoping to sell my still mint pair for $300. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've been comparing Sylvania 6SN7wgt and 7236 with Mullard ECC31 and 7236. The latter combo isn't necessary better. Smoother and treble more tame off. It can sound liquid and nice to listen to. The former has more sparkle and sounds more vivid. However what surprise me was how close the sound was when I made the switch. I guess it will depends on individuals as to which sounds better.
  
 ps... ECC31 does have more bass put very simply.


----------



## connieflyer

What would sound better is you send them to me!  Hope you are well, don't use all the electricity, with this hot weather we may need you to send some stateside!


----------



## UntilThen

CF I love my tubes more than my fav peanut butter. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I'm very keen on your 5998A though. Maybe we can do a trade with some other tubes but not the ECC31. They are priceless now. Even Macro Polo doesn't have one.


----------



## geetarman49

spork67 said:


> You sir have the patience of a saint!
> I hope your customs service have waived any import duties for your Elise, given the length of time they held her hostage for.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 thnx, spork but no saint, me ... but patience could be my middle name 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 as far as waiving anything ... haha ... you must be thinking of another country. 
 i was billed 5% for gst (on the full amt incl the shipping cost) + $9.95 for postal service (handling fee) = $54.21 cdn.   no duties were levied & since i reside in province of alberta, no provincial sales tax.
  
 i think this marks the end of my tube amp acquisitions (yeah, famous last words ...).


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Keep talking up the Mullard ECC31. I'm hoping to sell my still mint pair for $300.


 
 I'm waiting for you-know-who to get elected President and destroy the world's economy. Then I'll offer you $25 and a jar of Skippy peanut butter for your ECC31s


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> In light of your experience I'm sorely tempted to order a pair of Mullard ECC31 from Langrex. But, given the "magic" I'm now blessed with, that is feeling a little obsessive!!!
> 
> Just in the interest of "education", what brand are your ECC31s?


 
  
 Must admit, pct...no way would I pay the ususal current prices for those 31s - I suspect in your system you might not notice sufficient 'improvement' from the EL3Ns to warrant the premium they now command - difference, yes, but to be honest not good "value for money" as such. I was extremely lucky to get my 2x Mullard NR73, 1x Mullard ECC31 (identical to the 73s)...EDIT - for a reasonable price -  and a 'QTL' branded ECC31 for a song on ebay as no-one beat me to recognising it as a slightly different-looking Mullard with a brown base. Given the performance of the EL3N especially in your setup, I really cannot advise spending a great deal on the 31s...(but keep an eagle eye out for some 'sleepers' nonetheless, if the price is right LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







). And keep enjoying the "magic"...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> i think this marks the end of my tube amp acquisitions (yeah, famous last words ...).


 
  
 It's not the end until you see the famous blue dials.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> (but keep an eagle eye out for some 'sleepers' nonetheless, if the price is right LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Keep an eye out for my NOS burn in pair of ECC31 @pctazhp. I'm willing to trade it with your HD800S. This is bigger news than your presidential campaign.


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Must admit, pct...no way would I pay the ususal current prices for those 31s - I suspect in your system you might not notice sufficient 'improvement' from the EL3Ns to warrant the premium they now command - difference, yes, but to be honest not good "value for money" as such. I was extremely lucky to get my 2x Mullard NR73, 1x Mullard ECC31 (identical to the 73s) and a 'QTL' branded ECC31 for a song on ebay as no-one beat me to recognising it as a slightly different-looking Mullard with a brown base. Given the performance of the EL3N especially in your setup, I really cannot advise spending a great deal on the 31s...(but keep an eagle eye out for some 'sleepers' nonetheless, if the price is right LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 My pocketbook and family both thank you profusely


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Keep an eye out for my NOS burn in pair of ECC31 @pctazhp. I'm willing to trade it with your HD800S. This is bigger news than your presidential campaign.


 
 I'm quite certain the ECC31s would be such a quantum leap in sound quality that my remaining HD598s would more than satisfy


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's not the end until you see the famous blue dials.


 
 There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the history of all audio that is more cosmetically sexy than the McIntosh blue. I'll repeat that. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the history of all audio that is more cosmetically sexy than the McIntosh blue.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I'm quite certain the ECC31s would be such a quantum leap in sound quality that my remaining HD598s would more than satisfy


 

 Not only that. It will evoke this reaction.


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp apperanentlly you have not seen me singing a musical melody form Aida in my Speedo's!!  Wow, that is an image I can not erase from my mind now, YUK!


----------



## Spork67

Excuse the noob question - but how does one "burn in" a new amp?
 Do you need headphones connected and have music playing? Or just leave it turned on? (no HPs / no music playing) If playing music, should it be loud? Soft? Or about your normal listening volume?
  
 No - she hasn't arrived yet. Just getting ready for the big day.


----------



## UntilThen

My idea of burn in is just to use Elise as per normal in day to day listening. That means with headphone plug in and listening to music. What's the rush.
  
 After all if you buy a new car, you'll run it in by just driving normally in day to day usage. You wouldn't start the car in the driveway and leave the engine running for hours while it's stationary.


----------



## Spork67

Thanks mate.
 Makes sense - but lots of different ideas on here. Some ppl. talk about burning new amps in for XX hours before even listening to them.
 I'll trust your judgement though and just enjoy listening as soon as I can. Guess it could be interesting, even educational to see (hear?) how tubes etc. change with time.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> My idea of burn in is just to use Elise as per normal in day to day listening. That means with headphone plug in and listening to music. What's the rush.
> 
> After all if you buy a new car, you'll run it in by just driving normally in day to day usage. You wouldn't start the car in the driveway and leave the engine running for hours while it's stationary.


 
  
 I'm old enough to remember the days when you couldn't drive a new car faster than about 50mph for the first thousand miles or so otherwise you could damage the engine.
 You could pay someone to run the car in for you driving it up and down the motorway for the thousand miles before you took the car.
  
 Anyway, I do like you though I was once upset when I bought a new amp and loved it's sound at the outset and then slowly and agonisingly listened day after day as it's character changed for the worse and I had to return it. That's very annoying. I've had the same experience with a headphone too.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Excuse the noob question - but how does one "burn in" a new amp?
> Do you need headphones connected and have music playing? Or just leave it turned on? (no HPs / no music playing) If playing music, should it be loud? Soft? Or about your normal listening volume?
> 
> No - she hasn't arrived yet. Just getting ready for the big day.


 
  
 Well I do as UT, but if you want to explicitly burn it in you need to have something playing through at reasonable volume. 
  
 You can also play a 'burn-in noise' track over and over again, but I wouldn't know if these noises really speed up burning or not.


----------



## Spork67

howie13 said:


> I'm old enough to remember the days when you couldn't drive a new car faster than about 50mph for the first thousand miles or so otherwise you could damage the engine.
> You could pay someone to run the car in for you driving it up and down the motorway for the thousand miles before you took the car.
> 
> Anyway, I do like you though I was once upset when I bought a new amp and loved it's sound at the outset and then slowly and agonisingly listened day after day as it's character changed for the worse and I had to return it. That's very annoying. I've had the same experience with a headphone too.


 
 I'm old enough to remember that too - but only ever owned used cars.
 Concensus seems to be that Elise will improve with age, so I'll enjoy that journey.
  
 ps: you lot are a bad influence.
 I haven't even got my amp yet, but I just bought a pair of EL3Ns and adapters, and I'm not even sure if I bought some 6080s (5998 are sooo expensive!) a couple of days ago or not.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> I'm old enough to remember that too - but only ever owned used cars.
> Concensus seems to be that Elise will improve with age, so I'll enjoy that journey.
> 
> ps: you lot are a bad influence.
> I haven't even got my amp yet, but I just bought a pair of EL3Ns and adapters, and I'm not even sure if I bought some 6080s (5998 are sooo expensive!) a couple of days ago or not.


 
  
 Yes I know, that happens to me too. Tubes and adapters just appear through the post and I can't remember buying them. 
  
 Just today DPD delivered a package from the Netherlands and I can't remember what it is. Makes opening more fun- like Christmas and birthdays all year round.


----------



## UntilThen

Tubes are nostalgic. Even holding them in your hand feels good. Plug them into your tube amp and power it up and it will put a smile on your face. Great sound, nice glow and winter heating are what you get using tubes.
  
 Beware. When you get Elise, you will tube roll.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Yes I know, that happens to me too. Tubes and adapters just appear through the post and I can't remember buying them.
> 
> Just today DPD delivered a package from the Netherlands and I can't remember what it is. Makes opening more fun- like Christmas and birthdays all year round.


 
 OMG. This reminds me of my early Elise days when I was in hyper tube-rolling mode. I was exactly as you describe. Gave me very good laugh


----------



## pctazhp

spork67 said:


> I'm old enough to remember that too - but only ever owned used cars.
> Concensus seems to be that Elise will improve with age, so I'll enjoy that journey.
> 
> ps: you lot are a bad influence.
> I haven't even got my amp yet, but I just bought a pair of EL3Ns and adapters, and I'm not even sure if I bought some 6080s (5998 are sooo expensive!) a couple of days ago or not.


 
 I would like to tell you the power tubes to buy to go with the EL3Ns. It would save you a lot of tube-rolling. But then my good friend @UntilThen would tell you I don't know what I'm talking about 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So I won't mention you should couple the EL3Ns with GEC 6080WAs


----------



## geetarman49

& i got this package yesterday ...
  


  
 why is it that all these front panels look like they've been scrubbed?  has anyone received a perfect looking front?


----------



## pctazhp

geetarman49 said:


> & i got this package yesterday ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 When I received mine back in January the package looked like it had been through a reenactment of World War II. But the front panel was (and remains) perfect. To me one great appeal of the Elise is its classic beauty. If I were you I think I would send a picture to FA to see what they say.


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> & i got this package yesterday ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad you've now got your own 'package',,,AT LAST!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My own front - as with others, I suspect - is indeed different to the rest of the case...the finish is a deliberate matt one (not you UT!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), which has mixed blessings LOL. More classy IMHO...but boy, does it show the dust!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...guaranteed to put to shame those who post photos without wiping with a micro-fibre cloth first! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
  
 Perhaps you can send us a photo to confirm this is what you mean by 'scrubbed'...or that those b's at Customs have been using your _*'precious'*_ to strike their matches on!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(sincerely hope it is just the former, lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> I would like to tell you the power tubes to buy to go with the EL3Ns. It would save you a lot of tube-rolling. But then my good friend @UntilThen would tell you I don't know what I'm talking about
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Fear not pct...will protect you from our dear good friend in this LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS, both!...


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> OMG. This reminds me of my early Elise days when I was in hyper tube-rolling mode. I was exactly as you describe. Gave me very good laugh


 
  
 Thank goodness I'm not the only one. I was beginning to think it was my age


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Glad you've now got your own 'package',,,AT LAST!!!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Mine had similar white streaks, like chalk marks, on the front on the right side. I thought it had been scratched but they came off with a wipe with a damp cloth.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Mine had white streaks, like chalk marks, on the front on the right side. I thought it had been scratched but they came off with a wipe with a damp cloth.


 
  
 Yes indeed H13...despite being what can be a notoriously tricky finish - ie. matt! - I've found the surface does indeed come up good as new with either a micro-fibre or damp soft cloth...preferably not with lime-laden water LOL!!...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed H13...despite being what can be a notoriously tricky finish - ie. matt! - I've found the surface does indeed come up good as new with either a micro-fibre or damp soft cloth...preferably not with lime-laden water LOL!!...


 
  
 No lime in the West of Scotland, H1- just tough, solid granite.


----------



## hypnos1

Hey guys...just wondering if anyone has ever encountered such a thing during listening sessions - very possibly associated with 'burn-in' of different elements in the system after a certain length of time.
  
 Basically, as opposed to the usual _gradual_ change with time on new gear (which can still be quite dramatic), I recently had a slight crackle and sudden noticeable change in sound. In the past this has always been for the _worse_, and usually just down to the need to reseat a tube...then all is well again. But this time it was for the _better_, and certainly not because any of the tubes (or anything else) were only so-so in their contacts. An already wonderfully clear, precise sound became even clearer...and has remained so now for a couple of days - so probably isn't just one of those transitory things that can happen now and again!
  
 And so I can only really put it down to this mysterious phenomenon of ours..._*burn-in*_...presumably of further time on my new DAC...or of even longer on my ECC31s. Whatever, it is a very pleasant surprise indeed...hence my wondering whether I'm alone in my joy - or just imagining it LOL?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> No lime in the West of Scotland, H1- just tough, solid granite.


 
  
 Lucky you, H13...tons of the darned stuff here in my part of Suffolk! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Lucky you, H13...tons of the darned stuff here in my part of Suffolk!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Good for the Geraniums though.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hey guys...just wondering if anyone has ever encountered such a thing during listening sessions - very possibly associated with 'burn-in' of different elements in the system after a certain length of time.
> 
> Basically, as opposed to the usual _gradual_ change with time on new gear (which can still be quite dramatic), I recently had a slight crackle and sudden noticeable change in sound. In the past this has always been for the _worse_, and usually just down to the need to reseat a tube...then all is well again. But this time it was for the _better_, and certainly not because any of the tubes (or anything else) were only so-so in their contacts. An already wonderfully clear, precise sound became even clearer...and has remained so now for a couple of days - so probably isn't just one of those transitory things that can happen now and again!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Maybe you heard a bit of ear gunge moving out of the way. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Seriously though, sometimes if I puff my ears out the sound becomes clearer. Maybe some wax is being dislodged off my ear drum.


----------



## mordy

Hi gman49,
  
 Congrats on getting the Elise! Most likely the front panel (which is a dust magnet) picked up some dust from sitting so long in the Canadian customs. Just use a micro fiber cloth to get the stuff off and I am sure everything will be fine.
  
 Hypnos1,
  
  My personal experience has been that the burn in process, although gradual, suddenly may reach a peak, and at a certain moment in time there is a marked difference for the better - it is opening up or blossoming.
  
 About receiving packages: The US Post Office now has a service where you can sign up to get text messages delivered to your phone, tracking the journey of a package to your mail box. Just got a message that a package was delivered 13 minutes ago. Trouble is that the internet is faster than the mailman - no package yet LOL!
  
 In addition to being addicted to tube amps, I am a flash light junkie - waiting for a 28,000 lumen LED flashlight from China. It uses three 3.7V Li batteries. I discovered a free lifetime supply of these batteries from discarded laptop battery packs. Slice them open, and you usually have 6 batteries. Most of the time at least four of them are in excellent condition....
  
 Checked again - it's here now. Very bright - highlights every speck of dust on my Elise....


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Maybe you heard a bit of ear gunge moving out of the way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hah H13...how did I know you might say something like that, lol?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Actually my very first thought was..._*ear wax!*_...but then I realised this wasn't _internal_ crackle, but the sort that comes through the cans and says...What?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
@mordy's comment  - which cheers me up no end, lol...thanks mordy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - reminds me of such a phenomenon I reported on a long way back...viz. coming back to a set of tubes after a particular session where their sound has managed to remain firm in the mind, only to find a very noticeable leap in performance, and wondering if it was indeed just the memory playing tricks!  I'm sure it isn't just mordy and I who have noticed this. Following on from this therefore, I presume that instead of this 'transformation' happening out of hearing at off/on - while HPs are not (wisely!) on the ears, or attached even - this time I caught it "in the act"...(never thought I'd be _grateful_ for such a 'crackle' LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hah H13...how did I know you might say something like that, lol?!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's the 'heart sink' crackle.


----------



## connieflyer

@hypnos1 as a matter of fact I had a similar experience last week. I had been having trouble with my amppp with humming. I had contacted fa and they thought it was a ground Loop but to send it back to Poland I did not send it I checked a few things them
re was a cold solder joint that I read load that helps some but that was not the problem. I was pretty much fed up with it but then I was listening to it and it started making crackling noises it made a lot of noise 1 day period so I started moving tubes around and taking the volume pot and spinning it back and forth rather vigorously many many times and I got to one spot the humming stopped the noise stopped so I kept on spinning that dial. Since then I have had no humming and no more external noise. I am assuming that there was some crap crud or what-have-you on the volume control pot and that spending it back and forth freed it up nice and clear. This amp has never sounded this quiet since I have had it and it is sounding better than ever. I was just about getting ready to rid myself of it. What a Sony hard disk music server so I could use it with main system which I like. But now that the headphone amp is working so well wish I would have bought the Sony. So it might have just been something electromechanical or perhaps a nerve ending somewhere between your ears and your brain just kind of rewired itself and snap back into place and you are now going to go into your teenage years all over again good luck with that have a good one!


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> @hypnos1 as a matter of fact I had a similar experience last week. I had been having trouble with my app with humming. I had contacted fa and they thought it was a ground Loop but to send it back to Poland I did not send it I checked a few things there was a cold solder joint that I read load that helps some but that was not the problem. I was pretty much fed up with it but then I was listening to it and it started making crackling noises it made a lot of noise 1 day period so I started moving tubes around and taking the volume pot and spinning it back and forth rather vigorously many many times and I got to one spot the humming stopped the noise stopped so I kept on spinning that dial. Since then I have had no humming and no more external noise. I am assuming that there was some crap crud or what-have-you on the volume control pot and that spending it back and forth freed it up nice and clear. This amp has never sounded this quiet since I have had it and it is sounding better than ever. I was just about getting ready to rid myself of it. What a Sony hard disk music server so I could use it with main system which I like. But now that the headphone amp is working so well wish I would have bought the Sony. *So it might have just been something electromechanical *or perhaps a nerve ending somewhere between your ears and your brain just kind of rewired itself and snap back into place and you are now going to go into your teenage years all over again good luck with that have a good one!


 
  
 Very possibly, cf...although I would have expected some kind of early warning signs when turning my vol pot; fiddling with connectors, cans etc. etc. - haven't had the slightest hint of anything amiss.
 Perhaps _internally?_...solder joints; parts within components, effects of heat expansion etc.etc. But if so, one could surely expect more than just the occasional isolated incident - something more regular/persistent?...and most likely in a _detrimental _way, when everything has previously been performing excellently....
  
 So my money is still on the 'burn-in' mystique, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 And as for brain rewiring...it has already taken me in the _opposite_ direction alas!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...(mind you, have no desire whatsoever to be a teenager again anyway, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).


----------



## connieflyer

Same here old age not so bad being a teenager fun but not so great been there done that


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> & i got this package yesterday ...
> 
> 
> why is it that all these front panels look like they've been scrubbed?  has anyone received a perfect looking front?


 
  
 First of all, congrats on getting Elise after all these years.... it's been that long for you right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Those aren't scruff marks. Nothing a damp cloth wouldn't get rid of. Don't use a dry cloth. It will only make it worse. Failing all else, a little black shoe polish will work wonders. Kidding !!!
  
 It's a matte front finish. I have been reading that it's a matt front facia. Looks they name a finish after me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Looking at those brand new sockets makes me so envious. This is a picture I took of Elise when I first received it. It's brand spanking new.


----------



## UntilThen

It's the 27th of August 2016 here downunder. I don't know about your part of the world. Perhaps still 26th. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 On this fateful day 10 months ago, the postman delivered a big package to my front door and that changed my life. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I've been clubbing ever since.
  
 Number 22 !!!


----------



## geetarman49

pctazhp said:


> When I received mine back in January the package looked like it had been through a reenactment of World War II. But the front panel was (and remains) perfect. To me one great appeal of the Elise is its classic beauty. If I were you I think I would send a picture to FA to see what they say.


 

 good idea --- done.


----------



## HOWIE13

geetarman49 said:


> good idea --- done.


 
  
 It's dark and I'm listening at very low volume to Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata with 5998/EL3N's through an SRH 840. This is sublime. Total clarity with retained richness of piano tone.
  
 I close my eyes and imagine I'm secretly eavesdropping from a distance on a great pianist performing in the privacy of his own home. Awesome.
  
 (Elise is the piano, of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> It's dark and I'm listening at very low volume to Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata with 5998/EL3N's through an SRH 840. This is sublime. Total clarity with retained richness of piano tone.
> 
> I close my eyes and imagine I'm secretly eavesdropping from a distance on a great pianist performing in the privacy of his own home. Awesome.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Piano; violin; cello...about the best way to judge an amp's credentials IMHO (not forgetting female voice, lol!)...and Elise makes them all sublime...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Spork67

pctazhp said:


> I would like to tell you the power tubes to buy to go with the EL3Ns. It would save you a lot of tube-rolling. But then my good friend @UntilThen would tell you I don't know what I'm talking about
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Do they have to be the GECs?
 Plenty of other brands at an affordable price - then these.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-RARE-TUBES-GEC-GOLD-GRIDS-ENGLAND-MADE-PAIR-6080-ECC230-BLACK-PLATE-3-MICAS-/272352345469?hash=item3f6976fd7d:g:-ewAAOSwHoFXvlh5


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Piano; violin; cello...about the best way to judge an amp's credentials IMHO (not forgetting female voice, lol!)...and Elise makes them all sublime...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It was a lovely start to the weekend- no moon visible of course 'cos it's West of Scotland. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm more or less now settled on the 5998's as powers (with occasional Xmas tree if I want a huge sound-stage). -PHEW!!
 Having said that I'm waiting for the double EL3N adapters from Mrs X.
  
 So for now I'm concentrating on drivers. This is more difficult as there are so many genres of music. First off with piano though, EL3N's for mellow romantic moonlights and C3g's for more modern percussive pieces like Prokofiev, I think.
  
 Sure- piano, violins and female voice are a real test of an amp and cans to my ears too.


----------



## pctazhp

spork67 said:


> Do they have to be the GECs?
> Plenty of other brands at an affordable price - then these.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-RARE-TUBES-GEC-GOLD-GRIDS-ENGLAND-MADE-PAIR-6080-ECC230-BLACK-PLATE-3-MICAS-/272352345469?hash=item3f6976fd7d:g:-ewAAOSwHoFXvlh5


 
 Please understand that this is just my personal opinion and experience. I have a pair of Mullard 6080s and they are not at all as good as the GECs. In fact there are almost no similarities between the Mullards and GECs.
  
 Since receiving my Elise in January I have tried many tube combos - many of the ones that seem to draw consistent praise here. But nothing I have tried in my experience compares to the EL3N/GEC 6080WA combination. The GECs you are looking at look exactly the same as mine. They are not cheap, but you can easily spend much, much more on other tubes and other combinations.
  
 I wish I could give you a detailed description of what I find so special with this particular combination. I have frequently posted here and in the other thread detailed descriptions of various combinations. But with the EL3N/GEC combination the best description I have been able to come up with is "organic" and "just sound right". 
  
 The Elise is a truly special amp and will sound wonderful with a broad variety of tubes. But I feel pretty confident in saying that I think you would be pretty happy with the pair you are looking at, and even save yourself a lot of money that you might spend in trying other tubes.
  
 Hope this helps some.


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> Do they have to be the GECs?
> Plenty of other brands at an affordable price - then these.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-RARE-TUBES-GEC-GOLD-GRIDS-ENGLAND-MADE-PAIR-6080-ECC230-BLACK-PLATE-3-MICAS-/272352345469?hash=item3f6976fd7d:g:-ewAAOSwHoFXvlh5


 
  
 Hold you hard S67..._*no way*_ do you (or should you!) need to spend that kind of SILLY money on a pair of GEC 6080s...wouldn't pay that for the "Holy Grail" coke bottle CV2523/A1834!!
  
 Hang on and keep your eyes open for a more sensibly priced pair...you might well have to be patient, but good used ones do turn up now and again...persistence pays LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. And your patience would be well rewarded...they are indeed extremely well-regarded 6080s...GOOD LUCK!...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hold you hard S67..._*no way*_ do you (or should you!) need to spend that kind of SILLY money on a pair of GEC 6080s...wouldn't pay that for the "Holy Grail" coke bottle CV2523/A1834!!
> 
> Hang on and keep your eyes open for a more sensibly priced pair...you might well have to be patient, but good used ones do turn up now and again...persistence pays LOL!
> 
> ...


 
 OMG!!! I misread the price. Agree. Crazy to spend that kind of money for the GEC. I am totally embarrassed and humiliated


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> OMG!!! I misread the price. Agree. Crazy to spend that kind of money for the GEC. I am totally embarrassed and humiliated


 
  
 You are forgiven, my child..._but don't do it again LOL!!_








...(still can't get over the brazen cheek of the guy!! Let's just hope he's given a very wide berth!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> You are forgiven, my child..._but don't do it again LOL!!_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 So appreciate your forgiveness. I am not worthy. I am not worthy


----------



## Oskari

That guy is a disgrace.

(Not you, pct! )


----------



## geetarman49

pctazhp said:


> When I received mine back in January the package looked like it had been through a reenactment of World War II. But the front panel was (and remains) perfect. To me one great appeal of the Elise is its classic beauty. If I were you I think I would send a picture to FA to see what they say.


 
  
  


hypnos1 said:


> Glad you've now got your own 'package',,,AT LAST!!!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Mine had similar white streaks, like chalk marks, on the front on the right side. I thought it had been scratched but they came off with a wipe with a damp cloth.


 
  
  


hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed H13...despite being what can be a notoriously tricky finish - ie. matt! - I've found the surface does indeed come up good as new with either a micro-fibre or damp soft cloth...preferably not with lime-laden water LOL!!...


 
  
  


mordy said:


> Hi gman49,
> 
> Congrats on getting the Elise! Most likely the front panel (which is a dust magnet) picked up some dust from sitting so long in the Canadian customs. Just use a micro fiber cloth to get the stuff off and I am sure everything will be fine.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> First of all, congrats on getting Elise after all these years.... it's been that long for you right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 okay, @pctazhp @hypnos1 @HOWIE13 @mordy @UntilThen   -  thnx for all the comments/suggestions -- here's the result after a half-doz or so wiping with dry and moistened with distilled water microfibre:
  

  
 (sorry for the crappy photo and different angle --- big box blocking access from other direction)
  
 better?  you be the judge.


----------



## pctazhp

geetarman49 said:


> okay, @pctazhp @hypnos1 @HOWIE13 @mordy @UntilThen   -  thnx for all the comments/suggestions -- here's the result after a half-doz or so wiping with dry and moistened with distilled water microfibre:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Candidly. It doesn't look acceptable to me.


----------



## geetarman49

notwithstanding cosmetic issue, sound with jan 6sn7wgt and rca 6as7g using t1 is quite alright --- barely 2 hr in.  needs more burn-in before i switch to some heavy hitters ... ie el3n, 6080 ...


----------



## HOWIE13

geetarman49 said:


> okay, @pctazhp @hypnos1 @HOWIE13 @mordy @UntilThen   -  thnx for all the comments/suggestions -- here's the result after a half-doz or so wiping with dry and moistened with distilled water microfibre:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hard to tell from the photo because the camera can pick up dust and marks which the eye doesn't notice. I mean, those white marks on the top I take it is dust?


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> okay, @pctazhp @hypnos1 @HOWIE13 @mordy @UntilThen   -  thnx for all the comments/suggestions -- here's the result after a half-doz or so wiping with dry and moistened with distilled water microfibre:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 As H13 says, difficult to tell exactly from your photo, alas...but I must admit your original photo certainly did seem to indicate a less-than-perfect finish, and one that I'm quite sure FA would never have shipped thus. One can only surmise that _*something*_ happened while all that time in Customs....difficult one to be sure, but will be interesting to see what FA have to say LOL...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.If they confirm this has happened post-shipping, hopefully you have some kind of comeback with those b's at Customs?...surely they are obliged to compensate for any damage caused by their actions? But I dread to think of just how 'easy' that may be!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...Wishing you the best of luck with it...and looking forward to your further impressions with more hours on her - not to mention with the 'big hitters' in place...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HOWIE13

@geetarman49
  
 Maybe if you could move the big box and post some closer photos from more angles it would be easier to advise. That one photo from the side is difficult to assess.
  
 To me the top looks fine.


----------



## UntilThen

@geetarman49 looking at your photo I can tell you've clean the front facia till it's bone dry. You don't want to do that because that surface will look powdery white when you do that. Use a damp cloth and I mean quite damp but not dripping with water. Swap it a few times over the surface till moisture covers over the entire surface. Then let any residue moisture dry by itself.
  
 Here I have 3 photos which I just did. The first I use a damp cloth but quite dry. You can see residue white powdery marks which the camera will pic up.


 2nd photo the cloth is more damp now but still not good. Still not perfect.

  
  
 3rd picture I make sure the cloth still retains that wetness and apply it to the front facia. Now it's pitch black and Elise sounds wet too. Whoever use this description of Elise sound, nails it. There's a certain wetness to the sound which is really refreshing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 All 3 photos are taken with the same Nikon D5100 slr with 18-55mm lens and flash. I have the Canon 6D with Canon 24-70mm f2.8L II USM which is incredibly sharp but that's very wide angle at full frame. No post editing here.
  

  
 PS... need I remind you that this tube combination is giving me goose bumps. It's a hair rising experience.


----------



## UntilThen

Honestly it's a love - hate affair of the front facia for me. There's are times I felt it's ok. No fuss, simple and good matte look and finish but other times I wish they use other finish or a classy brushed stainless steel look in black.
  
 It's a fine balancing act of keeping Elise cost reasonable. 
  
 It's the sound that they have nail it. Absolutely gorgeous. Even modded HD650 sounds superb on it. The dynamat does wonders to tighten up the bass. 
  
@geetarman49 waiting to hear further impressions from you with the various tubes you've amassed.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Honestly it's a love - hate affair of the front facia for me. There's are times I felt it's ok. No fuss, simple and good matte look and finish but other times I wish they use other finish or a classy brushed stainless steel look in black.
> 
> It's a fine balancing act of keeping Elise cost reasonable.
> 
> ...


 
 You have a much more serious problem than the front facia of your amp. The matte color on your ECC31s shows that they are close to the end and ready to be transferred to tube nursing home here in Scottsdale


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> You have a much more serious problem than the front facia of your amp. The matte color on your ECC31s shows that they are close to the end and ready to be transferred to tube nursing home here in Scottsdale


 
 True to my name, the matte color follows me everywhere I go. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ECC31 and 5998 is indeed one of the best combination on my Elise. However I've a few combinations here I felt that share the same pedestal. It's my Utopia. Just last night I was thinking it would be nice to get a DNA Stratus sometime down the track but with Elise sounding this good.... that day may never come.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm clubbing everyday !!! till I get to Finland to see @Oskari .


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Do they have to be the GECs?
> Plenty of other brands at an affordable price - then these.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-RARE-TUBES-GEC-GOLD-GRIDS-ENGLAND-MADE-PAIR-6080-ECC230-BLACK-PLATE-3-MICAS-/272352345469?hash=item3f6976fd7d:g:-ewAAOSwHoFXvlh5


 

 What??? !!! US$700 for a pair of GEC 6080WA ???? Are you serioussssssssss ?
  
 I'm going back to my sterile ss sounding JDS Lab o2+odac limited edition that I've sold off. It won't cost me my left kidney.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I'm clubbing everyday !!! till I get to Finland to see @Oskari.




Awesome, but I promise I won't take you clubbing, I hate nightclubs.


----------



## UntilThen

@Spork67  I take it back. T1 and HD800 are not the only headphones I'd recommend with Elise.
  
 Have HE-560 on now and I'm seeing and hearing stars. Just buy this planar magnetic and may the force be with you. It's intoxicatingly smooth and sparkling. It will be a tough choice for me picking those 3 headphones. Just get all of them.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Awesome, but I promise I won't take you clubbing, I hate nightclubs.


 
  
 What? In my mind you're a young Bruce Springsteen and you dance exactly like him.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> True to my name, the matte color follows me everywhere I go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Last night I was thinking it would be nice down the line to get Kate Upton and......Oh never mind!!
  
 A while back before I ordered the GEC 6080s I had ordered these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111600090554?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 They took a long time to get here but finally arrived yesterday. Just for fun I've been listening to them most of today. They really are pretty amazing. Given the cost, they are certainly the best value tubes I have ever put into the Elise. I'm pretty burned out in trying to describe the sound of different tubes and I'm sure they need more burn-in. Right now, I will say that they didn't mate too well with the EL3Ns. The EL3Ns just overwhelmed them. But with the Sylvania 6SN7-WGTs they are quite nice. And after they have burned-in a little more I'm going to try them again with the EL3Ns.
  
 They certainly won't replace the GECs, but they would not be seriously embarrassed in comparison to a number of the other power tubes I have. To me, buying a pair is pretty much a no-brainer. Particular for someone starting out who wants to go slow on spending a lot of money on tubes, but who also wants to be experiencing the magic of Elise the rest of us talk about. 
  
 PS.  I should qualify everything I just said by saying these new tubes look almost identical to the stock power tubes. For all I know, they may be the same. I haven't used the stock tubes for months.I thought the stock powers were re-issues and the ones I just got are supposed to be NOS. But who knows?? The Shadow knows (for Old Geezers who listened to old radio shows pre-TV)


----------



## UntilThen

^^ those are indeed the stock power tubes used in Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now on their own, they sound pretty good but like all things in life, there's Kate Upton and more.


----------



## DavidA

UT, thanks for the blast from the past with "Dancing in the Dark" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Haven't listened to it for years, it was one of my favorites back in college


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> UT, thanks for the blast from the past with "Dancing in the Dark"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You have to thank @Oskari  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 That's my image of him.


----------



## connieflyer

Who knows what what evil lurks in the hearts of man


----------



## UntilThen

Continuing on the HE560 which I feel is a very good headphone but one forgotten especially with so many newer brands and models on the market.
  
 This is a good review of HE560.
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/hifiman-he-560/reviews/11635#comments-title
  
 Agree with what the reviewer says. Particularly I find that HE560 sounds incredible with a tube amp like Elise. I'm so in love with vocals from this headphone. It's a cringe worthy experience.
  
@Spork67 definitely consider the HE-560.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Just back from a meet in Denver...

Elise attended with 5998's and C3G's. It was admired by a number of aficionados. One classical music lover was especially enthralled. All others who listened to it, liked it. One Ember owner sounded like he was headed for Elise...as soon as possible.

A couple of fellows remarked that they thought the retail price was $1700.00!! I corrected them, but maybe FA needs to get the word out better, that it's a bargain.

There were other interesting Tube amps. A DIY Crack sounded really really good, I was quite surprised at how nice it sounded.

And there was a really big league Tube Amp that sounded better than all others, an "ALO Studio 6" amp, connected to a Yggy DAC, some kind of really fancy "USB clarifier stage" and cables thick enough to repel off a 14,000 ft mountain with. All this went out to HD800 that were "modded by Stefan Audio Art"....

Lemme tell ya, it was an awesome rig! Not sure awesome covers it! If money were no object, I would love to own this rig.

We also had a lot of fun blind testing DAC's. The 4490 Modi vs the Yggy...I lot of people took the challenge...and most did pick the Yggy ($2000.00 +) over the Modi 4490 ($200.00) but there were a lot of varied opinions. Many said it was really really close, some others said it was night and day, - Yggy better. 

I did pick Yggy and it seemed to me to have more "inner detail" instruments sounded more natural and realistic. Was not night and day for me...but definitely apparent that the more expensive DAC sounded more "analog like".

Speaking of Analog, one fellow had his turntable with his Pink Floyd record collection. Table was a Technics SL-1200 and he had on his Denon DL-103 cartridge, a low output Moving Coil (a heck of a nice cartridge). He had a tube cartridge preamp (he didn't say what tube was in it, you didn't see the tube) and then out to a special 'transformer coupled' SS amp.

It was really interesting to go listen to Pink Floyd via any digital rig, via any level of DAC/AMP/Headphones you wanted to, then go sit with the Turntable Guy and listen again via his non-DAC rig. The Turntable was (in my opinion) vastly superior at sounding real, and like you were in the room, with the musicians. Yes, the digital is great too, but this was the perfect way to compare a "DAC to analog" to "real analog". For me, "real analog" won the day by a large margin.

The big hit in the gear I brought, was a my portable "listen at work" system. Which consists of the Koss KSC-75 (modded) phones, the Sony NWZ-A17 DAP which feeds an AMB Mini^3 amp via a line out cord. 

This rig amazed everyone who listened. Many said "I didn't expect it to sound THAT good". One fellow who handed it off to his bud...his bud grimaced, but the friend said "I know it LOOKS flimsy, but your HAVE to hear it. I think everyone was amazed at how great the rig sounds for such tiny money (especially compared to some multi-thousand dollar rigs that were at the meet)

Many got out their cell phones and went for the Notepad app and asked: "Which Phones, What Mod, Which DAP, which AMP..."

Here is a pic of the portable rig that surprised so many with it's outstanding SQ...






It was a great day, I had a lot of fun!!








.


----------



## connieflyer

A little Celtic Harp for those of you that needs a little diversion from the norm


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> Just back from a meet in Denver...
> 
> Elise attended with 5998's and C3G's. It was admired by a number of aficionados. One classical music lover was especially enthralled. All others who listened to it, liked it. One Ember owner sounded like he was headed for Elise...as soon as possible.
> 
> A couple of fellows remarked that they thought the retail price was $1700.00!! I corrected them, but maybe FA needs to get the word out better, that it's a bargain.





> Speaking of Analog, one fellow had his turntable with his Pink Floyd record collection. Table was a Technics SL-1200 and he had on his Denon DL-103 cartridge, a low output Moving Coil (a heck of a nice cartridge). He had a tube cartridge preamp (he didn't say what tube was in it, you didn't see the tube) and then out to a special 'transformer coupled' SS amp.
> 
> It was really interesting to go listen to Pink Floyd via any digital rig, via any level of DAC/AMP/Headphones you wanted to, then go sit with the Turntable Guy and listen again via his non-DAC rig. The Turntable was (in my opinion) vastly superior at sounding real, and like you were in the room, with the musicians. Yes, the digital is great too, but this was the perfect way to compare a "DAC to analog" to "real analog". For me, "real analog" won the day by a large margin.


 
  
 Thanks for sharing what must have been a very enjoyable day for you. Going to a meet with lots of great gear is an eye opener.
  
 Speaking of eye opener or should that be ear opener ... is Elise with C3G and 5998. Glad you brought those tubes to the meet because it will impress. Clearly one of the very good sounding combo on Elise IMO.
  
 As for turntable, all I have to do is close my eyes and listen to my Denon DP300F and I'm sure it will sound like the Linn Sondek. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's true that if I get so much enjoyment from an entry level deck, how much better will the accomplished performers be. TT or DAC, I think you can get great sound to your liking if you find the right gear. I've no reason to like one over the other, other than convenience or the pure joy of pulling out the LP from the cover and placing it on the turntable and dropping the needle. I'm sure I'll be corrected that it's not a needle but a stylus.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Thanks for sharing what must have been a very enjoyable day for you. Going to a meet with lots of great gear is an eye opener.
> 
> Speaking of eye opener or should that be ear opener ... is Elise with C3G and 5998. Glad you brought those tubes to the meet because it will impress. Clearly one of the very good sounding combo on Elise IMO.
> 
> As for turntable, all I have to do is close my eyes and listen to my Denon DP300F and I'm sure it will sound like the Linn Sondek.   It's true that if I get so much enjoyment from an entry level deck, how much better will the accomplished performers be. TT or DAC, I think you can get great sound to your liking if you find the right gear. I've no reason to like one over the other, other than convenience or the pure joy of pulling out the LP from the cover and placing it on the turntable and dropping the needle. I'm sure I'll be corrected that it's not a needle but a stylus. :bigsmile_face:




A big jump in analog quality for you would be heard in a better cartridge and cartridge preamp.

One, just *might* be better than the other, when you have the "big boy" cart and preamp  

But there is no doubt whatsoever that Vinyl is not "endless stream" like digital, and is vastly less convenient.

So it's not for most folks, for that one reason, alone.

Cheers....


----------



## Spork67

.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> Continuing on the HE560 which I feel is a very good headphone but one forgotten especially with so many newer brands and models on the market.
> 
> This is a good review of HE560.
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/hifiman-he-560/reviews/11635#comments-title
> ...


 
 I did consider it. In fact that was the first of the HiFiman gear I lusted after.
 But for several reasons, price being one of them, I opted for some 400i's. If I find I really like the planar sound I will consider getting the more expensive model down the track.
  
 I've removed my earlier post about the 400i being sent to the wrong address - apparently ebays "new" Global Shipping Scheme (servive?) or whatever it's called does this. I hadn't seen as item marked by the tracking as delivered before unless it was actually delivered to the final recipient, so I did panic a little.
  
 Hope I didn't upset the poor guy selling them...


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I did consider it. In fact that was the first of the HiFiman gear I lusted after.
> But for several reasons, price being one of them, I opted for some 400i's. If I find I really like the planar sound I will consider getting the more expensive model down the track.
> 
> I've removed my earlier post about the 400i being sent to the wrong address - apparently ebays "new" Global Shipping Scheme (servive?) or whatever it's called does this. I hadn't seen as item marked by the tracking as delivered before unless it was actually delivered to the final recipient, so I did panic a little.
> ...


 

 Did you get the HE-400i ? Elise should be delivered to you coming week. Oh the excitement.


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> A big jump in analog quality for you would be heard in a better cartridge and cartridge preamp.
> 
> One, just *might* be better than the other, when you have the "big boy" cart and preamp


 
 All in good time. I'm not Bill Gates.


----------



## Spork67

The 400i are on their way, as is Elise.
 Possibly get my Stax amp back soon too so I will be able to try the e-stats as well.


----------



## pctazhp

@JazzVinyl. Thanks so much for your report on the meet. I know it takes time and some hard work to write something like that. I find many meet reports to be a little tedious and my eyes start to glaze over. You have a nice and enjoyable writing style. Again, thanks


----------



## UntilThen

@Spork67 take a trip to Sydney and listen to this setup of mine and other tube combos. post #13024
  
 It's the reason for getting Elise. So tunable and sounding great with most tubes.
  
 Enjoy you've a lot of stuff to try out in the coming weeks.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> @Spork67 take a trip to Sydney and listen to this setup of mine and other tube combos. post #13024
> 
> It's the reason for getting Elise. So tunable and sounding great with most tubes.
> 
> Enjoy you've a lot of stuff to try out in the coming weeks.


 
 Air-fares would probably be cheaper than buying tubes and doing my own experimenting - but maybe not as much fun...
 I seldom go further north than Melbourne, where most my family are, but if I do go to or through Sydney at some stage I may just take you up on that.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> @JazzVinyl. Thanks so much for your report on the meet. I know it takes time and some hard work to write something like that. I find many meet reports to be a little tedious and my eyes start to glaze over. You have a nice and enjoyable writing style. Again, thanks




Thanks...

Here is the bad boy amp that was at the meet today:

https://www.aloaudio.com/shop/studio-six/


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> I did consider it. In fact that was the first of the HiFiman gear I lusted after.
> But for several reasons, price being one of them, I opted for some 400i's. If I find I really like the planar sound I will consider getting the more expensive model down the track.
> 
> I've removed my earlier post about the 400i being sent to the wrong address - apparently ebays "new" Global Shipping Scheme (servive?) or whatever it's called does this. I hadn't seen as item marked by the tracking as delivered before unless it was actually delivered to the final recipient, so I did panic a little.
> ...


 
  
 I thought the same first time- I think it's to do with the tax system.


----------



## HOWIE13

@JazzVinyl 
  
_'One classical music lover was especially enthralled'._
  
 That figures. It's my overall favourite combination in Elise for Classical.


----------



## Spork67

howie13 said:


> I thought the same first time- I think it's to do with the tax system.


 
  
 Shouldn't have to pay any tax on a second-hand item, as the original purchaser has already paid the tax, and (at least here) there is no tax even on new items < $1000.
 I suspect it's more to do with ebay wanting a bigger slice of the pie. It seems to be both a slow and an expensive shipping method, and I will try to avoid having to use it in future.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Shouldn't have to pay any tax on a second-hand item, as the original purchaser has already paid the tax, and (at least here) there is no tax even on new items < $1000.
> I suspect it's more to do with ebay wanting a bigger slice of the pie. It seems to be both a slow and an expensive shipping method, and I will try to avoid having to use it in future.


 
  
 You sure are lucky with your tax laws. We are taxed 21% on anything, even if second hand, over £15 and they even tax the postage too. Royal Mail add on their fee as well.
  
 I agree Global Shipping is a laborious process and they use a very slow UK carrier, which doesn't move anything over the entire weekend.
  
 It can avoid long delays in Customs, however, and is usually not much more expensive, if at all, than the usual method of shipping to the UK, when you factor in the taxes and charges.


----------



## connieflyer

A little easy start to the day, a nice litte mezzo soprano  ..


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


>




  
 She has a lovely voice. I always think she looks like a 'Barbie Doll'


----------



## connieflyer

Been listening to her for years now, great voice, watched the tv show dancing with stars for the only time when she was on it. Did quite well, lovely form!


----------



## JazzVinyl

howie13 said:


> @JazzVinyl
> 
> 
> _'One classical music lover was especially enthralled'._
> ...




This same fellow spent the whole day checking out the various combinations with his source, which was big church organs preforming classical pieces, which presents the full gamut of timbre and tones to reproduce.

He really concentrated, he currently owns Grado SR325 and some AKG's and he really seemed to want to get away from these two phones.

He noted (and I agreed) that all of the big dollar rigs seemed to be "rich liquidy midrange" oriented and all seemed rather "bass polite". He said he was looking for the rich mids but also wanted those low organ notes (as well as sub sonics) to come pounding through as well.

I don't think he picked a clear winner at the meet and noted he had been looking for a little over 2 years.

I asked him at the end of the day what the overall best candidate was and he said my Silver Cabled 580's and Elise, but he was concerned that not all 580's sound like mine, since mine have an after-market cable (no longer made) and a some diy mods.

It was also interesting that the majority of attendees said they believed that the headphone was 90% of where the satisfaction come from, DAC and AMP were low on their list of importance. 

.


----------



## JazzVinyl

I thought the ETHER C's were fantastic and one fellow had a beefy portable amp that could rive them, said they were his work rig, He had all hi-res files on his DAP, it did sound amazing, for a large and "portable impractical"...portable rig.

There was also a pair of Audio Zenith PMx2 http://www.audiozenith.com/ that I thought were absolutely fantastic, even if in the 'bass polite' category. They were so good that they gave concern to the fellows who had spent far more on their headphones (think these cost $1400.00, so, come in at $300.00 less than ETHER-C's).





.


----------



## connieflyer

Sounds like alot of people have not listened to many tube amps, to decide that the phones are 90% of the sound.  I agree they make a very big difference, but I don't think, in my opinion that it is that large %. Have listened to many combos at home, where I can spend lots of time with them and find the tube amps make a big difference, adding i characteristics of the different tubes.  Nice job on your summation of the show, lots of effort, thanks.


----------



## connieflyer

Nice percussion group with hammered dulcimer


----------



## JazzVinyl

connieflyer said:


> Sounds like alot of people have not listened to many tube amps, to decide that the phones are 90% of the sound.  I agree they make a very big difference, but I don't think, in my opinion that it is that large %. Have listened to many combos at home, where I can spend lots of time with them and find the tube amps make a big difference, adding i characteristics of the different tubes.  Nice job on your summation of the show, lots of effort, thanks.




I don't know, CF, there were some very experienced audiophile types there.

Not saying they are right or wrong. I stayed with the Audio Zenith phones for about an hour while many folks came by and listened to them. I asked each one, what they thought and the comments ranged from "Absolutely fantastic, I am saving up for a pair" to a shoulder shrug, and grunt.

It seems everyone hears differently and what is top flight to one, barely garners a notice from another.

I did note as well some absolutely fantastic SS amps that I got no perception that anything at all was missing that a tube amp would have helped.

There was an Oppo HA1 in attendance, that I thought was superb. The owner was selling it, saying he liked his Cavelli Liquid Carbon better (which I thought paled next to Oppo HA1).

So it's individual ears....for sure.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> A little easy start to the day, a nice litte mezzo soprano  ..




  
 Yo, cf...nice voice...but not in the same league as your Jessye Norman or Renee Fleming 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 - but only my own opinion, of course LOL!


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> *Sounds like alot of people have not listened to many tube amps, to decide that the phones are 90% of the sound.*  I agree they make a very big difference, but I don't think, in my opinion that it is that large %. Have listened to many combos at home, where I can spend lots of time with them and find the tube amps make a big difference, adding i characteristics of the different tubes.  Nice job on your summation of the show, lots of effort, thanks.


 
  
 Yes indeed cf...let's get real - headphones (or speakers, of course) are only going to be as good as what's _*feeding*_ them LOL...surely?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed cf...*let's get real* - headphones (or speakers, of course) are only going to be as good as what's _*feeding*_ them LOL...surely?!!




There is plenty of great SS gear out there too.

Toobs ain't the "be all end all" :rolleyes:  ...


LOL!!!


----------



## HOWIE13

jazzvinyl said:


> This same fellow spent the whole day checking out the various combinations with his source, which was big church organs preforming classical pieces, which presents the full gamut of timbre and tones to reproduce.
> 
> He really concentrated, he currently owns Grado SR325 and some AKG's and he really seemed to want to get away from these two phones.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's very interesting. Low organ notes are a challenge as they are felt rather than heard, and would take very good components to reproduce well, especially the 'rumble' below about 25Hz.
  
 As far as very deep church organ bass goes I must say Grados and AKG's would not be my choice. 
  
 Actually, you really need floor speakers and a sub-woofer to feel in your bones the vibrations of those 16Hz 32ft organ pipes.
  
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9rZjlsyYY


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Yo, cf...nice voice...but not in the same league as your Jessye Norman or Renee Fleming
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 She has a wide repertoire of the more popular songs and hymns, but, sadly, I don't think she sings much Lieder. as Norman and Fleming do.  She's a bit media processed but I guess that's the way it is so often these days.
  
 I heard Jessye Norman in San Francisco many years ago in one of the free Golden Gate Park concerts. Her voice carried for a huge distance, and no microphones either.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> There is plenty of great SS gear out there too.
> 
> Toobs ain't the "be all end all"
> 
> ...


 
  
 Too true JV...but still _*feeding*_ the transducers!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - plus of course the actual media playback source, whether TT or digi to then DAC lol...


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> There is plenty of great SS gear out there too.
> 
> Toobs ain't the "be all end all"
> 
> ...


 
 I like to think that life outside of Elise-land is for the hard of hearing or stupid people. But guess is just ain't so 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Schiit's new Jotumheim offers a fully balanced solid state amp that works with a broad range of headphones and IEMs for $400. Add a balanced DAC module for an extra $100. Hmmmm. Makes me think of the extra XLR cable that came with my HD800S that has never been out of the box and I'm sure is feeling very neglected
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm sure you derive great satisfaction out of knowing the DAC module is non-multibit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 PS. No need to remind me that all my tubes wouldn't add much to the Jotumheim unless they possess some Peter Belt magic powers


----------



## pctazhp

Ahhhh))) Today back to EL3N/GEC6080WA and pure listening delight


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> That's very interesting. Low organ notes are a challenge as they are felt rather than heard, and would take very good components to reproduce well, especially the 'rumble' below about 25Hz.
> 
> As far as very deep church organ bass goes I must say Grados and AKG's would not be my choice.
> 
> ...


 

 My thoughts too. You'd need a subwoofer which is why I listen at times to the lounge system when I want some bone shaking bass.
  
 On the subject of the Oppo HA1, I know LJ sold off hers when she had the LF 339.


----------



## UntilThen

Back to tubes and tubeland with Elise this morning after another day out yesterday. I wouldn't want any SS amps here.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Ahhhh))) Today back to EL3N/GEC6080WA and pure listening delight


 

 I'm back to EL3N and the unprintable back ends. It's pure listening delight out of my T1. I'll make it a point to use this over Christmas. It's the right color.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm back to EL3N and the unprintable back ends. It's pure listening delight out of my T1. I'll make it a point to use this over Christmas. It's the right color.


 
 So funny. I had idea last night that we should declare a moratorium on the anti-Christmas-tree ban on this thread over Christmas


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Back to tubes and tubeland with Elise this morning after another day out yesterday. I wouldn't want any SS amps here.


 
 It didn't taste good, but I have already washed my mouth out with soap


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> So funny. I had idea last night that we should declare a moratorium on the anti-Christmas-tree ban on this thread over Christmas


 

 I shall call it the Scartlett O'hara tubes then. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I'll be auditioning for the next Gone With The Wind.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I shall call it the Scartlett O'hara tubes then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You will make a dashing Rhett )))


----------



## UntilThen

Cetron 7236 will be delivered today but I won't be home. !!!
  
 Good news though my rock orchid bloom for the 1st time so spectacularly in many years. All happening in the 10 months since I had Elise. Coincidence? I think not. It's been sharing my music with Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Tip here. If you have a plant that is not flowering well, put it next to you when you listen to music. It better be good sound or it will kill the plant. !!!


----------



## Spork67

I walked out the front door to go to work this morning - and almost tripped over a parcel.
 She's here!
 Needless to say I was 1/2 hour late to work today, and will make every effort to leave early this afternoon.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I walked out the front door to go to work this morning - and almost tripped over a parcel.
> She's here!
> Needless to say I was 1/2 hour late to work today, and will make every effort to leave early this afternoon.


 

 You can't go to work with Scartlett O'hara at the front door.


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> I don't know, CF, there were some very experienced audiophile types there.
> 
> Not saying they are right or wrong. I stayed with the Audio Zenith phones for about an hour while many folks came by and listened to them. I asked each one, what they thought and the comments ranged from "Absolutely fantastic, I am saving up for a pair" to a shoulder shrug, and grunt.
> 
> ...




The HA1 is a dac and amp. He weak part is the sabre dac. The amp section is pretty good. I sold mine too and like my Liquid Carbon just as much as the HA1.
It actually sounds much better than the HA1 when paired wih a good dac. I am running the LC and a HegelnHD12 as my office rig. Much better than the HA1it replaced..

Not sure where you got your price on a prevous post about the Ether Cs, but they are $1500.00 .

Cheers


----------



## mordy

HI UT,
  
 Thought you listened to the Elise indoors, but now I see that you must have it outside by the swimming pool lol.....
  





This plant is called a Sydney Rock Orchid.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah yes they are call Sydney Rock Orchids and they look spectacular in bloom.

The pool is a pain in the butt now. No one swims in it but I have to keep it clean. Perhaps I should throw some kois in it like @hypnos1.


----------



## mordy

U don't have a salt water pool?


----------



## mordy

Revisited my Chatham 6080 room warmers with the EL3N - don't think I tried this before.
  
 The bass is really strong and very well controlled; better than the 7236, but the 7236 has a sweeter mid range and treble.
  
 I always felt that the Chatham 6080's were too punchy, but with the EL3N tubes they are excellent.
  
 They are running at 95C or 202F with my fan on. In contrast, the Austrian tubes are running at 35C/95F.
  
 Next I have to try the Chatham 6AS7G again.
  
 Everything sounds good with the Elise.....


----------



## UntilThen

It is a salt water pool but I've to help the creepy crawly by scooping up the surface leaves and the occasional ducks that swims in it. They are roast ducks now.

You're becoming like me. Everything sounds good in Elise.

Ive always thought the Mullard 6080 sounded good with EL3N and even 6SN7s. You have the Chatham 6080 though. I wonder how different they are.


----------



## pctazhp

I hope everyone had a nice weekend, and may your lives always be full of self-cleaning pools


----------



## UntilThen

It's Monday here. You're behind time. 

I'm still out. By the time I get home the Cetrons should be at the front door.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's Monday here. You're behind time.
> 
> I'm still out. By the time I get home the Cetrons should be at the front door.


 
 Not if I get there first


----------



## UntilThen

Did I not show you pictures of my Dobermans.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Did I not show you pictures of my Dobermans.


 
 I just decided I'm going to sleep now )))


----------



## mordy

HI UT,
  
 I have the Mullard 6080 as well - will try to do a comparison. From memory the Mullards are warmer; the Chatham 6080 I always felt were hard hitting, punchy tubes. Now I have to try to hunt down the GEC 6080 tubes....


----------



## UntilThen

I list all my tubes in my home insurance declarations. These ancient tubes are serious business. They are near extinct species now.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 No nightmares.....


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy if you find $6 GEC 6080 remember your long lost mate downunder first.


----------



## mordy

HI CF,
  
 Was it you who asked for a source for socket savers?


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> I walked out the front door to go to work this morning - and almost tripped over a parcel.
> She's here!
> Needless to say I was 1/2 hour late to work today, and will make every effort to leave early this afternoon.


 
 I don't think you will be concentrating on your work this morning.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> HI UT,
> 
> I have the Mullard 6080 as well - will try to do a comparison. From memory the Mullards are warmer; the Chatham 6080 I always felt were hard hitting, punchy tubes. Now I have to try to hunt down the GEC 6080 tubes....


 
  
 Looking forward to that as I find those Mullards quite cool and clear, rather than warm/lush.
  
 Oh I meant to say I got the GE 6AS7 and I agree it's a very nice tube. Quite warm, but not overly so and clear. As ever, works well with Elise. Cheers.


----------



## HOWIE13

HELP!
  
 Could somebody advise me how, when I post a video from You Tube, I can show it as a picture frame with the big play icon in the middle, rather than just a web-link? I can't work it out.
  
 What I'm doing just now is copying and pasting the web-page and that's all that appears.ie. it doesn't automatically open up as a nice picture like you guys can do.
 Thanks.


----------



## Spork67

After a journey of almost 16000k's (that's almost 10 000miles for the non-metric speakers here) Elise is in Tasmaina.
  
 Here she is, straight out of the box:
  
  
  
  
 No nasty marks on the front, maybe a little dust tat is only really visible with a camera flash.
  

  
  
 And in her new habitat. 

  
 We are both very happy together.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> And in her new habitat.
> 
> We are both very happy together.


 
  
 And? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 Usually the story continues more dramatically than that. Ok understand... you haven't finish the movie. Further down the track, Zorro will kill the villain, rescue the girl and ride off into the sunset.
  
 I've to say the Fostex looks really smart next to Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> HELP!
> 
> Could somebody advise me how, when I post a video from You Tube, I can show it as a picture frame with the big play icon in the middle, rather than just a web-link? I can't work it out.
> 
> ...


 
  
 For a pair of GEC 6AS7G, I'll show you how.
  
 Ok... 
  
 1st copy the video link.
  
 2nd click on the 'insert video' icon.
  
 3rd paste the link in it and submit.
  
 4th send the GEC to me.
  
 done.
  
 Like this.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> For a pair of GEC 6AS7G, I'll show you how.
> 
> Ok...
> 
> ...




  
  
  
 Awesome- thanks UT- I did it. Never thought of what those other icons did.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry no GEC to give you, but here's Joan A. instead.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Awesome- thanks UT- I did it. Never thought of what those other icons did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 This will do. Never heard this before but sounds good.
  
@mordy  agree that EL3N and Mullard 6080 sounds very good. It's on my wall of tubes. Photo taken a while back. It gets framed only when it meets the mark.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> This will do. Never heard this before but sounds good.
> 
> @mordy  agree that EL3N and Mullard 6080 sounds very good. It's on my wall of tubes. Photo taken a while back. It gets framed only when it meets the mark.


 
  
 I better dig out my Mullards again and have another listen. I have the CV 2984 version, maybe that makes a difference. They were very nice-just not so warm-but maybe Elise has burned in more now as I tried them very early on in my year of sonic discovery.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oag3I4VRXyM
> 
> @mordy  agree that EL3N and Mullard 6080 sounds very good. It's on my wall of tubes. Photo taken a while back. It gets framed only when it meets the mark.


 
  
_'This will do. Never heard this before but sounds good.'_


----------



## HOWIE13

Okay I agree, my Mullards do sound sweeter and warmer than I remember them, when coupled with EL3N's. Very clean and transparent. Big sound stage too- actually a very big sound stage.
  
 Handel's Recorder Sonatas never sounded sweeter. Very happy


----------



## mordy

Hi Spork67,
  
 What is left now (except for the aha moment of the first listening) is to put the dot over the i.
  
 Take a little Whiteout or a correction pen and apply a white spot at the beginning of the marks on the volume knob.
  
 Congrats!


----------



## richdytch

Oddly, I tried out the Mullard 6080/el3n combo yesterday and it is indeed nice. Good solid bass on those Mullards. But for my system, which loves a bit of warmth, I can't beat my benchmark el3n/Chatham 6as7g. Feels like it has much more dimension to it, and left the 6080/el3n sounding rather flat. Maybe I should persevere. 

6as7g with el3n, or 1944 Ken Rad vt231, when I fancy a change, are really the only combos I use these days.


----------



## richdytch

I find I can't beat el3n as a driver for classical music. Gives the music that 'there in the hall' feeling. At least with my system.

A few weeks ago, I decided that I felt too guilty running my tunes all day, together with 140wpc of quad power amp, while I work.So I purchased a daytime amp, a Topping tp60. Class D tripath thing, which I found for £65 on ebay. It's really quite stunning for the money, especially when it's been left on for a few days.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Plugged in my crack Mullard 6080 tubes with EL3N. In comparison to the Chatham 6080s the bass is much softer and s l o w e r, but the mid range is sweeter and the treble is better. These tubes used to be a favorite, but pale in comparison to the Tung Sol 7236 tubes that in my system have all the advantages of the other two combined.
  
 Why crack Mullard tubes? A while back Langrex had these on sale because when the metal band at the bottom of the tube was put in place, the crimping machine caused a hairline crack in the metal. You can barely see it, and it does not effect the performance of the tube.


----------



## mordy

OK rd - next will be revisiting the Chatham 6AS7G.....


----------



## richdytch

mordy said:


> OK rd - next will be revisiting the Chatham 6AS7G.....




I'll be interested to hear how you get on Mordy.


----------



## mordy

Hi richdytch,
  
 Putting in the Chathams is like giving the Elise a vitamin injection compared to the Mullards with the EL3N tubes. Agree completely with your assessment above.
  
 Now I have to go full circle and compare the Chathams directly to the TS 7236.....


----------



## mordy

Here again rd,
  
 The Tung Sol 7236 is more dynamic than the Chatham 6AS7G in my system - goes deeper with more impact, control and energy in the bass, and the mids and treble are very natural and sweet.
  
 It was a nice trip travelling to Mullard and Chatham, but feels good to be home again....


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Here again rd,
> 
> The Tung Sol 7236 is more dynamic than the Chatham 6AS7G in my system - goes deeper with more impact, control and energy in the bass, and the mids and treble are very natural and sweet.
> 
> It was a nice trip travelling to Mullard and Chatham, but feels good to be home again....


 
  
 I've always liked my SRH840 just for piano, and my friend Ian is coming for dinner next weekend and he can't wait to hear Elise. He's lucky enough to own a Bosendorfer Imperial and gets a free trip to Vienna every year to visit Bosendorfer's showroom- lucky guy.
  
 So I've been experimenting all day and have decided on T-S 7236's and Sylvania 6SN7WGT's.
  
 This combination is very realistic for the balance between the piano's treble detail and rich bass sonorities, together with most engaging, dynamic middle registers.
  
 Now I have to decide what to play for him to demonstrate Elise's capabilities. Maybe some Beethoven or Chopin, perhaps. I'll stop rambling now and get back to the music.


----------



## mordy

If anybody is interested, here is a pair of Visseux 6N7G:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NICE-RARE-PAIR-6N7G-VISSEAUX-6N7-CV1956-ECC31-FDD20-BLACK-CYLINDRICAL-100-FULL-/272355096681?hash=item3f69a0f869:g:9HoAAOSwawpXwZns


----------



## richdytch

mordy said:


> Hi richdytch,
> 
> Putting in the Chathams is like giving the Elise a vitamin injection compared to the Mullards with the EL3N tubes. Agree completely with your assessment above.
> 
> Now I have to go full circle and compare the Chathams directly to the TS 7236.....




Interesting. I'm now wondering whether I should acquire some 7236 tubes or not


----------



## richdytch

richdytch said:


> Interesting. I'm now wondering whether I should acquire some 7236 tubes or not




Well I just looked at the prices, which has settled that for me. No 7236 until maybe Christmas.


----------



## mordy

Hi rd,
  
 Just be patient, and a good deal will come up. This just in lol:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/31-TungSol-Type-7236-Dual-Triode-Power-Tubes-Computer-Rated-5998-/232063532582?hash=item3608107e26:g:fHUAAOSwxg5Xw4E9
  
 31 7236 tubes starting bid $10 (shipping US $35).
  
 BTW, a broken guide pin is not a problem. Usually you can see where the pin guide was by looking at the base - a little piece of colored tape will serve the same function.


----------



## richdytch

mordy said:


> Hi rd,
> 
> Just be patient, and a good deal will come up. This just in lol:
> 
> ...




Thanks Mordy, I'll keep an eye out.

On the Mullard 6080 tip, I do love pairing them with my Ken Rad VT231s whenever I fancy something dark, bass, warm and swampy. I personally think those particular 6080s partner a lot better with 6sn7 than they do with EL3N.

Mullard 6080/Ken Rad vt231 is a great dub reggae combination


----------



## connieflyer

I saw that and wondered if I should take out a second mortgage on the house as I am sure the price will probably be at least $50 with shipping of course!


----------



## lemting

I received today my ELN3 and adapter
 and I'm a little bit disappointed because i have hum on both L&R, even with volume down
 I'm alone or ELN3 are noisy?
 thank you


----------



## richdytch

lemting said:


> I received today my ELN3 and adapter
> and I'm a little bit disappointed because i have hum on both L&R, even with volume down
> I'm alone or ELN3 are noisy?
> thank you




hi lemting. I have experienced what I can only describe as variable amounts of hum with el3n in the Elise. So much so that I didn't use them at all for a long time. I had them down as accentuating a slight ground loop issue I have. But the other day I decided to give them another go and have been running them a lot. Either the hum has decreased or I have become less sensitive to it. In general it is much less than it was.

To be clear, this is using the Elise as a preamplifier, not with headphones. 

I know the el3n has a very long burn in period, maybe they calm down after a while.


----------



## HOWIE13

lemting said:


> I received today my ELN3 and adapter
> and I'm a little bit disappointed because i have hum on both L&R, even with volume down
> I'm alone or ELN3 are noisy?
> thank you


 
  
 I have 6 EL3N's and two have a quiet hum, not intruding on the music, with my HD 598/600/650. The other 4 don't hum.
  
 With my AKG 702/712 and HE400 I hear no hum from any of them.
  
 I suspect it depends not just on the individual tube but also the headphone you are using as to how loudly it reproduces the humming frequency and maybe also the other tubes you are using at the same time as powers/drivers.
  
 I would experiment a bit and also let them run awhile as it's my impression the ones that hum get quieter as they warm up.


----------



## lemting

thank you for reply
 I will wait few days to, maybe, hear a difference!


----------



## HOWIE13

lemting said:


> thank you for reply
> I will wait few days to, maybe, hear a difference!


 
  
 I think it's also been noted that checking the contacts in the adapter are well positioned can help too. It's quite an awkward adapter.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I have 6 EL3N's and two have a quiet hum, not intruding on the music, with my HD 598/600/650. The other 4 don't hum.
> 
> With my AKG 702/712 and HE400 I hear no hum from any of them.
> 
> ...


 
 I had the same problem with 2 of my 6 EL3Ns. I have no idea what I did, but after a while the problem went away. Good luck )))


----------



## UntilThen

I could hear the chatter of EL3Ns and the various power tubes in my sleep.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I could hear the chatter of EL3Ns and the various power tubes in my sleep.


 
 That was your Dobermans growling ))))


----------



## UntilThen

I'm not surprised you pick the EL3N and Chatham 6AS7G as one of your fav combo @richdytch.
  
 I was listening to EL3N and Mullard 6080 yesterday when I switch the power tubes to Chatham 6520 and I know I prefer the EL3N with 6520. Mullard 6080 has always sounded leaner, more defined to me whereas the Chatham 6520 is more flesh out, more saturated and more layers. However depending on personal preference, others might prefer the 6080 more.
  
 Much as I like the EL3N with 7236, I think there are times I prefer using the 6520 as power tubes. They are very good variations though. I could be happy just swapping them around.
  
@HOWIE13 it's a fine choice selecting Sylvania 6SN7wgt with 7236 to showcase Elise to your friend. There are many good sounding tubes used in Elise, each sounding different. When you've lived with these tubes long enough, you'll be able to recognize their tones and can pair them to give the synergy you're seeking.... you have to consider your source and headphones too.
  
 This is indeed one of my favorite. If you come and visit me, you'll find all these combinations framed and hung up on my walls. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
  
 ... not forgetting my benchmark EL3N and 5998.


----------



## UntilThen

lemting said:


> I received today my ELN3 and adapter
> and I'm a little bit disappointed because i have hum on both L&R, even with volume down
> I'm alone or ELN3 are noisy?
> thank you


 

 Hi lemting, I'd be disappointed too if my EL3Ns hums but they are totally silent. All 10 of them, whether in single or double adapters. I use 3 headphones, T1, modded HD650 and HE560 and all are totally hum free even when the tubes are new. I did notice a lot of noise coming from the tubes when powering up and down on Elise. This goes away after about 10 hours. It's just new tubes burning in.
  
 As some have pointed out, these adapters are a bit tricky. If the tubes are not seating properly, you will get hum. You may have to refresh the contacts by getting it out again. I've shown how to do this with a small flat screw driver in the past. Do a search on the other thread.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> *I find I can't beat el3n as a driver for classical music. Gives the music that 'there in the hall' feeling.* At least with my system.


 
 I agree with you Rich *totally* although I do love many other drivers too but the EL3Ns are special. I do like them a lot.
  
 However I chuckle because EL3Ns is a love hate experience here in Eliseland.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I'm not surprised you pick the EL3N and Chatham 6AS7G as one of your fav combo @richdytch.
> 
> I was listening to EL3N and Mullard 6080 yesterday when I switch the power tubes to Chatham 6520 and I know I prefer the EL3N with 6520. Mullard 6080 has always sounded leaner, more defined to me whereas the Chatham 6520 is more flesh out, more saturated and more layers. However depending on personal preference, others might prefer the 6080 more.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I believe you have indeed framed them all- you take excellent photographs- mine are rubbish..
 Would love to visit you some day though just now with the wife recovering ever so slowly from a bunion operation and me with my sciatica I doubt we could get up the steps into a plane.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I believe you have indeed framed them all- you take excellent photographs- mine are rubbish..
> Would love to visit you some day though just now with the wife recovering ever so slowly from a bunion operation and me with my sciatica I doubt we could get up the steps into a plane.


 

 You're welcome to visit me anytime Howie. I say that to hypnos1, pctazhp, connieflyer too.
  
 Not sure when I get to visit Scotland. I do have a close friend living in England, Dover.
  
 White cliffs of Dover


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I agree with you Rich *totally* although I do love many other drivers too but the EL3Ns are special. I do like them a lot.
> 
> However I chuckle because EL3Ns is a love hate experience here in Eliseland.


 
  
 I've used the EL3N's as powers but they were a bit low in volume compared to the rest. I'm waiting for the double adapter to try 4 as powers.
  
 As drivers they give a big sound stage and the sense of the occasion as Rich has pointed out. Sometimes I find they are a bit warm with some recordings but with others they are terrific.
 I like the way the treble comes through the warmth of the mids and bass when required eg. with Baroque Music.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> You're welcome to visit me anytime Howie. I say that to hypnos1, pctazhp, connieflyer too.
> 
> Not sure when I get to visit Scotland. I do have a close friend living in England, Dover.
> 
> White cliffs of Dover


 
  
 Thanks UT. Hope to make it and you would love using your camera in Scotland as well as drinking my whisky.
  
 That picture deserves a song:


----------



## Spork67

If I pause the music and crank the volume well past 12 o-clock I get quite a loud hum.
 I'm hoping thats just new tubes, or perhaps low z (25 ohm) HPs and not a permanent feature.
 Having said that, there is no hum below 12 - 1 o'clock, and I generally listen between 9 - 10 o'clock.
  
 Heck, maybe it's a good excuse to try making an "audiophille" shielded power cable.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> If I pause the music and crank the volume well past 12 o-clock I get quite a loud hum.
> I'm hoping thats just new tubes, or perhaps low z (25 ohm) HPs and not a permanent feature.
> Having said that, there is no hum below 12 - 1 o'clock, and I generally listen between 9 - 10 o'clock.
> 
> Heck, maybe it's a good excuse to try making an "audiophille" shielded power cable.


 
  
 I think some people have had hums related to earthing issues or it could be tube related, or both.. Does it occur with all tubes?
  
 Elise is meant to be quiet at all volume positions and mine is alright. Worth checking other equipment, earths, Elise's position in the house, turn off fridge/ freezer (temporarily 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Hums are a pain, BUT the good news is you will be very unlikely to ever get near 1 o'clock. Even with low recorded levels in Classical and liking my music loud with fairly old ears, I have never needed to be more than 11 o'clock.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> *If I pause the music and crank the volume well past 12 o-clock I get quite a loud hum.*
> I'm hoping thats just new tubes, or perhaps low z (25 ohm) HPs and not a permanent feature.
> Having said that, there is no hum below 12 - 1 o'clock, and I generally listen between 9 - 10 o'clock.
> 
> Heck, maybe it's a good excuse to try making an "audiophille" shielded power cable.


 
 Quite unusual. You pause the music. I do that and turn my volume to max and it's dead silent. Are you using a 3 pin power plug with earth? 
  
 Try another headphone although with music paused it's unlikely to be headphone.
  
 It's true you will unlikely go past 1pm. I have EL3N and 5998 on now and I can't get past 11am.
  
 I get this warning.


----------



## Spork67

Yes, using a 3 pin plug.
 Having said that - it's connected to a power board with a lot of other stuff also connected - PC, monitor etc.
 By the weekend everything should have had sufficient burn in to rule out new tubes settling in.
 I'll try some troubleshooting then - swatp tubes around, try different power outlet, maybe different power cord etc.
  
 I have heard of people removing the earth lead to eliminate hum, and I know some of my old Hifi gear had only 2 pin plugs.
 Is this safe to do? Is it likely to help?


----------



## connieflyer

I would not recommend doing this, it was designed with the intent of picking up ground this way. Try swapping tubes, power outlet first


----------



## UntilThen

You should be using a 3 pin power cord. It needs to be grounded. A good PC power cord will do or you can buy a dedicated one.


----------



## Spork67

Thanks.
 Thanks CF. Will swap tubes one side to the other - but hum is in both channels I think.
  
  @UntilThen I'm Using a PC power cord. Will see if I can find a spare to test. I need another one anyway when I get the Stax amp back, this is the one I was going to use for that.


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> I thought the ETHER C's were fantastic and one fellow had a beefy portable amp that could rive them, said they were his work rig, He had all hi-res files on his DAP, it did sound amazing, for a large and "portable impractical"...portable rig.
> 
> There was also a pair of Audio Zenith PMx2 http://www.audiozenith.com/ that I thought were absolutely fantastic, even if in the 'bass polite' category. They were so good that they gave concern to the fellows who had spent far more on their headphones (think these cost $1400.00, so, come in at $300.00 less t
> 
> This is post that I was hoping to get a reply. ETHER Cs are $1500.00 US. 1900 CDN.. Please get your facts strsight., or tell me ehere I can get Ethers for $1100.00.


----------



## aqsw

aqsw said:


> jazzvinyl said:
> 
> 
> > I thought the ETHER C's were fantastic and one fellow had a beefy portable amp that could rive them, said they were his work rig, He had all hi-res files on his DAP, it did sound amazing, for a large and "portable impractical"...portable rig.
> ...


----------



## aqsw

Have not been around for awhile, The Elise is still rocking.

I did buy a Fiio x7 and B&O H8 for just listening.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Yes, using a 3 pin plug.
> Having said that - it's connected to a power board with a lot of other stuff also connected - PC, monitor etc.
> By the weekend everything should have had sufficient burn in to rule out new tubes settling in.
> I'll try some troubleshooting then - swatp tubes around, try different power outlet, maybe different power cord etc.
> ...


 

 My Elise is also connected to a multiple power boards in my study. One iMac, one PC, cable modem router, printer, NAD d1050, Elise, Darkvoice 336se, Aune T1, lava lamp, Bose Companion 5 speakers, Denon turntable, Samsung Galaxy s7 edge charger. 
  
 My setup is hum free or should that be humphrey. Volume to the max with no music playing dead silent. All the tubes with or without adapters no noise or hum. I don't use fancy power cords or interconnects.


----------



## aqsw

aqsw said:


> Have not been around for awhile, The Elise is still rocking.
> 
> I did buy a Fiio x7 and B&O H8 for just listening.



I have never had noise cancelling before. What a difference on a plane,


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I have never had noise cancelling before. What a difference on a plane,


 

 Yup the PSB M4U2 with noise cancelling is great for that. Except when the announcement 'May Day May Day' comes on, you won't hear it.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> My Elise is also connected to a multiple power boards in my study. One iMac, one PC, cable modem router, printer, NAD d1050, Elise, Darkvoice 336se, Aune T1, lava lamp, Bose Companion 5 speakers, Denon turntable, Samsung Galaxy s7 edge charger.
> 
> My setup is hum free or should that be humphrey. Volume to the max with no music playing dead silent. All the tubes with or without adapters no noise or hum. I don't use fancy power cords or interconnects.




I hate you UT (just kidding)
You are truly the lucky one. Others like myself are not that lucky


----------



## Spork67

I was hoping for Humphrey too.
 Both my SS amps are dead silent when using the same power-board, but one (now in my son's possession) got noisy if too far back on the desk placing it near the modem.
 I'll try moving some stuff, including Elise, her tubes, leads, and the power supply around.
 Hope i can sort it - even though it probably won't impact on my normal listening, I'll still know it's there when it ought not be, which could impact on my enjoyment.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> I was hoping for Humphrey too.
> Both my SS amps are dead silent when using the same power-board, but one (now in my son's possession) got noisy if too far back on the desk placing it near the modem.
> I'll try moving some stuff, including Elise, her tubes, leads, and the power supply around.
> Hope i can sort it - even though it probably won't impact on my normal listening, I'll still know it's there when it ought not be, which could impact on my enjoyment.


 
  
 Sorry if you have already told us this but what tubes are you using, just out of interest?
  
 Also, I've been fooled into believing that what appears to be a UK 3 pin plug on a picture on eBay or some other such website turns out not to be. Either the earth isn't connected inside a charger or the earth pin is made of plastic.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Sorry if you have already told us this but what tubes are you using, just out of interest?
> 
> Also, I've been fooled into believing that what appears to be a UK 3 pin plug on a picture on eBay or some other such website turns out not to be. Either the earth isn't connected inside a charger or the earth pin is made of plastic.


 

 Dummy earth?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 He's using the stock tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

Here's one of my favourite songs and singers:


----------



## UntilThen

It's hard for me to understand why some are plague by hum while other don't. 
  
@Lord Raven has a pair of Visseaux 6N7G and adapters that hums in his Elise. He brought those tubes and adapters to visit me. We try it in my Elise and setup and it's hum free.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Dummy earth?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hmmmm (sorry), wonder if one of the tubes is dodgy.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> It's hard for me to understand why some are plague by hum while other don't.
> 
> @Lord Raven has a pair of Visseaux 6N7G and adapters that hums in his Elise. He brought those tubes and adapters to visit me. We try it in my Elise and setup and it's hum free.


 
  
 I think much of this problem relates to our mains networks. I'm hum free usually too.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Here's one of my favourite songs and singers:





 Wow this is very good on the 6 pack and modded HD650 now.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Wow this is very good on the 6 pack and modded HD650 now.


 
  
 I can't wait to receive my double adapters to try the 6 pack, Should be here this week sometime.


----------



## UntilThen

My Cetron 7236 still hasn't arrived. Tracking show's it's in Sydney. You will love 6 pack with Handel and Mahler. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Do recommend more of those music. Loving it.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> My Cetron 7236 still hasn't arrived. Tracking show's it's in Sydney. You will love 6 pack with Handel and Mahler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I haven't even started to listen to the big stuff yet. I would imagine the 6 pack will be hard to beat for Mahler.
  
 Talking of Mahler:


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I haven't even started to listen to the big stuff yet. I would imagine the 6 pack will be hard to beat for Mahler.
> 
> Talking of Mahler:


 
  
 This is moving stuff. Love Mahler 5. We do have some common interest.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> This is moving stuff. Love Mahler 5. We do have some common interest.


 
  
 You may even have Scottish ancestry.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> You may even have Scottish ancestry.


 

 Yeah ri-ght


----------



## Spork67

Hum doesn't seem to have reduced with burn in (although only about 16 hours so far).
 It is same in both channels, so I doubt it would be a dicky tube.
 UT is correct - I'm using the standard tubes.
 Really hope I can sort it - I checked more closely and it's audible (to me) from about 11 o-clock. 
 That means someone with good hearing (I have a touch of industrial deafness) would possibly hear it at the higher end of listening volumes.
  
 Hopefully something little like a different power cord, or using a different wall socket (maybe one on a different circuit) will eliminate or at least reduce it.
 I would really like to have the silence at any level I expected.


----------



## UntilThen

Do you have a high impedance dynamic headphone to try out? Like a HD600 / 650 or DT880, 770, 990.
  
 Could be the HE-400i at 25ohms. I mean the Fostex.


----------



## tjw321

spork67 said:


> Hum doesn't seem to have reduced with burn in (although only about 16 hours so far).
> It is same in both channels, so I doubt it would be a dicky tube.
> UT is correct - I'm using the standard tubes.
> Really hope I can sort it - I checked more closely and it's audible (to me) from about 11 o-clock.
> ...


 
 I wasn't Humphrey when I first got my Elise. I spent a few days trying different placements, power leads, tubes etc., and the degree of hum varied but never disappeared. I gave up and just listened to it for a while - the hum wasn't intrusive; just a little irritating between songs.
 Suddenly I realised the hum had gone. I still don't know why. My first thought was tube burn-in, but there was still no hum after swapping tubes. I can't think of any way amp burn-in would clear it up so my best guess is just that the contacts cleaned themselves up somehow.
 Fingers crossed that your hum is of the ephemeral variety, like mine.


----------



## UntilThen

I have on 6xEL3N now. If any combinations will hum this will be it. Can never really tell with these adapters. However I'm getting silence with no music playing. Only at max volume did I hear a slight buzzing. 
  
 That's an annoyance for me. It used to be totally silent even at max volume with no music playing. Guess I can live with that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now to try out 'Two Steps From Hell' courtesy of @connieflyer .


----------



## geetarman49

pctazhp said:


> Candidly. It doesn't look acceptable to me.


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Hard to tell from the photo because the camera can pick up dust and marks which the eye doesn't notice. I mean, those white marks on the top I take it is dust?


 
  
  


hypnos1 said:


> As H13 says, difficult to tell exactly from your photo, alas...but I must admit your original photo certainly did seem to indicate a less-than-perfect finish, and one that I'm quite sure FA would never have shipped thus. One can only surmise that _*something*_ happened while all that time in Customs....difficult one to be sure, but will be interesting to see what FA have to say LOL...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> @geetarman49
> 
> Maybe if you could move the big box and post some closer photos from more angles it would be easier to advise. That one photo from the side is difficult to assess.
> 
> To me the top looks fine.


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> @geetarman49 looking at your photo I can tell you've clean the front facia till it's bone dry. You don't want to do that because that surface will look powdery white when you do that. Use a damp cloth and I mean quite damp but not dripping with water. Swap it a few times over the surface till moisture covers over the entire surface. Then let any residue moisture dry by itself.
> 
> Here I have 3 photos which I just did. The first I use a damp cloth but quite dry. You can see residue white powdery marks which the camera will pic up.
> 
> ...


 
  
 again, i thank all for comments/suggestions  ---- too many to reply to individually so i'm lumping it all.
 i went at it again, UT style, & out of direct sunlight, the front panel now looks much, much better ... no time to take pictures tonite.
  
 if i look really closely i can still make out what appears to be printed characters on the top edge of the faceplate -- but it's so faint that it's almost picayune to even mention it - but curious nonetheless.
  
 so, for resolving issues i would rate members of this thread @ 100%, fa -- not so much.
  
 'nite all -- time for some zzzzzs.


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> again, i thank all for comments/suggestions  ---- too many to reply to individually so i'm lumping it all.
> i went at it again, UT style, & out of direct sunlight, the front panel now looks much, much better ... no time to take pictures tonite.
> 
> if i look really closely i can still make out what appears to be printed characters on the top edge of the faceplate -- but it's so faint that it's almost picayune to even mention it - but curious nonetheless.
> ...


 
 I'll be taking out a patent for my cleaning style soon.
  
 but but how does it sound?


----------



## HOWIE13

geetarman49 said:


> again, i thank all for comments/suggestions  ---- too many to reply to individually so i'm lumping it all.
> i went at it again, UT style, & out of direct sunlight, the front panel now looks much, much better ... no time to take pictures tonite.
> 
> if i look really closely i can still make out what appears to be printed characters on the top edge of the faceplate -- but it's so faint that it's almost picayune to even mention it - but curious nonetheless.
> ...


 
  
 Well done, now you will see the dust even more clearly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You have also added a new word to my vocabulary. Cheers


----------



## Jozurr

I wish there was a list or summary of good tubes (both driver and power) for the Elise with some impressions summarised, so I could buy them in one go and try for myself. Something like the 6SN7 reference thread. (however that does not includes tubes very commonly  used on elise like C3G, El3N, ECC31 etc).


----------



## Spork67

jozurr said:


> I wish there was a list or summary of good tubes (both driver and power) for the Elise with some impressions summarised, so I could buy them in one go and try for myself. Something like the 6SN7 reference thread. (however that does not includes tubes very commonly  used on elise like C3G, El3N, ECC31 etc).


 
 Just use the (advanced) search function - search by username "Until then", forum "amps - full size" and flick through the posts. Heaps of info on different tubs and combinations from someone who seems to have tried them all.


----------



## UntilThen

jozurr said:


> I wish there was a list or summary of good tubes (both driver and power) for the Elise with some impressions summarised, so I could buy them in one go and try for myself. Something like the 6SN7 reference thread. (however that does not includes tubes very commonly  used on elise like C3G, El3N, ECC31 etc).


 

 This is my compilation. Hope it helps. Impressions are scattered all over the other thread. 
  
post #9291


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Well done, now you will see the dust even more clearly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry. Wrong person ((


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> I'm not surprised you pick the EL3N and Chatham 6AS7G as one of your fav combo @richdytch
> .
> 
> I was listening to EL3N and Mullard 6080 yesterday when I switch the power tubes to Chatham 6520 and I know I prefer the EL3N with 6520. Mullard 6080 has always sounded leaner, more defined to me whereas the Chatham 6520 is more flesh out, more saturated and more layers. However depending on personal preference, others might prefer the 6080 more.
> ...




Thanks UT, I'll check out the 6520. Every time I come back to this thread there's so much more information...


----------



## mordy

Hi Spork67,
  
 Sometimes I use a tube set that is humphrey, but most of the times there is some hum at too loud listening levels to be practical. It does not bother me, since I cannot hear it when I listen. I am sure that there is a ground loop or two somewhere, but I have so many wires and cables in my listening room/office that I don't have the patience to go through them all.
  
 My room is a veritable snake pit of wires accumulated over the years, and I am just happy that I can listen unencumbered by hum. In the beginning of owning the Elise there were more problems, but they went away, something that has been evidenced by others as well.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi Spork67,
> 
> Sometimes I use a tube set that is humphrey, but most of the times there is some hum at too loud listening levels to be practical. It does not bother me, since I cannot hear it when I listen. I am sure that there is a ground loop or two somewhere, but I have so many wires and cables in my listening room/office that I don't have the patience to go through them all.
> 
> My room is a veritable snake pit of wires accumulated over the years, and I am just happy that I can listen unencumbered by hum. In the beginning of owning the Elise there were more problems, but they went away, something that has been evidenced by others as well.


 
 You mention "snake pit"??? Go Arizona Diamondbacks


----------



## mordy

More like this:
  





  
 I think that you can appreciate what it means to get down on all four and start sorting out 25 years of accumulated wires and cables.....just joined the septuagenarian club.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Thanks UT, I'll check out the 6520. Every time I come back to this thread there's so much more information...


 

 There are supposed to be 2 types of 6520. There's one with dimple face which is supposed to be identical to Tung Sol 5998. I've never seen this before but have the 5998. The other 6520 is similar to Chatham 6AS7G which you already have.
  
 However tubes are tubes. Both my Chatham 6520 and 6AS7G does not sound alike. Chatham 6AS7G sounds brighter and the 6520 less so. I've since sold off my Chatham 6AS7G and kept the 6520.
  
 I'm of the opinion that these power tubes are interesting in Elise:-
 Tung Sol 5998
 Tung Sol 7236
 Chatham 6AS7G or 6520
 Mullard 6080
  
 These are getting rare but still available occasionally. These are quite exotic. Again very rare and expensive when available.
 GEC 6AS7G
 Bendix 6080WB graphite plates
 GEC 6080WB
  
 I've not heard the Bendix or GEC 6080WB but of the 6080 that I have, I prefer the 6AS7G over the 6080. A sentiment shared here. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/22/229019.html  
  
 So perhaps just get a cheap pair of GE 6080. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 An interesting take on why people buy near extinct vintage and  super expensive tubes. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/22/229046.html


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> More like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Appreciated that feat *20* years ago, m...and I'm still behind you lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## mordy

Rather than a cheap GE 6080 I would recommend the equally inexpensive 6AS7GA tubes - any brand (Sylvania, GE, RCA, rebranded HP). Not in the league of the Tung Sol 7236,5998 or 6520, but quite good.
  
 BTW, only the Tung Sol 7236 belongs on this list - have not seen glowing reviews of the Sylvania 7236.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> There are supposed to be 2 types of 6520. There's one with dimple face which is supposed to be identical to Tung Sol 5998. I've never seen this before but have the 5998. The other 6520 is similar to Chatham 6AS7G which you already have.
> 
> However tubes are tubes. Both my Chatham 6520 and 6AS7G does not sound alike. Chatham 6AS7G sounds brighter and the 6520 less so. I've since sold off my Chatham 6AS7G and kept the 6520.
> 
> ...


 
 There must be _some_ truth there UT...but if this is a sneaky way of trying to get me to send you my GEC/Osrams for Christmas..._*forget it, lol!!*_...they are now permanently glued to the amp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!!...


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Rather than a cheap GE 6080 I would recommend the equally inexpensive 6AS7GA tubes - any brand (Sylvania, GE, RCA, rebranded HP). Not in the league of the Tung Sol 7236,5998 or 6520, but quite good.
> 
> BTW, only the Tung Sol 7236 belongs on this list - have not seen glowing reviews of the Sylvania 7236.


 
 Correct I'm of the opinion that Sylvania 7236 are different from Tung Sol or Cetron 7236 but I cannot be sure until I've heard it or someone verify it. 
  
 Arnold will let us know when his Cetron 7236 arrives.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> There must be _some_ truth there UT...but if this is a sneaky way of trying to get me to send you my GEC/Osrams for Christmas..._*forget it, lol!!*_...they are now permanently glued to the amp!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's my contribution to bring down the price of super expensive tubes and I'm planning ahead for Christmas. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I like the descriptions in the link but I cannot agree with current production tubes being just as good as the vintage ones. Can't believe it's only $50 for a pair of Bendix 6080WB in 2010.


----------



## mordy

And $100 for a pair of GEC A1834.....


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Rather than a cheap GE 6080 I would recommend the equally inexpensive 6AS7GA tubes - any brand (Sylvania, GE, RCA, rebranded HP). Not in the league of the Tung Sol 7236,5998 or 6520, but quite good.
> 
> BTW, only the Tung Sol 7236 belongs on this list - have not seen glowing reviews of the Sylvania 7236.


 
  
 I found the Sylvania had a rather annoying peaky treble which could be fatiguing. nice mids and decent bass. My TS 7236 needed burn in and now sounds much sweeter. I think the TS 6080 is a very good tube too.


----------



## UntilThen

There you go. Another pair of vintage 1960s Chatham 6080WB graphite plates for only AUD$362. Such a stunning immaculate matched pair.
  
 https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/448738892/stunning-matched-pair-chatham-6080wb?ref=related-3


----------



## UntilThen

May I suggest these gorgeous babies instead. It won't send your bank manager into a spin and you'll be helping the Belgium economy.
  

  
 ... and they are perfect for Christmas.


----------



## UntilThen

Ha it's total silence again with 6 pack and no music playing at max volume. This amp never fail to surprise me. All it takes is a few hours of settling in, playing music.


----------



## connieflyer

I will have to try the 6 pack again, if still noisy will have to buy another adapter.  loved the huge sound stage with these


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I will have to try the 6 pack again, if still noisy will have to buy another adapter.  loved the huge sound stage with these


 

 It's huge. Now play me one of those huge soundtracks.


----------



## connieflyer

Since I am playing and buying more dsd files, I can play them thru the main system with the Sony music player but not thru the Elise from the pc.  So after much research decided to trade in my current dac for the new PS Audio dsd dac.  http://www.psaudio.com/nuwave-dsd/ It also comes with a 30 day in home trial so I can compare it to the old one., before sending it in to them, should be here Thursday, looking forward to it.  The post that sealed the deal for me was this...The NuWave DSD sounds better to me overall. It's very dynamic and punchy with good detail and fully extended. It's not quite a smooth as the Ayre QB-9 DSD but for the price I am very impressed. The old NuWave DAC was excellent too but I find the NuWave DSD to be a bit better. He sold the Ayre and pocketed the money..


----------



## UntilThen

You're on a roll. How much is this NuWave DSD.
  
 .... and what are you going to do with the Sony?
  
 You bought Ayre QB-9 DSD as well? How many DACs do you have now?


----------



## connieflyer

They knocked off almost $400 brought price with shipping done to $900.  Probably keep both when used with some of the dsd thru main system it has a very clear and powerful bass without the distortion as in some of my other music, the subwoofer is very satisfying wall shaking chest thumping and had to go around and find some small items that were vibrating and had to be taped down!


----------



## UntilThen

What about the Ayre QB-9 DSD?


----------



## connieflyer

The one he had was $2400 and that is too rich for my blood, just thinking of that money makes me have a need to calm down


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> The one he had was $2400 and that is too rich for my blood, just thinking of that money makes me have a need to calm down


 








  
 Now I regret not getting the Fresh Aire LPs from you. Sounds great.


----------



## connieflyer

Or with a little sax....


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> Now I regret not getting the Fresh Aire LPs from you. Sounds great.


 

 Funny you should say that, they are still boxed up, very tightly with the first thru seven lp's and as many other albums as I could squeeze in the postal box.  I can get a price on shipping if you want...


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Funny you should say that, they are still boxed up, very tightly with the first thru seven lp's and as many other albums as I could squeeze in the postal box.  I can get a price on shipping if you want...


 

 YES !!! You deserve a hug. 
  
 Yup get a shipping price for me and we're on our way.


----------



## connieflyer

Will do


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Will do


 

 Meanwhile I will listen to Mannheim Steamroller on Youtube.


----------



## UntilThen

Listening to this now.


----------



## UntilThen

These recordings are so clear.


----------



## geetarman49

listened to some agnes obel this afternoon as i continue the break-in using jan philips 6sn7wgta driving rca 6as7g.
 sound is pleasant if unexceptional -- quite balanced thru the freq spectrum but not truly resolving of inner details --- captures the envelope of the waveform while mildly softening the transients (some of this may be attributable to the interconnect).  like table wine, this is a combo to pull out when the company is more interested in talking rather than listening to fine musik.
  
 there is some noise with the vol at 0  --- i'll see whether or not i can rectify this by swapping interconnects (using an older pr of vdh integration hybrid atm).
  
 & remember when i said the finish looks fine now?   in the direct light of the afternoon sun, the uneven finish is but all too apparent:
  
 sunlit view:

  
 from the other side:

  
 no amt of wiping, scrubbing with damp, without damp microfibre is changing this.   i told lukasz everything is fine --- spoke too soon & that's on me.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey Geetarman glad you have the amp. Sounds like you need a power tube upgrade. Your 6SN7 driver tubes are good but the 6AS7 tubes can be really 'hit & miss'. Maybe post your sonic preferences and someone here will recommend some good ones to suit you. I'd say the Elise takes around 200 hrs. to burn in properly - but I've yet to ever notice any difference burn in makes for tubes.


----------



## lemting

connieflyer said:


> I will have to try the 6 pack again, if still noisy will have to buy another adapter.  loved the huge sound stage with these


 

 it's not so easy to find ELN3 to 6SN7 adapters
 do you have somes links?


----------



## UntilThen

lemting said:


> it's not so easy to find ELN3 to 6SN7 adapters
> do you have somes links?


 

 Single
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
  
 Double
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-EL3N-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/191769639044?hash=item2ca65c7884:g:-W4AAOSw5IJWggQB


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hey Geetarman glad you have the amp. Sounds like you need a power tube upgrade. Your 6SN7 driver tubes are good but the 6AS7 tubes can be really 'hit & miss'. Maybe post your sonic preferences and someone here will recommend some good ones to suit you. I'd say the Elise takes around 200 hrs. to burn in properly - but I've yet to ever notice any difference burn in makes for tubes.


 
 Generally I would agree but the EL3N's change to my ears as do the 7236, quite markedly so.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Generally I would agree but the EL3N's change to my ears as do the 7236, quite markedly so.


 

 The wise man has spoken.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> The wise man has spoken.


 
  


untilthen said:


> The wise man has spoken.


 
  Thank you, Sir.


----------



## geetarman49

decentlevi said:


> Hey Geetarman glad you have the amp. Sounds like you need a power tube upgrade. Your 6SN7 driver tubes are good but the 6AS7 tubes can be really 'hit & miss'. Maybe post your sonic preferences and someone here will recommend some good ones to suit you. I'd say the Elise takes around 200 hrs. to burn in properly - but I've yet to ever notice any difference burn in makes for tubes.


 
  
 i'm switching to el3n and chatham 6as7g, but i might try the mullard 6080 first.
  
 fwiw, i'm using digital out from a pioneer multi-format player into grace m920 dac and then out to elise driving t1.  once i clear some space on my stand, i'll switch the source to win10 laptop running musicbee.


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> i'm switching to el3n and chatham 6as7g, but i might try the mullard 6080 first.
> 
> fwiw, i'm using digital out from a pioneer multi-format player into grace m920 dac and then out to elise driving t1.  once i clear some space on my stand, i'll switch the source to win10 laptop running musicbee.


 

 Is that the famed Chatham 6AS7G you bought from me or LR? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 T1 + Elise with EL3N and Chatham 6as7g sounds good. There are many here who like this combination.


----------



## DecentLevi

I was thinking to upgrade my HD-650 cable and this silver plated one looks like a good deal. What's your take, @UntilThen? You've done it too IIRC. And does it make any auditory difference?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5mm-OCC-Silver-Plated-Cable-For-Sennheiser-HD650-HD600-HD580-Headphone-/251493925186


----------



## DecentLevi

Also I didn't mean to say I don't believe in tube burn-in, just that so far I've yet to encounter any differences from it with my existing tubes


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> I was thinking to upgrade my HD-650 cable and this silver plated one looks like a good deal. What's your take, @UntilThen? You've done it too IIRC. And does it make any auditory difference?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5mm-OCC-Silver-Plated-Cable-For-Sennheiser-HD650-HD600-HD580-Headphone-/251493925186


 

 I did not upgrade my HD650 cable. It's my T1 that has a 7N OCC cable.
  
 With the mod on HD650, I don't think I need the silver cable, which will only make it brighter. Heard a HD650 at the meet with no mod but with a silver cable. It did sound brighter.
  
 Perhaps a better cable such as this
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Sennheiser-Headphone-Cable-HD525-HD535-HD565-HD600-HD650-Canare-Cardas-/172235861446?hash=item281a0eadc6:g:uN4AAOSwqfNXoPv5
  
 I like the solid 1/4 inch jack.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Also I didn't mean to say I don't believe in tube burn-in, just that so far I've yet to encounter any differences from it with my existing tubes


 

 There will be a difference with burn in (tubes) if you spend enough time.


----------



## Spork67

I've got to ask the question:
 Most everyone on this thread agrees that the sound from tubes improves with age, and the burn in can take quite some time depending on the tubes in question.
 Most everyone on this thread seems to chop and change tubes with some regularity.
 So, the question is, has ANYONE given the stock tubes a good run and enough time to burn in properly?
 'cos they sound pretty damn good to me.


----------



## connieflyer

Hello lemting the adapters I use are these.....
  
 Did not see UT's earlier post so disregard this post, don' t see a way to delete posts


----------



## lemting

connieflyer said:


> Hello lemting the adapters I use are these.....
> 
> Did not see UT's earlier post so disregard this post, don' t see a way to delete posts


 

 i have these one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
  
 i just wanted to know if there is an other seller with differents quality than this one


----------



## connieflyer

This seller is quite good.  I have several adapters from them and have had little problems if at all.


----------



## HOWIE13

lemting said:


> i have these one
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
> 
> i just wanted to know if there is an other seller with differents quality than this one


 
  


lemting said:


> i have these one
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
> 
> i just wanted to know if there is an other seller with differents quality than this one


 
  
 Excellent seller and I've had no problems with their adapters over 2-3 years.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I've got to ask the question:
> Most everyone on this thread agrees that the sound from tubes improves with age, and the burn in can take quite some time depending on the tubes in question.
> Most everyone on this thread seems to chop and change tubes with some regularity.
> So, the question is, has ANYONE given the stock tubes a good run and enough time to burn in properly?
> 'cos they sound pretty damn good to me.


 

 Wouldn't want to spoil the fun for you then. I have enough hours on stock tubes initially to get Elise to burn in. They are not bad but clearly not in the same league as the better tubes.
  
 A pair of Raytheon 7N7 and Chatham 6as7g will be much better than those.


----------



## UntilThen

Lord of the Rings 
  
 
  
 Oh wow it's 1st of Sept already.


----------



## pctazhp

spork67 said:


> I've got to ask the question:
> Most everyone on this thread agrees that the sound from tubes improves with age, and the burn in can take quite some time depending on the tubes in question.
> Most everyone on this thread seems to chop and change tubes with some regularity.
> So, the question is, has ANYONE given the stock tubes a good run and enough time to burn in properly?
> 'cos they sound pretty damn good to me.


 
 Very good question. I did run them for a while when I first got my Elise but honestly can't say they were fully burned in. Being an obsessive/compulsive I already had bought a collection of tubes by the time the Elise arrived.
  
 In my opinion the Elise performs above its pay grade with a number of different combinations. Owning the Elise is a blessing. Tube rolling with it is a nice, but perhaps, an unnecessary luxury 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Edit:  I guess I should also say that FA probably tries to maintain a certain price point and knows that it is not providing the best tubes it could. So clearly in my experience its performance can be pushed considerably higher with non-stock tubes. But I suggest going slow at first. Good luck)))


----------



## mordy

Hi lemting,
  
 There is another seller that may be cheaper - *Suzier. DO NOT BUY EL3N ADAPTERS FROM THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
  
 After using the three Suzier adapters for 3-4 weeks something happened inside the adapters, causing three of my EL3N tubes to short out. When I tried to figure what was wrong, putting these tubes into another tube amp that I have, it got fried.
  
 If it wasn't for the protective circuitry in the Elise I would have fried that amp too. Luckily, it shut off, and after some wait it came back to life again.
  
 I lost three EL3N new tubes and an amp, altogether costing a couple of hundred $, but the only thing they did for me was to refund my purchase cost of the three adapters.


----------



## pctazhp

WOW. What a difference a day makes!!!
  
 For the first time since I got my HD800S many moons ago, I tried them today without wearing my computer glasses. Major improvement!!! But I was resigned to future serious listening with my eyes shut to avoid eye strain and getting absolutely nothing done ((((
  
 Then I discovered that if I put the headphones on first, my computer glasses open nicely without problem and fit fine over the headphones.
  
 Let the sun shine in and the music flow


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> I've got to ask the question:
> Most everyone on this thread agrees that the sound from tubes improves with age, and the burn in can take quite some time depending on the tubes in question.
> Most everyone on this thread seems to chop and change tubes with some regularity.
> So, the question is, has ANYONE given the stock tubes a good run and enough time to burn in properly?
> 'cos they sound pretty damn good to me.


 
  
 I thought the stock tubes were good sounding too, and if anyone didn't want to roll they would still be very happy with an excellent sounding amp at an exceptionably reasonable price.
  
 I usually know after 12 hours of play if a tube is changing its sound. If it is I continue using it as it 'burns in'. Mostly they settle to a consistent sound after 24 hours or so BUT there are exceptions and some take much longer- EL3N and 7236 tubes, for instance.
  
 The reason for the variation may be also to do with the fact that most of the tubes I buy are not unused anyway and are therefore already burned in by prior use, and even those advertised as NIB/NOS  are possibly not unused.
  
 Testing may not help either as a two hundred hour used tube and unused tube can both give levels of 85-100% for emission and transductance. There's too much overlap in readings.
  
 For myself, I already owned the original USA version of the 6SN7GTB T-S driver and like it's sound. The Russian version was a bit warmer in sound quality and didn't change after about 30 hours of Elise burn in. It's pleasant but too polite for my ears. The 6AS7 power tubes are also warm and  I thought a bit loose in the bass for me on first use during Elise's 30 hour burn in. They did change and the bass got tighter, but like others, waiting 6 weeks for Elise to arrive resulted in me purchasing tubes that I was impatient to roll. 
  
 I may go back and listen to the stock powers again- some have been pleasantly surprised when they have gone back to the stock tubes after a period of rolling.


----------



## tjw321

The price of Beyerdynamic T1s briefly dropped below £500 on Amazon UK so I'm finally going to be joining the club. Just have to wait for the delivery. Why did I let my Prime membership lapse...


----------



## mordy

Hi UT and JV,
  
 Finally took the leap and hooked up a turntable I had lying around for years - a Technics SL-B2. Ordered a new belt and stylus and got it up and running. I must say that it sounds very nice with the Elise as a preamp. There is a quality to the vinyl sound that is not there compared to the CD of the same recording.
  
 I also have two higher end turntables that I acquired. One is a Thorens TD 115 MKII with a Grado 3 cartridge - going to see if I can it running.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi lemting,
> 
> There is another seller that may be cheaper - *Suzier. DO NOT BUY EL3N ADAPTERS FROM THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> ...


 

 I'm concerned about this.
  
 I only liaise with xulingmrs on getting the EL3N to 6SN7 adapter made. @hypnos1 gave me the pin connections to make the EL3N strapped triodes, which I pass on to Mrs Xu. She did it correctly and was the 1st seller to offer the adapters for use in Elise as drivers. I have 4 single ones from her and they work without problems. 90+ have been sold now and I hear of no other problems. At the same time, I also gave her the pin connections for C3G to 6SN7. I got a pair from her and they work like a charm.
  
 Suzier must have copied those. I did not even know other sellers were making these until recently. It's a shame you lost 3 tubes and a tube amp.


----------



## UntilThen

tjw321 said:


> The price of Beyerdynamic T1s briefly dropped below £500 on Amazon UK so I'm finally going to be joining the club. Just have to wait for the delivery. Why did I let my Prime membership lapse...


 

 Are they the T1 g1? 
  
 There have been instances of faulty T1 g1 being sold. @connieflyer and @Lord Raven have such experiences. Fortunately with Amazon, you can return it.
  
 What LR did later was buy a used T1 g1 in nearly mint condition for an incredible price.
  
 Here's wishing you get a good pair because the T1 is made for Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Check out the T1 impression thread. Lots of favorable comments of T1 with Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT and JV,
> 
> Finally took the leap and hooked up a turntable I had lying around for years - a Technics SL-B2. Ordered a new belt and stylus and got it up and running. I must say that it sounds very nice with the Elise as a preamp. There is a quality to the vinyl sound that is not there compared to the CD of the same recording.
> 
> I also have two higher end turntables that I acquired. One is a Thorens TD 115 MKII with a Grado 3 cartridge - going to see if I can it running.


 
  
 Mordy I'm so excited for you. Now we can talk turntables and vinyls. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There's something about a turntable and a tube amp. They go back to a time before the dinosaurs. Nostalgic. 
  
 Oooh you have a Thorens too. You'll be rolling turntables soon.


----------



## Spork67

Haha, I figured therewas improvement to be had over the stock tubes. I have some EL3Ns and the (proper!) adapters on their way, but that will be it for tube rolling for a little while for me. I have the trout tournaments coming up and they cost $, a few other bills, and I plan to get a set of T1s as my next audio purchase.
  
 In other news - I tried cranking the volume up as I shut down the PC last night.
 Most of the hum stopped when the computer went to sleep, the rest stopped when the monitor shut down.
 All that remained was a faint noise (at VERY high volume setting) that sounded like when you accidentally dial a fax number from a phone. My NBN "box" is on the wall, behind Elise.
 So now I'm happy that my amp is fault-free, I just have to move some stuff around in my study to find somewhere free from interference.


----------



## tjw321

untilthen said:


> Are they the T1 g1?
> 
> There have been instances of faulty T1 g1 being sold. @connieflyer and @Lord Raven have such experiences. Fortunately with Amazon, you can return it.
> 
> ...


 
 It's a brand new T1 G2. The combination of being brand new, having detachable cables and the low price was enough to sway me away from the G1s even though the G1s were what I had been after all along.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Haha, I figured therewas improvement to be had over the stock tubes. I have some EL3Ns and the (proper!) adapters on their way, but that will be it for tube rolling for a little while for me. I have the trout tournaments coming up and they cost $, a few other bills, and I plan to get a set of T1s as my next audio purchase.
> 
> In other news - I tried cranking the volume up as I shut down the PC last night.
> Most of the hum stopped when the computer went to sleep, the rest stopped when the monitor shut down.
> ...


 

 Trout fishing? I should take up Marlin fishing.
  


 Glad you isolate your hum problems. Yesterday I too was getting a sound that sounded like you accidentally dial a fax number with the 6 pack, no music playing and volume to the max. They kind of disappeared to a very low faint buzz later. Not too perturbed since I don't turn my volume to max under daily usage.
  
 Aren't you glad you have NBN in Tasmania. It's not in my area yet. I'm on Telstra Broadband cable at 100mbps.
  
 Perhaps you should aim for a T1 G2. It will be new and you're unlikely to buy a lemon.


----------



## UntilThen

tjw321 said:


> It's a brand new T1 G2. The combination of being brand new, having detachable cables and the low price was enough to sway me away from the G1s even though the G1s were what I had been after all along.


 

 Excellent TJ !!! That's incredible value. I'm pretty sure the bass will be more solid. 
  
 I had just replied to Spork on getting T1 G2. What timing.


----------



## UntilThen

I have EL3N with Chatham 6520 on now. No music playing, volume to the max and it's dead silent. With the 6 pack, there was a bit of buzz. 
  
 Less adapters obviously better.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> Is that the famed Chatham 6AS7G you bought from me or LR?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 did i get chatham 5998 with dimpled plates from u?  that's what i'll try next. 
  
 the mullard 6080 is a nice upgrade from the rca 6as7g.  a nice combo with jan philips 6sn7wgta drivers -- i could live with these for quite a while. 
  
 i'm going to swap out the drivers for the el3n & see what gives --- primarily listening to pat barber, chilly gonzales and agnes obel during these toob tryouts.


----------



## UntilThen

Nope. You got the Chatham 6as7g from me. Love Pat Barber.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> Nope. You got the Chatham 6as7g from me. Love Pat Barber.


 

 well then, 1 pr of chatham 6as7g is lost in the hornet's nest.  i'll try those before the 5998 --- in fact, i'll install them (i think these are from LR) now so i don't forget ... & the el3n.
  
 the tonality on modern cool with the mullard 6080 is very nice.
  
 i also switched out the vdh interconnects for some pc-occ.  also switched out garden hose pwr cord for occ as well.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. Spork67, 
  
 I admire your Hobie!   
  
 I'm moving to Florida and hope to own one too, maybe a 17' tandem with it's 900 lb. payload ability.  
  
 Tubes:   they can make a modest electronic design sound wonderful.  Rolling can be an exciting adventure.
  
 I sold Tube stuff in my Audio Salon, the little Audible Illusions Modulus Pre-Amp( $450 ) could compete with my much more expensive Tube stuff, it was the carefully selected tubes supplied by the Manufacturer, nothing more.
  
 Still, knowing this doesn't quite make me pine for a Tube Amp, I'm thrilled with my Class A Schiit Asgard 2 which delivers a consistently high dopamine levels to my listening experience ( Eargasms ), using my Sennheiser headphones.
  
 I haven't heard the Felikes, yet!  I have listened to a Schiit Valhalla 2 ( tubed up with Russians ) which sounded SUPERB, wow, I bought a pair of Audeze headphones based on that experience, it was a bad purchase as the
 Audeze didn't sound good on my Asgard.  Tubes can be over the top outstanding!   
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## connieflyer

Hey tonykaz hope you enjoy Florida, of course youwill miss the cold and snow here in town we cansend you some snow later.


----------



## AltCtrl

Is the premium driver upgrade worth it on their website or can someone recommend some tubes for the Beyer DT880, Beyer T1 and HD650. Thanks!


----------



## UntilThen

Never tried those upgraded drivers and its quite an upgraded price too.

Depending on your sonic preference, C3G, EL3N and a selection of 6SN7s will give you a lot of choices. ECC31 is good too.

I use T1 and a modded HD650 too and all those drivers are good choices with varying sonic presentations.

Power tubes recommendations are 5998, 7236, Chatham 6as7g and Mullard 6080.


----------



## pctazhp

They just don't write em like this any more


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> They just don't write em like this any more


 
  
 Sounds like a pre-school song.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Sounds like a pre-school song.


 
 The Sheb Wooley version was number 1 on the Billboard pop chart from June 9 to July 14, 1958


----------



## lemting

UntilThen
 can you give me the pin connections to make the EL3N strapped triodes?
 merci


----------



## Spork67

That's a hell of a fish UT! Is that you in the photo?
  
@tonykaz - that was my first Hobie, a Revo 13. Absolutely loved it, but could not stand up on it, and always got a wet bum, which can get uncomfortable on long trips.
 I've sold it and now have a PA12, which is awesome - but I do miss the Revo.
 The new ones have a raised seat - no more "arse soup". I'll get one of them some day.
  
 re: Hum. I've done some rearranging, Elise is now on the opposite side of my (small) study to all the other elecrtonics and I've run a power cord from the next room so she isn't sharing a power board.
 There is still some noise @ high volumes, but considerably less than there was.
 Fingers crossed she will be silent with some new tubes, when I get around to that.


----------



## HOWIE13

altctrl said:


> Is the premium driver upgrade worth it on their website or can someone recommend some tubes for the Beyer DT880, Beyer T1 and HD650. Thanks!


 
  
 By co-incidence I took out my own DT880 yesterday for the first time in ages and listened with T-S 6080 powers and Sylvania 6SN7WGT drivers and the cans sound much better than I ever remember them.
  
 I used to think they sounded 'flat' and lacked dynamics, but in Elise, with these tubes, they sound rich and quite lively with big sound-stage. Will roll more today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quite an amazing transformation.


----------



## tonykaz

Snow & Ice,
  
 I'm hoping this to be my last winter in Michigan.  My wife is not 'thrilled' with moving 'down there' to a tiny house, 2,000 miles from family.  She can still have a place 'up here' if she wants.   Anyway, I'm closing up shop, packing, selling off most of my 'stuff', buying a boat, a nice folding lawn chair, a 'Terra Trike', plenty of beach clothes, a beach drum for the drum circles at sunset, a Lazy-boy, a larger pair of Magnapans & a 45 watt Conrad-Johnson MV-45a Tube Amp and 5 or 6 nice Swim suits ( for the salt water Pool gatherings ).    I hope to go "Off the Grid" and stay off.  
  
 By the way,  LG are about to release a V20 Audiophile Phone with Quad Dac Chip-set ( sept 2016 ) and Focal ( of France ) are introducing what promises to be a better Sennheiser type of headphone: Elear & Utopia ( TTVJ promises to sell me one ).  
  
 I'm still working with the Donkeys, in Ohio-Pa-Virginia-NC-Florida!  The Key States.  After Nov I'm done with elections ( I hope ). 
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## connieflyer

Well it looks like have all the bases covered, especially with the swim suits, I think after missing a couple of winters the wife should be 1uite content. Good luck to you Tony


----------



## tonykaz

Standing up,
  
 Hello again Mr. Spork67,
  
 That seat in the Hobie and standing up are what sold me about the 14 & 17 foot Hobie boats.  For me they are Adventure boats to explore Florida's Vast Intercostal waterway system. I'll power it with a 4-cycle engine or an Electric 20 lb. trust motor.  I'll have the Gulf of Mexico to venture out. I don't know if I'm brave enough to swim off the boat but people seem to do just that.
  
 I'll look into the PA12.
  
 Up here in Michigan, people buy 16' fiberglass boats with 180hp. & electric motors for our Tiny inland lake Bass Fishing.  It's interesting how the World's great Salt Waters are filled with tiny kayak fishermen using no motor at all.   
  
 I considered buying a Jet-skie boat but those things are so darn noisy, I hope for peace, quiet and simplicity. 
  
 Thanks for writing back,
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## Spork67

I have friends with bass boats and 150 - 200hp outboards.
 100kph+ is fun, but I find the pace and the stealth of the kayak therapeutic sometimes.
 I'm usually trolling a lure or two behind me when I move from spot to spot, so there is no particular hurry to get there.
  
 You have some fantastic flats fishing to look forwards to in Florida. Hope your reality is as good as your expectations.


----------



## pctazhp

Fish - smish!!! Water skiing with 315 horses:
  

  
 From my distant past in a galaxy far away


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen here is a little something to relax with , coming your way soon....


----------



## connieflyer

What a blast! Listening to everything and anything!  Just got the new PSAudio Nuwave DSD DAC  in the system, it is a noticeable upgrade from my previous PSAudio dac..  Everything is more "musical", more information in the music, exquisite detail  Listened with the 6 pack for while until went into distortion, same bad adapter, so ordered a new one. Using the EL3N's and TS 5998's just amazing, and listening to DSD files, well the detail is immense. Please forgive pic of 6 pack as that is what I was using when first installed dac, but it is okay now with only one tube per socket, as required!!  It is amazing how the increase in clarity, has opened up the Sennheiser 800 even more! Totally satisfied with the system now.  Tube rolling will be even more interesting now.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> What a blast! Listening to everything and anything!  Just got the new PSAudio Nuwave DSD DAC  in the system, it is a noticeable upgrade from my previous PSAudio dac..  Everything is more "musical", more information in the music, exquisite detail  Listened with the 6 pack for while until went into distortion, same bad adapter, so ordered a new one. Using the EL3N's and TS 5998's just amazing, and listening to DSD files, well the detail is immense. Please forgive pic of 6 pack as that is what I was using when first installed dac, but it is okay now with only one tube per socket, as required!!  It is amazing how the increase in clarity, has opened up the Sennheiser 800 even more! Totally satisfied with the system now.  Tube rolling will be even more interesting now.


 
 CF:  Really glad you are happy with your new DAC. PSAudio has been a very respected name for a long time, and it is nice to see they are still going strong.
  
 I applaud you for sending your Mannheim Steamroller records to @UntilThen. I attended one of their Christmas concerts many years ago, and they have been a longtime favorite. And, as I have said before, UT deserves recognition for the help he has given us all.
 Maybe when my latest GoFundMe drive to fund a new Utopia is successful, I'll send him my HD800S


----------



## connieflyer

I am still listening to this, longest headphone session in quite awhile.  A definate improvement, and well worth the price to me. The difference is immediate and constitant across all media types and genre's.  Very happy with it.  As for the vinyl to @UntilThen, he has been a big influence for me and my journey with Elise, and on pm's he has been a friend, and a steadying influence for me, after my wife's passing, a true friend and influence. And knowing that the lp's will be going to someone that will enjoy them made it a no brainer (I do no brain things well!).  Must take these phones off and get some lunch, need food to keep going and a bathroom break is overdue!


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> What a blast! Listening to everything and anything!  Just got the new PSAudio Nuwave DSD DAC  in the system, it is a noticeable upgrade from my previous PSAudio dac..  Everything is more "musical", more information in the music, exquisite detail  Listened with the 6 pack for while until went into distortion, same bad adapter, so ordered a new one. Using the EL3N's and TS 5998's just amazing, and listening to DSD files, well the detail is immense. Please forgive pic of 6 pack as that is what I was using when first installed dac, but it is okay now with only one tube per socket, as required!!  It is amazing how the increase in clarity, has opened up the Sennheiser 800 even more! Totally satisfied with the system now.  Tube rolling will be even more interesting now.


 
  
 My second co-incidence with Elise today.
  
 Got out my old DT880 with 5998/EL3N set-up like yours and detail is really incredible. Listening to Mozart piano I reversed the channels as the recording engineer had the treble on the left, and now I am imagining I am playing, hearing every note in it's exact position. Have never been able to do that before.
 Of course, I can only imagine how much better the HD800 would sound as much as I can only dream of playing as well as Mitsuko Uchida


----------



## HOWIE13

.....and here she is:


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer and @pctazhp thanks for such kind words but I was just enjoying myself immensely here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just listen to the Mannheim Steamroller Fresh Aire 7 you posted. It's good. Love it. Looking forward indeed to the LPs coming my way. Deeply appreciative. Thanks very much.
  
 What a lovely photo you've taken of Elise with those red tubes and your PS Audio DAC. There's even a Navy seal. Priceless. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@pctazhp I'm looking forward and hoping your Utopia quest is successful but my son will get me the HD800. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Daughter gave me the T1 and wife gave me the DAC and turntable. I must have done something right. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  @hypnos1 will give me the GEC 6as7g. Life's too good.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> My second co-incidence with Elise today.
> 
> Got out my old DT880 with 5998/EL3N set-up like yours and detail is really incredible. Listening to Mozart piano I reversed the channels as the recording engineer had the treble on the left, and now I am imagining I am playing, hearing every note in it's exact position. Have never been able to do that before.
> Of course, I can only imagine how much better the HD800 would sound as much as I can only dream of playing as well as Mitsuko Uchida


 
  
 Howie seeing how much you love classical, HD800 should be high on your Christmas gift list. You won't need the Christmas tree setup then. Guaranteed.


----------



## geetarman49

anyone here try the audio zenith pmx2 with elise?
  
 still early days but the el3n & chatham 6as7g is a great combo -- just kills the jan philips 6sn7wgta & rca 6as7g, but i'll revisit this philips driver later on.


----------



## connieflyer

UntilThen The Navy seal is just a coaster nad to move the coffee mug do I vould get the pic forgot the coaster. Howie you will be very impressed with the 800 for classical, very revealing. Ah piano, my favorite instrument, I tried it when I was younger, but could not find a piano that had extra wide keyes, kept hitting more than one key per finger!


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> anyone here try the audio zenith pmx2 with elise?
> 
> still early days but the el3n & chatham 6as7g is a great combo -- just kills the jan philips 6sn7wgta & rca 6as7g, but i'll revisit this philips driver later on.


 

 I thought the Audio Zenith PMX2 looks like a OPPO PM2. It is a heavily modified PM2. Rather heavy at 483 grams though. A lot of modified headphones on the market now. 
  
 A lot seems to like EL3N and Chatham 6as7g combo. That doesn't surprise me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've always said that.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen The Navy seal is just a coaster nad to move the coffee mug do I vould get the pic forgot the coaster. Howie you will be very impressed with the 800 for classical, very revealing. Ah piano, my favorite instrument, I tried it when I was younger, *but could not find a piano that had extra wide keyes*, kept hitting more than one key per finger!


 
  
 I never could find a piano that had a place I could find to stick those paper rolls in and make it do the work


----------



## mordy

Listening to EL3N and Tung Sol 7236 and enjoying a hypnos1 moment - suddenly my system seems to sound tangibly better. Maybe the 7236 tubes have suddenly improved.
  
 I am playing authentic American New Orleans Jazz in glorious mono - Bunk Johnson's Band from 1945 with great New Orleans drumming by Baby Dodds.
  
 I know, nobody listens to this kind of music, but I like it...


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> I am playing authentic American New Orleans Jazz in glorious mono - Bunk Johnson's Band from 1945 with great New Orleans drumming by Baby Dodds.
> 
> I know, nobody listens to this kind of music, but I like it...




"Video ei ole käytettävissä". That's about "ur bruk". Can't see/hear it. 

Edit:

This one works:


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/l-gZDkvqfjY[/VIDEO]


----------



## UntilThen

I'm going to the record shop now to buy the Shrek.


----------



## connieflyer

This will help you move faster @UntilThen...Still have the phones on, still incredible


----------



## connieflyer

Now if you like excitement and kettle drums.....


----------



## UntilThen

I bought Led Zeppelin The Presence album. Achilles Last Stand. Where's Supersonic?


----------



## pctazhp

Speaking of music no one listens to:


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Your link does not work, and I can't seem to get my link above to work as well. Trying again:
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP1zDtaIzbU
  
 This seems to work - love the way the drummer plays the rims during the clarinet solos.


----------



## UntilThen

I bought Laura Branigan and Barbara Streisand for $1 each. I think I did well.


----------



## pctazhp

Sometimes timing is everything


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari et al,
  
 Here is a great 1929 electric recording called Market Street Stomp by the Missourians. (In 1930 Louis Armstrong took over this band).
  
 This is a ferocious recording. The enclosed version uses it as a backdrop to a silent "slap stick(?)" movie. So much is going on in this movie that it is hard to concentrate on the music, but the movie is guaranteed to bring out a smile and the recognition of what was entertainment some 85 years ago.
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoEviTBWrXg
  
  

  
 Next is a modern faithful rendition of Market Street Stomp by Vince Giordano's Night Hawks so you can get it in greater fidelity.
  

  
 Good test for kick drum...


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Howie seeing how much you love classical, HD800 should be high on your Christmas gift list. You won't need the Christmas tree setup then. Guaranteed.


 
  
 I was thinking about that yesterday, funnily enough. I've been a bit put off the 800 in the past because of reports of over bright and peaky treble.
  
 On the other hand the S version might be too attenuated in the treble. I do like clear, extended treble, and when I tell you I like AKG's, in general, you will know what I mean. I don't want fatigue or screeching, mind you, but I can't imagine Elise ever screeching, somehow.


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> re: Hum. I've done some rearranging, Elise is now on the opposite side of my (small) study to all the other elecrtonics and I've run a power cord from the next room so she isn't sharing a power board.
> There is still some noise @ high volumes, but considerably less than there was.
> Fingers crossed she will be silent with some new tubes, when I get around to that.


 
  
 Hi S67.
  
 Glad to hear you're getting a handle on the hum...it certainly appears more and more that in most cases it _*is*_ indeed due to factors in one's own particular environment alas. FA themselves would not ship a unit that suffers from it - in _*their*_ environment at least LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...And this must surely be a _tube_ thing much more than _SS_...again, alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But perseverance usually gets us there in the end...to an acceptable level at least! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Hope you remove even more of yours eventually...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


tjw321 said:


> The price of Beyerdynamic T1s briefly dropped below £500 on Amazon UK so I'm finally going to be joining the club. Just have to wait for the delivery. Why did I let my Prime membership lapse...


 
  
 At long last, T...WELCOME TO THE T1 CLUB - WELL DONE!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi S67.
> 
> Glad to hear you're getting a handle on the hum...it certainly appears more and more that in most cases it _*is*_ indeed due to factors in one's own particular environment alas. FA themselves would not ship a unit that suffers from it - in _*their*_ environment at least LOL!!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Do you two know each other?


----------



## tjw321

hypnos1 said:


> ....
> At long last, T...WELCOME TO THE T1 CLUB - WELL DONE!!!
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, H1. I suspect that you are the only one who can possibly appreciate how excited I am about this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But I now have to avoid ever listening to T1G1s ever again....
  
 I seem to have lucked out in the Amazon free-delivery lottery and I may be getting them today so my Bimby is warming up, and my Elise has the Mullard 6080s and EL3Ns set up, all waiting for the knock on the door. And I have the 1812 cued up to play at a moments notice.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Listening to EL3N and Tung Sol 7236 and enjoying a hypnos1 moment - suddenly my system seems to sound tangibly better. Maybe the 7236 tubes have suddenly improved.


 
  
 Hey mordy, careful now - you'll be having me believe my own imaginings LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...but glad you're still getting even better sound..._*and*_ with @pctazhp's "_just_ _one tube per socket"!!! _








...CHEERS!...
  


untilthen said:


> @connieflyer and @pctazhp thanks for such kind words but I was just enjoying myself immensely here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmmm UT....methinks you must have done me down in a _previous_ life LOL!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...SORRY, but gonna have to spoil your day alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...perhaps in the next life...


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Do you two know each other?


 
  
 Didn't until we met up at the Cambridge head-fi meet earlier this year...and I still feel guilty at what putting on my T1s did to him - through Elise of course, resplendant in C3g'S'/GEC CV2523 dress. @tjw321's amazement/joy are still vivid in my mind, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...so now he's the owner of _*both!!!*_...yet another LUCKY ONE!..


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> anyone here try the audio zenith pmx2 with elise?
> 
> still early days but the el3n & chatham 6as7g is a great combo -- just kills the jan philips 6sn7wgta & rca 6as7g, but i'll revisit this philips driver later on.


 
  
 Glad you're liking the EL3N/Chatham combo, g49...and can only get even better LOL!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


untilthen said:


> I thought the Audio Zenith PMX2 looks like a OPPO PM2. It is a heavily modified PM2. Rather heavy at 483 grams though. A lot of modified headphones on the market now.
> 
> *A lot seems to like EL3N and Chatham 6as7g combo. That doesn't surprise me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well UT...the number of EL3N fans continues to grow - encouraging indeed to see that we weren't fooling ourselves all this while LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...amazing tubes - especially for the money!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I was thinking about that yesterday, funnily enough. I've been a bit put off the 800 in the past because of reports of over bright and peaky treble.
> 
> On the other hand the S version might be too attenuated in the treble. I do like clear, extended treble, and when I tell you I like AKG's, in general, you will know what I mean. I don't want fatigue or screeching, mind you, but I can't imagine Elise ever screeching, somehow.


 
 Ordinarily I wouldn't have enjoy T1, HD800 and HE560 if not for Elise. A good tube amp will make these headphones enjoyable without sounding shrill and screeching. I'm surprised at how my taste have shifted from HD650 to these headphones .... because of Elise.
  
 Well other good tubes amps will do that too but my experience is with Elise and at a very good value price point.
  


tjw321 said:


> Thanks, H1. I suspect that you are the only one who can possibly appreciate how excited I am about this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It will be a special moment, having Beyer T1 g2 with Elise using EL3N and Mullard 6080. You'll love 1812 and more. I'm excited for you too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


hypnos1 said:


> Hmmm UT....methinks you must have done me down in a _previous_ life LOL!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I had a nap and woke up at 7pm feeling very disorientated but this makes me laugh. Love the camaraderie around here.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Didn't until we met up at the Cambridge head-fi meet earlier this year...and I still feel guilty at what putting on my T1s did to him - through Elise of course, resplendant in C3g'S'/GEC CV2523 dress. @tjw321's amazement/joy are still vivid in my mind, lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's nice to meet new enthusiasts. I had to miss London because of my sciatica, which is now, thankfully improving.
  
 I'm going to splash out before the end of the year on new cans- HD800/800S or TI g1 or 2. 
 There's lots of advocates for all four so I'll take some time to research and learn from others.
 Cheers, and I'm enjoying EL3N's as drivers. Surprisingly clear with good treble extension, yet still warm and engaging. Humless too!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Well UT...the number of EL3N fans continues to grow - encouraging indeed to see that we weren't fooling ourselves all this while LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm glad you took the trouble and experimented with EL3N and brought us this tube. It is certainly a unique and special tone for an equally special price on NOS tubes.
  
 It is certainly good to see others loving and enjoying it too. We weren't fooling ourselves.


----------



## tjw321

untilthen said:


> ...
> It will be a special moment, having Beyer T1 g2 with Elise using EL3N and Mullard 6080. You'll love 1812 and more. I'm excited for you too.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks UT, I really appreciate it.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hmmm I see possible value in this lot here, if someone's interested. Also do I need an adapter for the 6080 tubes?


----------



## DecentLevi

Also would @HOWIE13 or anybody know if either Phillips or Sylvania 6080 tubes have any sonic advantages over GE 6AS7 GA? Because the appear similar


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Also would @HOWIE13 or anybody know if either Phillips or Sylvania 6080 tubes have any sonic advantages over GE 6AS7 GA? Because the appear similar


 
 You don't need an adapter for the 6080.
  
 I think those 6080's have a wider sound-stage and a bit more detail than the GE 6AS7's I've used.
  
 The GE is very musical and pleasantly warm without clouding important detail. The 6080's are a bit more analytical and dynamic.
  
 All good tubes, synergising well in my system, my ears etc, etc.....


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hmmm I see possible value in this lot here, if someone's interested. Also do I need an adapter for the 6080 tubes?


 
 Looks like you may have to buy several more amps or go into the tube selling business if you purchase all those.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 EDIT (afterthought)-no adapter needed by the way. Same 2.5mA heater current as 6AS7 too.


----------



## UntilThen

My 'other' ECC31 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 with economical power tubes. Sounding pretty good for a Friday night listening session.


----------



## tjw321

Postman has been - OMG!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 More later...probably much later. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Definitely NOT disappointed.


----------



## aqsw

aqsw said:


> Have not been around for awhile, The Elise is still rocking.
> 
> I did buy a Fiio x7 and B&O H8 for just listening.




I sent the H8 back. I could not get use to the on ears. Bought some Masters and Dynamic MW 60s to replace the H8s.


----------



## HOWIE13

Yippee-  adapters arrived and 6 pack up and running- this is sounding  sweet:
  
  
  

  
  
 Have ordered more tubes, some of these are old and could do with replacing with nice pristine ones.


----------



## UntilThen

Get the EL3Ns from http://www.acoustic-dimension.com. 20 euros each. NOS NIB. Best deal.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm getting really fond of the 'Endless River', last studio album by Pink Floyd. The album is made up of mostly ambient and instrumental music. This is what David Gilmour says. "Unapologetically, this is for the generation that wants to put its headphones on, lie in a beanbag, or whatever, and get off on a piece of music for an extended period of time."
  
I'll always play this album using the 6 pack on Elise. Those who are familiar with Endless River will know why. The sense of scale is haunting. It's mesmerising.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Get the EL3Ns from http://www.acoustic-dimension.com. 20 euros each. NOS NIB. Best deal.


 
  
 That's a very good deal. Thanks for the link.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Get the EL3Ns from http://www.acoustic-dimension.com. 20 euros each. NOS NIB. Best deal.


 
 That site has some interesting links, including this one: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/1108/ The EL3N came out on top of the 8 low power output tubes. It also had the lowest 3rd order harmonic distortion.
  
 And this is a pretty cool set up: http://singleended.web.fc2.com/403.htm
  
 While I'm ordering tubes, do you recommend I buy 5 or 10 of the Bybee Quantum Singal Enhancers:
  
*"This new and simple to use device purifies the electron flow, thereby reducing noise and hash to dramatically improve performance. Additionally the unit effects (sic) surrounding air molecules to allow the sound to travel less impeded, resulting in a larger, more dynamic sound stage."*
  
 Fairy dust anyone???


----------



## richdytch

pctazhp said:


> That site has some interesting links, including this one: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/1108/ The EL3N came out on top of the 8 low power output tubes. It also had the lowest 3rd order harmonic distortion.
> 
> And this is a pretty cool set up: http://singleended.web.fc2.com/403.htm
> 
> ...




Ask them to sell you some for a blind ABX test on headfi and see what they say


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> That site has some interesting links, including this one: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/1108/ The EL3N came out on top of the 8 low power output tubes. It also had the lowest 3rd order harmonic distortion.
> 
> And this is a pretty cool set up: http://singleended.web.fc2.com/403.htm
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Unbelievable!


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Ask them to sell you some for a blind ABX test on headfi and see what they say


 
  
 Indeed, and if they were really confident with their product they would give us them free to try.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Indeed, and if they were really confident with their product they would give us them free to try.


 
 I live near Sedona. So I just string large crystals over my head for while I'm listening and the result is beyond belief or description


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I live near Sedona. So I just string large crystals over my head for while I'm listening and the result is beyond belief or description


 
  
  
 In Scotland I guess we would do it with granite. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So beautiful where you are. I was in the area on holiday in the early '80s during a sabbatical year in San Francisco.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> In Scotland I guess we would do it with granite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I live in north Scottsdale. If you are ever back look me up - assuming I'm still here )))


----------



## geetarman49

hypnos1 said:


> Glad you're liking the EL3N/Chatham combo, g49...and can only get even better LOL!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> I'm glad you took the trouble and experimented with EL3N and brought us this tube. It is certainly a unique and special tone for an equally special price on NOS tubes.
> 
> It is certainly good to see others loving and enjoying it too. We weren't fooling ourselves.


 
  
 no ... you guys are right on the money ... this tube is effin' great.  great enough to pull me away from my new 55" vizio p-series for a while.
  
 but i'm not a fan of the boat anchors  -- the blk screw-hole portion just mucks up the aesthetics for me.


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> no ... you guys are right on the money ... *this tube is effin' great.  great enough to pull me away from my new 55" vizio p-series for a while.*
> 
> but i'm not a fan of the boat anchors  -- the blk screw-hole portion just mucks up the aesthetics for me.


 
 Wowee, g49...endorsement indeed LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...that's music to my ears...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....
  
 Now all you gotta do is get brave and start experimenting with making your own adapters, so you can get Elise + EL3N looking thus.....
  

  
 But be warned...this job - especially with this tube's really weird base - is _not_ as easy as it may seem LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(probably easier to just divert your eyes as necessary! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...CHEERS!...


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I live in north Scottsdale. If you are ever back look me up - assuming I'm still here )))


 
  
  
 I loved my year in America and in retrospect probably should have taken up an offer to stay. I had a huge old Pontiac Catalina (bought from Horsetrader Ed -fancy remembering that) and drove all over. It was the first time I had driven an automatic car-and I've never gone back to manual gears since.
  
 I'll sure look you up if I come over again and if *I* survive you are most welcome in Scotland too.


----------



## geetarman49

hypnos1 said:


> Wowee, g49...endorsement indeed LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 yeah ... that's the ticket ... great job.  did you document this someplace? what, where, when, how?  but i'm probably too lazy to tackle this; i'll just close my eyes & listen to feist & agnes obel.


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> yeah ... that's the ticket ... great job.  did you document this someplace? what, where, when, how?  but i'm probably too lazy to tackle this; i'll just close my eyes & listen to feist & agnes obel.


 
  
 Unlike the C3g adapter for the LittleDots, I decided against posting a tutorial...found this one very tricky indeed, and certainly not for newcomers to adapter-making alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...so yes, just keep those peepers closed LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and ENJOY!!!...


----------



## UntilThen

@hpynos1 your photo of EL3Ns on Elise is so beautiful. I wish mine's like that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 However there's one way to get along with those white marshmallows. You up the fashion scales with this.


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 I once owned a 1969 Pontiac Catalina 4-door in beige. Until I took a turn near my house in a snowstorm and slid into a fire hydrant.......
  




  
 Basically a huge comfortable boat on the road.....


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> I once owned a 1969 Pontiac Catalina 4-door in beige. Until I took a turn near my house in a snowstorm and slid into a fire hydrant.......
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's the one Mordy- same colour too. Memories are flooding back, driving down the coast at weekends, the sun, sea, beach... ah well, all in the past now. Time I went to bed I guess.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> That's the one Mordy- same colour too. Memories are flooding back, driving down the coast at weekends, the sun, sea, beach... ah well, all in the past now. Time I went to bed I guess.


 

 That's a beautiful car. This was my ship. Memories are fading.


----------



## UntilThen

Fostex TH-X00 Ebony anyone? Looks promising.
  
post #7290


----------



## connieflyer

An old time American song,  kind of slowing down tonight


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> An old time American song,  kind of slowing down tonight


 
 No slowing down for you young man. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I regret not buying Judy Collins album used for $8 yesterday because I love her voice singing this.


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  your LPs are in Chicago.


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> Fostex TH-X00 Ebony anyone? Looks promising.
> 
> post #7290


 
 Here's my review on the Ebony vs. the other two TH-X00 versions on the thread I started after spending a week with loaner units from a friend at Massdrop:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/814762/massdrop-fostex-th-x00-ebony-impressions-thread/75#post_12754668
  
 It's been a while since I tried them and decided to stick with the custom modded closed 'can in my signature for better isolation and tamer highs. Didn't bother reading the review from the owner; just trust my own ears largely... though if you're not sensitive to high treble and not in need of much isolation, these do indeed have superior ability to handle complex recordings and bass quality


----------



## DecentLevi

I found a sleek deal on Mullard 6080's for only 30 pounds each here, and he seems to have a lot available. Would any of you say this is a good value, and how they are different from other 6080 brands? Thanks!


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> I found a sleek deal on Mullard 6080's for only 30 pounds each here, and he seems to have a lot available. Would any of you say this is a good value, and how they are different from other 6080 brands? Thanks!


 

 Those Mullard 6080 are from Langrex, a reputable seller. They have 2 types. Both in my opinion are pretty good tubes in the 6080 family.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-CV2984-MULLARD-NOS-BOXED-VALVE-TUBE-/311154206725?hash=item48723c6805
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-MULLARD-NOS-BOXED-VALVE-TUBE-/311478749131?hash=item48859487cb
  
 In the world of 6080, the Mullards probably sits in the middle of the pile. More highly regarded are the Bendix and GEC 6080WB. However the Mullards would be better than the Thompson, GE or Sylvania 6080. Very nice tubes with a copper grid. The sound is defined, detailed, a touch on the bright side with a punchy mid bass. There's a lot to like about this power tube but I tend to prefer the Chatham 6AS7G.


----------



## UntilThen

This pair of Chatham 6080WA with graphite plates would be similar to the Bendix 6080WB category. If I hadn't so many tubes already, I'd probably have gone for it. Any takers? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHATHAM-CARBON-PLATE-MATCHED-PAIR-JAN-CAHG-6080WA-6080-RARE-TUBES-2-PIECES/401152713756?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D38804%26meid%3D349a474f865c4f15b7ee4d38052efa1a%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D151673051637


----------



## UntilThen

This matched pair of Tung Sol 5998 is similar to what I have but it has a pretty sick price. US$398. I got mine brand new for US$239 late last year. Mine is preserved for posterity. 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-TUNG-SOL-TYPE-5998-VACUUM-TUBE-NOS-1967-DATED-421A/381694481565?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D38804%26meid%3D385b4ca4a13142bc98847a1a65f86783%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D262580987358
  
 It says *Prices are likely to double in the next 5 years for this tube. *





 
  
 Here's my precious light bulbs.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright all this is useless without some new and exciting music.


----------



## UntilThen

Nothing like a bit of bluesy rock by good ole Keith on a Sat afternoon.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright one more. Volume up. Hope you like the killa drum and bass.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> That's a beautiful car. This was my ship. Memories are fading.


 
  
 HAHA- wish my memories were like yours.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> I found a sleek deal on Mullard 6080's for only 30 pounds each here, and he seems to have a lot available. Would any of you say this is a good value, and how they are different from other 6080 brands? Thanks!


 
  
 I would advise you go for the CV2984 version as in UT's post,#1452.
  
 I have both versions from this excellent seller and I found the version in the blue box to sound very good but was too microphonic. 
  
 The CV version is a gem. Clear, warm and sweet, with excellent sound stage. As ever of course it depends on the partnering drivers. It's more dynamic with C3g's, smoother with some 6SN7's like 'Chrome Dome'.
  
 An excellent, reasonably priced introduction to the delights of 6080 tubes for you.


----------



## Spork67

In my environment, Elise still has a hum at very (very!) high volume.
 I'm still chasing a hum-free setup, (including at stupidly high volumes i will NEVER use!)
  
 If I disconnect the cables (RCA) from the DAC, Elise is dead silent at %100 volume.
 If I plug my HPs into the HP out from the little Grace DAC/amp, pause the music, turn volume to full, it's dead silent.
  
 So I'm a little confused.
 Is it the cables picking up some interference - or could it be the Grace DAC/amp adding it to the RCA out (but not the HP jack?)
  
 Should my next step be better quality (better shielded) RCA cables?
 If so - any links to some that aren't stupidly expensive?


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> In my environment, Elise still has a hum at very (very!) high volume.
> I'm still chasing a hum-free setup, (including at stupidly high volumes i will NEVER use!)
> 
> If I disconnect the cables (RCA) from the DAC, Elise is dead silent at %100 volume.
> ...


 

 Sounds like you have got ground loop going on there. Are both Grace and Elise grounded? As in they have 3 pin plug with ground?
  
 Just as an experiment, move your source, dac and Elise to another room and try it. See if hum still persist at high volume with no music playing. I'm also curious if replacing the tubes will resolve the problem. Hope you get another pair of driver and power tubes soon.
  
 Fyi, I'm using plain Jane RCA cable of the red and black variety. I don't get any of the hum noise you're experiencing. Furthermore I use a 4 in 1 splitter that allows me to switch input between the turntable and DAC. I've got more connections than you.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> In my environment, Elise still has a hum at very (very!) high volume.
> I'm still chasing a hum-free setup, (including at stupidly high volumes i will NEVER use!)
> 
> If I disconnect the cables (RCA) from the DAC, Elise is dead silent at %100 volume.
> ...


 
  
 If your amp's RCA outputs can have their volume controlled you could initially lower the volume right down and connect your headphones directly to those RCA outputs with an RCA to 3.5 or 6.3mm female adapter/cable, whichever is appropriate for your headphones. If there is no hum then the problem is not with the amp. If it still hums it's the amp picking up or causing the hum, but that wouldn't exclude the cable being a problem too.
  
 Be careful though, the RCA voltage out from the DAC may be too high for your cans and could damage them unless you can attenuate the voltage in some way ie with volume control..


----------



## Spork67

Thanks guys.
  
@UntilThen - The DAC/amp gets power via USB from the PC, with an optional USB to power point. With the optional one connected it's meant to get all it's power from that one and signal (only) from the PC. That connection is a 2 pin plug (no ground) only. Unplugging it so that the DAC is getting both power and signal over the one USB doesn't seem to make any difference to the hum from Elise, and the HP output on the Grace is still hum-free.
  
 Moving my source (full tower PV) to another room will be a PITA - but will move the DAC and Elise to a different room and try with a longish USB lead. I could also try with a laptop as source. 
  
 I have some 6080s and some EL3Ns and adapters coming "strictly for troubleshooting purposes". 
  
@HOWIE13 the DAC/amp volume controller does indeed alter the output to the RCA jacks. I'll see if I can get an RCA male to 6.3mm female cable and test that way also.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> @UntilThen - The DAC/amp gets power via USB from the PC, with an optional USB to power point. With the optional one connected it's meant to get all it's power from that one and signal (only) from the PC. That connection is a 2 pin plug (no ground) only. Unplugging it so that the DAC is getting both power and signal over the one USB doesn't seem to make any difference to the hum from Elise, and the HP output on the Grace is still hum-free.
> 
> ...


 
  
 They are easy enough to source- most local HiFi /multimedia stores have them if you live near one to save you ordering on- line and waiting. I know how these  issues can be so annoying.
  
 Come to think of it as long as you don't have any music playing I think you could briefly up the volume from the line out to check for hum without harming your headphones-not 100% sure as have never tried it.
 You can get a nice pure musical sound at low volumes.


----------



## UntilThen

My sympathies. Hum of any kind can be annoying. 
  
 6xEL3N has become silent for me again. With no music playing and volume turn to max and headphone on, I'm getting total silence. I do wish every Elise owner have this experience too.
  
 Btw this 6 pack is sounding so good and hardly any heat after 4 hours, I'll just let it stay in.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> My sympathies. Hum of any kind can be annoying.
> 
> 6xEL3N has become silent for me again. With no music playing and volume turn to max and headphone on, I'm getting total silence. I do wish every Elise owner have this experience too.
> 
> Btw this 6 pack is sounding so good and hardly any heat after 4 hours, I'll just let it stay in.


 
  
 That brings me a question that I've always wanted to ask but usually forget.
  
 If you are tube rolling several drivers to make comparisons with the same power tubes should you switch off the power to Elise each time you change the drivers or do you just pull the drivers out of their sockets and replace them with the next ones without switching off?
  
 I've always done the former but I've concerns that constantly switching on and off could damage or shorten the life of the power tubes, which of course may be my much cherished and very expensive 5998's.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> That brings me a question that I've always wanted to ask but usually forget.
> 
> If you are tube rolling several drivers to make comparisons with the same power tubes should you switch off the power to Elise each time you change the drivers or do you just pull the drivers out of their sockets and replace them with the next ones without switching off?
> 
> I've always done the former but I've concerns that constantly switching on and off could damage or shorten the life of the power tubes, which of course may be my much cherished and very expensive 5998's.


 

 OMG Howie I almost choke on my spaghetti. !!! 
  
 Don't you even think of pulling out the drivers without switching off Elise. One, you'll burn your fingers. Two, you'll see the 4th of July fireworks. 
  
 This is call extreme tube rolling.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> OMG Howie I almost choke on my spaghetti. !!!
> 
> Don't you even think of pulling out the drivers without switching off Elise. One, you'll burn your fingers. Two, you'll see the 4th of July fireworks.


 
  
 OK stopped thinking that.
  
 Spaghetti at this time of the morning- but of course it's evening for you.


----------



## Spork67

howie13 said:


> ...
> You can get a nice pure musical sound at low volumes.


 
 I'm mostly listening with the volume between 9 and 10 o'clock - 75-82db.
 Thinking I'll possibly need more power to get same volume from the HE400i's when they arrive.
 TBH, the hum isn't impacting at all on my listening enjoyment, but it does bother me (at least a little bit)_ knowing _that it is there, somewhere...


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13 you should try and audition HE560 with Elise. It's an amazing headphone. Love it so much. Each time I switch from modded HD650 to HE560 I go WOW.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I'm mostly listening with the volume between 9 and 10 o'clock - 75-82db.
> Thinking I'll possibly need more power to get same volume from the HE400i's when they arrive.
> TBH, the hum isn't impacting at all on my listening enjoyment, but it does bother me (at least a little bit)_ knowing _that it is there, somewhere...


 

 Between 9 and 10 when using HD650 and T1 for me. Need slightly more for T1.
  
 With HE560, I'd turn it up to 11 or 12. So clear and the bass is punchy. Vocals are heavenly. Love this HifiMan. You can tell me about HE-400i when it comes.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> However the Mullards would be better than the _Thompson_, GE or Sylvania 6080.




Sidenote on tubeous history:

That's _Thomson_ after a certain English-born American, with the name Elihu, of Scottish and Huguenot ancestry. With a guy called Houston, a company (Thomson-Houston) was established. A third guy, Edison, appeared with a company bearing his name, and things lead to a (not so) small company called General Electric. Meanwhile in France, there was a company called Compagnie Française Thomson-Houston (CFTH)…


----------



## UntilThen

I'm pretty sure they missed out the 'p'.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> Fostex TH-X00 Ebony anyone? Looks promising.
> 
> post #7290


 
 Those look really sexy.....Fostex has alway been very tempting for me, as I can use a closed/semi closed can
  
 I have ordered the Omni, so hoping this will curb my Fostex appetite.
  
 I want it for acoustic guitar and music like this
  

  

  


untilthen said:


> This pair of Chatham 6080WA with graphite plates would be similar to the Bendix 6080WB category. If I hadn't so many tubes already, I'd probably have gone for it. Any takers?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  These are wonderful tubes, if you do not have these....I think that you would very much enjoy them, they are some of the best sounding tubes that i own, for sure....and they have impeccable build quality, just look at those wonderful thick graphite plates and ceramic mica's


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> That's a beautiful car. This was my ship. Memories are fading.




I'll see you as Captain Stubing from now on.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> These are wonderful tubes, if you do not have these....I think that you would very much enjoy them, they are some of the best sounding tubes that i own, for sure....and they have impeccable build quality, just look at those wonderful thick graphite plates and ceramic mica's


 
  
 Why do you have to tempt me with the Chatham 6080WA graphite plates. I've just spend US$149 on a pair of Cetron 7236 including postage and it's not even here yet.


----------



## UntilThen

Anyway back to HE560 with Elise and 6xEL3N. I've to plead the 5th Amendment not to be charge for posting this. Hope the lawyer isn't watching. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It's just beautiful together. Exquisite.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > These are wonderful tubes, if you do not have these....I think that you would very much enjoy them, they are some of the best sounding tubes that i own, for sure....and they have impeccable build quality, just look at those wonderful thick graphite plates and ceramic mica's
> ...


 
 Ha....well maybe something to think about for down the road, no need to rush out and buy them...but they are worthy, so when ever you next decide to want to buy some tubes, just keep them in mind


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for Joe Bonamassa. This guy is good. Love the blues.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @HOWIE13 you should try and audition HE560 with Elise. It's an amazing headphone. Love it so much. Each time I switch from modded HD650 to HE560 I go WOW.


 
  
 OMG, and yesterday I was musing over the HD800 and 800S.
  
 I have the HE400 and like it but it's a bit of a brute on the head, to be honest. I will try and audition or find a seller who gives returns on the HE560. I do like the weighty sound of the HE400 and I've read the 560 is a definite upgrade rather than a side-step, as some have described the 400i.
  
 Hope you didn't splatter any of your spaghetti onto your clothes when you got that earlier email I sent.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> I'm mostly listening with the volume between 9 and 10 o'clock - 75-82db.
> Thinking I'll possibly need more power to get same volume from the HE400i's when they arrive.
> TBH, the hum isn't impacting at all on my listening enjoyment, but it does bother me (at least a little bit)_ knowing _that it is there, somewhere...


 
  
 Yes at 93dB sensitivity like my HE400's, they are not as sensitive as many cans, but for Elise it's just a small increase of juice. For instance, compared with the HD 600 I would set it about an hour ahead.
  
 So for quite loud volume the Senns might be at 9.30-10 and the HE's at 10.30-11. Sounds like our ears are similar.


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> Why do you have to tempt me with the Chatham 6080WA graphite plates. I've just spend US$149 on a pair of Cetron 7236 including postage and it's not even here yet. :blink:




Do these sound different than 6080WB?


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I'm pretty sure they missed out the 'p'.




Oh, by the way, BTH and CFTH were the reasons that led to Mazda brand tubes in their respective markets.


----------



## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> Do these sound different than 6080WB?


 
 The difference is A and B. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm pretty sure they are the same but yours looks so new. So jealous.


----------



## whirlwind

I think the Chatham/Tung Sol are just rebrands ....they are for sure Bendix tubes.
  
 There is a slotted plate version that supposedly sounds better than the solid graphite plate, however i can not verify this as I only have the solid plate version.
  

  
 As you can see, with my tubes, the top mica on the tube on the left is not as thick as the ceramic mica on the tube on the right.
  
 The ones on e-bay seem to look this way also.
  
 I bought my tubes seperate, one in a lot of 6080 tubes that i paid peanuts for, i spotted the Bendix in the picture....then I bought a single tube later on...both test great.
  
 Some day I will try a slotted pair.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> Thanks for Joe Bonamassa. This guy is good. Love the blues.


 
 You sir, are welcome.
  
 i have seen Joe about 5 times now...going to see him again in November...always a great show.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I think the Chatham/Tung Sol are just rebrands ....they are for sure Bendix tubes.
> 
> There is a slotted plate version that supposedly sounds better than the solid graphite plate, however i can not verify this as I only have the solid plate version.


 
 That's my thoughts too. They are Bendix rebrands. 
  
 I wouldn't have noticed the difference in your tubes till you pointed out the top mica thickness. 
  
 These tubes are rare now. Whether slotted or solid plates, they are desirable.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I think the Chatham/Tung Sol are just rebrands ....they are for sure Bendix tubes.
> ...


 
 Yeah, they are fairly rare, but still they pop up....key is to not over pay for them.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Anyway back to HE560 with Elise and 6xEL3N. I've to plead the 5th Amendment not to be charge for posting this. Hope the lawyer isn't watching.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The lawyer is watching you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also God:
  

  
 Relying on the 5th Amendment?? Did we just admit Australia as our 51st state??? Who you voting for on November 8???


----------



## richdytch

I realised that it's been a very long time since I tried a single EL3N per channel as output tubes - and that when I did before, I didn't really rest on that combination for very long. So tried it again today with my 1944 Ken Rad VT231s. Have to say that this combo is so far the most transparent I've tried, and with the biggest sound stage. If anything it has a tendency to sound so transparent that it's almost ethereal. However, the EL3N as an output tube is doing a great job of allowing the Ken Rads to show off their qualities -the lush bass is there and the silkiness to the treble and mid really comes through. A very high ranking combination for me ... definitely a winner for jazz and classical. Just listened to Murray Perahia's last recording of Beethoven's 1st Piano Concerto, and it was wonderful. Now got Blues-ette by Curtis Fuller on and it's handling it very nicely. A lot of delicacy. Didn't handle dirty dub reggae so well, despite the articulate bass.



I'm going to stick with it for a while. It's definitely earned more attention. And NO discernable noise. Lovely.


----------



## lukeap69

Wow. I got a good deal (I think) from an amazing local headfier. They sound great as I have already mentioned to @whirlwind. 

@Untilthen
Those pair of 7236 are expensive!


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> I realised that it's been a very long time since I tried a single EL3N per channel as output tubes - and that when I did before, I didn't really rest on that combination for very long. So tried it again today with my 1944 Ken Rad VT231s. Have to say that this combo is so far the most transparent I've tried, and with the biggest sound stage. If anything it has a tendency to sound so transparent that it's almost ethereal. However, the EL3N as an output tube is doing a great job of allowing the Ken Rads to show off their qualities -the lush bass is there and the silkiness to the treble and mid really comes through. A very high ranking combination for me ... definitely a winner for jazz and classical. Just listened to Murray Perahia's last recording of Beethoven's 1st Piano Concerto, and it was wonderful. Now got Blues-ette by Curtis Fuller on and it's handling it very nicely. A lot of delicacy. Didn't handle dirty dub reggae so well, despite the articulate bass.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to stick with it for a while. It's definitely earned more attention. And NO discernable noise. Lovely.


 
 Interesting. Single EL3Ns as power tubes ok for speakers? Try 6xEL3N. You'll play Beethoven over and over again. 
  
 Those are lovely speakers btw.


----------



## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> Wow. I got a good deal (I think) from an amazing local headfier. They sound great as I have already mentioned to @whirlwind.
> 
> @Untilthen
> Those pair of 7236 are expensive!


 

 That's what a NOS gold plated pair of 7236 cost. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I know. Some guy were selling it for $35 each but I wasn't thinking of buying then. This is a bit of impulse buying for me. It was looking so new and with boxes so I bought it. 
  
 This is where I got it from.
 https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/featured/products/copy-of-2-best-7236-pair-jan-7236-cetron-nos-1983-88-95ma-and-86-98ma-2


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Relying on the 5th Amendment?? Did we just admit Australia as our 51st state??? Who you voting for on November 8???


 
 I'm voting for Mexico.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm voting for Mexico.


 
 MY BEST LAUGH OF THE WEEK ))))))))))


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> I realised that it's been a very long time since I tried a single EL3N per channel as output tubes - and that when I did before, I didn't really rest on that combination for very long. So tried it again today with my 1944 Ken Rad VT231s. Have to say that this combo is so far the most transparent I've tried, and with the biggest sound stage. If anything it has a tendency to sound so transparent that it's almost ethereal. However, the EL3N as an output tube is doing a great job of allowing the Ken Rads to show off their qualities -the lush bass is there and the silkiness to the treble and mid really comes through. A very high ranking combination for me ... definitely a winner for jazz and classical. Just listened to Murray Perahia's last recording of Beethoven's 1st Piano Concerto, and it was wonderful. Now got Blues-ette by Curtis Fuller on and it's handling it very nicely. A lot of delicacy. Didn't handle dirty dub reggae so well, despite the articulate bass.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to stick with it for a while. It's definitely earned more attention. And NO discernable noise. Lovely.


 
  
 That's very interesting. I had tried single EL3N's as power tubes but I can't remember what the drivers where. I thought the volume was relatively speaking a little low in that I had to raise the vol pot to 11-12 for moderately loud sound. Sounded nice though. 
  
 That Beethoven Perahia recording really is a peach. If it's the Sony one I'm thinking of it's quite warm and reverberant- a tough test for a system and clearly you've  come up trumps with your choice of tubes.


----------



## richdytch

> Try 6xEL3N. You'll play Beethoven over and over again.
> 
> Those are lovely speakers btw.
> [/quote
> ...


----------



## connieflyer

UntilThen wish I would have known you liked Judy Collins, I would have stuck a couple in, but would have had to pull a couple out. When you get them, you may have to surgically remove them from box!


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> That's very interesting. I had tried single EL3N's as power tubes but I can't remember what the drivers where. I thought the volume was relatively speaking a little low in that I had to raise the vol pot to 11-12 for moderately loud sound. Sounded nice though.
> 
> That Beethoven Perahia recording really is a peach. If it's the Sony one I'm thinking of it's quite warm and reverberant- a tough test for a system and clearly you've  come up trumps with your choice of tubes.




Hi Howie, yes,it's the Sony one. It's the recording of those works that keeps me coming back again and again.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Hi Howie, yes,it's the Sony one. It's the recording of those works that keeps me coming back again and again.


 
  
 They are a favourite of mine too. 
  
 He plays so adeptly- more Classical in style in the early concertos and then full blown romantic in the last two.  
  
 Another Perahia recording I can listen to over and over again is the Goldberg Variations. Perfect when the lights are off at night and everything's quiet.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> > Try 6xEL3N. You'll play Beethoven over and over again.
> >
> > Those are lovely speakers btw.
> > [/quote
> > ...


 

 Oh yes I remember your problems with multiple power tubes. No matter. Your Chatham 6AS7G should be sufficient. Could be all you need.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen wish I would have known you liked Judy Collins, I would have stuck a couple in, but would have had to pull a couple out. When you get them, you may have to surgically remove them from box!


 

 Thanks Don. Doesn't matter. Whatever you put in it.


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm fortunate not to get hum with the 4 pack EL3N's as power tubes, maybe, because as you can see from the picture below, my tubes are well used. I got them very cheaply from old equipment.
  
 The  best drivers I've found so far to my ears for the 4 power tubes, together with the EL3N's as a 6 pack, are K-R VT 231 and 6F8G.
  
 Below are the K-R's. There's a picture of the 6F8G's on the other thread,#13098, p874.
  
  
  

  
 PS. I'm ordering nice new clean tubes.


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> I'm fortunate not to get hum with the 4 pack EL3N's as power tubes, maybe, because as you can see from the picture below, my tubes are well used. I got them very cheaply from old equipment.
> 
> The  best drivers I've found so far to my ears for the 4 power tubes, together with the EL3N's as a 6 pack, are K-R VT 231 and 6F8G.
> 
> ...




Those black glass KRd are really supposed to be the business. The clear glass are lovely, so I can only imagine...


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Those black glass KRd are really supposed to be the business. The clear glass are lovely, so I can only imagine...


 
  
 There are some clear glass versions of the tube, with similar staggered plates, which are sonically identical to the smoked glass ones.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


>




This is not the thread for multiple valves per socket, but that is an interesting collection of EL3Ns. Are there any factory codes on them?


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> This is not the thread for multiple valves per socket, but that is an interesting collection of EL3Ns. Are there any factory codes on them?


 
  
 I'm afraid I can't make out any codes, they are so worn. Actually I'm surprised they work and sound so good. I can't even make out the manufacturers name on two of them.
  
 I'll happily stop discussing the dual EL3N's, on this thread and move entirely to the other one if that's the consensus, but there has been prior discussion of this set-up here.
  
 For consistency will you also be complaining about #1386, #1477 and 1492?


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> I'm afraid I can't make out any codes, they are so worn. Actually I'm surprised they work and sound so good. I can't even make out the manufacturers name on two of them.




That is a pity because you probably have valves that were not made in Austria while most of us have Austrian-made EL3Ns.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> That is a pity because you probably have valves that were not made in Austria while most of us have Austrian-made EL3Ns.


 
  
 I have another which is an Azdam and another which looks like Neotron. I think I read, maybe it was your own post, that some were made in France.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> That is a pity because you probably have valves that were not made in Austria while most of us have Austrian-made EL3Ns.


 
  
 Ah- a clue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There's one with a brown band around the base which says 'garantie', which I gather is French.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> That is a pity because you probably have valves that were not made in Austria while most of us have Austrian-made EL3Ns.


 
  
 Apologies this is all coming out in bits and bobs but on the Neutron one there is a code 1-56. Could that be January 1956 or a factory code maybe?


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> For consistency will you also be complaining about #1477 and 1492?




I certainly will if you insist! Stop it, Captain Stubing!


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/m_wFEB4Oxlo[/VIDEO]


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> I certainly will if you insist! Stop it, Captain Stubing!


 
  
  
 HAHA  okay-   so do I have any rare and very expensive EL3N tubes do you think?


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> There are some clear glass versions of the tube, with similar staggered plates, which are sonically identical to the smoked glass ones.




yes, those are what I have. For some reason the smoked glass ones seem to command far higher prices though, and seen to be held in higher regard by the 6sn7 afficionados. That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything in it, I guess.


----------



## connieflyer

Back on March 14 I purchased the first EL3N's 
 1 item sold by thetubecenter




  


   Vacuum Tubes - EL3N PHILIPS 2 Pieces NOS/NIB (1 pair) (6 available)
 ( 391401273822 )

  
   
 Add note



 ITEM PRICE:
 US $70.99
 before I found out about the better deal from @UntilThen, and then purchased 6 form his source.  The ones from tubecenter are identical to the others except for the boxes are stamped made in Holland and the tubes are printed Philips #L3N made in Holland PTT and the ones from tubecenter are printed Phillips EL3N and all tubes have the numbersMS12 A4B on the tubes. The two from tubecenter are also a little shorter by about a quarter of an inch.  Don't know where these would have been manufactured.  Any thoughts?


----------



## connieflyer

Tried  the K-R vt 231 black glass as drivers and the EL3N's as powers fub it did not have enough umphh for me. Nice clear sound though.  Put the EL3N's back as drivers and GE 5998A  Gold Aero Premium Series as powers,  now this is really nice.  I am thinking better (slightly) than the TS 5998's close call but am liking them very much, a little stronger in the mid-range lots of bass and treble. Got carried away and started playing air guitar, glad I am alone, would have been embarrasing, plus Shelby Lynne may have to quit singing and be replaced by me (yeah right!)


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Back on March 14 I purchased the first EL3N's
> 1 item sold by thetubecenter
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, I was wondering if the maybe older versions marked 'Miniwatt' are different from the ones now being sold which don't say 'Miniwatt'. Not complaining mind you, they sound terrific.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> yes, those are what I have. For some reason the smoked glass ones seem to command far higher prices though, and seen to be held in higher regard by the 6sn7 afficionados. That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything in it, I guess.


 
  
 I seem to have one as well- didn't even realise, just stumbled upon it rummaging around my tube cupboard this evening. Well it sounds identical in Ember  where I compared it as a single tube to the smoked glass ones I've got.
 I don't think many sellers are aware they are identical. So we have  bargain tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

Now if I could find another one to match this   http://www.ebay.com/itm/5998-NOS-Tung-Sol-Domino-Plate-7236-6080-421A-Bottlehead-little-bear-P8-NOS-/252520933199?hash=item3acb6ba74f:g:YMIAAOSwawpXwGzbI
  would jump all over it. These gold aero 5998a are incredible.
  
(Tung Sol was the only Manufacturer of the 5998 Domino plate version, regardless of branding)
 Western Electric purchased there 421A from Tung Sol.
 GM Measurements 11,200-11,3000. 100% New/NOS (Minimum reading is 8000) seller.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> HAHA  okay-   so do I have any rare and very expensive EL3N tubes do you think?




I'm pretty lost with them codes until we see enough of them.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> I'm pretty lost with them codes until we see enough of them.


 
  
 Codes are so confusing, especially when they are encrypted.
  
 Do you have any idea if the designation 'miniwatt' makes any difference? The new ones for sale at present that I've seen don't call them miniwatt anymore.


----------



## UntilThen

Let me share this song to kick off the day. @whirlwind  I'm so loving this song by Joe Bonamassa. 
  

Babe, you’ve been feeling poorly
I’ve been dealing with stress
Why don’t we go out tonight
Put on your favorite dress


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Do you have any idea if the designation 'miniwatt' makes any difference? The new ones for sale at present that I've seen don't call them miniwatt anymore.




As far as I know, Miniwatt is just a Philips subbrand.


----------



## UntilThen

O   kay.... so that's what Captain Stubing is.... Love Boat. @hypnos1 should know. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm pretty sure miniwatt or maxiwatt don't make a difference because these right out of the box just sing and they don't hum... well for me at least. They sing better as the days go by. Dang the Drive song sounds so good with Blues and with these tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> As far as I know, Miniwatt is just a Philips subbrand.


 
  
 Thanks-that's good to know some things stay the same.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> O   kay.... so that's what Captain Stubing is.... Love Boat. @hypnos1 should know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Didn't you post us a picture of your love boat yesterday?


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> Let me share this song to kick off the day. @whirlwind  I'm so loving this song by Joe Bonamassa.
> 
> 
> Babe, you’ve been feeling poorly
> ...




 Yeah, great song from a great album.


----------



## UntilThen

Philips EL3N are being sold at expensive prices in some places.
  
 https://tubedepot.com/products/philips-holland-el3n-red-series
 http://www.tubeholland.com/page64.html
  
 $99 and $80 each respectively. 
  
 Or maybe http://www.acoustic-dimension.com is selling it cheap at 20 euros each.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Yeah, great song from a great album.


 

 It's on repeat... over and over again. @HOWIE13 started this phenomena.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> It's on repeat... over and over again. @HOWIE13 started this phenomena.


 
  
 ...and best not repeat about those tubes being cheap otherwise they will go up in price before I've a chance to buy a few spares.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, or maybe.


----------



## connieflyer

Interesting article about tube noise ....http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/25/253369.html


----------



## Spork67

connieflyer said:


> Interesting article about tube noise ....http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/25/253369.html


 
 Interesting read, cheers CF.
 Even though my amp is new, I guess some parts may have been sitting on a shelf fo a long time.
 I'll try cleaning sockets and pins and see if that helps at all.


----------



## mordy

Hi Spork67,
  
 Almost always when I turn the volume up very high (too loud for listening) I get hum. Since this amount of hum is not heard at even loud listening levels, I have decided not to expand energy on finding the elusive ground loops etc. It is not a perfect situation, but eminently livable.
  
 Regarding the Bendix 6080 tubes I remember reading that there are four different variants with a very slight edge given to the slotted versions. The prices are going through the sky, but with patience and perseverance it should be possible to pick up bargain priced tubes, although that may have to be single tubes.
  
 Don't know if the Tung Sol and Chatham ceramic plates 6080s are Bendix rebrands or not.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I'd say the jury's still out on whether it's safe or not to change tubes without turning the Elise off. I specifically remember JV telling me from a direct source that it's perfectly OK to turn on the Elise without any tubes (or with only two IIRC), which I have done during former troubleshooting without any ill effects; other than no sound whatsoever without tubes. Though I've personally never tried changing tubes with the Elise left on, I'd venture to say it may perhaps mess with the operating points a bit if done frequently. But I believe F.A. would be the best authority on this; maybe somebody would ask them their take next time talking to them?
  
 Also thanks guys for the tips on Mullard 6080's. I snagged a pair of the better ones recommended for only 30 pounds each tube - from eBay seller Yitry and his service seems excellent. 
  
 Oh and somebody was mentioning the Beyer. DT-880 headphones. It's worth repeating that upon testing my former pair, its' synergy with Elise was terrible, sounding very thin and off kilter in some way, IIRC. This was however the 32-ohm version so you may have better luck with the 600 ohm version on Elise


----------



## UntilThen

Please read their user manual on general safety operation regarding tube exchange.

It's common sense you don't pull tubes out of their sockets when the tube amp is in operation.


----------



## DecentLevi

Introducing the next sound enhancement remedy for tubes:
  
*Tube Dampeners* 
 With these specially made bands, you can reduce microphonics, widen the soundstage a bit, and improve the overall sound sound quality _(per the reviews anyway)_ - for a low price and many sizes available.
LINK


----------



## UntilThen

Bands look nice. Mark Knopfler approves.


----------



## DecentLevi

Awesome, I thought ya'll were gonna torment me on all the sillyness of this voodo fairy dust or what not... but let's see who wants to be the first of us to try it!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Reviews are in link above


----------



## UntilThen

Mark Knopfler does love headbands. He has it in all colors.


----------



## lukeap69

Yes he does! And wristbands!


----------



## Spork67

decentlevi said:


> Introducing the next sound enhancement remedy for tubes:
> 
> *Tube Dampeners*
> With these specially made bands, you can reduce microphonics, widen the soundstage a bit, and improve the overall sound sound quality _(per the reviews anyway)_ - for a low price and many sizes available.
> LINK


 
 I can sort of understand how the bands might reduce microphonics.
 I don't understane anywhere near enough about the workings of tubes to understand how they widen sound-stage or improve overall sound quality.
 I look forward to seeing your results, esp. if you can get someone to help you do some blind testing.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright got my father's day lunch and time to open the present. 
  
 Led Zep 'Presence'  Brand spanking new. This is the first new Led Zep LP that I have. So stoked. Achilles Last Stand is a full 10 mins and really amazing. Love it.
  
@supersonic395  you listening? He's my Led Zep friend.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well I'd say the jury's still out on whether it's safe or not to change tubes without turning the Elise off. I specifically remember JV telling me from a direct source that it's perfectly OK to turn on the Elise without any tubes (or with only two IIRC), which I have done during former troubleshooting without any ill effects; other than no sound whatsoever without tubes. Though I've personally never tried changing tubes with the Elise left on, I'd venture to say it may perhaps mess with the operating points a bit if done frequently. But I believe F.A. would be the best authority on this; maybe somebody would ask them their take next time talking to them?
> 
> Also thanks guys for the tips on Mullard 6080's. I snagged a pair of the better ones recommended for only 30 pounds each tube - from eBay seller Yitry and his service seems excellent.
> 
> Oh and somebody was mentioning the Beyer. DT-880 headphones. It's worth repeating that upon testing my former pair, its' synergy with Elise was terrible, sounding very thin and off kilter in some way, IIRC. This was however the 32-ohm version so you may have better luck with the 600 ohm version on Elise


 
  
 It may have been me recently mentioning the DT880,
  
 I have the 250ohm version, and I never felt it sounded engaging with any amplifier I'd used until I listened with the 6 pack. Now it comes to life and has a dynamism it never had before. It's still a pretty neutral headpnone but the bass is punchier and the treble smoother, but just as clear as before. Very good synergy with 6 EL3N's.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Introducing the next sound enhancement remedy for tubes:
> 
> *Tube Dampeners*
> With these specially made bands, you can reduce microphonics, widen the soundstage a bit, and improve the overall sound sound quality _(per the reviews anyway)_ - for a low price and many sizes available.
> LINK


 
  
 I have those sort of things. Used them in several noisy tubes in Garage amps--- completely useless.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well I'd say the jury's still out on whether it's safe or not to change tubes without turning the Elise off. I specifically remember JV telling me from a direct source that it's perfectly OK to turn on the Elise without any tubes (or with only two IIRC), which I have done during former troubleshooting without any ill effects; other than no sound whatsoever without tubes. Though I've personally never tried changing tubes with the Elise left on, I'd venture to say it may perhaps mess with the operating points a bit if done frequently. But I believe F.A. would be the best authority on this; maybe somebody would ask them their take next time talking to them?
> 
> Also thanks guys for the tips on Mullard 6080's. I snagged a pair of the better ones recommended for only 30 pounds each tube - from eBay seller Yitry and his service seems excellent.
> 
> Oh and somebody was mentioning the Beyer. DT-880 headphones. It's worth repeating that upon testing my former pair, its' synergy with Elise was terrible, sounding very thin and off kilter in some way, IIRC. This was however the 32-ohm version so you may have better luck with the 600 ohm version on Elise


 
  
 Was it the CV ones you bought?


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Spork67,
> 
> Almost always when I turn the volume up very high (too loud for listening) I get hum. Since this amount of hum is not heard at even loud listening levels, I have decided not to expand energy on finding the elusive ground loops etc. It is not a perfect situation, but eminently livable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's my philosophy on hum too. When I think about it all those electrons moving around would be expected to make some noise at high gain/volume settings. As long as I don't hear it during listening, including gaps in the music, I don't care about it.
  
 Another thing is whether I hear hum very much depends on the headphone. If I'm using a headphone whose sound signature is warm and tuned more towards the lower mids and bass I hear the hum more loudly than with more treble tuned cans. For instance, if I want to check if there's hum I would listen with my HD598 or X2, with those I may hear hum that I don't hear at all with my AKG's. 
  
 I think headphone variability may go some way to explain our different experiences with hum, but I don't hear hum with any of my cans with Elise, so far, except two of my 6 EL3N's do have a quiet non-intrusive hum, only with the HD598 and X2.


----------



## richdytch

connieflyer said:


> Tried  the K-R vt 231 black glass as drivers and the EL3N's as powers fub it did not have enough umphh for me. Nice clear sound though.  Put the EL3N's back as drivers and GE 5998A  Gold Aero Premium Series as powers,  now this is really nice.  I am thinking better (slightly) than the TS 5998's close call but am liking them very much, a little stronger in the mid-range lots of bass and treble. Got carried away and started playing air guitar, glad I am alone, would have been embarrasing, plus Shelby Lynne may have to quit singing and be replaced by me (yeah right!)




I know what you mean about the combo lacking slam. I sometimes feel the same, other times not. One thing I've found is that EL3N definitely let's the characteristics of whatever driver tube you're using show through... far more than the others I've tried. I did read somewhere that el3n has way less 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion than many tubes, so it could be that it just complicates situations less, because it adds less of its own character.

I'm envious btw, my air guitar skills are none existent.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> I know what you mean about the combo lacking slam. I sometimes feel the same, other times not. One thing I've found is that EL3N definitely let's the characteristics of whatever driver tube you're using show through... far more than the others I've tried. I did read somewhere that el3n has way less 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion than many tubes, so it could be that it just complicates situations less, because it adds less of its own character.
> 
> I'm envious btw, my air guitar skills are none existent.


 
  
 This fits entirely with the way the EL3N powers have allowed me, for the first time, to appreciate the legendary bass of those Ken-Rad VT231's we were discussing yesterday.
  
 It's a shame about your hum because using the double EL3N's per channel gives me that extra power, slam and oomph, that was a bit lacking with my single tube set-up. (I had described it before as lacking volume, but you and CF have described it much more accurately than I did)


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, great song from a great album.
> ...


 
 Ha ha...I have done this a few times.
  
 Here are a couple more you might like....glad you are enjoying the blues and the Led Zep album you just bought is a great album.


----------



## HOWIE13

My daughter's partner played me this video when he came round this morning - well what can I say!


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> I have another which is an Azdam and another which looks like Neotron. I think I read, maybe it was your own post, that some were made in France.




Don't know about France. Entirely possible of course.




howie13 said:


> Apologies this is all coming out in bits and bobs but on the Neutron one there is a code 1-56. Could that be January 1956 or a factory code maybe?




Probably a date. 1956 seems plausible.




connieflyer said:


> MS12 A4B on the tubes. The two from tubecenter are also a little shorter by about a quarter of an inch.  Don't know where these would have been manufactured.  Any thoughts?




The _A_ says Vienna, Austria.




oskari said:


> I'm pretty lost with them codes until we see enough of them.







howie13 said:


> Codes are so confusing, especially when they are encrypted.




I didn't quite say what I meant to say. I mostly understand the Philips-style codes but I haven't seen enough of them on EL3Ns to get the EL3N story.


----------



## connieflyer

I probably was not clear, as I have seen lately my brain says one thing and my fingers do what they feel like!  What I meant to say was MS12 A4B on all the tubes same code, if that is what it is, the ones from Holland and the ones from the "other " place.  I re-read this so even I am not confused any more!


----------



## Oskari

Now I'm confused.  I need coffee.


----------



## connieflyer

I just finished a pot of coffee and am still confused!


----------



## HOWIE13

I didn't think to look underneath this Adzam tube yesterday but have just removed it from the adapter and there is a code on the underside, what looks like '2G' and maybe something else printed before that, perhaps a number 1, but it's partially obscured by the connector.
  
 Don't know if this helps but maybe adds to the data bank for future reference. Cheers
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
 .


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Don't know if this helps but maybe adds to the data bank for future reference. Cheers




Thanks.




>




And now I'm even more confused, and the coffee isn't helping. This is not the Philips code I'm familiar with. Well, 2G could be the date code part of it.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Thanks.
> And now I'm even more confused, and the coffee isn't helping. This is not the Philips code I'm familiar with. Well, 2G could be the date code part of it.


 
  
 Well I'll see if a good whisky with Sunday lunch will give me any inspirational thoughts.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Well I'll see if a good whisky with Sunday lunch will give me any inspirational thoughts.




The concealed character could be the factory code. _1_ would be Eindhoven.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> The concealed character could be the factory code. _1_ would be Eindhoven.


 
  
 Thanks, I never thought to look underneath the tubes. I've looked at the others and there's an old Philips 'Miniwatt' with the code L7 printed in white just like the other one.
 I wonder if L is another factory code.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Thanks, I never thought to look underneath the tubes. I've looked at the others and there's an old Philips 'Miniwatt' with the code L7 printed in white just like the other one.
> I wonder if L is another factory code.




That would be MBLE (Adzam) in Brussels.

On the other hand, the tubes might antedate the 1948 coding system.


----------



## connieflyer

Of the 8 tubes that I have 6 were stamped made in Holland 2 do not have anything on them as far as where they're made. None of the eight tubes have any writing on the bottom of the base of the tubes. The six that are made from stamped made in Holland only have a white star I assume it's to designate the orientation of the tube. YouTube not stamped made in Holland have nothing on the bass of the tube.


----------



## UntilThen

All those codes will reveal where the hidden gold train is in Poland. Study it carefully.
  
 Mine says MS12 A4A / MS12 A4B
  
 I've reasons to believe they are manufactured in the 60s.
  
 MS = EL3N 
  
    A  = Wiener Radio Werke “WIRAG”, Wien 
  
 The rest... who knows... too early in the morning to worry about it.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> That would be MBLE (Adzam) in Brussels.
> 
> On the other hand, the tubes might antedate the 1948 coding system.


 
  
 Fascinating tubes. I wouldn't be surprised if it pre-dates 1948 as it came from a pile of stuff from an old abandoned house sale.
  
 They seem well burned-in and don't hum at all but I don't know what equipment they came out of, unfortunately.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> All those codes will reveal where the hidden gold train is in Poland. Study it carefully.
> 
> Mine says MS12 A4A / MS12 A4B
> 
> ...




Yes, and A = WIRAG, Vienna, Austria.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for the reference about before the dinosaurs, now I really feel old


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Here are a couple more you might like....glad you are enjoying the blues and the Led Zep album you just bought is a great album.


 
  
 Sat through the 2 videos and loving it. Took me a while to 'discover' Joe Bonamassa but this is great blues. I'm listening with modded HD650. It's kind of hit it right with these type of music. I can only imagine how exciting your soon to arrive ZMF Omni will sound with blues. They look good too. What finish did you get?


----------



## UntilThen

Proud to have our Jimmy Barnes. Here in collaboration with Joe, Deep Purple never sounded so good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 On a modded HD650 and Elise, it's awesome.
  
 Joe and the keyboardist are using AKG headphones. AKG812? 
  
 
  
 Wow beautiful just beautiful. Go Jimmy !!!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm going to practice this in the shower. It's not too late to make singing a career. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 

_When I get home I found you sleeping
 I said the words you know are true
 And I'm stone
 Stone cold in love with you_

_You don't have to turn the light on
 Ain't had more than just a few
 And I'm stone
 I'm stone cold in love with you_

_You don't have to wonder why now
 Look at all the things you've been to me
 I'll build my whole life on the sweet foundation
 You've given, baby you know what I mean_

*I left my friends back in the poolroom
 They'll still be drowning out the blues
 I'm stone
 I'm stone cold in love with you*

_You don't have to wonder why
 Look at all the things you've been
 My heart lies on the sweet foundation
 You've given, baby you know what I mean_

_I see your face below the window
 I see the moonlight coming through
 And I'm stone
 I'm stone cold in love with you
 Yes I'm stone
 I'm stone cold in love with you_


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys.
  
 Thought I'd finished with "Midnight Missives" after mini (maxi, even!) shocks from Elise plus associated goodies..._*but here goes!...*_
  
 Having run on quite a few times about the need for decent mains power supply to either be free from nasties or gain the best out of our systems, I finally decided to take the advice of an old (young!) friend from my LittleDot Rolling Guide days - Acapella11 - and treated myself to a mains "regenerator"...a mains 'what'?, I hear you say...what on Earth for?! Haven't time at the moment for explanation, I'm afraid...should be in bed really by now, lol!
  
 Anyway, just as I thought I really had tweaked Elise to the max with my setup - including quite a nice Tacima mains conditioner/filter to help things along - this "PowerInspired AG500 AC Mains Regenerator" has once again brought jaw-dropping, spine-tingling/shivering amazement to my door...or, rather, _*ears/brain*_ of course!
  
 Can only give a brief impression right now, but apart from the added benefit of almost totally removing slight traces of external trafo hum from a couple of pieces of equipment, somehow or other this beast - and it is indeed quite a beast! - is doing things I never would have believed to an already wonderful sound...viz. even greater clarity, micro-detail, dynamics just for starters. There's a sweetness to the treble I have never had before to such a degree with _any_ tube used...and the shimmer, sustain, decay of top-end percussion is too delicious for words. Bass goes deeper, with more control, detail, impact... and as with the rest of the FR, delivered with impeccable timing, fluidity, precision and speed. Holographic soundstage hardly covers it...the interplay between L & R channels has never been so intoxicating...this is a level of performance that I never expected from "just" playing around with the mains power supply. And all this after only 6hrs' burn-in!! I simply cannot believe it...and feel real guilty for ever doubting A11's judgment...(should have known better, as his young ears were easily about the best of all the guys on that very popular and successful LD thread!!).
  
 Anyway, past my zzzzzzzzz time, so just a couple of links for anyone interested.....and a photo of the beast - (I thought my Tacima was a fair size but it's simply _dwarfed_ by the AG500 - 19" x 17", and weighing nearly *38lbs!!*)...
  

  
  
http://www.powerinspired.com/ag500-ac-regenerator-500w-with-pwm-fan-control-p-1811.html
  
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/672988/power-inspired-ag500-power-regenerator-review
  
 G'night folks....will now _try _to get some sleep LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## lukeap69

oskari said:


> Now I'm confused.  I need coffee.




Did you say coffee? How about cafe latte?  This my daily doze of caffeine.


----------



## connieflyer

Looks too nice to drink!


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> Was it the CV ones you bought?


 
 Yup - I was actually unsure which Mullard 6080 version to get and just went for the one with a shinier chrome top, and sure enough it just so happened to be the 6080/CV2984 version you recommended. So Howie is this one of your favorite tubes, or which one is your favorite?
  
 Also I'm not completely closing the books on tube dampeners. I'm under the impression that each dampening material can effect the tubes in different ways. Which brand / type did you use? And RE it being 'worthless', was that as in making no difference, or worsening the sound?


----------



## DecentLevi

H1, that power regenerator sounds like a must have! May I ask what is the purpose of also having a power conditioner? And would you mind taking another photo of the back configuration, and a photo of where it's situated among your setup?
  
 Also I think it may be worth doing an A/B test with & without the power conditioners / regenerator to see whether or not it's a placebo effect


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Yup - I was actually unsure which Mullard 6080 version to get and just went for the one with a shinier chrome top, and sure enough it just so happened to be the 6080/CV2984 version you recommended. So Howie is this one of your favorite tubes, or which one is your favorite?
> 
> Also I'm not completely closing the books on tube dampeners. I'm under the impression that each dampening material can effect the tubes in different ways. Which brand / type did you use? And RE it being 'worthless', was that as in making no difference, or worsening the sound?


 
 Hi DL
  
 Yes that Mullard is a favourite tube but as to what my most favourite tube is I can't answer you with any honesty because it changes from day to day according to what I'm listening to.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My ears are still in a bit of a spin with tube rolling Elise because  just about every tube sounds so good. That Mullard is very clean, smooth, warm and clear and excels in detail, imaging and sound-stage.
  
 It suits my instrumental music perfectly. I think you will like it. Mine are very quiet too.
  
 As for the rings-I used them about 2 years ago on Horizon and Ember and was so disappointed that they made no difference to anything they claim to do I chucked them out. Mind you they were not expensive but I can't remember where I got them from. If I trawl through my Amazon and ebay accounts I may find them. Will let you know if I spot them.


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
 Hi H1
  
 You must have a stronger back than mine to have been able to lug that around your house to position it- or did you hire a trolley and hoist? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Seriously though, it looks interesting and not so expensive in the grand design of things.
  
 Do you think it will work so well on all mains supplies or only those most affected by noise etc?
  
 Would I hear the fan using open cans?
  
 Finally, I would need to check how much it would cost for me to return if it did nothing special for me- probably more than its cost to purchase.


----------



## Oskari

lukeap69 said:


> Did you say coffee? How about cafe latte?  This my daily doze of caffeine.




That'll do nicely. And now I need coffee again.

Ah:


----------



## Spork67

One of my favourite tracks from an album from the early 70's that has aged really well: 

  
  
 (I have the CD ripped to FLAC and it sounds a lot better than the you-tube version).
  
 20 Years after that he was still making some great music.


----------



## Spork67

Oops, sorry about the double post - was figuring out how to embed instead of just link.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Here are a couple more you might like....glad you are enjoying the blues and the Led Zep album you just bought is a great album.
> ...


 
 I listened to a lot of the blues using the Senn HD650.
  
 I have owned it two times now and at some point I would not doubt that I will own it again.
  
 I am looking forward to listening with the ZMF Omni, but that will not be for like five weeks or so, I imagine.
  
 I ordered mine in the Ormosia Henryi wood.
  


untilthen said:


> Proud to have our Jimmy Barnes. Here in collaboration with Joe, Deep Purple never sounded so good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Really enjoyed both videos very much.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, there are a lot of AKG headphones in the first video.
  
 I owned a pair of AKG 702 headphones, I liked them , they had a great sound stage and I found them very comfy, even though many say the bumps on the headband bother them, I did not have any issues with the bumps.


----------



## HOWIE13

I use K702 a lot. Bought it to replace my blown up K701, which was very picky about what music it would sound good with, though when it was good it was really good.
  
 Anyway, the K702 is the headphone that brings me the most detail, without over bright treble, and the latest iteration has no bumps on the headband and is very reasonably priced.
  
 I actually prefer it to the K712, which many prefer, but I find the K712 doesn't engage with me so well- still a very good headphone of course, just my preference.


----------



## whirlwind

howie13 said:


> I use K702 a lot. Bought it to replace my blown up K701, which was very picky about what music it would sound good with, though when it was good it was really good.
> 
> Anyway, the K702 is the headphone that brings me the most detail, without over bright treble, and the latest iteration has no bumps on the headband and is very reasonably priced.
> 
> I actually prefer it to the K712, which many prefer, but I find the K712 doesn't engage with me so well- still a very good headphone of course, just my preference.


 
 +1 on the price.
  
 Very reasonably priced and very well made also, cables were extra long, but that was not a deal breaker.


----------



## HOWIE13

whirlwind said:


> +1 on the price.
> 
> Very reasonably priced and very well made also, cables were extra long, but that was not a deal breaker.


 
  
 I was a bit concerned when I realised the newer version, without the bumps, is made in China, and not Austria as was formerly the case, but I shouldn't have been worried. Anyway, my Senns are both made in China too, so the AKG's are in good company.


----------



## pctazhp

Very nice combo: Visseaux 6A6G/TS 5998


----------



## tonykaz

Howie13 on Chord,
  
 Hello Scotland,
  
 Am I reading you to now own a Mojo? Hmm, that device is a DAC, isn't it?  It's taking the Audio Worlds by Storm, I'm reading.
  
 Somehow, it seems to have enough power to operate most headphones, they say.   
  
 I hope you find a way to report it's performance, here on Felikes.  Digging around the Mojo site would be like navigating Heathrow. 
  
 Besides,  you rollers seem to have a acceptance and recognition of various sonic qualities, vs. most of the other sites seeming to be reports from "Fan-boys" touting their latest impulse-buy.
  
 When I first saw the Mojo ( and the other Chord stuff ) I'd thought it to be "Bait" for Audiophiles,  those colors and fancy shapes, very, hmm, different.  I wondered if the mojo was an ODac in a cute little box.  Reviewers treat the Chord Stuff the way the Press promoted the LINN LP-12 ( which I sold scads of, along with plenty of other Brit. Tables including the rare Pink Triangle ).  
  
 By the way, I love the Brit. stuff, including the Active Meridian Loudspeakers ( I've even owned the gigantic M10 ).  I'm an Active Speaker lover, as a result, to this day, after 35 years of experience with that design feature!  I also liked the Quad Electronics designs ( the speakers not so much, even though I sold hundreds of the 63s ).
  
 I suppose that I'm hoping the Mojo to be as good as the reports I'm reading and I'm hoping the Focal Elear & Utopia are deserving of the Raves.
  
 All the Best, 
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## richdytch

@tonykaz @Howie13 +1  for the Chord stuff. I was after an upgrade from my Arcam rDAC and after mulling over some devices which were a _bit _better than the rDAC, purchased a Chord 2qute without audition - with the idea of selling it on as new straight away if I didn't like it. I was generally skeptical about the potential benefit of upgrading a DAC. The Chord turned out to be a very big step up from the Arcam, in terms of detail, resolution, transparency, authority. Nowdays when I compare the two, the Arcam (which used to seem ok) sounds flat, murky and lifeless. I've still not got around to mentioning this to some of my skeptical friends


----------



## pctazhp

tonykaz said:


> I suppose that I'm hoping the Mojo to be as good as the reports I'm reading and *I'm hoping the Focal Elear & Utopia are deserving of the Raves.*
> 
> All the Best,
> 
> Tony in Michigan


 
 I really hope they are horrible so I don't have to stop listening to my HD800S


----------



## mordy

Came across two funny items this morning - maybe it will bring a smile to your face:
  
 First, this cough syrup is guaranteed to enhance your listening experience:
  




  
 Wonder what the other ingredients are...
  
 Here is a new definition of a floating ground:
  




  
 And this reminder not to push you opinion on somebody else, if ever so gently...


----------



## Oskari

FYRP, an opinion on 'the "guts" of the Elise':

http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/microzotl2-tube-headphone-amp-and-preamp-a-breakthrough-device/2025#post_12840985


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Very nice combo: Visseaux 6A6G/TS 5998


 
  
 I really like those big 6A6's. 
  
 Some time ago, can't trace when, I made a note they were clean, cool and clear as drivers and paradoxically warm sounding as power tubes in Elise.
  
 Trouble is I don't know what the accompanying tubes were, but it won't have been 5998's as I didn't have them way back.
  
 Nice combo you've discovered there.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> FYRP, an opinion on 'the "guts" of the Elise':
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/microzotl2-tube-headphone-amp-and-preamp-a-breakthrough-device/2025#post_12840985


 
  
 HAHA. Just been onto that thread via your link and I see loads of familiar names from this thread are viewing just now.
  
 Well I'm sure it's not the first time I've seen a picture of the insides of Elise but can't just now remember where.
  
 The guy is guessing Elise's sound is ' romantic', but surely it depends on the tubes. With Raytheon or Thomson 6080 powers and C3g's as drivers Elise sounds anything but vintage romantic and picks up everything, warts and all, in the recording. It just depends on the tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> HAHA. Just been onto that thread via your link and I see loads of familiar names from this thread are viewing just now.
> 
> Well I'm sure it's not the first time I've seen a picture of the insides of Elise but can't just now remember where.
> 
> The guy describes Elise's sound as' romantic', but surely it depends on the tubes. With Raytheon 6080 powers and C3g's as drivers Elise sounds anything but vintage, romantic and picks up everything, warts and all, in the recording. It just depends on the tubes.


 
 I'm probably one of those you saw ))  I am so tempted to respond to that idiot. He speculated on the resolving power of the Elise without apparently never ever having heard it. But given my penchant for shooting first and thinking later (that I share with a certain unnamed presidential candidate) I'm going to cool off for a while. Suffice it to say for now that my respect for Mojo is at rock bottom.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I'm probably one of those you saw ))  I am so tempted to respond to that idiot. He speculated on the resolving power of the Elise without apparently never having heard it. But given my penchant for shooting first and thinking later (that I share with a certain unnamed presidential candidate) I'm going to cool off for a while. Suffice it to say for now that my respect for Mojo is at rock bottom.


 
  
 Guessing how an amp sounds by a photograph. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Well if that is the case we would never have to audition any amps or go to exhibitions. We could just sit in our arm chairs at home (with a suitable beverage) and watch a slide show.


----------



## Oskari

Bit of HEMS action in the neighbourhood tonight.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> H1, that power regenerator sounds like a must have! May I ask what is the purpose of also having a power conditioner? And would you mind taking another photo of the back configuration, and a photo of where it's situated among your setup?
> 
> Also I think it may be worth doing an A/B test with & without the power conditioners / regenerator to see whether or not it's a placebo effect


 
  
 Hi DL...must admit I never regarded such a thing as "must have" but boy, has my opinion changed LOL! I'm happy to see the points I touched on previously are spot on with a headmania review I found while looking for a photo of the rear - so your best bet is to take a look via the link, which also gives a more in-depth description of results : https://headmania.org/2013/09/02/power-inspired-ag500-power-regenerator-review/
 I have to admit I've never before related so fully to someone else's review of _anything!!_





...and has convinced me to not even try an A/B test - the logistics are simply too much hassle, given what lurks behind my equipment rack, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I did in fact perform as close a similar comparison as is possible by priming myself beforehand with several of my most familiar test pieces, that I have heard literally _hundreds _of times and can spot variation from 'average' very quickly. My first gut response is what I go by as to whether deeper analysis is warranted - if I get a "what's this?" reaction, I know straight away it warrants further investigation...for better or worse!! And when there are _multiple_ "what's this" that urge me to continue rather than halt there and then, I'm already fairly sure something good is going on. And this is what happened to a degree I really wasn't expecting...no placebo here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and further analysis confirmed just what were "what are these?", as I described before and are covered more fully in the review links I have posted.
 I am still in awe of the difference this piece of equipment has made to what I considered a sound already about at its peak for my own gear, and at what I consider an unbelievably low price - especially given the competition...
  
 This regenerator is _in place of_ the conditioner/filter, not as an addition. Not only does it give full protection to one's equipment and "regenerate" the mains from (in my case) a 240V supply that peaks to 246+V into a steady 230V (which I prefer for any system designed around a 220 to 240V spec.), but it manages somehow to bring a whole host of other benefits...truly amazing IMHO...
  
 A pic for you ...

  
 The unit sits atop my Heybrook TT...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!
  


howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> Hi H1
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo H13...VERY heavy LOL!!!
  
 Can't say whether everyone would notice improvements to the same degree, but given I never thought myself as having particularly nasty mains I'm sure _most_ people would actually gain benefit.
  
 And yes...incredibly good price for such a piece of kit - unbelievable actually!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 This model now has fan speed control, which is totally inaudible at its lower settings - which seem to be quite enough for _modestly_ powered equipment. Even at full throttle it is not really loud...
  
 Not sure about returns cost, but depends on carrier of course...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...hopefully not _too_ much!...


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1 220V to 240V ???? Won't do me any good, at least for now


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Howie13 on Chord,
> 
> Hello Scotland,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Tony and greetings from Scotland,
  
 I wanted a small DAC/AMP with optical and coaxial as well as USB inputs so I'm trying out Mojo.
  
 I'm impressed with the DAC.. It does what I want. No line-out but you just use one of the two headphone out sockets. It delivers a solid, punchy, clear, slightly warm of neutral sound and it's totally silent. 
  
 As an amp it's sound is very good, as above, but it can't create the sense of scale and weighty authority of Elise and doesn't have a vast sound-stage- just average I would say.
  
 The coloured buttons are cute and fun but, personally I would have preferred a conventional vol control. It does go loud- it has a very low output impedance so works for low impedance in ears, and is dynamic sounding, engaging me much more than the O2 opamp. It's got a default 'line out' pre-set level of 3V, which is rather high, but you just manually lower the level if need-be with the buttons.
  
 It's pricey but solidly built and overall sounds an expensive piece of kit. There's good discussion on DIYAH as well.
  
 I'm keeping it-recommended if it does the things you want.
  
 As for Quad- my first amp was a 33/303, way back in the early '70's. I went to the Quad headquarters to pick it up- just a hut in a field at that time.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi DL...must admit I never regarded such a thing as "must have" but boy, has my opinion changed LOL! I'm happy to see the points I touched on previously are spot on with a headmania review I found while looking for a photo of the rear - so your best bet is to take a look via the link, which also gives a more in-depth description of results : https://headmania.org/2013/09/02/power-inspired-ag500-power-regenerator-review/
> I have to admit I've never before related so fully to someone else's review of _anything!!_
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H1
  
 Tried to get a quote from Royal Mail/Parcel Force and it's too big for them to carry in their vans. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
  
 Well I suppose it could double-up as a floor-standing paper weight if I didn't like it. LOL.


----------



## mordy

One of my grandsons was over the other day and saw my turntable. What's that? he asked. I told him it was a record player. So he asked me: Do you have one of those gigantic CDs?
  
 Puts things in perspective.
  
 Hi h1,
  
 Looked up your regenerator - does not seem to be available for 110V.....Come to think of it, is there a difference in electronic grunge using 110V vs 220V?


----------



## pctazhp

I'm bummed ((( In order to get my mind off Mojo I decided to look for some pictures of my audiophile system from way back. I couldn't find a single picture!!! But I did find a picture of my dog and rabbit from 10 years ago, so I'll just post it instead.
  

  
 @UntilThen. Don't show this picture to your Dobermans and scare them!!!


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> FYRP, an opinion on 'the "guts" of the Elise':
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/microzotl2-tube-headphone-amp-and-preamp-a-breakthrough-device/2025#post_12840985


 

 I've seen Elise and I've heard her.... let's say more than once in a the last 10 months and I'm 'guessing'  she sounds absolutely marvelously wonderful. Pretty good guess huh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It's true that the 'other' forum did not think too much of the Zolt2 while Elise have a 'very' favorable review. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I once tried to tell the local community here about Elise. There was one guy who have not seen Elise nor heard her says, "I think she's not optimized'. Hahaha if you close your mind and put on the biased hat, you're going to miss the good stuff.
  
 Here's some good Aussie talent and a very young Jimmy Barnes and one of my fav song.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Thanks H1
> 
> Tried to get a quote from Royal Mail/Parcel Force and it's too big for them to carry in their vans.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah H13...would need to be one of the "alternative" carriers, to be sure!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but to be honest, at that price (or a good deal more, lol!), I'm sure paper weight would _not_ be on the menu!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


mordy said:


> One of my grandsons was over the other day and saw my turntable. What's that? he asked. I told him it was a record player. So he asked me: Do you have one of those gigantic CDs?
> 
> Puts things in perspective.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed, m...every time I look at my TT it brings back memories of times _*long*_ gone LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and even back then I got tired of surface noise, clicks, pops, meticulous cleaning, zero-stating, stylus changes, up/down to change the record etc. etc.! Now I have Elise, Oppo BDP103, tube DAC,T1s  and AG500 these memories come back to haunt me, so I'm afraid my Heybrook will probably go back in the attic, alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...can't really blame youngsters of today!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And yes...shame the AG500/1500 is only for 220/240V mains - but I dread to think of the international shipping cost for this beast!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...it sure is a GREAT price though IMHO...
  
 Don't know if 110/120V mains is any "quieter" than 220/240V, but as the likes of Psaudio also make these things, I suspect similar gains can be had with the lower voltage systems...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I've seen Elise and I've heard her.... let's say more than once in a the last 10 months and I'm 'guessing'  she sounds absolutely marvelously wonderful. Pretty good guess huh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Often when I read other threads and so many stupid, shallow posts, I remember how grateful I am for our 2 Elise threads and our members.
  
 Great video. It's also one of my favorite songs.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh wow I'm visibly moved listening to this. Jimmy's a legend. @HOWIE13 he has Scottish ancestry. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
  
 ...and this. An even younger Jimmy.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Checked the PS Audio regenerator listings - between $2500 - $5000. Looks like u got a real bargain....
  
 Here is an interesting link for a used unit - seller states he is selling it because his current amp does not benefit from it.
  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PS-Audio-Power-Plant-Premier-AC-Regenerator-/232068052077?hash=item360855746d:g:YTgAAOSwxg5XyLVc


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1 220V to 240V ???? Won't do me any good, at least for now


 
  
 Once again pct, your wallet - and family! - can breathe easy LOL...but yes..._*for how much longer, lol?!!! *_





...(hoping my own can now do so as well - perhaps there is after all something in...*"IT NEVER ENDS!!!"*











...


----------



## pctazhp

I sincerely believe YouTube represents the internet at its very best. Without it countless performances and memories would have been lost to us forever.


----------



## UntilThen

All this talk of power conditioner. I'm thinking of generating my own clean power by installing one of this in my backyard. I think it will be cool.


----------



## pctazhp

I know there aren't many country fans here, and I already posted this a while back in the other thread, but I can't help myself


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> All this talk of power conditioner. I'm thinking of generating my own clean power by installing one of this in my backyard. I think it will be cool.


 
  But will make moving your lawn much more difficult 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry, inside joke for the old timers here.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> But will make moving your lawn much more difficult
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Don't you forget Australia invented the lawn mover. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  and it's mower ... this editor needs to be sacked.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Checked the PS Audio regenerator listings - between $2500 - $5000. Looks like u got a real bargain....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo mordy...it does seem - as with most things electrical/electronic - there are those occasional exceptions to the rule, for whatever reason. But the fors appear to outnumber the againsts, lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Mind you, I'm afraid I wouldn't want to pay anything like the $$$$ you quoted!...but at £249 (with free shipping here) for the AG500 it really is a no-brainer...going by my own personal experience, that is...(not to mention Acapella11, who put me on to it in the first place, and who is _way_ ahead of most of us in the sound assessment arena! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). A great shame indeed this unit is not available in your neck of the woods...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## connieflyer

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Checked the PS Audio regenerator listings - between $2500 - $5000. Looks like u got a real bargain....
> 
> ...


 
 this unit is 7 years old, if you could get it cheap enough, maybe, batterries are nearing end of life, plus you dont know if it ever took a power failure or lighting strike, those are not good for MOV s. For a couple of hundred you could get a good ups from amazon as that would also protect your source, dacs, and Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> All this talk of power conditioner. I'm thinking of generating my own clean power by installing one of this in my backyard. I think it will be cool.


 
  
 Hey UT, no amount of tweaking would ever rid you of the _whooosh, whooosh_ I'm afraid lol!!...but by all means give it a go!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(bet one of those costs more than £249!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).


----------



## connieflyer

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00429N19W/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=24ZD1S4SRVVZ8&coliid=ICBJGP9V2BUSH&psc=1


----------



## pctazhp

Ahhhh)) Now I feel better  http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/microzotl2-tube-headphone-amp-and-preamp-a-breakthrough-device/2025#post_12841599


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Ahhhh)) Now I feel better  http://www.head-fi.org/t/771234/microzotl2-tube-headphone-amp-and-preamp-a-breakthrough-device/2025#post_12841599


 

 You just shattered his guesswork and ruined his day. Poor guy.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. richdytch & 2Qute,
  
 I guess there's something to this Rob designer fella.  
  
 I have not heard of anyone being un-impressed with that Chord stuff, yet.  
  
 Now, I'm waiting on H13 to settle-in  ( which Chord says takes a bit of time for the brain to adjust ), although he already seems pleased.  
  
 I'm imagining that if he goes strongly positive and reports it, this whole group will be posting their DACs on Ebay within a few weeks time. Betcha everyone has way more than $500 invested in various DACs ( now kinda retired but acting as back-ups, god forbid ) .   
  
 You mentioning the 2Qute had me doing a quick tour of the Chord Web site.  They have an impressive Range of stuff, all styled like no other Audio gear I've ever seen, phew! and Pricy. 
  
 Thanks for writing,
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You just shattered his guesswork and ruined his day. Poor guy.


 
 There are thousands and thousand of posts here on HeadFi regarding Schiit products. I don't recall ever seeing anyone associated with Schiit Audio making derogatory comments like that about another product - especially something they had never heard. What really bothered me was his comment: 
*they are marketed toward the customer that wants to "hear no evil" and cover up the flaws in their music, source, and headphones, as opposed to allowing them to hear whatever is actually on the recording (good, bad, or otherwise).*
  
 He can talk all he wants about his "ENGINEER" credentials. I suspect Jason Stoddard and Mike Moffat could wipe the floor with those credentials. But that aside, they certainly have far more class than to make statements like his.


----------



## connieflyer

He did not like my rely either,  Liked the next poster that would never consider wasting his time to listen to anything that cheap.  I have been flagged, to bad, I can live on!  Ah summertime in Farmington, so refreshing!!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> He did not like my rely either,  Liked the next poster that would never consider wasting his time to listen to anything that cheap.  I have been flagged, to bad, I can live on!  Ah summertime in Farmington, so refreshing!!


 
 It's all good fun


----------



## UntilThen

I wouldn't waste my time on their thread. Boof heads such as those thinks that for anything to sound good, it has to be super expensive.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. pztazhp & Focal,
  
 Hmm, should you be worried?, I think not!
  
 I'm a content Sennheiser man. Those 800s are superb, the 800S is said to be even better.  
  
 Still, Todd the Vinyl Junkie TTVJ promised to help me own some of these new Focals, as they become available ( I'm in no hurry ).
  
 I wonder if you still use your Valhalla Amp?   and I also wonder why you seem to own both the Valhalla and the Felikes?  Both of these Amps seem to be the likely choices for someone buying a Rolling Amp.  I own stuff that I never use, so I suppose that I can understand a closet filled with past loves. ( I also have a few skeletons in mine, ouch! )  
  
Well, thanks for writing,
  
Tony in Michigan


----------



## UntilThen

I have to go to airport soon. Have a good one and I'll see yous all later. Perhaps my Cetron 7236 will arrive today.


----------



## UntilThen

tonykaz said:


> Mr. pztazhp & Focal,
> 
> Hmm, should you be worried?, I think not!
> 
> ...


 

 Tony, he has sold off his Valhalla as soon as he hears Led Zep on Elise.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> He did not like my rely either,  Liked the next poster that would never consider wasting his time to listen to anything that cheap.  I have been flagged, to bad, I can live on!  Ah summertime in Farmington, so refreshing!!







pctazhp said:


> It's all good fun




That escalated quickly. :rolleyes:




untilthen said:


> I wouldn't waste my time on their thread. Boof heads such as those thinks that for anything to sound good, it has to be super expensive.




Yup.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Tony, he has sold off his Valhalla as soon as he hears Led Zep on Elise.


 
 Well to correct the record, I still have my V2 but only because I'm too lazy to sell it. And now with the introduction of the Joty I suspect it is going down in value. But I never use it. It is a good amp for its price point, but I have no interest in using it. It simply is not the equal to the Elise.
  
 I'm not worried about any of this other than the principle involved. I love my system just the way it is.
  
 I know I need to let this go and I will. But I've been thinking about the industry giants I had the privilege of spending a lot of time with back in my audiophile days. They were John Curl, Richard Vandersteen, Jeff Rowland and Dave Wilson. They had varying backgrounds (Richard was a truck driver before he started Vandersteen Audio). They were all passionate about their craft and their own products. But I never once heard any of them badmouth a competitor OR speak derogatorily about the stupid slobs who bought their competitors' products.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> It's all good fun


 
 Yep- I've just asked him, as a man of science, what his evidence is for saying people only buy tube amps to hide defects in the rest of their system. Truly Unbelievable.


----------



## UntilThen

I'll trade some of my legacy tubes and lawn mower for your Valhalla 2.

...and a can of vegemite.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Yep- I've just asked him, as a man of science, what his evidence is for saying people only buy tube amps to hide defects in the rest of their system. Truly Unbelievable.




Such a nice attitude he has. :confused_face:


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.pztazhp & the V2,
  
 I was at a headphone meet, a good while back, listening to everything, including the Schiit Rag & Yggy ( which didn't dazzle ).  Everyone was lining up on a V2 ( including me ) to try out various headphones, that V2 was a Show-stealer, I bought a pair of Audeze phones based on what I heard.  The Audeze weren't anywhere close on my home system.  I later learned that the V2 was "juiced-up" with DG Russian tubes. Phew, it was beautiful, I should've tried to buy the Amp.  The DG Tubes were reported to have a cost of +/- $100 each.
  
 Sooooooo, I started hunting down Rolling sites which led me to Garage 1217, which led here!   Stoddard claims the V2 power supply is rather weak for Filament power, the Lyr would be a better option ( which is also a rolling Amp ), the Lyr2 has an even weaker power supply ( I'm told ).  
  
 That V2 is no slouch, if a person can find the "right" tubes and has mucho-dinero.   
  
 However, we, here, are lucky in that we can sail along in the Experienced Lad's wake and purchase what they happily report success with.  But, just now, I can't buy anything that won't either fit in my shirt pocket of my mouth.  That is, until I re-locate to Florida.  I'm swamped with getting my house ready for sale. 
  
 Thanks for writing about your V2 and Elise.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Such a nice attitude he has.


 
  
 He just doesn't get it that all we ask is he listen to equipment before making judgements and not say things that he can't substantiate.
  
 Actually, he's now deleted much of what he said. 
  
 That's kept me far too long away from music tonight. Will need to get up early tomorrow to make up Elise time.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. HOWIE13 & the Mojo,
  
 Thanks for writing,  
  
 I agree, I think, I like a traditional knob to buttons but the buttons do work and are colorful! 
  
 The Amp part is what I was wondering about, you seem to output to the Felikes ( question answered ).   Chord appear to be say'n the cute little thing hasn't an Amp!  So, how's it so darn powerful?   I guess the DAC has plenty of output energy. ( no Amp needed )  Hmm. 
  
 I went to the DIYAH site and kept being asked if I am human?   Didn't get any further, maybe I give up easily. 
  
 33/303  I love that old type of style, even the older Naim stuff. 
  
 From my vantage point, I'm seeing the Chord FPGA, Focal headphone transducer and the Audiophile rated LG V20 quad Dac Chipset phone capturing the future personal Audio marketplace. (2016-7). 
  
 Tony in Michigan
  
 ps.  I'd include the Felikes but it isn't mainstream.


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Mr. HOWIE13 & the Mojo,
> 
> Thanks for writing,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes Chord seem to have been consistently good. Mojo does go loud and easily drives my HE400 to louder than I can bear to listen to, 4.5V output max with only 0.075 ohm output impedance!
  
 As for DIYAH- I'll vouch that you are definitely human.


----------



## tonykaz

Human?  
  
 Thanks but how can you tell?, I mean, 4-sure? 
  
 I just discovered John LeCarre on YouTube Books, what lovely sentences.  "my wife's twinkling eyes" 
  
 Can I follow along and learn to wright such Prose? It'll help me when I run for President!  
  
 Chord has been consistently good,  that's good to know! 
  
 Thanks,
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'll trade some of my legacy tubes and lawn mower for your Valhalla 2.
> 
> ...and a can of vegemite.


 
 If the owner of my apartment building saw a lawn mower delivered to me he would expect me to join his maintenance crew - especially since he's a client and friend of mine and is sick of hearing me tell him how important I am!!!
  
 I asked my tube drawer about your legacy tubes and it had one comment: NO MORE TUBES!!!
  
 As for vegemite I googled it. Sounds horrible ((((
  
 You missed all the MicroZotl2 fun by going to the airport


----------



## connieflyer

Could not let you have all the fun, he attacked you needlessly. I don't take kindly to that.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Could not let you have all the fun, he attacked you needlessly. I don't take kindly to that.


 
 For sure I appreciated you help )))))


----------



## connieflyer

Elise"rs have to stick together especially when you are on the right side of common sense. He is just an independent non thinker, obsessed with his own self importance.


----------



## UntilThen

Proud of you guys. I can imagine some fireworks there. I would have brought my cannon. Unfortunately I have to see my brother and his family off at the airport as they return to Singapore.

As for vegemite, Popeye eats that. Look at his biceps.


----------



## aqsw

Seems like all the posts have been deleted on the zotl thread.. 
Very unprofessional conduct from a supposed pro.


----------



## UntilThen

Certainly not worthy of a reply from me. Now he's back pedaling. 
  
 Agree that it's unprofessional conduct. It's time to move on. Does not merit a second of our time. I'm not surprised all the posts are deleted.


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Human?
> 
> Thanks but how can you tell?, I mean, 4-sure?
> 
> ...


 
  
 We agree on a lot of things-you MUST be human, and high quality too.


----------



## Spork67

My HE-400i's arrived today.
 My first time with planar-magnetics - I like!
 Have only had a quick listen so far, I don't think they will replace the TH-X00s, but they should compliment them nicely.
  
 These are also a little higher impedance than the Fostex, 35 vs 25 ohm - and my hum is _almost_ gone! 
 At full volume it is still there, but considerably less than before.
 I don't hear any noise at all before about 3 - 3:30 o'clock, and if I were to listen at that volume I think I'd soon hear nothing at all ever!
  
 So, given that the Fostex are actually outside the design spec's for Elise, and the 400i's are just inside, I think it's safe to say that was the main cause of my "problem".


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> My HE-400i's arrived today.
> My first time with planar-magnetics - I like!
> Have only had a quick listen so far, I don't think they will replace the TH-X00s, but they should compliment them nicely.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's brilliant news. I have the HE400 and I find it very quiet. For instance, with Horizon and Ember I had hum with most cans from 6A6 tubes but never a sound from the HE400.


----------



## UntilThen

Congrats Sporky. Now get a T1 G2 or a HD800 for a totally hum free experience. Having said that, my HE560 is quiet with Elise at ALL volume.
  
@tjw321  still waiting on your feedback with your new T1 G2. Too engrossed listening to music I supposed.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> Congrats Sporky. Now get a T1 G2 or a HD800 for a totally hum free experience. Having said that, my HE560 is quiet with Elise at ALL volume.
> 
> @tjw321  still waiting on your feedback with your new T1 G2. Too engrossed listening to music I supposed.


 
 Amazon have brand new T1G1 for $629.
 I'm doing my best to resist.
 You are not helping...


----------



## connieflyer

Have been trying different tube combos using the gold aero 5998A's very interesting.  I prefer the 5998A's over the T-S 5998's so far. I liked both tubes with the EL3N's but going with just the 5998a's as powers, tried the Visseaux 7n7g's, not as resolving as the El3N and soundstage smaller more intimate, a little less treble, warm sounding. Tried the Siemnes C3G's this morning and was very pleased. It has the extended and clear treble and the warm mid range and solid bass with this combo.  Always liked the C3G, but found it almost too much treble. The 5998A bring everything to the table with the C3G's.  Great synergy., will try against the 6 pack when my replacement adapter gets here..


----------



## pctazhp

Just a quick check in. After our 3-day weekend and some spare time on my hands devoted to tube rolling and incurring the wrath of a mediator, I'm back to my preferred EL3N/GEC 6080 WA combo. The magic is still there, particularly after running it for about 30 minutes.
  
 Cheers everyone ))


----------



## connieflyer

Glad you're finally at peace again. Yeah I've been doing a lot of listening this weekend myself. First time ever been flagged on a forum. Kind of fun. Listening to the 5998A and theC3G combo snd really liking it. Will be selling my Tung Sol 5998s as with my system the 5998a sound better. I think we ruffled some feathers this weekend, nice to be involved, gets blood moving!


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm more and more impressed with the EL3N's as drivers. They seem to provide a lot of space and atmosphere to the sound, whatever power tubes I'm using they combine very well.
 I also have the feeling my new ones are not as 'musical' as the old ones I bought at an antique market. Just a question of burning in I guess.
  
 Maybe they don't have the drive and firm, well contained bass of C3g's but they're deliciously euphonic.
  
 PS Apologies, I have made three attempts to define my original description of the C3g's bass. I hope you know what I'm describing-not terribly eloquent of language this afternoon.


----------



## connieflyer

I agree about the EL3N, it is a great tube. Looking forward to my replacement adapter so I can get back to 6 pack


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I agree about the EL3N, it is a great tube. Looking forward to my replacement adapter so I can get back to 6 pack


 
  
 I thought the adapters wouldn't look very good in Elise but actually I think they blend in quite nicely.


----------



## hypnos1

OK guys...time for an update on my mains power "regenerator" - the PowerInspired AG500.
  
 Although this unit is, sadly, only for 220/240V mains, perhaps my own findings might just be of use/interest to _some_ out there...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  
 Now that it has a good few more hours on it - there's a whole load of stuff inside this beast lol! - I'm happy to confirm that my initial findings were most certainly not "placebo effect". Moving on to other pieces I have used _*many, many*_ times over the years for test purposes, I have had numerous instances of "what's this?", and "haven't heard this before"...to a degree that I have in fact hardly ever encountered before in all my tube/equipment rolling.
  
 This has truly been a revelation to me, as I was previously rather sceptical about the whole thing (as I mentioned before). But the more tracks I listen to, the more amazed I am. My previous comments, along with those in the reviews I posted links to previously, are now even _more_ evident...details and position of different sounds that were sometimes just _hinted_ at before are now crystal clear - they are both separate _and_ joined in a purely seamless fashion that I still cannot believe. The end result is a presentation that is pure honey, but _not_ one that is _over_-sweet!!..more like _smooth_ as honey. And this is not at the expense of top end 'sparkle' or tamed bass - the exact opposite, in fact. Precision, energy and impact are all there in abundance, and such that they allow me the luxury of being able to turn up the volume so as to enjoy even more detail and exciting, 'powerful' delivery without the ears having to suffer for my frivolous behaviour LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(normally this is only, of necessity, a short period of such bliss!!). This has always been one of my major tests as to the merits of a particular tube/piece of equipment.
  
 These results have, for me, firmly ratified a keen hi-fier's statement I read one time on this subject of mains power supplies...ie. that at all stages of signal amplification it is, of course, _electricity_ that is carrying said signal - ergo, its initial quality _must_ impact significantly upon the final resulting sound. This, presumably therefore, is the ethos behind such power "regenerators". All I know is that mine is indeed working wonders on what was already a _beautiful_ sound...as @mordy would say : *IF GOOD IS GOOD, ISN'T BETTER BETTER?!!...*CHEERS! mordy...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 No doubt the degree of such improvement will depend on individual mains supply and, as with any other individual element within a system, the capabilities of the entire setup... but this is turning out to be the *best* £249 I have spent so far on my system...(apart from my incredibly good luck in what I managed to get my GEC/Osram 6AS7G variants for...not to mention my ECC31s!).
  
 ps. One really happy chappie signing off!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CJ
  
 pps....Did I mention the _*blackest*_ background I have ever experienced, lol?...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## oshipao

hypnos1 said:


> OK guys...time for an update on my mains power "regenerator" - the PowerInspired AG500.
> 
> Although this unit is, sadly, only for 220/240V mains, perhaps my own findings might just be of use/interest to _some_ out there...:wink_face: ...
> 
> ...




hypnos1

I understand your exitement. One of the first things I did to my rig was to get a power regulator with built in fuse. Nothing fancy, standard Supra Lo-rad accompanied with shielded cables. I might add that this does add a quieter background, blackness whatever you may call it. It is a good foundation to build upon. I do think there is better to be acheived regardiing power related equipment, but in relative terms I am over my head.

Edit: I must add that cables does make a difference, not addding anything, but different cables seems to tame some frequencies and some does less in avery good way. Out.


----------



## Spork67

My Elise would have  about 70 - 80 hours run-time on her now. (I forgot to turn off on Friday night, after a few cold beverages)
 Finding it hard to believe the new HPs had made all the difference re: hum, I plugged the Fostex in, paused the music and cranked the volume.
 Hum all but absent!
 There is still a tiny amount at the very top end of the volume range, but nothing like I was getting even a couple of days ago.
 That last little bit of noise may disappear with more time - and it may not, either way I'll never have the volume knob anywhere near there with any source playing.
 Safe to say I am now a 110% happy Elise owner.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> My Elise would have  about 70 - 80 hours run-time on her now. (I forgot to turn off on Friday night, after a few cold beverages)
> Finding it hard to believe the new HPs had made all the difference re: hum, I plugged the Fostex in, paused the music and cranked the volume.
> Hum all but absent!
> There is still a tiny amount at the very top end of the volume range, but nothing like I was getting even a couple of days ago.
> ...


 

 Hahaha magic !!! I'm happy for you. 
  
 For a change, others are talking about the EL3N instead of @hypnos1 and me. I'll sit back and hear others impressions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps... tubes in Elise now are EL3N and Tung Sol 7236. The Cetron 7236 are still not here yet. !!!
  
 pss.. @connieflyer told me he's selling his nearly new 5998 at much lower than what he paid for because he prefers the 5998A. If you're looking for a good pair, give him a tinkle.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> *IF GOOD IS GOOD, ISN'T BETTER BETTER?!!...*CHEERS!.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I dare not touch my current black, silent and hum free, 'at any volume' setup ...  with any tubes ... in case I jinx it. 
  
 So yeah... it's perfect now.. no touching for me.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello all, I just got what I consider to be my first serious adapter-less tube for the Elise. Along with the Mullards which I've yet to receive, I also ordered this awesome pair of *Raytheon 6080's *(RCA rebranded I believe). The sound signature I'm getting is seductive, resolving, dynamic and velvety delicious.
  
 So far I've compared it to my GE 6AS7 GA and it makes the GE's sound soft, mid-bassy and artificial treble in comparison. I'm still comparing it to my dual 6BL7 + 6SN7 power combination, and it seems to have better dynamics and maybe slightly more 'focused'.
  
 I suspect these are actually RCA 6080's with a Raytheon label, because looking at a matched pair of RCA + Raytheon 6080, the internals are completely identical. I would strongly recommend this power tube especially for any new owners trying to see what the Elise can do for cheap - they were only $10 each! 
  
 EDIT: also these babies are completely hum-free, yet _oven _hot


----------



## DecentLevi

@whirlwind if you don't mind my asking, what on earth could you possibly be wanting an Elise for if you already have a Glenn OTL amp? 

  
 Or maybe our group will finally get to hear a comparison between the two...


----------



## aqsw

Weĺl after three days of listening with my Fioo x7 and Master nd Dynamics MW60 , I was thinking my portable unit ((1700 cdn) was as good as my home unit($5000.00cdn)
So I heated up the tubes on my home unit. 

Put Leonard Cohen on and listened to one of his albums two times on the portable system just so that I could get it in my head.
.
Plugged the Elise and tube dac in. Listned to Leonard again. Wow, The portsble gives about 80 %, but I'm very happy to pay the extra.
The Elise, Ether Cs, and Space Tech Labs dac are well worth it.


----------



## aqsw

My Cavalli Carbon is for sale. Never did like it, and gets no use.

I did get on the massdrop microzotl . Should be interesting.


----------



## DecentLevi

Edited my above post to be for Raytheon 6080's rather than Selectron... and WOW, these seem to shine even better with a little burn-in!


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> ...
> I wanted a small DAC/AMP with optical and coaxial as well as USB inputs so I'm trying out Mojo.
> 
> I'm impressed with the DAC.. It does what I want. *No line-out* but you just use one of the two headphone out sockets. It delivers a solid, punchy, clear, slightly warm of neutral sound and *it's totally silent*.
> ...


 
 No sound at all? That's a bloody shame, mate! 'Guess you must have to be high on something to 'hear' any sound
  
 And it has a line-out but there is none? ... oh no, I can't take any more oximorons in one sitting!
  
 ^^_ Nah, just being a moron with words, LOL!_ ^^
  
 Seriously though, I'm totally sold 'hook line & sinker' for the award-winning *Questyle QP1R* as my next DAP! I've auditioned it at two meets with several headphones, and this portable gem has the ability to make both on-ear and in-ear's shine with solid impact and first-class refinement / clarity - even good with full size 'cans too! It packs a class-A amp and boasts up to 10 hours of playtime, with almost 300 gig's max. storage size, and plays everything including DSD files natively!
 http://www.questyleaudio.com/product-qp1
  

  
  
 Saving the best for last, it also functions as a DAC and has a true line-out, meaning you can use this as a DAC with your PC while on the go, and connect it to either the likes of the Elise via line-out, or directly to headphones! Though it costs twice as much as the Mojo, I'd say it's worth it to also have full DAP functionality as well as an excellent DAC.
  

_I had a hard time finding the DAP in this photo - could you find it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 _


----------



## DecentLevi

connieflyer said:


> ... Will be selling my Tung Sol 5998s as with my system the 5998a sound better...


 
 Which 5998 type is that "A" type you're talking about???
  


hypnos1 said:


> Hi DL...must admit I never regarded such a thing as "must have" but boy, has my opinion changed LOL! I'm happy to see the points I touched on previously are spot on with a headmania review I found while looking for a photo of the rear - so your best bet is to take a look via the link, which also gives a more in-depth description of results : https://headmania.org/2013/09/02/power-inspired-ag500-power-regenerator-review/
> ...
> This regenerator is _in place of_ the conditioner/filter, not as an addition. Not only does it give full protection to one's equipment and "regenerate" ... but it manages somehow to bring a whole host of other benefits...truly amazing IMHO...
> ...


 
 Which other benefits does your power regenerator bring to your system?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hello all, I just got what I consider to be my first serious adapter-less tube for the Elise. Along with the Mullards which I've yet to receive, I also ordered this awesome pair of *Raytheon 6080's *(RCA rebranded I believe). The sound signature I'm getting is seductive, resolving, dynamic and velvety delicious.
> 
> So far I've compared it to my GE 6AS7 GA and it makes the GE's sound soft, mid-bassy and artificial treble in comparison. I'm still comparing it to my dual 6BL7 + 6SN7 power combination, and it seems to have better dynamics and maybe slightly more 'focused'.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Those Raytheon were the first 6080's I heard with Elise and do like them. I agree they make some others sound a bit soft/warm sounding in comparison but, eventually, I came to the conclusion that they were a very detailed, analytical tube, similar to Thomson and other tubes were more neutral in this respect. 
  
 They didn't pair well with my brighter cans but are very good with HD 598/650 and X2. Certainly very quiet and very hot, as you say. You need to be careful not to burn your fingers taking it out too quickly holding the metal base. I burned my fingers first time.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 'No sound at all? That's a bloody shame, mate! 'Guess you must have to be high on something to 'hear' any sound
  
 And it has a line-out but there is none? ... oh no, I can't take any more oximorons in one sitting!
  
 ^^_ Nah, just being a moron with words, LOL!_ ^^'
  
  
 Yes when I read through what I had written I did think it sounded a bit ambiguous. I think I was more moron than oxi that day.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Anyway Mojo is replacing my M-DAC. It sounds easily as good using CD as source and it's still totally 'silent'.  LOL.
  
 I wouldn't say Mojo has the euphony of a tube amp like Elise, Espressivo or G1217 amps,  but it definitely doesn't sound 'processed' like some SS amps can do. It uses a novel technology and it produces a delightful sound.


----------



## whirlwind

decentlevi said:


> @whirlwind if you don't mind my asking, what on earth could you possibly be wanting an Elise for if you already have a Glenn OTL amp?
> 
> 
> Or maybe our group will finally get to hear a comparison between the two...


 
 Hi DecentLevi.
  
 I do not want another OTL amp....I just frequent this thread as I listen to many of the same tubes as some of you and also because I love music and there are many nice videos posted here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I love to read about how some people here certain tubes, at times I hear the same thing and at times our views are far apart....but that is the great part about tube rolling....one mans trash is another mans treasure....lol
  
 If I decide to add another amp, it will be something other than another OTL.


----------



## UntilThen

I've always enjoy talking about tubes and blues with whirlwind.

That's the beauty of Head-Fi. I get to meet nice folks.


----------



## whirlwind

Yes indeed.
  
 I have met many nice folks on head-fi.
  
 The love of music is a wonderful thing.
  
 I try not to post too much in this thread, since I do not own an Elise, but I do understand the love for a great amp and I know that the Elise is a very fine amp.....I just love to hear peoples opinions on different tube combos.


----------



## rudra

I don't own a Elsie, but I frequent this thread often to hear people's opinions on different tube combos since the tubes used in Elise is similar to the LD MKVI+ or DV that I have.


----------



## connieflyer

decentlevi said:


> Which 5998 type is that "A" type you're talking about???
> 
> Which other benefits does your power regenerator bring to your system?


 
  These are the Gold Aero I am using.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/172262170880?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## UntilThen

rudra said:


> I don't own a Elsie, but I frequent this thread often to hear people's opinions on different tube combos since the tubes used in Elise is similar to the LD MKVI+ or DV that I have.


 

 Precisely. All are welcome here as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> These are the Gold Aero I am using.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/172262170880?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 

 Wish I had gotten a pair when it was still available. Now I can only guess how they sound. Looks good.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Precisely. All are welcome here as far as I'm concerned.


 
 Ditto


----------



## pctazhp

whirlwind said:


> Yes indeed.
> 
> I have met many nice folks on head-fi.
> 
> ...


 
 I for one enjoy your posts here. Hope you won't feel any need to limit your participation on this thread


----------



## hypnos1

oshipao said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> I understand your exitement. One of the first things I did to my rig was to get a power regulator with built in fuse. Nothing fancy, standard Supra Lo-rad accompanied with shielded cables. I might add that this does add a quieter background, blackness whatever you may call it. It is a good foundation to build upon. I do think there is better to be acheived regardiing power related equipment, but in relative terms I am over my head.
> 
> Edit: I must add that cables does make a difference, not addding anything, but different cables seems to tame some frequencies and some does less in avery good way. Out.


 
  
 Hi oshipao...indeed, I haven't been this excited since I managed to get the C3g and EL3N to work in Elise, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...er, correction - since I first opened a certain parcel from Poland!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 And yes, 'black' = _super_ quiet background! This quality certainly does help the clarity, details and soundstage enormously - just for starters! And there's another audiophile aspect that is highlighted by said 'blackness', along with the other clever tricks this regenerator manages to conjure...ie. _*layers*_ in the music. To me, this has always seemed a rather nebulous term - 'holographic', 3D soundstage with precise instrument/voice positioning I personally think can be related to more easily LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But this magic box of tricks has got me almost _feeling_ what could possibly be described as said 'layers'...more so than ever before. I suppose this falls into the category of the _emotional_ response, as opposed to _analytical_...Whatever, it is wonderfully seductive and has brought freshness anew to music I have heard countless times...I am well and truly hooked!  (@DecentLevi...these qualities, along with those I have already described previously (plus those in the reviews I linked) are what I meant by 'other benefits', lol!. I suppose there must be _slight_ benefit also from feeding Elise's trafo with 230V instead of 246+V, but probably not too significant!).
  
 I agree with you re. power cables as well - I firmly believe this whole subject of mains electricity supply is _*very*_ much underestimated by many in hi-fi land...I myself am now a_ totally_ committed convert...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


spork67 said:


> My Elise would have  about 70 - 80 hours run-time on her now. (I forgot to turn off on Friday night, after a few cold beverages)
> Finding it hard to believe the new HPs had made all the difference re: hum, I plugged the Fostex in, paused the music and cranked the volume.
> Hum all but absent!
> There is still a tiny amount at the very top end of the volume range, but nothing like I was getting even a couple of days ago.
> ...


 
  
 That's really good news S67...am happy for you - your enjoyment can now continue unabated lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....CHEERS!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


untilthen said:


> I dare not touch my current black, silent and hum free, 'at any volume' setup ...  with any tubes ... in case I jinx it.
> 
> So yeah... it's perfect now.. no touching for me.


 
  
 Hey UT...'perfect' is what I had believed totally..._*until*_ my latest gizmo LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...shame these people aren't down (under!) your way either...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...this thing is a no-brainer at our UK price...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1. You are constantly upending my life. I may just have to move to Europe


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1. You are constantly upending my life. I may just have to move to Europe


 
  
 Sorry pct...just can 't help myself LOL! - just make sure it's 220/240V mains!!!...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry pct...just can 't help myself LOL! -* just make sure it's 220/240V mains!!!.*..


 
  
 Of course!!! That's the main criterion.


----------



## tjw321

untilthen said:


> Congrats Sporky. Now get a T1 G2 or a HD800 for a totally hum free experience. Having said that, my HE560 is quiet with Elise at ALL volume.
> 
> @tjw321  still waiting on your feedback with your new T1 G2. Too engrossed listening to music I supposed.


 
 Definitely too engrossed with the music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm finding it difficult to know how to describe the T1 because you need a reference point to compare things to and I'm finding that there is no real comparison with the headphones I've listened to before. It was quite a shock to discover that there was a whole new level of sound rather than the incremental difference I was expecting. I have an HD600 and a K702. I love both but the T1 is not in the same class. If pushed, I would say that it is closer to the K702 in terms of detail vs the HD600s smoothness, but that the bass is much more present than it is in the K702. If I were to sell one of the 3 headphones it would be the K702 simply because the HD600 is more different to the T1 than the K702 is. There will definitely be occasions when I'll want the HD600s relaxed sound over the T1s, but I don't think I'll ever choose the AKGs over the T1s (this also reflects the headphone comfort levels too T1 > HD600 >> K702 for me, YMMV).
 Comparing the T1G2 to the brief listen I had to the T1G1 in non-ideal conditions, months ago (i.e. take this with a huge pinch of salt), I'd say that the G2 has lost a little of the G1s "edge". This "edge" pairs well with tube amps (and hence, the Elise), but I have some SS systems too (the Ifi stack in my avatar, and a mojo based portable system) and I *think* that the G2 works a bit better than the G1 with those - but really this is just guess-work and post-purchase rationalisation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Karlsand

Hypnos1, may I ask where you purchased your power regenerator? 250 GBP seems a really good price for such a sturdy looking thing (and apparently one that does work!).

Br, Karl


----------



## UntilThen

tjw321 said:


> Definitely too engrossed with the music
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Glad you love the T1 G2. For most, this headphone would probably be the end of all headphone purchases. The AKG K702 strikes me as pretty good when I heard it at the Sydney meet. Prior to that I've not given too much thought on AKG.
  
 Comfort wise, it's hard to beat HD800. You could wear that the whole day.


----------



## hypnos1

karlsand said:


> Hypnos1, may I ask where you purchased your power regenerator? 250 GBP seems a really good price for such a sturdy looking thing (and apparently one that does work!).
> 
> Br, Karl


 
  
 Hi Karl...yo, I still cannot believe such a piece of kit can go for so (relatively) little money - wouldn't want to even think of trying to put together something similar myself...far too dangerous a thing to tinker with anyway LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. As the guy in the headmania review said, for this price you ask yourself whether it really _can_ be any good!..._*but it is!!!*_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Anyway, here is the link to the PowerInspired people direct : http://www.powerinspired.com/ag500-ac-regenerator-500w-with-pwm-fan-control-p-1811.html
  
 GOOD LUCK!
 CJ


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Of course!!! That's the main criterion.


 
  
 But your Elise is 110/120V, n'est-ce pas mon ami?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...good excuse to have a _second_ one though LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

tjw321 said:


> Definitely too engrossed with the music
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi T...sounds like you're pretty well on the ball re. the differences lol - it appears to me the Beyer guys tweaked things in light of those who were more prone to the treble 'spike' of G1, although there were many who found no such problem. There were,of course, several mods that supposedly 'tamed' the treble, but most reports hinted at a certain loss of sparkle - the "edge" you referred to. I personally only had slight misgivings when my beloved C3g'S' were in the driver's seat...otherwise I find the treble to be just right, and certainly no need for any bass enhancement (but, naturally, so much depends on the rest of one's system!). As has been mentioned to me, perhaps one could summarise by saying G2 is better suited to 'relaxed' listening...G1 to the more 'serious' type? But as usual, it all comes down to personal preference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Whatever, you will most certainly be enjoying these beauties for a _very_ long while yet...CONGRATULATIONS!...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> But your Elise is 110/120V, n'est-ce pas mon ami?!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah. Everything I own is 110/120V. I may just sell everything (other than my tubes and headphone), order a 220V Jotunheim, and wait for Elise 2 combined with your tube DAC and regenerator)). There may be some real bargains popping up here before the end of the year. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll probably order a carton of vegemite before hand and throw in a can with each item to "sweeten" the deal


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Yeah. Everything I own is 110/120V. I may just sell everything (other than my tubes and headphone), order a 220V Jotunheim, and wait for Elise 2 combined with your tube DAC and regenerator)). There may be some real bargains popping up here before the end of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sounds pretty good to me pct...but just how long do you think you could live without Elise's sweet music caressing your ears, lol?!!...(2 days is about _my_ limit! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...my bones tell me there are some tricky times ahead...but all will be well in the end! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Sounds pretty good to me pct...but just how long do you think you could live without Elise's sweet music caressing your ears, lol?!!...(2 days is about _my_ limit!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 My bones are telling me the same!!! But maybe it's just the rain that has arrived from Mexico


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> pctazhp said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah. Everything I own is 110/120V. I may just sell everything (other than my tubes and headphone), order a 220V Jotunheim, and wait for Elise 2 combined with your tube DAC and regenerator)). There may be some real bargains popping up here before the end of the year.
> ...


 

 I am sure the Elise can be switched to 230 volts. All the transformers I use have two 115 volt winding's hook them in series it is 230 volts in parallel it is 115.
 It would be more expensive for a company to buy 2 different transformers then have one that would work everywhere.


----------



## pctazhp

2359glenn said:


> I am sure the Elise can be switched to 230 volts. All the transformers I use have two 115 volt winding's hook them in series it is 230 volts in parallel it is 115.
> It would be more expensive for a company to buy 2 different transformers then have one that would work everywhere.


 
 Thanks Glenn. I'll talk to FA about it when the time comes.


----------



## UntilThen

I was going to buy a pair of gorgeous Ken Rad 6SN7gt black glass from @connieflyer. I ask for the tube test results and if they are identical twins, of the same height and appearance. This is what he send me.
  


 I'm convinced on the spot. Sold to me! Thanks Don. Can't wait for the Ken Rads. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Kentucky Radio !!!


----------



## DecentLevi

Well H1, I've gotta hand it to ya, you've really seemed to have gotten us all on board for power regenerators - myself included. Come to think of it, this was one main difference with the original Liquid Carbon amp I tried anyway, why it sounded so much better to a level I could never seem to attain at home, and the difference being the original had a power conditioner with a snake-thick shielded cable to it. Just as well I believe something similar could transform the Elise... though it doesn't necessarily _need _transforming, I would be interested to hear the result.
  
 Of course though there are some limitations to some of us in the US - I for one only have two prong power outlets in this current room, and then as for @pctazhp, even if you get a 240v Elise + 240v regenerator, I'm not sure how either of them would draw enough power coming from only a ~110v outlet source! Seems either you would need a sort of step-up converter before the regenerator, or more likely would be best contacting Power Inspired for an alternate or modded product, or going with another power unit that accepts your native voltage.


----------



## DecentLevi

Also @HOWIE13 oh no, all was meant well, I just have a bit of a strange and dark-ish humour. No double meanings ever, we're all good friends in this shared 'audiophile career', LOL
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And I do think you are onto something about the Raytheon "RCA" 6080's being detailed. Honestly they are only a nuance more detailed than others if at all, but there's really something about its' dynamics, details, etc. that make them gel well with the HD 650's. Then adding the EL3N's as drivers with these have some kind of voodoo synergy with the HD650's! These power tubes are an under-appreciated tube worth exploring, and are as cheap as a pack of beer!


----------



## DecentLevi

Also @hypnos1, You've always had me lost on the terminology for your GEC tubes, sometimes referring it to GEC / Osram, other times GEC 6080 (IIRC), and now "GEC/Osram/MWT CV2523/A1834s". Are those multiple tubes, or nicknames for the same ones - and these all GEC 6080's or Osram brand? And as far as I understand, these are your reigning king tubes for your unique setup, right?


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> Well H1, I've gotta hand it to ya, you've really seemed to have gotten us all on board for power regenerators - myself included. Come to think of it, this was one main difference with the original Liquid Carbon amp I tried anyway, why it sounded so much better to a level I could never seem to attain at home, and the difference being the original had a power conditioner with a snake-thick shielded cable to it. Just as well I believe something similar could transform the Elise... though it doesn't necessarily _need _transforming, I would be interested to hear the result.
> 
> Of course though there are some limitations to some of us in the US - I for one only have two prong power outlets in this current room, and then as for @pctazhp, even if you get a 240v Elise + 240v regenerator, I'm not sure how either of them would draw enough power coming from only a ~110v outlet source! Seems either you would need a sort of step-up converter before the regenerator, or more likely would be best contacting Power Inspired for an alternate or modded product, or going with another power unit that accepts your native voltage.


 
 DL:  I can understand how you might be confused)) I'm not talking about getting a 240V regenerator or a 240V Elise for use here in the US


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Also @HOWIE13 oh no, all was meant well, I just have a bit of a strange and dark-ish humour. No double meanings ever, we're all good friends in this shared 'audiophile career', LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Spot on DL. Voodoo, magic- apt descriptions.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I was going to buy a pair of gorgeous Ken Rad 6SN7gt black glass from @connieflyer. I ask for the tube test results and if they are identical twins, of the same height and appearance. This is what he send me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good decision. Those Ken-Rad's in Elise really show what they can do when combined with the 4 EL3N's as powers. Bass, bass, bass............


----------



## HOWIE13

Concerning the Power  Regenerator:
  
 Am I right to believe it has no UK 3-pin socket outlet so connections to our kit is by 'kettle' IEC mains leads such as this? :
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3m-Power-Extension-Cable-IEC-Kettle-Male-to-Female-UPS-Lead-C13-C14-/401050245210?hash=item5d6075185a:g:4VMAAOSwNyFWcvAT
  
  
  
 If so. should I be buying a special quality of such a lead or is one like the above okay ie would it counter the beneficial effects of the Regenerator?


----------



## oshipao

@UntilThen
  
 I have a pair of HD 650 on trial at home.
  
 Will they open up with use, beacuse now the sound is muffled and all in my head? Really like the HD 600 a lot more as it is


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> @UntilThen
> 
> I have a pair of HD 650 on trial at home.
> 
> Will they open up with use, beacuse now the sound is muffled and all in my head? Really like the HD 600 a lot more as it is


 

 Wars have been fought concerning debate between HD600 and HD650. Some like one while others like the other. It really depends on individuals. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 HD650 is more warm and mid bass has a nice impact. HD600 is all about clarity. I could live with both. However a modded HD650, now that's something else. I think it's time Sennheiser retune the HD650. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now if you like HD600, perhaps T1 is more your taste.


----------



## HOWIE13

oshipao said:


> @UntilThen
> 
> I have a pair of HD 650 on trial at home.
> 
> Will they open up with use, beacuse now the sound is muffled and all in my head? Really like the HD 600 a lot more as it is


 
  
 I've tried hard and in many different situations to love the 650 but for me the sound is as if I'm listening through a letter box-no height or much depth. Not so much muffled or veiled, with the right amp, tubes etc. Maybe yours need to burn in for a while. I can't recall if mine initially changed with use- I've had them about 4 years.
  
 I do prefer the 600 and use it quite a lot.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Wars have been fought concerning debate between HD600 and HD650. Some like one while others like the other. It really depends on individuals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think they were re-tuned to be a bit more detailed, with better controlled bass, a few years ago- if you see white, rather than black when looking through the back grill it's the newer version. 
  
 I'm sorely tempted by the T1- but which version, and then there's the two 800's and then the 560 you thought might suit me, --oh dear!


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I think they were re-tuned to be a bit more detailed, with better controlled bass, a few years ago- if you see white, rather than black when looking through the back grill it's the newer version.
> 
> I'm sorely tempted by the T1- but which version, and then there's the two 800's and then the 560 you thought might suit me, --oh dear!


 

 I thought for you it's quite clear cut. Get the HD800 and Mahler will never sound the same again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If the treble spike bothers you, get the mod but you may not even need it with Elise.
  
 If there's a retuned for HD650, it's still not sufficient. The mod being done to it really opens up HD650 plus tighten up the bass and gives the mid that focus. The thick foam squashed inside the spider is what makes the HD650 warm and even dark to some and  really tone down the treble. However a modded HD650 is still never as revealing as T1 or HD800.
  
 HE560 sounds good but will never have the soundstage of the HD800 or T1. The tight clamp makes it hard to use the headphone for long.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hello all, I just got what I consider to be my first serious adapter-less tube for the Elise. Along with the Mullards which I've yet to receive, I also ordered this awesome pair of *Raytheon 6080's *(RCA rebranded I believe). The sound signature I'm getting is seductive, resolving, dynamic and velvety delicious.
> 
> So far I've compared it to my GE 6AS7 GA and it makes the GE's sound soft, mid-bassy and artificial treble in comparison. I'm still comparing it to my dual 6BL7 + 6SN7 power combination, and it seems to have better dynamics and maybe slightly more 'focused'.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi DL
  
 Having problems with my internet this morning and it's difficult for me to navigate through pages as the signal keeps dropping out.
  
 Sometime in the dim and distant past, probably actually only last week, we were mentioning rings around tubes and I said I had thrown mine away as they didn't make any difference.
 I think you may have asked if I could post a picture or find out what they were like. Anyway, I've found them buried in a bundle of disused cables in the garage.
  
 Just tried them on a couple of microphonic tubes and still no benefit and no difference listening to them on good sounding tubes, either. Maybe you will have better luck. They were only two or three pounds in cost though, as I remember.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I thought for you it's quite clear cut. Get the HD800 and Mahler will never sound the same again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's clear advice and thanks. I would certainly not want a tight head clamp all through a Mahler symphony.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Sometime in the dim and distant past, probably actually only last week, we were mentioning rings around tubes and I said I had thrown mine away as they didn't make any difference.
> I think you may have asked if I could post a picture or find out what they were like. Anyway, I've found them buried in a bundle of disused cables in the garage.
> 
> Just tried them on a couple of microphonic tubes and still no benefit and no difference listening to them on good sounding tubes, either. Maybe you will have better luck. They were only two or three pounds in cost though, as I remember.


 
  
 These things work (if they work) by adding their mass to the system. This _may_ help tame a microphonic tube – if you are very lucky.
  


> All damping methods based on increased mass have limitations. It may or may not be very effective in your application.
> — tubemonger.com


----------



## Oskari

Funny thing. I was there at the baseball stadium in Oulu in 2004. No video unfortunately,


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> These things work (if they work) by adding their mass to the system. This _may_ help tame a microphonic tube – if you are very lucky.


 
 Maybe I'll try putting two on each tube to increase the mass further.
  
  
 EDIT: Nah-made no difference.


----------



## DavidA

@HOWIE13, I had to bend the headband of my HE-560, HE-400i, HD-600 and HD-650, all were much to tight and with the HD-600/650 both gave me a headache after a few minutes.  HD-800 and T1 clamping force are actually a little too loose for me, they move around too much and for my GF the HD-800 will fall off if she looks down.  Only 2 headphones that were perfect from the factory are the HD-700, one of the most comfortable, clamping force is just right and the pads are very comfortable and the SRH-1840, so light and just right clamping force.
  
 Between the HD-800 and 800S, the original 800 is better for music that is mainly instruments while the newer "S" does better with vocals to my GF and I.  If you listen to music with a lot of vocals then I would go with the HE-560, with the HD-800/S and T1 the vocals can sometimes seem to spaced out due to the wide sound stage and sounds weird at times.
  
 Did anyone with a HD-800/S or T1 that has an Elise ever listen to those headphones with a Chord Hugo?  A fellow head-fier came by last week and I liked the pairing of his Hugo and my HD-800 & HE-560.  He's in the military so having to move around a lot the Hugo does a great job as a semi-portable rig but I still like the HD-800 with my BH Crack a little better and the HE-560 with my Lyr2 so if anyone did get to compare the Elise with a Hugo I would love to hear their impressions. 
  
 He also brought along his Ether C which is not quite my cup of tea, a little bass lite for my taste and not a good pairing with the Hugo, we both liked the Ether C better with the headphone output of the UD-301 DAC or Ember.


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> @HOWIE13, I had to bend the headband of my HE-560, HE-400i, HD-600 and HD-650, all were much to tight and with the HD-600/650 both gave me a headache after a few minutes.  HD-800 and T1 clamping force are actually a little too loose for me, they move around too much and for my GF the HD-800 will fall off if she looks down.  Only 2 headphones that were perfect from the factory are the HD-700, one of the most comfortable, clamping force is just right and the pads are very comfortable and the SRH-1840, so light and just right clamping force.
> 
> Between the HD-800 and 800S, the original 800 is better for music that is mainly instruments while the newer "S" does better with vocals to my GF and I.  If you listen to music with a lot of vocals then I would go with the HE-560, with the HD-800/S and T1 the vocals can sometimes seem to spaced out due to the wide sound stage and sounds weird at times.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for that advice David. Thinking about what you and UT have so helpfully advised I'm going to audition carefully first.
  
 At this stage I think I'm leaning towards the 800 as I do crave instrumental detail and I'm more of a treble than a bass freak but I need to check the fit. Fortunately my head is a bit bigger than average, thanks partly to the fact I've still got all my hair.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 You inspired me to open up my patented storage system and look through my stash of RCA 6080 tubes culled from the eBay bargain bins.
  
 Storage system: Shoe boxes with labels on the lid. Each set of tubes is marked with a piece of paper stating brand, type and date of manufacture, as well as some kind of rating like Excellent, VG  or dull sounding etc. I have maybe two real pairs and the rest are "near" (or distant) pairs; each pair is individually wrapped in bubble wrap or foam sheets.
  
 For some strange reason my camera plays an optical trick and the lid looks like it doesn't fit the the box, but it does.
  





  
 My best pair is a rebranded RCA from May 1960 labeled Stromberg-Carlson which was a large electronics distributor at one time.
  
 Here are two closeups:




  




  
 These tubes run hot - watch your fingers!
  
 In comparison with my reference Tung Sol 7236 they at first sounded dull and dark with much less energy in the treble, but after warming up for 1/2 hour they came to life.
  
*SURPRISE!!! * *These RCA 6080 really sound very good.* The bass isn't as powerful and controlled as the TS 7236, and the soundstage is not the same degree of wall-to-wall sound, but otherwise they give the TS 7236 a run for the money (as in $5/tube if you buy them right).
 The EL3N tubes synergize beautifully with these RCAs. I am hereby proclaiming this combination the current budget champion for the Elise.
  
 Give 'em a try!
  
 Thank you, DL, for bringing this to my attention!
  
  
 A quick search on eBay reveals over 70 listings. The least expensive pair is less than $8 shipped:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RCA-6080-Reliable-Lo-Mu-Twin-Power-Triode-Audio-Vacuum-Tubes-Similar-to-6AS7G-/191955017634?hash=item2cb1691fa2:g:G~AAAOSwpoJXEALy
  
 Then there is another pair for $14.50 shipped; several pairs in the $20 range etc etc.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi DL,
> 
> You inspired me to open up my patented storage system and look through my stash of RCA 6080 tubes culled from the eBay bargain bins.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 As DL suspected, from what I can see from the pictures they look identical to my Raytheons. Will try tonight.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Storage system: Shoe boxes with labels on the lid.




That is a beautiful system, and a lovely shoe box, too.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 I am showing my storage system as an idea of a low or no cost alternative - always found it difficult to find tubes I had not used for a while if they all were in some drawer or larger storage box. This way it makes it much easier to find them. If you buy more tubes and they don't fit in the box you can just switch to a larger one.
  
 The RCA 6080 tubes I have have been burned in long ago - I don't understand why they change so much now. After a couple of hours the treble is full strength and if anything, I am even more impressed by them - this is a real sleeper,,,,, The midrange is very nice and musical - toetappingly delicious (not in Webster's Dictionary?) But I can't help myself from sitting here and grinning from ear to ear and tapping my toes.....
  
 Have to compare them with another very good budget tube - the GE/RCA/HP 6AS7GA - wouldn't be surprised if they sound better than the 6AS7GA.
  
 What could account for these tubes sounding better after a while - the electrons getting to know each other? I am big believer in involuntary toe tapping as an index.....


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Thanks Glenn. I'll talk to FA about it when the time comes.


 
  
 Hi pct. From what Glenn says, I suspect pretty well all equipment specified as "220/240V" revolves around a base 230V (and 110/120V around 115V, therefore). Ergo, I would think Elise's standard is also therefore 230V or 115V already lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. But even if not, I should imagine the effects (if any!) of slight voltage variations are only a very small part of what a mains "regenerator" addresses...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


decentlevi said:


> Well H1, I've gotta hand it to ya, you've really seemed to have gotten us all on board for power regenerators - myself included. Come to think of it, this was one main difference with the original Liquid Carbon amp I tried anyway, why it sounded so much better to a level I could never seem to attain at home, and the difference being the original had a power conditioner with a snake-thick shielded cable to it. Just as well I believe something similar could transform the Elise... though it doesn't necessarily _need _transforming, I would be interested to hear the result.
> 
> Of course though there are some limitations to some of us in the US - I for one only have two prong power outlets in this current room, and then as for @pctazhp, even if you get a 240v Elise + 240v regenerator, I'm not sure how either of them would draw enough power coming from only a ~110v outlet source! Seems either you would need a sort of step-up converter before the regenerator, or more likely would be best contacting Power Inspired for an alternate or modded product, or going with another power unit that accepts your native voltage.


 
  
 Yo DL...I'm now firmly convinced this is an area that deserves _far_ more attention/trialling than has generally been the case until now. And if these guys at "PowerInspired" can make such a product at an amazingly reasonable price, I can't see why others shouldn't also be able to bring these benefits to a much wider audience, who otherwise may well (rightly!) be put off by too high a price.
  
 Your own conclusion re the power "conditioned" LC results hints at this, and it appears AC "regeneration" is in fact preferable to mains conditioning/filtering which, in the process of "taming" different kinds of interference, can sometimes - some claim - also tame such elements as dynamics, especially as we raise the bar in equipment performance.
  
 Your mention of a "fancy" shielded cable is yet another (controversial!) subject, and one very much subject to the "Law of diminishing returns", to be sure! But within the realms of _reasonable/affordable_ cost, perhaps does deserve closer inspection/consideration...


decentlevi said:


> Also @hypnos1, You've always had me lost on the terminology for your GEC tubes, sometimes referring it to GEC / Osram, other times GEC 6080 (IIRC), and now "GEC/Osram/MWT CV2523/A1834s". Are those multiple tubes, or nicknames for the same ones - and these all GEC 6080's or Osram brand? And as far as I understand, these are your reigning king tubes for your unique setup, right?


 
  
 Sorry for any confusion DL...will try to clarify.
  
 GEC can be regarded as the main 'stable', with main brand names such as Osram and MWT under its umbrella.
  
 In _most _cases, the "GEC" labelled ST-shaped ("Coke bottle") 6AS7G seems to be termed "CV2523", and the "Osram" labelled ST bottle "A1834"...with "MWT" labelled versions any possible combination!  "6AS7G" may or may not appear in the lettering. Other brand names are Genalex, STC, Haltron...but great care needs to be taken with the latter especially - they also rebrand the much cheaper Russian '6AS7G', ie. their 6N13S/6H13C!! All the British "GEC" stable ST-shape 6AS7G = CV2523 = A1834...to all intents and purposes. There are slight variations in certain additional numbering/lettering, depending upon military grade for example, but don't appear to influence sound quality.
  
 The GEC 6080 is the straight-bottle version of the "coke bottle", as with all 6AS7G vs 6080. The ST-shaped GEC variants are the "Holy Grails" LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and do indeed reign supreme in my own setup...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...
  


howie13 said:


> Concerning the Power  Regenerator:
> 
> Am I right to believe it has no UK 3-pin socket outlet so connections to our kit is by 'kettle' IEC mains leads such as this? :
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed H13...there are 6 IEC outlets at the back, and one lead is included in the box...along with a standard UK 3-pin mains plug lead.
  
 One of the reviewers I linked previously said he had improved results from reterminating some of his better quality mains cables with silver-plated male IEC plugs from MainscablesRus, but these are no longer available and have been replaced with ones specially cleaned and treated with "Deoxit". I personally reterminated my MCRU high grade cables with male IEC plugs from Maplin, that I silver-plated myself. But I'm sure that _decent_ quality  'standard' IEC to IEC leads would not in fact be _too _detrimental LOL!


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed H13...there are 6 IEC outlets at the back, and one lead is included in the box...along with a standard UK 3-pin mains plug lead.
> 
> One of the reviewers I linked previously said he had improved results from reterminating some of his better quality mains cables with silver-plated male IEC plugs from MainscablesRus, but these are no longer available and have been replaced with ones specially cleaned and treated with "Deoxit". I personally reterminated my MCRU high grade cables with male IEC plugs from Maplin, that I silver-plated myself. But I'm sure that _decent_ quality  'standard' IEC to IEC leads would not in fact be _too _detrimental LOL!


 
 Thanks for the reassurance H1. I didn't want to spend lots of money on numerous cables. Appreciate your help.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> I am showing my storage system as an idea of a low or no cost alternative - always found it difficult to find tubes I had not used for a while if they all were in some drawer or larger storage box. This way it makes it much easier to find them. If you buy more tubes and they don't fit in the box you can just switch to a larger one.




Hei, Mordy! You are likely better organized than I am, but that is essentially the same system I have, at zero cost, obviously. Cheap is good, free is better.


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDNpNP35A_8[/VIDEO]

Jätän tämän vain tähän.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> The GEC 6080 is the straight-bottle version of the "coke bottle", as with all 6AS7G vs 6080. The ST-shaped GEC variants are the "Holy Grails" LOL!




If I may, this could help a bit. There was a manufacturer called M-O Valve Co. (MOV), originally Marconi-Osram Valve Co. This was a GEC (Osram being their brand) and Marconi joint venture. Later on, MOV was owned by GEC and EMI, and even later on by GEC alone. So, MOV was the manufacturer. Brands such as Marconi, Osram, MWT, GEC, etc. appeared.


----------



## UntilThen

Sigh my tubes are in 3 drawers and spilling on the bookshelf but I can't put them in shoe boxes. I need them at arms length and readily available. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Oscar how can I forget that song. Beautiful just beautiful and Elise helps me to remember Phil Collins.


----------



## mordy

Oskari,
  
 And another piece of tube trivia - ST (Coke Bottle shape tube) stands for "Shoulder Type."
  
 GT tubes means "Glass Tubular."
  
 G means "Glass" (?)
  
 Does GEC mean General Electric Company?
  
 MWT? Marconi Wire Telegraph?


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Oscar how can I forget that song. Beautiful just beautiful and Elise helps me to remember Phil Collins.




That album, ... But Seriously, completely kicks arse.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Oskari,
> 
> And another piece of tube trivia - ST (Coke Bottle shape tube) stands for "Shoulder Type."
> 
> ...




Yes, and implies ST.




mordy said:


> Does GEC mean General Electric Company?




Yes, but this was a UK company not to be confused with General Electric in US.




mordy said:


> MWT? Marconi Wire Telegraph?




Almost. Marconi's Wire_less_ Telegraph Co.


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6MqxKHmTQ[/VIDEO]


----------



## UntilThen

Great music from Norah Jones. Thanks Oskari. I think it will be a Norah day for me today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Btw where is my Cetron 7236? @pctazhp  ?


----------



## UntilThen

I'm still on Norah Jones.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7KRaKaWptI[/VIDEO]


----------



## louisxiawei

Guys, OMG. My heart is borken. Few weeks ago, I asked my girlfriend to buy a pair of GEC 6AS7G tubes for me on that Chinese online shop I mentioned to you (costing £250 for a pair) and today my girlfriend cried to me on the phone that her mum threw it away by accident!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think not only my wallet hurts but also my heart hurts. I don't really care the money is gone tbh since I can earn it back but the preicious tubes, it is in limited quantity.

So I don't think I will buy the GEC 6AS7G again at £600 on ebay UK at the moment after this heart attack. It is suppoed to be a bargain! Cry me a river!

Now I'm thinking the alternative: I read the review on http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.475;wap2

Indcating that $60 (NIB) Mullard is marketed as having the same sound as the GEC 6AS7G A1834/CV2523 but for a fraction of the cost and less analytical. What do you guys think? 

My heart still hurts a lot.


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> Guys, OMG. My heart is borken. Few weeks ago, I asked my girlfriend to buy a pair of GEC 6AS7G tubes for me on that Chinese online shop I mentioned to you (costing £250 for a pair) and today my girlfriend cried to me on the phone that her mum threw it away by accident!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I think not only my wallet hurts but also my heart hurts. I don't really care the money is gone tbh since I can earn it back but the preicious tubes, it is in limited quantity.
> 
> ...




Hi louis....PLEASE tell me this isn't true - it simply CANNOT BE, lol!!! If so, I too am crying in sympathy already!

I am SO, SO sorry for you...yeah, these beauties are SO rare - especially at a 'reasonable' price...but I shan't dwell on this any more!...commiserations indeed, mon ami...

"Marketed" as same sound - God save us from the marketing guys LOL!! Even Nick says "80%"...and that extra 20% makes all the difference, I'm sure! Whether the much higher price is truly justified is open to debate, and can only come down to the amount of spare $$$£££ in one's wallet!...and the rest of the gear, of course...

Also, this particular 6080 ONLY refers to the one with genuine "GEC" label on it...NO OTHER!!, as far as I am aware...but welcome any other comments...These are the ones @pctazph recently acquired, and which he loves - a couple of other guys here also have them, I believe...

And their prices have also rocketed recently, alas!

Cheers for now,
Best,
(A sad) CJ...


----------



## louisxiawei

hypnos1 said:


> Hi louis....PLEASE tell me this isn't true - it simply CANNOT BE, lol!!! If so, I too am crying in sympathy already!
> 
> I am SO, SO sorry for you...yeah, these beauties are SO rare - especially at a 'reasonable' price...but I shan't dwell on this any more!...commiserations indeed, mon ami...
> 
> ...




Thanks for your sympathy. I just need to generally accept the fact. 

I'm a little confused about your comment on this particular 6080. The review says "Mullard 6080" while you are teling me GEC labelled is the one. Are they just totally different in sound?

I'm thinking about purchasing the mullard tubes in the link below for alternative, 

https://valvetubes.com/6080wa-cv2984-mullard-british-valve-tubes.html


The review from this link http://www.tubemaze.info/genalex-6as7g-cup-getter-england/

also suggests that Mullard has its own warmth and lusciousness while the GEC 6AS7G is too analytical. If so, I will think the Mullard 6080 is a better choice with my T1. 

Any thought? Do you guys recommend me to buy the Mullard branded 6080 tubes? Thanks again.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi there H1, curious if you're also feeding your DAC with the power regenerator? As DACs also have their own 1st stage amp, that may benefit from this conditioning too. Also which driver tubes have you been using, and with which variant of the GEC tube?

One more thing - I think people would be blown away if you were to demo your souped up rig at any meets.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks for your sympathy. I just need to generally accept the fact.
> 
> I'm a little confused about your comment on this particular 6080. The review says "Mullard 6080" while you are teling me GEC labelled is the one. Are they just totally different in sound?
> 
> ...






Hi louisxiawei

I'm very sorry to learn what happened. Deepest commiserations.

I'm assuming you don't have Elise yet and wonder if it may be a good idea to just take a deep breath, so to speak, and wait for Elise to come and try the stock tubes. 

The advantage is most on this site know how the stock tubes sound and if you told us how you wished their sound to be improved for your needs I, for one, would be in a much better position to help and advise you.

Personally I don't find those Mullards lush; clear and sweet with a very good sound stage, but not overly warmly rich sounding, to my ears, anyway.

After what has happened it would be best to minimise the possibility of spending money on tubes that don't suit you.

Just a thought.

Cheers.

Howard.


----------



## HOWIE13

Is anyone else getting a message that_* 'the rich text editor is not compatible with your browser'*_ and many functions are not now available?

Never had that before.

Using up to date version of Chrome.


----------



## HOWIE13

ERROR


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Is anyone else getting a message that_* 'the rich text editor is not compatible with your browser'*_ and many functions are not now available?
> 
> Never had that before.
> 
> Using up to date version of Chrome.




I always get that with Chrome on Android (tablet). So I just use the not so rich text editor. Sometimes even that loses all the editor buttons.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> Hi louisxiawei
> 
> I'm very sorry to learn what happened. Deepest commiserations.
> 
> ...




Thanks Howard, good point. Lukasz has shipped my Elise two days ago, I should receive her any time next week. I will let you know my thought of its first sound and once it is fully burned in and share my impression with my own setup.

Now i will “ Keep calm and wait for the Elise"

Regards,
Wei


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks Howard, good point. Lukasz has shipped my Elise two days ago, I should receive her any time next week. I will let you know my thought of its first sound and once it is fully burned in and share my impression with my own setup.
> 
> Now i will “ Keep calm and wait for the Elise"
> 
> ...




Good idea Wei 

Actually I find the stock tubes are very pleasant and quite lush so I don't think you will be disappointed with their sound, though doubtless, like so many of us, you will eventually want to try other options.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> I always get that with Chrome on Android (tablet). So I just use the not so rich text editor. Sometimes even that loses all the editor buttons.




I'm on PC, Oskar, and have never had this before- what a pain, being used to the much more comprehensive editor and layout.

I hope it's just a glitch and will come right again. :mad:


----------



## pctazhp

I'm now having same problem with both Chrome and Firefox. I don't even know if this will post. Most definitely a total pain.


----------



## Oskari

louisxiawei said:


> I'm a little confused about your comment on this particular 6080. The review says "Mullard 6080" while you are teling me GEC labelled is the one. Are they just totally different in sound?




That review is very confusing at II.d).




> II.d) $60 (NIB) Mullard (Also labelled as Telefunken, Valvo and GEC) CV2984 6080WA




There used to be a photo showing a GEC tube there.

GEC (MOV), Tfk and Mullard made their own 6080s. Possible rebrands excepted, those tubes are not the same.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I'm now having same problem with both Chrome and Firefox. I don't even know if this will post. Most definitely a total pain.




I read you but this is a real bummer.

I've emailed the support team. Fingers crossed it's a temporary fault.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I'm still on Norah Jones.




Just noticed there's a new album, Day Breaks, coming out soon.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> If I may, this could help a bit. There was a manufacturer called M-O Valve Co. (MOV), originally Marconi-Osram Valve Co. This was a GEC (Osram being their brand) and Marconi joint venture. Later on, MOV was owned by GEC and EMI, and even later on by GEC alone. So, MOV was the manufacturer. Brands such as Marconi, Osram, MWT, GEC, etc. appeared.




Yes indeed O...thanks - any and all help much appreciated! And just to confuse matters even further, there are tube boxes about with "BVA" (British Valve Association) on them, but don't think this name appeared on the tubes themselves?!...




louisxiawei said:


> Thanks for your sympathy. I just need to generally accept the fact.
> 
> I'm a little confused about your comment on this particular 6080. The review says "Mullard 6080" while you are teling me GEC labelled is the one. Are they just totally different in sound?
> 
> ...




Hi again...by all accounts these Mullard 6080s are not in the same league as the GEC labelled ones...@pctazhp should also be able to give you a good idea of their virtues...but the GECs are getting very hard to find at more reasonable prices now alas!




decentlevi said:


> Hi there H1, curious if you're also feeding your DAC with the power regenerator? As DACs also have their own 1st stage amp, that may benefit from this conditioning too. Also which driver tubes have you been using, and with which variant of the GEC tube?
> 
> One more thing - I think people would be blown away if you were to demo your souped up rig at any meets.




Hi DL...oh yes, most certainly feeding the DAC also - silly not to LOL!

Drivers are now permanently the ECC31s since the new tube DAC, with my GEC CV2523 ("Coke bottle") powers.

As for carting this lot to a meet, risk of hernia/spinal injury/heart attack far too great alas!!...so will have to pass on that one...(but boy, I'm quite sure this rig would give some a good deal more expensive a fair run for their money!  




howie13 said:


> Is anyone else getting a message that_* 'the rich text editor is not compatible with your browser'*_ and many functions are not now available?
> 
> Never had that before.
> 
> Using up to date version of Chrome.




Glad I'm not the only one to go What?!!! this morning...just what is going on with head-fi site? - bad enough the pages take yonks to load properly, and now the text editor is not compatible with my browser? Happens with Edge, Firefox AND Chrome for Heaven's sake...hope they do indeed sort it...SOON lol!!


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks for your sympathy. I just need to generally accept the fact.
> 
> I'm a little confused about your comment on this particular 6080. The review says "Mullard 6080" while you are teling me GEC labelled is the one. Are they just totally different in sound?
> 
> ...




Really sorry for your bad luck (((

My GEC 6080WAs share very little in common with my Mullard 6080s other than "6080". The GECs are in a different league than the Mullards or any other power tube I have (particularly when paired with EL3Ns as drivers). However, the Mullards you link to are labeled 6080WA and my Mullards are only 6080. I have no idea if the Mullard 6080WAs are the same as my GECs, my Mullards or neither. If they are the same as my GECs I would for sure jump on them.

Sorry I can't be of more help.


----------



## mordy

Folks, it is now the second day with the RCA 6080 tubes, and they really sound terrific with the EL3N tubes. Anybody out there that can check out this combination?

The bass has developed into sub bass. Playing a recording where I can clearly hear the sostenuto pedal which was only hinted at before. This tube is quick, dynamic, and excels in the the entire FR and very musical.



 louisxiawei - if you had these tubes (EL3N/RCA6080) you would get over the loss of the GECs.......

Ughhh - my text editor is having the same problems as others mentioned - must be a systemwide problem.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> However, the Mullards you link to are labeled 6080WA and my Mullards are only 6080. I have no idea if the Mullard 6080WAs are the same as my GECs, my Mullards or neither. If they are the same as my GECs I would for sure jump on them.




Those Mullard 6080WAs were made by Mullard; so, not GEC.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed O...thanks - any and all help much appreciated! And just to confuse matters even further, there are tube boxes about with "BVA" (British Valve Association) on them, but don't think this name appeared on the tubes themselves?!...




It happened.




untilthen said:


>




An association seems innocent, but this was very much a cartel of UK tube makers, utterly illegal by current standards.


----------



## louisxiawei

pctazhp said:


> Really sorry for your bad luck (((
> 
> My GEC 6080WAs share very little in common with my Mullard 6080s other than "6080". The GECs are in a different league than the Mullards or any other power tube I have (particularly when paired with EL3Ns as drivers). However, the Mullards you link to are labeled 6080WA and my Mullards are only 6080. I have no idea if the Mullard 6080WAs are the same as my GECs, my Mullards or neither. If they are the same as my GECs I would for sure jump on them.
> 
> Sorry I can't be of more help.


 
 Thanks pctazhp,
  
 Now I'm less confused. In conlcusion of your experience: 1). GEC 6080> Mullard 6080,  2.) Mullard 6080 is different from Mullard 6080WA.
  
 In the review: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.475;wap2   Mullard 6080WA is claimed to be similar to migty GEC 6AS7G ( need to be confirmed, post your comment if you have them both, I need your help)
  
 I wil still wait and see how Elise stock sound for a while and going to buy the recommend tube from you guys. Thanks for the recommendations @mordy.
  
 One noob question: nowadys technology marches so much and rapidly, But why there is no factory can produce tubes better than those old time epic tubes like GEC 6AS7G?


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks pctazhp,
> 
> Now I'm less confusing. In conlcusion of your experience: 1). GEC 6080> Mullard 6080,  2.) Mullard 6080 is different from Mullard 6080WA.
> 
> ...


 
 You are certainly welcome. You have stated my conclusion correctly.
  
 With respect to your question about new tubes, I assume it is because there is not much demand for tubes these days. While it may seem like the full universe and beyond to us, the "world" of audiophiles and high-end headphone nuts is really pretty tiny in the grand scheme of things (and the number of us who use tubes is even smaller). And from what I understand a lot of the antique tubes we use were never intended for audio applications. Many I believe were produced for military and other demanding applications where high quality was essential.
  
 Good idea to go slow on different tubes at first. Good luck and happy listening


----------



## louisxiawei

Ok guys, sorry to bother you again and again.
  
 Just now my friend sent me a link of a brand new pair of curve-bottom GEC 6AS7G. Costing £270 for a pair. Please help me to identify them whether they are genuine or not. 
  
 If you want more pictures to confirm, I will ask the seller to provide more pictures. (This time I won't let my gf to purchase them, never ever!)
  
 Any help would be appreciated,
 Wei


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> Ok guys, sorry to bother you again and again.
> 
> Just now my friend sent me a link of a brand new pair of curve-bottom GEC 6AS7G. Costing £270 for a pair. Please help me to identify them whether they are genuine or not.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again Wei...yes indeed...those are the 'real thing' - the Holy Grail of Holy Grails in fact. And at an amazing price...for _these_ tubes LOL! If funds permit, _*don't let 'em get away!!!*_...(but then, I'm biased of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). GOOD LUCK!!...


----------



## UntilThen

Alright @louisxiawei get me a pair of those GEC 6AS7G for 270 pounds or throw it in my bin. 
  
 I see there's a 6080 revival here. I'm still running EL3N and plain jane Tung Sol 7236. I must be behind the times. 
  
 However.... Norah Jones has never sounded better.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> An association seems innocent, but this was very much a cartel of UK tube makers, utterly illegal by current standards.


 
  
 Are you saying my gorgeous ECC31 are illegal? They're in storage now waiting for the year 2030 where the price will have quadruple.


----------



## UntilThen

I can't decide which I like better? What about you? Norah or Amy?


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Testing a second near pair of the RCA 6080 tubes - played Unter Donner und Blitz (Thunder and Lightning) by Johann Strauss rendered by the Vienna Philharmonic - a good workout in the basement and top floor for these tubes. Sufficient to say that I have never heard cymbals come through so powerful before in my system.
  
 Alas, the YouTube recording of the same one I am listening to sounds very dull. Found another recording of the same opus with better sound, but nowhere near the impact I get at home. Anyhow, pretty good sound, and from Queensland, which I think is around the corner from you....


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Anyhow, pretty good sound, and from Queensland, which I think is around the corner from you....


 
  
 If you consider 950kms as around the corner, I need a super sports car like Elise !!!
  
 Anyway I believe you about the good sound. Almost any tubes sounds good in Elise.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Are you saying my gorgeous ECC31 are illegal? They're in storage now waiting for the year 2030 where the price will have quadruple. :wink_face:




Yes! Like most UK tubes. Pretty much all the manufacturers were members of the BVA cartel. (British Tungsram wasn't. Can't have "foreign" members.)

Be safe, send all your UK tubes to me!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm going on a road trip to Canberra today and I'm going tubeless with these.
  
 Fiio X5 + Fiio E12 and my trusty iPod classic with HD650.


----------



## connieflyer

Nice glow from the 5998A's


----------



## DavidA

Isn't the glow from tubes the reason most of us have tube amps?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I admit it was the glow of tubes that first made me take an interest in tube headphone amps when a friend asked me to take some pictures of his EC Balancing act showing the glow of the tubes but also showing the amp in normal light.  Had to do a 5 exposure HDR image to capture the brightness range but my friend was really happy with the image and made a 24x36 image and a custom frame made for it.


----------



## connieflyer

Glad to see you weathered the storms.  Something nice and comforting about the tube glow.


----------



## connieflyer

The Voice


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I just got my Mullard 6080 / CV2984 and popped 'em in looping the same track as with the Raytheon "RCA" 6080's. My initial impressions are the the soundstage could be somewhat larger, but that's the only edge I'm finding over the RCA's. These seem somewhat thin, polite and euphonic, whereas the RCA's sounded much more robust / weighty, harder hitting, better imaging and tonality. 
  
 Anyway those are only my _initial _impressions of this brand new (+41 years) NOS un-used Mullards vs. the others which are burned in, so I'll see if they change much in time... or for as long as I can keep myself away from those Raytheon's anyway!
  
 PS- I do think there's a small difference between these Raytheon and the RCA's, which I can share later.
 And the full name is *Raytheon JAN 6080 WB*


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well I just got my Mullard 6080 / CV2984 and popped 'em in looping the same track as with the Raytheon "RCA" 6080's. My initial impressions are the the soundstage could be somewhat larger, but that's the only edge I'm finding over the RCA's. These seem somewhat thin, polite and euphonic, whereas the RCA's sounded much more robust / weighty, harder hitting, better imaging and tonality.
> 
> Anyway those are only my _initial _impressions of this brand new (+41 years) NOS un-used Mullards vs. the others which are burned in, so I'll see if they change much in time... or for as long as I can keep myself away from those Raytheon's anyway!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Mine are -* JRP-6080WA *with code numbers 36 above 280 and below that 65-46.
  
 My Mullards did flesh out after about 24 hours or so.


----------



## louisxiawei

Hey gents, 
  
 Hope you are enjoying your lovely weekend. I have a few noob questions just coming to my mind.
  
 1. During checking different tubes. I found paired tubes like GEC 6AS7G is much expensive than single one. How do we measure the paired tubes? Some sellers just threw me the number paired lower than 3%. What does that 3% mean? How do we measure paired or unpaired?
  
 2. What if I put unpaired tubes on Elise since some of you guys did one tube each socket, what is the disadvantage of unpaired one?
  
 3. I just realised that tube has its lifespan. One of the sellers told me that tubes like GEC A1834 can be listened to up to 2000 hours and then sound quality will deteriorate. 
  
 My habbit of listening to music is: either wear the headphone or turn on the speakers. Usually, music is almost on for 24/7. In this case, I did a simple calculation: tubes can only last less than 6 months for my listening habbit, which means I need to swap tubes very frequently.
  
 Am I thinking correctly in this way? If so, I think I will go for the moderate, and enough stock tubes in stead of NOS and rare epic tubes. (Damn, I think I need to invest someone to open a factory and re-product those old time good valves)
  
 Give me some advice.
  
 Regards,
 Wei


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Mine are - *JRP-6080WA *with code numbers 36 above 280 and below that 65-46.




JRP and 280 tell that yours were made by Raytheon. 65-46 is a date (YY-WW).


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Hey gents,
> 
> Hope you are enjoying your lovely weekend. I have a few noob questions just coming to my mind.
> 
> ...


 

 That's an extreme requirement, music on 24/7. I think you should go tubeless for 20/7 and the remainder 4/7 go tube. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I never felt the urge to go for the super rare and expensive tubes because with the tubes that I have, I've been more than satisfied with what I'm hearing through Elise and my headphones - T1, modded HD650 and HE560.
  
 So there you go. It's Utopia for me now and I don't mean Focal Utopia. I mean the real Utopia. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps... I would be really surprised if the GEC A1834 life span is only 2000 hours. It should be much more than that.


----------



## HOWIE13

@Oskari
  
 RE: Raytheon JRP-6080WA.  
  
 Thanks Oskar.
  
 It's a very nice power tube combined with the EL3N's as drivers. Detailed, yet warm and sweet. Not a huge sound-stage, but more than adequate.
  
 When I first tried them a few weeks ago they sounded bright, but that was with different drivers, and I don't remember what those drivers were; maybe C3g's or 6SN7's, of some sort. Perhaps also they are just burning in.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Hey gents,
> 
> Hope you are enjoying your lovely weekend. I have a few noob questions just coming to my mind.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Who knows what sellers mean by paired/balanced?  Emission, transductance, amplification ???
  
 Let's face it, so many 6SN7 Sylvania's are mis-sold as the 'Chrome Dome' or 'Bad Boy' tubes, you shouldn't read too much into these sort of descriptions.
  
 A good seller will test, among other things, for cathode emission and the better matching ones *may* have better channel balance. However, I've found channel balance is so poor on so many Classical recordings that the tube balance hardly matters. In fact, I have several poorly balanced recordings that benefit from using poorly balanced tubes, which compensate for the poor hearing of the sound engineer.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Incidently, I like your Avatar. For me, a grand piano is one of the hardest tests of a sound system and particularly headphones. Have a good weekend yourself!


----------



## ostewart

Review is finally up:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise/reviews/16814


----------



## pctazhp

ostewart said:


> Review is finally up:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise/reviews/16814


 
 Well done. I give Five Stars to you review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Enjoyed learning a little about the Espressivo. We don't hear much about it usually.


----------



## HOWIE13

ostewart said:


> Review is finally up:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise/reviews/16814


 
  
 Thanks, great review.
  
 Concerning Espressivo, I've found EL3N's and C3g's as power tubes give much more weight and authority to the sound compared to the stock 6N6P tubes, and for a very modest outlay.
  
 At present I'm using EL3N's as powers and Sylvania 6SN7GTA as drivers and, whilst the sound-stage is not as wide, and the bass not as weighty as with Elise, there is as much detail and dynamics to the sound, maintaining nicely articulated bass.
 With Ken-Rad VT231's as drivers Espressivo's bass really comes through very strongly- but those Ken-Rads are not cheap.
  
 It should be emphasised, as always, that the use of non-recommended tubes will invalidate the Warranty in the event their use causes damage to the amplifier.
  
 At half the price of Elise, Espressivo, even using the stock tube types (6N6P and ECC88), is a real bargain for anyone on a tighter budget.


----------



## Acapella11

Howdie everybody,
  
 Just to make it clear before I get outed later, lol, to my shame, I do not own an Elise.
  
 My contribution addresses point 3 of the starting agenda, which is a compatible DAC. My tube amp inventory is only an good old Little Dot MKIV SE but I also have a quite nice SS-amp. I had two different DACs before my current one. The last one was the for its price quite highly regarded Audiolab M-DAC.
  
 The suggestion I would like to put out here is the Chord Mojo, which is more a DAC than an amp. It looks quite unassuming in its small form factor and its fully portable, yet a little weighty. It uses an internal rechageble battery, which you can leave constantly on a charger due to its smart design. I checked this with Chord. In order to connect it you need a 3.5 mm to RCA converter or even better a cable that just does that. You cannot fully circumvent the amp, but you can bypass the volume contol by pushing both volume buttons simultanously when it boots up.
 Now, why all that? It's price point (£399) is below my old M-DAC but the performance head and shoulders above. Amazing resolution, detail, "pin-pointability" is so clear. The signature is neutral, which suits a tube amp fine and works beautifully with my LD.
  
 A friend of mine just compared the Mojo with his nice but a bit older Naim DAC (~£1800) and said a bit disappointed that it was clearly on par...
  
 Everything I said is obviously subjective but I am totally impressed with my little new friend. And now I evaporate back out of the inspiring tube discussion 
  





 This is not my picture...


----------



## HOWIE13

acapella11 said:


> Howdie everybody,
> 
> Just to make it clear before I get outed later, lol, to my shame, I do not own an Elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've regularly use the M-DAC to pair with my CD players and have recently purchased Mojo.
  
 I agree Mojo has excellent resolution and detail and functions very well as a DAC for Elise. It has ample sonic power, headroom and dynamics.
  
 Mojo is very good value for it's price as its sound is certainly excellent and I like the fact it has two headphone outputs for sharing, or comparing, headphones.
 I wish the default volume control bypass had been set at the more conventional approximate 2Vrms output, and the coloured buttons are not really necessary as a conventional potentiometer volume knob would be a lot easier, and quicker, to use.
  
 Also, some will prefer the M-DAC on account of it's larger sound-stage, excellent configurability, vastly superior connectivity, and remote control.


----------



## UntilThen

Good review of Elise @ostewart  it's not easy describing how a tube amp sounds but you made a very good attempt at it and as usual, beautiful photography from you.
  
 When I first saw the Chord Mojo, I was quite shocked at how small it is but it looks extremely cute. It was at a meet with a lot of goodies but there was a lot of interest and people were waiting their turns with the Mojo. Unfortunately I missed trying it as I got myself busy with the Blue Hawaii and Stax and all the other goodies. Perhaps next time... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/799815/can-con-6-impressions-thread-27th-february-2016


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Good review of Elise @ostewart  it's not easy describing how a tube amp sounds but you made a very good attempt at it and as usual, beautiful photography from you.
> 
> When I first saw the Chord Mojo, I was quite shocked at how small it is but it looks extremely cute. It was at a meet with a lot of goodies but there was a lot of interest and people were waiting their turns with the Mojo. Unfortunately I missed trying it as I got myself busy with the Blue Hawaii and Stax and all the other goodies. Perhaps next time...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, I think you would like Mojo. Chord uses a novel in-house approach to D/A conversion, which I don't really understand, but it doesn't sound processed and 'digital'.
 Very natural sounding, music flowing effortlessly. Mojo's sound stage is average, not constricted though, and Elise and suitable cans can open up the sound if need-be.
 It's amazing how much power can be engendered from a small battery. Mojo's sound has even been favourably compared to Hugo's.


----------



## richdytch

Tell you what, there's nothing quite like Mullard 6080 and early 50s Ken Rad 6sn7 for dirty late night dance music. The warmth, the funkiness and the silly sub bass of that combo is amazing. I have had to turn off my sub.

Sorry for random unrelated interjections after weeks of silence. Too busy generally for intenet stuff.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Tell you what, there's nothing quite like Mullard 6080 and early 50s Ken Rad 6sn7 for dirty late night dance music. The warmth, the funkiness and the silly sub bass of that combo is amazing. I have had to turn off my sub.
> 
> Sorry for random unrelated interjections after weeks of silence. Too busy generally for intenet stuff.


 

 I shall try that when I get the Ken Rads. Meanwhile I'll try with RCA 6sn7gt VT231 smoke glass and Mullard 6080. The RCAs have a strong bass too. Let's see if my morning becomes late night dance music.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright the Billie Jean test. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Bass is very strong but is overpowering the high ends using my modded HD650. Swap to T1 and the details came on crystal clear. It's night time dance music now but it's morning at 9am !!! What am I doing with Billie Jean.


----------



## mordy

Hi louisxiawei,
  
 It seems to me that the average life span of most tubes is 3000-5000 hours. Some tubes are engineered with longer lasting heaters for a life span of 10,000 hours. Examples are the EL3N, GE Five Star tubes (7,500 hours), Amperex PQ, Sylvania Gold, and Russian tubes with a DR designation. ( Russian tubes with EV/EB designation are rated at 5000 hours.)
  
 Some Russian IR designation tubes are rated at 500 hours, but I think that this refers to a hostile environment inside a tank or fighter jet. (The Russians favored tubes long after others started using transistors since tubes are said to be less susceptible to interference from an atomic attack than transistors).
  
 Be it what it may be, except for dropping and smashing a couple of (expensive) tubes in some seven years of tube rolling, I cannot say that I have worn out or used up any tubes. My amp is on 3-8 hours a day.
  
 Regarding tube readings being uneven, I do not put to much weight to it. Since the Elise uses double dual triodes as drivers, according to Feliks, having unevenly balanced tubes may only affect the sound stage somewhat - doesn't seem that small differences are important.
  
 Hi David,
  
 To me the tube glow is only an added bonus, but unimportant. Some of the best tubes have a very faint or no glow (EL3N/C3g with shield are examples), and some tubes which are veritable fireworks are poor sounding (Shuguang 6N5P as an example) .
  
 For years I stayed away from tubes because it seemed to difficult to deal with short life spans, biasing and fragility. However, today I am not afraid of these things, and today's amps are usually self-biasing (OK - I am still afraid of dropping an expensive tube). My tube amps have brought me tremendous listening pleasure and opened up a new world of musical enjoyment.
  
  
 In closing, something changed.......
  
 It seems to me that 6080 power tubes that did not sound special in the beginning of my Elise ownership are now sounding much better. What could be the cause?
  
 1) I have changed
 2) The amp has changed
 3) I am using other than stock drivers
  
 What do you think?


----------



## UntilThen

It's the seasons changing and 6080s are in bloom this Spring.

I've got EL3N and 7236 in now and I know I've not changed. I prefer these over the RCAs and Mullards.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Just compared the 1960 RCA 6080 tubes to the 1959 Tung Sol 7236 tubes. It is somewhat difficult for me to describe the differences - more like musical vs analytical. The TS tubes have better delineated bass and better instrument separation and clarity, but the RCAs are quicker and more dynamic with better mid range and treble and are more lively.
  
 Could boil down to a matter of taste, but IMHO, with the EL3N as drivers there is no need to hunt down expensive TS 7236 tubes; the inexpensive and plentiful RCA 6080 tubes do a great job. The sound of the RCA 6080s is somewhere between the TS and Mullards, paired with the EL3Ns.
  
 As always, YMMV....
  
 Flavor of the day: RCA 6080? Nah, IMHO this flavor is here to stay. Delicious......
  
 And as I stated before, the TS tubes don't lead to the same degree of involuntary toe tapping........


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Just compared the 1960 RCA 6080 tubes to the 1959 Tung Sol 7236 tubes. It is somewhat difficult for me to describe the differences - more like musical vs analytical. The TS tubes have better delineated bass and better instrument separation and clarity, but the RCAs are quicker and more dynamic with better mid range and treble and are more lively.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Mordy,
  
 Is this the tube or does it have red lettering, or is it a 6080WA?  There appears to be a lot of different versions of RCA 6080's. Thanks.
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RCA-6080-Vacuum-tube-tested-good-/282154477110?hash=item41b1b7a636:g:72MAAOSwJkJWjpcm


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 It looks the same, but mine is a rebranded RCA tube:
  
  




  
 (There is another picture of it in post 2223)


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> It looks the same, but mine is a rebranded RCA tube:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Mordy-  it's so difficult with re-brands- can you direct me to post 2223- not sure where to find that. Sorry for being a pest but want to be sure I buy the correct tube.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Thanks Mordy-  it's so difficult with re-brands- can you direct me to post 2223- not sure where to find that. Sorry for being a pest but want to be sure I buy the correct tube.




I think he meant this:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/1710#post_12849079


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> I think he meant this:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/1710#post_12849079


 
  
 Cheers, Oskar.
  
 They do look similar to my Raytheons: (allowing for my lousy photography):


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Cheers, Oskar.
> 
> They do look similar to my Raytheons: (allowing for my lousy photography):




Similar but not exactly the same.

See here as well:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/1665#post_11749786


----------



## DecentLevi

louisxiawei said:


> Hey gents,
> 
> Hope you are enjoying your lovely weekend. I have a few noob questions just coming to my mind.
> 
> ...


 
 Personally I think matching of tubes is overrated. Several of us, such as with the '2031' and one of my 6J5 combinations were shown to have better synergy together than a matched pair. I'd say matching of tubes has more to do with channel balance. I've gotten awful results from combining an EL3N and a 6SN7 in each driver slot, but something more similar such as a 5998 and a 6080 in each of the power slots would likely be less of a stretch. The other main reason for matched pairs is to have identical sound attributes in each channel, but combining the strengths of two different tubes of relative similarity is sometimes able to yield a better overall result.
 I'd like to encourage us to try mixing & matching, to see what sonic flavors can be had from your existing batch.
  
 I think the lifespan of a tube is different for various models, and can vary greatly depending on the condition and how it was cared for, and how hot it gets. I have only had about 1 of 40 tubes die on me out of the last 2 years.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Similar but not exactly the same.
> 
> See here as well:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/1665#post_11749786


 
  
 Oh yes I see now the upper mica spacer is different for a start.
  
 It's too hit and miss to risk buying on this one-unlikely to get an identical tube.


----------



## mordy

Yes Oskari - that's it.
  





  
 Hi H13,
  
 The main thing is that it is a RCA tube; the rebranded name is not important. In the old days, if you ordered 1000 tubes you could get your own name on it.
 - I don't mind any questions at all.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Yes Oskari - that's it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  OK I'm going to get two RCA's -YAY!


----------



## DecentLevi

Trying to accelerate burn-in of my new Mullard 6080's, I've left them on overnight with a large fan blowing directly on the Elise to prevent overheating since these thicker tubes can get enormously hot. And boy did this make a massive difference in amp / tube temperature. Without any testing equipment I would take a vague guess that it cooled these tubes from about 250f all the way down to around 100f, and the whole amp was stone cold rather than borderlining dangerously hot.
  
 But then it struck me: how can you burn-in a tube without letting it, well... 'burn'? So I'd like to pose the question to any of you, whether burning in a tube with a cool temperature has any positive effect vs. while it's hot?
  
 Also since I'm just newly dealing with baking-hot tubes for the first time, I'd like to ask how can I tell (without any testing equipment) if I'm getting too close to the point of frying my amp from hot temperatures? Both 6080's I've tried have been getting so hot, in my room that's already around 85f, that it's been making the Elise almost too hot to touch.


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 During the day today I tried two other non-identical RCA 6080 pairs. One pair was from 1956 and 1959 (RCA/HP rebrand) and another pair from 1962/1966. They all sounded similar so I would not be afraid of not getting the same performance. These tubes are all used. Three of the four sounded fine; one was a little tired (lower volume). No tubes had a WA or WB designation.
  
 I do not have the equipment to measure them. In general, I have had very few problems with bad tubes. I have come to the conclusion that the tube somebody found in an estate sale and is selling for $5 may be the same tube that a professional seller will sell for $15 or $20.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 I got an inexpensive laser infrared thermometer (less than $13) that is easy to use. You just point it to what you want to measure. When you pull the trigger a red dot shows on the object. By moving the gun around you can find the highest temperature, and the screen will lock in on that temperature, as well as showing you the current temperature.
  
 https://www.amazon.com/Nubee-Non-contact-Infrared-Thermometer-Temperature/dp/B00JA3BMDW/ref=zg_bs_15707501_2
  




  
 In addition, I use socket savers that act as insulators and lower the chassis temperature. If you go to the specs of a tube, it will tell you the maximum operating temperature. Using a fan the 6080 tubes will still remain quite hot inside, but even a small fan may bring down the temperature at least 20F. I use a 4" PC fan inside my equipment rack mounted so that it pulls away the air instead of blowing on the amp.


----------



## Spork67

decentlevi said:


> Trying to accelerate burn-in of my new Mullard 6080's, I've left them on overnight with a large fan blowing directly on the Elise to prevent overheating since these thicker tubes can get enormously hot. And boy did this make a massive difference in amp / tube temperature. Without any testing equipment I would take a vague guess that it cooled these tubes from about 250f all the way down to around 100f, and the whole amp was stone cold rather than borderlining dangerously hot.
> 
> But then it struck me: how can you burn-in a tube without letting it, well... 'burn'? So I'd like to pose the question to any of you, whether burning in a tube with a cool temperature has any positive effect vs. while it's hot?
> 
> Also since I'm just newly dealing with baking-hot tubes for the first time, I'd like to ask how can I tell (without any testing equipment) if I'm getting too close to the point of frying my amp from hot temperatures? Both 6080's I've tried have been getting so hot, in my room that's already around 85f, that it's been making the Elise almost too hot to touch.


 
 You could try a cheap digital thermometer with the probe inserted into Elise through one of the air holes in the bottom to see what the internal temps are like.
 These would be more relevant than just the surface temp of the top plate.


----------



## mordy

Hi Sp67,
  
 Ah, technology... Put my amp on the side and directed the laser dot inside the amp. The hottest spot was around 60C/140F. This is fan cooled. At the same time the hottest spot on the RCA 6080 was 96C/205F.
  
 The 7236 should not exceed 150C/302F so it looks like a good margin.


----------



## DecentLevi

Here's some up close photos of my Raytheon 6080 tubes that I've been raving about in recent days, so you can see the differences between these and the RCA's. I find the sound to be authoritative, expansive, coherent, clean, tonally correct and with grand imaging / layering. Actually slightly closer to 'dry' / solid state than the Mullards.


----------



## UntilThen

You have got the graphite plates similar to Bendix 6080wb. Not surprising it sounds good.

That's a good find if you have gotten it cheap.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> During the day today I tried two other non-identical RCA 6080 pairs. One pair was from 1956 and 1959 (RCA/HP rebrand) and another pair from 1962/1966. They all sounded similar so I would not be afraid of not getting the same performance. These tubes are all used. Three of the four sounded fine; one was a little tired (lower volume). No tubes had a WA or WB designation.
> 
> I do not have the equipment to measure them. In general, I have had very few problems with bad tubes. I have come to the conclusion that the tube somebody found in an estate sale and is selling for $5 may be the same tube that a professional seller will sell for $15 or $20.


 
  
 Thanks for the info Mordy. I'll purchase a couple of '60's RCA branded They are cheap enough anyway.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 Those Raytheons are not RCA or Raytheon, but Bendix graphite tubes as UT says - congrats.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yeah, checking on eBay I noticed other similar looking RCA & Raytheon 6080's, but not quite identical because they didn't seem to have those long soft looking dark grey beams in the middle. I don't know why they heck it has a Raytheon label if it's Bendix
  
 So there you have it, it's gotta have the graphite plates in order to sound like mine.
  
 It's amazing how many tubes that were meant for other applications can happen to be so finely tuned for audio


----------



## UntilThen

Too right. The 7236 were meant to power computer tape drives but who would use tape drives these days. So the 7236 were given to us tube lovers.
  
 My jewels of the Nile finally arrived. I was going to report it as missing in action but they came and in such huge boxes I thought I had received some giant power tubes. Look at the box sizes compared to the EL3N box.
  


 The tubes are so new and the pins so sturdy, they insert into the sockets firmly and feels very secure. I've never seen such new tubes before. Once I flick the switch, it lights up for the first time in its life with a glow. Notice they are a bit shorter than the Tung Sol 7236 and the gold band at the bottom is narrower too. 
  
 Now the sound... can't detect any difference with the Tung Sol, perhaps a touch firmer but that's because it's still brand new. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I do like the sound of EL3N and 7236 together.


----------



## UntilThen

Kind of like her new album... yet to be released.


----------



## Spork67

My first "aftermarket" tubes arrived today.
 EL3N's - thanks for the link to the shop @UntilThen
 Now I just have to wait for the adapters to arrive...


----------



## whirlwind

decentlevi said:


> Here's some up close photos of my Raytheon 6080 tubes that I've been raving about in recent days, so you can see the differences between these and the RCA's. I find the sound to be authoritative, expansive, coherent, clean, tonally correct and with grand imaging / layering. Actually slightly closer to 'dry' / solid state than the Mullards.


 
 Ha ha ha....no wonder these sound so good to you....these are Bendix rebrands...great find and congrats on these.
  
 These tubes are wonderful, and are built like a tank.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> The Voice




  
 Aaahhh, thanks cf...voice _*plus*_ instrumentals...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...especially on "Book of Secrets" and "An Ancient Muse"...some of my favourite music/performances of all time lol!...CHEERS!...


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Yeah, checking on eBay I noticed other similar looking RCA & Raytheon 6080's, but not quite identical because they didn't seem to have those long soft looking dark grey beams in the middle. I don't know why they heck it has a Raytheon label if it's Bendix
> 
> So there you have it, it's gotta have the graphite plates in order to sound like mine.
> 
> It's amazing how many tubes that were meant for other applications can happen to be so finely tuned for audio


 
  
 As @whirlwind says...LUCKY YOU!...those things normally cost a bomb LOL! The dead giveaway are those beefy looking metal mica supports - built like a tank! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. And purportedly in a different league entirely to the humble RCA...well done!


----------



## hypnos1

ostewart said:


> Review is finally up:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise/reviews/16814


 
  
 I'm a bit late, but great review Stewart...thanks for taking the time and trouble to add to the already excellent reviews...WELL DONE! I'm sure this one will attract even more folks to consider Elise in their (difficult these days!) choice of HP amp....CHEERS!...


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Howdie everybody,
> 
> Just to make it clear before I get outed later, lol, to my shame, I do not own an Elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great to hear from you A11 - any contribution, regardless, is always welcome from such a well-established head-fi member...even if you have taken a well-deserved 'break' for a while! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and mille grazie for your recommendation of the PowerInspired AG500 "Regenerator" by the way...tremendous value-for-money, not to mention great product LOL!...CHEERS!).
  
 That Chord Mojo sure does look very interesting...incredible such a small thing can perform to such a degree. Those Chord people do make some very nice gear...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...we shall indeed have to get together some time to compare things - would be very interesting to see how it stacks up against my tube DAC...not to mention Elise + ECC31 (or EL3N) + GEC CV2523 vs your (still?) very good Questyle Current Mode amp!
  
 Hope you have other news of interest for us soon...
  
 Best, CJ


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> My first "aftermarket" tubes arrived today.
> EL3N's - thanks for the link to the shop @UntilThen
> Now I just have to wait for the adapters to arrive...


 

 You are welcome. Let's see what you think of the EL3Ns. It's pretty much what I use these days, despite the many drivers that I have. It's no wonder @aqsw and @connieflyer sold off their other drivers and just use these. There are many others who love them too. There's not much heat from this setup which is a bonus.


----------



## connieflyer

@hypnos1 have you heard this one ?


----------



## mordy

I inquired re the AG500 regenerator for 120V use:
  
_"It is unlikely that we will have a 120V in the next year or so. We did a feasibility study into producing the USA version but it was uneconomical however we haven't ruled it out completely."_
  
 Does anybody have recommendations for a 120V regenarator that is reasonably priced?


----------



## Riverstalker

Hello everybody,
  
 my name is Max and after reading all threads over and over about the "holy Elise" I pulled the trigger ...
 Feliks Audio was able to send it to me within two weeks, # 78 it is.
  
 She is so nice to look at and the sound is just wonderful. Right now I use her as a preamp but I had a short listen with my friends hd650. So nice ))
 Thanks to all of you guys, Untilthen, Jazz, connieflyer, hypnos and so on for doing all the spadework. So many pages to read LOL
  
 I skip the crazy tube rolling for now but will do that later. The stock tubes are quite stunning for me.
  
 Long story short: wonderful little amp, nice contact with Lukasz and a very happy customer !
  
 Greets from Germany
  
 Cheers Max


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> @hypnos1 have you heard this one ?




  
 No, cf...haven't heard it before_*...sadly!...*_just gorgeous! - as is the video. Many thanks...(yet another CD to get LOL!)..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> I inquired re the AG500 regenerator for 120V use:
> 
> _"It is unlikely that we will have a 120V in the next year or so. We did a feasibility study into producing the USA version but it was uneconomical however we haven't ruled it out completely."_
> 
> Does anybody have recommendations for a 120V regenarator that is reasonably priced?


 
  
 Suspected as much M...sad, to be sure...doubt there's anything similar out your way anywhere near the price! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but GOOD LUCK!...


----------



## hypnos1

riverstalker said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> my name is Max and after reading all threads over and over about the "holy Elise" I pulled the trigger ...
> Feliks Audio was able to send it to me within two weeks, # 78 it is.
> ...


 
  
 WELL DONE! Max...and welcome to our friendly club.
  
 So glad you too are enthralled by this wonderful amp - as is pretty well everybody else LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Yo...take things gradually - experimentation can indeed come later...take your time to enjoy Elise fully. And yes indeed, stock configuration is excellent already...
  
 Many pages for sure - 3 threads and thousands of posts do certainly need a fair investment of time...but again, taken gradually, is well worth the effort IMHO - lots of good info (and FUN!) to be found.
  
 Perhaps you'll give us more impressions as you get further down the road, lol!...CHEERS!...


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> my name is Max and after reading all threads over and over about the "holy Elise" I pulled the trigger ...
> Feliks Audio was able to send it to me within two weeks, # 78 it is.
> ...


 
  
 I have to chuckle reading this. You read all the Elise threads over and over? I have to try that someday .... might get me into a fit. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alright let me start again, with the laughter over.
  
 Congrats @Riverstalker  on being a happy owner of Elise. Glad you came back and told us so by registering on Head-Fi and with the first post. Brilliant.
  
 At least we know we ain't kidding ourselves when we say Elise sounds beautiful. Thanks for the feedback. Do share more of your experiences.


----------



## connieflyer

Welcome to the forum @*Riverstalker, I am glad you are liking what we regard as a great like amp.  Tube rolling can be alot of fun, but also expensive, if you get carried away (voice of experience), so just take your time enjoy what you have as the default and when you get ready , try to decide what you want to improve on. Lots of good tubes some expensive, some not so much, but they all add just a slightly different flavor to the amp.  Great group of members here and helpful as well, enjoy the journey, Don*


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Great to hear from you A11 - any contribution, regardless, is always welcome from such a well-established head-fi member...even if you have taken a well-deserved 'break' for a while! :wink_face: ...(and mille grazie for your recommendation of the PowerInspired AG500 "Regenerator" by the way...tremendous value-for-money, not to mention great product LOL!...CHEERS!).
> 
> That Chord Mojo sure does look very interesting...incredible such a small thing can perform to such a degree. Those Chord people do make some very nice gear... ...we shall indeed have to get together some time to compare things - would be very interesting to see how it stacks up against my tube DAC...not to mention Elise + ECC31 (or EL3N) + GEC CV2523 vs your (still?) very good Questyle Current Mode amp!
> 
> ...




Thanks for the friendly welcome. Yes, I have been on a low head-fi flame for a while and the Mojo with a nice cable was my biggest upgrade. The Questyle is still doing well 
Didn't want to hijack the thread  but I just wanted to share my impressions with a potentially interested audience and this looked like a nice place. 
I very much look forward re-convening to mix and match our gear!
Cheers


----------



## mordy

Currently viewing:
  
 US, UK, AU, Finland, Sweden - wow! The globe is shrinking.....


----------



## geetarman49

mordy said:


> Currently viewing:
> 
> US, UK, AU, Finland, Sweden - wow! The globe is shrinking.....


 

 oh, come on ... is canuckland forgotten so soon?


----------



## richdytch

I just paid for 4x Rayethon or 4x RCA 6080... used. Sent them a note saying 2 of each would be great, but failing that I'd go for RCA. Can't moan at £20.


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Thanks for the friendly welcome. Yes, I have been on a low head-fi flame for a while and the Mojo with a nice cable was my biggest upgrade. The Questyle is still doing well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 No danger of hijacking us, A11...we have developed a wonderful Elise community here, where all manner of subjects are covered...as you must have gathered by now!
  
 For the benefit of all who may not know, you are very much instrumental in the genesis of what in fact finally resulted in the birth of 'Elise'...your knowledge, advice and enthusiasm over at the LittleDot Rolling Guide thread helped inspire my own continued interest and later experimentation with our tubed headphone amps. Without such assistance and friendship - as is here in abundance also LOL! - I probably would have ground to a halt in this hobby of ours a long while ago...actually, 'hobby' is almost an insulting word for the magical journey I have experienced for some years now, and which I never dreamt could be thus. I'm quite sure I am not the only one to feel this way either, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 And so, therefore, without said inspiration I probably would never have reached the point where I could even think of contemplating the idea of approaching someone - Feliks-Audio, fortunately! - to consider making a completely new headphone amp (which I never dreamt they would actually do...but dear Lukasz had faith in the idea and managed to convince the rest of the FA team to pursue it. The rest is history, as they say!). Thus, mon ami, the Elise community owes you also a certain degree of gratitude for what we are all enjoying way beyond expectation..._*I*_ certainly thank you A11...CHEERS!...and goodnight...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CJ


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup, it sure was a lucky chance I got a rebranded Brimar Bendix 6080 for only $20, already burned in. I have had no desire to roll other power tubes since receiving it - not even my 'Christmas tree' setup, but I'll eventually compare the two. Though I have tried to burn-in my Mullard 6080's just to try & wake them up a little, yet they've already got at least 24 hours and are not comparable. I've got a feeling the only way to scale this ladder even higher would be with the GEC Osram, and really the main word here is 'relic'/
  
 Apologies for anyone who I've hyped about the RCA 6080's. Turns out I've never actually tried a pair yet, but at least Mordy says they're solid performers. There doesn't seem to be any other Brimar's floating around now, but I think perhaps the graphite plates make all the difference so maybe somebody can find another compatible driver / power tube with graphites also.


----------



## DecentLevi

@Acapella11 finally there's someone in our neck of the woods who knows of Questyle. I'm absolutely adorned with the sound of their portable DAP / DAC QP1R. Have you tried it yet? And do you have anything to say about the sound of their DAC's?
  
 Also I have to admit that EL3N's really do improve with extended burn-in. Now with (somewhere around) 300 hours on two of mine as drivers, seems I'm hearing improved dynamics and overall clarity. Interestingly I also have 6 others which are barely burned in, so later I can compare the burned in with the NOS versions for any tangible difference


----------



## mordy

Hi gman49,
  
 What I meant was that I was only referring to the people looking at the thread this afternoon - there are many other members from many other countries, including Canada and the city with the world's largest indoor mall...
  
 We have members from Tasmania, France, Germany, Denmark, China etc etc - indeed a shrinking globe.
  
 Here is a long word: Serendipitous. It means that something was found by chance and unintended - occurring or discovered by chance in a happy or beneficial way.
  
 DL spoke about great sounding  RCA tubes that really were Bendix 6080WB tubes, and I dusted off some old RCA 6080 tubes that I had. And discovered that they work beautifully with the EL3N tubes.
  
 Awaiting others to try this combination - won't empty the wallet.


----------



## richdytch

decentlevi said:


> @Acapella11
> finally there's someone in our neck of the woods who knows of Questyle. I'm absolutely adorned with the sound of their portable DAP / DAC QP1R. Have you tried it yet? And do you have anything to say about the sound of their DAC's?
> 
> Also I have to admit that EL3N's really do improve with extended burn-in. Now with (somewhere around) 300 hours on two of mine as drivers, seems I'm hearing improved dynamics and overall clarity. Interestingly I also have 6 others which are barely burned in, so later I can compare the burned in with the NOS versions for any tangible difference




Hi DL. Agree on the improvement in el3n over very long usage. I still use individual EL3Ns as power tubes, and while they still don't have as much slam as something like 6as7g,they have definitely improved. A lot more dynamic.


----------



## Spork67

I'm waiting for adapters to arrive for my EL3Ns, meanwhile a cheap pair of Phillips 6080s arrived today, and this evening i "rolled my first tubes".
 They have approx 15 minutes running time, after a 10 minute warm up. (Very) early impressions - they aren't bad at all. Don't know if they are an improvement over stock, but guessing they may improve with more hours on them. Certainly an economical alternative.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I'm waiting for adapters to arrive for my EL3Ns, meanwhile a cheap pair of Phillips 6080s arrived today, and this evening i "rolled my first tubes".
> They have approx 15 minutes running time, after a 10 minute warm up. (Very) early impressions - they aren't bad at all. Don't know if they are an improvement over stock, but guessing they may improve with more hours on them. Certainly an economical alternative.


 

 That's right. You'll find most tubes sounds good on Elise. Proceed slow and enjoy various tubes. 
  
 After months, I'm still enjoying EL3N and Chatham 6520 with T1 G1. Modded HD650 is being rested as I wash the ear pads. It's a bi-monthly ritual.


----------



## frederick-rea

I bought this to rest assured
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s28__blmbkM


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> That's right. You'll find most tubes sounds good on Elise. Proceed slow and enjoy various tubes.
> 
> *After months, I'm still enjoying EL3N and Chatham 6520 with T1 G1*. Modded HD650 is being rested as I wash the ear pads. It's a bi-monthly ritual.


 
  
 Well, UT...looks like we weren't fooling ourselves either about the need for the EL3N to have a good, _*long*_ burn-in to give of its best...nice to have that confirmation, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








...
  
 And what d'ya know, Glenn (of Glenn amps) - who chose the EL3N to feed his expensive Lundahl output transformers - rates the sound as good as using 300Bs, which are _vastly_ more expensive of course. Praise indeed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Just out of interest, I thought I'd revisit my Heed CanAmp that I thought quite good before I ventured into tube land...and oh dear, mixed feelings! My new DAC and AC Regenerator - plus T1s - certainly raised its game...but *OMG*, compared to Elise - flat as a (single!) pancake, dead as a Dodo LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All the notes seem pretty well there, but a prime example of showcasing that audiophile term "layers"...in comparison, Elise has _multiple_ pancakes, stacked between delicate layers of golden honey...in a word : _*delicious!*_ This aspect, along with all the other obvious downsides of a (much) less-than-high-end SS headphone amp leave me so disappointed, five minutes is all I can stand, alas.
  
 This really has brought home just what a fabulous sound Elise delivers, at a very reasonable cost indeed...there's no going back!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...VIVE L'ELISE!!...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Well, UT...looks like we weren't fooling ourselves either about the need for the EL3N to have a good, _*long*_ burn-in to give of its best...nice to have that confirmation, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Indeed. Which really makes me wonder the past objections to EL3N about it having no treble or less layers than 6SN7 ..... did those guys _REALLY_ give these tubes a chance? Did they really burn it in? ... and I don't mean 50 to 100 hours. I'm talking more like 300 to 400 hours. 
  
 I've well exceeded 400 hours now. Probably double that. Since Jan this year, EL3N has been in the drivers slot most of the time. I use the amp practically everyday. What I'm hearing are crystal clear details, superb soundstage and a full on _BIG_ euphonic sound compared to 6SN7.
  
 I thought the Sylvania 6SN7wgt which I bought were a good redemption but they sit in the drawers now. EL3N gets playtime this past 2 weeks. I wasn't even conscious of that but I feel no compulsion to swap out the EL3Ns. All I did was alternate the power tubes.  Even the ECC31s are in cold storage. I did not even spin in C3G and 5998, which I reckon were very good.
  
 Glenn's specialized EL3Ns tube amp is desirable, especially with those really nice transformers. 
  
 I'm hoping that Feliks Audio will consider designing a tube amp around those EL3N and at $1000 or below price point. Imagine running those EL3Ns without the need for adapters. Then I'll buy one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So mon ami, can you talk to them? Hahahaha.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
  
 ps... I would want to see a tube amp running 6 EL3Ns.


----------



## pctazhp

Ditto @hypnos1 and @UntilThen on the EL3Ns as drivers.


----------



## mordy

And who is sitting in the bathtub over here?
  




  
 The red livree Austrian honor guard....
  
 PS: Come to think about about it, since we have such an international following, do you understand my attempt to make a little joke?
 Bathtub?
 Livree?
 Austria?
 Questions will be answered promptly, if need be (with the help of Google translate) into your own language.
  

```
[left] 红色Livrée酒店奥仪仗队....[/left]
```


```
[left] Hóngsè Livrée jiǔdiàn ào yízhàngduì....[/left]
```
  

```
[left] Punainen Livree itävaltalainen kunnia vartija ....[/left]
```


```
[left]  [/left]
```
  

```
[left] Die rote Livree österreichische Ehrenwache ....[/left]
```
  

```

```


```
[left] Le livree rouge honneur autrichienne garde ....[/left]
```
  

```

```


```
[left] Czerwona Livree strażnik austriackie wyróżnienie ....[/left]
```
  

```

```


```
[left] Den röda Livree österrikiska hedersvakt ....[/left]
```
  

```

```


```
[left] Den røde Livree østrigske ære vagt ....[/left]
```


```
[left] Красный Livree Австрийский почетного караула ....[/left]
```


```
[left] Krasnyy Livree Avstriyskiy pochetnogo karaula ....[/left]
```
  

```

```


```
[left] A piros Livree osztrák díszőrség ....[/left]
```
  

```

```


```
[right] و livree الأحمر حرس الشرف النمساوي ....[/right]
```


```
[left] w livree al'ahmar haras alshsharaf alnnamsawi ....[/left]
```


```

```


```

```


```

```


```

```


```

```


```

```


```

```


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1 you are right again about ss amp vs Elise. I thought that the NAD d1050 sounded pretty good with Beyer T1. So did this reviewer. http://www.head-fi.org/t/713161/nad-d1050-dac-and-headphone-amplifier
  
 However with NAD d1050 doing DAC duties and Elise as amp, it takes the T1 to another level. Simply astonishing. I get ask this many times in private messages. Is it worth getting Elise if one already has the NAD d1050. My answer is an unequivocal YES.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> And who is sitting in the bathtub over here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Clever d***k mordy...nice one! - colour co-ordination certainly helps assuage the bathtub-sized adapter LOL!!
  
 Glad you too are an EL3N convert...impeccable taste!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Indeed. Which really makes me wonder the past objections to EL3N about it having no treble or less layers than 6SN7 ..... did those guys _REALLY_ give these tubes a chance? Did they really burn it in? ... and I don't mean 50 to 100 hours. I'm talking more like 300 to 400 hours.
> 
> I've well exceeded 400 hours now. Probably double that. Since Jan this year, EL3N has been in the drivers slot most of the time. I use the amp practically everyday. What I'm hearing are crystal clear details, superb soundstage and a full on _BIG_ euphonic sound compared to 6SN7.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, UT, the idea of a properly EL3N configured - and socketed - Elise sure sounds good...BUT, as Glenn himself says, this then means _*no further tube rolling*_, alas!...which, despite this tube's merits, could very well not appeal to all LOL!. The only really attractive option would, of course, necessitate provision for _*two*_ different types of drivers...which would entail considerable alteration to the current chassis construction/topology etc, and all that would imply. Great for _*us*_, but would, I suspect, be a step too far, practically and economically speaking for _*them!!*_...the tragic realities of life alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## richdytch

hypnos1 said:


> Well, UT, the idea of a properly EL3N configured - and socketed - Elise sure sounds good...BUT, as Glenn himself says, this then means _*no further tube rolling*_, alas!...which, despite this tube's merits, could very well not appeal to all LOL!. The only really attractive option would, of course, necessitate provision for _*two*_ different types of drivers...which would entail considerable alteration to the current chassis construction/topology etc, and all that would imply. Great for _*us*_, but would, I suspect, be a step too far, practically and economically speaking for _*them!!*_...the tragic realities of life alas... ...




if that happens I'm going into business making reversed el3n to 6sn7 adapters


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Well, UT, the idea of a properly EL3N configured - and socketed - Elise sure sounds good...BUT, as Glenn himself says, this then means _*no further tube rolling*_, alas!...which, despite this tube's merits, could very well not appeal to all LOL!. The only really attractive option would, of course, necessitate provision for _*two*_ different types of drivers...which would entail considerable alteration to the current chassis construction/topology etc, and all that would imply. Great for _*us*_, but would, I suspect, be a step too far, practically and economically speaking for _*them!!*_...the tragic realities of life alas...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 After almost one year with Elise, you kind of know which tube combination appeals to you. I am at a stage now where I spend more time listening to music than listening to tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 No more tube rolling for me but I won't deny others the joy of discovery. In fact I would encourage them to do so. Although it means spending more on tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

richdytch said:


> if that happens I'm going into business making reversed el3n to 6sn7 adapters


 
 You win this week's pctazhp Best Laugh of the Week award


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> Yup, it sure was a lucky chance I got a rebranded Brimar 6080 for only $20, already burned in.




So, Brimar equals Bendix?


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 And then there is always the GEC A1834......
  
 Haven't given up on a $100 pair under the OM label (but don't tell anybody about it...)


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> No danger of hijacking us, A11...we have developed a wonderful Elise community here, where all manner of subjects are covered...as you must have gathered by now!
> 
> For the benefit of all who may not know, you are very much instrumental in the genesis of what in fact finally resulted in the birth of 'Elise'...your knowledge, advice and enthusiasm over at the LittleDot Rolling Guide thread helped inspire my own continued interest and later experimentation with our tubed headphone amps. Without such assistance and friendship - as is here in abundance also LOL! - I probably would have ground to a halt in this hobby of ours a long while ago...actually, 'hobby' is almost an insulting word for the magical journey I have experienced for some years now, and which I never dreamt could be thus. I'm quite sure I am not the only one to feel this way either, lol!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey H1, thank you , yes, the good ol' LD times, I enjoyed the journey with you and everyone on the thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Friendly and civilised discussions, always enjoyable. This has transpired into this thread.
 With respect to tube rolling and journey: tube rolling just has a great element of constant learning, surprises and addiction to it, lol.
  
 Has Feliks ever commented on how well the Elise performed against their expectations? Have you talked to them about an EL3N amp  Seems like I need to look into hearing this after all, lol 
  
 Good night and keep rolling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


decentlevi said:


> @Acapella11 finally there's someone in our neck of the woods who knows of Questyle. I'm absolutely adorned with the sound of their portable DAP / DAC QP1R. Have you tried it yet? And do you have anything to say about the sound of their DAC's?
> 
> Also I have to admit that EL3N's really do improve with extended burn-in. Now with (somewhere around) 300 hours on two of mine as drivers, seems I'm hearing improved dynamics and overall clarity. Interestingly I also have 6 others which are barely burned in, so later I can compare the burned in with the NOS versions for any tangible difference


 
  
 Hi DecentLevi, yes, I have my Questyle since a while now and I am loving it with my HD800 or HE-500 but I have unfortunately no experience with their portable gear or DACs. Their TrueDSD technology sounds very tempting and there was a good CAS192D review on Head-fi by project86, which you probably have read already long time back...


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> And then there is always the GEC A1834......
> 
> Haven't given up on a $100 pair under the OM label (but don't tell anybody about it...)


 

 If you can get it for $100 a pair sure. I might even visit you in Sweden. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However not at the price GEC 6AS7G is commanding these days. I just don't think it's worth $400 a pair NOS.
  
 I'm thankful to the owner for the opportunity to listen to his setup below at the Sydney meet. It's good but it's also the first time I heard the Woo Audio Wa2 with Amperex Bugle Boys and GEC 6AS7G. It's also the first time I heard the HD800. It's also the first time I heard the Metrum Hex DAC. So it's a first for all the components there for me. It's a very quiet environment with just 15 of us in a big room. We're like students pouring over the head-fi setups, deep in concentration listening and without disturbance. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 However... a big BUT here... I didn't think it's way ahead of my Elise with Raytheon 7N7 and Tung Sol 5998 with T1. In fact depending on the genre and personal taste, you could prefer one over the other.
  
 There's no doubting this setup looks good too but it's at least 3 times the cost of my setup. As @hypnos1 said, if I had all EL3Ns in Elise, it might have generated more interest. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Next time.


----------



## UntilThen

At the expense of being smacked, I've to post this because I think Elise is a real stunner in looks and sound with these tubes and T1.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright, I've send off an email to Lukasz to consider designing a tube amp around the EL3Ns. Probably call it Scarlett O'hara.
  
 Let's see what he says.


----------



## DecentLevi

richdytch said:


> Hi DL. Agree on the improvement in el3n over very long usage. I still use individual EL3Ns as power tubes, and while they still don't have as much slam as something like 6as7g,they have definitely improved. A lot more dynamic.


 
 Myself and others actually prefer EL3N's as drivers (in the front). Give it a try also - unless that was a typo
  


oskari said:


> So, Brimar equals Bendix?


  
 I may have said Brimar instead of Bendix - another typo I guess, as I just learn those brands. Maybe there's also a good Brimar for the Elise too


----------



## DecentLevi

@UntilThen WAIT on that final proposal for Feliks Audio - how about proposing a balanced EL3N amp, and maybe some switcher to run either 6AS7GA / 5998 / 6080, and EL3N's natively as powers


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> @UntilThen WAIT on that final proposal for Feliks Audio - how about proposing a balanced EL3N amp, and maybe some switcher to run either 6AS7GA / 5998 / 6080, and EL3N's natively as powers


 

 It's not a FINAL proposal. It's a first email and it might solicit this response. 
  

  
 If Lukasz does reply, we can take it from there and give him our list of goodies and wish list. Remember don't add everything or it might cost more than the McIntosh headphone amp.
  
 That's eight thousand seven hundred and ninety five dollars in Aussie dollars I think and should ship in 48 to 72 hours.


----------



## DecentLevi

And it's also worth mentioning that almost all headphones are convertible to balanced - even those that don't have detachable cables. Feel free to inquire with me about some sources to do this


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1 mon ami where art thou? I'm gonna have to pass this bucket to you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 
  
 Lukasz replied and I didn't think it's so soon. This is the gist of what he said.
  
*He thanked me for my kind note and is happy to hear that Elise has been good to me and **Head-Fi is still going strong on it. Was very receptive to the EL3N idea and said that at the moment they are collecting ideas in the pipeline for future projects and this will be included in the list. Also mention that it's a late 2017 possibility and tempting.*
  
*Lastly, he ask what other features such an amp should have in comparison with Elise.*
  
 So there you go. You're good at this. You are the liaison man.


----------



## lukeap69

Do you still want it to be OTL UT?


----------



## richdytch

decentlevi said:


> Myself and others actually prefer EL3N's as drivers (in the front). Give it a try also - unless that was a typo


 
  
 Hi DL - it depends what mood I'm in - but I do often use single EL3Ns as power tubes, and it's in that configuration (with 6SN7 as drivers) that I've notice the EL3Ns maturing process most markedly. The way they've gained weight and settled down is very notable like that. But, I agree that they're still meatier and weightier when used as a driver for something else. EL3N driver, Chatham 6AS7G is currently my day-to-day setup, although if I'm binging on classical music - especially smaller ensembles, I use EL3N as a driver - the treble response, lack of distortion and general transparency is excellent.

 Rich


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Alright, I've send off an email to Lukasz to consider designing a tube amp around the EL3Ns. Probably call it Scarlett O'hara.
> 
> Let's see what he says.


 
  
 I only scan-read this article - must go through it properly - but if I got it correctly that this guy has a SET amp in which EL3N and 2A3 are interchangable, might that not be something worth achieving in an Elise-like amp? 
  
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/1108/


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> @UntilThen WAIT on that final proposal for Feliks Audio - how about proposing a balanced EL3N amp, and maybe some switcher to run either 6AS7GA / 5998 / 6080, and EL3N's natively as powers


 
  
 Hey DL...you're talking BIG time alterations to production line setups/chassis construction/component sourcing & cost etc.etc. - we've got to leave _some_ room for the poor ol' F-A guys to make a bit of profit LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Re. the balanced issue...this sure is one controversial hot potato. Once again, to go truly, _fully_ balanced is no small feat and many doubt the final cost/benefit ratio. I personally would not want to pay a hefty premium for such facility. Even Glenn, of Glenn amps cannot really understand this craze for 'balanced' setups - as he says, many _very_ hi-end amps are still single-ended!
  
 Anyway, I have indeed mentioned this to Lukasz before now, so it is already on their list of "considerations"...but don't hold your breath mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


untilthen said:


> @hypnos1 mon ami where art thou? I'm gonna have to pass this bucket to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...have also already mentioned about the possibility of "alternative" tubes, such as EL3N etc. - I really don't envy them their decisions of just where to go next, keeping in mind those production and cost hurdles, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I suspect there will be _many_ headache-inducing brainstorming sessions in the months to come!!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


lukeap69 said:


> Do you still want it to be OTL UT?


 
  
 Hi l69...yet another question for Lukasz to give his views on...interesting times ahead, methinks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> I only scan-read this article - must go through it properly - but if I got it correctly that this guy has a SET amp in which EL3N and 2A3 are interchangable, might that not be something worth achieving in an Elise-like amp?
> 
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/1108/


 

 I doubt he has an amp that can run both EL3N and 2A3 interchangeably but what he's saying is that the EL3N is the closest to 2A3 sound of all the triode strapped pentodes tested, which is high praise indeed. Some of the notable well known tube amps uses 2A3, such as DNA Stratus and an EC 2A3 model.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...have also already mentioned about the possibility of "alternative" tubes, such as EL3N etc. - I really don't envy them their decisions of just where to go next, keeping in mind those production and cost hurdles, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Right on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Every good movie has a sequel and it's good to know you'll be there for it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What I think needs to happen is possibly 2 new tube amps. One building on Elise and providing more features. The other is one where I like to see a dedicated EL3N tube amp. It's hard to build an amp that allows usage of the octal paddle feet and octal pins. It won't look good if you build a jack of all trades and I for one would like to see an aesthetically pleasing tube amp. Like a Michelangelo work of art.


----------



## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> Do you still want it to be OTL UT?


 

 I wouldn't know enough to want an OTL or LOT. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It just need 3 criteria.
  
 Good sound.
 Good looks.
 Not astronomically expensive.
  
 ... and a max 2 months waiting time.


----------



## DecentLevi

richdytch said:


> I only scan-read this article - must go through it properly - but if I got it correctly that this guy has a SET amp in which EL3N and 2A3 are interchangable, might that not be something worth achieving in an Elise-like amp?
> 
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/1108/


 
 I'm pretty sure that's a speaker amp, from the article.
  
 Anyway as we know, Glenn already has custom made a fine looking EL3N amp. Maybe all we need to do is nego. on the price and ask him to make more. I for one will only be getting an EL3N amp if it has options for other types of power tubes and preferrably balanced; as I've tried the 6x EL3N once again just recently only to confirm that for me; although it has an amazing soundstage and instrument separation, it seems too artificially euphonic (too much THD; total harmonic distortion) for my liking


----------



## hypnos1

Well, all you guys, what has me scratching my head - let alone the F-A folks no doubt! - is....given the number of Elises already out there now, just how big a market is there gonna be to warrant further high R&D costs, not to mention the gamble on what would undoubtedly necessitate a good bit higher eventual unit cost? Not the sort of decisions I personally would want to be facing, lol!...(once again I can already hear the heated debates going on between the Finance Director and Product Development gurus! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....). GOOD LUCK FELIKS-AUDIO!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> I'm pretty sure that's a speaker amp, from the article.
> 
> Anyway as we know, Glenn already has custom made a fine looking EL3N amp. Maybe all we need to do is nego. on the price and ask him to make more. I for one will only be getting an EL3N amp if it has options for other types of power tubes and preferrably balanced; as I've tried the 6x EL3N once again just recently only to confirm that for me; although it has an amazing soundstage and instrument separation, it seems too artificially euphonic (too much THD; total harmonic distortion) for my liking


 
 DL:  I'm curious as to what advantage you think you would achieve from a balanced amp in a desktop setting. As far as I know, the only possible advantage to a balanced headphone amp is more power and less crosstalk. I've had no problem powering my headphone with the Elise and it's amazing imaging suggests to me that its crosstalk is very low. Am I missing something?
  
 As @hypnos1 has pointed out, a true balanced amp can be quite an undertaking - meaning expensive. In addition, I would assume it would require twice the tubes as the current Elise (duplicate circuitry), and even now it is getting pretty difficult and expensive to find top performing tubes for our single ended Elise.
  
 Personally, I can't seem to get excited about an Elise successor. Maybe it's just because I'm a grumpy old man. But I love its sleek, classic design, simplicity of operation, wonderful sound quality, and tube-rolling adaptability. I can't see getting very excited about a large, expensive, balanced version, or one with switches to further accommodate tube-rolling or more inputs.
  
 If I were wanting to upgrade my amp (which I clearly do not) I think, from everything I have read, I would probably order one of Glenn's amps and settle in for the wait. But I certainly wouldn't expect him to grant me any special price-break. Why should he?
  
 Just my personal thoughts.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again folks...can't remember if this listing is one referred to a while back, but won't harm to repeat anyway - *AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!...ie.* : http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-6AS7G-5998-421A-TUBES-ENGLAND-TEST-NOS-/15223013534
  

  
 "Made in England?"...my a*s lol!!...more like a Russian rebrand...at an exorbitant price. I repeat...*DO NOT TOUCH!!!*...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## connieflyer

My thoughts on the idea of an El3N based amp, would be that, for F-A it would be another product to sell and grow the company, to better sustain it with a wider variety of products.  It would be desirable to be under $1000 but not necessarily  a must have.  If they came up with an amp that took full advantage of the EL3N tube, in multiples, and sounded better than the Elise, not going to be easy,  I would defiantly be a purchaser. My thoughts would be under $1500 as I would think that with out the tube rolling ability it would be more for people that are satisfied to just experience the sound and get  wrapped up in the music experience.  I don't see it as competing with the Elise, more as an upgrade. I am quite happy with the sound of the Elise using various tubes, and I really have no favorite.  Have been using the Siemens C3G's and Gold Aero 5998A's for sometime now and am very satisfied with their execution of the music. With an amp designed around the superior qualities of the EL3N I would be satisfied to not tube roll. Since getting the Elise I have spent more on tubes than the cost of the amp, so pricing for a dedicated El3N amp, being higher for a niche product would be fine with me.As far as balanced, I see the advantages but if every component is not a separate channel from source through all equipment to headphone, and that means separate power supplies and all components separate but equal, increase the cost plus chassis space to a degree where any advantages of the "balanced" mode are to high to make it a higher volume amp, and therefore the price ratio to product would be to high to consider. As far as being able to have adapters or exchange able sockets, it would affect cost an the design of the amp. I never liked look at an amp with empty sockets, all ways looked like something was missing. I know a lot of people dismiss ascetics as being unimportant but the manufacturer has to sell the product and most people would want something over sized and unattractive sitting out for others as well as oneself to look at. I fully believe in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) concept. More is not always better.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> DL:  I'm curious as to what advantage you think you would achieve from a balanced amp in a desktop setting. As far as I know, the only possible advantage to a balanced headphone amp is more power and less crosstalk. I've had no problem powering my headphone with the Elise and it's amazing imaging suggests to me that its crosstalk is very low. Am I missing something?
> 
> As @hypnos1 has pointed out, a true balanced amp can be quite an undertaking - meaning expensive. In addition, I would assume it would require twice the tubes as the current Elise (duplicate circuitry), and even now it is getting pretty difficult and expensive to find top performing tubes for our single ended Elise.
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting thoughts, the Elise seems to be one of the more/most flexible amps when it comes to rolling tubes from what I've seen/read but I think wanting something even more flexible is going off the deep end.  After listening to some of the great amps (Liquid Gold, Glass, EC Balancing Act, ZDS, MHA-100, and a few others) that my friend has I couldn't think of a reason to want anything more than the Liquid Glass even if its tube rolling is quite a bit limited compared to the Elise.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> My thoughts on the idea of an El3N based amp, would be that, for F-A it would be another product to sell and grow the company, to better sustain it with a wider variety of products.  It would be desirable to be under $1000 but not necessarily  a must have.  If they came up with an amp that took full advantage of the EL3N tube, in multiples, and sounded better than the Elise, not going to be easy,  I would defiantly be a purchaser. My thoughts would be under $1500 as I would think that with out the tube rolling ability it would be more for people that are satisfied to just experience the sound and get  wrapped up in the music experience.  I don't see it as competing with the Elise, more as an upgrade. I am quite happy with the sound of the Elise using various tubes, and I really have no favorite.  Have been using the Siemens C3G's and Gold Aero 5998A's for sometime now and am very satisfied with their execution of the music. With an amp designed around the superior qualities of the EL3N I would be satisfied to not tube roll. Since getting the Elise I have spent more on tubes than the cost of the amp, so pricing for a dedicated El3N amp, being higher for a niche product would be fine with me.As far as balanced, I see the advantages but if every component is not a separate channel from source through all equipment to headphone, and that means separate power supplies and all components separate but equal, increase the cost plus chassis space to a degree where any advantages of the "balanced" mode are to high to make it a higher volume amp, and therefore the price ratio to product would be to high to consider. As far as being able to have adapters or exchange able sockets, it would affect cost an the design of the amp. I never liked look at an amp with empty sockets, all ways looked like something was missing. I know a lot of people dismiss ascetics as being unimportant but the manufacturer has to sell the product and most people would want something over sized and unattractive sitting out for others as well as oneself to look at. I fully believe in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) concept. More is not always better.


 
 I guess it is possible that an Elise specifically configured electronically for the EL3N drivers would sound better than our current Elise does with EL3Ns. At this point I'm not sure anyone knows. As I have settled on EL3Ns for drivers, I might consider upgrading if it appears it really did have better SQ. But even if @richdytch becomes the leading world supplier of EL3N to 6SN7 adapters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the new Elise would not be configured properly for 6SN7 type tubes. And I agree that extra sockets (with the necessary additional circuitry) would not be a viable option for me, not to mention the additional expense that would be involved.
  
 Amen on KISS


----------



## hypnos1

Hey @connieflyer and @DavidA...the "not _too_ many frills" approach can indeed sound very attractive LOL!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## connieflyer

Agreed!


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> Interesting thoughts, the Elise seems to be one of the more/most flexible amps when it comes to rolling tubes from what I've seen/read but I think wanting something even more flexible is going off the deep end.  After listening to some of the great amps (Liquid Gold, Glass, EC Balancing Act, ZDS, MHA-100, and a few others) that my friend has I couldn't think of a reason to want anything more than the Liquid Glass even if its tube rolling is quite a bit limited compared to the Elise.


 
 Hi David))) I will probably never have the chance to hear a Liquid Glass, so I can continue to enjoy my Elise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Tube rolling has become pretty unimportant for me now that I have discovered the magic of my EL3N/GEC 6080WA tube combo.


----------



## richdytch

@UT - yup, praise indeed.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> Hi David))) I will probably never have the chance to hear a Liquid Glass, so I can continue to enjoy my Elise
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I went nuts buying tubes for my Lyr2 and BH Crack so in a way I'm like you but really haven't found a magic set, I just like to change the sound a little and have been rotating my tubes in the Lyr2, BH Crack and Ember about once a month.  
  
 I like variety in what I listen to, genre and sound signature, so I'll use quite a few of my headphones everyday, sometimes using more than 10 and also switching between amps to change things up


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> I went nuts buying tubes for my Lyr2 and BH Crack so in a way I'm like you but really haven't found a magic set, I just like to change the sound a little and have been rotating my tubes in the Lyr2, BH Crack and Ember about once a month.
> 
> I like variety in what I listen to, genre and sound signature, so I'll use quite a few of my headphones everyday, sometimes using more than 10 and also switching between amps to change things up


 
 I have enough trouble just deciding what to eat for breakfast. I do admire your flexibility


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> I've tried the 6x EL3N once again just recently only to confirm that for me; although it has an amazing soundstage and instrument separation, it seems too artificially euphonic (too much THD; total harmonic distortion) for my liking


 
 I'm just curious that you can hear THD from 6xEL3N and have not heard you mention that about your Christmas tree setup.
  
 I too dislike adapters, hence a dedicated amp for EL3N will appeal.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> My thoughts on the idea of an El3N based amp, would be that, for F-A it would be another product to sell and grow the company, to better sustain it with a wider variety of products.  It would be desirable to be under $1000 but not necessarily  a must have.  If they came up with an amp that took full advantage of the EL3N tube, in multiples, and sounded better than the Elise, not going to be easy,  I would defiantly be a purchaser. My thoughts would be under $1500 as I would think that with out the tube rolling ability it would be more for people that are satisfied to just experience the sound and get  wrapped up in the music experience.  I don't see it as competing with the Elise, more as an upgrade. I am quite happy with the sound of the Elise using various tubes, and I really have no favorite.  Have been using the Siemens C3G's and Gold Aero 5998A's for sometime now and am very satisfied with their execution of the music. With an amp designed around the superior qualities of the EL3N I would be satisfied to not tube roll. Since getting the Elise I have spent more on tubes than the cost of the amp, so pricing for a dedicated El3N amp, being higher for a niche product would be fine with me.As far as balanced, I see the advantages but if every component is not a separate channel from source through all equipment to headphone, and that means separate power supplies and all components separate but equal, increase the cost plus chassis space to a degree where any advantages of the "balanced" mode are to high to make it a higher volume amp, and therefore the price ratio to product would be to high to consider. As far as being able to have adapters or exchange able sockets, it would affect cost an the design of the amp. I never liked look at an amp with empty sockets, all ways looked like something was missing. I know a lot of people dismiss ascetics as being unimportant but the manufacturer has to sell the product and most people would want something over sized and unattractive sitting out for others as well as oneself to look at. I fully believe in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) concept. More is not always better.


 

 Well written CF. I like your thoughts process. 
  
 Elise has been designed around 6SN7 and 6AS7 tubes but yet a lot of owners are using tubes outside of this family of tubes. Ironic isn't it? It isn't that Elise doesn't sound good with 6SN7 and 6AS7 but a lot of us like the triode strapped pentodes C3g, EL3N.
  
 Elise has her place in the world of tube amps. Moderate low cost, great tube rolling flexibility and sounding good is a recipe for success. Going forward isn't going to be easy. It need not necessary be a tube amp to replace Elise but more of a different product.
  
 I don't need a tube amp with great tube rolling flexibility now. If it sounded good with a set of tubes, I'm happy to just settle down and listen to music.


----------



## connieflyer

I agree with this, tube rolling for me, was an end to find the best the amp could sound.  I am happy with the results but after chasing the latest and greatest tube combo's, I find the cost benefit ratio to be way out of kilter.  Had I the chance for an amp with the subtle looks and decent price range, I would have settled for it. I had looked at many amps prior to purchase.  Some kit form, most pre-built, and due to the circumstances of our life at the time, did not have the extra time involved to build or wait for long term delivery.  Looked at some more expensive than Elise,  but kept coming back to it from all the info available in forums.  Most of the amps that I considered,  where eight months to two years on waiting list, could not invest that much time, so ordered the Elise.  Has not been without problems, but worked through the minor things, and now have a very decent sounding unit. Now that I have more time, I may look to build my own amp, from some of the available schematics or may look to one of the other long time frame delivery amps. Not sure, and for me there is no rush.  I enjoy the gear that I have, so "upgrading" would be more of a"thing" to do than out of necessity.  I do really enjoy the EL3N tubes, so may look at the Glen amp offerings again.  Had looked at some of his creations in the past and enjoyed his vision.  But for now, just going to enjoy the music, which is all I was looking for to begin with.


----------



## louisxiawei

Gents, ta-da! She finally arrived. She was supposed to arrive yesterday, UPS driver got confused about my address and then re-schedule the delivery. 
  
But anyway, the first listening impression. 
  
*Setup:*
  
*Source: *PC -- Intona -- Jitterbug -- Uptone Regen (All supplied with Sbooster linear PSU, and connected with Curious cables)
*DAC:  *Arcam irDAC (first generation)
*Cable to Elise:* Merlin Tarantula MK6 Mains Cable
  
*The major difference*: When I put my T1 on, I  thought the left and right channels got plugged wrong at the beginning, because the vocal part is just so dead center located (Previously was a bit left-toward centre). Then I double check the cable, it is connected correctly. Guess I just need to get used to that sound. Or you guys think I did anything wrong causing this effect? Is the tube channel balance causing this vocal part shifting?  It's a feeling that the vocal was coming from left unit of headphone a bit more previously using my Lehmann linear, but now, it's so even distributed and just like right behind my eye.
  
*Burn-in questions*:
 Now I will burn the Elise for the required time, but any suggestion for tube amp burn-in? I used to burn my SS-AMP overnight without stop for around 200 hours, is it necessary to burn that long for a tube amp? I find the valve is really hot just after turning it on for only 5 minutes, doubt it will not be a good idea.
  
 Sorry for troubling you guys with those noob questions since I'm a newbie indeed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
*PS:*
 When I unpacked the Elise, there is a tiny little foam debris dropped into the Elise, will that be ok? I tried to get it out, but it is so tiny that I cannot find it anymore, hope it won't cause anything negative while she is running.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Gents, ta-da! She finally arrived. She was supposed to arrive yesterday, UPS driver got confused about my address and then re-schedule the delivery.
> 
> But anyway, the first listening impression.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sounds like Elise has the voice perfectly balanced.


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Gents, ta-da! She finally arrived. She was supposed to arrive yesterday, UPS driver got confused about my address and then re-schedule the delivery.
> 
> But anyway, the first listening impression.
> 
> ...


 
 Congratulations)))
  
 The heat should not be a problem at all. Most tube amps run hot. But I think I would not be comfortable running it for 200 hours straight. I have heard somewhere that it may be best to run it for no longer than 8 hours at a time and allow at least an hour between run times. Also, I think it is not wise to run any tube amp while unattended. It's not wise to turn it on and off frequently if you can avoid it because the most strain on tubes occurs during startup and shutdown, but I think the 8-hour limit is probably a good rule of thumb.
  
 I would recommend just listening to it in a normal way and the 200 hours will pass quickly.
  
 By the way, I have always left my solid state gear on 24/7. I first heard that recommendation back in the 70s from Steve McCormick who owned a company in Southern California named the ModSquad. My Bimby DAC is never off which I think Schiit particularly recommends to keep it in equilibrium. 
  
 I seriously doubt the debris is any problem. If it were me I'd totally forget that and just enjoy )))
  
 And I agree with @HOWIE13. Seems like it is balanced perfectly with the T1 but I guess you will know better as you try more recordings. Perhaps the best test is to listen to a mono recording.


----------



## 2359glenn

connieflyer said:


> I agree with this, tube rolling for me, was an end to find the best the amp could sound.  I am happy with the results but after chasing the latest and greatest tube combo's, I find the cost benefit ratio to be way out of kilter.  Had I the chance for an amp with the subtle looks and decent price range, I would have settled for it. I had looked at many amps prior to purchase.  Some kit form, most pre-built, and due to the circumstances of our life at the time, did not have the extra time involved to build or wait for long term delivery.  Looked at some more expensive than Elise,  but kept coming back to it from all the info available in forums.  Most of the amps that I considered,  where eight months to two years on waiting list, could not invest that much time, so ordered the Elise.  Has not been without problems, but worked through the minor things, and now have a very decent sounding unit. Now that I have more time, I may look to build my own amp, from some of the available schematics or may look to one of the other long time frame delivery amps. Not sure, and for me there is no rush.  I enjoy the gear that I have, so "upgrading" would be more of a"thing" to do than out of necessity.  I do really enjoy the EL3N tubes, so may look at the Glen amp offerings again.  Had looked at some of his creations in the past and enjoyed his vision.  But for now, just going to enjoy the music, which is all I was looking for to begin with.


 

 A all EL3N amp will need high quality output transformers and that will make it expensive. At least $1500.
 But the all EL3N amp with Lundahl output transformers I made sounds great as good as the 300B but at less then 1/2 the price.


----------



## pctazhp

2359glenn said:


> A all EL3N amp will need high quality output transformers and that will make it expensive. At least $1500.
> But the all EL3N amp with Lundahl output transformers I made sounds great as good as the 300B but at less then 1/2 the price.


 
 I need to immediately leave this thread and turn over control of all my money to my wife


----------



## richdytch

pctazhp said:


> But even if @richdytch
> becomes the leading world supplier of EL3N to 6SN7 adapters   the new Elise would not be configured properly for 6SN7 type tubes.




Mark my words, I'm gearing up for this


----------



## mordy

Hi *louisxiawei,*
  
*Welcome to Elise land! The amp will need at least 150 hours to burn in.*
  
*What is your serial number?*


----------



## louisxiawei

mordy said:


> Hi *louisxiawei,*
> 
> *Welcome to Elise land! The amp will need at least 150 hours to burn in.*
> 
> *What is your serial number?*


 
 Thanks. Where can I find my serial number? Can't find one on the amp.


----------



## mordy

There should be a card that came with the amp that has it written.


----------



## connieflyer

Just got my replacement dual el3n adapter, put the 6 pack back in and an immediate improvement in clarity and sound stage over the c3g and 5998a.  Been awhile since I heard this combo, and it re-affirms my opinion of these tubes.  The el3n's are my favorites now.  Thought they were, and in their absence  the others sounded great, but I have listened most of the morning, took a break for a doctor visit came home, adapter in the mail, shredded the packaging put 6 pack back in and experienced what I was missing.Love every thing about the EL3N, except the (#@$#@#!%^&&^%$#) stupid paddle foot connections.   May have to talk to Glen amps about how long it would take to make an el3n amp and to see the specs,pictures of it.  Getting old, don't want to finally receive it and then drop dead before I hear it, although with my luck that would be a likely scenario!


----------



## louisxiawei

mordy said:


> There should be a card that came with the amp that has it written.


 
 Hi, got it.
  
 Numer seryiny is : 0079 (guess it is serial number). Data wydania is: 8.09.2016. Indicating anything good or special?


----------



## 2359glenn

connieflyer said:


> Just got my replacement dual el3n adapter, put the 6 pack back in and an immediate improvement in clarity and sound stage over the c3g and 5998a.  Been awhile since I heard this combo, and it re-affirms my opinion of these tubes.  The el3n's are my favorites now.  Thought they were, and in their absence  the others sounded great, but I have listened most of the morning, took a break for a doctor visit came home, adapter in the mail, shredded the packaging put 6 pack back in and experienced what I was missing.Love every thing about the EL3N, except the (#@$#@#!%^&&^%$#) stupid paddle foot connections.   May have to talk to Glen amps about how long it would take to make an el3n amp and to see the specs,pictures of it.  Getting old, don't want to finally receive it and then drop dead before I hear it, although with my luck that would be a likely scenario!


 

 Could ship it on friday.
 But can't do anything about the connections on those tubes +1 AZ4 rectifier tube with the same connections.


----------



## Oskari

louisxiawei said:


> Data wydania is: 8.09.2016. Indicating anything good or special?




_Release date_ says google translate.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer

This, I think, is the Glenn amp in question:




2359glenn said:


>


----------



## louisxiawei

I can confirm that the sound just comes from the wrong channel, tested with other amplifier, iphone, ipod. The RCA cable connection is right, is it because I didn't follow the tube number fitting each according socket? Does put the wrong number tube to the socket causing any damage to the tube?
  
 Now all the tubes are unpacked and I cannot find their original number to match the socket. Is the black burn shade normal at the button of the tube after 2-hour usage?
  
 Need your guys' help.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Just got my replacement dual el3n adapter, put the 6 pack back in and an immediate improvement in clarity and sound stage over the c3g and 5998a.  Been awhile since I heard this combo, and it re-affirms my opinion of these tubes.  The el3n's are my favorites now.  Thought they were, and in their absence  the others sounded great, but I have listened most of the morning, took a break for a doctor visit came home, adapter in the mail, shredded the packaging put 6 pack back in and experienced what I was missing.Love every thing about the EL3N, except the (#@$#@#!%^&&^%$#) stupid paddle foot connections.   May have to talk to Glen amps about how long it would take to make an el3n amp and to see the specs,pictures of it.  Getting old, don't want to finally receive it and then drop dead before I hear it, although with my luck that would be a likely scenario!


 
 Found your old love did ya? 
  
 6xEL3N does sound very good on Elise. Now you have an even more attractive proposition from Glenn. His EL3N amp ready to shipped almost immediately. I might really have to come to Michigan to visit you. 
  
 I had some noise with no music playing when volume is at 3/4 at 3pm or more with 6xEL3N. This did not happen before. I swapped tubes to Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Tung Sol 7236 and the problem is still there. I thought my Elise is playing up. Last resort I disconnected the RCA preamp out cable from Elise to my Bose Companion 5 speakers. Immediately the noise went away and it's pitch black quietness again. Mind you, with the preamp out, it was quiet before. Could be the el cheapo RCA cable that I use. Will have to troubleshoot later.


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> I can confirm that the sound just comes from the wrong channel, tested with other amplifier, iphone, ipod. The RCA cable connection is right, is it because I didn't follow the tube number fitting each according socket? Does put the wrong number tube to the socket causing any damage to the tube?
> 
> Now all the tubes are unpacked and I cannot find their original number to match the socket. Is the black burn shade normal at the button of the tube after 2-hour usage?
> 
> Need your guys' help.


 
 That black shade is the mercury coating covering the bottom getters. It did not develop because you run the tubes for 2 hours. It's there right from the beginning. Mixing up the tubes won't have any undesirable effects.
  
 I don't know what your problem is with sound coming from the wrong channel but when I had Elise, I first power it on and have no sound on the left channel. Only to discover that my left RCA plug isn't fully pushed in on Elise back end. Did you have the RCA left and right connected properly?


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> That black shade is the mercury coating covering the bottom getters. It did not develop because you run the tubes for 2 hours. It's there right from the beginning. Mixing up the tubes won't have any undesirable effects.
> 
> I don't know what your problem is with sound coming from the wrong channel but when I had Elise, I first power it on and have no sound on the left channel. Only to discover that my left RCA plug isn't fully pushed in on Elise back end. Did you have the RCA left and right connected properly?


 
 RCA is double checked. All correct. All sockets are plugged tight. I did swap the 6AS7G tubes and the sound now coming from the right more (previously left more). Does it mean one of the tube isn't working properly?


----------



## louisxiawei

I think I will contact Lukasz tomorrow. Sound is not balanced at all from the channel, swapping 2 stock 6AS7G, making the sound from left to the right. 
  
 Bad luck maybe. Now I keep switching on and off quite frequently to troubleshoot the problem, but not solved yet.


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> I can confirm that the sound just comes from the wrong channel, tested with other amplifier, iphone, ipod. The RCA cable connection is right, is it because I didn't follow the tube number fitting each according socket? Does put the wrong number tube to the socket causing any damage to the tube?
> 
> Now all the tubes are unpacked and I cannot find their original number to match the socket. Is the black burn shade normal at the button of the tube after 2-hour usage?
> 
> Need your guys' help.


 
 I don't know why FA numbers the tubes but there is no possible way that mixing up tubes could cause the problem you describe. The amp has to be designed to take the signal from the left RCA input and pass it through the left circuit to the left connection on the headphone output. And the same with the right side. That is all hard-wired and can't be switched simply by reversing one power tube with the other or reversing the driver tubes. The only thing I can think of is FA may have made a mistaken switch of the wiring at the inputs or at the headphone jack. If that's the problem I would probably just attach your left input cable to the right RCA input and vice versa with the right input cable and let it go at that - although I do understand the desire to have everything perfect. Nonetheless, reversing the input cables should have no negative impact on the sound quality.
  
 Are you able to try the RCA preamp outputs to see if you have the same problem? If they miss-wired the connections to the headphone output, then it seems the RCA preamp outputs should not exhibit the problem you are experiencing with the headphone. However, if the mistake was made at the RCA inputs, then you should notice the same problem using the preamp RCA outputs.
  
 Please keep in mind I'm a lawyer - NOT an EE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Edit: I guess I should say that as I understand what you are describing is that the sound that you hear from the left side of your headphone is what you should be hearing on the right and vice versa. If that is not your problem then disregard all I just said. I realized that I don't totally understand what you mean when you say the sound isn't balanced. Sorry for all the corrections.


----------



## louisxiawei

pctazhp said:


> I don't know why FA numbers the tubes but there is no possible way that mixing up tubes could cause the problem you describe. The amp has to be designed to take the signal from the left RCA input and pass it through the left circuit to the left connection on the headphone output. And the same with the right side. That is all hard-wired and can't be switched simply by reversing one power tube with the other or reversing the driver tubes. The only thing I can think of is FA may have made a mistaken switch of the wiring at the inputs or at the headphone jack. If that's the problem I would probably just attach your left input cable to the right RCA input and vice versa with the right input cable and let it go at that - although I do understand the desire to have everything perfect. Nonetheless, reversing the input cables should have no negative impact on the sound quality.
> 
> Are you able to try the RCA preamp outputs to see if you have the same problem? If they miss-wired the connections to the headphone output, then it seems the RCA preamp outputs should not exhibit the problem you are experiencing with the headphone. However, if the mistake was made at the RCA inputs, then you should notice the same problem using the preamp RCA outputs.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks and sorry for being so confusing.
  
 I can confirm that one of the 6as7g tube got sparks when the Elise is switched on. If I put that tube having spark on the left side, sound comes from the right channel more, if I put that spark tube on the right side, sound comes from the right sound more.
  
 So the tube issue?


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Please keep in mind I'm a lawyer - NOT an EE


 
 Perhaps you're Judge Judy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@louisxiawei it sounds like a tube problem. Would be good if you have another pair of power tubes to test it. However take it up with Lukasz. They will sort out your problems.


----------



## pctazhp

Ah)))) Yes that does seem like a bad tube. Much easier problem to solve))) I'm sure FA will send you a replacement, or you can start you tube-rolling early


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Perhaps you're Judge Judy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Here come the judge!!! Here come the judge!!!


----------



## louisxiawei

pctazhp said:


> Ah)))) Yes that does seem like a bad tube. Much easier problem to solve))) I'm sure FA will send you a replacement, or you can start you tube-rolling early


 
 Thanks Judge.
  
 Guess I can't enjoy the Elise now. Don't have any spare tube. The bad tube makes lots of spark, pop sound in my headphone. Is it going to damage the headphone with these loud pop sound? Now I begin to worry.


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks Judge.
> 
> Guess I can't enjoy the Elise now. Don't have any spare tube. The bad tube makes lots of spark, pop sound in my headphone. Is it going to damage the headphone with these loud pop sound? Now I begin to worry.


 
 The Judge says: I would not under any circumstances continue to use the bad tube. You may be running the risk of destroying your amp, your headphones, your ears or all three. Sorry. The Judge sentences you to be patient!!!


----------



## louisxiawei

pctazhp said:


> The Judge says: I would not under any circumstances continue to use the bad tube. You may be running the risk of destroying your amp, your headphones, your ears or all three. Sorry. The Judge sentences you to be patient!!!


 
 Duly noted.
  
 So now my ears are fine, only risking my T1 and Elise amp just because of the bad stock tube. So bad luck


----------



## pctazhp

Wiring mistakes can occur. I think I told this story before, but I'm bored tonight so I'll tell it again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Decades ago I had on loan from Soundlab in Utah a 4 panel version of their A1/B1 electostatic speaker array. It was their absolute top of the line at the time. This is a recent version of the A1: http://www.stereophile.com/content/sound-lab-1-electrostatic-loudspeaker#RBvXSHGXvvv6kGfV.97
  
 The A1/B1 array consisted of one A1 panel per side and a companion B1 panel on each side. The A1 and B1 looked identical, but the B1 was an electrostatic subwoofer. The array was massive, and each of the 4 panels was powered by a dedicated Rowland 700 watt monoblock, preceded by a Soundlab-designed low level crossover for each side.
  
 I was never as impressed with the setup as I thought I should be. But many experienced audiophiles came to listen over the 6 months, and if any heard anything wrong they didn't mention it. Even Jeff Rowland was there and didn't catch that anything was amiss.
  
 When the array was finally returned to Soundlab, Roger West contacted me to let me know that one of the B1 panels had been wired out of phase before it left the factory. I sure would have loved to know what that array would have sounded like if the mistake had not been made.


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Duly noted.
> 
> So now my ears are fine, only risking my T1 and Elise amp just because of the bad stock tube. So bad luck


 
 I seriously doubt you did any harm to your T1 or Elise. We will all hope for the best )))


----------



## louisxiawei

pctazhp said:


> I seriously doubt you did any harm to your T1 or Elise. We will all hope for the best )))


 
 I run the Elise for constant 2 hours with that bad tube, and after that, observed the sparks in the tube, then the clipping, pop sound sending to my headphones and then leave that bad tube on the Elise for another half an hour until I got the judge's sentence, i immediately switched off the Elise.
  
 Cry me a river!


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> I run the Elise for constant 2 hours with that bad tube, and after that, observed the sparks in the tube, then the clipping, pop sound sending to my headphones and then leave that bad tube on the Elise for another half an hour until I got the judge's sentence, i immediately switched off the Elise.
> 
> *Cry me a river!*


 
 I'm doing the listening for you tonight:
  

  
 Sorry. I couldn't resist


----------



## UntilThen

@louisxiawei  if you live next door to me you can borrow any of my power tubes. I've just switch back to stock tubes and they sound very good. Why all this tube rolling. Might as well just buy another headphone or tube amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I also discovered that my amp produce some slight buzz at high volume without music when the back wires are touching. Just slight shifting the amp positioning gets rid of the noise completely.
 For those of you with this problem, try shifting your Elise. This amp is dead quiet now. I mean DEAD CALM without music.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> @louisxiawei  if you live next door to me you can borrow any of my power tubes. I've just switch back to stock tubes and they sound very good. *Why all this tube rolling.* Might as well just buy another headphone or tube amp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 ???????????????????
  
 If your plan is to slowly drive me to such a deranged state of mind I will leap to my death off the South Rim of the Grand Canyon so your brother can buy my Elise at my estate sale, YOU ARE SUCCEEDING


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp  strange I was just listening to Michael Buble yesterday and you post his video. 
  
 This song makes me wanna go home but I'm already home.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> ???????????????????
> 
> If your plan is to slowly drive me to such a deranged state of mind I will leap to my death off the South Rim of the Grand Canyon so your brother can buy my Elise at my estate sale, YOU ARE SUCCEEDING


 

 Ahhhhh.... from stock tubes I've gone back to 6xEL3N. *Now I know why I tube roll.* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	













 
  
 I feel like I'm Ben Hur about to win the chariots race.


----------



## pctazhp

Hopefully the Charlton Heston version 


untilthen said:


> Ahhhhh.... from stock tubes I've gone back to 6xEL3N. *Now I know why I tube roll.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hopefully the Charlton Heston version


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. Speaking of Ben Hur, did you know that the novel was written by Lew Wallace, who served as governor of the New Mexico Territory from 1878 to 1881: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Wallace
  
 Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben-Hur:_A_Tale_of_the_Christ
  
 I knew you were dying to know all this!!!


----------



## connieflyer

And if you would not have posted that information I would never have known that.  Thank you. Of course now something that may have been important in my mind had to be shifted out because at my age my brain is full up, sooo, input one bit of data, output one bit of data, I hope the one I lost was not where I put my car keys!


----------



## connieflyer

Listening to Danse Macabre in G Minor, Op. 40  with 6 pack outstanding.


----------



## UntilThen

You mean this? I have 6 pack also. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Is this one of the vinyl you send?


----------



## DecentLevi

pctazhp said:


> DL:  I'm curious as to what advantage you think you would achieve from a balanced amp in a desktop setting. As far as I know, the only possible advantage to a balanced headphone amp is more power and less crosstalk. I've had no problem powering my headphone with the Elise and it's amazing imaging suggests to me that its crosstalk is very low. Am I missing something?
> 
> As @hypnos1 has pointed out, a true balanced amp can be quite an undertaking - meaning expensive. In addition, I would assume it would require twice the tubes as the current Elise (duplicate circuitry), and even now it is getting pretty difficult and expensive to find top performing tubes for our single ended Elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 RE balanced topology - yes you certainly are missing something. More power and less crosstalk - that makes a world of difference. I may not be in tune to the technical processes, but from my experience, the same headphone can literally sound twice as good in balanced mode on the same amp as SE, as I've noticed with both my HP-100 and HD-650 which have detachable adapters to run in either mode; on the Liquid Carbon amp which which has both output modes, and of which multiple people have confirmed the astronomical improvement from the balanced output mode on that amp. Detail, layering, impact, etc. were improved at least two fold. But here's where it gets a little strange: Not all balanced amps inherently sound better than SE amps - and in some cases, SE amps can even sound better than balanced amps. As mentioned I'm no expert on the circuitry, but suffice it to say that A: it really depends on the internals of the amp as to which will perform better, be it in either SE or balanced. And B: The balanced topology will always result in some benefits such as cleaner, more impactful sound compared to the SE version of a similar design. IMO, both the Zana Deux and Liquid Tungsten sounded nearly as good as each other, the first being in SE and the 2nd being in balanced... but theoretically take one mono version of ZD for each channel and things may get a little amazing!
  
 Also I didn't mean to imply talking Glenn down to a steal-deal, just wondering how low he could reasonably go on the EL3N amp for some of you folks. @2359glenn must have something to add to balanced topic, and the custom amp


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> I'm just curious that you can hear THD from 6xEL3N and have not heard you mention that about your Christmas tree setup.
> 
> I too dislike adapters, hence a dedicated amp for EL3N will appeal.


 
 As we all know, the EL3N's are a highly colored tube. The changing of the sound that any tube does, is in fact called distortion. Harmonic distortion, which I consider more as saturation. With an all EL3N setup, I hear a substantial amount of artificial coloration / THD; which is a characteristic of either the tube or its' synergy with the Elise. I suppose however it is TBD whether or not this sonic flavor would change if implemented properly in a specialized amp.
  
 I'm not inferring that that the EL3N's coloration is a 'bad' thing however - it's more of a personal taste. And it's actually one of my top picks for drivers only. I'm also starting to see the word 'distortion' in a more positive light, as that's not such a nasty thing as the word implies.
  
 The sound I'm getting from my so-called 'Christmas tree' setup, IMO is puristic and expansive, with extremely low THD.


----------



## UntilThen

Maybe the Christmas tree setup should be Elise Mk2. It should sell by the bucket loads. Just make sure it's a balanced Christmas tree or it will topple over.


----------



## whirlwind

oskari said:


> @connieflyer
> 
> This, I think, is the Glenn amp in question:
> 
> ...


 
 Yep, this is Glenn's EL3N amp that he built....there is 1K worth of transformers on that chassis, so you can't build an amp like that for peanuts.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks and sorry for being so confusing.
> 
> I can confirm that one of the 6as7g tube got sparks when the Elise is switched on. If I put that tube having spark on the left side, sound comes from the right channel more, if I put that spark tube on the right side, sound comes from the right sound more.
> 
> So the tube issue?


 
  
 Sounds like tube is arcing. Don't use. FA will send you another tube-a real bummer-very sorry.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Listening to Danse Macabre in G Minor, Op. 40  with 6 pack outstanding.


 
  
  


connieflyer said:


> Listening to Danse Macabre in G Minor, Op. 40  with 6 pack outstanding.


 
 Get shivers down my spine when I hear that.


----------



## rudra

louisxiawei said:


> Guess I can't enjoy the Elise now. Don't have any spare tube. The bad tube makes lots of spark, pop sound in my headphone. Is it going to damage the headphone with these loud pop sound? Now I begin to worry.


 

 It is best to disconnect the HP when you switch on the amp and when you are about to switch the amp off especially in an OTL amp. This will protect your HP and your ear. Startup and shutdown is when the tube are prone to fail.


----------



## Spork67

rudra said:


> It is best to disconnect the HP when you switch on the amp and when you are about to switch the amp off especially in an OTL amp. This will protect your HP and your ear. Startup and shutdown is when the tube are prone to fail.


 
 I usually just make sure the volume is turned all the way down. Is this enough - or should I still be unplugging the HPs every time?
 My understanding (I may well be wrong) is that you should avoid un/plugging headphones (or speakers) while an amp is powered up.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> I usually just make sure the volume is turned all the way down. Is this enough - or should I still be unplugging the HPs every time?
> My understanding (I may well be wrong) is that you should avoid un/plugging headphones (or speakers) while an amp is powered up.


 
  
 I can only speak from personal experience here and I don't know about switching off, but I broke a headphone driver when the vol was way down on powering up because a tube arced with the headphone connected.
 I think most amps should have protection circuits to prevent this happening .
 I don't worry about connecting, disconnecting when power is on, as long as the music is not playing too loud for the headphone.
 What I don't do is power up with the headphone connected. Switching off I usually disconnect first. Can't think how that could damage the headphone.


----------



## Spork67

OK.
 Thanks @rudra & @HOWIE13
 I'll try to get into the habit of unplugging every night and plugging in after amp powered up.


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> You mean this? I have 6 pack also.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> RE balanced topology - yes you certainly are missing something. More power and less crosstalk - that makes a world of difference. I may not be in tune to the technical processes, but from my experience, the same headphone can literally sound twice as good in balanced mode on the same amp as SE, as I've noticed with both my HP-100 and HD-650 which have detachable adapters to run in either mode; on the Liquid Carbon amp which which has both output modes, and of which multiple people have confirmed the astronomical improvement from the balanced output mode on that amp. Detail, layering, impact, etc. were improved at least two fold. But here's where it gets a little strange: Not all balanced amps inherently sound better than SE amps - and in some cases, SE amps can even sound better than balanced amps. As mentioned I'm no expert on the circuitry, but suffice it to say that A: it really depends on the internals of the amp as to which will perform better, be it in either SE or balanced. And B: The balanced topology will always result in some benefits such as cleaner, more impactful sound compared to the SE version of a similar design. IMO, both the Zana Deux and Liquid Tungsten sounded nearly as good as each other, the first being in SE and the 2nd being in balanced... but theoretically take one mono version of ZD for each channel and things may get a little amazing!
> 
> Also I didn't mean to imply talking Glenn down to a steal-deal, just wondering how low he could reasonably go on the EL3N amp for some of you folks. @2359glenn must have something to add to balanced topic, and the custom amp


 
 DL:  My question to you was based on your stated desire to see a balanced version of the Elise. Do you have any idea of what the crosstalk is for the single-ended Elise? FA doesn't say, and I have never seen any report from someone who has measured it. In my experience, its imaging is stellar and I wonder how much lower you think the crosstalk has to be to make a "world of difference".
  
 From my understanding, more power is important only when an amp is clipping. I have never heard the Elise clip on the HD800S, T1 or HD598. How much more power does it need? Have you experienced clipping with your headphones?
  
 As for people reporting "astronomical improvement" in balanced mode, all I can say is expectation bias and herd mentality. I have read countless reports from people who have compared single-ended to balanced on a particular amp who found little if any difference.
  
 Let's assume that a balanced version of the Elise could be produced. I think it would cost at least $1,500 which I think is conservative. In addition, if it is truly balanced it will presumably require twice the number of tubes currently required for the Elise. In addition, for the system to be truly balanced it would require a balanced DAC. Personally, if I were looking for ways to spend money, I would rather keep my Bimby and Elise and buy a pair of Utopia headphones. I have little doubt that would have a much greater chance of producing a noticeable increase in sound quality (or at least a different sound).


----------



## frederick-rea

That's for this reason that when powering up an audio chain some power regenerators/filters have sequential power switch on/off. Headphone, as speakers must be the last one when switching on and the first one when switching off. Spikes could reach headphone even with sound level null


----------



## rudra

spork67 said:


> OK.
> Thanks @rudra
> & @HOWIE13
> 
> I'll try to get into the habit of unplugging every night and plugging in after amp powered up.




lowering the volume does not protect the headphone in an OTL since the HP is directly connected to the power tube. if you are rolling tube make sure that the tubes cool down before swapping out. not a good idea to roll cold tubes with warm tubes. apologies if you already knew about it


----------



## connieflyer

DL perhaps instead of looking for a balanced set-up, the problem may be the tubes you are using.  You may want to consider these for your "xmas tree" set-up.  Much more power and would look extra cool at the next trade show.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klystron.  
 Used magnetrons in the radar systems I worked on, great tubes, a little heavy, but you would need a little bracking


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> *As we all know, the EL3N's are a highly colored tube*. The changing of the sound that any tube does, is in fact called distortion. Harmonic distortion, which I consider more as saturation. With an all EL3N setup, I hear a substantial amount of artificial coloration / THD; which is a characteristic of either the tube or its' synergy with the Elise. I suppose however it is TBD whether or not this sonic flavor would change if implemented properly in a specialized amp.
> 
> I'm not inferring that that the EL3N's coloration is a 'bad' thing however - it's more of a personal taste. And it's actually one of my top picks for drivers only. I'm also starting to see the word 'distortion' in a more positive light, as that's not such a nasty thing as the word implies.
> 
> The sound I'm getting from my so-called 'Christmas tree' setup, IMO is puristic and expansive, with extremely low THD.


 
 Maybe you can speak for everyone else on this thread, but not for me. I do not experience the EL3N as more colored than many of the other popular Elise tubes.
  
 All tubes produce a certain level of even-order harmonic distortion. That does produce some coloration in general comparison to a solid state amp, and is probably the main factor that draws us to tube amps (plus the ability to vary that coloration through tube rolling). In my opinion, a well designed tube amp like the Elise accommodates tubes that provide a pleasing level of coloration without masking detail. For me, the coloration that is added by many tubes that work well in the Elise (especially the EL3N as drivers) actually results in an experience that seems more "realistic" than I typically have experienced from solid state amps.


----------



## rudra

pctazhp FWIW and YMMV balanced output(both from my SS & Tube amp) sounds better subjectively to me than SE output. not trying to convince you that balanced is better. just stating my opinion. On the other hand SE output from the balanced amps was ok.


----------



## pctazhp

rudra said:


> @pctazhp FWIW and YMMV balanced output(both from my SS & Tube amp) sounds better subjectively to me than SE output. not trying to convince you that balanced is better. just stating my opinion. On the other hand SE output from the balanced amps was ok.


 
 Actually, I'm not as invested in this argument as it may seem. I just am personally not interested in seeing a balanced version of the Elise. I don't think the extra cost would be worth it. even though I already have an extra XLR cable that came with my HD800S, which I have never used.
  
 Also, while I enjoy reading people's  subjective experiences, I try to understand the technical reasons that might be producing those experiences. In the case of single ended vs balanced I just don't see why it should usually make a difference in the desktop environment (short runs).
  
 Having said all that, I have reported many times in the past that in my audiophile days I owned many high-end expensive amps (tube and ss). Of all of them, my favorite (and one of the least expensive amps I owned) was the John Curl designed Parasound Halo monoblocks. They were solid state and balanced.


----------



## hypnos1

rudra said:


> @pctazhp FWIW and YMMV balanced output(both from my SS & Tube amp) sounds better subjectively to me than SE output. not trying to convince you that balanced is better. just stating my opinion. On the other hand SE output from the balanced amps was ok.


 
  
 Hi rudra.
  
 This is indeed a "grey" area - like so many in our hobby, and as with these others there appear to be a good many variables that will affect the final outcome...and so guaranteed to create different results, not to mention controversy! I personally think the deciding factor is - as already mentioned - the questionable cost/benefit ratio, taking into account the other further expenditure required to go _fully_ balanced, and not just with the amp itself...@pctazhp makes a good point as to where better cost/benefit may lie...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 But as usual..._*horses for courses, lol!!...*_





...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (not to mention wallets!!).
  
  
 And so sorry to hear your news re. a bad tube @louisxiawei...such an unfortunate - and very disappointing start for you (and US!). An example of the less attractive side of tubes - OK one minute (as tested by Feliks-Audio), the next...BANG! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...This is something all tube amp owners have to be prepared for of course, but naturally, it hurts FAR more after the sort of anticipation we build in expectation of something magical. We all share your pain!
  
 But be assured, this disappointment will fade very quickly once you get your amp running 100%...which I sincerely hope won't be too far off. Best wishes, CJ


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> As we all know, the EL3N's are a highly colored tube. The changing of the sound that any tube does, is in fact called distortion. Harmonic distortion, which I consider more as saturation. With an all EL3N setup, I hear a substantial amount of artificial coloration / THD; which is a characteristic of either the tube or its' synergy with the Elise. I suppose however it is TBD whether or not this sonic flavor would change if implemented properly in a specialized amp.
> 
> I'm not inferring that that the EL3N's coloration is a 'bad' thing however - it's more of a personal taste. And it's actually one of my top picks for drivers only. I'm also starting to see the word 'distortion' in a more positive light, as that's not such a nasty thing as the word implies.
> 
> The sound I'm getting from my so-called 'Christmas tree' setup, IMO is puristic and expansive, with extremely low THD.


 

 DL, you have a one track mind. Calling the EL3N setup as highly colored while your Christmas tree frankenstein setup as pure and expansive with extremely low THD... you must be bonkers.


----------



## 2359glenn

decentlevi said:


> pctazhp said:
> 
> 
> > DL:  I'm curious as to what advantage you think you would achieve from a balanced amp in a desktop setting. As far as I know, the only possible advantage to a balanced headphone amp is more power and less crosstalk. I've had no problem powering my headphone with the Elise and it's amazing imaging suggests to me that its crosstalk is very low. Am I missing something?
> ...


 

 I think you have been listening to the marketing hype put on by company's selling balanced gear. Cross talk what cross talk in the ground?  I don't think you can even measure it
 no less here it. In my EL3N amp I could have had a balanced output by grounding the center of the output transformer instead of one end. and it would have sounded exactly the same
 except I wouldn't have been able to have a 1/4" TRS headphone jack what would the purpose of doing this be.
 Balanced SS amps are louder because each side is 2 amps 180deg out of phase that gives twice the voltage out. But also twice the parts that never sounds better LESS IS MORE.
  
 The price of a tube amp not a OTL is mostly the quality of the output transformers.  Can be made low cost But I prefer to use the best transformers and get the best sound possible.
 If your going to spend over $1K on phones why skimp on the transformers in the amp.


----------



## louisxiawei

hypnos1 said:


> And so sorry to hear your news re. a bad tube @louisxiawei...such an unfortunate - and very disappointing start for you (and US!). An example of the less attractive side of tubes - OK one minute (as tested by Feliks-Audio), the next...BANG!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks hypnos1, I guess the bad tube starts my tube-rolling journey a bit early. Ordered a matched pair of Mullard 6080WA from valvetubes.com, arrived in 2 days. Lukasz will also send me the power tube replacement.
  
 Patience is good virtue.


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks hypnos1, I guess the bad tube starts my tube-rolling journey a bit early. Ordered a matched pair of Mullard 6080WA from valvetubes.com, arrived in 2 days. Lukasz will also send me the power tube replacement.
> 
> Patience is good virtue.


 
  
 Glad to see you're being philosophical about it, lwei...will stand you in very good stead for your future journey in tube amp land - the pluses far outweigh any negatives LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...
  
 ps. The Mullards should be a good *start* for you!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## AltCtrl

My Elise was just shipped so excited! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quick newbie question, do you guys keep the Elise on at all times or are you supposed to turn it off when not in use? And does it matter if the HP's are in while turning it on/off?


----------



## Riverstalker

Lukasz said no prob for some hours a day but he also told me not to go 24/7. Just take a little care of her then you should be good.


----------



## HOWIE13

Going to be a bit boring and not enter into any argument about balanced/unbalanced as I don't really have any experience. My friend swaps between the two with his custom made French tube amp and other than balanced was a bit louder, when I increased the volume of the unbalanced set-up I couldn't detect any discernable difference. That's not really a good experiment though, just a one off.
  
 Anyway, I better record where I am so far in case my memory fails me at some point in the future and I need to look back to what I have decided.
  
 So, just talking Classical: for piano and vocals it's the 6 pack, no doubts at all. Enriching, engrossing, embracing, visceral, etc, etc
  
 For instrumental, large and small, 6 pack for colder, drier recordings and older recordings, badly re-mastered.
 Otherwise generally, either 5998 or Christmas tree powers, with various drivers depending on the headphones, recordings, and my mood eg, 6SN7, 6F8G, 6DJ8, C3g, 6N7, 6A6, EL3N.
 For warmer, more opaque, resonant recordings I would probably use a 6080 or 7236 power, again with drivers as above.
 For large scale orchestral it's 6 pack.
  
 I just can't get enough of Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

altctrl said:


> My Elise was just shipped so excited!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Excited for you too, AC...as for everyone who gets this happy news, lol!
  
 A general rule of thumb is about 8hrs max per session, but is not set in stone! However, as heat is the enemy of electronic components, this has got to be a _*sensible*_ course of action....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...And please do *NOT* ever leave your amp on unattended - although not_ likely, _there is always the _slight_ possibility of something failing drastically inside, which _can_ lead to smoke!...but fear not, this is a VERY rare occurrence, especially as Elise does have a good degree of protection circuitry built-in...
  
 And again, generally the advice is for HPs to be LAST in, FIRST out - with volume at zero...
  
 All the best for a safe and speedy delivery of your own "bringer of joy"...


----------



## hypnos1

Hey @2359glenn...nice looking EL3N-based amp you built for yourself, and glad your faith in this tube we stumbled upon a good while ago now was not misplaced LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 I - and a good many others here - still can't believe its level of performance...even in a 6SN7 circuit! And although not precisely configured for it, our Elises have shown wonderful flexibility in being able to shine with this tube to a degree that often exceeds some top-tier 6SN7s; C3gs; an extremely good 12V FDD20, and above all the Mullard ECC31 - which as you know, is basically the same stable as the mighty ECC32/CV181.
  
 This tube has now become the favourite of the majority of those who have tried it...an amazing 'sleeping' tube that has one wondering just what else is out there 'sleeping', yet to be re-discovered...but my own experimentation is now at an end...(have  lost count of the number of times I've said that, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







). I am just glad that this EL3N was sitting out there tempting @UntilThen with her red skirt!!...(shame about her _*feet*_ though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> Hey @2359glenn...nice looking EL3N-based amp you built for yourself, and glad your faith in this tube we stumbled upon a good while ago now was not misplaced LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes those tubes have a crazy bottom but there SQ makes up for it.
 When run as a triode in a output stage they sound as good as a PX4 or US #45 with the lowest distortion of any tube.
 Thank you guys for finding this gem of a tube.
 Glenn


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Yes those tubes have a crazy bottom but there SQ makes up for it.
> When run as a triode in a output stage they sound as good as a PX4 or US #45 with the lowest distortion of any tube.
> Thank you guys for finding this gem of a tube.
> Glenn


 
  
 Our pleasure Glenn.
  
 And yes, we have to forgive them that crazy base...after all, sound _*is*_ paramount at the end of the day!...(there is of course the octal-based version EL11, but hardly any about at a reasonable price alas...and I think I read somewhere once that it didn't appear _quite_ as good as the EL3N, for some reason...). CHEERS!...CJ
  
 Edit...as Oskari has pointed out, the E11 is an 8-pin German steel base, NOT standard _octal_...my bad...


----------



## UntilThen

2359glenn said:


> Yes those tubes have a crazy bottom but there SQ makes up for it.
> When run as a triode in a output stage they sound as good as a PX4 or US #45 with the lowest distortion of any tube.
> Thank you guys for finding this gem of a tube.
> Glenn


 

 EL3N has been in DIY forum for a while but I'm glad @hypnos1  took up my off the cuff suggestion to try it in Elise. No doubt aided by your help with the C3G pin connections.
  
 It's our pleasure indeed, Glenn. For you to make those statements is a really good endorsement of EL3N. We have quite a lot here who loves the sound of it.


----------



## UntilThen

altctrl said:


> My Elise was just shipped so excited!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Congrats   As advised by others, don't leave it on at all times. I don't even think you should go 8 hours a day right from the start although I can imagine one would want to listen all through the night. Just let it burn in gradually as you listen to music. I was cautious initially so I would power on Elise first before plugging in my headphone but now it didn't matter anymore. The headphone jack is in there all the time except when I switch headphones. However there's an off chance that a tube could go bad and damage your headphone.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> (there is of course the octal-based version EL11, but hardly any about at a reasonable price alas...and I think I read somewhere once that it didn't appear _quite_ as good as the EL3N, for some reason...)




EL11 _8-pin German Steel_
EL33 _Octal_

:rolleyes: Doesn't matter much unless you have them.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> EL11 _8-pin German Steel_
> EL33 _Octal_
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Do both those tube types slot straight into a 6SN7 socket or do they require an adapter? Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> EL11 _8-pin German Steel_
> EL33 _Octal_
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah yes, O...different 8-pin base...silly me - thanks!


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Do both those tube types slot straight into a 6SN7 socket or do they require an adapter? Thanks for clarifying.




Both would need an adapter.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Both would need an adapter.


 
 Thanks for confirming that.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Do both those tube types slot straight into a 6SN7 socket or do they require an adapter? Thanks for clarifying.


 

 Those tubes are still pentodes so you can't just slot it into Elise 6SN7 sockets.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Those tubes are still pentodes so you can't just slot it into Elise 6SN7 sockets.


 
  Got it. Cheers UT.


----------



## mordy

*I personally think that the EL3N tubes are very colored. I especially like the red and gray colors.*


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> *I personally think that the EL3N tubes are very colored. I especially like the red and gray colors.*


 

 Haha good point.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys, 

Long time, hope all old and new members are happy with their Elise  Very busy time in the middle east, I'm back. Without any DAC lol I need something new, what do you think I should get in 1k range? 

Best Regards
LR


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Long time, hope all old and new members are happy with their Elise
> 
> ...


 

 Find a used NAD M51. They come up at AUD$900 here in the classified occasionally but you have got to be fast. They go faster than hot cakes.
  
 Then bring it to my place for an audition.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> Find a used NAD M51. They come up at AUD$900 here in the classified occasionally but you have got to be fast. They go faster than hot cakes.
> 
> Then bring it to my place for an audition.




You got it, boss  I saw one for 975 USD on audio circles, but the guy to pictures of it in his lawn, next to the pool, I was like, who keeps his DAC next to a pool?


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> You got it, boss
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's for photoshoot you know.


----------



## UntilThen

@AltCtrl I'm going to answer your question here...
  
 Re:- Where to find :-
  
 C3G and 5998
 EL3N and 7236
  
 C3G - see if @audio123  still has any Valvo C3G  <----  Oh wait I think I got the name wrong. What's he call again???
 5998 - see @connieflyer who is selling off his nearly new pair.
 EL3N - email http://www.acoustic-dimension.com that you want to buy a pair of Philips EL3N. They will reply and send you an invoice to pay via Paypal.
 7236 - if you cannot find a pair on eBay, then check out this place where I got my mint condition Cetron 7236. They are a bit pricier but it's so new you can see your face in it. https://tubeworldexpress.com/search?q=7236
  
 ps... don't forget you need these adapters:-
  
 For EL3N
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
  
  
 For C3G
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-C3G-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-or-Woo-WA5-/201487044932?hash=item2ee9905144:g:JTMAAOSwZ1lWc-Dd
  
 Hang on a sec, there are C3G on eBay:-
 In singles but you can mix and match brand. Telefunken and Siemens you get the best of both worlds 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/C3g-C-3-g-TELEFUNKEN-GERMAN-NEW-TUBE-NOS-TESTED-/142101422906?hash=item2115e7a33a:gmMAAOSwxg5XxHen
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/C3g-C-3-g-SIEMENS-GERMAN-NEW-TUBE-NOS-NIB-TESTED-/142076527335?hash=item21146bc2e7:g:CxkAAOSwnQhXpLJX
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/C3g-SIEMENS-NOS-Tube-Valvula-Rohre-Valvola-Lampe-TSF-Valve-/401183755854?hash=item5d686a4e4e:g:WsYAAOSwDuJWv5UX


----------



## AltCtrl

untilthen said:


> @AltCtrl I'm going to answer your question here...
> 
> Re:- Where to find :-
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!! I'll start off buying the EL3N and 7236.


----------



## UntilThen

altctrl said:


> Thanks!! I'll start off buying the EL3N and 7236.


 

 Good choice. You'll love it with HD650.
  
 Try it first. It may be all you need.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> EL3N has been in DIY forum for a while but I'm glad @hypnos1  took up my off the cuff suggestion to try it in Elise. No doubt aided by your help with the C3G pin connections.
> 
> It's our pleasure indeed, Glenn. For you to make those statements is a really good endorsement of EL3N. We have quite a lot here who loves the sound of it.


 
  
 Those EL3N's are indeed a treasure uncovered.
  
 In some respects with the K-R drivers in the picture, Espressivo almost rivals Elise. Mind you, a strong pair of those drivers could cost almost as much as the amp!


----------



## pctazhp

2359glenn said:


> *Yes those tubes have a crazy bottom but there SQ makes up for it.*
> When run as a triode in a output stage they sound as good as a PX4 or US #45 with the lowest distortion of any tube.
> Thank you guys for finding this gem of a tube.
> Glenn


 
  
 Glenn:  I am so glad to see someone with your experience comment on the EL3N base. I am a fan of the tube, but seating them in the socket for the first time with each new tube certainly is an interesting experience )))
  
 Thanks for your contributions here. I think you clarified a misunderstanding I may have had regarding balanced amp design. I have been saying that a balanced Elise would require twice the tubes. But from what I understand from you, duplicate circuitry is only required for balanced in solid state amps, but not necessarily in a tube amp.
  
 That's a minor point, and I understand you don't see a particular advantage in balanced design, but at least you clarified this for me. ))))


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13  the EL3Ns goes in as power tubes on Expressivo? That's progress indeed.  I've one of those blue adapter that the Ken Rad uses. It's for me to use a 6SN7 in my Aune T1.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @HOWIE13  the EL3Ns goes in as power tubes on Expressivo? That's progress indeed.  I've one of those blue adapter that the Ken Rad uses. It's for me to use a 6SN7 in my Aune T1.


 
 Indeed they do sound good as powers in Espressivo - so do C3g's, and both synergise very well with 6SN7's as drivers.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  I prefer both these powers to the usual 6N6P's
  
 I like those blue adapters-I think they were sent to me by mistake for the gold ones, but they are kind of cute, I think.


----------



## 2359glenn

pctazhp said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > *Yes those tubes have a crazy bottom but there SQ makes up for it.*
> ...


 

 The base on these tubes are a pain in the butt. I had one rip off it's base when trying to remove it from the socket.
 So now I pry with a screw driver to help get them out of the socket.
 These tubes are worth every bit of the hassle with the base Sound is among the best. And easy to build with to get sound this good you have to use a PX4 or 45.
 And these tubes are direct heated and require a DC power supply for the heater or hum. The EL3N can run on AC with no hum this makes the amp easy to build
 and smaller. No heat sinks on the back for the voltage regulators.
 The sound of these tubes are the best and has enough gain when run in pentode to make a amp with no drivers. Just the output tubes hooked to the source through
 the volume control.
 I built my amp to run ether way and I prefer triode mode even though it has a extra EL3N as driver.
  
 A balanced tube amp can have a balanced input transformer to change balanced to single ended. Then amplified to a output transformer that changes it back to balanced.
 These have to be high quality transformers to get the best sound.


----------



## UntilThen

2359glenn said:


> The sound of these tubes are the best and has enough gain when run in pentode to make a amp with no drivers. Just the output tubes hooked to the source through
> the volume control.
> I built my amp to run ether way and I prefer triode mode even though it has a extra EL3N as driver.


 
 Glenn do you think this will drive a low efficiency planar magnetic such as LCD2.2 or Ether C well? I wonder if you had a chance to try such headphones with your EL3N amp.
  
 6xEL3N in Elise certainly drives my HE-560 alright. Well... very well... better than I expected.


----------



## mordy

Hi 2359glenn,
  
 Is your EL3n amplifier strictly for headphones, or can it be used as a pre-amp?


----------



## pctazhp

2359glenn said:


> The base on these tubes are a pain in the butt. I had one rip off it's base when trying to remove it from the socket.
> So now I pry with a screw driver to help get them out of the socket.
> These tubes are worth every bit of the hassle with the base Sound is among the best. And easy to build with to get sound this good you have to use a PX4 or 45.
> And these tubes are direct heated and require a DC power supply for the heater or hum. The EL3N can run on AC with no hum this makes the amp easy to build
> ...


 
 Got it. Thanks. Seems like an unnecessary step and I assume explains why you didn't design your EL3N amp as balanced.


----------



## UntilThen

I can't believe how good these tubes sound in Elise even though it's not designed for it. With burn in after several hundred hours, I detect a more controlled, defined sound. The tone loses some warm and lushness and becomes more neutral while bass tightens up and has a nice impact. It's a pleasing sound to the ears. Non fatiguing while presenting the details with clarity. 
  
 Yup non fatiguing... makes you just listen to music for hours without tiring or getting a ear blast. One other thing. These tubes don't generate much heat. With 6 of them in Elise, it's as cool as cucumber.


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> Glenn do you think this will drive a low efficiency planar magnetic such as LCD2.2 or Ether C well? I wonder if you had a chance to try such headphones with your EL3N amp.
> 
> 6xEL3N in Elise certainly drives my HE-560 alright. Well... very well... better than I expected.


 
  
 UT
  
 This post may provide the answer you are looking for
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio/14130#post_12855368
  
_Different then the OTL as it is a amp with output transformers and it can drive low impedance phones._
_I think it sounds as good as the 300B just less power. Uses the same Lundahl transformers and high quality parts._


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I can't believe how good these tubes sound in Elise even though it's not designed for it. With burn in after several hour hours, I detect a more controlled, defined sound. The tone loses some warm and lushness and becomes more neutral while bass tightens up and has a nice impact. It's a pleasing sound to the ears. Non fatiguing while presenting the details with clarity.
> 
> Yup non fatiguing... makes you just listen to music for hours without tiring or getting a ear blast. One other thing. These tubes don't generate much heat. With 6 of them in Elise, it's as *cool as cucumber.*


 
 According to Wikipedia: "There are three main varieties of cucumber: slicing, pickling, and burpless. Within these varieties, several different cultivars have emerged." Does the variety or cultivar affect sound quality?
  
 Edit: Actually, disregard this post. I just got a couple of cucumbers out of the refrigerator and realized they add "color".


----------



## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> UT
> 
> This post may provide the answer you are looking for
> 
> ...


 

 Dang, that's sounding more appealing by the minute. I might have to jump ship soon, like Captain Jack Sparrow.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Dang, that's sounding more appealing by the minute. I might have to jump ship soon, like Captain Jack Sparrow.


 
 Do you still have my shipping address for when you place the order???


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> According to Wikipedia: "There are three main varieties of cucumber: slicing, pickling, and burpless. Within these varieties, several different cultivars have emerged." Does the variety or cultivar affect sound quality?


 

 Well if you feel cool, music is more pleasing to the ears. If you're sweating under 40 degrees C in a hot dry sauna, music is the last thing on your mind. You're dying for ice cubes.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Do you still have my shipping address for when you place the order???


 

 Everything comes downunder eventually. It's the law of gravity. So the address is Sydney, Australia.


----------



## connieflyer

I have to stop reading this thread, it is getting out of hand, need more time, money , space and way to hook everything up so I don't have to move, just use a remote, sit back and enjoy the music, almost there now, but hearing about Glenn's amp, getting that upgrade itis feeling again. Lord, give me strengh!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## oshipao

untilthen said:


> Everything comes downunder eventually. It's the law of gravity. So the address is Sydney, Australia.


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


>


 

 Stop smiling Oshipao and tell me more about your experiences with Elise and your head-fi gear. We want to hear from the man with the Thorens and Benz Micro.


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> Dang, that's sounding more appealing by the minute. I might have to jump ship soon, like Captain Jack Sparrow.


 
  
 I think Glenn's EL3N amp will complement the Elise well just as it will complement my Glenn's OTL Darna well. And if you do want to own a Glenn EL3N amp, you should act soon as the queue is quite long...


----------



## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> I think Glenn's EL3N amp will complement the Elise well just as it will complement my Glenn's OTL Darna well. And if you do want to own a Glenn EL3N amp, you should act soon as the queue is quite long...


 

 Why don't you get it first and tell me how it sounds. Man, you have the Darna and soon the EL3N amp. Btw Glenn should give it a nice name. Such heavy investments that will move the ASX. You must have oil wells like @Lord Raven.
  
 Meanwhile I have these six EL3Ns in Elise and it's sounding so good... unbelievable. Incredible.


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> Why don't you get it first and tell me how it sounds. Man, you have the Darna and soon the EL3N amp. Btw Glenn should give it a nice name. Such heavy investments that will move the ASX. You must have oil wells like @Lord Raven.
> 
> Meanwhile I have these six EL3Ns in Elise and it's sounding so good... unbelievable. Incredible.


 
  
 I have been thinking of doing that UT but I decided to 'upgrade' my DAC so I just spent some dough for a Level 3 Holo Spring DAC. I need to recover first... (I mean my wallet.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 BTW, AFAIK Glenn doesn't give his amps names - the owners do.


----------



## UntilThen

@Oskari  these Cetron 7236 have these numbers. Can you decipher what they mean? 
  
 131A
  
 72241  8340
  
 On the website, they say it's 1983 tubes. I'm quite surprised that Cetron is still making these tubes in 1983 which is only 33 years ago.


----------



## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> I have been thinking of doing that UT but I decided to 'upgrade' my DAC so I just spent some dough for a Level 3 Holo Spring DAC. I need to recover first... (I mean my wallet.)


 
 This is the first time I've heard of Holo Spring DAC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 However a quick search shows quite a special product. I mean it looks beautiful. This looks like BMW designers work on it.
  


 ..and what they say about it.
  
"The Spring Dac is his newest product and is the first DAC in history to be capable of DSD native on an R2R dac! This spring is capable of DSD512 and actually running on his bespoke discrete ladder dac! this is not your run of the mill dac here, it’s full of unique and well thought out designs and implementations."
  
  
 Are you watching @Lord Raven ? This might be what you need.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> *Everything comes downunder eventually.* It's the law of gravity. So the address is Sydney, Australia.


 
  
 Ah, UT...so too it would appear the EL3N - which brings me to a question... Are you guys downunder actually any good at building tubes, lol?! - if not, you and I might just have a falling out!!... viz. have just snapped up two very nice looking Philips (Australia) EL3N*G*s, for about $15 or so each. And you guys decided upon a much friendlier octal base - a la EL33 - and _gold_ paint instead of red...could this possibly mean the "Gold Standard"? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Gonna be real interesting to see how they stand up against the wonderfully 'colourful' Austrians from Peter at acoustic-dimension...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...could also just tempt me to build my own dualling setup - complete with pure silver and single-crystal copper wires, of course LOL! (I quite like the idea of red and gold companions...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...) :
  

  

  
 Do I have your undivided attention yet, mon ami?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Ah, UT...so too it would appear the EL3N - which brings me to a question... Are you guys downunder actually any good at building tubes, lol?! - if not, you and I might just have a falling out!!... viz. have just snapped up two very nice looking Philips (Australia) EL3N*G*s, for about $15 or so each. And you guys decided upon a much friendlier octal base - a la EL33 - and _gold_ paint instead of red...could this possibly mean the "Gold Standard"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ok if that works, you have to make me those adapters or we'll get xulingmrs on it again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You didn't buy all the EL3NG I hope.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Ok if that works, you have to make me those adapters or we'll get xulingmrs on it again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can't promise on the adapters, alas (nor would MRS X, no doubt!!)...besides, it looks like I might well have snaffled the last two for a good while yet - they obviously appear to be VERY thin on the ground...more's the pity...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but perhaps there's a cave-full - or mine-full - of them somewhere in the outback LOL?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...CHEERS!


----------



## 2359glenn

mordy said:


> Hi 2359glenn,
> 
> Is your EL3n amplifier strictly for headphones, or can it be used as a pre-amp?


 

 Just a headphone amp.  But I can put preamp outputs if somebody wanted them.
 The EL3N driver has plenty of output to drive a preamp output.
  
  
 The EL3N with output transformer can easily drive low efficiency planar magnetic such as LCD2.2 or Ether C


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1 I think you should try the EL11 and EL33 instead. These are gorgeous looking tubes and gorgeous brands available on eBay.
  
 $119

  
 $149


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1 I think you should try the EL11 and EL33 instead. These are gorgeous looking tubes and gorgeous brands available on eBay.
> 
> $119
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not at those prices I'm afraid, UT!...


----------



## richdytch

lord raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Long time, hope all old and new members are happy with their Elise  Very busy time in the middle east, I'm back. Without any DAC lol I need something new, what do you think I should get in 1k range?
> 
> ...




Hi LR, good to see you back.


----------



## hypnos1

hypnos1 said:


> Not at those prices I'm afraid, UT!...


 
  
 Haha, UT...just had a good laugh - some ebayer in New Zealand is trying to ask *$100* for *1* EL3N...???!!!


----------



## hypnos1

Welcome back @Lord Raven...but what happened to your Geek Pulse?...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

There a lot of EL11 on eBay. You need to do some pioneering work again.


----------



## Vigrith

untilthen said:


> This is the first time I've heard of Holo Spring DAC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 A local store that deals in niche/high end speaker oriented equipment that I went to to audition some Pathos amps actually had one of those Holo Spring DACs for demo (kind of as a test to see if they should import more of their products), whilst I didn't get to listen to it at the time as I was in a bit of a hurry I can confirm it is GORGEOUS in person. It's the most beautiful DAC I've seen, granted I may be biased as I'm a fan of minimalistic/elegant designs.


----------



## UntilThen

2359glenn said:


> The EL3N with output transformer can easily drive low efficiency planar magnetic such as LCD2.2 or Ether C


 
 Beautiful just beautiful. Planar magnetic headphone owners should check this out.


----------



## 2359glenn

untilthen said:


> There a lot of EL11 on eBay. You need to do some pioneering work again.


 

 Is it worth it given there cost and the trouble to make adapters for tubes that might or might not sound better then a EL3N that can be gotten for $25


----------



## pctazhp

WHAT A BUNCH OF WIMPS!!!!!!
  
 Come on BIG TALKERS. Who's going to be the first to order Glenn's EL3N amp???????
  
 When you do, please don't worry about me calling you a traitor and accusing you of tossing the Feliks family out on the streets begging for food. Of course, I will accuse you of all that and more, but by then you will be banned from this thread and won't be able to do anything about it.
  
 Oh, and please remember to recycle your Elise responsibly. My shipping address will be provided on request. As soon as I get enough of them to sell and raise the money for Glenn's amp I'll be joining you.
  
















  
 Just kidding everyone. Starting the weekend early


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Is it worth it given there cost and the trouble to make adapters for tubes that might or might not sound better then a EL3N that can be gotten for $25


 
  
 Very much doubt it, Glenn...but if the price was right, lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and some empty(?!) dark Winter days...now stop it, CJ - supposed to have finished with all this stuff...does it really ever end?!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(for the umpteenth time!!)...


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > Is it worth it given there cost and the trouble to make adapters for tubes that might or might not sound better then a EL3N that can be gotten for $25
> ...


 

 Most people don't know what it takes to make a good adapter


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> WHAT A BUNCH OF WIMPS!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 On _*what*_, my dear friend?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Can I have some of it?...


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Most people don't know what it takes to make a good adapter


 
  
 TOO RIGHT, Glenn!! I'll drink to that...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Suuup

2359glenn said:


> Most people don't know what it takes to make a good adapter


 
 What does it take? Any tips?


----------



## UntilThen

2359glenn said:


> Is it worth it given there cost and the trouble to make adapters for tubes that might or might not sound better then a EL3N that can be gotten for $25


 

 Too right. I already have 10 EL3Ns and a lovely pair of C3G. So @hypnos1  make sure those EL3Ng don't sound better than these red ones.


----------



## connieflyer

Now I know whete all the tubes went!


----------



## rudra

pctazhp said:


> WHAT A BUNCH OF WIMPS!!!!!!
> 
> Come on BIG TALKERS. Who's going to be the first to order Glenn's EL3N amp???????


 
 Had a chance about a month ago to purchase one of his EL3N amp but didn't due to various reasons
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I am sure one day I will get around to try his wonderful amp. Till then I will just enjoy the music with what I have.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> @Oskari
> these Cetron 7236 have these numbers. Can you decipher what they mean?
> 
> 131A
> ...




8340 looks like a YYWW date. Can't make sense of the rest.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


>




Nice! Made by Philips at Camperdown (Sydney) before the move to Hendon (near Adelaide) in 1946.


----------



## richdytch

My four cheap RCA 6080 tubes arrived today... initial impressions are that they certainly pair well with EL3N. At first it sounded like quite a dark combination, but on a closer listen it doesn't lack any detail. Quite weighty and warm with good bass. Better than the Mullard 6080 I have, but at this point still without the beautiful liquidity that keeps me coming back to the Chatham 6AS7G. Early days, I'll run them for a few days and see what happens.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Nice! Made by Philips at Camperdown (Sydney) before the move to Hendon (near Adelaide) in 1946.


 

 Interesting I didn't know that ! There's not a trace of Philips factory in Camperdown now. Only the Children's hospital. 
  
 Curious I search the web and found this documentation. http://www.oneillassociates.com.au/~poneill/Philips_valve_factory.shtml. That building is supposed to be the one in Camperdown in the 1930s....  There is a section with lots of black and white photos of the tube manufacturing operations. Very interesting. I wish that long gone era is still around because tubes are fascinating for us tube amp lovers.
  
 There you go. Philips EL3Ng 1939 - 1946
 http://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/items/415045


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> My four cheap RCA 6080 tubes arrived today... initial impressions are that they certainly pair well with EL3N. At first it sounded like quite a dark combination, but on a closer listen it doesn't lack any detail. Quite weighty and warm with good bass. Better than the Mullard 6080 I have, but at this point still without the beautiful liquidity that keeps me coming back to the Chatham 6AS7G. Early days, I'll run them for a few days and see what happens.


 

 Rich can you post a pic of your RCA 6080. I'm thinking of trying out a pair from Langrex. Cheap and new. Let's see how it sounds for myself. I have the RCA 6AS7G. Let's see if this is even remotely similar to those.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Too right. I already have 10 EL3Ns and a lovely pair of C3G.* So @hypnos1  make sure those EL3Ng don't sound better than these red ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can't promise that either UT, I'm afraid...they could indeed well be the "Gold Standard", mon ami - am bumping up your early pioneers here LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(just hope they weren't wearing _too_ many chains while carrying out some very delicate manoeuvres though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...er...perhaps I'm going back just a_ tad_ too far!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).
  
 Whatever, these long octal bases are gonna give me the opportunity to break(!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!) into them, get at the wires and thus reduce the number of contact surfaces, plus make for easier/better attachment to the new gold-plated-pin bases...wish me luck!
  


oskari said:


> Nice! Made by Philips at Camperdown (Sydney) before the move to Hendon (near Adelaide) in 1946.


 
  
 Thanks O...how do you know so much about so many different tubes, lol?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but do you know how _*good*_ they are, vs the Dutch/English/Germans/Austrians/Italians/French etc etc.?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


richdytch said:


> My four cheap RCA 6080 tubes arrived today... initial impressions are that they certainly pair well with EL3N. At first it sounded like quite a dark combination, but on a closer listen it doesn't lack any detail. Quite weighty and warm with good bass. Better than the Mullard 6080 I have, but at this point still without the beautiful liquidity that keeps me coming back to the Chatham 6AS7G. Early days, I'll run them for a few days and see what happens.


 
  
 Hi richdytch...yeah, those Chathams do certainly have a wonderful 'clean' fluidity about them that is very attractive - not unlike the mighty GEC variants - but just missing that extra weight/fuller dynamics, which is a crying shame lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Can't promise that either UT, I'm afraid...they could indeed well be the "Gold Standard", mon ami - am bumping up your early pioneers here LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You have been listening to this too much but Sam Cooke has an amazing voice.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks O...how do you know so much about so many different tubes, lol?!  ...but do you know how _*good*_ they are, vs the Dutch/English/Germans/Austrians/Italians/French etc etc.?! :wink_face: ...




Nope.


----------



## richdytch

@UntilThen here they are:



That's not actually the pair I'm running right now - I ordered 4 used tubes, but they all look identical in construction. 

Listening to Kissin's recordings of Beethoven's piano concertos now and they are handling it really well. Not a quiet-listening tube IMO - need to listen at real orchestra volume  - I blame Fletcher and Munsen. The upper mids seem very slight recessed, which I think is why they sound a little dull when played quietly. Proper volume though, and they do a good job of taming the sometimes harsh edges of a loud orchestra, with the EL3N also doing some of the work. 

@Hypnos1 - totally agree. I think if those Chathams had a tiny bit more weight, they'd be my dream tube. Still probably my favourite power tube overall, but then I don't have GEC 6AS7G or suchlike 

One more pic while I'm at it, of the ones at work.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> You have been listening to this too much but Sam Cooke has an amazing voice.




  
 Yo UT..._love_ that song - and his voice!...(he's no Aussie though...is he lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


oskari said:


> Nope.


 
  
 There was I believing you knew _everything_ LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...ah well, glad to see you are indeed human after all, O...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 HOWEVER, now you haven't convinced me the gold 'G' is going to trounce the 'Red Austrian' - along with UT's entreaties to me - I've had to pull the trigger on a (cheap, at least!) used EL11, just for curiosity's sake...*will...it...ever...end...?!!! *


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> HOWEVER, now you haven't convinced me the gold 'G' is going to trounce the 'Red Austrian' - along with UT's entreaties to me - I've had to pull the trigger on a (cheap, at least!) used EL11, just for curiosity's sake...*will...it...ever...end...?!!! *


 
 Yes ! Those Telefunkens EL11 has not left my mind since I lay eyes on them. Such beautiful tubes, bluish grey. They are the last of the Mohicans. So you just go ahead and test the EL11. We will be watching.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Interesting I didn't know that ! There's not a trace of Philips factory in Camperdown now. Only the Children's hospital.
> 
> Curious I search the web and found this documentation. http://www.oneillassociates.com.au/~poneill/Philips_valve_factory.shtml. That building is supposed to be the one in Camperdown in the 1930s....  There is a section with lots of black and white photos of the tube manufacturing operations. Very interesting. I wish that long gone era is still around because tubes are fascinating for us tube amp lovers.




Lots of photos. The file took ages to download. 

The building is still there:



 https://vintage-radio.com.au/default.asp?f=1&th=732&offset=1#4805
 https://vintage-radio.com.au/default.asp?f=1&th=732&offset=5#4881


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> The building is still there:


 
 I've to go and check it out. There might be some left over tubes in the basement.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> My four cheap RCA 6080 tubes arrived today... initial impressions are that they certainly pair well with EL3N. At first it sounded like quite a dark combination, but on a closer listen it doesn't lack any detail. Quite weighty and warm with good bass. Better than the Mullard 6080 I have, but at this point still without the beautiful liquidity that keeps me coming back to the Chatham 6AS7G. Early days, I'll run them for a few days and see what happens.


 
  
 That's interesting because I've been listening to some GE 6080 tubes I just received, which have some similar characteristics to those you ascribe to the RCA's.
  
 They are warm, honeyed, voluptuous and with more articulate bass than my RCA 6AS7's, which are equally warm.
  
 Should work very well with late night Jazz and brighter string recordings. They were very cheap to buy too.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I've to go and check it out. There might be some left over tubes in the basement.




Here is another local history factory tour for you: http://www.retrovox.addr.com/amv1052.html

Apparently nothing left to raid there but you could try 348 Victoria Rd, Rydalmere, another former AWV site.


----------



## connieflyer

Fascinating glimpse of history, thank you for taking the time to research and find this information. Labor and skill intensive, it is no wonder why they don't produce tubes in mass anymore. Good one.


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> They are warm, honeyed, voluptuous and with more articulate bass than my RCA 6AS7's, which are equally warm.
> 
> Should work very well with late night Jazz and brighter string recordings. They were very cheap to buy too.





I'd say you're on the money there.I've swapped out the EL3N with the stock TS 6SN7GTB and, in my system, they have a much better synergy with the 6080 than EL3N - in line with what I've experienced before. Way more involving - rounded, deep and airy. That is definitely a facet of these RCAs, great treble. They are definitely a keeper, they've come alive with 6SN7. I'll need more time but this combo sounds like it's on a similar par to EL3N/Chatham 6as7g for me.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> I'd say you're on the money there.I've swapped out the EL3N with the stock TS 6SN7GTB and, in my system, they have a much better synergy with the 6080 than EL3N - in line with what I've experienced before. Way more involving - rounded, deep and airy. That is definitely a facet of these RCAs, great treble. They are definitely a keeper, they've come alive with 6SN7. I'll need more time but this combo sounds like it's on a similar par to EL3N/Chatham 6as7g for me.


 
 That sounds very good. I'll experiment with different drivers too tonight.
 We are going round to friends for dinner- will spend all evening looking forward to some late night listening with the 6080's. Maybe some Chopin nocturnes


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Yes ! Those Telefunkens EL11 has not left my mind since I lay eyes on them. Such beautiful tubes, bluish grey. They are the last of the Mohicans. So you just go ahead and test the EL11. We will be watching.


 
  
 Why didn't I just keep my big mouth shut and take more notice of Glenn's sensible words, lol?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...ah well, more midnight oil I suppose...(but I still don't really like the prices of NOS EL11s, alas...).
  
 And once more, you obviously have an eye for a pretty skirt...or in this case _blouse!_





...and it(she!) does have much nicer _feet!__..._(very interesting "German Steel" ones, in fact...).
  
 Thanks - and to you @Oskari - for the info on Aussie tube-making...certainly no "small time" operation here! I never realised "valves" were made DownUnder on such a scale...presumably a good number of experienced workers took advantage of the "Ten Pound Poms" scheme after the War...if they didn't hop over before then, of course!...(not forgetting other foreign nationals also, lol...).
  
 Anyway, have no need then to doubt their version of the EL3N, I suspect! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...so it will be Philips (Austria) EL3N vs Philips (Australia) EL3NG vs Telefunken (Germany) EL11...when I manage to get another EL11 at a reasonable price, that is... and when I finally manage to find the time(?!!)...roll on Winter!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit. Just realised my EL11 is in fact a Tungsram...wonder where _this_ was made?!...


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> That sounds very good. I'll experiment with different drivers too tonight.
> We are going round to friends for dinner- will spend all evening looking forward to some late night listening with the 6080's. Maybe some Chopin nocturnes




enjoy!


----------



## richdytch

Well, RCA 6080 and TS reissue 6SN7GTB certainly whups Chatham 6AS7G/EL3N for electronic music. NTS radio kinda stuff. Detroit techno... Grime. They have the balls. But next time I want to listen to a Symphony I'll probably want the latter combo. This is problematic. 

Time to get my neighbour to 'confiscate' my spare tubes again. Although I am reminded of Lord Byron, who paid a man to keep him away from opium. As soon as the man became effective in his role, he was sacked.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Edit. Just realised my EL11 is in fact a Tungsram...wonder where _this_ was made?!...




Újpest, Budapest seems likely.


----------



## pctazhp

A lot of interesting technical information about tubes here:
  
 http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm
  
 And here:
  
 http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes
  
 Please understand I'm in no position to vouch for the accuracy of the information at either site.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Here is another local history factory tour for you: http://www.retrovox.addr.com/amv1052.html
> 
> Apparently nothing left to raid there but you could try 348 Victoria Rd, Rydalmere, another former AWV site.


 

 Radiation from the Rydalmere plant. I have seen that brand and also AWV. Well now I know what AWV means - Amalgamated Wireless Valve Company Pty Ltd. Ashfield has a manufacturing plant too for AWV too. 
  
 So I was right in saying Everything Comes DownUnder eventually .... Sing it John Mayer - Gravity !


----------



## UntilThen

I was asked by @connieflyer on what I felt were the differences between HE560 and T1 sound signature and if the planar magnetic has any advantage. Well I'll spend some time to listen to these headphones on some different songs and try and articulate the nuances that I hear. I have to come back later on this.
  
 There's no doubt I think both these 2 headphones sounds great with Elise..... and just for my curiosity and to spur on @hynos1 on his journey of discovery of EL3N vs EL3Ng vs EL11, I'll listen with 6xEL3N in Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just to kick start, I'm listening to the Sound Of Silence with the HE560 first.... now I know why Simon and Garfunkel sings better than me. I'm tapping my feet at 5:28am on a Sunday morning to the Sound Of Silence.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Radiation from the Rydalmere plant. I have seen that brand and also AWV. Well now I know what AWV means -Amalgamated Wireless Valve Company Pty Ltd. Ashfield has a manufacturing plant too for AWV too.




You still have the related AWA tower.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm onto the Canadian crooner Leonard Cohen now with 'In My Secret Life' ... this time with the T1. WOW this is hallowed ground. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There something magical here with T1 and Elise with 6xEL3N.


----------



## UntilThen

This will be a running commentary as I go. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Over The Rainbow by Melody Gardot... the opening instruments really stands out with the T1 but the HE560 weight overall especially in the bass department is awesome.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright just after these 3 songs I'm very sure I prefer the T1 with 6xEL3Ns. HE560 has more weight overall. It's a more fun headphone where the T1 sounds like a superb precision instrument. 
  
 Now will swap out the 4xEL3Ns power tubes for 7236 and I'm sure that will change the equation.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Over The Rainbow by Melody Gardot...




Fricking gorgeous!


----------



## UntilThen

With EL3N and 7236, it's harder to pick a winner. Both HE560 and T1 sounds very good on it. There's no doubt that 6xEL3N has more weight and a denser tone and will favor the T1 more.
  
 In a nutshell, T1 is more surgical and precise, has a leaner, tighter and more neutral tone. HE560 is in that mold too but it's quite obvious there's more weight in the bass but it's not boomy. Vocals are fuller as well. HE560 treble is not as revealing as T1 but only just. 
  
 I do know that I prefer T1 more with those 2 sets of tubes. I'm sure if I change to C3G and 5998, things will be a lot different again. It's with Leonard Cohen song 'In My Secret Life' - the HE560 brings out the best in his voice.
  
 There's no doubt that Elise is imminently tunable with different tubes. It's not just subtle differences but the many tubes that can be used in Elise does gives you nice tonal variations. This plus different headphones will set you on a path of eternal rolling in the deep but don't forget to enjoy your music.


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Over The Rainbow by Melody Gardot...
> ...




I may have to post this.


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/MI49t7t0ZAI[/VIDEO]


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Újpest, Budapest seems likely.


 
  
 Thanks O...now then, given the E11 appears to have been developed by Telefunken (or did they simply stick a different base on the Philips design?!), what chance the Hungarians matched the Germans with this tube?...(I know...how long's a piece of string, lol?!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks O...now then, given the E11 appears to have been developed by Telefunken (or did they simply stick a different base on the Philips design?!), what chance the Hungarians matched the Germans with this tube?...(I know...how long's a piece of string, lol?!!...:rolleyes:  ).




You'll have to find out. :wink_face:

And please do tell us. :bigsmile_face:


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> You'll have to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Roger, and out...time to go catch me a bucket load of giant (Spanish!) slugs - YEUCHH!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 G'night...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Roger, and out...time to go catch me a bucket load of giant (Spanish!) slugs - YEUCHH!! :confused_face: ...
> 
> G'night...




Tungsram made EL3Ns, EL33s and EL11s. They are probably all the same, base excepted.

Bloody annoying those slugs!


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I may have to post this.


 
 I'm in love. The video makes it even better. I'm sure I could play the drum like she does. Now this might be a day of more Melody Gardot.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> enjoy!


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Well, RCA 6080 and TS reissue 6SN7GTB certainly whups Chatham 6AS7G/EL3N for electronic music. NTS radio kinda stuff. Detroit techno... Grime. They have the balls. But next time I want to listen to a Symphony I'll probably want the latter combo. This is problematic.
> 
> Time to get my neighbour to 'confiscate' my spare tubes again. Although I am reminded of Lord Byron, who paid a man to keep him away from opium. As soon as the man became effective in his role, he was sacked.


 
 OMG never heard of most of them-but Chopin sounds divine with GE6080 and Bad Boy drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> OMG never heard of most of them-but Chopin sounds divine with GE6080 and Bad Boy drivers.


 

 Waiter, I'll have what he's having.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Waiter, I'll have what he's having.


 
  
 That's the problem when there are so many styles of music-I just can't find a 'one suit all' combination. It just goes on and on and on- oh no, I won't start that again!


----------



## Lord Raven

GEC 6AS7G or a new DAC?  I'm satisfied by the EL3N performance and you guys are going to try new tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> GEC 6AS7G or a new DAC?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You're DAC less now so what good is the GEC 6AS7G. Get a DAC. Those T1 should not be in storage.
  
 As for new tubes, we are trying new frontiers.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen try the T1's with this


----------



## pctazhp

Anyone remember???


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen try the T1's with this


 
 Listening with my benchmark EL3N and 5998. Very good.


----------



## connieflyer

Longest fingers I have ever seen, but she sure uses them well


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Anyone remember???


 
 No but this is a different version of Julie Andrews.


----------



## UntilThen

She can even do John Lennon.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> No but this is a different version of Julie Andrews.


 
 Great find. Really beautiful.
  
 Here's another oldie:
  
 
  
 With words added to a melody by Borodin from the Polovtsian Dances sequence of his opera "Prince Igor," "Stranger In Paradise" was the most popular tune to emerge from the 1953 Broadway musical "Kismet." The song was number 1 on Lucky Strike's TV show "Your Hit Parade" for 6 weeks. 
  
 I know this all doesn't mean anything to others, but Your Hit Parade was the first "Top 40" show on TV, although it was really "top 7". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_Hit_Parade   We got our first black and white TV in 1953 and I would not miss Your Hit Parade for ANYTHING ))))
  
 It was really the precursor to Dick Clark's American Bandstand.


----------



## UntilThen

You're taking me too far back in time. I may never come back to the present. 
  
 Let's spin something more contemporary.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You're taking me too far back in time. I may never come back to the present.
> 
> Let's spin something more contemporary.




 This may be the best song ever written - at least in my not so humble opinion. And she certainly does it justice.


----------



## pctazhp

What a world this is!!!  It's hard to believe the changes I've seen in my life: http://www.head-fi.org/t/785577/sennheiser-hd800s-unveiled/5400#post_12871483


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> What a world this is!!!  It's hard to believe the changes I've seen in my life: http://www.head-fi.org/t/785577/sennheiser-hd800s-unveiled/5400#post_12871483


 

 Well I'm sorry I call you Judge Judy, Captain @pctazhp .


----------



## mordy

Hi richdytch,
  
 I am glad that you like the bargain RCA 6080 tubes - looking for more opinions to validate my claim that these are great sounding power tubes in the Elise.
  
 Just switched from the EL3N to the Tung Sol reissue 6SN7GTB based on your recommendation. Sounds very good, but my first impression is that they are slower and more "syrupy". Overall the sound is very musical with great bass and treble, but the EL3N with the RCA 6080 tubes bring out more snap and intensity. On a subconscious level they don't evoke the toe tapping to the same extent. Anyhow, will let the tubes run for a while to warm up more and see how they do.
  
 My preference could all be system dependent - YMMV....Using the Elise as a preamp with speakers.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen try the T1's with this




  
 Thank you-that was nice music for early Sunday morning.


----------



## HOWIE13

Couldn't resist hearing how the 6 pack copes with Liszt's Schubert Transcriptions in Dora Deliyska's 'Doppelgänger' CD.
  
 This CD is an exemplary example of how I think a grand piano should be recorded. Full on, detailed, and richly layered in a helpful acoustic.
  
 Well, Elise has no problems, as expected- handling all the sonorities, colour, details and weighty low registers of the Bösendorfer with grace and aplomb. Totally realistic sound.
  
 Here's an example, not from the CD, which was a good 'wake me up' on a Sunday morning.
  
 If you look up the words of Goethe's Erlkönig they are pretty creepy.


----------



## Riverstalker

Anybody has experience with telefunken 6080 (6as7w) as driver and el3n as power tubes ? Could this combo work ?


----------



## richdytch

mordy said:


> Hi richdytch,
> 
> I am glad that you like the bargain RCA 6080 tubes - looking for more opinions to validate my claim that these are great sounding power tubes in the Elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Mordy, 
  
 I actually agree with you that the TS 6SN7GTB are richer and more soupy than EL3N. I think that at this point, as you suggest, it probably comes down to the frequency responses of our power amps and speakers, as well as our own taste. My speakers are noted for their crisp/fast/detailed (call it what you want) treble response. I think that whatever the EL3N/6080 combi is putting out doesn't match well with that for me. I really must try headphones some time - I'm like you, mainly a speaker listener. 

 I'll try EL3N again today - my ears weren't in great condition yesterday - my tinnitus was back to visit.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Tungsram made EL3Ns, EL33s and EL11s. They are probably all the same, base excepted.
> 
> Bloody annoying those slugs!


 
  
 Hmmm...very possibly not up to Telefunken standards if their EL3 is anything to go by, lol!...(wasn't at all impressed with the build quality compared to others' EL3Ns!!) - glad I didn't pay a lot for it. Still, mustn't judge before seeing it in the flesh/trying it.
  
 Have also grabbed a strong used Valvo for not much money, so it's gonna be interesting to compare construction/sound...but really need to find some _reasonably_ priced Teles - they do indeed _look_ a bit extra special LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...oh dear, what have I started here, O?...and why oh why do you keep encouraging me @UntilThen?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 But I'm afraid you're all going to have to be patient...could be a fair while before I can get all this sorted alas...
  
  


howie13 said:


> That's the problem when there are so many styles of music-I just can't find a 'one suit all' combination. It just goes on and on and on- oh no, I won't start that again!


 
  
 Aaah H13...perhaps my investment in the GECs and Osrams was well worth it on more than one front, lol...fabulous sound; versatile tube, and - (very handy, as far as I'm concerned!) - limited (none actually!) working of those amp sockets...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...but as usual, of course, _in my own setup!_...CHEERS!...


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Hi Mordy,
> 
> I actually agree with you that the TS 6SN7GTB are richer and more soupy than EL3N. I think that at this point, as you suggest, it probably comes down to the frequency responses of our power amps and speakers, as well as our own taste. My speakers are noted for their crisp/fast/detailed (call it what you want) treble response. I think that whatever the EL3N/6080 combi is putting out doesn't match well with that for me. I really must try headphones some time - I'm like you, mainly a speaker listener.
> 
> I'll try EL3N again today - my ears weren't in great condition yesterday - my tinnitus was back to visit.


 
  
 Another very musical, warm driver tube which synergises well with my 6080 tubes is Sylvania 6SN7WGT and for a more lively, up-beat sound the Sylvania 6SN7GTA. 
  
 Actually, I must have missed the fact you guys are using Elise as a pre-amp.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hmmm...very possibly not up to Telefunken standards if their EL3 is anything to go by, lol!...(wasn't at all impressed with the build quality compared to others' EL3Ns!!) - glad I didn't pay a lot for it. Still, mustn't judge before seeing it in the flesh/trying it.
> 
> Have also grabbed a strong used Valvo for not much money, so it's gonna be interesting to compare construction/sound...but really need to find some _reasonably_ priced Teles - they do indeed _look_ a bit extra special LOL!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll get to those GEC's eventually. Will probably have to sell my house and go down-market first though-wife may not be too happy with that. LOL.
  
 You know I chuckle a bit when I think of GEC. As a company in the UK making electrical products they were regarded as solid, middle of the road, but never, as I recall, a high end product manufacturer. 
 Maybe your memory is better than mine on this but I am sure we bought their stuff at good old Woolworths.
 It's fantastic how their valves sound so good- obviously tube appreciation wasn't all the rage in the 50-60's.


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> Anybody has experience with telefunken 6080 (6as7w) as driver and el3n as power tubes ? Could this combo work ?


 

 Never heard of a 6AS7W but if it's a 6080, you want to use that as power tubes and the EL3N as drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

Trust @mordy  to find me some cheap RCA 6080. Seller won't send downunder so he's buying it and then sending it to me. What a friendly and helpful community here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 $20 for 4. Incredible.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Have also grabbed a strong used Valvo for not much money, so it's gonna be interesting to compare construction/sound...*but really need to find some reasonably priced Teles* - they do indeed _look_ a bit extra special LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Task to find reasonably priced Teles? Who you going to call? Mordy


----------



## UntilThen

Alright these are original German tubes, that's what the seller says. 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL11-power-tubes-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-EL33-KT61-E2d-EL-11-/281772632773?hash=item419af52ac5:g:~O4AAOSw~gRVzK2m
  
 Made by Telefunken in the 1930s/40s. Older than any of us but still looking so new. How did they preserve it?


----------



## Spork67

I have had a pair of EL3N tubes for a littel while, and my 2 adapters arrived on Friday, just as I was heading off for a long weekend.
 Silly me. I'd bought the double adapter to fit 2 x EL3N into a power socket, not 2 x single adapters to use them as drivers.
 Got straight on to ebay and ordered 2 x single adapters, but I guess I'll also order another double and 4 more tubes as the "six pack" seems mighty popular around here.


----------



## Riverstalker

These seller is located in Germany but does not ship to Germany ?!?

They look beautiful though


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I have had a pair of EL3N tubes for a littel while, and my 2 adapters arrived on Friday, just as I was heading off for a long weekend.
> Silly me. I'd bought the double adapter to fit 2 x EL3N into a power socket, not 2 x single adapters to use them as drivers.
> Got straight on to ebay and ordered 2 x single adapters, but I guess I'll also order another double and 4 more tubes as the *"six pack" seems mighty popular around here.*


 
 It's what we aspire to... someday.


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> These seller is located in Germany but does not ship to Germany ?!?
> 
> They look beautiful though


 
 Yeah that's strange. I didn't notice that they won't send to Germany.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> It's what we aspire to... someday.


 
  
 been there done that - 3 decades ago.
 These days it's more like:


----------



## HOWIE13

Can't get the Elrking out of my head so here's Schubert's original to Goethe's words. It's performed by the legendary partnership of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Gerald Moore.
  
 It's a self-explanatory video so no need to understand German, only difference is in the original the father and child are on horseback-hence the galloping rhythm which pervades the whole song.
  
 Gothic-Romanticism doesn't get much more dramatic than this.


----------



## HOWIE13

riverstalker said:


> These seller is located in Germany but does not ship to Germany ?!?
> 
> They look beautiful though


 
  
 It's worrying to me that he doesn't sell in his own country, especially as he doesn't accept returns.


----------



## 2359glenn

howie13 said:


> riverstalker said:
> 
> 
> > These seller is located in Germany but does not ship to Germany ?!?
> ...


 
 I don't know if Europe is like the US if you sell to someone in your own State your supposed to collect taxes.


----------



## Riverstalker

Yap, seller explains it in the description. Taxes for german customers ! Weard ebay shop anyway, don't see anything else to buy there ...


----------



## Oskari

It can't be that because he manages to collect the same taxes from non-German EU customers.


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> Another very musical, warm driver tube which synergises well with my 6080 tubes is Sylvania 6SN7WGT and for a more lively, up-beat sound the Sylvania 6SN7GTA.
> 
> Actually, I must have missed the fact you guys are using Elise as a pre-amp.


 
  
 Thanks for the tip-off Howie. I'll look into those. In terms of 6SN7 I have, obviously, the stock TS, then I have 1950 Ken Rad, 1944 Ken Rad VT231, then a couple of pairs of mid 1950s RCAs. The 50s RCAs are really lacking in general I find - a very thin sound. The Ken Rads are lovely but don't seem to work as well with RCA 6080 as the TS do, at least in my system. 
  
 And yeah, I originally joined headfi when I didn't have any speakers, and headphones were my listening life. But now I have decent speakers, I only use headphones very late at night.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Thanks for the tip-off Howie. I'll look into those. In terms of 6SN7 I have, obviously, the stock TS, then I have 1950 Ken Rad, 1944 Ken Rad VT231, then a couple of pairs of mid 1950s RCAs. The 50s RCAs are really lacking in general I find - a very thin sound. The Ken Rads are lovely but don't seem to work as well with RCA 6080 as the TS do, at least in my system.
> 
> And yeah, I originally joined headfi when I didn't have any speakers, and headphones were my listening life. But now I have decent speakers, I only use headphones very late at night.


 
  
 Those 6SN7's I mentioned were reasonably priced, at least not ridiculously expensive. I really like the K-R VT231 for piano, but find the upper end a bit thin for vocals. Maybe would suit vocals better in a room speaker system as you gain the warmth of the room acoustics.
  
 I used to only listen to room speakers but my wife now bans me from having music on loud as we are in an apartment-and she doesn't want to upset the neighbours-so it's headphones for me.


----------



## Oskari

riverstalker said:


> Anybody has experience with telefunken 6080 (6as7w) as driver and el3n as power tubes ? Could this combo work ?




Perhaps you know this…

… but these tubes were not made by Telefunken…



 http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/1665#post_11750496

… whereas these were.



 http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/1665#post_11750707


----------



## Riverstalker

Lots to learn, thx for the hint.


----------



## connieflyer

Just to wake some of you up (you know who I mean!)


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Just to wake some of you up (you know who I mean!)




 I already woke up to @Spork67 anatomical "six-pack" image!!! I needed the sabres just to get that image out of my mind))))


----------



## connieflyer

He stole the picture from one of my old scrapbooks, when I was younger, say about 100 years ago!


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> Those 6SN7's I mentioned were reasonably priced, at least not ridiculously expensive. I really like the K-R VT231 for piano, but find the upper end a bit thin for vocals. Maybe would suit vocals better in a room speaker system as you gain the warmth of the room acoustics.
> 
> I used to only listen to room speakers but my wife now bans me from having music on loud as we are in an apartment-and she doesn't want to upset the neighbours-so it's headphones for me.


 
  
 Those were pretty much my reasons for using headphones too. We moved into a small cottage at a time when we had young children, and it was more a case of not disturbing them at night, than it was about neighbours. Same end result though. We're not exactly in a big house these days, and have neighbours joined on to us, but they're either incredibly tolerant or completely deaf. They claim they can't hear any of my music - but I can hear them vacuuming their living room. Great neighbours, mustn't abuse the situation. 
  
 The KR VT231 do have a rather gaping hole in the midrange. I think that's how they manage to sound so wonderful in combination with power tubes that are rich or even harsh  in the mids. They're a nice natural smile EQ, what with their extended treble and great bass.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Task to find reasonably priced Teles? Who you going to call? Mordy


 
  
 Have learned from mordy, so have already found a nice couple of German EL11s - one Telefunken and one RFT (East German, but looking EXACTLY like the Tele!). Very good prices- since used -  but reading 32mA (where 36mA is NOS) so plenty of life left...:
  

  

  
 Both ca 1947...(but wouldn't be at all surprised if they are indeed Philips EL3Ns in a different dress and with different feet LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). But at least it'll be an interesting exercise..._*hopefully!!!*_





...
  
 Edit. Just realised - slight use means..._*no need for extra-long burn-in...GREAT!! *_


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Have learned from mordy, so have already found a nice couple of German EL11s - one Telefunken and one RFT (East German, but looking EXACTLY like the Tele!). Very good prices- since used -  but reading 32mA (where 36mA is NOS) so plenty of life left...:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 What a well timed cue you have just given me H1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !!
  
 I've just been listening to all 9 of my Philips EL3N's, 3 new, 6 old, grimy and dirty (I did, however, clean the contacts). As single drivers, using various power tubes, I have no doubt that the older EL3N's are more musical, euphonic, richer- whatever you want to call it. They extend deeper into the bass and the treble is a little sweeter.
 .
 Of course, the new ones are marvellous too- but just listening side by side that's how I feel they compare.
  
 It's very good news for everyone, we are all winners - those who have old used ones don't need to burn-in, and those with smart, new, pristine ones can look forward to the ever improving sound of already wonderful sounding tubes.


----------



## mordy

Saw somewhere that if you go on the Polish eBay site you get all European listings. Between you and Google Translate, what does Polish matter?
  
 http://www.ebay.pl/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=EL%2011&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
  
 H1, looks like you submitted best offer on both - well done!
  
 http://www.ebay.pl/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=EL%2011&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
  
 In order to find out what previous items sold for, go to the right side of the item screen and click on the last item: Sold Items. Pick the lowest price and submit a lower offer. A good seller will not be insulted and perhaps make you a counteroffer that you may be willing to accept.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Have learned from mordy, so have already found a nice couple of German EL11s - one Telefunken and one RFT (East German, but looking EXACTLY like the Tele!).




Not necessarily that surprising: Telefunken assets in the Soviet zone, such as the tube factory in Neuhaus, were taken over by RFT.

P.S. You just can't help it!


----------



## mordy

Here is a 5998 Tung Sol - worth reading the description of this Explosive tube in the best Italian-English translation:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOUGHT-AFTER-DOUBLE-TRIODE-HEINTZ-KAUFMANN-5998-421A-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-NOS-NIB-/272379961267?hash=item3f6b1c5fb3:g:OuAAAOSwmfhX3Uim


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> What a well timed cue you have just given me H1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo H13...it'll be interesting to see if your newbies get closer to your oldies with much further burn-in! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


mordy said:


> Saw somewhere that if you go on the Polish eBay site you get all European listings. Between you and Google Translate, what does Polish matter?
> 
> http://www.ebay.pl/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=EL%2011&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed mordy...first time I've had "best offer" accepted straight off - IMHO the trick is to make a _*fair*_ offer, and not to be insulting LOL!...so £37 for the 2 I think ain't too bad!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but did even better just a few minutes ago! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...as per below...
  


oskari said:


> Not necessarily that surprising: Telefunken assets in the Soviet zone, such as the tube factory in Neuhaus, were taken over by RFT.
> 
> P.S. You just can't help it!


 
  
 Well, my dear, wonderful Oskari...you've just made my day...have just managed to snaffle a nice pair of RFT EL11s that look almost new (but don't have any readings, alas), for the Princely sum of under £16 LOL!...mind you, the shipping is £21!!! But in such a case - when you can bag 'em at a really good price! - that high shipping becomes academic...and actually, I believe, can possibly be a bonus as it no doubt puts off some from bidding! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(just don't ask why I keep getting more tubes though!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...as you say..._*just can't help it!!!*_








...  :
  

  
 Anyone drooling yet, @UntilThen?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Riverstalker

These polish links are actually a german seller. Just google "roehrenfritze ebay" and he pops up. Maybe that helps with the translation . For any questions feel free to ask, his shop is very user friendly though.
By the way: both tubes are marked as broken in the description.
No warranty but a 30 day return policy.


----------



## geetarman49

riverstalker said:


> These polish links are actually a german seller. Just google "roehrenfritze ebay" and he pops up. Maybe that helps with the translation . For any questions feel free to ask, his shop is very user friendly though.
> By the way: both tubes are marked as broken in the description.
> No warranty but a 30 day return policy.


 

 i don't think h1 has anything to worry about - both tubes are described as functional with solid readings - the defective descriptor, i believe, is being used because the seller doesn't warranty potential damage from transport once it leaves his hands.
  
 i think h1 has made a great buy ... congrats.


----------



## Riverstalker

Sure, tubes should work. He just sells them as "defect" to avoid the 12/24 month waranty.


----------



## UntilThen

I can hear Telefunkens and RFT in my sleep! What's RFT by the way?
  
 @hypnos1 are you buying the world's supply of EL11 and on-selling them to us? 
  
 EL11 seems about the same size as EL3N. If it works, those feet are probably better than the paddle feet. So the big question we all want to know is - how does it sound. SO you have to bring Winter forward.


----------



## connieflyer

See post below


----------



## connieflyer

http://www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id139.html Very interesting history.
 Up to 1939, Telefunken was purely a distribution company that sold items produced by either of its parent companies, AEG and Siemens, as well as products made by third-party manufacturers. That changed on July 1, 1939, when AEG and Siemens agreed to consolidate all their vacuum tube production into one entity.  Up to that date all of the Telefunken labeled tubes were either made at the Osram light-bulb factory "Werk A" located in Berlin, the vacuum tube factories of AEG in Berlin Oberschoenweide or the Siemens Wernerwerk in Muenchen.  Because of the fact that the Osram (also a joint venture of AEG and Siemens) plant "A" was already Germany's leading vacuum tube manufacturing plant, all other production machinery from the other factories that were involved with vacuum or radio tube production were relocated to "Werk A" and the manufacturing plant started to operate as "Telefunken Gesellschaft Roehrenwerk Berlin"
 The future of the newly introduced steel tubes was not too rosy or benign.  With the outbreak of WWII, within a few months, what was once the consumer oriented steel tube production became the backbone of the Nazi electronic war machine.  About 80% of all wartime electronics was built around the steel tube.  The most famous of the so called Wunderwaffen was the Aggregate 4 better known as the V2 rocket.  It used four EF14 steel tubes in its guidance system and historically the steel tube became the first vacuum tube that proved itself space worthy.  During the war Telefunken expanded the production of the steel tubes to all captured tube factories in the occupied countries. Telefunken also expanded the production within Germany and set up two more tube factories; one in Erfurt and one in Neuhaus (both of those became RFT tube factories after the war).  It is not 100% certain how many steel tubes were made during the war, but starting after 1940, several companies started to manufacture glass versions of the steel tubes to meet the demands of the war. 
 Due to the massive Allied bombing of Germany at the closing of WWII, nearly all Telefunken tube factories were all or partially destroyed including much of the documenation for producing these tubes.  By the end of the war only the make shift tube factory in Ulm (relocated during the war from Lotz, Poland) was still operational, but it did not have steel tube production capabilities.


----------



## UntilThen

Yeah but what does RFT stands for? Someone suggested that it stands for 'Really Fantastic Tubes'  lol.


----------



## mordy

In my 6AK5 Little Dot days I bought some Australian made 6AK5 Mullard look alikes, including the little round plastic pin protectors. I thought that I bought Mullard made Australian tubes, but I think they were made by Amalgamated in Sydney. In any case, they did not sound as good as the British Mullard 6AK5/EF95 tubes.
  
 Should be interesting to find out how the Australian EL3NG tubes compare to the Austrian Philips EL3N.
  
 A lot of the Mullard/Philips tooling was sold/shared with Panasonic in the 50's (called Matsushiita then - intentionally misspelled so as not to be censured by Head-Fi which rightfully censors four letter words - don't know how that other S brand gets away with it, but I digress).
  
 However, I do not know if Matsu made any 6080/6AS7 tubes, although they did make 6SN7 tubes which are quite good. Oskari?


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I can hear Telefunkens and RFT in my sleep! What's RFT by the way?







> RFT stands for Rundfunk- und Fernmelde-Technik - a group of state-owned technology companies in the former German Democratic Republic (East Germany).
> — Watford Valves







> RFT was not a manufacturer but consortium of state-owned companies (VEB) in the field of radio and television in the former DDR (East Germany).
> — Crypto Museum






 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rundfunk-_und_Fernmelde-Technik


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> However, I do not know if Matsu made any 6080/6AS7 tubes, … Oskari?




Perhaps not. Can't remember having seen any.


----------



## UntilThen

Got it Oskari, thanks. RFT is also Right First Time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I just had a mesmerizing moment with these tubes in Elise and Beyer T1. I just can't believe how good it sound...


----------



## geetarman49

all this talk about toobs ... while i didn't comment in the recent discussion about FA embarking on a new balanced edition, i would very much encourage them to do so, particularly accommodating tube rectification using this bad boy:  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NIB-GIANT-VACCUME-TUBE-JAN-5973-WESTINGOUSE-SUPER-RARE-MINT-PERFECT-COND-/281473730530?hash=item41892447e2:g:ewsAAOxyMxpRoYdg


----------



## UntilThen

Holy moly what is that?


----------



## mordy

This is what it is:
  
   5973


     
    
 

 
 Country:
 United States of America (USA)
 
Brand:General Electric Co. (GE); Bridgeport CT, Syracuse NYTube type: Half-Wave Vacuum Rectifier   Power-supply 

Identical to*5973*
  
*Base*OTHER TUBEBASE in general*Was used by*Industrial*Filament*Vf 16 Volts / If 19.1 Ampere / Direct / Parallel, (AC/DC) /*Dimensions (WHD)
 incl. pins / tip*156 x 486 x mm / 6.14 x 19.13 x inch*Weight*1361 g / 48.01 oz 
 

   








5973: Eigenes Bild
 Anonymous 971 Collector 
 
 

 Wonder if the person holding the tube is old guy radiola.....


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> This is what it is:
> 
> 5973
> 
> ...


 
 Errrrr. Sex education class will start in the morning at 9 am sharp, Arizona time. Subject will be: How to tell men from women. No discussion of large tubes will be permitted during class.
  
 Well, I guess I'm in trouble now. Nice knowing all of you


----------



## UntilThen

Chatham 6520 is denser and more saturated than Chatham 6AS7G. If RCA 6080 sounds anything close to Chatham 6520, it will be a deal breaker. So let's see... when it does come.
  
 The combination of EL3N and 6520 produces an intoxicating sound through T1. There's the high frequency sparkle with a flesh out mids and well endowed bass, with just the right touch of warm and lushness. T1 does not sound high pitch now. It's an organic, voluptuous tone.


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> i don't think h1 has anything to worry about - both tubes are described as functional with solid readings - the defective descriptor, i believe, is being used because the seller doesn't warranty potential damage from transport once it leaves his hands.
> 
> i think h1 has made a great buy ... congrats.


 
  
 Thanks...and thanks g49 - sure hope it _is_ a great buy lol!...time will tell...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


untilthen said:


> I can hear Telefunkens and RFT in my sleep! What's RFT by the way?
> 
> @hypnos1 are you buying the world's supply of EL11 and on-selling them to us?
> 
> EL11 seems about the same size as EL3N. If it works, those feet are probably better than the paddle feet. So the big question we all want to know is - how does it sound. SO you have to bring Winter forward.


 
  
 Y'know, UT, I too could swear I'm hearing them call to me already from across the North Sea! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 From @Oskari and @connieflyer's  info on Telefunken and RFT - and given that the "name" Telefunken _very often_ indicates about the best tubes you can get, I'm really looking forward to this exercise...even if it does mean shaking myself out of my current torpor LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hopefully,* if* they do have an edge over the Philips tubes, a stash of them may appear on the scene at a reasonable price - and be worth MrsX's while making (yet more!!) adapters...a lot of _*ifs and maybes*_ here though, alas!
  
 Will do my best re timescale, but it looks like I'm gonna be a good few weeks behind at the moment...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...patience? - mine seems to be diminishing with every passing year!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...
  
 ps @mordy...let's hope they did a better job with the EL3N than the 6AK5 lol!!...perhaps fishing for the German tubes will be a good insurance policy...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Y'know, UT, I too could swear I'm hearing them call to me already from across the North Sea!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 This should give you an idea of the quality.


----------



## UntilThen

Last tour and farewell song from Crowded House on the forecourt of the Opera House.
  
 Don't Dream It's Over.


----------



## louisxiawei

Hey guys,
  
 My  new Mullard 6080WA arrived today. However, When I put them on the Elise first time, after switched on for about 5 minutes, I can hear a ring-ish sound like "Dang" from the right channel like every other 5 seconds. Is it normal? 
  
 After I played few songs, the interval time of that "dang" noise gets longer, like every 20 seconds and that "Dang" goes quieter. Any idea what that sound is? Is it supposed to be like that as new tubes?


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> My  new Mullard 6080WA arrived today. However, When I put them on the Elise first time, after switched on for about 5 minutes, I can hear a ring-ish sound like "Dang" from the right channel like every other 5 seconds. Is it normal?
> 
> After I played few songs, the interval time of that "dang" noise gets longer, like every 20 seconds and that "Dang" goes quieter. Any idea what that sound is? Is it supposed to be like that as new tubes?


 

 Louis, I'm really happy for you. I am smiling for you not because of the 'dang' sound but what you told me. Please share your experience with the group here.
  
 I feel extreme joy when someone tells me how wonderful Elise sounds even on the first listen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 ps.. that noise is probably the tube being new and breaking in. If it doesn't go away after several hours, let us know otherwise you are fine and should have a wonderful time listening to music.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Louis, I'm really happy for you. I am smiling for you not because of the 'dang' sound but what you told me. Please share your experience with the group here.
> 
> I feel extreme joy when someone tells me how wonderful Elise sounds even on the first listen.
> 
> ...


 
 UT helped me out by PM, thanks a lot. I will keep an ear on the noise after several hours burn-in.
 Now I can finally enjoy the beauty of Elise.  
  
 I'm not a fuzzy person or having any placebo effect but I've never heard my T1 like this good before. I especially listened to Alice Sara Ott's new album "Wonderland: Edvard Grieg -  Piano Concerto" with my SS-amp lehmann linear over and over again during last weekend due to the bad stock tube and want to have a fresh comparison.
  
 Alice produced the requisite thunder and lightning yet poetic passion in this concerto of Grieg. As I told UT in PM, first listen out of Elise is amazing. I'm so shocked. The sound is so grand and rich. Musically dynamic explosion while micro-detail are more real and lush, I feel no odd when capturing those details (string, bassoon, Cello bass, etc they are just musical compared to no-musical, analytical SS-amp Lehmann) . 
  
 I have a feeling that with my SS-AMP Lehamnn, I was listening to a very sonic produced album record. With Elise, I feel like I sit in the concert grand hall listen to this beautiful piece with red velvet curtain behind it. (I'm not exaggerating). Maybe the lushness reminds me of the red velvet curtain on the stage.
  
 Keep burning.
  
 Will keep you update with my Elise. Thanks again for all your guys' wonderful recommendation.


----------



## richdytch

louisxiawei said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> My  new Mullard 6080WA arrived today. However, When I put them on the Elise first time, after switched on for about 5 minutes, I can hear a ring-ish sound like "Dang" from the right channel like every other 5 seconds. Is it normal?
> 
> After I played few songs, the interval time of that "dang" noise gets longer, like every 20 seconds and that "Dang" goes quieter. Any idea what that sound is? Is it supposed to be like that as new tubes?


 
 Hi Louis, I have a phenomenon like that with my elise in both channels simultaneously. It varies depending on the tubes I'm using. I've always assumed it was something to do with a ground loop that I've never quite managed to isolate... but I really am not sure. 
  
 It doesn't generally bother me... these days. I've learned to accept it... if I connect to amp with lower gain than my quad, I can't hear it at all.


----------



## richdytch

So folks, here's a question. If I wanted to achieve the weight of the RCA 6080, as well as its ability to turn down the glare on sharp recordings, BUT also to combine it with the silky transparency of the Chatham 6AS7G, which power tube would you recommend? 
  
 Answers on a postcard please, thank you!
  
 PS I can't afford anything made by GEC.


----------



## UntilThen

@richdytch  I'm going to address those 2 things one at a time.
  
 I'm not sure the 'dang' noise is normal or what it's attributed to. All I know is in my setup with headphones or using Elise as preamp, with any tubes, I have zero noise. That's right. Zero.
  
 To get weight, lushness and transparency at the same time depends on the whole chain, not just the tubes used in Elise. Because I can tell you which tube combination gives me that but then I'm using T1 mainly, at times modded HD650 or HE560. You are using speakers.
  
 So for me, to get weight, transparency, warm and lushness with T1 headphone, I'd pick EL3N and Chatham 6520. 5998 works too. If I'm using modded HD650, I could even have gone with C3G and 5998 because HD650 has a more saturated tone.
  
 ps... I should add that the eventual sound you hear depends on driver and power tube combination because you have only mention about power tube recommendation.


----------



## Oskari

louisxiawei said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> My  new Mullard 6080WA arrived today. However, When I put them on the Elise first time, after switched on for about 5 minutes, I can hear a ring-ish sound like "Dang" from the right channel like every other 5 seconds. Is it normal?
> 
> After I played few songs, the interval time of that "dang" noise gets longer, like every 20 seconds and that "Dang" goes quieter. Any idea what that sound is?




Thermal expansion?


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Thermal expansion?


 

 Yup, it goes 'Tick tock, tick tock.... boom'.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Yup, it goes 'Tick tock, tick tock.... boom'.




Not as violent as that.


----------



## pctazhp

I want to say something about noise. Like @UntilThen I have had virtually no problem with tube noise. I did have a hum with ECC20 but that was easily solved with grounding. And I had some early problems with the EL3N six-pack, but I think that might have been an adapter problem or just needed burn-in time on some of the EL3Ns I was using. For me the six-pack is not one of my favorites, so I haven't used it in a long time. Unlike UT, I don't use Elise as a pre-amp.
  
 Other than that I have had ZERO noise with all the numerous tubes I have had in my Elise.
  
 It seems to me that sounds like thumping or dangs aren't ground loop problems, which should sound like a steady hum. And it seems that such problems are far more likely related to tubes themselves instead of something defective with the Elise. I don't see how it could be a design problem with the Elise as many people seem to have no problem. And given the age of most of the tubes we use, it seems like the tubes are more suspect than a defective part in the Elise.
  
 Having said that, I do understand the frustration those who deal with such problems must feel and I empathize.


----------



## UntilThen

I did have a 5998 that died before my eyes. I had just received a pair of 5998 and was trying it out in the Darkvoice 336se. This was before Elise arrived. As you can see in the photo before, the left tube looks dodgy. It has some kind of rust or whatever at the base of the glass. When I power on the DV, I saw a flash of light go up the filament. I reached for the power button faster than the speed of light. It was scarier than hearing tick tock tick tock.
  
 Anyway that tube literally became coated with powdery stuff inside the glass after the flash of light. A picture is somewhere in the old Elise thread. So @pctazhp  is correct. You can never tell with these tubes. Not even a $100 Tung Sol 5998. Fortunately eBay got me my refund.


----------



## Riverstalker

My stock tubes make some klicking / dangling sound too during warm up. After two minutes dead silent. Just like our stove. Ordered a HD 600 today, hope elise and this cans will team up well. Had a DT880 600 ohms and a HD 650 for a few days. 880 is too bright and the 650 was quite good but a bit dark sounding even with elise. Hope the 600s are somewhere in between.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I did have a 5998 that died before my eyes. I had just received a pair of 5998 and was trying it out in the Darkvoice 336se. This was before Elise arrived. As you can see in the photo before, the left tube looks dodgy. It has some kind of rust or whatever at the base of the glass. When I power on the DV, I saw a flash of light go up the filament. I reached for the power button faster than the speed of light. It was scarier than hearing tick tock tick tock.
> 
> Anyway that tube literally became coated with powdery stuff inside the glass after the flash of light.




The tube expired, lost vacuum. It is an ex-vacuum tube.


----------



## louisxiawei

oskari said:


> Thermal expansion?


 
 Thanks Oskari.
  
 After 2 hours, the dang sound still exists every time I switch on. After around 15 minutes, I can still hear some very tiny small "dang" sound but barely can bother me. But if I increase the volume to the maximum, the noisy, signal interference sound increases. It is still not zero noise so far. (not perfection yet)
  
 I will keep burning for several days and see where it goes. I do have a feeling it's like metal material thermal expansion.
  
 I still remember, although my bad stock tube generated unbalance sound from channels, they don't make the dang sound. So I think it's the 6080WA's problem.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> My  new Mullard 6080WA arrived today. However, When I put them on the Elise first time, after switched on for about 5 minutes, I can hear a ring-ish sound like "Dang" from the right channel like every other 5 seconds. Is it normal?
> 
> After I played few songs, the interval time of that "dang" noise gets longer, like every 20 seconds and that "Dang" goes quieter. Any idea what that sound is? Is it supposed to be like that as new tubes?


 
 Lots of my tubes do that. I assume it's microphony due to the tube heating up because it usually goes after about 20 minutes. For that reason, if I know I've a tube like that I wait 20 minutes after switching on before listening.
  
 I've had an occasional tube, however, which has continued making that noise and if it intrudes on the music I've had to ditch it. That's only happened on a couple of occasions though.


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> My stock tubes make some klicking / dangling sound too during warm up. After two minutes dead silent. Just like our stove. Ordered a HD 600 today, hope elise and this cans will team up well. Had a DT880 600 ohms and a HD 650 for a few days. 880 is too bright and the 650 was quite good but a bit dark sounding even with elise. Hope the 600s are somewhere in between.


 

 Both HD600 and HD650 sounds good on Elise. Different sound signature but depending on a person's preference, either one can be engaging. If you're after details, you'll pick HD600. Stock HD650 just feels too warm and lush but on some genres it's perfect. Try listening to some smokey blues.
  
 However that is with stock tubes, which IMO is rather warm and lush. Perfect if you like it that way. I know I was at the beginning of my head-fi journey but my preference shifted as I go along, to a more neutral tone with micro details and tight fisted bass.
  
 You could tune HD650 to sound brighter with a change of tubes. Even just replacing the drivers to C3G, you'll get a brighter sound. I particularly like C3G and 5998 with HD650. If you want an even leaner tone, try C3G and 7236.
  
 You'll be pleased with HD600 on Elise though.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> Lots of my tubes do that. I assume it's microphony due to the tube heating up because it usually goes after about 20 minutes. For that reason, if I know I've a tube like that I wait 20 minutes after switching on before listening.
> 
> I've had an occasional tube, however, which has continued making that noise and if it intrudes on the music I've had to ditch it. That's only happened on a couple of occasions though.


 
 Thanks Howie13 for confirming this. Will keep listening and keep you guys update.
  
 Elise is just so good, I don't want to leave my desk now. Every album is a new album to me, I'm listening to them all over again and I'm positive that I'm not hyped since I only slept 2 hours last night due to the late work, usually I will go back to bed to catch some sleep to recover some energy, now the Elise is the energy.


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks Howie13 for confirming this. Will keep listening and keep you guys update.
> 
> Elise is just so good, I don't want to leave my desk now. Every album is a new album to me, I'm listening to them all over again and I'm positive that I'm not hyped since I only slept 2 hours last night due to the late work, usually I will go back to bed to catch some sleep to recover some energy, now the Elise is the energy.


 
 I'm glad you like Elise because when you came to us, you were debating between Elise and another tube amp that is a lot more expensive.
 If you're confident of what you hear, there's nothing to worry about hype because practically every new owner share the same delight. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Enjoy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 I bought my Mullard 6080 used from a tube amp user who told me he has about 200 hundred hours on them. That could explain why mine sounds quiet without funny noise. Now that I think about it, some of my tubes does groan a bit on warming up but it goes off after a while. It's quite normal.


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks Howie13 for confirming this. Will keep listening and keep you guys update.
> 
> Elise is just so good, I don't want to leave my desk now. Every album is a new album to me, I'm listening to them all over again and I'm positive that I'm not hyped since I only slept 2 hours last night due to the late work, usually I will go back to bed to catch some sleep to recover some energy, *now the Elise is the energy. *


 
  
 Careful now, lwei...sounds like you're addicted already...this is a _*very*_ slippery slope, believe me lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...
  
 ps. I do hope your 'dang' does indeed fade away...if not, perhaps a note to the seller may be in order LOL!... HAPPY LISTENING!...CJ


----------



## Riverstalker

I'd love to own a pair of 5998, read so many good things about them.

Had a darn good listen this afternoon with Elise as preamp. Was about to sell my speakers but with that little amp they really start to sing. I am so happy folks !


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> @richdytch  I'm going to address those 2 things one at a time.
> 
> I'm not sure the 'dang' noise is normal or what it's attributed to. All I know is in my setup with headphones or using Elise as preamp, with any tubes, I have zero noise. That's right. Zero.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT. Your points are duly noted. I was in fact just referring to power tubes. I understand what you mean about the whole scenario, but I'd add that I believe it's possible to recognise the character of various power tubes, to a greater or lesser degree depending on what they're paired with - but that you can still usually hear their characteristics at play. 

 Chatham 6250 does seem to be a contender - I had that at the back of my mind. Is that the tube which has a Cetron equivalent which sounds, or even IS, the same? 
 Regarding the noise I get with Elise, I have no hiss whatsoever that is audible over speakers or headphones. What I do have though, is a sound that is 50Hz mains interference in its origin, and which sounds like it is being shaped like a crude ADSR envelop. I sounds like someone banging a dull bell in the background. BOOOONNNNNNG. I believe it could also be identified as a 'DANG'. In between these intermittent dangs and bongs, it's totally silent. It sometimes goes away for days. Then it'll come back very loudly for a short while. But on the whole it's totally manageable and inaudible while any music is playing. It's definitely not mechanical in origin - being as it is amplitude-modulated 50Hz, 100Hz, 200Hz etc in diminishing levels - the tone of mains interference/ground loop. Sculpted into a BONG. It makes no difference whether the amp has been on for 30 mins or 12 hours. 

 I don't think I can explain it more thoroughly than that. If I use a power amp which doesn't have such silly gain, such as my Topping or old Marantz, it's totally inaudible.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> I'm glad you like Elise because when you came to us, you were debating between Elise and another tube amp that is a lot more expensive.
> If you're confident of what you hear, there's nothing to worry about hype because practically every new owner share the same delight.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Haha 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Glad you still remember the debate I brought up. It's not a hard decision for me to be honest. Elise vs Iconaudio HP8 MKIII
  

Thread discussion page : Elise vs Iconaudio 1:0
Flexibility for tube rolling : Elise vs Iconaudio 2:0
Aesthetic design: Elise vs Iconaudio 3:0 (subjective)
Customer service: Elise vs Iconaudio 4:0
  
 I called Icon audio at that struggling moment, the man answered the phone seems to be polite but creating a quite rush feeling, mentioning the price of their product is going to be increased by 10% by any time, something like " you need to buy it now, cut the bs question", and even more ridiculously, when I ask him about whether your amp have a pre-amp output or just loop-out output, he told me nothing so sophisticated like pre-amp output otherwise they will double the price, I was thinking "What?, pre-amp output is a sophisticated design can make you double the price? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) while lukasz just answered me everything, no matter stupid or troublesome. I know myself as a pain-in-the-ass buyer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Although I cannot confirm which sound of them is better, I'm definitely a happy buyer now.
 Nice Mullard 6080 tubes. I contacted several sellers regarding difference between Mullard 6080 and Mullard 6080WA, some of them told me no difference, some of them told me 6080WA has better spec.
  
 According to @pctazhp's experience, Mullard 6080 is nothing similar to GEC 6AS7G, thus I go for the Mullard 6080WA since some review suggests 6080WA has the similar sound to GEC 6AS7G. I might purchase another pair of GEC 6AS7G next month in UK to compare it with Mullard 6080WA in order to confirm whether they are similar or  not, find a reliable tube supplier, will be more expensive but will save me some energy to worry whether it is authentic or not if buying them from China.
  
 But your 6080 is something else, it has YM and YK after the 6080, what does YM and YK stand for? Is it a Mullard's 6080? 
  
 Again, Elise thread is the best thread ever I've come across on head-fi. You guys are just so helpful.  Very satisfied.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


>


 

 Indeed you will get to know the sound of each driver and power tubes well and that will allow you to pair them accordingly as you need. Generally the 6AS7G sounds more saturated and lush than 6080 but that's a blanket statement because I've not heard the GEC 6080 and Bendix 6080.
  
 5998 is different from those. There's an energy lift in the FR, particularly in the bass but don't take that as masking the high notes and mids. They are still crystal clear. 7236 is similar but tighter and leaner in tone to the 5998.
  
 Chatham 6520 are similar to Chatham 6AS7G. Now here I have to qualify as some Chatham 6520 have the dimpled plates and they are in fact 5998 equivalent.
  
 Even though Chatham 6520 and the 6AS7G are similar, the 6520 sounded less bright, is more saturated. That's the reason I prefer it. However it's a challenge now to find Chatham 6520, for that matter Chatham 6AS7G. Wish I didn't sell off my 2 pairs of Chatham 6AS7G but I've so many tubes I'm unlikely to use them all. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Lastly it seems that your BONGS and DANGS are a non issue from your explanation.


----------



## UntilThen

@louisxiawei  you're making me laugh but Lukasz indeed is very patient and accommodating. Helpful definitely.
  
 As for my Mullard 6080, I've no idea what YM, YK means. I take it as 'your mileage' 'your kinks'.


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Again, Elise thread is the best thread ever I've come across on head-fi. You guys are just so helpful.  Very satisfied.


 
 It's no surprise as represented here are Regional Sales Managers of Elise for Asia Pacific, United Kingdom, US of A, European Union but we're all pro bono and happy vegemites. Now we need a China representative and that will be a tough nut to crack.


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1  price has dropped for these Visseaux EL33. I reckon you should include the EL33 in your tubes shootout. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It'll be Austrian vs German vs Australian vs French.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/401175817015


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1  price has dropped for these Visseaux EL33. I reckon you should include the EL33 in your tubes shootout.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nah, UT...no way at that price - even if it has dropped (a little!)....(nice looking tubes, though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 SORRY!


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> It's no surprise as represented here are Regional Sales Managers of Elise for Asia Pacific, United Kingdom, US of A, European Union but we're all pro bono and happy vegemites. Now we need a China representative and that will be a tough nut to crack.


 
 I might be a promising candidate. 
  
 I actually have already posted some introduction of how Elise get my attention on the most popular Chinese headphone forum (http://www.erji.net/), equivalent to Head-fi. But not many people pay attention (only get 7 replys). One member mentioned that the Elise might be worse than his Chinese Tube amplifier called Ting Feng 6 just by looking at the inner structure of Elise. Pfff.
  
 The thread I posted: http://www.erji.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1946435&extra=page%3D1
  
 But btw, Ting feng this brand is really popular in China as tube-amp tuned by some famous Chinese engineer. Think you guys might just want to know.
  

  

  

 Although I was born in Shanghai, don't quite like the atmosphere on that Chinese forum, communication in Chinese as my native language with people over there sometimes is more difficult than here in English. Those so called senior members tend to be arrogant and showing off their equipment and throwing lots of waffles and believe me there are lots of toxic debate on that thread, people competing the sound by the price tag quite often and boast the effect a lot. Also some companies hire their horsemen to publish some over-hype review to mislead the customers. Overall, head-fi is more objective and professional.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1  price has dropped for these Visseaux EL33. I reckon you should include the EL33 in your tubes shootout.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again UT...perhaps no Frenchie, but almost forgot the Hungarian Tungsram LOL! - so methinks those are more than enough protagonists in the ring...which one Cassius Clay?...which Mike Tyson?...which good ol' Henry Cooper? etc. etc. !! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Time for supper...BFN...


----------



## UntilThen

Ting Feng 6 never heard of it. I prefer the looks of bigger tubes but having not heard that I wouldn't pass judgement on it. I know they have the capability and capacity to make good tube amps if they want to. Nice styling though but I bet it's quite expensive.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Ting Feng 6 never heard of it. I prefer the looks of bigger tubes but having not heard that I wouldn't pass judgement on it. I know they have the capability and capacity to make good tube amps if they want to. Nice styling though but I bet it's quite expensive.


 
 A bit expensive than Elise. Cost around £750.
  
 Another famous China-made tube amp under £1000 is called Jingbo (金波) GA5. Guess these two are the main competitors and why no one pay attention to the Elise I just posted. 

  

  
 I should stop posting these irrelevant pictures, I have my Elise LOL, can't ask more. I also like big tube look


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1  price has dropped for these Visseaux EL33. I reckon you should include the EL33 in your tubes shootout.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I assume I would need adapter for these, power or driver  Also if tubes are NOS how come pin in front next to keyway, is bent? At that price you would thing he would have noticed and straightened it


----------



## UntilThen

It's good to know the competitions over there. I've never heard these 2 brands before. Only familiar with Darkvoice or La Figaro and Little Dot.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I wonder what tubes are used in those tube amps.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I assume I would need adapter for these, power or driver  Also if tubes are NOS how come pin in front next to keyway, is bent? At that price you would thing he would have noticed and straightened it


 
 You have a sharp eye CF. 
  
 Definitely need adapters. These are pentodes with different pin connections. They would have to be wired to 6SN7 as strapped triodes in Elise, similar to EL3N. 
  
 So we will await @hypnos1 as he barricade himself in his chemistry lab while we provide him with all encouragements.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> It's good to know the competitions over there. I've never heard these 2 brands before. Only familiar with Darkvoice or La Figaro and Little Dot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Just for you UntilThen
  
 For GA5 :
  
 Two tubes of 5814A or ECC82, Four tubes of 6P14P or EL84.

  

  

  
  
 For Ting Feng 6:
 Four tubes of EF80 while 2 tubes of 6AS7G, 6080 and equivalents.


----------



## connieflyer

News Flash, just saw on television reports of two Joey's fighting over loud music in desert, Apparently, stolen LP's from mail delivery resulted in loud music, tone arm ripped from the plinth, What in the world is gong on down under???


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Just for you UntilThen
> 
> For GA5 :
> 
> ...


 
 Ah ha... those are respectable tubes.


----------



## Oskari

louisxiawei said:


> But your 6080 is something else, it has YM and YK after the 6080, what does YM and YK stand for? Is it a Mullard's 6080?







untilthen said:


> As for my Mullard 6080, I've no idea what YM, YK means. I take it as 'your mileage' 'your kinks'.




Answers to be found here: http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


----------



## mordy

Hi H1,
  
 You forgot Ingmar Johanson among the boxers. Quick: which Swedish manufacturer made vacuum tubes?
  
 What is their designation of the 6SN7?  (Hint - it has GEC status among collectors)


----------



## geetarman49

mordy said:


> Hi H1,
> 
> You forgot Ingmar Johanson among the boxers. Quick: which Swedish manufacturer made vacuum tubes?
> 
> What is their designation of the 6SN7?  (Hint - it has GEC status among collectors)


 

 are you referring to the ericsson _33S30B?   & by gec status, you mean like the set of 6 used, untested which sold for $2768 us ~ 2 yrs ago on the 'bay?_
  
 btw, here's a handy chart:   https://frank.pocnet.net/brand.html


----------



## louisxiawei

*Suddenly thinking about Elise maintenance*
  
*Quick and newbie questions :*
  
 Since I had that unexpected bad tubes, I might counter that situation in the future again:
  

Will bad power tube or driver tube cause damage on tube-amp or headphone in Elise’s case?
What if leaving the bad tube on the amp for a while without notice, will it cause a serious problem to the amp with the time goes on? 
Does Elise have any protection like safe fuse preventing the bad tube causing problem to Elise amp itself?
What shall I be careful in the future?
  
 Edit:
  
 I just found some answers from some experts:
 http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-28/31526258-did-i-just-damaged-my-brand-new-tube-amp-need-help


----------



## frederick-rea

Hello there
 Congratulations with your new kid.
 I had that same problem (I think). After several weeks I found that was cd player that transmits that noise, specialy when changing tracks. May be your problem is the same thing. Easy to solve


----------



## mordy

Hi G49,
  
 Excellent! You pass the test with flying colors!
  
 These 6SN7 tubes were made for WWII artillery pieces and made extremely rugged with five support rods and triple micas.
  




  
 These tubes were used in the aiming device of Howitzer cannons.
  




  
 One source states that it was a Telefunken tube made under license, but the same page also says under license from RCA. The actual tube was made by Standard Radio Fabrik (SRF) - Standard Radio Manufacturing.
  
 http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Tubes_amp_Accessoires_Tubes_Odd_Ball/6SN7WGTA_Telefunken_made_in_Sweden_as_33S30B_1556
  
 A sister tube, the 6SL7 or 33S29B, recently sold for $1200 for a pair.
  




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Rarest-Tube-In-Own-Box-33S29B-5691-6SL7GT-ECC35-Standard-Radio-Of-Sweden-/231993440919?hash=item3603e2fa97%3Ag%3AnmAAAOSwZ1BXcacn&nma=true&si=uMziWYluOLpPtJbk0lQoRwjYJ6I%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
  
 Just in case you have a case in your basement - could pay off the mortgage......


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> According to @pctazhp's experience, Mullard 6080 is nothing similar to GEC 6AS7G, thus I go for the Mullard 6080WA since some review suggests 6080WA has the similar sound to GEC 6AS7G. I might purchase another pair of GEC 6AS7G next month in UK to compare it with Mullard 6080WA in order to confirm whether they are similar or  not, find a reliable tube supplier, will be more expensive but will save me some energy to worry whether it is authentic or not if buying them from China.
> 
> But your 6080 is something else, it has YM and YK after the 6080, what does YM and YK stand for? Is it a Mullard's 6080?
> 
> Again, Elise thread is the best thread ever I've come across on head-fi. You guys are just so helpful.  Very satisfied.


 
 I need to clarify. I've never heard the GEC 6AS7Gs. I said the GEC 6080WAs I ordered didn't sound very similar to my Mullard 6080s and were much better in my opinion. I did mention at the time that the seller claimed the GEC 6080WAs were 95% of the GEC 6AS7Gs, but I have no idea if that is true or was just pure hype.
  
 I really love the GEC 6080WAs running with EL3N drivers. It is the best combo I have tried by a significant margin and is all I ever listen to any more - regardless of genre or my mood. Candidly, my eyes pretty much glaze over now with all these new tubes that are popping up. I enjoy reading about them, but I'm really burned out on tube rolling and spending more money on tubes.
  
 Because the RCA 6080s are generally pretty cheap I might give them a try, but honestly the thought of opening up one more box of tubes right now is not very appealing to me. Listening remains very appealing.


----------



## Lord Raven

When your tubes and subs both arrive at the same time


----------



## pctazhp

lord raven said:


> When your tubes and subs both arrive at the same time


 
 Just don't get the two confused ))))


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> When your tubes and subs both arrive at the same time


 
 I thought tubes and subwoofer. So what tubes are they?


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> *Suddenly thinking about Elise maintenance*
> 
> *Quick and newbie questions :*
> 
> ...


 

 It's ok , don't be too paranoid. It's never happened here before. There are safety circuitry build in Elise but nevertheless I won't leave the amp unattended to burn in overnight. 
  
 When swapping tubes, make sure they have cool down considerably before doing so. Also don't operate cold and hot tubes together.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Because the RCA 6080s are generally pretty cheap I might give them a try, but honestly the thought of opening up one more box of tubes right now is not very appealing to me. Listening remains very appealing.


 
 In that case I'll play you a song.


----------



## DecentLevi

Though I don't ascribe to evolution - a little humor


----------



## UntilThen

Good to see you again DL and a little humor is in order.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks, well, you really gave me the impression I've been relinquished from online Elise land. Not even trying to refresh the whole jig, basically I was purely expressing my perception of various tube setups, and didn't mean any affront whatsoever about the EL3Ns. Everyone has their own sound preferences, and disliking something is not meant as an offense.
  
 Well I finished 60 hours on my feet this week, and here's the first of several huge Head-Fi updates I've got up my sleeve:
  

New custom add-on I've come up with for an HD-650 mod for increased punchyness
  
 more *here*
  
*EDIT: Also another main universally accepted decree of this hobby is to not make claims about the sound of something unless you've tried it*


----------



## UntilThen

I won't mod my hd650 further or it will become the Orpheus.


----------



## UntilThen

Make no mistake it's not what you said about EL3N per se but the fact you claimed 6xEL3N has high THD where else your Christmas tree is low THD. That defies logic. If any setup has distortion it will be the Christmas tree setup where adapters are pile upon adapters.


----------



## DecentLevi

Edited my above post


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @louisxiawei  you're making me laugh but Lukasz indeed is very patient and accommodating. Helpful definitely.
> 
> As for my Mullard 6080, I've no idea what YM, YK means. I take it as 'your mileage' 'your kinks'.


 
  
 My Mullards are similarly quiet and I believe made for the Military. Don't know much more about them, made in 1975 according to the box. Can't find much info about QDD code, except it's quite common. Sound great anyway.


----------



## DecentLevi

OK guys this week I've finally decided to give the *tube dampers* a chance. At only $10 a pack I thought why not try - and boy did it ever pay off!!! Here are my impressions of the effect these have on the sound with the Elise amp, after multiple A/B comparisons with various tube classes:
  
The Look

  
  
The Sound Changes
  

*Improved realism*
    What used to sound like a reproduction of a choir or of drums, now sounds like real people singing around me and real drums. 
*Improved imagining / instrument separation*
    Of all, this may be their strength. Impeccable imaging and separation. Absolutely no doubt I now hear layers I've never noticed before. I can even hear individual voices in a choir of 5 which I've never heard before.
*Improved transient response*
    The initial attack 'slam' of the ADSR hits stronger and really sounds pleasing / just right.
*Increased 'air'*
    Improved sense of spaciousness around the high frequencies
  
 It went from an excellent recording to a spectacular recording... not even like a recording anymore but as if it's now 'real life'! Superb realism, approaching an electrostat sound. It's like it transforms tubes from being something that was meant for other purposes but sounded great, to something that was destined to be for audio. 
  
Absolutely surreal!
Everything sounds SO right now!
  
 It sounds just like I've always wanted my hi-fi rig to sound, and I'm now seriously questioning whether I need to upgrade my amp in the future. And folks, this is no "new toy syndrome" either, but a result of a multi-day careful A/B comparison between with / without these bands, using multiple tube setups. I initially tried this on the 6BL7 / dual 6J5 with 6SN7 (Christmas Tree) setup and was left speechless. I also tried the larger size with my GE 6AS7 GA tubes and they went from sounding 'OK' to 'very good'. Then I tried it with my 6080 tubes and 6SN7 (photo above), and it was exactly the improvement I expected...
  
 That is to say, the above four sonic improvements are universal for all tube classes (with my testing). With any tubes you can generally expect improved realism, imaging / separation, dynamics and air.
  
The concept
 Tube dampers work by reducing vibrations from the tube. Apparently tubes are prone to imperfections in sound reproduction due to these vibrations - something I've never noticed until after the improvement from these.
  
A few tips
  

Between comparing with / without the dampers, I recommend to turn off the music and remove the tube. But when applying the dampers with music playing, the sound changes were brought about so gradually I had a harder time detecting the difference. Also you don't want to risk damaging the pins / sockets with the force applied of inserting them.
When applying the dampers, I recommend to hold the tube mostly by the lower part of the glass and roll the bands down, rather than taking a chance at breaking the tube apart by holding it from the base while exerting force on the glass.
Go all or nothing. I recommend using a damper on both driver + power tubes. Using them on only half didn't seem to make much of a difference.
  
@HOWIE13, sorry to say you were either missing something or you got a bad brand, because these are the real deal! These are making such an improvement in my overall music listening experience that I've been finding myself looking forward to listening to the Elise every day! They are from eBay seller Sandyphoto, which offers risk-free returns, and said there have been 0 returns on their dampers after around 10 years of selling them. Also their product description states to be wary of knock-offs, so I recommend trying theirs first. Also don't worry about these melting, because they are tested to withstand up to 400 F.
  
Where to buy
  
 Seller Sandyphoto on eBay
  
This is the one for 6SN7 / 6BL7 size (medium)
This is the one for 6AS7 / 6080 size (large). _though they seem quite tight so I'll also be testing the larger sizes_
This is size XL
  
 They have 18 sizes / types including the pricier DuoDAMP type with two materials, which they said to have an even 10% better improvement on the sound

  
  
 I may never consider any tube complete again without a damper. A must have for every serious tube connoisseur.
  
 I'll also be ordering some for my EL3N's and will report back on which size fits them best.
  
 PS - If you don't see your tube size, ask the seller first which size is best for your tube


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> *EDIT: Also another main universally accepted decree of this hobby is to not make claims about the sound of something unless you've tried it*


 
 If you think anyone here is in a hurry to verify your Christmas Tree claim, you had better get Santa on it.


----------



## Spork67

decentlevi said:


> OK guys this week I've finally decided to give the *tube dampers* a chance. At only $10 a pack I thought why not try - and boy did it ever pay off!!! Here are my impressions of the effect these have on the sound with the Elise amp, after multiple A/B comparisons with various tube classes:
> 
> The Look
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey DL.
 I don't wish to seem argumentative - it was a post of yours that first brought me to Elise, but your post raises some questions for me.
  
 Have you conducted any blind tests? "..._and it was exactly the improvement I expected._.." Expectation bias perhaps?
  
 Also: 
 "_The concept_
_Tube dampers work by reducing vibrations from the tube. __Apparently__ tubes are prone to imperfections in sound reproduction due to these vibrations - something I've never noticed until after the improvement from these._"  but then " _But when applying the dampers with music playing, the sound changes were brought about so gradually I had a harder time detecting the difference_."
  
 So how would the dampers gradually reduce vibration when music is playing but do it instantly and dramatically without music playing?


----------



## Riverstalker

These tube rings look amazing, need a pack of those. Different color though 

Hd 600 arrived today. Sounds wonderful but definately not a neutral can. So many people say it's neutral ?!?
I keep it, music just flows and the soundstage is enough for me.
And they are damn good for electronic music which suprised me a lot. Good bass, the 650 were to blurry there.

Thanks for the help guys !!!


----------



## Riverstalker

First song was chasing pirates from norah jones by the way. Thought Elise or HD 600 were broken. There is a crazy sound in the left channel right at the start of the song LOL
Gave me a good shock but it's in the tune. Give it a try ...


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:
			
		

> According to @pctazhp's experience, Mullard 6080 is nothing similar to GEC 6AS7G, thus I go for the Mullard 6080WA since some review suggests 6080WA has the similar sound to GEC 6AS7G. I might purchase another pair of GEC 6AS7G next month in UK to compare it with Mullard 6080WA in order to confirm whether they are similar or  not, find a reliable tube supplier, will be more expensive but will save me some energy to worry whether it is authentic or not if buying them from China.
> 
> But your 6080 is something else, it has YM and YK after the 6080, what does YM and YK stand for? Is it a Mullard's 6080?
> 
> Again, Elise thread is the best thread ever I've come across on head-fi. You guys are just so helpful.  Very satisfied.


 
  
 Hi lwei...it is indeed @pctazhp's *GEC* 6080 that approaches the GEC 6AS7G variants, not the Mullards lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 As for paying the sort of money generally asked for the "Holy Grail" CV2523 or A1834, I'm afraid I can't really say they warrant such (now) crazy prices. Those Osrams you showed a while back look 100% genuine to me...can't see how anyone would be able to reproduce/imitate them to such an incredible standard LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Good luck whatever you choose to do...and glad you like our company!...CHEERS!...


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
  '_I can even hear individual voices in a choir of 5 which I've never heard before_.'
  
 Hi DL
  
 I never realised you liked choral music. I would love to know which recording this refers to as I would like to obtain it to see if I can make out the individual 5 vocal parts in my own system before considering buying more rings.
  
 Cheers and thanks.


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> First song was chasing pirates from norah jones by the way. Thought Elise or HD 600 were broken. There is a crazy sound in the left channel right at the start of the song LOL
> Gave me a good shock but it's in the tune. Give it a try ...


 

 Love this song. Was playing it a few days ago when I was just going through Norah's songs.


----------



## geetarman49

mordy said:


> Hi G49,
> 
> Excellent! You pass the test with flying colors!
> 
> ...


 






 at those prices, i doubt i'd ever get the chance to touch them, much less listen to them.
 have you ever listened to them? in the elise?
  
 while price is relative, are they really worth (from a sonic perspective) that much more than gec 6as7g?
 i think i will stay in the relatively sane world of chatham 6as7g & save the money for something like the sony mdr-z1r


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> The Sound Changes
> 
> 
> *Improved realism*
> ...


 
 DL:  I read with interest your report on the rings. Tube rings have been around for decades, but for whatever reason don't seem to have gained widespread acceptance, particular among headphone users - at least from what I can tell. Decades ago they were promoted as primarily reducing the microphonic effect of close proximity of tube electronics to loud, powerful speakers.
  
 I envy you achieving the degree of improvement you report from such a simple change. I will admit that I'm sure my 71-year old ears aren't what they used to be, but I don't recall achieving such a dramatic change through something so simple or perhaps even through something much more involved. Although with my EL3N/GEC 6080WA combo I may have come close.
  
 I have often heard people talk about "layers" but I don't think I have ever been able to identify that in my own listening experience. Essentially, I primarily experience differences in tonal balance, good integration from bottom to top of FR, realistic soundstage (depth and width) and improved precision of imagining. I've never been particularly able to hear "attack" although I can relate to "slam". And except during solo passages, I don't remember ever being able to identify single voices in a choir regardless of size.
  
 The concept of "Improved sense of spaciousness around the high frequencies" is totally alien to my experience, although with good imaging and low noise level I believe I can hear better "air" between instruments - a descriptive term that I think was first developed by Harry Pearson in The Absolute Sound.
  
 I'm tempted to try the rings because they are so cheap. But I'm concerned about their effect on the lifespan of tubes possibly from uneven thermal conditions. So I'll await further information.
  
 I don't put much stock in the seller's claim that no rings have ever been returned. Given the low price, I assume someone who didn't find them beneficial wouldn't bother returning them. And his warning to beware of knock offs is a pretty common hype phrase used for many different products.
  
 I did a very quick Google search on tube rings, and didn't find much. However, I did find some positive comments but also found a few comments reporting a mainly negative effect from rings such as "deadening" the sound. 
  
 As for the concept, I'm having trouble imagining how the rings could significantly reduce internal tube vibrations (assuming such a thing exists) but I guess it is possible.
  
 Also, one final question. When you say "electrostatic" are you referring to headphones or speakers? 
  
 Anyway, I'll stay tuned )))


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi G49,
> 
> Excellent! You pass the test with flying colors!
> 
> ...


 
 Are you sure they weren't actually designed specifically for Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture ???


----------



## Riverstalker

Anybody satisfied with a headphone for rock music ? Rock always sounds terrible no matter what HP I try. Maybe it's AKG territory ?


----------



## mordy

Hi G49 and pct,
  
 Chances are very slim that I will ever hear these Swedish tubes. The prices are out of reach and personally I doubt that these tubes are so superior to other great tubes that it justifies the price. They are very rare, and that may account for the price.
  
 A couple of years ago I saw a pair of Western Electric 300B tubes sell for $13,000 plus shipping.
  
 Which reminds me of a true story that the head of dentistry at a hospital told me in the 70's.
  
 A dentist colleague approached him and asked him: A certain well known actor called my office to have a couple of wisdom teeth pulled. What should I charge him?
 Said the head of the department: You have to charge him a very high price; otherwise he is going to think that you aren't a good dentist.
  
 So he was charged $4000/tooth which in those days was an astronomical price.
  
 Afterwards he sent a thank you note to the dentist, thanking him for the extractions, and adding: "Thank you for being so reasonable".
  
 The head dentist added: Where do these people come from? The moon?


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi G49 and pct,
> 
> Chances are very slim that I will ever hear these Swedish tubes. The prices are out of reach and personally I doubt that these tubes are so superior to other great tubes that it justifies the price. They are very rare, and that may account for the price.
> 
> ...


 
 In my next life I'm going to try to come from the moon


----------



## louisxiawei

Hey gents,
  
 Is Elise supposed to be zero background noise?
  
 Now the "dang" sound appears every time but will disappear after 20 minutes. I guess one of the Mullard 6080WA is microphonic tube and got some thermal expand sound when it gets warmed up.
  
 However, I still can hear marginal microphonic "hum" sound at the background without signal in after few hours switch on the Elise. The sound is quite metal-ring feeling, but gets quiter and quiter when the playing time goes. The "hum" noise only comes from my right channel of my headphone. 
  
 The "hum" sound is very very tiny, I need to be calm down enough to be able to hear it, but it does exist. I don't recall any kind of these noise when I used a pair of bad stock 6AS7G tube, although channel is unbalanced, but I didn't hear the noise.
  
 Should I keep running for a few days or contact the seller for replacement? Thanks.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> DL:  I read with interest your report on the rings. Tube rings have been around for decades, but for whatever reason don't seem to have gained widespread acceptance, particular among headphone users - at least from what I can tell. Decades ago they were promoted as primarily reducing the microphonic effect of close proximity of tube electronics to loud, powerful speakers.
> 
> I envy you achieving the degree of improvement you report from such a simple change. I will admit that I'm sure my 71-year old ears aren't what they used to be, but I don't recall achieving such a dramatic change through something so simple or perhaps even through something much more involved. Although with my EL3N/GEC 6080WA combo I may have come close.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi pct.
  
 I can relate to all you say about "tube dampers". My own comments are admittedly not based upon personal trials, but upon certain elements of questioning logic...ie.
  
 1. This has been a hotly debated/controversial topic for many years now...if there were indeed benefits from such a simple, relatively cheap "tweak", surely this would have taken the hi-fi World by storm a long while ago - _*why hasn't it, lol?!*_...
  
 2. Many of those who have noticed improvements admit that this is probably very system dependent...not to mention on the actual condition/quality of the tubes themselves. And, in addition, that the changes are usually _subtle_ ones...not _dramatic _ones (which makes much more sense to me personally, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 These two aspects alone I have not yet seen answered adequately, and so the debate will continue for a VERY long time yet, I should imagine.
  
 Fortunately, this is an exercise that shouldn't have to cost too much and is easy to implement, so all power to those who wish to give it a try - and who knows, may add towards a better concensus of opinion. And even if merely placebo effect, if it brings greater enjoyment, I certainly will not dismiss it out of hand. But please don't expect _too_ dramatic an improvement...that surely is _not_ very realistic LOL!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Hey gents,
> 
> Is Elise supposed to be zero background noise?
> 
> ...


 
 I don't know if it is possible for any amp to be absolute "zero background noise", but I never hear background noise. Right this minute I recently switched my EL3N drivers for Sylvania 6SN7 WGT drivers (still using GEC 6080WAs for power), and I just turned the volume all the way up and couldn't hear anything.
  
 Have you tried switching the Mullards to see if the hum moves to the left side?


----------



## Oskari

riverstalker said:


> First song was chasing pirates from norah jones by the way. Thought Elise or HD 600 were broken. There is a crazy sound in the left channel right at the start of the song LOL
> Gave me a good shock but it's in the tune. Give it a try ...




_The Fall_ is a great album, different but great.


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/2IrWoKOLjQI[/VIDEO]


I don't know what you're talking about regarding crazy sound. :confused_face_2:


----------



## Oskari

louisxiawei said:


> Hey gents,
> 
> Is Elise supposed to be zero background noise?
> 
> ...




It is impossible to know how severe your problem is. All tubes are microphonic to some degree. Have you switched the tubes from one channel to another? What happened?


----------



## Riverstalker

Chasing pirates song, first few seconds left channel. Sounds like disortion or whatsoever ...

Her last albums are indeed different. And very very good !

Somebody knows "The XX" ? Tier 1 band !!!


----------



## mordy

Hi louisxiawei,
  
 Most of the time I do not have any objectionable hum or background noise at normal to very loud listening levels. However, not playing music, and turning up the volume to max I usually hear hum and noise, but if I played music at those levels I would damage my hearing.
  
 So I am perfectly content to listen to music without hearing any untoward hum or noise, however knowing that at max volume I _could_ hear hum and noise. My impression is that some of the Elise owners are in the same situation as me, and some are lucky enough not to have any hum, even at those unlistenable levels. It seems to be dependent on you electrical wiring and ancillary equipment, ground loops, appliances, cell phones, fluorescent lights, and other electrical gremlins.
  
 So in sum, I would not worry about things that either disappear or do not infringe on listening to music. Almost all the people that had objectionable hum and noise were able to solve their problems.
  
  
 You just to find this guy:


----------



## pctazhp

Norah Jones is IRRESISTIBLE, HYPNOTIC, MESMERIZING, ETC!!!!


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> These 6SN7 tubes were made for WWII artillery pieces and made extremely rugged with five support rods and triple micas.




Hej, Mordy! The gunner in me is always happy to see tubes and artillery computers. (I do admit that I was an AA radar operator, but still artillery. Funnily enough, the actual radar was made by Ericsson.) Those tubes and the artillery computer they were made for came slightly after the WW2, about Korean War time frame.



> http://www.veteranklubbenalfa.se/drupal/?q=130310


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Norah Jones is IRRESISTIBLE, HYPNOTIC, MESMERIZING, ETC!!!!


 
 I had just listen to Norah Jones a few days ago. Looks like it's a repeat again now.


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Hey gents,
> 
> Is Elise supposed to be zero background noise?


 
 Yes it is in mine. I wish the same for you.


----------



## louisxiawei

oskari said:


> It is impossible to know how severe your problem is. All tubes are microphonic to some degree. Have you switched the tubes from one channel to another? What happened?


 
 Thanks Oskari and UT.
  
 I've swaped the Mullard 6080WAs, yes, the "hum" noise shifts from the right to the left channel of my headphone. So it is one of the tube's problem for sure. I will run one day more and contact the seller if problem still goes on.
  
 Edit:
  
@UntilThen, pctazhp
  
 I think I find the correct word to describe my problems. I think it's the first one, the "rustling leaves". 
  
 I put my ear beside those tubes, I can clearly hear sound coming from inside of the tubes, both of them. The problematic one is just louder.
  

  
  
  
  
 Regards,
 Wei


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> I think I find the correct word to describe my problems. I think it's the first one, the "rustling leaves".


 
 Get a refund for the tubes. Sounds like a problematic pair. I can't believe you had problems with the stock tubes as well as this pair. 
  
 I'd recommend buying the Mullard 6080 from Langrex. Some of these guys seems to like the RCA 6080. You could probably pick up a cheap good pair easily.
  
 Has FA replacement power tubes arrived yet? That will solve your problem too.
  
 Last resort I'll send you a pair. Let me know. You could have my GE 6AS7GA. They are noise free.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Get a refund for the tubes. Sounds like a problematic pair. I can't believe you had problems with the stock tubes as well as this pair.
> 
> I'd recommend buying the Mullard 6080 from Langrex. Some of these guys seems to like the RCA 6080. You could probably pick up a cheap good pair easily.
> 
> ...


 
 Me too. Lots of bad luck these days.
  

Should I unplug these 6080WA?  I mean, when the music on, they still make the good sound. 
FA replacement power tubes haven't arrived yet. 
Thanks UT, that's very kind of you offering the last resort, I will let you know if I need your help


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Me too. Lots of bad luck these days.
> 
> 
> Should I unplug these 6080WA?  I mean, when the music on, they still make the good sound.
> ...


 

 It does seem that your Mullard's not perfect but shouldn't destroy anything. I have a pair of Fivre 6N7G horn drivers that gives that occasional rustling leaves. I don't use that pair much though. It does sound very good, that Fivre.
  
 I could send the tubes but it will take a long time to get to you from downunder. FA replacement tubes probably would have arrived then.


----------



## UntilThen

These are the GE 6AS7GA. Almost new from Parts Express. Pretty gorgeous looking right? I'm not selling. I'm giving it to you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I hardly use them as I have much better power tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

My pair of EL3N must have burn in to optimum because swapping over to C3G, I hear similar clarity. Amazing. 
  
 Normally pair C3G with 5998 but now with Chatham 6520, it's sounding really good.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello guys, due to your interest I spent the whole afternoon doing extended tests of the result these tube dampers have on the sound of tubes with my Elise system. And in short, the difference was amazingly consistent and positive!
  
 First of all, I should however mention that use of the word "_dramatic_" change was something that was 'lost in translation', and was not my own words. If I had to quantify the difference these make when implemented properly (at least two on each tube), I would say it's closer to a solid 25-30% improvement overall. More than a subtle difference, at least if you're an analytical listener and have a hi-end system.
  
 So I did several more A/B tests on my tubes (6SN7 with 'Bendix' 6080) and this time with a broader variety of music including synth-pop & techno, pop, rock & blues. All genres showed an equal improvement. Without these tube bands, the general sound was somewhat smeared and unfocused, and soft dynamics. And with them the general sound was pristine, eloquent, well defined... in two words it would be puristic / lifelike. Of course this was highly influenced by the sound of my specific tube combo, however as previously mentioned, The improvement was universal on all tubes that these dampers improved the imaging / instrument separation, dynamics and air - leading to an overall more lifelike sound. For the air I noticed this time a bit more detail in the upper frequencies as well.
  
 If I were to nit pick, I would say that the only negative was that the mids seemed perhaps a nuance less lush. But only by the faintest margin, yet still quite lush for my tastes. In its' place, you get improved soundstage / imaging, which by that I mean a soundstage that is more well focused with more coherent layering and instrument separation. Interestingly the effect of these dampers seem to have fantastic synergy with the HD-650 headphones, yet with my (modded) HP-100's, they seemed to sound better with only bands on the power tubes but not drivers. From their overall more detailed / focused effect I would venture to say they would also have a very positive effect on the likes of Hifiman HEK / HEX, and HE-560.
  
 What I meant by the effect of these bands having more of an electrostatic sound was the detail / speed / realism gave a _slight _nudge to the way e-stat headphone systems sound which I have tried before.
  


spork67 said:


> Hey DL.
> I don't wish to seem argumentative - it was a post of yours that first brought me to Elise, but your post raises some questions for me.
> 
> Have you conducted any blind tests? "..._and it was exactly the improvement I expected._.." Expectation bias perhaps?
> ...


 
  
 Though I haven't done any blind tests, I'm very confident "_expectation bias_" didn't play a role. My initial listen I was expecting something different such as wider soundstage, but what I heard was refinement of several other factors. And today's thorough testing has shown an A/B difference that was consistent for each try. If this bias had played a role, I wouldn't have heard specific layers that I've never heard before.
  
 As per changing the dampers without music playing, I think I may have caused confusion on the way I explained it. What I meant was this: Adding the dampers while playing music brought about a change so gradually that perhaps my ears had already adjusted to the new sound by the time I put on all eight bands; whereas turning off the music while adding dampers allows you to possibly hear a more immediate difference when the music comes back on, being that the former sound is the most recent in your brain. And as mentioned above, the overall difference was noticeable on a good system, but not '_dramatic_'.
  


howie13 said:


> @DecentLevi
> 
> '_I can even hear individual voices in a choir of 5 which I've never heard before_.'
> 
> ...


 
  
 This also may have been explained wrong. While I don't exactly listen to _choral _music - I throw into the mix a percent of 'oldies' from the late 60's - 90's, some of it having 'choral' like segments. Actually the song I was referring to was "Stop" by the Spice Girls. I'm not a fan of them or anything, but I think that particular song is very well mastered so I use it as one of my "headphone test tracks". In fact I did another A/B with the choral sections of that song hovering around the 1:00 min. mark, (lossless FLAC upsampled) and that's where I got some of my above comparison, in that the soundstage seemed somewhat smeared / unfocused without the bands, but with them, and with extra analytical listening, yes I actually was able to distinguish at least 4 distinct voices out of those five girls who were singing in perfect unison. Indeed a pleasing sound and a sign of high fidelity! Some other _semi_ choral related artists I like are Earth Wind & Fire, and the Eurythmics.
  


hypnos1 said:


> Hi pct.
> 
> I can relate to all you say about "tube dampers". My own comments are admittedly not based upon personal trials, but upon certain elements of questioning logic...ie.
> 
> ...


 
  
 When I listen for differences in sound, I generally don't question things like logic, cost or appearance. Instead I focus on the sound performance which is what it's all about for me. There are numerous 'grey areas' in the world of audio reproduction, where logic / science / schematics do not always dictate performance. Take the way some people prefer the sound of vinyl even if the master source was digital, how some SE amps sound better than balanced, how some cheaper and even older headphones sound better, and how "feet" underneath amps have been said to improve the sound. Well my friends, this is one of _those _things that are strange but true.
  
 Good points. Sure, tube dampers have been around for decades, and are probably system dependent. But I would attribute the reason they've been so under-appreciated would be possibly due to being used with inferior sound systems or critical listening skills. Of which could also be the reason somebody else mentioned that tube dampers '_deadened_' the sound - albeit totally different dampers on a totally different system. IMO, the sound is not _deadened_ at all with these on any tubes I've tried them with, but very much alive and more refined. But at least in this case, I say these have great synergy with tubes on the Elise.
  
 Finally, these tube dampers are really worth a try, and almost no risk at their price. I look forward to reading from others who share my enthusiasm for these. Enjoy!


----------



## DecentLevi

And now for my last two bits of news I said I have...
  
 Last week I got a matched pair of these lovely GE 6SN7 GTA tubes. Of all the 6SN7 tubes I've tried, these are by far the most linear, dynamic and faultless. All this time I've had just one, but now that I've gotten a matched pair (although one being rebranded), it's now evident to me how amazing these are for dynamics and bass definition, making them especially great for rhythmic and electronic music! Make sure to burn yours in though for around 12 hours. Howie likes these too, and they're cheap

  
 Then just now, I got my brand new Bifrost Miltibit DAC (AKA Bimby)


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I know this isn't the Bifrost thread, but thought I'd share brief initial impressions with my brand new one since I'm using it with the Elise. Several A/B comparisons with my former Gustard X12 DAC reveal the Bimby has more micro-detail and organic / layered bass, and without being colored, has a larger / more expansive soundstage! Yaaay!! Looks like all my focus on multibit / R2R DACs vs. Delta Sigma have been well placed!
  
 Now there's several of us who are in a sort of heaven with Bifrosts on the Elise. How long does burn-in take and what changes come about?


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 Thanks for letting me know the tracks you were referring to. I have a feeling my wife has Spice Girl CD's somewhere. I'll seek that out. Cheers.


----------



## richdytch

I'll be giving tube dampers a miss. I don't think my system is high-end enough, nor my ears critical enough.

Some of the most enjoyable listening I do is on my dreadful car stereo. That's when the music really hits me.


----------



## UntilThen

Well you shouldn't give these rubber bands a miss. It's your key to fitness, even in the car.


----------



## richdytch

@Mordy I have continued with the TS 6SN7GTB/RCA 6080 combination for the last couple of days, and I do actually think it's improved. I liked it before, I like it more now. Maybe my ears have acclimatised a little, or the tubes have woken up a bit after a long period of disuse. But some minor annoyances - harsh edges - have disappeared and the upper treble seems more clear. I still find that it's a combo that needs more 'welly' - its subtleties only seem to really be revealed when listening at what I'd regard as correct volume for acoustic recordings. 
  
 I've tried both my sets of Ken Rad 6SN7 and also el3n a couple of times, but none matches the success of the Tung Sols. My rather analytical/cold system loves a bit of sugar on things. There seems to be something about it which integrates the full frequency range really well - nothing stands out, and there's proper meaty bass to boot. 
  
 So all in all, very impressed with the RCA 6080. After having it running all day yesterday, I tried Chatham 6AS7G/EL3N and that sounded harsh and vapid in comparison.


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Well you shouldn't give these rubber bands a miss. It's your key to fitness, even in the car.


 
  
 So it seems rubber bands are the way forward full stop. Who woulda thunk it?


----------



## Riverstalker

Some Information:
  
 I got a hum this morning. After the 12 o´clock volume position you can hear it.
 It is the Macbook while charging, ZERO hum when I pull out the power cable.
 In charging mode when I change volume on the macbook every klick / volume change makes a weird sound too.
  
 Any Idea how to avoid this kind of interference ? Maybe there is an easy solution. 
  
 Setup is: Itunes - Macbook Pro - Elise - Pioneer VSX S-300 - Heco Speakers
  
 No big problem for me right now, just curious if there is a quick fix.
  
 Thx Max


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> Some Information:
> 
> I got a hum this morning. After the 12 o´clock volume position you can hear it.
> It is the Macbook while charging, ZERO hum when I pull out the power cable.
> ...


 

 You are missing a DAC. That should solve your problem and give you better SQ for sure. 
  
 I run a similar setup with iMac or if I go to a meet with a MacBook Pro > NAD d1050 > Elise > headphones or active speakers or through a receiver and then passive speakers.


----------



## Riverstalker

yap UT, just thought about that too. DACs are expensive right ? At least a good one ...
  
 The Resonessence Concero is the one I`d like to try. Again burning money 
  
 Would you suggest going optical from Macbook to the DAC ? Makes sense eye ?
  
  
 My Setup is a shame I know, at least I got an Elise LOL


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> @Mordy I have continued with the TS 6SN7GTB/RCA 6080 combination for the last couple of days, and I do actually think it's improved. I liked it before, I like it more now. Maybe my ears have acclimatised a little, or the tubes have woken up a bit after a long period of disuse. But some minor annoyances - harsh edges - have disappeared and the upper treble seems more clear. I still find that it's a combo that needs more 'welly' - its subtleties only seem to really be revealed when listening at what I'd regard as correct volume for acoustic recordings.
> 
> I've tried both my sets of Ken Rad 6SN7 and also el3n a couple of times, but none matches the success of the Tung Sols. My rather analytical/cold system loves a bit of sugar on things. There seems to be something about it which integrates the full frequency range really well - nothing stands out, and there's proper meaty bass to boot.
> 
> So all in all, very impressed with the RCA 6080. After having it running all day yesterday, I tried Chatham 6AS7G/EL3N and that sounded harsh and vapid in comparison.


 

 Is the TS 6SN7GTB the stock drivers or a different set?


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> yap UT, just thought about that too. DACs are expensive right ? At least a good one ...
> 
> The Resonessence Concero is the one I`d like to try. Again burning money
> 
> ...


 

 Well if you have no DAC at all, even an average one will make a big difference. Don't even need to go optical to DAC. Simple USB will do. Unless you want to squeeze every drop of SQ.


----------



## Riverstalker

Always thought that optical avoids the sound interference from the computer. Read many times that USB connections always tend to be noisy ...
  
 Feel free folks to suggest DACs for a poor german Elise lover, just fire away !
  
 Fireplace does not work properly too HAHA, living room smells quite smokey. There is always something to do, life is great !


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Is the TS 6SN7GTB the stock drivers or a different set?


 
  
 Hi UT, Yup, the new production stock. They've never sounded so good.


----------



## UntilThen

Certainly don't hear any interference from my USB feed to DAC. It passes the signal straight as bit-perfect. One other thing, iTunes is a pretty bad software player. You'll hear a difference when you try Audivarna Plus which is what I use. JR Media Centre 22 is very good too. I have that as well. These shouldn't cost too much and is a worthwhile spent.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Hi UT, Yup, the new production stock. They've never sounded so good.


 

 Ok interesting. Mordy will send me the RCA 6080s when it gets here by hot air ballon and I will be able to try your combo. Looking forward to it.


----------



## richdytch

riverstalker said:


> Always thought that optical avoids the sound interference from the computer. Read many times that USB connections always tend to be noisy ...
> 
> Feel free folks to suggest DACs for a poor german Elise lover, just fire away !
> 
> Fireplace does not work properly too HAHA, living room smells quite smokey. There is always something to do, life is great !


 
  
 Hi Riverstalker, 
  
 Depends on your budget - but the Chord 2qute has been a game changer for me. I upgraded to it from an Arcam rDAC and the difference is quite mad. The Arcam was ok, but I think in its price range, the Chord Mojo would certainly beat it. Chord seem to be the own people at this level who don't use stock chips and program/print/whatever the chips themselves.

 Schiit seem to be phenomenally well regarded - the Bifrost Multibit in particular, but at the top end their Yggrasil (I think) is supposed to be great


----------



## Spork67

riverstalker said:


> Always thought that optical avoids the sound interference from the computer. Read many times that USB connections always tend to be noisy ...
> 
> Feel free folks to suggest DACs for a poor german Elise lover, just fire away !
> 
> Fireplace does not work properly too HAHA, living room smells quite smokey. There is always something to do, life is great !


 
  
 I believe that USB is a better connection than optical, unless you have to cover a long distance.
 Years ago USB had a lot of problems with jitter etc, but that has pretty much been eliminated with more modern equipment.
  
 While you _can _spend thousands on a DAC, you can get a pretty decent one for the price of a decent set of tubes.
 A few guys have the Schiit Bifrost MB and say it works great with Elise - the Modi2 MB is less than 1/2 the price and should be %90 as good.
 There are plenty of good ones for not too much $.


----------



## Riverstalker

Much appreciate your help fellas !
  
 A Chord DAC would be awsome but they are pretty pricey. The Mojo was on my list but it is build for mobile use. That thing may charge all the time while in use or it would always run on battery. And it is a amp too if I remember right. Chord 2cute is pretty out of my range.
  
 The Schiit stuff ... I don´t know. For the better DACs one has to pay quite a bit too.
  
 Chord Mojo and Resonessence Concero are worth a try for me.
  
 p.s. Just checked my speakers, have a rustle there too. Not Elise related, it comes from my crappy Pioneer Receiver. It is even there when no music is playing.
  
  
 So DAC and Amp ! Damn ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyone has an Amp with huge VU Meters ? Thats my dream !


----------



## UntilThen

I agree with Rich and Spork on their views of DAC and connections. You don't have to spend a lot to get good sound these days unless money is no object and even then spending more does not necessary produce better results.
  
 I have always felt that FA pick the right tubes as stock for Elise. The Tung Sol 6SN7GTB re-issue and Svetlana 6H13C are low cost but certainly not low SQ.


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> So DAC and Amp ! Damn ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have just the amp with huge VU meters for you. It's 300 watts per channel and will drive anything.


----------



## UntilThen

Why don't you buy FA's William. It's beautiful and more tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

HE560 with Elise and stock tubes. Beautiful sound. Certainly don't need rubber bands.


----------



## Riverstalker

You crack me up ! That thing costs a bit here. It looks phenomenal !
  
 Check out Onkyo 5000-r - maybe I will get it for christmas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Advance Accoustic has some nice VU amps too but they don´t seem to be that good.
 The Yamahas are damn good but they have small VU´s.
  
 p.s. No need for 300 Watts, don´t want to melt something


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> Check out Onkyo 5000-r - maybe I will get it for christmas


 
  
 Ok it's beautiful. I approve.


----------



## Riverstalker

It is Sir ! A little weak but hopefully enough for home use.


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> It is Sir ! A little weak but hopefully enough for home use.


 

 Are you kidding me? It drove these B&W CM10 beautifully and this song is just great.


----------



## UntilThen

You have to get these speakers. They sound great even on Youtube.


----------



## connieflyer

Well, I decided to try dl's tube dampers.  Cheap easy fix I suppose couldn't hurt.  WRONG!  Put two on my tube, and it was very uncomfortable! Also urination was darn' near impossible!  Will stick with default, it was good enough for God.


----------



## AltCtrl

untilthen said:


> HE560 with Elise and stock tubes. Beautiful sound. Certainly don't need rubber bands.


 
 Which headphones do you use or enjoy the most? The HE560 or T1?
  
 I just got my Elise.. amazing and different sound from solid state amps. The power tubes get hotter than what I was expecting. Burning in my Elise and T1's now..


----------



## UntilThen

altctrl said:


> Which headphones do you use or enjoy the most? The HE560 or T1?
> 
> I just got my Elise.. amazing and different sound from solid state amps. The power tubes get hotter than what I was expecting. Burning in my Elise and T1's now..


 

 That's a tough one for me because sonically they both sound great but T1 has the edge for me. You will not be disappointed with T1 and Elise... wait you'll be ecstatic. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Congrats. You finally received Elise and I'm looking for first impressions but this is good enough for me... '*amazing and different sound from solid state amps*'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Power tubes hot are quite normal. That's only 6.2A total of the 4 tubes. 6080 will feel a lot hotter.


----------



## lukeap69

riverstalker said:


> yap UT, just thought about that too. DACs are expensive right ? At least a good one ...
> 
> The Resonessence Concero is the one I`d like to try. Again burning money
> 
> ...




Check Audio-gd DAC-19, I have seen some on FS forum.


----------



## pctazhp

riverstalker said:


> Much appreciate your help fellas !
> 
> A Chord DAC would be awsome but they are pretty pricey. The Mojo was on my list but it is build for mobile use. That thing may charge all the time while in use or it would always run on battery. And it is a amp too if I remember right. Chord 2cute is pretty out of my range.
> 
> ...


 
 Seems like you already have your heart set on other DACs, but I just want to say I love my Bifrost MB with Elise. I feel no need to try to improve my system with a different DAC.
  
 I think if you read the Schiit threads carefully you may find that most people don't claim to have experienced a significant improvement from bottom to top of the Schiit MB DAC line. The Mimby at $250 has received a lot of praise. And the Bimby at $600 is below the cost of the other DACs you are considering. Above the Bimby, all of the Schiit MB DACs are balanced, which really seems to me unnecessary, at least if you are running the DAC with a single ended amp like the Elise.
  
 I agree that for a more expensive Schiit MB DAC you will have to pay more. I don't necessarily agree that for "better DACs" in the Schiit line you have to pay more than the cost of a Mimby or Bimby.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> @Mordy I have continued with the TS 6SN7GTB/RCA 6080 combination for the last couple of days, and I do actually think it's improved. I liked it before, I like it more now. Maybe my ears have acclimatised a little, or the tubes have woken up a bit after a long period of disuse. But some minor annoyances - harsh edges - have disappeared and the upper treble seems more clear. I still find that it's a combo that needs more 'welly' - its subtleties only seem to really be revealed when listening at what I'd regard as correct volume for acoustic recordings.
> 
> I've tried both my sets of Ken Rad 6SN7 and also el3n a couple of times, but none matches the success of the Tung Sols. My rather analytical/cold system loves a bit of sugar on things. There seems to be something about it which integrates the full frequency range really well - nothing stands out, and there's proper meaty bass to boot.
> 
> So all in all, very impressed with the RCA 6080. After having it running all day yesterday, I tried Chatham 6AS7G/EL3N and that sounded harsh and vapid in comparison.


 
 I think you may like Sylvania 6SN7 'Bad Boys' or Sylvania 6SN7WGT's as drivers with your 6080's. They both give warmth and welly-especially those Bad Boys.


----------



## Riverstalker

pctazhp said:


> Seems like you already have your heart set on other DACs, but I just want to say I love my Bifrost MB with Elise. I feel no need to try to improve my system with a different DAC.
> 
> I think if you read the Schiit threads carefully you may find that most people don't claim to have experienced a significant improvement from bottom to top of the Schiit MB DAC line. The Mimby at $250 has received a lot of praise. And the Bimby at $600 is below the cost of the other DACs you are considering. Above the Bimby, all of the Schiit MB DACs are balanced, which really seems to me unnecessary, at least if you are running the DAC with a single ended amp like the Elise.
> 
> I agree that for a more expensive Schiit MB DAC you will have to pay more. I don't necessarily agree that for "better DACs" in the Schiit line you have to pay more than the cost of a Mimby or Bimby.


 
 I am really open for everything as long as it looks beautiful ... and sounds good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   We´ll see ...


----------



## Riverstalker

Once more for my understanding:
  
 The Macbook Pro Audio Jack is very close to the power input (charging cable) and that causes the hum / noise when charging. I know that now !
 If I would go from Macbook to a DAC via USB the Headphone Jack is unused and the signal could be clear and silent ?
  
 What exactly is jittering ? Do you guys mean electric noise or is it some kind of clipping which for me is an unclean digital signal.
 Sorry for the crappy english, I give my best


----------



## oshipao

Hello gents,

Just wanted to check if anyone would be interested in a pristine set of T1 Gen1s (S/N 13XXX)?
I am the second owner, not a mark on these beauties. I used them for about 2h 

They did unfortunately cause me some serious listening fatigue so I am back using my trusty HD 600s.
I really wanted to make these my primary headphones as they did so much right. They breathe like no other I've tried and sound very live like at times.

I think I am done trying headphones as I really like the HD 600s. Will spend the money on music from now on... and maybe a DAC


----------



## connieflyer

Have you put the T1's up for sale yet?  If so what were you asking for them?  I had a pair before the Senn 800 and really liked them.


----------



## oshipao

Hi connieflyer,

No, not yet. I'd thought I would see if anyone of you guys would be interested at first. I am asking what I did pay for them which is $525 plus shipping and PayPal fees if not gifted.


----------



## connieflyer

How old are they now. Price is not bad, but alot would depend on condition and age. Wear and tear, like pads and headband.


----------



## oshipao

connieflyer said:


> How old are they now. Price is not bad, but alot would depend on condition and age. Wear and tear, like pads and headband.




I hear you. Pads are as new, changed shortly before me buying them. No wear and tear on the headband that I can notice. If interested I could take some pictures and send to you?

Edit: They were bought in late 2012 according to the seller.


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> I think you may like Sylvania 6SN7 'Bad Boys' or Sylvania 6SN7WGT's as drivers with your 6080's. They both give warmth and welly-especially those Bad Boys.




Thanks Howie... adding to my long list of drivers to try


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> Hello gents,
> 
> Just wanted to check if anyone would be interested in a pristine set of T1 Gen1s (S/N 13XXX)?
> I am the second owner, not a mark on these beauties. I used them for about 2h
> ...


 

 Oshipao, sorry to hear the T1 didn't suit you because @Lord Raven even with tinnitus, loves it. He has the HD600 as well.
  
 However I've heard quite a few say that the HD600 is all they need. That being the case, you are a happy man. Save the money and buy a DAC.... what? You're dac less? That's impossible.


----------



## UntilThen

riverstalker said:


> Once more for my understanding:
> 
> The Macbook Pro Audio Jack is very close to the power input (charging cable) and that causes the hum / noise when charging. I know that now !
> If I would go from Macbook to a DAC via USB the Headphone Jack is unused and the signal could be clear and silent ?
> ...


 
 You probably already know that the 3.5mm headphone jack is a dual port for both analog or digital optical. I don't think the fact that the headphone jack is close to the power input is the cause for your hum / noise while charging. If you get a DAC that has optical, coaxial and USB input, you could use either optical or USB from your MBP.
  
 I've not tried the optical feed to my DAC but with the USB, I don't have any interference and am happy to use it.
  
 Don't know about jittering. I have never experience it.


----------



## Spork67

connieflyer said:


> Well, I decided to try dl's tube dampers.  Cheap easy fix I suppose couldn't hurt.  WRONG!  Put two on my tube, and it was very uncomfortable! Also urination was darn' near impossible!  Will stick with default, it was good enough for God.


 
 Did you use one of these tools to put the bands on? 
  
  


oshipao said:


> Hello gents,
> 
> Just wanted to check if anyone would be interested in a pristine set of T1 Gen1s (S/N 13XXX)?
> I am the second owner, not a mark on these beauties. I used them for about 2h
> ...


 
 I wish you'd asked a day or so ago. I finalised a deal with someone else on Head-Fi to buy their T1s literally 2 minutes before reading this thread.
 They seem to sell pretty quickly so I'm sure you'll find a buyer for yours.


----------



## UntilThen

Photoshoot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 T1 with Elise and stock tubes. Still sounding great those stock tubes.
  
 What  -   a   -  surprise.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Did you use one of these tools to put the bands on?
> 
> 
> I wish you'd asked a day or so ago. I finalised a deal with someone else on Head-Fi to buy their T1s literally 2 minutes before reading this thread.
> They seem to sell pretty quickly so I'm sure you'll find a buyer for yours.


 
 Ingenious they have a tool to put the bands on. 
  
 You're traveling fast Spork. I wish you every happiness with the T1. You might give up fishing.... and golf.... and eating.


----------



## connieflyer

spork67 said:


> Did you use one of these tools to put the bands on?
> 
> 
> I wish you'd asked a day or so ago. I finalised a deal with someone else on Head-Fi to buy their T1s literally 2 minutes before reading this thread.
> ...


----------



## connieflyer

I have some exciting news to share!!!!  I have made a huge discovery on my amp! I purchased a couple of accessories that have made the world of difference to the sound coming over the headphones!!!!   I had purchased a couple of tube socket extenders, to help preserve the original sockets, so as not to wear them out when rolling tubes in and out!  Well let me tell you, I put them under the two El3N dual adapters, and not only did it solve my overheating problem on account of having six tubes so close together, I am sure, that was going to happen eventually!! But, and this is a big butt, having the two dual adapters in the power position has not only elevated the tubes, giving the amp an entirely new look, like nothing else you have seen before, definitely one of a kind now. It changed the looks so much when I came back after lunch I had to look around to be sure it was the right amp!!  Now you might find this hard to believe, but having the power tubes extended up in the air, has increased the clarity and frequency response to new heights!!!  I was so overcome with pure joy and Ecstasy that I almost forgot to remove the tube dampers!!  If you want to experience this nirvana for yourself, remember to order the extenders only from Mrs. X. as I am positive that she adds some special additives to the wires in the adapter.  Well, now that the dampers are off, I better go finds some pampers so I can relax!  I truly hope you can enjoy this as much as I do and remember, I started this trend!!!


----------



## geetarman49

connieflyer said:


> I have some exciting news to share!!!!  I have made a huge discovery on my amp! I purchased a couple of accessories that have made the world of difference to the sound coming over the headphones!!!!   I had purchased a couple of tube socket extenders, to help preserve the original sockets, so as not to wear them out when rolling tubes in and out!  Well let me tell you, I put them under the two El3N dual adapters, and not only did it solve my overheating problem on account of having six tubes so close together, I am sure, that was going to happen eventually!! But, and this is a big butt, having the two dual adapters in the power position has not only elevated the tubes, giving the amp an entirely new look, like nothing else you have seen before, definitely one of a kind now. It changed the looks so much when I came back after lunch I had to look around to be sure it was the right amp!!  Now you might find this hard to believe, but having the power tubes extended up in the air, has increased the clarity and frequency response to new heights!!!  I was so overcome with pure joy and Ecstasy that I almost forgot to remove the tube dampers!!  If you want to experience this nirvana for yourself, remember to order the extenders only from Mrs. X. as I am positive that she adds some special additives to the wires in the adapter.  Well, now that the dampers are off, I better go finds some pampers so I can relax!  I truly hope you can enjoy this as much as I do and remember, I started this trend!!!


 

 i think you're just punnin' us ... u r just funnin' us, right? 
  
 i hope you are because my order from mrs. x has already shipped.


----------



## DecentLevi

I spent the whole afternoon yesterday carefully assessing the difference tube dampers make on tubes for the Elise for you guys. I found consistent and very refined results on a variety of tubes I tried it on, and concluded these have good synergy with the Elise amp. In return I was mocked and teased by almost everyone on this thread. Of course we don't expect everybody to buy everything that's recommended by peers on this forum, but the way you dismissed this with such disrespect was really surprising - something that has shown great results and is such a low risk and easy remedy in-line with something we are all after: further improving the sound.
  
 So, rubber bands are a worthless invention that have no use for anything? If so, they wouldn't still be around. These tube dampers may be related to rubber bands, but they are in fact *aerospace quality 100% silicone* with a temperature rating of over 400 degrees F. Most cars even have a sort of thick rubber band under the hood as well (though the functional name has slipped me).
  
​  
*These dampers work by absorbing vibrations from the tube - a process I too definitely would never have noticed was needed until after trying them. *In short, what I realised in my testing was that these have a positive effect on the dynamics, imaging / instrument separation and sense of air / upper detail - allowing me to hear layers I've never heard before and giving an overall more pleasing sound that takes the SQ up another level for dynamic 'cans, the likes of HD-650.
  
 Somebody said that I'm the "only one" who agrees about the discoveries I make. So to set the record straight, I will now name _seven_ specific examples of where other Head-Fi'ers have agreed with me on various hi-fi related upgrades:
  
 * GE 6SN7 GTA tubes (Howie)
 * Christmas Tree tube setup (Howie)
 * Bimby DAC with Elise (several people)
 * EL3N + 6BL7's as powers (Mordy)
 * Bendix 6080 tubes as powers
 * Visseaux and Zenith 6J5 tubes (about 10 people on the Ember thread)
 + I am the one who originally introduced both CF and Howie to Elise
  
 Per the above I don't wish to sound boastful, but am just trying to prove the point that my hearing ability / preferences are not _too _far off of the general consensus, so I hope that people can put at least some degree of trust in my impressions.
  
 I may have also mislead somebody in my comments about the need for critical listening and a top-end system in order to hear the difference these make. I meant that only as a guess on why tube dampers may have been overlooked for so many years; that is, that maybe these only play well on certain systems and with people who know what to listen for. But rest assured, these specific type of dampers really do synergize quite well with the Elise and with this amp, I would say the difference it makes can be heard without too critical of a listen. (especially does wonders for rhythmic music and that which was recorded in a big space).
  
 My only reason for posting about these is in hopes that maybe somebody else will confirm their results and to share my joy of this awesome remedy. I'm not claiming it makes a drastic change, but it's certainly more than a subtle improvement. You'll never know until you try it, and maybe some of you also can bask in the glory of this discovery!


----------



## connieflyer

As per this review the Focal Elears are not for me, sticking with the Senn 800...http://www.head-fi.org/products/sennheiser-hd-800-headphones/reviews/16930 Read what he said about the Elear and was close to the concensus of others. Sound stage on 800 is best I have experienced.


----------



## DecentLevi

connieflyer said:


> As per this review the Focal Elears are not for me, sticking with the Senn 800...http://www.head-fi.org/products/sennheiser-hd-800-headphones/reviews/16930 Read what he said about the Elear and was close to the concensus of others. Sound stage on 800 is best I have experienced.


 
 I actually also agree on that! The Elears sounded too artificial to me and nowhere near the level of the Utopia, maybe comparable to the HD-600 but not quite the level of HD-800


----------



## connieflyer

By the way I was researching the Elise and two other amps before getting this amp.  Did not even know of the other folks that came here from the Ember. Big differencein amps glad I got this, instead of either of the other amps I evaluated.


----------



## HOWIE13

oshipao said:


> Hello gents,
> 
> Just wanted to check if anyone would be interested in a pristine set of T1 Gen1s (S/N 13XXX)?
> I am the second owner, not a mark on these beauties. I used them for about 2h
> ...


 
 I wonder, if you are considering a DAC, whether an NOS, R2R type would suit you better than a oversampling type. My friend Ricky had tinnitus and he found using an NOS DAC was much more comfortable for his ears and produced excellent sound through his headphones. They tend to be more expensive though, unfortunately.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Seems like you already have your heart set on other DACs, but I just want to say I love my Bifrost MB with Elise. I feel no need to try to improve my system with a different DAC.
> 
> I think if you read the Schiit threads carefully you may find that most people don't claim to have experienced a significant improvement from bottom to top of the Schiit MB DAC line. The Mimby at $250 has received a lot of praise. And the Bimby at $600 is below the cost of the other DACs you are considering. Above the Bimby, all of the Schiit MB DACs are balanced, which really seems to me unnecessary, at least if you are running the DAC with a single ended amp like the Elise.
> 
> I agree that for a more expensive Schiit MB DAC you will have to pay more. I don't necessarily agree that for "better DACs" in the Schiit line you have to pay more than the cost of a Mimby or Bimby.


 
 Mojo is good for me.


----------



## UntilThen

NAD d1050 is good for me. 
  
 Read this rather glowing review of it. 
 http://headphone.guru/nad-d1050-review/


----------



## richdytch

Here's why I tend not to sell off tubes that don't work well for me. This morning I've tried some 1954 RCA 6SN7GT with bottom getters, from my Little Dot days, which I'd tried with various power tubes on the Elise. and had written off as sounding flat, edgy and thoroughly unrewarding. Turns out they are much more happy with RCA 6080. A nice surprise - very smooth and quite sweet with nicely extended treble. Not quite a game changer but really nice. They were cheap too.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> Ingenious they have a tool to put the bands on.
> 
> You're traveling fast Spork. I wish you every happiness with the T1. You might give up fishing.... and golf.... and eating.


 
  
 CF helped me to fund the T1 purchase - he decided not to sell his 5998's. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I was underwhelmed with the HE-400i so I sold them.
 I also found a buyer for my turntable - I really can't be bothered with vinyl.
  
 That was plenty for some used T1's - and I still have some left over for maybe some more tubes.
  
 I doubt I'll give up fishing. It's my quiet time (I often fish alone from my kayak all day).
 Haven't felt the need to ruin a perfectly good walk with a silly little white ball for years.
 I can eat and music at the same time. 
  
 Hope I like the T1s as much as you guys do.


----------



## UntilThen

He decided not to sell the 5998 did he? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Neither would I.
  
 I've always felt that a good pair of 5998 is worth keeping. It is special in Elise, just as it is special in Bottlehead Crack. It has perhaps the most solid and punchy bass of all the tubes I've tried. Coupled with C3G, it's quite a potent combination.
  
 I've always wanted to do fishing but getting into Head-Fi makes me forget about it. Used to love golf a lot. Tee off with a driver and hitting the sweet spot on a par 5 is an incredible feeling.
  
 Alright back to what matters. You sold off your turntable? Not one of this I hope.
  


 As for T1, it's a headphone for all genre. Some key attributes which I love. Superb details and clarity. Soundstage. Tight, impactful bass. Realistic sound. It just sound right driven by a tube amp such as Elise. I hope it works for you.


----------



## Riverstalker

Fishing matters UT ! Flyfishing at least


----------



## Lord Raven

This is Gold  You don't eat gold hehe 



pctazhp said:


> Just don't get the two confused ))))




These are matched Tung Sol 7236, I had Cetron 7236,I just wanted to try Tung Sol  They have extra 19 inch subwoofer, I heard. 



untilthen said:


> I thought tubes and subwoofer. So what tubes are they?


----------



## Lord Raven

You'll need to let your ears get used to the T1 sound  All of us have T1 headphones here, make sure it's the 20k plus serial number, they are the most sought out, I learnt this when I was fishing mine lol



spork67 said:


> CF helped me to fund the T1 purchase - he decided not to sell his 5998's.
> I was underwhelmed with the HE-400i so I sold them.
> I also found a buyer for my turntable - I really can't be bothered with vinyl.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spork67

lord raven said:


> You'll need to let your ears get used to the T1 sound
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Now you tell me about what SN to get...
 Not sure what the ones I bought are - will find out in a week or so I guess.
  
 I'll give my ears adequate time to adjust. Gave the HE-400i a week without touching any other HPs. I figure that should be enough to know whether they suit my tastes or not - the T1s seem to suit most ppl. paired with Elise, so should be right I hope.


----------



## mordy

Hi richdytch,
  
 I have come to the same conclusion re tubes - don't sell 'em off so fast... Just like you, I have been surprised when tubes that were so so or even meh suddenly sounded great paired with different tubes.
  
 Which leads me to the hundred or more 6AK5/EF95 family of tubes collecting dust. I'll guess that the Mullard and Voskhod tubes will find takers......Anybody interested in GE/Sylvania/Amperex/Raytheon/RCA/Tung Sol etc etc?
  
 I am keeping the Ei 6HM5 tubes.


----------



## mordy

Somebody wondered about what layering means - here is my take on this subject. Feel free to comment....
  
 Ever looked at a parked car that looked black, only to discover that it really is a very dark green or very dark blue car? Some materials look like one color, but when you look carefully you realize that it is a material that is black with a hue of blue, green, red etc etc.
  
_Certain tubes bring out layers in the music that you did not hear or realize were there before_. This is not the same as hearing a voice, a cough, a bus driving by,  in a recording you listened to many times and never noticed before. That has to do with resolution and detail. But hearing a rhythm section much clearer or deeper,  or several instruments in the background that you did not hear before, all this adds another layer to the music and make it much richer.
  
 So many of the Elise owners report that old, familiar recordings sound new again, but I think that this has to do with the resolution and lively presentation of the Elise. Layering is another dimension that adds to this, but this is tube dependent.
  
 Just my 2 cents......


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Now you tell me about what SN to get...
> Not sure what the ones I bought are - will find out in a week or so I guess.
> 
> I'll give my ears adequate time to adjust. Gave the HE-400i a week without touching any other HPs. I figure that should be enough to know whether they suit my tastes or not - the T1s seem to suit most ppl. paired with Elise, so should be right I hope.


 

 I wouldn't worry about the serial number too much. Mine's an earlier serial number and I've heard 3 other T1 G1 with later serial numbers at the meet, including a black colored anniversary model and they don't sound different from each other. That black model did sound better.
  
 If anything, I thought mine sounded a touch clearer because of the Litz 7N ultra pure OCC copper cable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 However I doubt I can tell the difference in a blind test.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Somebody wondered about what layering means - here is my take on this subject. Feel free to comment....
> 
> Ever looked at a parked car that looked black, only to discover that it really is a very dark green or very dark blue car? Some materials look like one color, but when you look carefully you realize that it is a material that is black with a hue of blue, green, red etc etc.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's a very good explanation. When I talk about a combination of tubes, like the 6 pack in Elise, bringing out the colour of a piano, it's that layering of the sound I'm referring to.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Somebody wondered about what layering means - here is my take on this subject. Feel free to comment....
> 
> Ever looked at a parked car that looked black, only to discover that it really is a very dark green or very dark blue car? Some materials look like one color, but when you look carefully you realize that it is a material that is black with a hue of blue, green, red etc etc.
> 
> ...


 
 Mordy. It was I who raised that issue. It's probably just a matter of semantics. When I hear someone talk about "layering" it bring to my mind a mental picture of peeling away layers of an onion, and I feel that they are hearing distinct, identifiable "layers" such as I have never been able to identify or hear. However I can relate to descriptions of "resolution and detail". But, candidly, I have not experienced very often hearing something really "new" in a recording that I have not heard before.
  
 Having said that, I certainly have heard recordings in a new way by use of certain tube combos or such as when I compare my Elise to my Valhalla2. But I usually experience that as better tonal balance, better integration of the FR from bottom to top, better imaging, wider or deeper soundstage or improved dynamics. And assuming my preference is not due to expectation bias, placebo effect or lack of proper volume level matching, I believe each of those qualities could be identified in some way though proper comparison measuring (FR, crosstalk, distortion, etc) and comparison of the two different waveforms produced by whatever I am comparing.
  
 What that all boils down to for me is that when I hear a comparison between two different tube combos, amps, DACs or headphones that results in a preference of one over the other I usually just feel like the one I like better is closer to what I expect a live performance to sound like. It also may mean that with long term listening I don't experience listener fatigue and find it hard to end a listening session. And in the end, that really is just a personal preference.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi richdytch,
> 
> I have come to the same conclusion re tubes - don't sell 'em off so fast... Just like you, I have been surprised when tubes that were so so or even meh suddenly sounded great paired with different tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 I had a load of EF95's. Gave them to a friend who had an el cheapo Chinese amp which used them as drivers.
 One day he brought his amp round to show me and I slotted it into my system.
 It sounded mediocre, then I noticed the power tube was a stock Chinese 6AS7. I swapped in a 5998 and that amp suddenly sounded like a very expensive piece of kit.
 Those EF95's I reckon are underrated, maybe because they are so small.


----------



## UntilThen

This is my layers as in the Layer Cake movie. Nice beat.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> This is my layers as in the Layer Cake movie. Nice beat.


 
 I get no respect!!! I try to provide clear guidance regarding terminology and it just falls on deaf ears - no doubt the result of excessive headphone usage. I cast my pearls before swine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





untilthen said:


> This is my layers as in the Layer Cake movie. Nice beat.




  
 With all the "layers" of bass in that video I too now have deaf ears


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> This is my layers as in the Layer Cake movie. Nice beat. :happy_face1:




Too many layers for me I suppose. 


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlBIa8z_Mts[/VIDEO]


----------



## hypnos1

Yo @mordy and @pctazhp...tricky subject, _layers_





...
  
 Y'know, although it may sound daft, for me this quality materialises less as something purely _auditory_, but more _imaginatory_...ie. when closing my eyes, in my _*mind's*_ eye it's as though either different tones etc. within a single instrument, or a combo of instruments/voices, literally seem to be floating in separate "layers" - but in a way that is much more cohesive than mere 'normal' so-called "better separation/positioning" or "air between instruments" etc. etc., and in no way disjointed or unbalanced...
  
 This presupposes a certain aptitude in 'visualising' images in one's mind, and _might_ possibly go towards accounting for differences between people's experience, depending upon the degree of this particular mind attribute....just a thought LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Why don't you try it some time, folks...and all the better if you have mastered any kind of "relaxation" techniques, such as meditation or self-hypnosis...(by the way, if you are adept at reaching the deeper levels, if you haven't already done so, choose a favourite piece - preferably one with bags of emotion! - and play it once down there...you might be quite surprised...to say the least!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. You might even be treated to the 'layers' experience...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...)....CHEERS!...


----------



## connieflyer

I gave up on self meditation, as whenever I closed my eyes, and got deep in the music, the dog would either bark and startle the bejeepers out of me, or he would take some of whatever snack I had laid out for my self.


----------



## mordy

So tell me hypnos1, can you visualize these layers with stock tubes as well? Or only with your GECs and ECC31/EL3N tubes?


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Too many layers for me I suppose.


 
 You don't like Senna Miller dancing? 

  
 Well try this


----------



## Spork67

I couldn't resist:


----------



## pctazhp

This is layers:
  

  
 This is sound stage:


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I couldn't resist:


 
 You just bought the benchmark. post #6004
  
 Now you have entry to the VIP lounge if you still have coins for drinks.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> You don't like Senna Miller dancing?
> 
> Well try this




I suppose a) has its moments but b) is a classic. :normal_smile :


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You don't like Senna Miller dancing?
> 
> 
> Well try this




  
 Yes, I love Senna - dancing or otherwise.
  
 Too bad you're too young to appreciate the Jayne Mansfield - Steve Allen impersonators 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Oh, and here's the real thing:


----------



## UntilThen

How did we get so far off tangent. Must be too early in the morning. Now let's get back to layers.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Maybe you'll like this:


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Maybe you'll like this:


 
 Now this is good. I can hear all the instruments clearly but what is the pineapple on the drum for? Are they trying make it more fruity?


----------



## geetarman49

decentlevi said:


> I spent the whole afternoon yesterday carefully assessing the difference tube dampers make on tubes for the Elise for you guys. I found consistent and very refined results on a variety of tubes I tried it on, and concluded these have good synergy with the Elise amp. In return I was mocked and teased by almost everyone on this thread. Of course we don't expect everybody to buy everything that's recommended by peers on this forum, but the way you dismissed this with such disrespect was really surprising - something that has shown great results and is such a low risk and easy remedy in-line with something we are all after: further improving the sound.
> 
> So, rubber bands are a worthless invention that have no use for anything? If so, they wouldn't still be around. These tube dampers may be related to rubber bands, but they are in fact *aerospace quality 100% silicone* with a temperature rating of over 400 degrees F. Most cars even have a sort of thick rubber band under the hood as well (though the functional name has slipped me).
> 
> ...


 
  
 less my comment(s) be mistaken - many different types of tube dampers ... whether there is one that supersedes all others, i do not know.   but i happen to have these.
  

  
 (sorry about the crappy photo).
  
 i also have some diy from _nuclear_ industry -- rings created from special hoses for use in reactor settings (12ax7, 6dj8 size).


----------



## geetarman49

lord raven said:


> You'll need to let your ears get used to the T1 sound
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 humph! now u tell me .. mine must be worthless then;  sn 2200+


----------



## geetarman49

a package has arrived from mrs x.


----------



## UntilThen

Looks like you have gone for the Big Kahuna.

Mrs X business is booming she must love us.


----------



## UntilThen

Dual EL3N to 6AS7 
ECC31 to 6SN7
Octal savers

What's the gold ones? C3G to 6SN7?


----------



## geetarman49

yes, right on all counts!
  
 only thing i'm missing are those xtenders that dl was talkin' bout.  but then, my order was placed much earlier.
  
 so much to look forward to in the next couple weeks  --- new tv, new theatre seats, _boat_load of el3ns ... is there a new hp amongst this lot??


----------



## UntilThen

That's a lot of combos to try out at the same time. Take it easy and dont insert all together.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Also noted the pineapple like thing - don't know what it is; maybe something for percussion.


----------



## UntilThen

A pineapple shaker to make pina colada


----------



## UntilThen

I'm tempted to buy a Bottlehead Crack with Speedball for AU$450. You think I should?


----------



## mordy

No


----------



## UntilThen

Phew came home after 4 hours and discovered my amp is still on but not very hot. It has stock drivers and 7236 in it.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> I'm tempted to buy a Bottlehead Crack with Speedball for AU$450. You think I should?


 
 Just curious.....why do you want two OTL amps ?


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> I'm tempted to buy a Bottlehead Crack with Speedball for AU$450. You think I should?


 
 I'd never buy one of them.
 I'd consider buying the kit and building one though.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Just curious.....why do you want two OTL amps ?


 

 Been watching too many dancing videos so need retail therapy but mordy says no, so that's the end of it.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Just curious.....why do you want two OTL amps ?
> ...


 
 Ha ha, I see....impulse buy.
  
 Mordy helped you gather yourself


----------



## UntilThen

Now I'm eyeballing these. Seller from downunder so cheap shipping and atm the bid is still low but I'm sure it will skyrocket at the 11th hour. Why am I chasing these anyway. ECC31 and 7236 in Elise now and sounding .... just beautiful. 
  
 Separate listing and not identical pair.


----------



## whirlwind

^  Great tubes to say the least  ^


----------



## Spork67

Friday evening (for some of us) funny:


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> ^  Great tubes to say the least  ^


----------



## whirlwind

Sorry....just sayin
  
 Well, you already know, as you own some.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> So tell me hypnos1, can you visualize these layers with stock tubes as well? Or only with your GECs and ECC31/EL3N tubes?


 
  
 Hi mordy...to tell the truth, I only really noticed it this way _after_ my AG500 AC Mains regenerator had burned in for a couple of days - with my ECC31/GECs in place, of course...(don't keep going backwards with tubes any more, I'm afraid lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...but will be going _sideways_ soon, with the EL3NG & EL11 experiments!!).
  
 Somehow or other, the regenerator did something to tickle my "right brain" activity, more than my usual analytical/logical "left brain"...explained in more detail below (in reply to pct)...
  


connieflyer said:


> I gave up on self meditation, as whenever I closed my eyes, and got deep in the music, the dog would either bark and startle the bejeepers out of me, or he would take some of whatever snack I had laid out for my self.


 
  
 I hear you cf...until having mastered such techniques _fully_, bejeepers can indeed get VERY startled...to say the least LOL!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...But much worse is surely to be robbed of one's tasty snack!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


pctazhp said:


> This is layers:
> 
> 
> 
> This is sound stage:


 
  
 Aaahh pct, you illustrate beautifully what I personally venture as a possible explanation for different folks' experience of "layers".
  
 Following  on from my reply to mordy - and in very general and (over) simplified terms - one could look at this from the standpoint of either direct/ logical/rational/literal/analytical/scientific "left brain" dominance, or the so-called more "creative/artistic"/intuitive/'feely'/_inference_-based, indirect rationale of the "right brain"...ie. we are all basically *describing* the _*same*_ thing, but we are _*perceiving/interpreting *_it differently. Some will indeed be experiencing the layers in the form of flat, linear, _obvious_ slices of bread...others in a _less_ obvious form - such as Shrek's _onion_ layers, for example!...(only even more nebulous and dimensional than that, lol...).
  
 We all possess both these aspects of brain functioning of course, but some are more "left" dominant, others more "right", which could very well help explain said differences in final experience...of most things in life, not just re. "layers" in music! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Now I'm eyeballing these. Seller from downunder so cheap shipping and atm the bid is still low but I'm sure it will skyrocket at the 11th hour. Why am I chasing these anyway. ECC31 and 7236 in Elise now and sounding .... just beautiful.
> 
> Separate listing and not identical pair.


 
  
 If the price is right, and they both test similar(?)...and good?...GO FOR IT!...no need for adapters, so I'm sure they would have an edge over the ECC31s straight away - and, of course, be a good investment anyway LOL!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but as you say, will be a miracle if the prices don't rocket alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...GOOD LUCK!


----------



## UntilThen

Ok now all of you must forget these tubes existed. Erase it from your minds. I'll do a last minute raid.


----------



## Spork67

Almost had a spare - sniped $101. Another $4 might have won it.


----------



## UntilThen

So it was you. Good thing I let it go at $85. 
  
 You don't need a spare. These tubes last forever.


----------



## Spork67

haha.
 It sat on $85 - 6 for ages and took off in the last 20 seconds.
 I didn't really think I needed a spare - but it looked in better outward condition than one of the ones I bought.
 besides, @ $100 I figured I wouldn't lose $ on it.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 If you need retail therapy, why not go for affordable items and multiply your experience without breaking the bank?
  
 Suggestions:
  
 Venture Electronics Monk + earbuds, described as so good that it is scary,,,,by our own pct. (around $8 shipped) {They really sound very good}.
  
 Sennheiser HD 201 headphones were recommended to me by JV (around $13-23 + shipping). Supposedly need some 200 hours to break in. I have passed the 120 hour mark so far, but they sound sweet and totally non-fatiguing. Also very lightweight and comfortable. We'll see.... after 200 hours.
  
 And then DL's silicon rings for around $14 shipped.
  
 These things should keep you occupied for weeks, first waiting for the items to arrive, and then breaking them in, and analyzing (skeptically) the advantage of double orange halos on the tubes.
  
 If this doesn't cure your urge, then try this:
  







 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIMITED-LUXMAN-VACUUM-TUBE-STEREO-POWER-AMPLIFIER-MQ-88uL-JP-MODEL-/121698684636?hash=item1c55ce8edc:g:YLoAAOSw9N1VnMp5
  
 $7499 w free shipping


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> If you need retail therapy, why not go for affordable items and multiply your experience without breaking the bank?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Gotta love them Monks ))) "Scary" is definitely the word for how good they are.


----------



## mordy

How do they stack up against full sized cans?


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> How do they stack up against full sized cans?


 
 Honestly, powered by Elise they don't stack up very well - although they aren't at all bad for $8.. I haven't tried them on my Valhalla 2 which might be better suited as they are pretty low impedance.
  
 Straight out of my Samsung S7 they really shine.


----------



## pctazhp

Here is an article I found interesting in explaining what it means to run headphones in balanced mode. While it doesn't provide any specific data (THD, slew rate, crosstalk) to support its claims for the superiority of balanced operation, it does provide the theoretical argument in favor of balanced.
  
 https://www.headphone.com/pages/balanced-headphones-guide


----------



## UntilThen

Can't say how any of those headphones will tickle my fancy when I'm already listening with T1, HE560 and HD650.
  
 However my NAD d1050 DAC/amp has balanced out. Even though it sounds reasonable on it's own, it's not what I can get out of Elise as amp. 
  
 So retail therapy it is not. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I rather be chasing pirates. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Really good musical tones coming from ECC31 and Chatham 6520 with T1 now on my Fourplay album.


----------



## UntilThen

This post post #7872 does show that others are getting this crackle with the Crack too and it's nothing to do with the amp but possibly the tube or outside interference. See answer 2 posts down.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> That's a lot of combos to try out at the same time. Take it easy and dont insert all together.


 

 adapters & tubes first.  theatre seats haven't been ordered yet.  tv coming first wk of oct.
  
 new hp coming ???   no decision has been made ... is it going to be the sony, the new (non)akg k1000 replacement, a new stax or something else?  well, the new sony is a balanced design and so is the stax so that negates their use in elise, leaving ...


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> adapters & tubes first.  theatre seats haven't been ordered yet.  tv coming first wk of oct.
> 
> new hp coming ???   no decision has been made ... is it going to be the sony, the new (non)akg k1000 replacement, a new stax or something else?  well, the new sony is a balanced design and so is the stax so that negates their use in elise, leaving ...


 

 How are you finding the T1 with Elise? Just wondering as you're maybe remotely contemplating another headphone after acquiring the T1 so soon. Or maybe you just want to sample more... which is a good reason in head-fi.


----------



## AltCtrl

untilthen said:


> How are you finding the T1 with Elise? Just wondering as you're maybe remotely contemplating another headphone after acquiring the T1 so soon. Or maybe you just want to sample more... which is a good reason in head-fi.


 
 I've been burning in the T1.1 and Elise for a few days and I'm very happy with what I'm hearing so far with stock tubes, still waiting on my other tubes. Of course I'm still interested in listen to a HE560 with it as well. I own the Hifiman RE-600 iem and I love the sound signature and crisp bass.
  
 How you would rate your amount of time spent with your 3 headphones? T1 > HE560 > HD650?


----------



## UntilThen

altctrl said:


> I've been burning in the T1.1 and Elise for a few days and I'm very happy with what I'm hearing so far with stock tubes, still waiting on my other tubes. Of course I'm still interested in listen to a HE560 with it as well. I own the Hifiman RE-600 iem and I love the sound signature and crisp bass.
> 
> How you would rate your amount of time spent with your 3 headphones? T1 > HE560 > HD650?


 

 Glad to hear your feedback on T1 with Elise. You could stop there and be totally satisfied - that's how I feel.
  
 I use the T1 more than the other 2 but I changed occasionally because variety is the spice of life.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> How are you finding the T1 with Elise? Just wondering as you're maybe remotely contemplating another headphone after acquiring the T1 so soon. Or maybe you just want to sample more... which is a good reason in head-fi.


 

 i haven't listened as much as i should but i am reasonably satisfied with its performance ... rather, i'm more than satisfied with performance of elise - the issues i had wrt front  panel i have resolved.*   the t1 i consider to be okay wrt hype (maybe, as lr says, my sn is too low; gotta be > 20k or something).  
  
 otoh, monk+ leaves me rather underwhelmed atm considering all the fuss here.   sure, it's only ~ $12 ($cdn) but i wouldn't even say it matches to the musicality of my portapro (the monk may be more balanced and even from the upper-bass thru lower hi, but it certainly doesn't sound more musical --- this is via the hp out on my pc).  maybe it needs more time?
  
 as to why another phone?  well, a new acura or audi is really beyond my budget & a waste of $$$ but a true totl phone i think i can manage.  i don't consider any of the phones i have to be totl any more including the t1 (if it ever were).  but i'm curious what a current or new totl phone would bring to the equation.  i've never heard an r10 or sa5000 & that's why the new sony has my interest.  the non-akg replacement for k1000 also has my interest for obvious reasons.  & i'm keeping my eyes and ears on the alert for anything else that might be extraordinary.
  
  
 *  for those familiar with my issues with front panel uneven appearance, here's how i finally put the ghost to rest.  firstly, using dry microfiber cloth did nothing.  using microfiber cloth with distilled water did improve things a tad after a half-doz hard tries, but barely.  finally, i added about 0.05 ml of dishwashing detergent to 30ml of distilled water and used microfiber cloth, directionally rubbing with firmness.  next day, everything looked like new from factory.


----------



## mordy

Hi g49,
  
 Happy to hear that you were able to solve the issue with the streaks on your finish of the Elise. All that effort was worth it so that you did not have to send it back.....
  
 My own feeling is that the Elise improves over a considerable time, and tubes that did not sound so great in the beginning will sound better when you try them again after a long time. You've heard it before: Everything sounds good with Elise (or was it Everything goes better with Coke?)
  
 Even the non-Coke bottle tubes sound great lol.......


----------



## geetarman49

mordy said:


> Hi g49,
> 
> Happy to hear that you were able to solve the issue with the streaks on your finish of the Elise. All that effort was worth it so that you did not have to send it back.....
> 
> ...


 

 not only that ... had another listen to monks w dm black celebration .. seems to be improving from last nite but dang ... that fit, must be a ramsay bolton creation.


----------



## Lord Raven

Isn't layering in music, the perception of depth and instrument separation? To me, headphones really don't sound like a real HiFi does, sound comes within my head. Still trying to achieve that 3D sound in head-fi.


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Still trying to achieve that 3D sound in head-fi.


 
 You need this.


----------



## UntilThen

I have Closer on an audiophile CD album. http://www.easca.eu/web/CD/SQL_CD_English.htm
  
 Sounds really good.


----------



## UntilThen

If you need budget tubes.
  
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/6080.html


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> *Isn't layering in music, the perception of depth and instrument separation*? To me, headphones really don't sound like a real HiFi does, sound comes within my head. Still trying to achieve that 3D sound in head-fi.


 
  
 Indeed, LR...it's just that some folks will _*perceive*_ it differently to others - with an extra, hard to define element, that some may well never really be able to relate to, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...such is diversity!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

lord raven said:


> Isn't layering in music, the perception of depth and instrument separation? To me, headphones really don't sound like a real HiFi does, sound comes within my head. Still trying to achieve that 3D sound in head-fi.


 
 I know I'm sounding like an old school marm about this, but Dictionary.com defines "layering" as:
  
*noun*
*1.* *a thickness of some material laid on or spread over a surface:* *a layer of soot on the window sill; two layers of paint.*



*2.* *bed; stratum:* *alternating layers of basalt and sandstone.*



*3.* *a person or thing that lays:* *a carpet layer.*



*4.* *a hen kept for egg production.*


*5.* *one of several items of clothing worn one on top of the other.*


*6.* *Horticulture.* 
*a shoot or twig that is induced to root while still attached to theliving stock, as by bending and covering with soil.*
*a plant so propagated.*
 


*7.* *Ropemaking. a machine for laying rope or cable.*


*verb (used with object)*
*8.* *to make a layer of.*


*9.* *to form or arrange in layers.*


*10.* *to arrange or wear (clothing) in layers:* *You can layer this vest over a blouse or sweater.*



*11.* *Horticulture. to propagate by layering.*


*verb (used without object)*
*12.* *to separate into or form layers.*


*13.* *(of a garment) to permit of wearing in layers; be used in layering:* _*Frilly blouses don't layer **well*._



 I don't know of any established definition as it relates to music. Therefore it can mean different things to different people when discussing music. Why not just use terms like "depth" and "instrument separation"???


----------



## UntilThen

This is layers. Make sure your plane doesn't fly beyond Troposphere.


----------



## UntilThen

Now a story for you.
  
 A carpet layer had just finished installing carpet for a lady. He stepped out for a smoke, only to realize that he had lost his cigarettes. In the middle the room, under the carpet, was a bump. "No sense pulling up the entire floor for one pack smokes," he said to himself. He proceeded to take his hammer and flatten the hump. As he was cleaning up, the lady came in. "Here," she said, handing him his pack of cigarettes. "I found them in the hallway." "Now," she said, "if only I could find my sweet little hamster." 

 Think about the hamster next time you talk about layers.


----------



## UntilThen

Now I'll tell you a Hamster joke. This is the last otherwise they will throw me out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
_A guy walks into a bar and asks the bartender if he'll give him a free beer for an amazing trick. _
_The bartender agrees. The guy pulls out a hamster that begins dancing and singing.

"That is amazing!" says the bartender and gives him a beer.

"If I show you something else, will you give me another beer?" The bartender agrees.

The guy pulls out a small piano and a frog. The same hamster plays the piano while the frog dances and sings.

The bartender, completely wowed, gives him another beer.

A man in a suit, who's been watching the entire time, offers to buy the frog for a large sum, and the man agrees.

"Are you nuts?" asks the bartender. "You could've made a fortune off that frog."_

_"Can you keep a secret?" asks the man. "The hamster's a ventriloquist."_


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Now I'll tell you a Hamster joke. This is the last otherwise they will throw me out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Good. It's about time we got back to the main point of this thread which is ______??? Oh, remind me of what that point is????? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh yeah. Layer cakes then and now


----------



## connieflyer

Oh yes layering...


----------



## Spork67

pctazhp said:


> Good. It's about time we got back to the main point of this thread which is ______??? Oh, remind me of what that point is?????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It was layers of hampsters - wasn't it?


----------



## connieflyer

I believe it was like this


----------



## Spork67

Won some new driver tubes too.


----------



## Lord Raven

spork67 said:


> Won some new driver tubes too.


 
 Awesome, I was eyeing on them. I just noticed that you're from Australia  Must be a long wait time. I got a single Mazda 6N7G (Cause I broke the other one) and still looking for its mate.


----------



## Lord Raven

The pun on layers is strong here  LOL Keep it coming, guys.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Won some new driver tubes too.


 
 Omg I told some hamster joke and you won a pair of Visseaux 6N7G for $29. That is some deal.


----------



## AltCtrl

So I can hear slight buzzing with the Elise with the volume knob at 12 o'clock and up. Is this something that comes and goes with tube amps? And can I get rid of it with changing tubes? I can't really hear it while listening to music but I can with no music on and I wasn't hearing it before when I first got the Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

altctrl said:


> So I can hear slight buzzing with the Elise with the volume knob at 12 o'clock and up. Is this something that comes and goes with tube amps? And can I get rid of it with changing tubes? I can't really hear it while listening to music but I can with no music on and I wasn't hearing it before when I first got the Elise.


 

 Is it buzzing or some static sound? I wasn't aware of this until recently on my Elise but this is how it's solved.
  
 First the symptoms. With no music playing and Elise switch on, I turn up the volume gradually and I hear static rustling sound from 1 o'clock onwards. As if by intuition, I shifted Elise front and position ever so slightly. I did this with the volume still up and no music playing until the sound goes away and it does. Why that's a problem and how that would solve it, I don't know. I can only conclude it's picking up some interference from other devices or the cables are touching. 
  
 Try that and see if that solves your problem.


----------



## UntilThen

Nirvana Nevermind turns 25. Now hear Jack talks about them. Remember it's the crowd. Takes 2 to tango.


----------



## UntilThen

This guy thinks Audirvana Plus 2.5 with Tidal sounds great. Here's what he says. 
  
_If you haven't tried it, you haven't lived.
Lifts veils, liquid sound-stage, punches above its price-point. Gets the most out of my $35K USB cable.
Extremely impressive implementation._
  
What do I think? Yes it's better than Tidal Hi-Fi as Audirvana Plus up samples it. Shimmeringly crystal clear.


----------



## DecentLevi

A seasoned industry insider / hobbyist told me the Bimby DAC is slightly darker tonality, as well as the Elise and HD 650 (he's tried my Elise also). I'm sure he's mistaken on the Elise amp, but I'll tell ya my ears yearning for more detail / linearity. I like the Bimby enough to keep it though for it's realism, but it seems as if this pairing is dark enough to oust the HD 650 for now, which is also darker than neutral, even with my mod. EL3N's also aren't clearing things up in this chain either, unless for bright recordings. Though I was absolutely floored with the HD 600 pairing with the Elise - one with extensive burn-in, and had snappiness and clarity to write home about.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> A seasoned industry insider / hobbyist told me the Bimby DAC is slightly darker tonality, as well as the Elise and HD 650 (he's tried my Elise also). I'm sure he's mistaken on the Elise amp, but I'll tell ya my ears yearning for more detail / linearity. I like the Bimby enough to keep it though for it's realism, but it seems as if this pairing is dark enough to oust the HD 650 for now, which is also darker than neutral, even with my mod. EL3N's also aren't clearing things up in this chain either, unless for bright recordings. I was super impressed with the HD 600 pairing with the Elise - one with extensive burn-in, and had snappiness and clarity to write home about.




I have been in your situation before. My response was to modify the HD650, assuming you haven't already. The HD600 is fantastic in its own right, however. If I were you, I would save for Gumby and consider the funds from selling the Bimby in your budget for that amazing DAC.


----------



## DecentLevi

liu junyuan said:


> I have been in your situation before. My response was to modify the HD650, assuming you haven't already. The HD600 is fantastic in its own right, however. If I were you, I would save for Gumby and consider the funds from selling the Bimby in your budget for that amazing DAC.


 
 Thanks ms. Junyuan! Yeah I used to want the Gungnir. My Bimby not only seems dark-ish, but also a smidget too euphonic / colored which further hampers its' pairing with the Elise (making it double colored), necessitating 'colder' / brighter sounding tubes, which may prove a struggle. I bought this DAC new and still have a few days in the 14 day return period. Would you really say the Gumby is more neutral / un-colored and worth the upgrade?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> Thanks ms. Junyuan! Yeah I used to want the Gungnir. My Bimby not only seems dark-ish, but also a smidget too euphonic / colored which further hampers its' pairing with the Elise (making it double colored), necessitating 'colder' / brighter sounding tubes, which may prove a struggle. I bought this DAC new and still have a few days in the 14 day return period. Would you really say the Gumby is more neutral / un-colored and worth the upgrade?




This is OT but I would say from everything I have read about the Bimby, it is too soft and euphonic for my tastes. Gumby is musical, engaging, and highly resolving--close to Yggy. I owned it for almost a year. From what I can tell, the Modi Multibit and Gumby are the price/performance sweet spots of Schiit's multibit offerings and that MM is closer in tonality to the Gumby. Bimby needs an update.

If you are dissapoined in the Bimby (and you are not alone), I would suggest you return it rather than try to make up for its excessive softness, buy the Modi Multibit, and save for the Gumby.

Sorry for the OT but perhaps some readers might find it useful.

Synergy between amp/DAC is not unimportant.


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm confused by all the acronyms applied to Schiit products but I'm about to audition a DAC called 'Mimby', which I _think_ is the same as Modi2 Multibit.
 I want to compare it with the Mojo.
  
 I'll try the NAD-D1050 as well


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I'm confused by all the acronyms applied to Schiit products but I'm about to audition a *DAC called 'Mimby', which I think is the same as Modi2 Multibit.*
> I want to compare it with the Mojo.
> 
> I'll try the NAD-D1050 as well


 
 The Mimby is the Modi2 Multibit, but the version choice on the Schiit site is Modi Multibit for $249. Hope that helps.


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> A seasoned industry insider / hobbyist told me the Bimby DAC is slightly darker tonality, as well as the Elise and HD 650 (he's tried my Elise also). I'm sure he's mistaken on the Elise amp, but I'll tell ya my ears yearning for more detail / linearity. I like the Bimby enough to keep it though for it's realism, but it seems as if this pairing is dark enough to oust the HD 650 for now, which is also darker than neutral, even with my mod. EL3N's also aren't clearing things up in this chain either, unless for bright recordings. Though I was absolutely floored with the HD 600 pairing with the Elise - one with extensive burn-in, and had snappiness and clarity to write home about.


 
 DL:  I really like the Bimby with my particular combo of tubes and headphone. I think the Bimby may be a good match in particular with my HD800S, but maybe not necessarily with other headphones. If it were me, I wouldn't want to settled on a DAC before I felt I had chosen the headphones I was going to be using for a long time to come.
  
 Really, you can find opinions all over the map as to how much difference there is from bottom to top of the Schiit MB line as well as how that line compares to other DACs. Given the variety of preferences, systems used, biases, conditions under which comparisons have been made and all that, it is not surprising it is difficult to identify a consensus.
  
 I'm a strong believer in using opinions of others as merely an aid to help me decide what to audition, but making my final choice after an at-home audition sufficient to determine if what I'm trying out is something I'm comfortable spending my money on (minimal risk of experiencing buyer's remorse) and live with (enjoy) for the foreseeable future. I would always trust my own preference, experience and perception over the opinion of anyone else no matter how "seasoned" or "inside" they are. Good luck))


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> The Mimby is the Modi2 Multibit, but the version choice on the Schiit site is Modi Multibit for $249. Hope that helps.


 
 Cheers, and thanks for confirming I understood what I am buying.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I'll probably buy from the UK Schiit dealer. Allowing for tax and postal surcharges from Schiit USA it will be similar to $249.
 Looks like a good price if it sounds good..


----------



## HOWIE13

OMG- What have I just done. As well as purchasing the Mimby I've just pulled the trigger on an NAD-D1050.
  
 This is the problem with going on holiday to Spain, basking in the sun, relaxing with lots of cheap, tasty vino.
  
 I've lost all touch with reality, and I LOVE it.


----------



## pctazhp

Yesterday I drove to the mountains (Prescott) to visit a friend I have known since 4th grade. He has been obsessed with cars his entire life. We don't see each other very often anymore but every time I see him he has 1 or 2 new cars and is already talking about the next car he is thinking about buying. He is bright, articulate and level headed (in all aspects of his life other than cars). His explanations of why he bought the new car and why he is thinking about something new always seem rational on their fact, but it seems pretty obvious to me he is simply trying to justify (probably unconsciously) why he is thinking about a new car.
  
 It reminded me of my audiophile days. No matter what I bought I would read a review or reviews (no internet during most of my audiophile days) in which a listening experience with a particular product seemed far superior to what I felt I was experiencing with my current system. It would really start to bug me that I thought someone somewhere in the world was "enjoying" an audio experience superior to mine. And my pocketbook would take another hit.
  
 Fortunately, I'm not that way anymore.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> OMG- What have I just done. As well as purchasing the Mimby I've just pulled the trigger on an NAD-D1050.
> 
> This is the problem with going on holiday to Spain, basking in the sun, relaxing with lots of cheap, tasty vino.
> 
> I've lost all touch with *reality*, and I LOVE it.


 
 Reality is highly overrated


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Yesterday I drove to the mountains (Prescott) to visit a friend I have known since 4th grade. He has been obsessed with cars his entire life. We don't see each other very often anymore but every time I see him he has 1 or 2 new cars and is already talking about the next car he is thinking about buying. He is bright, articulate and level headed (in all aspects of his life other than cars). His explanations of why he bought the new car and why he is thinking about something new always seem rational on their fact, but it seems pretty obvious to me he is simply trying to justify (probably unconsciously) why he is thinking about a new car.
> 
> It reminded me of my audiophile days. No matter what I bought I would read a review or reviews (no internet during most of my audiophile days) in which a listening experience with a particular product seemed far superior to what I felt I was experiencing with my current system. It would really start to bug me that I thought someone somewhere in the world was "enjoying" an audio experience superior to mine. And my pocketbook would take another hit.
> 
> Fortunately, I'm not that way anymore.


 
 Fortunate indeed !


----------



## UntilThen

Well I'm in touch with reality that's why I didn't buy the ECC32. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It sold for US$143 and US$117 for used tubes and without any tube test data. 
  
 Anyway I have enough good drivers.... and I don't mean car drivers. 
  
 I was trying out ECC31 and Mazda 6N7G with Chatham 6520 today. Just listening to music and it's really nice sound from those drivers. Spork you are going to be happy with your Visseaux 6N7G.
  
 Someone please buy the NOS NIB Chatham 6AS7G on eBay so I won't be tempted to buy it.
  
 Howie, looks like you're collecting DACs. 
  
 Oh Mordy's about to send me the RCA 6080s and CF's vinyls about to arrive..... and would you believe it, my Elise (#22) will be exactly 11 months old tomorrow and still working like a charm.


----------



## Lord Raven

Is Chord Hugo the ultimate DAC ever, I am so tempted, it can play anything, can go mobile with it, has received countless awards for sound and technology. Schiit doesn't play DSD so it is out of the game, NAD M51 as well.


----------



## mordy

So pct, what do you drive? (I drive a Toaster, but mine is sans toast, label and cord)
  




  
 It is more like this:
  




  
 It is a 2004 Scion xB and nicknamed the Toaster because of the shape. And made in Japan.


----------



## pctazhp

lord raven said:


> Is Chord Hugo the ultimate DAC ever, I am so tempted, it can play anything, can go mobile with it, has received countless awards for sound and technology. Schiit doesn't play DSD so it is out of the game, NAD M51 as well.


 
 LR. I suspect that most of us have only heard 3 or 4 of current DACs, at best. I don't see how anyone (on this thread or otherwise) can tell you what DAC would be best suited for you. Obviously, you can rule out those DACs that don't play the formats you need. But, in my not very humble opinion, finding the "best" DAC is a fantasy. A lot of people seem to love the Chord Hugo, and it is portable. But whether you will like its SQ is anyone's guess.
  
 Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, I'm not convinced that there is a "world of difference" between most of the currently popular DACs. I think that choice of tubes for Elise and choice of headphones is far more important. I hate this term and I think this is the first time I have ever used it on HeadFi, but YMMV


----------



## lukeap69

lord raven said:


> Is Chord Hugo the ultimate DAC ever, I am so tempted, it can play anything, can go mobile with it, has received countless awards for sound and technology. Schiit doesn't play DSD so it is out of the game, NAD M51 as well.




Many headfiers prefer Mojo over the Hugo and it is far cheaper too.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> So pct, what do you drive? (I drive a Toaster, but mine is sans toast, label and cord)


 
 Mordy:  I proudly drive a 2003 Chevy Trailblazer. It's most outstanding feature is it was fully paid for a long time ago. It is not burdened with layers of debt. Definition of "layers of debt": *Distinct*, easily identifiable monthly installment payments due on the same date each month.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 I thought my car was the oldest, but you beat me with one year lol. BTW, what's your YMMV? I get around 22-24mpg around town.


----------



## HOWIE13

lukeap69 said:


> Many headfiers prefer Mojo over the Hugo and it is far cheaper too.


 
  
 I'm impressed by Mojo too.
  
*From what I've read* it's sound is not that much different from Hugo. Apparently, Hugo has a wider sound stage and Mojo is a bit more 'musical', maybe with a little more inner detail.
  
 Whatever, I took the view that the rest of my kit can amply open up the sound-stage and, doing all I wanted it to do at $1500 cheaper, I had to audition Mojo.


----------



## mordy

Here is a very interesting and brief article on tube testing - worth reading:
  
 https://www.radiolaguy.com/info/TubeTesting.htm
  
 Here is a question that I find very interesting:
  
 In looking for tubes I found somebody selling an octal 12V tube that measures very well. Testing the same tube_ *at 6.3V*_* the mutual conductance (Gm) meets the minimum requirements for this tube, and he makes a statement that you could use this particular 12V tube in a 6.3V application.*
  
 In other words, if I can believe this, this 12V tube would work in the Elise without an external voltage source.
  
 Does this sound plausible?


----------



## Lord Raven

I just discovered that people are comparing Chord Hugo (2500$) to ifi iDSD Micro (500$). Then I found that ifi is releasing a new DAC called ifi iDSD Pro during next month's first week at RMAF LOL Now the game changed once again, the new participants in the mix are Hugo and iDSD Pro.
  
 Arnold, when are you getting the *Holo Audio - Spring DAC - LEVEL 3 "Kitsune Tuned Edition"* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Pct, I am just keeping the thread rolling, without a DAC, Elise is nothing (for me).


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Here is a very interesting and brief article on tube testing - worth reading:
> 
> https://www.radiolaguy.com/info/TubeTesting.htm
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not sure what that article means by 'tube quality' but as far as using 12V tubes in 6V amps this link may help those better versed than me in electronics. Whenever I've mistakenly put 12V tubes into a 6V amp all I hear is a wooshing noise, no music whatsoever, but I have not done it in Elise.
  
 http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/heater.html


----------



## mordy

Some people really like the ST Coke bottle RCA 6AS7G tubes, even to the point of being their preferred tube, but in general, they have not received much press on this thread.
  
 Since my "mature" Elise likes the EL3N and RCA6080 combo especially well, I decided to try the RCA 6AS7G tubes as well, relying on  "Everything goes better with Coke." Why not?
  




  
 They sound quite good but with a somewhat gruff edge in the bass - maybe this pair is new and needs to burn in.
  
 50 listings today on eBay with several pairs for $21-25 incl shipping. Definitively worth trying if you are so inclined.
  
 BTW, this is one of the few pairs I have of large tubes with their original boxes. What happens to all the old tube boxes?


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Some people really like the ST Coke bottle RCA 6AS7G tubes, even to the point of being their preferred tube, but in general, they have not received much press on this thread.
> 
> Since my "mature" Elise likes the EL3N and RCA6080 combo especially well, I decided to try the RCA 6AS7G tubes as well, relying on  "Everything goes better with Coke." Why not?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have the RCA 6AS7G tubes. I find them the warmest tubes I've used as power tubes in Elise
  
 I can understand why some would like this tube but even with detailed drivers I find it a bit too mid-bass orientated, with insufficient inner detail in my system for my ears.


----------



## pctazhp

lord raven said:


> I just discovered that people are comparing Chord Hugo (2500$) to ifi iDSD Micro (500$). Then I found that ifi is releasing a new DAC called ifi iDSD Pro during next month's first week at RMAF LOL Now the game changed once again, the new participants in the mix are Hugo and iDSD Pro.
> 
> Arnold, when are you getting the *Holo Audio - Spring DAC - LEVEL 3 "Kitsune Tuned Edition"*
> 
> ...


 
 Man cannot live on Elise alone


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> I thought my car was the oldest, but you beat me with one year lol.* BTW, what's your YMMV*? I get around 22-24mpg around town.


 
 UGG(((( Don't ask


----------



## lukeap69

lord raven said:


> I just discovered that people are comparing Chord Hugo (2500$) to ifi iDSD Micro (500$). Then I found that ifi is releasing a new DAC called ifi iDSD Pro during next month's first week at RMAF LOL Now the game changed once again, the new participants in the mix are Hugo and iDSD Pro.
> 
> Arnold, when are you getting the [COLOR=FFA500]*Holo Audio - Spring DAC - LEVEL 3 "Kitsune Tuned Edition"*[/COLOR]
> 
> Pct, I am just keeping the thread rolling, without a DAC, Elise is nothing (for me).




LR

My dealer is still waiting for the Jensen caps and he is expecting by end of the month. I hope this DAC will keep me happy for long time... I am spending too much on this hobby.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
_"I hate this term YMMV"_
  
 Now i know why.....


----------



## lukeap69

howie13 said:


> I'm impressed by Mojo too.
> 
> *From what I've read* it's sound is not that much different from Hugo. Apparently, Hugo has a wider sound stage and Mojo is a bit more 'musical', maybe with a little more inner detail.
> 
> Whatever, I took the view that the rest of my kit can amply open up the sound-stage and, doing all I wanted it to do at $1500 cheaper, I had to audition Mojo.




Mojo is a fantastic DAC for its price. And with the pound down (is it still?) buying from UK like Audio Sanctuary is a cheaper option for some (that's a hint for you Naveed!)


----------



## mordy

hi Howie13,
  
 I agree with your assessment after having run the big RCAs for a couple of hours - especially the mid bass has a murky quality, but otherwise it is not bad at all. To me the RCA 6080 sound better.
  
 Possibly the bass is equipment dependent.


----------



## mordy

Speaking about DACs -
  
 Meet Dave:
  




  
 If you ask how much it costs, you can't afford it. ( Around $10K....)


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> OMG- What have I just done. As well as purchasing the Mimby I've just pulled the trigger on an NAD-D1050.
> 
> This is the problem with going on holiday to Spain, basking in the sun, relaxing with lots of cheap, tasty vino.
> 
> I've lost all touch with reality, and I LOVE it.


 

 Yeah? You were swayed by some Spanish Lullaby?


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Pct, I am just keeping the thread rolling, without a DAC, Elise is nothing (for me).


 
 I'm the solution to your problem. You can buy my spare state of the art DAC while saving up for your Hugo. It uses a tube !
  
 ... and it's also a T1 to match your T1.


----------



## Spork67

mordy said:


> Speaking about DACs -
> 
> Meet Dave:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Looks like some kind of weird playstation controller.


----------



## geetarman49

spork67 said:


> Looks like some kind of weird playstation controller.


 

 haha ... good one!


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  look what just arrived.


----------



## UntilThen

20 LPs of living treasures including some classical masterpieces. I'm over the moon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Unfortunately I'm going out with my wife but will be back later to spin these. Now I need @pctazhp to send me some Arizona cactus stylus.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> 20 LPs of living treasures including some classical masterpieces. I'm over the moon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 On their way. The ultimate in *organic* vinyl playback.


----------



## Lord Raven

@UntilThen Alizee refreshed my memory, thanks  Your T1 sounds like made for a T1 hehe.. I want to audition it when I visit you next time


----------



## Lord Raven

lukeap69 said:


> LR
> 
> My dealer is still waiting for the Jensen caps and he is expecting by end of the month. I hope this DAC will keep me happy for long time... I am spending too much on this hobby.


 
  
 LOL Let's hope so  I remember you said similar things when you bought a dedicated music player.. 
  
 I might settle down with a mojo but I want to see the arrival of iDSD Pro first, if that is a game changer then I have my DAC


----------



## UntilThen

Oooo those stylus will dig deep for absolute clarity. Pack it well don't let it protrude out of the box.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright LR where did you see Alizee. I want to know. You can take me next time.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> OMG- What have I just done. As well as purchasing the Mimby I've just pulled the trigger on an NAD-D1050.
> 
> This is the problem with going on holiday to Spain, basking in the sun, relaxing with lots of cheap, tasty vino.
> 
> I've lost all touch with reality, and I LOVE it.


 
 Awesome Howie, and how ironic. We'll most likely get our Mimby at around the same time. Now we'll see just how similar our sound sig. preferences are, or not. Having just scratched the surface of researching on Mimby vs. Gumby (Modi 2 Multibit vs. Gungnir Multibit), I'm hearing that both have a similar sound sig. yet the Gumby has larger stage... and being around 5x the price and 8x the size, I would hope the Gumby is more refined all across. And if the Mimby does sound great that would be a massive step up from the Modi 1, which was my first DAC and very low-tier performance.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen I got the tracking info emailed to me when the package was delivered, I was hoping it went to the right place.  Hope you did not have to much trouble getting them out of the carton, tried to get one more in but short of pouring oil in there to lubricate them, there was just no way.  Nineteen fit good, but when I put number 20 in, sides started to, shall we say, bend out a bit. Glad they made it and hope you enjoy.  Watch out for the extra needles for AZ, you should be good for a life time with that many needles!


----------



## UntilThen

It's hard getting myself out sightseeing with my better half but I shall be back.... like Arnie says.

View from the boat


The coat hanger.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen I got the tracking info emailed to me when the package was delivered, I was hoping it went to the right place.  Hope you did not have to much trouble getting them out of the carton, tried to get one more in but short of pouring oil in there to lubricate them, there was just no way.  Nineteen fit good, but when I put number 20 in, sides started to, shall we say, bend out a bit. Glad they made it and hope you enjoy.  *Watch out for the extra needles for AZ, you should be good for a life time with that many needles!*


 
 Or he can donate them to the city to plant in front of the opera house to add a little international touch.


----------



## DecentLevi

An interesting point for those owners of TOTL amps such as Elise that are able to 'make the most out of' a DAC.
  
 After just finishing a multiple A/B critical listening comparison of my delta-sigma (DS) vs. multibit (R2R) DAC, the differences I've notices were huge and far encompassing. Generally you get a much more organic / lifelike sound with larger soundstage & imaging that's much more 'out of your head', and better defined layers - making the delta sigma DAC sound 'brittle' and artificial after listening to the DS.
  
 Of course YMMV depending on the exact DAC you're using, and with my multibit DAC I also heard a lot of coloration, but that's more specific to the Bimby DAC. But in general, this is vaguely what the masses have reported on the differences between all DS vs. multibit DAC's. Delta sigma includes all DAC's that are not multibit, such as ODAC, Modi 1, Gustard X12, NAD 1050, Chord Hugo & Mojo, etc.


----------



## Spork67

decentlevi said:


> An interesting point for those owners of TOTL amps such as Elise that are able to 'make the most out of' a DAC.
> 
> After just finishing a multiple A/B critical listening comparison of my delta-sigma (DS) vs. multibit (R2R) DAC, the differences I've notices were huge and far encompassing. Generally you get a much more organic / lifelike sound with larger soundstage & imaging that's much more 'out of your head', and better defined layers - *making the **delta sigma** DAC sound 'brittle' and artificial after listening to the DS.*
> 
> Of course YMMV depending on the exact DAC you're using, and with my multibit DAC I also heard a lot of coloration, but that's more specific to the Bimby DAC. But in general, this is vaguely what the masses have reported on the differences between all DS vs. multibit DAC's. Delta sigma includes all DAC's that are not multibit, such as ODAC, Modi 1, Gustard X12, NAD 1050, Chord Hugo & Mojo, etc.


 
 Hi DL.
 I'm confused - are you saying the MB DAC/s sounds brittle and artificial after listening to the DS DAC/s? (The bold bit)
 Or do you mean the DS sounds brittle and artificial compared to the MB? (If the last DS in the bold is a typo)


----------



## UntilThen

Not wanting to get into the DAC debate because that will last till the 22nd century. It's no good generalising that Multibit is better than Delta Sigma. Much depends on the implementation and off course individuals ears. 
  
 I've here something more natural and organic, even though it's missing the Arizona needle. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 This album by  Kitaro is awesome. Thanks Don. Love it. !!! I've to listen to it several times. I can't find the album on Youtube but this is good. Tubes used are Fivre 6N7G brown base and Tung Sol 7236 and with modded HD650.


----------



## connieflyer

I am not sure now but I know I had a couple of limited edition releases back then , interesting how Manheim Steamrollers style and composition changed from Fresh Air on to seven


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Awesome Howie, and how ironic. We'll most likely get our Mimby at around the same time. Now we'll see just how similar our sound sig. preferences are, or not. Having just scratched the surface of researching on Mimby vs. Gumby (Modi 2 Multibit vs. Gungnir Multibit), I'm hearing that both have a similar sound sig. yet the Gumby has larger stage... and being around 5x the price and 8x the size, I would hope the Gumby is more refined all across. And if the Mimby does sound great that would be a massive step up from the Modi 1, which was my first DAC and very low-tier performance.


 
 Well I'm having problems finding a web seller who has a Mimby with a UK plug just now, but my NAD is on it's way.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I don't take much notice about the way DAC's work, it's too complicated, that's why I'm auditioning a load.
 Many Multibit DAC's nowadays I gather are DS anyway.
  
 EDIT: Mimby ordered-yay!


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Well I'm having problems finding a web seller who has a Mimby with a UK plug just now, but my NAD is on it's way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm building my own DAC. But my local Home Depot keeps running out of the wall switches I use to switch between 1 and 0.


----------



## connieflyer

Okay, all this talk about dacs, I purchased the PSAudio Nuwave Dsd dac and it is great, bought the black version, and it fits in with the Elise very well.  Sits on top of the dac, takes up less room and kind of looks like an extension of the Elise. Took advantage of their generous trade-in and saved over $400.00. No wall warts for power supply, large size torroidial trans and solid as a rock.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Okay, all this talk about dacs, I purchased the PSAudio Nuwave Dsd dac and it is great, bought the black version, and it fits in with the Elise very well.  Sits on top of the dac, takes up less room and kind of looks like an extension of the Elise. Took advantage of their generous trade-in and saved over $400.00. No wall warts for power supply, large size torroidial trans and solid as a rock.


 
 Obviously, you prefer a "brittle" sound.


----------



## connieflyer

pctazhp said:


> Obviously, you prefer a "brittle" sound.


 
 The only "brittle" sound I hear is when I move around and my bones creak!


----------



## richdytch

I realised I'd gone quite literally months without using my HE400 with the Elise, so I'm working in headphones today. Considering it only puts out 200mW, the job it does of driving these is astonishing. Completely forgot it was a brilliant headphone amp and not just a great preamp


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Well I'm having problems finding a web seller who has a Mimby with a UK plug just now, but my NAD is on it's way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 While you're at it, you might as well get the Arcam irdac, Audiolab M-DAC. Musical Fidelity M1 DAC. These are the lower end of town. When you're finish, work your way up to Chord Dave.
  
 ...and don't worry too much about the multibit, delta sigma mumbo jumbo. It will only kill your brain cells. Just listen to music and don't do too much a/b ing because then you'll miss the music completely.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I am not sure now but I know I had a couple of limited edition releases back then , interesting how Manheim Steamrollers style and composition changed from Fresh Air on to seven


 
 I think the Kitaro album is a limited edition because it sounded special. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm listening to Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade now. Intriguing as I read the cover notes on what this piece is all about.
  
_The Sultan Schariar, convinced that all women are false and faithless, vowed to put to death each of his wives after the first nuptial night. But the Sultana Scheherazade saved her life by entertaining her lord with fascinating tales, told seriatim, for a thousand and one nights. The Sultan, consumed with curiosity, postponed from day to day the execution of his wife, and finally repudiated his bloody vow entirely._
  
Now I'm lost in Arabian nights.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> I realised I'd gone quite literally months without using my HE400 with the Elise, so I'm working in headphones today. Considering it only puts out 200mW, the job it does of driving these is astonishing. Completely forgot it was a brilliant headphone amp and not just a great preamp


 
 What a discovery Rich. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Elise is a brilliant headphone amp. Her other talents are secondary. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 When I started in head-fi, I couldn't use headphones for long but now it's like a natural fit. Being able to hear a full scale orchestra at any time of day ... including past midnight here now... is awesome.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> While you're at it, you might as well get the Arcam irdac, Audiolab M-DAC. Musical Fidelity M1 DAC. These are the lower end of town. When you're finish, work your way up to Chord Dave.
> 
> ...and don't worry too much about the multibit, delta sigma mumbo jumbo. It will only kill your brain cells. Just listen to music and don't do too much a/b ing because then you'll miss the music completely.


 
 Right. Paralysis by analysis = dead brain cells = the blissful state of complete ignorance I have achieved.
  
 Personally, I think he should just go to the Dave and be done with it. He owes it to us to allow us to live vicariously through him.


----------



## Lord Raven

The price for ifi DSD Pro is set to 2000 USD  What a great day to find out it is out of my reach, looks like I will be waiting for the new year bargains.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I think the Kitaro album is a limited edition because it sounded special.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The repeatative, sensual, sinuous violin solo represents Scheherazade as she beguiles the Sultan. Wonderful evocative music, brilliantly orchestrated. Hope you have a good recording.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Right. Paralysis by analysis = dead brain cells = the blissful state of complete ignorance I have achieved.
> 
> Personally, I think he should just go to the Dave and be done with it. He owes it to us to allow us to live vicariously through him.


 
 You going to provide the cash then?


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> You going to provide the cash then?


 
 Just let me know where to send it


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  you have a masterpiece here. Phase 4 Stereo is a special recording. Lovely cover notes when you open the double page album.
  
 I'm listening to the movements spellbound ... as in my own movement is restricted. I sit spellbound by what I hear. This is glorious music. Hats off to Rimsky. He's brilliant.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> While you're at it, you might as well get the Arcam irdac, Audiolab M-DAC. Musical Fidelity M1 DAC. These are the lower end of town. When you're finish, work your way up to Chord Dave.
> 
> ...and don't worry too much about the multibit, delta sigma mumbo jumbo. It will only kill your brain cells. Just listen to music and don't do too much a/b ing because then you'll miss the music completely.


 
  
 I have the M-DAC and like it, but it sounds a bit 'processed'. I've heard the other two and not too keen. Not heard Dave,and probably never will


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Just let me know where to send it


 
  
 That's like the yearly allowance the wife gives me


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @connieflyer  you have a masterpiece here. Phase 4 Stereo is a special recording. Lovely cover notes when you open the double page album.
> 
> I'm listening to the movements spellbound ... as in my own movement is restricted. I sit spellbound by what I hear. This is glorious music. Hats off to Rimsky. He's brilliant.


 
 Excellent recording-I can hear the waves in the last movement even from the other side of the Earth.


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> What a discovery Rich.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Definitely - I have vowed to do more late night headphone listening...


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Excellent recording-I can hear the waves in the last movement even from the other side of the Earth.


 
 Well let me tell ya. It's a Tsunami here.
  
 Serious? Is it an excellent recording? I'm a newbie in classical but what I'm hearing is VERY good.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Well let me tell ya. It's a Tsunami here.
> 
> Serious? Is it an excellent recording? I'm a newbie in classical but what I'm hearing is VERY good.


 
 Absolutely-Stokowski had a special galvanising magic. -He was also recording at a time of great experimentation in sound technology.
 Bernstein gives a more sensual, erotic performance, but for raw energy, you got it!


----------



## HOWIE13

@richdytch 
  
 This thread is moving so fast Spanish internet can't keep up!
 I'm sure you mentioned sometime back about Elise's 200 mW output and I find that figure difficult to believe, unless it's into 600 ohms.
 I mean, Espressivo is quoted at 400 mW and Elise for me has more apparent power. I don't know what headphone impedance values these figures refer to but Elise sure sounds more powerful than 200mW into say 300ohms, to me.


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> The price for ifi DSD Pro is set to 2000 USD  What a great day to find out it is out of my reach, looks like I will be waiting for the new year bargains.


 
 This little thing cost US$2000? Bummer if you buy it I could hear it when you next come here. Just cut down on your food expense.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> This little thing cost US$2000? Bummer if you buy it I could hear it when you next come here. Just cut down on your food expense.


 
  
  
 And no one will be living vicariously through me listening to that one either.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> This thread is moving so fast Spanish internet can't keep up!


 
 Your wife must be wondering why you're hunched over your laptop typing into the forum when you're on a Spanish holiday. Can you tell her what a great bunch of guys we are.


----------



## mordy

Old joke:
  
 This item is not selling - we got to raise the price....


----------



## Lord Raven

LOL If I only cut down the coffee expense, I can easily afford a Dave or a Lampizator  Let's not drink coffee!
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> This little thing cost US$2000? Bummer if you buy it I could hear it when you next come here. Just cut down on your food expense.


----------



## DecentLevi

spork67 said:


> Hi DL.
> I'm confused - are you saying the MB DAC/s sounds brittle and artificial after listening to the DS DAC/s? (The bold bit)
> Or do you mean the DS sounds brittle and artificial compared to the MB? (If the last DS in the bold is a typo)


 
 I was moreso saying that my DS DAC came off as brittle & artificial to me, after freshly listening to my multibit DAC. However, allowing some margin for differences among individual DACs, this is vaguely the impression I've gotten from other delta sigma vs. multibit DAC's as well.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Your wife must be wondering why you're hunched over your laptop typing into the forum when you're on a Spanish holiday. Can you tell her what a great bunch of guys we are.


 
  
 Ha ha She's just given me a row for ignoring her all day and hogging the laptop.
  
 She also thinks we all need treatment LOL.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Ha ha She's just given me a row for ignoring her all day and hogging the laptop.
> 
> She also thinks we all need treatment LOL.


 
 The only treatment we need is music. I've flip the _Scheherazade_ (Rimsky-Korsakov) LP several times now. At this rate, I'll wear out the needle fast.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> The only treatment we need is music. I've flip the _Scheherazade_ (Rimsky-Korsakov) LP several times now. At this rate, I'll wear out the needle fast.


 
  
 YEAH-I just told her the only treatment we need is more doses of Elise.LOL
  
 She's now decided at 6pm it's cool enough to go to the beach-so keep enjoying your Arabian Nights.


----------



## UntilThen

It's a good thing I can listen to music at 2:18am in the comfort on my own cave. If I go to the beach now, I'll be arrested.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> It's a good thing I can listen to music at 2:18am in the comfort on my own cave. If I go to the beach now, I'll be arrested.


 
  
 ......especially if you go with Scheherazade


----------



## UntilThen

I can't go to sleep with the Arabian nights, it's too haunting so I need one more album. 
  
 This album by the Eagles is pretty old and I've lost my CD version so it's great to hear it now on vinyl. Thanks CF. So many treasures you've send me.


----------



## pctazhp

As I'm sure everyone knows, today is the most momentous day in all of human history - the first US presidential debate for 2016. It is mandatory that all Americans remain glued to the TV for the rest of the day and late into the night until the debate is over and all the talking heads have provided their analysis. So this may be my last post until tomorrow (I know-so sad!!!!).
  
 As the world will never be the same after today, I assume we will just have to wait until tomorrow to see what the best DAC in the world will be going forward.


----------



## mordy

Hope I am not insulting anybody, but somebody said that the presidential debate up til now is "like a fire in a garbage dumpster."
  
 Let's hope that the debate tonight is civilized, factual, and concentrating on major political issues and not on personal ones.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hope I am not insulting anybody, but somebody said that the presidential debate up til now is "like a fire in a garbage dumpster."
> 
> Let's hope that the debate tonight is civilized, factual, and concentrating on major political issues and not on personal ones.


 
 You may be insulting garbage dumpsters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well, there's always hope )))


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> As I'm sure everyone knows, today is the most momentous day in all of human history - the first US presidential debate for 2016. It is mandatory that all Americans remain glued to the TV for the rest of the day and late into the night until the debate is over and all the talking heads have provided their analysis. So this may be my last post until tomorrow (I know-so sad!!!!).
> 
> As the world will never be the same after today, I assume we will just have to wait until tomorrow to see what the best DAC in the world will be going forward.


 
  
 Geez...can't keep up with this thread at the mo' - but yeah, things should quieten down 'til tomorrow..._*then what, lol?!!!*_...World's End?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Ah well, P, I shall hope that tonight you don't either expire laughing or out of sheer, unadulterated shock/horror LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...but glad you at least said it may be your last post _*until*_ tomorrow! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And so I may as well leave my photo line-up of latest tubes 'til the morrow also...See ya!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


mordy said:


> Hope I am not insulting anybody, but somebody said that the presidential debate up til now is "like a fire in a garbage dumpster."
> 
> *Let's hope that the debate tonight is civilized, factual, and concentrating on major political issues and not on personal one*s.


 
  
 Didn't realise your sense of humour stretched _*quite*_ that far, mordy!!...HAPPY LISTENING TONIGHT!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(then again..._*who knows, lol?!!*_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## UntilThen

While everyone is watching the debate, I'm immersed in Stokowski / Wagner The Ring of Nibelung.
  
 Stokowski loves Wagner and I love Stokowski's interpretation of Wagner's Ring. This is a work of sheer scale. It's massive in length and grandeur. The scale and scope of the story is epic. It's about gods, heroes and mythical creatures chasing after a ring. Whoever gets it rules the world. Sounds like Lord of the Ring? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
The four parts that constitute the _Ring_ cycle are, in sequence:


_Das Rheingold_ (_The Rhinegold_)
_Die Walküre_ (_The Valkyrie_)
_Siegfried_
_Götterdämmerung_ (_Twilight of the Gods_)
  

  
@connieflyer  thanks much for giving me your treasured LPs. They shall be loved and treasured. It sounds glorious through Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

You are quite welcome, I am glad some one will enjoy them


----------



## Lord Raven

I have all the high resolution albums you just posted UT  Treasures indeed!

Plus, Focal plays them perfectly, while Elise is resting


----------



## UntilThen

LR you don't want a DAC. You want this deck instead.

https://www.vpiindustries.com/scout.html

"Rather, this is a flat-out, unconditional, "Holy Mother of Crap, I can't believe how good this thing is" recommendation. It's hard to imagine another way of spending $****.** that will add this much to your system." - Art Dudley - Sterophile


----------



## AltCtrl

untilthen said:


> Is it buzzing or some static sound? I wasn't aware of this until recently on my Elise but this is how it's solved.
> 
> First the symptoms. With no music playing and Elise switch on, I turn up the volume gradually and I hear static rustling sound from 1 o'clock onwards. As if by intuition, I shifted Elise front and position ever so slightly. I did this with the volume still up and no music playing until the sound goes away and it does. Why that's a problem and how that would solve it, I don't know. I can only conclude it's picking up some interference from other devices or the cables are touching.
> 
> Try that and see if that solves your problem.


 

 The buzzing seems to have gone away on its own. Thanks though!


----------



## UntilThen

Excellent. Mr Buzz must have given up after reading 10 pages of our posts. He's had enough and retired.


----------



## UntilThen

@louisxiawei your buzz has gone away too right?


----------



## tonykaz

Howie13 & DACs,
  
 I too was searching thru DACs back in 2014 & 2015.    I didn't discover anything superb.  
  
 Big Sound 2015 ( Tyll's big Event ) featured a few top DACs and Bob Katz ( the Mastering Engineer ), those pricy DACs didn't move the needle for anyone.  I heard the Yggy at a headphone meet and was NOT impressed!  I talked with Jason Stoddard about it, he said DACs are boring!  I have to agree.  Bob Katz says the Mastering Engineers are 100% DS, R2R is Old-School for them.  So, all our recorded music is done with DS DACs. 
  
 I'm told: the Music Industry's standard DACs are the Benchmark, Antelope and Prizm.  ( $2,000 to $13,000 for the full boogie Antelope with extra power supplies & Atomic Clock )  Phew! 
  
 However,  Chord happen to have a nice design in the Field Programmable DAC that Rob Watts came up with. ( which you own )  This Chord stuff is capturing the Audiophile, for good reason? 
  
 I'll be following along to hear your report but I don't expect hear anything special.  It's said that if a DAC is doing it's job properly, you can't hear it. 
  
 Tony in Michigan
  
 ps.  Stereophile didn't give the Schiit DACs any sort of recommendation ( in this most recent Recommended Components Issue ), they did recommend the X-Box as a DAC ( despite it being discontinued long ago ), used prices = $25 to $75 on eBay.  What the hell is an X-Box?


----------



## DecentLevi

Most of my lossless files are from the analogue era, so R2R / multibit DAC's will still serve them wonderfully. Some DS produced tracks had a more 'proper' & realistic sound with the multibit DAC I tried, so I'd say these 'old school' DACs still sound better even with DS recordings. 
  
 And to *keep* this somewhat* on topic *(hint, hint), these tests were done with the Elise amp.


----------



## Spork67

Well, this will put my head-fi spending spree on hold for a while.
 Probably just as well.
 Between the T1's, TS 5998s, Visseaux 6N7G,  EL3Ns (and adapters to suit) I should have enough stuff to play with, and hopefully my "end game" setup.
 Almost forgot - still waiting to get my STAX stuff back from the technician too...
  
 Anyhoo - saving up for a fishing trip now:
  

  
 A week of car stereo / no music should give me a whole new level of appreciation for what I'm hearing now, let alone what I'll be hearing when my new goodies arrive.


----------



## UntilThen

You should be good with tubes.

As for bream fishing, beat this.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> You should be good with tubes.
> 
> As for bream fishing, beat this.


 
 Oh man - is that Oman?
 One that size would probably win most comp's in Austraila - and they are 5 fish bags!


----------



## mordy

Hi Spork67,
  
 Just out of curiosity (I know this is off topic) - I had never heard of bream fish, so a while ago I watched a few YouTube videos of bream fishing. In every instance the fisherman unhooked the fish and put it carefully  back into the water. In addition, this fish did not seem to put up much of a fight when caught. What it is all about?
  
 Is this it? Saw a t-shirt once that said: "A bad day fishing is better than a good day at the office."


----------



## connieflyer

I believe it is.  Unhooking the fish and setting it free, well, years ago, that was my theory on women, catch and release!  Hard part was catching them!


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> Well, this will put my head-fi spending spree on hold for a while.
> Probably just as well.
> Between the T1's, TS 5998s, Visseaux 6N7G,  EL3Ns (and adapters to suit) I should have enough stuff to play with, and hopefully my "end game" setup.
> Almost forgot - still waiting to get my STAX stuff back from the technician too...
> ...


 
  
 Yo S67...._*lots*_ of appreciation to come - not to mention _*enjoyment*_, LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


----------



## hypnos1

Right then guys, as promised, here's the lineup of my next experimental workload...(when I can get the time, that is!) - ie. the EL3NG/EL11 versions of the Philips EL3N....  :
  

                                                                                                                                                                                Tungsram EL11
  
 The variety of bottle shape/size, and internal construction - not to mention bases lol! -  is appearing to be far greater than ever anticipated within this family of tubes. The only two that are identical - not unsurprisingly, given @Oskari's info! - are the Telefunken and RFT EL11s. But what _is_ surprising are the internal similarities between the Australian Philips EL3NG and the Valvo EL11.. both having large, oval-shaped _*mesh*_ plates - all the others appear to have the usual _solid_ ones...(the size of these cylindrical plates is incredible!).
  
 And so now I suspect there could well be quite a variety in sound delivery also...this should prove a very interesting exercise, methinks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...the only downsides being the availability/price of these alternatives and the lack of adapters for them, so a part of me hopes they aren't way ahead of the Philips "Red Series" EL3N 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but another part wants for me to be blown away once more, lol!!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....all in due time...


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 How do you manage to see the inside construction of these tubes? Since I had the misfortune of shorting several EL3N tubes I was going to take a hammer and look inside, but it seems that you beat me to the inside view lol.....


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps scraping off the red paint might help it would be worth a try on an old tube that's no good anyways


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> How do you manage to see the inside construction of these tubes? Since I had the misfortune of shorting several EL3N tubes I was going to take a hammer and look inside, but it seems that you beat me to the inside view lol.....


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 No magic here, mon ami...unlike the Philips "Reds", the others don't have the top obscured by silver flashing, so a powerful Cree led torch gives a fairly good view lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but as your poor EL3Ns are no more, get that hammer working and take a peek!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...then show us the sad result!...(But I bet you won't be as surprised as I was when I spied those mesh plates I mentioned!)...CHEERS!..


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Perhaps scraping off the red paint might help it would be worth a try on an old tube that's no good anyways


 
  
 Nah, cf..._*get that hammer out, lol!!!*_..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## connieflyer

If I Had a Hammer comma nevermind that was Peter Paul and Mary get the hammer but that's okay let's see what's in there


----------



## UntilThen

tonykaz said:


> It's said that if a DAC is doing it's job properly, you can't hear it.


 
 Tony I had a good chuckle reading your post but you have some good points there.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I believe it is.  Unhooking the fish and setting it free, well, years ago, that was my theory on women, catch and release!  Hard part was catching them!


 
 You have to stop making me laugh so hard first thing in the morning.


----------



## hypnos1

Ooooh...just out of interest re. the "mesh plates" I described previously in the EL3NGs and Valvo EL11, I found this comment on such 'beauties'   :  
  

  
 And the ones I see are _definitely _"true wire mesh"....the plot thickens, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Right then guys, as promised, here's the lineup of my next experimental workload...(when I can get the time, that is!) - ie. the EL3NG/EL11 versions of the Philips EL3N....  :
> 
> 
> Tungsram EL11
> ...


 
 H1, thanks for this photoshoot. Going by size alone, the Australian wins here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's a beautiful tube too. Well they all look pristine condition to me. I think it will be a fun project and I will certainly await your comparisons. 
  
 Well I posted a picture of the EL3Ns sans the red paint before and you still can't see the inside. It's too dark. Hammer is the answer. Don't smash it too hard @mordy .


----------



## mordy

Is this a mesh plate or a solid plate with holes in it?
  




  
 I am guessing that the writer means _*wowen*_ mesh and not perforated mesh....


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> H1, thanks for this photoshoot.* Going by size alone, the Australian wins here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo, UT...and there was I thinking the good ol' USofA was the home of _bigger_, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....sorry guys!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. They do indeed look in pretty good nick, but a fair few have the awful "tinkle" of glass shards somewhere inside. I know this is fairly common and normally isn't any problem...but I sure never do like it LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And yes, the view from the top is much clearer!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...hammer even better!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

Maybe this


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> You have to stop making me laugh so hard first thing in the morning.


 

 Oh whoa is me, I can not even make jokes anymore, oh well, I have to get back to my tube surgery, using a glass cutter I am going to cut the tube all the way around the circumference and then carefully remove the glass tube so elements are undisturbed.  Then after I take a couple of photos I will carefully reassemble them using a high quality super glue and see how they sound, should work if I do it right!


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Is this a mesh plate or a solid plate with holes in it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Indeed mordy...the look is entirely different - that tele is definitely NOT the "woven" mesh...those I mentioned definitely ARE!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...(or would appear so to my eyes, at least...shan't be taking the hammer to these though, I'm afraid!!!...).


----------



## mordy

OK folks, this is not for the faint of heart: (NG means No Good)
  




  
 This tube was shorted out by a defective adapter from S..... Thinking of CF, I gave a light tap - nothing happened. A harder tap - nothing.. Then i thought of S.. and how my beloved Little Dot MKIII got fried, and hit it harder:
  




  
 Hope Peter at Interdynamics isn't watching this. There is an unpleasant smell of long forgotten gasses...
  
 Took out the tube from the plastic bag and got rid of the glass shards:
  




  
 Very sturdy construction, oval oil barrel plates, single horse shoe getter - leaving it for the experts to analyze the pictures:
  












  




  




  




 Inside the oval plates is a small flat wire grid surrounded by a larger spiral wire (hard to see)




  
 And finally, an image of the EL3N Space Telescope to the left of the sun:


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Mordy. Finally get to see the innards of the EL3N. Looks pretty robust to me.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Here is a modern day tube that looks like it has real mesh plates:
  




 Here is the link:
 http://www.elektronenroehren.de/avvt/datashts/ad1m.htm


----------



## Spork67

mordy said:


> Hi Spork67,
> 
> Just out of curiosity (I know this is off topic) - I had never heard of bream fish, so a while ago I watched a few YouTube videos of bream fishing. In every instance the fisherman unhooked the fish and put it carefully  back into the water. In addition, this fish did not seem to put up much of a fight when caught. What it is all about?
> 
> Is this it? Saw a t-shirt once that said: "A bad day fishing is better than a good day at the office."


 
 Hey Mordy.
 Bream don't get particularly big - 3lb is a good size fish, 4lb is a cracker. They can be very finicky to catch so you use light (usually 4-6lb) line and they tend to often inhabit snags, oyster racks etc, so getting them out with that light line is challenging. Some fight better than others, pound for pound they would all tow a trout backwards. We have bass in some states, and they do fight a bit better - but no bass where I live, so it's bream (and trout) for me. Most the guys who target them use lures (more sporting than soaking a prawn) and practise catch and release - they are average eating and very slow growing - a big one would be as old as my kids - and they have both left home.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Here is a modern day tube that looks like it has real mesh plates:
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks I found more info on AVVT here plus some interesting pictures of factories making 300B and other tubes. The mesh plates do look nice when lit.
  
 http://www.jacmusic.com/300B/300B-index.htm


----------



## Lord Raven

Verdict     The TEAC UD-503 will slip into any system and play ball with any file you throw at it, but its lack of transparency and rhythmic ability makes it a hard product to recommend – not least when Chord and Audiolab have better-sounding (and more affordable) rivals vying for your cash.






 Read more at http://www.whathifi.com/teac/ud-503/review#vBDOGYh6qLBu92U9.99


----------



## Lord Raven

Audiolab M-DAC and Chord Mojo are the competitors of this 1000$ DAC :/ Did not go well, guys!


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> Thanks I found more info on AVVT here plus some interesting pictures of factories making 300B and other tubes. The mesh plates do look nice when lit.
> 
> http://www.jacmusic.com/300B/300B-index.htm


 
 Awesome, looks like there's still a variety of companies making 300B tubes, and from the specs sheet towards the bottom of that link, looks like they may be compatible with Elise (as drivers or powers?). Maybe we can get XuLing to make an adapter for us... or better yet, have someone else like @hpamdr do a makeshift adapter to test some of these out in the Elise first


----------



## DecentLevi

but then again, these appear to be single triode tubes, so I'm assuming you'd need to run these in dual mode per socket in order to get a stereo signal


----------



## lukeap69

lord raven said:


> [COLOR=0985CB]Audiolab M-DAC [/COLOR][COLOR=333333]and [/COLOR][COLOR=0985CB]Chord Mojo[/COLOR] are the competitors of this 1000$ DAC :/ Did not go well, guys!




Told ya 'bout Mojo!


----------



## DavidA

lord raven said:


> Verdict     The TEAC UD-503 will slip into any system and play ball with any file you throw at it, but its lack of transparency and rhythmic ability makes it a hard product to recommend – not least when Chord and Audiolab have better-sounding (and more affordable) rivals vying for your cash.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting reading, while I haven't heard the UD-503, the UD-501 that I used for a few weeks was quite impressive and to me and it sounded better than a Hugo when used as a DAC, with the matching HA-501 it was almost as good as the MHA-100 which is 4 times the price.  The few times that I've used the Mojo it was a disappointment due to poor synergy with most of the headphones that I tried with it while the Hugo was much more impressive in working great with HD-800, T1 and HE-560.  I've never used the Mojo as a DAC only since I was disappointed with its performance as a DAC/amp to start, maybe I need to revisit this.
  
 The UD-501 and Liquid Gold/EC Balancing Act pairings were quite spectacular for the few days that I got to spend with them last year but the MHDT Pagoda and AudioGD Master 9 were even better.


----------



## DecentLevi

The Mullard 6080's sound so exquisite with electronic music, as if they're tuned for them. It's a really great genre pairing that I've been enjoying all night! Recommended for others to try too. Finally I found their use


----------



## tonykaz

Chord Mojo doesn't have an Amp., but it does have 38mw. output to drive headphones. 
  
 The Amps you lads play with have tons more "color" possibilities than a DAC would offer, which is the point about a tube rolling Amp. ( I think ), you get to change the sound the way a woman changes lip-sticks.   Annnnnnd, we like what cosmetics do, don't we?
  
 I'm following along here to learn all the possibilities that a nice Tube Amp. offers.  You lads seem to be the leading edge of Tube Rolling. 
  
 For all I can tell or have learned, DAC Rolling doesn't move the needle much ( if at all ).  NwAvGuy did a pretty good, laying out of what a DAC needs to do.  If I hadn't learned this the easy way, I'dve spent $11,000 on a MSB Analog DAC and had a serious case of Buyer's remorse.   Of course, if I did spend that MEGA load of cash on a fancy & pricy DAC, I'd be swearing on a Stack of Rolex Catalogs that the darn thing does magic with music and all you lost souls will never be able to experience it cause you ain't got the Dinero, poor un-washed masses that y'all are.  ( my wife made me spend that disposable cash on her, just to let you know the perils of Married Life and $35 lipsticks ) 
  
 Far as I can tell, the Schiit and Chord are the two hot Audiophile DACs!   I've heard the Schiit Yggy and can claim the Valhalla 2 is very much better sounding ( with 4 hot Russian tubes ), isn't even close. ( and that was with factory Stock headphone cables ! ) 
  
 Tony in Michigan
  
 ps.  thank goodness you lads aren't going nutty abooot Cabling or Fuses or Tip-Toes or tons of other tweeky do-dads!!!  ( of course smashing tubes is well-ah, a little bit nuts )


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  this is a Motown classic. Did you keep it from 1985? Love it. The whole LP is dedicated to this one song.
  
 Your LP is still so new !!!


----------



## Spork67

HJey @UntilThen - My 5998's passed through Sydney today.
 Might have them by the weekend.
  
 In other news, I got my STAX gear back from the tech. today.
 He says he's pulled the amp to bits and replaced the transistors, but everything else is fine and he's convinced the problem is the HPs.
 He also admitted he's never even heard of STAX before...
  
 I'll dig out the MM and test the amp outputs again - before one channel was testing as dead, although I was getting static / noise in the corresponding earcup.
 Connect the HPs and it's still doing exactly the same thing - it would be really odd if both the HPs and the amp I bought had a fault on the same channel, but not impossible I guess.
 Frustrated at the $ I spent on e-stats to have nothing I can use. Thank goodness my Elise experience has been so much better.


----------



## UntilThen

That's the problem buying 2nd hand Stax. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 You probably won't need them now that you're getting T1 and 5998 with Elise. Even running the stock Tung Sol 6SN7GTB re-issue with TS 5998 will sound good. That's a Tung Sol combo.


----------



## UntilThen

In other news, @louisxiawei  told me that his hum and rustling leaves sound is gone completely with the arrival of his replacement Mullard 6080.
  
 Finally he can enjoy his music.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> OK folks, this is not for the faint of heart: (NG means No Good)
> 
> Hope Peter at Interdynamics isn't watching this. There is an unpleasant smell of long forgotten gasses...
> 
> ...


 
  
*OMG* mordy...you did it!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...WELL DONE! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(Must admit the sight of that hammer sent shivers down my spine, even though the poor tube _was_ "NG"!). But it's always interesting to see just what's inside these marvels of construction LOL...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...THANKS. And as you say, very sturdy - and 'nice' - construction...nice also to see beefy top mica supports...all the better for minimising possible microphonics, I should imagine.
  
 Hope you've now got over the shock of your deed!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Here is a modern day tube that looks like it has real mesh plates:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, M...your mention of woven vs "perforated" had me wondering about my own sightings, so I had to take an even closer look inside the Aussie EL3NG (this time, the one labelled "Mullard" - just to make sure it's the same as the "Philips"-labelled one). And it certainly does indeed look "woven" as opposed to "hole-punched"...even if it is much finer than the one in your photo above.
  
 Managed to get a shot of it, which I think banishes any kind of doubt, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(I'm getting all excited again!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...but the delay before I can see just what they do is _killing_ me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...   :
  
  


tonykaz said:


> Chord Mojo doesn't have an Amp., but it does have 38mw. output to drive headphones.
> 
> The Amps you lads play with have tons more "color" possibilities than a DAC would offer, which is the point about a tube rolling Amp. ( I think ), you get to change the sound the way a woman changes lip-sticks.   Annnnnnd, we like what cosmetics do, don't we?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Tony...nice to have fresh blood here with us, and glad you find us worth giving a look!
  
 We have indeed done a fair bit of "Rolling"...and yes, most of us are pretty well certifiable "nuts" LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 - where else would you find someone brave enough to wield the hammer to even a defunct tube of such beauty?!!...all in the name of furthering insight into this crazy hobby of ours (*tube* hobby, to be more precise! And yes again, we can indeed "color" sound to an amazing degree just by swapping tubes - and as has been stated many times, Elise's flexibility in this regard allows us to tailor the final result to individual preferences...even from one music genre to another!). Trouble is, it becomes _*way*_ too addictive!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but there are worse addictions out there - and more expensive ones...(such as flighty women, lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)....CHEERS!...


----------



## Lord Raven

tonykaz said:


> Chord Mojo doesn't have an Amp., but it does have 38mw. output to drive headphones.
> 
> The Amps you lads play with have tons more "color" possibilities than a DAC would offer, which is the point about a tube rolling Amp. ( I think ), you get to change the sound the way a woman changes lip-sticks.   Annnnnnd, we like what cosmetics do, don't we?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Tony I am your fan now  You saving me momey..!


----------



## Lord Raven

Sorry guys, these two posts, I thought I posted in the UD503 forum  OMG I am totally out of control. This DAC thing is taking over me :/
  
 Quote:


lord raven said:


> Verdict     The TEAC UD-503 will slip into any system and play ball with any file you throw at it, but its lack of transparency and rhythmic ability makes it a hard product to recommend – not least when Chord and Audiolab have better-sounding (and more affordable) rivals vying for your cash.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


lord raven said:


> Audiolab M-DAC and Chord Mojo are the competitors of this 1000$ DAC :/ Did not go well, guys!


 
  
 The Audio Sanctuary is selling it cheaper than the people in head-fi classifieds OMG LOL Why the hell is that?  People don't know about that website?
  


lukeap69 said:


> Told ya 'bout Mojo!


 
  
 David, you got to visit the Mojo, it is Mobile Joy  Only thing that keeps me getting is that, it has a battery, and batteries do generate high frequency noise, which is then amplified.
  


davida said:


> Interesting reading, while I haven't heard the UD-503, the UD-501 that I used for a few weeks was quite impressive and to me and it sounded better than a Hugo when used as a DAC, with the matching HA-501 it was almost as good as the MHA-100 which is 4 times the price.  The few times that I've used the Mojo it was a disappointment due to poor synergy with most of the headphones that I tried with it while the Hugo was much more impressive in working great with HD-800, T1 and HE-560.  I've never used the Mojo as a DAC only since I was disappointed with its performance as a DAC/amp to start, maybe I need to revisit this.
> 
> The UD-501 and Liquid Gold/EC Balancing Act pairings were quite spectacular for the few days that I got to spend with them last year but the MHDT Pagoda and AudioGD Master 9 were even better.


----------



## lukeap69

lord raven said:


> The Audio Sanctuary is selling it cheaper than the people in head-fi classifieds OMG LOL Why the hell is that?  People don't know about that website?
> 
> 
> David, you got to visit the Mojo, it is Mobile Joy  Only thing that keeps me getting is that, it has a battery, and batteries do generate high frequency noise, which is then amplified.




LR

I have been using the Mojo for almost a year now and I never heard that high pitch sound you speak about.


----------



## HOWIE13

LR is correct to mention the virtues of Mojo.
  
 Amazon.co.uk are offering Mojo for the same price (£399) as Audio Sanctuary and you have up to 30 days to return to Amazon for a refund if you hear noises or are unhappy in any other way.
  
 Thus far, for me, Mojo has been very quiet, with no noises and on charge continually.


----------



## DavidA

spork67 said:


> HJey @UntilThen - My 5998's passed through Sydney today.
> Might have them by the weekend.
> 
> In other news, I got my STAX gear back from the tech. today.
> ...


 
 I'm in a similar boat but since I got my SR-009 / SRM-007mk2 as a gift when one channel died my friend who gave it to me picked it up and got it repaired for me, only problem is another friend picked them up in Japan since he was there on business and asked to borrow them and has had them for the last 3 months 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  I just haven't had the time to go to the Big Island where he lives to pick them up and it hard for him to drop them off since he's usually here on Oahu for just a few hours to catch connecting flights.  I still have my other Stax setup so not missing them all that much.


----------



## connieflyer

Yes, all the my albums were bought new, no seconds there. They did this and  I new I had to have it, liked the song and really big at the time. Figured it might be worth it's original price someday!
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> @connieflyer  this is a Motown classic. Did you keep it from 1985? Love it. The whole LP is dedicated to this one song.
> 
> Your LP is still so new !!!


----------



## mordy

Hi tonykaz,
  
_"of course smashing tubes is well-ah, a little bit nuts" _- I don't think that I am nuts at all. What else am I supposed to do with a shorted out tube that would have killed my Elise if the Elise did not have protective circuitry?
  
 As h1 rightly points out, the internals in the EL3N are hidden because of the coating on the tubes, and as a service to the forum I decided to reveal the internals, something that may be of interest since it is such a superior tube.
  
 It is of course true that changing tubes changes the sound, but I don't look at it as coloring the sound - I am simply looking for the sound that I like the best. Don't know if it is the most natural, realistic or life-like, but I can tell what I like the best. And to my surprise, within a select group of tubes, there is a strong consensus that these are among the best sounding tubes.
  
 OK - so I tried to be a bit dramatic about smashing the tube, but that's part of the fun of this forum - we learn about all kinds of things closely related to tube rolling, such as cars, fishing, boats, airplanes, sight seeing etc etc......


----------



## connieflyer

Good one @Mordy  If you need a bigger hammer let me know,!  Funny how fragile these tubes are, until you want to break one. I guess it is all in the intent!  Three more days of rain, temps in the fifties, where did summer go?


----------



## connieflyer

With all the expense of the tubes and peripherals I thought about a new spending program.  Looking into getting back to nautical items.  Have been looking at this one fro awhile.http://www.handcraftedmodelships.com/sovereign-of-the-seas-masterpiece-100inch.php
  
 Look at the detail pictures on the right side of the screen, amazing craftmanship


----------



## UntilThen

It looks so real you can sail to Sydney with that ship.
  
 I too do not think of tubes as colouration but a living, breathing organic tone.  Similarly vinyl. It just sounds so real haha. Now will probably start a mad debate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Vinyl + tube amp + headphone is pure ecstasy.


----------



## UntilThen

@MusclePharm where have you been? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Don't remember seeing you post or maybe I've missed it.
  
 Regarding your post ....  http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/13110#post_12897087
  
 ....will address it here. Now a mircowave sound is new to me. Never heard anyone mentioning it. It's most likely your tubes. Get another set of tubes to try out.


----------



## UntilThen

My 'new' listening corner.


----------



## Lord Raven

That DAC though  I sometimes feel I should get it, it was so good  Wish it did DSD hehe
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> My 'new' listening corner.


----------



## MusclePharm

untilthen said:


> @MusclePharm where have you been?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Not a regular poster so I can easily be unnoticed, but if you check my post history you will see I was there.
  
 Oh well, so It's been what? 3 threads since the Elise's fever started? Hehe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well, it already is hot like a microwave, and now it just started sound like one (I wonder where this will end = with my brain melted). I guess I will have to get new tubes then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Any recommendations?


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen could you check those disks I sent and see if you have one of Jane Morgan?  I looked around for it, did not see it.  No I don't want it back if you have it, just wanted to let you know that was the oldest album I had, 1950"s era.  Before that, I was using 78 rpm records!  She had a great voice and the Mono recording still sounded good to me.


----------



## UntilThen

Jane Morgan is here 

Will do a review soon after both my eyes are open.

Are you sure that LP is 1950s. That could be older than me.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Jane Morgan is here
> 
> Will do a review soon after *both my eyes are open.*
> 
> Are you sure that LP is 1950s. *That could be older than me. *


 
 Yeah. You're no spring chicken 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But fear not!!! There's still hope for you.  If nothing else, this will get your eyes open


----------



## UntilThen

Morgan performed for French President Charles de Gaulle, and for five U.S. Presidents: John F. Kennedy, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and George W. Bush.... and UntilThen ... because I'm listening to her LP now. 





  
 This is all about vocals and it's melodious. Accompanying instruments are just that... accompanying and in the background. Her voice is centrestage and she sings beautifully.
  

  
 I like this song. The lyrics is interesting.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Yeah. You're no spring chicken
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hey this song reminds me of another song. Go Liverpool !!! When are you going to win the FA Cup again. Bring back the glory days of Ian Rush.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow @pctazhp  you're taking me back to my childhood. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can still remember this song indeed. Was very young then.


----------



## mordy

Hi CF,
  
 Here is another recording of When the Saints Go Marching In by an authentic New Orleans Band on a 78RPM record played with one of them cactus styli.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hello Arnold,
  
 You might not hear it but the battery powered DAC's are not so quiet. I have read batteries are not entirely noise free, tried to find that article but it is lost in the deep web. 
  
 Quote:


lukeap69 said:


> LR
> 
> I have been using the Mojo for almost a year now and I never heard that high pitch sound you speak about.


 
  
 You guys are going to make me buy a MOJO 
  
 Is there a way to disconnect the battery entirely and use LPS for better results as a desktop DAC?


howie13 said:


> LR is correct to mention the virtues of Mojo.
> 
> Amazon.co.uk are offering Mojo for the same price (£399) as Audio Sanctuary and you have up to 30 days to return to Amazon for a refund if you hear noises or are unhappy in any other way.
> 
> Thus far, for me, Mojo has been very quiet, with no noises and on charge continually.


----------



## Lord Raven

Look at this, guys.
  
 http://headfonics.com/2016/03/the-expressivo-by-feliks-audio/
  
 Expressivo is reviewed as a top end headphone amplifier by headphonics..  Highest rating received, why not Elise?


----------



## connieflyer

wiki  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Morgan


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Look at this, guys.
> 
> http://headfonics.com/2016/03/the-expressivo-by-feliks-audio/
> 
> Expressivo is reviewed as a top end headphone amplifier by headphonics..  Highest rating received, why not Elise?


 
 Because they are saving the best for the last.


----------



## Lord Raven

Just ordered a Mojo  Looks like I need mobile carrying cases for all my headphones now LOL
  
 Don't ask me why I went for, Mobile Joy!!!
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



"MoJo is technically more advanced than Hugo in the digital domain.﻿" Hi-Fi Insider


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Just ordered a Mojo  Looks like I need mobile carrying cases for all my headphones now LOL
> 
> Don't ask me why I went for, Mobile Joy!!!
> 
> ...


 
 Looks like you found your mojo again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 28 reviews on Head-Fi says it's very good. When are you coming downunder again. I want to hear it.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> Looks like you found your mojo again. :etysmile:
> 
> 28 reviews on Head-Fi says it's very good. When are you coming downunder again. I want to hear it.




Thank you  I'm coming soon, with all the tube stash. 

Looks like this time, we both can plug our headphones into the DAC, simultaneously, and A/B headphone SQ lol ETA is 5-7 days  Get rid of NAD and you'll enjoy DSD music hehe


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Not getting rid of the NAD. Lots of good reviews that says it's fun and musical. 
  
 However I'm putting a lot of hours on the Denon TT now. Might consider a cartridge change to get a different tone although the stock cartridge sounds very good. Check out the many happy owwners of the Denon TT on this site. 
  
 http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/denon-dp-300f-belt-driven-turntable.196191/
  
 It just shows that you can get great sound with Elise and gears that do not break your bank balance.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. Mordy,
  
 I thought it was a "fun" thing to see those snaps and because tubes are Amplifiers I'd like to see folks taking a 'sledge' to some of their Solid State stuff. ( Audiophile Sledge-o-matic kind of fun )
  
 Back in the day, we'd cut the tube glass with a Dremel Grinding wheel ( never though of taking the easy way of using a hammer ).
  
 All that said and out of the way, I think you lads are the ones who are onto sumpt'm : you have superb music and superb transducers, what remains is the Amplification device ( which have differing sonic qualities ), you 'could' simply output from the DAC and get the 'raw' (pure) product the Mastering Engineers create. ( DACs have enough output to drive headphones ) 
  
 Tube rolling is the very heart of Audiophile neurosis & psychosis, I love it, it's what I'm chasing, otherwise I could just own Bose or Beats and let it go at that. ( what my wife would recommend ) 
  
 The best part is that the everyday Audiophile is ignoring tubes, in favor of pricy wire, balanced, sizzle boxes, sorbothane, cable trusses, speaker placement, bigger and pricy loudspeakers, super pricy electronics, wave traps, etc,etc,etc. 
  
 Resulting in Tubes being 'Affordable' and available (still), phew, thank goodness the Audiophile masses are ignoring em or they'd be $500 a pop!
  
 I'll join you lads, one of these days, buy a Felikes and a whole bunch of tubes.  
  
 Thanks for writing back,
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## UntilThen

tonykaz said:


> All that said and out of the way, I think you lads are the ones who are onto sumpt'm
> 
> Tube rolling is the very heart of Audiophile neurosis & psychosis, I love it, it's what I'm chasing, otherwise I could just own Bose or Beats and let it go at that. ( what my wife would recommend )
> 
> I'll join you lads, one of these days, buy a Felikes and a whole bunch of tubes.


 
 You're right Tony. We're onto sumpt'm. The day you buy a Felikes is the day you arrive at your audiophile's journey's end.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You'll be glad you didn't listen to your wife and get a Bose or Beats. 
  
 Tube rolling just keeps you calm and sane in an ever changing world.


----------



## UntilThen

Now I know why @DavidA roll headphones. It's fun and you get a dramatic change in tone and sound signature. The PSB M4U 2 has a strong punchy bass and is engaging. 
  
 M4U stands for 'Music for you' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and sounds great on Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

Now that I've more vinyls, I need a better storage. So I bought this classic.


----------



## tonykaz

Journey's End ? , 
  
 I've been involved in music reproduction since the early 1950's, the end of my journey is at Oakwood Cemetery ( I'm already on their waiting list ).  
  
 I'm see'n the next leg to be the Smart phone having competent DACs ( like the new LG V20 with quad DAC chipset ) and bluetooth headsets ( like the LG Tone Platinum by Harmon ) from which the Phone being our access to the big Music Store in the Sky. ( CD being our last hard storage device ) 
  
 I see everyman on the Planet having good access to all the nice high-rez music that gets passed around on this site, the Democratization of Music distribution ( the dream of the internet's early days & Napster ).  
  
 Of course, I still see some lovely folks ( like us ) having Big Home Rigs that perform to higher and nicer levels.  
  
 Tyll will be doing two seminars at this next RMAF, on the future of headphones.   
  
 I think we're about to enter a whole new world of music reproduction, especially with 'this' Format allowing folks to report their discoveries, as you lads have been doing.
  
 The things that seem to remain constants are Sennheiser's HD 580/600/650  & HD 800 variants along with these old Tubes.
  
 Count me in !!!
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## hypnos1

tonykaz said:


> Journey's End ? ,
> 
> I've been involved in music reproduction since the early 1950's, the end of my journey is at Oakwood Cemetery ( I'm already on their waiting list ).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo, T...lots of interesting things do indeed seem to be happening...but hopefully not _too_ good or too _fast_ - have invested a lot of money, time and effort the past 2 years and more to get to this point, LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Our tube "format" certainly has thrown up some interesting discoveries, especially from the enthusiasm shown by so many here at head-fi. And it's really encouraging to see quite a few "youngsters" taking an interest, not just us 'oldies'! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...The problem as I see it is the ever-decreasing supply of our star tubes, and concomitant price hikes!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There just aren't enough "newer production" ones that seem able to match the good old'uns - _tubes_, that is...although some might say us _folks_ also, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 There certainly do appear to be some promising things coming re. headphones, but again, hopefully the current Senns - not to mention my T1s! - will be good for a long while yet...(else my better half will _definitely_ be having more than just a few words on the subject!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 Anyway, be that as it may, I wish you all the best in your own discovery of what we all here have been enjoying for a _long_ while now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CJ


----------



## Spork67

Haven't listened to Hendrix for years.
 Always thought "great guitarist, terrible singer".
 My goodness. Even his vocals sound good with Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> Haven't listened to Hendrix for years.
> Always thought "great guitarist, terrible singer".
> My goodness. Even his vocals sound good with Elise.


 
  
 Hey, Spork...didn't you know _*everything*_ sounds good with Elise LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...


----------



## hypnos1

Well @UntilThen, my Aussie friend, the burning question of the day is...just which base should I use for adapting the Australian EL3NG...a very nice copper one from MrsX, or an also very nice white ceramic one lol?! I thought either would make a nice change from the usual black 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(unfortunately don't have any choice with the EL11s - these need the wider ceramic ones, but hey, still should look OK! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)   :
  

  
 ps. Given they have the *woven* plates, I'm wondering if perhaps they pulled out all the stops with this version...and hence "Gold Series" (my naming!) as opposed to our "Red Series" LOL?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 C'mon @Oskari, our resident tube expert...what do _you_ think? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and no sitting on the fence..._please!!_





...).


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Regarding the bases, I vote for Champagne....
  
 When can we hear about a first listen?


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.hypnos in the good ol UK,   
  
 On tubes:   Tubes have Plates, Grids and Cathodes.  All tubes have em.  Why wouldn't a tube with 3 grids work for Audio? 
  
 or all the other various tubes out there?  Certainly worth exploring this stuff. 
  
 I intend to have an Amp and a few separate adjustable power supplies, all designed to try various tube configurations.
  
 I've met guys at Ham Radio Swap Meets who sell tubes and claim to own Garages full of tubes.  There are scads of these folks who've become the final resting place for all those TV Repair Shops that went out of business.  In my early teens I worked for/at Poly-tek TV repair shop, we had a wall of Tubes as Stock.  I plan to tap into this resource.
  
 I can see the Felikes Amp as the test bed Amp. and a breadboard set of mounted tube sockets.  
  
 All the above will be a part of my big move to an Aluminum House in Sunny Florida. ( along with any and everything I can think of and have time for ).  
  
 Tony in Michigan
  
 ps.  I wonder which of the 3 Pentode Grids will sound ok ?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Regarding the bases, I vote for Champagne....
> 
> When can we hear about a first listen?


 
  
 Hi M...that wouldn't be influenced by your white "bathtubs" at all, would it lol?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(if the vote goes for the white ceramics, will have to get some more as the EL11s have already spoken for them!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but thanks for your input! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 Sad to say, it looks like it's gonna be a good few weeks before I can actually put them all through their paces alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...sob, sob...


----------



## mordy

Hi TK,
  
 I have a Dremel tool that I think does 5,000 rpm - I rarely use it, but next time I need to dissect a tube I'll try it. I still have another shorted out EL3N tube, but emotionally I can't handle smashing it so it is just sitting there as a paddle footed reminder of the vagaries of tube rolling.
  
 Speaking of tube prices, do I have something for you -  it is only $40,249.99 shipped.......
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/100000-PIECES-JAN-5725W-6AS6W-409A-5725-6-2-6AS6-NOS-NIB-500-CASES-USA-MADE-GE-/401100370025?hash=item5d6371f069:g:hsAAAOSw6wRXAdKm
  
 Now, I am not making this up, you could have the same lot for 1/2 price with another $250 for shipping (from the same guy):
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-000-NOS-NIB-TUBES-VALVE-JAN-5725W-6AS6W-409A-5725-6-2-6AS6-GENERAL-ELECT-/272369871778?hash=item3f6a826ba2:g:hsAAAOSw6wRXAdKm
  
 And while we are visiting the stratosphere, here is a spare pair of GEC 6080 for pct or a first, gold grid pair for UT - only $875 for the pair w free shipping.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RARE-TUBES-GEC-GOLD-GRIDS-ENGLAND-MADE-PAIR-6080-ECC230-BLACK-PLATE-3-MICAS-/272352345469?hash=item3f6976fd7d:g:-ewAAOSwHoFXvlh5
  




  
 Is it really gold?


----------



## hypnos1

tonykaz said:


> Mr.hypnos in the good ol UK,
> 
> On tubes:   Tubes have Plates, Grids and Cathodes.  All tubes have em.  Why wouldn't a tube with 3 grids work for Audio?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo Tony...there are without doubt _*countless*_ tube stacks out there just waiting to be discovered - many for $1 a time (at the moment, lol!). But finding the ones that will actually work (well/safely) in a circuit not specifically designed for them is the proverbial needle in a haystack!! I personally count myself extremely lucky to have managed to get the C3g, FDD20, and EL3N drivers to work in the Elise at all...let alone _*extremely*_ well LOL! And so now I'm afraid I must leave it to others to explore completely new ground...my own amp has taken quite enough punishment already! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(But then, as people keep reminding me -  *IT NEVER ENDS!!!). *It sounds like you could just be the (brave!) enthusiast to take on the challenge - but be warned, it can be a VERY bumpy ride indeed!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 Re. the "3 Pentode Grids", I presume you mean the standard type of tube as opposed to multi-plated, in which case only the _control_ grid (g1) carries the signal, g2 and g3 are merely(?!) 'screen' and 'suppressor' grids...CHEERS!...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> ps. Given they have the *woven* plates, I'm wondering if perhaps they pulled out all the stops with this version...and hence "Gold Series" (my naming!) as opposed to our "Red Series" LOL?!! :rolleyes:  ...
> 
> C'mon @Oskari, our resident tube expert...what do _you_ think? :bigsmile_face: ...(and no sitting on the fence..._please!!_ :wink_face: ...).




It's a nice fence to sit on. 

I have no firsthand experience and I'm largely impenetrable to hype. The fence-sitting comes naturally. I must say that there hardly was any hype at the time.

The above means absolutely nothing, of course. The truth shall be revealed by listening.


----------



## pctazhp

Speaking of horses (well someone, somewhere in the world is):


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi TK,
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RARE-TUBES-GEC-GOLD-GRIDS-ENGLAND-MADE-PAIR-6080-ECC230-BLACK-PLATE-3-MICAS-/272352345469?hash=item3f6976fd7d:g:-ewAAOSwHoFXvlh5
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ha))) Our good friend "old_guy_radiola" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I paid $165 for my pair about 6 weeks ago. Pretty impressive internal rate of return


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> It's a nice fence to sit on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Aaahh, my dear O...Yoda shall your name be from this day beyond! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(would expect no less from your good self, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...of course the only _real_ truth can be in the listening...but do you _never_ feel the noose beckoning?!! - Lucky you if indeed never!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Ha))) Our good friend "old_guy_radiola"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 And a very wise investment of $165 too if I may say so, pct! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Aaahh, my dear O...Yoda shall your name be from this day beyond! :wink_face: ...(would expect no less from your good self, lol! :bigsmile_face: ...of course the only _real_ truth can be in the listening...but do you _never_ feel the noose beckoning?!! - Lucky you if indeed never!!!   ...).




No such feelings I have. 


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUgohNKyxak[/VIDEO]


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1  both the brass and white adapter for EL3Ng looks prety good. Brass or black would have been my choice.
  
 Does the EL11 have to use the big white marshmallows that's used in EL3N? I was hoping that's not the case.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> And while we are visiting the stratosphere, here is a spare pair of GEC 6080 for pct or a first, gold grid pair for UT - only $875 for the pair w free shipping.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RARE-TUBES-GEC-GOLD-GRIDS-ENGLAND-MADE-PAIR-6080-ECC230-BLACK-PLATE-3-MICAS-/272352345469?hash=item3f6976fd7d:g:-ewAAOSwHoFXvlh5
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think he meant brass or copper grid. He should see what others are charging for GEC 6080 on eBay. Nowhere as high as that.
  
 This MWT has copper grid too and is GBP130 each. 
  

  
 This does not have copper grid but have GEC stickers at GBP125. These were the ones I enquired a while ago that was GBP170 a pair.


----------



## Oskari

Tubes are great. Music is better.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C1_oNzhU7U[/VIDEO]


----------



## UntilThen

Love Eva Cassidy. Especially this rendition.
  

  
 My tubes of choice these days. Sounds good, stays cool after many hours of operation and looks preeetty ok.


----------



## hpamdr

hypnos1 said:


> Well @UntilThen, my Aussie friend, the burning question of the day is...just which base should I use for adapting the Australian EL3NG...a very nice copper one from MrsX, or an also very nice white ceramic one lol?! I thought either would make a nice change from the usual black
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 If you like EL11 as power, you can also test 6M6G or 6M6GT  but i really prefer valvo EL34 metal base or Russian 1540 / 6P3S-E coin base  (best ratio price/performance). Even one by side is enough with T1 and X20 as DAC. 
 if you like guitar and world music, you can listen on bandcamp : https://dewabudjana.bandcamp.com/album/zentuary-hd-24bit-96khz


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I think he meant brass or copper grid. He should see what others are charging for GEC 6080 on eBay. Nowhere as high as that.
> 
> This MWT has copper grid too and is GBP130 each.


 
 Mine have copper grids. I took the hammer to them to make sure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now:
  

  
 Pre-hammer they sounded GOLDEN


----------



## UntilThen

hpamdr said:


> If you like EL11 as power, you can also test 6M6G or 6M6GT  *but i really prefer valvo EL34 *metal base or Russian 1540 / 6P3S-E coin base  (best ratio price/performance). Even one by side is enough with T1 and X20 as DAC.
> if you like guitar and world music, you can listen on bandcamp : https://dewabudjana.bandcamp.com/album/zentuary-hd-24bit-96khz


 
  
 H1, I did ask you to experiment with EL34 after EL3N but you were busy with the Kois.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Mine have copper grids. I took the hammer to them to make sure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Paul Simon wrote the Sound of Silence listening to copper grids at 3am.


----------



## mordy

Hi hpamdr,
  
 Those Russian 6p3s-e are beam tetrode tubes - how do you use them in the Elise?
  
 Do they need special adapters?
  
 Power or driver tubes?
  
 Can you compare the sound to tubes which we are familiar with?


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 You read my mind why I prefer the gold bases - the white bathtub adapters do not win any beauty contests.....


----------



## connieflyer

I dunno know, I saw a beauty in a white bathtub once..........


----------



## connieflyer

A little rock and roll history, I remember it well, I lived through it, Vietnam era idiots, we got out and loved everyone (well those that agreed with us) kind of like today


----------



## DecentLevi

Interesting developments on your rare vintage tubes, H1. And Hpamdir, nice to see you around again. Are we a no-go for those 300B tubes on the Elise because they would need to run in dual mode?
  
 Anyway I've just gotten the Mimby DAC, and here are my initial impressions - disguised in order to not give any expectation bias to Howie. After posting your initial impressions I will reveal my original take on it, to see how similar our perceptions are.
  

  
 PS - when is yours due in, Howie?


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 In comparison to my Custard V12 (Vanilla 1-2 punch) my Mamby Moody x 2 was slightly less euphoric and less delirious than the benchmark standard McIntosch Apple X MKII red/green. In comparison with the Sh (censored) Valkyrie Wagoner it was more Polished (think Elysee) and less frenzy driven than it's highly filtered voltage source would reveal. The counter intuitive controls were an aesthetic treat to my tactile learning curve tracing, revealing peaks and valleys of my derelict knowledge base.
  
 Pct - I need help....
  
  
 Euphonic Sounds by Scott Joplin:
 
  
 This is a live recording with a lot of background noise.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Interesting developments on your rare vintage tubes, H1. And Hpamdir, nice to see you around again. Are we a no-go for those 300B tubes on the Elise because they would need to run in dual mode?
> 
> Anyway I've just gotten the Mimby DAC, and here are my initial impressions - disguised in order to not give any expectation bias to Howie. After posting your initial impressions I will reveal my original take on it, to see how similar our perceptions are.
> 
> ...


 
  
 LOL That's a fascinating review. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, but appreciate your reasons for not publishing.
  
 Coming home from Spain today and once I find out which of my neighbours has my Mimby I'll start my listening. I've also got the NAD waiting for me at a local pick up location so will need a little time to assess these two. I've read burn in is required though. How long did you burn in your Mimby for?


>


----------



## hpamdr

You can use 6p3s-e as power tube as any pentode. You need an adapter as the one for EL11 but  not the same pinout. 
 I like the sound as it does not add too much coloration when driver are 6N7G 6N7GT and match quite well the K701 and T1.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1  both the brass and white adapter for EL3Ng looks prety good. Brass or black would have been my choice.
> 
> Does the EL11 have to use the big white marshmallows that's used in EL3N? I was hoping that's not the case.


 
  
 Looks like _brass_ (although described as _copper!_) will be the winner for the EL3NG...(just as well, as I've got TEN of 'em!! - bases, that is!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 But will have to be the (slightly) larger whites for the EL11s...thankfully nothing like the "bathtub" "marshmallows" LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   :
  

  
  


hpamdr said:


> If you like EL11 as power, you can also test 6M6G or 6M6GT  but i really prefer valvo EL34 metal base or Russian 1540 / 6P3S-E coin base  (best ratio price/performance). Even one by side is enough with T1 and X20 as DAC.
> if you like guitar and world music, you can listen on bandcamp : https://dewabudjana.bandcamp.com/album/zentuary-hd-24bit-96khz


 
  
 Hi hpamdr....long time no hear! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Will be using them as drivers, not power...unless further down the road I venture into dual-adapter territory for them and/or the EL3N!!
  
 So, the EL34 works OK in Elise?...interesting. But am really happy with my GEC/Osrams in the power seat, so will pass on that one...(and the best NOS EL34s also seem to be VERY expensive now! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  


untilthen said:


> H1, I did ask you to experiment with EL34 after EL3N but you were busy with the Kois.


 
  
 Yeah...those darned fishes lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 But as above, have drawn the line at the powers, really...perhaps hpamdr will give us all the details?!


----------



## UntilThen

How did white marshmallows becomes bathtubs?!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It's ok @hypnos1  I'm kinda saturated with tubes. One can be more than happy with the many variants of 6as7 6080 5998 7236.


----------



## hpamdr

hypnos1 said:


> Hi hpamdr....long time no hear!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 i was far from home for long time and Elise is not really a travel amp so I missed her so much... 
  
 GEC/OSRAM 6AS7G (and 6080) are really great and pairs with more cans and source than single penthode/triode in output socket !

 6M6G or 6M6GT same pinout as EL34 but closer to EL11 can be used as driver like EL3N or EL11 Single triode by socket.
  
 About the Adapter nothing really special   this is a proposed scheme.
  

  
  
  
 for 3+4 and 8+1 use plain copper 1mm or better. For  3/6 and 2/5 braid the wire to the solid junction to maximize contact.
  
 //Edited (the image was not uploaqded)


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> You read my mind why I prefer the gold bases - the white bathtub adapters do not win any beauty contests.....


 
  
 Ah mordy...when you mentioned "Champagne", I thought you meant _*white*_ wine Champers, not the golden hue _colour_ lol! So I think you and UT have pretty well confirmed my own suspicions as to which to use on the EL3NG...(mind you, these white ceramic bases are a zillion times prettier than the "bathtubs"...shame they don't have gold-plated pins though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


untilthen said:


> How did white marshmallows becomes bathtubs?!?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...ask mordy about "bathtubs" lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(can't remember if it was he who in fact _first_ called 'em that! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 And yeah, I hear you re. the powers...shame the good, old NOS EL34s are so darned expensive now, else I _might_ possibly have been tempted!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi DL,
> 
> In comparison to my Custard V12 (Vanilla 1-2 punch) my Mamby Moody x 2 was slightly less euphoric and less delirious than the benchmark standard McIntosch Apple X MKII red/green. In comparison with the Sh (censored) Valkyrie Wagoner it was more Polished (think Elysee) and less frenzy driven than it's highly filtered voltage source would reveal. The counter intuitive controls were an aesthetic treat to my tactile learning curve tracing, revealing peaks and valleys of my derelict knowledge base.
> 
> Pct - I need help....


 
 Mordy:  I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about, but I'm always happy to help


----------



## mordy

You are right pct,
  
 I decided to write a review that was as unintelligible as DL's camouflaged review as a satirical joke - it really was not meant to make any sense but still sounding pseudo-factual.
  
 Maybe it lost something in the translation....
  
 BTW, when r u going to tell us what Predicament Arizona Head Phones (pctazhp) means?


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> You are right pct,
> 
> I decided to write a review that was as unintelligible as DL's camouflaged review as a satirical joke - it really was not meant to make any sense but still sounding pseudo-factual.
> 
> ...


 
 Got it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  And will let you know as soon as I figure out what it means


----------



## connieflyer

Oh noooo! @mordy,I thought that was a very sensible review and understood it completely, I guess that means,  my mind is almost gone, or at least to another dimension.
  
@hypnos1 perhaps you could also review my favorite tube of all time, still have one out in the shed somewhere..  
  
  
 APS-20 radar, magnetron


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Oh noooo! @mordy,I thought that was a very sensible review and understood it completely, I guess that means,  my mind is almost gone, or at least to another dimension.
> 
> @hypnos1 perhaps you could also review my favorite tube of all time, still have one out in the shed somewhere..
> 
> ...


 
  
 ???????!!!!!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> connieflyer said:
> 
> 
> > Oh noooo! @mordy,I thought that was a very sensible review and understood it completely, I guess that means,  my mind is almost gone, or at least to another dimension.
> ...


 

 Looks like a magnetron tube to me. Maybe you can make a 100,000 watt microwave oven modulated with music.


----------



## connieflyer

Need to put the leads in an oil bath to keep the tube from shorting out!


----------



## 2359glenn

No fun if the cathode is under 20,000 volts.
  
 I used to work on 170,000 watt radar fun.
  
 ANSPS-55


----------



## connieflyer

Changing a magnetron at altitude, with the aircraft bouncing along in the air was real fun.  Almost as much fun as adjusting the negative and positive control boards sitting under neath the console trying to center the sweep on the screen, air pocket, screwdriver metal of course, would slip off one side or the other and you would end up ricocheting back and forth!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Changing a magnetron at altitude, with the aircraft bouncing along in the air was real fun.  Almost as much fun as adjusting the negative and positive control boards sitting under neath the console trying to center the sweep on the screen, air pocket, screwdriver metal of course, would slip off one side or the other and you would end up ricocheting back and forth!


 
 Sounds almost as difficult as plugging my Monk earbuds into my Samsung S7 while bouncing along on JetBlue. That's the highest layer of listening experience I have ever had. But I'm negotiating with a couple of airlines to run an extension cord back to my seat to accommodate my Bimby and Elise.


----------



## pctazhp

For @UntilThen and @Spork67:


----------



## mordy

Here is another, very different version of Waltzing Matilda by a jazz band from Down Under:
  
 
  
 "*Waltzing Matilda*" is Australia's best-known bush ballad, and has been described as the country's "unofficial national anthem". The title was Australian slang for travelling on foot (*waltzing*, derived from the German auf der Walz) with one's belongings in a "*matilda*" (swag) slung over one's back.
  
_Waltzing Matilda_ is the act of carrying a 'swag' and wandering aimlessly through the outback of Australia, looking for work as the need arose.
  
 The lyrics to _Waltzing Matilda_ were written in 1895 by Banjo Paterson, an Australian bush poet, while holidaying on a huge cattle and sheep station (ranch) in the Australian Outback.
  
 So now you know.....


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm really enjoying the performance of these Mullard 6080 power tubes on the Elise with my new Mimby DAC. Several meticulous A/B comparisons of it to my rebranded Bendix 6080 tubes reveals the Mullards have somewhat better clarity and sharper dynamics - though they are still quite colored - in the 'fun' / saturated way though. They also seem to have slightly better P.R.A.T., making them good for the likes of electronic music for one; yet the Bendix can be better for a more tonally correct, weighty / full bodied presentation.
  

  
 They 'shine' best with two of the silicone tube dampers (focuses the imaging & dynamics IMO). This is the large size, and while they are a tight fit, they seem to to refine the sound out of 6080 tubes the best compared to the larger sizes such as XL. And these Mullard's seem to wake up even more after around 50 hours burn-in.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Changing a magnetron at altitude, with the aircraft bouncing along in the air was real fun.  Almost as much fun as adjusting the negative and positive control boards sitting under neath the console trying to center the sweep on the screen, air pocket, screwdriver metal of course, would slip off one side or the other and you would end up ricocheting back and forth!


 
  
 Always suspected you might just have had _one_ screw loose at some time, my dear friend!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...


----------



## UntilThen

It is for good reasons I've long said that the Mullard 6080 is amongst the awesome foursome of power tubes in my arsenal. The other 3 being 5998, 7236 and Chatham 6AS7G.
  
 Now if you excuse me, I need some soothing music, after watching 13 episodes of WW2 in colour.


----------



## connieflyer

Thought I would share a little Sunday Morning humor, old guys will get this!


----------



## whirlwind

connieflyer said:


> Thought I would share a little Sunday Morning humor, old guys will get this!


 
 Ha ha.....I can relate


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Thought I would share a little Sunday Morning humor, old guys will get this!


 
  
 Gee THANKS cf...I still get REAL upset - must mean I'm still just a Spring chicken, eh?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 ...


----------



## mordy

Speaking of old age, (and I am approaching this topic with trepidation) does anybody have experience with hearing aids?
  
 I had my hearing tested, and I have the normal high frequency fall-off that happens as you age. With music I can crank up the volume, and luckily most music occurs in the frequency range of 35-10,000 Hz so i don't think that I have too much of a deficit listening to music since I can hear up to maybe 12,000 - 13, 000 Hz.
  
 The problems I have is that at times it is hard for me to hear clearly what people are saying. An example would be walking outside with a grandchild who is happily chatting away, but I cannot hear clearly what he/she is saying. Or worse, my wife tells me something from the next room, and I have to ask her to repeat it.....
  
 Any thoughts?


----------



## louisxiawei

Hi gents,
  
 Hope you have had a nice weekend so far.  
  
 After 2 weeks of Elise's listening. I must say Elise brings a lot of joy to me. But, (yes there is a but), I begin to demand more again. I honestly think I'm a man not get satisfied for long.
  
 I'm using Mullard 6080WA and Tung-sol 6SN7 for Elise at the moment. The sound is obviously lusher and more musical with my ARCAM irDAC but I find it lost some sonic and transparent features in some genre of music like rock and electronic. For me, the sound begins to lose control of some big dynamic moment in rock music, too fleshy, meaty and over-saturated for me. Although the 3D feeling is stronger, I find the sound is not quite refined. Then I decided to upgrade my DAC to give Elise a more worthy combo.
  
 A few days ago, I upgraded my ARCAM irDAC to the DAC of another higher league: Exasound E12. Now the sound is more organic, refined, smooth for me due to the E12. But again, the musical character I'm pursuing doesn't get to the point I'm satisfied. Dynamic in some orchestral pieces is too sonic for me. Now I'm in a dilemma. Either being too fleshy with Arcam irDAC or being sonic again with exasound E12. Now I think it's the time to think about tuning the sound by tube rolling since I already did a proper DAC upgrade.  
  
 If I want to tune the sound into more lush and warm sound yet keep all the sonic, clarity, high-speed dynamic features, which tubes I should go for? I'm going to roll some EL3N with 6080WA next week as UT recommends. @UntilThen I'm also open to other suggestions if someone has the similar experience.
  
 P.S I also find that if I leave Elise running for over 2 hours, then listen again, the sound will get more softened and musical. As Elise claims that tube should be working fully after 15 minutes and Elise should be after 5 minutes. But my personal experience is two hours. Any similar experience like me or my ears are just being ridiculously picky? 
  
 Cheers,
 Wei


----------



## DecentLevi

Louis, maybe you can try a power regenerator - be the 2nd one to try one with the Elise. H1 reported a staggering improvement with his, but maybe try another type than his, and though you're in the 230v region maybe you can try one with dual 110/230v input so that maybe one of us in North America can benefit from those findings too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I agree the Mullard 6080 are somewhat musical / euphonic. I have those and am keen to get the top-ranked GEC or Chatham / Osram or whatever they're called. Would somebody please describe the various aspects of their sound signature?


----------



## mordy

Hi l,
  
 You will have to experiment with different tube combinations to find the sound that pleases you. For me the obvious choice for driver tubes is the EL3N - then you have to try different power tubes to see what you like the best.
  
 For me the EL3N with the RCA 6080 from the late 50's early 60's work beautifully, or, for a little more analytical presentation the TS 7236. However, everything depends on your equipment and taste. One thing is sure, with the Elise you will be able to find what you want......
  
 Happy tube rolling!


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> So now you know.....




Thanks, Mordy! 

I have a question for you. What do you think this is?


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> If I want to tune the sound into more lush and warm sound yet keep all the sonic, clarity, high-speed dynamic features, which tubes I should go for? I'm going to roll some EL3N with 6080WA next week as UT recommends. @UntilThen I'm also open to other suggestions if someone has the similar experience.


 
 We need a reference point, so we'll go back to stock tubes. Tung Sol 6SN7gtb re-issue and Svetlana 6H13C gives a warm and lush sound with a healthy bass quantity but is a bit recessed with details. Of course this depends on the headphones used. Just take for instance, using stock HD650 and Beyer T1 G1. Those 2 headphones are very contrasting and will sound different with stock tubes. We've not even factor in in your source, which for most people would be the DAC or some, the turntable and cartridge.
  
 Replacing Svetlana 6H13C with Mullard 6080 will produce a sharper and brighter sound. You'll hear more details but you'll lose some warm and lushness. Now replace the Mullard 6080 with Chatham 6AS7G will dial back some of the lushness and warm you're seeking. 5998 isn't too warm or lush but has energy in abundance and has more lushness than the Mullard 6080. 7236 is a leaner, tighter version of 5998.
  
 Finally if you replace the stock 6SN7 with EL3N or ECC31, you'll get not just a warmer and lusher tone. You'll also get a different perspective of the musicians. You're closer to them and the sound will seem to hit you like a wall of sound.
  
 ExaSound E12 uses ES9018S DAC chip, so I'm not surprise, you are now wanting more warm and lushness.
  
 Good luck with the tube rolling and don't tune too much. Find a compromise and be happy with it and just enjoy the music. Nothing's perfect and that applies to our ears too.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi again, I mentioned about GEC earlier and now I realise that Chatham 6AS7G is probably a different type altogether than the GECs. I'm actually ready to buy these holy grails soon, but of course that term depends on how well the sound sig. matches your preferences. So if anybody could help me out with some of these, that would be very helpful:
  
 What are the differences in sound of the straight-form GEC 6080 and the ST / 'Coke bottle' shaped GEC 6AS7G?
  
 How would you describe the various aspects of each, such as dynamics, clarity, tonality, etc.?
  
 And what would be any differences in sound from the GECs to the Chatham 6AS7G and TS 7236?
  
 Thanks...


----------



## louisxiawei

decentlevi said:


> Hi again, I mentioned about GEC earlier and now I realise that Chatham 6AS7G is probably a different type altogether than the GECs. I'm actually ready to buy these holy grails soon, but of course that term depends on how well the sound sig. matches your preferences. So if anybody could help me out with some of these, that would be very helpful:
> 
> What are the differences in sound of the straight-form GEC 6080 and the ST / 'Coke bottle' shaped GEC 6AS7G?
> 
> ...


 
 Edited:
  
*Sorry, I mid-read your question: you are asking GEC 6080 vs GEC 6AS7G.*
 Some Chinese sellers told me curved bottom GEC 6AS7Gs sounds better in the midrange and high than straight-form version while some Uk sellers told me curved one are just different from the aesthetic aspect and the reason why is more expensive than straight-form is they are more desirable from appearance on the market. 
  
 Will be good to know anyone did a comparison between two version of them in this thread.


----------



## DecentLevi

Indeed that would be helpful to know a comparison between straight / curved GEC tubes - and I'm looking forward to any more words about differences between the two, even if it's heresay. Along with any description of the sound.
  
 Also @HOWIE13 did you get the chance to try your new DAC's yet?


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Edited:
> 
> *Sorry, I mid-read your question: you are asking GEC 6080 vs GEC 6AS7G.*
> Some Chinese sellers told me curved bottom GEC 6AS7Gs sounds better in the midrange and high than straight-form version while some Uk sellers told me curved one are just different from the aesthetic aspect and the reason why is more expensive than straight-form is they are more desirable from appearance on the market.
> ...


 
 This all can get a little confusing. The GEC 6AS7Gs have the coke bottle glass. I don't know if there is a straight bottom AND curved bottom version. @hypnos1 is the expert on the GEC 6AS7Gs. The GEC 6080 is a straight glass tube with straight bottom that has the same shape as all other 6080s. I'm almost certain no one on the thread has been able to do a comparison between the GEC 6AS7G and GEC 6080. 
  
 I have the 6080 version and it mates great with EL3N drivers. Unfortunately, I've almost entirely given up tube rolling so I can't provide an informed comparison of the 6080 to my Chatham 6AS7Gs which I haven't listened to in a long time. I will say that my 5998s seem to pair better with my Sylvania 6SN7-GTW drivers than with the EL3Ns. I prefer the EL3N/GEC6080 combo, but for the last few days I've been listening to Sylvania/5998 combo and it is quite wonderful. For me, both combos really get it "right" and represent the summit (a word from the earlier days of the other thread) of Elise performance for me. The EL3N/6080 combo is just a little more "organic" than the Sylvania/5998 combo.
  
 As @UntilThen has wisely pointed out, so much depends on source, headphone and preference. 
  
 Edit:  I guess I should point out that the GEC 6AS7Gs are almost impossible to find at this point, and equally impossible to pay for if they are found.


----------



## louisxiawei

pctazhp said:


> This all can get a little confusing. The GEC 6AS7Gs have the coke bottle glass. I don't know if there is a straight bottom AND curved bottom version. @hypnos1 is the expert on the GEC 6AS7Gs. The GEC 6080 is a straight glass tube with straight bottom that has the same shape as all other 6080s. I'm almost certain no one on the thread has been able to do a comparison between the GEC 6AS7G and GEC 6080.
> 
> I have the 6080 version and it mates great with EL3N drivers. Unfortunately, I've almost entirely given up tube rolling so I can't provide an informed comparison of the 6080 to my Chatham 6AS7Gs which I haven't listened to in a long time. I will say that my 5998s seem to pair better with my Sylvania 6SN7-GTW drivers than with the EL3Ns. I prefer the EL3N/GEC6080 combo, but for the last few days I've been listening to Sylvania/5998 combo and it is quite wonderful. For me, both combos really get it "right" and represent the summit (a word from the earlier days of the other thread) of Elise performance for me. The EL3N/6080 combo is just a little more "organic" than the Sylvania/5998 combo.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry for the confusing @pctazhp. I was referring to the bottom type as pictures shown below. Impossible to find GEC 6AS7G? Nah. Difficult to find them? Also no. Difficult to find a curved bottom with good price, yes!
  
 Personally, I can accept a curved pair of GEC 6AS7G at £400. The maximum limit I can handle. If I spend my money on tubes over the value of the Elise, I might just think to purchase a better amp to deserve those tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

Having finally suffered from total and complete brain meltdown from trying to distinguish and describe various tube combinations or individual tubes, but being someone who values precision in language and one who believes words matter, I have developed new nomenclature. If a particular tube or combo is described as "sounding good" it means it sounds good. If it is described as "sounding not so good" it means it sounds not so good.
  
 I will accept in advance your congratulations and gratitude for this contribution


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Gee THANKS cf...I still get REAL upset - must mean I'm still just a Spring chicken, eh?! :wink_face: :confused_face_2: ...






(Sorry. )


----------



## UntilThen

^^ that's really funny.


----------



## UntilThen

OMG @HeatFan12 finally came back !!! I've been wanting to sell you Elise for one whole year. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It ain't too late....


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> If a particular tube or combo is described as "sounding good" it means it sounds good. If it is described as "sounding not so good" it means it sounds not so good.


 
 Pct, you forgot what Shakespeare said...
  
 There is nothing either good or bad
 but thinking makes it so.
  
 William Shakespeare.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Pct, you forgot what Shakespeare said...
> 
> There is nothing either good or bad
> but thinking makes it so.
> ...


 
 I've even forgotten who William Shakespeare is. Did he write:


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I've even forgotten who William Shakespeare is. Did he write:


 
 I've just listened to this with one of my vintage Valvo C3G and 5998 tubes. How do you unlisten something? My tubes and I demand back 2 mins of our time.


----------



## UntilThen

Now this is a real song. Billy narrated over 100 headline events in machine gun rapid fire speed.
  

  
Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio 
Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, Television 
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe 

Rosenbergs, H-Bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom 
Brando, The King And I, and The Catcher In The Rye 
Eisenhower, Vaccine, England's got a new queen 
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana goodbye 
  
 World events flash before my eyes.


----------



## UntilThen

I can't resist this so I bought it. Slotted graphite plates Bendix don't come by easily. Now I'll have to pair it with something else until another one comes along. Or use it in my Darkvoice 336se.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> I can't resist this so I bought it. Slotted graphite plates Bendix don't come by easily. Now I'll have to pair it with something else until another one comes along. Or use it in my Darkvoice 336se.


 
 Great find sir.....keep your eyes peeled and you will eventually find a match


----------



## connieflyer

Okay rise and shine, just remembered this little number, wish I could still do it.....


----------



## connieflyer

Piano on speed drugs


----------



## pctazhp

CF:  You are in much too good a mood this morning !!!


----------



## connieflyer

Seems like only yesterday I was young!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Seems like only yesterday I was young!


 
 It was


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Indeed that would be helpful to know a comparison between straight / curved GEC tubes - and I'm looking forward to any more words about differences between the two, even if it's heresay. Along with any description of the sound.
> 
> Also @HOWIE13 did you get the chance to try your new DAC's yet?


 
  
 Just an initial impression, not yet burned in, but Mimby is as good as they say it is, for me in my set up.
 Neutral, with just a touch of upper mid emphasis, giving great imaging, and the soundstage, while not huge, is reasonably wide and high. Bass is realistic, not bloated or forced, allowing the music to flow easily, without Mimby ever intruding.
  
 Overall, sounds very musical and engaging, with very good pace and rhythm. Clean, clear and sweet with HD600, DT880 and K712. Tested with Elise 6 pack, and Espressivo, EL3N powers, Mullard ECC88 Drivers. I also connected the headphones directly to the outputs of Mimby, without using an amplifier, with similar results, amplifier just goes louder, of course.
  
 Mojo sounds almost identical, strangely enough- maybe not quite the inner detail, but perhaps a bit more depth to the sound. Both excellent with neither sounding digitally 'processed'.
 Mojo is more expensive, but you do get a good headphone amp ( two outputs, actually) and it's transportable, being battery powered. Both great value depending on whether you want just a DAC or a DAC/Amp.
  
 Thanks for your patience, DL, I'll be interested in your own assessment, though I don't know that other amp you're comparing with.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Just an initial impression, not yet burned in, but Mimby is as good as they say it is, for me in my set up.
> Neutral, with just a touch of upper mid emphasis, giving great imaging, and the soundstage, while not huge, is reasonably wide and high. Bass is realistic, not bloated or forced, allowing the music to flow easily, without Mimby ever intruding.
> 
> *Overall, sounds very musical and engaging, with very good pace and rhythm. *Clean, clear and sweet with HD600, DT880 and K712. Tested with Elise 6 pack, and Espressivo, EL3N powers, Mullard ECC88 Drivers. I also connected the headphones directly to the outputs of Mimby, without using an amplifier, with similar results, amplifier just goes louder, of course.
> ...


 
  
 Howie: That is very consistent with my experience with the Bimby. For some reason, Schiit DACs don't seem to generate much enthusiasm on this thread so it's nice to see your comments.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> I can't resist this so I bought it. Slotted graphite plates Bendix don't come by easily. Now I'll have to pair it with something else until another one comes along. Or use it in my Darkvoice 336se.


 
  
  
 i saw that ... thought about bidding ... but the pix didn't show the slots ... so i demurred.
 mine is more used but still quite good (i think -- my tester has faulty 6v operation so i can't get any useful readings) ... & like you, i have a single.  double halo getters
  

  
 maybe we can work out some sleazy deal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ??? 
  
 <edit>  btw, that is not a crack below the slot but a groove cut into the plate --- on the other side, the plate is inverted, so the groove is at the top.  no idea if it's an artifact of the production process or a necessary design feature.


----------



## geetarman49

pctazhp said:


> CF:  You are in much too good a mood this morning !!!


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> I can't resist this so I bought it. Slotted graphite plates Bendix don't come by easily. Now I'll have to pair it with something else until another one comes along. Or use it in my Darkvoice 336se.


 
 UT don't fret it at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 because my latest discovery is that in fact, one Bendix 6080 sounds better than two. I find it's pairing with Mullard 6080 to be extraordinary - perhaps my best ever combo yet. And I'm sure other good pairings could be had too


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> Just an initial impression, not yet burned in, but Mimby is as good as they say it is, for me in my set up.
> Neutral, with just a touch of upper mid emphasis, giving great imaging, and the soundstage, while not huge, is reasonably wide and high. Bass is realistic, not bloated or forced, allowing the music to flow easily, without Mimby ever intruding.
> 
> Overall, sounds very musical and engaging, with very good pace and rhythm. Clean, clear and sweet with HD600, DT880 and K712. Tested with Elise 6 pack, and Espressivo, EL3N powers, Mullard ECC88 Drivers. I also connected the headphones directly to the outputs of Mimby, without using an amplifier, with similar results, amplifier just goes louder, of course.
> ...


 
  
 Quite interesting - seems we do share a nearly identical hearing / sound preferences. OK so finally, here is the 'uncensored' original version of my initial impressions of the Mimby here (straight out of box on the first day)
  
 "My initial impressions of the Mimby (Modi 2 multibit) DAC:
  
 Compared to my Gustard X12, it’s a big step up! Markedly improved transient response (slam of the dynamics), more ‘focued’ imaging, more detailed, and a superb realism. Everything sounds absolutely engulfing / enveloping, tonally perfect, crisp, yet clear and clean as a whistle. Yet seems slightly musical and/or euphonic. Compared to the Bimby at twice the price, this has better dynamics / clarity and slightly less euphonic, while the Bimby has slightly better imaging and soundstage.
  
 Sounds like a $1,000+ DAC, all crammed into a tiny little box for several hundred! Absolutely the most staggering price to performance of a DAC made to date. Only downside yet is soundstage seems slightly small. And this is only without burn-in and using mid-tier tubes!"
  
  
 Now here's this Chatham 6080 ST tube that I found on eBay. It looks like an ST version of Bendix 6080 and is a pristine looking pair, if anyone's interested:
*CARBON PLATE NOS NIB PAIR 6336A CHATHAM VACUUM TUBES TUNGSOL USA MADE 6080 421A*

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/222231620699


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> UT don't fret it at all
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Chuckle chuckle chuckle. Will start a whole new trend pairing different power tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can try it but I'm a symetrical guy. So I'm waiting on geetarman to sell me his for half the price.
  
 That Chatham 6336A should not be used in Elise. It's 5A each. 2 of those would be 10A. That will turn your tube amp into a smoking Elise.


----------



## hpamdr

decentlevi said:


> Now here's this Chatham 6080 ST tube that I found on eBay. It looks like an ST version of Bendix 6080 and is a pristine looking pair, if anyone's interested:
> *CARBON PLATE NOS NIB PAIR 6336A CHATHAM VACUUM TUBES TUNGSOL USA MADE 6080 421A*
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/222231620699


 
  
 The 6336A is a dual 6080 into a single bottle (heating current is 5A for 6.3V), do not try to plug to in the Elise 
 This is anyhow a good industrial tube and some glenn amp owner use it !


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm done with buying for now. Going to save up for a good pair of cans for Christmas. Need to audition.


----------



## DecentLevi

Here's a quote about Genalax 6AS7GA, which is supposedly the same as the holy grail bottle shaped GEC's
  

  
"Well, let’s talk Genalex now. This is considered to be the best of the best 6AS7G tubes, and it sure it, but…

The tube sounds very nice – sound signature is very similar to Mullard 6080, but a bit more air, a bit more details, but that is at the cost of warmth and lusciousness. As Nick stated in his review above – it’s clinical. I personally like warmth of Mullards and to me the tubes sounded great, but not my favorite. I compared it to Tung-Sol 5998 and WE 421A. Western Electric was a clear winner.

Still a lovely tube that is disappearing fast and will soon be a thing of the past."

Not sure as to why, but it says Western Electric 421A are a clear winner over the Genalex tubes similar to GEC's. And here they are for only around $100 / pair. Would this be recommended for the Elise? Several types avail. here, including 6336A which seems to be compatible with 5998

 

For my introduction to the GEC sound, I'll be getting these RCA 6AS7G tubes that are the 'dryer' American version, appearing very similar to the ultra rare ST-shaped GEC's, but for only $25


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> [COLOR=000000]Not sure as to why, but it says Western Electric 421A are a clear winner over the Genalex tubes similar to GEC's. And here they are for only around $100 / pair. Would this be recommended for the Elise? Several types avail. here, including 6336A which seems to be compatible with 5998[/color]




Please open your eyes and see.

Cetron 6336A ≠ WE 421A.

Was the 6336A recommended for the Elise a couple of posts ago?

A real WE 421A will work fine.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> Chuckle chuckle chuckle. Will start a whole new trend pairing different power tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 let's take this to pm so as not to sully this wonderful thread with our sleazy  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 deals ...  heheheh.


----------



## DecentLevi

Takes me a while to learn new words / numbers. So do you mean 6336A is different from the 421A, so only the 421's would work for the Elise?


----------



## whirlwind

Each 6336 A/B tube will need 5 amps...so two tubes you will need 10 amps.


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> Takes me a while to learn new words / numbers. So do you mean 6336A is different from the 421A, so only the 421's would work for the Elise?




The 421A and the 5998 are the same (or at least practically the same). They will work. The 6336A will fry your amp.


----------



## UntilThen

You can find out a tube's data by doing a search. such as '6336A tube data'. You'll find the voltage and current requirements. 
  
 6336A will not work. WE421A will work in Elise.
  
 Those Western Electric WE421A prices are crazy now. They are supposed to be the premium version of 5998 but are they?
  
 Let's see what previous Head-fiers have to say about them.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/506133/visual-evidence-tung-sol-5998-western-electric-421


----------



## geetarman49

& as previously mentioned, 10A = elise is smokin'  (& not good smoke either).
  
 fyi:   we421a:  long discourse, read it all ---  http://www.head-fi.org/t/506133/visual-evidence-tung-sol-5998-western-electric-421
  
 <edit>  oops, UT beat me to it ... again.


----------



## connieflyer

You have to be very careful when using ebay, things happen unexpectedly....


----------



## connieflyer

Here is one just for @pctazhp


----------



## connieflyer

Looking through my tubes, found a pair I had not tried yet. @UntilThen sent me a pair of RCA 6n7's along with the Joy bringers and I had not tried the rca.  Paired these with the 5998's and I am quite impressed. A nice full, well balanced sound. A very open, detailed sound, the sound stage is quite good as well.  The El3n 6 pack has been my go to set, but these are very enjoyable. I will let these settle in for awhile, but I am quite pleased.


----------



## UntilThen

CF, they are the RCA 6N7GT. Brand new except for a few hours of play while trying it out. A picture taken when I had them. Enjoy.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You can find out a tube's data by doing a search. such as '6336A tube data'. You'll find the voltage and current requirements.
> 
> 6336A will not work. WE421A will work in Elise.
> 
> ...


 
 Well that certainly cleared up everything


----------



## connieflyer

You know, I have the same pair!!!  They now have more than a few hours on them!  And as ordered I am enjoying them.  It brings a new sublty to 50's and 60's music!  Speaking of which, after 5 hours under these cans, I think I may need THE can!  Two more cuts and then take the dog out and back at till sleep take over.  This a very good combo, glad I remembered I had them.  Had used the Visseau before and really liked them as well. But these RCA's and 5998's are really taking the music to a new level. Before I stopped using my turntables, I recorded most of my 45's to analog tape 15 ips, and later transferred it to digital before selling all the tape equipment and the recordings sound quite good for what they are. Thanks again UT, have gotten a lot of enjoyment from the tubes you sent. Much appreciated.
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> CF, they are the RCA 6N7GT. Brand new except for a few hours of play while trying it out. A picture taken when I had them. Enjoy.
> 
> ..


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  You're most welcome. I should thank you for your lovely LPs.
  
 This just arrived. Says designed and engineered in USA. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now I have to assemble it.


----------



## richdytch

Hi folks. After having to move my Topping tripath amplifier into another room, I wound up buying one of these for my main system - as a daytime high-efficiency amp: 
  
 http://www.templeaudio.net/bantamgold.html
  
 It's turning out to be fairly astonishing. My speakers aren't the most efficient, but its 25 watts seem to be more than enough. Its distortion measurements are waaaayy lower than my Quad 909, and sadly the Quad simply can't compare in terms of quality. 
  
 The upshot of this is that after using it as a power amp, with the Elise as preamp, I'm now having to radically re-assess what I thought I knew about my collection of tubes. The combination I've settled on for now is Mullard 6080 with EL3N - a combination which with the Quad as a poweramp felt muddy, flat and a bit starchy. It's now sounding alive, sweet and airy.  Wonderful. 
  
 Also, it's completely eradicated the noise problem I was having with the Elise/Quad combo, which is a brilliant thing. I can't recommend the Bantam Gold enough for anyone looking for a cheap power amp.  Sounded a bit rough straight out of the box, but over the last 5 days has really come alive. Turns out these need to be left switched on all the time - not a problem because they consume almost no power when they're not working - and not a lot more when they are. 90% efficient. 
  
 If anything makes me get rid of the Bantam, it'll only be to upgrade to their 40W monoblocks. 
  
 Does anyone want to buy a Quad 909?  
  
 Rich


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> @connieflyer  You're most welcome. I should thank you for your lovely LPs.
> 
> This just arrived.* Says designed and engineered in USA*.
> 
> ...


 
 I wonder how many of our PhD's it took to accomplish that.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen you are very welcome to the lp's I am glad I was able to connect with someone that would enjoy them.


----------



## connieflyer

Americana morning...@pctazhp


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I wonder how many of our PhD's it took to accomplish that.


 
 It took just one Enstein,  There's even an instruction manual inside the box to show you how to put it together. Anyone who can use a screwdriver should be able to assemble it. Just like the Crack. Anyone who can solder can build a Crack.


----------



## connieflyer

Looks good you must have bought the upgraded model if it had instructions! Thanks for sharing, nice to see decent music displayed!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Americana morning...@pctazhp


 
 You have to spin something more current. Like this Frank Sinatra version. Now they are arguing over who sang this. Some says it's Perry Como. Others say it's Frank Sinatra. What do you think? Is it Perry Sinatra or Frank Como?


----------



## connieflyer

Definetly Perry Como., voice is softer, Franks had a harder edge to it.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Americana morning...@pctazhp




 OH WOW!! I haven't thought of that song since high school))) And absolutely loved those 45's. It's been downhill ever since. I had a box of them for years, but one day up near Salinas, Lord, I let let it slip away.....


----------



## connieflyer

pctazhp said:


> OH WOW!! I haven't thought of that song since high school))) And absolutely loved those 45's. It's been downhill ever since. I had a box of them for years, but one day up near Salinas, Lord, I let let it slip away.....


 
 Well I have about 450 of them left, that I have not taken to the resale shop!  Loved tehe 45's especially after the older 78'S!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Definetly Perry Como., voice is softer, Franks had a harder edge to it.


 
 Did I hear someone mention Perry Como????


----------



## oshipao

Hi all,

I hope everyone is enjoying their amps, dacs, headphones etc. ☺️

I have put up my Beyer T1's in the for sale forum now if anyone would be interested.
$475 + PayPal fee and shipping.

I will remove this post if it is not thread compliance.


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> Here's a quote about Genalax 6AS7GA, which is supposedly the same as the holy grail bottle shaped GEC's
> 
> 
> 
> ...




By the way, anybody who thinks that the MOV/Osram/GEC 6AS7G is a clinical-sounding tube should have their head/hearing/tube examined.


----------



## DecentLevi

Maybe, but those weren't my words anyway... does bring an interesting point, if anyone's willing to part with $600 for the Western Electric 421A power tubes, we just may see a successor to the ST-shaped GEC's - although at this point that's all just heresay.
  
 Also @HOWIE13, have you compared your Mimby to the NAD 1050?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Maybe, but those weren't my words anyway... does bring an interesting point, if anyone's willing to part with $600 for the Western Electric 421A power tubes, we just may see a successor to the ST-shaped GEC's - although at this point that's all just heresay.
> 
> Also @HOWIE13, have you compared your Mimby to the NAD 1050?


 
  
 Hi DL- not yet.
  
 Just listened to the NAD for a minute to check it worked but have been spending all my time enjoying Mimby. Bass deepens and becomes more prominent after about 24 hours of play. Still early days though. I must say Mimby is a very rhythmic and agile DAC. Only annoyance so far is it takes about 20- 30 seconds to power up and even then it doesn't automatically recognise which input the digital signal is connected to. You have to select manually. I'm used to Bushmaster 2 and Mojo which detect the input signal automatically. Not such a big deal considering how good Elise and Espressivo sound with Mimby .
  
 Maybe I'll get to listen with NAD at the weekend- got to have something to look forward to, otherwise I'll just start spending again.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 The only thing I can say about your picture is that it is some kind of monument with the inscription Finland in Finnish. I tried a picture search on Google Images but nothing came up.


----------



## DecentLevi

One of the reasons I've been looking for other power tubes, other than trying to get the most out of the Elise, is because I've actually been hearing noise from my Mullard 6080 tubes. It's a medium-high pitch sound, the type of reverberating sound you get after initially hitting a glass, only this is a continual ringing rather than one that fades out - and it only starts after warming up with music for some time. Anybody have a remedy, or experiencing the same problem with your Mullard 6080's? It's definitely not my amp, because those are the only tubes that exhibit this sound.
  
 Speaking of 'getting the most out of your Elise', I'd recon a power regenerator would be a must in that puzzle. I'd almost be afraid to see what one could do for a even higher calliber amp, and I wonder who will be the next to experience this revelation of H1? Speaking of whom, have a good vacation, @hypnos1


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> By the way, anybody who thinks that the MOV/Osram/GEC 6AS7G is a clinical-sounding tube should have their head/hearing/tube examined.


 
 Hahahaha ... I agree .... there's no way you can consider the GEC 6AS7G as clinical sounding.


----------



## DecentLevi

But make no mistake, the semi-audible ringing distortion aside, the Mullard 6080 with the likes of Bendix graphite plate tubes as powers sound absolutely extraordinary. It'd be interesting to see anybody else's results from mixing / matching these with other power tubes


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> One of the reasons I've been looking for other power tubes, other than trying to get the most out of the Elise, is because I've actually been hearing noise from my Mullard 6080 tubes. It's a medium-high pitch sound, the type of reverberating sound you get after initially hitting a glass, only this is a continual ringing rather than one that fades out - and it only starts after warming up with music for some time. Anybody have a remedy, or experiencing the same problem with your Mullard 6080's? It's definitely not my amp, because those are the only tubes that exhibit this sound.


 
 I have no such problems with my Mullard 6080. @louisxiawei  has a problem with one of his Mullard 6080 too. Some noise. The seller replace the tube and all is well now. I suggest you contact the seller and get a replacement(s).


----------



## DecentLevi

Well it's the same noise with both of my Mullards, so I suspect that all would have the same result on my system - possible due to not having a 'ground'
  

 ... oh, wait. Maybe mine's on the ceiling


----------



## mordy

Is this your house?


----------



## louisxiawei

decentlevi said:


> But make no mistake, the semi-audible ringing distortion aside, the Mullard 6080 with the likes of Bendix graphite plate tubes as powers sound absolutely extraordinary. It'd be interesting to see anybody else's results from mixing / matching these with other power tubes


 
 I had the same experience with my Mullard 6080WA. Tiny ringing sound, Maybe Mullard 6080 is just very easy to be microphonic. Can you hear the sound inside of the 6080 if you put ear very close to them? If the sound is audible enough externally. Then there is no doubt that you can hear ringing sound from your headphones.
  
 My seller is nice enough to send me another pair of Mullard 6080WA,  and they have no noise at all, like dead silence and zero noise when no music comes through. 
  
 So you should get another pair. But I find 6080WA is quite sonic, bright and analytical on my T1. Nothing lush or warm.
  
 So quoting  your previous comment "GEC 6AS7G The tube sounds very nice – sound signature is very similar to Mullard 6080, but a bit more air, a bit more details, but that is at the cost of warmth and lusciousness. As Nick stated in his review above – it’s clinical. I personally like warmth of Mullards and to me the tubes sounded great, but not my favorite. I compared it to Tung-Sol 5998 and WE 421A. Western Electric was a clear winner."
  
 I don't really buy those reviews.  post #2581 made by @UntilThen is more practical since it is real experience based on the Elise. So I somehow believe 6AS7G type will sound warmer and lusher than Mullard 6080 type. I'm going to try EL3N first with 6080WA, then upgrade 6080WA to Chatham 6AS7G or GEC 6AS7G.


----------



## DecentLevi

The quote about the GEC's being clinical, as mentioned, was a quote from someone else - apparently the way the sound in the Bottlehead amps. But sonic signatures of tubes _vaguely _remain the same from amp to amp


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> But I find 6080WA is quite sonic, bright and analytical on my T1. Nothing lush or warm.


 
 You hear right. 
  
 Nick's (Bottlehead) reference of the GEC 6AS7G being analytical is referring to it being revealing, with air and layers. That denotes warm and lushness. It's not referring to digital / clinical and lacking analogue warmth.
  
 Tubemaze review on the other hand, turn analytical into clinical and alluded that Mullard 6080 sounds warmer and more lush than the GEC 6AS7G. This I do not agree. I spend considerable time listening to a Woo Audio Wa2 with GEC 6AS7G with HD800 at the meet. I'm also very familiar with the Mullard 6080 sound as I own a pair. GEC 6AS7G has that smoothness with analogue warmth and lushness and yet still very revealing in details. Mullard 6080 sounded sharper, more clinical but with still a healthy dose of punchy bass.
  
 http://www.tubemaze.info/genalex-6as7g-cup-getter-england/#more-3566
  
 This is the setup I listen to.


----------



## UntilThen

Now I'll retire and adopt a simple life. It's either good or not so good as per pct's nomenclature.
  
 After all Einstein did say


----------



## Spork67

My "new" (used)  T1's arrived today - colour me impressed!
  
 They are a little beaten up, but so far the sound is all I'd hoped for.
 If I sell these, it will only be to buy another pair in better condition, or the G2's.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> My "new" (used)  T1's arrived today - colour me impressed!
> 
> They are a little beaten up, but so far the sound is all I'd hoped for.
> If I sell these, it will only be to buy another pair in better condition, or the G2's.


 
 You hear right too !!! I'm impressed by your impression. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Phew, good thing you like it otherwise I'll get rotten apples thrown over from Tassie. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Now sell it and buy @oshipao  's T1 on the cheap.


----------



## Spork67

Obligatory "got new stuff" pic:


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> You hear right.
> 
> Nick's (Bottlehead) reference of the GEC 6AS7G being analytical is referring to it being revealing, with air and layers. That denotes warm and lushness. It's not referring to digital / clinical and lacking analogue warmth.


 
 Alas, I was hoping Mullard bringing me the warm and lush sound as those reviews claimed. Wish it to be true but not at all. @UntilThen Everything you said is just on the spot, the bass is tightly punchy with Mullard 6080. Unfortunately, except the punchy bass and more spacious and 3D image, Mullard 6080WA and Tung-sol 6SN7 combo on Elise still sounds like a ss-amp to me more or less. It is also due to my new DAC, just making the sound even less analogue warm. 
  
 To my ear, Mullard 6080WA sounds "not so good". I'm not bass head, Don't like sharp sound at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 
  
 Still haven't received the stock power tube from Lukasz, bad luck again, and sorry for him as well, he posted 2 weeks ago, and probably lost by the unreliable delivery company. Now he will send them again this week. 
  
 I will swap back the stock power tube once I have them. If stock tubes lack detail, I will try EL3N + 6080WA. If it is still somehow sharp, I will just do the GEC6AS7G + EL3N. Period.


----------



## UntilThen

Louis, EL3N with Chatham 6AS7G will be sufficient but EL3N with GEC 6AS7G will probably make you as happy as @hypnos1 .  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 You missed out on 2 NOS NIB Chatham 6AS7G that were sold recently for $50 and $40. 
  
 ps... I think EL3N and Mullard 6080 might be ok for you but we'll see.


----------



## Arniesb

Whats up guys, how much Elise should cost in europe? Both base model and with upgraded tubes, shipping included. Thanks.


----------



## Spork67

arniesb said:


> Whats up guys, how much Elise should cost in europe? Both base model and with upgraded tubes, shipping included. Thanks.


 
 $739 USD shipped within Europe - a little less if you live in Poland, $5 more for Russia.
 $140 more for upgraded driver tubes.
  
 http://feliksaudio.pl/en/products.php


----------



## Arniesb

spork67 said:


> $739 USD shipped within Europe - a little less if you live in Poland, $5 more for Russia.
> $140 more for upgraded driver tubes.
> 
> http://feliksaudio.pl/en/products.php


Thats with vats included right?


----------



## Spork67

I'm not sure - every country has their own VAT system.
 That's the $ to Feliks.
 You should be able to work out your VAT from there.


----------



## Arniesb

spork67 said:


> I'm not sure - every country has their own VAT system.
> That's the $ to Feliks.
> You should be able to work out your VAT from there.


Ahh, ok. 739$ + Vat. Understand. Thank you.


----------



## vince741

If you live in Europe, the vat is included.


----------



## Arniesb

vince741 said:


> If you live in Europe, the vat is included.


got that, Feliks audio just replied to my email and said me just that. About 660€ shipping included.


----------



## Spork67

arniesb said:


> got that, Feliks audio just replied to my email and said me just that. About 660€ shipping included.


 
 Worth every cent.


----------



## Arniesb

spork67 said:


> Worth every cent.


Im thinking about buying it in december before Christmas. Now im gonna buy HD800S. Do you think it whould work well with Senns and T1.1?


----------



## Spork67

I got my T1G1s today because a few other Elise owners say it's a fantastic combination.
 I wholeheartedly agree with them! Fantastic pairing.


----------



## Arniesb

spork67 said:


> I got my T1G1s today because a few other Elise owners say it's a fantastic combination.
> I wholeheartedly agree with them! Fantastic pairing.


Im happy cause you happy, cause i also have T1.1 ha ha


----------



## Arniesb

By the way spork, do you have stock or upgraded tubes? Whats the sound difference between them?


----------



## Spork67

Still on the stock tubes - but have some "aftermarket" ones coming.


----------



## Arniesb

spork67 said:


> Still on the stock tubes - but have some "aftermarket" ones coming.


Does stock tubes does juctice to T1?


----------



## Spork67

I think so - the advice I got when I was asking similar questions was to get the amp with the stock tubes and listen to it, and buy more tubes later on.
 There  nothing "wrong" with the stock tubes, but more expensive tubes may sound even better, and "different" (not necessarily more expensive) tubes can be used to alter the sound to taste.
  
@UntilThen has T1's, and an extensive collection of tubes he's used with Elise, I'm sure he and others will have more to add to your questions - meanwhile have a read through this thread - plenty of info throughout it.


----------



## Arniesb

spork67 said:


> I think so - the advice I got when I was asking similar questions was to get the amp with the stock tubes and listen to it, and buy more tubes later on.
> There  nothing "wrong" with the stock tubes, but more expensive tubes may sound even better, and "different" (not necessarily more expensive) tubes can be used to alter the sound to taste.
> 
> @UntilThen
> has T1's, and an extensive collection of tubes he's used with Elise, I'm sure he and others will have more to add to your questions - meanwhile have a read through this thread - plenty of info throughout it.


Alright, i will do just dat.


----------



## hpamdr

arniesb said:


> Im thinking about buying it in december before Christmas. Now im gonna buy HD800S. Do you think it whould work well with Senns and T1.1?


 

 Hi Arnies,
  
 Keep in mind that if you order the Elise in December you will have to wait ( one or two months) to get it at home and wait more to have it burned !
 The HD800S work fine with Elise but keep the T1 and do listening once you will have Elise burned with stock tube.
 Once done you should be back to the forum and start tube rolling.
 You will have to test and experiment yourself against your taste and find good combination taking into account also your source and the used HP.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> But make no mistake, the semi-audible ringing distortion aside, the Mullard 6080 with the likes of Bendix graphite plate tubes as powers sound absolutely extraordinary. It'd be interesting to see anybody else's results from mixing / matching these with other power tubes


 
 Have you tried to get rid of the microphonic noise with your silicone rings?


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


>







mordy said:


> The only thing I can say about your picture is that it is some kind of monument with the inscription Finland in Finnish. I tried a picture search on Google Images but nothing came up.




It is the tripoint of Finland, Sweden, and Norway. Finnish and Norwegian faces shown, background is Sweden.



 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Country_Cairn
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripoint


----------



## mordy

Hej Oskari,
  
 Aha, treriksroset - OK.
  
 I was never there, but I did visit a quadripoint - now you have to figure that one out..Or anyone else....


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> I was never there, but I did visit a quadripoint - now you have to figure that one out..Or anyone else....




This one?



 http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=36.998984&lon=-109.045189&z=19&m=b


----------



## mordy

You got it - the only place in the US where four states meet. The stalls with Indians selling artwork and trinkets were more interesting.....
  
 But I think I prefer this viewing platform:
  




  
 This how it felt listening to the Elise the first time.


----------



## Arniesb

hpamdr said:


> Hi Arnies,
> 
> Keep in mind that if you order the Elise in December you will have to wait ( one or two months) to get it at home and wait more to have it burned !
> 
> ...


Thank you, i will listen to your advice, gonna buy with stock tubes. Maybe i will feel no need to upgrade... Besides which headphones do you like better on Elise? HD800S or T1.1


----------



## UntilThen

Welcome @Arniesb  glad you've already make up your mind to purchase Elise. You've already gotten good advice from Spork and hpamdr regarding tubes and headphones.
  
 Both versions of HD800 and T1 will sound very good with Elise. You will not be disappointed. We have owners of all those versions represented here. I have the T1.1.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I have a question for you. What do you think this is?


 
  
 This looks like a giant 6SN7 sticking out in the sand.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> This looks like a giant 6SN7 sticking out in the sand.




That's snow. The temperature was about -30.


----------



## Arniesb

untilthen said:


> Welcome @Arniesb
> glad you've already make up your mind to purchase Elise. You've already gotten good advice from Spork and hpamdr regarding tubes and headphones.
> 
> Both versions of HD800 and T1 will sound very good with Elise. You will not be disappointed. We have owners of all those versions represented here. I have the T1.1.


Thanks for warm welcoming really helpful you guys are. By the way in which direction stock tubes are leaning? How much time tubes need to fully peak? Thanks again good guys


----------



## UntilThen

arniesb said:


> Thanks for warm welcoming really helpful you guys are. By the way in which direction stock tubes are leaning? How much time tubes need to fully peak? Thanks again good guys


 
 Here the Good Guys were a chain of consumer electronic stores but they have been bought over by JB HiFi. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Stock tubes are warm and lush but in a good way. It doesn't mask the details too much. You're still able to enjoy the music and forget about Elise. If a set of tubes does that, it's not leaning south but a good healthy line above the equator.
  
 By 48 hours, your Elise and tubes should start singing and you'll be wondering what took you so long to buy it. Hard to say when it will peak. Varies with different people. Some says 100. Others say 150. Somewhere in between is my take.
  
 I've just tried the stock tubes in my Darkvoice 336se and it's like a humming bird. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Back on Elise and it's pitch black silence between tracks.
  
 Get ready your music. You're about to rediscover them again.


----------



## UntilThen

And for you I'll play 'Another Day in Paradise'. That's what stock tubes are doing in my Elise now.


----------



## Arniesb

untilthen said:


> Here the Good Guys were a chain of consumer electronic stores but they have been bought over by JB HiFi. :wink_face:
> 
> Stock tubes are warm and lush but in a good way. It doesn't mask the details too much. You're still able to enjoy the music and forget about Elise. If a set of tubes does that, it's not leaning south but a good healthy line above the equator.
> 
> ...


God dam*** cant wait


----------



## UntilThen

Wow this is where stock tubes shows it has got meatballs.


----------



## Arniesb

untilthen said:


> Wow this is where stock tubes shows it has got meatballs.




 Beautiful basslines and guitar work! Very Excelent recording whitout a doubt. My opinion T1 can play Rock or metal really well, Especially with warm and punchy setups. I bet it is super great with Elise


----------



## UntilThen

arniesb said:


> Beautiful basslines and guitar work! Very Excelent recording whitout a doubt. My opinion T1 can play Rock or metal really well, Especially with warm and punchy setups. I bet it is super great with Elise


 
 You said it. T1 is the Jack of all trades... and master of all. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 This is one of my favourite track for evaluating tubes. Alan Taylor and Chris Jones on acoustic guitars and excellent singing by Alan.


----------



## UntilThen

@Arniesb you're just next door to Poland. You could have walk to Feliks Audio to pick up your Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

I really enjoy his guitar in this one....


----------



## connieflyer

This is why I play Elise instead of a musical instrument!!!


----------



## connieflyer

I was going to make one of these but since he already did I just passed on it


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup, Welcome Arnie! And now to make the wait worse... or more suspenseful 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just for a 'point of reference' on a few songs I was recently listening to, I did an A/B of my Elise amp setup compared to directly connected to my laptop using my HD 650... and the difference was BEYOND BEYOND staggering!!!!! Absolute infinite immeasurable improvement on the Elise system. Directly connected to my laptop (though using some built in tiny Creative amplified soundcard) everything sounded muddy / fake / grainy / brittle and with a seemingly 1-foot wide soundstage, whereas on my Elise system (fully burned in with upgraded power tubes, upgraded cables, 'Mimby' multibit DAC + Wyrd USB signal enhancer), the sound is so vivid, lush and nearly effortless, multilayered 3D sonic bliss in a very cohesive package with a soundstage at least 20x bigger.
  
 And to think I actually used to prefer my laptop's soundcard over my initial chain (Modi 1 + Magni 1), this is vast sonic improvement


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Listened to the Tennessee Waltz guitar piece. However, even though it was very well recorded and I could hear all the subtle bass tones and details with my EL3N/RCA6080 combo, I felt that it was too much extraneous detail, detracting from the musical experience.
  
 It is like looking at a beautiful picture on a computer screen too close and seeing the individual pixels.
  
 Obviously, if the purpose is to evaluate tubes it is a different story.
  
 Here is an authentic blues guitar trio piece by a present day band (g, wb,sb) led by the great Craig Ventresco - King of the 12 string guitar (bet u never heard of him).
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnvDtitaaTU


----------



## mordy

HI CF,
  
 The Marble Machine reminded me of this music reproduction technology which I am told is pure digital;
  
 The beginning of the video is very instructional in how to operate the old style piano rolls.


----------



## connieflyer

These were a very nice addition to the home. Just keep pumping the treadle and music flowed from the piano.  Pretty ingenious. Carries back to the older music box spring and peg system.  Had legs of steel after pumping up the bellows for awhile.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> But I think I prefer this viewing platform:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is an incredible photo. Apparently the hills need to be wet for the best show.


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> Yup, Welcome Arnie! And now to make the wait worse... or more suspenseful
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I am immediately selling my HD800S and buying an HD650 so I too can experience something BEYOND staggering. But I will have to be careful. Because of my advanced age I already stagger naturally.


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> This is an incredible photo. Apparently the hills need to be wet for the best show.


 
 It must have been pretty dry on the occasions I visited the Four Corners. Never looked like that to me )))


----------



## pctazhp

For her debut appearance on any Elise thread:


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I am immediately selling my HD800S and buying an HD650 so I too can experience something BEYOND staggering. But I will have to be careful. Because of my advanced age I already stagger naturally.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> This is an incredible photo. Apparently the hills need to be wet for the best show.


 
 You can't wet it. The water colours will wash off.


----------



## mordy

The picture is of the aptly named Rainbow Mountains in China in the Zhangye Danxia Landform Geological Park. 
  
 If you Google the name you will find many more stunning pictures. I am not sure if the colors have been enhanced or not.
  
  





  
 Those thin black lines in the rocks symbolize the sounds of tubes warming up in the Elise.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Seems that the Old Piano Roll Blues was a hit in 1950 and many people recorded it then. It is interesting to compare the commercial Tin Pan Alley version to a more authentic ragtime version. Here I found a skilled ragtime player that plays it in several different ragtime styles:


----------



## UntilThen

It's time to share the Fresh Aire series by Mannheim Steamroller, vinyls courtesy of CF.
  
 Fresh Aire is the first album by this new age group and the first 4 albums are centered around a theme - seasons. This is Spring. 
  
 I'm using vanilla stock tubes in Elise and listening with a T1. It's an exceptional recording and very interesting tunes that cause my pupils to widen.


----------



## UntilThen

This is my rainbow when I listen with Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

Fresh Aire II is truly refeshing. The theme is Fall or Autumn as we call it. It's my favourite season. Unique, melodic and original, unlike anything I've heard before.
  

  
 Listen with a HD800 or T1 on this. It will pick up all the subtleties. It's like classical in the forest.


----------



## UntilThen

If I thought II is good, III is even better. It's Summer now and Fresh Aire III has a touch of spice, a blend of classical and rock. It's way past lunch time and I'm still listening.


----------



## UntilThen

Time marches on. It's Winter now with Fresh Aire IV. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
G-Major Toccata and the rest of the tracks are so good I wonder why it took me years to sample Fresh Aire. Lots of synthesizers in this album. This album is GOOD.


----------



## DecentLevi

pctazhp said:


> I am immediately selling my HD800S and buying an HD650 so I too can experience something BEYOND staggering. But I will have to be careful. Because of my advanced age I already stagger naturally.


 
 My point was about the staggering difference between my Elise setup vs. direct to the laptop, rather than proclaiming anything about the HD 650 -  but it's phenomenal how much the entire HD 5xx-6xx-7xx-8xx series are able to scale with hi-end gear


----------



## Spork67

2 packages this morning. TS 5998s in one, and adapters for the EL3Ns in the other.
 Always keen to get home from work, today even more so...


----------



## UntilThen

With the first 4 albums finished, I wonder if it can get better and it DID with Fresh Aire V. This is light fantasy as you travel through space. Full choral and orchestra pieces here. Right on - they feature the London Symphony Orchestra here.
  
 All this while still on stock tubes with Elise. Getting a bit hot on the top plates so the fans are directed towards it and immediately it cools. Now I can continue listening and stock tubes continue to impress.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> 2 packages this morning. TS 5998s in one, and adapters for the EL3Ns in the other.
> Always keen to get home from work, today even more so...


 
 Should be an exciting weekend. Hope you won't have too much trouble getting the tubes into the adapters.


----------



## DecentLevi

*BEHOLD THE "RCA 6AS7G" EXPERIENCE*​  ​ Folks this is without a shadow of a doubt, by far and wide the single most impressive 'moment' of my home hi-fi audio experience of my lifetime (excluding maybe the top 3-5% of the headphone meet's I've been to). Introducing the sound of a sleeping timeless beauty:

 RCA 6AS7G powers
  
 From the instant I turned this on, I have been absolutely gobsmacked with stunning performance. Songs I've heard a hundred times, now have a completely new level of realism revealed that I never knew existed... I had no idea my Elise was capable of sounding _THIS _good! Absolutely Transfixing. Audio nirvanna and limitless resolution! This is *sonic bliss full stop*, in spades - sound that makes one moment last forever. 
  
 Total puristic sound, smooth, vividness / realism in spades, thunderous subterranean bass, airy spacious treble, luscious lushness, super expansive soundstage, great tonality and astonishing energy!!! Though time doesn't yet permit direct A/B comparisons, by memory I can tell you that this leaves ALL former power tubes far, far in the dust. Mullards and Bendix sounded amazing, but this is a whole other level.
  
 This is really like listening to all my songs for the first time, in a way I really never imagined possible! Though I do attribute at least some of this grandiose experience to my multibit DAC (Modi Multibit 'Mimby'), of which is only an entry-level multibit / R2R DAC nontheless 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  

  
 Also this thing is beeeaauutiful! Just to give you some perspective on the size, you can see how much larger it is than the standard size of a 6080 tube. And yes I was actually holding this parallel to the RCA 6AS7G.
  
 If there's anything that could remotely be considered bad about this tube, it may be slightly musical as UT suggested on this post here, and is moderately revealing on the treble. But at least with the HD650, this tube matches them famously, IMO. Best of all, this relic of a tube is available at a 'steal' price - and doesn't need adapters.


----------



## DecentLevi

BTW, a main reason I got the RCA's above is because they appeared to have a (somewhat) similar internal construction to the top GEC ST-shaped tubes. And if luck is on my side, I just might be able to have my own to compare to these, and / or even the Western Electric 421A's that are reputed as the best in its' class.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

RCA 6AS7G are a very laidback tube, in the 339 at least. I think this one may be polarizing for some. They were my first NOS power tube for that amp. A very warm and romantic, tonally rich sound. I prefer the Bendix for most of my listening, but would agree these are special for when one wants to really relax.


----------



## Spork67

How do the RCA 6AS7G compare to the vintage TS 5998's ​
@DecentLevi?


----------



## UntilThen

Alright I was momentarily thrown off track. That comment wasn't made by me btw. It's from Howie, regarding the RCA 6AS7G.
  
 I'm not one to denounce any tubes and would agree with LJ's impressions of the RCA 6AS7G. Strong rich bass with a full on mid range but not one for details lovers. However if you're not too critical, they will provide a warm and comforting sound.
  
 If you like them, you're fortunate because they are still 'cheap' and NOS NIB versions are still available.
  
 Now back to Fresh Aire VI. This is now based on impressions of Greek mythology with the backing of Cambridge singers and London Symphony. Mannheim Steamrollers even perform for President Clinton and now I get a private listen. Love it. With electronic instruments weaving seamlessly into choral and orchestra sounds, it is a very interesting, very rich and musical album.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> How do the RCA 6AS7G compare to the vintage TS 5998's ​
> @DecentLevi?


 
 DL doesn't have the 5998 but I can tell you how they contrast. These are at opposite end of the spectrum. Where RCA 6AS7G is laid back and warm, 5998 is dynamic and energise.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> DL doesn't have the 5998 but I can tell you how they contrast. These are at opposite end of the spectrum. Where RCA 6AS7G is laid back and warm, 5998 is dynamic and energise.


 
  
 Yep-I did think those RCA's where too warm for most of my listening, with not enough resolution in the treble most of the time. If you want a lush tube it will suit though. I've come to the conclusion that I'm a bit of a treble freak anyway cos of all the complex orchestral music I listen to. They could suit vocals or some late night Jazz, I would imagine. I'll give them a try with the Duke, Ella and Peggy tonight.
  
 Now two things are bothering me this morning (well three if I include laryngitis),
  
  @DecentLevi, I didn't think Mimby was an R2R DAC. My understanding is that most present day multibit DACS are still Delta Sigma in design.
  
@UntilThen Those stock tubes in your picture don't look like the ones I received with Elise.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> DL doesn't have the 5998 but I can tell you how they contrast. These are at opposite end of the spectrum. Where RCA 6AS7G is laid back and warm, 5998 is dynamic and energise.


 
 Thanks UT.
 Absolutely loving the 5998's so far.
 I think they will be my "daily driver" and I can swap in the stock tubes if I want more laid-back and warm.
 My cheap Phillips 6080WC don't really sound "better" to me than either of these power tubes. They aren't "bad", just nothing special. Will probably just keep them for spares, although also interesting to see how different powers synergise with different drivers I suppose.


----------



## HOWIE13

That synergy Spork67 mentions is so important and I had an associated passing thought about Elise in the early hours this morning.
  
 Conventionally, as I understand it, the power tubes are thought to contribute less than the drivers to the overall sound. In my LD 2/2, for instance, it seemed about 80/20 driver /power.
  
 It seems to me in Elise it's much more 50/50- which is great as it gives more scope to fine tune the sound.


----------



## hpamdr

howie13 said:


> Yep-I did think those RCA's where too warm for most of my listening, with not enough resolution in the treble most of the time. If you want a lush tube it will suit though. I've come to the conclusion that I'm a bit of a treble freak anyway cos of all the complex orchestral music I listen to. They could suit vocals or some late night Jazz, I would imagine. I'll give them a try with the Duke, Ella and Peggy tonight.


 
 This is a very good point Howie, the RCA 6AS7G is warm but not dynamic and somehow a bit smooth this is not for symphonic music ! If you have old recording or use some cd rip that miss details and dynamic with the RCA 6AS7G, you will not/less notice the conversion hysteresis and crackle.
 Even with some driver like EL3N that gives/add a lot of "air" you will listen it as if it was "remastered" .
  
 But for sure if you listen (real) HD tracks, some better power tube are more suitable to get details and dynamic.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> Should be an exciting weekend. Hope you won't have too much trouble getting the tubes into the adapters.


 

  
 Shame the stickers are on the "front" of the marshmallow/bathtubs instead of the back.
 Might try removing them and painting the adapters a tasteful satin black to better match Elise.


----------



## HOWIE13

hpamdr said:


> This is a very good point Howie, the RCA 6AS7G is warm but not dynamic and somehow a bit smooth this is not for symphonic music ! If you have old recording or use some cd rip that miss details and dynamic with the RCA 6AS7G, you will not/less notice the conversion hysteresis and crackle.
> Even with some driver like EL3N that gives/add a lot of "air" you will listen it as if it was "remastered" .
> 
> But for sure if you listen (real) HD tracks, some better power tube are more suitable to get details and dynamic.


 
 Thanks, you have just given me a brilliant idea. 
 We have a couple coming round Sunday for lunch and he loves old opera recordings-Caruso, Gigli, Lanza etc. He's just bought a refurbished 1930's gramophone (with a handle) for his '78's, but he also has many remastered CD's of the great operatic tenors of the past.
 I'll ask him to bring some of his CD's along and listen with the RCA's-maybe with the stock 6SN7 as drivers. Could be an interesting afternoon.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Shame the stickers are on the "front" of the marshmallow/bathtubs instead of the back.
> Might try removing them and painting the adapters a tasteful satin black to better match Elise.


 
 If those are MrsX's adapters it looks like they have redesigned the sticker. I prefer the older type.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> @UntilThen Those stock tubes in your picture don't look like the ones I received with Elise.


 
 Hahahaha 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just making sure you have your glasses on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Those pictures were taken last week when the vinyls came and I had on Fivre 6N7G brown base with Tung Sol 7236. Superb combo.
  
 Today I listened with stock tubes for most of the day and then switch to Sylvania 6SN7gtb with Tung Sol 5998 at the end. Each time I switch away from stock tubes, I hear a big improvement even though when I'm listening to stock tubes, they sound reasonable to me.


----------



## Spork67

@HOWIE13 Pretty sure they are MrsX's product.
  
 and WOW!
  
 I've had somewhat of an epiphany this afternoon.
 Tubes aren't necessarily a case of "better" or "worse", (as in audio this is all subjective).
 What they do is give us choice.
 They can be altered to suit the music, the mood or the headphones (and I guess any other part of the chain)
 They can be used instead of an (inferior IMO) graphic equaliser to tailor the sound.
 I can pop in the stock drivers and be listening to Lou Reed in a small bar, or I can swap them for the EL3Ns and I'm in a stadium!
  
@DecentLevi  - thank you so much for first alerting me to the existence of Elise!
  
 To @UntilThen and everyone else in this thread - thanks for your help and guidance.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Thanks, you have just given me a brilliant idea.
> We have a couple coming round Sunday for lunch and he loves old opera recordings-Caruso, Gili, Lanza etc. He's just bought a refurbished 1930's gramophone (with a handle) for his '78's, but he also has many remastered CD's of the great operatic tenors of the past.
> I'll ask him to bring some of his CD's along and listen with the RCA's-maybe with the stock 6SN7 as drivers. Could be an interesting afternoon.


 
 For the ultimate in thick chocolatey milk shake, you must try the all RCA combo of RCA 6sn7gt VTI smoke glass and RCA 6AS7G.
  
 Those operatic tenors of the past will sound better than the 3 Tenors.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I've had somewhat of an epiphany this afternoon.
> Tubes aren't necessarily a case of "better" or "worse", (as in audio this is all subjective).
> What they do is give us choice.
> They can be altered to suit the music, the mood or the headphones (and I guess any other part of the chain)
> ...


 
 You're hooked on tubes now. They will fascinate you and before you know it, you're scouting eBay for more tubes. 
  
 In the wild west, they say 'Have guns will travel'. Here in vintage land, it's 'Have tube amps will roll'.


----------



## richdytch

Not sure if these have ever been discussed here, but decent budget tube alert! I read on some web page I can't even remember, that there were some cheapo 68NP tubes, a direct equivalent (or so I was told) to 6SN7 coming out of China. The thread was very divided on the subject - some people reckoned they were amazing, others were a bit sniffy. 
  
 I got a pair, just to see what they were like, since they were only £17 for the pair. They arrived very quickly and I gave them a whizz with Chatham 6AS7G as powers. This was when I was using my Quad power amp, which I've come to realise, has very specific tube combos which work, but not much else sounds any good. The 68NP sounded pretty flat, not terribly good in any department. I let them run a while, gave them a chance, but they didn't shape up - if anything they seemed to deteriorate as they burned in. They certainly looked pretty tatty too. 
  
 However, I just randomly tried them again, since I'm revisiting all my tubes to reassess them in the light of getting my Bantam Gold amp. What a difference. In this setup, with Mullard 6080, they seem to be a bit of a decent all-rounder. Their special talent seems to be highlighting the frequencies which accentuate reverb. Orchestral stuff sounds really 'live' and involving. But they're certainly a good achiever in the mids and bass.  There's a real absence of harshness to my ears. 
  
 Those observations were from use of the Elise as a preamp, over speakers. I just tried a comparison with the HE400 and they still do quite well. I'd say with those headphones there seems to be a very slight hole somewhere in the mids, which I can't quite put my finger on yet. Will have to give them more time later on. 
  
 Anyway, I'm a big believer that any tube's performance are at least 50% dependent on the other components in the chain. But for £17 (and you could probably find them cheaper) they're worth a stab. I'm certainly enjoying them a lot right now. A lot of depth and involvement.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ah-ha just testing eh?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think the Fivre's look really cool. I don't have those Sylvanias, got some Tung-Sol 6SN7gtb's' from the '60's. A bit different sounding from Elise's stock tubes of the same name. Less warm, more inner detail and treble. Very good value, price wise, at the time I bought them for Horizon about 2 years ago.


----------



## UntilThen

Well Rich, I've completely forgotten about the 6N8P and likewise the 6N5P power tubes from China. These are stock tubes in my Darkvoice 336se and the stock tubes were lock up and the keys thrown away. It's only now that you mention it that I brought them out of jail to get a breath of fresh air. 
  
 Listening to it now on DV... hmmmm not bad... I didn't feel the urge to reach for the Listerine mouth wash or ear cleanser. There might be some hope here...


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> For the ultimate in thick chocolatey milk shake, you must try the all RCA combo of RCA 6sn7gt VTI smoke glass and RCA 6AS7G.
> 
> Those operatic tenors of the past will sound better than the 3 Tenors.


 
 LOL!
  
 I don't have those smokey RCA's but I have unsmoked ones which are also warm so I can try them. Maybe 'Mouse Ears' or a 6N6P will be almost as warm. I haven't tried  6N6P in Elise before-will be right on the 6.8A max if I use with the 6AS7powers though.


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Well Rich, I've completely forgotten about the 6N8P and likewise the 6N5P power tubes from China. These are stock tubes in my Darkvoice 336se and the stock tubes were lock up and the keys thrown away. It's only now that you mention it that I brought them out of jail to get a breath of fresh air.
> 
> Listening to it now on DV... hmmmm not bad... I didn't feel the urge to reach for the Listerine mouth wash or ear cleanser. There might be some hope here...


 
  Oh nice, I didn't realise that they did a similar power tube   - I might have to give some of those a go 
  
 I don't think they'll set the world alight, but they do seem like a decent all-rounder, not actually bad in any department - but they do seem to go well with my speakers. I think that's the important thing. For me anyway.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> Have you tried to get rid of the microphonic noise with your silicone rings?


 
 Yup I've tried that before, and didn't seem to notice much difference in that regards, but can test more
  


howie13 said:


> Yep-I did think those RCA's where too warm for most of my listening, with not enough resolution in the treble most of the time. If you want a lush tube it will suit though. I've come to the conclusion that I'm a bit of a treble freak anyway cos of all the complex orchestral music I listen to. They could suit vocals or some late night Jazz, I would imagine. I'll give them a try with the Duke, Ella and Peggy tonight.
> 
> Now two things are bothering me this morning (well three if I include laryngitis),
> 
> @DecentLevi, I didn't think Mimby was an R2R DAC. My understanding is that most present day multibit DACS are still Delta Sigma in design.


 
 Personally my initial impressions of the RCA 6AS7G's were the bass was full and excellent quality / multilayered ability, but not necessarily emphasized, and for the treble, it was somewhat detailed / forward
  
 Further research is required on if Mimby is actually a DS DAC


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Yup I've tried that before, and didn't seem to notice much difference in that regards, but can test more
> 
> Personally my initial impressions of the RCA 6AS7G's were the bass was full and excellent quality / multilayered ability, but not necessarily emphasized, and for the treble, it was somewhat detailed / forward
> 
> Further research is required on if Mimby is actually a DS DAC


 
 Perfect timing as I've just found a reference to the AD 5547CRUZ chip in Mimby indeed being of R2R architecture. It was on a seller's website. No mention of architecture on the manufacturer's spec sheet.


----------



## hpamdr

howie13 said:


> Perfect timing as I've just found a reference to the AD 5547CRUZ chip in Mimby indeed being of R2R architecture. It was on a seller's website. No mention of architecture on the manufacturer's spec sheet.


 

 Give  a look on Analog device http://www.analog.com/en/products/digital-to-analog-converters/da-converters/ad5547.html#product-overview
 On mouser : http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD5547CRUZ  you will get the same info.... But it is not a huge resistor network not like in totaldac


----------



## HOWIE13

hpamdr said:


> Give  a look on Analog device http://www.analog.com/en/products/digital-to-analog-converters/da-converters/ad5547.html#product-overview
> On mouser : http://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD5547CRUZ  you will get the same info.... But it is not a huge resistor network not like in totaldac


 
  
 Thanks for those links. It's all pretty incomprehensible to me, unfortunately, but I did find one seller describe the chip as an R2R, although neither Mouser or AD say so in their descriptions-but maybe it's inferred in the other specs and I don't understand enough about electronics to realise.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Thanks for those links. It's all pretty incomprehensible to me, unfortunately, but I did find one seller describe the chip as an R2R, although neither Mouser or AD say so in their descriptions-but maybe it's inferred in the other specs and I don't understand enough about electronics to realise.


 
 When I was a kid I loved earning my Ham Radio license and learning about electronics. The concept of a triode tube seemed so simple and the additional elements of a pentode made sense. The only other thing needed was Ohms Law.
  
 When digital first came along it seemed pretty simple with the 1s and 0s. From what I could remember from my calculus classes, it seemed to make sense how the waveform was recreated in a digital realm. But then digital skyrocketed beyond my feeble comprehension.
  
 In my audiophile days I owned Mike Moffatt's Theta 5 DAC and it was the only DAC I had heard that approached the level I enjoyed from vinyl. So when I got back into headphones I bought my Bimby. I don't say much about it here because the only other relatively current DAC I have heard is the Aune T1 and there's no comparison. I don't have a clue regarding the Bimby's multibit technology, but it does the trick for me )))


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> When I was a kid I loved earning my Ham Radio license and learning about electronics. The concept of a triode tube seemed so simple and the additional elements of a pentode made sense. The only other thing needed was Ohms Law.
> 
> When digital first came along it seemed pretty simple with the 1s and 0s. From what I could remember from my calculus classes, it seemed to make sense how the waveform was recreated in a digital realm. But then digital skyrocketed beyond my feeble comprehension.
> 
> In my audiophile days I owned Mike Moffatt's Theta 5 DAC and it was the only DAC I had heard that approached the level I enjoyed from vinyl. So when I got back into headphones I bought my Bimby. I don't say much about it here because the only other relatively current DAC I have heard is the Aune T1 and there's no comparison. I don't have a clue regarding the Bimby's multibit technology, but it does the trick for me )))


 
 That's so good to hear because I think Mimby is not too dissimilar in sound, from what I've read.
 My friend Ian has a 30 year old Arcam CD player with an NOS DAC, built in, and it sounds very vinyl like, music flowing effortlessly across the room. I could listen for days on end to that sound.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> That's so good to hear because I think Mimby is not too dissimilar in sound, from what I've read.
> My friend Ian has a 30 year old Arcam CD player with an NOS DAC, built in, and it sounds very vinyl like, music flowing effortlessly across the room. I could listen for days to that sound.


 
 I think I've mentioned before that most of the posts I've seen regarding the Schiit multibit DACs lead me to believe there probably is not a significant distance between the Mimby and the Bimby. In fact, I'm not sure there really is a significant difference from bottom to top of the Schiit DACs. Beyond the Bimby one is paying for balanced DACs, which to me seems like mainly a waste of money when running a single ended amp. But I haven't heard any Schiit DAC other than my Bimby.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I think I've mentioned before that most of the posts I've seen regarding the Schiit multibit DACs lead me to believe there probably is not a significant distance between the Mimby and the Bimby. In fact, I'm not sure there really is a significant difference from bottom to top of the Schiit DACs. Beyond the Bimby one is paying for balanced DACs, which to me seems like mainly a waste of money when running a single ended amp. But I haven't heard any Schiit DAC other than my Bimby.


 
 The only other Schiit I have is a Vali2. It's a fun amp to have by the bedside and take away on holiday. Nice sound, versatile, seems well built and, as usual with Schiit, good value.


----------



## UntilThen

Don't be too caught up with r2r vs ds. The discussions here will rob you of any sleep. http://www.head-fi.org/t/779572/r2r-multibit-vs-delta-sigma-is-there-a-measurable-scientific-difference-thats-audible
  
 For us layman. it's best just to listen and decide for ourselves what sounds best to us. There are no absolutes here.
  
 All this talk about DACs sounding vinyl like, I'm pretty sure my turntable sounds vinyl like and that the vinyls sounds vinyl and not plastic but that's debatable.


----------



## UntilThen

All good things must come to an end. This is the last Mannheim Steamroller LP - Saving the wildlife. I love wildlife !!!
  
 This has very nice tempos. Each track relates to an animal species and they even sound like it.
  
 Track 1 - Rhinos and Elephants
 Track 2 - Dolphins and Whales
 Track 3 - Wolfgang Armaedeus Penguin
  
 and so on.


----------



## mordy

HI UT,
  
 For Penguin music you definitively need paddle feet tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> HI UT,
> 
> For Penguin music you definitively need paddle feet tubes.


 
 Holy moly why didn't I think of that. I've been listening to the Penguin tune with ECC31 and 7236.
  
 Now frantically searching for my EL3Ns and Penguin suit for the ultimate experience.


----------



## mordy

UT, u r on the right track - pun intended!
  
 Hi DL,
  
 Enthusiasm is what makes the tubes roll - keep on rolling, and u will end up with something that u rather leave in the amp and not change.
  
 Now, I have both the RCA 6AS7G and the RCA 6080. In my system, although the 6AS7G sound OK, they are too soft and lack the punch that I like, but.... all those qualities that I find lacking in the Coke bottle RCA I find in the RCA 6080, in combination with the EL3N.
  
 This combo is my current favorite and to boot, the RCA 6080 are among the least expensive power tubes you can find if you buy them right.
  
 Well worth trying.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Well Rich, I've completely forgotten about the 6N8P and likewise the 6N5P power tubes from China. These are stock tubes in my Darkvoice 336se and the stock tubes were lock up and the keys thrown away. It's only now that you mention it that I brought them out of jail to get a breath of fresh air.
> 
> Listening to it now on DV... hmmmm not bad... I didn't feel the urge to reach for the Listerine mouth wash or ear cleanser. There might be some hope here...




The 6N5P appears to have a ceramic top spacer instead of mica. Kind of unusual.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Here is a picture of my Chinese Shuguang 6N5PJ. Are the spacers ceramic? The top spacer is see through plastic.
  




  
 This is not a great sounding tube, but it lights up very nicely.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> Here is a picture of my Chinese Shuguang 6N5PJ. Are the spacers ceramic? The top spacer is see through plastic.




Transparent or translucent spacers are mica, which is a mineral. Plastic would outgas killing the vacuum. I actually have the same amp and tube that UT has. The top spacer is white and not translucent at all.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Transparent or translucent spacers are mica, which is a mineral. Plastic would outgas killing the vacuum. I actually have the same amp and tube that UT has. The top spacer is white and not translucent at all.


 
 I thought the white piece is cardboard but then it would have burn up. A thin white piece. Can't be plastic too. So probably ceramic like you say. Seems like we have identical DV 336se.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> This is not a great sounding tube, but it lights up very nicely.


 
 That was the conclusion for me previously. That's why they were lock up and keys thrown away. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 However now it's sounded ok. A bit bright, a bit lean but it did not sound metallic like it use to before... mids is fleshing out.
  
 Sounds ok with Witchy Woman.


----------



## UntilThen

liu junyuan said:


> I prefer the Bendix for most of my listening.


 
 LJ, I've 2 Bendix slotted graphite plates arriving soon. Let's see how they sound compared to the tubes I've listened to.


----------



## geetarman49

yep, this one's on the fast train comin' at ya ...  hope it plays nice.


----------



## geetarman49

& LR, he's gettin' this baby; also on the fast train, but different platform ...


----------



## UntilThen

I hope you have fighter planes escort and that you switch the tubes. I wouldn't mind running one Bendix and one Osram in Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

Continuing on with exploring the vinyls from @connieflyer .
  
 Yanni - Keys To Imagination is $257 new on Amazon. It is his second studio album and a superb musical sounding one. Terry captures it beautifully with a one paragraph summary.
  
Yanni's 1986 debut release for Private Music remains one of his most striking works. Created in the vinyl era and thus clocking in at a modest 39 minutes, _Keys to Imagination_ nevertheless captures some of Yanni's most expansive, chest-thumping efforts. While some of the electronic voicings used here are beginning to sound faintly dated, Yanni brings his own brand of propulsive, classical-edged thunder to the familiar prog-rock tactic of tension followed by release. The slow-building, Middle Eastern-flavored title track, for instance, circles overhead like a mysterious raven while you explore a deep, narrow desert canyon. In a flash, a torrent of sound roars through the chasm and sweeps you away in a flood of sonic fury. It may not be a perfect record, but it is an entertaining one. _--Terry Wood_


----------



## connieflyer

Sue and I attended I believe five of his live concerts over the years.  Always put on a great show, liked the fact that each featured artist had his or her time in the sun on stage. The company I worked for, allowed me to make some good contacts with some of the shows.  We were the number three in sales for 3m and   Ampex audio tape in the U. S.and that was a good while ago!  I was able to get some good seats down front on most concerts. Glad you are enjoying the vinyl.  Was not sure what to send, so did a mixture, when I was younger I used to read minds, but gave it up when I found out what some folks thought of me!


----------



## UntilThen

Nothing like attending a live show and you have attended many with front row seats. Almost forgot about 3M but now I recall Scotch brand tapes and Post It notes. Of course the Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing company has a lot more products than that. They are a big American multinational conglomerate corporation.
  
 You read my mind pretty well. Loving all these vinyls.


----------



## connieflyer

Glad you are enjoying them.


----------



## connieflyer

Maybe you would enjoy seeing where our property in Tennessee was.  If you look down in the valley on the right handside of the large part of the lake, you can just make out Sue waving up at you!


----------



## UntilThen

I can't see her waving. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 That's a lovely view. Perfect spot to compose some sonatas. Is that the Tennessee River? Here's the map. I want to visit you and pretend I'm Davy Crockett. He's from East Tennessee.


----------



## connieflyer

That is Cherokee Lake, and Davy Crocket's saloon is in the town of Morristown down by the lake.  Walked in and was very surprised at how low the ceiling was.  That would be east of Knoxville about 40 miles on I-40


----------



## UntilThen

I've now come to the last of the LPs you send me.
  
 The Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields is totally new to me but I've just learned that they are a English Chamber Orchestra based in London. Here in this album we have:-
 Side 1 
 George Frideric Handel Concerto Grosso in G Major Op. 6 No. 1 and 4
 Side 2
 Anotonio Vivaldi Concerto in B Minor for Four Violins Op. 3
 Georg Philipp Telemann Viola Concerto in G Major.
  
 I've just learned that the conductor Sir Neville Marriner passed away on the 2nd Oct 2016 at aged 92.
  
 I sat mesmerised and found myself really enjoying this album. Beautiful.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I've now come to the last of the LPs you send me.
> 
> The Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields is totally new to me but I've just learned that they are a English Chamber Orchestra based in London. Here in this album we have:-
> Side 1
> ...


 
 No visit to London would be complete for any music lover without a visit to St Martin in the Fields to attend a candlelight concert. Memorable experience. Hope you like this:


----------



## Spork67

I've spent a few hours with TS 5998, EL3N and the T1 combination now.
 It's bordering on _too much_ good!
 Massive amounts of detail, amazingly dynamic and energetic - need to be careful with the volume for some music that has sudden loud bits.
 I'm really enjoying this combination - but thinking I will need to spend some time with slightly more laid back tubes too, especially for longer listening sessions.
 The EL3Ns will be my go-to for gaming I with the massive and accurate sound stage they bring to the party.
  
 I'll have to try the TH-X00s with these tubes too - could work really well as they are a touch warmer than the beyers.


----------



## DecentLevi

*DACs*
 For those in the R2R discussion, I've owned both the Mimby and the Bimby, and here's a link to compilation of my impressions showing big differences. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
*New tubes today*
 Incoming today was my Sylvania 6080 tubes. Unfortunately, these seem to have a fairly overshadowing mid-bass bloom, and the rest of the spectrum / refinement is sub-par, similar to the GE 6AS7GA. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
*RCA 6AS7G*
 On a 2nd days' listen with 'fresh ears', it seems you guys were right about the slight bass dominance. Almost a dark tube, but the mids / highs are very crisp and detailed nevertheless. Still the best $25 I've ever spent on anything, and I could see these as being end game tubes for some. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
*The 'games' continue*
 So this morning I lost the bidding war on eBay for a pair of 'holy grail' ST (bottle shaped) GEC 6AS7 G brown base tubes. I was really hoping to acquire these, at least as a comparison to my upcoming tubes. But I'm not sweating it, because I've managed to order a pair of Western Electric 421A (5998 class). These are widely regarded as the best in their class - even surpassing the refinement of the GEC's - selling for _up to_ $1,200 / pair (sometimes much less) - I got my pair for $350 (unmatched, from two separate sources). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also if anyone is ever interested in these, let me know first because I've recently became an expert on how to spot a genuine W.E. 421A.


----------



## HOWIE13

I read this morning that the Chinese are making copies of GEC stickers. It's good we have our 'resident' experts to help us.
  
 http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> No visit to London would be complete for any music lover without a visit to St Martin in the Fields to attend a candlelight concert. Memorable experience. Hope you like this:


 
 Yes love this. I've discovered St Martin.... and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart simply brilliant.


----------



## Lord Raven

geetarman49 said:


> & LR, he's gettin' this baby; also on the fast train, but different platform ...




Awesome  

@geetarman49 Thank you very much, the train must be bullet.


----------



## AltCtrl

Got my new EL3N and 7236 tubes and hear buzzing again from 12 o'clock and up. Is that normal for new tubes while they're breaking in?


----------



## Lord Raven

altctrl said:


> Got my new EL3N and 7236 tubes and hear buzzing again from 12 o'clock and up. Is that normal for new tubes while they're breaking in?


 
  
 My Tung Sol 7236 had some buzzing, pops, and crackles too, it went away after half hour of burning in. Thanks to UT for his advice


----------



## HOWIE13

...and my pair of TS 7236 's sounded awful for the first 24 hours and then they sounded very good. Can't remember if they made noises or not though.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I've spent a few hours with TS 5998, EL3N and the T1 combination now.
> It's bordering on _too much_ good!
> Massive amounts of detail, amazingly dynamic and energetic - need to be careful with the volume for some music that has sudden loud bits.
> I'm really enjoying this combination - but thinking I will need to spend some time with slightly more laid back tubes too, especially for longer listening sessions.
> ...


 
 You can turn it around and see how it goes.
  
 Stock drivers with 5998.
 EL3N with stock powers.
  
 When you get the Visseaux 6N7G, try it with 5998 and stock powers.


----------



## UntilThen

altctrl said:


> Got my new EL3N and 7236 tubes and hear buzzing again from 12 o'clock and up. Is that normal for new tubes while they're breaking in?


 
 I didn't do the 12 o'clock and up test for every new tubes but now they are all quiet. 
  
 Did you buy the new Cetron 7236? They are lovely tubes. Great tone. Pairs beautifully with EL3N.


----------



## AltCtrl

untilthen said:


> I didn't do the 12 o'clock and up test for every new tubes but now they are all quiet.
> 
> Did you buy the new Cetron 7236? They are lovely tubes. Great tone. Pairs beautifully with EL3N.


 
 Yes I have the Cetron 7236 and Philips EL3N. I'll try burning them in for more hours or taking the tubes out and putting them back in or just moving the amp around and see if it helps get rid of the buzzing.


----------



## UntilThen

altctrl said:


> Yes I have the Cetron 7236 and Philips EL3N. I'll try burning them in for more hours or taking the tubes out and putting them back in or just moving the amp around and see if it helps get rid of the buzzing.


 
 Yeah let the tubes burn in.
  
 You will find that stock drivers and 7236 produce a great tone too. Try it.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> You can turn it around and see how it goes.
> 
> Stock drivers with 5998.
> EL3N with stock powers.
> ...


 
 I tried the 5998's with the stock drivers and it sounded very good.
 Adding the EL3N made more good! Biggest difference was the size of the sound stage seemingly doubling, but they also brought even more dynamism and punch to an already energetic sound.
 My ears are likelty still adjusting to the T1's a bit too, and they are a more energetic and punchy sound than the TH-X00s were.
  
 Haven't tried the EL3N with the stock drivers or with the 6080s - yet.
 Hoping the Visseaux and the 5998s work well together - they would possibly be the most aesthetically pleasing combination of tubes I'll own.
  
 Also ordered a second 2 x EL3N into 6AS7G adapter - already had one (bought "accidentally" thinking it was 2 single adapters), and will order 4 more EL3N so I can try the "six pack" out.
  
 My plan of "just get one good pair of drivers and one good pair of powers" isn't really working very well...


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> My plan of "just get one good pair of drivers and one good pair of powers" isn't really working very well...


 
 No that's not how it pans out for all of us. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Visseaux 6N7G and 5998 is one sweet ecstasy inducing combo.


----------



## whirlwind

spork67 said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > You can turn it around and see how it goes.
> ...


 
 Ha ha......lock up your wallet


----------



## UntilThen

I'm waking up to Pavarotti's Verismo Arias. Hmmm I might need the EL3N and Chatham 6520 here.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Ha ha......lock up your wallet


 
 Yo WW, how's the ZMF Omni? I think it will be perfect for Pavarotti.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Ha ha......lock up your wallet
> ...


 
 Hey UT.
  
 It is a really fun headphone and completely different from anything that I own.
  
 The bass has some nice weight to it and the sound stage is much larger than I was anticipating for an 85% closed headphone.
  
 Zach has done a wonderful job in tuning them.
  
 Did not roll any tubes for the first week  6336B powers and C3g drivers....I have just rolled for the first time this morning....just been enjoying the music.
  
 Listening to some Robert Cray at the moment.....Shame + A Sin album


----------



## pctazhp

In my opinion, this is an absolute steal (particularly for anyone using EL3Ns for drivers) http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6080-CV8614-NOS-BRITISH-PAIR-NEW-OLD-STOCK-TESTED-BOXED-VINTAGE-VALVES-TUBES-/172361976996?hash=item2821930ca4:g:WNgAAOSw8gVX8ac8
  
 The EL3N/GEC6080 combo is by a considerable measure the best combo I have ever used in the Elise. As I have said before it simply gets everything right - organic. I'm very tempted to buy this pair as a backup, but these tubes are rare and I don't want to be a hog. If someone doesn't buy these in the next day or two I probably will buy them myself.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> In my opinion, this is an absolute steal (particularly for anyone using EL3Ns for drivers) http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6080-CV8614-NOS-BRITISH-PAIR-NEW-OLD-STOCK-TESTED-BOXED-VINTAGE-VALVES-TUBES-/172361976996?hash=item2821930ca4:g:WNgAAOSw8gVX8ac8
> 
> The EL3N/GEC6080 combo is by a considerable measure the best combo I have ever used in the Elise. As I have said before it simply gets everything right - organic. I'm very tempted to buy this pair as a backup, but these tubes are rare and I don't want to be a hog. If someone doesn't buy these in the next day or two I probably will buy them myself.


 
 Any similarities between the GEC 6080 and 7236? 
  
 I have a hunch that the GEC 6080 and Bendix 6080wb share some common traits but I can't be sure as I have not heard both.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Any similarities between the GEC 6080 and 7236?
> 
> I have a hunch that the GEC 6080 and Bendix 6080wb share some common traits but I can't be sure as I have not heard both.


 
 I haven't listened to my 7236s in a long time, but I would say not much similarity. By comparison the 7236 is more "electronic" and "analytic". Also don't know about the Bendix. I do know there is very little similarity between my Mullard 6080s and the GECs.
  
 If you decide to buy this pair of GECs and don't like them, I'll buy them from you at your cost.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> I've now come to the last of the LPs you send me.
> 
> The Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields is totally new to me but I've just learned that they are a English Chamber Orchestra based in London. Here in this album we have:-
> Side 1
> ...


 

 there are 100s of academy recordings with sir neville marriner --- all of them sound very good, some of them are astounding ..  on the argo label.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I haven't listened to my 7236s in a long time, but I would say not much similarity. By comparison the 7236 is more "electronic" and "analytic". Also don't know about the Bendix. I do know there is very little similarity between my Mullard 6080s and the GECs.
> 
> If you decide to buy this pair of GECs and don't like them, I'll buy them from you at your cost.


 
 I have to pass on it for others to try. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 4 RCA 6080s and 2 Bendix 6080wb are on their way plus I'm really enjoying the tones from the tubes I've so far.
  
 ...and last night I've just bought 6 vinyl classical box sets of Beethoven's 9 symphonies, Bach, Elgar, Chopin, Mendelsson and Frans Bruggen after Howie gave the green light to ahead.


----------



## geetarman49

lord raven said:


> Awesome
> 
> @geetarman49 Thank you very much, the train must be bullet.


 

 we have no bullet trains here.  our trains (lrt for light rail transit) can take you from pt a to pt b in 10 min.  pt a = south side of street; pt b = north side of same street.
  
 we also have bridges that are 2+ yr behind schedule. the city engineering dept has suggested that these projects are just so complex and huge that it is unwise to impose arbitrary deadlines and schedules and something more akin to ... long ... and longer ... might be more accurate descriptions for projection completion times 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.   city council begs to differ.


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> there are 100s of academy recordings with sir neville marriner --- all of them sound very good, some of them are astounding ..  on the argo label.


 
 Now Gman is tempting me with more St Martin's. At this point, it's better to get more vinyls than tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

I am considering these 6080's but I have a problem with seller's that do not offer returns.  You have no recourse for return if the tubes do not measure up. Saying they test strong as new tubes, no gas or shorts is way short of giving a recourse is the tubes don't perform as you would expect. Saying a tube tests as new, is not the same as giving an actual value. The old stand alone tube testers you used to find at the drug store or 5 and 10 cent stores, were set up the same way, gave a reading that you had to interpret  There was good and really good poor and bad, but nothing definitive.  Plus they had the replacement tubes in the cabinet underneath the testier.  If a seller offers the same nomenclature and returns available whole different ball game. If they were cheap tubes, not a big deal if they are not good, but at those prices, I would want a return possible.  My feelings are if a seller is that good and reliable he would stand behind his product. I think I will pass. Congrats on the vinyl UT


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> Now Gman is tempting me with more St Martin's. At this point, it's better to get more vinyls than tubes.


 

 there are so many good ones it's hard to go wrong ... absolutely lovely and natural sounding.  when i started buying these i often didn't have a clue as to what the music was ... didn't matter ... every single one i purchased was good.
  
 i don't know what i'd choose for my numero uno classical recording ... arnold's english, scottish and cornish dances on lyrita (or pioneer) would be right up there.


----------



## UntilThen

These box sets. 9 LPs in the Beethoven box. If they aren't good I can blame Howie.


----------



## Spork67

connieflyer said:


> I am considering these 6080's but I have a problem with seller's that do not offer returns.  You have no recourse for return if the tubes do not measure up. Saying they test strong as new tubes, no gas or shorts is way short of giving a recourse is the tubes don't perform as you would expect. Saying a tube tests as new, is not the same as giving an actual value. The old stand alone tube testers you used to find at the drug store or 5 and 10 cent stores, were set up the same way, gave a reading that you had to interpret  There was good and really good poor and bad, but nothing definitive.  Plus they had the replacement tubes in the cabinet underneath the testier.  If a seller offers the same nomenclature and returns available whole different ball game. If they were cheap tubes, not a big deal if they are not good, but at those prices, I would want a return possible.  My feelings are if a seller is that good and reliable he would stand behind his product. I think I will pass. Congrats on the vinyl UT


 
 He does have %100 feedback, so it seems unlikely other buyers have been disappointed.
 I will resist the urge though - 4 x EL3N's and another dual adapter, when I wasn't going to buy_ any _more tubes - already exceeded my quota for the fortnight.


----------



## louisxiawei

Howdy gents,
  
 Hope you are having a good time during this weekend.
  
 I think I find something new (maybe new to me) to improve the sound of my system significantly. (Not quite relevant to the Elise or tube, but do can remove my previous prejudice against Mullard 6080WA)
  
 I was quite unsatisfied with my combo of my new DAC exasound E12 and Mullard 6080WA + EL3N for this whole week. After struggling and bearing those analytical, over-sonic sound, I told myself "sounds not so good -->Can't be the Elise's fault --> Must be something wrong with the DAC setting".
  
 I did a few review check on the internet. Lots of people claimed that a good DAC either to be PCM good or DSD good but not both.
  
 Since PCM sounds terrible on my DAC, and reviews say it's a DSD native DAC. So I upsampled all the music from Tidal to DSD256. (Roon bridged with HQ player, upsampling the streaming FLAC from Tidal).
  
 Now I'm happy again. The sound is not analytical anymore, tube lushness comes back again with proper sonic, bright sounding.


----------



## connieflyer

I didvthe same thing. I have my psaudio dac set to upsample to dsd quaity


----------



## louisxiawei

connieflyer said:


> I didvthe same thing. I have my psaudio dac set to upsample to dsd quaity


 
 and how's your result? I mean mine is so obvious. On the HQplayer, I A/B compared the DSD and PCM for the same song from Tidal. The sound is just totally different.
  
 Analytical and sonic from PCM while warm and musical from DSD. I guess it must be relevant to the processing difference of  DSD and PCM of the DAC.


----------



## UntilThen

Nice DACs from both of you. exaSound E12 and PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC. Great specs and good reviews. Everyone's setup is different and unique but have Elise as the amp. I'm sure you're getting great music in your setup.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Nice DACs from both of you. exaSound E12 and PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC. Great specs and good reviews. Everyone's setup is different and unique but have Elise as the amp. I'm sure you're getting great music in your setup.


 
 Thanks to you, UT. Let me abandon the SS-amp and go for the Elise without regret and will never come back to SS-amp. Before that, Beyerdynamic A2 was on my wishlist. How naive! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You should upgrade your DAC one day.  Elise deserves more than NAD D1050. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  If Elise has lots of ads like Woo Audio, it will be two times more expensive, so a £1000 level DAC for Elise worth the investment.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey all, no news from me today. Just a question. Can anyone recommend a good small tube such as 68NP or 6DJ8? I'm interested to find a small driver tube that is extra clear & clean sounding with tight dynamics. (besides C3G / 6SN7). Then I'll still need to order an adapter too. Thanks!


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks to you, UT. Let me abandon the SS-amp and go for the Elise without regret and will never come back to SS-amp. Before that, Beyerdynamic A2 was on my wishlist. How naive!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 There are no shortages of good DACs in the market, of varying price. For now the NAD is good enough. Nothing offensive, good reviews and doesn't break the bank. Sounds good to me.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Hey all, no news from me today. Just a question. Can anyone recommend a good small tube such as 68NP or 6DJ8? I'm interested to find a small driver tube that is extra clear & clean sounding with tight dynamics. (besides C3G / 6SN7). Then I'll still need to order an adapter too. Thanks!


 
 Haven't use these for a while but the Voskhod 6N23P 1975 sounds good in Elise and more importantly, no hum.


----------



## jelt2359

I have a custom all lundahl trafo, fully caps upgraded EL3N amp on its way to me. 

Anyone tried rolling different types of EL3N's?


----------



## UntilThen

jelt2359 said:


> I have a custom all lundahl trafo, fully caps upgraded EL3N amp on its way to me.
> 
> Anyone tried rolling different types of EL3N's?


 
 We've mainly use Philips EL3N. There are not too many varieties out there. 
  
 Glenn's amp must be on the way to you. Be interested to hear your impressions.


----------



## jelt2359

Thanks. Good to hear. My first el3n amp, so won't have a base of comparison. I do like myself a good tube amp though, probably have 100 tubes now with a good collection of 2a3, 300b, 5 volt rectifiers and of course 6sn7.


----------



## UntilThen

7N7 are the loctal (8 pins) equivalent of 6SN7 and they are sweet sounding with a very clear tone, the likes of Sylvania 6SN7. Best of all, the price is still cheap. Search on eBay. You'll need adapters which I'll link below. A step up from the stock drivers.
  

  
 You have a choice of 'gold' adapters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-7N7-7F7-TO-6SN7GT-B65-6SL7-tube-converter-adapter-/201320848428?hash=item2edfa85c2c:g:qrYAAOSwMmBVuaXh
  
 or Ebony
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2pc-7N7-7F7-TO-6SN7-6SL7-tube-converter-adapter-for-you-amp-/191571501320?hash=item2c9a8d2108:g:5CcAAOSwMORW63WZ
  
 The tall ones are more highly regarded but I've not heard those. I've only the standard Raytheon 7N7. I don't think brands matter. You can try it.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hey all, no news from me today. Just a question. Can anyone recommend a good small tube such as 68NP or 6DJ8? I'm interested to find a small driver tube that is extra clear & clean sounding with tight dynamics. (besides C3G / 6SN7). Then I'll still need to order an adapter too. Thanks!


 
  
 I've used several 6DJ8/ECC88 tubes as drivers with various power tubes in Elise and they all sounded very good. Not so euphonic as some other tube types, but fast, accurate and dynamic.
  
 The ones I used were Bugle Boy, Mullard, GE 'smoked glass', Tesla and Tungsram. They all have their differing sound effects. The cleanest and most articulate were Tesla and Tungsram. Sweetest were Bugle Boy and Mullard. Warmest was the GE. I would think your best bets would be the Mullard, Tesla or Tungsram.
  
 On a different theme, this weekend I've been experimenting with warming up the sound to play some CD's of vintage opera singers which are full of the original pops and other noises. I've chanced upon what I think could be an excellent combination. Utterly musical and euphonic with all the detail, and very easy on the ear. A forwardish sound, but so pleasant it never feels claustrophobic. Voluptuous. 
  
 It's vintage 4 pack EL3N's with a pair of* 6N30P-EV *drivers (Sovtek). 
  
 I had these drivers for LD and G1217amps but never used them as they were just too warm and 'bloomy'- but with Elise they synergise so well with 4 pack I'm keeping them in after the weekend to try them on some other music. Grand piano though certainly sounds 'grand' with this combo.
  
  

  
  
 EDIT: These are *not* 6N30P-DR tubes. Would love to hear how they sound in Elise but far too expensive for me.


----------



## jelt2359

untilthen said:


> Glenn's amp must be on the way to you. Be interested to hear your impressions.


 
 Well, there aren't too many EL3N amps out there, and Glenn typically has a long queue so I consider myself incredibly fortunate that he had one ready to ship immediately!
  
 He also modded it to v2 for me before shipping. So now it's an EL3N amp that takes 5V rectifiers, although he also included an adaptor to use the 4 volter with side pins.


----------



## UntilThen

jelt2359 said:


> Well, there aren't too many EL3N amps out there, and Glenn typically has a long queue so I consider myself incredibly fortunate that he had one ready to ship immediately!
> 
> He also modded it to v2 for me before shipping. So now it's an EL3N amp that takes 5V rectifiers, although he also included an adaptor to use the 4 volter with side pins.


 
 A well crafted EL3N tube amp by Glenn would be one to sample. With the superior lundahl transformer, it's a work of art. I consider EL3N sound to be special. HD800 and T1 will be a perfect fit with that amp.
  
 Well you can tell us if your other headphones works well with it too. You are fortunate indeed. No waiting time. Congrats.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> It's vintage 4 pack EL3N's with a pair of* 6N30P-EV *drivers (Sovtek).


 
 Certainly looks vintage.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Certainly looks vintage.


 
  
 Yeah- they are well burned in though.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 They came from an auction of 'junk' from an old abandoned house. Like this one:


----------



## connieflyer

@HOWIE13Hey, where did you get the picture of my house, no one is allowed on the property.  You can see me in the upstairs window the second one from the end, where i have my laboratory.  That is me with my arms outstretched! HaaaaaaHaaaaaaaHaaaaaa!


----------



## connieflyer

Here is a photo from the early 1970's after I turned in my Fischer 400 tube amp and went to Pioneer 9100 series SS. The beginning of a long road back to tubes! Wife made me build a cabinet for books with doors so the ugly SS amp did not show, Wharfdale speakers in the corners. of the room


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> @HOWIE13Hey, where did you get the picture of my house, no one is allowed on the property.  You can see me in the upstairs window the second one from the end, where i have my laboratory.  That is me with my arms outstretched! HaaaaaaHaaaaaaaHaaaaaa!


 
  
 LOL
  
  

  
  
 This is a close up of you at that window- always good to put a face to a name- though judging by your most recent post you have definitely improved your looks since then.


----------



## UntilThen

LOL you can't be that good looking CF.


----------



## connieflyer

In the photo you notice i am pointing to the kitchen, :this way to the feast"!  Did not have many kids knocking on my door at Halloween! Don't understand it!


----------



## connieflyer

Acutually I am! Ha got you. Are you up late or early, lost track of time here, Couldn't sleep so here I am, still to dark to walk the dog although he keeps checking with me, he complains if I have more than one cup of coffee first.  He expects to go for a walk eaarly, come home get feed and then take a nap.  Doesn't sound to bad now that I think of it


----------



## UntilThen

Just remember when it's morning for you, it's night for me. 9:33pm. Sunday.


----------



## connieflyer

And you are entering Spring time now?  Got to start using my head, well now winter is coming I suppose I will have somewhere to put my hat anyways.  Better get the leash out.  Conner is pacing to go for his walk.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> In the photo you notice i am pointing to the kitchen, :this way to the feast"!  Did not have many kids knocking on my door at Halloween! Don't understand it!


 
  
 That's good way of keeping those pesky kids away. hahaha


----------



## UntilThen

I'm mid way through Spring. Pretty soon it's one year anniversary for my Elise.


----------



## whirlwind

jelt2359 said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Glenn's amp must be on the way to you. Be interested to hear your impressions.
> ...


 
 Very nice, you are in for a real treat.
  
 This thing should power planar headphones with ease
  
 Great gear you have, by the way.


----------



## DecentLevi

Howie and UT, thanks for your advice on smaller tubes - will check into it later. Seems almost as if power tubes make a larger difference than drivers, but moreso I think soundstage is more effected by power tubes. I'm trying to balance out some of the soft dynamics / warm tone of some of my powers such as RCA 6as7G and 6080's, with tight/sharp/fast little driver tubes.
  
 About the Mimby DAC. Just wait a minute, then it auto-chooses the source which is connected to it - that's how I do it.
  
 Quote:


howie13 said:


> I read this morning that the Chinese are making copies of GEC stickers. It's good we have our 'resident' experts to help us.
> 
> http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/


 
 How much would you buy my Sylvania 6080 tubes if I were to put a GEC sticker on it?


----------



## frederick-rea

Pay attention that 6336B is 6.3 volts but *5 amps*


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 I my Little Dot MKIII days we explored several different 6N30 tubes, but as power tubes. One US manufacturer hyped up the DR tubes and called it a "supertube", and the prices went through the ceiling. (The current going rate is $250 each).
  
 I never tried them, but the people that did claimed that the superiority of the the DR version only was incremental and not worth the extra expense.
  
 Do you have any garden variety 6N6P, 6N6P-i or 6N6P-IR or similar tubes to compare to your 6H30 Sovteks?
  
 Speaking of abandoned houses, people were still living in this house:
  

  
 But nearby I found this place that really looks abandoned:
  

  
 And this philosophical reflection:
  

  
 Smart guy - Chuck; must have been a tube roller.....
  
 These pictures were taken a little over a year ago going on a bike ride on an old abandoned railroad that had been turned into a walking/biking path. The dates on the graves were from the mid 1800's.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> I my Little Dot MKIII days we explored several different 6N30 tubes, but as power tubes. One US manufacturer hyped up the DR tubes and called it a "supertube", and the prices went through the ceiling. (The current going rate is $250 each).
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 That was some spooky bike ride, Mordy.
  
 As to 6N6P tubes, I used them sometimes in my G1217 amps and really found very little difference between the different types.
  
 I am looking at some notes I made way back and I wrote that the 6N6P was warm, mellifluous, liquid gold, nice sound stage, not overly detailed in the treble.
  
 -ir was similar, maybe slightly less depth of sound and the -i had more depth and treble detail than the standard 6N6P, similar to a good ECC88.
  
 This was with G1217 amps and the tubes will have come from different factories, which might make a difference too.
  
 I'm really enjoying the 6N30P in Elise, listening to some Baroque and Choral, maintains the detail, rhythm and integrity of the music whilst providing a warm glow in a big sound stage. 
  
 I won't be paying out loads for the DR from what you say-quite a relief actually as I'm saving up for new cans.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 EDIT:  'liquid gold'- OMG, can't believe I really wrote that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 EDIT, AGAIN: tried the 6N6P's in Elise, sound nice but the 6N30P has a bigger soundstage.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
_'About the Mimby DAC. Just wait a minute, then it auto-chooses the source which is connected to it - that's how I do it.'_
  
 Thanks DL- I guess I'm just too impatient!


----------



## HOWIE13

...not quite finished for the night.
  
 Elise and 4 pack/6n30p have metamorphosed into a huge clarinet which is engulfing me.
  
 Must share this lovely moment with you:


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 Here is a very polished early big band version of Tiger Rag with excellent string bass playing (slap style) by Vince Giordano:


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> Here is a very polished early big band version of Tiger Rag with excellent string bass playing (slap style) by Vince Giordano:




  
 Cheers Mordy. That vid isn't loading for me just now- I'll try a little later though.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> ...not quite finished for the night.
> 
> Elise and 4 pack/6n30p have metamorphosed into a huge clarinet which is engulfing me.
> 
> Must share this lovely moment with you:




 Thanks so much Howie. I can't even begin to count the wonderful musical memories that would have been lost to me forever had it not been for our Elise community. Sleep well my friend )))


----------



## UntilThen

Stranger on the shore is lovely. I have no internet the whole night and they are still working on it.

Listening with Samsung earbud on the edge. Life is simple and good before the arrival of tubes.

Gman is sending me a monk. Will see what all this vegans is about.


----------



## connieflyer

How cruel to make you endure without internet access, why that is simply barbaric. Hope you get it back soon, Don


----------



## UntilThen

It's a major outage with no eta. Fortunately I've my 1TB of music and the vinyls.

I'm listening to Blue Dream by Fiona Joy Hawkins.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Four years ago hurricane Sandy hit this area and tens of thousands of trees fell down and knocked out power - we were without electricity for 8 days. Worse than not having heat and not being able to drive because of blocked streets was the acute internet withdrawal.....I know how it feels.
  
 Re the Monk earbuds - are they Gen 2?


----------



## UntilThen

Still without internet. Gale wind swept through Victoria last night. Many homes without power so internet isn't that important in this situation.

I don't know if it's Gen. 2.

I had ATH-IM50 before but couldn't get use to the over ear cable and exchange it for ATH-M50. Both had nice solid bass and a rich midrange. Nice to listen with for non critical listening.
Eventually sold the M50 because the fit is terrible.

I don't expect too much from a earbud. Might compare it with my Samsung earbud. 

Using Fiio X5, Ipod Classic and my S7 Edge as source.


----------



## Spork67

Visseaux drivers from 1956 are teamed with TS 5998s of a similar vintage.
 They sound as good as they look.
 Not quite as dynamic or as large a sound stage as the EL3N, but at least with some tracks a touch more musical - and sound stage and dynamics still more than adequate.
 Thanks again for your advice @UntilThen


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Still without internet. Gale wind swept through Victoria last night. Many homes without power so internet isn't that important in this situation.
> 
> I don't know if it's Gen. 2.
> 
> ...


 
 Better to lose the Monks when your Edge explodes than your T1


----------



## frederick-rea

Revisiting 6F8G drivers with 4 EL3N like powers. Maybe better to my ears than full ELN3 with Audeze LCD-XC. I would like to know opinions of the RCA, Sylvania and Tung Sol different brands regarding soundstage and deeper (high and low)


----------



## pctazhp

frederick-rea said:


> Revisiting 6F8G drivers with 4 EL3N like powers. Maybe better to my ears than full ELN3 with Audeze LCD-XC. I would like to know opinions of the RCA, Sylvania and Tung Sol different brands regarding soundstage and deeper (high and low)


 
 I can't really comment on the 6F8G and I don't do much tube rolling anymore. I have a lot of different drivers that are often mentioned here, but most of them just gather dust now. My Sylvania 6SN7-WGTs are wonderful with my 5998 powers. Great soundstage and wonderfully balanced FR from bottom to top (with a little sparkle on top that is icing on the cake). However, they do not match well with my GEC 6080s. Sterile and uninviting.
  
 On the other hand, EL3Ns driving the GECs is pure heaven. I'm sure others will have more complete responses to you question.


----------



## frederick-rea

Thank you for your opinion pctazhp. Me too, I leave furious rolling. I bought one pair of GEC's and I found (with my ears, with my setup, EAD DAC and Audeze LCD-XC) that with the highs I have some kind of metallic sparkles specially with female voices such as Lucinda Williams in her last double CD (Feb 2016). I am trying to control those highs and make them more analogique


----------



## HOWIE13

frederick-rea said:


> Thank you for your opinion pctazhp. Me too, I leave furious rolling. I bought one pair of GEC's and I found (with my ears, with my setup, EAD DAC and Audeze LCD-XC) that with the highs I have some kind of metallic sparkles specially with female voices such as Lucinda Williams in her last double CD (Feb 2016). I am trying to control those highs and make them more analogique


 
  
 I'm using RCA black flat plate 6F8G tubes as drivers with 4 EL3N's and the set -up sounds very good to my ears. Generous sound-stage, warm sounding but plenty detail and no problems with over-brightness with female vocals. No microphonics. Using Mimby DAC and AKG 702,712; X2 and HD650. 
  
 I think comparisons between the various makers of these tubes, as you request, will be difficult as there are several different versions. For instance, there are round and rectangular micas and black and grey flat and round plates. I don't think anyone has looked at them in any detail with Elise as far as I am aware- though they are on FA's approved list of drivers.
  
 You may just have to buy some and try for yourself.
  
 This seller is offering EI 6F8G tubes, which are RCA re-brands, at a reasonable price:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272311760962?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## geetarman49

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> ...
> 
> Re the Monk earbuds - are they Gen 2?


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> ...
> 
> I don't know if it's Gen. 2.
> 
> ...


 
  
 these are monk plus.  i hated them when i first put them on --- thought they sounded awful --- but then next day, the monk appeared.


----------



## frederick-rea

I asked because I am using 2 RCA 6F8G as drivers and 2 + 2 EL3N as powers and (for me) the sound is more intimate but with enormous much detail better and soundstage (try Chesky Binaural Amber Rubarth - I'm in heaven) than with the 2 + 4 EL3N. I also have a pair of Sylvanias, but one of them died today and do not know if I repeat or go to another brand


----------



## geetarman49

decentlevi said:


> Hey all, no news from me today. Just a question. Can anyone recommend a good small tube such as 68NP or 6DJ8? I'm interested to find a small driver tube that is extra clear & clean sounding with tight dynamics. (besides C3G / 6SN7). Then I'll still need to order an adapter too. Thanks!


 
  
 might i proffer pcc88 (if you can find at a reasonable price).  7v tube but it works fine in 6v applications.


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,
  
 Are you sure the Sylvania tube died? If it has a white coating on the glass it lost the vacuum and is dead, but in my experience tubes that suddenly don't work may only need a cleaning of the pins to come back to life.


----------



## DecentLevi

geetarman49 said:


> might i proffer pcc88 (if you can find at a reasonable price).  7v tube but it works fine in 6v applications.


 
 Thanks. Is the PCC88 tube clear with fast / hard hitting dynamics? If so, which brand of this tube? And does it work with the likes of a 6DJ8 adapter?


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Better to lose the Monks when your Edge explodes than your T1


 
 My internet is back and fast at a 114mbps.
  
 Poor Samsung. They took a bad hit with exploding Note 7. I brought in a nearly new Note 4 but with a crack screen to the Samsung dealer for repair.  The next day I got a message saying that they will replace it with a S7 ... for free. So hang on to your exploding phones.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Visseaux drivers from 1956 are teamed with TS 5998s of a similar vintage.
> They sound as good as they look.
> Not quite as dynamic or as large a sound stage as the EL3N, but at least with some tracks a touch more musical - and sound stage and dynamics still more than adequate.
> Thanks again for your advice @UntilThen


 
 My pleasure Sporky. You've a good mix of tubes giving a wide range of tones now. Elise has become more interesting as a result.
  
 The Visseaux or Mazda 6N7G are outstanding drivers but I keep returning to EL3N as drivers though. It's what the T1 needs. Smooths out the highs and gives it a full body.


----------



## frederick-rea

mordy said:


> Hi FR,
> 
> Are you sure the Sylvania tube died? If it has a white coating on the glass it lost the vacuum and is dead, but in my experience tubes that suddenly don't work may only need a cleaning of the pins to come back to life.


 
 Really no white coat on top (clear) I can´t see nothing on the base and meddle glass because they are coated (grey and silver). I will try another time to clean those pins again. Thank you


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> these are monk plus.  i hated them when i first put them on --- thought they sounded awful --- but then next day, the monk appeared.


 
 I'm surprised at the many reviews for these $5 earbuds. If a monk appears, I would run for cover. I think they should call it something else. 
  
 Nevertheless my interest is pique. I'll give it a listen.


----------



## geetarman49

decentlevi said:


> Thanks. Is the PCC88 tube clear with fast / hard hitting dynamics? If so, which brand of this tube? And does it work with the likes of a 6DJ8 adapter?


 

 no adapter req'd --- pin for pin compatible <edit>(i mean it is pin for pin compatible with 6dj8 - not directly useable in elise w/o adapter). 
  
 i forget which one i have --- siemens, valvo, amperex?  right now, it's lost amongst the tubes in the chest of drawers & i'm just too lazy to dig everything out today.    i really liked this tube (used with earlier tube amps, not the elise) with 6as7g.  also, maybe check out telefunken e188cc.  iirc, in my previous setup it was very lively, exceptional dynamics with great clarity but not overly warm in tonality - even better than the pcc88.  very hard to find for a good price & beware of fakes.
  
 there's a bit of a mistrust with these 6v jobs (6dj8) -- quite a few of them turn out to be too noisy &  this spurred the development of the 12v series (12ax7, 12au7, 12at7). unfortunately, u cannot use these in elise w/o external biasing.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> I'm surprised at the many reviews for these $5 earbuds. If a monk appears, I would run for cover. I think they should call it something else.
> 
> Nevertheless my interest is pique. I'll give it a listen.


 
  
 keep in mind, it is an earbud & despite some overwhelming praise in some quarters, it is no hd800, t1 or even hd600. i do not know how these over-the-top accolades come to fruition.
  
 when one's hunger can be abated by a bowl of 'jook' then a monk will also suffice.
 <edit>  i've had some great jook in the past -- easily up there with the best steaks i've had.


----------



## geetarman49

@DecentLevi   .... have a gander at this summary:   https://www.tubeworld.com/7308.htm
  
 if you can find a nos pr of these for a decent price, 10,000 hr life may make it worthwhile.


----------



## Oskari

geetarman49 said:


> there's a bit of a mistrust with these 6v jobs (6dj8) -- quite a few of them turn out to be too noisy &  this spurred the development of the 12v series (12ax7, 12au7, 12at7). unfortunately, u cannot use these in elise w/o external biasing.




Where did you get that (hi)story? The ECC88/6DJ8 is a later type than those so-called 12-volt tubes (with which you can use both 6 and 12 V heating).


----------



## mordy

Hi g49,
  
 You probably meant external power and not external biasing.
  
 It is not a problem to run 12V tubes in the Elise as long as you have an external power source. Not long ago somebody was selling Tung Sol round plate 12V tubes (12SN7). The 6V versions go for megadollars, but the 12V version are significantly less expansive and supposedly the same except for the voltage.
  
 Interestingly, this seller claimed that these tubes had enough transconductance even at 6V to be acceptable in a 6V amp. I tried very briefly running some other 12SN7 tubes that I have on 6V. (NOT RECOMMENDED - don't try it!)
  
 It did work, but the gain was much lower, and I had to crank up the Elise as well as my power amp to almost full volume to get a descent enough sound level. However, the amp started to get too hot and I had to shut it off. An inquiry to Feliks Audio simply stated that the amp was not designed for this, and therefore not recommended.
  
 As a rule, some desirable tubes are much less expensive in 12V versions than 6V versions. Mrs Xu Ling sells octal adapters with heater leads for an external power source. It is not too difficult to rig it up - any old 12V wall wart with enough amperage will do.


----------



## UntilThen

*STOP PRESS*
  
 I have a spine tingling, hormones inducing moment with 6xEL3N and Patricia Barber. Headphone none other than T1. It's Wagner's tubes of choice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Picture taken in Jan 2016. It's been that long since I've been captivated by 6xEL3N.


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys, please welcome my little mickey mouse, so far it is blowing my mind all alone  The sound is warm and wide open, even on a T1, that is a huge surprise for me. Struggled to connect it with Elise and I finally did. For some reason it is not hitting the sweet spot with Elise as an external amp, initially listened to it with stock 6SN7 and TS7236, then switched to EL3N/5998, still not hitting the sweet spot. 
  
 I got to read a lot about it, for now, the small wonder is mind-blowing on its own, I mean wow. How could a device drive a 600 Ohms phones without the use of op-amps, alone is mind blowing proprietary technology  Mojo owners on this thread, tell me what's going on?


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> geetarman49 said:
> 
> 
> > there's a bit of a mistrust with these 6v jobs (6dj8) -- quite a few of them turn out to be too noisy &  this spurred the development of the 12v series (12ax7, 12au7, 12at7). unfortunately, u cannot use these in elise w/o external biasing.
> ...




Let's insert this in the above: because those particular types have heaters that can be connected in either series or parallel.


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Mojo owners on this thread, tell me what's going on?


 
 If Mickey Mouse isn't getting along with Alice, it means you better send the Osram 6as7g to me.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> If Mickey Mouse isn't getting along with Alice, it means you better send the Osram 6as7g to me.


 
  
 Hahaha  You will eventually get a hold of Osram, you know that. Mickey mouse is going to burn in over night, let's see if it can withstand the pain  Otherwise, it will be my Mobile Joy!


----------



## mordy

After reading the article from JACMusic about fake tubes I am a little apprehensive: Is this the real deal?
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-G-E-C-CV2984-6080WA-6AS7G-NOS-NIB-same-Date-Code-/391585396416?hash=item5b2c4ef6c0:g:ctYAAOSwLnBX9hrk


----------



## UntilThen

It's a good price for a fake.


----------



## pctazhp

lord raven said:


> Hahaha  You will eventually get a hold of Osram, you know that. Mickey mouse is going to burn in over night, let's see if it can withstand the pain  *Otherwise, it will be my Mobile Joy!*


 
 I think you better get ready to make it your Mobile Joy. Elise is infallible. If Mickey doesn't play well with Alice he is obviously a seriously flawed mouse


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I think you better get ready to make it your Mobile Joy. Elise is infallible. If Mickey doesn't play well with Alice he is obviously a seriously flawed mouse


 
 I told him to get NAD d1050 but he wouldn't listen. It can even do balance mode.
  
 Peter Pialis in his review use the NAD with HeadAmp GS-X Mk2 and Sennheiser HD800s and said  'I was quite happy with the resulting experience. The NAD D1050 offered an outstandingly clear performance that was free of any blurring together of the individual players'
  
Further he use the NAD with Stax SR-009 / Liquid Lightning 2 (LL2) and proclaimed that 'the D1050 was able to keep up with this very demanding setup.'
  
@louisxiawei now you know why I didn't upgrade my NAD. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://headphone.guru/nad-d1050-review/


----------



## HOWIE13

Mojo needs about 100 hours of burn in to reach a sweet spot and as for working with Elise, I've had no issue with the sound, using a few different tube combos but mainly 6 pack.
  
 One thing you might do, which I find opens up the sound even more, is to connect each output to a separate Elise channel, but it still sounds great just conventonally connected.


----------



## frederick-rea

frederick-rea said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi FR,
> ...


 
 After a good cleaning Sylvania is *OK. Thank you mordy*


----------



## geetarman49

oskari said:


> Where did you get that (hi)story? The ECC88/6DJ8 is a later type than those so-called 12-volt tubes (with which you can use both 6 and 12 V heating).


 

 good question ... i could have sworn this is what i remember from my readings of tube history ... oh well, as roseanne roseannadanna used to say ... nevermind ...
  
 but i do like my raytheon 5751 ... a lot.


----------



## geetarman49

mordy said:


> After reading the article from JACMusic about fake tubes I am a little apprehensive: Is this the real deal?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-G-E-C-CV2984-6080WA-6AS7G-NOS-NIB-same-Date-Code-/391585396416?hash=item5b2c4ef6c0:g:ctYAAOSwLnBX9hrk


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> It's a good price for a fake.


 
  
 is it real or is it memorex ---- is it real or is it g.e.c.?   if it's fake, then it is bloody good job.  but there is something about the printing on the box end flaps ... need to check with a known, real box.


----------



## connieflyer

Feedback on the seller is positive, ebayer since 2008, 778 positive 2 neutral and 2 negative.  BId up to $41 now. 9 bids, interesting to see where this goes, and if they are real


----------



## mordy

Hi F-R,
  
 Happy to hear that it worked! I had a tube that stopped working and I was going to throw it away - it was sitting there for a year and a half. One day it fell into my mind to scrape the pins with a pocket knife and voila: it worked fine again, so I learned my lesson.


----------



## mordy

Hi g49,
  
 Read the second paragraph - JACMusic mentions a seller in Switzerland:
  
 http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/
  
 These GECs are sold from a seller in Switzerland but I have no idea if it is the same one or not.
  
 Caveat Emptor


----------



## frederick-rea

mordy said:


> Hi F-R,
> 
> Happy to hear that it worked! I had a tube that stopped working and I was going to throw it away - it was sitting there for a year and a half. One day it fell into my mind to scrape the pins with a pocket knife and voila: it worked fine again, so I learned my lesson.


----------



## geetarman49

mordy said:


> Hi g49,
> 
> Read the second paragraph - JACMusic mentions a seller in Switzerland:
> 
> ...


 

 caveat emptor, indeed.   he also has this listing, which also causes the neck hairs to bristle:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-Philips-ECC82-12AU7-NOS-NIB-Disc-Getter-/391582847647?hash=item5b2c28129f:g:nC4AAOSwzaJX82hp
  
 (any time i see or read disc getters, my initial thoughts are russky or east european origin)


----------



## geetarman49

thankfully, i'm not buying any more tubes (famous last words ... repeated often enough ... are ignored).
  
 but ut has posted an image which is reminding me to ... dig out those other 4 el3ns.


----------



## geetarman49

@UntilThen   ...  looks like your tube has landed ... now, depends upon efficiency of your customs & ozpost.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> @louisxiawei now you know why I didn't upgrade my NAD.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Haha, I read that review before. I almost read every review on the internet of NAD 1050 and ARCAM irDAC. I was struggling buying the best DAC below £800 before. Tough decision between Arcam irDAC and NAD 1050. Eventually pick the irDAC.
  
 I had an audition of both of them with Lehmann linear amplifier. Personally, I think NAD 1050 colours the music too much compared to ARCAM irDAC. Although balanced mode seems to be appealing, but the addition of headphone amplifier just pushed me away. 
  
 I just want a serious pure DAC, any DAC with headphone amplifier is not serious for me. So DAC like Mytek Brooklyn is a toy with lots of other functions and a fancy display instead of a serious DAC in my opinion, even dac like £8000 Chord DAVE is not serious for me as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .
  
 No integrated hp amp in the DAC please. I just need my Elise as amp and leave her alone.


----------



## Oskari

geetarman49 said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > After reading the article from JACMusic about fake tubes I am a little apprehensive: Is this the real deal?
> ...


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Hi g49,
> 
> Read the second paragraph - JACMusic mentions ...




Jac's not without a point but he's a bit of an alarmist.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Jac's not without a point but he's a bit of an alarmist.


 
 That's true. The thing about GEC though, as he points out, is often the only distinguishing feature is a sticker.
  
 On the other hand, that seller is offering 30 days returns so that's some safeguard at least. Return postage, with insurance, could be expensive though.


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbpT-mOU9a0[/VIDEO]


----------



## DecentLevi

*The SVETLANA 6H13C EXPERIENCE*​  
 Incoming today was these maverick of Svetlana power tubes for my Elise. I'm getting absolutely everything that was good about my RCA 6AS7Gs reviewed here, plus a humongous soundstage, and now an overall sound sig. that is more sweet than euphonic. That is to say thunderous, well controlled bass, sweet engaging mids, smooth yet detailed highs, instrument separation that is superb yet cohesive, and a completely uncanny ability to bring recordings to life with a very vivid sound and grand soundstage / 3D capability.
  

  
 And did I mention this pearl of a tube is even cheaper than the RCAs? There is a pair on eBay now going for only $8!! But it sounds like a $1,000 tube!
  
 These (along with the rest of my chain and new mods to the HD 650) have transformed my HD 650's to sound like an Audeze LCD 2.2 in top flight! I have auditioned them several times and right now, this sound seems definitely on par!
  
*Background*: These are Russian tubes, which were manufactured up until just the 2000's, I believe. More here.
  
*Also known as*: The 6H13C tubes are 6AS7 G class and are also known as 6N13S and ECC230. 
  
*Construction*: The plates appear to be identical to the RCA 6AS7G and look very similar to the 'holy grail' GEC 6AS7G brown base tubes. Compared to the RCA 6AS7G, these have a topmost section that is about twice as tall, and the section below the plates has a unique looking lead-wire design connected to watch battery sized disks, in place of the additional lower plates the RCA's.
  
*Select comparisons*: Although as of yet an indirect comparison, These sound more pleasing / sweet overall than my ST-shaped RCA's with a soundstage seemingly even larger - making these my all time favorite tube to date! Also having recently compared the similar sounding RCA 6AS7G's tubes to my previously favorite combo of rebranded Bendix 6080 + Mullard 6080, I had noted that the RCA's make the Bendix + Mullard sound muddy / congested by comparison.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> I've used several 6DJ8/ECC88 tubes as drivers with various power tubes in Elise and they all sounded very good. Not so euphonic as some other tube types, but fast, accurate and dynamic.
> 
> The ones I used were Bugle Boy, Mullard, GE 'smoked glass', Tesla and Tungsram. They all have their differing sound effects. The cleanest and most articulate were Tesla and Tungsram. Sweetest were Bugle Boy and Mullard. Warmest was the GE. I would think your best bets would be the Mullard, Tesla or Tungsram.
> ...


 
 Well since I work in a tube related department at Tesla Motors, I thought it would only be fitting I'd order the Tesla driver tubes for my Elise you recommended, and shipped from California as well! Super fitting by all accounts of the name, at least. Now I'll see how she is on the road with Elise. 
  
FYI: There is no relation between the former Tesla tube manufacturing co. (was a large, state-owned electrotechnical conglomerate in the former Czechoslovakia.) and Tesla Motors. And the dep't. I work in produces something more akin to metal cooling coils rather than radio valves


----------



## connieflyer

How do they compare to the best combo you have ever heard, the xmas trees?


----------



## UntilThen

Who would have known the stock power tubes is now the holy grail.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Who would have known the stock power tubes is now the holy grail.


 
 Hahaha, indeed.
  
 UT, my stock power tube finally arrived yesterday. You know what? I love it! Prefer the stock tube sound than Mullard 6080WA. The sound from female vocals is so lush like I'm lying on a big pile of cotton. 
  
 Consequently, Mullard 6080WA is now collecting dust in my drawers. But still want to give them a chance with EL3N.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 My EL3N to 6SN7 adapters arrived today also and I've sent an order request to Acoustic Dimension for EL3N. But Peter told me there is no matched pair of EL3N.
  
 What do you think? Is matched pair necessary?


----------



## DecentLevi

At your request, I've just A/B'd these Svetlana 6H13C / (6AS7G) tubes to the 'Christmas tree' setup (6BL7 + dual 6J5 per socket), both with the same 6SN7 drivers... in a word, OMG!!
  
 These Svetlana tubes make the X-mas tree combo sound flat / non-engaging (though somewhat cold which is not always a bad thing), wheras these 6AS7's sound lusher, maybe twice as organic with a more 3D-like soundstage.
  
 Unsure exactly how similar these are to the stock power tubes, as I ordered mine without tubes, but looking at the product page, they do look very similar. 
 Regardless even if these are the stock power tubes, these are superior than all else I've tried.
 Stranger things have happened.


----------



## connieflyer

And to think I did not order any stuck with crappy 5998 and 5998a cog and those
Lousy 6 peak el3n. Boy I wish I had some good tubes


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm emailing Feliks Audio right now to confirm whether or not this is the same tube as used in the stock setup. Regardless, hearing is a very subjective thing. IMO, this *sounds good to me. *




  
 OTOH, maybe there is something special about my Svetlana 6H13C tubes that make them better than stock. Or otherwise, Lukasz was smarter than all of us, because his stock tubes are the best, (so far, IMO) anyway. 
  
 UT I've read you've owned a similar tube before, so maybe you can revisit that comparison to your other top favorite?
 And since both @HOWIE13 and I have very similar hearing perception, I'll bet this tube is a winner for you too.


----------



## UntilThen

Who would have thought the Svetlana 6H13C (aka Elise stock power tubes) is now the holy grail. It's a double facepalm moment.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Who would have thought the Svetlana 6H13C (aka Elise stock power tubes) is now the holy grail. It's a double facepalm moment.


 
 HAHAHA, UT is saying this indirectly: Diminishing return, you Christmas-tree noobs!


----------



## UntilThen

Wow Gman's Bendix arrived and the other Bendix is no where in sight. No sign of the RCA 6080 too.
  
 Box sets of classical LPs arrived too !!!
  
 Louis, the EL3N does not have to be matched. Absolutely does not matter.
  
 Alright, I've been jesting. If you guys like the stock tubes then all good for you. Feliks Audio did pick those drivers and powers for a reason. Low cost and availability ... and not too shabby a sound. That's all I can say though.


----------



## UntilThen

The Monk is here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm listening to the Bendix 6080wb slotted graphite plates with a RCA 6SN7gtb clear glass in DV 336se. The Bendix took a while to heat up. It's playing quite nice now but I'll reserved anymore impressions till I get the other Bendix.
  
 Might try out the Monk in the meantime. Does it need burn it?


----------



## DecentLevi

@geetarman49 thanks for your advice on ECC88 and E188CC. Would like to try some, but am waiting for a better price, if anyone knows where?
 And were you able to find which brand you were using which had the best 'slam' & clarity?
  
 Also how are you enjoying your Elise? And did you get the stock power tubes?
 I think the *SVETLANA 6H13C EXPERIENCE* (which may be stock) is drastically overlooked, and they are absolutely outstanding, newer, bigger, and possibly even technically superior to all else (save for the GEC & Western Electric, and maybe RCA 6AS7G)... and that's even without burn-in!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> @geetarman49
> thanks for your advice on ECC88 and E188CC. Would like to try some, but am waiting for a better price, if anyone knows where?
> And were you able to find which brand you were using which had the best 'slam' & clarity?
> 
> ...




I recently posted about this power tube on the 339 thread and agree it is an outstanding tube, especially for the price. It was my second purchase after the RCA 6AS7G, and I remember preferring the Russian to them. I do think other tubes have their place, including the RCA and especially the Bendix 6080WB and 7236. I still need to hear the Mullard 6080, Chatham 6AS7G, and GEC variants but feel little inclination with my tubes to purchase others. 

I agree the Russian tube is very good.


----------



## DecentLevi

What can I say, some people see what others don't - including Feliks Audio as well. I'm also definitely keeping my Bendix & Mullards, as they may be preferrable for electronic music, as well as at least two of the eight EL3N's, for their pairing as drivers with select powers.
  
 I've updated my top post


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 Those 6H13C are my stock tube and they are good. They have a big sound stage and made a good impression when I first played Elise. For some music though I needed more detail in the upper mid and treble, with more cohesion, and that's where the rolling came in. I think where I felt they lacked a little was in Baroque instrumental music, where I wanted to hear the individual lines of several instruments, playing simultaneously, very clearly. Mids, bass and soundstage no problem though.. There is also a 6H5C tube which looks and sounds somewhat similar.
  
 It also strikes me that we listen to the stock tubes when our amp first arrives and soon move on to try other tubes. Maybe we underestimate the stocks for the very reason we are listening to them before the amp has truly burned in and then tend to forget about them in our eagerness to try new tubes.-just my philosophical thought for today.
  
 I'll have another listen with them.
  
@UntilThen    Do hope you enjoy the records!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> What can I say, some people see what others don't - including Feliks Audio as well. I'm also definitely keeping my Bendix & Mullards, as they may be preferrable for electronic music, as well as at least two of the eight EL3N's, for their pairing as drivers with select powers.
> 
> I've updated my top post


 
  
 The sound you seek for your electronic music I think will be similar to what I seek for Baroque. No fat and flab,- lean, clean and dynamic.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> The Monk is here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 for me, monk needs burn in.  i didn't like the sound at all during the first day ... stopped listening after the 1st hr & just let it play from my laptop.  after a few more hrs next day, i began to understand why it has attracted so much attention.  but there's not much slam in the lower registers ... actually a bit light there & part of that is probably due to getting a good seal/fit.  btw, i never used monk with elise, just from my laptop & pc.


----------



## geetarman49

decentlevi said:


> @geetarman49 thanks for your advice on ECC88 and E188CC. Would like to try some, but am waiting for a better price, if anyone knows where?
> And were you able to find which brand you were using which had the best 'slam' & clarity?
> 
> Also how are you enjoying your Elise? And did you get the stock power tubes?
> I think the *SVETLANA 6H13C EXPERIENCE* (which may be stock) is drastically overlooked, and they are absolutely outstanding, newer, bigger, and possibly even technically superior to all else (save for the GEC & Western Electric, and maybe RCA 6AS7G)... and that's even without burn-in!


 

 damn hard to find good prices on these tubes today (at least from reliable sellers) --- i got mine 3 - 5 yr ago.  i liked telefunken, siemens, amperex in my setup.  also valvo.
 i used them in a hybrid amp with ss output devices so i don't know whether or not this would be indicative of performance out of, say, elise.
 <edit>  & i don't have any matched pairs of them either, so i'll never get to experience them in the likes of elise.
  
 my elise sounds pretty darn good with el3n driving chatham 6as7g into t1, g1 fed by pioneer disc spinner and grace m920 as dac.  i didn't order any stock tubes.
 but my mind, sight & ears have been drawn away this past wk by my new sammie 65ks8500 --- what an awesome tv, & i'm not even talking about blueray or 4k uhd discs, just regular hd cablefeed.


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> damn hard to find good prices on these tubes today (at least from reliable sellers) --- i got mine 3 - 5 yr ago.  i liked telefunken, siemens, amperex in my setup.  also valvo.
> i used them in a hybrid amp with ss output devices so i don't know whether or not this would be indicative of performance out of, say, elise.
> <edit>  & i don't have any matched pairs of them either, so i'll never get to experience them in the likes of elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey g49...sammie?...thought you might have sold mother-in-law for the LG Oled, mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but glad you are impressed with the 8500.
  
 Have to admit to being somewhat bemused by recent 6H13C (6N13S) raving...yes, they are indeed very good and exceptional value-for-money. But far too many aficianados agree that they are not top tier by any means - your Chathams, for example, I personally found were a superior tube in most aspects...as have many others. And there are tubes that surpass the Chathams even without having to slam the poor wallet for my GECs...but if the Russians do it for folks, then great for them - _and_ their wallets lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hey g49...sammie?...thought you might have sold mother-in-law for the LG Oled, mon ami!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I guess it should be no surprise that the stock tubes do a decent job. I don't see how any tube amp manufacturer could offer an amp that doesn't use reasonably price tubes that are readily available and sound good.
  
 From my own personal experience and the long history of this thread and the other two, I think it is evident that significant improvement can be achieved through tube rolling, particularly with good synergy between driver and power tubes.
  
 I, personally, don't understand how each new tube can bring such "astronomical"  improvements. For me I think I would have to build my own auditorium and tweak it carefully to achieve such a dramatic improvement from the stock tubes. But I suppose if such improvements are consistently possible for the person experiencing such improvements that is all that really matters.


----------



## frederick-rea

I’m struggling with arrangements and marriage between drivers and powers synergy on ELISE. Maybe it’s my own point of view, but I found that Powers have more ability for treble and space and Drivers for lows and bass. Any concordance or disagreement with this? Now I have Chatham’s (instead of 2+2 EL3N) and Sylvania 6F8G as drivers (as well from Felix options) and listening to the new album of Wim Mertens – Dust Of Truths and this marriage work special


----------



## hypnos1

frederick-rea said:


> I’m struggling with arrangements and marriage between drivers and powers synergy on ELISE. Maybe it’s my own point of view, but I found that Powers have more ability for treble and space and Drivers for lows and bass. Any concordance or disagreement with this? Now I have Chatham’s (instead of 2+2 EL3N) and Sylvania 6F8G as drivers (as well from Felix options) and listening to the new album of Wim Mertens – Dust Of Truths and this marriage work special


 
  
 Hi f-r...I doubt there's any hard and fast rule here, alas - so much depends on factors other than the particular tubes used of course...signal source; DAC (unless vinyl!!); cables; headphones etc....even one's mains power supply lol! Not to mention one's _*ears!!*_  This is where trial and error can be the only _real_ arbiter for each individual, and which is precisely the appeal of _tube_ amps, of course...especially in an amp with Elise's flexibility! We are all therefore on very shaky ground indeed when trying to make recommendations LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...Many of us have spent many happy(?!!) hours (and a fair bit of money!) experimenting with different combinations before being able to narrow down to favourites - this is the "Never Ending Journey" that many refer to in head-fi land, and comes with mixed blessings! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But is one most of us harbour no regrets for...indeed, can bring an immensely satisfying, edifying and positive experience - especially when in the company of those here...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I wish you all the best in your own journey....CJ


----------



## geetarman49

hypnos1 said:


> Hey g49...sammie?...thought you might have sold mother-in-law for the LG Oled, mon ami!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 i thought about the oled ... but $7k cdn for the 65" e6 ... that was way too much shuck to swallow.  so i'm very happy with the 8500 ... blacks are very black, way super contrast, literally no light bleed at the edges and only minimal bloom with white text on black background.  a momentary & small blooming artifact (very, very occasional incident) does not bother me.  so it is almost perfect (so far) for my needs.  & finally, even tho glossy screen, in my seating location there is almost no visible reflection.
  
 i like the chathams in the elise, but in my asl tube amp (1 driver, 1 output tube), my (prior) osram left no doubt as to which was superior.  as to the russian, i haven't tried them but if i was i would opt for very old stock


----------



## geetarman49

@DecentLevi  ... where are my manners?  ... thank you for the kind words.


----------



## Lord Raven

No one believed in me when I ran stock tubes for good 6 months and did not believe in tube rolling  LOL
  
 I think, with this revelation, new buyers shouldn't worry about expensive tube rolling at all. However, I will always back up Chatham 6AS7G, and EL3N love. My all time favorite sounding tubes.
  
 GEC 6AS7G is on its way, and I am up for a surprise


----------



## geetarman49

lord raven said:


> No one believed in me when I ran stock tubes for good 6 months and did not believe in tube rolling  LOL
> 
> I think, with this revelation, new buyers shouldn't worry about expensive tube rolling at all. However, I will always back up Chatham 6AS7G, and EL3N love. My all time favorite sounding tubes.
> 
> GEC 6AS7G is on its way, and I am up for a surprise


 

 must be a heavy bird ... having a hard time getting off the runway.  
 i wonder how UT is faring with the slotted bendix?  that was some fast delivery.
 i sent yours only 1 day later, but the posties decided to take a 3-day weekend.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 The Monks need to burn in. The owner of the company, Wild (I am not making it up) Lee, claims that they really come into their own after 1500(!) hours. BTW, he is one of the few manufacturers that will answer questions personally, so you can always ask him directly. The email address is on that little card that came with them.
  
 As for the stock Svetlana power tubes, I agree with hypnos1. They are good, but there are better ones.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> The Monks need to burn in. The owner of the company, Wild (I am not making it up) Lee, claims that they really come into their own after 1500(!) hours. BTW, he is one of the few manufacturers that will answer questions personally, so you can always ask him directly. The email address is on that little card that came with them.
> 
> As for the stock Svetlana power tubes, I agree with hypnos1. They are good, but there are better ones.


 
 The other Bandit have arrived but I'm busy atm. Have been trying out the Monk and solitary Bendix for a short while last night. Some surprises there and good surprises. When I get back I'll have a good listen to the pair of Bendix and they are both slotted. One with copper rods and the other steel but both in excellent condition.
  
 The RCA 6080s still haven't arrived but I'm in no hurry.
  
 Absolutely with you regarding the Svetlana 6H13C. There are better ones easily.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> @DecentLevi
> 
> Those 6H13C are my stock tube and they are good. They have a big sound stage and made a good impression when I first played Elise. For some music though I needed more detail in the upper mid and treble, with more cohesion, and that's where the rolling came in. I think where I felt they lacked a little was in Baroque instrumental music, where I wanted to hear the individual lines of several instruments, playing simultaneously, very clearly. Mids, bass and soundstage no problem though.. There is also a 6H5C tube which looks and sounds somewhat similar.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thought this was worth quoting. Yup, those stock-ish 6H13C power tubes are the real deal. Sounds stellar and immaculate. Full bodied, expansive and very lifelike. Just did a brief comparison (using the same two well mastered, lossless test tracks of two genres) of this to the RCA 6AS7G's, Mullard 6080 and Rebranded Bendix - the Bendix sounded slow / flat, Mullards thin / sweet, and RCA's thin / euphonic, but to my ears, the former shined with authority and energy to 'move a small mountain'. Good points folks - either the stock tubes sound that much better after amp burn-in, or maybe mine are somehow different than stock (still waiting to confirm that).
  
 Also I see there may have been some misconceptions over my posts of upgrades to my chain. I have not used the word "drastic" to describe my recent improvements, and surely I haven't used the word "astronomical". I have only been doing my best to make use of the English language to describe moreso what _*is*_ a pleasing sound, rather than being such a massive *step up* from the last chain. Any steps up the audio ladder have been more _*incremental*_ steps rather than _leaps and bounds_... but comparing the bottom to the top step is where you see something akin to an _astronomical_ step.
  
 Also @Lord Raven congrats on the incoming GEC 6AS7G's! We'd enjoy some photos after receiving too!
  
 PS- I am also not saying there are not better power tubes out there, just than what I've tried


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> *Have to admit to being somewhat bemused by recent 6H13C (6N13S) raving.*..yes, they are indeed very good and exceptional value-for-money. But far too many aficianados agree that they are not top tier by any means
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You nail it. Spot on.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> @UntilThen    Do hope you enjoy the records!


 
 Thanks Howie. The LPs are in immaculate condition. No scratch and gleaming black vinyl. Only one of the box shows sign of wear and tear. 6 box sets for $40 is good value. Now to spend time listening to it.


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> i wonder how UT is faring with the slotted bendix?  that was some fast delivery.


 
 Stunning sound from the pair of Bendix 6080wb with Sylvania 6SN7wgt as well as EL3N. Can't stop playing song after song. Review will have to come much later. Just having too much fun now.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Thanks Howie. The LPs are in immaculate condition. No scratch and gleaming black vinyl. Only one of the box shows sign of wear and tear. 6 box sets for $40 is good value. Now to spend time listening to it.


 
 I'm looking forward to that. Karajan recorded several Beethoven Symphony series during his long career. They were all excellent.


----------



## HOWIE13

Enjoyed a nice dawn on the Norwegian Fjords this morning listening to Grieg's Lyric Pieces.  D1050, 6 pack, HE400. What a peach of a combination for solo piano. Stunning sound. I've listened to this CD many times before but was never able to appreciate before the richness of colour in Grieg's harmonies. Here's a short example for anyone not familiar with Grieg.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> Stunning sound from the pair of Bendix 6080wb with Sylvania 6SN7wgt as well as EL3N. Can't stop playing song after song. Review will have to come much later. Just having too much fun now.


 

 haha ... excellent.  now you can start hunting for an original arnold: english, scottish, cornish dances on lyrita label.  <edit> how many $$$$ ??
  
 another vinyl treasure is john renbourn's Sir John A Lot (Of Merrie Englandes Musyk Thyng & Ye Grene Knyghte) ... i bought the windham hill re-release in the late 80s but the original pressing on transatlantic (1968) should be great too.  have a listen:


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Enjoyed a nice dawn on the Norwegian Fjords this morning listening to Grieg's Lyric Pieces.  D1050, 6 pack, HE400. What a peach of a combination for solo piano. Stunning sound. I've listened to this CD many times before but was never able to appreciate before the richness of colour in Grieg's harmonies. Here's a short example for anyone not familiar with Grieg.


 
 Sounds great on my Bendix 6080wb and Valvo C3Gs with T1. Excellent choice of music.


----------



## UntilThen

geetarman49 said:


> another vinyl treasure is john renbourn's Sir John A Lot (Of Merrie Englandes Musyk Thyng & Ye Grene Knyghte) ... i bought the windham hill re-release in the late 80s but the original pressing on transatlantic (1968) should be great too.  have a listen:


 
 Did he copy Sir Lance A Lot. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is great though.


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> No one believed in me when I ran stock tubes for good 6 months and did not believe in tube rolling  LOL
> 
> I think, with this revelation, new buyers shouldn't worry about expensive tube rolling at all. However, I will always back up Chatham 6AS7G, and EL3N love. My all time favorite sounding tubes.
> 
> *GEC 6AS7G is on its way, and I am up for a surprise*


 
  
 Yipee LR...but you need *two*, mon ami...another one on the cards perhaps?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(hope so 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...)....ENJOY!!...
  
 ps. Whatever happened to your Geek Pulse lol?


howie13 said:


> Enjoyed a nice dawn on the Norwegian Fjords this morning listening to Grieg's Lyric Pieces.  D1050, 6 pack, HE400. What a peach of a combination for solo piano. Stunning sound. I've listened to this CD many times before but was never able to appreciate before the richness of colour in Grieg's harmonies. Here's a short example for anyone not familiar with Grieg.




  
 Normally prefer his orchestral work, but this is indeed lovely...and first time I've heard this pianist - she's GOOD!


----------



## Arniesb

untilthen said:


> Did he copy Sir Lance A Lot.   This is great though.


Hey guys, i want to know more about tubes (specifically intrested about tubes which have more presence range and little less lower mids, with tight bass. Got my Sennheiser HD800S and i feel that my A20 have far too much lower mids for it and not tight bass and dip in upper mids. Mids simply have no bite at all... Is there any tubes for Elise which can cure my A20 shortcomings? Dont like muffled presence range. Thanks. And by the way, how upgraded tubes from Feliks Audio Website sound? Thanks a lot.


----------



## Arniesb

Sorry for quoting, pressed accidentally. Im using mobile.


----------



## UntilThen

arniesb said:


> Hey guys, i want to know more about tubes (specifically intrested about tubes which have more presence range and little less lower mids, with tight bass. Got my Sennheiser HD800S and i feel that my A20 have far too much lower mids for it and not tight bass and dip in upper mids. Mids simply have no bite at all... Is there any tubes for Elise which can cure my A20 shortcomings? Dont like muffled presence range. Thanks. And by the way, how upgraded tubes from Feliks Audio Website sound? Thanks a lot.


 
 I'll point you to the person here with a HD800s > @pctazhp  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 He's happy with EL3N and GEC 6080.
  
 Power tubes with a tight bass are 7236 and Bendix 6080wb. More so the Bendix with a clear sounding 6SN7 or C3g.
  
 Don't know about upgraded tubes. That's only the drivers that is upgraded.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi @hypnos1,
  
 I am just listening to some Penguins while waiting for your review on how to pick GEC 6AS7G tubes and this is the main reason I don't find anything LOL 
  
 Geek Pulse SFi served me for a while until Beyerdynamic T1 arrived in my house, very good synergy with Sennheiser HD600. I moved on to Chord Mojo and so was I am enjoying my music.
  
 Believe it or not, Chord is musical on its own. I am going to be looking for a DAC for Elise, for now, my setup is Mojo connected directly to T1 and fed from PC with some SACD love right now  Elise has been in resting mode for good 2 months now since I was DAC-less. I made a bet on Mojo but it did not pair at all with Elise, might try again after the burn in and some new cables, I did not know it's headphone jack will feed the signal into Elise, an amplified signal into an amplifier is a bad idea in my opinion. There are happy Mojo users on this thread, so I still have hope that one day Elise will come back to life. Until then, Mojo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 
  
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Yipee LR...but you need *two*, mon ami...another one on the cards perhaps?!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## richdytch

geetarman49 said:


> haha ... excellent.  now you can start hunting for an original arnold: english, scottish, cornish dances on lyrita label.   how many $$$$ ??
> 
> another vinyl treasure is john renbourn's Sir John A Lot (Of Merrie Englandes Musyk Thyng & Ye Grene Knyghte) ... i bought the windham hill re-release in the late 80s but the original pressing on transatlantic (1968) should be great too.  have a listen:




I love Renbourn. I was lucky enough to meet him on several occasions add to attend some of his guitar masterclasses. Also supported him once with a friend. He was hilarious, generous, and probably the most inspiring musician I've ever met. The last couple of times I saw him play live he took the roof off the place. Sorely missed.


----------



## Oskari

Please, LR, don't top-post. This site doesn't like it and it's bad netiquette anyway.


----------



## UntilThen

It's been a while since I've been awed by a set of tubes but the Bendix 6080wb are moving me now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've tried it with EL3N, various 6SN7s and now with ECC31. The Bendix are special no doubt about it. Thanks Gman for supplying the other Bendix. Still not ready for a review. Just listening to music and loving it.
  
 Btw someone outbid me on the GEC 6080 at US$200 with 2 days to go lol. It ain't fake anymore that's for sure and I ain't chasing it.


----------



## geetarman49

richdytch said:


> I love Renbourn. I was lucky enough to meet him on several occasions add to attend some of his guitar masterclasses. Also supported him once with a friend. He was hilarious, generous, and probably the most inspiring musician I've ever met. The last couple of times I saw him play live he took the roof off the place. Sorely missed.


 

 i agree -- & i was fortunate enough to catch him in action with jacqui mcshee ... maybe 8yr ago ... but my recollection is that he did not seem to be in the best of health then and the sets were rather on the 'slow' side.


----------



## richdytch

geetarman49 said:


> i agree -- & i was fortunate enough to catch him in action with jacqui mcshee ... maybe 8yr ago ... but my recollection is that he did not seem to be in the best of health then and the sets were rather on the 'slow' side.




Yeah, I think he'd had some serious health issues and his playing had suffered. But in the last couple of years he seemed to have really got it back.


----------



## geetarman49

untilthen said:


> It's been a while since I've been awed by a set of tubes but the Bendix 6080wb are moving me now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 my pleasure, UT ... glad it's found a happy home.
 now ... why is the gec taking so long to get to LR?   his shipment to me just arrived about an hr ago.
  
 the prices on premium tubes have been crazy for a long while --- now it seems to have reached hysterical proportions -- that's why i'm leaving that parade


----------



## Oskari

Händel with a Celtic twist:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB8NhXtgG_A[/VIDEO]


----------



## connieflyer

Just saw they are having a head-fi get together close by, see they don't have an Elise, if I would have known earlier may have taken mine. Here is a list of equipment coming, saw the Utopia's on it, may have to go and give them a listen.
  
*Gear List:*
  
*Headphones:*
 ZMF X-Vibro
 Ether Flow
 Grado sr80
 Hifiman HE-350
 Hifiman HE400S
 Hifiman HE-500
 Hifiman HEX
 Hifiman HE-6
 Beyer T90
 Beyer T70p
 Beyer DT770
 Denon D7000
 Denon D600
 Fostex TH-X00 Purpleheart
 Sennheiser HD800
 Sennheiser HD650
 Audeze LCD-3F
 Audeze KCD-X
 Sony MDR-Z7
 Sony MDR-1R
 64 Audio U10
 AKG K7xx
 AKG K701
 Bose QC20
 64audio U10
 Focal Utopia
 Tentative ZMF
  
*AMPS:*
 Schiit Mjolnir 2
 Schiit Valhalla 2
 Schiit Asgard 2
 First Watt F5 Turbo with B1 preamp.
 Icon Audio HP-8
 Pangea HP201
 NuForce HA200
 Chord Mojo
 Matrix M-stage HPA3-B
 Emotiva Mini-X
 Stello HP100
 Creative B5
 Sony UDA-1
 Eddie Current Studio
 Allnic HPA-5000
  
*Sources:*
 Schiit gungnir MB
 Schiit Modi
 Schiit Bifrost MB
 Schiit Birfrost 4490
 Ultra-fi DAC-41
 Theta DSPro Generation II
 AT-LP120 turntable + schiit Mani
 Questyle QP1R
 Chord Mojo
 Gustard X12
 Bricasti M-1
 Mystery tube CD Player
  
*Gadgets:*
 Gustard U12
 Ifi usb
 Sony NW-ZX1
 Singxer F-1

  

 Edited by JEspina456 - 10/10/16 at 11:23pm


----------



## Lord Raven

oskari said:


> Please, LR, don't top-post. This site doesn't like it and it's bad netiquette anyway.


 
  
 Thanks for correcting me, what happens if you top quote? It is more of an OCD issue, I guess.
  
 Look at the miniature size of this wonderful unit. Howie, the headphone jacks are not single ended, connecting them both to your external amp has no special effect, whatsoever. 
  
 Mojo owners on this thread, I need to know what volume level (color code) do you set when you are listening through Elise?


----------



## mordy

Here is a deal on the Senn HD800 in case somebody is interested:   $874.00 



Sennheiser HD 800 Dynamic Open-Back Stereo Headphones for $874.00 


Get this Sennheiser HD 800 Reference Dynamic Over-Ear Professional Headphones (Black/Silver) from Newegg.com (via Focus Camera)Price*:  * $899.00 (See price in cart)Discount*:  * $25 off $200 coupon "MPGAMER16" using MasterPassShipping*:  * Free*Final Price**:   $874.00 + Free Shipping* 
 







 
 
 
 



  

*Compare:*



$995.36



$1029.99



$1399.95



$1399.95


----------



## connieflyer

That is a pretty good deal, @mordy I bought mine from amazon for under $900 earlier this year.  Great phones, the best of the phones I have had, 650, 700. and T1. Very happy with them. Nice catch


----------



## Oskari

lord raven said:


> Thanks for correcting me, what happens if you top quote? It is more of an OCD issue, I guess.




Top-posting produces empty previews as well as empty quotes like the one in post 2928 above.


----------



## DecentLevi

arniesb said:


> Hey guys, i want to know more about tubes (specifically intrested about tubes which have more presence range and little less lower mids, with tight bass. Got my Sennheiser HD800S and i feel that my A20 have far too much lower mids for it and not tight bass and dip in upper mids. Mids simply have no bite at all... Is there any tubes for Elise which can cure my A20 shortcomings? Dont like muffled presence range. Thanks. And by the way, how upgraded tubes from Feliks Audio Website sound? Thanks a lot.


 
  


untilthen said:


> I'll point you to the person here with a HD800s > @pctazhp
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Arnie, I'll try to clarity UT's advice for your quest. First he was saying PCTazhp is pleased with EL3N (drivers / 'front') and GEC 6080 (powers).
 Next the 7236 tubes he was recommending were by Tung Sol, and for clear sounding 6SN7 there are many. I recommend especially GE 6SN7 GTA for perfect bass, linearity and total transparency that 'scales' with any power tube, or Zenith 6SN7 for a brighter yet equally dynamic sound.
  
 The powers that come with Elise (6H13C in the 6AS7G class) are in fact outstanding and IMO outclass many costing several hundred. For the Bendix, EL3N's also pair well, especially with tube dampers on all four tubes. However these are all very balanced tubes, without any dip in the lower mids.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup, Lukasz confirmed today that the 6H13C tubes I've been raving about are indeed the same as stock tubes. I guess I've come 'full circle' - or more of a _dysfunctional_ circle anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... first getting my Elise without stock tubes in favor of experimenting with recommended tubes, then finally six months later I happen to 'discover' the stock power tubes by total random chance, when searching for affordable tubes that appear to have a _vaguely_ similar construction to the GEC's, only to discover they are my #1 kings so far - yet are ironically the same included in most orders.
  
 However my setup is not identical to stock, using hand picked GE 6SN7 GTA's and tube bands on all four.
  
 Also that's right - my 'Christmas tree' setup has now been far outclassed in just about every way. Sadly, this unique 'act' will likely be disbanded soon by yours truly - anybody fancy a strange Christmas decoration? Additionally, I have been tubetized (tube baptism LOL) into a new man - more of a one-tube-per-socket guy for the foreseeable future.


----------



## hpamdr

oskari said:


> Händel with a Celtic twist:
> 
> []





>


 
  
 Handel with a soul flavor 
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handel%27s_Messiah:_A_Soulful_Celebration


----------



## UntilThen

DL, I'm glad you realised that there are tubes that 'far outclassed' your Christmas Tree and we are all glad you are rid of your Frankenstein addiction.
  
 You've just started sampling some of the better power tubes. I'm sure we will hear more 'superlatives' from you as you sample the better power tubes and drivers too. Stock power tubes may be good but that's your starting point.


----------



## Lord Raven

I am waiting for my lottery and new year  I think we should hear this pair of headphones in our lives..
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> Here is a deal on the Senn HD800 in case somebody is interested:   $874.00
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Oskari

Apparently you don't want people quoting you.


----------



## Oskari

hpamdr said:


> Handel with a soul flavor
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handel%27s_Messiah:_A_Soulful_Celebration





[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/qsmwcUB8vHM[/VIDEO]


----------



## Lord Raven

oskari said:


> Apparently you don't want people quoting you.




On long posts, you can use it to hide the information that you don't want to repeat. 

I think I made another quick mistake and realized it later :/


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> Yup, Lukasz confirmed today that the 6H13C tubes I've been raving about are indeed the same as stock tubes. I guess I've come 'full circle' - or more of a _dysfunctional_ circle anyway
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> *Also that's right - my 'Christmas tree' setup has now been far outclassed in just about every way. Sadly, this unique 'act' will likely be disbanded soon by yours truly - anybody fancy a strange Christmas decoration? Additionally, I have been tubetized (tube baptism LOL) into a new man - more of a one-tube-per-socket guy for the foreseeable future.*


----------



## hypnos1

Well guys, it looks like Glenn's (of Glenn Amps) choice of our EL3N in his own amp is turning out to be quite a performer...not only does he rate it up there with the very best of the best, but the lucky guy who is now the new owner is also over the moon with it!....Lucky indeed...especially with a grand's worth of Lundahl tranformers providing the output duties!!
  
 And so it has confirmed my oft-stated opinion that partnering the EL3N with the *very best* of components takes this tube to amazing levels...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Well guys, it looks like Glenn's (of Glenn Amps) choice of our EL3N in his own amp is turning out to be quite a performer...not only does he rate it up there with the very best of the best, but the lucky guy who is now the new owner is also over the moon with it!....Lucky indeed...especially with a grand's worth of Lundahl tranformers providing the output duties!!
> 
> And so it has confirmed my oft-stated opinion that partnering the EL3N with the *very best* of components takes this tube to amazing levels...
> 
> ...


 
 Well H1, it just goes to show our praise of EL3N is not just hype despite some who rubbish it. Not surprising. We have a good many here who love 6xEL3N in Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Well H1, it just goes to show our praise of EL3N is not just hype despite some who rubbish it. Not surprising. We have a good many here who love 6xEL3N in Elise.


 
  
 Yes indeed UT...but I can already hear the occasional "ah, but Glenn's amp uses those hyper-expensive Lundahls...not OTL"...so I've said it first lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. However, enough of us have indeed managed to coax EL3N magic from our humble Elises to also prove its credentials...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!!...


----------



## lukeap69

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed UT...but I can already hear the occasional "ah, but Glenn's amp uses those hyper-expensive Lundahls...not OTL"...so I've said it first lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 My Glenn's OTL amp also uses an expensive Lundahl transformer. This and the Goldpoint attenuator made my OTL amp cost almost double the price of an Elise.


----------



## Lord Raven

Listening to the binaural recording of Macy Gray, the soundstage is as big as a soccer field, great recording, what great vocals. Recommends to try for all the head-fiers.
  
 Even if you don't have a Mojo hehe
  
 Senn HD600>Mojo


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Listening to the binaural recording of Macy Gray, the soundstage is as big as a soccer field, great recording, what great vocals. Recommends to try for all the head-fiers.
> 
> Even if you don't have a Mojo hehe
> 
> Senn HD600>Mojo


 
 If you think Mojo is the only thing with soundstage, you are sadly mistaken.
  
 Macy Gray on that new album is great though.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> If you think Mojo is the only thing with soundstage, you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> Macy Gray on that new album is great though.


 
  
 If you could re-read my post, I was talking about the recording. Your auditory memory must be very good or you must have a superhuman hearing to remember a sound from months ago, tell me how was it?


----------



## UntilThen

You said 'Even if you don't have a Mojo.'

Implying that those of us without a Mojo are missing the soundstage. That's a bit rich.


----------



## Lord Raven

Read my post with a neutral mind, I recommended it to every head-fier before mentioning my equipment.
  
 It only implies that you still get to listen to a great recording with a huge sound stage even if you don't have a Mojo. I am not a native English speaker, and, it's not an attack on you whenever I mention Mojo in my posts. 
  
 Chill out, NAD or Mojo, I am here for Elise and my friends. Not to make someone feel sad about their stuff.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I for one, ain't jumping on the Mojo bandwagon. The award winning Questyle QP1R has been tested to perform even better than Chord's offerings as a DAC, and for only a few hundred more than the Mojo also packs a class A amp with patented current-mode amplification technology, line-out, and is a full DAP. See sectoin S13 here for his comparison.


----------



## DecentLevi

This is THE combo almost 'to die for', with electronic music anyway. In a word, mesmerizing. Bass as deep as an ocean, mids fast & expansive as an interstellar spaceship, & dynamics / P.R.A.T. as enjoyable as little drops of gold.
  
powers: 6H13C + Mullard 6080
drivers: GE 6SN7 GA 

  
 plus silicon tube dampers on all - small, medium and large accordingly
 Not to mention my Tru-fi modded HP-100's (newest revision) and custom silver cables


----------



## Wreckgar7

lord raven said:


> Thanks for correcting me, what happens if you top quote? It is more of an OCD issue, I guess.
> 
> 
> Look at the miniature size of this wonderful unit. Howie, the headphone jacks are not single ended, connecting them both to your external amp has no special effect, whatsoever.
> ...



Lord Raven, can i ask u what u dont like about the mojo as standalone dac into the Elise? I also have the mojo as dac, really like the combination but then all I can compare it to is the Odac. Maby u can compare it to some other dacs? And also which different tubes did u try?


----------



## HOWIE13

@Lord Raven
  
 I agree, connecting each output of Mojo to Elise doesn't produce a special effect- but I find the sound-stage slightly more capacious. I only suggested you try it that way because you didn't like the sound of Mojo connected conventionally to Elise. I find Mojo synergises very well with Elise and I agree with you  is a great HA on it's own.
  
 As for volume level, I press all three buttons simultaneously to power up, then press the VOL- button 4 times. This produces a similar volume to my other DACS (Mimby, M-DAC), and presumably corresponds to around the conventional 2.0-2.2 Vrms output.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> This is THE combo almost 'to die for', with electronic music anyway. In a word, mesmerizing. Bass as deep as an ocean, mids fast & expansive as an interstellar spaceship, & dynamics / P.R.A.T. as enjoyable as little drops of gold.
> 
> powers: 6H13C + Mullard 6080
> drivers: GE 6SN7 GA
> ...


 
 Those two power tubes produce very different sound to my ears. Is your electronic music recorded identically in both channels?
 That set-up sadly would never work with a lot of Classical where there is often much more treble in the left channel, and bass in the right, eg. orchestral and chamber music. There would be some very odd effects I would think.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well I for one, ain't jumping on the Mojo bandwagon. The award winning Questyle QP1R has been tested to perform even better than Chord's offerings as a DAC, and for only a few hundred more than the Mojo also packs a class A amp with patented current-mode amplification technology, line-out, and is a full DAP. See sectoin S13 here for his comparison.


 
 The QP1R is indeed a full DAP but then again it's not a full external DAC, like Mojo.
 I'm a bit unclear why one would want to compare a DAP with a DAC anyway.
 He also used the same QP1R as the optical digital source for Mojo and I don't know how good QP1R's optical output is.
 In other words, the comparison between the two products has been designed in such a way that one of the products (QP1R) could have adversley affected the performance of the other (Mojo).
  
 I agree QP1R sounds like a great DAP but I wouldn't personally draw any conclusion as to Mojo's potential as a DAC from that comparison.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> Those two power tubes produce very different sound to my ears. Is your electronic music recorded identically in both channels?
> That set-up sadly would never work with a lot of Classical where there is often much more treble in the left channel, and bass in the right, eg. orchestral and chamber music. There would be some very odd effects I would think.


 
 My particular pair of Svetlana 6H13C's anyway, sound like a more refined version of the Mullard 6080's with larger soundstage and improved realism. I just tested this combo in mono mode, switching the headphones from L/R for channel comparison. There may be a slight volume and FR imbalance, but these seem to synergise quite well.


----------



## pctazhp

lord raven said:


> Read my post with a neutral mind, I recommended it to every head-fier before mentioning my equipment.
> 
> It only implies that you still get to listen to a great recording with a huge sound stage even if you don't have a Mojo. I am not a native English speaker, and, it's not an attack on you whenever I mention Mojo in my posts.
> 
> Chill out, NAD or Mojo, I am here for Elise and my friends. *Not to make someone feel sad about their stuff.*


 
 Edit: Apologies. Removing post.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> My particular pair of Svetlana 6H13C's anyway, sound like a more refined version of the Mullard 6080's with larger soundstage and improved realism. I just tested this combo in mono mode, switching the headphones from L/R for channel comparison. There may be a slight volume and FR imbalance, but these seem to synergise quite well.


 
  
 I did the experiment and I think you're correct, it is a question of channel balance and image.
  
 The Svetlana channel sounded much closer, so the players of the orchestra on Svetlana's side seemed well in front of the players on Mullard's side. Sounded weird and took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on until I reversed the tubes and, when the players reversed their positions on the stage, I realised what was going on.  
 Maybe that effect sounds good for Electronic music.
  
 Now here's a thought. The 6H13C is said on the Crack forum to have a higher amplification, similar to 5998's, whereas 6H5C is said to sound similar to 6H13C, but has the more conventional amplification of 6AS7/6080 tubes. I could repeat the experiment with 6H5C's and see if the orchestra sounds okay.   Sometime.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 .


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I did the experiment and I think you're correct, it is a question of channel balance and image.
> 
> The Svetlana channel sounded much closer, so the players of the orchestra on Svetlana's side seemed well in front of the players on Mullard's side. Sounded weird and took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on until I reversed the tubes and, when the players reversed their positions on the stage, I realised what was going on.
> Maybe that effect sounds good for Electronic music.
> ...


 
 Just curious. What is the point of trying to make two different power tubes work together? Maybe there is a reason, but it runs counter to my 40-year belief that channel balance and matching is important.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Just curious. What is the point of trying to make two different power tubes work together? Maybe there is a reason, but it runs counter to my 40-year belief that channel balance and matching is important.


 
  
 I entirely agree with you. I hate channel imbalance -it's impossible to image properly if the balance is out.
  
 DL posted it worked for him and I was just curious, but it didn't work for me.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I entirely agree with you. I hate channel imbalance -it's impossible to image properly if the balance is out.
> 
> DL posted it worked for him and I was just curious, but it didn't work for me.


 
 Thanks ))


----------



## hypnos1

lukeap69 said:


> My Glenn's OTL amp also uses an expensive Lundahl transformer. This and the Goldpoint attenuator made my OTL amp cost almost double the price of an Elise.


 
  
 Yo, l69....I'm sure those Lundahls do indeed lift an amp's performance - either in supply duties or output duties...but _*at a price, lol!*_








...
  
 I'm also equally sure that my new mains power "regenerator" helps lift more humble trafo power supply performance to a much higher than 'normal' level, for a lot less money (for me in the UK with the PowerInspired unit at least lol!). So I shan't be recommending the F-A guys to look into the Lundahls just yet LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 ps. Are you tempted to add another factor onto the price of an Elise and go for a GEL3N?!!...(I suspect you would have a fair wait on your hands, alas!).... And I have to admit that I personally would rather have the ability to "fine tune" the sound by use of different power* tubes*, as opposed to the fixed output *transformers*, regardless of their cost/quality...especially with high impedance cans...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.


----------



## lukeap69

hypnos1 said:


> ps. *Are you tempted to add another factor onto the price of an Elise and go for a GEL3N?!!.*..


 
  
 How did you guess that H1? You seem to have a telephatic power... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I am waiting for a feedback on the first GEL3N. And from first impressions, it seems on Code X, there is no fight. I will wait for further feedback.
  
 And yes, the wait can be one year - same as my OTL Darna... 
  
 You guys have started this EL3N revolution...


----------



## hypnos1

lukeap69 said:


> How did you guess that H1? You seem to have a telephatic power...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yikes, l69...patience sure is the order of the day for a Glenn amp lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(will have to have another quiet word in Lukasz's ear methinks!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 And there just _has_ to be another 'EL3N' sleeper out there _somewhere..._but it's a question of _finding_ it LOL! - much easier said than done, I fear...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(still haven't even been able to see how the EL11 compares yet!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....). But GOOD LUCK to you!...


----------



## pctazhp

I hate computers - at least the Windows variety. Today TIDAL HIFI stopped working on Google Chrome. It said I had to install Adobe Flash Player. It was already installed, but I tried reinstalling it 3 times without luck. So I took the other option and downloaded the desktop app and finally got that to work. What a pain!!!!
  
 AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG


----------



## richdytch

I escaped the general instability of tidal in chrome by using it on my android tablet, then chromecasting it. Spdif link to my dac from there... seems to work very nicely. More relaxing than controlling it from a pc.


----------



## mordy

Re using different power tubes (and even different driver tubes): I tried this on several occasions, and the only time this works is when the tubes sound *very* similar, both sound wise and gain wise.
  
 Otherwise you get a sound stage that sounds like two separate halves and not like a continuum - something I find very irritating.
  
 I was able to balance out two similar sounding power tubes with different gain by using my balance control, but still had to change my listening position (using speakers).
  
 In the early days we used the ECC31 and FDD20 as driver tubes with success, but it seems that this combination, although very good, has fallen out of favor. Could be that it is too much of a hassle to use a 6V and 12V tube together.
  
 I did have good results combining dual power tubes for each channel. An example was using EL3N as drivers and 6N7+6BL7 as power tubes. The total current draw of this combination does not require any external adapters.
  
 Anyhow, although it was an interesting experience, I am now fully content using one tube/slot, and do not feel the need for multiple or mixed setups at this stage.
  
 My current favorite is EL3N and RCA 6080 - IMHO as good as EL3N and 7236 but warmer and more engaging.


----------



## richdytch

Forgive me if this has been answered before, but has anyone ever stated a reason for why the Elise is so good at driving orthos? On paper, with its output power and being OTL, it shouldn't be such a good performer. But it really does amazing things with my he400. My most powerful HA, the Schiit Magni, can't come close despite being a lot closer to the required spec.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Forgive me if this has been answered before, but has anyone ever stated a reason for why the Elise is so good at driving orthos? On paper, with its output power and being OTL, it shouldn't be such a good performer. But it really does amazing things with my he400. My most powerful HA, the Schiit Magni, can't come close despite being a lot closer to the required spec.


 
  
 Awesome you just posted this as an hour ago I was just about to post the same thing, more or less, when the wife dragged me away from Elise to do some shopping and I'm just back and read your post.
  
 I've been listening this morning to female vocals, and the power combo 6BL7+6SN7 ('60's Tung Sols) per power socket with K-R 6SN7 VT231's takes complete control of my HE400's and turns them into a sweet, clear, fluid musical instrument. best female vocal sound I've heard so far, and I have always found female vocals hard to reproduce satisfactorily in the past -until this morning.
 Perfect synergy between singer, Elise and HE400.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  

  
  
 EDIT: as to your question, I've no answer only to say that it's yet another example of the wonderful things Elise can do.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Re using different power tubes (and even different driver tubes): I tried this on several occasions, and the only time this works is when the tubes sound *very* similar, both sound wise and gain wise.
> 
> Otherwise you get a sound stage that sounds like two separate halves and not like a continuum - something I find very irritating.
> 
> ...


 
 Mordy:  I haven't tried the RCA 6080s. But it is interesting that over time there seems to have developed certain tube and tube combinations that consistently get high praise from the members here. And comments on particular tubes or combinations do seem to often coincide. We don't all agree on the absolute best, but given different sources, headphones or preferences that should not be surprising. What most of us do seem to agree upon is that Elise is adaptable and allows most of us to achieve highly satisfying results.We have come a long way since the ECC31-FDD20 days ))))


----------



## pctazhp

lukeap69 said:


> How did you guess that H1? You seem to have a telephatic power...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 In a year I'll be deaf and living in a nursing home


----------



## lukeap69

pctazhp said:


> In a year I'll be deaf and living in a nursing home




We can take care of your tubes then.


----------



## pctazhp

lukeap69 said:


> We can take care of your tubes then.


 
 I'll keep that in mind if I can remember by then what a "tube" is ))))


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> Awesome you just posted this as an hour ago I was just about to post the same thing, more or less, when the wife dragged me away from Elise to do some shopping and I'm just back and read your post.
> 
> I've been listening this morning to female vocals, and the power combo 6BL7+6SN7 ('60's Tung Sols) per power socket with K-R 6SN7 VT231's takes complete control of my HE400's and turns them into a sweet, clear, fluid musical instrument. best female vocal sound I've heard so far, and I have always found female vocals hard to reproduce satisfactorily in the past -until this morning.
> Perfect synergy between singer, Elise and HE400.
> ...


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 I appreciate your comments. One of the big surprises to me re tube rolling is that it is possible to arrive at a consensus on a select group of tubes as being top tier. Originally I thought that my own observations would not be valid for others, given all the different equipment and people's different tastes in music and music reproduction. However, over time I realized that a number of people had similar ideas, and I now feel more confident in my evaluation of how something sounds.
  
 The other aspect that I appreciate is the civilized and helpful approach of all the people on this forum - it is interesting that you hear frequently comments from people new to this forum about the friendliness and helpfulness.
  
 Re your comments about age I take it to be an expression of black humor - the average life span of male US tube rollers is more than 84 years.


----------



## DecentLevi

Per the last page, I like to try combinations of both power and driver tubes, to see what sound signatures can be had. In my case, the Mullard 6080 + 6H13C powers produced the most pleasing refinement of the frequency spectrum and P.R.A.T. as opposed to other combinations or matching Mullards, RCA's or 6H13C's. (tested only with electronic music yet). Later testing showed there wasn't much if any balance or sonic difference between these two tubes, but that could have been attributed to the headphones I was using. Several of us agreed before that tube matching is overrated. If you skimp on this you could be missing your favorite combination - a best blend of two sound signatures.


----------



## DecentLevi

*WESTERN ELECTRIC 421A power tubes with Elise*​  ​ Folks I have had the pleasure of being the first person to audition these wonderful tubes on the Elise. Incoming yesterday was the 2nd tube to complete my pair of Western Electric 421A (6AS7G tube class) - which I got for a bargain at $350 - and I think were well worth the cost, with one small caveat (read on...)
  

  

  

  
 From the first second listening to these, I knew something special was going on - notedly in the dynamics / clarity. 
  
*Adjectives*:
 My chosen adjectives for these tubes would be luscious and exquisite! Downright glorious and by far and wide the best / closest to real-life_ (at-home)_ setup I've ever heard. 
 I would describe their sound signature as immersive, expansive, vivid, analytical / detailed / clear / clean, bright, cohesive and most of all: extremely lifelike / organic and the best dynamics one may ever find.
  
*Select comparisons*:
 After comparing these to my next best which is Svetlana 6H13C, it made the former sound artificial and somewhat dull, almost like the sound one would get from a highly compressed MP3 file. Compared to the (now retired) 'Christmas tree' setup, it made them sound congested and restrained, then per Howie 13's above post I compared these to a 6BL7 + 6SN7 power tube setup, making them sound very muddy and non-detailed by contrast.
  
*Driver tube pairings*:
 To my surprise, my mainstay GE 6SN7 GTA driver tubes were a bad pairing with these, giving a sound that was much brighter with less bass than I would prefer, and dynamics actually too harsh / fast. However the EL3N's flattened the FR a bit, along with their signature organic / 3D like sound.
  
*Tube dampers*:
 I thought these sounded best with one tube damper ring (size 2XL I believe), resulting in even better imaging and bass quality, as opposed to three that seemed to tighten everything up a bit too much.
  
*Minor caveat*:
 The one small downside I have found about the W.E. 421A tubes, at least on its' pairing with the Elise, is that they are overtly bright (note my mention of detailed, clear & clean sounding above). For some preferences, this may be a good thing - or even depending on the headphone or driver tubes its' paired with.
  
*Prognosis*:
 Overall this tube is an astounding performer that excels especially in an its' ability to produce a super lifelike / organic sound and in dynamics. Literally the most realistic and hardest hitting tube I have ever heard, and great enough to make me cancel my plans to get an HD-600 headphone, which I previously wanted for improved clarity and dynamics.
  
 It has been said on other forums from several people who have owned the 'holy grail' GEC 6AS7G (bottle shaped, brown base) tubes that these are even better. While I (for now) am not totally dismissing that notion, what I would like to say is that this may / may not be true. I would personally like to compare these two 'holy grails' on my system before making any such conclusions. Also from other reviews on these tubes I am under the impression that the sound signature of these tubes is generally not overtly bright, but that for some strange reason this may have more to do with its' pairing with the Elise. I am left with the feeling that one must upgrade their amp and / or headphones to truly get the most out of these pearls of a tube. But for now I am certaintly enjoying my home _'Head-Fi rig'_ which has just been taken to a whole new level!


----------



## DecentLevi

Per my post on the previous page about being graced with the opportunity to hear the highly acclaimed Western Electric 421A tubes on the Elise, yet discovering it's a bit of a bright pairing...
  
 So now my quest begins for a 'darker' driver tube. Possibly @mordy, @UntilThen, Howie or @hpamdr would have a suggestion for the likes of a 6SN7 or 6DJ8, etc. class tube that is darker sounding - and by this I mean both recessed treble and increased bass - and darker than the EL3N's. Or if you have an extra pair of something like this, please send me a PM so we can make a deal. Thanks in advance...


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 I'm not surprised your new set-up sounds bright. I wouldn't be able to tolerate anything much brighter than the set-up I described yesterday for more than a few minutes without my ears fizzing. As it is it's just perfect for me.
  
 Without a particularly recessed treble, an overall darker driver tube you might consider could be Sylvania 6SN7WGT, Bad Boy or Chrome Dome, if you can find the genuine articles. T-S Round Plate is also comparatively darker, though close to neutral in a universal sense. All are expensive but should still be cheaper than your Western Electric. Mouse Ears are much cheaper but will probably be too dark for your needs. Also, since you used to like the stock power tubes so much have you tried the stock driver, Russian made T-S 6SN7GTB? They are a bit warm of neutral and a nice tube. 6N30P is another nice driver which works very well for me but again may be a bit too warm for your requirements. There are lots of other possibilities too.
  
 If I listened to Electronica I could help you more.
  
 Overall though, I do wonder with all the cost of these tubes whether you might be better buying a fundamentally more revealing headphone, such as an HD800 or T1, both of which, by all accounts, synergise really well with Elise.
  
 .


----------



## hpamdr

D.L. I do not listen Electronic music as much and I'm not a fan of D'n'B either. My friends that like it use closed HP and solid state amplifier......
  
 I do have 5998 but no 421 my next observation are based on 5998 instead of the 421.
 To be back to darker sound, you could test ECC31 or 6N7G, that will add some basses but you will still have some good detail all over the spectrum, for even more bass KenRad VT-231 is a good option with less gain, and the if you want to sacrifice a bit of details the RCA VT-231 (Grey glass).  
 With the EL3N as a driver, you get extra air and harmonics coupled with the 421 which is a dynamic monster... Probably you can ear the effects of electronic cut, reverbs, filters... that could add extra "hiss" in the hight. 
 Another solution could be to EQ your source to best suit your taste... [I do personally prefer less resolving setup when listening electronic or compressed music]


----------



## DecentLevi

Well guys, after spending some more time with the Western Electric 421A power tubes, it becomes clear to me these are the 'real deal' in power tubes. Totally transfixing realism, ultimate linearity and by far the most resolving... good enough to receive such high acclaim even with their above mentioned semi-bright pairing with the Elise (counterbalanced with the semi-dark sound of the EL3N's and some EQ'ing for now).
  
 Though I am still tempted to get the GEC 6AS7G's for comparison at least. Would anyone tell me if this looks like an authentic GEC, or at least as one that would perform the same? It's a 6AS7G / A1834 apparently without a brand - not labeled as a GEC but appears to have identical internals:

  
 Also Howie and Hpamdr thanks for your advice on darker tubes to pair my 421A's with, but those all appear to be bass heavy, yet still not recessed treble that I was seeking for that pairing. Am I wrong to assume that the emphasized bass of a darker tube would not automatically recess the treble somewhat - or would the top end actually be somewhat subdued as a result of the extra bass?


----------



## DecentLevi

Also I wanted to mention that as of lately I'm not strictly an electronic music listener. In fact most of these higher-end tubes were meant for extra fidelity with analogue-era music such as retro rock and soul, etc.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well guys, after spending some more time with the Western Electric 421A power tubes, it becomes clear to me these are the 'real deal' in power tubes. Totally transfixing realism, ultimate linearity and by far the most resolving... good enough to receive such high acclaim even with their above mentioned semi-bright pairing with the Elise (counterbalanced with the semi-dark sound of the EL3N's and some EQ'ing for now).
> 
> Though I am still tempted to get the GEC 6AS7G's for comparison at least. Would anyone tell me if this looks like an authentic GEC, or at least as one that would perform the same? It's a 6AS7G / A1834 apparently without a brand - not labeled as a GEC but appears to have identical internals:
> 
> ...


 
 Your assumption is generally correct, I think. There are tubes with a V shaped sound with strong bass and treble.
 Many tubes have a 'rolled off' treble. I assumed that's what you mean by 'recessed'. I can't think of any other suggestions at the moment. I wouldn't describe Chrome Dome, Sylvania 6SN7WGT, 6N6P/6N30P or T-S RP as 'bass heavy'. They just have a darker, warmer sound than what you were using, to my ears anyway.
 Maybe equalising is going to be the easiest option for you at present.


----------



## louisxiawei

@UntilThen  All I want to say is: Thank you! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Lush sound yet detailed sound and good dynamic.
  
 However, GEC 6AS7G is still on my wishlist to be fulfilled.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Well guys, after spending some more time with the Western Electric 421A power tubes, it becomes clear to me these are the 'real deal' in power tubes. Totally transfixing realism, ultimate linearity and by far the most resolving... good enough to receive such high acclaim even with their above mentioned semi-bright pairing with the Elise (counterbalanced with the semi-dark sound of the EL3N's and some EQ'ing for now).
> 
> Though I am still tempted to get the GEC 6AS7G's for comparison at least. Would anyone tell me if this looks like an authentic GEC, or at least as one that would perform the same? It's a 6AS7G / A1834 apparently without a brand - not labeled as a GEC but appears to have identical internals:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo DL...that's the real deal lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...are there *two* of them?...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 As for the "superiority" of the WE421A, this is yet another area of great controversy. Many believe it is "merely" a 5998, with slightly different readings - probably a higher gm (transconductance), in the same way as the C3g'S' vs the standard tube... (but at a MUCH higher price LOL!!!). This _usually _only brings marginal alteration/ improvement in sound... its final performance - as always - will also depend upon the rest of one's system of course.
  
 I personally feel that, as with the GEC 6AS7G family, the extortionate prices now demanded - unless VERY lucky! - are more to do with myth and hype than _true_ value, even though they are indeed wonderful tubes.
  
 Good luck with that/those GECs though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

OK guys...although I should know better, I just can't help giving a preliminary impression of the single EL11 I have managed to adapt so far - can only work with one channel at the moment, and this is NOT a good way to try an assessment, lol! However, I do feel I'm getting a _taste_ at least of what may be in store...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...ie. what has stood out already is the most polished, delicate, sweet treble I have ever heard from Elise, plus gorgeous shimmer/decay - FULL STOP!!... And, at the moment at least, with no apparent loss of bass and/or mids. Of course this is only a mild indication of just how TWO tubes are going to perform, but already I'm highly  optimistic...and _trying_ to be as objective as possible - honest!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Now, the EL11 is _supposedly_ just an EL3N with a different base, but I've a feeling there shall indeed be a fair bit of difference in their sound. Trouble is it could be down to not just one factor...eg. this particular Valvo EL11 (late 1930s) is much older than my own younger Philips EL3Ns, and has the *mesh* plate I mentioned previously. Either of these factors - or both! - could easily explain any difference, let alone different _factory_.
  
 Whatever, it's early days yet, and so anything more solid will have to wait a while - am awaiting another such old Valvo right now...which may or may not have said mesh plate lol (I sincerely hope it does!!). And I must admit to loving how it _looks_ even, now I've got a nice new base on it...
  

  
 Actually, I was very lucky (which I'm not normally so happy about!) to have a loose base - so I was able to remove it and replace with the much neater and smaller brass one with gold-plated pins...(I've always loved the black and gold JPS - remember them? - colours!)...


----------



## connieflyer

It is a thing of beauty would love to try them sometime


----------



## DecentLevi

hypnos1 said:


> Yo DL...that's the real deal lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 No I think I'll need just one because I'm 'upgrading' to this amp:

 LOLz 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  Actually I was able to snag one authentic GEC tube and am awaiting another possibility, since some are sold individually. Also your EL11 setup looks amazing and promising, and I have just noticed several other EL11's available on eBay
  
 Also Howie, didn't you say that at least the KenRad VT-231 is a bass heavy tube?


----------



## DecentLevi

Also Hypnos1 I'd like to say I have no doubt with your fine power regenerator and rare tube DAC that your Elise must be pumping out blissful sonic refinement unlike any other, and if your EL11 turns out good, it should be soaring to stratospheric new heights!
  
 Well now that you're back from vacation, I think I can say for everybody we're glad to have you back. Meanwhile during UntilThen's 'vacation' (of sorts), it may be difficult to fill his shoes as global Elise spokesman / non-commission salesman / prophet / advocate, or whichever hat he prefers


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 Congrats on your WE 421 tubes! U did not mention if they are new or used - if new they may change over the next 50 hours or so, and if this is the case, the brightness may be less.
  
 Personally, sine my main listening is through speakers, I make good use of tone controls to tailor the sound to my taste. Possibly you will find such a solution, which may be less expensive than buying new tubes.
  
 I only have one 5998 tube which is said to be almost the same as the WE421, but I have several sets of the 7236 which may also sound similar to these tubes. The 7236 tubes benefited greatly from burn-in.
  
 Re the OEM Svetlana power tubes it seems to me that your opinion now is similar to several other forum members that have tried them.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks, my W.E. 421A's were both sourced from different sellers and are not perfectly matched, as one has a brighter shine than the other. They weren't labeled as NOS and have slightly faded lettering on the base, so I'm assuming they've already been burned in - though I did try burn-in for around 30 hrs, to which the bass seems to have increased a tad (or it could be my hearing perception). Anyway my original source from an obscure Japanese online shop had yielded two more of these WE 421A's at a below-market cost so today I've also ordered two more. After receiving the second pair I will keep my favorite and should have no problem selling the other pair.
  
 Yes indeed the 421A's have a very similar internal construction to select other tubes such as the domino-plate version of Tung Sol 5998 tubes, minus the D-getters of the W.E.'s


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Re the single EL11,my personal impression has been, based on past experiments, that it is not possible to truly evaluate a single tube in an amp designed for a  pair. Somehow the sound of a pair of tubes adds up to more than just one tube + another one. Call it synergy or whatever, but IMHO you need a pair to get the full impression.
  
 Your tube base looks great!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> No I think I'll need just one because I'm 'upgrading' to this amp:
> 
> LOLz
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, as long as the music and rest of the system can convey the bass, the K-R will deliver.


----------



## mordy

Here is a guitar duet - the sound quality is not the greatest, but the playing is very good. Craig Ventresco and Meredith Axelrod in an almost telepathic duet...


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> It is a thing of beauty would love to try them sometime


 
  
 Hi cf...afraid its beauty would have been greatly diminished had I been forced to stick another base underneath the old, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And better wait 'til I've seen how a pair of them perform! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


decentlevi said:


> Also Hypnos1 I'd like to say I have no doubt with your fine power regenerator and rare tube DAC that your Elise must be pumping out blissful sonic refinement unlike any other, and if your EL11 turns out good, it should be soaring to stratospheric new heights!
> 
> Well now that you're back from vacation, I think I can say for everybody we're glad to have you back. Meanwhile during UntilThen's 'vacation' (of sorts), it may be difficult to fill his shoes as global Elise spokesman / non-commission salesman / prophet / advocate, or whichever hat he prefers


 
  
 Thanks DL...sure am very happy indeed with how my Elise is performing...don't really know just how much better she can get - but I'm working on it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 No-one can fill @UntilThen's shoes...that's for sure LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Re the single EL11,my personal impression has been, based on past experiments, that it is not possible to truly evaluate a single tube in an amp designed for a  pair. Somehow the sound of a pair of tubes adds up to more than just one tube + another one. Call it synergy or whatever, but IMHO you need a pair to get the full impression.
> 
> Your tube base looks great!


 
  
 Thanks mordy....and of course you're right re. just a single tube...but at the moment I'm in dire need of a good dose of optimism mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...could be a while yet before this beauty sings with its mate alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## henriks

My new setup and a video..


----------



## DecentLevi

Welcome to Elise land, @henriks - looks like stock driver tubes (tried those type before and they're quiet good, albeit semi-euphonic), - also with the stock 6H13C tubes right? I recommend keeping those tubes around for another try after the 200-ish hr. burn-in mark of Elise, and you just may notice some further improvements. Otherwise keep tuned for more tube advice


----------



## DecentLevi

Posting this info. here with permission from a PM with the tube mastermind and expert @gibosi
  
_ - regarding my questions about a comparison between GEC 6080 and the 'holy grail' GEC 6AS7G, and darker driver tubes; as follows -_
  
 First, it is important to remember that I have a different amp with tube rectification, different headphones and different ears. So my experience may not be all that useful to you....
  
 I haven't listened to my 5998's in a long time _[5998 refers to Tung Sol]_. And while they are not exactly the same as the WE421A, they are very close_ [refers to Western Electric 421A]_. I remember that I liked pairing them with the Sylvania 6SN7W and the Mullard ECC31. If you want something darker yet, the black-glass Ken-Rad or the black-glass Brimar might fit the bill.
  
 The tube in the photo certainly looks like a GEC 6AS7 _[refers to my unlabeled GEC tube a few pages back on this thread]_. In my opinion, the GEC _[6AS7G]_ has a very different sound signature than the 5998_ [Tung Sol]_. I would say somewhat less PRAT, a bit thinner in the mids and more air.
  
 I would say that the GEC 6080 sounds very similar to the GEC 6AS7. They both have that classic GEC airy signature, but the 6AS7 is just a bit more transparent.
  
     ______
  
 The Tung-Sol 5998 and the Western Electric 421A were manufactured by Chatham. And in fact, Chatham is the only company that manufactured these tubes. In the 1950's Tung-Sol purchased Chatham, but the tubes continued to be manufactured in the same Chatham factory through the 1970s.
  
 Western Electric took the 5998 design and tweaked it a bit, but Chatham manufactured it. And thus, the WE421A is essentially a souped-up 5998. That is, your WE421A is the best "5998" ever made., So personally, I think it would be a waste of money to purchase a pair of regular 5998s....
  
     ______
  
 I don't have the WE421A and I have never heard them. (They are too expensive for my wallet!) But folks that have both the 421As and the 5998s report that the major difference is in resolution. They do not report any differences in tonality. So I suspect that you would find the 5998s to be rather bright and bass shy in your system, as well....
  
 Of the 6AS7-type tubes, I do prefer the GEC. However, I am not a bass head. I listen to a lot of acoustic music and I don't find the 5998s to be bass shy at all. But yes, while the GEC have more air, the 5998 are brighter and I prefer to pair them with darker drivers and/or rectifiers..
  
Also tube aficionado @MIKELAP had similar sentiments, and will post if permission received


----------



## richdytch

Hi @henricks, congrats on the Elise. How are you getting on with the 2qute? I love mine, such a huge step up from the rDAC.


----------



## hypnos1

henriks said:


> My new setup and a video..




  
 Welcome to the club, henriks...looking forward to your impressions once everything has burned in nicely.  You should be in for a very interesting journey!...(hope you are able to find the time to browse through the 2 earlier Elise threads also - bit at a time, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @DecentLevi...
  
 Re. your last post on the 5998 vs GEC 6AS7G family debate... as gibosi stated, different amps/headphones/ears must be taken into account here. For each one with a preference for the 5998 there's one for the GEC lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - and so such postings could go on *ad-infinitum!!...*
  
 And there's one very important point that was not stated in your post - although the 5998 should work fine in a 6AS7G circuit, for it to at least equal the GEC it really needs different amp settings...which I believe gibosi does in fact have in his own amp.
  
 But probably the biggest factor in just precisely how the two tubes behave is down to the _*drivers*_ used.
  
 And so this is a topic that - as is so often the case - can keep going round and round in endless circles LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Oskari

Something was playing in my head today. Took me a while to realize what it was: Valse triste:


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/MwInRLZF0ps[/VIDEO]


I like Paavo Järvi's tempo.


----------



## henriks

richdytch said:


> Hi @henricks, congrats on the Elise. How are you getting on with the 2qute? I love mine, such a huge step up from the rDAC.


 
 I got the Mojo bite, and upgraded it (o: at the moment i am using chromecast audio..


----------



## DecentLevi

Hypnos1, were you basically saying that the 5998's are able to work on the Elise but need special settings in order play optimally? Such as how the EL3N's work, but not as how they would natively? And is there anything we can do to fix that, such as with external heat, simple components, etc.?
  
 Not sure if Mikelap's going to give permission to copy his messages here, but one thing that stood out was that he said the Chatham 6080WA and GEC 6080WA sound very smooth when paired together and he liked what he heard. Anyone have those two to give this a try?
  
 Next I want to ask advice from anyone who knows about or best has the Tung Sol 5998's:
 - Which type do you think sounds the best, and why? (this tube has had several revisions over some 20+ years being made, I believe)
 - What about the version with green lettering on the base and a chrome top, how does this one sound? That one's a beauty
  My preference would be the 'domino plates' version, as those are the same plates as my 421A's that sound so astonishing


----------



## mordy

As you all know, jug bands and string bands are part of American folk music. Here is an informal session with two excellent Japanese bands having a lot of fun with a string band classic. There is a certain humility in how different band members take solos that in addition to the music is very endearing.
  
 I am not familiar with the wooden percussion instrument, but it is played similar to a washboard. Also interesting is the steel guitar played by the leader of the Hollowaiians:
  
 Old Southern Jug Blowers:


----------



## richdytch

henriks said:


> My new setup and a video..







henriks said:


> I got the Mojo bite, and upgraded it (o: at the moment i am using chromecast audio..




Ah, got you ...


----------



## mordy

And just in case you are not among the 19 million people that have watched this music video, I know that you will enjoy it. (Posted once before but I think on the original Elise thread)
  

  
 Very well recorded and exceptional photography


----------



## Spork67

decentlevi said:


> Hypnos1, were you basically saying that the 5998's are able to work on the Elise but need special settings in order play optimally? Such as how the EL3N's work, but not as how they would natively? And is there anything we can do to fix that, such as with external heat, simple components, etc.?
> 
> Not sure if Mikelap's going to give permission to copy his messages here, but one thing that stood out was that he said the Chatham 6080WA and GEC 6080WA sound very smooth when paired together and he liked what he heard. Anyone have those two to give this a try?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I can't say how mine sound compared to other TS 5998s - but they do sound amazing.
 1950's version.

  
 I had 4 more tubes turn up today - but can't try them until my 2nd EL3N(x2) tp 6AS7G adapter arrives.
 Re: the packaging on EL3N - does anyone else feel like they are opening up a xmas Bob-Bon when you unwrap them?
 All that's missing is the little bit of gunpowder to go "BANG!"


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Hypnos1, were you basically saying that the 5998's are able to work on the Elise but need special settings in order play optimally? Such as how the EL3N's work, but not as how they would natively? And is there anything we can do to fix that, such as with external heat, simple components, etc.?
> 
> Not sure if Mikelap's going to give permission to copy his messages here, but one thing that stood out was that he said the Chatham 6080WA and GEC 6080WA sound very smooth when paired together and he liked what he heard. Anyone have those two to give this a try?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi DL.
  
 As with the EL3N, I believe the main alteration in the circuit would be the bias setting...although there could possibly be other areas that also need "fine tuning" to achieve the best results... and therefore would require working inside the amp. Mind you, given the results we get from both these "non-native" tubes in Elise, their optimum requirements must presumably be very close to the amp's particular settings anyway LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...(I'm sure the F-A guys have managed to do something "outside the box" with this amp, especially considering how flexible/forgiving it appears to be!).


----------



## hypnos1

Well, guys...how to go from joy to sadness in less than a week lol - from success with adapting my Valvo EL11 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to disaster with my Australian EL3NG! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Just a tad too much pressure in the vice - glass and vices are a recipe for disaster! ...Thought I was being careful, but the glass around the base is much thinner than I expected, and...POP!!..._gutted!!!_  And all because I don't want to stick a second base underneath the original, adapter-style...which would be much easier and safer, but not look anywhere near as nice, plus must surely degrade the sound even if only a little lol!
  
 Anyway, for those of a nervous disposition I shall forewarn you of a photo of the dastardly deed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 One thing as a result, however, is a closeup view of the mesh plate used in this tube, as with the old Valvo EL11...poor compensation though alas!!
  
  
 Said (SAD!!) EL3NG :
  

  
  

  
 Just look how fine that mesh weave is...solid plates must be much easier to manufacture and employ. No wonder there don't seem to be too many tubes around with such mesh! Can't wait to see if they actually _*sound*_ any better/different for it though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 'Scuse me now folks while I go weep some more...(the things we do in this hobby of ours LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Spork67

hypnos1 said:


> Well, guys...how to go from joy to sadness in less than a week lol - from success with adapting my Valvo EL11
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Our condolences h1, we all feel your pain.


----------



## DecentLevi

@Spork67 yup, those are the 'domino plates' in the photo of your Tung Sol 5998's above, which are the same kind of plates used in my Western Electric 421A's (but the internal similarities stop there), of which both Tung Sol / W.E. were made at the Chatham factory. 
 Would anybody else be able to chime in on my previous questions about the TS 5998's, such as a comparison of different versions, or how the newer looking version with green lettering sounds?
 (as below):

 I'm planning to get a pair soon but need direction in which version to get of these long manufactured tubes. Interestingly, I also discovered that Chatham and Tung Sol 5998 are identical according to this post, but I can see some minor differences. Looks like those aren't any cheaper though. Maybe @MIKELAP, @gibosi or @rosgr63 would be able to advise which to get?
  
 Also @hypnos1 was that the EL11 or EL3NG that you broke? Either way there are still other pairs available on eBay. Good luck


----------



## DecentLevi

Incoming today was a pair of *Thomson-CSF 6080WA* tubes for the Elise:

  
 I thought I'd take a chance on this little known brand, since they were local to me and cheap ($30/ pair). First impression was they have a very good FR, a nice lushness, and treble detail. Compared to the Mullard 6080's, these have a weightier bass and have that upper-mids / lower treble that seem to be a very slight void with the Mullards. Unfortunately this lower treble region also seems to sound somewhat metallic as if slightly grainy / artificial in some odd way. Also the dynamics / slam is behind the Mullards. I really wanted to like these better than the Mullards and they do seem to have their place in audiophile bliss nevertheless, depending on the music... further burn-in will tell if any changes come about.
  
 BTW, my burn-in period of new tube experimentation usually hovers around 30 hrs... still under-baked?


----------



## DecentLevi

Speaking of @MIKELAP, here's the quote he's given me permission to post :
  
 "Hey Levi sure i remember you,
 so i see you like the the 6H13C Russian power tube they do sound nice For a darker sound sig. 
 Regarding the GEC 6080... I've read somewhere that there wasnt much difference between the tubes that all i can tell you .I used the 6080WA GEC and a 6080WA Chatham together and i liked what i heard very smooth. By the way I mostly use a pair of Senns HD800   This week got the 800S model like it alot more bass a little less in the highs. 
  
 They say the ST shape is better i would like to see how much better its probably only subtle differences. I have several pairs of 5998 Tungsol and a pair of 2399 Chathams _(I this this refers to the Chatham 5998's)_ all in all they sound pretty much the same to me but im no spring chicken so  subtility's i probably dont ear anyways .the GEC 6AS7G that hynos1 has you probably know he lucked out on those because they were rebranded Haltron's if i remember correctly and the seller didnt know what he had  so maybe thats a brand you could be on the look out for. But for sure i would like to ear what all the fuss is about lol."


----------



## DecentLevi

Edited my above post to direct that question on the broken tube to Hypnos (CJ) instead of Howie


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> @Spork67 yup, those are the 'domino plates' in the photo of your Tung Sol 5998's above, which are the same kind of plates used in my Western Electric 421A's (but the internal similarities stop there), of which both Tung Sol / W.E. were made at the Chatham factory.
> Would anybody else be able to chime in on my previous questions about the TS 5998's, such as a comparison of different versions, or how the newer looking version with green lettering sounds?
> (as below):
> 
> ...


 
 I don't recall breaking any tube. I once broke a dual 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter the first time I tried to rotate it and was too vigorous and a wire came astray.
  
 EDIT: Just seen your #3023- I read the posts backwards, LOL.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Edited my above post to direct that question on the broken tube to Hypnos (CJ) instead of Howie


 
  
 It was the Australian EL3NG alas, which appears to be even rarer than the OLD, black glass Valvo EL11 lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Luckily, I've two more such Valvos on the way...with which I shall be MUCH more careful!! - I suspect there are very few of these mesh-plate tubes out there. And I doubt the obviously _later_ Valvo EL11s are meshed - they look exactly like the TF/RFT silver/grey glass versions, with solid plates...
  
  
 And thanks to all those who have felt my pain...it still smarts LOL!!...but lesson learned at least...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> decentlevi said:
> 
> 
> > Edited my above post to direct that question on the broken tube to Hypnos (CJ) instead of Howie
> ...


 

 OOH this is terrible I .didn't even know there was a Australian EL3NG mesh plate.
 I feel your pain Think I would be in the corner crying.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> OOH this is terrible I .didn't even know there was a Australian EL3NG mesh plate.
> I feel your pain Think I would be in the corner crying.


 
  
 Yo Glenn...I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw those meshes...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and as @mordy said, I know you can't really judge from just a single tube, but I sure did like what my right ear was hearing from the meshed Valvo EL11 lol!...roll on its mate!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(there seems to be very little info out there re. either these _meshed_ tubes or EL3N vs EL11).
  
 As you mentioned previously, most folks don't really know just what's involved in adapting tubes...especially when fussy beggars like me try to remove the existing base and replace with another LOL! - I personally like to keep wire lengths to a minimum (let alone use pure silver wire), plus avoid yet another socket in the equation. I'm a firm believer in 'less is more'!...which is fine _*if you don't wreck the darned tube  in the process!!!*_...(am still in that corner...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...)....CHEERS!...


----------



## louisxiawei

Hello Gents,
  
 Hope you all are having a good time during the weekend.
  
 Could you please have a look at these Holy Grail? If they are good as you confirm, I will just pull the trigger for them.
  
@hypnos1, Hi h1, I will be your follower with using EL3N and GEC 6AS7G. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But how long is the GEC 6AS7G's life usually? 3000 hours? If so, I might just listen with this combo occasionally since the stock of Holy Grail is not good at all.
  
 Regards,
 Wei


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> Hello Gents,
> 
> Hope you all are having a good time during the weekend.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi louis...yes, they are indeed the 'real thing' - and with *the *supposed best curved-bottom base...you are to be envied, mon ami! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...WELL DONE in advance, lol!...and can't wait to see what you think of them when driven by the EL3N - I'm quite sure you're in for one real treat...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...CJ
  
 ps. Don't know the projected life of these tubes, but would have hoped it's more like 5,000hrs plus...


----------



## louisxiawei

Thanks for the good words, will post my impression after I get them. @hypnos1
  
@UntilThen, Now I will begin to buy EL3N every month as my personal stock just before they become the next holy grail.
  
  
@whirlwind Yes, sir.
  
 Mullard 6080 or other reasonable price 6as7g + EL3N as everyday use. 
 GEC 6AS7G + EL3N for weekend or special occasion.


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1 
  
 Sorry to learn of the catastrophe.
  
 I received delivery of a T1 this evening only to find it had a broken left channel with no sound at all.
 Real let down, though like you, I heard a very nice sound coming out of the one working channel.


----------



## connieflyer

Just received a pair of Raytheon *JAN 6080WB Vacuum Tubes using with EL3N's and so far sounding very clear and precise, a touch of warmth,  nice bright glow from tubes, nice find from @UntilThen thanks for the tip.  *


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Just received a pair of Raytheon *JAN 6080WB Vacuum Tubes using with EL3N's and so far sounding very clear and precise, a touch of warmth,  nice bright glow from tubes, nice find from @UntilThen thanks for the tip.  *


 
 Was worried that the tubes wouldn't light up. The seller did say that it's been dormant for 40 years. So that pair of Bendix 6080wb graphite plates equivalent at $26 sounded good?
  
 What a bargain. Happy for you.


----------



## sling5s

Just placed order for Elise. I guess it will probably be around Christmas when it arrives. 
 Have my Cavalli and microZOTL2-s to keep me until than.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Just received a pair of Raytheon *JAN 6080WB Vacuum Tubes using with EL3N's and so far sounding very clear and precise, a touch of warmth,  nice bright glow from tubes, nice find from @UntilThen thanks for the tip.  *


 
 Hi CF)) Glad you are enjoying your 6080WBs. A few days ago I received a pair of RCA 6080s I've been driving with EL3Ns. I like this combination. I haven't compared it with EL3N/GEC6080, but I think it's pretty close.
  
 I've  reached burn-out with tube rolling. I'm very happy with what I've got and just don't have the energy or desire to push my Elise beyond my current favorite combos. I've noticed that since I gave up the search for the Holy Grail I don't listen quite as much as when I was obsessed with an endless number of tubes in and out of Elise. I still do listen a lot, and when I do I'm really listening and just enjoying the music.


----------



## UntilThen

sling5s said:


> Just placed order for Elise. I guess it will probably be around Christmas when it arrives.
> Have my Cavalli and microZOTL2-s to keep me until than.


 
 Congrats sling. It will be a happy Christmas.


----------



## sling5s

untilthen said:


> Congrats sling. It will be a happy Christmas.


 

 Thank "UntilThen" (no pun intended).


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> @UntilThen, Now I will begin to buy EL3N every month as my personal stock just before they become the next holy grail.


 
 Are you trying to stockpile them?


----------



## Spork67

Well, apparently each Elise owner needs at least 6 EL3Ns.
 Bound to become scarce in the future.


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1  my condolence on your damaged EL3Ng... the last of the Mohicans. Perhaps the Valvo EL11 will be a good replacement.
  
@pctazhp  my RCA 6080s must be lost in transit. 
  
@HOWIE13  sad to hear your T1 is defective on one channel. Lots of used T1 on the market are defective. If you're buying G1, it's best to buy from a private seller that you know and can trust.


----------



## Spork67

howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> Sorry to learn of the catastrophe.
> 
> ...


 
 I hope you can return / refund your defective T1s H13.
 Receiving faulty goods is a letdown, and can be a real PITA.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Are you trying to stockpile them?


 
 Yes UT. I'm going to stockpile them.
  
 Recently open a discussion with lots of Chinese HIFIers regarding the alternatives for these old-time NOS tubes. Quite a few arguments to be honest, not quite promising future for tube lovers.
  
 If I leave Europe for Shanghai in the future for the settlement, I won't have much access like now to those NOS tubes. Chinese tubes are terrible and cannot replace those NOS tubes at the moment like PSVANE and Shuguang.
  
 So, yes, I will begin to stockpile any NOS tube I think they can make good sound on Elise, though I'm more worried about the tube amplifiers' future in China.
  
 Maybe like what you said before, if all NOS tubes are gone, we are going for Stax.


----------



## Spork67

louisxiawei said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Are you trying to stockpile them?
> ...


 
 Even a lot of STAX guys say they need tubes somewhere in the chain to get the best sound.


----------



## louisxiawei

spork67 said:


> Well, apparently each Elise owner needs at least 6 EL3Ns.
> Bound to become scarce in the future.


 
 So two options 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :
  
 Stop promoting the Elise to others and enjoy the Elise with enough stock EL3N just among us in a small circle, which is so selfish!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 or
  
 EL3N will be scarce and then we hope for the alternative new tubes for it, which I doubt can compete for the EL3N. Just sad.


----------



## mordy

Hi L,
  
 I have been rolling tubes for some 7 years now and participated on several forums. Except for an occasional mishap where a tube broke or suddenly stopped working, I cannot remember anybody actually wearing out a tube. So I would just enjoy the best possible sound in your situation and not worry.
  
 It seems that many of the older, larger tubes were manufactured to have a life span of 5,000 hours, with some made to last 10,000 hours.
  
 In addition, the vacuum tubes were manufactured in huge quantities, and new offerings a continually popping up, although the prices are rising on the more rare/desirable tubes. 
  
 Some tubes are absolutely top notch and not very expensive at all and available in large quantities - another reason not to worry.


----------



## sling5s

deleted.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1  my condolence on your damaged EL3Ng... the last of the Mohicans. Perhaps the Valvo EL11 will be a good replacement.
> 
> @pctazhp  my RCA 6080s must be lost in transit.
> 
> @HOWIE13  sad to hear your T1 is defective on one channel. Lots of used T1 on the market are defective. If you're buying G1, it's best to buy from a private seller that you know and can trust.


 
 Thanks. It was Amazon.co.uk so I thought I would be okay. Anyway another is on it's way, hopefully arriving tomorrow.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> I hope you can return / refund your defective T1s H13.
> Receiving faulty goods is a letdown, and can be a real PITA.


 
 Thanks, yes I bought from Amazon so no problem with replacement. Should be with me tomorrow.


----------



## HOWIE13

It probably won't be a surprise to anyone on this thread to learn that Espressivo also sounds brilliant with EL3N's, so once I've explained to the wife why I just had to buy the T1 I'm going to have to purchase more EL3N's. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 PLEASE don't buy them all up - at least until the end of the year.


----------



## HOWIE13




----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> Sorry to learn of the catastrophe.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H13...(plus @UntilThen and all mourners for me lol!)...and commiserations to you too! But thank goodness at least you can get a replacement - my own disaster is irreversible LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... And you have indeed had an encouraging taste of what's to come! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(I've a feeling we just might be able to get at least _some_ idea of performance from even just _one_ channel - through headphones, that is! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 Hope you don't have a long wait for your replacement...
  


sling5s said:


> Just placed order for Elise. I guess it will probably be around Christmas when it arrives.
> Have my Cavalli and microZOTL2-s to keep me until than.


 
  
 Congrats sling5s and welcome to the club...good choice!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and a wonderful Christmas present - as was mine...a long  while ago now lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...


louisxiawei said:


> So two options
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, louis...limited options alas!
  
 Re. #1 : afraid the cat is well and truly out of the bag now...and not just in Elise land! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...for better or worse, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Re.#2 : we must hope there are still a good few stashes of these tubes out there somewhere...or else we are indeed scr**ed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(y'know, I've a feeling that sometimes it's not until someone rediscovers a tube, and it becomes popular, that such supplies then suddenly appear on the market...either that or the prices go through the roof!!..shall err on my (not usual!!) optimistic side! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). And...ssshhh...I don't doubt that the 'ordinary' EL11 (ie with the usual solid plates as opposed to the mesh-plate rarities) will be every bit as good as the EL3N - after all, it is supposed to be simply the latter but with a different base...and who knows, just may be even _better_, given the Telefunken pedigree LOL!!...watch this space!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks H13...(plus @UntilThen and all mourners for me lol!)...and commiserations to you too! But thank goodness at least you can get a replacement - my own disaster is irreversible LOL!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's the most colorful post I've ever seen LOL.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1 and L,
  
 It is an interesting observation that when a tube becomes popular, suddenly more appear for sale.
  
 Take as an example the GEC A1834 in different iterations under different brands and designations - several of these tubes were sold yesterday at prices ranging from $46 -180 each, although another seller got $300 each, maybe because the pair came with boxes.
  
 Scroll down this page to see what the market values are today:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=A1834%20tube&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
  
  
 (No, I did not win anything - yet.....)


----------



## pctazhp

To avoid having said anything misleading and as a quick follow-up to my last post - after about 5 days with the RCA6080s I've gone back to EL3N/GEC6080, and the difference is significant. My sonic memory is poor and when I get away from the GECs I forget how truly special they are. The EL3N/GEC6080 remains my favorite combo by a large margin. It lacks any "electronic" artifacts and sounds so right. Hard for me to imagine it could be improved upon in any significant way. For the price the RCAs are very good, and I feel comfortable recommending them.


----------



## louisxiawei

mordy said:


> Hi h1 and L,
> 
> It is an interesting observation that when a tube becomes popular, suddenly more appear for sale.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Mordy,
  
 Can't see the market values from your link. I just paid £400 for a paired match GEC 6AS7G (new and boxed). $46-180 each? Are they used? Feeling a little bit ripped off.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> To avoid having said anything misleading and as a quick follow-up to my last post - after about 5 days with the RCA6080s I've gone back to EL3N/GEC6080, and the difference is significant. My sonic memory is poor and when I get away from the GECs I forget how truly special they are. The EL3N/GEC6080 remains my favorite combo by a large margin. It lacks any "electronic" artifacts and sounds so right. Hard for me to imagine it could be improved upon in any significant way. For the price the RCAs are very good, and I feel comfortable recommending them.


 
  
 Why am I not surprised, pct?...after all, those GECs _*are*_ almost the ST-bottle A1834/CV2523 LOL!!...so glad you enjoy them... (smiles)...
  


louisxiawei said:


> Hi Mordy,
> 
> Can't see the market values from your link. I just paid £400 for a paired match GEC 6AS7G (new and boxed). $46-180 each? Are they used? Feeling a little bit ripped off.


 
  
 What, louis?...I thought you'd found a supply of really well-priced GECs LOL!!!...if you end up not liking them, I just might go jump in the river...(winks)...
  
 And all I can say is....@mordy...the rest of us must have taken our eyes off the ball, to be sure!!...mind you, I doubt they could have had good readings for those prices?!...(startled face)...
  
 Hey, @HOWIE13....sorry, but I'm staying with the colours, mon ami - much more fun/cheery lol!!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!....


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Why am I not surprised, pct?...after all, those GECs _*are*_ almost the ST-bottle A1834/CV2523 LOL!!...so glad you enjoy them... (smiles)...
> 
> 
> What, louis?...I thought you'd found a supply of really well-priced GECs LOL!!!...if you end up not liking them, I just might go jump in the river...(winks)...
> ...


 
 I love it, takes my mind off those broken headphones.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 One of the pairs went for appr $240 incl shipping. 
 This is how they measured:
  
 Tubes Test :
 Tube 1 =  75 mA - 6.0 mA/v  /  75 mA - 6.0 mA/v
  Tube 2 =  85 mA - 7.0 mA/v  /  80 mA - 6.5 mA/v
  
   
 New AVO 100% book value: 50mA/6.0 mA/v
  
   

 AVO book New 100%  Values :
      50 mA  -  6.0 

 
  
 Would you trust this seller to measure these tubes ?
  
 :
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Me thinks just what the doctor ordered.....
  
 Hi L,
  
 When I mentioned market value, I meant the current selling prices, listed in green by eBay. You can find this information by going to the left of the item you are looking at, and scroll down to Sold Items.


----------



## louisxiawei

hypnos1 said:


> Why am I not surprised, pct?...after all, those GECs _*are*_ almost the ST-bottle A1834/CV2523 LOL!!...so glad you enjoy them... (smiles)...
> 
> 
> What, louis?...I thought you'd found a supply of really well-priced GECs LOL!!!...if you end up not liking them, I just might go jump in the river...(winks)...
> ...


 
 Hey hypnos1,
  
 Yea, can't find any good bargain in UK sadly. £400 for a pair of curved GEC 6AS7G, I think hard and eventually pull the trigger.
  
 Thanks to Brexit (although I prefer UK staying in EU), the value of GBP goes down quite a lot. So £400 for me now is more like £300 before Brexit by converting CNY to GBP. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But by comparing the price of GEC 6AS7 in 2013, £100 for a pair, I still pity my wallet a lot. But in 2013, I'm not in this Elise land and even think Sennheiser Momentum is the best headphone. So time changes, people change.


----------



## louisxiawei

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> One of the pairs went for appr $240 incl shipping.
> This is how they measured:
> ...


 
 Could you please share the link of the $240 pair of GEC 6AS7G? Thanks. 
  
 I literally search GEC 6AS7 everyday on ebay. Didn't see any of the bargain like this.


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Could you please share the link of the $240 pair of GEC 6AS7G? Thanks.
> 
> I literally search GEC 6AS7 everyday on ebay. Didn't see any of the bargain like this.


 
 This MWT brand from Netherlands. I saw it yesterday with 2 hours to go on the auction...plus all the single ones but I wasn't interested in buying anymore tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-MWT-6AS7G-A1834-6080-Brown-base-Cup-Getters-Perfect-Matched-New-Set-/191987484029?hash=item2cb358857d:g:YBAAAOSwmLlX9NDn


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> This MWT brand from Netherlands. I saw it yesterday with 2 hours to go on the auction...plus all the single ones but I wasn't interested in buying anymore tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks UT. Weird enough, they don't ship to UK. 
  
 Btw, is it necessary to buy a matched pair? I found lots of you guys don't even bother matched or not.
  
 If not, that will save me also some money if I want to buy more in the future.


----------



## DecentLevi

Those bottle shaped GEC tubes on eBay_ (which all ended 16 hours ago)_ were findable by searching simply for "6AS7G" on eBay; the listings did not actually include the word GEC, though the seller told me they were made in the same factory as the GEC's, thereby MWT is either a sort of factory code or a rebranded version of those rare GEC's - the only difference being the curved bottom. I was one of the lucky winning bids of the 4 listings - smoothly won the bid right on my way to work at Tesla, and it even happened to be my first time ever winning a bid on eBay.
  
 Per advice from CJ, you just basically wait until the last 10-20 seconds and bid a great margin higher than the others; the max. you're comfortable paying and if you're lucky your bid will fall just slightly over a bid that was much lower than your max. bid entered. CJ (H1) may be able to explain this better than me. Another tip for scouting out rare tubes is searching on hifishark.com then clicking the link at bottom to receive email notifications of your query, when your item becomes available. It's like a used Hi-fi audio search engine that indexes not only eBay, but several other good sources such as Canuck Audio Mart and good 'ol Head-Fi for sale / trade forums.
  
 I certainty don't see how it should be "hard to trust" the quality of a tube just based on bid amounts. The amount of bids received is only a result of random chances that lead people to the listing and are based off face value. OTOH, my impression of the seller's shop photo was he sure seems meticulous and professional! Anyway my 'pair' of ST-shaped GEC's is not a perfectly matched pair however, being sourced from two separate locations.
  
 In the meantime, the W.E. 421A's are a solid performer with the smaller ECC88 Tesla driver tubes


----------



## jelt2359

Buying old tubes in eBay is dicey. You generally have two types: those who say they know nothing about the condition 'I just found it', and those who claim they know a lot 'tested religiously on xyz tester'.
  
 In neither case is it really more than a crapshoot, just be ready for that and be ready to throw out maybe half to three quarters of what you get. The latter group is a bit less of a crapshoot since they run a business, but still, it's happened before.
  
 The way to get bargains though is to do what DL did: look at the pictures, don't look at the labels. That way you'll find mislabeled tubes sometimes...


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> ... I saw it yesterday with 2 hours to go on the auction...plus all the single ones but I wasn't interested in buying anymore tubes.


 
  
 Keep telling yourself that mate, you might just come to believe it.


----------



## Spork67

I hope it is OK to post this here.
  
 Sniping. (on eBay)
  
 It's the ONLY way I buy stuff from ebay apart from "buy it now" items and has been for 6-7 years now.
  
 There are several different software/sites to do this - I use one called Gixen. 
 It's free, or you can upgrade for something like $6 / year - which is peanuts if it saves you $ on just one auction.
  
 How it works:
 You enter the item number and your maximum bid.
 A few seconds before the auction finished, Gixen automatically bids on your behalf. It bids just enough to put your bid in the lead. So, if you put $100 as your max. bid, but the highest anyone else has bid is $60, it will put a $62 bid in on your behalf.
  
 An advantage of this is that it stops those "bidding wars". Sellers love them. Buyers should avoid them.
  
 I never feel guilty about using this - because many, many other people do to. So instead of thinking I have an unfair advantage, I believe it puts me on a level playing field with millions of other ebay users out there.
  
 If you are bidding manually, you are bumping up selling prices, paying more than you should, and losing too many auctions.
  
 Thank me later.


----------



## HOWIE13

_'In the meantime, the W.E. 421A's are a solid performer with the smaller ECC88 Tesla driver tubes'_
  
@DecentLevi mentioning Tesla- I trust the Tesla place you work in now is nothing like this:


----------



## ContractorHei

I'm looking into getting myself one of these to pair with a HD650, but was also wondering how the Espressivo-E compares to the Elise. Anyone with first-hand experience on them (preferably with the HD650)?
  
 I'm asking this because this'll be my first tube amp ever (I have never heard one before either) and because the Elise is twice as expensive and will probably take much longer to get assembled and delivered.
  
 What say you Head-Fi? Elise or Espressivo-E?


----------



## HOWIE13

jelt2359 said:


> Buying old tubes in eBay is dicey. You generally have two types: those who say they know nothing about the condition 'I just found it', and those who claim they know a lot 'tested religiously on xyz tester'.
> 
> In neither case is it really more than a crapshoot, just be ready for that and be ready to throw out maybe half to three quarters of what you get. The latter group is a bit less of a crapshoot since they run a business, but still, it's happened before.
> 
> The way to get bargains though is to do what DL did: look at the pictures, don't look at the labels. That way you'll find mislabeled tubes sometimes...


 
  
 '_be ready to throw out maybe half to three quarters of what you get'_.
  
 Thankfully, that's not been my experience.
 Have not counted how many tubes I've bought, mostly on eBay, but possibly about a hundred in the last 2-3 years. I've had about three duds and another three which sounded fine but whose measurements have not been anything like what was advertised. In all cases the tubes were replaced without fuss, without me having to send the bad one back.
 I do agree there is risk and for that reason I only buy from sellers who permit returns.


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> I hope it is OK to post this here.
> 
> Sniping. (on eBay)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi S67...used to use a similar 'sniping' tool myself, but found I had more successful results taking things into my own hands and hanging on until literally the last couple of seconds, so as to deny time for any further snipe bids  - real scary/risky and needs a very reliable and fast web connection LOL!!!... Much easier and safer to use the sniping tool though...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...
  


contractorhei said:


> I'm looking into getting myself one of these to pair with a HD650, but was also wondering how the Espressivo-E compares to the Elise. Anyone with first-hand experience on them (preferably with the HD650)?
> 
> I'm asking this because this'll be my first tube amp ever (I have never heard one before either) and because the Elise is twice as expensive and will probably take much longer to get assembled and delivered.
> 
> What say you Head-Fi? Elise or Espressivo-E?


 
  
 By all accounts the Elise is definitely the better amp...the Feliks-Audio guys themselves were quite surprised at how the Elise ended up performing...and it reaches even higher levels with tubes we have experimented with since my first 'prototype'. Many have said that the Elise is good enough not to need any further search for a 'better' amp in the foreseeable future...but the Espressivo certainly appears to be wonderful value-for-money nonetheless. So I suppose it comes down to just how much one is prepared/able to spend at the end of the day lol!
  
 Good luck with your choice...they're both very good amps! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> '_be ready to throw out maybe half to three quarters of what you get'_.
> 
> Thankfully, that's not been my experience.
> Have not counted how many tubes I've bought, mostly on eBay, but possibly about a hundred in the last 2-3 years. I've had about three duds and another three which sounded fine but whose measurements have not been anything like what was advertised. In all cases the tubes were replaced without fuss, without me having to send the bad one back.
> I do agree there is risk and for that reason I only buy from sellers who permit returns.


 
  
 I too have had very few disappointments indeed...and in every case I have found ebay buyer protection to be without fault. As jelt mentioned, a close look at the pictures can be helpful (but not _totally_ reliable of course!), as is a close scrutiny of the ebayer's ranking and feedback. But obviously, if the listing is "sold as is" with no indication whatsoever if they even work, then it is indeed a _gamble_ and one must be prepared for whatever the outcome. Sometimes there can indeed be a hidden gem amongst the dross, but no point crying if there isn't LOL!!...all part of the game...


----------



## connieflyer

With all the tubes I have purchased on Ebay, I have never had a bad tube. To make su h a rash statement, like a third to half have to be thrown out is irresponsible, perhaps you are just trying to keep Allot the tubes for yourself?


----------



## DecentLevi

Howie congrats on your being able to get a replacement on your T1's. The most common reason for one channel dying on these is because the wire that connects to the membrane (driver) is hair-thin, and a careful solder will fix the issue. (as my friend Packdemon of the home startup Tri-Fi Speakers showed me)... speaking of T1's, I've still never gotten to try the real one on the Elise. I've tried a few variations of modded closed versions from the above mentioned, but as of yet these mod attempts are still a work in progress.
  
@jelt2359 while I appreciate your cautiousness, it seems the 'skeptic' side has gotten the best of you. I too disagree 100% with your mistrusting perception of radio tubes on eBay, as I have had nothing but positive experiences from buying at least 25 tube orders from eBay sellers around the world over the past nearly 2 years, without ever receiving the likes of a dud or wrong order. Looks like consensus wins here.
  
 Also for anyone who has yet to explore the market side of Head-Fi, here are the For Sale / Trade Forums:
 http://www.head-fi.org/f/109/for-sale-trade-and-feedback-forums
  
 Also I've just done a comparison between the small ECC88 and much larger EL3N's as driver tubes, both with the W.E. 421A's as powers. While the former give a very clean / dynamic / almost solid-state like sound, the latter sound more expansive with a larger stage and more organic, yet quite less punchy. They both have quite different sound signatures; each having their own advantage, yet pair very well with those power tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Howie congrats on your being able to get a replacement on your T1's. The most common reason for one channel dying on these is because the wire that connects to the membrane (driver) is hair-thin, and a careful solder will fix the issue. (as my friend Packdemon of the home startup Tri-Fi Speakers showed me)... speaking of T1's, I've still never gotten to try the real one on the Elise. I've tried a few variations of modded closed versions from the above mentioned, but as of yet these mod attempts are still a work in progress.
> 
> @jelt2359 while I appreciate your cautiousness, it seems the 'skeptic' side has gotten the best of you. I too disagree 100% with your mistrusting perception of radio tubes on eBay, as I have had nothing but positive experiences from buying at least 25 tube orders from eBay sellers around the world over the past nearly 2 years, without ever receiving the likes of a dud or wrong order. Looks like consensus wins here.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad you like the ECC88. It's not fussy what powers it pairs with and you have their characteristics spot on, depending on the tube of course. The Mullards, for instance, have a very wide sound stage, but a little less inner detail and dynamic than the Teslas. GE smoked/dark glass are warm and Tungsram the most detailed of those I've heard.
 6N6P are very euphonic as are 6N30P, with a bit more upper mid, a little less warm than 6N6P.
  
*Isn't it wonderful the way Elise can adjust and bias for all these different tubes- maybe unique in it's versatility? *(Haven't I read that before somewhere
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) 
  
 Just started to listen with the replacement T1 (excellent Amazon delivered next day) and, inspite of reading it sounds poor until burned in, that's for sure not what I'm hearing.


----------



## pctazhp

I've ordered most of my tubes from Ebay and have not had a single problem. Always got exactly what was represented, packed well and delivered within the time promised.


----------



## supersonic395

Ok people, I need some advice please as I'm looking to roll the tubes but within the limits that I will not be using any external adapters/towers of babel type stuff.
  
 - Tubes have to be within the Elise power parameters
 - Looking for tubes with a lot more bass. More bass and then some more bass.
 - Bass.
  
 Help please


----------



## DecentLevi

Ken Rad VT-231 (native 6SN7 drivers)
 Stock 6H13C (native stock 6AS7 tube)
  
 I've also heard 6SN7W tubes have good bass, and EL3N are also somewhat warm/dark flavored. But tubes will only alter the sound flavor somewhat. For extreme bass, other methods are recommended such as EQ, headphone modding or bass heavy headphones


----------



## supersonic395

decentlevi said:


> Ken Rad VT-231 (native 6SN7 drivers)
> Stock 6H13C (native stock 6AS7 tube)
> 
> I've also heard 6SN7W tubes have good bass, and EL3N are also somewhat warm/dark flavored. But tubes will only alter the sound flavor somewhat. For extreme bass, other methods are recommended such as EQ, headphone modding or bass heavy headphones




Excellent, thank you.

So the ken rads as drivers and the 6h13c as power tubes right? 

Can you pm a reliable seller link for these please especially for the ken rads


----------



## connieflyer

SOOOOO tempted!  http://www.head-fi.org/t/823879/mcintosh-mha100-headphone-amplifier


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> SOOOOO tempted!  http://www.head-fi.org/t/823879/mcintosh-mha100-headphone-amplifier


 
 CF:  I don't know anything about this amp or the current McIntosh company. But back in my audiophile days a good friend of mine was the local McIntosh dealer and I got to hear a lot of Mc gear - all solid state. I was never impressed. Usually I could only listen to it for 5 or 10 minutes before wanting to do something else.
  
 I always thought that the primary Mc customer base consisted of doctors and lawyers who had too much money and too little appreciation for good sound. Personally, if I wanted to spend that kind of money I would probably buy a Utopia and stay with my Elise.
  
 The cosmetic appeal of McIntosh is undeniable, but it's pretty expensive eye-candy ))))


----------



## sling5s

My Elise may arrive in the end of Nov. I'm wondering what are the most recommended tube combination for HD800 that does not require adaptors. Something not expensive and exotic either. Most bang for the buck tubes.
  
 Sorry.... I'm sure this has been discussed many times before.


----------



## DecentLevi

supersonic395 said:


> Excellent, thank you.
> 
> So the ken rads as drivers and the 6h13c as power tubes right?
> 
> Can you pm a reliable seller link for these please especially for the ken rads


 
 Hello, no need to PM this. Yes your driver (front tube) and power (rear tubes) assessment is correct.
  
 I have no recommendations for a specific seller, they're basically all good and if any problem you can usually send it back for an exchange / refund. I actually haven't tried the VT-231's but there are several brands of this type including Ken-Rad and all of this type are supposed to sound somewhat similar. 6H13C is a very solid performer with big stage and very refined with great FR including somewhat fat bass; being the stock tubes means they already come with the Elise if ordering, otherwise these can be found for around $30. I recommend just searching on eBay or HiFiShark for either of these.
  
 If you're willing to wait about two weeks, I'll have at least 3 bass-heavy driver tubes to test out including these and the 'bad boys', so can give you better advice by then.
  
 Of course these are only my impressions, and maybe someone else will have another angle for you. Also which headphones do you have? And didn't I also see you before on the Ember thread?


----------



## HOWIE13

@supersonic395
  
 The Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT231 does have legendary bass but, in general, the VT231 designation only tells you a tube was made during/around the WW2 years.
  
 The very good Sylvania 6SN7 VT231, for example, is a more neutral and upper-mid detailed tube. It's the antithesis of the aforementioned K-R as far as bass is concerned, for me anyway.
  
 As DL says, it doesn't matter how much bass a tube provides, if your headphones are not tuned to reproduce abundant bass frequencies you will not hear exceptionally very strong bass.


----------



## supersonic395

decentlevi said:


> Hello, no need to PM this. Yes your driver (front tube) and power (rear tubes) assessment is correct.
> 
> I have no recommendations for a specific seller, they're basically all good and if any problem you can usually send it back for an exchange / refund. I actually haven't tried the VT-231's but there are several brands of this type including Ken-Rad and all of this type are supposed to sound somewhat similar. 6H13C is a very solid performer with big stage and very refined with great FR including somewhat fat bass; being the stock tubes means they already come with the Elise if ordering, otherwise these can be found for around $30. I recommend just searching on eBay or HiFiShark for either of these.
> 
> ...







howie13 said:


> @supersonic395
> 
> 
> The Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT231 does have legendary bass but, in general, the VT231 designation only tells you a tube was made during/around the WW2 years.
> ...




Cheers for the recommendations, I do have a set of stock tubes so I'll look to get the ken rads and pair them with the stock power tubes. I'm guessing I won't need any kind of adapter for the ken rads right? 

@Levi I'm not sure about the ember (what is it btw) but I've been in the Elise threads before. 

Definitely agree re the headphones for the overall experience but I'm still keen on hearing the ken rads


----------



## HOWIE13

@supersonic395
  
 Correct, you just insert 6SN7 tubes straight into Elise without adapters.


----------



## supersonic395

howie13 said:


> @supersonic395
> 
> 
> Correct, you just insert 6SN7 tubes straight into Elise without adapters.




Excellent! I'll report my findings in due course


----------



## louisxiawei

hypnos1 said:


> What, louis?...I thought you'd found a supply of really well-priced GECs LOL!!!...if you end up not liking them, I just might go jump in the river...(winks)...


 
 My 6AS7G arrived!
  
 H1, I just saved your life. You don't need to go jump in the river. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Laid back on my chair and smile, that's it.
  
  

  

  
 However, I do find these GEC 6AS7Gs are very sensitive, if a little vibrant on my desk, some microphonic sound will appear. Does it happen to you as well? @hypnos1
  
 If so, guess the only way to listen to these holy grails is to sit back still and enjoy.


----------



## richdytch

supersonic395 said:


> Ok people, I need some advice please as I'm looking to roll the tubes but within the limits that I will not be using any external adapters/towers of babel type stuff.
> 
> - Tubes have to be within the Elise power parameters
> - Looking for tubes with a lot more bass. More bass and then some more bass.
> ...




+1 to DL's suggestion of Ken Rad VT231 or in fact their later 6sn7.I also find that 6080 power tubes really allow you driver tubes to show off their bass. In comparison, it's almost like 6as7g high pass filter above about 40hz.6080 feels like switching on a sub in comparison.


----------



## supersonic395

richdytch said:


> +1 to DL's suggestion of Ken Rad VT231 or in fact their later 6sn7.I also find that 6080 power tubes really allow you driver tubes to show off their bass. In comparison, it's almost like 6as7g high pass filter above about 40hz.6080 feels like switching on a sub in comparison.


 

 Is there are particular 6080 power tube that you could recommend to complement the Ken Rad tubes for that bass/sub like feel?


----------



## supersonic395

Could someone kindly refer some reliable sellers for the Ken Rad VT 231 please?


----------



## supersonic395

Also is it possible to use GEC 6AS7-GA tubes as drivers with the 6H13C as powers or will the Elise blow up?


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> My 6AS7G arrived!
> 
> H1, I just saved your life. You don't need to go jump in the river.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks louis...I (and my better half!) are extremely grateful for the stay of execution lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Am really glad they reached you in good condition...I am always a nervous wreck imagining just what _might_ happen to such treasures when in the hands of certain carriers!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 These also keep improving with burn-in, so your joy is undoubtedly set to rise even further LOL...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...and ENJOY!!...CJ
  
 ps. I am in fact _*extremely*_ envious of you - of the four that I have, only ONE has the curved-bottom base...so you are in fact _ahead_ of me!..NOT FAIR!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(mind you, I do have a second Osram curved, but it has one plate much weaker than the other, which of course is useless in an amp using just the one power tube. However - strangely enough - when partnering another, it doesn't seem to lack power...it did at first, but somehow or other it managed to catch up with the 'good' one..._weird!!_...).
  
 pps. On the subject of _*bass*_...what I personally have found is that the top rank 6AS7Gs deliver a bass that may not _seem_ obviously "immense", but is in fact blessed with more subtlety, detail and finesse...which, for me, is _*much*_ more preferable - quality over _quantity_ any day LOL!


----------



## louisxiawei

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks louis...I (and my better half!) are extremely grateful for the stay of execution lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the good words, H1.
  
 You might miss the comment beneath the pictures, apology to ask you this again.
 However, I do find these GEC 6AS7Gs are very sensitive, if a little vibrancy on my desk, some microphonic sound will appear. Does it happen to you as well for some certain tubes?@UntilThen @hypnos1
  
 If so, guess the best way to listen to these holy grails is to sit back still and enjoy.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks H13...(plus @UntilThen and all mourners for me lol!)...and commiserations to you too! But thank goodness at least you can get a replacement - my own disaster is irreversible LOL!!!  ...




What sort of talk is this, CJ? You _will_ find a replacement and you _will_ have fun finding it. Is that clear now?


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks for the good words, H1.
> 
> You might miss the comment beneath the pictures, apology to ask you this again.
> However, I do find these GEC 6AS7Gs are very sensitive, if a little vibrant on my desk, some microphonic sound will appear. Does it happen to you as well for some certain tubes?@UntilThen @hypnos1
> ...


 
  
 Hi again louis.
  
 Must admit I've never found my GECs microphonic...just the occasional driver. It can in fact be quite common for new tubes to be slightly microphonic for a short while, before settling down. Are they so with other drivers? I personally sit my amp - and other equipment - on three wood 'cones', just to help with isolation...with the added benefit of possible improved sound also lol!
  
 What I shall say is that IF they remain _*severely*_ microphonic after a good bit more burn-in time, and with different drivers, you just _might_ have to consider (dread the thought!) of returning them...for that money, you shouldn't have to suffer this particular 'anomaly' to too great a degree! But I'm fairly sure they will indeed settle down nicely fairly soon...my best wishes that they do...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> What sort of talk is this, CJ? You _will_ find a replacement and you _will_ have fun finding it. Is that clear now?


 
  
 Message received and understood, my dear O...thanks for the reassurance lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
  
 I shall indeed be looking far and wide for a replacement. Unfortunately, my researches so far have only confirmed my fears that these particular mesh-plate tubes appear indeed to be _*extremely*_ rare. But, of course, tubes do have a habit of sometimes reappearing out of the blue all of a sudden...or is that yet another case of my _optimistic_ side making a very rare appearance?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(after all, it is already working overtime on the hope that my 2 incoming Valvo EL11s also possess said meshes LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...will keep you informed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## supersonic395

supersonic395 said:


> Also is it possible to use GEC 6AS7-GA tubes as drivers with the 6H13C as powers or will the Elise blow up?


 

 Anyone please?


----------



## Oskari

supersonic395 said:


> Also is it possible to use GEC 6AS7-GA tubes as drivers with the 6H13C as powers or will the Elise blow up?




That will fry your amp. Don't do it!


----------



## louisxiawei

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again louis.
> 
> Must admit I've never found my GECs microphonic...just the occasional driver. It can in fact be quite common for new tubes to be slightly microphonic for a short while, before settling down. Are they so with other drivers? I personally sit my amp - and other equipment - on three wood 'cones', just to help with isolation...with the added benefit of possible improved sound also lol!
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks H1,
  
 I will pay attention and try to burn in for a while with different drivers and see what happens. The microphonic sound only comes from one channel, so not quite normal at the moment. 
  
 Regards,
 Wei


----------



## supersonic395

oskari said:


> That will fry your amp. Don't do it!


 

 Ok cool, I'll not be doing that.
  
 Still, any recommendations for reputable sellers of the Ken Rad VT 231 and the 6080 would be much appreciated.


----------



## hypnos1

supersonic395 said:


> Anyone please?


 
  
 Hi s395....I suggest you listen to Uncle Oskari, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...those are definitely not meant as drivers!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks UT,
> 
> I will pay attention and try to burn in for a while with different drivers and see what happens. The microphonic sound only comes from one channel, so not quite normal at the moment.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again Wei...UT and I do indeed usually agree on most things LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...CHEERS!!...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

ps. @louisxiawei...I am assuming here that @UntilThen _*does*_ indeed agree with my words LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...am sure he does...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## richdytch

supersonic395 said:


> Is there are particular 6080 power tube that you could recommend to complement the Ken Rad tubes for that bass/sub like feel?




Hi Supersonic. RCA are cheap and plentiful and do a great job with Ken Rads and also EL3N. Similarly Mullard 6080, must current faves, which I think are about £20 each from Langley. I'd give some used RCA for about 5-8 dollars a pop first and see if you get on with them. They really are good tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

@louisxiawei  what you need to do with the GEC 6AS7G is to sit back and listen. Don't move and hold your breath. Everything will be fine.
  
 And listen to Uncle @hypnos1


----------



## UntilThen

@supersonic395  these are drivers and powers that I've and which sounds strong in bass to me... varying degrees.
  
*Drivers*
 ECC31
 RCA 6SN7gt VT-231 smoke glass
 RCA 6N7GT
 EL3N
 FDD20
 Tung Sol 6SN7gtb re-issue (stock drivers)
  
*Powers*
 5998
 7237 (leaner and tighter)
 Bendix 6080wb
 RCA 6AS7G (more bloated)
 Svetlana 6H13C (stock powers)
 Mullard 6080
 RCA 6080


----------



## louisxiawei

hypnos1 said:


> ps. @louisxiawei...I am assuming here that @UntilThen _*does*_ indeed agree with my words LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Just realised that my previous comment got your name wrong and calling you UT. My apology. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Like I said great minds think alike.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks again H1 @hypnos1.


----------



## supersonic395

richdytch said:


> Hi Supersonic. RCA are cheap and plentiful and do a great job with Ken Rads and also EL3N. Similarly Mullard 6080, must current faves, which I think are about £20 each from Langley. I'd give some used RCA for about 5-8 dollars a pop first and see if you get on with them. They really are good tubes.


 
  
 Ah gotcha, I'll give them a look! Thank you for the recommendations


----------



## UntilThen

For bass impact it's hard to beat the 5998 unless you go with multiple power tubes like 4x6BL7 and 6n23p as drivers.

IMO the stock tubes gives a very satisfying bass impact.


----------



## supersonic395

untilthen said:


> @supersonic395  these are drivers and powers that I've and which sounds strong in bass to me... varying degrees.
> 
> *Drivers*
> ECC31
> ...


 
  
 Thank you for this list! 
  
 I'll be keeping this handy, but the will be trying to source some Ken Rads and pair them with the stock powers and then either the RCA 6080 or Mullard 6080.
  
 Having listened to both the stock the stock power tubes and the GE 6AS7-GA as power tubes, I prefer the stock power tubes. I used both extensively with the stock drivers.
  
 Edit:
  
 I'll look into the 5998 too, but at this point I'm going to change the drivers and see how that goes 
  
 Edited for accuracry


----------



## hypnos1

supersonic395 said:


> Thank you for this list!
> 
> I'll be keeping this handy, but the will be trying to source some Ken Rads and pair them with the stock powers and then either the RCA 6080 or Mullard 6080.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again s395...I think you're referring to the American GE (General Electric) 6AS7GA, not the British GEC tubes (6AS7G/CV2523/A1834 and straight-bottle 6080). I'm afraid the GEs are not by any means in the same league as the GECs lol...but are much cheaper!!!


----------



## supersonic395

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again s395...I think you're referring to the American GE (General Electric) 6AS7GA, not the British GEC tubes (6AS7G/CV2523/A1834 and straight-bottle 6080). I'm afraid the GEs are not by any means in the same league as the GECs lol...but are much cheaper!!!


 

 Yup, I am indeed referring to the General Electric ones. Will be getting some Mullard 6080 very soon, but the priority remains the Ken Rads  

 Edited the post for better accuracy lol


----------



## UntilThen

supersonic395 said:


> Yup, I am indeed referring to the General Electric ones. Will be getting some Mullard 6080 very soon, but the priority remains the Ken Rads
> 
> Edited the post for better accuracy lol


 
 Amongst the 6SN7, Ken Rad VT231 are notable for their bass. Refer to http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread.
  
 Quoting one of the reviewers... 
 “the Ken Rad VT-231 is often referred to as the very best 6SN7 for low end [referring to bass, not low-quality equipment], and I've heard nothing to contradict that” –Hirsch
  
 You should try EL3N as drivers with Mullard 6080 as power tubes. I think you will like this combination.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks to @mordy  the 4 RCA 6080s finally arrived after one month. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He bought on my behalf as the seller does not ship downunder. 
  
 I have the opportunity to listen to them for 2 hours before one of the pair gave out a pop sound and that killed my HD650 right channel. Don't feel bad Mordy. Nothing to do with you. When I buy tubes, I'm prepared for such mishaps. On the contrary, I want to thank you for packing it so well and sending it to me. Really appreciate that. 
  
 On the RCA 6080 sound. It's certainly a lighter tone compared to RCA 6AS7G. It's tighter and has more precision. It's not as euphonic sounding (my ears) as the Bendix 6080 but nevertheless an exceptionally good sound paired with EL3N as drivers. For the price it's a no brainer. RCA 6080 has a nice bass impact. I'm listening now with PSB M4U2. Lovely tone. Not wanting to risk my T1 until I'm sure this other pair is stable. 
  
 The pair on the left are the defective ones. Or at least one of them.


----------



## UntilThen

A change in headphone makes all the difference. Using PSB M4U2 with EL3N and RCA 6080. It's a great tone for casual listening. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What HiFi reviews on the M4U2.. the pros:-
  
 Exciting, engaging sound
 Big, powerful sound
 Flexible listening modes
 Punchy bass
 Clean, clear midrange


----------



## connieflyer

Sorry to hear about your 650's, always a bummer when you lose something that you are comfortable with.  Decided to try the Ken-Rad vt231's with the Raytheon 6080 graphite plates.  Just got through listening to Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra and the kettle drums are very well defined and hard hitting with this combo. And of course the intro does go very low indeed, and the organ at the end is clear as a bell.  Have to leave these in before trying different drivers.  Thanks again @UntilThen


----------



## connieflyer

If you like a nice jazz quartet Charles Lloyd deserves a listen, great on the sax.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Sorry to hear about your 650's, always a bummer when you lose something that you are comfortable with.  Decided to try the Ken-Rad vt231's with the Raytheon 6080 graphite plates.  Just got through listening to Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra and the kettle drums are very well defined and hard hitting with this combo. And of course the intro does go very low indeed, and the organ at the end is clear as a bell.  Have to leave these in before trying different drivers.  Thanks again @UntilThen


 
 Thanks. Not much you can do when that happens. It's been one good year with the HD650.
  
 Ken Rad vt231 6sn7gt with Raytheon 6080wb graphite plates will be a killer combo.
  
 However this EL3N and RCA 6080 combo is really growing on me. I'm listening with T1 now. 'Streets of Philadelphia' by Bruce Springsteen. Drum beats have a lovely impactful tone. Bruce's mercurial voice sounds magical. The backing vocals and instruments have that euphonic quality. Excellent sonic presentation. Mordy is right about this combo.
  
@supersonic395  I suggest you check out EL3N as drivers and RCA 6080 as powers. If you are seeking impactful bass with vibrant mids and clear highs, you will find them in this combo. Best of all, it's cheap.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 I feel terrible that you had a problem with one of the tubes and that it killed one channel on your headphones. When I got the tubes I briefly tested them for functionality and compared them to my own, but I had no idea that you would have this problem.
  
 As several others have mentioned, it is very rare to get defective tubes ordered through eBay, and I have had good luck with several hundred tubes. Hopefully you will find an easy and inexpensive solution to fix the headphones.
  
 I am glad that you like the sound of the RCA 6080 tubes. They pair beautifully with the EL3N, and are my present favorites. And best of all, they are easy to find, inexpensive, and plentiful.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> I feel terrible that you had a problem with one of the tubes and that it killed one channel on your headphones. When I got the tubes I briefly tested them for functionality and compared them to my own, but I had no idea that you would have this problem.
> 
> ...


 
 Don't feel bad Mordy. You were too kind to buy on my behalf, test it and repack and send it to me. 
  
 It's rare but tubes can go bad. I did get a buzz several minutes before the pop but I continue using. Nevertheless not to worry. I still have the T1 and HE560 as well as the PSB M4U2. 
  
 The bass is quite infectious. It has a nice thump but it's a lot tighter than the RCA 6AS7G. This makes it enjoyable to listen with EL3N.
  
 So impressed was I with it that I just purchased another pair from Langrex. Hope they sound identical. 
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/262052511340?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
@Spork67  don't worry this is the last.


----------



## supersonic395

untilthen said:


> Thanks. Not much you can do when that happens. It's been one good year with the HD650.
> 
> Ken Rad vt231 6sn7gt with Raytheon 6080wb graphite plates will be a killer combo.
> 
> ...




Do the EL3N tubes require an adapter for the Elise? 

I essentially won't be considering any tubes or combos that require adapters/external power etc 

Will also not be doing any multi-tube setups either.


----------



## UntilThen

supersonic395 said:


> Do the EL3N tubes require an adapter for the Elise?
> 
> I essentially won't be considering any tubes or combos that require adapters/external power etc
> 
> ...


 
 I like your style. Clean living. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wouldn't recommend external power supplies or the need to go multi tubes setups. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 EL3N does need adapters but they are perfectly alright. 2 big white adapters like Panda's eyes. 
  
 I think we have many here who will attest to the EL3N sound. You should read their impressions.
  
 This is how it looks. Beautiful Panda's eyes.


----------



## Spork67

supersonic395 said:


> Do the EL3N tubes require an adapter for the Elise?
> 
> I essentially won't be considering any tubes or combos that require adapters/external power etc
> 
> ...


 
  
 My thoughts exactly - until I started reading more and buying EL3Ns, and vintage Visseaux.....


----------



## frederick-rea

supersonic395 said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > @supersonic395  these are drivers and powers that I've and which sounds strong in bass to me... varying degrees.
> ...


 
*Pay Attention that almost drivers mentioned must have adapters to use them with Elise*


----------



## mordy

The power tube 7237 should read 7236 in the list.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> The power tube 7237 should read 7236 in the list.


 
 Yes, I've just created a new tube. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 On the question of single adapters, I certainly have no qualms about using those drivers with adapters. Take ECC31 for instance. One of the better sounding drivers in Elise in my opinion. However if you so choose to remain in 6SN7, you still have a lot of different sounding drivers but the sonic difference is not as vast as if you had ventured into 6N7G, EL3N, ECC31 or C3g.


----------



## UntilThen

I did a back to back listen between the RCA 6080 and Mullard 6080. I hate doing comparisons now because it involves effort listening. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 On first listen, they sounded very similar but after swapping them twice, it became apparent where the difference lies.
  
 RCA 6080 is more mid and bass centric. Mullard 6080 emphasis is more from mids to highs. Mullard sounds leaner whilst the RCA is more full on.
  
 Surprisingly I prefer the RCA 6080 with EL3N over the Mullard. This is where opinions will differ depending on preference. There's no right or wrong.
  
 One thing is certain. Elise sounds very good with all the tubes I roll. From expensive to cheap ones.
  
 I've just received a note from @louisxiawei  that he's overjoyed with what he's hearing from EL3N and GEC 6AS7G. He better be !!! Those GEC 6AS7G are $400 a pair. !!!


----------



## connieflyer

I had been using the EL3N's with the Raytheon graphite plate 6080 and love it. Just started trying different drivers with these 6080's so the journey has just begun for me. Whaat I find so interesting with this amp,is that if I was given just one set of my tubes to use and said that's all there is, I would be happy with the amp. The combination of different tubes does change the personality of the amp, and while I like some better than others, I have not found any that would make me that them out and shoot them.  It is a very good platform to listen to, and I have not found any combo that I would say were earth shattering, some I have found to be very exciting and some have helped to put me in an altered state, (okay some of that may have been the Scotch) and I for one am glad to reap the rewards of the early designers of this.  Hopefully they can make some improvements, but I have a feeling they would not be a game changer as far as selling this amp for a new version of Elise. New adopters would be very lucky indeed.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > The power tube 7237 should read 7236 in the list.
> ...




I cannot recommend this. :rolleyes:



 http://yabe.chudov.com/Amperex-7237-Power-air-cooled-triode-16058/ebayhist.html
 http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/201/7/7237.pdf


----------



## connieflyer

Perhapsjust the Heineken


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I cannot recommend this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 What the.... there is a 7237. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Perhaps this will give us the subwoofer bass.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> What sort of talk is this, CJ? You _will_ find a replacement and you _will_ have fun finding it. Is that clear now?


 
  
 Well, O...not too sure about the _*fun *_part, mon ami. Have just received my second old, black glass Valvo EL11 - it actually looks identical to my first one with the mesh plate, but as the saying goes : "curiouser and curiouser"...this one does *not* have said mesh plate...and I'm about to go cry in the corner again lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...So yet another case of "revisions", it would appear - and as yet no idea whatsoever as to which *might* include this enticing alteration...(the clarity has suddenly got rather _foggy__!!!_). Perhaps my other one in transit might just do the honours...if not, methinks my recklessness will come back to haunt me BIG time LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(For whom is the bell tolling, I wonder?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  


untilthen said:


> I did a back to back listen between the RCA 6080 and Mullard 6080. I hate doing comparisons now because it involves effort listening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Phew, UT...thank the Gods - never mind the cost - it's my _*sanity*_ that's on the line here LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Phew, UT...thank the Gods - never mind the cost - it's my _*sanity*_ that's on the line here LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hahaha ... it's ok ... your claims are substantiated with this combo. He's overjoyed with tears. !!!


----------



## UntilThen

Fourscore and seven years ago Elise came to my home. Oh no... I'm getting confused with the Gettysburg Address.
  
 My Elise is One (years old) today and she's still sounding as good as when she first arrived last year on the 27th Oct.
  
 That fateful day when the robin sings and the sky is blue.
  
 Would I still recommend Elise as your first tube amp? You bet. At $699, it's the best bang for your buck. !!!


----------



## connieflyer

I agree with that statement. The Elise just WORKS, it does a very good job with whatever kind of music you throw at it,tube rolling is a breeze, and subtle nuances ae everywhere


----------



## UntilThen

CF you are having too much fun. Don't forget to walk Conner.


----------



## louisxiawei

hypnos1 said:


> Phew, UT...thank the Gods - never mind the cost - it's my _*sanity*_ that's on the line here LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


untilthen said:


> Hahaha ... it's ok ... your claims are substantiated with this combo. He's overjoyed with tears. !!!


 
  
 True story. My best regards to both of you, gents.


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> CF you are having too much fun. Don't forget to walk Conner.


 Conner does not let you forget the walks. I have to leave his leash out on the deck, otherwise he would drag it around the house to let me know, it is always time for a walk


----------



## connieflyer

Well,@UntilThen I think I am done messing with the system now.  Moved the Sony Haps-1 digital server and the PS Audio DSD DAC, and the Elise to a table next to my recliner. No longer need the pc a music source for the ELise  Sony recently did a software upgrade and what was the usb port for external storage, they made a two way connection, and now can use the usb connection out to the dac, to the elise. To easy not to move now.


----------



## UntilThen

That looks beautiful. A top class system now. I'm sure you are enjoying it.


----------



## connieflyer

That I am. Going to try the c3g's with the 6080 and then go back to the 6 pack.


----------



## UntilThen

Back to basics. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Bendix 6080wb.


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13 where you at now with your tubes? I'm with this combo now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 RCA 6SN7gt VT231 Smoke Glass and Tung Sol 5998. Really cool.
  
 Listening to Leonard Cohen's latest album. Might be his last.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @HOWIE13 where you at now with your tubes? I'm with this combo now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm going a bit crazy at the moment with my new T1. Just trying all different tube combos and finding it fascinating as the T1 changes character so readily depending on the tube.
  
 Yesterday, on the other thread, I posted a set-up I was enjoying with female vocals 'cos to my ears this is the hardest sound to reproduce satisfactorily, and it was T-S 6080 and Bad Boys. Lovely immersive sound.
 Today I'm going to see how much detail I can draw out of the T1 so may be looking at Raytheon and Thomson 6068, Sylvania 6AS7, 5998. Drivers will try some 6DJ8 's, C3g's, K-R and Sylvania VT231's. Also 6 pack of course. I'll see how much instrumental detail I can pick up in Chamber music without getting ear fatigue.
  
 It's fun to have new cans and a tube amp that can so readily handle even 600 ohms.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I'm going a bit crazy at the moment with my new T1. Just trying all different tube combos and finding it fascinating as the T1 changes character so readily depending on the tube.
> 
> Yesterday, on the other thread, I posted a set-up I was enjoying with female vocals 'cos to my ears this is the hardest sound to reproduce satisfactorily, and it was T-S 6080 and Bad Boys. Lovely immersive sound.
> Today I'm going to see how much detail I can draw out of the T1 so may be looking at Raytheon and Thomson 6068, Sylvania 6AS7, 5998. Drivers will try some 6DJ8 's, C3g's, K-R and Sylvania VT231's. Also 6 pack of course. I'll see how much instrumental detail I can pick up in Chamber music without getting ear fatigue.
> ...


 
 That will keep you busy. I have never seen a Sylvania 6AS7 before. Show a picture please. Btw the TS 6080 are quite rare now.
  
 I'm on a roll too. I'm on Mazda 6N7G and 5998 and listening to this on Tidal HiFi.


----------



## HOWIE13

@UntilThen
  
 Very nice voice.
  
 Yes I snagged those T-S tubes fairly cheaply. One is microphonic so I can't dance around the room when it's on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Here's the picture of the Sylvanias. They look almost the same as RCA but sound very different- cool, with clear, tight bass, very sweet treble and slightly recessed mids, enhancing the sound-stage. They don't have the lower-mid bloom I hear with my RCA's, but I appreciate others hear the RCA's differently from me.
  
 Elise is warming up as I type for today's tube rolling session with T1


----------



## HOWIE13

Another exciting day of discovery with my new T1g2 and Elise.
  
 For Chamber music, extra special treble fizz and presence was provided with great results by Thomson 6080 powers and Sylvania VT231 drivers. 
  
 For Grand Piano I was very impressed by the combination of 5998 powers and Ken-Rad VT231 drivers. Best reproduction of piano I've heard, to date.


----------



## connieflyer

I will have to pull the Thomsons out again, they were the first tubes I bought even before the Elise arrived.   Thanks for reminding me of them. @HOWIE13


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I will have to pull the Thomsons out again, they were the first tubes I bought even before the Elise arrived.   Thanks for reminding me of them. @HOWIE13


 
  
 They were also my first purchased power tubes, and at the time I thought they were too bright, but Elise was very new and not burned in and I was probably using them with my now defunct K701's which were bright anyway, and comparing them to Elise's warmer stock power tubes too. It will be interesting to see how you find them now.


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> True story. My best regards to both of you, gents.


 
  
 So glad your enjoyment is probably easing the pain of the expense, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(many happy hours ahead for you, Wei...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13 and UT,
  
 I do have a pair of Sylvania 6AS7G tubes that look identical to Howie's except mine say YCE on them. There is no marking that says 6AS7 on them. I always thought that they were rebranded RCA tubes - they sure look like it.
  
 They sound OK but too soft and slow in the bass region - I miss my RCA 6080s.
  





  
  
 At least they are not Russian Svetlanas with Sylvania logos....
  
 Here I have provided a picture of my RCA 6AS7G tubes - cannot find any difference between these two sets.
  




  
 This pair has the distinction of being the only pair I have of the 6AS7 type with their original boxes. What happens to all the old boxes from the large tubes?


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13 and UT,
> 
> I do have a pair of Sylvania 6AS7G tubes that look identical to Howie's except mine say YCE on them. There is no marking that says 6AS7 on them. I always thought that they were rebranded RCA tubes - they sure look like it.
> 
> They sound OK but too soft and slow in the bass region - *I miss my RCA 6080s.*


 
 How about these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/361220438372?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT ?


----------



## hypnos1

Well, @Oskari...clarity _*and *_faith restored big time! - the other eagerly awaited Valvo EL11 _*does*_ have the mesh plate...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...*and* a loose base, so no risk in trying to remove - miraculous!
  
 And so now I have two matching Valvos and the one remaining Australian EL3NG...am happy once more...(will be even happier when I can finally see just how _two_ of them perform LOL!).
  
 So...a before and after shot :
  

  
 And also...just as a _*WARNING*_ to newcomers on how this hobby can turn you insane - after promising to call a halt to tube hunting/experimenting, I can't even stop here, lol. The search for those elusive mesh-plated EL11s has got me intrigued by the Teslas below...could well be a wild goose chase, but the bug is taking yet another giant chunk out of me...(are you listening @UntilThen?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  

  
 Is there any hope left for poor ol' me?..._*think not!!!*_...CHEERS and goodnight!!


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Well, @Oskari ...clarity _*and*_ faith restored big time! - the other eagerly awaited Valvo EL11 _*does*_ have the mesh plate...









> Is there any hope left for poor ol' me?..._*think not!!!*_...CHEERS and goodnight!!




Not much.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Conner does not let you forget the walks. I have to leave his leash out on the deck, otherwise he would drag it around the house to let me know, it is always time for a walk




Can you show a photo of the beast, CF?


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Is there any hope left for poor ol' me?..._*think not!!!*_...CHEERS and goodnight!!


 
 When you remove the base and fit new gold plated ones, you're too far gone.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Joking... we're looking forward to what you will discover with those Valvo and Teslas.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Can you show a photo of the beast, CF?


 
 You're asking for trouble. It's a Lion !!!


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> Not much.


 
@hypnos1 is an evil man who took over my mush mind and turned me into a person my mother never intended.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> You're asking for trouble. It's a Lion !!!




Yo, UT! How's Finn the microbeast?

And how's Oscar the dog? Fervent


----------



## UntilThen

Finn's a mini Lion.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Finn's a mini Lion.




Awwww. Looking very serious there.


----------



## connieflyer

This is Conner's "I am still waiting look"


----------



## Spork67

Lilly also thinks I should spend more time walking her and less time listening to music.
 I should get a decent set of IEMs so I can do both at once.


----------



## connieflyer

Are the IEM's for her?  She has a nice smile!  When Conner hears music he likes he will come and lay down and listen.  If it is some thing he does not like, he will walk over and lay down in the bathroom, away from the music,


----------



## UntilThen

No time to walk your dog?


----------



## connieflyer

Looks like fun unless the guy in front slows down suddenly !


----------



## Spork67

connieflyer said:


> Are the IEM's for her?  She has a nice smile!  When Conner hears music he likes he will come and lay down and listen.  If it is some thing he does not like, he will walk over and lay down in the bathroom, away from the music,


 
  
 No, she isn't musically inclined at all.
  


untilthen said:


> No time to walk your dog?




  
 When I say "walk" I really mean an outdoor "sniffing eveything and weeing on most of it" session accompanied by her human (who neither sniffs or wees during these outings!)
 She's not an indoor exercise sort of girl (apart from occasional games of chase with the cat).


----------



## UntilThen

Alright who let the dogs out? ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Back to music again.
  
 This song featured in my review of Elise and I love it. EL3N with Bendix 6080wb.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen this is what we use a treadmill up here in norther climates.....


----------



## pctazhp

Today we hit a record high for this day of 37.8 C here in Scottsdale. By evening it was pretty nice, and you all motivated me to take my dog for a walk. We saw a lot of interesting things on the walk. Unfortunately, when we got home I realized I don't own a dog(((
  
 I did take a video of one of the more interesting things I saw on the walk.


----------



## mordy

Here is a old tune called The Whistler and His Dog". This clip has some genuinely funny dog related cartoons that are going to make you smile and laugh out loud:


----------



## mordy

Here is a musical piece in the New Orleans tradition of George Lewis - Hiawatha Rag by the New Orleans Quartet from England. If you wondered what slap bass is you can find the answer here by Annie Hawkins - the Queen of Slap. John Petters is a great drummer in the N.O tradition.

  
 I find this piece very entertaining and fun, watching the improvisations by the musicians.


----------



## DecentLevi

@HOWIE13, interesting so one of your favorite power tubes lately has been the straight-form Thompson-CSF 6080's right? I thought it was good but had some slightly off kilter tonality upper regions, maybe like an upper treble sizzle but that's interesting it gave you the best piano reproduction ever, maybe I should give mine a little more time.
  
 Also I've gotta tell everybody what an absolute knockout made-in-heaven pairing the Modi 2 Multibit is with the Elise. It has 0 faults and does everything with great finesse and realism. Not to say it's the best out there, but easily reaching into summit-fi territory at half the price of many DACs... not to mention a major space saver, about the size of two wallets! 
  
 Howie which DAC is getting most of your time lately, and any thoughts on a comparison between this and the NAD D1050?


----------



## DecentLevi

... update on the Thompson-CSF 6080's - just popped 'em back in and they have basically everything good about the Mullards, with better upper-mids yet a bit of treble glare. Still excellent in their own right, and so cheap they're basically 'free'. Also the dynamics / PRAT & mids are heavenly with smaller driver tubes such as Tesla ECC88


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> @HOWIE13, interesting so one of your favorite power tubes lately has been the straight-form Thompson-CSF 6080's right? I thought it was good but had some slightly off kilter tonality upper regions, maybe like an upper treble sizzle but that's interesting it gave you the best piano reproduction ever, maybe I should give mine a little more time.
> 
> Also I've gotta tell everybody what an absolute knockout made-in-heaven pairing the Modi 2 Multibit is with the Elise. It has 0 faults and does everything with great finesse and realism. Not to say it's the best out there, but easily reaching into summit-fi territory at half the price of many DACs... not to mention a major space saver, about the size of two wallets!
> 
> Howie which DAC is getting most of your time lately, and any thoughts on a comparison between this and the NAD D1050?


 
  
   Good morning (or night for you) DL 
  
_  ' interesting it (Thomson) gave you the best piano reproduction ever'     _
  
   No- see #3147
  
*The best piano sound I've so far experienced is with 5998/K-R VT231 (with T1g2 and D-1050 DAC)*.
  
 The Thomsons were excellent partnered with Sylvania VT231 drivers for Chamber Music instrumental detail, again with the T1g2/D-1050.
  
 The Thomsons, in some of my favourite recordings of Baroque, add a little upper end sparkle and brilliance to the engaging, immersive incandesence of the D-1050/T1g2 combo to spotlight certain higher pitched instruments like flutes and violins from the general mix of low register instruments, like cellos, double bass and organ. That's just the way I personally like to hear this kind of music.
  
 I'm definitely not saying the Thomsons would necessarily pair well with other combos. They probably will be too bright with some cans as they do accentuate the treble but that's the reason I used them in this particular situation. 'Horses for courses.'  For instance, with K701/702 the Thomsons are too bright for my ears.
  
 As for comparing DACs, that's for another day but Mimby, Mojo and D-1050 are all excellent-and different. It doesn't matter though with Elise because tube rolling irons out the differences according to how you want to hear your music.
  
 Also my T1, like Elise, is a chameleon and extremely capable of changing it's character according to needs, so I'm finding it an awesome combination.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> ... update on the Thompson-CSF 6080's - just popped 'em back in and they have basically everything good about the Mullards, with better upper-mids yet a bit of treble glare. Still excellent in their own right, and so cheap they're basically 'free'. Also the dynamics / PRAT & mids are heavenly with smaller driver tubes such as Tesla ECC88


 
 I'm glad you like the Tesla. If you have any 6N6P or 6N30p tubes left over from those halcyon G1217 days I would try them as drivers in Elise as I find them very good too.


----------



## UntilThen

I've not given much thought to D-1050 because I've always attributed the change in tone to tubes and headphones that I swap constantly. The DAC is simply there doing it's job and it's the eventual tone from the setup that I like. Without analysing too much, I find it musical with a pleasing sounding timbre and that alone is good enough for me.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I've not given much thought to D-1050 because I've always attributed the change in tone to tubes and headphones that I swap constantly. The DAC is simply there doing it's job and it's the eventual tone from the setup that I like. Without analysing too much, I find it musical with a pleasing sounding timbre and that alone is good enough for me.


 
 Absolutely.
 That's exactly what I meant when I described Elise as 'chameleon'- you can forget about your DAC, as long as it sounds musical enough for you, and fine tune with Elise.
 Imagine the head and wallet ache having to DAC roll as well.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> *The best piano sound I've so far experienced is with 5998/K-R VT231 (with T1g2 and D-1050 DAC)*.


 
 I can understand why you're smitten with that setup because I use a similar setup occasionally. Only difference being I have a T1 G1 and Sylvania 6SN7wgt with 5998. It's a great tone for rock and roll too ... and most genre.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Imagine the head and wallet ache having to DAC roll as well.


 
 When you get to that stage, you know you're an audiophile.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I can understand why you're smitten with that setup because I use a similar setup occasionally. Only difference being I have a T1 G1 and Sylvania 6SN7wgt with 5998. It's a great tone for rock and roll too ... and most genre.


 
  
 Yes the DAC might be more critical in a set up where you couldn't alter the amp's native sound- like most SS amps. Another potential advantage of tube amps.
  
 It actually struck me that my set up using Sylvania VT231 drivers might result in my g2 sounding not too dissimilar to your g1.
 Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised if your g1 sounded close to my g2 with your 5998 and Sylvania 6SN7wgt set-up.


----------



## UntilThen

You know you're an audiophile when...
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/544391/you-know-youre-an-audiophile-when
  
 Laughing too much here from the comments. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
  
 Omg I can't stop laughing.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> It actually struck me that my set up using Sylvania VT231 drivers might result in my g2 sounding not too dissimilar to your g1.
> Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised if your g1 sounded close to my g2 with your 5998 and Sylvania 6SN7wgt set-up.


 
 That's highly possible. You are getting to know your tube sound well now Howie.


----------



## UntilThen

Samsung to buy Focal? Really?
  
 http://www.reuters.com/article/focal-ma-samsung-elec-idUSL4N1CU308


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> That's highly possible. You are getting to know your tube sound well now Howie.


 
 Three cheers for that aposite post


----------



## Arniesb

untilthen said:


> Samsung to buy Focal? Really?
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/focal-ma-samsung-elec-idUSL4N1CU308


I Think it is good move from Samsung if they gonna buy it. This move will bring many consumers into audiophile world.


----------



## UntilThen

arniesb said:


> I Think it is good move from Samsung if they gonna buy it. This move will bring many consumers into audiophile world.


 
 Yes someday our washing machines and refrigerators will sound good too. 
  
 Hey my Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge might have a Utopia speaker in it.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Amazing - u read all the 6354 posts about "You know that you are and audiophile when"?
  
 My conclusion is that audiophiles like to talk about their hobby.
  
 But you have to be prepared. Say you are showing off your system to a young teenager. After playing a very dynamic recording in it's full glory, you ask: How does it sound?
  
 Answer: Horrible!
  
 What can u do with kids that have been brought up on Dr. Dre Beats?


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 U asked me about this offering:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/361220438372?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&rmvSB=true
  
 Well, I bought four for less than the price of one:
  
  
   





  
 That is $7.05 vs $33.65 for one tube incl shipping. These RCAs have a wonderful satisfying mid bass


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> U asked me about this offering:
> 
> ...


 
 Good find mordy ))) One of the newer RCA 6080s I bought has started to crackle a lot. It is the first tube I've had go bad.
  
 Not wanting my HD800S to join @UntilThen 's HD650 in headphone heaven quite yet, I've gone back to my GEC 6080s, which sound better anyway. I did order a pair of the 1957 RCAs out of curiousity..


----------



## mordy

I have not had problems with tubes blowing up (except caused by faulty adapters) but it seems prudent to be careful if the the tube starts to make unusual noises. In the past when I heard strange noises I would clean the tube pins by gently scraping with a pen knife and that usually helped.
  
 The RCAs I like are all 6080 tubes without any suffixes like WA etc and are from the late 50's/ early 60's.
  
 I will be happy to try the GEC 6080 tubes, but I am waiting for the right price - some of them go for $260/pair and up at the moment.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Not much.


 
  
 And I thought you were my friend, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  


untilthen said:


> When you remove the base and fit new gold plated ones, you're too far gone....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 And you too, M!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(mind you, you've got to admit they do look *so* much nicer for the change in clothes!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  


pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1 is an evil man who took over my mush mind and turned me into a person my mother never intended.


 
  
 Well, pct...I have after all spent over 30 years _trying_ to perfect my skills LOL!...(and sometimes...just _sometimes_...Mother does NOT know best!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...just never _admit _it, lol!).
  
 And CHEERS! to you all...have a great weekend...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(seem to be enjoying - no, _needing!_ - rather larger glasses of my favourite red wine at the moment...for some reason!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Good find mordy ))) One of the newer RCA 6080s I bought has started to crackle a lot. It is the first tube I've had go bad.
> 
> Not wanting my HD800S to join @UntilThen 's HD650 in headphone heaven quite yet, I've gone back to my GEC 6080s, which sound better anyway. I did order a pair of the 1957 RCAs out of curiousity..


 
 You need to be careful with your HD800S. Certainly only use it with tubes that are good, without pops and crackles. I have a pair of Fivre 6N7G 'Horn' that buzz occasionally. I've put that aside too. Probably will bin it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Those 1957 RCAs looks interesting. The RCAs have a nice midbass as Mordy says.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> And you too, M!!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yup I've gone too far to the dark side too and I'm back to stock tubes this morning for a bit of nostalgia. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 An old favourite by Cream who were almost as famous as the Beatles in the 2 years they were together.


----------



## DecentLevi

mordy said:


> ...Say you are showing off your system to a young teenager. After playing a very dynamic recording in it's full glory, you ask: How does it sound?
> 
> Answer: Horrible!
> 
> What can u do with kids that have been brought up on Dr. Dre Beats?


 
  
 I'd say that assertation may be reaching a bit. I've shared hi-fi rigs with a good handful of varied late teen's through 20's, who are well versed in the Beats sound, and they were all quite impressed - some agape that fidelity like that is even possible. I've even spoke with some who say their Samsung earbuds and other cheapo's sound better than those rip-off's. What a convoluted corporate world we live in these days, where the masses are brainwashed into things like mindless shallow autotuned music, headphone brands, uncomfortable ugly clothes, etc. until they actually like it. Well for me, I've always been proud to be strange. We the audiophiles are the outcasts and should be proud of it - causing ripples in the tides to spur hi-fi innovation.
  
 ...WOW, how did I just get so deep on a blown mind after a long day? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or maybe it's more like Stax can buy Beats... or at least Skullcandy


----------



## HOWIE13

These are the best sounding 'Beats' I've ever heard.
  
  

  
  
  
  
 Got them for 13 Euros from someone like this guy, on the beach in Fuengirola:
  
  
  

  
 They were so good I bought a second pair for my 26 year old daughter, who loves them.
  
 Maybe I'll seek him out next month when I'm in Spain again and ask him if he has an HD800 or T1.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







  
  
  
  
  
 .


----------



## DavidA

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Amazing - u read all the 6354 posts about "You know that you are and audiophile when"?
> 
> ...


 
 My son (in college) and his friends don't even bother with Beats or Bose, most have Sennheiser (Momentum, HD-6XX), Beyer (DT-770/880/990) or Grado headphones while I've seen a few of his friends with MDR-1A or EL8.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> pctazhp said:
> 
> 
> > Good find mordy ))) One of the newer RCA 6080s I bought has started to crackle a lot. It is the first tube I've had go bad.
> ...


 
  
 UT...what happened to your Senn HD650 ?


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> UT...what happened to your Senn HD650 ?




A defective tube killed it. I heard a pop and the right channel died.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > UT...what happened to your Senn HD650 ?
> ...


 
 Sorry to hear that....are you getting new drivers for them ?
  
 Let me guess, you had your headphones already plugged in when you turned your amp on ?


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Sorry to hear that....are you getting new drivers for them ?
> 
> Let me guess, you had your headphones already plugged in when you turned your amp on ?


 
 I was in the midst of my listening session when that happen. First a buzz, followed by a loud pop (on the right channel) several minutes later and the right channel became silent. It's the tube because with other tubes now and my T1, I have perfect stereo image. 
  
 I don't think I'll repair it. Just use my T1 and HE560 for now.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to hear that....are you getting new drivers for them ?
> ...


 
 Thanks....what tube was it, 5998 ?


----------



## UntilThen

Used RCA 6080. I'd be heart broken if it's my new 5998.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> Used RCA 6080. I'd be heart broken if it's my new 5998.


 
  
 I asked because I have many 5998 tubes, because they sound wonderful in my amp.
  
 They can all be very finicky when you first put them in and they warm up, especially if they have sit for awhile...some can ping for quite awhile...i usually wait 10 minutes before plugging my phones in when using these tubes.
  
 Glad it was not an expensive tube that you lost.
  
 The drivers for the HD650 can be purchased, i am sure they could steer you in the right direction on the HD650 thread.
 It is a great can, I have owned it on two different occasions and would not be surprised if I owned it a third time at some point, if the right deal would come along.


----------



## UntilThen

I have 3 5998 that are very stable. No noise at all. A pair (green lettering) I use in Elise while the other (white lettering) I leave it on the Darkvoice.
  
 Thanks for the tip on HD650 driver. I've put it aside for now.
  
 I'm amazed that these tubes from the 50s and 60s are still available as NOS and new.


----------



## UntilThen

It's time to give a short impression of the V-Monk plus that @geetarman49  send me.
  
 I have never given too much thought to earbuds and I was naturally sceptical before hearing these monks. However they surprised me when I first listen to it using my iPod classic. The tone is lively with a rich midrange and an engaging bass. I was even able to plug it into Elise and the fun factor is high. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 At 9 o'clock on the volume dial, it's hard to imagine you're listening through a $5 earbud. Whilst the soundstage seem compressed compared to fullsize headphones, the details are clearly present. The best earbud I've ever heard.


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> I'd say that assertation may be reaching a bit. I've shared hi-fi rigs with a good handful of varied late teen's through 20's, who are well versed in the Beats sound, and they were all quite impressed - some agape that fidelity like that is even possible. I've even spoke with some who say their Samsung earbuds and other cheapo's sound better than those rip-off's. *What a convoluted corporate world we live in these days, where the masses are brainwashed into things like mindless shallow autotuned music, headphone brands, uncomfortable ugly clothes, etc. *until they actually like it. Well for me, I've always been proud to be strange. We the audiophiles are the outcasts and should be proud of it - causing ripples in the tides to spur hi-fi innovation.
> 
> ...WOW, how did I just get so deep on a blown mind after a long day?
> 
> ...


 
 Sure. It's all the fault of the "evil" corporations. Individual choice and responsibility has nothing to do with it.


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1 I remember when we got our first black & white TV in 1953. My mother wanted to be with the rest of the family when we were glued in front of it. But she refused to watch, so she would sit with her back to the TV playing solitaire. That didn't last too long. It was The Ed Sullivan Show that finally brought her into the 20th century )))


----------



## Audict123

Sorry to intrude the regulars in this thread  I didn't post for a while but did keep an eye on the Elise thread(s) occasionally. I'd like to report on the use of Visseaux 6J5 or 6C5 in Elise. The Visseaux earned their reputation in the Project Ember thread, but (or because of that?) they are hard to find and the prices are getting silly. Particularly for the 6J5G coke bottle form (>200 dollar/pair NOS/NIB). So, I started experimenting with other forms. Turns out that the 6J5MG of 6J5MGT are 100% identical, construction wise and sound wise. They are glass tubes in metal cans that can easily be removed.  Then they look like this:

  
 Photo is taken from 'ask jan first' site - where it is claimed they still have stock of these. The site is outdated though...
  
 I really really love these. Combined with the stock russian 6H13C powers, the bass is huge. With the 6H5C (close, but not identical in properties and sound) even more so. I think it bleeds a bit into the low/mids but boy these combination are 'physical'. Mids and highs are just like I like them: detail, but not exaggerated (I'm very sensitive to that). With 5998, the bass seems shifted to deeper frequencies. Still very physical, powerfull, probably more realistic. But the highs are over the top, this combination wears me out within an hour. Chatham 6AS7G: too polite. Where has the bass slam gone? Cetron 7236 : this may be the optimum for continued listening of all genres. Great bass, mids and highs with space and energy but not fatiguing.
 One downside: I get some audible noise with all 6J5's I put in Elise via the ECC33->ECC31 adapters. Being single triodes, one set of triode connections of each tube socket is not connected. Maybe the noise creeps in there? I planned some experiments on potential remedies for that. Whatever: if you have some of these tubes, try them in the driver position and please report back! I know some of you come from Project Amber and have (or had) them. Decentlevi raved about them in Amber, but didn't like them much as drivers in Elise. As always, taste & synergy play a role. But in my view, these rate among the best. Quite similar in the excitement departmeent to FDD20 but without the hassle of external power.


----------



## HOWIE13

audict123 said:


> Sorry to intrude the regulars in this thread  I didn't post for a while but did keep an eye on the Elise thread(s) occasionally. I'd like to report on the use of Visseaux 6J5 or 6C5 in Elise. The Visseaux earned their reputation in the Project Ember thread, but (or because of that?) they are hard to find and the prices are getting silly. Particularly for the 6J5G coke bottle form (>200 dollar/pair NOS/NIB). So, I started experimenting with other forms. Turns out that the 6J5MG of 6J5MGT are 100% identical, construction wise and sound wise. They are glass tubes in metal cans that can easily be removed.  Then they look like this:
> 
> 
> Photo is taken from 'ask jan first' site - where it is claimed they still have stock of these. The site is outdated though...
> ...


 
  
 Very interesting.
 Could you post a picture of your set-up and maybe show a link to the adapter you are using?
 Are you just putting one single triode 6J5 into each driver socket using an ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter?
 I would have thought each driver socket would need two 6J5's connected by a standard dual 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter, which is what we used with Garage amps.
 I would think your 6J5 set up could be modified to hopefully remove the noise.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> Very interesting.
> Could you post a picture of your set-up and maybe show a link to the adapter you are using?
> Are you just putting one single triode 6J5 into each driver socket using an ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter?
> I would have thought each driver socket would need two 6J5's connected by a standard dual 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter, which is what we used with Garage amps.
> I would think your 6J5 set up could be modified to hopefully remove the noise.


 
  
 +1. @Audict123 please share a photo of your setup with those 6J5's in Elise. I too was under the impression you need two 6J5's per socket, being single triodes vs. the dual triode tubes that are used in all other cases. I've found the dual 6J5's however sub par as drivers, and were better as powers - though combined with 6BL7's + dual 6J5's (3 tubes per socket as drivers). I don't recall if dual 6J5's as powers are electrically compatible or not, but in any case I'm about to sell off all my 6J5's, so maybe I can try a new idea before it's too late, if anyone has input. Otherwise I had actually concluded that the stock power tubes were superior to the aforementioned 'Christmas tree' setup.


----------



## Audict123

I'll make a picture of the setup soon, but it's very simple: just put a single 6J5 in your regular ECC31->6SN7 adapter (the same one used for many tubes, including ECC31 but also 6N7G etc). Just try it (taking normal caution when testing new tubes: old  phones and/or volume down) and see if you like it.
  
 Glenn helped me to assess with certainty that the triodes WITHIN each 6SN7 are paralleled. (That was done by checking the resistance between the following 3 pairs of pinholes in a single tube socket: plate 1&2 / cathode 1&2 / grid 1&2). With one single 6J5 in (or the ancestors, 6C5 or even 6L5 - they all work!) you just get less gain. But Elise has plenty of reserve, at least with my HD650's. If the triodes within each 6SN7 would have been connected in series (which is falsely stated here and there on the Elise forum), there would be no sound at all (as the signal has to pass both to reach the next stage = the power tube).
  
 I've seen pictures of the 'christmas tree' DecentLevi mentioned with the common dual adapter 6J5+6J5 to 6SN7, but I didn't even try that dual option jet.


----------



## mordy

Hi A123,
  
 Interesting tube the 6CJ5M - would you know how it compares to the Visseux 6N7G? Is the 6N7G the dual triode version of the 6CJ5M?


----------



## DecentLevi

@Audict123, indeed interesting you were able to get a 6J5 class tube working as drivers as a single tube, even with a mis-purposed adapter, single instead of dual triodes, and a tube that uses just 0.3 vs. 0.6ah of a 6SN7. For me, I'd prefer the cautionary route - that may be producing sound in your Elise, but perhaps the distortion you're hearing is an early warning sign of a looming mishap. IMO, this sounds much riskier than my (now retired) Christmas Tree setup.
  
 Also I would say even if the internals of the 6J5MG are identical to the Visseaux 6J5's, they are not equal since they don't have the bottle-shaped glass, which does make a difference in sound.
  
 I don't have an ECC31 adapter anyway. I still have a perfect condition pair of Visseaux 6J5's, as well as Sylvania and Selectron - PM me if anyone would like them. The Visseaux are selling for $200/ pair now but I would charge 1/3rd that since I bought my pair for $75 last year.


----------



## DecentLevi

updated my above post ^


----------



## Audict123

mordy said:


> Interesting tube the 6CJ5M - would you know how it compares to the Visseux 6N7G? Is the 6N7G the dual triode version of the 6CJ5M?


 
  
 Well, yes and no. It runs at the same heater voltage and can work with the same plate, cathode and grid voltages as used in Elise, but the amplification factor is much higher. Also, the 6N7G could be used in class B with 10 watt output! The 6C5 is direct ancestor of the 6SN7 (going back in time: 6J5 / 6C5 / 6L5 / 6P5=76 (other socket) / 37 / 27). I'm actually working on testing all ancestors in Elise, and from the electrical properties it is clear that at least 6J5 6C5 and 6L5 should fit perfectly to Elise. And yes - also as singles. From 6P5 on it gets tricky as the grid bias of Elise is formally too low (the cathode current will be higher dan advised, although still just within spec for this one...) but that should be fixable by increading the cathode resistor. Didn't have the guts to try it yet - but Glenn has been really helpful in better understanding what is possible and what not.
  
 DecentLevi: I can assure you that the pin configuration of the ECC31->ECC33 adapter is exactly right (the proof is in the datasheets). It's only that the pins for the second triode remain unused.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I know this is the "one tube per socket" thread, but I'm willing to give my (_former _









) address out, should I need to 'take a beating' for the team for this one:
  
 Per Audict the apparent tube aficionado, I've just went ahead and tried quad 6J5's as powers in the Elise (using 6SN7 to dual 6J5 adapters per socket)... after some initial fear, out came a sound that was expansive, perfectly linear, coherent, vibrant, perfect FR and amazingly well refined! Then compared to the 6H13C (stock) powers, the quad 6J5's sounded much better stage, more true to life and better dynamics, as well as more than the Mullard 6080's. However they still fell quite short the legendary Western Electric 421A's, which were at least 50% better yet in terms of realism and dymanics.
  
 The quad 6J5's had a very low gain, yet 'Humphrey', no distortion even at loud levels, and clean / resolving as a whistle. Still I was a bit afraid of risk so I put back in my native-class powers. Maybe Howie or Audict would like to try this also however


----------



## 2359glenn

decentlevi said:


> Well I know this is the "one tube per socket" thread, but I'm willing to give my (_former _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Have you heard less is more?  The less stuff the better it sounds. I don't understand how this can sound better.
 I am working on getting rid of tubes and you are adding them.
 My next amp is just 2 tubes one EL3N per  channel no driver no nasty coupling capacitors.


----------



## mordy

Hi 2359glenn,
  
 Is this going to be an amp in pentode mode?


----------



## DecentLevi

Glenn I think you missed my entire post that you quoted. It began with saying how I thought I'd give that quad tube setup a try basically as inspired by Audict123, just to see how it sounds, and ends with about going for a single tube per socket setup and am getting rid of these more complex tube setups.
  
 Yes I have more tubes coming, the simple native type. Also just now I was just re-confirming my belief that bit-perfect DAC signal without Windows processing is the way to go; also in tune with "less is more"


----------



## mordy

It is so wonderful that all kinds of rare 6AS7 tubes became available suddenly - made in Holland and England.
  




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-6AS7G-VINTAGE-TUBE-HOLLAND-MATCHED-PRODUCTION-NOS-5998-6080-A1834-6336-/152291933489?hash=item23754e7d31:g:TA8AAOSw8gVX9wE6
  




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRITISH-6AS7-HALTRON-power-triode-headphone-tube-amplifier-6080-CV2984-variant-/112186173756?hash=item1a1ed1293c:g:ijkAAOSwMVdYFGnQ&rmvSB=true
  
 Psst, I know where to buy these tubes at a fraction of the price!




  
 How about $20 for the pair shipped?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6N5S-6A7G-ECC230-6N13S-Doube-Triode-Tubes-SVETLANA-BLACK-PLATE-TESTED-/182320729535?hash=item2a73298dbf:g:ndwAAOSwRgJXjUwv
  
 Alas, the Amperex and Haltron appear to be Russian fakes.....I am sure more is to come......


----------



## DecentLevi

Judging by the construction appearance, those pairs don't seem to have anything special over the stock or RCA 6AS7G power tubes anyway


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 Those tubes in the pictures should be the same as your OEM Svetlana tubes for your Elise.


----------



## HOWIE13

Thanks Mordy for that information.
  
 Haltron were well known to rebrand Russian tubes but the Amperex I'm surprised about. They are not exactly the most expensive tubes around- if the Russians think it's worth their while faking those they will doubtless be flooding the market with GEC's soon (if not already), after all they would only need an easily reproduced fake sticker to dupe many people. We learned in earlier posts that the Chinese are already producing the GEC stickers.
  
 Really puts me off even considering buying these expensive tubes now.


----------



## frederick-rea

Quoteosts like this one must be made everytime we find FAKES, or even better, open a new Treath - FAKES. All these are Russians 6H5C  Thank you *mordy*


mordy said:


> It is so wonderful that all kinds of rare 6AS7 tubes became available suddenly - made in Holland and England.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Alas, the Amperex and Haltron appear to be Russian fakes.....I am sure more is to come......




Rebrands for sure. They don't have to be illegit rebrand jobs, though. Things happened.


----------



## DecentLevi

Here's a great deal on Chatham 6080's that just came up, for anyone who's interested
  

  
 Also I'd say it's not that easy to fake a genuine tube. For anyone who's exclusively familiar with the construction of a specific tube type, we can tell right away if it's a fake - most importantly by the internal construction. With all the rebrands that have happened decades ago, sometimes brand names / labels or lack thereof are meaningless.
  
 So if anyone happens to come across the likes of a good GEC-_like _tube, feel free to contact Hypnos1 or even myself to confirm if it's genuine, or post the photo here. But for me, I've already got some great pairs on the way.


----------



## DecentLevi

point & case


----------



## mordy

As usual: Buyer beware! But sometimes even experts can be fooled.......
  
 Having followed eBay for a number of years now, it is interesting to me that these tubes popped up now......


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys....*A NEW AMP WILL SOON BE IN MY HANDS - *still an Elise...but *DIFFERENT!*
  
 Explanation and details over at my second thread : http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/13170#post_12974788
  
 CHEERS!...(need to go have a stiff drink now...either that or my _Horlicks_...yes, LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).


----------



## mordy

Here are more tubes to add to your collection of 6AS7G - "._possibly by Mullard or Genalex_"
  




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-6AS7G-5998-421A-TUBES-ENGLAND-TEST-NOS-/152293701262?hash=item237569768e:g:ecYAAOSwV0RXv0nM
  
*Beware! These are just rebranded Svetlana 6AS7 equivalents made in Russia.*


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Here are more tubes to add to your collection of 6AS7G - "._possibly by Mullard or Genalex_"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo mordy...and to actually have "Made in England" stamped on the bases of some of these tubes is DOUBLY misleading (and I'm trying very hard to be generous with my words here lol!!)...made in England they were most certainly *NOT!!!*...
  
 And so as I have mentioned previously, _*close*_ study of these Russian tubes compared to the genuine article posted here and elsewhere many times will soon enable one to spot any such "misleading" listings quite easily, regardless of the label!...plus - if extremely lucky! - spot a mis-labelled genuine GEC/Osram..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(if I don't get there first!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## attmci

decentlevi said:


> Those bottle shaped GEC tubes on eBay_ (which all ended 16 hours ago)_ were findable by searching simply for "6AS7G" on eBay; the listings did not actually include the word GEC, though the seller told me they were made in the same factory as the GEC's, thereby MWT is either a sort of factory code or a rebranded version of those rare GEC's - the only difference being the curved bottom. I was one of the lucky winning bids of the 4 listings - smoothly won the bid right on my way to work at Tesla, and it even happened to be my first time ever winning a bid on eBay.
> 
> Per advice from CJ, you just basically wait until the last 10-20 seconds and bid a great margin higher than the others; the max. you're comfortable paying and if you're lucky your bid will fall just slightly over a bid that was much lower than your max. bid entered. CJ (H1) may be able to explain this better than me. Another tip for scouting out rare tubes is searching on hifishark.com then clicking the link at bottom to receive email notifications of your query, when your item becomes available. It's like a used Hi-fi audio search engine that indexes not only eBay, but several other good sources such as Canuck Audio Mart and good 'ol Head-Fi for sale / trade forums.
> 
> ...


 

 I got the others. Sorry to learn that you had to go to work so early.......4am in the morning.
  
 BTW,  There are a number of GEC 6as7g NIB available on eBay.  Grab all if you need some.


----------



## DecentLevi

I've decided to follow you guys' advice and get four socket savers. But I couldn't seem to find much good ones on eBay for 6AS7 class anyway. Which socket savers are good? And would 6SN7 type work for all four slots?
  
 Interestingly during my search, I ran across something called Novib anti-vibration socket savers, which somehow use silicone to reduce microphonics, with these other reported *positive* side effects 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




:
  
 "

_Reviewer: Mark Haynes from Telford, Shropshire United Kingdom_ 
 I bought these for my Yaqin MC100B which uses 2 X 12ax7s in the input.  Here I use late 50s Brimar 12ax7 long plates which are supposed to be non microphonic.  Thinking that they would help protect my Noval sockets (the other sockets are octal and easier to 'retension') I bought these. However I wasn't expecting such a massive improvement in SQ.  I use Golden Dragon tube dampers but this made a bigger improvement to the SQ than them!  Depth, clarity across all frequency ranges were improved and everything seemed more 3 dimensional.  Buy these NOT just to protect your sockets but to IMPROVE YOUR SQ!!!" (quoted from here)
  

  
 Here is the link for their 6SN7 version:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/OCTAL-SOCKET-SAVER-NOVIB-NOS-GE-USA-OMRON-JAPAN-Vib-Red-Base-NOT-Made-in-China-/161892604162
  
 However these are several times more expensive than regular socket savers, so still considering...


----------



## whirlwind

I have those socket savers....the same ones are used for both 6AS7 & 6SN7 sockets, they have the same pin out.
  
 They great socket savers, but don't hold your breath about getting better sound quality


----------



## connieflyer

I have used this brand before, and they did hold up well. I never saw any increase in SQ with these or any other socket saver.  By putting another component  in the circuit it would seem to me to have a negative effect if any at all. You always have to take with a grain of salt claims of immense improvement, fantastic sound, huge soundstage, resolution beyond belief, these claims are all hyperbole.  Funny listening to folks here and other forums describe there latest and greatest find.  If you were to find these kind of improvements with each tube roll, that the new ones are so fantastic nothing else compares, you would never go back to the other tubes, there would be no point .   It is the same people that always find these fantastic improvements and they never can see that they just got through recomending other combos. THey never learn, probably just want to feel important to the discussion.  Find something better, apsolutely, can you discern a better resolution, sure, huge, tremendous discoverys are mostly personal ways to say, yeah, I spent the extra money and of course I can hear diffrencses of 200-400% improvement, because otherwise why did I spend so much on them?  Mostly in their own minds and need to hear it so they can feel good about spending the extra money.  I am sure the gec's sound better than the ts 5998's and 6080's but 2-300 % better, I just don't see it.


----------



## Spork67

I ordered these - $17.50 US for a set of 4.
 Because I'm stingy, and I don't believe a socket saver can make anything sound better than it already does.
 I do believe they can save mechanical wear and tear on sockets, so as long as they don't make the sound worse I'm happy.


----------



## connieflyer

Agreed, that was what these were designed for, mechanical advantage not sonic advantage,


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I have used this brand before, and they did hold up well. I never saw any increase in SQ with these or any other socket saver.  By putting another component  in the circuit it would seem to me to have a negative effect if any at all. You always have to take with a grain of salt claims of immense improvement, fantastic sound, huge soundstage, resolution beyond belief, these claims are all hyperbole.  Funny listening to folks here and other forums describe there latest and greatest find.  If you were to find these kind of improvements with each tube roll, that the new ones are so fantastic nothing else compares, you would never go back to the other tubes, there would be no point .   It is the same people that always find these fantastic improvements and they never can see that they just got through recomending other combos. THey never learn, probably just want to feel important to the discussion.  Find something better, apsolutely, can you discern a better resolution, sure, huge, tremendous discoverys are mostly personal ways to say, yeah, I spent the extra money and of course I can hear diffrencses of 200-400% improvement, because otherwise why did I spend so much on them?  Mostly in their own minds and need to hear it so they can feel good about spending the extra money.  I am sure the gec's sound better than the ts 5998's and 6080's but 2-300 % better, I just don't see it.


 
 Totally agree.
  
 All this hyperbole really puts me off actually, which is a shame as there may occasionally be some truth in what they are saying. Quite honestly, sometimes the comment tells you far more about the person than the product.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I have used this brand before, and they did hold up well. I never saw any increase in SQ with these or any other socket saver.  By putting another component  in the circuit it would seem to me to have a negative effect if any at all. You always have to take with a grain of salt claims of immense improvement, fantastic sound, huge soundstage, resolution beyond belief, these claims are all hyperbole.  Funny listening to folks here and other forums describe there latest and greatest find.  If you were to find these kind of improvements with each tube roll, that the new ones are so fantastic nothing else compares, you would never go back to the other tubes, there would be no point .   It is the same people that always find these fantastic improvements and they never can see that they just got through recomending other combos. THey never learn, probably just want to feel important to the discussion.  Find something better, apsolutely, can you discern a better resolution, sure, huge, tremendous discoverys are mostly personal ways to say, yeah, I spent the extra money and of course I can hear diffrencses of 200-400% improvement, because otherwise why did I spend so much on them?  Mostly in their own minds and need to hear it so they can feel good about spending the extra money.  I am sure the gec's sound better than the ts 5998's and 6080's but 2-300 % better, I just don't see it.


 
 CF:  I very much agree with you about the hyperbole and the motivation that seems to generate much of the crazy language. I think it hurts the overall credibility of this thread and may turn off people who are considering the Elise. It is also why I don't spend much time here anymore. For me it is like fingernails scratching across a blackboard.
  
 I used to be a total cable nut. But for a long time now I have been very skeptical about wire and cables. Claims of "night and day" just drive me crazy.
  
 I am keeping an open mind about the upgraded Elise. I think FA is conservative and competent. I don't think they would include upgrades that didn't accomplish anything other than just cost more. However, I'm so happy with my Elise I'm not sure if I would spend a lot of money for a new upgraded model. Time will tell))
  
 As for the GEC 6AS7G, I don't have any problem with anyone who wants to spend money for what they think will be an improvement. I doubt I will ever actually hear one because right now I just don't feel the need to spend a lot of money to try to improve on my system, which I absolutely love. But I learned a long time ago: never say never)))))


----------



## connieflyer

It is starting to get a little old listening to thus hyberbole,. and I am also getting a little tired of this in the thread. It puts people off that may be interested in the Elise, but see all these claims of vastly superior claims by people that don't have the knowledge about the subject or electronics in general and think, they may have to constantly upgrade tube after tube, just to try to keep up.  I have alot of tubes and I can honestly say,  I could be happy with any of the combos.   Some I like more than others, but none leave me with a feeling that I should take them out back and use a shotgun on them because they are so poor.  Elise is a fine amp, delivers a great experience and well worth the investment.  I eagerly await H's opinion of the new additions to the Elise, and will then do some soul searching to decide if the increase in cost would be worth it compared to what I have.  I am certain it will be better, but cost benefit is the name of the game, unless you are well healed or supported by other funding.


----------



## richdytch

My hifi-making dad gave me a lifelong wariness of confirmation bias. My childhood was a succession of blind AB tests and afternoons spent describing the relative loudness of 3rd and 5th octave pink noise tracks. Confirmation bias still tricks me. But I try to not jump to conclusions about any piece of kit or tubes, etc, until I've lived with it for a while. That first switch on is always AMAZING. I think the best thing people can do to avoid hyperbole is just to chill out. Slow down a bit. And get your friends to help you to make your listening tests genuinely blind. It can be a pretty depressing or enlightening experience, depending of which way you are prone to take it.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> (need to go have a stiff drink now...either that or my _Horlicks_...yes, LOL!! :wink_face:  ).




Why does that sound a bit ... dirty?


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> It is starting to get a little old listening to thus hyberbole,. and I am also getting a little tired of this in the thread. It puts people off that may be interested in the Elise, but see all these claims of vastly superior claims by people that don't have the knowledge about the subject or electronics in general and think, they may have to constantly upgrade tube after tube, just to try to keep up.  I have alot of tubes and I can honestly say,  I could be happy with any of the combos.   Some I like more than others, but none leave me with a feeling that I should take them out back and use a shotgun on them because they are so poor.  Elise is a fine amp, delivers a great experience and well worth the investment.  I eagerly await H's opinion of the new additions to the Elise, and will then do some soul searching to decide if the increase in cost would be worth it compared to what I have.  I am certain it will be better, but cost benefit is the name of the game, unless you are well healed or supported by other funding.


 
  
 Fully agree, cf (and @pctazhp)...we need a return to measured, careful, restrained, unexaggerated, _*realistic*_ assessments lol! Only then can they be taken more seriously by most folks.
  
 Fortunately, if those interested parties really want to gain a better picture of what Elise can deliver, there is a wealth of useful info going back a long way - both here and over at the other 2 threads I myself started. I know this involves wading through a good deal of "other" material, but hey, good things are worth taking that extra bit of trouble, no?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...I, and others, have spent a _*great*_ deal of time, effort and money these past 2 years in shedding light on what this amp is capable of delivering - I don't think it is asking _too_ much to sift through it (at leisure!) and thereby gain a clearer, more balanced view of what's on offer...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And yes indeed...cost/benefit is going to be mighty tricky re. my new amp - but this is always the case, of course, once you reach a certain level of performance in a product, and at the end of the day can only really come down to one's own particular desires as to just _how_ much further one wishes to go in the pursuit of "better"... given one's finances of course!!
  
 I am both excited and apprehensive about assessing the amp - naturally, I _want_ it to be "super-duper", both for myself and F-A, and it will be hard indeed to remain 100% objective...but I shall try my hardest to be so...(especially with reference to richdytch's post below!). Of course any improvement isn't going  to be "mind-blowingly, unbelievably, way beyond the stratosphere" in magnitude, but I respect the F-A guys' experience in being able to judge fairly accurately their own products, and have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve their positive findings.
  
 ETA for my amp is Friday, so will have the weekend to do further burn-in before I even bother to do any serious listening...so I (and you!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) will have to be patient lol!...CHEERS!...
  


richdytch said:


> My hifi-making dad gave me a lifelong wariness of confirmation bias. My childhood was a succession of blind AB tests and afternoons spent describing the relative loudness of 3rd and 5th octave pink noise tracks. Confirmation bias still tricks me. But I try to not jump to conclusions about any piece of kit or tubes, etc, until I've lived with it for a while. That first switch on is always AMAZING. I think the best thing people can do to avoid hyperbole is just to chill out. Slow down a bit. And get your friends to help you to make your listening tests genuinely blind. It can be a pretty depressing or enlightening experience, depending of which way you are prone to take it.


 
  
 Ah yes, rd..."confirmation bias"...not to mention "autosuggestion", and "expectation bias" - I do have a fairly good understanding of these principles given my profession lol! It can indeed be VERY difficult not to be fooled...even when trying hard to avoid them!
  
 You are spot on when you say "slow down a bit"...one does indeed need to spend a _long_ time in the assessment process, if anything like a true and fair view is to be gained. And even then, things can change yet again after an even _*longer*_ period of time has elapsed!


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Why does that sound a bit ... dirty?


 
  
 Must you insist on trying to corrupt a poor, sweet innocent like myself lol?..._ shame on you!!!_  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(I'll never be able to see my night-time drink in the same way again!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Must you insist on trying to corrupt a poor, sweetinnocent like myself lol?...




Yes, I'm afraid I must.


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> Yes, I'm afraid I must.


 

 Saint Pctazhp will happily absolve both of you from sin if you want


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Yes, I'm afraid I must.


 
  
 OK, O...double-dose bedtime drink here I come!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Saint Pctazhp will happily absolve both of you from sin if you want


 
  
 Kill-joy!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## connieflyer

Well, having lasted  72 years and counting, I see nothing wrong with a drink before bed, or after, or when ever the "need" arrases !  I envy you, your new journey with the improved Elise, but I can see the trepidation as well, to try to put aside any preconceived ideas or notions. Not going to be easy, but then, if it was too easy, it would not be too rewarding either. I will hoist one tonight for you and wish you fair skies and smooth seas.  Now that goes back away'does it not?


----------



## mordy

Here is a question:
  
 Did you ever notice that a new tube you are trying out seems to run hotter in the beginning compared to after having used it for a while? (The tube feels hotter to the touch, or the the amp itself seems hotter.)
  
 Today I confirmed this with a new batch of RCA 6080 tubes. I have a Nubee infrared thermometer (around $13 from Amazon). After 20 min the temperature was 129C, but after two hours 111C.
  
 The reason I am asking is if this temperature difference would be an indication if the tube is new, or used and burned in.
  
 My general impression is that tubes that are burned in run cooler compared to when new. On the other hand, burn in takes much longer than a couple of hours - usually 30-50 hours and some even much longer. My well used EL3N tubes, which always were cool running, only measure 32C when warmed up.
  
 Does anybody have any thoughts on this?


----------



## Spork67

mordy said:


> Here is a question:
> 
> Did you ever notice that a new tube you are trying out seems to run hotter in the beginning compared to after having used it for a while? (The tube feels hotter to the touch, or the the amp itself seems hotter.)
> 
> ...


 
 I haven't measured the temperature - but my 6-pack (NOS) is definately cooler running now than it was initially. 
 I remembered people saying they ran cool and wondered what the heck they'd been smoking (drinking?) when I first got mine.


----------



## DavidA

I did a similar check of temperature between new (never used) 6922 Gold Lion versus one with 1000+ hours, both are the same temp in my Lyr2.  Cold start: 26.7C, 1 hour: 73.2C, 2 hour: 73.6, 24 hours: 73.2C.  Seems like the temp was affected more by the ambient temp.
  
 Easy way to confirm if your 6080's are cooler after being in use is use one which has been used for awhile and a brand new one at the same time and see if there is a temp difference.
  
 I'm using a Raytek Raynger "ST"


----------



## Spork67

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-sennheiser-hd6xx?referer=HPPRXD
  
 I may have to try a set of Senns at this price.


----------



## connieflyer

I have the HD 650 twice. It is a great headphone. Also had the 700 and now moved up to the 800 and at this price I may just have to buy my third 650 they say once you have a 650 you just keep rebuying the stupid things should have kept at least one pair.


----------



## Audict123

The Massdrop offering is really attractive but came right after I bought a second set of HD650. I remember when my first HD650's arrived some 10 years ago. Thick, slow sound. Guess what: the new pair again is thick and slow... Having the well burned in pair, a direct comparison can be made and the difference is huge. Way bigger than eg between stock Elise tubes and my personal favorite tubes. After some 100 hours of burn-in, the highs have really opened up but the lows are still thick and slow. I'm confident more playing time will cure that too. Summarizing: if you buy HD650, give them time before you judge them. Burned in and powered by a fitting amp like Elise, HD650's are just incredible. I liked them more than baby Orpheus, which didn't get 10% of the playing time when I owned both at the same time.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for reminding me of why I sold off both pairs, the first pair I had for over five years and the bass never did improve much. Tried the newer pair and after a few hundred hours gave up moved to the 700, which was much better, but now with the 800 I think I will leave things alone.  I had the T1 V1 and really like those as well until the left driver gave out and amazon could not replace them ad the dealer they got them through did not offer exchanges, so amazon refunded the money and I bought the 800. If I could be sure on the drivers, I would get another T1 v1.  With the Elise the sound is excellent with the T1 and 800. So thank you for reminding meabout the long burnin and slow bass.  Will pass on these now, I owe you one.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi all, just a quick note - yeah the special socket savers I mentioned a few pages back are not likely to make an improvement in SQ - the seller even told me so, it's just that maybe one customer had some fluke experience (or placebo effect) to why his sounded better with those, and the only thing that sets those apart from standard socket savers is silicone rubber in in the adapter, which wouldn't seem to do much. In anticipation for my major bag of tube goodies incoming and to spare my Elise from too much wear & tear, I'll be getting just the standard black socket savers... seems perhaps the tubes would wiggle in/out more easily from a cheap one rather than the fancy socket savers like the one shown in H1's new upgraded Elise which would appear to make a very tight fit.


----------



## Spork67

connieflyer said:


> Thanks for reminding me of why I sold off both pairs, the first pair I had for over five years and the bass never did improve much. Tried the newer pair and after a few hundred hours gave up moved to the 700, which was much better, but now with the 800 I think I will leave things alone.  I had the T1 V1 and really like those as well until the left driver gave out and amazon could not replace them ad the dealer they got them through did not offer exchanges, so amazon refunded the money and I bought the 800. If I could be sure on the drivers, I would get another T1 v1.  With the Elise the sound is excellent with the T1 and 800. So thank you for reminding meabout the long burnin and slow bass.  Will pass on these now, I owe you one.


 
 This might save me some $ also.
 As someone who's had both HPs, is there _any _advantage to the HD650 over T1G1?
 If the T1 is better in every way then I can't justify another mid-fi purchase, regardless of how good a deal it might be.
  
 (Would get a pair for one of the kids for xmas - but just recently gave she-child some ATH-AD900x, and minime mk1 has some HE-350's on their way already.)
  
 Edit.
 Although these might not be better, or as good, as my T1s, I'm convinced they will be WAAAAY better than the HE-350s.
 If I can get in on the drop I will, and sell the HE-350s.


----------



## HOWIE13

Just some thoughts about these current topics.
  
 I've never fallen in love with the HD650. It's useful for equipment comparisons because lots of people know it's sound signature but I've always found it lacks bite and dynamics.
 I also find the sound stage claustrophobic, like listening through a letter box- not much height or depth to the sound. It definitely sounds better with better amps, like Elise, when the treble becomes more pronounced  but then it sounds to me odd, when the treble is clarified but the bass is somewhat inarticulate in comparison. I find it doesn't compare to my AKG 702/712, both of which open a window to the sound compared to the HD650. I do, however, like the HD600. I appreciate it will depend on your musical taste- HD650 will suit laid back, relaxing music and an overly bright system.
  
 As to socket savers, unless needed to raise certain tubes above the amp casing, as with my Vali2, I tend not to use them.
  
 I don't see the point of spending hundreds of pounds on an amp, then another load of money on expensive tubes to have what is essentially a mass produced, non audiophile grade product at the end of the circuit. If the socket breaks I'll pay for a repair or consider whether I can use it as an excuse to treat myself to a new amp.
 The only place I have a socket saver is in my tube tester.
  
 As for hyperbolic, rave reviews, I suspect quite a few are written for marketing purposes.


----------



## Spork67

Good information there @HOWIE13
 Your impressions of the '650s makes me think yet again...
 My boy will use his HPs for music AND gaming, and I'd imagine positioning and sound stage will be more important to him that musicality or fidelity.
 I'd imagined the '650s would do this well, given the HD-800's reputation for being about the best there is for these.
 Is there another HP in the $200 price barcket that would be better for both gaming and music (he likes heavy metal)?
  
 nb. He has my old Yulong u100 amp, it's on the warm / dark side, so maybe it will pair better with the HE-350's...
  
  
 Your reasoning re: "If I break a socket - buy a new amp" has merit...


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Good information there @HOWIE13
> Your impressions of the '650s makes me think yet again...
> My boy will use his HPs for music AND gaming, and I'd imagine positioning and sound stage will be more important to him that musicality or fidelity.
> I'd imagined the '650s would do this well, given the HD-800's reputation for being about the best there is for these.
> ...


 
  
 I'm not really into gaming or heavy metal but the AKG K702 is, I think, fantastic value for sound-stage, clarity and excitement and I would imagine it might suit. The K712 has a more refined treble and even bigger sound stage, but is more expensive. I would think about the HD600, though it's also a bit above $200,, it's cleaner in the upper mids and provides for me better imaging than the HD650, and has a clearer and more dynamic bass. It's only the way I hear it though.
 It's really hard to advise firmly though-maybe others can chip in here to help.


----------



## HOWIE13

@Spork67    _ 'Your reasoning re: "If I break a socket - buy a new amp" has merit.'._
  
 Here's how it works in our house:
  
  
 Me ( sobbing to wife):   I've had no sleep all night worrying about my music.
 Wife;(unconcerned)      Why, what's up now?
 Me (plaintively)            My amplifier's broke and I only hear sound from one channel
 Wife;                          What's a channel?
 Me;                            Half the sound.
 Wife;                          So? Does it matter-just put up the volume.
 Me:                            No it's more than that, anyway all the money I've spent on tubes and headphones is now wasted unless I buy a new amp.
 Wifewith venom)       Get it repaired then
 Me                             Well technology has advanced so much in the last year it's not worth repairing and it will cost a fortune to send it to Poland anyway.
 Wife::                         Oh alright- anything to get you out of my way, I can't bear the thought of you spending all day eating and making a mess, better you have your                                        music to listen to.
 Meto myself)             YAY!!!!!


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Just some thoughts about these current topics.
> 
> I've never fallen in love with the HD650. It's useful for equipment comparisons because lots of people know it's sound signature but I've always found it lacks bite and dynamics.
> I also find the sound stage claustrophobic, like listening through a letter box- not much height or depth to the sound. It definitely sounds better with better amps, like Elise, when the treble becomes more pronounced  but then it sounds to me odd, when the treble is clarified but the bass is somewhat inarticulate in comparison. I find it doesn't compare to my AKG 702/712, both of which open a window to the sound compared to the HD650. I do, however, like the HD600. I appreciate it will depend on your musical taste-* HD650 will suit laid back, relaxing music* *and an overly bright system.*
> ...


 
  
 Wholeheartedly agree H13...never fully grasped this until I got the T1s lol!!...no comparison! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Re. socket savers, your point is precisely why I never fancied using them, despite my amp's sockets being "awkward" LOL!!  As I mentioned previously, by taking certain precautions with Elise's ones, hopefully there shouldn't be too much of a problem with 'excessive' rolling (which the F-A guys didn't fully anticipate! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Actually, if those - as DL said - "looser" pin receptors do indeed get pushed about too much, _*careful*_ prising with either *very* small precision pliers or watch-repair screwdrivers can in fact get them back into better/tighter position.
  
 The top quality sockets in my new amp will indeed probably be a tighter fit, and so shall still have to ensure all tube pins are straight as can be, and as smooth/clean as possible...which is no real problem for me anyway, as my best tubes are either adapted using gold-plated pin bases, or I gold-plate the pins of tubes' native bases...such as the GEC powers lol (easier though of course is to clean and smooth the pins with fine emery paper, then treat with Deoxit).
  
 And yeah...let's hope excessively hyperbolic, rave statements are left behind us once and for all!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(but please allow me a certain leeway when my new amp caresses my ears! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...which should be in just a few hours now!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Wholeheartedly agree H13...never fully grasped this until I got the T1s lol!!...no comparison!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 OMG a few hours-I'm surprised you are still at your computer and not pacing up and down outside waiting for the brown UPS van 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now remember, if there's any doubt in your mind which version sounds better, A/B comparisons are best and I could easily come to 'The Swan' with my original, socket perfect (as of now) amp to help you make comparisons. LOL


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> OMG a few hours-I'm surprised you are still at your computer and not pacing up and down outside waiting for the brown UPS van
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi H13....did I say a few hours?...should have said *minutes, lol!*....*THE NEW AMP IS HERE, FOLKS!!...*and I'm drooling already (once again! 





), just looking at it :
  
 A few shots for starters...more later...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  

  

  

  
 Hands still shaking...hope I don't drop her!!
  
 ps. Looks like the front plate is slightly less matte than my original, presumably in response to remarks re. dust attraction...(but I believe this may have been the case for a while?...).
  
 BFN guys...need my dose of Caffeine to (try!) and settle my nerves LOL...CHEERS!...


----------



## connieflyer

Put another pot of coffee on start the show! So happy to hear she has arrived, must have been a sleepless night.  Well, will be waiting patiently (not) for your initial reactions.  Go forth and listen H!


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
 Steady your hands before you insert the tubes, otherwise another socket may break, LOL 
  
 Good luck!


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks @connieflyer and @HOWIE13...new girl next to the old gal for starters - tears in my eyes already! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but also filled with joy for what (hopefully!) is in store...(afraid any sensible report wiill have to wait a wee while...sorry cf! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but not sure just how patient _*I*_ can be either, mon ami!!).
  
 And a trip to Lavenham sure does sound exciting, H13!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...despite 'Witchfinder General' vibes lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Now for that *extra** strong* coffee!...BFN (once again!!)...
  

  
 Oh dear..."scratching of eyes out" do I sense - behave girls!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks @connieflyer and @HOWIE13...new girl next to the old gal for starters - tears in my eyes already!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not strong coffee H1-the caffeine will increase your shakes-better a soothing Horlicks, or hot chocolate, with a small whisky-then to work. YIPPEE!!!


----------



## connieflyer

I did not think that there would be such a physical difference in size and detail.  I wonder if they changed the size at some point in the production run.  I remember my amp number 50 was delayed because of "supply problems" with the chassis.  Wonder if they changed it back then.  If not this seems to be a new product. Might be worth the big the big increase in price to have an amp that is so much smaller, I could save money by moving into a small apartment and selling the house since the amp is so much more compact!


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Not strong coffee H1-the caffeine will increase your shakes-better a soothing Horlicks, or hot chocolate, with a small whisky-then to work. YIPPEE!!!


 
  
 Well, H13...one large cup already, and..._*no more shakes!*_...luckily, this drug doesn't do nasty things to me - that I know of..._yet!!_
  
 Whereas a dram or two might just have me seeing FOUR gals on the block...then I _*would*_ be falling on my sword lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


connieflyer said:


> I did not think that there would be such a physical difference in size and detail.  I wonder if they changed the size at some point in the production run.  I remember my amp number 50 was delayed because of "supply problems" with the chassis.  Wonder if they changed it back then.  If not this seems to be a new product. Might be worth the big the big increase in price to have an amp that is so much smaller, I could save money by moving into a small apartment and selling the house since the amp is so much more compact!


 
  
 Actually cf, new gal is in fact the bigger of the two (on the left), but mostly down to optical illusion, being in the foreground. Surprisingly, the only real difference in dimension is the transformer housing - a good centimetre taller...probably all the better for more air around the trafo!
  
 And the overall height only greater due to the larger (very impressive looking!) aluminium feet....plus the trafo, of course! But I must admit I did have to double check the measurements...the new one does, for some strange reason, look a fair bit bigger! (Mind you, the recessed sockets of my original also add to the illusion lol...).
  
 Anyway, back to my second cup...and hopefully still no more shakes!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...then I can plug her in, fire her up and...???? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for correcting my assumption.  Picture does look somewhat bigger but all considered I stand corrected,(well sitting corrected, just got back from shopping, if it wasn't for the hunger I would not go!).


----------



## mordy

Hey h1,
  
 What happened? I can't hear anything??!!!
  
 BTW - there is no way you could have listened to 6080 tubes with the old prototype without socket savers since the sockets are recessed and there isn't enough room for the tube bases of those tubes.
  
 Also, please ask Lukasz to add a little white dot on the volume control.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hey h1,
> 
> What happened? I can't hear anything??!!!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo mordy...never did manage to get to use 6080s because of the recess...but wasn't bothered, given my GEC/Osrams lol!!
  
 And now for the new arrival....
  
 At the moment I can only give a brief first impression... after only a few hours, and with any further testing postponed while I sort a potential issue with Lukasz.
  
 Taking into account "early days" and excited anticipation, it is already quite apparent that the mods have indeed brought a very tangible improvement in sound delivery...in fact beyond what I was actually expecting. My main reason for surprise is that I was testing with the original, cheap 6H8C drivers, stock Russian powers and HD650s...and so I wasn't really expecting _too_ much until my best tubes and T1s were in place...boy, was I *wrong!!*  Even with this extremely modest set-up I was taken aback by what I was hearing..._everything_ was  more than just one notch up the scale - I never thought the 650s could sound so good...and had certainly dismissed them very quickly in my old amp once the T1s came along. And so in a way, I'm glad I didn't start with my "best", as bias might just have tried to influence my judgment LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Sadly, I haven't yet been able to see just what happens when star performers are plugged in...that will have to wait a while I'm afraid. But at least I can see the enormous _potential_ for some very interesting results further down the road...if anything, I would say the F-A guys have been extremely conservative in their praise for the results of their upgrades.
  
 Will keep y'all informed as to progress in the next few days...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Yo mordy...never did manage to get to use 6080s because of the recess...but wasn't bothered, given my GEC/Osrams lol!!
> 
> And now for the new arrival....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the update, H1. Sounds very promising, particularly as it improves the HD650 so much.
  
 Here's hoping the potential issue can quickly be resolved and you can continue your assessment without undue delay.


----------



## lukeap69

hypnos1 said:


> I never thought the 650s could sound so good...and had certainly dismissed them very quickly in my old amp once the T1s came along. And so in a way, I'm glad I didn't start with my "best", as bias might just have tried


 
  
 Nice to hear the improvements brought about by the new parts h1. Elise is evolving!
  
 Regarding HD-650 - I have dismissed it also when I first heard it. After few months when a friend brought one at home to pair with my Glenn OTL Darna - the next day I have ordered one! The 650 scales well. And this is not a hyperbole.


----------



## hypnos1

lukeap69 said:


> Nice to hear the improvements brought about by the new parts h1. Elise is evolving!
> 
> Regarding HD-650 - I have dismissed it also when I first heard it. After few months when a friend brought one at home to pair with my Glenn OTL Darna - the next day I have ordered one! The 650 scales well. And this is not a hyperbole.


 
  
 Thanks 'Arnold'...have high hopes for its future...
  
 Certainly NOT hyperbole re the 650s...but still wouldn't swap for my T1s LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## whirlwind

lukeap69 said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > I never thought the 650s could sound so good...and had certainly dismissed them very quickly in my old amp once the T1s came along. And so in a way, I'm glad I didn't start with my "best", as bias might just have tried
> ...


 
  
 I have owned the HD650 twice Arnold.
  
 Great headphone.....Massdrop has one for $199 right now...great deal for anyone looking for one.
  
 At some point I probably will own the HD650 for the third time


----------



## DecentLevi

The box of all boxes came in today...​  ​ ​  ​ ​  ​ ​  
 My Elise will forever love me - and so will my ears!!! I got a cold chill even beholding such valuable artifacts. Now all I need is will power to try them out... somebody please help me! I'm weak! Very peculiar facet of the hobby, sometimes you can only marvel at the sight of your gear...


----------



## 2359glenn

decentlevi said:


> The box of all boxes came in today...​  ​ ​  ​ ​  ​ ​
> My Elise will forever love me - and so will my ears!!! I got a cold chill even beholding such valuable artifacts. Now all I need is will power to try them out... somebody please help me! I'm weak! Very peculiar facet of the hobby, sometimes you can only marvel at the sight of your gear...


 

 Congrats great tubes.


----------



## Spork67

Some great tubes there DL.
 I'd have trouble deciding where to begin...
 Enjoy!


----------



## whirlwind

decentlevi said:


> The box of all boxes came in today...​  ​ ​  ​ ​  ​ ​
> My Elise will forever love me - and so will my ears!!! I got a cold chill even beholding such valuable artifacts. Now all I need is will power to try them out... somebody please help me! I'm weak! Very peculiar facet of the hobby, sometimes you can only marvel at the sight of your gear...


 
 Congrats and enjoy....the tone of these are off the hook


----------



## DecentLevi

Making no exception to my style as an unorthodox-listener (ironically so, and not purposed as such)...
 These are my initial first-time rankings of my new batch of top 6AS7 class tubes, in order of best to worst:
  

Tung-Sol 7236 matched pair
GEC 6AS7G  matched pair
Bendix 6080 matched pair
Tung-Sol 5998 matched pair
Chatham 2399 matched pair, green letters
GEC 6080 pair
  
 As mentioned these are only initial impressions (and yes this was based off hearing not just ba appearance LOL), and considering things like presentation, coherence, organic timber and bass definition. My take home for day 1 is that the Tung Sol 7236 really have some immaculate synergy with the Elise, while the (curved base) GEC 6AS7G are delightfully colored yet laid back, TS 5998 / Chatham 2399 and Western Electric 421A are all quite similar in both construction and have share a bright dynamic-monster sound. The GEC 6080 (straight form version) are a close 6th place, yet falling on the bright side of neutrality. Those mint condition Bendix (this one being real - more on that to come) are fantastic and those, as well as all of these need more analysis / burn in.
  
 Tung Sol 7236 (actual photo of my unlikely sleeping beauty of a winner)

  
 and PS - this was all done with EL3N as drivers, so a driver change could shake things up yet


----------



## 2359glenn

decentlevi said:


> Making no exception to my style as an unorthodox-listener (ironically so, and not purposed as such)...
> These are my initial first-time rankings of my new batch of top 6AS7 class tubes, in order of best to worst:
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You bought these tubes from my best friend.
 Stavros has the best collection of tubes I ever seen.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 Thank you so much for those comparisons-that's really helpful.
  
 Which headphones were you using?


----------



## Quinto

I'm about to order an Elise with stock tubes.can anyone tell if the tube update on Feliks'website (PsVane) is worth the 130$ or so extra?
  
 I'll use it for my HD650 & my beloved K501 (sold my V200) and I listen to classical and Jazz exclusively.. thanks!


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 Congrats on this jackpot of tubes!
  
 After spending all that money, why don't you spend another $20 or so and get a pair of 1950-60's RCA 6080? I have the 7236 and IMHO the RCAs sound better to me in my system using the EL3N as drivers. (Before I tried the RCA 6080, my favorite was the 7236.)
  
 As always, YMMV.


----------



## DecentLevi

On a different topic while I still work on some tube comparisons, I've noticed our Elise 6SN7 class drivers are even far more flexible than we may have realised! Here's a tube compatibility chart for 6SN7 including it's little brethren of the ECC88 / 6DJ8 / 12AU7 type (the smaller all work with the same 6SN7 to ^^ adapter. Basically 12AX7, 12AV7, 12AZ7 etc. are mostly just different from the gain factor, the higher the letter preceding the 7 indicates louder gain, if I understand correctly
  

  
 I've been finding that the smaller driver tubes on Elise can give an extra dimension of vividness, immediacy and clarity that I have never heard from any 6SN7 class tube yet
  
*EDIT*: the above chart refers mostly to 12v tubes, but the Elise uses 6v


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> On a different topic while I still work on some tube comparisons, I've noticed our Elise 6SN7 class drivers are even far more flexible than we may have realised! Here's a tube compatibility chart for 6SN7 including it's little brethren of the ECC88 / 6DJ8 / 12AU7 type (the smaller all work with the same 6SN7 to ^^ adapter. Basically 12AX7, 12AV7, 12AZ7 etc. are mostly just different from the gain factor, the higher the letter preceding the 7 indicates louder gain, if I understand correctly
> 
> 
> 
> I've been finding that the smaller driver tubes on Elise can give an extra dimension of vividness, immediacy and clarity that I have never heard from any 6SN7 class tube yet


 
  
 I posted the value of these smaller 9 pin Noval 6DJ8 type tubes as drivers in Elise a while back. I'm very glad you tried them and find them as good as I do.
  
 Please tell us what headphones you were using for your comparisons-without that information your valuable findings can't be translated easily to other set-ups and ears. Thanks again.
  
 PS. GAIN doesn't necessarily increase as the letter before the 7 goes higher. 12A*X*7 is higher gain than 12A*T*7 which is higher than 12A*U*7.


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> … 6SN7 including it's little brethren of the ECC88 / 6DJ8 / 12AU7 type (*the smaller all work with the same 6SN7 to ^^ adapter*. …




Warning: *They Do Not!*


----------



## Oskari

quinto said:


> I'm about to order an Elise with stock tubes.can anyone tell if the tube update on Feliks'website (PsVane) is worth the 130$ or so extra?




Generally, the answer seems to have been: take the stock and see where you want to go from there.


----------



## HOWIE13

These are the adapters I use to connect 6DJ8/ECC88 type tubes to Elise's sockets. They seem sturdy and fit well. Not expensive either.
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-ECC88-6DJ8-6922-6N11-TO-6SN7-6N8P-VT231-B65-Tube-converter-adapter-/201042793753?hash=item2ecf159519:g:b8gAAOSwNsdXSsJ~


----------



## DecentLevi

oskari said:


> Warning: *They Do Not!*


 
 Waiit... what? Was that your pre-April fool's day joke? Any specific tubes you're referring to? I'd say let's treat his statement as a hypothesis until proven otherwise, because it's the logical scientific method to verify something before making a claim.
  
 What I was basically saying is that when using an adapter such as 6SN7 to ECC88, all of the 9-pin miniature tubes will be compatible as drivers on the Elise, such as 12AX7, 6DJ8 and all 12A*_*7 class, as these are the exact same pinout, minus small different Mu and Gain factors. The aforementioned are guaranteed to work, as long as the tube isn't defective. The other tubes listed on the compatibility chart should be compatible too, though some may / may not require the same adapter.
  
 Here's my favorite setup ever so far - for analogue-era recordings at least:

  
 And a close-up of the beautiful orange glowing pillars of these 6AS7G's:


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> Waiit... what? Was that your pre-April fool's day joke? Any specific tubes you're referring to? I'd say let's treat his statement as a hypothesis until proven otherwise, because it's the logical scientific method to verify something before making a claim.
> 
> What I was basically saying is that when using an adapter such as 6SN7 to ECC88, all of the 9-pin miniature tubes will be compatible as drivers on the Elise, such as 12AX7, 6DJ8 and all 12A*_*7 class, as these are the exact same pinout, minus small different Mu and Gain factors. The aforementioned are guaranteed to work, as long as the tube isn't defective.




Don't start. I can provide enough logical scientific method to match yours. :rolleyes:

Why don't you verify the heater pinouts of the following?



 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc88.html
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc83.html


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm no electronics expert but I believe you can't use 12.6V heater tubes, like 12AX7's, in Elise without an external tube heater power supply of around 12.6V, together with a suitable adapter.
  
 I can also certainly verify that if you mistakenly use a 12.6V tube in a 6DJ8/ECC88 to 6SN7 socket adapter you may just get smoke. I know 'cos it's happened to me on more than one occasion but not, mercifully, with Elise, and I'm not about to try!


----------



## 2359glenn

decentlevi said:


> oskari said:
> 
> 
> > Warning: *They Do Not!*
> ...


 

 The 12A_7 tubes can be used with the right adapter that will be different then a ECC88/6DJ8 adapter.
 ECC88 and 6DJ8 are 6.3 volt tubes.
 12A_7 tubes are 6.3 or 12.6 volts according to how they are wired.


----------



## HOWIE13

Does this adapter allow conversion of a 12V wired tube to 6V, to be able to be used in a 6V socket?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-gold-plated-12AU7-ECC82-TO-6CG7-6FQ7-tube-converter-adapter-/201084619346?hash=item2ed193ca52:g:hg0AAOSwx~JWFQTa
  
  
 and would this one be safe for Elise? I've always liked E80CC tubes in previous amps and would love to find out if they worked as drivers in Elise or not.
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-12AU7-ECC82-12AX7-ECC83-TO-6SN7-6N8P-6SL7-6N9P-Tube-adapter-/201114136577?hash=item2ed3563001:g:fwoAAOSwgQ9VnIRE


----------



## 2359glenn

howie13 said:


> Does this adapter allow conversion of a 12V wired tube to 6V, to be able to be used in a 6V socket?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-gold-plated-12AU7-ECC82-TO-6CG7-6FQ7-tube-converter-adapter-/201084619346?hash=item2ed193ca52:g:hg0AAOSwx~JWFQTa
> 
> ...


 

 You will still need a 9 pin to 8 pin adapter with that one.
 This one will work.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-12AU7-12AX7-to-6SL7-6SN7-tube-converter-adapter-/201320842633?hash=item2edfa84589:g:ge4AAOSw~gRVuNUb


----------



## HOWIE13

2359glenn said:


> You will still need a 9 pin to 8 pin adapter with that one.
> This one will work.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-12AU7-12AX7-to-6SL7-6SN7-tube-converter-adapter-/201320842633?hash=item2edfa84589:g:ge4AAOSw~gRVuNUb


 
  
 Cheers,Glenn. I must have been editing my post to include that one just as you were typing your reply.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Appreciate your help. No idea if E80CC will work but I'll give it a try-it's a favourite tube in my Garage amps, especially for vocals.


----------



## Oskari

Groove:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U43-rXCRlz8[/VIDEO]


----------



## 2359glenn

howie13 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > You will still need a 9 pin to 8 pin adapter with that one.
> ...


 

 The E80CC will work with the 12AU7 adapter.


----------



## Oskari

Something stupid:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f48fpoSEPU[/VIDEO]



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f43nR8Wu_1Y[/VIDEO]


----------



## DecentLevi

Apologies, Oskari. It looks like the 12A_(T,U,V,X)_7 class tubes are generally not compatible in the Elise's 6SN7 driver tube slot. However there are 6 volt versions (the ones with parallel wiring) which should definitely work, though needing their own adapter. This data sheet shows the voltage / heater current for both serial and parallel versions of these tubes:
  
 http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/093/1/12AT7.pdf
  
 Interesting though, on the Ember Tube Rolling thread, the first post has numerous mentions of these 12AX7 tubes used in the Ember, which has one identical 6SN7 slot as the Elise driver slots. I presume they were using a separate adapter, and only the 6v versions, and otherwise the 12v versions probably had little more negative effect than draining more power.
  
 It would be interesting to get this all sorted out though, as it seems the 12A*_*7 tubes are much more plentiful and even cheaper than the ECC88 / 6DJ7 class, making them much easier to source


----------



## DecentLevi

Also I've read glowing reviews of the performance of the smaller 6FQ7 tubes, notably in their soundstage. These are the successor of the 6CG7 which are both interchangeable, have identical voltage specs as the 6SN7, yet need their own adapter. No problemo, gold ones here are on the cheap.
  

  
 Helpful read here:
 http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> It looks like the 12A_(T,U,V,X)_7 class tubes are generally not compatible in the Elise's 6SN7 driver tube slot. However there are 6 volt versions (the ones with parallel wiring) which should definitely work, though needing their own adapter. This data sheet shows the voltage / heater current for both serial and parallel versions of these tubes:
> 
> http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/093/1/12AT7.pdf




They are not different versions. Every 12AT7 (etc.) is like that. One can wire the heaters in two different ways, in series or in parallel. For 6V operation in Elise, in parallel is what you want. The correct adapter does this for you.

P.S. Ember is a special case. I hope the folks in the Ember thread will explain it to you.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Also I've read glowing reviews of the performance of the smaller 6FQ7 tubes, notably in their soundstage. These are the successor of the 6CG7 which are both interchangeable, have identical voltage specs as the 6SN7, yet need their own adapter. No problemo, gold ones here are on the cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 My 6CG7 drivers were sounding a bit fruity this morning, perfectly pleasant sound combined with 7236 Powers, but not, in my opinion, as clear or dynamic, or with as wide a sound-stage as the C3g drivers I was using earlier and which sound superb with the 7236's and T1g2.
  
 I also unearthed two 6FQ7 tubes which I had used in Horizon and Ember, but found them quite microphonic. In Elise there is a bit of microphony too, but they still sound sweet and clean- though I didn't think the sound-stage was exceptional, just average good. Perfectly okay drivers, but nothing exceptional.
  
 Here's a couple of pictures:


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 If you look into the Little Dot tube rolling thread you will find a huge amount of information on the miniature tubes. Since you are in discovery mode, why not try some sub miniature dual triode tubes designed for ballistic missiles - can withstand 500 G.
  




  
 This picture is of the Raytheon 6932 - a better sounding one is the Sylvania 7963. There are Russian versions as well.
  
 IMHO these classes of tubes do not sound as good as the octal drivers people have tried on this forum, not to mention the EL3N and similar tubes.
  
 Another miniature tube that sounds quite good is the 5687 but it has a different pin-out than the others.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi DL,
> 
> If you look into the Little Dot tube rolling thread you will find a huge amount of information on the miniature tubes. Since you are in discovery mode, why not try some sub miniature dual triode tubes designed for ballistic missiles - can withstand 500 G.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo mordy..._*precisely*_ why I left my beloved LD MKIVSE behind and persuaded Feliks-Audio to build the 6SN7/6AS7G amp in the first place...to go FORWARD lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...(but bringing the excellent C3g with me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). But I wouldn't want to spoil folks' fun in experimenting, nevertheless...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...to each his own LOL...


----------



## connieflyer

Same experience I had with the Ember, the more I rolled tubes even with the dual tube adapters, it just wasn't enough.  The Elise is turning out to be a very good  cost-benefit piece. Price for what is offered is very good, lots of possible tube combo's each one offers just a slight difference in sound, sound stage and definition.  I have not found any tubes to be over the top as far as "better" just because of the extreme price commanded for some tubes. Lots of inexpensive tubes to consider without breaking the bank. A while back I bought a pair of TS 5998 and while I like them very much, the pair of graphite plate 6080's that I bought for a quarter of the price sound just as good to me, a little different, but well worth the price paid.  I can not justify spending 70-80% of the price of the amp on tubes. Makes no sense to me at all. But to each his own, just wanted to let the folks that don't have and Elise and were reading this thread not to be scared off by the claims that to be happy with this amp you must spend large amounts of money on tubes.


----------



## mordy

Hi CF,
  
 Agree with you completely - some excellent sounding tubes are quite inexpensive. And the Elise manages to sound good with almost any tubes.


----------



## DecentLevi

So I just chanced upon this discovery:

 Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z. These look to be some outstanding performers, and finally we would get an ST-shaped *driver *tube, as these are a 6SN7 replacement. I think anyone considering this should put aside any bias against Chinese made products - after all HiFiman is Chinese too. I'm personally not going this route yet, but would love to hear from anyone who might take the plunge on this one for the Elise, and I'm sure your ears will thank you too! 
  
 A little reading on these 'treasures':
 http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Shuguang-Treasure-CV181-Z
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5955#post_12913875
 http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html
  
 PS- These are newer manufactured tubes and are even available on Amazon


----------



## DecentLevi

So I've decided I'll probably go for 1 pair each 6FQ7 and 6CG7, and 1 pair each of 12AT7 and 12AV7. The 12A_7 tubes will require the adapter mentioned on the previous page. Surprisingly though it looked like Howie was using the 6FQ7 / 6CG7 in the ECC88 to 6SN7 adapter... are you sure that's safe? I was told these need their own adapter. Maybe I will get a dedicated 6FQ7 / 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter just to be on the safe side.
  
 Also @HOWIE13, I was using my custom-modded HD-650 headphones for the tube comparisons earlier, mentioned in this mod thread here


----------



## Spork67

decentlevi said:


> Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z. These look to be some outstanding performers, and finally we would get an ST-shaped *driver *tube, as these are a 6SN7 replacement. I think anyone considering this should put aside any bias against Chinese made products - after all HiFiman is Chinese too. I'm personally not going this route yet, but would love to hear from anyone who might take the plunge on this one for the Elise, and I'm sure your ears will thank you too!


 
  
 Wouldn't you call the EL3N an ST shaped (driver) tube, or the Visseaux 6N7G?


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh yeah the EL3N is, but haven't tried the 6N7


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> So I just chanced upon this discovery:
> 
> Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z. These look to be some outstanding performers, and finally we would get an ST-shaped *driver *tube, as these are a 6SN7 replacement. I think anyone considering this should put aside any bias against Chinese made products - after all HiFiman is Chinese too. I'm personally not going this route yet, but would love to hear from anyone who might take the plunge on this one for the Elise, and I'm sure your ears will thank you too!
> 
> ...


 
  
 We've mentioned these on this thread before.
  
 Nice performers, smooth and neutral no microphonics, but not very dynamic. Average soundstage- not, in my opinion, 'outstanding performers', but I see they have come down in price recently so could be worth a try if you want this sort of sound.
  
 See post#134:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/120 
  
 and more on the next page (p10) of this thread. #137 and #149.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> So I've decided I'll probably go for 1 pair each 6FQ7 and 6CG7, and 1 pair each of 12AT7 and 12AV7. The 12A_7 tubes will require the adapter mentioned on the previous page. Surprisingly though it looked like Howie was using the 6FQ7 / 6CG7 in the ECC88 to 6SN7 adapter... are you sure that's safe? I was told these need their own adapter. Maybe I will get a dedicated 6FQ7 / 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter just to be on the safe side.
> 
> Also @HOWIE13, I was using my custom-modded HD-650 headphones for the tube comparisons earlier, mentioned in this mod thread here


 
  
 Thanks for the info.
  
 Good luck with the 6FQ7/6CG7. I also read on the Bottlehead Forum about their expansive sound stage but I didn't find them particularly so. Maybe it's because I'm comparing them in Elise with the capaciousness of the 5998, EL3N, and your, now wilting, Christmas Tree.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
_'Surprisingly though it looked like Howie was using the 6FQ7 / 6CG7 in the ECC88 to 6SN7 adapter... are you sure that's safe?'_
  
 Pin-outs are the same, and they sound safe.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 Here is a picture of my collection of some 15 6FQ7/6CG7 tubes. I have GE, Raytheon and Sears (Sylvania) tubes. PM me if you want to buy any.
  




  
 I also have 8V FQ7 and CG7 tubes, but they require external power.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Same experience I had with the Ember, the more I rolled tubes even with the dual tube adapters, it just wasn't enough.  The Elise is turning out to be a very good  cost-benefit piece. Price for what is offered is very good, lots of possible tube combo's each one offers just a slight difference in sound, sound stage and definition.  I have not found any tubes to be over the top as far as "better" just because of the extreme price commanded for some tubes. Lots of inexpensive tubes to consider without breaking the bank. A while back I bought a pair of TS 5998 and while I like them very much, the pair of graphite plate 6080's that I bought for a quarter of the price sound just as good to me, a little different, but well worth the price paid.  I can not justify spending 70-80% of the price of the amp on tubes. Makes no sense to me at all. But to each his own, just wanted to let the folks that don't have and Elise and were reading this thread not to be scared off by the claims that to be happy with this amp you must spend large amounts of money on tubes.


 
 CF:  I'm with you; There are many economical tubes that sound great on the Elise and it is an outstanding cost-benefit amp.
  
 I don't really understand the desire to try every tube possible, but if someone enjoys that I certainly am not one to complain.
  
 At the risk of a little hyperbole, every day when I turn on my Elise I feel a little like I'm hearing something wonderful for the first time, and have difficulty pulling myself away to live my non-headphone life))))


----------



## Spork67

pctazhp said:


> At the risk of a little hyperbole, every day when I turn on my Elise I feel a little like I'm hearing something wonderful for the first time, and have difficulty pulling myself away to live my non-headphone life))))


 
  
 This.
 I have a strict "Don't turnElise on before work" rule, or I'd be late every day.


----------



## Oskari

Wonderful thing:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFGg9b-riw0[/VIDEO]


----------



## Oskari

Armband:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-_GyqLnBsY[/VIDEO]


----------



## DecentLevi

spork67 said:


> This.
> I have a strict "Don't turnElise on before work" rule, or I'd be late every day.


 
 I turn mine on only when I have long listening sessions available in order to properly enjoy its' greatness, similar to requiring longer timeframes when making music / sound effects


----------



## DecentLevi

*CASE STUDY*​ GEC 6AS7G (brown *curved* base, NOS) vs. unbranded / GEC or "MWT" labeled 6AS7G (brown *straight* base)​  ​ * All of these 6AS7G's are in fact A1834, including the ones with the genuine GEC label
  
 ​  ​  

_(actual photos taken by me today)_
  

*GEC 6AS7G pair (curved base, not burned in):*
    Vivid, organic, perfect tonality, huge soundstage, hard hitting with _*exquisite *_layering / imaging ability. Occasional trace hint of 'grainyness' / harshness.
*branded + MWT labeled 6AS7G pair (straight base, burned in)*
    _*Extremely *_vivid, organic, perfect tonality, huge soundstage, hard hitting with _*phenomenal *_layering / imaging ability. And now with increased 'energy' and a velvety lushness. Dynamics are equal. Overall sound at least 20% more organic / lifelike, and seems slightly smoother vs. a _borderling _solid-state like sound of the NOS GECs. Subtle amount of added lushness / vividness and the _smallest of smallest_ addition of a 'laid back' signature seems to loose an _extremely nuance_ amount of instrument separation compared with the above.
  
 These both have absolutely 100% internal construction, the only physical difference being the shape of the base. In all likelyhood, the 'white label' ones were in fact rebrands manufactured in the same factory. However those white label (straight base) ones are my _current _favorite, I'm unable to _conclude _on a "favorite". Being the 'white label' version appears to be burned in, the difference may have nothing at all to do with base shapes, but rather burn-in amount. 
  
 Conclusion: If you're ever lucky enough to chance upon a 'white label' or MWT labeled 6AS7G or A1834, run towards it like a marathon, because these are indeed the real thing, and in my case, very truly and literally sounding even somewhat better than the real thing.
  
 (both actually being the 'real thing', just in different states of burn-in and base shapes)
  
​  ​ ​  
  
*BONUS*​ GEC 6AS7G vs. GEC 6080​  
 Construction: the internal construction is identical to the its' larger brethren, minus differences both above and below the plates and of course the ST vs. straight-form shape.
  
 Sound: coming from a fresh listen with the 'white label' (authentic rebranded) 6AS7 / A1834 my initial reaction was that this is "worse". However after a moment of letting my ears adjust, it became clear the main difference is the 6080's is more clarity in the place of lushness and 'warmth'. With these you get a sound that keeps much of the lifelike sound of the above, yet a somewhat smaller, more tightly articulated 'package'. The 6080's sound much more 'solid-state' like, leaner, tighter and moderately brighter, while retaining much (but not all) of the the timbre / tone of the GEC 6AS7G's that's nearly untouched by any other tube. It has much more 'air' than its' larger bretheren, yet soundstage / imaging are both reduced. Dynamics on the 6080's are superior to both the 6AS7G's. These make it a great choice for electronic music, pop and possibly jazz, however a touch too lean on the bass for some songs.
  
 PS- You may be asking why the *#$% do you have more than one pair of ST-shaped GEC's?... silly story really. At first I was only able to find one on eBay, then was able to snag another separately (though unmatched, these turned out to perform better so far). Then about a week later after posting on another Head-Fi thread requesting info. on unrelated tubes, by total random chance I happened to get a reply from another Head-Fi'er who had a genuine mint-condition NOS pair of the GEC's, which he sold me for a steal-deal along with five other sets of power tubes. My plan is to keep the original as a backup.
  
  
 * tested on the Elise (original version) with Mimby DAC and modded HD-650's with both rock, blues and electro .FLAC songs


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> *CASE STUDY*​ GEC 6AS7G (brown *curved* base, NOS) vs. unbranded / GEC or "MWT" labeled 6AS7G (brown *straight* base)​  ​ * All of these 6AS7G's are in fact A1834, including the ones with the genuine GEC label
> 
> ​  ​
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very nice collection indeed DL - well done!...you are extremely fortunate - you haven't bin doin' a Bonnie and Clyde job at all, have you lol?!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 A couple of points...
  
 1. You did in fact mention difference in burn-in time, which will of course alter the situation a good bit further down the road, but perceived wisdom does indeed conclude that any difference (if at all!) between curved and straight-bottom base tubes is _*extremely*_ minute, and probably no more than exists between tubes even from the same production line - hence no real justification for vendors to slap on any kind of silly premium. And are the 6080s NOS? If so, these will also of course be needing more burn-in yet to gain a more accurate picture.
  
 2. You didn't say which drivers were used...these too, needless to say, will alter the situation somewhat.
  
 You must indeed have spent a good many hours putting these tubes through their paces, but I fear you still have a long way to go before a definitive result can be attained from such an enviably large collection of "Holy Grail" tubes LOL...patience, mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...look forward to your findings a good bit further down the road...


----------



## Spork67

I figure my EL3N's have had a good run and will be well on their way to being burned in by now.
 The 2 I got first and used as drivers should have 100+ hours on them.
 Removed four of the "six-pack" from the power sockets and popped the RCA 6080's in to try with EL3N drivers.
 Meh. Not a _bad_ sound - but not as good as Elise sounds with some other combos.
 Waited a few minutes for the 6080's to cool down and replaced them with my TS 5998 as powers with my 100+ hour EL3N's.
 Yep. Certainly a very, very nice combination.


----------



## mordy

Hi Spork67,
  
 As they say, YMMV - in my system (using Elise as a preamp and listening through speakers) I prefer the RCA 6080 tubes. But my main point is that for $5-7/tube you can get very good sound.
  
 Now, for those of you who want to follow Dl's advice and buy the MWT (Marconi Wire Telegraph?) tubes, there are two NOS for sale from a Canadian seller:
  




 http://www.ebay.com/itm/VALVE-M-W-T-CV2523-A1834-A-1834-6AS7G-Tube-1-Piece-NEW-/322311485184?hash=item4b0b42f700:g:CxoAAOSwn7JYE7ND
  
 and




 http://www.ebay.com/itm/VALVE-M-W-T-A1834-A-1834-CV2523-6AS7G-Tube-1-Piece-NEW-/322311492898?hash=item4b0b431522:g:is4AAOSwo4pYE6o2
  
 Don't worry about the seller's 0 feedback - he started a new seller account for tubes, but has been selling antique cameras for a while:
  
In case you have concern about my low feedback, note this is my new ebay account.  I am selling camera, lens, watch on E-bay for more than 10 years. See my other E-bay account by clicking on below links. You can send message to me if you need verification.
http://www.ebay.ca/usr/leica-ur
  
http://www.ebay.ca/usr/leica-historica
  
As for me, I am not yet ready to spend $450 for a pair.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi Spork67,
> 
> As they say, YMMV - in my system (using Elise as a preamp and listening through speakers) I prefer the RCA 6080 tubes. But my main point is that for $5-7/tube you can get very good sound.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Don't blame you mordy...much as I love my own lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...just keep your (patient!) eagle eyes open for the 'sleepers/non-GEC labelled' bargains - but just how patient _are_ you, mon ami! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - perhaps _luckier_ then?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


----------



## connieflyer

I have found a somewhat cheaper way to enjoy the refinement and clarity of the GEC tube. I printed out the above photo of the GEC  placed it in front of my Joy bringers and  graphite plates and look at them and think how good they sound like this.  Try it , very cheap, and doesn't take much mind control to tell these are the best!


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Now, for those of you who want to follow Dl's advice and buy the MWT (Marconi Wire Telegraph?) tubes, …




Quiz time! Another word for radio?


----------



## 2359glenn

oskari said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Now, for those of you who want to follow Dl's advice and buy the MWT (Marconi Wire Telegraph?) tubes, …
> ...


 

 Wireless


----------



## Oskari

2359glenn said:


> Wireless




Yes! Thus: Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Co.


----------



## Oskari

– Do I move slower than tectonic plates?
– That is a fair question.
– The Valvo C3g/s tubes still sound absolutely fabulous. I'll get back to the EL3Ns. Eventually.
– We've heard that before.
– Never mind. Where's the bolli-stoli?

Ulkopuolella:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR1Y3izii08[/VIDEO]


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> Hi Spork67,
> 
> As they say, YMMV - in my system (using Elise as a preamp and listening through speakers) I prefer the RCA 6080 tubes. But my main point is that for $5-7/tube you can get very good sound.
> 
> ...


 

 You serious, buddy? Those are well overpriced tubes. I cannot tell any difference between the MWT and the GEC.


----------



## DecentLevi

$450 is slightly steep for a pair, seen 'em for near $600 IIRC, which is still reasonable for the amount of 'bang-for-buck with these, especially if they're in mint condition.


----------



## mordy

(image missing)
  
 I imagine the beautiful blue color comes from Beryllium......
  
 Orange, light blue, pink and fiery white - this gotta sound great!


----------



## mordy

Hi attmci,
  
 MWT was just another GEC label so I am sure that the tubes sound the same. There are early examples with the Marconi label as well. I just cannot get myself to spend almost as much on one pair of tubes as I spent on the amp itself.
  
 PS: I am a Verizon customer
  
 Hi Oskari,
  
 I have several pairs of the Siemens C3g (and one pair of the C3gS) tubes. These are great tubes but in my system they are too bright. Maybe I should spend time on finding the right tube to pair them with...
  
 Here is my favorite tube photo. It is a C3g and the picture was taken by somebody in Scandinavia. I imagine that the beautiful blue color comes from Beryllium.
  
  
  
  





 
  
 Orange, light blue, pink and fiery white - it has to sound good!


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Oskari, remember recommended reading for today is the story of MOV


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi attmci,
> 
> MWT was just another GEC label so I am sure that the tubes sound the same. There are early examples with the Marconi label as well. I just cannot get myself to spend almost as much on one pair of tubes as I spent on the amp itself.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey mordy...you (and @Oskari) have got me reminiscing BIG time over my former love 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...hard to beat indeed, if one can just tailor the rest of the system to handle its 'eager' treble lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## connieflyer

I wonder if you could use paint stripper instead of scrapping the paint off the tube. Seems like it would do a good job with out all the pressure on the glass


----------



## Oskari

rosgr63 said:


> Hi Oskari, remember recommended reading for today is the story of MOV




Ok. 




oskari said:


> There was a manufacturer called M-O Valve Co. (MOV), originally Marconi-Osram Valve Co. This was a GEC (Osram being their brand) and Marconi joint venture. Later on, MOV was owned by GEC and EMI, and even later on by GEC alone. So, MOV was the manufacturer. Brands such as Marconi, Osram, MWT, GEC, etc. appeared.







oskari said:


> Let's all remember, though, that a particular brand, whether Marconi, Osram, MWT, GEC, Genalex or any other, won't make an M-O Valve product sound any different. Vintage or sample-to-sample variation _may_...


----------



## frederick-rea

oskari said:


> rosgr63 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Oskari, remember recommended reading for today is the story of MOV
> ...




Loving my setup since 5 months
Powers GEC 6SA7G
Drivers Sylvania 6F8G

I would like to know the date of the Gec's
One SA Z
Second RM Z

Listening with EAD DAC and Audeze LCD-XC
Best overall, soundstage, wonderfull low end and perfect HF even with female voices 
Sometimes I change powers to TS 5998 but I have a little bit of harsh HF and SSSSS
As TS 5998 has a greater gain (4,5) than the GEC's (2) I have to slide the volume a bit to have the same equalization
Because my Audeze's are from the bright side (and my ears are not so good) I always had problems with Siemens C3G and I couldn't find any powers to married them, so I could not listen to voices

I insist that I am very happy with the Sylvanias even better than Philips EL3N 
I don't mind to spend 400 or more on the CEC's because they send ELISE to a new level of 2000/3000 hi end with this minimalist headphone amp. The better I have heard since 40 years of good Hi end audio, At this time we have, as well, very good registers and downloads, specially at 24bits


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> I wonder if you could use paint stripper instead of scrapping the paint off the tube. Seems like it would do a good job with out all the pressure on the glass




Which tube do you mean?


----------



## Oskari

frederick-rea said:


> I would like to know the date of the Gec's
> One SA Z
> Second RM Z




RM = Dec 60, SA = Jan 61.


----------



## connieflyer

oskari said:


> Which tube do you mean?


 

 Sorry, late last nite, the C3G's


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Sorry, late last nite, the C3G's




Ah, but the C3g glass tube is in an aluminum can, it's not just paint.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks @Oskari forgot that little detail


----------



## hypnos1

frederick-rea said:


> Loving my setup since 5 months
> Powers GEC 6SA7G
> Drivers Sylvania 6F8G
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi f-r...glad you too are enjoying the magic of the GEC family of 6AS7G - let's hope they have a nice *long* life, no?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








...(I think that makes four of us "_extra_ lucky ones" now lol!... Elise certainly does seem to love 'em! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


connieflyer said:


> Sorry, late last nite, the C3G's


 
  
 Aaahhh cf - looks like Oskari has beaten me to it...that 'black' is indeed the metal casing. Most of us prefer to release the little marvel from its prison...WITH CARE!!!...


----------



## connieflyer

Oskari is very quick on the replies!


----------



## frederick-rea

oskari said:


> frederick-rea said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to know the date of the Gec's
> ...




Thank you Oscary


----------



## attmci

frederick-rea said:


> Thank you Oscary


 

 Here is the GEC year code:
  
 A 1945
 B 46
 C 47
 D 48
 E 49
 F 50
 G 51
 H 52
 J 53
 K 54
 L 55
 M 56
 N 57
 P 58
 Q 59
 R 60
 S 61
 T 62
 U 63
 V 64
 W 65
 X 66
 Y 67
 Z 1968
  
 Someone had claimed that a "MWT" is generally better than a "GEC" in this thread, but didn't tell us the year of manufacture. Tubes made in the earlier years could be better than the later ones. Just my 2c. Moreover, GEC are great tubes but they won't transfer your $600 amp to an $2000 one.


----------



## Spork67

> Someone had claimed that a "MWT" is generally better than a "GEC" in this thread, but didn't tell us the year of manufacture. Tubes made in the earlier years could be better than the later ones. Just my 2c. Moreover, GEC are great tubes but they won't transfer your $600 amp to an $2000 one.


 
  
 They will come close at the prices some people are asking for them.
 Amp - $600
 Tubes (4@ $350 each) $1400
 $2000


----------



## DecentLevi

Slight misunderstanding - I didn't mean to say the MWT 6AS7G's are better than the GEC's. I said the pair I had sounded better to me, either because of the base shape or more likely their being burned in. (I meant the originals may become equal performers, with burn in). The codes on my GEC matched pair is SL Z, which doesn't follow the above date code pattern so no idea when they were made.  Oh I got a good deal on my two pairs for only $600, but ironically I've spent near that, at $1,500 $1,850 of tubes / adapters in the last two weeks (including more not mentioned, so stay tuned 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). No problem really, because most are re-saleable should I not like some.
  
  
 ... What do you expect an OCD audiophile to do when he gets a raise, LOL


----------



## DecentLevi

_updated my above post_
  
 Also the date code on one of the two from the 6AS7G pair I'm using is VC Z - none of which match the above date code format so I think that may be an erroneous chart. Actually the pair I like best and had mentioned about is one genuine labeled GEC 6AS7G code VC Z with one identically constructed MWT 6AS7G without a date code.


----------



## Oskari

attmci said:


> Here is the GEC year code:
> 
> A 1945
> B 46
> ...




Let's add the months.

A 1
B 2
C 3
D 4
E 5
F 6
G 7
H 8
J 9
K 10
L 11
M 12

First character is year, second character month.


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> Also the date code on one of the two from the 6AS7G pair I'm using is VC Z - none of which match the above date code format so I think that may be an erroneous chart.




:confused_face(1):

SL = Nov 61, VC = Mar 64.


----------



## DecentLevi

Interesting - looks like the newer GEC's had the straight brown base, and those I liked better so far


----------



## DecentLevi

*Bendix 6080WB / Chatham 6080WB compared*​  
 You may recall several weeks ago my order of supposed "RCA 6080" had a Raytheon label and turned out to be what @UntilThen thought was a rebranded Bendix 6080:
  

  
 All this time I've been under the impression that the above is true, until I received a pair of genuine Bendix 6080:

 As you can see, they both have graphite / carbon plates, but the bendix plates are smaller and slotted. 
  
 Then I realised what I originally had was actually a Selectron rebranded Chatham 6080:

  
 Comparing the photos of Chatham 6080 I've found to my Selectron rebrand, there's no question these are 100% identical.
  
 Sound comparison:
 Unfortunately due to a technical error I will only be giving a 'by-memory' comparison. My rebranded Chatham 6080's caused some sort of unexplained ark a while back... just listening to the music for a while and out of the blue I hear an alarmingly loud single 'POP' of a firecracker sound in my right channel - luckily it was not deafening and a careful checking of both my hearing and the Elise + headphones I was using revealed all to be miraculously in good condition, though annoying enough to make me turn off my hi-fi rig for the night and shelf those blasted rebrands! They still work well, but I'm afraid to use them.
  
 The above being said, what I can say by memory is that the rebranded Chatham 6080's sound quite weighty, full, thick yet authoritative. And the genuine Bendix by contrast sound much clearer with a slight treble emphasis and more energetic. The bass definition is much faster in place of the thick / weighty presentation of the former, yet it seemed slightly boomy as if the PRaT is less than ideal.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 From memory there are four different versions of the 6080WB Bendix carbon plate tubes; the slotted ones you have (lucky you!) are supposed to be the best. (I have not heard the Bendix tubes myself - yet.)
  
 There are carbon plate tubes by Chatham, Tung Sol, Raytheon and Bendix, but I don't know if they are all Bendix tubes. There are other rebranders as well.


----------



## connieflyer

The pair I have are Raytheon, and they sound great.


----------



## DecentLevi

*Bendix 6080WB / Mullard 6080 (CV 2984) / TUNG-SOL 7236 compared*​  ​ Well after much tube-swapping and comparison with several lossless songs that are good for headphone tests, using both my modded HD-650 and modded HP-100 headphones, here are the results in case this could benefit anybody.
  
  
  
  

*Mullard 6080*
  Lush, silky pleasing mids, nice slightly airy treble detail, great dynamics, good 'energy' and bass definition / PRaT that's 'perfect' for all intensive purposes. A (present) king for electronic music and 'OK' with pop / rock as well.
*Bendix 6080WB* _(version pictured above on top left)_
  Airy treble with a slight treble emphasis, *great *level of energy, bass that's stronger / fuller than the Mullards, dynamics are better, instrument separation is better, yet PRaT that seems ever so _slightly _box-like compared to the Mullards. I have a feeling this can change with burn-in, seeing how these are completely NOS / newly used. These are preferable / fantastic for the likes of rock music as of yet.
*Tung Sol 7236*
  Lush mids with a 3D-ish charactor, yet quite bright. Phenomenal level of energy and extremely lifelike / vivid, yet tonality seems slightly off kilter.  The best instrument separation and dynamics of these three, yet strong emphasis of both treble and clarity, to the point that it becomes too analytical / revealing to 'mesh' with most genres. Still too bright even with the highs EQ'd down and with the HD-650 headphone.
  
  
  
 Update 60-min. into this comparison: Seems this particular slotted Bendix pair is somethin' special! Just this short listen seems to reveal improvement with burn-in. Fantastic dynamics, instrument separation and realism. How much burn-in is recommended with these?


----------



## DecentLevi

connieflyer said:


> The pair I have are Raytheon, and they sound great.


 
 Those are the same as mine (which are completely identical to Chatham 6080WB) which blew up yet still coming out just fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. They sounded great to me also and the thick / weightyness I mentioned about was only a moderate one. But the slotted graphite plate Bendix take the cake of these


----------



## DecentLevi

Incoming yesterday were my driver tubes
  
​  
*6SN7 pairs*
- Sylvania 6SN7 3 hole Bad Boys
- Ken-Rad VT231 
- Sylvania 6SN7W Short Bottle
- National Union CNU 6SN7 Grey Glass
 - RCA Grey Glass
- RCA Grey Glass early version
 
*Miniature pairs*
 - Amperex Premium Quality 7062 NIB 1962
- RCA 12AZ7
  
 - 6FQ7 / 6CG7 RCA
 - 6FQ7 / 6CG7 Japan Realistic & Amperex

  
 Most of the 6SN7's I got were in effort to 'mellow out' the extra bright / dynamic sound of the Western Electric 421A power tubes. Several of these I got thanks to the advice from @HOWIE13... speaking of such, I haven't seen you around. Did something happen?
  
 Anyway I've only tried about half of these so far... I've stumbled across something absolutely revoluntionary for the Elise... something you would not expect at all. Keep tuned for more on it later 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 Also I should mention that all of these genuine, mint condition, carefully tested relic tubes along with two of my three pairs of GEC's, TS 7236, Chatham + Tung Sol 5998's and the marvelous Bendix pair shown above (minus the two smaller pairs on the lower right)... these were ALL from the world-class member Stavros (@rosgr63 - the best friend of Glenn). He's still got some more totally genuine tubes at unbeatable prices if anybody would like to contact him... and shipping took only 3 days from Greece to the western US!


----------



## DecentLevi

THIS is so far the best setup _(of the one tube per socket anyway) _I've found today!!
  
 NON-STOP SPLENDID SONIC TRANSFIXATION, BRILLIANCE AND PERFECTION FULL-STOP! Crisp, hella vivid, pure, super reaching FR, grandiose slamming bass and dynamics, clarity... the whole far extruding 3D refined package!!!
  

*BENDIX SLOTTED GRAPHITE PLATES + SYLVANIA 6SN7GT true 'BAD BOY's*
_(Should've known Bendix + Bad Boys would be a natural match, LOL)_
  
 PS- Forget everything I said about an off-kilter PRaT of the Bendix's. This may have been due to synergy with the drivers I was using for the comparison (GE 6SN7 GTA)


----------



## DecentLevi

- Well I just tried the Bad Boys and Smoked Glass 6SN7's with the GEC 6080 straight-form tubes, and the pairing were both very well but not close to the synergy of these with the Bendix. The GEC 6080's are too bright and not as dynamic as the slotted Bendix. And the GEC 6080's are so microphic with some drivers that it picked up the sound of myself clearing my throat.
  
 - Trying the Bad Boy 6SN7's with GEC 6AS7G (ST-shaped) tubes, this pairing does not work at all. Glaringly bright / vivid and overtly energetic.
 - Then the Ken-Rad VT-231 6SN7's are also a non-starter with the GEC 6AS7Gs for much of the same reason as the above pairing, as these two 6SN7's are quite similar.
 - Then the RCA 6SN7 smoked glass were a bad pairing with the GEC 6AS7Gs - too dark / congested overall and not lifelike. One of these two pairs sounded moderately better with them
 - But the National Union 6SN7 GT smoked glass + GEC 6AS7G are better than the above Bendix + Bad Boys _in some ways_: less cohesion & bass in exchange for greater soundstage and more organic overall.

  
 - The Sylvania 6SN7W + GEC 6AS7G were actually quite an impressive pairing too - astoundingly vivid, expansive, lifelike with authoratative bass and slightly more cohesive. Further testing required between these two pairings with the GEC's
  
 PS- for anyone new here, these tubes do not require adapters (those are just "socket savers" under my tubes)


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Incoming yesterday were my driver tubes
> 
> ​
> *6SN7 pairs*
> ...


 
  
 Good tubes there. I'm glad you are enjoying them. Bad Boy and K-R VT231 are favourite drivers of mine- very different characters,of course- just depends what I'm listening to.
  
 I've been engrossed in my new T1 and haven't been rolling much at all as I've found T-S 5998 and 6080 with the aforementioned drivers sufficient to immerse me in glorious music without thinking of wanting to improve the sound by purchasing new very expensive tubes. How long that will last -who knows! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, yesterday a package arrived from Mrs X and I got my first opportunity to try'12V' drivers, my lovely Tungsram E80CC's, in Elise. I put 12V in inverted commas as until the recent posts on this topic I didn't realise that some tubes, conventionally regarded as having 12V heaters, could also work with 6V, using an appropriate adapter.
  
 Without going into any hype these, with T-S 6080 power tubes, give exceptional sound stage depth. It's too soon to say whether the rest of the sound is any better than other good combos I've tried- it has a sweet, detailed signature which is definitely up there with the best I've heard, but that three dimensional sound is very special. and unexpected. 
  
 Here's a photo for the collection:


----------



## DecentLevi

Great to hear from you again @HOWIE13. Looks like you have a decent selection of the miniature tubes. I'll also be getting my 12AT7 adapter soon so can finally try some more that I have. I've been full circle on driver tubes especially a super diverse variety of 6SN7's and I can attest that _(at least the right pair of)_ these miniature tubes can do fidelity in the Elise unlike any larger brethren! These are IMO, the future. I've been holding back on something with you guys. It's just too exquisite to try to put it in writing, and frankly I'm wondering if my impressions will be believed or not... so Howie if you have the quad EL3N (powers) setup, I'll let you be the first to report on the sound of those with some of your miniature drivers. Warning, your heart may skip a beat. (but post that on the other Elise thread)


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Great to hear from you again @HOWIE13. Looks like you have a decent selection of the miniature tubes. I'll also be getting my 12AT7 adapter soon so can finally try some more that I have. I've been full circle on driver tubes especially a super diverse variety of 6SN7's and I can attest that _(at least the right pair of)_ these miniature tubes can do fidelity in the Elise unlike any larger brethren! These are IMO, the future. I've been holding back on something with you guys. It's just too exquisite to try to put it in writing, and frankly I'm wondering if my impressions will be believed or not... so Howie if you have the quad EL3N (powers) setup, I'll let you be the first to report on the sound of those with some of your miniature drivers. Warning, your heart may skip a beat. (but post that on the other Elise thread)


 
  
 I've been enjoying and been an advocate of the smaller driver tubes in Elise for a while now.. They not only sound good but are exceptionally quiet and not microphonic. Cheap to buy, comparatively speaking, as well.
  
 The 4 pack EL3N powers work very well with 6DJ8/ECC88 Bugle Boy, Mullard, GE 'Dark Glass', and also the larger Russian 6N6P and 6N30P tubes. I'm sure others will work well too. In general I find they are more inclined to inner detail than warmth- but are still sweet sounding and not overly bright. 
  
 Now I have the adapter I must, like you, try some 12AU7/AT7/AX7 tubes too, BUT-I'm still wallowing in my new T1 to go too far astray, tube wise, at present.
  
 Please post your impressions-it may be a while before I get to listen again with my 4 pack.
  
 EDIT: As DL has mentioned, some are warm too. I find the GE 'Dark Glass' and 6N6P particularly so.


----------



## HOWIE13

On a bit of a roll now with my new 12A_7 to 6SN7 adapter, which you need for these '12V' 9 pin Novals:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201320842633?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Using T-S 6080 power tubes, as they are already in place, and T1g2, I tried several 12AU7 tubes. They all work nicely and are smooth and warm, almost cuddly!. Ample, if not massive, sound-stages. Not the most dynamic sound I've heard from Elise though- but would be great for late night relaxing.  I had to up the vol knob an hour or two compared to 6SN7 tubes-not a problem though, sound doesn't suffer. Best of these lower gain tubes were RCA 12AU7A 'black plates' (labelled Conn), Bugle Boy 12AU7 and GE12BH7.
  
 Next up was Bugle Boy 12AT7- a complete contrast! Dynamic, lively, brilliant euphony. Certainly a driver I'll come back to and I'll need to try some other 12AT7's when I can find where I've put them all.
  
 Sadly 12AX7's don't synergise with the 6080 as there is virtually no sound until you turn the vol knob to noon. It then sounds fine but clearly isn't going to be a realistic option for my low-recorded Classical. I'm a bit surprised as I thought the higher gain tube would give a louder sound but it clearly doesn't work that way. Maybe the higher gain 5998 would be a better matching power tube.
  
 (Remember, as always, using novel tubes/adapters could invalidate the Warranty if Elise is damaged).
  
 EDIT: Have now tried 5998 and Xmas tree powers with the 12AX7 tubes and there is reasonable volume from about 10 o'clock. Warm sound.


----------



## DavidA

howie13 said:


> On a bit of a roll now with my new 12A_7 to 6SN7 adapter, which you need for these '12V' 9 pin Novals:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201320842633?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 
 12AU7 and 5998 sounds like a double BH Crack


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> 12AU7 and 5998 sounds like a double BH Crack


 
  
 If I wasn't so lazy I would have slotted my 5998's in to see.


----------



## HOWIE13

I've just been on the Crack site and the 6080's are also used as power tubes-so we really DO have a Double Crack now.


----------



## 2359glenn

howie13 said:


> On a bit of a roll now with my new 12A_7 to 6SN7 adapter, which you need for these '12V' 9 pin Novals:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201320842633?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 

 A great sounding tube you can use with that adapter is the E80CC


----------



## HOWIE13

2359glenn said:


> A great sounding tube you can use with that adapter is the E80CC


 
  
 Couldn't agree more, Glenn.
 The E80CC is the very first one I tried (# 3367) as I love that tube in my Garage1217 amps.
 I must admit I was a bit apprehensive about using this adapter but you had encouraged me that it would work with my E80CC in an earlier post -and it really does-perfectly! Thanks again.
 I think F-A should sell two of these adapters with Elise, as being able to use these 12/6V tubes adds a new dimension to Elise's driver complement. 
 As well as the E80CC, I'm particularly impressed with how 12AT7/ECC81 tubes sound in Elise.


----------



## sling5s

I just received a new Elise. Are these stock tubes burned in already? If not, are the improvements big or slight with burn in on these tubes. 
 So far, of course, the ZOTL2-S sounds much more cleaner, clear, detailed and 3D (especially in depth). 
 The Elise sounds veiled in comparison. But again, these tubes have not burned in.


----------



## Spork67

I found my Elise, with the stock tubes, needed 30 - 40 hours to start to shine. I'm not sure if it was just the tubes burning in, or a combination of tubes and amp the other amp. components burning in.
 With "better" tubes it got better again, and most of those better tubes improved further with burn in - length required varied.
  
 For better soundstage and detail the EL3N as drivers are hard to beat, especially teamed with some TS 5998 powers, or with 4 more EL3N's as powers (all EL3N's will need adapters, and using 4 as drivers is not, to me, visually pleasing).
  
 Others have tried a lot more tubes than I have - I currently am very happy with what I have.


----------



## DecentLevi

My friend Stavros (@rosgr63 - _the one who I've bought the recent treasure troves of genuine / rare mint condition power + driver tubes_) has* 19 more* Bendix 6080 NIB/NOS tubes!!!  He has several types, including the astounding slotted graphite / carbon plate ones I mentioned yesterday in this post. Here are some of his actual photos of them:
   
 
_(the two on the right are still available, and the two on the left are the ones I got)_
  
 Anyone interested, just click on the username mentioned above to send him a PM. IMO, these Bendix outdo the GEC 6AS7G's in _some _ways. If you want a good price, just ask nicely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and delivery took only 3 days from Greece.
  
 He also has a treasure chest of 10 more rare / mint condition GEC / Osram / Marconi brown straight and curved base 6AS7G / 1834's, as well as many other gem tubes... just ask and I will post his complete list of available tubes.
  
 * I am doing this only out of respect for his excellent service, not for any profit whatsoever


----------



## connieflyer

Found a back-up for my Raytheon 6080 carbon plates.  Just happened to be from the same seller as the first two. For $20 plus $6.oo shipping it will give me plenty of back-up and a lot of listening pleasure. Thanks again to @UntilThen  for giving me the heads up on these great tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

How do these tubes differ from 6080's?    http://www.ebay.com/itm/351901942615?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> How do these tubes differ from 6080's?    http://www.ebay.com/itm/351901942615?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
  
 6336 has 4.5A heater current, 6528 has 5A. 6080 is 2.5A. Don't use a pair of 6336 or 6528 in Elise.


----------



## DecentLevi

I was also eyeing a pair of 6336 tubes, but as has been mentioned before here those are not compatible with the Elise, using 5 amps.
  
 Also for anyone interested in getting tubes from the above mentioned member rosgr63, he gave me unbeatable prices and also tests the tubes on 1-2 fine machines and can even show you high quality photos of the tubes in the tester. I did two bulk orders from him (one for power and one for driver tubes), and he even gave me free shipping and threw in a couple pairs of perfect condition tubes! Anyone let me know if you want me to post the full list he has available.


----------



## connieflyer

howie13 said:


> 6336 has 4.5A heater current, 6528 has 5A. 6080 is 2.5A. Don't use a pair of 6336 or 6528 in Elise.


 
 Thanks Howie


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Anyway, yesterday a package arrived from Mrs X and I got my first opportunity to try'12V' drivers, my lovely Tungsram E80CC's, in Elise. I put 12V in inverted commas as until the recent posts on this topic I didn't realise that some tubes, conventionally regarded as having 12V heaters, could also work with 6V, using an appropriate adapter.




That convention seems to be prevalent in the Garage1217 threads, which is no wonder since that's what the amp maker calls those tubes. Potentially quite deceptive if you ask me.

It is worth noting that the letter E in ECC81/12AT7 tells us that the tube has a 6V heater. Together the Euro and US type codes reveal that both 6V and 12V are possible.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 Dug out my box of 6DJ8 family tubes:
  
 6DJ8/ECC88 Amperex
 6BC8
 6BZ8/X155
 6BS8
 6BQ7
 6N23P
  
 With my previous amp the 1974 Russian Voskhod 6N23P sounded the best. I tried them now with a four-pack of the EL3N. The sound is beautiful, sweet and detailed; dynamic and quick, but a little light in the bass.
  
 Another con is a hum, not audible with music playing, but it is there.
  




  
  
 Next I tried a pair of GE 6CG7 - wider sound stage and also very nice with the four-pack, but the same issues with bass and hum. And too bright in my system.
  
 Nice, but I miss the glorious mid bass from my EL3N/RCA 6080 combo. YMMV....
  
 BTW, could u imagine a company coming up with the designation 6*BS*8 today?


----------



## 2359glenn

oskari said:


> howie13 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, yesterday a package arrived from Mrs X and I got my first opportunity to try'12V' drivers, my lovely Tungsram E80CC's, in Elise. I put 12V in inverted commas as until the recent posts on this topic I didn't realise that some tubes, conventionally regarded as having 12V heaters, could also work with 6V, using an appropriate adapter.
> ...


 

 These tubes are basically two 6 volt tubes in series making 12 volts. If the heater is wired in series it works at 12 volts. if wired in parallel it is 6 volts.
 The heater is center taped to pin 9 and the heater is pins 4&5 so you can feed 12 volts into 4&5. to run on 6 volts tie 4&5 together and feed the 6 volts
 to 9 and the tied together 4&5.


----------



## DecentLevi

mordy said:


> Hi DL,
> 
> Dug out my box of 6DJ8 family tubes:
> 
> ...


 
 Well then, let the competition begin to see who can find the best miniatuere pairing with those qual EL3N's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




- for me, my 'secret combo' is the Tesla ECC88 + quad EL3N. It turns what was a flabby / slow dark sound with larger driver tubes, to being a mile better than every other combo I've tried including the bottle shaped GEC's... Absolute splendid resolution unfolding itself right in front of you... with my primary descriptor as nothing other than TRANSFORMATIONAL... yet the search continues to find another miniature tube with somewhat better bass definition and less hummm


----------



## mordy

Hmm, did u say hum?
  
 For some reason, all the 6DJ8 family tubes that I have hum in my amp.
  
 If you like the sound, you may want to consider the 6N23P tube - easily available and inexpensive. Some people think that the mid 70's Voskhod tubes are the best.


----------



## DecentLevi

So after trying the Western Electric 421A, Chatham 2399 and Tung Sol 5998 (all 5998 class with similar shape / internals), each with most of the following pairs of driver tubes (except when deemed redundant):
  
- Sylvania 6SN7 3 hole Bad Boys
- Sylvania 6SN7W Short Bottle

- National Union CNU 6SN7 smoked glass
- RCA 6FQ7
- Tesla ECC88
  
The result was overwhelmingly in favor of the *Tung Sol 5998 + Tesla ECC88* combo, with TS 5998 + NU smoked glass in 2nd place for a more laid back sound

  
The sound is fast, crisp, dynamic, clear with fantastic bass definition and great soundstage. All 6SN7 pairings with the 421A and Chatham drivers sounded too veiled / back row, and the RCA 6FQ7 sounded too thin / sweet with all powers. Howie was definitely onto something with his mention of the likes of miniature Tesla ECC88 drivers paired with the TS 5998 powers. The sound is fleshed-out in a good way, full of inner detail, intimacy and realism - and the above mentioned bass definition and hum are fixed here to the 'tune' of 90%. These mini drivers not only have potential with the quad EL3N power setup, but also perform first-class with the likes of TS 5998 powers.
  
Going back to the *Tesla ECC88 + quad EL3N* right after a listen to the above, I'm getting a sound that's at least 40% more "deep into the scene" with more apparent layers, more lifelike soundstage, but notably darker and slower. Both are fantastic with rock / jazz / analogue-ish recordings and simultaneously quite grandiose with electronic music as well... any genre really because they are so immaculately resolving / refined in all ways. Each of these have their own strengths


----------



## DecentLevi

sling5s said:


> I just received a new Elise. Are these stock tubes burned in already? If not, are the improvements big or slight with burn in on these tubes.
> So far, of course, the ZOTL2-S sounds much more cleaner, clear, detailed and 3D (especially in depth).
> The Elise sounds veiled in comparison. But again, these tubes have not burned in.


 
 With you in mind, I've just done an A/B comparison of the stock 6H13C power tubes to my slotted graphite plate Bendix 6080 (shown above in this post); both using the 'bad boys' 6SN7 driver tubes. The differences I noticed were that the Bendix had more hi-fi sounding bass (faster / better definition and not bloated), had better layering and 3D lifelike-ness. Granted I've recently noted preference for other powers, but it just comes down to which flavor you prefer; in terms of soundstage, charactor, etc. Generally these Bendix's do nothing wrong with any genre, and I would be satisfied with them as my only power tubes. IMHO, these are a bit of a paradoxical tube, being some decades old, yet looking very futuristic and having a sound quality that will never be obsolete. I strongly recommend getting these as your first power tubes. And if going with my lead from Stavros listed above, he may be able to give you a price you can't find anywhere else, and they test over 100%.


----------



## mordy

Has anybody been able to compare the Tesla ECC88 to the 6N23P? Something tells me that they may sound very similar...coming from the same family of tubes.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey Mordy and Howie and anyone interested in the mini tubes, I found the PERFECT thread for more info on this, which also places your recommended Voskhod's in the middle of his list:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/761078/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes


----------



## HOWIE13

It's funny, I don't hear any hum from these 9 pin Noval tubes. I wonder if the adapter can make a difference? Mine is the current one from Mrs X.
  
 Anyway, after DL's recent discoveries I must re-listen to my 6DJ8/ECC88 tubes combined with 4 pack again. I think I also have some of the tubes Mordy is recommending, somewhere!
  
 Meanwhile, for the last few hours I've been immensely enjoying the 5998 with mainly Bugle Boy ECC81, and a few other 12AT7 type tubes: Valvo, Orange Globe, Telefunken, Tungsram, Mullard. 
  
 These are all very good. They are also relatively cheap to buy. Mullard warmest, Telefunken coolest, the rest in between, as a very crude guide.
  
 Finally, I mustn't forget to mention my E80CC's (Tungsram and Valvo). These triggered this week's adventure into these 12/6V tubes and are great all rounders, synergising brilliantly with 6080 and 5998 powers. I would imagine they could sound amazing with the GEC's.
  
 As we keep saying, Elise has an uncanny ability to make so many different classes of tube reach great acoustic heights. She must have some amazing auto tube bias circuit.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Has anybody been able to compare the Tesla ECC88 to the 6N23P? Something tells me that they may sound very similar...coming from the same family of tubes.


 
  
 Hi Mordy
  
 From my memory with Garage amps the Tesla has a bit more lower/ mid emphasis and the 6N23P a bit more upper mid/ treble, giving it a bit more openness and airiness, whilst the Tesla has more weight to it's sound. I liked the Tesla for sumptuous grand piano and the 6N23P for flutes and baroque instrumental detail. This was with Garage amps though, and may not apply accurately to Elise.
  
 To be honest, I find the 6N23P tubes a bit complicated. Are there differences between different factories? Then there's the question of the number of getter supports and 'silver' shields. I should have learned Russian to read more about this, and other Russian tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 I just realised from your pictures you appear to be using new EL3N's. These are notorious for taking a while to burn in and I think you will find the bass will open up more and any hum, if you have any, will settle down in time- maybe several months or even a year, depending on use.
 I have new and old used EL3N's of the same Philips type, and there is a difference.
 I think H1 has addressed this issue in previous posts.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> As we keep saying, Elise has an uncanny ability to make so many different classes of tube reach great acoustic heights. *She must have* *some amazing auto tube bias circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Could well be part of the "unconventional" setup Lukasz hinted at many moons ago, and doesn't wish to divulge lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Whatever, _*it works!!!*_


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> @DecentLevi
> 
> I just realised from your pictures you appear to be using new EL3N's. These are notorious for taking a while to burn in and I think you will find the bass will open up more and any hum, if you have any, will settle down in time- maybe several months or even a year, depending on use.
> I have new and old EL3N's of the same Philips type, and there is a difference.
> I think H1 has addressed this issue in previous posts.


 
  
 Hi again H13.
  
 Yes indeed...new EL3Ns certainly do improve quite dramatically over (extended!) time - a case of good, strong used ones being very useful for bypassing this necessity...especially if one is in a hurry lol! (Speaking of which, I firmly believe that any attempt at *mass* trialling and assessment in a relatively short period of time is pretty well guaranteed to skew results to quite a degree...such things need to be done at a fairly slow pace to have any real degree of accuracy and validity...not aimed at you, mon ami! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 Your findings re. new vs used EL3Ns I do believe could well be down to *age* of the tubes, and not just burn-in time. Although yet to be confirmed beyond any doubt concerning performance from the *mesh*-plated (Australian) EL3NG and certain old Valvo EL11, I'm beginning to suspect that all the earliest - ie late '30s early '40s - _*black*_ glass versions just might have the edge over later production. One such _*solid*_-plate Valvo EL11(BG) is leading me in this direction, and hope to get a clearer picture when my pair of 1943 Philips (France) EL3(actually 'N') (BG) eventually arrive...
  
 There is just one slight problem with these really old tubes...a good few seem to have loose bases, and so require great care when using - they *MUST* be secured, either with insulation tape or glue, and I recommend to ALWAYS insert/remove by the base only..*NEVER* pull out by the glass, especially!
  
 ps. Unfortunately, of course, the EL11 has a different base to the EL3/EL3N, so is out of the picture as yet for most folks alas. And if looking for the EL3, one must make sure it is in fact a mis-labelled 'N' version - ie. the real '3' is straight-sided until the top, the mis-labelled one 'bulb' shape.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again H13.
> 
> Yes indeed...new EL3Ns certainly do improve quite dramatically over (extended!) time - a case of good, strong used ones being very useful for bypassing this necessity...especially if one is in a hurry lol! (Speaking of which, I firmly believe that any attempt at *mass* trialling and assessment in a relatively short period of time is pretty well guaranteed to skew results to quite a degree...such things need to be done at a fairly slow pace to have any real degree of accuracy and validity...not aimed at you, mon ami!
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's all very true and helpful.
 Eagerly looking forward to your further evaluations. Hopefully the new iteration of Elise will re-surface soon too.


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> *Bendix 6080WB / Mullard 6080 (CV 2984) / TUNG-SOL 7236 compared*​  ​ Well after much tube-swapping and comparison with several lossless songs that are good for headphone tests, using both my modded HD-650 and modded HP-100 headphones, here are the results in case this could benefit anybody.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I really like my Sylvania 6SN7WGT/TS7236 combination, and don't experience any problem with treble. But that may be due to the considerable difference in age of our respective ears.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I really like my Sylvania 6SN7WGT/TS7236 combination, and don't experience any problem with treble. But that may be due to the considerable difference in age of our respective ears.


 
  
  Sometimes it's advantageous to be older.


----------



## HOWIE13

Am slowly sorting out my 6DJ8/ECC88 tubes to try with 4 pack and came across these.
  
  

  
 Seems EDISWAN was the same as Mazda. Brimar made them too. I thought the print looked a bit 'Brimarish'.
 Anyway it's 6V with 9 pins so I tried it with 4 pack -and it's surprisingly good. I'll test it along with a few others before coming to any conclusion as to how it compares with the likes of Tesla, Bugle Boy, etc.
  
 If anybody knows anything about EDISWAN and /or ECC804 tubes please post. Thanks.


----------



## mordy

Hi H,
  
 A little bit about Ediswan:
  
_*History*
 It is claimed that the technology revolution began at Ponders End. Joseph Wilson Swan made an electric lamp 20 years before Edison and in 1886 the two men formed the "Ediswan Company" in a riverside factory at Ponders End. In 1936 Ediswan supplied valves for the BBC's first public television transmission. Edison Swan Electric Company Ltd. one of the first valve makers in GB (The United Kingdom)Brands: Ediswan, Mazda (there is another brand Mazda in France which is not of Edison-Swan)._
  
Edison and Swan Electric Light Company  From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Edison and Swan Electric Light Company Limited

 _Edison & Swan United Electric Light Company Limited, catalogue and price list 1893, front cover_​ Former type

Limited companyIndustryElectric industryFateMerged to British Lighting Industries Ltd.PredecessorEdison & Swan United Electric Light CompanySuccessorSiemens EdiswanFounded1883FounderJoseph SwanDefunct1964Headquarters 
100 Victoria Street, London
155 Charing Cross Road, London
 
 Key people

James Staats Forbes (chairman)ProductsLamps, radio valves, cathode ray tubesParentAssociated Electrical Industries (1928-1964)
 The *Edison and Swan Electric Light Company Limited* was an English manufacturer of incandescent lamp bulbs and other electrical goods. It was formed in 1883 with the name *Edison & Swan United Electric Light Company* with the merger of the Swan United Electric Company and the Edison Electric Light Company.[1][2]
Joseph Swan had established the Swan United Electric Light Company in the early 1880s to market the incandescent lamp bulb he had invented. In 1882 the British Edison Company of Thomas Edison sued Swan, claiming infringement of Edison's U.S. patent of 1879; however, the lawyers became aware that Swan would be able demonstrate prior research and publication, and instead negotiated a merger with Swan's company.[3] The lamp bulbs manufactured by the company were almost entirely to Swan's design.[4] From 1887 or earlier Sir Ambrose Fleming was an adviser to the company, and conducted research at Ponders End.[5]
 The company had offices at 155 Charing Cross Road, London, and factories in Brimsdown, Ponders End and Sunderland. In 1928, the company was acquired by Associated Electrical Industries. In 1956, a new cathode ray tube plant was opened in Sunderland. The company was renamed Siemens Ediswan following the takeover of Siemens Brothers by AEI in 1957. In 1964, AEI merged its lamp and radio valve manufacturing interests with those of Thorn Electrical Industries to form British Lighting Industries Ltd.[1]
Ediswan Valves Edison Swan (or later Siemens Edison Swan) produced a wide range of vacuum tubes and cathode ray tubes under the names "Ediswan" or "Mazda"[6] and the 1964 Mazda Valve Data Book claimed: "Professor Sir. Ambrose Fleming... was Technical Consultant to the Edison Swan Company at the time. It was this close co-operation between University and Factory which resulted in the first radio valve in the world."[7]
  
It would appear to me that the Ediswan tube label for our purposes existed between 1956-1964.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 When I looked up Ediswan, I plopped in my TS 7236 tubes together with the Voskhod 6N23P (the 7236 is the closest pair I have to 5998). The bass is much better than the RCA 6080s with the Voskies - but not subwoofer territory yet.
  
 A lithe, elegant presentation.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi H,
> 
> A little bit about Ediswan:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great history-thanks M.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi DL,
> 
> When I looked up Ediswan, I plopped in my TS 7236 tubes together with the Voskhod 6N23P (the 7236 is the closest pair I have to 5998). The bass is much better than the RCA 6080s with the Voskies - but not subwoofer territory yet.
> 
> A lithe, elegant presentation.


 
 Yes, lithe is a very good way of describing the 6N23P as I remember them. Any hum with that combo?


----------



## aqsw

Just ordered some Bendex 6080s from rsgr63. My Elise handles 6080s fine along with the stock powers, so I'm looking for a vast improvement over the stocks. Sold my TS5998s as all I got was distortion. 6080s run a little hot, but thats ok. Will be using them with my well burnt in EL3Ns, which I love.
  
 Thanks for the tip DL.


----------



## mordy

Hi H13,
  
 With this combo basically humpfrey - only negligible hum without music at levels that would too loud to listen to.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi H13,
> 
> With this combo basically humpfrey - only negligible hum without music at levels that would too loud to listen to.


 
  
 That's good news. Hum is a weird thing- it sometimes has a mind of its own.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> In 1964, AEI merged its lamp and radio valve manufacturing interests with those of Thorn Electrical Industries to form British Lighting Industries Ltd.




Wikipedia is not correct there _as regards tubes_. The players were largely the same, though.




oskari said:


> Don't get too hung up on brands, guys. The manufacturer and the factory matters, a particular silkscreen does not.
> 
> Ediswan and Mazda (UK) were AEI brands. Thorn bought Brimar from STC in 1960. In 1961 Thorn and AEI merged their tube interests, including CRTs, in a joint venture forming Thorn-AEI. A tube made at the Rochester plant could carry any one of the brands.




Brimar and Mazda were the primary tube brands at this point but Ediswan appeared as well.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Seems EDISWAN was the same as Mazda. Brimar made them too. I thought the print looked a bit 'Brimarish'. ...
> 
> If anybody knows anything about EDISWAN and /or ECC804 tubes please post. Thanks.




So, that is indeed a _Brimar_ tube also known as 6/30L2.

You might find this interesting (by gibosi):



 http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/9645#post_11706738


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> So, that is indeed a _Brimar_ tube also known as 6/30L2.
> 
> You might find this interesting (by @gibosi):
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/9645#post_11706738


 
  
 Thanks Oskari.
  
 Gibosi's description is spot on when he says it's a very nice tube with typical Brimar characteristics: 'very smooth, liquid midrange, clean highs and big bass.'
 .
 I've been listening to it for 2 hours with 4 pack and it's an immersive combination-everything sounds just right-nothing forced or artificial- vinyl-like easy fluidity. Lovely tube, and deserves to be known better.
  
 I'm looking forward to using it with some other power tubes but just now I don't want to change such a captivating, enchanting combination.


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> So, that is indeed a _Brimar_ tube also known as 6/30L2.
> 
> You might find this interesting (by @gibosi):
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/9645#post_11706738


 
  
 And since then, I found what appears to be a GEC-made B729, which was GEC's designation for the 6/30L2 or ECC804. It is a bit too thin and airy to my ears, and I much prefer the Brimar/Mazda version.


----------



## HOWIE13

Here's a song to thank everyone for answering all my recent questions, and thanks to Elise, without whom none of this would exist.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> And since then, I found what appears to be a GEC-made B729, which was GEC's designation for the 6/30L2 or ECC804. It is a bit too thin and airy to my ears, and I much prefer the Brimar/Mazda version.




I should also add that 6/30L2 is a Mazda type code. The design, quite possibly by Mazda, is also earlier than the Mazda/Brimar merger. This could mean that early Mazdas are different from later Brimar-Mazdas. In fact, there is a chance that your B729 was made by Mazda (but could be GEC as well).

(Edit: I should call it MOV.  )


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> I should also add that 6/30L2 is a Mazda type code. The design, quite possibly by Mazda, is also earlier than the Mazda/Brimar merger. This could mean that early Mazdas are different from later Brimar-Mazdas. In fact, there is a chance that your B729 was made by Mazda (but could be GEC as well).


 
  
 Some time ago, I came across a document (that I can't find now) indicating that GEC did in fact make this tube. With that knowledge in hand, I began my search. And once I heard this B729, I was quite sure that it was a GEC. It has that GEC/MOV house sound which is quite unique among British tubes in my experience. On the other hand, the Mazda 6/30L2 in my collection sound very similar to the Brimar 6SN7GT, 13D3, and most similar to the 13D1, which is essentially a 25SN7GT.
  
 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/13d1.pdf
  
 However, to your point, all the Mazda 6/30L2 in my collection have halo getters. While I have seen pictures of this tube with rectangular getters, I have yet to procure one. And it may well sound different than the later ones.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> oskari said:
> 
> 
> > I should also add that 6/30L2 is a Mazda type code. The design, quite possibly by Mazda, is also earlier than the Mazda/Brimar merger. This could mean that early Mazdas are different from later Brimar-Mazdas. In fact, there is a chance that your B729 was made by Mazda (but could be GEC as well).
> ...


 
 I really like the Brimar 13D1 driver tube....Glenn recommended it to me when he built my amp.....I bought a couple of them and find them quite enjoyable.
  
 Price seems to have went up quite a bit now though.


----------



## sling5s

sling5s said:


> I just received a new Elise. Are these stock tubes burned in already? If not, are the improvements big or slight with burn in on these tubes.
> So far, of course, the ZOTL2-S sounds much more cleaner, clear, detailed and 3D (especially in depth).
> The Elise sounds veiled in comparison. But again, these tubes have not burned in.


 

 To follow up, the Elise is really opening up. Very nice. 
 The Zotl2 is kind of fluorescent light presentation while the Elise is more a soft light presentation, more romantic.
 On the HD800, the Zotl2 is still more detailed, layered, open, clean, and blacker background. It just has better micro dynamics, but the Elise seems to have better macro dynamics. Definitely more bass and weight to the music. Music is more rounded, slower, relaxed sounding on Elise than ZOTL2.
 That said, I have never heard the HD800 produce so much bass.
  
 BTW: the price on the EL3N Drivers seem reasonable but the price on TS 5998 seem to be really high.


----------



## mordy

Hi sling5s,
  
 Congrats on your Elise! Based on the experiences of members on this forum, the Elise needs some 150 hours to burn in; the EL3N upwards of 400 hours.
  
 Don't worry, the amp sounds great straight out of the box, but you should expect it to improve, and quite a bit.
  
 No matter what I try, for me the best drivers are the EL3N. I pair them with inexpensive RCA 6080 tubes to get my favorite sound, but not everybody likes them as much as I do - could be equipment dependent (I mainly use the Elise as a preamp w speakers).
  
 The Tung Sol 7236 is a great power tube, and close to the 5998, and not as expensive.
  
 The truth is that almost anything sounds great with the Elise......


----------



## Spork67

sling5s said:


> To follow up, the Elise is really opening up. Very nice.
> The Zotl2 is kind of fluorescent light presentation while the Elise is more a soft light presentation, more romantic.
> On the HD800, the Zotl2 is still more detailed, layered and blacker background. It just has slightly better micro dynamics, but the Elise seems to have better macro dynamics. Definitely more bass and weight to the music. I have never heard the HD800 produce so much bass.
> 
> BTW: the price on the EL3N Drivers seem reasonable but the price on TS 5998 seem to be really high.


 
  
 Don't think of 5998's as being an expense.
  
 Consider them an investment.


----------



## sling5s

mordy said:


> Hi sling5s,
> 
> Congrats on your Elise! Based on the experiences of members on this forum, the Elise needs some 150 hours to burn in; the EL3N upwards of 400 hours.
> 
> ...


 
  


spork67 said:


> Don't think of 5998's as being an expense.
> 
> Consider them an investment.


 

 Thanks.
 I'll see how much burn will do. Than decide about upgrades but I know I will (it always happens). I'll try the EL3N. I'll check the TS7236 also.


----------



## sling5s

How much (percentage wise) does the driver tubes make and how much does the power tubes make.
 I'm hearing that the driver tubes makes more of a difference. Is that right?


----------



## DecentLevi

I previously claimed I heard a slightly bigger difference with the power tubes, only to later discover it was down to extreme differences in sound flavor of pairs I had been swapping... lately I've noticed the driver tubes can also make a drastic difference. Really I'd say it's gotta be 50/50.
  
 And synergy between powers / drivers is important, which is, IMO something that can only be determined based on one's own perception. The general concept of fine tuning the sound between powers / drivers is for example all neutral tubes should pair well, and brighter / faster driver tubes can compensate wonderfully for darker / slower power tubes


----------



## HOWIE13

I was thinking about the differential effects of power and driver tubes only yesterday.
  
 With my LD2/2 it's about 70-80% to the drivers, but with Elise it does seem more like 50/50.
  
 Must depend on the different circuits. Interesting topic.
  
 PS. These ECC804 drivers (with 4 pack EL3N's) have really grabbed me, and won't let go. No more rolling today for me, I suspect.


----------



## Oskari

Bochum:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtd9Bg9S85U[/VIDEO]


----------



## mordy

THIS ONE GOT AWAY:
  
 Take a look at these tubes:
  




  
 These are all 6080 tubes in used, untested condition. The seller cautions that some may not work and offers no guarantees or returns.
  
 In the upper row is a pair of very rare Telefunken 6080 tubes. In the lower row there is a pair of GEC 6080s and a rare Valvo 6080 that could be a GEC or Mullard. The rest are RCA and GE tubes.
  
 This lot came from a German seller with 100% feedback and went for approximately $45 including shipping.
  
 If somebody on the forum bought these I am curious to know how the Telefunkens sound and what the Valvo was.
  
 And I need some advice on eBay sniping tools - somebody snatched it away in the last few seconds.....
  
 Would you take a chance on this lot for around $3/tube? (For me it is a rhetorical question....)


----------



## Spork67

Wow. If just one pair of GEC or telefunkens work that was a great buy for someone.


----------



## Oskari

Those Telefunkens were made by GE and the Valvo by RCA, I think.


----------



## pctazhp

I am so weak. I possess nothing even closely resembling self-discipline.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 A pair of Bendix 6080WB NOS with Slotted Graphite Plates and Copper Grid Posts and a pair of GEC 6AS7G/CV2523/A1834 NIB Brown Straight Bases Cup Getters are on their way from Greece.
  
 I don’t know if I should thank @DecentLevi or send him the bill for my new tubes.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 By the way, @rosgr63 is a true gentleman to deal with.


----------



## DecentLevi

The above being said, here is the current list as of November 16th from Stavros @rosgr63 of his tubes available. If you contact him you'll be treated first class and get rare, pristine condition tubes at unbeatable prices... as follows:
  
1.   Amperex 6AS7G NIB 4pcs _(this may be a 6H13C rebrand)_
2.   Bendix 6080 NIB/NOS 19 17 pcs
3.   Chatham 6AS7G 2pairs, 1 single
4.   Chatham 2399 1pair
5.   Chatham 5998 1pair
6.   ITT 6080 NIB 4pcs
7.   Thomson 6080 NOS          4pcs
8.   MOV A1834/6AS7G NIB  7 5 pcs
9.   MOV 6AS7G  1pair, 1pc
           His note: "MOV are the original makers and are branded Marconi or GEC or Osram"
10. Raytheon 6AS7G NIB 2pcs
11. RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G 3pairs
12. RCA 6AS7G 2pairs 1single
13. Sylvania 6AS7G 1pair 1single
14  Sylvania 6080 NIB 4pcs
15. Sylvania 7236 NIB 4pcs
16. Tung-Sol 6AS7G NIB 2pcs
17. Tung-Sol 5998 3pairs, 1single
18. Tung-Sol 2399 NIB 1pair
19. Tung-Sol 6520 NIB 1pair
20. Tung-Sol 7236 2pcs
21. Western Electric 421A NIB  1pair


----------



## rosgr63

I would like to take this opportunity to  thank Levi who trusted me and introduced me to your wonderful Elise group.
 I am a headphone user since the early seventies and via Head-Fi I have made great friends from all over the world.
 I am also grateful to Phil it has been a real pleasure to talk to.
 Thank you all.
  
 BTW the Amperex are USA made probably by RCA as I can tell from their construction.


----------



## mordy

Want to supercharge your amp?
  
  




  
 Although a 6.3V tube, this triode tube packs 7.5A which will not make it suitable for the Elise. In addition, it has a 7 pin giant base, whatever that means. Just think of it - four of these is 30A and 400W.
  
 But it was fun watching the specs. Atma-Sphere - here I come!
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_7241.html


----------



## pctazhp

Hey @mordy. Very impressive tube. But at my age I have other super-charging priorities than my amp.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> I am so weak. I possess nothing even closely resembling self-discipline.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 And there was I believing you were made of sterner stuff, pct...WELCOME TO THE ADDICTS CLUB!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...WELL DONE!
  
 Really can't wait to hear your impressions of these marvellous tubes, and how they compare to your GEC 6080s. @rosgr63 would appear to be making a lot of people _very_ happy lol...he certainly is a true veteran here. GOOD LUCK to all!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> And there was I believing you were made of sterner stuff, pct...WELCOME TO THE ADDICTS CLUB!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Report will be forthcoming in due time.


----------



## connieflyer

Watching this threesome on ebay now  http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-NOS-CHATHAM-JAN-CAHG-6080WB-6080WA-AUDIO-VACUUM-TUBES-MATCHED-TESTED-/142176170488?&autorefresh=true the two 6080B,s are looking good.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Hi all,

I've read through and searched the thread but couldn't find an answer. I was looking at the Elise, was about to buy it, then the rated spec on power output stopped me cold. 200mA seems rather anemic to me.

Note, I haven't owned a tube amp before - other than the Vali 2, which doesn't quite count imo. Still, with the Espressivo having 400mA out, I'm wondering why so low on the Elise?

With high impedance & low sensitivity headphones, will the Elise match well power wise?

Thanks


----------



## DecentLevi

Still a noob with impedance topics, I'd just say the Elise is a master of mystery (insert better phrase here). It's got a lot of magical tricks up its' sleeve, which have made it actually drive all my medium/high-z cans with far better authority than any other amp I've owned including the Magni, Capella, Ember, and even far better than the Cavalli Liquid Carbon in balanced mode; it actually drove my high-z cans to perfection including the HD-650 and HP-100, and did not pair well with my low-z 'cans - the 32-ohm version of DT-880 anyway. I urge you to try it directly, because this truly seems one of those grey areas that cannot be explained by science alone.


----------



## ProfFalkin

DecentLevi thanks for the reply. It seemed like a silly question with as many here who love their Elise (Elises? Elii?). 

Thanks


----------



## DecentLevi

Also for anyone considering the Elise - I highly encourage you to inquire with Feliks Audio about the newly upgraded version. It has 100% pure silver internal wiring, teflon tube sockets with gold pins, upgraded capacitors / resistors / RCA connectors and aluminum stands under the amp. Nobody outside of F.A. has tried this yet, but all this internal reworking is guaranteed to bring some further refinement - I wouldn't be surprised it the upgraded Elise sounds at least as good as the higher Woo Audio / Eddie Current offerings.
  
@hypnos1 around when will you receive your upgraded Elise?  And do you know what is the approx. pricetag, out of curiosity?


----------



## HOWIE13

proffalkin said:


> @DecentLevi thanks for the reply. It seemed like a silly question with as many here who love their Elise (Elises? Elii?).
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 It's a very good question and somewhere in the mists of time way back, I questioned this output power, but I'm not surprised you couldn't find it- I've no idea, myself, where or when I posted it.
  
 Like you, I have the Vali 2 and I also have Espressivo. Whilst not taking anything away from these two excellent amps, the Elise has more audible power than either of them and will go louder, whilst maintaining authority and control, with loads of headroom to spare.
  
 I've never understood this figure of 200 mW, unless it's into 600 Ohms, with much higher values into lower loads.
  
 Elise has so much magic, logic seems defied. 
  
 I have just bought the 600ohm T1, and the vol knob is never above 10 o'clock, usually 8-9.


----------



## ProfFalkin

howie13 said:


> It's a very good question and somewhere in the mists of time way back, I questioned this output power, but I'm not surprised you couldn't find it- I've no idea, myself, where or when I posted it.
> 
> Like you, I have the Vali 2 and I also have Espressivo. Whilst not taking anything away from these two excellent amps, the Elise has more audible power than either of them and will go louder, whilst maintaining authority and control, with loads of headroom to spare.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this, it helps. 

With solid state amps is all quite easy. Output power, impedance, thd, opamp or no, etc... Tubes are confusing as I can't seem to tell what information to use to base even a general idea from. Sure the end specs are the same as far as the amp as a whole are concerned, but the tubes themselves... Plate voltages, source vs power tubes, what and by how much do tubes amplify, what electrical changes occur from one tube to another, why are there sonic differences between tubes, etc. It's this ignorance that makes me leery of good product vs snake oil.

In the end all I want is a great sounding amp for my Atticus and Eikon, but I'm accustomed to knowing how the electronics gets me there. Know what I mean?

I'll do more reading. 

Thanks for the information regarding your experience with the Elise as it relates to your T1. It was helpful.


----------



## Spork67

I've also used Elise with both high (600z T1) cans and low z ones (TH-x00 - 25 ohm, HE 400i - 35 ohm) and it's driven them all very well.
 The 400i were the "hardest" to drive and I had the voulme between 9 and 10 o'clock with these.
 The others seldom see the volume dial go past the 9:00 o'clock position.
  
 This is with a variety of both driver and power tubes.
 IDK the voltages / amps / current / power behind all this - but I know Elise drives all these HPs with ease.
 I imagine that at full volume Elise would destroy most headphones, and I'm certain she would deafen anyone wearing them.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Also for anyone considering the Elise - I highly encourage you to inquire with Feliks Audio about the newly upgraded version. It has 100% pure silver internal wiring, teflon tube sockets with gold pins, upgraded capacitors / resistors / RCA connectors and aluminum stands under the amp. Nobody outside of F.A. has tried this yet, but all this internal reworking is guaranteed to bring some further refinement - I wouldn't be surprised it the upgraded Elise sounds at least as good as the higher Woo Audio / Eddie Current offerings.
> 
> @hypnos1 around when will you receive your upgraded Elise?  And do you know what is the approx. pricetag, out of curiosity?


 
  
 Hi DL.
  
 Much to my eternal frustration (or should that be *impatience* lol?!!), I'm afraid it will be a short - hopefully! - while yet before I can give proper and full assessment of the new offering...its finalising is on hold due to Boss Man Feliks being ill recently, and it's obviously his "baby", such that no-one else dare touch it just yet!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. So let's all hope and pray he is well soon (if not already LOL!) - primarily for his sake, of course...but also my _sanity!!_





...(I have some very nice mesh-plate EL3NG and EL11 adapted and ready for what I suspect is going to be an _extra_ treat in my new (Special) Elise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I personally am confident that the (substantial IMHO) upgrades will indeed take Elise into even more hallowed territory...but time will tell, of course.
  
 F-A are still undecided as to just how they should eventually pitch this product. As the internals have had to be modified quite extensively, while maintaining the same general layout, a large choice of options as regards particular upgrades would not really be viable - and so more likely is probably 2 (or 3 even) models on offer, priced to match. Unfortunately there's not yet any hint as to these prices...and of course they want to know what my reaction to the final result (which would be the top grade model) will be. So this is still very early days of course...such decisions cannot be made too quickly.
  
 And so I (and *we*) need to be drawing on our reserves of patience once more - but the past couple of years have shown us that what Feliks-Audio send out to us is always well worth the wait LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Will hopefully soon be getting you all green with envy...(at least I have plenty of burned-in tubes ready to go straight in!...).
  


proffalkin said:


> Thank you for this, it helps.
> 
> With solid state amps is all quite easy. Output power, impedance, thd, opamp or no, etc... Tubes are confusing as I can't seem to tell what information to use to base even a general idea from. Sure the end specs are the same as far as the amp as a whole are concerned, but the tubes themselves... Plate voltages, source vs power tubes, what and by how much do tubes amplify, what electrical changes occur from one tube to another, why are there sonic differences between tubes, etc. It's this ignorance that makes me leery of good product vs snake oil.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi PF and welcome to Elise land...not to mention a World where "tubes are confusing" is to put it mildly lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. There is such a wide divergence of opinion even amongst top aficionados on all aspects related to these fascinating creatures that I fear you will be doing FAR more reading than you could ever imagine on this subject. And in fact, the more you do, the more I'm sure you would find yourself going 'round and 'round in ever decreasing circles....GOOD LUCK!!...(but a certain amount of research you certainly _will_ find interesting!).
  
 Suffice to say that by now, enough folks have discovered that this amp exceeds all expectations, even using a wide variety of headphones. Elise has turned out to be one of the most versatile/forgiving amps out there, regardless of price, and certainly punches well above its weight. Good luck, whatever your final choice...


----------



## aqsw

As most people know, I feel I have a lemon.
I have tried TS 5998, Mazdas, etc.
I finally settled on stock powers with El3Ns. I was getting fantastic sound.

I decided to try a tube change on my dac. Phoned Space Tech, who made my dac.
He wants to sell me a super rectifier, but I bought an ipgrade from my 6550s. He took them back. 
OMG. THE DIFFERENCE IS AMAZING. 

The dac upgrade tubes are for me.!!
All I can say is WOW. Seperation, soundstage., and those cymbals are real.

Not going to even look at Elise upgrades anymore.
I know that 99% of the players here have a ss dac, but H1 and I cant be too wrong.


----------



## Spork67

aqsw said:


> As most people know, I feel I have a lemon.
> I have tried TS 5998, Mazdas, etc.
> I finally settled on stock powers with El3Ns. I was getting fantastic sound.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi @aqsw.
 So was your Elise a lemon - or was it the DAC / tubes in DAC all along?


----------



## sling5s

Sorry guys. I guess I'm not.
 I probably burned my in for 20hours or so but I decided I don't need two amps. Pretty happy with the ZOTL2-S so I painfully decided to list this in the for sale.
 I guess if I was into tube rolling like most of you, I would keep it but I'm not. Which is why the ZOTL2-S suits my needs more.


----------



## DecentLevi

aqsw said:


> As most people know, I feel I have a lemon.
> I have tried TS 5998, Mazdas, etc.
> I finally settled on stock powers with El3Ns. I was getting fantastic sound.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can you share any photos of your DAC with the tubes? For me, I'll be sticking with R2R / multibit DAC's which have resolution / lifelike reproduction that no Delta Sigma / Sabre DAC can ever possibly match, with a possible exception of native DSD playback. Which implementation does your use?


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> Can you share any photos of your DAC with the tubes? For me, *I'll be sticking with R2R / multibit DAC's which have resolution / lifelike reproduction that no Delta Sigma / Sabre DAC can ever possibly match, with a possible exception of native DSD playback. *Which implementation does your use?


 
 What objective, scientifically-based evidence do you have to support that broad, unequivocal statement? Even if it is just your subjective opinion, what Delta Sigma/Sabre DACs have you used in your system?


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Can you share any photos of your DAC with the tubes? For me, I'll be sticking with R2R / multibit DAC's which have resolution / lifelike reproduction that *no Delta Sigma / Sabre DAC can ever possibly match*, with a possible exception of native DSD playback. Which implementation does your use?


 
  
 Hmmm, DL...broad statement indeed, as per @pctazhp. Don't forget, as with all other electronic/tube circuits, _*implementation*_ is key. Also, SS DACs have to rely on what may sometimes possibly _not_ be the very best op amps as output stage. In addition, many other factors in one's system will impact upon aspects such as _resolution/lifelike reproduction_ etc. etc. This whole subject is a(nother!) minefield for very bold statements LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## richdytch

proffalkin said:


> DecentLevi thanks for the reply. It seemed like a silly question with as many here who love their Elise (Elises? Elii?).
> 
> Thanks




Very pleased by this grammatical distinction.

On paper the Elise shouldn't drive low-z cans well, but it does. It really does. More things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in specifications.


----------



## DecentLevi

pctazhp said:


> What objective, scientifically-based evidence do you have to support that broad, unequivocal statement? Even if it is just your subjective opinion, what Delta Sigma/Sabre DACs have you used in your system?


 
 While this is more of a subjective opinion, there is also probably much scientific based evidence out there which I am not familiar with as of yet, however my view on Delta Sigma vs. R2R / multibit DAC's matches around 90% of those who have compared any two such units.
  
 The DS (Delta Sigma) DAC's I've used on my current Elise and / or previous amps have been  Modi 1, Creative built-in soundcard in my laptop (unspecified model) and Gustard X12. Of these, the Gustard X12 was clearly superior; notably in terms of smoothness, detail, dynamics and lifelike-ness. However compared to the Bifrost Multibit (Bimby) which was the first R2R (multibit) DAC I've ever owned, the difference was breathtaking, making even my best DS DAC sound brittle / artificial / harsh with glaring metallic-like highs, vs. the R2R DAC in which allowed me to hear more inner detail, improved layering, much larger soundstage and absolutely 0.000000% trace of grainy-ness.... *THIS *my friends, is the R2R experience! So close to life that a distinction between real and recording becomes very thin.
  
 Later I 'upgraded' to the Mimby (Modi 2 multibit). Although it's a smaller and cheaper DAC I personally prefer it to the Bimby for improved dynamics and linearity in exchange for a tad less layering / soundstage. This however is not my end-game... thanks to several brilliant suggestions my attention has shifted to the new *Holo Audio Spring. *HF thread link here. It's an R2R DAC that also supports DSD natively, making it perhaps the first ever to support DSD in R2R mode. It also has an NOS (non-oversampling) mode which is said to sound even better than upsampling. It's extremely comparable to the Yggdrasil (Yggy) and _some _people prefer the Holo Spring, is smaller and a bit cheaper, and its' DSD feature is something it has over the Yggy.
  

  
@Torq my fellow Seattle-ite, I hope you don't mind my quoting this as you have some good points and it seems relevant. Here he discusses much about Gustard X20 (which is the successor of my Gustard X12) and how it compares to other R2R DAC's such as the Yggy and Holo Spring.
  


torq said:


> While the question wasn't directed at me, I have heard both the Gustard X20 and the Holo.  Now, admittedly, I didn't have them back-to-back, but I've listened to the X20 in A/B scenarios with other DACs that I have since compared directly to the Holo and since the Holo beat most of those, and they beat the X20, it's not much of a stretch to say that I'd much prefer the Holo Audio unit over the Gustard.
> 
> _(RE the X20 vs. Vega)_
> 
> This is a combination I *have* tired back-to-back, and I disagree that the X20 competes with the Vega, sonically at least - even given the big price disparity.  In fact, I'd go further, and say there's nothing about the X20 that would compel me to spend even the $850 it costs on it, given the other available options.


 
  


torq said:


> Shame it needs them ... given the "wonder" that the ESS chips are supposed to be, especially with regards to clocks and jitter ...
> 
> And it's not that I find the X20 "too" detailed, it's that the detail is presents isn't "real" ... it's exaggerated ... it's bright rather than actually offering any additional detail.  Things that are relatively easily discerned on other DACs are not audible on the X20, yet the thing still sounds like there's more detail than there really is.  Cymbals, brushes on percussive instruments, reverberation in close-mic'ed strings ... all just sound artificial on the X20.
> 
> ...


 
  


torq said:


> If they're X20 related, there's no point.
> 
> I've said this numerous times before, and I'll say it again ...
> 
> ...


 
  


rajacat said:


> I don't own the x20. I'm shopping for a dac.
> It just that your comments about the x20 seem over caffeinated. They 're  the by far the most negative. I've read many owner reviews that are very impressed with the _stock_ x20 let alone the upcoming version.


 
  


torq said:


> You'll have to explain "over caffeinated" to me ...
> 
> I'm fundamentally pre-disposed towards unjustified hype.  I've auditioned a good number of higher-end DACs in a system that is rather more revealing than most of those that are going to find an X20 at their heart, coupled with four of the six current TOTL headphones (no STAX SR-009 or HiFiMan HE1000 v2) , so I think I have a reasonable basis for dispassionately assessing where things sit in that particular continuum:
> 
> ...


 
  


torq said:


> One other thing ...
> 
> "Owner reviews" are not a good basis for objective evaluation.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I will have the chance to demo the Holo Audio Spring DAC this Saturday (Pacific Time) at a Bay Area meet I'm setting up (check out the staggering lineup of gear here), as well as a host of other DAC's many of which are DS and are custom made DIY projects. So in the coming weeks, time permitting, I just may have an updated opinion on the topic of DS vs. R2R DACs, and which one is the 'new king'.
  
 But of course, this hobby is still a subjective thing. So if your tube DS DAC sounds best to you, then no need for the others that may have some edge over what you have.
@Liu Junyuan feel free to peep in here too.
  
 Finally, here is Torq's list of many of the top DAC's compared including Auralic Vega, Chord products, McIntosh, and of course R2R DACs


----------



## Torq

decentlevi said:


> @Torq my fellow Seattle-ite, I hope you don't mind my quoting this as you have some good points and it seems relevant. Here he discusses much about Gustard X20 (which is the successor of my Gustard X12) and how it compares to other R2R DAC's such as the Yggy and Holo Spring.


 
  
 No issue at all with being quoted.
  
 No chance I'm going to get dragged into any discussion involving "scientific proof" when it comes to personal preferences in the realm of listening to music, either!
  
 People should spend less time worrying about what other people think, and how they justify what they spend their money on, and more time listening to music.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi guys. Just dropping in to see how Elise thread is going. Some of you would probably have work out that I've retired from the thread. It's been one year of sharing this marvellous tube amp. In the early days we have a lot of keen owners sharing their experiences with various tube combinations. At it's peak, this thread hit number 1 or 2 of the most traffic on Head-Fi. Quite a feat, considering this is but a humble tube amp with an equally humble price tag. We do know it's not a humble sound. It's a gorgeous, cherry pickle, warm, thirst quenching tonal spectrum that will leave you wanting for more even after a lengthy listen. Elise does that to you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 It's heartening to see tube rolling progressing at 'break neck' speed unabated, reaching out to the very best of power tubes, such as the GEC 6as7g, Bendix 6080wb, WE421A, the premium 5998. Elise is an affordable tube amp but she is eminently adaptable to tube rolling. It's quite common to see new owners who are hell bend on just one set of tubes, ultimately spending a lot more than they had plan for.
  
 Is it necessary to spend lots on tubes? No. However it would have been fun and enjoyable and addictive. What would I have suggested for a new owner wanting to progress beyond stock tubes? I would suggest tubes that are readily available and sounds good and not sending your banker into a tail spin. I would have suggested EL3N with Tung Sol / Cetron 7236.
  
 I find EL3N as drivers to be the best sound from all my tube rolling. (My ears with NAD d1050 and T1 G1 - yours might differ). It's certainly dominating the sound combination, regardless of the power tubes used. Power tubes does tend to change and influence the eventual sound but in my opinion not as much as if you had gone from a switch of drivers from 6SN7 to EL3N. It is for this reason, I've found EL3N with even affordable RCA 6080 to produce ear inducing orgasms experience. EL3N with Bendix 6080wb sounds amazing as does with 5998 or Chatham 6520. In all these combinations, there's no mistaking Elise sweet sounding euphony and 'dead calm' before the storm experience.
  
 I do apologise that I've not reply to many individual personal mails send to me. Basically Shane has left town. He has ridden off into the sunset. However you shall not be forgotten. Each and everyone of you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There might be the sporadic posts from me every now and then. Meanwhile I wish you every enjoyment with your music and hope that it will bring you calm and peace in an uncertain world we live in today..... and good on you keeping this thread going and alive.
  
 Lastly @hypnos1 here's wishing you the very best with your replacement and upgraded Elise.


----------



## Spork67

Hey @UntilThen - I noticed you had been quiet, and thought you must be on holidays or something.
 This thread sure isn't the same without you, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who misses your daily doses of enthusiasm.
 I want to thank you for the advice you gave (both in-thread and by PMs) to a complete tube rookie.
  
 Hope we hear from you again, at least occasionally.
  
 All the best, wherever you are and whatever you're doing.


----------



## pctazhp

torq said:


> No issue at all with being quoted.
> 
> No chance I'm going to get dragged into any discussion involving "scientific proof" when it comes to personal preferences in the realm of listening to music, either!
> 
> People should spend less time worrying about what other people think, and how they justify what they spend their money on, and more time listening to music.


 

 Hi Torq))
  
 I completely agree with you. I just have difficulty resisting comment when I see a broad statement stated as fact, rather than a report of someone's personal experience.
  
 Cheers)))


----------



## hypnos1

Hey @UntilThen...yet more words of wisdom and encouragement from you - Elise's threads owe you a great debt of gratitude. Along with many others I miss you greatly, my friend, and hope also you will indeed look in on us from time to time. You have definitely earned a good rest from what can surely become somewhat 'frenetic', and actually dominate life to a degree that can be 'less-than-balanced' lol...my better half would most certainly agree with that!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(methinks I could just be in for a pile o' trouble, now Boss Man Feliks is back on track once more and should be finishing off my new baby very soon! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and thanks for your good wishes - I shall try not to make you *too* green with envy!...although I know you are supremely happy already with your own Elise setup...ENJOY...and CHEERS! to you too...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Take good care of yourself, and all the best to you and your family....CJ


----------



## aqsw

spork67 said:


> Hi @aqsw.
> So was your Elise a lemon - or was it the DAC / tubes in DAC all along?


 
 It is the Elise. It doesn't like certain tubes. I was using my Hegel DAC originally and got the same distortion. I just settled on stock powers with EL3N drivers. Now I use my dac for rolling.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 You are too young to retire.....Let's hear from you here and there and thanks for all your contributions. I especially enjoy your clear and concise descriptions of how different tubes sound and your ability to sum up things - thanks.
  
 All the best!


----------



## DecentLevi

Very touching to hear from you UT... and thanks SO much for your semi-departure gift... your mention of the EL3N (drivers) + Tung Sol 7236 (powers).
  
 Great Scott! This has completely outdone the Elise once again! This is level 6 fidelity... I am so absolutely gobsmaccked right now my words are not coming out right as I struggle to find apt descriptions! Endless fidelity... perfection in a box!!! I just came from my previous favorite setup that included quad EL3N (powers) + Tesla ECC88 (drivers), and now I get even better tonality / cohesion / direct-ness and dynamics! And listening with native (100% unprocessed bit perfect mode) DSD plugged into this relic of an amp, it becomes a complete and total transportation device, unyielding out of your head transfixation of time and space - an experience that has got me thinking crazy things like cancelling auditions of $8,000 gear... SERIOUS and TOTAL COMPLETE W.T.F. guys, this simple setup is the REAL, FULL deal!!! WOW!!!
  
 PS I had first tried the EL3N (drivers) + slotted Bendix but this pair was IMO quite dark / slow, and the EL3N + TS 5998 and + GEC 6AS7G but it didn't move me at all compared to this combo!!! This combo is an absolute must try for the Elise (and is cheap too), and he also mentioned  Cetron 7236 which may be a viable alternative.
  
 EDIT: this pairing sounds especially well tuned to 'wake up' the HD-650's so I can't yet guarantee how this pairing will do with other headphones. Further comparison between this and the Quad EL3N + Tesla ECC88 is required, but so far the only edge of the former is a larger soundstage while this is somewhat more resolving / fast / snappy / coherent and brighter. Definitely the best sound I've heard of any at-home rig to date. Also it doesn't take DSD to make this sound good, as good old PCM is sounding divine with this too!


----------



## Spork67

I'd appreciate a link if anyone knows where I can get a cheap duo of TS or Cetron 7236.
 The ones I've found rival the 5998's in price, and I really don't want to fork out that much for another pair of tubes...


----------



## HOWIE13

@UntilThen
  
 I'm very sorry to read you are leaving us.
 I'll miss your vast knowledge and helpful advice. I hope you will, at least, continue to make occasional contributions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I do apologise that I've not reply to many individual personal mails send to me. *Basically Shane has left town. He has ridden off into the sunset. *However you shall not be forgotten. Each and everyone of you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Shane, come back. Come back Shane (((((
  
 Good luck in that sunset my good friend ))))))


----------



## DecentLevi

spork67 said:


> I'd appreciate a link if anyone knows where I can get a cheap duo of TS or Cetron 7236.
> The ones I've found rival the 5998's in price, and I really don't want to fork out that much for another pair of tubes...


 
 My friend @stavros has a pair of Tung Sol 7236, although quite unmatched in internal plate size, so it would probably go for somewhere around $75 - $100 if you want to contact him. He also has apair of Sylvania 7236, but the internals look completely different, so not sure I'd recommend them.
  
 Tung Sol and Cetron are a super high performing tube, and I can guarantee anyone with EL3N's as drivers on the Elise will love these as powers. There's more available here:
 https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236 (just look for the ones with the grey plates)
  
 OTOH, @UntilThen or possibly @MIKELAP or @gibosi or anybody would you mind popping in here to mention any possible sonic differences between 7236 Tung Sol, Cetron and Sylvania? Thanks and happy Thanksgiving for those in the US!


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> OTOH, @UntilThen or possibly @MIKELAP or @gibosi or anybody would you mind popping in here to mention any possible sonic differences between 7236 Tung Sol, Cetron and Sylvania? Thanks and happy Thanksgiving for those in the US!


 
  
 Cetron purchased what were essentially the old Chatham tube lines, including the 6336, 6528 and 7236, from Tung-Sol in 1975. And therefore, the earliest production is generally branded Chatham, and then Tung-Sol after the mid-1950's, and finally Cetron after the mid-1970's. As these were all manufactured in the same factory, I would expect them to sound very similar. But of course, over some 25 years of production, changes in design and construction due to new management, new materials and technologies, as well as feed-back from the field, likely occurred. Whether these changes resulted in sonic differences, I cannot say....
  
 I have a pair of Tung-Sol 7236 manufactured in 1965, that is, before Cetron took over. However, as I prefer the Bendix slotted-graphite 6080WB, the 7236 didn't spend much time in my amp, and as a result I can't remember much about its sound. I also have a pair of Sylvania 7236, manufactured in 1963, but again, as I preferred the Bendix 6080WB, I can't remember much about its sound either...


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks much Gibosi for your expert insight! Yes in fact I do think the Bendix 6080 is generally superior to the 7236 as well when paired with other drivers, however everything changes when you pair the 7236 with EL3N as drivers on the Elise, making the 7236 an astounding performer and superior to all others IMO, due to apparent amazing synergy with these on the Elise.
  
 Anyone else with insight on differences in sound between the 7236 types would be appreciated, thanks


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Thanks much Gibosi for your expert insight! Yes in fact I do think the Bendix 6080 is generally superior to the 7236 as well when paired with other drivers, however everything changes when you pair the 7236 with EL3N as drivers on the Elise, making the 7236 an astounding performer and superior to all others IMO, due to apparent amazing synergy with these on the Elise.
> 
> Anyone else with insight on differences in sound between the 7236 types would be appreciated, thanks


 
  
 The 7236 Sylvanias are quite different from the 7236 T-S. The Sylvanias are very clear, but to me a bit low in musicality. lacking bass and dynamics, compared to the T-S. Over time I found them fatiguing, even with my HD650. They might suit a system that needs brightening up though.
  
 On the other hand I find the T-S 7236 can sometimes overdo the warmth of the lower-mids/bass,- whilst with other tracks they are indeed very good.
 .
 On the whole, for power tubes I still prefer 4 pack, 5998 and some 6080's, for their more transparent and dynamic sound. 
  
 Incidently, all these power tubes work really well with my little wonder driver tubes, ECC804 (6/30L2) and E80CC. Small really can sound big !


----------



## mordy

EL3N + TS 7236 was my favorite combo, but I am enjoying the EL3N + RCA 6080 more now. The 7236 is a little more detailed and clear, but the RCA 6080 has a wonderful mid bass and everything else right as well. (The RCAs are from the late 50's early 60's.)
  
 Haven't found others who prefer my combo, so could be that it is system dependent - YMMV.
  
 Anyhow, if you have budget restraints, the EL3N + the RCA 8060 is the best value in top notch sound. The EL3N should be available for around $25, the required adapters around the same price, and the RCAs can be found from $5 and up.


----------



## doofalb

Excuse my noob question: what online retailer would you recommend for purchasing the EL3N & adapter? Tubeworldexpress has a bunch of 7236, but no EL3Ns. Thanks in advance!


----------



## DecentLevi

doofalb said:


> Excuse my noob question: what online retailer would you recommend for purchasing the EL3N & adapter? Tubeworldexpress has a bunch of 7236, but no EL3Ns. Thanks in advance!


 
Here you go for the link to the eBay supplier we've all been buying from, and IIRC this is the only official outlet for this adapter; from a custom tube adapter aficionado in Hong Kong, though courier systems are slowed a bit these days due to customs issues


----------



## doofalb

Thanks a lot!!


----------



## DecentLevi

Most of us bought the EL3N's from 
 http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/nostubes/nos-tubes-main-page.htm
 click how to order, to email him for a Paypal invoice (Europe seller)
  
 There's also more EL3N's from various eBay sellers. THough IMHO, getting a great sound out of EL3N's is highly dependent on their pairing with select driver or power tubes, the best (as of yet) have been mentioned on these last two pages. 
  
 Are you using these for the Elise, or which amp?


----------



## UntilThen

Riding out of town, my horse kept stopping to look back at the ranch. I need to show my appreciation for all the kind words spoken about me. Thanks for all the wonderful words but you should know that you have all made this a special place. Keep going my friends. Collectively you have shown that this hobby brings out your passions and love for music.
  
 I can't help but chime in about Tung Sol and Cetron 7236. I have both of those in my collection and as far as I'm concerned, they sound the same to me, even though they were manufactured in different decades. Gibosi has given some history to Tung Sol and Cetron. Great sounding power tubes. They rank very near the top of my favourites. The link provided by DL for the Cetron tubes is where I bought mine. They are brand new and should last for a long time.
  
 5998, 7236 and Bendix 6080wb, Chatham 6520 are all great sounding power tubes. GEC 6as7g, GEC 6080 are great tubes too but I don't have those and will not be chasing more tubes.
  
 A word about Bendix 6080wb slotted graphite plates. These are truly special tubes and could easily be my favourite power tubes. However they are rare and expensive. It would be a challenge to find a reasonably new pair now. These have the tightest and most controlled bass. There's great clarity in the treble and mids are superb. Soundstage is one of the best amongst all the non multi power tubes. Instruments separation and micro details are excellent. These are more revealing than the 7236 and has more finesse. That doesn't mean the 7236 is inferior. Just different. 7236 has more molecules or air pockets in it's tonal range. Bendix 6080wb set back is that they need a much longer warm up time and gets hotter like most 6080s. These tubes are solidly constructed and feels it too.
  
 Ultimately a tube is still a tube. As long as it sounds good to you and you're enjoying your music, that's all that matters. My Langley pair of RCA 6080 sounds great for the price.
  
 EL3N with Bendix 6080wb and T1.

  
  
 So long for now.


----------



## mordy

Good to hear from you UT!
  
 Well, all this talk about the 7236 - pulled out a pair of Tung Sols I had not listened to. Ouch! Sounds terrible - distorted, thin sounding. What's going on?
  
 Then I remembered: Patience, PATIENCE.
  
 Who knows, maybe this pair is new and I am waking it up from 57 years of sleep. Cobwebs, sleepy electrons, barium deposits, unwilling anodes and cathodes, grid lock. Poetic, eh?
 And it is running very hot. I have this theory that brand new tubes run hotter until they are burned in - just a hunch, and only referring to 6080/6AS7 family power tubes. No scientific evidence, only a personal, subjective observation.
  
 Turned down the volume on the Elise - it is usually full tilt, being used as a preamp, listening through speakers. A little better, but not good.
  
 Patience.
  
 Directed my attention to my speakers - the sound stage is skewed left. Discovered that I had accidentally moved a speaker and had to adjust the toe-in or whatever it is called.
  
 30 minutes later.....
  
 And Then (or Until Then?): The bass is firming up, the sound gets much better.
  
 Now I recognize the sound signature - a pristine clarity and great bass punch.
  
 Found my bass monster/tympani bass recording and cranked it up. Loud. But alas, my wife came home from work and asked me to shut it off.....
  
 Quote: Honey, why do you have so many of those glass things? Answer: Looking for audio perfection....
  
 Have fun!


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I thought you've use 7236 before and it should have just slot right in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I just need to add to my last post regarding Bendix 6080wb and Cetron 7236. Didn't want to give the impression that the Bendix 6080wb is heaps better than the 7236. I was describing what I hear from the Bendix but the 7236 isn't lacking that much either.
  
 After 2.5 hours of Bendix goodness, I swap to 7236 and I have my confirmation ...  that there's more air, more fluff to the 7236. There's more 'body', more flesh to the tone. Thoroughly enjoyable. Not lacking in details and clarity at all but in this department(clarity and details), the Bendix definitely has the edge.
  
 Now where's my horse.


----------



## Spork67

Mesh plate. Someone please buy this before I do, because then I would start obsessing about finding it a partner: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1x-VALVO-EL3N-ROHRE-GEPRUFT-GUT-MESH-PLATES-VACUUM-TUBE-TESTED-STRONG-/272459021610?hash=item3f6fd2bd2a:gMkAAOSw-0xYNFTG


----------



## DecentLevi

This RCA 6080 looks a bit closer to the 7236's. It is just a different color plate... or does it sound any better than the black plate RCA 6080?

  
 Someone buy this before I do, or at least convince me it sounds bett3er while I'm still drinkin'!


----------



## UntilThen

They are not better than 7236 so I am not going to convince you but you might get a different outcome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However if you must try every power tubes, Langrex has very reasonably price RCA 6080 JAN military spec. They are pretty good sounding at GBP 12 each. I bought a pair from them NEW. Cheaper than your beer. These ones sound similar to those Mordy got for me - those with black lettering. I've no reason to believe the ones that you link sound any different. Perhaps someone with exposure to all variations of RCA 6080 can chime in.
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/262052511340?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## doofalb

decentlevi said:


> Most of us bought the EL3N's from
> http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/nostubes/nos-tubes-main-page.htm
> click how to order, to email him for a Paypal invoice (Europe seller)
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks again! Yup, my Elise should be coming in tomorrow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Can't wait


----------



## pctazhp

For anyone interested, Feliks Audio is having a 10% discount Black Friday sale.


----------



## 2359glenn

decentlevi said:


> Most of us bought the EL3N's from
> http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/nostubes/nos-tubes-main-page.htm
> click how to order, to email him for a Paypal invoice (Europe seller)
> 
> ...


 

 The best sound from a EL3N is using it as the output tube transformer coupled with no driver. Just one EL3N per channel that is it.
 My amp can use a EL3N driving a EL3N but sounds best with no driver and no coupling capacitor.
 With the EL3N amp in single tube mode it sounds better then my 2A3 headphone amp.
  
 This tube just can't be beat.
 Now to build me a EL3N preamp with transformer output and see if it can beat my #26 tube preamp.
 This tube is killing me I am addicted to it and the cost of quality Lundahl transformers has me broke.


----------



## connieflyer

FA's black friday also has the 20% off their new headphone stand. The 6080wb graphiite plate tubes that I have are Raytheon, and I have to agree that these are the best combo that I have heard with the El3N in the Elise. I have no idea if the Raytheon sound different from the Bendix using Senn 800 phones the impact of these tubes has made me put away my 6 pack El3n's for now. A big thank you to @UntilThen for putting me on to these tubes awhile back.  Best lead I have had, his advice and camaraderie will certainly be missed.  Nice level headed advice delivered in a fair and honest way. We need more voices like his. Be looking for him to pop in now and then.   Thanks Matt.


----------



## mordy

Hi 2359glenn,
  
 Hope you don't mind a question from somebody who knows nothing about designing tube amps (and nothing about electronics either):
  
 Would it be possible to build the EL3N amp with two tubes using Chinese made transformers? Would the sound be very different or much worse?
  
 It seems to me that there may be a significant cost saving if this was possible, and perhaps the sound would not be significantly degraded.
  
 What is your opinion on true mesh plates?


----------



## UntilThen

2359glenn said:


> The best sound from a EL3N is using it as the output tube transformer coupled with no driver. Just one EL3N per channel that is it.
> My amp can use a EL3N driving a EL3N but sounds best with no driver and no coupling capacitor.
> With the EL3N amp in single tube mode it sounds better then my 2A3 headphone amp.
> 
> ...


 
 You're taking EL3N to another level Glenn. 
  
 It's good to see a tube amp designer exploiting EL3N to it's full potential.
  
 For us simple folks here, EL3N as strapped triode drivers sounds very good. I have a drawer full of drivers - Mazda 6N7G, Mullard ECC31, Valvo C3G, 6SN7s that's not getting any playtime because I'm just using EL3N mainly.
  
 Tell me Glenn... does EL3N sound like a 2A3 tube? Even with your current design... EL3N driving EL3N... Sakuma style.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> FA's black friday also has the 20% off their new headphone stand. The 6080wb graphiite plate tubes that I have are Raytheon, and I have to agree that these are the best combo that I have heard with the El3N in the Elise. I have no idea if the Raytheon sound different from the Bendix using Senn 800 phones the impact of these tubes has made me put away my 6 pack El3n's for now. A big thank you to @UntilThen for putting me on to these tubes awhile back.  Best lead I have had, his advice and camaraderie will certainly be missed.  Nice level headed advice delivered in a fair and honest way. We need more voices like his. Be looking for him to pop in now and then.   Thanks Matt.


 
 Hello CF how are you doing? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Glad you're loving the 6080wb. Did you managed to snag another cheap pair?
  
 Your Raytheon 6080wb is essentially a Bendix non slotted 6080wb. Pretty much similar to this Tung Sol branded 6080wb. Similar robust construction to the Bendix slotted 6080wb. I have every reason to believe they sound just as good. Some are branded Chatham.

  
 What I have is a visually non identical pair. Pretty close but not quite. More importantly I don't hear any disparity between the 2. I hear a perfectly merged stereo image. The left tube has a steel rod and a completely flat rectangular plate. The right tube has copper rod and the plate is a bit rounded at the edge. Both has red lettering or what they call the Redbank variety. You can see the slots in the middle of the rectangular plates.


----------



## UntilThen

This new pair sold for $260 in 2014. Certified genuine boxes.


----------



## connieflyer

I did not get a pair, the seller I got the first pair from had one more single from the same equipment batch so I purchased it as a spare. All three tubes are identical construction and all work and to my ears switching all in and out of the amp they all sound the same . Copper rods on all three


----------



## mordy

There is a tube collector in Greece that is selling off his collection and he may have some Bendix 6080 tubes left for sale.
  
 You can send a PM to rosgr63.
  
Very nice person to deal with - DL and pct bought from him as well as me (haven't received my tubes yet).


----------



## DecentLevi

Looking forward to reading you guys's impressions once you receive his tubes. however I would strongly recommend never to post anybody's email address on any public forum, as that can leave them vulnerable to spam intrusions / bots


----------



## mordy

Thanks for the info DL - changed my post to read head fi PM address - OK?


----------



## angpsi

Hello everyone,
  
 Just wanted to say thanks for all your posts, which made me take the plunge into a fully spec'd Elise. Lurking and going through all the relevant threads for almost a month now, I felt compelled to acknowledge your contribution to my decision. Coming from a speaker system (ATC SCM20SL / ATC SIA-2 150 Integrated amp / Krell MD20 transport / Benchmark DAC1 / Kimber & VDH cables), I'm very exited to see how the amp rises up to it's hype through my [also newly acquired] Sennheiser HD600s.
  
 I can also attest that Lukasz was wonderful all the way until my final decision, so my experience so far has been consistent to everyone else's who's been through the process. Those of you who are still debating on a Feliks amp, there's a Black Friday 10% off  until Sunday, 10pm CET.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Now where's my horse.




Somebody hide his horse now! (And thanks if you already did.)


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> There is a tube collector in Greece that is selling off his collection and he may have some Bendix 6080 tubes left for sale.
> 
> You can send a PM to rosgr63.
> 
> Very nice person to deal with - DL and pct bought from him as well as me (haven't received my tubes yet).


 
 Mordy:  This morning I picked up my package from the post office. Both the Bendix 6080WAs and GEC 6AS7Gs arrived in pristine condition. I have never received tubes from any other seller packed as well as these were. And Stavros is more than fair in his pricing.
  
 I have only spent a little time listening to both pair, but already I am thrilled. Will report in detail after I have a chance to burn them in and spend a lot more time listening.
  
 I will say that the internal construction of the Bendix tubes is the coolest looking of all the tubes I own.
  
 Good luck with your delivery)))


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> Somebody hide his horse now! (And thanks if you already did.)


 
 You can lead a horse to the sunset, but can't keep him away from HeadFi


----------



## 2359glenn

mordy said:


> Hi 2359glenn,
> 
> Hope you don't mind a question from somebody who knows nothing about designing tube amps (and nothing about electronics either):
> 
> ...


 

 In a tube amp with output transformers the transformers are the most important part.
 It might sound good but not the full potential the EL3N's are capable of.
 You would need single ended transformers with 7,000 ohm primary and 32 ohm secondary with a 50ma air gap. 
 32 ohms is best for head phones.
 Don't know if this available from China


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to say thanks for all your posts, which made me take the plunge into a fully spec'd Elise.


 
 Hi angpsi, welcome to the land of tube amp aficionados. Congrats on a fully spec'd thoroughbred. Just don't lose it.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Mordy:  This morning I picked up my package from the post office. Both the Bendix 6080WAs and GEC 6AS7Gs arrived in pristine condition. I have never received tubes from any other seller packed as well as these were. And Stavros is more than fair in his pricing.
> 
> I have only spent a little time listening to both pair, but already I am thrilled. Will report in detail after I have a chance to burn them in and spend a lot more time listening.
> 
> ...


 
 Ok Pct. Clear the in-box of everything. We want an in-depth review of those nuggets. With photos...


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Ok Pct. Clear the in-box of everything. We want an in-depth review of those nuggets. With photos...


 

 I've put my horse out to pasture for the next few days and will get started immediately


----------



## 2359glenn

untilthen said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > The best sound from a EL3N is using it as the output tube transformer coupled with no driver. Just one EL3N per channel that is it.
> ...


 

 I run them strapped as triode tried it as pentode in the output stage to get more power. More power but didn't sound that good so will never try that again.
 Triode strapped driver to triode strapped output sounded great. But leaving out the driver and going straight into the output sounds best.
 Maybe leaving out the coupling capacitor is what made it sound better. And with a gain of 20 is enough gain to leave out the driver just have to turn up
 the volume control further and that is better anyway leaving out most of the volume control.
  
 I think the EL3N beats my 2A3 headphone amp EL3N driving EL3N and single stage that is the best.
 But it could be I am using better output transformers now is why it sounds better.
 Plus 2A3s are expensive and a tube that costs $20 sounds as good is a no brainer


----------



## UntilThen

2359glenn said:


> I run them strapped as triode tried it as pentode in the output stage to get more power. More power but didn't sound that good so will never try that again.
> Triode strapped driver to triode strapped output sounded great. But leaving out the driver and going straight into the output sounds best.
> Maybe leaving out the coupling capacitor is what made it sound better. And with a gain of 20 is enough gain to leave out the driver just have to turn up
> the volume control further and that is better anyway leaving out most of the volume control.
> ...


 
 That's quite a revelation that both your variations of EL3N tube amps is better than your 2A3 headphone amp. Agree that the best of 2A3 tubes are expensive. EL3N tubes currently are now just a fraction of the cost. Obviously the better transformers that you're using plays a big part in it. Not forgetting the implementation of it... the designer's touch.
  
 What I am trying to ascertain is whether EL3N tone has any similarities to 2A3. I have read lots of impressions of the DNA Stratus 2A3 base tube amp. My take from that is that it is a BIG sound.  It has a larger dimension than 6SN7. The whole tonal range take on a larger dimension. It's like moving from a 4 bedroom suburban home to a 10 bedroom country Manor with 5 bathrooms. That's my impression going from 6SN7 to EL3N.
  
 This reviewer http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/1108/ states that his gold standard is 2A3 but that the EL3N is very close. Hence my hunch is that the EL3N's tonal characteristics has some similarities with 2A3. Not having heard 2A3, I wouldn't know for sure.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I've put my horse out to pasture for the next few days and will get started immediately


 
 If you put your horse to pasture for too long it will look like this
  

  
 instead of this

  
 so don't take too long.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> So your setup looks something like this, f-r?...........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi @*hypnos1 *(or anyone else for that matter), are these the "upgrade" driver tubes that Feliks offer on their website? What's the difference between those and these ones? Sorry if I'm asking a newb question, it's only because I _am_ one (who's just ordered such an upgraded Elise). 
  
 Thanks,


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Hi @*hypnos1 *(or anyone else for that matter), are these the "upgrade" driver tubes that Feliks offer on their website? What's the difference between those and these ones? Sorry if I'm asking a newb question, it's only because I _am_ one (who's just ordered such an upgraded Elise).
> 
> Thanks,


 
  
 Hi angpsi...and welcome to the Club! - good choice on the amp!
  
 Afraid I can't comment on the PsVane upgrade as I'm not sure exactly which tube F-A refer to. If it's the 'plain' 6SN7, then I'm afraid it isn't the same as the ones I was referring to - those are the "CV181 TII"...quite a different animal, I suspect.
  
 I would suggest getting confirmation from them and perhaps ask them their own findings on this tube compared to the Tung Sol...unless anyone else here has listened to them...
  
 Best wishes for your future enjoyment as an Elise owner - you won't be disappointed. Hope you can find the time to browse this thread, and perhaps the other two I myself started a while back now lol!..but a bit at a time might be a good idea!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...plenty of good advice to be found! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CJ


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Just wanted to say thanks for all your posts, which made me take the plunge into a fully spec'd Elise. Lurking and going through all the relevant threads for almost a month now, I felt compelled to acknowledge your contribution to my decision. Coming from a speaker system (ATC SCM20SL / ATC SIA-2 150 Integrated amp / Krell MD20 transport / Benchmark DAC1 / Kimber & VDH cables), I'm very exited to see how the amp rises up to it's hype through my [also newly acquired] Sennheiser HD600s.
> 
> I can also attest that Lukasz was wonderful all the way until my final decision, so my experience so far has been consistent to everyone else's who's been through the process. Those of you who are still debating on a Feliks amp, there's a Black Friday 10% off  until Sunday, 10pm CET.


 

 Thanks @hypnos1, As I mentioned in the quoted post, going through your numerous contributions here and in all the other relevant threads was partly the reason I went for Feliks; and for that matter, the Elize over the Espressivo!
  
 I did write to Lukasz just before I posted here. Given my experience so far I expect him to reply promptly. Indeed I'd find it too far fetched to offer an $290 pair of valves for the $126 price difference of the upgrade. But I haven't managed to find another PsVane driver available for the purpose, let alone one that would match the price difference of the upgrade.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Thanks @hypnos1, As I mentioned in the quoted post, going through your numerous contributions here and in all the other relevant threads was partly the reason I went for Feliks; and for that matter, the Elize over the Espressivo!
> 
> I did write to Lukasz just before I posted here. Given my experience so far I expect him to reply promptly. Indeed I'd find it too far fetched to offer an $290 pair of valves for the $126 price difference of the upgrade. But I haven't managed to find another PsVane driver available for the purpose, let alone one that would match the price difference of the upgrade.


 

 Welcome to the club. It is very exclusive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 From all I have seen, very few order the Elise with the upgraded driver, and from what little I can remember I don't think I have heard particularly positive comments about the upgrade. Some even order the Elise without any tubes.
  
 Keep in mind that manufacturers have to offer stock, or even upgraded, tubes that are readily available to them. That usually means they have to be current production tubes, which are not necessarily the best.
  
 Many of us have found that the relatively cheap EL3Ns work very well as drivers in the Elise and mate well with a number of power tubes. Power tubes in the Elise don't amplify current. Only voltage. I guess in a way they substitute for output transformers.
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## angpsi

Thanks @pctazhp! I have followed most of your comments rigorously and see your point. In all honesty, the thought of ordering the Elise without any tubes never crossed my mind! On the other hand, having no consistent experience with tube amps left me wanting for a point of reference. In that context I thought it might as well be the manufacturer's recommendation. According to Lukasz,


> _"We looked long time to find a worthwhile upgrade of the stock Tungsol 6sn7 and decided to go for the psvane - it provides even more stage details, seems very reliable (and consistent in performance) and is a well regarded tube. I would agree, if you can go "expensive" go for psvane especially now when the rebate is available." _(personal communication)


 
  
 So far my only experience comes from speaker systems: my own, as well as others that I've listened to from time to time on various occasions and circumstances. Valve amps always scared me because the only time I found myself really enjoying them was with exceptionally exotic designs (e.g. Lamm, Audio Research, etc.). I've long wanted to test the waters with headphones, and this setup is meant to be my crossing over to personal listening land.
  
 On a different note, my original ticket came from finding a pair of used HD600 at good price, which I knew to be a classic reference and notoriously able to scale up. Having suffered the same with my ATCs, I knew that I would eventually have to shell out a substantial amount of money for a substantial product. The Elise is meant for me to be a point of reference by this scope as well. I opted for the 'upgraded' model because of the rebate. Perhaps I got a bit more enthusiastic than sensible.
  
 Given the circumstances I'd be happy to receive more advice, now that I'm all in!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> The Elise is meant for me to be a point of reference by this scope as well. I opted for the 'upgraded' model because of the rebate. Perhaps I got a bit more enthusiastic than sensible.
> 
> Given the circumstances I'd be happy to receive more advice, now that I'm all in!


 
 Hello angpsi, now that you're in and have ordered the upgraded model with Psvane drivers, I'd say just wait for Elise to arrive and be surprised by it. You have the amp and headphone. What source are you planning on using for your Head-Fi setup? 
  
 You'll be the first to get the upgraded drivers. There might be others but I have not seen anyone share it here. Do post a picture of it to share.
  
 My advice is to take it slow with tubes. Just enjoy and get use to a tube amp for a start. I don't think you'll be disappointed with Elise and HD600. It's a great combination.
  
 Some photos to keep you entertained while you wait. Gorgeous sound. Most tube combinations sound good in Elise but I'll still recommend EL3N and 7236.
  
 Mullard ECC31 and Bendix 6080wb

  
 Sylvania 6SN7wgt and Bendix 6080wb

  
 Philips EL3N and Tung Sol 7236
  
  
 I'm using EL3N and 5998 this morning. This combo is what I call the benchmark a while back and it still sounds really good. Enjoy.


----------



## UntilThen

doofalb said:


> Thanks again! Yup, my Elise should be coming in tomorrow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Kind of miss this post. Some check list for you doofalb before you start listening to music with Elise.
  
 Do some stretch exercise because once you sit down to listen, you're unlikely to get up again for the next 24 hours. Get a full glass of your best red wine. Your body needs the warm up in tandem with the tubes heating up. Lastly lose the shoes. Your toes needs room to be tapping. 
  
 Enjoy and don't forget to tell us your experience.... and don't finish the whole bottle of red.
  
 And don't forget to play this song and sing like Phil Colins


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> Mesh plate. Someone please buy this before I do, because then I would start obsessing about finding it a partner: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1x-VALVO-EL3N-ROHRE-GEPRUFT-GUT-MESH-PLATES-VACUUM-TUBE-TESTED-STRONG-/272459021610?hash=item3f6fd2bd2a:gMkAAOSw-0xYNFTG


 
  
 Hmmm, S67....not too sure about this tube. "Tested strong" hardly seems correct when 100% for this family normally runs at about *36*mA. So this one @22mA is not much above 15mA _*minimum*_ good...ergo...???!! (Would expect 36+ to be "strong" lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). Hence it hasn't been snapped up as of yet!!
  


doofalb said:


> Thanks again! Yup, my Elise should be coming in tomorrow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 And a hearty welcome to our club goes to you also, doofalb. Neither can *we* wait...for your own impressions lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but take your time, of course...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## angpsi

Thanks @UntilThen, I needed that! I'll be sure to post pics when the Elise gets in my hands, it's the least I can do!


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Hello angpsi, now that you're in and have ordered the upgraded model with Psvane drivers, I'd say just wait for Elise to arrive and be surprised by it. You have the amp and headphone. What source are you planning on using for your Head-Fi setup?
> 
> You'll be the first to get the upgraded drivers. There might be others but I have not seen anyone share it here. Do post a picture of it to share.
> 
> ...


 
  
 As usual UT, your guidance is based upon studied, consistent and realistic assessments...most welcome indeed LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(glad you haven't deserted us!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 On the subject of the EL3N, I feel the need to make a couple of personal observations re. their use in (our)OTL vs Transformer-Coupled (as per Glenn's version) amps.
  
 1. As Glenn has mentioned - and is generally accepted - for the latter to avoid output trafo "distortion" of old, compared to OTL, they need to be of very high quality and usually also highly priced...(Glenn's Lundahls are in about the $1000 region, I believe).
  
 2. The EL3N's _tone_ will also be determined by the particular transformer used and fixed at that, of course....for better or worse!! With OTL power (output) tubes acting in place of the trafo, there is in fact much greater versatility - we can tailor the final sound to our individual preferences simply by trying different tubes...which can also be very useful for matching different types of headphone.
 This has been further verified by the new owner of Glenn's EL3N amp, who has stated an actual preference for his OTL amp over the transformer-coupled EL3N when using _*high-impedance*_ cans...
  
 And so as usual, this whole subject is far from cut-and-dried methinks!...and certainly hasn't convinced me of the need to go transformer-coupled - _*especially*_ being in possession of the T1s lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(which I suspect would also go for the HD800!).


----------



## connieflyer

Speaking of one who has had the T1 and the 800 they both sound fantastic on the Elise. Nice to see the three Geniuses back at work on this thread. Welcome back UT.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Well, I pulled the trigger on the Elise.  Couldn't pass up that Black Friday sale.   Thanks all!


----------



## UntilThen

proffalkin said:


> Well, I pulled the trigger on the Elise.  Couldn't pass up that Black Friday sale.   Thanks all!


 
 Wow Elise is still selling like hot cakes. It's time to renegotiate my commission with Lukasz. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 You won't be disappointed ProfFalkin. Always wonder how people come up with their sign-on name. Mine is pretty self explanatory. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Here's a combo to get you excited. Holy .... I forgot how potent this sound is. It's ALIVE.


----------



## hypnos1

proffalkin said:


> Well, I pulled the trigger on the Elise.  Couldn't pass up that Black Friday sale.   Thanks all!


 
  
 WELL DONE! PF...looks like this thread will soon be _extremely_ busy with newfound joy...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(no wonder my new revision amp is taking a while...F-A are REAL busy lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...Could it soon be Christmas, I wonder?!!! ...CHEERS!...


----------



## ProfFalkin

untilthen said:


> Wow Elise is still selling like hot cakes. It's time to renegotiate my commission with Lukasz. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> You won't be disappointed ProfFalkin. Always wonder how people come up with their sign-on name. Mine is pretty self explanatory.
> 
> Here's a combo to get you excited. Holy .... I forgot how potent this sound is. It's ALIVE.


 My usual name was taken, actually. I had the TV on in the background, and the movie War Games was on. The old Matthew Broderick film. So, yeah...

How about a nice game of chess?

Looks like a nice setup in that pic! I'm excited for my Elise!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Welcome to the club. It is very exclusive
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It's not helping. We're still waiting on the nuggets review. Don't burn those power tubes too long. They have a finite lifespan. Every minute gone is gone. You can't unburn it.


----------



## pctazhp

Due solely and exclusively to the impatience of @UntilThen, this is my report on my new Bendix 6080WB and GEC 6AS7G tubes. I will also compare them to my GEC 6080 pair.
  
 Anything I say in this post is strictly my own experience with my system. The same EL3N drivers were used throughout my listening sessions. I listened to a broad range of music (all of which sounded wonderful with all three tubes). But my final ranking was solidified using a Shania Twain album I am very familiar with.
  
 I have been listening to these three pairs much of yesterday and all day today. I don’t know if it is my lack of patience, short attention span, old ears, growing hatred of rolling and trying to rank tubes, or who knows what. But any attempt by me to detect significant differences in SQ between these three truly wonderful tubes is almost pointless. They all sound wonderful and enjoyable. They are well integrated in frequency range from bottom to top, dynamic, display pinpoint imaging, are emotionally engaging, demonstrate little in the way of “electronic artifacts” and are organic and natural. Nonetheless, I’m going to do my best to rank them and explain my ranking
  
 If UT were standing next to me with a shotgun demanding I rank them in order of preference, it would be:
  
 1. GEC 6AS7G. This is a truly marvelous tube. Anything positive you have ever heard about it is probably spot on. It is so clean and uncolored it almost defies description. If money is no object, and you can find a good pair, I would have no hesitation recommending you grab the pair immediately.
  
 2.  Bendix 6080WB with slotted graphite plates, and copper grid posts. I absolutely love this tube. It is heavy and substantial. As soon as you pick it up you know it means business. The interior construction is reminiscent of a modernistic period when buildings were over-engineered and proudly displayed their solid steel construction. When I first looked inside I half expected to see Batman straddling the great Gotham City. I can easily imagine some who would reverse my ranking with the GEC6AS7G.The Bendix have an emotional appeal that is intoxicating, probably due to their strong and controlled base.They are very close to the GEC6AS7Gs in quality and character of sound. It just doesn’t seem to me it gets it quite as “right” as the GEC.
  
 3.  GEC 6080. This is certainly a “poor man’s” GEC6AS7G. It isn’t quite as clean and just a tad colored. But it is a highly satisfying tube. Perhaps because of its slight coloration it may be the most “organic” of the three tubes. It may add a little more even-order harmonic distortion than the other two tubes. That seems to cause a small problem with the HD800S, which itself adds a small amount of second order distortion to beef up the bass. The integration of bass with the rest of the frequency range isn’t quite ideal. The GEC6080s aren't quite as clean as the other two tubes. But, all in all, it is a very fun tube.
  
 If someone happened to own one of the three, I don’t think I could recommend spending a lot of money for either of the other two, unless money is no object and one has tired of collecting stamps or coins and has moved on to tubes.
  
 If UT wants to visit me for Christmas and bring his T1 headphone with him, he is certainly welcome, Maybe he could make sense out of all this.
  
 In hopes this will calm both UT and his horse for the next day or two, I do want to spend some additional time listening and comparing my 7236s, TS6520s and TS5998s. I doubt any of them will displace the tubes I have put in the top 3. I’m almost certain the 5998s will end up at the bottom. The other two I’m just not sure.
  
 One final comment. Do any of these tubes transport me to terrestrial heights of pure pleasure hitherto unknown? The answer is no. Only my wife can accomplish that……….when she thanks me for taking out the garbage. Do they recreate live performances in my living room or inside my head? No. I don’t think I’ll live long enough to experience that. But, in my not-so-humble opinion, I believe they push the Elise to the summit of its performance. Progress beyond what magic these tubes can perform with the Elise probably rests with the anticipated Elise 2 or with Glenn’s new EL3N amp or some other much more expensive amp..
  
 More to follow)))


----------



## UntilThen

Just when Shane found his horse, your review came out. Whilst reading your review, horsey glance a passing mare and ran off with it - rats ! So until a replacement camel comes along, you've to put up with Shane sequel 2.
  
 Your findings correspond with Nick's 2012 rankings. I will agree that the top level power tubes sound very good. Personal preferences and musical taste will influence one's choice in their rankings. However it is interesting to note your assessment is done with HD800S, a very good choice for this exercise.
  
 Long term usage will confirm your findings but 1st impressions are usually a good indication. With all the good tubes at your disposal, you should have no problem picking the tubes for the occasion. Yeah don't forget 5998, 7237 and Chatham 6520 plus all the drivers that you have. It will be one colourful Christmas tree this year.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pctazhp said:


> Due solely and exclusively to the impatience of @UntilThen, this is my report on my new Bendix 6080WB and GEC 6AS7G tubes. I will also compare them to my GEC 6080 pair.
> 
> Anything I say in this post is strictly my own experience with my system. The same EL3N drivers were used throughout my listening sessions. I listened to a broad range of music (all of which sounded wonderful with all three tubes). But my final ranking was solidified using a Shania Twain album I am very familiar with.
> 
> ...




That is the most vivid description of the Bendix's physical impression I have read and can relate to your description 100%. I never tire of looking at that tube. Haha. 

Were there any early 20th century buildings you had in mind?


----------



## UntilThen

I'll take a punt and say that this is the building he had in mind. This looks like a Bendix. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Chrysler Building


----------



## DecentLevi

So today I really put the Elise through the paces at a local meet-up. Unfortunately it's barely any comparison to the likes of the $4,000 - $6,000 solid state and tube amps I compared with it back-to-back, which far exceeded the technical ability of the Elise, mainly in terms of slam / realism - yet she is quite the bang for the buck and can compete nearly with the Zana Deux with the right tubes.
  
 Also when comparing the sound of the Elise with EL3N drivers + 7236 powers against the summit-fi solid state amp GSX MK II, it was revealed by an insider with extremely analytical hearing that this combo is actually somewhat sibilant and dark. I confirmed his notion against the solid state amp, so I can say that that pairing is still good depending on your preferences or with certain albums - though I'm still fine tuning my Elise sound with more miniature tubes coming in as drivers to pair with quad EL3N as powers, which actually has a few sonic advantages over EL3N as drivers _(on the Elise)_.
  
 Here are the impressions of my main highlight of the day and also discussing the Elise, with a rig costing only $11,400.00
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/810065/holo-audio-spring-r2r-dac/420#post_13041246


----------



## louisxiawei

Hey guys,
  
 Hope you are enjoying your weekend and the Elise. 
  
 Just out of curiosity, do you know the power consumption of the Elise?
  
 Moreover,  Since recently, there is an effective fuse released called HIFI-tuning supreme3, also want to check it out whether it will improve the Elise or not. Do you know the fuse type of the Elise?
  
 Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Spork67

louisxiawei said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Hope you are enjoying your weekend and the Elise.
> 
> ...


 
 I had Elise plugged into a power-board with my PC and monitor and IIRC I was seeing around 80w extra draw.
 Haven't tried measuring Elise on it's own.
 "Hi-Fi" fuses are (IMO) snake oil. Maybe a 10' long cable made of one material vs another would make an audible difference - but 1"... Either electricity gets through it or it doesn't. I can't see it making even a measurable difference using sensitive instruments,let alone an audible diffeerence/


----------



## UntilThen

*Tuning fuse? *


----------



## Oskari

louisxiawei said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Hope you are enjoying your weekend and the Elise.
> 
> ...







untilthen said:


> *Tuning fuse? *







oskari said:


> I entirely agree with UT.
> 
> However:
> 
> ...


----------



## louisxiawei

spork67 said:


> I had Elise plugged into a power-board with my PC and monitor and IIRC I was seeing around 80w extra draw.
> Haven't tried measuring Elise on it's own.
> "Hi-Fi" fuses are (IMO) snake oil. Maybe a 10' long cable made of one material vs another would make an audible difference - but 1"... Either electricity gets through it or it doesn't. I can't see it making even a measurable difference using sensitive instruments,let alone an audible diffeerence/


 
 Thanks for the information, Spork67. 
  
 The difference is somehow real when put the HIFI tuning fuse into Sbooster BOTW linear power supply. But I will check them out whether it's true or a snake oil sometime next month. Some users' review are quite consistent when replacing them in sbooster linear PSU. Even the engineer from Sbooster confirms that.
  
 Thus I'm curious whether it will also have some impact on the Elise. I do hope it will make no difference. Good for my wallet.  Thanks again.


----------



## pctazhp

liu junyuan said:


> That is the most vivid description of the Bendix's physical impression I have read and can relate to your description 100%. I never tire of looking at that tube. Haha.
> 
> Were there any early 20th century buildings you had in mind?


 

 Thanks for your generous words)))
@UntilThen call on the Chrysler Building is good. Or maybe one of these


----------



## connieflyer

My take on fuses making a making a huge impact, is that if a 1 inch piece of exotic material can make such a large difference then there must me something basically wrong with the rest of the equipment.  If the snake oil were true, then all military equipment would use them and radar ranges would increase tremendously radio signals could be heard from around the world on a crystal radio (for those old enough to remember them).
 DL, looks like your findings at your meet shows youl, you should sell off all your tubes and Elise and invest in some upscale equipment. If you enjoy the music who cares if some golden ear person hears something you don't.  No ones hears the exact same way, and constantly trying to compare apples to oranges trying to come up with a different conclusion is futile. It is the same with everything in life. A Ford Focus will get you across the country just like a Rolls Royce Cornish, but it is the journey that makes a difference. Try enjoying the music. I for one would much rather have a Sennhieser Orpheus than the Elise strickly for the watching the show and "knowing" that at this price level it HAS  to sound a thousand times better.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> My take on fuses making a making a huge impact, is that if a 1 inch piece of exotic material can make such a large difference then there must me something basically wrong with the rest of the equipment.  If the snake oil were true, then all military equipment would use them and radar ranges would increase tremendously radio signals could be heard from around the world on a crystal radio (for those old enough to remember them).
> DL, looks like your findings at your meet shows youl, you should sell off all your tubes and Elise and invest in some upscale equipment. If you enjoy the music who cares if some golden ear person hears something you don't.  No ones hears the exact same way, and constantly trying to compare apples to oranges trying to come up with a different conclusion is futile. It is the same with everything in life. A Ford Focus will get you across the country just like a Rolls Royce Cornish, but it is the journey that makes a difference. Try enjoying the music. I for one would much rather have a Sennhieser Orpheus than the Elise strickly for the watching the show and "knowing" that at this price level it HAS  to sound a thousand times better.


 
 I couldn’t agree more, CF. Expensive fuses are a horrible example of junk science and hucksterism.
  
 I’m not sure the same can’t be said for super expensive amps. The basic laws of physics and electromagnetic theory cannot be altered by fairy dust. Beyond subjective ravings, I almost never see any rational explanation of how multi-thousand-dollar audio electronics perform their claimed “magic”. Me thinks that pure cost and the supposed extra-human hearing capacity of “insider” experts may be very much in play. The only expert that matters to me is ME.
  
 The Elise is a very special amp. It will provide countless hours of exceptional listening enjoyment with a broad range of tubes. I’m certainly not one to stand in judgment of anyone who spends a lot of time and money searching for the holy grail to squeeze out the last drop of performance from the Elise. To each his own.
  
 But as I have said before, every morning when I turn on my Elise I am amazed all over again at how special it is. I can’t obsess over some slight difference that might just be around the corner with the discovery of some hidden tube treasure. My recent tube purchase was irrational, but it gives me the chance to experience two special tubes I have been reading about for a long time. Notwithstanding that, I continue to choose to spend most of my time just enjoying my good fortune in having found the other Elise thread which led me to one of the better decisions of my life – buying the Elise.


----------



## 2359glenn

Fuses a joke who would pay $50 for a fuse a scam. That goes for $1000 power cables too how can this make a difference.
  
 Cant emagine the Orpheus sounding that great no room for quality transformers just a show.


----------



## connieflyer

Doe not have to sound that great at that price i is all about the theater!


----------



## pctazhp

2359glenn said:


> Fuses a joke who would pay $50 for a fuse a scam. That goes for $1000 power cables too how can this make a difference.
> 
> Cant emagine the Orpheus sounding that great no room for quality transformers just a show.


 

 Glenn. I have never heard one of your amps. But from all I can tell, you have built your reputation on sensible design, proven performance and a loyal group of followers. I hope some day I will have the good fortune to hear your new EL3N amp.


----------



## 2359glenn

pctazhp said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > Fuses a joke who would pay $50 for a fuse a scam. That goes for $1000 power cables too how can this make a difference.
> ...


 

 I would lend  out the EL3N amp but shipping is just so expensive. It has 3 transformers that makes it heavy
 And to Europe there are the taxis on top of shipping that makes it undoable.


----------



## pctazhp

2359glenn said:


> I would lend  out the EL3N amp but shipping is just so expensive. It has 3 transformers that makes it heavy
> And to Europe there are the taxis on top of shipping that makes it undoable.


 
 I really apologize if it seemed like I was hinting, although I can see how it could be taken that way. I will hear your amp if and when I'm prepared to step forward and pony up the green. By that time I may just be asking you to ship it to Europe


----------



## 2359glenn

pctazhp said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > I would lend  out the EL3N amp but shipping is just so expensive. It has 3 transformers that makes it heavy
> ...


 

 No apology needed I was thinking about it to let people find out how really good the EL3N really is.
 When in the right circuit it is a incredible tube the only tubes that can compare are the AD1 the 45 and the 2A3 and these are expensive.
 But even shipping in the US if I was to ship across the country to California it would cost nearly $100 each way.
 $200 is allot to listen to a amp.


----------



## pctazhp

*THE BIG THREE*​


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys, just a small report in regard to the Elise upgraded tubes:

"Hi Angelos

We are using the previous version of cv181. In out it did equally well (with some parameters even better) than v2 hence is better value.

Before deciding on the cv181 we went through a ton of other options - including many NOS tubes and new tubes. This upgrade give noticeable sound improvement. You can of course try later other tubes (there are many "unofficial" variants possible) but if you want to stay within our recommended parameters this is really a good choice.

Regards

Lukasz"


----------



## UntilThen

Wow I woke up to read very really interesting posts today, that has pearly gates of wisdom. This is better than CNN or Fox News. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












  
 My take on fuse is that 'it's there to prevent catastrophe in the event of an electrical overload and to prevent you from blowing your fuse'.
  
 Secondly, much as I love my Honda Accord Euro, I wouldn't drive it to a high end car meet to see if it has the same street cred as a Mercedes S500 coupe or a Bentley.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *THE BIG THREE*​


 
  
 Me thinks Shane has to come to Arizona.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hi guys, just a small report in regard to the Elise upgraded tubes:
> 
> "Hi Angelos
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've great respect for FA and Lukasz. Give it a good listen when you get it. I think it will sound good even if it's cv181 v1.
  
 However there are many good unofficial variants as Lukasz acknowledge.


----------



## rosgr63

If it's a 6SN7 why do they call it a CV181 which is a ECC32?
  
 I never understood this.


----------



## UntilThen

rosgr63 said:


> If it's a 6SN7 why do they call it a CV181 which is a ECC32?
> 
> I never understood this.


 
 My guess is that chinese loves the number 8. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I wouldn't have a clue why the CV and 1s.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 Read you impressions from your meet with interest. Here is my question: If the Singxer SU-1 USB signal cleaner / reclocker makes such a difference as to make the Holo DAC sound ordinary without it, did you try the Elise with the Singxser?


----------



## Oskari

rosgr63 said:


> If it's a 6SN7 why do they call it a CV181 which is a ECC32?
> 
> I never understood this.




It's quite silly, isn't it?

Trying to cash in on the fame, I suspect.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Oskari

It's silly indeed

Can the Elise transformer use CV181?


----------



## Oskari

That's pretty much at the limit (with 6AS7G) as I understand.


----------



## mordy

Here are quotes from a comparison of the 6SN7 and the Shuguang CV181. Maybe you can explain the techno talk:
  
_"the CV181Z might not be a drop in replacement for the *6SN7*. Typical *6SN7* heaters draw about *0.6A* and the *CV181z* draws about *0.9A (900mA)*, the old Mullard CV181 drew 950mA. This 50% increase in heater current amounts to 0.6A for a pair of CV181 in a circuit, which as you can see represents the load of a whole extra double triode._
  
_The *CV181Z* is electrically similar to the Mullard ECC32, with a maximum plate V of 300. Run at 250V (fairly typical) the 6SN7 could be biased around -8v (although typical applications are often less than this) while the CV181 probably benefits at half this for best linearity. So If your 6SN7 run on higher anode V or that high -8V grid bias, installing the CV181 will require some adjustment. Audio applications generally benefit from lower plate voltages and higher currents so the wilder applications of which the 6SN7 is capable (like plates at 450V and grid bias at -20V) are very unlikely. At 200V either the 6SN7 or the CV181 will happily do the business with -2V bias. The CV181Z mu is 32 rather than 20 of the 6SN7, but the level difference is not as great as that looks and unlikely to overdrive the next stage."_
  
 Here is a link to the page with the comparison:
  
 http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html
  
 From the little I think I understand from this article, the Shuguang has some characteristics similar to the original CV181 and different than the 6SN7. I leave for the experts to explain if this tube is closer to the 6SN7 or the CV181 - seems to be something in between.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> _"the CV181Z might not be a drop in replacement for the *6SN7*. Typical *6SN7* heaters draw about *0.6A* and the *CV181z* draws about *0.9A (900mA)*, the old Mullard CV181 drew 950mA. This 50% increase in heater current amounts to 0.6A for a pair of CV181 in a circuit, which as you can see represents the load of a whole extra double triode._




There have since been many sources that claim 600 mA, so that article may be wrong.

See, e.g., http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/shuguang%20treasure%20tube%20spec%20cv-181_0.pdf.

/link added/


----------



## rosgr63

This article claims it's a 6SN7


http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-t-6sn7-pair/


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Me thinks Shane has to come to Arizona.


 

 You're welcome any time, cowpoke


----------



## mordy

Are these the tubes the Lukasz includes now? This pair costs $70 shipped, but I see other CV181 tubes with different colored bases and glass and different prices.
  




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-Shuguang-Vacuum-Tubes-CV181-6SN7GT-6N8P-white-new-match-pair-by-factory-/271883188618?hash=item3f4d80398a:g:M4kAAOSwpdpVZnSf
  
 Didn't know the Shuguang is such a heavy weight: It is a division of LG-Philips and has produced over 70 million tubes since 1958!
  
 Here is a thought provoking quote from an article written by a Canadian Hi-Fi store:
  
 "Although Shuguang tubes have been sold all over the world, as many other Chinese factories, they don't really have an official distributor for each overseas market. Pricing of Shuguang generic tubes is very reasonable overall but varies from site to site — a better managed distribution model will definitely help Shuguang to build this 43 years old brand and gain more international recognition.
 Many online Shuguang tube sellers claim they are "factory direct" — whether they are indeed and whether the products are the screened leftovers from export batches are really unknown to any buyers. China's supply chain is a huge puzzle for any outsiders, so to make things simple, my principal of sourcing is: call up the factory, meet the real person, and buy directly from the factory myself and aim for long term. When dealing with Chinese factories, I only believe in what I see, never just word-of-mouth / mouse."
  
 Here is a link to the article with pictures:
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0609/


----------



## UntilThen

I'd say it's the 'Age of the Brown Base'. There's something about them....


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Are these the tubes the Lukasz includes now? This pair costs $70 shipped, but I see other CV181 tubes with different colored bases and glass and different prices.




It cannot be that tube because that's Shuguang and we should be looking at a Psvane tube.




angpsi said:


> Hi guys, just a small report in regard to the Elise upgraded tubes:
> 
> "Hi Angelos
> 
> ...




Based on that, I believe it is this:




rosgr63 said:


> http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-t-6sn7-pair/




Of which there is a newer version version as well: http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-tii-pair/


----------



## angpsi

rosgr63 said:


> This article claims it's a 6SN7
> 
> 
> http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-t-6sn7-pair/




This article also says there are two grades to choose from: "Classic" and "Grade A". They also note:

")...) The T-classic grade is not recommended to be used in pre-amplification stage. It may pose some noise issue when you have a high end preamp which is sensitive to noise. The T-classic grade is recommended to be used in front of power tubes as driver stage only. Please select quality grade carefully based on where you plan to use the tubes.)"

Considering the price difference of the upgrade ($140), would you say that the tubes in question are the "classic" grade CV181-T?

@UntilThen, I wouldn't expect a Shughuang brown base variant given that the site specifically mentions the PsVane brand. Or, should I?


----------



## UntilThen

I think it's this. Black and gold. Killer looks.


----------



## angpsi

oskari said:


> It cannot be that tube because that's Shuguang and we should be looking at a Psvane tube.




@Oskari, you beat me to it!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> @UntilThen, I wouldn't expect a Shughuang brown base variant given that the site specifically mentions the PsVane brand. Or, should I?


 
 After the morning coffee, it is indeed not the Shughuang. It's stated as PsVane drivers on FA website and the price has gone back to $699 for stock model. ProfFalkin got it at $629 yesterday - cheaper than what I paid for a year ago, which is $649.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> I think it's this. Black and gold. Killer looks.




Indeed!


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Didn't know the Shuguang is such a heavy weight: It is a division of LG-Philips and has produced over 70 million tubes since 1958!




They have a _joint venture_ with something that was once called LG-Philips something (itself a joint venture) but is now called something else. These things get complicated. :rolleyes:


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> You're welcome any time, cowpoke


 
 Shania Twain is coming too. Clean up the place.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> This article also says there are two grades to choose from: "Classic" and "Grade A". They also note:
> 
> ")...) The T-classic grade is not recommended to be used in pre-amplification stage. It may pose some noise issue when you have a high end preamp which is sensitive to noise. The T-classic grade is recommended to be used in front of power tubes as driver stage only. Please select quality grade carefully based on where you plan to use the tubes.)"
> 
> Considering the price difference of the upgrade ($140), would you say that the tubes in question are the "classic" grade CV181-T?




I wouldn't worry about that. Those are that seller's grades.

Cf. http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Other_brands_OEM_Tubes_Preamp_doubletriodes/Psvane_CV181_T_2_6SN7_Matched_Pair_3130


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 The information on the joint LG-Philips venture was based on 2009 information. Afterwards I found more recent information (from rosgr63's link) from 2011 and further on in time, when PSVane split off. As you say, things got very complicated....
  
 Reminds me of a story one of my sons told me. One summer he had a job in a vodka distillery. They had eight different labels with different and more fancy bottles and packaging, at eight different price points, However, he told me that the vodka was the same in all of them.....


----------



## Oskari

That (differentiation) is another rather silly thing. :normal_smile :


----------



## DecentLevi

pctazhp said:


> ...
> 
> The Elise is a very special amp. It will provide countless hours of exceptional listening enjoyment with a broad range of tubes. I’m certainly not one to stand in judgment of anyone who spends a lot of time and money searching for the holy grail to squeeze out the last drop of performance from the Elise. To each his own.
> 
> But as I have said before, every morning when I turn on my Elise I am amazed all over again at how special it is. I can’t obsess over some slight difference that might just be around the corner with the discovery of some hidden tube treasure. My recent tube purchase was irrational, but it gives me the chance to experience two special tubes I have been reading about for a long time. Notwithstanding that, I continue to choose to spend most of my time just enjoying my good fortune...


 
  
 Well I for one think there's a way to bridge both chasing magic upgrades and enjoying the music - a very enjoyable one if you ask me. I upgrade when feasible / an opportunity presents itself, test it out and continue enjoying the music. And another such chance upgrade occurred last night! Incoming was my 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter, which allowed me to finally use my existing *RCA 12AV7* tubes as drivers which I got for just $30, with the quad EL3N.
  
 This is absolutely yet another step up the audio ladder, making this my all time best (to date) on the Elise, and even better than my previous two favorites (Tesla ECC88 + quad EL3N, and dual EL3n + 7236). *The sound I'm getting is smooth, sweet, crisp, clear, liquid, very dynamic, tonally correct, spacious, yet still slightly warm. *
  

  

  
The concept with quad EL3N + miniature drivers seems to be the process of counter-balancing the somewhat soft / slow / dark sound of the quad EL3N as powers, with driver tubes that are snappy / fast / bright, whilst retaining the EL3N's expansive soundstage, organic tone and exquisite realism.


----------



## DecentLevi

OH also BTW, I got to try my Elise yesterday at the meet (using my normal home setup) with a power component. It was the Shunyata Venom PS8 power distributor worth around $700 that a friend brought to the meet

 Unfortunately IMO, it seemed to make absolutely 0% improvement on the sound of the Elise, vs. my non-grounded home power connection. However I don't want to 'dispel' the concept of using the likes of power conditioning for the Elise or for hi-fi audio setups in general. I do believe @hypnos1 must have been hearing a good improvement in fidelity with his, and that may have had more to do with the fact that his was a power *regenerator*, rather than just a *conditioner*.


----------



## UntilThen

Monday afternoon in suburban Sydney where the dogs snooze and the birds tug their heads under their wings. I'm in a lullaby with Jesse Skyes's song that CF introduce me to in August. Sounds so good on Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

Her voice is very captivating you must have gotten the recommendation from someone with the golden ears!


----------



## UntilThen

This one's for @pctazhp ... for hassling him to do the review.. for taking my jokes on him without complaining. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hey I just watch Notting Hill last night.


----------



## doofalb

untilthen said:


> Kind of miss this post. Some check list for you doofalb before you start listening to music with Elise.
> 
> Do some stretch exercise because once you sit down to listen, you're unlikely to get up again for the next 24 hours. Get a full glass of your best red wine. Your body needs the warm up in tandem with the tubes heating up. Lastly lose the shoes. Your toes needs room to be tapping.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the kind words @UntilThen and @hypnos1!
  
 Elise was late 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 due to Thanksgiving. She must have been held up at someone's TG dinner..but she's finally in my hands
  
 I will follow your check list as close as possible. I'm not sure I can sing like Phil Collins tho. His and my singing don't have much in common even if we have the same hair "style" and beer belly. But I'll certainly sing along, at least until the neighbors send over the cops


----------



## UntilThen

doofalb said:


> Thanks for the kind words @UntilThen and @hypnos1!
> 
> Elise was late
> 
> ...


 
 Ok .... great .... excellent. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Don't forget to let us know how it goes.
  
 Meanwhile here's a song from the incomparable Alison Krauss and John Waite.... for you.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Hello angpsi, (...) You have the amp and headphone. What source are you planning on using for your Head-Fi ?




Hi @UntilThen, this is going to be an office setup (I wonder if I'll ever be able to work efficiently once the Elise arrives), so I don't have a fancy setup to back the system as a source. I'll be using a HiFime Sabre9018 USB DAC that I recently acquired, which—interestingly—surprised me with a VERY articulate rendering through my Etymotic Hf2s. Music will be coming from digital files or Tidal HD via Audirvana 2.

Perhaps it's irrelevant to the scope of this thread, but the Tidal / Audirvana combination directly compared to red book cds (e.g. the Janos Starker Bach cello concertos / Mercury [double layer cd/sacd] recording) played through my Krell MD20 / Benchmark DAC1. I tested them playing in parallel, one through the optical in and the other through spdif, switching between the two in real time.

When I recover financially from the acquisition of the Elise, I might be looking for a reasonably priced second-hand SACD player - something which I've lusted after many years now.

Of course I'm always open to suggestions!


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  thanks for sharing. I was just wondering if you'll be using a DAC, turntable or a CD player or some streamer. Looks like you're pretty sorted.
  
 I'm also using Tidal through Audirvana Plus on my iMac (which I think sound really good) and on my PC, it's with JRiver. I have an entry level Denon turntable too for when I feel like spinning some vinyls.. My DAC is the NAD d1050. All in keeping with Elise cost benefit ratio. One can get great sound without spending too much. 
  
 My headphones are T1 and HE560. I've just busted my HD650. All part of tube rolling adventures. 
  
 This is pretty much my head-fi setup.


----------



## angpsi

Just got notice from Lukasz, the tube is this one: http://en.psvane.com/info-8-178.html
  
 Sells for around €90/pair (e.g. http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/catalog.php?product_search=psvane%206sn7&language=en)
 Hmmm...
 (well, I did get the rebate for the lot)


----------



## UntilThen

If you want my opinion, I'd say just go with Elise and the stock tubes and forget about upgrading to Psvane drivers. I'm sure Lukasz wouldn't mind your changing your mind. 
  
 Did I just did a 'She sells sea shells by the sea shore there?' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Elise with stock tubes looks good and can hold it's own with an above average sound. The Tung Sol 6Sn7gtb are quite good.

  
@hypnos1  can tell you more about the Psvane CV181T-ii. He hardly use them.


----------



## whirlwind

pctazhp said:


> Due solely and exclusively to the impatience of @UntilThen, this is my report on my new Bendix 6080WB and GEC 6AS7G tubes. I will also compare them to my GEC 6080 pair.
> 
> Anything I say in this post is strictly my own experience with my system. The same EL3N drivers were used throughout my listening sessions. I listened to a broad range of music (all of which sounded wonderful with all three tubes). But my final ranking was solidified using a Shania Twain album I am very familiar with.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great post.
  
 I have recently bought a pair of 6080 slotted bendix from Starvos, they should arrive shortly.
  
 I own a pair of the solid plates and I like them a lot and I am excited to hear the slotted bendix.
  
 The 6080 bendix are built like a tank, for sure.
  
 I could not agree more about the GEC 6AS7G....this tube has the best overall tone that I have heard from any 6AS7G.....I use it exclusively with the HD800.
  
 I think these three tubes would be in most peoples to 5-10 power tubes.
  
 I like the GEC 6080 power tubes, but I probably like a few other not mentioned here a tad better...but you are splitting hairs and it just comes down to ones ears, gears, preferences, genre ect.
  
 Again, great post and a pleasure to read it.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> I couldn’t agree more, CF. Expensive fuses are a horrible example of junk science and hucksterism.
> 
> I’m not sure the same can’t be said for super expensive amps. The basic laws of physics and electromagnetic theory cannot be altered by fairy dust. Beyond subjective ravings, I almost never see any rational explanation of how multi-thousand-dollar audio electronics perform their claimed “magic”. Me thinks that pure cost and the supposed extra-human hearing capacity of “insider” experts may be very much in play. The only expert that matters to me is ME.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Don't really blame you, pct...my own obsession these past 2 years has often had me wondering... What on Earth have I been up to lol?!!! Especially since it is now quite clear that the differences between tubes are in fact... *FAR LESS THAN IS TOO OFTEN STATED!!!*..._Exaggerated_ claims of  "superiority" are - IMHO - very much bordering on extreme folly lol! Even mention of "concensus" opinion in this area (or many others!) is often actually rendered pretty well meaningless I'm afraid, when placed under the close scrutiny of statistical sampling analysis and true scientific 'Method'. As you so aptly said - "The only expert that matters to me is *ME*" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Much, much more relevant are differences in the amp's* circuit design: implementation and component quality!* Plus, of course... _*headphones!!*_ Not forgetting personal, biased _*opinion *_lol!
  
 Having said this, the journey has still been an immensely enjoyable one, and has at least brought further insight into the world of "magical" tubedom, along with meeting some really great company here and in the 'other' threads 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. It has (hopefully) also helped steer folks in the direction of possible tube options - one continued by others...especially the sensible/realistic @UntilThen.
  
 When I look back at some of my own posted impressions, I now realise that I too have sometimes been guilty of _slightly_ exaggerated statements...but I plead excitement at continued surprise by Elise's abilities, while still in the learning curve! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. My brief initial experience of the 'revised' Elise has in fact highlighted to me all the points I have covered here...but I still remain hopeful that my enthusiasm won't in fact get the better of me LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I can only repeat the oft-quoted statement - Elise will bring sonic enjoyment galore..._*regardless of the tubes used!!!*_...So...ENJOY THE MUSIC, EVERYONE!! ...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


pctazhp said:


> *THE BIG THREE*​


 
  
 And what more could you want, mon ami?..._*Vive "irrational" behaviour, lol!!!*_


----------



## louisxiawei

connieflyer said:


> My take on fuses making a making a huge impact, is that if a 1 inch piece of exotic material can make such a large difference then there must me something basically wrong with the rest of the equipment.  If the snake oil were true, then all military equipment would use them and radar ranges would increase tremendously radio signals could be heard from around the world on a crystal radio (for those old enough to remember them).
> DL, looks like your findings at your meet shows youl, you should sell off all your tubes and Elise and invest in some upscale equipment. If you enjoy the music who cares if some golden ear person hears something you don't.  No ones hears the exact same way, and constantly trying to compare apples to oranges trying to come up with a different conclusion is futile. It is the same with everything in life. A Ford Focus will get you across the country just like a Rolls Royce Cornish, but it is the journey that makes a difference. Try enjoying the music. I for one would much rather have a Sennhieser Orpheus than the Elise strickly for the watching the show and "knowing" that at this price level it HAS  to sound a thousand times better.


 
 Thanks for the good reply, connieflyer.
  
 I can confirm that the fuse in the Elise is T1.6AL250V @  5mm*19mm (My number of Elise 0079).  
  
 Looks like it has 19mm length, but I can only find the upgraded fuse has 5mm*20 mm option, is this 1mm difference an error of standard deviation?
  
 Moreover, Does the fuse have top and bottom side? Should I place the fuse into a certain direction? Or it doesn't matter? Because I see there is a little bead inside of the fuse, no idea whether it needs to be at the bottom or on the top?
  
 Finally, if T1.6AL250V, which option should I choose? 1.6A slow blow? 
  
 Sorry for being a pain asking so many questions. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Just got notice from Lukasz, the tube is this one: http://en.psvane.com/info-8-178.html




Thanks for the information. That's another example of product differentiation. :rolleyes:




untilthen said:


> If you want my opinion, I'd say just go with Elise and the stock tubes and forget about upgrading to Psvane drivers. I'm sure Lukasz wouldn't mind your changing your mind.




Or better yet: get both and tell us what you think! I don't remember anybody having done that.


----------



## angpsi

@Oskari, can I get these for €10-20? I'll be sure to share my thoughts on them too!
  
  


pctazhp said:


> *THE BIG THREE*​


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


>


 
  
 Hi angpsi...best laugh I've had in ages lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...you would have to KILL for those prices, mon ami!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I've just busted my HD650. All part of tube rolling adventures.




Inquiring minds and all that…


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi angpsi...best laugh I've had in ages lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I've done my homework @hypnos1; glad that I got you to laugh though, that was the point from the start!
  
 But I'll be looking at some NOS alternatives once I establish a first impression reference with Lukasz's recommendations—at least one set, just to satisfy my curiosity.


----------



## angpsi

Or, perhaps I should make someone "an offer he can't refuse"!


----------



## Oskari

louisxiawei said:


> I can confirm that the fuse in the Elise is T1.6AL250V @  5mm*19mm (My number of Elise 0079).
> Looks like it has 19mm length, but I can only find the upgraded fuse has 5mm*20 mm option, is this 1mm difference an error of standard deviation?




Must be. 5x20mm is a standard size. (Thanks for the info btw.)




> Moreover, Does the fuse have top and bottom side? Should I place the fuse into a certain direction? Or it doesn't matter? Because I see there is a little bead inside of the fuse, no idea whether it needs to be at the bottom or on the top?




Doesn't matter.




> Finally, if T1.6AL250V, which option should I choose? 1.6A slow blow?




That's what T1.6A means.


----------



## louisxiawei

oskari said:


> Must be. 5x20mm is a standard size. (Thanks for the info btw.)
> Doesn't matter.
> That's what T1.6A means.


 
 Answers on spot. Like that!  Cheers Oskari.
  
 Lukasz seems to be very busy for answering the Elise ordering emails and ignore my email of the request for the spec of the Elise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  My friend in China sent Feliks an email 3 days later than me, and he got the reply while I haven't. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Still have no idea of power consumption yet. Only know its 80W mentioned from a previous user. Will keep you update once I have the confirmation.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> @Oskari, can I get these for €10-20? I'll be sure to share my thoughts on them too!




Yeah, in your dreams. 

Or you must get _extremely_ lucky.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Inquiring minds and all that…


 
  
 Hey O...that's what I keep (or _trying _to keep!) telling myself LOL - after recently managing to destroy two more tubes in the attempt to remove and adapt the bases! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. My sorrow has, however, been mitigated by a couple of factors : 1. The EL11s in question did _*not*_ have the mesh plates.... 2. The experience confirmed to me the great variation in quality of the same tube from different manufacturers - ie. the TESLA version, compared to Valvo/Philips (Austria, Italy, Australia etc.) andTelefunken/RFT for example. The minute I gazed upon said Teslas I had my doubts....and my attempts to remove the old bases soon confirmed my suspicions - the glass was the thinnest, most fragile stuff I've ever come across...NOT impressed!! In addition, the internal construction just didn't match the quality of the others...something you can't really tell for sure until you get right inside, free of the glass!! Plus, all the others have at least two of the wires down into the base covered with insulation (much needed, given how close together they are!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), the Teslas _*none! *_Oh, and by the way, did I mention even the bottom of the glass tube was wonky as Hell!!...Needless to say, therefore, I do NOT recommend any of the EL3N/EL11 family from *this* manufacturer!!...(and yet their gold pin/grid posts E88CC is a very good tube indeed LOL!!). Perhaps my two were in fact from a batch that should have been rejected...but given the _mutiple_ factors mentioned, I doubt that...
  
 And thus the "inquiring mind" has a great deal to answer for methinks!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 ps. That's dreadful news re. your 650s @UntilThen...deepest commiserations...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> I've done my homework @hypnos1; glad that I got you to laugh though, that was the point from the start!
> 
> But I'll be looking at some NOS alternatives once I establish a first impression reference with Lukasz's recommendations—at least one set, just to satisfy my curiosity.


 
  
 Had a feeling that was the case, angpsi...but it still gave me a good (much needed, all things considered lol!!) laugh.
  
 And well done for satisfying not only your own curiosity, but _*ours*_!!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(looks like you're gonna be a good asset to our community LOL!...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> WELL DONE! PF...looks like this thread will soon be _extremely_ busy with newfound joy... ...




Yep, currently #2 in stats. :blink:




hypnos1 said:


> Hey O...that's what I keep (or _trying_ to keep!) telling myself LOL - after recently managing to destroy two more tubes in the attempt to remove and adapt the bases!  .




…


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Don't really blame you, pct...my own obsession these past 2 years has often had me wondering... What on Earth have I been up to lol?!!! Especially since it is now quite clear that the differences between tubes are in fact... *FAR LESS THAN IS TOO OFTEN STATED!!!*..._Exaggerated_ claims of  "superiority" are - IMHO - very much bordering on extreme folly lol! Even mention of "concensus" opinion in this area (or many others!) is often actually rendered pretty well meaningless I'm afraid, when placed under the close scrutiny of statistical sampling analysis and true scientific 'Method'. As you so aptly said - "The only expert that matters to me is *ME*"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I very much agree. And plead totally guilty to all of the above


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> Well I for one think there's a way to bridge both chasing magic upgrades and enjoying the music - a very enjoyable one if you ask me. I upgrade when feasible / an opportunity presents itself, test it out and continue enjoying the music. And another such chance upgrade occurred last night! Incoming was my 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter, which allowed me to finally use my existing *RCA 12AV7* tubes as drivers which I got for just $30, with the quad EL3N.
> 
> This is absolutely yet another step up the audio ladder, making this my all time best (to date) on the Elise, and even better than my previous two favorites (Tesla ECC88 + quad EL3N, and dual EL3n + 7236). *The sound I'm getting is smooth, sweet, crisp, clear, liquid, very dynamic, tonally correct, spacious, yet still slightly warm. *
> 
> ...


 
 DL:  We all find our own personal balance. If we're having fun that should be all that matters - well I guess with the exception of not spending money foolishly and regretting it later.
  
 I do have to say, that when I try to draw a straight line (audio ladder I guess) from your description of where you were when you were experimenting with the Christmas Trees to where you are today, I'm having a little problem finding room in the known universe for that line. But, hey. Everything is different in California - especially up in the bay area - which is where my sister lives and is one of my most favorite places on earth.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Yep, currently #2 in stats.


 
 Again? 
  
 Must be inquiring minds, 1mm short fuse, 10pounds GEC, Phil Collins look alike and killer jokes.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> DL:  We all find our own personal balance. If we're having fun that should be all that matters - well I guess with the exception of not spending money foolishly and regretting it later.
> 
> I do have to say, that when I try to draw a straight line (audio ladder I guess) from your description of where you were when you were experimenting with the Christmas Trees to where you are today, I'm having a little problem finding room in the known universe for that line. But, hey. Everything is different in California - especially up in the bay area - which is where my sister lives and is one of my most favorite places on earth.


 
  
 Your line needs to go upwards like this.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Your line needs to go upwards like this.


----------



## UntilThen

Splitting hairs indeed when experimenting with some of the better tubes. Elise just sounds good with any of these tubes thrown at it. If you didn't find it sounding good, you have bought the wrong amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Here's an old favourite of mine. Fivre 6N7G with Mullard 6080. Same magic, similar allure, warm, ear caressing tones that lift you up up and away. These sockets better last. They have been through very rigorous testing and still holding up well.


----------



## Arniesb

louisxiawei said:


> Answers on spot. Like that!  Cheers Oskari.
> 
> Lukasz seems to be very busy for answering the Elise ordering emails and ignore my email of the request for the spec of the Elise :tongue_smile: .  My friend in China sent Feliks an email 3 days later than me, and he got the reply while I haven't.
> 
> Still have no idea of power consumption yet. Only know its 80W mentioned from a previous user. Will keep you update once I have the confirmation.


Hmmm, very strange... He answered my every question in a few hours mostly.


----------



## louisxiawei

arniesb said:


> Hmmm, very strange... He answered my every question in a few hours mostly.


 
 He doesn't like me. I asked too much and I'm a trouble maker.


----------



## UntilThen

And now I'll play you a song from Cuba because music is universal.


----------



## UntilThen

arniesb said:


> Hmmm, very strange... He answered my every question in a few hours mostly.


 
 Arnie !!! Have you got your Elise yet?


----------



## connieflyer

Not to be outdone and increase thread count!


----------



## pctazhp

Remaining rankings. Before I started listening, I placed the remain three tubes in the following order of preference. I didn’t spend as long listening to these tubes as I did the top 3. But my listening confirmed my starting order of preference, of which I’m pretty confident.
  
 4  TS 7236 (rebranded with IBM label – bought from @UntilThen). This is a very enjoyable tube. It has a slightly “metallic” sound, but still quite musical. Very clean. Just not quite up to the top three. Not as involving. But please understand that the distance between this tube and the #1 GEC6AS7G is not substantial. Differentiating tubes at this level is indeed challenged by the time gap between allowing one tube to cool down, replace with new tub and allow it to warm up a little. And some may actually prefer this tube to any of the top 3 because to me it does seem to have more “slam”. If this were the only power tube I had I would still be several universes beyond where I was in my pre-Elise days ))))))
  
 5.  TS/Chatham 6520.  This tube is at a level where I would say it has dropped out of striking distance of my top 3. It is a good tube, but just doesn’t appeal to me emotionally. Not as clean or natural as the top tier. It seems to have more “grain” and something in the bass just doesn’t sound quite right.
  
 6.  TS 5998  The distance from the top tier continues to grow with this tube. It is ok, but I can’t call it great. For some reason, I have never been able to warm up to this tube. And I definitely think it is over priced.
  
 All of my listening has been done with EL3N drivers. My ranking could certainly change with different drivers. But for now I’m through ranking tubes and back to listening.


----------



## mordy

Hi CF,
  
 Don't know if this belated cartoon is so funny, but at least it adds to thread count:


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Interesting that you characterize the 7236 as sounding clean - I am using the same description.
  
 Don't know what is happening, but the longer I listen to the Elise, the smaller the differences become with the top rated tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi CF,
> 
> Don't know if this belated cartoon is so funny, but at least it adds to thread count:


 

 Your dedication to the cause is greatly appreciated. We MUST dominate HeadFi


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Interesting that you characterize the 7236 as sounding clean - I am using the same description.
> 
> *Don't know what is happening, but the longer I listen to the Elise, the smaller the differences become with the top rated tubes.*


 
 Very much my same experience.


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer.and @mordy. I have come up with a unique and original slogan for our cause: "Make HeadFi Great Again"


----------



## ProfFalkin

pctazhp said:


> @connieflyer.and @mordy. I have come up with a unique and original slogan for our cause: "Make HeadFi Great Again"


 
  
 HA!   At least you didn't suggest something like "Grab Head-Fi by the... " well, I can't say that here.


----------



## connieflyer

Love it we must maintain the correct attitude music is the closest thing to happiness that is attainable For All Mankind. Scary thought right


----------



## pctazhp

proffalkin said:


> HA!   At least you didn't suggest something like "Grab Head-Fi by the... " well, I can't say that here.


 

 Ha))) Don't get me started. I already get into much more trouble on Facebook than I can handle. Tubes are so much more mentally healthy.


----------



## Arniesb

untilthen said:


> Arnie !!! Have you got your Elise yet?


Not yet, When i will sell my T1, i will buy Elise right away! Now that i got HD800S, T1 is collecting dusts. Soundstage is really amazing out of Sennheiser HD800S! Cant go back to lesser soundstage.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Again?
> 
> Must be inquiring minds, 1mm short fuse, 10pounds GEC, Phil Collins look alike and killer jokes.




Let's all remember that bad jokes are important, too. :wink_face: :bigsmile_face:

As generally evidenced by this thread. :tongue_smile:


----------



## mordy

OK Oskari, you'll tell me if this is bad or funny:


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> OK Oskari, you'll tell me if this is bad or funny:




Both!


----------



## connieflyer

I agree


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Let's all remember that bad jokes are important, too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I read this first and was wondering what you were getting at. Then I read the above posts and I can see this year's Best Comedy Performance is going to be tightly contested here.
  
 I think it's a side effect of tube rolling....


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> All of my listening has been done with EL3N drivers. My ranking could certainly change with different drivers. But for now I’m through ranking tubes and back to listening.


 
  
 Now that you've done the listening test, you have to do the touch test with your fingers .... when the tubes are powered.


----------



## mordy

Speaking of both, I now tried for fun to mix a RCA 6080 and TS 7236 as power tubes. By sliding my balance control I can A/B the tubes. As charming as the RCAs are, the TS is better. Either one sounds good, and the RCA 6080's are very enjoyable with excellent mid bass. However,a direct comparison gives the edge to the Tung Sol 7236 with more detail and clarity. (Although sometimes all the detail tires me.)
  
 Anyhow, everything sounds good with the Elise - time to enjoy the music and switch off the analytical mode......
  
 UT, my TS reads 119C and the RCA 125C


----------



## UntilThen

arniesb said:


> Not yet, When i will sell my T1, i will buy Elise right away! Now that i got HD800S, T1 is collecting dusts. Soundstage is really amazing out of Sennheiser HD800S! Cant go back to lesser soundstage.


 
 Correct that out of head experience. HD800s will give you that and more. It's a tough one though. T1 sounds very good on some music. I suggest you buy Elise first then try both headphones with her before you sell off your T1. You might end up keeping both.


----------



## UntilThen

I can't get this Cuban song out of my head. This version sounds good.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Now that you've done the listening test, you have to do the touch test with your fingers .... when the tubes are powered.


 

 I tried. They seemed hot. But will require much more long-term touching to reach any solid conclusion. I'll get to that as soon as I'm released from the hospital.


----------



## connieflyer

I had a girl friend that used to tell me that too.......


----------



## connieflyer

Sorry about that, old age let my mind wander a bit, I see we are still talking about tubes, not ahhh  well tubes it is!


----------



## connieflyer

Are we number one yet?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Are we number one yet?


 
 YES)))) Thanks to old girlfriends


----------



## UntilThen

I wonder where @doofalb is? I hope he hasn't finished that bottle of red.
  
 I would have expected the review to be tabled here this morning. Perhaps they sleep in, in Hawaii.


----------



## connieflyer

Knew they were good for something!  Seems like there was more, but mind must have lost that info


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> I wonder where @doofalb is? I hope he hasn't finished that bottle of red.
> 
> I would have expected the review to be tabled here this morning. Perhaps they sleep in, in Hawaii.


 
 I'm in Hawaii and I'm up


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I can't get this Cuban song out of my head. This version sounds good.





 Don't you realize we're supposed to be in mourning for the next 9 days???? Really cool recording, by the way


----------



## UntilThen

I'm cycling through my tubes from now to Christmas. The countdown to Christmas is on. There will be a new jingle everyday.


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> I'm in Hawaii and I'm up


 

 Well look who the cat just dragged in


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> I'm in Hawaii and I'm up


 
 David can you check on @doofalb ?  Make sure his Elise has not blown the fuse.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Sorry about that, old age let my mind wander a bit, I see we are still talking about tubes, not ahhh  well tubes it is!




You get my point now, UT?


----------



## doofalb

untilthen said:


> I wonder where @doofalb is? I hope he hasn't finished that bottle of red.
> 
> I would have expected the review to be tabled here this morning. Perhaps they sleep in, in Hawaii.


 
 Absolutely! We do sleep in, than we go surfing, nest is an extended breakfast and at some point we roll in to work...I wish, lol
  
 I actually worked all weekend and got a total of 1 hour of listening time on the Elise...so not fair. Work always get's in the way, dammit
  
 TLDR: the bottle of wine is still unopened


----------



## doofalb

Oh no, David ruined "our" reputation!


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Are we number one yet?




Nah, still #2. The buggers only refresh the stats once a day. I think we'll be golden tomorrow. :rolleyes:


----------



## UntilThen

doofalb said:


> Absolutely! We do sleep in, than we go surfing, nest is an extended breakfast and at some point we roll in to work...I wish, lol
> 
> I actually worked all weekend and got a total of 1 hour of listening time on the Elise...so not fair. Work always get's in the way, dammit
> 
> TLDR: the bottle of wine is still unopened


 
 Ok one hour of listening on Elise. I gather no hum, no channel imbalance and it sounded like a Robin singing?
  
 Oh man, I remember the Hawaiian breakfast .... it's a killer !!! And then the surf and beach bums. Take me there again.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> You get my point now, UT?


 
 I'm still trying to process all the posts.


----------



## mordy

Dreaming about Hawaii.....
  




  




  
 David, if you had held on to those 70's muscle cars, you would easily be able to afford this one.....
  
 BTW, is your current avatar inspired by tube glow?


----------



## doofalb

untilthen said:


> Ok one hour of listening on Elise. I gather no hum, no channel imbalance and it sounded like a Robin singing?
> 
> Oh man, I remember the Hawaiian breakfast .... it's a killer !!! And then the surf and beach bums. Take me there again.


 
 Definitely no hum and I didn't notice any channel imbalance, at least not at the volume setting I was listening to with the HE650s. Is a channel imbalance noticeable at all volume levels?
  
 The grass is always greener...see, I would love to have a good flat white and catch some waves in one of the non-crowded spots in OZ. Here, I'm mostly working, haven't surfed in a year or so. But, for play I get to listen to the Elise, so I can't complain


----------



## doofalb

mordy said:


> BTW, is your current avatar inspired by tube glow?


 
  
 Haven't had the Elise on for a long time, but I think (hope!) that that lava flow was a lot hotter than any tube can get, lol


----------



## UntilThen

doofalb said:


> Definitely no hum and I didn't notice any channel imbalance, at least not at the volume setting I was listening to with the HE650s. Is a channel imbalance noticeable at all volume levels?
> 
> The grass is always greener...see, I would love to have a good flat white and catch some waves in one of the non-crowded spots in OZ. Here, I'm mostly working, haven't surfed in a year or so. But, for play I get to listen to the Elise, so I can't complain


 
 Channel imbalance usually due to problematic tube(s). If you don't hear it at reasonable volume then you have a fine working unit and tubes. Congrats. Obviously too early for you to provide some feedback. Some impressions. Take your time. New tube amps and tubes need a reasonable amount of burn-in.
  
 Non-crowded spots in Oz? You would have to get north of Sydney. Hawaii is a paradise to me the last time I was there. It's really magical.


----------



## connieflyer

I should have bought land when I was stationed there in 1964-65. Back then it was just about the Mai Tai's and the wahine's !


----------



## Oskari

louisxiawei said:


> I can confirm that the fuse in the Elise is T1.6AL250V ...




^230V amps.




untilthen said:


> Make sure his Elise has not blown the fuse.




Reminds me...

As far as I remember, none of you non-230V folks ever told the specs of the fuse in that part of the world. Not that it matters much (to me). Just "inquiring minds" and crap like that.


----------



## doofalb

untilthen said:


> Channel imbalance usually due to problematic tube(s). If you don't hear it at reasonable volume then you have a fine working unit and tubes. Congrats. Obviously too early for you to provide some feedback. Some impressions. Take your time. New tube amps and tubes need a reasonable amount of burn-in.
> 
> Non-crowded spots in Oz? You would have to get north of Sydney. Hawaii is a paradise to me the last time I was there. It's really magical.


 
 Thanks for the info! 
  
 North of Sydney is where I went back in 2004. Not complaining about living in Hawaii, I wouldn't be here if I hated it  but  it's also more fun to be here on vacation then to work. As anywhere else, lol


----------



## UntilThen

doofalb said:


> Thanks for the info!


 
 I've always wonder what everyone's first song is on Elise. Mine would have been one of Dire Straits numbers. This one sounds particularly good to me. I have it on LP.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Dreaming about Hawaii.....




That Hawaii is only about ten times the price of an Elise. :eek:

Don't think so.


----------



## doofalb

untilthen said:


> I've always wonder what everyone's first song is on Elise. Mine would have been one of Dire Straits numbers. This one sounds particularly good to me. I have it on LP.


 
 My choice was based on my most recent playlist as it allowed for an easier comparison. So that was a Japanese remastered album from Red Hot Chilli Peppers (Blood Sugar). I am looking forward to listening to Phil Collins' In the Air tonight you posted


----------



## UntilThen

It's Dire Straits day again today beginning with their 1st album. Red Hot Chilli Peppers - yes they are spicy. 
  
 You have to listen to 'In The Air Tonight'. It will electrify you.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> That Hawaii is only about ten times the price of an Elise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Please @mordy I'm trying to unlisten Blue Hawaii. This combo at the meet has corrupted my hearing with that Pink Panther song. It's too detailed.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Is this what you meant?
  
_"The thing you have to realise about these amps is that they are not designed to blow your head off. At this level of audio goodness, what you’re getting is access to parts of the music you simply didn’t realise were there. When musicians record a song, there is so much that they lay down that never makes it through to the listener’s ears under most circumstances. A combination of audio compression, dodgy sources like smartphones, and low quality headphones mean that a lot of the detail is removed. That simply isn’t the case here. Sure, you’re paying your $6800 four exquisitely crafted design and superb build, but really, that money is for the purchase of a key that unlocks your music._
  
_*Unlock Code*_ _As long as you’re listening from a good source, like a decent turntable, a high resolution stream, or a CD, then you’re going to get everything. Absolutely everything. You are going to hear every single nuance of every single note, every breath the singer makes. The tiniest shifting from foot to foot by the guitar player will be recorded. You can take a song you’ve heard a million times, a song you swear you know back to front, and you’ll discover new parts of it. The sounds will be richer, more full, the textures more prevalent. Comparing something like the Blue Hawaii SE to smartphone audio is like comparing a burger from McDonald’s and a burger from Heston Blumenthal. They’re still technically the same product, but we know which one we’re shelling out for._
_This is an amp that you’ll be spending quiet hours with. It’s an amp that will make you want to put away your phone, unplug your WiFi, find a comfortable space to sit, get a really, really good bottle of bourbon, maybe even a cigar…and just listen. If you dig into the badly-written hell that is the audiophile internet, you can extract treatise after treatise about how the dynamic character of the sound isn’t quite as neutral as that one amp the writer listened to at THE in ’82, and how it would be dramatically improved by swapping out the tubes for a Manley XL57B amp with a carbo-loaded turbo-driver, or whatever, but really: this amp is incredible. You would have to be the most pernickety, pedantic, detail-obsessed, moustachioed Gradgrind  to not admit that."_
     
   Funny, I thought I was reading about the Elise.....


----------



## UntilThen

Pink Panther jump out of the headphone and had it's paws on my throat strangling me. It was that real. I have to wrestle with that big cat and the next person waiting in line to listen.
  
 However you know what's real? Elise is real now and sounds really good with T1 on Dire Straits.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> _"The thing you have to realise about these amps is that they are not designed to blow your head off._




That's a relief. :rolleyes:


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> That's a relief.


 
  
  


mordy said:


> _"The thing you have to realise about these amps is that they are not designed to blow your head off. _


 
 Which is why they are not so suitable for Metallica or Red Hot Chilli Peppers. For that you need Elise with 5998 and you'll be dancing on the table tops and bringing the house down.


----------



## mordy

i want to thank everybody for their good sense of humor and all the good laughs I had today! THANKS!


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> That's a relief.


 

 This will probably do serious damage to your reputation, but I really appreciate your sense of humor. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And thanks to @UntilThen,  we now know never to risk our lives by getting close to a Blue Hawaii and a Pink Panther. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Sure has been another highly informative day hanging out with the horses here at the HeadFi Coral. Whoever said that social media is a vast wasteland???


----------



## UntilThen

@doofalb  in case you miss 'In the air tonight' here it is again.


----------



## DavidA

Hi everyone, just got home from golf with the GF.
  
@doofalb, where are you located in Hawaii?  I'm in town, right next to the convention center and sorry for ruining our reputation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but I do love my wine and will get up in the afternoon quite often these days.
  
 Tube are no where near as hot as lava, the picture in my avatar was taken from +100ft away and you can still feel the heat.  We tried to use a shovel to pick up some lava to pour it in a mold but the lava is so hot the wood handle of the shovel started to burn.
  
 I tried my SR-009 with a Blue Hawaii and yes it a magical sound but I actually like the SRM-007mk2 that I have better:  1) it was free, 2) way less desk space, and 3) has a little better synergy to me with the genres of music that I listen to, a touch warmer sounding.
  
 Breakfast was left overs, grilled mahimahi with a champagne dill sauce and Caesar salad, not a typical Hawaii breakfast.  My typical breakfast is a loco moko which my GF really likes, one of the few local foods that she likes but only if I make it.
  
 Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving and didn't spend too much on Black Friday.
  
 D


----------



## doofalb

untilthen said:


> @doofalb  in case you miss 'In the air tonight' here it is again.


 
 Lol 
  
 Did you notice that the gorilla was as cool a cat as Phil Collins in the other video...all dressed in black


----------



## DecentLevi

So today I got the Mazda ECC804 (ECC88 / 6DJ8 miniature tube equivalent). As much as I wanted it to be good, it fell short. A semi-lengthy listen with all of my top power tubes, I've found this tube manages to somehow have good dynamics yet somewhat loose / disconnected bass and a mid-treble dip causing much sibilance. @HOWIE13 thanks for your advice on this, but do know miniature tubes in Elise can perform much better. 
  
 OTOH, my *RCA 12AV7* mini driver tubes basically 'decimate' these (mentioned here yesterday). These are much more true to life, detailed, crisp and basically make you feel happy LOL. Also I may have to correct myself, the pairing with these RCA 12AV7's is not only superb with quad EL3N's, but is also even better in some ways with the GEC 6AS7G (more coherent and 'plush' but slightly smaller stage), slotted Bendix 6080 (tight, crisp), and Tung Sol 5998 (more airy / spacious). Though even this is still a bit shy of perfection, as comparison to larger 6SN7's as drivers shows this has a somewhat small soundstage / congested in comparison - the tradeoff though being more tightly articulated / fast / crisp / sweet / detailed however... of which it seems that just maybe a _somewhat _small soundstage is something that all miniature tubes _may _have in common. 
  
 While I would wholeheartedly recommend the RCA 12AV7 driver tubes to any Elise owner, my search still resumes with the anticipated arrival of two more pairs of miniature driver tubes later this week, which were top ranked from this expert miniature tube resource thread.


----------



## DecentLevi

With you guys in mind, I just checked but it looks like the RCA 12AV7 are quite scarce. Luckily I discovered there are also RCA 12AX7 and RCA 12AU7, which many are available cheaply now! All three have identical construction, and I am confident these two will have identical sound as the RCA 12AV7: with the 12A_7 tubes, the only difference between variants U - Z is the gain factor, and many brands made several gain variants of the same tube class. These do need XuLing's adapter though


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> Hi everyone, just got home from golf with the GF.
> 
> @doofalb, where are you located in Hawaii?  I'm in town, right next to the convention center and sorry for ruining our reputation
> 
> ...


 
 David, is this a typical day in Hawaii. Golf with GF and breakfast with loco moko. Make sure your tee off clears the volcano crater.
  
 I heard both SR-009 and SR-007 mk2 with Blue Hawaii and seem to prefer the SR-007 too but at that level they are both desirable.


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer and @Spork67 are you still spinning this Visseaux 6N7G and 5998 combo? A real dynamite. On a scale of warm and bright, I'd say this is on the bright side of neutral. Sparkling clarity and full body.


----------



## doofalb

I had the Elise running for little while in my office without listening to music and after a few of hours I noticed that it emanated some weird odor. I feel I have that taste in my mouth even after having dinner.... Is that normal for NOS tubes?
  
 @DavidA I'm in town too, at UH during the day, in Kaimuki otherwise


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> So today I got the Mazda ECC804 (ECC88 / 6DJ8 miniature tube equivalent). As much as I wanted it to be good, it fell short. A semi-lengthy listen with all of my top power tubes, I've found this tube manages to somehow have good dynamics yet somewhat loose / disconnected bass and a mid-treble dip causing much sibilance. @HOWIE13 thanks for your advice on this, but do know miniature tubes in Elise can perform much better.
> 
> OTOH, my *RCA 12AV7* mini driver tubes basically 'decimate' these (mentioned here yesterday). These are much more true to life, detailed, crisp and basically make you feel happy LOL. Also I may have to correct myself, the pairing with these RCA 12AV7's is not only superb with quad EL3N's, but is also even better in some ways with the GEC 6AS7G (more coherent and 'plush' but slightly smaller stage), slotted Bendix 6080 (tight, crisp), and Tung Sol 5998 (more airy / spacious). Though even this is still a bit shy of perfection, as comparison to larger 6SN7's as drivers shows this has a somewhat small soundstage / congested in comparison - the tradeoff though being more tightly articulated / fast / crisp / sweet / detailed however... of which it seems that just maybe a _somewhat _small soundstage is something that all miniature tubes _may _have in common.
> 
> While I would wholeheartedly recommend the RCA 12AV7 driver tubes to any Elise owner, my search still resumes with the anticipated arrival of two more pairs of miniature driver tubes later this week, which were top ranked from this expert miniature tube resource thread.


 
  
 Sorry you didn't like those. Have you tried E80CC tubes? They need the 12V to 6V adapter. I like them too.
  
 I've tried 12AU7 tubes but found they lacked something in dynamics, though pleasant sounding. My 12AX7's have volume issues-maybe you will have better luck.
  
 I think I'm coming to the end of the road as far as Elise tube rolling is concerned. I must have spent a fortune on tubes and I probably would, in retrospect, have been better purchasing a more expensive amplifier in the first place-perhaps even a Solid State. I think that's where I'll go next anyway.


----------



## UntilThen

@doofalb not exactly sure what you meant by weird odour. I don't leave my tube amp on for a few hour without music playing. I don't leave it unattended too.

Perhaps switch it off and let it cool down then start it up again.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> @connieflyer and @Spork67 are you still spinning this Visseaux 6N7G and 5998 combo? A real dynamite. On a scale of warm and bright, I'd say this is on the bright side of neutral. Sparkling clarity and full body.


 
 I'm mostly using the 5998's, for drivers currently the EL3N, but yes, the visseaux have a lovely soft, warm tone when I just want music to wrap me up and comfort me.


----------



## Oskari

doofalb said:


> I had the Elise running for little while in my office without listening to music and after a few of hours I noticed that it emanated some weird odor. I feel I have that taste in my mouth even after having dinner.... Is that normal for NOS tubes?




There can be a 'new tube smell' (that will pass).


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I'm mostly using the 5998's, for drivers currently the EL3N, but yes, the visseaux have a lovely soft, warm tone when I just want music to wrap me up and comfort me.




You have great drivers and power tube already. I don't think you'll need more to enjoy Elise. There are quite a few on the previous thread that feels happy with EL3N or 6N7G and 5998 combo. I love it too.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> There can be a 'new tube smell' (that will pass).


 
 That's probably it. Now that I think about it, there was a burn in smell when Elise was new. Wouldn't call it weird though.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I think I'm coming to the end of the road as far as Elise tube rolling is concerned. I must have spent a fortune on tubes and I probably would, in retrospect, have been better purchasing a more expensive amplifier in the first place-perhaps even a Solid State. I think that's where I'll go next anyway.


 
 There's a lot of truth to this. Tubes aren't going to drastically change the sound of Elise. If you aren't happy with Elise and standard configuration tubes, it would be folly to throw all kinds of unofficial tubes at it, in the hope that she'll somehow be a flying unicorn.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> There's a lot of truth to this. Tubes aren't going to drastically change the sound of Elise. If you aren't happy with Elise and standard configuration tubes, it would be folly to throw all kinds of unofficial tubes at it, in the hope that she'll somehow be a flying unicorn.


 
 I think what Elise has done for me is introduce me to really good HiFi, with the help of these treads of course.
  
 I didn't realise how good audio could sound through headphones before Elise-but unless I were to take a leap of faith and purchase some of the very expensive GEC/Bendix tubes I don't think I will hear anything better with Elise than with the tubes I already have.


----------



## UntilThen

There's hope on the horizon. There's a new tube amp that will make audio sound better. Just don't let your wife know you stole her pots.


----------



## doofalb

untilthen said:


> @doofalb not exactly sure what you meant by weird odour. I don't leave my tube amp on for a few hour without music playing. I don't leave it unattended too.
> 
> Perhaps switch it off and let it cool down then start it up again.


 
  
 I was playing music, I just wasn't listening to it...had to get some work done today after all, lol. and I was sitting right next to it.
  
 But it's probably the new tube smell as @Oskari and you mention. And only weird as in "never smelled before" and lingering. And I run a lab...so I'm not unfamiliar with "unusual" smells


----------



## DavidA

doofalb said:


> I was playing music, I just wasn't listening to it...had to get some work done today after all, lol. and I was sitting right next to it.
> 
> But it's probably the new tube smell as @Oskari and you mention. And only weird as in "never smelled before" and lingering. And I run a lab...so I'm not unfamiliar with "unusual" smells


 
 had one set of 6922 tubes gave off some odor but it went away after a few hours, could be a coating burning off.  If you got some time I would like to meet up, I'm retired so I have quite a lot of free time but I still do some side jobs running engineering projects and bartend/cook every now and then.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Are we number one yet?




Update:

Yes!

http://www.head-fi.org/pages/stats/top/range/


----------



## doofalb

davida said:


> had one set of 6922 tubes gave off some odor but it went away after a few hours, could be a coating burning off.  If you got some time I would like to meet up, I'm retired so I have quite a lot of free time but I still do some side jobs running engineering projects and bartend/cook every now and then.


 

 That's probably what it is. I'm just a total noob when it comes to anything tube. I figured that you must be retired by the description of your day, lol. Just didn't want to assume. Meeting up sounds great, but we should probably start using PM, so we don't annoy anyone else with our talk story


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I think what Elise has done for me is introduce me to really good HiFi, with the help of these treads of course.
> 
> I didn't realise how good audio could sound through headphones before Elise-but unless I were to take a leap of faith and purchase some of the very expensive GEC/Bendix tubes I don't think I will hear anything better with Elise than with the tubes I already have.


 
 Again a lot of truths in this. I'm agreeing with you more and more. We could be close cousins Howie.


----------



## UntilThen

doofalb said:


> I was playing music, I just wasn't listening to it...had to get some work done today after all, lol. and I was sitting right next to it.
> 
> But it's probably the new tube smell as @Oskari and you mention. And only weird as in "never smelled before" and lingering.* And I run a lab.*..so I'm not unfamiliar with "unusual" smells


 
 I hope you're not Dr Frankenstein.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Again a lot of truths in this. I'm agreeing with you more and more. We could be close cousins Howie.


 
  
 LOL -Didn't you once tell me you had Scottish ancestors?


----------



## DavidA

doofalb said:


> That's probably what it is. I'm just a total noob when it comes to anything tube. I figured that you must be retired by the description of your day, lol. Just didn't want to assume. Meeting up sounds great, but we should probably start using PM, so we don't annoy anyone else with our talk story


 
 You must have lived in Hawaii for a while if you know "talk story" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm on my way out right now so I'll send a PM later when I get home or tomorrow some time, have a great evening.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> spork67 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm mostly using the 5998's, for drivers currently the EL3N, but yes, the visseaux have a lovely soft, warm tone when I just want music to wrap me up and comfort me.
> ...


 
 7236 is probably the only tube I'm still interested in trying - but not at the going rate. If I find some for really cheap I'll give them a shot. Same goes for other exotica - ie: mesh plate anything-that-will-fit (into standard sockets or the adapters I already own) or a [air of HD800.
 I really think with the tubes I already have I'm getting about as much out of Elise as I can. If I spend much more on HP's / amps it will probably be spent on upgrading my STAX gear. But to get significant gains over what I already have would take a significant outlay also.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I really think with the tubes I already have I'm getting about as much out of Elise as I can.


 
 Absolutely. A good combo will stand the test of time. About a year ago, I share these 3 combos.
  
 EL3N and 5998
 Visseaux 6N7G and 5998
 Fivre 6N7G brown base and 5998.
  
 I'm still of the opinion that these sound really good even with later tubes arrival. I can see differing views of 5998 here but I'm still of the opinion that it's a real benchmark tube. I really think it's a power tube with a lot of flair and excitement


----------



## UntilThen

I'm using Mazda 6N7G which is really the same as Visseaux 6N7G. Been using it for the whole of today with 5998. 
  
 It's really good with Dire Straits. I'm listening to it on LP now.


----------



## frederick-rea

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Is this what you meant?
> 
> ...




Fantastic. This is it!!!


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> @connieflyer and @Spork67 are you still spinning this Visseaux 6N7G and 5998 combo? A real dynamite. On a scale of warm and bright, I'd say this is on the bright side of neutral. Sparkling clarity and full body.
> 
> 
> 
> Still roll that combo in, but the last few weeks it has been the EL3N's and Raytheon 6080 graphite plates. Have not been able to five these up yet.


----------



## pctazhp

*TRUE CLASS ACT*: Fivre 6N7G = ECC31 black plates  "with Horn" anno 1942/GEC6AS7G
  
 AND
  
 SOTA headphone stand


----------



## mordy

I feel so guilty - couldn't find anything I wanted to buy on Black Friday..
  
 Well, I wanted to buy an i7 16GB 2TB PC for $499 ($300 off),  but when I decided it had sold out.
  
 Anyhow, I did the same deliberate impulsive thing as pct and bought a pair of GEC 6AS7, Bendix 6080 and a TS 5998 - should be here soon...
  
 We'll see which one I like the best.......


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> I feel so guilty - couldn't find anything I wanted to buy on Black Friday..
> 
> Well, I wanted to buy an i7 16GB 2TB PC for $499 ($300 off),  but when I decided it had sold out.
> 
> ...


 
 Mordy:  I can't tell you what good news this is for me. When the men in white coats come to take me away, I can hope you'll be my padded-cell-mate


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I feel so guilty - couldn't find anything I wanted to buy on Black Friday..
> 
> Well, I wanted to buy an i7 16GB 2TB PC for $499 ($300 off),  but when I decided it had sold out.
> 
> ...


 
 Way to go Mordy. i7 can wait but good tubes can't and if both of you are lock up, I'll bail you out.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *TRUE CLASS ACT*: Fivre 6N7G = ECC31 black plates  "with Horn" anno 1942/GEC6AS7G
> 
> AND
> 
> SOTA headphone stand


 
 That would indeed be a true class act. 6N7G and ECC31 are close cousins. There's some similarities in their tone.
  
 The headphone stand looks like the apparatus used in an old western movie, where you turn the handle and blow up the dynamite.
  
 There are 2 6N7Gs on ebay now. A Visseaux and a Fivre brown base. Quite rare for these to show up.


----------



## UntilThen

frederick-rea said:


> Fantastic. This is it!!!


 
 The unlock code, Blue Hawaii or Pink Panther? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Well for a cool 10 grand and 18 months waiting period, you can have the Blue Hawaii and Stax SR-009, Pink Panther not included.
 http://www.headamp.com/order/blue-hawaii-special-edition/


----------



## mordy

Well folks - here they are:
  




  
 GEC 6AS7G/A1834
  
 First listening impression - a warm, energetic embrace; great FR and sound stage.


----------



## connieflyer

Might like to try a pair of them, missed out on black friday and cyber monday, so maybe I can convince myself to spring for them, if I can find a decent pair.  Looking forward to your impresions


----------



## UntilThen

Warm is a good description of GEC 6as7g. It's certainly a more saturated tone than the Chatham 6as7g which sounds lighter and brighter.

Mordy it will be interesting to see what your impressions are of the these 3 tubes. Gec 6as7g, Bendix 6080wb and Tung Sol 5998.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Well folks - here they are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 SUCH BEAUTY TO BEHOLD


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Might like to try a pair of them, missed out on black friday and cyber monday, so maybe I can convince myself to spring for them, if I can find a decent pair.  Looking forward to your impresions


 

 When the price reaches $10,00 a pair I'll be selling mine and buying Blue Hawaii/SR009. Will need something to keep @mordy and me entertained during our institutional confinement while we are waiting for @UntilThen to bail us out


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> When the price reaches $10,00 a pair I'll be selling mine and buying Blue Hawaii/SR009. Will need something to keep @mordy and me entertained during our institutional confinement while we are waiting for @UntilThen to bail us out


 
 I'll be bailing out Red Elise / HD800S and Blue Hawaii / SR009. I will tell the sheriff I know not the other 2.


----------



## UntilThen

@Spork67 share your Elise and Stax picture here. It's so pretty.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT, pct et al,
  
 Plugged in the 5998 tubes now.
  
 First impression: This is the 6'4" guy - very tall tubes and much bigger than the GEC. These are power tubes as in powerhouse - very strong bass and treble - cymbals sound like they really got whacked very hard; a thumping, strong low end. A laid back and orchestral presentation.
  
 Very powerful and strong sounding tubes, compared to the bubbly and inviting GECs. The mid range is less sweet and vocals sound slightly nasal at this stage, but it is very early in the game and I have to give these tubes more time - much more time.
  




  
 This recording came up on my computer - an early recording of Caribbean folk music. The prominent rhythm instrument is listed as blocks of sand paper (sounds like a washboard). For some reason the same recording posted twice - don't know how to remove one copy lol.


----------



## UntilThen

No sandpaper for you. Try this Vangelis.


----------



## connieflyer

Speaking of Vangelis, I am liking this....


----------



## mordy

It is pretty much sensory overload to try three top tier pairs of tubes at the same time (don't have the stamina that pct has). The Bendix graphite plates are the heaviest and most industrial tubes i have, and from what I read they need at least 1/2 hour to warm up.
  
 Too overloaded with auditory impressions except to say that they sound very nice.
  
 The obligatory picture:
  




  
 These are not the slotted ones but another variant - appear to be NOS.
  
 In the room light there was not much tube glow, but I turned off the lights and tried to coax my camera into portraying some tube magic:
  




  
 Lucked out with my iPhone 6+!
  
 The camera did exaggerate a little bit - never mind; it looks nice!


----------



## connieflyer

Those look like my Raytheon 6080wb graphite tubes and the glow looks about right to me. Mine don't take very long to warm up, but they have a few hours on them now


----------



## connieflyer

Another sleeper


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks @connieflyer for more Vangelis.

@mordy you have all the good power tubes now. Take your time. 

I just saw Hacksaw Ridge. They use 5998 in there. Lots of it.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> @Spork67 share your Elise and Stax picture here. It's so pretty.


 
 For you UT:


----------



## UntilThen

Nice pictures Spork. Nice setup. !

Let's see more owners setup with Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

El3n''s and 5998A's and Sony Haps-1  The 5998A's are just a little bit warmer and sweeter than the 5998.  I had not used these in a while these Gold Aero's are really nice with the El3n.


----------



## pctazhp

*THE REAL McCOY*​  ​ ​


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 How did my set-up end up on your desk LOL?





  
 Anyhow, this is what comes to mind listening to the GEC A1834/6AS7G tubes:
  
  
*Effervescent.*
  
  
 Like a sparkling wine. Happy, light, cheerful personality — "bubbly" — .  Latin effervēscere,  meaning boiling, from ferv, meaning "hot."
  
 In addition, these tubes have grater extension in the frequency range than any of the other tubes I have tried.
  
 End game? Don't know, but could very well be. Plays music with fantastic finesse and fervor.


----------



## UntilThen

These setups looks good.... and they have names too.


----------



## Oskari

Photo night! With such luvly pictures!

Since I'm a lazy *, I'll have to repeat this one:




oskari said:


>




That's such a crappy photo that you wouldn't notice the difference (Lorenz C3g → Valvo C3g/s) anyway.


----------



## UntilThen

Well you have some serious green RCA cables and exotic beer. Never heard of Dinkel. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What's the power tubes? Overall a great picture. A head-fi setup with beer or champagne conveys an intoxicating sound.


----------



## UntilThen

Here's UT's musings for the day or rumblings. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Being an ex-Singaporean, it's good to see fellow ex countrymen getting together to sample some of the best tube amps and high end headphones. Link here, where the post was made on the DNA Stratus thread. http://www.head-fi.org/t/609800/dna-stratus-2a3-amplifier-first-impressions/3105#post_13047235
  
 2 things stands out. 
  
 1. Glenn EL3N tube amp was very well received in the company of great tube amps.
  
 2. Reviewer gave a short, concise, 3 word description of how it sounded with HD800. Oftentimes I find reviews giving descriptions that doesn't give you a clue of what the sound is like. However this is very specific. '_Surprise find: Glenn OTL with HD800, I never know HD800 can sound like that, full bodied, musical and strong bass._' Well done.
  
 So why am I digressing so much in an Elise thread. Well I'm about to get to it in a minute... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The following picture is where I'm trying to get to. Elise equipped with all EL3N tubes makes Beyerdynamic T1 sound like no other tube combinations. I believe @connieflyer (and @HOWIE13 and @Spork67 too) will say the same about this combo with his HD800. Full bodied, musical, strong bass, even wider soundstage and retaining precision, control, clarity and details.
  
 Not forgetting. This setup is perfect for the coming festive season and my contribution to the pictures here.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Well you have some serious green RCA cables and exotic beer. Never heard of Dinkel. :etysmile:
> 
> What's the power tubes? Overall a great picture. A head-fi setup with beer or champagne conveys an intoxicating sound.




That's GEC 6080WA.

Dinkel is German for spelt. That's basically wheat before anybody invented wheat.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen the 6 pack of EL3N has been a favorite of mine for sometime with the the Senn 800, but now that I am trying different combo's using El3N as drivers and other power tubes, I am still impressed with the EL3N's. As of yet I have not found any power tubes that don't sound really great with them.  Last two days have been using the Gold Aero 5998A's and the have given a more lush sound to the amp.  Plenty of bass with the 800's ,  the dynamics of this combo are very rewarding. I like it better than the Tung-Sol   5998, a little more "musical" less dry sound. Listening to Ivan Torrent's Before I leave this World, and the female vocal is clear as a bell.


----------



## louisxiawei

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> How did my set-up end up on your desk LOL?
> 
> ...


 
Salute, Mordy and pct!
  
I feel you ! I have the same setup! Can't help showing off to you gents again and again and again! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
You know what? I just made my decision a few days ago, I will listen to this setup every single day! Not for the special occasion or special guests but for me! Every day! 
  
  
Just sparkling wine? I think the sound is delicate and exquisite enough as vintage Dom Perignon! 





  (Feeling posh!)
  
At the current stage, the R.I.P setup for me. But do let me know if anyone finds better combination setup. Make me overjoy one more time!


----------



## UntilThen

You're correct. Everything goes well with EL3N. For that matter, any tube sounds good in Elise.
  
 Our ears like a change of tone every now and then. It will awaken some sleeping sensory organs. It's like the change of seasons.
  
 For that I'll play you Comfortably Numb.
  

  
 Just as I was about to post this, I see @louisxiawei  RIP combo. I am visibly moved.


----------



## DecentLevi

Let me be the 4th one to acclaim the sound of the GEC 6AS7G "A1834", on this page. Ironically these have been my winning setup in recent days, with the RCA 12AV7 as drivers. Very resolving with a sort of mythical energy (forgive me, the best words I could come up with on a blown-mind)... do try these with driver tubes that are bright / tightly articulated such as various ECC88 / 12A_7 [U V X Z] miniatures, as such I'd also venture to say C3G and ECC31 or FDD20 / '2031' may also pair well. The EL3N driver pairing with these GEC gems has great euphony and 'reach', but the soft / semi dark sound make that better for either classical / ambient music or headphones that are bright / snappy such as T1 rather than HD-650 / HE-560. It seems the GEC's are more meaty / cohesive / textured vs. the EL3N's as powers that are more deep / expansive / multi-layered so having both gives great choice.


----------



## lukeap69

untilthen said:


> . '_Surprise find: Glenn OTL with HD800, I never know HD800 can sound like that, full bodied, musical and strong bass._' Well done.


 
 Just to clarify, I believe the Glenn OTL amp mentioned in the comment has 6-6BL7s power tubes and is a different amp from Glenn EL3N. @jelt2359 has both and IIRC he prefers the GOTL with the HD-800.


----------



## HOWIE13

This thread has become painful for me!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I can't afford all these very expensive GEC and Bendix tubes so which do you think will give me a big sound stage, tight, dynamic deep bass, well projected mids and sparkling treble, without being over bright? (Using T1g2).
 I could pair with a large selection of drivers as I have all the ones we regularly use.
  
 From what I'm reading the GEC 6AS7 may be too soft sounding, maybe??
  
 Thanks for any advice, anybody.


----------



## jelt2359

6bl7 is a great choice imho


----------



## UntilThen

lukeap69 said:


> Just to clarify, I believe the Glenn OTL amp mentioned in the comment has 6-6BL7s power tubes and is a different amp from Glenn EL3N. @jelt2359 has both and IIRC he prefers the GOTL with the HD-800.


 
 Probably.. I realised later that he has both but I think there was a reference to Glenn EL3N specifically mentioned.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/609800/dna-stratus-2a3-amplifier-first-impressions/3105#post_13047277
  
 Nevertheless no matter. Everyone has preference. I doubt there will be one setup that suits all.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> This thread has become painful for me!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hey HOWIE 13,
  
 I'm using T1g2 as well. Guess I can share some of my opinions.
  
 With the combo of EL3N, GEC 6AS7 is not a soft sounding tube at all. Accurately speaking, it is fineness and organically abundant through whole range sounding. There is no so-called tube creamy lush sound from GEC 6AS7G. It is just musical without compromising anything in terms of clarity, dynamic, low, mid, high, soundstage, multi-layer, detail, smoothness, etc (Well, almost every aspect of SQ, at least I can't find any fault)
  
 T1 is a bright headphone, without doubt. You will easily get some obvious sibilance in treble from some certain recordings or hight-pitch singers like Kat Edmonson. 
  
 With the help of lushness from EL3N, GEC 6as7g doesn't show any harsh, spiky, over-bright treble. I might assume if GEC 6AS7G with stock Tung-sol 6sn7, the sound might be getting bright on T1.
  
 I will say Mullard 6080 with Philips EL3N gives soft sounding by comparison. Bass is slightly more punchy than GEC 6AS7G, but lack fineness, like mushy creamy soft punchy. Not quite enjoyable experience if I listen to big dynamic orchestral pieces like Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninoff.
  
 Some review says Mullard 6080's signature is similar to GEC 6AS7G but with more lushness. That's the main reason I bought the Mullard 6080 first as upgraded power tube.
  
 Personally, I don't agree with that review at all after I tried them both. If soundstage is one circle larger, every other aspect is also much better, how can it be similar?
  
 Hope my view helps you a bit.


----------



## jelt2359

untilthen said:


> Probably.. I realised later that he has both but I think there was a reference to Glenn EL3N specifically mentioned.
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/609800/dna-stratus-2a3-amplifier-first-impressions/3105#post_13047277
> 
> Nevertheless no matter. Everyone has preference. I doubt there will be one setup that suits all.




Yup. I have both. I think we were all impressed by what a standout the GOTL is, with the 6bl7's and the hd800. Thing is, among the three of us none use hd800 as primary headphones. One likes the Abyss, one likes the Utopia, and I like the LFF Code-X. For these headphones in general the GEL3N is probably a better bet.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> It seems the GEC's are more meaty / cohesive / textured


 
 I am reading everyone's description of GEC 6as7g tone. I have sample these tubes a good few hours at the meet on a Woo Audio Wa2 with a HD800 and I think in this setup, it is ideal.
  
 I agree with DL's description of the tone. Obviously there are other attributes.


----------



## UntilThen

jelt2359 said:


> Yup. I have both. I think we were all impressed by what a standout the GOTL is, with the 6bl7's and the hd800. Thing is, among the three of us none use hd800 as primary headphones. One likes the Abyss, one likes the Utopia, and I like the LFF Code-X. For these headphones in general the GEL3N is probably a better bet.


 
 Thanks for the feedback. Who would have known the GEL3N is a better bet for Abyss, Utopia and LFF Code-X. 
  
 I have no doubt the GOTL with a properly Glenn designed circuitry for 6BL7 would sound good. This amp is probably a tube rollers dream.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> This thread has become painful for me!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Let me try and make it less painful for you.  Let's just have a look at the power tubes that you have. 5998, 7236, 6xEL3N, some 6080s. I think that's a good selection already.
  
 I would suggest going ahead with T1 G2 instead of worrying too much about getting GEC and Bendix. That will be a much bigger difference to your AKG-701. Whether the GEC or Bendix will appeal heaps more for you, only you can determine that and it's a costly exercise to find that out. Probably go to a meet or meet up with fellow Elise owners to have a listen. Just knock on hypnos1 door. 
  
 Since we're close cousins, I'll even loan you the pair of Bendix for as long as you need to try it.


----------



## Spork67

howie13 said:


> This thread has become painful for me!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 As per UT's post above.
 I have the T1G1 (modded to remove some of the 6k "spike" - so close to the G2 sound signature).
 For the sound you describe I'm happy with EL3N drives and TS 5998, or "the six pack" of EL3N.
 For a slightly warmer and less bright sound I pop in the Visseaux 6N7G drivers.
  
 I wonder if a few of us could get together for some kind of "tube exchange" arrangement, so that instead of "having" to buy every variant of every tube we could just buy a few and loan them to one another to help each other make educated purchasing decisions. Chasing the perfect sound can quickly get expensive. I know I've spent almost as much on tubes and adapters as I did on Elise in the first place, and many here have spent much (much!) more.


----------



## whirlwind

jelt2359 said:


> 6bl7 is a great choice imho


 
  
 I agree....even though I prefer the 6BX7 but a slight margin.
  
 Either is wonderful with the HD800 but again...different ears and gears.


----------



## jelt2359

whirlwind said:


> I agree....even though I prefer the 6BX7 but a slight margin.
> 
> Either is wonderful with the HD800 but again...different ears and gears.




I'll try that one day. Too much gain with the 6bl7 for me, but it's what my amp came with (I bought it used). Do the 6bl7 and 6bx7 sound very different?


----------



## jelt2359

untilthen said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Who would have known the GEL3N is a better bet for Abyss, Utopia and LFF Code-X.
> 
> I have no doubt the GOTL with a properly Glenn designed circuitry for 6BL7 would sound good. This amp is probably a tube rollers dream.




It's an impedance issue, especially for the Code-X and Abyss. Low impedance planars don't tend to play well with OTL amps. The Utopia is different, more versatile. I expect it to work well with more types of amps. 

That being said if we're talking about HD800 or T1 (and I own both, having specifically bought the T1 for use with an OTL), I reach for an OTL amp every time.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg this combo sounds so good I'm afraid I have to withdraw my loan offer @HOWIE13  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It's even better with T1 although I have the HE-560 in the picture.
  
 This pairing is definitely brighter and more snappy.


----------



## UntilThen

jelt2359 said:


> It's an impedance issue, especially for the Code-X and Abyss. Low impedance planars don't tend to play well with OTL amps. The Utopia is different, more versatile. I expect it to work well with more types of amps.
> 
> That being said if we're talking about HD800 or T1 (and I own both, having specifically bought the T1 for use with an OTL), I reach for an OTL amp every time.


 
 Agree. It's the same experience I have with Elise. In my opinion she sounds best with high impedance headphones particularly HD800 and T1.
  
 HE560 less so even though Elise will still drive it.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Hey HOWIE 13,
> 
> I'm using T1g2 as well. Guess I can share some of my opinions.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you so much, Louis.
 I have the Mullard 6080, so what you have told me has given me a basis for comparison. I didn't think the Mullard  was very musically involving, a bit emotionally sterile, when I listened to it several weeks ago but I didn't make a note of the drivers I was using at the time so I'll use them again now you have given me a yardstick for comparisons. Cheers.


----------



## HOWIE13

jelt2359 said:


> 6bl7 is a great choice imho


 
 Thanks-I have those but have never used them on their own as power tubes. Will give them a go, for sure,


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Omg this combo sounds so good I'm afraid I have to withdraw my loan offer @HOWIE13
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's okay UT. I appreciate your help and also that time never stands still with Elise, everyday brings new pleasurable discoveries. Those drivers in the photo look like C3g's ? Valvo or Lorenz, but what are the power tubes?
  
 EDIT: Oh I get it-those are the Bendix! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (I'm very slow today)


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Let me try and make it less painful for you.  Let's just have a look at the power tubes that you have. 5998, 7236, 6xEL3N, some 6080s. I think that's a good selection already.
> 
> I would suggest going ahead with T1 G2 instead of worrying too much about getting GEC and Bendix. That will be a much bigger difference to your AKG-701. Whether the GEC or Bendix will appeal heaps more for you, only you can determine that and it's a costly exercise to find that out. Probably go to a meet or meet up with fellow Elise owners to have a listen. Just knock on hypnos1 door.
> 
> Since we're close cousins, I'll even loan you the pair of Bendix for as long as you need to try it.


 
 That's reassuring UT; yes the problem is we are all spoiled by Elise sounding so good with so many tubes.
  
 That''s a very generous offer you make but I don't think you should be sending your Bendix half way round the world. I would hate for them to get lost or broken.
  
 I did offer to meet UT at a spooky Inn in Suffolk maybe we should make it a threesome?
 Seriously though, I do need to get out more to meets. Unfortunately I had to miss the recent London CanJam because of sciatica-probably caused by spending too much time lounging on the sofa listening to Elise. That's the wife's diagnosis anyway-'Elise induced sciatica'!


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> As per UT's post above.
> I have the T1G1 (modded to remove some of the 6k "spike" - so close to the G2 sound signature).
> For the sound you describe I'm happy with EL3N drives and TS 5998, or "the six pack" of EL3N.
> For a slightly warmer and less bright sound I pop in the Visseaux 6N7G drivers.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for your advice, Spork.
 I have all those power tubes and like them all, so maybe I won't achieve a lot more with GEC or Bendix, but my compulsive behaviour won't let me rest just now.
 It's interesting, in common with a lot of others, you like the 6N7G driver tubes. I have RCA and Brimar. 6N7GT and while both are very nice sounding, I can't get loud volume out of them. I'm struggling to achieve moderate volumes at noon, even with 5998's. Mind you I'm listening to lower level recorded Classical.
 I will try some 6N7G's. perhaps they will synergise better.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> Thank you so much, Louis.
> I have the Mullard 6080, so what you have told me has given me a basis for comparison. I didn't think the Mullard  was very musically involving, a bit emotionally sterile, when I listened to it several weeks ago but I didn't make a note of the drivers I was using at the time so I'll use them again now you have given me a yardstick for comparisons. Cheers.


 
 My pleasure HOWIE 13.
  
 Maybe just give you another yardstick:
  
 Mullard 6080 + stock 6sn7 = sounds like SS amp such as my previous amp Lehmann linear (nothing lush or creamy at all), Mullard 6080 + stock 6ns7 has more detail and better dynamic than stock 6h13c + 6sn7 but lack musical tone and quite analytical.
  
 EL3N + Mullard 6080 has much lusher and more musical sound than stock 6sn7 + Mullard 6080. (which is consistent with UT's experience as well )
  
 EL3N + GEC 6AS7G, creamy lushness disappear yet fine musical tone (not analytical at all) 
  
 The sound might also get affected by your DAC, since I upgraded my dac from ARCAM irdac to Exasound e12 with ESS9018 chip, so the sonic sound character might vary according to your dac.
  
  With ARCAM irdac, 6SN7 + Mullard 6080 on ARCAM irdac is much more musical than the one on Exasound e12.
  
 So I think factorial control matters.


----------



## jelt2359

Now listening to the 3x6bl7 on my Apex Teton with the HD800. Incredible! The HD800 might just make it back to my regular rotation of phones.
  
 Is the EL3N a drop in replacement for the 6SN7 with the right adaptor? If so I might need to get one and try it with my GOTL and Apex Teton.


----------



## mordy

Hi jelt2359,
  
 The EL3N is a direct drop in replacement for the 6SN7 with the correct adapters from Mrs Xuling.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> My pleasure HOWIE 13.
> 
> Maybe just give you another yardstick:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks again Louis for that comprehensive review. I've got three DAC's, so plenty of choice.
 I'm thinking maybe the GEC 6AS7 may be the ones for me to go for.
 My only reservation is whether they will be taught and rhythmic enough for some instrumental music-but then I've got several present options for that type of sound anyway.


----------



## mordy

Hi louisxiawei,
  
  
 Both these tubes EL3N and GEC 6AS7 should have a life span of at least 10,000 hours, so I wouldn't worry about using them every day. ENJOY!


----------



## mordy

Just read a very interesting (and hilarious) article about PsVane tubes - mainly because of the Chinglish (English translation of Chinese).
  
 These people are a dedicated bunch - the average work day is 12.5 hours and they work 28.5 days/month.
  
 Their goal is to produce the best tubes in the world. Somebody on eBay is selling a non-working GEC A1834 tube for a few bucks. I say, let them dissect it and try to make a true replica!
  
 http://en.psvane.com/page-13.html
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6as7-Brown-base-not-working-for-display-only-/332045932583?hash=item4d4f7ad827:g:fh8AAOSw6n5Xp~ex
  
*GEC 6AS7/A1834 *(with the EL3N)
  
*Whatever everybody is praising these tubes for is true. *From time to time they come up for around $200/pair on eBay. I held out for the longest time, didn't want to spend so much on a pair of tubes, but now I don't regret at all shelling out the money.
  
 DL: Very resolving with a sort of mythical energy
  
 pct: THE REAL McCOY
  
 louisxiawei: the R.I.P setup for me. *It is just musical without compromising anything in terms of clarity, dynamic, low, mid, high, soundstage, multi-layer, detail, smoothness, etc *
  
 hypnos1: You all know what he has been saying about these tubes for the longest time - his long time favorite power tubes
  
 Me: Heads and shoulders above the rest!


----------



## 2359glenn

jelt2359 said:


> Now listening to the 3x6bl7 on my Apex Teton with the HD800. Incredible! The HD800 might just make it back to my regular rotation of phones.
> 
> Is the EL3N a drop in replacement for the 6SN7 with the right adaptor? If so I might need to get one and try it with my GOTL and Apex Teton.


 

 It will work with my OTL with this adapter.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-EL3N-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/191769639044?hash=item2ca65c7884:g:-W4AAOSw5IJWggQB


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Just read a very interesting (and hilarious) article about PsVane tubes - mainly because of the Chinglish (English translation of Chinese).
> 
> These people are a dedicated bunch - the average work day is 12.5 hours and they work 28.5 days/month.
> 
> ...


 

 Great post Mordy))) You are now the official owner of name:
  
*HEADS AND SHOULDERS ABOVE THE REST!*​


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> How did my set-up end up on your desk LOL?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Ah well, better late than never...my laptop time has been severely restricted just lately - feel like Shane MKII lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I agree with everything you have said here and in later posts - along with other passionate/lucky owners' impressions of the GEC 6AS7G family. I am *SO *relieved y'all are finding the same results as myself, and that I haven't indeed been fooling myself all this time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Your "fantastic finesse", for me, sums up this tube to perfection - along with exquisite _*refinement*_...a quality that transcends mere statements like 'clarity', 'clean sound', 'extended FR', 'fine detail' etc. etc. It is a sound that also really needs to be heard to properly appreciate - words, no matter how many, can't fully convey the 'magic' of this tube...to *most* peoples' ears, that is! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. In addition, I personally feel Elise manages - as with so many driver tubes also - to bring out the very best in this power tube, and that said tube manages (usually!) to bring out the best in _most_ drivers LOL!...and is therefore _*versatile*_, on top of _*refined*_ - a rare combination, I suspect.
  
 I suppose we shouldn't really be _too_ surprised at this, since given the length of time this tube has been admired and sought after, any price premium cannot really now (IMHO) be down purely to 'hype' and/or 'simply must have' just for the sake of it...quality ALWAYS stands the test of time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and all the better if you can get them for $200 a pair?! - methinks you've got to be REAL lucky to get a decent pair for that price, lol!!...especially considering the number of Elise converts here alone!!!  GOOD LUCK TO ALL though - I can only hope that folks do indeed manage to strike gold in this way - forget Klondike!!
  
 May you and your GECs live long and prosper, mon ami...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  


louisxiawei said:


> Salute, Mordy and pct!
> 
> I feel you ! I have the same setup! Can't help showing off to you gents again and again and again!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi louis...Dom Perignon indeed - at the very least lol!!...(and splashing out on these wonderful tubes will bring joy to last MUCH longer than the bubbly! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







). I'll certainly drink your health with a bottle or 2 of DP...so long as you're paying!  But CHEERS! to you too notwithstanding...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps @HOWIE13...as others have already mentioned - NO WAY can these tubes be called 'soft'...think of mordy's effervescent 'bubbles'...Dom Perignon style, don't forget!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HOWIE13

@UntilThen  
  
_'NO WAY can these tubes be called 'soft'...think of mordy's effervescent 'bubbles'...Dom Perignon style, don't forget!!_ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...'
  
  
 Oh well, yes, when it's put like that, I understand.....


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> feel like Shane MKII lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have to laugh at that.
  
 Seems like GEC has just won the popular vote here.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> @UntilThen
> 
> _'NO WAY can these tubes be called 'soft'...think of mordy's effervescent 'bubbles'...Dom Perignon style, don't forget!!_
> 
> ...


 
 I don't know who coined the GEC 6as7g 'soft'. It is textured and pairs well with HD800. I've no doubt it will pair well with T1.
  
 It is not the tone of the Bendix 6080wb or Tung Sol 7236 though. So if you like a leaner more defined tone, the GEC 6as7g is not it. If on the other hand you like a champagne bubbly tone, that's probably it. It's hard to describe a tube's tone because you get different descriptions used in a different way. You have to listen to it.
  
 However at $400 a pair, I'll pass.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> @UntilThen
> 
> _'NO WAY can these tubes be called 'soft'...think of mordy's effervescent 'bubbles'...Dom Perignon style, don't forget!!_
> 
> ...


 
  
 Enlightened must you be, H13...for better or worse lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  


untilthen said:


> I have to laugh at that.
> 
> Seems like GEC has just won the popular vote here.


 
  
 Thanks UT...I rarely manage to get people laughing - have been the 'serious' type FAR too long in my life alas...but am trying to mend my ways lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 On the subject of 'popular vote', I feel I must share something that I do hope @mordy won't object to : he and I go back a long ways - to LittleDot days - and I must confess I have _*never before*_ noticed him either 1. Spend so much on tubes! or 2. Be so _*effervescent*_ about _*any*_ tube..._*ever!!*_  Am I correct mordy?...please put me right if I speak falsely LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

Indeed. I was very surprised that Mordy spring for not just the GEC 6as7g but Tung Sol 5998 and Bendix 6080wb at the same time.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> Indeed. I was very surprised that Mordy spring for not just the GEC 6as7g but Tung Sol 5998 and Bendix 6080wb at the same time.


 
 Does he have a money tree that he is not talking about? or a goose that lays tubes instead of golden eggs


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Enlightened must you be, H13...for better or worse lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I fully expect @UntilThen will be demanding a recount


----------



## UntilThen

I came out of the shower and there's 5 new posts. This thread is 'alive' with a possible recount and I want to know who didn't vote.


----------



## UntilThen

I thought I'll try hand held time exposure but it seems the LED blue light has a mind of it's own.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> I thought I'll try hand held time exposure but it seems the LED blue light has a mind of it's own.


 
 I like the action blur of the tubes but yeah, the blue light is a little too much.  Does you camera have flash with rear curtain sync, if it does you can use the flash set to a lower than correct exposure and use the flash at the end to sort of freeze the motion.


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps you were a little cold coming out of the shower and it caused you to shake a little!  Thread count add one more!


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 When you are right, you are right! (But then you always are...)
  
 What happened is that DL bought some tubes from a tube collector in Greece who for some reason is selling off his collection from some 40(?) years of collecting. I PMd DL and got an idea of the prices. Then pct bought from the same person and both stated that he is a true gentleman to deal with, something I found absolutely true.
  
 I bought a pair of the GECs, a pair of Bendix and a single 5998 to match the one I have. Arrived in 5 days, extremely well packaged. It seemed as the opportunity to get top quality tubes that measure well at decent prices without the hassle of an (uncertain) auction.
  
 I am very happy with my purchase.
  
 UT, the GEC 6AS7 gets not only the popular vote but the electoral vote as well.....


----------



## louisxiawei

mordy said:


> Hi louisxiawei,
> 
> 
> Both these tubes EL3N and GEC 6AS7 should have a life span of at least 10,000 hours, so I wouldn't worry about using them every day. ENJOY!


 
 WOW, really?!!
  
 Some sellers told me the sound of GEC 6AS7 will get deteriorated after 2000 hours? I will find out.
  
 But stockpile some EL3N and buy a backup pair of GEC 6AS7 at a better pirce is the next thing I plan to do.


----------



## jelt2359

mordy said:


> Hi jelt2359,
> 
> The EL3N is a direct drop in replacement for the 6SN7 with the correct adapters from Mrs Xuling.


 
  


2359glenn said:


> It will work with my OTL with this adapter.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-EL3N-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/191769639044?hash=item2ca65c7884:g:-W4AAOSw5IJWggQB


 
  
 Thanks. Do I need the dual el3n to single 6sn7, or single el3n to single 6sn7? I see some with the latter.


----------



## mordy

Hi jelt2359,
  
 In the Elise, using the EL3N as driver tubes, you do not need the dual adapters. If you want to use the EL3N as power tubes in the Elise, you will need the dual adapters since four EL3N tubes are necessary to get enough power.


----------



## jelt2359

mordy said:


> Hi jelt2359,
> 
> In the Elise, using the EL3N as driver tubes, you do not need the dual adapters. If you want to use the EL3N as power tubes in the Elise, you will need the dual adapters since four EL3N tubes are necessary to get enough power.


 
 Got it, thanks. So I will need two adaptors to use them in two different ways? The dual adaptors to replace 6AS7, and the single adaptor to replace 6SN7?


----------



## Spork67

jelt2359 said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi jelt2359,
> ...


 
 Spot on - the "6 pack" is a great sound at a reasonable $ - shame the adapters cost as much as the tubes.


----------



## mordy

You may elect to use different driver tubes. In that case you just need a pair of the dual adapters.
  
 The EL3N adapters are not the most aesthetically pleasing - some people call them bathtubs LOL. A way to make them look better is to cover them with tape or shrinkwrap or paint.


----------



## DecentLevi

That whole thing about the GEC being 'soft' must have been something 'lost in translation' from a post of mine yesterday. I was saying that it sounds soft when paired with EL3N's as drivers in the Elise. And by "soft", what I meant was the dynamics, more specifically the "transient response", which refers to the sharpness of that initial "attack" or "slam" of the likes of a drum sound - and by this meaning, the GEC's are soft especially in that combination, but has more to do with their pairing with the EL3N's on the Elise. I do think this has the possibility to change with a properly implemented EL3N amp however.
  
 Louie, their are basically two configurations of the EL3N with Elise. drivers or powers. As drivers, use two single EL3N adapters, and as powers use two dual EL3N adapters (either two EL3N's as drivers, or four as powers). Personally, my extensive testing has shown the quad setup to have more potential, in terms of bigger soundstage and layering (absolutely world class and impeccable at these, and beating the GEC's on this regard as well)


----------



## HOWIE13

Just want to thank everyone who has given me such helpful advice, together with the usual humour so characteristic of this marvellous thread.
  
 Looks like I'll start with the GEC 6AS7, but as H1 has intimated, I'll probably end up trying them all. I'll just have to wait until after Christmas.


----------



## 2359glenn

jelt2359 said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi jelt2359,
> ...


 

 You cannot use the EL3N as output tubes in my OTL. The Elise uses the 6AS7 with the 2   1/2s of the tube paralleled and as a cathode follower.
 In my OTL it is used in SRPP 1/2 is a amplifier with a gain of 3 and 1/2 is a constant current source for the first 1/2.
 Maybe the two EL3N to 6SN7 could be used in the output position but I don't think so. Can't handle enough current and the gain will be to high.
  
 Even though the Elise and my OTL use the same output tube the output section of the amps are totally different.


----------



## jelt2359

2359glenn said:


> You cannot use the EL3N as output tubes in my OTL. The Elise uses the 6AS7 with the 2   1/2s of the tube paralleled and as a cathode follower.
> In my OTL it is used in SRPP 1/2 is a amplifier with a gain of 3 and 1/2 is a constant current source for the first 1/2.
> Maybe the two EL3N to 6SN7 could be used in the output position but I don't think so. Can't handle enough current and the gain will be to high.
> 
> Even though the Elise and my OTL use the same output tube the output section of the amps are totally different.


 
 Thanks. So for the input tube on the GOTL, do I need dual EL3N to single 6SN7? Or single EL3N to single 6SN7? Or either?


----------



## whirlwind

jelt2359 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > You cannot use the EL3N as output tubes in my OTL. The Elise uses the 6AS7 with the 2   1/2s of the tube paralleled and as a cathode follower.
> ...


 
 Using in the GOTL as driver...you need dual EL3N to 6SN7


----------



## pctazhp

Just want to remind everyone it's really all about music. *DID SOMEONE SAY "MUSIC"??????*


----------



## connieflyer

Interesting to be sure.  But it seems to lack the ambience of my old 45 rpm player with a single four inch woofer, whizzer cone speaker set up. Of course it could be that it was missing the scratches and the nice wavy sound of the record warps, but hey, nice to hear it anyways!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Interesting to be sure.  But it seems to lack the ambience of my old 45 rpm player with a single four inch woofer, whizzer cone speaker set up. Of course it could be that it was missing the scratches and the nice wavy sound of the record warps, but hey, nice to hear it anyways!


 
THE GLORY DAYS


----------



## mordy

My first piece of Hi Fi equipment was a portable record changer in a suitcase configuration - the KLH 11. Bought it in 1967. I arrived on the US shores with 1 1/2 suitcases of records and a few clothes and needed to play my records in my dorm room.
  




  




  
 Used it for a number of years and sold it to someone who traveled overseas and used it for many more years - a real quality piece.


----------



## pctazhp

@mordy. Cool pictures and story about your KLH 11. This Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7WGT/GEC 6AS7G combo recreates the KLH sound. Very clean and nice controlled bass.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> This Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7WGT/GEC 6AS7G combo recreates the KLH sound. Very clean and nice controlled bass.


 
  
 It's Summer here now and I for one am so happy to see pictures of Elise with great tubes, headphone and unique stand. Gone are the days of Frankenstein builds - phew  Remember the days of external power supplies and 6x6BL7? Anyone wanting that should get Glenn to make them a customised tube amp for that purpose but to replicate that in Elise is certainly going a bridge too far. Glad that's gone with the changing of seasons too.
  
 Pct, your picture is so classy. GEC 6as7g with Sylvania 6SN7wgt in Elise and Schitt Bifrost and HD800S. It's a simple and elegant head-fi setup. By no means cheap but also not outrageously expensive. It just shows really good sound can be achieved with careful selection of components for your setup.
  
 Enjoy.


----------



## UntilThen

If you switch the power tubes to Bendix 6080wb, here's how it will look. This combo sounds great but I'm really digging C3G with Bendix 6080wb now. So many good variations.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's Summer here now and I for one am so happy to see pictures of Elise with great tubes, headphone and unique stand. Gone are the days of Frankenstein builds - phew  Remember the days of external power supplies and 6x6BL7? Anyone wanting that should get Glenn to make them a customised tube amp for that purpose but to replicate that in Elise is certainly going a bridge too far. Glad that's gone with the changing of seasons too.
> 
> Pct, your picture is so classy. GEC 6as7g with Sylvania 6SN7wgt in Elise and Schitt Bifrost and HD800S. It's a simple and elegant head-fi setup. By no means cheap but also not outrageously expensive. It just shows really good sound can be achieved with careful selection of components for your setup.
> 
> Enjoy.


 

 Thanks UT for your very nice words. You have had a lot to do with introducing me to Elise and realizing its full potential. It truly has a very special price/performance ratio. I think I have to be honest with myself and realize that anything beyond where I'm at now would be pure obsession having little chance of significantly adding to my enjoyment of recorded music, if at all.
  
 BTW, EL3N remains my strong driver of choice. Thanks so much to you and @hypnos1.
  
 I still have trouble getting my head wrapped around the concept of summer in December)))
  
 Best wishes to you and your family.


----------



## UntilThen

Well I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept of winter in December in your part of the world. I remember touching ground in Tokyo in December and it was cold and it's almost Christmas.
  
 Thank @hypnos1. He's the pathfinder where Elise is concerned. I'm just doing my usual 3am tweet for the last year. 
  
 I've met some really nice folks here who have shared with me their lives and their enjoyment of Elise. Their praise of Elise is genuine. You can get better but I don't think you need better. It's as good as it gets for your sanity. 
  
 Awww thanks for your wishes. I wish the same for you and your family. Let it snow, let it snow.


----------



## UntilThen

Who is Jean-Michel Jarre.


----------



## mordy

Here is everything you want to know about him:
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Michel_Jarre
  
 Has sold over 80 million albums......


----------



## Oskari

I bought a couple something like half a century ago. Well, maybe half that.


----------



## UntilThen

I've been listening to his albums on Tidal. Interesting music. A fusion of electronic, rock, new age, space age and just about any age.


----------



## UntilThen

I like vocals though and nothing like some soulful tunes on a Sunday afternoon. @louisxiawei  you ask about C3g and 5998 combo. Well you'll get smokey mist rising with these tubes on this song. It will be surreal.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  

  
 C3g and 5998


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> I like vocals though and nothing like some soulful tunes on a Sunday afternoon. @louisxiawei  you ask about C3g and 5998 combo. Well you'll get smokey mist rising with these tubes on this song. It will be surreal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Thanks again, UT.
  
 Any reliable sellers for C3G and 5998?


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks again, UT.
> 
> Any reliable sellers for C3G and 5998?


 
 Just what's on ebay. This looks good but you may have to move fast or it's gone.  It's from Czech Republic.
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2x-Siemens-C3g-Tested-100-Low-Noise-Long-life-A-F-Pentodes-10-000-hrs-A/331953473333?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D39923%26meid%3Deefa081dc2344845bcbe4a68e6243e20%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D112215570404
  
 This too. I think it's a pair for the price...
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/C3G-preamp-tubes-dual-triode-NOS-Lorenz-Siemens-300B-driver/112215570404?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D39923%26meid%3D6dbf2cdfd05f466a85b271d9317e15a0%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D201487044932
  
 and don't forget you need these adapters too.
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-C3G-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-or-Woo-WA5-/201487044932?hash=item2ee9905144:g:JTMAAOSwZ1lWc-Dd
  
 As for 5998, why don't you listen with c3g and gec 6as7g first before you plonk your gold coins on a pair of 5998.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Just what's on ebay. This looks good but you may have to move fast or it's gone.  It's from Czech Republic.
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2x-Siemens-C3g-Tested-100-Low-Noise-Long-life-A-F-Pentodes-10-000-hrs-A/331953473333?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D39923%26meid%3Deefa081dc2344845bcbe4a68e6243e20%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D112215570404
> 
> This too. I think it's a pair for the price...
> ...


 
 Thanks UT.
  
 I got the c3g adapter and you know what, also find this one, plenty of stock.
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-x-Matched-Pair-2-Tubes-C3g-Gold-Pins-Siemens-NOS-German-Valve-Tubes-/111934835740?hash=item1a0fd60c1c:g:ZG4AAOSwYaFWd6-A
  
 Tung sol 5998 seems to be expensive in UK


----------



## UntilThen

Ha I just have a brilliant idea. Why don't you make a low ball offer to @pctazhp for his 5998 since he's not so impressed with it.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Here is everything you want to know about him:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Michel_Jarre
> 
> Has sold over 80 million albums......


 
 That's interesting. I never heard of him before. His father Maurice is very well known for his film scores, such as Lawrence of Arabia and Doctor Zhivago.


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> Thanks UT.
> 
> I got the c3g adapter and you know what, also find this one, plenty of stock.
> 
> ...


 
 Ah ha. That looks like a good offer for genuine Siemens C3g. Get on it. These last 10,000 hours as long as you don't bounce it off the walls.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> Ah ha. That looks like a good offer for genuine Siemens C3g. Get on it. These last 10,000 hours as long as you don't bounce it off the walls.


 

  
 Back from GEC 6AS7 + EL3N to Stock tube combo. Still sounds good enough.
  
 What is that called? Diminishing returns!


----------



## mordy

Hi louisx,
  
 Everything sounds good in the Elise....
  
 Re the C3g, please remember that they are much more fragile than other tubes. To insert them or remove, just push straight down or pull straight up. Rocking them back and forth out of the sockets (tube rolling) can cause the glass envelope to crack. The best way to remove them is to use a small flat blade blade screwdriver and work yourself around the tube base, lifting it up a little bit at a time until free.
  
 Meanwhile, I am enjoying the GEC 6AS7 with the EL3N immensely - I simply have no desire,( at least ATM), to use any other tubes.


----------



## Spork67

What would be considered a "fair price" for a NOS pair of GEC 6AS7?


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Back from GEC 6AS7 + EL3N to Stock tube combo. Still sounds good enough.
> 
> What is that called? Diminishing returns!


 

 Gruel is good enough to keep me alive. I prefer Caviar. Sorry. I couldn't resist


----------



## DecentLevi

louisxiawei said:


> Back from GEC 6AS7 + EL3N to Stock tube combo. Still sounds good enough.
> 
> What is that called? Diminishing returns!


 
 Hmmm I would challenge that notion, if I currently had C3G's that is. I'd recon the validity of this comparison would be dependent on a good headphone and well mastered source files.
  


spork67 said:


> What would be considered a "fair price" for a NOS pair of GEC 6AS7?


 
 Given their great performance and the fact that I've seen them from $200 - $1,000 (IIRC), I'd say a very fair average price would be $400. So I take it my friend Stavros is out of them?


----------



## mordy

Hi Spork67,
  
 I have been following these tubes for a few months (not including shipping in these prices). The lowest prices were around $46 for one single tube, with other single tubes going for $52-87 and up - obviously condition and test values if any, make a difference.
  
 Pairs were going the lowest for around $210 and up.
  
 Just go to eBay, type in A1834 or GEC 6AS7. Then look at the left column and scroll down to Sold Listings. When you click you will see the selling prices in green for the past month or two. (If an item did not sell, the price would be in red - doesn't happen often with these tubes.
  
 The going rate seems to be around $400 and up for a pair.


----------



## louisxiawei

mordy said:


> Hi louisx,
> 
> Everything sounds good in the Elise....
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the tip of C3G, I guess I will just plug c3g into the adapter, and plug in and out the c3g with adapters until they wear out.
  
 As for  the EL3N + GEC 6AS7. 5000~10000 hours of lifespan is a problem. From my own system, only T1 can justify the beauty of EL3N + GEC 6AS7G. But when I use Elise as preamp for my active speaker Ruark MR1. To be honest,  the stock tubes got more power and offer grand and refined enough sounding to it. So I guess, different the equipments varies.
  
  


pctazhp said:


> Gruel is good enough to keep me alive. I prefer Caviar. Sorry. I couldn't resist


 





 Hahaha, I agree.  As ancient Chinese old saying: 由俭入奢易，由奢入俭难 from Sima Guang, a scholar-official from Song dynasty.
  
 Which means: It is easy for the frugal to become extravagant, but very difficult to reverse the procedure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So, BE RICH and Bon appetit with Caviar !


----------



## mordy

Hi louisx,
  
 Interesting that your stock tubes sound completely satisfying with your Elise preamp setup. Anything less than the GEC/EL3N sounds less satisfying in my humble system using the Elise as a preamp: Polk Monitor50 speakers, SW10 subwoofer, and a 1980's 110W Sony integrated amp.


----------



## Spork67

> spork67 said:
> 
> 
> > What would be considered a "fair price" for a NOS pair of GEC 6AS7?
> ...


 
 He's not out, but instead of naming a price he asked me to "make a fair offer".
 That makes it (even) harder to decide, because at the moment I'm using the STAX setup more than Elise + T1's and not certain about spending yet more $ chasing "perfection" with tubes and dynamic HPs.
  
 Can someone summarise the differences between these tubes and TS 5998, with EL3N drivers?
 If I can get a decent price for the 5998's I might be able to justify buying the GEC's.
 That's if the differences are likely to appeal to my tastes.


----------



## DecentLevi

So today, in the interest in giving an open-back option as a contrast to the HD-650, I got model *ATH R70x* from the fine Japanese company called *Audio Technica* that I'm sure you've all heard of.
  

  
 Then started an audiophile-tuning journey filled with stark contrasts and discoveries...
  
 The first listen with my Elise was one of those 'oh, gee' moments where I just wasn't hearing good synergy. Happened that it was the pairing of Bendix 6080 + RCA 12AV7 that didn't synergise well with these. So out of 'desperation' to find the right pairing, I apparently ended up spending the whole day trying these babies with nearly every tube combo (the ones on my desk anyway LOL). After trying 35 tube combinations with various genres in lossless format, including revisiting a few for comparison, here are my final selections, in order from best to still good:
  
Western Electric 421A + Ken Rad VT-231
_  (intrinsically great synergy: organic thunderous bass, organic lush mids, crisp, smooth as a whistle, fantastic dynamics)_
Bendix 6080 + NU “GN” smoked glass
_  (darker & slightly fleshed out, great ‘natural’ energy, dynamic & somewh__at crisp. Not recommended for electro._)
Tung Sol 5998 + Ken Rad VT-231
_  (warm, spacious, great layering, but slightly slow PraT, not the best for electro.)_
GEC 6AS7G + RCA 12AV7
_  (warm+dark, nice velvety lushness & texture)_
Mullard 6080 + Bad Boys
_  (darker / thick yet somewhat neutral, slightly crisp)_
  
 While I'm still comparing these to the HD-650, overall these are more detailed and slightly faster, with a FR that has slightly deeper sub-bass, a slight dip in the mids and a lower treble emphasis (crisp and sweet without fatiguing).
  
 Through this process I had to unlearn much of what I believed to be true about the sound of tubes. I realised that the sonic character of a tube combo is not always consistent from one headphone to the next. For example the quad EL3N with all drivers sounded very dark and soft, while very engaging on the HD-650; and the 421A + VT-231 sounded extremely linear / authoritative / organic on these headphones, yet very bright and thin on the HD 650... all the while the HD-650 is the slower / darker headphone and the R70x are the faster / brighter ones so I would have expected the opposite to be true. It's as if the synergy of a tube construction is intrinsically linked with the driver of your headphones in a way that is perhaps unexplainable - something I may call 'dark matter synergy'. AFAIK, the Elise being an OTL tube amp is configured in a way that the tubes are the final output stage before going directly to the headphone-out, so this synergy between tubes-headphones could definitely have some weight, and could be about more than just sonic attributes.
  
 Slowly the more you learn about this hobby the more you 'unlearn', because against all odds these R70x headphones actually pair better with the Cavalli Liquid Carbon amp than the Elise overall, due to a more 'front row', vivid and spot-on sound - although with every other headphone I prefer the Elise amp by far. And to be fair, elements of some tube pairings still make these better on the Elise, in some ways. The above oddities could also have to do with the fact that these are 470 ohm, vs. the 300 of the HD-650's


----------



## pctazhp

spork67 said:


> He's not out, but instead of naming a price he asked me to "make a fair offer".
> That makes it (even) harder to decide, because at the moment I'm using the STAX setup more than Elise + T1's and not certain about spending yet more $ chasing "perfection" with tubes and dynamic HPs.
> 
> *Can someone summarise the differences between these tubes and TS 5998, with EL3N drivers?*
> ...


 
 In a way I think you may be asking the impossible.
  
 I have ranked my favorite power tubes with EL3N drivers at:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/3510#post_13040831
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/3525#post_13042006
  
@DecentLevi has his own rankings based on his system, his preference and different combinations of drivers. I'm sure others have their own rankings.
  
 Unfortunately, I suspect you will find your own answer only if you bite the bullet and order the GECs. But I personally don't think doing that with anything other than purely discretionary funds is a good move. Just my personal opinion.
  
 Good luck in whatever you decide.


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> So today, in the interest in giving an open-back option as a contrast to the HD-650, I got model *ATH R70x* from the fine Japanese company called *Audio Technica* that I'm sure you've all heard of.
> 
> Then started an audiophile-tuning journey filled with stark contrasts and discoveries...
> 
> ...


 
 DL: I completely agree with you that different amps and different tube combinations in tube amps can sound much different on any given headphone. But I don't think that is due to any black magic. The laws of nature and physics are not suspended just for us audiophiles. Most of us just don't have the equipment or knowledge to make proper measurements of all the electronic parameters involved. Having said that, I doubt that the difference between 470 and 300 ohms would account for any difference you are hearing.
  
 As I understand it, the Elise power tubes are the amp's final output stage. I believe they amplify only voltage and not current, and therefore are essentially a substitute for output transformers. But someone who knows what he is talking about, like Glenn, is the one to opine on that.


----------



## ProfFalkin

pctazhp said:


> The laws of nature and physics are not suspended just for us audiophiles.



My headphones are powered entirely via the dark arts. The power-on ritual for my amp can get a little tedious, but it's worth it.


----------



## UntilThen

I will share my thoughts on buying tubes (and expenses) for Elise.
  
 Most of us are drawn to this tube amp because of the moderately low price and great feedback from owners. Most also go on to acquire more tubes because that is the norm. Buying a tube amp invariably leads to more tube rolling. Each new tube brings about a change in tone and our ears are drawn to it like bees to honey. Before you know it, you have acquired enough tubes to start your own tube museum. It is addictive. 
  
 The better tubes are expensive now compared to 10 - 20 years ago. You start off cautious and buy only tubes that are still reasonably priced but as time goes on, you get more curious as you seek more holy grail. You stop counting the cost. 20 years down the track, you reverse the process. You start selling off your tubes. It's the circle of life. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You don't need to get every tube. $400 for gec 6as7g, $250 for Tung Sol 5998, $200 for Mullard ECC31, etc, etc. It all adds up. By all means buy some and just enjoy the music.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I will share my thoughts on buying tubes (and expenses) for Elise.
> 
> Most of us are drawn to this tube amp because of the moderately low price and great feedback from owners. Most also go on to acquire more tubes because that is the norm. Buying a tube amp invariably leads to more tube rolling. Each new tube brings about a change in tone and our ears are drawn to it like bees to honey. Before you know it, you have acquired enough tubes to start your own tube museum. It is addictive.
> 
> ...


 
 I think we should consider shutting down the thread. You've just said all that ever could be, or needs to be, said. Great post UT


----------



## UntilThen

I'll now play the Devil's Advocate. I'll argue the case for buying more tubes.
  
 Here are the compelling reasons:-
  
 1. You only live once so why not.
 2. Tubes comes in all shapes and sizes. They are irresistible. 
 3. You can have more tube combinations than the 101 Dalmatians. 
 4. Nothing beats the thrill of a parcel arriving at the door for you.
 5. You start the day debating which tube to roll.
 6. Your tube combos are named after music genre: Jazz, Classical, Blues, Rock, Techno, Dubstep.
 7. You have something to pass onto your children. Just make sure they don't go tubeless.
 8. Retail therapy is good for you.
 9.
 10.
 etc.
  
 you can fill in the rest.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'll now play the Devil's Advocate. I'll argue the case for buying more tubes.
> 
> Here are the compelling reasons:-
> 
> ...


 

 EVERYONE:  Don't listen to this crazy man. He will lead you down the road to financial ruin and condemn you to a life of poverty!!!!


----------



## 2359glenn

pctazhp said:


> decentlevi said:
> 
> 
> > So today, in the interest in giving an open-back option as a contrast to the HD-650, I got model *ATH R70x* from the fine Japanese company called *Audio Technica* that I'm sure you've all heard of.
> ...


 

 Actually it is the opposite the output tubes are only increasing current all amplification is done in the 6SN7 stage.


----------



## pctazhp

2359glenn said:


> Actually it is the opposite the output tubes are only increasing current all amplification is done in the 6SN7 stage.


 

 Got it. Thanks Glenn )))


----------



## DecentLevi

pctazhp said:


> ... As I understand it, the Elise power tubes are the amp's final output stage. I believe they amplify only voltage and not current, and therefore are essentially a substitute for output transformers. But someone who knows what he is talking about, like Glenn, is the one to opine on that.


 
  


2359glenn said:


> Actually it is the opposite the output tubes are only increasing current all amplification is done in the 6SN7 stage.


 
 Hey folks I've had yet another fantastic journey with new tube combos on both old/new 'cans + old/new tubes, leaving me amazingly satisfied with my Elise experience overall... even 1-2 pairings that have an edge in some ways over my recent post yesterday... just a while before posting anything so I can wrap my head around these new pairings first. Anyway thus satisfaction being acclaimed, I'm now going to move onto a cautionary topic:
  
 Per the above quotes, I think it's important to point the following out: Being that the tube section of the Elise is towards the end of the signal path just before coming into your headphones (as it's an OTL tube amp without a transformer), I would advise all Elise users to always use utmost caution in the quality of tubes and of pin contacts that they use with this amp: any failure of a tube is extremely likely to have a detrimental effect on the drivers of your headphones! Several Elise users have occasionally experienced tubes that have blown up or otherwise had some sort of internal arc. This generally causes the driver of a headphone to blow out and can even result in permanent loss of hearing to the user to a lesser/greater extent - though usually just on one 'channel'. As mentioned a few weeks ago this has happened to me, though miraculously it was tame enough to have not caused any damage to my hearing or the headphones I was using (though I did throw away the tubes in question). This is something that in fact several of the 'top' users on this thread have experienced, which was communicated amongst each other by PM, apparently in hopes not to cast a negative light on the Elise. However I see the Elise as a top tube amp so want to bring this into the spotlight in order to keep the experiences positive! Here I will share some tips for avoiding this:
  

Always buy tubes that test good
_  (check with the seller on the measurement rankings of their specific tube tester)_
If no test results are available, make sure it looks in a good condition
Never use tubes that both look beat up *and* have not been tested
   _(this was the prime cause of multiple blow-ups with several of us here already)_
Clean the pins of any tubes that appear rusty or otherwize with a darker than usual color, with the likes of "electrical cleaner"
If you start to hear "warning signs" of a tube going bad, then save yourself a misfortune by throwing it in the garbage!
  
 AFAIK, early warning signs can be the likes of loud rustling sounds, intermittent buzz, etc. but I'm sure someone else here can better elaborate. And for anybody wondering if the condition of a tube is questionable, feel free to either post the photo, or maybe somebody can post a few good / bad example photos here.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hey folks I've had yet another fantastic journey with new tube combos on both old/new 'cans + old/new tubes, leaving me amazingly satisfied with my Elise experience overall... even 1-2 pairings that have an edge in some ways over my recent post yesterday... just a while before posting anything so I can wrap my head around these new pairings first. Anyway thus satisfaction being acclaimed, I'm now going to move onto a cautionary topic:
> 
> Per the above quotes, I think it's important to point the following out: Being that the tube section of the Elise is towards the end of the signal path just before coming into your headphones (as it's an OTL tube amp without a transformer), I would advise all Elise users to always use utmost caution in the quality of tubes and of pin contacts that they use with this amp: any failure of a tube is extremely likely to have a detrimental effect on the drivers of your headphones! Several Elise users have occasionally experienced tubes that have blown up or otherwise had some sort of internal arc. This generally causes the driver of a headphone to blow out and can even result in permanent loss of hearing to the user to a lesser/greater extent - though usually just on one 'channel'. As mentioned a few weeks ago this has happened to me, though miraculously it was tame enough to have not caused any damage to my hearing or the headphones I was using (though I did throw away the tubes in question). This is something that in fact several of the 'top' users on this thread have experienced, which was communicated amongst each other by PM, apparently in hopes not to cast a negative light on the Elise. However I see the Elise as a top tube amp so want to bring this into the spotlight in order to keep the experiences positive! Here I will share some tips for avoiding this:
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's sensible advice but I must say I take tube seller measurements with a pinch of salt. I'm not even convinced all the measurements are real and even if they are there are many confounding issues in measuring tube characteristics.
  
 It would be helpful if we could know which tube types and manufacturers had caused problems.
 Are there any trends?


----------



## UntilThen

I shared my experience openly on this thread and it was discussed publicly between @mordy ,  @whirlwind  and me.  There's nothing to be concealed. It's an RCA 6080 problem and has nothing to do with Elise. For that matter, any tube that is faulty can cause this problem.
  
 In my case, the tube though used, looks 'ok' - no rusty pins or dodgy base. It was even briefly tested by Mordy before he shipped it to me. As I pointed out, Mordy was kind to buy on my behalf before sending it to me. Such a nice and helpful member.
  
 The tube came undone an hour into my listening session. There was some intermittent buzz, then a pop. Not terribly loud but enough to silence the right channel for good. Certainly no damage to hearing. You will need a loud bang to have your hearing shot.
  
 DL, most of the tips you published were what I told you when you contacted me in PM. 
  
 However those are just general guides. As with the RCA 6080, the tube looks in good condition and it's also the only tube in my collection that has this problem. You won't get any test data for a $5 tube and even if there were test result, as @HOWIE13  has pointed out, that's no guarantee that it will be problem free. Buying from a reputable source is recommended.
  
 It's an isolated incident. No need to panic unduly. I have every confidence in the rest of my tubes.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well after scavenging a while, I was able to pull up these photos and took took a new one, for some examples of 'bad Santa' tubes:
  


 These were my Selectron rebranded 6080WB that caused a joltingly bothersome POP sound
  

 these were the C3G's I ordered that caused super loud buzzing and rustling. Fortunately I heeded the warning signs
  

 One of these two on the left were the RCA 6080's that blew out UT's HD-650 on one channel. Look good but weren't tested thoroughly. 
_Sorry for posting that pic without permission, let me know and I'll remove this_
  
 In fact another thing I agree with, Howie about tube test results - sometimes even well tested tubes had gotten to others in bad condition after a bumpy shipping experience, and once even a pair of mine had a major channel imbalance by the time it had gotten to me after a good testing


----------



## UntilThen

DL, no problem at all. I think I have already posted that picture when I brought up about the tube damaging my hd650 right channel. It's somewhere back there in this thread. As you can see, they look good, even in the flesh. No hint of the tube going bad. I must admit this is the first time I bought a budget tube. Most budget tubes works well btw, from others experience.
  
 Probably a good way to be sure of your tubes is to have a tube tester but with the RCA 6080, I'm not sure if a tube tester will detect that. After the pop, the tube is still lighted but there was a loud buzz when I tested with another headphone. That's when it goes into the bin. The pair. 
  
 I've since bought another pair of RCA 6080 NOS from Langrex. It's in pristine condition for $19 each and sounds good for the price.


----------



## UntilThen

There could be some gems with old tubes. I have a good description of these RCA 6SN7gtb coin base when I first received them. They look and performed like nearly new tubes after cleaning.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/1485#post_12054683


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Actually it is the opposite the output tubes are only increasing current all amplification is done in the 6SN7 stage.


 
  
 Yes indeed Glenn...there often seems to be a bit of confusion here - it's the wording.
  
 As you know, in most instances the word "amplification" is usually taken as _*current*_ increase - as in power output stage. In our 6SN7 _driver_ stage, the increase is in *voltage*...and referred to as "gain".
  
 Even more confusing is that strictly, a tube's "gain" rating is in fact its max. *potential.*..the actual operating figure being determined by the amp's *circuit*, if I remember correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...CHEERS!...


----------



## connieflyer

All I know is that when I would short myself across a circuit I always feel the amplification of pain!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> All I know is that when I would short myself across a circuit I always feel the amplification of pain!


 

 Reminds me of song everyone hates


----------



## pctazhp

Since it's just us chickens here, I'm re-posting one of my favorite videos. It has nothing to do with anything. But what the heck!!! I only have 223 posts left until I achieve the coveted Supremus status


----------



## pctazhp

Remember this cutie??? 222 and counting


----------



## connieflyer

Whoa! That really goes back a long way, one of the first song's my mother told me never to sing again.  I am sure it was my voice not the song!


----------



## connieflyer

So long as it is Quiet I offer this nice and relaxing and still a classic
  
 .
  
  
 and a little more contemporary     my favorite


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Whoa! That really goes back a long way, one of the first song's my mother told me never to sing again.  I am sure it was my voice not the song!


 
 Hahaha. It's terrible to be laughing at 2:47am but this is funny.


----------



## connieflyer

I am here but to entertain you! Perhaps this will lull you to sleep...
  
  
 
  
  
 or perhaps this...


----------



## UntilThen

Welcome back @hypnos1 from your hiatus. While you were away, us workers have to pound our keyboards harder. It's still not hard enough for Pct and CF. Comm'on guys, you are 200+ posts to Uno Supremo. I'm waiting.


----------



## connieflyer

I am trying but my fingers are getting confused in selecting the proper characters,(although the word proper should not be used by me)!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I am trying but my fingers are getting confused in selecting the proper characters,(although the word proper should not be used by me)!


 
 Use the US keyboard not the Chinese keyboard and thanks for the sedating songs but I need faster rhythm. Some rock and roll.


----------



## connieflyer

Wow that does make a difference!  This is a little better  the words are fitting!


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## connieflyer

This one is for @pctazhp


----------



## UntilThen

That's good buddy. Giddy-up. You will overtake @pctazhp  soon.
  
 Yup that last one has more spice.


----------



## connieflyer

For those of you, that don't know who Elvira is I offer this to you.


----------



## connieflyer

Are you getting tired yet, @UntilThen!


----------



## connieflyer

US or Chinese keyboard got to get some lunch and some cleaning last one


----------



## UntilThen

This is for @connieflyer  and @pctazhp for the pains they have inflicted on me in the last couple of songs.
  
 If I could turn back time... turn back the last hour.


----------



## Oskari

It's peak season for _Finlandia_.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5zg_af9b8c[/VIDEO]


Happy Independence Day!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> This is for @connieflyer  and @pctazhp for the pains they have inflicted on me in the last couple of songs.
> 
> If I could turn back time... turn back the last hour.





 Pain builds character. But you haven't seen real pain yet!!! @connieflyer has launched a full frontal attack. I need to strike back. Probably will soon start posting Christmas songs everyone has heard a million times 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But first:


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Welcome back @hypnos1 from your hiatus. While you were away, us workers have to pound our keyboards harder. It's still not hard enough for Pct and CF. Comm'on guys, you are 200+ posts to Uno Supremo. I'm waiting.


 

@connieflyer is not playing fair!!! Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs???? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING


----------



## aqsw

Hi Guys,
  
 My daughter (Jessica) and her hubby just started a new band about two weeks ago. Tell me what you think.
  
 Please don't be too harsh!!
  
 https://soundcloud.com/thewildhomes
  
 THese are not pro recordings. All mixed at my dinner table.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Wow that does make a difference!  This is a little better  the words are fitting!





 For the Trump supporters. I know. I'll probably get banned even before I reach 1300


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> My daughter (Jessica) and her hubby just started a new band about two weeks ago. Tell me what you think.
> 
> ...


 
 Listening now. Sounding very good. Jessica has a good voice.
  
 Why dinner table? 
  
 She plays bass. Interesting.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> It's peak season for _Finlandia_.
> 
> Happy Independence Day!


 
  
 Go Finland !


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> For the Trump supporters. I know. I'll probably get banned even before I reach 1300


 
 Don't get banned till you reach 1500. You can after.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Listening now. Sounding very good. Jessica has a good voice.
> 
> Why dinner table?
> 
> She plays bass. Interesting.


 
 She's not the lead singer.
  
 No room to mix it anywhere else, but the dinner table. It's a big one.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Don't get banned till you reach 1500. You can after.


 

 I'll try harder to behave


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> My daughter (Jessica) and her hubby just started a new band about two weeks ago. Tell me what you think.
> 
> ...


 

 I am very much enjoying. You must have a pretty sophisticated dinner table


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> She's not the lead singer.
> 
> No room to mix it anywhere else, but the dinner table. It's a big one.


 
 Yes just read the side notes. Britanny Barber on vocals. Very good original songs and great for a home recording.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Yes just read the side notes. Britanny Barber on vocals. Very good original songs and great for a home recording.


 
 Thanks Guys,
  
 All four in the band right now are music teachers, so I'm sure there will be no touring.


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp why would anyone want to ban such a nice young guy like yourself?  I learned along time ago to turn the other cheek, I eventually, keep turning until I get dizzy and fall over, and when I get back up, I don't remember what all the fuss was about.We'l get through this one just like all the rest. People are the same, just different names, (except_ for UT!) Pat Boone is almost as old as I am. Do you remember American Bandstand and the white buck shoes?


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp why would anyone want to ban such a nice young guy like yourself?  I learned along time ago to turn the other cheek, I eventually, keep turning until I get dizzy and fall over, and when I get back up, I don't remember what all the fuss was about.We'l get through this one just like all the rest. People are the same, just different names, (except_ for UT!) Pat Boone is almost as old as I am. Do you remember American Bandstand and the white buck shoes?


 
@pctazhp  is a young veteran having served in the Korean and Vietnam War. He's a triple Medal of Honor recipient.  
  
  
 Is Daniel Boone the brother of Pat Boone?
  
  
 I'm starting a band guys. Tell me what instruments you play and if you can sing that would be sweet.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp why would anyone want to ban such a nice young guy like yourself?  I learned along time ago to turn the other cheek, I eventually, keep turning until I get dizzy and fall over, and when I get back up, I don't remember what all the fuss was about.We'l get through this one just like all the rest. People are the same, just different names, (except_ for UT!) Pat Boone is almost as old as I am. *Do you remember American Bandstand and the white buck shoes?*


 
 Remember???? I owned a pair of white buck shoes!!!! And so the Christmas music begins


----------



## DavidA

Love all the music posted in this thread, great mix of old, new and things I've never heard before.
  
@aqsw, love the music from your kitchen table, great cooking and kicking back music


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> @pctazhp  is a young veteran having served in the Korean and Vietnam War. He's a triple Medal of Honor recipient.
> 
> 
> Is Daniel Boone the brother of Pat Boone?
> ...


 
  
 Daniel Boone was a cousin of Davy Crockett - well, at least for purpose of this post I think so.
  

  
 I play the gui-toiilet. It's a guitar made out of a toilet seat. Further information provided upon special request. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 PS. You forgot to mention I was the original settler in Arizona and discovered the Grand Canyon.


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. Beautiful Sunday reminds me of this:


----------



## UntilThen

Let's start with last Christmas shall we?


----------



## pctazhp

Well, what the heck!!! This thread has already spun completely out of control. Don't worry. My time has run out for the day and I have to go back into my cage


----------



## UntilThen

Last one before I go and catch my Christmas turkey.
  
 This song is so good I'm getting goose bumps.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Let's start with last Christmas shall we?




Lots of versions on youtube. This is good:


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/-iWck8AkNrk[/VIDEO]


Wham, of course, is still special in a way that only the 80s can be:


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI[/VIDEO]


----------



## connieflyer

Oh man Vanity Fair and Bobby Helms, what a great time we lived in! I tried to get a pair of white bucks , but I was kayo'd at ever turn, mom drew the line when I insisted on getting a pair of flip out tongue loafers called flap jacks. 
  
http://boomers-fifties-pinups.com/1950s_shoes_flapjacks.html
  
  
@pctazhp And thank you for your service, and for discovering the Grand Canyon (although I did not know it was missing!)


----------



## connieflyer

Speaking of Davy Crockett his boyhood home and father's tavern are about three blocks from my brothers house in Morristown Tennessee.  Visited it and walked inside and amazed at the fact they enjoyed life so much and not a tube amp in sight.   http://crocketttavernmuseum.org/   all this history and music too, what a forum thread. I am liking it!


----------



## connieflyer

And for @DavidA  I remember the first Christmas on Oahu, had never seen a warm Christmas, reindeer dashing through the sand, really!  Loved it.


----------



## Oskari

One more…


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/rNp4aBz9Jww[/VIDEO]

_All I Want for Christmas Is You_ ♫


----------



## connieflyer

http://boomers-fifties-pinups.com/pat_bucks.html  Pat Boone and white buck shoes, what could be Kooler?


----------



## connieflyer

Okay before they lock this thread, one more and I will cease


----------



## UntilThen

It's that time of year. Watching that Wham video reminds me of what a traditional Christmas is with all the snow and everyone gathering at the fireplace to get their presents. Good times. I'll swap some heat for your snow.
  
 CF, you have your flip out tongue loafers but you need game changer Australian made Ugg boots for that touch down.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen the ugg boots are cool but Bud Light is even cooler


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Speaking of Davy Crockett his boyhood home and father's tavern are about three blocks from my brothers house in Morristown Tennessee.  Visited it and walked inside and amazed at the fact they enjoyed life so much and not a tube amp in sight.   http://crocketttavernmuseum.org/   all this history and music too, what a forum thread. I am liking it!


 

 I'll be darn!!!! I've always thought this was Davy Crockett's boyhood home:
  
 http://doubletree3.hilton.com/en/hotels/california/the-fess-parker-santa-barbara-hotel-a-doubletree-resort-by-hilton-SBAMCDT/index.html?wt.srch=1


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Oh man Vanity Fair and Bobby Helms, what a great time we lived in! I tried to get a pair of white bucks , but I was kayo'd at ever turn, mom drew the line when I insisted on getting a pair of flip out tongue loafers called flap jacks.
> 
> http://boomers-fifties-pinups.com/1950s_shoes_flapjacks.html
> 
> ...


 
 No thanks necessary. The fact that I provided you the opportunity to crack a corny joke is all the reward I need.


----------



## connieflyer

Reward is it's own reward. Corny yes, but we are all thankful for the camaradrrie that is displayed here and you have been a big part of it


----------



## Spork67

Does anyone know if Elise can be switched between 110/120v and 220/240v internally, or are they different ?transformers? depending on the country they will be used in?
 If no internal switch / jumper, is there any disadvantage to using a step-down transformer?


----------



## pctazhp

spork67 said:


> Does anyone know if Elise can be switched between 110/120v and 220/240v internally, or are they different ?transformers? depending on the country they will be used in?
> If no internal switch / jumper, is there any disadvantage to using a step-down transformer?


 

 Good question. I'd also like to know the answer.
  
 I don't see why a step-down transformer would be a problem. But would need to know the proper wattage requirement. I couldn't find the answer on the F-A site.


----------



## Fervent

oskari said:


> Yo, UT! How's Finn the microbeast?
> 
> And how's Oscar the dog? @Fervent


 

 Howdy!
  
 Long time since I was here last. Been quite busy! Also been thinking about buying either HE-400i or HE-560 to complement the HD650. There were a few pretty good deals on the HE-400i this black friday, but general procrastination made me miss out on them 
 Oscars hormones are finally starting to balance out (he's soon 2 years old), so I've started to let him sleep in my "audio-throne"


----------



## connieflyer

Beautiful!


----------



## DavidA

@Fervent, go with the HE-560, the HE-400i is more similar to the HD-650 while the HE-560 will be quite different, a better complimentary headphone IMO.


----------



## UntilThen

@Fervent good of you to drop in ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Haha Oscar looks content on that armchair. I bet he'll be happier with the hd650 on his head.
  
 I second what David said. Go with the HE-560 or consider the T1.
  
 Good to see you're still using EL3N and Chatham 6AS7G.


----------



## UntilThen

How did the shower videos move to the other thread?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> How did the shower videos move to the other thread?


 

 Maybe the Thread Gods were trying to give this thread a break )))


----------



## Oskari

I guess the other thread had some traffic and was closer to the top.

Not a big deal.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> Maybe the Thread Gods were trying to give this thread a break )))




A well-deserved one.


----------



## UntilThen

A slight increase in dimension makes Elise look more purposeful. Looks like a bigger transformer. 
  
@hypnos1 any further developments of the new Elise?


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> A well-deserved one.


 
  
 Perhaps in readiness for some further teaser shots of my eagerly awaited "revised" Elise - viz. its gorgeous internals lol..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Actually, "revised" is not really the correct term...although retaining the same general layout, Henryk has gone all out - totally unexpected by me, I must add! - to make some quite major changes in design of the circuit so as to accommodate the upgraded caps, and especially the new Caddock/Dale resistor circuits...hence the recent delay in finalising the unit, not to mention rigorous and extended bench testing...(plus a very full order book for MKI lol!).
  
 Getting everything right therefore in what is basically almost a new prototype is, to say the least, stretching me on the rack to almost breaking point...the anticipation is just too _*cruel!!*_  (I dread to think what it's doing to the poor Feliks family LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







). But at least I know the wait - as usual - will be well worth it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Hopefully, the testing will soon be complete and I can be making you all _green with envy!_





...
  
 Said photos will be with you in the next day or so...things have been rather hectic recently, alas!
  
 BFN...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> A slight increase in dimension makes Elise look more purposeful. Looks like a bigger transformer.
> 
> @hypnos1 any further developments of the new Elise?


 
  
 You psychic, UT?...you just pipped me to the post lol!!


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> You psychic, UT?...you just pipped me to the post lol!!




I bloody well think he is.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Getting everything right therefore in what is basically almost a new prototype is, to say the least, stretching me on the rack to almost breaking point...the anticipation is just too _*cruel!!*_




I'd say 'patience, my dear padawan' but I'm afraid that would be futile. :rolleyes:


----------



## Oskari

Ops. I just had a slight beer accident. Well, never mind.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> I'd say 'patience, my dear padawan' but I'm afraid that would be futile.


 
  
 To quote the fabulous Francis Urquhart in "House of Cards" (UK version)- played by the incomparable Ian Richardson..."You might think that Matty...I couldn't _possibly_ comment"!!!


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> To quote the fabulous Francis Urquhart in "House of Cards" (UK version)- played by the incomparable Ian Richardson..."You might think that Matty...I couldn't _possibly_ comment"!!! :wink_face:




I have no idea what you're talking about. I still think that I completely understand. :wink_face:


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> Ops. I just had a slight beer accident. Well, never mind.





[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CduA0TULnow[/VIDEO]


This beer's kind of eager. :rolleyes:


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Actually, "revised" is not really the correct term...although retaining the same general layout, *Henryk has gone all out *- totally unexpected by me, I must add! - to make *some quite major changes in design of the circuit *so as to accommodate the upgraded caps, and especially the new Caddock/Dale resistor circuits...hence the recent delay in finalising the unit, not to mention rigorous and extended bench testing...(plus a very full order book for MKI lol!).


 
 Well I can't wait. I'm already counting what's in my piggy bank. Hope Lukasz will give a BIG discount for ex-customers and all the merry men here.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> This beer's kind of eager.


 
 Awesome. Much better than 'Sam the Sham' and 'Mandolin Wind'. I'll put you in charge of video now and move the other 2 to the backroom. Cabinet reshuffle.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Awesome. Much better than 'Sam the Sham' and 'Mandolin Wind'. I'll put you in charge of video now and move the other 2 to the backroom. Cabinet reshuffle.




I have to say that the hairy guy in shower was not my kind of video. :rolleyes:


----------



## UntilThen

I miss Corrs. Great family band. Some group need to step up.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I miss Corrs. Great family band. Some group need to step up.




I 999% agree.


----------



## connieflyer

Okay I know when I'm no longer needed I will step aside so someone else can provide the video entertainment for tonight at least. Everyone stay safe


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Okay I know when I'm no longer needed I will step aside so someone else can provide the video entertainment for tonight at least. Everyone stay safe




Hairy _girls_ in shower would be no problem.


----------



## Oskari

Double bloody post.


----------



## Spork67

oskari said:


> >
> 
> 
> 
> Hairy _girls_ in shower would be no problem.


 
 Do NOT try to google that, esp. if you are at work...


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Double bloody post.


 
  
 Methinks you need to change your beer brand *FAST*, O...a good ol' British Bitter should keep you on the straight(??!!) and narrow lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 G'night...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Well I can't wait. I'm already counting what's in my piggy bank. *Hope Lukasz will give a BIG discount for ex-customers and all the merry men here.*


 
 Wouldn't count on it, UT...this venture must be costing them a fortune lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 And G'night to you too...


----------



## UntilThen

Dang Sporky I spill my coffee.


----------



## mordy

Is the new Elise using the same tubes as before?


----------



## pctazhp

Gheezch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I go away for a day and there's been a palace coup 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cabinet reshuffled???? I'd say more like:
  
 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2321790/Private-moments-Russian-Tsar-family-captured-camera-executed-Bolsheviks.html


----------



## pctazhp

*REVENGE OF THE ROMANOV'S:*


----------



## connieflyer

WAIT! Palace, why wasn't I told of this, we have snow a palace would be warm, I am joining the revolt., unless @pctazhp and @untilthen lets me play the flat top cigar box in the band!  It would sound great with the kazoo!


----------



## connieflyer

On the bedpost overnight,  I almolst forgot that, now it will take another 30 years to lose the memory! Thanks!  They are good competition for Hayseed Dixie!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> WAIT! Palace, why wasn't I told of this, we have snow a palace would be warm, I am joining the revolt., unless @pctazhp and @untilthen lets me play the* flat top cigar box* in the band!  It would sound great with the kazoo!


 
 CF:  You're on. I've arranged for @UntilThen to be kidnapped and dumped in Lodi, wearing only his pagamas


----------



## connieflyer

Make sure the camera's are rolling, so we can post it here and fix him good!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Make sure the camera's are rolling, so we can post it here and fix him good!


 

 Ha)))) I'm afraid it would take both of us longer than 30 years to get that picture out of our minds


----------



## Oskari

spork67 said:


> Do NOT try to google that, esp. if you are at work...


 
  
 You got a point there.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Methinks you need to change your beer brand *FAST*, O...a good ol' British Bitter should keep you on the straight(??!!) and narrow lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So right you are! No self-respecting British ale would be as eager to come out of the bottle as that Belgian brew.


----------



## aqsw

Hey Guys,7

A couple psges back I brought up my daughters bsnd. I had only listened to them on
my Cavslli Liquid Carbon, Hegel HD12, and Oppo PM3s.
That is my office set up.
All I csn say now that Im listening to the ssme tunes at home " my home setup absolutely kills my office setup."
Wow, I love my Elise and tube dac. The Ethers sound real good too!!!
So much clearer, and twice the soundstage. I love it.

Coild be the amp, dac, headphones. I dont care, it just sounds so much better.


----------



## connieflyer

Okay, no one here, I will offer an oldie Glenn Campbell


----------



## aqsw

Hey Oskari,
Are you from Finland?

I'm sitting here in my seat at the MTS center in Winnipeg, just before the Jets play New York.
Our new hero in Winniprg is a Finnidh kid named Lsine. Are you a hockey fan?


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> Hey Oskari,
> Are you from Finland?
> 
> I'm sitting here in my seat at the MTS center in Winnipeg, just before the Jets play New York.
> Our new hero in Winniprg is a Finnidh kid named Lsine. Are you a hockey fan?


 

 I've never been able to see a professional hockey game. The only team we have here are the Coyotes.


----------



## pctazhp

In my spare time, I have been reading about a strange, faraway island at the World’s End. When Captain Johnny Depp discovered it, he was immediately arrested for trying to smuggle a wild beast onto the island. Imagine his shock when he was hauled into court and realized the judge and jury were all kangaroos.
  
 People there have two first names and one middle, like “Olivia Newton John”.
  
 They really don’t get much done because their motto is “Don’t do it today, wait Until Then”. But their economy is ok because they have monopolized the world supply of vacuum tubes (had to work tubes into this somehow).
  
 Usually when they have been stung by a Bee, they scream out “Gee whiz!!!!).
  
 A dapperly gentleman dressed in his finest Crocodile Dandy suit visiting Manhattan was heard to shout “Now That’s a Knife”!!!
  
 They love to assign cutsie, endearing names to their ladies, such as “Georgie Girl”.
  
 Unfortunately, they are culturally backwards. They have demonstrated a woeful lack of appreciation for truly fine music.


----------



## Oskari

aqsw said:


> Hey Oskari,
> Are you from Finland?
> 
> I'm sitting here in my seat at the MTS center in Winnipeg, just before the Jets play New York.
> Our new hero in Winniprg is a Finnidh kid named Lsine. Are you a hockey fan?


 
  
 Yep!
  
 Not more than most...
  
 He's pretty good, isn't he? Rookie of the season?


----------



## aqsw

pctazhp said:


> I've never been able to see a professional hockey game. The only team we have here are the Coyotes. :eek:




Cheap shot. Those are our old Jets when we lost the team in 1996.


----------



## aqsw

oskari said:


> Yep!
> 
> Not more than most...
> 
> He's pretty good, isn't he? Rookie of the season?





Quite possible. Hes the leader now, but there are a lot of very good rookies this year.


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> Cheap shot. Those are our old Jets when we lost the team in 1996.


 

 I remember. I think they probably would have done much better staying there where they wouldn't have to skate on sand


----------



## Oskari

aqsw said:


> Quite possible. Hes the leader now, but there are a lot of very good rookies this year.


 
  
 A lot will always depend on the support he gets.


----------



## aqsw

Tidal Hi Fi sounds so good compared to alot of my older systems. 
And they cost way more than I have invested now. Ive got about 5g cdn in my headphone system now.
I remember paying that for an amp about twenty years ago.
We are very lucky people to have this fabulous amp (or pre amp) to work with.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Hey Guys,7
> 
> A couple psges back I brought up my daughters bsnd. I had only listened to them on
> my Cavslli Liquid Carbon, Hegel HD12, and Oppo PM3s.
> ...


 
 You're promoted to frontbench now.


----------



## UntilThen

Look at that Wembley crowd and none other than Michael Hutchence singing. Australian talent at it's best.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Is the new Elise using the same tubes as before?


 
 I'm almost certain it does.


----------



## Spork67

I've been neglecting Elise for my STAX gear lately.
 The other day someone posted up a limited edition pair of STAX HPs and matching amp. for sale - only 1000 were ever made.
 This time of year disposable income has mostly already been disposed of.
  
 We did a trade. My Elise + extra tubes and adapters for his Stax SRM-T1 and 404LE's.
 Hopefully I'll soon have the best of both worlds - E'stats AND tubes.
 The deal cost me a few hundred in post (I paid both lots of postage costs) and a little bit of my heart. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 All I have left of Elise is fond memories - and the original power tubes (They wouldn't fit in the box I used).
 I also have very fond memories of this thread and the wonderful people in it.
 It must be the friendliest thread on Head-Fi - possibly on the whole internet!
  
 I hope you don't mind me lurking here from time to time even though I am now Elise-less.
 I'm sure you'll welcome Sal (LaCuffia) here like you did me.
 And who knows - maybe one day Elise MkII will grace my desk...


----------



## mordy

Hi Spork67,
  
 We'll be missing you - good luck with your new purchase!


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> I've been neglecting Elise for my STAX gear lately.
> The other day someone posted up a limited edition pair of STAX HPs and matching amp. for sale - only 1000 were ever made.
> This time of year disposable income has mostly already been disposed of.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Reckon you may well be right there, S67!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but best wishes in the meantime. And yeah, please keep in touch. We look forward to the new owner's impressions...CHEERS!!...CJ


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Spork, remember I ask what's spork when you first came. 

You are welcome here anytime. Meanwhile do enjoy your soon to arrive Stax.

Take care and keep in touch.

UT


----------



## DecentLevi

spork67 said:


> I've been neglecting Elise for my STAX gear lately.
> The other day someone posted up a limited edition pair of STAX HPs and matching amp. for sale - only 1000 were ever made.
> This time of year disposable income has mostly already been disposed of.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Your Stax system will likely sound good - but I'd recon you'll be missing a few things vs. Elise. After trying at least 6 Stax systems including the very similar Lamda series, I've noticed most of their similar era/shape headphones sound somewhat hollow, and _all_ Stax headphones are known to be slightly lacking in dynamics, as is a common issue with electrostats. OTOH I have numerous tube combinations with my Elise which are extremely satisfying, giving me completely engulfing experiences which can even leave me asking whether an upgrade would ever be worth it... if I were to ever upgrade tube amps it would preferably be one that accepts the same tubes though since my 'children' are so fantastic and diverse!


----------



## canthearyou

untilthen said:


> A slight increase in dimension makes Elise look more purposeful. Looks like a bigger transformer.
> 
> @hypnos1
> any further developments of the new Elise?




Any more info on changes?


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> Your Stax system will likely sound good - but I'd recon you'll be missing a few things vs. Elise. After trying at least 6 Stax systems including the very similar Lamda series, I've noticed most of their similar era/shape headphones sound somewhat hollow, and *all Stax headphones are known to be slightly lacking in dynamics*, as is a common issue with electrostats. OTOH I have numerous tube combinations with my Elise which are extremely satisfying, giving me completely engulfing experiences which can even leave me asking whether an upgrade would ever be worth it... if I were to ever upgrade tube amps it would preferably be one that accepts the same tubes though since my 'children' are so fantastic and diverse!


 
 Can't agree with you on this, my really old SRD-34 is still a touch better than my HD-650 IMO, and for classical my SR-009 is a bit ahead of a HD-800 driven by a EC Balancing Act or Liquid Glass from my experience so far, but its not a headphone I would use for anything other than well mastered / recorded classical and jazz.


----------



## connieflyer

decentlevi said:


> Your Stax system will likely sound good - but I'd recon you'll be missing a few things vs. Elise. After trying at least 6 Stax systems including the very similar Lamda series, I've noticed most of their similar era/shape headphones sound somewhat hollow, and _all_ Stax headphones are known to be slightly lacking in dynamics, as is a common issue with electrostats. OTOH I have numerous tube combinations with my Elise which are extremely satisfying, giving me completely engulfing experiences which can even leave me asking whether an upgrade would ever be worth it... if I were to ever upgrade tube amps it would preferably be one that accepts the same tubes though since my 'children' are so fantastic and diverse!


 

 You couldn't just say congrats, and wish him well and hope he comments here now and then, you had to make it a downer and then make it about yourself, well par for the course I guess


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> You couldn't just say congrats, and wish him well and hope he comments here now and then, you had to make it a downer and then make it about yourself, well par for the course I guess


 

 Sadly, I was thinking the same thing. I have fond memories of my Lamba Pro headphones from many moons ago. I echo the good wishes to @Spork67 and hope you will stay here with us. And I'd love to hear what you think of your new new purchase. I'm not aware of any thread rule that says you can only talk about other setups that are INFERIOR to an Elise based system. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I know Ken Rockwell is a little controversial, but:
  
 http://kenrockwell.com/audio/stax/sr-lambda-pro.htm


----------



## UntilThen

canthearyou said:


> Any more info on changes?


 
 Only what @hypnos1  has told us so far here. New sockets too.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/3870#post_13072299
  
 FA is still finalising it and it seems there's an upgrade program for Elise owners.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Your Stax system will likely sound good - but I'd recon you'll be missing a few things vs. Elise. After trying at least 6 Stax systems including the very similar Lamda series, I've noticed most of their similar era/shape headphones sound somewhat hollow, and *all Stax headphones are known to be slightly lacking in dynamics*, as is a common issue with electrostats. OTOH I have numerous tube combinations with my Elise which are extremely satisfying, giving me completely engulfing experiences which can even leave me asking whether an upgrade would ever be worth it... if I were to ever upgrade tube amps it would preferably be one that accepts the same tubes though since my 'children' are so fantastic and diverse!


 
 Don't agree with this statement ENTIRELY unless you have other definition for dynamics.
  
 Dynamics is the loud and soft in music. You can sing 'Happy birthday' softly to a baby or I can sing it loudly to @pctazhp at his 21st. 
  
 A song can be performed fast (*allegro tempo*), loud (*forte* *dynamics*), and in a happy key (*major key*).  This makes the song sound like a party: happy, carefree, and energetic. But if a composer or performer wants to send a different message, she might perform the song slowly (*lento tempo*), quietly (*piano dynamic*), and in a sad key (*minor key*).  
  
 A classical recording can have loud and quiet parts. A good headphone (and the rest of your head-fi gear) will convey that without you having to adjust the volume constantly to compensate. Adjusting the volume will still not bring back the dynamics if the recording is compressed. Yup they introduced compression in radio played songs so you don't go crazy constantly turning the volume knob while driving.
  
 Stax SR-009 and Blue Hawaii will handle with aplomb a well recorded Beethoven 5th Symphony or Dave Brubeck's 'Take Five'. When I heard the Pink Panther's theme song on this system, it was a killer. @DavidA is correct in saying that Stax SR-009 handles classical and jazz very well..... extremely well.
  
 However if you're a lover of rock and roll and you need the slam of AC/DC to vibrate through your body, you're better served choosing a tube or ss amp with other headphones.
  
 Elise though is a good all rounder. Whether it's classical, jazz, blues or rock, you are in for a good time without spending too much.
  
 I'm done writing long essays. I rather thrust and parry with Pct and CF. It's more fun.


----------



## hypnos1

canthearyou said:


> Any more info on changes?


 
  
 Hi canthearyou...(tricky one to abbreviate lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
  
 Anyway, as promised yesterday, I have some enticing photos for anyone interested in the revised Elise...
  
 But first, let me just repeat the main upgrades  :
  
_*1. Pure silver wire throughout the signal line...Teflon-tubed.*_
_*2. Highest quality Teflon sockets, with gold-plated pins.*_
_*3. Upgraded RCA connectors.*_
_*4. Mundorf/Nichicon capacitors.*_
_*5. Dale/Caddock resistors.*_
_*6. Substantial aluminium feet.*_
  
 However, this is only part of the story, as can be seen in the reworking of the internals - especially evident when comparing to the original (still impressive though!) layout. Just look at the quality of work in these photos...which have in fact required lowering of resolution and partial masking for protection reasons :
  
  

  

  
  
  
  

  
 I personally am very impressed indeed with the overall quality - of both components and workmanship...and it's no wonder F-A themselves are impressed with the final effect on SQ also LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hopefully the rigorous testing should soon be finished, and I can be putting this new baby through its paces...CAN'T WAIT!!...
  
 ps. The trafo housing is indeed larger than the original, but I don't think the trafo itself has been changed...(this may have already been the case with later MKI models?).
  
       As of yet, they haven't worked out a pricing structure...but, of course, the "complete" works will not be cheap - this "revision" is infinitely more than "just" a few upgrades lol!...and which will surely lift it into another league entirely. But time will tell...naturally...


----------



## DecentLevi

I didn't mean to sound negative, just throwing out some facts that I believe to be true. I'm more of a technical than a social kind of guy. In fact all of the Stax systems I've listened to especially the SR-009 sounded extraordinary and technically superior to almost everything I have heard in terms of detail, soundstage, imaging, etc. My only gripe is something that you essentially never notice until you compare it to a dynamic headphone and something that is only prevalent prevalent with heavily rhythmic songs - a slight inferiority with dynamics like how hard the drums hit. I guess it's just something inherent with electrostatic technology where are the drivers don't push in and out quite as far as cone-shaped drivers of dynamic headphones or something to that tune. But still I prefer electrostatic headphones for some genres and there are advantages for the Elise in terms of tube rolling so that you're not stuck with one sound flavor.

I too look forward to developments on the the upgraded Elise. I may have made a false assertation a while ago on the other thread about silver internal wiring possibly making the sound brighter, as I had also tried another DAC with silver wiring, which was definitely neutral and resolving rather than bright. An Elise upgrade program would be an interesting concept but then after accounting for the cost of shipping both ways and the upgrade it may be worth at least as much as the Elise itself - but should still be worth it. And I'm not sure how the Transformer would you be upgraded on the old one though


----------



## Spork67

While I had Elise I loved the sound.
 When I got the STAX system I wanted to prefer Elise for enough of my music to be able to justify keeping both.
 As it was, only a few tracks sounded "better" (to me) on Elise. That's odd, because although I have a varied music library I do listen to a lot of rock and some metal, which most people would say aren't an ideal match with e'stats.
 (The albums that DID sound better on Elise - to me - were the old Black Sabbath stuff, but they were only a tiny bit "better")
  
 Now that she's gone I will also sell my T1's. I'll keep my TH-X00 as they work well with my little Grace DAC/amp, for a semi-portable system, but it doesn't do justice to the T1's.
 They are up on the For Sale forum if any of you folks are interested - they really do pair well with Elise.
  
 On another note,
 Can anyone recommend a good step-up transformer so Elise #79's new owner can enjoy her in the US?
 He seems to think he mightn't need one - but I'm pretty sure he will.
 I hope that if he does plug her straight 120v it won't hurt her 230v circuitry.


----------



## connieflyer

@Spork67 thanks for explaining your reasoning and I can not fault you on it. Everyone hears sound differently and what sounds good to you may not sounds good to me. so trriing to keep both amps when you would probably listen to one the majority of the time is the right way to do it in my estimatation . Good luck with thenew gear and let us know how things are working out with it.  This was the same reasoning  I used to move up through six different headphones until the senns 800 and now I am quite happy with the Elise and tubes I have. Good luck to you and stay tuned


----------



## connieflyer

Well time for some International video of the old days
 .


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp  I hope this video did not ruin my hopes of getting into UT's band.  I think I sound just like them (well maybe Jerry)


----------



## 2359glenn

spork67 said:


> While I had Elise I loved the sound.
> When I got the STAX system I wanted to prefer Elise for enough of my music to be able to justify keeping both.
> As it was, only a few tracks sounded "better" (to me) on Elise. That's odd, because although I have a varied music library I do listen to a lot of rock and some metal, which most people would say aren't an ideal match with e'stats.
> (The albums that DID sound better on Elise - to me - were the old Black Sabbath stuff, but they were only a tiny bit "better")
> ...


 

 The amp should be able to be switched from 230 to 115 but if not here is a transformer that will work.
 http://www.alliedelec.com/stancor-p-8639/70213283/
 And this power cable with a USA 230 volt power plug on it so it can be plugged into the transformer.
 http://www.alliedelec.com/volex-power-cords-17568-10-c3/70115996/


----------



## 2359glenn

spork67 said:


> While I had Elise I loved the sound.
> When I got the STAX system I wanted to prefer Elise for enough of my music to be able to justify keeping both.
> As it was, only a few tracks sounded "better" (to me) on Elise. That's odd, because although I have a varied music library I do listen to a lot of rock and some metal, which most people would say aren't an ideal match with e'stats.
> (The albums that DID sound better on Elise - to me - were the old Black Sabbath stuff, but they were only a tiny bit "better")
> ...


 

 The amp should be able to be switched from 230 to 115 but if not here is a transformer that will work.
 http://www.alliedelec.com/stancor-p-8639/70213283/
 And this power cable with a USA 230 volt power plug on it so it can be plugged into the transformer.
 http://www.alliedelec.com/volex-power-cords-17568-10-c3/70115996/


----------



## DavidA

@Spork67, too bad you couldn't keep both but this is just me, i like a lot of variety in wine, women and song


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Anyway, as promised yesterday, I have some enticing photos for anyone interested in the revised Elise...
> 
> But first, let me just repeat the main upgrades  :
> 
> ...


 
 CJ, thanks for the photos and summary of the upgrades. Looks good.
  
 Wonder if there's any re-tuning done?
  
 I hope this will translate into an Elise with more snap attack, even faster transient response, bite and transparency. Although I cannot envisage if that would be a better outcome as Elise in it's current state, is perfecto for me.


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  .... Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis !!! .... ok not too bad. At least it's not Tom and Jerry.
  
  
 I'll now play you a cool cool Christmas song. I want to wish you a Merry Christmas !


----------



## connieflyer

Good one @UntilThen and I raise you one


----------



## connieflyer

.I found this one on @pctazhp website


----------



## Oskari

:rolleyes: and  at these videos.


----------



## Spork67

Got some crackers to go with all this cheese.


----------



## connieflyer

Found the crackers now I know where the cheese went


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1 exactly a year ago, you were testing out EL3N. How quickly time passes.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/3960#post_12150475


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1 exactly a year ago, you were testing out EL3N. How quickly time passes.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/3960#post_12150475


 
  
 Yo UT...but actually, it seems a _lifetime_ ago now lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...probably 'cos of the monumental activity surrounding Elise - for better or worse!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 And now here I am with a nice collection of old EL11s - both mesh-plated and solid - adapted and ready to put through their paces..._*and no amp yet to put them in!!*_





. Still, I'd much rather F-A give the new amp a thorough testing before sending out to me...so long as it's _before_ Christmas LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(_please, please_ cross _your_ fingers and toes also - mine are suffering dreadful cramp!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)....CHEERS!...


----------



## connieflyer

@hypnos1 when you get the new Elise back I have just the sensitive video for you!  It is my new theme song and is so trueful!


----------



## connieflyer

And just so @UntilThen doesn't get jealous, I found your theme song as well..


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> @connieflyer  .... Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis !!! .... ok not too bad. At least it's not Tom and Jerry.
> 
> 
> I'll now play you a cool cool Christmas song. *I want to wish you a Merry Christmas !*


 
 We can’t say Merry Christmas here in the US anymore. So I wish you a Merry Day Intended for Every Type of Human Being Possible


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. Did I understand you to say you wanted Tom and Jerry????


----------



## connieflyer

I still say Merry Christmas to folks and so far people are kind of surprised but pleased. If any are offended, they have not shown it, of course it might be because I have a Glock 45 on my hip, but so far so good!  Merry Christmas folks!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I still say Merry Christmas to folks and so far people are kind of surprised but pleased. If any are offended, they have not shown it, of course it might be because I have a Glock 45 on my hip, but so far so good!  Merry Christmas folks!


 
 So funny))) Merry Christmas my friend


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Well time for some International video of the old days
> .





 CF:  I absolutely loved these guys. My older sisters wouldn't take me to see their movies because I would laugh so hard I would embarrass them to death. So I had to stay home and watch George and Gracie on TV.


----------



## canthearyou

Anyone planning on dumping their amp let me know.


----------



## Oskari

canthearyou said:


> Anyone planning on dumping their amp let me know.




Only serial amp offenders dump the Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

canthearyou said:


> Anyone planning on dumping their amp let me know.


 

 When the new Elise is finalized, depending on price and what have you, I will probably upgrade and will let you know.


----------



## connieflyer

Gracie Allen was such an understated comediane, great timing and comic relief.  What a talent.  @pctazhp my mother encouraged me to watch Dean and Jerry, as she wanted me to laugh more, to try to make up for the disappointment when I looked in the mirror and realized why everyone pointed at me and laughed!


----------



## connieflyer

It is hard to believe that tv programming used to have commercials after 15 minutes of program.  Interesting commercials on this clip.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Gracie Allen was such an understated comediane, great timing and comic relief.  What a talent.  @pctazhp my mother encouraged me to watch Dean and Jerry, as she wanted me to laugh more, to try to make up for the disappointment when I looked in the mirror and realized why everyone pointed at me and laughed!


 

 Very much agree with you about Gracie.
  
 After I was born my mother took down all the mirrors and hid them


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> CJ, thanks for the photos and summary of the upgrades. Looks good.
> 
> Wonder if there's any re-tuning done?
> 
> I hope this will translate into an Elise with more snap attack, even faster transient response, bite and transparency. Although I cannot envisage if that would be a better outcome as Elise in it's current state, is perfecto for me.


 
  
 Hi again UT...I would imagine that all the changes mentioned have re-tuned Elise a good deal already lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But then, I suspect those guys in Poland are keeping quite a lot up their sleeves...more than just _one_ Ace at that!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Funny you should mention all those other (_apparent!_) improvements in sound quality, but I'm fast coming round to the realisation that actually, such elements can only be truly addressed/effected by taking a massive leap into 'extreme' headphone territory. And by that I mean well beyond HD800/Beyer T1 land! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And so, to this end, I'm thinking (or is that _dreaming?!_) about carting my new amp - when she arrives -  to a dealer who may stock the Focal Utopia and see whether or not I have indeed finally lost the plot! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. At least this might just prove once and for all where the _really_ big bucks should go, and show the _potential_ of a unit that may (or may not) well belie its price by a massive margin LOL! However, this could well, of course, make it impossible for me to go back to my beloved T1s, in the same way the Beyers did for my 650s..._please_ tell me not to be so stupid, I beg you...(but can't promise to listen!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 ps. What has prompted this latest bout of madness?...a temporary return to loudspeakers and a reminder of just how cans cannot come anywhere near a good 'speaker system on a good few fronts lol! And so now I yearn for a headphone sound that might possibly get a _bit_ closer to such an experience at least, even though it is asking the near-impossible, and must inevitably be the height of "diminishing returns" alas!!...(I know, I know...what an idiot!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


connieflyer said:


> @hypnos1 when you get the new Elise back I have just the sensitive video for you!  It is my new theme song and is so trueful!




  
 Hey cf...how did you know that's my long-lost twin - the one with the hairy whiskers, that is!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. As for the accompanying car washers..._please_ don't distract me from the _really_ serious things in life now - sad or what lol?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


oskari said:


> Only serial amp offenders dump the Elise.


 
  
 Hey O...does that include me when I part with my beloved MKI lol?!!


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> And so, to this end, I'm thinking (or is that _dreaming?!_) about carting my new amp - when she arrives -  to a dealer who may stock the Focal Utopia and see whether or not I have indeed finally lost the plot!  . … _please_ tell me not to be so stupid, I beg you...(but can't promise to listen!!  ).




"Finally" :confused_face(1):  :rolleyes:  




hypnos1 said:


> Hey O...does that include me when I part with my beloved MKI lol?!!  :wink_face:




Force majeure…


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Funny you should mention all those other (_apparent!_) improvements in sound quality, but I'm fast coming round to the realisation that actually, such elements can only be truly addressed/effected by taking a massive leap into 'extreme' headphone territory. And by that I mean well beyond HD800/Beyer T1 land!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 We may have to start special thread for Billionaires of the World like you and Trump


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> It is hard to believe that tv programming used to have commercials after 15 minutes of program.  Interesting commercials on this clip.





 Then entire program was sponsored by one company. And whatever happened to the Yellow Pages??? Makes me realize how much things have changed since I was young. And no one ever consulted me about a single change 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 A lot of laughs packed into a single episode. That show and I Love Lucy were like rituals in our household. But my all time favorite comedy show was The Mary Tyler Moore Show. Lou and Ted always cracked me up


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> "Finally"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 En effet, mon ami...mais qu'est-ce qu'on peut faire?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


pctazhp said:


> We may have to start special thread for Billionaires of the World like you and Trump


 
  
 Me...and Trump? Now _there's_ a hot potato lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. At least _my_ Utopia wouldn't be quite on the scale of a fancy Golf Club in Scotland!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And I should remind you pct...insanity knows no bounds!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Actually, there's another side to this - I relish the thought of wiping the smirk off the face of the assistant who disdainfully implies...What, you're going to pair _*that*_ with *these?!!*  This exercise alone would be well worth the journey LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...WISH ME LUCK!...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again UT...I would imagine that all the changes mentioned have re-tuned Elise a good deal already lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Don't do it. Don't spend 4k on a headphone. Don't bring back the great depression. 4k Utopia buys more than 4k TV these days. I just watch 'Guardians of the Galaxy on a 65" and it was gorgeous colours.
  
 As for HiFi system in the lounge, now that's different. Go nuts. For that I will support your getting this


----------



## pctazhp

A friend of mine just posted this on Facebook. It reminded me that I have posted it here before (I think on the other thread). I will post it here again as my Christmas greeting to all the wonderful people here and on the other thread who have enriched my life throughout the year. I wish all of us and our patient, loving families peace, prosperity and good health.


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Don't do it. Don't spend 4k on a headphone. Don't bring back the great depression. 4k Utopia buys more than 4k TV these days. I just watch 'Guardians of the Galaxy on a 65" and it was gorgeous colours.
> 
> As for HiFi system in the lounge, now that's different. Go nuts. For that I will support your getting this


 
  
 Lovely horn.


----------



## UntilThen

For all the incredible posters on this thread and the other 2, here's a song for you. For braving ridicule, for crafting your posts, your jokes, your stories, your secrets, for not being a serial Elise dumpster, for your endless tube rolling, for your 1920s Youtube videos (gawd those hurts), for lurking, for being funny without being funny, you did it Your Way.
  
 Here's from the King himself.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> En effet, mon ami...mais qu'est-ce qu'on peut faire?!!! :rolleyes:




Peat fair you say? I think you meant the Peatbog Faeries.


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/jYMn7uZD1gs[/VIDEO]


I'll get me coat.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 As somebody who almost exclusively listens to speakers and always felt sort of left out in the numerous headphone pro/con discussions, it was a revelation when you stated that speakers bring out some aspects to listening that headphones cannot do.
  
_".a temporary return to loudspeakers and a reminder of just how cans cannot come anywhere near a good 'speaker system on a good few fronts lol! And so now I yearn for a headphone sound that might possibly get a bit closer to such an experience at least, "_
  
 So my question to you is: If speakers are superior, and you already seem to have good speakers, why the need to buy new headphones that may only approximate the sound of speakers?
  
 The Elise is an excellent preamp.......


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Don't do it. Don't spend 4k on a headphone. Don't bring back the great depression. 4k Utopia buys more than 4k TV these days. I just watch 'Guardians of the Galaxy on a 65" and it was gorgeous colours.
> 
> As for HiFi system in the lounge, now that's different. Go nuts. For that I will support your getting this


 
  
 Of course you're right UT...but you must admit it would at least be a VERY interesting exercise, no?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







  
 ps.  Forget the darned horn LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  


oskari said:


> Peat fair you say? I think you meant the Peatbog Faeries.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get me coat.


 
  
 And you thought *I'd* lost the plot, O?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> As somebody who almost exclusively listens to speakers and always felt sort of left out in the numerous headphone pro/con discussions, it was a revelation when you stated that speakers bring out some aspects to listening that headphones cannot do.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy..._very_ sore point, my friend! -  My whole reason for getting into HP amps, after beginning to get my hi-fi setup sounding reasonably good was for the sake of domestic harmony, I'm afraid to say...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I don't need to tell you that there's no point whatsoever having a good sound system if anything above a mouse squeak has a certain other member of the household putting a damper on proceedings lol...need I say more?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Hence, HEADPHONES!!..
  
 And after 3 months of self-inflicted exile from the joys of Elise, you can probably guess at my reason for clutching at _any_ straws at _any_ price LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. So perhaps shed a tear or two in this direction? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!, and g'night....zzzzzzzz


----------



## canthearyou

connieflyer said:


> When the new Elise is finalized, depending on price and what have you, I will probably upgrade and will let you know.




Sounds good!


----------



## DavidA

@hypnos1, the wife/girlfriend approval factor is well know to many, I'm lucky to have a GF who has very similar taste in music, wine, food and outlook on life.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> And you thought *I'd* lost the plot, O?!!!




According to UT, a captain and a psychic, we all have our ways.


----------



## connieflyer

@hypnos1 that is how I got into headphones so much was after my wife's (I had a few years before she did) retirement,it was not possible to monopolizes the system or play it loudly anymore. So the headphoes were a natural. Ended up with the Elise, and I think to do signifcanly better, I would have to spend more than I am willing to so unless things change this will be it (at least until the upgraded Elise is sorted out). Now alone, I do listen to speakers a lot more than before.


----------



## connieflyer

I assume I am one of the 2, and as number 2 of 2 is probably out on the town, living large on Saturday night, let me suggest that we include @hypnos1 in your new band, he will be a good man to have, we the stiff upper lip and all, especially if he plays the trumpet.@pctazhp number 2 of 2 has polished his kazoo, and I have the drum line down on the cigar box base, so we could use another horn.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I assume I am one of the 2, and as number 2 of 2 is probably out on the town, living large on Saturday night, let me suggest that we include @hypnos1 in your new band, he will be a good man to have, we the stiff upper lip and all, especially if he plays the trumpet.@pctazhp number 2 of 2 has polished his kazoo, and I have the drum line down on the cigar box base, so we could use another horn.


 

 I can't even begin to describe my wild Saturday night on the town, filled with debauchery and hedonistic pleasure, so I won't even try.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Don't do it. Don't spend 4k on a headphone. Don't bring back the great depression. 4k Utopia buys more than 4k TV these days. I just watch 'Guardians of the Galaxy on a 65" and it was gorgeous colours.
> 
> As for HiFi system in the lounge, now that's different. Go nuts. For that I will support your getting this


 

 My home is a horn-free zone. However, all women in short, black lingerie are welcome. Oh wait, I'm married. Ignore that last remark. In fact, my home is horn-free because I am married


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> @hypnos1, the wife/girlfriend approval factor is well know to many, I'm lucky to have a GF who has very similar taste in music, wine, food and outlook on life.


 

 David:  I haven't told you this in a while, but you remain my hero. In my next life, I want to come back as you. Any chance you'll be buying a Blue Hawaii and have it burned in for me????


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> When the new Elise is finalized, depending on price and what have you, I will probably upgrade and will let you know.


 

 You and I both need to do that so we'll have something new to talk about on our way to the magic 1500


----------



## connieflyer

By the way what magic does happen at 1500? Do we get an award like a cash award that we could buy the new Elite Four or perhaps they just give us one for free if that's the case I am all in. And I knew you would have an exciting night out with all the debauchery and other things that people do that are normal and younger.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> By the way what magic does happen at 1500? Do we get an award like a cash award that we could buy the new Elite Four or perhaps they just give us one for free if that's the case I am all in. And I knew you would have an exciting night out with all the debauchery and other things that people do that are normal and younger.


 

 Our reward will be a letter of commendation from our Leader In Chief, @UntilThen. Priceless )))
  
 Fortunately, I destroyed too many brain cells when I was younger to have any memories of those days.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> By the way what magic does happen at 1500?




It'll be like manna from heaven but I'm not allowed to tell you more. 




pctazhp said:


> I can't even begin to describe my wild Saturday night on the town, filled with debauchery and hedonistic pleasure, so I won't even try. :evil:







pctazhp said:


> Fortunately, I destroyed too many brain cells when I was younger to have any memories of those days.




I think I see a connection.


----------



## Arniesb

davida said:


> @hypnos1
> , the wife/girlfriend approval factor is well know to many, I'm lucky to have a GF who has very similar taste in music, wine, food and outlook on life.


Youre one lucky guy David Its like a perfect women you have!


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> A friend of mine just posted this on Facebook. It reminded me that I have posted it here before (I think on the other thread). I will post it here again as my Christmas greeting to all the wonderful people here and on the other thread who have enriched my life throughout the year. I wish all of us and our patient, loving families peace, prosperity and good health.




  
 I too wish all this...and more!! You have all enriched my life beyond measure...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  


davida said:


> @hypnos1, the wife/girlfriend approval factor is well know to many, I'm lucky to have a GF who has very similar taste in music, wine, food and outlook on life.


 
  
 Lucky indeed must you be, D...music (esp. _loud!_) and wine apart, I too count myself fortunate lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


connieflyer said:


> @hypnos1 that is how I got into headphones so much was after my wife's (I had a few years before she did) retirement,it was not possible to monopolizes the system or play it loudly anymore. So the headphoes were a natural. *Ended up with the Elise, and I think to do signifcanly better, I would have to spend more* than I am willing to so unless things change this will be it (at least until the upgraded Elise is sorted out). Now alone, I do listen to speakers a lot more than before.


 
  
 Even with @UntilThen's wise words still ringing in my ears, the more I ponder just how to move a step closer to loudspeaker sound via HPs, the more I am determined to at least see just what those Focal Utopias can do lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...my (convenient/flawed?) logic being :
  
 1. I truly believe the upgraded Elise will be capable of delivering even more than my T1s can reproduce, which would only really warrant taking a BIG step up in cans - anything else would be simply *side*-stepping, and for me, pointless (not to mention a real waste of money lol!).
 2. The 'horrendous' price pales when comparing with certain 'speaker systems.
 3. Said price is easily blown on just a half-decent fortnight holiday for two!
 4. Hopefully, the build quality would ensure many trouble-free years' listening pleasure...albeit never guaranteed, of course!
 5. A certain _frisson_ that comes from using something _*extra*_ special...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And so all above things considered, I may well just have sold myself completely on the idea LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...assuming they actually _do_ give what I'm looking for, that is!...and that would need to be somewhat more of the _*feel*_ that 'speakers give - ie. the latters' function of moving much greater volumes of air that you do indeed _feel_ as part of the sound experience, and not just _hear_. By definition, relatively tiny transducers cannot ever match such a feat of course, but perhaps (current!) state-of-the-art technology just might be able to _mimic_ the effect a bit better - I know, I know...clutching at straws here once again lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...pity a poor sinner!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 6. ?????!!!!!
  
  


connieflyer said:


> I assume I am one of the 2, and as number 2 of 2 is probably out on the town, living large on Saturday night, let me suggest that we include @hypnos1 in your new band, he will be a good man to have, we the stiff upper lip and all, especially if he plays the trumpet.@pctazhp number 2 of 2 has polished his kazoo, and I have the drum line down on the cigar box base, so we could use another horn.


 
  
 Hmmm, cf....that stiff upper lip has now set like concrete alas! But I did pluck/strum a few guitar strings _many_ moons ago a la Folk music lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


pctazhp said:


> Our reward will be a letter of commendation from our Leader In Chief, @UntilThen. Priceless )))
> 
> Fortunately, I destroyed too many brain cells when I was younger to have any memories of those days.


 
  
 Letter of commendation, pct?...should be more the Croix de Guerre at least, surely lol?!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## frederick-rea

there is a new review in Headfonics


----------



## UntilThen

It's a chuckle everyday on Elise thread but I'll have to detach myself a little as I start on a new contract today. Take care guys and I might pop-in in the evening.
  
 Be good and I'll give you any letter you need.


----------



## Spork67

He likes Elise.
 http://headfonics.com/2016/12/the-elise-by-feliks-audio/


----------



## Oskari

spork67 said:


> He likes Elise.
> http://headfonics.com/2016/12/the-elise-by-feliks-audio/




I have problems understanding some of his critique. He says that Elise's bass quantity with stock tubes is moderate and, as such, is not a good fit with bass-heavy headphones. :confused_face(1): Also I don't think he's a metallurgist by profession and he seems oblivious to the fact that he has the upgraded drivers.


----------



## DecentLevi

@hypnos1 and others here, I applaud your interest in the Focal Utopia headphones. I have tried it several times on two separate occasions, and I must say it is without a doubt my favorite current-production headphone. This cutting edge beryllium driver headphone sounded about as detailed as the electrostatic Stax SR-009 but with better (spot-on) dynamics, and like the best medley between the Stax and the dynamic driver HD-800.
  
 And though I haven't been much into speaker systems, the most expensive I've heard was somewhere in the ballpark of a $20-30k, and IIRC the Utopia sounded far more preferable to me. In case anyone missed it, here is a link to my impressions of the new Holo Audio Spring R2R / multibit DAC, done largely with the Focal Utopia headphones - in which I coined the word 'Awe'stonishing and got the chills all over my body... that is, paired with the GSX MK2 amp which outputs 20x more power at approx. 4 watts as opposed to Elise's 200ohms. I did find the Focal Utopia's pairing far better with beefier amps than the twice I've tried it with my Elise, but being the Utopia's are efficient @ only 80 ohms, perhaps the upgraded Elise could really be a fantastic pairing nevertheless.
  
 Also I'm curious if the new Elise is going to have increased output wattage?


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> David:  I haven't told you this in a while, but you remain my hero. In my next life, I want to come back as you. Any chance you'll be buying a Blue Hawaii and have it burned in for me????


 
 Sorry, I don't think I'll spend anymore on my Stax system since I like it a lot as is, also, don't have the table space for something that large, lol.
  
  


connieflyer said:


> By the way what magic does happen at 1500? Do we get an award like a cash award that we could buy the new Elite Four or perhaps they just give us one for free if that's the case I am all in. And I knew you would have an exciting night out with all the debauchery and other things that people do that are normal and younger.


 
 You get to be known as someone who has too much free time giving out great advice and are still enjoying life with nights of debauchery thrown in every now and then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 PS: forgot the great music recommendations from you and everyone else here.


----------



## DavidA

arniesb said:


> Youre one lucky guy David Its like a perfect women you have!


 
@hypnos1,
  
 Been married and divorced twice and had quite a few girlfriends over the years to find the current one, and I do consider myself quite fortunate to have her, I just can't have her see this post


----------



## connieflyer

Wow, fantastic, finally after all these years I get to enjoy debauchery. By the way, what is that anyways?





davida said:


> Sorry, I don't think I'll spend anymore on my Stax system since I like it a lot as is, also, don't have the table space for something that large, lol.
> 
> 
> You get to be known as someone who has too much free time giving out great advice and are still enjoying life with nights of debauchery thrown in every now and then
> ...


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> Wow, fantastic, finally after all these years I get to enjoy debauchery. By the way, what is that anyways?


 
 Lily was reading over my shoulder and couldn't stop laughing, thanks for making our weekend


----------



## DecentLevi

connieflyer said:


> Wow, fantastic, finally after all these years I get to enjoy debauchery. By the way, what is that anyways?


 
 debauchery:
_excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures; intemperance._
  
 I used to be more into that in my 20's, but didn't know the formal word for it. Come to think of it, debauchery also comes into 'play' with excess money so it can be for anyone


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> *debauchery:
> excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures; intemperance.*
> 
> I used to be more into that in my 20's, but didn't know the formal word for it. Come to think of it, debauchery also comes into 'play' with excess money so it can be for anyone


 
 You mean kind of like this


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's a chuckle everyday on Elise thread but I'll have to detach myself a little as I start on a new contract today. Take care guys and I might pop-in in the evening.
> 
> Be good and I'll give you any letter you need.


 

 Can I entice you back if I promise NOT to keep posting fine classics as this:


----------



## connieflyer

pctazhp said:


> You mean kind of like this


 yes finally food fight exclamation point


----------



## mordy

I read the review about the Elise, but cannot say that I understood everything - people on this thread write much better,
  
 However, his conclusion that the Elise is the best ever sub $1000 amp he has heard is a nice testimony to the greatness of the Elise.
  
http://headfonics.com/2016/12/the-elise-by-feliks-audio/


----------



## DavidA

just finished the debauchery thing with Lily, Naomi, some nice cabs, Cajun rib-eye, lobster sashimi and some old Bob James, Passport, Adele and a few of the recommended tunes posted in this thread, this was a good weekend indeed.


----------



## connieflyer

davida said:


> just finished the debauchery thing with Lily, Naomi, some nice cabs, Cajun rib-eye, lobster sashimi and some old Bob James, Passport, Adele and a few of the recommended tunes posted in this thread, this was a good weekend indeed.


 wait you had Adelle Naomi Lily Cajun ribeye and you had debauchery give me a break you had all that and debauchery my word you are a god!!!.


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> weight you had a Dell Naomi Lily Cajun ribeye and you had debauchery give me a break you had all that and debauchery my word you are a god.


 
 Are you as buzzed as me? lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  BTW, what ius a Dell?  on to some old Berlin and Keiko Matsui


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA LMAO,that is what happens when you shoveled snow all yesterday, got little sleep, and now have seven more inches of snow to clear this morning, and using a cell phone's tiny keyboard, with eyes full of sleep, not to mention old age, no breakfast, dog wnats to go for a walk in foot of snow, yea I am guilty, should have just read your post and moved on, but that is just not my way!  I will try harder next tiime! Getting to old for this, wish the snow blower would quit so I could


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> I read the review about the Elise, but cannot say that I understood everything - people on this thread write much better,
> 
> However, his conclusion that the Elise is the best ever sub $1000 amp he has heard is a nice testimony to the greatness of the Elise.
> 
> http://headfonics.com/2016/12/the-elise-by-feliks-audio/


 
  
 ..... and that was using the stock tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

Unless they are shipping psvane tubes as stock , those would be the upgraded tubes


----------



## pctazhp

Overall I thought the review was pretty good. I think he did a good job of describing it's price/performance qualities. And it is nice to see Elise get recognition.


----------



## HOWIE13

I thought the review was a fair assessment and a lot better presented than some amplifier reviews I've read.
  
 In a couple of places though I found it a little difficult to comprehend exactly what he meant.
  
 It's interesting that the same reviewer gave an even higher score to Espressivo, but that would be in relation to price, of course.
  
 It's all well deserved good news for Feliks-Audio.


----------



## angpsi

I love how everyone keeps saying "my Elise" as if they were referring to a person, or, for better or worse, "my Precious"! I'm barely able to keep my impatience under control...
Still waiting for mine, but it looks as if Headphonics got it in my place (PsVane tubes and all)! Guess I'm in for a "clinical experience" and an abundance of "depth of field"!


----------



## hypnos1

OK folks...pay attention now.
  
 Having just read the headfonics review, which can only be good for F-A (and _*US*_ lol!!) - especially his clear statements that Elise is "undisputably" the best sub-$999 tube amp he has heard... _*ever!*_...  (pretty darned good endorsement, in my book lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) - my spirits have taken another massive boost : ie.
  
                                                                                         *MY REVISED ELISE HAS SHIPPED!!! *










  
And so I really look forward to homing in especially on the points mentioned in said review. Mind you, things will, I'm sure, be quite different anyway given my own setup - especially with my favourite tubes and tube DAC. 
  
So, guys, hopefully there should be some very interesting comparisons in a week or so...assuming I can remember just how #001 sounded lol!! 





...(but if all else fails, there's no shortage of info to fall back on from the past two YEARS!!!).
  
 Needless to say, I am now a *VERY HAPPY CHAPPIE!*  But how can I sleep for the next few days - should I even try lol?!!!!
  
 Watch this space...


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1. Wild celebrations and dancing in the streets have broken out here in Scottsdale


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> I love how everyone keeps saying "my Elise" as if they were referring to a person, or, for better or worse, "my Precious"! I'm barely able to keep my impatience under control...
> Still waiting for mine, but it looks as if Headphonics got it in my place (PsVane tubes and all)! Guess I'm in for a "clinical experience" and an abundance of "depth of field"!


 

 Soon you will be in Middle Earth


----------



## connieflyer

hypnos1 The gods have given you a reprieve for not joining @untilthen band! Try to get all the rest you can, you will need it after the new amp aŕrives! Extremely happy for you


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks @connieflyer and @pctazhp for your kind words and support through all this...along with all you other great guys here in Elisedom. As has been stated many times by others, we are indeed a community unequalled in forum thread land...of that I am sure. Keep up the good work guys!...And yes, cf, I shall try my hardest to be refreshed anew for her arrival - it will be back to "Midnight missives" once more...*you have been warned!!*..(as has my better half lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








). Trouble is, I ain't getting any younger, and I really do need my beauty sleep alas...but who cares, when Elise is on the menu?!!...especially Elise "SE"/"Silver Edition"/"Optima"...all suggestions as to what she should be called are more than welcome folks!!
  
 And @DecentLevi, if I do indeed give the Utopias a listen with my new amp, I shall blame _*you*_ for leading me into bankruptcy lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. Your comments re. the need for more power to make 'em shine have sparked my optimism anew - my brief experience of the initial prototype certainly hinted at greater power/dynamics, even if the _actual_ power output figure isn't much higher per se (such a measurement doesn't always translate directly into just how a transducer is driven, of course...as per Yamamoto's wonderful creations, eg. a mere 2 Watts driving loudspeakers lol!!). So I am quite hopeful that F-A's new circuit design will indeed be able to make the Focals perform near their best!....Watch this space!!...


----------



## UntilThen

Lots happening here. Keep it up. The band must play on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Great news @hypnos1. Should get to you before Christmas.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Lots happening here. Keep it up. The band must play on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks UT...should be here in the next few days in fact - given a following wind lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And should be well burned in by Christmas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(domestic harmony notwithstanding, that is !! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 Maestro Henryk obviously wasn't going to let a troublesome Caddock resistor circuit beat him...thank goodness!...it appears they were quite surprised at the improvement in SQ from just this upgrade alone, so all is boding very well indeed - a truly wonderful Christmas present. The painful wait seems much less of an ordeal now...and that's before I've even opened the box LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(my hands are shaking with anticipation already!).


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Soon you will be in Middle Earth


 
  
 I just need to keep studying until then...
  

  
@hypnos1 good for you, I'm sure we're all looking forward to your impressions!


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> I just need to keep studying until then...
> 
> 
> 
> @hypnos1 good for you, I'm sure we're all looking forward to your impressions!




  
 And thanks to you too, angpsi...I only hope I don't upset too many folks who have already put in their orders for Elise MKI lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And re. your mention of "My Elise" nomenclature, I must warn you now that I myself unashamedly refer to my own "precious" as _*she!*_  I have indeed been ridiculed in the past for this "misdemeanour", but as far as I'm concerned, _any_ possession about which one is passionate; cossets dearly, and treats with loving care and attention surely deserves the _feminine_ gender...not that I would dream of associating the term "possession" to our dearly beloved ones lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(thank goodness _my_ better half isn't looking over my shoulder!!).


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 What I appreciated when the original Elise was being introduced was that Feliks Audio asked for input from the public in designing the amp and it's features. 
  
 The original amp, as examples, had a headphone jack at a front corner (the corner looked like a piece was sliced off for the jack), and no power indicator light on the front panel. At the request of people, the location for the headphone jack was changed to the front panel, and an indicator light was added to the front. In addition, we asked for a protective circuit in case a tube shorted out, and this was also added. There is no doubt in my mind that this circuit has saved several amps from oblivion.
  
 On my Elise the on/off switch in the back is illuminated - having the indicator light on the front eliminates the need for a switch that lights up, especially since it is hard to see.
  
 What I would like to see in the new Elise is a small built in fan that is very quiet to eliminate heat build up, which seems to be a potential problem.
  
 And a little dot or line on the volume control for visual confirmation (may be there already).
  
 And while I am wishing, why not a much beefier transformer that can handle 5A power tubes?
  
 Re the name I propose a simple name: *Elise SE* (Silver Edition/Special Edition - your choice!)


----------



## DecentLevi

RCA 6080 + RCA 12AV7 on the Elise​ ​  
Exquisite and limitless. Encircled with boundless energy! It's vivid, linear, lush, snappy and has superb instrument separation. Like a giant killer of headphones, this is the executioner of many, many tube combos that came before it. It is also a romantic songstress that adds a timeless ora to the likes of jazz and any well recorded analogue song.
 
THIS is perhaps the closest to "the truth" I've ever heard on the Elise, and I can say with utmost assurance this is the Elise in top flight!
 
After also trying *every other *(top)* driver combination with these RCA 6080's *the results I got were 'meh' or 'good', but nothing came close to this pairing. Three sets of 6SN7's including Ken-Rad VT-231, Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle and Sylvania 'Bad Boys' left me with a very boomy, unrefined 'back row' feeling. Pairing these 6080's with the EL3N resulted in a very off kilter tonality, too dark and lacking in detail, and pairing them with my miniature Tungsram E80CC gave a sound that was overtly clinical with a strange upper mid glare.
 
Next trying *other flagship powers with the RCA 12AV7 *miniature tubes, I heard a few strengths, but wanted to go right back to the above pairing. RCA 12AV7 with brown-base GEC 6AS7G had a fuller, slower sound with larger soundstage and further extruding lifelike elements, yet lacked the detail and cohesiveness / snappyness of the top mentioned pairing. Tung Sol 5998 coke bottle shaped powers with these miniature drivers sounded top notch yet maybe a slight step down from the GEC pairing, due to what I believe is the inherent sound signature of the TS 5998's: a bass quality that is a nuance off kilter as if it's ever so slightly too hollow and liquid. I also tried the GEC 6080 powers, which sound thin / bright as opposed to the "proper" sound of the RCA 6080's.
 
Other flagship multi-hundred dollar power combinations have varying minor advantages over the RCA 6080 + RCA 12AV7, but overall THIS is an ultimate in fidelity / transparency / linearity! My friends if you're pairing these RCA 6080's with anything other than the above you're not getting their full potential. What can I say... brand names can pair well!
 
PS - as mentioned before RCA 12AV7 are rare and require an adapter, but other versions are available such as RCA 12AU7, 12AX7 and 12AZ7 which are identical except for different gain factors. Those are cheap and RCA 6080's are as cheap as discount wine bottles!
 
PPS - this combo even seems to have the ability to make my least favorite DAC sound fantastic!!


----------



## DecentLevi

EDIT: The GEC 6080 + RCA 12AV7 is also another top favorite, but is preferred only for electronica and pop


----------



## Spork67

Did someone say female vocals?
  
 https://youtu.be/gi02zwXg6wo


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 As someone who introduced the RCA 6080 power tubes to the Elise forum (perhaps eliciting a few raised eyebrows), I appreciate your comments. You mention that you find them dark with the EL3N, but in my system which is on the bright side, they work very well. It is true that the RCA 6080 aren't the most detailed power tubes, but they have a wonderful musicality and really great mid bass.
  
 IMHO they sound better than the OEM Svetlana tubes, and as an upgrade option they may be the least expensive way to go.
  
 My favorite power tubes now are the GEC 6AS7/A1834, but as a budget alternative the RCA 6080 are hard to beat, sounding better than many higher priced tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> What I appreciated when the original Elise was being introduced was that Feliks Audio asked for input from the public in designing the amp and it's features.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Yes indeed, F-A certainly have been very accommodating to our wishes lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 With regard to the "SE" model - which I agree must be a top contender for name, even if rather ubiquitous! - some of the features you mentioned will most probably have to wait for Elise's successor a good bit further down the road (if one is actually needed LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 A fan and beefier trafo would also necessitate a new, bigger case and chassis of course...something they (understandably!) didn't want to undertake at this stage - the added cost would surely be a step way too far just now.
  
 They have obviously looked at the heat factor, given the two heatsinks already inside prior to the additional ventilation they discovered was needed just for the new Caddock resistor circuit. Extensive, prolonged high-load testing would now appear to have addressed this issue to Henryk's satisfaction...hence the extra pain endured re. the wait lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The first (new) prototype had a white line on the _side_ of the vol knob, as opposed to the tiny dot on the front of my original amp...I presume the finalised version will be the same...(will let you know when "The Eagle has Landed"!!!).
  
 Now, just the final wait...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(getting impatient already! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Spork67

Do many (any?) high end amps have fans?
 All class A amps, and all tube amps, get warm. Tubes HAVE to be warm to work, and good quality caps are happy enough up to 105c. Even cheap ones will get a reasonable life span at 85c, and IIRC someone checked the insides of Elise and she was nowhere near these temps. Passive cooling is the silent solution (both mechanical and electrical noise likely to be introduced by any integrated fan).
 SE (Silver Edition) sounds good - the next one (Mk3) would then be the GOLD!


----------



## hypnos1

spork67 said:


> Do many (any?) high end amps have fans?
> All class A amps, and all tube amps, get warm. Tubes HAVE to be warm to work, and good quality caps are happy enough up to 105c. Even cheap ones will get a reasonable life span at 85c, and IIRC someone checked the insides of Elise and she was nowhere near these temps. Passive cooling is the silent solution (both mechanical and electrical noise likely to be introduced by any integrated fan).
> SE (Silver Edition) sounds good - the next one (Mk3) would then be the GOLD!


 
  
 Hi S67.
  
 Must admit I MUCH prefer passive cooling that can dispense with the need for a fan and any _possible_ accompanying downsides. The only time I was a little concerned with my amp was when using the Mullard ECC31 drivers, which for some strange reason really pushed the temp. up high. And although _overall_ temperature may have been within the safe zone, it is just possible that certain _individual_ components could be nearing their max. operating parameters, which just _might_ then cause a problem if said component(s) were below 100% state in the first place! I'm quite sure this is in fact a scenario that has hit many a circuit at some time or other, regardless of cost/_usual_ reliability etc. - not every single component can be stress-tested before implementation of course, or "over-engineered" just to be on the safe side...(practicality/cost etc. etc.).
  
 And so I now view my prolonged wait agony in a much more positive light - ie. a _silent_, fan-free Elise SE (Silver Edition...*YES!!*) that has been pushed to limits I have no intention whatsoever of replicating anyway LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...BRING IT ON!!...


----------



## pctazhp

>


 
 New Elise, new excitement 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Right now I'm using my mundane "Old Elise" in a very mundane manner. I have to complete watching 15 hours of law videos by Thursday in order to stay out of trouble with the Arizona bar. This is the first year I'm watching these videos with Elise provided audio. As wonderful and magical as Elise is, I can report the videos are no more interesting this year.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> New Elise, new excitement
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Bet they would be with Elise SE lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...
  
 Whatever, pct, I wish you the best of luck with them there videos, mon ami...


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Good luck with your exams/certification - continuous education credits are a pain, but necessary to maintain your status.


----------



## connieflyer

Don't cram too hard we still have a rehearsal for the band....


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> I have to complete watching 15 hours of law videos by Thursday in order to stay out of trouble with the Arizona bar.




I doubt there's any Perry Mason or Della Street in them. I won't bore you with my "supplementary studies" stuff. Rest assured it would bore most of you. Thoroughly. :blink:


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> On my Elise the on/off switch in the back is illuminated - having the indicator light on the front eliminates the need for a switch that lights up, especially since it is hard to see.




I actually find the illuminated switch useful. The switch is easier to find in my mostly darkish room.


----------



## Spork67

pctazhp said:


> >
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Have you tried different tube combos to bring those videos to life and add excitement?


----------



## Oskari

spork67 said:


> Did someone say female vocals?
> 
> https://youtu.be/gi02zwXg6wo




A very strong presentation. As is this.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZt7J0iaUD0[/VIDEO]

_Luka_

Very sad yet so beautiful.  (add tears)


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> What I would like to see in the new Elise is a small built in fan that is very quiet to eliminate heat build up, which seems to be a potential problem.







spork67 said:


> Passive cooling is the silent solution (both mechanical and electrical noise likely to be introduced by any integrated fan).







hypnos1 said:


> Must admit I MUCH prefer passive cooling that can dispense with the need for a fan and any _possible_ accompanying downsides.




Excessive heat is very bad but I also have a huge preference for passive cooling.


----------



## pctazhp

spork67 said:


> Have you tried different tube combos to bring those videos to life and add excitement?


 

 I'm using the coolest running tubes I have. It's hard enough staying awake without sitting next to a lot of heat.


----------



## DavidA

oskari said:


> Excessive heat is very bad but I also have a huge preference for passive cooling.


 
 Being a computer guy I try to minimize heat for most electronics and have found cheap USB powered fans run at half speed to be very quiet, no electrical noise and give a good balance between keeping electronics from getting too warm.  Make sure you are powering the USB fans from a USB power adapter, rewire 12v fan to the 5v wires.


----------



## mordy

Hi DavidA,
  
  
 R u saying that I can run 12V PC fans off the 5V tap from a PC power supply?


----------



## mordy

It is clear to me that passive cooling is better, but there seems to be some constraints on using the same chassis as before (although the new version of Elise looks larger). So my suggestion of incorporating a fan is a Plan B, given the circumstances.
  
 As said before, there have been some heat issues with the Elise.


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> It's peak season for _Finlandia_.
> 
> 
> 
> Happy Independence Day!


 
  
 Yes, I know this is out of season but I just found about this version today. And this cannot wait.
  

  





 (add more tears)


----------



## DavidA

Quote: 





mordy said:


> Hi DavidA,
> 
> 
> R u saying that I can run 12V PC fans off the 5V tap from a PC power supply?


 
 Yes, but you will be doing some cutting and soldering, also have to make sure the USB power supply that you use has power to the 5v line, some only have power on the 12v line.  I found out about this working on computers where the power cables put out 12v, 7v, & 5v with ground and the older AT power supply even had 3.3v.
  
 I used to use a old AT power supply mounted on the back of my entertainment center to power computer case fans used to keep the temps within the entertainment center from going to meltdown.
  

 You can see the two fans and I also used some LED lighting to give it a nice glow when watching TV at night in addition to some lighting behind the TV to reduce eye strain from watching TV in a dark room.


----------



## Spork67

One very easy way to run a PC fan without a PC is to just hook it up to an old mobile phone charger (wall wart).
 Red wire to red wire, black wire to black wire. Should work with pretty much any case fan.
 The 'phone charger will typically be 5v instead of 12, so fan will run slow and quiet, but still move a little air.


----------



## DecentLevi

Apparently it really is a "thing" that DAC's can very much 'scale' well with USB interfaces such as converters, signal cleaners and reclockers.... _possibly _even as much as how headphones can scale with amps. This is something I have seen numerous times in the 'back' of many impressive Head-Fi user rigs. It's something I've largely ignored having *only* had the Wyrd USB signal isolater / enhancer for years as a pre-input to my DAC's, until just today recently going a bit bananas and getting the Singxer SU-1 USB interface, which has further propelled the fidelity on my Elise, now to soaring heights and even much grander than just yesterday!
  
 detailed post:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/810065/holo-audio-spring-r2r-dac/540#post_13086452
 (warning don't click here if money is on the fritz)


----------



## connieflyer

Beautiful video, we used to see the Norther Lights in Michigan when I was young, light polution has ruined that, we are lucky if we see a couple of dozen stars now. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## pctazhp

I'm enduring such pain watching these law videos, I have an uncontrollable need to try to inflict pain on others


----------



## connieflyer

Since @pctazhp wants to be annoying, I will offer not one but both sides of the story, good and bad,


----------



## DavidA

Here is my tune for my night of debauchery with Anna, Lily, and Jessica to begin now:


----------



## connieflyer

Here we go with debauchery again, where can I find some, checked the newspapers online and did not see it advertised.  Even Amazon did not have any!  Is this an NOS thing, may be I should check Ebay too. Both I hope I find some soon, don't want to miss out on it, you all seem to rate it highly!  Great song by the way.


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> Here we go with debauchery again, where can I find some, checked the newspapers online and did not see it advertised.  Even Amazon did not have any!  Is this an NOS thing, may be I should check Ebay too. Both I hope I find some soon, don't want to miss out on it, you all seem to rate it highly!  Great song by the way.


 
 Its found in the old friends who like to hang out after they finish work section and a girlfriend who is okay with me having female friends over.
 another tune you might like:


----------



## DavidA

Last tune for the night:
  

 a nice oldie from my high school days


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Beautiful video, we used to see the Norther Lights in Michigan when I was young, light polution has ruined that, we are lucky if we see a couple of dozen stars now. Thanks for sharing.




Yes, light pollution is a problem. Good shows are very rare where I am. One should travel further north.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> It is clear to me that passive cooling is better, but there seems to be some constraints on using the same chassis as before (although the new version of Elise looks larger). So my suggestion of incorporating a fan is a Plan B, given the circumstances.
> 
> As said before, there have been some heat issues with the Elise.


 
  
 I hear you mordy...even though it would appear Henryk has nailed any heat issue with the new amp, I would certainly advise anyone with an Elise in high ambient temp. conditions, or using tubes that have it running _extra_ hot to employ whatever cooling measures are viable/acceptable lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





..._just in case!_ Heat is indeed the arch enemy of electronic circuits...better safe than sorry...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And on the topic(?!!) of the NEW AMP (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...it looks as though a bit more pain might just return alas - my shipping notification was in fact the _booked_ date, not actual _shipping....aaaarrrrgh!!_  And so I just might not receive my overdue baby 'til next week...as Donkey in Shrek would say : _*I NEED A HUG*_  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 For my fellow (or would-possibly-be) UK Elise owners , my good friend @Acapella11 has almost convinced me to attend our local head-fi.org meet at Milton Keynes in April. Also, given my imminent arrival, I suppose I owe it to Feliks-Audio to make a special effort...interested, @HOWIE13?... Now then, @tjw321, given how I led you into temptation last time, are you brave enough to come along as well - especially as I might... _just *possibly*_ might... also have some Focal Utopias for company?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. Think REAL hard on this one lol!!...(but I would dearly love to meet up with you again also, mon ami...).
  
 Now I need to go drown my (temporary!) sorrows with another glass of rather nice Colombard/Chardonnay...although I do really prefer an even nicer Cabernet Sauvignon/Merlot blend LOL!!...CHEERS (Hic)!!!...CJ


----------



## pctazhp

> a nice oldie from my high school days


 

 Music from my high school days


----------



## DavidA

@pctazhp, you can be that old 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@hypnos1, the Colombard/Char blend is one that a friend had me try a few months ago, interesting wine but like you I'm more of a Cab/Merlot/Pinot person.


----------



## tjw321

hypnos1 said:


> I hear you mordy...even though it would appear Henryk has nailed any heat issue with the new amp, I would certainly advise anyone with an Elise in high ambient temp. conditions, or using tubes that have it running _extra_ hot to employ whatever cooling measures are viable/acceptable lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm planning on making the trip, but if I do, keep those Utopias away from my ears. I've only just got the T1s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I'd love to hear the Elise+ though.


----------



## hypnos1

tjw321 said:


> I'm planning on making the trip, but if I do, keep those Utopias away from my ears. I've only just got the T1s
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi tjw...looks like I'll be doing my utmost to be able to make it to MK after all lol!...SEE YOU THERE!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for the Utopias...have just read a review vs LCD4 and it  looks like I've a LOT more research to do!! But different gear, different ears - as always!  Whatever, I will definitely cart the new amp over to the Dealers, even if just for curiosity's sake LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but boy, are they gonna have to kick T1's a**!!). CHEERS!...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> I hear you mordy...even though it would appear Henryk has nailed any heat issue with the new amp, I would certainly advise anyone with an Elise in high ambient temp. conditions, or using tubes that have it running _extra_ hot to employ whatever cooling measures are viable/acceptable lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, I hope to come. Only catch is there is a family wedding around then so I hope there won't be a clash of dates. .


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Here is something to cheer you up while studying - guaranteed to make you smile:


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> *@pctazhp, you can be that old
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 David:  Don't believe anything I say. I don't even really exist. I'm really just the invention of a mad scientist with a very warped sense of humor


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Yes, I hope to come. Only catch is there is a family wedding around then so I hope there won't be a clash of dates. .


 
  
 Hey H13...Elise comes first around here - they'll just have to change the wedding date lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. But hope to see you there too...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


davida said:


> @hypnos1, the Colombard/Char blend is one that a friend had me try a few months ago, interesting wine but like you I'm more of a Cab/Merlot/Pinot person.


 
  
 Obviously a man of impeccable taste must you be...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


pctazhp said:


> David:  Don't believe anything I say. I don't even really exist.* I'm really just the invention of a mad scientist *with a very warped sense of humor


 
  
 Hmmm, pct...obviously not *Dr.* _*Frankenstein *_at least lol...thank Heavens!!!


----------



## hypnos1

Well, well guys...guess what I've just discovered - someone has enterprisingly got Mrs Xuling to make an EL11 to 6SN7 adapter (specially for Elise lol?!)...._*interesting!*_




  
 All I can say is...how dare you possibly beat me to seeing just how they perform?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...if so, you MUST (or be forever banished!) let us know the good - or not-so-good (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) - news LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...From my less-than-perfect trial through just one channel, I have to say I am _*mightily*_ impressed...and can't wait to see how the pair perform...(probably next Monday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 So far, while working on adapting them, I have really liked the old, black glass Valvos (late '30s early '40s with number around 100 mark just might get you the mesh-plates, but no guarantees!), and also the grey glass clear top RFT (East German) EL11, which actually appealed to me more than the all-grey Telefunken...although I wasn't able to test the latter properly (horrendously microphonic, to the point where just touching the vol. control or case was _*extremely*_ disconcerting, and would have been sent straight back in disgust had I not removed the old, loose base lol!).
  
 Anyway, I look forward to hearing results from whomsoever may have stolen my thunder...but I forgive you!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Well, well guys...guess what I've just discovered - someone has enterprisingly got Mrs Xuling to make an EL11 to 6SN7 adapter (specially for Elise lol?!)...._*interesting!*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Okay-it was me,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I've not assessed the tubes yet and won't post until you have had an opportunity to assess them properly yourself.
 You can also use EL12 tubes with the same adapter. They have double the gain of EL3N/EL11 tubes, I gather.
  
 Now I'm taking a long vacation.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Okay-it was me,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting that her Ebay add specifically says it is made for Elise.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Interesting that her Ebay add specifically says it is made for Elise.


 
 Yes she asked if it was for Elise-we are so famous, even in China 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Actually, the next question is whether she can make a dual EL11 adapter, like the one for EL3N, but that's for another day.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Okay-it was me,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Aha, H13....William Wallace rides again lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 What can I say but...WELL DONE!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And as for waiting for me...NO WAY!...I want your impressions _*now!!*_





...1. So that we guys can steal a march on others who are undoubtedly watching from the sidelines (assuming you give the green light!). 2. So that I can investigate if any _possible_ weaknesses are also present when driving the new amp.
  
 So _*please*_, forego the long vacation and GET TESTING!!  Plus, don't forget the obligatory photos lol! (By the way, which EL11s have you got, exactly?)....CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Re. the EL12, I have been wondering about those - as _*powers*_. But the prices are too high for me, on the whole. And wonder just how they'd be in a circuit designed for the 6AS7G - a rather high plate current draw perhaps?
  
 Edit...But then, triode-strapped does halve the figure, and the EL3N runs so _unbelievably_ cool!!


----------



## frederick-rea

Hi everybody
Still learning from you all (till the end of my days)
after laughing about your truly good sense of humor, let me ask something regarding EL3n and 6f8g Tung Sol as drivers with glorious MOV 6as7g. After 2 months with those Tung Sol now I refresh with a pair of EL3n and I found these later less than good regarding ts 6f8g. I found less stage hf somehow unveil midrange a little bit closed in the Philips, drums not so quick as well. Had my ears getting even more older than I really am? like some opinions from gurus
have good listenings
Have ALL a wonderful Christmas


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Interesting that her Ebay add specifically says it is made for Elise.


 
  
 Yo pct...as H13 says, "Feliks-Audio" is a name known by a good few more folks now, to be sure lol!


----------



## hypnos1

frederick-rea said:


> Hi everybody
> Still learning from you all (till the end of my days)
> after laughing about your truly good sense of humor, let me ask something regarding EL3n and 6f8g Tung Sol as drivers with glorious MOV 6as7g. After 2 months with those Tung Sol now I refresh with a pair of EL3n and I found these later less than good regarding ts 6f8g. I found less stage hf somehow unveil midrange a little bit closed in the Philips, drums not so quick as well. Had my ears getting even more older than I really am? like some opinions from gurus
> have good listenings
> Have ALL a wonderful Christmas


 
  
 Hi f-r.
  
 I personally suspect it's down to synergy with the rest of your system...especially the headphones - LCD XCs, I think?...(perhaps! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## louisxiawei

Hi gents,
  
 Hope you are doing well and ready for the festive joy. 
  
 My HIFI-TUNING fuse arrived two days ago. As you can see from the pictures: three types: T400 mA 630mA (those two are for my sbooster linear power supply) and one 1.6A for my Elise.
  
 In order to justify it will work on Elise, I only swapped Elise fuse with HIFI tuning one without changing my linear power supply's fuses and listen to it for two days.
  
 Although Lukasz told me in the email that HIFI fuse in their opinion is a snake oil and @hypnos1 told me there is not too much difference in SQ after he replaced the stock fuse with his own upgraded ones.
  
 I can positively confirm that there is an obvious improvement in Elise when I use HiFi-Tuning Supreme³ Fuse. The improvement is immediate, solid and WOW.
  
 More transparent sound, better instrumental separation and much better dynamic performance. The overall sound is significantly smoother, cleaner, shaper in a good way. 
  
 Thus, I challenge all previous comment regarding the "snake-oil"  fuse tuning. Please do try and feel what I hear.


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps part of what you heard was because when you pulled old fuse, it cleaned off the terminals so new fuse made better contact?


----------



## louisxiawei

connieflyer said:


> Perhaps part of what you heard was because when you pulled old fuse, it cleaned off the terminals so new fuse made better contact?I'


 
 I'm afraid that is not the case. I took the original fuse out for checking information several times and don't think fuse terminals are dirty and cleaning off will give such SQ improvment.
  
 I would say: practice speaks the loudest. 35 euro won't cost you a fortune and if it doesn't impress you like what I said, you can then challenge me back.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> I'm afraid that is not the case. I took the original fuse out for checking information several times and don't think fuse terminals are dirty and cleaning off will give such SQ improvment.
> 
> I would say: practice speaks the loudest. 35 euro won't cost you a fortune and if it doesn't impress you like what I said, you can then challenge me back.


 
 Hi Louis
  
 Is this the sort of fuse you bought?
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hi-FI-Tuning-20mm-x-5mm-Fuse-1-6A-T-Gold-/232091043932?hash=item3609b4485c:g:4d8AAOxy-j9SOzEa


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> Hi Louis
> 
> Is this the sort of fuse you bought?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hi-FI-Tuning-20mm-x-5mm-Fuse-1-6A-T-Gold-/232091043932?hash=item3609b4485c:g:4d8AAOxy-j9SOzEa


 
 Hey HOWIE,
  
 No, it's the one called HiFi-Tuning Supreme³. It's the one in black colour. Unfortunately, the official HIFI-TUNING UK reseller (analogueseduction) doesn't have T1.6A model so you have to go to kempe shop to buy the fuse shipped from Netherlands. 
  
 http://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/accessories/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses-101.html


----------



## connieflyer

Just checked their site, they want $61.20 plus shipping to the U.S.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Hey HOWIE,
> 
> No, it's the one called HiFi-Tuning Supreme³. It's the one in black colour. Unfortunately, the official HIFI-TUNING UK reseller (analogueseduction) doesn't have T1.6A model so you have to go to kempe shop to buy the fuse shipped from Netherlands.
> 
> http://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/accessories/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses-101.html


 
  


louisxiawei said:


> Hey HOWIE,
> 
> No, it's the one called HiFi-Tuning Supreme³. It's the one in black colour. Unfortunately, the official HIFI-TUNING UK reseller (analogueseduction) doesn't have T1.6A model so you have to go to kempe shop to buy the fuse shipped from Netherlands.
> 
> http://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/accessories/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses-101.html


 
 It's rather more expensive now, at £58 including postage to UK, but on the other hand the seller does accept returns, so I may be tempted. Thanks.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> It's rather more expensive now, at £58 including postage to UK, but on the other hand the seller does accept returns, so I may be tempted. Thanks.


 
 I'm so sorry, I gave you the wrong link, it should be 5x20 mm.
  
 http://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/accessories/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses-100.html


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> I'm so sorry, I gave you the wrong link, it should be 5x20 mm.
> 
> http://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/accessories/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses-100.html


 
  
 No problem, Louis.
  
 Does this look the real deal? I assume it's 'slow blow', whatever that means!!
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hi-Fi-Tuning-Supreme-20mm-x-5mm-Fuse-1-6A-T-/291784634703?hash=item43efb8314f:g:CQgAAOxynRRSOzIW


----------



## pctazhp

New Elise, EL11 tubes, god knows what other tubes (I can't keep up), David's girls, magic fuses, USB enhancers, debauchery, more adapters, $4,000 headphones (have I forgotten anything?) !!!  You guys are driving me to tears, if not to drink. I can't wait until next year when I can again escape into my law videos.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> No problem, Louis.
> 
> Does this look the real deal? I assume it's 'slow blow', whatever that means!!
> 
> ...


 
 Oh yes. That's the one. I got it wrong. The uk seller doesn't have 400 mA type not the T1.6A model.
  
 Yes, you need the slow blow 1.6A. Go for it! Hope it arrives before Christmas.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> New Elise, EL11 tubes, god knows what other tubes (I can't keep up), David's girls, magic fuses, USB enhancers, debauchery, more adapters, $4,000 headphones (have I forgotten anything?) !!!  You guys are driving me to tears, if not to drink. I can't wait until next year when I can again escape into my law videos.


 
  
 EL12 tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Aha, H13....William Wallace rides again lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H1.
 I think we both have a busy weekend ahead of us.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> EL12 tubes.


 
 Did I miss anything about good tubes like E12 and E11 tubes?
  
 I was quite busy recently and didn't keep updated with the thread.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Did I miss anything about good tubes like E12 and E11 tubes?
> 
> I was quite busy recently and didn't keep updated with the thread.


 
  
 Yep-if you blink you miss loads on this thread.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
  
 Following H1's suggestion, I'm trying out some EL11 and EL12 tubes over the weekend.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> Yep-if you blink you miss loads on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes indeed.
  
 Could you please be so kind that show me the shortcut link to those recommendation? Didn't find them through thread search. 
  
 Are EL11 and El12 used as power tube or driver tubes? Thanks in advance.


----------



## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> Yes indeed.
> 
> Could you please be so kind that show me the shortcut link to those recommendation? Didn't find them through thread search.
> 
> Are EL11 and El12 used as power tube or driver tubes? Thanks in advance.


 
 There's nothing really known about them with Elise yet.
  
 Several weeks ago H1 suggested EL11's might work well in Elise as they are electrically more or less identical to EL3N, but have much more 'user friendly' connector pins compared to the sometimes awkward EL3N base. 
  
 EL12 has a higher gain, I think close to 5998 tube gain (not sure about this), so would be more likely to use as a power tube only, like 5998. 
  
 I would imagine they won't be too different sonically from the excellent EL3N tubes, but maybe easier to manipulate in and out of their sockets. For me that would be good as I broke an EL3N adapter trying too hard to insert a tube.


----------



## louisxiawei

howie13 said:


> There's nothing really known about them with Elise yet.
> 
> Several weeks ago H1 suggested EL11's might work well in Elise as they are electrically more or less identical to EL3N, but have much more 'user friendly' connector pins compared to the sometimes awkward EL3N base.
> 
> I would imagine they won't be too different sonically from the excellent EL3N tubes, but maybe easier to manipulate in and out of their sockets. For me that would be good as I broke an EL3N adapter trying too hard to insert a tube.


 
 Thanks a lot HOWIE13 for the information. Yea, el3n adapter is a problem.
  
 Please do let us know how the EL11 and EL12 are going. I might need to get ready for the adapters first 
  
 Cheers for now.


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> I'm afraid that is not the case. I took the original fuse out for checking information several times and don't think fuse terminals are dirty and cleaning off will give such SQ improvment.
> 
> I would say: practice speaks the loudest. 35 euro won't cost you a fortune and if it doesn't impress you like what I said, you can then challenge me back.


 
  
 Hi louis...as with anything - and as @pctazhp has said before, the only expert is _*me*_ lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...if it works for one and not others, then c'est-la-vie! - especially given the possible disparity between scientific "fact" and practical (human) experience, not to mention the vast array of variables between different hi-fi setups and _environments!_ That _you_ notice a difference is all that really counts, of course...in my own case, for example, I noticed more of an improvement from my PowerInspired Mains Regenerator - but at greater cost of course!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. Others just might find no improvement at all...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...
  


pctazhp said:


> New Elise, EL11 tubes, god knows what other tubes (I can't keep up), David's girls, magic fuses, USB enhancers, debauchery, more adapters, $4,000 headphones (have I forgotten anything?) !!!  You guys are driving me to tears, if not to drink. I can't wait until next year when I can again escape into my law videos.


 
  
 Now then, pct, you've just _got_ to try and keep up...I have every faith in you, my friend! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


howie13 said:


> Thanks H1.
> I think we both have a busy weekend ahead of us.


 
  
 Sure wish I _*did*_ have such a weekend ahead, H13...my own hard work will be trying to contain the frustration of the extra wait lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(but I'm sure "She who must be obeyed" will find plenty to divert me from my sorrows! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


louisxiawei said:


> Yes indeed.
> 
> Could you please be so kind that show me the shortcut link to those recommendation? Didn't find them through thread search.
> 
> Are EL11 and El12 used as power tube or driver tubes? Thanks in advance.


 
  
 The EL11 is basically an EL3N with a different base, developed by Telefunken...but also made by the Philips group, including (mostly, it would appear) Valvo. And so, in our case, as a driver or in dual adapters as powers. The EL12 is basically an EL11 with twice the power output, as yet untested either as driver or power.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi louis...as with anything - and as @pctazhp has said before, the only expert is _*me*_ lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Oh, sorry, I forgot your Elise 'SE' hadn't arrived yet. Well you may just have to help the missus with the Christmas shopping as I did today and now my back is aching again.
  
 EDIT: If the EL11 works well maybe I should ask Mrs X if she can make a dual adapter-but better wait and see what the single tube sounds like first.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Oh, sorry, I forgot your Elise 'SE' hadn't arrived yet. Well you may just have to help the missus with the Christmas shopping as I did today and now my back is aching again.
> 
> EDIT: If the EL11 works well maybe I should ask Mrs X if she can make a dual adapter-but better wait and see what the single tube sounds like first.


 
  
_Please_ don't mention "Christmas Shopping"...the walls have ears...AND eyes lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And yeah, best to see whether the EL11 is in fact any different to the EL3N...but I must admit, the "German Steel" base does look much more user- friendly LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and those pins are built like tanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. Can't wait to hear your impressions...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> _Please_ don't mention "Christmas Shopping"...the walls have ears...AND eyes lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll try and have a good listen tomorrow and Saturday. We have a couple coming for dinner Saturday night, which is likely to be a boozy affair, so hopefully I'll be ready to post before 7.30 pm. 
  
 What I can say already is the adapter is very easy to use, so much so it's possible to tube roll without taking the adapter out of Elise. The tube just slips in and out like a well oiled piston.
  
 Sound wise- they work, but I've literally only listened for a few moments or so to check the tubes were okay.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> I'll try and have a good listen tomorrow and Saturday. We have a couple coming for dinner Saturday night, which is likely to be a boozy affair, so hopefully I'll be ready to post before 7.30 pm.
> 
> What I can say already is the adapter is very easy to use, so much so it's possible to tube roll without taking the adapter out of Elise. The tube just slips in and out like a well oiled piston.
> 
> Sound wise- they work, but I've literally only listened for a few moments or so to check the tubes were okay.


 
  
 And don't forget those photos, lol!


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> And don't forget those photos, lol!


 
  
 LOL -I never realised this thread would be such hard work


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> LOL -I never realised this thread would be such hard work


 
  
 You're learning, H13!


----------



## Spork67

If EL11 has twice the gain of EL3N, why would it need a "double adapter" to work as a power tube for Elise?
 Or am I missing something?
  
 The "six pack" sound, without the ungainly looking dual adapters would be nice.
  
 I'm still enjoying Elise vicariously through you guys - and almost daily can see the $ I'm saving not "having" to try this tube with that adapter...
 I should start banking all that $$$ ready for Elise SE to be offered to the public.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> If EL11 has twice the gain of EL3N, why would it need a "double adapter" to work as a power tube for Elise?
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> The "six pack" sound, without the ungainly looking dual adapters would be nice.
> ...


 
  
 Absolutely correct-but EL11 has a similar gain to EL3N and I was speculating the dual power adapter for the EL11, not EL12, which is the higher gain tube.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Same feeling here - finally, finally got the ultimate EL3N/GEC6AS7 set-up and .........boom!  Back to the drawing board.......
  
 But I am playing a game called Follow John (or Colin). Have to see how things pan out, or rather, mesh out lol.......


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Same feeling here - finally, finally got the ultimate EL3N/GEC6AS7 set-up and .........boom!  Back to the drawing board.......
> 
> But I am playing a game called Follow John (or Colin). Have to see how things pan out, or rather, mesh out lol.......


 

 Mordy:  Are we crazy OR are we crazy??? Yes. We are crazy!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Speaking of crazy, my all time favorite recording artist (RIP)


----------



## mordy

Tried to find out the amplification factor of the EL12 tube but couldn't from the spec sheets from Valvo, Telefunken and RFT, but my German is not the best. (What is Klirrfaktor?)
  
 In any case, these tubes draw 1.2A so using them as drivers would be a problem with 2.5A power tubes  (total 7.4A  which is above the recommended total of 6.8A)
  
 Used as dual power tubes would not be a problem. If you have a dual octal adapter, two individual EL12 adapters will fit easily on them in case a dual EL12 adapter isn't available.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Tried to find out the amplification factor of the EL12 tube but couldn't from the spec sheets from Valvo, Telefunken and RFT, but my German is not the best. (What is Klirrfaktor?)




Finding data as a triode is a problem.

_Klirrfaktor_ is harmonic distortion. The interesting value should be the transconductance, _Steilheit_.

My understanding is limited, so I won't even try to explain.



 http://www.r-type.org/addtext/add002.htm

Google away and you should find more about gain and transconductance.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Thanks for the Steilheit!
  
*The Steilheit (amplification factor) of an EL12 tube is 15 *. Compare this to 6AS7/6080 - 2, and 5998 - 5. 
  
*The EL11 draws* *0.9A and has an amplification factor of 9*
  
 The amplification factor of a 6SN7 is 20.
  
 Don't know how this translates sound wise in the Elise. 
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/082/e/EL12.pdf
  
 Was even able to find a spec sheet for the EL3N - looks like the amplification factor (S) is 9.
  
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/030/e/EL3N.pdf
  
 Thanks for your help
  
 PS: Assuming the above tubes to be pentodes, how do the values correspond when used in triode mode? (2359glenn?)


----------



## HOWIE13

Sometimes you can identify the amplification factor when trying to decipher tube data written in a foreign language by looking for the number with no unit.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Same feeling here - finally, finally got the ultimate EL3N/GEC6AS7 set-up and .........boom!  Back to the drawing board.......
> 
> But I am playing a game called Follow John (or Colin). Have to see how things pan out, or rather, mesh out lol.......


 
  
 Haha, m...I do love to keep you guys on your toes lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


pctazhp said:


> Mordy:  Are we crazy OR are we crazy??? Yes. We are crazy!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




  
 Yo, pct...we are ALL crazy here - an essential requirement in this, our wonderful community! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again @mordy
  
 Re. tube spec data..once more we're back to confusion territory - ie. _*voltage*_ "gain" vs _*current*_ "amplification".  With the EL12, I think it's the higher *Wattage* output that is relevant as a _power_ tube...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## UntilThen

Hi folks, it's been a really busy week for me. No time to post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Elise thread must go on though and I see you've already started on trialling EL11 and possibly EL12. All the best to you @HOWIE13. Safe tube rolling.
  
@hypnos1  all the best to you too as your Elise Mk2 gets closer to you.
  
 As for me, I've not touched Elise for 5 days !!! That's a first for me. Now powering it on again for the first time in 5 days, I'm gobsmacked at how ear tingling it sounds. Such lovely music it is making. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No wonder you guys are calling it 'your' Elise. Well this is 'my' Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Take care all... until then.


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## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Hi folks, it's been a really busy week for me. No time to post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice to hear from you UT...hope the "busy week" has topped up the pension pot, rather than _empty_ it lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Gobsmacked after just 5 days?...just imagine 3 _*months*_*!*





...will I be able to handle the shock come Monday?...(shall do my best - all in the line of duty! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Hope you can keep popping in as and when you can...your absence is always much noticed and regretted LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


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## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Hi folks, it's been a really busy week for me. No time to post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT, good to hear from you.
 So far no damage to Elise from the EL11/12. Thanks for your good wishes. Will report back soon. Continue to enjoy Elise.


----------



## louisxiawei

MY C3G arrived today! Am I the first one to try the C3G + GEC 6AS7G combo on Elise? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
*Impression*: In short: I prefer EL3N with GEC 6AS7. Feeling that C3G is pulling holy grail's leg. 
  
 The overall sound is a bit sharp for me, also dynamic is grainy. Guess I will use C3G with stock 6H13C.


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## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Nice to hear from you UT...hope the "busy week" has topped up the pension pot, rather than _empty_ it lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 3 months without Elise? Well be prepared for 7.3 Richter scale earthquake when you first fire up the 'upgraded' Elise. My eyes will keep popping in to see your report. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Remember to give us the low down on recommended tubes and unofficial tubes, on how it sounds in the new Elise.
  


howie13 said:


> Hi UT, good to hear from you.
> So far no damage to Elise from the EL11/12. Thanks for your good wishes. Will report back soon. Continue to enjoy Elise.


 
 Looking forward to EL12 performance as power tubes and EL11 / EL3N differences if any, as drivers. Cheers Howie. Take your time.
  
 ... and as H1 says, the mandatory photoshoot.


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> MY C3G arrived today! Am I the first one to try the C3G + GEC 6AS7G combo on Elise?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well done Louis. Those C3G looks new. Now you have a wider selection of tubes and you will start to appreciate having Elise as a tube amp. 
  
 Remember too that new tubes needs burn-in which could alter the sound.... and your ears of course. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Personally I think the gec 6as7g looks better without the socket savers. It's looking too tall with it.


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## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> 3 months without Elise? Well be prepared for 7.3 Richter scale earthquake when you first fire up the 'upgraded' Elise. My eyes will keep popping in to see your report.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 LOL- Let's hope my tube evaluation is better than my photography.


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## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> MY C3G arrived today! Am I the first one to try the C3G + GEC 6AS7G combo on Elise?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I really like the C3Gs with the GEC powers - maybe even prefer to EL3Ns. As much as I like EL3Ns, I have never been completely comfortable with them. It may be my HD800S. I have speculated in the past that the EL3Ns running as drivers in Elise may add a little too much 2nd order harmonic distortion for the S, which already has a little 2nd order harmonic distortion intentionally added to boost the bass. The bass with the C3Gs is strong, but better controlled than with the EL3N.
  
 I understand your comment about "sharp" with the C3G, but in my system it isn't a problem for me. Also, I would echo @UntilThen comment about giving tubes a chance to burn in before reaching any final conclusion.
  
 Happy listening


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## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I really like the C3Gs with the GEC powers - maybe even prefer to EL3Ns. As much as I like EL3Ns, I have never been completely comfortable with them. It may be my HD800S. I have speculated in the past that the EL3Ns running as drivers in Elise may add a little too much 2nd order harmonic distortion for the S, which already has a little 2nd order harmonic distortion intentionally added to boost the bass. The bass with the C3Gs is strong, but better controlled than with the EL3N.
> 
> I understand your comment about "sharp" with the C3G, but in my system it isn't a problem for me. Also, I would echo @UntilThen comment about giving tubes a chance to burn in before reaching any final conclusion.
> 
> Happy listening


 
 I did think that a brighter driver might suit your HD800S better. So I'm not surprised if you did like the C3G and gec 6as7g combo more.
  
 The first ever combo I heard on 'my' Elise is Lorenz c3g and Tung Sol 5998 with HD650. That elicited this response.


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## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> *I did think that a brighter driver might suit your HD800S better. *So I'm not surprised if you did like the C3G and gec 6as7g combo more.
> 
> The first ever combo I heard on 'my' Elise is Lorenz c3g and Tung Sol 5998 with HD650. That elicited this response.


 
 I remember that from one of our earlier discussions.
  
 Picture absolutely cracks me up


----------



## louisxiawei

pctazhp said:


> I really like the C3Gs with the GEC powers - maybe even prefer to EL3Ns. As much as I like EL3Ns, I have never been completely comfortable with them. It may be my HD800S. I have speculated in the past that the EL3Ns running as drivers in Elise may add a little too much 2nd order harmonic distortion for the S, which already has a little 2nd order harmonic distortion intentionally added to boost the bass. The bass with the C3Gs is strong, but better controlled than with the EL3N.
> 
> I understand your comment about "sharp" with the C3G, but in my system it isn't a problem for me. Also, I would echo @UntilThen comment about giving tubes a chance to burn in before reaching any final conclusion.
> 
> Happy listening


 
 Thanks pctazhp, I will give it a burn and see what happens. 
  
  


untilthen said:


> Well done Louis. Those C3G looks new. Now you have a wider selection of tubes and you will start to appreciate having Elise as a tube amp.
> 
> Remember too that new tubes needs burn-in which could alter the sound.... and your ears of course.
> 
> ...


 
 Hey UT. You are right, GEC 6AS7G is too tall indeed. But the GEC 6AS7G was plugged into the socket saver so tight that it cannot be easily unplugged. So I just leave it be. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I do hear a little occasional hum when using GEC 6AS7G with socket saver, guess I just need to make some effort to unplug the holy grail and let it shine on it own.  Also thanks to you for the recommendation of C3G. I will run a bit longer and hope the sound will get better.
  
  
 Cheers!


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## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> LOL- Let's hope my tube evaluation is better than my photography.


 
 As long as your photography is the standard of this Elle Macpherson photoshoot for Rolex, we'll have no problem with your evaluation.


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## pctazhp

BTW, @UntilThen, C3G is what led me to Elise. Back in my Little Dot IV days I talked to @hypnos1 about a C3G adapter before Mrs. X built hers, and the rest is history


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## connieflyer

How come the girl has the watch on her right hand is that an Aussie thing?


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## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> How come the girl has the watch on her right hand is that an Aussie thing?


 

 Maybe because photo was taken in the Southern hemisphere??? Synergy with the way toilets flush???


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## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> BTW, @UntilThen, C3G is what led me to Elise. Back in my Little Dot IV days I talked to @hypnos1 about a C3G adapter before Mrs. X built hers, and the rest is history


 
 I burst onto the Elise thread when C3G was the rage too. Just as I agree to buy a pair of Lorenz c3g and H1's adapter from a fellow Elise owner, everyone was going after the next model - the Mullard ECC31. In those days, the flavour of the month literally changes by the month.
  
 Following that, I traded my 'prize' 'new' 'in the box' Chatham 6as7g for a pair of Valvo c3g/s - 's' for supreme. The rest is my history.


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## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> How come the girl has the watch on her right hand is that an Aussie thing?


 
 Rolex on the right hand. 100 carat diamond ring on the left hand, buddy.


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## UntilThen

My song contribution for today. Remember this from the eighties?


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## connieflyer

@UntilThen you can tell we are not in our twenties anymore, we saw the jewelry instead her other assets!


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## UntilThen

CF good point which I'm trying to drive. 

When you look at Elise, don't just focus on the tubes. You need to look at the big picture.

Am I correct barrister @pctazhp? Pretty sure they teach this in law school. Look at the overall picture !


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## HOWIE13

Here we go!
  
  

  
  
 I used my Telefunken EL11 and RFT EL12 tubes with CD and Mimby as source, listening mainly to Classical and Jazz.
 Cans are T1g2.
 Here’s what I discovered. If you want to skip the detail there’s a summary near the end. Hope you find this useful.
  
 Although the Telefunken EL11 is electrically pretty well identical to the Philips EL3N, I discovered it’s NOT a sonic ‘drop in’ replacement for the Philips.
 On the other hand, the exciting news is that the Telefunkens very much have their own distinctive sound signature, and therefore afford even more opportunities to tweak Elise.
  

  
  
 My EL11 tubes are old, 1938-1949. It’s impossible to see the plates because they have darkened glass. Except for one tube markings on the glass are generally sparse. There is a white number on each base, though I don’t know its significance.
 The sound seems consistent from tube to tube.
  
 The RFT EL12 tubes are 1950/60 period.
  
 Both tube types readily insert in and out of the custom made adapters and stay securely in place.
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-EL11-EL12-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201726996830?hash=item2ef7ddb15e:g:EssAAOSw-0xYNXI5
  
  
  

  
  
 I started (see photo above) by replacing the two EL3N drivers in ‘6 pack’ with two EL11 drivers and it was obvious from the outset that the sound was more energetic and sparking. Treble was refined, effortless and extended. Mids were a bit more forward and the stage a bit deeper, though slightly less wide than with the EL3N drivers.
 The bass was more rhythmic and better defined, though not any more extended, compared to EL3N drivers.
 Overall, clarity and imaging were increased, although ‘6 pack’ still had the edge when it came to sonic warmth with its characteristic embracing ‘glow’.
  
  

  
  
 Next up, (see photo above) I substituted the ‘4 pack’ EL3N powers for one EL12 per socket so now I was simultaneously using both EL11 (drivers) and EL12 (power) tubes.
 The vitalised EL11 sound character remained as before, but now there was a deepening of the sound stage so that the effect was totally holographic, everything coming into 3D focus with an open, airy treble, firm, clear bass and perfectly projected mid range.
  
  
  

  
  
 Finally, (see photo above) I paired the two RFT powers with two EL3N drivers and the deep sound stage remained, with a little widening and warmth added to the sound. Detail, dynamics and imaging were not quite as good as with the EL11 drivers, but there was more of the typical EL3N incandescence.
  
*To summarise:* the EL12 powers provide a big, holographic sound stage, whilst the EL11 drivers add agility, dynamics, clarity, great imaging, zest and fizz compared to the already excellent EL3N tube sound.
  
 Telefunken EL11 drivers and RFT EL12 power tubes, used together, for my ears and musical tastes, are probably the best sound I’ve experienced in Elise. They also have a pitch black background.
 Total cost, with adapters, tax and shipping, about £160.
 I’ve not heard the GEC and Bendix tubes though, so I can’t compare to them.
  
_*Congratulations @hypnos1 for coming up with the idea of trying EL11 tubes in the first place-yet another innovative success!!*_
  
 PS. I only tried the EL12 because Mrs X’s adapter fits EL12 tubes too.
 EL12, unlike EL11, is not electrically similar to EL3N, and if the amp is damaged, the warranty may be void.


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## UntilThen

Amazing @HOWIE13 .  That review is worthy of the Elle Macpherson photoshoot. Concise, to the point, descriptions of how the EL11 and EL12 sounds like(very important here) , covering the various combinations, with pictures !!!  
  
 Well done. !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
  
 The adapters looks more streamline compared to EL3N adapters. Much neater. Also there seems to be 2 different shape tubes of EL12 on eBay. There's a version that looks similar to your EL11.


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## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Amazing @HOWIE13 .  That review is worthy of the Elle Macpherson photoshoot. Concise, to the point, descriptions of how the EL11 and EL12 sounds like(very important here) , covering the various combinations, with pictures !!!
> 
> Well done. !!!


 
  
 Thanks UT. The pictures were the most challenging part -took me ages. I still have no idea how to get the flash to work properly.


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## hypnos1

GOOD WORK! @HOWIE13...both re. your assessments and photos...CONGRATS to you...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Your points re. the differences between EL11 and EL3N confirm my suspicions from hearing just one channel...at first I thought I was listening to a C3g'S' lol! - with the TFK and RFT, at least. The mesh-plate black glass Valvos have a slightly sweeter treble...from just the single anyway!
  
 Your EL12s are actually the EL12*N* - the plain 12 is ST shape as per 11 and EL3N, so perhaps there's a slight difference in sound ('ST' tubes are usually preferred to the straight-sided, so further investigation will be needed lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Methinks a word with Lukasz is needed to confirm if the EL12 is in fact OK to use in the 6AS7G circuit - if so, this could indeed be another winner!...except they are hard to find at a 'decent' price (the ST-type, that is..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 And so we look forward to hearing how things develop with further burn-in...but it does look like the EL11 is indeed another success lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now I REALLY can't wait to see how they perform in the new amp...am getting even _more_ impatient now - I should have asked you to delay your testing LOL!!! (No, not really!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...am just glad you're happy with the results...CHEERS!...).


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> PS. I only tried the EL12 because Mrs X’s adapter fits EL12 tubes too.
> EL12, unlike EL11, is not electrically similar to EL3N, and if the amp is damaged, the warranty may be void.


 
 The fact is EL3N, EL11 and EL12 are all unofficial tubes. So forget about warranty. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 However, I've used EL3N long enough to be confident that it's safe to be used in Elise. H1 and many others have also been using EL3N for a long time now. EL3N feels much cooler than 6SN7 even though EL3N is 0.9A.
  
 EL11 has similar tube data to EL3N so that should be safe as well.
  
 EL12 is 1.2A but if you're using it as power tubes, that's much less than the 6AS7G (2.5A). 
  
 EL11 and EL12 should operate with less heat and Elise should feel cooler.
  
 Intrigued by the sound you described, I've just purchased a pair of Telefunken EL11.


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## jelt2359

Has anyone tried the dual el3n to 6sn7 adaptor on other amps? Tried it on my otl, only getting sound from one side.


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## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> GOOD WORK! @HOWIE13...both re. your assessments and photos...CONGRATS to you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H1.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have one Coke bottle shaped EL12, but haven't tried it yet. I'm on the look out for another, as you suggest- at a reasonable price, of course. The EL11/12 do seem to synergise well together.
  
 I also wondered if the Philips EL11 might sound more similar to the Philips EL3N, but I've only seen one for sale and it was expensive.
  
 Now all eyes are on you as we eagerly await your assessment of the new Elise.
  
 I presume you will be tracking the UPS van through Europe on Google Earth road view maps (as I did) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Oh nearly forgot-I've enquired from Mrs X about the possibility of a dual EL11 adapter.


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## UntilThen

jelt2359 said:


> Has anyone tried the dual el3n to 6sn7 adaptor on other amps? Tried it on my otl, only getting sound from one side.


 
 Don't think any of us have tried it on other amps apart from Elise. @whirlwind have used the dual EL3N on his Glenn otl and it's working well for him.


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## mordy

What is the difference between a straight glass EL11 and a ST (Shoulder Type/Coke bottle) EL11?
  
 Is ECL11 suitable for the Elise?
  
 Triode+Output-Tetrode launched early 1939 by Telefunken Predecessor: ~EL11 Successor: ~ECL113, The ECL11 is an output tube EL11 completed by a preamp-triode, thus the entire AF-part is accommodated in a single tube. A superhet then may be fitted with the lineup ECH11, EBF11 and ECL11, saving one tube. With exception of Tungsram the ECL11 was always sold as beam-power-tetrode.  
  
 Triode, pentode - I have some understanding of these. What is a beam-power tetrode?


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## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen you can tell we are not in our twenties anymore, we saw the jewelry instead her other assets!


 

 CF:  I'm glad you didn't include me in that comment. I noticed the look of wisdom in her eyes. I certainly know "assets" when I see them


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## connieflyer

I have always believed there are "assets and there are assets" glad that at least one of us can still see that she is a very errr ahhh intelligent lady to pick such a fine watch!


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## pctazhp

@HOWIE13. Thanks so much for your great work. With substantive contributions like yours, there's actually still hope for this thread


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## connieflyer

@HOWIE13 do you ever long for the old Ember days when tube rolling was so much easier and less expensive, of course not as rewarding, but then most of the members were young and eager, instead of the old guys that post here!  Present company excluded of course!  Nice post on the EL11's looks very promising.


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## whirlwind

howie13 said:


> Here we go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sounds very promising and another good option for the people who like to roll tubes....good stuff.
  


jelt2359 said:


> Has anyone tried the dual el3n to 6sn7 adaptor on other amps? Tried it on my otl, only getting sound from one side.


 
 Maybe try switching the tubes in the sockets...may tell you is it a tube or the adapter.....I did indeed have a bad adapter the first time.


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## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> @HOWIE13. Thanks so much for your great work. With substantive contributions like yours, there's actually still hope for this thread


 
  
 I so appreciate your kind words, pctazhp.. If ever there was a 'labour of love' it's evaluating tubes in Elise.
  
 Incidently, I meant to say to you that it was continuing professional development that finally drove me to retire- not that I mind because Elise has filled in all my spare time (and more!).
 It wasn't so much the reading and videos but all the paperwork and evidence gathering that p****d me off. Worse than the actual work.


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## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I so appreciate your kind words, pctazhp.. If ever there was a 'labour of love' it's evaluating tubes in Elise.
> 
> Incidently, I meant to say to you that it was continuing professional development that finally drove me to retire- not that I mind because Elise has filled in all my spare time (and more!).
> It wasn't so much the reading and videos but all the paperwork and evidence gathering that p****d me off. Worse than the actual work.


 

 You are very welcome. Actually, I'm within a few months of retiring - yaaaaaaaaaay


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## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> @HOWIE13 do you ever long for the old Ember days when tube rolling was so much easier and less expensive, of course not as rewarding, but then most of the members were young and eager, instead of the old guys that post here!  Present company excluded of course!  Nice post on the EL11's looks very promising.


 
 Thanks Don. Yes we need to see how others find these tubes. Isn't it amazing how even 'more mature' brains can readily adapt and explore music. Yes it was easier and cheaper with one tube and didn't we have great fun when we discovered dual single octal set-ups.
 I remember when you pointed me in the direction of the gorgeous 6L5 tube. Come to think of it, in it's own context it's sound character isn't a million miles away from EL3N.
 Maybe I should try 6L5's in Elise.-only joking, I've done enough rolling for now, Need to give Elise's sockets a restful holiday for Christmas.


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## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> You are very welcome. Actually, I'm within a few months of retiring - yaaaaaaaaaay


 
 Then you will have more time to _really_ start tube rolling. LOL.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## pctazhp

@DavidA. This is for you. It was one of my favorite songs when I was still in grade school. I had the original DOT (a great name in those days) 45 rpm. This song and the original Hawaii 50 ("Book em Danno") left a permanent childhood impression that Hawaii must be heaven on earth. Fortunately, as an adult I was able to visit and confirm my childhood impressions. The audio on this video is poor - much better on Tidal HD. Hope this isn't too corny for you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 Unfortunately, Robin didn't age too well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 
  
 Edit: Just realized Hawaii 50 was 1968-1980. Well that was still my childhood


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## DavidA

@pctazhp, congrats on your impending retirement, I've been retired since Feb 2014, I took the early retirement offered by the FED Govt, they gave me 3 years of service for free to make my minimum age.
  
 My first 45 was Sugar Sugar by the Archies, my mom brought it home one day since she saw it at the store across from her work place, and I still have it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  I have never heard "Susie Darlin'
  
 By the way, are you getting up or still haven't gone to sleep?  I'm getting ready to sleep, Lily went to sleep a few hours ago but I wanted to listen to some Keiko Matsui, Passport and Boston.


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## pctazhp

davida said:


> @pctazhp, congrats on your impending retirement, I've been retired since Feb 2014, I took the early retirement offered by the FED Govt, they gave me 3 years of service for free to make my minimum age.
> 
> My first 45 was Sugar Sugar by the Archies, my mom brought it home one day since she saw it at the store across from her work place, and I still have it
> 
> ...


 

 Ha)))) There were days in my distant past when I would be going to sleep about now. Those days are gone forever!!! Happy sleep


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> *The Steilheit (amplification factor) of an EL12 tube is 15* .







hypnos1 said:


> Re. tube spec data..once more we're back to confusion territory - ie. _*voltage*_ "gain" vs _*current*_ "amplification".  With the EL12, I think it's the higher *Wattage* output that is relevant as a _power_ tube...:rolleyes: :bigsmile_face: ...




Indeed. The Steilheit is transconductance, not amplification factor aka gain.




mordy said:


> Triode, pentode - I have some understanding of these. What is a beam-power tetrode?






 http://www.r-type.org/static/grid14.htm


Edit: can't spell.


----------



## pctazhp

I've been spending more time with C3G/GEC6AS7G. I'm tempted to say this combo in Elise may be approaching the holy grail for HD800S. Bass is powerful, controlled and well integrated into rest of FR. Imaging is precise with great layering. Highs sparkle. Mids are clear and natural. Very dynamic. I really like what I'm hearing.


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## connieflyer

@pctazhp as long as you are using such a high end combo, let me see how they sound with my first 45


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## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp as long as you are using such a high end combo, let me see how they sound with my first 45





 OMG!!! YOU HAVE JUST MADE MY DAY))) I haven't thought of that record for at least several centuries. I'm laughing so hard right now I hope I don't break something


----------



## connieflyer

My dad told me I could only play it while he was at work, seems I played it to many times!  They made some weird ones back then!


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> What is the difference between a straight glass EL11 and a ST (Shoulder Type/Coke bottle) EL11?




The vintage more or less.




> Is ECL11 suitable for the Elise?
> 
> Triode+Output-Tetrode launched early 1939 by Telefunken Predecessor: ~EL11 Successor: ~ECL113, The ECL11 is an output tube EL11 completed by a preamp-triode, thus the entire AF-part is accommodated in a single tube. A superhet then may be fitted with the lineup ECH11, EBF11 and ECL11, saving one tube. With exception of Tungsram the ECL11 was always sold as beam-power-tetrode.




The C (triode) section is additional but the L (pentode/tetrode) section seems quite similar. The pinout is very different.


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## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> My dad told me I could only play it while he was at work, seems I played it to many times!  They made some weird ones back then!


 

 CF:  I couldn't possibly top Flying Saucers)) But I am reminded that both you and I have been blessed to live at a time of a wealth of music beyond comprehension. And we are fortunate enough to have lived long enough to discover that much of it has been preserved and is now available to us via miracle audio systems we could not have possibly envisioned when we were kids. It's ironic that tubes made when we were kids are often used in one of the modern miracles - our Elise)))
  
 Have a great day my friend.


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## connieflyer

Great song, I agree on when we lived, what a great time.  Of course the new generation has some redeeming qualities....


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I've been spending more time with C3G/GEC6AS7G. I'm tempted to say this combo in Elise may be approaching the holy grail for HD800S. Bass is powerful, controlled and well integrated into rest of FR. Imaging is precise with great layering. Highs sparkle. Mids are clear and natural. Very dynamic. I really like what I'm hearing.


 
 I like what I'm hearing with c3g and 5998 on T1 too. Clarity, details and punch. It's still on my Elise now. I'm interested to hear EL11 and 5998 combo. @HOWIE13 did you try it?
  
 Incidentally this is the pair I bought last night.


----------



## connieflyer

So that is who won them.  I was looking at some on Ebay, but could not find any mention of mesh plates. And with the solid grey paint I could not see inside them.
 Let us know what you think of them.  Prices are getting up there so someone is buying them up.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> So that is who won them.  I was looking at some on Ebay, but could not find any mention of mesh plates. And with the solid grey paint I could not see inside them.
> Let us know what you think of them.  Prices are getting up there so someone is buying them up.


 
 Back in Sept 2016,  http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/1980#post_12868503
 when I mentioned to H1 about trialling EL11 and EL33, that was the price and have remained constant until now. Only a couple of these Telefunken EL11 matching pairs showing on eBay now. They are buyout price. Don't worry about the mesh plates. These 'made in germany' EL11 looks like serious tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@HOWIE13 has given his impressions of the sonic signature. So Don, go ahead and grab yourself a pair and try it. You have my blessings.


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## connieflyer

Thank you for the blessings I will consider that. Christmas is coming maybe I'll buy myself a Christmas present, oh that's right I went to buy a coat ended up buying a vacuum cleaner instead I have to remember to think about what I'm buying from now on oh well it just sucks the vacuum that is


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## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I like what I'm hearing with c3g and 5998 on T1 too. Clarity, details and punch. It's still on my Elise now. I'm interested to hear EL11 and 5998 combo. @HOWIE13 did you try it?
> 
> Incidentally this is the pair I bought last night.


 
 On my 'to do' list for tomorrow, time permitting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What I particularly like about C3g tubes is their adaptability to all the genres I enjoy, and their rhythmic qualities.


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## UntilThen

@connieflyer a song for you.


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## UntilThen

What happen to the Christmas songs Pct? Alright one from me before I head back to work tomorrow. This is for all of you who will be driving home for Christmas.


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## DecentLevi

So guys, a little off topic from the recent discovery, but I have just thoroughly re-tested all my top miniature driver tube pairings with all my top power tubes, and made some very interesting discoveries. 
 
It started with getting a little carried away with combinations after just receiving the tubes labeled 6h23n (which is Cyrillic for 6n23p). There's many variants of this tube and this was a pair with a CCCP label and star on it, from the mid 80's from the Reflector plant. My first thought was how fantastically detailed and amazing these sound, but after extensive testing on various tracks and pairing them with all my top power tubes, I realised these on the Elise tend to be overtly analytical / bright, with a bass that's strange in that it sounds disjointed on every power tube combination with the exception of the quad EL3N as powers, which still seems slightly rolled off. As much as I wanted to like these, they leave me feeling somewhat fatigued and are extremely picky about power tube combos, which paired well only with the above. There are however many variants of this tube which was manufactured for 20 years, which you can see on this list, four variants are listed on his top list out of numerous miniature tubes. 
 
In all I tested all combinations tested together including:
Power tubes: GEC 6AS7GA, WE 421A, TS 5998, TS 7236, Mullard 6080, Bendix 6080 and quad EL3N
Driver tubes:  '85 Voshkod 6N23P, RCA 12AV7 and Tungsram E80CC
 
Here were my top four picks that soared well above all others:
 
 
*GEC 6AS7G + RCA 12AV7*
   Intrinsic perfection, grandiose soaring refinement, perfect balance of linearity, crispness and extension, transient response semi-soft. This pairing has been mentioned before, but amazingly out of the all pairings this came out on top again
*Quad EL3N + RCA 12AV7*
   Essentially tied with the above, yet slightly slower and softer dynamics, yet larger soundstage and improved imaging
*Tung Sol 5998 + Tungsram E80CC *
  Fast dynamics, crisp, refined, great soundstage and an absolute all time winner of organic, intricate sound, yet slightly bright
*GEC 6AS7G + Tungsram E80CC*
   Well balanced including perfect treble balance, lush & extended, semi-soft dynamics
 While my tests were done with both FLAC and native DSD, I'll admit it was the revolutionary format of DSD that wowed me over enough to come up with such lavish descriptions as above - yet the pairings still sound fantastic with 'good old' PCM as well. Also I owe @HOWIE13 a late "thank you" for recommending the Tungsram E80CC to me, as it's a very well resolving driver tube that has several great pairings.


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## DecentLevi

While I'm quite satisfied with the above, as we know it never ends for an OCD audiophile, LOL so I'm interested in the EL11/12 concept too. Howie would you mind to do something for us? Give a little more critical listen to your EL11/12 pairings with heavily rhythmic music such as EDM, pop or even rock? I'm looking to see how these perform with drums and basslines (transient response / PRaT) if you can get a foothold on their performance with these that would be great.
  
 Moreover would you please tell us if there is anything that would possibly seem slightly amiss / off kilter at all with these? Or is everything pretty much sonic perfection, with various combinations of the above? And how is the imaging / layering? Thanks!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> While I'm quite satisfied with the above, as we know it never ends for an OCD audiophile, LOL so I'm interested in the EL11/12 concept too. Howie would you mind to do something for us? Give a little more critical listen to your EL11/12 pairings with heavily rhythmic music such as EDM, pop or even rock? I'm looking to see how these perform with drums and basslines (transient response / PRaT) if you can get a foothold on their performance with these that would be great.
> 
> Moreover would you please tell us if there is anything that would possibly seem slightly amiss / off kilter at all with these? Or is everything pretty much sonic perfection, with various combinations of the above? And how is the imaging / layering? Thanks!


 
  
 Glad you like the E80CC.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Unfortunately, I don't have those genres you mention but as for anything 'amiss/off kilter'' C3g has more punchy rhythm and EL3N is warmer and has a wider, though not as deep sound-stage.
 Personally, I don't necessarily see these as negatives or positives-just different.
  
 In answer @UntilThen, after finding very good synergistic sound using EL11 drivers with EL12 powers yesterday, I tried the EL11 with 5998 this morning and the combo sounded very good too. By comparison, I would say the 5998/C3g combo is more rhythmic, punchy, but sounds less well integrated, and the 5998/EL3N combo is warmer, with slightly wider sound-stage, but less holographic and less pronounced and clear in the bass. Again, different rather than better or worse as for me these are all very good sounding tubes in Elise, depending on the music.
  
 Apologies if my terminology doesn't connect with everyone. It's best to try for yourselves, anyway -you may well not agree with me, especially with different genres of music. 
  
 I should have mentioned earlier that two of the EL11 tubes consistently have a low rumble on first switching on-it's not a hum-and it goes completely away within a minute. I think it's just the nature of the tubes.


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## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> What happen to the Christmas songs Pct? Alright one from me before I head back to work tomorrow. This is for all of you who will be driving home for Christmas.





 UT:  Very nice video and song. Thanks.
  
 As for my Christmas songs, most of my stash consists of songs sung by people everyone has heard a million times, and I already clutter up this thread enough. Will post if I find something I think is special))) Maybe I can find a Christmas Flying Saucer video 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Been having a lot of fun with my new found love for the C3G drivers. Using them right now with Bendix 6080 with great results.
  
 Also, really like Time for Us. You have great taste in music )))


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## connieflyer

@pctazhp I'll start wih an old favorite done new, it was very popular with the troops in 'Nam ...
  
 
  
  
 And this is just for me,without my wife for the first Christmas....
  
 
  
  
 But my favorite is...soft,quiet, respectful of those that have gone before and those present, we are but a wisp in time, we all be a memory someday, good to have traveled the road with you.......


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## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I like what I'm hearing with c3g and 5998 on T1 too. Clarity, details and punch. It's still on my Elise now. I'm interested to hear EL11 and 5998 combo. @HOWIE13 did you try it?
> 
> Incidentally this is the pair I bought last night.


 
  
 Hi UT...knew you couldn't resist lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Look forward to how you find them compared to the EL3N - methinks this is going to prove a very interesting exercise...especially as there are EL11s that have the_ oval_ plates of the 3N, and others (which appear to be of Telefunken's design) that have even larger, purely _round_ ones. The obviously extremely rare _mesh_ plates seem to be of the oval design, so I suspect there will be a fair range of differences between them all, even if only subtle...(just to confuse matters even further LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 With examples of them all, it looks like I've a good few Midnight sessions ahead!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...as have you @HOWIE13, I suspect!!
  


connieflyer said:


> So that is who won them.  I was looking at some on Ebay, but could not find any mention of mesh plates. And with the solid grey paint I could not see inside them.
> Let us know what you think of them.  Prices are getting up there so someone is buying them up.


 
  
 Hi cf. Given it appears only the Philips stable, eg. the Australian EL3NG and _certain_ old Valvo EL11 have the mesh plates (ie. with oval ones), I doubt there ever will be mention of them...I myself haven't yet managed to find _any_ mention of them at all _anywhere_ else...(surely there must be a Centenarian or two out there who has had hands-on experience of these tubes lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Have a horrible feeling the availability of _relatively_ cheap very good to strong EL11s will change pretty darned soon, alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


pctazhp said:


> UT:  Very nice video and song. Thanks.
> 
> As for my Christmas songs, most of my stash consists of songs sung by people everyone has heard a million times, and I already clutter up this thread enough. Will post if I find something I think is special))) Maybe I can find a Christmas Flying Saucer video
> 
> ...


 
  
 Really glad you're finding the C3g suits your *system* and* ears*, pct - when it does, I truly believe there are very few drivers on the planet that can match this wonderful tube...(as I must have said X thousand times before, so, sorry for the repetition lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


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## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp I'll start wih an old favorite done new, it was very popular with the troops in 'Nam ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





 CF:  Beautiful songs. I certainly remember the first one from my 'Nam days. On Christmas Eve, 1970, I saw the Bob Hope Christmas show at Freedom Hill in DaNang. My heart was in Arizona.
  
 The second one is very touching. I know this must be a difficult time for you, and I'm sure all of us have you in mind this Christmas season.
  
 Have always loved Mannheim Steamroller. I was lucky enough to see their Christmas show at the Scottsdale Civic Plaza many years ago.
  
 This is the best one I've been able to come up with for now. Rockefeller Center isn't exactly Bethlehem, but it is a pretty magical place at Christmas time.


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## pctazhp

This isn't Christmas, but was another favorite of the troops in Nam. Sorry if this sounds nationalistic, but I always think of our troops on Christmas and all of those and their families who have sacrificed so much for us.


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## louisxiawei

I'm afraid that after more than 20 hours' burning of the c3g, I still don't like the sound. Quite ear-piercing to be honest. Although there is no sharp sibilance in the treble, the high is not refined. I would say the image presentation is good indeed out of c3g.
  
 Maybe because my exasound e12 dac doesn't match up with c3g's sonic sounding. 
  
 Unfortunately, I will unplug c3gs and keep them collecting dust.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Back to EL3N now.


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## DecentLevi

Well the RCA 12AV7 would be sure to solve the piercing treble of the C3G's. After trying at least six pairs of miniature tubes including C3G, to me these are the undisputed leader of all drivers for the Elise, with unmatched neutrality and perfection in every aspect, even leaving my $100+ 6SN7's to collect dust. They are crisp, smooth, detailed, linear, multilayered, snappy, articulate, well extended and even somewhat front row which works with almost any genre, especially analogue era recordings. One can likely get the same sound out of an RCA 12AU7, 12AX7 or 12AZ7 which differ only by gain factor.
  
 Also I just found an amazing bargain for a great looking pair right now, for only 1/2 what I paid for mine:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/371810595823
  
 You would just need these adapters, which are also a great value because they enable you to try many 12A_7 driver tubes - for me I've only tried two types and loved both on the Elise


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## Spork67

An Aussie take on Christmas: 
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCNvZqpa-7Q


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## HOWIE13

louisxiawei said:


> I'm afraid that after more than 20 hours' burning of the c3g, I still don't like the sound. Quite ear-piercing to be honest. Although there is no sharp sibilance in the treble, the high is not refined. I would say the image presentation is good indeed out of c3g.
> 
> Maybe because my exasound e12 dac doesn't match up with c3g's sonic sounding.
> 
> ...


 
 To my ears the C3g gets it's great rhythmic qualities from its strong upper mid and treble response, combined with tight, clear bass. Depending on your music that can be good or not so good.
  
 They don't suit a Classical string quartet as the violins sound too vibrant and the balance with the viola and cello may be lost, the music losing integrity and realism.
  
 However, with lively choral music or larger scale Baroque instrumental and vocals they excel for me.
  
 I've just listened to my CD of Stokowski's recording of the Polovtsian Dances with them, paired with 4 pack -magnificent sound.


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## DecentLevi

Four pack - quad EL3N with EL11?


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## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Four pack - quad EL3N with EL11?


 
  By '4 pack' I just mean dual EL3N's per power socket, and in this case the drivers were Siemens C3g's, demonstrating to Louisxiawei just one example of the music I find C3g drivers work very well with.
 I'm giving my EL11/12's a rest today-don't want to wear them out.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Did you listen to the vid? The ending will sure wake you up for the day.
  
 EDIT: Oh sorry, just realised it's bedtime where you are-well don't listen until the morning otherwise you won't sleep with excitement!


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## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...knew you couldn't resist lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 CJ, I am so over tube rolling now. I have many favourite combos. I just find them different and interesting. There are no bad sounding tubes, not even the stock tubes... just variations. I see this being echoed by a few others too. Pct, CF, Mordy, Howie.
  
 Telefunken EL11 will be the last driver I'll buy. I know, I know, you're laughing now when I say last. I won't try all the variations of EL11. Not that die hard anymore. Might give the EL12 a go at a later stage but I'm in no hurry. 
  
 After Howie's review, I'm just wondering whether the Telefunken EL11 is anywhere close in sound to FDD20. That I am very curious to know. Howie has not heard the FDD20 so he can't tell me that but you can tell me that. So I'm awaiting your report. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  IMO FDD20 is the best sounding driver for my ears but using external power supply just kills it for me.
  
 Mrs. Xu Ling just send out the EL11 adapters. Will see how long it takes to get here.


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## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I've just listened to my CD of Stokowski's recording of the Polovtsian Dances with them, paired with 4 pack -magnificent sound.


 
 I've just listened to this with EL3N and 7236 (which is my standard combo these days) and Polovtsian Dances sounds great. I bet if I use light bulbs, it would have sounded magnificent too. 
  
 It's just a very stirring music. Love it.


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## UntilThen

CF, 3 beautiful videos songs from you. You are as popular as Banjo Paterson now... you know Banjo? The guy who wrote Waltzing Matilda. 
  
 You can listen to Waltzing Matilda at 6:41 of this video but you might as well listen to all the great Australian songs by the Seekers.
  
 Btw I'll be with you in spirit on Christmas Day. Thanks again for all the Mannheim Steamrollers LPs.


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## connieflyer

@untilthen I thank you and others for thèir salutations, it is really appreciated. My online "family" has given me a lot of support and has kept me away from staring down the abyss. I look forward to reading your thoughts and interested in the reportae of certain members. I really like the personal touchs that are interspersed with information. Ut,pct,h1 I can not thank you enough, you have indeed made a positive difference in my life and have helped me through this very trying time, nothing could prepare me for this, but your friendship has helped to smooth out the rough seas, THANK YOU all! Cf


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## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> I'm afraid that after more than 20 hours' burning of the c3g, I still don't like the sound. Quite ear-piercing to be honest. Although there is no sharp sibilance in the treble, the high is not refined. I would say the image presentation is good indeed out of c3g.
> 
> Maybe because my exasound e12 dac doesn't match up with c3g's sonic sounding.
> 
> ...


 

 You are not alone in your experience with the c3gs. And you certainly are not alone in owning tubes that collect dust. It's almost mandatory for participation on this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Here in Arizona even my dust collects dust 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I doubt the issue is with your DACs. Maybe more an issue of headphones. I think c3g as an Elise driver probably works better with Sennheiser HD800S than Beyer T1, but that's mainly speculation on my part.
  
 Happy EL3N listening


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## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> As for my Christmas songs, most of my stash consists of songs sung by people everyone has heard a million times




Here's something you haven't heard.


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/POuwCIqMfcI[/VIDEO]

_Maa on niin kaunis_

I went to a Christmas concert by these guys last night…




oskari said:


> [VIDEO]https://www.youtu.be/ZSHxIaJGQgM[/VIDEO]




… and these were the encores. I had nothing against that.


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## connieflyer

This is for @pctazhp he will remember I am sure... 
  
 and he should remember this from back then, although I went back further than him.


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## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> @untilthen I thank you and others for thèir salutations, it is really appreciated. My online "family" has given me a lot of support and has kept me away from staring down the abyss. I look forward to reading your thoughts and interested in the reportae of certain members. I really like the personal touchs that are interspersed with information. Ut,pct,h1 I can not thank you enough, you have indeed made a positive difference in my life and have helped me through this very trying time, nothing could prepare me for this, but your friendship has helped to smooth out the rough seas, THANK YOU all! Cf


 
  
 Hey cf, what can I say...except where else in forum land would there be such camaraderie lol? And that it may have helped you through those seas in some measure makes our time here feel all the more worthwhile...may 2017 continue in the same vein - I sincerely hope so...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  
 ps. Don't forget there will be a belated Christmas present, mon ami...even if it is into the New Year LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS, and KEEP WELL!!..CJ


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## connieflyer

You have indeed made things a little easier, and I know that it all helps to get back to the new normal.  Sometimes it may not seem significant but it helps to have things that make life worthwhile.  It all adds up, I know in my heart that were it not for the encouraging words that I have found here, it would have been a darker period in my life than it turned out to be.  Some day I hope to return the favor. Merry Christmas all.


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## hypnos1

OK guys........*THE "EAGLE" HAS LANDED!!*...(for want of a better word, as "Elise" is almost a misnomer lol...reason to follow!! 





).
  
 This is going to be very hard to keep away from the OTT, _excruciatingly_ _exuberant_ ramblings that I fear do nothing to endear us to the more "serious" audiophiles out there...but I shall try lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 I was actually helped in this by a strange (almost disconcerting!) calm when my package arrived this morning, and helped also by the need to allow plenty of time for temperatures to equalise (as confirmed by condensation forming on my "precious"!). However, at least I knew I wouldn't have to wait _too_ long afterwards - with the amp having already had extensive trial time on her and my decision to go straight in with my burned-in Valvo EL11 (mesh plates) and GEC powers...(sorry Lukasz, but the numbered TungSols and Sovteks you sent will have to wait a wee while!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 Anyway, after managing to keep the cans off my ears for about 20 mins, I gingerly (with trembling hands, mind you!) put the T1s to my ears and tried hard to recall the sound I was meant to be comparing with...turns out I needn't have worried, because what I heard was almost a totally different amp. This first impression threw me so much, I simply had to leave it there and then and go make me an _extra_ strong dose of caffeine, and let a good half hour pass before returning, in case my prolonged absence from Elise joy was clouding my judgment somewhat!
  
 And so resumed my testing with tracks I have used _*many*_ times these past 2 years and know intimately, with each one repeating that first "hit" between the eyes (as opposed to the _ears!_). The difference is greater than _any_ that has come from using different tubes, and has confirmed my belief that "better" tubes do indeed only take you so far - it is an amp's *circuit and components (incl. wire)* that bring a much greater leap in performance...even though I'm already convinced that these mesh-plated Valvos are bringing their own extra magic to the table, but can't be sure of course until much further down the road yet...
  
 OK, so just what is the "difference" I'm sprouting on about?..._"they"_ are in fact multiple. I have only managed to hear a few tracks so far, but already they are not just minor changes, and all for the better lol!...and for tasters, these below hopefully give some indication of what Maestro Henryk Feliks (and team) have been able to conjure up   :
  
 (But before more specific qualities, I must say that what hits you straight away is the much greater *dynamic* presentation, quite unlike the [already impressive!] original amp    :
  
 1.  "Behind the Lines" - Genesis.
  
 This track has always proved a "graveyard" for poor performing equipment, IMHO...the mix of massed, complex percussion and running base lines can so easily descend into mish-mashed chaos, with the added potential for treble harshness that can be almost unbearable with the likes of T1s - especially if a 'bright' DAC is downstream!! My 'MKI' Elise _almost_ caught me out this way - I certainly had to turn down the volume with this track. 'MKII' handles this tricky job with absolute aplomb... with *greater* _*instrument separation, cohesion and balance*_. I could turn up the volume without having to suffer - that treble no longer screamed at me..._*intense*_, yes, but not harsh...(perhaps helped by the  mesh plates?...time will tell...).
  
 And as with other tracks, there was_* increased detail *_throughout the FR, especially lower mids right through to lower treble...surprisingly so, in fact.
  
 2.  "Diamonds and Rust" - Joan Baez
  
 Joan's voice, which is truly sublime, can sometimes come over as a tad thin with lesser equipment. But here, the full tonal range of this wonderful singer can be heard, highlighting the deep emotional quality of her voice...sublime indeed! And this tonal range handling applies also to her acoustic guitar, adding immensely to the impact of this recording...just beautiful.
  
 3.  "Telegraph Road" - Dire Straits
  
 The intro to this track never fails to impress me, with its wonderful, slow build-up to what you know is something special to come. Here, there's an increased _*spatial*_*, airy *quality that almost leaves you suspended in space...even more so than before...and the increased tonality of Mark Knopfler's electric guitar matches the same extension in acoustic guitar, as mentioned previously.
 Greater tonal range is also noticed in bass notes, with increased definition, purpose and impact - but not in a 'basshead', boomy kind of way...a much purer, more subtle bass delivery - an extension to the MKI presentation, if you will...In addition, this new amp can track fast-rolling bass lines better than before...a _slight_ weakness some felt about the MKI. Once again, the extra details coming through at all stages of the frequency range are probably more down to its increased ability to keep all the instruments so clearly delineated/separate, without any hint of 'disengagement' from the whole...indeed, the sense of _*integration*_ is to a degree I have never experienced before, and totally *effortless*. The entire sound is just so _*natural*_ - a term that has hitherto not held much meaning for me...especially as so many concert hall experiences haven't exactly sounded "natural" to me LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(perhaps _*smooth, unforced, engaging*_ might be more appropriate terms...).
  
 4.  "Tightrope" - ELO
  
 Of nearly all ELO's numbers, I've always felt there was more to this number than I was previously hearing, even though it was still one of my favourites!...Well, its full potential came out in all its glory in this x100th listen, to a point that had me not knowing whether to smile or cry...I did BOTH!! At this point I knew beyond any doubt whatsoever that my euphoria was most definitely NOT due to easing of my withdrawal symptoms...this was for REAL lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Main vocal line was beautifully placed - not too close, not too distant, and backing vocals came in from positions that displayed a Master recording engineer at work...ie. in 3D space, without appearing detached from the whole in any way at all...masterly indeed...
  
 5.  "Hard-headed Woman" - Cat Stevens
  
 I find this number very good for assessing dynamic range handling (when not using Classical Music for the job, which will have to come later...). The early, light bars don't really prepare you for what comes later - the sudden transition to 'full on' sound can sometimes be too much to handle (pain-free, that is!), and I usually - once again - have to turn the volume down a tad beforehand. This time - once more - the amp delivered with full intensity (this time bass notes, as opposed to treble), but without shattering my eardrums...and with no loss of information - the opposite in fact.
  
 6.  And finally, I wanted to hear what happens with "simpler" fare - in the shape of The Fureys'  "When you were sweet sixteen", and Clannad's "Theme from Harry's Game". Once again, the tonal range of the Fureys' acoustic instruments was just spine-tingling, and the _*emotional*_ quality of the (over-sweet?!) lyrics and performance was enough to melt the hardest heart...(well it did mine anyway! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
 Clannad's ability to create the most haunting of sounds is exemplified in their track, even though overall a deceptively 'simple' number. This ethereal quality was reproduced here to a degree that had me spellbound...again even more so than ever before...(ooops, sorry - getting a bit OTT here lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 And so folks, hopefully this gives you just _some_ idea of what Feliks-Audio have managed to achieve with this (much!) revised Elise...as I mentioned earlier, this is truly almost a different amp entirely, and I simply cannot believe how they could make an already extremely good product _*so much*_ better still...needless to say, I am (once again!) in total awe of these guys in Poland. This is one of the best Christmas presents of my entire life....*THANKS A MILLION FELIKS-AUDIO!!!* ...and a VERY, MERRY CHRISTMAS...TO YOU ALL!....CHEERS!....CJ
  
 ps. Hey @UntilThen, you'll be glad to know I now very much doubt I'll even be bothering to listen to the $4000 Focal Utopias...this new amp is making my T1s sound like multi-K dollar babies already lol...so _*another*_ THANK YOU to F-A, for saving me from the debtor's prison lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 (Suppose I'd better go wash the dishes now...this diatribe took much longer than anticipated lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 ps. Did I mention the most exquisite handling of treble I have _ever_ experienced, with such intricate detail, extension and control that lifts the delivery _beyond_ the merely 'airy', "scintillating" etc. etc.?!!!


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again guys....silly me, forgot the all-important (mini) photo shoot...early onset dementia, I suspect alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







  :
  
          Those wondeful new Teflon sockets!!
  

  
  
 Especially for you @mordy...the vol control marker...(actually a lot smaller than originally - perhaps could indeed be a bit more prominent lol?)...
  

  
  
 Valvo Black Glass, mesh plate drivers ('40s); GEC CV2523 (6AS7G) powers
  

  
 ps. They've changed the gorgeous blue (as far as I'm concerned anyway lol!) led light...boo-hoo..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


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## UntilThen

Beautiful !!! The Valvo with the gold plated base. Work of art.


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## DecentLevi

Big congratulations on your Elise v2 H1! Maybe that's a slightly better name than Elise SE, as that usually refers to single-ended.
  
 Well, looks like 16 of the EL11 to 6SN7 adapters were ordered from Ms. XuLing (4 of them being mine), so looks like four of us are going to have a very merry Christmas with a new EL11/12 setup... or a very grumpy Christmas depending on the results - Howie we will hold you accountable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I also think Howie ordered the RCA 12AV7 yesterday and hopefully he can confirm its' greatness, so any others may experience what I've discovered with them.


----------



## Andrew Rieger

Any tube recommendations for someone who prefers a more crisp, detail oriented sound?


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## DecentLevi

Quote:


andrew rieger said:


> Any tube recommendations for someone who prefers a more crisp, detail oriented sound?


 
 My top pick for this after trying at least 100 combinations including flagship tubes would most assuredly be GEC 6080 + RCA 12AV7, followed by RCA 6080 + RCA 12AV7. These two pairings, especially the first one, give a sound that is dynamic, crisp & semi-bright). You can also try Bendix 6080 + RCA 12AV7 for a slightly different sound flavor. The 12AV7's require a pair of adapters @ $10 each, and several variants are still available cheaply. See post here for more


----------



## Andrew Rieger

decentlevi said:


> Quote:
> My top pick for this after trying at least 100 combinations including flagship tubes would most assuredly be GEC 6080 + RCA 12AV7, followed by RCA 6080 + RCA 12AV7. These two pairings, especially the first one, give a sound that is dynamic, crisp & semi-bright). You can also try Bendix 6080 + RCA 12AV7 for a slightly different sound flavor. The 12AV7's require a pair of adapters @ $10 each, and several variants are still available cheaply. See post here for more


 

 Thanks a bunch


----------



## DecentLevi

Well H1 that was a superb write-up and I must say your upgraded Elise sounds sure to be nothing short of *REVOLUTIONARY *and for me at least, you had me at 'effortless'. This is a quality that IMO, the original Elise was never able to achieve no matter which rare tubes I threw at it. And now to hear the new Elise has increased dynamics, purity and is effortless leads me to ponder how the new Elise holds up against other current flagship amps such as the Cavalli Liquid Tungsten, Zana Deux super edition and Woo Audio WA22. Perhaps you'll get a chance to directly A/B the upgraded Elise to these other flagships? I would not be surprised if they are extremely comparable.
  
 And just maybe this concept could end up being a 'game changer' for the headphone amp industry - a new era where quality of internal components can make per say... medium size amps perform equally to that of those monster sized ones. Anyway @hypnos1 I presume it's safe to say that this is your end-game amp?
  


untilthen said:


> CJ, thanks for the photos and summary of the upgrades. Looks good.
> 
> Wonder if there's any re-tuning done?
> 
> I hope this will translate into an Elise with more snap attack, even faster transient response, bite and transparency. Although I cannot envisage if that would be a better outcome as Elise in it's current state, is perfecto for me.


 

 H1 this is the other thing I'm still wondering about and apparently I'm not alone. For me, the _slight shortcoming_ in the 'effortless' department, the slight lack of snap attack, bite and transparency, and the _nearly _holographic sound are what still makes other flagship amps superior to the original Elise... so would you PLEASE do us a favor and give a listen to a couple of your favorite drum-heavy songs to tell us how the drums sound in terms of snappyness and bite / transient response?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Beautiful !!! The Valvo with the gold plated base. Work of art.


 
  
 Thanks UT...they sure ended up looking much better than I imagined lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...and as for their sound - in the new amp at least! - surpassing anything I've heard to date.
  
 And after a good few more of my "Golden Oldies", every single track is reinforcing my previous comments...to an even _*greater*_ degree! So I thought it was time to try something a bit different and (relatively!) more up-to-date, viz. "Another Country" - Cassandra Wilson, a hi-res. track on HDTracks Sampler 2013....well, when fed such a signal, this amp's dynamics really come into their own - a depth, richness and fullness that is quite startling...the _kind_ of 'speaker sound I recently mentioned I was contemplating the Focal Utopias for, but now am glimpsing here to a degree that I'm sure will indeed satisfy me without having to mortgage the missus LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...so you can sleep easy, mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...talking of which, time for zzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
  
 G'night, y'all...


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Well H1 that was a superb write-up and I must say your upgraded Elise sounds sure to be nothing short of *REVOLUTIONARY *and for me at least, you had me at 'effortless'. This is a quality that IMO, the original Elise was never able to achieve no matter which rare tubes I threw at it. And now to hear the new Elise has increased dynamics, purity and is effortless leads me to ponder how the new Elise holds up against other current flagship amps such as the Cavalli Liquid Tungsten, Zana Deux super edition and Woo Audio WA22. Perhaps you'll get a chance to directly A/B the upgraded Elise to these other flagships? I would not be surprised if they are extremely comparable.
> 
> And just maybe this concept could end up being a 'game changer' for the headphone amp industry - a new era where quality of internal components can make per say... medium size amps perform equally to that of those monster sized ones. Anyway @hypnos1 I presume it's safe to say that this is your end-game amp?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Will do, DL...but _*tomorrow*_...must (try to!) get some sleep now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


----------



## louisxiawei

decentlevi said:


> Well H1 that was a superb write-up and I must say your upgraded Elise sounds sure to be nothing short of *REVOLUTIONARY *and for me at least, you had me at 'effortless'. This is a quality that IMO, the original Elise was never able to achieve no matter which rare tubes I threw at it. And now to hear the new Elise has increased dynamics, purity and is effortless leads me to ponder how the new Elise holds up against other current flagship amps such as the Cavalli Liquid Tungsten, Zana Deux super edition and Woo Audio WA22. Perhaps you'll get a chance to directly A/B the upgraded Elise to these other flagships? I would not be surprised if they are extremely comparable.


 
 I've compared WA22 (stock tube) borrowed from my friend to the current Elise (Mullard 6080 + EL3N).
  
 Can confirm that the Elise has a solid win on T1. Period.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Congrats on receiving the upgraded Elise! Now the $64,000.00 question: Well, two questions:
  
 What is the price?
  
 You mentioned about an upgrade program for previous Elise owners - can you give details?


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1 Great work H1.
  
 Looks like an upgrade will be coming soon for me.
 I'm pleased those EL11's are suiting the new amp too.
 Looking forward to today's assessments!


----------



## hypnos1

louisxiawei said:


> I've compared WA22 (stock tube) borrowed from my friend to the current Elise (Mullard 6080 + EL3N).
> 
> Can confirm that the Elise has a solid win on T1. Period.


 
  
 That's really great news louis....praise indeed lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Congrats on receiving the upgraded Elise! Now the $64,000.00 question: Well, two questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy...those are difficult ones still, alas...I haven't yet had any indication of possible price, but they are in the process of deciding just what 2017 lineup offers to make. Will keep y'all informed the minute I get some indication. But as you might well gather from my brief update below, I personally would say *forget the price...BUY IT LOL!!!...*it is _*that*_ good...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for upgrade program, it was someone else who mentioned that...I myself haven't heard any details on such, I'm afraid.
  
 And re. the tiny vol. control marker... for me anyway, even with just a very low light level I can see it clearly...can't really understand how/why lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


howie13 said:


> @hypnos1 Great work H1.
> 
> Looks like an upgrade will be coming soon for me.
> I'm pleased those EL11's are suiting the new amp too.
> Looking forward to today's assessments!


 
  
 Thanks H13...was it you who mentioned upgrade program at all?...wondering what your "upgrade coming soon" might be lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
  
 Anyway.....time for a *BRIEF* *UPDATE*...
  
But before I do, I feel I must remind @DecentLevi and everyone that the MKI Elise is built to a price point, and as such performs *outstandingly*...as per the headfonics review, it is undoubtedly "the best sub-$999 tube amp...ever"...*period!! *And so please remember this when reading my comments on the new amp...(or any made by anyone about the original! 





).
  
 Next on the trial ladder was Mike Oldfield's CD Collection "Elements". These are extremely well recorded/engineered tracks, that are a good showcase for assessing pretty well all aspects of reproduction. And when followed by Loreena McKennitt's "Marco Polo" and "Night Ride across the Caucasus" totally nailed _*any and every*_ _slight_ niggle anyone may have had re. MKI...and to a degree that still has me in a confused state of smile/shock/awe...(trying so hard not to be too OTT lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I honestly didn't think I could be any more impressed than I was yesterday, but here I am...in total amazement at what F-A have managed to achieve, without the need for *major* alteration to case/chassis/transformer - to tell the truth, I can't begin to imagine how they would be able to improve upon this sound without entering stratospheric price territory!...viz. PRaT that just has you knowing (and _feeling_) that everything is being delivered with such integrity, precision and control as to be simply "right". And with a smoothness of presentation that remains immaculate as you turn the volume knob to dangerous levels..._*seamlessly smooth!*_...in fact everything is delivered with wonderful _*fluidity*_, without the slightest hint of "roll-off" at any point of the sound spectrum. Increased _*tonal range/harmonics *_bring out elements of instrument character that just weren't there before...highlighted especially in Loreena's mix of East/West "exotic" instruments...along with an uncanny ability to handle perfectly the "unusual"  upper registers of some, along with a wide variety of drum notes - again with wonderful control, impact, and attack. Notes that should stop dead, _*stop*_ dead...those that should decay, *do* so, and hang beautifully, not intrusively.
  
 And all these things happen within a soundstage that is neither too wide, nor too narrow/confined, and _truly _*"holographic"* lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So all in all folks, I have to repeat that this new amp is NOT a mere step or two up - it is in a different league entirely, and must surely be worth whatever figure F-A come up with...which although undoubtedly not cheap will, as with the MKI, be exceptional value-for-money...watch this space!!
  
 Must go...Cheers for now...CJ


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
 Another brilliant review, thanks again H1. And thanks to F-A too!
  
 I've already weighed my Elise and later today am going to find out the return postage costs to Poland  LOL. 
  
 Your EL11's are a real class act too. Hope you might manage to try the stock tubes sometime as that will help comparisons as well. No rush, of course-I can fully understand that you are wallowing in gorgeous sound just now and wouldn't want to change anything.


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1. The new Elise certainly seems impressive. I think equally impressive is your ability to convey your experience with it in such a way as to enable (at least me) to envision in my mind the actual experience you are describing. Your review is the work of a true word master.
  
 It will be very interesting to see where F-A goes from here. It will be great if they offer an upgrade path. But given the degree of improvements you describe the new Elise must be quite different in design. And there are not many companies that would offer an upgrade in such a situation. Maybe we are lucky the Utopia was introduced. The new Elise will probably be less than $4,000 and we can fully justify our new Elise purchase by the fact that it is less than we would have spent for the Utopia


----------



## connieflyer

I don't believe they would offer an upgrade,the logistics would be to expensive. The new chassis is slightly larger, and the labor to replace all the parts would be more than to purchase a new amp. This new amp is not going to be cheap, so add in two shipping to the cost as well, extended shipping times and risk, perfect storm to lose business.  If they do offer the new upgraded Elise, Plus, you are working on a used piece of gear, with some parts not replaced, could add up to more warranty's costs and what to cover, if a problem arises how to determine if it was a new part or an old part to warranty, at some point if you want the upgrade you just have t o bite the bullet and pay the man. I will purchase one and sell off the old one to recoup some of the cost.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I don't believe they would offer an upgrade,the logistics would be to expensive. The new chassis is slightly larger, and the labor to replace all the parts would be more than to purchase a new amp. This new amp is not going to be cheap, so add in two shipping to the cost as well, extended shipping times and risk, perfect storm to lose business.  If they do offer the new upgraded Elise, Plus, you are working on a used piece of gear, with some parts not replaced, could add up to more warranty's costs and what to cover, if a problem arises how to determine if it was a new part or an old part to warranty, at some point if you want the upgrade you just have t o bite the bullet and pay the man. I will purchase one and sell off the old one to recoup some of the cost.


 

 All valid points. Upgrade path does seem pretty unrealistic.
  
 I just wonder how the market value of Elise V1 will hold up with all of us trying to dump it at the same time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I planned to sell my Little Dot IV when I bought Elise, but it's still collecting an impressive amount of Arizona dust. Maybe I'll call city hall and see if Scottsdale wants to set up an antique headphone amp museum. At least I could deduct my contributions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wouldn't tell them that neither my LD or Elise is really an antique


----------



## connieflyer

I really doubt that if the upgrade price is where I think it will be, will cause glut on the market.  Also the time it takes to produce and ship a new amp will spread out the number available, I doubt people would sell off the old amp before getting the new one tested.  If they have a few hundred in stock before the release, I could see some problem, but since they don't have the ability to mass produce, should not be a problem. This will probably not be a minor upgrade, nor will it be inexpensive if they do indeed release it. I think they have to determine what their product line up will be before they go into production.  They may offer the upgrade as a limited edition of a certain number of units, and then stop making them.  If it is indeed a popular upgrade, and have a large amount of orders, I can see where they would drop the old Elise in favor of the new one.Lots of possible scenarios for them to decide on before this goes forward, in my estimation.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I really doubt that if the upgrade price is where I think it will be, will cause glut on the market.  Also the time it takes to produce and ship a new amp will spread out the number available, I doubt people would sell off the old amp before getting the new one tested.  If they have a few hundred in stock before the release, I could see some problem, but since they don't have the ability to mass produce, should not be a problem. This will probably not be a minor upgrade, nor will it be inexpensive if they do indeed release it. I think they have to determine what their product line up will be before they go into production.  They may offer the upgrade as a limited edition of a certain number of units, and then stop making them.  If it is indeed a popular upgrade, and have a large amount of orders, I can see where they would drop the old Elise in favor of the new one.Lots of possible scenarios for them to decide on before this goes forward, in my estimation.


 

 Right now I'm listening to c3g/Bendix 6080. If F-A has improved on this, then someone there should be named Time Magazine's Person of the Year next year


----------



## louisxiawei

connieflyer said:


> I don't believe they would offer an upgrade,the logistics would be to expensive. The new chassis is slightly larger, and the labor to replace all the parts would be more than to purchase a new amp. This new amp is not going to be cheap, so add in two shipping to the cost as well, extended shipping times and risk, perfect storm to lose business.  If they do offer the new upgraded Elise, Plus, you are working on a used piece of gear, with some parts not replaced, could add up to more warranty's costs and what to cover, if a problem arises how to determine if it was a new part or an old part to warranty, at some point if you want the upgrade you just have t o bite the bullet and pay the man. I will purchase one and sell off the old one to recoup some of the cost.


 
 Also agreed.
  
 However, Lukasz did mention the upgrade program when we communicated through email. Don't want to snapshot the private email but this upgrade program was truly in dear Lukasz's mind. 
  
 So finger crossed.


----------



## pctazhp

louisxiawei said:


> Also agreed.
> 
> However, Lukasz did mention the upgrade program when we communicated through email. Don't want to snapshot the private email but this upgrade program was truly in dear Lukasz's mind.
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> Another brilliant review, thanks again H1. And thanks to F-A too!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H13...I think I've covered most bases now - with these gorgeous mesh-plated Valvos at least!...apart from a bit of pure piano; cello; violin; choir; organ; Symphony Orchestra...usw!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (just not enough hours in the day lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). And I'm afraid you're bang on re. trying the stock tubes..."wallowing" doesn't even cover it!!!...but of course I must..._soooon!!_
  
 I used UPS (via Parcel2Go.com) for my own return...was very impressed with service and cost, especially as I have a drop-off outlet just a mile down the road!
  
 So, mon ami, are they going to adapt your original amp, or is it an _exchange_?...CHEERS! and GOOD LUCK!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1. The new Elise certainly seems impressive. I think equally impressive is your ability to convey your experience with it in such a way as to enable (at least me) to envision in my mind the actual experience you are describing. Your review is the work of a true word master.
> 
> It will be very interesting to see where F-A goes from here. It will be great if they offer an upgrade path. But given the degree of improvements you describe the new Elise must be quite different in design. And there are not many companies that would offer an upgrade in such a situation. Maybe we are lucky the Utopia was introduced. The new Elise will probably be less than $4,000 and we can fully justify our new Elise purchase by the fact that it is less than we would have spent for the Utopia


 
  
 Thanks pct....you're too kind. And am glad my ramblings didn't give you indigestion lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(I had initially worried about whether I'd be able to do the amp justice, but inspiration simply jumped out at me the second I put the T1s to my ears...however, it did have me wondering just where to start LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Yes, there are indeed quite prominent changes to the circuit design, so I can't see an "adaptation" job being at all easy/feasible...but hopefully @HOWIE13 might have some answers for us? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm quite sure the new amp's cost will be nowhere near that $4000 figure...making the Utopia saving very hefty indeed, I suspect! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...much to my (and my wallet's!) relief lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


pctazhp said:


> Right now I'm listening to c3g/Bendix 6080. If F-A has improved on this, then someone there should be named Time Magazine's Person of the Year next year


 
  
 All I can say is, pct - from what has been achieved here, it should actually be Time Magazine's Person of the *CENTURY*, lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


louisxiawei said:


> Also agreed.
> 
> However, Lukasz did mention the upgrade program when we communicated through email. Don't want to snapshot the private email but this upgrade program was truly in dear Lukasz's mind.
> 
> So finger crossed.


 
  
 Now you have me _really_ intrigued, louis!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## DecentLevi

As of late I just CAN'T stop listening to the GEC 6080 + Tungsram E80CC combo on Elise. It's sweet, well extended, detailed / crisp and slightly on the bright side, making it a fantastic pairing with the HD-650 anyway. One of those quirks of the hobby when you have noted specific combos that are 'superior' in some ways but just can't get yourself to listen to them, for want of another flavor. The Tungsram E80CC provides a similar flavor to the RCA 12AV7, but somewhat more fluidic / organic and a touch brighter. These both work with a 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter.
  
 Just to imagine how much more fantastic the upgraded Elise may sound seems to boggle the mind. Hypnos you already had my support at 'effortless' yesterday, but now to add the adjectives transparent, liquid, and "person of the century" takes up the suspense to a whole new level. I had another question but will wait until you've got time (well it was about the dynamics with drums actually...), but for now would you mind to just briefly chime in this: does upgraded Elise seem to like the same tube pairings as the old one, and do the pairings seem to give the same sound signature? IE, are the same tube combos still preferable, and do they still give you the same signature you had expected from the original version?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> As of late I just CAN'T stop listening to the GEC 6080 + Tungsram E80CC combo on Elise. It's sweet, well extended, detailed / crisp and slightly on the bright side, making it a fantastic pairing with the HD-650 anyway. One of those quirks of the hobby when you have noted specific combos that are 'superior' in some ways but just can't get yourself to listen to them, for want of another flavor. The Tungsram E80CC provides a similar flavor to the RCA 12AV7, but somewhat more fluidic / organic and a touch brighter. These both work with a 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter.
> 
> Just to imagine how much more fantastic the upgraded Elise may sound seems to boggle the mind. Hypnos you already had my support at 'effortless' yesterday, but now to add the adjectives transparent, liquid, and "person of the century" takes up the suspense to a whole new level. I had another question but will wait until you've got time (well it was about the dynamics with drums actually...), but for now would you mind to just briefly chime in this:* does upgraded Elise seem to like the same tube pairings as the old one, and do the pairings seem to give the same sound signature? IE, are the same tube combos still preferable, and do they still give you the same signature you had expected from the original version?*


 
  
 I was thinking that too, particularly as the two amps are so different in sound. If the answer is yes, that's fine, If the answer is no we may have to roll all over again.
  
 Not so bad I suppose, after all, that's the fun.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I was thinking that too, particularly as the two amps are so different in sound. If the answer is yes, that's fine, If the answer is no we may have to roll all over again.
> 
> *Not so bad I suppose, after all, that's the fun. *


 
 Fun??? This is fun: https://www.thedungeons.com/blackpool/en/downloads/schools/2013/torture-in-the-middle-ages.pdf
  
 Start rolling all over again - now that's TORTURE


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Fun??? This is fun: https://www.thedungeons.com/blackpool/en/downloads/schools/2013/torture-in-the-middle-ages.pdf
> 
> Start rolling all over again - now that's TORTURE


 
  
 TORTURE INDEED, pct!!!
  
 And so @DecentLevi and @HOWIE13 I sincerely hope the _basic _differences between tubes will remain, but all _enhanced _by the superb _*neutrality*_ and _*balance*_ of the new amp. The only _possible_ tricky situation that I can think of would be with tubes that are already perhaps slightly on the "overblown" side...ie. with powerful dynamics that are somewhat uneven in their delivery, such as the Melz 6H8C or, Heaven forbid, _some_ VT231s (but this also depends a great deal on the rest of the system, of course!!).
  
 I cannot see why the new amp's wonderfully full dynamics and extended FR handling should present any cause for concern re. which tubes to use - what it _*shall*_ do is show any particular tube's _*true*_ *potential*, which is a different matter entirely, of course!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, before trying out the stock tubes (and bashing my ears with even more drums lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







), I put together what I hope is a more easily-digested summary of the amp's character and abilities in "soundbite" form...but which still only tells _part_ of the story lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   :
  
*"To call the upgraded Elise's signature 'neutral' does not really do it full justice - it does in fact reproduce an extended and highly detailed Frequency Range with uncanny uniformity, supreme balance and impeccable control/timing...all within a dynamic presentation that is bold, yet subtle when required, and with clear, transparent fluidity...somehow managing to achieve that rare mix of both 'analytical' and 'musical' elements".*
  
 Hope that meets with your approval, P...or should you (and I!!) get to the bathroom FAST lol?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...
  
 Better go now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Re. the drums subject, after last night's Midnight session, with more Loreena McKennitt; Alan Parsons Project - "Turn of a Friendly Card"; Genesis - "Duke", and Supertramp - "Breakfast in America (2010 Remaster)", I can in fact confirm that - as with other elements within the FR - said drums are handled with wonderful _*precision/control; timing/speed; attack/impact*_...what more could one want/ask for lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...
  
 pps. Lukasz and all at F-A are also "super happy" with the results of the new amp, and send us their best wishes and gratitude for our support of their small(ish) family-run concern...(and Dad Feliks is _really_ pleased at the praise for his efforts...he is truly a WIZARD, as far as I'm concerned! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)....BFN...


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA just to let you know that we have surfers here in MIchigan also
http://fox17online.com/2016/12/20/winter-surfing-in-grand-haven-youre-crazy/  
  Grand Haven is on the west shore of Michigan on Lake Michigan


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> @DavidA
> just to let you know that we have surfers here in MIchigan also
> http://fox17online.com/2016/12/20/winter-surfing-in-grand-haven-youre-crazy/
> Grand Haven is on the west shore of Michigan on Lake Michigan




Seems like this is the accurate part: “You’re crazy!”


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> @DavidA just to let you know that we have surfers here in MIchigan also
> http://fox17online.com/2016/12/20/winter-surfing-in-grand-haven-youre-crazy/
> Grand Haven is on the west shore of Michigan on Lake Michigan


 
 That is nuts, I only went surfing because of the girls in bikini's or sunning on the beach, don't think I'll see any there, lol


----------



## Spork67

Probably the best known break in Tassie:
  
 http://www.redbull.com/au/en/surfing/stories/1331801659964/sessions-shipstern-bluff
  
 No. I've never surfed it. I'm silly - but I ain't crazy!


----------



## UntilThen

For the last 2 pages I keep reading about the* Elise Mk2    and   bite.  *
  
 So this is what's come to my mind.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *Right now I'm listening to c3g/Bendix 6080*. If F-A has improved on this, then someone there should be named Time Magazine's Person of the Year next year


 
  
 Pct, I was wondering when you're getting to this combo. If I had the HD800S, this is the combo I'll roll with. Period.


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1 I can't quote you because that would mean quoting several pages of your recent posts on Elise Mk2. Suffice to say, you're back to your best at showcasing Elise to the world. 
  
 The original Elise sounds great, with a much faster transient response than most other tube amp in the $1000 range. It sounds much more lively and agile compared to some of the competitors I've heard. This is achieved without sacrificing the warm and lush musical tonality of tube amps. This is not an easy feat for an amp build to price. FA did a great job indeed.
  
 A few pages back, I mentioned that if the upgraded Elise produce an even faster transient response, more snap attack, more bite and transparency, more control and tightness in the bass and sparkling treble without sounding harsh and a mid-range to die for .... then..... it would be a bad day for current Elise owners..... because they will feel compel to upgrade. From your descriptions of the upgraded Elise, it looks like FA has just achieved that.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1 I can't quote you because that would mean quoting several pages of your recent posts on Elise Mk2. Suffice to say, you're back to your best at showcasing Elise to the world.
> 
> The original Elise sounds great, with a much faster transient response than most other tube amp in the $1000 range. It sounds much more lively and agile compared to some of the competitors I've heard. This is achieved without sacrificing the warm and lush musical tonality of tube amps. This is not an easy feat for an amp build to price. FA did a great job indeed.
> 
> A few pages back, I mentioned that if the upgraded Elise produce an even faster transient response, more snap attack, more bite and transparency, more control and tightness in the bass and sparkling treble without sounding harsh and a mid-range to die for .... then..... it would be a bad day for current Elise owners..... because they will feel compel to upgrade. From your descriptions of the upgraded Elise, it looks like FA has just achieved that.


 
  
 Well UT, my friend, you've just summarised my pages in one sentence...CHEAPSKATE!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....good one! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(now the 'bad day' is down to YOU lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)...CHEERS!!...
  
 (Love those pooches, by the way! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## connieflyer

The story of getting old........


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Pct, I was wondering when you're getting to this combo. If I had the HD800S, this is the combo I'll roll with. Period.


 

 I think you are on to something. They refuse to go back in the drawer


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1. I'm announcing that you have just been named my own personal Person of the Year. Sorry, but my Person of the Century remains Shania Twain


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp try that combo with this the steel guitar is quite good


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp try that combo with this the steel guitar is quite good





 Really special. Thanks CF. I think the steel guitar is such an underrated instrument. I first heard it when Wayne Newton and his brother appeared locally here on our KPHO Channel 5 TV station back in the 50s.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> The story of getting old........


 
 CF:  Very impactful. I really like Mickey.
  
 I often have trouble thinking of anything good about getting old. But I remember my father died at age 35 when I was 5. I've been blessed with 36 years that his heart attack robbed him of.


----------



## pctazhp

OK. Now that I know I don't need Utopia, I suddenly have new-found wealth of $4000.
  
 I saw this DAC mentioned on the HD800S thread: https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac3-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter
  
 So as long as Elise 2 comes in under $1,800 I'm in good shape.
  
 Just kidding. Just kidding.


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp Sue and I went to see Wayne Newton in an outdoor concert years ago and enjoy the show very much.  I agree with your  comment on the steel guitar, with a great performer like Jerry Douglas it is magic.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Douglas He is an excellent addition to Alison Krauss's group.

 Mickey Newberry was a great story teller, composer and singer.
 And of course now that your have that extra $4000.00 just sitting around, have I got a deal for you!


----------



## connieflyer

Another


----------



## connieflyer

Since it is Christmas Carol time how about Alison Krauss and Yo Yo Ma


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1. I'm announcing that you have just been named my own personal Person of the Year. Sorry, but my Person of the Century remains Shania Twain


 
  
 Gee, pct...you've made my day...CHEERS! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..._however_, I just might end up accusing you of _sexism_ here lol...know a good lawyer?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(Shania Twainia!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Gee, pct...you've made my day...CHEERS!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 H1. I knew one good lawyer about 20 years ago. But he attended the annual Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, and hasn't been heard from since.


----------



## connieflyer

All the years I have listened to Camille Saint-Saens The Swan from the Carnival of the Animals I never had heard a vocal done. This one is by a group named Origen kind of pleasing  I started listening to this as a child, could not sleep my grandfather would get out his RCA 78 rpm disk and play this and it put me right to sleep.


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp  I'm listening to the above video posted by @connieflyer  'Origen' Dance of the Clouds, with Valvo c3g/s and Bendix 6080 on my HE-560 and for a moment I thought it was Elise Mk3 !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This is see-ri-a-ss-leeee good. Everything gels together and I'm in musical heaven.


----------



## angpsi

Commencing break–in period. Two things are evident right out of the box: one, that the HD600s needed it (her); and two, that an analytical sound can also be effortless (remember, I'm coming from solid-state amps). At this point everything sounds rather held back, albeit very promising. I wonder what will happen as the tubes open up their sound.
  
 Music–wise, this is what I'm listening to right now. It's a really interesting album, with a great mix of natural and engineered ingredients (and here's a favorable review plus a demo piece).
  
 Looking forward to exploring _our_ Elise's limits,
 Merry Christmas,
 Angelos.


----------



## angpsi

Two more pieces of source material:

Max Richter, Disconnect OST
Alicia Keys, Here


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> @pctazhp  I'm listening to the above video posted by @connieflyer  'Origen' Dance of the Clouds, with Valvo c3g/s and Bendix 6080 on my HE-560 and for a moment I thought it was Elise Mk3 !!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 As I am a traditional one-headphone man, I can only imagine your bliss. But with my one headphone I have my own bliss with this combo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Very nice picture, BTW)))


----------



## pctazhp

@angpsi. Looks like you are in for a very nice Christmas. Your pictures are great. Enjoy and please keep us informed as you develop your relationship with Miss Elise


----------



## DavidA

@pctazhp, i have enough headphones for you me and a few others 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I just got a TH-X00, it decent but I still prefer my TH-600, better bass and highs.  I hopefully will get to audition a Elise next week so I'll post back here later.  Just spent a week with my friends Liquid Glass and some $$$$ tubes, its as good as I remember it sounding last year when I was in Japan when I got to use another friends Liquid Glass but I've decided to pass on it, fund will be used to get a HD-800S, a mid level Stax, some wine and a new driver and putter for my GF.


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> @pctazhp, i have enough headphones for you me and a few others
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 So funny. I was actually thinking of you when I posted that )))
  
 Seems like you have been spending time with good company recently, and have your priorities in good shape. It will be fun to hear what you think of Elise if you get your chance to listen to it. But I will be especially interested in your long term impression of HD800S. It has certainly served me well.


----------



## hypnos1

Great news @angpsi...glad she arrived safe and sound.
  
 And yes, you've a good bit of "exploring" ahead...should be fun lol!
  
 "Held back"?...still *very* early days, of course...things will change quite dramatically in due course, to be sure! Please do keep us informed - a wonderful Christmas present indeed for you...as was my own new addition LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....CHEERS!...


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> H1. I knew one good lawyer about 20 years ago. But he attended the annual Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, and hasn't been heard from since.


 
  
 And I'm sure he's not the only one to go AWOL afterwards, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!, and G'night...


----------



## DecentLevi

So H1, would you be able to make any vague comparisons of the sound of the new Elise to any other top amps? I was wondering if maybe you've tried any summit-fi tube amps before, and would be able to mention anything on how they compare, at least by memory? Otherwise IIRC, you'll be taking it to a meet in the UK later next year and Howie will be there too?
  
 So has anybody received their EL11 or EL12's yet? I ordered mine all on the same day including the adapters (two sources in Germany and one in HK), but shipping still says none of them have moved yet. Seems global shipping my be slowed down because of Christmas, and even any customs issues in China


----------



## DecentLevi

Also has the new Elise been suiting you with any other headphones than T1?


----------



## DecentLevi

@angpsi which driver tubes are those in your Elise? Also IIRC, burn-in for a new Elise takes somewhere around 300-500 hours, I'd say that as long as your tubes aren't running too hot, it's OK to leave it on overnight. I'd recommend burning it in with music playing though (preferably rhythmic), and my experience has been amp burn-in makes a bigger difference than tube burn-in. It's not necessary to have headphones plugged in to burn an amp in, but leaving them can also burn your 'cans in... for me I often just put my headphones in a drawer in their carrying case to tone down the ambient noise a bit


----------



## connieflyer

Since it is a little slow (yes I am included in that) to make @pctazhp feel the warmth of the Christmas season I offer this to him,, This has melted the snow around the house, hope it lasts


----------



## DavidA

@connieflyer, another great blast from the past


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks @DavidA if nothing else I have a past and I used to be a blast!


----------



## UntilThen

It's Christmas Eve. I'll share this song.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> So has anybody received their EL11 or EL12's yet? I ordered mine all on the same day including the adapters (two sources in Germany and one in HK), but shipping still says none of them have moved yet. Seems global shipping my be slowed down because of Christmas, and even any customs issues in China


 
 My adapters are in South China Seas and my EL11 tubes are enroute via the Middle East. I'm sure they will get to me in due time.


----------



## UntilThen

I was reading the news and it says this is one of the 10 worst Christmas song. I wonder why.


----------



## DavidA

Hi @UntilThen, really enjoyed that movie years ago when my son was still young, he couldn't stop laughing at some of the jokes and I had to cover his eyes and ears so he could calm down, lol.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> Hi @UntilThen, really enjoyed that movie years ago when my son was still young, he couldn't stop laughing at some of the jokes and I had to cover his eyes and ears so he could calm down, lol.


 
 He's more advance than me. This is the 1st time I've watch this clip.


----------



## Spork67

I could watch that for hours. I couldn't listen to it, but I could watch it...


----------



## UntilThen

Spork I'll let you watch my mangoes.


----------



## UntilThen

Beautiful and poignant. It's coming to the year's close. Whether you're 75, 65, 55, 45 ,35, 25 or 15, it's time to reflect on the year's gone by. I hope the music is still motivating you forward in head-fi and not just the gear.


----------



## DavidA

One of my all time holiday songs:


----------



## angpsi

decentlevi said:


> @angpsi
> which driver tubes are those in your Elise? Also IIRC, burn-in for a new Elise takes somewhere around 300-500 hours, I'd say that as long as your tubes aren't running too hot, it's OK to leave it on overnight. I'd recommend burning it in with music playing though (preferably rhythmic), and my experience has been amp burn-in makes a bigger difference than tube burn-in. It's not necessary to have headphones plugged in to burn an amp in, but leaving them can also burn your 'cans in... for me I often just put my headphones in a drawer in their carrying case to tone down the ambient noise a bit



These are the 'upgrade' Psvane drivers, which we talked about some weeks ago in this thread. Thanks for the advice, I already beat you to it! The Elise is set up at my office, so I left it on overnight playing the original "Jazz at the Pawnshop" (Arne Domnerus, 1977) via Audirvana/Tidal on repeat. And yes, the Senns were on! Being set at the office meant being set at a conveniently low ambient temperature because the heating was off; hopefully that's enough to save me from damaging the tubes!  My only problem was the withdrawal symptoms I had to suffer for leaving the lot behind; in all honesty I'd gladly keep my ears attached to the system during the whole of the break-in period!


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Great news @angpsi
> ...glad she arrived safe and sound.
> 
> And yes, you've a good bit of "exploring" ahead...should be fun lol!
> ...




Cheers to you too @hypnos1! As I wrote to @DecentLevi, indeed I am suffering from withdrawal syndrome very early on! Can't wait to see what happens as the set opens up! I've been lurking here silently for the whole period since my last post, but I kept from joining in just to keep my cool until the actual Elise arrived! I'll be sure to keep you guys posted; besides it looks like I will be buying in to some alternative choices of tubes eventually, so I'll take your advice very gladly!


----------



## UntilThen

Congrats @angpsi  on your new Elise. The Psvane drivers are a refreshing change as most new owners will post pictures of the Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue.
  
 I recall Elise when new sounded a bit constricted and metallic and 'not open up' in sound. Things changes quite rapidly after 48 hours and will continue to change well into the 150 hours.
  
 I have a few songs that I play a lot when Elise was new. Dreams by Fleetwood Mac, Hold On by Holly Cole amongst the few.


----------



## UntilThen

They are tube rolling with a vengence on the Darkvoice 336se tube rolling thread.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Congrats @angpsi  on your new Elise. The Psvane drivers are a refreshing change as most new owners will post pictures of the Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue.
> 
> I recall Elise when new sounded a bit constricted and metallic and 'not open up' in sound. Things changes quite rapidly after 48 hours and will continue to change well into the 150 hours.
> 
> I have a few songs that I play a lot when Elise was new. Dreams by Fleetwood Mac, Hold On by Holly Cole amongst the few.




 Yeah, ok; just had to go back to the office and pay [her] a visit / check up on [her]. Is there any way I can skip *all* social activities until next year? Looks like she's growing up to steal me away from my family! Perhaps she's a mistress?
  
 Thanks @UntilThen for your warm wishes. I wouldn't know how to compare the Psvane with other tubes since I have none to refer to. Nevertheless, I'll do my best to describe what I'm hearing. Please consider that I'll be using my speakers experience as a reference. Perhaps—once I recover to "trustworthy" status as far as my family's finance is concerned—I'll be looking to Stavros' inventory for some comparisons.
  
 After leaving her on for almost 24 hours, there's definitely more separation and atmosphere: bass is bass (including the always seductive plucks), drum kicks move air, space and depth are evident, and—as for the two most promising qualities I can discern at the moment—actual keyboard strokes are now audible even with synths, and the whole thing still sounds just 'there', instead of 'in your face'. As I said earlier, I could listen to that all day and night!
  
 My references for comparison at this point are "Press Enter" by Romain Collin et al., with today's addition of "v2.0" by GoGoPenguin. Both albums are characterized with 'live' studio performances, utilizing at the same time lots of engineered sound (albeit, not at all compressed—as is unfortunately the case with the Alicia Keys record). Both of them already get beautifully rendered by the Elise / HiFime Sabre USB 9018 DAC (—cheap but potent? I wonder...), which leads me to think that jazz of all sorts is going to be the butter on Elise's toast!
  
 On a different note, Lukasz promised me the Psvanes would "provide even more stage details"; and indeed I believe I am getting exactly that.


----------



## henriks

Any link for the psvanes on eBay?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Thanks @UntilThen for your warm wishes. I wouldn't know how to compare the Psvane with other tubes since I have none to refer to. Nevertheless, I'll do my best to describe what I'm hearing. Please consider that I'll be using my speakers experience as a reference. Perhaps—once I recover to "trustworthy" status as far as my family's finance is concerned—I'll be looking to Stavros' inventory for some comparisons.
> 
> After leaving her on for almost 24 hours, there's definitely more separation and atmosphere: bass is bass (including the always seductive plucks), drum kicks move air, space and depth are evident, and—as for the two most promising qualities I can discern at the moment—actual keyboard strokes are now audible even with synths, and the whole thing still sounds just 'there', instead of 'in your face'. As I said earlier, I could listen to that all day and night!


 
 Well described apsi. I've just watched a Tai Chi Kungfu movie and I can relate to drum kicks move air and keyboard strokes are now audible. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It looks like the upgraded Psvane drivers with the Svetlana 6H13C power tubes are appealing to you. In which case, don't be in a hurry to grab other tubes. Spend a few weeks at least with Elise and those tubes and you'll get to know her sonic attributes, plus it's evolving and maturing tone as Elise settles in with more burn in.
  
 Believe me, all of us here have listen to music with Elise as a tube amp, all day and night, for many months, with no end in sight. Until @hypnos1  tempts us with version 2 now. It's dangerous to lurk in these threads. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ps.. I did enjoy GoGoPenguin. Nice upbeat tune. Jazz is not the only butter on Elise toast. Pick any genre and you'll be happy.


----------



## UntilThen

henriks said:


> Any link for the psvanes on eBay?


 
 I believe this is it.
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Matched-Pair-PSVANE-UK-Design-Vacuum-Tubes-UK-6SN7-replace-CV181-/121674034660?hash=item1c54566de4:g:zpsAAOSwstxVdv41


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Since it is a little slow (yes I am included in that) to make @pctazhp feel the warmth of the Christmas season I offer this to him,, This has melted the snow around the house, hope it lasts





 WOW. I've never seen this one before. Is there any question as to why she is my Person of the Century???
  
 I woke up and listened to this. Then I looked outside and saw there was no snow here in Scottsdale. So it definitely works 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 SIZZLING HOT


----------



## pctazhp

Thanks to everyone for the wonderful Christmas music. Even though I'm pretty much a hopeless heathen, this touches my heart and so I will use it to wish Merry Christmas to all the amazing people on this thread:


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Thanks to everyone for the wonderful Christmas music. Even though I'm pretty much a hopeless heathen, this touches my heart and so I will use it to wish Merry Christmas to all the amazing people on this thread:


 
 Aren't you a bit early? It's not Christmas for you yet. It will be for me in 20mins time.


----------



## Frederick Rea

decentlevi said:


> @angpsi which driver tubes are those in your Elise? Also IIRC, burn-in for a new Elise takes somewhere around 300-500 hours, I'd say that as long as your tubes aren't running too hot, it's *OK to leave it on overnight.* I'd recommend burning it in with music playing though (preferably rhythmic), and my experience has been amp burn-in makes a bigger difference than tube burn-in.* It's not necessary to have headphones plugged in to burn an amp in*, but leaving them can also burn your 'cans in... for me I often just put my headphones in a drawer in their carrying case to tone down the ambient noise a bit


 
 Pay attention that ONLY OTL amps are capable of working on without headphones or speakers. Amp's with output transformer s (not valves) must have an Headphone or speaker. In this case of Elise as is an OTL, it is OK.
 Merry Christmas to all


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Aren't you a bit early? It's not Christmas for you yet. It will be for me in 20mins time.


 

 I'm an international kind of guy))) Merry Christmas )))


----------



## UntilThen

frederick rea said:


> Pay attention that ONLY OTL amps are capable of working on without headphones or speakers. Amp's with output transformer s (not valves) must have an Headphone or speaker. In this case of Elise as is an OTL, it is OK.
> Merry Christmas to all


 
 It's OK. They will find out when there's fireworks.


----------



## UntilThen

Merry Christmas ALL.


----------



## DavidA

To All:


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Congrats @angpsi  on your new Elise. The Psvane drivers are a refreshing change as most new owners will post pictures of the Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue.
> 
> I recall Elise when new sounded a bit constricted and metallic and 'not open up' in sound. Things changes quite rapidly after 48 hours and will continue to change well into the 150 hours.
> 
> I have a few songs that I play a lot when Elise was new. Dreams by Fleetwood Mac, Hold On by Holly Cole amongst the few.





 UT:  Speaking of Holly Cole, if you have been having trouble picking out a Christmas present for me, this record playing machine will be perfect. I won't be upset that it arrives late. There are some places in the world that follow the old Julian calendar for religious celebration days where they don't celebrate Christmas until January 7, so you'll be fine


----------



## connieflyer

Well @UntilThen now that Christmas has arrived for you, a very Merry Christmas and continued good fortune to you and the family.  And @pctazhp that video of Shania Twain is one I know you needed. It works better than Geritol, let the new kids figure out what that is!  Merry Christmas and much luck and good fortune in the your future. Wishing you Peace and Happiness.  Don


----------



## DavidA

Hi CF, I wish you could send some of the cold you have in Michigan here to Hawaii, I have 5 friends over for some wine, champagne and food and we had to turn on the AC here since it was getting a bit stuffy.  The current food and drinks:


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA you are soooooo baaaadddd.!  White Christmas here, but temps have warmed to mid 30's so not so bad. Mele Kalikimaka and good forune and health in the new year, be careful, we need our hero's to live long and prosper!


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys.
  
 First of all may I wish everyone a *VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS *and all the best for 2017...




  
 And as @UntilThen says, whatever our age, let the _*music*_ be the driving force in this joyous hobby of ours...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but the _*gear*_ certainly comes a close second lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Above all, of course, is the pure *enjoyment*...not only of the music itself, but in the company of great people on our Elise threads....I SALUTE YOU ALL....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@DecentLevi - to my great disappointment (and shame lol!!) I haven't yet been able to hear any hi-end tube HP amps to compare, I'm afraid - but will surely remedy that in April!...(if I dare leave my gear unattended, that is!! On second thoughts, I shall have to hope a fellow member will post guard in the meantime, or else it will have to wait 'til CanJam (London) in July LOL!).
  
 Speaking of said CanJam, *Lukasz has informed me that F-A are going to be attending*...WONDERFUL SURPRISE!!...it'll be great to meet up with him in person, along (hopefully!) with other members of the Feliks clan....CAN'T WAIT!...
  
 As for other cans, the 650s are still sitting in the wings awaiting (patiently!) their turn...for me, hurried swapping of gear brings only limited value with regard to proper, reliable assessment. I want all my observations to be as worthwhile and accurate as possible - or _*try*_ at least lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now then UT...once again I can blame you for further twisting of the knife, given your recent mention of  my name lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...each new day continues to have me wondering how on Earth F-A have managed to create an amp that _*looks*_ like an Elise, but _*performs*_ like something totally different : viz. after my head being blown off by a hi-res recording of Moussorgsky's "Great Gate of Kiev" from 'Pictures at an Exhibition', and "Night on a Bald Mountain", I wanted to confirm the new amp's ability with regard to fare that is a bit simpler...or should I say "delicate" and haunting - cue Loreena McKennit's "Beneath a Phrygian Sky" and "Kecharitomene" from 'An Ancient Muse'......
  
 Well, all I can say is I _*never*_ thought these T1s were capable of such magical performance - I now realise just how much has been missing from their potential...(I now have no desire *whatsoever* to blow a pile of hard-earned money on those Focal Utopias).
  
 I'm firmly convinced that this is in no small measure due to the T1's "semi-open" design. Coupled with the new amp's presentation, it really does feel as though I'm hearing a sound that combines the best features of the "closed" design with those of the "open" - a bass that seems to hit/hang better, rather than "disappear" slightly through the earpads, with mids and treble also "hanging" longer, but still retaining the wonderful "air" of the open design...._*the best of both worlds indeed!!*_...I suspect this amp may well also address what _*some*_ find with the HD800 - ie. the occasional _apparent_ feeling that the soundstage can sometimes be almost _too _wide, with concomitant slight dilution of sound/focus...(not _my_ personal observations as I haven't heard them properly, but those of _some_ other users!).
  
 Perhaps those who can make it to MK here in April might want to become familiar with the 2 Loreena tracks mentioned (as well as others, if poss!!), as I shall definitely be using these for demo at the meet    :
  

  

  
 Once again.....A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!...


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again folks....how did "Mummer's Dance" get there lol?!  Ah well, never mind...still an excellent track! Please find "Kech..." on youtube...CHEERS!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit...aahh...a compilation job - never mind lol!!


----------



## connieflyer

I wonder what would happen if they put this on MTV, if the kids would think?  Probably not understand it, as the words are very clear and precise. NIce rendition. Quote: 





davida said:


> To All:


----------



## connieflyer

So long as we are on Loreena


----------



## DavidA

Keep the music flowing, been using most of songs posted as our background music, thanks everyone
 next round of food and drinks:


----------



## angpsi

Maybe it's because it's Christmas eve, but the Elise was well received at home. Wife says she's beautiful, daughter enjoyed listening on my Senns! As for me, I just couldn't leave her alone at the office...
  


 Two things are evident now: one, that the Benchmark DAC 1 is indeed a quality ingredient, albeit the HiFime DAC is quite impressive by comparison; and two, that my ATCs also like the Elise _very_ much! Imagine that now!
  
 Merry Christmas everyone, and my warmest regards from Athens, Greece (still a good 6 hours 'till Christmas)!
  
 P.S. 


untilthen said:


> It's OK. They will find out when there's fireworks.


 

@UntilThen, @Frederick Rea, nothing's actually blown up so far, but the fireworks are indeed making their way by the hour!


----------



## connieflyer

Okay one last one, before I have to dash off to find an exotic dinner for tomorrow night's repast, in the frozen food department of course!..this is one of my favorites, great symmetry and clarity.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Okay one last one, before I have to dash off to find an exotic dinner for tomorrow night's repast, in the frozen food department of course!..this is one of my favorites, great symmetry and clarity.





 CF:  I'm very happy to hear that the frozen food department where you shop has great symmetry and clarity. You are indeed blessed. BTW, the video is also very nice. Thanks for it )))


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Two things are evident now: one, that the Benchmark DAC 1 is indeed a quality ingredient, albeit the HiFime DAC is quite impressive by comparison; and two, that my ATCs also like the Elise _very_ much! Imagine that now!
> 
> Merry Christmas everyone, and my warmest regards from Athens, Greece (still a good 6 hours 'till Christmas)!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Really important to have the family's blessing, angpsi...as well as your own lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...you're well on the way...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CONGRATS!...CJ


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Well @UntilThen now that Christmas has arrived for you, a very Merry Christmas and continued good fortune to you and the family.  And @pctazhp that video of Shania Twain is one I know you needed. It works better than Geritol, let the new kids figure out what that is!  Merry Christmas and much luck and good fortune in the your future. Wishing you Peace and Happiness.  Don


 
 Merry Christmas Don and to Conner. I said that I'll be with you in spirit on Christmas Day and I did think about you as I finished my glass of red wine after the clock strike midnight. Next thing I know it's morning now. 
  
 Cheers my friend. Warmest greetings from me and my family. Yeah they know about Don.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> UT:  Speaking of Holly Cole, if you have been having trouble picking out a Christmas present for me, this record playing machine will be perfect. I won't be upset that it arrives late. There are some places in the world that follow the old Julian calendar for religious celebration days where they don't celebrate Christmas until January 7, so you'll be fine




 Pct, that's a cool turntable and song from Holly Cole. I'll buy one for you after I've bought one for myself first. Alas, the 1st pay cheque came on Thursday and the wife took it all.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> Hi CF, I wish you could send some of the cold you have in Michigan here to Hawaii, I have 5 friends over for some wine, champagne and food and we had to turn on the AC here since it was getting a bit stuffy.  The current food and drinks:


 
 Here David, hope this will make it cooler for you.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> First of all may I wish everyone a *VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS *and all the best for 2017...
> 
> ...


 
 Well then mon ami, another Christmas again with you on this thread. It has been a great 2015, 2016. Merry Christmas to you CJ and Rita. You may drink a glass of champagne on my behalf as you listen to Elise Mk2 with T1. Wish I was there...


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen that picture is not cool, that will melt the snow around here!  Bring them here,@DavidA can get ice from the store, we need hhheeeeaaaatttt.!
 Thanks for the cheer and I will hoist a few liquid berry's on your behalf tonight.  All the best, Don


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen that picture is not cool, that will melt the snow around here!  Bring them here,@DavidA can get ice from the store, we need hhheeeeaaaatttt.!
 Thanks for the cheer and I will hoist a few liquid berry's on your behalf tonight.  All the best, Don


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Two things are evident now: one, that the Benchmark DAC 1 is indeed a quality ingredient, albeit the HiFime DAC is quite impressive by comparison; and two, that my ATCs also like the Elise _very_ much! Imagine that now!
> 
> Merry Christmas everyone, and my warmest regards from Athens, Greece (still a good 6 hours 'till Christmas)!


 
 Wise move getting Elise home for Christmas. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nice gear. Is that a Krell CD player?
  
 I'm afraid you're getting hooked on her now and there's no turning back. Btw you're a great addition to the team here.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen that picture is not cool, that will melt the snow around here!  Bring them here,@DavidA can get ice from the store, we need hhheeeeaaaatttt.!
> Thanks for the cheer and I will hoist a few liquid berry's on your behalf tonight.  All the best, Don


 
 Did I give David more heat instead of cold? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well it's time to put on the Christmas tube. 6 pack of EL3Ns. Thanks for hoisting the berry, gin, rum, vodka, whisky for me.


----------



## connieflyer

No problem I have a dilemma now...............


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> No problem I have a dilemma now...............


 
 My dilemma is the 6 pack still sounds great. That's beyond logic.


----------



## Spork67

Christmas morning here, waiting for the kids and sister-in-laws to arrive.
 Merry Christmas to you lovely people, and a safe and prosperous new year.
 Our son and his GF spent last evening decorating the house: Gingerbread house that is.


----------



## Oskari

Not that many hours, and 44 unread posts…


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Not that many hours, and 44 unread posts…


 
 Would have been more had these guys not started drinking so early. Until they sober up I'll entertain you with Jimmy Barnes.


----------



## Jozurr

davida said:


> @pctazhp, i have enough headphones for you me and a few others
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Would be interested in your thoughts on the LG vs Elise if possible using the same tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Cavalli Liquid Glass is $3499. Elise is $699.
  
 Strange comparison don't you think? 
  
 Graphically this is how it looks.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Would have been more had these guys not started drinking so early. Until they sober up I'll entertain you with Jimmy Barnes.




LOL. Thanks. I think I'll have a dram now.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> LOL. Thanks. I think I'll have a dram now.


 
 Ok maybe it's Finnish but what exactly is a dram??? 
  
 Ahhhh is this what it is?


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Ok maybe it's Finnish but what exactly is a dram???




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dram:

4. A small quantity of a drink, especially an alcoholic drink.

:rolleyes:

In other words: whisky.


----------



## DavidA

jozurr said:


> Would be interested in your thoughts on the LG vs Elise if possible using the same tubes


 
 Sorry but the Liquid Glass and the tubes are on their way back to Japan since my friend had to leave for work and couldn't find a later flight. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
@UntilThen, the other thing is the Liquid Glass is a hybrid, not an OTL.  But i will get to hear the Elise on Tuesday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, hope its close to the Liquid Glass, then I know I made the right decision to pass on it.


----------



## Oskari

My favourite song of the season.


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/Gt1qCgO_UH8[/VIDEO]



[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/5eoBakde1yA[/VIDEO]

_En etsi valtaa, loistoa_


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> Sorry but the Liquid Glass and the tubes are on their way back to Japan since my friend had to leave for work and couldn't find a later flight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 If Elise is close to the Liquid Glass, I'll need many dram !!! I await your verdict on whether I'll be an alcoholic.


----------



## DavidA

@Oskari, the second video has some really nice reflected sounds from the subway tunnel, nice.


----------



## pctazhp

Geeez!!! I watch a couple of episodes of Westworld on HBO and then the Cardinals-Seahawks game and miss all the fun. The police just left my home. They're looking for a missing cab.
  
 Merry Christmas everyone )))
  
 It's been raining cats and dogs here!!!


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> @Oskari, the second video has some really nice reflected sounds from the subway tunnel, nice.


 
 For a moment I thought he was influenced by Banjo and Mandolin.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Ahhhh is this what it is?




Yesh.


----------



## UntilThen

@Oskari  16 years !!!
  
 Mine beat yours by 2 years but it's less than half now.


----------



## connieflyer

A couple of more shots and you will need a new bottle. I may join you on that. Got a half bottle of GLendidiche to use up tonite, need to start the new year off with a new bottle. Oh wait it is only Christmas, not New Years, oh well,out of ice cream may as well have scotch


----------



## Oskari

davida said:


> @Oskari
> , the second video has some really nice reflected sounds from the subway tunnel, nice.




That particular metro station tunnel has wonderful acoustics.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> A couple of more shots and you will need a new bottle. I may join you on that. Got a half bottle of *GLendidiche* to use up tonite, need to start the new year off with a new bottle. Oh wait it is only Christmas, not New Years, oh well,out of ice cream may as well have scotch


 
 Hasn't anyone ever heard of Boone's Farm Strawberry Wine????
  
 Or even better:


----------



## connieflyer

I used to get the apple version longer than I care to remember ago. Have not heard that name in a coon's age.  Good one!


----------



## louisxiawei

Merry Christmas gents! Thanks for introducing me to the Elise wonderland. Wish you all the best for the coming new year.
  
 Joy to be continued.


----------



## connieflyer

And a Merry Christmas to you and hope you enjoy Elise as much as the rest of us


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> Hasn't anyone ever heard of Boone's Farm Strawberry Wine????


 
 I remember getting drunk and sick on it back in high school, not good memories


----------



## DecentLevi

A few holiday songs that are certified to sound good on the Elise. (well actually all good songs do on this fine amp)
  
Wham! - Last Christmas (DJ Vini remix)  
  
Sparki Dee - XMAShup 2015 - Christmas - Drum n Bass - UK Hardcore DJ Mix 
  
TLC - Sleigh Ride (1993) RIP Lisa 'Lefteye' Lopes
 
  
 Now let's wish Santa's elves speed along those EL12's


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Having said that I am happy with a four tube set-up, I also must say that there are exceptions to every rule, and a six tube set-up can be very nice, as I just discovered, thanks to richdytch and Howie13 as well.
  




  
 They reported very good results with 6BL7/6SN7 as power tubes and Ken-Rad VT231 (6SN7) as drivers.
  
 I don't have the Ken Rads, and tried my beloved EL3N as drivers with the GE 6BX7/ Russian re-issue 6SN7GTB power tubes - good, but not great. I think richdytch mentioned a special synergy of these power tubes with 6SN7 drivers. Decided to try my unsung 6SN7 heroes that IMHO are excellent, but I have never seen them reviewed as such (or at all): 1960's RCA 6SN7GTB tubes with a unique heater wire arrangement - a thin horizontal wire above the top mica.
  




  
 Anyhow, IMHO this six tube combination is, in addition to being a bargain basement champion, a *top tier tube combination with a rich, full and detailed sound.  *
 In comparison with the EL3N/GEC 6AS7 it just gives up ever so little in speed, energy, bass punch and treble sizzle. Truly enjoyable......
  
 An easy and cool load on the Elise at 5.4A total.
  
 Thanks to richdytch for finding this gem as well as Howie13.
  
 Hypnos1, the camera doesn't lie - I promise to dust off the Elise!


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy I've been through all these combinations before. Probably the first to roll it with that double adapter. You have too. Just look back at the other thread and you'll see all the postings by us and the pictures. It's not new. It's ok for everyone to declare their favourites. Not everyone is alike.
  
 As for me, I much prefer a simple setup of 4 tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Every once in a while you hear something new and exciting. The band's name is funny but the music is great. Thanks to @angpsi  for bringing the Penguins to me.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Nice gear. Is that a Krell CD player?



Yes, it is; it's a Krell MD20 transport. Vintage stuff, but very cool!




untilthen said:


> I'm afraid you're getting hooked on her now and there's no turning back. Btw you're a great addition to the team here.



Very probably! Thanks for your warm words, looking forward to exchanging educated opinions with all of you guys in this wonderful thread! Besides, you were the ones to introduce me to the Elise; and it was your genuine enthusiasm that got me breaking the bank for it!


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Every once in a while you hear something new and exciting. The band's name is funny but the music is great. Thanks to @angpsi
> for bringing the Penguins to me.



My thoughts exactly! Glad to be of service!


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> No problem I have a dilemma now...............



Laughing my wits out! Well phrased @connieflyer!


----------



## HOWIE13

Merry Christmas to everyone here and on the other threads too!
  
 We have people coming for Christmas lunch but all I'm thinking about is relaxing this evening with Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

Merry Christmas Howie. A question for you. Where is Santa's homeland.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Merry Christmas Howie. A question for you. Where is Santa's homeland.


 
  
 HAHA Tricky question. Lapland/Finland? No, _*can't*_ be that easy.


----------



## Oskari

Surely, it _can_.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Surely, it _can_.


 
 I _*knew* _you would help me out on this question. LOL.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Yes, it is; it's a *Krell* MD20 transport. Vintage stuff, but very cool!
> Very probably! Thanks for your warm words, looking forward to exchanging educated opinions with all of you guys in this wonderful thread! Besides, you were the ones to introduce me to the Elise; and it was your genuine enthusiasm that got me breaking the bank for it!


 
 Cool indeed


----------



## hypnos1

davida said:


> Sorry but the Liquid Glass and the tubes are on their way back to Japan since my friend had to leave for work and couldn't find a later flight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmmm, DA....methinks a much fairer comparison would be vs Elise MKII (still to be named...and priced lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), but if you can only now hear MKI, it could well be quite a while yet before that can happen...alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...so hopefully there might just be one at our local meet here in April for me and others to compare. If not, there should be plenty of hi-end stuff to try at CanJam (London) in July...which I personally hadn't planned on attending, but *with the F-A guys exhibiting there*, my mind has made a sudden about-turn LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 Now then, with all this talk of alcoholic indulgence - and that includes you @UntilThen and @Oskari and @HOWIE13... what I want to know is... *what has happened to my Hennessy XO lol?!*...never mind the firewater you keep mentioning!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...(oops, reckon I'v unleashed William Wallace AND Bonnie Prince Charlie _this_ time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - although I'm sure the latter wouldn't really mind the French Connection lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS EVERYONE!!...CJ


----------



## DavidA

Hi @hypnos1, don't have any Hennessy XO but i do have a great substitute:

 Since I don't care for it my friend Bradley has it in Hilo and you are more than welcome to have a glass or two, or three.


----------



## hypnos1

davida said:


> Hi @hypnos1, don't have any Hennessy XO but i do have a great substitute:
> 
> Since I don't care for it my friend Bradley has it in Hilo and you are more than welcome to have a glass or two, or three.


 
  
 Hi DA...that sure looks like the Remy Louis XIII at 13,300 Euros a bottle? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...if so, I could just be tempted to jump on the first flight out to Hawaii lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and see just what they've done to the Maui Regency Hyatt's "Swan Court" restaurant - now for breakfasts only?...YIKES!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 ps. I take it your friend Bradley is a multi-millionaire LOL?...a good one to have..._sometimes__!!_...


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> HAHA Tricky question. Lapland/Finland? No, _*can't*_ be that easy.


 
 Now that is debatable. Me thinks he lives in North Pol  ... and 
  
 and has been delivering Elise for the last 2 years to needy head-fiers.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> CanJam (London) in July...which I personally hadn't planned on attending, but *with the F-A guys exhibiting there*, my mind has made a sudden about-turn LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'll attempt to answer the last question first. I don't know about the other 2 shoe shiners or wizards but I'm still perfecting the art of turning water into wine.
  
 CanJam in London? That's too far. I think they should do a CanJam in Sydney.
  
 Now a question for you. What happens to Britain after Brexit?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Yes, it is; it's a Krell MD20 transport. Vintage stuff, but very cool!


 
 If you have a vintage Krell transport, you are probably not as young as Rick Astley in your avatar photo.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> If you have a vintage Krell transport, you are probably not as young as Rick Astley in your avatar photo.


 well, I did appreciate it enough to buy it second-hand! As for "young", I don't know how you would call a 44yo architect, but I do remember young Rick Astley when he was a sensation!

Then again , my avatar is young Anthony Michael Hall from (1985) "The Breakfast Club" - which I'd consider the absolute tell-all about my age group!


----------



## UntilThen

Ah ha, I love Breakfast Club.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Ah ha, I love Breakfast Club.





 I eat at The Breakfast Club:
  
 http://breakfastclub.us/


----------



## connieflyer

There is a program called Wreaths across America that I gave to.  Went out to the National Cemetery where Sue is and I will be and it was quite a sight.


----------



## UntilThen

Day after Christmas !


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I'll attempt to answer the last question first. I don't know about the other 2 shoe shiners or wizards but *I'm still perfecting the art of turning water into wine.*
> 
> CanJam in London? That's too far. I think they should do a CanJam in Sydney.
> 
> Now a question for you. What happens to Britain after Brexit?


 
  
 Ah, UT...always suspected you were headed for demi-god status lol!...(or something along those lines!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)....and as such, I'm sure your call for a Sydney CanJam would be answered..._pronto!!!_




 As for post-Brexit...not being a Professor in Politics or Economics, afraid I haven't a clue...(and neither do _they_, I suspect LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). However, it is quite evident that in the short term, it is providing fertile ground for various entities to stick the proverbial knife in the back...Why am I not surprised - how _*dare*_ we challenge the EU juggernaut?!!! But I'm quite sure that out of all this, either the EU will be shaken sufficiently to instigate much needed reform, _or_ there's a good chance the whole pack of cards will come crashing down...the "Ides of March" lol? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but who really knows?...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(know of a nice Pacific Island going cheap, mon ami?!!)..
  


connieflyer said:


> There is a program called Wreaths across America that I gave to.  Went out to the National Cemetery where Sue is and I will be and it was quite a sight.


 
  
 Hey cf....that looks so _peaceful_, my friend...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...1950? - the year of my own birth lol...a good year! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Best wishes to you...and looking forward to many more contributions from you in the New Year...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 CJ


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> As for post-Brexit...not being a Professor in Politics or Economics, afraid I haven't a clue...(and neither do _they_, I suspect LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You need to answer like the politicians !
  
 What happen to Britain after Brexit? 
  
 There will be no Brussels !!!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I eat at The Breakfast Club:
> 
> http://breakfastclub.us/


 
 No you didn't. Not without me.


----------



## UntilThen

Where's @doofalb  ?  
  
 doofalb !!! how's Elise.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> Where's @doofalb  ?
> 
> doofalb !!! how's Elise.


 
 He's bringing over his Elise on Tuesday


----------



## doofalb

untilthen said:


> Where's @doofalb  ?
> 
> doofalb !!! how's Elise.


 
 doofalb!? Present!
  
 He beat me to it!
  
 Elise is good, her and I are having a lot of fun. Although she's not getting enough one-on-one time. But she' going on a trip, visiting uncle @DavidA. She's probably going to charm him, since that's what she does best.
  
 Merry Christmas to you all!


----------



## UntilThen

doofalb said:


> doofalb!? Present!
> 
> He beat me to it!
> 
> ...


 
 Good to hear !
  
 I forgot Hawaii is a small island where everyone knows each other by name. Alright I'll await David's assessment. Get some hula hula dancing girls to help out and a Hawaiian cocktail.
  
 That's me.


----------



## UntilThen

RIP George. Thanks for the music.


----------



## Oskari

Re: Careless Whisper

I will never forget this song.

And the video has a Grumman Mallard flown by Chalk's.


----------



## UntilThen

Do tell why the song's special for you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I had no idea what you were talking about - Grumman Mallard flown by Chalk's but now I do. It's an amphibious plane.


----------



## UntilThen

It will be a day remembering George Michael.
  
 OK something's not right. I post George and I get Richard Marx. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Remedied !


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Do tell why the song's special for you. :wink_face:




Ancient history, formative years, that sort of things.


----------



## DavidA

Really nice tunes there, will use for back ground music tonight, busy cooking right now.
  
 RIP George M.


----------



## UntilThen

Freedom, freeeedom, freeeeedoooom. Sing it baby !


----------



## UntilThen

Something more soulful?


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Ancient history, formative years, that sort of things.


 
 Ah ha 1st girlfriend or girl crush? Those are golden years then.


----------



## UntilThen

And the incredible duet with Elton.


----------



## Spork67

Golden Years you say?
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKUy6ygUgP0


----------



## doofalb

UntilT said:
			
		

> *hen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> That's me.


 
 Serious?


----------



## doofalb

That's me


----------



## Spork67

Get sick of the Christmas crowds dropping in on me at my local break.


----------



## UntilThen

Hahaha you guys have talent. Wouldn't it be cool to surf with those waves?


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp  and @connieflyer  wake up. Uno Supremo is knocking on your door.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi folks.
  
 For any here who may be tempted by the _multi-tubes as powers_ setup, @DecentLevi has given an extended post on this over at the "other" thread, with a stark warning that I highly recommend you take notice of..._*immediately!*_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!, CJ


----------



## UntilThen

Hallelujah when they see the light. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been campaigning against hedious setups for a long time. It's the sad reason why this thread was born because proponents of hedious setups has simply overrun the other thread and wouldn't leave.
  
 Now I'll play you some blues to soothe the soul.


----------



## UntilThen

My goodness this sounds as good as when I heard it as a teenager. Any old rockers here?


----------



## whirlwind

I use to listen to a lot of this stuff back in the day, and I own a lot of it.
  
 I have not listened to very much of it for years  though.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I use to listen to a lot of this stuff back in the day, and I own a lot of it.
> 
> I have not listened to very much of it for years  though.


 
 I think we grew up in the same era.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I use to listen to a lot of this stuff back in the day, and I own a lot of it.
> ...


 
 Born in 1958


----------



## connieflyer

I was born before they started calling them "era's"!


----------



## connieflyer

I was born before they started calling them "era's"!


----------



## UntilThen

Oh how good is this. Lenny Kravitz doing Whole Lotta Love and the band is just fabulous. Standing ovation.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Born in 1958


 
 I knew it. Just 2 years younger than me.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I was born before they started calling them "era's"!


 
 Did they call it fourscore and twenty years in your time?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Hallelujah when they see the light.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 All's well that ends well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm awake and catching up on today's video offerings ))) I wanted to go out to The Breakfast Club this morning, but couldn't because I have been banned from that restaurant unless I'm with you. So I'll just have to settle for some leftover slop I can find in the dark reaches of my refrigerator


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> All's well that ends well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm afraid you've a lot of catching up to do. I have been doing a 12 hours shift here. When I go to sleep soon it's your turn ! 
  
 .... and not even slop for you.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> All's well that ends well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 LOL, I'm getting ready to go to sleep, Monica, Mina and Francis just left and I'm done cleaning up.
  
 Wish there was a transporter, I'd send you some left overs: poached Hawaiian spiny lobsters (2), Ahi (blue fin tuna) sashimi (1-1/2 lbs), beef Wellington (1) and Cajun chicken filet (3)


----------



## connieflyer

thanks for the transporter offer but you said Monica, Mina and Francis had already left so I will pass, thanks anyways


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> LOL, I'm getting ready to go to sleep, Monica, Mina and Francis just left and I'm done cleaning up.
> 
> Wish there was a transporter, I'd send you some left overs: poached Hawaiian spiny lobsters (2), Ahi (blue fin tuna) sashimi (1-1/2 lbs), beef Wellington (1) and Cajun chicken filet (3)


 

 Yeah. My health is now at risk. After thinking about such a feast I've decided to just starve to death rather than eat SLOP


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm afraid you've a lot of catching up to do. I have been doing a 12 hours shift here. When I go to sleep soon it's your turn !
> 
> .... and not even slop for you.


 

 Happy sleep. But I'm not worthy of carrying on in your absence. I'll look for something, but promise no Flying Saucer songs. I'll leave the high-brow stuff to @connieflyer


----------



## connieflyer

USED to be high brow, but with impending and current old age, brow has slipped, as has waist, mental cognoscente, finances, love life, damn at this rate I will have to start all over again


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Happy sleep. But I'm not worthy of carrying on in your absence. I'll look for something, but promise no Flying Saucer songs. I'll leave the high-brow stuff to @connieflyer


 
 Just make sure that when I'm awake, the thread isn't shut down. Family oriented thread here. There are under 15s reading. No R rated stuff. I trust I can trust a lawyer.
  
 Oh question for you.
  
 An honest politician, a hard working civil servant and Santa went to a pub to drink and pick up a $100 tab. Who paid?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Just make sure that when I'm awake, the thread isn't shut down. Family oriented thread here. There are under 15s reading. No R rated stuff. I trust I can trust a lawyer.
> 
> Oh question for you.
> 
> An honest politician, a hard working civil servant and Santa went to a pub to drink and pick up a $100 tab. Who paid?


 

 Much too early in the day to switch on my brain. I give. Who ?????


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> USED to be high brow, but with impending and current old age, brow has slipped, as has waist, mental cognoscente, finances, love life, damn at this rate I will have to start all over again


 

 Have you considered taking up knitting ???? I'll start looking for a good site on that for us to start frequenting.


----------



## connieflyer

I really appreciate that suggestion, I think


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Just make sure that when I'm awake, the thread isn't shut down. Family oriented thread here. There are under 15s reading. No R rated stuff. I trust I can trust a lawyer.
> 
> Oh question for you.
> 
> An honest politician, a hard working civil servant and Santa went to a pub to drink and pick up a $100 tab. Who paid?




The hard working civil servant. No such thing as an honest polition or Santa. Easy one.

And no, I never heard it before.


----------



## connieflyer

Wait no santa, then who has been eating the cookies I left out? He also emptied the scotch bottle, I figured he needed it for the cold.  I suppose I will have to lock the door now.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> The hard working civil servant. No such thing as an honest polition or Santa. Easy one.
> 
> And no, I never heard it before.


 
 Wrong ! Santa paid of course. The other 2 are myth and legends. Only Santa is real.


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer. I think this is a good one for us:


----------



## connieflyer

Still play that, when I remember to put it on.  Great song and group. We had it all back then.


----------



## connieflyer

Website keeps saying I have submitted form but does not update, hit it again it double posts. This new year is not starting out well.  Oh crap,it has not started yet!


----------



## connieflyer

Nice harmony..


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Website keeps saying I have submitted form but does not update, hit it again it double posts. This new year is not starting out well.  Oh crap,it has not started yet!




The site has been acting up like that lately causing more double posts than usual.


----------



## pctazhp

I've posted this before, but it is one of my favorites. In my youth (trying hard to remember) I spent many an evening listening to Waylon at the old JD's at the river bottom on south Scottsdale Road. It's now a mattress store. Great memories


----------



## connieflyer

Nice harmony..


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Nice harmony..





 Wonderful songs. So many great memories this morning


----------



## connieflyer

Were you part of the flower power?
 
  
 1968


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Were you part of the flower power?
> 
> 1968


 
  
 As best I could be as a young Marine at the time. I did attend the huge anti-war protest in DC right after I had graduated from Quantico and shortly before I shipped off for Nam ))))


----------



## connieflyer

I got back in 1966 and we were shall we say not in favor of flowers at the time. To many friends ended up pushing up daisy's. But nothing ever changes, we exchange a little blood and gold, then  we rebuild the enemy, become "friends" and continue on until it is time fight some one else and the cycle repeats. Mankind never learns from the past, we just keep repeating it, thinking we will have a different outcome.  Oh well thank you for your service,as I am sure when you came home, as did I, we were shunned for all the evil we did on their behalf.  Preaching over


----------



## connieflyer

Last one, waiting for this one now, it will be a comfort for me anyways


----------



## mordy

Read the Dire Warning from DL and hypnos1's exhortations to stay away from multiple tube set-ups - personally, I am more afraid of defective tube adapters, having lost three EL3N tubes and an amp (not Elise) to those.
 And I agree with richdytch that 6SN7 drivers with dual 6BX7/6SN7 powers sounds very good.
  
 But in the spirit of conformity, unity and safety, let's just say that the only six-pack allowed on this thread is:
  




  
 Been a good boy - just tried an all RCA four tube set-up with very good results:
  
 High wire 1965 RCA 6SN7 and 1960 RCA 6080. Nominated for 2016 Bargain Tube Complement - paid around $20 for all four. After a six pack of beer, who needs the GEC6AS7/EL3N tubes?
  




  
 Some of my grandchildren are allergic to peanuts, so my wife put the bag near the amp - she knows that NOBODY is allowed to go near it!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I got back in 1966 and we were shall we say not in favor of flowers at the time. To many friends ended up pushing up daisy's. But nothing ever changes, we exchange a little blood and gold, then  we rebuild the enemy, become "friends" and continue on until it is time fight some one else and the cycle repeats. Mankind never learns from the past, we just keep repeating it, thinking we will have a different outcome.  Oh well thank you for your service,as I am sure when you came home, as did I, *we were shunned for all the evil we did on their behalf.*  Preaching over


 
 It was a very strange experience. I was there in 70-71. Three months before I returned home the Marine 1st Division colors returned to Pendleton and the Army's Americal Division took over responsibility for the DaNang sector. . The war was such a tragedy, but I have never regretted my time in the Marines. In some respects I never did feel like I quite fit in to the world as it was when I returned home, but I don't consider that a negative. What I probably found the most strange was that almost no one ever asked me about my experience in VietNam. By that time the war was just something most Americans wanted to forget and move on. It took a long time for those who sacrificed everything to be properly honored.


----------



## whirlwind

Anybody here thought about or is going to be getting the new dynamic cans from ZMF headphones ?


----------



## pctazhp

Please indulge this Old Geezer just one more for the day. I saw The Kingston Trio twice in concert in their later days. The second time was one of their last concerts. I remember two comments from that concert. First, they admitted they had never been to the island of Kingston. They just thought it was a cool name when they were getting started in the Bay Area. Second, they said Chilly Winds had been their most requested song over the years.


----------



## UntilThen

Wah so solemn. Alright I shall play you this beautiful song. This tells a story without saying a word.


----------



## connieflyer

He is truly one of the great artists.  Always appreciated his work


----------



## connieflyer

Of course we could share this one for @HOWIE13


----------



## connieflyer

In honor of those like @pctazhp that gave so much, and I will leave this subject now....


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Anybody here thought about or is going to be getting the new dynamic cans from ZMF headphones ?


 
 I have not but I did think about an LCD 2.2 although I wonder if that would be a 'good' fit for an OTL amp.
  
 I love what I'm hearing from T1. My ears are tuned to it. That's right my ear are tuned to it now. Most people have customed made headphones tuned to their ears. My son has a custom made IEM for his ears.
  
 Some people are bothered by the treble spike in the T1 but I've never felt it. It's just crystal clear to me. As much as I think the HE-560 is a capable and articulate headphone, I find the T1 much clearer and a better fit for me.
  
 Do tell me more. I can imagine your HD800 and ZMF Ori? on the opposite end of the scale. Having heard the ZMF, did it make you closet the HD800 or are you just happy to alternate them to suit the music you're listening to.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok I'm teary now but I'll play this song for both of you one more time.


----------



## DecentLevi

mordy said:


> Read the Dire Warning from DL and hypnos1's exhortations to stay away from multiple tube set-ups - personally, I am more afraid of defective tube adapters, having lost three EL3N tubes and an amp (not Elise) to those.
> And I agree with richdytch that 6SN7 drivers with dual 6BX7/6SN7 powers sounds very good.
> 
> But in the spirit of conformity, unity and safety, let's just say that the only six-pack allowed on this thread is:
> ...


 
  


richdytch said:


> OK. It's a very long time since I felt like a naughty schoolboy but the 6bl7/6sn7 power tubes have been removed and I'm now running RCA 6080. I have to say though, that in my particular system, no combination of any of the 6080 tubes I own, with either 6sn7 or el3n, sounds anywhere near as nice as the sn/bl setup I was running with good 6sn7 drivers. I just demoed the difference to a friend who concluded without prompting that the bl/sn config sounded far better.
> 
> But I'm happy to accept your well-intentioned warnings and will go back to the drawing board. Looks like I might be having something of a tube sale in the near future as I try to acquire some Bendix 6080, TS 5998 or GEC 6as7g. Cetron 7236 are also on my horizon.
> 
> ...


  
 Funny guys, but my original intentions had actually been to find a new multi power setup that beats the flagship tubes, only to be plagued with lower sonic performance and multiple warning signs of impending damage to my amp... that and seeing how my first Elise may have been damaged by multi power tubes, I decided I'd throw out some caution on these. And Rich that's interesting those sound the best on your system, maybe it has something to do with your exact tube types or headphone synergy. But still I'd recon the longer you run multi mixed power tubes on Elise, the greater the chance your system is damaged - possibly has something to do with throwing the operating points off or something. And as UT agrees with as his motto: "*get better sonic performance and a longer lasting amp with a simpler setup."*

  
 PS- I do think the multi EL3N's are allowed on this thread


----------



## DecentLevi

Also @hypnos1 , have you have been able to try other headphones than the T1 with your Elise II? And any chance you may recall the sonic performance of any other flagship tube amps so you could at least to do a vague by-memory comparison between those and your reworked Elise? Thanks in advance


----------



## UntilThen

I was going to make my motto KISS but I'm afraid this band might sue me.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Also @hypnos1 , have you have been able to try other headphones than the T1 with your Elise II? And any chance you may recall the sonic performance of any other flagship tube amps so you could at least to do a vague by-memory comparison between those and your reworked Elise? Thanks in advance


 
  
@hypnos1  hypnotise us with this post on Christmas Day.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4275#post_13114451


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> PS- I do think the multi EL3N's are allowed on this thread


 
 Correct I just slip it in on Christmas Day to make Santa happy. All red is the color of the festive season.
  
 Question for you DL.
  
 What is the best instrument in music?


----------



## DecentLevi

Of course that's a subjective question, but for percussive instruments I like latin drums such as bongo, conga and timbale, hence my recent re-discovery of latin jazz; otherwize I like the trumpet.
 For synthetic music I like synthesizers of course, and as an electronic producer I have created several anologue/synthetic hybrids such as synth+convolution reverb and otherwise supermodified field recordings. Though I do admit I have been spending way too much time on audiophile-_ism_ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lately so I shall make that one of my New Year 2017 resolutions to spend more time producing


----------



## UntilThen

Ah ha you said drums and you have half of it correct.
  
 The answer is 'A broken drum'. Nothing can beat it. 
  
 My New Year resolution is never to ask anymore questions.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> In honor of those like @pctazhp that gave so much, and I will leave this subject now....





 OK. In the interest of setting the record straight and trying to get this thread back to happier thoughts, the main thing I gave in VietNam as a JAG officer was a lot of bad legal advice


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Wah so solemn. Alright I shall play you this beautiful song. This tells a story without saying a word.


 
 Year end reflection is kind of an Old Geezer thing, until someone asks if the alternative (what my x-mother-in-law used to call "changing zip codes") is preferable. That's when it's time to pop the cork and let the bubbly flow.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Ok I'm teary now but I'll play this song for both of you one more time.





 Thanks UT. Very powerful. Certainly brought tears to my eyes. A great reminder to all of us to be grateful for each day we are given and not let a single one go to waste.


----------



## UntilThen

Playing 'Reflections of my Life' for you is a mistake. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Alright onwards to happier things.


----------



## UntilThen

I think I will have a post Christmas sale of some of my tubes. I'm drowning with tubes now.


----------



## connieflyer

Make a list and check it twice and we will see if you are naughty or nice!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Cheers all...

I see this thread had boiled down the the usual 4 or 5 suspects 

Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas and wish all here a Happy New Year, as well.

I don't post here anymore because I have stopped head-phone-ing...listen (almost exclusively) via speakers these days .

Glad to see all here are still at it.

My Turntable, LP collection and music den (with 250 watt SS amp and DIY speakers)...is what I enjoy the most...here is the 'Well Tempered' table spinning an old classic 




Keep on keepin' on, y'all 


-- JV --


----------



## connieflyer

Nice to see you around again, drop in from time to time, I listen to headphones and a speaker system, enjoy both so post away


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Don't sell them now. The good ones go up in value, and the others that you don't listen to suddenly come into the spotlight in a new combination that somebody discovered (only combos of four of course). I am speaking from experience.....
  
 DL: The only six pack allowed on this thread is a six pack of beer. But the other Feliks thread allows it......
  
 BTW, got a good laugh when a reviewer wrote in the current issue of Stereophile magazine of the Woo Audio WA5 headphone amp: _" I am biased toward *affordable*, lovingly engineered audio creations made by family businesses with traditional artisanal values."_
  
 The price of Woo WA5: $5899.00
  
 Bring on the Elise MKII!


----------



## mordy

Hi JV,
  
 Good to hear from you - no more Elise?
  
 I am listening to speakers using the Elise as a preamp, every day.....


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody here thought about or is going to be getting the new dynamic cans from ZMF headphones ?
> ...


 
  
 I thought maybe somebody here had pre-ordered one of the new ZMF dynamic headphones.
  
 They should be the perfect match at 300 ohms.
  
 I will be getting one of them as soon as i have enough funds saved up.
  
 The LCD 2.2 may not be a perfect match for the OTL, but it may still power them well, never know until you try.
  
 The ZMF Ori is not a perfect match for my amp, being they are planars and 50 Ohm....but I find myself listening to them more than the HD800 lately....I am by no means a bass head....but the sub bass on these are so darn good...it makes you want more and it makes me want to try they dynamic cans from Zach and the bass on the Atticus is apparently as good as the Ori.


----------



## angpsi

Closing in on 80 hours of consecutive burn-in, things are opening up! Speaking of bass, here's today's Tidal find - Billie's Blues by Cassandra Wilson - to which the HD600 are rendering a very interesting soundscape (very revealing too)! [VIDEO]https://youtu.be/PB1HK-rlVig[/VIDEO]


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Hi JV,
> 
> Good to hear from you - no more Elise?
> 
> I am listening to speakers using the Elise as a preamp, every day.....




Yes, I know how you use Elise, Mordy.

Still have it, don't use it.

Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

Consecutive 80 hours !

Power it down after every 8 hours @angpsi. It's not stress testing.


----------



## DecentLevi

@hypnos1 I just read your excellent post here on your upgraded Elise. I see, hopefully in a few months you'll get the chance to A/B the new Elise with other top tube amps. We'll also enjoy your take on the HD-650 pairing when you get the chance


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Consecutive 80 hours !
> 
> Power it down after every 8 hours @angpsi. It's not stress testing.



Ok, thanks; taking your advice right away! She's running rather cool though (like, 'warm' rather than 'hot'; I can actually touch the tubes)


----------



## mordy

Tonight I tried my Tung Sol 5998 tubes. Some time back I had tried them, but did not like them, using the EL3N as drivers.
  
 Now I used my Hiwire RCA 6SN7 as drivers - excellent sound. The 5998 tubes play louder (more gain than other 6AS7 tubes) and have tremendous punch in the bass and sizzle in the treble plus a very open, upfront, engaging presentation.
  
 Pct, I think you said that you did not like the 5998s if I remember correctly - maybe the drivers you used with them.
  
 Different than the GEC/EL sound, but great, or as the cellphone gen says it: Gr8!
  
 U can get intoxicated with the all the musical possibilities the Elise has, without a six-pack....


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Don't sell them now. The good ones go up in value, and the others that you don't listen to suddenly come into the spotlight in a new combination that somebody discovered (only combos of four of course). I am speaking from experience.....


 
 Survive the post Christmas sale crowd and came home in one piece !
  
 Yeah Mordy I'm lazy selling tubes. They will probably end up boxed and stored away till the next millennium.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I thought maybe somebody here had pre-ordered one of the new ZMF dynamic headphones.
> 
> They should be the perfect match at 300 ohms.
> 
> ...


 
 Oh wow, blink and you miss the latest news on Head-Fi. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, WW - ZMF dynamic headphones (Atticus and Eikon) that are ideal for OTL amps like Elise.
  
 Guess what. I went to ZMF website and there was @ProfFalkin review of it and he has ordered Elise. 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/3510#post_13040509
  
 Yes I remember ProfFalkin now. He mentioned something about Matthew Boderick and a game of chess with me. He's not going to stand a chance. I'm the downunder champ. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So ProfFalkin, 2 questions. Have you got Elise yet? If so, how does the ZMF dynamic headphones sound on Elise? 
  
 Loves tubes. Sounds good.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/821782/atticus-and-eikon-the-new-dynamic-driver-headphones-from-zmf/45#post_12906851


----------



## ProfFalkin

untilthen said:


> Oh wow, blink and you miss the latest news on Head-Fi. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, WW - ZMF dynamic headphones (Atticus and Eikon) that are ideal for OTL amps like Elise.
> 
> Guess what. I went to ZMF website and there was @ProfFalkin
> review of it and he has ordered Elise.
> ...




I did receive my Elise! I like it a lot. It is a great contrast in ways to my Jotunheim. I'm rolling a few tubes through now, but unfortunately all I have to really pair my Elise with for testing is my 10+ year old HD650s. I think all in really doing is burning in a few tubes before the ZMF dynamics arrive. 

The Eikon and Atticus have not shipped yet, but they are the primary reason I got the Elise, and I'll post impressions when they arrive.

As for the chess game, I'm a little rusty, so be gentle.


----------



## UntilThen

proffalkin said:


> I did receive my Elise! I like it a lot. It is a great contrast in ways to my Jotunheim. I'm rolling a few tubes through now, but unfortunately all I have to really pair my Elise with for testing is my 10+ year old HD650s. I think all in really doing is burning in a few tubes before the ZMF dynamics arrive.
> 
> The Eikon and Atticus have not shipped yet, but they are the primary reason I got the Elise, and I'll post impressions when they arrive.
> 
> As for the chess game, I'm a little rusty, so be gentle.


 
 Ah there you are. I won't steal your Queen as long as you post your ZMF headphones with Elise here. You have 2 of them? Darn it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've been doing a bit of reading. Atticus seems to have similar threads to HD650 and Focal Elear whilst the Eikon seems more neutral and crisp. Having got used to T1, I think I might prefer Eikon more although it's enjoyable to just settle in and enjoy the music with HD650 without analysing too much.
  
 Glad you're liking Elise a lot and that's just at the burn in stage.


----------



## ProfFalkin

untilthen said:


> Ah there you are. I won't steal your Queen as long as you post your ZMF headphones with Elise here. You have 2 of them? Darn it. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> I've been doing a bit of reading. Atticus seems to have similar threads to HD650 and Focal Elear whilst the Eikon seems more neutral and crisp. Having got used to T1, I think I might prefer Eikon more although it's enjoyable to just settle in and enjoy the music with HD650 without analysing too much.
> 
> Glad you're liking Elise a lot and that's just at the burn in stage.



Indeed. I have both the Atticus and Eikon on preorder. I'm very excited for them to get here.

I heard both at RMAF and would not describe the Atticus as similar to the 650. The bass, mids and treble are better on the Atticus. 

I wish I had some meaningful time to spend with some T1s. I'm not overly fond of the DT series sound, but I might like the T1 sound.


----------



## UntilThen

proffalkin said:


> Indeed. I have both the Atticus and Eikon on preorder. I'm very excited for them to get here.
> 
> I heard both at RMAF and would not describe the Atticus as similar to the 650. The bass, mids and treble are better on the Atticus.
> 
> I wish I had some meaningful time to spend with some T1s. I'm not overly fond of the DT series sound, but I might like the T1 sound.


 
 Nice to be able to hear it before ordering. Seems like a lot of favourable reviews before it's even shipped. Some reviewers obviously were sent the HPs to be reviewed. At 300 ohms, it's ideal for an OTL amp like Elise. There are many OTL amps on the market that will be ideal for it.
  
 T1 is not similar to DT880. I have the DT880 250ohms at one time. T1 is much more engaging and the bass is taut and tight with impact. It's not as full bodied as a HD650. More in the veins of a HD600 but with more finesse, faster transient and a wider soundstage. It's hard to associate Beyer sound with Senns because they are different house sound signature.


----------



## ProfFalkin

untilthen said:


> T1 is not similar to DT880. I have the DT880 250ohms at one time. T1 is much more engaging and the bass is taut and tight with impact. It's not as full bodied as a HD650. More in the veins of a HD600 but with more finesse, faster transient and a wider soundstage. It's hard to associate Beyer sound with Senns because they are different house sound signature.




Truer words were never spoken. Hehehe. It only took me 8 years to figure out I don't care for either house sound. I really really want to like Beyer. They are so comfy! And good build quality (of which I'm not a fan concerning Sennheiser in general). I just can't do the treble Beyerdynamic uses and Sennheisers sound lifeless to me. Yay for ZMF!


----------



## UntilThen

When the Sennheiser owners wakes up they will chase you across the Atlantic ))


----------



## ProfFalkin

untilthen said:


> When the Sennheiser owners wakes up they will chase you across the Atlantic ))



They can try. I have great line of sight to the surrounding property and a very good scope.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Of course we could share this one for @HOWIE13




  
 Thanks-that's a really nice and interesting arrangement.


----------



## DecentLevi

RIP George Michael!!! Or should I say PLEASE come back to life!!! He was only 53! Though the music world will thrive, the universe just may be a little sadder now that him & Prince had both died on the same Earth year. And how ironic it was that he died on Christmas, having a great song "Last Christmas". I posted a remix of that song here 2 days ago, not even knowing he had passed. I liked most all of his songs, and much of his albums were mastered with magnificent quality, especially his earlier works as Wham. And assuredly, they sounded spectacular on my Elise.


----------



## richdytch

decentlevi said:


> PS- I do think the multi EL3N's are allowed on this thread




Hi Dl, agree that it's odd that the sn/bl setup works well for both Mordy and I, but think it must be a loudspeaker thing. We are both primarily speaker listeners.

While sn/bl was undeniably next level for me, I never doubted that things such as Bendix 6080 or TS 5998, could do better. I just doubted my ability to acquire some. But, as I said, I might have a gear sale in January. 

I would say that I believe all the warnings applied to sn/bl should also apply to EL3N, its cousins and six packs thereof. FA have always be clear that using el3n invalidates your warranty and as I mentioned before, El3n or multiples of it are the only things that HAVE given me distinct warning signs. That said, I'm now listening to RCA 6AS7GTB and EL3N, which at the moment I'd classify as the audio equivalent of a reprimanded child going off down the garden to eat worms. But not as bad as the RCAs with any 6SN7 I tried. That, my friends, is the sonic equivalent of a dirty protest.

For me, sn/bl can't be unheard, but I'm going to stay on the right side of caution and try to find a legitimate path to something as good, or better. I think the main thing that frustrates me is that there are no new production power tubes of the calibre we require. 

Or are there?


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> proffalkin said:
> 
> 
> > I did receive my Elise! I like it a lot. It is a great contrast in ways to my Jotunheim. I'm rolling a few tubes through now, but unfortunately all I have to really pair my Elise with for testing is my 10+ year old HD650s. I think all in really doing is burning in a few tubes before the ZMF dynamics arrive.
> ...


 
 +1
  
 I will look forward to your impressions of the cans...I am sure I will be grabbing one of them...leaning towards the Atticus at the moment


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Tonight I tried my Tung Sol 5998 tubes. Some time back I had tried them, but did not like them, using the EL3N as drivers.
> 
> Now I used my Hiwire RCA 6SN7 as drivers - excellent sound. The 5998 tubes play louder (more gain than other 6AS7 tubes) and have tremendous punch in the bass and sizzle in the treble plus a very open, upfront, engaging presentation.
> 
> ...


 

 Mordy. I can't really disagree with your description of the 5998s. But for me, all in all, everything just doesn't seem to come together particularly well with my HD800S. I have tried them mainly with EL3N and c3g drivers. To me they are good, but not great. The bass just isn't quite right in the way it integrates with the rest of the FR and the highs seem a little sterile. But that is just my particular experience. I understand they work great for others, including you ))))


----------



## pctazhp

proffalkin said:


> I did receive my Elise! I like it a lot. It is a great contrast in ways to my Jotunheim. I'm rolling a few tubes through now, but unfortunately all I have to really pair my Elise with for testing is my 10+ year old HD650s. I think all in really doing is burning in a few tubes before the ZMF dynamics arrive.
> 
> *The Eikon and Atticus have not shipped yet, but they are the primary reason I got the Elise, and I'll post impressions when they arrive.*
> 
> As for the chess game, I'm a little rusty, so be gentle.


 
 I'm very much looking forward to your reports. It is great having new blood and new headphones here


----------



## Oskari

richdytch said:


> I think the main thing that frustrates me is that there are no new production power tubes of the calibre we require.
> 
> Or are there?




There is no 6AS7G/6080 in current production, AFAIK.


----------



## pctazhp

I also don't know of any current production 6AS7G/6080. This is my personal take on the situation. Elise with F-A supplied tubes is an outstanding value at its price point. To realize its full potential does require tubes that are often difficult to find and/or expensive. That's sort of the fact of life for those of us who choose to use an amp that is based on technology that most of the world left behind decades ago.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Perhaps you have a pair of 6SN7 tubes like the OEM Russian reissues - you should to try them with the 5998 tubes. I do not have any issues with bass and FR.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Perhaps you have a pair of 6SN7 tubes like the OEM Russian reissues - you should to try them with the 5998 tubes. I do not have any issues with bass and FR.


 

 Mordy. Right now I'm running the 5998s with my Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7WGT NOS Brown Base Black Plate drivers. It is a significant improvement. Highs are sweeter and bass seems pretty well behaved. Most importantly, I'm experiencing an emotional connection to music that was lacking when running the 5998s with c3g or EL3N.
  
 I really can't provide a reliable comparison with my GEC power tubes or Bendix 6080. I lack @DecentLevi youth and stamina))) If I have any critical comment it would be that 5998 is a pretty aggressive tube that might not be perfectly suited to my taste or headphone, but I could easily live with them. If I were looking for positive comments that might make them equal or even better than my other top power tubes in certain respects, I would say the soundstage and holography quality of the 5998 is truly outstanding and midrange is very natural.


----------



## connieflyer

I agree


----------



## UntilThen

There 5998 reasons to like or not like 5998. Let's look at some of them and in the process I'll try to shed some light on their sonic signature. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Nick Tam regard this as the reference tube for 6as7g. Well I would disagree. They are as different as Marilyn Monroe from Jane Fonda. Both good in their own ways. He further says that 5998 is linear, detailed and has very good bass. Alright, this I agree with. He also further states that along with the other top tubes, the biggest difference between them and the standard bog tubes is an entire layer / dimension added that is missing from the standard garden variety. It does sound that way when listening to 5998 compared to base RCA 6as7g.
  
 5998 is an energised power tube. I've heard it described as harsh, unrefined but these are terms I disagree with. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Remember, 'linear, detailed and very good bass'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some says it's great with rock and electronic. I get it why they would say that but I would not compartmentalise 5998 to only certain genre. 
  
 However I also understand why some would prefer more mellow and smoother 6as7g. Just different icing on the cake for me. I like them all and have stopped analysing them too much because that's giving too much credit to tubes rather than the tube amp.


----------



## connieflyer

Carrie Fisher passed away a little while ago, one of the few in hollywood I admired.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Carrie Fisher passed away a little while ago, one of the few in hollywood I admired.


 
 I admire Han Solo, Obi-wan Kenobi and R2-D2.... and Chewbacca.
  
 Yeah I'll miss Princess Leia.


----------



## DecentLevi

Look at the front page of HF - we're #1 again and UT is the #1 hi-fi 'superstar' of the moment. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Look what you achieved all on your weekend, UT... and look how this thread is at only 300 pages... somehow I've got a feeling you've got your future dialogue planned for smooth sailing on the next 500.
  
 And remarkably, we've managed to make it here while keeping more on topic


----------



## hypnos1

proffalkin said:


> Truer words were never spoken. Hehehe. It only took me 8 years to figure out I don't care for either house sound. *I really really want to like Beyer.* They are so comfy! And good build quality (of which I'm not a fan concerning Sennheiser in general). I just can't do the treble Beyerdynamic uses and Sennheisers sound lifeless to me. Yay for ZMF!


 
  
 Hi PF...sorry if I'm rubbing salt into the wound, but it's a shame you didn't come to the party a little later - ie. when Elise "MKII" comes on the market. Much as I found that, with the right tubes and rest of the gear, my T1s _hardly_ ever suffered from the occasional-mentioned "downsides"...(indeed, as with @whirlwind, I love them to bits lol!), the new amp makes the Beyers sing like I never believed possible. Mind you, this is with my recent mesh-plated '40s Valvo EL11 drivers.
 I do have to admit that at the moment - possibly due to insufficient burn-in time, the stock TS 6SN7GTBs come nowhere near in SQ, but at least still show the T1s to be eminently suited to this amp. I have yet to try other driver/power combinations, as well as the HD650s...so - @DecentLevi - I hope to have more info on these aspects _fairly_ soon lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and thanks @UntilThen for posting the link to my earlier related comments 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 But I must admit, the T1s do need the rest of the setup _helping_ them in this regard, rather than working _against_ lol!
  


richdytch said:


> Hi Dl, agree that it's odd that the sn/bl setup works well for both Mordy and I, but think it must be a loudspeaker thing. We are both primarily speaker listeners.
> 
> While sn/bl was undeniably next level for me, I never doubted that things such as Bendix 6080 or TS 5998, could do better. I just doubted my ability to acquire some. But, as I said, I might have a gear sale in January.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi rd...I must confess to being really intrigued by your experience of the EL3N - there _must_ be something amiss _somewhere_ in your own paricular setup, I'm afraid. I personally have used a good few of them for months now, and for _*many*_, _*many*_ hours at a time, with no hint whatsoever of anything untoward.... the opposite, in fact. They - and six EL11s already - have actually given me the quietest, glitch-free time of _any_ tube I have used these past 2 years with Elise, and another 2 previously with my LD MKIVSE!...(apart from a TFK EL11 that was badly microphonic!). They also run the coolest of any other tube I've ever encountered, which can only be good for the circuits lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. In short, they have given me _*no concern whatsoever*_, and I must have used them for longer than anyone else on head-fi LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Further encouragement came from Glenn, of Glenn Amps, who was - and I quote - "shocked" by their performance, and which was in a 6SN7 circuit before he built his own amp using transformer output instead of power tubes. And he never mentioned any qualms about this initial circuit use.
  
 There are also a good few other Elise owners who have put many hours on the EL3N, with no hint of possible trouble. I can only conclude that the odd (severe) divergence from these experiences is down to very unfortunate circumstances other than this particular tube family....ie. _individual_ tube problems/adapter problems etc., as opposed to poor synergy with other gear/personal preference etc., of course!
  
 I am really sorry you yourself appear to be one of these extremely unlucky few...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


pctazhp said:


> I also don't know of any current production 6AS7G/6080. This is my personal take on the situation. Elise with F-A supplied tubes is an outstanding value at its price point. *To realize its full potential does require tubes that are often difficult to find and/or expensive*. That's sort of the fact of life for those of us who choose to use an amp that is based on technology that most of the world left behind decades ago.


 
  
 TOO TRUE pct. And this is _*even more*_ so the case with the new Elise, as I mentioned above. The difference between the TungSol reissues and the old Valvo EL11s is *VAST *lol!!  I am in fact hoping (and hope_ful_) that the much more readily available, very good measuring used RFT EL11s will at least come close to these Black Glass Valvos, and at a very reasonable price indeed...especially now that @HOWIE13 has persuaded Mrs Xulong to make adapters for them. I hope to be putting said RFT tubes through their paces very soon also...(if I can squeeze more than 24hrs into the day, that is lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 It is now quite clear that both Elises scale wonderfully with the standard of tubes used - testament indeed to the achievements of another "_*small, family-run concern*_"!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS, Feliks-Audio!...


----------



## connieflyer

Having had the Beyer T1 V1, Sennheiser 650.700 and now the 800 with the Elise amp, I must say that the amp with the El3N's are very good indeed.  I had used the 6 pack for some time and had no ill effects from them.  I have also used the EL3N with various power tubes and again, nothing lacking in this tube. The thing I liked most about it was the apparent sound stage. Now using the Visseneau 6n7G and TS 5998's the amp is sounding very good indeed.  When the Elise next version is released I will be purchasing one, after hearing @hynos1 review his new amp and knowing of his passion for music and honest evaluations, I for one am convinced this it the way forward for me.


----------



## connieflyer

Wanted to add also that the Elise is a fine sounding amp and have enjoyed it using many various and sundry tubes and would have been satisfied to roll some more phones and tubes had it not been for @hypnos1 and his review, so if I am  to purchase one and run out of money for food, it is alllllll on himmm!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> There 5998 reasons to like or not like 5998. Let's look at some of them and in the process I'll try to shed some light on their sonic signature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You took the words right out of my mouth - well, at least words I would have thought of if I had your ability to compare and describe tubes


----------



## HOWIE13

_@hypnos1_
  
_'TOO TRUE pct. And this is *even more* so the case with the new Elise, as I mentioned above. The difference between the TungSol reissues and the old Valvo EL11s is *VAST* lol!!  I am in fact hoping (and hopeful) that the much more readily available, very good measuring used RFT EL11s will at least come close to these Black Glass Valvos, and at a very reasonable price indeed...especially now that @HOWIE13 has persuaded Mrs Xulong to make adapters for them. I hope to be putting said RFT tubes through their paces very soon also...(if I can squeeze more than 24hrs into the day, that is lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).'_
  
 YAY!  A pair of RFT EL11's has just arrived at Heathrow from Germany. It will be fascinating to compare them to the Telefunkens.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Having had the Beyer T1 V1, Sennheiser 650.700 and now the 800 with the Elise amp, I must say that the amp with the El3N's are very good indeed.  I had used the 6 pack for some time and had no ill effects from them.  I have also used the EL3N with various power tubes and again, nothing lacking in this tube. The thing I liked most about it was the apparent sound stage. Now using the Visseneau 6n7G and TS 5998's the amp is sounding very good indeed.  When the Elise next version is released I will be purchasing one, after hearing @hynos1 review his new amp and knowing of his passion for music and honest evaluations,* I for one am convinced this it the way forward for me.*


 
 Me too


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm also just wondering if the T1 synergises more readily with the 5998 than the HD800/800S ?


----------



## ProfFalkin

hypnos1 said:


> Hi PF...sorry if I'm rubbing salt into the wound, but it's a shame you didn't come to the party a little later - ie. when Elise "MKII" comes on the market. Much as I found that, with the right tubes and rest of the gear, my T1s _hardly_ ever suffered from the occasional-mentioned "downsides"...(indeed, as with @whirlwind, I love them to bits lol!), the new amp makes the Beyers sing like I never believed possible. Mind you, this is with my recent mesh-plated '40s Valvo EL11 drivers.
> I do have to admit that at the moment - possibly due to insufficient burn-in time, the stock TS 6SN7GTBs come nowhere near in SQ, but at least still show the T1s to be eminently suited to this amp. I have yet to try other driver/power combinations, as well as the HD650s...so - @DecentLevi - I hope to have more info on these aspects _fairly_ soon lol!
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm not overly worried about not getting in on the MkII.   I've long gotten over the paralysis of not purchasing a product "because the next big thing is right around the corner" syndrome.  I comfort myself in knowing that the Mk I is well vetted, solidly built, has tons of resources and information available, and that I got it during the holiday sales price.   =)
  
 Now... if the Elise MkII comes along and utterly destroys the Mk I in performance for not much more money, then the used amp market is thriving at the moment and I'm sure whatever money I lose will be minimal. 
  
 I might pick up a used T1 if I can find it.   It will have to wait until after my wallet recovers from the holidays though!   If you are really quiet, you can probably hear it whimpering as I type this.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I'm also just wondering if the T1 synergises more readily with the 5998 than the HD800/800S ?


 

 I suspect that may be the case.


----------



## pctazhp

@hynos1. It's beginning to look like your flock may be preparing to follow you to a new level of Elisedom. Be prepared to start a new thread when F-A releases their new model.


----------



## pctazhp

proffalkin said:


> I'm not overly worried about not getting in on the MkII.   I've long gotten over the paralysis of not purchasing a product "because the next big thing is right around the corner" syndrome.  I comfort myself in knowing that the Mk I is well vetted, solidly built, has tons of resources and information available, and that I got it during the holiday sales price.   =)
> 
> Now... if the Elise MkII comes along and utterly destroys the Mk I in performance for not much more money, then the used amp market is thriving at the moment and I'm sure whatever money I lose will be minimal.
> 
> I might pick up a used T1 if I can find it.   It will have to wait until after my wallet recovers from the holidays though!   If you are really quiet, you can probably hear it whimpering as I type this.


 

 There is some suggestion that F-A may provide an upgrade path. Regardless, I'm sure our original Elise's will hold good market value or continue to satisfy the sane among us (which doesn't include me) for years to come.


----------



## ProfFalkin

pctazhp said:


> There is some suggestion that F-A may provide an upgrade path. Regardless, I'm sure our original Elise's will hold good market value or continue to satisfy the sane among us (which doesn't include me) for years to come.


 
 Woah.   Wait.  
  
 Who the hell let sane people in?


----------



## connieflyer

Okay, what is this talk about sane people around here? New thread? I don't want to leave this one, I would need a split personality then, oh wait I don't have one yet of those either. For me it is not habing the newest but having the best hearing experience st a cost that is not crippling.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> But in the spirit of conformity, unity and safety, let's just say that the only six-pack allowed on this thread is:




I may have to try this new rolling trend.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I may have to try this new rolling trend.


 
 At the rate this thread is going I need the 6 pack and I don't mean tubes.
  
 I need also to upgrade my Elise. I have tested the sockets way past the 100 thousands kilometres.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I'm also just wondering if the T1 synergises more readily with the 5998 than the HD800/800S ?


 
 5998 will suit HD800. 
  
 HD800s is already bass enriched. You don't want to compete with Dr Beats.


----------



## UntilThen

proffalkin said:


> I'm not overly worried about not getting in on the MkII.   I've long gotten over the paralysis of not purchasing a product "because the next big thing is right around the corner" syndrome.  I comfort myself in knowing that the Mk I is well vetted, solidly built, has tons of resources and information available, and that I got it during the holiday sales price.   =)


 
 Wiser words have never been spoken. Now I return the compliment.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Look at the front page of HF - we're #1 again and UT is the #1 hi-fi 'superstar' of the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Is there a prize for this? Like a Eikon or Atticus?


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Wiser words have never been spoken. Now I return the compliment. :bigsmile_face:




Prof has a very *sane* point.


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> Is there a prize for this? Like a Eikon or Atticus?


You will be nominated poster child of the year, your face will be on all the milk cartons!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> They - and six EL11s already - have actually given me the quietest, glitch-free time of _any_ tube I have used these past 2 years with Elise


 
  
 Did you try 6xEL11 in Elise? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Alas I think you meant you've tried 6 different EL11s.
  


pctazhp said:


> @hynos1. It's beginning to look like your flock may be preparing to follow you to a new level of Elisedom. Be prepared to start a new thread when F-A releases their new model.


 
  
 He is the Pied Piper.


----------



## ProfFalkin

oskari said:


> Prof has a very *sane* point.


 
  
 I see what you did there.


----------



## connieflyer

Of course I would follow him, good info, good times, good grief I am a fan boy!!! Oh no!


----------



## connieflyer

And now a musical interlude


----------



## connieflyer

Was that old enough?


----------



## Spork67

connieflyer said:


> Was that old enough?


 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s90dZHBgsE


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp when you were in country did you ever see this?
The anual low level flyby's at Danang, flat out as low as you dared, the F-4;s usually won, but we were not the lowest but definetly the craziest ! Perhaps you saw us there.


----------



## connieflyer

spork67 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s90dZHBgsE


 
 This video contains content from SME, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds can't see it over here


----------



## hypnos1

proffalkin said:


> I'm not overly worried about not getting in on the MkII.   I've long gotten over the paralysis of not purchasing a product "because the next big thing is right around the corner" syndrome.  I comfort myself in knowing that the Mk I is well vetted, solidly built, has tons of resources and information available, and that I got it during the holiday sales price.   =)
> 
> Now... if the Elise MkII comes along and utterly destroys the Mk I in performance for not much more money, then the used amp market is thriving at the moment and I'm sure whatever money I lose will be minimal.
> 
> I might pick up a used T1 if I can find it.   It will have to wait until after my wallet recovers from the holidays though!   If you are really quiet, you can probably hear it whimpering as I type this.


 
  
 I hear you , Prof...I too thought I'd reached that blissful stage of _*enough is enough!*_ lol...but serendipitous circumstances (?!!!) had other ideas alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(doubt you've managed to plough through the plethora of past posts - say _that_ quickly! - to decipher such, however...but I salute you if you have indeed managed the feat LOL...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). And as you say, the MKI has most definitely proved her worth...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...HAPPY LISTENING!...
  


oskari said:


> Prof has a very *sane* point.


 
  
*I* used to have the odd one or two of those, O...how does that Mary Hopkin song go??!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(how many of you remember her beginnings on Hughie Green's "Opportunity Knocks"...and also fell in love with her? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


connieflyer said:


> Of course I would follow him, good info, good times, good grief I am a fan boy!!! Oh no!


 
  
 GOOD HEAVENS more like, cf!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(@UntilThen has _*much*_ to answer for lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 Anyway, enough of this...I'd better go see if those TS reissues are any better yet - if not, I'm straight back to my Valvos and to H*** with any further rolling!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...G'night all....


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> At the rate this thread is going I need the 6 pack and I don't mean tubes.




I have to report that leaking issues may have developed in lower registers.


----------



## connieflyer

Is that like a bass note low?


----------



## UntilThen

Unreal we did get to number 1 before the year is over. I've never look at the front page.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> GOOD HEAVENS more like, cf!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yup do that and don't forget to try on HD650 with the new Elise as requested by DL. 
  
 ... and report back here before you hit the sack.


----------



## connieflyer

@hypnos1 you heard the man, don't forget, and send money when you can, boat is taking on water and need plugs!


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Is that like a bass note low?




In a liquid mid-bass sort of way.


----------



## connieflyer

Makes it nice and mellow!


----------



## connieflyer

Nice and easy tonight, to much excitement today, paying bills grocery shopping doing laundry so time to kick back and turn up the volume ....


----------



## connieflyer

one last one, then make dinner, oh boy which frozen dinner tonight? Decisions great


----------



## mordy

Re the various views of the 5998 it seems that this tube changes character based on the tubes it is used together with; in other words, it is a question of SYNERGY.
  
 In my humble experience most great sounding tubes sound good in most pairings, but recently I came across some that need specific combinations to really sing.
  
 The 6BL7/6SN7 power tube combination needs 6SN7 drivers to sound good, and now the 5998 also needs to be paired with certain tubes to show it's full potential, in my case also 6SN7. (The 5998 and EL3N.C3g doesn't seem to synergize as well)
  
 Could be that ALL tubes need specific pairings in the Elise to show their best......Maybe.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg a miracle has happened.


----------



## UntilThen

I put on my HD650 after a few months quarantine and it's playing STEREO !!!


----------



## UntilThen

After 3 songs, it's still stereo. Happy days. It's back!!!! 
  
 Phew am I glad I didn't toss it away. This is the modded HD650. It sings.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 U made my day - haven't been able to sleep since that RCA tube popped......


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> U made my day - haven't been able to sleep since that RCA tube popped......


 
 You have no idea how happy I am.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I am dancing like Brad.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> *I* used to have the odd one or two of those, O...how does that Mary Hopkin song go??!!   ...(how many of you remember her beginnings on Hughie Green's "Opportunity Knocks"...and also fell in love with her? :confused_face: ).




Nope. But damn cute in the video linked here.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen glad you have the 650 back, dinners over so try this with those 650's be some changes made now six minutes of guitar goodness


----------



## mordy




----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen glad you have the 650 back, dinners over so try this with those 650's be some changes made now


 
 Amazing it's sounding like 850 now. I'm going to do a review of the modded HD650 'my way' soon with tubes I think are best suited to my listening taste.
  
 Wait let me try some classic Dire Straits like Six Blade Knife.
  
 Amazing... how I miss the modded HD650.


----------



## connieflyer

That is a good one, oh wait there is music with the picture, wow even better! Love those knives she is carriyng. The 650's are really good phones, I had two pair and you never know might have to do them again.


----------



## UntilThen

Dang @ProfFalkin if Atticus is better than modded HD650, it's going to be hard to resist.


----------



## whirlwind

I have owned the HD650 twice
  
 The ZMF Ori is like a HD650 on steroids.....hoping the Atticus is even better


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I have owned the HD650 twice
> 
> The ZMF Ori is like a HD650 on steroids.....hoping the Atticus is even better


 
 You're not helping my wallet WW.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I have owned the HD650 twice
> ...


 
 Sorry, my bad


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp when you were in country did you ever see this?
> The anual low level flyby's at Danang, flat out as low as you dared, the F-4;s usually won, but we were not the lowest but definetly the craziest ! Perhaps you saw us there.


 

 Missed it. I usually was only down at the airbase at night for parties with the nurses


----------



## connieflyer

That is where they hung out.  We weren't allowed anywhere not secured, even in the chow tent we had the last table with our squadron name on it, hush hush you know.  We were spooks then and now we are just old. Kind of figured you would be with the ladies, good for you.


----------



## UntilThen

Going from T1 to modded HD650 is a shfting of tone from super clarity to one more relaxed, more upfront mids and a nice mid bass thrust. When my ears adjust to each headphone, I can enjoy both even though hd650 is more warm, more lush without sounding bloated and enveloping while T1 is just super candy clear.
  
 A modded hd650 sounds a lot more superior than a standard hd650 - that's according to my ears.  Treble are much clearer and mids are more precise and tighter and bass has just gone through a diet course with well defined curves.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Missed it. I usually was only down at the airbase at night for parties with the nurses


 
 I was about to quote Winston Churchill for you.... Never was so much owed by so many to so few.
  
 But now knowing you party with nurses, I have to dig up something more appropriate.


----------



## connieflyer

Which mod did you use on them?


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Which mod did you use on them?


 
 3 easy steps:-
  
 1. Cut a hole the size of a 10c coin on the thin foam protecting the driver from your ears.
  
 2. Break the plastic spider behind the driver and remove the well padded foams.
  
 3. Dynamat the plastic areas surrounding the driver. Don't over dynamat or you'll get super boosted bass.
  
 See this section, with a little help from my friends. like they say in the song.    
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/561234/sennheiser-hd-650-mod-compilation/15#post_12524880


----------



## connieflyer

Just read a couple of reviews of the zmf and they did not get much favor. http://www.headfonia.com/review-zmf-headphones-omni-bocote-pm-who/ and http://www.thesoundapprentice.com/2016/10/zmf-headphones-omni.html the way they are talking I think I will pass on these


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Just read a couple of reviews of the zmf and they did not get much favor. http://www.headfonia.com/review-zmf-headphones-omni-bocote-pm-who/ and http://www.thesoundapprentice.com/2016/10/zmf-headphones-omni.html the way they are talking I think I will pass on these


 
 Those are reviews of ZMF Omni which is planar magentics. However I've read equally good reviews of the Omni and Blackwood models. 
  
 Eikon and Atticus are closed dynamic headphone with 300ohms impedance that works well with OTL as well as SS amps according to Head-fi reviews. It sounds promising. My only concern is the weight as all 3 of my headphones are light weight.  
  
 However those who have tried the 2 ZMF dynamics seems to find the weight non issue.
  
 As with all headphones, the experience can vary from person to person and reviewer to reviewer.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> That is where they hung out.  We weren't allowed anywhere not secured, even in the chow tent we had the last table with our squadron name on it, hush hush you know.  We were spooks then and now we are just old. Kind of figured you would be with the ladies, good for you.


 

 There was a real advantage being a JAG officer. I had my Captain's bars, could go anywhere I wanted and really didn't answer to anyone. Honestly, it was a pretty crazy tour. At one point I was medevaced to the US Naval Hospital, Guam, for an anal fistula operation (sorry for the visual image that creates!!!) and spent a month there recovering. That consisted of taking sits baths 3 times a day (another charming visual) and getting drunk the rest of the time. My roommate was a Marine Lieutenant who had his hand mangled by a hand grenade he had grabbed to save the life of one of his Privates. Our mutual medical conditions (sick humor intended) and taste in alcohol and women led to bonding)))) When I was released from the hospital I checked in at the Marine office to ship back to DaNang. They asked me if I wanted to stay a couple of extra weeks to rest up. But I turned them down because I figured my life was in less danger back in Nam!!!!
  
 I had also convinced a military judge at 1st Marine Division that psychiatric personnel in-country weren't adequate to evaluate a young Marine I was defending on a capital murder charge and he ordered us to Okinawa for a month for evaluation at an Army hospital. My duty there involved accompanying my client each day to his appointments. The rest of my time of course was spent getting drunk and chasing women. My favorite hangout was where the lovely Snake Lady, Tattoo Lady and Sword Lady performed nightly))
  
 On top of all that, my hootch-mate in DaNang was head of the Division R&R program, and he arranged for me to take several unused trips to Hong Kong and Bangkok. The British Naval PX in Hong Kong is where I bought my first audiophile-level speakers - a pair of Wharfedales. 
 Many Sundays the entire legal office drove down to China Beach for steak and lobster on the beach. Life was pretty tough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Think MASH )))
  
 I actually am memorialized on pages 215-216 of this book. https://archive.org/details/MarinesAndMilitaryLawInVietnamTrialByFire
 So now I have told ALL


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> On top of all that, my hootch-mate in DaNang was head of the Division R&R program, and he arranged for me to take several unused trips to Hong Kong and *Bangkok*. The British Naval PX in Hong Kong is where I bought my first audiophile-level speakers - a pair of Wharfedales.
> Many Sundays the entire legal office drove down to China Beach for steak and lobster on the beach. *Life was pretty tough*
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for telling ALL and I can imagine one night in Bangkok to be really tough.
  
 
  
 Good thing @Lorspeaker isn't around.


----------



## connieflyer

Which Whsrfdales did you have? I had a pair of W60D and a pair of W60E


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Which Whsrfdales did you have? I had a pair of W60D and a pair of W60E


 

 I really don't remember. They would have been a 1970 or 71 model, and big. I drove them with a Sansui receiver, but don't remember the model number of that either. I've been racking my brain to remember the turntable, but alas too many dead brain cells. I do remember I also had a Teac reel-to-reel.
  
 Edit:  The irony has not escaped me that I could remember Snake Lady, Tattoo Lady and Sword Lady, but not much about my first audiophile system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Further edit:  I think I remember them because a buddy of mine I usually went with was in love with Snake Lady. One night she got pretty fed up with him and chased us around the club with her snakes


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Thanks for telling ALL and I can imagine one night in Bangkok to be really tough.
> 
> 
> 
> Good thing @Lorspeaker isn't around.





 OMG. Where were they when I was there????? I would have married all five !!!!!


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> OMG. Where were they when I was there????? I would have married all five !!!!!




:rolleyes: Somebody ruined the track though.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgc_LRjlbTU[/VIDEO]


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> Somebody ruined the track though.


 

 Definitely ruined it. If that had been what I experienced I would have gone in search of museums


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. Your One Night in Bangkok video is causing me to call it a night and go take a cold shower


----------



## UntilThen

What's da matter. It's a track to test the bass.


----------



## connieflyer

If I ever see my chess pieces move like that, I am going to rehab


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


>




Great planes. 


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNbQ7d0pD60[/VIDEO]

_Breathless_


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Great planes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great song and my hd650 is seriously good again. I missed the voluptuous sound.


----------



## mordy

Hi CF,
  
 Is this the one?


----------



## connieflyer

That's a Lochheed Constellation, civilian version. Ours were the wv2 Navy designation. Super G had 3400 shop engines Andre had tip tanks on the wings that held 300 gals of gasoline on each wing. Missions were between 14 and 18 hours watching for aircraft to warn our bombers the would have company and when. We also monitored the north's radio traffic for intelligence. That's why the north Koreans shot one ours done, because wewere listening on their military and government Intel. We had no weapons and flew solo flights, we relied. On fighters being scrambledin time to deter the enemy fighters. Didn't always work


----------



## DavidA

Hi guys, just had a 4 hours listening session with @doofalb and Elise, BH Crack, Liquid Carbon, ZOTL and Ember, didn't have time to hook up Lyr2.
  
 HD-800: Elise is the winner here, BH Crack a close second with biggest difference being the sound stage presentation better with Elise, tone better with BH Crack, Liquid Carbon not far behind
  
 HE-560: Liquid Carbon or ZOTL, then Ember with Elise last, Elise just too muddy with the HE-560
  
 HD-700: Liquid Carbon or Elise, others right behind, more of a preference thing here
  
 Ether C: ZOTL, Ember, Liquid Carbon, Elise
  
 EL8-open: Ember or Elise, Liquid Carbon not far behind
  
 HD-650: ZOTL or Liquid Carbon, BH Crack then Elise.  Between the BH Crack and Elise it comes down to tubes here but a bit behind the other 2
  
 TH-600: ZOTL or Liquid Carbon, didn't care for the Elise with these, Ember was actually better for TH-600
  
 TH-X00: same as the TH-600
  
 Ypsilon: great with any of the amps, just chose your preference
  
 some pictures

 While I didn't have the Liquid Glass on hand anymore to do direct comparisons, IMO it is a better amp more flexible amp than all of these but only because all of the headphones that I tried it with sound their best, it a great amp if you only have one.  For the price of the Liquid Glass you can have the Elise, ZOTL, BH Crack, Ember and Liquid Carbon with some change to buy tubes.
  
 J, thanks for lugging all the gear over


----------



## Lorspeaker

untilthen said:


> Thanks for telling ALL and I can imagine one night in Bangkok to be really tough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yawnzzz....whats bouncing n heaving in the middle of the nite in bkk..


----------



## DecentLevi

davida said:


> Hi guys, just had a 4 hours listening session with @doofalb and Elise, BH Crack, Liquid Carbon, ZOTL and Ember, didn't have time to hook up Lyr2.
> 
> HD-800: Elise is the winner here, BH Crack a close second with biggest difference being the sound stage presentation better with Elise, tone better with BH Crack, Liquid Carbon not far behind
> 
> ...


 
 Hey hellow Head-Fi'er David... just a few quick thoughts
  
  
 First & foremost, was the Elise burned in for long? And if only you could have used one of our recommended power/driver tubes in the Elise - it's one of those "this device can perform better" things.
  
 That does bring up a good point though - a higher caliber amp such as Elise doesn't always guarantee that it will make all headphones sing their best. I specifically remember (at least for me) that my ATH-R70X sounded better on my Liquid Carbon and DT-880 32-ohm sounded better on the little old Ember. I also didn't like the pairing with several pairs/variants of TH-X00 with the Elise. But in my extensive testing, the HD-650 pairs astronomically better with the Elise than with the LC. Synergy is important, and making sense of it can take a very long time.
  
 Also funny thing - I recently turned down a chance to extensively autition / compare a Liquid Glass to the Elise because the meeting point was 2 hours away and IMO the Liquid Glass is a bit on the ugly side. Would you have any words on how it compares with other TOTL tube amps such as WA22 or Zana Deux, etc.?


----------



## UntilThen

lorspeaker said:


> Yawnzzz....whats bouncing n heaving in the middle of the nite in bkk..




Gym class


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> Hi guys, just had a 4 hours listening session with @doofalb and Elise, BH Crack, Liquid Carbon, ZOTL and Ember, didn't have time to hook up Lyr2.
> 
> HD-800: Elise is the winner here, BH Crack a close second with biggest difference being the sound stage presentation better with Elise, tone better with BH Crack, Liquid Carbon not far behind
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for that very interesting comparison. What amazes me is how Ember compares quite favourably with much more expensive amps. 
  
 A couple of questions:
  
 Did you tube roll Elise and Ember or did you stick to stock tubes? I can't make out the tube in Ember from the photo-it doesn't look like the stock 6N6P that came with mine.
  
 What's Ypsilon? I did a web search and only came up with a Grado driver.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## DavidA

Quote:


decentlevi said:


> Hey hellow Head-Fi'er David... just a few quick thoughts
> 
> 
> First & foremost, was the Elise burned in for long? And if only you could have used one of our recommended power/driver tubes in the Elise - it's one of those "this device can perform better" things.
> ...


 
 Need to ask @doofalb about how long it was burned-in, might be quite long since he was leaving it on in his office for a few weeks.  Only had the stock tubes and I know it can perform better as I've found out with my BH Crack, Lyr2 and Ember.  The HD-650/Elise pairing was just too warm for both Johann and I, we both took a quick listen and agree that its not something either of us liked, same with the HE-560, so much better all around on the LC or ZOTL.
  
 I'm finding synergy to be important as you noticed and the only way is to try it for your self or if you're lucky someone with similar hearing and sonic preferences can get you on the right track.
  
 The Liquid Glass is actually quite nice looking IMO, not as nice as the WA7, but to each his own on this.  When I was in Japan last year for my good friend's daughter's wedding I did get to hear the EC Balancing Act, ZDS, Liquid Gold, Liquid Glass, MHA-100, WA22, WA2, WES (e-stat), WA7d, Mainline (highly modded from what I could see), Hugo TT, Master 11, Dark Star, HDVD800, Red Wine Isabellina, and Rag all in the same room.  My good friend Tomo had a few of his other friends bring over their gear so it was all in his custom designed and built sound room which is used mostly for speaker systems but he has a partitioned off area in the back where he has is headphone gear, really nice counter and shelves and quite large, but best feature of the sound room is a fully stocked 450 bottle wine cabinet which we drank quite a few while listening to tunes.
  
 While I did spend time with all of the gear, most was with the Liquid Gold, Red Wine Isabellina and EC Balancing Act, to me these stood out from the rest in that they made any headphone sound good while some of the other were great with some headphones and okay with others.  Note: The tube amps were running really nice high end tubes like WE421a, TS5998, and other holy grail stuff.  (the memory card in my phone that had all the pictures crapped out so I lost all the pictures of the wedding, golf, dinners and the audio gear, learned my lesson there) 
  
 If my friend said I can have any one of these amps the Liquid Gold would be my first choice, Hugo TT second, Red Wine Isabellina third.  The reason for the Hugo TT is the DAC section is really good and it drives almost all headphones that I have really well.  Not to much of a stretch since he already gave me his spare SR-009/SRM-007.
  
 Quote:


howie13 said:


> Thanks for that very interesting comparison. What amazes me is how Ember compares quite favourably with much more expensive amps.
> 
> A couple of questions:
> 
> ...


 
 Unfortunately we didn't get to roll tubes in any of the amps.  The tube in the Ember is a Telefunken 12AU7, one of 3 that I have.  The ability to change the output impedance on the Ember makes it more flexible than most amps and I think this is part of the damping factor / synergy thing that makes some amp/headphone pairings magical.
  
 The Ypsilon is a driver designed to fit a Grado wood cup:

 The Ypsilon is a very impressive driver, once I built the first one my HD-600 was history and even my HD-650 gets almost no head time.  I would consider these way above a HD-650, more extended in both directions, clean tight bass (HD-700/HE-560 like), smooth clear highs like a RS2e, and mids better than a HD-650.  They are easy to drive but not as forgiving as the HD-650 and for some the comfort will be an issue but with the large G pads I've been able to use them for 8 hours at a time, no sweat since the pad breathe well, and they are very light.  Not cheap to build, parts run about $350-400 to build a pair but to some they are preferred over the HD-800, Ether/Ether C, HD-600/650, LCD-2/3, and TH-900.


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA Nicely thought out review. With that many amps it must have almost been a chore to go though all of them in one sitting.  Of course the 450 bottles of wine, seems to have helped your impressions and staying power. I admire a man that can do all that listening to high end equipment and drink up lots of high grade wine, just so us lowly souls can get an idea of Utopia! Such a sacrifice! Your stature as a god is growing all the time. I am sure that your host did not serve you any Nikki Hi, which is what I was used to while in Japan in the '60's, it was one grade above lighter fluid, but it got the job done. Hang overs where rather severe as I remember. Thank you for putting all of this in one place, and sharing it. Appreciated, I have to agree with you that the Liquid Glass is a decent looking amp, and besides, when it works on that level, you get to appreciate the looks all the more.  Many women have said that after they put a bag over my head, they began to appreciate the level of performance all the more!  Well done.


----------



## pctazhp

The countless sources of human pleasure discussed on this thread is indeed mind boggling - not the least of which are provided to us by @DavidA ))) Nice review David. Thanks
  
 I should ask pardon for typos in my posts. It's not easy seeing out of the bag I wear on my head throughout the day


----------



## connieflyer

LMAO @pctazhp! Good one!


----------



## pctazhp

On rare occasions I'm inspired to contribute something of value to this thread. Still recovering from A Night in Bangkok, I'm suddenly driven to report I have been enjoying the Sylvania 6S7GWGT/TS5998 combo a lot. Lots of good combos for Elise.
  
 So now I have done my good deed for the month


----------



## connieflyer

I have a similar setup now. Using theTS 5998's and K-R VT-231's and very nice indeed


----------



## DavidA

@connieflyer, I spent 8 days in that sound room, 6-10 hours a day, drank way too much but I think all the wine, sake, and vodka while listening helped me to relax and just enjoy my time with my good friend Tomo, his wife and daughter (not the one who got married), no judging of better or worse until after I got back to Hawaii with the SR-009/SRM-007 that he gave to me.  Its when the light bulb went off in my head (more like I sobered up) that I realized that I liked the sound from those amp with the various headphones more than I liked the sound from the SR-009/SRM-007.
  
 I've never heard of Nikki Hi but there is a Nikka whisky which is quite good I'm told.
  
 I still see a possible scenario where might get a Elise down the road, with the HD-800, HD-700 and I'm going to assume my T1 the Elise is hard to beat for the price and I like the way it looks on the table top, a little Darth Vader like.  (RIP Carrie Fisher)
  
 But for my planars I still need to find the amp, the Liquid Carbon is good but after hearing the Hugo it can do double duty as DAC and amp, and be portable if the need arises.
  
 PS: are you getting up or going to sleep?  I just got home and needed to clean up after drinking and eating with doofalb this afternoon, left the kitchen in a mess to go out with the girls.


----------



## connieflyer

Usually don't sleep much anymore, so have been up and at it for about four hours. I have the Senn 800 with the Elise and love it. Great synergy lots of detail and enjoyment, which to me is the most important.  I had the T1's and liked them very much, but found them to be just a little (very) lacking in detail and sound stage. The left driver gave up the ghost, so replaced them with the 800 and very glad I did. I had been looking to get another T1, but will now fund the new Elise when released.  @hypnos1 excitement over the new amp is infectious, he is not one to use hyperbole so am taking him at his word. As far as the Nikki Hi is concerned you would have to go down to the Ginza, way off the main grid. Did get to try some very good Saki at my land lords home.  Used to pay the rent in Yokohama at a monthly dinner with some of his friends, and then after dinner have saki and talk, always brought him a bottle of Johhny Walker Black Label from the base exchange. Sometimes Red Label if all they had. The boys like it.


----------



## Oskari

Apparently there is a shortage of Nikka.



 http://www.nonjatta.com/2015/06/The-Nikka-Shock.html


----------



## DavidA

I'm going to hope many of you "upgrade" to the new Elise so I can buy your old one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The Ginza area is full of night clubs, hostess bars, strip clubs and what not, its not considered off the main grid anymore, a very expensive place to hang out from what I've seen.  Tomo and his friend Hisashi spent $15,000 in one night out at just two private hostess clubs that they took me to, granted we were drinking Johnny Walker Blue, Louie XIII, Crystal and Krug champagne which is what the hostesses were also drinking.  The Blue and XIII really got me drunk since they are not my usual choice but the champagne is okay.  I'm a wine and beer guy at heart.


----------



## connieflyer

I am in line for a new Elise, so won't be too long now I hope.  Things have changed there quite a bit I am sure.  Left a lot of things at the local pawn shop.  It helped finance many a drunken stupor!  Exchange rate back then was 360 Yen to a Dollar. No where's near that now. The Yen I brought home will probably finance my plane ticket back to Hawaii this year, if all goes well. Going to make a tour of Hawaii , Australia and New Zealand and then over to England and Scotland if there is time left. I drink a lot less and confine it to wine and a little scotch. Like to stay in control more now.


----------



## hypnos1

OK guys, time for the next instalment on the new amp update...and a brief respite from all this frivolity - anyone would think it's some kind of holiday season lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....Either that, or a conspiracy to keep Feliks-Audio threads at the top of the list...not to mention raising @UntilThen's status from _demi_-god to _full-blown!!!_




  
 But first, I must congratulate @DavidA on his mammoth effort...and a very interesting one...WELL DONE!...(but of course y'all know what I'm going to say...but I won't say it lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
 I was very heartened to see Elise come out on top with the HD800 - I suspect the same may well have been the case with the T1s! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It is indeed a great shame that only stock tubes were used...Elise raises her game considerably with better ones. And I can fully understand the comments on pairing with the 650s - far too "cosy"; warm (for me also); soft etc.etc....ie. just too flat, uninvolving and low in the excitement stakes (and that's with an ESS Sabre-based DAC...goodness knows how much more so it would be with a less energetic DAC LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...._especially_ when following straight on from the T1s! Colour me _*very*_ unimpressed, I'm afraid...(but they do perform better with the MKII, however...as below...). I'm sure the 650 mods - as UT says - can make quite a difference, so must try it some day..._perhaps!_
  
 Anyway, on to more of my wanton taunting...(sorry @pctazhp, but what wicked joy could I get from sprouting endlessly on a new thread lol?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...should I be _naughty_ or _nice_?...methinks @Oskari should answer that one on my behalf...unless the leak has finally turned into a total dambust job!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Well, as I suspected (and should have known better!), putting a good few more hours on the stock tubes has redeemed them...to a degree, at least. Through the T1s, things have opened up nicely, with much better separation, extension, detail, and balanced soundstage. Their initial (lack of!) ability to handle the amp's increased dynamics has, thankfully, improved greatly...and together with the other factors mentioned now belie the humble status of the Russian tubes. They really are, in fact, quite good!  HOWEVER, they still come nowhere near my old, mesh-plate Valvo EL11s. The tonal range especially just cannot compare alas, along with scintillating micro-detail/transient handling.
  
 And how are they with the 650s?....much better overall than in the MKI (for _me_ and my gear, anyway). But once again, they just don't come anywhere near the T1s IMHO. I get no real sense of 3D "Holographic" presentation, especially with the kind of wonderfully haunting sound as in Loreena McKennitt's "Beneath a Phrygian Sky"...if I don't get goosebumps, I just don't want to know, I'm afraid!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. Even with stocks, my T1s give me _some_ at least. With my best tubes, the differences between these cans are even more noticeable in the new amp...as I have already intimated, this MKII does things to (and _for!_) the T1s that I'm sure Beyer could only dream of in their R&D department!!
  
 And so now, encouraged by the improvement in stock tube delivery, methinks I'll try my PsVane CV181TII drivers with a pair of Chatham 6AS7Gs. I'm actually looking forward to this trial almost more than any other, because I firmly suspect that both these tubes do in fact have far more potential than is usually experienced by many other users...I'm sure what they really need is a more powerful dynamic feed to perform to their best...and so time will tell...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I shall now let y'all have a bit of a rest...and a return to the frivolity, perhaps?...I sure hope so...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




CJ


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> I am in line for a new Elise, so won't be too long now I hope.  Things have changed there quite a bit I am sure.  Left a lot of things at the local pawn shop.  It helped finance many a drunken stupor!  Exchange rate back then was 360 Yen to a Dollar. No where's near that now. The Yen I brought home will probably finance my plane ticket back to Hawaii this year, if all goes well. Going to make a tour of Hawaii , Australia and New Zealand and then over to England and Scotland if there is time left. I drink a lot less and confine it to wine and a little scotch. Like to stay in control more now.


 
 Let me know if you get to Hawaii, would love to have you over for a little wine and food.
  
 I found 300,000 Yen in my mom's hidden cabinet when i was cleaning up the house after she passed, I remember her getting this for my grandmother who wanted to go and visit Japan and see her twin sister which she had not seen in over 65 years since she came to Hawaii with her husband, this was back in 74 or 75 when the exchange rate was about 360 IIRC.


----------



## connieflyer

Most gracious of you and will of course avail myself of your hospitality. I think that the yen value now 2550.80 US, quite a drop. All the best


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1 This is for you


----------



## connieflyer

I will now go do what ever it is I do and leave you with an all time favorite of mine, Mark Knopler from the Princess Bridge soundtrack I will never love again


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Anyway, on to more of my wanton taunting...(sorry @pctazhp, but what wicked joy could I get from sprouting endlessly on a new thread lol?!!! :evil: ...should I be _naughty_ or _nice_?...methinks @Oskari should answer that one on my behalf...unless the leak has finally turned into a total dambust job!! :confused_face:




I'll be fully supportive of your decision.  The leak has subsided (to its usual level, anyway).


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1 This is for you




  
 Hmmmm, pct....don't know whether to laugh....or _*cry*_ lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(actually, I'm beginning to feel more like _*Mephistopheles*_ by the day - if not the _hour_, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







). Perhaps I am indeed leading folks up the proverbial "garden path"...I know this darned new amp is _me!_- after just 5 mins of my next combo (ie. the PsVanes/Chathams), these flamin' 650s are sounding like I never heard them before...let alone the tubes themselves. If the PsVane 6SN7s are anything like these CV181TIIs, then they won't be a bad affordable option for those who may not want to enter EL3N/EL11 territory...and the Chatham (or TungSol/Chatham) powers do come along from time to time - already they are sounding a good bit meatier than before! Can't wait to have a longer session tonight... with the T1s!!
  
 ps. I believe Lukasz thought the PsVane 6SN7s almost an even better match for Elise than the (much!) more expensive CV181TIIs lol!
  


oskari said:


> *I'll be fully supportive of your decision. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad to hear about the leak, O..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now then, mon ami, what I'm looking for here is more _*Viking*_-like direction...I need to be _*told*_ what to do - wise guidance lets you off the hook too easily lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(But perhaps there weren't too many of the raping/pillaging types in your neck of the woods?!...would appreciate further enlightenment...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).


----------



## UntilThen

I think David and doofalb had ball of a time amp and headphone rolling.

Thanks for sharing your impressions but as is often the case, opinions differ when it comes to such wide range of gear.

I know that aqsw much prefers his Ether C with Elise than LC. 

Holidays over for me. It's time to work again. Take care have fun.

Ps... H1 great to hear the CV181 T11 and Chatham 6as7g sounded good in your Elise Mk2.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Speaking about Vikings, here is a joke I heard growing up in the land of the Vikings:
  
 Once a year, at holiday time, the Vikings would take a bath, whether they needed it or not.....


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> I need to be _*told*_ what to do




Well, in that case:

You will be nice _and_ naughty *and* you will start a new thread when the time is right!

It will be a benefit, not so much for the old crowd but for newcomers.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Speaking about Vikings, here is a joke I heard growing up in the land of the Vikings:
> 
> *Once a year*, at holiday time, the *Vikings would take a bath,* whether they needed it or not.....


 
  
 And there was I thinking I could rely on _sensible__?_ Viking advice/instruction lol!...two _days_ and I feel I need to be fumigated!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...but then, I'm sure I have some rather delicate Louis XIII blood in my veins...or could that be some of @DavidA's friend's Remy Martin?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 However, looks like Oskari has saved the Viking reputation...as per below...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





oskari said:


> Well, in that case:
> 
> You will be nice _and_ naughty *and* you will start a new thread when the time is right!
> 
> It will be a benefit, not so much for the old crowd but for newcomers.


 
  
 Aha Oskari...I knew I could rely on you to be both bold AND wise...you speak, I follow..._*now*_ who's the Pied Piper lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And thanks @UntilThen for your words of encouragement also...don't work too hard - we need you back here all in one piece, don't forget!


----------



## connieflyer

A little news from our good friends at Feliks Audio.  Lukasz's email to me stated......
 We're considering the upgrade option, but given the number of changes and their complexity, not even to mention shipping cost for American customers, it may be difficult. Again, first days of January i expect formal announcement on our website.
  
 Pricing is still being considered and the official announcement of the product will be in January on their website.  They are planning to start shipments about February so it won't be long now. The price will be quite a bit of an increase over Elise 1 but from what I have read it will be worth while.
  
 This information came directly from Lukasz in emails to me, so this is not a guess this is for real folks.  Best of luck to them on the new release and hoping for a good place in line!


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> A little news from our good friends at Feliks Audio.  Lukasz's email to me stated......
> We're considering the upgrade option, but given the number of changes and their complexity, not even to mention shipping cost for American customers, it may be difficult. Again, first days of January i expect formal announcement on our website.
> 
> Pricing is still being considered and the official announcement of the product will be in January on their website.  They are planning to start shipments about February so it won't be long now. The price will be quite a bit of an increase over Elise 1 but from what I have read it will be worth while.
> ...


 
  
 GREAT NEWS cf...nice to have that final confirmation of go-ahead...(thankfully there was never any real doubt in my own mind lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I'm really looking forward to having some company...(think I can remember saying that self same thing 2 years ago! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Looks like I'd better get preparing for yet another new Elise thread...is there a limit here at head-fi.org I wonder?!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 But for now I need to hear what the PsVane/Chatham combo sounds like...properly, that is!...(if I can keep my eyes open...). Will update y'all tomorrow...BFN


----------



## connieflyer

Just to make sure, Lukasz gave me permission to release this info. So I am not stepping on anyones toes


----------



## pctazhp

The older I get, the more I dislike news of someone's passing. Even though I was a Star Wars fan in the early days, I wasn't uniquely impacted by Carrie Fisher's death.
  
 But one of the first female movie stars I remember from my childhood was Debbie Reynolds. With her passing a day following her daughter's death, I feel I have lost just a little slice of my childhood. I dedicate this to both Carrie and Debbie:


----------



## Spork67

No tubes - but it does have a spout. Belated xmas present to self.


----------



## DavidA

Speaking of brews, I'm looking for a little advice on scotch from all of the cultured inhabitants of this fine thread.  I'm looking for a decent bottle or 2 of scotch for one of my best friends who will be staying over for a few days.  Price should be under $250 per bottle, but under $100 would be even better, LOL.


----------



## Spork67

davida said:


> Speaking of brews, I'm looking for a little advice on scotch from all of the cultured inhabitants of this fine thread.  I'm looking for a decent bottle or 2 of scotch for one of my best friends who will be staying over for a few days.  Price should be under $250 per bottle, but under $100 would be even better, LOL.


 
 Price is AUD, so closer to $200 USD https://sullivanscove.com/product/tasmanian-collection-single-cask-td0776/
 Oops - out of stock, as is their Blue lable ($450 / bottle...) This one is also very nice, cheaper, and In Stock: https://sullivanscove.com/product/sullivans-cove-double-cask/
 It's possibly something your friend hasn't already tried.


----------



## angpsi

davida said:


> Speaking of brews, I'm looking for a little advice on scotch from all of the cultured inhabitants of this fine thread.  I'm looking for a decent bottle or 2 of scotch for one of my best friends who will be staying over for a few days.  Price should be under $250 per bottle, but under $100 would be even better, LOL.


 
  
  


spork67 said:


> Price is AUD, so closer to $200 USD https://sullivanscove.com/product/tasmanian-collection-single-cask-td0776/
> Oops - out of stock, as is their Blue lable ($450 / bottle...) This one is also very nice, cheaper, and In Stock: https://sullivanscove.com/product/sullivans-cove-double-cask/
> It's possibly something your friend hasn't already tried.


 

 Maybe not as cultivated on the subject, but this is imho a low to mid-fi best! https://www.masterofmalt.com/whiskies/nikka-from-the-barrel-whisky/


----------



## DavidA

@angpsi, thanks for the recommendations, the Nikka was talked about a page or to ago and how the company is changing the production so there is a shortage.
  
@Spork67, I have a JW Blue, I just don't drink it LOL.  I'm a vodka, wine and beer person, that's why my best friend has one of my Louie XIII bottles and an ex-GF has the other, also gave her 2 bottles each of RM XO, Hennessy XO, and Cordon Bleu (spelling?) which I got as presents over the years.
  
 Keep the suggestion coming, plan to go to Tamura's Liquor on Friday to stock up.
  
 David A


----------



## connieflyer

Have been using the K-R vt-231 tubes as drivers and TS 5998 as powers with Senn 800 and find this is a very good combo.  The bass increase from the K-R's is very obvious. A full rich sound with the treble being a little more recessed compared to C3G's, glad I saved these tubes instead of selling off. Had not used these together before. Like what I hear.


----------



## hypnos1

davida said:


> @angpsi, thanks for the recommendations, the Nikka was talked about a page or to ago and how the company is changing the production so there is a shortage.
> 
> @Spork67, I have a JW Blue, I just don't drink it LOL.  I'm a vodka, wine and beer person, that's why my best friend has one of my Louie XIII bottles and an ex-GF has the other, also gave her 2 bottles each of RM XO, Hennessy XO, and Cordon Bleu (spelling?) which I got as presents over the years.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmmmm, DA....Hennessy XO as well as the Louis XIII?...am definitely saving up for a trip to Hawaii lol!!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> A little news from our good friends at Feliks Audio.  Lukasz's email to me stated......
> We're considering the upgrade option, but given the number of changes and their complexity, not even to mention shipping cost for American customers, it may be difficult. Again, first days of January i expect formal announcement on our website.
> 
> Pricing is still being considered and the official announcement of the product will be in January on their website.  They are planning to start shipments about February so it won't be long now. The price will be quite a bit of an increase over Elise 1 but from what I have read it will be worth while.
> ...


 

 CF:  Thanks for the update. 2017 could prove to be an interesting year for our Elise tribe.
  
 I understand the issues involved with an update path, but it could simplify my life a little. In a few months I expect to be a European customer. So I'll be shipping to Europe anyway unless I could sell my Elise before I move, which could prove to be difficult. Maybe because I'm such a wonderful, kind, loving, handsome and deserving human being, Lukasz will make a special exception for me.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Have been using the K-R vt-231 tubes as drivers and TS 5998 as powers with Senn 800 and find this is a very good combo.  The bass increase from the K-R's is very obvious. A full rich sound with the treble being a little more recessed compared to C3G's, glad I saved these tubes instead of selling off. Had not used these together before. Like what I hear.


 

 I'm still using my Sylvania/5998 combo and enjoying it a lot )))


----------



## Oskari

davida said:


> Speaking of brews, I'm looking for a little advice on scotch from all of the cultured inhabitants of this fine thread.  I'm looking for a decent bottle or 2 of scotch for one of my best friends who will be staying over for a few days.  Price should be under $250 per bottle, but under $100 would be even better, LOL.




My price point is lower, 50 or so, so I don't know much about the pricier stuff. I tend to prefer my Scotch peaty and smoky, which, I realize, is not for everybody. These I know will work for me: Talisker 10, Laphroaig 10, Caol Ila 12, Oban 14, Lagavulin 16. Talisker is the gold standard. The list includes Islay, Island and Highland whiskies. I would like to try some Campbeltown whiskies if I could get them easily.




angpsi said:


> Maybe not as cultivated on the subject, but this is imho a low to mid-fi best! https://www.masterofmalt.com/whiskies/nikka-from-the-barrel-whisky/




I usually check the reviews on that site if I want to try something new.


----------



## connieflyer

pctazhp said:


> CF:  Thanks for the update. 2017 could prove to be an interesting year for our Elise tribe.
> 
> I understand the issues involved with an update path, but it could simplify my life a little. In a few months I expect to be a European customer. So I'll be shipping to Europe anyway unless I could sell my Elise before I move, which could prove to be difficult. Maybe because I'm such a wonderful, kind, loving, handsome and deserving human being, Lukasz will make a special exception for me.


 

 I don't think you should have much trouble selling your Elise before you go, worth a try anyways.  And the price for the Elise will probably be going up in January so it makes it even more of a good deal for someone. I was surprised using the 5998 and vt231's how good it sounds.  I will have to try a couple of Sylvania's and see what the difference would be. And I am sure that for such a classy guy, surely Lukasz would make an exception for you!


----------



## connieflyer

You have to figure it would cost about $150 for round trip shipping or there abouts,then add in all the labor and new parts, and time to disassemble the old amp, plus, how much could you warranty?  Just the new parts or the whole amp. It would not seem fair to try to extend the warranty on the whole amp, when they would not know the condition of how it had been used or abused. Personally, I would hazard a guess and think it would be purchasing a new amp.  I would not want to spend the extra for shipping and the time involved to have my current amp upgraded. Of course everyone will have a different take on this, but I would want to know that spending on a new amp, would get you back to square one as far as the warranty and making sure all components have been tested as a whole. Don't have a clue as to the new price, but @hypnos1 does not seem to be one that over emphasizes  what he is hearing. I was quite surprised when his review was soooo positive. I expected it to be better given the parts involved, but his exhortations certainly seem genuine and heartfelt. If he would have said it sounds a little better than the original, an upgrade to be sure, but he is saying huge difference and I for one take him at his word. So if the price doesn't involve me selling the house, car and dog I am in.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I don't think you should have much trouble selling your Elise before you go, worth a try anyways.  And the price for the Elise will probably be going up in January so it makes it even more of a good deal for someone. I was surprised using the 5998 and vt231's how good it sounds.  I will have to try a couple of Sylvania's and see what the difference would be. *And I am sure that for such a classy guy, surely Lukasz would make an exception for you!*


 
 You have exquisite taste in people


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Have been using the K-R vt-231 tubes as drivers and TS 5998 as powers with Senn 800 and find this is a very good combo.  The bass increase from the K-R's is very obvious. *A full rich sound* with the treble being a little more recessed compared to C3G's, glad I saved these tubes instead of selling off. Had not used these together before. Like what I hear.


 
  
 Well, cf...all I can say is be prepared to have your head blown off when you get your new amp - (don't say I didn't warn you lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 And just one of the reasons being what I've literally this minute been reminded of when assessing gear...tubes especially!...ie. _*NO WAY*_ can proper, accurate results be obtained from hurried swapping!!...let me explain  :  Last night, after a day of warming up the PsVane CV181TII/Chatham 6AS7G combo (all 4 tubes already well burned in with Elise MKI), I was slightly disappointed with the sound - it was very good, but as I mentioned before, I was expecting/hoping for rather more...ie. a fuller, richer, more dynamic presentation than normally associated with both these tubes. However, it was still rather on the 'light' side for my liking.
  
 Anyway, with another 6 hrs' playing today, I was taken aback by the 'sudden' difference...much more the kind of sound I was hoping for...the sort of improvement one would normally expect from burning in _new_ tubes lol!... Veeery interesting...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I could so easily have settled for my impressions that first night, and am so glad I didn't - the conclusion would have been totally false!! (I think I can safely rule out this being down to amp burn-in, given it has already had extensive time on the test bench, let alone with me!).
  
*Therefore, this would indicate that at least two days per EACH tube trialling are needed so as not to be severely misled LOL*! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 So, just what do I think of this particular combo?..._very impressive indeed!_...for the reasons already mentioned. Getting somewhat nearer to my 'ultimate' setup, in fact...but only _close_..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...a tad rougher round the edges, with not quite the same exquisite tonal range, micro-detail and smoothly impeccable control. But hey, they're up against _really_ tough competition here, which isn't really fair lol!!... these tubes did NOT sound this impressive on my MKI...
  
 Now, this was all while feeding my T1s...for @DecentLevi and anyone else interested, the 650s weren't able to do quite such good justice however, although still better here than with MKI. And which is beginning to reinforce my suspicion that, as with tubes, this new amp just screams out for the *very* best gear you can partner it with...to the point where I shall be sorely tempted to look into DSD territory, and ssshhhh...even a review of my stance on the Focal Utopias!! (but only if the price comes down somewhat lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Before I go - have now got my EL3Ns in place of the PsVanes (should also be VERY interesting!) - I just want to make one final observation on the 650s. On_ first_ listen with certain bass-heavy tracks, I *thought *I was getting more 'juice' than with the T1s....but on closer inspection, I think I can safely say _*it's all an illusion!!*_ When going back to the Beyers, it was quite obvious just what's happening here...the 650s are *blending* together different bass frequencies/tones, and from different instruments, giving the *appearance* of heavier bass _*quantity*_ lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I hadn't fully noticed this before now but here, especially with this amp's impressive resolution, the T1s have blown the 650's cover...the Beyers only _seem_ a tad lighter because they are in fact _*separating*_  and presenting those different tones, rather than adding them together!  And closer examination still, highlights to just how great a degree this is in fact taking place...I was (unpleasantly!) astounded. I can only hope that the 650 mods go some way to addressing this issue, but I suspect they can only help to a certain degree...this is something that may well warrant further close inspection by 650 owners lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, enough diatribe for now (once more!)...time for tea...BFN...(I hear the EL3Ns calling!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## connieflyer

I agree you can not just insert a tube listen for a short time and replace them and cycle through to get an accurate idea of what you are hearing.  I agree also about the 650's having had two pair over the years, they sound very nice, but the upper and lower registers is just not there. Clarity was sacrificed for the mid range vocals, and they do sound good there. Comfortably phones but after the 700,  I began to wonder, and now for six months with the 800, the presentation of the audio spectrum is indeed so much better. And they have to be the most comfortable phones I have ever tried.  Large earcups, and light weight, listen for hours. How did you like PsVane CV181TII/Chatham 6AS7G combo?  Checked them out on ebay and still a little pricey, but not as bad as some.  Good listening, and keep the reviews coming, makes it hard on me!


----------



## angpsi

oskari said:


> My price point is lower, 50 or so, so I don't know much about the pricier stuff. I tend to prefer my Scotch peaty and smoky, which, I realize, is not for everybody. These I know will work for me: Talisker 10, Laphroaig 10, Caol Ila 12, Oban 14, Lagavulin 16. Talisker is the gold standard. The list includes Islay, Island and Highland whiskies. I would like to try some Campbeltown whiskies if I could get them easily.
> I usually check the reviews on that site if I want to try something new.


 Wow @Oskari, we couldn't have more similar taste in scotch than this! Indeed this is not an uber exotic list, but it's definitely stuff for a very enjoyable session!


----------



## pctazhp

Seeing that this has become an alcoholic's alcohol aficionados thread, and knowing we all strongly believe in "synergy", I would like to recommend the following as the perfect compliment to my beloved Boone's Farm Strawberry wine:


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> Seeing that this has become an alcoholic's alcohol aficionados thread, and knowing we all strongly believe in "synergy", I would like to recommend the following as the perfect compliment to my beloved Boone's Farm Strawberry wine:




 What is your recommendation with this? 



We need UT and H1 to keep us focused.


----------



## Spork67

oskari said:


> pctazhp said:
> 
> 
> > Seeing that this has become an alcoholic's alcohol aficionados thread, and knowing we all strongly believe in "synergy", I would like to recommend the following as the perfect compliment to my beloved Boone's Farm Strawberry wine:
> ...


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Wow @Oskari, we couldn't have more similar taste in scotch than this! Indeed this is not an uber exotic list, but it's definitely stuff for a very enjoyable session!




 You could also get whisky which tastes like brandy, but what would be the point of that?

I seem to have caught something and it's not a fish. Caol Ila, I suspect, is as good as any cough medicine. Some would say that it tastes like medicine anyway. :rolleyes:


----------



## Oskari

Here's the photo.


----------



## DecentLevi

@hypnos1 I have a strong hunch that your HD 650 can scale to greater heights with that upgraded Elise, with an OCC silver plated copper cable. I had upgraded my SoundMagic HP-150 with such a cable and had gotten a major increase in overall resolution...increased bass definition / layering, clarity and overall vividness / performance, used with my Elise v1, both of which headphones have similar impedance and vaguely similar sound flavor, so I recon it would also make a big difference on the 650 with the Elise. And a slight touch brighter, which may make the signature more similar to your T1.
  
 Not to cast a shadow on your T1 pairing, but I myself am a bit unsure of the T1. The 1-2 systems I've tried them with (not yet on Elise) revealed a very bright / thin sound, and being the same basic outer design as the DT-880's which soundstage was barely-there for me all the years I've owned them, I would be gobsmacked if it were to be able to have a holographic soundstage with the T1. Don't get me wrong I would love to hear the T1 pairing with your upgraded Elise, but that and the fact that it's a smaller cup size and semi-closed design leave me to wonder if you still could get a bigger soundstage out of the HD-650 than the T1.
  
 Excuse the rushed order of this post, as I'm typing on a short work break.


----------



## Oskari

spork67 said:


>




Looks good! Unfortunately down under dairy stuff doesn't reach this far.


----------



## Spork67

That's a shame - this cheese is divine.
 I call it a "gateway cheese", as people who find most blue cheeses overpowering still enjoy this one.


----------



## Oskari

spork67 said:


> That's a shame - this cheese is divine.
> I call it a "gateway cheese", as people who find most blue cheeses overpowering still enjoy this one.


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> @hypnos1 I have a strong hunch that your HD 650 can scale to greater heights with that upgraded Elise, with an OCC silver plated copper cable. I had upgraded my SoundMagic HP-150 with such a cable and had gotten a major increase in overall resolution...increased bass definition / layering, clarity and overall vividness / performance, used with my Elise v1, both of which headphones have similar impedance and vaguely similar sound flavor, so I recon it would also make a big difference on the 650 with the Elise. And a slight touch brighter, which may make the signature more similar to your T1.
> 
> Not to cast a shadow on your T1 pairing, but I myself am a bit unsure of the T1. The 1-2 systems I've tried them with revealed a very bright / thin sound, and being the same basic outer design as the DT-880's which soundstage was bare-there for me all the years I've owned them, I would be gobsmacked if it were to be able to have a holographic soundstage. Don't get me wrong I would love to hear the T1 pairing with your upgraded Elise, but that and the fact that it's a smaller cup size and semi-closed design leave me to wonder if you still could get a bigger soundstage out of the HD-650 than the T1.
> 
> Excuse the rushed order of this post, as I'm typing on a short break.


 
 T1 and HD-650 are 2 different animals and FWIW the Double-Helix Molecule Elite SPC that my friend had on his HD-650 didn't make any sonic difference to he and I.  Its a hell of a beautiful cable and I would use it if I had his extra large money bag.  When I was in Japan last year I got to hear the T1 and HD-650 on his and a few of his friends TOTL DACs and amps and there is no comparing the T1 to the HD-650 for some genres like classical, blues and acoustic jazz but for other genres like rock, pop and most modern jazz the HD-650 would be a better choice, different horses for different courses.


----------



## DavidA

Thanks for all the scotch recommendations guys and sorry to have derailed the thread in to a food and drink mess but it seems that its not only headphones that a lot of us have in common.
  
@pctazhp if you need to sell your Elise before you move let me know, after hearing doofalb's Elise I think it would be a great replacement for my BH Crack and since I have some power tubes on hand its a great replacement since I can still use all my current tubes.
  
@hypnos1, let me know if you are going to be in Hawaii, I'll get the bottles of Louie XIII, Remy and Hennessy back from my ex for you to enjoy while you are here, as long as she hasn't drank it all by the time you get here.  I know that the Louie is about 3/4 full the last time I saw it 2 months ago and she only has one drink a year from it on New Years eve, no one else has had a drink from it.


----------



## Oskari

davida said:


> Thanks for all the scotch recommendations guys and sorry to have derailed the thread in to a food and drink mess but it seems that its not only headphones that a lot of us have in common.




I think that the thread can take it. 


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X28-olxweYk[/VIDEO]

_Never ever_


----------



## DavidA

@Oskari, nice suggestion, never really listened to All Saints before, off to Amazon if I can find my wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, need more music.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi folks, I'm back to torture you for the next 3 days. I see a lot of discussion on whisky. You're no doubt getting ready for a smashing New Year's Eve. Drink in moderation. Any excess just send to me.
  
 I see some discussions on T1 and HD650. Also using 6SN7 and 5998. When I'm ready I'll share my thoughts on T1 and modded HD650 with Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and 5998 in Elise. I'm listening to it now. It's lovely to chill with such wonderful tones after a hard day's work. Btw modded hd650 is at least 30% brighter, clearer than standard hd650.


----------



## Spork67

My Elise left me 3 weeks ago.
 Her new owner is very happy, and seems like a really nice guy, so is comforting to know she's gone to a good home.
 His favourite tube combination is also the same as mine was - EL3N and TS 5998s.
  
 My package from him finally arrived today (damn you Aust. Post).
 It's not Elise, but at least I have tubes again.


----------



## DavidA

@Spork67, nice trade if that is what you got for the Elise


----------



## Spork67

Elise and a bunch of tubes and adapters.
 I'm happy, and he's happy.
 And I can still enjoy Elise vicariously through this thread.


----------



## DavidA

spork67 said:


> Elise and a bunch of tubes and adapters.
> I'm happy, and he's happy.
> And I can still enjoy Elise vicariously through this thread.


 
 While my SRD-34 is really old its still a really good sounding headphone and my SR-009/SRM-007 is at the opposite end of the Stax line but they still share some traits between them.  I passed on my friends Liquid Glass to possibly get a SR-507 or SR-L500 and HD-800S and T1g2 and a second e-stat amp.
  
 Curious to know why you moved away from the Elsie to the Stax setup?


----------



## Spork67

Have replied via PM.
 I don't want to derail this thread too much. (although it already covers a wide range of topics!)


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> Thanks for all the scotch recommendations guys and sorry to have derailed the thread in to a food and drink mess but it seems that its not only headphones that a lot of us have in common.
> 
> *@pctazhp if you need to sell your Elise before you move let me know, after hearing doofalb's Elise I think it would be a great replacement for my BH Crack and since I have some power tubes on hand its a great replacement since I can still use all my current tubes.*
> 
> @hypnos1, let me know if you are going to be in Hawaii, I'll get the bottles of Louie XIII, Remy and Hennessy back from my ex for you to enjoy while you are here, as long as she hasn't drank it all by the time you get here.  I know that the Louie is about 3/4 full the last time I saw it 2 months ago and she only has one drink a year from it on New Years eve, no one else has had a drink from it.


 
 PM sent


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> @hypnos1 I have a strong hunch that your HD 650 can scale to greater heights with that upgraded Elise, with an OCC silver plated copper cable. I had upgraded my SoundMagic HP-150 with such a cable and had gotten a major increase in overall resolution...increased bass definition / layering, clarity and overall vividness / performance, used with my Elise v1, both of which headphones have similar impedance and vaguely similar sound flavor, so I recon it would also make a big difference on the 650 with the Elise. And a slight touch brighter, which may make the signature more similar to your T1.
> 
> Not to cast a shadow on your T1 pairing, but I myself am a bit unsure of the T1. The 1-2 systems I've tried them with (not yet on Elise) revealed a very bright / thin sound, and being the same basic outer design as the DT-880's which soundstage was barely-there for me all the years I've owned them, I would be gobsmacked if it were to be able to have a holographic soundstage with the T1. Don't get me wrong I would love to hear the T1 pairing with your upgraded Elise, but that and the fact that it's a smaller cup size and semi-closed design leave me to wonder if you still could get a bigger soundstage out of the HD-650 than the T1.
> 
> Excuse the rushed order of this post, as I'm typing on a short work break.


 
  
 Hi DL. I respect your own views on this subject, but sorry...as is tradition in hi-fi land, I fear we must agree to disagree. I simply do not recognise the points you mention re. the T1s...along with a good many others, no doubt. IMHO the 650s just come _*nowhere near*_ the T1s, either in simulating a 'holographic' soundstage or achieving pinpoint imaging, not to mention subtle reproduction of pure tones/harmonics and extremely accurate separation/placement of instruments and voice. Any 'bigger' soundstage would simply destroy the focus and intimacy of what my T1s are delivering..._*in my system, lol!!...*_(and this is precisely what I found with my LittleDot MKIV SE, even with _*pure silver*_ cable helping the 650s as much as I'm sure is ever possible!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). DavidA sums it up nicely below...
  


davida said:


> T1 and HD-650 are 2 different animals and FWIW the Double-Helix Molecule Elite SPC that my friend had on his HD-650 didn't make any sonic difference to he and I.  Its a hell of a beautiful cable and I would use it if I had his extra large money bag.  When I was in Japan last year I got to hear the T1 and HD-650 on his and a few of his friends TOTL DACs and amps and there is no comparing the T1 to the HD-650 for some genres like classical, blues and acoustic jazz but for other genres like rock, pop and most modern jazz the HD-650 would be a better choice, different horses for different courses.


 
  
 Agree with you entirely, DA...but I would also say that for me, _light_ 'rock' (eg ELO, Genesis etc.) also benefits greatly from the more subtle qualities that the T1s possess...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ps. Any more temptation to desert my better half for sips of nectar will surely get me in hotter territory than Kilauea lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...CHEERS anyway!!...


----------



## hypnos1

OK @Oskari...your wish is my command - back to focus...on...you know what lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Actually, I think I might as well make this my last missive on the new amp...until I start its dedicated thread, that is!!
  
 By now, I think I've managed to give a fairly broad idea of what Elise 'MKII' is about - further observations will probably only constitute fine tuning of different combos, which can only be a vague guide anyway, given the wide array of different tubes/gear/ears out there! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 But at least I hope folks have grasped the main point - that the new amp builds amply (sorry! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) on the strengths of MKI, addressing to perfection _any_ aspects that some may have found not _quite_ to their liking...and in a way that I still can't quite comprehend. Considering there haven't been _major_ changes, such as larger/much more expensive transformer; totally new/summit-fi $$$$$$ tube setup etc., the improvement in performance is all the more remarkable...(mind you, I'm sure poor Henryk Feliks would be the first to agree that much of the internal work _*has*_ indeed been a major enterprise LOL...to say the least!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







). To improve on this much further would, I'm sure, entail a _massive_ project, with accompanying massive price hike...the Law of D Rs kicking in BIG time, I suspect.
  
 However, I'm certain that whatever price (and _name!_) F-A finally announce for the MKII will in fact be very reasonable, given its performance...and, as with MKI, be well below anything else out there anywhere near its equal lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Before rounding off for now, though, I just want to update on the EL3N/Chatham combo...which has in fact opened my eyes to certain aspects of the wonderful driver in question  :  ie. the more powerful dynamics of MKII have finally given me a greater understanding of those few who (unfortunately) just don't get the same EL3N magic as many others do.
  
 Previously, we have made blanket statements such as 'synergy' with the rest of the gear, or simple personal preference, which are not really very specific/helpful lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Although what I'm about to say might not actually make it any easier to 'sort' the problem, hopefully it may just help _explain_ it a little more...  :
  
 I have always known the EL3N _usually_ gives a very powerful delivery_, _which for some is _overly_ powerful, and can seem a bit congested/bloated/unbalanced. Its slightly more 'forward' presentation can also sometimes exaggerate these aspects.
 Although I personally have always loved this presentation (fortunately, in my setup, without those negatives!), when I heard them here in MKII after the previous ('lighter') drivers, I was somewhat taken aback, and at first wasn't too sure about the sound...I suppose I was experiencing Glenn's 'shock' at hearing them in his own hi-end amp! _Powerful_ hardly covers it!!...and it took a good long while for my ears - and brain - to digest it properly. I can now understand how some may recoil at first hearing..._*given certain circumstances*_. And, rather than just blanket 'synergy' statements, these circumstances would appear to be anything in the chain that is _exaggerating_ this 'power' unduly...either upstream, or down. And especially if that exaggeration is not _perfectly balanced. _
  
 So, therefore, this could be anything from poor mains electricity supply/grounding/EMI, RFI issues etc., right through to heavily bass-biased headphones. But, of course, the 'worst-case scenario' for the EL3N would probably require either one _very_ prominent, major one of these issues, or a combination...the latter making it MUCH more difficult to trace and remedy of course. 
  
 In other words, I'm sure that in _most_ cases of disappointment with this tube, one might just be able to narrow down the culprit by closer inspection of stages that could possibly be affecting the *bass/lower mids* frequencies especially, as this would seem to me to be the main area that can disrupt the EL3N's performance...easier said than done, I know lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...But get it right, and one's efforts are repaid _*many*_ fold!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My next experiment is to see just how much different is the EL11 in this regard...from my initial sublime experience of the old, Black Glass mesh-plate Valvos, I suspect that these at least do indeed 'tame' that power somewhat (and do other wonderful things also! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







). And so I must see if other EL11s impart the same magic...(perhaps @HOWIE13 also will be able to shed light on the EL3N vs EL11 shootout in the MKI 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 CHEERS for now folks...and a *HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!*...


----------



## UntilThen

I was about to post this when @hypnos1 produce his impressions of EL3N on Elise Mk2. Great write up. I get some idea of the difference between EL3N and EL11 hearing your descriptions and @HOWIE13. I must say this isn't helping me to resist upgrading 'my' Elise. 
  
  
  
 Alright folks, it's headphone rolling time with UT. It's just T1 and modded HD650. I can't handle about 8 to 10 headphones at one go like David and doofalb did. That will kill my hearing sensors. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Tubes used in Elise are:-
 Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top
 Tung Sol 5998.
  
 DAC is the NAD d1050. 
  
 Music:-
 Flac files on my hard drive via JRiver Media Centre 22
 Tidal HiFi 
  
 Melody Gardot - Preacherman 
 Eagles - Hotel California
 Holly Cole - Hold On
 Justin Hayward - Forever Autumn
  
 Let's get the easy part out of the way first. Which headphone do I prefer? T1 without a doubt. T1 means Top One ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Some bullet points:-
 . T1's soundstage is second only to HD800. No matter how you scale the hd650, it's soundstage will never come close to T1.
 . T1 is definitely clearer and sounded a lot more detail than modded hd650. If you're a details freak (like me - surprisingly), you'll prefer T1.
 . T1 sounded more agile and has faster transient.
 . T1's treble is definitely more prominent. hd650 treble seems rounded off in comparison and doesn't extends as high.
 . Mids. This is where T1 seems more recessed - marginally. hd650 mids is more projected and fuller.
 . Bass - T1's bass is tight, taut and impactful. Like a skinny jeans. I like it. hd650 bass sounded nice too. There's more air and impactful, yet not bloated. I could live with both bass.
 . Now we consider the whole FR spectrum taken as a whole. When listening to the T1, highs and low are very audible, giving the impression that the mids are slightly recessed. When in fact, it is actually very linear to my ears. Listening to the T1, it's like the song, 'I can see clearly now that the rain is gone' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Listening to hd650 is like an invert 'U'. Such gorgeous mids with a tapering off of the highs and lows. It's very listenable though. You could listen to hd650 the whole day and yet still enjoy it.
  
 Both are my favourite headphones now. I'm refering to T1 G1 and modded HD650 by the way.
  
 Now on to frivolities and it's New Year's Eve !!!


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1  Happy New Year to you too H1-and everyone else!
  
 I don't really have anything more to add to #4131, p276, concerning the differences between the Telefunken EL11 and Philips EL3N tubes, but some others have adapters and tubes ordered so it's going to be interesting to learn how they find any differences.
  
 I also haven't had an opportunity to try any other brand of EL11, which might sound quite different to the Telefunkens. I've always liked the Philips EL3N's and the Telefunken EL11's are just a different flavour- more articulate and dynamic, slightly narrower, but more holographic soundstage, a bit less embracingly warm, but equally euphonic.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> My Elise left me 3 weeks ago.
> Her new owner is very happy, and seems like a really nice guy, so is comforting to know she's gone to a good home.
> *His favourite tube combination is also the same as mine was - EL3N and TS 5998s.*


 
  
 Another new comer that loves the EL3N and 5998 combo. Looks like my 'benchmark' writeup was not over the top. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/6000#post_12235306


----------



## UntilThen

Now to show you what I mean by 'I can see clearly now that the rain is gone' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 
  
 Maybe this version is more sexy


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp  and @connieflyer  and all veterans of Nam, this is for you.


----------



## UntilThen

Hey it's New Year's Eve. No more sad songs. Don't worry be happy.


----------



## connieflyer

After all these years first time I've ever heard that song had a nice beat to it, but so did propeller blades


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> @pctazhp  and @connieflyer  and all veterans of Nam, this is for you.





 By comparison, the technology used to record memories of that war seems downright primitive. US servicemen were only able to talk to their families back home because HAM radio operators like Arizona's Senator Barry Goldwater provided their powerful 40-meter band stations to rely signals from half way around the world into the telephone systems back here in the States. It all seems so long ago. Sadly, today the world seems even more barbaric.
  
 But yes. A new year is coming and we can celebrate our hopes with happy songs))))


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> By comparison, the technology used to record memories of that war seems downright primitive. US servicemen were only able to talk to their families back home because HAM radio operators like Arizona's Senator Barry Goldwater provided their powerful 40-meter band stations to rely signals from half way around the world into the telephone systems back here in the States. It all seems so long ago. Sadly, today the world seems even more barbaric.
> 
> But yes. A new year is coming and we can celebrate our hopes with happy songs))))


 
 You mean they don't have iPhone or Samsung Galaxy? Outrageous. Can't send the boys to wars without iPhone and at least a earbud.


----------



## connieflyer

And I would like to add one thing "Live long and prosper, PCT"


----------



## pctazhp

Sorry this is a repeat, but here's to HAPPY))))


----------



## UntilThen

Do you like Reggae?  If so listen to this


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Sorry this is a repeat, but here's to HAPPY))))


 
 Wait let me put on my Cowboy hat and boots... and I need a swig of whisky. This song is too potent.


----------



## connieflyer

Keep wearing them boots,never know what you might step in!


----------



## Spork67

Boots you say? 
 https://youtu.be/SbyAZQ45uww


----------



## UntilThen

Got my hat and boots on now and I can sing this
  
Well, I really don't mind the rain
And a smile can hide all the pain
But you're down when you're ridin' the train that's takin' the long way
And I dream of the things I'll do
With a subway token and a dollar tucked inside my shoe
There'll be a load of compromisin'
On the road to my horizon 
But I'm gonna be where the lights are shinin' on me


----------



## pctazhp

Glen Campbell??? So now you are going to bring in a real, authentic cowboy


----------



## connieflyer

What cowboy?  I thought Glen was an opera singer!  Oh right grand ole opry, got it!


----------



## UntilThen

No I love Neil Sedaka singing Oh! Elise


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> What cowboy?  I thought Glen was an opera singer!  Oh right grand ole opry, got it!


 

 Ok wise guy))))


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Ok wise guy))))


 
 By the time I get to Phoenix, I'll sing you this song Pct. 
  
 Strange, Glenn sings better when he's older.


----------



## pctazhp

OK. OK. We can forget Nashville!!!! New York is the world capital of New Years Eve, and nothing says New York like:


----------



## UntilThen

What did Adam say to Eve the day before New Year?


----------



## UntilThen

Alright New York you say? I'll play along and just enjoy the video of New York.


----------



## connieflyer

Glen has a better voice than frank farnsworth


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen I was looking at an ad for oppo pm-2 phones, the guy lives in Canberra, would you mind running over there and have a listen for me?  What a guy!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> What did Adam say to Eve the day before New Year?


 
  
 It's New Years, Evelyn ????


----------



## UntilThen

Frank who? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Now I give you Abba. Sweden's best talent.


----------



## connieflyer

Ohhhh that hurt's!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen I was looking at an ad for oppo pm-2 phones, the guy lives in Canberra, would you mind running over there and have a listen for me?  What a guy!


 
 No can do. You don't need oppo. You want Abba.


----------



## connieflyer

Abba is a great group, still play them occassionally, and they sound exactly the same. Even though the cd has aged it still sounds the same


----------



## connieflyer

I would go over there and listen myself, but my personal jet is in for servicing.  Need the aft galley cleaned!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> It's New Years, Evelyn ????


 
 Get it right mate. It's...
  
 New Year's Eve.


----------



## connieflyer

Maybe over there, but over here it is new years eve, eve


----------



## connieflyer

Just had a fantastic dinner, opened a can of chicken rice soup, added crackers and two glasses of Chardonnay ,went down smooth as silk, finished the bottle for desert, now looking for a snack.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg both of you are close to Supremo status. 
  
 I'm ready to pin on both of you.


----------



## connieflyer

I would love to have the honor, but I am not worthy


----------



## connieflyer

How many do we need?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Get it right mate. It's...
> 
> New Year's Eve.


 

 Remember, I'm trying to cope with all this with a bag over my head 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 By the way, I always thought Abba was from Italy ))))


----------



## connieflyer

You are thinking yabba dabba do, it is a monkey thing I think


----------



## connieflyer

What's with the bag? You can't be that bad looking, and on here no camera's!


----------



## UntilThen

So dear friends, I'm nothing special, in fact I'm a bit of a bore. If I tell a joke, you've probably heard it before. 
  
But I have a talent, a wonderful thing. Cause everyone listens when I start to sing.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Remember, I'm trying to cope with all this with a bag over my head
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You're confusing Meryl Streep and Pierce Bosnan with ABBA. Good movie though.


----------



## connieflyer

I think desert is kicking in, have to leave soon and get to the package store, need some Boones Farm, that Chardonnay is not sitting well


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I would love to have the honor, but I am not worthy


 
 Here we give it to the unworthy too. We don't discriminate LOL.


----------



## connieflyer

Sounds like a plan, we accept


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> What's with the bag? You can't be that bad looking, and on here no camera's!


 
 How soon we forget:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4545#post_13122886
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4545#post_13122904


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Here we give it to the unworthy too. We don't discriminate LOL.


 

 I prefer to earn it the old fashion way. Post early, post often. And hope the moderator doesn't notice


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I think desert is kicking in, have to leave soon and get to the package store, need some *Boones Farm*, that Chardonnay is not sitting well


 

 Don't forget to take your drivers license. You'll probably get carded.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I prefer to earn it the old fashion way. Post early, post often. And hope the moderator doesn't notice


 
 Ok I believe you guys will earn it indeed by singing 'We will rock you' !


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> So dear friends, I'm nothing special, in fact I'm a bit of a bore. If I tell a joke, you've probably heard it before.


 
 Oh no. I very much disagree:


----------



## UntilThen

Gosh I almost doze off there. Now to step up the tempo.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Gosh I almost doze off there. Now to step up the tempo.





 You weren't kidding about that "torture" thing:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4590#post_13127581


----------



## UntilThen

77 more posts for you to reach immortality @pctazhp . I'll leave you with this song so you can sleep with beautiful dreams.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> 77 more posts for you to reach immortality @pctazhp . I'll leave you with this song so you can sleep with beautiful dreams.





 Is there a song with that video???? I'm going to sleep immediately so I can start dreaming!!! Plus, I don't think I could handle any of @connieflyer posts tonight after he has downed a bottle or two of Boones Farm


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/Zh7eAG2jJkA[/VIDEO]

_My Little Buttercup_


----------



## UntilThen

Now I'm going to play a song for my Finnish bro Oskari.


----------



## Spork67

I saw that ^^^ while I was listening to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kemhas7hSuI
  
 edit - the one before, not the one above...


----------



## DavidA

Wow, talk about a trip down memory lane, great tunes guys.


----------



## UntilThen

I am convinced you won't find a better tube amp at < $1000 to pair with T1 and HD800. What I am hearing now is nothing short of phenomenal. T1 with Elise and EL3N / 5998. Vocals are stunningly sweet, bass has that oomph and high notes titillate your brain hearing cells.
  
 These headphones blossomed into a singing lark with Elise. You get all the tube goodness with crystal clear transparency of these incredibly revealing HPs. It's organic and breathing. No mods necessary. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So good is the synergy for me, I have a hard time wondering what Elise Mk2 will achieved.


----------



## UntilThen

Did anyone say something about Nikka Whisky? This Samurai bottle was bought at duty free in Tokyo - Dec 2010. I'm trying to aged it with Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah you want this instead.
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikka-Miyagikyo-Sherry-Cask-Single-Malt-Whisky-700ml-48-3000-bottles-only-/182164802019?hash=item2a69de49e3:g:ZW8AAOSw7XZXhJ9y


----------



## UntilThen

Hehe Mt Fuji 12 YO
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Suntory-Hibiki-Mount-Fuji-21-YO-Japanese-Single-Malt-Whisky-700ml/152100256834?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777003%26algo%3DDISCL.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D39923%26meid%3De0e45b08132d4e52aed22a334a80a2b9%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D322303274596


----------



## UntilThen

Which reminds me. I heard this song in Tokyo and bought a CD with a female singer singing it but this guy is probably their hero.


----------



## UntilThen

I've gone on to EL3N and Bendix 6080wb slotted plates and listening to Phil Collins. Great tone.
  
 One More Night
  
 Trivia: What movie did this song feature in?


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> @hypnos1  Happy New Year to you too H1-and everyone else!
> 
> I don't really have anything more to add to #4131, p276, concerning the differences between the Telefunken EL11 and Philips EL3N tubes, but some others have adapters and tubes ordered so it's going to be interesting to learn how they find any differences.
> 
> I also haven't had an opportunity to try any other brand of EL11, which might sound quite different to the Telefunkens. I've always liked the Philips EL3N's and the Telefunken EL11's are just a different flavour- more articulate and dynamic, slightly narrower, but more holographic soundstage, a bit less embracingly warm, but equally euphonic.


 
  
 Hi H13....and sorry all for derailing the wonderful frivolity once more - blame @Oskari's long past call for 'focus' lol...again!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, on more mundane matters, Howie, you are bang on with your comparison between EL3N and _certain_ EL11s. I haven't yet adapted my other TFKs, but from the sound of it, my RFTs appear about the same...which is no real surprise!
  
 Not as warm as the EL3N for sure (Loreena's voice a _tad_ less rich) - especially in the new amp - but with a wonderful crisp, clarity that reminds me of the Siemens C3g'S'. Details galore, with wonderful soundstage...just as you described.
  
 I'd venture to say that if one's system/ears are already biased heavily towards the top end, the EL3N might well be the better bet. But if the EL3N (or system) are suffering from the 'issues' I mentioned previously - ie. _overly_ warm/bloated/congested etc. - then the EL11 will fit the bill much better!
  
 At this point, even though not back to back yet with the old Valvo mesh-plates, I'd say the latter are indeed smoother...almost a fusion of the EL3N and German EL11. Which doesn't surprise me in the least...the Philips stable oval plates are quite different to the round Telefunken design, and I'm sure the (rare!) mesh plate design of my Valvos is adding to the smooth delivery (can't wait to see how the equally old Black Glass _solid_ plate Valvos compare! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now you can get back to New Year frivolities folks...with my blessing lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(just so long as no-one snaffles my Hennessy XO!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi H13....and sorry all for derailing the wonderful frivolity once more - blame @Oskari's long past call for 'focus' lol...again!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Perfectly expressed, as always, H1. 5998 combined with Telefunken EL11 sounds perfect for me and will see me well into the New Year.
  
 You have certainly been very busy with a new amp AND new tube types. I hope you have a few days of 'peace' over the weekend, after which maybe we will hear more from F-A about V2.
  
 I hope there is an upgrade option for us Europeans who are suffering badly from the rotten exchange rates at the moment. Meantime Elise V1 will provide me (together with the whisky) with much succour.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## UntilThen

9pm fireworks has started


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> 5998 combined with Telefunken EL11 sounds perfect for me and will see me well into the New Year.


 
 Good on you Howie. Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Bendix 6080wb will see me into the New Year.
  
 Starting with this song.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I am convinced you won't find a better tube amp at < $1000 to pair with T1 and HD800. What I am hearing now is nothing short of phenomenal. T1 with Elise and EL3N / 5998. Vocals are stunningly sweet, bass has that oomph and high notes titillate your brain hearing cells.
> 
> These headphones blossomed into a singing lark with Elise. You get all the tube goodness with crystal clear transparency of these incredibly revealing HPs. It's organic and breathing. No mods necessary.
> 
> ...


 
 Except for @hypnos1 the rest of us just have to imagine for now. But when I listen to Elise1, I too often wonder how it can get any better


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> 9pm fireworks has started


 

 Happy New Years from the high Sonoran Desert)))) Only excitement here right now is being provided by the warm glow of Sylvania 6SN7WGT/TS5998


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> I've gone on to EL3N and Bendix 6080wb slotted plates and listening to Phil Collins. Great tone.
> 
> One More Night
> 
> Trivia: What movie did this song feature in?




  
 My guess is Against All Odds for the Phil Collins song.
  
 Also a bit of history for you guys about the Bendix 6080 tubes.
  
 Starvos shared this with me about the Bendix 6080 tubes.
  
 They were used by the U.S. military in SAM....that is why they have the rugged construction that they do. 
  
 Starvos is an encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to tubes, as is gibosi


----------



## pctazhp

Good morning America. How are ya??? It's our last day of 2016:


----------



## UntilThen

Happy New Year everyone !


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> My guess is Against All Odds for the Phil Collins song.
> 
> Also a bit of history for you guys about the Bendix 6080 tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah I read somewhere that they were used in the deployment of surface to air missiles.
  
 'One More Night' featured in the classic 'The Colour of Money'


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen listening to all your talk about fireworks and everything I forgot you were a day ahead, so started celebrating, had to go to store for more, tried to kiss clerk Happy New Year ,  but said the police would be summons, oh well old age will do that to you. He was embarressed for me, positive side is, I did remember to get lottery tickets, so may be able recover from total stupidity!


----------



## connieflyer

Had I know that those sam's contained something worthwhile., I would not have minded them so much. Some of those things looked like telephone poles coming up!  If we would have known about the tubes, maybe we could have borrowed a chopper from the Army and tried to snag a few in flight and "acquired" the tuubes!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen listening to all your talk about fireworks and everything I forgot you were a day ahead, so started celebrating, had to go to store for more, tried to kiss clerk Happy New Year ,  but said the police would be summons, oh well old age will do that to you. He was embarressed for me, positive side is, I did remember to get lottery tickets, so may be able recover from total stupidity!


 
 Well you have the chance to sing this 'one more night' before the New Year whereas for me it is already 2017. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







  
Please give me one more night
Give me one more night
One more night 'cause I can't wait forever
Give me just one more night, oh just one more night
Oh one more night 'cause I can't wait forever


----------



## connieflyer

I used to sing that to my many girlfriends (that did not work out) and always got interrupted. But if you sing to us, we will grant you honorary stateside status, so you will indeed get "one more night"!


----------



## UntilThen

Also @whirlwind my Tung Sol 5998 came from Vietnam, where the seller told me it's new and left over from a US military base when they left Vietnam.
  
 I wonder what the 5998 were used in.


----------



## connieflyer

Seems to me they may have been hooked up to the coffee urn to provide stand-by heat to keep coffee warm?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen listening to all your talk about fireworks and everything I forgot you were a day ahead, so started celebrating, had to go to store for more, tried to kiss clerk Happy New Year ,  *but said the police would be summons,* oh well old age will do that to you. He was embarressed for me, positive side is, I did remember to get lottery tickets, so may be able recover from total stupidity!


 
 You need to be very careful. If the police come to your home they will find that missing taxi cab


----------



## connieflyer

Sold it for an Elise 2!


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> Also @whirlwind my Tung Sol 5998 came from Vietnam, where the seller told me it's new and left over from a US military base when they left Vietnam.
> 
> I wonder what the 5998 were used in.


 
 I am not sure....maybe a regulator in power supplies...that is just a wild guess.
  
 Make great audio tubes though...some of my favorite power tubes


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Also @whirlwind my Tung Sol 5998 came from Vietnam, where the seller told me it's new and left over from a US military base when they left Vietnam.
> 
> I wonder what the 5998 were used in.


 

 If I had known about them back then, I could have invented the Elise


----------



## connieflyer

You did not have time, what with chasing all the nurses around !!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> You did not have time, what with chasing all the nurses around !!


 

 Unfortunately, I don't remember ever catching any of them ))))


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Except for @hypnos1 the rest of us just have to imagine for now. But when I listen to Elise1, I too often wonder how it can get any better


 
 We need to sing to @hypnos1  this song. You can't touch this *Elise Mk1*.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> If I had known about them back then, I could have invented the Elise


 
 If you had Elise back then, you could have sign out a few dozens 5998 for personal usage. My 5998 had 6642 and 6842 stamp on it. I guess that meant the year and week of the year manufacture.


----------



## UntilThen

At the New Year's fireworks, they play music of 2016's departed musical legends. This Space Oddity by David Bowie.


----------



## UntilThen

Also this song by Prince.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> pctazhp said:
> 
> 
> > If I had known about them back then, I could have invented the Elise
> ...


 
 Yeah, my guess is 1966 and 1968  42 week.......do any of them have a top and a side getter...I think these came about in the mid 60's if I am not mistaken.
  
 I have three different sets and I have one set that has a top and side getter that I believe are from 1966.....I could also be very wrong


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Yeah, my guess is 1966 and 1968  42 week.......do any of them have a top and a side getter...I think these came about in the mid 60's if I am not mistaken.
> 
> I have three different sets and I have one set that has a top and side getter that I believe are from 1966.....I could also be very wrong


 
 Yup top and side getters and in green 'marines' camouflage lettering.


----------



## UntilThen

And I continue to pay tribute to David Bowie because he's such a good singer composer.


----------



## UntilThen

Farewell Leonard too. I used to play this song so much in the early days of my Elise. Even @CITIZENLIN  plays it.


----------



## pctazhp

Lot's of rain here right now, but I don't think any of it is purple.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Perfectly expressed, as always, H1. 5998 combined with Telefunken EL11 sounds perfect for me and will see me well into the New Year.
> 
> You have certainly been very busy with a new amp AND new tube types. I hope you have a few days of 'peace' over the weekend, after which maybe we will hear more from F-A about V2.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H13...and will certainly take your advice re. a bit of a break - have indeed been OD'ing somewhat on Elise goodness lol!!...but boy, what a way to go LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Am having a bit of trouble trying to write this - almost impossible in fact, as I listen to MKII + RFT EL11 + GEC CV2523...first Andrew Gold's "Never let her slip away" has me transfixed, and then - much to my surprise - a much older, more simply recorded "Early Morning Rain" (Peter, Paul & Mary) glues me to the spot every bit as much...how can this be lol?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...truly wondrous! And now, back to the magical talents of a Master recording engineer...viz. as in "Alone Tonight" (Genesis), and once again my fingers have slowed down to a snail's pace...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....need I say more?...
  
 ps. You and V1 may well need a good bit more whisky to match what's scrambling my brain just at present!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!
  


pctazhp said:


> Except for @hypnos1 the rest of us just have to imagine for now. But when I listen to Elise1, I too often wonder how it can get any better


 
  
 Wonder on, baby...imagination is indeed a wondrous thing - *but nothing like the REAL THING lo**l*!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


connieflyer said:


> Sold it for an Elise 2!


 
  
 Always knew you were an extremely sensible chap, cf...or is _that_ all an illusion also lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


untilthen said:


> We need to sing to @hypnos1  this song. You can't touch this *Elise Mk1*.




  
 Well UT, all I can say is..............................
  

  











....


----------



## UntilThen

Omg 2 rap songs in one night that's more than my life time's quota. Please no more rap. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Twerk is fine.


----------



## UntilThen

I'll retreat to something safe like the Travelling Wilburys.


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Wonder on, baby...imagination is indeed a wondrous thing - *but nothing like the REAL THING lo**l*!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


>




  
 Hmmm pct, my dear friend....while dreaming your life away, please be sure to keep one eye open for a nice pair of used RFT EL11s - two singles with at least 30mA reading (36mA is 100%) can often be found for very reasonable money @ ebay "buy it now"...basically the same as Telefunkens but usually cheaper. And sometimes auction prices can be even better...if you're patient and canny with your bidding - I myself bagged a very nice pair for less than 30 Euros lol!  And although it pains me to say so, for me at least, they do indeed surpass the EL3N in most respects. But as mentioned previously, much will depend on the rest of the system...._*as usual!!*_... The more I hear them, with my GECs and T1s, the more delicious they sound...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(now you can go back to your (lovely, I hope!) dreams...[I'm sure @connieflyer or @UntilThen can find some more very '_nice_' videos as inspiration lol!!] 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).


----------



## connieflyer

Well decided I would bring on the new year with a clean house top to bottom, (not as much fun as it sounds)  and in the process I ran across our stash of wine, we had been saving for a special occasion, so figured I would share them with my good friends on this forum, so don't wait around to long, as I am going to have to start early to finish by new years. I guess I will end up kissing the dog, as my picture has been posted in all the bars and resturants so people can be on the look out for me, and avoid at all costs!  Well by time I finish these 8 bottles, my image in the mirror will even look good!  Cheers and all have a peaceful and wonderful new year.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Well decided I would bring on the new year with a clean house top to bottom, (not as much fun as it sounds)  and in the process I ran across our stash of wine, we had been saving for a special occasion, so figured I would share them with my good friends on this forum, so don't wait around to long, as I am going to have to start early to finish by new years. I guess I will end up kissing the dog, as my picture has been posted in all the bars and resturants so people can be on the look out for me, and avoid at all costs!  Well by time I finish these 8 bottles, my image in the mirror will even look good!  Cheers and all have a peaceful and wonderful new year.


 
  
 Hey cf, I'm on the next 'plane out lol!...via Hawaii!!...(or would be, if I thought there'd be any left by the time I got there lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








).
  
 Anyways my friend, please have a glass or two for me...I shall be toasting _your_ health (and everyone else's here!) with something a bit less exotic (alas!) at dinner...in half an hour, in fact...IF I can tear these cans away from my ears, that is! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...("No more I love you's" is bringing tears to my eyes).  CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## connieflyer

Well don't get in trouble with Rita take the cans off put them on tomorrow or later after dinner. I don't know if it'll be exotic or not I think the oldest one only goes back to 1984 but then I go back farther than that so we shall see. Of course you would be welcome to share this with me but I doubt you'd get here in time. All the best to you tell Rita I said that you would be a nice person if only you could spend more time on the Forum. Take care my friend


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Well don't get in trouble with Rita take the cans off put them on tomorrow or later after dinner. I don't know if it'll be exotic or not I think the oldest one only goes back to 1984 but then I go back farther than that so we shall see. Of course you would be welcome to share this with me but I doubt you'd get here in time. *All the best to you tell Rita I said that you would be a nice person if only you could spend more time on the Forum. *Take care my friend


 
  
 Hmmm, cf - that would be giving the good lady carte-blanche to keep telling me how _*bad*_ I am, alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(and little extra encouragement does she need...bless her lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 Anyway, cans are now off...a certain finger has just pointed somewhere in the direction of the kitchen...(always knew I shouldn't have volunteered to take over the kitchen when I arrived here...she won't take it back now...wonder why not?!!!)...Sante, mon ami...


----------



## DavidA

This is so strange, my GF Lily is in Korea so she celebrated the New Year a few hours ago and for me here in Hawaii its 16+ hours away.
  
@connieflyer, you have some nice wines there and hope there were stored well or you might have some extra cooking wine.  The 83 Domain Alexander Chard looks like it might be a little pass its prime and in to cooking stuff if that color in the picture is accurate.
  
 Here's what I'm thinking of serving for tonight with dinner:


----------



## connieflyer

They were all laying on their side in a cool, closed cabinet


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Omg 2 rap songs in one night that's more than my life time's quota. Please no more rap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thought that might rouse you from your early morn slumber lol!...not my cup o' tea either, I'm afraid!!


----------



## connieflyer

Hope your dinner was a good one glad to see that you're back and read it didn't beat you up too bad


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Hope your dinner was a good one glad to see that you're back and read it didn't beat you up too bad


 
  
 Am now a past Master at hiding the bruises lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...mind you, cf, amazing what cooking up the grub can accomplish in the appeasement stakes...far better than perfume!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Omg 2 rap songs in one night that's more than my life time's quota. Please no more rap.
> ...




Rap with a silent C, you know…


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> This is so strange, my GF Lily is in Korea so she celebrated the New Year a few hours ago and for me here in Hawaii its 16+ hours away.
> 
> @connieflyer, you have some nice wines there and hope there were stored well or you might have some extra cooking wine.  The 83 Domain Alexander Chard looks like it might be a little pass its prime and in to cooking stuff if that color in the picture is accurate.
> 
> Here's what I'm thinking of serving for tonight with dinner:


 

 My wife is in Ukraine, so I definitely experience virtual jet lag. Assuming a Russian invasion is not imminent we will be ringing in the New Year courtesy of Skype in less than three hours. After that I'm planning my own private party during which I will re-read every single post in all three Elise threads starting at the very beginning. AND ANYWAY
  
 
  
 PS. In order to avoid getting banned, I won't post any pictures of what I'm planning to serve


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Rap with a silent C, you know…


 
  
 As for me?...I'm too much of a gentleman to even _think_ such a thing lol!...(but I have been known to tell the odd porkie pie now and again!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hmmm pct, my dear friend....while dreaming your life away, please be sure to keep one eye open for a nice pair of used RFT EL11s - two singles with at least 30mA reading (36mA is 100%) can often be found for very reasonable money @ ebay "buy it now"...basically the same as Telefunkens but usually cheaper. And sometimes auction prices can be even better...if you're patient and canny with your bidding - I myself bagged a very nice pair for less than 30 Euros lol!  And although it pains me to say so, for me at least, they do indeed surpass the EL3N in most respects. But as mentioned previously, much will depend on the rest of the system...._*as usual!!*_... The more I hear them, with my GECs and T1s, the more delicious they sound...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Inspiration? That's my middle name. CF has pick that up too. His middle name is Utopia. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Pct can afford a new pair of Telefunken EL11. Back in the old days, Telefunken makes the best tube amp and tubes. Fact or fiction?


----------



## pctazhp

I realize I'm just a desert hick who crawled our from behind a saguaro cactus and who believes Rhinestone Cowboy is the name of a renowned Italian opera, but I believe that it is difficult to beat music like this. So this is my Happy New Years greeting to the dear souls on this thread who are so tolerant of the craziness this audio misfit inflicts daily on this thread:


----------



## UntilThen

@whirlwind  I forget to ask you. Does the Bendix 6080wb slotted plates sound any different from the solid plate variety? You have both now right?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Inspiration? That's my middle name. CF has pick that up too. His middle name is Utopia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Your generosity with my pocketbook is deeply touching


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Rap with a silent C, you know…


 
 I'm too much of a noob. What is a Rap with a silent C ????


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Your generosity with my pocketbook is deeply touching


 
 No problem at all. I give financial advice to friends freely when it comes to buying tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Behold I'm rolling tube amps and headphones again today. This is infectious coming from @DavidA .


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I'm too much of a noob. What is a Rap with a silent C ????




Place C in front of rap. That's what it is.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> As for me?...I'm too much of a gentleman to even _think_ such a thing lol!...(but I have been known to tell the odd porkie pie now and again!! :wink_face: )...





[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/iT15WlGnjb0[/VIDEO]

_Little White Lies_


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Place C in front of rap. That's what it is.


 
 RASCAL ! 
  
 I've a song for you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  crap that is.


----------



## UntilThen

This is for all of you to make it through the night as you await the New Year. Remember no wild parties or no drink and drive. Forum chatting is safer for you.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> @whirlwind  I forget to ask you. Does the Bendix 6080wb slotted plates sound any different from the solid plate variety? You have both now right?


 
 I a;ways heard that the slotted plates sounded better.....they both sound the same to my ears


----------



## connieflyer

Okay the floors are all washed and glowing, showered and no I am pooped. I hope not too much so to participate tonight.


----------



## connieflyer

Now that you are all awake from Abba, time to put you back to sleep with one of my all time favorites by Mark Knopler
  
 It is almost the new year so I can repost this, sorry @hypnos1 I know how much you loooovvvveeee this one!


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I a;ways heard that the slotted plates sounded better.....they both sound the same to my ears


 
 Thanks mate. I trust your ears.


----------



## UntilThen

Dire Straits? I like this 'Once Upon A Time In The West'. Great guitar works by Knopfler. I'm listening to the vinyl version now.


----------



## connieflyer

That was a good movie with a very good sound track for it's day. Quite nice, Clint Eastwood and a very demure Claudia Cardinale!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm lost in the magic of this album Dire Straits Alchemy Live. Private Investigator now. Stunning. Electrifying.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Inspiration? That's my middle name. CF has pick that up too. His middle name is Utopia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You must mean like this radio from 1942. There's a Telefunken EL11 in it too, so it must be quality.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> You must mean like this radio from 1942. There's a Telefunken EL11 in it too, so it must be quality.


 
  
 Haha you found a photo. I was joking making that statement but looks like Telefunken is quality after all. What are the other 2 short tubes. EL11's younger brothers?


----------



## UntilThen

Looks like all the NOS pairs of Telefunken EL11 are sold out. The pair that is coming my way must have double in price by now. @pctazhp  you are too late I'm afraid.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> _Little White Lies_


 
  
 Yo O...just _tiny, wee_ ones...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Dear Ella - one of the greatest ever lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...thanks for reminding me...


----------



## connieflyer

83 Domain Alexander Chardonnay down, tasted very good, went well with my Marie Callendar noodles and sausage frozen dinner,  but then what wouldn't.  Don't remember it taking this long to finish a bottle, wonder now if I should see if the dog wants some.what to do next?


----------



## connieflyer

After watching this video I don't think I will go out back and light off my sparklers....


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> 83 Domain Alexander Chardonnay down, tasted very good, went well with my Marie Callendar noodles and sausage frozen dinner,  but then what wouldn't.  Don't remember it taking this long to finish a bottle, wonder now if I should see if the dog wants some.what to do next?


 
 Take it easy CF. It's only 6pm. You have to see the clock strike midnight.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> That was a good movie with a very good sound track for it's day. Quite nice, Clint Eastwood and a very demure Claudia Cardinale!


 
  
 Aaahhh....Claudia 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...yet another I've been in love with. You're breaking my heart, cf...STOP IT!! - go finish off another of those fine bottles lol!
  


untilthen said:


> I'm lost in the magic of this album Dire Straits Alchemy Live. Private Investigator now. Stunning. Electrifying.


 
 As is 'Telegraph Road'...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


untilthen said:


> Looks like all the NOS pairs of Telefunken EL11 are sold out. *The pair that is coming my way must have double in price by now.* @pctazhp  you are too late I'm afraid.


 
  
 Never fear, UT, or @pctazhp...or anyone else. No need _whatsoever_ to pay over the odds for NOS TFKs...there are plenty of near 100% (36mA) EL11s on ebay, especially RFTs (East German), which I'm sure are the equal of TFK-labelled ones lol (and MUCH cheaper than NOS TFKs).  @HOWIE13 should soon be able to confirm this, as will I when I get my TFKs adapted - some time this week, hopefully.
  
 Speaking of Telefunkens, earlier this evening I was rather surprised to see a pair of BLACK GLASS ones...have only ever seen the grey-glass tubes...so I snaffled 'em!...one just over 100%, the other just about there - and only 49 Euros the pair...NICE!  Will be very interesting to see how they compare with the greys...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And by the way, I only first saw these on the ebay.pl site, NOT .com. I think it was @mordy who mentioned a while back that the Polish ebay do indeed often list tubes that cannot be found elsewhere. Sometimes the German site...(ebay.de) is also a good place to search...GOOD HUNTING!...(you don't need to pay too much for really good tubes..._*yet!!*_...).


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Read somewhere that the if you look on the Polish eBay site you get all European listings - nice piece of info.
  
  
 Now a question: The Elise is supposed to be made for a a tube complement of max 6.8A if I remember correctly. Using the GEC 6AS7 and the EL11 tubes, do you exceed this rating? (I think the EL11 are 1A and the EL11N are 1.2A from memory).


----------



## UntilThen

EL11 is similar to EL3N at 0.9a
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el11.html


----------



## UntilThen

EL11 test


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again folks...and welcome to 2017 - here in the UK, anyway.
  
 I should really be abed by now, but I just couldn't go before a brief post re. a heart-stopping experience after giving into temptation and popping in my mesh-plated Australian EL3NG and a mesh-plated Black Glass Valvo EL11 (both with identical internals). More detailed description tomorrow, but basically these things are indeed a fusion of the 'normal' Philips stable EL3N and the German EL11...but with even more added extras - greater mids detail; more extended, sweet treble with amazing percussion shimmer and decay; a wider soundstage that manages to retain wonderful imaging/focus/positioning, and a 3D holographic presentation like I've never heard before. I'm still trying to get my head around this sound, so I'll have to try and get some sleep now and come back to this later today....so it's 'bye for now, and G'night all...zzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## UntilThen

Happy New Year  @hypnos1  and all the best for 2017 and beyond.
  
 Happy New Year to all those about to usher in the New Year soon.


----------



## mordy

While I do not know much about the subject of various alcoholic drinks, I just came across an article about the 50 best whiskies - maybe of interest:
  
 http://www.mensjournal.com/food-drink/collections/the-50-best-whiskeys-in-the-world-w211382
  
 Seems this comparison is for the crowd that appreciates _notes __of leather, tobacco, polished wood, and sweet sherry _(whatever that means - wouldn't eat or drink the first three).
  
 OK, I'll try: The GEC 6AS7 has notes (pun intended) of Turkish coffee, chocolate mousse, caffeine, strawberry/vanilla, earth tones, Drambuie punch and sweet mango with a hint of exotic tannins.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen that test of the el11 was great and they do sound really good.  I turned the speakers up load and it still played well.  I need some desert, forgot to pick junk food up, oh well, also looks like 8 bottles of wine is not going to happen. Already 8:30  here and only on second bottle and I think that is going to do it.  Thank God for spell checker! Have a very Happy New Year everyone.


----------



## UntilThen

Hey @connieflyer I would have come over but am now at Thai restaurant with the family. )))

Say hi to Connor for me.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Looks like all the NOS pairs of Telefunken EL11 are sold out. The pair that is coming my way must have double in price by now. @pctazhp  you are too late I'm afraid.


 

 Not so fast buckaroo!!! I just flipped the switch, did the deal, clicked the mouse, threw the dice, made my move, did the trick, took the plunge, ran the gamut, milked the cow, shot the moon.....oh, sometimes I get so confused 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 What I'm trying to say is I just ordered a beautiful NOS pair of Telefunken EL11s and adapters. The EL11s will be here in about a week. The adapters in about three years - or however long it takes to arrive from Mrs. X.
  
 The only reason I did it was to remain active in the coveted tube-rolling game. However, I STRONGLY SUSPECT your post was a diabolic plot to panic me into buying the EL11s. If my suspicions are correct, it worked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Instead of re-read thousands of Elise posts tonight, I went to see Passengers. It was pretty good.
  
 Speaking of rabbits, do you know how to catch a unique rabbit? You nique up on it


----------



## connieflyer

Connor says back at you have a great meal so quiet around here tonight no fireworks and that's not a problem take care Matt have a great New Year


----------



## connieflyer

Pct OUCH rabbit thing with bad. I was going to go see passengers maybe I will now that I've been know that someone would recommend it. Don't worry about trying to keep up with each one. The AL 11 are the new tubes to get. They are much better than all the rest there are no tubes in the world as good as these check it out


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp you move faster than speedy Gonzalez. ))))

I sure would hate bidding against you.

So Jennifer Lawrence is good in Passenger? I was going to see Rogue One .


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> @pctazhp you move faster than speedy Gonzalez. ))))
> 
> I sure would hate bidding against you.
> 
> So Jennifer Lawrence is good in Passenger? I was going to see Rogue One .


 

 Jennifer Lawrence is the best part, for sure ))))


----------



## pctazhp

I'll get right on those AL11s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I'm checking out Overstock.com as we speak


----------



## UntilThen

Don't forget charismatic Australian Sam Worthington.


----------



## UntilThen

Wait a sec. What AL11 ? Don't move too fast.


----------



## connieflyer

Gotcha!!


----------



## UntilThen

*Stop Press* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've something outrageous to report. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've used Darkvoice 336se as preamp into Elise as amp, listening through HD650 and T1. Soundstage grew by this much....
  
 <---------------------------------------------------------- S O U N D S T A G E ------------------------------------------------------------->
  
 no bloatiness, details still clear, it's a fun experiment. Very enjoyable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Plus I get the bass weight of DV now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 Ha ! Light bulb moment ! Maybe if I use Elise Mk2 as preamp into Elise Mk 1, could be a 4th of July moment.


----------



## UntilThen

Listening to Sissel now. If the vocals stays true and doesn't fall apart, then it's good. Result - sublime ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Is there no end or possibilities to this Rubik's cube?


----------



## UntilThen

Next let's see how it copes with Jazz. On this Fourplay number Max O Man.
  
 Result - Superb. Ma ma mia.


----------



## UntilThen

Next something brutal. Let's see if the HP drivers hold up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Something hard hitting. 
  
 Oh yeah.... akin to a bit of subwoofer effect here. It's party time.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Remember people trying two tube amps connected in the past - don't remember which thread - LD MKIII or Elise, but the reaction was initially like blown away, but then not so great. In the long run it became tiring. Something about exaggerated effects....


----------



## UntilThen

Well Mordy I'm not trying to sell this idea. Just describing what I hear. I've tried it in the past but with Elise as preamp but now it's DV as preamp. It's a good sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Remember also the Darkvoice is much more capable. Just ask anyone who have both DV and Elise. It's not an amp to be brushed aside.


----------



## UntilThen

Where's @DecentLevi ? I want to try out your small tube driver. Are they expensive? What are they again? and adapters
  
 I'm quite pleased with the sound of Vokshod 6N23P as drivers in Elise. Tight and punchy.


----------



## Spork67

I go fishing for the day, come back, and there are no less than 52 new posts on this thread (which I checked before leaving home this morning).
 You guys are nuts!
  
 So, happy nutty New Year to all of you.


----------



## UntilThen

That's a good size bream. How many did you catch?


----------



## Spork67

Managed around a dozen, with a few around that size.
 Great start to 2017.


----------



## HOWIE13

Happy New Year everyone!
  
 Since we have pre-amp fever today I thought I would experiment.
  
 First Vali2 as a preamp for Elise- nah-loss of harmonics. Then my daughter's el-cheapo Chinese Nobsound (which actually sounds remarkably good for it's low price), meh- sounds 'hard'.
  
 Then Espressivo, and HURRAH, great, that works really well as a pre-amp, and it makes sense too, as Espressivo has three inputs.
  
 I've never been a fan of adding extra obstacles in the electronic path but I can see potential for an Espressivo/Elise combo.
  
 Here's the photos and you can see that Espressivo likes EL11's as power tubes. The drivers are lovely 6/30L2's. Elise's tubes are well known to all I would imagine.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  

  
  
  

  
  
  
@hypnos1  Incidently, I noticed one of my Telefunkens (the one on the right in Espressivo) has black glass, though not so readily appreciated in the photo. Interestingly, it's also the only one of the Telefunken EL11's I have that also has clear glass at the top, and a bit at the bottom of the bottle too, the rest are opaque. You still can't make much out looking in as it's so dark-even with a torch.
  
 I can't discern any difference in sound with it though compared to the others. 
  
 Wife's dragging me away from my music now for a brisk walk on the beach at Troon- so many switches to turn off!


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Since we have *pre-amp fever today* I thought I would experiment.
> 
> First Vali2 as a preamp for Elise- nah-loss of harmonics. Then my daughter's el-cheapo Chinese Nobsound (which actually sounds remarkably good for it's low price), meh- sounds 'hard'.
> 
> ...


 
 Pre-amp fever to kick off the New Year. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 If both tube amps are designed with preamp out and in, it's not really an obstacle. It's designed to work that way if you so choose. No different from using Elise as preamp to your stereo amp and driving your speakers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm still having a fun time. As @Lorspeaker who gave me this idea say 'It's stretchin' the soundstage'.
  
 Darkvoice 336se use the same tube compliments as Elise.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Pre-amp fever to kick off the New Year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes they all have preamp outs and none sounds unacceptable. In fact if I wasn't comparing I would think all three set-ups were good.
 The Chinese amp also uses a 6AS7 tube as power but EF95's for drivers. Quite a nice tube amp for about £100, though Espressivo is the best independent sounding of the three I was using as a preamp to Elise.
  
 Well we have to do new things until Elise 2 arrives.


----------



## Lorspeaker

yawnzzz....stretching my soundstagedollars with this..
  
 http://www.gearbest.com/earbud-headphones/pp_432000.html?wid=21 
  
 and 
  
  
 http://www.gearbest.com/earbud-headphones/pp_598798.html?wid=21


----------



## mordy

Hi L,
  
 How do these buds compare to the VE Monks?


----------



## Lorspeaker

mordy said:


> Hi L,
> 
> How do these buds compare to the VE Monks?


 
  
 Monkplus is neutral-ish, taut;
 ZST is a twindriver,  has a leaner, more agile sound, good separation,
 as if the monk has been spread out.
 i use this to listen to big orchestration..on a better setup.
  
 AST is a Monkplus with added bassbody, sort of..
 i use this on my fone..and it will sound enjoyable.


----------



## DavidA

Happy New to All


----------



## connieflyer

WOW, hope this is an indication of how the rest of the year goes. Bright sunshine!  Have not seen that in a few months. Perfect way to start of the new year.  Even Connor is awake and ready to go for another walk! Hope you all had a great time and have much peace and happiness in the coming year.


----------



## connieflyer

Something to help wake you up....Geeetaaarrrrrsss Steve Winwood Eric Clapton


----------



## connieflyer

Add Prince Tom Petty Jeff Lynne and you have another classic


----------



## connieflyer

Okay one last one, time to get something done..


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Happy New Year everyone!
> 
> Since we have pre-amp fever today I thought I would experiment.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Right then, H13...that's handy to know...(mind you, sometimes it does take _two_ of the same to fully notice any differences - so you MUST get yourself another lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 I presume your Black Glass TFK looks something like this pair I got for 49 Euros...a steal, I think - for one at 38mA, the other 35mA (when 36mA is 100%)!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   :
  

  
 ps. Will be updating on the mesh-plate tubes after I've scrubbed and had a cuppa...(still can't believe what I heard last night/this (early!) morning lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  So will need to reconfirm once more also...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Right then, H13...that's handy to know...(mind you, sometimes it does take _two_ of the same to fully notice any differences - so you MUST get yourself another lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 They look a lovely pair. You got a great deal there.
  
 Difficult to tell in photo whether the glass is clear at the top and bottom of the bottle but all the markings are identical, except mine is numbered '90'.
  
 Looking forward to your assessment. It's pretty mean of Telefunken to have made the glass so dark it's impossible to see inside- adds to the intrigue though!


----------



## pctazhp

This is a picture of the EL11s I ordered:
  

  
 This is a picture of Jennifer Lawrence for those who don't understand why I went to see Passengers last night:
  

  
 This is a picture of my dear departed unique rabbit, Bugsy:


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> They look a lovely pair. You got a great deal there.
> 
> Difficult to tell in photo whether the glass is clear at the top and bottom of the bottle but all the markings are identical, except mine is numbered '90'.
> 
> Looking forward to your assessment. It's pretty mean of Telefunken to have made the glass so dark it's impossible to see inside- adds to the intrigue though!


 
  
 Yo H13...the deals are indeed out there lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 (and I didn't even have to do some seriously risky 'sniping' to get 'em!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). They do in fact look remarkably like the Valvo EL11 (Black Glass), but I doubt very much they'll have the mesh plates alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(as with most other Black Glass Valvos! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Speaking of which, I'm glad to say that my last pair - the mesh-plated Australian EL3N*G *and Valvo EL11 - have indeed replicated my initial experience with 2x Valvos in the new amp...I wasn't dreaming/deluded after all..._thank goodness!_ ...As you well know by now, I am not (any more!) a fan of the ridiculously OTT, impossibly unrealistic/unreliable statements concerning _any_ hi-fi equipment - tubes, or otherwise lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but I have to admit that these mesh-plated tubes are indeed superior to either the standard EL3N or German EL11...and in no small measure.
  
 I know this is an awful cliche, but what hit me first and foremost was the too-often-spouted statement : "I hear things I've never heard before". And coming from such exalted tubes as the Sylvania "Chrome Dome" 7N7; the ECC31 (basically the highly regarded ECC32/CV181); Siemens C3g'S'; EL3N (and now the EL11)...this alone took me fair by surprise. And this wasn't just in small measure, either! Plus, although the main area to benefit is the mids, this in no way diminished the clarity, detail and extension of the C3g-like treble. Indeed, there was no hint whatsoever of the C3g's sometimes slightly harsh tendency, which unfortunately was previously a tad too much for my ears, in combination with ESS Sabre-based DAC and T1s. "Sweet", smooth and 'clean' are words that come to mind...but without any accompanying loss of sparkle, bite, excitement or 'air'...plus shimmer and decay to die for.
  
 Soundstage is quite intoxicating - as wide as the EL3N's, but with the 3D surround of the EL11 and the ethereal quality of the C3g....a simply astounding feat IMHO!
  
 Vocal positioning is - for me - spot on...not too distant as to lose touch with the performer, and not too close as to be "in-yer-face" lol! In other words, seductively _intimate_...with backing vocals where they should be - ie _backing_ (from all directions), and not dominating the main vocal line...or sounding _too_ far back!
  
 OK, OK...this is all sounding far too good to be true - there must be a catch!  Well, naturally, not _everything_ can be 100% perfect, no matter how much you pay....so just what _isn't_ quite so marvellous about these tubes? All I can say in all honesty is that I personally do _*not*_ find the following aspect detrimental/lacking in any way...in my system, and my ears...but those who are addicted to _massive_ bass might just wish for the slight extra that comes from the EL3N and/or German EL11. HOWEVER, the superiority in *all* other areas of the mesh-plated tubes _*more*_ than compensates..._*by far!!!*_
  
 As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY downside is that _*they're almost impossible to find LOL!!!*_








. But for those who are lucky enough to strike Gold, I can guarantee they would be in for the surprise of their lives...and would _*never*_ look for another driver...*ever!*...(and that's me trying to be restrained, conservative etc etc.!!!). And although these findings are in the new Elise, I don't doubt they would bring a similar leap in performance to MKI...so I can only wish y'all  GOOD HUNTING!...CJ
  
 ps, @mordy...as UT said, the EL11 - as with the EL3N - are .9A heaters, so no real worries here lol. Especially as they both run _*so cool!*_...(I remember reading somewhere that these tubes don't need much current draw to deliver maximum power, which presumably explains this strange phenomenon!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...in conjunction, also presumably, with the fact that we triode-strap them as opposed to running as true [more powerful] pentodes...)


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> This is a picture of the EL11s I ordered:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a picture of Jennifer Lawrence for those who don't understand why I went to see Passengers last night:


 
  
 They look a lovely pair, pct...the _tubes_, that is!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...WELL DONE!...


----------



## nwavesailor

Just listed a pair of Visseaux 6J5G.


----------



## UntilThen

*Happy New Year 2017.*
  
 2016 is probably best remembered as the year of EL3N. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Elise Mk2 might just take the crown for 2017. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Meanwhile we'll just be creative with what we've got. I've got 5998 in DV and Bendix 6080 in Elise with various 6sn7 as drivers. It's a fusion of the potent.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright now the moment of truth. I want all of you to get out your calculator and add up the amount you spend on all your tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> This is a picture of the EL11s I ordered:


 
  
 Question for you Pct. Why is your Telefunken EL11 shorter and fatter?


----------



## UntilThen

They started a clothing line for Cavalli. http://www.head-fi.org/t/830490/team-cavalli-gear-is-available-now#post_13124077
  
 So I'm thinking we need to get creative too.
  
 Starting with this sign
  

  
 or this

  
  
 or this


----------



## UntilThen

This takes the gong.
  

  
 Ha !!!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Question for you Pct. Why is your Telefunken EL11 shorter and fatter?


 

 What do I look like? An EL11 expert???? I don't have a clue. Probably because they are special issue and sound even better than AL11 tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Alright now the moment of truth. I want all of you to get out your calculator and add up the amount you spend on all your tubes.


 

 This is what I think of that idea:


----------



## UntilThen

Now why didn't FA provide 3 inputs for Elise? This would have been so handy for me.
  
 See the Expressivo.


----------



## connieflyer

I always thought that would have been a great idea myself. It would have been nice on the new release to have multiple inputs but then nobody asked me


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> What do I look like? An EL11 expert???? I don't have a clue. Probably because they are special issue and sound even better than AL11 tubes.






I think those might be tubes made by Valvo (or some other [Philips?] company) for Telefunken.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


>


 
  
 Howie this is very unproportional.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I think those might be tubes made by Valvo (or some other [Philips?] company) for Telefunken.


 
  
 You mean it's not a Telefunken?  Oh oh ....


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> Alright now the moment of truth. I want all of you to get out your calculator and add up the amount you spend on all your tubes.


 
  
 Quote:


pctazhp said:


> This is what I think of that idea:


 
 Well I too don't want to total my amount, but it's definitely at least 5x the cost of the Elise new... including some more goodies on the way that will have my Elise very likely set for life.


----------



## UntilThen

It's a fact we're all tube lovers. You can't put a price on it. Similarly you don't add up the amount you spend on clothes. You just keep buying new ones every year. It's helping the economy.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I always thought that would have been a great idea myself. It would have been nice on the new release to have multiple inputs *but then nobody asked me*


 
 Apparently, no one asked @UntilThen either


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You mean it's not a Telefunken?  Oh oh ....


 

 Jealousy is never a pretty sight. It's ONE OF A KIND


----------



## DecentLevi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again folks...and welcome to 2017 - here in the UK, anyway.
> 
> I should really be abed by now, but I just couldn't go before a brief post re. a heart-stopping experience after giving into temptation and popping in my mesh-plated Australian EL3NG and a mesh-plated Black Glass Valvo EL11 (both with identical internals). More detailed description tomorrow, but basically these things are indeed a fusion of the 'normal' Philips stable EL3N and the German EL11...but with even more added extras - greater mids detail; more extended, sweet treble with amazing percussion shimmer and decay; a wider soundstage that manages to retain wonderful imaging/focus/positioning, and a 3D holographic presentation like I've never heard before. I'm still trying to get my head around this sound, so I'll have to try and get some sleep now and come back to this later today....so it's 'bye for now, and G'night all...zzzzzzzzzzzzz


 
 Interesting H1, which are your favorite, these or the RFT EL11 + GEC CV2523 on your Elise V2 - and would you mind to mention why?
 And I suppose CV2523 is another designation for the GEC 6AS7G / A1834's?
  
 Also two phrases you've been mentioning have had me constantly baffled. What is OTT... Off Thread Topic? And what is "mesh plate"... a sort of clear plate in the center of the tube? A photo would be great. I think you were referring to a Valvo EL11... And below is your photo from a few months ago on some of the variety of these tubes:
  

  
 Also H1 I would recommend that right about now would be a good time for starting a new thread for the Elise V2. Before a product gets released seems to often be a good time to get some interest going. And now that it's new year I recon F.A. will have an update on the pricing, and their new product line soon...


----------



## DecentLevi

Also FYI, I have just by chance noticed that the Audeze LCD 2.2 is currently MUCH more affordable than ever before, with some very affordable sub-$700 options for used pairs on Head-Fi Marketplace among other sources:
 https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=audeze+lcd+2.2
  

  
 I've tried the LCD 2.2 on my Elise last summer and was quite impressed! It has a similarly dark sound as the HD-650, but with better sub-bass extension, more organic sounding, and _slightly _more detailed, with a larger soundstage. But would need bright / dynamic tubes to have that impact on Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Apparently, no one asked @UntilThen either


 
 My wish list is too long. I told Lukasz about it and that was the last I heard from him.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> My wish list is too long. I told Lukasz about it and that was the last I heard from him.


 

 Never lose heart.


----------



## pctazhp

OTT = Over the Top
  
 Mesh = material made of a network of wire or thread
  
 doe = a female dear


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen.  Short, fat tubes are the best:
  

  
 My TFK EL11s are:


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Howie this is very unproportional.


 
  
 Just wanted to enhance the detail of the EL11's for you all. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 
  
 Incidently, re your other post, if V2 Elise only has one input you can buy Espressivo as a preamp  -works really, really well with Elise -and F-A may give you a discount since you are buying two amps.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> @UntilThen.  Short, fat tubes are the best:


 
  


howie13 said:


> Incidently, re your other post, if V2 Elise only has one input you can buy Espressivo as a preamp  -works really, really well with Elise -and F-A may give you a discount since you are buying two amps.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Howie this is very unproportional.


 
  
 Okay, I've re-photographed Espressivo to improve the proportions. This is actually how it normally looks in my system, anyway.


----------



## UntilThen

A m a z i n g Howie.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Interesting H1, which are your favorite, these or the RFT EL11 + GEC CV2523 on your Elise V2 - and would you mind to mention why?
> And I suppose CV2523 is another designation for the GEC 6AS7G / A1834's?
> 
> Also two phrases you've been mentioning have had me constantly baffled. What is OTT... Off Thread Topic? And what is "mesh plate"... a sort of clear plate in the center of the tube? A photo would be great. I think you were referring to a Valvo EL11... And below is your photo from a few months ago on some of the variety of these tubes:
> ...


 
  
 Hi DL...as @UntilThen replied, "OTT" = "Over The Top"...as in devaluing the worth/believability of statements - especially in the eyes of "serious" audiophiles lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. More restrained, "conservative" fare seems to be respected far more...and defends against those who would try to demean the object of such statements...(as in a certain website that must not be mentioned LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)....here endeth the lesson...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 As for "mesh" plates (anodes), these are indeed ones that have been *woven *from single 'threads'...as opposed to _stamped_ from a solid plate. And only appear very seldom in tubes, from what I can gather....and are usually very expensive/exclusive ones lol!
  
 It was by pure chance that I stumbled upon them when examining the first (late '30s/early '40s) Valvo Black Glass EL11s I got, along with an amazing coincidence with a pair of Australian Philips EL3N*G* (with an Octal base)...one of which I disastrously managed to destroy when trying to remove the old base!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(but which at least gave me the chance to take a photo of the plate in question!!).....:
  

  

  
 Don't really know about the "science" of these plates...as to why they should have such an effect on the final sound - _*but they do!!*_  I updated my findings on them in post # 4790, so I shan't repeat them, else some may find it too much! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But in short, DL, I find these mesh-plated tubes to outperform _any_ other tube I have ever tried...and despite repeating myself, I would summarise them as combining the best of all the 'top' drivers I have used to date, but with even _greater_ detail across the entire FR and the 'best' soundstage (for me, anyway!) I have ever heard...along with the other 'extras' I've mentioned previously. And so again - for me - these tubes have created such a gap between them and all of my others that they will now be in my new amp _*permanently!*_




  
 ps. Formulating my first post for the "MKII" thread already, mon ami...things have been somewhat busy just recently lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


----------



## connieflyer

Good Morning @hypnos1 now that you are delving further into the new Elise, and the tube combo, you have mentioned a new thread for Elise 2?  So which came first the chicken or egg?  Start a new thread or wait till they become available?  Oh mighty one, I don't envy the dilemma   you must be faced with.  Such a decision must be made with great caution, to enable you to secure your reputation, honest reviews of amps, and dissemination of information to enable your humble followers to better anticipate a significant improvement in their musical journey.  Please keep us informed as you journey through the confines of your mind!  I had a pair of 6C5 tubes that had mesh plates, and always liked the presentation. Hopefully someday I may get to try the E 11's with mesh plates. Thanks for the updates, and keep them coming.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Good Morning @hypnos1 now that you are delving further into the new Elise, and the tube combo, *you have mentioned a new thread for Elise 2?*  So which came first the chicken or egg?  Start a new thread or wait till they become available?  Oh mighty one, I don't envy the dilemma   you must be faced with.  Such a decision must be made with great caution, to enable you to secure your reputation, honest reviews of amps, and dissemination of information to enable your humble followers to better anticipate a significant improvement in their musical journey.  Please keep us informed as you journey through the confines of your mind!  I had a pair of 6C5 tubes that had mesh plates, and always liked the presentation. Hopefully someday I may get to try the E 11's with mesh plates. Thanks for the updates, and keep them coming.


 
 Hopefully it will be a Unique-Rabbit-Free-Zone. I'll start taking my ADD pills in preparation for H1's launch


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer. It's good you don't have any rabbits. I'm sure Connor would consider them quite yummy for breakfast. Fortunately, Yogi the Dog didn't have much appetite for rabbit:


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Hopefully it will be a Unique-Rabbit-Free-Zone. I'll start taking my ADD pills in preparation for H1's launch


 
  
 Well pct, mon ami...better make sure you've got a LARGE supply of 'em - _pills_ that is lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and @connieflyer - make that at least another dozen of those rather nice wines you've probably finished by now?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Me?...I'll probably need _both_ your aids, and more besides!  But you are spot on with your wise words cf...timing isn't as easy as at may first appear (which is why I haven't been in a hurry just yet, especially as I'd hoped against hope that the new amp might just have been ready to promote (sound like one of the F-A team here lol) prior to Christmas as a "Special 2nd Anniversary" edition in time for Christmas itself...the timing would have been a piece of cake!! However, the project blossomed into a more major one than I - _or_ F-A ever imagined and so turned into a "New Year" edition instead!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And all I can say (once again) is that the wait was _more_ than worthwhile...the end result is a true testament to Pop Feliks's talent and expertise. I for one do not regret the delay one iota...after all, I doubt there are many companies out there who would have been able to achieve such a feat in a fraction of the time!...(plus, not forgetting that poor Henryk was unwell for a while also...).
  
 And so...it's back to my "formulation" - over a nice pot of Earl Grey tea...have had my major dose of caffeine already today!...CHEERS!...


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp funny you should mention rabbits, when I lwt Connor out this morning, there was a rabbit in by the back fence, Connor spotted him did an assesment of the situation and launched himself off the deck, staight for that poor rabbit, Connor was going about 30 mph, almost on top of the poor rabbit, and then the bunny, did a head fake left and went right, Connor was just able to make the turn, but lost speed trying not to run into fence, proceeded right and was gaining got within 7 feet of said rabbit and then old age kicked in and he started slowing, said the hell with it and found the nearest tree to lift his leg, looked at me as if to say you think you can do better you chase him next time, rabbit ran right past me, had a feeling he was laughing at us.
  
@hypnos1 I thought they might have had it out by then also, but a bigger undertaking than I thought. Hopefully here soon, want to jump on the order list as soon as it is available..  Did not drink all the wine, after half way the second bottle, realized I would need more time than available, not 20 years old anymore. Oh well, still have 10 left so you still have time.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp funny you should mention rabbits, when I lwt Connor out this morning, there was a rabbit in by the back fence, Connor spotted him did an assesment of the situation and launched himself off the deck, staight for that poor rabbit, Connor was going about 30 mph, almost on top of the poor rabbit, and then the bunny, did a head fake left and went right, Connor was just able to make the turn, but lost speed trying not to run into fence, proceeded right and was gaining got within 7 feet of said rabbit and then old age kicked in and he started slowing, said the hell with it and found the nearest tree to lift his leg, looked at me as if to say you think you can do better you chase him next time, rabbit ran right past me, had a feeling he was laughing at us.
> 
> @hypnos1 I thought they might have had it out by then also, but a bigger undertaking than I thought. *Hopefully here soon, want to jump on the order list as soon as it is available*..  Did not drink all the wine, after half way the second bottle, realized I would need more time than available, not 20 years old anymore. Oh well, still have 10 left so you still have time.


 
 Yo cf...let's hope F-A have stocked up nicely on components, all ready for a flying start! And I'm sure you deserve to be top o' the list...fingers crossed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 By the way, was fascinated by your mention of mesh plates in your 6C5s...were they the true _*woven*_ plates, as opposed to _*stamped*_ lol?...(now back to my Earl Grey...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and two BG mesh-plated Valvos this time - tea and Heavenly music, what more could one ask for?...at _my_ time of life anyway lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).


----------



## hypnos1

Hmmm guys...very interesting...either my Earl Grey has worked the same magic on these tubes as it does me (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !!), or the second Valvo in place of the Australian mesh-plate EL3N*G* has filled in the very last piece of the jigsaw in my findings of these particular tubes in my new amp...bass is now present to upstage even the mighty ECC31. And the smooth delivery of higher dynamics in this amp brings the added benefit that if I want to really hammer the poor ol' eardrums (as you sometimes just _have_ to do LOL!), I can rattle the equally ol' bones more than is really wise (as much as one can with HPs)..._*nice!...*_








...BFN...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> (now back to my Earl Grey... ...and two BG mesh-plated Valvos this time - tea and Heavenly music, what more could one ask for?...at _my_ time of life anyway lol :wink_face:  ...).




A snifter of XO?


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> A snifter of XO?


 
  
 Oh O...why do you have to tease me so?...you should know by now that despite all my (previous!) talk of Focal Utopias and flights to Hawaii, I am but a poor, penniless wretch lol!!...well, _almost!!!_





...my XO days are LONG gone alas - along with my fantasy land time as an Officer and Gentleman(?!!!) on board Pacific Princess...aka "The Love Boat"!!....aaahhh, those were the days, my friend...oh oh...back to Mary Hopkin again...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...see what you do to me?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## LaCuffia

New Elise owner here (via trade from a great guy and fellow head fi member Spork67)....

It is amazing - adds a new dimension to music: lush and expansive, punchy, detailed, etc. Had a Little Dot Mkiii before, and while good, the Elise is a whole different beast. 

Currently running it with Tung Sol 5998 power tubes and Phillips EL3N as drivers. 

I have it hooked up to Pro Ject Debut Carbon turntable (Ortofon 2M blue cartridge) and Lounge Audio phono pre-amp. 

I mostly use it through the new Sony Z1R. I thought a tube amplifier would be overkill for headphone with a warm sound signature but I was wrong. It is an excellent pairing, giving the Z1R a powerful, concert hall like sound. 

I am actually getting a Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd version) to try out in a couple of days as I heard they are a great match with the Elise. Looking forward to that very much.


----------



## connieflyer

Welcome @LaCuffia, the Elise is indeed a great sounding amp.  Let us know how you like or dislike the T1's should be a good pairing .


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


>




I always find the codes interesting. Here we have two different types of Telefunken date codes. The one on the left is a bit difficult to read. Is that _nc_ or _ne_? Doesn't matter much since that's either Feb 58 or Mar 58. The one on the right, _22095_, decodes as 22 May ?9, presumably 59. Note that this is the subset [of the full code] that Telefunken would have used on an outsourced tube. The tubes might have the actual manufacturer's codes as well.



 http://tctubes.com/telefunken-date-codes.aspx
 http://www.hts-homepage.de/Tfkprod1.html
 http://www.hts-homepage.de/Tfkprod3.html


----------



## Oskari

lacuffia said:


> New Elise owner here (via trade from a great guy and fellow head fi member Spork67)....




Welcome aboard! How did you solve the 230V/115V problem?


----------



## LaCuffia

It was no problem ...just got a step up/down transformer and works great. 

Re tubes... I tried the 6 pak Phillips configuration even though I was a bit apprehensive. It looks scary! I am not sure there is any improvement over just using the 5998 as power tubes but will test further at some point. I am not one for too much experimentation.


----------



## Oskari

lacuffia said:


> It was no problem ...just got a step up/down transformer and works great.




Can you be a bit more specific? There might be others with this dilemma (in the future).


----------



## pctazhp

lacuffia said:


> New Elise owner here (via trade from a great guy and fellow head fi member Spork67)....
> 
> It is amazing - adds a new dimension to music: lush and expansive, punchy, detailed, etc. Had a Little Dot Mkiii before, and while good, the Elise is a whole different beast.
> 
> ...


 

 Welcome to our group. You come highly recommended by @Spork67. I'm glad you weren't scared off by all our silliness. New blood is certainly welcome. I think it forces us to behave a little better, at least for a day or two))))
  
 Your EL3N/5998 combo is very good. If your main goal is superb electronic reproduction of music, experimentation should indeed be optional. I don't own a T1, but am pretty familiar with it. I think you will find it a wonderful match for the Elise.


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> I always find the codes interesting. Here we have two different types of Telefunken date codes. The one on the left is a bit difficult to read. Is that _nc_ or _ne_? Doesn't matter much since that's either Feb 58 or Mar 58. The one on the right, _22095_, decodes as 22 May ?9, presumably 59. Note that this is the subset [of the full code] that Telefunken would have used on an outsourced tube. The tubes might have the actual manufacturer's codes as well.
> 
> http://tctubes.com/telefunken-date-codes.aspx
> http://www.hts-homepage.de/Tfkprod1.html
> http://www.hts-homepage.de/Tfkprod3.html


 

 Thanks a lot for the information. Your research is impressive)))


----------



## LaCuffia

oskari said:


> Can you be a bit more specific? There might be others with this dilemma (in the future).




This did the trick:

https://www.amazon.com/Goldsource-STU-500-Voltage-Converter-Transformer/dp/B0022QOSDK


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Oh O...why do you have to tease me so?...you should know by now that despite all my (previous!) talk of Focal Utopias and flights to Hawaii, *I am but a poor, penniless wretch lol!!*...well, _almost!!!_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 There was a man who drove a trolley car in San Francisco. He had two problems. He had very little money. And he was falsely accused of murder and sentenced to die. They strapped him to the electric chair and ran the voltage all the way up. But no matter how long they tried to fry him he would not die. But that makes sense. He was a *poor conductor*.


----------



## Oskari

lacuffia said:


> This did the trick:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Goldsource-STU-500-Voltage-Converter-Transformer/dp/B0022QOSDK




Thanks! This can serve as a reference for others.


----------



## connieflyer

Remind me not to work for the railroad


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w2DgOxWGAg[/VIDEO]

_Kun katsoit minuun_


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> Where's @DecentLevi ? I want to try out your small tube driver. Are they expensive? What are they again? and adapters
> 
> I'm quite pleased with the sound of Vokshod 6N23P as drivers in Elise. Tight and punchy.


 
  
 Hello UT and everyone. I thought I'd bring these two drivers back into the spotlight where they deserve to be. I have been struggling to put the sound of these into words, and to choose which one is better. In short, they both do nothing wrong and surpass all else I've tried.
  
RCA 12AV7​  ​  ​  
 These small unsuspecting looking gems are world-class performers, nearly unwavering in their ability to bring the best out of any power tube. These little RCA's came out on top of my list with every set of power tubes I've paired them with, from standard to coveted rare tubes alike: GEC 6AS7G, GEC / RCA / Bendix 6080, TS 5998, and even quad EL3N. I've had both these and the Tungsram E80CC for over one month and it's not very often they come out. My entire Elise experience has become more of an _Elite_ experience, with greater enjoyment than ever before. These driver tubes really show you the character of your power tubes in their best light.
  
 They are basically faultless and do nothing wrong. Impeccable dynamics / PRaT / bass quantity and definition (no question the best driver tube I've ever tried in this department). Fantastically silky and vivid mids. Spot on treble. Immaculate layering / imaging. Crisp, sparkling details. The soundstage somehow manages to be both large yet somewhat 'front row' at the same time, for a very engaging presentation. And the tone is absolutely perfect.
  
 I have also spent many hours doing countless comparisons of these to all my other driver tubes: 6 pairs of 6SN7, EL3N, and 4 other miniature drivers. Compared to all of my 6SN7's even including the GE 6SN7 GTA, Ken-Rad VT-231 and mint condition 'Bad Boy's, these win on basically all fronts: the difference is that these consistently have the most realistic, tightest dynamics / PRaT (just right not overdone), are more vivid and detailed in a very good way. Switching back to any of my 6SN7's I may get a slightly larger sense of spaciousness, but 9/10 times those are just too 'soft' / laid back and even borderlining hollow-ish compared to these RCA 12AV7's. Having literally tried at least 24 pairs of widely varying 6SN7's over the years, I can say with 100% confidence that these (along with the below mentioned Tungsrams) out perform the entire class of 6SN7's hands down. I've also tried FDD20 and C3G drivers in the past, neither of which competed IMO.
  
 And if that's not enough, not only do these pair well with basically any powers, but they also pair well with headphones too. Having tried these both with HD-650, ATH-R70x and SoundMagic HP-100, these (and the Tungsrams) always give the best sound. For me, this tube has a steadfast spot in the Elise driver seat and is irreplaceable.
  
TUNGSRAM E80CC​ ​ THESE are the other miniature drivers that have been propelling my Elise to a new level of enjoyment. Jawdropping sonic brilliance of the 3rd dimension. Immaculate, superb, sweet and as lifelike as someone whispering in your ear. These have all the strengths of the above RCA's in terms of bringing out the best of all power tubes _(with the only exception of quad EL3N)_, being detailed and pairing beautifully with all headphones. However the difference here is that these have a more realistic / organic and sweet sound and sense of air, in place of the perfect bass of the RCA's. Don't get me wrong, these have wonderful bass, in more of a liquid way, but slightly less in true definition and amount than the above. I find myself using these for acoustic / analogue recordings and the RCA's for electronic, pop and most rock.
  
 These also basically do nothing wrong, and after a month I still can't choose my favorite between these two miniature drivers. Each has their own strengths and I find myself simply alternating between the two paired with various powers, depending on the album.
  
@richard89 - You've recently asked me by PM about which 'Bad Boy' 6SN7 tube looks genuine. Being an owner of a genuine Bay Boy 6SN7 bought from a reliable source and having compared them several times to the above, I will tell you in answer to your question to please save yourself the time of hunting those tubes down and get the RCA 12AV7's for about 1/8th the price. I guarantee you'll be glad you did, and as an added bonus the 12AV7 adapters will give you more tube rolling options with that tube class.
  
@UntilThen asks are they cheap? Well I'd call it a steal-deal for both Tungsrams and RCA's at only around $8 per tube, which is about the going price right now. You just need a pair of these adapters first for $20, which work for both of the above: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201320842633
  
 I am very grateful to whoever it was (I think @HOWIE13) that countered the notion that 12A_7 tubes won't work on the Elise. And you are the other lucky owner of the Tungsram E80CC's, with the RCA 12AV7's on the way. Any recent thoughts on these driver tubes?
  
 PS- If no RCA 12AV7's are available just go with the RCA 12AU7, 12AX7 or 12AZ7's which are identical except for gain factor.
 PPS- If you recall a few weeks ago when my Elise was acting up due to a 'Frankenstein' setup, the above Tunsgram's were part of my 'remedy' to 'bring her back to life'. So have no fear these drivers shall show no trace of trouble on your Elise.


----------



## DecentLevi

Also @UntilThen you mentioned you've got the Voshkod 6N23P _(uses the ECC88 adapter)_. I must say those are similar to the top reputed miniature driver tubes! Of the 6 pairs of miniature drivers I've compared the above two with, one of them was Reflektor 6N23P. I've recently become a bit of an expert on being able to tell which are the 'holy grail' ones, which are supposed to be the Reflektor Single Wire Silver Shield version made in 1975. The ones I got were from 1985 and not the reputed holy grails, which IMO sounded unbearably bright. If you don't mind, would you upload a few detailed photos of the internals of yours, and mention the year of manufacture? This way I can help you determine how close yours is to the best-of version.
  
 PS - @richard89 you recently asked me a few questions by PM and I barely even remembered that you are an Elise owner. By all means, PLEASE don't be shy and go ahead and join our fun community! You're also likely to get better / more diverse answers from a group than just by asking one person.


----------



## UntilThen

lacuffia said:


> New Elise owner here (via trade from a great guy and fellow head fi member Spork67)....
> 
> It is amazing - adds a new dimension to music: lush and expansive, punchy, detailed, etc. Had a Little Dot Mkiii before, and while good, the Elise is a whole different beast.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Welcome LC. Glad you like Elise. Elise is immensely tuneable. You've inherited the tubes Spork bought. Great sounding tubes for a start. Continue to share your experience here.
  
 Would love to know what you think of the Beyer T1 with Elise.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 I certainly share your enthusiasm for the 9 pin Novals as drivers in Elise. They have a particular clarity and purity of sound as well as, yes, 'tight dynamics' expresses it well.
 Other tubes have greater euphony and sound-stage, if your music requires it-but for instrumental they can be excellent.
  
 Remember though, in order to use a 12V heater voltage tube in Elise, such as 12AU7 or  E80CC,  you need a 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter like this one:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-12AU7-12AX7-to-6SL7-6SN7-tube-converter-adapter-/201320842633?hash=item2edfa84589:g:ge4AAOSw~gRVuNUb
  
 E80CC tubes are very detailed, dynamic sounding tubes -one that is a bit sweeter, with a slightly more forward 'mid'  than the Tungsram is the Valvo, though it doesn't have quite the 'presence' of the Tungsram. Valvo is better suited for a mellower sound.
  
  
 EDIT: Apologies for repeating the link for the adapter-I didn't remember DL had already given it- never mind, it's probably worth repeating, anyway.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi @DecentLevi thanks for the long write up on RCA 12AV7 and Tungsram E80CC tubes and the link for the adapters. I may try the 12AV7.
  
 I have the Vokshod Russian Rocket Logo 1975. I am not sure if it's Reflector. This tube is vivid, bright and has a solid bass for such a tiny size. Even though it sizzles in sound, I can't say I prefer it over some of the 6SN7s that I have. IMO 6sn7 are hard to beat. It's the reason why Elise was design with 6sn7 and 6as7 compliments.
  
 I do know why you prefer the small tubes. You have a preference for vivid and brighter sound signature. I think if you use a headphone that is brighter than hd650 (such as the T1), you wouldn't need to be chasing such small tubes. Nevertheless as I say, I do like the 6N23P. I don't consider it as my favourite but it's useful when I want to dial in some brightness, vividness to the tone.
  
 Here's a picture of my Vokshod 6N23P


----------



## HOWIE13

@Oskari
  
 Thanks for the helpful info about Telefunken EL11 tubes' date codes..
  
 None of mine has any numbers on the glass, presumably rubbed off over time. They only have the big white numbers on the base which don't seem to correspond to any of the date codes, unfortunately. 
  
 I can't find any reference to what they might mean either.


----------



## UntilThen

Well my EL11 adapters have arrived from Mrs Xu Ling but the Telefunken EL11s are no where in sight.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Hi @DecentLevi thanks for the long write up on RCA 12AV7 and Tungsram E80CC tubes and the link for the adapters. I may try the 12AV7.
> 
> I have the Vokshod Russian Rocket Logo 1975. I am not sure if it's Reflector. This tube is vivid, bright and has a solid bass for such a tiny size. Even though it sizzles in sound, I can't say I prefer it over some of the 6SN7s that I have. IMO 6sn7 are hard to beat. It's the reason why Elise was design with 6sn7 and 6as7 compliments.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is all very true. The smaller tubes do benefit warmer cans though there are many instances of instrumental Classical which have been recorded in an inappropriately overly resonant, warm acoustic and where even my T1 benefits from the smaller tubes. Mind you, I'm using Generation 2- this might not apply to Generation 1, particularly the early iteration.
  
 Mention of the 6N23P. This is one tube that lots of people like but which I could never warm to. I've used several versions of it too. I find it over aggressive and forward- almost 'steely' and hard in sound. Just my ears I guess, as so many folk sing its praises.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Well my EL11 adapters have arrived from Mrs Xu Ling but the Telefunken EL11s are no where in sight.


 
 That's a pain-it's usually the China Post which is slow.


----------



## HOWIE13

lacuffia said:


> It was no problem ...just got a step up/down transformer and works great.
> 
> Re tubes... I tried the 6 pak Phillips configuration even though I was a bit apprehensive. It looks scary! I am not sure there is any improvement over just using the 5998 as power tubes but will test further at some point. I am not one for too much experimentation.


 
 Welcome!
  
 You say you are not one for too much experimentation. Well, since you have started with arguably one of the best combos of tubes, I don't think you will need to experiment much anyway, which is great!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 Good luck with Elise and enjoy the thread.


----------



## whirlwind

lacuffia said:


> New Elise owner here (via trade from a great guy and fellow head fi member Spork67)....
> 
> It is amazing - adds a new dimension to music: lush and expansive, punchy, detailed, etc. Had a Little Dot Mkiii before, and while good, the Elise is a whole different beast.
> 
> ...


 
 Is the Z1R 64 Ohm  Dynamic driver ?


----------



## LaCuffia

Yes...the Z1R is pretty easy to drive. Sounds good straight from an iPhone but I have a Mojo and makes it that much better.

I noticed with the stock Tung Sol drivers the sound was a bit too bass heavy.


----------



## connieflyer

Just a point of reference, when I used the Ember amp, I rolled all of the 12_7 tubes and found the 12at7's were the best followed by the 12ax7.  The 12av7 was my least favorite. It seemed lifeless and one note. Now I had the HD 650's at this time, and they did brightened up the sound some as well as rolling in the Tungsram E80c, which I found to be preferable. But when I bought the HD700 phones these were too bright, went to the 6Sn7 tube and was much more solid across the frequency band. Now enter Elise and the ball game changed again. The Elise is much better in all regimes than the Ember, and the selection of tubes makes a larger difference. But then bought the T1's and now the Senn 800 and there is no comparison to what I heard with the hd650. The 650's are dark and centered around the mid-range, rolled off high and low is slightly muddy. I think if dl would get a better headphone if would make more difference than rolling tubes. Headphones are no different than speaker systems. No matter how good the signal chain is, if the last piece is not up to the standards of the rest of the system it just won't perform as well as possible. Low performing speakers will result in an overall low quality of sound.  Not that the 650's are bad, it is just that they do not perform anywhere near the T1's or 800.  If you get a chance to compare side by side you can see that upgrading the phones makes a much bigger difference than rolling tubes.  I know, tubes are cheaper, than a good phone, but figure out what you have spent chasing more performance and you will see a pair of T1' or 800 sitting on your desk. Save up for the phones, and then start tube rolling to adjust the sound the way you like. People review there findings on various tubes, and will swear that this or that combo is the best available, but it may not be for you.  Thread carefully, look back at all the previous reviews and you will see that people always have found nirvana with each new combo. Take if all with a grain of salt. So many times in the past, I fell for the latest and greatest only to find it was okay, but not enough of a difference to have that eureka moment. Some combos are better than others to be sure, but you have to have a good reference point. Sooner or later you will upgrade your phones and find out things sound different, and wonder about the new sound, why the old tube combos don't sound the same.  They should sound different, it is the phones. If you can not find an outlet that has a lot of phones to demo, try a store selling speaker systems, and notice that how different the speakers sound from one another, yet the rest of the signal chain remained the same. The end of the chain is the transducer, if it isn't there, the you will  know it. As always YMMV


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Just a point of reference, when I used the Ember amp, I rolled all of the 12_7 tubes and found the 12at7's were the best followed by the 12ax7.  The 12av7 was my least favorite. It seemed lifeless and one note. Now I had the HD 650's at this time, and they did brightened up the sound some as well as rolling in the Tungsram E80c, which I found to be preferable. But when I bought the HD700 phones these were too bright, went to the 6Sn7 tube and was much more solid across the frequency band. Now enter Elise and the ball game changed again. The Elise is much better in all regimes than the Ember, and the selection of tubes makes a larger difference. But then bought the T1's and now the Senn 800 and there is no comparison to what I heard with the hd650. The 650's are dark and centered around the mid-range, rolled off high and low is slightly muddy. I think if dl would get a better headphone if would make more difference than rolling tubes. Headphones are no different than speaker systems. No matter how good the signal chain is, if the last piece is not up to the standards of the rest of the system it just won't perform as well as possible. Low performing speakers will result in an overall low quality of sound.  Not that the 650's are bad, it is just that they do not perform anywhere near the T1's or 800.  If you get a chance to compare side by side you can see that upgrading the phones makes a much bigger difference than rolling tubes.  I know, tubes are cheaper, than a good phone, but figure out what you have spent chasing more performance and you will see a pair of T1' or 800 sitting on your desk. Save up for the phones, and then start tube rolling to adjust the sound the way you like. People review there findings on various tubes, and will swear that this or that combo is the best available, but it may not be for you.  Thread carefully, look back at all the previous reviews and you will see that people always have found nirvana with each new combo. Take if all with a grain of salt. So many times in the past, I fell for the latest and greatest only to find it was okay, but not enough of a difference to have that eureka moment. Some combos are better than others to be sure, but you have to have a good reference point. *Sooner or later you will upgrade your phones and find out things sound different, and wonder about the new sound, why the old tube combos don't sound the same.  They should sound different, it is the phones*. If you can not find an outlet that has a lot of phones to demo, try a store selling speaker systems, and notice that how different the speakers sound from one another, yet the rest of the signal chain remained the same. The end of the chain is the transducer, if it isn't there, the you will  know it. As always YMMV


 
  
 Absolutely agree, and soon, when we purchase Elise V2, which apparently sounds quite different from V1, we may rue the fact we sold all those tubes that didn't work so well with Elise V1.
  
 Oh dear..


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> Just a point of reference, when I used the Ember amp, I rolled all of the 12_7 tubes and found the 12at7's were the best followed by the 12ax7.  The 12av7 was my least favorite. It seemed lifeless and one note. Now I had the HD 650's at this time, and they did brightened up the sound some as well as rolling in the Tungsram E80c, which I found to be preferable. But when I bought the HD700 phones these were too bright, went to the 6Sn7 tube and was much more solid across the frequency band. Now enter Elise and the ball game changed again. The Elise is much better in all regimes than the Ember, and the selection of tubes makes a larger difference. *But then bought the T1's and now the Senn 800 and there is no comparison to what I heard with the hd650. The 650's are dark and centered around the mid-range, rolled off high and low is slightly muddy. I think if dl would get a better headphone if would make more difference than rolling tubes. Headphones are no different than speaker systems. No matter how good the signal chain is, if the last piece is not up to the standards of the rest of the system it just won't perform as well as possible. Low performing speakers will result in an overall low quality of sound.  Not that the 650's are bad, it is just that they do not perform anywhere near the T1's or 800.  If you get a chance to compare side by side you can see that upgrading the phones makes a much bigger difference than rolling tubes. * I know, tubes are cheaper, than a good phone, but figure out what you have spent chasing more performance and you will see a pair of T1' or 800 sitting on your desk. Save up for the phones, and then start tube rolling to adjust the sound the way you like. People review there findings on various tubes, and will swear that this or that combo is the best available, but it may not be for you.  Thread carefully, look back at all the previous reviews and you will see that people always have found nirvana with each new combo. Take if all with a grain of salt. So many times in the past, I fell for the latest and greatest only to find it was okay, but not enough of a difference to have that eureka moment. Some combos are better than others to be sure, but you have to have a good reference point. Sooner or later you will upgrade your phones and find out things sound different, and wonder about the new sound, why the old tube combos don't sound the same.  They should sound different, it is the phones. If you can not find an outlet that has a lot of phones to demo, try a store selling speaker systems, and notice that how different the speakers sound from one another, yet the rest of the signal chain remained the same. The end of the chain is the transducer, if it isn't there, the you will  know it. As always YMMV


 
 Agree with this, the HD-650 is a great headphone but is not in the same class as the HD-800, T1 and even HD-700 and HE-560.
  
 Back to the Ember, I actually like 12AU7 best.


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm wracking my brain here but I don't remember us ever discussing the 12AV7 tube on the Ember site. First I learned of the existence of the 12AV7 tube was a few weeks ago here when DL mentioned it. Sorry I missed an opportunity to try 12AV7 in Ember, must have missed a few posts when it was being discussed-it is a big thread though..


----------



## DavidA

howie13 said:


> I'm wracking my brain here but I don't remember us ever discussing the 12AV7 tube on the Ember site. First I learned of the existence of the 12AV7 tube was a few weeks ago here when DL mentioned it. Sorry I missed an opportunity to try 12AV7 in Ember, must have missed a few posts-it was a big thread though..


 
 I'm like you, don't remember seeing 12AV7 being discussed in the Ember thread


----------



## connieflyer

I don't remember it being discussed , I tried them along with all the other 12_7 tubes just found it kind of flat and boring not worth discussing.


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer. Your post is one of the best and most sensible I have read in a long time. I progressed from HD598, to HD700 and then HD800S vs T1Gen2. It was a difficult choice but finally settled on the S. In my experience headphones always made the biggest difference with the possible exception of my move from LD MDIVSE to Elise. Having once settled on my DAC, amp and headphones I then spent a fair amount of money (sometimes foolishly) on tubes. But judging from my experience and what I read from you and others, those of us lucky to own either versions of the T1 or HD800 headphones seem to have discovered that tube-rolling now is more a luxury or a hobby endeavor than what is really necessary to enjoy countless hours of rediscovering all of our old favorites and discovering wonderful new recordings.
  
 Of course it is tempting to think about the Utopias or perhaps other highly regarded headphones. For me the Utopia is way above my pay grade as a poor conductor. And of course, the Elise MK2 is probably a temptation many of us may succumb to. But I am at the point where I don't feel I'm missing anything. I realize that @hypnos1will not allow me to remain in this state of (what I'm sure he considers) ignorance


----------



## connieflyer

At some point I would like to try the el11 tubes and also the new Elise but for now I'm quite happy and satisfied that I'm not missing much with the Elise that I have, rolling in other tubes does make a difference but it's not like night and day some better than others but even the ones that are not the best still sound really good so now just waiting for FA to bring out the new Elise


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> At some point I would like to try the *al11 tubes* and also the new release but for now I'm quite happy and satisfied that I'm not missing much with the list that I have rolling in other tubes does make a difference but it's not like night and day summer better than others but even the ones that are not the best still sound really good so now just waiting for fa to bring out the new Elise


 
 I am so sorry but I bought all the AL11s known to exist. They are like night and day. Eat your heart out


----------



## connieflyer

You caught that before I changed it back to e11. Fingers Ark working well this morning. But then not many other parts are doing all that well either except the ears!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> You caught that before I changed it back to e11. Fingers Ark working well this morning. But then not many other parts are doing all that well either except the ears!


 

 As a good friend of mine likes to say, the mind is always the second thing to go. I guess we can at least feel lucky we still have our ears


----------



## connieflyer

Do me a favor and don't ask your friend what else is going to go wrong thanks


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Do me a favor and don't ask your friend what else is going to go wrong thanks


 

 I did, but he said after the first thing goes, what does it matter !!!!


----------



## connieflyer

Does he specify what the first thing was now that my mind has gone I can't remember what went first


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Does he specify what the first thing was now that my mind has gone I can't remember what went first


 

 He couldn't remember either. His wife said we were behaving like a couple of teenagers. She suggested we pull out our walkers, go out for a stroll and find a park bench to sit on


----------



## connieflyer

Wow nothing like parking your strollers for excitement


----------



## pctazhp

Which reminds me. An old man was sitting on a park bench crying profusely. A young guy saw him and asked him why he was so sad. The elderly gentleman explained that he was married to a gorgeous,to-die-for, 21-year old blond. He said she wanted to make love all day long and catered to his every desire. The young kid then asked him how he could possibly be so sad. To which the old man said he couldn't remember where he lived !!!!
  
 Apologize for the stupidity of this post. Even worse, I think it is a repeat


----------



## connieflyer

Ahhh,life is but a repeat. Which reminds me of time I was sitting on a bench and Along came a beautiful blonde sat next to me and I was smitten. I spoke to her and told her that if she allowed me to take her up to my penthouse apartment we would make love together for hours and it would be like nothing had ever moved her before. She then pulled a hair out of my head and I asked her why did you do that. And she answered figuratively speaking I am beating your brains out. Enough said


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
_"Mention of the 6N23P. This is one tube that lots of people like but which I could never warm to. I've used several versions of it too. I find it over aggressive and forward- almost 'steely' and hard in sound. Just my ears I guess, as so many folk sing its praises."_
  
 Same impression here. Never had much luck with small signal tubes in the Elise. Either they hum, or sound too bright. I have the 6N23P from 1975 and maybe a dozen 6DJ8 and 12X7 varieties. But then I listen through speakers and not headphones.....


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @connieflyer. Your post is one of the best and most sensible I have read in a long time. I progressed from HD598, to HD700 and then HD800S vs T1Gen2. It was a difficult choice but finally settled on the S. In my experience headphones always made the biggest difference with the possible exception of my move from LD MDIVSE to Elise. Having once settled on my DAC, amp and headphones I then spent a fair amount of money (sometimes foolishly) on tubes. But judging from my experience and what I read from you and others, those of us lucky to own either versions of the T1 or HD800 headphones seem to have discovered that tube-rolling now is more a luxury or a hobby endeavor than what is really necessary to enjoy countless hours of rediscovering all of our old favorites and discovering wonderful new recordings.
> 
> Of course it is tempting to think about the Utopias or perhaps other highly regarded headphones. For me the Utopia is way above my pay grade as a poor conductor. And of course, the Elise MK2 is probably a temptation many of us may succumb to. But I am at the point where I don't feel I'm missing anything. I realize that @hypnos1will not allow me to remain in this state of (what I'm sure he considers) ignorance


 
  
 Hi pct.
  
@connieflyer is indeed absolutely right. And I would add that excessively OTT descriptions of non-standard tubes should *always* be qualified by...*in the particular system used, and according to one's own ears and preferences.* This is the only true validity that can be attributed to any such descriptions lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 But, mon ami..."ignorance is bliss", no?....*NO, NON, NEIN, NIET, NA!!!!...Trust me!*








...


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Thanks for the helpful info about Telefunken EL11 tubes' date codes..
> 
> None of mine has any numbers on the glass, presumably rubbed off over time. They only have the big white numbers on the base which don't seem to correspond to any of the date codes, unfortunately.
> 
> I can't find any reference to what they might mean either.




I think it's a batch identifier.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> I think it's a batch identifier.


 
 Yes I was thinking along those lines too, but I couldn't think of a suitable description. 'Batch identifier' sounds just right. Thanks.


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hi pct.
> 
> @connieflyer is indeed absolutely right. And I would add that excessively OTT descriptions of non-standard tubes should *always* be qualified by...*in the particular system used, and according to one's own ears and preferences.* This is the only true validity that can be attributed to any such descriptions lol
> 
> ...


 

 You are my fearless leader. I trust you. I trust you


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> You are my fearless leader. I trust you. I trust you


 
  
 Aahh, my dear pct....let's just hope this poor conductor hasn't been turning up the voltage _too_ much lol!...I don't think so, at least...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Time to check once more with Loreena's DVD "Nights at the Alhambra"...magical...(and a good opportunity to study voice and instrument positioning, amongst other factors...er, no...am just gonna _enjoy_ it this time - one can overdo the analysis thing, for sure!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Over and out...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## mordy

After having spent breathtaking time with the GEC 6AS7 and the Tung Sol 5998 combos, I decided to give the Bendix 6080WB a chance in the power seat.
  
 First I tried the Bendix with the RCA 6SN7GTB top heater wire unsung heroes (THWUH in short, or even shorter UH), but that did not sound truly great - switched to the tried and true Austrian Royal Guard EL3N;  sounded quite good.
  
 As much as I tried to like the Bendix tubes I could not get a OTT feeling for them. They are very good but do not trump the GEC6AS7 and TS5998 tubes which add a special energy to everything else. In comparison the Bendix are a little bland. However, if I did not have others to compare with, it would be a top tier tube.
  
 I use the the TS 5998 with the RCA 6SN7GTB UH. This combo has tremendous impact and dynamics. Truly engaging and cannot be relegated to background music lol.
  
 The GEC 6AS7 I use with the EL3N - great energy and sweetness; does everything right and beautifully energetic or energetically beautiful (depends on mood).
  
 The 5998 stuns and catches your attention;  the GEC makes you happy  and grinning from ear to ear.......
  
  OTT? Hyperbole?
  
 Jaguar E Type vs Chevrolet Corvette?


----------



## richard89

Hey all, I've been browsing the thread and saw GE 6080's being praised. I tried to find them on eBay and thought they would be more expensive. Are these the same GE 6080's that everyone is talking about here?:
  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PIECES-PREMIUM-QUAD-6080WC-NOS-NIB-421A-6080-6AS7G-GENERAL-ELECTRIC-TUBES-/400925504686?hash=item5d5905b4ae:g:3lYAAOSwpdpVYUz~


----------



## DecentLevi

richard89 said:


> Hey all, I've been browsing the thread and saw GE 6080's being praised. I tried to find them on eBay and thought they would be more expensive. Are these the same GE 6080's that everyone is talking about here?:
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PIECES-PREMIUM-QUAD-6080WC-NOS-NIB-421A-6080-6AS7G-GENERAL-ELECTRIC-TUBES-/400925504686?hash=item5d5905b4ae:g:3lYAAOSwpdpVYUz~


 

 There has certaintly been a lot of buzz about RCA 6080 power tubes, and rightfully so. My testing has shown these, IMHO, to perform a good 70% as good as the sought after GEC 6AS7G's, at only 1/33rd the price! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Although those GE 6080's appear to have a somewhat similar construction as the RCA's, I would definitely go with the RCA's for the ultimate price/performance ratio of power tubes. Here is a link to a great looking pair for only $12


----------



## connieflyer

Those are the wc you want the wb's


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh I see, you _were _referring to the GE rather than the RCA's. Well I have both and I'll tell you with utmost certainty that the RCA's are in a completely different league in terms of overall performance / fidelity and especially bass quality. My GE's have been shelved so long I have forgotten about them, and when my RCA 6080's arrived I was blown away at how well they perform against tubes much more expensive such as slotted graphite plate Bendix 6080 and Mullards, to the point where I sometimes forgot which I was listening to. Go withe the RCA 8080's and you won't regret it


----------



## richard89

Thanks Levi and connieflyer. And thanks for the link Levi although I have already managed to snag some RCAs from eBay at that same price for a pair that tested strong but was not 'matched'. Pretty excited to receive them and a whole bunch of other tubes I've been putting in orders for.


----------



## DecentLevi

WELL I JUST GOT MY EL11 ADAPTERS AND AM NOW USING THE RFT EL12N's AS DRIVERS WITH GEC 6AS7G AS POWERS. AND I AM SUSPENDED IN DISBELIEF THAT MY ELISE COULD POSSIBLY SOUND THIS OTHERWORLDLY!!! I could only hope I may ever find a way to describe what transfixing audio euphoria I am experiencing and find a way to possibly come down from this cloud in audio-heaven that I've somehow mysteriously landed in... wondering what may I have possibly done to deserve this presentation I'm hearing?!?!?!?!?!?!


----------



## DecentLevi

Now I had just switched the RFT EL12N's as powers, and much to my total bewilderment, these perform even better as powers than drivers - AND - seem to out perform all other drivers AND powers I have ever tried in the Elise, hands down!!!!! I first tried them as drivers knowing they were normally used as powers, but seeing how Howie13 had been able to use them on both sides, thought I'd give it a try.
  
 Folks it will take some time to surmise the beauty of these tubes' sound, but I will tell you it's looking extremely promising that these EL12's work as BOTH drivers AND powers, and best even the brown base GEC 6AS7G / 421A powers, and as drivers best even the miniature tubes I have tried thus far.
  
 Still on the way are my EL11's as well


----------



## Oskari

richard89 said:


> Hey all, I've been browsing the thread and saw GE 6080's being praised. I tried to find them on eBay and thought they would be more expensive. Are these the same GE 6080's that everyone is talking about here?:
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PIECES-PREMIUM-QUAD-6080WC-NOS-NIB-421A-6080-6AS7G-GENERAL-ELECTRIC-TUBES-/400925504686?hash=item5d5905b4ae:g:3lYAAOSwpdpVYUz~




About this seller: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=271138

P.S. Just in case there's somebody that doesn't know this: GE ≠ GEC.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> @DecentLevi
> 
> I certainly share your enthusiasm for the 9 pin Novals as drivers in Elise. They have a particular clarity and purity of sound as well as, yes, 'tight dynamics' expresses it well.
> Other tubes have greater euphony and sound-stage, if your music requires it-but for instrumental they can be excellent.
> ...


 
  
 Yup that's a link to the same 12AV7 adapter I'm using. I also think you nailed it with your description of those tall miniature Tungsram E80CC drivers tubes: sweet, somewhat mid focused and with a great 'presence'. I would also add they excel at sounding organic / natural, smooth and detailed. Still world class drivers, even after just trying the EL12's as drivers - each have their own strengths as top performers but I _may _be giving a hat's-off to the EL12's.


untilthen said:


> Hi @DecentLevi thanks for the long write up on RCA 12AV7 and Tungsram E80CC tubes and the link for the adapters. I may try the 12AV7.
> 
> I have the Vokshod Russian Rocket Logo 1975. I am not sure if it's Reflector. This tube is vivid, bright and has a solid bass for such a tiny size. Even though it sizzles in sound, I can't say I prefer it over some of the 6SN7s that I have. IMO 6sn7 are hard to beat. It's the reason why Elise was design with 6sn7 and 6as7 compliments.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well I've just done a careful comparison of your Voshkod 6N23P's to my two pairs and to photos of the holy grail version, and unfortunately it turns out yours have the same construction as mine -  the same as my favorite of the two, but yes that particular design is quite bright. The 'holy grail' 1975 Single Wire Silver Shield version has a few internal differences and may sound quite different. (mine is incoming). I would agree that many of the miniature driver tubes have a more vivid sound signature, but not that they are all inherently bright. I have heard 6SN7's that were brighter than most '9-pin Novals', but in general, especially with the RCA 12AV7's, I've found them to be very linear and almost transparent. 
  
 "Vivid" is actually a thing that many of us hi-fi audio enthusiasts seek, as it also relates to detailed / realistic / up front, and as I'm just now finding, is one of the best attributes of the RFT EL12's that many of us are already glowing about.


----------



## JazzVinyl

If there are any old timers' here who loved the band "Traffic" and Steve Winwood's vocals...

Check out the 1976 LP "GO" which was an attempt at an international supergroup.

It had:

Stomu Yamashta (percussion and keyboards) 
Steve Winwood (vocals and keyboards) 
Al Di Meola (lead guitar) 
Klaus Schulze (synthesizers)
Michael Shrieve (drums)

It's well worth your time if your in to New Age and or Spacey Jazz offerings.

Cheers!

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3lDZ9MPFLs[/VIDEO]


.


----------



## LaCuffia

JazzVinyl....like the your name - big fan of jazz and vinyl

Do you by any chance have any Music Matters Blue Note reissues? They sound incredible, especially with the Elise.


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 Them EL12 tubes, are they 1.2A?
  
 If so, there may be a problem using them as drivers with 2.5A power tubes since the current draw would exceed the Elise's rating.
  
 Obviously, using them as power tubes presents no problem.


----------



## DecentLevi

mordy said:


> Hi DL,
> 
> Them EL12 tubes, are they 1.2A?
> 
> ...


 
  
 What can I say, it works, and sounds spectacular as drivers, and is hum-free. I have a hypothesis that even if tubes go over Elises' current draw _on paper_, in reality it should be OK because technically an amp that puts out only, let's say, 7.2ah isn't able to put out any more, so anything that exceeds the current draw should still cap out at 7.2 anyway. 
  
 Perhaps my all time favorite now is RFT EL12N drivers + quad EL3N powers (6ah total draw)


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> What can I say, it works, and sounds spectacular as drivers, and is hum-free. I have a hypothesis that even if tubes go over Elises' current draw _on paper_, in reality it should be OK because technically an amp that puts out only, let's say, 7.2ah isn't able to put out any more, so anything that exceeds the current draw should still cap out at 7.2 anyway.
> 
> Perhaps my all time favorite now is RFT EL12N drivers + quad EL3N powers (6ah total draw)


 
 Going to London for a couple of days to visit my daughter but when I come back I must try that. Like Mordy said I had avoided using EL12 as drivers because of potential current issues but that combo sounds very interesting.
  
 Have you had a chance to try any EL11 tubes yet? I like them very much as drivers- not tried them as power tubes.
  
  Just now I'm enjoying EL12 powers and EL11 drivers,(one tube per channel).


----------



## HOWIE13

richard89 said:


> Hey all, I've been browsing the thread and saw GE 6080's being praised. I tried to find them on eBay and thought they would be more expensive. Are these the same GE 6080's that everyone is talking about here?:
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PIECES-PREMIUM-QUAD-6080WC-NOS-NIB-421A-6080-6AS7G-GENERAL-ELECTRIC-TUBES-/400925504686?hash=item5d5905b4ae:g:3lYAAOSwpdpVYUz~


 
 Hi richard 89.
  
 When I read your post I just wondered if you were thinking about the GEC 6080 types of tubes. 
 I don't think the GE has had a lot of plaudits here, though I have a couple and it's a nice power tube in Elise, smooth and neutral, firm bass, good sound stage - not far from the Mullard 6080 in terms of sound.
 The GEC is quite another matter and much more expensive. I don't have one.
  
 Apologies if I've misunderstood your question, just wanting to clarify and help if I can.


----------



## UntilThen

Hey guys I just bought a pair of EL12N and adapters. If this doesn't sound good, I like to know who to blame.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 EL3N and 7236 sounding so good now I wonder why I'm buying more tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Hey guys I just bought a pair of EL12N and adapters. If this doesn't sound good, *I like to know who to blame.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> What can I say, it works, and sounds spectacular as drivers, and is hum-free. I have a hypothesis that even if tubes go over Elises' current draw _on paper_, in reality it should be OK because technically an amp that puts out only, let's say, 7.2ah isn't able to put out any more, so anything that exceeds the current draw should still cap out at 7.2 anyway.
> 
> Perhaps my all time favorite now is RFT EL12N drivers + quad EL3N powers (6ah total draw)


 

 DL:  I'm certain the Elise doesn't have circuitry that limits current draw to recommended limits. Just because the amp will work beyond recommended manufacturer limits, doesn't mean it is a good idea to do that. You may or may not be stressing your Elise with bad consequences down the road. But I doubt F-A established its recommend limit for the fun of it. Just saying


----------



## HOWIE13

The only previous experience I've had with using a tube of higher than specified heater current is accidently with Starlight. The amp just cut out. When I put in a correctly rated tube the amp could be switched on again and was fine. Presumably Starlight had a trip protection circuit or something like that.

No idea if Elise will do this but I'm not about to try.


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> Hey guys I just bought a pair of EL12N and adapters. If this doesn't sound good, I like to know who to blame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hmmm.. that would be either Howie or most recently me. That's just what I said about Howie, but so far I'm 'praising' him for the recommendation. 
  
 I thought you have a pair or EL11's on the way, right? EL12 + EL11 both use the EL11 to 6SN7 adapters on eBay from XuLing.
  
 To me it seems the EL12N, and perhaps also the various types of EL11's are functional as both drivers and powers, but just make sure to check the current load. IMO, of the Elises' max. recommended 6.8ah load limit, 7.2ah can be OK for medium-long durations and 7.4ah (such as EL11 drivers + 6AS7 powers) can be OK for medium-shorter term durations. But of course that's all based on speculation.
  
 ...or just as long as it's 'Humphrey' then all is well regardless, LOL


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> Hmmm.. that would be either Howie or most recently me. That's just what I said about Howie, but so far I'm 'praising' him for the recommendation.
> 
> I thought you have a pair or EL11's on the way, right? EL12 + EL11 both use the EL11 to 6SN7 adapters on eBay from XuLing.
> 
> ...


 

 We're all adults (well except for me). If we want we can throw the dice and take our chances (or not).


----------



## UntilThen

I was joking about blaming someone 

EL11 + EL12 is only 4.2a

We're stretching it at 6.8a as the max load limit because Lukasz told me the safe operating current draw is 6 to 6.5a. He says anything above is overheating the amp.

Using EL12 with 6AS7 is 7.4a. That's more than stretching it. I wouldn't recommend running this combo for the long haul. 

EL11 is the same as EL3N at 0.9a. We're quite safe running EL11 and 6AS7 at 6.8a.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Hmmm.. that would be either Howie or most recently me. That's just what I said about Howie, but so far I'm 'praising' him for the recommendation.
> 
> I thought you have a pair or EL11's on the way, right? EL12 + EL11 both use the EL11 to 6SN7 adapters on eBay from XuLing.
> 
> ...


 
  
 DL...sorry, but on behalf of Feliks-Audio (let alone the long haul I myself have spent nursing Elise to this point!) I feel I must ask you *NOT* to keep making *INCORRECT* assumptions and statements re. what may or may not be 'safe' regarding the loads placed on this amp.
  
 We who have rather more respect for F-A and their amp can make our own informed decisions on such matters/risks, but those newer to tube amps just _might_ possibly be tempted by your words to take risks that we would not. Feliks-Audio will *NOT* cover anyone pushing the amp beyond 7A heater draw, that is for certain. I myself would no longer be happy with "medium-long" durations with the 7A figure from 2x ECC31s and 2x 6AS7G/6080s for example. And to attempt to cover yourself with the statement "all based on speculation" does not lessen the irresponsible nature of your prior "IMO" statement.
  
 And your last sentence is even _*more*_ irresponsible!
  
 May I respectfully ask that you adhere to _*sensible, recommended, SAFE *_statements, before others - like yourself! - have unfortunate experiences with their amps, that from now on will NOT be looked upon favourably by Feliks-Audio..._*and with good reason!*_
  
 And so I say to all out there...PLEASE BE CAREFUL AND TREAT YOUR ELISE WITH DUE RESPECT...This amp is indeed very forgiving/versatile, but I advise you to follow the example/findings of those who have been here a good long while now, and who have shown through extensive trialling which "alternative" tubes have proved not to be causing any _obvious _harm to their amps. We do not have to restrict ourselves purely to 6SN7 drivers, for example, but we _*do*_ need to be _*extra*_ careful in our experimental 'rolling' lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Then we can all enjoy _safe_ HAPPY LISTENING!!...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## Frederick Rea

```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)] Hello everyone I follow this Elise thread and I like it very much, but it's time to say something for the good and credibility of what we write. We are not children to push our fingers into electrical outlets, but certain recent writings on experimentation without criterion go beyond the measurements Especially I refer to DL that in addition to using adjectives that can mislead us (exaggeration of opinion, without any foundation), every valve that fits in Elise is always (or almost) the best. For people who have not read from the beginning they will be able to interpret the statements made by DL as readable here, and simply burn all the work that has been written. Sorry for this outburst, but that's too much.[/color]
```


```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)] Cheers to all and make safe work for ELISE[/color]
```


----------



## Frederick Rea

Hello everyone
 I follow this Elise thread and I like it very much, but it's time to say something for the good and credibility of what we write.
 We are not children to push our fingers into electrical outlets, but certain recent writings on experimentation without criterion go beyond the measurements
 Especially I refer to DL that in addition to using adjectives that can mislead us (exaggeration of opinion, without any foundation), every valve that fits in Elise is always (or almost) the best. For people who have not read from the beginning they will be able to interpret the statements made by DL as readable here, and simply burn all the work that has been written. Sorry for this outburst, but that's too much.
 Cheers to all and make safe work for ELISE


----------



## pctazhp

frederick rea said:


> Hello everyone
> I follow this Elise thread and I like it very much, but it's time to say something for the good and credibility of what we write.
> We are not children to push our fingers into electrical outlets, but certain recent writings on experimentation without criterion go beyond the measurements
> Especially I refer to DL that in addition to using adjectives that can mislead us (exaggeration of opinion, without any foundation), every valve that fits in Elise is always (or almost) the best. For people who have not read from the beginning they will be able to interpret the statements made by DL as readable here, and simply burn all the work that has been written. Sorry for this outburst, but that's too much.
> Cheers to all and make safe work for ELISE


 

 Hi Frederick. Your words are strong, but I can't say they are unwarranted. I and others have tried to speak out against OTT language in the past. Words simply lose all meaning.
  
 More important is the danger of loose language regarding safety of operation.
  
 In both respects, I think it is important we keep in mind newcomers who can't be expected to go back through the history of this and the other two threads. I like to say that newcomers are the most important people on this thread.
  
 PS:  You are always very welcome here)))))


----------



## LaCuffia

As a newcomer, this type of discussion kind of makes me glad of my ignorance of tubes in general...it's a mash of numbers and letters. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




    At this point I know the difference between power and driver tubes, and have the Elise manual to tell me the compatible tubes.  Maybe that's all I need.  No mad scientist experiments for me.


----------



## JazzVinyl

lacuffia said:


> JazzVinyl....like the your name - big fan of jazz and vinyl
> 
> Do you by any chance have any Music Matters Blue Note reissues? They sound incredible, especially with the Elise.




Hello LaCuffia...

I do have some. I think they sound incredible with or without Elise in the food chain 

Also have some Nautilus 1/2 speed mastered LP's and they *REALLY* sound incredible. So much better than the original issues that you can scarcely believe your ears.

This one, for instance:

http://www.rarerecords.net/store/grover-washington-jr-winelight-nautilus-audiophile-lp/

Is worth its weight in gold 

Cheers!!


----------



## hypnos1

lacuffia said:


> As a newcomer, this type of discussion kind of makes me glad of my ignorance of tubes in general...it's a mash of numbers and letters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi LaCuffia...and apologies for the late welcome from myself - at least others have already made you welcome...(great guys that they are LOL!!).
  
 Am so glad you are already very happy with S67's Elise...now YOURS lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And your words are so true for anyone new to this wonderful amp. As has been said many times before, you don't _need_ to join us crazy guys in endless tube experimentation/hunting. A sound to please any but the most critical can be found easily and _relatively_ cheaply, without entering "It Never Ends" territory. But by the same token, those who do catch "the bug" can sometimes find their horizons expanding much further than ever imagined...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...there's room for all! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just take things at your own pace, and if you do at some time feel the urge to venture further into this intriguing hobby, I really do recommend you set aside some (or a LOT of!!) time to quietly go back over this, and possibly the other Elise threads...at your leisure - a lot of interesting and informative information has been condensed by folks who have a great deal of experience, knowledge and wisdom in most aspects surrounding tube amps...and other topics also!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But most of all, just ENJOY what this amp can do for sound reproduction...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## connieflyer

Welcome LaCuffia, hope you are enjoying your amp. I think you are going to find that this a very good amp, it has a lot of veratility and will give you much listening pleasure. A good bunch here and open to lots of experiences. If you have any questions, pleae feel free to sk. If we don't know the anwser, we are pretty good at making one up!


----------



## mordy

Flying high with EL11/EL12:


----------



## pctazhp

Guess who won Headfonic's Best Desktop Amp of 2016???
  
 http://headfonics.com/2016/12/our-top-gear-for-2016/


----------



## connieflyer

Could it be a Feliks Audio amp?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Could it be a Feliks Audio amp?


 

 WOW!!!! How did you guess ????


----------



## mordy

Noticed that Mrs Xu Ling now makes available dual EL11/12 adapters. Did anybody try dual EL12 as power tubes?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-EL11-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/192059623692?hash=item2cb7a5490c:g:aC4AAOSwJ7RYW8eI


----------



## pctazhp

So I just went out to get a Philly Cheese Steak at the eatery down the street. They play a virtual cornucopia of golden oldies. Today I heard this old Drifters song. It was really big at Phoenix Central High in 1960. I can still remember hearing it during lunch and dreaming of the day when I'd be listening to it through Elise.


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. You're being awfully quiet today. This one's for you:


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp He is quiet because he was perusing Tiny Tim's most famous operata


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer I assume you know that @UntilThen is going to block both you and me!!!!


----------



## connieflyer

He won't, he needs some weird in his life,and we provide it!


----------



## connieflyer

That we are!


----------



## DavidA

@pctazhp @connieflyer, love the music and banter you both provide 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks to all that gave me scotch recommendations last week, I also asked my good friend Bradley about the recommendations, this is what happened:  
  
 My friend Bradley who I had given one of my Louie XIII bottles brought it back over to Oahu last night after I was asking him about scotches the other day.  He brought it over last night since he was here for a meeting but I was surprised when he also had a Ballantine 30, Macallan 21 and a Suntory Yamazaki 18 that he got from our friend Tomo over 25 years ago.  I invited my drinking buddy Francis, old GF Jessica, and a new friend Sophia over to try the Louie and scotches.  I can now understand why scotch lovers crave these, the Ballantine is soooo smooth, like an excellent grand cue wine.  Had to cook up some Cajun Ribeye, spicy furikake crusted salmon and shrimp arabiata to go with these.  As much as I would have liked to keep them all, I felt that they were better kept with Bradley since he appreciates them much more than I, and if I ever wanted to drink them again I just have to fly to Hilo.


----------



## connieflyer

@David it is no wonder that you our hero!!!!


----------



## DecentLevi

CLARIFICATIONS -  PART ONE​  
 [size=small]Hello everybody, a few difficult topics to cover... but I thought I'd start out on a positive note that those new EL12's have been on my mind all day at work - it's the first time a tube has impressed me so much I look forward to it all day when I'm away. There's something special about it and it's definitely a unique internal design than the others - further exploration of these is sure to come.[/size]
 [size=small] [/size]
 [size=small]Well anyway I feel I must cover a few tricky topics from two pages back. There seems to be a surprising amount of misinterpretations about my recent posts or my style in general.[/size]
 [size=small] [/size]
 [size=small]First about the notion I've heard at least once along the lines of "every tube is the best" - I can definitely attest to my tube rolling journey being filled with many ups and downs. This misunderstanding may be actually due to the fact that the tubes I don't like (the _other _60%) are brushed aside and mentioned only in passing. I generally try to post positive things on this thread, so when you hear me glowing about how a new tube discovery is the best sound ever - that's because it really is - to me at the very least. Thanks to advice from such a diverse and brilliant group here and an external resource or two, I've been able to find rare tubes that push the Elise V1 to soaring heights. For example I had written about the RCA 6080 besting the GE 6080, which was bested by the GEC 6AS7G, which seems _possibly_ bested by the EL12. And the 6SN7 'Bad Boys' bested the stock drivers, which were bested by the RCA 12AV7. Many of my findings have been quite on-par with everybody else's findings including those and sonic descriptions of other tubes, also my findings even routinely match those of Howie13 - this alone shows good validity of hearing perception. [/size]
 [size=small] [/size]
 [size=small]All my reports are the work of meticulous, thorough and analytical listening, and the process I use to analyse the sound of each tube that I've mentioned before involves playing loops of well mastered lossless test songs of various genres and usually comparing it with more than one headphone, and more than one A/B with other tubes with the shortest safe delay time. The improvements I have found with tube rolling have been incremental steps up, and more or less consistent with findings of others.[/size]
 [size=small] [/size]
 [size=small]Next about my apparent OTT descriptions: To me it would seem that using less superlatives would fall short of conveying the whole experience to the reader. As is with most of us here, hi-fi audio experiences are more than just something that can be explained by science and sonic attributes alone. These sonic explorations are more of a personal experience, so describing the best sound I've ever heard as something like "linear, clean and extended" wouldn't really convey what I felt, such as "suspended in disbelief". The latter, my friends is truly how I felt, and I think was received well by at least some. It's possible I may have had a slightly off impression all along, but at least at some point in the early stages three threads back, the Elise threads were all about OTT superlatives, poems, analogies, etc. and for me, that's what caught my attention in the first place. Maybe I'm more of a dreamer or an abstract kind of guy, and an analytical listener as well, but that's just me. Sometimes you're so impressed with a sound that technical terms take a raincheck and all you're left with is an emotional description.[/size]
 [size=small] [/size]
 [size=small]Next a point was brought up about new tube discoveries casting a shadow on previous ones. Well I must say it is the nature of this hobby that things do become obsolete when something that is perceived superior takes hold. And this is a weekly, if not even daily fact of Head-Fi. This not only applies to tubes but all facets: cables, headphones, DACs, DAPs, amps, etc. And in my opinion this has more positive than negative - the experience of upgrading and having that next dimension in sound; and it can be especially advantageous to beginners because if they are fortunate enough to start at the end of a tube rolling thread, they just may be able to find their nirvana with just 1-2 setups rather than spending on dozens of past setups which have been largely declared obsolete. Also many of our unwanted tubes get resold, still giving these rare antiques a chance with another happy owner, and earning some of our money back.[/size]


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## DecentLevi

PART TWO - CURRENT LOAD LIMITS​  
Next I should explain what lead me to recently post about 'fudging' with the current draw of the Elise. This actually just came about yesterday when receiving my EL12 tubes. I discovered how flawlessly they perform as drivers - immaculate tone, clarity, etc., hum-free and Elise was not overheating. Then later discovering how I was at least 0.6ah over the load limit and how it was being handled with such seemingly flawless finesse with zero untoward signs, and also remembering how several of us have used tube combos in the past that drew 7.2ah... so I ventured a little and threw out a "hypothesis" that maybe... _just maybe_ any tubes that at are _supposed to_ go over the recommended current draw actually only receive the same amount of current as native class tubes, as if the Elise isn't able to put out more then, let's say 7.0ah current anyway. This may have come across wrong and I wasn't encouraging anyone to casually play around with this. Of course I may have been entirely wrong on this, but really just posted the idea in case it may have any merit or if there was any proof against that notion.
 
So that bit of humor I ended that post with "...or just as long as it's 'Humphrey' then all is well regardless, LOL" was intended as an "egg on me" kind of a joke rather than any kind of irresponsibility... trying to say how silly I would look if I would try any and all exotic tubes in the Elise going only by an apparent lack of hum to determine whether or not it's compatible.
 
Actually I happen to be approaching the end of my tube rolling journey with Elise nevertheless... It's been a fantastic and diverse journey, having tried many common and exotic tubes alike. I have just about two more pairs incoming and will likely stay with my top picks.
 
@Frederick Rea and @hypnos1 thanks for reading also


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> @UntilThen. You're being awfully quiet today. This one's for you:


 
  


connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp He is quiet because he was perusing Tiny Tim's most famous operata


 
  


pctazhp said:


> @connieflyer I assume you know that @UntilThen is going to block both you and me!!!!


 
  






 I guess you both miss me. I'm working mate. No time to post until the evening for me, which is your dream time.


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## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> I thought you have a pair or EL11's on the way, right? EL12 + EL11 both use the EL11 to 6SN7 adapters on eBay from XuLing.


 
  
 Correct. As well as EL12N and another pair of adapters. I'm aware that EL11 and EL12 uses the same adapter. Howie has been explicit about that in his review.


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## UntilThen

I have no problem with anyone posting impressions of tubes. There was a time I did a lot of that together with pictures. However combos that I deem good or great about a year ago, still remain my favourites. Examples are EL3N / Chatham 6AS7g and C3g / 5998 and Visseaux 6N7G / 5998. 
  
 New tubes that comes on the scene and sound great do not make those combos obsolete or dilute their good sonics. A good combo paired with the right gear and headphone will remain good with the passage of time.
  
 However I'm more concerned about 'throwing caution to the wind' when using combos that far exceeds the recommended load limit. Remember Lukasz told me the safe operating range is 6 to 6.5a. He further stress that anything above is at risk of overheating Elise. If you had stuck to 6sn7 and 6as7, that will come up to 6.2a. Most of us generally run EL3N and 6as7 which is at 6.8a. That's 0.3a above Lukasz recommendation but it's a safe load as far as I'm concerned. H1 and I, as well as several others have been running EL3N and 6as7 for close to a year with no detrimental effects. 
  
 There was once I tested 2x6sn7 and 4x6bl7 (7.2a) for a short duration. After 5 songs, I check the colour of the pcb by turning the amp upside down. I had checked before the test. After the test, the pcb is definitely a darker brown hue. It's like a sun tan. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Base on this, I would caution anyone trying to push the current draw above 7a.
  
 Be safe. Protect your Elise. You want it to function for several years. Enjoy your music.


----------



## DavidA

@DecentLevi, I feel that sometimes you are too positive and everything you try seems to be the best ever until the next set of tubes or combination is tried.  It might help if you or one of the other "Masters" of tube rolling made a chart with some of the various combinations but separate the list in to approved tubes, will work and under amp limit, and borderline combos.
  
@UntilThen, Agree that once a combo is considered great it would remain so over time, not just for the Elise but also for other amps in general like the BH Crack, ZDS, MicroZOTL and others that use both driver and power tubes or even those that also have tube rectifiers.  One thing I have noticed is that tubes that many consider great driver tubes for the Elise are great in many other amps like the Liquid Glass, EC Balancing Act, ZDS and WA22.


----------



## hypnos1

@DecentLevi.
  
 I appreciate the time you spent considering the points regarding your recent posts, and fully understand and appreciate (as do we all!) that _emotional_ responses to music are every bit as important and valid as more 'technical' descriptions....it's all a matter of _degree__!_  I'm afraid there reaches a point when _over__-_exuberance negates its value in the eyes of many.
  
 It also provides detractors the opportunity to (understandably and wrongly!) conclude : "with such a supposed accumulation of _vast_ improvements from stock, the amp's original sound must be dire"!!!...(and words to this effect have indeed been used by certain others lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Of course, most of us have indeed found (and shouted out loud!) that 'alternative' tubes _can_ bring 'improved' performance or, rather, a 'different' sound very often. But again, for our verdicts to be more _realistic_ and therefore believed and respected, it does require a certain 'tempering' of our statements...not quite as easy as it sounds alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . This notwithstanding, the_ *last*_ thing we all here want is to discourage enthusiastic sharing of the joy we experience with this amp...all we ask is for it to be _within reason_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 More disturbing, however, were indeed your statements concerning load on the amp. *Heater *draw will always, of course, be constant...and it is this figure especially that we must not encourage others to take undue risk with, regardless of how cool the amp as a whole seems to run. Plus, there are naturally other areas of current draw (and subsequent _*heat*_) within the circuit, that will vary to quite a degree...depending upon many factors that only the pros really have any idea about - as witnessed even by Maestro Henryk Feliks, with the discovery of unforeseen higher heat issues from just a new resistor circuit alone lol!!...Hence the need for _*extreme*_ caution when discussing such related topics!
  
@UntilThen and @DavidA make pertinent comments also.
  
 And so, DL, hopefully you can understand the reasons behind our call for a bit more care when posting impressions, ideas, assumptions etc....it is appreciated by _most_ folks here, at least...Thanks...CJ


----------



## DecentLevi

Read your points folks - great points!
  
 Also I will now mention I just 'completed' my set of EL11/12's with a package that came in yesterday. Unfortunately I'm afraid to try my Telefunken EL11's because they appear to be in what I'd call a 'risky' / questionable condition. The bases have come loose enough from the glass so that the glass on both can be wiggled from the base, and there is visible corrosion of some sort there between both tubes. I'm mostly just worried if these have been depressurized, of if these may still be safe to try:
  

  
 These are from the same seller as Howie bought his from however


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> @DecentLevi, I feel that sometimes you are too positive and everything you try seems to be the best ever until the next set of tubes or combination is tried.  *It might help if you or one of the other "Masters" of tube rolling made a chart with some of the various combinations but separate the list in to approved tubes, will work and under amp limit, and borderline combos.*
> 
> @UntilThen, Agree that once a combo is considered great it would remain so over time, not just for the Elise but also for other amps in general like the BH Crack, ZDS, MicroZOTL and others that use both driver and power tubes or even those that also have tube rectifiers.  One thing I have noticed is that tubes that many consider great driver tubes for the Elise are great in many other amps like the Liquid Glass, EC Balancing Act, ZDS and WA22.


 
 David:  Being a Master of the Absurd and not a Master of Tubes, I don't consider your request directed at me. But I think it is a pretty tall order. It takes far more left-brain power than I'm usually able to energize. @UntilThen is particularly good at that kind of thing, but he has found a more compelling activity of late (namely work) than playing in the sand box with us kids. Hopefully, he will find time to assemble the kind of chart you suggest. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I will tell you this, in my system I find that GEC6AS7G, GEC6080, Bendix 6080 and 5998 all work great as power tubes. I know I have 2 or 3 others that have worked well for me in the past, but just don't have the patience to go back and re-explore them. All of these power tubes work well with EL3N, Sylvania 6SN7WGT and c3g as drivers. Some combinations are better than others, but I think it is mainly a matter of taste, mood or the dreaded word "synergy". Using those power tubes with the Sylvania and c3g stays comfortably within safe operating limits. With the EL3N it may be pushing it a little.
  
 All in all, with these tubes and others gathering dust in my drawer, I feel I'm getting top performance out of Elise. I have a strong *personal* opinion that many of the OTT descriptions that appear on this thread are (I'm trying to think of an appropriate descriptive term) not helpful. It is certainly beyond my comprehension ability to track what is being said and put things in context. My own personal experience is that many of the differences that can be achieved with Elise are subtle to moderate, at best.
  
 Finally, and this is probably heresy to say on a tube-rolling thread, I do have questions about the length of time humans in general are able to preserve sonic memory. It takes time to allow tubes to cool down, replace them, and then try to make a meaningful comparison with the last tubes heard, let alone tubes that were heard hours or days ago. I think this can be overcome to a certain extent but it requires long listening sessions and super human concentration to make good comparisons. My lack of ability or patience to devote to such effort is what relegates me to the lowly position of Master of the Absurd.


----------



## pctazhp

For what it's worth, I'm currently listening to c3g/GEC6AS7G and it is certainly a wonderful combo on my system. Highs sparkle, mid-range very natural, and bass well controlled and present. Big thanks to @hypnos1 for the GEC recommendation and to @UntilThen for re-directing me back to c3g as a good driver for my HD800S.


----------



## angpsi

davida said:


> @DecentLevi, I feel that sometimes you are too positive and everything you try seems to be the best ever until the next set of tubes or combination is tried.  It might help if you or one of the other "Masters" of tube rolling made a chart with some of the various combinations but separate the list in to approved tubes, will work and under amp limit, and borderline combos.


 
  


pctazhp said:


> David:  Being a Master of the Absurd and not a Master of Tubes, I don't consider your request directed at me. But I think it is a pretty tall order. It takes far more left-brain power than I'm usually able to energize. @UntilThen is particularly good at that kind of thing, but he has found a more compelling activity of late (namely work) than playing in the sand box with us kids. Hopefully, he will find time to assemble the kind of chart you suggest.


 
  
 As a newbie in this game I second the motion. Stavros has already referred me to a number of relative threads which were most useful (so many familiar faces there too!); so perhaps it's about time there was a similar venture capitalizing specifically on Elise experience.
  
 Here are Stavros' links:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here
http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide
http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts
http://www.head-fi.org/t/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts
  
 Having grown out of the vacation period, I've now moved the Elise back to the office. At this point the tubes are quite broken in, so I've started listening more critically—and solely on my HD600s. Unfortunately, my only reference still remains my solid state setup on speakers, or my Benchmark DAC1 as a headphone amp. On these premises, the main difference I can perceive is merely between atmospheric/euphonic (tubes) and pronounced/tight (ss)—so no great revelations on that front. I believe that not too long from now I will have to try out NOS and try to make more educated comparisons. For what it's worth, music on the Elise / HD600s is a pleasurable experience that doesn't mandate my full attention. I'm really looking forward to more of this Jaguar E-type experience, as @mordy so eloquently put it.
  
 I wonder if our experienced members of the group would afford us an 'introductory' sort of combo for power tubes and drivers that doesn't break the bank?
  
 Happy New Year to everyone,


----------



## angpsi

On a different note, the Meridian Explorer 2 is selling at €151,46 plus shipping on Analogue Seduction. Snagged mine just for the sake of it. http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-1525/merexp2.html
  
 Also posted it on the EU deals thread.


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## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Read your points folks - great points!
> 
> Also I will now mention I just 'completed' my set of EL11/12's with a package that came in yesterday. Unfortunately I'm afraid to try my Telefunken EL11's because they appear to be in what I'd call a 'risky' / questionable condition. The bases have come loose enough from the glass so that the glass on both can be wiggled from the base, and there is visible corrosion of some sort there between both tubes. I'm mostly just worried if these have been depressurized, of if these may still be safe to try:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi DL...glad you seem to have understood our 'points' lol...no malice intended...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for those LOOSE BASES...this is indeed a very important topic, and one I have covered a couple of times in the past but certainly warrants repeating.
  
 But first, let me just say that I very much doubt a seller would list a tube that has in fact lost its vacuum...it's usually fairly obvious if it has - any shiny silver or grey getter flashing will turn WHITE, which isn't quite so obvious with the German EL11/12 due to the extensive internal grey coating...and sometimes there can even be patches of white on the inside top that do NOT mean loss of vacuum!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but it's still normally possible to tell the difference lol!
  
 Now to the loose bases (which are going to be found quite often with such old tubes, going back to the late '30s sometimes!). This 'problem' is, in fact, easily remedied  :
  
 First and foremost..._*don't keep waggling them from side to side lol!!!*_...and _*NEVER*_ try to pull out the tube by the glass if you haven't secured the base first...(pretty obvious what's likely to happen!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Simple remedy...*gently* scrape away any of the old 'glue' from where the base meets the glass - I repeat *GENTLY...*the glass in these old tubes can be very thin indeed!
  
 Then use a couple of short pieces of insulating tape to hold the base to the glass - not too much, so that a fair portion of the join remains clear for applying glue... but enough just to stop the base turning.
  
 Then push the tube into the socket _*by the base only*_, and no need to go fully in...just enough to make contact...then try it in the amp. This is so that you can be sure all is in fact OK with the tube!!
  
 Assuming all is well, remove the tube... again, *by the base only!!*...(not having gone right into the socket should make it easier to remove...).
  
 Now all that's needed is to run/tease some strong, gel-type 'superglue' into the join areas left clear of tape. I personally favour 2-part resin type adhesive for this job...doesn't run away so easily, but might just need a little help down into the join lol!
  
 Leave to set properly, and you should be good as new! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and you should be able to remove the unsightly insulating tape also...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Even with the base on real tight, I still advise anyone to _*NEVER*_ pull out a tube by the glass...*ALWAYS* by the base - if necessary, prising up the base from below with a long, flat-bladed screwdriver..._*gently*_, that is!!
  
 And so hopefully, folks, you should never have to worry about tubes with loose bases...sometimes sellers even reduce the price because of this, or fewer people bid at auction lol!


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## pctazhp

> Originally Posted by *angpsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I wonder if our experienced members of the group would afford us an 'introductory' sort of combo for power tubes and drivers that doesn't break the bank?


 
 Your post motivated me to give a quick listen to my EL3N/Chatham 6AS7G combo. It's got great detail and soundstage. A little too thin and bright on my system for my taste, but I'm enjoying it enough I'm going to keep it in for a while. I really can't speculate on how it would sound with your HD600.
  
 I noticed that Lord Raven (who used to hang out here a lot) has a pair of Chatham's for sale. You might want to check it out. http://www.head-fi.org/t/801179/chatham-6as7g-un-used-tested-grade-1-last-pair-last-chance


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## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> David:  Being a Master of the Absurd and not a Master of Tubes, I don't consider your request directed at me. But I think it is a pretty tall order. It takes far more left-brain power than I'm usually able to energize. @UntilThen is particularly good at that kind of thing, but he has found a more compelling activity of late (namely work) than playing in the sand box with us kids. Hopefully, he will find time to assemble the kind of chart you suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You make some sensible observations here, pct...'Absurd'?...NEVER, mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And yo...as has also been mentioned a good few times before (especially by _me_ just recently - can't imagine why lol!), different tubes will only take a particular amp so far...(having said that, I have to admit - still!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - that my recent _*mesh-plated [ie. anodes]*_ EL11s bring changes/improvements that are far from subtle/moderate...in my new amp, and system at least!!).
  
 Your observation on 'sonic memory' is also _very_ apt indeed...this can catch you out BIG time, and which therefore necessitates _*many*_ returns to the same setup and test pieces before any really accurate assessment can be made - this canNOT be achieved at all successfully in short, hectic sessions, to any great degree of accuracy/validity...).
  
 ps. And yeah, the 'long listening sessions' etc. can indeed be _*extremely*_ tiring and stressful LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...which is why I can only hope that my impressions to date on the new amp (and tubes!) will suffice for most folks...from now on I want (hopefully) to be doing more enjoyable _listening_!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 pps. On the subject of the new amp, Lukasz has informed me that finalised details should be getting on their website..."in the coming days". As suspected, final decisions on name (which might just surprise some folks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) are still being thrashed out...but there will be additional improvements to my own prototype) : viz.... 
  
 1. Further improved noise reduction circuitry, to address those who experience worse than normal interference problems.
 2. Increased circuit ventilation.
  
 Plus, the stock tubes will be the upgraded PsVane 6SN7s, and there will be a *THREE* year warranty! I am awaiting further finalised info before posting any more...but shouldn't be long now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Your post motivated me to give a quick listen to my EL3N/Chatham 6AS7G combo. It's got great detail and soundstage. A little too thin and bright on my system for my taste, but I'm enjoying it enough I'm going to keep it in for a while. I really can't speculate on how it would sound with your HD600.
> 
> I noticed that Lord Raven (who used to hang out here a lot) has a pair of Chatham's for sale. You might want to check it out. http://www.head-fi.org/t/801179/chatham-6as7g-un-used-tested-grade-1-last-pair-last-chance


 

 Thanks for the tip; will look into it!


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## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Being of a frugal nature, I always appreciate big bang for the buck. IMHO one bargain priced tube set-up that sounds very good is using the 1960's RCA 6SN7GTB driver tubes with the heater wire on top, and RCA 6080 (late 50's early 60's) tubes as power tubes.
  
 It is possible to find these four tubes for $40 or less, including shipping.


----------



## DecentLevi

+1 for the RCA 6080. These art 'criminally underrated' power tubes that come very close to highly sought after legends such as Mullard 6080 and almost to the level of GEC 6AS7G, and are as affordable as a hat. I found them to pair best with RCA 12AV7, ironically


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @angpsi...if you're interested in going right to the top (or thereabouts, IMHO) for not _too _much money, you might want to consider what I and @HOWIE13 have found regarding the EL11 drivers...as far as I personally am concerned, they surpass every tube I've tried to date...and that includes some _highly_ regarded, and sometimes MUCH more expensive, tubes lol!
  
 And _as yet(!!)_, you can find on ebay some very good examples of RFT EL11s (basically the usually more expensive Telefunkens) for not too much money "Buy it Now"...or even better sometimes, at auction. There are other brands of EL11, however, that sound just as good IMO. Some may well have loose bases, being old tubes... but I posted recently on how to remedy that quite easily.
  
 You would, of course, need adapters for them, but thanks to HOWIE's approach to the famous MrsXulong, they are now available  :
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-EL11-EL12-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201726996830?hash=item2ef7ddb15e:g:rxEAAOSwEzxYaHTz
  
 Best wishes with whatever you choose...you will not be disappointed, I'm sure....CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ps. And as I mentioned recently also, any EL11 tube measuring 29 to 30mA plus is MORE than good enough...(I have a 24mA rated Valvo that is actually sounding more powerful than one at 32mA!!).


----------



## LaCuffia

I won't be bothering to test the Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd generation) with the Elise.....I just got it today, and while I respect the German utilitarian like build quality, it is much too heavy and uncomfortable for me.  It just sort of flops on the head and the cups, while of a soft outer material, are a bit stiff and awkwardly shaped to the ear.  The sound is fine with an iPhone/Mojo set up - fairly balanced with solid bass but with a lean toward the upper frequencies.   I guess I am spoiled with the Z1R comfort and design, and Beyerdynamic is just not for me.


----------



## hypnos1

lacuffia said:


> I won't be bothering to test the Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd generation) with the Elise.....I just got it today, and while I respect the German utilitarian like build quality, *it is much too heavy and uncomfortable for me.*  It just sort of flops on the head and the cups, while of a soft outer material, are a bit stiff and awkwardly shaped to the ear.  The sound is fine with an iPhone/Mojo set up - fairly balanced with solid bass but with a lean toward the upper frequencies.   I guess I am spoiled with the Z1R comfort and design, and Beyerdynamic is just not for me.


 
  
 Wow, LC...you must like 'em REAL lightweight lol! I personally find them extremely comfortable...but then, all heads are different!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...All I can say is...don't even _*think*_ of the LCDs!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 And I must admit that in my own particular system - both the original Elise and now new amp -  my T1s (v 1) give a wonderfully balanced presentation...Just goes to prove the differences between systems lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 So what will you try next...some focals, perhaps?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


----------



## LaCuffia

It's not so much the actual weight that's a problem but design and weight distribution I think....the Sony is about 360 g but it feels much lighter.  I have no doubt the T1 gives great sound from the Elise but for me comfort is just as important.   I am putting the brakes on headphone buying for a while.    Interestingly, I will be in NYC on Monday and trying out the Sennheiser HE-1 Orpheus system.   It's only $55,000.   Maybe I'll look under the couches for some change and bring it home with me.


----------



## pctazhp

lacuffia said:


> It's not so much the actual weight that's a problem but design and weight distribution I think....the Sony is about 360 g but it feels much lighter.  I have no doubt the T1 gives great sound from the Elise but for me comfort is just as important.   I am putting the brakes on headphone buying for a while.    Interestingly, I will be in NYC on Monday and trying out the Sennheiser HE-1 Orpheus system.   It's only $55,000.   *Maybe I'll look under the couches for some change and bring it home with me*.


 
 If you find a little extra cash get one for me too. My couch has been running a little low lately


----------



## whirlwind

For tubes with loose bases.
  
 Here is a tip that my father showed me years ago, from when I helped him in his TV repair shop.
  
 Push the tube down on base and use some clear finger nail polish and go around the glass of the tube , where the glass meets the base....let it dry ...then apply a second coat if needed....works like a charm.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi @angpsi
> ...if you're interested in going right to the top (or thereabouts, IMHO) for not _too_ much money, you might want to consider what I and @HOWIE13
> have found regarding the EL11 drivers...as far as I personally am concerned, they surpass every tube I've tried to date...and that includes some _highly_ regarded, and sometimes MUCH more expensive, tubes lol!
> 
> ...



Thanks @hypnos1! Indeed there's an abundance of relatively affordable offerings of the EL11 on EBay, with the added perk of not having to worry about import fees as most sellers are located in the EU (which is hardly the case with Sylvanias et al.). I wonder if you'd care to state a preference between Valvo, Telefunken, RFT, Philips Miniwatt, or even the dead cheap Tesla.


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> Being of a frugal nature, I always appreciate big bang for the buck. IMHO one bargain priced tube set-up that sounds very good is using the 1960's RCA 6SN7GTB driver tubes with the heater wire on top, and RCA 6080 (late 50's early 60's) tubes as power tubes.
> 
> It is possible to find these four tubes for $40 or less, including shipping.







decentlevi said:


> +1 for the RCA 6080. These art 'criminally underrated' power tubes that come very close to highly sought after legends such as Mullard 6080 and almost to the level of GEC 6AS7G, and are as affordable as a hat. I found them to pair best with RCA 12AV7, ironically



Thanks guys, found some interesting offerings on these too! Wanted to ask you though, are you referring to the shoulder type construction or the straight tube with the metal base?

Guess I'm on my way to joining in as an addict, but with the benefit of your accumulated experience!


----------



## pctazhp

My "one of a kind" EL11s have arrived. Now I just wait for adapters:


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## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> My "one of a kind" EL11s have arrived. Now I just wait for adapters:



Damn! Hope it doesn't take these adapters too long to get to your hands... I'd go crazy if I were in your place! 
On a different note, are these regular EL11s or not? https://www.ebay.com/itm/221881848102 

Also, does it make a significant difference for the Elise if the tubes are "matched" or not?


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Thanks @hypnos1! Indeed there's an abundance of relatively affordable offerings of the EL11 on EBay, with the added perk of not having to worry about import fees as most sellers are located in the EU (which is hardly the case with Sylvanias et al.). I wonder if you'd care to state a preference between Valvo, Telefunken, RFT, Philips Miniwatt, or even the dead cheap Tesla.


 
  
 Hi again angpsi...just a quickie...haven't yet had time to do much comparing I'm afraid.
  
 So far, the best - for me - are definitely the *mesh*-plate Black Glass Valvos, but these are extremely hard to find alas. Their solid plate versions -  along with Philips stable tubes, Tungsram and possibly more brand names other than the German Telefunken and RFT - also have the oval-shaped plates that seem to be of the Philips design, as in the EL3N. The German tubes' plates are perfectly round, and have a different signature to the EL3N, as mentioned in previous posts. I've yet to see if there is in fact any difference between these Germans and the _solid_, _oval_-plate EL11s, (but I've a suspicion that I might just prefer the Black Glass Valvo versions lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 What I would say is that from my (another unfortunate!) experience with the Teslas..._*don't bother with them!*_ I wasn't at all impressed with the quality of construction, compared to others...GOOD LUCK!...


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
_"Wanted to ask you though, are you referring to the shoulder type construction or the straight tube with the metal base?"_
  
 I am not sure what you are referring to - the 6080 and 6SN7 are all straight glass. The GEC 6AS7 only comes as a ST tube.


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> _"Wanted to ask you though, are you referring to the shoulder type construction or the straight tube with the metal base?"_
> 
> I am not sure what you are referring to - the 6080 and 6SN7 are all straight glass. The GEC 6AS7 only comes as a ST tube.



Sorry for the misunderstanding, indeed I was referring to an RCA 6AS7.





Your reference was regarding something like this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/361220438372


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Damn! Hope it doesn't take these adapters too long to get to your hands... I'd go crazy if I were in your place!
> On a different note, are these regular EL11s or not? https://www.ebay.com/itm/221881848102
> 
> Also, does it make a significant difference for the Elise if the tubes are "matched" or not?


 

 I'm honored and humbled that you would apparently direct your questions to me, but there are far more qualified people here who hopefully will answer your questions. My sum knowledge of the EL11s I bought is that @UntilThen says they are short and fat, and someone else (I apologize, but I don't remember who) said they were probably made by someone else for TFK. I've never seen the tube you linked to on ebay and don't know anything about it.
  
 As for "matched" pairs, I don't think Elise has any special balancing circuitry but I have seen reports of people who seemed to be happy with unmatched pairs of certain tubes. I play it safe and try to buy pairs from highly rated sellers that are represented as "matched" and seem to have similar measurements based on the seller's particular testing gear.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 The RCA 6AS7G tubes are the shoulder type. I have two pairs and don't particularly like them. They are readily available and should not cost much if you shop carefully. The ones I have I paid less than $10 each.
  
 The 6080 RCA tubes that I have do not have any suffix - just 6080. You should be able to find them for $5-7 each.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks for your advice H1 on fixing a tube base. Will have to try it later, but have now given it a go with the EL11's + EL12 power setup as-is.
  
 Initial first 1/2 hr. impressions:
 This is supreme world class audio - sublime, divine, boundless and by far the closest to life, + the largest soundstatge I have ever heard at home - not only large but holographic, in such a way it seems to give an impression of possible directional pinpointing. I am in awe and my Elise will be forever changed. Quite a knockout performance out of 75 year old tubes!  My impression of the EL12N's paired with other top tubes was "immaculate, intimate, intricate", but this pairing adds even more spice of life - realism that is, rather than artificially enhanced!
  
Howie you've really knocked this one out of the ballpark, and it's even 'Humphrey'!


----------



## DecentLevi

Update 1 hr. later:
 The EL11/12 setup scales well with DAC's - as a well performing tube should! Sound with my R2R/multibit 'Mimby' DAC is even closer to life and smoother than I've perhaps ever heard before at home, and some sounds seem to come from very far away from me, even with a lossy file! This tube combo is allowing me to notice an even greater difference between DAC's than usual. This tube combo is an amazing performer with HD-650's, and is also really something to behold with an R2R DAC - try it and you'll see what I'm talking about. 
  
 However being that the current draw with EL11 + EL12 is only 4.2ah and the Elise is running cold, as well as how it was cold with every combination including EL12N, some fear lurks if maybe the Elise might encounter an issue from the current being _under_-driven... any cause for concern? And per the dual EL11 adapters, while this should be perfectly compatible, my mind wonders to how this may cause _too _large a soundstage.
  
 EDIT
 minor downside found: lower bass seems somewhat rolled off with this combo


----------



## HOWIE13

@DL Glad you like the EL11 driver, EL12 power combo. I wouldn't be at all concerned about a lower current draw but if you wanted an increase you could always trial dual EL 11 tubes with single EL 12's using that adapter pctazhp mentioned recently.


----------



## UntilThen

Came home from work and found that the Telefunken EL11s have arrived. A bit disappointed that there's no original packaging as shown on the seller's photo but the tubes are in good condition. Did my usual once over, cleaning them with Deoxit D100K and Gold G100L. Then insert the tubes into the adapters and into Elise. Using 5998 as power tubes for now.
  
 Not going to listen critically for now. Just going to spend a day with it before I start analysing it. However even as I'm writing, I can't help but notice that mid bass is hitting hard and has a snap focus. Certainly sounds brighter than EL3N from my recollection but I'll do a proper A/B before posting my impressions.
  
 This is the seller's photo. I thought I'll get the nice blue and white box but unfortunately all I get is bubble wraps.

  
 Here in Elise with Tung Sol 5998.


----------



## connieflyer

decentlevi said:


> Update 1 hr. later:
> 
> The EL11/12 setup scales well with DAC's - as a well performing tube should! Sound with my R2R/multibit 'Mimby' DAC is even closer to life and smoother than I've perhaps ever heard before at home, and some sounds seem to come from very far away from me, even with a lossy file! This tube combo is allowing me to notice an even greater difference between DAC's than usual. This tube combo is an amazing performer with HD-650's, and is also really something to behold with an R2R DAC - try it and you'll see what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


so these are now the holy grail again, if you take out all the superflous adjectives, then these are good except for the lower bass. Cant be perfect if lower bass is low. And this after only an hour. You just dont get it


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> so these are now the holy grail again, if you take out all the* superflous adjectives,* then these are good except for the lower bass. Cant be perfect if lower bass is low. And this after only an hour. You just dont get it


 
 The bane of effective communication. Don't need no stinkin' thesaurus here


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> @DL Glad you like the EL11 driver, EL12 power combo. I wouldn't be at all concerned about a lower current draw but if you wanted an increase you could always trial dual EL 11 tubes with single EL 12's using *that adapter pctazhp mentioned recently.*


 
 It wasn't me. Don't know why, but I hate dual adapters. I think it's some kind of Old Geezer thing


----------



## DecentLevi

Those were only initial impressions, as noted. But I would venture to say that 75 year old tubes which are likely already used have already burned in so the sonic signature is already set in


----------



## pctazhp

All of my tubes are the best. Each one is better than all the others. And I'm:


----------



## HOWIE13

My apologies @pctazhp and @mordy. It was mordy who spotted those double adapters. I've ordered.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Came home from work and found that the Telefunken EL11s have arrived. A bit disappointed that there's no original packaging as shown on the seller's photo but the tubes are in good condition. Did my usual once over, cleaning them with Deoxit D100K and Gold G100L. Then insert the tubes into the adapters and into Elise. Using 5998 as power tubes for now.
> 
> Not going to listen critically for now. Just going to spend a day with it before I start analysing it. However even as I'm writing, I can't help but notice that mid bass is hitting hard and has a snap focus. Certainly sounds brighter than EL3N from my recollection but I'll do a proper A/B before posting my impressions.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...glad you're finally able to try these EL11s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and break off from work to join us once more lol!).
  
 Are your TFKs NOS? If so, they will most certainly need plenty of burn-in...probably similar to our EL3Ns! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  But even then, you'll still probably find that treble more extended - as @HOWIE13 and I have found. And as I mentioned a while back, I personally think these 11s will do wonders for systems that need a lift and more 'sparkle', but might be a tad _too_ much for those that are already leaning in that direction...or for  ears that are very sensitive to treble. To me, in my system, they really do remind me of the excellent C3g...but I find the EL11s cover more bases better...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I really look forward to your findings once they've burned in some more...and your ears have become 'adjusted' to them (another aspect of assessment/appreciation that I believe doesn't get enough coverage lol!!).
  
 As a further experiment re. German _round_-plate EL11s vs. Philips design _oval_-plate, I now have a _mesh_-plate Valvo in the _right_ channel and an (East German) RFT in the_ left._..and there's no clash/imbalance whatsoever (to my ears, at least!). The Valvo is (understandably) helping to 'sweeten' the treble somewhat and bring a dash of warmth to the RFT's sound...as well as helping to widen the soundstage a little...an extremely pleasant result, to say the least!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.  Not quite the same magic as _two_ mesh-plate tubes, but darned close!...and would certainly reward anyone big time if lucky enough to stumble across just one...it would appear to mate very nicely with any other EL11, despite the different plate (anode) shape...
  
 All that's needed now is to see how the German fares when paired with a _solid_-plate, oval Valvo or similar Philips plate design...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...CJ
  
 ps. My all-black TFK EL11s arrived today....and boy, do they look _*sexy*_ lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. H13 said he didn't notice any difference in sound from just one, so it'll be interesting to see if _two_ bring the same result...(probably will!!)...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...glad you're finally able to try these EL11s
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm glad to break from work too. It's the weekend. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Seller's descriptions says it's old stock but they look new except the pins looked a bit oxidised but that was easily renewed with Deoxit. He does have 2 pairs available that are stated NOS for $20 more. 
  
 Not ready for posting my findings yet but just chilling, listening to music with EL11 and 5998, Chatham 6520. Had a quiet chuckle to myself when I tried it with quad EL3N as power tubes. It has raise the stakes over 6xEL3N. However so far, it's the EL11 and 5998 pairing that has made me sit upright and murmur... 'What the....' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Ah you're so right that EL11 cover more bases better than c3g... more basses too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Again, good advice from you re 'letting your ears get adjusted to the new tone'. Something I personally believe in. This applies to any new gear added to the chain or a new headphone you're listening to. Let it settle in and then you're able to post some coherent thoughts rather than some excited initial proclamations.


----------



## UntilThen

This is sounding real good with those EL11s and 5998 now. I've my CD version.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> This is sounding real good with those EL11s and 5998 now. I've my CD version.





 As I wait for my adapters, I am:


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> This is sounding real good with those EL11s and 5998 now. I've my CD version.




  
  


untilthen said:


> I'm glad to break from work too. It's the weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Y'know UT...I do believe that was @HOWIE13's favoured pairing, going into the New Year lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...And I'm quite sure there'll be even more...'What the...' in the days to come!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think I'm just as excited about taking the plunge and adapting these EL11s as I was with the EL3N...(if not _more_ so!). I've a feeling this tube may well appeal to even more folks than our previous winner...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And the icing on the cake is the MUCH smoother/safer fit of their different pins in peoples' adapters lol...
  
 Ooops...nearly forgot the second icing - the _*very*_ reasonable prices for good used tubes on ebay...especially the German site : ebay.de (using simply EL11 as search term at the site). I see some extremely good value RFT tubes still...eg. plenty reading 29mA to 31+mA going for about 17 to 21 Euros each...an *absolute steal* when minimum good is about 15mA!). These are, IMHO, _*silly*_ prices for such good tubes, given how much top 6SN7s go for...
  
 Some of these may well have slightly loose bases, but as I explained recently, this is easily remedied...even if in the short term only insulating tape is used to better secure the base to the glass, and remembering to _*always*_ insert and remove the tube _*only by the base!! *_
  
 Of all the tubes I have acquired, only one was badly microphonic - a Telefunken. Which I think is not bad for very old tubes...but what I would say is that if anyone else is unlucky in this way..._*send it straight back as faulty!*_ - you have very good protection as buyers now on ebay. I myself was unable to alas, as I didn't find out until I'd removed the old base and adapted with a new one lol! But this is the pioneer's lot, of course, and I'm just grateful the price was nothing to worry about unduly...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Anyway, my friend, ENJOY the new experience...perhaps _this_ time the (tube!) search really _will_ come to an end...am getting too old for all this 'excitement' LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  


pctazhp said:


> As I wait for my adapters, I am:




  
 Hey pct....perhaps the old saying should be changed from "absence" to "waiting" makes the heart grow fonder lol?!!!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> As I wait for my adapters, I am:


 
  
 Adapterless ? I feel for you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You're going to love EL11 with GEC 6as7g on your HD800S. This tube has shattered the glass ceiling. Such is it's treble extension. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Mind you, I'm enjoying EL11 with 5998 on my T1 v1. It redefines what details and clarity means to my ears. It's more vivid than the fireworks on New Year's Eve. I'll stop here now before I get too carried away.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Adapterless ? I feel for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey UT...trying not to get too carried away either, but remember you said recently that 2016 "was the year of the EL3N", and 2017 "the year of the new amp"? Well, I think 2017 could well be "the year of the EL11" instead lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 And of course, if it weren't for your eye for that pretty red skirted EL3N a good while back now, there would _be_ no EL11 in our midst!...so take a well-deserved bow, my friend...Methinks a good many folks are going to be VERY grateful for _both_ these tubes in times to come - on top of those already lucky ones who've discovered their charms LOL!...CHEERS! to all...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CJ


----------



## UntilThen

No can do. I will not take credit for it but I'll 'Hi Five' anyone willing to try out EL11. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What's happening here? I'm listening to all my music again with this tube arrival.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now playing this LP from @connieflyer . Exquisite. 
  
 Ps.. EL11 and 5998 is great with modded hd650.


----------



## pctazhp

I just checked on Ebay. Adapters are supposed to be here between January 11 and 26 (((((   Reminds me of this:


----------



## pctazhp

*MERRY UKRAINIAN CHRISTMAS TO EVERYONE)))  *Ukraine celebrates its religious holidays according to the old Julian calendar. Their Christmas is January 7. I realize this video is almost an hour long and no one will watch more than a few minutes of it. But I think it is pretty cool. Very Ukrainian in character 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Edit:  I just watched it again. I promise you that you will thank me if you watch the entire video ))))


----------



## UntilThen

EL11 initial impressions.
  
 I'll keep it short and try to describe what I hear.
  
 Slightly over a day of listening to Elise with EL11 and 5998. Several changes of driver to EL3N back and forth. A wide range of music from contemporary songs to audiophile vocals and instruments. It is no surprise if my findings mirrors @HOWIE13 and @hypnos1 but I shall put it in my own words.
  
 EL11 - High resolution is good. Depth of soundstage is more prominent. Mid-range is clear. Good transparency. Fast rhythm and pace on engaging tracks - seemingly faster transient. Good focus on vocals and instruments. Hard hitting mid-bass with good definition. Paired with 5998, it's energetic and dynamic.
  
 EL3N - Better atmospheric feel. Wider soundstage. Warmer and lusher. High resolution is definitely behind EL11. Mid-range is full, prominent and mellower. Has more 3D, holographic feel. Paired with 5998, it's more full bodied, more mellow and relaxed.
  
 I suspect most will favour EL11 over EL3N but much depends on your current setup (and your ears), whether it's leaning towards brightness or warmness. I do prefer EL11 at this point. Dynamics, faster transients and extended high notes are all very engaging. Will get your toes tapping and head bobbing. EL11 certainly appeals to me more. It has re-energised me to listen through my music collection again.


----------



## DecentLevi

Interestingly in recent tests just now comparing RFT EL12 to Telefunken EL11 both as drivers, they seem to both share a strikingly similar overall sonic signature! So out with my former concept of having to push the Elise over the current load by using the EL12's as drivers anymore! This makes me wonder if EL 11/12 have a very similar internal construction. I've also confirmed that the pairing of TS 5998 + EL11 as my #2 favorite pairing! It basically addresses everything I was saying a few pages back about what could make the Elise better, It has phenomnal synergy, and doesn't seem to be the usual TS 5998 sweet signaturewith liquid bass, but is very organic with very prominent dynamics. However now my all time #1 is now EL11+EL12, which has liquidity, clarity, realism and soundstage accuracy in spades. I also like GEC + EL11 but not so much with the quad EL3N, unless perhaps for a bright recording.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hey UT...trying not to get too carried away either, but remember you said recently that 2016 "was the year of the EL3N", and 2017 "the year of the new amp"? *Well, I think 2017 could well be "the year of the EL11" instead lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Could well be mon ami. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You have step on a gold mine with this tube. Just hit all the right notes. It's exquisite. Seems to go well with any power tubes too. Paired with Bendix 6080wb now and it's just beautiful sounding.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen boy now you've got me going.  With that description it sounds more like a women you are describing, (I think0, it has been so long I am not positive!. So far the consencous looks like a positive across all those that have tried them. Makes me wonder how many are still available, and if they are going to be bought up as spares. I like the EL3N's so much I have eight of them. Of course I was using them as six pack back them, so I will probably sell off the 2 adapters and four of the tubes. 4 a.m. and down to 5 degrees, I don't like winter anymore.


----------



## connieflyer

Since we are both up here's one for you.


----------



## connieflyer

One of Sue's favorite songs., it to me says it all for the way she stayed so long and left in the middle of the night. Strongest person I have ever known.


----------



## connieflyer

1967 was a good year to


----------



## connieflyer

And back when groups could harmonize


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  When you hear a good sound, you are hooked.
  
 EL11 has the same BIG presence as EL3N but it's sound signature is quite different. It's like a six blade knife, where the musical notes are slice very cleanly, with no jagged edges. It's a precision cut with a diamond tip. You want details, you have it, by the bucket loads. You want bass, you have it too, tight and gutsy. Am I still describing a tube?
  
 Those Telefunken EL11 are made in the 30s and 40s. Vintage stuff.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> And back when groups could harmonize


 
 Keep going and you'll overtake @pctazhp  while he's sleeping. You have to cross the finishing line before him.


----------



## connieflyer

I think you are but it reminds me of a young singer in Danang as well. @pctazhp could confirm that as he was the one running with the nurses. THey should sound good with this..


----------



## UntilThen

Dusty Springfield most famous song is this.


----------



## connieflyer

I bought this 45 rpm record in 1965 when I was in Japan, still have it,and the words still ring true today, have we learned anything from history? I doubt it. The words say it all


----------



## connieflyer

Well once he wakes up I am sure he will get things together. Nice and quiet here this time of day, night, whatever it is. Still thinking of getting the new Elise, H1 is really convinced about it's attributes. But it will all come down to price. If I did not already have the Elise, I would definitely go for the new one, but I will have to sell this one and the price of the new one, that is a lot grilled cheese sandwiches.   Well they are not up on F-A's website yet so still have time.It makes me wonder if it will matter as much to me and will I be happy paying the difference in price. Wow, too early to try to think . Back to my music.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I bought this 45 rpm record in 1965 when I was in Japan, still have it,and the words still ring true today, have we learned anything from history? I doubt it. The words say it all


 
 Never heard this before but it's good. What were you doing in Japan in 65?


----------



## connieflyer

VQ-1 squadron U.S. Navy, electronic countermeasures for the Sixth Fleet. Based at Atsugi air station, deployed to Danang, Philippines and Laos. Interesting time.  That song was really a big hit in Japan back then, fact that is where I heard it, the Jo sun I was dating played it allot. Very interesting country back then.  I did not want to enjoy it but really did. Traveled a lot by train by myself, and only spoke about 5 words in Japanese. Some very nice memories, wanted to go back someday, but life got in the way.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Well once he wakes up I am sure he will get things together. Nice and quiet here this time of day, night, whatever it is. Still thinking of getting the new Elise, H1 is really convinced about it's attributes. But it will all come down to price. If I did not already have the Elise, I would definitely go for the new one, but I will have to sell this one and the price of the new one, that is a lot grilled cheese sandwiches.   Well they are not up on F-A's website yet so still have time.It makes me wonder if it will matter as much to me and will I be happy paying the difference in price. Wow, too early to try to think . Back to my music.


 
 I'll give you UT's philosophy to make things easy for you. In Head-Fi, you don't want to over think and rush the next upgrade path. What is good now, that you will enjoy, especially with your soon to arrive EL11, the harbinger of joy. 
  
 When the time comes, Elise will be, will be, whether it's Mk1, Mk2 or Mk3.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks "MoM"  good advice of course. you seem to have learned a few things in life, a plus of course! Well I will leave you with this last one, have to go make some breakfast for Connor, and if he likes it he may let me eat as well!  Ever hear this one?


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Thanks "MoM"  good advice of course. you seem to have learned a few things in life, a plus of course! Well I will leave you with this last one, have to go make some breakfast for Connor, and if he likes it he may let me eat as well!  Ever hear this one?


 
 Ha I played Reflections of My Life for Pct and he got all reflective and melancholy.


----------



## connieflyer

For me it set my life in motion, tried to defend it for years , but it was just another political boon dock.  I am just glad that when the troops come home now they are treated with respect.  Back then people would spit at us, and I remember many times taking offense, and giving more than I was given. The Vets stuck together back then, as we were all we had. Now I just want some peace a few friends and my music to pass the rest away. Oh well., that was then I don't care to live in the past, but revisit occasionally to remind me of who I am.  Connor calls, boy he is sooooo demanding sometimes.


----------



## UntilThen

It's ok CF, you can talk to me anytime and tell Connor to be patient. I suppose it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, especially a big gentle giant like Connor.


----------



## connieflyer

I really wonder who taught who sometimes. He makes it seem like all I do for him is my idea, always wondered why he smiles alot.  thanks for the talk, needed it this morning, back on track again. Kool!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Keep going and you'll overtake @pctazhp  while he's sleeping. You have to cross the finishing line before him.


 

 Yawnnnnn. Where's my coffee????  Early to bed, early to rise - as I always say.
  
 If I don't find any countries that celebrate Christmas later this month or another hilariously funny rabbit joke, I could be in real trouble. @connieflyer has already preempted all the great music. So what do I do??? BTW, Linda Ronstadt grew up in Tucson where her father owned a hardware store.
  
 Well, CF is a worthy opponent. It would be no shame to lose to him. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 CF:  UT's description of the EL11 doesn't bring to mind any nurses. But his employment of the switchblade analogy makes his description a dead ringer for Sword Lady in Okinawa.
  
 Now, where is my kitchen so I can find some coffee????


----------



## connieflyer

Found the kitchen a couple of hours ago at 3 to be exact. You really have to get out of that sack occasionally so that you can see what's going on in the world. There's still so much music out there that you can share with us especially if you remember though I don't know fifties the sixties there might have even been something in the seventies. Well I don't look at it as winning or losing just that we're going down the road. Hope you're enjoying the new tubes


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Could well be mon ami.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> @connieflyer  When you hear a good sound, you are hooked.
> 
> EL11 has the same BIG presence as EL3N but it's sound signature is quite different. It's like a six blade knife, where the musical notes are slice very cleanly, with no jagged edges. It's a precision cut with a diamond tip. You want details, you have it, by the bucket loads. You want bass, you have it too, tight and gutsy. Am I still describing a tube?
> 
> Those Telefunken EL11 are made in the 30s and 40s. Vintage stuff.


 
  
 Yo, UT...I would agree the EL11 will probably pair very well with different powers...a more versatile tube than the EL3N...(who'd have thought _*we*_ of all people would be saying that lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). There is a precision and clarity to this tube that is very enticing indeed, let alone those  frequency extensions...truly wonderful!.
  
*HOWEVER* folks, although I've yet to confirm fully with _two_ of the Philips design _*oval*_ plate EL11s, from just one it already appears that these lean much more to the EL3N signature....which shouldn't really come as a surprise, I suppose lol!...totally different plate to the German _*round*_ plate. When paired with my (still oval) mesh-plate Valvo, the 3N 'sound' is more evident than with a German tube paired...ie. more 'warmth', but at the cost of some of those wonderful qualities just mentioned, and reinforced by yourself UT. The bass _appears_ to be more present, but I've a feeling it might just be more the 'bloated' variety alas!...then again, we mustn't forget the effect other equipment will have on the degree of this aspect.
  
 Therefore, if folks want that more 'pure' (some might even say _*Germanic!*_) sound, then - true to name lol! - the *German* tubes are indeed the ones to go for...ie. *Telefunken, RFT* or *Siemens* - the RFT ones looking, to me, the best value...especially as good used tubes.
  
 All the *Philips* stable EL11s; *Valvos *(Black Glass anyway, _presumably_ grey also?); *Tungsram* have the oval plates and therefore more akin to the EL3N.
  
 Hopefully this might give a bit more idea of what to go for...but if not in possession of the EL3N, why not give _*both*_ styles a try (if the price is right!)...after all, different strokes for different folks etc. etc.!!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Therefore, if folks want that more 'pure' (some might even say _*Germanic!*_) sound, then - true to name lol! - the *German* tubes are indeed the ones to go for...ie. *Telefunken, RFT* or *Siemens* - the RFT ones looking, to me, the best value...especially as good used tubes.


 
  
 I always thought there's something special with those TELE FUN KEN.
  
 RFT = Real Fun Tubes
  
 Siemens we all know.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Found the kitchen a couple of hours ago at 3 to be exact. You really have to get out of that sack occasionally so that you can see what's going on in the world. There's still so much music out there that you can share with us especially if you remember though I don't know fifties the sixties there might have even been something in the seventies. Well I don't look at it as winning or losing just that we're going down the road. Hope you're enjoying the new tubes


 
 Still waiting for the adapters. For now the EL11s are like the nurses I used to chase. Lovely to look at, but low on functionality.
  
 When I think about videos I could post I keep trying to find one that will top your Flying Saucers. So far I haven't succeeded.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> When I think about videos I could post I keep trying to find one that will top your Flying Saucers. So far I haven't succeeded.


 
 19 more posts to stardom. Make it good videos and good jokes please. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I don't want to hear any hamster jokes.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Well once he wakes up I am sure he will get things together. Nice and quiet here this time of day, night, whatever it is. Still thinking of getting the new Elise, H1 is really convinced about it's attributes. But it will all come down to price. *If I did not already have the Elise, I would definitely go for the new one*, but I will have to sell this one and the price of the new one, that is a lot grilled cheese sandwiches.   Well they are not up on F-A's website yet so still have time.It makes me wonder if it will matter as much to me and will I be happy paying the difference in price. Wow, too early to try to think . Back to my music.


 
  
 Yo cf...I hear you loud and clear lol!...a difficult call indeed...Even though there will be a big difference in price, I personally would advise any newcomers to try and stretch the budget to the new amp...it's _that_ good...but only if finances allow, of course! (I would _not_ want to be the instrument of horrendous debt or domestic upheaval lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). But, of course, for existing Elise owners that dreadful "Law of Diminishing Returns" will inevitably kick in, whereby the degree to which one is hankering for 'something more' also becomes a major factor in the decision process. And so I can appreciate ALL sides to this VERY common 'dilemna'...(and not just here in head-fi land of course lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...and I wish you - and everyone else in a similar situation - the very best in your eventual decisions...


----------



## connieflyer

I always thought moving up to a nicer amp like at least would make things easier it just feeds the hunger that says there's even more things I can hear out there. Why just the other day I heard Connor Pass Wind I didn't realize I could hear that well course it might have been the owner first but pretty sure it was explosion. UT is that a good post


----------



## DavidA

@pctazhp , sorry i don't have any rabbit jokes but i hope this is a good substitute:
  

 my new honey with her rabbit
  

 kahala beach park, see the rainbow
  

 She needs to get a tan


----------



## UntilThen

Ok nice pictures are accepted and let her know it's a compliment David.


----------



## connieflyer

That is one nice bunny David is indeed still our hero
Just noticed the rainbow


----------



## pctazhp

David is *Our Hero*. It's time to get serious. This one's for him:


----------



## connieflyer

PCT is back!!


----------



## DavidA

my morning drink, vodka, orange juice, grenadine, monster energy drink

  
 Love the "great balls of fire" but remember it more from Top Gun, LOL


----------



## Frederick Rea

hypnos1 said:


> Yo cf...I hear you loud and clear lol!...a difficult call indeed...Even though there will be a big difference in price, I personally would advise any newcomers to try and stretch the budget to the *new amp*...it's _that_ good...but only if finances allow, of course! (I would _not_ want to be the instrument of horrendous debt or domestic upheaval lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Good morning to all
 What we are talking here about the NEW AMP is that it is REALLY a NEW AMP, may be with a new name, so a new treath is needed. Not the same sound, not the same colour, not the same range price, with some components in common, so I think this is it. Elise remains ELISE forever I think
 I would like to thanks DL for his work here and for telling us things (on his own and particular way) that help to maintain this treath alive, regarding new tubes and so on. H1 was the first one on this ELISE experience, and I think it will be with the new Amp as well. Like to read all of you, but special reads on @connieflyer @pctazhp @UntilThen and newcomers recently.
 Thanks for making this threat an accessible, understandable, sympathetic, helpfull, adult, deep enough and flashy one

```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)]  [/color]
```


----------



## Frederick Rea

Regarding pure music. Have anyone heard those new MQA encoded files on Tidal? FABULOUS

```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)]  [/color]
```


----------



## pctazhp

@David. You're The Man ))) Kelly McGillis is all I remember from Top Gun


----------



## DavidA

frederick rea said:


> Regarding pure music. Have anyone heard those new MQA encoded files on Tidal? FABULOUS
> 
> ```
> [color=rgb(33, 33, 33)]  [/color]
> ```


 

 ​Is there a lot of MQA content?  Haven't seen much news about it lately.  (I could also be to drunk to notice these days)
  
@pctazhp, i remember the kelly girls, kelly mcgillis and kelly lebrock, but they sure aged


----------



## pctazhp

frederick rea said:


> Regarding pure music. Have anyone heard those new MQA encoded files on Tidal? FABULOUS


 
 I didn't realize Tidal had MQA files now. Are those the ones listed under "Masters"? Listening to a Robert Flack album from that list now. Don't know if it's MQA but it does sound fabulous.


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> ​Is there a lot of MQA content?  Haven't seen much news about it lately.  (I could also be to drunk to notice these days)
> 
> @pctazhp, i remember the kelly girls, kelly mcgillis and kelly lebrock, but they sure aged


 

 Yeah I saw a current picture of McGillis. Time has not exactly been kind to her 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit:  Come to think of it, time hasn't been particularly kind to me either


----------



## Frederick Rea

pctazhp said:


> I didn't realize Tidal had MQA files now. Are those the ones listed under "*Masters*"? Listening to a Robert Flack album from that list now. Don't know if it's MQA but it does sound fabulous.


 
 Yes it is under "MASTERS"


----------



## hypnos1

frederick rea said:


> Good morning to all
> What we are talking here about the NEW AMP is that it is REALLY a NEW AMP, may be with a new name,* so a new treath is needed.* Not the same sound, not the same colour, not the same range price, with some components in common, so I think this is it. Elise remains ELISE forever I think
> I would like to thanks DL for his work here and for telling us things (on his own and particular way) that help to maintain this treath alive, regarding new tubes and so on. H1 was the first one on this ELISE experience, and I think it will be with the new Amp as well. Like to read all of you, but special reads on @connieflyer @pctazhp @UntilThen and newcomers recently.
> Thanks for making this threat an accessible, understandable, sympathetic, helpfull, adult, deep enough and flashy one
> ...


 
  
 Hi FR...totally agree - but F-A have asked me to hold on until the new name is officially announced lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Glad you still like this thread!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...better than most IMHO - but then, I could just be biased of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## DavidA

@connieflyer, i hope you and @pctazhp get knighted at the same time for "supremus" both are almost there
  
@hypnos1, even if I don't have an Elise I love the music recommendations and info on life, booze and anything else one could think off.  @UntilThen, @Oskari, @Spork67, @DecentLevi (sorry if I miss anyone) best thread on Headfi.  Now its time for me to snuggle up with Sophia since its cold here in Hawaii, 15C at the moment (I know for some of you this is nice but in Hawaii its cold).
  
 Now I really wish I kept the Ballantine or Mccallan, but will have to make do with a rabbit and Sophia, damn I'm buzzed, night eveyone


----------



## connieflyer

I don't know about being knighted together but if we don't get our act together we're going to get crowned together. It has got to be tough 15 degrees Centigrade I remember occasionally over there it getting cool but I'm Thinkin 6 degrees Fahrenheit this morning probably was just a little bit worse. But then for our hero we could not allow it to be any cooler than what it is there now. Enjoy your day with the rabbit oh yes and Sophia. How could I forget her. Actually it took me to go back twice to her picture to look at her to actually see this stupid rainbow. I was going to make a comment hey did you guys see that rainbow in the picture then I saw that you'd even mentioned it. LOL probably just jealous. Hang in there


----------



## JazzVinyl

Any David Bromberg fans about?

He was just here, and in an exceptionally good mood on a night when it was very snowy and 1 degree F above.
Got a great turnout, the place was almost filled to capacity, and what a great show he put on...

He signed a pile of my LP's after the show, as well 







From the 'old days':

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_8jBb4-B9Y[/VIDEO]


----------



## connieflyer

Wicked guitar, and wicked temp


----------



## JazzVinyl

Another great Bromberg rendition:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t_xsQhuHe0[/VIDEO]


----------



## Frederick Rea

One notice coming from CES is that will be a new hdmi code to handle 4k and uper in video, so we must wait till it is available for our systems


----------



## connieflyer

Always wanted to attend CES show. Going to try next year


----------



## Frederick Rea

hypnos1 said:


> Hi FR...totally agree - but F-A have asked me to hold on until the new name is officially announced lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I don't know nothing yet, only that will be an update soon (very soon) on their Site. A new name and price are a natural choice regarding marketing/quality work, so they were my thoughts


----------



## connieflyer

I'm hoping that they will delineate all the changes that they made to the Elise to bring this new amp to Market. I have no idea what they'r going to charge for the new amp but, hypnos1 seems very excited about it. I am looking forward to get more details from them and then to price it out.


----------



## louisxiawei

untilthen said:


> EL11 initial impressions.
> 
> I'll keep it short and try to describe what I hear.
> 
> ...


 
 Good review! UT! Thanks a lot! Hope you have had a good time during Christmas and happy new year!
  
 Didn't have time to catch up with you gents. Looks like I'm far behind the progress.
  
 From the description, EL3N seems to fit my music taste better. EL11 sounds like c3g with more bass, am I correct? 
  
 However, I do find EL3N + Mullard 6080 is too soft and mellow for me, EL3N + GEC 6AS7 gives more open, transparent sounding.
  
 P.S. I now begin to fall in love my c3g. C3G + Mullard 6080WA is tmy most frequently use combo. I also prefer C3G + Mullard 6080WA over C3G + GEC 6AS7G. In c3g's case, Mullard 6080WA offer softer, musical sound.


----------



## UntilThen

Who's getting knighted? I'm ready for the ceremonial with the six blade knife.


----------



## connieflyer

Do you really think six blades are going to be enough?


----------



## UntilThen

louisxiawei said:


> From the description, EL3N seems to fit my music taste better. EL11 sounds like c3g with more bass, am I correct?


 
  
 Wrong Louis. 


louisxiawei said:


> Good review! UT! Thanks a lot! Hope you have had a good time during Christmas and happy new year!
> 
> Didn't have time to catch up with you gents. Looks like I'm far behind the progress.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Louis, welcome back.
  
 To answer your question, I had a good listen on EL11 with 7236 and C3G with 7236. On some songs, it's harder to tell the difference but on Michael Jackson's Billie Jean, that's where the difference becomes more obvious. The drums intro. C3G has a much harder and leaner beat. EL11 is more full bodied.
  
 For sheer details and high resolution, C3G is still up there but EL11 comes close.
  
 If you're loving C3G and Mullard 6080, give EL11 a go. I think you will like it.
  
 I'm running EL11 through my power tubes to see how it fairs. It's doing very well with 7236.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Do you really think six blades are going to be enough?


 
 For you, Sir Robin of Locksley.


----------



## connieflyer

She had quite a voice, and I know you will remember this one.


----------



## connieflyer

And of course just becase I am!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Poor Linda has Parkinson's Disease...

On a Winter day here when the high temp is not supposed to soar much past the single digits...

She said:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkKo-jXl2CQ[/VIDEO]




And for those who grew up in America during the 60's...this will appeal:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2NhHvEwqag[/VIDEO]



And of course, the great one, who just won a pulitzer prize:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSyUdJaqcs[/VIDEO]



And another great one, who passed late in 2016 (Rest In Peace, Leon):


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4sMSSm0x2A[/VIDEO]







.


----------



## JazzVinyl

connieflyer said:


> She had quite a voice, and I know you will remember this one.




RIP Greg Lake and Keith Emerson....so sad, they are both gone in 2016!


----------



## connieflyer

We certainly have lost a lot of the great ones in recent times. It is comforting to know that their music lives on though even though the fidelity on you tube is not that great, there is just so much of the music out there, that if you missed some thing even fifty years ago,there is a good chance you can find it.


----------



## connieflyer

Love the sax on Gerry Rafferty, Baker Street.


----------



## JazzVinyl

connieflyer said:


> Love the sax on Gerry Rafferty, Baker Street.




Did you know that the sax players' (Raphael Ravenscroft)' check for playing on that studio track. bounced? Said he has it framed on the wall of his attorney's office. Said Rafferty never make it good and he never got a dime additional for one of the most recognizable sax riff's ever laid down!!

He was asked what he thought of the riff, and he said: "it's flat...I will wish I could re-do it"!!!

Raphael passed in 2014:
http://www.usnews.com/news/entertainment/articles/2014/10/22/sax-player-behind-baker-street-solo-dies-at-60


----------



## UntilThen

That Annie Lennox's Summertime is great. She has a powerful voice that can hit the high notes easily.


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## connieflyer

The man could play his heart out, as in this from Blade Runner


----------



## pctazhp

It used to take me less time to listen to an entire afternoon of American Bandstand than it will to go through today's musical offerings 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 In order to remain true to the Coronation theme, I wanted to post Joan Baez singing "The Knight They Drove Old Dixie Down" but I can't find it anywhere


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## Oskari

Different version:


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/nnS9M03F-fA[/VIDEO]


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp how about this old enough


----------



## connieflyer

This will give you something to do till the game comes


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> That Annie Lennox's Summertime is great. She has a powerful voice that can hit the high notes easily.




She is really something else...makes it look easy.


----------



## connieflyer

Used to play this on guitar, in the old days, don't worry there are no recordings of it


----------



## JazzVinyl

connieflyer said:


> Used to play this on guitar, in the old days, don't worry there are no recordings of it




Stewart? Kansas? Both?


----------



## connieflyer

Yes


----------



## connieflyer

Trust me, I was the only one that knew what I was playing!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Have you seen these:

https://www.audiodeva.com/atmo-sfera/hi-end-edition.html




And:

https://maglevaudio.com/


----------



## connieflyer

That is pretty neat, it would make it easier to dust under the platter as well.  When I saw the name I thought it was going to be the Atmosphere tube amp


----------



## UntilThen

That's a lot of music videos for me to try out EL11 and Mullard 6080. @louisxiawei you're going to be eggcited with this combo.
  
 EL11 reminds me of FDD20 but I'm too lazy to connect external power supply to verify it.


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer. You're getting close. This is just to give you a nudge


----------



## UntilThen

There is one more test for you both @pctazhp  and @connieflyer . You must pull the sword from the stone.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> There is one more test for you both @pctazhp  and @connieflyer . You must pull the sword from the stone.


 

 I'm having a little trouble reading tonight. Did you say we need to get stoned and praise the lord?


----------



## connieflyer

Did you say we have to get stoned? Wow, I better borrow my neighbors motorcycle helmet


----------



## UntilThen

After one year and countless tube rolling, Elise's innards still look healthy. I'm stepping through EL11 with all power tubes. Now running EL11 and 6BL7. All single tubes. No multi combos here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My desk is full of power tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

I wanted my amp to look more sleek so I duct taped all the holes in the chassis used the black tape, looks good


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I wanted my amp to look more sleek so I duct taped all the holes in the chassis used the black tape, looks good


 
 What holes? Not the ventilation holes I hope.


----------



## connieflyer

THAT'S what those are!


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Nice burnished brown through those convection ventlilation holes......


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Nice burnished brown through those convection ventlilation holes......


 
 It's suntan after one year.  Look at yours. Would be the same.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> THAT'S what those are!


 

 Don't listen to UT. He's joking with you. Those holes are where you run the warm tap water through when you do your monthly flush-out maintenance.


----------



## connieflyer

Glad I use to waterproof duct tape. I'll have to check and make sure that I put the antifreeze in there too because it's a really nasty winter this time


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Don't listen to UT. He's joking with you. Those holes are where you run the warm tap water through when you do your monthly flush-out maintenance.


 
 Those are tuning holes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Speaking of tuning, did you tune my Telefunken EL11? They don't sound as pin point sharp as day one. Either my ears have become desensitised and accustomed to it or the tube have just started to blossomed.


----------



## LaCuffia

Listened to my Senn HD 598 with the Elise today and was really impressed. Hadn't used the 598 in over a year and never held that high opinion of it but perhaps it was a matter of the right amplification because the Elise makes it sound like a champ. 

I can't imagine what a 800S would sound like with the Elise! 

Also, got a pair of Sylvania Bad Boys and they pack a serious punch. Guess I already have the tube rolling bug...


----------



## mordy

Hi LaCuffia,
  
*IT NEVER ENDS!*
  
 The upside is that everything sounds good in the Elise!


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp  was singing the praises of HD598 before he got his HD800S. Now he's singing the praises of the flagship.
  
 And Mordy is right. Every tube sounds great in Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

Has anybody found the dipstick on this app so I can change the oil


----------



## UntilThen

I'm down to my last test. EL11 with Svetlana 6H13C.


----------



## connieflyer

All about time you got done testing it will be time to go back to work and it's probably a good thing because then you can rest up for a while from all your testing. Thanks for your review as they're very helpful gives us an idea what the different tubes will do or sound like.


----------



## UntilThen

Surprise surprise, EL11 and stock power tubes Svetlana 6H13C actually sounds good.


----------



## UntilThen

*Here's my report card on testing Telefunken EL11 with various power tubes. *
 (sadly GEC 6AS7G and GEC 6080 isn't in my inventory, so someone will have to report on that)
  

*Power tubes**Comments*Tung Sol 5998Sizzles, sparkles and have great punch. My favourite of the lot.Bendix 6080wbDrier, less bounce than the 5998 but very detail, spacious and worthy of it's hype. I love this.Cetron 7236 Love this with EL3N but somehow it's not as magical with EL11. Still good. 
 [size=inherit]Mullard 6080[/size]
Very detail, leaner tone. I find it has great synergy with EL11. Love it.RCA 6080More plump blossomed tone without sounding bloated. A good variation from the leaner, meaner tone.GE 6BL7Surprise here. Sounded great with raw bass power. Any more bass, it would be too heavy. Single pair of 6BL7 works and has as much volume as other power tubes, which is a surprise. Try it if you like your bass to move you.Svetlana 6H13CAlways view this tube as lack lustre but in this pairing, it's surprisingly good. So don't toss away your stock power tubes yet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Chatham 6AS7GAs with most 'coke' bottle shaped power tubes, the sound is more full bodied. Sound is clear and breezy and lighter in tone than the RCA 6as7g.
 
 So there you go. No bad tubes here. It's all EL11 magic.


----------



## connieflyer

Nicely charted that will help a lot of people when they want to go and start swapping tubes in and out give him a good idea what they're looking at well done until then you the man


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Nicely charted that will help a lot of people when they want to go and start swapping tubes in and out give him a good idea what they're looking at well done until then you the man


 
@pctazhp  will have a nightmare if he knows you're 8 posts from knighthood.


----------



## connieflyer

He won't care we're still looking around for that stone with a sword in it I got a feeling I'm going to need my ass off to get that out of their butt no instructions I get it out whatever way I work little C 4 would work as well don't have any left but I could probably get some make that 7


----------



## UntilThen

I did a photoshoot of the 6BL7 as power tubes. Looks neat.


----------



## connieflyer

What other drivers would you use with the 6 BL sevens I used him before and I don't remember they use for drivers thank you


----------



## UntilThen

Use it with 6SN7s. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just tried it. I've tried it before but volume was lacking but now surprisingly it's full on. See the volume dial at below 10 o'clock and it's loud on my modded hd650.


----------



## pctazhp

Someone called me who likes to talk and talk and talk and......well you get the idea.
  
 I'm dead tired and going to sleep. Someone congratulate @connieflyer if he reaches the magic number while I'm dreaming of chasing nurses


----------



## UntilThen

Here try your Ken Rad 6SN7 vt231 with 6BL7 on Jacko's Billie Jean. Move Connor out of the way so you have room to moondance.


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> Use it with 6SN7s.
> 
> Just tried it. I've tried it before but volume was lacking but now surprisingly it's full on. See the volume dial at below 10 o'clock and it's loud on my modded hd650.


 thanks I know I do that a long time ago but couldn't remember what I paired it with all but those in for a while and see what they sound like thank you my good man


----------



## connieflyer

The total doesn't show up on my phone that's what I've been using today so I don't know how close I am or how far away I am but I do know I'm not very far away from the bed and I think I'm going to take advantage of that pretty quickly nytol


----------



## UntilThen

That in essence is what I mean by all tubes sound good in Elise. I'm now sidetracked onto 6SN7 and 6BL7. Elise sound signature is very evident in all these combos. 
  
 Now you better get your rest.


----------



## UntilThen

A weekend spent listening to the sonics of EL11. My brief foray to 6SN7 only confirm my preference for EL11 by a mile. I return again to EL3N just to see how much I miss it. Not very much I am afraid. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 EL11 has shot to the top of the chart.


----------



## connieflyer

Well I thank you for your working through your weekend, and giving us another valuable resource. Your opinion does matter, and having you compare the tubes, we know that it is a thoughtful process, will out all the histrionics. I can not know the sound of the E11, but I can get an idea of how they compare to tubes I am familiar with. Good Job..I am happy for you having a new endeavor, but morn the loss of these pages , for your weekly absence!


----------



## connieflyer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bKwRW0l-Qk&index=9&list=PL55y-SQvmOR80jBx7Tze2AT1BP9v5zHLw
 A little slow down


----------



## DavidA

@connieflyer, love thoes oldies, you are almost there


----------



## vl4dimir

Just pulled the trigger on the Elise, should be here by the end of the week. Hope you guys haven't selling too much dream


----------



## connieflyer

Welcome to our humble information-entertainment site. Elise should help make your appreciation of music more positive


----------



## DavidA

vl4dimir said:


> Just pulled the trigger on the Elise, should be here by the end of the week. Hope you guys haven't selling too much dream


 
 While I don't own one yet, I've heard a stock one and it good as is, but I can see rolling tubes can help you tune the sound to your preference.  My only small disappointment was that its not a good amp for planars for me.  Some here use planars like the HE-560 with the Elise but since I've heard the HE-560 on some good SS and hybrids like the Hugo TT, Liquid Carbon, Liquid Glass, MHA-100 and Dark Star to name a few the Elise doesn't provide the current to control the drives well and the sound is a touch muddy and overly warm, just remember this is with the stock tubes so those that like the HE-560 probably have rolled different ones which match better.


----------



## connieflyer

Well, on this historic and wonderful day, I have reached out and found a new level of enjoyment on this thread. I would like to take the time on this post to thank all the movers and shakers of this thread, that have not only helped increase the enjoyment of our amp, but also the discovery of new possibilities for Eilse. Hopefully the camaraderie will continue to grow, with new members adding there own findings. One other benefit for me, has been the fact that there are so many people from so many nations around the world.  And these members have added music from there own experiences and allowed us to broaden our musical enjoyment. There is so much music available, and so much I would not have been aware of had it not been for the way this thread has been allowed the flexibly to share experiences and musical knowledge with the rest of us.It has been the best forum I have used, in all my wanderings on the net and even before that on the BB system. It has just the right blend of experience, knowledge, wonderment and best of all friendship.I have been very fortunate to make friends here that I am sure will last along time. And the heartfelt condolence when my wife passed this year has been real and very important to me, taking the time in PM's to offer up support and friendship.  This is truly a collection of people that share not only there knowledge but also their humanity. Thank you all, won't name you, but you know who you are. Peace to all and happiness in the future.  Don..


----------



## Oskari

You done it, CF. Congrats!


----------



## vl4dimir

davida said:


> While I don't own one yet, I've heard a stock one and it good as is, but I can see rolling tubes can help you tune the sound to your preference.  My only small disappointment was that its not a good amp for planars for me.  Some here use planars like the HE-560 with the Elise but since I've heard the HE-560 on some good SS and hybrids like the Hugo TT, Liquid Carbon, Liquid Glass, MHA-100 and Dark Star to name a few the Elise doesn't provide the current to control the drives well and the sound is a touch muddy and overly warm, just remember this is with the stock tubes so those that like the HE-560 probably have rolled different ones which match better.


 

 I only like to have one pair of headphones at time (until now I only had planar magnetic), so i'm selling my HE400i and keep the HD650 which seems to be not a bad match (only have heard them one ifi micro idsd BL so i assume i'll hear improvement). As for the DAC i decided to get a modi multibit which seems to have some praise on various forums..
 For tube rolling why not but don't want to spend like crazy. If you can make me a quick summary of which tubes are well regarded with the HD650 at around 100€, i'll be thankful


----------



## connieflyer

Thank you all for the ride


----------



## hypnos1

Before I say anything else...like  *FURTHER NEWS FROM FELIKS-AUDIO*, I'd just like to say...*CONGRATULATIONS* to you @connieflyer...and *WELL DONE!!* And a big THANKS for your very uplifting words on our community...well said indeed...





...(and welcome to the 'S' Club...don't disgrace us now, mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...as if lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.....CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now then @pctazhp...COME ON, ol' boy...NEARLY THERE LOL!!...(enough smileys for now, methinks!!) 
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> It's suntan after one year.  Look at yours. Would be the same.


 
  
 Hmmmm UT - that colour should be _pale_ amber, methinks lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







....TIME FOR A NEW AMP!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  


untilthen said:


> Those are tuning holes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo UT....that treble does tone down...but not to any detriment lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...these EL11s will stay at the top of your list, of that I'm quite sure!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


vl4dimir said:


> I only like to have one pair of headphones at time (until now I only had planar magnetic), so i'm selling my HE400i and keep the HD650 which seems to be not a bad match (only have heard them one ifi micro idsd BL so i assume i'll hear improvement). As for the DAC i decided to get a modi multibit which seems to have some praise on various forums..
> For tube rolling why not but don't want to spend like crazy. If you can make me a quick summary of which tubes are well regarded with the HD650 at around 100€, i'll be thankful


 
  
 Hi vl4...and welcome to Elise land - GOOD CHOICE...as you may well have already gathered lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 UntilThen posted a nice summary of the latest EL11 drivers with different power tubes a short while back....a very good start IMHO. There are of course many other very good tubes, including different 6SN7s, if you don't want to use adapters...but these EL11s are proving to be a good choice for what I'm sure will apply to _most_ systems/ears out there, and more so than pretty well any other driver I can think of. I do recommend, however, that you try to find the time to plough back through this and the other Elise threads...this would give you a much better idea of the range of sound from different tubes and associated equipment - not to mention _*ears!!*_





    GOOD LUCK!!  and  CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## connieflyer

Wow @hypnos1 talk about covering all the bases, you just replied to half a dozen pages with one post!  No wonder you are top dog!  Checked F-A's website this morning and still no news on new amp.   Encouraging though is the information on two tiers of shipping for North America, will save some money on that, if you can steal yourself to the longer wait.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Well, on this historic and wonderful day, I have reached out and found a new level of enjoyment on this thread. I would like to take the time on this post to thank all the movers and shakers of this thread, that have not only helped increase the enjoyment of our amp, but also the discovery of new possibilities for Eilse. Hopefully the camaraderie will continue to grow, with new members adding there own findings. One other benefit for me, has been the fact that there are so many people from so many nations around the world.  And these members have added music from there own experiences and allowed us to broaden our musical enjoyment. There is so much music available, and so much I would not have been aware of had it not been for the way this thread has been allowed the flexibly to share experiences and musical knowledge with the rest of us.It has been the best forum I have used, in all my wanderings on the net and even before that on the BB system. It has just the right blend of experience, knowledge, wonderment and best of all friendship.I have been very fortunate to make friends here that I am sure will last along time. And the heartfelt condolence when my wife passed this year has been real and very important to me, taking the time in PM's to offer up support and friendship.  This is truly a collection of people that share not only there knowledge but also their humanity. Thank you all, won't name you, but you know who you are. Peace to all and happiness in the future.  Don..


 

 Big congratulations oh mighty SUPREMUS. As usual, I slept through another great moment in history


----------



## HPLobster

After doing a lot of research, I just ordered a Feliks Audio Elise and can´t wait to try this marvellous amp out myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think it´ll do a fantastic job ...
  
 Anyway, this is not why I wanted to post here, I had a little chit-chat with Lukasz from Feliks Audio in connection with my order and he gave me the hint that prices for their products are going to rise very soon (apparently justified)!
  
 If you are still on the fence, you should go for their amps right now...


----------



## connieflyer

Okay @pctazhp you may have had to sleep, nap and in general rest your weary bones, but you are awake now, so let's get busy and make a few posts and join the club, it is an unbelievable difference in your life when you cross that thresh hold!  Things happen that will amaze you and will enhance your life in so many ways, post boy, post!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Okay @pctazhp you may have had to sleep, nap and in general rest your weary bones, but you are awake now, so let's get busy and make a few posts and join the club, it is an unbelievable difference in your life when you cross that thresh hold!  Things happen that will amaze you and will enhance your life in so many ways, post boy, post!


 

 I tremble at the thought of crossing that magical line. I am tormented with thoughts of "I am not worthy, I am not worthy".


----------



## connieflyer

Since I am in a sharing mood, I would like to share my New Years Resolutions with you.


----------



## connieflyer

Of course you are worthy, just look around at those of us who have crossed over, and you can see, you fit in  perfectly!!


----------



## pctazhp

Welcome @vl4dimir and @HPLobster to our exclusive club. I think all of us look forward with excitement to reports from newcomers. I always say that newcomers are the most important people on this thread


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Of course you are worthy, just look around at those of us who have crossed over, and you can see, you fit in  perfectly!!


 

 Yes. I see your point. 6 more to go and I will be a new man. Just hope it won't be Frankenstein


----------



## hypnos1

OK guys, back to the   *FELIKS-AUDIO UPDATE* .....the new amp's name is....*EUFORIA*....
  
And will be priced at $1399, with hopefully a pre-order discount...full details will be on their website in the next few days :  http://feliksaudio.pl/
 Once the site is updated I shall be starting a new dedicated thread, in which I shall post more detail about it and my own impressions on its performance...although you guys here have already had a good dose of my musings lol!
  
 But I will just say a couple of things here first...like..._Why change the name?!..._
  
 Well, as I mentioned before, althought _externally_ it still looks an Elise, _internally_ F-A have made radical changes, over and above what was initially envisaged. And the end result has also proved well above their (and my!) expectations, to the point where a major redesign of case, bigger transformer etc. would probably not deliver anything like the extra performance, in relation to the inevitable MUCH higher price that would be incurred. By retaining the same basic case and trafo, they have managed to keep to a minimum the premium needed over Elise....and, given the extensive alterations/upgrades already mentioned (including those in addition to my own prototype), I think the price is reasonable and understandable.
  
 When I first heard mine, I really did think I was listening to a different amp...and which helps, IMHO, to explain the need for a new name.
  
 Euforia is indeed in another league...and is going to have to do battle with some serious competition. But I'm quite sure it will - as with Elise - be more than capable of matching anything near its price point...Elise has shown us just what Feliks-Audio are capable of achieving...and once again, the gauntlet has been thrown..._*let battle begin!!*_...CHEERS!...


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1. I don't know if I'm more in a state of boundless euphoria because of my pending change in status or the new name. I like it. And the price seems reasonable. This is a great day.


----------



## pctazhp

*Five*


----------



## pctazhp

*Four*


----------



## pctazhp

*Three*


----------



## pctazhp

*Two*


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp that is what I thought too. Even the last Porsche I bought, was a little pricey but I thought it a good value, and now with the price of the new Porsche Hot Wheels going up, I feel a good bargain indeed!


----------



## pctazhp

*CELEBRATE!!!! CELEBRATE!!!*


----------



## pctazhp

And for good measure:


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp an amazing feeling right?  Congrats you deserve the recognition!


----------



## hypnos1

hplobster said:


> After doing a lot of research, I just ordered a Feliks Audio Elise and can´t wait to try this marvellous amp out myself
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 And a hearty welcome from me too....yet another one with good taste and a penchant for good _choices_ lol!!...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CJ


pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1. I don't know if I'm more in a state of boundless euphoria because of my pending change in status or the new name. I like it. And the price seems reasonable. This is a great day.


 
  
 Both in equal measure, I hope, mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(glad you like the new name...yeah, not bad at all! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


pctazhp said:


> *CELEBRATE!!!! CELEBRATE!!!*




  
  
*CELEBRATIONS INDEED*, pct.......WELL DONE to you too!!....Two new supremuses here in one day..._*CRAZY!!!...*_but *GREAT!!...*




  
 I am now redundant LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp that is what I thought too. Even the last Porsche I bought, was a little pricey but I thought it a good value, and now with the price of the new Porsche Hot Wheels going up, I feel a good bargain indeed!


 
  
 So how d'ya fancy an Aston Martin then, cf?!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## connieflyer

Aston Martin's always been a favorite of mine when Ford owned them I had a chance to get one at the manufacturer's discounted price unfortunately I couldn't afford that either. All the Hot Wheels aren't quite as large as a regular car if you're going to dream you might as well dream with a reality that you can hold in your hands.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> My "one of a kind" EL11s have arrived. Now I just wait for adapters:




Have you checked for Philips-style codes?

P.S. Congrats!


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Aston Martin's always been a favorite of mine when Ford owned them I had a chance to get one at the manufacturer's discounted price unfortunately I couldn't afford that either. All the Hot Wheels aren't quite as large as a regular car if you're going to dream you might as well dream with a reality that you can hold in your hands.


----------



## pctazhp

Aston Martin??? I never saw much of him after Laugh-In. RIP. Here's a "Sock it to Me" for old times sake


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> Have you checked for Philips-style codes?
> 
> P.S. Congrats!


 

 Thanks. I couldn't see any. I just have the information you were kind enough to provide. http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4830#post_13136388


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> Thanks. I couldn't see any. I just have the information you were kind enough to provide. http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4830#post_13136388




Ok. I thought that there could be other codes than the Tfk dates on them.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Thanks. I couldn't see any. I just have the information you were kind enough to provide. http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4830#post_13136388


 
  
 Hi, my fellow club member (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...if you have a clear view through the top (and a very bright torch), you should be able to confirm once and for all they are indeed German TFKs as opposed to Philips made-for-TFK tubes - if the plates (not any micas!) are perfectly round, then they are indeed German EL11s. If _oval_ they're Philips lol!!  So get looking, mon ami! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. I say plates, plural, but there is of course only one in the tube lol!!


----------



## Oskari

H1, which camp do you put Valvo in? They are both Philips and German (if made in Hamburg)?


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hi, my fellow club member (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 As far as I can tell, mine were made in Santa's workshop. Anyone have a good recommendation for leather restoration???


----------



## UntilThen

*Congrats @pctazhp and @connieflyer. You look beautiful now.*
  
 Welcome @vl4dimir and @HPLobster to the Elise clan.
  
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> OK guys, back to the   *FELIKS-AUDIO UPDATE* .....the new amp's name is....*EUFORIA*....


 
  
 Mon ami, your work paid off again and led to the creation of another tube amp from FA. It's up on their website now, including revised pricing for Elise and Expressivo.
  
 Me thinks they like 'E'.


----------



## HPLobster

hplobster said:


> Anyway, this is not why I wanted to post here, I had a little chit-chat with Lukasz from Feliks Audio in connection with my order and he gave me the hint that prices for their products are going to rise very soon (apparently justified)!
> 
> If you are still on the fence, you should go for their amps right now...


 
  
  
 Quote:


pctazhp said:


> Welcome @vl4dimir and @HPLobster to our exclusive club.


 
  
  


hypnos1 said:


> And a hearty welcome from me too....yet another one with good taste and a penchant for good _choices_ lol!!...CHEERS!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> Welcome @vl4dimir and @HPLobster to the Elise clan.
> 
> It's up on their website now, including revised pricing for Elise and Expressivo.


 
  
  
 Thank you all for your warm words of welcome 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 About the price change....yeah, that was quicker than I thought! Guess I was one of the last ones to buy it for the original price


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Mon ami, your work paid off again and led to the creation of another tube amp from FA. It's up on their website now, including revised pricing for Elise and Expressivo.
> 
> Me thinks they like 'E'.


 

 So the universe is in perfect alignment today)))
  
 Several points of interest. I assume the picture at the top is the Euforia, but it isn't entirely clear.
  
 If I were ordering a new Euforia I think I would prefer to order it without tubes, but it doesn't appear that's an option - at least for preorder purposes.
  
 Finally, there is a Euforia upgrade link. It isn't totally clear if that is an upgrade option for us current Elise owners. If I can't sell my Elise by March I'll be shipping it to Europe. I'd prefer to ship it to Poland for upgrade, so I hope there will be an upgrade path.
  
 But for now, the news is very exciting. Time will reveal all


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Since I am in a sharing mood, I would like to share my New Years Resolutions with you.




I'm having a salami salad for dinner.


----------



## vl4dimir

> About the price change....yeah, that was quicker than I thought! Guess I was one of the last ones to buy it for the original price


 
  
 How much did you pay for it if I may ask ?


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> I'm having a salami salad for dinner.




... with some healthy barley juice.


----------



## connieflyer

An obscure recording of Raphael Ravenscroft


----------



## HPLobster

vl4dimir said:


> How much did you pay for it if I may ask ?


 

 699 USD (+40 for shipping), I chose the stock tube/Tung Sol - option.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> As far as I can tell, mine were made in Santa's workshop.




That looks a lot like Lord Raven's broken (Austrian) EL3N. (BTW, where is that guy?)




lord raven said:


>




But it's not an exact match.


----------



## DecentLevi

What does an audiophile say after removing his earplugs in a large, noisy hall = wow that has a good soundstage!
 (well that was me anyway at work)
  


untilthen said:


> I always thought there's something special with those TELE FUN KEN.
> RFT = Real Fun Tubes
> Siemens we all know.


 
 Or Telefunken = Tele fu$*in' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Interestingly though, this company is still around and is making brand new tubes and professional microphones, with US offices too.


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> Interestingly though, this company is still around and is making brand new tubes and professional microphones, with US offices too.




Hardly the same company and the tubes are relabeled JJs.


----------



## DecentLevi

So guys, I have to say that while all the enthusiasm about* EL11* has been well placed, it strikes me as a bit perplexing... you see, *EL12*'s are every bit as special on the Elise as EL11, to which I have confirmed on my amp. After trying EL11's up against nearly every other power in my system, and trying EL12's up against every other driver in my system, and together, these three things become clear to me:
 

El11 and EL12's are BOTH in a whole other league, and both share similar sonic attributes as well as possibly similar construction
EL11's outperform every driver AND EL12's outperform every power
EL11 + EL12's together outperform every other combo
  
 _(these statements are all IME / IMO and based on RFT EL12N + Telefunken EL11)_
 
Although there may be a modest sub-bass roll off, that may be down to tube condition / brand pairing on my system. So this may change depending on tube condition or brand types, and also responds well to modest EQ'ing.
 
But overall with the EL11 (drivers) +EL12 (powers) I'm getting a sound that is* airy, detailed, dynamic, neutral, smooth and especially with great *presence; has *fantastic layering / imaging*, and is nearly effortless and can be *holographic*.
 
So @HOWIE13, I see you've got a dual EL11 adapter on the way - are you going with quad EL11 as drivers or as powers? And do you already have four? Quad EL12 may push the power threshold over a little though.


----------



## DecentLevi

Also on the topic of Telefunken / RFT - don't quote me on this but it looks like RFT may have been a sort of collaboration or sub-brand of Telefunken. And all the Telefenken / RFT tubes of the same class do seem to have a strikingly similar appearance so it may not matter which of these two brands you buy. And the Telefunken logo is exactly identical on the microphones still being made, so it would sure seem to be the same company as the one who made the tubes back in the 40's - 50's.
 
And it may be interesting to note that EL11/12's are both pentodes which are reportedly not performing on native operating points on the Elise in the same way that the EL3N are triode strapped pentodes.


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q9lnys-LPA[/VIDEO]

_Sånger att älska till_


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> [COLOR=222222]And the Telefunken logo is exactly identical on the microphones still being made, so it would sure seem to be the same company as the one who made the tubes back in the 40's - 50's.[/COLOR]




Please. Don't be gullible.



decentlevi said:


> [COLOR=222222]And it may be interesting to note that EL11/12's are both pentodes which are reportedly not performing on native operating points on the Elise in the same way that the EL3N are triode strapped pentodes.[/COLOR]




Eh? The EL11 is the same as the EL3N, with a different base.


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> *Please. Don't be gullible.*
> Eh? The EL11 is the same as the EL3N, with a different base.


 
 You are spot on. Trade names and logos are bought and sold all the time. I represented a company that sourced submersible water pumps from China. They bought the right to market those pumps under the GE name. GE never had anything to do with those Chinese pumps.
  
 As for Telefunkin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telefunken


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> [COLOR=222222]Also on the topic of Telefunken / RFT - don't quote me on this but it looks like RFT may have been a sort of collaboration or sub-brand of Telefunken. And all the Telefenken / RFT tubes of the same class do seem to have a strikingly similar appearance so it may not matter which of these two brands you buy.[/COLOR]






oskari said:


> Not necessarily that surprising: Telefunken assets in the Soviet zone, such as the tube factory in Neuhaus, were taken over by RFT.




RFT was the umbrella organization in the field of radio and tubes and such in East Germany. And you can quote me on this.


----------



## connieflyer

@Oskari great information, inteesting to know this. So many famous brand names that have been bought out and products marketed as "originals"..


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> RFT was the umbrella organization in the field of radio and tubes and such in East Germany. And you can quote me on this.




I should add that Telefunken continued making tubes, too, in West Germany. This took place in Ulm and Berlin (West Berlin if you insist).


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> H1, which camp do you put Valvo in? They are both Philips and German (if made in Hamburg)?


 
  
 Hi O...it looks like once again we're gonna have fun and games with just who actually made what with these EL11s, or whose _design_ was followed...viz below and pct's "Telefunkens" lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  
 As for _my _Valvos, which are Black Glass '40s tubes, they would be the Philips camp...given their _oval_ plates. But it's possible of course that later ones - especially if _Grey_ glass - might _just_ be to the (true!) original Telefunken _round_ plate design...we'll need future owners to (hopefully) confirm! This could well get tricky!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


pctazhp said:


> As far as I can tell, mine were made in Santa's workshop. Anyone have a good recommendation for leather restoration???


 
  
 Hi pct.
  
 Well, my dear friend, it looks like you might just be the first to be 'misled' as per my reply to Oskari...ie. Philips 'made-for-Telefunken' tubes...that plate looks _oval_ to me lol! I honestly thought Telefunken didn't succumb to this type of confusion...this could indeed prove _very_ tricky!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(looks like Oskari's original hunch was spot on LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## DecentLevi

I for one didn't say the EL3N's are the same as EL11/12's, only that they are both pentodes. And that would be interesting if they do have the same internal construction, being how different they sound from each other.
  
 I would say it doesn't really matter who actually made the tubes - if you want to get a great tube you read about from someone's experience, just get another pair of similar appearance / codes / logos and they should perform similarly.


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hi pct.
> 
> Well, my dear friend, it looks like you might just be the first to be 'misled' as per my reply to Oskari...ie. Philips 'made-for-Telefunken' tubes...that plate looks _oval_ to me lol! I honestly thought Telefunken didn't succumb to this type of confusion...this could indeed prove _very_ tricky!!
> 
> ...


 
 I ordered them mainly because they looked cooler to me than the normal TFK EL11 and the boxes looked exotic. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  But it's all in the interest of science


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Mon ami, your work paid off again and led to the creation of another tube amp from FA. It's up on their website now, including revised pricing for Elise and Expressivo.
> 
> Me thinks they like 'E'.


 
  
 Thanks UT...and yo, we've got there at last! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(you must have discovered F-A's site update while my back was turned lol...you are so _on the ball!!.._CHEERS!).
  
 I do feel sorry for those who missed the 2016 Elise price...costs do seem to be rising all the time alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The 10% discount for the new Euforia looks a good deal to me, and I personally believe this price especially is well worth the extra over Elise. Even the full price I'm sure will prove very competetive as time goes by...
  
 Re. the EL11, I am sending Lukasz a pair of RFTs I've adapted so they can test them properly for safe use in our amps, and _hopefully_ encourage them to make their own 'approved' adapters for this tube...will keep y'all informed as to progress...(I'm certain they will be just as impressed as we are with this tube...).
  
 Cheers for now....and  HAPPY LISTENING! everyone...and G'night ...


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> I for one didn't say the EL3N's are the same as EL11/12's, only that they are both pentodes. And that would be interesting if they do have the same internal construction, being how different they sound from each other.




If they have the exact same construction, they could be the exact same tube but the base. In that case, they should sound exactly the same as well.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> *If they have the exact same construction*, they could be the exact same tube but the base. In that case, *they should sound exactly the same as well.*


 
  
 Yo Oskari (and @DecentLevi)...if they both have the same _*oval*_ plates then they *will* indeed sound similar, barring sometimes slight differences between factories of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> I ordered them mainly because they looked cooler to me than the normal TFK EL11 and the boxes looked exotic.    But it's all in the interest of science :etysmile:







hypnos1 said:


> Yo Oskari (and DecentLevi)...if they both have the same _*oval*_ plates then they *will* indeed sound similar, barring sometimes slight differences between factories of course! :wink_face: ...




Still, there were many Philips factories plus associaties that made these tubes. Without codes, it's extremely difficult to know who made what. I doubt they all sound exactly the same.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Hi O...it looks like once again we're gonna have fun and games with just who actually made what with these EL11s, or whose _design_ was followed...viz below and pct's "Telefunkens" lol! :wink_face: ...




Always half the fun.


----------



## DecentLevi

@hypnos1 while I'm totally in favor of F.A. testing and further adapting the EL11 (and EL12!) to their amps, I would caution it may end up a fruitless cause as the stocks of these seem to be in danger of going extinct forever... unless current owners sell theirs. Maybe though it could be a worthwhile endeavor if a factory would theoretically start making new EL11/12's of identical construction though to keep up a future supply & demand.
  
 IME the sonic differences between EL11 and EL3N are substantial. EL3N's to me are have much slower & softer dynamics, much darker and more euphonic as opposed to the clean / expansive / smooth sound of the former, with even more 'presence'.
  
 Also I must re-emphasize that while the EL11/12 are my favorite pairing overall, I am by no means replacing them with my entire 'fleet'. I still prefer EL11 + TS 5998 or + GEC 6AS7G depending on the recording


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> If they have the exact same construction, they could be the exact same tube but the base. In that case, they should sound exactly the same as well.


 

 For what it's worth, measuring from the top of the base of each tube, my EL11s are about 1 inch taller than my Philips EL3Ns, are fatter and the shape of the glass is a little different.


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1. From close visual inspection of the EL11, I can see it really doesn't look like the photo. I can't even see the thing that looks like an oval plate in the picture. I think that is just light reflection. I've tried taking a better picture, but to no avail.
  
 Looking down from the top I can see a grey cylinder (vertical) directly underneath the top rectangular metal piece, extending down toward the base. Inside the cylinder there appears to be a vertical plate that could be mesh. It certainly is not solid. Edit:  It looks long and rectangular. I can't see anything that looks oval or round (other than the round cylinder). Maybe the elves in Santa's workshop had their own proprietary design 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Don't know what any of this means. Just reporting.
  
 Second edit:  Both tubes do say "Made in Germany".


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1. I just went back and looked at your picture of the broken Australian Philips EL3N*G. *I guess the solid cylinder I'm seeing in my EL11 is what you refer to as "mesh" in that picture. The rectangular vertical thing inside the cylinder of my tube doesn't look the same as in your EL3NG picture. Mine is not solid but it doesn't look like the mesh in your picture. It kind of looks like a ladder with the rungs made out of small silver horizontal wires.
  
 So who knows??? THE SHADOW KNOWS ))))


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1 I have decided that I'll take advantage of Euforia's preorder so you won't be alone in the new thread.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Hard to keep up with the barrage of posts and the news of the new euphoric heights in the pipeline...
  
 Anyhow, tried my (pseudo KR VT-231) RCA 6SN7GTB UH with the GE 6BL7 as you suggested. Surprised how nice this combination sounds - very musical, a little dark and without the fireworks dynamics of the TS5998.
  
 All in all very enjoyable with good detail,and great and sweet midrange - a very listenable setup. (And very affordable to boot).


----------



## LaCuffia

So a question from a novice tube roller....recently been using the Sylvania 6SN7 GT (so called "Bad Boy") drivers and at first there was a lot of static. It was more pronounced when I lightly touched the base while in use. Cleaned the pins and base with isopropyl alcohol and that improved things but still notice intermittent static sound. Not nearly as bad as before though. Does this mean the tubes are dying out? I don't want to risk using them further if they could damage the amp and/or headphones.


----------



## mordy

Try to clean the pins by scraping gently with a small knife blade (doesn't have to be sharp) working your way around the tube pins - sometimes this helps.


----------



## mordy

Enjoying the 6SN7/6BL7 set-up - the Elise runs cool as a cucumber...
  
 I am happy
  
 
  
 The sound quality on my version is much better than on this YouTube version, but you get the idea of New Orleans Renaissance in the 60's.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1. I just went back and looked at your picture of the broken Australian Philips EL3N*G.* I guess the solid cylinder I'm seeing in my EL11 is what you refer to as "mesh" in that picture. The rectangular vertical thing inside the cylinder of my tube doesn't look the same as in your EL3NG picture. Mine is not solid but it doesn't look like the mesh in your picture. It kind of looks like a ladder with the rungs made out of small silver horizontal wires.







hypnos1 said:


>







lord raven said:


>







oskari said:


>


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hmmmm UT -* that colour should be pale amber,* methinks lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know. I look at the chestnut brown and I get headache. Plus it's time to have a new amp with shining new sockets. I promise I won't go nuts with tube rolling again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Lukasz replied to my email. They have been reading my hamster jokes and the zillion and one posts. Gasp ! All the thrust and parry I did with Pct and Cf. Horrors !
  
 It looks like they already have a few orders for Euforia and I'll probably be looking at having mine in March.


----------



## Jozurr

Do you guys consider EL 11 to be better than EL3N? What would be a decent price for a pair?


----------



## UntilThen

jozurr said:


> Do you guys consider EL 11 to be better than EL3N? What would be a decent price for a pair?


 
 I do. EL11 has precision and clarity with great high frequency extension. It certainly sounds brighter and faster than EL3N but the latter has it's own appealing attributes, namely a relaxing and musical tone.
  
 It appears that the german branded EL11 have the attributes I describe above. Brands such as Telefunken and RFT.
  
 A decent price of a pair will depend on condition of the tubes. I generally buy NOS tubes if possible. This is the seller I bought from and a similar looking pair.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL11-power-tubes-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-EL33-KT61-E2d-EL-11-/281707137287?hash=item41970dc907:g:iwsAAOSwstxVae7V


----------



## Jozurr

I wish some of you people with tubes lived here in SF so I could try them out!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> So guys, I have to say that while all the enthusiasm about* EL11* has been well placed, it strikes me as a bit perplexing... you see, *EL12*'s are every bit as special on the Elise as EL11, to which I have confirmed on my amp. After trying EL11's up against nearly every other power in my system, and trying EL12's up against every other driver in my system, and together, these three things become clear to me:
> 
> 
> El11 and EL12's are BOTH in a whole other league, and both share similar sonic attributes as well as possibly similar construction
> ...


 
  
 Firstly, the EL11/12 combo works a special magic for me too. I also like the EL11 as the powers, with EL12 as drivers, which you described in a previous post. Very rich, solid, dynamic, holographic sound
 I still think the EL3N's have a warmer sound and wider soundstage- but as several have already noted, the EL's are deeper in stage, more detailed and, for me, more realistic.
  
 I don't hear any deficit in bass with the T1g2. I have thought, ever since I bought my HD650, that it could, in general, benefit from a bit more bass and our old friends at G1217 I see now do a 'Kameleon' which adds missing bass to the HD650. I know your HD650 is already modded so you may already have extra bass anyway. I would encourage you to trial a T1 or HD800/HD800S. I think you would like them. Though maybe you now have your eyes on the new amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for future trials with the double adapter, well yes when it arrives I'll try all possible combos, within the 6.8mA limit. Unfortunately, the post from China is taking many weeks to reach us here in the UK, so I fancy it will be a long wait. I'll post on the earlier thread, of course.


----------



## HOWIE13

jozurr said:


> I wish some of you people with tubes lived here in SF so I could try them out!


 
 I would love to live in SF.


----------



## UntilThen

Took me a while to find @hypnos1 1st post of Euforia and the pictures. 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4185#post_13101193
  
 I wonder if Euforia will come with the silver feet. It's not mention on the list of upgrades.


----------



## HOWIE13

My Telefunken EL11's came with very tarnished pins but once cleaned I really like their gold colour with silver tips. Classy looks for classy sound.
  
 Looks like I've a bit more cleaning to do with this one!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I know. I look at the chestnut brown and I get headache. Plus it's time to have a new amp with shining new sockets. I promise I won't go nuts with tube rolling again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I hope to be joining you, but later in the year. I guess we had better behave better on @hypnos1 new thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Are you tempted to try the EL12???


----------



## pctazhp

@Oskari  Thanks for finding that Lord Raven post. Clears up a lot for me.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I hope to be joining you, but later in the year. I guess we had better behave better on @hypnos1
> new thread :eek:
> 
> Are you tempted to try the EL12???




Already ordered EL12 and extra adapters a few days ago.


----------



## richdytch

This page made me laugh quite a lot: 
  
 http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/coconut_audio.html


----------



## pctazhp

richdytch said:


> This page made me laugh quite a lot:
> 
> http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/coconut_audio.html


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Already ordered EL12 and extra adapters a few days ago.


 

 I look forward to your impressions.  For the moment, I'm a little burned out on opening shipping cartons.
  
 Right now I'm listening to c3g/Bendix 6080. Sounds so wonderful


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> I ordered them mainly because they looked cooler to me than the normal TFK EL11 and the boxes looked exotic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well my dear friend, in the interest of comradeship (and seeing you may well indeed have fallen foul of the "pea soup" world of tube labelling/marketing alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), if on further inspection with Oskari's helpful shots, and mine below - plus of course their _*sound*_ lol! - they are indeed more like the EL3Ns you already have, then the pair of RFTs I'm sending to Lukascz for testing will be _*yours*_, mon ami. The one with the white tape is marking dead front centre - had to break off the base pin guide, as I didn't notice it wasn't perfectly vertical until too late!...(so shoot me lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...
  

  
 Below is the round "true" Telefunken designed plate...it's a BIG beggar lol!!
  

  
 Below, the oval Philips design...with those crimped "fins"
  

  
 It needs a really bright torch to see them a bit more clearly!!


oskari said:


> Still, there were many Philips factories plus associaties that made these tubes. Without codes, it's extremely difficult to know who made what. I doubt they all sound exactly the same.


 
  
 Yo Oskari....folks will need to study very closely pictures of the TFKs that have proved to _*be*_ "true" Telefunkens lol!!  It would appear those with the _*complete*_ grey coating are fairly safe, as do the RFTs _seem_ to be...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. Thanks for the photos for pct...
  


pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1. From close visual inspection of the EL11, I can see it really doesn't look like the photo. I can't even see the thing that looks like an oval plate in the picture. I think that is just light reflection. I've tried taking a better picture, but to no avail.
> 
> Looking down from the top I can see a grey cylinder (vertical) directly underneath the top rectangular metal piece, extending down toward the base. *Inside the cylinder there appears to be a vertical plate that could be mesh. It certainly is not solid. *Edit:  It looks long and rectangular. I can't see anything that looks oval or round (other than the round cylinder). Maybe the elves in Santa's workshop had their own proprietary design
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo pct...that's the profile cathode, with heater and grid windings. Hopefully my and Oskari's photos give you more of a clue lol!
  
 And just like "Made in England", "Made in Germany" can also be misleading...as O says, Philips had interests in Germany..._*even tubes labelled "Telefunken"!!*_


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I know. I look at the chestnut brown and I get headache. Plus it's time to have a new amp with shining new sockets. I promise I won't go nuts with tube rolling again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well UT, mon ami...looks like you - as with myself - are hankering for that (big!) bit more lol! I really did think we'd both reached "the end of the road"..._*should have known better!!*_








...
  
 But my goodness, to have your and my old (sorry!) friends' company on the new thread fills me with great joy...more wonderful times ahead...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. And like you, I relish the thought of no longer needing to punish our babies with _endless_ rolling....(?????!!!!!!)...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Well my dear friend, in the interest of comradeship (and seeing you may well indeed have fallen foul of the "pea soup" world of tube labelling/marketing alas!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 H1:  Upon even *closer* inspection, with guidance from you and @Oskari, it appears my plate may be oval, but it is difficult to tell for sure. However, it clearly is smooth and lacks the crimped fins.
  
 I can't believe the fact that I ordered tubes because I liked the boxes has led to this many posts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I guess the proof will just have to be in the pudding, assuming I'm eating pudding when I first listen to my EL11s


----------



## vl4dimir

Hi guys, sorry if I seem a noob but I'm new here (and in tubes). Even if I haven't received my Elise, I've read a little bit here about tubes (used to have tubes in my old Lyr: telefunken e88cc & dario miniwatt e188cc) and i'm quiet intrigued to test because I remember it changed a lot the sound of my lyr and it wasn't 100% otl.
 The ones that seems particularly well regarder are the EL11 & EL3N. If I understand correctly it's the same but from different brand (?)
 And what are the expected changes ? I'll use the elise exclusively with the HD650


----------



## connieflyer

Okay @hypnos1 where is the new thread to be found?  How can we subscribe if we can not find it? Boy you would think someone with your experience would put that out immediatly,  By the way those tubes going to Lukasz, you did a beautiful job on those.  I am wondering in you have had time to check the EL11 El2 compared to the E11 and 5998?  Al the best on the new venture.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Okay @hypnos1 where is the new thread to be found?  How can we subscribe if we can not find it? Boy you would think someone with your experience would put that out immediatly,  By the way those tubes going to Lukasz, you did a beautiful job on those.  I am wondering in you have had time to check the EL11 El2 compared to the E11 and 5998?  Al the best on the new venture.


 

 I suspect he is waiting for you, @UntilThen and me to promise to act like gentlemen on the new thread. I'll promise if both of you will. Scouts honor and all that


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp you know that at my age, I hate to make promises that may that if fact make remaining life to boring, but if that is the only way to find out about my new amp, I suppooooooossssseeee I will try, never having been a scout, except in the bars for the ladies, you will just have to take my word for it.  I am good for it,(okay that statement may not be reeeeaaaaaallllly accurate)!
  
 Listening to Bonnie Tyler my little Welsh girl friend.  I send this to @DavidA  I am sure he will be up sometime today.
  

  
 and this one is for you, I promise I will try to be good!


----------



## connieflyer

And my favorite, as if anyone cares,


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> H1:  Upon even *closer* inspection, with guidance from you and @Oskari, it appears my plate may be oval, but it is difficult to tell for sure. However, it clearly is smooth and lacks the crimped fins.
> 
> I can't believe the fact that I ordered tubes because I liked the boxes has led to this many posts.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well pct....if they sound more like those _strawberries_, rather than the _blueberries_(?), then they're the Philips stable lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Oh...and just to confuse matters even further, I've seen those oval plates with the crimped "fins" _*out of sight under the top mica lol!!!*_





...Sometimes I swear those darned tube makers did things like this _*deliberately*_ to confound us poor suckers much further down the road LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...And so if they're _*oval*_, they are in all probability _*Philips*_ design...(So get eating that delicious pudding!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


connieflyer said:


> Okay @hypnos1 where is the new thread to be found?  How can we subscribe if we can not find it? *Boy you would think someone with your experience would put that out immediatly,  By the way those tubes going to Lukasz, you did a beautiful job on those.  I am wondering in you have had time to check the EL11 El2 compared to the E11 and 5998?*  Al the best on the new venture.


 
  
 Yo cf....just _another_ ten pages of notes to finish first lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 But thanks for your good wishes nonetheless, my good friend!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


pctazhp said:


> I suspect he is waiting for you, @UntilThen and me to *promi**se to act like gentlemen on the new thread*. I'll promise if both of you will. Scouts honor and all that


 
  
 Oh yes indeed, pct....or could that just be... *"The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"* lol?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. I was indeed Patrol Leader just a wee while back...(
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)...


----------



## connieflyer

Good to know I am in good company, eager to join the new group, and explore the Euphoria.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Good to know I am in good company, eager to join the new group, and explore the Euphoria.


 
  
 Really do hope you manage to join us cf...but you must promise to be a _*good*_ boy....well, _most _of the time anyway!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Took me a while to find @hypnos1 1st post of Euforia and the pictures.
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4185#post_13101193
> 
> *I wonder if Euforia will come with the silver feet*. It's not mention on the list of upgrades.


 
  
 Yo UT...her feet should indeed be aluminium...(although I still like to give even better isolation by using 3 (or 4) hardwood 'cone' feet lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Always half the fun.


 
  
 Hmmm, my dear O...methinks there could well be a good few (many?!) out there who just _might_ disagree lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Anyway, enough of this...I'd better go get packing things for Lukasz...and writing another _twenty_ pages for the new thread!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Well pct....if they sound more like those _strawberries_, rather than the _blueberries_(?), then they're the Philips stable lol!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 If this keeps up I may just have to break the glass and find out. Is the glass really that important??? Never mind answering that


----------



## connieflyer

hypnos1 said:


> Really do hope you manage to join us cf...but you must promise to be a _*good*_ boy....well, _most_ of the time anyway!! :bigsmile_face: ...


Okay if you insist, I promise to behave. Of course once my amp arrives, all bets are off!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp you know that at my age, I hate to make promises that may that if fact make remaining life to boring, but if that is the only way to find out about my new amp, I suppooooooossssseeee I will try, never having been a scout, except in the bars for the ladies, you will just have to take my word for it.  I am good for it,(okay that statement may not be reeeeaaaaaallllly accurate)!


 
 I'm afraid we will be proof that "you can't teach old dogs new tricks". Have you had any luck with Connor on that front????




  
 Let's hope @hynos1 isn't taking his notes like this:


----------



## connieflyer

Connor has me trained well and it is on going. What makes you think he is using ink pen? I heard he is using bits of charcoal from the fireplace!


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Connor has me trained well and it is on going. *What makes you think he is using ink pen? I heard he is using bits of charcoal from the fireplace!*


 
  
 Er...wrong, guys - think more...._fingers_...dipped in _*blood  *_lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Time to finish the precious cargo to Poland...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Frederick Rea

hypnos1 said:


> Yo UT...her feet should indeed be aluminium...(although I still like to give even better isolation by using 3 (or 4) hardwood 'cone' feet lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I use 3 of these since the first day (black one)
 "Ceraball"


----------



## connieflyer

Winter in Michigan Manistee River a bit north of me I did not take this picture.


----------



## UntilThen

Having paid for the Euforia I need to crack some jokes to ease the pain. 

Now @hypnos1 why Euforia? Did you have any inside info why it's call Euforia and not Sophie 

Btw my pain is lessened now knowing that aluminium feet are included. Just hope they are isolation feet. 

Hey I even get the Psvane drivers.

Also I will keep Elise so I can compare the 2 amps.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Having paid for the Euforia I need to crack some jokes to ease the pain.
> 
> Now @hypnos1 why Euforia? Did you have any inside info why it's call Euforia and not Sophie
> 
> ...


 
 Excellent. Looking forward to that.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Good to know I am in good company, eager to join the new group, and explore the Euphoria.




It's Euforia not Euphoria


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Excellent. Looking forward to that.




And do dodgy things like Elise as preamp into Euforia haha.


----------



## mordy

Are the power tubes the same Svetlana tubes as before?


----------



## connieflyer

So you are saying I cannot enjoy Euphoria when listening to my new Euphoria amp? Well this is a great start!


----------



## hypnos1

frederick rea said:


> I use 3 of these since the first day (black one)
> "Ceraball"


 
  
 Those sure look fancy feet, F R...bet they cost a lot more than my Oak cones though, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


untilthen said:


> Having paid for the Euforia I need to crack some jokes to ease the pain.
> 
> Now @hypnos1 why Euforia? Did you have any inside info why it's call Euforia and not Sophie
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey UT...I feel your pain even across the other side of the World...along with everyone else's lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But I look forward to having _my_ pain eased once folks get to hear their 'Euforias'!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Am still waiting for any clues as to how F-A came up with that name, and who in the family first suggested it (perhaps whoever it was is demanding silence until reaction to the name comes forth!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).
  
 And great news that you'll be able to compare the 2 amps side-by-side...I really do regret not being able to do that myself. Now all you've gotta do is get a LaFigaro 339; an Eddie Current; a Liquid Glass; a Glenn Audio; a Woo Audio; a.........!!!!!.... and you shall ascend to REAL God-like status LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Are the power tubes the same Svetlana tubes as before?




I believe so but I'm hoping they will slip in a pair of gec 6as7g for me.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Now all you've gotta do is get a LaFigaro 339; an Eddie Current; a Liquid Glass; a Glenn Audio; a Woo Audio; a.........!!!!!.... and you shall ascend to REAL God-like status LOL!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's for you to find out at your next London meet or if they decide to hold a Canjam in Sydney. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Btw my invoice is #97


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Winter in Michigan Manistee River a bit north of me I did not take this picture.




Winter in Lapland


_Ylläs_


_Saana_


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> And do dodgy things like Elise as preamp into Euforia haha.


 
  
 Ooohhh....sounds interesting UT!...HOWEVER...if that extra soundstage is what appeals (plus a great deal more !), I suggest you get scouring Down Under for a pair of those Australian Philips EL3N*G*s with the mesh plates lol!
  
 Sorry for the endless repetition, but the more I come back to my Valvo versions the more I am totally stunned by their performance. The soundstage is absolutely phenomenal; the additional detail equally amazing; placement/separation like I've never heard before; clarity, precision, air and treble that eclipse even the wonderful C3g; bass control, detail and tone that is in perfect balance with all other frequencies; mids to die for....need I go on?!...no?... I thought not LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I suspect there isn't a 'pre-amp' to either Elise or Euforia on the entire Planet that could accomplish anywhere near all these feats...and I am _*not*_ exaggerating here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 So get yer back pack out, my good friend...these things are better than any Cooper Pedy opals lol!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


connieflyer said:


> So you are saying I cannot enjoy Euphoria when listening to my new Euphoria amp? Well this is a great start!


 
  
 Hah...I can see we're in for a load o' fun on the new thread before I'v even started it lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....speaking of which, time for me homework!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

@Oskari and @connieflyer  please spare a thought for Sydneysiders sweating in the heat.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> So get yer back pack out, my good friend...these things are better than any Cooper Pedy opals lol!!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Omg where would I find EL3Ng now. I'll see if I find it on the beaches.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Omg where would I find EL3Ng now. I'll see if I find it on the beaches.


 
  
 Very much doubt it, mon ami....but what FUN grilling those gals for info on their possible whereabouts lol!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...now stop tempting me away from my duties!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> @Oskari and @connieflyer please spare a thought for Sydneysiders sweating in the heat.




Poor sods. Anything above +22 is too much, really.


----------



## pctazhp

As a gentleman I want to say the ladies exhibit admirable character.


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Hi guys, sorry if I seem a noob but I'm new here (and in tubes). Even if I haven't received my Elise, I've read a little bit here about tubes (used to have tubes in my old Lyr: telefunken e88cc & dario miniwatt e188cc) and i'm quiet intrigued to test because I remember it changed a lot the sound of my lyr and it wasn't 100% otl.
> The ones that seems particularly well regarder are the EL11 & EL3N. If I understand correctly it's the same but from different brand (?)
> And what are the expected changes ? I'll use the elise exclusively with the HD650


 
 There are a lot of combos that sound really good with stock hd650.
  
 I'll name a few.
  
 Siemens c3g and Tung Sol 5998
  
 Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Tung Sol 5998
  
 EL11 and 5998
  
 EL3N and 7236
  
 c3g and Bendix 6080wb
  
 ... and cheaper options
  
 6sn7 and 6BL7
  
 c3g and RCA 6080


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> @Oskari
> and @connieflyer
> please spare a thought for Sydneysiders sweating in the heat.


Love the beach blankets


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. New project for you while you wait for your Euforia:


----------



## UntilThen

Later guys. Have fun. Hope to see the Euforia thread in the evening @hypnos1 .


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> That's for you to find out at your next London meet or if they decide to hold a Canjam in Sydney.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm organizing a CanJam in Ukraine for next year. It will be in the east behind Russian lines but flak jackets will be issued when you land in Kiev.
  
 I may have to attend CanJam in London to pick up some pointers and meet our Fearless Leader.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 This amp is made in Ukraine:
  




 http://dnepropetrovsk.all.biz/en/lamp-amplifier-g7746876#.WHP1OX1vA6Y
  
 The company repairs trucks and makes vacuum tube amplifiers:
  
 http://237928.ua.all.biz/en


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> This amp is made in Ukraine:
> 
> ...


 
 It's got that certain unique Soviet era appearance. Maybe I'll have to get one and start a competing thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit:  The more I think of the new thread the more I like it. I will have my own personal Gestapo to deal harshly with any unauthorized humor or inappropriate attempts at sarcasm. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Of course, truck repair and vacuum tube amps. Goes together like:


----------



## UntilThen

I see why it's call Euforia.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I see why it's call Euforia.


 

 Either that, or F-A needs to hire @connieflyer as their English language proof reader.
  
 Geeeez. When is @hypnos1 going to start that new thread, which will be highbrow enough as to not tolerate senseless clutter such as this post.


----------



## connieflyer

Now is that something to drink or a shampoo? Have been rotating power tubes in the Elise, just using the K-R 231's and interesting changes they make. So far the T-S 5998's are the best, the 6bl7 is my least favorite, followed by G-E 6as7g, then the Russian 6as7g, now going to try my original Thomson- CSF 6080's and they sound just behind the 5998's, then going for the RCA Gold Lion 5998A.


----------



## connieflyer

Wait senseless clutter?  I know he is a prim and proper English Gentleman, but he better learn to put up with "clutter".  Last I heard from him he is writing his tome on the new amp and wearing himself out. We may have to rescue the new thread almost immediately!


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> Either that, or F-A needs to hire @connieflyer as their English language proof reader.




The name is obviously in Finnish. (Possibly Italian, Polish, Portuguese, or Spanish.) 



 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euforia


----------



## connieflyer

I am quite impressed with these inexpensive CF-Thomson 6080's, they are sounding quite good. Upper register of the female voice is to die for, listening to this cut now and pretty interesting indeed


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Wait senseless clutter?  I know he is a prim and proper English Gentleman, but he better learn to put up with "clutter".  Last I heard from him he is writing his tome on the new amp and wearing himself out. We may have to rescue the new thread almost immediately!


 

 I'll drink to that


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> The name is obviously in Finnish. (Possibly Italian, Polish, Portuguese, or Spanish.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's all Greek to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me


----------



## connieflyer

Instrumentation is nice top to bottom here for $10 tubes these in this price range are great.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> It's all Greek to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me :blink:




Quite right. 



 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ευφορία


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I am quite impressed with these inexpensive CF-Thomson 6080's, they are sounding quite good. Upper register of the female voice is to die for, listening to this cut now and pretty interesting indeed




 That's beautiful CF. Those CF-Thompson 6080s must be good. This is not an easy recording to reproduce without glare or harshness. It sounds wonderful on my c3g/Bendix 6080, but obviously a significant price differential.


----------



## pctazhp

I'm having dinner tonight with my best friend. I've known him since high school. He's like my brother. I can't believe how fast the time has passed since we drove backwards through Jack-in-the-Box and thought it was the funniest stunt man had ever devised.
  
 Sorry to leave you today with this video, but it's very much on my mind this afternoon. Wish all of you a great day and many great days to come. See tomorrow - God willing))))


----------



## aqsw

pctazhp said:


> That's beautiful CF. Those CF-Thompson 6080s must be good. This is not an easy recording to reproduce without glare or harshness. It sounds wonderful on my c3g/Bendix 6080, but obviously a significant price differential.




Its funny how my cheap Thomsons sound so good, but the TS5998s I had just distorted. The Thomsons are the real deal for their price..

Communicating with Lucasz now about the euforia. Will be getting one. Im asking for another upgrade. Will see if he can comply.


----------



## aqsw

Also a big Ray Price fan.
I grew up listening to him, Martino, sinatra, etc.when I was very young.These were what my Mom listened to.
Although i grew up in the Stones and Beatles era, I come back to the songs I listened to as a youngster all
the time.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys...it's midnight here for me, and I've just finished the first, introductory post on the new *EUFORIA THREAD*...so see you there soon... hopefully!  :http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing
  
Now I need a scrub and some shuteye...CHEERS for now...CJ


----------



## DecentLevi

jozurr said:


> Do you guys consider EL 11 to be better than EL3N? What would be a decent price for a pair?


 


> IME the sonic differences between EL11 and EL3N are substantial. EL3N's to me are have much slower & softer dynamics, much darker and more euphonic as opposed to the clean / expansive / smooth sound of the former, with even more 'presence'.


  
 Decent pairs seem to be going for around $100. Somewhat dissatisfied with loose bases and a moderate channel imbalance of my EL11's, I ordered the backup pair shown below. My thinking was that since they are from RFT which seems to have a close association with Telefunken, are the same shape, and look in much greater condition that they should sound the same, accounting for possible burn-in since these are NOS.
 However much to my surprise, after inquiring with the eBay seller he told me the *"production codes"* on this pair were 04.02.73 and 04.02.74... while of course I can see those numbers on the tube photo I knew not what they meant. It was the seller who placed a period between the codes 040273, leading me to assume this is a *date code* (???)... strange thing is that I thought EL11/12's were only manufactured in the 40's-50's. But the boxes sure look an older style. I'll just have to wait and see if these sound comparable to the 40's era ones that I have.
  
 From this link, the seller has 9 more of these available at $47 each, and of the production codes he mentions below:
  
6 tubes 04.02.74

2 tube 04.02.73
1 tube 04.22.85


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Either that, or F-A needs to hire @connieflyer as their English language proof reader.
> 
> Geeeez. When is @hypnos1 going to start that new thread, which will be highbrow enough as to not tolerate senseless clutter such as this post.


 
  
 Started pct...not _too_ highbrow, I hope lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


connieflyer said:


> Wait senseless clutter?  I know he is a prim and proper English Gentleman, but he better learn to put up with "clutter".  Last I heard from him he is writing his tome on the new amp and wearing himself out. We may have to rescue the new thread almost immediately!


 
  
 And yes, cf..._*worn out, lol!!*_...more through trying to whittle down from those 20+ pages!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but probably still guilty of indigestion by association!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 Now let me go scrub!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## connieflyer

Scrub away my friend but don't expect us to go easy on you. We may be old but we are wise well PCT is


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> However much to my surprise, after inquiring with the eBay seller he told me the "production codes" on this pair were 04.02.73 and 04.02.74... while of course I can see those numbers on the tube photo I knew not what they meant. It was the seller who placed a period between the codes 040273, leading me to assume this is a date code (???)... strange thing is that I thought EL11/12's were only manufactured in the 40's-50's. But the boxes sure look an older style. I'll just have to wait and see if these sound comparable to the 40's era ones that I have.




That likely is or contains a date code but not like that. This is the best explanation I've seen: YWW???. 1960 seems plausible. Btw, the tubes were made in Mühlhausen. Do you see the sort of hidden letter m?


----------



## DecentLevi

OK folks, so I've just done some extensive testing to see which tubes pair well on the Elise with DSD files - being the rare one who has all of the top rated tubes including EL11+12, I thought I'd take the time to share my findings with you.

  
 So I've realised that I prefer different tube combos not only depending on musical genre and headphones used, but also depending on file type *and *the way the album was recorded... welcome to my 'daily challenge'... or should I say 'non-stop adventure' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thus being said, I've noticed DSD files (SACD format) necessitate different tube combos on Elise than standard PCM (AKA .WAV / CD format). As I've recently acquired the RFT EL12N + Telefunken EL11 combo, I gave this a go on my Gustard X12 DAC playing DSD's in native mode_ 
 (bit perfect mode bypassing the Windows soundcard, into my DAC via both Wyrd USB signal enhancer and Singxer SU-1 USB reclocker / interface via AES "EBU" cable for *greatly *improved signal transport than a "direct USB connection"... note that I2S "HDMI" is the best transport for any DAC's that accept it, though it was having issues on my system)._
  
 As it turns out, the EL11+12 combo with DSD files is a double-edged sword: On one hand, it yields world-class sound with presence, 3D imaging and realism that is perhaps unrivaled - yet on the other hand it's actually_ too_ dynamic... you see, the SACD format in general yields a sound that has much faster / sharper transient responce (dynamics), more lifelike sound with greatly increased sense of air / openness / imaging / layering than PCM files... but this faster dynamics seem to be overbaked when paired with EL11+12, being that they are already quite grand / snappy in the dynamics dep't. So on one side of the sword, it was one of the best sonic experiences of my life, but on the other hand it had overtly sharp dynamics, making it not the best setup for DSD unless perhaps for 'softer', recordings with less rhythm emphasis...
  
 As part of my extensive comparison of top tube combos to both PCM / DSD, I've realised it seems the EL11+12 tube combo have a sublime and perhaps untouchable ability to bring out the best of PCM and even MP3 files... almost as if they're compensating for minor shortcomings with the PCM codec itself with their added sense of presence and dynamics; whereas with DSD it sounded like the EL11+12 pairing was _too good_ for an already flawless audio file.
  
 So aside from the above mentioned, here are* notes on my findings* after doing an extensive multi-track/genre comparison of the EL11 and/or EL12 and/or other top tubes using mainly DSD and some PCM files on my Elise:
  
 * EL11+EL12's together sound extraordinary and the best with everything except for rhythmic DSD files
 * EL12's as powers do not pair with any miniature tubes, including assorted 12AV7, ECC88, etc.
    this is something I've discovered in recent days; as both are somewhat vivid / detailed, the result is always too 'fleshed out' / sharp
 * EL11 as drivers + most powers can be _nearly _perfect for DSD files, _especially_ with GEC 6AS7G or quad EL3N, but can still borderline too sharp
 * GEC 6AS7G and quad-EL3N are always top performers as powers when it comes to DSD
 * Comparing both EL11's and assorted miniature tubes as drivers, none of the 6SN7's can compete
    this is to say that even my Ken-Rad VT-231 and 'Bad Boy' 6SN7's don't come close to top miniature tubes such as RCA 12AV7 or Tungsram E80CC, or the EL11 in terms of presence, realism and dynamics
 * For electronic music, especially lossy formats, completely different pairings come into play _(another topic)_
  
*Below is my final / current list of top tube pairings for DSD files on the Elise, in order from best to 'still good'*, yet excluding many that didn't make the cut.
_  note: however these were also tested with PCM files, so many of these will sound quite fantastic on your standard 'redbook' files as well. EL11+EL12 are still king, but not for most DSD_
  

*GEC 6AS7G + EL11*
   very realistic, liquid, smooth, extended, immaculate presence, & spot-on 3D soundstage
     * can be overtly dynamic for some recordings
*Quad EL3N + EL11*
   very expansive almost exaggerated soundstage, great realism & frequency extension
*GEC 6AS7G + Tungsram E80CC *
   realistic, somewhat 'liquid' bass, great natural intimate presence, detailed, proper. 
     * GEC’s are more proper and resolving than quad EL3N. An irreplaceable combo just a hair behind the top two yet can still be preferable, of which the top two were both equally good in different ways
*Quad EL3N + RCA 12AV7*
   proper & extended bass, lifelike, larger soundstage but less presence than above; immersive and slightly more laid back than above
  
 And as always, these statements are IMO and YMMV - yet are based on deep knowledge and thorough testing


----------



## louisxiawei

decentlevi said:


> OK folks, so I've just done some extensive testing to see which tubes pair well on the Elise with DSD files - being the rare one who has all of the top rated tubes including EL11+12, I thought I'd take the time to share my findings with you.


 
 With all respect, DL. I think what you did is just tuning the sound. Since there is no relation between tube combo of amplifier and music format. The DAC, however, does.
  
 Although lots of DACs on the market support both PCM and DSD up to 512, in some cases, the same recording with different format sounds totally different on some DAC.
  
 As far as I know:
  
*Best with DSD input*: iFi, Oppo, T+A, Teac, exaSound, Fostex, Sony, PS audio, and some ESS Sabre-based  DACS such as merging NADAC

*Best with PCM input*: Chord DACS, NAD, Schitt (Yggy), Prism Callila
  
Since upsampling and filtering technology are two crucial things to justify a good DAC or a good CD/SACD player. Using only one filter to process signal cannot fulfill all users' music taste. That's why professional upsampling music player like HQplayer offers an opportunity for computer audiophile to use various filters for upsampling with its own designed algorithm. Or, if your wallet is healthy enough, you can try dCS's extravagent upsampler.
  
 Take exasound or T+A DAC8 DSD for example, both of them are DSD native designed dac. In their cases, DSD algorithm result in a big different sound compared to PCM's. With the help of a powerful PC's CPU, HQplayer can upsample PCM file to DSD256 or DSD512 with various filters, making the sound more organic, musical, natural image, fine sounding to users' own taste.
  
 However, music preference of each individual differs. Those users who enjoy clinical sound will still prefer PCM sounding on those DSD native DAC which I cannot understand at all since I like real, musical, natural sounding.
  
 The quality of the upsampling filters also matters, some users upsample PCM file to DSD512 on nativeDSD dac like T+A DAC8 DSD with *jrvier**, **jplay* result into a weird sounding, which is far inferior to HQplayer's performance. So far, *HQplayer* is a solid, professional upsampling player because the developers know what they are doing. dCS's Ring DAC technology, Chord's pulse array, ESS's hyperStream modulator + Revolver DEM, HQplayer developers can look those fancy marketing name through and kindly tell noobs like me that they are all delta-sigma modulator combined with DEM conversion stages.
  
 Some DAC is not sensitive to music format at all. Prism Callia also supports DSD file, HQplayer upsampling has no effect on sound improvement. Neither does chord dave. Mainly because the dac itself upsampled all the file internally with fixed fiter.
  
 Some DAC such as Rockna wavedream is sensitive to HQplayer upsampling filters but its PCM and DSD's sound has little difference. Its upsampled 352.8 PCM sounds identical to DSD512, which indicates that PCM and DSD' DA algorithm in this DAC is equally good.
  
 The designers of the DAC also have their own preference to PCM or DSD. For example, Chord loves PCM, PS audio loves DSD. 
  
 In conclusion, you should really focus on DAC to justfy the music format on sound quality instead of tube combo. CA got lots of threads regarding format discussion on SQ, you should have a look.
  
 Amplifier handles analgoue signal, DAC handles digital singal, ridiculous to link digital music format to amplifiers, bro.


----------



## DecentLevi

@louisxiawei of course I was tuning the sound with tubes - that's what most of the Elise threads have been all about. I was explaining which tube pairings are likely to sound better with which digital format that goes into this analogue amp, from my experiences. There is a relation between synergy of digital formats and tube pairings, for example in which I explained that sharp / dynamic tubes do not pair well with the DSD format which is also quite sharp, making it overtly dynamic; of course varying depending on the source recording. 
  
 In terms of DAC "ipnuts", I was referring to the physical connection, IE the cable type which use different data transport algorithms resulting in different sonic results to the DAC; and I mentioned that the I2S, AKA HDMI cable connection is generally renowned as having the best data transport to a DAC if one is available on your system. I had also never mentioned anything about upsampling in the above post, but rather compared the way different file types (in their native mode) synergise better with different tube combos on the Elise.
  
 Upsampling from a PCM file which has a finite amount of curves will never have the resolution of DSD, which has many times more bits from a higher source master to begin with. Those who like clinical _and _real natural sounding alike should both like DSD better than PCM, because both of those are technically what this format brings to the table. And those DAC's you mentioned to be "best" with DSD input are all mid-fi - I would recommend looking into the Holo Spring DAC if you want a serious DAC for both DSD and PCM, both in the acclaimed R2R format.
  
 One point you had however was that the sound from each DAC can tune the sound differently - however it would _appear _that tube rolling is an easier customization than DAC rolling for somebody with myriads of tube choices in front of them.
  
 And what the heck is CA .. Cyber Acoustics?
  
 Congratulations Louis, you have managed to disastrously misread / misunderstand my entire post above, and missed all the points 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... at least look at my bullet points or the ones underlined.


----------



## louisxiawei

decentlevi said:


> @louisxiawei of course I was tuning the sound with tubes - that's what most of the Elise threads have been all about. I was explaining which tube pairings are likely to sound better with which digital format that goes into this analogue amp, from my experiences. There is a relation between synergy of digital formats and tube pairings, for example in which I explained that sharp / dynamic tubes do not pair well with the DSD format which is also quite sharp, making it overtly dynamic; of course varying depending on the source recording.
> 
> In terms of DAC "ipnuts", I was referring to the physical connection, IE the cable type which use different data transport algorithms resulting in different sonic results to the DAC; and I mentioned that the I2S, AKA HDMI cable connection is generally renowned as having the best data transport to a DAC if one is available on your system. I had also never mentioned anything about upsampling in the above post, but rather compared the way different file types (in their native mode) synergise better with different tube combos on the Elise.
> 
> ...


 
. 
  
 No offensive DL, I didn't misread what you wrote above. It is just silly to link digital music file and amplifier together. If you talk this on CA (computer audiophile), I promise you, you will be laughed big time. Since players over there are more straightforward. I'm being friendly here.
  
 You will have no chance to compete a top league DAC such as Lampizator Big 7, soloution, nagra, accuphase with a just-so-so dac with tube-rolling of amplfiier and hoping the sound quality is at the simialr level. The economic plan doesn't go like that.
  
 The sound is just in a different league no matter how you roll the tube with whatever file you use. 
  
 Maybe you misread what I wrote, upsampling is nothing about resolution, it's filtering, and music doesn't sound better because of music file format or more bits but its DAC's own filtering and algorithm.
  
 BTW, if you think those best dsd input dac I mentioned are all mid-fi, I have no idea why you recommend Holo Spring DAC as serious DAC. Make no sense to me.
  
*To prove you wrong, the best practice is: by changing your DAC into another one, all your concluded tube combo sounds best with DSD file will be overturned.  *
  
 Maybe you will argue back with more wrong points, I will just stop expanding this topic because it's a thread of Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp this is one you need to smooth out the wrinkles of the day. Put it on the other page, to get @hypnos1 to calm down, seems to be working, no sign of him yet. The flute will help bring the day into gentle focus!


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen from your memory banks


----------



## vl4dimir

Hi guys does any of you from Europe have a spare pair of EL3N (with adaptors possible) to sell? also a pair of adaptors for el11/12 would be great
  
 thanks


----------



## UntilThen

It's 2017 and my mind hasn't change one iota about Elise. She's a wonderful amp. Highly recommended. Details, clarity, fast transient response that only good tube amps can produce. Started off at $499 introductory price, then went to $649 which is the price I paid. You'll find even seasoned Head-Fiers wondering how FA can produce such a great sounding tube amp at that price.
  
 Price then went on to $699. We've just seen another revision to $849 with minor changes and extended warranty. The price hike is justified because Elise has been under priced for far too long.
  
 Now FA has produce another headphone tube amp and call it Euforia. 
  
 Sometime ago, I made this comment about the impending arrival of Euforia. 
  
*"Wonder if there's any re-tuning done?*
  
*I hope this will translate into an Elise with more snap attack, even faster transient response, bite and transparency. Although I cannot envisage if that would be a better outcome as Elise in it's current state, is perfecto for me."*
  
 All I can say is that I hope Euforia will translate into an Elise with more snap attack, even faster transient response, bite and transparency.


----------



## connieflyer

vl4dimir said:


> Hi guys does any of you from Europe have a spare pair of EL3N (with adaptors possible) to sell? also a pair of adaptors for el11/12 would be great
> 
> thanks


If you can noth find any I have 6 extra and two dual adapters.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> It's all Greek to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me


 
  


oskari said:


> Quite right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll have to second that—yet it's not to be mistaken with "Εφορία", which is the name of the IRS office in Greece (http://www.wordreference.com/gren/Εφορία).
  
  
 But I'm not biting. Got a lot of listening to do with the older model _with_ the Psvane drivers, though I just got into comparison mode and ordered a pair of RFT EL11s matched at 28mA and three RCA 6080s which I won at an auction for $20 along with a Westinghouse GE 6080.


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> Also a big Ray Price fan.
> I grew up listening to him, Martino, sinatra, etc.when I was very young.These were what my Mom listened to.
> Although i grew up in the Stones and Beatles era, I come back to the songs I listened to as a youngster all
> the time.


 

 Me too))) I had the privilege of seeing Ray Price in concert in 2007. One of the best I've ever seen.
  
 This one is especially for @connieflyer. I suspect it may have special meaning for him:


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> I'll have to second that—yet it's not to be mistaken with "Εφορία", which is the name of the IRS office in Greece (http://www.wordreference.com/gren/Εφορία).
> 
> 
> *But I'm not biting. Got a lot of listening to do with the older model with the Psvane drivers, *though I just got into comparison mode and ordered a pair of RFT EL11s matched at 28mA and three RCA 6080s which I won at an auction for $20 along with a Westinghouse GE 6080.


 
 I hear you loud and clear. At the point I've sorted out things involving my move to Europe in the next 2 or 3 months, I'll be jumping on the Euforia bandwagon. But, honestly, that's mainly due to my Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - and candidly my respect for @hypnos1. But it is difficult for me to imagine how I will derive any greater listening enjoyment than I now have with our beloved Elise.


----------



## pctazhp

Without being too direct, I must report that my scalp is in need of immediate medical attention due to excessive head scratching over some recent posts.


----------



## connieflyer

Well better your head than....


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Well better your head than....


 

 Now I also need emergency medical care for my stomach from excessive and uncontrolled laughing


----------



## connieflyer

Be careful now, remember it is better to wake up and pee then to pee and wake up


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Be careful now, remember it is better to wake up and pee then to pee and wake up


 

 I'm grateful whenever I can do EITHER


----------



## connieflyer

LMAO!


----------



## Oskari

vl4dimir said:


> Hi guys does any of you from Europe have a spare pair of EL3N (with adaptors possible) to sell? also a pair of adaptors for el11/12 would be great
> 
> thanks




http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/ still lists the tubes.


----------



## vl4dimir

oskari said:


> http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/ still lists the tubes.


 

 Thanks, I've sent them an email


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> I'll have to second that—yet it's not to be mistaken with "Εφορία", which is the name of the IRS office in Greece.




I can see how this could lead to diminished euforia.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> I can see how this could lead to diminished euforia.


 
  
 Beginning to get _real _worried here, O....first, bottles of goodness-knows-what, and now _*IRS*_ offices?...think I'm gonna become a hedgehog for the rest of the Winter lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(only our local hogs keep coming out for a sniff...is there no rest for the wicked?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## hypnos1

vl4dimir said:


> Thanks, I've sent them an email


 
  
 Hi vl4...if you have difficulty, I probably have a couple to spare...
  
 As for EL11 adapters, if you're in no real hurry, I've just sent F-A a pair of RFT tubes for testing purposes, so as to at least get confirmation that they will not cause our amps any problems. In addition, I'm hoping to convince them that due to the stellar performance of this tube (which I'm quite sure they will have to agree with once they hear it lol!!), it could be a good idea for them to make their own 'approved' adapters. So hope to get feedback on these points _fairly_ soon lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


----------



## connieflyer

Don't even think about diminishing anything I haven't got it yet and you guys really tell me it's not going to work oh my word where is a tall building I can jump off of. Oh yeah make sure it's got an elevator at the top because I don't do stairs


----------



## UntilThen

It's going to be hard waiting for early March with all this talk about Euforia, diminishing or increasing. 
  
 I better tell Lukasz to hasten the production of my Euforia and I want it to come in a Genie bottle.


----------



## vl4dimir

Hi guys, you got me really hyped and I don't have yet my Elise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'am curious does the EL11/EL12/EL3N really make a huge difference in comparaison with the standard power tubes & psvane update ?


----------



## hypnos1

vl4dimir said:


> Hi guys, you got me really hyped and I don't have yet my Elise
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh yes, mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Hi guys, you got me really hyped and I don't have yet my Elise
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 No rush vl4dimir. Get your Elise first then sit down and calmly listen with Psvane driver and Svetlana 6H13C for a while and enjoy what this amp has to offer with hd650.
  
 There are lots of EL3Ns on this thread including adapters. I have 10 EL3Ns and 4 single adapters and 2 double adapters. 
  
 However if you're eager, well there's no harm in getting a pair of EL3N. You have to try it out for yourself someday. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Or skip EL3N and try the Teutonic EL11.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Beginning to get _real_ worried here, O....first, bottles of goodness-knows-what, and now _*IRS*_ offices?...think I'm gonna become a hedgehog for the rest of the Winter lol!! :wink_face: ...(only our local hogs keep coming out for a sniff...is there no rest for the wicked?!!!  )...




It's a nightmare with those bloodsuckers! You can't escape!


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> No rush vl4dimir. Get your Elise first then sit down and calmly listen with Psvane driver and Svetlana 6H13C for a while and enjoy what this amp has to offer with hd650.
> 
> There are lots of EL3Ns on this thread including adapters. I have 10 EL3Ns and 4 single adapters and 2 double adapters.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah I'll try it. However I didn't get the PSvane this why I was asking. Because with others tubes even if they are easy to find and not expensive you need adaptors (which seems a little bit a pain in the a** to get). Well is someone has adaptors for EL12/EL3N in europe just hit me


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> That likely is or contains a date code but not like that. This is the best explanation I've seen: YWW???. 1960 seems plausible. Btw, the tubes were made in Mühlhausen. Do you see the sort of hidden letter m?




Well, do you, punk?


----------



## DecentLevi

I can basically guarantee that nobody would be parting with their EL11 adapters yet (same one works for both EL11 / 12) because these adapters are fresh out and those that have it are loving it, so you would need to order a pair or two from Hong Kong. In my recent experience these are taking an average of 3 weeks to the US (and reportedly around a month to Europe), and the tracking doesn't work but it's a nice surprise when they arrive!


----------



## pctazhp

vl4dimir said:


> Yeah I'll try it. However I didn't get the PSvane this why I was asking. Because with others tubes even if they are easy to find and not expensive you need adaptors (which seems a little bit a pain in the a** to get). Well is someone has adaptors for EL12/EL3N in europe just hit me


 

 I personally think that 6SN7 tubes often get an unfair rap on this thread from exaggerated claims of unworldly superiority of one tube or another. However, most drivers recommended here that do require adapters involve adapters readily available from Mrs. X on Ebay for reasonable prices. It is very easy to order from her, but it does take a long time for her shipments from China to arrive in the US and Europe. I have 4 or 5 different pairs from her. It's interesting that when I'm listening to the 2 different drivers using her adapters that are among my favorite (c3g and EL3N) I am completely oblivious to the length of time it originally took me to get the adapters.
  
 Right now I'm waiting for the EL11 adapters I ordered from her.
  
 My experience here is that taste in different tubes here tend to ebb and flow, although over time certain tubes do seem to maintain consistent favor. But that doesn't mean that every tube is garbage unless it is either a flavor of the month or an established tube that has survived the test of time.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup and FWIW, the EL12 tubes as powers have managed to 'breathe new life' into some of my 6SN7 drivers, milking that extra 'sonic juice' that I've never gotten from them before, but maybe not quite as 'thirst quenching' as other combos such as Quad EL3N or GEC 6AS7G as powers + EL11 as drivers, not to mention EL11+12


----------



## pctazhp

Recently I've been listening to c3g/Bendix 6080. Just out of curiosity I replace the c3g with Sylvania 6SN7 I haven't listened to in a long time. Instant impression: highly enjoyable. Not quite as good as c3g, but I'm far from throwing up. Instead, just enjoying the music ))))


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Recently I've been listening to c3g/Bendix 6080. Just out of curiosity I replace the c3g with Sylvania 6SN7 I haven't listened to in a long time. Instant impression: highly enjoyable. Not quite as good as c3g, but I'm far from throwing up. Instead, just enjoying the music ))))


 Hi @pctazhp, care to elaborate on the term "enjoyable"? From what I gather so far the c3g are highly analytical, as I gather the EL types are at a relative measure. How would you describe the sound of the Sylvanias by comparison?

Joke's on me now, having ordered my pair of RFT EL11 from  but having to wait until mid-February to get my Ms X adapters from ! Still, I am looking forward to compensate with a meeting with Stavros and an educational hands-on listening session through his inventory. Probably will come out a bit shorter too, financially speaking!


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Agree with you about the the 6SN7 tubes. They tend to be overlooked among all the exotic driver tubes that we have tried, but in certain combinations there is great synergy, and I have found them very enjoyable.
  
 What do I mean with enjoyable? Simply put, very musical and non-fatiguing. The mid range and timbre are excellent, even though the FR extremes and punch may not match some other tubes fully (but close).
  
 Presently I am listening to RCA 6SN7GTB UH/TS5998.
  
 BTW, when i substituted the Mazda 6N7G as drivers, I got distortion - why?


----------



## mordy

Hi CF and pct,
  
 This picture shows which direction this thread is heading:


----------



## connieflyer

I didn't realize that everything was blue here but I guess it was if you say so. Lmao


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Hi @pctazhp, care to elaborate on the term "enjoyable"? From what I gather so far the c3g are highly analytical, as I gather the EL types are at a relative measure. How would you describe the sound of the Sylvanias by comparison?
> 
> Joke's on me now, having ordered my pair of RFT EL11 from  but having to wait until mid-February to get my Ms X adapters from ! Still, I am looking forward to compensate with a meeting with Stavros and an educational hands-on listening session through his inventory. Probably will come out a bit shorter too, financially speaking!


 

 I think @mordy provided an excellent answer to your question. His description is consistent with my experience.
  
 I had the c3gs from my Little Dot Mk IV days when I first got the Elise. At that time I was using T1G2 headphones and didn't like the upper register glare I experienced with the c3gs. By the time I had switched to HD800S they were in my drawer forgotten. Later @UntilThen suggested I try the c3gs with my S and at that point I found I liked them a lot. I think the S is more forgiving of upper range glare than the T1s. Hope that helps. Again, I don't think I can improve on mordy's description, even though we are using different 6SN7s.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Agree with you about the the 6SN7 tubes. They tend to be overlooked among all the exotic driver tubes that we have tried, but in certain combinations there is great synergy, and I have found them very enjoyable.
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry mordy. Don't have a clue (((


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I didn't realize that everything was blue here but I guess it was if you say so. Lmao


----------



## JazzVinyl

Your in for a BIG surprise....


[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VRzah-XGN7k[/VIDEO]


----------



## JazzVinyl

The great Hiram Bullock...makin' look easy:


[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dSOL2ym99Bw [/VIDEO]


----------



## vl4dimir

I think I'll start to try a single pair as driver while keeping the original power: Do you recommend to get the PSvane as drivers or EL3N + adaptors ?


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> I think I'll start to try a single pair as driver while keeping the original power: Do you recommend to get the PSvane as drivers or EL3N + adaptors ?


 
 If you want to sample something different from 6SN7, then I suggest you pick up a pair of EL3N and adapters.
  
 I've not heard from @RedBull for a while and this is what he has to say to me.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/15#post_13162108


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> No rush vl4dimir. Get your Elise first then sit down and calmly listen with Psvane driver and Svetlana 6H13C for a while and enjoy what this amp has to offer with hd650.
> 
> ...


 
 Fellow enthusiast, don't sweat it too much... just let the Elise burn in for maybe around 8 hours / day for a few days (especially if it's not overheating), and see if you like how the sound develops with what you've got. If you've already got any 6SN7 (including PSvane) + EL12, or EL11+12, no reason to reach for the EL3N's, unless you're seeking a huge soundstage then I'd recommend you go quad EL3N powers + basically any drivers.
  
 Or if you have a specific sonic preference (sound attributes) you're seeking, let us know.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hi @pctazhp, care to elaborate on the term "enjoyable"? From what I gather so far the c3g are highly analytical, as I gather the EL types are at a relative measure. How would you describe the sound of the Sylvanias by comparison?
> 
> Joke's on me now, having ordered my pair of RFT EL11 from  but having to wait until mid-February to get my Ms X adapters from ! Still, I am looking forward to compensate with a meeting with Stavros and an educational hands-on listening session through his inventory. Probably will come out a bit shorter too, financially speaking!


 
 A comparison of Siemens C3G, Sylvania 6SN7gtb chrome top and Telefunken EL11 should be useful in this thread. They are quite different in their sonic signatures. Give me a bit of time and I'll try and articulate what I hear from these tubes with the gear that I use.
  
 With any tube comparisons in Elise, it's necessary to decide on a power tube to be used with all 3 drivers. I think Tung Sol 5998 would be a good choice here. I will use my modded hd650 as it's quite common amongst users here.
  
 I posted a short summary of differences between EL11 and EL3N from what I hear. That impression is still true for me now after spending more time with TFK EL11.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/4965#post_13149111
  
  
 Wait I have a better idea. I'll have @HOWIE13 do this as I won't have much time until the weekend.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> A comparison of Siemens C3G, Sylvania 6SN7gtb chrome top and Telefunken EL11 should be useful in this thread. They are quite different in their sonic signatures. Give me a bit of time and I'll try and articulate what I hear from these tubes with the gear that I use.
> 
> With any tube comparisons in Elise, it's necessary to decide on a power tube to be used with all 3 drivers. I think Tung Sol 5998 would be a good choice here. I will use my modded hd650 as it's quite common amongst users here.
> 
> ...


 

 You are most generous with Howie's time. I will look forward to the fine work of which both of you are capable.
  
 Why can't I sleep tonight??? Sleeping is my most accomplished talent


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> You are most generous with Howie's time.


 
 It's call team work here on Elise thread. Besides he's my Scottish cousin.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> It's call team work here on Elise thread. Besides he's my Scottish cousin.


 
 AMAZING- and what a team-we read each other's minds! As it happens it was so windy and wet in Scotland this morning I had just already compared my Siemens C3g, and Telefunken EL11's as drivers, with 5998 powers when I read your posts.
  
 The EL11's are very detailed-not really at all like EL3N, listening today: deeper sound stage, though not as wide or as warm as EL3N's as we have already discusssed. EL11's have very realistic depth and remarkable imaging, even at the extremes of the sound stage- best I've ever heard (I think). For me, I find EL11's generally preferable to EL3N's, except when a particularly warm, wide sound is required (I'm sure someone else also suggested that in the last day or two 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 The C3g's were very much like C3g's: punchy, crisp, overall nicely integrated for the female voice, instrumental and piano solos I was playing,  but interestingly not quite as transparent as the EL11's. That may or may not be advantageous depending on the recording.
  
 Both combos had good volume and were background noise free. Oh, and I must mention what a delight the EL11/12 to 6SN7 adapter is to use-so easy compared to the paddle footed EL3N tube adapter.
  
 I'm really enjoying the new pleasures these EL11 and EL12 tubes are bringing with Elise and my T1g2.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> The EL11's are very detailed-not really at all like EL3N, listening today: deeper sound stage, though not as wide or as warm as EL3N's as we have already discusssed. EL11's have very realistic depth and remarkable imaging, even at the extremes of the sound stage- best I've ever heard (I think). For me, I find EL11's generally preferable to EL3N's, except when a particularly warm, wide sound is required (I'm sure someone else also suggested that in the last day or two
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 How nice! I'm so glad I got on the EL11 bandwagon, these are great sonic qualifications according to my taste—*oh, wait! I have to wait for the adapters... *
  
 Thanks for your input @mordy, @pctazhp, and @UntilThen, looking forward to my own impressions. Having skimmed through an ocean of posts in various threads, it looks like the TS5998 is a must–have power tube in terms of a reference point, right? Less exotic than the GEC, but more special than the 6080 variety—and priced accordingly too.
  
 On a different note, does anyone have any experience/opinion on the 7N7? JAC–Music says it's a worthy equivalent of the Sylvania 6sn7 but for much less money:


> _"NOS. Sylvania. Electrically fully equivalent to Sylvania 6SN7 angled plate, but 7N7 uses a LOCTAL socket (not octal). So 7N7 is a 6.3 Volt tube, and all electrical data is 100% identical to 6SN7. Fantastic test data. Just take two random tubes, and you have a matched pair."_ (link)


 
 See also here: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.gr/2015/02/tube-of-month-7n7.html


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> How nice! I'm so glad I got on the EL11 bandwagon, these are great sonic qualifications according to my taste—*oh, wait! I have to wait for the adapters... *
> 
> Thanks for your input @mordy, @pctazhp, and @UntilThen, looking forward to my own impressions. Having skimmed through an ocean of posts in various threads, it looks like the TS5998 is a must–have power tube in terms of a reference point, right? Less exotic than the GEC, but more special than the 6080 variety—and priced accordingly too.
> 
> ...


 

 My most sincere and heart felt condolences. It didn't take us long to corrupt you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Happy tube-rolling ))))
  
 The 5998 is a great tube and pretty widely used by members here (I think), so from that standpoint it is a reference point. But I would not rate it ahead of my GEC6080, Bendix 6080 or GEC6AS7G. So much a matter of choice and system.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> My most sincere and heart felt condolences. It didn't take us long to corrupt you


 
 Yup! Though, there _are_ limits I wouldn't dare reach!... (expressed recurrently with no inhibition whatsoever, here and the other Elise threads)


----------



## HOWIE13

@angpsi
  
  
_'Having skimmed through an ocean of posts in various threads, it looks like the TS5998 is a must–have power tube in terms of a reference point, right?'_
  
  
 We do keep coming back to the 5998, it's rather like the HD650 when describing cans. Sure, there are tubes people prefer more but it's a high standard that lots of folk on these threads are aware of and are familiar with its sound character, either because they have read about it, or own the tube.
  
 I would echo previous advice to let Elise 'burn -in' for a while before committing to expensive tubes, Fortunately the EL11, EL12 and their adapter are relatively affordable, just now.
  
 I'm waiting to test my EL11's in the dual adapter- I'm anticipating great things from an EL11 '6 pack' -but sometimes things don't always live up to our expectations.
  
  
_ _


----------



## Frederick Rea

Because ELISE can't live without good music:
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explained#GKZxHBjbCOlyr73h.97


----------



## pctazhp

frederick rea said:


> Because ELISE can't live without good music:
> http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-decoding-explained#GKZxHBjbCOlyr73h.97


 

 Thanks. Very interesting and helpful.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> On a different note, does anyone have any experience/opinion on the 7N7? JAC–Music says it's a worthy equivalent of the Sylvania 6sn7 but for much less money:
> See also here: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.gr/2015/02/tube-of-month-7n7.html


 
 7N7 are indeed equivalent of the Sylvania 6sn7. Most 7N7 are made by Sylvania. Oskari can confirm whether this is true.
  
 I have a pair of Raytheon 7N7 in the early days of my Elise which I thought highly of. I took it to the Sydney meet, paired with 5998. It needs an adapter though.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @vl4dimir....I notice that once again DecentLevi has been giving out information _*contrary to Feliks-Audio advice!!*_...They _*DO NOT *_recommend running the amp for more than 5 to 8 hours max. non-stop, _*regardless*_ of how others may have fared. So PLEASE ignore his so-called 'advice'...this is the second time I've had to step in on Feliks-Audio's behalf concerning this member and is wholly unacceptable....(moderators informed).


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @angpsi...re. the 7N7 (with adapter!)...back in my LittleDot days I personally found the 'Chrome Dome' examples (I believe they were all made by Sylvania) to be among the best of the '6SN7' type...and are apparently second only to the early Sylvania 6SN7W...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi @vl4dimir....I notice that once again DecentLevi has been giving out information _*contrary to Feliks-Audio advice!!*_...They _*DO NOT *_recommend running the amp for more than 5 to 8 hours max. non-stop, _*regardless*_ of how others may have fared. So PLEASE ignore his so-called 'advice'...this is the second time I've had to step in on Feliks-Audio's behalf concerning this member and is wholly unacceptable....(moderators informed).


 
  
 I wholeheartedly agree - don't burn in Elise non stop for a few days. My idea of burn in is to just listen to music. It will get burn in in due time. No rush. So max 5 to 8 hours a day then power it down.
  
 You wouldn't run in your new car non stop for a few days I'm sure. 
  
 And you wouldn't try to stay awake non stop for a few days..... I hope.


----------



## vl4dimir

hypnos1 said:


> Hi @vl4dimir....I notice that once again DecentLevi has been giving out information _*contrary to Feliks-Audio advice!!*_...They _*DO NOT *_recommend running the amp for more than 5 to 8 hours max. non-stop, _*regardless*_ of how others may have fared. So PLEASE ignore his so-called 'advice'...this is the second time I've had to step in on Feliks-Audio's behalf concerning this member and is wholly unacceptable....(moderators informed).


 

 Thanks for the advice! Usually I listen max 1-2h per session & almost never more than 5h per week so I should be fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 And I also never burn-in my gear.
  
 p.S: actually I have exams so I'll probably test it for 1h and then pack it for 2-3 weeks until I finish. I just bought my gear so it's ready to jazz at the end of the road


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hi @vl4dimir....I notice that once again DecentLevi has been giving out information _*contrary to Feliks-Audio advice!!*_...They _*DO NOT *_recommend running the amp for more than 5 to 8 hours max. non-stop, _*regardless*_ of how others may have fared. So PLEASE ignore his so-called 'advice'...this is the second time I've had to step in on Feliks-Audio's behalf concerning this member and is wholly unacceptable....(moderators informed).


 
 I also agree with you. He destroyed one Elise and yet still gives out this kind of irresponsible advice.


----------



## vl4dimir

I've read that on others thread some recommend also to let powered on the dac full time (schiit multibit). Does it really affect the sound? I mean is there a science behind that or is it just placebo ?


----------



## pctazhp

vl4dimir said:


> I've read that on others thread some recommend also to let powered on the dac full time (schiit multibit). Does it really affect the sound? I mean is there a science behind that or is it just placebo ?


 
 Something like a non-tube DAC is an entirely different matter than a tube amp. I leave my Bimby on all the time without any problem and consistent with recommendations from the Schitt threads. I think many feel there is probably less stress to solid state electronics to leave them on rather than turning on and off daily. But clearly, F-A has made it clear that the Elise should not be left on for more than 5 to 8 hours at a time, with probably a minimum 1-hour break between sessions.


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> Closing in on 80 hours of consecutive burn-in, things are opening up! Speaking of bass, here's today's Tidal find - Billie's Blues by Cassandra Wilson - to which the HD600 are rendering a very interesting soundscape (very revealing too)!



 Quote: 





pctazhp said:


> Something like a non-tube DAC is an entirely different matter than a tube amp. I leave my Bimby on all the time without any problem and consistent with recommendations from the Schitt threads. I think many feel there is probably less stress to solid state electronics to leave them on rather than turning on and off daily. But clearly, F-A has made it clear that the Elise should not be left on for more than 5 to 8 hours at a time, with probably a minimum 1-hour break between sessions.


 
  That's exactly the mentality that got me making my first newb mistake...  When I 'd first got my [ss] ATC SIA–150 I was recommended by the distributor to leave it on consecutively if possible (albeit with detrimental economic effects to my power bill). But valves seem to be an entirely different species, needing a very different kind of maintenance. Thankfully UT was quick to shake me back into sanity.
  
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> Consecutive 80 hours !
> 
> Power it down after every 8 hours @angpsi. It's not stress testing.


 
  
 For what it's worth (the term being known to be abused greatly in this thread), the Elise stayed rather cool the whole time—probably because the ambient temperature was low. Personally, I'm just glad I didn't have to suffer from my ignorance!


----------



## connieflyer

Most member here are very helpful.  @UntilThen is especially helpful.  When I told him I may be going to Australia he sent me this poster for my safety.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> 7N7 are indeed equivalent of the Sylvania 6sn7. Most 7N7 are made by Sylvania. Oskari can confirm whether this is true.




Yes, it is (including your Raytheon). National Union made some, too.


----------



## angpsi

Got a quote for the valves plus adapters; the valves go for €8,50 a piece, but the (gold plated / ceramic) adapters go for €29 a piece! The lot should cost me €100 including shipping cost... Wonder if they're worth it... (the 7n7 on offer are quoted as equivalent to the angled plate Sylvanias)


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Got a quote for the valves plus adapters; the valves go for €8,50 a piece, but the (gold plated / ceramic) adapters go for €29 a piece! The lot should cost me €100 including shipping cost... Wonder if they're worth it... (the 7n7 on offer are quoted as equivalent to the angled plate Sylvanias)


 
  
 Sorry angpsi...but IMHO you're far better off with EL3Ns, or EL11s if the "warmer" etc. character of the 3Ns doesn't appeal...


----------



## UntilThen

Sanity, helpful, spider rolling, keep the accolades coming. I'll make sure they include all that in my Australia Day award.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry angpsi...but IMHO you're far better off with EL3Ns, or EL11s if the "warmer" etc. character of the 3Ns doesn't appeal...


 Thought so @hypnos1, thanks!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Most member here are very helpful.  @UntilThen is especially helpful.  When I told him I may be going to Australia he sent me this poster for my safety.


 

 I'm not quite sure why, but this post kind of bugs me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But if it helps @UntilThen win his Australia Day award (whatever that is) I guess I'm ok with it.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Got a quote for the valves plus adapters; the valves go for €8,50 a piece, but the (gold plated / ceramic) adapters go for €29 a piece! The lot should cost me €100 including shipping cost... Wonder if they're worth it... (the 7n7 on offer are quoted as equivalent to the angled plate Sylvanias)




Just FYI, xulingmrs has suitable adapters for a lot less money.


----------



## connieflyer

pctazhp said:


> I'm not quite sure why, but this post kind of bugs me :eek: But if it helps @UntilThen
> win his Australia Day award (whatever that is) I guess I'm ok with it.


 I really think he deserves it anyways


----------



## DecentLevi

decentlevi said:


> Fellow enthusiast, don't sweat it too much... just let the Elise burn in for a few days (non-stop if it's not overheating), and see if you like how the sound develops with what you've got. If you've already got any 6SN7 (including PSvane) + EL12, or EL11+12, no reason to reach for the EL3N's, unless you're seeking a huge soundstage then I'd recommend you go quad EL3N powers + basically any drivers.
> 
> Or if you have a specific sonic preference (sound attributes) you're seeking, let us know.


 
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hi @vl4dimir....I notice that once again DecentLevi has been giving out information _*contrary to Feliks-Audio advice!!*_...They _*DO NOT *_recommend running the amp for more than 5 to 8 hours max. non-stop, _*regardless*_ of how others may have fared. So PLEASE ignore his so-called 'advice'...this is the second time I've had to step in on Feliks-Audio's behalf concerning this member and is wholly unacceptable....(moderators informed).


 
  
 As I hope can be seen from my original post above, I was simply trying to give helpful advice to a fellow hobbyist. I should admit though, that I happened to write the above in a rush when I was distracted, now re-reading that post I see believe what I really should have said in any focused state would have been more along the lines of leaving the Elise on only for a portion of each day for several days in order to speed up burn-in time - with supervision, but not more than 8*+* hours. I actually would like to correct that it was not my intention to recommend leaving the Elise on for 24+ hours non-stop although it would seem otherwise, and have edited that original post.
  
 On the topic of giving out information contrary to the advice of the manufacturer, *this is something that actually occupies much of Head-Fi in general*, with all the internal AMP/DAC/Headphone mods out there. Manufacturers generally publish guidelines on the cautionary side to reduce the risk of possible mishaps to their product. However those who are experienced / knowledgeable are able to modify / replace certain parameters safely. If we were to adhere to a hardline interpretation of the owner manual, then we would have never used any aftermarket tubes on the Elise, multi-tubes, adapters or external P/S. Given these are not always a positive result, but the vast majority of the time have been without issue, as these have largely been based off science and math.
  
 For me personally, the only time I may have published any advice contrary to the manufacturer would have been that one time when I suggested a higher theoretical max. current load that can be accepted on the Elise, however as originally mentioned it was a _hypothesis_, and I have since mentioned it no longer being necessary. One other possible instance was back in my multi-tube days when I was receiving a rustling sound after using a tube combo; however the same sound did (begin) to manifest itself again upon later trying something similar again with the new amp, the fact of this matter remains that at least one other person had done the exact same setup without issue, so whether or not it was actually my actions or an internal fault that caused the small issue with my original Elise remains a grey area. And on the issue of leaving on the Elise for longer periods, this is also something that can be _somewhat _flexible by those who know what they're doing, such as with the use of fans or especially if the amp is running cool.
  
 Thus being said, I would highly encourage anybody on Head-Fi in general to always include wording to the 'tune' of "_theoretically", "would this work?"_, or "_untested theory"_ when posting ideas that are untested, and this is something I can do also. Although I may have misspoke yesterday, I do maintain the notion that posting these sort of untested concepts does not violate the terms of Head-Fi, and that *experimentation is in many shapes and forms the key to progress - especially if it's done responsibly.*


----------



## angpsi

oskari said:


> Just FYI, xulingmrs has suitable adapters for a lot less money.


 You mean this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/201486546362


----------



## mordy

Hi CF,
  
 Not to worry - just skip to the last line.
  
Sydney Funnel-web Spider 


  
 The Sydney Funnel-web Spider (_Atrax robustus_) is possibly the most dangerous spider in the world. Both aggressive and capable this little horror has proven deadly on a number of occasions. There are a number of factors that ensure the Funnelweb’s place in the arachnophobes hall of fame; firstly they are aggressive. Whilst the vast majority of spiders will attempt to avoid confrontation, the Sydney Funnel-web will attack and attempt to bite whatever threatens it. In attacking the spider will cling onto the victim, biting repeatedly to make sure a full dose of venom is given.
 In addition to this willingness to bite the Sydney Funnel-web has a prodigious set of fangs. Pointing straight down these hollow fangs are bigger than some snakes and can be slammed into the prey with considerable force. It is said that the Sydney Funnel-web’s fangs can penetrate shoe leather and fingernails. With this devastating delivery mechanism the spider injects an appropriate dose of powerful atraxotoxin; a small amount for a fly but both barrels and full envenomation for anything that threatens it.
 Unusually for spiders it is the male funnel web that delivers the deadliest bite with the venom being around 6 times stronger. This neurotoxin is especially toxic to primates, attacking the nervous system within minutes. Although only 20% of bites cause a severe reaction the symptoms encountered can be extreme including muscle spasms, palpitations, vomiting, confusion and swelling of the brain. Deaths have occurred within 15 minutes of envenomation.
 Records suggest that the Sydney Funnel-web Spider has been responsible for 13 deaths over the years and where recorded these have been attributed to the male spider. However, since the introduction of an antivenom in 1981 there have been no fatalities.


----------



## angpsi

Also found this; what do you think? https://www.ebay.com/itm/201469510312


----------



## DavidA

I don't even have to watch the NatGeo to get great info on what to avoid in Australia.


----------



## pctazhp

National Geographic sounds very tempting right about now.


----------



## UntilThen

Holy smoke, what are these RFT EL12N made off. There's a sweet clarity that's rocking my brains and esophagus.
  
 Better take a bath first. Just came home.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi @angpsi...re. the 7N7 (with adapter!)...back in my LittleDot days I personally found the 'Chrome Dome' examples (I believe they were all made by Sylvania) to be among the best of the '6SN7' type...and are apparently second only to the early Sylvania 6SN7W...


 
 Yes an original Sylvania  'Chrome Dome'  is a wonderful tube but when buying Sylvania tubes on eBAY it is very much a matter of 'Buyer Beware' these days
  
 Many sellers will describe any Sylvania with chrome anywhere near the top of the bottle as a 'Chrome Dome', and as for 'Bad Boys', well that's become ridiculous.
  
 A real Chrome Dome, the legendary warm, sweet, voluptuous tube is purely marked 6SN7GT and has so much chrome that it's pretty well impossible to see any plate at all. They sound beautiful in Elise.
  
 Here's an example:
  
 Note how the reflection of the cupboard in the background goes all the way down the tube as the huge amount of chrome acts as a mirror.


----------



## Spork67

It's not just spiders...


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13 does your EL11 / EL12 tubes sit flushed with the adapters because mine doesn't. I cant get all the pins to be fully flushed but the contact still seems ok.

If this is the norm then I think the adapters aren't well made.

Don't they look like the hanging tower of Pisa.


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks @DecentLevi for amending your post...but your attempt at equating these particular kinds of matters with the broader topic of our experimental tube rolling for example does you no favours at all, I'm afraid.
  
 And does in fact prompt me once again - for the benefit of newcomers - to point out certain facts regarding divergence from _officially_ recommended tubes   :
  
*1. ALL the tubes I personally have tried - along with the long-established members of these Elise threads - have been mentioned to F-A, and although they cannot (as yet) officially endorse these 'alternatives', said tubes have at least been scrutinised for any obvious potential danger. We have then continued use at our own risk.*
  
*2. The use of very old tubes always carries the risk of possible problems, but this is true for all tube amp owners who wish to seek better performance over more recent offerings.*
  
*3. The use of third party adapters also carries certain risks, but luckily not too many folks seem to have had severe problems with these. But once again, their use must be - as far as F-A are concerned - at our own risk.*
  
 These are indeed factors that we all need to take into account, of course, when deciding how 'adventurous' we wish to be, and so I would advise all newcomers - novice or experienced - to follow the recommendations of those *well-established* members who give* reliable, tested, informed advice*...and help us to stay as *safe* as possible, even when straying _somewhat_ away from the straight and narrow lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








...CHEERS! everyone...CJ


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks for clarifying that H1, but I still get the feeling much of what I write recently gets overlooked save for one slice that gets the limelight, and many would agree on at least some of my recent points.
  
 UT that is a good point about the EL11 adapters - I've had the "Leaning Tower" effect on both pairs of my EL11 + 12's with those and some tubes never 'snapped' in, but the contacts were good nevertheless.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey has anybody else tried the HD-600 pairing with the Elise? My HD-650 has developed an unfortunate distortion on the right channel and I'm thinking to 'upgrade' (LOL) to an HD-600, seeing how the one I tried with my Elise really blew me away. The pairing was so exceptional that it almost seemed like a different headphone that the first HD-600 I tried with a previous amp, as if there's either some magic synergy between HD-600 + Elise, or it was somehow a special pair. 
  
 And BTW the problem with mh HD-650 was actually due to letting a casual listener give them a whirl at work off my DAP one afternoon... not to discover until it was too late he had been maxing out the volume to completely insane levels, after which the distortion which I hear on low frequencies was quite modest, but getting progressively worse over time.
  
 Also I would be interested in a T1 or HD-800, but am hesitant due to the way these inherently bright headphones effect my slight tinnitus, and am trying to save money.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> UT that is a good point about the EL11 adapters - I've had the "Leaning Tower" effect on both pairs of my EL11 + 12's with those and some tubes never 'snapped' in, but the contacts were good nevertheless.


 
 I've send Mr Xu Ling an email telling her that EL11 and EL12 tubes does not insert fully into the adapters. I'm surprised no one brought up about this earlier.


----------



## UntilThen

Despite my disappointment with the fit of EL11 / EL12 tubes on the adapters, here's my initial assessment of EL12N tubes.
  
 As my 2nd pair of adapters hasn't arrived from China, I'm unable to try out EL11 and EL12 combination.
  
 However using various 6SN7 as drivers and EL12N as power tubes, the sonic signature is a bit on the bright side, very clear and great mircrodynamics. RFT EL12N might sound quite similar to Telefunken EL11 but there's a subtle difference when you listen carefully. EL12N has a leaner, brighter tone. As a power tube, it seems to brighten up the music with even warm and lush drivers such as the RCA 6sn7gt smoke glass.
  
 I certainly like what I hear with Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue with EL12N as well as EL3N with EL12N.
  
 EL12N key attributes are bright, breezy with good dynamics and an engaging bass beat. @HOWIE13 has found a great sounding tube that doesn't cost a bomb.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Despite my disappointment with the fit of EL11 / EL12 tubes on the adapters, here's my initial assessment of EL12N tubes.
> 
> As my 2nd pair of adapters hasn't arrived from China, I'm unable to try out EL11 and EL12 combination.
> 
> ...


 
  


untilthen said:


> Despite my disappointment with the fit of EL11 / EL12 tubes on the adapters, here's my initial assessment of EL12N tubes.
> 
> As my 2nd pair of adapters hasn't arrived from China, I'm unable to try out EL11 and EL12 combination.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks UT and glad you like them. They sure add further to Elise's massive tube rolling capabilities. 
  
 My adapters are fine and sit flush. I can only assume they have produced a new batch which don't quite fit. I'm sure, knowing how helpful MrsX is, they will resolve the issue. 
 Annoying all the same even if the sound isn't affected as it looks odd and there's always the possibility of knocking the tube off it's pins if it's not flush. 
  
 One thing that might solve the problem in the meantime might be to shave a bit of the tip of the tube's plastic guide pin off with sand paper. It's probable they have fixed the board a bit too close to the socket and reducing the guide pin a bit may solve the problem, and if it works you could give the diagnosis to MrsX to sort out.
  
 On the other hand you may wish to just relax and listen to the music. Cheers! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 PS. Dunno why your quote came out twice-even though it's well worth repeating!


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Despite my disappointment with the fit of EL11 / EL12 tubes on the adapters, here's my initial assessment of EL12N tubes.
> 
> As my 2nd pair of adapters hasn't arrived from China, I'm unable to try out EL11 and EL12 combination.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...interesting update on the EL12N - a very promising-looking cheaper alternative to the "Holy Grails" lol. But I must admit I'm not at all impressed with how they look in those adapters, I'm afraid...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I can only hope my pleas to Lukasz for F-A to make their own are given _serious_ consideration (even if they're already up to their eyes in Elise _*and*_ Euforia orders LOL!!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What intrigues me about the EL12(N) is that from the prices and activity on ebay, those straight-sided 'N's appear far less popular than the 'Coke Bottle', ST shaped 12s. So methinks it's safe to assume that the pricier latter are even _*better*_, which, on the surface at least, could indicate a REAL giant killer lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...it remains to be seen...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps.  Have just noticed that _straight-sided_ EL*11*s seem to go for half the price of the STs lol...says something?!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Frederick Rea

ELISE deserves for our pleasure:
 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10VtON9VjMAt3uyHC2-Oo2MjIa3orv9DKZfwiRQKmTAA/htmlview#gid=945476039


----------



## Frederick Rea

hypnos1 said:


> Hi @vl4dimir....I notice that once again DecentLevi has been giving out information _*contrary to Feliks-Audio advice!!*_...They _*DO NOT *_recommend running the amp for more than 5 to 8 hours max. non-stop, _*regardless*_ of how others may have fared. So PLEASE ignore his so-called 'advice'...this is the second time I've had to step in on Feliks-Audio's behalf concerning this member and is wholly unacceptable....(moderators informed).


 
 I think this is a grate problem especially for beginners and even for the usual ones. I also think that if this is repeated without action being taken (deletion of post - ad in the same post) it can lead to unintended acts of someone that credibly want to try. It could also (although I think it is difficult or even discriminatory) to attribute "stars" to members dependent on credibility
 Greats to all


----------



## UntilThen

Found a site that view EL12 very favourably.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://m.review33.com/forum_msg.php?db=1&topic=54100807165734
  
 Quote:-
EL12N can take max 425V and is the worst sounding among EL12. But it still sounds better than GEC KT66 and most NOS EL34.
  
and
Imho EL12 can easily kill all the EL34 except maybe those vintage Gold Lion KT77 
Of all the pentode/tetrode I tried in single end mode, they are one of the best


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Found a site that view EL12 very favourably.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...looks like my suspicions were grounded after all lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..."still better than most NOS EL34"?...WOW!!!...so just what does that mean for the 'best' sounding EL12s?...!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...looks like my suspicions were grounded after all lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You know what that means right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Just when I tell myself 'no more tubes' after EL12N..... seriously no more tubes. I have other stuff to buy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Ps... I really do think you're psychic.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> You know what that means right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah yes...something else beginning with "E"!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## HOWIE13

It's interesting that there are so many instances of coke shaped variants being preferred to straight bottles.
  
 I wonder if it's to do with the fact that more old tubes are coke shaped and were better made, and as radios and other electrical stuff got smaller as the years went by tubes were made smaller and more compact.
  
 Just speculating.


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13 here's your answer.


----------



## UntilThen

Just want to sound out that EL12 is 1.2A. If you're using that as drivers, make sure that your power tubes don't tip the scale.
  
 6SN7 and EL12 is 3.6a 
  
 EL11 and EL12 is 4.2a
  
 EL12 and 6as7g is 7.4a <------- don't do this on Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> It's interesting that there are so many instances of coke shaped variants being preferred to straight bottles.
> 
> I wonder if it's to do with the fact that more old tubes are coke shaped and were better made, and as radios and other electrical stuff got smaller as the years went by tubes were made smaller and more compact.
> 
> Just speculating.


 
  
 Yo H13...most of us here (like many others with different amps) have indeed found the _old_ 'ST' tubes to usually give 'better' sound. I'm sure later incarnations were indeed made more robust, compact, 'reliable' etc., but in the process _sound_ appears to have been altered in the process...and not usually for the better it would seem! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Not only that, but somehow they seem to _*look*_ more the business! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(or it could be that I'm just getting so OLD lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)...CHEERS!...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Just want to sound out that EL12 is 1.2A. If you're using that as drivers, make sure that your power tubes don't tip the scale.
> 
> 6SN7 and EL12 is 3.6a
> 
> ...


 
  
 WELL SAID UT...*DO NOT EXCEED 7A total...(or 6.8 preferably)!!!*


----------



## pctazhp

Sad old man in Scottsdale suffering from information overload (((  With syanpse firing at maximum capacity (but well below manufacturer recommended maximum), the best I can decipher is that EL11/EL12 may not only be the flavor of the month, but a true classic (assuming one is not bothered by the Tower of Pisa effect). Any thoughts


----------



## UntilThen

Amazing sound from this combo. It gets better by the minute. Who would have thought that the stock drivers will sound clear and engaging. EL12N as power tubes has made a difference.
  
 I would love to hear EL11 and EL12, the leaning tower of Pisa.


----------



## JazzVinyl

For Bass Aficionados:



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NGvKKimrOc[/VIDEO]


.


----------



## angpsi

decentlevi said:


> Thus being said, I would highly encourage anybody on Head-Fi in general to always include wording to the 'tune' of "_theoretically", "would this work?"_, or "_untested theory"_ when posting ideas that are untested, and this is something I can do also. Although I may have misspoke yesterday, I do maintain the notion that posting these sort of untested concepts does not violate the terms of Head-Fi, and that *experimentation is in many shapes and forms the key to progress - especially if it's done responsibly.*


 
  
  


hypnos1 said:


> Thanks @DecentLevi for amending your post...but your attempt at equating these particular kinds of matters with the broader topic of our experimental tube rolling for example does you no favours at all, I'm afraid.
> 
> And does in fact prompt me once again - for the benefit of newcomers - to point out certain facts regarding divergence from _officially_ recommended tubes   :
> 
> ...


 
  
  


decentlevi said:


> Thanks for clarifying that H1, but I still get the feeling much of what I write recently gets overlooked save for one slice that gets the limelight, and many would agree on at least some of my recent points.


 
  
 I had meant to write something about this for a long time, especially since the flurry of superlatives in many posts here can often be misleading—or even confounding—to a novice such as myself. Moreover, the overt enthusiasm of members such as @DecentLevi can easily be taken for an educated validation of a certain setup, especially if that member is awarded "Headphones Supremus" status in the HeadFi constellation.
  
 Of course each member is responsible to cross–check one's assertions and compare with their own findings, albeit the number of posts in this thread and the other two that preceded it sum up to an ocean of information—and, indeed, sometimes a tumultuous one. Still it doesn't justify potentially hazardous advice with a prospect of detrimental effects to one's property. 'De gustibus' is one thing, but 'proceed at your own risk' is a completely different category of exploration.
  
 Since I did take the pain to browse through this ocean of posts, I find that @DecentLevi has indeed showcased vast experimentation with different setups. This provides him with hands–on experience, and deems him knowledgeable to a certain extent. Nevertheless, it should be evident that it is exactly the flurry of superlatives in his posts that get his findings overlooked, while the fact that he's been repeatedly pointed out as giving potentially hazardous advice by other knowledgeable members of this community ultimately ends up discrediting his findings. While this is a cost that DL may afford to carry, I should point out that it could potentially rub off to the rest of the thread, especially if one doesn't have the patience to skim through the various posts meticulously in order to form an opinion. Fortunately, the fact that other members' knowledgeable opposition counterbalances one's assertions, affords the thread with the premises of an educative comparison.
  
 Having said that, I'd second the use of disclaimers; only not of the flavor that DL is using (e.g. "_theoretically", "would this work?"_, or "_untested theory")._ From my point of view, the only two useful expressions would be "within FA standards", "[unofficially] sanctioned by FA",  and "caution; proceed at your own risk". On that note, I would also encourage a summary of findings organized by these disclaimers, perhaps through a joint access online document (e.g. Google spreadsheet). I'd consider it a great roadmap for anyone looking to get into the game and read through the rest of the thread more closely.
  
 Finally, I'd like to point out that while a forum affords open and free expression of opinion, the context and scope of this particular thread is clearly outlined by @pctazhp who started it in the first place. According to his statement,


> This is intended as a thread for those who are primarily interested in the 1-tube-per-socket (with or without single-tube adapters) approach to the Elise – for both current owners of the magnificent Feliks Audio Elise and those who are considering a purchase.
> Discussion of different tube combinations we have tried or are considering is encouraged, but discussion of external power and multi-tube adapters is discouraged.
> Discussion of compatible DACs, headphones or other related gear is encouraged.
> Photos of our setups are highly encouraged, as are examples of music we enjoy with our Elises.
> ...


 
  
 I believe that for the most part, the code of conduct these points present (albeit with the poor representation of point #3) have created you a great bunch of people for my novice ventures, while the rants, musings and the general quirkiness of this thread (and even @DecentLevi's insatiable enthusiasm) made it highly enjoyable! Personally, I'm happy to be part of this group. It has educated me greatly, and it affords me with context to my own findings. Please keep up the good work in the spirit of camaraderie!


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> For Bass Aficionados:
> .


 
 This sounds good on the above combo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Never listen to a new tube on a weekday. Dang it's almost midnight and there's work tomorrow.


----------



## angpsi

frederick rea said:


> ELISE deserves for our pleasure:
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10VtON9VjMAt3uyHC2-Oo2MjIa3orv9DKZfwiRQKmTAA/htmlview#gid=945476039


 

@Frederick Rea please stop it! My Meridian Explorer 2 has yet to reach me!!! (just joking man, thanks for the info! btw, which dac are you using for MQA?)


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> WELL SAID UT...*DO NOT EXCEED 7A total...(or 6.8 preferably)!!!*


 
 Yes I've mainly only used EL12 as power tubes. I've used them as drivers with EL11 as powers, which sounded very good. You can also use EL12 as drivers with dual  EL3N per channel powers (4 pack), giving 6.0mA. Have I done that yet? -OMG can't even remember, my head is in such a spin with these new tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Sad old man in Scottsdale suffering from information overload (((  With syanpse firing at maximum capacity (but well below manufacturer recommended maximum), the best I can decipher is that EL11/EL12 may not only be the flavor of the month, but a true classic (assuming one is not bothered by the Tower of Pisa effect). Any thoughts


 
 Well they are giving us something to think about and discuss while we await our _ultimate_ Euforia


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Well they are giving us something to think about and discuss while we await our _ultimate_ Euforia


 
 I'm counting the days and checking FA site daily to see if they have uploaded any official Euforia pictures.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Well they are giving us something to think about and discuss while we await our _ultimate_ Euforia


 

 Not to mention giving us more ways to spend our money so we can make absolutely sure beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are not missing anything


----------



## pctazhp

In honor of today's Italian theme:


----------



## connieflyer

Nice to see her again, one of my favorite actresses and I don't speak Italian, except for Mama Mia!  She was hot!


----------



## DavidA

This is the closest to Italian I can provide today, and its from Greece, my new Ypsilon R1 driver in mahogany wood cups:

  
 I change headphones like most of you change tubes, this is a really good sounding driver, been comparing it with HD-800, HD-700, HE-560, EL8, HD-650 and TH-X00.  Being very easy to drive the Ypsilon R1 is great even out of my crappy Galaxy S5
  
 But I did have Italian for dinner:

 But with a Mexican drink:

  
 And a Korean girl:


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA you make it very difficult for us mere mortals to continue on this combination may be over load for us. Looks like an "ultimate" menu!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @DavidA you make it very difficult for us mere mortals to continue on this combination may be over load for us. Looks like an "ultimate" menu!


 

 It is obvious that @DavidA should be reality TV star !!!!


----------



## connieflyer

At the very least his supporting actresses and equipment should be on tv!


----------



## DavidA

@pctazhp and @connieflyer
 I don't remember if I congratulated both of you for making it to the "SUPREMUS" level.  Don't you really feel smarter now


----------



## connieflyer

Thank you and I feel "smarter" now that I found an old clip of one of my favorites.


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> @pctazhp and @connieflyer
> I don't remember if I congratulated both of you for making it to the "SUPREMUS" level.  Don't you really feel smarter now


 

 Thanks much ))) I think I'm just feeling older. @connieflyer is the smart one. He can reach into the depths of his mind and pull up the likes of The Chantels and The Ronettes. http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/30#post_13163374
  
 We can only hope he plans to leave his brain to science for study of such unique brain power.


----------



## connieflyer

Absolutely, so long as they pay me for it.  Oh yeah, I will be dead, okay then I will leave it to @pctazhp and he can sell it.  Enjoy my friend!


----------



## DavidA

@connieflyer, my friend Seoung watched the vids with me and said don't ever buy her that type of lingerie, stick to Victoria Seceret, Lola Luna or Wicked Weasel, LOL


----------



## Frederick Rea

angpsi said:


> @Frederick Rea please stop it! My Meridian Explorer 2 has yet to reach me!!! (just joking man, thanks for the info! btw, which dac are you using for MQA?)


 
 Hi
 I have Lampizator Amber II DAC. As I have Tidal (Masters) (Polish as well as Elise) I only could hear 24bits 96K, but is enough for me. Important is 24bits instead of 16Bits Red Book. From MQA the important thing for me is what the origin of the master and be sure it will arrive without down/up bit changes
 Good listening


----------



## connieflyer

I agree, I will no longer buy her stuff from the other lingerie, only from her prescribed preferences!  My bad!


----------



## connieflyer

Wanted to share a great dvd,  From the tracking room, recording is excellent. It has been one of my favorites.


----------



## connieflyer

One last emotional thing and I will leave you for awhile at least.  This if from Bagpipes at a funeral.
  
*BAGPIPES** *

*I love this story.   
 Lay down what's bothering you, breath in the fresh air and LISTEN to this story.*
  
 Time is like a river. You cannot touch the water twice, because the  flow that has passed will never pass again. Enjoy every moment of life. As a bagpiper, I play many gigs. Recently I was asked by a funeral director to play at a graveside service for a  homeless man. He had no family or friends, so the service was to be at a pauper's cemetery in the Nova Scotia back country. As I was not familiar with the backwoods, I got lost and, being a typical man, I didn't stop for directions.








         I finally arrived an hour late and saw the funeral guy had evidently gone and the hearse was nowhere in sight. There were only  the diggers and crew left and they were eating lunch. 
 I felt badly and apologized to the men for being late.








         I went to the side of the grave and looked down and the vault lid was already in place.
 I didn't know what else to do, so I started to play.








         The workers put down their lunches and began to gather around. I played out my heart and soul for this man with no family and  friends. I played like I've never played before for this homeless man.  And as I played "Amazing Grace", the workers began to weep. They wept, I wept, we all wept together. When I finished, I packed up my bagpipes and started for my car. Though my head was  hung low, my heart was full.








         As I opened the door to my car, I heard one of the workers say, 
 "I never seen anything like that before, and I've been putting in septic tanks for twenty years."








         Apparently, I'm still lost....it's a man thing.








           When you have stopped laughing be sure to forward this on to others who would enjoy a good story.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Absolutely, so long as they pay me for it.  Oh yeah, I will be dead, okay then I will leave it to @pctazhp and he can sell it.  Enjoy my friend!


 
 Is there any chance you might consider leaving me Connor's brain instead? Certainly no offense intended, but it might be worth more


----------



## connieflyer

I just checked with him, he thought you were a wise man and agreed to it!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I just checked with him, he thought you were a wise man and agreed to it!


 

 Please thank him for his understanding.
  
 So I just posted you bagpipe story on Facebook. Will see if I have any friends left there by this evening


----------



## connieflyer

I will befriend you, although you will lose the rest of your friends, but then what are friends for any ways?


----------



## connieflyer

wow we both have 1556 posts back one


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> wow we both have 1556 posts back one


 

 Let's never forget this moment in time when we are equal ))))


----------



## LaCuffia

Just want to say that reading this thread is really enjoyable....you guys are humorous and are so generous with providing information relevant to the Elise (and poisonous spiders).   This is very much welcome and appreciated.


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 Back to reality, I mean tube adapter reality.
  
 I am a little worried about your advice to shave off the center pin a little to make the adapter fit better in the socket. While I have never managed to break off a center pin on an octal tube, the center pin broke off on three of my Chinese adapters. Looking at the broken off pin, you can see that it is hollow in the middle, and it occurs to me that shaving it will further weaken it.
  
 (I know that I am not alone in having trouble with broken off guide pins on the Chinese adapters.)


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> Back to reality, I mean tube adapter reality.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, mordy you may be right.
 I was only thinking of shaving off about a milimeter and didn't think about the possibility of that snapping/weakening the pin.


----------



## pctazhp

lacuffia said:


> Just want to say that reading this thread is really enjoyable....you guys are humorous and are so generous with providing information relevant to the Elise (and poisonous spiders).   This is very much welcome and appreciated.


 

 Thank you for your kind words. I often worry that some of us (or at least me) engage in too much good-natured bantering and video posting, because I know people come here to find help and information regarding their Elise. For reasons I don't understand, over time we Elise owners have discovered we have much more in common interest than just our love of Elise.
  
 When I started this thread I thought it would just be a place where a few of us who had gotten to know each other would hang out from time to time. I'm thrilled to see how it has developed. And as far as I'm concerned, the more members we hear from regularly, the better.  I'm sure the Euforia thread will maintain and build upon the same sense of community we have developed here.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> You mean this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/201486546362




No, not that.

Those that are marked 7N7 to 6SN7: http://stores.ebay.com/Xuling-Audio-Labs/_i.html?_nkw=7n7+%286sn7%2C6sn7gt%29&submit=Search




angpsi said:


> Also found this; what do you think? https://www.ebay.com/itm/201469510312




That should work, too.


----------



## Oskari

I've spent a long time with Valvo [Siemens] C3g/s tubes but now I'm finally back with Philips EL3Ns. The Valvos have become a bit too microphonic. I think I'll spend a long while with the EL3Ns.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I've spent a long time with Valvo [Siemens] C3g/s tubes but now I'm finally back with Philips EL3Ns. The Valvos have become a bit too microphonic. I think I'll spend a long while with the EL3Ns.


 
  
 Sure Oskari, you have my blessings. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   There's something about 'E's.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Sure Oskari, you have my blessings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 OMG. You just solved the String (Universal) Theory of Elise and Euforia Tube Rolling. Everything has to start with "E". Absolutely brilliant.
  
 Now I just have to find a DAC and headphones that start with "E" !!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Hey O, I've C3G on now with EL12N and I can see clearly now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 These Pentodes as strapped triodes never fail to amaze me. They sound lovely.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> OMG. You just solved the String (Universal) Theory of Elise and Euforia Tube Rolling. Everything has to start with "E". Absolutely brilliant.
> 
> Now I just have to find a DAC and headphones that start with "E" !!!!


 
  
 You're right .


----------



## pctazhp

Maybe more like:


----------



## connieflyer

String Theory works with quantum mechanics but not so much with Elise, because of all things you could ever say about Elise you could not say she sounded stringey! Elears?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> String Theory works with quantum mechanics but not so much with Elise, because of all things you could ever say about Elise you could not say she sounded stringey! Elears?


 

 I just realized Elears could be spelled "EL Ears". You may be on to something, Oh Great One !!!
  
 I'll put them on my buy list, just after I buy Euforia, Utopia, last 5 flavor-of-the-month tube pairs, order leaning pizza delivered, and pay my electric bill to keep this Death Star afloat


----------



## connieflyer

If you do all that then what were you by tomorrow?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> If you do all that then what were you by tomorrow?


----------



## whirlwind

pctazhp said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Sure Oskari, you have my blessings.
> ...


 
*ZMF EIKON.....*should be a great match for your amp


----------



## angpsi

davida said:


> This is the closest to Italian I can provide today, and its from Greece, my new Ypsilon R1 driver in mahogany wood cups:




@DavidA, would you by any chance know any names of the people behind the Ypsilon? Are they actually Greek?


----------



## DavidA

angpsi said:


> @DavidA, would you by any chance know any names of the people behind the Ypsilon? Are they actually Greek?


 
 The company is in Greece: Elleven Acoustica: http://www.ellevenacoustica.com/products  The owner is Chris but I don't know if he is Greek or not


----------



## angpsi

frederick rea said:


> Hi
> I have Lampizator Amber II DAC. As I have Tidal (Masters) (Polish as well as Elise) I only could hear 24bits 96K, but is enough for me. Important is 24bits instead of 16Bits Red Book. From MQA the important thing for me is what the origin of the master and be sure it will arrive without down/up bit changes
> Good listening


Thanks for the info, the Lampizator looks like an interesting project altogether! I wonder how my Meridian explorer will push MQA against either my old Benchmark dac1 and my lowly Hifime Sabre 9018 USB DAC. 
I'd be interested to hear a description about how your dac synergizes with the Elise- e.g. what's your favorite gear/tube setup and what's its sonic signature according to your experience? I'm just wondering whether (dac) tubes-on-(amp) tubes a bit on the mellow side, e.g. compared to a solid state dac. At the same time, I also have some reservations whether SS dacs actually sunergise well with tube amps. Fwiw my typically agnostic (borderline indifferent) wife spontaneously reacted positively once my very revealing ATC system returned to full SS mode (I was using the Elise as a pre-amp during Christmas).

Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Lots of ingredients to play around with in this twisted masochistic and compulsive hobby of ours!


----------



## angpsi

davida said:


> The company is in Greece: Elleven Acoustica: http://www.ellevenacoustica.com/products  The owner is Chris but I don't know if he is Greek or not


 About 10-12years ago I had a student with aspirations for product design who did his thesis project with me; and his thesis was about a fictive bespoke car company named... "Elleven"! We had long discussions about that name back then, so I was extremely intrigued to come across it once again after such long time. Still, his name was Andreas so I don't know whether he's actually involved in this.


----------



## mordy

In the February issue of Stereophile Magazine there is an article about the Polish Audio and Video Show which the organizers claim is the the second largest in Europe after the Munich show.
 The reviewer was impressed by the enthusiasm and interest of the visitors and exhibitors. Alas, no mention of Feliks Audio.
  
 Anyhow, if you like cars and tube amps, you may like this amp that has the power tubes arranged like the pistons in a V8 engine - the Egg Shell Encore Seven:
  




 http://encore7.com/2015/11/wywiad-z-nami-w-magazynie-stereolife-pl/
  
 And if you run out of fuel for the V8 amp, you can always use this:





 
  
 Oops - I forgot the speakers:


----------



## DavidA

@mordy, they should have made the tubes horizontal, it would be a flat 4 like the old VW engine or the current Subaru flat 4.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> Yes I've mainly only used EL12 as power tubes. I've used them as drivers with EL11 as powers, which sounded very good. You can also use EL12 as drivers with dual  EL3N per channel powers (4 pack), giving 6.0mA. Have I done that yet? -OMG can't even remember, my head is in such a spin with these new tubes.


 
 Well I've just done a brief, yet careful comparison of the RFT EL12N vs. Telefunken EL11, both with quad EL3N, both using the same test songs...
 With the EL12's as drivers I found a proper & dyamic sound but nothing special, then with the EL11 as drivers I experienced much greater sense of 'presence' / air / spaciousness, smoothness with crisp, sparkling details and a nearly 3D soundstage... that is to say that it went from "great", to "spectacular". For me, it's clear the EL12's do much better as powers and the EL11's will stay right where they should be in the driver seat. Also it's amazing, yet another example of how ST (bottle shaped) tubes seem to give better sound.
  
 PS- absolutely nothing against EL12's however - They do synergise quite well with EL11's and can really breathe some life into those 6SN7's as well, as I noticed straight away


----------



## mordy

DavidA,
  
 What do you prefer? A boxer 4 or a V8?
  





 Boss 429 (engine only)
  
 Forgot you post pictures of food items- here is one:


----------



## DavidA

@mordy,so funny you mention Boss 429 engine only, or did you get that from my signature?  One of the best looking engines aside from 426 Hemi, L-88 and original LT-5 in the 1991 ZR-1


----------



## UntilThen

Hi folks, Mrs X says that the adapters were initially made and tested with az12 but the fit was tight and they broke 2 ceramic base. So they left some space and hey presto the EL11 and 12 will slot in but it will not be a snap on fit.

I'm afraid that is the best it can be unless you're as skillful as H1 in replacing the base yourself.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Hi folks, Mrs X says that the adapters were initially made and tested with az12 but the fit was tight and they broke 2 ceramic base. So they left some space and hey presto the EL11 and 12 will slot in but it will not be a snap on fit.
> 
> I'm afraid that is the best it can be unless you're as skillful as H1 in replacing the base yourself.


 
 Odd that mine, which must have been among the very original ones, fit absolutely fine, not overly tight at all. It maybe the AZ12 is not an identical fit to the EL11/12.


----------



## UntilThen

Howie which part of the guide pin did you suggest shaving?


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Howie which part of the guide pin did you suggest shaving?


 
 I just recalled I received two spares a few days ago from MrsX and stuck them in a cupboard. 
 So I've taken them out and, as expected, they don't fit flush, unlike my earlier ones which are flush -they look like your tower of Pisa.
  
 I have just sanded off about a milimeter from the bottom of the plastic guide pin, and it now fits flush! YIPPEE!
  
 I had already emailed MrsX suggesting this may be the issue.
  
 Bear in mind mordy's apposite caution though concerning the fragility of guide pins.#5379.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Howie which part of the guide pin did you suggest shaving?


 
  
 Here's a photo showing, I hope, that the length of the guide pin of the right tube is slightly reduced by sanding the tip a little- not very expertly done as it's not flat, but it fits perfectly flush into the socket, so I've emailed MrsX with my findings.
  
 If we are careful I don't suppose it matters too much if they sit asymetrically as long as they sound good and I have other tubes that can wobble in their sockets and are fine, actually one or two of my EL3N's are more loose in their sockets -but it's far from ideal.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Frederick Rea

angpsi said:


> Thanks for the info, the Lampizator looks like an interesting project altogether! I wonder how my Meridian explorer will push MQA against either my old Benchmark dac1 and my lowly Hifime *Sabre 9018* USB DAC.
> I'd be interested to hear a description about how your dac synergizes with the Elise- e.g. what's your favorite gear/tube setup and what's its sonic signature according to your experience? I'm just wondering whether (dac) tubes-on-(amp) tubes a bit on the mellow side, e.g. compared to a solid state dac. At the same time, I also have some reservations whether SS dacs actually sunergise well with tube amps. Fwiw my typically agnostic (borderline indifferent) wife spontaneously reacted positively once my very revealing ATC system returned to full SS mode (I was using the Elise as a pre-amp during Christmas).
> 
> Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Lots of ingredients to play around with in this twisted masochistic and compulsive hobby of ours!


 
 As I do not really like the Saber converters because I find them a bit rough on the HF, the Lampizator Amber II has a new and exclusive chip that makes it more accessible to my ears. Considering that no one has the so-called perfect ears, everything depends on each one. However and comparing it with my EAD series III converter, I find it more clear, spacious with better soundstage and with more controlled HF. It has, as well a Tube sound instead of ss. If we can call tube sound a coloured one, so it is and is what I like


----------



## angpsi

So my Meridian Explorer 2 arrived. I don't know if it benefits from burn–in but MQA is quite revealing; e.g. contemporary pop music sounds its compressed pedigree (for instance, Bruno Mars, "Doo-Wops & Hooligans", 2010), and audiophile recordings reveal the mastering decisions made by the engineers (e.g. 2L Audiophile Reference Recordings, "The Nordic Sound", 2009). So far, some music sounds wonderful and some music is borderline insufferable! But that's not Meridian's fault...
  
 #edit: perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions very early, but the sound does seem to open up gradually.#
 #edit 2: Madonna's "Like a virgin" (1984) or a–ha's "Hunting High and Low" (2015 Remastered version [1985]) sound really great compared to Bruno Mars. Gotta say something about a bygone era...#
  
 Fun find: browsing through TIDAL's inventory of Masters I bumped into Wilson Picket's "The Sound of Wilson Picket" (1967). Sh#t that's a ridiculous soundstage—it tilts so heavily to the left I thought my Senns were broken or that a tube channel was offline! Try it out if you can find it, I'm sure it's gonna be quite amusing to the rest of the group too.
  
 Also, I'm now envious of @Frederick Rea's Lampizator. Lots of reading on their website, which ultimately turns into [your typical audiophile's OCD laden] lust. Oh well...


----------



## angpsi

frederick rea said:


> As I do not really like the Saber converters because I find them a bit rough on the HF, the Lampizator Amber II has a new and exclusive chip that makes it more accessible to my ears. Considering that no one has the so-called perfect ears, everything depends on each one. However and comparing it with my EAD series III converter, I find it more clear, spacious with better soundstage and with more controlled HF. It has, as well a Tube sound instead of ss. If we can call tube sound a coloured one, so it is and is what I like


 

 So fun we were posting at the same time! Thanks for the reply, it's quite informative. As I wrote in my previous post, the Lampizator looks like a very interesting project which I hope to audition personally one day. Indeed, I've also started enjoying sessions with a bit more euphonic sound; I kinda like that it doesn't command my full attention and actually lets me think on other things too (e.g. listen and work at the same time).


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> So my Meridian Explorer 2 arrived. I don't know if it benefits from burn–in but MQA is quite revealing; e.g. contemporary pop music sounds its compressed pedigree (for instance, Bruno Mars, "Doo-Wops & Hooligans", 2010), and audiophile recordings reveal the mastering decisions made by the engineers (e.g. 2L Audiophile Reference Recordings, "The Nordic Sound", 2009). So far, some music sounds wonderful and some music is borderline insufferable! But that's not Meridian's fault...
> 
> #edit: perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions very early, but the sound does seem to open up gradually.#
> #edit 2: Madonna's "Like a virgin" (1984) or a–ha's "Hunting High and Low" (2015 Remastered version [1985]) sound really great compared to Bruno Mars. *Gotta say something about a bygone era...#*
> ...


 
 After Elvis Presley there were no more musical eras. Just a mish-mash of noise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I guess with my non-MQA DAC the files are only "unfolding" half way (whatever that means). I'm not sure these old ears can really detect differences in bit rates, or whatever the differences are in PCM, DSD, etc (which is also all just Greek to me). But must admit I'm loving the Chicago Masters on Tidal HD


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I just recalled I received two spares a few days ago from MrsX and stuck them in a cupboard.
> So I've taken them out and, as expected, they don't fit flush, unlike my earlier ones which are flush -they look like your tower of Pisa.
> 
> I have just sanded off about a milimeter from the bottom of the plastic guide pin, and it now fits flush! YIPPEE!
> ...


 
 Thanks Howie. 
  
 Mrs X should halt sale of those adapters until it's corrected. It's a half baked solution and her response to me is not at all satisfactory.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Thanks Howie.
> 
> Mrs X should halt sale of those adapters until it's corrected. It's a half baked solution and her response to me is not at all satisfactory.


 
  
 I got a reply from MrsX and she is going to redo them with more depth for the guide -pin. It's a pity they changed them from the original design as I have no problems with my first batch.
  
 Hopefully it will be sorted- it's not exactly rocket science.
  
 Incidently, I liked your photo from earlier today- no tower of Pisa was particularly obvious. You had them perched just perfectly.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> After Elvis Presley there were no more musical eras. Just a mish-mash of noise


 
  
 What would you call this, then? :cowboy:


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> I got a reply from MrsX and she is going to redo them with more depth for the guide -pin. It's a pity they changed them from the original design as I have no problems with my first batch.
> 
> Hopefully it will be sorted- it's not exactly rocket science.
> 
> Incidently, I liked your photo from earlier today- no tower of Pisa was particularly obvious. You had them perched just perfectly.


 

 Damn! I got mine already in the mail...


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I got a reply from MrsX and she is going to redo them with more depth for the guide -pin. It's a pity they changed them from the original design as I have no problems with my first batch.
> 
> Hopefully it will be sorted- it's not exactly rocket science.
> 
> Incidently, I liked your photo from earlier today- no tower of Pisa was particularly obvious. You had them perched just perfectly.


 
 Good and I'll write to her saying I expect my 4 adapters to be replaced at her cost. It's not just leaning effect but the contacts aren't good as a result. One of my EL11 signal was cutting on and off until I wiggle it.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Damn! I got mine already in the mail...


 

 My second pair is also in the mail. Impeccable timing


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> What would you call this, then? :cowboy:


 
 Pure Heaven. Johnny Cash is THE MAN !!!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> My second pair is also in the mail. Impeccable timing


 
 Send it back for a replacement and by the time you get it, Euforia should be ready.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Send it back for a replacement and by the time you get it, Euforia should be ready.


 

 Yeah. And I love packaging things, driving to the post office, and standing in line all day long. Bah humbug ((((( Or as a more articulate friend of mine likes to say "gerrrrrrrrrrrrr"


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Damn! I got mine already in the mail...


 
 MrsX has given excellent service to us over the years and I'm hopeful the problem will be speedily solved.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> MrsX has given excellent service to us over the years and I'm hopeful the problem will be speedily solved.


 

 Says the man who...


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> MrsX has given excellent service to us over the years and I'm hopeful the problem will be speedily solved.


 
 That I do know after all it was I who liaise with her on the build for EL3N and C3G adapters but I expect all who have purchased the EL11 adapters with the known problem to be given replacements at their cost.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Says the man who...


 
  
 That's the way to do it!


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> That's the way to do it!


 
 Those well–manicured well–polished fingernails though!!


----------



## HOWIE13

In the interest of science I have purchased at GREAT expense for the Forum an EL12 tube *without *a guide pin.
  
 I inserted it into a recent adapter Mrs X sent me, which doesn't properly fit my tubes which do have guide pins, and the tube without the guide pin fits perfectly.
  
 It sounds perfect too and doesn't wiggle around. Insertion is easy because having two discrete groups of 3 and 5 pins it's obvious how the tube is inserted.
  
 It grips well, so well I can even hold it upside down and it stays in. *(I don't recommend you ever do this*, it's just part of the scientific experiment, you understand) 
  
 Here's the picture proof:
  
  
  
 Initial picture, tube with no guide pin:
  

  
  
 Now inserted, with views showing flush fit all round:
  
  

  
  

  
  


  
  
 Now upside down (holding breath)- *(please don't repeat)*:
  
  

  
  
 So conclusions are:
  
 1.  The guide pin hole needs to be deeper to allow the guide pin to be fully inserted so the tube is flush with the top surface of the adapter.
  
 2.  This EL12 tube will grip and work without a guide pin.


----------



## pctazhp

Just got first set of EL11 adapters. It is Straight Tower of Scottsdale )))  SQ report to follow. Can say it does sound different that EL3N.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Just got first set of EL11 adapters. It is Straight Tower of Scottsdale )))  SQ report to follow. Can say it does sound different that EL3N.


 
  
 Great news-looking forward to learning how you find them. I hope the tower of Pisa isn't leaning too far over.
  
 EDIT: Oh I just understood what you meant by 'Straight Tower of Scottsdale'. You must have got an early adapter version.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Great news-looking forward to learning how you find them. I hope the tower of Pisa isn't leaning too far over.
> 
> EDIT: Oh I just understood what you meant by Straight Tower of Scottsdale. You must have got an early version.


 

 Right, no lean Howie. So far so good )))


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Right, no lean Howie. So far so good )))


 
  
  


pctazhp said:


> Right, no lean Howie. So far so good )))


 
  
 Only downside is tourists don't pay as much to see a straight tower.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Only downside is tourists don't pay as much to see a straight tower.


 

 Ha))) Very true. But don't need no more stickin' tourists here in Scottsdale 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  But I'm sure if a fraction of them had any idea of how good Elise sounds I could make a fortune holding demonstration events


----------



## angpsi

While we're on the subject of adapters, any reason why one should pay €20 plus shipping a piece for this 7n7 to 6sn7 one over Ms Xuling's version?
  

  
 Or, for that matter, €29 a piece for the JAC–Music one?


----------



## pctazhp

@angpsi. With exception of the current glitch involving the EL11/12 adapters (which I assume will be rectified to everyone's satisfaction) I think all of us have been very pleased with Mrs. X's adapters. I would, without hesitation, bet @connieflyer's life that there is no sonic difference among the 3 different adapters.
  
 The only reason I can think why you might want to buy the top one is it is black and will blend better with Elise's look, if you don't like the more common marshmallow look.


----------



## connieflyer

Well at least now I know my life isn't worth much. But as far as marshmallows are concerned, the only thing they're good for is putting them on a stick and sticking them in a fire. I would vote for the one that blends in with the rest of the amp.


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> Well at least now I know my life isn't worth much. But as far as marshmallows are concerned, the only thing they're good for is putting them on a stick and sticking them in a fire. I would vote for the one that blends in with the rest of the amp.


 

 Yeah, @connieflyer but these are $40/pair plus shipping (probably another $15–20), whereas Ms X charges $19,80/pair plus $6,50 shipping! The idea is that the 7n7 + adapters cost_ less_ than the actual 6sn7 Sylvanias they're meant to stand for.
  
 Have to agree though, it does look prettier! Perhaps @UntilThen or @pctazhp can negotiate a black version with our Chinese source?


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I would, without hesitation, bet @connieflyer's life that (...)


 
 I don't know man; this bomber plane of his does look menacing!
  
 *Ok, edit: can _look_ menacing and overhear everything you say. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_EC-121_Warning_Star)


----------



## connieflyer

We were Spooks, no bombs. 14-16 hour flights, no Russian bombers got past us.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Yeah, @connieflyer but these are $40/pair plus shipping (probably another $15–20), whereas Ms X charges $19,80/pair plus $6,50 shipping! The idea is that the 7n7 + adapters cost_ less_ than the actual 6sn7 Sylvanias they're meant to stand for.
> 
> Have to agree though, it does look prettier! *Perhaps @UntilThen or @pctazhp can negotiate a black version with our Chinese source? *


 
 I'll have to leave that to @UntilThen. He's our Business Manager.


----------



## angpsi

OK, I might be gravitating towards @DecentLevi levels of restlessness but I just won this auction for $60. It was close to ending with no bids so which I bid on an impulse, albeit I had in fact researched the EL12spez and knew they were going for around $120/pair or more. Seller says 100% – NOS at 38 and 37 mA, but other ads state either 42-45mA=100% or 72mA=100%.
  
 What do you guys think? Should I pay the man, or did I make a rookie mistake? @hypnos1, what do you say?
  
 *Updt: seller says: "hello good start at 18ma and 40ma = 100% on my tester . regards eilt"


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> I don't know man; this bomber plane of his does look menacing!
> 
> *Ok, edit: can _look_ menacing and overhear everything you say. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_EC-121_Warning_Star)


 

 I take little comfort in his claim he doesn't carry bombs. The scary thing is he buzzes my home daily. My neighbors are not happy


----------



## connieflyer

The buzzing is not why they are not happy, they were the ones that hired me


----------



## DecentLevi

ANGPSI unfortunately those tubes require an adapter which has an external wire to connect to that top part which isn't available yet so I'm not sure if there is a workaround or not


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 The measurements must always be related to the specific tester being used. An honest seller should say that the tube measured good at 28, where 36 is 100%, as an example. Different testers will come up with different numbers, but they must be compared to the minimum and maximum values for that specific tube on that specific tester.
  
 Regarding the adapters, some people have used paint or shrink wrap to get the color they want.
  
 It is true that some adapters are better made with teflon and gold plated pins etc etc, but I would go with the less expensive ones, Mrs Xu Ling's (or is it Ling Xu?) adapters have in general been very good. If something breaks or does not function properly my experience has been that she will replace them free of charge and does not require you to mail them back (a picture should be enough).


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Send it back for a replacement and by the time you get it, Euforia should be ready.


 
  
 Hi UT...by that time I'm hoping with all my heart that when F-A hear my adapted RFT EL11s (in both amps) they will realise that they've just GOT to make their own 'approved' adapters lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(have just checked the tracking info and the package has indeed already arrived! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...so _*fingers, toes etc. crossed!*_).
  
 Now then, my good friend, although you yourself have echoed my own mantra...NO MORE TUBES!!!...I really did think you would crumble before I did - I've just bagged 2 nice RFT EL12s (ST bottles!!)...one NOS for $30, the other about 100% for a good bit more (alas!). The only reason being I'm itching to see just how they compare with my all time favourite GEC/Osram A1834s in my own particular system LOL!...should be *very* interesting...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...@HOWIE13 has a lot to answer for!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


angpsi said:


> OK, I might be gravitating towards @DecentLevi levels of restlessness but I just won this auction for $60. It was close to ending with no bids so which I bid on an impulse, albeit I had in fact researched the EL12spez and knew they were going for around $120/pair or more. Seller says 100% – NOS at 38 and 37 mA, but other ads state either 42-45mA=100% or 72mA=100%.
> 
> What do you guys think? Should I pay the man, or did I make a rookie mistake? @hypnos1, what do you say?
> 
> *Updt: seller says: "hello good start at 18ma and 40ma = 100% on my tester . regards eilt"


 
  
 Yo, poor angpsi...rookie mistake alas - esily done! Those 'caps' up top are for the anode connection, and so as DL says, they require a wire from the adapter to make this connection to the amp..._*sorry!*_





...But take heart, most of us have made worse mistakes than that lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> The measurements must always be related to the specific tester being used. An honest seller should say that the tube measured good at 28, where 36 is 100%, as an example.* Different testers will come up with different numbers*, but they must be compared to the minimum and maximum values for that specific tube on that specific tester.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy...that's for sure lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but @angpsi has indeed stated something that has in fact been baffling me for a while - viz. the straight glass EL12*N* is usually stated as 100% emission being the same as the EL11, ie.about 36mA...but the ST-shaped EL12 at 70+mA lol!!...?????....and even more confusing is that Radiomuseum describes them *both *as providing double the output power of the EL11...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(perhaps it comes down to the voltages applied to these tubes within different circuits?). Our tubes are indeed mystifying creatures LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

Adapter discussion took up 2 pages !!! @#%^&*(


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Just got first set of EL11 adapters. It is Straight Tower of Scottsdale )))  SQ report to follow. Can say it does sound different that EL3N.


 
 Alright looking forward to your impressions and also long term test as to whether the Straight Tower will bend over.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...by that time I'm hoping with all my heart that when F-A hear my adapted RFT EL11s (in both amps) they will realise that they've just GOT to make their own 'approved' adapters lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 These tubes have a great tone and deserve FA own manufactured adapters. I hope they might be able to source more EL11 and EL12.
  
 So you bag the two EL12s I've been eyeing.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Alright looking forward to your impressions and also long term test as to whether the Straight Tower will bend over.


 

 Will do. So far no:


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> These tubes have a great tone and deserve FA own manufactured adapters. I hope they might be able to source more EL11 and EL12.
> 
> So you bag the two EL12s I've been eyeing.


 
  
 Sorry UT...but "He who hesitates is lost" lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(probably wouldn't have snaffled 'em if I knew you were interested..._perhaps!!_





...sure did seem too good to miss...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 And if F-A do indeed go ahead with their own adapters, I even suggested they carry on the pure silver theme of the Euforia...shouldn't have to cost _too_ much more to use .8mm wire for the signal line in an adapter...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(I myself use 1mm)...


----------



## vl4dimir

Received my Elise today, didn't have much time to test it but... holy sh*** I'm loving it


----------



## hypnos1

vl4dimir said:


> Received my Elise today, didn't have much time to test it but... holy sh*** I'm loving it


 
  
 GREAT news vl4...amazing how many times Elise manages to EL(!)icit plenty of expletives lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  And real glad you're loving it already..._*just you wait!!!*_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....CHEERS!...


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Received my Elise today, didn't have much time to test it but... holy sh*** I'm loving it


 
 Good and remember Elise is the key to your passing the exam with flying colours.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry UT...but "He who hesitates is lost" lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Wise saying. I'm usually fingers trigger quick with buying tubes but am slipping away. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Do you know if the EL12/325 350 and 375 versions are suitable for us? 
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el12.html


----------



## UntilThen

Spectacular. Sylvania 6sn7wgt and EL12N has a great tone. It even outdo the same driver pairing with Bendix 6080wb which I consider a premier power tube for Elise.
  
 EL12N has this vastness of sound with no loss of fidelity in micro details and imaging. Nice clarity.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright folks I'll give praise where praise is due.
  
 Mrs X has replied to me and she's most helpful and gracious. I'll give her full marks for that, as most of you have attested. 
  
 I'll quote her email as she describe it better than I do.
  
Hi,friend.i know you are my old customer.if el11 tube still can't full insert,please break adapter,i will resend again.because next weekend,Chinese new year holidays coming soon.so i must resend adapters before holidays.
Please tell other buyer,if can't full insert tube please direct email give me,will resend.
Best regards!
  
There you go.
  
Happy Chinese New Year Mrs Xu Ling. You're much loved here in our community.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Wise saying. I'm usually fingers trigger quick with buying tubes but am slipping away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Another thing that has been baffling me about the ST EL12...these different versions lol! More investigation called for, methinks UT...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...ie. as to the flexibilty/applicability of the different max voltage specs...
  


untilthen said:


> Spectacular. Sylvania 6sn7wgt and EL12N has a great tone.* It even outdo the same driver pairing with Bendix 6080wb which I consider a premier power tube for Elise.*
> 
> EL12N has this vastness of sound with no loss of fidelity in micro details and imaging. Nice clarity.


 
  
 And those are just the "worst performing" versions lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...now you've _*really*_ got me intrigued as to how the 'ST's will fare LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...
  
 ps. Thanks for the message from MrsX...she has indeed helped folks be able to experience some wonderful 'alternative' tubes to stock, and take Elise to new heights...CHEERS! to her too....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> And those are just the "worst performing" versions lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You got me excited now too. I just need the coke. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just purchased one RFT EL12 and one Telefunken EL12 both NOS. Now I'm AUD$186 poorer. Maybe mixing RFT with Telefunken will be more magic.


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1 and @UntilThen. My mother warned me about hanging out with people like you two. She also taught me that the roosters would eventually come home to roost and that money doesn't grow on trees.
  
 So I won't be ordering these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-MATCHED-GERMANY-Valve-Tube-Lampe-TSF-Rohre-Tube-/391667149146?hash=item5b312e695a:g:aB0AAOSwoudW5W1A
  
 But then again, there are always these:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-power-tubes-SIEMENS-Klangfilm-EL-12-/282236293213?hash=item41b698105d:g:vosAAOSwYIxX68E0 Hmmmmm???
  
 I think I should lodge a formal protest against both of you


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1 and @UntilThen. My mother warned me about hanging out with people like you two. She also taught me that the roosters would eventually come home to roost and that money doesn't grow on trees.
> 
> So I won't be ordering these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-MATCHED-GERMANY-Valve-Tube-Lampe-TSF-Rohre-Tube-/391667149146?hash=item5b312e695a:g:aB0AAOSwoudW5W1A
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice tubes !!!  but my rooster told me no more tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Nice tubes !!!  but my rooster told me no more tubes.


 

 Yeah. My mother has been speaking to me from the forest where her ashes are scattered and telling me the same thing. I think @connieflyer should hire Connor out for parties and buy them.
  
 BTW, I'm loving EL11/GEC6AS7. Don't want to say more quite yet.
  
 Edit:  Mighty handsome rooster!!!


----------



## connieflyer

Connor is retired, he thought I was having so much fun he decided to retire as well, he wants me to hire a watch dog service, so he will feel safe


----------



## pctazhp

Is that you or him???


----------



## connieflyer

Yes!


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  you hear me. Grab a pair of EL12N. I'm listening to Dire Straits now and I'm really in dire straits.  The musical notes just grab you and wouldn't let go.


----------



## connieflyer

Ice is starting to build up on the lakes Lake Michigan outside of Frankfort.  Is this cold enough for you @UntilThen ?
  
  
 (image missing)


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> @connieflyer  you hear me. Grab a pair of EL12N. I'm listening to Dire Straits now and I'm really in dire straits.  The musical notes just grab you and wouldn't let go.





 What are you using for drivers?


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> What are you using for drivers?


 
 Sylvania 6SN7wgt.  Any of your favourite 6SN7 will do. I'm listening to 'Bros in Arms' now and I'm in the battlefield.


----------



## pctazhp

I too want to be in the battlefield 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   Looking:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Tubes-NOS-RFT-EL12N-EL12-factory-NEW-7015-/380683432338?hash=item58a2803192ml0oXfk7x1Q4AWAHV6IyE8g
  
 @UntilThen. Have I ever told you that you are evil?  Yes. I'm pretty sure I have.
  
 Anyway, on this thread Dire Straits is so last year. In Scottsdale, we're rocking tonight:


----------



## connieflyer

Funny I was looking at those exact same tubes


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I too want to be in the battlefield
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Those are the EL12N that I have.
  
 So far Sylvania 6sn7wgt with EL12N  and  Telefunken EL11 with 5998 are very captivating. Love it.
  
 Until my 2nd pair of adapters arrive, I won't be able to listen to EL11 with EL12N but I expect good tones from it.
  
 I'm looking forward to straight towers. These EL tubes sounds good and they need straight towers.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Funny I was looking at those exact same tubes


 

 You go first. Tonight I'm such a pile of hapless tube overload mush, I'm going to take a cold shower, read my favorite Mother Goose nursery rhyme and go to bed.


----------



## connieflyer

I think I'll pass on those tubes for now. I just sold my Elise so I won't have anything to put the tubes in until I get the new amp but you just go right ahead and get them


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I think I'll pass on those tubes for now. I just sold my Elise so I won't have anything to put the tubes in until I get the new amp but you just go right ahead and get them


 
 You what??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Welcome to Houston Paradise. Euforia will be with you shortly.


----------



## connieflyer

Hope it doesn't take too long butt I'm sure from what everything I've read and heard it should be a great experience


----------



## UntilThen

These guys agree with me that EL12N sounds natural. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Man this tube sounds really good with my T1. Beautiful just doesn't describe it. I've to go into some flowery language. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://m.review33.com/forum_msg.php?db=1&topic=65050508235259&start=580&sort=1


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Do you know if the EL12/325 350 and 375 versions are suitable for us?
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el12.html







hypnos1 said:


> Another thing that has been baffling me about the ST EL12...these different versions lol! More investigation called for, methinks UT...:wink_face: ...ie. as to the flexibilty/applicability of the different max voltage specs...







> A suffix /xxx indicates the max. voltage this tube is especially selected for, otherwise it's 250 V.




They'll be just fine.


----------



## angpsi

Ok, got it; most certainly a rookie mistake due to eagerness. But would it be electrically possible to make such an adapter (something similar to what's pictured above)? What is the purpose of the anode cap anyway? Grounding? Any benefit over the regular type?

Of course it would be much less of a pain if the seller just absolved me of my sin! Damn that "spezial" title; really got me worked out!


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> EL12spez




I'm sure UT can broker a deal with MrsX for you.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Ok, got it; most certainly a rookie mistake due to eagerness. But would it be electrically possible to make such an adapter (something similar to what's pictured above)? What is the purpose of the anode cap anyway? Grounding? Any benefit over the regular type?




Yes, it would.

It is useful to have the high voltage connection of the plate (anode) away from the (other) pins. It's an isolation thing.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I'm sure UT can broker a deal with MrsX for you.


 
@angpsi  I've just send Mrs X an email on making an adapter for EL12 spez tube. Let's see what she says.
  
  
 In this forum, EL12 spez is suppose to be good if it's any consolation.
 http://m.review33.com/forum_msg.php?db=1&topic=65050508235259&start=580&sort=1
  
 Quote:-
Yes, I also prefer the EL12N to the F2a11 in the V502 but the best I tried is the EL12 Special.


----------



## UntilThen

Apparently there's already a EL12spez to KT66 adapter.


----------



## angpsi

oskari said:


> Yes, it would.
> 
> It is useful to have the high voltage connection of the plate (anode) away from the (other) pins. It's an isolation thing.



Ok then! So, "in the interest of science" as you guys most often say, I honored my commitment to the seller and paid for the tubes. Things come to worst, I can always relist them and hope to cut my losses.




untilthen said:


> @angpsi
> I've just send Mrs X an email on making an adapter for EL12 spez tube. Let's see what she says.
> 
> In this forum, EL12 spez is suppose to be good if it's any consolation.
> ...






untilthen said:


> Apparently there's already a EL12spez to KT66 adapter.




Wow UT, thanks! I always knew you guys were a most thoughtful and helping crowd! Let's hope for the best!
Lots of marshmallow though! The black caps / orange wire sure look stylish! Here's the link to the guy who makes them: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?sid=suzier_audio&_pgn=1&isRefine=true


----------



## UntilThen

You're welcome. White ain't too bad. 
  
 My EL12s are enroute from Germany and Bulgaria.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok @angpsi  this is what Mrs Xu Ling say....
  
yes,make EL12 spez to 6SN7 adapter no problem.but you know EL12 spez tube very expensive.
Thanks!


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1 and @UntilThen. My mother warned me about hanging out with people like you two. She also taught me that the roosters would eventually come home to roost and that money doesn't grow on trees.
> 
> So I won't be ordering these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-MATCHED-GERMANY-Valve-Tube-Lampe-TSF-Rohre-Tube-/391667149146?hash=item5b312e695a:g:aB0AAOSwoudW5W1A
> 
> ...


 
  
 I certainly would if I were you lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...friendship notwithstanding!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(but then, anyone who hangs out here is *doomed* anyway LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


untilthen said:


> You got me excited now too. I just need the coke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 OK, OK UT...you win - just 'cos I pipped you to the post with those RFTs!...(think I'll need to be joining pct in the formal protest arena lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). But those sure do look LOVELY tubes!...WELL DONE!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


connieflyer said:


> I think I'll pass on those tubes for now. I just sold my Elise so I won't have anything to put the tubes in until I get the new amp but you just go right ahead and get them


 
  
 Hmmmm cf...Santa Claus just _might _be able to arrange something for you (complete with silver wire lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...) - boy, do I know what it's like to be without Elise while waiting for Euforia!!...but the wait will be WELL worth it, mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


oskari said:


> They'll be just fine.


 
  
 Thanks for the reassurance O....had a suspicion it would simply relate to those circuit designs that wanted _specific_ voltage values, as opposed to the general 250V...I rest a bit easier now...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...
  


angpsi said:


> Ok then! So, "in the interest of science" as you guys most often say, I honored my commitment to the seller and paid for the tubes. Things come to worst, I can always relist them and hope to cut my losses.
> 
> Wow UT, thanks! I always knew you guys were a most thoughtful and helping crowd! Let's hope for the best!
> Lots of marshmallow though! The black caps / orange wire sure look stylish! Here's the link to the guy who makes them: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?sid=suzier_audio&_pgn=1&isRefine=true


 
  
 NO SWEAT angpsi....for what you paid you could only _eventually_ make a PROFIT lol!!


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Ok @angpsi
> this is what Mrs Xu Ling say....
> 
> [COLOR=231F20]yes,make EL12 spez to 6SN7 adapter no problem.but you know EL12 spez tube very expensive.[/COLOR][COLOR=231F20]
> ...



Thanks UT, I'll be sure to contact her with reference to this community! Much obliged!


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> NO SWEAT angpsi....for what you paid you could only _eventually_ make a PROFIT lol!!



OR, now that the prospect of an adapter is on the table, other people might end up loosing their money to them!


----------



## UntilThen

Can we use this mickey mouse?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> OR, now that the prospect of an adapter is on the table, other people might end up loosing their money to them!


 
 Alright you just message her if you want her to make the adapter. Just mention UntilThen. China knows UT now.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Can we use this mickey mouse?


 
  
 They look familiar-remember this photo I posted on New Year's Eve of an old Telefunken radio from 1942 with the EL11 tube and we wondered what those mini-tubes might be?


----------



## UntilThen

Yes Howie  They sure look cute.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I think I'll pass on those tubes for now. I just sold my Elise so I won't have anything to put the tubes in until I get the new amp but you just go right ahead and get them


 

 I'm also going to pass for now while I see how things on the Coke bottle front shake out. I really don't need more tubes to put into my Elise. More likely, I need more Elise's to put into my tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

I saw this link on Facebook. A must see if you love music from the 50's: https://www.facebook.com/EnchantingMinds/videos/vb.262700157223626/587870321373273/?type=2&theater


----------



## pctazhp

The EL11/GEC6AS7G combo I’ve been listening to since yesterday morning is my favorite so far, by a significant margin. The EL11 doesn’t seem to me to have much in common with the EL3N.
  
 I think maybe @hypnos1 said the EL11 has a narrower soundstage. I feel I can detect that, but it’s almost as if the EL11 redefines soundstage for me. I have a sensation that  in the past I was looking into the soundstage from the outside, but with EL11 I’m part of the recording venue.
  
 Everything is natural and firmly anchored in space. It’s a full natural sound, where detail refers to the reality of the experience rather than emphasis at any particular point in the FR.
  
 If I were willing to risk engaging in hyperbole, I would say it transfers my Elise into an entirely different amp. But I won’t take that risk. Just will say all-in-all highly recommended.
  
 The GEC is the only power tube I've tried with EL11 so far.


----------



## UntilThen

It's no hyperbole. I feel the German ELs have brought a significant change. It'a not subtle. It's significant. No wonder those guys in review33 love it.
  
 Both EL11 and EL12 have amazed me. Wish I have the other adapter to try both together.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's no hyperbole. I feel the German ELs have brought a significant change. It'a not subtle. It's significant. No wonder those guys in review33 love it.
> 
> Both EL11 and EL12 have amazed me. Wish I have the other adapter to try both together.


 

 I'm wondering if you or @hypnos1 have any thoughts on this pair: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-power-tubes-SIEMENS-Klangfilm-EL-12-/282236293213?hash=item41b698105d:g:vosAAOSwYIxX68E0
  
 It's expensive, but I think EL12 coke bottles may not be available for long. Certainly they aren't going to go down in price.
  
 The spez version is available for $129, but I'm guessing Mrs. X new spez adapter will be a little pricey. However, I think it probably will look pretty cool )))
  
 Right now I'm listening to Fleetwood Rumors MQA version on Tidal HD. Really wonderful.


----------



## DavidA

My funny for the night:
 Subject: Technology... (an old classic)
  
  
 Bob,
 This is Alan next door.
 I have a confession to make. I've been riddled with guilt these
 past few months and have been trying
 to pluck up the courage to tell you to your face, but I am at
 least now telling you in text as I
 can't live with myself a moment longer without you knowing.
 The truth is I have been sharing your wife, day and night when
 you're not around. In fact, probably
 more than you. I haven't been getting it at home recently, but
 that's no excuse, I know.  The
 temptation was just too much.  I can no longer live with the
 guilt and I hope you will accept my
 sincerest apologies and forgive me.  It won't happen again.
 I will do anything to keep our friendship!!
 Regards, Alan.
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 Bob, feeling insulted and betrayed, grabbed his gun, and shot
 his neighbor dead. He returned home
 where he poured himself a stiff drink and sat down on the sofa.
 He took out his phone where he saw he
 has a subsequent message from his neighbor:
 . 

 .
 .
 .
 It read:
 Hi Bob,
 This is Alan next door again.  Sorry about the typo on my last
 text.  I expect you figured it out
 anyway, & that you noticed that darned Autocorrect changed
 'Wi-Fi' To 'Wife'.  Technology hey?
 Regards, Alan.


----------



## pctazhp

@DavidA. Great one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Seems to me the shooting was justified anyway. Last week I shot 3 of my neighbors when I discovered they had hired @connieflyer to buzz my home daily.
  
 PS:  Not easy to keep up with the inside jokes on this thread ))))


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I'm wondering if you or @hypnos1 have any thoughts on this pair: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-power-tubes-SIEMENS-Klangfilm-EL-12-/282236293213?hash=item41b698105d:g:vosAAOSwYIxX68E0


 
  
 It's a lovely pair. You won't regret it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Funny how it's easier giving you advice to spend your money than mine. No seriously those are good tubes. The Klangfilm were Siemens well known vintage tube amps and that german quality.
  
 It's the same seller that sold me the TFK EL11.


----------



## connieflyer

Hate to be the one to tell you @pct those 3 guys were set up by the real guys that hired me, so good luck, will be over your house soon.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's a lovely pair. You won't regret it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 So funny. Just as I was ready to click the buy button, the batteries in my mouse went dead and it froze. As if it was trying to tell me something ))) Plugged the charger in and went ahead with the purchase. Seriously, thanks for the advice ))))


----------



## connieflyer

Wouldn't you know it, I was just getting ready to buy them, oh well, going to a worthy guy, and I know where to find you!  The seller has a quad for $399 left, wonder if I should find a partner. They sure look good. Hope I did not rattle your house too much @pctazhp !


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Wouldn't you know it, I was just getting ready to buy them, oh well, going to a worthy guy, and I know where to find you!  The seller has a quad for $399 left, wonder if I should find a partner. They sure look good. Hope I did not rattle your house too much @pctazhp !


 

 Sorry about that (((( If you stop buzzing my house everyday, your savings on fuel will easily finance the $399. Go for it, and let me sleep in peace for a change


----------



## connieflyer

Not going to happen, just sent the seller a message to see if he would break up the quad and sell it in pairs.  We shall see.  By the way, you might want to duck again soon, my Connie has active ECM on board, might want to check your router too!


----------



## UntilThen

I sure hope the EL12 sounds good or I'll go into hiding and change my identity.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Not going to happen, just sent the seller a message to see if he would break up the quad and sell it in pairs.  We shall see.  By the way, you might want to duck again soon, my Connie has active ECM on board, might want to check your router too!


 

 Good luck)))
  
 It's starting to rain here so don't forget your pancho. I'll just consider you my:


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I sure hope the EL12 sounds good or I'll go into hiding and change my identity.


 

 Worst that can happen is @connieflyer will start buzzing your house everyday and leave me alone


----------



## UntilThen

Since you both will be spending $200 for a pair of Siemens, I'll dedicate this Bruce Willis song to you.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> The EL11/GEC6AS7G combo I’ve been listening to since yesterday morning is my favorite so far, by a significant margin. The EL11 doesn’t seem to me to have much in common with the EL3N.
> 
> I think maybe @hypnos1 said the EL11 has a narrower soundstage. I feel I can detect that, but it’s almost as if the EL11 redefines soundstage for me. I have a sensation that  in the past I was looking into the soundstage from the outside, but with EL11 I’m part of the recording venue.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed pct...the "true" Telefunken design EL11's sound (ie. *round* plate) is a lot different to either the EL3N or the Philips stable (ie. _*oval*_ plate) EL11. It was @HOWIE13 who first beat me to actually hearing this tube properly - his adapters arrived before I could hear _*two*_ of them together, but even in just one channel I suspected it would be a winner lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 - and finally(!) my own impressions echoed his precisely : not _quite_ as wide as the EL3N but more 'holographic' and immersive ,with great detail and clarity...WONDERFUL!!...
  


untilthen said:


> It's no hyperbole. I feel the German ELs have brought a significant change. It'a not subtle. It's significant. No wonder those guys in review33 love it.
> 
> Both EL11 and EL12 have amazed me. Wish I have the other adapter to try both together.


 
  
 Certainly _*not*_ hyperbole, UT...2017 will very possibly see a close battle between these tubes and Euforia for #1 spot LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  


pctazhp said:


> I'm wondering if you or @hypnos1 have any thoughts on this pair: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-power-tubes-SIEMENS-Klangfilm-EL-12-/282236293213?hash=item41b698105d:g:vosAAOSwYIxX68E0
> 
> It's expensive, but I think EL12 coke bottles may not be available for long. Certainly they aren't going to go down in price.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again pct...those are no doubt wonderful tubes, but one heck of a price! For a while yet I'm sure there are better bargains to be found by getting _similarly_-measuring singles (TFK/RFT) from ebay.de 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1  Unfortunately, patience is not one of the qualities my dear departed mother managed to instill in me.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @hypnos1  Unfortunately, patience is not one of the qualities my dear departed mother managed to instill in me.


 
  
 Ah well pct, looks like *I* am gonna have to report *YOU* too, mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...however, as it's in a good cause, I absolve you of your sins 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(even if you as well as @UntilThen make my lowly RFTs look somewhat paler lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). But to you also I say.....WELL DONE!...CHEERS and ENJOY!!...


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp I bow to your exteremely fast and efficent mouse finger. I will not be buying the el12 as they do not come in green and that is the color that I need to match my envy! I am so happy for you in fact I will dedicate this song to you.


----------



## connieflyer

This song is one that signifies my wait for the new amp.  @DavidA will remember this man.  Unique voice..


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp I bow to your exteremely fast and efficent mouse finger. I will not be buying the el12 as they do not come in green and that is the color that I need to match my envy! I am so happy for you in fact I will dedicate this song to you.


 
 Green you may be, but sadly my poor empty bank account is not (((  Well, as has been frequently noted, it's all in the interest of "science". I may apply for a grant from the Australian government. @UntilThen owes me use of his impressive political influence.


----------



## connieflyer

I am on board with that idea, let's give him a ring and see what he can do!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I am on board with that idea, let's give him a ring and see what he can do!


 

 May be difficult to reach him. I think he's hiding under the boardwalk )))


----------



## connieflyer

I think they said he is in the outback.  I don't know, I looked out back and did not see him, so you may be right!


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Ah well pct, looks like *I* am gonna have to report *YOU* too, mon ami!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the congrats H1))) Actually, my understanding of the main objective for us members on this thread is to attempt to remain one-up on everyone else


----------



## DavidA

@connieflyer, Brada IZ is one of the best, that voice was just amazing.


----------



## connieflyer

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZOAiSP1MGs always liked this one


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZOAiSP1MGs always liked this one


 

 Really nice CF. You are giving me sensory overload this morning )))
  
 Reminds me of one of my favorite novels:


----------



## connieflyer

Excellant book.


----------



## angpsi

crap guys, you've created me a total junkie! But then, they do look quite beautiful, don't they? (bought them for comparison purposes, as always in the interest of science!)





https://www.ebay.com/itm/262680469108


----------



## vl4dimir

Did you guys pay import taxes on the adaptors from *xulingmrs ?  *sometimes when it's coming from China, it's passing through customs clearance easier. Also do you know if she can declare lower value or send as a gift ?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> crap guys, you've created me a total junkie! But then, they do look quite beautiful, don't they? (bought them for comparison purposes, as always in the interest of science!)
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/262680469108


 
 Beautiful tubes. I too like to buy NOS NIB tubes where possible.
  
 EL12 tubes are claimed to have 10,000 hours lifespan. EL12 are precursor to EL34, the tube that would change audio history.
  
 Here's a link showing the many types of EL12.
 http://www.hupse.eu/radio/tubes/EL12.htm


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> *crap guys, you've created me a total junkie!* But then, they do look quite beautiful, don't they? (bought them for comparison purposes, as always in the interest of science!)


 

  
 Sure hope I get away with this


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Beautiful tubes. I too like to buy NOS NIB tubes where possible.
> 
> EL12 tubes are claimed to have 10,000 hours lifespan. EL12 are precursor to EL34, the tube that would change audio history.
> 
> ...



I do like how the term "Harmonische Reiche" ("Harmonic Series") sounds! Now we wait for the actual tubes... - oh, wait!... and those adapters again...


----------



## connieflyer

Lmao!


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Did you guys pay import taxes on the adaptors from *xulingmrs ?  *sometimes when it's coming from China, it's passing through customs clearance easier. Also do you know if she can declare lower value or send as a gift ?


 
 Let's just say buy with confidence. These are small parcels. I've bought close to 20 adapters from MrsX and they have landed safely.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> I'm wondering if you or @hypnos1 have any thoughts on this pair: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-power-tubes-SIEMENS-Klangfilm-EL-12-/282236293213?hash=item41b698105d:g:vosAAOSwYIxX68E0




GF
MYN

Made by Loewe-Opta in June 1954.


----------



## UntilThen

Some internal pictures of EL11.
 https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.sokoll-technologies.de/Museum/Auto/Typen/EL11.html&prev=search


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Certainly _*not*_ hyperbole, UT...2017 will very possibly see a close battle between these tubes and Euforia for #1 spot LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The game changer. I like to see how this sound on Euforia. There's pin point imaging on Elise now. 2 worlds collide. EL11 and Bendix 6080wb.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> The game changer. I like to see how this sound on Euforia. There's pin point imaging on Elise now. 2 worlds collide. EL11 and Bendix 6080wb.



Hi UT, if you got Tidal or similar please try the "La La Land" OST for "pin point imaging" along with other perks? Even if it isn't one's cup of tea music-wise, I believe anybody who listens through quality gear will be in for a treat! Saw the movie yesterday, and right now I'm listening through my stereo system - amazing recording, soundstage, fidelity, and incredibly sharp instrument and voice placement! Wonder how it sounds through headphones 'cause my ATCs are giving me an extraordinary result! Too bad my Elise is spending the weekend at the office...

Call me a romantic but I loved the movie too!

Edit: In my system it's giving me a very sharp 'in front' soundstage, almost theatrical but very clear and close to center stage. I remember the same effect was very pronounced at the movie theater (instead of surround etc) so it's definitely a sound design choice.


----------



## UntilThen

La La Land "Not All About Money" ?


----------



## UntilThen

Hahaha
  
 La la land 'Original Motion Picture Soundtrack? 
  
 Tidal HiFi is pretty good.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> La La Land "Not All About Money" ?


 
 Really man? Do you know these guys or did you have to google them? (I know I did!)
https://youtu.be/0_YUjXHGsoU


----------



## UntilThen

Is this the only Head-Fi review of T1 G2 ?
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/beyerdynamic-t1-2nd-generation/reviews/17790
  
 I prefer my T1 G1 with a 7N OCC silver cable. They should have continue production of the G1.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Hahaha
> 
> La la land 'Original Motion Picture Soundtrack?
> 
> Tidal HiFi is pretty good.


That's the one!


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> Is this the only Head-Fi review of T1 G2 ?
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/beyerdynamic-t1-2nd-generation/reviews/17790
> 
> I prefer my T1 G1 with a 7N OCC silver cable. They should have continue production of the G1.


 

 Price continues to drop, is there a new phone on the horizon?
https://www.amazon.com/beyerdynamic-Generation-Audiophile-Headphones-Semi-Open/dp/B015ACX03G%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAJ7VMODKUTIUWFY2Q%26tag%3Dheadfiorg-rev-rc-li-t-d-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB015ACX03G


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Really man? Do you know these guys or did you have to google them? (I know I did!)
> https://youtu.be/0_YUjXHGsoU


 
 I type La la land in Tidal and that's what I got - 2nd on the list. Your video is on par with One Night in Bangkok.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Price continues to drop, is there a new phone on the horizon?
> https://www.amazon.com/beyerdynamic-Generation-Audiophile-Headphones-Semi-Open/dp/B015ACX03G%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAJ7VMODKUTIUWFY2Q%26tag%3Dheadfiorg-rev-rc-li-t-d-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB015ACX03G


 
 Yes it's call Utopia.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Some internal pictures of EL11.
> https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.sokoll-technologies.de/Museum/Auto/Typen/EL11.html&prev=search


 

 Great find UT. Very interesting. You are Master of Google


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> The game changer. I like to see how this sound on Euforia. There's pin point imaging on Elise now. 2 worlds collide. EL11 and Bendix 6080wb.


 
  
 I agree with you UT. I just replaced my GECs with Bendix 6080. It's like:


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I agree with you UT. I just replaced my GECs with Bendix 6080. It's like:


 
 Try it with @angpsi La la land video above. It's the movers and shakers. 
  
 I'm afraid my EL11 might pop out of the adapters.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Try it with @angpsi La la land video above. It's the movers and shakers.


 

 I did!!!! As soon as you mentioned One Night in Bangkok it got my undivided attention. Very cool )))


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Great find UT. Very interesting. You are Master of Google


 
 Good.
  
 Next you'll read the History of EL34..... which is where we're heading ultimately. You hear me @hypnos1  ?
  
 You'll see EL11 and EL12 somewhere in there.
  
 http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/EL34-Story/EL34-Story.htm


----------



## pctazhp

Because of EL11 and Elise, I want to live forever (notice VHS) :


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Because of EL11 and Elise, I want to live forever (notice VHS) :


 
 Yes you were 16 then right? That's before responsibilities and love kicks in.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Yes you were 16 then right? That's before responsibilities and love kicks in.


 
 And way before knitting, which @connieflyer recently informed me is for sissies. Kind of an inside joke. No, actually joke is not the right word. More like aimless ramblings of two Old Geezers


----------



## connieflyer

Who you callin old geezer?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Who you callin old geezer?


 

 If the snow boot fits, wear it


----------



## connieflyer

Don't know what you people out there in the west and in the warmth do but in the north up here we don't wear Snow we try to avoid it


----------



## pctazhp

Did someone ask for a Scottsdale weather report??? High today of 67F. For the uncivilized parts of the world, that's 19C.


----------



## connieflyer

We made it to 25 degrees F. To laxy to convert


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> We made it to 25 degrees F. To laxy to convert


 
  
 I'm so sorry. I just can't resist. You're even too laxy to spell "lazy" correctly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And while we're in the middle of an English lesson:
  
 Definition of "to":
  
_a_ —used as a function word to indicate movement or an action or condition suggestive of movement toward a place, person, or thing reached _<drove to the city>_ _<went back to the original idea>_ _<went to lunch>_
_b_ —used as a function word to indicate direction _<a mile to the south>_ _<turned his back to the door>_ _<a tendency to silliness>_
_c_ —used as a function word to indicate contact or proximity _<applied polish to the table>_ _<put her hand to her heart>_
_d_ _(1)_ —used as a function word to indicate the place or point that is the far limit _<100 miles to the nearest town> (2)_ —used as a function word to indicate the limit of extent _<stripped to the waist>_
_e_ —used as a function word to indicate relative position _<perpendicular to the floor>_
  
_Definition of "too":_

 :  besides, also _<sell the house and furniture too>_
 _2__a_ :  to an excessive degree :  excessively _<too large a house for us>__b_ :  to such a degree as to be regrettable _<this time he has gone too far>__c_ :  very _<didn't seem too interested>_
 _3_ :  so 2d _<“I didn't do it.” “You did too.”>_


----------



## connieflyer

It must be all that sun and heat out there that does things to people's minds like this


----------



## UntilThen

Yes !!! My Telefunken EL12 is sent out. Seller says, 'Wow I can't believe my tube is going to Australia. Hope you enjoy it. Greetings from coooold Germany'.


----------



## pctazhp

As my final contribution stupid post of the day, I love this song. But the SQ on the original Procol Harum recording is bad, even on Tidal HD. This one's a little better. There are also 2 or 3 great Sarah Brightman versions on You Tube. Hope I haven't driven everyone away, and will see at least some of you tomorrow)))


----------



## connieflyer

An oldie but goodie for sure. I hope I spelled goody correctly


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> As my final contribution stupid post of the day, I love this song. But the SQ on the original Procol Harum recording is bad, even on Tidal HD. This one's a little better. There are also 2 or 3 great Sarah Brightman versions on You Tube. Hope I haven't driven everyone away, and will see at least some of you tomorrow)))


 
  
 Have you heard my version?


----------



## connieflyer

My offering is close .....


----------



## connieflyer

Moving


----------



## UntilThen

Pack up my tubes and I've a clean desk now. Listening to your moving music CF.


----------



## connieflyer

see it works!


----------



## connieflyer

If you have more to do I have another song;;;;;;


----------



## tonykaz

PSVane tubes.
  
 Have any of you Feliks lads any experience with this Tube Company?, they're a $150 option on some of the amps.  Retail seems to be $300 pair, $150 single.
  
 I think they come "Standard" on the New  Euforia Amp.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## UntilThen

An hour of La La Land music score - just music, no singing, on this pretty cheap combo and I love it. Love to hear you guys feedback on the EL12N, EL12 and EL12spez as power tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

35 of these sold. This is going like hot cakes. Where did all the EL11 and EL12 tubes come from? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-EL11-EL12-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201726996830?hash=item2ef7ddb15e:g:rxEAAOSwEzxYaHTz
  
 Mrs Xu Ling reminded me again that if anyone has problematic EL11 to 6SN7 adapters to email her and she will send you the replacements. She has just send out another 4 to me.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> My offering is close .....





 Your offering is very nice, but "close"???? The definition of "close" is.......oh, I'll just leave that to @hypnos1, because as Rex Harrison said, in America we haven't spoken English for years.
  
 The rest of your offerings from yesterday were also quite nice. As @UntilThen said, quite moving. I'm writing them all down and will listen to them when I'm moving to Europe.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Some internal pictures of EL11.
> https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.sokoll-technologies.de/Museum/Auto/Typen/EL11.html&prev=search


 
  
 VERY interesting UT...if somewhat disconcerting lol! - Why?...just compare those *amazing* internals (complete with _*MESH*_ plate!!!) with this Telefunken I hammered due to terrible microphony...*different animal entirely!!! *








...would dearly LOVE to know exactly which brand/year those pics referred to! (even more impressive than my Black Glass '40s oval mesh-plate Valvo EL11s...can't begin to imagine what they would/could sound like, given the superiority of said Valvos!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  

  

  
  
  


untilthen said:


> Good.
> 
> Next you'll read the History of EL34..... which is where we're heading ultimately. You hear me @hypnos1  ?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks but no thanks UT..."Coke Bottles Rule", as far as I'm concerned lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


tonykaz said:


> PSVane tubes.
> 
> Have any of you Feliks lads any experience with this Tube Company?, they're a $150 option on some of the amps.  Retail seems to be $300 pair, $150 single.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi tonykaz...I suspect those $300 PsVanes you mention must be the CV181 TII version?...the PsV 6SN7 stock for Euforia is much less than that. And I'm afraid there are better tubes for that $300, as we have covered for a long while now...and the latest EL11 beats the TII hands down, for a fraction of the price lol!!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> VERY interesting UT...if somewhat disconcerting lol! - Why?...just compare those *amazing* internals (complete with _*MESH*_ plate!!!) with this Telefunken I hammered due to terrible microphony...*different animal entirely!!! *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 We need a time machine to go back to 1938 to find out. We demand MESH plate. !!! His tube internals does look elaborate.
  
 But while I'm tying this song came on in Tidal. French female singer and I'm captivated.


----------



## UntilThen

I think this is what comes with Euforia. UK design 6SN7.


----------



## pctazhp

I'm often interested when I turn Elise on in the morning to see if I love it as much as I did the night before when I turned it off. This morning I've been listening to EL11/Bendix6080 and am mesmerized. I think we need to start a new thread for Elise Mk2, which is standard Elise with EL11 drivers. Later, we can start another thread for Elise Mk3, which is standard Elise with pure EL11/12 combo


----------



## HOWIE13

Taking a break from listening this morning and getting some much needed fresh air. 
  
 While walking I was contemplating whether I am going to remain an Elisian (or should it be Elysian), or should I become a Euforian (or is it an Euforian).
  
 Difficult with these EL tubes sounding so good in Elise.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Taking a break from listening this morning and getting some much needed fresh air.
> 
> While walking I was contemplating whether I am going to remain an Elisian (or should it be Elysian), or should I become a Euforian (or is it an Euforian).
> 
> Difficult with these EL tubes sounding so good in Elise.


 

 For now you could be an "IDon'tKnowIan"


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> For now you could be an "IDon'tKnowIan"


 
 That sums me up perfectly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I just better go out for another walk and stop thinking too much about it.


----------



## UntilThen

You mean Elle tubes? 


howie13 said:


> Taking a break from listening this morning and getting some much needed fresh air.
> 
> While walking I was contemplating whether I am going to remain an Elisian (or should it be Elysian), or should I become a Euforian (or is it an Euforian).
> 
> Difficult with these EL tubes sounding so good in Elise.


 
  
 I'm sure @hypnos1 has an answer for that. Put the Elle tubes in Euforia and get Eureka.


----------



## angpsi

Interesting turn of events: I before @UntilThen contacted Ms Xuling I had already asked another eBay seller named SuzierAudio about the same question. After a brief exchange, his answer was the following:

Hello!
I already check this type.
EL12SP can't repalce 6SN7.It's not working good.
It's can replace KT66.It's working good.
EL12SP repalce 6SN7 is not just sound good.It's can't.
So you know.
thank you
Good luck!
Have a good day!
Suzier Audio

What do you guys think?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Interesting turn of events: I before @UntilThen contacted Ms Xuling I had already asked another eBay seller named SuzierAudio about the same question. After a brief exchange, his answer was the following:
> 
> Hello!
> I already check this type.
> ...


 
  
 Don't you worry angpsi. We gave the secrets to MrsX. We didn't give it to Suzier. 
  
 We're not replacing 6SN7. We're using these Pentodes as Triodes-strapped in Elise. It's been done with C3G, EL3N, EL11 and EL12. Your EL12spez is just another Pentode tube with similar data specs.
  
 As for it not sounding good, don't worry. We've been having our eureka moments for a long time. It's hard to contain these guys.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> We need a time machine to go back to 1938 to find out. We demand MESH plate. !!! His tube internals does look elaborate.


 
  
 'If I don't get a mesh plate I'll sctheam and sctheam and sctheam until I'm thick. I can you know'!


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Don't you worry angpsi. We gave the secrets to MrsX. We didn't give it to Suzier.
> 
> We're not replacing 6SN7. We're using these Pentodes as Triodes-strapped in Elise. It's been done with C3G, EL3N, EL11 and EL12. Your EL12spez is just another Pentode tube with similar data specs.
> 
> As for it not sounding good, don't worry. We've been having our eureka moments for a long time. It's hard to contain these guys.


 
  
 Hi UT and @angpsi...and don't forget, we will be using the EL12 in the _*power*_ 6AS7G circuit, not the _*driver*_ 6SN7's! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...I personally never liked the idea of using the 12 as driver, given it has _*double*_ the output of the EL11! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT and @angpsi...and don't forget, we will be using the EL12 in the _*power*_ 6AS7G circuit, not the _*driver*_ 6SN7's!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Correct. EL11 in front and EL12 behind because Archimedes says so.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> 'If I don't get a mesh plate I'll sctheam and sctheam and sctheam until I'm thick. I can you know'!


 
  
 I hear you already, H13...I simply cannot believe those incredible internal shots of an "EL11" are indeed an *EL11 lol!!!*...I have a fair selection and none looks anything like that one in UT's link! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...not even the obviously older Black Glass TFKs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And as for the mesh *Philips *design examples...."hen's teeth" comes to mind alas!!


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> An hour of La La Land music score - just music, no singing, on this pretty cheap combo and I love it. Love to hear you guys feedback on the EL12N, EL12 and EL12spez as power tubes.



So glad I'm not alone in this! I was getting worried I was deemed too mellow for the likes of this thread!...



untilthen said:


> Don't you worry angpsi. We gave the secrets to MrsX. We didn't give it to Suzier.
> 
> We're not replacing 6SN7. We're using these Pentodes as Triodes-strapped in Elise. It's been done with C3G, EL3N, EL11 and EL12. Your EL12spez is just another Pentode tube with similar data specs.
> 
> As for it not sounding good, don't worry. We've been having our eureka moments for a long time. It's hard to contain these guys.



...and she, keeping true to her reputation, was quick to satisfy our demands: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192078856349


----------



## pctazhp

So I guess it is safe to say Euforia doesn't suck like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JRB3ZNC?psc=1


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> I hear you already, H13...I simply cannot believe those incredible internal shots of an "EL11" are indeed an *EL11 lol!!!*...I have a fair selection and none looks anything like that one in UT's link!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Such a pity the glass is opaque.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT and @angpsi
> ...and don't forget, we will be using the EL12 in the _*power*_ 6AS7G circuit, not the _*driver*_ 6SN7's! :wink_face: ...I personally never liked the idea of using the 12 as driver, given it has _*double*_ the output of the EL11! :rolleyes: ...


So -forgive my ignorance- does this affect how the adapter is made?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> ...and she, keeping true to her reputation, was quick to satisfy our demands: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192078856349


 
  
 Oh wow that's speedy gonzales. Now that's tempting me to buy EL12spez tubes !!!  Horrors !!!


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> That sums me up perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 No need to _think_ about it at all, mon ami....you simply _*do*_ it lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(thinking is too much like hard work! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 ps. 'tis *a* Euforia...but then, I'm sure you know lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


untilthen said:


> You mean Elle tubes?
> 
> I'm sure @hypnos1 has an answer for that. Put the Elle tubes in Euforia and get Eureka.


 
  
 Aahh, UT...how did you know that's me _*already lol?!!!*_...which reminds me...it's nearing time I pulled off the gloves and enlighten all those Euforia onlookers who haven't been fortunate enough to follow us here in Eliseland...(especially before we run out of EL11s in particular!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> So I guess it is safe to say Euforia doesn't suck like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JRB3ZNC?psc=1


 
  
 Only in the way he/she/it will draw in folks once people begin to see just what I've been going on about...so far, already lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  


howie13 said:


> Such a pity the glass is opaque.


 
  
 Was just able to peek inside my 2..._*no mesh alas!!*_










  


angpsi said:


> So -forgive my ignorance- does this affect how the adapter is made?


 
  
 No, angpsi...the _*pin-out*_ is the same for both tubes, but the amp's circuit will be different...


----------



## pctazhp

To Euforia or not:


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> So -forgive my ignorance- does this affect how the adapter is made?


 
 No it does not. 6SN7 and 6AS7 have the same octal pins. Which is why when you buy socket savers for Elise, the same octal socket savers can be used in both driver and power slots. 
  
 Now you'll be surprised that you can actually use your 6SN7 as power tubes. It will work but I wouldn't advise it. Similarly you can use your 6AS7 in the driver but I definitely wouldn't advise it. We had a previous owner who insert his 5998 in the driver position by mistake and told us it sounded good. *This you definitely shouldn't do.*
  
 6SN7 as drivers and 6AS7 as power tubes. This is set in stone. When in doubt, feel free to ask.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> To Euforia or not:




  











...this your kind of music @HOWIE13??!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## connieflyer

Good Stuff!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Good Stuff!


 
 Which one? All 374 pages?


----------



## connieflyer

370 no index


----------



## DavidA

@connieflyer​,  @pctazhp, @UntilThen love all the music that get posted.  I only wish some of you use more headphones than 1 or 2.  I know many don't like switching but I still feel like you might be missing out.  I would say 4 headphones is the minimum, one fun/bass head can like TH-600/610, a planar like HE-560 or LCD-3, a good dynamic like T1 or HD-800/S, and either a Grado, AKG or E-Stat to cover all basis.  These are the last 2 Ypsilons that I built:


​\

 I might be sending these to a friend in California so if anyone wants a listen let me know and we'll try to work something out.


----------



## connieflyer

Stay calm..


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Oh wow that's speedy gonzales. Now that's tempting me to buy EL12spez tubes !!!  Horrors !!!


always in the interest of science, right? Plus, it's also a nice stimulus to our ailing global economy...


----------



## connieflyer

Back in my Ember days, I used a dual 7193 tube setup, and the anode connector was tempermental to say the least.  It had to be tightened and once secure it worked fine. But if the wire was moved, it had to be "adjusted" to make a secure connection.  Nice tubes but too much hassle, and our Mrs. X was the source of the adapter. So for my two cents not worth the hassle.  YMMV of course.


----------



## pctazhp

@DavidA. Your work is beautiful and thank you for your generous offer. But if I owned more than one headphone I'd probably lose one or both. I think if you look at any of my recent posts you'll understand why


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA thank you for the offer, but it might be better if I could try all four at one time, so if you wouldn't mind, perhaps you could send me an airline ticket instead?


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT and @angpsi
> ...and don't forget, we will be using the EL12 in the _*power*_ 6AS7G circuit, not the _*driver*_ 6SN7's! :wink_face: ...I personally never liked the idea of using the 12 as driver, given it has _*double*_ the output of the EL11! :rolleyes: ...







untilthen said:


> Correct. EL11 in front and EL12 behind because Archimedes says so. :bigsmile_face:







untilthen said:


> No it does not. 6SN7 and 6AS7 have the same octal pins. Which is why when you buy socket savers for Elise, the same octal socket savers can be used in both driver and power slots.
> 
> Now you'll be surprised that you can actually use your 6SN7 as power tubes. It will work but I wouldn't advise it. Similarly you can use your 6AS7 in the driver but I definitely wouldn't advise it. We had a previous owner who insert his 5998 in the driver position by mistake and told us it sounded good. *This you definitely shouldn't do.*
> 
> 6SN7 as drivers and 6AS7 as power tubes. This is set in stone. When in doubt, feel free to ask.


Got it, thanks! There's a certain clarity to keeping one's experiments within reasonable boundaries; besides, there's music to be enjoyed in the process, isn't there?


----------



## connieflyer

And I leave you with another mellow tune....


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Got it, thanks! There's a certain clarity to keeping one's experiments within reasonable boundaries; besides, there's *music* to be enjoyed in the process, isn't there?


 
 Music is just a means to an end, which is to own as many tubes and headphones as possible


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Music is just a means to an end, which is to own as many tubes and headphones as possible


Not me man, I promise I'll keep my head straight! (let's hope I won't start selling household valuables any time soon)


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Not me man, I promise I'll keep my head straight!* (let's hope I won't start selling household valuables any time soon)*


 
 If you do, @UntilThen will send you a Eureka vacuum cleaner.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> If you do, @UntilThen
> will send you a Eureka vacuum cleaner.


BUT... does it come with an adapter or can I plug it in straight away?
Edit: jokes aside, it IS 220V out here so... :rofl:


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> BUT... does it come with an adapter or can I plug it in straight away?


 

 He's pretty cheap. You'll have to get your own adapter.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Edit: jokes aside, it IS 220V out here so... :rofl:


 
 Could be a problem. Australia doesn't use voltage measurements. They use KPD (Kangaroo Potential Differential)


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> Back in my Ember days, I used a dual 7193 tube setup, and the anode connector was tempermental to say the least.  It had to be tightened and once secure it worked fine. But if the wire was moved, it had to be "adjusted" to make a secure connection.  Nice tubes but too much hassle, and our Mrs. X was the source of the adapter. So for my two cents not worth the hassle.  YMMV of course.


Something like that might do the job though?


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Not me man, I promise I'll keep my head straight! *(let's hope I won't start selling household valuables any time soon)*


 
  
 Wouldn't count on it, mon ami!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








pctazhp said:


> Music is just a means to an end, *which is to own as many tubes and headphones as possible*


 
  
 Er...you forgot to mention _*amps*_ lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....


----------



## connieflyer

The metal clip inside ceramic anode shell is what comes loose, the only place to put rtp would be on the shell and the tube, not a good idea.
 Quote:


angpsi said:


> Something like that might do the job though?


----------



## connieflyer

Okay I have been neglecting Norwegian groups so how about this?  First time I heard him, sounded just like Jim Morrison.


----------



## angpsi

Just joking @connieflyer; didn't think my suggestion would actually have technical merit! Good to know, though, that you guys are looking out for me not to do anything stupid!


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 I had a very bad experience with Suzier and would not trust them. Go with Xuling - if something does not work the item will be replaced free of charge.
  
 Some tubes use the anode cap and it should not be a problem, not withstanding CF's experience.


----------



## connieflyer

There are no dumb questions just dumb answers and better to err on the side of positive!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Okay I have been neglecting Norwegian groups so how about this?  First time I heard him, sounded just like Jim Morrison.


 
 I really love Norwegian music.


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer. I went out early this morning to hang out at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport hoping I'd run into you. I just hope I didn't catch a cold out on that runway.


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> I had a very bad experience with Suzier and would not trust them. Go with Xuling - if something does not work the item will be replaced free of charge.
> 
> Some tubes use the anode cap and it should not be a problem, not withstanding CF's experience.


Already did (edit: go with Ms Xuling) @mordy, my adapters are paid for and hopefully soon enough on their way. Unfortunately est. ETA is yet unknown so once again we're in the all too familiar territory of... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> No it does not. 6SN7 and 6AS7 have the same octal pins. Which is why when you buy socket savers for Elise, the same octal socket savers can be used in both driver and power slots.
> 
> Now you'll be surprised that you can actually use your 6SN7 as power tubes. It will work but I wouldn't advise it. Similarly you can use your 6AS7 in the driver but I definitely wouldn't advise it. We had a previous owner who insert his 5998 in the driver position by mistake and told us it sounded good. *This you definitely shouldn't do.*
> 
> 6SN7 as drivers and 6AS7 as power tubes. This is set in stone. When in doubt, feel free to ask.


 
 In keeping with what you advise I think I read somewhere that, in general, the amplification factor of the power tube should be lower than the driver tube.
 Since 6AS7 has an amplification of around 2 and even 5998 is only 5, those other tubes mentioned have much higher amplification.
  
 I expect someone who designs amps would be able to confirm or refute this vague memory of mine..


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer. I know you are operating in stealth mode today, but does this bring back any memories?


----------



## connieflyer

Boy that sure takes me back haven't heard that in 30 years maybe more I can't remember this morning so I can not be expected to remember that long ago! Good one


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> I might be sending these to a friend in California so if anyone wants a listen let me know and we'll try to work something out.


 
 Thanks David but I can't handle more than 3 headphones with all this tube rolling happening.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Er...you forgot to mention _*amps*_ lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I didn't think I'd be crazy enough to do this but I am. Elise sounded very good to my ears. Some of the guys in the Eikon thread says so too.
  
 So naturally when you say the Euforia is a totally different experience and much better, I took the plunge and order one. Now the count down to late Feb for it's arrival.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Thanks David but I can't handle more than 3 headphones with all this tube rolling happening.


 

 Ummmmmm. Australia is not next to California. That's Arizona. Australia is on other side of Pacific Ocean from California. Maps provided upon request.


----------



## UntilThen

Sydney is only 14 hours flight to Oahu, over shark infested waters.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Sydney is only 14 hours flight to Oahu, over shark infested waters.


 
 Mighty classy new avatar, I must say. I'll be more respectful from now on.


----------



## mordy

I assume this avatar from Nov 2015 has to do with critical listening.....
  
 What kind of productions?


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> I assume this avatar from Nov 2015 has to do with critical listening.....
> 
> *What kind of productions?*


 
  
 I suspect that is still highly classified. I know Wikileaks is working very hard right now to find out.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I didn't think I'd be crazy enough to do this but I am. Elise sounded very good to my ears. Some of the guys in the Eikon thread says so too.
> 
> So naturally when you say the Euforia is a totally different experience and much better, I took the plunge and order one. Now the count down to late Feb for it's arrival.


 
  
 But hey, UT...we all _*know*_ you're crazy - it's the main prerequisite for being a member here lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...night night...


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. hypnos1 on PSVane 6SN7,
  
 Thank you,
  
 I figured if anybody knew it'd be you lads. 
  
 The EL11 pairs sell for way-less on Ebay, you're right!  
  
 The PSVane tubes are rather pretty and come in beautiful little boxes ( is the packaging worth $225? ).  
  
 Having said all that, I'm about to buy $270 US worth of Festool Sandpapers that will sound scratchy  ( ouch ).
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## connieflyer

Here you go @UntilThen something to help you sleep, it already put H1 and PCT asleep


----------



## pctazhp

tonykaz said:


> Mr. hypnos1 on PSVane 6SN7,
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> ...


 
  
 I like Sandpipers:


----------



## mordy

Hi tonykaz,
  
 Tried to read up a little about the PSVane CV181 tubes- makes me feel uneasy.
  
 There seems to be at least six different variants with different colored bases and glass, and different and fancier boxes. In addition, the prices are all over the map.
  
 There is a Canadian distributor that claims that the sellers that offer cheap prices are selling B-stock and factory rejects, whereas the factory site states that all substandard tubes are destroyed.
  
 There is white base/clear glass, gold base/smoked glass, Mark I, MarkII, UK edition. Treasure, Treasure Premium
  
 Are these tubes really that different in construction and sound?


----------



## HOWIE13

@tonykaz
  
 Hi Tony, I missed your original post and yes, hypnos1 and mordy are spot on with their assessments.
 There are many vague iterations of this tube and I have the CV181-Z tubes.
 I've used them in Garage amps as well as Espressivo and Elise.
 They have striking good looks, and sound smooth, neutral, pleasant, very quiet background, and inoffensive. They are also solidly made.
 However, the sound-stage is only moderately wide with not much depth or height and the dynamics are pretty flat.
 They would be nice for late night relaxation but for me they are too polite and tame-and very overpriced compared to other comparably sounding 6SN7 octals.
 As ever, just my personal opinion.


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp I will let you slowly regain consciousness with this little number. knowing your propensity for fuddy duddyness, I will make it easy on you.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> An hour of La La Land music score - just music, no singing, on this pretty cheap combo and I love it. Love to hear you guys feedback on the EL12N, EL12 and EL12spez as power tubes.


 
 You're quite right @UntilThen, just listening through my headphones and the stage effect that the "Original Soundtrack" version has on my stereo system is nothing alike (more of an 'in your head' experience). Whoever's got a good stereo speaker system should definitely try it, especially if it's an analytical one.
  
 Still, headphone listening is lovely on tunes that are not congested with many instruments (see, e.g. attached video). For the same reason, I agree that the "Motion Picture Score" version is incredibly enjoyable through the Elise!


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Wouldn't count on it, mon ami!!


 
 Dear @hypnos1 , I lapsed! Would you please be my sponsor at the AA meeting? (Audioholics Anonymous)
  
 Looks like the oval plate, though...


----------



## pctazhp

So it looks like just about everything has been figured out, and I don't have anything left to talk about. Especially now that I have to treat @UntilThen with respect. Of course, @connieflyer is still fair game)))
  
 Elise is perfect, Euforia is even more perfect, and German EL11 is the driver of the century. I guess we are still waiting for feedback on EL12 to roll in, so will keep my eyes open (at least while I'm awake).


----------



## pctazhp

@angpsi. I can't really tell from the photos what shape your plate is. I wasn't sure about the ones I ordered, even after they arrived. But I'm sure I got the round plate version. A little difficult to tell from visual inspection because of the angle from which I can see the plate, but I can't see the crimps that are characteristic of the oval plate. Certainly they are not where they usually appear from the pictures I've seen, and there is only a small part of the plate I can't see (hidden by that top metal thing).. Most important, my EL11s sound significantly different than EL3N and much better.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp I will let you slowly regain consciousness with this little number. knowing your propensity for fuddy duddyness, I will make it easy on you.


 
  
 What more could a man possibly want in the morning than a cup of coffee and this song???? Hmmmm. I may have to think about that
  
 Great song


----------



## connieflyer

The man was a poet and and musician with a voice and style all his own.


----------



## hypnos1

tonykaz said:


> Mr. hypnos1 on PSVane 6SN7,
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Our pleasure, Tony...I certainly think the TII (Premium) is the prettiest tube out there - and the matched pair results cards and box are extremely impressive...but no, not worth the money alas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


pctazhp said:


> @angpsi. I can't really tell from the photos what shape your plate is. I wasn't sure about the ones I ordered, even after they arrived. But I'm sure I got the round plate version. A little difficult to tell from visual inspection because of the angle from which I can see the plate, but I can't see the crimps that are characteristic of the oval plate. Certainly they are not where they usually appear from the pictures I've seen, and there is only a small part of the plate I can't see (hidden by that top metal thing).. Most important, my EL11s sound significantly different than EL3N and much better.


 
  
 ONCE AGAIN you've read my mind, pct...this is beginning to worry me somewhat lol!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 I was just about to ask you if you found any difference in sound between your suspected "Philips made-for-Telefunken" EL11s and the EL3N...and, (thank the Gods, as well as you!) from what you say, they must indeed be the "true" TFK design - there's no mistaking the difference in sound!! So I think we can all rest easy now (??!!) that Telefunken labelled EL11s are indeed Telefunken EL11s LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but I fear poor angpsi has indeed lapsed with his Valvo EL11 - I'm afraid it would appear I might just have the last few on the entire planet that have the _*mesh-plated*_ oval shape, which are so much different from the _*solid-plate*_ it's untrue!!...(well, with mine anyway...).
  
 And so I'm real glad you like your EL11s, mon ami...another satisfied customer...(I knew I should have bought up all available supplies of these beauties!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


angpsi said:


> Dear @hypnos1 , I lapsed! Would you please be my sponsor at the AA meeting? (Audioholics Anonymous)
> 
> Looks like the oval plate, though...


 
  
 Hi angpsi...and yes, I'll happily watch over you at the meeting! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - I'm afraid you didn't luck out this time lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. As mentioned above, although old/Black Glass/Valvo, if it doesn't have the _*mesh*_ plate (all the usual Valvos/Philips/Tungsram/Tesla EL11s appear to have the Philips design *oval *plate), then it will most probably - from my own experience - sound more like the EL3N than the "true" Telefunken design EL11....sorry...(but then, the EL3N is still a wonderful tube!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 ps. I do hope that isn't the emission value on that tester lol?...
  


howie13 said:


> @tonykaz
> 
> Hi Tony, I missed your original post and yes, hypnos1 and mordy are spot on with their assessments.
> There are many vague iterations of this tube and I have the CV181-Z tubes.
> ...


 
  
 Your description is spot on, H13...they're nice, but not particularly exciting, alas...shame!...


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> You're quite right @UntilThen, just listening through my headphones and the stage effect that the "Original Soundtrack" version has on my stereo system is nothing alike (more of an 'in your head' experience). Whoever's got a good stereo speaker system should definitely try it, especially if it's an analytical one.
> 
> Still, headphone listening is lovely on tunes that are not congested with many instruments (see, e.g. attached video). For the same reason, I agree that the "Motion Picture Score" version is incredibly enjoyable through the Elise!


 
 Headphones and loudspeakers are different experience but for all of us here in Head-Fi, we still indulge in headphones because we want our own musical space. Yes our very own where we can turn up the volume without getting bananas thrown at us or listen at a lower volume late at night and still hear everything.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/490583/headphones-are-great-but-will-never-be-speakers


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I assume this avatar from Nov 2015 has to do with critical listening.....
> 
> What kind of productions?


 
  
 I was critical then. Now I'm relaxed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Practise this stance everyday and you'll hear more through your system.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> So it looks like just about everything has been figured out, and I don't have anything left to talk about. Especially now that I have to treat @UntilThen with respect. Of course, @connieflyer is still fair game)))
> 
> *E*lise is perfect, *E*uforia is even more perfect, and German *E*L11 is the driver of the century. I guess we are still waiting for feedback on *E*L12 to roll in, so will keep my eyes open (at least while I'm awake).


 
  
 My dear Pandawan, having grasped the significance of the 'E's is your ticket to Audio nirvana. Now go and practise the stance above and be a good student.


----------



## vl4dimir

http://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/2-Telefunken-tubes-EL11-71-23-matched-pair-1950-/112269937169?hash=item1a23cf4a11:g:x0YAAOSwjDZYe6OJ​
  
 Are this ones , the EL11 you guys are so much talking about ?


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> http://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/2-Telefunken-tubes-EL11-71-23-matched-pair-1950-/112269937169?hash=item1a23cf4a11:g:x0YAAOSwjDZYe6OJ​
> 
> Are this ones , the EL11 you guys are so much talking about ?


 
 I'm afraid @hypnos1  has already bought that. The world's supply of EL11 and 12 is dwindling fast. The sellers must be wondering why their stocks are suddenly moving so fast.


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> I'm afraid @hypnos1  has already bought that. The world's supply of EL11 and 12 is dwindling fast. The sellers must be wondering why their stocks are suddenly moving so fast.


 

 I placed an offer for 60$ and got accepted, worth it ?


----------



## UntilThen

Ooooo these are quite different and special EL11s...
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-tubes-EL11-Loewe-and-others-71-24-tested-tubes-/112271151257?hash=item1a23e1d099:g:1cMAAOSw241YfNom


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> I placed an offer for 60$ and got accepted, worth it ?


 
 I think so but we need you to tell us when you hear it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Those black Telefunkens looks like what H1 has.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I was critical then. Now I'm relaxed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmmmm UT...bin doin' that for yonks now...all I've got is a bad back lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 ps. Not buying _*any more tubes lol!!!*_





...don't even try tempting me!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  


vl4dimir said:


> I placed an offer for 60$ and got accepted, worth it ?


 
  
 Worth it, vl4?...you kiddin' me lol?!...for $60?...what d'ya want, mon ami..._*blood?!!!*_...All I can say is...WELL DONE!!...and CHEERS!, welcome to the club


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Ooooo these are quite different and special EL11s...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-tubes-EL11-Loewe-and-others-71-24-tested-tubes-/112271151257?hash=item1a23e1d099:g:1cMAAOSw241YfNom


 
  
 Hi UT...special lol?...afraid not methinks - these will no doubt be the equivalent 'N' version, as per the EL12 tubes...and with the latter, they don't appear to quite match the giddy heights of the "Coke Bottles" lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...but sure would be interesting to compare with the ST 11s...shan't be me though, I'm afraid...this time I _*am*_ sticking to my new mantra - which _*is?!*_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> *.this time I am sticking to my new mantra - which is?!.*..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is your new mantra.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  




 Tried to practice this stance to hear more from my system. but found the floor standing speakers to heavy to hold to my ears......
  
 This worked better, but pct put me to sleep....




  
 But you could eat your cake and have it too...


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> My dear Pandawan, having grasped the significance of the 'E's is your ticket to Audio nirvana. Now go and practise the stance above and be a good student.


 

 Your wish is my command, Oh Great Wise Man.
  
 Stance assumed. Body leaning like Leaning Tower of Pisa. Body crashing into permanent prone position ))))


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi angpsi...and yes, I'll happily watch over you at the meeting!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have my 'proper' EL11s in the mail: a matching pair of ca.1952 RFTs testing at 30mA which, according to the seller rates as "sehr gut". This one is a single tube which I won at an auction for $20 - same price as the RFTs but I saw that Valvos go for $30 or so. It was an impulse buy, which makes little sense since I also need to pair it. Hence the comment about 'lapsing': I cannot help myself! 


hypnos1 said:


> ps. I do hope that isn't the emission value on that tester lol?...


 
 Why, what's wrong with it? The card above the meter seems to indicate 28mA. The seller rated it as "sehr gut" on the title of the ad.


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> You're quite right @UntilThen, just listening through my headphones and the stage effect that the "Original Soundtrack" version has on my stereo system is nothing alike (more of an 'in your head' experience). Whoever's got a good stereo speaker system should definitely try it, especially if it's an analytical one.
> 
> Still, headphone listening is lovely on tunes that are not congested with many instruments (see, e.g. attached video). For the same reason, I agree that the "Motion Picture Score" version is incredibly enjoyable through the Elise!


 
 The record is still extremely enjoyable through my Etymotic Hf2s/Meridian Explorer... No Elise/tubes rolling though, so probably I'm off topic!


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> But you could eat your cake and have it too...


 
 Is that an Amphion?
  
 *Edit: ok, got it: http://inearspace.com/2015/07/28/experiencing-near-field-speakers-with-amphion-feat-argon0-amp100-mono/
 Do you own it?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> The record is still extremely enjoyable through my Etymotic Hf2s/Meridian Explorer... No Elise/tubes rolling though, so probably I'm *off topic*!


 
 Ha))))) Off topic on this thread???? The extreme example of that is yet to be discovered. But we are certainly trying hard to find.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey mordy...you do realise that such posts as this automatically qualify you for membership of the Euforia Club, no?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 ...
  


angpsi said:


> I have my 'proper' EL11s in the mail: a matching pair of ca.1952 RFTs testing at 30mA which, according to the seller rates as "sehr gut". This one is a single tube which I won at an auction for $20 - same price as the RFTs but I saw that Valvos go for $30 or so. It was an impulse buy, which makes little sense since I also need to pair it. Hence the comment about 'lapsing': I cannot help myself!
> Why, what's wrong with it? The card above the meter seems to indicate 28mA. The seller rated it as "sehr gut" on the title of the ad.


 
  
 Aahh, angpsi...you could well be right  - I don't know just how that tester is used, and presumably it's the _card_ that is the true measure, and not the _meter _lol...(I always assumed the machine would be set with the parameters for a particular tube, and then the meter read...???). But certainly, 28mA should indeed indicate "sehr gut" (ie. very good, of course).
  
 And well done on those RFTs at 30mA....should do you just fine lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 At this point I would like to remind folks once again that these old tubes can sometimes have loose bases, which may not be obvious at first. I therefore recommend very strongly that you *ALWAYS *remove them by the base, *NEVER* by pulling on the tube...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. A loose base isn't otherwise something to worry about unduly, but certainly warrants glueing back securely...especially if _very_ loose!


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> This is your new mantra.


 
  
 Oh dear no, my good friend...FAR too deep for the likes of me lol!...this is MUCH more like it lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## UntilThen

You guys are too witty for me. The Class of 2017 will be like no other.


----------



## connieflyer

Whooooaaa. You are saying that CJ is class of 2017 we are indeed in trouble


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Don't own those speakers, just found the picture on Google images.
  
 I have a set of wonderful speakers that cost $240 on sale - Polk Monitor 50 with a PSW10 sub woofer.


----------



## pctazhp

I need to clear up some obvious confusion over the roles certain of our time worn more illustrious members play on this thread, H1 is Dean of Feliks Audio University, and engages in advanced study of tubes no one ever heard about before. He frequently risks censure for the shabby affair of University finances. UT is more witty than the rest of us combined and is a full tenured professor teaching such popular classes as How to Love Rolling Tubes In Your Spare Time. CF is our Minister of Culture and Director of Transportation. He is particularly revered for his frequent flights of fantasy. Mordy is also a fully tenured professor and head of the Department of Sleep Studies. Howie actually believes we care about tubes. DL is fully tenured and head of the Department of Astrological Studies. David is Chair of the Social and Party Committee. JV is a guest lecturer on Ancient Vinyl-based Technologies. Angpsi chose early placement in the Class of 2017 and often can be heard muttering to himself "What in the world have I gotten myself into???" Let's see. Have I forgotten anyone? Oh yeah. I maintain the rabbit cages.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I need to clear up some obvious confusion over the roles certain of our time worn more illustrious members play on this thread, H1 is Dean of Feliks Audio University, and engages in advanced study of tubes no one ever heard about before. He frequently risks censure for the shabby affair of University finances. UT is more witty than the rest of us combined and is a full tenured professor teaching such popular classes as How to Love Rolling Tubes In Your Spare Time. CF is our Minister of Culture and Director of Transportation. He is particularly revered for his frequent flights of fantasy. Mordy is also a fully tenured professor and head of the Department of Sleep Studies. Howie actually believes we care about tubes. DL is fully tenured and head of the Department of Astrological Studies. David is Chair of the Social and Party Committee. JV is a guest lecturer on Ancient Vinyl-based Technologies. Angpsi chose early placement in the Class of 2017 and often can be heard muttering to himself "What in the world have I gotten myself into???" Let's see. Have I forgotten anyone? Oh yeah. I maintain the rabbit cages.


 
 What in the world have I gotten myself into???


----------



## connieflyer

As Minister of Culture and Director of Transportation, I would like to send this message to you,"LMAO". Hope that is enough culture for you. For funding we will take it up at the next bored meeting!


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> As Minister of Culture and Director of Transportation, I would like to send this message to you,"LMAO". Hope that is enough culture for you. For funding we will take it up at the next bored meeting!


 I'll accept sponsorship from the Feliks family and Ms Xuling anytime!


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> What in the world have I gotten myself into???


 
  
 Well, my dear angpsi, I have indeed tried to post warning signs along the way! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...so no excuses, I'm afraid lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And to @pctazhp and @UntilThen I feel obliged, as Dean, to inform you that my mantra has, sadly, necessitated a sudden change and must now appear prominent over the University Gates :
  

  
 CHEERS!...and Good Night...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. I leave you in contemplative mood as "Full Moon in Paris" (Amber Ruth) is rolling 'round my head in hi-res, via Euforia/mesh Valvo EL11s/GEC CV2523s/Beyer T1...and I am totally dumbfounded...what have _*I*_ gotten myself into??!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Glad you appointed me to Feliks Audio University. Now a question for eBay University - how would you handle this:
  
 I bought an EL tube that was listed as NOS.
  
 This is an email that I received from the seller, who apparently is a female, judging from the name. The seller reported the tube as sent.
  
Please give me your feedback about the tube. I was not sure that she
 is good anymore.My testresultlist is 30-40 years old and I waiting for the repair of my tubetester.
 If the tube is'nt as expected please mail to me (if possible with picture) and I send a replacement/refund
 Hope to see you again on ebay
 best regards​  
 One of the problems I have is that I do not have a mate for this tube yet, and I haven't gotten the adapters - probably a month away. And I am not going to pay the postage sending it back for a refund - not worth it.
  
 I felt like asking her if she looks the same as she did 30-40 years ago.
  
 What is the eBay/PayPal policies in this case?


----------



## aqsw

Im taking my psvanes from the euforia and immediately putting yhem on ebay, along with the Svetlanas


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Glad you appointed me to Feliks Audio University. Now a question for eBay University - how would you handle this:
> 
> ...


 

 I've never had a problem with Ebay sellers so I don't have a clear answer to your question. But it seems to me you should be entitled to return the tube with seller covering your return shipping and fully refunding the original shipping charge and cost of tube IF she provided specific test results that she now concedes she could not have made (you don't mention any test results in her listing). However, I'm not sure the NOS designation has been violated regardless of the operational condition of the tube. Unless you can prove it's not New (from Old Stock), I'm not sure you have a case.
  
 Also, you don't mention what the seller's stated return policy was. I usually look at that pretty carefully before I buy.
   
Finally, I don't think you can ask a seller to wait indefinitely for you to test the tube in operation. I think it is usually fair for a seller to assume the buyer will be able to determine if the item works or not soon after it is received.

  
 Hopefully someone will respond to you that has had actual experiencing with attempting to return an Ebay item.


----------



## mordy

Thanks for your answer.
  
 The tube is listed as measuring 96%. As far as I know NOS means 100% or more.
  
 The return policy is stated - the buyer pays return postage.
  
 It seems to me that the tube was misrepresented with measurements that were done decades ago and made to sound as recent.
  
 Obviously the main point of leverage is the feedback - this seller has 100% feedback out of 700 with four neutrals and no negatives.
  
 I'll wait and see until it arrives.


----------



## Spork67

pctazhp said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi pct,
> ...


 
 http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/feedback/questions/leave.html
  
 You have 60 days (used to be 90) to leave feedback on ebay.
 I'd tell the seller she will have to wait a little while until you can test / use the tube as, like her, you also have no way RIGHT NOW of knowing if tube was a dud or not.
 I'd be most surprised if she was not happy to wait a month-ish for you to test and leave +ve feedback, or for you to contact her to request a refund if the tube is a dud.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Thanks for your answer.
> 
> The tube is listed as measuring 96%. As far as I know NOS means 100% or more.
> 
> ...


 

 I believe NOS means the tube comes from old stock but has never been used. I don't think it implies a particular test result. However, she did expressly represent a test result, but from her email to you it seems she had no way to test it, as she said her tester is broken. Seems to me that's a misrepresentation you could use as a basis for returning the tube and requesting a refund if you wanted. Because of the misrepresentation seems to me she should pay the return shipping. But this is just the lawyer in my talking and my comments may not be of any practical help. Good luck)))


----------



## pctazhp

I have a personal opinion regarding negative feedback I'd like to share. Fortunately, I've never been at a point where I needed to consider negative feedback for an Ebay seller, or for that matter (to the best of my memory) any seller. But if I had a problem with a seller I would consider negative feedback (particularly for a seller who had a high or perfect rating) as an absolute last resort. Negative feedback could possibly permanently affect that seller's livelihood. If I felt I had to do something, I would far rather give a seller a chance to refund the purchase price and shipping or otherwise make the transaction right than leave negative feedback.


----------



## HOWIE13

@mordy
  
 Hi Mordy. Well as the person designated to keep everyone serious and caring about tubes, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would just let the seller know it will be a wee while before you can test the tube as you are waiting for adapters but from her description you would expect it to at least work properly. If not, you would anticipate a refund of all costs. In the circumstance of the tube being 'unfit for purpose' I would expect the seller to pay for return postage, if not eBay should step in on your behalf.
  
 However, in my experience where an occasional tube has failed the seller has always asked me to bin the tube. 
  
 Incidently, I usually take seller measurements with a large 'pinch of salt' anyway.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys - if you're wondering why I haven't been around lately it's because some nomadic pygmies scavenged rare parts from my Elise, trying to churn a profit in the black market... or is it just late here and that was a figment of my imagination, LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway just a couple random pointers -
  
 * The other day I gave a go for EL11's with low power drivers such as 6SN7 briefly (3.6ah of 6.8 current draw). This resulted in a huge channel imbalance with low gain, and upon turning off the lights, sure enough it seemed to have been starting to 'kill' one of my EL11's as one of them was lit much darker than the other. Amazingly however, after returning these EL11's to the drivers seat where they belong with proper powers, they managed to equalize and return back to normal a few minutes later... Just a word of caution folks because when it comes to using tubes with _too low_ of power consumption, _it's the tubes you're hurting_ rather than the Elise, and I for one wouldn't want a humongous pop that can blow out my driver and/or hearing, or broken glass. So it seems that not only can tubes that consume too much power hurt the Elise, but a low-rated consumption tube can also be damaged if also paired with low consumption tubes.
  
 * Miraculously I had fixed my HD-650 that I thought was dying on one channel due to distortion.. I can't believe I'm saying this... all I had to do was detach, reverse and replace again the cables attached to the cans and WALA! Sometimes a loose connection to headphones can actually cause distortion too!


----------



## Spork67

Glad to hear the 650's were such an easy fix.
 Guess that's why every piece of any electronic troubleshooting anywhere, ever, starts with "turn it off, unplug it, plug it back in, turn it back on".


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> The tube is listed as measuring 96%. As far as I know NOS means 100% or more.
> 
> It seems to me that the tube was misrepresented with measurements that were done decades ago and made to sound as recent.






 _NOS_ means _new old stock_ where
 _new_ means unused and
 _old stock_ means that it's been sitting on a shelf for quite a while.

Sitting on a shelf doesn't wear out a tube (most of the time anyway). The measurement could still be entirely valid but the actual numbers don't mean much anyway and the numbers are comparable only if taken with the same tester or well-calibrated same-model testers. Still, not all tubes measure the same, unused tubes can measure lower than usual.




> I'll wait and see until it arrives.




Yeah. It either works or it doesn't. There's not much else to it (unless you have a tester of your own, and even then).


----------



## DecentLevi

spork67 said:


> Glad to hear the 650's were such an easy fix.
> Guess that's why every piece of any electronic troubleshooting anywhere, ever, starts with "turn it off, unplug it, plug it back in, turn it back on".


 
 that's TOO true, and as dumb as this may paint me, THAT is also how I've been able to 'fix' other tube, amp, etc. problems before also. Though I know more 'under the hood' fixes too.
  
 Also I'm getting closer to going Euforia and posted there - check out the thread
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing


----------



## UntilThen

It's a startling revelation for me when I realise that I prefer 6SN7 and EL12N over EL11 and Bendix 6080wb.
  
 6SN7 and EL12N provides crystal clear, neutral and detailed sonics to my Panda ears. 
  
 Now this might change when I'm able to listen to EL11 and EL12N together. It might change too when the RFT EL12 and Telefunken EL12 arrives.


----------



## vl4dimir

Can you guys give me a quick comparaison of what I can expect between EL11/EL3N while usine EL12N as power in the back ? Don't want a "bright/analytical" sound 
  
 I'll be using only the HD650


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Can you guys give me a quick comparaison of what I can expect between EL11/EL3N while usine EL12N as power in the back ? Don't want a "bright/analytical" sound
> 
> I'll be using only the HD650


 
 I can't because I have only one pair of EL11 / EL12 to 6sn7 adapters at the moment. @HOWIE13 and @DecentLevi will be able to tell you that but I think they have already given their impressions couple of pages back.
  
 I wouldn't classify EL11 as bright and analytical. There's more clarity and details than EL3N but EL3N has a warmer and lusher tone. EL11 soundstage has more depth while EL3N has more width. It's all relative between the 2 tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I can't because I have only one pair of EL11 / EL12 to 6sn7 adapters at the moment. @HOWIE13 and @DecentLevi will be able to tell you that but I think they have already given their impressions couple of pages back.
> 
> I wouldn't classify EL11 as bright and analytical. There's more clarity and details than EL3N but EL3N has a warmer and lusher tone. EL11 soundstage has more depth while EL3N has more width. It's all relative between the 2 tubes.


 
  
 That's it in a nutshell.
  
@vl4dimir
 With EL12 powers, EL11 drivers are more detailed, dynamic and with more extended treble compared to EL3N's, but it's always sweet treble, not bright, harsh or grainy, to my ears. Bass is also better defined and articulate. 
 If your ears are particularly sensitive to treble with your HD650, or you just prefer a warmer, lusher, voluptuous sound, the EL3N driver may suit you better.
 For me, personally, with my HD650, I prefer the EL12/11 combo-but that's just me.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> That's it in a nutshell.


 
 Seriously why would Shakespeare coin that phrase 'in a nutshell'.
  
 He could have said, 'In a cupcake' or 'In a tube amp'


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> If your ears are particularly sensitive to treble with your HD650, or you just prefer a warmer, lusher, voluptuous sound, the EL3N driver may suit you better.


 
 It's hard to imagine anyone being sensitive to treble with their HD650 but that's another story.
  
 I'm listening to EL3N and EL12N now with T1. If we didn't discover EL11, I'd probably be raving about this combo. Who could resist voluptuous sound. EL12N brightens up the resultant tone.
  
 Edit: 'If @hypnos1 didn't discover EL11'


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Seriously why would Shakespeare coin that phrase 'in a nutshell'.
> 
> He could have said, 'In a cupcake' or 'In a tube amp'


 
  
 Never thought about that but here's a link-don't think they had tube amps in ancient times- 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/in-a-nutshell.html


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> It's hard to imagine anyone being sensitive to treble with their HD650 but that's another story.
> 
> I'm listening to EL3N and EL12N now with T1. If we didn't discover EL11, I'd probably be raving about this combo. Who could resist voluptuous sound. EL12N brightens up the resultant tone.
> 
> Edit: 'If @hypnos1 didn't discover EL11'


 
 I was listening to some piano solos with EL12 powers and EL3N drivers, also with my T1,  (generation 2), and was similarly very impressed with the sound.


----------



## DavidA

some nice piano music:


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA that is a great way to wake up, with coffee and freezing rain, well the coffee any way. Piano has always been my favorite musical instrument. Very laid back and relaxing Thank you sir.


----------



## pctazhp

I'm back, but have nothing of value (or no-value) to say. So I don't even know why I'm posting. That's about it in a cupcake for me for now.


----------



## vl4dimir

Got these today from the post RFT,tested,100%,pair 68ma+71ma. I paid like 25€. Is it the right ones ? (and is the price fair ?) thanks, still trying to read as much I can but don't really have time & i'm not know for being very patient


----------



## connieflyer

I really liked the song Winter Sonata that @DavidA posted and found the English subtitle, I liked the emotion in her voice, and now with the words, that much more enjoyable.l\


----------



## pctazhp

@DavidA and @connieflyer. Winter Sonata is so lovely. Thanks. Unfortunately, while I was watching it I saw the Bellamy Brother's video "If I Say You Have a Beautiful Body Would You Hold It Against Me" But I'll refrain from posting it. Instead, I offer this repeat video, which I love.


----------



## connieflyer

Love Ray's jacket!


----------



## HOWIE13

vl4dimir said:


> Got these today from the post RFT,tested,100%,pair 68ma+71ma. I paid like 25€. Is it the right ones ? (and is the price fair ?) thanks, still trying to read as much I can but don't really have time & i'm not know for being very patient


 
  
 Yes-I have those too and very fair price.


----------



## mordy

Price seems very fair, but in all fairness, to get the whole picture, I would like to see the total price including shipping - at times it makes a big difference.
  
 Pulled the trigger on the the new Euforia - my inv# is 100.


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Price seems very fair, but in all fairness, to get the whole picture, I would like to see the total price including shipping - at times it makes a big difference.
> 
> Pulled the trigger on the the new Euforia - my inv# is 100.


 
 Still same problem as with the Elise damm exchange rate and duty's brings the Euforia in to the $2,000.00 range


----------



## DavidA

This was one of the biggest hits about 9-10 years ago, a bit sad but the melodies are so nice:

  
 The girl who wrote the song grew up in the US, NY IIRC.  This song got so popular its been translated in to many languages.


----------



## angpsi

Anyone with deep pockets interested in these? http://www.ebay.com/itm/142248071455


----------



## vl4dimir

mordy said:


> Price seems very fair, but in all fairness, to get the whole picture, I would like to see the total price including shipping - at times it makes a big difference.
> 
> Pulled the trigger on the the new Euforia - my inv# is 100.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Those cracked bases apparently aren't unusual, and should be a good bargaining point - has no effect on utility and sound.
  




  
 I think that Gibosi paid a fraction of that price for this one.


----------



## connieflyer

Way overpriced for that kind of tube for that kind of money they would have to be brand new new in box no problem never been seen by human eyes


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Anyone with deep pockets interested in these? http://www.ebay.com/itm/142248071455


 
 I don't have them but I've heard them. Big, big sound, exciting -but overly bright for my ears and very microphonic. Purchase with care. Seller does have a return policy though.
 In my view there is better for much less money, for me anyway.


----------



## DecentLevi

angpsi said:


> Anyone with deep pockets interested in these? http://www.ebay.com/itm/142248071455


 
 I've already got a rare pair of Sylv. 6SN7W in great condition, same except for black base. I keep it on my desk in case any good matches are found, but 90% of the time I want a 6SN7, either the Ken-Rad VT-231 or 'Bad Boys' seem to fit the bill better sonically.
  
 Well I'm now I'm too locked in for a Euforia... new year, new amp... hey this is Head-Fi where things are in constant flux.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
 PS - Though I for one can't go without my Elise while waiting... don't know how any of you do it.


----------



## Jozurr

decentlevi said:


> I've already got a rare pair of Sylv. 6SN7W in great condition, same except for black base. I keep it on my desk in case any good matches are found, but 90% of the time I want a 6SN7, either the Ken-Rad VT-231 or 'Bad Boys' seem to fit the bill better sonically.
> 
> Well I'm now I'm too locked in for a Euforia... new year, new amp... hey this is Head-Fi where things are in constant flux.:rolleyes:
> PS - Though I for one can't go without my Elise while waiting... don't know how any of you do it.




How do you like your ken rad vt231 vs the el3n?


----------



## angpsi

Gonna sit this one out - looks likely that the asking price is raised exactly because the seller expects bargaining. Besides I got a lot of listening to do with my yet-to-arrive EL11s plus adapters (anytime now, getting restless). Thanks for sharing the knowledge @mordy, @connieflyer, @HOWIE13, and @DecentLevi, l'll always enjoy an education coming from you guys and I advise lurking readers to do so too!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Way overpriced for that kind of tube for that kind of money they would have to be brand new new in box no problem never been seen by human eyes


 

 None of my tubes have ever been seen by human eyes.


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp I would probably agree with you, if you were the only one that has seen them!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp I would probably agree with you, if you were the only one that has seen them!


 

 I am.


----------



## connieflyer

A VERY good likeness.  And since it is early and no one around, just wondering if Leonard Cohen would like this version of Hallelujah


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> A VERY good likeness.  And since it is early and no one around, just wondering if Leonard Cohen would like this version of Hallelujah


 
 I like it a lot.
  
 I've been listening to EL11/Bendix6080 for last several days. No desire to switch to anything else for right now.
  
 How is life without Elise???


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> None of my tubes have ever been seen by human eyes.


 
  


connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp I would probably agree with you, if you were the only one that has seen them!


 

 ​Guys, i'm really buzzed and your post just made my night, working on my 7th cosmo


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> ​Guys, i'm really buzzed and your post just made my night, working on my 7th cosmo


 

 Glad to hear David. I'm working on my 7th attempt of the morning to find my kitchen so I can get some coffee. As I say in just about every other post, it's an Old Geezer thing


----------



## connieflyer

Life without Elise is very boring. Especially since it's boxed up here waiting for the final okay to ship from PayPal. Makes me think I should have waited until I had that before I boxed her up. But I can still blast the speaker's out and just rock my full mind apart. The neighbors are really liking this. I told one of them if he had any requests for music to let me know and I try to help out.


----------



## connieflyer

I resemble that remark. Knock it off. On my way to the post office to deal with government bureaucrats with Customs forms that cannot be filled out because the weight of the object does not compute. Stupid


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I resemble that remark. Knock it off. On my way to the post office to deal with government bureaucrats with Customs forms that cannot be filled out because the weight of the object does not compute. Stupid


 

 Good luck. You'll need it ((((
  
 I think we need to instill some military discipline in @DavidA's life . Even if he s getting ready to go to sleep for the "night", he should be listening to this:


----------



## DavidA

@pctazhp, i worked for the militay for 30 years, LOL.  I learned a little disipline, girl or girls always comes first, red wine is preferred over white, and its better or easier to ask for forgivness than ask for permission.
  
 Not getting ready to sleep, yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, still thinking of my midnight snack since I couldn't find anything to go with a cosmo and Sophia wanted something to go with sake.


----------



## connieflyer

@DavidA Great answer!  Always believed the one about asking forgivness in stead of permission. And as mom always said women and ladies first!


----------



## DecentLevi

So incoming today was a very rare pair of ST shaped Valvo EL12/375 DDED tubes - tested, packaged and looking great. But much to my dismay, one of the two tubes did not light up. Strangely though the one in question did in fact get _hotter_ than the one which was lit up, especially in a focused point towards the middle of the top. I didn't audition the one in question, as I've found it wiser to unplug your headphones while rolling antique tubes for the first time, just in case something unexpected should arise. 
  
 I did however audition the one which lit up (as powers) paired with my EL12N, and after fixing the channel imbalance it did seem to have a superior sound from that one channel, with better bass perhaps - yet it also introduced a slight hum.
  
 Granted these were both tested in Ms. Xuling's EL11 adapters rev. 1 which don't allow tubes to make perfect contact, but I did try it with all four adapters and even at a slight angle, but still no lighting up here. @hypnos1 would you say this is a dud tube, or is there any hope with it? I would be afraid to use it if it's hotter but without light, and I'm leery of sanding down the guide pin length (which is quite long actually) for fear of voiding a possible refund on eBay... and it was a somewhat hefty bill too.
  
 I do have my four replacement EL11 adapters on the way from Xuling, but it will probably take a few more weeks.
  
 PS- the tube contacts are shiny and clean as a whistle


----------



## DecentLevi

jozurr said:


> How do you like your ken rad vt231 vs the el3n?


 
 OK I've just done a comparison of these four driver pairs for you, all using the same power tubes (GEC 6AS7G which are actually fairly linear/neutral) and the same songs:
  
 * Ken-Rad VT-231 (also 6SN7): very refined, linear, proper, neutral. Bass is quite spot on, silky and perfecto
 * Sylvania 6SN7 GT "Bad Boys": slightly more extruded soundstage and a touch more intimacy / presence, with fairly inflated bass
 * Sylvania 6SN7 W ("chrome dome", short bottle): sounds about the same as the VT-231, yet slightly less refined and bass seems off kilter / boomy
 * EL3N: much darker / slower, meaning strong bass emphasis and reduced highs, softer dynamics, yet much more sense of vividness / soundstage
  
 This was only a brief test, IMO, and is not the 'final word', as a change of variables such as headphones, source tracks and gear can make a difference
  
 I would strongly recommend the VT-231 6SN7's out of the above. There are several brands that make them, and as far as I know they all sound similar.
  
 However, also IMO, none of the above drivers are even in the same league as the miniature Tungsram E80CC or Holy Grail 1975 Reflektor CCCP 6N23P "Single Wire Silver Shield" drivers that I now also own, which I'm still testing... the latter two pairs being more controlled, airy and true to life, and especially the 6N23P has probably the purest bass I've heard from any tube, for starters. These two both use a simple ECC88 to 6SN7 adapter.


----------



## Jozurr

decentlevi said:


> OK I've just done a comparison of these four driver pairs for you, all using the same power tubes (GEC 6AS7G which are actually fairly linear/neutral) and the same songs:
> 
> * Ken-Rad VT-231 (also 6SN7): very refined, linear, proper, neutral. Bass is quite spot on, silky and perfecto
> * Sylvania 6SN7 GT "Bad Boys": slightly more extruded soundstage and a touch more intimacy / presence, with fairly inflated bass
> ...




Thanks for the comparison.

However the 6SN7 VT-231 sounding similar is as far from truth as it can be. The VT-231 by Sylvania for example are considered bass shy, whereas the Kenrads are considerd to have the best bass. The RCA VT231 are considered very euphonic/tube sounding. I own all of these, amongst various other 6SN7 types. Im looking forward to compare them to the EL3N/EL11 some time.

Also, any link how to identify the reflektors and buy them from? whats a good price for them?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> OK I've just done a comparison of these four driver pairs for you, all using the same power tubes (GEC 6AS7G which are actually fairly linear/neutral) and the same songs:
> 
> * Ken-Rad VT-231 (also 6SN7): very refined, linear, proper, neutral. Bass is quite spot on, silky and perfecto
> * Sylvania 6SN7 GT "Bad Boys": slightly more extruded soundstage and a touch more intimacy / presence, with fairly inflated bass
> ...


 
  
 In the last two days I have had EXACTLY the same problem with TWO coke bottle shaped EL12 tubes-one a Telefunken and one a Valvo. The tubes looked fine, no loose base and cleaned the pins. Good fit in adapters which work fine with all my other EL11/12 tubes, but no sound and no glow-but the tube gets warm. With one there was an initial buzzing noise for a few moments, then nothing.
 I don't know what the problem is with these coke bottle shaped EL12 tubes. I do have one other, a Siemens, which sounds fine.
 I've never had a problem from any coke bottle shaped EL11 or straight bottle EL12.
  
 Incidently, the VT231 nomenclature on 6SN7 tubes  only tells you a tube was made between around 1940-1945, during WW2 and as Jozurr has posted, they can all sound very different.


----------



## DecentLevi

Sorry, so tired in between shifts now I don't have any time for words about its' sound, however will post a few links. From owning thee pairs and from in-depth research, I have become a bit of an expert on how to spot the genuine Reflektor "Single Wire Silver Shield" 6N23P holy grail version. It's all about the top section with the single wire leading to a sort of saucer and a CCCP logo on the side with a star, you can see on these photos below, and here. 
  
  
  
  
 Also you can read the impressions of it here. I paid $199 for my pair. Here and here are two links to genuine looking pairs available from $129 - $185 - though none seem to be available from 1975 I believe 1974 should be every bit as good as it's identical. I will tell you for sure though these are not the "bright" version UT was talking about! So linear and resolving!!
  
 While we're on the topic, Tungsram E80CC are still available for around $40. These two are the best out of about 8 top ranked miniature drivers I've tried, and both pair well with all powers I've tried them with including EL12, except quad EL3N. Generally they are slightly more 'front row' and have better bass quality than the Telefunken EL11's (IMO), but either EL11 or these are preferable drivers depending on the music.


----------



## DecentLevi

EDIT I misspoke, E80CC uses the 12AV7 adapter


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 I have two pairs of 1974 Voskhod 6N23P tubes - paid $8/pair shipped. They are single wire gray plates (not silver). They do have a well defined bass, but in my system many other tubes sound better.
  
 Re the EL12 tubes it is worrisome that already two people have trouble with them. Is it possible that they can test OK even if they don't produce any sound? From the descriptions it seems that they get warm but nothing more than that.


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Still same problem as with the Elise damm exchange rate and duty's brings the Euforia in to the $2,000.00 range


 
  
 Hi MIKELAP...yeah, that sure is one SOB lol...would love to see you over at the Euforia thread - (got no smuggling friends?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)...
  
 ps. Hope you're keeping well...long time since LD days! (Those were real good days too!... Miss 'em...[Audiofanboy, Acapella 11 etc.etc.]. But at least some have made it here - _*and*_ over to Euforia! - and will be meeting up with A11 once again at our local meet in April...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!
  


mordy said:


> Hi DL,
> 
> I have two pairs of 1974 Voskhod 6N23P tubes - paid $8/pair shipped. They are single wire gray plates (not silver). They do have a well defined bass, but in my system many other tubes sound better.
> 
> Re the EL12 tubes it is worrisome that already two people have trouble with them. Is it possible that they can test OK even if they don't produce any sound? From the descriptions it seems that they get warm but nothing more than that.


 
  
 Yo, mordy, I myself moved on from top-tier Voskhods many moons ago with the LittleDot...I've no desire whatsoever to go _*backwards*_ in this game lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And oh yes...I've had several tubes that "tested OK" and were dead as Dodos when put in the amp!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.But I confess to still being somewhat concerned by these early experiences with the ST 12s...I really do hope that they are indeed simply coincidental "very bad luck"...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...shall be adapting one very soon, and keeping fingers crossed!...


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Still same problem as with the Elise damm exchange rate and duty's brings the Euforia in to the $2,000.00 range
> ...


 
 Thanks for the offer ill be lurking around for sure


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Thanks for the offer ill be lurking around for sure


 
  
 Lurk all you like, M...who knows, perhaps one day Canada will go tax-free...er sorry, jusy one of those "senior" moments lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but we all live in hope!! Whatever...


----------



## Jozurr

mordy said:


> Hi DL,
> 
> I have two pairs of 1974 Voskhod 6N23P tubes - paid $8/pair shipped. They are single wire gray plates (not silver). They do have a well defined bass, but in my system many other tubes sound better.
> 
> Re the EL12 tubes it is worrisome that already two people have trouble with them. Is it possible that they can test OK even if they don't produce any sound? From the descriptions it seems that they get warm but nothing more than that.


 
  
 What tubes do you think sound better?


----------



## mordy

Hi Jozurr,
  
 I appreciate your question. My answer about the 6N23P "peanut" tubes was based on previous experiences with the Little Dot MIII and the Elise, using the stock Svetlana power tubes.
  
 You have to be honest.
  
 It dawned upon me that I did not pair the 6N23P with the heavy weight champions that I since acquired - the GEC 6AS7, the Tung Sol 5998 and the BENDIX 6080WB.
  
 For reference, my present setup that I am very happy with is the TS5998 and the RCA 6SN7GTB with the horizontal top heater wire (not shown).
  

  

  
  
 Tried the 6N23P with the TS 5998 and the GEC 6AS7 and was very pleasantly surprised - it sounded very good. In comparison with the 5998/6SN7 combo it is more analytic with a very slight sibilance in the treble - not as sweet as the TS5998/RCA 6SN7 combination, but I could understand that in certain system and with certain tastes it may be preferred by some - it is that good. It seems to accentuate the details more than the combinations with the RCAs.
  
 The GEC with 6N23P is sweeter than with the TS5998, but both combinations have good synergy. The 6N23P only draws 0.31A - maybe this accounts for that I have to crank up the volume more than the 6SN7.
  
_I wasn't going to try the Bendix 6080WB because I haven't spent so much time with it, but decided to give them a go now._
  
 SURPRISE!!!  This is easily the best pairing with the 6N23P. WOW! Punch, dynamics, impact, involvement, timbre - can't believe this....Clarity, great instrument separation, tube warmth, great FR across, very natural vocals, first row seating
  
 I am sorry pct and h1, we are not supposed to get overly enthusiastic and superlative on this balanced, objective and scientific thread - people may not believe what you write if you get carried away. But this combo is WORLD CLASS!
  

 Got to give this combo more time and see if it withstands the first impression. But it is truly impressive so far.
   
 

  
 PS: In my system I also like the EL3N and RCA 6SN7GTB as above as driver tubes. Another great choice is the Mazda/Visseux 6N7G, Cannot comment yet on the wunder kind EL11, but I am in the process of acquiring them.


----------



## pctazhp

@mordy.  Your reporting and photography IS WORLD CLASS)))


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Thanks for the kind words. It is now the second day with the Voskhod 6N23P/Bendix 6080 and I am just sitting here smiling. I love the fat mid bass and the great clarity, detail and warmth.


----------



## DecentLevi

Great Mordy, I'm glad I've inspired you to try these miniatures on the Elise. Now from your recent enthusiasm, I've just done a more thorough comparison of the 6N23P (as drivers) with all my favorite power tubes, and have a few very interesting finds to share.
  
_Note however my 6N23P is different than Mordy's - I have the 'holy grail' 1975 "Single Wire Silver Shield" Reflektor version, and his is the 1974 Voshkod version with grey shields._
_mentioned at end of previous page_
  
 Here are brief sonic descriptions I found when of the first few power tubes I paired them with:
  
 Mullard 6080 -   vivid / lush yet somehow MIA (missing in action)
 RCA 6080 -       proper FR yet somewhat slow and MIA
 Tung Sol 7236 - dynamic with crisp bass but has mid-treble hump
 GEC 6080 -       too bright
 Bendix 6080 -   refined and crisp but somehow MIA in a way that's hard to define
 GEC 6AS7G -    splendid refinement with excellent imaging, voicing, FR, instrument separation, pleasing dynamics and quite organic
 Quad EL3N -     humongous soundstage, fairly organic, somewhat dark
  
 In my testing it has become clear that this 6N23P version has an uncanny way of showing the 'true character' of any power tube. Every description above are what I would expect to hear from these tubes, just accented in a way that brings out more of what was already there for better or worse. That would be interesting someday to hear these on their own as well. Also the fact that my Bendix are the slotted graphite plate version, along with my 6N23P tubes being a different version, and the fact that he was using this with speakers, may account for difference of Mordy's preference to the Bendix pairing... now onto the best pairings...
  
RFT EL12N + Reflektor 6N23P
  
 
  
 Folks, this is a breathtaking pairing on Elise. Enough impact to stop a car, surreal enough to wake someone up from a coma, immaculate 'air', and completely boundless energy!!!
 Call it the "Elise on adrenaline". Dynamics have amazing 'bite' and drums are as clear as I've ever heard at home. Piano notes sound as if you were there, voices sound as if they're in your ear - very organic. Layers as if they are each laid out in a very coherent and orderly fashion, and I hear the "entire recording" as if I am the mastering engineer... also somewhat "front row".
  
 These were my initial impressions, but as I continued trying out different tracks I noticed two drawbacks of this pairing: slightly bright and has a channel imbalance.
 I had gotten between a 10-20% lower volume on the left channel, even when switching around the power and driver tubes from R/L, that was not there with other drivers with the same songs. It's extremely peculiar because neither these powers or drivers alone exhibited an imbalance until paired together, and swapping orientations changed very little. Probably however 'darker', more closely matched EL12 tubes could solve those two setbacks.
  
 Next I compared it to the RFT EL12N + Telefunken EL11 to which I generally preferred the above better. The EL11+12 combo sounded more laid back with reduced bass, larger soundstage, more 'presence' and slightly more organic - yet the EL12 + 6N23P combo had improved PRaT, bass definition and dynamics. Picking a winner here largely depends on the recording, but I got a sense that the EL12 + 6N23P was somewhat more refined especially for rhythmic music. _(though still not 'perfect' for reasons listed above)_
  
 Next up was Tung Sol 5998 + Reflektor 6N23P
  

  
 This pairing is actually very similar in sound to the RFT EL12 combo being also very organic and dynamic but slightly more 'liquid' and ever so slightly brighter so it's excellent for 'dark' recordings. The EL12 combo on the other hand had slightly more 'bite' and realism.
  
 I also sometimes still prefer these with GEC 6AS7G, depending on the recording.
  
_Also note Mordy and I were using 6CG7 adapters, but either these or ECC88 adapters will work._
  
 PS- the two pairs I linked to on the last page which are identical to these 'holy grail' versions are still available at a decent price, if anyone else is interested in these little gems


----------



## connieflyer

Here we go again. OTT, when will it end.


----------



## hypnos1

*AN IMPORTANT NOTICE!!!*
  
 Hi guys. For the moment at least, until I've adapted my own "Coke Bottle" ST EL12 tubes, I *strongly advise* you *NOT *to bother trying them...yet another tube has been found not to work in Elise, even though NOS.
  
 As I mentioned previously, I had early suspicions re. the suitability of this tube and issued advisories to be CAREFUL...especially until I myself had thoroughly tested them and checked with F-A.
  
@HOWIE13 wisely followed my advice and discontinued using and recommending this tube. @DecentLevi, however, continued to state his belief that there seemed "no problem with Elise", which (once again) I found rather irresponsible....when trying non-stock configuration tubes we should _*always*_ err on the side of _*caution*_...anything else is unacceptable IMHO.
  
 Even _*if*_ this tube is of itself actually suitable, the number of failures already indicates that it cannot be safely trusted or, therefore, recommended....especially given their cost lol!! And even if my own ends up OK, _*I MYSELF SHALL THEREFORE NOT BE RECOMMENDING THIS TUBE.*_
  
 However, the _straight_ glass EL12*N* appears to be working fine according to others but again, I haven't yet conducted my own personal trials.
  
 And so I can only ask folks to _*please*_ heed my warnings until there is no doubt whatsoever about the 'alternative' tubes that are tried in Elise...(and this will apply _*ESPECIALLY *_to the new Euforia LOL!!).


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 I was definitively inspired by your review to try the 6N23P tubes from the 6DJ8 family.
  
 It appears to me that our descriptions are fairly similar of how they sound, notwithstanding that mine were made by Voskhod (correct spelling, people often write Voshkod since it is easier to pronounce) and yours by Reflektor.
  
 On the Little Dot thread people singled out the 1975 versions as the best, but I could only get 1974 tubes at the price I wanted at the time I was looking.
  
 Re plates/shields in the tubes I am only aware of five kinds: Black, gray, silver, bronze and graphite (not speaking about shapes). Regarding the first three, I was never able to find any reason why one would be better than the other. Sometimes sellers push for certain things that they (only) have stock of. Bronze plates are not common, and the graphite plates appeared in the late era tubes made for missiles.
  
 It seems to me that if you get 6N23P tubes from the 70's, they should all sound very good, There are plenty of them available. Mine were listed as slightly used which doesn't bother me with a 5000 hour life.
  
 Regarding the imbalance it could possibly be traced to the two halves of the dual triode measuring very different - but I am only guessing. The main thing with the 6N23P seems to be the synergy with the power tubes.
  
 After listening for a longer time to the 6N23P, paired with the right power tubes, has to be considered a top tier driver tube in the Elise.


----------



## DecentLevi

Wow I didn't realise it could have been four pairs or ST-EL12's that didn't work out. So I also shall not be recommending those tubes even if my last trial works out. But any wording of "no problem" using these on the Elise would have been a misunderstanding.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Wow I didn't realise it could have been four pairs or ST-EL12's that didn't work out. So I also shall not be recommending those tubes even if my last trial works out. *But any wording of "no problem" using these on the Elise would have been a misunderstanding.*


 
  
 Sorry DL...there's *no* "misunderstanding" of your words on the Euforia thread, and I quote : "To me it would not seem to be a problem with ST-shaped EL12s with Elise". A very premature statement, to say the least I'm afraid.... I repeat, *please* take more care with such statements before _*proper*_ evaluation has taken place with tubes that differ from stock configuration!


----------



## DecentLevi

My initial statement that the problem seemed more likely the tube rather than the Elise could have been premature, and I have since mentioned it could be either one until the cause is ruled out.
  
 I for one, would very much applaud a thread where differences of opinion, or even false theories would be dealt with in a more dignified and civil manner. H1 granted you have been fairly professional, but the way you come across makes me feel unnecessarily singled out and under attack.
  
 I'm not going to drag this debate out any longer until after more proper evaluation if any, but am just mentioning this so that hopefully we (myself included) can exercise more restraint and tolerance with other forum members... without resorting to derogatory words like "irresponsible" and "unacceptable".
  
 From Head-Fi TOS (click here)
 #1: "*Be polite*. *We encourage debating* in the forums, _*but avoid defamatory statements, personal attacks*..."_


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> My initial statement that the problem seemed more likely the tube rather than the Elise could have been premature, and I have since mentioned it could be either one until the cause is ruled out.
> 
> I for one, would very much applaud a thread where differences of opinion, or even false theories would be dealt with in a more dignified and civil manner. H1 granted you have been fairly professional, but the way you come across makes me feel unnecessarily singled out and under attack.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Please DL, when you're call out for the things you do, do not turn it around like you're the victim by claiming that H1 use derogatory words like 'irresponsible' and 'unacceptable' on you unjustifiably. 
  
 The best you can do now is to back off and chill. No one targets anyone unnecessary, least of all H1. He has gone out of his way to help others.


----------



## connieflyer

THis is your doing, you constantly give advice that is unfounded and dangerous to the safe operation of the amp.  Your over the top characterization of the different tube combos, is constantly at odds with the normal way of testing, you simply play a couple songs, switch tubes and then same few tunes, switch tubes ad infinitum, with out long term testing, then coming up with a list of rankings. I am sure that those with some knowledge are not taken in by this behavoiur, but people without a lot of experience may follow some of your suggestions and get into trouble. You have already destroyed one amp with your careless experimentation, going against the manufacturers guide lines of total amp draw, as you figure they allowed extra room in the rating, so it must be okay to go higher.@hypnos1 has tried to bring you the understanding of your actions, and you don't listen. He has been more than fair with you, and patient. He has always tried to be helpful with anyone that asks advice or council ,  he is not the problem. I am telling you this as I have nothing to lose. If you want respect here and anywhere else in life, you have to give it as well, H1 has tried to help you see, and it looks like you take his advice, oh for maybe at most a day and then you start back in . I have flagged your comments and await the moderators decision. Hopefully we can all just get along, a little understanding goes along way, but it has to be both ways.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> My initial statement that the problem seemed more likely the tube rather than the Elise could have been premature, and I have since mentioned it could be either one until the cause is ruled out.
> 
> I for one, would very much applaud a thread where differences of opinion, or even false theories would be dealt with in a more dignified and civil manner. H1 granted you have been fairly professional, but the way you come across makes me feel unnecessarily singled out and under attack.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry DL....but head-fi also do not countenance statements/behaviour that have the potential to cause harm or damage to either equipment or owners....and which are indeed "irresponsible" and "unacceptable". I have not had cause to address other members about such issues simply because you yourself have been the only one who has consistently chosen not to heed the advice of either myself or other senior members here, and cannot in all honesty therefore constitute "defamatory statements or personal attacks" as your defence.


----------



## Frederick Rea

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry DL....but head-fi also do not countenance statements/behaviour that have the potential to cause harm or damage to either equipment or owners....and which are indeed "irresponsible" and "unacceptable". I have not had cause to address other members about such issues simply because you yourself have been the only one who has consistently chosen not to heed the advice of either myself or other senior members here, and cannot in all honesty therefore constitute "defamatory statements or personal attacks" as your defence.




Hey DL
supose there were not any advise on a VERY irresponsible and unacceptable advises like yours, what would happened to ALL newbyes and there systems?
Yes it is pressure of some to make you understand that killing amps are not the main subject of this thread


----------



## Frederick Rea

Point my thoughts in a nutshell
  
 DL
 ​It not a personnal problem. You are welcome
 From my point of view, this thread serves to achieve greater perfection in sound to our ears and our system, helping to AVOID any mistake made by ignorance from the point of view of using the equipment. Correct errors in use, improving synergy is our focus (according to my own way of interpreting)
 As for the problem of DL, it is more a problem of lack of credibility in the use of hardware, trying to emit connoisseurs thinking’s but with the mistakes of a beginner. There is no harm in being a beginner nor these have been set aside (on the contrary) but the teachings here are going to avoid steps of mistakes including the possibility of darkening the image of the Amp itself


----------



## pctazhp

I got back from Boston late last night and am just catching up with things here. Even though I post a lot of silly stuff, I do try to keep in mind how my posts may affect the experience of newcomers and the general reputation of Elise. I therefore wholeheartedly support the recent comments here regarding unfortunate advice that is given on safe operation of Elise.
  
 Regarding OTT, I find it completely unhelpful. It doesn't provide me any information by which I can place the particular tube or combo in context with other tubes and combos other people have described, let alone other tubes and combos the particular poster has described. If that were the extent of it, I could just ignore such posts as merely ego driven. But I fear OTT tarnishes the reputation of Elise and of this thread.


----------



## HPLobster

I have finally settled on a headphone for my -soon to become reality- new desktop-rig. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 After some long and serious listening sessions, it´s going to be the Sennheiser HD 800 in the end (I personally found the "classic" version to be actually superiour over the 800 S, but that´s probably a matter to be discussed somewhere else...). 
 Right now I am feeling like a 8-year-old counting the hours till his birthday next week... Lukasz said my Elise will be delivered within the first two weeks of February 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   
  
 Can´t wait to finally connect everything together and post about the Elise-revelation!


----------



## MIKELAP

hplobster said:


> I have finally settled on a headphone for my -soon to become reality- new desktop-rig.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 How long is the wait on a Elise these days and to what serial number are they at


----------



## HPLobster

mikelap said:


> How long is the wait on a Elise these days and to what serial number are they at


 
  
 I placed the order on January 8th. Can´t tell you the serial number yet but maybe others can share?


----------



## MIKELAP

hplobster said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > How long is the wait on a Elise these days and to what serial number are they at
> ...


 
 Congratulation on your new toy .


----------



## HPLobster

mikelap said:


> Congratulation on your new toy .


 
  
 Hehe, thank you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Although after reading the preceding posts, I just realized that mine kind of makes an appearance like a clown on a funeral...


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, I've spent a while preparing this post in hopes it will come across in a good way.
  
 In the interest of progression, I will go over a few brief points so that we may advance to the next chapter. Because just as Frederick Rea pointed out, of course the Elise threads are in pursuit of further refining the sound of the Elise... exploring what sonic wonders are possible from this marvel of a tube amp. Not wanting to get too much into "self defense mode" on the main thread for such a great amp, I will briefly clarify a few things, so that we may hopefully call this good.
  
 I understand the cautionary standpoint, and as such I will be even more mindful _if _I put out any more theories down the road. After all has been said and done, the fact is that my Elise #1 remained in great working condition with only a rustling sound in one channel which was so subtle that a microphone had to be on double-gian in order to audibly record it; and my current Elise, though I may have exceeded the current draw for no more than several minutes, is in absolutely top flight and flawless condition. My prior Ember tube amp had been sold in flawless condition, even after much adventurous tube rolling. My point is that I have never fried an amp, and those that are interested in trying experimental concepts should exercise caution and preferably reach out to a fine community such as this for support beforehand. I have since waned off of multi-tube setups and even reduced EL12 usage, and I have also been including 'audiophile' terms next to any OTT impressions so that a more balanced, scientific take-home can be had along with any more left-field descriptions. My two years of experience with tube rolling is not nearly as much as others, however certain adjectives directed towards a person _can _indeed be taken in a personally disparaging way; therefore those type of words should be avoided even if they are relevant to actual situations; of which advise I too shall follow on these forums.
  
 Last night I came across a song that I felt would be _(somewhat)_ appropriate to this, and sounded fantastic on the Elise with_ 'H.G.'_ Reflektor 6N23P + Tung Sol 5998.
Marvin Gaye - What's Going On

  
 I have definitely learned something from this, and I think we all may have even if in a small way. No multi-year friendships are flawless after all, and I think we may have more in common than we realise. I am genuinely thankful for all the support I've received to my queries over these many moons, including from H1 as well to whom I harbor no resentment; and I have been making an honest effort to contribute to others as well - albeit it in a slightly more 'outside the box' kind of way. Here's to the future.


----------



## DecentLevi

@HPLobster a very hearty welcome to the club! Yup you're on the newest thread for the Elise. I'm sure she'll give your music great finesse and authority 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Feel free to tell us your music preferences, as well as sonic preferences (what kind of tone or sonic attributes do you go for)... this way we can recommend some tubes that may tickle your fancy with the Elise + HD-800.
  
 Also I just can't keep in my new favorite pairings for electronic music on the Elise:
 * Mullard 6080 + 6N23P for an outstanding experience on the HD-650... great, weighty bass definition, solid impact and airy highs.
  
 * 6BL7 (singles) + Tungsram E80CC is a fantastic pairing on the HP-100... authorative bass, silky mids and a nice 3D extrusion
     this one has somewhat low gain which seems to somehow benefit these headphones with the increased volume gain demand


----------



## Spork67

hplobster said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Congratulation on your new toy .
> ...


 
 Not at all HPL.
 FA may have made an amp a tier or 2 aboveElise - but it has a price tag a tier or two above Elise (still excellent value from all [1] accounts...)
 Elise remains the best sub $1000 tube amp there is.
  
 Congrats on your purchase.


----------



## pctazhp

@DecentLevi Congratulations on your thoughtful and self-introspective post. The hardest thing I face in life is taking an honest evaluation of my own thoughts and actions, and how they affect others.
  
 I think the common bond of Elise owners is love of music and/or tube rolling, while enjoying the privilege of owning an exceptional headphone amp.
  
 You make an interesting distinction between what I and others have referred to as OTT language and what you refer to as using audiophile terms. If so called OTT language describes emotional reaction I have no problem with it, particularly when it is combined with audiophile terms that afford me information that may be helpful in putting posts into context.
  
 I have come to the conclusion that I no longer have either the listening skills or attention span sufficient to rank tubes (if I ever did). I also have become more comfortable keeping my descriptions of my experience with a particular combo shorter, but that is just a personal preference.


----------



## Frederick Rea

Welcome to HPLobster as the new owner. You will hear a new song from your current files
 A special welcome to DL who seems to have finally understood the purpose of this exchange of impressions. Thank you personally also to have you publicly informed here of the possibility of having at our disposal for the purchase of valves a collector who has them for sale (Stavros). So I came to the closest thing to my wants that are the GEC's 6AS7G as powers and the Ken Rad 6F8G as drivers, keeping the rest of my valves for a certain specific genre of music.
 Having read from the beginning, which still does not go far, all posts of all the threads of ELISE, I come to the conclusion that in addition to the more scientific side there is also a great friendship built here
 I think I speak for the majority, when I affirm that we are here, not to value ourselves but rather to contribute to a closer approximation of the sound, called music, to our personal taste. Just as are the personal words used as adjectives, but they must fit into the context for a credible and generally accepted term of comparison. Each one has his own personality, which he must keep within this context. It is not the audiophile terms that give us good music, but they serve to be able to have a term of comparison and to deepen knowledge. The understanding of how music is presented to us, whether in the 16bits version 44.1KHz (Red Book), 24bits oversampled, vinyl record, or other means, as well as the mastering of a work, is of fundamental importance in order to reach the total understanding of the Tube rolling, which is nothing more than a tweaking within the field of hearing frequencies. I speak at listening frequencies voluntarily, as there are more empirical and generally unfulfilled tendencies that are the mathematical data of a more or less complex electrical circuit. There are people who buy for the price - that the more expensive the machine is, the more perfect the device, and those who delight in perfection based on devices with characteristics that can achieve "OUR" sound. This is our case with ELISE-give us all possibilities of attaining nirvana


----------



## pctazhp

@Frederick Rea. Very well said)))
  
 I remember once hearing that it is much more difficult to design and build a superbly performing audio component within budget constraints than it is where there is no limit to cost.


----------



## hypnos1

hplobster said:


> I have finally settled on a headphone for my -soon to become reality- new desktop-rig.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congrats HPL, on both your Elise _and_ Sennheisers...a wonderful pairing indeed (even if I myself have the Beyer T1s!...which I love...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). There's no doubting the fact that this amp just cries out for top-flight cans, scaling surprisingly well for - as pctazhp says - something built to very deceiving "budget constraints" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...especially before cost increases necessitated the recent price increase alas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but still well below the $1000 mark!).
  
 And as for appearing a "Clown"?...far from it...we all welcome genuine excitement, and which seems to be the initial (and continued!) reaction of everyone who chooses this amp. You are in for some very enjoyable music experiences...and hopefully, _fairly_ soon!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...CJ
  


pctazhp said:


> @Frederick Rea. Very well said)))
> 
> I remember once hearing that it is much more difficult to design and build a superbly performing audio component within budget constraints than it is where there is no limit to cost.


 
  
 Too true, pct...to achieve this feat with Elise was a minor miracle...and to repeat the feat with the new Euforia, (IMHO), must surely seal Feliks-Audio's reputation beyond any doubt whatsoever lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.


----------



## Frederick Rea

http://tidal.com/track/26717006
 for those who love MUSIC (all of us)


----------



## UntilThen

There are so many posts here and on the Euforia thread, I'm going back and forth. By the time I'm finished with both threads, my mental exercise for the day is done ! 
  
@HPLobster  congrats on Elise and your new headphone HD800. A great choice picking the HD800 over the S but I won't upset owners of the S too much. It is after all head-fi and there's always a preference.   Btw that is a great name HPLobster. Don't worry about being a clown with your Star Trek post. You should have seen my Jim Carrey pictures with eyes popping and tongue rolling on the floor when I first heard Elise. Some humour is always good. 
  
@DecentLevi I applaud you for taking it well because I see no mean bones in anyone here. Enough said. Let's carry on enjoying this passion of ours together. Everyone is welcome. 
  
 Ps... just wait till you see when I get really OTT. Even Shakespeare will be envious.


----------



## DavidA

@UntilThen, i always thought most/if not all of us were OTT


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> @UntilThen, i always thought most/if not all of us were OTT


 
  
 Correct. We need the straight white jackets to contain the Forrest Gump in us sometimes.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> There are so many posts here and on the Euforia thread, I'm going back and forth. By the time I'm finished with both threads, my mental exercise for the day is done !
> 
> @HPLobster  congrats on Elise and your new headphone HD800. A great choice picking the HD800 over the S *but I won't upset owners of the S too much*. It is after all head-fi and there's always a preference.   Btw that is a great name HPLobster. Don't worry about being a clown with your Star Trek post. You should have seen my Jim Carrey pictures with eyes popping and tongue rolling on the floor when I first heard Elise. Some humour is always good.
> 
> ...


 
 You've already ruined my day


----------



## pctazhp

I officially object to any references to Jim Carrey on this thread. I know it is just a code word for Liar, Liar, which is a code word for something not nice about lawyers


----------



## connieflyer

Now now don't get your knickers in a knot there is nothing wrong with lawyers at least that's what I've been told.


----------



## UntilThen

Lawyers? Yeah right...


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> There are so many posts here and on the Euforia thread, I'm going back and forth. By the time I'm finished with both threads, my mental exercise for the day is done !
> 
> @HPLobster  congrats on Elise and your new headphone HD800. A great choice picking the HD800 over the S but I won't upset owners of the S too much. It is after all head-fi and there's always a preference.   Btw that is a great name HPLobster. Don't worry about being a clown with your Star Trek post. You should have seen my Jim Carrey pictures with eyes popping and tongue rolling on the floor when I first heard Elise. Some humour is always good.
> 
> ...


 
 I have a head fi friend here in Winnipeg that knows >>>>>> much more than I, that swears the 800 is much better than the 800s. He has no bias as he doesn't own either. He has just compared them.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I have a head fi friend here in Winnipeg that knows >>>>>> much more than I, that swears the 800 is much better than the 800s. He has no bias as he doesn't own either. He has just compared them.


 
  
 Oh boy. This will start a HD800 vs HD800S war.


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> I have a head fi friend here in Winnipeg that knows >>>>>> much more than I, that swears the 800 is much better than the 800s. He has no bias as he doesn't own either. He has just compared them.


 

 You can find right here on HeadFi countless fierce defenders of each. It is a meaningless debate because each person needs to decide for himself, preferably through testing at home on one's own system. Sennheiser is one of the most respected headphone manufacturers in the world. They waited five years to introduce the S based on their own extensive research. The S has sold very well and maintained a significant price level above the Classic.
  
 I bought my S without ever having heard either, but did have return rights. I've been thrilled with it. Many others are thrilled with their Classic. So many individual variables: preferences, individual hearing, system.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> You can find right here on HeadFi countless fierce defenders of each. It is a meaningless debate because each person needs to decide for himself, preferably through testing at home on one's own system. Sennheiser is one of the most respected headphone manufacturers in the world. They waited five years to introduce the S based on their own extensive research. The S has sold very well and maintained a significant price level above the Classic.
> 
> I bought my S without ever having heard either, but did have return rights. I've been thrilled with it. Many others are thrilled with their Classic. So many individual variables: preferences, individual hearing, system.


 
 They are different enough that I would consider owning both but would not use them with the same amps (or tubes) since the 800 was quite good with stock tubes of Elise which appear to be quite warm but this same warmth with the 800S is over doing it, like the HD-650 was with the stock tubes.
 And as you noted its a personal preference, individuals hearing and the rest of the audio chain.


----------



## HPLobster

decentlevi said:


> @HPLobster a very hearty welcome to the club! Yup you're on the newest thread for the Elise. I'm sure she'll give your music great finesse and authority
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


spork67 said:


> Congrats on your purchase.


 


frederick rea said:


> Welcome to HPLobster as the new owner.


 


hypnos1 said:


> Congrats HPL, on both your Elise _and_ Sennheisers...a wonderful pairing indeed
> 
> And as for appearing a "Clown"?...far from it...we all welcome genuine excitement, and which seems to be the initial (and continued!) reaction of everyone who chooses this amp. You are in for some very enjoyable music experiences...and hopefully, _fairly_ soon!!
> 
> ...


 


untilthen said:


> @HPLobster  congrats on Elise and your new headphone HD800. A great choice picking the HD800 over the S but I won't upset owners of the S too much. It is after all head-fi and there's always a preference.   Btw that is a great name HPLobster. Don't worry about being a clown with your Star Trek post. You should have seen my Jim Carrey pictures with eyes popping and tongue rolling on the floor when I first heard Elise. Some humour is always good.


 
  
  
  Thank you all for your welcome/congrats 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
@DecentLevi Thank you for your kind offer regarding tube-recommendations, I will assuredly return to it later....
  
@hypnos1 Haha, well, thank you for encouraging me, however, my comparison was only aimed at the direct juxtaposition to the more serious discussion going on here previously. I am a 32-year-old husband and father, why should I be embarassed about being pleased as punch about a headphone-amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
@UntilThen Yeah, I see now what I have done here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can totally see why many are chosing the 800S over the 800. After all, the two of them differ from one another more then I thought they would... and there´s no accounting for taste, right? Actually, the Hi-Fi-store´s owner where I auditioned them told me that the vast majority of customers chose the 800S over the classic model.
  
 BTW the prizing in Germany meanwhile officially seems to adjust...the 800 sells for 1.300 and the 800S for 1.600 Euros. I foresee a further adaptation in future, obviously the 800S isn´t ment to be a overall successor after all...


----------



## MIKELAP

Both are nice to own for different reason's


----------



## MIKELAP

aqsw said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > There are so many posts here and on the Euforia thread, I'm going back and forth. By the time I'm finished with both threads, my mental exercise for the day is done !
> ...


 
 Imo one is not really  better then the other, they are both good but with a different flavor i had an 800 and loved it i now have an 800S and love it also there's just a little more bass and a little less in the highs less fatiguing i would say .But i love them both


----------



## UntilThen

Getting impatient waiting for the replacement adapters to arrive, so I sanded the EL guide pins. Now they fit flush and I could have sworn the contacts are better now and it made a difference to what I'm hearing. That or the tubes are further burn in. There's an astonishing clearness from these tubes. Drums hit hard, crash of cymbals shimmers, pluck of guitar has that defined tone, vocals are just so clear. It's a powerful tone.
  
 So good it's hard for me to return to my previous favourite combos.
  
 Welcome to the industrial, grey, corporate look of Elise and EL11 / EL12N.


----------



## DecentLevi

So incoming today were my RFT EL11's - the newer version to replace my first EL11's that were in shoddy physical shape. I must say I am VERY impressed with these! The condition is exactly as good as they look in the photo, and sonically they perform identially as good as my older Telefunken EL11's... and from the brief A/B I've done so far I can say if any difference at all these _may _sound slightly more well defined.
  

  
 It's really a toss-up between the EL11's + RFT EL12's, or EL11 + GEC 6AS7G, depending on the recording or what you're in the mood for really.
 The GEC's with these EL11's sound more full bodied, 'classy' and mellow yet still snappy enough,
 The EL12's with these sound more snappy, lively, organic and with more 'presence' / air
  
 I got them from this lot on eBay, of which he still has 8 more as I write this


----------



## UntilThen

Those RFT EL11 looks great. Should sound similar to TFK EL11. 
  
 Indeed EL11 and EL12N has a lively snappy tone which I love. I even prefer it over EL11 and 5998.


----------



## hypnos1

hplobster said:


> Thank you all for your welcome/congrats
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Why be embarrassed, HPL?...GOOD QUESTION!...that's precisely what I keep asking myself when my better half constantly queries my (constant!) glowing words and obvious love for such a "lump of metal with bits of glass on top"!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(well, she may not use those _exact_ words, but the look on her face certainly does lol!...bless her...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 This now applies to my new Euforia just as it did to my Elise - so _double_ the embarrassment LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Those 800 prices just confirm what an absolute _steal_ was @mordy's recent mention of an Amazon.com offer re. the Beyer T1...and even current prices for the T1 are pretty good in comparison IMHO. But personal preference has to be taken into account here, of course!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. @UntilThen is your man for tube recommendations...he has indeed conducted the most comprehensive, careful and _reliably_ accurate tube trials for a long while now...trust me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


untilthen said:


> Getting impatient waiting for the replacement adapters to arrive, so I sanded the EL guide pins. Now they fit flush and I could have sworn the contacts are better now and it made a difference to what I'm hearing. That or the tubes are further burn in. There's an astonishing clearness from these tubes. Drums hit hard, crash of cymbals shimmers, pluck of guitar has that defined tone, vocals are just so clear. It's a powerful tone.
> 
> So good it's hard for me to return to my previous favourite combos.
> 
> Welcome to the industrial, grey, corporate look of Elise and EL11 / EL12N.


 
  
 Glad your EL11s are now performing better, UT.
  
 You have in fact prompted me to mention something I thought about a while ago now re. the pin contact...ie. because they are _*waisted*_ in design, anything that prevents _*full*_ insertion could therefore just _possibly _result in compromised performance, or even failure to work at all!!...just a thought lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And for folks who may not have caught my previous posts for a long while now on the EL11 (either here or on the Euforia thread), good used bargains can be had over at the *ebay.de* site (I keep to the original German...'translate' messes up for me!) - many are of the East German RFT (_basically_ Telefunken) brand, and near 100% examples can be had for about 25 Euros (+ shipping) each.... *ebayer roehrenfritze *lists a good few of these, and will combine shipping if you message him. Even the occasional NOS/NIB RFTs appear for not _too _much more money!
  
 And as I also mentioned previously, don't worry too much about getting tubes that "match" exactly from the mA readings listed...fairly close is perfectly good enough. The actual _performance_ figure can in fact be different anyway...one of mine testing at 24mA plays just as loud as one at 36mA!!....GOOD HUNTING!...


----------



## DecentLevi

H1 and anyone else... I have also been wondering lately if possibly the wiring used inside all these eBay adapters have been making less than optimal connections to our fine tubes? Here you can see from this example on one of my (former) multi-tube adapters from XuLing how thin the wires are that they use; which are likely the same as all of theirs. It may not look it from this blown up photo, but the gauge is very thin, and thinner gauge than the internals of most tubes.
  

  
 I wonder if anyone who has an eBay made adapter can compare the performance to any higher caliber or home-made adapters?


----------



## pctazhp

@DecentLevi Interesting picture of the adapter. The wires look ok to me. But what do I know? Nothing actually.
  
 I'm not much of a wire believer. Well, I believe it exists, but not convinced the type of copper or silver used in the short runs found in amps can make a difference. I know @hypnos1 will disagree with that. I also assume FA would disagree with me as they are using upgraded wire in Euforia.
  
 What amazes me is that another human being with (presumably) 10 fingers just like me can build something like that adapter. When I was a kid I built a model of the USS Missouri. It ended up with more glue than plastic parts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, in my Heath Kit days I was a pretty awesome solderer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nothing I built ever worked, but the solder joints were beautiful. Just kidding. I think something worked for an hour or so. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well, I'm just rambling. I need to get a second cup of coffee and maybe later today I'll have something intelligent to say - NOT GOING TO HAPPEN 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 For now, I have some shopping to do: https://smile.amazon.com/Tamiya-Models-Missouri-BB-63-Circa/dp/B0099FMFU0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1485437227&sr=8-2&keywords=uss+missouri+model+kit


----------



## MIKELAP

pctazhp said:


> @DecentLevi Interesting picture of the adapter. The wires look ok to me. But what do I know? Nothing actually.
> 
> I'm not much of a wire believer. Well, I believe it exists, but not convinced the type of copper or silver used in the short runs found in amps can make a difference. I know @hypnos1 will disagree with that. I also assume FA would disagree with me as they are using upgraded wire in Euforia.
> 
> ...


 
 Nice ship i personnally visited the USS Wisconsin same class of ship i think in Norfolk Virginia .I also finished several months ago this 1/78 scale HMS Victory took me 1 1/2 year to build it and destroy what little patience i had to start with lol


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> @DecentLevi Interesting picture of the adapter. The wires look ok to me. But what do I know? Nothing actually.
> 
> I'm not much of a wire believer. Well, I believe it exists, but not convinced the type of copper or silver used in the short runs found in amps can make a difference. I know @hypnos1 will disagree with that. I also assume FA would disagree with me as they are using upgraded wire in Euforia.
> 
> ...


 
 Took the Missouri tour a few times, its an impressive ship.  And the price of the model is a shock to me, I remember building it a few times in the 70's when most models were $2.00 to $4.00, gas was $0.27/gal IIRC.


----------



## pctazhp

Great pictures @MIKELAP and @DavidA. I love the big battleships and carriers. But I get seasick riding on a merry-go-round, so the Navy was not for me.


----------



## connieflyer

So chasing all those girls over in nam didn't make you dizzy you are truly a hero in my eyes right up there with at David a


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> So chasing all those girls over in nam didn't make you dizzy you are truly a hero in my eyes right up there with at David a


 

 What makes me dizzy is chasing all the tubes people here keep discovering 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for heroes I might suggest you reevaluate yours. May I recommend:


----------



## connieflyer

I can see by your use of @hypnos1 picture you are on the right track. Or is that a picture of Australia guy, hard to tell with all that Sunshine out there. Not used to that around here


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I can see by your use of @hypnos1 picture you are on the right track. Or is that a picture of Australia guy, hard to tell with all that Sunshine out there. Not used to that around here


 

 That's UT. The picture was taken last year while he was defending the Sydney Opera House from the invasion of the body snatchers (or was that the conversion of the gaudy slackers????).


----------



## connieflyer

I knew it had to be one or the other I'm glad it was @untilthen lets me know that Hypno's is still on the hunt for Hero Bro


----------



## DavidA

you guys are making me laugh so much I can't get to sleep even with the help of:


----------



## pctazhp

@DavidA. I didn't realize you are a collector of *actual bottles*.You're supposed to be collecting *bottle-shaped tubes*.
  
 I'm glad you are getting a laugh from our thread pollution. As for me, when I want to go to sleep I just read some of my posts and I'm asleep at my desk within minutes.
  
 In the spirit of mutual-assistance we enjoy here, I offer you:


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps we should just serenade him and then to sound our raised voices, he will attain a blissful sleep, or perhaps enter a nightmare.  Either way PC we shall help him!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Perhaps we should just serenade him and then to sound our raised voices, he will attain a blissful sleep, or perhaps enter a nightmare.  Either way PC we shall help him!


 

 For sure we are a model of helpfulness and melodious vocal talents.
  
 Candidly, I don't think I could sleep either if I were stuck on a speck of land out in the middle of the vast Pacific Ocean, completely surrounded by water, and had to feed myself armed only with a spear to toss at the fish.


----------



## connieflyer

Wait,I thought we were talking about @DavidA , on  a lush green island, in the quiet Pacific ocean surrounded by beautiful girls, great booze, wonderful food, fantastic scenery and fabulous musical equipment.  No spearfishing for me, I am with David!


----------



## UntilThen

From the quality of adapters to Missouri to Kapow, you guys have been busy while I was practising yogi experimentation with these Tele and Rft tubes.
  
 I'd say that the adapters from Mrs Xu are generally of acceptable quality given their price and easy availability and for those of us without the skills of @hypnos1 in making his own ... wait... he changed the base... amazing !!! Wish I could do that. 
  
 Where was I? Ah yes Mrs X adapters. She desgin pcb boards now to be used inside the adapters instead of using wires which can come unsoldered ... that's what she told me.
  
 No further comments on Missouri and Kapow except that the Alaskan cruise is on my bucket list.
  
@hypnos1 has been very generous with his praise of me for tube recommendations but I'm no pioneer. All my favourite combinations are of tubes that are long established sonic wonders. H1 did make some important pioneering work with certain tubes for use in Elise. C3g, ECC31, FDD20, EL3N, EL11. These are great sounding tubes that brings a big variation of tones from the standard 6SN7 and 6AS7.
  
 Then there are the small tubes like the 12ATX7 and 6N23P and their variations. I haven't experimented much with these except for Voskshod 6N23P which surprised me with a big powerful bass for such a small tube. I find the 6N23P bass overpowering with certain power tubes. I prefer a more linear FR presentation. YMMV.
  
 As for 6SN7 and 6AS7, I find these as an important building blocks for Elise. They should be as they are the tube compliments that Elise and Euforia were designed for. The good ones are expensive now and NOS versions are getting increasingly harder to find.
  
 As for EL11 and EL12N, this is the best sound (to my ears) for me, after a year of tube rolling. The days have stretched into weeks now with these tubes and I'm still just loving their tone. I have to thank @HOWIE13 for the EL12N discovery and credit goes to H1 for EL11.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Wait,I thought we were talking about @DavidA , on  a lush green island, in the quiet Pacific ocean surrounded by beautiful girls, great booze, wonderful food, fantastic scenery and fabulous musical equipment.  No spearfishing for me, I am with David!


 

 Oh yeah. He lives in one of those great places where it is always sunny and never any snow to shovel. Have you considered moving to Florida?
  
 BTW. Did you notice @UntilThen is back and actually contributing something of value to the thread???


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> As for EL11 and EL12N, this is the best sound (to my ears) for me, after a year of tube rolling. The days have stretched into weeks now with these tubes and I'm still just loving their tone. I have to thank @HOWIE13 for the EL12N discovery and credit goes to H1 for EL11.


 
 I feel I'm close to where you are with my current  c3g/EL12. combo. Maybe I'll catch up to you when the second set of adapters arrives. It looks like there was a delay in shipping. I'm thinking (hoping) it was so Mrs. X could make sure they have the right fit.


----------



## mordy

When the EL3N arrived on the scene I did a little research and suggested the EL11 but it was dismissed since the base was different. Anyhow, I am not the pioneering type when it comes to tubes, and we have to thank hypnos1 for trying these tubes and bringing attention to them.
  
 I am curios - since the EL12N is 1.2A, did anyone attempt a dual power tube setup (or dual EL11)?  This is similar to the 2.5A (1.8A) for the standard power tubes for the Elise. After all, the 6-pack EL3N does not qualify for the Frankenstein designation......-must be the red color. As a matter of fact, I have seen pictures of EL11 (but not EL12) in red as well.
  





  
 h1 - did you say that that the Tesla EL11 don't have the same solid construction as the other brands? What about Tungsram?


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> @DecentLevi Interesting picture of the adapter. The wires look ok to me. But what do I know? Nothing actually.
> 
> I'm not much of a wire believer. Well, I believe it exists, but not convinced the type of copper or silver used in the short runs found in amps can make a difference. I know @hypnos1 will disagree with that. I also assume FA would disagree with me as they are using upgraded wire in Euforia.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Aaahhh pct...yet _another_ VERY hot topic - _*wires and cables!*_...and one that I'm sure will _never_ end! As with all the other hot potatoes, one can only speak as one finds lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 ...DecentLevi's query echoes my own (endless!) personal statements on the need for *good* quality wire at as many stages in the signal line as is possible. And the fact that a good many hi-end amps do indeed use upgraded wire/cables _perhaps_ gives some credence to this...(I'm sure it can't _always_ be simply to cater to 'faddists' lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 I _personally_ don't believe I've been fooling myself throughout the countless tubes I have adapted, all the while trying out different wire in the process...I have indeed noticed subtle differences in the resulting sound, despite the ridicule of naysayers lol!!..(I don't count you, mon ami, as one of these! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Firstly, I would qualify this by stating that the differences between 'middle of the road' wires are indeed most probably minor. But I'm sure that when you enter 99.99% pure silver and single-crystal copper territory, there are likely to be more folks who _can_ in fact notice differences....(double-blind testing notwithstanding!!!)...although there will, of course, still be many who _cannot!_
  
 Secondly, re. the relatively small amounts of wire in amps - and especially _adapters!_ - my contention is that _*anything*_ inferior to what precedes it _*must*_ by definition degrade the purity of the electrical signal...the degree obviously dependent upon the disparity between them - at ALL stages. I don't see how anyone can really dispute this...
  
 Thirdly, I believe that just _single _improvements here and there probably don't bring about much noticeable improvement unless, as per my last statement, there is something _vastly_ inferior in the line that needs addressing!  Much greater success is, I'm sure, to be had by the _cumulative_ effect...and so I firmly believe we should examine closely each and every stage from signal player to final sound transducer, and do all we can within budgetary constraints to optimise the entire system as best we can, even if some of those areas may indeed bring only _extremely_ small improvements as of themselves...as I mentioned, in effect, the "whole is greater than the sum of the parts"!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 These are just my own thoughts...but I know I am not alone!...(there a good few more who agree, but many who never "come out" lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)....and to you I say...CHEERS!!...


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I feel I'm close to where you are with my current  c3g/EL12. combo. Maybe I'll catch up to you when the second set of adapters arrives.* It looks like there was a delay in shipping.* I'm thinking (hoping) it was so Mrs. X could make sure they have the right fit.


 
  
 It's Chinese New Year this Sat. Give her a break. The Roosters needs to do their **** a doodle do.
  
 Oops looks like my harmless word is censored.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's Chinese New Year this Sat. Give her a break. The Roosters needs to do their **** a doodle do.
> 
> Oops looks like my harmless word is censored.


 

 Ahhhh, Mr. Doodle-Doo:  I wasn't complaining, just reporting. Anyway the adapters shipped six days ago, so the Roosters can do all the (Sensored)-A-Doodle-Dooing they want


----------



## pctazhp

@hypnos1.  I'm glad my early morning ramblings hit one of your hot buttons. Nicely written post


----------



## connieflyer

I was surprised to see @hypnos1 post.  I did not know he knew that many words! Very accomplished!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I was surprised to see @hypnos1 post.  I did not know he knew that many words! Very accomplished!


 

 But he still needs to learn how to work Flying Saucers into his prose.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Ahhhh, Mr. Doodle-Doo:  I wasn't complaining, just reporting. Anyway the adapters shipped six days ago, so the Roosters can do all the (Sensored)-A-Doodle-Dooing they want




It seems China Post also rests for the two week New Years/Spring holiday. I have an item that has been in "outbound sorting" for seven days:

--> China 2017-01-19 21:35:16 Outbound in sorting center

.


----------



## pctazhp

jazzvinyl said:


> It seems China Post also rests for the two week New Years/Spring holiday. I have an item that has been in "outbound sorting" for seven days:
> 
> --> China 2017-01-19 21:35:16 Outbound in sorting center
> 
> .


 

 Thanks JV. It's totally out of my control, so I'm trying to be uncharacteristically patient for me )))


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Mrs Xu Ling emailed me that "there is a problem with China Post" and instead she was sending out the adapters via Hong Kong Post.
  
 Ordered them on 1/17 and they were mailed out 1/25, but today they arrived in New York already - usually takes a few days to go through customs and get to my local post office.
  
 Oskari - is the name Ling Xu or Xu Ling?


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Mrs Xu Ling emailed me that "there is a problem with China Post" and instead she was sending out the adapters via Hong Kong Post.
> 
> ...


 

 Mordy. You seem to be doing a lot better than I am. I ordered mine on 1/11. Tracking does show they were sent via Hong Kong Post. Maybe a Rooster swallowed mine.


----------



## UntilThen

Pct it takes longer to reach Arizona. It's a thorny country.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Pct it takes longer to reach Arizona. It's a thorny country.


 

 Are you calling the USA sex-starved ????  Oh, sorry. I didn't see the "t" at first


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 I once ordered two items sent from the same company in China. One item arrived in five days, and the other took a month - go figure.


----------



## DecentLevi

pctazhp said:


> But he still needs to learn how to work Flying Saucers into his prose.


 
 That must've been a reference to my several flying saucer references. I'm a believer and the math sure supports us not being alone. Maybe the silver saucer in the GEC 6AS7G's have something to do with their otherworldly sound... but then the stock powers have those too. 
  
 Also the E*UFO*RIA has one in it too.


pctazhp said:


> Are you calling the USA sex-starved ????  Oh, sorry. I didn't see the "t" at first


 
 So many Americans go overseas for it, for a reason


----------



## DecentLevi

hypnos1 said:


> Aaahhh pct...yet _another_ VERY hot topic - _*wires and cables!*_...and one that I'm sure will _never_ end! As with all the other hot potatoes, one can only speak as one finds lol...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 One of your most insightful posts, H1! Good enough to repeat. The above must have a lot to do with the reportedly improved sound of the Euforia. And that's perfectly logical: an inferior part of a chain can reduce the whole performance; also thin enough wire even acts as a resistor. I also have done a good handful of assorted tweaks to my rig last year that when added up make a large improvement.
  
 I for one though will hold off until when and if I ever hear favorable comparisons of a better wired tube adapter, otherwise I'll be quite satisfied with my current ones.


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> That must've been a reference to my several flying saucer references. I'm a believer and the math sure supports us not being alone. Maybe the silver sucer in the GEC 6AS7G's have something to do with their otherworldly sound... but then the stock powers have those too.


 
 Actually no. It was a reference to @connieflyer's unforgettable (at least I haven't forgotten it) posting of this time-honored classic:


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Oskari - is the name Ling Xu or Xu Ling?




That entirely depends.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi folks if you've gone the extra mile in ensuring that your chain has the best silver wire and hifi fuse, don't forget the mandatory 3 monthly ear flushed. You'll be surprised how much more you'll hear.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> That entirely depends.




Depends on what???


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Are you calling the USA sex-starved ????  Oh, sorry. I didn't see the "t" at first :evil:




Don't drop Ts unnecessarily. It will have serious repercussions. Can you imagine dropping the T off a name. Big trouble for you. !!!


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Depends on what???




Indeed.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> When the EL3N arrived on the scene I did a little research and suggested the EL11 but it was dismissed since the base was different. Anyhow, I am not the pioneering type when it comes to tubes, and we have to thank hypnos1 for trying these tubes and bringing attention to them.
> 
> I am curios - since the EL12N is 1.2A, did anyone attempt a dual power tube setup (or dual EL11)?  This is similar to the 2.5A (1.8A) for the standard power tubes for the Elise. After all, the 6-pack EL3N does not qualify for the Frankenstein designation......-must be the red color. As a matter of fact, I have seen pictures of EL11 (but not EL12) in red as well.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
 Re: dual set -ups.
 The adapters are now available. I'm hoping to finalise trials when I return from holiday in a week.
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192059623692?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## angpsi

Hi everybody,
 Today I received a late visit from Santa and it kinda woke up the child in me! How nice to receive all my new toys at once!

 First batch included 3 RCA 6080s and one Westinghouse courtesy of @mordy's advice, seconded by @DecentLevi. One RCA was a dud (vis–a–vis, didn't light up on the Elise) but I got the lot for $20 so I don't think I should make a big deal over it.

 On to the much lauded RFT EL11 plus adapters. I can confirm that the tubes don't sit flush with the adapters' surface. Wrote to Ms Xuling about it.

 First tried the EL11s with the stock TS power tubes. Didn't really like the combo in comparison to the TS/PsVane set. On my Senn HD600s the higher frequencies sounded harsh, and the whole sound was analytical but less dimensional / effortless. Granted that the EL11s didn't get much time to open up, so I'll probably revisit the combo in the future. Nevertheless, my initial impression was so disappointing I was almost convinced I lost money on these tubes.

 Moving on to the RCA 6080... Honestly, thank God for this tip! Boy can this combo sing! I'm still listening to the set as I write these lines, playing "La La Land" motion picture score via Tidal/Audirvana (upsampled). Foot tapping like a dog wagging it's tail at a juicy bone! Looks like there's merit to tube rolling after all!... Round plates on the RFTs too, but no mesh as @hypnos1 predicted!


  
 The Siemens EL12n look like gold! They came in as NOS/NIB, with a full report from the seller. Haven't tried them yet because I honestly cannot let go of the 6080s just now, but hopefully I'll bring myself to throw them in the mix and report accordingly. Unfortunately my second pair of adapters are still in the mail, so the EL11/EL12n combo must wait...

 Another pair to remain silent until further notice is the TF EL12spez. I got Mrs X's special [cf. "spezial"] adapters, but unfortunately they're still in the mail along with my second pair of regular EL11/12 to 6sn7 adapters. Hopefully they'll prove a fulfilling comparison with all the rest of my powers. I also wonder if they'll suffer from the "Tower of Pizza[edit: Pisa]" effect too.

 Finally, there's this one Valvo EL11 that I got on a whim. Unfortunately it's only one valve. With _oval_ plate. No mesh. I wonder if I should look to pair it or get rid of it in order to get some of my money back. What do you guys say?

  
 That just about sums it up.
 -----------------------------
  
 As I reach the end of this post, I cannot help myself but think "man, what a shopping spree"! Still, it looks like there are returns to be had out from it; and by the looks of it they're much rather _rewarding_ than diminishing! Writing these lines I've managed to go through the full one hour or so of the La La Land score, now turning to Ry Cooder & Corridos Famosos "Live from San Francisco". This album also affords me a nice side comparison between the Audirvana upsampling version and the original MQA version. I find the 6080s sing wonderfully on the 'regular' version, but the MQA leaves me wanting for a bit more.
  
 Is there something real here or did I just catch that virus which compels all of you wonderful people to compare tubes in perpetuity? 
  
 Once again, thank you for being such a knowledgeable, friendly and willing crowd,
 Wish me luck with my new vice,
 Angelos.
  
 P.S. In regard to @DecentLevi's post about wiring, the adapters clearly use a pcb board to make the connection. This is the best pic I could take, but I think it shows off the green colour of the board quite clearly.


----------



## angpsi

Quick update:
 Air, separation, and effortless rendering. The Siemens EL12n look like a very special deal. Or is it that I'm actually hearing more of the Psvanes, and that the sound signature of the EL12n is much less a part of the equation? The sound _does_ remind me of the stock configuration, albeit noticeably better (–or is it psychoacoustics?).
  
 I am intrigued to see what all the new owners of the Euforia have to say about the Psvanes once they receive them. Personally, I do feel like a different driver might complement the EL12n with a much fuller sound; but given my lack of experience, this is just a hunch.
  
 *****
 EDIT: Yup! Lots of Psvane in what I heard! Changed back to TS drivers—proper warm–up and everything—and confirmed it. In fact, I actually like the stock combo _very_ much! Looking forward to Euforia owners' findings once they get their own Psvanes.
 *****
  
 "Tower of Pisa" effect also confirmed with the Siemens EL12n—in fact much more pronounced than with the RFT EL11.
  


  
 *****
 EDIT #2: Power tubes do have a signature: changed for the RCA 6080 and immediately got a much warmer, lusher, and more rounded sound without significant loss on detail. An excellent sounding Ry Cooder makes me think this tube is very well suited for rock 'n' roll and blues. La La Land sounds like straight from a jazz vinyl, but I know the recoding can be _way_ more resolving with the other combos. Mid–forward maybe? Damn, this is going to be a pain!

  
  
 Switching back to RCA 6080/RFT EL11 and let it breathe for a while, see what happens...


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Enjoyed reading about your tube rolling adventures! And beautiful pictures as well! My own experience has been that it takes a while to assimilate and comprehend the sound signature of tube combinations. At times the first impression stays or even gets stronger; at other times something starts to irritate you in the presentation, and after a while you realize exactly what is bothering you.
  
 Then the tube may be relegated to the dust bin, BUT, I have found that suddenly, paired with a different tube,  the me-too could  become a center stage player. For this reason I find it difficult to part with my tubes. You never know when something comes up that will make them sound great.
  
 Re the single EL11, if it wasn't too much money, I would say to stay with it. With hard to find tubes, sometimes you have to buy them as singles. I don't know anybody who buys old tubes for an investment, but I do notice that GEC 6AS7 tubes that sold for $50-100 five years ago, can now fetch $450 for a single tube.
  
 Speaking of old tubes, while waiting for my adapters, I have acquired three Telefunken tubes that were made in 1938, 1941 and 1942. They are totally opaque and it is not possible to see the internal construction. Will be interesting to see if they work, and to hear them.....
  
 If you want to know when your TFK tubes were made, turn them upside down and there should be a couple of small letters in white on the base near the pins. Then google Telefunken date codes and you will find a large chart in alphabetical order to look up the dates (the letters are random).
  
 And here is a tip for the crowd that is almost as old as these tubes(!): I used to use a magnifying glass to read and decipher the markings on the tubes. A friend of mine showed me that you can use your smart phone as a magnifying glass - you just click on the camera function, and zoom in on the picture to magnify it. It really works very well and much better than my old method.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Hi folks if you've gone the extra mile in ensuring that your chain has the best silver wire and hifi fuse, *don't forget the mandatory 3 monthly ear flushed.* You'll be surprised how much more you'll hear.


 
  
 Never truer words spoken, UT!!...the state of our ears, and thus our auditory experience, varies quite considerably according to a host of factors, of course (and not only the insidious accompaniments to old age! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) ...just one more part of the equation that's guaranteed to have us all going round and round in ever decreasing circles lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. 
 Yet still we continue to dive headlong into the maelstrom...crazy or what??!!!


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks @DecentLevi...controversial subjects, to be sure! But in my opinion, "nothing ventured....etc.etc."!!! And even if only just _some_ areas bring _perceived_ differences/'improvements', then at least they are totally valid to the individual concerned...."to each his/her own"...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
@angpsi...WOW! - you most obviously have already caught the dreaded virus..._*Abandon all hope!*_, mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...well done!
 But as mordy says, early impressions can be notoriously misleading...not only due to the need for sometimes _lengthy_ burn-in of new components, but also "readjustment" of our ears to different _types_ of sound delivered over a period of time. It will be very interesting to hear your views even further down the road lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for that Valvo EL11 with the _oval_ plate (sadly not meshed!), I would presume it to sound like my own oval-plate 11s - ie. just like the EL3N, rather than the Telefunken round plate designed tubes.
  
 Am really glad your choice of Elise is obviously going to bring you continued joy and interest - not to mention plenty of head scratching! - for a long while yet lol....ENJOY!!...


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> When the EL3N arrived on the scene I did a little research and suggested the EL11 but it was dismissed since the base was different. Anyhow, I am not the pioneering type when it comes to tubes, and we have to thank hypnos1 for trying these tubes and bringing attention to them.
> 
> I am curios - since the EL12N is 1.2A, did anyone attempt a dual power tube setup (or dual EL11)?  This is similar to the 2.5A (1.8A) for the standard power tubes for the Elise. After all, the 6-pack EL3N does not qualify for the Frankenstein designation......-must be the red color. As a matter of fact, I have seen pictures of EL11 (but not EL12) in red as well.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Re. the EL11, yes indeed... When I too researched the EL3N after @UntilThen showed me the pretty red skirt he'd spied and asked if I could get it to work in Elise, I only wish I hadn't been turned off by the different base of the EL11 lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...then, perhaps, there would have been less divergence from the 'norm' amongst different setups using the 3N - I do believe the EL11 is a tube that will appeal to a wider audience...not just re. suitability to varying equipment, but also different individual tastes.
  
 And perhaps I might still not have bothered if UT hadn't hankered after me to knuckle down once more...(and once again, I'm sure this was prompted by a picture of a "sexy looking" pair of TFK tubes that this time _*I*_ showed _*him*_ lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). Serendipity was surely - and fortunately - at work here yet again...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for Tungsram, I have to admit I didn't think their EL3(N) was up to the Philips Miniwatt standard of construction, but certainly better than the Teslas I tried. However, the grey glass T/ram EL11 I have looks much better...HOWEVER...it has the expected Philips design *oval* plate, and so would most probably be another to sound more like the EL3N than the TFK *round* plate EL11.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Oskari - is the name Ling Xu or Xu Ling?







oskari said:


> That entirely depends.







untilthen said:


> Depends on what???




Actually it seems to depend on whether you wish to put the surname last or first.


----------



## angpsi

oskari said:


> Actually it seems to depend on whether you wish to put the surname last or first.



@Oskari, You are officially my hero!


----------



## UntilThen

@Oskari is a man of few wise words.


----------



## UntilThen

Poor @Spork67 . When he comes back from fishing, it's more like 500 posts to catch up on instead of 50.


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> Poor @Spork67 . When he comes back from fishing, it's more like 500 posts to catch up on instead of 50.


 
 sorry, I couldn't resist:


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  you are well and truly hooked on tubes. A not uncommon phenomenon amongst Elise owners. There was a time where I had a package arriving every week, sometimes days. I still do get excited now when I get a new pair of tubes.
  
 All the wise sages here have told you their experiences. Initial impressions can hold true or they can change over time. When you've settle down with your collection of tubes after a year, you'll then realise which is your favourite tubes and combination. Sometimes your taste change too. You can start off loving a warm and lush tone to gradually preferring a more neutral, analytical tone or vice-versa.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> sorry, I couldn't resist:


 
  
 Ok I laugh ... a lot at this video. It is funny.
  
 This is Sporky now somewhere in Antarctica.


----------



## UntilThen

I have to report that Yvonne the sweet German girl is truly sweet. When I told her that the TFK EL12 has no lights and sound, she promptly refunded my money and apologise that it didn't work. She was selling her grandpa's tubes. 
  
 All she ask is that I send back the old original box (folded flat) that came with the tube, at the cheapest shipping cost. This will probably cost just $2.95C stamp in an envelope. Even said that if she finds a good working EL12, she will send it to me.


----------



## UntilThen

Please give me 2 good reasons why I shouldn't buy these tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Please give me 2 good reasons why I shouldn't buy these tubes.


 
  
 Can't think of _*any*_, UT....except $$$$$$$$$$$???????????? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.....
  
 Your Yvonne sounds a really great gal! ...glad you've had a good outcome there lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Can't think of _*any*_, UT....except $$$$$$$$$$$????????????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I was going to buy it and send the bill to my rich lawyer friend Pct.


----------



## hypnos1

And thanks also to you @connieflyer and @pctazhp re. my recent diatribe...think I've just about posted enough of those these past 2 years lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....especially as the only 'Flying Saucers' around here, pct, are of the _ceramic_ kind - methinks perhaps I'm spending too much time listening to my amp and _writing_ about it/them LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 (Will be donning the chainmail suit this weekend for sure - I hear my ST EL12s calling out for surgery!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..._wish me luck!!.._





).
 Have a great weekend guys, enjoying your amps....but just watch out for those Flying Saucers lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....


----------



## connieflyer

Diatribes are a way to cleanse the soul! You are welcome to as many as you need, no problem here. Good luck on the tubes, hope you don't get careless and break another one!  Okay PCT you're up, take it from here!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Moving on to the RCA 6080... Honestly, thank God for this tip! Boy can this combo sing! I'm still listening to the set as I write these lines, playing "La La Land" motion picture score via Tidal/Audirvana (upsampled). *Foot tapping like a dog wagging it's tail at a juicy bone!* Looks like there's merit to tube rolling after all!...


 
  
 Careful apsi. You're approaching early signs of OTT. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for this statement, 'Looks like there's merit to tube rolling after all!' ..... why do you think the rest of us have been practising this ancient art for so long.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> And thanks also to you @connieflyer and @pctazhp re. my recent diatribe...think I've just about posted enough of those these past 2 years lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I was wondering when you will get around to make those EL12 and EL12Ns sing !


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I was wondering when you will get around to make those EL12 and EL12Ns sing !


 
  
 Too many Flying Saucers, my friend...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 G'night.....


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Diatribes are a way to cleanse the soul! You are welcome to as many as you need, no problem here. Good luck on the tubes, hope you don't get careless and break another one!  Okay PCT you're up, take it from here!


 
  
 Me?....break a tube?..._how could you, cf!!_







  
 And G'night to you too....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

Telefunken EL11 playing now with RCA 6080. Another reason why inexpensive tubes can sound good in Elise.
  
 It has my


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 You made my day since I, serendipitously, discovered the synergy in the RCA 6080s in the Elise. (But that's another story, just ask DL lol)
  
 OK, when is somebody going take me up on the RCA 6SN7GTB horizontal heater wire tubes?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> OK, when is somebody going take me up on the RCA 6SN7GTB horizontal heater wire tubes?


 
  
 Picture of the tube please.


----------



## UntilThen

I was hoping to listen to the Focal Utopia on my Euforia in late March 2017 Can Jam in Sydney but alas the owner is selling it.
  
 http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/117678-fs-focal-utopia-forza-cables-copper-series-hpc-mk2-balanced-cable-25m/


----------



## vl4dimir

Seeing your posts about tubes makes me even more sad  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I should have received my adapters today; on the online tracking it said it was delivered today but haven't received anything... called the post service and they have no idea where it was delivered (these incompetent mother****°°°)


----------



## UntilThen

@vl4dimir  I sympathise with you so I'll share what lovely music I'm hearing from @connieflyer  Eagles LP through Elise with EL tubes.
  

  
One of these nights ​​ One of these crazy old nights ​​ We're gonna find out ​​ Pretty mama ​​ What turns on your lights ​​ The full moon is calling ​​ The fever is high ​​ And the wicked wind whispers ​​ And moans ​​ ​ You got your demons ​​ You got desires ​​ Well, I got a few of my own ​  
  
 Beautiful lyrics.


----------



## pctazhp

Rich lawyer friend to @UntilThen. Did you give a speech at this event? I couldn't see any seagulls in the stands.


----------



## pctazhp

BTW. This is why God created the Abbey Road studios and followed up later with Elise:


----------



## DavidA

@pctazhp, love the Seekers and Georgy Girl was one of the first songs that my mom bought the record for me.  Great memories there


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> Please give me 2 good reasons why I shouldn't buy these tubes.


 
 - All four of the four pairs of ST-shaped EL12's various users had tried had one channel that was either dead on arrival or instantly failed in the Elise
 - It was informally agreed that we wouldn't recommend that class
  
 However IIRC, wasn't at least most of all the failed ST-shaped EL12's of  the Valvos brand? So is my assumption correct that given very recent developments that any ST EL12's save for the Valvos are no longer off the table to recommend?


----------



## UntilThen

As of this point in time the status of EL12 tubes is 'use at your own risk' until UntilThen gives the ok.

So if you could all lay off EL12 so the price will come crashing down and I can buy a nice pair cheap.

Thank you all very much.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Careful apsi. You're approaching early signs of OTT. :bigsmile_face:







untilthen said:


> Telefunken EL11 playing now with RCA 6080. Another reason why inexpensive tubes can sound good in Elise.
> 
> It has my




Dogs are out, seals are in; ok, got it! 



mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> You made my day since I, serendipitously, discovered the synergy in the RCA 6080s in the Elise. (But that's another story, just ask DL lol




Honestly, at the price of these tubes I couldn't help myself but praise my good fortune to have you guys giving me advice!


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> h1 - did you say that that the Tesla EL11 don't have the same solid construction as the other brands? What about Tungsram?


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Have just checked my T/ram EL11s again, and the plot thickens once more!...Although my _grey_ glass tube, which has the Philips _oval_ plate as opposed to the expected TFK large _round_ one, my red-skirted black glass, clear top example has a plate quite different to either lol! It's still round, but a good bit smaller, with larger 'folds'. The bottle is also a different shape, as per your photo above... and those smaller plates look the same as I have just described.
  
 So, until I manage to get round to adapting it, I'm afraid I haven't the faintest clue about their sound - like the EL3N?...the TFK EL11?...somewhere between the two?...or different again lol?!!! These 11s are turning out to be a _real_ teaser....especially with my oval _*mesh-plate *_versions thrown into the mix!!


----------



## pctazhp

My pair of Siemens EL12 ST is working DOG-gone good. At least this pair has my DOG of approval.


----------



## DecentLevi

I got my free replacement Ellis (EL11 LOL) adapters from XuLing and the tube are sittin' pretty and sounding pretty also. Not sure if it's just placebo, but these just may be sounding better than with the old tower of Pisa adapters, and my EL11 + GEC 6080's have fantastic synergy (both being bright tubes so great for dark recordings though). I think the EL11's sound good with basically any of my powers but no specific preference for the RCA pairing among all the top ranked powers I have. I just throw it in when I need more upper energy, bite and 3D-ness.
  
 Ellis + Elise


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> I got my free replacement Ellis (EL11 LOL) adapters from XuLing and the tube are sittin' pretty and sounding pretty also. Not sure if it's just placebo, but these just may be sounding better than with the old tower of Pisa adapters, and my EL11 + GEC 6080's have fantastic synergy (both being bright tubes so great for dark recordings though). I think the EL11's sound good with basically any of my powers but no specific preference for the RCA pairing among all the top ranked powers I have. I just throw it in when I need more upper energy, bite and 3D-ness.
> 
> Ellis + Elise


 
  
 EL11 does sound good with most power tubes. The lil chart that I did, can't find it now, I had some descriptions of those combinations.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Here are a couple pictures of the RCA 6SN7GTB tubes with that horizontal heater wire. The lettering on the base is in red, and the tubes are from the 60's. Please note that not all RCA 6SN7GTB tubes with the red lettering have the horizontal heater wire. It is hard to see on many pictures, so it's best to ask the seller if you want to get them.
  
 This tube shows the construction:
 This is a re-branded RCA tube




  





 
  
 Above is a closeup of the horizontal heater wire in action.
  
 Two more pictures from a recent seller:
  




  




  
 I have not heard the Ken-Rad VT231 but my intuition (for whatever it is worth) and descriptions I read tells me that these may sound similar. As stated before, I haven't found anybody reviewing this tube, but one of the forum members got it and liked it.


----------



## mordy

Today I received my EL adapters from Mrs Xuling - arrived in 11 days; not bad at all.
  
 First I tried my tired looking TFK EL12 from 1938. The seller had sent me an email before it arrived that it may not work, and she was right. Dead as a door nail; didn't even get warm.
  
 Next two TFK industrial gray totally opaque EL11 tubes from 1941 and 1942 which both measured good. I remember from my Little Dot days that really old tubes may need a little time to wake up from decades of sleep. Something about dusting off the electrons and and letting them learning their way around.
  
 Anyhow, both tubes work well, and the adapters emit a reassuring click when the tubes are inserted - nothing like the cold sweat experience of trying to seat EL3N tubes in recalcitrant adapters.
  
*First impression of sound: SWEET, DELICIOUS, REFINED, VELVETY.*
  
 I have them paired with the Bendix 6080WB because that's what's in my amp ATM.
  
 Also determined that a single Siemens EL12N works. I assume that it is a re branded RFT. The date code is 273. Week 27 1953/63? What do you think, Oskari?
  
 More tubes are on the way.....


----------



## UntilThen

Excellent Mordy. I thought the EL11 and Bendix 6080wb sounded good too. Gooder than good.


----------



## UntilThen

I can't help but find EL11 / Bendix 6080wb quite close in tone to EL11 / EL12N but there's a difference. EL12N is more massive and have a bigger stage. Both combinations are quite true to live drum beats. Listen to 'Billie Jean' by Michael Jackson intro. A good combo will portray the toms, kick drums and bass faithfully. I'm using T1 ... your experience may be different.
  
 Edit: EL12N hits harder on the drums in that track.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Also determined that a single Siemens EL12N works. I assume that it is a re branded RFT. The date code is 273. Week 27 1953/63? What do you think, Oskari?




Not even sure it's a date code…


----------



## richdytch

Hello folks. Occasional post from frequent lurker. 
  
 I've just dug my dad's old Marantz PM7001ki amp out of the loft and hooked it up with the Elise for a laugh. With its own preamp stage it was fairly rough - pretty sharp and grating. With the Elise it sounded better, but not wonderful. Then I tried a number of tube combinations, none of which yielded remarkable results, until I struck upon the Chatham 6AS7G/KR VT231 combo, which seems to work particularly well with this amp. Classical vocals sound way better on this system than I'd have ever predicted. Much better than with my Quad, Topping or Temple amps. Crazy business. 
  
 Anyway, may I ask for anyone's personal summary of the character of EL12N tubes as power tubes in the Elise? I've read quite a bit about them on the thread, but have maybe missed some info. How do they compare with the elite power tubes? Would they be a step up from my staple Mullard 6080 and Chatham 6AS7G? 
  
 Thanks.


----------



## DecentLevi

Funny you should mention a comparison of the EL12N to Mullard 6080, because last night I actually preferred the Mullard 6080 to the EL12N... but that was largely because of the headphones and music style. I just got the HD-600 which I must say not only compliments the HD-650 but _to me_ is superior on nearly all accounts - much more transparent, detailed and faster / snappier dynamics than the HD-650! And to me is not even fatiguing. Though HD-650's still have an edge for sheer bass quantity. (testing still in progress...)
  
 For this instance the reason the Mullard 6080's sounded better than the EL12N was because it was paired with a somewhat bright / fast headphone... being that that is essentially the sonic flavor of the EL12N's I would call that 'double dipping' the brightness and snappyness. However when it comes to the HD-650, the EL12N sounded better for most genres - except electronica because IMO _for electronica_, no powers beat the Mullard 6080's _(or single 6BL7 for some headphones)_ except occasionally the GEC 6080. According to your profile you have HD-580, DT-770, HD-650 and HE-400. I would say the EL12N and / or the Telefunken EL11 or RFT EL11 as drivers would suit extremely well your HD 580 and 650, to add some extra clarity and snappyness that is inherently lacking on those 'cans; and for your DT-770 or HE-400 headphones I would recommend power tubes Mullard 6080, RCA 6080 or Bendix 6080.
  
 Another thing the EL12N's bring to the table is a 3D-like soundstage and sense of air / presence unlike any power tubes I've ever heard before - including EL3N and GEC 6AS7G.


----------



## Frederick Rea

FLAC Files
 http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/chrome-and-firefox-now-support-flac-lossless-audio-30-01-2017/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


----------



## richdytch

decentlevi said:


> Funny you should mention a comparison of the EL12N to Mullard 6080, because last night I actually preferred the Mullard 6080 to the EL12N... but that was largely because of the headphones and music style. I just got the HD-600 which I must say not only compliments the HD-650 but _to me_ is superior on nearly all accounts - much more transparent, detailed and faster / snappier dynamics than the HD-650! And to me is not even fatiguing. Though HD-650's still have an edge for sheer bass quantity. (testing still in progress...)
> 
> For this instance the reason the Mullard 6080's sounded better than the EL12N was because it was paired with a somewhat bright / fast headphone... being that that is essentially the sonic flavor of the EL12N's I would call that 'double dipping' the brightness and snappyness. However when it comes to the HD-650, the EL12N sounded better for most genres - except electronica because IMO _for electronica_, no powers beat the Mullard 6080's _(or single 6BL7 for some headphones)_ except occasionally the GEC 6080. According to your profile you have HD-580, DT-770, HD-650 and HE-400. I would say the EL12N and / or the Telefunken EL11 or RFT EL11 as drivers would suit extremely well your HD 580 and 650, to add some extra clarity and snappyness that is inherently lacking on those 'cans; and for your DT-770 or HE-400 headphones I would recommend power tubes Mullard 6080, RCA 6080 or Bendix 6080.
> 
> Another thing the EL12N's bring to the table is a 3D-like soundstage and sense of air / presence unlike any power tubes I've ever heard before - including EL3N and GEC 6AS7G.


 

 Thanks DL, that's very helpful.


----------



## UntilThen

I've never felt that the EL12N were overly bright. In the EL11 / EL12N combo with T1, I get the sweetest, clearest timbre. 
  
 In my experience, I find the Mullard 6080 bright and has a sharper tone. Suuup ask me once what tubes would I recommend to brighten up a dark, warm musical piece and I told him to use c3g and Mullard 6080.
  
 However I do understand we're not all alike and will interpret tubes differently.
  
 Anyway time to sleep.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys...apologies for only occasional visits here of late - I'm sure most of you understand why lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and there just aren't enough hours in the day alas!...).
  
 Most of my trial info on the ST "Coke Bottle" EL12s has been over at the new Euforia thread, and I hope no-one minds my repetition over here - it does apply equally to both amps, after all! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But first, I must state my sadness and disappointment at yet another of these tubes not working on arrival for @UntilThen, even though NOS (an RFT this time). The number of these already has now confirmed my opinion that these simply *cannot be recommended* with any level of safe reliability, especially given their high cost. The straight-sided EL12*N*, however, seem to be much more reliable, and given they appear to perform extremely well and are much cheaper, these would seem to me to be a much better bet.
  
 For interest's sake - and perhaps those brave souls who don't mind taking the risk (_*at their own expense lol!*_) - I have a photo for you, of my own RFT EL12s sitting behind my black glass, mesh-plated Valvo EL11s...and after, just a few preliminary impressions as it's still far too early for any meaningful assessment   :
  

  
 I do find it sad indeed that I personally cannot sanction purchase of the ST EL12, because when it works, it is truly a magnificent power tube.
  
 I don't know how much different this verson is to the straight 12N, but their sound _*in my system*_ is nowhere near as 'bright' as @DecentLevi mentioned recently concerning the 12N. But then, this is no real surprise, given totally different DAC and headphones...not to mention _amp_ lol! And even my mesh plate 11s are quite a bit different to the Telefunken stable tubes.
  
 Plus, at this point, I must repeat that in both amps, results from cans not in the same league as Beyer T1s or Senn HD 800/S will give much different results, so please bear this in mind...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 My early impressions of the ST12s are that they deliver an extremely smooth and powerful/dynamic sound, with wide FR coverage, great detail and wonderful soundstage. Bass is phenomenal, and treble is devoid of any harshness whatsoever. But again, this is as per my own setup.
  
 At the moment - before proper burn-in - I am actually missing the greater subtlety and 'refinement' of the GEC CV2523s, and eagerly await any further changes time may bring...unless my ears adjust more to the increased dynamic LOL!! (a prime case of personal preference here, I suspect!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). It could also be that I need to try different tubes in my tube DAC to fine tune matters...the whole subject of equipment 'synergy' is very much more complex than often taken into account!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Whatever, these EL12(or N) tubes are obviously way near top-tier material, without a shadow of doubt...and for not _astronomical_ money...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Funny you should mention a comparison of the EL12N to Mullard 6080, because last night I actually preferred the Mullard 6080 to the EL12N... but that was largely because of the headphones and music style. I just got the HD-600 which I must say not only compliments the HD-650 but _to me_ is superior on nearly all accounts - much more transparent, detailed and faster / snappier dynamics than the HD-650! And to me is not even fatiguing. Though HD-650's still have an edge for sheer bass quantity. (testing still in progress...)
> 
> For this instance the reason the Mullard 6080's sounded better than the EL12N was because it was paired with a somewhat bright / fast headphone... being that that is essentially the sonic flavor of the EL12N's I would call that 'double dipping' the brightness and snappyness. However when it comes to the HD-650, the EL12N sounded better for most genres - except electronica because IMO _for electronica_, no powers beat the Mullard 6080's _(or single 6BL7 for some headphones)_ except occasionally the GEC 6080. According to your profile you have HD-580, DT-770, HD-650 and HE-400. I would say the EL12N and / or the Telefunken EL11 or RFT EL11 as drivers would suit extremely well your HD 580 and 650, to add some extra clarity and snappyness that is inherently lacking on those 'cans; and for your DT-770 or HE-400 headphones I would recommend power tubes Mullard 6080, RCA 6080 or Bendix 6080.
> 
> Another thing the EL12N's bring to the table is a 3D-like soundstage and sense of air / presence unlike any power tubes I've ever heard before - including EL3N and GEC 6AS7G.


 
 I'm pleased you have got the HD600 as I've always thought it would suit your Electronica.
 I find them a fine can for fast Baroque instrumental, such as recorders, flutes and especially harpsicord where fast, clean, snappy, airy sound is often essential for a realistic and engaging experience-which Elise can deliver with abundance for me. That's the closest I come to electronic music-they are not so far apart actually.
  
 I don't particularly favour the Mullard 6080's-it's not their sound signature so much, which I sometimes find somewhat bright, though always very clear with well articulated bass, but they don't draw me into the music and engender an emotional response. Of course that's just my personal hearing and brain, based on my music and set-up. I know a lot of us enjoy the Mullards and they are reliable and mine are very quiet tubes too.
  
 As far as your new HD600's and EL12N's are concerned, if they are not already well burned in I would delay making any final opinion until they have played up to a couple of hundred hours or so. I would think both will open up even more and smooth out a little at the top end as you use them, enhancing their already wonderful sound-stage and presence, which you so aptly describe.
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## pctazhp

Someone said they wanted some jokes on this thread. I thought and thought, and this is the best I could come up with:
  
 What did one EL12-ST tube say to the other one? You're DEAD, man!!!!


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp Now I know why I don't hang out here anymore!  If that passes for humor, my bank account passes for Fort Knox!


----------



## pctazhp

BTW @connieflyer. I'm assuming you don't believe tubes really talk to each other. Haven't you ever heard of "cross-talk" ????


----------



## connieflyer

Oh, okay, I was wrong, and I admit it.  I thought cross talk was when you were pissed at someone, my mistake.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Oh, okay, I was wrong, and I admit it.  I thought cross talk was when you were pissed at someone, my mistake.


 

 CF: It is pretty scary how much we think alike.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Lesson to guy on other thread who wanted "humor" here. Be careful what you pray for ))))


----------



## connieflyer

Correct and H has already posted on Elise so I won't continue.  By the way, I also did the audio visual in school, much better than study hall.  Lots of times I told them I had a film to run, and just went down to the a/v room and napped, or invited young ladies in for a private screening.


----------



## mordy

So I have this Telefunken Absolute Raritet *1938* EL12 tube:
  





  
 Dead.
  
 What should I do with it? (the seller refunded me the money)
  
 1) Smash the glass envelope and take pictures of the internal construction since nobody knows how it looks inside - the glass is completely opaque. All in the interest of science, of course.
  
 2) Sell it on eBay for display purposes (somebody in Australia is advertising a non-working GEC 6AS7G for AU$8 + shipping)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6as7-Brown-base-not-working-for-display-only-/332104535516?hash=item4d52f90ddc:g:fh8AAOSw6n5Xp~ex
  




_Diagnosis: Based on the appearance of a white coating inside the glass Dr. Mordy says that this is a case of loss of vacuum._
  
   I would charge $8 but the shipping would be cheaper. (Somebody told me that if you can't make $8 on an item on eBay it does not pay)
  
 3) Donate it to the Tube Museum
  
 4) Sell it in Nigeria


----------



## connieflyer

I would send it to Hypnos1 and ask him to breathe new life into it. I am sure he can do it!


----------



## mordy

I read about people who know how to apply different electric currents to tubes to revive them, but have not heard about any real cases.


----------



## connieflyer

I have done that with NICad batteries but never heard of a vacuum tube process.Since all the elements are separate components, I don't see how that would work. But I have been wrong once or twice. Okay, maybe once.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> CF: It is pretty scary how much we think alike.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Aaahhh pct...looks like things might just be returning to 'normal' here now lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Feliks-Audio threads do indeed seem to have a tradition of twisting from side-to-side more than any Rattler/Python/Black Mamba...or should that be*...Sidewinder?!!!*





...(takes some getting used to LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...so _good luck_ folks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


mordy said:


> So I have this Telefunken Absolute Raritet *1938* EL12 tube:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Not _another_ one, m?...YIKES!!...just what is it with these tubes lol?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and yours certainly did look a 'rarity' lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 What to do?...frame it for posterity, with labelling like that!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I can pretty well guarantee its innards will look very much like an EL3N, but with a large round plate instead of an oval one! So spare yourself the anguish!...
  


connieflyer said:


> I would send it to Hypnos1 and ask him to breathe new life into it. I am sure he can do it!


 
  
 Hmmmm, cf...if it were newer I just _might_ have found a loose/touching wire somewhere inside the base, but if that oldie has indeed had much use, then no can do I'm afraid!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...just another tragedy alas!...


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 According to the seller, her grandfather measured the tube at 96% 30-40 years ago........


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Correct and H has already posted on Elise so I won't continue.  By the way, I also did the audio visual in school, much better than study hall.  Lots of times I told them I had a film to run, and just went down to the a/v room and napped, or invited young ladies in for a private screening.


 

 Wow. Back then I thought young ladies only purpose was to make us guys look stupid in class.
  
 PS. I need an IT assistant to keep up with all this


----------



## connieflyer

Sooo you are looking for an IT guy, if that refers to an Ignorant Turkey, I could probably do it for you


----------



## mordy

1949




 Now


----------



## UntilThen

Do you like tubes that are silent where the quiet parts are the blackest black and total silence. Look no further and make a pitch for my EL12s.


----------



## pctazhp

Smart Turkey says Black is Black


----------



## connieflyer

I don't remember them being that old. Of course it was an old 45 rpm so that would explain that. If you want it I can send it!  Are you sure this is not a video of @UntilThen and @hypnos1?  They look familiar!


----------



## connieflyer

After that I need some settlement music


----------



## connieflyer

Or go way back and see if you remember Don


----------



## pctazhp

OK CF. You and I have to be the only remaining occupants of Earth who remember Don Gibson, and you don't count for obvious reason.
  
 Did someone mention the sea????


----------



## connieflyer

Water water everywhere, it is poetic


----------



## connieflyer

Had enough yet? 1956 was such a good year too!


----------



## pctazhp

Oh I could go on with this all day and night (just kidding!!!). I have to go to the malt shop, so I'll leave you with this. But of course, you can have the last word ))))


----------



## vl4dimir

Guys a problem here : I put the EL12N in the back and EL3N in front but I get an annoying noise in left earpiece (like a continous 'bzzzzzz' & it stays at the same level no matter how loud the volume is turned on) ?


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Guys a problem here : I put the EL12N in the back and EL3N in front but I get an annoying noise in left earpiece (like a continous 'bzzzzzz' & it stays at the same level no matter how loud the volume is turned on) ?


 
  
 2 possibilities.
  
 1. Your tubes are bad. Where did you buy the EL3N from?
  
 2. Your tubes are not sitting correctly in the adapters.
  
 I've used EL3N and EL12N without problems.
  
 Ps... are your EL12N sitting flushed with the adapters. If not, you have the problematic adapters. Email Mrs X for a replacement.


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> 2 possibilities.
> 
> 1. Your tubes are bad. Where did you buy the EL3N from?
> 
> ...


 

 Here : http://www.acoustic-dimension.com
 Ok so I've just changed the place of the Elise and the noise is almost gone (if i tap the desk it still resonate like hell but the buzzz it's almost gone). Don't understand why, didn't have any problem with the stock tubes  ?
  
 maybe if get those http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/Accessoires/PiedsEnceinte/Oehlbach-Amortisseur-Resonance.html and buy another furniture later (planned to do so in the beginning)


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Here : http://www.acoustic-dimension.com
> *Ok so I've just changed the place of the Elise and the noise is almost gone* (if i tap the desk it still resonate like hell but the buzzz it's almost gone). Don't understand why, didn't have any problem with the stock tubes  ?
> 
> maybe if get those http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/Accessoires/PiedsEnceinte/Oehlbach-Amortisseur-Resonance.html and buy another furniture later (planned to do so in the beginning)


 
  
 That's the right place to buy EL3N.
  
 I did experience this once and was resolved by moving Elise slightly. Can't remember which tubes now.
  
 From my experience, I find the EL tubes quite microphonic when new. When I had the EL11 initially, I get feedback when I type. After 2 weeks, it seem to have gone away.
  
 Vibration damping feet may help but I've not tried it.


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> That's the right place to buy EL3N.
> 
> I did experience this once and was resolved by moving Elise slightly. Can't remember which tubes now.
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah I'll try it when coming back from holidays, it's not a huge investment


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Yeah I'll try it when coming back from holidays, it's not a huge investment


 
  
 Did you like what you hear from using EL3N and EL12N?


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> Did you like what you hear from using EL3N and EL12N?


 

 hell yeah 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 EDIT: it seems I have to turn the potentiometer less to get the same loudness, why is that ? are these tubes giving more power of something like that ?


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> hell yeah


 
  
 Man, don't follow Oskari. I need more than 2 words descriptions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ... ok I guess 'hell yeah' is a powerful descriptions of euphoria.


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> Man, don't follow Oskari. I need more than 2 words descriptions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I don't know much about sound or to describe it, as long as I like it i'm fine & and I didn't have more than 1hour to try it (and the stock elise only has been used 3h in 3 weeks due to my exams; thanks god it's finished now). However it adds a layer of clarity which I thought was lacking to the HD650 without making them fatiguing on bad recordings (a problem I had with a lot of headphones). Also the soundstage is bigger , but nothing too fancy (this is probably due the nature of the HD650 and their narrow soundstage)


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> hell yeah
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Mainly the EL12N. I did not find out the gain for those tubes but I suspect they are much higher than the Svetlana. They do sound louder for the same volume setting.


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> I don't know much about sound or to describe it, as long as I like it i'm fine & and I didn't have more than 1hour to try it (and the stock elise only has been used 3h in 3 weeks due to my exams; thanks god it's finished now). However it adds a layer of clarity which I thought was lacking to the HD650 without making them fatiguing on bad recordings (a problem I had with a lot of headphones). Also the soundstage is bigger , but nothing too fancy (this is probably due the nature of the HD650 and their narrow soundstage)


 
  
 That's a much better response 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  and start clocking the hours on Elise and the tubes now that the exams are over.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Mainly the EL12N. I did not find out the gain for those tubes but I suspect they are much higher than the Svetlana. They do sound louder for the same volume setting.


 
 Here's the _'characteristic gain'_ for some tubes:
  
 6AS7 (and equivalents,eg.6080),   2
  
 5998                                        5
  
 6BL7                                       15
  
 EL12                                       18
  
 6SN7                                      20
  
 EL3N                                       23
  
 EL11                                       25
  
 6N7                                        35
  
 C3g                                        42
  
 12AU7                                    20
  
 6DJ8/ECC88                             35
  
 12AT7                                     60
  
 12AX7                                    100
  
 Perceived loudness is not directly proportional to gain, and depending on the circuit, tubes with higher gain will not always sound louder.
 And that's about as much as I can comprehend about this complex subject.
  
 Also, I wouldn't recommend some of these tubes in Elise- they are just examples of different 'gains' in case some readers of this thread may have different amps which use these tubes.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Man, don't follow Oskari. I need more than 2 words descriptions. :etysmile:





[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/b_OZaZ2dUE4[/VIDEO]

_Mea culpa_


----------



## mordy

Ho Howie13,
  
 Thanks for the chart of the gain factor - saves me the trouble of looking up EL11 and EL12.
  
 The 6N23P (6DJ8 family) with a gain factor of 35 pairs nicely with 6AS7/6080 tubes.
  
 Another area that is very mysterious to me is the plate voltage of different tube types that can be used in the Elise. I have no idea of the effect , if any, of using EL12 tubes with different voltage ratings (250V, 375V and 425V ?).
  
 Another mysterious area to me is what happens to the plate voltage and the amp when you use dual power tubes....


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Ho Howie13,
> 
> Thanks for the chart of the gain factor - saves me the trouble of looking up EL11 and EL12.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes I wish I was more knowledgeable about all these things too.
 Synergy might be predictable from all these different measurements but I guess it's just trial and error for me.
 One thing I have noticed is the sound seems to suit driver tubes of higher gain than the powers.


----------



## pctazhp

So I checked tracking and my adapters arrived at the Scottsdale post office early this morning. In the meantime, EL11/Bendix6080 just keeps sounding better and better. No human should be entitled to enjoy such cosmic pleasure, let alone be dreaming of transcending to an entirely new galaxy.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Tried a number of combinations with the EL11 - all are very good, but with the Bendix it is sublime.


----------



## connieflyer

For you animal lovers I'm sure you understand. This is Connor's new way of getting my attention when he wants to have a treat play or go out you can't deny it he just sits right in the way


----------



## pctazhp

Connor is just practicing for when you get Euforia.
  
 By the way, are we allowed to mention "Euforia" on this thread? I get so confused with all the different threads. My Ignorant Turkey gave notice yesterday and walked out.


----------



## Audict123

I really sympathise with Mordy in trying to understand better what the electrical parameters of various tubes actually tell us about compatibility with Elise. I guess people like Lukasz and Glenn regularly have a laugh or shake their heads when they read our ramblings on this (to us) elusive matter. Being trained as a scientist, I nevertheless feel the urge to sink my teeth in it in a methodological, step by step way. But the learning proces is slow and probably I'll never reach a satisfying level. At least there are no exams, so I can 'study' with headphones on without penalty.
  
 Elise is designed as a driver - cathode follower combination. I read somewhere that these can operate in a _relatively _wide range of conditions - much wider than amps with transformers at the output. That at least partly explains Elise tube rolling potential. Second, the voltages applied in Elise are relatively conservative. I measured all these voltages but won't list them here. It's part of Feliks secret recepy for Elise's delicious sound.
  
 Mordy: the plate voltage (upper) ratings  (250V, 375V and 425V etc) are all on the safe side as the voltage that Elise applies to the plate is lower. Whether you insert a single triode or dual triode in a socket doesn't matter for the plate voltage - it stays the same. That is NOT necessarily true for all voltages applied to the tube. Elise uses so called 'cathode biasing', in which a resistor to the cathode increases it's voltage relative to the grid. The grid is therefore (*relatively*) negative, lowering the current flow between plate and cathode. This relative negative grid voltage may actually change between single and dual triode tubes, depending on how you connect your single triode!  I like to use single triodes like 6J5 (half a SN7) as drivers. In my own adapters, I connect these to BOTH cathode connectors of Elise's sockets, so two both cathode resistors. As these are parallel, it halves the cathode resistance. As a result, the voltage difference between cathode and grid halves and the grid is less effective in reducing the current. So, the current in the single triode tube is higher than that of 'half' a 6SN7. Perhaps not exactly double, but close. The end result is that there is not much difference in loudness. Is this all correct? Don't take my word for it! If it is, it's because Glenn put me in the right direction (thanks Glenn!). The advantage of the dual triodes like 6SN7 is that each half works less hard (which may translate to longer life) and that noise is reduced.  I like 6J5's a lot and therefore decided to combine the best of both worlds: I built a 'subchassis' that allows me to run connect two 6J5 sockets to each of Elise's 6SN7 sockets. It looks like this:
  

  
 Looks superhot if you ask me. Opulent  And it sounds like that too. PS to Hypnos1: electrically, this is actually 'just a normal 6SN7' setup so I thought I could break the one tube for each socket rule for once 
  
  
 I love the sound of these Visseaux tubes. They add spark and energy to breathe life in the HD650's and their bass is brutal. The front tubes are naked versions of the 6J5MGT in which I removed the outer aluminium can surrounding the glass.
  
 Sorry to all who find this boring stuff. And I'm not trying to lecture - no license, no level for that! I'm just trying to share the little things I hope I learned to those who also like to understand what's going on while tube rolling.


----------



## Oskari

Phil Collins is sounding dääm good tonight.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDNpNP35A_8[/VIDEO]

_Do you remember_


----------



## mordy

Hi Audict123,
  
 Thanks for your answer. Your set-up looks really neat!
  
 I cannot say that I fully understand what you are writing, but I have a lot of respect for Glenn. There are adapters available for 2 x 6J5 to 6SN7. In what way are these different than what you built (except for aesthetics)?
  





  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-Socket-DIY-Audio-Vacuum-Tube-Adapter-Socket-Converter-6J5-6J5-TO-6SN7-1PC-/232219290610?hash=item3611592bf2:g:W50AAOSw44BYizj8
  
 I know that DL started out using the CJ5 tubes, but has since changed to others.
  
 It is really hard to find CJ5 tubes on eBay - all that come up are parts for the CJ5 Jeep lol!
  
 BTW, what kind are power tubes do you use?


----------



## Audict123

Electrically, the adapters are the same. But the dual commercial ones may not fit properly, Elises sockets are too close. If they do fit, I feel the aesthetics are not great, particularly the hight. All personal of course. Dunno why DL didn't like the 6J5's. I know he owned the Visseaux too. I have quite some tubes for Elise. To me, these Visseaux 6J5 come closest to the fabulous FDD20, without the need for an external 12v transformer.

Look for 6J5 not CJ5 to get rid of Jeep hits . The powers in this setup are stock 6N13C. These Russians are underestimated in my view. In this combo, the synergy is great.


----------



## Audict123

Btw, if you want to use a single 6J5 to start with, you can use the ECC33 to ECC31 adapter (also used for 6N7 tube) too. The pinout is identical for the 5 6J5 pins.


----------



## DavidA

@Audict123, that is some great DIY work on the plate adapter.  Very impressive


----------



## Audict123

Thanks @DavidA. One more pic, top view:

  
  
 Hypnos1 will be proud of me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




: I used solid core silver wire in teflon tubing to make the adapters. The wires run from the central sockets with the 'coke shape' tubes to the front sockets below the surface of the black bottom plate. Of course, carefully shielded from the metal surface of Elise. I put a lot of effort in this only because I really adore these variants of the Visseaux 6J5. BTW: the coke bottle shape 6J5G are very hard to get/expensive but the 6J5MG or 6J5MGT are a bit easier to get and cheaper and sound 100% identical in all my tests.


----------



## mordy

Having fun with my EL11 TFK drivers. They bring out the beautiful qualities in the power tubes. Since they are from the early 40's I decided to pair them with the only other 40's tubes that I have - the 6N7 tubes - in this case a pair of 1942 RCAs. I think the term used is _correct _in the world of restoration.
  
 These tubes belong to the same family as the 6N7G and 6N7GT tubes. However, the 6N7 has no visual appeal at all since it is an all metal black tube without any glass and tube glow magic. The Mazda/Visseux 6N7G tubes from the same family are highly regarded, especially for their sound stage - a wall of sound.
  
 Adding the 6N7 to the 6BL7 together with the TFK drivers results in an endearing sound - light and punchy with a very wide sound stage. Very good;  not sublime, but fun.
  
 Since multiple tubes tubes are relegated to no mans land, I am only showing three tubes:


----------



## thatonenoob

Hello folks!  Just wanted to check-in on the official Feliks Elise thread with an unboxing video I just did.  It's going to be for the 2017 "updated" elise, but the externals should more or less be the same.  Anyways, first impressions are positive -I was impressed by the Espressivo for its price-performance ratio, and the Elise is just a whole step up.  Look forward to spending more time doing critical listening with this amp before posting a more complete review.  Cheers!


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Having fun with my EL11 TFK drivers. They bring out the beautiful qualities in the power tubes. Since they are from the early 40's I decided to pair them with the only other 40's tubes that I have - the 6N7 tubes - in this case a pair of 1942 RCAs. I think the term used is _correct _in the world of restoration.
> 
> These tubes belong to the same family as the 6N7G and 6N7GT tubes. However, the 6N7 has no visual appeal at all since it is an all metal black tube without any glass and tube glow magic. The Mazda/Visseux 6N7G tubes from the same family are highly regarded, especially for their sound stage - a wall of sound.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy
  
 That's a very interesting, novel set-up. Which adapter do you use to connect both the 6N7 and 6BL7 tubes together into Elise?
 I think it's still okay to post about dual adapters/multiple tubes on the earlier thread: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/13290#post_13223481


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks @thatonenoob  for the unboxing video. There has been only one other known unboxing by @hypnos1 because the rest of us were just too excited to rip the box apart, let alone take a video of it.


----------



## thatonenoob

untilthen said:


> Thanks @thatonenoob  for the unboxing video. There has been only one other known unboxing by @hypnos1 because the rest of us were just too excited to rip the box apart, let alone take a video of it.


 
 Haha no problem...spent the evening with it, and with the amp sounding as good as it is right now out of the box - I can understand why so many are just cutting to the chase.  Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen

thatonenoob said:


> Haha no problem...spent the evening with it, and with the amp sounding as good as it is right now out of the box - I can understand why so many are just cutting to the chase.  Cheers!


 
  
 I too am surprised to hear my inner voice saying 'it's sounding as good as it is one year down the track'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'll get to hear what the Psvane CV181 drivers sound like when I get my Euforia. It will be put through the pace with both Elise and Euforia, along with my latest craze tubes, EL11 and EL12N.
  
 Look forward to your review of the upgraded Elise. You did a good job with the Expressivo review.


----------



## pctazhp

I do my best thinking early in the morning. This morning my best thinking reminded me of these strong and wise words. @connieflyer keep this in mind when you are out walking Connor.


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> So I checked tracking and my adapters arrived at the Scottsdale post office early this morning. In the meantime, EL11/Bendix6080 just keeps sounding better and better. No human should be entitled to enjoy such cosmic pleasure, *let alone be dreaming of transcending to an entirely new galaxy.*


 
  
 Aaaahhh, pct...how does the saying go?...*"To infinity and beyond"!!!*...according to dear Buzz, anyway lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. I really am getting worried now about your poor ol' BP when you-know-who arrives..._*please*_ make sure you're sitting (if not _lying_) down once you put on those cans!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Quote 





audict123 said:


> Thanks @DavidA. One more pic, top view:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So, A123..._that's_ what you've been up to - *very impressive...well done!* A lot of effort indeed...not to mention skill!...
  
 But now, not to be outdone by @UntilThen in the Slave Master stakes, I'm afraid I have to ask you to get adapting some EL11 and12s to compare with your setup...and _*no excuses!!*_





...should prove _*very*_ interesting LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!
  
 ps. Glad, also, you used decent wire...I personally believe this makes quite a difference compared to either cheaper wire, or printed circuits...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


thatonenoob said:


> Haha no problem...spent the evening with it, and with the amp sounding as good as it is right now out of the box - I can understand why so many are just cutting to the chase.  Cheers!


 
  
 Well done to you too, t-o-n...and can't wait to hear your verdict after much longer burn-in, if you're that impressed already...and 'just' stock tubes to boot lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


untilthen said:


> I too am surprised to hear my inner voice saying 'it's sounding as good as it is one year down the track'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo UT...really looking forward to your side-by-side comparison - as with pctazhp, I suggest you're sitting down at the time lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 ps. I believe you mean the stock PsVane 6SN7s in Euforia, as opposed to the CV181?...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> ps. I really am getting worried now about your poor ol' BP when you-know-who arrives..._*please*_ make sure you're sitting (if not _lying_) down once you put on those cans!!!


 
   
Are there other positions?


----------



## pctazhp

I know this shouldn't bother me, but I don't understand why every HD800S owner doesn't follow my advice. Don't they know who I am???? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also I wish I knew how to substitute a clever word in place of the link 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/785577/sennheiser-hd800s-unveiled/5805#post_13225411


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I know this shouldn't bother me, but I don't understand why every HD800S owner doesn't follow my advice. Don't they know who I am????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Correct. Elise is perfectly suited for HD800, HD800S and T1. I've heard the V281 with T1 but I reckon Elise is way more satisfying for my ears. There's just no substitute for tube amp warm euphony.
  
 So who's going to drive you home?


----------



## LaCuffia

thatonenoob said:


> Hello folks!  Just wanted to check-in on the official Feliks Elise thread with an unboxing video I just did.  It's going to be for the 2017 "updated" elise, but the externals should more or less be the same.  Anyways, first impressions are positive -I was impressed by the Espressivo for its price-performance ratio, and the Elise is just a whole step up.  Look forward to spending more time doing critical listening with this amp before posting a more complete review.  Cheers!




Too bad you don't have the Z1R to run it with the Elise. I think it's a great combo. It runs against conventional wisdom to pair a headphone with a warmer sound signature with a tube amp but I think the Elise is on par with the Sony TA ZH1ES, at least for my turntable set up. I might be returning the TA actually. That's how good the Elise is.


----------



## UntilThen

lacuffia said:


> Too bad you don't have the Z1R to run it with the Elise. I think it's a great combo. It runs against conventional wisdom to pair a headphone with a warmer sound signature with a tube amp but I think the Elise is on par with the Sony TA ZH1ES, at least for my turntable set up. I might be returning the TA actually. That's how good the Elise is.


 
  
 Sony's not going to be pleased that you're happier partnering the Z1R with Elise rather than their TA ZH1ES 
  
 Interesting headphone though. Would love to hear it one day. 100db sensitivity and 64ohm impedance. Elise should be able to handle that well.
  
 Just remember that you can tailor Elise sound to be less warm with tubes.


----------



## LaCuffia

untilthen said:


> Sony's not going to be pleased that you're happier partnering the Z1R with Elise rather than their TA ZH1ES
> 
> Interesting headphone though. Would love to hear it one day. 100db sensitivity and 64ohm impedance. Elise should be able to handle that well.
> 
> Just remember that you can tailor Elise sound to be less warm with tubes.


 

 My wallet will be happier....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.   Look at the price of the TA compared to the Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

lacuffia said:


> My wallet will be happier....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wallet aside I think you will like what you hear with EL11 and EL12N.
  
 The tube combos that you have (6xEL3N and EL3N / 5998) are on the warm side but they are a lovely tone no doubt. Sporky spoke to me via PMs on those tubes before purchasing. 
  
 I do know that you have the Visseaux 6N7g and that with 5998 will give you a brighter tone with good dynamics.


----------



## LaCuffia

Unfortunately the Visseaux must have been damaged in transit because they crackle and break up in one channel of the headphones. I haven't used them since. 

I know this has been discussed countless times but is there a good driver tube pair under $50 and accessible that would give more clarity up top but still maintain a powerful bass punch?


----------



## DecentLevi

lacuffia said:


> Unfortunately the Visseaux must have been damaged in transit because they crackle and break up in one channel of the headphones. I haven't used them since.
> 
> I know this has been discussed countless times but is there a good driver tube pair under $50 and accessible that would give more clarity up top but still maintain a powerful bass punch?




Most definitely the Tungsram E80CC or RCA 12AV7, uses the 12AV7 adapter. Search impressions on recent pages. Gotta run


----------



## mordy

Or 6N23P with adapter


----------



## mordy

Hi LaCuffia,
  
 Before you give up on the Visseux tubes, did you try to switch sockets? Sometimes the contact needs something.
  
 Next, did you clean the pins? A gentle scraping with a pen knife or similar may do the trick.
  
 If the tube really is defective, the seller should back it up (or PayPal/eBay).


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 Before I describe my adapters, I may need a little help.
  
 The 6N7 needs an ECC31 to ECC32 adapter to be used as a driver in the Elise. Do you need this adapter to use it as a power tube? In my trial I used it without, but I can't figure out if it is needed in the power tube socket.
  
 Anybody?


----------



## Audict123

@Lacuffia: I recognize the symptoms you describe with 6N7G. The tubes themselves may well be ok. Some Elise owners, including myself, just have no luck with these as drivers (whether Visseaux or Fivre or..,). I think they represent a borderline between on-spec and off-spec for Elise. It also depends on the pairing with power tubes. In my case, I get the best result with the stock Russian powers. Did you try that combo?


----------



## Audict123

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> Before I describe my adapters, I may need a little help.
> 
> ...


 Carefull Mordy. You need ECC31 to ECC33! adapters. Regardless if you put the 6N7 in the front or back sockets.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Are there other positions?


 
  
 Well, pct, I do believe traditionally "swinging from the chandelier" has been associated with moments of pure bliss lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...but I personally wouldn't know about such things!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...(or if I ever did, I've long since forgotten about them...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). My advice stands....!!!


----------



## LaCuffia

Thanks for suggestion regarding Visseaux issues. Will try them out.

I got them from Spork67 and he was already generous with providing other tubes so it was no issue for me if they didn't work. If further attempts to use them are unsuccessful that's perfectly fine. It doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

Hey @LaCuffia, just a quick observation...with an amp the quality of Elise, why skimp on the drivers lol? I personally can never really understand the reasoning behind these desires...even though I myself have been guilty of this in the past (but admittedly with an inferior amp!) - hence a whole pile of tubes in the attic I can't even be bothered to put on ebay, alas!!


----------



## mordy

Hi Audict123,
  
 Thanks for the advice. Said and done.
  
 BUT, there is such a loud hum now that I can't listen to it. So back to bliss - EL11+Bendix.....


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys...for anyone interested in the latest updates on my ST-shaped RFT EL12 powers, best if I post a link to the Euforia thread...post #609, and subsequently...http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/600
  
 Might be useful for those lucky enough to find ones that work properly lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


----------



## thatonenoob

lacuffia said:


> Too bad you don't have the Z1R to run it with the Elise. I think it's a great combo. It runs against conventional wisdom to pair a headphone with a warmer sound signature with a tube amp but I think the Elise is on par with the Sony TA ZH1ES, at least for my turntable set up. I might be returning the TA actually. That's how good the Elise is.


 
 Yes I would like to see how the Z1R sounds on the elise.  Though I do have to wonder - I've heard that the Elise works nicely with lower impedance cans as well, but with an output Z of around 40 the damping factor would definitely be something to consider.  I'll probably measure when I've the time, but so far have you heard any characteristic problems of an impedance mismatch with the Z1R?
  
 Also, I didn't quite get around to a full-on review of the TA-ZH1ES, but I do find that a multibit DAC with the Elise made a far more lasting impression than the Sony DAC/Amp.  Sort of smooths out the characteristic exaggerated sound of multibit.  The result being, excellent.  Not to come to a sweeping generalization, but FPGA sound hasn't always worked for me.


----------



## Spork67

lacuffia said:


> Thanks for suggestion regarding Visseaux issues. Will try them out.
> 
> I got them from Spork67 and he was already generous with providing other tubes so it was no issue for me if they didn't work. If further attempts to use them are unsuccessful that's perfectly fine. It doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the Elise.


 
  
 The Visseaux worked fine when I had them. Might be something as simple as a socket switch for them to work again. They sounded good and looked beautiful, bit I preferred the EL3N in the drivers seat. Please don't use your Z1R's while troubleshooting those tubes! Just in case - I'd feel awful if a dicky tube cooked your cans.


thatonenoob said:


> lacuffia said:
> 
> 
> > Too bad you don't have the Z1R to run it with the Elise. I think it's a great combo. It runs against conventional wisdom to pair a headphone with a warmer sound signature with a tube amp but I think the Elise is on par with the Sony TA ZH1ES, at least for my turntable set up. I might be returning the TA actually. That's how good the Elise is.
> ...


 
  
 When I first got Elise I was using even lower (25ohm) z HPs. They were "out of spec." (32-600ohm) but FA assured me they would work fine and not cause (or be) damaged.
 The sounded great with Elise, much better than they did on mt SS amp. Although they weren't in the same league as the T1's.
 Elise has the flexibility of a teenage girl gymnast, both in the tubes she can use and the HPs she can drive.


----------



## LaCuffia

Hey Spork67...nice to hear from you! I actually got the Visseaux to work today by cleaning them up and switching adapters. It definitely offers a brighter sound. I'll have to give it some more time to adjust to the change though. Bass is a bit less pronounced.


----------



## aqsw

spork67 said:


> The Visseaux worked fine when I had them. Might be something as simple as a socket switch for them to work again. They sounded good and looked beautiful, bit I preferred the EL3N in the drivers seat. Please don't use your Z1R's while troubleshooting those tubes! Just in case - I'd feel awful if a dicky tube cooked your cans.
> *
> When I first got Elise I was using even lower (25ohm) z HPs. They were "out of spec." (32-600ohm) but FA assured me they would work fine and not cause (or be) damaged.
> The sounded great with Elise, much better than they did on mt SS amp. Although they weren't in the same league as the T1's.
> Elise has the flexibility of a teenage girl gymnast, both in the tubes she can use and the HPs she can drive.*




I agree, alot of people disregard my Ether Cs. I returned my T1s. I think the Ethers just sound better. I know this won't go well though. Alot of T1 guys here.:


----------



## aqsw

Got my El12Ns today. Now I have to mait for xulingmrs to get back so I can order the adapters. They look nice. A little short,but I'll make them look bigger with a tube saver.


----------



## mordy

Hi LC,
  
 Glad you got the Visseux tubes to work. These tubes produce a beautiful sound stage - a wall of sound.


----------



## LaCuffia

Thanks ...one thing I noticed is that they have more background noise than say the stock Tung Sol drivers at same volume level. Not enough to distract when playing music but definitely there. I guess it might be attributed in part to the clarity the tubes bring to the higher frequencies.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> Before I describe my adapters, I may need a little help.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes you would need the same adapter for both power and driver sockets.
 I think you said you were getting loud hum now with this set-up. 
 If so, I'm very sorry about that.


----------



## richdytch

Hi - could anyone answer a query about date codes on RCA 6080 tubes? I bought a few some time ago, and the internet resources I've been able to find suggest that RCA date codes are two letters - for example "FN". 
  
 But my tubes have numbers - the one I'm looking at now says "5-52". Any ideas? Might these be non-RCA tubes rebranded? 
  
 Thanks, Rich


----------



## Oskari

That 5-52 is a Y-WW date. In this case it means Dec 55.


----------



## richdytch

oskari said:


> That 5-52 is a Y-WW date. In this case it means Dec 55.




Great, thank you Oskari.


----------



## HOWIE13

aqsw said:


> Got my El12Ns today. Now I have to mait for xulingmrs to get back so I can order the adapters. They look nice. A little short,but I'll make them look bigger with a tube saver.


 
 Good News- MrsX appears open for business again today after the Chinese New Year holiday.


----------



## HOWIE13

lacuffia said:


> Hey Spork67...nice to hear from you! I actually got the Visseaux to work today by cleaning them up and switching adapters. It definitely offers a brighter sound. I'll have to give it some more time to adjust to the change though. Bass is a bit less pronounced.


 
 Good to learn your Visseaux are working again.
  
 I was going to suggest if they didn't work and you were considering H1's advice to spend more than $50 on a pair of drivers that the Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT231 might well suit your sonic requirements. 
  
 I've been pairing them with EL12N powers. Wonderful Elise sound.


----------



## LaCuffia

What's a reasonable price for a Ken Rad pair? I see a pair on eBay for $173 but prices are all over the place. There is also a distinction between clear and dark glass versions but don't know if one or the other is the one recommended.


----------



## Oskari

richdytch said:


> Great, thank you Oskari.




You're welcome. I should have added that this code is typical of RCA for this time frame.


----------



## richdytch

lacuffia said:


> What's a reasonable price for a Ken Rad pair? I see a pair on eBay for $173 but prices are all over the place. There is also a distinction between clear and dark glass versions but don't know if one or the other is the one recommended.




I hunted around and managed to get a pair of 1944 clear glass KR vt231 for around £85 as I remember. And they are really nice.


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/bzLd2MDAHK8[/VIDEO]

_People Get Ready_


----------



## Oskari

^ 45 people disliked that on youtube. What is wrong with people?


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> ^ 45 people disliked that on youtube. What is wrong with people?


 
  
 Eva's such a talent and what a voice.


----------



## Oskari

She'll be missed eternally.


----------



## DavidA

@Oskari, haven't heard Eva for ages, thanks for the reminder about great her voice was


----------



## mordy

Hi LaCuffia,
  
 At one point I was shopping for the Ken Rad 6SN7 and from what I read the earlier ones from the 40's are better and that it does not matter clear or smoked glass, although the smoked glass fetch higher prices.
  
 IMHO the tube that a commercial seller wants to sell you for a high price is the same one as somebody selling off his/her grandfather's radio repair shop at a much more reasonable price. With patience you can find these at a good price.
  
 You may want to check European sellers as well, which means going to the Polish eBay and other countries (read that Polish eBay lists from many different European countries.)
  
 I have not heard the Ken Rads, but I have a hunch that the RCA 6SN7GTB with the top heater wire are equally good.


----------



## louisxiawei

Hey gents,
  
 Just want to keep you updated another good Elise match. I recently upgrade my exasound e12 DAC to T+A DAC8 DSD.
  
 Feliks Elise exposes the SQ improvement very well. 
  
 I would strongly recommend this dac to you if you use PC as your music source since its DSD512 technology (True one bit converter) really shines!
  
 I dare to say that this is "the" best price/performance PC HIFI dac at the moment. The DSD512 sound outperforms its retail price too much in my opinion.


----------



## angpsi

So I got the much awaited package with my EL12spez adapters from the post office today, along with a pair of revised EL11/12–no tower of Pisa–adapters. Good news, the EL tubes sit flush on the latter.
  
 Bad news: the EL12spez actually do light up, but with a significant deal of buzzing audible on my headphones. I remember reading about buzzing sound being addressed with a simple cleaning of the base—or am I utterly wrong? The buzzing is [very] loud and clear, so much that it looks that something is wrong with the circuit.
  
 #EDIT: both channels buzz; tried switching them but buzzing still persists. Might the cleaning process also need to involve the anode cap?
  
 Any ideas?
  
  
  
  
 Here are some photos of the base, if you can make out any particular issues with them. If all they need is cleaning, can you point me towards / advise me on a how–to?
  
  
 Consolation prize: at least now I've got four regular adapters to play with the EL11/12n combo... I see @hypnos1says the tubes need many days to open up their sound, so I won't be posting any descriptions any time soon. @UntilThen, given your experience with the n's do you share @hypnos1's assessment?
 Should note that MsX is sending me a revised pair of regular adapters free of charge; great service!


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  all tubes would benefit from burn in for sure, particularly the pentodes used as triodes-strapped in Elise. As with the EL3N, both the EL11 and EL12N on the 1st day sound rather prominent in the highs and your ears are assaulted by the superb instruments separation and bigger than life presence. However you should be able to pick up the tubes' sonic signatures after a few days and as your ears get adjusted to it. These tubes are rather microphonic though but that will settle down. Remember also that auto self biasing is at work so give it time to settle down.
  
 Loud buzzing on the EL12spez are not a good sign. Try shifting Elise a little with her position and see if that will eliminate the buzz. I use Deoxit on my tube pins to clean it before use. You can try cleaning your pins and the top metal. I remember @aqsw using 6F8G and getting hum too. He gave up on them in the end.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Loud buzzing on the EL12spez are not a good sign. Try shifting Elise a little with her position and see if that will eliminate the buzz. I use Deoxit on my tube pins to clean it before use. You can try cleaning your pins and the top metal. I remember @aqsw using 6F8G and getting hum too. He gave up on them in the end.


 
 But can they _both_ be bad tubes? The effect is not exclusive to one channel. I guess I'll try cleaning, then contact the seller for a refund?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> But can they _both_ be bad tubes? The effect is not exclusive to one channel. I guess I'll try cleaning, then contact the seller for a refund?


 

 Good advice from UT. But as best I can recall you are the only one to try the spez in Elise. Seems possible there is just some basic incompatibility.


----------



## UntilThen

Buy this for your tubes. Use the red to clean the pins and the gold to seal it. On badly oxidised pins, you will have to sand it and then seal it with the gold.
  

  
  
 I generally clean the bakelite base with a once over. Some tubes arrived with the base covered in dirt. 
  
 Saw your response just as I was about to post this. Loud hum can be due to bad tubes or ground loop or incompatiblity. If you're not comfortable with them, return for a refund. I would let @hypnos1  experiment with the EL12spez first. I believe he has just bought 2.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 In my experience some tubes hum and I can't get rid of the hum. Somebody else may be using the same tube without hum. I have a ton of wires in my room and no doubt ground loops but overall I do not have hum at normal listening levels. Turning up the volume to full on the Elise and my 110W power amp I usually get faint to noticeable hum, but this is at levels too loud to listen to. During normal listening I do not have noticeable hum.
  
 I don't know what the problem is - the pins look clean. My low cost cleaning device is to scrape the pins gently with a pen knife or similar. If the anode is corroded you may want to clean it as well.
  
 If there is no improvement I would switch the power tubes to driver tubes and the driver tubes into the power slots. What counts in the Elise is the total current draw, and this will not cause any problems as far as I know. It may not sound as good, but will perhaps tell you if something is wrong with the tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @angpsi...sorry to hear of your problems with the EL12 _Spezials_ - it certainly is turning out to be somewhat of a lottery with ST-shape 12s, to say the least!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 In theory, the top anode connection shouldn't really present problems if the connection is sound, but it appears it _*does*_, for some folks alas!
  
 As yours are new and untested adapters, I'm wondering whether these could in fact be the problem?...as @UntilThen mentions, I have myself bagged a couple of 'Spezials' and so will be seeing what happens with them in the next few weeks. You yourself might want to inform the seller of your problem, and that you're awaiting further confirmation of their suitability in our amps (although my Euforia's circuits have been altered a fair bit compared to Elise lol...). If mine prove OK, it could just point the finger at your adapters!...
  
 I presume you have ensured _good, tight_ connection of the top anode cap lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hope you gain satisfaction one way or another in the end...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## pctazhp

Seems like it has been a long time since we've talked about hum. Just like the good old days


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Buy this for your tubes. Use the red to clean the pins and the gold to seal it. On badly oxidised pins, you will have to sand it and then seal it with the gold.


 
  
 Is this comparable? http://www.analogueseduction.net/contact-treatment/blue-horizon-clean-it-contact-conditioner.html
 I haven't been able to find the deoxIT in Greece and this one is readily available for €20 (on the link it's 25)


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> I presume you have ensured _good, tight_ connection of the top anode cap lol?!!


 
  
 Yup! Tricky business these EL12s...


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Is this comparable?




Isopropanol will work just fine and costs less.


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> If the anode is corroded you may want to clean it as well.


 
  
 Nope, the anode looks good. At least, just as good as the pins.
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> If there is no improvement I would switch the power tubes to driver tubes and the driver tubes into the power slots. What counts in the Elise is the total current draw, and this will not cause any problems as far as I know. It may not sound as good, but will perhaps tell you if something is wrong with the tubes.


 
 Good idea, will try it and report, albeit probably not over the weekend...


----------



## angpsi

Double post...


----------



## angpsi

oskari said:


> Isopropanol will work just fine and costs less.


 

 Something like this, then?


----------



## Oskari

Yes.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Seems like it has been a long time since we've talked about hum. Just like the good old days


 
  
 Good old Humphrey is back.


----------



## Oskari

400 pages of this thread…


----------



## richard89

Hey all. I've been reading a lot about the EL11's and have come across this pair that looks very nice and interesting to me. Do you guys think they sound as good as the normal shaped EL11's? Here's the link. Thanks
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Telefunken-tubes-EL11-71-25-matched-pair-1950-/112271189523?hash=item1a23e26613:g:WL0AAOSw241YfOg4


----------



## pctazhp

richard89 said:


> Hey all. I've been reading a lot about the EL11's and have come across this pair that looks very nice and interesting to me. Do you guys think they sound as good as the normal shaped EL11's? Here's the link. Thanks
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Telefunken-tubes-EL11-71-25-matched-pair-1950-/112271189523?hash=item1a23e26613:g:WL0AAOSw241YfOg4


 

 I really wish I could answer your question. But I have no experience with these particular tubes and haven't seen any posts from anyone who does. Hopefully someone can give you some guidance.


----------



## richard89

pctazhp said:


> I really wish I could answer your question. But I have no experience with these particular tubes and haven't seen any posts from anyone who does. Hopefully someone can give you some guidance.


 
 Thanks for the the response @pctazhp, I've checked the thread and haven't found any post about these tubes either. The thing is these are dated 1950/1951 and during the same year there are the other shaped tube as well, so two different models during the same year.


----------



## thatonenoob

*@LaCuffia @DavidA*
  
 So I just emailed Feliks Audio, and Lukasz has kindly told me that the high effectiveness of the 6N13S tubes means that i can drive low impedance loads fairly well.  I've itchy hands...so before that I had actually done some experiments on my own with my low impedance TH900 on the LC (output impedance < 1 ohm), vs the Elise (40 ohms..ischk?)
  

 Difference of 3db in the bass area (blue, Elise vs red, LC).
  

 LC Distortion

 2nd Harmonic is not as good on the Elise.
  

 LC CSD
  

 Elise CSD


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Yup! Tricky business these EL12s...


 
 We had hum problems similar to this with Ember, using some of the more exotic tubes, especially those with wires connecting to the anode and grid.
 As has been suggested. moving the amp to a different location might help and switching off certain appliances and pulling plugs out of sockets sometimes worked too.
 Eventually, sometimes the hum could be removed by using a Faraday Cage.
 I think a problem is the wire acts as an aerial and picks up all sorts of random stuff that's around.


----------



## DavidA

@thatonenoob, i think that's why the HE-560 and LCD-2 didn't sound very good on the Elise (stock tubes) and the HD-650 was way too warm and muddy.  If you get a chance to test with different tubes I would be very interested in what happens to the plots?


----------



## HOWIE13

richard89 said:


> Hey all. I've been reading a lot about the EL11's and have come across this pair that looks very nice and interesting to me. Do you guys think they sound as good as the normal shaped EL11's? Here's the link. Thanks
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Telefunken-tubes-EL11-71-25-matched-pair-1950-/112271189523?hash=item1a23e26613:g:WL0AAOSw241YfOg4


 
 Very interesting.
  
 He's a helpful seller and you could ask him if they are identical electrically to the coke bottle shaped EL11 he has sold a lot of and generally work well in Elise.
  
 I have some similar shaped EL11 tubes, they look a bit fatter and shorter, and they are made by Philips ( I only have the seller's word for this as there's no manufacturer's name on the tube), and they are very nice indeed. A bit smoother than the T-F, a little less sparkle and detail, but with a very good sound-stage and presence. 
 They are a bit 'in between' the T-F EL11 and Philips EL3N I would say. Maybe those you have spotted might be similar. Pure speculation of course, fascinating though.


----------



## thatonenoob

davida said:


> @thatonenoob, i think that's why the HE-560 and LCD-2 didn't sound very good on the Elise (stock tubes) and the HD-650 was way too warm and muddy.  If you get a chance to test with different tubes I would be very interested in what happens to the plots?


 
 Will definitely look into it time permitting!  Though I suspect with this being an OTL amp the change may not be all that significant.


----------



## HOWIE13

thatonenoob said:


> Will definitely look into it time permitting!  Though I suspect with this being an OTL amp the change may not be all that significant.


 
 Any chance you could summarise your conclusions from these interesting tests, as, except for the frequency response one at the beginning, I don't really understand them? Thanks very much.


----------



## thatonenoob

howie13 said:


> Any chance you could summarise your conclusions from these interesting tests, as, except for the frequency response one at the beginning, I don't really understand them? Thanks very much.


 
 No prob!  For all tests, I ran a 20-20k Hz sweep on the TH900 (32 ohms) on each of the amplifiers.  Volume matched both with a 1 kHz signal (here it doesn't matter that much).  The main idea was to get a general sense of the  audible effects of low damping factor ratio with a low impedance dynamic headphone.  A rule of thumb is to make sure your headphone is at least 8 x the output impedance of your amp, otherwise some negative things may happen sonically.  In the case of the Elise, we're pairing an amp with 40 ohm output impedance with a dynamic headphone of 32 ohms.  Which would not be a good situation if we go by the rule of thumb.
  
 One of the things to note is that a planar headphone has a flat impedance curve.  It is a purely resistive load - and hence isn't affected by the amp's output impedance very much.  Planar drivers should not be affected in this situation and will continue to perform normally for the most part.  Low impedance dynamic headphones _are_ though.  This can traditionally manifest itself in poorly controlled bass, early rolloff, etc.  
  
 Now, from the FR, we are seeing a 3 dB bump in the bass.  From the distortion graph, we see that 2nd harmonic distortion has increased quite a bit (it's the red line).  This isn't great. I ran the test five times and each produced such negative effects seen.  Subjectively, it does seem that the TH900 sounds slightly off.  CSD (cumulative spectral decay) looks fine.  Nothing I can discern clearly.  
  
 The result is as expected.  There are sonic changes with pairing a low impedance headphone with this amplifier.  The bass boost may or may not be a good thing, but the increase in distortion definitely isn't in my opinion.  Not a 2nd harmonic, at least.  Needless to say, the Elise should be paired with a high impedance headphone for best results.  Something like the T1 that has an electrical impedance of up to 1400 Ohms in the 100 Hz region is a good match! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
*EDIT:* But I should say that the Elise does a commendable job in this area still.  It's trying _really hard_ to keep things together.  Some cases of impedance mismatch I've seen have been quite disastrous compared to this.


----------



## HOWIE13

thatonenoob said:


> No prob!  For all tests, I ran a 20-20k Hz sweep on the TH900 (32 ohms) on each of the amplifiers.  Volume matched both with a 1 kHz signal (here it doesn't matter that much).  The main idea was to get a general sense of the  audible effects of low damping factor ratio with a low impedance dynamic headphone.  A rule of thumb is to make sure your headphone is at least 8 x the output impedance of your amp, otherwise some negative things may happen sonically.  In the case of the Elise, we're pairing an amp with 40 ohm output impedance with a dynamic headphone of 32 ohms.  Which would not be a good situation if we go by the rule of thumb.
> 
> One of the things to note is that a planar headphone has a flat impedance curve.  It is a purely resistive load - and hence isn't affected by the amp's output impedance very much.  Planar drivers should not be affected in this situation and will continue to perform normally for the most part.  Low impedance dynamic headphones _are_ though.  This can traditionally manifest itself in poorly controlled bass, early rolloff, etc.
> 
> ...


 
 That's very good of you to explain this so clearly. Thanks for your patience. I understand more now. Cheers


----------



## HOWIE13

Very happy today.
  
 After an awful air journey crossing the jet stream yesterday I'm soothing my fractured nerves with the glorious sound of the first relatively identical pair of EL12ST (coke bottle shaped) tubes that I've found which work*, *and which arrived while I was away.
 What a refined, sweet, yet fast, sound. 
 They are Valvos, though I know that doesn't mean anything as far as who made them, but they don't look like my only other working EL12ST, which is a Siemens.
 Their plates are oval but I can't see them properly to discern anything else about them.
 They are lush, yet nimble, with cavernous sound-staging- paired with our old friends, Telefunken EL11 drivers.
 Photos, and then back to the music:
  

  
  

 They are not in reality leaning over like in this photo-actually they are sitting very neatly in their adapters I think MrsX must have fixed the adapters now so they sit flush.
  
  

  
 Apologies for the awful picture but if I use flash the glass just reflects the light and you see nothing.


----------



## pctazhp

@thatonenoob. Thanks for your report. I guess amp design isn't for the feint hearted or for us lawyers)))  I imagine there are many trade offs, including designing the amp to accommodate a broad range of headphones (of different impedances) yet maximizing performance within the range of headphones most likely to be used with the amp. It seems to me that the most popular headphones on this thread all are relatively high impedance phones. Money Bags @UntilThen hasn't sprung yet for a Utopia, so we don't know how that low impedance headphone would work with Elise.
  
@HOWIE13 Glad you had a safe, if not comfortable, flight. I hate flying. I can't afford to fly first-class like Daddy Warbucks UT, and I don't own my own Constellation like @connieflyer, so I cram my 6'4" frame into the airline's micro-seating arrangement and dream of filling class action lawsuits against all those evil airlines on behalf of us tall people.
  
 Thanks for the pictures. The top view of your EL12s doesn't look exactly like mine, but the family resemblances is there.
  
 Happy listening))))


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13  glad your Valvo EL12 is working. Looking forward to your assessments of EL12 vs EL12N.


----------



## hypnos1

Congrats on your successful ST 12s @HOWIE13...and really glad these are behaving themselves!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I too can't wait to hear your impressions of them vs the 12Ns...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alas, my own trials have hit a dead end - the second (used) 12N broke while trying to remove the old base...this is a tricky business lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. However, it was a good lesson in that it taught me two things...firstly, *not *to try removing this much shallower base than the ST12's(!!), and secondly to recommend folks to _*NOT*_ buy _used_ 'N' tubes...the wires inside the base are FAR too prone to corrosion - just stick to NEW (NOS) tubes, as the price is ridiculously cheap for such marvellous tubes (at the moment! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...CHEERS!...


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @HOWIE13  glad your Valvo EL12 is working. Looking forward to your assessments of EL12 vs EL12N.


 
 Thanks UT-I was expecting H1 to do that but he keeps breaking his tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(no offence meant, H1).
 Anyway, I would say on one day of listening the ST are smoother, more rounded and a bit warmer compared to the EL12N, yet they are very agile and nimble with that amazing cavernous sound-stage we just love with these tubes. 
 On the other hand the EL12N remains the more detailed tube with marginally better imaging, and is more dynamic.
 Neither has the unique engaging embrace of the EL3N tube but overall they give me more satisfaction.
 Actually the EL12N and EL12ST are not _that_ much different from each other, I mean not miles apart, and I've only used them as power tubes, with EL11 as drivers. Different drivers and longer usage might change things (as ever).
 Now I'll console H1.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Congrats on your successful ST 12s @HOWIE13...and really glad these are behaving themselves!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi H1
  
 I'm really sorry you lost another tube-that's a real bummer. However, from your pioneering work we have your first hand knowledge of the make-up of these tubes and your advice is always so very helpful.
 I posted some very brief and far too early assessments above (#6008) and will follow up if anything changes.
 Your advice to stick with new, NOS  EL12N (straight bottle) tubes is well taken. The ST coke bottle shaped ones are a bit of a lottery and one could spend a lot of time and money finding a decent pair that works. I guess I was quite lucky only having two duds prior to finding a similar working pair and obtained refunds on the two that didn't work.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Hi H1
> 
> I'm really sorry you lost another tube-that's a real bummer. However, from your pioneering work we have your first hand knowledge of the make-up of these tubes and your advice is always so very helpful.
> I posted some very brief and far too early assessments above (#6008) and will follow up if anything changes.
> Your advice to stick with new, NOS  EL12N (straight bottle) tubes is *well taken*. The ST coke bottle shaped ones are a bit of a lottery and one could spend a lot of time and money finding a decent pair that works. I guess I was quite lucky only having two duds prior to finding a similar working pair and obtained refunds on the two that didn't work.


 
 It's well taken my money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 NOS pair on order


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Anyway, I would say on one day of listening the ST are smoother, more rounded and a bit warmer compared to the EL12N, yet they are very agile and nimble with that amazing cavernous sound-stage we just love with these tubes.
> On the other hand the EL12N remains the more detailed tube with marginally better imaging, and is more dynamic.


 
  
 Thanks for the early impressions Howie. It's what I had expected. That the EL12 would be more full bodied while the EL12N more detailed and brighter. The difference is more subtle as you said. They are not that much different. I could see both having great appeal. Much will depend on one's setup and sound preference. Will see if you have anything new to report with further burn in.
  
 EL11 and EL12N sounds great with T1 listening to Eurythmics 'Don't Ask Me Why'. Yeah don't ask me why it sounds great. It just sound great. Annie Lennox's voice is laced with crystals. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I even recommend EL12N to Jozurr. I believe he will love the tone as that is what he is seeking.


----------



## pctazhp

Just want to tell the folks (that's Bill O'Reilly talk for those who watch Fox News) that this pair of EL12N is still available:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/380683432338?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Thanks for the early impressions Howie. It's what I had expected. That the EL12 would be more full bodied while the EL12N more detailed and brighter. The difference is more subtle as you said. They are not that much different. I could see both having great appeal. Much will depend on one's setup and sound preference. Will see if you have anything new to report with further burn in.
> 
> EL11 and EL12N sounds great with T1 listening to Eurythmics 'Don't Ask Me Why'. Yeah don't ask me why it sounds great. It just sound great. Annie Lennox's voice is laced with crystals.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes it sure is about synergy. On another thread I explained putting T1 on my head was like opening the door to a recording studio or concert hall. Spookily realistic, especially with RFT NOS EL12N powers and Telefunken EL11 drivers, though I really need to spend more time exploring other driver options with the EL12N powers.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Just want to tell the folks (that's Bill O'Reilly talk for those who watch Fox News) that this pair of EL12N is still available:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/380683432338?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
 Well spotted. They have sold very quickly-wonder why?


----------



## UntilThen

I bought from Rose Mary. It's cheaper and NOS too and there's only 3 left. 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-NOS-EL12N-EL12-N-RSD-TUBES-MADE-BY-RFT-GERMANY-BOXED-/222375626668?hash=item33c69ec7ac:g:KDEAAOSwa-dWlP9J
  
 There is even a song for Rosemary.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I bought from Rose Mary. It's cheaper and NOS too and there's only 3 left.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-NOS-EL12N-EL12-N-RSD-TUBES-MADE-BY-RFT-GERMANY-BOXED-/222375626668?hash=item33c69ec7ac:g:KDEAAOSwa-dWlP9J
> 
> There is even a song for Rosemary.




 AH-one of my all time favourite songs! Thanks for posting.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I really need to spend more time exploring other driver options with the EL12N powers.


 
  
 Careful what drivers you explore with EL12N. You might open doors that never let you return.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> AH-one of my all time favourite songs! Thanks for posting.


 
  
 You know this song? Hmmm, we're more alike than different.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Careful what drivers you explore with EL12N. You might open doors that never let you return.


 
 Yes I better wait until you  get your Euforia then I'll be able to disappear through the door without dragging you along with me.LOL.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> You know this song? Hmmm, we're more alike than different.


 
 I seem to recall you've said that before.


----------



## pctazhp

I want a song for my seller also 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ah, I've got one))))   My seller has a front door. My song is "Let Me Call You Hinges Because You're Something To A-Door"


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I want a song for my seller also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad to oblige. Doors will sing for you.


----------



## pctazhp

I remember someone posted this video way back in the second Elise thread because the two performers seem to be having so much fun. It's a feel-good video for the weekend


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Could you explain to me why a used EL12N would be more prone to corrosion than a new one? I thought that corrosion (which I have only seen on the external pins) had to do with how the tube was stored.
  
 And, the external pins can be cleaned for improved contact in the socket, but how would corrosion effect an internal wire if the solder points are good?
  
 Hope you don't mind me asking.....


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi folks - well let me add yet another misadventure  of ST-shaped EL12 rolling to the community.
  
 Incoming today was a single Valvo EL12 / 375 that was supposed to replace one of the below shown pair on the left that had mysteriously died.
  
 
  
 Switched it on and we actually have lights - hooray!... but hold on here now I notice the internals of the left tube has a beautiful looking flourescent blue glow inside the oval plate in addition to the top red glowing rod - but the one on the right lacked this blue enigma... That's when I noticed these aren't completely matched as I thought: I was pairing a Valvo EL12 / 375 DDED (the one with the blue glow) with a Valvo EL12 / 375 "base version".
  
 Then was time for the music after letting these 'hit & miss' tubes warm up without headphones in case of any sudden 'fireworks'. First 1-2 minutes I got sound out of both channels, but to me is sounded considerably dark and with moderately soft dynamics. Several minutes in, one of the channels (the EL12 DDED side) decided to retire early - permanently. This tube went straight into recluse at this first sign of debauchery, LOL. In other words the EL12 DDED tube caused a massive channel imbalance to the effect of 95% quieter than the other channel. Swapping the tube L/R confirmed this, and later pairing it with other tubes has shown this failure as well.
  
 All three of these tubes were in pristine condition, either NOS or used extremely lightly, yet still had an issue. Seeing how of my EL12 / 375 DDED pair one never lit up and the other went into recluse, I'm wondering if the problem everyone else has been experiencing was only with this specific type of ST-EL12. Because the "base version" (minus "DDED") has been working just fine - though for me the signature seems a bit too dark even for my HD-600's. I guess we can just say DDED = DEAD.


----------



## DecentLevi

The one that was working, the Valvo EL12 "base version" was from Langrex tubes in the UK, a very reliable seller. No big deal though cause I've got moar great power tubes


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> The one that was working, the Valvo EL12 "base version" was from Langrex tubes in the UK, a very reliable seller. No big deal though cause I've got moar great power tubes


 
 I guess the combo of variable manufacturers of 'Valvos' and the 'hit and miss' nature of EL12ST coke bottle shaped tubes is going to be risky. I see, for instance, your new Valvo has a different coding system from your 'DEAD/ DDED ones, so maybe a different manufacturer or factory? Not clear why you call it a 'base version' though.
  
 All I can say from my recent personal experience is I've had two bad EL12ST's, one a Valvo and one a Telefunken. 
 I have a good Siemens EL12ST and two good Valvos (codes 7DU and 1DW).
  
 I was listening to the Valvos most of yesterday with Telefunken EL11 drivers and the sound is excellent.
 Smooth, refined, totally controlled extended treble, slightly forward, beautifully projected mid-range, great for voice and chorus, and eloquent, agile deep bass. Imaging is excellent in a massive deep sound-stage.
  
 However, thus far, for me, I prefer, by a small margin, the greater clarity and dynamics of the RFT  EL12N, straight bottles. I am talking about small differences of degrees of excellence here though. I would be more than happy with either. Sound-wise they are both 'second to none', in my experience. (I've never heard the legendary GEC's or Bendix tubes, though).
  
 Given the capricious nature of these coke bottle shaped EL12ST's  and the relative reliability of the NOS straight bottle RFT EL12N tubes, together with their wonderful sound, to my ears these are the ones to go for.
 They also make very good drivers in Elise, as long as they are not used with a pair of 2.5A power tubes, such as 6AS7/6080 etc, as that would exceed 6.8A total current.
  
 In any event, in Elise the straight bottle RFT EL12N's exceptional qualities, for me, are best elicited when they are used as power tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> The one that was working, the Valvo EL12 "base version" was from Langrex tubes in the UK, a very reliable seller. No big deal though cause I've got moar great power tubes


 
 Just had a closer look at the photo of those twin Valvo's you originally bought and have subsequently failed to function.
  
 Am I reading 40% and 50% on the boxes. If so, does that refer to the cathode emission current % of new, as it usually does when written like that on the box or tube?
  
 If so, I'm not at all surprised they didn't last very long. I wouldn't advise purchasing anything below about 65%, unless it's a very rare tube at bargain basement price.


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13  well presented impressions. Your description of EL12N is consistent with what I hear. According to my ears, they are better than my favorite power tubes, Bendix 6080wb and 5998.
  
 I think the high failure rate of the EL12 is because these are very old tubes from the 40s and 50s. There are really not that many left if you look at eBay. For some of the better condition ones, the asking price is already pretty steep.
  
 I have 2 that has no sound. One is a Telefunken and the other RFT. I've been refunded for both and have 2 more Telefunken incoming. That is the last of the EL12 that I will be trying.
  
 I'm happy with the EL12N and will continue to use that. There's great synergy paired with EL11.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @HOWIE13  well presented impressions. Your description of EL12N is consistent with what I hear. According to my ears, they are better than my favorite power tubes, Bendix 6080wb and 5998.
> 
> I think the high failure rate of the EL12 is because these are very old tubes from the 40s and 50s. There are really not that many left if you look at eBay. For some of the better condition ones, the asking price is already pretty steep. I have 2 that has no sound
> 
> ...


 
 Agree entirely.
  
 Apparently, one of the old German testing machines often used at present for these old tubes gives a 'good' reading at cathode emissions of 50% and even regards 19% as a 'usable' emission.  Mordy very helpfully provided a photo of one yesterday. I had never seen one before.
  
 I would imagine these old tubes were used for various purposes when they were first manufactured, not just in radios, but also for military and medical/scientific use.
 It struck me that being 'usable' and 'good' doesn't necessarily equate with producing a euphonic sound quality, or even working at all, in modern HiFi equipment. 
  
 I just wonder if these machines may be misleading sellers and buyers into trading with tubes they think are 'good' but for our purposes are no longer suitable, explaining our relatively high failure rates with at least some of these older coke bottle EL12ST tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

They are highly recommended for this Siemens Klangfilm cinema tube amp so there's no mistaking their suitably for audio purpose.
  
 http://www.classicaudio.ru/articles/klangfilm.pdf


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Agree entirely.
> 
> Apparently, one of the old German testing machines often used at present for these old tubes gives a 'good' reading at cathode emissions of 50% and even regards 19% as a 'usable' emission.  Mordy very helpfully provided a photo of one yesterday.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You could just be onto something there H13...it is indeed strange that we should be getting so many failures with these tubes. As @UntilThen says, these are very old tubes, but we've had plenty of other tubes from this era with nowhere near this failure rate - there must be something else going on here alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








....
  
 And so the recommendation to stick with NOS EL12'N's must stand for definite now...which is a great shame.
  
 I'm wondering whether your findings re. greater clarity and dynamics with the 'N's over your Valvos might just possibly be due in part to the Valvos having those Philips _*oval*_ plates, as opposed to the TFK _*round *_ones...and a resulting lean towards that difference I mentioned previously concerning the EL11s with different plates? Just a thought.
  
 Hopefully UT will soon have two _working(?!!)_ round-platers and be able to compare side-by-side lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 I'm now _*really*_ keen (apprehensive?!!) about seeing just what happens when I adapt my incoming _Spezials_!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And commiserations to you @DecentLevi...really bad luck! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(blue glows - although _sometimes_ benign - are usually _not_ a welcome sign lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> They are highly recommended for this Siemens Klangfilm cinema tube amp so there's no mistaking their suitably for audio purpose.
> 
> http://www.classicaudio.ru/articles/klangfilm.pdfCcertainly very sophisticated though the description does say


 
  
 Certainly very sophisticated, but would these meet our exacting auditory standards of two channel stereo HiFi equipment for headphones as we know it today?
  
 It also says in the text:
  
_'All amplifiers were designed for cinema u s e, which means that the ultra - s e n s i t i v e inputs should not be used for home audio'_
  
 Don't know if that would necessarily preclude home audio use or not though


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Certainly very sophisticated, but would these meet our exacting auditory standards of two channel stereo HiFi equipment for headphones as we know it today?
> 
> It also says in the text:
> 
> ...


 

 That's referring to the cinema amplifiers not the tubes. Even then if you read review33, some were using those amps for home.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> That's referring to the cinema amplifiers not the tubes. Even then if you read review33, some were using those amps for home.


 
  
 Possibly in a different circuit these tubes could function at lower emissions. I don't know enough about electronics to know the answer to that.
 Would be fascinating to listen to one though.  Would probably be pleasantly surprised.
  
 A friend has recently bought a 1930's wind up HMV record player- in beautiful mahogany, a real work of art.
 He played some old Bing Crosby and inspite of all the cracks and pops the sound was very vivid yet not at all fatiguing to the ears, even at very loud volume. It was like Bing was in the room.
  
 Thought provoking to realise that was exactly the way people heard the crooners in their day.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> (blue glows - although _sometimes_ benign - are usually _not_ a welcome sign lol!! :eek: ...).




It can be a good sign when not excessive.



 http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Tubes/blue_glow.html


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Not clear why you call it a 'base version' though.




Yeah, the DDED (etc.) is just another batch identifier.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Yeah, the DDED (etc.) is just another batch identifier.


 
 Thanks for clarifying that.
  
 I wonder if you could tell me if the codes 7DU and 1DW printed on the glass of my Valvos tell me anything about their origins?


----------



## Oskari

I cannot.


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1  
  
  'I'm now _*really*_ keen (apprehensive?!!) about seeing just what happens when I adapt my incoming _Spezials_!!!'
  
 Hi HI
 Is that the EL12spez's?
 Did I read someone had found they gave bad hum?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> They are highly recommended for this Siemens Klangfilm cinema tube amp so there's no mistaking their suitably for audio purpose.
> 
> http://www.classicaudio.ru/articles/klangfilm.pdf


 

 For whatever it's worth, the seller described my Siemens EL12 ST tubes as:
  
*Original vintage tubes.  Made in Germany in the 1940s/50s.  Made for Klangfilm equipment. SAME serie.  See pictures.*
*Tubes are old stock. Tested on West German Funke W19S military tube tester with EXCELLENT results and close MATCHED systems.*
*EXCELLENT audio tube. One of the VERY BEST power tubes ever made! Hard to find now!*


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> 'I'm now _*really*_ keen (apprehensive?!!) about seeing just what happens when I adapt my incoming _Spezials_!!!'
> 
> ...


 

 If they give you any hum at all, I hope it's good.
  
 Moderators: Please ignore this post.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> For whatever it's worth, the seller described my Siemens EL12 ST tubes as:
> 
> *Original vintage tubes.  Made in Germany in the 1940s/50s.  Made for Klangfilm equipment. SAME serie.  See pictures.*
> *Tubes are old stock. Tested on West German Funke W19S military tube tester with EXCELLENT results and close MATCHED systems.*
> *EXCELLENT audio tube. One of the VERY BEST power tubes ever made! Hard to find now!*


 
 That's an excellent description for your tubes and my Siemens works fine.  I think it's Valvo and Telefunken that have mainly given us problems.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> That's an excellent description for your tubes and my Siemens works fine.  I think it's Valvo and Telefunken that have mainly given us problems.




PCT's were made by Loewe-Opta, though.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> That's an excellent description for your tubes and my Siemens works fine.  I think it's Valvo and Telefunken that have mainly given us problems.


 

 Well it was pure dumb luck on my part. I haven't felt any desire to listen to any combo other than EL11/EL12 since my second set of adapters arrived last week, and no sign of any tube problems. Will see how the EL12Ns compare when they arrive.


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Well it was pure dumb luck on my part. I haven't felt any desire to listen to any combo other than EL11/EL12 since my second set of adapters arrived last week, and no sign of any tube problems. Will see how the EL12Ns compare when they arrive.


 
 Looking forward to that. Enjoy!


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> It can be a good sign when not excessive.
> 
> http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Tubes/blue_glow.html


 
  
 Yes indeed O....I believe it all depends on exactly _where_ the blue glow is!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  All I know is that the 2 powers I've had in the past that had me bewitched soon had me *cursing *lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...so I suppose I'm a bit biassed now!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  


howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> 'I'm now _*really*_ keen (apprehensive?!!) about seeing just what happens when I adapt my incoming _Spezials_!!!'
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah H13...one RFT (for £25) and a TFK (for £17)...both supposedly "100%" lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...so won't have lost a fortune if things turn bad! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And yes, it was @angpsi who had nothing but nasty buzzes from his spez's - hence my angst!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... But I shall be making sure that the leads I make for those top anode caps are _*well*_ shielded LOL!!...wish me luck!...(again lol!).


pctazhp said:


> If they give you any hum at all, I hope it's good.
> 
> Moderators: Please ignore this post.


 
  
 Oh yes, my very own f-h...I'm praying for @UntilThen's famous (or should that be _*in*_famous) "Humphrey" phenomenon!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Moderators not ignoring _any_ posts by now, I should imagine!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(enjoying a jolly good chuckle at the fun we're having, no doubt!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Well it was pure dumb luck on my part. I haven't felt any desire to listen to any combo other than EL11/EL12 since my second set of adapters arrived last week, and no sign of any tube problems.* Will see how the EL12Ns compare when they arrive.*


 
  
 Well, mon ami, this could just get you back in the mods' good books lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...not to mention _mine!!!_





...but please be quick, my EL12/12N pairing doesn't really give me a proper idea alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...although I have a sneaky suspicion the N isn't hitting _quite_ so hard in the bass as the ST12 - in my Euforia, at least.... 2x ST12s, driven by my mesh-plate EL11s, are delivering the most incredibly deep and authoritative bass imaginable through the T1s - *WAY* beyond anything I've ever heard before...some might just say, _*humungous lol!!*_





...CHEERS!...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Well, mon ami, this could just get you back in the mods' good books lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
_*humungous *_??? I fear you may have been watching too much US political news and it's affecting your lexicon. Unfortunately, new lexicons are still on back-order at Amazon.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I agree with you about the bass. For me it's not over exaggerated ala Beats. But it is strong and authoritative. Nicely integrated with the rest of the FR. Perhaps more important, it isn't some mushy "boom" but rather each note in the lower registers is well defined, clear and natural - just like all notes throughout the FR.
  
 I'll report on the EL12Ns after the Pony Express delivers them. I understand some British holdouts from the Revolutionary War have been disrupting their routes lately. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 BTW, how are your fish doing???


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:
			
		

> .
> But I shall be making sure that the leads I make for those top anode caps are _*well*_ shielded LOL!!...wish me luck!...




Hi @hypnos1, care to share how do you intend to do that? I was looking into experimenting with a diy faraday cage as per @HOWIE13's advice, but I'm hoping your solution would be more acceptable acceptable in term of aesthetics.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Is Loewe-Opta another name for Valvo?


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
 We had hums with FrankenEmber which could be removed with a Faraday Cage.
 I have one if you need it-though I'm sure you will be fine with your own made adapter.
 It's not a real Faraday Cage-actually an upturned metal Ikea utensil container.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Hi @hypnos1, care to share how do you intend to do that? I was looking into experimenting with a diy faraday cage as per @HOWIE13's advice, but I'm hoping your solution would be more acceptable acceptable in term of aesthetics.


 
 The adapter will certainly will be more aesthetically acceptable.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> _*humungous *_??? I fear you may have been watching too much US political news and it's affecting your lexicon. Unfortunately, new lexicons are still on back-order at Amazon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmmm, pct....better get my name down on Amazon then lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but my current setup is indeed pushing me ever closer to OTT territory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...must try harder to resist!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Now look here, ol' boy...you tryin' to do me out of a job? I thought you said you weren't really up to sound descriptions? - what more could one say above your own words re. that bass lol?..._*spot on!!!*_








....Methinks I shall pass the helm over to you now in _this_ "Love Boat" LOL - after all, @UntilThen did recently over-credit me with my beloved Pacific Princess...was merely a humble Assistant Purser, alas...(mind you, I was at least in charge of a good stash of cash, so it had its advantages! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 ps. Have issued strict instructions to my compatriots not to go anywhere near packages from either UK or Poland lol....or China...or Hong Kong...or..Germany...or...????!!! (but Butch and Sundance just don't want to know, I'm afraid!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 ps. Fish should strictly be huddled on the bottom of the pond sardine-style, but this warm(ish) Winter - once again! - has them begging me for food...there's just no rest for the wicked lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


angpsi said:


> Hi @hypnos1, care to share how do you intend to do that? I was looking into experimenting with a diy faraday cage as per @HOWIE13's advice, but I'm hoping your solution would be more acceptable acceptable in term of aesthetics.


 
  
 Hi angpsi...I take it you're still not having any luck at all, even with trying to remove from the vicinity any possible source of RFI/EMI?...(easier said than done, I know!).
  
 Whatever, please only use momentary tests - just purely buzzing etc. is _*not*_ good news for the amp!
  
 I myself will be experimenting with running the silver wire through narrow teflon tubing, covering this with aluminium foil and then running through wider teflon tubing...but only if there is indeed apparent interference, because the foil would have to be grounded so as not to attract even _more_ interference!..(antenna effect!).
  
 I would hope the anode cap wires used in your adapters do in fact already have some kind of shielding, but if so, I can't see how arrangement would be made for grounding it!
  
 So will keep y'all informed on progress, with hopefully a bit more info that might just be of help to you later...


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> That's an excellent description for your tubes and my Siemens works fine.  I think it's Valvo and Telefunken that have mainly given us problems.




If you read the Siemens Klangfilm article, it says that Telefunken is the best....Valvo too


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> If you read the Siemens Klangfilm article, it says that Telefunken is the best....Valvo too


 
 That's probably why the ones we are finding are often well used- they were so popular. Grrrrrrrr!


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> We had hums with FrankenEmber which could be removed with a Faraday Cage.
> I have one if you need it-though I'm sure you will be fine with your own made adapter.
> ...


 

 You mean something like this one?


----------



## UntilThen

Telefunken was a radio and television company formed as a joint venture of Siemens and AEG.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi angpsi...I take it you're still not having any luck at all, even with trying to remove from the vicinity any possible source of RFI/EMI?...(easier said than done, I know!).
> 
> Whatever, please only use momentary tests - just purely buzzing etc. is _*not*_ good news for the amp!


 
 Haven't actually tried anything, I've been away from my Elise the whole weekend. I'll probably sit down and try out my options on Tuesday, IKEA utensil included!


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> We had hums with FrankenEmber which could be removed with a Faraday Cage.
> I have one if you need it-though I'm sure you will be fine with your own made adapter.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H13...but if my own attempts fail, I shan't be bothering to continue lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


angpsi said:


> You mean something like this one?


 
  
 That looks quite smart actually, angpsi!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...certainly worth a try lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....GOOD LUCK!!


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> You mean something like this one?


 
 That's the one!
  
 There are two sizes, you would need the bigger one to clear the big tubes. It didn't always work, but when it did it was like magic. Hum gone in an instant.
  
 Occasionally it was necessary to ground the cage by attaching a wire through one of the holes and connecting to an earth point (or screw) of the chassis on some other equipment connected to the UK mains through an earthed mains plug.
  
 I've also used aluminium kitchen foil wrapped around the top of ordinary tubes, but not ones with an anode top connector.  
 I would wait for H1 though as it will spoil Elise's beauty.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> That looks quite smart actually, angpsi!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Well, _if_ it works, then we might have to end up with a smarter solution. Perhaps our Elise might end up looking something like this by the time we're finished?


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks H13...but if my own attempts fail, I shan't be bothering to continue lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 There are some pictures on the Ember site. It kind of smothers Ember, but the sound from FrankenEmber and the lovely to look at, and to listen to, 6A6 tubes were a delight.
 I'm helped by the fact I close my eyes most of the time.
  
 EDIT: OMG have we ever tried 6A6 tubes in Elise-can't recall now? Needs an adapter.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> That's the one!
> 
> There are two sizes, you would need the bigger one to clear the big tubes. It didn't always work, but when it did it was like magic. Hum gone in an instant.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo H13...but the entire wire would also need shielding, of course...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 It might just be worth @angpsi trying the cage trick, if only to see whether the cause might in fact perhaps be something else...


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> That's the one!


 
 Great! I was going to get one for the kitchen anyway!


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Well, _if_ it works, then we might have to end up with a smarter solution. Perhaps our Elise might end up looking something like this by the time we're finished?


 
 Spookily, I was looking at pictures of the Quad a few days ago, Maybe F-A will add a cage as a fashion accessory.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Yo H13...but the entire wire would also need shielding, of course...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes indeed and they are very cheap, about a fiver if I remember correctly and I thought if it didn't work I could give it to the wife as a gift.


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
_'Thanks H13...but if my own attempts fail, I shan't be bothering to continue lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




'_
  
  
 I can understand, as you will be very busy playing tube rolling with Euforia.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> Is Loewe-Opta another name for Valvo?




No. It's another name for Loewe.

See: http://radiomuseum-bocket.de/wp/en/history-of-loewe

The company still exists: loewe.tv


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Never knew what a formidable and advanced inventor Dr Loewe was. TV, digital TV, internet TV, cassette tape recorder etc etc. .
 This page brings you up do date with the company:
  
 http://www.hifigear.co.uk/blog/loewe-history/


----------



## pctazhp

Something almost transcendental in reading about history of Loewe-Opta. Thanks so much @Oskan and @mordy)))
  
 It's fun knowing I own a pair of tubes that was part of such a rich history. I almost never think about the human stories that must be behind most of the old tubes I own, and the amazing accomplishments many of those stories would reveal.


----------



## pctazhp

@hynos1. Thanks so much for your kind words, but I think your position as Tube Describer Extraordinaire is quite secure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And thanks for issuing the instructions to your operatives. It's nice knowing someone in high places. It's even nice knowing our Australian (bottom of the world) friend from a low place


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> There are some pictures on the Ember site. It kind of smothers Ember, but the sound from FrankenEmber and the lovely to look at, and to listen to, 6A6 tubes were a delight.
> I'm helped by the fact I close my eyes most of the time.
> 
> EDIT: OMG have we ever tried *6A6 tubes* in Elise-can't recall now? Needs an adapter.


 
 Your post just prompted me to pull out my pair of 6A6G  Visseaux Air Engraved base tubes that have been on vacation in my drawer for many months. Really quite nice. But they do require adapters. Just one more of many tubes that perform at world class levels with Elise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 Apologize for including the remains of my breakfast in the bottom right of the picture )))


----------



## UntilThen

I'm selling my 6A6 tubes at downunder price including the adapters. 9 tubes.

5 National Union
2 Fivre with original stickers
2 Visseaux

PM me for these near extinct marvels.


----------



## connieflyer

Did someone mention FrankenEmber?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm selling my 6A6 tubes at downunder price including the adapters. 9 tubes.
> 
> 5 National Union
> 2 Fivre with original stickers
> ...


 

 The moderation you demonstrate to all of us when it comes to collecting tubes is admirable.
  
 BTW. Please convey to your President that from now on he can just call me


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Your post just prompted me to pull out my pair of 6A6G  Visseaux Air Engraved base tubes that have been on vacation in my drawer for many months. Really quite nice. But they do require adapters. Just one more of many tubes that perform at world class levels with Elise
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Awesome!


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Did someone mention FrankenEmber?


 
 Happy memories seeing those pictures. A very good and versatile amp which taught us a lot about tubes and rolling.
 And those feet!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Did someone mention FrankenEmber?


 
  
 I'd post a picture of my Bravo, but I can't find it.
  
 This will have to suffice: https://smile.amazon.com/Bravo-Audio-Ocean-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00A2QKSVI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1486325614&sr=8-3&keywords=bravo+amp


----------



## pctazhp

BTW, not to appear totally self-absorbed, but Garage 1217 is based in Phoenix


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> I'd post a picture of my Bravo, but I can't find it.
> 
> This will have to suffice: https://smile.amazon.com/Bravo-Audio-Ocean-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00A2QKSVI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1486325614&sr=8-3&keywords=bravo+amp


 
 My first tube amp was a Bravo V3. Nice little amp and it has passive frequency filters which actually work quite well. I suspect like you I don't know which cupboard it's at the bottom of at present.


----------



## mordy

Getting impatient waiting for my cache of EL11 and EL12 tubes. Meanwhile I only have one EL12N and three EL11.
  
 Tried a Valvo EL11 from 1953 + a Siemens EL12N (code 273 = 73rd week 1952?  2nd shift July 1963?, July 1953?) in one channel and the Telefunken /Bendix in the other channel. It works. The EL11/12N combination on one channel sounds better with a more full bodied sound with the lower frequencies much better reproduced.
  
 Is this consistent what other people are hearing?
  
 PS: Oskari isn't sure if 273 is a date code.


----------



## Oskari

UT, please post a photo of the DV 336se. I can't find mine. Photos that is.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> PS: Oskari isn't sure if 273 is a date code.




It's a batch identifier until proven otherwise.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Getting impatient waiting for my cache of EL11 and EL12 tubes. Meanwhile I only have one EL12N and three EL11.
> 
> Tried a Valvo EL11 from 1953 + a Siemens EL12N (code 273 = 73rd week 1952?  2nd shift July 1963?, July 1953?) in one channel and the Telefunken /Bendix in the other channel. It works. The EL11/12N combination on one channel sounds better with a more full bodied sound with the lower frequencies much better reproduced.
> 
> ...


 
 Consistent with what I'm hearing.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Thanks for the thumbs up.
  
 Correction: The new EL11 tube I am trying now, together with the EL12N, is labeled Philips Miniwatt, but it was made by Loewe-Opta in Berlin January 1953. According to the Loewe brand history, Philips took over Loewe from 1962 to 1985, so it looks like cross branding was common. Although it was manufactured in Berlin, it says made in Holland.
  
 The Valvos are coming.....


----------



## mordy

Trying to find information on RFT from East Germany. Guess what? Google directed me to a post I wrote in the Little Dot days. We had a Siemens tube that said Foreign on it and it took a long time to figure out which country that was. Ultimately Oskari solved the mystery and pointed out that it was made in Japan.
  
 Anyhow, one thought was that it was made by RFT, and this is what i found then:
  
 Ok, found the answer to East RFT:
  
 "Funkwerk/Neuhaus RFT tubes were made in East Germany throughout the "Cold War" era. Various resellers have relabeled these tubes over the years. It is not uncommon to find these tubes labeled as Orion, Tungsram, TELEFUNKEN (without the diamond stamp on the bottom), Haltron, and Glotron to name but a few. "
  
 What follows is a poor translation (blame Google) of some of the history of RFT which was started in the 40's:
  
 "Tube production
 RFT EF80-produced electron tube

 An extensive chapter is the former RFT electron tube production in the GDR in the RFT tube stations, the actual nucleus of the RFT radio production. Radio tubes were traditionally in Berlin (WF) in Berlin-Weissensee (Loewe-Opta/Phonetica) and later manufactured in Mulhouse and Neuhaus and the Funkwerk Erfurt in Thuringia, but also at other locations. In Mulhouse, there were many skilled workers of the C. Lorenz AG, which operated a tube factory during the war in this region. Thus, the professional experience of former times were used for the recommencement of the tube production in Mulhouse. When the production of electronic and specialty tubes in Western Europe had to be shut down - only recently built the Telefunken tubes themselves - were almost all electronics companies still need tubes in the GDR produced works. The OSW (Oberspree work) Berlin (later WF works for television electronics in Ostend in Berlin-Oberschoeneweide), until the final closure in 2005 belonging to Samsung, introduced the EL ago 34 (dimple top), a post-war development of the Philips line. Later, the production was moved to Mühlhausen and sold by Philips expertise in the West. (China, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia competitors still make these and other tubes.)"
  
 Based on what it states above it seems that Berlin-Weisensee (Loewe-Opta) was a branch of RFT. Also interesting that they got workers from Lorenz which was a good brand.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> I guess the combo of variable manufacturers of 'Valvos' and the 'hit and miss' nature of EL12ST coke bottle shaped tubes is going to be risky. I see, for instance, your new Valvo has a different coding system from your 'DEAD/ DDED ones, so maybe a different manufacturer or factory? Not clear why you call it a 'base version' though.
> 
> All I can say from my recent personal experience is I've had two bad EL12ST's, one a Valvo and one a Telefunken.
> I have a good Siemens EL12ST and two good Valvos (codes 7DU and 1DW).
> ...


 
  
 What I call the 'base version' of the Valvo EL12's is anything besides the "DDED" version I had, which also had a very beautiful blue glow inside its' oval plate. However for me, the DDED type were the 'DEAD' ones, but now that I have a Valvo EL12 / 375 in perfect condition from Langrex Tubes, everything seems to be turning around.
  
 I've been pairing this single 'base version' ST-shaped Valvo EL12 with a few other tubes since yesterday and I've been mightily impressed. It seems to have a fairly similar tonality to the Mullard 6080 (and identical gain), yet with several further improvements such as dynamics and clarity. Also as powers paired with the brown base GEC 6AS7G, my ears kept telling me the channel with the Valvo was even better - even after balancing the volume and switching the headphones R/L! Though a very incomplete test having only one of these tubes, it seems these have some amazing class and finesse in the dynamics, FR, tonality and soundstage that just may 'trump' all else (and I'm not talking about you Donald, LOL). Better impressions to come after receiving it's mate.
  
 PS- my initial impressions yesterday of these being dark / soft were not done in an optimal environment, and after just a little burn-in these are already opening up more.


----------



## mordy

Can an EL34 tube be used as a power tube in the Elise? Does it need an adapter?
  
 Does an EL6 tube use the same adapter and pinout as an EL3N tube?


----------



## DecentLevi

from another thread:
  


oskari said:


> The 6CA7 (or EL34) is not a replacement for the 6SN7GT whatever way you look at it. One is a beam power tetrode (or a power pentode) while the other is a double triode.


 
  
 Also I have never seen any EL34 to 6SN7 adapters (just checked again), and I think there may be a good electrical reason for this.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> UT, please post a photo of the DV 336se. I can't find mine. Photos that is.


 
  
 What's up? This is my Da Vinci.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> What I call the 'base version' of the Valvo EL12's is anything besides the "DDED" version I had, which also had a very beautiful blue glow inside its' oval plate. However for me, the DDED type were the 'DEAD' ones, but now that I have a Valvo EL12 / 375 in perfect condition from Langrex Tubes, everything seems to be turning around.
> 
> I've been pairing this single 'base version' ST-shaped Valvo EL12 with a few other tubes since yesterday and I've been mightily impressed. It seems to have a fairly similar tonality to the Mullard 6080 (and identical gain), yet with several further improvements such as dynamics and clarity. Also as powers paired with the brown base GEC 6AS7G, my ears kept telling me the channel with the Valvo was even better - even after balancing the volume and switching the headphones R/L! Though a very incomplete test having only one of these tubes, it seems these have some amazing class and finesse in the dynamics, FR, tonality and soundstage that just may 'trump' all else (and I'm not talking about you Donald, LOL). Better impressions to come after receiving it's mate.
> 
> PS- my initial impressions yesterday of these being dark / soft were not done in an optimal environment, and after just a little burn-in these are already opening up more.


 
 Good to learn you are liking the EL12. Bet you can't wait for the other one to arrive.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Can an EL34 tube be used as a power tube in the Elise? Does it need an adapter?
> 
> Does an EL6 tube use the same adapter and pinout as an EL3N tube?


 
 Hi mordy.
  
 Given the EL34 is a good bit more powerful even than the EL12, I personally wouldn't want to even try it lol!!...these would seem to be much more for _power_ amp use, not headphone! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Re. your initial finding of a 12N, the bass is indeed something special (as described more fully over at the Euforia thread...these multiple threads can sometimes be a pain in the proverbial LOL!).
  
 And just wait 'til you have TWO of them pumping out their juice....I personally have never heard bass like it..._*ever!!*_




 Which is why, as @DecentLevi also discovered, it can in fact take a fair while for it to settle down and allow the rest of the FR to catch up and open out!
  
 And yes, the EL6 is basically the same as the 3(N), but twice the power output...as with the EL11 vs the EL12


----------



## mordy

Thanks.
What about the EL6?


----------



## pctazhp

Does anyone know if I can find any good tubes in the City of *EL* Mirage? http://www.cityofelmirage.org/
  
 Sorry. I wasn't detecting any active brain waves this morning, and am just trying to fire up some synapses.


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps the absence of brainwaves was self induced?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Perhaps the absence of brainwaves was self induced?


 

 Too many Big Mac's yesterday


----------



## connieflyer

You can never have too many Big Macs or chocolate


----------



## connieflyer

Since it is quiet perhaps I can get some advice. My birthday is in June and am going to treat myself to a long awaited ride on either a B-17 or B-25. http://yankeeairmuseum.org/fly/b-17-rides/  or this one 
  
http://yankeeairmuseum.org/fly/b-25-rides/ I am leaning to the B-25 but both would be a blast.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Since it is quiet perhaps I can get some advice. My birthday is in June and am going to treat myself to a long awaited ride on either a B-17 or B-25. http://yankeeairmuseum.org/fly/b-17-rides/  or this one
> 
> http://yankeeairmuseum.org/fly/b-25-rides/ I am leaning to the B-25 but both would be a blast.


 
 They both look great to me. Please give us a few days advanced notice about your birthday so we can plan a glorious celebration here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mine is Feb 8. I never thought I'd reach 39.
  
 BTW, do you remember this movie?


----------



## connieflyer

Watched it many times. B-47's B-52's and they even included my personal biplane that I fought the great war with


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Thanks.
> What about the EL6?


 
  
 Sorry m...assumed I'd answered that one lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...same as the EL3(N), so same pinout and therefore same adapter...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Does anyone know if I can find any good tubes in the City of *EL* Mirage? http://www.cityofelmirage.org/
> 
> Sorry. I wasn't detecting any active brain waves this morning, and am just trying to fire up some synapses.


 
  
 Hmmmm, pct....from the expectations on their employment application page (and your self-confessed recalcitrant brain wave activity!), I doubt they'd even let you _in_ to their fine(??!!) City LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(perhaps a couple more wires are needed direct from Elise to those synapses?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...CJ...(gave up after the first couple of paragraphs re. eligibilty to even proceed with the job application!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hmmmm, pct....from the expectations on their employment application page (and your self-confessed recalcitrant brain wave activity!), I doubt they'd even let you _in_ to their fine(??!!) City LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 H1: I suspect you spent more time on that page than anyone else has for a long time. Here in Arizona "Jobs" is a 4 letter word


----------



## DecentLevi

So about my first pair of ST-shaped EL12's (Valvo EL12 375 DDED with blue internal glow). It's the darndest thing, Howie noticed 40 & 50% on their box on photo I posted of them, which is something I overlooked altogether. Yup indeed that was written on the outside of the boxes, and that sure was how they performed, if even that much! The eBay listing had some test results "good" and other readings I couldn't understand, but certainly failed to mention what the heck those low numbers were written on the outside of the boxes!
  
 After the first tube was 'failure to launch' I contacted him asking for a patrial refund to which he just told me report it damaged with my post office _(would seem a lost cause to me)_, to try various remedies or buy another from him. After the 2nd from his pair died after just 1-2 minutes I threw them both away since they were non-functional. I was considering asking for a refund, but then that would likely require shipping them back - though they are already discarded and I don't want to deal with int'l shipping. I thought of just asking for a full / partial refund from this German seller without a return, but thought that may cause him to give me negative feedback on eBay. So would you guys say there's still anything I can do on this one?
  
 Anyway in my case at least, I'm pretty sure the only reason these bottle shaped EL12's didn't work was because of being already too worn out - or possibly damaged in transit. As 3 of us have discovered, many of these do actually work, and sound marvelous (including myself with the one working tube so far from a more reliable seller).


----------



## connieflyer

Ask for your refund they send you a pair of tubes and neither one works if you don't want to deal with him again and you don't want to send them back figure the cost of shipping and tell him that he can give you a partial refund and their mouth it would be less shipping the tubes they won't cooperate go to eBay doesn't matter about your reading they did something wrong not you doesn't work that way. Just stand up and tell him if you don't want to deal with him again and you don't want to send them back figure the cost of shipping and tell him that he can give you a partial refund and they am out it would be less shipping the tubes they won't cooperate go to Ebay doesn't matter about your rating they did something wrong not you it doesn't work that way. Just stand up and tell him there Brooke there garbage tubes you misled if you write down there that they they sold you something other than what you got they're going to give you the stuff just to get you off the road they can't afford to have a reputation with bait and switch the owners is on them not you stand up for yourself and take command


----------



## UntilThen

DL both my sellers refunded me in full when I told them the tubes weren't singing. Tell your seller that too or he has to pay the return shipping.

However you have thrown away your tubes so that's tricky.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 Consumer laws are quite strict in Germany.
  
 What I do is inform the seller the tube doesn't work and is therefore _'not fit for purpose'_. That's the important wording.
  
 If the seller wants the broken tube back he will have to re-imburse your return postage as well as your original costs of the item and postage to you. 
  
 If the seller doesn't co-operate you can open a case with eBAY.  I personally wouldn't be concerned about negative feedback- you have done nothing wrong.
  
 Sensible sellers will co-operate in the knowledge you wouldn't necessarily give them negative feedback if they refunded quickly.
  
 Like UT, I was refunded immediately for my two bad tubes. One seller didn't want it returned and the other asked me to let him know the cost of the return which he felt was not worth the expense.
  
 Even if you no longer have the tubes you could discuss with eBay. Could you retrieve them from the trash bin?
  
 For the seller to ask you to claim from the the post-office is ridiculous when there was no evidence of physical damage to the tube -and in any event it was the seller who had the contract with the postal service not you, so he should be claiming.  
  
 Your contract was with the seller so *he* is responsible to you-not the post office, even if the tubes had been damaged in transit,


----------



## DecentLevi

thanks guys, I've already messaged him about this


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> thanks guys, I've already messaged him about this


 
 Good-if you have to open a case with eBay you can explain to them you were misled into throwing the tubes away by the inappropriate information the seller gave you.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks guys. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying something that is otherworldly with the Elise as a preamp: surreal realism, details and 3D soundstage unlike anything I've ever heard before, with Tung Sol 5998 + Reflektor 6N23P ('holy grail' edition).


----------



## mordy

Today i received a bunch of tubes after having rummaged through the eBay bargain bins. All the tubes are used and many show signs of age, just like me. I mean, I don't look the same now as 50 years ago, and many of these tubes have the markings worn off. It will take some time to identify them etc.
  
 One of the tubes says EL11 but it looks very different the others. In size it is between a regular EL ST EL11 and the EL12N. I am afraid to plug it in until I know what is. The handwritten label says EL11 5(?) with the five crossed out, but it seems to have the marking EL11.
  

  
 Size shown in comparison with EL11 ST
  

  
 There are no other markings on this tube. Does anybody know what it is?
  
 Included in this stash were three EL12 - so far at least one seems to work....


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Today i received a bunch of tubes after having rummaged through the eBay bargain bins. All the tubes are used and many show signs of age, just like me. I mean, I don't look the same now as 50 years ago, and many of these tubes have the markings worn off. It will take some time to identify them etc.
> 
> One of the tubes says EL11 but it looks very different the others. In size it is between a regular EL ST EL11 and the EL12N. I am afraid to plug it in until I know what is. The handwritten label says EL11 5(?) with the five crossed out, but it seems to have the marking EL11.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Maybe it's like the tube on the left in this picture from eBay:
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-tubes-EL11-Loewe-and-others-71-24-tested-tubes-/112271151257?hash=item1a23e1d099:g:1cMAAOSw241YfNom


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 Thanks for the reply - it looks just like the left tube in the picture. So it is a Loews-Opta shortie ST EL11 from the 40's.
  
 The good news is that the two EL12 tubes that I was worried about now seem to work fine, at least for the moment One had a loose base, Based on the advice of h1 I performed some non-invasive surgery, I set the bones, I mean the glass envelope in what I thought "clicked". Then I applied a little electrical tape around the glass and the base. Voila! No more ticks, scratches and pops.
  
 The room is filled with magnificent voluptuous bass and I am grinning side to side from all my cheap thrills.
  
 Alas, these old tubes are finicky, and trying some other combinations I have to fiddle around until it gets quiet again from the EL12 bleachers....


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> Thanks for the reply - it looks just like the left tube in the picture. So it is a Loews-Opta shortie ST EL11 from the 40's.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad they are sounding good for you Mordy. Yes the coke bottle shaped EL12ST's can be a bit temperamental.
  
 I also had a couple of loose bases and applied H1's remedy to good effect.
  
 The newer RFT EL12N straight bottles are much more consistent and reliable. 
 They are slightly different in sound, but not by much.
  
 You got a good lot of tubes to play with there and I'm looking forward to your further assessments in due course.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Loud buzzing on the EL12spez are not a good sign. Try shifting Elise a little with her position and see if that will eliminate the buzz. I use Deoxit on my tube pins to clean it before use. You can try cleaning your pins and the top metal. I remember @aqsw using 6F8G and getting hum too. He gave up on them in the end.


 
  


howie13 said:


> We had hums with FrankenEmber which could be removed with a Faraday Cage.
> I have one if you need it-though I'm sure you will be fine with your own made adapter.
> It's not a real Faraday Cage-actually an upturned metal Ikea utensil container.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So I managed to get on with further testing the EL12 spez and it looks like there is indeed an issue with picking up interference. After lots of toying around with moving the amp and/or using @HOWIE13's scientifically proven design of a Faraday cage there is a very big reduction of the humming, albeit still present. Without the cage the most pronounced factor to control whether the interference appears or disappears seems to be the way the HD600's own cable is placed.
  
 The second problem is that now that I can actually listen to the tubes they seem to give me a _very_ low output—namely, I have to turn the volume knob at 3 o'clock in order to maintain audible levels on the Senns. Pity, the tubes sound _very_ promising, even compared to the Siemens EL12n...
  
 What do you guys reckon?
  
 ----------------------
 #EDIT: forgive me if I sound like a noob, but I turned off the power on the amp without shutting down the music and to my total amazement two things happened:

the amp kept on playing
the buzz is gone and the volume is up!
 _Now_, what do you guys reckon?
  
 P.S. the TF EL12spez sound wonderful!
 -----------------------
  
 Here's the Elise moved to a different position...
  

  
 ... and here's the Elise with her elegant Faraday cages!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> So I managed to get on with further testing the EL12 spez and it looks like there is indeed an issue with picking up interference. After lots of toying around with moving the amp and/or using @HOWIE13's scientifically proven design of a Faraday cage there is a very big reduction of the humming, albeit still present. Without the cage the most pronounced factor to control whether the interference appears or disappears seems to be the way the HD600's own cable is placed.
> 
> The second problem is that now that I can actually listen to the tubes they seem to give me a _very_ low output—namely, I have to turn the volume knob at 3 o'clock in order to maintain audible levels on the Senns. Pity, the tubes sound _very_ promising, even compared to the Siemens EL12n...
> 
> What do you guys reckon?




  
 3 o'clock to get audible levels on HD600. That doesn't sound right. Let H1 have a go with his EL12spez.
  
 Just be aware that HD600 and HD650 pick up interference much easier than T1 600 ohms. That's something I notice with my HD650 and T1.
  
 Get a pair of Siemens or Telefunken EL12.
  
 How do you find the EL11 and EL12N with HD600?
  
 Those 2 cages are hilarious. Twin Ned Kelly?


----------



## thatonenoob

untilthen said:


> Those 2 cages are hilarious. Twin Ned Kelly?


 
 Looks like an ikea project gone wrong!?


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> 3 o'clock to get audible levels on HD600. That doesn't sound right. Let H1 have a go with his EL12spez.
> 
> Just be aware that HD600 and HD650 pick up interference much easier than T1 600 ohms. That's something I notice with my HD650 and T1.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well full marks for trying -nothing ventured nothing gained!
  
 I wonder if Elise doesn't like your spez as a power tube and has invoked a safety switch which has cut off the power circuit and what you are hearing is a direct sound running through Elise, unamplified from your DAC, rather like a 'line out' situation-only speculating of course.
  
 Have you tried the spez as a driver-that's what I would do next and see what happens?
 Are those EL11's in the picture? -you could use them as powers, but not any 2.5A conventional power tube like 6AS7, 6080 etc as you would exceed 6.8A total current.


----------



## HOWIE13

howie13 said:


> Well full marks for trying -nothing ventured nothing gained!
> 
> I wonder if Elise doesn't like your spez as a power tube and has invoked a safety switch which has cut off the power circuit and what you are hearing is a direct sound running through Elise, unamplified from your DAC, rather like a 'line out' situation-only speculating of course.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry mistake.


----------



## Spork67

Any well made amp with beefy power supply will keep playing / amplifying music for a little while if it is turned off while the source is still playing.
  
 I have NFI how this would have "fixed" your tubes, unless somehow it helped the amp to self adjust bias or something.


----------



## UntilThen

thatonenoob said:


> Looks like an ikea project gone wrong!?


 
  
 Haha that's laugh worthy.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Any well made amp with beefy power supply will keep playing / amplifying music for a little while if it is turned off while the source is still playing.
> 
> I have NFI how this would have "fixed" your tubes, unless somehow it helped the amp to self adjust bias or something.


 
  
 I can't stop laughing thinking of the 2 cages and your NFI acronym.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> Well full marks for trying -nothing ventured nothing gained!
> 
> I wonder if Elise doesn't like your spez as a power tube and has invoked a safety switch which has cut off the power circuit and what you are hearing is a direct sound running through Elise, unamplified from your DAC, rather like a 'line out' situation-only speculating of course.
> 
> ...


 
 Wrote Lukasz a full report about the whole thing. I only hope I won't get scolded for my [mis]adventures!
  
 I did try to change seats between the EL11 and the EL12spez, and the buzzing issue is greatly reduced. What worries me is that the low volume issue still persists. Here's a pic for everyone's visual pleasure:
  

  


untilthen said:


> 3 o'clock to get audible levels on HD600. That doesn't sound right. Let H1 have a go with his EL12spez.
> 
> Just be aware that HD600 and HD650 pick up interference much easier than T1 600 ohms. That's something I notice with my HD650 and T1.
> 
> ...


 
  
 All you guys should agree this IKEA hack is the sort of knowledge that would be indispensable to future generations! I just thought I'd entertain you with some visuals!
  
 On the subject of 3 o'clock, I should note that I found that the volume would not get noticeably louder from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Interestingly, when I switch the EL12spez to the drivers seat the buzzing sound is almost gone at 9 o'clock but the volume still stays low. I wonder whether this is compatible with @HOWIE13 's idea about a safety circuit of some sort; for one thing, the volume stays mostly fixed at low levels; but it does offer _some_ range, albeit very small.
  
 Finally, from the little I could discern given the low levels of music reproduction, I found the EL11 / EL12spez better than the EL12n; namely instrument separation quiet, beautifully developed frequency range etc. So far the EL12ns sound a bit harsh to my ears, albeit it looks like I should give them generous amounts of time to open up. Still, as far as first impressions go, the Telefunken EL12spez sounded indeed clearer than the Siemens EL12n. I can report further on this subject during the day, because I'll obviously won't be keeping the spez on the Elise unless the Feliks family give me the green light...


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @angpsi...*NO WAY *is that good, going anywhere near 3 o'clock vol LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... Something is very wrong somewhere, so you must stop any further testing alas!...I have max listening level mostly at 8 or 9 o'clock!
  
 Am still awaiting my own 'Spezials', and hope to see what's what soon...sorry for your disappointment...(a tube roller's lot, I'm afraid! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). But NOS 12Ns should be a much safer bet, and for a very reasonable cost...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> Thanks for the reply - it looks just like the left tube in the picture. So it is a Loews-Opta shortie ST EL11 from the 40's.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well done on that tube lot...they can indeed be real bargain bags - with a bit of luck!! And it does look as if you struck lucky there...hope those EL12s have a good bit of life still in them.
 And yeah, it's well worth fixing any base that seems loose, plus always removing by the base only and not pulling up on the glass lol!
  
 That bass sure is voluptuous, no?...no wonder you're grinning like a Cheshire cat, getting such a sound for bargain price!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and as already advised, there are indeed EL11s with that shaped envelope - haven't a clue how they compare to the ST-shape alas....continued GOOD HUNTING!!!


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi @angpsi...*NO WAY *is that good, going anywhere near 3 o'clock vol LOL!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am now genuinely worried. I switched back to configurations that worked prior to my experimentation with the EL12spez (e.g. the EL11 / EL12n) and the volume knob stays rather unresponsive. As before, once I turn off the power with he source on the amp continues to play and the volume is a bit louder. The volume knob stays unresponsive.
  
 Did I damage the Elise?
  



























































 
  
 #EDIT: the Elise keeps playing on reserve for eight minutes and counting... Maybe there's a whole lot of current stored on the transformer which keeps @HOWIE13 's 'safety circuit' on? Can anyone confirm that there is indeed such a thing?
  
 P.S. On the brighter (?) side, I can second @UntilThen assessment of the EL11/EL12n's sound on the HD600, i.e. "clear, transparent, dazzling in the highs, commanding in the mids and impactful in the bass (...) [with] a right touch of liquid warm and lushness."


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> I am now genuinely worried. I switched back to configurations that worked prior to my experimentation with the EL12spez (e.g. the EL11 / EL12n) and the volume knob stays rather unresponsive. As before, once I turn off the power with he source on the amp continues to play and the volume is a bit louder. The volume knob stays unresponsive.
> 
> Did I damage the Elise?


 
  
 This isn't sounding good, angpsi...how long did you leave the power off, plus no signal? Sometimes safety circuits need quite a long period before resetting properly. And do you have stock tubes to test with first after a long rest?...keeping my fingers crossed for you...CJ


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> This isn't sounding good, angpsi...how long did you leave the power off, plus no signal? Sometimes safety circuits need quite a long period before resetting properly. And do you have stock tubes to test with first after a long rest?...keeping my fingers crossed for you...CJ


 

 Playing with the signal on ten minutes and counting... Why do you say I should cut off the signal? Do you think the signal still charges the circuitry? (Cutting it off, regardless, as we speak—I'm just curious to know the rationale)
  
 I do have the stock tubes, obviously. Will give them a try after everything settles. How long do you think it should take?


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Playing with the signal on ten minutes and counting... Why do you say I should cut off the signal? Do you think the signal still charges the circuitry? (Cutting it off, regardless, as we speak—I'm just curious to know the rationale)
> 
> I do have the stock tubes, obviously. Will give them a try after everything settles. How long do you think it should take?


 
  
 I've come to view our tube amp circuits as laws unto themselves lol!!...so I'm a firm believer in letting _everything_ go "cold" when hoping for resurrection! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And in the past (with other amps), it was HOURS before I could count my blessings...so try to hold on for the rest of the day before resuming...and then GOOD LUCK!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...keep us posted...


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again @angpsi...the more I think about it, the more I'm unhappy about the actual adapters - the spec for the Spezials is no different to the standard 12s, or the 12Ns, so I personally cannot see why yours should have behaved so badly, given no apparent compatibility problems from the 12s...but time will tell (fingers crossed for me too!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> Any well made amp with beefy power supply will keep playing / amplifying music for a little while if it is turned off while the source is still playing.
> 
> I have NFI how this would have "fixed" your tubes, unless somehow it helped the amp to self adjust bias or something.


 
 When I switch off Elise with music playing sound quickly diminishes to zero over a period of about 6 seconds.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Playing with the signal on ten minutes and counting... Why do you say I should cut off the signal? Do you think the signal still charges the circuitry? (Cutting it off, regardless, as we speak—I'm just curious to know the rationale)
> 
> I do have the stock tubes, obviously. Will give them a try after everything settles. How long do you think it should take?


 
 I agree with H1.
  
 Best to unplug from the mains and switch off the source and wait until later in the day.
  
 I'm really sorry it didn't work out and it's so frustrating, especially as the music sounded so good. I've had instances of these sorts of problems with previous amps and all has eventually resolved.
  
 Also, I even think someone on this thread had some similar problem or odd noise in one channel (can't remember the details) which just corrected itself after a period of rest.
  
 Given your excellent report on how this tube sounds,  I do hope H1's future trials will succeed.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> I am now genuinely worried. I switched back to configurations that worked prior to my experimentation with the EL12spez (e.g. the EL11 / EL12n) and the volume knob stays rather unresponsive. As before, once I turn off the power with he source on the amp continues to play and the volume is a bit louder. The volume knob stays unresponsive.
> 
> Did I damage the Elise?
> 
> ...


 
 Current can't be stored. Voltage is stored and it would be stored in the capacitors and not the transformer. As has been mentioned, amps with "beefy" power supplies, which I assume means large capacitors, will run for a time after the ac is turned off. I've never tried running Elise after I turn it off. I'm surprised you can run it for 8 minutes. Maybe I'll give it a try.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Current can't be stored. Voltage is stored and it would be stored in the capacitors and not the transformer. As has been mentioned, amps with "beefy" power supplies, which I assume means large capacitors, will run for a time after the ac is turned off. I've never tried running Elise after I turn it off. I'm surprised you can run it for 8 minutes. Maybe I'll give it a try.


 

 Hope I haven't started a worrisome trend here!


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Hope I haven't started a worrisome trend here!


 
  
 No, mon ami...s**t can sometimes happen when we stray away from stock setups (regardless of the amp in question), but fortunately very few end up with any lasting problems lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








.
  
 However, this is one reason why I always ask folks to let *me* take the risks first with untried tubes - especially those that are way off the radar LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...and wait a fair while until I've tested them _thoroughly_...but I fully understand those who like to dive in with the experimenting...(I'm not the only one with an over-eager thirst for such risky ventures!!...short of diving off a mountainside with nowt but a piece of fabric strapped to me!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 But I do honestly hope all will be well with your amp...fingers and toes crossed!  My own Spezials have in fact just arrived, so by later tomorrow I should hopefully have some idea of just what might have been your problem...or _not!!!_...so let battle commence...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Hope I haven't started a worrisome trend here!


 

 The only thing I worry about around here is @connieflyer.


----------



## pctazhp

My hero (for obvious reasons) is dead at 102.
  
 https://www.yahoo.com/celebrity/comedian-irwin-corey-world-foremost-014610705.html
  
 RIP. You were the best )))


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> P.S. On the brighter (?) side, I can second @UntilThen assessment of the EL11/EL12n's sound on the HD600, i.e. "clear, transparent, dazzling in the highs, commanding in the mids and impactful in the bass (...) [with] a right touch of liquid warm and lushness."


 
  
 Strangely I too agree with my own assessment on the T1.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> No, mon ami...s**t can sometimes happen when we stray away from stock setups (regardless of the amp in question), but fortunately very few end up with any lasting problems lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks @hypnos1 for offering to throw yourself first in the line of fire, but sometimes the rest of us get an itchy finger (especially noobs like myself)! Thought the spez were a decent price at the time so given the fact that in theory it is identical to the regular EL12 I went ahead and offered my noob self to the benefit of science...
  
 About your cross–examination then, should the inquiry point towards the adapter I believe all of those were created after the revision of the regular EL11/12 to 6sn7 one. Therefore your findings should also reveal whether it's a general design flaw or a mishap with my own adapter.
  


pctazhp said:


> The only thing I worry about around here is @connieflyer.


 
 Leave the poor man alone @pctazhp , I believe he's spending the day building the audiophile equivalent of methadone to his Feliks–deprived  month!


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Thanks @hypnos1 for offering to throw yourself first in the line of fire, but sometimes the rest of us get an itchy finger (especially noobs like myself)! Thought the spez were a decent price at the time so given the fact that in theory it is identical to the regular EL12 I went ahead and offered my noob self to the benefit of science...
> 
> About your cross–examination then, should the inquiry point towards the adapter I believe all of those were created after the revision of the regular EL11/12 to 6sn7 one. Therefore your findings should also reveal whether it's a general design flaw or a mishap with my own adapter.
> 
> Leave the poor man alone @pctazhp , I believe he's spending the day building the audiophile equivalent of methadone to his Feliks–deprived  month!


 
  
 Hi again angpsi...understand your sentiments entirely, my friend! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 I have been wondering whether in fact the strapping of grid #2 to the anode may not have been ensured inside the adapter...this would result in double the output to the amp, which I'm sure it would not like too much lol!!
  
 Edit...revised instructions below!!


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Did you notice any (horrors!) burnt smell? If not, after a couple of hours rest I am sure that the amp will come back to it's old self!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Strangely I too agree with my own assessment on the T1.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again @angpsi...silly me...ignore my last post on checking for g2 and anode strapping...got it wrong!...so will delete it...got to think again lol!
  
 OK...using a low power source, you will need to apply it to the inside of the anode cap of the adapter and check that it is also present at pin g2 of the adapter...which is to the far _*right*_ of the row of 5 pin receptors (to the bottom) as you look down at the *top *of the adapter. Hope this is clear enough, and that you can manage to therefore check that they are indeed connected...
  
 ps. this pin is actually for the _anode_ in the standard tube...


----------



## hypnos1

@angpsi....Hope you got my revised instructions as per above post lol!  CHEERS!


----------



## hypnos1

OK @angpsi and for anyone else interested...I've just temporarily wired up an RFT EL12 'Spezial' and _*IT WORKS PERFECTLY!!! ...Phew!!*_
  
 And so either both your tubes are horribly bad or, more likely IMHO, they haven't wired the adapters properly!! I suggest you message the mfr straight  away and ask them to check* VERY* carefully their layout, and make sure especially that grid #2 (which is on a different pin to the standard EL12) is in fact connected to the anode and routed to pin #2(anode) at the 6SN7/6AS7G end...
  
 ps. Hope your amp has now come back to life...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> OK @angpsi and for anyone else interested...I've just temporarily wired up an RFT EL12 'Spezial' and _*IT WORKS PERFECTLY!!! ...Phew!!*_
> 
> And so either both your tubes are horribly bad or, more likely IMHO, they haven't wired the adapters properly!! I suggest you message the mfr straight  away and ask them to check* VERY* carefully their layout, and make sure especially that grid #2 (which is on a different pin to the standard EL12) is in fact connected to the anode and routed to pin #2(anode) at the 6SN7/6AS7G end...
> 
> ...


 
 Excellent H1 and I read your early encouraging assessment on the Euforia thread.
 I hope angpsi 's Elise is OK and the problem elucidated.
 I've ordered.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> OK @angpsi
> and for anyone else interested...I've just temporarily wired up an RFT EL12 'Spezial' and _*IT WORKS PERFECTLY!!! ...Phew!!*_
> 
> And so either both your tubes are horribly bad or, more likely IMHO, they haven't wired the adapters properly!! I suggest *you message the mfr* straight  away and ask them to check *VERY* carefully their layout, and make sure especially that grid #2 (which is on a different pin to the standard EL12) is in fact connected to the anode and routed to pin #2(anode) at the 6SN7/6AS7G end...
> ...



Good news @hypnos1! Do you also have MsX adapters or did you use something different? 
#EDIT: just saw you just did you own wiring.

As per your directions, being an architect I promise you I can do schematics but so far I didn't get a single piece of advice out of the descriptions you so meticulously gave me!  Is there any chance to pm me with the simplest diagram? Or, to pm me with the exact wording I should use when I contact MsX?
#EDIT 2: I'm slowly catching up with your directions. Give me a couple of more reads and I think I'll get it right!

Picked up your concerned remarks over my cellphone, so I can't yet report on the state of the Elise. I'll get back with more news tomorrow morning. But I'm thankful to have everyone worrying about the state of my amp! As far as I'm concerned, this is the true camaraderie of this wonderful lot right here!

Btw, what's "mfr"?


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Good news @hypnos1! Do you also have MsX adapters or did you use something different? As per your directions, being an architect I promise you I can do schematics but so far I didn't get a single piece of advice out of the directions you so meticulously gave me!  Is there any chance to pm me with the simplest diagram? Or, to pm me with the exact wording I should use when I contact MsX?
> 
> Picked up your concerned remarks over my cellphone, so I can't yet report on the state of the Elise. I'll get back with more news tomorrow morning. But I'm thankful to have everyone worrying about the state of my amp! As far as I'm concerned, this is the true camaraderie of this wonderful lot right here!
> 
> Btw, what's "mfr"?


 
  
 Hi again ang.
  
 Actually, I always make my own adapters...have done since my LittleDot tube amp days, and so have had plenty of practice (not to mention time to make mistakes lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I do like to use pure silver wire wherever I can, you see...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Anyway, I take it you've never played around with testing electrical circuits, connections etc....in which case I'd say skip my instructions and don't bother right now (but perhaps google tutorials on checking for electrical continuity when you get more time lol), and simply message MrsX explaining fully what happened to your amp, and ask her to "check *very* carefully" etc. etc. exactly as I worded in my post...Edit : not forgetting to tell her my totally successful experience with a Spezial...
  
 As I mentioned, I find it hard to believe that _both_ tubes could have been such as to cause this kind of fairly major problem...so I wish you the best of luck - both with MrsX (by 'mfr' I meant _manufacturer _





...sorry...), and for tomorrow's day of reckoning - _fruitful_, I hope...CHEERS!


----------



## UntilThen

Hi H1, I'm on my way to work. If you could draw a diagram of the pins and their connections with 6sn7 and the anode cap for angpsi to show to Mrs. X.

Cheers.


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Anyway, I take it you've never played around with testing electrical circuits, connections etc....in which case I'd say skip my instructions (...) and simply message MrsX explaining fully what happened to your amp, and ask her to "check *very* carefully" etc. etc. exactly as I worded in my post...Edit : not forgetting to tell her my totally successful experience with a Spezial...







untilthen said:


> Hi H1, I'm on my way to work. If you could draw a diagram of the pins and their connections with 6sn7 and the anode cap for angpsi to show to Mrs. X.
> 
> Cheers.




@hypnos's directions actually do make sense once I read them carefully. What about the low current source - should I use a tester such as this one? (which I do have available at the office) Any special concerns about the voltage I should use to test? Otherwise I also have the plain screwdriver tester available if there's a simpler way to provide the current.


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> @hypnos's directions actually do make sense once I read them carefully. What about the low current source - should I use a tester such as this one? (which I do have available at the office) Any special concerns about the voltage I should use to test? Otherwise I also have the plain screwdriver tester available if there's a simpler way to provide the current.


 
  
 Hi again angpsi...on second thoughts, as it's only the adapter you're testing, it doesn't matter of course if you use mains voltage to test...just need to be more careful lol!!!...multi-meter is good!...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Hi H1, I'm on my way to work. If you could draw a diagram of the pins and their connections with 6sn7 and the anode cap for angpsi to show to Mrs. X.
> 
> Cheers.


 
  
 Hi UT.
  
 As they've already got the basics right for the standard EL12, my wording that @angpsi sends will make sure they at least check closely that g2/anode connection as a prime suspect, and of course they already know the rest of the pinout to double check. She will certainly message back if there's anything else she's not sure of...as we know lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...hope your day at work isn't _too_ strenuous - got to save plenty of energy for 'new' (tube!) Elise time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 I feel like I am on an archaeological expedition - trying to identify tubes without markings, or very few and cryptic ones. Using the iPhone magnifier I was able to find microscopic hieroglyphic inscriptions on the bases between the pins and the rim. These were not visible to my old eyes as anything but tiny scribbles, but the camera does not lie....
  
 This is how one tube looks to my eye:
  

 Can you see the inscriptions? Barely - let's see what this one says:
  

  
 I think that it says 8F and 61.5 inside a stylized M and D symbol. I don't know what it stands for, but this is the short Loewe-Opta EL11 pictured in a recent post.
  
 Here are two anonymous EL11 tubes:
  

  

  
 They look to be of similar construction with the same type of top construction and round plates. Looking at the bottoms I can only see vague symbols/scribbles. Let's see what the camera thinks:
  

 Hast Du mir gesehen - this is a RFT tube!  It also says VEB and 906 (another tube says 908). Above it it says ELRADO (not shown).
  
 The next tube is missing the furungstift (guide pin) - not much of a problem since the base has the pins in groups of three and four and you cannot go wrong.

  
 I think it says 54 and 60, as well 1167, and the symbol is the same stylized M and D as in the Loewe-Opta tube above. To the best of my knowledge RFT and L-O were branches of the same company, and the tubes look the same so maybe made in different factories (or at different times). This tube also has 50-51 EL11 engraved on the base.
  
 If anybody can shed more light on dates, factories etc, I would appreciate it.


----------



## Oskari

Mordy, see the following.



 http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/pressmarken_praegezeichen.html
 https://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/hellschreiber-tubes.htm#pressmarke


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Thanks for the info. A cursory glance tells me that those numbers inside the stylized M and P do not tell you who the tube manufacturer is. Instead they tell you where the plastic base was made and of what kind of materials.
  
 So how can I identify my two anonymous EL11 tubes? Are there more manufacturers than Telefunken, RFT, Loewe-Opta, Valvo, Philips, Tungsram, Tesla?


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> Thanks for the info. A cursory glance tells me that those numbers inside the stylized M and P do not tell you who the tube manufacturer is. Instead they tell you where the plastic base was made and of what kind of materials.
> 
> So how can I identify my two anonymous EL11 tubes? Are there more manufacturers than Telefunken, RFT, Loewe-Opta, Valvo, Philips, Tungsram, Tesla?


 
 Hi mordy
  
 It's getting more and more complex the more we look.
  
 I'm glad Osarki is here to help out as I'm very confused,- but happy!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT.
> 
> As they've already got the basics right for the standard EL12, my wording that @angpsi sends will make sure they at least check closely that g2/anode connection as a prime suspect, and of course they already know the rest of the pinout to double check. She will certainly message back if there's anything else she's not sure of...as we know lol!!
> 
> ...


 

 Gotcha. Your hunch is probably right. g2/anode connection.


----------



## angpsi

So here's an update on the status of the Elise:
  
 Yesterday I turned the Elise off and pulled out the mains cable for the rest of the day. Unfortunately today I returned to find that the problem still persists.
  
 The Elise seems to have gotten permanently into some kind of pass–through mode: I can listen to music with the amp turned off (i.e. tubes not lighting up), but once turned on, all the nasty effects return (i.e. unresponsive volume, some buzz, etc.).
  
 I haven't yet been able to test the adapter yet because I've lended the multi–meter to my father. I'll probably do that tomorrow. I've written to Lukasz with all of the details including today's update. At this point I’m guessing that the news are decidedly bad. All I can do is await further instructions from the side of the Feliks family…


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT.
> 
> As they've already got the basics right for the standard EL12, my wording that @angpsi sends will make sure they at least check closely that g2/anode connection as a prime suspect, and of course they already know the rest of the pinout to double check. She will certainly message back if there's anything else she's not sure of...as we know lol!!
> 
> ...


 

 So far MsX has been great with treating her clients right. Nevertheless this is an altogether different situation: if the culprit is indeed the adapter and the damage is costly/permanent, the reimbursement costs might drive her to treat me otherwise. What do you think?
  
 Still, I am going to let her know as per @hypnos1's advice because she should be given a chance to protect other potential clients from a general design flaw as soon as possible.
  
 #Update:
 Here's a copy of the message I sent her.


> Unfortunately I'm writing you with VERY bad news: there's a strong possibility that the adapter didn't work right with the EL12spez on the Elise and I've ended up with a dead amp...
> 
> After consulting with the rest of the Head-Fi crowd, it looks like there might be a problem with the connections on the adapter. Member @hypnos1 tried a similar pair of Telefunken EL12spez with his own wiring and found them to work out perfectly on his amp. As per his instructions, he advised me to write you and ask you to check VERY carefully your layout, and make sure especially that grid #2 (which is on a different pin to the standard EL12) is in fact connected to the anode and routed to pin #2(anode) at the 6SN7/6AS7G end.
> 
> ...


----------



## angpsi

> Update #3


  
 Not good news after all...
  


> On 9 Feb 2017, at 10:29 AM, Feliks Audio <info@feliksaudio.pl> wrote:
> 
> Hi Angelos
> Thanks for your email and sorry for late reply. Not good news indeed. The el12/11 are not tubes we officially recommend to use. I know in practice some people use it but we cant guarantee such use will not damage the amp. From what you describe this may have happend to your Elise. I believe i can only recommend to send it back to us for repair and we take it from there.
> ...


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> So far MsX has been great with treating her clients right. Nevertheless this is an altogether different situation: if the culprit is indeed the adapter and the damage is costly/permanent, the reimbursement costs might drive her to treat me otherwise. What do you think?
> 
> Still, I am going to let her know as per @hypnos1's advice because she should be given a chance to protect other potential clients from a general design flaw as soon as possible.


 
 Bummer!
  
 I've recently re-ordered a couple of these adapters. Lost two that were sent earlier!


----------



## Spork67

howie13 said:


> angpsi said:
> 
> 
> > So far MsX has been great with treating her clients right. Nevertheless this is an altogether different situation: if the culprit is indeed the adapter and the damage is costly/permanent, the reimbursement costs might drive her to treat me otherwise. What do you think?
> ...


 
 That might be a really lucky loss if the adapters are responsible for @angpsi problem.


----------



## HOWIE13

spork67 said:


> That might be a really lucky loss if the adapters are responsible for @angpsi problem.


 
 - and I was blaming the wife for throwing out the box during one of her tidying frenzies!


----------



## angpsi

@hypnos1 , @Oskari  could it be that the Telefunkens have a different layout than, say, the RFTs?
  
 Here's the reply from xulingmrs


> Hi,please give me El12spez adapter top side photos.EL12 pinout different EL12spez,BUT all G2 pin must connect to Anode pin to 6SN7 pin,so the adapter base layout board is same board,only solder lead wire for anode Cap.please see EL12 and EL12spez pin out diagram.my UK friend Howard already get the adapter working fine.can you tell me what's brand EL12spez tube?
> Thanks!


 
  
 For your reference, here are the pics I sent MrsX from the top side of my TFs


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> - and I was blaming the wife for throwing out the box during one of her tidying frenzies!


 

 That's ALWAYS wrong, regardless of the occasional lucky strike! Applies equally to wives as well as moms!


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @angpsi...that's really sad news - must have been a major attack on Elise after all! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  
 This is indeed always the risk we take when moving away from stock configuration...and even when others have had no similar problems! (But of course, no-one else had yet tried those new adapters for the Spezial tubes, so we can't be sure if they are in fact the cause...).
  
 Have just seen your post re. MrsX's reply, and it would appear they have indeed made sure of the g2/anode connection...but still test your adapters to confirm they are in fact linked OK.
  
 She obviously doesn't realise @HOWIE13 hasn't yet been able to test his own adapters lol!
  
 Really sorry your amp didn't come back to life, and that it seems it will have to be a repair job...and, of course, F-A have stated they can no longer cover any use of tubes other than stock configuration...there's not very good news from F-A either re. our use of the EL11 (and therefore the EL12), which I shall post separately after this...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 All the best...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

*IMPORTANT NEWS FROM F-A Re. EL11 and EL12*
  
Hi guys...sad news alas from Lukasz after their further testing of the EL11....they cannot unfortunately give official recommendation/sanction for use of this tube and neither, therefore, the EL12....




  
 Apparently the working parameters are "all over the place", straying far from the amp's configuration. They do not, however, know whether this would/could actually cause damage to the amp, and it would require much more extensive stress testing to ascertain fully...(which we cannot really expect them to undertake... with Elise - and Euforia - not being designed for this type of tube in the first place LOL!!).
  
 And so once again, we who use these tubes are most definitely doing so _*at our own risk*_...no-one can know what long-term use may cause, unfortunately.
  
 This is indeed very sad news...and also, of course, because I was hoping they would then be happy to make their own approved adapters.
  
 However, given the number of people who have put many hours on the EL11 especially, I personally am prepared to continue taking the risk with these tubes...and, for now, the EL12...(but I shall be keeping my ears peeled for the _slightest_ hint of anything _mildly_ untoward lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
*But anyone else choosing to do so must take note of this latest development when making their own decision*...
  
 Best wishes to you all....CJ


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
 Thanks for checking up for us all H1, and reminding us of the inherent risks we take using non-standard/non-recommended tubes.
  
 I suppose we can gain some comfort that at least F-A haven't vetoed the use of these tubes on the basis that they will definitely be likely to harm the amp, and I guess that puts them in the same category as other non-recommended tubes like C3g, EL3N, 6BL7, 6N7, and the many 9 pin Novals, all of which we also use at our own risk.
  
 The shame, as you say, is that F-A won't be making their own EL11/12 adapter but, even so, I have full confidence in Mrs X, based on past experience and your confirmation that the connections in her spez adapter are correct.   
  
 Given this, and the fact these tubes sound so exceptionally good in Elise, like you I'm also going to continue to enjoy them until such time as I get the urge to purchase Euforia or by then maybe you will have used your influence with F-A to encourage them to make their next upgrade an amp based on EL11/12 tubes.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Once I receive my spez adapters I'll test them in my el cheapo Chinese amp, which I use mainly for testing dodgy tubes anyway, and report back. 
  
 Cheers


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> @hypnos1
> 
> Thanks for checking up for us all H1, and reminding us of the inherent risks we take using non-standard/non-recommended tubes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed H13...we have been using triode-strapped pentodes for a VERY long while now, and it would appear these tubes haven't in fact caused any noticeable problems lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...which is why I still have no qualms about using them myself (especially also as the EL11 is basically the same spec as the EL3N...).
  
 An amp properly configured for the EL11/12 would surely be great, but without a reliable supply of modern tubes, I doubt any manufacturer would consider such an undertaking, unfortunately...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Good idea having an expendable amp for test purposes...I had a LittleBear P8 for that (extremely good for the price!), but now big brother has it....unfortunately lol!
  
@angpsi's unfortunate experience really is a mystery now, as it would appear MrsX has got things right in the adapter...really strange...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...it will indeed be very interesting to see how you yourself fare with the Spezials. At least I can now go ahead and do a proper job of adapting my RFT tube...and work out a way of making @UntilThen's unsightly sticking out the top (which I do agree with!) look a bit more interesting...something incorporating a nice blue glow downwards into the tube might just fill the bill LOL?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....IF I get the time, that is! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## DecentLevi

@angpsi I was thinking about your Elise problem on my drive home, how it seems mysteriously strange how _any _tubes could possibly make the Elise work _backwards _even after using them (produces sound when switched off, hum when on), then it hit me: check your input wiring! _Backwards _may be the key word here. I remembered with 1-2 of my amps before I had mistakenly put the input thru the line-in (output instead of input) momentarily. Not wanting to repeat as an experiment, I believe it may have been a very similar problem as yours, volume knob not working and low gain, maybe even sound when powered off as well. Sometimes the 'dumbest' solution is actually the most apt - worth a try anyway!


----------



## angpsi

decentlevi said:


> @angpsi I was thinking about your Elise problem on my drive home, how it seems mysteriously strange how _any _tubes could possibly make the Elise work _backwards _even after using them (produces sound when switched off, hum when on), then it hit me: check your input wiring! _Backwards _may be the key word here. I remembered with 1-2 of my amps before I had mistakenly put the input thru the line-in (output instead of input) momentarily. Not wanting to repeat as an experiment, I believe it may have been a very similar problem as yours, volume knob not working and low gain, maybe even sound when powered off as well. Sometimes the 'dumbest' solution is actually the most apt - worth a try anyway!


 

 Seriously man, like, how stupid would I be to... Oh wait!!!!   ...
  
 ... (baffled and speechless)
  
 OK then, now that @DecentLevi *magically remedied* my Elise, it looks like in both of my adapters the anode cap connects to _two_ pins on the top and bottom side of the adapter's base. On the top side it energizes the two positions adjacent to the anode cap wire, and on the bottom side it energizes #2 and #5 pin counting clockwise from the tip of the center post.
  
 Here are some photos of the test results (same results for both adapters; I'm only posting for one experiment),
   
  
   
  
 Here are the 'active' positions marked with a marker.
   
  
 Is this as expected @hypnos1?


----------



## UntilThen

I thought of saying a million things but in the end I said nothing. I have great restraint. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Instead I retreat to enjoy the 7th wonders. My 2nd Telefunken EL12 works. It's going to be an enjoyable night running all Telefunken EL11 and EL12.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> @hypnos1, @Oskari could it be that the Telefunkens have a different layout than, say, the RFTs?




They seem to have the same connections.

Edit: Based on datasheets.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> I thought of saying a million things but in the end I said nothing. I have great restraint.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

@UntilThen I take it that your comment is in reference to my _[fill in the proper adjective here]_ stupidity? I cannot begin to apologise about having everyone breaking their heads to solve the mystery... yet if it wasn't so, no-one would have the chance to marvel at @DecentLevi's deductive skills and overall ingenuity!
  
 Regardless, there are some minor issues to consider still. For one thing, the EL12spez / adapters are still buzzing [having established my status as a fool, I foolishly tried the tubes again to make sure whether the problem persists], therefore there's still a mystery to be solved here. Second, I could still notice a barely audible hum on the left channel when I tested with the EL11/EL12n combo.
  
 Thankfully stock tubes work perfectly with no hum whatsoever, albeit I did accidentally find that for some reason they _have_ to be placed _exactly_ as per Feliks Audio's instructions (actually, can anyone explain to me why this is so?). And, wonder of wonders, the sound is as enjoyable as I could remember it while waiting for my NOS varieties, i.e. details, great instrument separation, nice airy rendering, tight basslines etc.. Since you were the one to suggest it first, the La La Land score (music, not OST), along with Go Go Penguin et al. sound amazing with this combo.
  
 If one absolutely has to nag, I _could_ say that there's no 'vintage' feel which I'd personally attribute to the less pronounced midrange (albeit very tightly and precisely articulated). Of course, one should also take into consideration the character of the HD600s; based on yours and others' descriptions, I take it T1s would probably sound very different with this combo. On the same argument though, maybe the HD650 would benefit of the less pronounced mid and the added precision.
  
 So it's back to stock configuration for a while, if anything to settle my tormented soul.
  
 Then again, I wonder where's the fun if Feliks Audio got it right in the first place?


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> @angpsi I was thinking about your Elise problem on my drive home, how it seems mysteriously strange how _any _tubes could possibly make the Elise work _backwards _even after using them (produces sound when switched off, hum when on), then it hit me: check your input wiring! _Backwards _may be the key word here. I remembered with 1-2 of my amps before I had mistakenly put the input thru the line-in (output instead of input) momentarily. Not wanting to repeat as an experiment, I believe it may have been a very similar problem as yours, volume knob not working and low gain, maybe even sound when powered off as well. Sometimes the 'dumbest' solution is actually the most apt - worth a try anyway!


 

 In the words of CF: "Huh?"


----------



## connieflyer

PCT let me explain we'll break this down as simply as possible. H is for our King overseas you is for our King Down Under, H is for the second letter in your name, simple!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> PCT let me explain we'll break this down as simply as possible. H is for our King overseas you is for our King Down Under, H is for the second letter in your name, simple!


 

 It's difficult to imagine mornings without your "learning moments"


----------



## HOWIE13

@angpsi
  
 Sorry I'm a bit 'Elised out' this morning, having listened to her most of the night, so are you saying your amp is working fine and it was just a connection issue?
 If so, this is cause for celebration and congrats to DL!
  
  
 Am I right though in thinking there is still a problem with the spez tubes since they buzz loudly enough to prevent enjoyment of the music? That's a pity as I think yesterday you said they sounded good from what you could manage to hear.
  
 Also, you have intrusive hum in one channel using EL11/12 combos.
  
 Your stock tubes sound fine.
  
 I'm obviously interested as I'm waiting for my spez adapters to arrive and am now much re-assured!   
  
 Cheers


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> @angpsi
> 
> Sorry I'm a bit 'Elised out' this morning, having listened to her most of the night, so are you saying your amp is working fine and it was just a connection issue?
> If so, this is cause for celebration and congrats to DL!
> ...


 

 Hi @HOWIE13, here's a quick summary for the benefit of your 'Elised out' morning self:

The dead volume knob, passthrough music, etc. were because of my silly plugging in the input cable to the Line-out pins on the Elise. I honestly can't remember when that happened; probably sometime when I started moving the amp around to get rid of the EL12spez interference.
The TF EL12spez/adapters are still buzzing. They are also extremely susceptible to how I move the HD600 cable around. I tested both of my adapters and posted the results here. Since I have no experience with the circuitries—or, tubes in general for that matter—I can't say whether there's an issue with the adapters or the tubes. Hopefully you or others may be able to comment on my findings.
The Elise is working fine now in stock configuration. When I tried the EL11/12n configuration I could still hear a very—_very—_low but audible buzz on one channel, but nothing intrusive.
  
 I've written to Lukasz with today's updates, and hopefully I'll be able to return with his comments. As far as I'm concerned, I'd advise you to wait for someone to comment on my testing the adapters before you fit them on your Elise. If anything, I still can't explain the buzz on the EL11/12n combo as it wasn't there before.
  
 If you have a multi–meter, or access to an electrician as I did, it would be very helpful if you tested the adapters yourself as per @hypnos1's instructions (posted here).


----------



## DecentLevi

Angpsi, glad that did the trick. Yup, routing the audio output to the line out output of your Elise will cause a fixed volume, as the line-out is connected to the headphone out, after the volume stage. Those were the symptoms I noticed when mistakenly trying it, and luckily with nothing untowards after the fact.
  
 For me, the EL12 spezial seem special only in a dys or _non_-functional kind of way, though I would like to see your problem resolved. Here's a video I thought would be fitting for your Elise:
  
 /img/vimeo_logo.png


----------



## angpsi

decentlevi said:


> Angpsi, glad that did the trick. Yup, routing the audio output to the line out output of your Elise will cause a fixed volume, as the line-out is connected to the headphone out, after the volume stage. Those were the symptoms I noticed when mistakenly trying it, and luckily with nothing untowards after the fact.
> 
> For me, the EL12 spezial seem special only in a dys or _non_-functional kind of way, though I would like to see your problem resolved. Here's a video I thought would be fitting for your Elise:
> 
> /img/vimeo_logo.png


 

 Haha, nice! Good movie, too! Let's hope it never comes to this!
  
 Your insight was invaluable; guess it explains the technician's routine which starts by asking clients whether they indeed plugged their computers in on the power outlet!


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Hi @HOWIE13, here's a quick summary for the benefit of your 'Elised out' morning self:
> 
> The dead volume knob, passthrough music, etc. were because of my silly plugging in the input cable to the Line-out pins on the Elise. I honestly can't remember when that happened; probably sometime when I started moving the amp around to get rid of the EL12spez interference.
> The TF EL12spez/adapters are still buzzing. They are also extremely susceptible to how I move the HD600 cable around. I tested both of my adapters and posted the results here. Since I have no experience with the circuitries—or, tubes in general for that matter—I can't say whether there's an issue with the adapters or the tubes. Hopefully you or others may be able to comment on my findings.
> ...


 
 Thanks for clarifying- I' thinking more clearly now.
  
 So when I get my spez adapters I'll try them on my cheap Chinese amp first to see if anything happens. It has a 6AS7 socket, which I use to test dubious tubes.
  
 As for your wish for a 'vintage' sound, you should get this, at least what I call 'vintage'-like 1950's vinyl/radio sound, with the HD650- less with the HD600.
  
 However, I suspect the reason you are not hearing it at present may be your Psvane drivers.
 The normal stock Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB drivers, combined with the stock Russian Powers (6H13P, from memory), provide a warm, voluptuous and pretty 'vintage 'sound to me with my HD650.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Hi @HOWIE13, here's a quick summary for the benefit of your 'Elised out' morning self:
> 
> The dead volume knob, passthrough music, etc. were because of my silly plugging in the input cable to the Line-out pins on the Elise. I honestly can't remember when that happened; probably sometime when I started moving the amp around to get rid of the EL12spez interference.
> The TF EL12spez/adapters are still buzzing. They are also extremely susceptible to how I move the HD600 cable around. I tested both of my adapters and posted the results here. Since I have no experience with the circuitries—or, tubes in general for that matter—I can't say whether there's an issue with the adapters or the tubes. Hopefully you or others may be able to comment on my findings.
> ...


 
 I'm curious as to what questions you have asked Lukasz. It seems your problems are with the adapters and tubes other than F-A provided ones. I don't understand what help Lukasz would be with that.
  
 I can certainly understand accidentally plugging into the wrong RCA plugs. I once accidentally plugged my vacuum cleaner into Elise and all I heard was a loud "wooooshing" sound.


----------



## connieflyer

I did that once and plugged my cable into the wrong receptacle and heard lots of noise! YMMV!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I did that once and plugged my cable into the wrong receptacle and heard lots of noise! YMMV!


 

 Thanks for your helpful comment. I don't think we provide adequate warnings here about the dangers of receptacles.


----------



## HOWIE13

@angpsi
  
 RCA 6AS7 power tubes also give a very nice warm sound, probably a bit warmer than the stock Russians. The RCA is a very good tube for that particular sound signature.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> Thanks for clarifying- I' thinking more clearly now.
> 
> So when I get my spez adapters I'll try them on my cheap Chinese amp first to see if anything happens. It has a 6AS7 socket, which I use to test dubious tubes.
> 
> ...


 

 In regard to spez adapters: I'd be grateful if you tested the circuitry same way I did. This way we can compare directly and you won't be risking to be unnecessarily cruel to your lab rat of an amp. 
  
 In regard to 'vintage' sound: I actually like the analytical sound; it's part of my pedigree from my ATC system, which is ruthlessly dissecting anything you throw at it. Still, since I will be looking for alternative sound signatures (c.f. Stavros) such as 'vintage' and 'voluptuous' perhaps an HD650 might be an option in some foreseeable future, especially if I get it at a decent price.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> In regard to spez adapters: I'd be grateful if you tested the circuitry same way I did. This way we can compare directly and you won't be risking to be unnecessarily cruel to your lab rat of an amp.
> 
> In regard to 'vintage' sound: I actually like the analytical sound; it's part of my pedigree from my ATC system, which is ruthlessly dissecting anything you throw at it. Still, since I will be looking for alternative sound signatures (c.f. Stavros) such as 'vintage' and 'voluptuous' perhaps an HD650 might be an option in some foreseeable future, especially if I get it at a decent price.


 
 Oh, sorry-somehow I had the impression you already had the HD650.
 I can certainly say the T1g2 does it all for me.
  
 I'm not a testing sort of person but if mine don't work I'll send them to someone to dissect.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I'm curious as to what questions you have asked Lukasz. It seems your problems are with the adapters and tubes other than F-A provided ones. I don't understand what help Lukasz would be with that.
> 
> I can certainly understand accidentally plugging into the wrong RCA plugs. I once accidentally plugged my vacuum cleaner into Elise and all I heard was a loud "wooooshing" sound.


 

 For one thing, I still need _someone's_ expertise to explain to me whether something's wrong with the adapters. Furthermore, so far as I understand, the use of the EL11/12 has been a topic of discussion between @hypnos1 and the Feliks family; and I am in fact worried that the problem I encountered may have been part of the reason why Feliks Audio is refusing to sanction the use of the EL11/12 and make their own official adapters. Overall, I felt I should inform them of my findings and what happened in general.
  
 In regard to your "whooshing" sound, I'm sure if you use @HOWIE13's RCA 6AS7 it would come up sounding something like this:


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> I can certainly say the T1g2 does it all for me.


 
  
 I'm saving up for these; the HD600 already give me plenty of analytical and all of you here in this group have gotten me plenty excited about the T1.


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Seriously man, like, how stupid would I be to... Oh wait!!!!   ...
> 
> ... (baffled and speechless)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi angpsi...THANK HEAVENS Elise is OK - you did indeed have us all worried...both for you _*and*_ the amp lol!!... (you're not the first to make this mistake! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). We do normally ask folks to check connections etc. etc. before blaming tubes/adapters/amp itself, but I suppose it was the 'exotic' nature of the experiment that had us pointing the finger too soon!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But well done to @DecentLevi for going back to basics...which so often _*are*_ the cause of 'problems' LOL!
  
 Those connections do indeed look OK from here, but one has to assume that all is otherwise OK inside the adapter...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...which brings me to the subject of your 'buzz'. You will need to try *every* possible combination of drivers (not just the EL11s) with the 12 Spezials (also swapped between adapters) to try and pinpoint _*precisely*_ which tube/adapter/combination could be the culprit, via elimination. And from the sound of it, you now need to do the same with your 12Ns!! Your makeshift 'Faraday' cages should help with any possible interference problems.
 Once again, you may also need to play around with the anode cap connection...these sometimes appear to be 'tricky', especially if the fit isn't very tight...(but then, if _too_ tight, with excessive pulling/twisting the tube cap can come loose!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... No wonder a lot of folks just can't be bothered with these top-anode tubes LOL!!!).
  
 And so good luck with your full testing...hopefully it should narrow things down to exactly which tube or/and adapter is the culprit....you'll need a bit of patience for this task, but should be worth it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> Thanks for the info. A cursory glance tells me that those numbers inside the stylized M and P do not tell you who the tube manufacturer is. Instead they tell you where the plastic base was made and of what kind of materials.




Yes.




mordy said:


> Here are two anonymous EL11 tubes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The number 906 refers to the factory that made the base.




mordy said:


> The next tube is missing the furungstift (guide pin) - not much of a problem since the base has the pins in groups of three and four and you cannot go wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think they are both RFT tubes. The one marked 50-51 is probably earlier. That's a WW-YY date. My guess is that they were made at the factory in Neuhaus am Rennweg. This was a former Telefunken factory. No relation to Loewe-Opta. I suppose Mühlhausen is a possibility for the later tube. This factory had a certain historical connection to both Lorenz and Loewe-Opta.




oskari said:


> > RFT stands for Rundfunk- und Fernmelde-Technik - a group of state-owned technology companies in the former German Democratic Republic (East Germany).
> > — Watford Valves
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hast Du mir gesehen - this is a RFT tube!  It also says VEB and 906 (another tube says 908). Above it it says ELRADO (not shown).
> ...




Which apparently was VEB Elektro- und Radiozubehör Dorfhain.



 http://www.oldtimeradio.de/firma-211.php


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again @angpsi...re. your comments related to F-A's inability/unwillingness to sanction the non-stock tube families (ANY others in fact!!), the problem lies in something that I feel is worth reminding everyone about...ie. when using tubes that differ from strict configuration, there is in fact a whole host of *other* factors that will affect the final outcome...to quite a surprising degree!...from the quality of the mains electricity supply and cables, through original signal source and DAC to headphones used...not to mention the degree of external RFI and EMI sources of interference!! The latter especially can be a big problem for those _unlucky few_ who suffer from this to a much greater degree than average,* particularly* when using pentode tubes like the C3g/EL3N/EL11/EL12...sometimes to the degree where they cannot really be used at all lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (And this is why sometimes additional small resistors are placed in the pentode's grid lines to try and counter such interference...but I (and others) have found this can degrade the sound quality a fair amount for those who don't actually suffer too much from the problem and therefore don't need them!).
  
 Trouble is, of course, you can't really know just how lucky/unlucky you're going to be *until you try them!!*





...This is why no matter how many of us have successful results with any particular tube, there is _*no guarantee*_ that everyone is going to be so lucky, considering each person's unique situation regarding those applicable factors I mentioned. And this, of course, is why no amp manufacturer is willing to take the risk of recommending such practices...regrettably, but understandably lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 All we can ever hope for is that the *majority* of folks have the same luck as the early pioneers of alternative tube use..and this has indeed proved to be the case with all our latest non-stock tubes...so far!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(when the tubes themselves aren't faulty, that is!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). And so I do hope that you yourself finally manage to end up being one of the (many!) LUCKY ONES!...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> You will need to try *every* possible combination of drivers (not just the EL11s) with the 12 Spezials (also swapped between adapters) to try and pinpoint _*precisely*_ which tube/adapter/combination could be the culprit, via elimination. And from the sound of it, you now need to do the same with your 12Ns!! Your makeshift 'Faraday' cages should help with any possible interference problems.
> Once again, you may also need to play around with the anode cap connection...these sometimes appear to be 'tricky', especially if the fit isn't very tight...(but then, if _too_ tight, with excessive pulling/twisting the tube cap can come loose!!
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Easy test; I only have two drivers, the RFT EL11 and the Psvanes. The test went like this:
  

Cleaned up the contacts of the TF EL12spez with Isopropanol as per @Oskari's advice just to eliminate this factor. Every single combination with the Spez is still buzzing loudly. Changing slots didn't work either. Faraday cage may help somewhat, but moving the HD600's cable quickly messes things up.
The Siemens EL12n work great, no buzz whatsoever with either combination. They turn out to be a revelation. Combined with the Psvanes they give me stock sound (as described earlier) on steroids. Pushes things a bit more forward, soundstage–wise. Combined with the RFT EL11 they give me a bass boost (far from booming, just a more pronounced quality bass overall). I'm not sure which I prefer, but the EL12n gave me an unintended "wow" moment in spite of the fact I was prejudiced greatly from suffering with my misadventures.
I went crazy and used the Spez adapters with the regular EL12ns. They work. They also allow the EL12ns to sit flush with the adapter surface. What do you know?...
Tried using one EL12spez and one EL12n. The EL12spez buzzes. Once I hold the cable with my fingers the buzzing stops. The buzzing is definitely susceptible to how the HD600 cable moves around. When the buzz stopped I got rewarded with a beautiful sound from the spez, as I believe I could notice slight differences between the channel that was driven by the 12spez and the channel that was driven by the 12n. I think the spez comes off as more 'liquid'.
  
 Conclusion? RF interference? Is it the adapter cable, the HD600 cable, or both combined? Still, I can attest that the EL12 are an interesting breed.
  
 Here are some photos of my escapades:
 The Siemens EL12n combined with the Psvane.

 The Siemens EL12n combined with the RFT EL11.

 Setting up one channel with the Telefunken EL12spez and one channel with the Siemens EL12n.

 The penultimate solution to the buzzing problem, albeit hardly efficient in terms of general functionality and ergonomics.


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  believe me I said nothing. The closest utterable word my cavoodle heard me mutter was 'Huh?', which @connieflyer  has expertly explained what it means.
  
 I try not to use adapters as far as possible but unfortunately all my favorite tubes requires adapters. Some gets hum and interference more than others. I am quite humphrey though. However as I said in a previous post, HD600 and HD650 are more sensitive to such interference than T1. Moving the cable does help.


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> oskari said:
> 
> 
> > mordy said:
> ...




In fact, the 54 on your other tube gives the same company. It was known as Ellinger & Geissler before expropriation.



 http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=11126


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Many thanks for finding the origin of the EL11 tubes. Three more mysteries to me:
  
 Valvo EL11 code MX1 G9D
  
 Valvo EL12 code MY2 GOA and FBSB
  
 Unknown EL12 375V  code DM  PmB


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again @angpsi...re. your comments related to F-A's inability/unwillingness to sanction the non-stock tube families (ANY others in fact!!), the problem lies in something that I feel is worth reminding everyone about...ie. when using tubes that differ from strict configuration, there is in fact a whole host of *other* factors that will affect the final outcome...to quite a surprising degree!...from the quality of the mains electricity supply and cables, through original signal source and DAC to headphones used...not to mention the degree of external RFI and EMI sources of interference!! The latter especially can be a big problem for those _unlucky few_ who suffer from this to a much greater degree than average,* particularly* when using pentode tubes like the C3g/EL3N/EL11/EL12...sometimes to the degree where they cannot really be used at all lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I was thinking about the exact same thing as I was writing my answer to @pctazhp, namely that FA cannot possibly take responsibility for the many outside factors that may interfere with their original design. The fact that the Elise affords great levels of successful experimentation with a variety of tubes doesn't counterbalance the possibility of the problematic situations that may occur within this experimentation, something which they can't possibly predict and therefore cover in their warranty. As such, it is very understandable to stay _strictly_ on the safe side as far as they are officially concerned.
  
 On the other hand I find that your logic about 'sanctioned' tubes and official adapters does make sense within reason, because IMO the Elise and Feliks Audio in general owe a great deal to the pioneering experimentation of this here crazy and globe–spreading Head-Fi bunch! So who know what the future may hold for us...
  
 Cheers!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Easy test; I only have two drivers, the RFT EL11 and the Psvanes. The test went like this:
> 
> 
> Cleaned up the contacts of the TF EL12spez with Isopropanol as per @Oskari's advice just to eliminate this factor. Every single combination with the Spez is still buzzing loudly. Changing slots didn't work either. Faraday cage may help somewhat, but moving the HD600's cable quickly messes things up.
> ...


 
  
 Very interesting findings. The fact that the hum disappears when you touch (using UT's characteristically colorful description) the Octopus cable, suggests to me it may be a ground loop problem and a Faraday cage may not help. But the fact that moving the headphone cable affects it is puzzling.
  
 For a long time the Psvanes upgrade was almost never mentioned on any of the Elise threads. It was almost as if it was socially unacceptable to do so. But your experience with them certainly must be wetting the appetites of those waiting for Euforiia.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> @angpsi  believe me I said nothing. The closest utterable word my cavoodle heard me mutter was 'Huh?', which @connieflyer  has expertly explained what it means.
> 
> I try not to use adapters as far as possible but unfortunately all my favorite tubes requires adapters. Some gets hum and interference more than others. I am quite humphrey though. However as I said in a previous post, HD600 and HD650 are more sensitive to such interference than T1. Moving the cable does help.


 

 Is there any merit to aftermarket cables in regard to this issue?
  
 Btw, since you're smitten with the EL11/12 combo, try listening to this record. This gave me my EL11/12n "wow" moment.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Is there any merit to aftermarket cables in regard to this issue?


 
  
 Starting an aftermarket cable company for any cables is a guaranteed path to immense fame and fortune.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Very interesting findings. The fact that the hum disappears when you touch (using UT's characteristically colorful description) the Octopus cable, suggests to me it may be a ground loop problem and a Faraday cage may not help. But the fact that moving the headphone cable affects it is puzzling.
> 
> For a long time the Psvanes upgrade was almost never mentioned on any of the Elise threads. It was almost as if it was socially unacceptable to do so. But your experience with them certainly must be wetting the appetites of those waiting for Euforiia.


 

 Puzzling indeed...
  
 As for the Psvane, I think it really depends on the kind of the music. Right now I'm listening to the Clapton/BBKing record on the EL12n/EL11 combo and it blows the EL12n/Psvane away. On the other hand, the La La Land movie score is insanely enjoyable on the Psvanes combined either with the 12n, or the stock TungSols.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Starting an aftermarket cable company for any cables is a guaranteed path to immense fame and fortune.


 

 So you're one of the sceptics then, aren't you?


----------



## HOWIE13

I have a question and I'll perfectly understand if nobody answers it.
  
 Why does Elise sound so especially good with tubes that stray so far away from the amps intended characteristic limits?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> So you're one of the sceptics then, aren't you?


 

 Yes. Tens of thousands of dollars later


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I have a question and I'll perfectly understand if nobody answers it.
> 
> Why does Elise sound so especially good with tubes that stray so far away from the amps intended characteristic limits?


 

 I have no idea. But it may help to remember that most tubes crazy nuts like us use were never intended for use as audio tubes. I suspect a lot of tube amp design is trial and error. We just continue the experimentation.
  
 Edit:  Also keep in mind as has been said many times, tube amp manufacturers have to design around readily available current production tubes. For us, the harder a tube is to get and the more expensive it is the better it must be. I think an amp designer could easily design around current production tubes and inadvertently design an amp that is adaptable to a much wider selection of old tubes, without even thinking or caring about that. FA may be a case in point.
  
 More edit: And lest we forget, the tube will be even better if it requires an adapter designed by a team of Octopusi.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> I have a question and I'll perfectly understand if nobody answers it.
> 
> Why does Elise sound so especially good with tubes that stray so far away from the amps intended characteristic limits?


 

 My guess is that it reflects the vices of its co-creator, namely @hypnos1; i.e. design something purposed for the excellent tubes in his collection only to make one desperately seeking for more!!


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Yes. Tens of thousands of dollars later


 

 So you say something like this won't help me with my RFI issues?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Whiplash-Audio-TWag-v2-Sennheiser-replacement-upgrade-cable-HD650-HD600-HD25-1-2-/181898419761


----------



## angpsi

Or, for something cheaper: http://www.silversonic.com/docs/products/HP-1.html


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> Many thanks for finding the origin of the EL11 tubes. Three more mysteries to me:
> 
> ...




Ah, Philips codes.



 Loewe-Opta, Apr 59
 Loewe-Opta, Jan 60
 Valvo, Hamburg, Oct 51


----------



## UntilThen

I doubt aftermarket cables will solve your RFI issues. The Senns HD6xx are just inherently more sensitive. I once heard the movie dialogue from my TV in the lounge on my HD650 but I was in my study. It pick up the TV signal. Weird. Someday I might hear Pct's voice from across the oceans. 
  
 I love that blues album 'Riding with the King'. It's my 4am relaxation and with the EL13 tubes, I can visualize the Brazilian dancer gyrating in slow rhythm to the music.


----------



## pctazhp

Gyration is good.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Happy to hear that all is well and that my prediction two days ago was correct: _I am sure that the amp will come back to it's old self!_
  
 Re the wire that stops humming when you touch it - can it be grounded? But first ask the people who understand these things if it is OK to do it. 
  
 Re hum I have had a number of problems because of the snake nest of wires in my listening room and untold ground loops. I am too old to crawl around and tried to identify the culprit(s) of 28 years of accumulated wires and connecting cables.
  
 In any case, if I can get a tube combination not to hum at  normal to loud listening levels I am happy, and the tubes I am currently using are humpfrey for all practical purposes. Usually I try out a new combination without a source playing and turn up my 110W amp to max. It usually hums somewhat at max, but these levels are unlistenable being too loud. Sometimes the hum does not disappear at normal levels, but at times it is faint enough to be masked by the music. At other times it is a no go.....


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Gyration is good.


 

 If it's done by the Brazilian dancer. Any other gyrations will definitely destroy my visualizations.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Thanks for deciphering the codes! I had a feeling that D M meant Deutsche Mark or something like that.....


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> If it's done by the Brazilian dancer. Any other gyrations will definitely destroy my visualizations.


 

 Here's a most decadent variation, should you consider visiting Greece. (be advised it can get even more decadent, here I'm just offering the gourmet variety)


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> Happy to hear that all is well and that my prediction two days ago was correct: _I am sure that the amp will come back to it's old self!_


 
  
 The amp never left it's old self. There was nothing wrong with it.


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> Happy to hear that all is well and that my prediction two days ago was correct: _I am sure that the amp will come back to it's old self!_
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks @mordy, this is one time when hearing someone saying "I told you so" is actually a relief!
  
 Re: grounding; unfortunately I had just finished writing to MrsX with my latest update when you wrote these lines, so I didn't get the chance to ask her specifically on this issue. At this point I've sent her too many emails; I'll just wait for her to reply and then mention your suggestion.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Here's a most decadent variation, should you consider visiting Greece. (be advised it can get even more decadent, here I'm just offering the gourmet variety)


 
  
 Would be lovely to visit Greece one day but we do have kebabs in Sydney. That similar picture is what I see at the kebab's shop here except they are motorized and doesn't use that manual turning handle. Also the slab of meat are skewered and positioned vertically instead of horizontally.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Would be lovely to visit Greece one day but we do have kebabs in Sydney. That similar picture is what I see at the kebab's shop here except they are motorized and doesn't use that manual turning handle. Also the slab of meat are skewered and positioned vertically instead of horizontally.


 

 vertically is the regular thing here too. But as I said, I offered the gourmet variety!
  
 (e.g. take notice of the potatoes at the bottom)
  
 Edit: here's the vertical one


----------



## connieflyer

I had the 650's for about 4 years I had two pair. I purchased two aftermarket cables and found that there was a difference from the stock cable. One cable sounded a little bit better not worth the extra price I paid for it and the second cable sounded just slightly worse than the stock cable. I can see where they do make a slight difference, difference between night and day I doubt it, if it did the headphone manufacturer itself wouldn't have to spend that much on research and development for a new set of cans he would instead spend all that money on the cable to make it Head and Shoulders above the current standard. Now your mileage may vary I'm just giving you my information that I found to be valid


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Thanks @mordy, this is one time when hearing someone saying "I told you so" is actually a relief!
> 
> Re: grounding; unfortunately I had just finished writing to MrsX with my latest update and I didn't get the chance to ask her specifically on this issue. At this point I've sent her too many emails; I'll just wait for her to reply and then mention your suggestion.


 

 I have a thought. Maybe you could take two runs of circuit wire. Strip one end of each to expose enough wire to wrap the end of each around each Octopus wire several times. Connect the other ends together and find a ground point to attach them to. Maybe use an alligator clip to attach that end to the outer ring (ensuring you don't accidentally make contact with the inner recepticle) of one of the RCA outputs on Elise. Don't know if this will help, but might be an interesting experiment.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I have a thought. Maybe you could take two runs of circuit wire. Strip one end of each to expose enough wire to wrap the end of each around each Octopus wire several times. Connect the other ends together and find a ground point to attach them to. Maybe use an alligator clip to attach that end to the outer ring (ensuring you don't accidentally make contact with the inner recepticle) of one of the RCA outputs on Elise. Don't know if this will help, but might be an interesting experiment.


 
  
 Schematics, please?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Schematics, please?


 

 I'm a lawyer. I will be happy to send you proposed legal disclaimers for any liability resulting from death, mayhem or gyrations. But will have to depend on one of our men of science to interpret and reduce to schematic.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I have a thought. Maybe you could take two runs of circuit wire. Strip one end of each to expose enough wire to wrap the end of each around each Octopus wire several times. Connect the other ends together and find a ground point to attach them to. Maybe use an alligator clip to attach that end to the outer ring (ensuring you don't accidentally make contact with the inner recepticle) of one of the RCA outputs on Elise. Don't know if this will help, but might be an interesting experiment.


 

 Huh? I think angpsi should stop experimenting why his Elise is still her old self. Just get a pair of Telefunken EL12 and live happily ever after. 
  
 Meanwhile this EL12, is sounding really good. Smoother than EL12N, less sparkle, more full bodied but relaxing. There's really not that much difference.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Huh? I think angpsi should stop experimenting why his Elise is still her old self. Just get a pair of Telefunken EL12 and live happily ever after.
> 
> Meanwhile this EL12, is sounding really good. Smoother than EL12N, less sparkle, more full bodied but relaxing. There's really not that much difference.


 

 For the second part, I second that impression—unless my finger played part in the sound signature.
  
 For the first part, I'm guessing Ebay picked up on the trend and now regular EL12 cost around €100 each! Unless I sell my spez there's no way I'm financing any regular ones... ☹️


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Huh? I think angpsi should stop experimenting why his Elise is still her old self. Just get a pair of Telefunken EL12 and live happily ever after.
> 
> Meanwhile this EL12, is sounding really good. Smoother than EL12N, less sparkle, more full bodied but relaxing. There's really not that much difference.


 

 I didn't actually think he would try it. I just wanted to impress everyone with my brilliance.
  
 I have just prepared myself a cup of hot coffee to calm my nerves and allow me to recover from having had the thought. I think it's been over a year since I had my last one (thought that is).


----------



## UntilThen

I have been having coffee ever since I got Elise. It comes as a package. Brazilian coffee beans that's aromatic.
  
 On other good news, CF just had confirmation from FA that all Euforia will have the new transformer. I guess this news should go on the Euphoria's thread and I'm tired of this auto correcting my spelling of Euphoria. Hey what does it matter. I forget which thread I'm on !!!


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> For the second part, I second that impression—unless my finger played part in the sound signature.
> 
> For the first part, I'm guessing Ebay picked up on the trend and now regular EL12 cost around €100 each! Unless I sell my spez there's no way I'm financing any regular ones... ☹️


 

 Ok, I just messaged a seller to combine shipping on two TF EL12s. S#!t, I should have quitted when I was still capable to do so...
  
 Have a nice weekend everyone!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I have been having coffee ever since I got Elise. It comes as a package. Brazilian coffee beans that's aromatic.
> 
> On other good news, CF just had confirmation from FA that all Euforia will have the new transformer. I guess this news should go on the Euphoria's thread and I'm tired of this auto correcting my spelling of Euphoria. Hey what does it matter. *I forget which thread I'm on !!! *


 
 I never forget which thread you are on, because I hang on your every word !!!!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Ok, I just messaged a seller to combine shipping on two TF EL12s. S#!t, I should have quitted when I was still capable to do so...
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!


 

 Perish the thought of quitting. You have just joined a highly select group of wonderful and humble men. The tube gods have smiled down on you from CF's back yard.
  
 Happy weekend to you too ))))


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Ok, I just messaged a seller to combine shipping on two TF EL12s. S#!t, I should have quitted when I was still capable to do so...
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!




Winners are not those who never fails but those who never quit. 

Now I shall show you a picture of those Telefunken lighted up. Don't ask me why one tube is not as bright. They have different IQ.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Winners are not those who never fails but those who never quit.
> 
> Now I shall show you a picture of those Telefunken lighted up. Don't ask me why one tube is not as bright. *They have different IQ.*


 
 If anyone wonders where I get my material, you now know
  
 The top one looks like it belongs in this amp:


----------



## UntilThen

Both my Telefunken EL12 have a different structure at the top.
  
 This is the not so bright one.

  
 This is the bright spark.

  
 No difference in sound though. They sounded the same to me.


----------



## pctazhp

Great photo work UT.
  
 I think this is pretty cool:


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Great photo work UT.


 
  
 Not my photo. I pinch the photo from the seller's ads that I bought from.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Not my photo. I pinch the photo from the seller's ads that I bought from.


 
 Then great picking of sellers with pretty pictures ))))


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 This issue why one tube may be brighter than another one has come up in the past. If it is an identical pair the reason is that the heater was positioned differently in one tube.


----------



## angpsi

Couldn't leave you alone for too long; any opinions on the 'old' version vs. the 'newer' ST one?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112296183939


----------



## UntilThen

No opinion on old vs new.

However I'm sitting here listening to music as the sun comes up and Elise is hardly warm.


----------



## MIKELAP

Noticed in a post that 6BL7 and C3G tubes are not approved for use in the Elise what was the reason ?


----------



## mordy

Hi Mikelap,
  
 The same reason that a package of nuts that has no milk in the ingredients may have a statement: May contain dairy. It is there to protect themselves in case something goes wrong.
  
 A number of people have used these tubes with very good results and without any problems. The same goes for the the new wunder kinder on the block - the EL11 and EL12. They are not officially approved, but work stupendously well.
  
 ATM I am listening to the Loewe-Opta EL11 tubes (ST and short) + two RFT EL12N as power tubes - excellent sound.


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi Mikelap,
> 
> The same reason that a package of nuts that has no milk in the ingredients may have a statement: May contain dairy. It is there to protect themselves in case something goes wrong.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks mordy have been using the 6BL7 tubes for a while now along with several other guys in Woo amps with no problems  i guess gone are the days when you can get a straight answer from vendors besides price .


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> I have a question and I'll perfectly understand if nobody answers it.
> 
> Why does Elise sound so especially good with tubes that stray so far away from the amps intended characteristic limits?


 
  
 Have pumped Lukasz many times for such explanations each time I punish(ed!) Elise, and now Euforia with 'strange' tubes...and every time all at F-A just scratch their heads in wondrous disbelief lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...never more so since the 'unusual', "all over the place" readings for the EL11 (which must also apply to the EL3N therefore)!!! And so I believe this proves that even the professionals *still* don't actually know* all *there is to know about these vacuum-filled glass wonders!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...*and* that we ignorant, gung-ho amateur experimenters (not F-A's words!) can indeed sometimes stumble across things that confound the 'experts' and defy _logic_!...WONDERFUL!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


angpsi said:


> My guess is that it reflects the vices of its co-creator, namely @hypnos1; i.e. design something purposed for the excellent tubes in his collection only to make one desperately seeking for more!!


 
  
 Got me to a T, mon ami...sadly!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(but never thought such madness would lead to all the wonderful experiences here, with similarly crazy people lol!...CHEERS!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. As mentioned by @pctazhp (despite being 'on the edge' lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







), your holding the anode wire obviously indicates the need for grounding it, given your own particular circumstances...remember I stated a while back that when making my own wire, I thought I might just have to shield it. But in the end I was lucky enough not to need to. I am in fact wondering whether the wire used by adapter makers is indeed shielded - to counter RFI/EMI - but then can actually _*cause*_ hum by the metal shielding/braiding not being grounded!!!...Catch22 lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Perhaps you will indeed have luck providing this grounding..._*but only of the SHIELDING, of course!!*_ ...best wishes in this...(now you can understand why many folks just don't bother with top-anode tubes!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  


untilthen said:


> I doubt aftermarket cables will solve your RFI issues. The Senns HD6xx are just inherently more sensitive. I once heard the movie dialogue from my TV in the lounge on my HD650 but I was in my study. It pick up the TV signal. Weird. Someday I might hear Pct's voice from across the oceans.
> 
> I love that blues album 'Riding with the King'. It's my 4am relaxation and with the EL13 tubes, I can visualize the Brazilian dancer gyrating in slow rhythm to the music.


 
  
 Hi UT...was going to ask..._*and what about the TWO EL12s lol?!!*_...but now you have. Had wondered if your findings with the T1 Gen1s would differ from @HOWIE13's Gen2s, but apparently not...mind you, things will probably change a fair bit yet with further burn-in lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. So I look forward to hearing how things develop...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


angpsi said:


> Ok, I just messaged a seller to combine shipping on two TF EL12s. S#!t, I should have quitted when I was still capable to do so...
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!


 
  
 Knew it wouldn't be long before you ended up as crazy as all the rest of us here...I did warn folks a while back : *Abandon Hope all ye who Enter Here*





...and still they come...!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


untilthen said:


> Winners are not those who never fails but those who never quit.
> 
> Now I shall show you a picture of those Telefunken lighted up. Don't ask me why one tube is not as bright. They have different IQ.


 
  
 Same here UT...as reminded of by @mordy lol! (Still strange though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## angpsi

Pray for me... I just got one Valvo EL11 to pair with the one I already have, then combined shipping for a pair of regular TF EL12 coke bottles (here and here), and on top of that I negotiated a sprinkling of this for a discount.

Of course I'll have to dump some of my other tubes, most probably the RFT EL11 and the TF 12spez to cut my expenses over this escapade... Still, there's nothing like caving in to late night indulgences such as these, right?

Btw, the seller sits on a very good inventory of EL tubes and has decent prices compared to others. He also holds that the straight bottle sounds close but not quite like the coke bottle. He prefers the coke bottle better, and the TF tubes over all other varieties.

Signing off,
A.


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiwB0KNfVlo[/VIDEO]

_Caravan of Love_


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA3rJXV4R4E[/VIDEO]

_Drum Duet_


----------



## UntilThen

*Impressions on Day 1 of EL tubes.*
  
 I've been evaluating these 3 combinations namely:-
  
*1. Telefunken EL11 and RFT EL12N*
 I would describe this as bordering on brightness, analytical, clear, crisp, with a sense of attack and tone that is amazingly articulate. It's not overly bright but has a crystal clear quality to the tone.
  
*2. Valvo C3g/s and Telefunken EL12*
 This has some semblance to the above but is less on presence and scale of the overall tone. EL11 has just that little more lushness and a bigger soundstage.
  
*3. Telefunken EL11 and Telefunken EL12*
 This has more body compared to EL12N combo but it maintains a level of clarity and punch almost rivalling that of the 'Ns'. The tonal balance is great on my T1 g1. This is more like an orchestra in full flight rather than the N's smaller ensemble. Bass commands respect. It will slam you.
  
 My choice at this point in time is 3 followed closely by 1 with 2 quite far behind. My EL12s are still developing and needs more hours. Impressions will change further down the track.
  
 Picture of the c3g and EL12. You've already seen the other 2.


----------



## UntilThen

Temperature is hovering at 40 degrees Celsius today and I'm listening to 2 Steps from Hell. @connieflyer  can I borrow some snow for you? My aircon is working overtime.


----------



## connieflyer

No snow now, weather is starting to warm up should be 34 35 degrees Fahrenheit this week. Sun came out for a half hour yesterday scared the crap out of me thought the world was coming to an end. Nice review on the El 11 12. Must be nice to have a amp the cardboard on mine is collapsing


----------



## UntilThen

Something happened this morning that scared the crap out of me. When I woke up, Elise just won't power on. No blue led light when I switch it on. I thought I had blown the fuse. So I change the fuse, of which I have a dozen spares. Still can't power on. In desperation I pinch the DV power cord and hey presto it's on. My power cord had died on me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 and on I went to eBay to buy a more creditable power cord. ...


----------



## connieflyer

First time I've heard of that. Very strange.


----------



## UntilThen

There will be a first with everything. Why are you up at this hour?


----------



## connieflyer

It is only 10 40 on Friday night or Saturday night I don't remember which day I probably won't go to bed until about midnight and if I'm lucky I'll get for 5 hours sleep if I'm not lucky I'll be up by 3 and reading having coffee I don't have a headphone if I can't turn on the stereo with that time of the morning probably just get on the net just do stuff


----------



## UntilThen

Well no respected man goes to bed at 10:40pm so I'll play you a John Lennon song. I reckon he can sing and compose too.


----------



## pctazhp

Whenever I log on to HeadFi the anticipation I feel thinking about all the new and interesting information I will learn is almost too much to take. Tonight is certainly no exception. I learned all about CF's sleep patterns and got an up to the minute weather report from Sydney.
  
 Well, I also know from UT that Telefunken EL11 and Telefunken EL12 sound good, but I already knew that.
  
 Not to be outdone, I can report that the milk bottle in my refrigerator is now about half empty. I don't usually drink milk at night, but tonight may be an exception. So I expect that by midnight the bottle will probably be about 3/8ths full.
  
 BTW, CF. It can't be 10:40 there. It's only 9:05 here and you are only an hour ahead of me. So, what gives???


----------



## UntilThen

And you're up too Mr Arizona. It's only 9 pm there? I thought it's way past 1am where even the owls sleeps.
  
 Btw no 'He-man' drinks milk. We drink more potent stuff like 'Solo'.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> And you're up too Mr Arizona. It's only 9 pm there? I thought it's way past 1am where even the owls sleeps.
> 
> Btw no 'He-man' drinks milk. We drink more potent stuff like 'Solo'.


 

 Solo??? Never heard of that. It sounds dangerous.
  
 Edit: It is now 9:12
  
 Further edit:  According to Verizon it's 9:15


----------



## UntilThen

Please.... you must know Hansolo drink.


----------



## pctazhp

Oh my. This is all going straight over my head. Hans Solo is some guy from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Can we stick to debating something like which is better - digital or analog multimeters???


----------



## pctazhp

Well, CF must be busy researching Solo on Wikipedia and I don't deal well with bad news - such as someone suffering from a heat stroke. So I'm going to sleep now and dream about multimeters.
  
 I wish you happy listening ))))


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Pray for me... I just got one Valvo EL11 to pair with the one I already have, then combined shipping for a pair of regular TF EL12 coke bottles (here and here), and on top of that I negotiated a sprinkling of this for a discount.
> 
> Of course I'll have to dump some of my other tubes, most probably the RFT EL11 and the TF 12spez to cut my expenses over this escapade... Still, there's nothing like caving in to late night indulgences such as these, right?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Somehow missed this post of yours. I'll reserve prayers for more important matters but I'll give you some good down under advice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I can vouch for that seller wege-high-fidelity. Got my 2 Telefunken EL12 from him. One was in MINT NOS condition with the lettering still 100% on the glass. The other is near NOS but have a loose base which I promptly fix with my wife's clear nail polish. So remember this. If you need to fix any loose base, don't use glue. Borrow your wife's or gf's clear nail polish. Got this tip from @gibosi .
  
 Anyhoo, this Telefunken EL11 and EL12 just got better and better. All you need is one pair of each in good working condition and you are set.
  
 ps:- I think some of the Siemens  EL12 and Valvo are Telefunken's rebrand or identical - just from the shape and the top getters constructions.


----------



## angpsi

Good morning to all,

Here's MrsX answer in regard to the spez:

"Hi,don't insert EL11 OR EL12spez adapter to 6AS7 socket,Elise amp 6SN7 tube only using half triode.

"Elise amp 6SN7 tube only using half one triode tube,so 6SN7 adapter must pin1+pin4 connect to EL11 or EL3N G1;pin2+pin5 connect EL11 or EL3N anode and G2,pin3+pin6 connect to EL11 or EL3N cathode.because i don't know using 6SN7 tube which side triode.

"6SA7 tube pinout same 6SN7 tube.BUT,6AS7 two triode tubes all used.that's why i was design Dual EL3N EL11 EL12spez adapter for 6SN7 or 6AS7.
Thanks!"

So, what do you make of it?


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  I'll let @hypnos1  answer this. It's French to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I do know we're using EL12 and EL12N with those adapters as powers with very good results.


----------



## UntilThen

In other news, I just bought a La Figaro 339 from an owner who has given up head-fi. 
  
 It's going to be a busy month of Feb.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> *Impressions on Day 1 of EL tubes.*
> 
> I've been evaluating these 3 combinations namely:-
> 
> ...


 
  
 Spot on UT. That's how I hear them. The choice these EL11/12 tubes provides is perfect for lovers of Classical. 
  
 I use your combo 1 for smaller scale chamber music and solo instrumental, and combo 3 for orchestral and choral.
  
 Combo 2, with both types of EL12's, depending on the tone of the recording, works beautifully for piano-something about the bass and energy of the c3g's just sounds so correct  for piano.
  
 Uncanny that we hear the same but the T1 is a common factor.
  
 NOW, how about giving the dual adapters a twirl in the power slots with your fine selection of EL12's?


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> @angpsi
> I'll let @hypnos1
> answer this. It's French to me.
> 
> I do know we're using EL12 and EL12N with those adapters as powers with very good results.




Yea, and I let her know too. I also mentioned the idea about shielding and/or grounding the anode wire. Let's see what she comes up with.


----------



## HOWIE13

Thanks guys for your answers to my question about why Elise sounds so good with tubes well outside the normal parameters.
  
 I guess it's just another mystery--  'more things in heaven and earth', we know the rest.......... 
  
 Cheers to all for the weekend


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Uncanny that we hear the same but the T1 is a common factor.
> 
> NOW how about giving the dual adapters a twirl in the power slots with your fine selection of EL12's?


 
  
 Hey it's no surprise. We're twins.
  
 As for dual adapters, I wouldn't have time to breathe let alone experiment with them. Especially with the LF 339 and Euforia arriving soon.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Somehow missed this post of yours. I'll reserve prayers for more important matters but I'll give you some good down under advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...thought you'd really warm to the (ST) EL12s with further burn-in lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...they'll get _even_ better yet!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Good ploy with the clear nail varnish. I myself have always wondered about the long-term life of same, which is why I like to use *gel *superglue...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





angpsi said:


> Good morning to all,
> 
> Here's MrsX answer in regard to the spez:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi angpsi.
  
 The adapter wired as you confirmed will indeed work fine...my routing is basically the same, even though only one 6SN7/6AS7G anode and cathode pins are connected, because *both* triodes are in fact linked in parallel in the amp's sockets...I don't think MrsX realises this, due to confusion about series or parallel configuration way back in the C3g days. And mine worked perfectly on initial test...now I'd better get down to adapting them _properly_....(ie. with _silver_ wire!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...
  
 Re. your Valvo EL11s in place of the RFTs, if I were you I'd check if the Valvos have the _oval_ anode plates or the _round_ ones of the RFT/Telefunken design, and certainly listen to them first before parting with the RFTs if they are indeed ovals...my black glass oval Valvos sound more like the EL3N, which might be just a tad too warm with the TFK EL12s. My oval _*mesh*_-plate black glass Valvos are different again...a synthesis of the best of the C3g, EL3N and EL11(TFK round plate), without any of the..."great, _buts"_ lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...and _oh-so-smooth!_


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> In other news, I just bought a La Figaro 339 from an owner who has given up head-fi.
> 
> It's going to be a busy month of Feb.


 
  
 Wow UT...that is gonna be really interesting to compare with both Elise and Euforia 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...busy Feb, Mar, Apr, May I'd say...at least lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Better get sweetening your better half BIG TIME...right _now!!!_





). CHEERS!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Wow UT...that is gonna be really interesting to compare with both Elise and Euforia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 At AUD$500 I thought it's a good deal. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Plus I already have all the power tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> At AUD$500 I thought it's a good deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Looks real cool UT...and must be a steal for that money lol! Boy, are you in for one Hell of a time soon!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...ENJOY!!!...


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Hey it's no surprise. We're twins.
> 
> As for dual adapters, I wouldn't have time to breathe let alone experiment with them. Especially with the LF 339 and Euforia arriving soon.


 





 Can understand that.
  
 LF 339 looks nice and I gather very euphonic and musical in presentation.
 It seems to have separate vol controls for each channel-I like that idea.


----------



## vl4dimir

Guys, it has probably already been discussed on this thread but what is the difference between the RSD EL12N and Telefunken EL12 ?


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Looks real cool UT...and must be a steal for that money lol! Boy, are you in for one Hell of a time soon!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have no time now to mow my lawn. Pct can you mow my lawn? ))


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Guys, it has probably already been discussed on this thread but what is the difference between the RSD EL12N and Telefunken EL12 ?


 
  
 Dimir !!! I just posted a write up on post #6250 specially for you. I hope it's clear as mud.


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> There will be a first with everything. Why are you up at this hour?


 

 I'm sorry I didn't follow  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was curious which one do you recommend to go with EL3N ? or which other tubes to pair with EL3N without breaking the bank (around +-100€ the pair)
 Plan to get HD800 modded in the near future & listen to all kind of music but mostly indie, rock, pop, electro
  
 p.S: I already have the EL12N but I have terrible microphonics so the seller proposed to reimburse me or exchange with telefunken el12 he has in stock


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> I'm sorry I didn't follow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Huh? EL3N is yesterday's news. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ok let's not confuse you more. HD800 is best paired with some warm and lush tubes. So EL3N with EL12N or EL12 will do nicely. 
  
 How bad is the EL12N microphonics? As long as it's not humming it's ok. I get feedback when I type while using EL11 and EL12. These tubes are just more microphonic but they will settle down.
  
 If you don't want to use EL12 or EL12N, EL3N with Chatham 6AS7G is a good combination too for the HD800. Some of the folks here will be willing to sell you a pair of Chatham 6AS7G I'm sure.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> At AUD$500 I thought it's a good deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am at a loss for words. Breathtaking. Of biblical proportions. A turning point in history. Beyond human understanding.
  
 Huh?????
  
 PS. What's a lawn????


----------



## connieflyer

p.s. lawn? How come he gets invite to caare for lawn?  They don't have grass in AZ! Mi. on the other hand, is mostly green, we are surrounded by the great lakes, most fresh water on earth, so we can water!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I am at a loss for words. Breathtaking. Of biblical proportions. A turning point in history. Beyond human understanding.
> 
> Huh?????
> 
> PS. What's a lawn????


 
  
 It even comes with a large Faraday cage and it's not made by Ikea.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> p.s. lawn? How come he gets invite to caare for lawn?  They don't have grass in AZ! Mi. on the other hand, is mostly green, we are surrounded by the great lakes, most fresh water on earth, so we can water!


 
  
 Of course CF you're invited too. Your job is to inspect the lawn after Pct mows it.


----------



## pctazhp

I am not qualified by training, experience or motivation to mow lawns. CF doesn't even know what time it is. How does he know where he lives and what he is surrounded by???
  
 I have an empty bottle of milk that I now keep in a Faraday cage. It is available for $495 Aus. Which at the current rate of return is $1.00 USD.


----------



## connieflyer

Works for me, maybe pick him up on the way over.  Oh that's right, his better halves will be back, so I guess I will have to do both!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Works for me, maybe pick him up on the way over.  Oh that's right, his better halves will be back, so I guess I will have to do both!


 

 I can go. They have made a special request for you to pick me up.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Works for me, maybe pick him up on the way over.  Oh that's right, his better halves will be back, so I guess I will have to do both!


 

 You can come and visit me anytime. Stay at my place too. Not too soon though. Can't take any leave so soon.


----------



## connieflyer

He could play with the Darkvoice while you are at work.  Or maybe chase the 'roos!


----------



## pctazhp

CF:  I fear UT is suffering from ADS (Amp Deprivation Syndrome). Is there any chance you would consider sending him your new amp? I doubt he would even notice its rather low volume output.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> CF:  I fear UT is suffering from ADS (Amp Deprivation Syndrome). Is there any chance you would consider sending him your new amp? I doubt he would even notice its rather low volume output.


 

 I only accept Liquid Glass and Blue Hawaii.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I only accept Liquid Glass and *Blue Hawaii.*


 
 Why didn't you say that sooner?


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 My approach when a new wonder tube appears on the scene is to scout the eBay bargain stores and try to buy whatever is reasonably priced. In other words, not buying a bunch of GEC 6AS7 lol, but the EL13 tubes can be found for inexpensive prices.
  
 All my tubes (almost?) are used but test good with verified values. Since the tubes last 10,000 hours I am not worried that I will wear them out. Part of the charm of old tubes for me is to try to identify them when the markings are worn off, and when they are re-branded and cross branded. (Thanks for your help Oskari)
  
 I have Telefunken, Valvo, Loewe-Opta, Philips and RFT tubes, and even a Tungsram on the way. I have one Telefunken EL11 tall straight glass tube. Based on my observations to date (it may change) I came to this conclusion:
  
 About EL11 tubes: _The straight bottle TFK sounds close but not quite like the coke bottle. I prefer the coke bottles better, and the TFK tubes over all other varieties. _*Sounds familiar?*
  
 About EL12: These are harder to come by, and at this point I only know that the RFT EL12N are excellent. I have a couple of Valvo 12EL but I have not formed an opinion about them yet - could be that the RFT EL12N sound better in my system. Need more time to evaluate.
  
 The one TFK i got was a dud but the seller refunded me the money.
  
 Happy tube rolling!


----------



## Rossliew

Can anyone confirm if the voltage requirements is easily changeable from 110v to 230v?


----------



## tonykaz

Water yer lawn? 
  
 You and I pay 1.4 cents per gallon for tap water, better be careful, you can easily splurge 300 Gal. watering grass. hmm, is that $4.20 per day on peak dry-spell periods? 
  
 Tony still in Michigan   Brrrrrrr


----------



## aqsw

Has anybody tried the Rft EL12Ns as powers with EL3N drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Has anybody tried the Rft EL12Ns as powers with EL3N drivers.


 
 Yes


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Has anybody tried the Rft EL12Ns as powers with EL3N drivers.


 
  
 I suppose you needed more than a one word answer.
  
 Yes I've tried them and yes they sound good. Open, airy, lush, warm with a bit treble rounded off compared to EL11 and EL12 combo. Nevertheless great tone, musical, euphonic and wide soundstage. 
  
 EL3N and Rft EL12N is certainly better than EL3N and Svetlana 6H13C, which you are currently using.
  
 Using these Pentodes as strapped-triodes in Elise has certainly been one of the best tones for me. Yes I still do love EL3N very much. I can just sit back and relax with music.
  
 But my favourite now is undisputedly Telefunken EL11 and EL12.


----------



## angpsi

#moved from the Euforia thread#

Hi guys, sorry to mess with your EL13 euphoria (pun intended) but can you give me a quick summary of past experience with 6sn7gtb and whether you have experimented with Meltz? If anyone's curious about why I am asking, it's as per the advice of the Elise's makers (personal communication).


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> #moved from the Euforia thread#
> 
> Hi guys, sorry to mess with your EL13 euphoria (pun intended) but can you give me a quick summary of past experience with 6sn7gtb and whether you have experimented with Meltz? If anyone's curious about why I am asking, it's as per the advice of the Elise's makers (personal communication).


 
  
 By 6sn7gtb, are you refering to the stock drivers Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue? Most of us would have heard that at one point in time and have move on from there. Nothing offensive. A bit on the warm side and a bit rounded off on the treble as well. Not that is a bad thing. For some, it's probably an 'ok' tube. However they are so many choices in 6sn7. The gtb are the cheapest and worth a try. Especially the Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top. I have a pair. Sparkling clear.
  
 I think I have only heard @hypnos1 mentioned about the Meltz. He was issued a pair with his Elise but they hummed so badly on one tube that he ended up returning it. They are pretty expensive and I think there are better choices.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> By 6sn7gtb, are you refering to the stock drivers Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue? Most of us would have heard that at one point in time and have move on from there. Nothing offensive. A bit on the warm side and a bit rounded off on the treble as well. Not that is a bad thing. For some, it's probably an 'ok' tube. However they are so many choices in 6sn7. The gtb are the cheapest and worth a try. Especially the Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top. I have a pair. Sparkling clear.
> 
> I think I have only heard @hypnos1 mentioned about the Meltz. He was issued a pair with his Elise but they hummed so badly on one tube that he ended up returning it. They are pretty expensive and I think there are better choices.




Yea, sorry, I was referring to Sylvanias and RCA as per Lukasz's advice. After some research I did yesterday there are some interesting varieties including green/yellow/red labels or glass prints for the Syls and coin base for the RCA. I also researched the Meltz and indeed people agreed that it's quite a lottery with these. The round hole plates are quite expensive also.


----------



## UntilThen

These are some of the few 6sn7s that I have. They are quite cheap. The brown base vary in prices on ebay. There are some going for $150 a pair. The sellers must be on crack.
  
 Sylvania  6sn7gtb chrome top - about $40 for a pair near NOS. Sweet and clear sounding.

  
 Sylvania 6sn7wgt brown base. Drier tone, powerful bass and wide soundstage.

  
 Sylvania 6sn7gtb coin base - I have the RCA brand. Again clear sounding. Not held in high regards amongst 6sn7 aficionados but they seem quite ok for me.

  
 You might want to check out the Ken Rad 6sn7gt vt231, Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231, RCA 6sn7gt vt231, National Union 6sn7gt vt231. More expensive but they are pretty good. Refer to the 6sn7 reference guide for a description of their tones.
  
 Then there's the super expensive Tung Sol 6sn7gt black round plates and Sylvania 6sn7w. Be prepared to sell the cat.


----------



## Oskari

rossliew said:


> Can anyone confirm if the voltage requirements is easily changeable from 110v to 230v?




I don't think we can. At least I don't remember having seen reports of such.


----------



## Rossliew

oskari said:


> I don't think we can. At least I don't remember having seen reports of such.




Thanks for the info.


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. I also have the Sylvania 6SN7GTBs and I agree with your description of how they sound. For the price I think they are a good choice for those wanting to experiment with reasonably priced alternatives to the stock drivers.
  
 I also have a pair Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7WGTs. It's been a long time since I listened to them and as you have noted I'm suffering from memory deprivation, but I know they sounded better than the GTBs. As I recall a little fuller and, at least to me, more musically satisfying. But they were $150 and I think not easy to find.
  
 In general, I find it challenging to describe differences between tubes without leaving the impression that the differences may be greater than the particular descriptions might suggest.
  
 Selling a cat is very risky. He will almost certainly find his way back to you and make your life even more miserable than it was pre-sale.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Another good and inexpensive choice is the RCA 6N7GTB with a thin horizontal heater wire on top.


----------



## angpsi

"a _bit_ pricey" @whirlwind? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/182351875013


----------



## whirlwind

angpsi said:


> "a _bit_ pricey" @whirlwind?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/182351875013


 
  
 Ha ha
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-MELZ-METAL-BASE-6N8S-6SN7-1578-HOLE-PLATE-TUBE-VALVE-Rohre-NEW-1954y-/351963551911?hash=item51f2a998a7:g:3psAAOSw5cNYNfaa


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> Another good and inexpensive choice is the RCA 6N7GTB with *a thin horizontal heater wire on top*.


 

 Unfortunately for everyone on this thread, your post reminded me of this:


----------



## angpsi

whirlwind said:


> Ha ha
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-MELZ-METAL-BASE-6N8S-6SN7-1578-HOLE-PLATE-TUBE-VALVE-Rohre-NEW-1954y-/351963551911?hash=item51f2a998a7:g:3psAAOSw5cNYNfaa




Nice price, but you need to shell out the cash for the _blue_ stamps if you want to have the exotic tubes that were designated for nuclear plants!
http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/75#post_6528106


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> These are some of the few 6sn7s that I have. They are quite cheap. The brown base vary in prices on ebay. There are some going for $150 a pair. The sellers must be on crack.
> 
> Sylvania  6sn7gtb chrome top - about $40 for a pair near NOS. Sweet and clear sounding.
> 
> ...




UT I just ordered a pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGT on your recommendation. Admittedly a recommendation from quite a while ago, but I made a note of it...


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> UT I just ordered a pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGT on your recommendation. Admittedly a recommendation from quite a while ago, but I made a note of it...


 
  
 I hope you will like it. Give us your impressions when you get it.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> In general, I find it challenging to describe differences between tubes without leaving the impression that the differences may be greater than the particular descriptions might suggest.


 
  
 Very true indeed. At most you can try and convey the general tonal characteristics of the tube. Using words such as bright or warm will give others some idea. Some tubes sound more full bodied. Others are leaner than cat-walk models. Some emphasise the mids and bass while others are more prominent on the highs.


----------



## UntilThen

rossliew said:


> Thanks for the info.


 
  
 Ross, are you looking for a 230v Elise?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Very true indeed. At most you can try and convey the general tonal characteristics of the tube. Using words such as bright or warm will give others some idea. Some tubes sound more full bodied. Others are leaner than cat-walk models. Some emphasise the mids and bass why others are more prominent on the highs.


 

 I always respect your ability to find the words that give a good idea of what your are hearing. And to the extent I have tried tubes you have described my experience is almost always the same as you have described, even though we use different DACs and headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I always respect your ability to find the words that give a good idea of what your are hearing. And to the extent I have tried tubes you have described my experience is almost always the same as you have described, even though we use different DACs and headphones.


 
  
 As long as you're able to visualise cat-walk models, you know you have got a special tube.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> After some research I did yesterday there are some interesting varieties including green/yellow/red labels or glass prints for the Syls




They did have their "season of color".  It was about (not accepting) warranty claims. See: http://pax-comm.com/pa01039.htm


----------



## Rossliew

untilthen said:


> Ross, are you looking for a 230v Elise? :wink_face:




Hahaha saw a unit (110v) for sale here in the forums and it was the collection of tubes that was tempting...let's take this offline


----------



## mordy

In case someone is interested, there is an auction ending soon for an EL12  TFK NOS in box:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=el12&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1312.R2.TR4.TRC1.A0.H0.Xel12+.TRS2&_nkw=EL12+tube&_sacat=0
  
 Scroll down to about half way on the page to find it. Taut I'll get it for $6 but the price is going too high for me - currently $51 with three hours to go.


----------



## mordy

Is this Tekade tube a Valvo?
  





  




 The CODE # :   *GD MYN*


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Is this Tekade tube a Valvo?
> 
> The CODE # :   *GD MYN*




It's Loewe-Opta, Apr 54.


----------



## connieflyer

Oskari is there anything you don't know, I am lucky if I can tell you what day it is!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Oskari is there anything you don't know, I am lucky if I can tell you what day it is!


 

 Today is Wednesday.


----------



## Oskari

CF, I wouldn't have the faintest idea, but I recognize a Philips code when I see one.



 http://tubedata.milbert.com/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf


----------



## UntilThen

That Ta Ka De EL12 looks lips smacking good.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, I'm working on something big to post soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

Do we need to wear crush helmets?


----------



## Oskari

UT, it surely does look nice.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> That Ta Ka De EL12 looks lips smacking good.


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/960#post_13257384


----------



## DecentLevi

_Crash_ helmets? not at all, these are truly safe combos I'm working on


----------



## DecentLevi

OK folks, time to share the new treat I've been blessed with on my Elise. Incoming yesterday was the twin partner of my Valvo EL12 tube. Unlike the pair I got from some random seller that were largely dead on arrival, I got these from Langrex Tubes in the UK (which has just a few left), and these are both in top flight condition, matched so well with even the same date code that I had to mark one to tell them apart.
 
Below is a somewhat extended tube rolling 'expedition' since yesterday, but I highly recommend reading through. I've color-coded my top three favorite pairings _(now of all time)_ in purple text, and have excluded photos of pairings that didn't make the cut.
 
First I'll compare these Valvo EL12 to the GEC 6AS7G
 
The EL12's are more 'fun' sounding: much more detailed, well textured with better dynamics, much better bass definition. More detailed on the top and bottom without being U-shaped, bigger soundstage and slightly more organic. GEC's by contrast are more laid back and not as 'deep into the scene' of the recording. Both are very different power tubes. *My preference goes to EL12* but I could see myself still liking the GEC for more casual listening sessions... Later going back to my GEC's _(which are burned in)_, I get a sound that is overall somewhat 'limp' and dull compared to the Valvo EL12, and bass texture seems void by contrast.
*An absolute enigma of sonic purity and performance.*
 
Valvo EL12 + Reflektor 6N23P (1975 Silver Shield Single Wire 'holy grail' version)

 Immaculate vividness, speed, fluidity, clarity, very immersive soundstage, spot on imaging, wide FR range, and superbly pure bass definition. Instantly transports you deep into the scene hearing every minute detail, and is moderately bright.
 
Valvo EL12 + 6SN7 WGT

Upon hearing these as drivers after the 6N23P I thought _"what the &$%# is wrong here"?_ Everything about 10 rows back, and with dynamics so much slower it seems as if the recording was slowed down. Bass that was once well defined and authoritative is now muddy. Imaging and clarity is reduced by 100%. Yup this is the same exact tube that was recently recommended on this thread. This is not necessarily a 'bad' sound and still has it's place for bright / dynamic recordings, and pairs better with other powers; but generally I find this one a bit too slow, muddy, and not well defined in details or imaging; also somewhat extra lush. 
 
Valvo EL12 + Ken Rad VT-231 (6SN7 GT) 

Much better bass quality and details than above 6SN7. Nearly as good as the 6N23P drivers, but not as 'deep into the scene' in terms of imaging / soundstatge, nor as fast or detailed.
 
Valvo EL12 + Sylvania 6SN7 GT 'Bad Boys' 
Sounds like a more matured version of above with better texture but maybe slightly too 'fun' sounding or accented on the top and bottom frequencies
 
Valvo EL12 + EL3N
Too lush
 
Valvo EL12 + RCA 6SN7 GT (newest grey / smoked glass style) 

Immaculate synergy! Refinement in the spade of spades! F-A-N-T-A-S-T-I-C-! Dynamics that please on every song, as if you're in the studio! Bass definition that seems solid enough to support your weight, mids that strike a perfect balance between lush and proper without being overdone. Treble that is spot on and airy, but not too bright. Soundstage and imaging that is extremely refined and expansive. If there's a floor beneath you this combo will floor you!
 
I've compared the above combo to several other similar looking smoked grey 6SN7's but they were all either too bright or somehow lacking to the _flooring _synergy of the above. Here is a photo for your reference of the type of 6SN7's that have amazing synergy with the ST-shaped EL12's:

  
 Going back to the Valvo EL12 + 6N23P combo I'm instantly struck with a much more clinical / fast sound that is 'deeper into the scene' of the recording, somewhat brighter and bass that, while better textured is reduced in quantity by a nuance. Both are top picks for different reasons. While I can't say whether the Valvo EL12 is the best of the ST-shaped EL12's it certainly has my vote, and easily surpasses all power tubes I've ever tried; at least 20 including those that are universally heralded as the best which also includes 421A.
 
I've also tried EL12 as powers with other power tubes. This worked since it was within the AH threshold, but all pairings with power+power sounded thin / bright, with a very low volume gain...

 
Switch around the EL12's as drivers completely fixed that problem... that's right, as drivers! Seeing how these have a current draw of 1.2ah which is in between both the 6AS7 and 6SN7 class, and how these will always be below the threshold limit no matter which Elise-compatible tubes you pair them with, I thought I'd give them a whirl in the front seat
 
GEC 6AS7G + Valvo EL12

Insanely realistic and well defined sound with the best vocals / mids I've ever heard, bar none. Yet at the same time it leaves me feeling a void of texture / definition of the upper & lower registers that the best pairing of Valvo EL12's had as powers.
 
NOTE - THE ABOVE COMBOS EXCEED THE RECOMMENDED CURRENT DRAW OF 6.8ah BY BY 0.6ah​  
Valvo EL12 + RFT EL12N

The most overall organic / lifelike sound and best soundstage I've heard all day and with very hard hitting dynamics, yet quite a crisp and bright pairing - borderlining on clinical so better for dark recordings or dark headphones. I prefer this to any EL11 + EL12 pairings to date. Phenomenal nevertheless!
 
Continuing the test of Valvo EL12's as drivers, I tried my other top power pairings Tung Sol 5998, RCA / GEC / Mullard / Bendix 6080's - *only to come to the conclusion that Valvo EL12's are best not suited as drivers*, because all pairings sounded too bright and thin with these in the drivers seat - even including the GEC 6AS7G's to a lesser extent.
 
 
With the exception of:
Quad EL3N + Valvo EL12

Vivid, lush, intimate, organic, expansive, crisp, full bodied, bass that’s meaty / weighty yet controlled. Grandiose is the most apt word - everything that's good about the GEC 6AS7G + EL12 pairing, but with even larger soundstage, even more 'intimamate' / 'whisper in your ear' element, and enough to dethrone all pairings that came before it to make it tied with my favorite all time top 2 combos (the other two being in purple color above). Bigger soundstage and unwavering realism, yet not quite the bass definition as the EL12 + RCA smoked glass, nor the detail as the EL12 + 6N23P - yet still absolutely transfixing and larger than life! ... after listening to this combo a while longer I noticed it's also a bit 'tubey', Lol.
 
As for EL12 + EL11 pairings, I've tried both RFT EL12N + RFT / Telefunken EL11 together, each separetly with other drivers / powers, and Valvo EL12 + Telefunken EL11 and *found that all pairings with either the RFT EL12 and RFT / Telefunken EL11 fair on the bright side of the spectrum*, with both my HD-600 and HD-650's alike. While the EL12 (both "N" and ST-shaped alike) + EL11 pairings perhaps do provide the best soundstage and detail, I would recommend them only for inherently dark headphones that are darker than most of the Beyerdynamic line including T1, also that are darker the whole Sennheiser line, such as perhaps Audeze LCD-2 or the Hifiman line... That is, in order to counter this high amount of upper emphasis and recessed bass. Both RFT/Telefunken EL11 and RFT EL12N are brighter than neutral, with the exception of the ST-shaped EL12's and perhaps wider ST-shaped EL11's.
 
In summary I can without any doubt proclaim that the Valvo EL12 (as drivers or powers), Reflektor 6N23P as drivers ('holy grail' version), and RCA 6SN7 (newer smoked glass version) as drivers are absolutely impeccable performers on the Elise.
 
_Disclaimer - per H1's directive I do not officially endorse the ST-shaped EL12's. _But for me it seems to have covered a staggering amount of sonic landscape, with not the slightest sign of anything untoward.


----------



## DecentLevi

Edit on the above: it's the Valvo EL12 / 375 that I'm using, and they have oval plates


----------



## angpsi

decentlevi said:


> Edit on the above: it's the Valvo EL12 / 375 that I'm using, and they have oval plates


 

 Hi DL, thanks for the thorough and meticulously documented report on the Valvo EL12; very good work indeed!
  
 Two questions:

Have you an opinion between your (oval plate) Valvos and the much admired here (round plate) Telefunken EL12 ST? (that is, if you actually own the latter)
What kind of music did you use for your critical listening sessions?
  
 Personally, I do perceive the EL12n (Siemens, in my case) just a tad on the bright side compared with the more fleshed out sound of my TFK EL12spez/fingers–on–anode–wire, combined with my RFT EL11. But in no case I'd say the EL11/12 combo is at all bright on the HD600s, which means they are, given the HD600 signature sound, not a bright combo by any account. on the contrary, I'd nominate them as substantially more dynamic than, say, my stock combo of TS/Psvane, which I perceive as blooming, unforced, analytical, and precise. Thus, I can certainly understand why all the good people with the T1 enjoy them so much.


----------



## angpsi

Ok, oddly enough this is a follow–up to my previous post which brought up the subject of 'house' sound signature, which in my case consists of the standard TS re–issues and the Psvane 'upgrade' drivers. As I was writing about my assessment of the EL11/12[n] as "dynamic" but not bright overall, I was also listening to the Bartók Concerto for Orchestra; The Miraculous Mandarin / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra; Riccardo Chailly. This is one sharply biting piece of symphonic music, at the same time when the Chailly/RCO rendering is typically one three–dimensional recording.
  
The EL11/12 rendering was so ear–piercing on my HD600s that I had to stop the music and switch back to the stock configuration. Period. The latter was hardly perfect, in that it lacked a certain three–dimensionality which is a most difficult task on a pair of headphones, especially given the 'flatness' of the music itself (which in some way contradicts the effort put on the recording) as well as the fact that symphonic works seem to be notoriously hard to render on headphones anyway. Still, the result was much more bearable when all the high notes were attacking my HD600s; and, of course, quite enjoyable when the music was much more spread within the harmonic spectrum.
  
Therefore, for one thing, this post is an update/amendment on my prior impression of the EL11/12 combo. Given that so many people here swear by it, I reserve my final assessment until further listening.
  
​On the other hand, this incident made me want to experiment with something closer to the Feliks house signature. So far I believe that the effortless airiness and resolution of details should be attributed to the Psvanes; but what about three–dimensionality? Do you thing that a change of the TS powers might add further benefits to the stock sound?
  
Thanks,
A.


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  I'm pretty sure you have got Psvane 6sn7 as drivers and Svetlana 6H13C as powers when you bought Elise. Your power tubes aren't TS re-issue.
  
 Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue are drivers that are supplied with the standard Elise. The upgrade gets Psvane 6sn7 as drivers. Power tubes remain as Svetlana 6H13C in both versions of Elise.
  
 If you're asking whether there are benefits from changing the Svetlana 6H13C to other power tubes, I would say definitely.
  
 All these IMO are better than those Svetlana 6H13C  any day and any night :-
  
 Chatham 6as7g
 Bendix 6080wb
 Tung Sol 5998
 Tung Sol 7236
 GEC 6as7g
 GEC 6080


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> Switch around the EL12's as drivers completely fixed that problem... that's right, as drivers! Seeing how these have a current draw of 1.2ah which is in between both the 6AS7 and 6SN7 class, and how these will always be below the threshold limit no matter which Elise-compatible tubes you pair them with, …




Says who?




decentlevi said:


> GEC 6AS7G + Valvo EL12




That's 7.4 amps.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> @angpsi  I'm pretty sure you have got Psvane 6sn7 as drivers and Svetlana 6H13C as powers when you bought Elise. Your power tubes aren't TS re-issue.
> 
> Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue are drivers that are supplied with the standard Elise. The upgrade gets Psvane 6sn7 as drivers. Power tubes remain as Svetlana 6H13C in both versions of Elise.
> 
> ...


 

 See how ignorant I am?  Thanks for the input, much appreciated.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> *I've also tried EL12 as powers with other power tubes. This worked since it was within the AH threshold,* but all pairings with power+power sounded thin / bright, with a very low volume gain...
> 
> 
> Switch around the EL12's as drivers completely fixed that problem... that's right, as drivers! Seeing how these have a current draw of 1.2ah which is in between both the 6AS7 and 6SN7 class, and how these will always be below the threshold limit no matter which Elise-compatible tubes you pair them with, I thought I'd give them a whirl in the front seat
> ...


 
  
 DL, as Oskari has pointed out, your calculation is way out. These are not within the acceptable threshold.
  
 Take the first example. You have RCA 6080 as drivers and EL12 as power tubes. Let me do some basic maths for you.
  
 2 x RCA 6080 = 5A
 2 x EL12 = 2.4A
 Total = 7.4A
  
 Second photo you have the EL12 as drivers and GEC 6as7g as power tubes.
  
 2 x EL12 = 2.4A
 2 x GEC 6AS7G = 5A
 Total = 7.4A
  
 For this reason, you should not use the EL12 as drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Says who?


 
  
 Says @DecentLevi


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> symphonic works seem to be notoriously hard to render on headphones anyway.


 
  
 I find this too and that's why headphones with capacious sound-stages give the 'big sound' the best chance to be airy and to spread the higher frequency instruments, mostly concentrated in the left channel in a conventional orchestra setting, to the benefit of imaging and realism of tone, timbre etc
  
 The T1 or HD800/800S have big sound-stages, much greater than the HD600, which I only use now for some smaller scale chamber works, where it can sound very good, but it's just not able, for me, to deal with the complexities of orchestral textures as delivered to them by an amp of the quality of Elise.
  
 Incidently I love that music and it's wonderful heard live. I saw the ballet performed some years ago-very dramatic, just like the music.
  
 I have older, analogue recordings-the 'classic' Reiner  from the '50s and Bernstein's New York Phil version from the '60's. Both still very alive and fresh-and not over tampered with by sound engineers trying to be clever.
  
 I suspect in those days conductors actually checked the quality of the final product before it went on sale- I can't believe that happens much nowadays.


----------



## connieflyer

You are right about the Senn 800, the sound stage is wonderfully wide, and very encompassing. Last listening on my Elise, before I sold it to Jozurr was an exceptional recording of Holst's The Planets, Jupiter in particular. The dynamic orchestration was as close to "as being there" as I have experienced.  Hoping the Euphoria will be even better.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I find this too and that's why headphones with capacious sound-stages give the 'big sound' the best chance to be airy and to spread the higher frequency instruments, mostly concentrated in the left channel in a conventional orchestra setting, to the benefit of imaging and realism of tone, timbre etc
> 
> The T1 or HD800/800S have big sound-stages, much greater than the HD600, which I only use now for some smaller scale chamber works, where it can sound very good, but it's just not able, for me, to deal with the complexities of orchestral textures as delivered to them by an amp of the quality of Elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Agree about the recordings. Every so often I read a post like this and kick myself for selling my vinyl collection. Don't ever sell those )))
  
 Maybe I'm not as demanding as I should be, but I find my HD800S with Elise scale very well from small chamber recordings to large classical orchestras. Of course, a lot depends on the recording. And even with a big buck, high end speaker system, it's pretty difficult to realistic reproduce symphony orchestras in their full splendor.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> You are right about the Senn 800, the sound stage is wonderfully wide, and very encompassing. Last listening on my Elise, before I sold it to Jozurr was an exceptional recording of *Holst's The Planets, Jupiter *in particular. The dynamic orchestration was as close to "as being there" as I have experienced.  Hoping the Euphoria will be even better.


 
 You have great taste in music, Mr. CF )))


----------



## connieflyer

I was taught by the "Phantom of the Opera" before he was caught and sent to jail. Myself I escaped in one of the underground canal's that just happened to be there.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Agree about the recordings. Every so often I read a post like this and kick myself for selling my vinyl collection. Don't ever sell those )))


 
  
 I don't kick myself because I have some of @connieflyer  's treasured LPs. They are priceless now.


----------



## HOWIE13

It's true that nothing should beat a live performance-but it's so expensive to buy the ideal best seat in the house, which, of course we always have at home, and to listen without intrusive talking, coughing, sniffing, air con hum etc etc I find more than compensates.


----------



## connieflyer

Wait, they are priceless now?  I am so sorry, I thought they would have retained some of their value!


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> Incidently I love that music and it's wonderful heard live. I saw the ballet performed some years ago-very dramatic, just like the music.
> 
> I have older, analogue recordings-the 'classic' Reiner  from the '50s and Bernstein's New York Phil version from the '60's. Both still very alive and fresh-and not over tampered with by sound engineers trying to be clever.
> 
> I suspect in those days conductors actually checked the quality of the final product before it went on sale- I can't believe that happens much nowadays.


 
  
 I'm not so sure about the latter, but sound engineering in contemporary recordings is indeed a very tricky business. The RCO/Decca recordings are an interesting species, for which I'm not entirely certain whether they are successful examples or flashy antics. They do have some interesting covers though, in terms of graphic design!
  
 About this particular recording, I believe the following is spot on:


> _Iván Fischer’s Budapest performance has a sharper (and harder) bite‚ but Chailly’s ear for texture‚ certainly in the score’s quieter and more sinister sections‚ reawakens dormant associations with the Second Viennese School. The generous Concertgebouw acoustic has a flattering ambience which allows the woodwinds to breathe but tends to cloud the climax of the opening allegro. I wouldn’t personally prefer this version to Fischer’s‚ but readers who hear Bartók as an ethnically tinted outgrowth of Debussy may feel differently._
> 
> http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/bartók-concerto-for-orchestra-the-miraculous-mandarin


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I was taught by the "Phantom of the Opera" before he was caught and sent to jail. Myself I escaped in one of the underground canal's that just happened to be there.


 
  
 I saw Phantom of the Opera live at Capitol Theatre and nothing has ever sounded so real .... since. When Christine sings, the windows shattered and the chandelier came crashing down to the ground.


----------



## connieflyer

My wife and I went up to Toronto to see it years ago, and it was spectacular. We were about six rows back ,center, and when the torches flared, you could feel the heat.  The chandelier came from above and behind, swinging toward the stage,  masterful performance. One of the best shows we had seen. Friend of mine just went to see it, and it is still a great body of work


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> I'm not so sure about the latter, but sound engineering in contemporary recordings is indeed a very tricky business. The RCO/Decca recordings are an interesting species, for which I'm not entirely certain whether they are successful examples or flashy antics. They do have some interesting covers though, in terms of graphic design!
> 
> About this particular recording, I believe the following is spot on:


 
 I was lucky enough when on holiday in Amsterdam a few years ago to attend one of the Concertgebouw's free lunchtime concerts.
 What a magnificent hall, but ever so reverberant. I can imagine it would be very difficult for a sound engineer to be able to achieve an excellent recording of music with bite and edge.
  
 Talking about Mahler's 9th yesterday, Haitink's Mahler symphonies were marvelous for the lushness of the strings and fullness of the brass but I find the woodwind suffered from the warm acoustic.


----------



## UntilThen

I should be sleeping. Why am I reliving the Phantom?


----------



## pctazhp

I saw Phantom many years ago at the Grady Gammage auditorium at Arizona State University. The auditorium was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. Saw a lot of great performances there, But


----------



## angpsi

For such refined tastes and gear I can't help but recommending you Theodore Currentzis' recordings (Tidal's got at least four), including this one:


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Talking about Mahler's 9th yesterday, Haitink's Mahler symphonies were marvelous for the lushness of the strings and fullness of the brass but I find the woodwind suffered from the warm acoustic.


 
  
 I fell asleep with Mahler 9th symphony last night. Perhaps I should try it again.


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> For such refined tastes and gear I can't help but recommending you Theodore Currentzis' recordings (Tidal's got at least four), including this one:




 http://dongiovanni.teodor-currentzis.com
 The Mozart series are particularly interesting in terms of recording too! Just as if you listen from inside the body of the orchestra.


----------



## connieflyer

I used to look like that before I had surgery, now my face is perfect, the right side looks just like the left side, and they did it cheap.
 We saw the performance at Roy Thomson_Hall and it was amazing. They had redone the aa coustics. you entered from the outside into the glass enclosed building, then went through an airlock that separtated the inner performance hall, from the exterior of the building. They told us they could put a 747 jet on the roof at full throttle and not hear it inside.  The people on stage could be heard speaking in normal voices anywhere in the hall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Thomson_Hall


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I fell asleep with Mahler 9th symphony last night. Perhaps I should try it again.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I fell asleep with Mahler 9th symphony last night. Perhaps I should try it again.


 
  
  It's good to fall asleep as the music is supposed to take you to another place anyway. It obviously worked for you.
  
  Mahler wrote this symphony anticipating his own death, which he knew was imminent.
  
 PS.  if you were asleep during the whole of the final movement you should listen to it separately. It's a great test of a system for the euphony of string reproduction


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I saw Phantom of the Opera live at Capitol Theatre and nothing has ever sounded so real .... since. When Christine sings, the windows shattered and the chandelier came crashing down to the ground.


 
 That chandelier was scary. We saw it in London and it was swinging around all through the performance in the air con air current, right in front of us. Actually, I was very relived once it fell down.
  
 Most dramatic scene for me was when the helicopter lands on the stage in Miss Saigon. We were in the front of the stalls-awesome!


----------



## angpsi

@HOWIE13, @hypnos1
  
 Ok, here's the latest from MrsX—I guess, to make things more complicated:


> _EL12 spez ONLY for driver tube. Dual EL12spez can be insert to 6AS7 power tube.
> my all adapter design special PCB that for EMI, soft wire cross each other easy have noise. shield or not wire no improve, (i was sold over 1000pcs 6F8G adapters, lead wire with shield. because shield wire not connect to GND or chassis)_


 
  
 ???
 ...


----------



## pctazhp

This morning I'm listening to The Carpenters. No matter what I listen to with EL11/12, it is wonderful. The bass is tight and well defined as has already been discussed a lot. Bass with the HD800S is a little tricky, but when it is right (such as with EL11/12) it is amazing.
  
 Vocals are detailed but full and with "flesh". Things that tinkle do tinkle with just the right of "sizzle", and I don't mean my bathroom related activities.
  
 Soundstage scales wonderfully from small to large venues.
  
 The listening experience is FF (Fatigue Free).
  
 The experience is intimate when it should be and spectacular when the recording is spectacular.
  
 Everything is just so right. I'm a happy camper, even if my dead rose bushes are frowning at me ))))


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> @HOWIE13, @hypnos1
> 
> Ok, here's the latest from MrsX—I guess, to make things more complicated:
> 
> ...


 
 I'm no expert either angspi but I think I've read that the shield needs to be grounded to prevent audible EMI. I think she is saying these adapters are not grounded as it made no difference but I'm not certain. 
 Hopefully H1 will explain to us.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> I'm no expert either angspi but I think I've read that the shield needs to be grounded to prevent audible EMI. I think she is saying these adapters are not grounded as it made no difference but I'm not certain.
> Hopefully H1 will explain to us.


 

 Have you tried yours yet?


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Have you tried yours yet?


 
 Thought you might ask that.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Well my wife has some of her girl friends for lunch and is blocking the lounge-they will be gone soon and then I'll begin.
  
 I have used her 6F8G adapters and they do work well but very different tube.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> Thought you might ask that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Haaaa! You must be sitting on burning coals right now! Or, at least, the rest of us (i.e. myself) are!...


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Haaaa! You must be sitting on burning coals right now! Or, at least, the rest of us (i.e. myself) are!...


 
 Worst of all I couldn't get to test them before they arrived as I had to do the shopping for the wife while she prepared the table.
  
 At least our chat about Classical Music has been a pleasant diversion in the meantime.


----------



## pctazhp

I've said this before, but no one ever listens to me (can't imagine why). If one is experiencing hum and touching Octopus wire eliminates it, then it almost certainly has to be a ground loop problem.
  
 One solution is to have wife/companion/dog sit next to you for hours holding Octopus wires. Perhaps a more practical solution which might work is what I suggested. Exposed end of wire wrapped around shielded Octopus wire (no electrical contact) with other end of wire grounded. It might not look very pretty, but if I can live with dead rose bushes, I could easily live with enhanced Octopus.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I've said this before, but no one ever listens to me (can't imagine why). If one is experiencing hum and touching Octopus wire eliminates it, then it almost certainly has to be a ground loop problem.
> 
> One solution is to have wife/companion/dog sit next to you for hours holding Octopus wires. Perhaps a more practical solution which might work is what I suggested. Exposed end of wire wrapped around shielded Octopus wire (no electrical contact) with other end of wire grounded. It might not look very pretty, but if I can live with dead rose bushes, I could easily live with enhanced Octopus.


 
  
 Saw that when you posted but it somehow escaped my attention afterwards... my apologies!
  
 For how much length do I need to wrap the exposed wire around the existing anode wire? E.g. as much as my fingers were covering when I pinched it? Or do I have to cover the full length? Sorry I can't recall, but where was it you suggested I attach the other end for grounding?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Saw that when you posted but it somehow escaped my attention afterwards... my apologies!
> 
> For how much length do I need to wrap the exposed wire around the existing anode wire? E.g. as much as my fingers were covering when I pinched it? Or do I have to cover the full length? Sorry I can't recall, but where was it you suggested I attach the other end for grounding?


 

 Ha))) No apology needed. I was just being my usual wise ass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I really don't know if my suggestion will work. I would wrap as much exposed wire around the Octopus wire without going crazy. Use solid wire that will physically wrap better than stranded. Ground other end to outer ring of RCA output on back of Elise without touching inside receptacle - possibly using an alligator clip. Maybe someone else has better idea for grounding. The ground end of both wires can be wrapped or soldered together.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Ha))) No apology needed. I was just being my usual wise ass
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Excellent, thanks! I'll probably try it out tomorrow. Until then, hopefully we'll have @HOWIE13's report to compare as well.
  
 In the meantime, I admit to have converted back to the Feliks house sound... Perhaps I'll start a support group/thread titled "I actually like stock tubes but I'm too afraid to tell more seasoned Head-Fiers!"


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Excellent, thanks! I'll probably try it out tomorrow. Until then, hopefully we'll have @HOWIE13's report to compare as well.
> 
> In the meantime, I admit to have converted back to the Feliks house sound... Perhaps I'll start a support group/thread titled "I actually like stock tubes but I'm too afraid to tell more seasoned Head-Fiers!"


 

 BLASPHEMY OF BLASPHEMIES. You dare question the experience and wisdom of elder statesmen who know everything???  I just don't know what is wrong with the young whipper snappers today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 "House" sound is ok, but I prefer "mansion" or "skyscraper" sound


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> BLASPHEMY OF BLASPHEMIES. You dare question the experience and wisdom of elder statesmen who know everything???  I just don't know what is wrong with the young whipper snappers today.


----------



## HOWIE13

Here's the gist in photographs of this afternoon's initial experiments into EL12spez tubes (one Telefunken, one RWN-Neuhaus):
  
  
  
  
 This works-beautiful sound.
  
  

  
  
 This works-beautiful sound
  
  

  
  
 This works-beautiful sound:
  
  

  
  
 This works (in the bedroom) -beautiful sound of Dr Chesky :
  

  
  
 This works-beautiful sound:
  

  
  
 Even this works-beautiful sound:
  
  
  

  
  
*But when used as power tubes, without the kitchen foil or Faraday Cage there's hum/buzz.*
  
  
 So initial conclusions are these EL12spez  tubes do work in MrsX's adapter. 
  
 They are excellent and very quiet* drivers*. First impression is they may be a bit smoother than conventional EL12 tubes, retaining all the wonderful EL12 characteristics.
  
 As *power* tubes they need EMF shielding as the outside wire appears to be acting like an antenna.
  
 If you use them away from EMF, like in my spare bedroom, they work very well as power tubes too, without buzz/hum, (photo example with stock T-S Russian 6SN7GTB drivers).
  
  
 NB. Remember max total current (drivers+powers) is 6.8A so, for example, if using EL12spez as drivers, for powers you could use 2 or 4 EL11 or 2 or 4 EL3N, or dual EL11/12. NOT 6AS7, 6080, 7236 etc, type tubes.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## pctazhp

@HOWIE13  Your idea of using foil is good. Seems like @angpsi should first try that if he hasn't already. If that doesn't help then he could ground foil. I think better idea than trying to wrap exposed end of ground wire around Octopus wire.Just wrap foil around Octopus wire and then wrap ground wire around foil once or twice.


----------



## mordy

Inspired by DL's suggestion I tried a quad of EL3N tubes with the EL11 TFK tubes as drivers. A lot of hum and the volume is too low - nyet.
  
 Then I tried this:
  
 (image missing)
  
 Two RFT EL12N + the quad EL3N. This sounds quite good, but a little soft in the dynamics compared to the EL13 combo. The volume is not as strong as I would want, and at normal listening levels there is a hum which is masked by the music but still there.
  
 A very pleasant and musical combination, but not for me since I have been spoiled by the EL13.
  
 What should I do with my 8 EL3N tubes lol?


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> @HOWIE13  Your idea of using foil is good. Seems like @angpsi should first try that if he hasn't already. If that doesn't help then he could ground foil. I think better idea than trying to wrap exposed end of ground wire around Octopus wire.Just wrap foil around Octopus wire and then wrap ground wire around foil once or twice.


 
  
 I wouldn't even have a clue what Octopus wire was, LOL.
  
 It would be great if angpsi could resolve the interference problem.
  
 If not, H1 has solved the problem with his own specially shielded adapter.
  
 I adore the EL12/12N's as powers but found them marginally bright as drivers. However, these EL12 spez don't appear to be, so I think they will make excellent drivers, I just need a bit more time to be sure.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Inspired by DL's suggestion I tried a quad of EL3N tubes with the EL11 TFK tubes as drivers. A lot of hum and the volume is too low - nyet.
> 
> Then I tried this:
> 
> ...


 
 Yes the thing about these EL11/12 tubes is they are generally very quiet, amongst the quietest tubes I've experienced.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I wouldn't  even have a clue what octopus wire was, LOL.
> 
> It would be great if angpsi could resolve the interference problem. If not H1 is waiting for another spez tube to confirm whether he has solved the problem too. His first spez tube was hum/buzz free with his specially shielded adapter.
> 
> I adore the EL12's as powers but found them marginally bright as drivers. However, these EL12 spez don't appear to be, so I think they will make excellent  drivers, I just need a bit more time to be sure.


 

 Octopus wire is the term the esteemed @UntilThen coined for that cap wire on Mrs. X's adapters.


----------



## HOWIE13

Really enjoying the scrumptious combination of EL12 spez drivers (Telefunken + RWN (Neuhaus) with EL11/12 power combo for each channel.
  
 The powers are one Telefunken EL11 for each channel with an additional EL12 RFT in the left and EL12 Valvo in the right channel.
  
 This is phenomenal sound quality:
  
  

  
  
@DecentLevi-if you crave for the EL12 sound as a driver, but with a little less treble, the spez might suit.
 I haven't heard the EL12ST and EL12N as drivers for a while as I always use these stupendous tubes nowadays as power tubes - but the spez has given me an opportunity to listen again to another EL12 type tube as a driver, and I very much like what I hear.


----------



## pctazhp

I've been listening to Roberta Flack's "Killing Me Softly" album on Tidal Masters, ala EL11/12. WOWSER BOWSER


----------



## mordy

Trying out a couple of EL12 tubes - these are much more finicky than other tubes I tried. A second one stopped working. It is a Valvo and looks new but had a reading of 22 where 18 is minimum good and 36 is 100%. It is a Valvo EL12/375. (A reading of 10-18 is listed as usable, whatever that means).
  
 Now I am trying a Loewe-Opta 12/375 and another Valvo which I assume is the standard plate voltage of 250V. I have no idea if mixing two tubes with different plate voltage designs matters. The drivers are a pair of 1940's TFK EL11.
  
 It sounds smoother but less dynamic than the RFT EL12N, but I had another problem - a pronounced hum. Remembered that you can make an improvised Faraday cage (without  a trip to Ikea) of aluminum foil. Said and done.
  
 Found a smallish piece and wrapped it around the L-O power tube - no difference. Then I wrapped it around the Valvo and suddenly the hum became less. I fiddled a little with the wrap, and the hum suddenly almost totally disappeared. One section touches the transformer housing. When I moved around the foil the hum increases or decreases. After finding the humpfrey position I let go; hence the rumpled appearance - don't want to mess with success!
  
 The right uncovered Rohre measures 99C, whereas the aluminum foil covered one shows an outside wrap temperature temperature of 53C.
  

  
  
 Do you think it is harmful to run the tube covered with foil?


----------



## UntilThen

A furry of activities. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Good to see everyone enjoying their EL11 and EL12. @mordy  don't worry about the EL3N. They are still good sounding. Even the 6 pack. Just more laid back compared to EL11 / EL12.
  
 Sometimes I wish 6sn7 and 6as7 can get us excited as much. No adapters and so neat. So I spin in Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Tung Sol 5998 again and I get a very sweet, energetic tone. Less presence than the triodes strapped Pentodes but very defined and vivid sound. Very enjoyable.There's no mistaking Elise sound signature in all these change of tubes. Fast, articulate and engaging. She's a very enjoyable amp.
  
 My modded HD650 sounded good with this combination.


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> DL, as Oskari has pointed out, your calculation is way out. These are not within the acceptable threshold.
> 
> Take the first example. You have RCA 6080 as drivers and EL12 as power tubes. Let me do some basic maths for you.
> 
> ...


 
 Oh thanks for pointing that out. In fact I knew that 2x 6080 or 6AS7's were 5ah, but for some reason when mentally adding the 2x 1.2ah, I came up with 6.4ah. Math was one of my worst subjects in school - true story LOL! 
  
 Well that's no problem these setups with EL12 as drivers don't add up anyway, because after extended listening I discovered I prefer other setups anyway. But at least my Elise certainly still seems in top flight after the fact! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I will update my post here to reflect that. Still on the topic of EL12 as drivers however they do still work within parameters with EL12's as powers (4x EL12 = 4.8ah) and for me, I prefer the sound of EL12 + EL12 more than EL11 + EL12.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Oh thanks for pointing that out. In fact I knew that 2x 6080 or 6AS7's were 5ah, but for some reason when mentally adding the 2x 1.2ah, I came up with 6.4ah. Math was one of my worst subjects in school - true story LOL!
> 
> Well that's no problem these setups with EL12 as drivers don't add up anyway, because after extended listening I discovered I prefer other setups anyway. But at least my Elise certainly still seems in top flight after the fact!
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're welcome DL and thanks for your contributions. It's rare to see such activities in any thread but Elise owners are obviously loving what they hear. I respect everyone's impressions even if they differ from mine. It's different gear and ears. What better than to trust your own ears.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Valvo EL12 + RFT EL12N
> 
> The most overall organic / lifelike sound and best soundstage I've heard all day and with very hard hitting dynamics, yet quite a crisp and bright pairing - borderlining on clinical so better for dark recordings or dark headphones. I prefer this to any EL11 + EL12 pairings to date. Phenomenal nevertheless!


 
  
 This is a nice combination. EL12Ns are brighter no doubt and this goes well even with my modded HD650. However with my T1, I prefer EL11 and EL12.
  
 There's no doubt that EL11 and EL12 sounded very similar tonally.
  
 This combination runs at a cool 4.8a


----------



## connieflyer

pctazhp said:


> I've been listening to Roberta Flack's "Killing Me Softly" album on Tidal Masters, ala EL11/12. WOWSER BOWSER


 well I guess that explains how the roses died!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You're welcome DL and thanks for your contributions. It's rare to see such activities in any thread but Elise owners are obviously loving what they hear. I respect everyone's impressions even if they differ from mine. It's different gear and ears. *What better than to trust your own ears.*


 
 I trust your ears more than mine, so I just do exactly as you say. But please don't tell me to stop posting here, unless that also includes CF. He's like a friend I had in grade school who was always stirring up trouble under the radar screen and goading me on so I was always the one who got in trouble with the teacher.
  
 Did you know that Connor is the one who killed my roses?


----------



## connieflyer

Unless you see a yellow Trail it wasn't him, I have at least 10 rose bushes out back and he stayed right away from him, lift your leg one time on those bushes and miss you know what I'm talking about!


----------



## UntilThen

Pct I respect everyone's jokes too. No matter how bad, I'll just laugh it away. 

It must be better than my hamster jokes.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Unless you see a yellow Trail it wasn't him, I have at least 10 rose bushes out back and he stayed right away from him, lift your leg one time on those bushes and miss you know what I'm talking about!


 

 I'm sure glad you don't follow me around when I go for my walks in the park.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Pct I respect everyone's jokes too. *No matter how bad,* I'll just laugh it away.
> 
> It must be better than my hamster jokes.


 

  
 ?????


----------



## DecentLevi

angpsi said:


> Hi DL, thanks for the thorough and meticulously documented report on the Valvo EL12; very good work indeed!
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...


 
 Yes it's my impression that the ST-shaped EL12's retain all that's good about the EL12N's including soundstage, imaging, dynamics, etc. but have more of a linear FR and better bass definition, as opposed to the EL12N's which seem noticeably brighter.
  
 I actually use a variety of music for each A/B comparison including including pop, rock and electronica songs that I thought were well mastered. If you'll notice, all of these type of songs I use to test systems are heavily rhythmic. I would never use something like ambient, classical / symphonic or even most jazz for testing audio equipment because you need something with drums like a bass / kick drum and hard hitting snare drum to hear the dynamics distinctly... not to mention cymbals for the all important highs, and vocals too. Without that you may hear something that sounds excellent for the likes of classical, but once the drums kick in you may notice something is not right.
  


angpsi said:


> ... As I was writing about my assessment of the EL11/12[n] as "dynamic" but not bright overall, I was also listening to the Bartók Concerto for Orchestra; The Miraculous Mandarin / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra; Riccardo Chailly. This is one sharply biting piece of symphonic music, at the same time when the Chailly/RCO rendering is typically one three–dimensional recording.
> 
> The EL11/12 rendering was so ear–piercing on my HD600s that I had to stop the music and switch back to the stock configuration. Period. The latter was hardly perfect, in that it lacked a certain three–dimensionality which is a most difficult task on a pair of headphones, especially given the 'flatness' of the music itself (which in some way contradicts the effort put on the recording) as well as the fact that symphonic works seem to be notoriously hard to render on headphones anyway. Still, the result was much more bearable when all the high notes were attacking my HD600s; and, of course, quite enjoyable when the music was much more spread within the harmonic spectrum.
> 
> ...


 
 OK, I'm not the only one who things RFT / Telefunken EL11 + EL12N are both bright, especially together. But they can pair quite nicely with dark or rhythm-less recordings, or headphones that are darker than HD-650.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> I actually use a variety of music for each A/B comparison including including pop, rock and electronica  I would never use something like ambient, classical / symphonic or even most jazz for testing audio equipment
> 
> OK, I'm not the only one who things RFT / Telefunken EL11 + EL12N are both bright, especially together. But they can pair quite nicely with dark or rhythm-less recordings, or headphones that are darker than HD-650.


 
  
 I'm surprised by the first statement since we usually hear tubes alike, yet for assessments you never listen to Classical and I never listen to pop, rock and electronica.
  
 I agree the EL12N is a fairly bright driver, but I don't personally find it so as a power tube - it's clear, dynamic and exciting.
 As I suggested in an earlier post which you may not have read yet, I think you might prefer the EL12spez as a driver.
  
 The headphone is as you say crucial to handling treble and since I have all three cans I would say that whilst the unmodded Senns are good, the T1g2 handles treble better than either of them, retaining refinement, without grain, extending effortlessly with controlled and seamless grace.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I agree the EL12N is a fairly bright driver, but I don't personally find it so as a power tube - it's clear, dynamic and exciting.




Right on Howie. I couldn't agree more. Dynamic and exciting but never over bright.

I'm talking about EL12N not Miss Universe.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT and Howie13 et al,
  
 ATM I am listening to an all EL12 setup: two EL12 as power tubes and a pair of RFT EL12N as drivers. This is great sound with that wonderful extra energy that is so rare.
  
 At first I tried the EL12 power tubes with the little Russian twins 6N23P - nice but too bright.
  
 Then I tried the pseudo VT231 K-Rs (RCA 6N7GTB). Much better and more balanced and not too bright, but the "mythical energy" was missing.
  
 So onto the quad EL12/N, but there was a problem: *H U M*.
  
 As i mentioned earlier, I fashioned a far out Faraday cage of a piece of aluminum foil. Wrapped it around one of the power tubes - no change in the hum. Then I wrapped it around the second one. To my surprise, when I moved around the foil I found a position that almost completely eliminated the hum - not audible at practical. normal to loud listening levels.
  
 But that rumpled look doesn't go with this sophisticated forum, so I shaped the foil tight around the tube - the hum came back with a vengeance. Than it dawned upon me that the foil needs to touch the transformer housing/chassis of the Elise. In other words, I wrapped it around the tube and extended a piece to touch the transformer housing. Voila - the hum is gone!
  
 It ain't pretty but works very well. I have no explanation why it works - maybe some kind of grounding effect. The foil just touches the glass envelope and the chassis.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi UT and Howie13 et al,
> 
> ATM I am listening to an all EL12 setup: two EL12 as power tubes and a pair of RFT EL12N as drivers. This is great sound with that wonderful extra energy that is so rare.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi mordy
  
 These hums can be a bummer to sort out, and you did it- great!
  
 Many times it's just a matter of cleaning the pins and checking the socket connections.
 Sometimes hum is induced by the transformers of adjacent equipment, or by electronic equipment in the house and requires a trial and error approach to identify.
 Some tubes only hum in certain sockets, or when paired with certain tubes. Replacing a quiet tube can sometimes eliminate hum from a tube in a different socket- very weird.
 Then there's the attempt to try and shield the tube and improve the grounding and you have done both here.
 Sometimes you can have an aberrant tube that sounds fine but just idiosyncratically hums without any solution. These I don't usually discard because they may be fine in other/future equipment, though hum without obvious cause like this can also be a sign of a dying/bad tube, so would need to be used with care. Some would discard anyway.
 Quite often hum is headphone dependent-my HD650's and X2's are much more prone to pick up hum from my system than my K701 or T1, for instance. Maybe that's partly due to the different frequency responses of the headphones, their construction, or to their different cords
  
 The quad  EL12N tube set-up doesn't hum in my system so I suspect one of your tubes is behaving unusually in this respect, If you move them around into different sockets the hum may go, otherwise it's the foil or another of the myriad of tube rolling possibilities for you with these excellent tubes in Elise.
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Then I tried the pseudo VT231 K-Rs (RCA 6N7GTB). Much better and more balanced and not too bright,* but the "mythical energy" was missing.*


 
  
 Basically this... going to 6SN7 you will miss that mythical energy of the EL11 and EL12. Coming home and dinner finished, listening to Holy Cole with the EL tubes on HD650. It's just pure bliss.
  
 A check on tracking shows that La Figaro 339 is in Sydney.


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys,
  
 As promised, today was my turn to try the tin foil hat solution. I can concur that it works. Kudos to @HOWIE13 who originally thought of the tin foil wrap.
  


 Still, I don't go the lengths @mordy did with wrapping the whole tube. Instead I started off immediately with wrapping the anode cable and trying to simulate the pinching effect. I also experimented with grounding, as per @pctazhp's suggestion. Oddly enough any attempts to touch ground failed to reduce the humming. Instead, leaving the ground wire hanging in the air seems to work fine, albeit I have to [re]position according to the tubes I'm using (see below)! Finally, using tin foil on the anode wire without some sort of 'pinching effect' didn't work: looks like the latter is an important part of the equation.
  
 So far I've only tried the 12spez as powers. My initial experiments were with the EL12n as drivers. When I substituted the latter for the RFT EL11 I had to move the 'ground' cable to a different position to get rid of the humming.
  
 The sound of the TFK EL12spez is indeed dynamic. Clear separation and black background are also characteristic parts of the sound signature, but I'd say the most pronounced part is its 'energy', as so many of you seem to agree. Combined with the EL12n as drivers, the sound was darker; whereas combined with the EL11, the sound was [actually, _is—_I'm still listening to this combo] brighter and more resolving. Listening to the La La Land score, which is my—as of lately—go–to music for rhythmic rendering and articulated mids, they play amazingly, with great reserves of energy combined with resolution. Therefore, I certainly understand how the lot can be appealing to rhythmic tunes and analytical cans. On the other hand, listening to Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra (RCO/Chailly/Decca, same record as the Mandarin) I can hear every note clearly but I feel that their _very_ dynamic presentation makes them too harsh for the HD600 (e.g. in this track the highs are hardly bearable, to my ears). If I were to summarize, I'd say the rendering is precise but quite forward in comparison to other combos. Still, I don't see myself returning to the EL12/12n combo, as I find this set to be very impressive by comparison. Perhaps I'll just switch them around from driver to power and vice versa, for the interest of science.
  
 At this point, it makes sense to reserve these as just my initial impressions. As @hypnos1 said, these may benefit from burn–in; therefore I'll give them a chance to develop over the next few days. New readers should also consider that I'm neither familiar with headphones, nor tubes for that matter. My background comes from speakers and solid state amps, therefore I'm merely educating myself as I go.
  
 As per usual, here's the photoshoot from my escapades.
  
 For reference purposes, this is the 'pinching effect' I mentioned earlier. Namely, that my buzzing adapters stop buzzing once I pinch them on the anode wire.

  
 Tin foil hat. Doesn't work without 'pinching'.

  
 This works!

  
 This also works! That's how I roll at this very moment. Notice that neither of the wires are touching anything. All my attempts to ground them produce buzzing.

  
 Not quite at @hypnos1's level of expertise, but getting there! 

  
 This is the EL12spez/12n combo.

  
 And this is the EL12spez/El11 combo.

  
 Notice how the brown cable on the left tube is moved slightly. Once I attached the EL11, my previous configuration started buzzing. Moving the left cable fixed things.


----------



## UntilThen

@thatonenoob  are you ready with the review of Elise?


----------



## angpsi

Oh, I forgot: this works too!
  
 First impression is that the combo retains its general characteristics, yet it sounds like it's a bit more held back (nice and airy, though, with lots of detail). Bartok's full charge on the high notes still a challenge for my HD600s.
  
 What do you say @hypnos1?
  
 P.S. Waiting for my TFK EL12 _regular_ STs to arrive. Perhaps an all TFK ELst/ ELspez might turn things around, 'cause I remember the EL12spez/EL12n combo to be less bright.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Oh, I forgot: this works too!
> 
> First impression is that the combo retains its general characteristics, yet it sounds like it's a bit more held back (nice and airy, though, with lots of detail). Bartok's full charge on the high notes still a challenge for my HD600s.
> 
> ...


 
 So pleased everything is working out well. You are on a steep, and I'm sure enriching, learning curve. I must try the pinching effect on the power tubes.
  
 I would think your Elise is still bedding in too, and will improve further over the next few weeks.
  
 You also have fantastic and demanding music for Elise to reproduce as an excellent test for the system.


----------



## Frederick Rea

ELISE without good music is "nothing"
  
 http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/chasing-the-dragon-records/


----------



## angpsi

frederick rea said:


> ELISE without good music is "nothing"
> 
> http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/chasing-the-dragon-records/


 

 Hah! Interesting!
 http://chasingthedragon.co.uk/binaural-sample.mp4


----------



## HOWIE13

AH, BLISS-
  
 Thank you angpsi  for your efforts sorting out the spez hum in the power sockets, without me needing  knowledge of DIY electronics. I didn't even need to attach the wire. .
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Thank you H1 for inspiring us with your pioneering technology to prove we could indeed enjoy the full abundance of the fruits of these marvellous tubes.
  
  
 All was sorted in minutes- I'll tighten up the foil later but what an oxymoron we have here- such very good 'Bad Boys' as I've never heard before:
  
  
  

  
  
  
 and a couple more combos-  all glorious!
  
  
 With EL11 drivers:
  

  
  
 and with EL12N drivers (which sound richer and less 'bright' than when used previously in the driving seat when they were combined with EL11 powers):
  
  

  
  
  
 It's the Never Ending Story of Elise!
  
 Yipee and Hurrah for Feliks-Audio!


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> I'm surprised by the first statement since we usually hear tubes alike, yet for assessments you never listen to Classical and I never listen to pop, rock and electronica.
> 
> I agree the EL12N is a fairly bright driver, but I don't personally find it so as a power tube - it's clear, dynamic and exciting.
> As I suggested in an earlier post which you may not have read yet, I think you might prefer the EL12spez as a driver.
> ...


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> Right on Howie. I couldn't agree more. Dynamic and exciting but never over bright.
> 
> I'm talking about EL12N not Miss Universe.


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> So pleased everything is working out well. You are on a steep, and I'm sure enriching, learning curve. I must try the pinching effect on the power tubes.
> 
> I would think your Elise is still bedding in too, and will improve further over the next few weeks.
> 
> You also have fantastic and demanding music for Elise to reproduce as an excellent test for the system.


 
  
 I'm now listening to Currentzis' Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps on EL12n powers / EL12spez drivers. Perhaps @DecentLevi could be convinced to test out rhythmic passages on this one too?
  
 Imo, this is one hell of an imposing rendering; the recording also playing a big role in this. I find myself genuinely overwhelmed by Stravinsky's attacks, albeit granted that Currentzis's rendering also emphasizes them greatly (bigly?).1 The highs still come across very sharp, but who wants mellow on this music? You guys should try it and let me know what you think!
  
 Also, the more I listen the more I tend to agree about the limitations of headphone sound signature / capabilities. Hopefully one day I'll manage to sample your TOTL cans myself to form a substantiated opinion.
  
#EDIT: Try _this_ for slam on your EL12 combos! https://tidal.com/track/15260846
  
 -----------------------------------------
 1. I also cross–examined with Ashkenazy's version on Decca to second my impression. Great recording; I have a hunch this should sound great on good LP playback. It's also, imo, a better overall performance than Currentzis's.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> (...) and with EL12N drivers (which sound richer and less 'bright' than when used previously in the driving seat when they were combined with EL11 powers):


 
  
 Repeat: Try _this_ for slam on your EL12 combo! https://tidal.com/track/15260846
 I'm flabbergasted!
  
 Switch the seats if you want something more visually appealing (i.e. no tin foil cap)—personally I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. I'm _very_ interested to try out the ST TFK EL12s [edit] on the power seat, perhaps the harshness will go away altogether.


----------



## HOWIE13

@angpsi  I enjoyed your informative post, angpsi.
  
 I don't know your recordings of Stravinsky. I have Dorati and de Burgos. I'll need to learn about Currentzis. Stravinsky will set the auditorium alight when played well and sounds brilliant on headphones.
  
 I would love to watch a live performance of a Stravinsky ballet.
  
 I was thinking of your Bartok when I read DL's post about never using Classical music to assess tubes,  so here's a Classical vid with a snare drum for him to enjoy:


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Repeat: Try _this_ for slam on your EL12 combo! https://tidal.com/track/15260846
> I'm flabbergasted!
> 
> Switch the seats if you want something more visually appealing (i.e. no tin foil cap)—personally I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. I'm _very_ interested to try out the ST TFK EL12s [edit] on the power seat, perhaps the harshness will go away altogether.


 
 Will listen to that.
  
 Yes the coke bottle TFK EL12's are a bit less bright. I was using the spez yesterday in the driving seat and was most impressed. It's only as a power tube it seems to need the shielding-that's interesting in itself.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> I was thinking of your Bartok when I read DL's post about never using Classical music to assess tubes,  so here's a Classical vid with a snare drum for him to enjoy:




  
 And this is my two cents on the subject! (give it some time, I promise it it will grow on you )


----------



## mordy

You want drums?
  
 Drum solo starts around 1:10
  

 The video is poor, but the sound is OK and your system will get a good workout of drumming in the New Orleans tradition.
  
 The British drummer, Colin Bowden, was around 75 years old in this recording - wish I was as spry.....


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Pct I respect everyone's jokes too. No matter how bad, I'll just laugh it away.
> 
> *It must be better than my hamster jokes.*


 
  
 And certainly my Koi jokes, UT....er...actually, I don't have *any* - we're a seriously serious lot, we Koi-keepers lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(apart from the one _spoon_ feeding his, as posted by @Oskari over on the Euforia thread! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)...
  


untilthen said:


> Basically this... going to 6SN7 you will miss that mythical energy of the EL11 and EL12. Coming home and dinner finished, listening to Holy Cole with the EL tubes on HD650. It's just pure bliss.
> 
> A check on tracking shows that La Figaro 339 is in Sydney.


 
  
 Well UT...if Elise + EL11 + EL12 is half as good as in Euforia, you guys are blessed indeed lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...especially when treated to top-flight cans!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 I shan't dwell too much here on developments re. my 2x EL12 Spezials, driven by mesh-plate Valvos...but with another day on the 'S's, they are indeed now bringing a *good *deal extra to the table. And yes, @angpsi, there _is _more detail (especially in the upper frequencies), air, spatial clarity, crisper attack...and that's before I've managed to test some of those pieces of yours - which, in combination with some of Eiji Oue's hi-res pieces, plus various Clannad offerings, I feel to be much better for assessing the _*full*_ range of our equipment's capabilities... from dynamic to delicious finesse....much more so than DecentLevis's fare, I would venture to suggest LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Good news on the LF...(better not be as good as Elise, though!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). CHEERS! indeed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


howie13 said:


> AH, BLISS-
> 
> Thank you angpsi  for your efforts sorting out the spez hum in the power sockets, without me needing  knowledge of DIY electronics. I didn't even need to attach the wire. .
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H13...and glad you've managed to sort out the interference, along with angpsi (to a degree!)....yes, strange indeed...
  
 The results from different combos of 11s/12/12N/12 Spezials is fascinating. But I must admit, the sound I'm now getting from Euforia and the mesh EL11/12 Spezial combo is so incredible, I shan't even be bothering to swap things around lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...I'll leave it to you guys! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and WELL DONE to you all!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Does the story ever end?....for Elise, I really do believe it just might have...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....And I too (once again!) say CHEERS! to Feliks-Audio....


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 The story never ends..... but you knew that.
  
 Just swapped my EL12N tubes with the EL12 ST tubes - EL12N now as power tubes and EL12 as drivers.
  
 Just as was reported, the hum went away from my recalcitrant Valvo EL12 when I switched it to the driver position. But, I now find the bass too strong and exaggerated, and the sound a bit too bright.
  
 So I am switching back to the EL12Ns as drivers, and EL12 as powers, with the aluminum foil wrap on one tube. I also switched the power tubes L to R, and as Howie13 pointed out could happen, there is more hum on this side with the foil in place. Go figure....


----------



## pctazhp

I think if any of us ever discovered our True End-Game Holy Grail we wouldn't have a clue as to what to do.
  
 http://www.metaphordogs.org/Dogs/entries/likethed.html
  
 My apologies to Connor.


----------



## angpsi

Okay all, I think I got the schematics right! Now, if we could only just decipher them for the mystery of the buzzing spez!...





(source)


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I was thinking of your Bartok when I read DL's post about never using Classical music to assess tubes,  so here's a Classical vid with a snare drum for him to enjoy:




  
 Bolero is great. I have @connieflyer  's LP and I'm gobsmacked listening to it. CF hope you are fine my friend.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> AH, BLISS-


 
  
 I'm gobsmacked too looking at this. It must be the new fashion accessory for Elise. Foil wrapped octopus tentacles and baked to perfection.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Okay all, I think I got the schematics right! Now, if we could only just decipher them for the mystery of the buzzing spez!...


 
  
 You have just discovered the secrets of the 5 elements. Now you have to find the matches to start up the fire element. Have you seen the movie 5th Element?


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> You have just discovered the secrets of the 5 elements. Now you have to find the matches to start up the fire element. Have you seen the movie 5th Element?


Yes. My hands are trembling and I'm sweating as we speak. Who among us gets to kiss the fifth element in the end tho?


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> I shan't dwell too much here on developments re. my 2x EL12 Spezials, driven by mesh-plate Valvos...but with another day on the 'S's, they are indeed now bringing a *good* deal extra to the table. And yes, @angpsi
> , there _is_ more detail (especially in the upper frequencies), air, spatial clarity, crisper attack...and that's before I've managed to test some of those pieces of yours - which, in combination with some of Eiji Oue's hi-res pieces, plus various Clannad offerings, I feel to be much better for assessing the _*full*_ range of our equipment's capabilities... from dynamic to delicious finesse....much more so than DecentLevis's fare, I would venture to suggest LOL! :wink_face: :



Very true about the RR Eiji Oue / Minnesota Orchestra @hypnos1, a true audiophile classic! Have been listening to the Rachmaninov and the Exotic Dances for I can't remember how long... One of my favorites, definitely. But what's "Clannad"? Never heard of it.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I'm gobsmacked too looking at this. It must be the new fashion accessory for Elise. Foil wrapped octopus tentacles and baked to perfection.


 
 Earlier I did describe the sound as scrumptious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> But what's "Clannad"? Never heard of it.




Clannad is required knowledge around here. 


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/DNXMfRvEN28[/VIDEO]



[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/Pn3qsYbACAs[/VIDEO]


----------



## HOWIE13

Still singing most sweetly, hum free.
  
 Reduced the foil a bit to make it less obtrusive but didn't want to remove too much in case it wouldn't insulate properly.
  
 They look almost like silver wire now.


----------



## aqsw

Received my 4- EL12 adapters and 2 EL3N adapters from mrsx today. Just over two weeks from order Anazing delivery.

Just hooked up two new KT120S for my dac, two new EL12Ns as powers and two already broken in EL3Ns. 
I will listen and report in about a week from now. I'm going to run the exact same setup on my Euforia side by side.
Should be interesting![ATTACHMENT=4198]20170214_181009.jpg (1,500k. jpg file)[/ATTACHMENT]


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Your schematic reminded me of alfalfa sprouts:


----------



## UntilThen

@aqsw from your smile looks like you're happy already.

I was very pleased with EL3N and EL12N. It's the Johnny come lately combination.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> @aqsw from your smile looks like you're happy already.
> 
> I was very pleased with EL3N and EL12N. It's the Johnny come lately combination.




I must say it sounds very good without any burn in. I think the K120s in the dac really help too.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys, I got some interesting discoveries to share, and possibly the last tube acquisition I'll ever need for the Elise or Euforia.
  
 Incoming today was the mate for my Valvo EL11 (yup that's right, this fine company makes ST-shaped EL11's too)
 ... also I got a pair of Tungsram EL12 per recent interest shown, but that's another story for later.
  
 Initially I was quite displeased: The 2nd tube I received was noticeably more worn out, and lit a hair brighter than the first tube which I believe is NOS. Then when paired with my Valvo EL12 / 375 power tubes I got a channel imbalance +15% from the burned-in EL11, which was confirmed by swapping it R/L. Also the sound _from this pairing _was overtly warm with soft dynamics.
  
 But here's when it gets interesting: swap Valvo EL11 with 'normal' powers rather than EL11 + 12, and everything comes back into play...
  
 Upon inserting a 6080 tube (Bendix), the Valvo EL11's magically balanced out within around 30 seconds! NICE! Now I have already better sound, AND balanced channels, and even better is that both tubes sound identical when doing a test listen to my songs in mono-mode.
  
 Using the Valvo EL11 as drivers I cycled through all my top power tubes, only to find something a bit off on every combination:
 The Bendix 6080, GEC 6080 and  Tung Sol 7236 all sounded somewhat lean, yet the latter had the best clarity, the GEC 6AS7G's sounded too soft, until... wait for it...
  
 KABAAM! 
 BEHOLD THE Tung Sol 5998 + Valvo EL11 

  
 On the HD-650 this sounded quite great and pleasing in almost every way, save for a slight step behind in the transient response / snap attack. Thinking the HD-600 would solve this problem... well let me tell you this was one of the best things I've ever done! Pairing the above with the HD-600 yielded INTRINSIC PERFRECTION! Every detail clear as a whistle, fantastic lifelike soundstage, and both dynamics / PRaT, bass definition, FR and tonalitly were ABSOLUTELY and completely SPOT ON!!! I've never heard bass like this on the HD-600.
  
 This is a somewhat unlikely pairing too, because the Tung-Sol 5998's are usually somewhat bass shy and even slightly 'hollow', but bot when paired with the Valvo EL11! Then especially when paired with the HD-600, there is so much synergy that it seems as if this pairing was specifically tuned for them!
  
 I've yet to compare this to my previous favorite pairing from yesterday (Valvo EL12 + RCA 6SN7 GT smoked grey glass), but as of yet I have no desire to change anything! And this sounded great on all genres, with maybe a slight nod towards pop and electronic.
  
 The internals on Valvo EL11 and EL12 / 375 appear very similar, both with a round plate, except the tops have a slightly different fin shape, and the EL11's are noticeably shorter:

  
 Finally, revisiting my other EL12's including the RFT EL12N and new Tungsram EL12 has confirmed a very strange synergy issue: The Valvo EL11 when paired with _any _EL12 will exhibit a channel imbalance of around 15%, and with some EL12's has distortion on loud volumes. I believe there is nothing wrong with these EL11's either, seeing how they work so marvelously and balanced with 'normal' power tubes. So my advice is if you're getting the Valvo EL11, make sure to pair it *only* with the Tung Sol 5998 or Chatham 5998 which are basically identical - this appears to be the only pairing it shines with, and indeed this is a fantastic pairing nevertheless!!!


----------



## pctazhp




----------



## Oskari

I should have been asleep hours ago. But I've been listening to this again and again.


[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/OMO-E4dSuoE[/VIDEO]

_Solveigs sang_

Can you blame me?


----------



## mordy

Welcome to Bridget's Hot Jazz Palace - music starts at 0.50. This is a very informal, totally improvised recording. And CF - Connor's friend is there! Bet it will you make feel better!
  
 
  
 Two trumpets, three trombones, and the drummer only brought his snare drum and a cymbal


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 I also experienced distortion with some EL11 + EL12 tubes at loud levels on the Elise.
  
 Some time back, hile waiting for more tubes to come in, I was able to compare directly the EL11+Bendix 6080 and EL11 + EL12N on the other channel. The sound was more full bodied and better with EL11 + EL12N.
  
 ATM I am using EL12N as drivers and EL12 as powers with very good results. I think I tried the EL11 with the TS5998 but preferred the EL11 with the Bendix 6080. Have to give a try with EL12N and the TS5998 and see how it compares to an all EL12 setup.
  
 Usually it takes a while before you get the full impression of a new tube or tube combination, so at this point all impressions are tentative, but it looks like EL12N+EL12 is a winner.
  
 What's with the Tungsram EL12?


----------



## angpsi

oskari said:


> I should have been asleep hours ago. But I've been listening to this again and again.
> 
> 
> _Solveigs sang_
> ...


 

 If the view from your listening spot matches the one on your avatar, no, we can't.
  
 That's beautiful, thanks for sharing @Oskari.


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Welcome to Bridget's Hot Jazz Palace - music starts at 0.50. This is a very informal, totally improvised recording. And CF - Connor's friend is there! Bet it will you make feel better!
> 
> 
> 
> Two trumpets, three trombones, and the drummer only brought his snare drum and a cymbal





 Wow, worked for me! Good morning to all!


----------



## UntilThen

Figaro has landed. A check to ensure everything is ok and that it's singing. A quick A/B with Elise just to get a glimpse at this point. No further comments will be made now except that both are singing like shelahs. I'm a happy man indeed to be bless with these 2 amps.


----------



## UntilThen

She's a monster. I left the volume at 9pm and when I press play with hd650 on, I almost jump out of my chair. Have to lower it to 8pm now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Tubes are Siemens EF80 and Tung Sol 5998.


----------



## Spork67

Nice looking bit of kit UT.
 I "get" the separate volume controls for each channel, but think I'd find having 2 completely separate knobs tiresome after a while.
 IMO the way STAX implement that is a more elegant solution.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Nice looking bit of kit UT.
> I "get" the separate volume controls for each channel, but think I'd find having 2 completely separate knobs tiresome after a while.
> IMO the way STAX implement that is a more elegant solution.


 
  
 Very neat. Same volume knob for both channels. Pity you couldn't be at the Sydney meet in March. Would love to listen to your Stax.


----------



## pctazhp

There was a man from Sydney
 He had a very strong kidney
 And he never got cramps
 Because he had many amps


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> If the view from your listening spot matches the one on your avatar, no, we can't.




Sadly, no.


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Very true about the RR Eiji Oue / Minnesota Orchestra @hypnos1, a true audiophile classic! Have been listening to the Rachmaninov and the Exotic Dances for I can't remember how long... One of my favorites, definitely. But what's "Clannad"? Never heard of it.


 
  
 Hi angpsi...our mutual friend (isn't that a classic Dickens novel lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) @Oskari has already answered for me...and the reason I like most of their work isn't just because I _love _it, but also because combining acoustic and electronic within their modern take on Celtish folk music - plus some very well-engineered tracks - it covers a fair gamut of sound quality indices lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


aqsw said:


> Received my 4- EL12 adapters and 2 EL3N adapters from mrsx today. Just over two weeks from order Anazing delivery.
> 
> Just hooked up two new KT120S for my dac, two new EL12Ns as powers and two already broken in EL3Ns.
> I will listen and report in about a week from now. I'm going to run the exact same setup on my Euforia side by side.
> Should be interesting!


 
  
 Interesting indeed, aqsw...look forward especially to your comparison of the two amps with those tubes.
 And your tube DAC sure is one serious piece of kit now!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> There was a man from Sydney
> He had a very strong kidney
> And he never got cramps
> Because he had many amps


 
  
 I think your 'she sells seashells by the seashore..' is much better. 
  
 Rolling amps is so much fun. Wait till Euforia gets here, I'll be blurry eyes everyday. I slept past midnight last night. !


----------



## UntilThen

After just a few hours, I find the LF339 really good sounding. Even slightly wider soundstage. Pity she's not getting much exposure now. Equally I'm astonished how well Elise is holding. up. Wait she's more than holding up. Elise with Telefunken EL11 and EL12 is just magical.
  
 A full prognosis will be given after a few weeks later after I have done a few x-rays and ct scans.


----------



## connieflyer

Are you having the scans of yourself or the amps? Want to make sure you are alright!


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again folks...*Re. Valvo EL11s* and DecentLevi's recent sweeping statement that "when paired with _any_ EL12 will exhibit a channel imbalance of 15%" (and "should _only _be paired with xxxxxxxx")....given his 'conclusion', based on results from just _*one pair of tubes(!!)*_, once again, alas, I am compelled to make further comments to his statements that hopefully will give a more accurate picture.
  
 Firstly, there is quite a variation in the Valvo EL11, over and above those he tested : Black Glass with solid _oval_ plates; BG with _mesh_ oval plates; _possibly_ BG with _round_ plates; Grey Glass with probably _either_ shaped plates...in other words, far too much variation for *any* such bold statement to have any credibility/reliability lol!
  
 Secondly, I personally have tested _*four*_  BG Valvo oval mesh plate EL11s and one oval solid plate, plus one Grey Glass Valvo EL11 with a selection of EL12s/EL12N/EL12 'Spezials', and I have not encountered *any *such channel "imbalance"...(but of course, there's always the possibility of different results from different tubes lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Hopefully my more in-depth trials may allay any apprehension folks might now have regarding the Valvo EL11/EL12 combo - one single result is no basis for bold, sweeping statements IMHO!!...it requires _multiple_ experiments LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Are you having the scans of yourself or the amps? Want to make sure you are alright!


 
  
 After Euforia arrives, I'll definitely need the scans myself. It'll be pretty sick going amongst those 3 amps. Might be a hearing overload.


----------



## connieflyer

Good thing you are still young enough for all the stess!  It will be hard to sit down to listen some nights and have to not only decide, vinyl, digital, analog cd, LF, Elise, or Eup hope it does not cause sensory overload.


----------



## pctazhp

Sweeping generalizations


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again folks...*Re. Valvo EL11s* and DecentLevi's recent sweeping statement that "when paired with _any_ EL12 will exhibit a channel imbalance of 15%" (and "should _only _be paired with xxxxxxxx")....given his 'conclusion', based on results from just _*one pair of tubes(!!)*_, once again, alas, I am compelled to make further comments to his statements that hopefully will give a more accurate picture.
> 
> Firstly, there is quite a variation in the Valvo EL11, over and above those he tested : Black Glass with solid _oval_ plates; BG with _mesh_ oval plates; _possibly_ BG with _round_ plates; Grey Glass with probably _either_ shaped plates...in other words, far too much variation for *any* such bold statement to have any credibility/reliability lol!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I hear you @hypnos1 . My Telefunken EL11 and EL12 are REALLY great sounding. So good I hug my knees. With your black Valvo EL11 and mesh plates I'm sure you'll be hugging your gold fishes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I only wish they are adapted by you with silver wire. Mrs X adapters needs to be seated properly or they get some interference, which is annoying. My experience anyway. Others may have a more positive experience with her EL11 / 12 adapters.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I hear you @hypnos1 . My Telefunken EL11 and EL12 are REALLY great sounding. So good I hug my knees. With your black Valvo EL11 and mesh plates I'm sure you'll be hugging your gold fishes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I've had no problem with the adapters and so THEY ARE PERFECT.
  
 Or is it


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I've had no problem with the adapters and so THEY ARE PERFECT.


 
  
 Licky you. You must have done something right in your lifetime.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I hear you @hypnos1 . My Telefunken EL11 and EL12 are REALLY great sounding. So good I hug my knees. With your black Valvo EL11 and mesh plates *I'm sure you'll be hugging your gold* *fishes*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You bet UT!...but...er..._goldfishes?!_...you're talkin' to one "seriously serious Koi-keeper", remember?...no blasphemy allowed here LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Anyway, better go keep the 'Elise/Euforia Widow' company....or else it just might be poached _Gold Koi_ for dinner tomorrow! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen  here is a piece that will let you decern the various intruments and their effect on the sonics of your phones, the man playing the snare drum has to have arms of steel and way more concentration than I could ever hope to have. Amazing rendition in clarity and performance.


----------



## UntilThen

Come to think of it, it's probably not the adapters but one of my EL11 just a touch more sensitive.
  
 When I use EL12N as drivers with EL12 as powers with those same adapters, it's rock solid. Sounds like your experience too @mordy  ?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Licky you. You must have done something right in your lifetime.


 

 I have no self-control


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Once or twice I had a terrible imbalance with driver tubes that was hard to explain. My theory is that certain dual triodes may be very much off between each half of the triode and this may create the imbalance - don't know..
  
 Anyhow, in the interest of scientific exploration and for the benefit of the brave souls who go on tube rolling adventures into the unknown and uncharted currents (electrical) I tried a no,  a good maybe and a real *DON'T* as well. (Not on purpose - just a glitch I attribute to my advanced age...)
  
 Maybe: Four EL12N. This is a very nice and competent sound with everything good, but lacking that elusive magic.
  
 No: Two Mazda/Visseux 6N7G as drivers with a quad of EL12N as power tubes. Some hum that I could not foil away, and a yucky thin sound. Nyet, Nein, Nej (for Oskari)
  
 DO NOT: Upon somebody's suggestion, I used a pair of EL12N as drivers with a pair of Tung Sol 5998 as power tubes. The sound was excellent, but then it dawned upon me that I am exceeding the current draw of the Elise: 2.5+2.5+1.2+1.2A = 7.4A
  
 I admit it - I fell into the trap.
  
 Lunged for the off switch - phew - everything is OK except for my tube rolling ego.....
  
 Wonder if the new amp with the beefed up transformer will handle this load?


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Yes, it looks like a recalcitrant EL12 likes the driver's seat better than being a back seat driver lol.
  
 (Not sure if I understand what I just wrote, but I agree with you.)


----------



## connieflyer

Beethoven Symphony no. 5 anyone?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen  here is a piece that will let you decern the various intruments and their effect on the sonics of your phones, the man playing the snare drum has to have arms of steel and way more concentration than I could ever hope to have. Amazing rendition in clarity and performance.





 The first classical music I ever heard was when my grandfather played Ravel's Bolero circa 1953.. A stack of 8 or 10 78s (at least it seemed like that many to me) on the record changer that came in the same cabinet as his Magnavox black & white TV. Have always loved it.


----------



## connieflyer

@UntilThen I can't remember it I sent you the Scherazade with Leopold Stowkoski conducting, it was a London Phase 4 disk, if I did try the last movement, the last two minutes where the bass plays off the violin, the notes are held so long and pure, on vinyl it really comes through, on the digital recordings I have heard not as good.


----------



## connieflyer

Or how about a rousing rendition by the Auckland Symphony Orchestra of the PIrates of the Carribean


----------



## HOWIE13

Was reading up about 'Bolero' and had forgotton it was originally a Spanish/Latin American slow dance so here it is:


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> No: Two Mazda/Visseux 6N7G as drivers with a quad of EL12N as power tubes. Some hum that I could not foil away, and a yucky thin sound. Nyet, Nein, Nej (for Oskari)


 
 Hi mordy
  
 .......and I thought I was the only person to have tried quad EL12's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Have you tried them with any other drivers?
 I've used them as powers with a few drivers and found them very quiet with no hum, but I've not used 6N7's, so that's really interesting.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen  here is a piece that will let you decern the various intruments and their effect on the sonics of your phones, the man playing the snare drum has to have arms of steel and way more concentration than I could ever hope to have. Amazing rendition in clarity and performance.




  
 Excellent performance, and I love the jazzy trombone starting at 9,32.


----------



## connieflyer

Believe it or not back in the seventies used to play this to help females get in a shall we save more romantic mood. That repeating line over and over again building to a friend's E help them to realize their dream of immortality period or something like that


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 I'll try more tubes with the quad EL12N, but find it heard to tear myself away from the EL13 combo...
  
 Here is some jazzy trombone - Jubilee Stomp (a Duke Ellington tune) by the Carling family from Sweden:
  
 Amazing playing by two sisters....


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer. I'm leaving now to make my nightly run to McDonald's. So I'm leaving you in charge.
  
 If I don't return, please contact the Scottsdale police and ask them to bring in Ronald McDonald for questioning.


----------



## connieflyer

Okay, this is our big chance, let's move everything around so PCT can't finds anything!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Okay, this is our big chance, let's move everything around so PCT can't finds anything!


 

 Some caretaker Fearless Leader you make 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'm back from McDonald's. I have no idea why, but I'm starting to get a bad stomach ache. So I may not be able to stick around very long.
  
 Do you remember this song? At one point it was my favorite song. I was in first grade and dating a girl named Smokey Lala Wanname.


----------



## connieflyer

Do remember that song, and visit the mountains (so named) often, beautiful place. Sorry about your stomach ache, but it will pass with time, just like whatever caused it!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Do remember that song, and visit the mountains (so named) often, beautiful place. Sorry about your stomach ache, but it will pass with time, *just like whatever caused it!*


 
 Life is full of mysteries.
  
 One more oldie-but-goodie. This is from my bird watching days.


----------



## pctazhp

Oh heck. I'll dedicate this to the Australian Audiophile Association here now Promise this is the last one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 From Glendale, Arizona's own Marty Robbins. This reminds me of when I was stationed at Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego. I participated in a cultural exchange program sponsored by the Canal Street Business Owners Association in Tijuana, Mexico


----------



## pctazhp

OK. I can tell when I'm not wanted. I was going to post "Pass the Turnip Greens", but not now. So sad, you lose.
  
 I'm taking my headphones and going home for the night.


----------



## connieflyer

Hope your stomach feels better mine's getting worse just listening to you talk, yep yep


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Hope your stomach feels better mine's getting worse just listening to you talk, yep yep


 

 Even from my deep sleep I can sense when my fan club is clamoring for my return. I Left My Stomach Ache In San Francisco. It made its way to you all by itself.


----------



## connieflyer

Unlike you I will suffer in silence. Mainly because kind of wants to go for a walk again. It's 50 degrees yesterday 28 today and snow and 65 by Saturday and sunny, and they wonder why people in Michigan get a little stir-crazy. Well actually that's not the entire reason I Was Born This Way others were okay though


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello all a few tidbits:
  
 First RE my report of the channel imbalance and volume break-up of Valvo EL11 with any EL12's. This does appear to be a solid issue and not just a fluke, as the problem was duplicated with these Valvo's paired with three separate pairs of completely different class of EL12's as powers, and not present with any of several other class of powers. Additionally, Mordy has had the same issues, but with his Telefunken EL11 + Valvo EL12. From my post here, I had meant this fluke to be specific to the ecxact type of Valvo EL11's shown in my photo, save for other variations. And this may be a synergy issue specific to Elise and not on Euforia, as no such problem seemed present for H1. For me it's not the greatest problem though, because its' paring with the Tung Sol 5998 sound spectacular, as well as balanced in both channels. I was just giving a cautionary warning against this specific pairing to hopefully save anyone else from the same drawback


----------



## DecentLevi

mordy said:


> ...
> 
> What's with the Tungsram EL12?


 
 Well incoming yesterday also was a nice looking pair of Tungsram EL12's. Unfortunately for some reason one of them had a certain clinking / clanking sound from the heater inside the tube... that can even be heard for minutes _after_ removing it from my amp Lol! - along with a spot that gives me the impression it's on the verge of depressurization. 
  

  
 Aside from that defect, a careful comparison to my existing and very similar Valvo EL12 / 375 powers revealed to me that these both have a very comparable, almost identical tonality, 'presence', etc. with the only main difference being the Tungsram seems moderately warmer and softer dynamics; _slightly _skewed towards the EL3N flavor. I prefer my Valvo EL12 / 375 anyway due to sharper dynamics, so I'll be taking advantage of the return policy since one is defective and I don't need them. Let's just hope the seller doesn't try to re-sell this same tube as shown above to one of us. This really isn't a bad EL12 version, but with my Valvo EL12 I really don't have the need.
  
 Also note both of these ST-shaped EL12's pair marvelously with the straight RFT EL12N, for a slightly brighter signature.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> @UntilThen I can't remember it I sent you the Scherazade with Leopold Stowkoski conducting, it was a London Phase 4 disk, if I did try the last movement, the last two minutes where the bass plays off the violin, the notes are held so long and pure, on vinyl it really comes through, on the digital recordings I have heard not as good.


 
  
 I sure can remember and it's right here. Life's good here. Figaro and Elise continues to serenade me. I'm running Siemens EF80 and Svetlana 6H13C on Figaro and Sylvania 6sn7gtb and Tung Sol 5998 on Elise - to create a more level playing field. It's hard to pick a winner. Both sounded marvellous. I'm pretty much sold on a good OTL amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Both T1 and HD650 sounded excellent on these amps.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hello all a few tidbits:
> 
> First RE my report of the channel imbalance and volume break-up of Valvo EL11 with any EL12's. This does appear to be a solid issue and not just a fluke, as the problem was duplicated with these Valvo's paired with three separate pairs of completely different class of EL12's as powers, and not present with any of several other class of powers. Additionally, Mordy has had the same issues, but with his Telefunken EL11 + Valvo EL12. From my post here, I had meant this fluke to be specific to the ecxact type of Valvo EL11's shown in my photo, save for other variations. And this may be a synergy issue specific to Elise and not on Euforia, as no such problem seemed present for H1. For me it's not the greatest problem though, because its' paring with the Tung Sol 5998 sound spectacular, as well as balanced in both channels. I was just giving a cautionary warning against this specific pairing to hopefully save anyone else from the same drawback


 
  
 There is no _a priore_ reason why all Valvo EL11 tubes should have channel imbalance in combination with all EL12 tubes.
  
 Does the channel imbalance also occur with all your Philips EL3N tubes when used as drivers in combination with all your EL12 power tubes?
  
 If your conclusion is correct there should be imbalance since the EL3N is electrically identical to the EL11.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> There is no_ a priore_ reason why all Valvo EL11 tubes should have channel imbalance in combination with all EL12 tubes.


 
  
 I too find this very irrational. If there's any channel imbalance, it would have been easily replicated with other brands EL11 or EL3N. Why just Valvo? They are not a pariah brand. Valvo is an established brand. My Valvo C3G/s is a top notch tube.
  
 My combinations of Telefunken EL11 and Telefunken EL12 or TFK EL12 and RFT EL12N or EL3N and RFT EL12N are perfectly balanced.
  
 How do I know? I have perfectly balanced ears and any imbalance would have been easily detected.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I must say it sounds very good without any burn in. I think the K120s in the dac really help too.


 
  
 LOL. A look at your profile. Under - 'About me:- Male'.


----------



## mordy

Re DL's finding of imbalance:
  
 There are things with tubes that are difficult to understand. Why is it that a piece of scrap kitchen aluminum foil can stop one of my Valvo EL12 tubes from humming when I wrap it around the tube and make an extension of the foil that touches the Elise chassis? And why does this method work better in the left socket than the right socket?
 This method did not work with other tubes that make my amp hum.
 ??
  
 When using a pair of old Telefunken EL11 driver tubes together with a pair of Valvo EL12 I also got an imbalance, listening through my speakers. I had to move my listening chair about two feet to the right to get the sound stage centered. In addition, using the Elise as a preamp, I got distortion with the volume control on max (my usual volume position with the Elise as a preamp). The distortion was in the bass region, seeming to overload the bass, which became muddy and murky. Lowering the volume on the Elise made it better, but it did not really go away.
  
 Switching the drivers to EL12N made all these issues disappear with the Valvo El12 tubes.
  
 And using the same old TFK EL11 tubes with EL12N exhibited no imbalance and no distortion.
  
 So i have to concur with DL that _under certain conditions _EL11 + EL12 Valvo may cause channel imbalance and distortion.
  
 Who can understand these things? It is truly irrational. I guess that certain things just don't go together, like hot dogs with chocolate topping.... (Saw this as favorite food in a book by John Steinbeck)
  
 BTW, it makes me feel good that I don't understand everything. It just is what it is.....


----------



## pctazhp

> Originally Posted by *mordy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Who can understand these things? It is truly irrational. I guess that certain things just don't go together, like hot dogs with chocolate topping.... (Saw this as favorite food in a book by John Steinbeck)
> 
> BTW, it makes me feel good that I don't understand everything. It just is what it is.....


 
 The older I get the more I understand. Or, did I get that wrong? The more I understand the older I get. No, that's not it either. Oh yes. The older I get the less I understand. Of course, that assume I ever did understand much 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Was that hot dog and chocolate on that island that no man is??? Oh sorry. That was John Donne. Maybe you saw that in "Of Mice and Men". I really enjoyed how Steinbeck described the effect the invention of the mouse had on the explosion of the internet back in the 1990's.
  
 Gotta run. My breakfast of mustard and peaches is ready.


----------



## connieflyer

Face it PCT, at your age, we don't expect you to understand, just so long as you remain, your true simplistic self!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Face it PCT, at your age, we don't expect you to understand, just so long as you remain, your true simplistic self!


 

 I don't understand what you are saying, but I'm sure it is kind and caring. So thank you.
  
 Right now I have a Hemmingway bell tolling in my left ear and it is causing a channel imbalance of at least 15%. I could sure use @UntilThen's balanced ears.


----------



## connieflyer

Kindness is overrated, but because I am a benevolent sort kindness shall be extended in your case. Is also good to note that you have found a 15% imbalance in what you hear and this is the natural way because even in nature at its very best or its very worst is always at least 15% different from one side to the other Ergo difference is good you should rejoice in the fact that you have found that one thing in nature that is key to everything I shall bow down to your superior wisdom but only in this case thank you


----------



## HOWIE13

@mordy and all.
  
 What I couldn't get my head round was the contention that *every* Valvo EL11 was flawed in terms of channel balance when combined with *any *EL12 tube, which is what I thought DL was saying. Maybe I misunderstood.
  
 I fully agree with you that in certain circumstances tubes and other parts of our equipment, but especially tubes, can be temperamental and unpredictable, defying all logic-sometimes that can be infuriating and sometimes it can be pleasurable.
  
 As an example, today our old friend EL3N gave me a real surprise.
  
 I expect the EL3N to be clear at the top with a generous sound-stage, wide rather than deep and with a warm, rounded, embracing glow.
  
 Was I in for a shock!
  
 I put on some familiar favourite piano solos with EL3N's as drivers and EL12spez in the power sockets.
  
 What I got was a solid wall of sound, no smooth edges, great depth of stage, very dynamic and energetic with the percussive element of the instrument presented in a manner I can't remember hearing before other than at a live performance.
 At the end of a Chopin Scherzo I was jumping out of my seat with excitement and had tingling all down my spine, my hair felt on end. I've only experienced that sort of emotional response to music three or four times before. I usually only feel like that when I'm terrified watching a horror film.
  
 I used to believe, based on my LD2/2, that drivers contributed at least 70% to the overall sound signature but such is the synergy in Elise that I'm sure it's nearer 50-50 between driver and power tubes. 
  
 Another unexplained mystery.


----------



## pctazhp

@HOWIE13. I'm experiencing Octopus envy. I think your Elise is looking pretty cool, foil and all. Glad it is also sounding great.
  
 I'll try the EL3N/EL12 combo with my lowly Siemens EL12-STs


----------



## pctazhp

Scratch that last post and put it on hold. I think my EL12n's may be here. Oh, the anticipation is almost more than I can take.


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys, sorry to stray you off topic but have you any experience with socket savers? Is there any merit to these? I've noticed that I can really hurt the Elise's sockets with this constant tube rolling. Can you point me towards a reliable quad that doesn't cost a kidney? Or should I just gear up and start making my own as @hypnos1 does? (Silver wire in Teflon really did it for me; got my appetite wet!)


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> @HOWIE13. I'm experiencing Octopus envy. I think your Elise is looking pretty cool, foil and all. Glad it is also sounding great.
> 
> I'll try the EL3N/EL12 combo with my lowly Siemens EL12-STs


 
 Thanks pct.
  
 I re-covered the wires as my first attempt was awful and I'm most gratified you think they look quite nice. I can pretend they are silver wires- like H1's
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 The spez do make their mark, they are different but not necessarily better than conventional EL12N/ST's, and your Siemens are far from lowly. Enjoy your new EL12N's too.
  
  It will be interesting to see how you find they all work with your EL3N's.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Hi guys, sorry to stray you off topic but have you any experience with socket savers? Is there any merit to these? I've noticed that I can really hurt the Elise's sockets with this constant tube rolling. Can you point me towards a reliable quad that doesn't cost a kidney? Or should I just gear up and start making my own as @hypnos1 does? (Silver wire in Teflon really did it for me; got my appetite wet!)


 
 H1 won't agree with me, I suspect, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but I have just used the cheap ones on eBay.
  
 They do protect your sockets from long -term damage from tube rolling but some think they can adversely affect the sound-I personally don't think they do, at least not so I notice.
  
 Some also believe they contribute to hum and EMF problems, but again I've not noticed that.
  
 Having said all this I rarely use them even though I did initially buy them.
 I find I too often can't easily remove the tube from the socket saver and have to remove the socket saver from the amp anyway to be able to use enough grip and leverage to gently tease out the tube. It depends on the tube type and how tightly its pins fit into the socket saver.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> @mordy and all.
> 
> What I couldn't get my head round was the contention that *every* Valvo EL11 was flawed in terms of channel balance when combined with *any *EL12 tube, which is what I thought DL was saying. Maybe I misunderstood.


 
  
 Precisely this. There's no rational reason to claim that *every* Valvo EL11 cause channel imbalance when combined with *any* EL12 tube. You did not read wrongly Howie. That's how I read DL's message.  In most likely hood, it's a flaw tube. Keep your cables tidy and less likely to create interference and feedback might help to lessen '_unexplained mysteries_'.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Precisely this. There's no rational reason to claim that *every* Valvo EL11 cause channel imbalance when combined with *any* EL12 tube. You did not read wrongly Howie. That's how I read DL's message.  In most likely hood, it's a flaw tube. Keep your cables tidy and less likely to create interference and feedback might help to lessen '_unexplained mysteries_'.


 
 ......and not to forget ear wax removal.


----------



## UntilThen

Socket savers are IMO unnecessary. It's just using an extra connection that can possibly add to interference. I have several socket savers that I don't use now. I find that when I remove my tubes, I removed them with the socket savers together because it's easier that way. Thereby giving no advantage to using a socket saver. It's just to increase the height of some tubes to make it look better. 
  
 Speaking of sockets. The previous owner of the Figaro must be doing very little tube rolling. The sockets are still so tight that when I try to pull up a tube, I can literally lift up the 13kgs amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now this was how Elise sockets were when I first got her.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> ......and not to forget ear wax removal.


 
  
 Too funny Howie !!! Many ways to read this. I read it as don't just clean one ear. It's bound to create channel imbalance.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Socket savers are IMO unnecessary. It's just using an extra connection that can possibly add to interference. I have several socket savers that I don't use now. I find that when I remove my tubes, I removed them with the socket savers together because it's easier that way. Thereby giving no advantage to using a socket saver. It's just to increase the height of some tubes to make it look better.
> 
> Speaking of sockets. The previous owner of the Figaro must be doing very little tube rolling. The sockets are still so tight that when I try to pull up a tube, I can literally lift up the 13kgs amp.
> 
> ...


 
 I suspect your Figaro's sockets are going to find life a lot busier now.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I suspect your Figaro's sockets are going to find life a lot busier now.


 
  
 That and my biceps will grow. I don't need gym now. I can just lift 13kgs with every tube change for exercise. 
  
 Another revelation. Figaro thrives on using 'mediocre' power tubes. Svetlana 6h13c and GE 6as7ga sounded very good on it with EF80 as drivers. I have no doubt GEC 6as7g will sound good on it too. It just seem to thrive on power tubes with warm and lushness. Oh man the bass is a knock out on this amp.


----------



## pctazhp

Oh goodie, goodie. I get to post another picture. Notice the glow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Initial impression:  17.5% imbalance from upper right corner to lower left corner of soundstage. More to follow 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 @connieflyer. I will save you the time of sending me the following post: "pctazhp you are an idiot"


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Unlike you I will suffer in silence. Mainly because kind of wants to go for a walk again. It's 50 degrees yesterday 28 today and snow and 65 by Saturday and sunny, and they wonder why people in Michigan get a little stir-crazy. Well actually that's not the entire reason I Was Born This Way others were okay though


 

 I've been worrying about you. Have you considered building a snow amp??


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Oh goodie, goodie. I get to post another picture. Notice the glow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well what do you think? Apart from the strange phenomenon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I can guess but I won't influence your thoughts so I'll let you post your own impressions.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Well what do you think? Apart from the strange phenomenon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I've only been listening about 10 minutes. I can easily say I like a lot. My very initial feeling is that its a tad less detailed as ST, but maybe fuller. Very organic and dynamic. Is that anything close to what you were expecting me to report.
  
 I know burn-in time is required.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I've only been listening about 10 minutes. I can easily say I like a lot. My very initial feeling is that its a tad less detailed as ST, *but maybe fuller*. Very organic and dynamic. Is that anything close to what you were expecting me to report.
> 
> I know burn-in time is required.


 
  
 Hmmm far from my expectations. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 EL12N is a leaner tone and more clinical and brighter compared to EL12. But don't let me influence you. I'll let you have more time with it.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Hmmm far from my expectations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere atmospheric effects?? Now that you say that I remember. I really need more time, but so far it isn't sounding overly analytic to me. I fully admit I don't have your skill to listen and describe differences. I'll keep you up to date )))


----------



## connieflyer

It's not like we were expecting miracles we realize that your attention span is usually only about 10 minutes so the fact that that's all you listen to it for surprises none of us. So glad that you were able to get the tubes back in the amp without having to call in outside help that shows that you are learning some things, I am proud of you. Keep up the good work and let us know that you took your medicine and went to your night time on a good feeling


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> It's not like we were expecting miracles we realize that your attention span is usually only about 10 minutes so the fact that that's all you listen to it for surprises none of us. So glad that you were able to get the tubes back in the amp without having to call in outside help that shows that you are learning some things, I am proud of you. Keep up the good work and let us know that you took your medicine and went to your night time on a good feeling


 

 kvfvy7  pop'ae3i**'  kld0o=## ldkja;[9ue ==28gfnmv ';a  a93e4u093u0   glub glub glub


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> That and my biceps will grow. I don't need gym now. I can just lift 13kgs with every tube change for exercise.
> 
> Another revelation. Figaro thrives on using 'mediocre' power tubes. Svetlana 6h13c and GE 6as7ga sounded very good on it with EF80 as drivers. I have no doubt GEC 6as7g will sound good on it too. It just seem to thrive on power tubes with warm and lushness. *Oh man the bass is a knock out on this amp.*


 
  
 Hi UT...can't wait for this comparison either, when you get your Euforia lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...the bass frequencies are a good part of what follows...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Just thought I'd update here also with further time on my EL12 'Spezials', 'cos last night I was totally mesmerised by Loreena McKennitt's 'Beneath a Phrygian Sky' entering my ears...it was literally "Out of this World"...and will now be my main showpiece at our local head-fi meet in April (and will be utterly amazed if it doesn't simply blow people away lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). 'Marco Polo' will be another show track...especially for drums!
  
 I have a feeling, @HOWIE13, that your experience with the EL3Ns as drivers is similar to what I'm getting from my mesh-plate Valvo EL11s, which (apologies for repetition) are a combination of EL11 (round plate), EL3N and a hint of Siemens C3g'S'! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...a truly wonderful sound...
  
 And a pic for those here who may not have seen it on the Euforia thread...(not trying to show off, honestly lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...)    :
  

  
 Am still searching for the perfect 'cups' to cover the top anodes LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...   HAPPY LISTENING! everyone...


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen is not the only one who has a new amp. I present my new La Glowmaster 339 Amp


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
 Now I can understand why you are so ecstatic about your mesh plate Valvos. I hope one day to get a mate for my EL12, but they are so rare.
  
 As for the EL12 spez they didn't call them_ 'special'_ for nothing!


----------



## JoeDoe

Hey there Elise-ers,

I recently picked up a secondhand Elise through HF, and I'd like to dip my toe into the tube-rolling arena (an oxymoron I know). Ive got a few pairs of 6SN7s already. Been reading and I know the 7236 is a well regarded driver. Are there conclusive sonic differences between the Sylvania and tung sol versions?

Any additions recommendations for 2-3 budget conscious options?


----------



## pctazhp

joedoe said:


> Hey there Elise-ers,
> 
> I recently picked up a secondhand Elise through HF, and I'd like to dip my toe into the tube-rolling arena (an oxymoron I know). Ive got a few pairs of 6SN7s already. Been reading and I know the 7236 is a well regarded driver. Are there conclusive sonic differences between the Sylvania and tung sol versions?
> 
> Any additions recommendations for 2-3 budget conscious options?


 

 Hello Joe. First, congratulations on your new acquisition and welcome to our thread. Elise has the capacity to give you many years of special listening enjoyment.
  
 Second, there are others who will come along who are far more qualified to give you help than I am. But I will try to get started.
  
 It is virtually impossible to synthesize the vast number of posts and tube combinations people have tried since Elise first came on market. In order to provide us with a starting point, it would help to know what headphones of those you have that you favor. Unfortunately, I'm not sure many here have one of your headphones, but still that is important to know. Most important would be for you to tell us what tube combination you have that you prefer currently on Elise. What do you like about that combination, what don't you like and what are you hoping to improve.
  
 Even on a budget basis, tube rolling in an amp that is as versatile and adaptable as Elise can get expensive. There are so many variables. Preferences, associated equipment, music taste, listening experience and ability, and on and on. Each new tube is somewhat of a crap shoot. The more specific you can get as to what you want to achieve the more help I think you will get.
  
 As for the 7236, I have the Tungsol but have never heard the Sylvania. It is a good tube. Some might describe it as a poor man's version of the TS5998, which is considered one of the better power tubes for use in Elise. But I'm not sure I'd start with that. Let's see what you can tell us about my above questions and I'm sure you will be receiving good help here.
  
 As you can probably tell, we are a pretty crazy group. But we are also friendly and helpful. We are serious about obtaining the best from the wonderful Elise and serious about our music. Good luck))))


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen.  I'll provide a brief update on EL12n after just a few hours of audition. This tube certainly illustrates how important burn-in can be on a new tube. Even with just a few hours, changes are certainly noticeable. I'd say it has moved more in the analytic direction you describe, but not without losing any of its musicality. I think it is moving closer to the ST. The bass is not quite as controlled as ST but I don't find that super important. I also sense that instrument localization may not be quite as good, but I'm not really sure about that.
  
 This is really a fun wonderful tube. Highly musical. Lively without any fatigue factor I have detected. I can crank the volume up high without any sense of strain. So far, I love this tube, but won't promise it won't be just a romantic fling that will end with me returning to a committed relationship with EL12 ST ))))


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> [VIDEO]https://youtu.be/OMO-E4dSuoE[/VIDEO]
> 
> _Solveigs sang_




Still here. Slightly stuck, am I not? I just want to add that Sarah Brightman should not sing this song. She should not even try. For your sanity, no links.


----------



## Oskari

joedoe said:


> Been reading and I know the 7236 is a well regarded driver. Are there conclusive sonic differences between the Sylvania and tung sol versions?




I have neither, but my understanding, based on what I've read, is that they sound quite different.


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> I have neither, but my understanding, based on what I've read, is that they sound quite different.


 

 I failed to notice he referred to them as "drivers". I have always thought of and used them a power tubes.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> I failed to notice he referred to them as "drivers". I have always thought of and used them a power tubes.




Yes, indeed.


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## mordy

Hi JoeDoe,
  
 Welcome to Elise-land!
  
 I have the TS 7236 power tubes and they are very nice and said to be better than the Sylvania version. However, the 7236 is getting pricey. IMHO you should order four adapters from Mrs Xu Ling and get a pair of the RFT El12N and a pair of Telefunken EL11 (or other EL11). These tubes are heads and shoulders above the rest and if you shop around you can get a reasonable price. This way you start your tube rolling journey at the top of the mountain.....
  
 You will not be disappointed.
  
 There was another discussion about socket savers. I use them all the time and don't think that they detract from anything but looks. The inexpensive ones I use are quite loose by now, and I don't find myself pulling them out of the Elise sockets when changing tubes.
  
 Another great advantage of socket savers is that they act as heat insulators and makes the amp run significantly cooler with hot running tubes. Using the EL3N, EL11 and EL12 (not EL12N) which are cool running tubes it may not make such a difference though. I do feel that it saves my amp sockets from wear.
  
 The new Euforia is said to have Teflon sockets and I don't know if these are more resistant to wear than the older style.
  
 H1, does the Euforia have a higher current rating than the Elise?


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi JoeDoe,
> 
> Welcome to Elise-land!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I agree.


----------



## Andrew Rieger

So I have no desire to tube roll. Are the upgraded Psvane drivers any good? Are they worth the price hike over the stock Tung Sols?


----------



## HOWIE13

joedoe said:


> Hey there Elise-ers,
> 
> I recently picked up a secondhand Elise through HF, and I'd like to dip my toe into the tube-rolling arena (an oxymoron I know). Ive got a few pairs of 6SN7s already. Been reading and I know the 7236 is a well regarded driver. Are there conclusive sonic differences between the Sylvania and tung sol versions?
> 
> Any additions recommendations for 2-3 budget conscious options?


 
 Hi and welcome JoeDoe
  
 Yes there is a big difference between the two 7236 tubes.
  
 The Sylvania is clear, quite transparent and detailed, whilst the T-S is richer, fuller in the mids and lows, and more engagingly euphonic. They are both good tubes, depending on the circumstances. The T-S is more versatile for me and also has a sweeter treble and bigger sound-stage..
  
 Always remember the TOTAL current draw of all four tubes shouldn't exceed 6.8A.  We always use these 2.5A 6AS7, 6080 and 7236 type tubes as power tubes as recommended by Feliks-Audio.
 I don't recall reading about them ever being used as drivers. Their gain is only 2-5 so I doubt they would produce enough volume in the driving seat.
  
 As to recommendations, the aforementioned EL12N power tubes with EL11 ST drivers work wonderfully well for me, but to be more specific we would need to know much more about your own personal taste in music and sound.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## UntilThen

andrew rieger said:


> So I have no desire to tube roll. Are the upgraded Psvane drivers any good? Are they worth the price hike over the stock Tung Sols?


 
  
 Hi Andrew, I'll let you know when I get my Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> @UntilThen is not the only one who has a new amp. I present my new La Glowmaster 339 Amp


 
  
 Impressive. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


pctazhp said:


> @UntilThen.  I'll provide a brief update on EL12n after just a few hours of audition. This tube certainly illustrates how important burn-in can be on a new tube. Even with just a few hours, changes are certainly noticeable. I'd say it has moved more in the analytic direction you describe, but not without losing any of its musicality. I think it is moving closer to the ST. The bass is not quite as controlled as ST but I don't find that super important. I also sense that instrument localization may not be quite as good, but I'm not really sure about that.
> 
> This is really a fun wonderful tube. Highly musical. Lively without any fatigue factor I have detected. I can crank the volume up high without any sense of strain. So far, I love this tube, but won't promise it won't be just a romantic fling that will end with me returning to a committed relationship with EL12 ST ))))


 
  
 More in line with what I hear in the EL12N. Lively without fatiguing. Razor edge precision without any hint of sibilance. 
  
 I had an enjoyable hour with Figaro running EF80 and Bendix 6080wb. Perfecto and exquisite. There's power and finesse in the delivery. Then I switch to Elise running EL11 and EL12. Now this is supreme. I'm approaching sensory overload.


----------



## HOWIE13

@UntilThen
  
 Hi UT 
  
 I'm following your fun with the two amps with great interest.
  
 I wanted to ask you whether you've found the dual volume controls on the Figaro to be useful, a nuisance, or of no special consequence.
  
 Like you, I've a keen sense of channel balance/imbalance and theoretically, personally speaking, could find having separate volume controls useful.
  
 Cheers.
  
 H.


----------



## UntilThen

I find it rather useful. The amps are sitting on my desk, within arms reach. Adjusting the volume is easy. Now I adjust the 2 volume knobs without looking. It's adjusted till I hear a stereo image. Then I look at the volume knobs and find to my satisfaction that they are almost at the same dial position.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I find it rather useful. The amps are sitting on my desk, within arms reach. Adjusting the volume is easy. Now I adjust the 2 volume knobs without looking. It's adjusted till I hear a stereo image. Then I look at the volume knobs and find to my satisfaction that they are almost at the same dial position.


 
 Thanks, I can appreciate the value of the two vol controls.
  
  At least YOU don't need your ears syringing- unless you and Figaro are both unbalanced.


----------



## angpsi

andrew rieger said:


> So I have no desire to tube roll. Are the upgraded Psvane drivers any good? Are they worth the price hike over the stock Tung Sols?


 

 Hi Andrew,
  
 So far it looks like I'm the only one who got the upgrade Psvane tubes. So far I have found them to be very airy and detailed, surprisingly articulate yet laid back. If I could put forward one characteristic that I like about this combo is that it is very resolving, yet at the same give me no fatigue whatsoever.
  
 Generally speaking I like their sound signature on my Sennheiser HD600. In fact, I find myself returning to them in spite of the fact that I bought into the EL11/12 find–of–a–tube combo (I now own one pair of Valvo EL11, one pair of RFT EL11, one pair of Siemens EL12n, one pair of Telefunken EL12spez, and I have a pair of Telefunken EL12 ST in the post). Imo, while the ELs are incredibly dynamic, resolving, and articulate, they are also have a more 'forward' and in–your–face kinda sound which I haven't been able to enjoy wholeheartedly* on the HD600s (albeit some enjoy it immensely on their HD650s).
  
_* (I know guys, sacrilege!... Perhaps getting a T1 or the HD800 might get me to jump on board)_
  
 I haven't had any experience with the Tung-Sol reissue drivers, but I'd consider it a merit that the upgrade Psvane drivers seem to get me eventually to come back to their sound regardless of my tube rolling adventures. At the same time, my impressions may depend on a variety of factors; e.g. perhaps other headphones won't produce the same sound signature since the HD600 are considered notoriously analytical, verging on harsh.
  
 Finally, please consider that I'm hardly a seasoned tube or headphones audiophile: I come from a very dynamic and resolving speaker system background with no tubes whatsoever on any part of the chain. I also haven't been listening to the Elise for a long time compared to others; I only got it just before Christmas. In this respect, I suggest you wait for the more seasoned members here to get their Eu_f_orias (which include the Psvane as standard configuration) and see what they think of the tube by comparison.
  
 For what it's worth, this is what the Feliks family intended the Elise to sound like, albeit they also acknowledge that their amp has proven to be "a great experimental platform". In our personal communication they suggested, should I want to experiment with NOS and keep the signature, that I looked for "some decent Melz or Sylvania" as drivers, or "a reasonably inexpensive GE 6as7g" as powers. According to my own research, common consensus indicates that the stock powers are the weakest link to begin with.
  
 Hope I managed to give you a clear overview,
 Best of luck with your decision!


----------



## angpsi

@HOWIE13 , @UntilThen, @mordy 
  
 Thanks for the info on the socket savers; looks like I'm going to skip this one until further notice. Not that I don't find them useful, it's just that after my glorious spending spree on the EL variety I now need to turn cheap and cut down on my financial bleeding!


----------



## HPLobster

My Feliks Elise finally arrived on Monday this week 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Sadly I am pretty busy these days, so I will try and post further impressions, pictures and maybe also a full review later on (hopefully within 1-2 weeks....).
  
 Just a few quick mentionings:
  
 - It looks even better than in the pictures, this thing is a beauty indeed...
 - the hum with stock tubes was pretty hefty, also the synergy with my HD 800 wasn´t really that good. Had to replace the Tung-Sols after 1 day for the PsVane-Drivers: a significant upgrade in every regard... just ordered some AQ-cables (not the really expensive ones, I´m not that crazy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) to see if this changes something furthermore... I´m also not sure about the Mojo-line-out being the perfect solution here...the volume leeway I have with the HD 800 is between 7 and 8:30 (max 9 o´clock) on the volume knob before it gets way too loud, not sure if it´s ment to be that way...
 - I also have a pair of matched Philips ECG JAN 6080s here for further Evaluation, didn´t try them yet
  
  
 Quote:


mikelap said:


> [...] to what serial number are they at


 
  
 The serial number on my device is "111".


----------



## Spork67

I don't even have Elise any more, I'm using my backup Stax gear while my "good" Stax amp gets a refresh, but today I quit a job that was making me miserable and went back to my old job.
 Music sounds so much better already.


----------



## DecentLevi

andrew rieger said:


> So I have no desire to tube roll. Are the upgraded Psvane drivers any good? Are they worth the price hike over the stock Tung Sols?


 
 Welcome Andrew, even if you have an uncommon style (I guess I do too in some ways, LOL).
  
 Getting a versatile tube amp like the Elise and not rolling tubes is like getting a Christmas tree with only white lights - no decorations, color or water. Albeit having only two years of experience with tube rolling, I have rolled extensive combinations on my Elise's (probably at least 120 setups and have now reached a very grand plateau setup), and I can tell you with utmost certainty that the difference 'aftermarket' tube rolling can make on an amp like Elise is absolutely staggering and riveting! It changes so much more than just EQ'ing would, as some including myself formerly thought it does. Other changes include things like dynamics (how hard the drums and other sounds 'hit'), PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing), bass definition, soundstage, realism, tonality / pitch, 'presence', FR (frequency response), and of course differences to the frequency spectrum which is perhaps the most important thing in order to get good signature with your headphones. 
  
 As far as PSVane compared to Tung Sol 6SN7 drivers, there's only a small few of us who have tried them because AFAIK we generally consider 'stock' and currently-manufactured tubes to be taboo, with a preference for more exotic and rare NOS (new old stock) ones. I've tried a few 6SN7's like and including the TS 6SN7 and IIRC it has a very balanced FR with OK bass definition, somewhat lush, somewhat soft dynamics, and not as natural sounding as some.


----------



## pctazhp

> Originally Posted by *angpsi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> _* (I know guys, sacrilege!... Perhaps getting a T1 or the HD800 might get me to jump on board)_


 
 The only way you can receive absolution from your sacrilege on this thread is to send me money. How much you choose to send will determine how long you will have to wait in purgatory on your way to heaven. I realize for you that is many decades down the road. But please keep in mind that in purgatory you will be exposed 24/7 to a special version of this thread on which you will see only posts from me and @connieflyer..


----------



## connieflyer

And you thought I was the mad one! By the way, pay no attention to him at all, I absolve you of the all your transgressions, (I can do that, PCT can not). So fear not and redirect your future payments to me, or else!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> And you thought I was the mad one! By the way, pay no attention to him at all, I absolve you of the all your transgressions, (I can do that, PCT can not). So fear not and redirect your future payments to me, or else!


 
  
 Mr Wolf. Don't you belong over at the A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing thread????


----------



## connieflyer

Make me! Just got through chasing you back over here!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Make me! Just got through chasing you back over here!


 

 I'm already back over there. This is making me dizzy


----------



## connieflyer

Knew it would work. As for being dizzy, not surprising you have already had three thoughts this morning, quite a workout for you! I will leave you with this


----------



## UntilThen

Pct and Cf, why am I laughing at 1:30am ?


----------



## connieflyer

To keep from crying?  I have heard that of humans sometimes, I know PCT makes me so.


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I don't even have Elise any more, I'm using my backup Stax gear while my "good" Stax amp gets a refresh, but today I quit a job that was making me miserable and went back to my old job.
> Music sounds so much better already.


 
  
 Spork, this head-fi hobby is wonderful thing. I wonder why it took me so long to stumble on it. All the best to your change of job.


----------



## pctazhp




----------



## connieflyer

Diana was raised on my home planet and has adapted well to her new environment


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> The serial number on my device is "111".


 
 Yo Lobster, almost forgotten about you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Stock tubes humming badly? Did the Psvane hum? Anyhoo, glad the Psvane makes a difference. I was just about to write to H1, that HD800, T1 and HD650 have a natural synergy with Elise. I'm sure you will get there.
  
 Number 111 is special. Mine is 22.


----------



## mordy

Running a pair of TFK EL11 with a pair of Valvo EL12. The imbalance is less today. Found a brilliant solution - instead of moving my listening chair (it is a high back office chair with wheels) I moved my balance control slightly to the right.
  
 Here is my problem: I cannot decide what I like better - TFK EL11 with EL12N or with Valvo EL12.
  
 Strawberry or cherry vanilla?
  
  
 Can somebody tell me how to post a short video using my iPhone with sound to show how the hum magically disappears by pinching the aluminum foil tightly around the tube and extending a piece to touch the chassis?
  
 I made the video but a screen pops up that I have to set the associations and I am not familiar with this.


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy not sure why you're getting channel imbalance with TFK EL11 and Valvo EL12. It's a pity too you're getting hum.
  
 Both TFK EL11 / TFK EL12 and TFK EL11 / EL12N on my Elise sounds superb and without any interference now. Totally hum free. I don't have to pinch anything. 
  
 I'm listening to Katherine Jenkins: The Ultimate Collection on Tidal HiFi. Swapping between Elise and Figaro. Just beautiful. Mind you I'm listening with my modded HD650 this morning. It's exquisite.
  
 Alternating with T1 now... at some point I'll have to crawl back to bed.


----------



## mordy

OK - I had to decide because on recordings with strong bass content the Valvos induced distortion. So Strawberry it is.
  
 EL11 TFK + EL12N
  
 But just as the imbalance is less today, the distortion is also less - go figure.


----------



## connieflyer

perhaps the tubes are starting to burn in more they are developing a better synergy with each other


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> @HOWIE13 , @UntilThen, @mordy
> 
> Thanks for the info on the socket savers; looks like I'm going to skip this one until further notice. Not that I don't find them useful, it's just that after my glorious spending spree on the EL variety I now need to turn cheap and cut down on my financial bleeding!


 
 Pleasure angpsi, and I was going to add that even your Elise will change its character a little as it burns in so don't ditch any tubes you are not quite certain about just yet.


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> The serial number on my device is "111".


 
 You can easily reduce Mojo's output.
  
 Mojo's default  'line out' level, when you press both vol buttons simultaneously at power up, is about 3Vrms, which is higher than the industry average. 
  
 Just press the vol- button to obtain dark blue on both vol buttons, that's about 5-6 presses of the vol- on my Mojo after the 'line out' power-up procedure, and you will be outputting 2V.
  
 You can vary Mojo's vol as you wish. I mostly have Elise's vol knob between 8 and 10am and channel balance is fine.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Welcome Andrew, even if you have an uncommon style (I guess I do too in some ways, LOL).
> 
> Getting a versatile tube amp like the Elise and not rolling tubes is like getting a Christmas tree with only white lights - no decorations, color or water. Albeit having only two years of experience with tube rolling, I have rolled extensive combinations on my Elise's (probably at least 120 setups and have now reached a very grand plateau setup), and I can tell you with utmost certainty that the difference 'aftermarket' tube rolling can make on an amp like Elise is absolutely staggering and riveting! It changes so much more than just EQ'ing would, as some including myself formerly thought it does. Other changes include things like dynamics (how hard the drums and other sounds 'hit'), PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing), bass definition, soundstage, realism, tonality / pitch, 'presence', FR (frequency response), and of course differences to the frequency spectrum which is perhaps the most important thing in order to get good signature with your headphones.
> 
> As far as PSVane compared to Tung Sol 6SN7 drivers, there's only a small few of us who have tried them because AFAIK we generally consider 'stock' and currently-manufactured tubes to be taboo, with a preference for more exotic and rare NOS (new old stock) ones. I've tried a few 6SN7's like and including the TS 6SN7 and IIRC it has a very balanced FR with OK bass definition, somewhat lush, somewhat soft dynamics, and not as natural sounding as some.


 
 That's very well put DL.
  
 It sounds like the Psvane is a clear, detailed, maybe fairly neutral tube, whereas the stock Russian T-S driver is warmer, more 'tubey' and lush.
  
 I actually think the stock Russian 6N13P is quite a good power tube, and still use it on occasion, whereas, like you, I've moved away from the stock T-S drivers.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Running a pair of TFK EL11 with a pair of Valvo EL12. The imbalance is less today. Found a brilliant solution - instead of moving my listening chair (it is a high back office chair with wheels) I moved my balance control slightly to the right.
> 
> Here is my problem: I cannot decide what I like better - TFK EL11 with EL12N or with Valvo EL12.
> 
> ...


 
 Hum seems to be unusual with these tubes, mordy, though they can be microphonic if you touch them while playing.
  
 It may be worth moving them around into different sockets to try and isolate the culprit. I'm sure you have already given all the pins a good clean etc.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Hum seems to be unusual with these tubes, mordy, though they can be microphonic if you touch them while playing.
> 
> It may be worth moving them around into different sockets to try and isolate the culprit. I'm sure you have already given all the pins a good clean etc.


 
  
 There's not much he can do. Have you seen the amount of cables he has in the room? It will shock you.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> There's not much he can do. Have you seen the amount of cables he has in the room? It will shock you.


 
 That's a problem, but he's an enthusiast.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have 23 mains cables/transformers all bunched together around Elise's chair.
  
 They aren't all powered up simultaneously of course, and about half of them are not connected to any equipment at all.
  
 For many, I've even long forgotten what equipment they were originally intended for


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Running a pair of TFK EL11 with a pair of Valvo EL12. The imbalance is less today. Found a brilliant solution - instead of moving my listening chair (it is a high back office chair with wheels) I moved my balance control slightly to the right.
> 
> Here is my problem: I cannot decide what I like better - TFK EL11 with EL12N or with Valvo EL12.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi mordy
  
 I just re-read your post. Are you using Elise as a pre-amp to another amplifier and external speakers?  Apologies if you have already told us this.
  
 If so, it would be interesting to know if the same imbalance/distortion occurs when listening with headphones.


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 You made my day - now I don't feel that I am the only one who is stuck with 28 years of cable accumulations. Warning! This snake pit picture (and there are more snake pits in my room) is not for the faint of heart!


----------



## pctazhp

Some snakes can handle water ok, but all cables should be kept dry.


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 I use Elise as a preamp into the equalizer loop of a 110W ss 80's Sony integrated amp playing through speakers - almost never through headphones.
  
 In any case, when I finally got rid of the hum with the foil I also plugged in my headphones. The hum through the headphone jack made them unlistenable so I cannot comment on any imbalance.
  
 With different tube combinations I do not have any problems with the headphones.
  
 I managed to download this link to a 6 second video that can be opened with Quicktime. It shows how the hum disappears by moving the foil around the tube and touching the chassis. (I have no idea why the link is so long).
  
 https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=c3baab0839&view=att&th=15a4ce1d2a5bf6a7&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw&saddbat=ANGjdJ-i-sS8IhVC_xAjwfb967t2Q-ivXpr1R-0PXzcke1c32YP1le0Ab7mKy-2D39Iu7wxBNsJxNeLSGfYTb1oNZjWoaujHgw_gv2VHHkPjZIX04iZ1FrWUqWmPJQixKjW-YD3m9oJUQmUtrmP7SynCQe4dxy5sYpygoqSz1Rj-RU7AAtsw_zveEMlKwsWffceD3I-Ag-qVOLmLJfZ0pe7h3ZNtuGtvleCAPq8TTF5NtHsDewqFQ82sgJP-4RyQvqv1Uk2XCYUDyI6edxLxTpDNyjytFong0Re2DcGEyul1NQrdMxfY07nNhalQl7YJhY99NYvzOM7uquaI4qGP2FkzfDKAczkwwt2MDYBVbYrcHciswur2zd8b1ove5SZYVNLaooRTmFX4DPisUIxce7jR6GvKgBREqaVS1N12MRmbAYZ8zbtVxjY-swQfojVpxkaUYXgnJDuYFZaM5XnSHQisjG45nQ71Q0FVVoHCILB7xXN_-Yt2OBlzyhXZIUa87610eHRotE7_wvPJFYI-FGUmZARdyURVR9rwR8gwUUtenx2lhd36wWfvF05aNIt_-sEQnZfmrDAaKKyJ5lhyTJT_D3l6djdLygb0qwt50UARVRqCO6jsqNBzvC-M6fxJnViO2i7-lQefNv1AhYR_PNzkj902No7yN8WugrkJ3w
  
 If I click on this huge link, it brings me to a download window. Clicking on the download opens up Quicktime. I have to minimize the picture to see the player controls at the bottom. Clicking on play starts the video with the hum magically disappearing.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> You made my day - now I don't feel that I am the only one who is stuck with 28 years of cable accumulations. Warning! This snake pit picture (and there are more snake pits in my room) is not for the faint of heart!


 
  
 HAHAHA I showed the wife your picture and told her I wasn't alone!
  
 She said we should be more worried about getting electrocuted or tripping up on the wires and breaking our legs than worrying about a bit of hum!
  
 Here's mine:
  
  

  
  
 I think you win.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> I use Elise as a preamp into the equalizer loop of a 110W ss 80's Sony integrated amp playing through speakers - almost never through headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks mordy. I will have to see if I have Quicktime- glad you have sorted the hum. That link must be the world's longest ever.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 This was my inspiration:


----------



## mordy

What's going on here!!!!


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie,
  
 You win! At least you can count your wires - I can't.
  
 My wife wouldn't step near my stuff - restricted access. Besides, my room is so messy that I cannot show it to anybody.
  
 The truth is that it is not messy. I know that at 2 o'clock on my desk about one inch down is the item I am looking for. Tried a few times to clean up everything, but then I couldn't find anything anymore, so I gave up....
  
 The other day I dropped an orange AAA rechargeable battery into the snake pit, and I was unable to find it. Must be that a snake ate it......


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys...simply can't keep up with the pace here lately, so apologies to, and a warm WELCOME to, new Elise owners (which doesn't include me any more of course, alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 Bad hum from stock?...VERY strange...all amps are tested before shipping to ensure everything is OK. Individual setups and environments do indeed seem to bring gremlins sometimes...I do hope such causes of interference are easily, and quickly traced and remedied...
  
@mordy...AFAIK the 'new' Elise doesn't actually have increased power _handling_, and even my Euforia still has the same spec trafo, except the actual power _output_ is 10 to 20% greater, according to F-A...(don't yet know if Euforia's new upgraded trafo is in fact any beefier lol!). And strange things sure do seem to be going on in your setup with various EL11 + EL12 combos...perhaps your snakes have a worse bite than you realise LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 But actually, it does look as though individual setup/environment factors can indeed sometimes cause havoc with final results when trying these EL tubes, and therefore all we can really say for sure is that folks who wish to give them a try must realise that no guarantees can be given as to just how they might perform, given their own individual circumstances. Some will obviously be luckier than others lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and for the lucky ones, the rewards are most certainly _*wonderful!!!*_





...


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> The only way you can receive absolution from your sacrilege on this thread is to send me money. How much you choose to send will determine how long you will have to wait in purgatory on your way to heaven. I realize for you that is many decades down the road. But please keep in mind that in purgatory you will be exposed 24/7 to a special version of this thread on which you will see only posts from me and @connieflyer..


 
 My last TFK spree left me broke. I will wait in purgatory until my Elise changes character or my ears start succumbing to peer pressure! 
 In regard to my path to absolution (24/7 comments thread), may god (which I guess in our case would be @hypnos1) have mercy on my soul!


----------



## JoeDoe

pctazhp said:


> Hello Joe. First, congratulations on your new acquisition and welcome to our thread. Elise has the capacity to give you many years of special listening enjoyment.
> 
> Second, there are others who will come along who are far more qualified to give you help than I am. But I will try to get started.
> 
> It is virtually impossible to synthesize the vast number of posts and tube combinations people have tried since Elise first came on market. In order to provide us with a starting point, it would help to know what headphones of those you have that you favor. Unfortunately, I'm not sure many here have one of your headphones, but still that is important to know. Most important would be for you to tell us what tube combination you have that you prefer currently on Elise. What do you like about that combination, what don't you like and what are you hoping to improve.


 
 Thanks PCT,
  
 With regards to my setup, the amp is actually still en route - won't be here until Tuesday. I know that I shouldn't really ask for advice regarding tube-rolling until I have the amp, but it's shipping with mostly stock tubes, and I've done quite a bit of reading. Seems like the stock sound is a little tilted towards upper mids and treble. I've got Grado PS1000s and ZMF Ori's, both of which have very different power demands. The Ori needs more juice while the PS1000 needs iron-fisted control. In general, I like a mostly neutral sound with a hint of warmth. The PS' treble can get out of control quickly, while the Ori synergizes better with slightly brighter sources.
  
 Hopefully that helps!
  
 Thanks,
 Joe


----------



## connieflyer

I will put in a good word for you


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> My last TFK spree left me broke. I will wait in purgatory until my Elise changes character or my ears start succumbing to peer pressure!
> In regard to my path to absolution (24/7 comments thread), may god (which I guess in our case would be @hypnos1) have mercy on my soul!


 
  
 On hindsight, if I knew your experience with EL tubes would be less than stellar, I'd ask you to go with these tubes instead.
  
 Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Tung Sol 5998. For those wanting to stay with 6sn7 and 6as7, this is a great combination.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> On hindsight, if I knew your experience with EL tubes would be less than stellar, I'd ask you to go with these tubes instead.
> 
> Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Tung Sol 5998. For those wanting to stay with 6sn7 and 6as7, this is a great combination.



Hi UT, that's largely compatible with Lukasz's suggestion. Hopefully I'll have an opportunity to hear these without having to pay for them first! I'm also gradually growing a curiosity about the Melz; in some cases they appear closer to fetisch, e.g. having to decipher blue vs. grey markings etc. As I said though, maybe it's the HD600 that make the EL sound so commanding for my taste. Today I spent the whole day on the stock plus Psvane combo and I felt almost mesmerized with the effortless rendition they were offering me on my hi-res collection / Audirvana... What can I say, perhaps I should spend the rest of my days in pctazhp's purgatory; should be fun to report my impressions from there!


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> Hi UT, that's largely compatible with Lukasz's suggestion. Hopefully I'll have an opportunity to hear these without having to pay for them first! I'm also gradually growing a curiosity about the Melz; in some cases they appear closer to fetisch, e.g. having to decipher blue vs. grey markings etc. As I said though, maybe it's the HD600 that make the EL sound so commanding for my taste. Today I spent the whole day on the stock plus Psvane combo and I felt almost mesmerized with the effortless rendition they were offering me on my hi-res collection / Audirvana... What can I say, perhaps I should spend the rest of my days in pctazhp's purgatory; should be fun to report my impressions from there!


 Or, perhaps I'm more cut out for Stax Spork67?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hi UT, that's largely compatible with Lukasz's suggestion. Hopefully I'll have an opportunity to hear these without having to pay for them first! I'm also gradually growing a curiosity about the Melz; in some cases they appear closer to fetisch, e.g. having to decipher blue vs. grey markings etc. As I said though, maybe it's the HD600 that make the EL sound so commanding for my taste. Today I spent the whole day on the stock plus Psvane combo and I felt almost mesmerized with the effortless rendition they were offering me on my hi-res collection / Audirvana... What can I say, perhaps I should spend the rest of my days in @pctazhp's purgatory; should be fun to report my impressions from there!


 
  
 Well in all honesty if stock tubes on Elise sounds great to you, there's nothing wrong with that. Would save you a few quid and buy the Euforia. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'll let you know how Euforia sounds like in comparison with Elise, both with Psvane 6sn7 and Svetlana 6H13C.... soon 2 to 3 weeks time.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Or, perhaps I'm more cut out for Stax @Spork67?


 
  
 Not unless you step up to Blue Hawaii and Stax SR-009. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Then I will visit Greece.


----------



## Spork67

angpsi said:


> angpsi said:
> 
> 
> > Hi UT, that's largely compatible with Lukasz's suggestion. Hopefully I'll have an opportunity to hear these without having to pay for them first! I'm also gradually growing a curiosity about the Melz; in some cases they appear closer to fetisch, e.g. having to decipher blue vs. grey markings etc. As I said though, maybe it's the HD600 that make the EL sound so commanding for my taste. Today I spent the whole day on the stock plus Psvane combo and I felt almost mesmerized with the effortless rendition they were offering me on my hi-res collection / Audirvana... What can I say, perhaps I should spend the rest of my days in @pctazhp's purgatory; should be fun to report my impressions from there!
> ...


 
 I _loved_ Elise / T1's, but I found STAX equally enjoyable - without feeling any need to keep spending $ on new tubes every other week.
 I'm not saying I_ had _to keep buying tubes, but I just couldn't stop...
 If you get a chance to listen to some STAX stuff do it. You don't have to spend $10k+ on the flagship gear to get an amazing sound.
 In my case my 1st STAX system cost around the same as Elise on her own, without adding HPs and aftermarket tubes, so the whole "Stax costs too much" is a fallicy.
  
 If $ was less of an issue, I'd have kept both. I do have some regrets I never tried Elise with HD800s, HEK's or other high end dynamic HPs.
 Sigh... One day perhaps...


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> I'm not saying I_ had _to keep buying tubes, but I just couldn't stop...


 
  
 In my case (as well as many others on Head-Fi), I'm not saying I had to keep buying tube amps but I just couldn't stop....... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I shouldn't have bought that DV336se. That's the start of the craze. That's less than 2 years ago !!!


----------



## DavidA

spork67 said:


> I _loved_ Elise / T1's, but I found STAX equally enjoyable - without feeling any need to keep spending $ on new tubes every other week.
> I'm not saying I_ had _to keep buying tubes, but I just couldn't stop...
> If you get a chance to listen to some STAX stuff do it. You don't have to spend $10k+ on the flagship gear to get an amazing sound.
> In my case my 1st STAX system cost around the same as Elise on her own, without adding HPs and aftermarket tubes, so the whole "Stax costs too much" is a fallicy.
> ...


 
 While I have a SR-009/SRM-007 combo the mid level Stax gear that I've heard is quite good and to me better since they are a bit more forgiving with sub-par recordings.  I can understand the tube rolling sickness, been there with my Lyr2 and BH Crack, decided its more enjoyable to roll headphones for now.


----------



## pctazhp

joedoe said:


> Thanks PCT,
> 
> With regards to my setup, the amp is actually still en route - won't be here until Tuesday. I know that I shouldn't really ask for advice regarding tube-rolling until I have the amp, but it's shipping with mostly stock tubes, and I've done quite a bit of reading. Seems like the stock sound is a little tilted towards upper mids and treble. I've got Grado PS1000s and ZMF Ori's, both of which have very different power demands. The Ori needs more juice while the PS1000 needs iron-fisted control. In general, I like a mostly neutral sound with a hint of warmth. The PS' treble can get out of control quickly, while the Ori synergizes better with slightly brighter sources.
> 
> ...


 

 Give the stock tubes a chance and then report your findings. I don't think they are really tilted toward treble. If you want to avoid a treble tilt I don't think the 7236 will be the way to go.


----------



## pctazhp

To kick off our evening law enforcement discussion:


----------



## connieflyer

Okay this is about Guardians so it should count


----------



## DavidA

joedoe said:


> Thanks PCT,
> 
> With regards to my setup, the amp is actually still en route - won't be here until Tuesday. I know that I shouldn't really ask for advice regarding tube-rolling until I have the amp, but it's shipping with mostly stock tubes, and I've done quite a bit of reading. Seems like the stock sound is a little tilted towards upper mids and treble. I've got Grado PS1000s and ZMF Ori's, both of which have very different power demands. The Ori needs more juice while the PS1000 needs iron-fisted control. In general, I like a mostly neutral sound with a hint of warmth. The PS' treble can get out of control quickly, while the Ori synergizes better with slightly brighter sources.
> 
> ...


 
 While I only tried a friends Elise with stock tubes for a few hours, my RS2e didn't sound great on the Elise, I think the output resistance/impedance is a bit too high for them.  Also didn't like the HE-560 on the Elise since it made the bass muddy and too warm.  The HD-800 is a great match for the Elise as is a HD-700.  I think with all the different tubes some have been rolling I think its possible to find a combo to match your PS1k and Ori, might not be the same that works for both.


----------



## pctazhp

CF:  I think you are trying to music shame me. No fair. I protest 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well, at least mine was accompanied by a gripping story.


----------



## connieflyer

Maybe you can get a grip on this


----------



## pctazhp

Since David has introduced the subject of headphones, albeit a rather strange topic for this site, I'll simply proclaim the Sennheiser HD800S as the finest headphone ever conceived by man. Debate over this statement is strictly prohibited.


----------



## connieflyer

I on the other hand prefer the Sennheiser 800, with Elise although the 650 and 700 also sounded good, sorry about the no debate claus, that was an addon and I don't recognize it


----------



## pctazhp

CF:  While reluctantly having to admit that your music tonight is rather spectacular, it is freaking me out. I keep thinking I am seeing strange aliens peaking out from behind the curtains.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I on the other hand prefer the Sennheiser 800, with Elise although the 650 and 700 also sounded good, sorry about the no debate claus, that was an addon and I don't recognize it


 

 Strange. I don't remember asking you. I will now have to switch over to my HD700 to demonstrate how sadly misguided you are.


----------



## DavidA

Agree with the great music selection 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The best headphone is still up for debate....


----------



## connieflyer

We aliens have to be careful not to be caught by ICE, as they don't have diplomatic relations with the home world


----------



## pctazhp

Just slipped a straw hat into the oven for dinner. The HD700 really is pretty cool headphone.
  
 Please remind me why I bought the HD800S ????


----------



## connieflyer

To listen to this..


----------



## pctazhp

Very great stuff. I'm ready to seek asylum in your world. We'll just need to sneak past the ice cream man - I mean ICE - under cover of darkness.


----------



## connieflyer

It is dark here, I can make it, join me in the interstellar realm


----------



## connieflyer

PCT from all the input here on the thread I believe you are becoming a Legend!


----------



## DavidA

Great music guys but I need to meet some girls for a drink, I'll be back in a few hours


----------



## connieflyer

I REALLY did not need to hear that! Have fun


----------



## connieflyer

Well @DavidA said he will be gone for a couple of hours so let's give him TIme


----------



## connieflyer

One last one


----------



## pctazhp

Does that mean we can get back to discussing law enforcement or why the HD700 is the finest headphone ever conceived by man???


----------



## connieflyer

No


----------



## UntilThen

Cf your music today lit up the southern skies. It's awesome on my amps comparo.


----------



## connieflyer

Thank you I'm glad that you like it I have a very eclectic taste. Think that means that I like a lot of different stuff take care of my friend


----------



## DecentLevi

Now that the EL11's are getting scarce - wonder if this would be a good for for the power seat?


----------



## DavidA

CF, Pct got back from having a drink with the girls, a little buzzed but still enjoying the music


----------



## HOWIE13

joedoe said:


> Seems like the stock sound is a little tilted towards upper mids and treble.


 
  
  
 If you are talking about the stock Russian 6N13P drivers and T-S 6SN7GT drivers, to me the sound is a little warm of neutral and certainly not tending towards treble emphasis.
  
 The Psvane upgraded drivers may have a more neutral tone, but I have not heard them myself.
  
 I hope this post, and my post yesterday (#6523, p.435, in case you missed it) answering your query about 7236 tubes, help you.
  
 EDIT: in top line, 'Russian 6N13P' should read '6H13C'. 6N13P is the Chinese equivalent tube.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> *T-S 6SN7GT drivers, to me the sound is a little warm of neutral and certainly not tending towards treble emphasis.*


 
  
 Absolutely agree. So everyone knows, we're talking about the stock drivers for Elise ... i.e Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue.... with the brown base.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Absolutely agree. So everyone knows, we're talking about the stock drivers for Elise ... i.e Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue.... with the brown base.


 
  
 Thanks for clarifying UT. 
  
 The original Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB from the '50-'60's  is less warm than the Russian re-issue but it's still marginally on the warm side of neutral and a very nice euphonic tube. Very good value to buy too.
  
 Here's the two tubes. Elise's stock tube is on the left. There is also a tall bottle version of the original.


----------



## UntilThen

Ain't it good to hear an outsider saying good things about Elise.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/836821/amp-advice-for-hd800s#post_13271611


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Ain't it good to hear an outsider saying good things about Elise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I do my best to at least get HD800S owners to consider Elise. But my humble voice gets lost among all the Woo, Cavalli, etc posts. And our good friend @DavidA doesn't help much.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/785577/sennheiser-hd800s-unveiled/5865#post_13272936


----------



## whirlwind

What would you guys say that the Elise tone would be, overall as an amp...you know, the house sound.
  
 Warm, neutral, forward.....i know tubes change the sound....but every tube amp has a certain tone to begin with.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> I do my best to at least get HD800S owners to consider Elise. But my humble voice gets lost among all the Woo, Cavalli, etc posts. And our good friend @DavidA doesn't help much.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/785577/sennheiser-hd800s-unveiled/5865#post_13272936


 
 I do pimp the Elise when I feel its the best for that headphone, like the HD-800 or T1, I just think the 800S is too warm to pair with the Elise and stock tubes, also applies to the HD-650.


----------



## pctazhp

whirlwind said:


> What would you guys say that the Elise tone would be, overall as an amp...you know, the house sound.
> 
> Warm, neutral, forward.....i know tubes change the sound....but every tube amp has a certain tone to begin with.


 

 If you mean with stock tubes it's been so long since I listened to them I can't really say other than perhaps it is detailed but a little "tubby". @UntilThen cycles through 100 different tube combos daily and maintains an impressive stable of various amps, so he can better answer this question (inside joke and intentional jab at my good friend UT, so please ignore).
  
 I really don't know how to describe the Elise "house" sound. I will try to describe what I have achieved with several different tube combos, most notably EL11 driver/EL12 power. I find it detailed, highly musical and neutral. For me, it just does everything right. Clear, clear and impressive soundstage. Natural vocals - sounds like flesh should sound. Instruments are highly detailed and sound like I think instruments are supposed to sound. Well integrated FR from bottom to top. Bass is not overwhelming ala Beats, but detailed with notes rather than an amorphous "boom". Not fatiguing. Pure musical joy hour after hour.
  
 Hope that helps a little.


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> I do pimp the Elise when I feel its the best for that headphone, like the HD-800 or T1, I just think the 800S is too warm to pair with the Elise and stock tubes, also applies to the HD-650.


 

 But David. Almost no one uses Elise with stock tubes. Yet you seem to make some effort to discourage use of the S with Elise.


----------



## DavidA

@whirlwind, since my only time with the Elise was with stock tubes its quite warm compared to a Lyr2 or even my BH Crack.


----------



## angpsi

spork67 said:


> I _loved_ Elise / T1's, but I found STAX equally enjoyable - without feeling any need to keep spending $ on new tubes every other week.
> I'm not saying I _had_ to keep buying tubes, but I just couldn't stop...
> If you get a chance to listen to some STAX stuff do it. You don't have to spend $10k+ on the flagship gear to get an amazing sound.
> In my case my 1st STAX system cost around the same as Elise on her own, without adding HPs and aftermarket tubes, so the whole "Stax costs too much" is a fallicy.
> ...


Which model would you recommend as a good introduction (i.e. Vfm) to Stax?


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> But David. Almost no one uses Elise with stock tubes. Yet you seem to make some effort to discourage use of the S with Elise.


 
 I know most will not stay with the stock tubes, and I get your point and will change any further recommendation to say come over to this thread to get the best advice on tubes for HD-800S or any other headphone.  But I did recommend the Elise for the HD-700 and HD-800 IIRC


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> I know most will not stay with the stock tubes, and I get your point and will change any further recommendation to say come over to this thread to get the best advice on tubes for HD-800S or any other headphone.  But I did recommend the Elise for the HD-700 and HD-800 IIRC


 

 I know, and I appreciate the fact that you even read my posts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And I probably should have said "Almost no one who posts on HeadFi....." Don't want to be spreading any "fake news" )))))


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> I know, and I appreciate the fact that you even read my posts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Be back in a bit, need to cook and open the next bottle of wine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for Sophia and I.


----------



## pctazhp

davida said:


> Be back in a bit, need to cook and open the next bottle of wine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Don't be gone long. And give our best to Sophia. Actually no. I'm sure your best is much better than ours ))))


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer.  You are much too quiet this morning. I have a feeling you need this:


----------



## DavidA

dinner is served:


----------



## connieflyer

A small correction kind sir. I am not being quiet so much as being respectful of others. After flooding the thread with music that at times was a little bit intense loud while still being quite good and different I thought I would give you a chance to bring back boring plain, slow, and uninteresting music clips. So you see I am doing you a favor


----------



## DavidA

Has anyone here heard the Amiron, since its 250ohm I figured it might go good with the Elise?  Some say its like a better HD-650 and I like my HD-650.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> If you are talking about the stock Russian 6N13P drivers and …




Minor nitpick: The Russian type is 6Н13С aka 6N13S. The 6N13P is a Chinese equivalent.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> A small correction kind sir. I am not being quiet so much as being respectful of others. After flooding the thread with music that at times was a little bit intense loud while still being quite good and different I thought I would give you a chance to bring back boring plain, slow, and uninteresting music clips. So you see I am doing you a favor


 

 With friends like you who needs enemies?
  
 Perhaps we should allow David to enjoy his dinner in peace. BTW, who eats dinner at this time of the morning????
  
 Haven't heard of Amiron. I thought it was a sleeping pill.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Minor nitpick: The Russian type is 6Н13С aka 6N13S. The 6N13P is a Chinese equivalent.


 
 Quite right-thanks for correcting. Original now edited.


----------



## DavidA

The Amiron is the replacement for the Beyer T-90.
  
 Its dinner since lunch was at 3-7pm when we went out earlier in the afternoon


----------



## connieflyer

We should start a countdown, to keep PCT amused until the girls get back. I think if we count the days, that should give him about 24 hours for the new days remaining total, to sink in and make some sense to him!  Of course, it depends on if he remembers how many days left to start us off with. Oh dear, this is going to be a problem, perhaps we should just let him be for a bit until, he realizes which universe he is in!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> We should start a countdown, to keep PCT amused until the girls get back. I think if we count the days, that should give him about 24 hours for the new days remaining total, to sink in and make some sense to him!  Of course, it depends on if he remembers how many days left to start us off with. Oh dear, this is going to be a problem, perhaps we should just let him be for a bit until, he realizes which universe he is in!


 

 WHAT??? Am I expecting someone???  Oh yeah, Tuesday. Thanks so much for reminding me.
  
 Do you remember this song? I don't.


----------



## connieflyer

I can not remember hearing this before, but then my mind puts up firewalls if it thinks it is in danger!  The beat however sounds familiar, oh yes, that is the same beat  my Chiropractor uses, as he cracks my back!  Glad to see you are back on track with the boring videos, was worried about you for a while.  Do you think (I know, that is obsurd!) that H1 is worried about where these threads are going?  It really is Feliks Audio's fault, for not getting the new amps out sooner.  Once they come out, I will be banned from here.


----------



## connieflyer

Here is an introduction to Ukranian Folk Songs. I have to admit, I have no clue as to what they are singing, but I have always liked this. Have been listening to this for years. Beautiful voice.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Here is an introduction to Ukranian Folk Songs. I have to admit, I have no clue as to what they are singing, but I have always liked this. Have been listening to this for years. Beautiful voice.





 I will translate the first few lines:
  
 "The magnificent superhuman man from Scottsdale soon comes to our motherland.
 We rejoice in great anticipation.
 He will bless us with hilarious frivolity and mirth-making.
 He spreads the land with joyous laughter and interesting music from The Kingston Trio.
 We worship the fields of golden grain upon which he walks"
  
 I think you get the idea.


----------



## connieflyer

I do get the idea, and that worries me!  I will home school you now with more selections from the same Opera singer, group is called Origen another favorite of mine, perhaps I should come over and visit. And you thought you could escape me!


----------



## pctazhp

BTW. This is the beautiful, historic Odessa Opera House:


----------



## connieflyer

A beautiful edifice to say the least.  And to fill it I will leave you with this have a great day folks


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I can not remember hearing this before, but then my mind puts up firewalls if it thinks it is in danger!  The beat however sounds familiar, oh yes, that is the same beat  my Chiropractor uses, as he cracks my back!  Glad to see you are back on track with the boring videos, was worried about you for a while.  Do you think (I know, that is obsurd!) that H1 is worried about where these threads are going?  It really is Feliks Audio's fault, for not getting the new amps out sooner.  Once they come out, I will be banned from here.


 

 For everyone's benefit, the Suffolk Home For The Hopeless reports that @hynos1 is progressing nicely


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> For everyone's benefit, the Suffolk Home For The Hopeless reports that @hynos1 is progressing nicely


 
  
 Yes indeed pct....progressing nicely to the Home For the Hopelessly _*Lost*_ lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but just _might _be rescued by some of @connieflyer's gorgeous music recently!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(may the Gods reward you, cf...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...)....suppose I'd better retreat back to my new home! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...well, after Earl Grey time, that is...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...BFN


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed pct....progressing nicely to the Home For the Hopelessly _*Lost*_ lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm going to buy stock in Earl Grey to help pay for my Euforia


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. Do you have a vacation home on Zealandia?
  
 https://www.yahoo.com/news/eighth-continent-hiding-us-whole-193508172.html


----------



## UntilThen

I thought I'm the only one making many posts here but when I wake up at 3am in the morning, I see so many interesting posts, it's almost daytime. !!!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I do my best to at least get HD800S owners to consider Elise. But my humble voice gets lost among all the Woo, Cavalli, etc posts. And our good friend @DavidA doesn't help much.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/785577/sennheiser-hd800s-unveiled/5865#post_13272936


 
  
 I chuckle and applaud you as a faithful guardian of Elise galaxy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


davida said:


> I do pimp the Elise when I feel its the best for that headphone, like the HD-800 or T1, I just think the 800S is too warm to pair with the Elise and stock tubes, also applies to the HD-650.


 
  
 David has a point and I can see that but unfortunately you'll be surprised that most will read that as 'HD800S and HD650 is too warm with Elise'.... and totally missed out the stock tubes bit.
  
 As for Elise sound signature I'll answer @whirlwind  's question in a second. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I just want to take this moment to address the stock tubes in Elise, namely the Tung Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue and Svetlana 6H13C or also known as 6N13S. Both these tubes on their own aren't really bad. They are on the warm side of neutral and not particularly revealing in the high notes. When combined they will project even more 'south of warm and lushness'. This isn't in itself bad. Many with bright headphones may in fact find this trait to be just right for their ears.
  
 Elise stock tubes compared to La Figaro 339's stock tubes is way better (the chinese stock power tube 6N13P is brutally metallic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) .... better qualify with a 'in my opinion' here but I have no doubt many will agree with me.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> What would you guys say that the Elise tone would be, overall as an amp...you know, the house sound.
> 
> Warm, neutral, forward.....i know tubes change the sound....but every tube amp has a certain tone to begin with.


 
  
 For you Joe, I'll articulate Elise house sound. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 If I have one sentence to describe Elise signature tone, it would be...
  
_'Fast transient response, articulate, good clarity and details with just the right touch of liquid warm and lushness'._
  
 The whole FR is more linear. Bass is not emphasised but blends in with the mids. If anything, Elise's forte is her high frequencies. I particularly like that. It's sweet and clear.
  
 Ps... for context, I'm using Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Tung Sol 5998 with T1 when making that statement.
  
 Pss.... Elise tone can change quite significantly with different tubes.


----------



## vl4dimir

If you have a desk,or a furniture that is subject to vibration etc.. like mine (with some tubes) you can add some absorbers under the Elise, it helps quite a bit & it's pretty cheap (like 20€ for a pack of 4)


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> If you have a desk,or a furniture that is subject to vibration etc.. like mine (with some tubes) you can add some absorbers under the Elise, it helps quite a bit & it's pretty cheap (like 20€ for a pack of 4)


 
  
 Link for where you get the absorbers? Trolley for your Elise? Pretty ingenious. Can wheel it to any room any time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 How are you liking the EL3N and EL12N?  Those are the tubes @aqsw is running with Elise too.


----------



## connieflyer

UT are you going to get any sleep?  Seems you have been here more or less all night!  I don't expect an answer of course, but then "Who will Answer? Lyrics are right on the money.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> UT are you going to get any sleep?  Seems you have been here more or less all night!  I don't expect an answer of course, but then "Who will Answer? Lyrics are right on the money.


 
  
 Sleep is over rated. Who needs sleep when music sounds so tubeberly tubeberly good. Ever heard of organic, farm fresh with no artificial preservatives? This is it.


----------



## UntilThen

Let me play you a beautiful voice.


----------



## connieflyer

I agree, don't sleep much anymore, I am afraid PCT will get a head start on CF bashing!  Another appropriate song for now


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> Link for where you get the absorbers? Trolley for your Elise? Pretty ingenious. Can wheel it to any room any time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
https://www.amazon.fr/Oehlbach-55044-Amortisseur-résonnances/dp/B000FS9B70/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1487444977&sr=8-2&keywords=oehlbach+absorber​
  
 Yeah it was the point of the trolley, sometimes I just want to listen at desk, sometimes next to my bed before going to sleep, so I can move it in a few secondes.
 About the tubes: so far I like them way more than stock tubes but I'll receive my HD800 monday & test with it, I'll tell you more then


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> I'm going to buy stock in Earl Grey to help pay for my Euforia


 
  
 Shouldn't need to be _*too*_ big a shareholder lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


untilthen said:


> I chuckle and applaud you as a faithful guardian of Elise galaxy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> For you Joe, I'll articulate Elise house sound.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...your posts have encouraged me to finally vent my frustration at folks who insist on making _*broad sweeping statements*_ about Elise's performance based upon ridiculously limited "experimental" trials that would have any statistician die laughing lol!!...not only due to the restrictions always associated with (modern) stock tubes, but also ignoring the massive differences that can result from individual variations in every single other element in the sound reproduction equipment and environment...not to mention differences in _*hearing*_ LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 We here in Elise land have been far more accommodating to such narrow views based upon _*minimal*_ trialling than would have been accepted in almost _*any*_ other amp's thread...and I personally have remained _*overly*_ tight-lipped for more than 2 years now (well, _most_ of the time!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...much to my own personal frustration and detriment, I might add!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Ah well, such is life in the hi-fi World, I suppose...but I'm afraid I never have been very fond of bold, negative statements based upon *very *flimsy foundations! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Rant over...back to my Home For Lost Souls lol!! ...CHEERS!...to all you lucky Elise owners, and to Feliks-Audio once again...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CJ


----------



## connieflyer

Rants are good for the soul!  I thought we should remember to let @pctazhp that the girls are going to be back this week and so I will add this, he should remember the lyrics, it will keep him safe.  Looks alot lke him too!


----------



## connieflyer

Can not in all fairness leave @HOWIE13 out of this mess, so I dedicate this Scotsman song to him


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...your posts have encouraged me to finally vent my frustration at folks who insist on making _*broad sweeping statements*_ about Elise's performance based upon ridiculously limited "experimental" trials that would have any statistician die laughing lol!!...not only due to the restrictions always associated with (modern) stock tubes, but also ignoring the massive differences that can result from individual variations in every single other element in the sound reproduction equipment and environment...not to mention differences in _*hearing*_ LOL!!!


 
  
 Oh well here in Head-Fi, you'll find many coming to conclusions on a gear with just a few hours listen. That does not even allow you to step through the repertoire of songs for the test. It's probably Hotel California over and over again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mind you I actually like that song. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'll illustrate why it's inaccurate to make a decision based on a few hours of listening. The following is my experience about 2 years ago.
  
 I walk into MiniDisc, a specialised Sydney store that sells headphones, DAC and headphone amps. I wanted to buy a full size headphone. I had in mind 3 headphones. Senns HD650, HD600 and beyedynamics DT880. These were all within my budget at that time and I had read that they were the holy trinity. I was very sure I would be buying one of the Senns because all reviews pointed to them. However at the shop, after spending 2 hours listening to the headphones with my own playlists, I concluded that the DT880 is the most articulate and lively sounding of the 3 and walk out of the store buying it.
  
 2 weeks later I went back and bought the Senns HD650. After a year, I sold off the DT880 but the HD650 have remain one of the fav headphone in my possession, especially after modding it.
  
 The morale of my story is that you need to live with a head-fi item for a period of time for you to really form an impression of it.


----------



## pctazhp

WOW!!! While the seagull is away the immortal porpoises will play, or something like that. So much to catch up on, so little patience.
  
 Can anyone even phathom the thought process and key strokes CF went through to find The Man Song????
  
 I don't bash CF. I am merely a mirror reflecting his many endearing qualities.
  
 And as to comments about broad sweeping statements from limited listening, I say BRAVO, BRAVO, DITTO. Certainly a pet peeve of mine. I don't have a problem with someone describing such experience, but not when they universalize that experience.
  
 Did you notice my use of the word "universalize".?  I am so clever


----------



## connieflyer

Exactly UT, that is the same thing my wife said when asked why she stayed with me!


----------



## connieflyer

PCT, I did not have a hard time finding the man song, nor this one, lyrics man so important


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Exactly UT, that is the same thing my wife said when asked why she stayed with me!


 
  





  you're so funny I actually like you.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Can not in all fairness leave @HOWIE13 out of this mess, so I dedicate this Scotsman song to him




 HAHAHHAHA That's very rude


----------



## connieflyer

A short time out for information,My words, the words are wisdom beyond who we are and what we seek, in the end there is not as much as we would want. Now their words ::
 A review of the song by Lonnie E. Holder in "The Review's the Thing" states:
 "the elements are chilling and nostalgic. But as the song closes out suddenly the vocals command and the saxophone close out will make you long to play this song over again, and wish the song were much longer." I agree! If you haven't heard this song before, please listen until the end so you don't miss this terrific saxophone close out performed by Mel Collins which begins at 3:33).

 Alan Parsons Project - "Old and Wise" Lyrics:

 As far as my eyes can see
 There are shadows approaching me
 And to those I left behind
 I wanted you to know
 You've always shared my deepest thoughts
 You follow where I go

 [CHORUS]
 And, oh, when I'm old and wise
 Bitter words mean little to me
 Autumn winds will blow right through me
 And someday in the mist of time
 When they asked me if I knew you
 I'd smile and say you were a friend of mine
 And the sadness would be lifted from my eyes
 Oh, when I'm old and wise

 As far as my eyes can see
 There are shadows surrounding me
 And to those I leave behind
 I want you all to know
 You've always shared my darkest hours
 I'll miss you when I go

 [CHORUS]
 And, oh, when I'm old and wise
 Heavy words that tossed and blew me
 Like autumn winds will blow right through me
 And someday in the mist of time
 When they ask you if you knew me
 Remember that you were a friend of mine
 As the final curtain falls before my eyes
 Oh, when I'm old and wise

 As far as my eyes can see


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> WOW!!! While the seagull is away the immortal porpoises will play, or something like that. So much to catch up on, so little patience.
> 
> Did you notice my use of the word "universalize".?  I am so clever


 
  
 I'm already watching the sunrise through my window and you've just realise there is a universe. Wake up Pct. Stop raiding the fridge.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm already watching the sunrise through my window and you've just realise there is a universe. Wake up Pct. Stop raiding the fridge.


 

 The last time I tried raiding the refrigerator was 2 days ago. It told me it was empty and to leave it alone.
  
 What's a "universe" ??


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> What's a "universe" ??


 
  
 A universe is ..... nevermind, I'll tell you what I saw yesterday on the road.
  
 I was driving my 'lambo' when out of nowhere this bikie zoom past me. He was wearing dark leather suit and on his back was Captain America shield. That's so cool !!!


----------



## pctazhp

My future life (long story):


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> Yeah it was the point of the trolley, sometimes I just want to listen at desk, sometimes next to my bed before going to sleep, so I can move it in a few secondes.
> About the tubes: so far I like them way more than stock tubes *but I'll receive my HD800 monday & test with it, I'll tell you more then*


 
  
 Oh you lucky boy. Is the HD800 a present for passing your exam?


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> Oh you lucky boy. Is the HD800 a present for passing your exam?


 

 No but it was pretty "cheap". I've found a shop who closed & it was in total liquidation. I've paid for the HD800 new 600€ & they even gave me a free upgrade 300€ cable for it ... so you can say I'm extremely lucky


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> No but it was pretty "cheap". I've found a shop who closed & it was in total liquidation. I've paid for the HD800 new 600€ & they even gave me a free upgrade 300€ cable for it ... so you can say I'm extremely lucky


 
  
 Wow that's $830 aussie dollars for a new HD800. Make sure Sennheiser is spelt correctly on the top band and that it's not imitation. Just kidding. I'm sure it's real. You are lucky indeed.
  
 I'm sure you will love HD800 with Elise and EL3N / EL12N. I'll wait for your feedback though.


----------



## vl4dimir

untilthen said:


> Wow that's $830 aussie dollars for a new HD800. Make sure Sennheiser is spelt correctly on the top band and that it's not imitation. Just kidding. I'm sure it's real. You are lucky indeed.
> 
> I'm sure you will love HD800 with Elise and EL3N / EL12N. I'll wait for your feedback though.


 

 Don't worry it is an official dealer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't know if I would like them because I don't like birght headphones but the HD800 is so praised that I thought I must try, especially at this price (still can sell it otherwise, even with profit..). But with the mimby, the elise & the SDR mod installed, I'm sure it's going to be a nice update from the HD650.. I'll keep you updated


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> A universe is ..... nevermind, I'll tell you what I saw yesterday on the road.
> 
> I was driving my 'lambo' when out of nowhere this bikie zoom past me. He was wearing dark leather suit and on his back was Captain America shield. That's so cool !!!


 

 Very cool )))


----------



## pctazhp

And for today's history lesson:


----------



## pctazhp

If you were paying close attention to your history lesson, you heard Waylon Jennings' name mention, and I never miss an opportunity to post this:


----------



## pctazhp




----------



## UntilThen

It's not the end till the big bad mama sings. 
  
 Woke up from sleep and everyone has gone to bed.


----------



## connieflyer

Well, I was having so much fun with @pctazhp and even posted the lyrics to song, and then forgot to post the video, I am older than dirt. This is what I meant to post on the previous page,


----------



## connieflyer

Okay, it was not that I forgot it is posting the wrong video, let me try again. it will show the right one when I make the post and then when it is posted it puts the wrong file up. One more time


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's not the end till the big bad mama sings.
> 
> Woke up from sleep and everyone has gone to bed.


 

 No one would play nice with me today, so I went to the playground down the street and climbed on the jungle gym all day.
  
 BTW, who is that funny old man who doesn't know how to post here????


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Well, I was having so much fun with @pctazhp and even posted the lyrics to song, and then forgot to post the video, I am older than dirt. This is what I meant to post on the previous page,


 
  
 You're still awake !!!
  
 No one is older than dirt. Remember we're made from dust - dust thou art and to dust thou shall return. I don't care what Darwinism says.


----------



## connieflyer

I take it they did not catch you at the playground, good thing, at least you found your way home. A sliver lining for you, people watch out for you,no one wants to hurt a PCT animal, by the way what are they anyway?


----------



## UntilThen

I'm about to do a little experiment. What happens when you cross Elise and Figaro? I'm going to use Elise as preamp to Figaro as power amp. If your lights dimmed, do not be alarmed.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Yo Lobster, almost forgotten about you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hehe, been waiting patiently for my Elise to finally arrive, meanwhile taking care of my family, my job and - the toughest part - keeping up with this thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 After some tube rolling, reading, cable switching, more reading, a brief peek at the margins of desperation and lots of coffee of course, I found the source of the hum to be a combination of
  
 A) Power tubes! Switched them to the Philips 6080s - these are dead silent now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - however I´m not sure yet if I would place them sonically above the stock 6H13Cs yet.... probably not but this is first Impression only
 B) Induced hum! Because of the vicinity to my monitor, moved it a little further away - done
 C) Most annoying of them all: Power cord interference! Have to by me another multi-plug just for the Elise ASAP... 
  
 Now I can finally restore my inner balance and resume the epic head-fi-quest of finding .... a natural synergy ..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Repdigits FTW 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
 Quote:


howie13 said:


> You can easily reduce Mojo's output.
> 
> Mojo's default  'line out' level, when you press both vol buttons simultaneously at power up, is about 3Vrms, which is higher than the industry average.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you for your advice! Incidentally I just listened to a wonderful 192khz-recording of The Andrew Read Trio´s "J.S.B." and the neurotic child in me just HAD to adjust the volume to match the deep blue sample-light and I immediately thought: "This seems better...".
 Anyway since I have absolutely zero knowledge of electrical engineering I kept telling myself that probably I just messed up some thoroughly calculated engineering piece of art and mutilated the sound in a horrible way I couldn´t conceive yet.... and I switched it back. So thank you again for taking this primal fear away from me  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Edit: btw the cable didn´t make any difference compared to the no Name one I used before.


----------



## HPLobster

https://listen.tidal.com/artist/4630948


----------



## pctazhp

You would be quite surprised how many requests I receive for more of Glendale, Arizona's own Marty Robbins. So:


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Hehe, been waiting patiently for my Elise to finally arrive, meanwhile taking care of my family, my job and - the toughest part - keeping up with this thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Amazing response. I shall pin on you the badge of honor. You shall now contribute to this thread from here on and that's not a choice.


----------



## connieflyer

For you bass friends


----------



## UntilThen

untilthen said:


> I'm about to do a little experiment. What happens when you cross Elise and Figaro? I'm going to use Elise as preamp to Figaro as power amp. If your lights dimmed, do not be alarmed.


 
  
 OMG this fusion created a new species akin to McIntosh. The refinement of Elise with the force of Figaro. Apologies for the lights dimming moment.


----------



## pctazhp

A McElisaro


----------



## connieflyer

Police arrived on the scene but explained it was only you, they let me off with a warning! Try it with this song, upper and lower piano registers.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> A McElisaro


 
  
 Close but that name sounds terrible. 
  
 Magic. No hum, no interference using Elise as preamp to Figaro.
  
 Soundstage - checked
 Impact - catastrophically checked
 Bass - earthquake like
 Mids - Teasingly good
 Treble - Piercing without hurting you
  
 Toe tapping test? My toes hurt now from tapping too fast.
  
 Head bobbing test? My head is almost off my neck.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Close but that name sounds terrible.
> 
> Magic. No hum, no interference using Elise as preamp to Figaro.
> 
> ...


 

 You just keep listening and I'll work on the name


----------



## connieflyer

another for you the voice is haunting


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> You just keep listening and I'll work on the name


 
  
 I'm in a surreal state now listening to the Games of Throne track from CF. If I don't return, remember all that I have taught you, my young pandawan and bring me the helmet of Darth Varder.


----------



## connieflyer

Last one, Connor wants to walk, enjoy that combo you may start a new industry. I thought rolling tubes was bad, then rolling headphones, now we have to roll amps as well, this is going to be a journey!


----------



## UntilThen

Real life calls. Have to mow the lawn and clean the pool now. Such is life. Cya later !!!


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## mordy

My o mine! Been away for a day and 126 new posts! Finally finished reading them all....
  
 Thought I would return to tube question.
  
 CF suggested that since my EL13 combo seemed to hum less on a second day, it may have to do with burning in. And you may very well be right - a number of people in the past reported that certain noises and crackles etc went away after burn in.
  
 Here is my question: I bought inexpensive tubes which almost all were listed as used. What does NOS mean? New Old Stock. Does that mean that the tube must measure 100% or more?
  
 Was thinking about it. I once had some new 1945 TS 6AK5 tubes in military boxes packaged in camouflage colored felt. I took for granted that they were new since they looked like unused in original packaging. A guy bought one and sent it back saying that it only measured 65%.
  
 So here is the question: Is it possible that a tube that is 75 years old and measures 83% is brand new? In other words, do new, unused  tubes deteriorate by sitting in storage? That would mean that I can't take for granted that a tube not measuring 100% is used.
  
 What do you think?


----------



## Spork67

angpsi said:


> spork67 said:
> 
> 
> > I _loved_ Elise / T1's, but I found STAX equally enjoyable - without feeling any need to keep spending $ on new tubes every other week.
> ...


 
  
 Have sent you a PM - wouldn't want to derail this thread.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> So here is the question: Is it possible that a tube that is 75 years old and measures 83% is brand new? In other words, do new, unused  tubes deteriorate by sitting in storage? That would mean that I can't take for granted that a tube not measuring 100% is used.






 Yes. Even a new new tube can measure 83%.
 Not really. But 75 years is a long time and chemistry can happen.
 You can't.


----------



## UntilThen

Who knows what NOS means these days. My seller brand some of his tubes near NOS, others MINT NOS.
  
 NOS to me simply means old stock that hasn't been used. It doesn't means it's 100% tube life. It could also mean the tube and box is rather aged looking due to it not being kept properly.
  
 NOS NIB - I expect this to be in pristine condition but again sometimes it doesn't look that new to me.


----------



## UntilThen

Experiment of Elise together with Figaro is over. While it was fun, I don't think either of the amp need any external help. After a day of intense listening, I find my modded HD650 sounding like never before. This is what it means when they say that this headphone scales with good amplification. Both Elise and Figaro have exquisite control of the Senns.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Thanks for your answer. Knowing these things means that I have to re-align my thinking about purchases. What measures less than 100% may still be new and require break-in.
  
 Just tried the sweet sounding  TFK EL11 with the Valvo EL12 tubes again. The hum is definitively decreasing, but the channel imbalance is still there (corrected with the balance control).
  
 Still, I am wondering how the sound can improve with the Euforia - hope to find out in a couple of weeks......
  
*THERE IS NOTHING SO GOOD THAT IT COULDN'T BE BETTER*


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Re your experiment with two amps - I remember people trying it on the Little Dot MKIII thread. The reaction was the same: Initially WOW, and then - not for me lol.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Still, I am wondering how the sound can improve with the Euforia - hope to find out in a couple of weeks......


 
  
 I think it will be significant. Check the Figaro and DNA Stratus thread. Change of caps and resistors have the biggest improvement to sound quality of the tube amps. They even change the wiring to silver and that does makes a difference. Lastly, we are getting an upgraded transformer.
  
 What I would expect is a cleaner tone with a harder hitting impact, with razor like precision. I would also expect it to wow us with conventional tubes. Let's hope I'm right.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Re your experiment with two amps - I remember people trying it on the Little Dot MKIII thread. The reaction was the same: Initially WOW, and then - not for me lol.


 
  
 It sounded 'good' but not enough to make me want to continue. It would be an unnecessary burning away of some of these lovely sounding tubes. NOS tubes are a diminishing commodity.


----------



## connieflyer

Would have been nice if we have had the option to buy the amp without the tubes period with the e 11 and e 12 I don't think those other tubes that come stock with it will be able to sounded good. But if you want the Euforia you take the tubes with them. Couple more weeks and they will be shipping those amps and will be able to see just what they're all about.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Would have been nice if we have had the option to buy the amp without the tubes period with the e 11 and e 12 I don't think those other tubes that come stock with it will be able to sounded good. But if you want the Euforia you take the tubes with them. Couple more weeks and they will be shipping those amps and will be able to see just what they're all about.


 
  
 Whilst I love the tone of EL11 and EL12 very much, I'm also a person who appreciates variety. I like to spin in 6sn7 and 6as7/6080 occasionally to be reminded of the smaller, more defined tones of these tubes. To have Elise and Euforia and to have only one set of tubes would be very limiting. It's like having caviar only for every meal. You need your carbohydrates and veges.
  
 First of all I would like to listen to Euforia with the stock tubes - Psvane 6sn7 and Svetlana 6h13c.


----------



## connieflyer

I still have my favorite tubes from Elise I figure if they'll work with the new amp I already know what I like from what I already own so for me I don't roll tube that often anymore actually I don't roll any tubes at all anymore no amp no roll


----------



## mordy

I think it comes down to each person's individual personality. If I have the perfect combination for my tastes I would probably leave the tubes there and not roll very often.


----------



## UntilThen

I'll make an attempt at describing the sonic difference between EL11 / 12 and 6SN7 / 6AS7.
  
 EL* sounded powerful, slightly warm, rich and ... here's the catch word... BIG presence. Every voice and instruments has a BIG presence, BIG sense of space. Basically a BIG soundstage. There are air and layers. It's full bodied across the frequency range. Vocals and midrange are the icing on the cake. It is a lovely tone that will envelope you with pure musical bliss.
  
 6*** have a smaller, more defined tone. The musical space is narrower but at the same time, have a cleaner, precision tone. As a result, it can hit with an impact, like driving a nail into a wall with one clean hit. In the case of Figaro, the impact is awe inspiringly powerful.
  
 Those who have heard both can probably relate to what I'm describing better.
  
 It is in this context that I'm evaluating Elise and Figaro. EL* in Elise and 6*** in Figaro. It's like apples and oranges. The only commonality is that they are both fruity tube amps. Despite their differences in tone, they are both equally engaging and enticing. 
  
 Still not a review but I'm muttering to myself as I go along. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Edit:- Not exactly 6*** in Figaro. I'm using EF80 and Bendix 6080. The description of smaller presence applies though.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Whilst I love the tone of EL11 and EL12 very much, I'm also a person who appreciates variety. I like to spin in 6sn7 and 6as7/6080 occasionally to be reminded of the smaller, more defined tones of these tubes. To have Elise and Euforia and to have only one set of tubes would be very limiting. It's like having caviar only for every meal. You need your carbohydrates and veges.
> 
> First of all I would like to listen to Euforia with the stock tubes - Psvane 6sn7 and Svetlana 6h13c.


 
 Similarily, whilst I'm captivated by the EL12spez/EL3N combo just now for music requiring a 'grand' scale, more intimate music, like solo violin, sounds very good in a smaller sound-stage.
  
 Here's the dreamy sort of Sunday morning music I mean:


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> Thanks for your answer. Knowing these things means that I have to re-align my thinking about purchases. What measures less than 100% may still be new and require break-in.
> 
> ...


 
 I concluded some years ago that most of the channel imbalance I experience is due to the poor hearing of sound engineers, doubtless due to their excessive use of headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Similarily, whilst I'm captivated by the EL12spez/EL3N combo just now for music requiring a 'grand' scale, more intimate pieces, like solo violin, sounds very good in a smaller sound-stage.
> 
> Here's the dreamy sort of Sunday morning music I mean:


 
  
 I sat through this piece twice. Once with Elise and EL11 / EL12N and then Figaro with EF80 and Mullard 6080.
  
 Both so beautiful. Love it when the violin hits the high keys at 2:56.
  
 Alright now throw me a 'grand' piece.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I concluded some years ago that most of the channel imbalance I experience is due to the poor hearing of sound engineers, doubtless due to their excessive use of headphones.


 
  
 I concluded that channel imbalance is best solved by an amp with dual volume control. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 This I have to give the tick to Figaro.


----------



## HOWIE13

Quot: 





untilthen said:


> I sat through this piece twice. Once with Elise and EL11 / EL12N and then Figaro with EF80 and Mullard 6080.
> 
> Both so beautiful. Love it when the violin hits the high keys at 2:56.
> 
> Alright now throw me a 'grand' piece.


 
 Okay-try this for  big scale grand piano, I was listening to it last night:


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I concluded that channel imbalance is best solved by an amp with dual volume control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 In the absense of a Figaro I sometimes have to resort to one of these. It works well.
  
  
 http://en-ie.sennheiser.com/accessories-hzr-62


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Okay-try this for  big scale grand piano, I was listening to it last night:


 
  
 Wow after hearing this, I'm inspired to replicate it on my humble Steinbach. Except I can't play the piano so I might try pounding it with my fists.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Wow after hearing this, I'm inspired to replicate it on my humble Steinbach. Except I can't play the piano so I might try pounding it with my fists.


 
  
 Glad you enjoyed those pieces.
  
 When you hear such contrasting music it becomes apparent how impossible it is to have a 'one fit all' system, which is why I believe a versatile tube amp like Elise is so essential, at least for me anyway.
  
 Having said that, I don't really need 19 pairs of headphones!
  
 Incidently, that young pianist is so good on that vid  I've just bought his CD.


----------



## UntilThen

This is grand scale. Dang dang dang dang is underrated. It's a lovely piece. In my next life I want to be a conductor.
  
 Btw I'm willing to compromise. I reckon my head-fi system is good enough to enjoy classical without selling the cavoodle.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> This is grand scale. Dang dang dang dang is underrated. It's a lovely piece. In my next life I want to be a conductor.
> 
> Btw I'm willing to compromise. I reckon my head-fi system is good enough to enjoy classical without selling the cavoodle.




 LOL I conduct anyway, while I'm listening.
  
 That is certainly grand scale Beethoven, and wonderful with EL12's of whatever variety.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> LOL I conduct anyway, while I'm listening.
> 
> That is certainly grand scale Beethoven, and wonderful with EL12's of whatever variety.


 
  
 Make sure no one is around you while you are conducting. Don't want you to hurt them with your flailing arms.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Make sure no one is around you while you are conducting. Don't want you to hurt them with your flailing arms.


 
  
 That's me- I usually hit myself in the face. lol.


----------



## UntilThen

After a weekend of listening mostly to the Figaro and was really loving it, I return to Elise now. With the EL13 tubes in place, I wonder how I could go for more than a day without it. This is a tone to die for.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> After a weekend of listening mostly to the Figaro and was really loving it, I return to Elise now. With the EL13 tubes in place, I wonder how I could go for more than a day without it. This is a tone to die for.


 
 My memory is so foggy this Sunday morning. Please remind me, EL13, is that one or other variety of EL12 powers with EL11 drivers or another combination of the two tubes? Thanks.


----------



## UntilThen

EL13 = EL11 + EL12N.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So says Enstein.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> EL13 = EL11 + EL12N.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's easy and I presume the EL12N's are the powers in your present set-up, as in mine?
  
 I think some have reversed them to have  EL12's as drivers and I don't find them as good, except for the spez, which make good drivers.-bit odd that.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> That's easy and* I presume the EL12N's are the powers in your present set-up, as in mine?*
> 
> I think some have reversed them to have  EL12's as drivers and I don't find them as good, except for the spez, which make good drivers.-bit odd that.


 
  
 Oh yes for sure. EL12N has twice as much power as EL11 so it goes to the back. Rear wheel drive got it? 
  
 Do you know the advantages of a rear wheel drive car? All load of the car is spread across all 4 wheels. That's call balance.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg I went back to Figaro and it's sounding so good again. This comparo is getting impossible. Let's just forget about it. I'm just going to listen to music come rain or shine.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Omg I went back to Figaro and it's sounding so good again. This comparo is getting impossible. Let's just forget about it. I'm just going to listen to music come rain or shine.


 
 Excellent idea-I have to go out for lunch unfortunately, otherwise I could be enjoying EL13 too.
  
 You are probably reaching the apotheosis of perfect sound-until Euforia.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> EL13 = EL11 + EL12N.
> 
> So says Enstein.




That might confuse some people because there's this:



 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el13.html
 http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0177.htm


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > What would you guys say that the Elise tone would be, overall as an amp...you know, the house sound.
> ...


 
 Thanks for your response


----------



## Frederick Rea

a mighty document to adjust HF and sssss to your ears on your headphone (for beginners, I may say)
 https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/taming-the-treble/


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> That might confuse some people because there's this:
> 
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el13.html
> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0177.htm


 
  
 Huh there is indeed a EL13.


----------



## UntilThen

frederick rea said:


> a mighty document to adjust HF and sssss to your ears on your headphone (for beginners, I may say)
> https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/taming-the-treble/


 
  
 Not directly related to this but I've never been troubled by the so call treble peak of the HD800 and T1. Many have gone on to tame it but I cannot understand why. When listening through a tube amp such as Elise and Figaro, they present the clearest and sweetest high frequencies possible.


----------



## connieflyer

At least with the  Senn 800 there was supposedly a spike in the treble when they first came out, and Sennheiser made a change to later models.  Don't know if it is true in fact, but I see a lot of them for sale stating they are higher serial number and therefore do not have the spike. They seem to refer to s'n's after 25000. Mine are 45000+ and I have no such spike.  I had a friend over and he is sensitive to that region and had no problem.  He had to send his 700 back for that reason. The Beyers when I had them had no such problem either.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Not directly related to this but I've never been troubled by the so call treble peak of the HD800 and T1. Many have gone on to tame it but I cannot understand why. When listening through a tube amp such as Elise and Figaro, they present the clearest and sweetest high frequencies possible.


 

 I must have the solid state Elise version, because I find HD800S and T1G2 both wonderful with my Elise, but do find the treble spike in HD700 a tad less than ideal.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I must have the solid state Elise version, because I find HD800S and T1G2 both wonderful with my Elise, but do find the treble spike in HD700 a tad less than ideal.


 
  
 When I attend the Sydney meet on the 25th March, I'll be able to try the HD800S with Euforia and stock tubes. I think it will be just perfect. I don't subscribe to the notion that Sennheiser tune the HD800S for solid state. They are tube lovers true and true. Look at the Orpheus.


----------



## connieflyer

Agreed


----------



## UntilThen

Sounds like a lot of money.


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> I must have the solid state Elise version, because I find HD800S and T1G2 both wonderful with my Elise, but do find the treble spike in HD700 a tad less than ideal.


 
 This is where tube rolling is the key, I would guess that the tubes you are currently using are quite neutral and make the Elise pair quite well with the 800S and T1g2 but since its neutral the HD700 still has the spike.  If you use tubes to make the HD-700 sound ideal then I would think that the 800S and T1g2 might sound a little to warm and gooey.
  
 The HD-800S and T1g2 were specifically made to remove the treble spike from the originals so it made them much less amp picky, but I feel that in some cases the warmer nature of the 800S and Gen2 means that they might not pair as well with the same amps as the originals due to the slightly warmer tuning.  Like too much of a good thing in the case of the 800S and Elise with stock tubes, but its still personal preference.
  
 For me the differences in the 800 and 800S is large enough that I am considering getting a 800S just for the warmer tuning for use on a different amp than what I would use for the 800.  The T1g2 didn't grab my attention enough to want me to get one since its still has some of the original T1 signature which is why the Amiron and Eikon are now on my wish list of want to hear.


----------



## connieflyer

Sounds reasonable ,I haave not heard the  800S, but really like the 800, and while I had the T1 v1 I did like that one as well.  If I am missing much, I don't know it, so sometimes ignorance is bliss.  Just ask @pctazhp he will tell you all about ignorance!


----------



## mordy

After spending more time on the TFK EL11 tubes driving a pair of Valvo EL12 tubes I must say the the hum I observed in the beginning is almost completely gone, and the same for distortion at high volume levels on the Elise. The channel imbalance is also almost gone.
  
 So the whole thing was just a case of burn in.......And I learned that old tubes that don't measure 100% may still be new.
  
 Did you notice a price spike in the EL12N tubes?


----------



## connieflyer

If you want to know about old stuff you have to ask old guys, glad the problems are sorting themselves out.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Sounds reasonable ,I haave not heard the  800S, but really like the 800, and while I had the T1 v1 I did like that one as well.  If I am missing much, I don't know it, so sometimes ignorance is bliss.  Just ask @pctazhp he will tell you all about ignorance!


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Amazing response. I shall pin on you the badge of honor. You shall now contribute to this thread from here on and that's not a choice.


 

 Well, thank you, sir, I feel very honoured!!!
 I shall certainly oblige and choose the unchoosable, since this would have been my first choice anyway


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Well, thank you, sir, I feel very honoured!!!
> I shall certainly oblige and choose the unchoosable, since this would have been my first choice anyway


 
  
 How's the HD800 on Elise? Still running with stock tubes?


----------



## mordy

Hi DL,
  
 On your recommendation I swapped out my pair of Telefunken EL11 drivers for a pair of Valvo EL11 drivers (using Valvo EL12 as powers). The pair I have has oval plates (Philips?) and one tube looks much older than the other other and is also taller. In addition, the internal heater construction looks different. One measures 61% and the other 94%, but they sound the same, including volume.
  
 A very nice combination - can't really tell the difference with the TFKs yet, but there is some difference. Everything sound just right and effortless.
  
 The hum and distortion are gone, but with these "new" tubes there is a slight channel imbalance - waiting for it to go away. Easily corrected with a nudge of my balance control.


----------



## mordy

Here is something interesting - a 1953 double mono Grundig tube amplifier with two separate power cords for each side.
  




  




  




  
 It uses two EL12 tubes + 4 others. Nice wiring.


----------



## Frederick Rea

The concert house with the best acoustics in the world
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWnlBLG6FQ4


----------



## connieflyer

Very nice, interesting place to visit. Saw this while there even more interesting to me at least.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Here is something interesting - a 1953 double mono Grundig tube amplifier with two separate power cords for each side.




Even the seller asks "Selbstbau oder Restauriert?", and I'll have to ask the same, but it looks nice.


----------



## connieflyer

I was wondering if any of the members here use a Dap with the Elise amp as a source. I am looking to get a nice one and wondered if anyone had used one successfully.  Have been looking at the Astell-Kern line.  Thanks CF


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I was wondering if any of the members here use a Dap with the Elise amp as a source. I am looking to get a nice one and wondered if anyone had used one successfully.  Have been looking at the Astell-Kern line.  Thanks CF


 
 I've played FLAC files from my Fiio X3 and X5. Both work well but I used them as a digital source to my M-DAC, not directly from the line-outs into Elise.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks Howie I was planning on using the line outs it has a Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC which should work quite well.  Have a bit more research but looking to simplify system.


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,
  
 Found these recordings which are said to be first ones recorded in the new Elbphilharmonic hall:


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> How's the HD800 on Elise? Still running with stock tubes?




Yeah, kind of... still trying to achieve a final evaluation of the stock setting against the Philips 6080s and the PsVanes but as a matter of fact, as much as I'd love to delve into this matter head over heals, my personal schedule just doesn't allow it right now.... but I'm working on it... and you can rest assured that I will share each and every step on my journey alongside the Elise with this group - take that as a warning, a threat, or both 

That being said, I kind of struggle to find a decent available selection of tubes being sold over here in Germany.... there is tubeampdoctor.com were I bought the PsVanes separately, the only other matching tubes they seem to sell are the CV181 T-Mii and a few Sylvanias.... but I'm having a hard time finding other sources....
Hypnos1 mentioned an ebay-vendor called "roehrenfritze" many posts ago, but I can't seem to find him...
Sometimes I stumble over some Telefunken 6080s that are fairly cheap...are they worth getting?
Hm, still have to do a lot more research...


----------



## HPLobster

frederick rea said:


> The concert house with the best acoustics in the world
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWnlBLG6FQ4







connieflyer said:


> Very nice, interesting place to visit. Saw this while there even more interesting to me at least.





Hehe, for someone living in Hamburg it's still pretty strange that this finally got declared open and someone is mentioning it after all this years...

I don't mean to brag but I got hold of tickets for the Avishai Cohen Trio and the Tindersticks playing in the Elbphilharmonie next season....will post footage of it here in time...


----------



## HPLobster

If someone wants to visit Hamburg or the Elbphilharmonie, feel free to write me first, maybe I can be of help


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Thanks Howie I was planning on using the line outs it has a Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC which should work quite well.  Have a bit more research but looking to simplify system.


 
 It does simplify things and the sound is surprisingly good too. The Astell-Kerns have an excellent reputation.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Sometimes I stumble over some *Telefunken 6080s* that are fairly cheap...are they worth getting?
> Hm, still have to do a lot more research...


 
  
 I used to prefer 6AS7 for their fuller, warmer and lusher tone but these days I'm digging 6080s for their sharper more defined tone, particularly Bendix 6080wb. If you're like me, you might like the Telefunken 6080 but I have not heard that particular 6080.
  
 Outside of the conventional tubes, I particularly like EL12N. Paired with a sweet sounding 6SN7 such as Sylvania and hear the robins sing.


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> Yeah, kind of... still trying to achieve a final evaluation of the stock setting against the Philips 6080s and the PsVanes but as a matter of fact, as much as I'd love to delve into this matter head over heals, my personal schedule just doesn't allow it right now.... but I'm working on it... and you can rest assured that I will share each and every step on my journey alongside the Elise with this group - take that as a warning, a threat, or both
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have a memory that we have discussed Telefunken 6080 in the dim and too distant past for me to properly remember and they were not thought to be very good. ? too bright or thin? You would need to double check the Threads if you have time or Web-search. Doubtless others' recall will be better than mine.
  
 Also, I think 'Telefunken' can sometimes be re-brands, but can't remember whose re-brands.
  
 As far as sellers go I personally almost always use eBay as it's so easy to pay with PayPal and you have extra security too.
  
 I look for the tube first rather than the seller. As long as the seller permits refunds and, when purchasing from outside Europe, the UK VAT + £8 Royal Mail processing fee isn't going to be prohibitively expensive, I'm happy to order.
  
 I've had the very occasional bad tube, but mercifully only one bad seller in three years and was refunded, fuss-free, by eBay.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> I have a memory that we have discussed Telefunken 6080 in the dim and too distant past for me to properly remember and they were not thought to be very good. ? too bright or thin? You would need to double check the Threads if you have time or Web-search. Doubtless others' recall will be better than mine.
> 
> Also, I think 'Telefunken' can sometimes be re-brands, but can't remember whose re-brands.




This and the following posts cover the rebrand part:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/1665#post_11750496

I'd welcome reports about genuine Tfk 6080s.


----------



## pctazhp

It's a little slow right now, so I'll offer this for those who, like me, remember (or try to forget) a few too many Sunday mornings like this, and are eternally grateful they are in the far distant past.
  
 @connieflyer: It was all the damn nurses' fault 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 Today I've been listening to Sylvania 6SN7WGT/GEC6AS7G and enjoying it a lot.


----------



## richard89

Does anyone have tips to remove the EL12N from the adapter? I'm scared to break the tube since it's so thin at the bottom. Thanks


----------



## mordy

Hi R89,
 The same way you click it in, pull it out. Just pull straight out, no need to roll the tube back and forth. Also remember to hold the tube by the base and not by the glass,
  
 When you do it a few times the adapter gets a little less tight and it goes easier.
  
 Good luck!
  
 Edit: The above goes for the EL12. Just practiced on an EL12N where the base is much thinner. Here you grab the coin base and you may need to rock it slightly back and forth while pulling.


----------



## mordy

Today i received a Tungsram EL12. This is a beautiful, tall, slender tube, about 1/2 inch taller than the Valvos. Peeking inside I saw an oval plate. Tried to do a little research on the Tungsram company. This is a very old prominent Hungarian company with a long and successful prewar history, but could not find out much about vacuum tube production. In the beginning they were very big in making light bulbs and improved on Edison's carbon filament, using *Tungs*ten and Wolf*ram* - hence the name of the company.
  
 My tube has no markings except for Tungsram EL12. No date or factory codes at all. Anonymous Magyar. It sounds very nice, but I only have one ATM and need to confirm with a pair.
  

  

 This afternoon was one of those days when all the EL11/EL12 tube combinations I tried did not sound right. Channel imbalance, one side sounded too thin etc. Granted, all the tubes I bought  are odds and ends, but today wasn't the day, mainly because of the temperamental EL12 ST tubes.
  
 I gave up.
  
 Then I plopped in my trusty pair of 1940's TFK EL11 tubes using the Bendix 6080WB as powers and become mesmerized by the sweet sound. Exquisite timbre and truly enjoyable.


----------



## Spork67

The closest I get to rolling tubes ATM. 
 Only wanted the 2 Hitachi's to replace the tubes in my T1, due to no idea how much life is left in them.
 Only $32 (AUD) pp for the three.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm looking forward to the Sydney Can Con 2017. I'm bringing Euforia and La Figaro 339 to the meet. I hope there's enough time to burn in Euforia. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 There are some gear there that I'm looking forward to listening. Schitt Mjolnir 2,  Stax Lambda Pro, Chord Hugo TT and LCD 3 particularly. Also I'd like to have a good listen to HD800 and HD800S again..... on Euforia.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/832710/can-con-sydney-australia-7-0


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I'm looking forward to the Sydney Can Con 2017. I'm bringing Euforia and La Figaro 339 to the meet. I hope there's enough time to burn in Euforia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sounds good UT...let's hope all your ELs are behaving themselves lol!!! It really is a great shame some of the 11s, 12s and 11/12 combos are proving temperamental (and possibly the occasional adapter)...when all is well the 11/12s are certainly surpassing (by far!) any others I've enjoyed to date - either in Elise or now my Euforia (but then, I count myself fortunate that I can adapt my own tubes; have the _*mesh*_-plate EL11s + a mesh EL3N*G*; the EL12 'Spezial'...and perhaps a good dose of luck LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I so wish everyone could experience what then comes out of my T1s...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 Re. the cans...*don't forget the Utopias lol!!!*





...CHEERS!...


----------



## HOWIE13

I think it's worth repeating that when purchasing these wonderful old EL11/12 tubes, unless they are clearly marked NOS/NIB, make sure the seller provides an emission figure which is at least 75% of expected for the tester being used.
  
 I suspect a lot of our initial problems with the coke bottle shaped tubes were because some old German testers claim these tubes are 'usable' or even 'gut' when they only have 19% to 30% emission, which might be fine in some applications, but is generally regarded as a very low figure for modern HiFi equipment.
  
 Fortunately, most straight bottled EL12*N* tubes on the market at present are NOS, or fairly new, and generally appear reliable.
  
 None of these precautions precludes a problem of course- it's just being prudent to have a reasonably strong tube.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> I think it's worth repeating that when purchasing these wonderful old EL11/12 tubes, unless they are clearly marked NOS/NIB, make sure the seller provides an emission figure which is at least 75% of expected for the tester being used.
> 
> I suspect a lot of our initial problems with the coke bottle shaped tubes were because some old German testers claim these tubes are 'usable' or even 'gut' when they only have 19% to 30% emission, which might be fine in some applications, but is generally regarded as a very low figure for modern HiFi equipment.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Agree with you entirely, H13...many very old tubes do, unfortunately, have rather a bad reputation for reliability, and so it really does pay dividends to 'play safe' and go only for what are more _likely_ (not guaranteed!!) to be less troublesome IMHO. This way, I personally have had very few disappointing experiences, and is certainly worthwhile when extremely good sounding tubes are involved...as always in life - or, rather, _usually!!_ - _*you get what you pay for LOL!!*_









...(unless _extremely_ lucky, of course...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Agree with you entirely, H13...many very old tubes do, unfortunately, have rather a bad reputation for reliability, and so it really does pay dividends to 'play safe' and go only for what are more _likely_ (not guaranteed!!) to be less troublesome IMHO. This way, I personally have had very few disappointing experiences, and is certainly worthwhile when extremely good sounding tubes are involved...as always in life - or, rather, _usually!!_ - _*you get what you pay for LOL!!*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's how I feel H1, though I accept that it's certainly possible to be over cautious as far as test results are concerned. It's just that rather more than anticipated of these old coke bottle shaped EL11/12 tubes have been dodgy. I do get the feeling though that the ones being bought recently have performed better. Maybe we already bought up all the bad ones!
 Still, best to minimise any possible risk.
 I've been fine with my four NOS EL12spez's, though. 
  
 Now we really have to get to Lavenham-you with Euforia and EL11 meshes and me with Elise and EL12 meshes-only problem is I only have one, I still need to source another EL12 mesh. That will probably take me a couple of years.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Sounds good UT..*.let's hope all your ELs are behaving themselves lol!!!* It really is a great shame some of the 11s, 12s and 11/12 combos are proving temperamental (and possibly the occasional adapter)...when all is well the 11/12s are certainly surpassing (by far!) any others I've enjoyed to date - either in Elise or now my Euforia (but then, I count myself fortunate that I can adapt my own tubes; have the _*mesh*_-plate EL11s + a mesh EL3N*G*; the EL12 'Spezial'...and perhaps a good dose of luck LOL!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have to really consider what tubes will be used at the Sydney meet. Can't have any humming tubes or even ones without the blackest black and deadly silence when no music is playing. First impression of Euforia to the public must be presented in the best possible way. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I might even run it with the stock Psvane 6SN7 and Svetlana 6H13C. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I don't see any Utopias listed there yet. I'm hoping that the Blue Hawaii and Stax headphones will make an appearance again. I heard a Sennheiser representative might be there. Let's hope he will bring along the Orpheus. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Ps... 5 more days before my Euforia ship. The anticipation is building.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> I used to prefer 6AS7 for their fuller, warmer and lusher tone but these days I'm digging 6080s for their sharper more defined tone, particularly Bendix 6080wb. If you're like me, you might like the Telefunken 6080 but I have not heard that particular 6080.
> 
> Outside of the conventional tubes, I particularly like EL12N. Paired with a sweet sounding 6SN7 such as Sylvania and hear the robins sing.


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> I have a memory that we have discussed Telefunken 6080 in the dim and too distant past for me to properly remember and they were not thought to be very good. ? too bright or thin? You would need to double check the Threads if you have time or Web-search. Doubtless others' recall will be better than mine.
> 
> Also, I think 'Telefunken' can sometimes be re-brands, but can't remember whose re-brands.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thank you guys, this is very helpful! I am trying to establish my kind of "starting point"-sound very thoroughly, before deciding to evolve into a certain direction.
 　
 After further (not final) comparison, it seems that I still clearly prefer the stock 6AS7-Svetlanas over the Philips 6080s - mostly for the same reasons mentioned above...
 The 6AS7s/6H13Cs sound spacious/wide, with a good amount of clarity and resolution, smooth but without losing out on the treble, IMHO with excellent bass, detailed enough mids....
 The 6080s sounds a little stringent in comparison, focused and clean with a lack of stage, less bass, smooth treble, some would say "polite", probably a tad more detailed. However, at least they are dead silent - something the 6H13C definitely aren´t, as I mentioned before. Taking your comments into consideration, this makes the Telefunken 6080s (and probably other 6080s for now) pretty much obsolete for me...
 　
 As for the Psvane 6SN7s,  the TungSol-stocks simply are no match for them... pretty much better in every aspect. As the Tung-Sol 6AS7GTB seemed a little too much on the bright side, this résumé is especially true for the combination with the HD 800...
 I won´t exchange these any time soon (well, let´s see how THIS grandiose purpose turns out... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







), maybe someday I´ll go for the Psvane CV181-TMkii...
  
 For now, I´m trying to announce a two-week "chill-out-and-enjoy-listening-to-stuff" - stage.....before starting to look out for a potential Svetlana-successor....


----------



## Oskari

HPL, the Philips 6080 you mention, is that Philips ECG (a US tube) or Philips (made by Mullard)?


----------



## Frederick Rea

https://youtu.be/3_5MnvCUvDU


----------



## HPLobster

oskari said:


> HPL, the Philips 6080 you mention, is that Philips ECG (a US tube) or Philips (made by Mullard)?




Sorry, I didn't know there were more of them  I'm talking about the PhilipsECG JAN 6080WC (USA).


----------



## mordy

Here is my latest set-up from tubes received today:
  
  

  
 Five points if you can identify the tube types. Hint:

```
[left] Wolkenkratzer Plattfuß [/left]
```
  
 OK, another hint: Total current draw is 4.4A
  
 First impression (and don't hold me to it):
  
*EL12 on steroids.*
  
 And this concludes today's OTT segment.....


----------



## DecentLevi

Not sure Mordy, but those really look similar to EL34 tubes - though I thought those aren't compatible with Elise


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> *EL12 on steroids.*




EL6?

Tubular EL11?


----------



## mordy

*And the prize goes to Oskari for getting everything right! *
  
*CONGRATULATIONS!*
  

```
[left] Wolkenkratzer Skyscraper Plattfuß Flatfooted (side contact base - same as EL3N)[/left]
```
  
 The tubular EL11s are Telefunken, and the EL6 are a Valvo and to be determined. I also got a Philips Miniwatt in red.


----------



## Oskari

Thanks!

EL6. Ever enterprising.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 A long time ago I suggested the EL11 and it was rejected because of the different base.
  
 This time I looked up on the Radiomuseum which tubes are equivalent to the EL12 and when I saw that the EL6 could use the same adapter as the EL3N I decided to try it. The EL6 is almost identical to the EL12 except for that it is rated 1.3A.
  
 So far my impressions are very favorable, but I cannot let the youthful enthusiasm of a septuagenarian carry me away, and I have to be mindful of H1 and not be OTT, so I will be very restrained in my words until I have more experience with these tubes.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello all, an update on my Valvo EL11 + Valvo EL12 / 375 (ST-shaped) tube setup, after fairly extensive testing...
  

  
  
Valvo EL11 + Valvo EL12 / 375 sound impressions  _*(when it is coming out right)*_
 I can tell you with absolutely no doubt this is the best sound I've ever gotten out of my Elise, period. This combo is no slouch in any way and is completely free of faults. Realism in spades, impact in droves, perfectly linear tonality and FR, spot on imaging and soundstage, thunderous bass when called for, highs that are very realistic yet not fatiguing... perfectly balanced, refined, proper in every way, and well... a very 'mature' sound. Compared to other 'EL13' setups such as with EL12N, RFT EL11, Telefunken EL12, etc. this makes the others sound bright or 'forced' in some way, whereas with this, everything sounds well controlled, weighty, well textured and nothing over/under-done in any way... with both my HD-650 and HD-600's.
  
 Furthermore through extensive comparisons against all my top power / driver tubes including rare 'premium' tubes, I have concluded that both Valvo EL12 /375's are my best performing / favorite all time power tubes, and Valvo EL11 are my best performing / favorite power tubes of all time as well. Both are extremely balanced, refined, etc. as noted above, but it's especially magic when paired together.
  
*However *as most of you know, I'm also getting a channel imbalance and volume break-up of loud levels on my system.
  
Troubleshooting Per advice from Mordy, I've given this combo a good burn-in of almost 40 hours with music playing. In short, this has yielded 0 improvement. The first two days I was actually receiving an even worse imbalance towards the end of burn-in with more distortion, then after removing the EL11's and powering off the amp for around 4 hours the imbalance seemed to go down to around 10% the first hour of so. However now finally after the 4th day of burn-in, it seems the issue on this system-specific setup is set in stone, at close to a whopping 30% channel imbalance!
  
 How do I determine such a precise number? Firstly running a mono signal into the Elise and listening to different portions of a song to compensate for any possible hearing variations of different frequencies, while I adjust an internal balance control until both channels sound equally loud. Then I switch my headphone orientation R/L to further negate any possible hearing variance and switch it back again, so I can be certain the percent of imbalance is fairly accurate.
  
 Also as I have confirmed numerous times since owning the Valvo EL11 + Valvo EL12 / 375, neither set of EL11's or EL12's have any imbalance whatsoever when paired with any other drivers / powers (including 'sotck' tubes, other EL11 / EL12's, etc.), with the sole exception as noted below - but when paired together, there is an imbalance.
  
Background After dealing with two Valvo EL12's that were 'dead on arrival', was able to catch a glimpse of a very solid performer of a power tube during the brief moments I got sound. Luckily I was able to source another pair of these EL12 / 375's that were in mint condition and flawlessly matched, with even the same date code. From there I've determined these EL12 / 375's to be my favorite all time powers. Then later incoming were my Valvo EL11 tubes one at a time. The first one was in excellent condition, possibly NOS, and the 2nd one had noticeable signs of wear and had actually lit up brighter and gotten slightly hotter than the other. However as with the EL12's these too had an equally balanced volume when paired with any other tubes.
  
Theories Here are my thoughts on the reason for this failure. 
 First it would seem that a possible culprit could have something to do with the fact that my EL11's are not perfectly matched. One seems more burned-in, glows brighter and gets hotter than the other which seems NOS. However the fact that these are perfectly balanced when used with any other power tubes means something doesn't add up. 
  
 Onto what I believe to be the most likely culprit: synergy issues with Elise. Being that the Elise is designed for 6AS7 / 6SN7 tubes and these are triode-strapped pentodes which were said by the manufacturer to throw the operating points all over the place, I believe this may be an auto-bias issue. Something about this exact setup seems to be causing an error with the Elise where it can't figure out how to properly auto-bias this exact tube combination, leaving one channel pumping out more volume than the other. 
  
 This would also seem to be the most likely cause of the other tube combo which has been exhibiting a very similar issue: Valvo EL12 / 375 + 6N23P (miniature tubes via an ECC88 adapter) also causes an approximate 10% volume imbalance.
  
 The one thing both these combos have in common is that they are not officially endorsed, somewhat 'outside the box' combos with imperfect operating points. The above combo is different than my Valvo imbalance however with this combo, both driver and power tubes are completely 100% identically matched.
  
Solutions While it's not clear whether this is a compatibility issue and/or a tube issue, it would interest me to try another pair of Valvo EL11's that are perfectly matched, so will keep an eye out for another pair if so lucky enough to find one. Otherwise perhaps my upcoming Euforia amp may end up correcting whatever internal compatibility issue this combination caused.
  
 Of course I could just compensate with the balance controls of my PC, however I have a theory this would also negatively effect things like dynamics, soundstage, etc., and with bit-perfect DSD mode that isn't possible.
  
Disclaimers 1. This post is not meant to mislead anybody that _all _EL12 + EL11 combinations will cause an imbalance + distortion on your Elise, but rather seems very _system-dependent, _and especially with this exact combination and/or condition of EL11's. 
  
 2.This is only IMO, and I don't proclaim this to be the 'best ever' since I've not tried the mesh-plate or the Spez versions yet.
  
 3. While this is my favorite overall combo, there are times when I still prefer the dynamics / forwardness etc. of miniature drivers, or the soundstage, added warmth, etc. of other powers as well.
  
 4. I am not _officially _recommending any EL11 or EL12 tubes.
  
Conclusion I love this combo to bits, but it's driving me mad that I can't get it to work properly, so somebody please save me before I smash it to bits, LOL


----------



## musickid

for beyer dt880 600 ohm is espressivo better as its a otl amp as opposed to elise which isn't. would espressivo pair well with a high end dac like gunjnir multibit. cant decide if espressivo plus top range dac is better than elise with lower spec dac. leaning towards 1st option


----------



## DecentLevi

While I haven't heard the Espressivo, I'd strongly recommend a higher spec amp such as Elise or Euforia to make the most out of a TOTL beast of a DAC as the 'Gumby'. But maybe Howie knows which one pairs best with that particular headphone, being that he's got both amps


----------



## musickid

my budget stretches to espressivo plus gumby. i cant see how anything wrong could happen here. ideally elise but thats beyond my income unless i downgrade dac which i dont want to


----------



## DecentLevi

In that case I would recommend getting the Mimby (modi 2 Multibit) DAC for 1/5th the cost of Gumby and then you can afford the Elise or Euforia. I've tried both and I'd recon the Mimby is _at least_ 60%*+* as good as the Gumby, which can get you along quite well until if / when you ever decide to upgrade DAC's.


----------



## DecentLevi

@musickid, "60%" was just a conservative number I threw out there, because I've yet to do a direct comparison of the Mimby to the Gumby. I will tell you though that it is performing with such extraordinary finesse, especially for such a tiny little DAC, that I've currently put plans to upgrade to the big Holo Audio Spring multi-thousand dollar DAC as the lowest priority for now; and that I actually prefer the Mimby _much_ more than my $700 Delta-Sigma DAC, and more than the Bimby (Bifrost multibit) which I've also evaluated - though the sonic performance of my Mimby has been boosted by a USB signal cleaner / reclocker and USB component: Wyrd + Singxer SU-1 which go between the PC and the DAC.


----------



## musickid

I sold my mimby to pursue gumby. i feel contradicting what some say that a good amp plus excellent dac will outperform the reverse. an amp can amplify whats its fed only. i do understand the need for clean and dynamic amps though


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Here is my latest set-up from tubes received today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Very exciting, mordy. Looking forward to your updates on how they perform.
  
 There's hardly any EL6's available unfortunately, and they are very expensive. There's a tall straight bottle variety and a spez version too.


----------



## HOWIE13

musickid said:


> I sold my mimby to pursue gumby. i feel contradicting what some say that a good amp plus excellent dac will outperform the reverse. an amp can amplify whats its fed only. i do understand the need for clean and dynamic amps though


 
 I use Mimby and it's very good with Espressivo. Mojo and M-DAC are very good too. A good DAC should be fine with a good amp and visa versa.
  
 When you sent your PM to me you didn't mention you were using a DT880 600ohm headphone and my prediction is that Elise will scale up better than Espressivo. You also have more tube rolling capability with Elise to fine-tune the sound.
  
 I have the 250ohm version of the DT880 and I find it's hungry for power.


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi
  
 I would stop agonising and use that balance control when you can.
  
 I find many older remastered recordings poorly balanced and using a balance control brings the stereo image into focus and actually improves perceived dynamics and sound-stage.


----------



## UntilThen

musickid said:


> for beyer dt880 600 ohm* is espressivo better as its a otl amp as opposed to elise which isn't.* would espressivo pair well with a high end dac like gunjnir multibit. cant decide if espressivo plus top range dac is better than elise with lower spec dac. leaning towards 1st option


 
  
 Both Elise and Euforia are OTL amps.


----------



## UntilThen

musickid said:


> *my budget stretches to espressivo plus gumby. i cant see how anything wrong could happen here*. ideally elise but thats beyond my income unless i downgrade dac which i dont want to


 
  
 Nothing wrong with that. If that please you, go for it.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Here is my latest set-up from tubes received today:
> 
> Five points if you can identify the tube types. Hint:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Enjoy Mordy. Elise has evolve and FA certainly are amazed themselves that she is so adaptable. 
  
 I'm winding down on my tubes purchase and this mighty mouse might be my very last purchase. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It's a Mullard EF80 from Langrex. It is such a good and cheap driver for La Figaro 339.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Valvo EL11 + Valvo EL12 / 375 sound impressions  _*(when it is coming out right)*_
> I can tell you with absolutely no doubt this is the best sound I've ever gotten out of my Elise, period.
> 
> Conclusion I love this combo to bits, but it's driving me mad that I can't get it to work properly, so somebody please save me before I smash it to bits, LOL


 
  
 A great intro but the conclusion is kind of an anti-climax. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Don't stress it. Elise sounds great with conventional tubes too.


----------



## UntilThen

Using my Telefunken EL11 and EL12 again today, after a day's rest yesterday. I really miss the tone. It's really good. No interference or hum too. Certainly very balanced.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I'm winding down on my tubes purchase and this mighty mouse might be my very last purchase.




Tell me about it. Set of EL12Ns ordered.


----------



## pctazhp

musickid said:


> my budget stretches to espressivo plus gumby. i cant see how anything wrong could happen here. ideally elise but thats beyond my income unless i downgrade dac which i dont want to


 

 The gimby is about $600 more than the BiFrost which I have. The main thing you are paying for in the gimby is balanced circuitry which you can't use with either Espresivo or Elise. I've been using the BiFrost for over a year with Elise and I'm thrilled with it. I personally would go with Elise and Bimby.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> That's how I feel H1, though I accept that it's certainly possible to be over cautious as far as test results are concerned. It's just that rather more than anticipated of these old coke bottle shaped EL11/12 tubes have been dodgy. I do get the feeling though that the ones being bought recently have performed better. Maybe we already bought up all the bad ones!
> Still, best to minimise any possible risk.
> I've been fine with my four NOS EL12spez's, though.
> 
> Now we really have to get to Lavenham-you with Euforia and EL11 meshes and me with Elise and EL12 meshes-only problem is I only have one, I still need to source another EL12 mesh. That will probably take me a couple of years.


 
  
 Couple of years, H13?...probably more like TEN, if you're lucky lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. So in the meantime, perhaps you'll have more luck getting that wedding date changed so you can come and hear what I keep eulogising about at the MK meet in April!...hope you can mange it LOL...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


untilthen said:


> I have to really consider what tubes will be used at the Sydney meet. Can't have any humming tubes or even ones without the blackest black and deadly silence when no music is playing. First impression of Euforia to the public must be presented in the best possible way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I hear you re. showcasing a Humphrey Euforia...but hopefully you'll have time to see which of your very _*best*_ _*of the best*_ stock configuration tubes perform black as night...this amp's potential goes *WAY* beyond the included tubes lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







....(excellent though stock sound is...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  


musickid said:


> I sold my mimby to pursue gumby. i feel contradicting what some say that a good amp plus excellent dac will outperform the reverse. *an amp can amplify whats its fed only*. i do understand the need for clean and dynamic amps though


 
  
 Hi musickid...aahhh...here's the rub - chicken or egg lol?!!! The reverse will, as you touched on, be true also of course. "Good" and "excellent" are often purely _relative_ terms when it comes to equipment _synergy_. As already mentioned, Elise has more potential, not just of itself but with regard to the tubes that can be used...some of which take the amp a good deal higher than stock. The differences between modern (reasonably affordable!) DACs are far narrower than they were only recently, which changes the ballpark somewhat....in favour of a better quality amp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Also, of course, the question is always whether to invest more heavily now, and thus be more "futureproof" (not to mention enjoying higher quality straight away), or remain strictly to a lower budget?....very difficult decisions indeed when not a millionaire lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And only you can decide that, of course...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(sorry to have to pass the buck!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...but good luck with whatever choices you make - Feliks-Audio do make _exceedingly_ good amps all round...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## richdytch

Hi all, 
  
 Well I've been keeping an eye on the thread for a while now even if I had nothing to say. But I can confirm that I'm dipping my toe into the EL12 pool - this morning I ordered a pair of RFT EL3N - humble examples of the genre I'm sure, but should be a refreshing change for me. 
  
 That said, I'm hardly feeling any improvements are necessary at the moment. This morning, in idle curiosity I placed my redundant Jensen line level transformer between my 2qute DAC and the Elise. Lordy. What a difference - 90% of the issues which had been nagging me have gone away. It sounded ok before, but this is proving to be a huge change. Everything sounds rather more effortless than before, and smoother. Bass is fuller and doesn't seem to run out energy. The unpleasant edges which I used to hear on recordings of saxaphones, have diminished. It's quite mad really. On orchestral recordings, the whole thing sounds more live .... there's a lot more feeling of being in the room. And indeed, you can hear the room better - the natural reverb seems more distinct, part of the music. 
  
 I really wasn't expecting this - I got the transformer to cure a ground loop which turned out not to exist. I only thought I'd stick it between the DAC and Elise to see how much it degraded the sound -  - I was about to list it on ebay. But actually it's a big help!
  
 Rich


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Couple of years, H13?...probably more like TEN, if you're lucky lol!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 OMG- I can't imagine how much these tubes will cost in ten years time -I'll probably be too senile by then to care anymore, anyway
  
 I'm hoping to come to Milton Keynes but not sure yet. 
  
 However, I'm almost certainly coming to London in July. So hope to meet up at one of those.


----------



## hypnos1

richdytch said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Well I've been keeping an eye on the thread for a while now even if I had nothing to say. But I can confirm that I'm dipping my toe into the EL12 pool - this morning I ordered a pair of* RFT EL3N* - humble examples of the genre I'm sure, but should be a refreshing change for me.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Rich...good to hear from you!...did you mean RFT EL*12N*, perchance lol?!...ie. as _powers_...they really are extremely good for the (reasonable) money!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hope you like them...
  
 And that is good - if rather strange - news about your 'remedy'...well done!


----------



## richdytch

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Rich...good to hear from you!...did you mean RFT EL*12N*, perchance lol?!...ie. as _powers_...they really are extremely good for the (reasonable) money!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hi Hypnos - whoops! yes, I meant EL12N  Apologies, I'm so used to typing EL3N that it came out automatically    Plus, the only time I ever really come and write anything on here is when I'm at work, so I always have plenty of other stuff going on in my mind. Please rest assured, my work is of a higher quality than my posts on here 
  
 Yup, didn't realise I needed a rememedy, but there you go. I'm currently listening to albums I used to find harsh and edgy, and hearing them anew. And with albums which I listen to frequently, and which already sounded good on my system, I'm hearing new things I'd not heard before.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Hi Hypnos - whoops! yes, I meant EL12N  Apologies, I'm so used to typing EL3N that it came out automatically    Plus, the only time I ever really come and write anything on here is when I'm at work, so I always have plenty of other stuff going on in my mind. Please rest assured, my work is of a higher quality than my posts on here
> 
> Yup, didn't realise I needed a rememedy, but there you go. I'm currently listening to albums I used to find harsh and edgy, and hearing them anew. And with albums which I listen to frequently, and which already sounded good on my system, I'm hearing new things I'd not heard before.


 
 Well done Rich!
  
 The way I think about the EL12N power tubes is that they are able to shine a light on the sonic capabilities of whatever drivers they are paired with.
  
 They shine a light on the music too.
  
 I do hope you will enjoy them.


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> Well done Rich!
> 
> The way I think about the EL12N power tubes is that they are able to shine a light on the sonic capabilities of whatever drivers they are paired with.
> 
> ...


 
  


howie13 said:


> Well done Rich!
> 
> The way I think about the EL12N power tubes is that they are able to shine a light on the sonic capabilities of whatever drivers they are paired with.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Howie and Hypnos. I'm sure I'll enjoy them. It's been a long time since I got any new power tubes, so it'll be nice to have a change and by the sounds of it, a bit of an upgrade.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Tell me about it. Set of EL12Ns ordered.


 
 I don't think you will regret it.


----------



## hypnos1

richdytch said:


> Hi Hypnos - whoops! yes, I meant EL12N  Apologies, I'm so used to typing EL3N that it came out automatically    Plus, the only time I ever really come and write anything on here is when I'm at work, so I always have plenty of other stuff going on in my mind. Please rest assured, my work is of a higher quality than my posts on here
> 
> Yup, didn't realise I needed a rememedy, but there you go. I'm currently listening to albums I used to find harsh and edgy, and hearing them anew. And with albums which I listen to frequently, and which already sounded good on my system,* I'm hearing new things I'd not heard before. *


 
  
 No problem, rich...at least you got the magic "EL" right lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...this family certainly rules the roost in my book (even if they do throw our amps' strict measurements out the window LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. And the fact they run the amps so *cool* has just GOT to be a bonus, given heat is usually the arch enemy of electronics...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 So now you really are in _*full*_ Elise territory...and will most probably hear a good few _more_ new things with those EL12Ns in situ!


----------



## HOWIE13

Talk this morning of Espressivo prompts me to show a photo of her with EL11 power tubes. Sound is excellent. Pictured with ECC88 Mullards:


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Tell me about it. Set of EL12Ns ordered.


 
  
 Well, my dear O...you have been rather frugal for a while now lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...GOOD MAN!...and who knows, we just _might_ tempt you away from those wonderful C3gs into EL11/EL12 'Spezial' territory!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...(but I shan't be betting on it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)...CHEERS!


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Tell me about it. Set of EL12Ns ordered.


 
  
 Well compared to my EL purchase... you have a bit more to catch up on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Bought pair of Telefunken EL11 - US$99
  
 Bought RFT EL12 - US$76 - Dead on arrival - refunded
  
 Bought Telefunken EL12 - US$58 - Dead on arrival - refunded
  
 Bought pair of RFT EL12N - US$42
  
 Bought 4 EL11/12 to 6SN7 adapters from Mrs Xu - US$66
  
 Bought pair of Telefunken EL12 - US$150
  
 Total = US$357 !!!  
 I didn't realise I've already spent a fair bit on EL tubes purchase..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 However RCA 6sn7gt smoke glass with EL12N now sounds very good on 'Brahms Hungarian Dance No. 1 in G Minor' - so it's justified.


----------



## UntilThen

I was listening to this on Tidal HiFi and I was compelled to dig out a Youtube version to share with you.


----------



## richdytch

hypnos1 said:


> No problem, rich...at least you got the magic "EL" right lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm all in favour of cool-running. 





  
 Yup, very excited to be joining the EL12N club once everything arrives. Mrs Xuling's adapters normally seem to take about a week to get to me. The tubes are coming from Germany, so shouldn't take too long.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Well, my dear O...you have been rather frugal for a while now lol!! :wink_face: ...GOOD MAN!...and who knows, we just _might_ tempt you away from those wonderful C3gs into EL11/EL12 'Spezial' territory!!! :rolleyes: :evil: :bigsmile_face: ...(but I shan't be betting on it!   )...CHEERS!




The odds are quite low for the Spezials. 

I've been using EL3N drivers lately. Good stuff. I do miss the _brilliance_ of the C3g/s a bit, though.


----------



## aqsw

I bought 4 EL12Ns from the german seller. One would shut down after a couple minutes. I emailed him and he sent me a new tube immediately. No questions asked.
  
 Good seller IMO.


----------



## myphone

Is it possible to change heater voltage and use 12SN7 tubes in Elise?


----------



## Oskari

richdytch said:


> Yup, very excited to be joining the EL12N club once everything arrives. Mrs Xuling's adapters normally seem to take about a week to get to me. The tubes are coming from Germany, so shouldn't take too long.




We're in the same boat. :rolleyes:


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> *The odds are quite low for the Spezials.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Shame that, O...'cos those, combined with the EL11s being a bit less "warm" than the 3Ns,  bring a bit more of that C3g sparkle...but with added sweetness (as opposed to 'dilution'), which is no bad thing in my book lol!
  
 However, I look forward to your findings re. the C3g (and EL3N)/EL12N combo....(I really should give my Siemens 'S's a try with the Spezials, but just can't get myself to remove the mesh Valvos, alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 - plus, they_ look_ so nice!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...
  


aqsw said:


> I bought 4 EL12Ns from the german seller. One would shut down after a couple minutes. I emailed him and he sent me a new tube immediately. No questions asked.
> 
> Good seller IMO.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Well compared to my EL purchase... you have a bit more to catch up on.




I'm not even trying. 

The quad of EL12Ns was about €54 (including vat and p&p; depending on one's location, of course). Not too bad. It is my M.O. to purchase spares as well when the tubes are as affordable as these are.


----------



## aqsw

oskari said:


> We're in the same boat.


 
 I'm running the EL12N powers with EL3n drivers on my Elise. Best I've heard from that amp. Starts distorting at about 2 oclock, but that's too high a volume for me anyways.


----------



## Oskari

myphone said:


> Is it possible to change heater voltage and use 12SN7 tubes in Elise?




I don't think so, or we don't know about it. An external heating power source could be used. But does one want to?


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Shame that, O...'cos those, combined with the EL11s being a bit less "warm" than the 3Ns,  bring a bit more of that C3g sparkle...but with added sweetness (as opposed to 'dilution'), which is no bad thing in my book lol!




No pushing!


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> No pushing!


 
  
 OK...promise...(
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...
  
 zzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I don't think so, or we don't know about it. An external heating power source could be used. But does one want to?




No 

It's a fantasy of the past and forgotten.


----------



## mordy

Hi myphone,
  
 It is possible to use tubes of different voltage in the Elise. In the past I have tried 8V and 12V tubes. You need an external power supply, a voltage regulator and special adapters that disconnect the heater leads from the Elise and connect to the external voltage source.
  
 It was interesting to try, but with all the wonderful tubes available that do not require an external voltage source I do not see the need to use non standard tubes for the Elise.
  
 The only thing on my mind is that I would like to try the round plate Tung Sol 6SN7 but they are very expensive. The same tube in the 12V version (12SN7) is considerably cheaper . A NOS boxed pair can go for upwards of $600 (!), whereas the same pair in the 12V version might sell for less than a third of that if in perfect NOS condition - around $170. If you go for used tubes you can bring it down much further (even for the 6SN7).
  
 Bottom line: Not worth the bother and effort. The much less expensive EL3N or EL11 tubes do a great job.


----------



## myphone

Thank you all for your input. The reason I asked is that I have many different 6SN7 (5692) and 12SN7 (RCA 12SX7) tubes. 12SX7 is supposed to be one of the best in 6SN7/12SN7 family. I have used 12SX7 tubes (replacing 6SN7) in Atma-Sphere OTL amps, by simply changing heater connections. Atma-sphere amp's transformer has both 6-volt and 12-volt wiring tags.  It was very difficult to use 12SX7 in Atma-sphere pre-amp. AS pre-amps only have 6-volt heater out.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I'm running the EL12N powers with EL3n drivers on my Elise. Best I've heard from that amp. Starts distorting at about 2 oclock, but that's too high a volume for me anyways.


 
  
 Start of the weekend. I shall be rolling in the deep again with these tubes. Starting with Telefunken EL11 and RFT EL12N. These sound holographic. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Certainly will be trying EL3N and EL12N  again.


----------



## richdytch

Off the back of my experimental addition of a transformer into my signal chain, I'd like to summarise a few points, since I believe they are highly relevant, or at least could be, to users of the Elise. I'm gathering that most or all of you use an external DAC connected to the Elise by RCA leads. 
  
 I don't believe I'm one for extravagant claims about improvements in sound quality, but this has really knocked my socks off. The subjective improvements I'm experiencing in a system which I already found highly listenable, are:
  
 • reduced sibilance
 • much clearer treble
 • greatly increased transparency
 • much, much wider soundstage
 • increased depth
 • much firmer and fuller bass
 • silkier midrange
 • an overall sense of effortlessness
  
 I know that many of those phenomena are interrelated - I just wanted to sum up what I'm experiencing. 
  
 Most of the opinions I'd sought in the past were in the area of "don't put a transformer in your signal path - it will just degrade the signal". In fact, I only plugged the thing in yesterday to see how badly it _would _degrade the signal. Obviously, the results have been quite the opposite. For me at least. 
  
 I'm totally aware that this might be highly equipment specific - I use a Chord 2qute DAC and it's quite possible that what sounded ok to me previously, was actually a signal path being hindered by impedance mismatch with the Elise. My cursory research would suggest that my transformer is doing the same thing as a DI box, although passively. 
  
 I know there are a few Chord Hugo users out there in Eliseland, so naturally wonder if they could benefit from a similar addition to their system. 
  
 Another thought I've had is that maybe the many people who've previously made what seem like large claims about the sound quality in their systems, might just be people with different DACs, who've never suffered such (apparent) compatability issues as I. But it does seem that people with the Hugo, which is essentially a 2qute with a headphone amp included, are very happy with their sound. 
  
 All very unscientific I know, my formal education in electronics and audio ended when I was aroud 23 (a log time ago) and so I now proceed with that half knowledge and a degree of instinct. I rather thought my system sounded great before, but as for many people, there were slight aspects which nagged at me and I used to consider upgrading speakers, tubes, etc. But no longer. Fr now at least  I know it's still not perfect, but it now seems like a system at peace with itself - having a good time. 
  
 If there's anyone within spitting disctance of Newark in Nottinghamshire, UK, you'd be more than welcome to visit, to hear a comparison.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Rich, do you have a picture? I'm still not sure what you did there.
  
 Is this what you have?
  
 Chord 2qute DAC > Transformer > Elise > headphone?  So what does the transformer do in this instance? A preamp? What brand transformer is it?


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Off the back of my experimental addition of a transformer into my signal chain, I'd like to summarise a few points, since I believe they are highly relevant, or at least could be, to users of the Elise. I'm gathering that most or all of you use an external DAC connected to the Elise by RCA leads.
> 
> I don't believe I'm one for extravagant claims about improvements in sound quality, but this has really knocked my socks off. The subjective improvements I'm experiencing in a system which I already found highly listenable, are:
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Rich
  
 I have no knowledge of electronics and when I web searched the transformer you mentioned yesterday all I saw were some small metal capsules with loads of wires coming out.
 I wouldn't have a clue what to do with those.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I was probably looking at the wrong thing anyway.
  
 Do you have a link to the sort of thing you are referring to? 
  
 Thanks.


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Hi Rich, do you have a picture? I'm still not sure what you did there.
> 
> Is this what you have?
> 
> Chord 2qute DAC > Transformer > Elise > headphone?  So what does the transformer do in this instance? A preamp? What brand transformer is it?


 
 Hi UT, Hi Howie. 
  
 I'm sorry, I really should have given more detail on the actual setup! The transformer is a stereo 1:1 ratio thing in a box, made by Jensen for the purposes of isolation:
  
 http://www.jensen-transformers.com/product/ci-2rr/
  
 And my current setup is: 
  
 2qute -> transformer -> Elise -> power amp -> speakers
  
 Rich


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Hi UT, Hi Howie.
> 
> I'm sorry, I really should have given more detail on the actual setup! The transformer is a stereo 1:1 ratio thing in a box, made by Jensen for the purposes of isolation:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Rich. I have not come across this before. I've never had hum from ground loop on my HiFi, Head-Fi and my 7 grand car sound system.
  
 Call it aussie luck.


----------



## hypnos1

richdytch said:


> Off the back of my experimental addition of a transformer into my signal chain, I'd like to summarise a few points, since I believe they are highly relevant, or at least could be, to users of the Elise. I'm gathering that most or all of you use an external DAC connected to the Elise by RCA leads.
> 
> I don't believe I'm one for extravagant claims about improvements in sound quality, but this has really knocked my socks off. The subjective improvements I'm experiencing in a system which I already found highly listenable, are:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again rich...your experience would seem to reinforce the headfonics reviewer's comment/surprise at the effect of different DACs...so there could well be those who may gain benefit from your own solution, without having to change DACs lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I must admit, I don't notiice any of the area shortcomings you listed - I personally have a custom tube DAC, based on the Sabre 9018 (full version), and everything shines brightly LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And, of course, other elements in the sound chain might also be having a bearing here.
  
 And are your findings the same with headphones as with preamp use?
  
 Can't spit to Newark alas, but will you be coming to the local meet at Milton Keynes in April?....Would be great to compare your setup with my Euforia's lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Thanks Rich. I have not come across this before. I've never had hum from ground loop on my HiFi, Head-Fi and my 7 grand car sound system.
> 
> Call it aussie luck.


 
  
 hehe. Nor have I. But I thought I did, and it led to this. In my case, a happy accident!


----------



## richdytch

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again rich...your experience would seem to reinforce the headfonics reviewer's comment/surprise at the effect of different DACs...so there could well be those who may gain benefit from your own solution, without having to change DACs lol!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Hypnos. I haven't read the Headfonics review, so will dig that out. I've heard very good things about the tube dac, and it'd be great to hear it at the Milton Keynes meet. That weekend, however, is my birthday weekend and my wife has booked us into a cottage in Snowdonia. It was the only time the extended family could fit it in. So I'll have to try and make it to the next one 
  
 I'm not downhearted though. I'll be forgoing the cottage for at least one night to go and camp high up in the mountains. With my Monk earbuds.


----------



## richdytch

I'd also like to take back anything bad I've said about the RCA 6080 in the past. Seeing it in a whole new light right now. A total bargain, as many of you had pointed out before - I just couldn't hear what the fuss was about until now.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi myphone,
> 
> It is possible to use tubes of different voltage in the Elise. In the past I have tried 8V and 12V tubes. You need an external power supply, a voltage regulator and special adapters that disconnect the heater leads from the Elise and connect to the external voltage source.
> 
> ...


 
  
 T-S round plates sound very good in Elise. They are clean, clear, crisp, with sweet highs, delicious mids and well controlled bass. They are tonally very accurate and hard to fault from a 'technical' point of view.
  
 However, after listening to the capacious sound stages and the manner in which the more recent tubes we have been discussing, like EL11/12, illuminate the sound,  the T-S do sound a little bland and un-involving in comparison. 
  
 I loved them in my Ember and Horizon, and for many amps they will remain a premium tube, and command premium prices.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Hi Hypnos. I haven't read the Headfonics review, so will dig that out. I've heard very good things about the tube dac, and it'd be great to hear it at the Milton Keynes meet. That weekend, however, is my birthday weekend and my wife has booked us into a cottage in Snowdonia. It was the only time the extended family could fit it in. So I'll have to try and make it to the next one
> 
> I'm not downhearted though. I'll be forgoing the cottage for at least one night to go and camp high up in the mountains. With my Monk earbuds.


 
 Thanks for the info rich. It looks straightforward enough to set up, even for me.
  
 Just quite expensive and although I have had occasional hums, they have gone with good cleaning of the tube pins so fingers crossed I may not need the transformer-but good to know about it. It's bookmarked!
  
 Enjoy your Snowdonia trip.
  
 I walked up Snowdon a couple of years ago with my daughter. It was well worth the climb to the top with the added attraction of a cafe as well as magnificent views.


----------



## richdytch

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again rich...your experience would seem to reinforce the headfonics reviewer's comment/surprise at the effect of different DACs...so there could well be those who may gain benefit from your own solution, without having to change DACs lol!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hypnos, I forgot to say that yes, I find these benefits also being passed on when using headphones. I'd say the effect isn't quite as dramatic on headphones as it is on speakers, but I'm fairly sure that's down to my speakers being in a totally different league from my cans. HE400 vs PMC 23 isn't really fair competition - the 23s are really incredibly revealing. 

 But even if I only ever used headphones, I'd still be very pleased with the improvement. 
  
 Rich


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> Thanks for the info rich. It looks straightforward enough to set up, even for me.
> 
> Just quite expensive and although I have had occasional hums, they have gone with good cleaning of the tube pins so fingers crossed I may not need the transformer-but good to know about it. It's bookmarked!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Howie, I actually managed to get my Jensen through ebay for a decent price. 
  
 It sounds like your hums are entirely tube-related anyway, and nothing to do with a ground loop. Indeed, my own hum in the end turned out to be nothing related to an earthing issue. 
  
 Seems this kind of 1:1 ratio transformer is used a fair bit to match pieces of equipment. I think the only case in which you'd see an improvement if you used one, would be if your source and DAC were mismatched - wrong output impedance vs input impedance. But that's where my knowledge is running out. I just think if you enjoy your system, and there's nothing nagging away at you, you probably don't need the transformer 
  
 **EDIT** - I should point out that I've also tried this transformer between my tube phono stage (which has op amp buffers) and the Elise, and with it, the sound was worse. 
  
 I have heard from a friend who's into electronics that getting into transformers is more of a slippery slope than tubes. But I'm going to stick with this one. 
  
 Although I do wonder how much the Lundahls are....


----------



## pctazhp

richdytch said:


> I don't believe I'm one for extravagant claims about improvements in sound quality, but this has really knocked my socks off. The subjective improvements I'm experiencing in a system which I already found highly listenable, are:
> 
> • reduced sibilance
> • much clearer treble
> ...


 
   
Rich. I make my living using words, so they are important to me. Just want to say I appreciate your careful choice of words to describe the change you experience. It gives me a decent idea of what you are experiencing.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Thanks Rich. I have not come across this before. I've never had hum from ground loop on my HiFi, Head-Fi and my 7 grand car sound system.
> 
> Call it aussie luck.


 

 I call it the luck of TPWWUD
  


Spoiler: Answer



The People Who Walk Upside Down


 The only reason I did this is I've never used the spoiler alert function, and I couldn't think of a better person to try it on than you


----------



## connieflyer

Just as a counter point, when I was checking for ground loop, I tried one similar to the transformer you used, and it made no improvement at all. tried it for two weeks and sent it back to amazon. I think using something like this is a crap shoot.  If you have a ground loop it helps to troubleshoot the system, and may correct it, but I found no advantage to using one. As always YMMV


----------



## richdytch

pctazhp said:


> Rich. I make my living using words, so they are important to me. Just want to say I appreciate your careful choice of words to describe the change you experience. It gives me a decent idea of what you are experiencing.


 
  
 I try, so thanks for the nod pctazhp.


----------



## richdytch

connieflyer said:


> Just as a counter point, when I was checking for ground loop, I tried one similar to the transformer you used, and it made no improvement at all. tried it for two weeks and sent it back to amazon. I think using something like this is a crap shoot.  If you have a ground loop it helps to troubleshoot the system, and may correct it, but I found no advantage to using one. As always YMMV


 
  
 Hi Connieflyer, I totally agree that it's a lottery. I obviously had equipment which was crying out for this, I didn't even know and tried it out by accident. As I mentioned earlier, there's no improvement applying the same transformer between my phono preamp and the Elise, in fact the sound is less satisfying. 
  
 Rich


----------



## mordy

Found another hum eliminator with good reviews on Amazon for much less money:
  
rolls HE18 Hum Eliminator  

   






  
  
  
 $38 on Amazon - does anybody have experience with this one?


----------



## hypnos1

richdytch said:


> Hi Hypnos. I haven't read the Headfonics review, so will dig that out. I've heard very good things about the tube dac, and it'd be great to hear it at the Milton Keynes meet. That weekend, however, is my birthday weekend and my wife has booked us into a cottage in Snowdonia. It was the only time the extended family could fit it in. So I'll have to try and make it to the next one
> 
> I'm not downhearted though. I'll be forgoing the cottage for at least one night to go and camp high up in the mountains. With my Monk earbuds.


 
  
 That is cruel coincidence, rich...but cottage in Snowdonia with the wife sounds much the better choice actually (sacrilege here, I know!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)..._*weather permitting!!*_...had a wonderful, unforgettable fortnight in the region some years back - about 2 of the only 4 weeks of really good weather the entire year lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 (saw the top of Snowdon most of the days!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Here's wishing you similar good fortune...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## richdytch

hypnos1 said:


> That is cruel coincidence, rich...but cottage in Snowdonia with the wife sounds much the better choice actually (sacrilege here, I know!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks H1! 
  
 Had a wonderful trip last time I went to Snowdonia with a friend. Stayed on this campsite at the foot of Snowden, where you're allowed fires: 
  




  
 Then the next day went up Tryfan: 
  




  
 Then the day after that, Snowden by Crib Goch: 
  




  
 So you might begin to understand why I might get itchy sitting in a cottage with the family, no matter how great they are. Therefore, I'm sneaking off 
  
 Cheers, Rich


----------



## richdytch

mordy said:


> Found another hum eliminator with good reviews on Amazon for much less money:
> 
> rolls HE18 Hum Eliminator
> 
> ...


 
  
 Mordy, I'm told that transformers are as variable as tubes - I'm guessing that there's a reason some of the most sought-after cost silly money.But at $38 at least it wouldn't break the bank.


----------



## hypnos1

richdytch said:


> Thanks H1!
> 
> Had a wonderful trip last time I went to Snowdonia with a friend. Stayed on this campsite at the foot of Snowden, where you're allowed fires:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wonderful pics, Rich...so can understand your mind set - just hope the missus isn't looking over your shoulder lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...GOOD LUCK!!!...


----------



## mordy

When I got the EL6 tubes (EL12 equivalent) I did not fully realize how rare they are. The three I have are all used and measure approximately 70%. One is a Valvo with an obviously previously glued loose base. The next one is a Philips Miniwatt and the third only says EL 12 and nothing else. From the appearance of it I am  guessing that it is a Tungsram.
  
 They all work and sound very good; actually as extremely well behaved EL12 tubes without any idiosyncrasies.
  
 First I tried them (Valvo/Tungsram) with a pair of Telefunken Dynamite Gray EL11 tubes. This resulted in the widest sound  stage I have heard in my system, extending to two feet beyond my speakers on a good recording. The only very minor drawback was a small amount of lack of punch and control in the deepest bass if I want to nitpick. All in all excellent sound.
  
 After the usual struggle of pulling out the Valvo from the side terminal adapter, sweating bullets if the tube is going to break from pulling so hard, it finally relinquished it's grippy clutches and let go.
 Put in the Miniwatt tube - can't hear any difference between the three.
  
 Switched to a pair of EL3N as drivers. Very nice sound with better control and punch in the lowest register, but the sound stage shrank and ended up between the speakers. Well, you can't have everything. The sound is beautiful with the right amount of everything.
  
 On a different note somebody asked if they know anything about the delivery schedule of the Euforia. Based in my previous experience I expect a delay - waited many months for my Elise. Anyhow, Lukasz answered me that the the production is on schedule with a possible slight delay. I had also asked if the Euforia with the upgraded transformer would have more power handling capacity and he answered yes - up to 7A.
  
 I am going to try more drivers with the EL6 tubes because I have a feeling that there may be more great combinations possible.
  
 Cheers


----------



## UntilThen

Nice pics Rich. Reminds me of the trip to Mt Kinabalu in 2014.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I had also asked if the Euforia with the upgraded transformer would have more power handling capacity and he answered yes - up to 7A.


 
  
 Hehe how did FA know that we would go off the beaten track and would need more power. That means my ECC31 and 5998 is permissible again.
  
  
 .... but with EL12N and EL12 sounding so good who needs ECC31. Yup I'm using EL12N as drivers because it's hum free and pitch black whereas one of my EL11 is a pain in the .... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hoping that H1's adapted silver wire EL11s will change my landscape. @hypnos1 are these mesh plates?


----------



## Oskari

richdytch said:


> Had a wonderful trip last time I went to Snowdonia with a friend. ...




Nice! Here's Königssee from Jenner.


----------



## richdytch

oskari said:


> Nice! Here's Königssee from Jenner.




I should point out that those are not my own photos...Sorry if i misled. Just reached for the first google images of the places we went 

Oskari, UT, I'm full of envy...


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I call it the luck of TPWWUD
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have a spoiler for you.
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Oskari, UT, I'm full of envy...


 
  
 Don't be... I stayed at base camp (which is hotel) while my family made the climb with a guide, over 2 days and reach the summit at 5am on the 2nd day for the most spectacular sunrise. 
  
 Now I wish I had made the climb. Maybe Everest next time...


----------



## hypnos1

Good work @mordy...those EL6s look interesting, but their price not so attractive lol!!
  
 In theory, they are basically an EL3N but with twice the power output...in the same way as the EL12 is to EL11. And _theoretically_, they're all supposed to be the same apart from different bases...but there certainly are differences in the way they sound!! And most would appear to be down to the different shaped plates (anodes) used...ie. the _*oval*_ ones of the Philips design, and the _*round*_ ones of the Telefunken design...(I have covered these differences a good few times already, so I shan't repeat myself lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). And various combinations will undoubtedly throw up some very interesting results...let alone with other drivers added to the equation!....So more projects ahead for enterprising folks, but I myself have definitely now found everything I could ever hope for with my mesh Valvo EL11s and EL12 Spezials, so for me it's just *pure listening enjoyment* from now on...*thank heavens lol!!!*...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Glad you're liking the EL6s....ENJOY!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....


----------



## Oskari

richdytch said:


> I should point out that those are not my own photos...Sorry if i misled. Just reached for the first google images of the places we went
> 
> Oskari, UT, I'm full of envy...




Don't be. I've never been to Snowdonia. :rolleyes:




untilthen said:


> Don't be... I stayed at base camp (which is hotel) while my family made the climb with a guide, over 2 days and reach the summit at 5am on the 2nd day for the most spectacular sunrise.
> 
> Now I wish I had made the climb. Maybe Everest next time... :tongue_smile:




Jenner is easy: you just take the Jennerbahn.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Hehe how did FA know that we would go off the beaten track and would need more power. That means my ECC31 and 5998 is permissible again.
> 
> 
> .... but with EL12N and EL12 sounding so good who needs ECC31. Yup I'm using EL12N as drivers because it's hum free and pitch black whereas one of my EL11 is a pain in the ....
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...must admit I ended up preferring the ECC31 to the EL3N...*BUT*...they run the amp far too hot for my liking, and my EL11s beat them anyway lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Sad to say yours aren't the mesh plates alas...they're _*rarer*_ than Hens' teeth even!!! And I'm afraid you'll have to be content with white ceramic bases...the old ones were on too tight, so couldn't remove them so as to use the brass/gold ones...SORRY!!!...(but at least they'll match the backs a bit better!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). They should be finding their way into your Euforia box pretty soon now, I believe...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and fingers crossed for you...).


----------



## connieflyer

Just got an email from lucasz letting me know that they were going to ship my amp in about 10 days. Oh and a few weeks it might be here. Time will tell


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Just got an email from lucasz letting me know that they were going to ship my amp in about 10 days. Oh and a few weeks it might be here. Time will tell


 
  
 A few _*weeks*_, cf?...didn't know you lived in the outer reaches of Outer Mongolia lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...perhaps @pctazhp might just beat you to it after all, even if Ukraine bound!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(hope you're being WAY over-pessimistic, mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## connieflyer

We're figuring he said it would be shipping in ten days there's a week and a half and to get Stateside over here going to take another week to week and a half so that's two to three weeks.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...must admit I ended up preferring the ECC31 to the EL3N...*BUT*...they run the amp far too hot for my liking, and my EL11s beat them anyway lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 No mesh plates and no gold base???!!!   Hmmmm .... I guess no fish, prawn also can.


----------



## UntilThen

Guess what? I file the pins of my recalcitrant EL11 and the hum went away.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Guess what? I file the pins of my recalcitrant EL11 and the hum went away.


 
  
 Good news UT...that means you won't be wanting those stray dogs lol?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 ps. It gets worse...had to break off one of the pin guides, as it was too wonky, and didn't realise it until too late!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but they do work LOL..._honestly!!_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 pps. I think!!!


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> I have a spoiler for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







untilthen said:


> No mesh plates and no gold base???!!!   Hmmmm .... I guess no fish, prawn also can.




UT is the master of bizarre and unexpected for the night! :rolleyes:


----------



## hypnos1

Hey @UntilThen...all is not lost...just remembered - those EL11s do in fact have the brass/gold bases...been losing track of things lately lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but one is still without pin guide (but clearly marked, so no worries!)...Well not _quite_ lost...they're grey glass, not black...but at least this will match your 12s better! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...still want 'em?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...BFN...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hey @UntilThen...all is not lost...just remembered - those EL11s do in fact have the brass/gold bases...been losing track of things lately lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sure I'll have the prawn. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  or is it a lobster.


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1  these Telefunkens EL11 are now humming again so I will send to you as well. I believe you can make it work. It's the pins contact with the adapters. This particular tube.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1  these Telefunkens EL11 are now humming again so I will send to you as well. I believe you can make it work. It's the pins contact with the adapters. This particular tube.


 
  
 Sorry to hear it's still giving you grief, UT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...will do what I can lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Ooooo these are quite different and special EL11s...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-tubes-EL11-Loewe-and-others-71-24-tested-tubes-/112271151257?hash=item1a23e1d099:g:1cMAAOSw241YfNom




I'm still intrigued by these oddballs. Why do they have to be such a mismatched group?


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> I'm still intrigued by these oddballs. Why do they have to be such a mismatched group?


 
  
 While you're intrigued by those tubes, I'm still intrigued by these 2 amps. After 9 days, it's still neck to neck in resolution, clarity and details.
  
 It's truly a tale of 2 cities. Chengdu and Lubliniec.
  
 Chengdu has a population of 14 million while Lubliniec has only 29,000 thousand. Chengdu surrounding plains is also called the 'Country of Heaven' or the 'Land of Abundance'.  Lubliniec on the other hand, is the birthplace of Elise, the Wonder Woman. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Back to the amps itself. These amps has not failed to please me -_* immensely*_. Luscious, engaging and captivating. The sound is good enough to be eaten by the bucket loads. !!!
  
 Those tubes in the 2 amps are what's giving me goosebumps moments.


----------



## DecentLevi

musickid said:


> for beyer dt880 600 ohm is espressivo better as its a otl amp as opposed to elise which isn't. would espressivo pair well with a high end dac like gunjnir multibit. cant decide if espressivo plus top range dac is better than elise with lower spec dac. leaning towards 1st option


 
 Hi again, another thought. Being your 880's are 600 ohm and seeing how the Espressivo and Elise have a history of pairing best with low / medium-Z 'can's somewhere _around _50 - 300 ohms, I'd say the most likely your best scenarios are: Get the Euforia which is at least 10-20% more powerful and hope they can be driven well enough. Get another amp that's much more powerful to drive those 600 ohm beasts. Or my personal opinion this is your best option: get the Elise or Euforia and trade/sell your DT-880 in for the much better performing / easily driven headphone Sennheiser HD-600. I've owned the Beyer. DT-880 for around 5 years and recently the HD-600 and 650. IMO the Sennheiser outclass the DT-880's. in every way, shape and form until they're not even comparable. So much more impactful, organic, smooth, and finally we have soundstage - not to mention a more comfortable design and it can be driven from basically any amp. What's more is that those both have a fairly similar sound signature.


----------



## UntilThen

Please tell me where you get this history of Expressivo and Elise best pairing with 50 to 300 ohms from DL???

Aren't you forgetting the legend of T1 600 ohms users loving it with Elise?


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I thought from H1 and other sources that these amps were basically designed around low/medium gain headphones, and my headphones from  50 32-300 ohms paired well with the Elise, but _for me_, my 32 and 470 ohm can's didn't synergize at all. Didn't know the T1 is rated that high, and it seems quite an enigma it pairs well. For me though the only way I'd ever get a T1 is if I could have the body completely done over, as it's the same build as DT-880 which for my head shape causes about 90% of the pressure on the cups to go on the lower portion of the earpads and had an unrelievable center headband pressure discomfort. Although the times I've tried T1 before the sound was not for me, including the Astell & Kern T1 version, I would be interested to hear their synergy with either amp.
  
 EDIT: one of my 32-ohm headphones paired famously with Elise (SoundMagic HP-100), but not the other 32-ohm version of Beyer. DT-880. 
 Other pairings I liked were the Sennheisers @ 300 ohms, but not the Audio Technica ATH R70X @ 470 ohms


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Well I thought from H1 and other sources that* these amps were basically designed around low/medium gain headphones*,


 
  
 Really? Well I know that wouldn't have come from H1. 
  
 You should take a look at Feliks Audio site again. Supported headphones impedance : 32 to 600 ohms for both Elise and Euforia.
  
 For Expressivo, optimal impedance is 100 - 600 ohms.
  
 OTL amp are_ ideally _suited for high impedance headphones.
  
 That said, I've tried these headphones on Elise and it's all suitable.
  
 T1 600ohms, HD800, HD650, HD600 300ohms, Sennheiser Momentum 18ohms, PSB M4U2 32ohms, HE560 planar 45ohms. Even V-monk ear buds !!!
  
 Oscar Stewart who at one time used to grace us with his presence here, said this in his review of Elise.
 http://www.soundperfectionreviews.com/2016/09/review-feliks-audio-elise-otl-valve-amp.html
  
_This amp is suitable for high and low impedance headphones, however it does work best with high impedance headphones like the Beyerdynamic T1, but also works well with the Hifiman HE-500, which are low impedance but need a lot of power._
  
_First let me tell you that the Elise has plenty of gain, and drives the T1 with ease, and even drives the HE-500 with authority. I have tested turning up the volume with the HE-500 and no clipping can be heard throughout the range, most of my listening was done at around the 10’oclock mark with the HE-500. _
  
 I could not agree more with him. That is my experience of T1 and HE560 on Elise.


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> Well I thought from H1 and other sources that these amps were basically designed around low/medium gain headphones, and my headphones from  50 32-300 ohms paired well with the Elise, but _for me_, my 32 and 470 ohm can's didn't synergize at all. Didn't know the T1 is rated that high, and it seems quite an enigma it pairs well. For me though the only way I'd ever get a T1 is if I could have the body completely done over, as it's the same build as DT-880 which for my head shape causes about 90% of the pressure on the cups to go on the lower portion of the earpads and had an unrelievable center headband pressure discomfort. Although the times I've tried T1 before the sound was not for me, including the Astell & Kern T1 version, I would be interested to hear their synergy with either amp.
> 
> EDIT: one of my 32-ohm headphones paired famously with Elise (SoundMagic HP-100), but not the other 32-ohm version of Beyer. DT-880.
> Other pairings I liked were the Sennheisers @ 300 ohms, but not the Audio Technica ATH R70X @ 470 ohms


 
 The ATH-R70x is a high impedance headphone but for some reason it does not perform well with tube amps, OTL or hybrid.  On a good/decent SS amp like even a Asgard2 it sounds quite good, but a little boring for me.
  
@UntilThen, I think the T1 would be a great pairing with the Elise, even with stock tubes, I didn't get to try my T1 on doofab's Elise since my son has my T1 but for how the HD-800 sounded on the Elise I think its a ideal pairing.  My DT-990 premium actually sounded great on the Elise and so did the HD-700.  I think the stock tubes are a bit too warm for most planar but I think any OTL amp in general is not a good choice for any planar due to the higher output impedances of most OTL amps.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> I think any OTL amp in general is not a good choice for any planar due to the higher output impedances of most OTL amps.


 
  
 Yes David that's the general assumption but yet if you go to the La Figaro 339 thread, many of the early owners there will tell you that HE500 is a great pairing with the LF339. So the proof is really in the hearing and again it could differ from individuals. For that matter you won't find any La Figaro 339 amp owners staying with stock tubes. Those chinese power tubes would be the first to go.
  
 There's a difference being able to drive or the best pairing of amp and planar magnetics. I would say HE560 sounds more than adequate on Elise as I've no doubt HE500 sounds more than adequate on La Figaro 339.
  
 At the last Sydney meet I heard the Violetric V281 with T1 and I thought that had warmth for an ss amp. Would have love to hear the V281 with a LCD2.2 but there were no LCD2.2 there. Now there's a LCD3 at the coming meet so I might get a chance to listen to that with the Chord Hugo TT and Euforia as well as La Figaro 339.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> @UntilThen, I think the T1 would be a great pairing with the Elise, even with stock tubes


 
  
 You certainly think right there. There are almost a dozen T1 owners of both G1 and G2 that are very happy with their headphones and Elise. Most would have gone on from stock tubes though because Elise can sound a lot better with other tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> You certainly think right there. There are almost a dozen T1 owners of both G1 and G2 that are very happy with their headphones and Elise. Most would have gone on from stock tubes though because Elise can sound a lot better with other tubes.


 
 I'm one of them and can confirm Espressivo also sounds great with T1, again improved by tube rolling.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I'm one of them and can confirm Espressivo also sounds great with T1, again improved by tube rolling.


 
  
 I remember you were debating between T1 g1, T1 g2, HD800 or HD800S. You would have been happy with any of those and Elise.
  
 The key word is... as you said it... improved by tube rolling. 
  
 I've not met anyone who buys an OTL amp and never tube roll. Have you?


----------



## Spork67

There were fish today:
  
  


untilthen said:


> No mesh plates and no gold base???!!!   Hmmmm .... I guess no fish, prawn also can.


----------



## UntilThen

Damm Spork that is a BIG snapper. I should take up fishing and this could be a fishing thread.


----------



## HPLobster

Alright, so the so-called "two-week chill-out-and-enjoy-listening-to-stuff - stage" I proclaimed two days ago just went out the window.
 It´s the disease. Tubeitis. I´ve got it bad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Spurred by Oskari´s question about the Philips 6080 I did some homework.. um... I mean reasearch and last night I managed to buy a few Valvo 6080s NIB. Now PLEASE confirm my newbie-knowledge and tell me that these basically are Mullard 6080s and I can start building up anticipation now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Here´s a Picture from ebay:


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I remember you were debating between T1 g1, T1 g2, HD800 or HD800S. You would have been happy with any of those and Elise.
> 
> The key word is... as you said it... improved by tube rolling.
> 
> I've not met anyone who buys an OTL amp and never tube roll. Have you?


 
  
 Never-or put another way I don't know anyone who sticks to stock tubes. LOL,
  
 Now that was an interesting picture you posted earlier- EL12N as drivers and I'm not sure about the rear tubes, EL11 or 12? 
  
 Meantime, I'm all wired up this morning


----------



## DavidA

untilthen said:


> I remember you were debating between T1 g1, T1 g2, HD800 or HD800S. You would have been happy with any of those and Elise.
> 
> The key word is... as you said it... improved by tube rolling.
> 
> I've not met anyone who buys an OTL amp and never tube roll. Have you?


 
 I've met 2 so far 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 V281 is a nice amp, heard one last year and it has a slightly warm signature, almost like the Liquid Carbon.  The Hugo TT is impressive, I have yet to hear a 339, its not a very common amp but there was one person on the HE-560 thread who likes the 339 with a HE-560, I don't know if it was with stock tubes or others.


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> Alright, so the so-called "two-week chill-out-and-enjoy-listening-to-stuff - stage" I proclaimed two days ago just went out the window.
> It´s the disease. Tubeitis. I´ve got it bad.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


hplobster said:


> Alright, so the so-called "two-week chill-out-and-enjoy-listening-to-stuff - stage" I proclaimed two days ago just went out the window.
> It´s the disease. Tubeitis. I´ve got it bad.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Looks like it could be. Does it have two sets of four bendy triangular spikes at the top that look like they would be good for impaling someone?


----------



## HPLobster

howie13 said:


> Looks like it could be. Does it have two sets of four bendy triangular spikes at the top that look like they would be good for impaling someone?


 
 As soon as I find out, I will let you know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 I remember reading somewhere, that these (Valvo) are the Philips/Mullards produced for the German market...


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> As soon as I find out, I will let you know
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes the relationships are complex-I think Philips was the ultimate controlling company.
  
 My Mullard has a Mitcham factory marking.
  
 I'm sure you will like them anyway. Anything from that stable has always sounded good to me.


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> Well I thought from *H1 and other sources* that these amps were basically designed around low/medium gain headphones, and my headphones from  50 32-300 ohms paired well with the Elise, but _for me_, my 32 and 470 ohm can's didn't synergize at all. Didn't know the T1 is rated that high, and it seems quite an enigma it pairs well. For me though the only way I'd ever get a T1 is if I could have the body completely done over, as it's the same build as DT-880 which for my head shape causes about 90% of the pressure on the cups to go on the lower portion of the earpads and had an unrelievable center headband pressure discomfort. Although the times I've tried T1 before the sound was not for me, including the Astell & Kern T1 version, I would be interested to hear their synergy with either amp.
> 
> EDIT: one of my 32-ohm headphones paired famously with Elise (SoundMagic HP-100), but not the other 32-ohm version of Beyer. DT-880.
> Other pairings I liked were the Sennheisers @ 300 ohms, but not the Audio Technica ATH R70X @ 470 ohms


 
 What other sources? It certainly wasn't from H1 or UT or even lowly me or many others. I auditioned the T1G2 with Elise and wrote extensively about it. It is clearly a match made in heaven, as seems almost universally accepted. The only negative experience I remember reading about was from @connieflyer and that was due to some defect in the T1 he received, and not how it matched with Elise. Tubes come and go, ebb and flow, rise and fall on the FA threads. But the one consistent thing I've noticed is that Elise and T1 is a great match.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Now that was an interesting picture you posted earlier- EL12N as drivers and I'm not sure about the rear tubes, EL11 or 12?


 
  
 EL12N driving EL12. 
  
 It's truly a match made in heaven.... echoing Pct.


----------



## UntilThen

davida said:


> I have yet to hear a 339, its not a very common amp but there was one person on the HE-560 thread who likes the 339 with a HE-560,* I don't know if it was with stock tubes* or others.


 
  
 No one listens to LF339 with the stock tubes. Not even the monks. The stock tubes in LF339 will give you constipation. These 6N13P are seriously crude looking.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> EL12N driving EL12.
> 
> It's truly a match made in heaven.... echoing Pct.


 
 Well do you know I don't think I've tried that combo. Will get onto that.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Well do you know I don't think I've tried that combo. Will get onto that.


 
  
 Brace yourself Howie. That EL12N and EL12 will electrify you. Make sure you are seated before you flick the switch.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> EL12N driving EL12.
> 
> It's truly a match made in heaven.... echoing Pct.


 

 Based on your post I am now listening to this combo. You and I are sharing the same heaven today. Amazing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Random thoughts on tube rolling. Back from my tube/speaker-system days, it seemed that most tube amps, and even preamps, had so many tubes that rolling wasn't even thought about. It seems like rolling is much more practical with headphone amps, and maybe OTLs in particular. From what I can tell, very few OTLs today are generally used with stock tubes.


----------



## DecentLevi

Partly I was basing the Elise suitability for low / medium gain headphones from H1's recent post here, but I may have misread something. Also from my own experience (also including the Audeze LCD-2 @ 70 ohms), and other sources that fleet me at the moment. Perhaps it could be different with other hi-Z headphones, but the ones I've tried happened to not have the best synergy with it. And the importance of impedance is about more than volume potential, but also synergy and the like.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Brace yourself Howie. That EL12N and EL12 will electrify you. Make sure you are seated before you flick the switch.


 
 Yes I'll put on something quiet and soothing at low volume so as not to over excite my precious nervous system. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Something like these unusual arrangements for Classical Guitar:


----------



## connieflyer

As far as high impedance phones are concerned on the Elise, I had the Beyer T1V1 and loved it. If it would not have had a bad driver, that the seller would not exchange only refund purchase, I would still have them. At the time I got refund there were no T1's available, except that same merchant that I would not buy from again, I decided to try the Senn 800, and still use this today as my main. phones. I had used the Senn 650, twice and the 700 also with great synergy and comfort. If not for upgrading to the Euphoria, I would have kept the Elise, but did not have an interest in having two or more amps. I listen to the music not the amp. I find what I like and don't constantly roll tubes, phones looking to categorize the sound I hear. If I like it I listen. If I don't I buy something else, until I reach that plateau where musical bliss is assured. I have used and enjoyed headphones since the '70's starting with the Koss Pro 4A, come a long way since then. To me it is the music that pulls me along not the components used to reach that point


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> Partly I was basing the Elise suitability for low / medium gain headphones from H1's recent post here,* but I may have misread something*. Also from my own experience (also including the Audeze LCD-2 @ 70 ohms), and other sources that fleet me at the moment. Perhaps it could be different with other hi-Z headphones, but the ones I've tried happened to not have the best synergy with it. And the importance of impedance is about more than volume potential, but also synergy and the like.


 
  
 Just for the record, you missed hundreds of H1 and UT posts (and posts from others) going back to the early Elise days in which they have consistently praised the Elise-T1 match.
  
 I certainly agree that impedance is not the sole consideration, which is why blanket statements about lack of suitability of Elise within portions of its spec'd impedance range can be misleading. FA specs Elise for 32 to 600 ohm headphones. Certainly there are phones within that range which may not sound ideal with Elise (or with a particular tube combo), but that would be true of any amp. I think FA has proven to be a conservative, truth-worthy manufacturer and I have seen nothing to question their specs.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Based on your post I am now listening to this combo. You and I are sharing the same heaven today. Amazing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's possible we're in the same heaven because *H = EL12N + EL12*
  
 If I had this amp, I wouldn't tube roll. I would accept any colour it came in.


----------



## connieflyer

Or perhaps one of this house heaters


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> It's possible we're in the same heaven because *H = EL12N + EL12*
> 
> If I had this amp, I wouldn't tube roll. I would accept any colour it came in.


 

 I love instant gratification. EL12n/EL12 is now my favorite combo. You are pure genius of legendary proportions.
  
 And I agree. I wouldn't even care of that amp were made of cardboard. I'd love to have it !!!!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Or perhaps one of this house heaters


 

 Those are illegal in Arizona


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Yes I'll put on something quiet and soothing at low volume so as not to over excite my precious nervous system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well? Are you up here yet? Pct and I are waiting for you. Can you take the faster lift please.


----------



## connieflyer

Sure, here we go with the cardboard crack again! I thought I was being very clever. Glad I heard from Lukasz, that my amp was getting ready, I was ready to pull the trigger on the McIntosh headphone amp, love those blue metters!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I love instant gratification. *EL12n/EL12 is now my favorite combo.* You are pure genius of legendary proportions.


 
  
 Great discoveries usually are a result of accidents. My EL11s were misbehaving so I send them to H1 - send the convicts back to London LOL.
  
 Hence these EL12N are promoted to the drivers seat.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> *Sure, here we go with the cardboard crack again!* I thought I was being very clever. Glad I heard from Lukasz, that my amp was getting ready, I was ready to pull the trigger on the McIntosh headphone amp, love those blue metters!


 
 Oh please don't think that was directed at you personally. I was thinking of the cardboard space helmets I used to wear as a kid. No adult would think of using either a cardboard space helmet or cardboard amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Celebrations are under way around the globe in anticipation of you getting your Euforia


----------



## connieflyer

Well, I still have the tin foll helmet in case you stop in for a visit!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Partly I was basing the Elise suitability for low / medium gain headphones from H1's recent post here, but I may have misread something. Also from my own experience (also including the Audeze LCD-2 @ 70 ohms), and other sources that fleet me at the moment. Perhaps it could be different with other hi-Z headphones, but the ones I've tried happened to not have the best synergy with it. And the importance of impedance is about more than volume potential, but also synergy and the like.


 
  
 I think you did misread/misinterpret what H1 said when you thought he meant that Elise is more suitable for low/medium impedance cans rather than those with high impedance.  What he says is:
  
_'so things are looking very hopeful indeed for cans other than the 'ideal' high-impedance dynamics. F-A did from the off do everything possible to perform better with low-z cans than is usually the case with OTL amps.'._
  
  
 What he is saying is that high impedance cans are the 'ideal 'cans for OTL amps like Elise but F-A have done everything possible to make Elise also perform well with low impedance cans, unlike most OTL amps.
  
 At least that's how I read him. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
  
 I fully agree with you that the HP100 is a very good closed headphone, much underrated..


----------



## connieflyer

Agreed Howie, I believe that is what H meant, that is the way I understood it. Another good closed back phone is the Senn 380 HD Pro. About as close to the 650's as I have heard.  Used these for a couple of years and enjoyed them.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Well? Are you up here yet? Pct and I are waiting for you. Can you take the faster lift please.


 
  
 Oh dear, I have all those wires to untangle first- seriously, I now have to take the wife shopping and then to visit her elderly mother, who has dementia in a Care Home.
  
 When I get home later I can relax and listen in peace and quiet.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Will post immediately I've heard the first 10 bars of music. LOL!


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Oh dear, I have all those wires to untangle first- seriously, I now have to take the wife shopping and then to visit her elderly mother, who has dementia in a Care Home.
> 
> When I get home later I can relax and listen in peace and quiet.
> 
> ...


 
  
 By the time you come back from shopping and visiting your mother-in-law, Pct and I would have transcended to the furthest galaxy up above. I think we will drag connieflyer up with us instead.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> By the time you come back from shopping and visiting your mother-in-law, Pct and I would have transcended to the furthest galaxy up above. I think we will drag connieflyer up with us instead.


 
 HAHA I was going to say that but the wife interrupted me to tell me to hurry up. I'm off now- catch up with you all later.


----------



## Oskari

hplobster said:


> Now PLEASE confirm my newbie-knowledge and tell me that these basically are Mullard 6080s and I can start building up anticipation now
> 
> Here´s a Picture from ebay:




Not the best photo but they likely are.


----------



## connieflyer

No need to drag me to another galaxy, I am already there, waiting for quiet unassuming earthlings! Waiting patiently for more victims while listening to this


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Partly I was basing the Elise suitability for low / medium gain headphones from H1's recent post here, but I may have misread something. Also from my own experience (also including the Audeze LCD-2 @ 70 ohms), and other sources that fleet me at the moment. Perhaps it could be different with other hi-Z headphones, but the ones I've tried happened to not have the best synergy with it. And the importance of impedance is about more than volume potential, but also synergy and the like.


 
  
 Hey DL...I do wish you would be more careful with the statements you keep making...such as the ref. above and more misinformation to such as @musickid re. his 600ohm headphones.
  
 Others have already corrected you re. Feliks-Audio's recommended z range, and the fact that for a VERY long while now the high-z T1s have been the favourite for many folks and perform superbly.
  
 As for my post you refer to, it is quite clear to anyone the context is *purely* as to the *suitability* of lower-z planars...a different topic entirely to what actually may perform _*best*_ as regards headphones in general!
  
 Once again I have to plead with you to *please *scrutinise your information and subsequent conclusions before posting "advice" to folks who may not be as experienced in this field as others...


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Sure, here we go with the cardboard crack again! I thought I was being very clever. Glad I heard from Lukasz, that my amp was getting ready, I was ready to pull the trigger on the McIntosh headphone amp, love those blue metters!


 
  
 Actually cf, you had me fooled too for a while!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And if I were you, I'd leave it to millionaire maestro UT to add the Mac to his ever-increasing collection lol!!...and with any luck, he'll discover one of those tubes below par and _*send the amp to me!!!*_











...(but shan't hold my breath LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). Glad too, that you heard from Lukasz...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


untilthen said:


> Great discoveries usually are a result of accidents. My EL11s were misbehaving so I send them to H1 - send the convicts back to London LOL.
> 
> Hence these EL12N are promoted to the drivers seat.


 
  
 Those EL11s are gonna get a real good telling off when they get here...how dare those upstart 12N cheapies knock them off their perch lol?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but these 12Ns sure are proving very versatile!...great stuff!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...suppose I'd better get cf's Ns out of his box and give 'em a quick try in Euforia...(will send you - and @pctazhp - the bill if she blows up lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  
 But I must admit I'm rather doubtful they can improve upon my (now) Philips mesh EL3N*G *& Valvo EL11 driving the 12 Spezials...but have got to see for myself, of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Any differences notwithstanding, I can now - with further burn-in - confirm quite categorically that the 12 Spezials are truly outstanding power tubes, and _*in my system*_ now surpass my uber expensive GEC/Osrams as a "one tube to rule them all"...with no need to swap around for different genres of (my!) music...something I never thought would happen!...
  
 And the icing on the cake is that I managed to bag a nice pair of Telefunkens - reading "100%" -  for $100 (free shipping!)...and on seeing them today, they do indeed look like new...just hope they _work_ like new LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...    :
  

  
 I'm drooling already...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. For those who may not have caught earlier postings about these tubes, you need special adapters (only available from China) for them, and their top anode wire needs insulating against interference. Also, these - as with the EL11, EL12 (standard "Coke Bottle" shape) and straight-sided EL12N, cannot be officially recommended by Feliks-Audio themselves...and like other 'alternative' to stock configuration tubes, we use them *at our own risk*...(but so far, they don't appear to be causing our amps any problems...).


----------



## Frederick Rea

Somewhat out of context I would like to say that I always test the valves with the same disk that it is: https://archive.org/details/mbid-31f021eb-c006-4af5-929b-61956010c541.
 Just so I can compare within my setup, the answers of the different valves that I intend to use with a certain type of music. Not all valves, if any, are suitable for all types of music.
 Regarding Headphones. (Impedance, in general terms equals the inverse of the resistance), so the most difficult are the low or very low impedance (high resistance), but Elise work just beautifully with my 20 ohms impedance Audeze LCD


----------



## Frederick Rea

howie13 said:


> I think you did misread/misinterpret what H1 said when you thought he meant that Elise is more suitable for low/medium impedance cans rather than those with high impedance.  What he says is:
> 
> _'so things are looking very hopeful indeed for cans other than the 'ideal' high-impedance dynamics. F-A did from the off do everything possible to perform better with low-z cans than is usually the case with OTL amps.'._
> 
> ...


 
 SURE YOU ARE CORRECT H13


----------



## Frederick Rea

Sorry I forgot,
 For Deph of Image, Timbre and Dynamics I do the test with http://www.allmusic.com/album/opus-3-test-cd-41-mw0000958317


----------



## UntilThen

frederick rea said:


> Somewhat out of context I would like to say that I always test the valves with the same disk that it is: https://archive.org/details/mbid-31f021eb-c006-4af5-929b-61956010c541.
> Just so I can compare within my setup, the answers of the different valves that I intend to use with a certain type of music. Not all valves, if any, are suitable for all types of music.
> Regarding Headphones. (Impedance, in general terms equals the inverse of the resistance), so the most difficult are the low or very low impedance (high resistance), *but Elise work just beautifully with my 20 ohms impedance Audeze LCD*


 
  
 Thanks for sharing Fred. What LCD is that?
  
 Did you hear this @DavidA ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Frederick wasn't kidding when he says Elise works just beautifully with his 20 ohms impedance Audeze LCD.
  
@ostewart wasn't kidding when he says Elise works just beautifully with his 47 ohms impedance HiFiman HE-500.
  
@aqsw wasn't kidding when he says Elise works just beautifully with his 23 ohms impedance Ether-C.
  
@jerick70 wasn't kidding when he says Elise works beautifully with his 58 ohms Audeze LCD2.2.
  
 I wasn't kidding when I say Elise works beautifully with my 45 ohms impedance HiFiman HE-560.
  
 Now I'll wait for other Elise owners with planar magnetics headphones to add their feedback.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Well? Are you up here yet? Pct and I are waiting for you. Can you take the faster lift please.


 
 Okay I've listened to Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony with EL12 powers and EL12N drivers as you recommended.
  
 Well I'm mesmerised and the English language is not competent to express my feelings.
  
 The last time I used EL12N's as drivers I thought the sound was a bit bright, but that was with EL11 power tubes, and my EL12N's are now burned in a bit.
  
 Astonishing integrity, refinement, grace, panache, control, dynamic agility, inner detail, big sound-stage and never too bright-just right, even in the big brass opening bars of the First Movement.
  
 Thank you for yet another awesome discovery.
  
 Next I must compare  the EL12N drivers with EL12spez powers, but not for a day or two as I want to enjoy this set up for longer.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Thanks for sharing Fred. What LCD is that?
> 
> Did you hear this @DavidA ?
> 
> ...


 

 Hm....maybe I´ll give my Oppo PM-3s (32 Ohm) a try........tempting.....


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> ...suppose I'd better get cf's Ns out of his box and give 'em a quick try in Euforia...(will send you - and @pctazhp - the bill if she blows up lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Mon Ami, you better hurry and get those EL12N in the drivers seat because we've just got another happy customer below. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


howie13 said:


> Okay I've listened to Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony with *EL12 powers and EL12N drivers* as you recommended.
> 
> Well I'm mesmerised and the English language is not competent to express my feelings.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well Howie, I suppose we should packaged up this combo and sell it to the world. Might become bigger than Facebook and Google. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, do try EL12N with EL12spez.... might just be that lil bit more 'spezial'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Elise with this combo is outdoing La Figaro 339. Amazing.


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Hm....maybe I´ll give my Oppo PM-3s (32 Ohm) a try........tempting.....


 
  
 Lobster, do it now.


----------



## HPLobster

oskari said:


> Not the best photo but they likely are.


  
  
 Thank you! Well, science told us: Two "almost sure" confirmations are as good as a 100% one, right...? Right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
 Really looking forward to listen to them now.... I could have bought two actual Mullard 6080s but went with four of these for the same price instead....
  
  

  
  
  
 Quote:


pctazhp said:


> Based on your post I am now listening to this combo. You and I are sharing the same heaven today. Amazing


 
  
  
 Yeah, you guys have a nice day in heaven, with your EL12-stuff I do not even know how to put on this thing....! I´ll make sure to enjoy my journey to Saint Peter´s Gate as long as I can....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
envy-mode off


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Lobster, do it now.


 
  
 Nah, sorry UT, not going to happen tonight .... it´s my wife´s night out which leaves me with our daughter. And if the Elise has ONE natural enemy, it´s BABYPHONES


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Mon Ami, you better hurry and get those EL12N in the drivers seat because we've just got another happy customer below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yep this is really brilliant sound repro-actually when I close my eyes the sound is better than in the concert hall.
  
 I wondered how La Fig would compare with Elise. You got a real bargain there. Nice to have a selection of amps to play with.
  
 I think I might just listen to the other later symphonies of Tchaikovsky tonight. No point going to bed, far too much adrenaline circulating. Just as well it's Sunday tomorrow.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Yep this is really brilliant sound repro-actually when I close my eyes the sound is better than in the concert hall.
> 
> I wondered how La Fig would compare with Elise. You got a real bargain there. Nice to have a selection of amps to play with.
> 
> I think I might just listen to the other later symphonies of Tchaikovsky tonight. No point going to bed, far too much adrenaline circulating. Just as well it's Sunday tomorrow.


 
  
 Your enthusiasm is getting me super excited. Listen to this on Tidal Hifi and those cannon shots are real.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Your enthusiasm is getting me super excited. Listen to this on Tidal Hifi and those cannon shots are real.




 I won't sleep for a week after hearing that.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

Hello friends,
  
 Looks like I am way behind on Elise. I see EL11, 12, 12N.. H-E11+12N and ect... I am still on 5998-EL3N combo. I've tons of catching up to do. More tubes and adapters to buy hmmmmm.......


----------



## Frederick Rea

with 20 ohms impedance I have a closed LCD-XC and a little easier open LCD 4 with 200ohms. They are both wonderful even the closed one which is the version 2 (to have the same open transparency than the LCD-X).* ELISE is confortable with both*.* No need for more power* to drive LCD-XC (Specification says Optimal power requirement 1 – 4W)


----------



## pctazhp

I'm not kidding when I say I don't and never have owned a planar headphone and so I don't have an opinion on planars and Elise.
  
 And I'm not kidding when I say Elise drives my 50 ohm HD598 with aplomb while I eat a plum.
  
 And I'm not kidding when I say I need to go to the bathroom and will be back later.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for sharing, I now have a mental image I can't get rid of. Hope everything came out alright!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Thanks for sharing, I now have a mental image I can't get rid of. Hope everything came out alright!


 

 Next time I eat a plum I'll remember not to eat the pit.


----------



## connieflyer

Well that's going to be rough I'm very sorry. It pains me to think of you in pain


----------



## richard89

Hey all, thought I'd report back in on my recent touring with the Elise. I had to get this off my chest. I've recently revisited the 6 pack EL3N and found what an excellent combo it was. But today I'm playing with the RFT EL12N as powers and Philips EL3N as drivers and it's pretty much my favorite combination as the moment. I think it's something about EL3N that give this great spaciousness out of the combo's I've tried. And that's all that I've been looking for... just the right amount of spaciousness (or sound stage). Nothing is glaring, all the instruments have their place and the vocals are just on point.


----------



## DecentLevi

It is absolutely unprecedented on HeadFi, how we're having such unanimous agreement on the performance of these tubes. Even more than EL3n. Thanks Howie 13 times, and I have a feeling we've got a lot more to enjoy with them out of the euphoria.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @UntilThen, @HOWIE13 and @pctazhp...I don't really know how to do this gently, but there's no point my _not_ telling it how it is...I'm afraid my own experience differs a good bit from your own alas...but then, different equipment, of course. And I'm pretty sure I kept an open mind, despite my previous statements about possible doubts compared to my mesh plate drivers and 12 Spezials...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  
 I hear you re.your description H13, and agree with those qualities...but unfortunately my own particular setup highlights some other aspects that are in fact missing - _*for me*_...
  
 My goto tracks are now Loreena McKennitt's "Beneath a Phrygian Sky" and "Kecharitomene" from 'An Ancient Muse'...primarily because no others have given me such a spine-tingling, startling "freeze" index response (especially the first piece). I have now come to trust this immediate response over and above close analytical scrutiny, but this is not really very informative to folks, of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And so I set about trying to determine just why I wasn't getting the same WOW factor....and I really am just being 'picky' here lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Firstly... bass, although very pronounced, didn't extend to the same depths, and was far less detailed...and not as much _sub_-bass.
  
 Secondly...treble extension and detail is exemplary, but some of its _range _of tones - along with that of the mids - was also slightly narrower...the deliciously exotic tones of the Eastern instruments in these tracks didn't have quite the same excitement/'novelty' factor. Lower range acoustic strings didn't have the same attack, bite and reverb/decay...something especially noticeable also with piano notes. Loreena's voice was also a tad lighter in tonal range.
  
 Lastly, spatial presentation was _very_ different indeed - possibly a result of the wider soundstage. In my setup, the final result was not such a vastly holographic stage, especially in extremely fast, complex passages...cohesion and control slipped a little.
  
 I am so sorry if I'm pouring cold water on anyone here, but I must stress that my comments are purely _relative_...the EL12Ns are still extremely good performers as drivers. It's just that they do not match my own particular setup in ways that are important to _*me*_...but everyone has their own preferences, of course, which is how it should be lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ah well, time I was tucked up for the night, so 'bye for now...and G'night!!


----------



## connieflyer

@pctazhp I hate to be the barer of bad news but, well this should explain everything.


----------



## pctazhp

H1. I'm not sure your experience negates what we have experienced with EL12n drivers and EL12 powers. The reality is that it may be impossible to duplicate your experience. Your set up starts with EL11 mesh plate drivers. I don't have a clue as to where to even start  finding such drivers. My source of tubes is pretty much limited to Ebay and I've never seen a pair of EL11s designated as mesh plate.
  
 I understand you were able to order a pair of TFK EL12 spez for $100. But the pairs I'm seeing on Ebay are prohibitively expensive:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-NIB-tubes-Telefunken-EL12-sp-spez-1956-72-4-matched-pair-/112295852876?hash=item1a255abb4c:g:x3cAAOSw241YmeqU
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-NIB-tubes-Telefunken-EL12-sp-spez-1956-72-2-1-box-factory-sealed-/112305698317?hash=item1a25f0f60d:g:XjAAAOSw44BYmKMl
  
 And of course the cost of the adapters has to be added to that, and then there is the concern about hum.
  
 So I doubt I will ever achieve the level you have. In praising the EL12n/EL12-ST combo that I find so enjoyable, I'm comparing it to the alternatives I have. And even though I like this combo a lot, I have not done the degree of comparable auditions to definitively rank it above EL11 ST/EL12-ST or EL11-ST/EL12n.
  
 I've already spent a fortune on tubes and most I'll probably never use again. But with some combination of the EL11 and EL12 or EL12n that I have, I feel I will be enjoying listening to music with great pleasure, which has been my objective all along - especially when I am finally united with that yet to be constructed Euforia which is probably just a bunch of parts biding their time in Poland.
  
 So all is good. I'm glad you have achieved the level you have, and knowing that it is probably greater than I will achieve doesn't detract from my own enjoyment


----------



## connieflyer

A wise earthling to be sure!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> @pctazhp I hate to be the barer of bad news but, well this should explain everything.


 

 Wow. The one-two punch tonight. H1 tells me my tubes are a bunch of garbage and then you break this news to me. I'm just a pathetic pile of hapless mush tonight.


----------



## connieflyer

This is all true of course, but at least the girls are home now, so they can console you.


----------



## UntilThen

citizenlin said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> Looks like I am way behind on Elise. I see EL11, 12, 12N.. H-E11+12N and ect... I am still on 5998-EL3N combo. I've tons of catching up to do. More tubes and adapters to buy hmmmmm.......


 
  
 CL, you have no idea what you have missed. Now go to Feliks Audio and click buy on Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

frederick rea said:


> with 20 ohms impedance I have a closed LCD-XC and a little easier open LCD 4 with 200ohms. They are both wonderful even the closed one which is the version 2 (to have the same open transparency than the LCD-X).* ELISE is confortable with both*.* No need for more power* to drive LCD-XC (Specification says Optimal power requirement 1 – 4W)


 
  
 Well Frederick, I think we have to make you our new spokesman now. Thanks for the feedback on LCD-XC and LCD 4. You may ship the LCD 4 to me for audition when you are ready.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi @UntilThen, @HOWIE13 and @pctazhp...I don't really know how to do this gently, but there's no point my _not_ telling it how it is...I'm afraid my own experience differs a good bit from your own alas...but then, different equipment, of course. And I'm pretty sure I kept an open mind, despite my previous statements about possible doubts compared to my mesh plate drivers and 12 Spezials...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 H1, no problem. The 3 of us will just market EL12N and EL12 with one zero less. So instead of One miliion dollars, we will settle for $100,000 and split the proceeds 3 ways.


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> Hey all, thought I'd report back in on my recent touring with the Elise. I had to get this off my chest. I've recently revisited the 6 pack EL3N and found what an excellent combo it was. But today I'm playing with the RFT EL12N as powers and Philips EL3N as drivers and it's pretty much my favorite combination as the moment. I think it's something about EL3N that give this great spaciousness out of the combo's I've tried. And that's all that I've been looking for... just the right amount of spaciousness (or sound stage). Nothing is glaring, all the instruments have their place and the vocals are just on point.


 
  
 Richard !!! Feel free to get it off your chest anytime. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





    
  
 So EL3N and EL12N is your fav now? You are going to make @aqsw and @Oskari very happy.
  
 Btw you describe EL3N characteristics very well.
  
 Ps... I still run 6 pack EL3N from time to time.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

Hey UT, 
  
 How is everything at your side of the planet? I shot an email to FA this moring regarding Euforia. Who got Euforia? Which combo tubes and adapters  must I purchase?


----------



## UntilThen

citizenlin said:


> Hey UT,
> 
> How is everything at your side of the planet? I shot an email to FA this moring regarding Euforia. Who got Euforia? Which combo tubes and adapters  must I purchase?


 
  
 Hello CL,
  
 Everything is fine here. It is after all the lucky country where hum is non existent and everything sounds good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think there are about 10 or more here who have placed a pre-order for Euforia. We got it at the pre-order price of $1259. Comes with Psvane 6sn7 drivers and Svetlana 6h13c power tubes.
  
 You don't have to buy any tubes. All your tubes for Elise can be use on Euforia.
  
 Unless you want to try the latest phenomenon - EL11, EL12, EL12N. Adapters are EL11 / EL12 to 6sn7 from mrsxuling.
  
 My Euforia is about to be shipped out at the end of Feb. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers
  
  
 Btw ... this is the new thread for Euforia.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/1140#post_13291078


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 I have two EL11 Loewe-Opta tubes. One is the little one in the middle of the picture. The other one is a ST type that does not look like the other two in the picture but rather the same as the standard Valvo tubes.
  

  
 I tried the small L-O tube (in size in between the EL12N and the standard EL11 tubes). It sounded fine, but I have learned from experience that you need a pair to properly evaluate how a tube sounds.
  
 IMHO you are better off to try to find a pair 40's Telefunken EL11 tubes. To me (and others as well) they may be among the best sounding EL11 tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

@hypnos1
  
 No problem with the differences you are hearing. Your set-up is indeed unique and will probably be impossible to ever re-produce.
  
 I also, like you, find the EL12spez very special too but they are getting very expensive now and need that extra shielding to prevent hums and buzzing. 
  
 I also prefer all these tubes as dual tubes in the power slots, that gives extra spaciousness, though that's not always needed or even desirable, depends on the music. Still, even as single tubes in each socket they sound fabulous and the best I've ever heard in Elise.
  
 The other thing is you are using a different amplifier from the rest of us.
  
 I've been thinking for a while that Euforia may surprise us with the tubes she prefers compared to Elise. We may have two quite different amplifiers to compare with different handling of tubes-which is why I have cupboards full of old tubes, and I have not yet even ordered Euforia. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Interesting times ahead!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> It is absolutely unprecedented on HeadFi, how we're having such unanimous agreement on the performance of these tubes. Even more than EL3n. Thanks Howie 13 times, and I have a feeling we've got a lot more to enjoy with them out of the euphoria.


 
 That's very kind of you DL.
  
 Acknowledgement must also go to  several others, not me, for first considering the EL11, and angpsi for the EL12spez, with H1 finding a way of shielding the wires to allow us to listen to the full range of these remarkable_ 'EL12 type'_ tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> The other thing is you are using a different amplifier from the rest of us.


 
  
 You nail it. Us mere mortals are still on Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Nevertheless in the absence of EL11, EL12N and EL12 does sound very good to my modded HD650. It's making my HD650 even brighter. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You know, when I switch from La Figaro 339 that is using Mullard EF80 and Svetlana 6H13C to Elise with EL12N and EL12, the tone is almost identical except La Fig have a slightly wider soundstage and Elise has a higher soundstage. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Uncanny indeed !!!
  
 But it's no surprise. The EF80 in La Fig is also a pentode run in strapped triode mode. This is triode-strapped pentodes sound that I'm hearing and it's gorgeous.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> You nail it. Us mere mortals are still on Elise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 La Fig sounds very tasty, especially with it's dual channel control. 
  
 Did you roll many tubes in La Fig? Can it handle EL11/12 tubes and is there a big range of driver options?


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> La Fig sounds very tasty, especially with it's dual channel control.
> 
> Did you roll many tubes in La Fig? Can it handle EL11/12 tubes and is there a big range of driver options?


 
  
 I dare not try EL12 in La Fig. It might lock down the power station here. This amp is a beast. My volume never exceed 9am. It's usually at 8am.
  
 I only have 3 drivers for La Fig. Mullard and Siemens EF80 and RCA 5693 but they are absolutely gorgeous. Quite cheap too. The Mullard EF80 from Langrex cost me only $21 aussie a pair. !!! 
 Guys at the La Fig thread likes TS or RCA 6SJ7GT mesh plate too. Their mesh plate are actually screen as Glenn said.  However I can't find those 'mesh plates' now. They also like the EF86 but that requires another adapter. I've got adapters coming out of my ears now. Like I need another adapter.
  
 Power tubes are all the conventional power tubes we use in Elise. Between the drivers and power tubes, I've literally many combination of tones. Too many already.


----------



## hypnos1

citizenlin said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> Looks like I am way behind on Elise. I see EL11, 12, 12N.. H-E11+12N and ect... I am still on 5998-EL3N combo. I've tons of catching up to do. More tubes and adapters to buy hmmmmm.......


 
  
 Hi stranger...good to hear from you again (what you bin up to?!).
  
 And yes, you have _*a lot*_ of catching up to do - a good few late nights ahead for you, methinks!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And now there's Euforia on the scene....your wallet also is in for a hit my good friend, now you've braved the return to us crazy nuts!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....so CHEERS...and GOOD LUCK!!...


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I dare not try EL12 in La Fig. It might lock down the power station here. This amp is a beast. My volume never exceed 9am. It's usually at 8am.
> 
> I only have 3 drivers for La Fig. Mullard and Siemens EF80 and RCA 5693 but they are absolutely gorgeous. Quite cheap too. The Mullard EF80 from Langrex cost me only $21 aussie a pair. !!!
> Guys at the La Fig thread likes TS or RCA 6SJ7GT mesh plate too. Their mesh plate are actually screen as Glenn said.  However I can't find those 'mesh plates' now. They also like the EF86 but that requires another adapter. I've got adapters coming out of my ears now. Like I need another adapter.
> ...


 
 There's Mullard 'mesh plate' EF80's going for next to nothing. Sounds a real bargain. I read it's quite a warm sounding amp. Will need to do more research.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> There's Mullard 'mesh plate' EF80's going for for next to nothing. Sounds a real bargain.* I read it's quite a warm sounding amp*. Will need to do more research.


 
  
 Ah this is a real surprise for me because that's what I read too prior to getting LF339. It all depends on which power tube you use. To get a warm tone, I have to use Svetlana 6H13C, RCA 6AS6G or GE 6AS7GA. 
  
 With Bendix 6080wb and Tung Sol 5998, you basically get less warm but very dynamic sounding tone. I love the sound. It's great.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Ah this is a real surprise for me because that's what I read too prior to getting LF339. It all depends on which power tube you use. To get a warm tone, I have to use Svetlana 6H13C, RCA 6AS6G or GE 6AS7GA.
> 
> With Bendix 6080wb and Tung Sol 5998, you basically get less warm but very dynamic sounding tone. I love the sound. It's great.


 
 Just as well you had all the previous experience of those 6AS7 type tubes with Elise-it's probably short-cut your tube rolling with LF by around a year!


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Just as well you had all the previous experience of those 6AS7 type tubes with Elise-it's probably short-cut your tube rolling with LF by around a year!


 
  
 Very true. Invaluable experience. I wish my friend @HeatFan12 is still around. I would have love to share with him my experiences. He has several tube amps, including SinglePower and WA2. Guy I met on the DV336se tube rolling thread.
  
 All these tubes can now be used in Euforia too. Just wait for the community here to go wild when they receive their Euforia.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys....@UntilThen, @HOWIE13, @pctazhp et al!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well folks, didn't get much sleep last night for thought of how my comments on the EL12Ns driving my 12 Spezials might go down. So thanks for not telling me I don't know what I'm talking about lol!...('cos sometimes I do indeed question my own hearing/assessments!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 Now I have time to reflect, I must first off reiterate that my own experience is purely _relative_...and to reassure you especially, pct, that what you have is indeed _*exceptionally good!!!*_





...and I ORDER you to enjoy it to the fullest LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As you guys mentioned, the different amp will undoubtedly alter the picture somewhat...but fear not, your Euforias won't spoil the magic you are getting now... it will _*heighten*_ it lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And as you also say, the EL12N as driver experience has finally confirmed beyond any doubt that I am indeed so very lucky with what my mesh plate drivers are delivering, especially with the EL12 Spezials as powers. The difference is quite dramatic, which now has me in hyper-paranoid mode whenever I go anywhere near the amp...and is *definitely* off limits to my better half!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. I doubt I'll ever come across any more of these marvels...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 But I'm really glad the EL12N/EL12 combo has worked out so well...and that totally black background is another real bonus - not to mention no hint of hum lol!... GREAT WORK guys...WELL DONE!...


----------



## UntilThen

@HOWIE13  wait for me to get my Euforia. 
  
 I'm expecting Euforia to sound better than Elise and La Figaro 339. I really do. I will give you my unbiased opinion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







  
 Stay tuned and don't go chasing a 2nd hand LF339 ... yet.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi guys....@UntilThen, @HOWIE13, @pctazhp et al!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Fear not H1. I will roll with what I have now. I just hope Lukasz remembers to pack your EL11s with my Euforia and that I'll be able to sample a pitch black pair of EL11s again.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> @HOWIE13  wait for me to get my Euforia.
> 
> I'm expecting Euforia to sound better than Elise and La Figaro 339. I really do. I will give you my unbiased opinion.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm holding off to learn how you all find Euforia. No Chinese amps for me just yet!
  
 Meantime I'm enjoying rolling with Elise, who has been very resilient all these months-hasn't complained once.
  
 A clear  accolade to F-A's workmanship.
  
 Oh, and I've discovered my HE400 is a low 35ohm impedance Planar so tried it and was most impressed with how it sounded-great bass in particular. Elise has no problem driving these, powerful and in full control, with loads of headroom to spare for those distinctive high frequency, dynamic vocal  treble  peaks.
  
  
 So to wake me up this morning I've been listening to some richly textured Choral music and my new configurations for the day really cut through the layers and tease out the various parts of the chorus, but without losing sight of the harmonious whole-that's very rare in my experience with amps that are very detailed, they all too often lose the wood for the trees, or more accurately lose  the musicality for the notes - but not Elise.
  
  
  
  
 Here's what I'm using today:
  
  

  
 RWN/RFT spez powers,Valvo EL12 drivers
  
  
 and
  
  
  

  
  
 Dual combo TFK EL11 with Valvo EL12 powers, RWN/RFT EL12spez drivers.
  
 No hum or buzzes either, but I am envious of H1's 'transparent' shielded wires.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Oh, and I've discovered my HE400 is a low 35ohm impedance Planar so tried it and was most impressed with how it sounded-great bass in particular. Elise has no problem driving these, powerful and in full control, with loads of headroom to spare for those distinctive high frequency, dynamic vocal  treble  peaks.


 
  
 Thanks Howie. I just need to debunk the myth that Elise as an OTL amp cannot sound good with planar magnetics. Now we have more and more owners of Elise stating their favourable personal experience with planar magnetics.
  
 Prior to my getting the T1, I was loving HE560 on Elise and wrote very favourably about it in the 1st Elise thread. I love running Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Tung Sol 5998 with it. The only thing putting me off HE560 is the medieval torture tight head clamp.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Fear not H1. I will roll with what I have now. I just hope Lukasz remembers to pack your EL11s with my Euforia and that I'll be able to sample a pitch black pair of EL11s again.


 
  
 Yo UT...fingers crossed for perfect EL11 performance lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


howie13 said:


> I'm holding off to learn how you all find Euforia. No Chinese amps for me just yet!
> 
> Meantime I'm enjoying rolling with Elise, who has been very resilient all these months-hasn't complained once.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hats off indeed to F-A...once again LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And you certainly do have some very interesting combinations there, H13....but you do realise we want FULL lowdown on how they all compare to each other! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 ...(I see yet another "Elise Widow" in the offing here!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







)...
  
 And yes, I'm still amazed with my luck at not having to wrap anything around those anode wires...being sheathed in Teflon tubing would appear to be doing the trick, unless it's also down to my adapted base's internals vs those of MrsX's adapters...???? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...perhaps *both* lol......
  
 Now, less reading here, and more tube comparos!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...


----------



## UntilThen

I used to love running 6 pack with HE560, just as you are doing now with EL11 and 12.


----------



## UntilThen

Ha I'll be Dr. Frankenstein for one night. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   This is holographic, spacious and mountain top experience. Gosh I'm outdoing DL here.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
Is it possible to use the EF80 in the Elise? If so, what kind of adapter does it need?


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I used to love running 6 pack with HE560, just as you are doing now with EL11 and 12.


 
 I'd forgotten how good the HE sounds.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> Is it possible to use the EF80 in the Elise? If so, what kind of adapter does it need?


 
  
 There are no adapters for EF80 to 6SN7 but there is one for EF80 to 6SJ7 which is what LF339 uses.
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EF80-EF184-TO-6SJ7-Tube-converter-adapter-/201456257052?hash=item2ee7ba881c:g:7t8AAOSwo6lWP~kG
  
 I was looking at the tube data spec for EF80. It's 6.3 volt and 0.3 ampere. That looks like a possibility for usage in Elise but not sure how it will sound. If it sounds anything like it did in La Figaro 339 then it's certainly a great tone at a very low cost.
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ef80.html
  
 Perhaps @hypnos1  and @Oskari  can shed some light on whether this is ok for Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the Siemens EF80 that I have with the box. It's a beautiful looking small tube.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Ha I'll be Dr. Frankenstein for one night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


hypnos1 said:


> Yo UT...fingers crossed for perfect EL11 performance lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I would love to have more time but, as you mention, there's the wife to please- but mercifully at least the kids are away. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What I generally find is double the power tubes and the sound-stage gets bigger and more three dimensional, and there is a perceptible step up in volume with maybe better stereo imaging too. There's also more potential for hum and interference. In that respect I think your skill at making those adapters has handsomely paid off.
  
 As to those set-ups in the above photo I posted earlier today, the set-up with the spez powers and EL12 drivers is just a little warmer than with EL12N or EL12 powers.
  
 The set-up with 4 power tubes, a combo of EL11/12 per channel with spez drivers is very lively with huge sound-stage. I've been listening to Verdi's Requiem and the Dies Irae was amazing.
  
 That's enough for today's report. Now here's some of that Verdi:


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> This is all true of course, but at least the girls are home now, so they can console you.


 

 Somehow they seem more interested in "counseling" rather than "consoling"


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Somehow they seem more interested in "counseling" rather than "consoling"


 
  
 Haha that's because you've wrap your head around tubes. Pretty soon they'll send you to rehab.
  
 Man my ears have turn jelly from listening to EL12N and quad EL3N. It's surreal.
  
 Hey Pct, let's check in to rehab together. This is getting too intense even before Euforia's arrival.


----------



## HPLobster

Hm......in retrospective, over the last 1000-ish posts I keep reading EL 11 - this and EL 12 - that all over again ("no crap, Sherlock!" - who said that?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 So just to make shure I won´t blow my Elise up....:
 I can use EL12Ns as power and/or driver tubes. And EL12 or EL12spezials as power tubes. And EL11 as driver tubes. And all I need for every one of them (so basically four pieces) is this:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-EL11-EL12-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201726996830
  
  
  
  
  
 Despite having red eyes from reading, and still hearing my wallet next door crying itself to sleep, maaaaayyyyyyybe I should have a closer look....


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> Hm......in retrospective, over the last 1000-ish posts I keep reading EL 11 - this and EL 12 - that all over again ("no crap, Sherlock!" - who said that?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes that's the adapter for EL11/12
  
 There's no rule as to which of these tubes should be drivers or power tubes.
  
 The golden rule is the total heater current of all the tubes added together must not exceed 6.8A.
  
 One EL12 is 1.2A and one EL11 is 0.9 A


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Hm......in retrospective, over the last 1000-ish posts I keep reading EL 11 - this and EL 12 - that all over again ("no crap, Sherlock!" - who said that?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Lobster you need rehab too.


----------



## pctazhp

hplobster said:


> Hm......in retrospective, over the last 1000-ish posts I keep reading EL 11 - this and EL 12 - that all over again ("no crap, Sherlock!" - who said that?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The answer is a definite YES, NO and MAYBE. YES, you can use those tubes as you propose without coming close to exceeding FA's maximum heater current draw limit.
  
 The NO comes from the fact that none of these tubes are approved by FA, In fact I think at least for some of the tubes they have specifically said they operate outside of FA parameters (whatever that means) and they can't say these tubes don't somehow stress Elise and could result in problems in the future.
  
 The MAYBE is just about all of us throw caution to the wind and use these tubes anyway, figuring that many of the non-approved tubes commonly used in the past had the same potential problem and no one seems to have had much problem with exploding (or imploding) Elise.
  
 The spez requires this adapter http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-EL12-spez-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/192078856349?hash=item2cb8cac09d:g:ILsAAOSwjDZYezPA and there may be hum issues with it.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Haha that's because you've wrap your head around tubes. Pretty soon they'll send you to rehab.
> 
> Man my ears have turn jelly from listening to EL12N and quad EL3N. It's surreal.
> 
> Hey Pct, let's check in to rehab together. This is getting too intense even before Euforia's arrival.


 

 Don't tell me I have to drag out 4 EL3Ns and the adapters today??? I will definitely be checking into rehab with you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Here's the out-patent therapy I've been working on:


----------



## HPLobster

howie13 said:


> Yes that's the adapter for EL11/12
> 
> There's no rule as to which of these tubes should be drivers or power tubes.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


pctazhp said:


> The answer is a definite YES, NO and MAYBE. YES, you can use those tubes as you propose without coming close to exceeding FA's maximum heater current draw limit.
> 
> The NO comes from the fact that none of these tubes are approved by FA, In fact I think at least for some of the tubes they have specifically said they operate outside of FA parameters (whatever that means) and they can't say these tubes don't somehow stress Elise and could result in problems in the future.
> 
> The MAYBE is just about all of us throw caution to the wind and use these tubes anyway, figuring that many of the non-approved tubes commonly used in the past had the same potential problem and no one seems to have had much problem with exploding (or imploding) Elise.


 
  
  
  
 Thank you, guys! I feel a lot wiser now!
  
 As I mentioned before, I think I´ll have a closer look because...


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Lobster you need rehab too.


 
  
  
 HAHA, I know one shouldn´t mix business with leisure.... but the funny thing is that I work as a doctor.... in a rehab clinic.... am I supposed to laugh or cry now? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  
 Kind of reminds me of this:


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> The answer is a definite YES, NO and MAYBE. YES, you can use those tubes as you propose without coming close to exceeding FA's maximum heater current draw limit.
> 
> The NO comes from the fact that none of these tubes are approved by FA, In fact I think at least for some of the tubes they have specifically said they operate outside of FA parameters (whatever that means) and they can't say these tubes don't somehow stress Elise and could result in problems in the future.
> 
> ...


 
 Perfect answer-actually the way things are going I'm going to explode/implode with ELitis long before Elise does.


----------



## pctazhp

hplobster said:


> HAHA, I know one shouldn´t mix business with leisure.... but the funny thing is that I work as a doctor.... in a rehab clinic.... am I supposed to laugh or cry now?


 
 We all need to start crying, because if there is no hope for you, the rest of us are clearly doomed


----------



## richdytch

howie13 said:


> I'm holding off to learn how you all find Euforia. No Chinese amps for me just yet!
> 
> Meantime I'm enjoying rolling with Elise, who has been very resilient all these months-hasn't complained once.
> 
> ...




+1 For the Elise with the he400 Howie, it really does a great job. Not a perfect headphone by any measure, but a great one and the Elise really gets the best out of it, against all odds.


----------



## pctazhp

I really like EL12n as a driver. But I have this admittedly totally irrational thing in my mind that EL11 should be the driver and EL12 the power. Maybe that's because how things started out here with the EL11/12 tubes.
  
 Anyway, today I'm listening with EL11-ST/EL12-ST combo and it truly is wonderful. Natural, musical yet detailed, engaging and totally fatigue free. Right now I'm listening to Les Baxter and his orchestra, The Primitive & The Passionate, on Tidal Masters, and absolutely loving it.
  
 Girls are still asleep, so this is my quality time with myself and Elise


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> I really like EL12n as a driver. But I have this admittedly totally irrational thing in my mind that EL11 should be the driver and EL12 the power. Maybe that's because how things started out here with the EL11/12 tubes.
> 
> Anyway, today I'm listening with EL11-ST/EL12-ST combo and it truly is wonderful. Natural, musical yet detailed, engaging and totally fatigue free. Right now I'm listening to Les Baxter and his orchestra, The Primitive & The Passionate, on Tidal Masters, and absolutely loving it.
> 
> Girls are still asleep, so this is my quality time with myself and Elise


 
  
 Aahhh pct...yet another case of the "Merry-go-Round" that is our tube rolling...and can be *totally exasperating!* Why oh why do we torture ourselves so lol?!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(These EL11 and 12 families are proving to be the most exasperating _*ever...bar none!!*_





...(no wonder those catching up are going round and round in circles with these, poor things!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Another example being that @HOWIE13...you found the EL12 Spezial *warmer* in the power seat - in my setup it's the _*opposite*_*!!...*???...so, folks, be prepared for _*anything*_ if you decide to go "off piste" with _these_ tubes LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Aahhh pct...yet another case of the "Merry-go-Round" that is our tube rolling...and can be *totally exasperating!* Why oh why do we torture ourselves so lol?!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes and warmer as a driver compared to EL12 and EL12N -but it's not a huge difference, just a tad. Only my personal hearing, as ever.
  
 Could be differences in the manufacturing and burning in of tubes, DAC''s, our brains (heaven forbid), maybe ears-no that's too silly of me-we all have golden ears, don't we? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Actually, maybe it's just that there are so many excellent combos to discover here it's natural, in adventurous enthusiasm, to swop the tubes around faster than perhaps normal, particularly as the even better Euforia is beckoning just round the corner.
  
 Afterthought: Whatever ways I've swapped them around I can say I've not heard a bad or even mediocre sound from any of these EL11/12/spez combos, yet.
                    I could happily live with any of them- essentially all excellent.


----------



## Frederick Rea

pctazhp said:


> _*The answer is a definite YES, NO and MAYBE. YES, you can use those tubes as you propose without coming close to exceeding FA's maximum heater current draw limit.*_
> 
> _*The NO comes from the fact that none of these tubes are approved by FA, In fact I think at least for some of the tubes they have specifically said they operate outside of FA parameters (whatever that means) and they can't say these tubes don't somehow stress Elise and could result in problems in the future.*_
> 
> ...


 
 THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT AND BINDING. Thank you @pctazhp


----------



## Frederick Rea

Hello everyone.
 I would like to have opinions from these eminent audiophiles, on this: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/demagic_e.html.
 I have this CD but I can not get a consistent judgment. Does it have any result? Sorry my ignorance


----------



## HPLobster

So far so good: I just ordered the whole adapter-madness....estimated date of delivery: Between March 20th and April 20th -> insert sound of balloon deflating here
Well, this oughta put a dampener on this TUBE-FRENZY over here



  
 At least I can now actually enjoy the current setting to the fullest....and the Valvo/Mullard 6080s have yet to arrive...


----------



## pctazhp

frederick rea said:


> Hello everyone.
> I would like to have opinions from these eminent audiophiles, on this: http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/demagic_e.html.
> I have this CD but I can not get a consistent judgment. Does it have any result? Sorry my ignorance


 

 While waiting for the eminent audiophiles to show up, you'll have to settle for a response from this eminent audiofool. Back in the day when I thought of myself as an audiophile I chased a lot of products like this. All this led me to the conclusion that most, if not all, of this kind of stuff is snake oil. Millions of words have been spilled over the decades by people arguing over all kind of crazy theories, ideas and products. For example see: http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/peter-belt
  
 I have no idea if the particular product you are asking about works. I guess there is some chance that it might. At least it isn't something you keep in your refrigerator to transform your audio system. At the price it may be worth a try if for no other reason than to see for yourself. If it produces miraculous results please let us know


----------



## richard89

untilthen said:


> Richard !!! Feel free to get it off your chest anytime.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Right now they are my favorite, as well as the 6 pack EL3N, the only problem I have with it is the slight hum that it gives which doesn't take away from enjoyment, but makes me question the stability of the Elise due to the variance of performance of tubes within each individual Elise. On that note, I'd also like to mention that the Sylvania 6SN7WGT Brown Base and K-R VT-231 gives my amp trouble.. The Sylvania has bad left channel popping issues, while the KR VT-231 will just go out on the left channel while I'm playing music. I think it could be the tube that I'm using -- all the K-R VT-231 had cracked bases and I purchased them at a very low price...  so that could be the reason but I don't really have the will to go and purchase a new pairs.


----------



## Oskari

I'm not an eminent audiophile but that thing is still poppycock.


----------



## HOWIE13

richard89 said:


> Right now they are my favorite, as well as the 6 pack EL3N, the only problem I have with it is the slight hum that it gives which doesn't take away from enjoyment, but makes me question the stability of the Elise due to the variance of performance of tubes within each individual Elise. On that note, I'd also like to mention that the Sylvania 6SN7WGT Brown Base and K-R VT-231 gives my amp trouble.. The Sylvania has bad left channel popping issues, while the KR VT-231 will just go out on the left channel while I'm playing music. I think it could be the tube that I'm using -- all the K-R VT-231 had cracked bases and I purchased them at a very low price...  so that could be the reason but I don't really have the will to go and purchase a new pairs.


 
  
 I recognise the problem you are having with your Sylvanias and K-R.
  
 The problem is in the tubes and if you are lucky a good clean up of the pins, which I expect you have already done, might solve the problem.
  
 If not, you sadly have bad tubes and I wouldn't put them back into Elise as they could damage your headphones or even the amp.
  
 The EL3N hum is a known issue with some tubes and isn't confined to Elise.
  
 From what I understand and my own limited experience, a lot depends on the mains supply as well as interference from adjacent equipment. I doubt if it's to do with Elise's stability, otherwise we would have evidence of a lot more variability of the amp's performance and Elise does seem to perform very consistently across the world, at least from reading these threads. Unfortunately some tubes just hum, whatever.
  
 I'm sorry about those K-R's, very cheap though they were. The cracked bases were inauspicious, but worth the try.
  
 It may be possible to find the clear glass version of the K-R VT231, which is often cheaper than the black glass ones as they are not always recognised for what they are. Make sure the plates are staggered. If they are not staggered they are not identical to the black glass and have inferior sound quality.


----------



## HPLobster

Speaking of enjoyment: I recently had a moment of personal musical truth and bliss through my current setting I want to share. 
  
  
  
 I was listening to the classic recording of "Mood Indigo" from Duke Ellington when the wonderful feeling of cosy harmonic hypnosis attuned, we all are so aware of. It´s only showing a brief manifestation when genuine synergy arises. A musical epiphany and a first real moment of "Elise/HD800"-revelation for me...
  
 https://listen.tidal.com/album/2859485


----------



## HPLobster

BTW I still refuse to regard the PsVane-6SN7 as "stock", a term with overall very negative connotations, since
 a) the improvement over my actual stock-TungSols was significant and 
 b) now that I gather more experience regarding tube-prices, I realise that I paid a FORTUNE on them


----------



## mordy

HI FR,
  
 The review you provided on your special CD is from 2001 - surely there has to be some consensus since then, but I would personally put it in the snake oil category.
  
 Do you remember when you had to color the edges of the CDs with a special green marker? Improved this and that.........


----------



## mordy

I really enjoy my current set-up: Two 40's TFK EL11 and a pair of EL6 tubes. There is a special glow to the midrange. Still waiting for someone to come up with a cashe of new EL6 tubes for a reasonable price so other people can try them.
  
 "*EL6 *- All the advantages of EL12 tubes without any of the disadvantages"


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> Right now they are my favorite, as well as the 6 pack EL3N, the only problem I have with it is the slight hum that it gives which doesn't take away from enjoyment, but makes me question the stability of the Elise due to the variance of performance of tubes within each individual Elise. On that note, I'd also like to mention that the Sylvania 6SN7WGT Brown Base and K-R VT-231 gives my amp trouble.. The Sylvania has bad left channel popping issues, while the KR VT-231 will just go out on the left channel while I'm playing music. I think it could be the tube that I'm using -- all the K-R VT-231 had cracked bases and I purchased them at a very low price...  so that could be the reason but I don't really have the will to go and purchase a new pairs.


 
  
 Try resetting the contacts of your EL3N adapters. See this.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/13305#post_13262676


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> +1 For the Elise with the he400 Howie, it really does a great job. Not a perfect headphone by any measure, but a great one and the Elise really gets the best out of it, against all odds.


 
  
 Another case of Elise the Miss OTL amp working well with planar magnetics? That is really against all odds.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> Is it possible to use the EF80 in the Elise? If so, what kind of adapter does it need?


 
  
 It will be the kind of adapter from Mrs X. Since H1 and Oskari wants nothing to do with this, I'll have to write to Mrs Xu Ling to get an adapter made for EF80 to 6SN7 and be the guinea pig.
  
 I can't believe there will be another adapter in my life !!! This will be the laaaassssst.


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> So far so good: I just ordered the whole adapter-madness....estimated date of delivery: Between March 20th and April 20th -> insert sound of balloon deflating here
> Well, this oughta put a dampener on this TUBE-FRENZY over here
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well Doctor, am I glad that you are adapting to the adapter-madness. After the first adapter, the rest of the adapters will be less painful. 
  
 Have not included the 6A6 to 6SN7 and C3G to 6SN7 and dual EL3N to 6SN7 there. It's still in my drawer !!!

  
 Oh 6A6 to 6SN7 adapter is in the photo... I'm pretty confused now.


----------



## mordy

What is the blue one?


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Richard !!! Feel free to get it off your chest anytime. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> So EL3N and EL12N is your fav now? You are going to make @aqsw
> and @Oskari
> ...




Im running that setup, and I'm not changing. It sounds fantastic and I'm not chasing tubes anymore. My dac is done now with the KT120s Just bought a music server.
I think I will just enjoy the music from now on.i


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> What is the blue one?


 
  
 6SN7 to 6922    It's for my Aune T1 tube DAC.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Im running that setup, and I'm not changing. It sounds fantastic and I'm not chasing tubes anymore. My dac is done now with the KT120s Just bought a music server.
> I think I will just enjoy the music from now on.i


 
  
 Absolutely AQ. You just enjoy music from now on. You don't need more..... wait you are getting Euforia soon.
  
 Good lord those KT120 are mean looking.


----------



## aqsw

Early March, supposedly for the Euforia.


----------



## aqsw

If anyone is loking for a music server, I just bought one from Musical Paradise.I don't usually buy Chinese but there are a lot of very good reviews about this company. Price is very good and astheticaly will match very well with the Euforia and my DAC. I got the 240 ssd with 1TB drive.

Do a search for MP- BERRY V2


----------



## UntilThen

Looks interesting that Berry.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Looks interesting that Berry.




I was pretty impressed. When it comes to servers, cables are very important. I bought their usb cable and have a very good power cord waiting for it's arrival.


----------



## DecentLevi

Quote: Originally Posted by *hypnos1* 

  
 I don't really know how to do this gently, but there's no point my _not_ telling it how it is...I'm afraid my own experience differs a good bit from your own alas...but then, different equipment, of course. And I'm pretty sure I kept an open mind, despite my previous statements about possible doubts compared to my mesh plate drivers and 12 Spezials...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  
 (...)
 I am so sorry if I'm pouring cold water on anyone here, but I must stress that my comments are purely _relative_...the EL12Ns are still extremely good performers as drivers. It's just that they do not match my own particular setup in ways that are important to _*me*_...but everyone has their own preferences, of course, which is how it should be lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  




 Indeed quite rare to hear something you disagree on among the group, but what's more is I'm agreeing with you too, H1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . Though maybe not your exact take on them, I generally find the EL12n's moderately bright leaning and borderlining thin, and somewhat behind the bass definition / quantity of ST-shaped EL12's I've tried. Otherwise they are still a cut above many power tubes and great especially for dark recordings IMO. 
  
 Quote:  Originally Posted by *hypnos1* 


  
 ... In the absence of Euforia owners other than myself, they (especially @connieflyer, @UntilThen and @pctazhp) have injected a good deal of _*fun *_here, whilst awaiting their own amps. _*Private*_ 'disagreement' is fine..._*Public*_ (even if only implied) is _*not*_...and is most certainly not in the spirit of how I hope this thread will continue...




 This was regarding an earlier mention of mine about these threads being off topic. I didn't mean to be too negative, but just had to mention that sometimes when you're busy like on a hectic day or especially during short work breaks browsing HeadFi on your mobile, it becomes quite burdensome to sift through off topic banter when you're trying to find something relevant to read about. Though IMO, the occasional joke is interesting. I must admit I was quite perplexed by the above at first, but now I get you must have been suggesting not to post disagreements putting down group interests, rather than barring any disagreement on the F-A threads... because we all know how boring any forum would be if we all had the same views, LOL... and how debating is actually encouraged on Head-Fi. Because I'm certain diversity of ideas is what keeps great forums like these alive.
  

  
 Similar to how we're all of a different age, culture, location and even color, we also have our own hearing perception, hearing ability, state(s) of mind, and especially up/downstream gear, so it's no wonder there's such diversity of opinions.
  
 Quote: Originally Posted by *hypnos1* 

  
 Hi sv...as UT says, he was very happy with how his particular planars sounded in Elise, and given F-A say that Euforia has 10 to 20% more power output, I should imagine it will drive them even better lol!...(and I think that may well have been before the upgraded transformer decision, so things are looking very hopeful indeed for cans other than the 'ideal' high-impedance dynamics. F-A did from the off do everything possible to perform better with low-z cans than is usually the case with OTL amps...).
  




  
 Sorry but something about the way this was written completely threw me for a curve-ball. Somehow I had first read it to mean that both F-A amps were designed to perform better with low-Z cans... must have been focusing on the last sentence, and it took me about 8 reads to get your that inference of 'planars' and 'dynamics' refer to headphone driver type. And believe it or not, on occasion I have difficulty with expressions from British English, which I believe is much closer to Australian English, and is somewhat different from American English; such as the time I had to look up the word 'alas' in the dictionary. 
  
 On the above topic I do see Elises' strength in the 32-300 ohm headphone range, though would also be interested to test higher-Z cans as well if I can, so I may be convinced otherwise. And of course all my posts (as well as most anybody's for that matter) is all "IMO", which I think of as more than just "in my opinion", but also from "my own experience" / current knowledge as well. My points may not always be founded in proven science, but at least I can put in "my two cents" as the way I see something at the time, so at least the new user can gain a variety of opinions. These are personal opinions, and should not be misconstrued as 'misinformation'... And boy come to think of it, the opinions / knowledge of every single forum member I can think of including every one of you do a staggering amount of evolving / changing as the days / years go by.
  
 I hold no ill will towards any of you including you H1, and I do find the _occasional_ off topic posts to be interesting. I think this is a great community with interesting times ahead and we're still learning from each other not only about home hi-fi equipment but also about people skills, which have always been one of my limitations for personal reasons, that make me a bit of a space case.


----------



## HPLobster

aqsw said:


> Im running that setup, and I'm not changing. It sounds fantastic and I'm not chasing tubes anymore. My dac is done now with the KT120s Just bought a music server.
> I think I will just enjoy the music from now on.i


 
  
 I don´t know you, Sir, but the denial here is so obvious. All I´m reading between the lines is "I WANT MORE TUBES" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  
 Just kidding... 
 May I ask you if you are satisfied with your Elise+PM-3 - combo? I didn´t have the chance to try them together yet...


----------



## aqsw

hplobster said:


> I don´t know you, Sir, but the denial here is so obvious. All I´m reading between the lines is "I WANT MORE TUBES"
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The PM3s sound very good with the Elise. I need closed for my office and am very happy with them. They don't compare to the Ether Cs, but I only use them at work and they dont
Get critical listening, as I'm always being disturbed.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Well Doctor, am I glad that you are adapting to the adapter-madness. After the first adapter, the rest of the adapters will be less painful.
> 
> Have not included the 6A6 to 6SN7 and C3G to 6SN7 and dual EL3N to 6SN7 there. It's still in my drawer !!!
> 
> ...


 
  
 We are all collectors, aren´t we? Just ask my wife about it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 PS: That´s not my wife.


----------



## mordy

Today's mystery tube: EL11 E
  




  





Does anybody know what it is? All I can find out is that it has the German octal base, it is a pentode and uses 6.3V.


----------



## Oskari

RMorg: "EL84 oder EL41 auf Adaptersockel zum Ersatz der EL11."

Looks like EL84.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> The PM3s sound very good with the Elise. I need closed for my office and am very happy with them. They don't compare to the Ether Cs, but I only use them at work and they dont
> Get critical listening, as I'm always being disturbed.




Thank you AQ. I'm keeping a count of those who love their planar magnetics with Elise. The list is getting longer.


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> We are all collectors, aren´t we? Just ask my wife about it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I was going to say your wife looks really happy. )))


----------



## pctazhp

With malice towards none and a song in my heart, I bid good night to one and all


----------



## UntilThen

Still no reply from Mrs X on ef80 to 6sn7 adapter.

Even Mrs Adapter cannot keep up with our requests.


----------



## aqsw

I know computers and servers are becoming redundant nowadays with Tidal, Spotify, etc., but I'm old school. I have about 600 gb of music (mostly 320). , so if my wi fi
ever goes down, I will be prepared.

Plus, it looks cool.


----------



## DecentLevi

I've never used Tidal or the likes at home, and also have 0 interest in Spotify or Last.fm for reasons of lossy bitrates. I have even complained to FreeMusicArchive that all their streams are in 128k quality. 100% of all my music is on the hard drive including FLAC, DSD (.DSF format), AAC and MP3, also some occasional CD's. The lossy formats are because they're unique recordings of college radio shows online.
  
 I actually create a playlist of several hundred hours of songs that I will listen to over the course of the next month or so, in about 2 hour chunks according to genre, and go through them in order so I don't have to change tubes too much on the Elise - because for me I generally like a different combo according to the genre or even the way the album was mastered. No freedom to _choose_ the music I'm in the mood for other than what I already set, but what can I say, it's a little like assigned marriages


----------



## UntilThen

Mrs Xu Ling replied regarding the EF80 to 6SN7 adapters. She reckons EF86 is better. Well I know that from the LF339 thread but I wanted an adapter to try out with my Siemens and Mullard EF80 on Elise first.
  
 She has made the EF86 to 6SN7 adapters.
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-Mullard-EF86-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/191806012852?hash=item2ca8877db4:g:nNMAAOSwExJXozXO
  
 She will also make the EF80 to 6SN7 adapter upon my request.
  
 Now this is uncharted territory. EF80 and EF86 have not been tried in Elise as drivers before. I suggest you let me try it first. *However if you so choose to proceed first on your own, you do so at your own risk. *


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I know computers and servers are becoming redundant nowadays with Tidal, Spotify, etc., but I'm old school. I have about 600 gb of music (mostly 320). , so if my wi fi
> ever goes down, I will be prepared.
> 
> Plus, it looks cool.


 
  
 Tidal HiFi is very good. I have HD Tracks as well as flac files all ripped from my 300 plus CD. A lot of these are from the Chesky labels. I find Tidal HiFi as good as those.
  
 Now the thing to watch out for is MQA on Tidal.


----------



## Spork67

> On the above topic I do see Elises' strength in the 32-300 ohm headphone range, though would also be interested to test higher-Z cans as well if I can, so I may be convinced otherwise.


 
  
 For heaven's sake DL.
 FA specify Elise as suitable for 32 - 600 ohm cans.
 MANY of us use / have used 600z cans with Elise and LOVE the results.
 You refuse to believe what we have ALL experienced with this combination.
  
 So please, do yourself, and the rest of us a favour:
  
 Beg, borrow or steal some Beyer T1's.
 Plug them into Elise.
 Enjoy!


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> For heaven's sake DL.
> FA specify Elise as suitable for 32 - 600 ohm cans.
> MANY of us use / have used 600z cans with Elise and LOVE the results.
> You refuse to believe what we have ALL experienced with this combination.
> ...


 
  
 Hehehe


----------



## HOWIE13

OMG- tidal waves, spotify, dsd.dsf, bits and other stuff.  I just use CD and occasional FLAC.  Life's complicated enough with tubes without all this. 
  





 and too old, and lazy, to learn any more.


----------



## connieflyer

It is not hard to learn Howie13 with plenty of time on my hands I ripped all my old CDs to FLAC files and have them on a separate server plus backups for everything the nice thing with the digital format it's easy to make backups of everything and keep them in a secure spot from the rest of the collection. Besides if I didn't do that I'd have too much time on my hands and PCT would insist I chase other aliens instead. Oops wasting your time again.


----------



## pctazhp

Alas, I had a horrible nightmare last night. I dreamed HeadFi hired me to translate Australian into English and I couldn't keep up with all of UT's posts (((((
  
 I don't know why, but this song has been going through my head recently.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> It is not hard to learn Howie13 with plenty of time on my hands I ripped all my old CDs to FLAC files and have them on a separate server plus backups for everything the nice thing with the digital format it's easy to make backups of everything and keep them in a secure spot from the rest of the collection. Besides if I didn't do that I'd have too much time on my hands and PCT would insist I chase other aliens instead. Oops wasting your time again.


 

 Actually, I don't mind you wasting my time nearly as much as all the FLAC you give me online 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Keeping this on topic, I had a bad experience with a server yesterday. He spilled an entire pitcher of water on me as we were sitting down for lunch at my favorite restaurant.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> It is not hard to learn Howie13 with plenty of time on my hands I ripped all my old CDs to FLAC files and have them on a separate server plus backups for everything the nice thing with the digital format it's easy to make backups of everything and keep them in a secure spot from the rest of the collection. Besides if I didn't do that I'd have too much time on my hands and PCT would insist I chase other aliens instead. Oops wasting your time again.


 
 You never waste my time,CF  and thanks for your advice.
  
 A few years ago I did manage to rip some of my favourite music to FLAC to play on my Fiio's when 'on the move'.
  
 Problem is I don't move much any more so I rarely use them.
  
 It's all this new stuff that has me bewildered.
  
 Ah well, back to the couch and Elise, both of which are very familiar to me.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## connieflyer

Excuse me if I waste even more of your valuable time PCT but perhaps he was just cooling off your ardor 4 things that you could not have. Okay back on topic. Which by the way what is it?


----------



## connieflyer

Well in that case having you rip all your CDs to FLAC will get you up and moving and as you can see that will make you healthy wealthy and wise. Although if you stay around here I'm not so sure about the lies part!!!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Excuse me if I waste even more of your valuable time PCT but perhaps he was just cooling off your ardor 4 things that you could not have. Okay back on topic. *Which by the way what is it?*


 
  
 We were discussing hard lessons learned in life.
  
 For example, I assume you know about the Tahitian king who ruled from a thatched palace. He was a modest sort of king and eschewed the trappings of royalty his predecessor had accumulated. He even went as far as to move the giant golden throne into the attic. Unfortunately, during a particularly severe storm the throne fell through the ceiling directly on top of the poor king, killing him immediately.
  
 The moral of this story of course is that people who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.
  
 And if anyone accuses me of wasting time, I will consider it a personal affront.


----------



## connieflyer

I must admit, that after that, I may have to re-evaluate my march of time, it suddenly changed from quick march to down for 10 on the grinder!  This was better than most of the moral offerings from you, on that I congratulate you!


----------



## vl4dimir

Now that I swap my HD650 for a HD800, I was wondering if there is a consensus about which tubes sounds best with the HD800 SDR/HD800S ? Currently running EL12N+EL3N


----------



## pctazhp

vl4dimir said:


> Now that I swap my HD650 for a HD800, I was wondering if there is a consensus about which tubes sounds best with the HD800 SDR/HD800S ? Currently running EL12N+EL3N


 

 I think there may be somewhat different recommendations for HD800 Classic and HD800S. I've never heard the Classic. For my S I have found many combinations that I really have liked. The S can probably handle tubes tilted toward treble maybe a little better than the Classic. Thus some of the straight bottle power tubes such as GEC 6080 and Bendix 6080 have worked well for me, running with Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7WGT. But with the Sylvania drivers the bottle shaped TS5998 and GEC 6AS7G also sound good as powers.
  
 I have come to the conclusion over the past month or so that a combination of the EL11 and EL12 tubes that have gained prominence here recently are probably the best for a broad range of different headphones and personal preferences. They are not always easy to find and it does require some in depth study of recent posts to make good purchasing decisions, but I think it is worth the effort rather than going through what, at least I have, in buying a lot of expensive tubes that I will probably never use again now that I've acquired some 2 really nice EL12 pairs and a very nice EL11 pair.
  
 I know this is pretty general. I'm sure many of us will be happy to answer any specific questions. And the above is just my personal opinion, but I did want to provide you some answer since you were asking about HD800.
  
 Oh, I guess I should say that the combination you are currently running is probably a very good combination for the Classic. If you find a German, round plate EL11 driver it is probably be a little less warm and perhaps slightly more detailed than the EL3N driver you are now using. But you may already have your holy grail )))))


----------



## connieflyer

Well spoken PCT, very good english on this post. Easy to understand without any inflection, you are learning real well. Almost as good as the King's English!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Well spoken PCT, very good english on this post. Easy to understand without any inflection, you are learning real well. Almost as good as the King's English!


 

 So I done good????


----------



## connieflyer

You have got a handle on it now, you have been there , done that!


----------



## UntilThen

Guys please stay on topic. Let me show you how it's done.


----------



## connieflyer

I still am not clear on how it is done, do you have anymore of these "instructional videos"?


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I still am not clear on how it is done, do you have anymore of these "instructional videos"?


 
  
 CF just follow the movements in the video. Get Conner in the groove too.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> CF just follow the movements in the video. Get Conner in the groove too.


 

 OK UT. I think this is on topic. I am hoping you fully appreciate the responsibility that will be on your shoulders when you audition the Elear and Utopia. If you report that Utopia is the Sir Edmund Hillary Summit of all headphones, I won't know peace until I have one. And unfortunately I won't be able to get one until the $4,000 price drops to $375.50 (((((


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> OK UT. I think this is on topic. I am hoping you fully appreciate the responsibility that will be on your shoulders when you audition the Elear and Utopia. If you report that Utopia is the Sir Edmund Hillary Summit of all headphones, I won't know peace until I have one. And unfortunately I won't be able to get one until the $4,000 price drops to $375.50 (((((


 
  
 I'm bias. I chose Dynaudio over Focals for my car audio. So it's unlikely I'll endorse Utopia. 
  
 Unless they let me take a pair home for keeps.


----------



## connieflyer

If they do you will have to share among the group we will pay shipping you know back and forth


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> If they do you will have to share among the group we will pay shipping you know back and forth


 
  
 I'll share the V-Monk Plus. It can get shipped around the world.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> OMG- tidal waves, spotify, dsd.dsf, bits and other stuff.  I just use CD and occasional FLAC.  Life's complicated enough with tubes without all this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Y'know, H13...folks sometimes forget the simple fact that the final result will always come down to the sort of job the recording engineer performed in the first place lol! I have some standard CD quality fare (especially such as the "Enhanced" discs of Loreena McKennitt, for example) that sounds *much* better than some 'hi-res'. And I'm not the only one to say this..._*by far!!!*_  Things are by no means "cut and dried" still in this debate LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


pctazhp said:


> So I done good????


 
  
 You dun' _real_ good, man!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


untilthen said:


> I'm bias. I chose Dynaudio over Focals for my car audio. So it's unlikely I'll endorse Utopia.
> 
> Unless they let me take a pair home for keeps.


 
  
 I like your "unlikely", UT...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...now go get Dynaudio to make some nice cans lol...there's a good boy!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...either that, or I'll have to bolt together my own Dynaudios a la Abyss!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...Dang, I've mislaid my hoist! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

Ummm EF80 has an amplification of 50 and EF86 has 38 in triode mode. 
  
 C3g has 40?
  
 Straight off wiki
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF86
  
 ah ha...
  
_Unlike many pentodes it was designed specifically for audio applications, low noise and low microphony being claimed advantages_


----------



## aqsw

After all the T1 hype, I have decided to try them again. I did have a used set for a day or two and sent them back as I was very unhappy with the condition of them.
 I just bought another used pair here on head fi. I will try  the T1s again. I'm hoping the Euforia will love them!!!


----------



## UntilThen

AQ listening carefully and the T1 will move you. 

Need to get used to it if you're coming from Ether-C. Don't write it off after 10 bars.


----------



## richard89

Something has happened to my Elise guys. I tried to clean out the contact pin for my EL3N adapter yesterday and the plastic at the bottom broke. I very stupidly still inserted the EL3N into the adapter into the tube and noticed the broken adapter was not working correctly because the left channel would not work. Today I put in the RFT EL12N and EL11 into the amp and noticed the Telefunken EL11 getting very sensitive to outside noise. Tapping on a table from different surface would cause noise disturbance. I tried these EL11 with various other combos and it seems it's just these tubes that make my amp sensitive. Then I tried the RFT EL12N  with the TS 6SN7 (stock tubes) and noticed that the left channel has a slight pop every now and then which is very annoying. I think that tubes that I have put in before like the KR-VT231 or Sylvania 6SNS7WGT may have caused permanent damage to the Elise because they were bad tubes. I'm very wary about trying new tubes in the Elise now. The thing is that the EL11's were working  perfectly with any combinations before.


----------



## richard89

howie13 said:


> I recognise the problem you are having with your Sylvanias and K-R.
> 
> The problem is in the tubes and if you are lucky a good clean up of the pins, which I expect you have already done, might solve the problem.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Howie, I didn't really mean stability of the Elise more like the stability of the tubes with the Elise. Right now I might just be flipping out but it seems there are several things going wrong with mine but I just inserted the Sylvania 6SN7 with the RFTEL12N and it seems to be running smoothly so far. It's just I tried a few combinations in a row from last night till today and everything was seeming downhill and I wonder if I did something wrong.


----------



## mordy

Hi richard89,
  
 Let me understand what happened first - did the middle guide pin break off? Or did something else break off on the adapter?


----------



## richard89

mordy said:


> Hi richard89,
> 
> Let me understand what happened first - did the middle guide pin break off? Or did something else break off on the adapter?




It was when I was trying to get the contact points out again on the EL3N adapter and ended up poking a square thru the plastic part, revealing the green hardware beneath.

Then I tried to put in the EL11 with the quad EL3N and the Elise got so sensitive to outside noise. I would tap my desk slightly and the left channel would act up(or pick up disturbance) which wasn't the case before. These aren't the ones that is used in this thread, they are more circular and are straight compared to the TFK11 in this thread.

But I'm sure it's unrelated to anything and just my luck with combinations, but it seems like whenever an issue occurs it's in the left channel which I believe happened with the bad tubes I put in that caused it, but it's starting to worry me a little. Right now I have the sylvania 6sn7 in with the rft el12n and thank God Elise is working with no problems for 2 hours


----------



## mordy

Hi r89,
  
 I don't have any experience with the problems you describe, but it happened a couple of times that my Elise "just didn't sound right."
  
 I would give it a rest overnight or so, and then try with stock tubes or something similar. Afterwards, if everything sounds fine, I would put back whatever set-up I had, and usually the amp would come back to itself.
  
 Once a tube shorted out because of a faulty Chinese adapter, and the Elise just shut down for a good half hour - the protective circuitry kicked in. Not understanding what was going on, I tried that tube in another amp, and one channel promptly got fried since that amp did not have the protective circuitry.
  
 My gut feeling is that your amp will come back to itself - just give it a little time.


----------



## richard89

mordy said:


> Hi r89,
> 
> I don't have any experience with the problems you describe, but it happened a couple of times that my Elise "just didn't sound right."
> 
> ...




Thanks mordy. You know I took the TFK EL11 out of the adapter and I smelled some burning smell, like it had been fried or something. The pins looked a little burned as well as I had to wipe some black off it, and this is the EL11 adapter. Do you think the adapter just crapped out on me?


----------



## HOWIE13

@richard89
  
 Can you post a photo of the damaged EL3N adapter? If the hole is where I think it is I don't think the paddle pin on the tube will be able to make a secure connection but I'm not sure I've understood you exactly. Thanks.


----------



## UntilThen

I too find my TFK EL11 very microphonic. I've never had tubes so microphonic before and I have a lot of tubes. The slightest tap of the desk creates feedback. The tubes were not humming initially but gradually one of them started humming very faintly and that bothered me because none of my tubes hum. Nada, nope, zip.
  
 They aren't cheap too at $100 for a NOS pair. This is a nice photo of it. I've send it to H1. I want nothing to do with it again. Instead of listening to music, I'm listening out for hum.


----------



## UntilThen

There are lots of combinations that sounds great on Elise. I don't believe in just one combination. Whatever tubes you use, Elise sound signature is still there. Nimble and quick, she has the finesse of a ballet dancer and the power of a quarterback. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'm going to do a quick recap of all my favourite combinations in Elise. I'll feature one everyday and just talk very briefly of the tone. It will be short and sharp. I have no intention of putting anyone or myself to sleep with a long writeup. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 To kick it off, here is the earliest of the stellar combo.
  
*C3G/s and Tung Sol 5998*
  
 I always return to this combo because it's special. It's the most revealing and most dynamic of all the combos. It even make my modded HD650 sound like a million bucks. So if you need a combo to light up the darkest night and the most sombre monastery, try this setup on Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

7 ef86 to 6sn7 adapters sold. 

Looks like someone will test ef86 on Elise for me.


----------



## Frederick Rea

untilthen said:


> There are lots of combinations that sounds great on Elise. I don't believe in just one combination. Whatever tubes you use, Elise sound signature is still there. Nimble and quick, she has the finesse of a ballet dancer and the power of a quarterback.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Here we have 2 pairs (2xTS5998+2xC3g) with almost the double of gain (each) than the stock ones. This could be the secret for the transparency and powerfulness of the sound (somewhat a little bit excess on HF's)


----------



## richard89




----------



## richard89

Hey UT mine started becoming very microphonic as well but I would tap on my desk at 3 feet away and on another layer of the desk and the noise would still pick up. There was also a constant hum noise which I did not cause and would play at intervals of 3 seconds when it first started happening. I don't think I could experiment much longer with these tubes. It makes me feel like damage is being done to the Elise.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> There are lots of combinations that sounds great on Elise. I don't believe in just one combination. Whatever tubes you use, Elise sound signature is still there. Nimble and quick, she has the finesse of a ballet dancer and the power of a quarterback.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm starting a list of your daily posts, so you had better do a very good job. You are making history.


----------



## HOWIE13

richard89 said:


>


 
 I don't think the 3 pins adjacent to the hole could make proper contact so I'm not surprised there was a problem.
  
 I can't begin to imagine how such a hole could come about by just removing the tube. Maybe you could send the photo to the seller and see if they have any ideas or would send you another adapter.
 There may be a weakness in the plastic-can't be sure how that happened, but I wouldn't attempt to use it.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> I don't think the 3 pins adjacent to the hole could make proper contact so I'm not surprised there was a problem.
> 
> I can't begin to imagine how such a hole could come about by just removing the tube. Maybe you could send the photo to the seller and see if they have any ideas or would send you another adapter.
> There may be a weakness in the plastic-can't be sure how that happened, but I wouldn't attempt to use it.


 

 Howie. He said: "It was when I was trying to get the contact points out again on the EL3N adapter and ended up poking a square thru the plastic part, revealing the green hardware beneath."
  
 I agree with you. I wouldn't let something that looked like that near my precious Elise ))


----------



## HOWIE13

pctazhp said:


> Howie. He said: "It was when I was trying to get the contact points out again on the EL3N adapter and ended up poking a square thru the plastic part, revealing the green hardware beneath."
> 
> I agree with you. I wouldn't let something that looked like that near my precious Elise ))


 
 Ah yes-my bad, thanks.


----------



## pctazhp

LOVE THE GLOW


----------



## UntilThen

frederick rea said:


> Here we have 2 pairs (2xTS5998+2xC3g) with almost the double of gain (each) than the stock ones. This could be the secret for the transparency and powerfulness of the sound (somewhat a little bit excess on HF's)


 
  
 You know the saying, 'No pain no gain.... so no gain no ..... '  you can finish the sentence.


----------



## vl4dimir

After you guys have praised so much the EL11 I would like to try if someone (from europe preferentially) has a spare pair+adaptors to sell, pm me 
  
 p.S: We should put on first page a summary of all the most praised tubes with the Elise because I find difficult to find every information about a tube on the thread (just an idea)


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *I'm starting a list of your daily posts, so you had better do a very good job*. You are making history.


 
  
 CNN made more than a post everyday, whether it's good or bad posts. I'm allowed some leeway too.


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> Hey UT mine started becoming very microphonic as well but I would tap on my desk at 3 feet away and on another layer of the desk and the noise would still pick up. *There was also a constant hum noise which I did not cause and would play at intervals of 3 seconds when it first started happening.* I don't think I could experiment much longer with these tubes. It makes me feel like damage is being done to the Elise.


 
  
 Aliens are contacting you. Learn to decipher the morse code. 
  
 Richard how did you cause so much damage to the adapter? I say to gently create a fulcrum action with a small screw driver. Just buy another adapter and keep the EL11 framed up on a wall.


----------



## pctazhp

vl4dimir said:


> After you guys have praised so much the EL11 I would like to try if someone (from europe preferentially) has a spare pair+adaptors to sell, pm me
> 
> *p.S: We should put on first page a summary of all the most praised tubes with the Elise because I find difficult to find every information about a tube on the thread (just an idea)*


 
  
 I agree with you. If anyone has a post with some good summaries I can link to on my first post, please send it to me, although I will have to decide whether I want to add it to the first post.
  
 With UT's consent I can post my list of his forthcoming summary posts and keep it updated.


----------



## UntilThen

vl4dimir said:


> After you guys have praised so much the EL11 I would like to try if someone (from europe preferentially) has a spare pair+adaptors to sell, pm me
> 
> p.S: We should put on first page a summary of all the most praised tubes with the Elise because I find difficult to find every information about a tube on the thread (just an idea)


 
  
 Hello Dimir, get a notebook and note down the post number of my daily edition. 
  
 Wait Pct read my mind. You have my permission but I had better be careful with what I write now. It's no joke making front page news.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi richard89,
> 
> Let me understand what happened first - did the middle guide pin break off? Or did something else break off on the adapter?


 
  
 LOL Mordy, we're all wondering too what Richard did to the dun adapter.


----------



## UntilThen

So to keep @connieflyer entertain daily, here's my contribution for today.


----------



## richard89

untilthen said:


> Aliens are contacting you. Learn to decipher the morse code.
> 
> Richard how did you cause so much damage to the adapter? I say to gently create a fulcrum action with a small screw driver. Just buy another adapter and keep the EL11 framed up on a wall.




I've done it many times before but this time I used something too large for the points and I guess I pressed too hard cause it just broke. I ordered anoter one already though, but I was real sad when it happened and then the flurry of bad combinations..


----------



## hypnos1

aqsw said:


> After all the T1 hype, I have decided to try them again. I did have a used set for a day or two and sent them back as I was very unhappy with the condition of them.
> I just bought another used pair here on head fi. I will try  the T1s again. I'm hoping the Euforia will love them!!!


 
  
 Hi aqsw.
  
 Sounds like you were really unlucky with your first pair of T1s...there are *extremely* few people who don't really like these cans lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  They draw praise from a very wide range of folks with a very wide range of equipment, so I suspect those few negative experiences must be down to either some very unfortunate, poor synergy with the rest of the setup, or _*incredibly *_unfortunate clash with an individual's hearing. Either way, such an experience would therefore - thankfully! -  appear to be quite rare, and very bad luck indeed...not to mention _*sad*_ LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(Oh...not forgetting faulty cans in the first place, of course!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 I just hope you have more luck with your next pair...clash with your hearing notwithstanding lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


vl4dimir said:


> After you guys have praised so much the EL11 I would like to try if someone (from europe preferentially) has a spare pair+adaptors to sell, pm me
> 
> *p.S: We should put on first page a summary of all the most praised tubes with the Elise because I find difficult to find every information about a tube on the thread (just an idea)*


 
  
 Already answered...not a small undertaking either, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


richard89 said:


> Thanks mordy. You know I took the TFK EL11 out of the adapter and I smelled some burning smell, like it had been fried or something. The pins looked a little burned as well as I had to wipe some black off it, and this is the EL11 adapter. Do you think the adapter just crapped out on me?


 
  
 Hi r89. Burning smell is NOT good news...I really do hope it was confined purely to the adapter. But as already mentioned, if all is well with stock config tubes, then hopefully your amp should be OK.
  
 I'm beginning to have serious doubts about these Chinese adapters, I'm afraid...Glenn, of Glenn amps, is himself looking into sourcing better similar sockets for his EL3N amp. As for the EL11 sockets used in the adapters, I only wish manufacturers had chosen to use the "roll-jaw" design of pin receptors, as in the better sockets for the C3g, for example. They are VASTLY superior, both in surface contact and security/reliability...but this is just wishful thinking, alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Best wishes for a trouble-free future, rich...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 I have a number of socket from Mrs Ling Xu and apart for a couple of broken guide pins (sockets replaced free of charge) I do not have any problems.
  
 As Mrs Xu Ling has been very cooperative and accommodating in the past, It appears to me that she should be able to produce higher quality sockets with Teflon and higher grade materials if people are willing to pay for it.


----------



## connieflyer

I would be willing to pay more for a quality adapter, I wonder how many other people would be willing to spend the extra to get a better adapter. There are other people out there making adapters that are a little bit cheaper than hers and they sell a lot of them. I think a lot of people shop price more than quality


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> I have a number of socket from Mrs Ling Xu and apart for a couple of broken guide pins (sockets replaced free of charge) I do not have any problems.
> 
> As Mrs Xu Ling has been very cooperative and accommodating in the past, It appears to me that she should be able to produce higher quality sockets with Teflon and higher grade materials if people are willing to pay for it.


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Yes, she has indeed made MANY adapters that seem OK, and you yourself obviously don't have any problems - like a good few others. But there do appear to be some who _aren't_ so lucky, unfortunately. When making to a certain price point, there must of necessity be certain compromises and yes, just as with cf below, I'm sure there would be a market for better quality ones at a _reasonable_ premium lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 The main problem as I see it - with the EL3N and EL11/12 adapters - is, as I mentioned, the actual _sockets _they use. The contact tab material and construction is obviously not of the highest quality, thereby not ensuring and maintaining good contact with the tube's pins. Perhaps NOS European ones were made to a higher standard, with fewer such problems...but maybe they too suffered from the actual _design_, which as I mentioned, is inherently inferior to some others...(unless the sprung tabs are _extremely_ well made, with very good quality metal...). And so this could well prove a stumbling block...there is obviously a massive supply of Chinese made sockets that will be their mainstay...Catch22!...No easy answer...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


connieflyer said:


> I would be willing to pay more for a quality adapter, I wonder how many other people would be willing to spend the extra to get a better adapter. There are other people out there making adapters that are a little bit cheaper than hers and they sell a lot of them. I think a lot of people shop price more than quality


 
  
 Hi cf...think I've answered your post as well - above lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...great shame, all in all...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> The main problem as I see it - with the EL3N and EL11/12 adapters - is, as I mentioned, the actual _sockets_ they use. The contact tab material and construction is obviously not of the highest quality, thereby not ensuring and maintaining good contact with the tube's pins.




That is my opinion as well. There is no need for exotic materials, but there is a need to conform to original specification.



hypnos1 said:


> Perhaps NOS European ones were made to a higher standard




I have no actual experience but I'm fairly certain they were.


----------



## 2359glenn

I have 20 NOS Phillips side pin sockets coming to me from Europe.
 Having problems with the gold plated Chinese ones in my EL3N amps. It seems that after the tube is inserted
 a couple of times the contact tab looses it's springiness then has a bad contact.
 Don't know if NOS is better yet but I am sure it is.


----------



## aqsw

Hey H1,

I had those T1s when I was having the problems with distortion from the 5998s and Mazdas. I'm hoping the 12Ns and 3Ns are going to make those T1s sing.


----------



## mordy

There was a time when Woo Audio offered Teflon adapters for $40-50 each with the following specs:
  

High grade Teflon socket and base
Gold plated oxygen free copper pins and receptacles
Silver plated copper wires
Metal ring for easy gripping
  
 (Checked their website now but could not find them offered for sale).
  
  

  




  
 It seems to me that it should be possible to produce such high quality adapters for significantly less.


----------



## richard89

Honestly I think I should not have put the broken adapter back into the amp. My left driver channel was already having problems with other tubes popping and I carelessly put it in hoping that it would be okay. I thought to myself, why wouldn't it work? It may have thrown something off because right after I put in the EL11 and that's when Elise started becoming sensitive and microphonic. I'm not too worried anymore though, I'm sticking to 6SN7 as drivers for now and everything is semi-smoother -- I haven't really made time to troubleshoot tonight.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> I have a number of socket from Mrs Ling Xu and apart for a couple of broken guide pins (sockets replaced free of charge) I do not have any problems.
> 
> As Mrs Xu Ling has been very cooperative and accommodating in the past, It appears to me that she should be able to produce higher quality sockets with Teflon and higher grade materials if people are willing to pay for it.


 
 I entirely agree with you mordy.
  
 Without MrsX I would never have had my life enriched by the full range of Elise's delights, and G1217 amps before, not to mention interacting with all the nice, knowledgeable people on this and previous threads.
  
 She is very accommodating and I'm not aware of anyone else who manufacturers such an array of adapters.
  
 Maybe if someone provided her with details of a better manufactured (and shielded in the case of the spez) adapter,  she might accommodate us, at a price, but I'm sure would be worth it.


----------



## UntilThen

I feel I must speak for Mrs Xu Ling. To all those who speak well of her and her utter willingness to accommodate us, especially the Elise fans, I must say she has been excellent. You will never see another adapter maker labelling some of the adapters specially for Feliks Audio Elise. That's what she did after I told her that the EL3N to 6SN7 adapter is specifically for Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My most recent interaction with her on EF80 to 6SN7 and EF86 to 6SN7 adapters have again shown how quick she's willing to accommodate us. These are now available and I will be ordering:-
  
 2 x EF80 to 6SN7 adapters
 2 x EF86 to 6SN7 adapters
 2 x EF86 to 6SJ7 adapters
  
 Again, i'll repeat that I'm trialling EF80 and EF86 in Elise, so don't jump the band wagon so quickly. It might turn out to be crap or blow up Elise. Don't say I didn't warn you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Lastly, I have no problems at all with my EL3N adapters from Mrs Xu lIng, whether single or dual adapters. They work 100%.
  
 Regarding my EL11 hum, it is not the problem of the adapter. Why am I convinced? Well with the same adapters, my EL12 and EL12N are pitch black silent with no music playing and they are not microphonic. Certainly not a problem with the adapters.


----------



## UntilThen

*Mullard ECC31 and Tung Sol 5998*
  
 ECC31 is a quality tube. This is about texture and layers without sacrificing clarity and details. One of the best bass hitters without the bloom and bloat. Mid range is one of the best in the show business. It brings out the best in the vocals. I love this tube and when paired with Tung Sol 5998 or Chatham 6AS7G, it's an exquisite tone. @hypnos1 used to love ECC31 with GEC 6AS7G.
  
 However a word of caution. ECC31 and GEC 6AS7G amounts to 7 amperes total. A bit high on Elise. I do listen to ECC31 and 5998 occasionally without any harm. This combination is best used in the Euforia where the safe operating range is extended to 7a.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> *Mullard ECC31 and Tung Sol 5998*
> 
> ECC31 is a quality tube. This is about texture and layers without sacrificing clarity and details. One of the best bass hitters without the bloom and bloat. Mid range is one of the best in the show business. It brings out the best in the vocals. I love this tube and when paired with Tung Sol 5998 or Chatham 6AS7G, it's an exquisite tone. @hypnos1 used to love ECC31 with GEC 6AS7G.
> 
> However a word of caution. ECC31 and GEC 6AS7G amounts to 7 amperes total. A bit high on Elise. I do listen to ECC31 and 5998 occasionally without any harm. This combination is best used in the Euforia where the safe operating range is extended to 7a.


 
 Really look forward to your daily 'news column'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Am I right in thinking the three types of ECC31 have a rather different sound? With the metal case ones being cooler through to the straight bottle type being more neutral to the coke bottle, as in your picture, being the warmest variety. Maybe that's too simplified, but you know what I mean.
  
 I only have the first two and have never been able to obtain really loud volume, but I think I must be unique in this respect.
  
 From what I could hear at low volume though, even with the straight bottles the bass sounded awesome and, as you say, very well layered.
  
 EDIT: I am referring to 6N7 tubes, which are related but not the same as ECC31, as UT explains below.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Really look forward to your daily 'news column'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Howie, I didn't know there are different shapes of ECC31? Are you sure? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Picture please.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Howie, I didn't know there are different shapes of ECC31? Are you sure?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm wrong again-apologies,everyone.
 I was referring to 6N7 tubes, which use the same adapter and say ECC31 on the adapter label. I always thought they were similar.
 I'd better go into hibernation for a few weeks-that's the second mistake I've made in as many days!


----------



## UntilThen

untilthen said:


> Howie, I didn't know there are different shapes of ECC31? Are you sure?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok I think you were referring to 6N7G, 6N7GT and 6N7. They are not quite the same as ECC31. A close cousin perhaps, so you'll often see sellers refer 6N7G as ECC31. They use the same adapters in Elise though.
  
 Mullard ECC31 is warmer and textured. Visseaux 6N7G on the other hand is much brighter and leaner in tone. Visseaux 6N7GT is even leaner than 6N7G. The leanest of them all is the 6N7.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I'm wrong again-apologies,everyone.
> I was referring to 6N7 tubes, which use the same adapter and say ECC31 on the adapter label. I always thought they were similar.
> I'd better go into hibernation for a few weeks-that's the second mistake I've made in as many days!


 
  
 No apologies needed Howie. There is indeed some relation between ECC31 and 6N7G, 6N7GT and 6N7. I just don't see them as the same, that's all.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> No apologies needed Howie. There is indeed some relation between ECC31 and 6N7G, 6N7GT and 6N7. I just don't see them as the same, that's all.


 
  
 Thanks for your forbearance and explanation UT.
 I must try an ECC31 and I'll add an 'edit' to my earlier post to allay any confusion I may cause.


----------



## UntilThen

I tried EL12 as power tubes in La Figaro 339 and I have to turn up the volume to 2pm. Imagine this beast needing volume at 2pm? With conventional power tubes, 8 to 9am is all I need.
  
 At 2pm, the tone is as lovely as in Elise. It's the EL12 tone no doubt about it. However I have decided not to continue with the operation. It just doesn't seem right to me that the volume decreases so much on LF339.
  
 Strange. On Elise, EL12 seems so powerful and loud.


----------



## richdytch

I'm assuming there's a German word for "the feeling you experience when your EL12N tubes have arrived more quickly than anticipated, but your adapters have still not dispatched"?


----------



## HPLobster

richdytch said:


> I'm assuming there's a German word for "the feeling you experience when your EL12N tubes have arrived more quickly than anticipated, but your adapters have still not dispatched"?


 

 I feel you  My EL12 spezials arrived yesterday, the corresponding adapters are still in.....wait, Iet me check.... ah, Kowloon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The German word is: "Verflixt und zugenäht" (pronounce: "dayam!")


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> *Mullard ECC31 and Tung Sol 5998*
> 
> ECC31 is a quality tube. This is about texture and layers without sacrificing clarity and details. One of the best bass hitters without the bloom and bloat. Mid range is one of the best in the show business. It brings out the best in the vocals. I love this tube and when paired with Tung Sol 5998 or Chatham 6AS7G, it's an exquisite tone. @hypnos1 used to love ECC31 with GEC 6AS7G.
> 
> However a word of caution. ECC31 and GEC 6AS7G amounts to 7 amperes total. A bit high on Elise. I do listen to ECC31 and 5998 occasionally without any harm. This combination is best used in the Euforia where the safe operating range is extended to 7a.


 
  
  
 Thank you for doing this, UT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 I´m really looking forward to reading your posts. Since the whole Tube-goodness is still new to me, these kind of "best-of"-segments are pure gold indeed.
 Though they mean a slow, agonizing and inevitable death for my wallet


----------



## richdytch

hplobster said:


> I feel you  My EL12 spezials arrived yesterday, the corresponding adapters are still in.....wait, Iet me check.... ah, Kowloon h34r:
> 
> The German word is: "Verflixt und zugenäht" (pronounce: "dayam!")




I knew someone would know  .... good luck getting yours HP .


----------



## connieflyer

UT how would you characterize the difference between the ECC 31 plus the ts 5998 comparing them to the El 11 and El12 combo


----------



## HPLobster

Meanwhile, I finally had the spare time to try combining my Oppo PM-3s with the Elise....and it worked out just fine, they are driven well despite their impedance of 32 Ohm, though I did not actually get the convincing feeling that the sound really benefits drastically from a tube amp compared to the Mojo-only-experience...there isn´t necessarily a synergy here.   
  
 HOWEVER (yes, in capital letters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) the real sensation were my Fostex TH-X00 PHs! Man, these sound exceptionally good out of the FeliksAudio-magic-box 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Compared to the sound out of my Mojo they really come to live, the bass and sub-bass are amazing and he stage is so much wider and fuller, the difference is astonishing. Although I personally contemplate selling them (I feel the mid-range is lacking a tad too much for my taste overall) I wholeheartedly recommend them to Elise-owners!


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> *HOWEVER (yes, in capital letters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Who would have thunk tat !!!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> UT how would you characterize the difference between the ECC 31 plus the ts 5998 comparing them to the El 11 and El12 combo


 
  
 Hello my dear friend, let me build up to the finale. I'm stepping through the stand out combos since the beginning to present. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I'll give you a hint. Without the EL11 now but with EL12 as drivers and EL12N as power tubes, I almost swallow my sandwich whole. 
  
 Credit to @hypnos1 for introducing these marvel tubes to Elise. C3g, ECC31, FDD20, EL3N and eventually the unpredictable Miss Dazzling EL11.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> I have 20 NOS Phillips side pin sockets coming to me from Europe.
> Having problems with the gold plated Chinese ones in my EL3N amps. It seems that after the tube is inserted
> a couple of times the contact tab looses it's springiness then has a bad contact.
> Don't know if NOS is better yet but I am sure it is.


 
  
 Afraid I have to agree here Glenn...as I mentioned, with this particular design of socket pin receptors, it is a problem just waiting to happen IMHO. Unless a special metal that will retain its 'springiness' through _multiple_ deflections is used, there will inevitably be consequences...more's the pity. The only real answer is, of course, once the tube is successfully inserted..._*keep it there!!!*_





...(having made sure the tube's pins are scrupulously clean beforehand lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


aqsw said:


> Hey H1,
> .
> I had those T1s when I was having the problems with distortion from the 5998s and Mazdas. *I'm hoping the 12Ns and 3Ns are going to make those T1s sing*


 
  
 Reckon you'd have to be _*awfully*_ unlucky if they don't...so... GOOD LUCK!!...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Hello my dear friend, let me build up to the finale. I'm stepping through the stand out combos since the beginning to present.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...despite my occasional misgivings, you - and others - are absolutely right....without MrsX's tremendous help, none of these marvellous tubes would have been available for folks to use. So she is indeed to be saluted LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...despite my occasional misgivings, you - and others - are absolutely right....without MrsX's tremendous help, none of these marvellous tubes would have been available for folks to use. So she is indeed to be saluted LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Righto without Mrs X, we will be bugging you day and night to make us the adapters.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> I'm assuming there's a German word for "the feeling you experience when your EL12N tubes have arrived more quickly than anticipated, but your adapters have still not dispatched"?


 
  
 You PMC 23 will be in for a good time. Watch those cones throttle fast. Dang those PMC 23 look nice and look like the leaning tower of Piza.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Who would have thunk tat !!!


 

 People always judged that I thunk too much, then thinking got a thing and I slunk unsung


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Hello my dear friend, let me build up to the finale. I'm stepping through the stand out combos since the beginning to present.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Righto without Mrs X, we will be bugging you day and night to make us the adapters.


 
  
 Rather her than me lol, UT!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but I do wish I had more time to help people out - Elise (and probably Euforia) has been (and will be)* too* successful LOL!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> You PMC 23 will be in for a good time. Watch those cones throttle fast. Dang those PMC 23 look nice and look like the leaning tower of Piza. :bigsmile_face:




...they are great. I'm gradually finding that they scale up really well as your amplification improves. They seem to always have a little bit extra available, rather like the Elise. And the fact that they are wife friendly is a bonus


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Quote: " _the unpredictable Miss Dazzling EL11."_
  
 What about her bigger sister, the unpredictable EL12?
  
 I now have a collection of two EL12 (TFK and Valvo) and one EL11 Philips DOA.
  
*BUT*
today is one of those days when *EVERYTHING SOUNDS RIGHT AND ABSOLUTELY STUNNING*.
  
 My Elise is singing with stupendous bass and gorgeous sound. I really feel like hypnos1 today with my unobtanium mesh plate er EL6 power tubes and a pair of 1943/44 TFK EL11 as drivers. And the thought went through my mind that I don't see how this can be improved upon, but h1 stated that the Euforia sounds much better.....
  
 Oh, and one more thing: I bought the A/C power cord that CF recommended (Thanks!). Maybe this is why the Elise sounds so fabulous today...Better bass and treble, and i noticed a little less hum (at the loudest levels) as well. Wow!


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Quote: " _the unpredictable Miss Dazzling EL11."_
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed mordy...when these tubes (including your EL6 now) behave themselves, the sound truly _*is STUNNING!!!*_...(and I do believe power cords _can_ make a difference lol! 





).
  
 Glad you're really enjoying what Elise is delivering...(and you already know what comes next LOL!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).


----------



## Frederick Rea

Do you want to improve ELISE's performance? Get a new, independent and exclusive power outlet from the main switchboard - PURITY


----------



## connieflyer

Better yet,convert to battery power!  then play this and give the girl a workout.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, got a few things to share about my Telefunken EL12 Spez pair that came in yesterday...
 polarizing results to say the least  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 / 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 So firstly trying them as powers with an assortment of EL11/12 and 6SN7 as drivers, I had a hum so shatteringly loud it was actually hurting my ears, and even on low levels... turn the volume knob to 0 it is would start 'arching' akin to a very loud morris-code sound. With this hum I had to turn the volume up to about 2:00 to hear any music through it.
  
 Swapped around the EL12 Spez to drivers and the hum is absolutely, completely gone! In fact it may be my quietest setup ever when used as drivers. And for some reason they seemed to behave better as drivers with the anode wire twisted around like this:
  

  
 So here are my initial impressions of the TLF EL12 Spez as drivers that I gather thus far:
*It's a very clean, dynamic sound with grand sense of 'presence' and is amazingly vivid, yet slightly bright.*
  
 My favorite tube pairing seems to be the Telefunken / RFT EL11 as powers. This sounds very proper, vivid and realistic in all aspects; and this was compared to both ST EL12's and EL12N.
  
 Moving the Spez's back to the power seat I tried the earlier suggestion of holding the anode wires to reduce the hum... I discovered that not only holding it was necessary, but _pinching_ them _tightly_, usually using _two _hands, and from the _top _portion of the wire in order to finally quell that horrendously loud hum. After several times I noticed something: the instant the hum disappears there is a moderately loud 'POP' sound. It's the kind of pop sound one may expect when completing a circuit with audio wiring, as if I just flipped a switch that took it from a super loud buzz to absolutely silent. Definitely something in my setup seems amiss with these as powers. 
  
 However for the brief seconds I was able to keep the buzz 'at bay' with the Spez's in the power seat, here is the sound I got:
*It's an astonishingly clean sound with slamming dynamics and spine-tingling realism, great 'presence' & 'intimacy', yet slightly bright.*
  
 Notice using them as powers seems to invoke greater adjectives than as drivers. As drivers they seem a top performer, but as powers they seem a legendary performer with boundless potential, and even more clean / dynamic; essentially they seem more laid back as drivers. I think these can be good as drivers or powers, depending on your system and current music.
  
 Also notice my mention of the brightness. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that all EL12 Spez are bright, but for some reason on my system, they do seem moderately bright compared to some of my top tube pairings that are fairly neutral. I'm wondering if this may be something that would simmer down in time? It seems these may be unused NOS tubes.
  
 I preferred all pairings of the Spez tubes (drivers / powers) with the HD-650 headphone to veil that brightness just about right.
  
 I'll give the foil covering concept a whirl when I have time, but with the insane levels of buzz untreated these are giving off as powers, I'm wondering if some sort of extreme solution may be necessary such as full foil wrapping. I have a hunch a lot of the buzz people are getting from these has to do with the type of anode wire material Ms. Xuling had chosen that works _very, very well_





 as an antenna of sorts.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hi guys, got a few things to share about my Telefunken EL12 Spez pair that came in yesterday...
> polarizing results to say the least
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes they are very good antennae! 
  
 I was listening this morning with the EL12spez as powers and drivers together.
  
 I need to put a generous amount of kitchen foil around the wires to eliminate the hum using them as power tubes. Like you, I find no hum using them as drivers.
  
 I think this set up I'm using now with the four EL12 spez is an excellent 'all round' sound, which will suit most Classical genres I listen to.
  
 I don't find the Telefunken EL12spez bright and those NOS tubes of yours will surely mellow with use-they do look in pristine condition, and that can mean they need time to settle in.


----------



## UntilThen

*Fivre 6N7G brown base and Tung Sol 5998*
  
 Fivre 6N7G brown base is a tube of extraordinary sonic delight. It's almost a fusion of Mullard Ecc31 and Visseaux 6N7G. This is the closest to FDD20 sound. Paired with 5998, there's incredible energy. High notes are startlingly clear, vocals are sublime and bass are of the best heart thumping quality.
  
 Unfortunately the Fivre brown base is near extinct now. If you do find a pair, it's ok to sell your pet rabbit for it.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> UT how would you characterize the difference between the ECC 31 plus the ts 5998 comparing them to the El 11 and El12 combo


 
  
 Whilst both combinations provide the utmost sonic satisfaction, the main difference is that the EL11 and 12 combo has a more 3D presence and you're right there with the singer and the band. I talk of a BIG presence previously and this is what the EL tubes reveals... even the EL3N.
  
 ECC31 and 5998 are startlingly revealing of the whole FR tonal range but the EL tubes is even more startlingly revealing. There's incredible details and the notes jumps at you. The bass has the most satisfying thump that will leave a dent in your chest. Try and wear a protective vest when listening to the EL tubes.
  
 That's about all my mortal words can convey. You need to hear it for yourself.


----------



## hypnos1

frederick rea said:


> Do you want to improve ELISE's performance? Get a new, independent and exclusive power outlet from the main switchboard - PURITY


 
  
 Aaahhh, F R....$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....


----------



## connieflyer

Well that makes everything a little bit clearer thank you UT. That was just the kind of difference that I was looking to decide whether or not to get the ECC 31. I think I'll pass on that as the price has gone up on them too much to make them worthwhile compared to the el-11 el12 combo.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Whilst both combinations provide the utmost sonic satisfaction, the main difference is that the EL11 and 12 combo has a more 3D presence and you're right there with the singer and the band. I talk of a BIG presence previously and this is what the EL tubes reveals... even the EL3N.
> 
> ECC31 and 5998 are startlingly revealing of the whole FR tonal range but the EL tubes is even more startlingly revealing. There's incredible details and the notes jumps at you. The bass has the most satisfying thump that will leave a dent in your chest. Try and wear a protective vest when listening to the EL tubes.
> 
> That's about all my mortal words can convey. You need to hear it for yourself.


 

 Those words give a pretty good summary of these EL tubes, UT! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  And despite the good few I myself have given here and on the Euforia thread, they can't really convey *precisely* or *fully* the sound they produce in our amps (or others', no doubt!!). It is indeed an _experience_ one needs to savour for oneself...and one *beyond *mere words LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Well that makes everything a little bit clearer thank you UT. That was just the kind of difference that I was looking to decide whether or not to get the ECC 31. I think I'll pass on that as the price has gone up on them too much to make them worthwhile compared to the el-11 el12 combo.


 
  
 Phew, thank Heavens for that, cf....the EL11s are better _*and*_ far cheaper!..._*and*_ the 31s run far hotter than I personally like lol!...so wise move, mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but perhaps my few might just prove to have been a good investment then?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

Glad you've been able to hear what the EL12 Spezials are truly capable of, @DecentLevi...their function in the power output circuit obviously does indeed appear to amplify enormously the anode wire's efficiency as an antenna..._*most*_ unfortunately lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...but if you can manage to suppress it as well as @HOWIE13 seems to have done (and/or be as lucky as myself!), by the time they're properly burned in I'm sure you will be even *more* impressed with them! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....GOOD LUCK!...


----------



## pctazhp

I have been dutifully (pat myself on the back) adding links to UT's daily combo reports on the first page of this thread. I would like to add links or discussion (from him or others) to the first page regarding EL11/12, but don't have the time or energy to go back to find ones that might be appropriate. In addition, there have been so many problems and there is such a variety of these tubes and combos it is overwhelming to me. For example, I could add DL's most recent post on the EL12 spez, but that would just be a snapshot of this particular tube and would appear on the first page out of context with the much broader subject of EL11/12. Please let me know here or by PM if anyone has any suggestions.


----------



## Spork67

hplobster said:


> Meanwhile, I finally had the spare time to try combining my Oppo PM-3s with the Elise....and it worked out just fine, they are driven well despite their impedance of 32 Ohm, though I did not actually get the convincing feeling that the sound really benefits drastically from a tube amp compared to the Mojo-only-experience...there isn´t necessarily a synergy here.
> 
> HOWEVER (yes, in capital letters
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep. Elise took my TH-X00s to a whole new level - quite amazing given they aren't even within Elise spec. of 32 - 600 ohm, coming in at just 25 omh.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I have been dutifully (pat myself on the back) adding links to UT's daily combo reports on the first page of this thread. I would like to add links or discussion (from him or others) to the first page regarding EL11/12, but don't have the time or energy to go back to find ones that might be appropriate. In addition, there have been so many problems and there is such a variety of these tubes and combos it is overwhelming to me. For example, I could add DL's most recent post on the EL12 spez, but that would just be a snapshot of this particular tube and would appear on the first page out of context with the much broader subject of EL11/12. Please let me know here or by PM if anyone has any suggestions.


 
  
 Did you include my legendary hamster joke? 
  
 I think you should include @hypnos1 impressions of the EL11 / EL12. I can't remember where it is too. H1, can you provide the link - including of the photo? Thanks.
  
 ... oh and some of @HOWIE13 's and yours too on the EL's ....  best to pick the ones that are working. Not the humming bird ones.


----------



## UntilThen

Had some really good news from Lukasz. Please see my post on the Euforia's thread.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/1170#post_13306948
  
 In the stillness of the night, with no music playing, I can hear 'electricity surging' on my headphone with EL12 and EL12N. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It is not as dead silent as I thought it was. With other combinations, I have pitch black silence. Can you guys verify your EL's setup? 
  
 Perhaps this is what Lukasz was alluding to about it being all over the place?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Did you include my legendary hamster joke?
> 
> I think you should include @hypnos1 impressions of the EL11 / EL12. I can't remember where it is too. H1, can you provide the link - including of the photo? Thanks.
> 
> ... oh and some of @HOWIE13 's and yours too on the EL's ....  best to pick the ones that are working. Not the humming bird ones.


 
  
 Hi UT, and @pctazhp...will search out relevant material at the weekend...(but refers to Euforia, of course!).
  
 With ref to your other post, I myself didn't get the kind of background noise you mention with EL12Ns driving my EL12 Spezials...but my own setup - as y'all know! - is not the "norm" lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But it does look as though sometimes these tubes do indeed come with a slight amount of baggage, which hopefully needs a blind eye turning now and again in relation to the benefits gained lol?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...just so long as they aren't _too_ noticeable, or get any _worse_...otherwise best to give them a wide berth - if outside sources of interference are not the obvious culprit, that is...
  
 It'll be interesting to see if you have the same situation with Euforia...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...


----------



## UntilThen

H1, you are correct. What I hear is the faintest of 'murmur' which most wouldn't even bother. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Being super critical here.
  
 As for turning a blind eye, that's easy when the music starts. You're engulfed with sonic ecstasy.


----------



## HPLobster

Meanwhile, I have reached the honeymoon phase with my Elise. I am truly in love with her... LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 So - naturally - I am treating her right and bought (thanks to recommendations I got of this marvellous forum and its wonderful members 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) some gifts: EL12 spez., EL11s, EL3Ns and EL12Ns.
  
  
 Now, the very blunt question (my bank account and I are asking ourselves) is: Is there a good reason to additionally buy the "regular" EL12s?
 I mean, do they differ sonically from the EL 12 spez. in a significant way also regarding combining them with the above mentioned tubes? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
edit: typo


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Meanwhile, I have reached the honeymoon phase with my Elise. I am truly in love with her... LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Why not doctor. EL12 is the pivotal point of them all. Let's hope your tubes are hum free and that you won't throw them against the wall.


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT, and @pctazhp...will search out relevant material at the weekend...(but refers to Euforia, of course!).
> 
> With ref to your other post, I myself didn't get the kind of background noise you mention with EL12Ns driving my EL12 Spezials...but my own setup - as y'all know! - is not the "norm" lol!
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's quiet in the apartment just now and I have Elise powered up with no music playing and I'm listening hard. 
 EL12 powers, EL12N drivers, dead quiet. Reverse them-dead quiet.
 EL12 powers EL3N drivers -a quiet hum, not heard if music plays.
 Switched to EL12 spez powers and with EL11 drivers a very quiet hum, not heard when music plays,
 but with EL12spez drivers, ie. a four pack of EL12spez- dead quiet.
 Then used dual powers, one EL12N and one EL12 per channel, with EL11 drivers-dead quiet.
 Then switched to 5998 powers and Sylvania 6SN7WGT drivers and I hear a quiet hum, again not heard over music.
  
 Occasionally when I've thought I couldn't hear any background noise I disconnect the headphone and can just about imagine the background has become a teeney- weeney bit cleaner, or maybe it's my imagination.
  
 Why am I even intently listening with no music playing? If I carry on doing this all evening I'll deserve to be carted off to the mad house.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Why not doctor. *EL12 is the pivotal point of them all*. Let's hope your tubes are hum free and that you won't throw them against the wall.


 
  
 I was afraid you´d say that...


----------



## HPLobster

howie13 said:


> It's quiet in the apartment just now and I have Elise powered up with no music playing and I'm listening hard.
> EL12 powers, EL12N drivers, dead quiet. Reverse them-dead quiet.
> EL12 powers EL3N drivers -a quiet hum, not heard if music plays.
> Switched to EL12 spez powers and with EL11 drivers a very quiet hum, not heard when music plays,
> ...


 
 Quite the contrary: You sir, deserve some well-deserved acknowledgement for doing this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 From the perspective of a scientist, consider me impressed...


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> Quite the contrary: You sir, deserve some well-deserved acknowledgement for doing this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Marvellous-I'm off to reassure the wife, she's been very worried about me ever since she discovered I talk to my tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> I was afraid you´d say that...


 
 Just make sure you shield those spez adapter wires well with kitchen foil and maybe an Ikea utensil holder-though I haven't needed that in the last few days-maybe some outside interference has gone away.
  
 It's well worth the effort to get the EL12 spez to work .


----------



## mordy

Since I am thinking of getting the EL12 Spez tubes, did anyone ask Mrs Xu Ling if she can insulate the anode wires in the adapters to prevent them from picking up hum?
  
 IMHO she is in the best position in implementing this with her knowledge and expertise.


----------



## aqsw

My T1s were delivered today. I was pissed because I did not think I should pay $80.00 cdn on a set of $450 us used headphones,
Anyways , my wife hsd already given the credit card number.

Come home, open the box and WOW. The original packaging, and not a crease in the box. The aluminum box is immacukate. Open and I see these perfect
T1S. They look like they have never been worn. I don't care about the duty anymore!

I'm very happy with the asthetics. Now, to have some fun. I will be back tomorrow.


----------



## aqsw

Ether C versus T1 coming in a couple days.


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 I am usually very skeptical about the value of expensive interconnects and cords, but when I saw the A/C power cable that CF recommended at a very reasonable price, I decided to try it:
  
 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0069FLXLU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  





  
 Well, the other day, as I previously posted, suddenly my system sounded really great. After giving it some thought I came to conclusion that maybe it has to do with power cable.
  
 Today I did an A/B with the standard A/C power cord and this new one. There is no doubt in my mind that this power cord contributes to more slam and depth in the bass and more impact in the treble. Color me impressed....
  
 Not bad for $11.84 with free shipping. This cable is more than twice as thick as the standard one, and the plugs are very sturdy.
  
 Or you could try this cord at 50% off:
  
 http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC9S2&opt=3652&gclid=Cj0KEQiAot_FBRCqt8jVsoDKoZABEiQAqFL76CdW4kgamAhWOh4jZZNoRDD-6HGGEXUIebHpHVTl_O8aAiAS8P8HAQ
  




 It is only $149,99
  
 I am happy with mine for $11.84


----------



## aqsw

I totally believe in power cords, but there is a limit. I buy mine from a guy and he charges me $60.00. They are a very good quality. Sometimes too heavy for some units. I believe it's a great improvement over standsrd crap.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Did you include my legendary hamster joke?
> 
> I think you should include @hypnos1 impressions of the EL11 / EL12. I can't remember where it is too. H1, can you provide the link - including of the photo? Thanks.
> 
> ... oh and some of @HOWIE13 's and yours too on the EL's ....  best to pick the ones that are working. Not the humming bird ones.


 

 Thanks for your help. I understand H1 will be getting something to me this weekend.
  
 I'm mainly impressed you were able to work a hamster and a hummingbird into the same post above. I'll bet you haven't heard this:


----------



## pctazhp

None of my EL12/11 combos hum. In fact, I can't think of any of my tubes that hum, murmur or even burp. But like the good doctor, I do talk to my tubes and many talk back to me. In fact, they frequently laugh at me, make fun of me and even mock me. Thus my song is:


----------



## DecentLevi

GUYS I JUST CAN'T HOLD THIS OFF FOR ONE SECOND LONGER....
  
 BEHOLD THE Tung Sol 5998 (powers) + EL12 Spez drivers
  
 This combo is tantalizing and intoxicating! Everything completely opens up, giving an edge in some ways even to my top 'EL13' combo.
 It has magic synergy and is leaving me with no desire for any other tubes. A must try relic of a setup...
  
NOTE: This combo is supposed to exceed the current draw by 0.6 AH


----------



## DecentLevi

The above were my initial impressions of the TS 5998 + EL12 Spez combo. Now that I've had the chance to compare it to the EL11 + EL12 Spez (Telefunken) combo...
 This pairing is more weighty/dark and velvety with surreal sense of 'presence', while the EL11 + EL12 Spz combo is more analytical and dynamic.
  
I'd recommend the above posted combo only for those who already have the TS 5998 or comparable domino-plate power tubes, given their exorbitant cost.
_(see above)_


----------



## DecentLevi

angpsi said:


> (...)
> 
> Notice how the brown cable on the left tube is moved slightly. Once I attached the EL11, my previous configuration started buzzing. Moving the left cable fixed things.


 
  
 Thanks to Angpsi and Howie13, I am pleased to announce that I have completely fixed the aa_*hhuuummm*_ issue of my EL12 Spez tubes, as both powers and drivers! Inspired by the above, I first gave it a go with just one side wrapped in foil. This way, the _opposite _side would have lower hum level, until I twirled the anode wire around the tube and that's when it all started disappearing for good - and at least for a few seconds at a time, until I completed both sides. At this point the hum would come & go, and interestingly I noticed the headphone cable connected to the Elise plays a major role in this: when it was on my head the hum was gone, resuming again when I walked a few feet away from the unit - apparently my body was acting as a sort of indirect grounding. Then I noticed when placing the headphone cable into my 'snake pit' of wires it would come back, and the more isolated I would get the headphone cable, the quieter things became.
  
 Finally I went full-on _geek _





 akin to the above photo, with medium gauge heavily isolated electrical outlet wires connected to each of the foil covers of the anode wires. Touching the two together via the wire on the tin foil made it worse, so I settled on the below configuration. Notice both anode wires are *covered in foil AND twisted around the tube - of which every time I noticed this reduced the 'antenna effect'.* Also remember it's helpful to keep your headphone cable away from too many sources of interference.
  

  
 This was able to completely eliminate my hum for the EL12 Spez, and mine may have been louder than anybody else's - loud enough so I could actually feel my headphones blaring the hum at all volume levels out of the Elise - now completely silent with this and the headphone cable isolation.
  
 Well done fellow pioneers - and the sound... let's just say I didn't get a good listen yesterday when having to pinch the wire with both hands for a few seconds at a time before setting this up as is today - the only word I can seem to surmise as of yet is the sound is 'tremendous' - tremendously everything that is superb in a sound.
 My favorite now is EL12 Spez + Valvo EL11.


----------



## DecentLevi

PS- I take back the assertion yesterday of something not seeming right with the EL12 Spez as powers _(as so it seems anyway)_, because with this solution I have world class sound and the channel imbalance that several of my 'EL13' setups gave me is also finally gone!
  
 What I should have said was that something was wrong with the chosen cable type of the anode wire on this adapter.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Since I am thinking of getting the EL12 Spez tubes, did anyone ask Mrs Xu Ling if she can insulate the anode wires in the adapters to prevent them from picking up hum?
> 
> IMHO she is in the best position in implementing this with her knowledge and expertise.


 
 I don't know mordy but it would be a very good idea, given how good they can sound.
  
 Thinking generally, I appreciate that some of the tubes we find very good for Elise will almost certainly not all be suitable for Euforia, but I've been listening just now to EL12spez powers with EL11 drivers, all RFT's, and I can't imagine how this combination of sweet clarity and huge sound-stage wouldn't suit Euforia too. Would probably sound even better, hard though that is to imagine.
  
 I've also been trying to determine what exactly is the difference in sound between the different  manufacturers and shapes of the EL12/EL12N type of tubes and I'm finding it very difficult.
  
 For a few days I thought Telefunken and Valvo were a bit warmer than RFT/RWN tubes, today I'm not so sure.
  
 Same with the coke bottle ST and straight N's. I originally thought, like most, that the N's were a bit brighter, but, again, now I'm not so sure. Sometimes I think the N's sound warmer.
 I'm wondering if it depends on the accompanying driver/ power tubes as well. 
  
 So far, I think spez are a little warmer again than the other two, but that will probably change too. 
  
 Maybe best not to bother too much about all these differences, they are not big anyway. I'll just enjoy the music as they all sound so good.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> The above were my initial impressions of the TS 5998 + EL12 Spez combo. Now that I've had the chance to compare it to the EL11 + EL12 Spez (Telefunken) combo...
> This pairing is more weighty/dark and velvety with surreal sense of 'presence', while the EL11 + EL12 Spz combo is more analytical and dynamic. I'd recommend the above posted combo only for those who already have the TS 5998 or comparable domino-plate power tubes, given their exorbitant cost.


 
  
 Just as well as the 5998/EL12spez combo exceeds 6.8A.
  
 Very glad you have finally managed to solve the wire hum/buzz and you are able to appreciate at last the fine sound of the spez.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I am usually very skeptical about the value of expensive interconnects and cords, but when I saw the A/C power cable that CF recommended at a very reasonable price, I decided to try it:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0069FLXLU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


 
  
 I got this made in china cable at an el cheapo price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Ordered a while ago but still making it's way here.
  
 US$22.74
  
100% New & High Quality
 Length: 1.5M 5ft
 Material : 4N OFC 99.997% Oxygen Free Copper 3 Cores
 Cable overall diameter 10mm
 Single core diameter: 2.5mm *3
 Envelope material : PVC
Plug Material: Red Copper
Flame-dumb: V0 level of fire prevention materials.
Max Input : < 5500W
Specifications: 250V, 15A
Plugs: AU 3 Pin mains plug to IEC Plug (AU)


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> GUYS I JUST CAN'T HOLD THIS OFF FOR ONE SECOND LONGER....
> 
> BEHOLD THE Tung Sol 5998 (powers) + EL12 Spez drivers
> 
> ...


 
  
 As Howie has pointed out, EL12 Spez drivers and Tung Sol 5998 powers is 7.4a total. 
  
 NOT ONLY CAN'T YOU HOLD OFF FOR ONE SECOND LONGER... ELISE COULDN'T EITHER. YOU ARE GONNA BLOW HER UP ONE DAY.
  
 And please stick to the convention of stating the drivers first, followed by powers.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Why am I even intently listening with no music playing? If I carry on doing this all evening I'll deserve to be carted off to the mad house.


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Maybe best not to bother too much about all these differences, they are not big anyway. I'll just enjoy the music as they all sound so good.


 
  
 Hahaha Howie, you should just relax and enjoy the EL tubes. They are quite a firebrand and unlike any tubes I've heard before. It's hard to forget these tubes once you have heard them. It's surreal. 
  
 EL11, EL12 and EL12N has some similarities and you're right about EL12N being less bright after lots of hours.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Since I am thinking of getting the EL12 Spez tubes, did anyone ask Mrs Xu Ling if she can insulate the anode wires in the adapters to prevent them from picking up hum?
> 
> IMHO she is in the best position in implementing this with her knowledge and expertise.


 
  
 I will have a word with Mrs Xu Ling. Perhaps might even suggest to her to cut the umbilical cord. 
  
 Ok I've send her an email.


----------



## DecentLevi

untilthen said:


> As Howie has pointed out, EL12 Spez drivers and Tung Sol 5998 powers is 7.4a total.
> 
> NOT ONLY CAN'T YOU HOLD OFF FOR ONE SECOND LONGER... ELISE COULDN'T EITHER. YOU ARE GONNA BLOW HER UP ONE DAY.
> 
> And please stick to the convention of stating the drivers first, followed by powers.


 
 OK, didn't realize at the time, but at least my Elise handled this combo flawlessly without the faintest hint of any trouble during what was essentially just a short test... Switching the EL12 Spez back to powers with all the outstanding drivers I've got, the TS 5998 + EL12 Spez just became the 'flavor of the minute', and I'll update my post on that combo.
  
 No blowing up here as I'lll be sticking to proper combos and have already all the tubes I should ever need. And I have a feeling she's still got a bit of legroom left before anything like that would ever happen, though I'll not be going that route.
  
 Mentioning drivers then powers... oh boy all my notes are in reverse, so I guess I'll have to switch the noted order when mentioning them.


----------



## pctazhp

@UntilThen. You showed us an impressive and *detailed *description of a world-class (I'm assuming that as I would not expect less of you) power cable. Unfortunately, you forgot one small detail. WHERE DID YOU GET IT????  Was that intentional? Do you just want us to envy your good fortune or will you at some point let us know the source????
  
 I have long respected Mrs. X. I now have even more respect for her when I realize she receives emails talking about such things as an "umbilical cord" and yet still seems to like us FA types.
  
 General question for anyone who has a pair of EL12 spez tubes. Do you think they sound significantly better as power tubes than any other EL12 powers you have tried? This question assumes you don't have, or have already solved, the hum problem.


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> OK, didn't realize at the time, but at least my Elise handled this combo flawlessly without the faintest hint of any trouble during what was essentially just a short test... Switching the EL12 Spez back to powers with all the outstanding drivers I've got, the TS 5998 + EL12 Spez just became the 'flavor of the minute', and I'll update my post on that combo.
> 
> No blowing up here as I'lll be sticking to proper combos and have already all the tubes I should ever need. And I have a feeling she's still got a bit of legroom left before anything like that would ever happen, though I'll not be going that route.
> 
> Mentioning drivers then powers... oh boy all my notes are in reverse, so I guess I'll have to switch the noted order when mentioning them.


 
 Members of this thread have cautioned you about recommending combos that exceed 6.8 watts many times, yet you seem to have total disregard for the strong majority of regular members of this thread who do not want to see uninformed people read your recommendations and not realize that they exceed FA's recommendations. You have promised not to do that, but seem to forget that promise quickly.
  
 Even in this last post, you seem to be trying to say that it may not be too serious to exceed manufacturer recommendation because you didn't experience any trouble while you were exceeding it. I don't think FA sets a limit on heater draw just for the fun of it. Many different products (electrical and other types) can survive exceeding manufacturer operating limits for a time, but the stress of such excess over time can lead to real problems.


----------



## DecentLevi

As noted it was an error that I didn't realize and I won't be using that combo anymore. Twas just a brief try and my amp still sings like a beauty


----------



## pctazhp

decentlevi said:


> As noted it was an error that I didn't realize and I won't be using that combo anymore. Twas just a brief try and my amp still sings like a beauty


 

 DL.  I don't give a damn if your Elise sings like a beauty or grunts like a hamster. This is not about what you personally can get away with. It is about consideration for those who visit this thread and can't spend hours or days going back through all the posts to know what is safe and what may cause problems.
  
 You say it was a mistake, but you have been asked to carefully check the operating range of combos you recommend. You have frequently professed on HeadFi to have great and special "knowledge" about tubes. Seems that knowledge should include heater current of the tubes you use and recommend.
  
 I know you almost always insist on having the last word, so this is all I'll say on this subject today.


----------



## connieflyer

Well, spoken @pctazhp , I think that at this point dl is not listening to friendly advice.  He has constantly pushed the limits, and even though corrected time and again, refuses to adhere to the manufacturers maximum power draw for the heaters. If he doesn't know what the current draw for individual tubes, information is available on-line from many sources, and if all else fails, he could ask for advice on this forum. If I don't know, I ask, no big deal that I don't know everything. I think it is just that he wants to be the first to come out with a new combination to wow us all with his discovery.  He doesn't wait till he knows it is a safe combination before jumping out in front to say how his last find is even better than the established experts, even H1 has repeatedly said to let him try these combos first, to protect your gear, and he would run the info past Lukasz to see what they think.  It is not like you are asking for info and have to wait months to see results.  He is way to impatient, new readers are not likely to back track through this thread for pages trying to find the correct answer, they are going to assume since he has been hanging around here, he knows what he is doing, and in reality, he just does not, or will not, take the time to double check his work.  I feel bad for new folks that have to see this and wonder what is going on with this gear. I believe he should be given this one last warning, and if he does it again, should be banned. My thoughts.


----------



## DecentLevi

And in what regard is it acceptable to make defamatory statements about another user for a small mishap even after they've already said they will not do it anymore and it had knowledged thr mistske? in fact it was just a small test in the process of rolling a few tubes yesterday, I had edited my post, confirmed nothing untoward resulted in the slightest, and also I am not even going to be getting any more tubes so there's no reason for concern of my doing it again. I was only the 2nd time and for some it can take some practice to learn something. you may want to look at the last page to notice that I have made positive contributions so that you could possibly look at the glass as half-full rather than half empty


----------



## connieflyer

Mainly because you keep on doing the same thing, rolling in tubes without regard for performance specs.  If this was the first time you had done this, than fine, but this is not the first time you have been careless like this. It does not bode well for people to push the envelope of this amp, without regard to the manufacturers specifications. If you caused no "apparent" harm, consider yourself lucky. Will the next person that tries it have the same "luck"? This is an electrical circuit, sure you only put the tubes in for a short time, "your short test", it does not take much time to have a component overload and fail. face it you got lucky.  How many chances do you need before you see, it is your mistake for going outside the parameters of the manufacture, stay inside their recommendations and I have no problem. You already have had one Elise burn out on you, and just because if fits, does not mean it works.


----------



## pctazhp

I don't know if I have posted this before, but I always feel great when I watch it. This morning I'm singing it to my Elise/EL11ST/EL12ST, because this song describes exactly how I am feeling right now as I listen.


----------



## hypnos1

hplobster said:


> Meanwhile, I have reached the honeymoon phase with my Elise. I am truly in love with her... LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, HP...I think we can safely say you are now a fully paid up member of the "Feliks-Audio Mad Hatters Party" lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...WELCOME!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (yet another not to heed my dire warnings!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







). But I'm sure your enterprising spirit will be greatly rewarded..._*fingers crossed!!*_





...
  
 Re. your last sentence, H13 summarises things very well below. Given the slight differences between all these tubes - especially allowing also for different setups! - I suppose it comes down (once again lol!) to which you can get the best $ deal on, and/or just how _*enthusiastic*_ you want to be!! I personally prefer the 12 'Spezials' over either the standard ST or 12N...._*in my system & my ears*_. But I would _not_ say the difference is _significant_...And then there's the issue of _hum_ that you will need to sort with the Spezials...so a few things to think about...(except it looks like you've already decided LOL!!!...GOOD MAN!!...ENJOY!...).


howie13 said:


> I don't know mordy but it would be a very good idea, given how good they can sound.
> 
> Thinking generally, I appreciate that some of the tubes we find very good for Elise will almost certainly not all be suitable for Euforia, but I've been listening just now to EL12spez powers with EL11 drivers, all RFT's*, and I can't imagine how this combination of sweet clarity and huge sound-stage wouldn't suit Euforia too. Would probably sound even better, hard though that is* *to imagine*.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I agree there don't appear to be _significant_ differences between these EL12s...but who knows what different gear might throw up lol?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...hopefully, nothing that can't be surmounted...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 These combos could have been _made_ for Euforia....even if they do 'measure' off-piste!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







....
  
 "Hard to imagine", H13?....all I can say is - _*Beware the Wolf!*_...(mind you, I suspect the difference from Elise could be a bit less with these EL tubes, compared to more 'standard' ones...but even so, I'm pretty sure Euforia takes these 11s and 12s to heights _*beyond*_ what one could imagine - and probably does indeed increase the gap between the 12 and 12 Spezial lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> And in what regard is it acceptable to make defamatory statements about another user for a *small mishap *even after they've already said they will not do it anymore and it had knowledged thr mistske? in fact it was just a small test in the process of rolling a few tubes yesterday, I had edited my post, confirmed nothing untoward resulted in the slightest, and also I am not even going to be getting any more tubes so* there's no reason for concern of my doing it again.* I was only the* 2nd time* and for some it can take some practice to learn something. you may want to look at the last page to notice that I have made positive contributions so that you could possibly look at the glass as half-full rather than half empty


 
  
 Hey DL...I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I simply cannot let go unchallenged your gross understatement of the times you have been corrected regarding statements and 'advice' you have given on this thread. I personally have had to do so _*multiple*_ times, and has also occasioned several members at least the need to previously report you to the moderators.
  
 I _very _recently _pleaded_ with you to please check your information more carefully before posting, and yet you repeated the same mistakes again...hence the more vociferous comments made by senior members who only have at heart the interests of folks who do not have the same degree of knowledge/experience. It is no wonder that your continual (apparent) refusal to "learn something" when pointed out to you _*quite clearly*_ stirs frustration amongst a good few concerned members here. Please don't insult all these people in this way...we can't all have such short memories lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and please try to understand our motives are based _*solely*_ on the protection of others from misinformation that could possibly cause them expensive damage, let alone also be potentially embarrassing for Feliks-Audio.
  
 Please try to take these comments as an attempt to help you learn the need for greater caution when putting information out into the Public domain, DL..._please..._CJ


----------



## HOWIE13

Here's a nice Spanish Dance called 'Andalusia' with some suitable views. Pity the picture isn't better quality but the playing is very good.
  
 PS. Just learned that a string musical instrument maker is called a_ 'Luthier'  _I wasn't aware of the word before today. Almost as exciting as discovering a new tube-almost!


----------



## UntilThen

I overslept and miss my 3am appearance here. It's 6:51am now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Hence I miss one daily edition. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyhoo, here's the transcript of my conversation with Mrs Xu Ling:-
  
_Hi Mrs Xu Ling,

I've a question regarding the EL12 Spez adapters. A lot of my friends on the forum who bought these adapters say that there's a lot of hum due to ground loop. It's like an antenna that can pick up signals very easily. 

Is there anyway to isolate it? Perhaps have it teflon coated.- the wire that goes to the top anode.

Do you have any suggestion?

Regards
The Honourable UntilThen_
  
 Her reply
  
_hi,i know that,only connect sheild wire to Gnd .but nobody like adapter add extra wire.see my old version adapter 
Thanks!_
  
_...and this is a tiny picture of the old version adapter. That's 2 wires. More Octo***** for you._
  

  
  
 What do you think? Any suggestions on how she should do the dun adapter?


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I overslept and miss my 3am appearance here. It's 6:51am now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks UT. You are forgiven missing your daily column.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Do you, or anybody else, know what the end of the wire connects to?


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> @UntilThen. You showed us an impressive and *detailed *description of a world-class (I'm assuming that as I would not expect less of you) power cable. Unfortunately, you forgot one small detail. WHERE DID YOU GET IT????  Was that intentional? Do you just want us to envy your good fortune or will you at some point let us know the source????


 
  
*I shall share the secret of my 'HiFi' power cable. It's from the land of one billion people and each of them have at least one power cable.*
  
 This is the Australian plug
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/390992640016?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 This is the EU plug. Horrors of horrors where is the 3rd ground pin?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5m-Rhodium-Audio-4N-OFC-EU-PLUG-Mains-Cable-Amplifeir-Power-Cord-for-CD-DVD-/351211244925?tfrom=390992640016&tpos=top&ttype=price&talgo=undefined
  
 This is the US plug
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/cpg4s-1-5m-5ft-12mm-US-Mains-Power-OFC-Cable-Shield-Cord-IEC-Plug-Tube-Amp-HiFi-/301327823864?hash=item462889b3f8:g:jSMAAOSw-jhUIuhu
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/cpm4s-1-5m-5ft-16mm-US-Mains-Power-OFC-Cable-Shield-Cord-IEC-Plug-Tube-Amp-HiFi-/261605628023?hash=item3ce8e91877:g:RZYAAOSwd4tUHbHz
  
 When you want to splurge a bit more, here is a nicer looking cable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5m-US-mains-HIFI-AC-Power-Cord-Cable-Gaofei-Rhodium-Plug-Connector-/301833348019?hash=item4646ab63b3:g:-CYAAOSwx6pYrl2v
  

Band new top quality
*4N* copper conductor 3 core  wire Made in Taiwan
Cable overrall diameter 11.8mm
Single core diameter 4.3mm =4.0mm²   Total 12 mm²
Each core：7 x *solid 0.6mm* wire + 84 x* 0.18mm* copper wire 
Pure cotton wire for absorption
1 x *Aluminum Foil*-Polyester Tape Shield
1 X *Pure Copper* braided shield
*High quality **braid by mix PET and Copper grid* 
*Power plug：Rhodium Plated Gaofei Power Plug*
Length  : 1.5 Meter
 ​
  
 .. and when you really want to splurge and give Elise and Euforia your best... here's the pure copper and silver version
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5m-8N-OCC-Silver-US-mains-HIFI-AC-Power-Cord-Cable-Gaofei-Carbon-Rhodium-Plug-/291638716448?hash=item43e705a820:g:xwAAAOSwNphWbres
  
*Cable：*

Band new top quality
*7N OCC copper + Silver* *conductor wire **Made in taiwan*
Cable overrall diameter 18.5 mm
*L Wire：**6pin solid 0.6mm copper wire + 6 pin silver plated wire*
*N Wire：**6pin solid 0.6mm copper wire + 6 pin silver plated wire*
*E Wire：**4.0 mm OCC Copper Teflon cable*
Cotton wire for absorption
High quanlity Sleeving Braided PET+Copper 
*Gaofei *GF-CFR50M,CFR50 *Carbon Fiber Rhodium * Power Plug
*Hand-Made by Hifi-Acoustic Audio*
Length  : 1.5 Meter


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Thanks UT. You are forgiven missing your daily column.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I suppose to the top anode cap?


----------



## connieflyer

The other end??? Hope this was helpful!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> The other end??? Hope this was helpful!


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for the picture UT it reminds me I have to go do something. You are so helpful!!!


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> This is the EU plug. Horrors of horrors where is the 3rd ground pin?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5m-Rhodium-Audio-4N-OFC-EU-PLUG-Mains-Cable-Amplifeir-Power-Cord-for-CD-DVD-/351211244925?tfrom=390992640016&tpos=top&ttype=price&talgo=undefined




No horror.  This seems compatible with both the German type Schuko with the side contacts and the French type with the 3rd pin at the socket. Together these cover most of Europe but not UK or Ireland. The less obvious outliers would be Denmark, Italy and Switzerland. If in those countries, check the socket.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> No horror.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh I see. No wonder they mentioned 3 pin plug with ground but I see only 2 pins.
  
100% New & High Quality
 Length: 1.5M 5ft
 Material : 4N OFC 99.997% Oxygen Free Copper 3 Cores
 Cable overall diameter 10mm
 Single core diameter: 2.5mm *3
 Envelope material : PVC
Plug Material: Rhodanizing
Flame-dumb: V0 level of fire prevention materials.
Max Input : < 5500W
Specifications: 250V, 15A
*Plugs: EU 3 Pin mains plug to IEC Plug (EU)*


----------



## UntilThen

I brought out the 'old' Mac again. This is now my new layout. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
  
 and on the left of my L shaped 'executive' desk, is my amp corner.


----------



## Spork67

untilthen said:


> pctazhp said:
> 
> 
> > @UntilThen. You showed us an impressive and *detailed *description of a world-class (I'm assuming that as I would not expect less of you) power cable. Unfortunately, you forgot one small detail. WHERE DID YOU GET IT????  Was that intentional? Do you just want us to envy your good fortune or will you at some point let us know the source????
> ...


 
  
 Thanks  for that link UT.
 I just bought one.
 If you found it took Elise to even greater heights then I guess it can't hurt my own gear, which is currently (pun intended) using a cheap $6 kettle cord.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Oh I see. No wonder they mentioned 3 pin plug with ground but I see only 2 pins.




It is a bit strange to call that 3-_pin_. :regular_smile :

Btw, I forgot Malta. I think they are with UK and Ireland. I may have forgotten others. :wink_face:


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> Thanks  for that link UT.
> I just bought one.
> If you found it took Elise to even greater heights then I guess it can't hurt my own gear, which is currently (pun intended) using a cheap $6 kettle cord.


 
  
 I haven't gotten my power cord. It's cruising through the South China Seas and dodging the submarines and warships. If it gets here I'll be able to verify if it's better than the.... wait anything is better than the $6 kettle cord.


----------



## UntilThen

*Philips Miniwatt EL3N and Tung 5998*
  
 Today's tube combination review is the infamous EL3N and 5998. One day in Sept 2016, on a bright Spring day, where the robins sing and the young couple hug passionately, I had a moment of utopia. This is what possess me to write this review. It is at the height of my love for Elise and these tubes couldn't have come at a better time. Needless to say, I've nothing more to add. Just read the review again.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/6000#post_12235306
  
 Picture coming soon.


----------



## UntilThen

Gosh @Lorspeaker I miss you. When I see your avatar, my pulse quicken.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> _[COLOR=231F20]Hi Mrs Xu Ling,[/COLOR][COLOR=231F20]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=231F20]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=231F20]I've a question regarding the EL12 Spez adapters. A lot of my friends on the forum who bought these adapters say that there's a lot of hum due to ground loop. It's like an antenna that can pick up signals very easily. [/COLOR][COLOR=231F20]
> [/COLOR][COLOR=231F20]
> ...




That looks like a ground wire of _I don't know what_ to _I don't know where_. Also, I don't think that ground loop is the problem and I don't think that teflon would help.

What I think is needed is a shielded anode connection such as a coaxial wire with a wire and a shield. That's essentially what the foil-wrapped anode wires are. The big question is, where (if at all) to terminate the shield. I hope that 2359glenn can help here.


----------



## connieflyer

I have had a thought for a while I know go figure but since the tube only hums when it's in the driver position and not in the power position could it be the proximity to the Transformer causing RFI emission to be picked up by that wire when it's not shielded. Just a thought


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> That looks like a ground wire of _I don't know what_ to _I don't know where_. Also, I don't think that ground loop is the problem and I don't think that teflon would help.
> 
> What I think is needed is a shielded anode connection such as a coaxial wire with a wire and a shield. That's essentially what the foil-wrapped anode wires are. The big question is, where (if at all) to terminate the shield. I hope that @2359glenn can help here.


 
  
 Yo Oskari (and @UntilThen and @HOWIE13)...that particular photo can't relate to what has been talked about..._*where's the anode wire and cap lol?!!!...*_the pic is showing just a wire connection for the suppressor grid (#3) to be taken to ground - _*not*_ the anode wire! - and which means the cathode also is grounded, since the two are connected inside the tube.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> I have had a thought for a while I know go figure but since the *tube only hums when it's in the driver position *and not in the power position could it be the proximity to the Transformer causing RFI emission to be picked up by that wire when it's not shielded. Just a thought


 
  
 Hi cf...I think it's the other way round lol? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


----------



## connieflyer

No I am correct because you guys are on the other side of the world so looking at it from where I am there just opposite from what you see there for what I see is a hundred and eighty degrees difference from you are so the actually the driver tube is the power tube in the power tube is the driver to Ben if you put the extension cord up to the microphone you will hear it go pop when you plug in your headphones to your microwave oven. I hope that was clear. Unfortunately you're correct I give up! I concede to you, fearless leader!


----------



## UntilThen

Look !!!
  
 A picture of Elise with octopus wire and so nice !!!
  

  
 and it's reviewed by this guy. Can anyone make out what he is saying?
 http://eardrummer.pl/2016/11/20/recenzja-wzmacniacz-feliks-audio-elise-otl/


----------



## hypnos1

Hey cf...you nearly had me convinced there for a moment...especially as I'm nearly ready for bed lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Anyway, this hum lark sure is a bit of a teaser...especially as mine is negligible (in one channel only), and I have NO foil shielding around my teflon-tubed silver wire. Plus, some would theorize that strictly, such shielding could actually _*increase*_ the antenna effect lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...so more info/study/assistance needed, but for me, it's time for at least a couple of tracks before zzzzzzzz. G'night!!...


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Look !!!
> 
> A picture of Elise with octopus wire and so nice !!!




That amp is seriously quiet. It's not connected to anything. 




untilthen said:


> and it's reviewed by this guy. Can anyone make out what he is saying?
> http://eardrummer.pl/2016/11/20/recenzja-wzmacniacz-feliks-audio-elise-otl/




tl;dr. 

translate.google.com


----------



## Spork67

oskari said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Look !!!
> ...


 

to making full use of the possibilities you have to reckon with the exploration of better driving lamps


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> That amp is seriously quiet. It's not connected to anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok I google translate that. Basically he is saying that Elise is very good and to his surprise even sounded good on his low impedance TH600. 
  
 He also mentioned us - i.e the Head-Fi thread for reference. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 That is a Tung Sol 6F8G and I believe the adapter is from Feliks Audio because it's shown on their 2A3 amp picture on their website.


----------



## Oskari

spork67 said:


> to making full use of the possibilities you have to reckon with the exploration of better driving lamps :eek:




In other words, try other drivers!


----------



## UntilThen

spork67 said:


> to making full use of the possibilities you have to reckon with the exploration of better driving lamps


 
  
 Yup google translate call it lamps instead of tubes or valves. Maybe we should try rolling these for a brighter sound.


----------



## UntilThen

Look this is a beautiful picture from eardrummer and I hope he doesn't mind me showing his photography skill.


----------



## UntilThen

*Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Svetlana 6h13c*
  
 You get 2 reviews today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Why this combination? I wanted to show that Elise can sound really good with tubes that are readily available and cheap. Sylvania 6sn7 have a very clear, sweet tone that is loved by many. Coupled with the warmer, lusher tone of the russian Svetlana 6h13c, you get the best of both worlds. 
  
 I was inspired by how good Svetlana 6h13c can sound on La Figaro 339 and in Elise, it sounded just as good. Just need to pair it with a brighter driver and the cheaper Sylvania 6sn7gtb does the job perfectly.
  
 As I was writing this, I thought of how @angpsi  was enjoying his Elise with the upgraded stock tubes - Psvane 6sn7 and Svetlana 6h13c. I very much believe that the Psvane 6sn7 has a brighter tone too and Feliks Audio has pick the right driver for Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Yo Oskari (and @UntilThen and @HOWIE13)...that particular photo can't relate to what has been talked about..._*where's the anode wire and cap lol?!!!...*_the pic is showing just a wire connection for the suppressor grid (#3) to be taken to ground - _*not*_ the anode wire! - and which means the cathode also is grounded, since the two are connected inside the tube.


 
  
 I give up on this adapter. I wash my hands off it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Instead I'll ask you to consider this extremely rare beauties and order the adapters from Feliks Audio instead. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTREMELY-RARE-NOS-TUNGSOL-BLACK-ROUND-PLATE-38768F-PAIR-TUBES-6F8G-VT-231-6SN7-/401208304777?hash=item5d69e0e489:g:q8kAAOSw8gVX3K2Z
  

  
 oops old_guy_radiola  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










  .... 
  
 Those words doesn't look original. Like someone painted them on.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> oops old_guy_radiola       ....




Seriously? This guy?


----------



## pctazhp

I am so confused - especially about tiny picture of adapter not knowing what side of the earth I'm supposed to look at it from and whether I need to wash my hands - but also about other things.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And UT made me work twice as hard today.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Good night everyone


----------



## UntilThen

Good night? It's dim sum time for me.


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWvPOJOYqGA[/VIDEO]

_Time After Time _


----------



## UntilThen

_Comfortably Numb _


----------



## UntilThen

*Mazda 6N7G and Svetlana 6h13c*
  
 Mazda and Visseaux 6N7g are the same as far as sound is concern. I have both pairs and have verified it. Visseaux 6N7g is now with @connieflyer. Next to the Fivre 6N7g brown base, the Mazda 6N7g is the best performer of the 6N7g. It's a brighter tone than both the Mullard ECC31 and Fivre 6N7g brown base. Clarity and details in abundance and on the bright side of neutral, whilst retaining enough warm and lushness. I love the tone. 
  
 Unfortunately there are quite a few who have less than favorable experience with them as fas as hum is concern. In my Elise, they are dead quiet and has the most lovely glow of all my tubes.
  
 You can pair it with 5998, Bendix 6080wb or even GEC 6AS7G for an even greater stellar sound.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Ok I google translate that. Basically he is saying that Elise is very good and to his surprise even sounded good on his low impedance TH600.
> 
> He also mentioned us - i.e the Head-Fi thread for reference.
> 
> ...


 
 I've used 6F8G tubes with MrsX's adapter as a driver quite a few times in Elise and there's never any hums.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> I've used 6F8G tubes with MrsX's adapter as a driver quite a few times in Elise and there's never any hums.


 

 You lucky boi but don't you agree the other adapter is nicer? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I'm really curious if FA actually makes that.


----------



## UntilThen

Been using the headphones the whole day so it's time for some stereo music in the lounge. Lets' crank up the subwoofer.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> You lucky boi but don't you agree the other adapter is nicer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes I agree it does look very stylish in that picture. 
  
 I've also been lucky with my present superb sounding set-up as it hasn't buzzed for nearly 12 hours, except when the wife walked in to water the flowers.
  
 I think this is probably Elise at her best, for my ears, as long as it doesn't buzz.
  
 Note the extra foil on the far right power tube anode connector-that  makes a big improvement.


----------



## UntilThen

When the wife looks for the foil and there's no more, you're gonna be in real trouble !!!

Is that a EL11 in brown base?


----------



## Spork67

howie13 said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > You lucky boi but don't you agree the other adapter is nicer?
> ...


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> When the wife looks for the foil and there's no more, you're gonna be in real trouble !!!
> 
> Is that a EL11 in brown base?


 
 HAHA I've already been in trouble about using up all the kitchen foil so I went and bought my own supply and have hidden it in my man tube cave.
  
 Sorry I should have said those are Telefunken EL11 drivers, and for powers the brown base RNW EL12spez coupled with a Telefunken EL12spez for the left channel, and on the right channel another Telefunken EL12spez coupled with an RFT EL12spez.
  
 I would have preferred all the same manufacturer of tube but I don't have enough of them.
  
 I think, in the absence of being able to make a well shielded adapter, like H1 has successfully achieved, the solution to the hum is going to be a trial and error individual matter, based on one's own room and local interference, like RF, etc.
  
 Interestingly the dual power set-up doesn't hum any more than the single one. I've realised it's better to wrap the foil round the wire a few times, too thin isn't as good, even though it's neater.
  
 I've still got my Faraday cage, aka Ikea utensil holder, in case of emergencies, but I've got my fingers crossed just now that most of the humming will have ceased.


----------



## UntilThen

Simple solution. Tell the wife not to walk around but she might come at you with the rolling pin. 
  
 Orientation is important. You must face the sun. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You can tell I'm sceptical. I was about to post an impression of EL12N as drivers and EL12 as powers because it was so interference free but just as I was about to make the post, it started producing a groaning sound on my right headphone channel with no music playing. I thought I must have heard wrongly so I waited and listen again. Sure enough it came on again and thereafter at short regular intervals. This is getting spooky so I shut it down and have gone back to Figaro. I'll switch Elise to some other tubes later. I'm not sure what's going on. Is one of EL12 tubes going off? When I turn it upside down, I can hear some pieces of glass sound. However I am done buying more EL tubes.
  
 Not even if I'm El Desperado !!!


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  thanks for alerting me to Alison Krauss's new album. I am listening to it now on Tidal HiFi and it's lovely lovely.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Simple solution. Tell the wife not to walk around but she might come at you with the rolling pin.
> 
> Orientation is important. You must face the sun.
> 
> ...


 
 The vibrations from your cranked up sub-woofer has probably damaged that tube. (only joking)


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> The vibrations from your cranked up sub-woofer has probably damaged that tube. (only joking)


 

 Probably. It's a really mean subwoofer.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Probably. It's a really mean subwoofer.


 
  
 Bone-cruncher.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Simple solution. Tell the wife not to walk around but she might come at you with the rolling pin.
> 
> Orientation is important. You must face the sun.
> 
> ...


 

 I hate to be a foil (*), but in the course of human events not all EL11/12s are created equal. Right now I'm facing the morning sun and enjoying glorious music with mine. But I certainly don't want to rub it in.
 ____________________________________
  
 * Definition of "foil":
_a_ :  to prevent from attaining an end :  defeat _always able to foil her enemies_ _Her accident foiled her from becoming a dancer.__b_ :  to bring to naught :  thwart _foiled the plot_ _Police foiled an attempted robbery._
  

  
 It's the three amigos. Elise, EL11 and EL12


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I hate to be a foil (*), but in the course of human events not all EL11/12s are created equal. Right now I'm facing the morning sun and enjoying glorious music with mine. But I certainly don't want to rub it in.


 
  
 I'll trade you my personally signed russian Fotons and Svetlana for your EL tubes. Fair exchange?


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'll trade you my personally signed russian Fotons and Svetlana for your EL tubes. Fair exchange?


 

 This tube for your subwoofer.


----------



## Frederick Rea

untilthen said:


> Look !!!
> 
> A picture of Elise with octopus wire and so nice !!!
> 
> ...


 
 Well. I must insiste to newcomers in this combo. Try it, even against these new (old) EL12/EL11's. I have to my best sounding (IMO) setup 2x GEC6ASG (powers) and Tung Sol 6F8G (drivers) (mine are not "NAVY" but are genuine Tung Sol Brandt). It is not cheap but puts ELISE at an unmatched height. I bought two different pairs of adapters from Mrs Xuling one white and one black this one with a regular porcelain base and best pins (like those pins from WooAudio). This last one is the best (IMO) with no humm at all, and no antenna problem

ValveBrandtAdsGain (Mu)VoltsITransc.6F8GTung Sol 206.30,63000A1834/ 6AS7GM.W.T. G.E.C.Brown Base26,32,57000
 NOTE: Don't twist anode wire around the valve
 I have, as well Audioquest Power cord and "Snake Oil" HiFi fuse (IMO as Psico). Psico is important in personal sound


----------



## Frederick Rea

UPDATED 2017-03-05 21:34 UTC
 THIS IS THE FIRST STEP TO BEGIN WITH TUBE ROLLING: Learn Specifications
 Because sometimes it helps:
  
 Note: Please advise for any error
  

 DRIVERS     ValveAdsGain (Mu)VoltsITransc.Notes6F8G 206.30,63000*b6SN7GTB 206,30,63000 6N7G 356,30,83100*b7N7 206,30,6 *bC3G 406,30,4 *bCV181-TII 206,30,6  ECC31 326,31 *bEL3N 196,30,9 *bEL6 206,31,2 *bEL11 256,30,9 *bEL12 186,31,2 *bEL12N 186,31,2 *bFDD20 33*12,6*0,4 **a*, *b        POWERS     ValveAdsGain (Mu)VoltsITransc.Notes6H13C 26,32,5  A1834/ 6AS7GBrown Base26,32,57000 7236 4,86,32,412500 5998domino4,86,32,414000 6AS7G 26,32,57000        Notes      *aHeater *External* Power ~ or = Needed     *bAdapter for 6SN7 Needed


----------



## pctazhp

frederick rea said:


> Well. I must insiste to newcomers in this combo. Try it, even against these new (old) EL12/EL11's. I have to my best sounding (IMO) setup 2x GEC6ASG (powers) and Tung Sol 6F8G (drivers) (mine are not "NAVY" but are genuine Tung Sol Brandt). It is not cheap but puts ELISE at an unmatched height. I bought two different pairs of adapters from Mrs Xuling one white and one black this one with a regular porcelain base and best pins (like those pins from WooAudio). This last one is the best (IMO) with no humm at all, and no antenna problem
> 
> ValveBrandtAdsGain (Mu)VoltsITransc.6F8GTung Sol 206.30,63000A1834/ 6AS7GM.W.T. G.E.C.Brown Base26,32,57000
> NOTE: Don't twist anode wire around the valve
> I have, as well Audioquest Power cord and "Snake Oil" HiFi fuse (IMO as Psico). Psico is important in personal sound


 

 Hmmmm. As I already own the GEC 6AS7G, this presents me with a dilemma. Do I now pursue the 6F8G??? Life always offers new and unexpected challenges. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Maybe I should just be satisfied listening to this:


----------



## connieflyer

Good choice! Well, you were a small part of our organization, and we were proud to have you as part of the Navy, we did not want to guard the gates or brig anyways!!!!!!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Good choice! Well, you were a small part of our organization, and we were proud to have you as part of the Navy, we did not want to guard the gates or brig anyways!!!!!!


 

 I am always proud to be of service to mankind in any way I can.
  
 Since you are finally awake, this is for your morning listening enjoyment (such as it might be given the current status of your home entertainment situation) and inspiration.


----------



## connieflyer

Used to watch that on television way back before dirt was made. Had the whole set of vhs tapes from the entire series. Very interesting what men did, or had done to them. Still have the three vinyl albums,  actually had some good music, like under the southern cross, for instance. I must admit, even though you guarded us, while we were not watching, (complacent from your safety?) you stole all the  nurses!
  
 A little tango perhaps?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Used to watch that on television way back before dirt was made. Had the whole set of vhs tapes from the entire series. Very interesting what men did, or had done to them. Still have the three vinyl albums,  actually had some good music, like under the southern cross, for instance. I must admit, even though you guarded us, while we were not watching, (complacent from your safety?) you stole all the  nurses!
> 
> A little tango perhaps?





 One of the first things I remember watching on TV. I was mesmerized by it. Still vivid in my mind.
  
 Edit:  Just remembered that I had the original album on 45 RPMs. This was always one of my favorite.


----------



## connieflyer

With words it becomes something else...


----------



## connieflyer

I remember so vividly when this theme song came on I would be on the run to sit and watch, Dad did not have to call me, just the opening notes were enough.


----------



## connieflyer

And since I don't have anything much to do will waiting for Euforia I just downloaded all 26 episodes, and will watch again. Not much on tube anyways, thanks for reminding me


----------



## HPLobster

hypnos1 said:


> Well, HP...I think we can safely say you are now a fully paid up member of the "*Feliks-Audio Mad Hatters Party*" lol!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hehe, thank you! Well... since I´ve been chasing the "white rabbit" my whole life, I guess I´m in the right place here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 These beautiful....BEAUTIFUL grown man´s toys arrived over the last couple of days:
  





  
 As I mentioned a few times before....I´ll probably face an acid test waiting on these darn adapters to arrive, let´s hope Mrs.Adapter lives up to the praise she receives here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I´m confident that I am going to be able to post my impressions on these "lamps" over the next few weeks...that is....if someone is interested in reading a newcomer´s opinion after all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Maybe I can manage to give the Valvo 6080s a listen this weekend at least...


----------



## HPLobster

BTW: My father recently visited me and called the tubes "lamps"...he was like: "Oh, you are taking this hobby pretty serious, hm? You even bought this thing with lamps on it....what are these for? Do they actually produce sound....like bells???" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











  He is a concertmaster in a major orchestra, I must add...I guess everyone has other priorities in life, right?!


----------



## hypnos1

hplobster said:


> Hehe, thank you! Well... since I´ve been chasing the "white rabbit" my whole life, I guess I´m in the right place here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
*NICE *collection HPL...you have indeed fallen down this bottomless hole lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And be assured, there'll be _*many*_ eager to hear what you have to say!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but be warned...you'll find there simply aren't enough hours in the day LOL!!...so, GOOD LUCK! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  


hplobster said:


> BTW: My father recently visited me and called the tubes "lamps"...he was like: "Oh, you are taking this hobby pretty serious, hm? You even bought this thing with lamps on it....what are these for? Do they actually produce sound....like bells???"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Concertmaster?...this could prove VERY interesting indeed when you slap those cans over his ears lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but NOT until the amp and tubes have had good, _*long*_ burn-in! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and he too will probably need "burning in" to get used to such a different sound from what he has lived with, of course!!).


----------



## UntilThen

Morning everyone. The secret to the British Throne is back again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Guess what? My EL12N and EL12 is silence of the lamb again. Zip, no noise at all. After I threaten to smash it, it's silent now. Talking stern to your tubes helps sometimes. Oh boy, these tubes does sound good when you're not listening for hum.
  
@Frederick Rea ,  Tung Sol 6f8g black round plates and GEC 6as7g may sound good but mint condition pairs of those will set you back more than Elise. Besides much as I love 6sn7 and 6as7 tone, I much prefer EL tubes tone. It's the secret to the British Throne or Thrown however Pct puts it. Lawyers never get their words right.


----------



## UntilThen

@hypnos1 ,  Feliks Audio Elise is being sold by this audio shop in Malaysia, Petaling Jaya, Selangor. 
  
 https://shop.amplifiedhead.com/products/Feliks-Audio-Elise/1085
  
 .... and your photo is featured there.


----------



## UntilThen

It's being distributed in Bangkok, Thailand too. They are really going worldwide.
  
 Euforia is available there too. B70,900 !!!
  
 Wow 70,900 baht is US$2026. Guys you got your Euforia cheap. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Boy, Lukasz either have to expand or work 24/7 forever.
  
 http://www.bkkaudio.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1430
  
 What happened to the guy who wanted to be a distributor in the US?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> @hypnos1 ,  Feliks Audio Elise is being sold by this audio shop in Malaysia, Petaling Jaya, Selangor.
> 
> https://shop.amplifiedhead.com/products/Feliks-Audio-Elise/1085
> 
> .... and your photo is featured there.


 
  
 Well well, UT...fame at last lol!!...thanks for the nod 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...WELL SPOTTED!..
  
 But oh my...that photo of mine belongs in a museum now!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Ah well, can't have it all! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 Nice to see the Feliks-Audio name spreading further afield - they certainly deserve it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Better go keep my good lady company for a few minutes, I suppose!  BFN...


----------



## HPLobster

hypnos1 said:


> Concertmaster?...this could prove VERY interesting indeed when you slap those cans over his ears lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, he has been working as a concertmaster for over 25 years now...of course I couldn´t resist letting him listen to my setup.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 he certainly also did ask for it...

 I don´t intent to go too much off-topic here, but I should mention that he takes the view that no sound and/or recording system in this world could possibly reproduce the truth of actual music being played...by far... At home he only listens to some ancient LPs on his Harman Kardon stereo that is probably 30 years old... and that´s it...

 I let him listen to Bruckner´s Third Symphony with Celibidache and the Munich Philharmonics...not even a particularly special recording quality-wise...but a deeply moving one IMHO... he listened almost through the entire first movement before saying something...I was sitting there on a sofa two meters behind him, trying not to breathe too loudly...he showed absolutely no reaction other than listening very concentrated with his eyes closed the whole time....my heart was really pounding ..LOL
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So he stopped, put the headphones down and at first actually just said these words: "Yes, I see now...!" He stated that he had never ever heard an orchestral recording that real before. That took a load of my mind actually 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 He was emphatic about the dynamics and the micro-details, conveying the atmosphere and ultimately the emotion...

 He then asked for something with better quality and I played my DSD/MFSL - recording of Patricia Barber´s Cafe Blue and after a few minutes he was like..... yeah, I never heard something like this my whole life 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Before he left he implored me at least three times to ONLY feed the Mojo/Elise/HD800-combo with high quality recordings, everything else wouldn´t do it justice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Next time he visits, I´m going to be even better prepared ...


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Next time he visits, I´m going to be even better prepared ...


 
  
 Next time he visit, you must have the Euforia ready. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   ..... and give him your Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Good job Lobster in convincing the concertmaster. That's a great endorsement.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the claim of an 'audiophile' that his 1 inch wonder fuse has done to his system.
  
"Anyway the black fuse has put beautiful timbre in my tone, see through in my sound stage, vibrato in the voices, swinging pace with the bass, openness in the air, tension in the fret-tion of the viola, tam tam in the tom tom.  It has hidden my speakers and I can't find them."  
  
 ... I'm wondering what kind of fuse did he have before the wonder fuse? A plastic fuse?
  
 hidden his speakers and can't find them... ho ho ho


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Next time he visit, you must have the Euforia ready.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hehe, upgraditis/tube-amp-frenzy or not, this exchange is not going to happen any time soon.... I´m going to enjoy my new delicious acquisition now for a while and successfully ignore the Euforia 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Remember that I was (officially confirmed) the last buyer of the Elise before the Euforia was announced, the same day @connieflyer and @pctazhp reached their HS-status btw


----------



## HPLobster

The Valvo 6080s are gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. I´m speechless right now...


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Hehe, upgraditis/tube-amp-frenzy or not, this exchange is not going to happen any time soon.... I´m going to enjoy my new delicious acquisition now for a while and successfully ignore the Euforia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Last of the Mohicans. If you know the story, it's quite tragic and full of adventures. Well, being the last means that you bought Elise at $699 instead of $849 now but with better noise cancellation and extended warranty. Enjoy your Elise ! I did with mine for 1.5 years before I went for the Euforia and in that time, Elise has repaid me countless hours of musical bliss. It's still an absolute gem as far as I'm concern and I got it for $649.
  


hplobster said:


> The Valvo 6080s are gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. I´m speechless right now...


 
  
 Ha... if they are Mullard 6080 equivalent, you have reasons to be very happy with them. 
  
 For a long while, these were my go to power tubes:-
  
 Tung Sol 5998
 Tung Sol 7236
 Chatham 6AS7G
 Mullard 6080
  
 I've said in the past that these are all you need as power tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Ear pads washing day today. A once every 2 to 3 months ritual. This is better than changing fuse trust me.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Last of the Mohicans. If you know the story, it's quite tragic and full of adventures. Well, being the last means that you bought Elise at $699 instead of $849 now but with better noise cancellation and extended warranty. Enjoy your Elise ! I did with mine for 1.5 years before I went for the Euforia and in that time, Elise has repaid me countless hours of musical bliss. It's still an absolute gem as far as I'm concern and I got it for $649.
> 
> 
> Ha... *if they are Mullard 6080 equivalent*, you have reasons to be very happy with them.
> ...


 
 This guy lists the Mullard and Valvo 6080s as equivalents in his thread (see "tier IId)"), I based my ebay-venture on him in this case.
  
 http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
  

 The stock-Svetlanas are out the window forever.
 Right now I´m throwing as much as I can at these tubes, because I still cannot believe what I´m hearing. In terms of clarity, wonderful timbre, dynamics, layering, separation, smoothness 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 I am overwhelmed. I am now a believer. I can only imagine what the other tubes you all cherish are going to accomplish.

 This is what my expectations towards the Elise were at best....my HD 800 really sings now. I still almost find it hard to believe that just a "simple" pair of different power tubes could achieve that much in such a complex chain of technology, but what can I say, I´m listening to it right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My wife and my daughter are asleep...it´s all calm and quiet...I´m pouring myself a glass of Lagavulin and enjoy life for now...


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> I am overwhelmed. I am now a believer. I can only imagine what the other tubes you all cherish are going to accomplish.


 
  
 ...and what drivers were you using with the Valvo 6080 to experience epiphany? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 When you try the EL11, EL12 spez, you will witness the parting of the Red Sea.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> ...and what drivers were you using with the Valvo 6080 to experience epiphany?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Just the good old Psvane 6SN7s...so still plenty of room for further gains


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Just the good old Psvane 6SN7s...so still plenty of room for further gains


 
  
 That will be revealing. Perhaps a bit on the bright side. I do like to see the sun occasionally but when you get your EL3N adapters do try this. It will expand the stage, triple the layers, air abundant and joy forever.
  
 Btw you should have gotten a nice cheap NOS pair of EL3N from http://www.acoustic-dimension.com at 20 euros each.


----------



## aqsw

After 1 day T1s vs Ether Cs

Soundstage T1 much better
Comfort Ether better
Low volume Ether better
High volume T1 better

I do hear the treble spike at high volumes with T1
Elise starts clipping at 12 oclock with Ethers, 2 oclock with T1s ( but volume is too high at these levels)
Female vocals Ether
Male vocals T1
Volume marching by my ear. Plus 1-1.5 on the Ethrrs

Overall, it's a tie.
As of riht now, I'm keeping them both.

I use the Ethers for movies as I find them a tad more comfortable.


----------



## UntilThen

There's no way I could hit 2pm on my T1. Approaching 12noon and my ear drums are about to shatter.
  
 Good review @aqsw  I've not heard an Ether-C but sounds like they are complimentary.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> There's no way I could hit 2pm on my T1. Approaching 12noon and my ear drums are about to shatter.
> 
> Good review @aqsw
> I've not heard an Ether-C but sounds like they are complimentary.




Like I've noted before, I really believe I've got a lemon.

It still sounds so nice though, even though I can't use the tubes you do. I lost alot on my Mazdas and Ts 5998s because they would just distort in my amp.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> That will be revealing. Perhaps a bit on the bright side. I do like to see the sun occasionally but when you get your EL3N adapters do try this. It will expand the stage, triple the layers, air abundant and joy forever.
> 
> Btw you should have gotten a nice cheap NOS pair of EL3N from http://www.acoustic-dimension.com at 20 euros each.


 
  
 Much obliged! I am most certainly going to try this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 As a matter of fact, after I already had paid a L-O-T on the EL12 spez and the EL11, I actually got the EL3N fairly cheap over here:
  
 https://www.btb-elektronik.de/search?filter=EL3n


----------



## Oskari

hplobster said:


> This guy lists the Mullard and Valvo 6080s as equivalents in his thread (see "tier IId)"), I based my ebay-venture on him in this case.




If your Valvos have codes like the tube shown here

https://www.sokoll-technologies.de/Museum/Auto/Roehren/04/04428/04428.html

they were made by Mullard ("Philips UK").

AJ = 6080. R = Mullard, Mitcham.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Like I've noted before, I really believe I've got a lemon.
> 
> It still sounds so nice though, even though I can't use the tubes you do. I lost alot on my Mazdas and Ts 5998s because they would just distort in my amp.


 
  
 No matter. At least EL3N and EL12N works well for you and that's near the top of the pile. When you consider how much the EL3N and EL12N cost compared to TS 5998, it's a real bargain for quality sound.


----------



## HPLobster

oskari said:


> If your Valvos have codes like the tube shown here
> 
> https://www.sokoll-technologies.de/Museum/Auto/Roehren/04/04428/04428.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 All of them do have these codes:
  

  
 If I understood everything correctly, this means they were made during the third week of February 1960, by *Mullard, Mitcham.*
  
 So I guess this means that I have not gone completely bonkers, having an "epiphany" and all that


----------



## UntilThen

These are my Mullard 6080 and they have a different code but still have that 'YES' moment. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aah0004.htm


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,
  
 Thank you for your chart. Would it be possible to add the following to your chart with the specs?
  
 6N7G
  
 EL11
  
 EL12
  
 EL12N
  
 EL6
  
 A question: I have both the 5998 and the 7236. Even though the amplification factor is the same for both, 4.8, my impression is that the 5998 plays louder. What could account for that?
  
 Is there any rule in matching the gain between the driver and power tubes in the Elise?


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> No matter. At least EL3N and EL12N works well for you and that's near the top of the pile. When you consider how much the EL3N and EL12N cost compared to TS 5998, it's a real bargain for quality sound.




I totally agree. I would never have ordered the Euforia if I didn't find thst combo.


----------



## Oskari

hplobster said:


> If I understood everything correctly, this means they were made during the third week of February 1960, by *Mullard, Mitcham.*




Yes, except 1960 is not possible because the week number is there. 1970 seems likely.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi FR,
> 
> Thank you for your chart. Would it be possible to add the following to your chart with the specs?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes have that updated and pin it on the front page. @HOWIE13 did one earlier too. I think the 5998 is louder because of the higher transconductance.


----------



## DecentLevi

hplobster said:


> BTW: My father recently visited me and called the tubes "lamps"...he was like: "Oh, you are taking this hobby pretty serious, hm? You even bought this thing with lamps on it....what are these for? Do they actually produce sound....like bells???"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wow I think he's onto something... maybe we shall try 'bell rolling' and see how them cowbells compare to jinglebells on the Elise... or wait, those are something to _make _sound rather than _reproduce _it, loL. Or we can cut energy costs by finding the brightest and warmest tubes as lamps / heaters for the room 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Nothing against your father intended at all - I also get a variety of strange recations to tubes, headphone costs, etc. from 'normal people' on occasion. And that's great for the Elise to get an endorsement from a concert master, even just using the PSVane + Valvo 6080's, right?


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I totally agree. I would never have ordered the Euforia if I didn't find thst combo.


 

 I am going to tempt you one more time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 When you have recovered from your euphoria, you may get a pair of Valvo or Telefunken EL12. I'm going to point you to 2 options that will hardly hurt your wallet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/EL12-375-VALVO-NOS-BOXED-VALVE-TUBE-/311569773322?hash=item488b01730a:g:fBEAAOSwMORW6-HU
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-power-tubes-TELEFUNKEN-NOS-EL-12-/311806841472?hash=item489922d280:g:l1IAAOSw241Ygz82
  
 ... because EL3N / EL12 sounds lovely too (midrange and subbass intoxication) and EL12N / EL12 will introduce a more articulate tone.


----------



## richdytch

Morning. Chatham 6AS7G and stock Tung Sol 6SN7GTB are doing a great job with this fellar today. These new Impulse and Blue Note pressings are gorgeous.


----------



## richdytch

Hmm, the Sylvania 6SN7WGT are actually doing a better job, but feel lacking in bass weight compared to the TSs. Nothing that a slight tweak to my sub can't sort out. The Sylvanias are a very nice sweet sounding tube.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Morning. *Chatham 6AS7G* and stock Tung Sol 6SN7GTB are doing a great job with this fellar today. These new Impulse and Blue Note pressings are gorgeous.


 


richdytch said:


> Hmm, the *Sylvania 6SN7WGT* are actually doing a better job, but feel lacking in bass weight compared to the TSs. Nothing that a slight tweak to my sub can't sort out. The Sylvanias are a very nice sweet sounding tube.


 
  
 Picking all the right tubes without costing an arm and a leg Rich. Good choice. Yes the TS 6sn7gtb has some bass punch.
  
 Nothing like spinning the occasional vinyl.


----------



## UntilThen

*EL12N and EL12*
  
 This is the first time that a tube perform equally well as both drivers and powers in Elise. Not only does it perform well but the tone is like none I've heard before. It even perform better than my favorite power tubes - TS 5998 and Bendix 6080wb.
  
 All combinations seems to be working very well. Such as:-
  
 EL11 and EL12
 EL11 and EL12N
 EL12N and EL12
 EL12 and EL12
 EL11 and EL12 Spez
 and even with quad EL11 / EL12 as powers - reference @HOWIE13 
  
 However equally frustrating is the fact that for some, these tubes can produce the annoying hum and feedback. Some have perfect operating conditions, such as @hypnos1 and @pctazhp.
  
 When it is working well with no hum, the sonic qualities of these tubes are absolutely captivating. Clarity, details, soundstage, treble extensions, midrange supremacy, bass factory, precise imaging and instruments placement, it's all there. I would categorize these tubes as on the slight bright side of neutral, which is how I like it. Warm and lushness is still there but the tone is like a clear spring day. These tubes might have the same data specs as EL3N but the tone is quite different. It is several degrees clearer and more articulate than EL3N. You get the same BIG presence that draws you into the performers' stage. 
  
 It's no surprise that the last 100 posts have been mainly devoted to EL11, EL12, EL12N and EL12 Spez....... and from the majority of Elise owners here. It is almost a unanimous decisions by everyone... I said 'almost'.


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Picking all the right tubes without costing an arm and a leg Rich. Good choice. Yes the TS 6sn7gtb has some bass punch.
> 
> Nothing like spinning the occasional vinyl.


 
  
 I'm playing more and more vinyl at the moment, because it just sounds so lovely. I've gone for sweet sounding cartridge and phono stage, and together with Elise/amp/speakers, it's a delightful combination.


----------



## HPLobster

decentlevi said:


> Nothing against your father intended at all - I also get a variety of strange recations to tubes, headphone costs, etc. from 'normal people' on occasion. And that's great for the Elise to get an endorsement from a concert master, even just using the *PSVane + Valvo 6080's*, right?


 
  
 Actually it was the PSVanes driving the Svetlana 6H13C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But as I implied before, he never was that interested in recordings and audio equipment, he had other foci he prioritized.
 The "best" headphone setup he had heard before was my Mojo/Oppo PM-3 - combination, he back then also was very impressed with. However during that session he only listened to his beloved "Eagles" and things like that... The Oppo PM-3s has a special place in my heart, but as much as I love them as closed cans, I instantly knew that - regarding classical music - I shouldn´t even bother trying to impress/convince him using them.
  
 Last time, he was curious and also asked me to play the same DSD/Patricia Barber - recording over the Mojo/PM-3....he stopped listening after 10 seconds, the result was unambiguous...
  
 I think it´s safe to say that the Elise/HD800 - setup blew him away (with high-quality recordings) all in all.


----------



## Frederick Rea

Data Sheet UPDATED
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/7215#post_13312198
  
 Note: If PC would you like to Pin it to the first page, please do it


----------



## pctazhp

frederick rea said:


> Data Sheet UPDATED
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/813488/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary/7215#post_13312198
> 
> Note: If PC would you like to Pin it to the first page, please do it


 
 Done. Great work and post. Thanks so much ))))


----------



## Frederick Rea

Thank you anyway. We are hear to help and be helped
  
 Someone could teach HOW to find *TOTAL "SAFE Vf and If" for ELISE*, it would be nice for GOOD MANNERS in this rolling and pin it to the first page as well
 for Elise it is between 6,8 and 7 Maximum Total _Current_


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> *EL12N and EL12*
> 
> When it is working well with no hum, the sonic qualities of these tubes are absolutely captivating. Clarity, details, soundstage, treble extensions, midrange supremacy, bass factory, precise imaging and instruments placement, it's all there. I would categorize these tubes as on the slight bright side of neutral, which is how I like it. Warm and lushness is still there but the tone is like a clear spring day. These tubes might have the same data specs as EL3N but the tone is quite different. It is several degrees clearer and more articulate than EL3N. You get the same BIG presence that draws you into the performers' stage.


 
  
 Your description is entirely consistent with my experience. Thanks for all your hard work on describing different combos. Is this your last one? Did you save this as the best for last? Or are there more to come in your current series???


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> I am going to tempt you one more time. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> When you have recovered from your euphoria, you may get a pair of Valvo or Telefunken EL12.





What about Siemens EL12? Are they in any way inferior?


----------



## pctazhp

hplobster said:


> What about Siemens EL12? Are they in any way inferior?


 

 I have Siemens EL12 ST.which I usually use for power Someone said they are made by someone else, but don't remember who said it or who they are made by.
  
 They are totally hum free in my system, and combined with EL11 drivers (round plate), are the best I have achieved with Elise. But no one ever listens to me, so probably you shouldn't either


----------



## connieflyer

Okay!


----------



## pctazhp

Okay??? It's Okie.
  
 Is there some strange person roaming around here in his sleep??????


----------



## connieflyer

Nope he is on the other thread!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Nope he is on the other thread!


 

 While he's gone, let's hear it for lawyers this morning. Can I get an AMEN????


----------



## connieflyer

Depends on how much you charge and what liability I would face by doing such a bold action!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Depends on how much you charge and what liability I would face by doing such a bold action!


 

 I have three hungry mouths to feed, not to mention an insatiable tube addiction that demands to always be fed first. So it's a lot


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,
  
 Thanks for the updated table. However, I could not find the amplification factor for EL11, EL12, EL12N and EL12 Spezial. Maybe we have to ask Oskari for the German word for amplification/gain factor on the spec sheets?
  
 Edit: Here are a number of spec sheets but I don't know the name of what I am looking for:
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/sheetsE1.html
  
 Actually, the name is Farsterkungsfaktor but I can't find it listed for the EL11-12 tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> What about Siemens EL12? Are they in any way inferior?


 
 Siemens are definitely not inferior to any EL12 or EL12N I've heard, including Telefunken, Valvo, RFT and RWN.
  
 I know it's tempting to try and define their differences but in all honesty I can't say they differ much, if at all.
  
 At one time I thought Telefunken and Valvo were a bit warmer and RFT and RWM a bit clearer and dynamic, but the more I listen and move the tubes around the more they all sound similar.
  
 All excellent sounding as UT has posted above. I just mix and match without looking any more at the manufacturer. I couldn't afford a full set of 4 or 6 of each anyway.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The only one which may be a bit different is the spez of any manufacturer which may be a little more neutral ie a little less bright at the top end-but it's all relative because all these EL11/12 tubes are only slightly bright of neutral anyway-nothing fatiguing, just enough to give vitality and energy to the music.


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi FR,
> 
> Thanks for the updated table. However, I could not find the amplification factor for EL11, EL12, EL12N and EL12 Spezial. Maybe we have to ask Oskari for the German word for amplification/gain factor on the spec sheets?
> 
> ...


 
 I posted these some time ago but it took me ages to find the answer and I've no idea where the post is now.
 By memory the EL12/12N/spez was, I think about 16, and EL11 was 25, or thereabouts.
  
 NB. I have a poor memory.


----------



## HPLobster

pctazhp said:


> I have Siemens EL12 ST.which I usually use for power Someone said they are made by someone else, but don't remember who said it or who they are made by.
> 
> They are totally hum free in my system, and combined with EL11 drivers (round plate), are the best I have achieved with Elise. *But no one ever listens to me, so probably you shouldn't either *


 
  
 HAHA... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ! Of course I listen to you, you´ve already helped me a lot! 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Siemens are definitely not inferior to any EL12 or EL12N I've heard, including Telefunken, Valvo, RFT and RWN.
> 
> I know it's tempting to try and define their differences but in all honesty I can't say they differ much, if at all.
> 
> ...


 
  
 These feedbacks are exactly what I´ve been hoping for.
 I´ve already decided not to buy "hastily" this time but to wait for the right opportunity on the EL12s, therefore it helps if I can spread the array more widely...especially since the Siemens EL12 are sold a little less expensive than the other ones.


----------



## Oskari

EL11 & EL12



 https://frank.pocnet.net/short/054/2/215.pdf
 https://frank.pocnet.net/short/054/2/225.pdf

Note that the value given is μg2g1, which is not the same as μ for triodes. This is true for other pentodes in the table as well.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 I am afraid that I do not understand what to look for in the charts - could you explain it clearer? Thanks


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> I am afraid that I do not understand what to look for in the charts - could you explain it clearer? Thanks


 
 Just looked on Philips datasheets for the amplificaton, following Oskari's information about the units to look for.
  
 EL11-  25
  
 EL12-  18 ( ? I presume all iterations of EL12 are the same ?)


----------



## richdytch

hplobster said:


> Just the good old Psvane 6SN7s...so still plenty of room for further gains


 
 Hi HPL, I love the Mullard 6080, it's the power tube I've come back to more than any other so far. It has oodles of depth and while sounding warm at the same time. It also seems to get on really well with whatever driver tube you throw at it. Pleased that there's some love for it out there, because I think it's not been shown enough!


----------



## Oskari

Mordy, it's the μ there. 18 for EL12 (etc.) and 23 for EL11 (etc.). But it's actually μg2g1.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Just looked on Philips datasheets for the amplificaton, following Oskari's information about the units to look for.
> 
> EL11-  25




Slightly differing info there.




howie13 said:


> EL12-  18 ( ? I presume all iterations of EL12 are the same ?)




Looks like it.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Slightly differing info there.
> Looks like it.


 
  Here's a photo of an interesting RFT box, within which was a tube dated 1955, with a stated current of 1.1A, instead of the expected 1.2A.
  
 Even RFT's own data sheet states 1.2A, so maybe it's a misprint, and not a big deal unless it's critical for determining the maximum tube current for Elise.


----------



## pctazhp

howie13 said:


> Siemens are definitely not inferior to any EL12 or EL12N I've heard, including Telefunken, Valvo, RFT and RWN.
> 
> I know it's tempting to try and define their differences but in all honesty I can't say they differ much, if at all.
> 
> ...


 

 Howie:  I just pinned this to first page. Thanks )))


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> *EL12N and EL12*
> 
> (...)
> It's no surprise that the last 100 posts have been mainly devoted to EL11, EL12, EL12N and EL12 Spez....... and from the majority of Elise owners here. It is almost a unanimous decisions by everyone... I said 'almost'.


 
 Well, I'm happy that @HPLobster and his concertmaster father confirm that I'm not entirely bonkers with how much I enjoy the stock Svets + Psvane setup.  Looking forward to your further impressions as you move on with your tube rolling venture! Just FIY, Lukasz suggested I might want to try out the Melz 6N8S since I'm up for this type of sound; and he didn't even tell me to buy the exotic, uber expensive ones!
  
 #EDIT: forgot to mention that @hypnos1 (who's the only one here who's had any experience with them) has found the Melz to be quirky—to say the least; and several other users seem to agree, but also say that when they work, they sing wonderfully. Just a word of caution.
  
 Still, as I wrote on the Euforia thread, just before I left I received the goods from my last spending spree on the EL tubes: 2x TF EL12st, 2x TF EL11, and on Valvo EL11 to pair with my other single one (oval plate, alas). This should be my last attempt to be sold to the EL sound; if it fails, be on the lookout for a massive dump of my inventory!
  
 Cheers! (—that's what spending one week in London does to you!)


----------



## pctazhp

Giving ELs a break. TS6SN7(original issue)/GEC6AS7G. Desk a mess. Life in a little better shape. Music??? PURE HEAVEN


----------



## HPLobster

angpsi said:


> Well, I'm happy that @HPLobster and his concertmaster father confirm that I'm not entirely bonkers with how much I enjoy the stock Svets + Psvane setup.  Looking forward to your further impressions as you move on with your tube rolling venture! Just FIY, Lukasz suggested I might want to try out the Melz 6N8S since I'm up for this type of sound; and he didn't even tell me to buy the exotic, uber expensive ones!
> 
> Still, as I wrote on the Euforia thread, just before I left I received the goods from my last spending spree on the EL tubes: 2x TF EL12st, 2x TF EL11, and on Valvo EL11 to pair with my other single one (oval plate, alas). *This should be my last attempt* to be sold to the EL sound; if it fails, be on the lookout for a massive dump of my inventory!
> 
> Cheers! (—that's what spending one week in London does to you!)


 
 Nice! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I shall put the Melz-tubes on my future "shopping list"!
 So, does this mean you have gathered bad impressions before or am I misinterpretating? Anyway, I am eagerly awaiting your impressions on the ELs!
  
  
 Cheers!  (that´s what wishing I could spend the weekend in London does to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Your description is entirely consistent with my experience. Thanks for all your hard work on describing different combos. Is this your last one? Did you save this as the best for last? Or are there more to come in your current series???


 
  
 That's it for now until the next wonder light bulb comes along. If EF80 and EF86 sounds good on Elise, you'll hear from me otherwise I've gone fishing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'll let others do their impressions now and will sit back with a vodka in one hand and a Cuban cigar in another..... oh it's not lighted cos I don't smoke.


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> What about Siemens EL12? Are they in any way inferior?


 
  
 Siemens EL12 are as good as the Valvos and Telefunkens. I've only listed the latter 2 because you can buy identical pairs and NOS.
  
 Looks like someone even bought the quad Siemens EL12.


----------



## Frederick Rea

mordy said:


> Hi FR,
> 
> Thanks for the updated table. However, I could not find the amplification factor for EL11, EL12, EL12N and EL12 Spezial. Maybe we have to ask Oskari for the German word for amplification/gain factor on the spec sheets?
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry
 Already updated
 H13. Yes it is. Thank you


----------



## HPLobster

mordy said:


> Hi FR,
> 
> Thanks for the updated table. However, I could not find the amplification factor for EL11, EL12, EL12N and EL12 Spezial. Maybe we have to ask Oskari for the German word for amplification/gain factor on the spec sheets?
> 
> ...


 
 Actually, the right spelling would be "Verstärkungsfaktor" - maybe this helps when search sweeping for it.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 No need to apologize for the tube combination that you like. We all have different equipment and taste, and the main thing is to enjoy the music and the listening experience.
  
 I am in an enviable position LOL because nobody can argue with me about what my best is since I don't know of anybody else who is running TFK EL11 with EL6 tubes as powers.,,,
  
 Re those Melz tubes, make sure that you get return privileges if you buy them; even Lukasz wrote that they had trouble supplying them since so many had to be rejected.


----------



## pctazhp

@HOWIE13  Sorry. Just realized I failed to complete pinning you. Now it's complete )))


----------



## mordy

Hi HP,
  
 You are right about the spelling. Even so, I could only find that line on the spec sheet for the EL6.
  
 My keyboard does not have the a with two dots above. In my native Swedish many words use the a with the two dots, as well an a with a small circle and an o with two dots.
  
 In the Oskari tradition of few words:
  
 å means river
  
 ö means island
  
 (Found a virtual Swedish keyboard)
  
 I still like the word Klirrfaktor which i think means

```
[left] Harmonic distortion [/left]
```


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> (...)
> Re those Melz tubes, make sure that you get return privileges if you buy them; even Lukasz wrote that they had trouble supplying them since so many had to be rejected.


 
 Definitely so; that's consistent to my own extensive online research. Really hoping to be able to hear them first before I buy; still trying to make time to finally meet my collector compatriot and have an extensive listening session on his wide selection of tubes! Hopefully he might have indulged in the Melzs as well...
  


hplobster said:


> Nice!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 As per @mordy 's note, be on the lookout to try only if you get return privileges (cf. my #EDIT note—haven't tried them myself yet, though). In regard to the ELs, you can find full reports of my adventures if you look back to my old posts in this thread or the Euforia thread (just click on my profile). I've found them to be very good, but I kept returning to the Svetlana plus Psvane for their more effortless sound signature. Perhaps I'm running on too much stress lately in my life, and I'm really desperate for some relaxing time while listening to music! IMO the ELs were too much of a demanding listen on my HD600s... But, as always, that's just me and my ears telling the tale! #minorityreport


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys...lots I'd love to say, but domestic responsibilities limit, alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Anyway :  @pctazhp...sorry, my own contribution to your first post is delayed...but it looks like you've got plenty already LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I really enjoyed your post on your Dad's response @HPLobster...can't wait for his reaction with other tubes in situ - but who knows...he might not like them lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
@aqsw...I really do hope you have more success with *ALL* your tubes in Euforia...certainly was strange, your experience with some of them in Elise! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
@angpsi...I hope you too manage to achieve nirvana with your EL tubes...some do appear to be more fortunate than others with these...GOOD LUCK! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Lastly, on the subject of gain/amplification...from what I've gathered, "gain" figures are purely _*max*_ ones - the actual _operational_ figure is determined by the amp's circuit configuration. _*And*_...this figure is the _*voltage*_ gain....not the final power output _*current*_. Plus, it appears that _*transconductance (gm)*_ could well be a much more useful measurement indicator than often realised lol?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Sorry...gotta go...BFN!


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 I agree with what you are saying - some tubes are so detailed that it is hard to relax while listening - they demand your complete attention LOL
  
 The best combination is the one where you can just enjoy the music, or, when you are in the mood, you can listen to all the details and nuances.
  
 Musical vs analytical - the best tubes combine both IMHO.


----------



## richdytch

While we are on the subject of Mullard 6080, or at least a few of us are... 
  
 I've noticed that one of mine has recently started emitting a single loud 'pop' sound when it's been switched on for roughly 10-15 minutes. Do you folks know if this is anything to worry about? Potentially a harbinger of worse things to come? 
  
 It's the only power tube I have which has ever done this. 
  
 Rich


----------



## angpsi

Thanks @mordy, it's all about listening pleasure after all, right? @HPLobster's dad might prove to be just the right kind of guinea pig in that respect, being at once untainted from the audiophile reproduction chain, yet baptised in the actual experience of being in the center of grand scale live music reproduction!
  
 Interestingly enough, I can't help but notice how Lukasz keeps steering me to reasonably priced alternatives (e.g. he also proposed me GE 6as7g as powers)... Still, as I said, next spending spree will be on the provision of ears–on experience! Hopefully...


----------



## pctazhp

@HPLobster  In 1972, following my 3 years in the military, I flew to Frankfurt, picked up a Mercedes 250C at the factory ($6,000), and spent the next 3 months camping my way through Europe including eastern Europe behind the then-Iron Curtain. One of my favorite memories was camping beside the River Elbe and enjoying your beautiful city before catching the ferry to Copenhagen. Good times


----------



## HOWIE13

I had a couple of 6080 and maybe 7236 tubes which made intermittent burping noises, maybe every 10 minutes or so and I just gave up on them as it was getting annoying.
 This was so long ago I can't even remember which exact tubes they were now. Possibly the Mullards or my 7236 Tung-Sols.
 I don't know if it's an harbinger of doom-the music wasn't affected.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> In the Oskari tradition of few words:
> 
> å means river
> 
> ...




I could perhaps start using more words if you all learned Finnish. :rolleyes:

See, e.g., this: http://www.hifiharrastajat.org/foorumi/showthread.php/45104-Tube-rolling-kokemuksia?p=1848765&viewfull=1#post1848765

We don't quite manage one-letter words but we are not shy of vowels.

yö = night, aie = intention.


----------



## pctazhp

Sylvania 6SN7WGT/GEC 6AS7G. Better color coordination.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Here's a photo of an interesting RFT box, within which was a tube dated 1955, with a stated current of 1.1A, instead of the expected 1.2A.
> 
> Even RFT's own data sheet states 1.2A, so maybe it's a misprint, and not a big deal unless it's critical for determining the maximum tube current for Elise.




1.2 amps is the specification but reality doesn't always match the specification. This tube (or lot?) could be closer to 1.1 amps in reality.


----------



## HPLobster

Wow, tough to keep with the posts - still enjoying the heck out of the Mullard 6080s in parallel...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
    @mordy That´s cool! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Didn´t know about these special Swedish letters yet...
    Klirrfaktor indeed means harmonic distortion, a strange word coining, even more confusing since many audio-magazines I used to read use just the word "Klirr" for it. "Klirr" is the sound dishes make when breaking on the floor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
@angpsi Hm, I will definitely watch out for return privileges. It may prove difficult since most Melz-tubes seem to be sold online from Ukraine and Russia. 
 Concerning your EL-(mis)adventures, I will definitely go back and read them. I am even more so interested in your opinion and observations now that you mentioned "effortless" and "relaxing" - the right cues. Despite reading over and over again about the fatiguing and strenuous nature of the HD 800s, I fortunately cannot confirm what many other reviewers (almost) made me believe and tend to find them very musical 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
    
@pctazhp Now that indeed sounds like GOOD TIMES 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am very glad you have such fond memories of Hamburg. Actually I´m not originally from here, just have been living in Hamburg for 3 years now, but as I also been around a lot it´s safe to say that at least it´s definitely the most beautiful German city there is.
  
 In return, I´d like to mention that one of the happiest memories of my life is a holiday I spent with my parents, my uncle and his wife back in 1999, RVing and camping in Arizona and Utah 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I still remember a boat trip we took on Lake Mead as if it was yesterday....it´s really beautiful over there


----------



## richdytch

Ok, thanks Howie. I think I'll just let the tubes warm up for 20 mins or so before i play anything. I don't think I've ever heard it happen later on.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Ok, thanks Howie. I think I'll just let the tubes warm up for 20 mins or so before i play anything. I don't think I've ever heard it happen later on.


 
 Maybe just as you say a warming up event. Several of my tubes ding dong to me for about 10 minutes on warm up. Like bells in the background- quite pleasant really.


----------



## Frederick Rea

FOR A REMINDER:
  

ELISE - Technical Specification - Model 2017 Web Pagehttp://feliksaudio.pl/en/products.php Input Impedance: 100 kOhm Frequency response: 10 Hz - 60 Khz +/- 3 dB (300 ohm) Power output: 200mW Pre-amp Gain: 20dB THD: 0.4 % (300 ohm, 20 mW) Headphones impedance: 32 - 600 ohm  *aHeadphones output: Jack 6.3mm AC:230V/120V (power cord included) Dimensions: 310x205x170 [mm]  Warranty3 years Max Load Current (TOTAL)for Tubes6.8A «» 7A*bImproved noise cancelling construction  Fuse5x20 mm; 1.6A; response: sluggish (T) Power Stock Tubes6AS7G (6N13S) Alternatives to Power Stock Tubes6080, 5998, 6N5P, 6N5S, ECC230, 7236, CV2523 Driver Stock Tubes6SN7 Alternative to Driver Stock Tubes6N8S, CV181, ECC32, 5692, 6F8G    *aCould go easily as low as 20 ohm with good performance A.N. *bThe SUM of the 4 valves


----------



## Frederick Rea

Do you think it's of interest to add in a table like this?
  
     GOOD PRACTICE FOR TUBE ROLLING
 1    Clean power - Dedicated Power Line with or without Power Treatment
 2    Envirement RF free - Switch Off Smartphones and devices that create RF's
 3    Know Specifications
 4    ...........


----------



## pctazhp

frederick rea said:


> Do you think it's of interest to add in a table like this?
> 
> GOOD PRACTICE FOR TUBE ROLLING
> 1    Clean power - Dedicated Power Line with or without Power Treatment
> ...


 

 My problem with developing a list like that is it may be difficult to develop a consensus. In three of my houses I had dedicated lines installed as the homes were being built for my 2-channel, speaker-based system. But now I live in an apartment where that would not be possible, and candidly I really question how important that is. RF may cause problems in some situations but my desk is a high-RF area and I think I have had some of the best luck among Elise owners avoiding hum and noise. In addition, I believe with the choice of DAC, tubes and headphones (without any special power cords) I've made I have achieved an extremely high level of performance that doesn't seem negatively impacted by such things as the electrical outlet I'm using or by my cavalier attitude toward RF.
  
 I know others will strongly disagree with what I have written above. It is just my opinion. If a general consensus develops around such a list as you propose I would be happy to add it to the first post of this thread.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Thanks @mordy
> , it's all about listening pleasure after all, right? @HPLobster
> 's dad might prove to be just the right kind of guinea pig in that respect, being at once untainted from the audiophile reproduction chain, yet baptised in the actual experience of being in the center of grand scale live music reproduction!
> 
> Interestingly enough, I can't help but notice how Lukasz keeps steering me to reasonably priced alternatives (e.g. he also proposed me GE 6as7g as powers)... Still, as I said, next spending spree will be on the provision of ears–on experience! Hopefully...




No tube amp manufacturer will steer you to buy a pair of GEC 6as7g for $500 NOS.

Nor would they urge you to buy a pair of Tung Sol 5998 for $300 NOS.

I had a pair of GE 6as7g before. They sound similar to RCA 6as7g.


----------



## mordy

The 6AS7GA tubes are not bad sounding at all, and it does not matter if it says GE,RCA or Sylvania on them. It is possible that they were all made by GE.
  
 It is not clear to me if GE made their own 6AS7G tubes - perhaps re-branded RCA.


----------



## HOWIE13

frederick rea said:


> FOR A REMINDER:
> 
> 
> Max Load Current (TOTAL)for Tubes6.8A «» 7A


 
 Thanks for the specs.
  
 I'm not familiar with the meaning of those double arrows. Does this refer only to the new 2017 version of Elise?


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Sylvania 6SN7WGT/GEC 6AS7G. Better color coordination.


 
  
 Now this is what I call a classy setup. Very nice Pct. You have set the bar high.


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Thanks @mordy, it's all about listening pleasure after all, right? @HPLobster's dad might prove to be just the right kind of guinea pig in that respect, being at once untainted from the audiophile reproduction chain, yet baptised in the actual experience of being in the center of grand scale live music reproduction!
> 
> *Interestingly enough, I can't help but notice how Lukasz keeps steering me to reasonably priced alternatives (e.g. he also proposed me GE 6as7g as powers).*.. Still, as I said, next spending spree will be on the provision of ears–on experience! Hopefully...


 
  
 Hi angpsi...@UntilThen makes a good point re. the _*cost*_ of tubes and preferred recommendations. But there are also other things that F-A take into consideration here...ie. the need to stay "safe" re. our tube rolling, and their own particular sound _preferences_...for both of which they err _*most definitely*_ on the _conservative_ side lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 For years now, a good few of us here have been veering well off this particular track, and have discovered other "sounds" from using unconventional, non-officially-recommended tubes. Many of these do indeed sometimes deliver a very different presentation, and which can often take quite a long time to 'adjust' to before fully appreciating. I - and (most!) others - have made these transitions over a very protracted period...and have therefore managed to go beyond the usual "honeymoon period" of new sounds, which can be very misleading, of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And most of us have found we couldn't go back to the more "conservative" offerings.
  
_*However*_, of course, everyone will have their own preferences...which is just how it should be! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There is no "one size fits all" in _*this*_ hobby LOL!
  
 Plus, as so often stated, *much* will depend on the rest of one's gear...especially the DAC and headphones. The variations in final outcome can sometimes be quite dramatic, to say the least! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


frederick rea said:


> Do you think it's of interest to add in a table like this?
> 
> GOOD PRACTICE FOR TUBE ROLLING
> 1    Clean power - Dedicated Power Line with or without Power Treatment
> ...


 
  
 Hi F R...your second point is especially valid when using triode-strapped pentodes...these are more prone to internal oscillation (distortion!) in environments that have unfortunately high levels of RFI and/or EMI sources of interference - and which are present in many homes to a degree often not fully appreciated, alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Re. point #3...these can sometimes be a bit misleading, of course. As I mentioned above, many of us have for years now been using - successfully! - tubes that vary widely from recommended specs...and that have shown Elise to be much more flexible/accommodating than many other amps!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(much to F-A's surprise lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). This is precisely what has encouraged some of us to be rather more "enterprising" than perhaps F-A can sometimes understand! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. But such practices are certainly not _compulsory_ LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....CHEERS!...


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> No tube amp manufacturer will steer you to buy a pair of GEC 6as7g for $500 NOS.
> 
> Nor would they urge you to buy a pair of Tung Sol 5998 for $300 NOS.
> 
> I had a pair of GE 6as7g before. They sound similar to RCA 6as7g.


 
  


hypnos1 said:


> Hi angpsi...@UntilThen makes a good point re. the _*cost*_ of tubes and preferred recommendations. But there are also other things that F-A take into consideration here...ie. the need to stay "safe" re. our tube rolling, and their own particular sound _preferences_...for both of which they err _*most definitely*_ on the _conservative_ side lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi guys,
 Sure, I can definitely see that! Or, perhaps poor Lukasz just feels guilty that I steered away from my original—more conservative and financially sound—intention to buy the Espressivo and went all in with the Elise! Still away from her alas; tomorrow will be a day of reunion since I've been away for over two weeks from her! I'll let you know how it goes!
  


mordy said:


> The 6AS7GA tubes are not bad sounding at all, and it does not matter if it says GE,RCA or Sylvania on them. It is possible that they were all made by GE.
> 
> It is not clear to me if GE made their own 6AS7G tubes - perhaps re-branded RCA.


 

  
 Good to know @mordy, perhaps I'll look into them eventually. But as I said, hopefully I'll be able to listen for myself before I splurge into a new spending spree!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Good to know @mordy, perhaps I'll look into them eventually. But as I said, hopefully I'll be able to listen for myself before I splurge into a new spending spree!


 
  
 Just be aware Mordy is talking about 2 different tubes.
  
 GE 6AS7GA and GE 6AS7G.


----------



## pctazhp

Finally I have Octopus for my Elise:


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Finally I have Octopus for my Elise:


 
  
 Haha, pct....at least you'd get a smile or two if you took _*this*_ on the road lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...and with that I'll say G'night...zzzzzzz


----------



## UntilThen

Pct what a cute Octopus. Your EL tubes are so symmetrical I want them.


----------



## connieflyer

Sorry UT you'll have to get in line I want those too those are really nice


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 Both the 6AS7GA (looks like the 6080) and the RCA 6AS7G (Coke bottle shape) are among the less expensive tubes. If you get fed up with the EL tubes we could work out a trade.


----------



## pctazhp

Octopus says keep your grubby human hands off my ELs or my scaly tenicles will pull you 20,000 leagues under the sea.


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi I'll fight Mordy for your EL tubes. I'll trade my pair of Tung Sol 7236 and GE 6AS7GA and RCA 6AS7GA for it.

You could even have my Fotons drivers. How's that for a deal?


----------



## angpsi

Hi @mordy and @UntilThen, if I decide to dump I'll probably be looking for money. Whether I'm gonna use it for tube roll or my daughter's tuition remains undecided... But I promise you wonderful people will be the first to know if it comes to this!
  
 For now, I'm just happy to be back to my office—who knew one would muster the words, all because of the Elise! Gonna give my new ELs some time to breathe, so for now this is how I roll:
  

 As always, the sound is immediately mighty impressive but still very much in my head—a demanding listen. There was a slight buzz/sibilance on the left channel, which—by process of elimination—I eventually attributed to one of the new TF EL12st. Given the prior experience in this thread I'm gonna write to wege–high fidelity about it right away.
  
 And here's the full roll call of my EL inventory.


----------



## angpsi

Just for clarification purposes, that's 2x Siemens EL12n, 2x Telefunken EL12 st, 2x Telefunken EL12spez, and 2x RFT EL11, 2x Telefunken EL11, 2x Valvo EL11. Here are some pics of the rest of the tubes (i.e. the ones I'm not using on the Elise right now).


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  I'll pass on the EL tubes. You have just about bought all the EL tubes supplies. Good NOS ones are going to cost for sure. Are you saying that using EL12 Spez (drivers) with TFK EL12 (powers), you are not getting hum from the EL12 Spez? What about if you use EL12 Spez as powers?
  
 I'm surprised you went all out on EL tubes. With that kind of money, you can pick up some really nice conventional power tubes, such as Tung Sol 5998, Bendix 6080wb, GEC 6080 or even GEC 6AS7G. You would not be plagued with hums and what nots. Having said that, my Elise is now constantly being shod with EL12N (drivers) and TFK EL12 (powers) and there's not a murmur or hint of hum and yes I do like the tone more than any of my other tube combinations. 
  
 I'm not spending anymore on tubes. My next expenses will be deck and dac. The backyard deck makeover will cost more than a Yiggy and a Holo Spring Level 3 together.


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  just noticed that you had Meridian Explorer 2. That could be a low cost entry into MQA. How do you like that with Tidal Masters? Any improvement over Tidal HiFi? 
  
 Sounds interesting but a lot of that went over my head. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer2-da-headphone-amplifier#htA5iBB7W1Yib0Ak.97


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> @angpsi  I'll pass on the EL tubes. You have just about bought all the EL tubes supplies. Good NOS ones are going to cost for sure. Are you saying that using EL12 Spez (drivers) with TFK EL12 (powers), you are not getting hum from the EL12 Spez? What about if you use EL12 Spez as powers?
> 
> I'm surprised you went all out on EL tubes. With that kind of money, you can pick up some really nice conventional power tubes, such as Tung Sol 5998, Bendix 6080wb, GEC 6080 or even GEC 6AS7G. You would not be plagued with hums and what nots. Having said that, my Elise is now constantly being shod with EL12N (drivers) and TFK EL12 (powers) and there's not a murmur or hint of hum and yes I do like the tone more than any of my other tube combinations.
> 
> I'm not spending anymore on tubes. My next expenses will be deck and dac. The backyard deck makeover will cost more than a Yiggy and a Holo Spring Level 3 together.


 

 If you count I'm the minority report as to how I like them, then yes; I should have probably gone with more conventional setups in the first place! Eventually I'm counting on getting to hear those fist hand if I ever get the time to meet with my fellow Greek collector...
 As far as to what I'm listening on right now... oh look! It's the Elephant man again! I can see (hear) all of the qualities you guys all mention, but I just can't get myself to enjoy it!
  

  
 I don't know... I was perfectly happy before I spent a fortune on these... ☹️
  
 P.S. one TF EL12 tube is going back, no questions asked. Kudos to wege-high-fidelity, he was a very good service and constantly a prompt reply!


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> @angpsi  just noticed that you had Meridian Explorer 2. That could be a low cost entry into MQA. How do you like that with Tidal Masters? Any improvement over Tidal HiFi?
> 
> Sounds interesting but a lot of that went over my head.
> 
> ...


 

 It's a big resounding YES; obviously a case of a well written algorithm but the difference is very evident. I even found myself enjoying old Madonna records on MQA! Interestingly, I also listened to Bruno Mars and it is very evident how the music was engineered for mp3 rather than analogue reproduction.
  
 It's being offered lately for about $200, which is a big discount on the original price; my guess is that they're subsidising it to get more people into MQA. Given the price, to me it was a no–brainer. I got mine for €149,50 from Analogue Seduction. And I _did_ subscribe to TIDAL when my trial period expired.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> As far as to what I'm listening on right now... oh look! It's the Elephant man again! *I can see (hear) all of the qualities you guys all mention, but I just can't get myself to enjoy it!*


 
  
 Maybe if you could be a bit more specific as to why you didn't enjoy it. I'm keeping an open mind. Perhaps you're hearing things we don't. It's possible. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 As for that layout with foil and stray wires, sorry I'm not for it - no matter how good the sound is.I think for most people, they should just keep away from EL12 Spez ---- unless @hypnos1  comes to their rescue with his adapting.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> It's a big resounding YES; obviously a case of a well written algorithm but the difference is very evident. I even found myself enjoying old Madonna records on MQA! Interestingly, I also listened to Bruno Mars and it is very evident how the music was engineered for mp3 rather than analogue reproduction.
> 
> It's being offered lately for about $200, which is a big discount on the original price; my guess is that they're subsidising it to get more people into MQA. Given the price, to me it was a no–brainer. I got mine for €149,50 from Analogue Seduction. And I _did_ subscribe to TIDAL when my trial period expired.


 
  
 Thanks for the feedback. This has pique my interest. I have Audirvana Plus and Tidal HiFi just like you..... and am keen to sample MQA.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Thanks for the feedback. This has pique my interest. I have Audirvana Plus and Tidal HiFi just like you..... and am keen to sample MQA.


 

 So you know that Audirvana Plus 3 is going to support MQA, right? https://audirvana.com/?page_id=3450


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> So you know that Audirvana Plus 3 is going to support MQA, right? https://audirvana.com/?page_id=3450


 
  
 No I didn't know but now I do.  I'm still on Audirvana Plus 2. Daymmm that means having to pay for a new license again. I even paid for JRiver 22 and love it a lot on my PC setup.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Maybe if you could be a bit more specific as to why you didn't enjoy it. I'm keeping an open mind. Perhaps you're hearing things we don't. It's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Starting from your last remark, I totally agree... and I'm also convinced that this is a devious scheme organized by @hypnos1 to monopolize the full supply of the EL12spez!
  
 To get to your first question, it's fair to say that I have mixed feelings. For what it's worth, the Elephant Man is giving me an amazing rendering of Joni Mitchell's "Mingus" on TIDAL MQA as we speak. 'He' also gave me a very good performance on Lavinia Meijer's "The Glass Effect (the music of Philip Glass & others)", but mostly when the harp notes were clearly articulated; when the music featured lots of mid-low mezzo I found it very emphasized to my taste, and ultimately tiring. Finally, on Stravinsky's "The Firebird" the attacks on the high notes were pronounced to the point I found them shrilling (granted, as they were probably meant to be—here's an ear–hurting 'shrilling' version and here's a more laid back version which I found more enjoyable)! Overall, I think that the ELs perform their best when one's preference is leaning toward an energetic and dynamic sound. 
  
 On the contrary, the Svetlana + Psvane combo consistently give me a more airy rendering, with effortless separation and an abundance of detail. Similarly, the mids are less forced and seem quite precise although I'm tempted to say that the overall signature must ultimately be considered as euphonic. So far I have enjoyed all types of music on that combo, mainly because I can loosen my attention and let my head go. So definitely less energetic, but _all of the detail_ is there and music rendering as a whole sounds to my ears amazingly clear and effortless at the same time. If it helps, that's how I imagine the Stax to sound in their own right, albeit I have no actual experience with them besides what I've been reading ever since I got into the audiophile game.
  
 As you can see, I'm trying to use as many references as I can to supplement for what language is unable to convey. Ears, and the experience of music, as you all most often note, can be a tricky job—even when consensus is almost unanimous, such as the one amassed around the EL11-12 family. Hopefully I have managed to paint you a picture of how I'm experiencing these tubes for myself. To conclude, it's not that I don't find them to have all the great qualities that you mentioned; it's just that I can't seem to bring myself to like them as much.
  
 At least now I have @HPLobster and his dad to thank for not being left alone in my experience of the Svets & Psvane! As I've said numerous times in the past, I'm really anxious to see how you guys find them when your Euforias (Euforiae?) arrive...
  
 P.S. As I was writing these lines, I was listening to a remaster of a live performance of Joni Mitchell's "Both sides now", which is actually quite a messy vintage recording that I think isn't made to sound nice on any combo. But as I finished writing the main part of this note I changed the tubes back to the Svetlana/Psvane, and it honestly feels as if pressure was relieved on my ears, #EDIT even though the combo is just warming up# (the record still sounds bad though). Go figure...


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Starting from your last remark, I totally agree... and I'm also convinced that this is a devious scheme organized by @hypnos1 to monopolize the full supply of the EL12spez!
> 
> To get to your first question, it's fair to say that I have mixed feelings. For what it's worth, the Elephant Man is giving me an amazing rendering of Joni Mitchell's "Mingus" on TIDAL MQA as we speak. 'He' also gave me a very good performance on Lavinia Meijer's "The Glass Effect (the music of Philip Glass & others)", but mostly when the harp notes were clearly articulated; when the music featured lots of mid-low mezzo I found it very emphasized to my taste, and ultimately tiring. Finally, on Stravinsky's "The Firebird" the attacks on the high notes were pronounced to the point I found them shrilling (granted, as they were probably meant to be—here's an ear–hurting 'shrilling' version and here's a more laid back version which I found more enjoyable)! Overall, I think that the ELs perform their best when one's preference is leaning toward an energetic and dynamic sound.
> 
> ...


 

 Link to this posted on first page.


----------



## angpsi

howie13 said:


> Yes I agree it does look very stylish in that picture.
> 
> I've also been lucky with my present superb sounding set-up as it hasn't buzzed for nearly 12 hours, except when the wife walked in to water the flowers.
> 
> ...


 

@HOWIE13, didn't realize you were getting interference with your dual EL12spez setup! According to MrsX, the dual adapter is supposedly befit to the power seat wile the single one is meant to work in the driver position. Given that my single 12spez/adapter work fine in the driver's seat, I didn't expect that! Care to elaborate for me 'cause I probably missed it?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> On the contrary, the Svetlana + Psvane combo consistently give me a more airy rendering, with effortless separation and an abundance of detail. Similarly, the mids are less forced and seem quite precise although I'm tempted to say that the overall signature must ultimately be considered as euphonic. So far I have enjoyed all types of music on that combo, mainly because I can loosen my attention and let my head go. So definitely less energetic, but _all of the detail_ is there and music rendering as a whole sounds to my ears amazingly clear and effortless at the same time. If it helps, that's how I imagine the Stax to sound in their own right, albeit I have no actual experience with them besides what I've been reading ever since I got into the audiophile game.
> 
> As you can see, I'm trying to use as many references as I can to supplement for what language is unable to convey. Ears, and the experience of music, as you all most often note, can be a tricky job—even when consensus is almost unanimous, such as the one amassed around the EL11-12 family. Hopefully I have managed to paint you a picture of how I'm experiencing these tubes for myself. To conclude, it's not that I don't find them to have all the great qualities that you mentioned; it's just that I can't seem to bring myself to like them as much.
> 
> At least now I have @HPLobster and his dad to thank for not being left alone in my experience of the Svets & Psvane! As I've said numerous times in the past, I'm really anxious to see how you guys find them when your Euforias (Euforiae?) arrive...


 
  
 Loving Elise with Psvane 6sn7 and Svetlana 6h13c is testament to the wonderful sonic signature of Elise. You are at almost stock tubes level and if that can give you consistently a more airy rendering with effortless separation and an abundance of detail, then you're a happy man, as those tubes are cheap and readily available.
  
 I do not think there needs to be a unanimous decision on any preferred tube combination. There will be personal preferences and people are different. Some like a more energetic and lively tone whilst others prefers a more laid back soothing tone.
  
 I've heard Stax SR-009, SR-007 with Blue Hawaii. I wouldn't put Elise in that league but we shouldn't compare 2 vastly different price range setups.
  
 The thing is Lobster's dad has only heard Elise with Psvane and Svetlana and that has won him over. Lobster himself is quite overwhelmed when he switched in Valvo 6080 for the Svetlana and find it much better. In his words, he didn't realised that a change of just power tubes can bring about such a big difference.
  
 Lastly, your EL tubes needs burn in and more time with it. However given your preference, I doubt that will make a difference.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Loving Elise with Psvane 6sn7 and Svetlana 6h13c is testament to the wonderful sonic signature of Elise. You are at almost stock tubes level and if that can give you consistently a more airy rendering with effortless separation and an abundance of detail, then you're a happy man, as those tubes are cheap and readily available.
> 
> I do not think there needs to be a unanimous decision on any preferred tube combination. There will be personal preferences and people are different. Some like a more energetic and lively tone whilst others prefers a more laid back soothing tone.
> 
> ...


 

 Hey UT, true enough; perhaps I'll get more NOS Svetlanas and stock up before they become a fad! (just teasing you man)
  
 In regard to Stax, I'm sure the TOTL ones are hardly comparable to my own setup; however reading through reviews it looks like their whole range stays consistent to the benefits (and limitations) of stats. But, as I said, a listening session is definitely needed to have an informed opinion, therefore final judgment lies ahead in the future.
  
 On the same note, you guys have listened to and own[ed] a wide variety of tubes and that's why your opinion will always be highly regarded and valued on my journey. Evidently that's what caused me to get a full range of EL tubes! Can't say I regret it though; at least I got my basis for comparison, plus it looks like the 'Elephant Man' (TF EL12spez / TF EL11) is actually giving me the best iteration of EL sound I've had so far!
  
 Now, on a completely different note, please do me a favor and listen to this record! Found it browsing through Stereophile's "Records to die for": it's Chesky, it's binaural, it's acoustic; what more could you want in order to explore the benefits of owning such a wonderful amp as the Elise?


----------



## richdytch

My EL12 adapters are registering as delivered to a neighbour on the Royal Mail site. But no card through my door to say which neighbour. The name of the person who signed for them is not the name of any of our neighbours either. I think they've tried to deliver them to completely the wrong street. I was in when they say they tried to deliver them. 
  
 I think it's a conspiracy - someone doesn't want me to experience EL12N.


----------



## pctazhp

Life does not consist just of EL11/12. This morning listening to Crosby, Stills & Nash - Tidal Masters - through Sylvania 6SN7WGT/GEC 6AS7G. Life don't get better than this


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Now, on a completely different note, please do me a favor and listen to this record! Found it browsing through Stereophile's "Records to die for": it's Chesky, it's binaural, it's acoustic; what more could you want in order to explore the benefits of owning such a wonderful amp as the Elise?


 
  
 I like Macy Gray. A very unique voice. That song 'I Try' is a favourite but it's a different rendition on the binaural recording.
  
 This is what I have from HD Tracks on Chesky Binaural Sound.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> My EL12 adapters are registering as delivered to a neighbour on the Royal Mail site. But no card through my door to say which neighbour. The name of the person who signed for them is not the name of any of our neighbours either. I think they've tried to deliver them to completely the wrong street. I was in when they say they tried to deliver them.
> 
> *I think it's a conspiracy - someone doesn't want me to experience EL12N. *


 
  
 Many conspiracy theories have abounded lately. Someone is tapping into your EL12N sound.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *Life does not consist just of EL11/12*. This morning listening to Crosby, Stills & Nash - Tidal Masters - through Sylvania 6SN7WGT/GEC 6AS7G. Life don't get better than this


 
  
 That's right. You have to cycle through your collection of tubes. That's the reason you got a tube amp and carefully selected all those tubes.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> I like Macy Gray. A very unique voice. That song 'I Try' is a favourite but it's a different rendition on the binaural recording.
> 
> This is what I have from HD Tracks on Chesky Binaural Sound.


 

 It's on TIDAL too! Just look for artist "Dr Chesky"!  (there's also an "appears on" section for him too!)


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> It's on TIDAL too! Just look for artist "Dr Chesky"!  (there's also an "appears on" section for him too!)


 
  
 I know. I just want to see if there's any difference between HD Tracks and Tidal HiFi.


----------



## angpsi

Interesting find: @Oskari, are these Svetlanas?


----------



## mordy

The double saucer getter is the give-away - Russkies. Just pulled out a 1963 Svetlana and it looks exactly the same.
  
 How much do they want for these forgeries? $15/pair?


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> @HOWIE13, didn't realize you were getting interference with your dual EL12spez setup! According to MrsX, the dual adapter is supposedly befit to the power seat wile the single one is meant to work in the driver position. Given that my single 12spez/adapter work fine in the driver's seat, I didn't expect that! Care to elaborate for me 'cause I probably missed it?


 
 Nah-the dual adapter buzzes just the same as the single one in the power sockets. Easy remedy with foil around the adapter anode wires and some extra foil over one of the anode caps.
  
 Now total silence.
  
 I've been lucky not to require any extra wires attached to the tubes. I think this is probably dependent on position and where the interference is located. Maybe also something to do with mains earthing in house etc.
  
 Like you, in the driver position, the single adapters are not shielded with foil and have never buzzed.


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Interesting find: @Oskari, are these Svetlanas?


 
  
 Hi ang...pure _*Russian*_, as mordy says. And far too many of these "misleading" ones about, with BIG names on and an inflated price to match lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are even "Mullard" ones with "Made in England" on them...now that _*is*_ pure fraudulent behaviour..._*no excuses!!!*_...The dead giveaway is indeed those _*double*_ "flying saucer" bottom getters...(have lost count of the number of times I've given out warnings on this...and they still keep appearing on ebay LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 Re. your own experience of the EL11/12 combo, I can fully understand your viewpoint...the presentation is indeed an extremely _*rich and full-bodied*_ one, and not to everyone's taste. It wasn't mine at first actually, after ECC31/GEC A1834 magic - but it is now lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But given everyone's hearing and preferences are different, you don't surprise me at all. One must stick with what one likes..._*naturally!*_




  
 Y'know...I really am beginning to wonder if Euforia is actually handling these tubes somewhat differently to Elise - it's going to be extremely interesting to hear what folks find, who will have both to compare side-by-side. If anything, Euforia is even _*richer*_ than Elise, but I can't say I recognise *in my setup* any of the more negative (to _your_ ears) aspects you mention...but I'm sure my tube DAC has quite a lot to do with that lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
  
 But I'm really glad you are obviously very impressed with Elise...this is all that counts, after all.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!!...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Hi ang...pure _*Russian*_, as mordy says. And far too many of these "misleading" ones about, with BIG names on and an inflated price to match lol!!  There are even "Mullard" ones with "Made in England" on them...now that _*is*_ pure fraudulent behaviour..._*no excuses!!!*_...The dead giveaway is indeed those _*double*_ "flying saucer" bottom getters...(have lost count of the number of times I've given out warnings on this...and they still keep appearing on ebay LOL!! :angry_face: ...).




They don't even have to be illegal rebrands as such. Those Tfks were labeled for the German military. Caveat emptor.


----------



## HOWIE13

@angpsi @UntilThen 
  
 Just catching up on the fascinating discussion between you both concerning the tubes.
  
 One big difference, for me, I would think could be the different headphones you are using.
  
 The HD600 is very good but doesn't have, to my ears, the bass, or particularly the sub-bass to underpin the detail and clarity that EL11/12/spez tubes provide to not only the bass but also the mid and higher registers. 
  
 It also doesn't have the holographic sound-stage of the T1, which allows all the EL11/12 detail to breathe and come across in an effortless manner to your ears as you are embraced into the sound.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> @angpsi @UntilThen
> 
> Just catching up on the fascinating discussion between you both concerning the tubes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Couldn't have put it better myself, H13...I'm quite sure the points you make are indeed *very* pertinent to the final outcome...(and even more so when you put Euforia into the equation lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Couldn't have put it better myself, H13...I'm quite sure the points you make are indeed *very* pertinent to the final outcome...(and even more so when you put Euforia into the equation lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I've just read your recent post about EL11/12/spez and Euforia.
  
 If Euforia adds even more richness to the sound, that really will be something extra-special.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> I've just read your recent post about EL11/12/spez and Euforia.
> 
> If Euforia adds even more richness to the sound, that really will be something extra-special.


 
  
 "Extra" indeed, H13...that quality mentioned applies to _*all*_ tubes...but without being too syrupy lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just as with Elise, there will be a combination to suit ALL tastes...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...with one proviso...from my own experience with the Melz 6H8C drivers, I really think they would actually be _*too*_ dynamic for my taste...unless, _perhaps_, driving _very_ light/thin sounding powers and/or headphones (which wouldn't now appeal to me anyway lol!!).


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Y'know...I really am beginning to wonder if Euforia is actually handling these tubes somewhat differently to Elise - it's going to be extremely interesting to hear what folks find, who will have both to compare side-by-side. If anything, Euforia is even _*richer*_ than Elise, *but I can't say I recognise in my setup any of the more negative (to your ears) aspects you mention*...but I'm sure my tube DAC has quite a lot to do with that lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll soon find out whether Euforia handles the EL tubes or any other tubes better than Elise. I sure hope so..... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Neither do I recognise in my setup any of the more negative aspects angpsi mentioned about the EL tubes. I certainly don't find them shouty or shrill but I'm a reasonable man. I'll agree to disagree.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> @angpsi @UntilThen
> 
> Just catching up on the fascinating discussion between you both concerning the tubes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Spot on Howie. HD600 was brought to my home and I was able to audition HD600, modified HD650 and T1 on Elise with various tubes.
  
 Without doubt, I much prefer T1, modded HD650 and HD600 in that order.


----------



## HPLobster

pctazhp said:


> Finally I have Octopus for my Elise:


 

  
 If it helps make this sound even better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....... COUNT ME IN!


----------



## HPLobster

>


 
  


angpsi said:


> At least now I have @HPLobster and his dad to thank for not being left alone in my experience of the Svets & Psvane! As I've said numerous times in the past, I'm really anxious to see how you guys find them when your Euforias (Euforiae?) arrive...


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> The thing is Lobster's dad has only heard Elise with Psvane and Svetlana and that has won him over. Lobster himself is quite overwhelmed when he switched in Valvo 6080 for the Svetlana and find it much better. In his words, he didn't realised that a change of just power tubes can bring about such a big difference.


 
  
 angpsi, I am honestly happy for you, finding the perfect tube-setting to accomodate your personal taste in sound signature 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. However, concerning you feeling reassured, regarding my father´s enjoyment of the same tube-setup (PSVane 6SN7 driving Svetlana 6H13C), I´m afraid I have to relativise things a little.
  
 I think what actually occured is that he -although his native attitude towards hifi gear has always been rather sceptical- approved with the ability of the Feliks Audio Elise + Sennheiser HD 800 combination in general to reproduce classical music. I would classify the fact that I used the above mentioned tube-combo rather as a coincidence, since now I´m using Mullard/Valvo 6080s as powers and soon am going to exchange the PSVane-drivers with EL3Ns. I´m not necessarily saying that his reaction would have been even more enthusiastic using one of These other tube-setups, but I´d like to point out that most probably -regarding his consent of orchestral reproduction- the Elise/HD800 as a whole should be credited and not those specific tubes.
  
 Don´t get me wrong, I personally liked your preferred combo very much, just wanted to make this minor point clear


----------



## HPLobster

angpsi said:


> Hi @mordy and @UntilThen, if I decide to dump I'll probably be looking for money. Whether I'm gonna use it for tube roll or my daughter's tuition remains undecided... But I promise you wonderful people will be the first to know if it comes to this!
> 
> For now, I'm just happy to be back to my office—who knew one would muster the words, all because of the Elise! Gonna give my new ELs some time to breathe, so for now this is how I roll:
> 
> ...


 
 Change of subject: Since I also bought my EL12 spez from wege-high fidelity, I´m curious to know about those "prior experiences" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit: Alright, you´re probably just talking about good customer service...


----------



## UntilThen

COUNT ME IN.


----------



## HPLobster

richdytch said:


> My EL12 adapters are registering as delivered to a neighbour on the Royal Mail site. But no card through my door to say which neighbour. The name of the person who signed for them is not the name of any of our neighbours either. I think they've tried to deliver them to completely the wrong street. I was in when they say they tried to deliver them.
> 
> I think it's a conspiracy - someone doesn't want me to experience EL12N.


 
  
 I think angpsi has your tubes....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  
  
  
 just kidding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hope you will find them soon...
  
 Edit: Ah, you are talking about Adapters...I should probably go to bed...


----------



## pctazhp

My Octo***** now very happy she has such nice friends


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Change of subject: Since I also bought my EL12 spez from wege-high fidelity, I´m curious to know about those "prior experiences"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Correct. wege-high-fidelity is a wonderful seller. I bought from him 2 Telefunken EL12.


----------



## UntilThen

Help !!!     My Octopus is walking.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Help !!!     My Octopus is walking.


 

 Gotta catch him before he reaches your headphones! After that, he´s never going back...


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> The double saucer getter is the give-away - Russkies. Just pulled out a 1963 Svetlana and it looks exactly the same.
> 
> How much do they want for these forgeries? $15/pair?


 
 Hold on to your pants... The price is $40, and it doesn't even clarify whether it's for the pair or a single one! Quite possibly the most expensive Svetlanas ever made!


----------



## angpsi

hplobster said:


> Change of subject: Since I also bought my EL12 spez from wege-high fidelity, I´m curious to know about those "prior experiences"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


untilthen said:


> Correct. wege-high-fidelity is a wonderful seller. I bought from him 2 Telefunken EL12.


 

 Exactly! The man is wonderful and he's got a good inventory of tubes including EL11 & EL12. I've had long discussions with him before I bought my EL12st as I was inquiring about the straight bottle EL12; he was prompt to reply, and very helpful in his responses. And now that there's a minor hiss with the one EL12st he's taking it back no questions asked. I'm even tempted to get a different EL12st instead of a refund, just to keep with my promise to give the EL12 lot another try in good faith.
  
 I have to admit, I'm now listening to another one of Stereophile's 'to die for' records—Keith Jarrett & Charlie Haden, "Last Dance"—on 24/96 flac and I can certainly appreciate the way the all–Telefunken EL12spez/EL11 combo's take on lush and full bodied sound. I also most certainly agree that the headphones do play a role in this. Hopefully I'll be able to audition more cans with my setup—for now, all my impressions are limited by my one–sided experience on the HD600.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Exactly! The man is wonderful and he's got a good inventory of tubes including EL11 & EL12. I've had long discussions with him before I bought my EL12st as I was inquiring about the straight bottle EL12; he was prompt to reply, and very helpful in his responses. And now that there's a minor hiss with the one EL12st he's taking it back no questions asked. I'm even tempted to get a different EL12st instead of a refund, just to keep with my promise to give the EL12 lot another try in good faith.
> 
> I have to admit, I'm now listening to another one of Stereophile's 'to die for' records—Keith Jarrett & Charlie Haden, "Last Dance"—on 24/96 flac and I can certainly appreciate the way the all–Telefunken EL12spez/EL11 combo's take on lush and full bodied sound. I also most certainly agree that the headphones do play a role in this. Hopefully I'll be able to audition more cans with my setup—for now, all my impressions are limited by my one–sided experience on the HD600.


 
 Yes, try not to dispose of your EL tubes until you have tried them with other headphones. 
  
 I would like to audition the HD800 and 800S, plus of course purchase Euforia, but there's other financial priorities in this household, unfortunately.
  
 Do hold onto those tubes though, they could be very expensive to re-purchase a year or two down the line.


----------



## angpsi

hplobster said:


> angpsi, I am honestly happy for you, finding the perfect tube-setting to accomodate your personal taste in sound signature
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hence my remark that your father should prove to be a perfect guinea pig for tube rolling! It will be interesting to test your tube rolling with his reactions now that he's baptised to headphone listening. Of course, in the end it's all about personal enjoyment, and your taste might prove to be different to your father's; and it can also be an acquired taste, as @hypnos1 mentioned in regard to his transition from ECC31/GEC A1834 to EL11/EL12spez.
  
 Overall I consider this audiophile field an education, but it can equally turn into a distraction to the actual enjoyment of music. As always, striking a balance is IMO all that one can inspire to pursue, albeit quite possibly in perpetuity!


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Re. your own experience of the EL11/12 combo, I can fully understand your viewpoint...the presentation is indeed an extremely _*rich and full-bodied*_ one, and not to everyone's taste. It wasn't mine at first actually, after ECC31/GEC A1834 magic - but it is now lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well, as you can see I'm still giving the rich and full–bodied sound a good chance. I don't think I'll be disposing my EL tubes unless I listen first hand to something that touches me more in respect to my taste. And of course the rest of the chain also has something to do with it as well!
  
 Moving on to the Euforia, yesterday I was out at a (very accomplished) cocktail bar and I just _have_ to offer you a glimpse of the catalogue:
  

  
 But, as always, reality also kicks in! (as it's "Just Another Daiquiri"—or, _is it_?)

  
 Food for thought!


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Neither do I recognise in my setup any of the more negative aspects angpsi mentioned about the EL tubes. I certainly don't find them shouty or shrill but I'm a reasonable man. I'll agree to disagree.


 
 Perhaps there was a transcendent and magical connection (fusion?) of the Svetlanas / Psvane with the Elise when I left them on for 50+ consecutive hours while 'burning them in', and now she's rejecting all other combos!!!


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Well, as you can see I'm still giving the rich and full–bodied sound a good chance. I don't think I'll be disposing my EL tubes unless I listen first hand to something that touches me more in respect to my taste. And of course the rest of the chain also has something to do with it as well!
> 
> Moving on to the Euforia, yesterday I was out at a (very accomplished) cocktail bar and I just _have_ to offer you a glimpse of the catalogue:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Aaahhh..._*but*_, ang - in our case the _*ingredients*_ are a good bit different...just ask Pop Henryk lol!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(and _*you*_ guys have a good few more goodies than I!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...).
  


angpsi said:


> Perhaps there was a transcendent and magical connection (fusion?) of the Svetlanas / Psvane with the Elise when I left them on for 50+ consecutive hours while 'burning them in', and now *she's rejecting all other combos!!! *


 
  
 You could well have a point there, ang....the amp's biasing will probably take a while to "settle down", given the EL tubes strictly need quite different config'n settings lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(one's ears also take a good while to settle into them!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but certainly good advice to hang on until a bit further down the road...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and who knows LOL?!!).


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Well, as you can see I'm still giving the rich and full–bodied sound a good chance. I don't think I'll be disposing my EL tubes unless I listen first hand to something that touches me more in respect to my taste.


 
  
 EL11 and EL12 has full body and tone... with a good wallop of clarity and details. This is the right recipe for HD800 and T1. Even with modded HD650 it sounds magical.
  
 This is what owners of DNA Stratus are singing about and I believe we are headed in that direction with the EL tubes.
  
 I tried going back to Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Chatham 6520. The sound is just a bit too soft now.  Back to EL11 and EL12, it's alive again.   YMMV as usual.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> EL11 and EL12 has full body and tone... with a good wallop of clarity and details. This is the right recipe for HD800 and T1. Even with modded HD650 it sounds magical.
> 
> This is what owners of DNA Stratus are singing about and I believe we are headed in that direction with the EL tubes.
> 
> I tried going back to Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Chatham 6520. The sound is just a bit too soft now.  Back to EL11 and EL12, it's alive again.   YMMV as usual.


 

 I see what you mean. Yesterday "Dr Chesky's" demo sounded really great on the TF EL12spez/EL11 and today I've only listening to jazz and it sounds luscious, with great detail, soundstage, and bloom. Ahh, we'll see how it goes... For now let me just say I settled for a substitute EL12st instead of a refund! 
  
 #EDIT oh, and the Svets / Psvane did sound a bit wimpy by comparison, when I returned to them!


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> I see what you mean. Yesterday "Dr Chesky's" demo sounded really great on the TF EL12spez/EL11 and today I've only listening to jazz and it sounds luscious, with great detail, soundstage, and bloom. Ahh, we'll see how it goes... For now let me just say I settled for a substitute EL12st instead of a refund!
> 
> #EDIT oh, and the Svets / Psvane did sound a bit wimpy by comparison, when I returned to th


 
 As H1 said Elise bias needs to settle in and so too does the electrical bias in our brains, which are full of electricity and so must have a bias point too.


----------



## pctazhp

Listening to this now on Tidal HD Masters. Schitt Bimby/Elise/HD800S - MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Listening to this now on Tidal HD Masters. Schitt Bimby/Elise/HD800S - MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN


 
  
 Did you actually see Tidal HD Masters when you're listening to that track even though your dac doesn't support MQA? 
  
 I only see Tidal HiFi on mine.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Did you actually see Tidal HD Masters when you're listening to that track even though your dac doesn't support MQA?
> 
> I only see Tidal HiFi on mine.


 

 In order to see Masters on Tidal I go to What's New and one of the choices for albums is Masters. And they play fine for me.
  
 During the first 10 years of digital I thought CDs were poor. Since then either the world has changed, I have changed or my pet Octopus has magical powers. Redbook CD quality is more than adequate for my listening enjoyment, and I personally believe the quality of the original recording is the most important thing. So I don't pay much attention to sampling rate and that kind of thing. As I understand it MQA should play fine on any DAC and offers something like double the sampling rate of Redbook, but (all other things being equal) should offer even better quality with an MQA enabled DAC. That's about all I know.
  
 To me the Masters sound better than the normal albums on Tidal, but that may just be placebo. So far I understand that Schiit hasn't embraced MQA, but at some point I'd love to try an MQA enabled DAC.
  
 Edit:  I guess I should add that I use the Tidal App and don't access it with my normal browser Firefox.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> As H1 said Elise bias needs to settle in and so too does the electrical bias in our brains, which are full of electricity and so must have a bias point too.


 
  
 You are not wrong. At the hospital, the doctor told me that electrical impulses cause the muscles in our heart to contract. With each contraction, blood is pumped throughout the body.
  
 So with your tube amp in close proximity to you and headphone strap on your head, I'm sure your heart will beat faster with the rhythm and beats of your music. Forget about toe tapping now. Visualise your heart pumping now when you're particularly moved by a musical experience.
  
 Hope all this makes sense.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> In order to see Masters on Tidal I go to What's New and one of the choices for albums is Masters. And they play fine for me.


 
  
 Thanks !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I'm now listening to Coldplay 'A head full of dreams' and it DOES sound a lot more dynamic. Incredible. I like MQA already.
  
 Ah Michael Buble sounds so much better now. Masters does sound so much better even without an MQA enabled dac.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> #EDIT oh, and the Svets / Psvane did sound a bit wimpy by comparison, when I returned to them!


 
  
 Easy Ang. By the time you become familiar with all the tubes and your ears grow to like them, you'll forget your once top of the chart stock tubes Psvane and Svetlana.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You are not wrong. At the hospital, the doctor told me that electrical impulses cause the muscles in our heart to contract. With each contraction, blood is pumped throughout the body.
> 
> So with your tube amp in close proximity to you and headphone strap on your head, I'm sure your heart will beat faster with the rhythm and beats of your music. Forget about toe tapping now. Visualise your heart pumping now when you're particularly moved by a musical experience.
> 
> ...


 
 Nothing makes sense to me, and hasn't for the past 70 years or so.
  
 But never forget:


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> You are not wrong. At the hospital, the doctor told me that electrical impulses cause the muscles in our heart to contract. With each contraction, blood is pumped throughout the body.
> 
> So with your tube amp in close proximity to you and headphone strap on your head, I'm sure your heart will beat faster with the rhythm and beats of your music. Forget about toe tapping now. Visualise your heart pumping now when you're particularly moved by a musical experience.
> 
> Hope all this makes sense.


 
 Awesome-that explains why quiet soothing music sends me to sleep and exciting music keeps me awake all night.
 Sorry to learn you are having tests.
 Hope you are feeling better soon.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Awesome-that explains why quiet soothing music sends me to sleep and exciting music keeps me awake all night.
> Sorry to learn you are having tests.
> Hope you are feeling better soon.


 
  
 Thanks Howie. I don't know why I needed all the tests that took one whole night at emergency. 
  
 You see, a person normal heart beat at rest is 60 to 100. Mine was going at 117 so the doc send me to hospital. It's all settle now. I really think it's all due to news of Euforia shipping.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Thanks Howie. I don't know why I needed all the tests that took one whole night at emergency.
> 
> You see, a person normal heart beat at rest is 60 to 100. Mine was going at 117 so the doc send me to hospital. It's all settle now. I really think it's all due to news of Euforia shipping.


 

 You are indispensable to all of us. So I have enlisted a special angel to watch over you:


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Thanks Howie. I don't know why I needed all the tests that took one whole night at emergency.
> 
> You see, a person normal heart beat at rest is 60 to 100. Mine was going at 117 so the doc send me to hospital. It's all settle now. I really think it's all due to news of Euforia shipping.


 
 Definitely due to anticipation of Euforia-and maybe the Herculean labour of love you have ahead of you evaluating all the amps for us.
  
 Perhaps de-caffeinated tea and coffee for the next few weeks would be best.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> You are indispensable to all of us. So I have enlisted a special angel to watch over you:


 
  
 I'm not indispensable but how sweet of you. 
  
 I was listening to this song by Michael Buble on Tidal Masters and it was lovely. So here it is to share with everyone.


----------



## UntilThen

I ask Lukasz to confirm shipping to my correct address and he replied 'Yes Sir' 
  
 and further add...'Brace yourself for some patience before she arrives'.
  
 Hello Lukasz? Patience is not what we have. We want it yesterday.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 You made mention of h1 changing his taste in tubes. IMHO it is not an acquired taste when you finally settle on a new tube combination as your new favorite. Rather it is a process in one's brain that many times is quite lengthy until you settle down on what you really prefer.
  
 Often the differences between top rated tubes are very subtle and it takes time to fully comprehend the differences. But subtle does not mean insignificant - once you understand the difference in your mind it becomes very clear and very significant, and at that stage you can pick out the difference instantly.
  
 This may explain why some of us (myself included) may be OTT about some tubes, only to change the mind after some time. A seasoned reviewer knows that it takes time to come to a conclusion, especially with top rated tubes with the above mentioned subtle differences.
  
 Then you mention about listening being a distraction.... It is really the question if you are listening to the music or to your equipment. The most serious form of listening distraction is called Audiophilia Nervosa. This condition is characterized by the person constantly changing his equipment, never being really happy, and constantly buying new stuff.
  
 Seriously, my own experience has been to listen critically and trying many combinations until I have found something that is so great that I don't feel the need to listen critically any more - I can just enjoy the music.
  
 Reaching this state of perfection I just don't feel the need to roll any more tubes and can just sit back and listen to the music and really enjoy it.
  
_Then Perfection becomes the New Normal, and it gets a little boring...._
  
 Until the next wunder tube appears on this blog.....
  
Did I mention the EL6?
  
*IT NEVER ENDS....*


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I ask Lukasz to confirm shipping to my correct address and he replied '*Yes Sir' *
> 
> and further add...'Brace yourself for some patience before she arrives'.
> 
> Hello Lukasz? Patience is not what we have. We want it yesterday.


 
 So word of your kighthood has spread rapidly.
  
 Remember, knights are loyal, brave, kind to animals and PATIENT


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy that's an inspirational writeup. Well done. 
  
 You know, don't ever buy your first tube amp because that is the start of all this madness. In time to come, you'll have many tube amps and many tubes.....and many headphones.... but life would be less exciting without them.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi @mordy...you are indeed correct when you mention "quite lengthy brain process" involved in our long-term assessments and final conclusions...cognitive learning and "adaptive brain neuroplasticity" are only part of the process - we then have the _emotional_ influence on the brain's learning function...just to complicate matters even further lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. So no wonder it takes such a darned long time....assuming impatience doesn't rear its ugly head!! (Didn't you mention something about _patience_, UT?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 And after this sometimes interminable wait comes _habituation_...we settle into our eventual preferred choices, which then - as you say - can perhaps become _boring_ lol! This, of course, is the trap many of us have faced _*many*_ times in this hobby of ours and which, it would appear, few can manage to escape fully!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But as UT says...all part of life's _excitement!!_




  
 As far as I'm concerned however, I have no further impulse to go headlong back down that hole..._*hopefully*_, I have now cracked my addiction..._*for good!!*_...(or at least for a few months lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). And I'm afraid your tempting with the EL6 I shall resist...especially as it's basically a _*double power*_ EL3N...will stick with the EL12 Spezials! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...CHEERS!...
  
 Quote:
  


untilthen said:


> Mordy that's an inspirational writeup. Well done.
> 
> You know, don't ever buy your first tube amp because that is the start of all this madness. In time to come, you'll have many tube amps and many tubes.....and many headphones.... but life would be less exciting without them.


 
  
 Hi UT..._perhaps_ my own madness might eventually switch to MQA in some form...or even (wait for it...) _ultra_ exotic headphones?!...but don't hold your breath lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And great news on the health front...was definitely down to the "expectant father" syndrome!!...GOOD LUCK!!!...(but remember, she's a _*she!!*_





).


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> Tell me about it. Set of EL12Ns ordered.




The RSD tubes arrived two days ago. The adapters have been spotted meaning that they didn't take the slow boat. We'll see how they'll manage the last mile or ten.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Did you actually see Tidal HD Masters when you're listening to that track even though your dac doesn't support MQA?
> 
> I only see Tidal HiFi on mine.


 
  
  


pctazhp said:


> As I understand it MQA should play fine on any DAC and offers something like double the sampling rate of Redbook, but (all other things being equal) should offer even better quality with an MQA enabled DAC. That's about all I know.
> 
> 
> Edit:  I guess I should add that I use the Tidal App and don't access it with my normal browser Firefox.


 
  
 Tidal is one of only a few existing Software-MQA-Decoders (next to Audirvana Plus 3). In order to listen to Tidal Masters=MQA-coded files, you don´t necessarily need a special MQA-DAC, you only need a normal USB-DAC that´s able to master a minimum of 24 Bit/96 kHz. And it´s not available on mobile device or in the browser version, you need to use the desktop-app.
  
 The catch is, that the software-decoding is limited to 96 kHz overall. If you want 192 or even 384 kHz, you´ll need to buy a MQA-DAC.
 However, the majority of Tidal´s Master-recordings don´t have a resolution higher than 96 kHz anyway (and a minimum of 88,2 kHz btw --> that´s whats all about, MQ*A *as in authenticated, means nothing is upsampled). 
  
 I´ve just read that Universal Music recently signed a deal to support MQA, also on Tidal ---> great news 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 The only one missing is Sony Music now....


----------



## HPLobster

@angpsi Thanks for pointing Macy Gray´s "Stripped" out to me, really enjoying it right now.
 Also Dr. Chesky´s "You´re surrounded" caused quite a few "wow"-moments during listening....


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Did you actually see Tidal HD Masters when you're listening to that track even though your dac doesn't support MQA?
> 
> I only see Tidal HiFi on mine.


 
  
 Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but if you go into the settings for your DAC in the Tidal settings area, and ensure that the 'MQA passthrough' option is not ticked, the Tidal desktop app will decompress the stream on the fly to 24-bit, 96kHz. 
  
 As an aside, I repeatedly find that the step up from 16-bit to 24 achieves far more in quality improvement than an increase in sampling frequency. I can hardly ever hear any improvement from high sampling frequencies. I have a lovely example in the form of Autechre's Exai album, which is available as 44.1kHz 16-bit, and 44.1kHz 24-bit. The difference between the two is immense. Greater depth, transparency, imaging. etc. Not everyone's cup of tea though, musically, but I love it.
  
 I suppose all this is down to the inherent level of quantisation distortion being lower when you have more bits, which does actually make more sense than trying to do it with sampling frequency.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but if you go into the settings for your DAC in the Tidal settings area, and *ensure that the 'MQA passthrough' option is not ticked*, the Tidal desktop app will decompress the stream on the fly to 24-bit, 96kHz.


 
  
 Ah ha Rich, thanks. Just checked but it's not ticked. No wonder I do hear a difference. Now maybe that 'toy' Meridian Explorer 2 looks like a tempting preposition. 
  
 Listening to Tina Turner's 'Tiny Dancer' on Masters, it's suddenly a BIG dancer.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  
 Correction:- Private Dancer


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Ah ha Rich, thanks. Just checked but it's not ticked. No wonder I do hear a difference. Now maybe that 'toy' Meridian Explorer 2 looks like a tempting preposition.




Looks like an interesting little DAC. There'll be no MQA firmware update for the 2qute, but I'm really not worried if I can get 24/96.

Edit - and besides, my vinyl setup is beating my digital set up hands down at the moment so I'm playing more and more vinyl.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT..._perhaps_ my own madness might eventually switch to MQA in some form...or even (wait for it...) _ultra_ exotic headphones?!...but don't hold your breath lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello H1, easy step up to MQA. Just sign up for Tidal HiFi subscription and enjoy MQA to a certain degree immediately, even with your current setup. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 After the Sydney meet on the 26th March, I'll tell you how Focal Utopia sounds on Euforia. I'm planning on running EL tubes for the meet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks. I think I am 'safe' now. Just need to shake off the viral infections.


----------



## mordy

hI H1,
  
 Tempting with the EL6 ...especially as it's basically an EL12 with a plattfuss base .....
  
 Let's throw in some logic here lol: Just like an EL12 Spezial sounds different than an EL12, it seems logical that an EL6 should sound different than a double power EL3N - no?
  
 The EL6 is the very well behaved kid on the EL12 block. None of the idiosyncrasies of the various EL12 tubes. The problem is that they are rarer than hen's teeth, and if you find one they go for megabucks.




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Tubes-PHILIPS-Miniwatt-EL6-1-NIB-NOS-/360770172575?hash=item53ff93f69f:g:kroAAOxyBXNSZCNk
  
 Only $226.00 + $10 shipping.
  
 I was lucky to find a couple of used ones at very modest prices. Somehow I am convinced that somebody is sitting on a several cases of NOS EL6 tubes somewhere to sell for around Eur20..-, but I haven't found that seller yet lol.
  
 Meanwhile I am sitting unscathed in my glass house because there is nobody (yet) than can argue with me about the great sweet sound of the EL6 tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Looks like an interesting little DAC. There'll be no MQA firmware update for the 2qute, but I'm really not worried if I can get 24/96.
> 
> Edit - and besides, my vinyl setup is beating my digital set up hands down at the moment so I'm playing more and more vinyl.


 
  
 True. I even love my humble TT setup in it's original form with no stylus and phono upgrade. There's something about spinning vinyl. I bought several brand new LPs which I really love. So new and shiny.


----------



## HPLobster

Don´t want to go too much off-topic here, but I found this album to be very good indeed to hear the differences between MQA and non-MQA. Very distinct.
  
 https://listen.tidal.com/album/2400318
  
 Airy, more dynamic, fine resolving....


----------



## pctazhp

richdytch said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but if you go into the settings for your DAC in the Tidal settings area, and ensure that the 'MQA passthrough' option is not ticked, the Tidal desktop app will decompress the stream on the fly to 24-bit, 96kHz.


 
 I looked in the settings area of Tidal, but didn't see any settings for my DAC nor did I see the "MQA passthrough" option.


----------



## richdytch

pctazhp said:


> I looked in the settings area of Tidal, but didn't see any settings for my DAC nor did I see the "MQA passthrough" option.


 
  
 If you click on the Streaming tab, your dac name should appear in there - if you then hover to the right of your dac name, a cog icon should appear. Clicking on that takes you through to MQA and other settings. It's only on the desktop version though. 
  
  Rich


----------



## UntilThen

MQA or Turntable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Thanks @connieflyer  !!!
  
 Life couldn't be better with phase4stereo Stokowski Wagner:-
  
 Leopold Stokowski
 London Symphony Orchestra
  
 Ride of the Valkyries
 Forest Murmurs
 Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla
 Siegfried's Rhine Journey


----------



## UntilThen

Ok folks you got to read this from Lens Wallis, a respectable audio dealer in Sydney.
  
 http://www.lenwallisaudio.com/blog/new-systems/tidal-hits-a-high-mark-with-mqa/
  
_The genius of the Tidal offering is that their MAC and PC software has MQA decoding built in – allowing you to send the file at either 88.2/24 or 96/24 to any DAC supporting these resolutions. On the other hand if you do have an MQA enabled DAC the *maximum resolution available is 384/32!*_

_However if you are limited to 96/24 the results are still incredibly impressive._


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Ok folks you got to read this from Lens Wallis, a respectable audio dealer in Sydney.
> 
> http://www.lenwallisaudio.com/blog/new-systems/tidal-hits-a-high-mark-with-mqa/
> 
> ...


 





 I´m confused. This is basically what I wrote a few posts ago...


----------



## pctazhp

richdytch said:


> If you click on the Streaming tab, your dac name should appear in there - if you then hover to the right of your dac name, a cog icon should appear. Clicking on that takes you through to MQA and other settings. It's only on the desktop version though.
> 
> Rich


 

 Thanks Rich. I have the desktop version. I followed your instructions and found the settings. Passthrough MQA wasn't checked. I was pretty sure I was getting the partial advantage of MQA. Very much appreciate your assistance


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> I´m confused. This is basically what I wrote a few posts ago...


 
  
 Indeed you did but I need to read from an authenticated source.


----------



## pctazhp

Also there's a tradition around here. Usually, everything important on a particular subject gets said in a single post. But everyone else must be given the opportunity to say the same thing over and over again. So best that we just humor UT on this one.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Thanks Rich. I have the desktop version. I followed your instructions and found the settings. Passthrough MQA wasn't checked. I was pretty sure I was getting the partial advantage of MQA. Very much appreciate your assistance


 
  
 Go easy on the 200 albums on MQA. Don't finish it in one day.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Go easy on the 200 albums on MQA. Don't finish it in one day.


 

 Excluding Rap albums brings the number down considerably


----------



## aqsw

Got the server, streamer today. Its huge.Didn't think it would be that big, but I've been told bigger is better.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Indeed you did but I need to read from an authenticated source. :bigsmile_face:





Alright, alright, I see, I see...


----------



## UntilThen

'In the air tonight' by Phil Collins on Tidal Masters just exploded in my brains. This is incredible. Pct you got to listen to this one.


----------



## aqsw

My T1s screw up my whole system. They are silver, but I think I may keep them anyways.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Got the server, streamer today. Its huge.Didn't think it would be that big, but I've been told bigger is better.


 
  
 Aq that is big !!!  but has it got MQA? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 How does your streamer sound?
  
 Now you need something really small.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> 'In the air tonight' by Phil Collins on Tidal Masters just exploded in my brains. This is incredible. Pct you got to listen to this one.




I love that song. Will have to try it out tonight when my server unthaws. -25 here and it was sitting out for abut 4 hours.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Aq that is big !!!  but has it got MQA? :bigsmile_face:  How does your streamer sound?
> 
> Now you need something really small.




I already have something really small,


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I already have something really small,


 
  
 Where? Show please. We need pictures.


----------



## pctazhp

Geeze. I go over to Facebook for a few minutes, and already things are exploding inside heads, musical offerings appear and a waiter showed up at someone's home. Oh, I guess that last one was a "server".


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Where? Show please. We need pictures.




Not a chance UT. I am so jealous you are getting your Euforia. I need all the details please. H1 has done a great job, but we need more reviews to get the Feliks rocket launched.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Not a chance UT. I am so jealous you are getting your Euforia. I need all the details please. H1 has done a great job, but we need more reviews to get the Feliks rocket launched.


 
  
 I'm approaching Euforia as a skeptic. If it doesn't move me, you'll get all the details in a 25 pages summary. If it moves me, you will hear my voice in Winnipeg and it will thaw your -25 degrees snow.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> 'In the air tonight' by Phil Collins on Tidal Masters just exploded in my brains. This is incredible. Pct you got to listen to this one.


 

 Agree. Head explosion is a good description. And I didn't need to wait for anything here in Scottsdale to thaw out this afternoon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit:  Current temperature: 28C


----------



## UntilThen

Another favourite 'Space Oddity'  by David Bowie on Tidal Master. Can really hear the difference.


----------



## UntilThen

So who bought this pair of Tung Sol 6520. It's definitely a Tung Sol 5998 - see the dimples? At US$107 for the pair it's a bargain.


----------



## HPLobster

Just also listened to "In The Air Tonight" on Tidal Master.................................................................................................................


----------



## UntilThen

This is brilliant. My NAD d1050 has both RCA and Balanced 3 pin xlr out. 
  
 So I bought a pair of female xlr 3 pin to male RCA connectors and hook up the DAC to Elise, whilst the other RCA out goes to La Figaro 339. 
  
 I can now listen to both amps by just plugging the headphone connector to either amps. Instant comparison.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> This is brilliant. My NAD d1050 has both RCA and Balanced 3 pin xlr out.
> 
> So I bought a pair of female xlr 3 pin to male RCA connectors and hook up the DAC to Elise, whilst the other RCA out goes to La Figaro 339.
> 
> I can now listen to both amps by just plugging the headphone connector to either amps. Instant comparison.


 

 You either need fewer amps or more psychiatrists.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> You either need fewer amps or more psychiatrists.


 
  
 This is how I will compare Euforia and Elise. I don't need a psychiatrist because with a name like Lobster, who needs a psychiatrist.


----------



## UntilThen

I am listening to The Band 'The Last Waltz' on Tidal Masters. It says to play it loud so I let it rip. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I'll play this version with Eric Clapton in it for you. Watch Robbie rips the solo at 2:30


----------



## aqsw

Warming up to the T1s.


----------



## mordy

Hi aqsw,
  
_"My T1s screw up my whole system. They are silver, but I think I may keep them anyways."_
  
 There are several options:
  
 1) just close your eyes when you are listening.
  
 2) Turn around your listening chair so that you don't see your system while listening to the headphones.
  
 3) You may want to do both when listening to the EL12 Spezial Octopus Edition.
  
 I think I remember the motto of your avatar Alfred E, Neuman: *What, me worry?*


----------



## UntilThen

How about warming up everything together. One source, 2 amps, 2 headphones. 
  
 One song - pick any headphone. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 George Benson Breezin' on Tidal Masters. Nice.


----------



## UntilThen

Can't believe I've just started listening to MQA format songs today even if what I hear is but a sniff of full blown MQA. I feel like a cave man who have just discovered muffin. 
  
 Led Zeppelin Vol 1.
 Tutu - Miles Davies
  
 These are like jewels of the Nile on MQA.


----------



## richdytch

I might need to get one of these Meridian thingies just so I can do a blind MQA test. I have to admit, I'm a sceptic. A stupidly high sampling frequency sceptic though, not a bit depth sceptic. In fact there's some thinking that sampling frequencies over 88kHz actually increase distorion. I'll have to try and find it.


----------



## UntilThen

It's cheap here.
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Meridian-Explorer-2-USB-DAC-Headphone-Amp-Brand-New-RRP-199-/232219533674?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
  
 You try it and let me know if it's worth it.


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Don´t want to go too much off-topic here, but I found this album to be very good indeed to hear the differences between MQA and non-MQA. Very distinct.
> 
> https://listen.tidal.com/album/2400318
> 
> Airy, more dynamic, fine resolving....


 
  
 Listening to this and enjoying it immensely.


----------



## UntilThen

Another that I love on Tidal Master 
  
 So much difference between Tidal Master and the Youtube version.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> The RSD tubes arrived two days ago. The adapters have been spotted meaning that they didn't take the slow boat. We'll see how they'll manage the last mile or ten.


 
  
  


mordy said:


> hI H1,
> 
> Tempting with the EL6 ...especially as it's basically an EL12 with a plattfuss base .....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Aaahh Mordy...different logic lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...mine goes something like :
  
 By all accounts there are just two main design families  - 1. Original Dutch Philips (EL3).  2. Original German Telefunken (EL11).
  
 Then, both manufacturers made versions for those who required double the power output : Philips EL6, as big brother to the EL3; TFK EL12, as big bro' to the EL11.
  
 The two designs do differ - mostly in the plate shape : Philips usually _*oval*_, TFK usually _*round*_. This does bring differences in final sound..."House sound", as some would say.
  
 And so, therefore, I think it's fairly safe to say that the EL6 is indeed more _likely_ to share EL3(N) family characteristics, as opposed to the TFK ones...and thus will have different appeal according to individual taste...and would go some way to perhaps explaining your "sweet sound" description, which does tie in with the EL3N sound we've come to know LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So, M, all things considered, I'm still not falling into temptation (thankfully!!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...._especially_ at those usual sorts of prices!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 ps. Good news on your own Euforia notification...things are really beginning to heat up now lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I wish her safe journey...once she ships!...CHEERS!
  
 pps. As you're the only one with the EL6 at the moment, we can't really be sure yet just how much more "trouble free" they might be lol!


----------



## tjw321

Noooooo - my favourite thread on head-fi is going down the MQA rabbit-hole!
  
 I've tried the Meridian Explorer 2 from a source where it was very easy to toggle MQA on and off, and with a proper MQA source file I could hear no difference between playing the FLAC file direct, and playing it "unfolded" 4 times as an MQA file. And playing the MQA file directly as a FLAC file actually increases the noise floor since the additional MQA data is inserted as noise into the FLAC.
  
 The biggest difference (IMHO) is that the MQA files come from better masters, on the whole. That is the biggest plus of MQA - that it is persuading the record companies to make better quality masters available.
  
 Also, don't forget that MQA is actually a lossy format. The unfolding is not lossless.


----------



## Frederick Rea

aqsw said:


> I already have something really small,


 
Hello dear friend My problem here is to listen to the difference between 24 bits 96 Khz and 24 bits and up, up samplings. I couldn't hear anything. Yes between 16 bits and 24 or 32 are the differences for my ears. And another question is the mastering process of the disc or file, not if it has some work on algorithms like HDCD or MQA. If we choose some of the best audiophile records (like ECM, or ACT Music, HD Tracks, Chesky Binaural, and not so on), we have the best to ELISE or else. Transparency, realism with profound impact controlled bass and a crisp not hurting treble. HDCD needs hardware with HDCD chip to decode, MQA don't need anything till 24/96 (if received from Tidal HIFI masters desktop App or others) but need hardware for upper bits/samples. Do you think this narrow up's value the money for an upgraded hardware? I will put the question on mastering treatments (HDCD, MQA) alghoritms, could we do it with personal equalization, in a very well mastering peace?
Regarding MQA, what garantees me that the master is better than these days mastering feactures, that MQA says that they go for the origins to exclude unwanted individual treatment made from abuse "masterers". Aren't we all?
HDCD is still alive even if it isn't announced. Example: some Lucinda Williams new records and so on 
It's a never end question I think
So good music is what we want by means of a special Amp ELISE


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> This is how I will compare Euforia and Elise. I don't need a psychiatrist because with a name like Lobster, who needs a psychiatrist.


 

 With sincere apologies to our esteemed doctor friend, this give me big laugh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Am now thinking of pulling the trigger on this:https://smile.amazon.com/Fun-Express-25-120-Plastic/dp/B0016KYXYW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1489061995&sr=8-2&keywords=lobster+toy. If I order it I'll do an in depth comparison with Ms. Octo*****.


----------



## Frederick Rea

https://youtu.be/cQf2dKiA80M


----------



## pctazhp

tjw321 said:


> Noooooo - my favourite thread on head-fi is going down the MQA rabbit-hole!
> 
> I've tried the Meridian Explorer 2 from a source where it was very easy to toggle MQA on and off, and with a proper MQA source file I could hear no difference between playing the FLAC file direct, and playing it "unfolded" 4 times as an MQA file. And playing the MQA file directly as a FLAC file actually increases the noise floor since the additional MQA data is inserted as noise into the FLAC.
> 
> ...


 

 I don't know nothing about unfolding, or in the immortal words of Sam Cooke "Don't know much about....." But I do know listening to Tidal Masters is wonderful. So if I'm not heard from again I will have disappeared down the rat hole


----------



## Frederick Rea

pctazhp said:


> I don't know nothing about unfolding, or in the immortal words of Sam Cooke "Don't know much about....." *But I do know listening to Tidal Masters is wonderful*. So if I'm not heard from again I will have disappeared down the rat hole


 
 Yes indeed


----------



## HPLobster

pctazhp said:


> With sincere apologies to our esteemed doctor friend, this give me big laugh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That´s quite alright, it made me laugh hard too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I´m primarily a neurologist and will switch to psychiatry probably next year....that´s when things will really start heating up here


----------



## HPLobster

tjw321 said:


> Noooooo - my favourite thread on head-fi is going down the MQA rabbit-hole!
> 
> I've tried the Meridian Explorer 2 from a source where it was very easy to toggle MQA on and off, and with a proper MQA source file I could hear no difference between playing the FLAC file direct, and playing it "unfolded" 4 times as an MQA file. And playing the MQA file directly as a FLAC file actually increases the noise floor since the additional MQA data is inserted as noise into the FLAC.
> 
> ...


 
  
 What you are saying is true, MQA is a lossy format. 
 However the whole process of "shrinking" the files down is divided in two stages: a lossy and then a lossless one.
 For decoding the first (since it goes the other way round now) "lossless" one, Tidal/any software-decoder does already suffice, bringing it up to 96 kHz again. For the second "lossy" process up to 384 kHz, you´ll need a MQA-DAC (of course those could also handle both steps at a time).
  
 Ergo: Listening to Tidal Masters without an MQA-DAC is absolutely lossless and in either case MQA-Streaming should always (in theory of course) sound better than CD/red-book-quality. However a "true" 24bit/192 kHz-PCM should (in theory again) always sound better than MQA.
  
 Sorry, I don´t have any specific sources on that, I just absorb info as I read it and this is what I know about MQA.  
  
  
edit: added "lossy" between second and process


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> That´s quite alright, it made me laugh hard too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well done on your specialisation(s).
  
 Sorry I was being playful there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I tease my son too because he's a doctor. I'd say 'What's up Doc' each time I see him, in the tone of Bugs Bunny.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I don't know nothing about unfolding, or in the immortal words of Sam Cooke "Don't know much about....." But I do know listening to Tidal Masters is wonderful. So if I'm not heard from again I will have disappeared down the rat hole


 
  
 True I heard something different too yesterday. I'm still down in the rabbit hole. Get me out of here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Tidal Master does sound different from Tidal HiFi for the same song.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> The RSD tubes arrived two days ago. The adapters have been spotted meaning that they didn't take the slow boat. We'll see how they'll manage the last mile or ten.


 
  
 Hey O...you playin' catch up again?...we want your impressions _*now*_ lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(no more excuses! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

Hey, @tjw321...just bring that Meridian to MK in April, and we'll see what's what lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But if you do manage it, better make sure you put in for a raise first..._*you'll need it!!!*_  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










....CHEERS!...


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Well done on your specialisation(s).
> 
> Sorry I was being playful there.
> 
> ...


 
 Humour is the salt of the earth and he who is salted well remains fresh longer


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Well done on your specialisation(s).
> 
> Sorry I was being playful there.
> 
> ...


 
  
Me to Other Person:  You've got Updock in your hair.
  
Other Person: What's Updock?
  
Me:  Duh, what's up doc???


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Me to Other Person:  You've got Updock in your hair.
> 
> Other Person: What's Updock?
> 
> Me:  Duh, what's up doc???


 
  
 Heh heh, pct...I see the girls still aren't keeping you in check/busy/etc. etc.................._*where are they lol?!*_








...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Heh heh, pct...I see the girls still aren't keeping you in check/busy/etc. etc.................._*where are they lol?!*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 One sleeping, one at gym. Mouse playing


----------



## tjw321

hypnos1 said:


> Hey, @tjw321...just bring that Meridian to MK in April, and we'll see what's what lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm still not sure if I can make it. It's my daughter's birthday. Fortunately I planned ahead and I am giving her and a friend a trip to the continent for her birthday. But she is having trouble getting the time off work...the best laid plans...
 But that's a great idea. I'll try to remember to bring the Meridian if I do make it. I think a lot of people will be interested.
 Yes - I'm worried about the Euforia, and the Elears. I'm really enjoying my Elise with the T1s so that will help me stay strong - I hope.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hey O...you playin' catch up again?...we want your impressions _*now*_ lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah @Oskari  what's with the delay. I had forgotten you ordered the EL12N.


----------



## UntilThen

tjw321 said:


> Yes - I'm worried about the Euforia, and the Elears. I'm really enjoying my Elise with the T1s so that will help me stay strong - I hope.


 
  
 You mean Euforia and EL 'ears'. Going to Head-Fi meets is great but you will be tempted for sure. Elise and T1 is a solid combo though. Nothing can touch it ... eh my Euforia is enroute in the sky now. I'll find out soon.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Yeah @Oskari
> what's with the delay. I had forgotten you ordered the EL12N.




Yep. Me slow.

Adapter not here.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> You mean Euforia and EL 'ears'. Going to Head-Fi meets is great but you will be tempted for sure. Elise and T1 is a solid combo though. Nothing can touch it ... eh my Euforia is enroute in the sky now. I'll find out soon.


 

 I think we might be able to handle strong recommendation for EL-Ears headphone, but I personally consider H1 and tjw321 to be under a strict moral obligation to find Utopia a total fraud and utterly worthless. You too UT !!!!!
  
*DA*:
  

  
*NYET*:


----------



## hypnos1

tjw321 said:


> I'm still not sure if I can make it. It's my daughter's birthday. Fortunately I planned ahead and I am giving her and a friend a trip to the continent for her birthday. But she is having trouble getting the time off work...the best laid plans...
> But that's a great idea. I'll try to remember to bring the Meridian if I do make it. I think a lot of people will be interested.
> Yes - I'm worried about the Euforia, and the Elears. I'm really enjoying my Elise with the T1s so that will help me stay strong - I hope.


 
  
 Aahhh, families...!!...I do hope you can make it though, T - would be great to see you again...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...GOOD LUCK!...
  


oskari said:


> Yep. Me slow.
> 
> Adapter not here.


 
  
 More excuses...!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...(I put it down to the beer lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).


pctazhp said:


> I think we might be able to handle strong recommendation for EL-Ears headphone, but I personally consider H1 and tjw321 to be under a strict moral obligation to find Utopia a total fraud and utterly worthless. You too UT !!!!!
> 
> *DA*:
> 
> ...


 
  
 I hear you, Oh Great One...and must obey! ...
  
 ps. I just LOVE those EARS!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

I'll be recommending Utopia, HE1000 V2 or LCD 4. 

Get your wallets ready.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> More excuses...!!...:rolleyes: :wink_face:  ...(I put it down to the beer lol!   ).




That or whisky.  Well, no. I should visit the post office (the supermarket acting as one).


----------



## UntilThen

Os, I'm waiting for adapters too... for these.
  
 Just came from Langrex but he gave 2 un-identical ones !!! However both look interesting. The internal constructions and the color of the wordings. I'll keep it.


----------



## Oskari

Do you want to know the origin of those?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I'll be recommending Utopia, HE1000 V2 or LCD 4.
> 
> Get your wallets ready.


 
  
 Now that should be one _*really*_ interesting shootout, UT...but _*only*_ with side-by-side comparison to the T1s lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








...(I pity your poor ears at that show! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...but then, you _are_ our 'Testerous Supremus'!!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> That or whisky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Er...that does help lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...GOOD MAN!...(I'll drink to that...but _*not*_ with whisky, I'm afraid - my one and only experience with same was WAY back when...mixed with copius amounts of beer - _*have never forgotten it since!!!*_








...hence the Hennessy XO lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Now that should be one _*really*_ interesting shootout, UT...but _*only*_ with side-by-side comparison to the T1s lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Unfortunately, there are only Utopia, Elear, LCD3, Fostex TH600, Grado RS1i, HD800, HD800S, AKG K712, K812 and Beyer T51p that I will and want to listen to... and maybe if Audioquest NightOwl Carbon makes an appearance.
  
 That's enough ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Not sure if my Euforia will be burn in by then.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Do you want to know the origin of those?


 
  
 Sure why not. I'll take it like a man. Just don't say it's from Tibet.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Sure why not. I'll take it like a man. Just don't say it's from Tibet.




It's from Tibet! 

No. I think that the blue one is East German, likely Neuhaus, and the white one Russian, likely Svetlana.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> It's from Tibet!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 How did you find out? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You may be right. The blue one is probably a RFT rebrand. It says Foreign BVA on the tube.
  
 Mazda was a brand owned by the Thompson Huston Company and was later acquired by Thorn/EMI.
  
 The tubes and boxes are very new and might suggest that they weren't manufactured that long ago. Still in production you think?


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> How did you find out? :bigsmile_face:




The habitus told me.




> The tubes and boxes are very new and might suggest that they weren't manufactured that long ago. Still in production you think?




Nope.


----------



## richdytch

My EL11/EL12 to 6SN7 adapters showed up! Yay. 
  
 So I have finally dipped a toe into EL12N land, and so far it's pretty astonishing, especially considering that the tubes have only just been plugged in. 
  
 I'm not experiencing the harshness I had been imagining, maybe because I've partnered them with the Sylvania 6SN7WGT. Everything sounds BIG. Very firm and nicely transparent - this definitely feels like a step up. A fairly big one at that. 
  
 I usually experience something of a love/hate relationship with most new tubes as they're wearing in, so will be very interested to see how these fare. 
  
 Rich


----------



## richdytch

I think I can hear a very slight incremental increase in sweetness. A few very vague edges are leaving.The bass is now thunderous - I can feel it shaking the floor - these might not be tubes for the late evening time! And the Elise is running the coolest I've ever felt it, which is wonderful. 
  
 Listened to a lossy version of Bach's Mass in B minor while I was working, because I'm going to hear it performed tomorrow at Southwell Minster. These tubes do a splendid job of of resolving the mass of strings and voices - it normally becomes more harsh than this in the busy passages. I'm also noticing an increase in dynamic range, which I've not experienced so clearly with any other tube change on this amp before, at least not in such a pronounced way. I'm going to get another pair of EL3N in a couple of weeks and see how I fare with them as a driver too - although I think that combo might be a little cold sounding with my PMCs. 
  
 Very pleased with this. 
  
 By the way, is 6BL7 suitable as a driver tube?  
  
 Rich


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> My EL11/EL12 to 6SN7 adapters showed up! Yay.
> 
> So I have finally dipped a toe into EL12N land, and so far it's pretty astonishing, especially considering that the tubes have only just been plugged in.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I _*love*_ Sylvania 6sn7wgt with EL12N. *Everything sounds BIG* is indeed correct. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


richdytch said:


> I think I can hear a very slight incremental increase in sweetness. A few very vague edges are leaving.The bass is now thunderous - I can feel it shaking the floor - these might not be tubes for the late evening time! And the Elise is running the coolest I've ever felt it, which is wonderful.
> 
> Listened to a lossy version of Bach's Mass in B minor while I was working, because I'm going to hear it performed tomorrow at Southwell Minster. These tubes do a splendid job of of resolving the mass of strings and voices - it normally becomes more harsh than this in the busy passages. I'm also noticing an increase in dynamic range, which I've not experienced so clearly with any other tube change on this amp before, at least not in such a pronounced way. I'm going to get another pair of EL3N in a couple of weeks and see how I fare with them as a driver too - although I think that combo might be a little cold sounding with my PMCs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well Rich, you have just about put the final nail in the EL12N coffin. Now the world's supply of EL12N will run out or it's price will sky rocket.
  
 For greater excitement, try EL12N (drivers) and EL12 (powers). I think you need these rather than the EL3N...
  
 Ps... 6BL7 are not suitable as drivers..... BUT you could try EL12N as drivers and 6BL7 as powers. Total 5.4a. I'll try it now and see how it sounds.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> I think I can hear a very slight incremental increase in sweetness. A few very vague edges are leaving.The bass is now thunderous - I can feel it shaking the floor - these might not be tubes for the late evening time! And the Elise is running the coolest I've ever felt it, which is wonderful.
> 
> Listened to a lossy version of Bach's Mass in B minor while I was working, because I'm going to hear it performed tomorrow at Southwell Minster. These tubes do a splendid job of of resolving the mass of strings and voices - it normally becomes more harsh than this in the busy passages. I'm also noticing an increase in dynamic range, which I've not experienced so clearly with any other tube change on this amp before, at least not in such a pronounced way. I'm going to get another pair of EL3N in a couple of weeks and see how I fare with them as a driver too - although I think that combo might be a little cold sounding with my PMCs.
> 
> ...


 
 Good you are enjoying them, Rich.
  
 I also thought my EL12N's warmed up a little on use, ever so slightly but enough to hear.
  
 Bach should be good tomorrow. I sang it a few years ago-pretty hard and energetic for the chorus.


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> I _*love*_ Sylvania 6sn7wgt with EL12N. *Everything sounds BIG* is indeed correct. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> 
> Well Rich, you have just about put the final nail in the EL12N coffin. Now the world's supply of EL12N will run out or it's price will sky rocket.
> ...




Cheers UT. My repeated curse of typing el3n when I mean el12n struck again  

I wait with baited breath on the results of your experiment, but as I remember, single 6bl7 tubes as powes lacked a lot of oomph.


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Cheers UT. My repeated curse of typing el3n when I mean el12n struck again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm more and more amazed at how adaptable Elise is with different tubes.
  
 This combination of EL12N and 6BL7 has enough oomph to move mountains. 10 o'clock on my volume dial is loud with hd650. Initial listen is .. nice tone. A blend of the 2 tubes definitely. I can hear both tubes sonic signatures meshed together. Not warm or gluey but pretty sparkling. Bass is stronk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Definitely one pair of 6BL7 is enough here. You wouldn't want more.
  
 Try it.


----------



## UntilThen

I still prefer EL12N and EL12 but EL12N and 6BL7 is pretty good too. A bit leaner tone. Less fluff and layers. Some may actually like it.
  
 Single pair of 6BL7 definitely a bit less gain but not by much. A step up on the volume by one or 1.5 notch is all that is required.


----------



## hypnos1

richdytch said:


> My EL11/EL12 to 6SN7 adapters showed up! Yay.
> 
> So I have finally dipped a toe into EL12N land, and so far it's pretty astonishing, especially considering that the tubes have only just been plugged in.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi rich...glad you too are discovering the joys of '12 land'....they're all exceptional tubes, to say the least lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for myself, the early hours with NOS 12Ns (as powers) were such that I had to postpone listening for a full day at least...literally couldn't hack it at all!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But after a couple of days I simply couldn't believe the massive difference in sound..._almost_ (to my ears) up to the ST 12, for much less money! An incredible bargain...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Look forward to your further impressions with different combos...


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Unfortunately, there are only Utopia, Elear, LCD3, Fostex TH600, Grado RS1i, HD800, HD800S, AKG K712, K812 and Beyer T51p that I will and want to listen to... and maybe if Audioquest NightOwl Carbon makes an appearance.
> 
> That's enough !
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmmm, UT...think I'll just stick with my T1s then lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 And Euforia might not be fully burned in....but your _*ears*_ most certainly will be!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...Best of British!...


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> I still prefer EL12N and EL12 but EL12N and 6BL7 is pretty good too. A bit leaner tone. Less fluff and layers. Some may actually like it.
> 
> Single pair of 6BL7 definitely a bit less gain but not by much. A step up on the volume by one or 1.5 notch is all that is required.




Interesting, I'll have to give it a go as soon as I've bored of the current set up, which may be some while. I'm getting the sense that EL12N produces some unexpected results...


----------



## richdytch

hypnos1 said:


> Hi rich...glad you too are discovering the joys of '12 land'....they're all exceptional tubes, to say the least lol!
> 
> As for myself, the early hours with NOS 12Ns (as powers) were such that I had to postpone listening for a full day at least...literally couldn't hack it at all!!  . But after a couple of days I simply couldn't believe the massive difference in sound..._almost_ (to my ears) up to the ST 12, for much less money! An incredible bargain... ...
> 
> Look forward to your further impressions with different combos...




Cheers H1. Interesting that you found them unpleasant in their early hours.... may i ask in what way? Just interested for how I might expect my own to develop


----------



## hypnos1

richdytch said:


> Cheers H1. Interesting that you found them unpleasant in their early hours.... may i ask in what way? Just interested for how I might expect my own to develop


 
  
 Hi again rich.
  
 I suppose I ought to qualify my own experience with the suspicion that not all NOS tubes behave in the same way at the off - I've had ones that sounded great even after the first 5 mins lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But with my particular 12Ns, I was disappointed in just about every department you care to name!! The sound was flat; dull; no 'air'/spatial presence; congested; limited frequency extremes; no sparkle _whatsoever_; poor soundstage/3D rendering...need I say more?!!! I was literally about to blast our esteemed friends @UntilThen and @HOWIE13 for leading me astray, when...the very next day...I felt really ashamed of myself for ever doubting their impeccable hearing LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
  
 From the sound of it, your own initial experience was not (thankfully!) in this vein, but I'm quite sure you too will notice quite a (positive) change in them as the days go by. And as with the EL3N, I'm finding my own 12s and 12 Spezials (and EL11s!) just keep on improving over the _longer_ term still...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(I've a feeling I myself keep the same tubes in a good bit longer than some, which probably helps in this 'maturation' lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## UntilThen

untilthen said:


> Spectacular. Sylvania 6sn7wgt and EL12N has a great tone. It even outdo the same driver pairing with Bendix 6080wb which I consider a premier power tube for Elise.
> 
> EL12N has this vastness of sound with no loss of fidelity in micro details and imaging. Nice clarity.


 
  
 Rich, back in Jan' 2017, I wrote this about Sylvania 6sn7wgt and EL12N.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> But with my particular 12Ns, I was disappointed in just about every department you care to name!! The sound was flat; dull; no 'air'/spatial presence; congested; limited frequency extremes; no sparkle _whatsoever_; poor soundstage/3D rendering...need I say more?!!! I was literally about to blast our esteemed friends @UntilThen and @HOWIE13 for leading me astray, when...the very next day...I felt really ashamed of myself for ever doubting their impeccable hearing LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 We should have told you that you needed to add chilli to EL12N from the get go. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 EL12N initially did sound strident to me on first listen but then it starts to fill in with layers, 3D, soundstage while still maintaining sparkle... as you start to clock up the hours on it.
  
 It's definitely a leaner tone than it's cousin EL12 but I love the vividness.


----------



## mordy

Re the dwindling world supply of oil, more and more reserves are being discovered. Remember when the doomsday sayers said that we would run out of oil in 2020? You ain't hear them voices any more.......
  
 The same for the EL12N - lots of them for sale; you just have to go to the right place to find them.
  
 If i understood their list correctly, Langrex has 131 EL12N in stock.
  
 And the same goes for the EL12 and EL12 Spezial on European eBay sites - it's just a question of price. But I have to submit that the sources for $10 of these tubes have dried up....


----------



## richdytch

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again rich.
> 
> I suppose I ought to qualify my own experience with the suspicion that not all NOS tubes behave in the same way at the off - I've had ones that sounded great even after the first 5 mins lol!! :wink_face:
> 
> ...




Hi H1. Ok, that's all very interesting. I can definitely say my first experience with them has been wholly satisfying. They keep startling me in new ways, so im looking forward to seeing how long they'll keep doing that!


----------



## Riverstalker

If anybody wants to buy a hardly used Feliks Elise just contact me. I get Tinitus from using Headphones. Tube Amp is in like new condition and works flawless ! One set extra power tubes included, amp was purchased mid 2016. The baby has to go 

I sell it within the EU, I am from Germany ...

Cheers fellas


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> The same for the EL12N - lots of them for sale; you just have to go to the right place to find them.




I got mine from BTB.



 https://www.btb-elektronik.de/artikel/523874
 https://www.btb-elektronik.de/artikel/528246
 https://www.btb-elektronik.de/artikel/528247

No wonder they have RSD-branded stock since they bought the company.


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Rich, back in Jan' 2017, I wrote this about Sylvania 6sn7wgt and EL12N.




Fine observations sir, fine observations.


----------



## UntilThen

We have competitors for the EL12 tubes.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Wonder what tube amps are using it.
  
 22 sold for these EL12 to EL34 adapters.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-EL12-EL12n-TO-EL34-tube-converter-adapter-/201112590040?hash=item2ed33e96d8:g:OoUAAOSw44BYaHV9
  
  
 71 sold 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-EL11-EL12-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201726996830?hash=item2ef7ddb15e:g:rxEAAOSwEzxYaHTz
  
  
  
 123 sold - should I ask for royalty? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm


----------



## UntilThen

I'm suddenly keen on this DAC (off topic - but when has it been on topic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 US$580 - fierce pricing and hotly discussed in several forums 
  
 http://www.denafrips.com/store/p4/DAC_ARES.html
  

  
  
 Oppo Sonica good too?  Life's a bitch too many choices. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.head-fi.org/t/819959/oppo-sonica-dac-an-affordable-es9038pro-sabre-dac/180#post_13315123


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> We have competitors for the EL12 tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Now that figure for EL12 to EL34 adapters is what _really_ interests me, UT, given the long established reputation of the 34! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - speaks volumes for 12's prowess! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for those other amazing figures...not such a surprise really - most of us already _*know*_ the supreme nature of these tubes lol!!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> *Now that figure for EL12 to EL34 adapters is what really interests me*, UT, given the long established reputation of the 34!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know Blue Hawaii uses EL34.


----------



## Frederick Rea

Conrad Johnson as well


----------



## DecentLevi

_From previous Elise thread_
 Quote:


riverstalker said:


> Anybody within the EU wants to buy a brand new Elise ? I get Tinitus when hearing with headphones ... Got to sell my baby


 


riverstalker said:


> Ok thx mate, it was a nice journey going for the Elise and reading all about it ! It's a mess, I can't even go to the cinema right now. Have to be really careful and hope it goes away sooner or later. All the best guys !!!!!!!!!!


  

 I wonder which headphones you were using, and if you were listening at loud volumes for prolonged duration? These kinds of things can cause tinnitus, but at least the Elise itself is a neutral amp.


----------



## richdytch

I purchased a Valvo el12 on German ebay last night and this morning have a message from the seller:

"Dear Mr. Dytch
for sale, only the tube EL12/375 stands me no. 31 with 35 mA anode current available.
The tube no. 03 was already sold.
For this I apologize you in any form.
I would leave you for €35 including shipping the tube no. 31.
Please tell me, if you agree to.
You will then receive back €18 by me.
Otherwise I ask you sincerely, to withdraw from the purchase."

Do you think this is an inferior tube? Not in such good condition?

Rich


----------



## UntilThen

Rich, if the measurements are according to this, then 35mA means about 50% life left. It's best to buy one pair and make sure that it is good and working well. One working pair is all you need and this tube is worth it. 
  
 I'd recommend wege-high-fidelity as several of us have very good experience with him. Faulty tubes are exchanged with no questions ask.
  
 Here's an example and if you look at his store, you can easily pick a 2 EL12 tubes that are marked as NOS and in good condition. It can be Siemens, Telefunkun or Valvo doesn't matter.
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/EL12-Valvo-Telefunken-78mA-72mA-100-NOS-9850/222342103388?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140117130753%26meid%3D5f2460cfbf9949078cf2dce8fc5d70ce%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D322414111972


----------



## richdytch

Our daughter had 4 friends over last night and they're all still asleep after talking until 2am, so I have cause to use headphones. EL3N as drivers and EL12N as powers does a remarkable job with the he400. I've had another headphone upgrade without having to spend anything. The EL12N/6SN7WGT combo sounded a tad too dark for the he400, but this has sparkle in all the right places. Bags of power too.


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> I purchased a Valvo el12 on German ebay last night and this morning have a message from the seller:
> 
> "Dear Mr. Dytch
> for sale, only the tube EL12/375 stands me no. 31 with 35 mA anode current available.
> ...


 
 I entirely agree with UT, Rich.
  
 Although quantitatively measurements are dependent on the type of tester used we have found that several EL11/12 tubes, analysed as 'gut' on some old German testers have had only 50% anode/cathode current or even less in some cases, and they have a high failure rate.
  
 Best to buy NOS or tubes that are reading at least 85% for the tester being used.
  
 With EL12 tubes most testers regard 100% at around 72mA, so that tube is, to my mind, a non-starter in Elise. It might be okay in a different situation, of course.


----------



## UntilThen

@aqsw is a fan of EL3N and EL12N. @Oskari will join him soon. I think @richard89 likes it too. Hope his Elise is ok now.
  
 I'm just happy with EL12N and EL12. Listening with my modified hd650 a lot these days. Very nice tone. For me, I'm happy these are the final tubes with Elise before Euforia's arrival which should be sometime next week.
  
*I'm at post number 6666. I should freeze now.*


----------



## richdytch

Thanks @UntilThen and @Howie13, I knew it was best to check with he forum. Purchase cancelled.


----------



## richard89

Thanks @UntilThen, amp is ok now so far without the EL11's in them. Today My EL3N adapter came in so I paired them with the Bendix 6080 because it's what I had the powers at that time. Was really impressed by what I heard. I put back the EL12N just to see how it would compare because I remembered I really like it. And by my standards, the Bendix 6080 paired with the EL3N were way better sounding to the point where I think it made the EL12N combo sound mediocre. With the Bendix I felt encompassed, with the EL12N it sounded like it wasn't punchy at all and just flat.


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> Thanks @UntilThen, amp is ok now so far without the EL11's in them. Today My EL3N adapter came in so I paired them with the Bendix 6080 because it's what I had the powers at that time. Was really impressed by what I heard. I put back the EL12N just to see how it would compare because I remembered I really like it. And by my standards, the Bendix 6080 paired with the EL3N were way better sounding to the point where I think it made the EL12N combo sound mediocre. With the Bendix I felt encompassed, with the EL12N it sounded like it wasn't punchy at all and just flat.


 
  
 Ok... if you say so about the Bendix. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It is a good power tube after all. Strange though you find the EL12N flat. Sounds like @hypnos1 first day with it. It's anything but flat I can assure you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Glad you're enjoying your Elise and that she is ok. 
  
 Anymore chinese songs to recommend? I'm listening to 谢采妘.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Ok... if you say so about the Bendix.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...once burned in well, I agree my 12Ns were _anything_ but flat lol!!...as I think everyone else finds, apart from @richard89's experience. But strange things do sometimes happen, for a variety of reasons of course!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## UntilThen

Rich says EL3N and EL12N is like another headphone upgrade without having to spend anything and that it has sparkle in all the right places. Richard says it wasn't punchy at all and just flat.


----------



## connieflyer

Wow!She looks like I feel this morning.  Just tracked amp ,The tracking number may be incorrect or the status update is not yet available. Please verify your tracking number and try again later.  I will give it another day On Polish site No data about the consignment during the last 30 days - check whether I entered her number.​​ b) Search for shipment with the specified number in the longer term (9 months Wonder if I should email Lukasz he said they shipped on the 8th. You would think if would have shone up on tracking by now.​


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Wow!She looks like I feel this morning.  Just tracked amp ,The tracking number may be incorrect or the status update is not yet available. Please verify your tracking number and try again later.  I will give it another day On Polish site No data about the consignment during the last 30 days - check whether I entered her number.​​ b) Search for shipment with the specified number in the longer term (9 months Wonder if I should email Lukasz he said they shipped on the 8th. You would think if would have shone up on tracking by now.​


 
  
 You are prettier than her. You have to enter your tracking number without spaces. Like this...
  
CP189943054PL
  
That's my number. Now key in yours. Should say it has left Lubliniec and headed for Warsaw.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks UT, just tried it, now showing up. That was the format Lukasz sent so that was the way I tracked it.
 March 9, 2017 , 3:51 pm

  Processed Through Facility 
 WARSZAWA WER, POLAND
 March 9, 2017 , 9:38 am
 Processed Through Facility 
 WARSZAWA WER, POLAND
 March 8, 2017 , 1:12 pm
 Acceptance 
 POLAND

  
 Should be good to go, thanks for correcting my error. CF.  Better get Connor out for walk, weather has turned bitter cold again.  Temps are swinging twenty to thirty degrees in a day.  We had wind storm come through here three days ago, winds were clocked up to 65 miles per hour,  on and off all day. Power out for about 800,000 people at height of strom, Still have 225,000 without power. -9.44 C this morning and they said another day or two to get the rest of power restored, lots of damage around the Detroit area. Not seen it like this in a long time. Well, have a great day.


----------



## UntilThen

Hang on to Conner tight. Don't get blown away. You might get your amp before me.


----------



## connieflyer

Unfortunatly the winds are blowing west to east, so it will probably blow the amp backwards!  Winds have subsided, but the cold remains for the rest of next week, before it moderates.  Should have the amp by then,  If your amp does not get there in time for the show, perhaps they could delay the show for a few weeks so you could still go!


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm suddenly keen on this DAC (off topic - but when has it been on topic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I am quite worried about you. Is there any way I can talk directly to your wife to set up an intervention?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Unfortunatly the winds are blowing west to east, so it will probably blow the amp backwards!  Winds have subsided, but the cold remains for the rest of next week, before it moderates.  Should have the amp by then,  If your amp does not get there in time for the show, perhaps they could delay the show for a few weeks so you could still go!


 

 As I sip on my morning coffee while listening to EL11/12 and wait for another gorgeous Scottsdale spring morning to dawn, I'm sort of sorry about your winds, storm and amp deprivation. But more importantly, I never pass up a good opportunity to post another version of Four Strong Winds.


----------



## connieflyer

Always up for another version of that song.  I can not tell you how much I appreciate your humor in the morning, (well, I can' because I don't!!) so there!  You doing okay? Move on track? Girls doing okay? Will we need to install a translator program after you move? So many questions so little time!
  
 Something to wake up UT with this morning, now that you are already up


----------



## pctazhp

CF:  You are most kind))) Love the Hollies song and your taste in women is impeccable.
  
 All is good here. Consistent with my life motto of why do something today that can be done tomorrow or even later, move may be on hold for a year or so. That will give you time to learn Russian without need for translator.


----------



## connieflyer

No problem, I know from my past encounter with Russian Bear bombers back in Navy patrol days, they know sign language!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> No problem, I know from my past encounter with Russian Bear bombers back in Navy patrol days, they know sign language!


----------



## connieflyer

Got a good laugh at this, could just picture me trying to move like that, as I fall over and break in pieces!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Got a good laugh at this, could just picture me trying to move like that, as I fall over and break in pieces!


 

 For sure, I feel the same way )))
  
 I know this won't say much for my level of musical sophistication, but this is one of my favorite recordings. I'm sending it to you as good Saturday morning feel-good music. Girls will be waking soon, and I have to start appearing like I'm actually accomplishing something this morning)))


----------



## connieflyer

I know what you mean I have to get moving get the vacuuming done wash the kitchen floor do the breakfast dishes took two loads of laundry and then do some shopping before I can rest today. So sad don't you feel bad for me period have a great one


----------



## richard89

untilthen said:


> Ok... if you say so about the Bendix.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well it was only in comparison to the Bendix 6080.. I feel like this is also because my ears are sensitive to treble and the Bendix 6080 have a warmer presentation. So I'm always a little hesitant to turn the volume up when the presentation is brighter, which I felt the EL3N and EL12N were after I switched from the 6080's. So I felt like the 6080's were in a league ahead of the EL12N's -- there was much more weight(mass?) behind everything.
  
 Thanks, I was really worried for a few days, but she is alright now and I'm relieved.
  
 Chinese songs -- I've been listening to Jacky Cheung lately and I want to recommend Long Piao-Piao, who I discovered a few weeks back since I see you have a taste for the classics. 
  
 Have a good one!


----------



## Spork67

Windy you say?
  
 <iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SbGKTxUA5H8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> CF:  You are most kind))) Love the Hollies song and your taste in women is impeccable.
> 
> All is good here. Consistent with my life motto of why do something today that can be done tomorrow or even later, move may be on hold for a year or so. That will give you time to learn Russian without need for translator.


 
  
 Song is lovely indeed. CF I will keep you in the DJ chair since you're showing improvements. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ah ha. Staying in Scottsdale for another year? I am happy for you. Perhaps I may visit you.


----------



## connieflyer

And should such an auspicious occasion occur perhaps you can let me know when and maybe I can show up as well then all we need is H1 to show up and it'll be party Central at least until dark or an early nap.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I am quite worried about you. Is there any way I can talk directly to your wife to set up an intervention?


 
  
 There will be a deck and a dac within a year. That's my plan and don't talk to my wife about it.


----------



## HPLobster

Excellent songwriting and fascinating female vocals sometimes are pretty much the best combination music can offer....
  
 I´d like to share two of my most recent discoveries:
  
 https://listen.tidal.com/album/67488677
  

  
 https://listen.tidal.com/album/66809651


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> And should such an auspicious occasion occur perhaps you can let me know when and maybe I can show up as well then all we need is H1 to show up and it'll be party Central at least until dark or an early nap.


 
  
 Sure we'll go through our bucket list.


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> Well it was only in comparison to the Bendix 6080.. I feel like this is also because my ears are sensitive to treble and the Bendix 6080 have a warmer presentation. So I'm always a little hesitant to turn the volume up when the presentation is brighter, which I felt the EL3N and EL12N were after I switched from the 6080's. So I felt like the 6080's were in a league ahead of the EL12N's -- there was much more weight(mass?) behind everything.
> 
> Thanks, I was really worried for a few days, but she is alright now and I'm relieved.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Long Piao-Piao. Yes you are my man. It's a return to my roots because I don't know mandarin. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You have describe the Bendix 6080wb characteristics well. Did you get the slotted version and how much did it cost you? A picture would be good.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I know this won't say much for my level of musical sophistication, but this is one of my favorite recordings. I'm sending it to you as good Saturday morning feel-good music.


 
  
 Love 'Daydream believer'. Music evokes memories and that's a song I grew up with.


----------



## UntilThen

Lobster, you've a LCD-3f? How did that go with Elise?


----------



## UntilThen

Oldcheese has Metrum Acoustics Pavane and Elise and HD800. Awesome combination I'd say. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/799682/all-things-metrum-acoustics/60#post_13332278


----------



## HPLobster

Just got it the day before yesterday....and I have to work this weekend....and after all I don´t want to start rejoicing too early....
  
  
 but so far, I´m smiling a lot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . And I´m going to sell the Fostex. 
  
 Oh, and I love the Elise more than ever


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> I entirely agree with UT, Rich.
> 
> Although quantitatively measurements are dependent on the type of tester used we have found that several EL11/12 tubes, analysed as 'gut' on some old German testers have had only 50% anode/cathode current or even less in some cases, and they have a high failure rate.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi H13...on this subject I would just like to *WARN* people _*on stated "100%" measurements*_.
  
 Having in the past recommended folks to only go for tubes that have emission figures of 60mA or _*more*_, I foolishly ignored my own advice and went for a pair of TFK Spezials that were listed as "100%", but with _*no actual emission figures*_....*BAD MISTAKE!!  *The first one at least is outputting far less than both my other (used) tubes, and I'm not a very happy bunny...but lesson learned lol!! Luckily, I only(?!) paid $50 each, which is still a bit of money however....
  
*And so once more, folks...DO NOT BUY ANY USED EL12 TUBES THAT ONLY STATE "100%" (or any % figure!)...ALWAYS CHECK FOR A STATED EMISSION FIGURE OF AT LEAST 60mA!!! *








.....CHEERS!...


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Just got it the day before yesterday....and I have to work this weekend....and after all I don´t want to start rejoicing too early....
> 
> 
> but so far, I´m smiling a lot
> ...


 
  
 We'll keep you as our mascot. You are good for Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm waiting to try out the LCD-3 at the coming meet. Haven't heard any LCDs before.


----------



## HPLobster

Oh, I certainly will spread the gospel on this masterful amp


----------



## HPLobster

Sorry, no more impressions today since I got a meeting with a certain someone who has been waiting to send me something for too long....


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


>


 
  
 Very tasteful. Colour of the picture is perfect. It has that deep rich mahogany look. Good compliment of HD800 and LCD-3f.
  
 Ha you even got the blue light reflected spot on.


----------



## UntilThen

HD850 + Elise with el12n and el12. Mystic, haunting and surreal.


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## DecentLevi

Nice to see some electronic music. Enigma is the downtempo / lounge / chillout sub-style of this genre of limitless diversity


----------



## UntilThen

How about this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I haven't listen to my Daft Punk LP for a while.


----------



## connieflyer

I got lucky once, I remember being lucky but not why, oh well at least the music is easy to understand


----------



## connieflyer

I will take my leave with this tune, it relaxes me, and I need that tonight.


----------



## UntilThen

Hello @angpsi  I just upgraded to Audirvana Plus 3.0.1


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Very tasteful. Colour of the picture is perfect. It has that deep rich mahogany look. Good compliment of HD800 and LCD-3f.
> 
> Ha you even got the blue light reflected spot on.


 

 Thank you very much!
 Actually I did them in a little bit of a hurry yesterday....but when those famous EL-Adapters will arrive, I´m going to take the time to shoot some real "front-page-material"


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Hello @angpsi  I just upgraded to Audirvana Plus 3.0.1


 

 Excellent! Thanks for the tip! Jumped on the bandwagon myself promptly with no hesitation, albeit I was sad to find that I wasn't eligible for a free licence. Fortunately there was the offer for an upgrade option!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Excellent! Thanks for the tip! Jumped on the bandwagon myself promptly with no hesitation, albeit I was sad to find that I wasn't eligible for a free licence. Fortunately there was the offer for an upgrade option!


 

 Yup 39 bucks for the upgrade. I'm listening to Tidal Hifi inside Audirvana Plus 3. Overkill?
  
 Sounds good but so does my JRiver 22.


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Thank you very much!
> Actually I did them in a little bit of a hurry yesterday....but when those famous EL-Adapters will arrive, I´m going to take the time to shoot some real "front-page-material"


 

 Let the centerfold begin.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Yup 39 bucks for the upgrade. I'm listening to Tidal Hifi inside Audirvana Plus 3. Overkill?
> 
> Sounds good but so does my JRiver 22.


 

 I won't be sitting with the Elise until Tuesday, so critical impressions will have to wait...☹️ Still, last Friday I spent the whole day on original hi-res files and, imho, TIDAL MQA doesn't come even near them (granted though, they were mostly audiophile recordings).
  
 Also, wonder of wonders, I've been listening to TFK EL12spez/EL12st and it felt they benefited greatly from getting more breathing air—sound opening up, great space and detail, punchy bass and everything. Took them a while! On a different note, after a very long listening session (basically the whole day, from 10am to 2am!) my ears seemed to suffer a bit of a pain from all the punchy rhythm—no tints though, or anything like that. Do you think I stress–tested my ears?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I won't be sitting with the Elise until Tuesday, so critical impressions will have to wait...☹️ Still, last Friday I spent the whole day on original hi-res files and, imho, TIDAL MQA doesn't come even near them (granted though, they were mostly audiophile recordings).
> 
> Also, wonder of wonders, I've been listening to TFK EL12spez/EL12st and it felt they benefited greatly from getting more breathing air—sound opening up, great space and detail, punchy bass and everything. Took them a while! On a different note, after a very long listening session (basically the whole day, from 10am to 2am!) my ears seemed to suffer a bit of a pain from all the punchy rhythm—no tints though, or anything like that. Do you think I stress–tested my ears?


 

 I have lots of hi-res files too and I play them through JRiver 22. They don't sound all that different from Tidal Hifi or Masters. All good. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Listening from 10 to 2 and you complain of pain. More likely pain from the headphone grip on your ears and head - think medieval torture clamp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I doubt El12 Spez El12 is that strident. On Elise I think they should sound like a smooth operator. At least when I was using EL11 and EL12 - it does. On the other hand, if you listen from 10 to 2 on La Figaro 339, you would need ear transplant by now. That beast ain't going to rock you gently.
  
 Omg... did you listen from 10am to 2am? Are you trying to break the guinness world record?


----------



## UntilThen

There's actually a post on this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 http://www.head-fi.org/t/360247/what-is-the-world-record-for-wearing-a-pair#post_4687689
  
 see post #3


----------



## hypnos1

hplobster said:


> Thank you very much!
> Actually I did them in a little bit of a hurry yesterday....but when those famous EL-Adapters will arrive, I´m going to take the time to shoot some real "front-page-material"


 
  
 Can't wait to see those photos then, HPL...what gear are you using?


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> I won't be sitting with the Elise until Tuesday, so critical impressions will have to wait...☹️ Still, last Friday I spent the whole day on original hi-res files and, imho, TIDAL MQA doesn't come even near them (granted though, they were mostly audiophile recordings).
> 
> Also, wonder of wonders, I've been listening to TFK EL12spez/EL12st and it felt they benefited greatly from getting more breathing air—sound opening up, great space and detail, punchy bass and everything. Took them a while! On a different note, after a very long listening session (basically the whole day, from 10am to 2am!) my ears seemed to suffer a bit of a pain from all the punchy rhythm—no tints though, or anything like that. Do you think I stress–tested my ears?


 
  
 Hi ang...glad you persevered with those Spezials - they're well worth the effort lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's hope the ferrite choke job does the trick for folks...will be much more happy to then be able to recommend these tubes more fully..._*just so long as they are either NOS (but expensive) or 60mA (minimum!!) emission test if used!!*_





...
  
 And that lengthy listening session is _*simply insane lol!!*_








...I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone does that..._ever!_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(but full marks for your endurance and effort _all in a good cause _lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. You too are now a fully paid up member of the F-A Mad Hatters Party!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## HPLobster

hypnos1 said:


> Can't wait to see those photos then, HPL...what gear are you using?


 

 Thank you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I´m using a Sony Alpha 77 and these pictures were done with a Sony 1.8 50m fixed focal length. Amongst others I also own a Tamron F/2.8 90mm Di Macro that should lead to some interesting pictures with the Elise


----------



## UntilThen

Macro is great with Elise and tubes. I have a Nikon 60mm macro and this was taken with it.


----------



## hypnos1

hplobster said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That looks one very nice camera...and lenses...any special lighting gear? Should be some very nice pictures coming along....I can see an interesting shootout with @UntilThen coming along also lol!


----------



## UntilThen

I prefer to take picture of cars at shows. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I took this at the Sydney Motor Show 2012.


----------



## HPLobster

hypnos1 said:


> That looks one very nice camera...and lenses...any special lighting gear? Should be some very nice pictures coming along....I can see an interesting shootout with @UntilThen coming along also lol!


 
  
 Yeah, I´m very pleased with it. It used to be something very special back when it appeared, nowadays I´m not keeping up with THIS kind of technology anymore... I´m happy whenever I have the time to use it once in a while...
 No, no special lighting, just a few little lamps sitting around


----------



## pctazhp

Yesterday we had lunch at my favorite pizza joint. They play TV shows from the 50s like The Ozzie and Harriet Show, and music from 50s.and 60s like this one which was playing yesterday. Seeing that most on this thread seem lately to be having trouble distinguishing between noise and music, I decided to post it.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 How do you like this car?
 (image missing)


----------



## richdytch

Now then. New manufacture EL12. Or supposedly. Have we been over this before?

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/157396/Tube-EL-12375-Vaccum-Pentode-Base-8-Pin?ref=searchDetail


----------



## mordy

Nothing new under the sun - as far as I know, they are all the same. Some are rated 425V, others 375V and I assume the rest are 250V. They are labeled with many brands but it appears that they all came from the same factories in the former East Germany.


----------



## richdytch

mordy said:


> Nothing new under the sun - as far as I know, they are all the same. Some are rated 425V, others 375V and I assume the rest are 250V. They are labeled with many brands but it appears that they all came from the same factories in the former East Germany.




Ah, ok, so not actually new manufacture then...


----------



## UntilThen

The day Elise came. 7 days after Henryk put his signature on the certificate, I got my Elise - 27th Oct 2015. That's 7 days by EMS.
  
 So my Euforia left on the 6th March - today is 13th. 
  
 7 days


----------



## UntilThen

It's here. Euphoria.


----------



## connieflyer

Origin Post is Preparing Shipment
  
 
   We have received notice that the originating post is preparing to dispatch this mail piece.


  March 9, 2017 , 3:51 pm
 Processed Through Facility 
 WARSZAWA WER, POLAND
 March 9, 2017 , 9:38 am
 Processed Through Facility 
 WARSZAWA WER, POLAND
 March 8, 2017 , 1:12 pm
 Acceptance 
 POLAND


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> It's here. Euphoria.


----------



## pctazhp

The sound of melancholy


----------



## UntilThen

4 pairs of adapters from Mrs Xuling arrived.
  
 EF80 to 6SN7 - Elise
 EF86 to 6SN7 - Elise
 EF86 to 6SJ7 - La Figaro 339
 C3G  to 6SJ7 - La Figaro 339
  
 First up for listening... simultaneously  
  
 Mullard EF80 and Chatham 6520 on Elise.
 Valvo C3G/s and Svetlana 6H13C on La Figaro 339
  
 smiling now
  
 Please Elise..... don't sound so good on so many tubes. I can't keep up with you ! 
  
 Be back later .... I need to have a good listen but initial listening is very good.


----------



## hypnos1

*UPDATE ON MY EL12 SPEZIAL DISAPPOINTMENT*.....
  
 Following my recent experience with the first tube - the second being just the same - and my advice to only go for tubes with a minimum stated emission value of 60mA, my anguish/annoyance is in fact now compounded by the fact that on checking the listing, they were actually *listed as* *NOS!!! *





...
  
 And so now, it would appear that *we can't even rely on simply 'NOS'* listing as being a guarantee of the value we do need for proper functioning in our amps lol!!
  
 Therefore, I recommend that if anyone wants to go for these tubes, the safest bet is to *ONLY CHOOSE TUBES WITH 60mA MINIMUM STATED VALUE, USED OR NOS!!*...
  
Be careful out there!...





...CHEERS...CJ


----------



## mordy

*Bundeswehr ( military )*
*     Röhren Telefunken   *
*       matched pair*
*                 EL12*
*      spezial*
*  
          getestet:*

* 72/72mA (42mA=100%) *
* 
            NOS/NIB
        *
*    mit Garantie!!!**  *
  
*Hi h1,*
  
*Just picked a sold pair at random that was tested by reputable seller Wege hi-fi. The values given are 72mA where 42mA equals 100%. Where does your recommendation of 60mA fit in? *
*It appears to me that if the tubes measured 42mA they would be considered to be in new condition.*
*In addition, my understanding is that every tester is different, and the values can only be considered in relation to new values, and/or minimum values for good, for that specific tester.*


----------



## pctazhp

This morning a Facebook Friend of mine shared this video. He said it is one of the most powerful music videos he ever watched/listened to. I agree. Things are a little slow here now so I'll share it.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> *Bundeswehr ( military )*
> *     Röhren Telefunken   *
> *       matched pair*
> *                 EL12*
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 When you look in depth at the various listed test measurements/values/what constitutes "100%", it is quite clear there is much confusion going on here...for one reason or another lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some say 36mA is 100%; some 42mA, others 72mA. Regardless of what the card/chart may say as regards "Gut", "Sehr Gut", "100%" etc .etc., the actual* plate emission value *would seem to me to be the only reliable indicator as to the _*true*_ strength of the tube.
  
 From the experience of some others, and the fact that my latest two "NOS", "100%" tubes require _*twice*_ the volume setting at least compared to my first two (used!) tubes (plus, they clip/distort well below 'high' volume), I think it's safe to assume therefore that the lower figures quoted are indeed _*not*_ sufficient to work properly in our amps. And therefore the wise course of action is to cover one's bets by taking the *72mA* level as the reference point for *"100%", *which then makes my figure of *60mA minimum* constitute a tube that should still have plenty of life left, and be strong enough for our purposes.
  
 This, to me, is the only sensible course of action - I don't wish for anyone else to suffer my own VERY expensive misfortune...if these last tubes don't deliver more power with further burn-in (which I very much doubt, because they would need to _*double!*_), then they will in effect be unusable..._*in my particular amp*_...and there's the rub...I therefore have no comeback with the vendor alas!!
  
 Better safe than sorry IMHO!!


----------



## UntilThen

Let me chime in. 
  
 My pair of EL12 from wege-high-fidelity does say 72mA = 100%  So it appears his own listings has different 100%.  However, I've never had problem with his tubes, including one ECC31 bought sometime ago.
  
*Röhre **Telefunken*
*              EL12 *
  
*             getestet:*
*            73mA*
*             (72mA=100%)*
*        in MINT/NOS *
*             condition*
*         mit Garantie!!!**  **    *


----------



## UntilThen

Still testing EF80 and EF86 on Elise. Nothing to report yet.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Let me chime in.
> 
> My pair of EL12 from wege-high-fidelity does say 72mA = 100%  So it appears his won listing has different 100%.  However, I've never has problem with his tubes, including one ECC31 bought sometime ago.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yo, UT..._*confusion*_ _*reigns!!*_  And something else that has me suspicious - I've been watching the ebay activity a lot re. these tubes, and the _cognoscenti_ obviously know something others don't...tubes with "Gut" and "Sehr Gut" having the lower readings _*do not sell*_, even though the prices are very attractive...should have smelled a rat back then lol!!!


----------



## HOWIE13

Wege-high-fidelity is correct in both instances.
  
 The 'characteristic' anode and grid voltages quoted in the data sheets for EL12 and EL12spez are different and yield different plate emission currents.
  
 100% for EL12 is 72mA and for EL12spez it's 42mA. For EL11 it's 36mA. This only applies if the tester uses the standard data sheet figures, which most do.
  
 Just ensure you are either given the % figure, or have the raw figures from the seller to work out the % emission from his figures for his tester. I would look for at least 85%. 
  
 Some testers use different testing voltages from the data sheet characteristic figures and will therefore yield different emission results. This is okay as long as the seller tells you the results as a percentage of the expected 100% value for his tester, or provides the raw data from his tester to work it out yourself.
  
 Beware statements like 'tube reads gut' etc. As H1 has pointed out the 'cognoscenti' know a thing or two more than we do about this as many of these tubes don't sell, inspite of relatively very low prices, and it's almost certainly because their emissions are less than 50%. I think an early tube I bought that failed fell into this category.
  
 It's been a useful learning point for me.
  
 None of this of course _guarantees_ a tube will work satisfactorily, but it increases the chances that it will.


----------



## hypnos1

howie13 said:


> Wege-high-fidelity is correct in both instances.
> 
> The 'characteristic' anode and grid voltages quoted in the data sheets for EL12 and EL12spez are different and yield different plate emission currents.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi H13...this is looking more a minefield by the minute lol!
  
 As @mordy pointed out - and yourself above - 42mA is being quoted by some as "100%" for the Spezial, and yet I've seen a good few stating the 72mA figure for them, as well as the standard 12 (in fact I've just bought one measuring "86mA... 72mA 100%"). So this is indeed a tricky one to call LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..._*BUYER BEWARE...as always, with our glass wonders lol!*_


----------



## HOWIE13

hypnos1 said:


> Hi H13...this is looking more a minefield by the minute lol!
> 
> As @mordy pointed out - and yourself above - 42mA is being quoted by some as "100%" for the Spezial, and yet I've seen a good few stating the 72mA figure for them, as well as the standard 12 (in fact I've just bought one measuring "86mA... 72mA 100%"). So this is indeed a tricky one to call LOL!
> 
> ...


 
 Yes it wouldn't surprise me if even well -meaning sellers get confused too when measuring these tubes-not to mention the odd rogue and of course the testers themselves need calibrating from time to time.
 In your example a seller might have a tester that's been set to give a 100% figure as 72mA for EL12spez, (eg, Ua 425V, Ug -16V, instead of the conventional Ug of -19V).
  
*As ever, always buy from a seller who accepts returns.*


----------



## HPLobster

mordy said:


> *Bundeswehr ( military )*
> *     Röhren Telefunken   *
> *       matched pair*
> *                 EL12*
> ...


 
  
 LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 These are MY tubes. I bought exactly those, I checked the picture in my ebay-account


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 My philosophy when approaching new tube families is to try several different varieties and try to figure what sounds the best in my system. Once I know what I want, I may splurge on an expensive new pair in pristine condition (nah, don't believe it) and pay top dollar (not true).
  
 So for the price of a pair or two at the $250 price points I rather have two dozen tubes, even if it means that most of them are used and measure 60-85% if you can believe the sellers. It appears that I bought tubes from people whose fathers were repair men or collectors, and it seems that the stickers on the tubes with tube measurements were made some 30-40 years ago. Interesting, eh?
  
 Here is a tube that arrived today. It was advertised as testing Good on a Funke W19 tester.
  





  
 Did I take a chance? Yes. OK - around $21 shipped is better than $100 + shipping.
  
 The tube survived shipping from Germany in a padded envelope with only a tight piece of cardboard wrapped around it. The pins were dirty and corroded. Took out my pen knife and gently scraped the pins - nice gold plating becomes evident. And I noticed that the base is a little loose. Oh well, but is it going to work?
  
 Looking at the base there are two lower case letters in white: vk. Ah, June 1949.
  
 Since the prices have shot up on the EL12 tubes I don't have another Telefunken at the moment (bought one previously, but DOA - got a full refund - no, DWM, meaning that it was Dead When Mailed out based on a worried email from the seller Yvonne), so I paired it with another nice looking taller tube - a Tungsram EL12 with code ECL on it, whatever that means.
  
 Turning on the Elise - blue light on. Turning on the amp with speakers disconnected. Taking a deep breath, waiting a little. If something is going to pop or crackle when warming up, I don't want hear it. OK , now pushing in the button for the speakers - yep - it makes sound. Checking right and left; the 49ner TFK is working.
  
 It sounds quite good together with the Tungsram with a pair of TFK EL11 from the same decade, as drivers.
  
 The TFK EL12 has a very nice mid range and treble, but the Tungsram goes much deeper in the base.
  
 Look at the picture above. It says gut but what was scribbled over above it? Does it really say EL12 on the tube?
  
 Here is another picture - what do you think it is?
  




  
 No - it is not an EL15 because there is no such tube. The EL13 (it does exist as a single tube) is tubular so that's not it. EL11? EL12? And why is the date on the picture from 2011?
  
 I fully expect all my fellow_ "bastlers"_ to be able to answer all my questions....


----------



## richdytch

My journey with the EL12N continues. I'm getting very different results using different power amps between the Elise and my speakers. When using my Quad 909, the best combo so far is EL12N with 6SN7WGT, as I mentioned before. But with my Topping class D amp, EL12N/EL3N seems to rule. What sounds unpleasantly thin and edgy on the Quad seems remarkably rounded and smooth on the Topping. If I had to sum it up, it just sounds like there's excellent extension at the frequency extremes, with almost no discernable distortion or colouration in between. It's a very clear window.


----------



## angpsi

It... works!!!....
  


 My sincerest gratitude to @Frederick Rea for this is highly acceptable to my taste! Hum be gone!


----------



## MIKELAP

Hey guys if any of you are looking for C3G and  C3GS i am looking to sell this as a  bundle  Thanks for looking.    http://www.head-fi.org/t/839887/1-pair-siemens-c3g-and-3-siemens-c3gs


----------



## hypnos1

hplobster said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi HPL...at 72mA those should be real beauties lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...now it would appear you'll need to get those ferrite chokes suggested by @Frederick Rea, and used successfully now by @angpsi. Glorious sound awaits you!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> My philosophy when approaching new tube families is to try several different varieties and try to figure what sounds the best in my system. Once I know what I want, I may splurge on an expensive new pair in pristine condition (nah, don't believe it) and pay top dollar (not true).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Yes indeed, it's often a good idea to try out different tubes in one's own system by first looking for some reasonably priced used ones, and placing one's faith in luck lol! Either that, or do as @pctazhp did and take on trust others' findings and splash out straight away!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 The downside to the first approach is that if one is really unlucky and gets substandard tubes, then their full potential may well not be experienced and give an incorrect, negative impression. This has happened on more than one occasion even just with our amps alas!! I personally now prefer to stick with the safer option of going for what are more _likely_ to be good, strong tubes...and not necessarily NOS - especially when others have already taken the risk of trialling them lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is where my - and @HOWIE13's - recent statements on this subject come in....trying to help steer folks through the minefield of certain tubes. But as H13 says, there are still no guarantees!! There is always this element of _*luck*_ with tubes...no matter how much one pays...all we can hope for is to minimise _bad_ luck LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Re. your mystery tube... to me - and from your description of its performance - I suspect it is in fact an *11* and not a 12. I'm quite sure a TFK EL12 should be well up there in the bass stakes, in addition to those other areas you mentioned. And if it _*is*_ meant to be a 12, then that lower performance would possibly indicate a less-than-ideal tube, as I referred to previously 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(have seen too many tubes listed as "Gut" with very low readings indeed, I'm afraid, and not even worth $20 alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 It appears that you are confirming my suspicion that this is an EL11 tube and not an EL12. Is there any way to tell apart a TFK EL11 from a TFK EL12?
  
 There is a definitively a difference in the sound of this tube compared to the EL12 when listening to each channel individually. The sound stage is not completely centered, but easily corrected by moving the balance control a drop. (Possible an effect of mixing EL12 at 1.2A with EL11 at 0.9A?) However, since the bass is non directional, the two of them sound pretty good together.
  
 But I need a TFK EL12.... Don't know what to tell the seller to convince them that the tube was misrepresented. Any suggestions?
  
  
 ATM listening to a very famous tune that sounds great with a great sound stage - wonder if the sound has been enhanced?
  
 Sing Sing Sing with Benny Goodman:


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> It appears that you are confirming my suspicion that this is an EL11 tube and not an EL12. Is there any way to tell apart a TFK EL11 from a TFK EL12?
> 
> ...




  
 Hi m...I'm afraid I haven't yet been able to discern any obvious physical differences between the TFK EL11 and 12, more's the pity! But given the 12 has double the power output, this could well explain the channel imbalance. But then, that could simply be down to different (same-) tube strengths! Then again, the degree of difference in sound would add to the "different tube" argument.
  
 Unfortunately, an "awkward" vendor could easily choose to ignore such factors if he so wished, and not feel obliged to give you satisfaction...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The best course of action - as always in such a case - is to try to at least appeal to their good nature... through polite, informed statement of concerns/questions, and hope they do the decent thing! (If the vendor has a test machine, his figures - bearing in mind that the EL11 should likely be based on 36mA being 100% - could well give a clue lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). GOOD LUCK!...


----------



## HPLobster

angpsi said:


> It... works!!!....
> 
> My sincerest gratitude to @Frederick Rea for this is highly acceptable to my taste! Hum be gone!


 
  
  


hypnos1 said:


> Hi HPL...at 72mA those should be real beauties lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Absolutely! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But what inner diameter do they have? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Amazon sells tons of different sizes and I can´t seem to find @Frederick Rea ´s post...


----------



## HOWIE13

hplobster said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01E5ALVWQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  
 The 3mm internal diameter is still a bit big, but is the smallest I could source, so, like angpsi, I just filled up the space with a bit of kitchen foil.


----------



## HPLobster

howie13 said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01E5ALVWQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> The 3mm internal diameter is still a bit big, but is the smallest I could source, so, like angpsi, I just filled up the space with a bit of kitchen foil.


 
  
 Perfect, just ordered them!
 The EL-adapters are still in Hongkong if I were to believe tracking.... Anticipation is the greatest joy!


----------



## angpsi

Hi HPLobster and HOWIE13, mine are a 5mm inner diameter just because that was all I could find readily available at the electronics shop. I wonder whether more ferrite makes a difference compared to the 3mm choke. Probably not, but worth pointing out nevertheless (for the benefit of scientific research, as always)!


----------



## HPLobster

Thank you very much @angpsi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Haha, we have now officially reached the summit of audiophile lunacy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Talking about how the inner diameter of ferrite chokes influences sound within the system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hmmm..... maybe I will order both sizes and A/B them... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 .
 .
 .
 .
 .


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Hi @HPLobster and @HOWIE13, mine are a 5mm inner diameter just because that was all I could find readily available at the electronics shop. I wonder whether more ferrite makes a difference compared to the 3mm choke. Probably not, but worth pointing out nevertheless (for the benefit of scientific research, as always)!


 
 I wouldn't ponder on it if it's quiet. That buzz was so loud if it's gone it's gone, whatever the size of the diameter. YIPPEE!!!!


----------



## Frederick Rea

Feel very happy that you all could use this idea, with satisfactory results. And thank you all for your help to make me achieve this quality in SOUND with the work that has been done here
  
 Have another one, that I use for a long time, with good results as well:
  
 The only condition is that it must be with metalic feet on Elise (I did it with Ceraball, but could be done with any metalic feet)
  
 Antistatic Dissipative Mat with Grounding Cord

Material: PVC
Dimensions: 50 x 60cm
Thickness: 2mm
Surface resistance: 10e7 10e10Ohm / m²
Charge Cooldown: <0.03sec.
  

 You could cut the mate to the size you need and link the mate to a ground point (other than chassis)
  
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B001IRVCJM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## DecentLevi

_From the Euforia thread_
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> Hi everyone ! Glad to read of everyone's utopia moments with their Elise and tubes. I've no doubt you are enjoying yourselves very much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


untilthen said:


> A more detailed post will have to wait till this evening when I'm back from work.   Any conventional power tubes will do. Both EF80 and EF86 worked very well. Clean and detailed sound with a touch of fullness and quality bass that is the trademark of pentodes driven as strapped triodes.


 
  
 I would be interested especially in seeing in what ways you find these different from the other EL11 / 12's that you've tried? Also have you tried any 'Spez'-ials yet?


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm listening to the 52nd Street album (1978 / FLAC) from Billy Joel on the EL12 Spez + Valvo EL11 combo with HD-600 via Mimby and two USB enhancing components on my Elise. Though just hearing it in recent months with another combo, this time I'm thrilled at how intricate and downright splendid the mastering is on this album - never knew it was recorded this well!! And many of these songs are timeless hits. (does need a slight bass boost / treble reduction on the HD-600's though). Highly recommended for the Elise with Spez or another 'EL13' setup.
  
 There's just something about the quality of old analogue-era recordings. I wish at least some of today's artists would record an album with analogue equipment, or possibly even better: _direct_ to DSD 128x + or MQA, which is something I'm not sure if has ever been done; that is bypassing the film master.


----------



## DecentLevi

Here is great looking deal that just came in for an NOS pair of Spez; it says Tesla is a clone of Telefunken EL12 Spez


----------



## UntilThen

*Summary findings on EF80 and EF86 used as drivers in Elise.*
  
 First of all, these 2 tubes are not identical in constructions. They are quite different. Both are small tube pentodes. EF86 is quite unlike other pentodes. They are specifically designed for audio purposes and exhibit low noise, hum and microphony compared to other pentodes.
  
 If I didn't listen to EF86, I would have thought the EF80 really marvellous sounding. Once you listen to them back to back, you'd pick out that the EF86 just have more details and revealing in the nuances of tone. These tubes are more about tone than gain. That is why you would use them.
  
 The one word that stood out about their tone is CLARITY and it's there in sweet abundance. Not just clear and clean but the tone is sweet. No sound is neutral so I'd place these on the bright side of neutral. It's never fatiguing though. Your ears are just enveloped with sweet clarity.
  
 When I listen to the EF80 and EF86 in La Figaro 339, I couldn't help but find that even mediocre power tubes such as Svetlana 6h13c sounded good. This is repeated in Elise. I've so far use Chatham 6520 and Svetlana 6h13c with excellent results.
  
 All right. How does it compare to EL11 and EL12 or EL12N and EL12. This is important because they are the flavour of the month. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 EF combos are tighter, more precise, great treble extensions and marvellous accompanying low notes with an equally engaging mid-range. EL combos have more layers, more upfront in their presentations. With the EL tubes, you are closer to the musicians while the EF combos will have you seated 2 rows back. There are really not that much differences in all these characteristics between the EL and EF tubes but enough for you discern the differences.
  
 I love both the EL and EF sonic signatures and just find that Elise owners are so fortunate that these tubes works well and sound so marvellous in her. I use T1 in all my evaluations.
  
 Lastly, I tried EF80 and EF86 with EL12 as power tubes but gain drops substantially. I had to turn volume up to 12 - 1pm for a sufficiently loud listening session. Pretty good tone but I decide that it's not a good pairing because I have to turn up the volume so much.
  
 Also with all these tubes, I could turn the volume to max without detecting any interference, with no music playing. They are that quiet.
  
 DL ask if I've use EL12 Spez. No I do not. There's so much more listening with these tubes that I want to focus on. Get more hours in it and also to ensure they are not 'one hit' wonders. EL12 Spez will come eventually. There's no rush for me. Besides I am expecting Euforia to arrive 'soon'.... as soon as some fisherman pick it up from the oceans.


----------



## UntilThen

Indeed nothing wrong with volume at 12 - 1 o'clock but I'm used to loud being 9 to 10am, so anything past noon will seem strange to me... psychologically.


----------



## DecentLevi

I was wondering about the accuracy of the above mentioned seller's notion that the Tesla is the same as the Telefunken EL12 Spez. Further inspection shows obvious differences is labeling, transparency in the mid section, and likely being made in the former Czech. as opposed to Germany; however the shape looks the same. So while I can't say they would sound the same, it's still possible the Tesla could sound good nevertheless. A search for any comparison between the two Spez brands mostly just pointed back to eBay listings, so I wonder if anyone has any better answers.


----------



## HOWIE13

@UntilThen
  
 Appreciate your very helpful report on the EF's. Sounds like the EF86 is the one to go for.
  
 They sound from your  thorough descriptions a bit like some of the ECC88 tubes I've tried in Elise. Clarity and precision, such as with Bugle Boy. Tesla, Tungsram and Mullard.
  
 The EF's are generally cheaper so I am going to try them, just to compare.
 After all I must do something to occupy me while you all wallow in the musical delights awaiting you with Euforia.


----------



## angpsi

@UntilThen which brand are you testing with your EF86? Does it make a difference? They're so cheap I'm inclined to try them out myself, as per @HOWIE13's suggestion.
  
 #EDIT: actually I now find that some species go for $100+. I'm intrigued... (but left poor from my EL spending spree).


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> I was wondering about the accuracy of the above mentioned seller's notion that the Tesla is the same as the Telefunken EL12 Spez. Further inspection shows obvious differences is labeling, transparency in the mid section, and likely being made in the former Czech. as opposed to Germany; however the shape looks the same. So while I can't say they would sound the same, it's still possible the Tesla could sound good nevertheless. A search for any comparison between the two Spez brands mostly just pointed back to eBay listings, so I wonder if anyone has any better answers.


 
 It's impossible to know until you compare them DL.
  
 I suspect what the seller means is that they have the same electronic characteristics as Telefunken and can be used as substitutes in an amplifier, though not necessarily sounding identical.
  
 All I can say is that I've always found Tesla reliable and their 6DJ8 and EF95 equivalents are some of my favourites of their types.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Took a look at EF86 offerings on eBay - there are lots of choices, and the prices are all over the map.
  
 From your research, do you have any recommendation for any specific brand or type of construction?
  
 The EF86 seems to come in many different designations: 6267, 6J32P, 6ZH32P, Z729, 6BK8, 6CF8, 6J8, 6J49P, 6F22, CV2901 - I am getting dizzy.....there probably are more.....
  
 Are all these the same, or are some not identical?
  
 You mentioned Chatham 6520 - do yours have domino plates? Did you try them with the TS5998? I have the Chatham 6AS7G that are said to be same as the 6520 with regular plates but I never liked them for some reason. The TS 5998 are wonderful, though.


----------



## DecentLevi

My heartthrob seems to have stood me up this morning. 'wonder which EF86 brand just may give that right intimacy and finesse to soothe me in the right place... whoops, there I go again seeking social advice on an audiophile form. (LOL) I know I'm not hopeless... hopefully


----------



## pctazhp

> DL ask if I've use EL12 Spez. No I do not. There's so much more listening with these tubes that I want to focus on. Get more hours in it and also to ensure they are not 'one hit' wonders. EL12 Spez will come eventually. *There's no rush for me.* Besides I am expecting Euforia to arrive 'soon'.... as soon as some fisherman pick it up from the oceans.


 
  
 There is rush. You need this:
  
 https://www.facebook.com/nerdbotmedia/videos/615779941919789/


----------



## Frederick Rea

hplobster said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/1320#post_13329164


----------



## mordy

Hi FR, What is the purpose and sonic benefits of an anti static mat?


----------



## mordy

Hi UT, In which way does the EF86 differ from the 6N23P?


----------



## Frederick Rea

mordy said:


> Hi FR, What is the purpose and sonic benefits of an anti static mat?


 
 Hum benefits
 All the influence of static electricity (which in itself emits an RF in the form of Hum) is detrimental to (sound) Tube amplifiers, since they capture external electrical noise
 Some Hi End racks have already this feacture by themselves


----------



## Frederick Rea

May be that someone can tell me the difference in electrical and sound specifications between the EL12 and EL12N valves?


----------



## Wreckgar7

Hi guys, need some help here, ive asked the swedish radiomuseum if they have any EL11 tubes for sale, and the reply was that they have 2 different kinds: 6V DC and 6.3V AC, which one is correct?


----------



## richdytch

The EL12N power / EL3N combo keeps getting smoother and smoother. Having heard things about this combo being bright, I was wary but thought I'd give it a go anyway. That certainly was backed up by the first couple of days' impressions, but has changed a lot. I hadn't used EL3N for some time and I think the pair I picked up out of my box maybe hadn't been burned in much. Definitely a slow burning maturation going on, probably on both tube types. The combo has been switched on maybe 12 hours a day since Sunday - ish. The EL12Ns have now been used for about 70 hours. Doesn't seem like a problem leaving it on (attended) for long periods because the amp's not even getting warm. 
  
 I think the way I'd sum the combo up is that it's just very undistorted.  I've even plugged it into my Temple Audio Bantam Gold, which is only 25 Watts and can sound a little lean with my speakers. But the combo is a very happy one. The Bantam's phenomenally low THD of 0.005% is a complement to the uncoloured nature of the tube combo. Certainly seems to have enough slam for listening in my modestly sized room. Clarity is the order of the day.


----------



## UntilThen

I'll attempt to answer the questions regarding which brands of EF86 to go for and also how different they are to 12AX7, ECC83, 6N23P. So bare with me while I pull up my guess book. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I have only use one pair of EF86 - brand is Mazda Thorn and the 2 tubes are slightly different although I don't hear them different. Oskari says that one is from East Germany (probably RFT) and the other from Russia (probably Svetlana). This is the pair that I'm enjoying right now. They are from Langrex and cheap.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/262360633712?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 However I've been doing some research. EF86 is or was very popular with guitars aficionados with their amps. I have not heard a 12AX7 but according to one user, EF86 sounds warmer and fuller and fatter compared to 12AX7. However that is using EF86 as a pentode but I'm using EF86 as a strapped triode in Elise. Now that is a revelation because I thought EL11, EL12 sounded warmer, fuller and fatter than EF86. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So that leaves us with this scenario. On the scale of warmer, fuller and fatter, EL12 > EF86 > 12AX7.  
  
 Now which brand of EF86 to go for? As with 6SN7, there are many brands of varying prices. It is claimed that GEC EF86 is the best and creamiest. Is that a surprise? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-NOS-NIB-Pair-G-E-C-CV2901-Z729-EF86-6267-Mesh-Plate-Tubes-Valves-GEC-UK-/201614265126?hash=item2ef1258b26:g:YkIAAOSw~gRV3PSY
  
 Fear not though because my Svetlana and RFT EF86 sounded marvellous. You don't have to touch the GEC. There is a post where one user rank GEC, Mullard, Telefunken and wait for it... Valvo and Philips Dario Miniwatt are held in very high regard. As well as Amperex Bugle Boy. 
  
 These designations are all equivalents. The Svetlana EF86 are know as *6J32P / 6zh32P/ EF86 / 6267.*
  
*If you're trying out the EF86, my advice is to get a cheaper Svetlana or RFT and try it out first. Lastly, don't overlook the EF80. Mullard EF80 from Langrex is very cheap and sounds splendid except you'd have to get different adapters.*
  
*Ps.. Mordy I've tried EF86 with TS 5998 and they do sound very good. You don't necessarily need to use Chatham 6520. I think the EF86 goes very well with coke bottle shaped 6as7g rather than the brighter tone of 6080.*


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Now which brand of EF86 to go for? As with 6SN7, there are many brands of varying prices. It is claimed that GEC EF86 is the best and creamiest. Is that a surprise? :bigsmile_face:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-NOS-NIB-Pair-G-E-C-CV2901-Z729-EF86-6267-Mesh-Plate-Tubes-Valves-GEC-UK-/201614265126?hash=item2ef1258b26:g:YkIAAOSw~gRV3PSY




Those seem to be rebrands made by somebody with Philips machinery.


----------



## mordy

The GEC label says "Made For GEC". What would be a likely manufacturer?
  
 Are those real mesh plates or just stamped plates?


----------



## mordy

Hi richdytch,
  
 Patience, patience, and enjoy the trip.
  
 Back in the days when the EL3N was the Tube de Jour the consensus was that it does need upwards of 400 (!) hours to fully break in.


----------



## HPLobster

frederick rea said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/831743/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/1320#post_13329164


 
  
 Ah, I see.... I´m not active in the Euforia-thread yet


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> The EF86 seems to come in many different designations: 6267, 6J32P, 6ZH32P, Z729, 6BK8, 6CF8, 6J8, 6J49P, 6F22, CV2901 - I am getting dizzy.....there probably are more.....
> 
> Are all these the same, or are some not identical?




EF86 Euro type
6267 American number for same
Z729 MOV name for it
6F22 Mazda (UK) equivalent
CV2901 UK government code
6Ж32П aka 6J32P aka 6Zh32P Russian version

Need more research:

6J8 possibly Chinese equivalent (don't confuse wth other 6J8s!)
6BK8 possibly AWV equivalent
6CF8 possibly Mazda (France) equivalent
6J49P ?

And, yes, there are more…


----------



## richdytch

mordy said:


> Hi richdytch,
> 
> Patience, patience, and enjoy the trip.
> 
> Back in the days when the EL3N was the Tube de Jour the consensus was that it does need upwards of 400 (!) hours to fully break in.




I better put my back into it then!


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> The GEC label says "Made For GEC". What would be a likely manufacturer?
> 
> Are those real mesh plates or just stamped plates?




Mullard if UK, otherwise Philips or MBLE or …

I think it's a perforated shield.


----------



## connieflyer

Looks just like the perforated screen on the 6c5.


----------



## mordy

I want a mesh screen! Who made the EF86 with a mesh screen? Maybe h1 knows.....


----------



## UntilThen

I can make meshed potatoes.


----------



## DecentLevi

@UntilThen thanks so much for the EF86 / EF80 impressions and valuable information! I'll be replacing my Elise with a Euforia in coming weeks, so I think I may just wait & see how these perform with the Euforia before taking the plunge. However looks like YOU should be the first one with the chance to try these on the Euforia, so that would be quite interesting to hear what you have to say about their syergy (or not) with the Euforia.
  
 However I would be interested in a pair of these with a moderately dark sound signature, if anyone knows of one?


----------



## DecentLevi

Interesting upgraded cable impressions here with my Elise / LC amp using three heapdhones:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/197776/sennheiser-hd650-impressions-thread/38130#post_13345128


----------



## Wreckgar7

wreckgar7 said:


> Hi guys, need some help here, ive asked the swedish radiomuseum if they have any EL11 tubes for sale, and the reply was that they have 2 different kinds: 6V DC and 6.3V AC, which one is correct?




Anyone?


----------



## UntilThen

Wreckgar it's 6.3v


----------



## UntilThen

DL you won't find a dark sound signature with EF86.


----------



## Wreckgar7

untilthen said:


> Wreckgar it's 6.3v



Great thanks  btw, has anyone tried The tung sol 6080? I got them cheap and really loving them, i like The El12N also but the 6080 paired with EL11 got a really special depth to them


----------



## UntilThen

wreckgar7 said:


> Great thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wreck, I have tried EL11 with most power tubes and it's a good tone. The 6080 that I tried with - Mullard and RCA - both are pretty interesting tones with EL11. Glad you're enjoying your Elise and the EL tubes.
  
 Your feedback is always welcome.


----------



## richdytch

I ordered two Valvo EL12 tubes from different suppliers in Germany on Friday and both arrived this morning. Obviously it's very early days, but at the moment I'd say they sound slightly fuller than the EL12N. No doubt they'll develop for a long time, but at the moment they're sounding very nice with plenty of bass weight - making my little 25 watts of speaker amp sound very meaty. Pleasant detail although at this point not as much air... not as extended into the treble, as the EL12N. I wonder if they'll head a little more in that direction. Still waiting really for the sense of fluidity and depth I'm sure they'll have, to develop. Interesting that at the moment, I still experience a dissonance between female voices on Philippe Hereweghe's Mass in B minor (the third version) which was something I always wanted to get rid of - it was my benchmark for the eradication of distortion. The EL12N managed it straight out of the box, and I'm sure the EL12s will once they've woken up. 
  
 Got another pair of adapters coming from Mrs X, so soon I should be running the RFT EL12Ns as drivers, with the Valvo EL12s as powers. Quite excited to hear how that sounds. Then, I'll just live with the combo for a few weeks and see how I get on.


----------



## UntilThen

Rich, EL12N is more sparkling than EL12. Together they make for a very interesting lively tone. I love it and so does Howie. Just listening to your descriptions, I think you will like it too. 
  
 Now this is again different. More sparkling, the EF86 will make any power tube come alive. Paired here with the cheap GE 6AS7GA, quality sound has never been more affordable in Elise. As I said before, treble extensions on the EF86 is superb and now with more burn in, it's taken on a more meaty tone too. Not as meaty as EL12 but a nice good weight. Who knows what will happen when the tube has more hours in it. I sure hope it doesn't become King Kong.


----------



## Frederick Rea

For turntable fans:
 https://www.facebook.com/sempre.audio.at/photos/a.10150171533072110.341825.94997772109/10154915245167110/?type=3&theater


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Wreck, I have tried EL11 with most power tubes and it's a good tone. The 6080 that I tried with - Mullard and RCA - both are pretty interesting tones with EL11. Glad you're enjoying your Elise and the EL tubes.
> 
> Your feedback is always welcome.


 
 Great work discovering and describing the new EF80/86 tubes-sounds like they will have a place in our collection of recomendables, especially EF86. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've bought a couple of EF86 RFT's and will also purchase a pair of so called 'mesh plate' ones too, maybe Mullards. They mostly look like mesh shields though.
  
 Will have a good look once I have them in my hands.


----------



## HOWIE13

wreckgar7 said:


> Great thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep, those Tung-Sol's are my favourite 6068 of all the ones I've tried. They for me combine clarity of tone with warmth and richness. They are generally very quiet too.
  
 I have not yet tried them with EL11 tubes yet though.
  
 Have fun experimenting.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Great work discovering and describing the new EF80/86 tubes-sounds like they will have a place in our collection of recomendables, especially EF86.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Read this for best EF86 manufacturer's recommendation. Guy name Oliver seems to know what he's talking about. 
 http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.com/topic/3849602/EF86-manufacturer-recommendations#.WMrDRjuGObg
  
 However I wouldn't worry too much about the expensive NOS brands first. Try the EF86 first and see if you like the tone. The Svetlana and RFT EF86 that I have sounds just so good to me. Going through my repertorie of songs and the rich and detailed sound is a joy to listen to.
  
 A word of caution. The EF86 tubes on the 1st 2 days sounded bright and Elise's auto bias was working overtime to settle it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There were moments in those early listening sessions where I thought I heard slight distortions and at times low volume even with 6as7g power tubes. This has vanished now and all I get is a glorious tone. I'm still rolling with EF86 and GE 6as7ga. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This will be the last few days of tube rolling on Elise for me before Euforia lands. Anticipation, anticipations......


----------



## richdytch

untilthen said:


> Rich, EL12N is more sparkling than EL12. Together they make for a very interesting lively tone. I love it and so does Howie. Just listening to your descriptions, I think you will like it too.
> 
> Now this is again different. More sparkling, the EF86 will make any power tube come alive. Paired here with the cheap GE 6AS7GA, quality sound has never been more affordable in Elise. As I said before, treble extensions on the EF86 is superb and now with more burn in, it's taken on a more meaty tone too. Not as meaty as EL12 but a nice good weight. Who knows what will happen when the tube has more hours in it. I sure hope it doesn't become King Kong.


 
  
 Hi UT, very interesting. I'm always up for affordable ways to get good results. Right now, seriously enjoying the Valvo EL12 with EL3N... and for the money it's cost it's quite amazing. I'll definitely be acquiring another few pairs of EL12/EL12N over the coming months, as a stash for future-protection. Might even try some EF86 along the way, but for this month, I am spent up.


----------



## Frederick Rea

A little out of the current context but of equal interest for those who demand very good music: referring to MQA in CD format:
 https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/03/16/mqa-to-be-released-on-cd/


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> Hi UT, very interesting. I'm always up for affordable ways to get good results. Right now, seriously enjoying the Valvo EL12 with EL3N... and for the money it's cost it's quite amazing. I'll definitely be acquiring another few pairs of EL12/EL12N over the coming months, as a stash for future-protection. Might even try some EF86 along the way, but for this month, I am spent up.


 
  
 I'll be doing a glorious review of light bulbs soon. To steer others away from EL and EF tubes so as to preserve the dwindling supply of those tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Glad you're enjoying EL3N and EL12 but you'll find the EL12N and EL12 more than a subtle change.


----------



## Frederick Rea

richdytch said:


> I ordered two Valvo EL12 tubes from different suppliers in Germany on Friday and both arrived this morning. Obviously it's very early days, but at the moment I'd say they sound slightly fuller than the EL12N. No doubt they'll develop for a long time, but at the moment they're sounding very nice with plenty of bass weight - making my little 25 watts of speaker amp sound very meaty. Pleasant detail although at this point not as much air... not as extended into the treble, as the EL12N. I wonder if they'll head a little more in that direction. Still waiting really for the sense of fluidity and depth I'm sure they'll have, to develop. Interesting that at the moment, I still experience a dissonance between female voices on Philippe Hereweghe's Mass in B minor (the third version) which was something I always wanted to get rid of - it was my benchmark for the eradication of distortion. The EL12N managed it straight out of the box, and I'm sure the EL12s will once they've woken up.
> 
> Got another pair of adapters coming from Mrs X, so soon I should be running the RFT EL12Ns as drivers, with the Valvo EL12s as powers. Quite excited to hear how that sounds. Then, I'll just live with the combo for a few weeks and see how I get on.


 
 Very interesting and a very good analysis description. Waiting for more on this


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/enWoByIcXt4[/VIDEO]

_Pohjois-Karjala_


----------



## HPLobster

richdytch said:


> I ordered two Valvo EL12 tubes from different suppliers in Germany on Friday and both arrived this morning. Obviously it's very early days, but at the moment I'd say they sound slightly fuller than the EL12N. No doubt they'll develop for a long time, but at the moment they're sounding very nice with plenty of bass weight - making my little 25 watts of speaker amp sound very meaty. Pleasant detail although at this point not as much air... not as extended into the treble, as the EL12N. I wonder if they'll head a little more in that direction. Still waiting really for the sense of fluidity and depth I'm sure they'll have, to develop. Interesting that at the moment, I still experience a dissonance between female voices on Philippe Hereweghe's Mass in B minor (the third version) which was something I always wanted to get rid of - it was my benchmark for the eradication of distortion. The EL12N managed it straight out of the box, and I'm sure the EL12s will once they've woken up.
> 
> Got another pair of adapters coming from Mrs X, so soon I should be running the RFT EL12Ns as drivers, with the Valvo EL12s as powers. Quite excited to hear how that sounds. Then, I'll just live with the combo for a few weeks and see how I get on.


 

 May I ask how long you´ve been waiting in total for your adapters from Mrs. X to arrive?


----------



## richdytch

hplobster said:


> May I ask how long you´ve been waiting in total for your adapters from Mrs. X to arrive?




Hi HP, the first lot took two and a half weeks in total, but they were post at this end by the royal mail - delivered to the wrong street - but were recovered. 

The new lot were ordered a week ago.


----------



## HPLobster

richdytch said:


> Hi HP, the first lot took two and a half weeks in total, but they were post at this end by the royal mail - delivered to the wrong street - but were recovered.
> 
> The new lot were ordered a week ago.


 
 Hi rd, ... I see, well, I ordered mine on February 26th and they are still in Hongkong...maybe they had to actually produce some more samples first 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Love reading about your journey with the ELs btw, keep those posts coming


----------



## HPLobster

decentlevi said:


> Interesting upgraded cable impressions here with my Elise / LC amp using three heapdhones:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/197776/sennheiser-hd650-impressions-thread/38130#post_13345128


 
  
 meh...certainly a very interesting read, but as far as I´m concerned, I hesitate to believe in cable upgrades. I´ve upgraded my USB-cable to a ForzaAudioworks-silver-cable and my jack to cinch - cable to an Audioquest "solid-perfect-surface-copper" one .... aaaand heard no change at all, 0,0%. Maybe it´s just me or maybe the upgrade wasn´t "significant" enough or maybe just call me a cable-heretic but I´m very reluctant with regard to future headphone-cable-upgrades now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 A few words on another topic: Would you mind sharing just a few impressions about the Liquid Carbon sound-signature compared to the Elise? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just curious, especially since you seem to own them for a longer period now so there is no "new toy" - bias involved....


----------



## mordy

Hi HP,
  
 I am a big cable skeptic, but I was really surprised that the $10 upgraded A/Cpower  cord that CF recommended made a real difference in my system. The bass and treble has more punch and definition with this cord.
  
 Re shipping from China/Hon Kong it is hit or miss for me in the US. Sometimes a package comes in 5 days, and sometimes in 5 weeks, not to mention a few that never arrived....I would say the average is 2-3 weeks, except for that there is no average time......


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> I want a mesh screen! Who made the EF86 with a mesh screen? Maybe h1 knows.....




The EF86 is probably too modern a design for a woven mesh. That said, the MOV Z729 must have the finest mesh. I took as close a look as I could. The mesh is so fine that it's difficult to see how it was made.


----------



## richdytch

hplobster said:


> Hi rd, ... I see, well, I ordered mine on February 26th and they are still in Hongkong...maybe they had to actually produce some more samples first :rolleyes:
> 
> Love reading about your journey with the ELs btw, keep those posts coming




Hi HP, I was tracking my first pair for quite a while via Hong Kong mail, and it constantly said they'd not left HK. But when I tracked them with Royal Mail, it said they were actually in this country. So it might be worth trying your tracking number with your local mail service. Good luck, hope they arrive soon!


----------



## HOWIE13

richdytch said:


> Hi HP, I was tracking my first pair for quite a while via Hong Kong mail, and it constantly said they'd not left HK. But when I tracked them with Royal Mail, it said they were actually in this country. So it might be worth trying your tracking number with your local mail service. Good luck, hope they arrive soon!


 
 Exactly the same happened to me.
  
 I waited 14 days and the tracking said it was still in HK, and there was nothing on the Royal Mail tracking site either.  I emailed MrsX to see if she could discover what was happening and later that same morning the package arrived. I was very embarrassed. 
  
 My extensive, and very expensive experience LOL, is that it can take from 5 days to 5 weeks. It's my impression that Hong Kong post has been generally slower than China Post for some reason, but it probably varies from time to time.


----------



## angpsi

Hey @UntilThen, have you found any particular differences between Tidal MQA and Audirvana MQA? Just wondering.
  
 In reference to a prior comment you made, I remembered I A/B'd the same album with Tidal and a physical cd on my stereo system and I found them quite identical. So you're probably right; my remark about hi-res files must have had something to do with that I was basically—unintentionally—auditioning lots of audiophile recordings that day.
  
 On a different note, I found MQA to be very susceptible to the sound engineering of the album (e.g. oddly enough old Madonna albums sounded lovely, whereas Bruno Mars sounded very compressed—and thus borderline unbearable—to my ears).


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi I'll answer you after I finish my scotch.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> @angpsi I'll answer you after I finish my scotch.


 

 Cool, I'll be waiting!


----------



## DecentLevi

angpsi said:


> Hey @UntilThen
> ...On a different note, I found MQA to be very susceptible to the sound engineering of the album (e.g. oddly enough old Madonna albums sounded lovely, whereas Bruno Mars sounded very compressed—and thus borderline unbearable—to my ears).




Of course, precisely what I would expect: too many so-called popular artists of today master their albums digitally with the iPod weilding earbud MP3 connoisseur in mind, whereas in the good old 80's and before they actually used analogue equipment and paid more attention to fidelity. Though a well mastered digital can be done right too.

With Good enough systems you can start to notice poorly recorded albums. Though I have heard Apple products actually use a good internal DAC.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hey @UntilThen, have you found any particular differences between Tidal MQA and Audirvana MQA? Just wondering.
> 
> In reference to a prior comment you made, I remembered I A/B'd the same album with Tidal and a physical cd on my stereo system and I found them quite identical. So you're probably right; my remark about hi-res files must have had something to do with that I was basically—unintentionally—auditioning lots of audiophile recordings that day.
> 
> On a different note, I found MQA to be very susceptible to the sound engineering of the album (e.g. oddly enough old Madonna albums sounded lovely, whereas Bruno Mars sounded very compressed—and thus borderline unbearable—to my ears).


 

 Seriously I stop being too obsessed with MQA now. If a song is well recorded, whether it's in Tidal MQA or Audirvana as a flac file or my 24/96k CD 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 or even the plastic vinyl, it will titillate my ears.
  
 I'll present 2 songs that I reckon are very well recorded. I have both on good quality CD. The first is 2 golden acoustic guitars and the golden voice of Allan Taylor.
  

  
 The second is Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pigeon .... pigeons comes to mind a lot recently. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is actual CD that I have.


----------



## UntilThen

This is a Chesky CD that I have when I was keen on car audio competition. Listen to the things to hear in Spanish Harlem.


----------



## UntilThen

BUT who cares about audiophile sound. I just want to hear Norah 'live'.


----------



## pctazhp

I haven't had time for much listening the last couple of days. And I have given up trying to keep up with EF86, Octopusy and all that. Plus the excitement is now shifting to Euforia thread.
  
 But this morning I have been listening to Bimby/Elise/EL11ST/EL12ST/HD800S. It is so wonderful. Sparkling highs but not exaggerated, unnatural or fatiguing. Vocals with flesh and full sounding instruments. Great soundstage. Controlled, natural bass that is perfect for my tastes. Overall, highly musical and engaging.
  
 So long live Elise


----------



## connieflyer

Glad you're getting back to normal whatever that is PCT. Course your normal is probably abnormal for everyone else but we'll take whatever we can get with you


----------



## Oskari

My problem with the EL12N: can't get black background. It's not loud but I know it's there. Well, more troubleshooting. :mad:


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Glad you're getting back to *normal whatever that is PCT*. Course your normal is probably abnormal for everyone else but we'll take whatever we can get with you


 

 Normal???? Coming from the same person who said putting Euforia on washing machine would give clean sound?????


----------



## UntilThen

I really love the tone of EF86 now with ge 6as7ga. Who would have known that the plain vanilla GE power tube is making a comeback for me.
  
 EF86 has the vitality and energy in it's sonics to elicit a big smile from your face. I'm spending more time with my Elise now than ever before.
  
 I'm going to pick up another pair of EF86.


----------



## Oskari

Thanks a lot, UT! 

I have now ordered the EF86 adapters. At least I already have the tubes.

Here's something for you to research: E80F.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> Thanks a lot, UT!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good. You won't regret it.
  
 E80F (no relation to EF80...) - though it's even LOWER transconductance... will last forever. This is EF86 equivalent. 
  
 Telefunken EF806S is the Buggati of EF86 but at 3 times the price, it's probably only marginally better.... so stick to EF86... unless you're Bill Gates.
  
 For the budget minded the Soviet version isn't that bad - especially for the price. You can easily pickup pairs of them for $20.

 Japanese EF86s - notably NEC and Hitachi are supposed to have great sound.
  
 For the better EF86s, please read Oliver notes (even though he's talking about using EF86 in mics). He reckons Telefunken is the best with GEC and Mullards matching or even outdoing it. Valvo is supposed to be good but grainer. Amperex Bugle Boy will cost your left nuts and Philips Dario Miniwatts is good too. 
  
 ....BUT
  
 ... for me, an el cheapo pair of Mazda Thorn EF86 from Langrex is stirring excitements in me. Really good sound with any coke bottle shape power tubes. Heck I even pop in 7236 one night and was very amazed with the results.


----------



## UntilThen

In 1953 before I was born (yup I'm a spring chicken), Mullard design the EF86. You can read all about it here.
  
 http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0113.htm


----------



## HPLobster

angpsi said:


> Hey @UntilThen, have you found any particular differences between Tidal MQA and Audirvana MQA? Just wondering.
> 
> In reference to a prior comment you made, I remembered I A/B'd the same album with Tidal and a physical cd on my stereo system and I found them quite identical. So you're probably right; my remark about hi-res files must have had something to do with that I was basically—unintentionally—auditioning lots of audiophile recordings that day.
> 
> On a different note, I found MQA to be very susceptible to the sound engineering of the album (e.g. *oddly enough old Madonna albums sounded lovely*, whereas Bruno Mars sounded very compressed—and thus borderline unbearable—to my ears).


 
 Couldn´t agree more. I recently listened to Ray Of Light and Music while "testing" my LCDs and they sounded amazing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...production on these is STELLAR!
 Wonder what happened to William Orbit...?


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> This is a Chesky CD that I have when I was keen on car audio competition. Listen to the things to hear in Spanish Harlem.




 The song is prominently featured on many reference-CDs and it really fulfils its role in this regard. But I simply can´t stand the way she is singing those lines, it´s like she is on the brink of dying because of anemia - completely lifeless


----------



## HPLobster

richdytch said:


> Hi HP, I was tracking my first pair for quite a while via Hong Kong mail, and it constantly said they'd not left HK. But when I tracked them with Royal Mail, it said they were actually in this country. So it might be worth trying your tracking number with your local mail service. Good luck, hope they arrive soon!


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Exactly the same happened to me.
> 
> I waited 14 days and the* tracking said it was still in HK*, and there was nothing on the Royal Mail tracking site either.  I emailed MrsX to see if she could discover what was happening and later that same morning the package arrived. I was very embarrassed.
> 
> My extensive, and very expensive experience LOL, is that it can take from 5 days to 5 weeks. It's my impression that Hong Kong post has been generally slower than China Post for some reason, but it probably varies from time to time.


 
  
 I just checked with DHL (= main German postal service), they also say that it´s still in HK. However I believe it could just be due to the fact that this simply is the last location where the package was scanned on its progress. Sometimes they won´t even get scanned right away after arriving in the country of destination until they are sorted for further transport...dunno...
  
 But thank you for cheering me up, guys


----------



## HPLobster

Since I´m currently the only member arround, I decided to perform a little monologue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> Hi HP,
> 
> I am a big cable skeptic, but I was really surprised that the $10 upgraded A/Cpower  cord that CF recommended made a real difference in my system. The bass and treble has more punch and definition with this cord.
> 
> Re shipping from China/Hon Kong it is hit or miss for me in the US. Sometimes a package comes in 5 days, and sometimes in 5 weeks, not to mention a few that never arrived....I would say the average is 2-3 weeks, except for that there is no average time......


 
  
 Hi mordy, I certainly read about this power cord (I absorb EVERYTHING in this thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







), but sadly I couldn´t find a counterpart sold in Germany, so for now I´m just keeping it in mind for later...


----------



## UntilThen

Lobster I'll find you a rap version of Spanish Harlem.


----------



## UntilThen

Check out my post of power cords from China. Problem is it takes a long time to get to you. I still haven't received mine !!!


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Lobster I'll find you a rap version of Spanish Harlem.


 











  
  
 edit: not exactly rap but things can´t get any worse:


----------



## DecentLevi

Darn, that was fairly painless. $20 each for EF86 Mazda Thorn, and $10 each adapter from Xuling... not to mention the adapters are gold _(well easily worn off brass coating)_, and the tubes from Yitry (Langrex) look in pristine condition. Guess these enigmatic looking mesh plates will be the closest I may get to H1's mesh plates at least. Just taking a chance these will sound as good on the Euforia as they're reported to on the Elise.
  
 PS- I've been wondering if that auto bias memory may have more to do with tube 'biasing' than the Elise, given the apparent 'memory' even long after different combos.


----------



## UntilThen

I had Elise with Mullard EF80 and Bendix 6080wb and La Figaro 339 with Siemens EF80 and RCA 6080 on. My son came home and was intrigued by my growing collections of tube amps.
  
 I ask him to listen with the T1 on both amps. He pick Miles Davis and John Mayer from Tidal Hifi and started listening. When he had finished I ask him what he thinks. He said that both amps sounded very good on the T1. He further mentioned that La Figaro has the wider soundstage but that Elise was more focused and clearer. 
  
 I agree with him. That's what I hear too and I love both amps.


----------



## angpsi

hplobster said:


> Couldn´t agree more. I recently listened to Ray Of Light and Music while "testing" my LCDs and they sounded amazing :atsmile: ...production on these is STELLAR!
> Wonder what happened to William Orbit...?


This is a very educational read which I bumped into just now (courtesy of an acclaimed Greek sound engineer / audiophile who I know personally): http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cds-may-actually-sound-better-than-vinyl-5352162


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> This is a very educational read which I bumped into just now (courtesy of an acclaimed Greek sound engineer / audiophile who I know personally): http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cds-may-actually-sound-better-than-vinyl-5352162


 
  
 Please ..... don't start this debate. Depends on who you ask. Ask Michael Fremer and he will tell you vinyl sounds better. 
 http://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/06/exclusive-interview-with-michael-fremer.html
  
 If someone comes to me and say that cassettes sounds the best. I'd say 'Good on ya !!!' 
  
 Because 'better' is subjective.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> This is a very educational read which I bumped into just now (courtesy of an acclaimed Greek sound engineer / audiophile who I know personally): http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cds-may-actually-sound-better-than-vinyl-5352162


 
  
_"I think some people interpret the lack of top end [on vinyl] and interpret an analog type of distortion as warmth,"_
  
I guess this is what tubes do to digital sound- give a more analogue 'vinyl' type sound.
  
The difference is with a good tube amp and cans it's possible to achieve an extended top end too and so have the best of both worlds: warmth, together with extended frequency responses, at both ends.


----------



## UntilThen

decentlevi said:


> Darn, that was fairly painless. $20 each for EF86 Mazda Thorn, and $10 each adapter from Xuling... not to mention the adapters are gold _(well easily worn off brass coating)_, and the tubes from Yitry (Langrex) look in pristine condition. Guess these enigmatic looking mesh plates will be the closest I may get to H1's mesh plates at least. Just taking a chance these will sound as good on the Euforia as they're reported to on the Elise.
> 
> PS- I've been wondering if that auto bias memory may have more to do with tube 'biasing' than the Elise, given the apparent 'memory' even long after different combos.


 
  
 Now where is my disclaimer clause? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Good luck DL. Hope your Elise stays in one piece after trying EF86. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Now I'll show you my golden nuggets.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Please ..... don't start this debate. Depends on who you ask. Ask Michael Fremer and he will tell you vinyl sounds better.
> http://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/06/exclusive-interview-with-michael-fremer.html
> 
> If someone comes to me and say that cassettes sounds the best. I'd say 'Good on ya !!!'
> ...


 
 Well it takes our minds off the Elise/Euforia debate over the weekend, LOL.
  
 I chuckled at his statement;
  
I met a violinist for the Vienna Philharmonic recently who is a vinyl fan. He says half the string players in the symphony are. Why? Vinyl better reproduces string tone. 
  
 But he fails to mention the other half of the VPO string players who are not vinyl fans.
  
 Anyway,  I agree it's very much a subjective personal thing. 
  
 Personally speaking I hate background noise, pops and scratching, especially in quiet passages in Classical, which is a major reason digital music has been a boon for me.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Personally speaking I hate background noise, pops and scratching, especially in quiet passages in Classical, which is a major reason digital music has been a boon for me.


 
  
 If you attend a 'live' classical session and someone has a coughing fit, there's nothing much you can do, aside from choking him into silence. Some noise just make it more real... more human.


----------



## UntilThen

Elise with Mullard EF80 and GE 6as7GA sounds so good I've been listening the whole day. The high end sparkle and the bass it has developed, is sleep depriving. Be warn guys. If you can't sleep, don't blame me.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> If you attend a 'live' classical session and someone has a coughing fit, there's nothing much you can do, aside from choking him into silence. Some noise just make it more real... more human.


 
  
 That's why I don't go to live concerts so much now. I get much better sound in the comfort of home-and the best seat in the house too. Only the wife's hair dryer occasionally annoys me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I was at a concert not so long ago listening to the 'New World' Symphony' and just at the beginning of the slow movement where the cor anglais starts it's beautiful lugubrious solo the man sitting behind me had a coughing fit.
  
 My nerves were jarred all evening-absolutely awful experience. Never want a repeat of that again.
  
 Here's the wonderful aforementioned Vienna Philharmonic with the legendary Herbert von Karajan, mercifully without coughing


----------



## UntilThen

That's a great symphony. Love it. I have not played my Karajan Beethoven's 9th symphony on the LP set much.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> That's a great symphony. Love it. I have not played my Karajan Beethoven's 9th symphony on the LP set much.


 
 Beethoven's 9th will be most appropriate music to evaluate Euforia. A great musical and emotional experience.


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> Beethoven's 9th will be most appropriate music to evaluate Euforia. A great musical and emotional experience.


 
  
 I have the box set. 9 symphonies on 7 LPs. Need to find time to listen to it on Euforia.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Elise with Mullard EF80 and GE 6as7GA sounds so good I've been listening the whole day. The high end sparkle and the bass it has developed, is sleep depriving. Be warn guys. If you can't sleep, don't blame me.


 

 Man, you're gonna have us sailing on a completely new trip...  Did you notice that Wege sells those coveted silver shield TFs?
  
 Regarding the article I mentioned, the important part for me is exactly that it all eventually comes down to a preferred sound signature:


> _(...) Many audio engineers disagree. Scott Metcalfe, for example, says that recording to analog tape isn't any purer than recording music digitally. But the distortion and pitch variation that analog tape adds to the recording are preferred by some artists and audiences._
> 
> _"I think there are few people who would tell you that recording classical music to analog tape has any benefit at all," Metcalfe says. But for some artists, he says — particularly in rock — those layers of distortion are preferable._


 
  Quote:


> _Ludwig says he mastered White's Lazaretto on analog tape not because it's a better way to master but because "it's what [White] wanted."_
> 
> _"For many world-class mixers," Ludwig says, "mixing to analog tape has no advantages if what comes out of the console is exactly what you want."_


 


> _"But if you say the whole experience — just like smoking cigars with friends — [is better], well, do it. Enjoy smoking cigars with friends, and drink beer and brandy and enjoy listening to an old-fashioned record player. But don't say the sound is better._
> 
> _"You may say it sounds better to you. That's OK. That's a subjective matter."_


 
  
 Of course, the reproduction chain also plays its part. 


> _ _
> _Clearmountain and Ludwig say that early analog-to-digital converters had an industrial sound, which made CDs sound brittle. But when Apogee Electronics (...) developed the first high-quality converters in 1985, the sound came into focus._
> _"It wasn't until CDs actually started to sound good [that I went]: 'That's what it sounded like. That's what I remember doing in the studio,'" Clearmountain says._


 
  
 As far as I'm concerned, even live music reproduction can equally be considered as artificial, as well as natural. For example, how does the acoustic treatment of a music hall—or a listening room—affect the perceived sound? One can even argue that some performances are 'tuned', or even written, according to the hall they are intended for (see, e.g., David Byrne's TED talk).
  
 I found the article educational exactly in this regard; and actually this is why I used @HPLobster's post about sound production as a reference.
  
 P.S. Similar to my explorations with tubes (i.e. the Elise), I am gradually becoming interested in playing around with vinyl. Haven't decided whether it's a vice or a virtue. Solid state & digital seemed much more of a straight deal, and in a way more agnostic to personal tuning apart from choosing the 'right' combo in the first place.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> I have the box set. 9 symphonies on 7 LPs. Need to find time to listen to it on Euforia.


 
 How wonderful- could be a life changing experience.


----------



## Frederick Rea

untilthen said:


> If you attend a 'live' classical session and *someone has a coughing fit*, there's nothing much you can do, aside from choking him into silence. Some noise just make it more real... more human.


 
 The most annoying thing on vinyl records are the scratches. Those who have auditory memory will have as part of the orchestra another element that plays "crack" every time you play it. Will be an integral part of the disc. It is not the same as coughing in a live concert (ever and forever) always one or more times in a random and unpredictable way


----------



## pctazhp

Vinyl vs digital, tube vs solid state, Elise vs La Figaro 339 - tales as old as time.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I had Elise with Mullard EF80 and Bendix 6080wb and La Figaro 339 with Siemens EF80 and RCA 6080 on. *My son came home and was intrigued by my growing collections of tube amps.*
> 
> I ask him to listen with the T1 on both amps. He pick Miles Davis and John Mayer from Tidal Hifi and started listening. When he had finished I ask him what he thinks. He said that both amps sounded very good on the T1. He further mentioned that La Figaro has the wider soundstage but that Elise was more focused and clearer.
> 
> I agree with him. That's what I hear too and I love both amps.


 
 The entire world is intrigued.


----------



## connieflyer

They should be intrigued. The story of beauty and the beast was written about Sue and I, I don't suppose I have to tell you which was which!


----------



## UntilThen

frederick rea said:


> The most annoying thing on vinyl records are the scratches. Those who have auditory memory will have as part of the orchestra another element that plays "crack" every time you play it. Will be an integral part of the disc. It is not the same as coughing in a live concert (ever and forever) always one or more times in a random and unpredictable way


 
  
 When an LP has bad scratches it's time to toss it away, that's what you do with a humming tube. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 We're spoilt by the digital medium. It's gotten to the stage where it's so good, we take it for granted. Select any song from your vast collection of flac or hi-res files and press play and away you go. 20 secs into the track, if you change your mind, select another song, life couldn't be easier.
  
 For some, the sheer experience of pulling out a LP from it's cover, flip it in your hands like a maestro. scan the shining surface and place it on the platter with the precision of an expert dart player, start the spin, place the dust pickup gadget over it and give it a light brush, lower your stylus on a little pad to remove any dust, finally lowering the tonearm and stylus expertly on the grove, walk back to your favourite armchair and enjoy....


----------



## connieflyer

I miss doing that sometimes it was all part of the process of listening. It was and is to this day pretty cool. Thanks for sharing now go back to hitting play!


----------



## Frederick Rea

untilthen said:


> When an LP has bad scratches it's time to toss it away, that's what you do with a humming tube.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
*totally agree*. The same goes for tube rolling


----------



## UntilThen

After several days with EF86 and Svetlana 6h13c on Elise, I went back to the stock driver Tong Sol 6sn7gtb re-issue with Svetlana 6h13c and was shocked at how dark and muddy it sounded. It took me a full minute to readjust to the sound. Nice thumping bass but it was just too warm, bothering on darkness.


----------



## HPLobster

Since the cable CF recommended sadly isn´t available with European voltage, I have placed an order for this one here: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=201181659099 
 Very curious to see what will come of it


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Since the cable CF recommended sadly isn´t available with European voltage, I have placed an order for this one here: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=201181659099
> Very curious to see what will come of it


 
  
 Keep that for the kettle and buy this instead.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/40th-Anniversary-Edition-EU-ver-accuphase-power-cord-EU-AC-power-cable-2m/152476548167?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Dcfab8ff2947c4e64b801589f0c31f103%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D222309828074


----------



## HPLobster

angpsi said:


> As far as I'm concerned, *even live music reproduction can equally be considered as artificial, as well as natural. For example, how does the acoustic treatment of a music hall—or a listening room—affect the perceived sound?* One can even argue that some performances are 'tuned', or even written, according to the hall they are intended for (see, e.g., David Byrne's TED talk).
> 
> I found the article educational exactly in this regard; and actually this is why I used @HPLobster's post about sound production as a reference.
> 
> P.S. Similar to my explorations with tubes (i.e. the Elise), I am gradually becoming interested in playing around with vinyl. Haven't decided whether it's a vice or a virtue. Solid state & digital seemed much more of a straight deal, and in a way more agnostic to personal tuning apart from choosing the 'right' combo in the first place.


 
  
 Sergiu Celibidache is my favourite conductor of all time. I was fortunate to meet him once when I was very young, because my mother (who is a violinist) was on friendly terms with him. I also am friends with Günther Specovius, a famous journalist who interviewed him many times (one of those interviews even is part of the Bruckner-collection for EMI) and who produced a feature film about him, he is living here in Hamburg actually.
  
 Celibidache, Specovius and also other musicians even today are - musical achievements aside of course - actually disregarding Karajan because he was such a "sell out" considering recordings back in the days. Celibidache was always of the passionate opinion that such a thing as a live music reproduction could never be achieved. As a Buddhist he claimed that the realms of music and technology simply cannot be made compatible, since in Engineering all in all it´s always about Yes or No, but in the musical world, it´s ultimately only about one element: the truth... which can be a very volatile thing that´s not even captured most of the time during live events... I know this is utterly philosophical, but I often think about this when I´m listening to one of his records, or when I attend an actual live concert.  
 He vehemently refused to be recorded himself btw and if it wasn´t for his own son, who organized many recordings to be done covertly actually (true story
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), most of his recordings would not exist.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Keep that for the kettle and buy this instead.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/40th-Anniversary-Edition-EU-ver-accuphase-power-cord-EU-AC-power-cable-2m/152476548167?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Dcfab8ff2947c4e64b801589f0c31f103%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D222309828074


 

 I might just as well go for Audioquest again, but I won´t this time. No more spending on snake oil.  
  
 Oehlbach is also a "dedicated HiFi-cable-company" but at least it´s cheap.


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> I might just as well go for Audioquest again, but I won´t this time. No more spending on snake oil.
> 
> Oehlbach is also a "dedicated HiFi-cable-company" but at least it´s cheap.


 

 Messing with you. Off course Oehibach is ok.   I have not heard of Oehibach though.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Messing with you. Off course Oehibach is ok.   I have not heard of Oehibach though.


 






 You got me on this one...
 I really thought you were serious there


----------



## UntilThen

Goodbye Chuck. Thanks for the music. You are a legend.


----------



## Indigo Bob

Hello,
  
 I was wondering if this Amp was as good as the reviews say it is.  It seems it will be in my price range soon And I was looking to get serious with Tube amps.
  
 I wanted something with a black background and good warm tube sound.
  
 I was wondering if someone had any feedback cuz Tube amps are kind of difficult to shop for, well at least for me,


----------



## UntilThen

indigo bob said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was wondering if this Amp was as good as the reviews say it is.  It seems it will be in my price range soon And I was looking to get serious with Tube amps.
> 
> ...


 

 Hello Bob and welcome. Believe me, Elise is better than good. I love her so much I'm even getting her upgrade - the Euforia.
  
 You want tube amp sound that is refined and articulate, this is it. With a fast tempo, it's a polished performer.
  
 It's good enough for top flight headphones such as HD800 or T1. You will never need to upgrade again. Just spend your money on a good DAC or turntable whichever road you choose.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Indigo Bob

untilthen said:


> Hello Bob and welcome. Believe me, Elise is better than good. I love her so much I'm even getting her upgrade - the Euforia.
> 
> You want tube amp sound that is refined and articulate, this is it. With a fast tempo, it's a polished performer.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you so much.
  
 The language behind this amp really catches the eye and your enthusiasm is enough to wipe off my wish list and write this in.
  
 I plan on getting the Campfire Audio Vegas for this.  How would it do with IEM's?


----------



## UntilThen

indigo bob said:


> Thank you so much.
> 
> The language behind this amp really catches the eye and your enthusiasm is enough to wipe off my wish list and write this in.
> 
> I plan on getting the Campfire Audio Vegas for this.  How would it do with IEM's?


 

 Holy moly that Vegas is one serious IEM. At 17.5 ohms and 102db I really don't know how it will do with Elise, to be honest.
  
 Although I was able to get this el cheapo Klipsch earbuds and the V-Monk plus to work with Elise. Most of us are users of dynamic open headphones such as the top end Sennheisers and Beyers. A few use Planar Magnetics but I've yet to find someone getting Elise solely for an expensive IEM.


----------



## Indigo Bob

untilthen said:


> Holy moly that Vegas is one serious IEM. At 17.5 ohms and 102db I really don't know how it will do with Elise, to be honest.
> 
> Although I was able to get this el cheapo Klipsch earbuds and the V-Monk plus to work with Elise. Most of us are users of dynamic open headphones such as the top end Sennheisers and Beyers. A few use Planar Magnetics but I've yet to find someone getting Elise solely for an expensive IEM.


 

 Do you have any recommendations for Tube sound for an IEM like the Vegas?
  
 The guys who make Campfire Audio make Alo Audio, which makes portable tube amplifiers (Alo continental v5), and some good stuff, but at the cost of them, I figured I might as well just try out a desktop amp, and was looking for something that had a black background and warm tube sound....   Otherwise, I might try and stick with the Alo continental v5 instead.  I just liked the idea of having something that I could tube roll with.
  
 Yah, the Vegas are unique.  I never intended to buy any quality tube amp until I listened to them at Canjam New York.


----------



## UntilThen

indigo bob said:


> Do you have any recommendations for Tube sound for an IEM like the Vegas?
> 
> The guys who make Campfire Audio make Alo Audio, which makes portable tube amplifiers (Alo continental v5), and some good stuff, but at the cost of them, I figured I might as well just try out a desktop amp, and was looking for something that had a black background and warm tube sound....   Otherwise, I might try and stick with the Alo continental v5 instead.  I just liked the idea of having something that I could tube roll with.
> 
> Yah, the Vegas are unique.  I never intended to buy any quality tube amp until I listened to them at Canjam New York.


 
  
 If you want tube for your Vegas, it's best to pick an amp that will drive IEM well... especially considering you are looking at a TOTL IEM.
  
 Open your wallet and spoil yourself with either the ALO Continental V5 or the Woo Wa8 Eclipse. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Good luck. Looks like an amazing IEM, especially one with a signature similar to the Fostex TH-900.


----------



## UntilThen

Today Mullard EF80 works with RFT EL12N. Works it did and sends me into a spin. Spacious, layered, punchy and laser precision. This is with a modded HD650 and it's as clear as a summer's day while retaining the tube sound we tube fanatics love.
  
 Ps.. the volume is back ... full scale.


----------



## tjw321

indigo bob said:


> Do you have any recommendations for Tube sound for an IEM like the Vegas?
> 
> The guys who make Campfire Audio make Alo Audio, which makes portable tube amplifiers (Alo continental v5), and some good stuff, but at the cost of them, I figured I might as well just try out a desktop amp, and was looking for something that had a black background and warm tube sound....   Otherwise, I might try and stick with the Alo continental v5 instead.  I just liked the idea of having something that I could tube roll with.
> 
> Yah, the Vegas are unique.  I never intended to buy any quality tube amp until I listened to them at Canjam New York.


 
 I am no expert but I'm pretty sure that most tube amps suitable for IEMS will be hybrids due to impedance matching issues. Tube amps tend to have relatively high output impedances.
  
 I've been having fun with the IMS hybrid tube amp http://www.head-fi.org/products/ims-hybrid-valve-headphone-amplifier-hva/reviews/15617 but I wouldn't say that it is at the level you want and it definitely doesn't have a black background (but, for me, it's a great device for adding a bit of euphonic goodness). Something else which may be more suitable for your use might be a tube buffer like the Ifi iTube - http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-itube2/. I have the original and have it inline just before my other headphone amp (Ifi iCan). I haven't tried IEMs with it since that amp is definitely for headphones, not IEMs, and I don't have any really serious IEMs. I have an Ifi ieMatch - http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-iematch/ - which I plan to use should I ever get any TOTL IEMs. It has worked well for me in the few situations I have used it. I could try it with my iCan/iTube combo if that is something you would find of interest.
  
 I think I have seen you post on the Trinity threads and I do have some of the Trinity IEMs. Is there one of those which I could try out for you with any of the arrangements I outlined above to give you some idea of whether they would work well? The PM4 is probably the best Trinity IEM I have. The other better than entry-level IEMs I have are the Lear NSS01 and the Flare R2As.
  
 Be aware I am no audiophile. I just "know what I like", but I can at least tell you whether the black background is there, and that the sound isn't terrible...


----------



## UntilThen

tjw321 said:


> Be aware I am no audiophile. I just "know what I like"


 
  
 TJ, if I'm the CEO of a newly started Audio company, I'd employ the enthusiast who knows what he likes rather than the audiophile who doesn't...  just saying.


----------



## tjw321

untilthen said:


> TJ, if I'm the CEO of a newly started Audio company, I'd employ the enthusiast who knows what he likes rather than the audiophile who doesn't...  just saying.


 
 And that is the sort of Audio company I'd be buying from...


----------



## UntilThen

Got me a pair of Mullard EF86 from Langrex. The infatuations with EF86 continues.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Got me a pair of Mullard EF86 from Langrex. The infatuations with EF86 continues.


 
 Are you infatuated with EF86 because (chose only one):
  
 1.  It may be the best driver ever discovered for Elise.
 2.  It is not the best, but pretty good for the price.
 3.  It is different.
 4.  You are different.
 5.  You are crazy.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Are you infatuated with EF86 because (chose only one):
> 
> 1.  It may be the best driver ever discovered for Elise.
> 2.  It is not the best, but pretty good for the price.
> ...


 
  
 In the world of Elise tubes, there are no best because tonally, these latest incarnations of tubes (EL and EF) sounds surreal and holographic. However these are according to my ears and my gear. If someone comes along and says that their 6sn7 and 6as7 sounds the best, they are correct too.
  
 They are variations of the best possible kind. Tube rolling in Elise can be dangerous because you will discover lots of lovely tones. You can check in anytime but you can never leave. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now I look forward to getting my Euforia today .......


----------



## mordy

I am also mesmerized by my tube combination, but it is not an EF86 combo (ordered the adapters and a pair of Svetlana). Instead it is the EL11/EL6 combination. I will try to describe what I especially like about it - tried to clarify it to myself by comparing it to an EL11/EL12N combo.
  
 The EL11 tubes are an old pair of TFKs (older than pct) in both instances.
  
 With the EL12N the sound is very detailed and the bass especially stands out with great impact and slam. Everything is there, but it is clinical. Remember the early LED lights with a harsh bluish light? You can see everything very well, but it is a little harsh. The sound is more analytical and not completely cohesive.
  
 With the EL11/EL6 tubes everything takes on a warmer presentation - think the newer LED lights with a nice warm and very pleasant light. The bass does not stand out in relief, but the entire presentation is much more organic and cohesive with a beautiful and natural sounding timbre. All the detail is there, but it does not hit you in the face. However,  if you want to hear all the little details, they are all there. And h1, the EL6 does not sound like the EL3N any more than the EL11 sounds like the EL12.
  
 On a different note (pun intended) - coming back to the new wunderkind on the block, the EF86, I see that it also comes in the 6267 designation. Are there any of these tubes that were made in the US? I have seen GE labeled tubes, but they were made in England. The Tung Sol branded ones I have seen were made in France.
  
 Does anybody know if the Tung Sol EF86/EF806SG reissues are good sounding?


----------



## mordy

OK, here is a Sylvania 6267 - must be made in the US:
  




 Lets take a closer look:
  




  
 Cool stylized S logo. But wait a minute, where did I see those plates before?
  




  
  
 Yep, these are Russian fake branded Sylvania made by Svetlana.
  
  
 Let's try again - maybe these are US made:
  




  
 But these say West Germany. Maybe made by Siemens:
  




 Pretty distinctive plate structure. Did I say Siemens? Maybe RFT?
  
  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Let's go green:




 According to the seller this tube was made by RFT or Tesla.
  
 So now we know how to identify a Siemens EF86:
  




  
 Oops, I think we are back where we started, in Russia. Or maybe somewhere else?
  
  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Interesting uneven mesh plate - could this be a Valvo?
  
  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 These Siemens tubes could be Philips Hamburg.
  
 It's all fake news.....
  
 Confusing, eh?


----------



## Indigo Bob

tjw321 said:


> I am no expert but I'm pretty sure that most tube amps suitable for IEMS will be hybrids due to impedance matching issues. Tube amps tend to have relatively high output impedances.
> 
> I've been having fun with the IMS hybrid tube amp http://www.head-fi.org/products/ims-hybrid-valve-headphone-amplifier-hva/reviews/15617 but I wouldn't say that it is at the level you want and it definitely doesn't have a black background (but, for me, it's a great device for adding a bit of euphonic goodness). Something else which may be more suitable for your use might be a tube buffer like the Ifi iTube - http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-itube2/. I have the original and have it inline just before my other headphone amp (Ifi iCan). I haven't tried IEMs with it since that amp is definitely for headphones, not IEMs, and I don't have any really serious IEMs. I have an Ifi ieMatch - http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-iematch/ - which I plan to use should I ever get any TOTL IEMs. It has worked well for me in the few situations I have used it. I could try it with my iCan/iTube combo if that is something you would find of interest.
> 
> ...


 

 That would be wonderful if you could tell me how it sounds with IEM's.  I am familiar with the pm4 and have given it a listen.  I am mostly concerned about the black background since I think the rest will do the job, but I'll wait to assume.
  
 I in fact have the IMS HVA and love it. It doesn't have a black background, but for the price it is well worth it for me and right now I honestly don't prefer to listen to anything else.  And the background of it is as good if not better than my FiiO X3ii, so I am happy with that.  It is a wonderful introduction into the tube world,
  
 But I would like something that provides optimal tube sound with a black background and doesn't leave me wishing for more.  The language describing the Elise communicated those aspects, and I am curious if those qualities can be heard in an IEM.


----------



## Oskari

Mordy, that's a nice demonstration of buyer beware.




mordy said:


> These Siemens tubes could be Philips Hamburg.




They could, but the code tells that they are Philips (Radiotechnique) Suresnes. :rolleyes:


----------



## tjw321

indigo bob said:


> That would be wonderful if you could tell me how it sounds with IEM's.  I am familiar with the pm4 and have given it a listen.  I am mostly concerned about the black background since I think the rest will do the job, but I'll wait to assume.
> 
> I in fact have the IMS HVA and love it. It doesn't have a black background, but for the price it is well worth it for me and right now I honestly don't prefer to listen to anything else.  And the background of it is as good if not better than my FiiO X3ii, so I am happy with that.  It is a wonderful introduction into the tube world,
> 
> But I would like something that provides optimal tube sound with a black background and doesn't leave me wishing for more.  The language describing the Elise communicated those aspects, and I am curious if those qualities can be heard in an IEM.


 
 I tried the PM4 via my Ifi ieMatch last night and I have to say the PM4 never sounded better. If you have the IMS then you probably know that it really only works well with the input and output in a relatively narrow range. There is an element of that with the Elise (and with all tube amps, I would imagine), with certain tube types (I can't use my ECC81 with anything low impedance), but the range is so much extended compared to the IMS that you probably won't ever be constrained by it. I've never experienced it with stock tubes and most people either haven't noticed it, or don't stray as far from the makers recommendations as I have. However, ATM I'd recommend getting the ieMatch as well, if you decide to go down the pure (i.e. non-hybrid) valve route (e.g. Elise) driving IEMs, since that will make it much easier to hit that sweet spot.
  
 I'm hesitant to try my IEMs without the ieMatch, since I'm pretty sure that the Elise is capable of blowing them if I'm careless, but I may give it a go tonight. I've only accidentally turned the volume up to 100, instead of down to 0, once...
  
 Tube amps are much more susceptible to EMI than SS amps so getting a black background is harder than with SS amps. Generally I only get significant background noise with "new" tubes even though my Elise is right next to my cordless phone's base station. After a few hours of burn-in the background noise drops below my perceptual threshold unless I turn up the volume with no music playing. The ieMatch helps with that too. Again, if I get a chance, I'll try without tonight and see if the ieMatch really made a difference.
  
 So, how did the PM4s sound with the Elise (full chain was X5iii coax > Bimby > Elise > ieMatch > PM4)? The PM4s have a bit of a reputation for being a bit thin-sounding, with a weird distortion in the lower treble. This has never bothered me - though I can hear what people are alluding to - and the PM4s are one of my favourite IEMs. However, with the Elise there is a whole lot more "energy", "fullness" and "depth" and the overly airy sound (the thinness I mentioned) fills out and becomes far more full-bodied. At first, some of the detail seemed a little lacking but I either got used to it, learned how to hear the detail through the increased energy, or the Bimby and Elise warmed up. Most likely it was the Bimby warming up which made the most difference. It's the difference I imagine when people talk about amps driving headphones properly.
  
 I'm terrible at analytical listening and describing what I'm hearing so I'll summarise with saying that what I was hearing was almost certainly the "tube sound" that you mentioned, my tubes are well-burnt in so there was very little background noise, and that I'm really tired this morning because I got hit by "one more song" syndrome last night 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 So it seems to work really well, but be aware that low impedances aren't really what tube amps are designed for (though Elise does better than most) but the ieMatch is designed for that exact circumstance and seems to be working well for me.
  
 Almost everyone else on this thread is probably better qualified than me to talk about tube amps so everyone please don't be shy to correct any of my speculative statements that may be incorrect.
  
 And so ends my longest post on head-fi ever...


----------



## richdytch

One of my EL12 tubes gradually failed over the weekend - the one which _didn't _come from Wege High Fidelity. Almost no sound on that channel now. I'm going to take it up with the seller, since he claimed it measured well - I don't have access to my gmail from the work network - but I think it was 72mA. 
  
 In the meantime I'm back to EL12N powers. They really don't lack much compared to the EL12. Maybe a little scale and oomph, but they're still really good. What can be interpreted as sharpness seems to be diminishing all the time, and is rendered pretty much irrelevant when paired with a nice rounded driver tube. My KR 6SN7s which are from 1950, are just that. They don't have quite the treble sparkle of the VT231 from 1944, and are nicely full in the mids. A very nice complement for the EL12N. 
  
 When payday comes this week, I'll order a replacement EL12 from Wege.


----------



## aqsw

Just set the Elise up in my office. Brand new EL3Ns and El12Ns. 
Wow, It sounds fantastic. Got rid of my LC awhile ago and I was listening through the Hegel DAC headphone out. 
No comparison. I like going to work again.


----------



## tjw321

PM4's straight into the Elise without any kind of impedance adapter are truly awful. It isn't what the Elise or the PM4s were designed for and it shows. It isn't just a distorted FR, it's an unlistenable mess. I promised to try it but I'll never do it again.
With the ieMatch is a whole other story, though. That's back in my chain and I have a few minutes to listen to Randy Crawford.


----------



## aqsw

tjw321 said:


> PM4's straight into the Elise without any kind of impedance adapter are truly awful. It isn't what the Elise or the PM4s were designed for and it shows. It isn't just a distorted FR, it's an unlistenable mess. I promised to try it but I'll never do it again.
> With the ieMatch is a whole other story, though. That's back in my chain and I have a few minutes to listen to Randy Crawford.


(

What's a PM4?


----------



## aqsw

I use:

Euphoria - Movies - Ether Cs Closed Planars
 Music - Beyer T1

Elise at work. ( must be closed) Closed Planars.

Alot of people on this thresd have stated Planars are good with the Elise.


----------



## tejanolibre

Unfortunately  I bought these because I am a neophyte buyer/user.
  
 They work.
  
 Made in England right by Red Square !
  
 The "Flying Saucers" should have given it away but the Seller did NOT answer my direct questions about the origin before I bought them.
  
 Lesson Learned.
  
 Happy Listening ,
  
 TL


----------



## mordy

Hi tejanolibre,
  
 If you got them from this seller at least you did not overpay too much for a pair of Svetlana tubes:
  




  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-OF-6AS7G-UNITED-ELECTRON-NOS-IN-BOXES-DUAL-BOTTOM-GETTERS-/262899519564?hash=item3d3608504c:g:Yj4AAOSwSlBYzE-O


----------



## Indigo Bob

tjw321 said:


> PM4's straight into the Elise without any kind of impedance adapter are truly awful. It isn't what the Elise or the PM4s were designed for and it shows. It isn't just a distorted FR, it's an unlistenable mess. I promised to try it but I'll never do it again.
> With the ieMatch is a whole other story, though. That's back in my chain and I have a few minutes to listen to Randy Crawford.


 

 Thank you.
  
 But the background was still black with th Ifi iematch?  
  
 Did the iematch cause any loss of quality?


----------



## tjw321

aqsw said:


> (
> 
> What's a PM4?


 
 Sorry - I hate it when people use these abbreviations assuming that everyone knows what they are talking about and now I've gone and done it myself! Indigo Bob was asking me about using IEMs on the Elise and the Trinity Audio Phantom Master 4s (aka PM4s) were the IEMs we had in common.
  


indigo bob said:


> Thank you.
> 
> But the background was still black with th Ifi iematch?
> 
> Did the iematch cause any loss of quality?


 
 I  would hesitate to call the background black on any tube amp since there are so many factors which can affect it due to the nature of tubes. I would say that generally mine is at the level of a decent FM receiver. I can usually tell whether the amp is on or off just by putting my headphones on, but only just. Others get slightly different results, mostly depending on the tubes used. I currently have EL12N and EL3Ns and that combination is one of the noisiest I have with the specific tubes I have. That will probably get better with burn-in of the tubes but regardless of that it is one of my favourite combinations which I will use even with the slightly increased noise over other combos. And I do value a black background, but those tubes sound so good....
  
 I have a solid-state Ifi stack and that has a *really* black background. I doubt that any tube amp will ever compete with that, but *my* Elise is several orders of magnitude better than *my* IMS hybrid amp. But it depends so much on the environment that I can't offer any guarantees. The Elise is probably up there with the best, (based on what I've read - I don't have any other high-end tube amps) for a black background, but it's still a tube amp (however check out the Euforia thread - but the Euforia is beyond my budget just now).
  
 It's hard to say whether the iematch causes loss of quality or not because you can't directly compare, since the amps you'll use it with are different to the amps without. I would say (and many seem to agree - though there has been one dissenter) that it doesn't degrade the quality. I can say that my PM4s never sounded better. I understand that it uses a "voltage divider network" rather than a simple resistor and this is why the frequency response is relatively unaffected compared to the cheaper impedance matchers. It's pricey for what it is, but it seems to work very well, and what isn't pricey in the audiophile world?
  
 I'm conscious that I've evaded the questions somewhat but if I had to answer more directly I'd say that the background of my Elise in *my* environment is very dark grey, and that the ieMatch does not degrade the quality.


----------



## Frederick Rea

tjw321 said:


> Sorry - I hate it when people use these abbreviations assuming that everyone knows what they are talking about and now I've gone and done it myself! Indigo Bob was asking me about using IEMs on the Elise and the Trinity Audio Phantom Master 4s (aka PM4s) were the IEMs we had in common.
> 
> I  would hesitate to call the background black on any tube amp since there are so many factors which can affect it due to the nature of tubes. I would say that generally mine is at the level of a decent FM receiver. I can usually tell whether the amp is on or off just by putting my headphones on, but only just. Others get slightly different results, mostly depending on the tubes used. *I currently have EL12N and EL3Ns and that combination is one of the noisiest I have with the specific tubes I have*. That will probably get better with burn-in of the tubes but regardless of that it is one of my favourite combinations which I will use even with the slightly increased noise over other combos. And I do value a black background, but those tubes sound so good....
> 
> ...


 
 I think these noise (hum ) problems with those EL3n is dued to the adapters. I had always problems with that. I think that this adapter has born crooked and with the feet in front


----------



## pctazhp

Thanks to @connieflyer, I now possess item of unparalleled beauty. It has also made me true believer in power cords. Don't notice any difference in SQ with stock cord, but did discover Elise won't perform without power cord. Maybe I should arrange to have my direct feed from Polo Verde Nuclear Generating Plant west of Phoenix reconnected.


----------



## UntilThen

frederick rea said:


> I think these noise (hum ) problems with those EL3n is dued to the adapters. I had always problems with that. I think that this adapter has born crooked and with the feet in front


 

 Somehow I never had any hum with EL3N and adapters. It's been really quiet on mine. It is the EL11 that is causing me problems and that is the tube's problem because EL12N and EL12 works great with those adapters.


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> Somehow I never had any hum with EL3N and adapters. It's been really quiet on mine. It is the EL11 that is causing me problems and that is the tube's problem because EL12N and EL12 works great with those adapters.


 

 I have never had hum problems with either EL3N or EL11/12 single-tube adapters.Dead quiet. Had a little trouble with EL3N dual adapters, but that was pretty easily solved by re-seating the EL3Ns in the adapters.


----------



## aqsw

I am totally dumfounded. 
When I received my Euforia, I hooked up the Elise to the Hegel DAC and Oppo PM3s. I had never run EL3Ns and EL12Ns with the Hegel before. 

All I can say is WOW.
My elise never sounded so good. The Hegel is an inferior dac, the Oppos are inferior headphones. Not sure what's going on , but this combo is fantastic.

Not Euforia quality, but it is way up there in all the systems I have heard. 
Let our shipper at work listen to a Doobies Brothers video that was posted. I think his jaw is still agape three hours later.

I love FA.

P.S. Never had a hum with my EL3Ns on either of my amps. Pitch black


----------



## Indigo Bob

tjw321 said:


> Sorry - I hate it when people use these abbreviations assuming that everyone knows what they are talking about and now I've gone and done it myself! Indigo Bob was asking me about using IEMs on the Elise and the Trinity Audio Phantom Master 4s (aka PM4s) were the IEMs we had in common.
> 
> I  would hesitate to call the background black on any tube amp since there are so many factors which can affect it due to the nature of tubes. I would say that generally mine is at the level of a decent FM receiver. I can usually tell whether the amp is on or off just by putting my headphones on, but only just. Others get slightly different results, mostly depending on the tubes used. I currently have EL12N and EL3Ns and that combination is one of the noisiest I have with the specific tubes I have. That will probably get better with burn-in of the tubes but regardless of that it is one of my favourite combinations which I will use even with the slightly increased noise over other combos. And I do value a black background, but those tubes sound so good....
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you very much for the comprehensive answer.  I really appreciate it..
  
 For my HVA, I do have to make sure it is not around electronics to get a quality background.  I am a big fan of the HVA, though, and love being able to have that sound portable.


----------



## HPLobster

My Oehlbach-powercord (C13/150) arrived today...and surprisingly I have to admitt that it actually made a difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I´m 100 % sure of it. What gives me the confidence to say so? Because I had ideal testing circumstances (well, sort of 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)....
  
 They arrived at noon (it says "Oehlbach-Member of High End Society" on the cover...wasn´t sure if this was meant to act as a deterrent at first 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), I connected them right away to my Elise and went on with my daily business, later had dinner with my wife and afterwards sat down to enjoy a little listening session whilst doing some minor paperwork...
 As I was listening to the Dire Straits (yes, I´m a fan too of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and Talk Talk, my thoughts kept wandering off and I was like "wow, the LCDs sound even better today" and "hm, maybe they have reached kind of a ´burn-in´-point?"...when finally the scales fell from my eyes: "Of course, the NEW CABLE". Think of me whatever you please, but I honestly had forgotten about it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 So now I know it works, specifically the bass has more slam and clarity most prominently IMHO I listened to some more bass-heavy stuff like Jon Hopkins and Boards Of Canada and yep, the low-end has really gained in quality and quantity...
  
 I am essentially as impressed as astonished


----------



## HPLobster

Still waiting on the EL-adapters.
 As my impatience grows uncontrollable, my thirst for tube-rolling also swells...
  
 So I´ve got an ACTUAL QUESTION (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) to ask:
  
 --> Is there a considerable difference in sound between the Sylvania 6SN7WGTA black base and brown base? And - if so- of which kind? I´m looking for an interim tube to drive my Valvo 6080s until the EL3Ns are due...


----------



## mordy

Hi HP,
  
 This is what I wrote five days ago:
  
_  I am a big cable skeptic, but I was really surprised that the $10 upgraded A/C power  cord that CF recommended made a real difference in my system. The bass and treble has more punch and definition with this cord._
  
 I had exactly the same experience as you. In the beginning (like pct) I did not hear any difference, but suddenly I thought to myself: My system sounds really good today! And just like you, it took a while to realize that it was because of the new power cord.
  
 But this is as far as I will go... unless somebody comes up with super duper RCA patch cords for a couple of bucks each.....


----------



## DecentLevi

Valvo EL11 tube 'adventure' update:
  
 So today I got a 'pair' of two Valvo 'EL11' tubes that I had been eyeing in recent weeks, in hopes to fix the channel imbalance of my current two. (keep reading and you'll see what the _'quotes' _are about).
  
 Unboxed, I see two quite different looking tubes. One with silver visible through the glass towards the base and on the top, and both having different plate widths and top fin constructions! After some testing of these and noticing substantial channel imbalance as drivers, thought I'd compare these side-by-side with the Valvo EL12. Turns out the tube without silver glass (and no label at all) is appears to be a Valvo EL12! It has precisely the same internal construction (upper fins, columns, plate shape / size, overall height, etc.) as EL12. However when trying this unlabeled tube as powers with one of my EL12's from a matched pair, I for some reason get a staggering imbalance to the order of 70% quieter than the EL12. Moving it back to the driver seat paired with another genuine EL11 the sound and volume actually does now make me think it could still be an EL11 after all, having only on the order of a 20% channel imbalance (using 6AS7G powers).
  
 Neither of these tubes have the same construction as my (nearly) matched pair of Valvo EL11's, having both taller size more equal to EL12's yet one having different construction than any of my EL11's, and the other having the same construction as my EL12's - yet performing closer to an EL11. Neither of them are channel matched either with EL11's or EL12's, and one of them I can't be certain which type it is. Both have no hum but a channel imbalance when together, and both of them have slight hum when paired with a standard EL11. However one of them is only 10% imbalanced when paired with a standard EL11, but has slight hum. 
  
 Fortunately, turns out my existing EL11 pair although slightly unmatched in model are coming into their own with balance, only around 10% unbalanced and sometimes unnoticeable. Also I'm quite impressed with the Reflektor 6N23P (1975 'holy grail' version) as powers. Compared to a proper pair of Valvo EL11, it's more vivid, 'deep into the scene' and the bass is somewhat more full bodied.
  
 Regardless, both Valvo EL11 and 6N23P drivers have their own place, and I'm only out a meager $35 for this next pair of EL11's or whatever they are. They're both working well but just don't synergise with the rest of my system somehow. Maybe if someone wants one or both I'll send them for free minus shipping.
  
 Also for anybody on the lookout for Valvo EL11's (or Valvo EL12's for that matter), take extra caution to find a matched pair as there are so many variations of different constructions of these.
  
 PS- I do believe Yitry (Langrex Tubes) still has several more pairs of Valvo EL12's that are astonishingly matched and in top flight condition.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi HP,
> 
> This is what I wrote five days ago:
> 
> ...


 

 While it pains me greatly to admit that @connieflyer might actually know something of value, I have to admit that after a day of burn-in I'm hearing a definite improvement along the lines you describe. I have no idea how a power cord can make a difference. Now I'll have to order a second one for my Bimby. Please don't say anything about this to CF.


----------



## connieflyer

Hehehe better get them while they last price on my last one went up a few dollars. I now have three in house and one more on the way for the Euforia. Put one on the Sony music server, one on the power amp and one on the pc. The sound on the speakers is what first struck me as an improvement. Went ahead and made up all new speaker wires nice solder job if I do say so myself. Cleaned all the rca connects with de-oxit and now reap the rewards.  De-oxit even works on your shoes if you happen to step in dog doo! Great stuff!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Hehehe better get them while they last price on my last one went up a few dollars. I now have three in house and one more on the way for the Euforia. Put one on the Sony music server, one on the power amp and one on the pc. The sound on the speakers is what first struck me as an improvement. Went ahead and made up all new speaker wires nice solder job if I do say so myself. Cleaned all the rca connects with de-oxit and now reap the rewards.  De-oxit even works on your shoes if you happen to step in dog doo! Great stuff!


 

 Have you tried de-oxing your light bulb sockets to get more light???


----------



## connieflyer

That's just plain silly using deoxit in a light bulb socket of course you don't get more light, that is silly, it is more efficient though and I've noticed my electric bill has gone down so that's a plus


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> That's just plain silly using deoxit in a light bulb socket of course you don't get more light, that is silly, it is more efficient though and I've noticed my electric bill has gone down so that's a plus


 

 What you resist persists, or something like that


----------



## aqsw

I would like to give a heads up if anybody is looking for custom cables. I get mine made from hivemind cables (google it).
He is in Winnipeg, but will ship world wide. Prices are very good, and you get a real quality cable for what you pay.

Jerrold is a one man operation, so you are not paying for alot of production, staff, marketing, etc. costs.


----------



## HPLobster

Anyone on the Sylvania 6SN7 brown vs black base?
  
 I´m a little confused since I allegedly found out that the brown based ones are the WGTAs and the black based once GTs and sometimes can be found as th "Chrome Dome" vintage GTB version. Yet I can also find black based ones that have the green lettering "WGTA" on them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 hm....the difference in price isn´t significant....and UT apparently uses the black base ones while PCT is using the brown base Sylvanias....so they both can´t be bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I am just curious...


----------



## Oskari

The brown base, the base itself, is the higher spec one. But you're not going to take the tube on board your B-52, are you? So, this doesn't matter. Otherwise, I doubt there's much difference between them if they are of the same vintage (and construction). On the other hand, Sylvania may have been the most prolific of all 6SN7 makers. There are many vintages!


----------



## HPLobster

oskari said:


> The brown base, the base itself, is the higher spec one. But you're not going to take the tube on board your B-52, are you? So, this doesn't matter. Otherwise, I doubt there's much difference between them if they are of the same vintage (and construction). On the other hand, Sylvania may have been the most prolific of all 6SN7 makers. There are many vintages!


 
 Cool! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so the brown base it is....
 From this day on my Feliks Audio Elise shall answer to the name of *B-52. *That´s settled.


----------



## HPLobster

On a different note: I know that the Euforia gets all the buzz right now, but as of now I have to declare that the Mojo-Elise-LCD-3-combination may be the best thing/system I ever listened to.
 I´m one week of sublime listening in now...it´s addicitve 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I still prefer the HD 800 when it comes to classical music and (most of) Jazz, but most of the time I´m not into critical listening these days and here the LCD-3f just delivers on all fronts...
 I have been searching for this kind of sound (an open-back-extension of my beloved PM-3s) for a long time now....Hifiman, Fostex, Nighthawks, 650s, PM-1s, Elears...none of those satisfied in the long run...
 The Audeze sounds so refined and dynamic, yet still amazingly effortless, resolving with breathtaking layering, but somehow manages to be silky, smooth and musical all the time...it´s mind-boggling!
  
 The HD 800 is like a Sushi Master´s Bento box (with a lot of Wasabi) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It´s healthy, it´s brain food, it sharpens your senses, it´s perfectly defined, you could live a fulfilled and harmonic life just enjoying it every day.
 But the LCD-3s are like the grill masters signature double-beef burger with barbecue sauce following a secret recipe that has been handed over within the family for decades. And then there´s this mousse au chocolat - caramel - sweet cream - dessert - thing to die for.... and you can´t stop feasting on it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (sorry for this, but I got fed up with car-allegories 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
  
 But most importantly: It makes me so very happy and it´s such a remarkable achievement by Feliks Audio that thanks to the Elise, I can now combine the best of two sound-worlds without having to switch or adjust my gear significantly, despite some tube-rolling over time of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 This is just one amazing amp


----------



## Spork67

hplobster said:


> On a different note: I know that the Euforia gets all the buzz right now, but as of now I have to declare that the Mojo-Elise-LCD-3-combination may be the best thing/system I ever listened to.
> I´m one week of sublime listening in now...it´s addicitve
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Great post - now I'm hungry.


----------



## UntilThen

hplobster said:


> Anyone on the Sylvania 6SN7 brown vs black base?
> 
> I´m a little confused since I allegedly found out that the brown based ones are the WGTAs and the black based once GTs and sometimes can be found as th "Chrome Dome" vintage GTB version. Yet I can also find black based ones that have the green lettering "WGTA" on them
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Lobster my old friend.... singing in the tune of Sound of Silence. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have both the Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Sylvania 6sn7wgt. If you drink red wine, the former would be the wet variety while the brown base is dry. Black is bright and clear and sweet sounding. Brown is dryer, more full bodied and good solid bass and soundstage.
  
 It's useful to have both.
  


hplobster said:


> On a different note: I know that the Euforia gets all the buzz right now, but as of now I have to declare that the Mojo-Elise-LCD-3-combination may be the best thing/system I ever listened to.
> I´m one week of sublime listening in now...it´s addicitve
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Elise is indeed a marvellous tube amp. I've always said that it will hold it's place in a setup comprising HD800, T1 and now as you eluded to, the Audeze LC3f. Add in a nice DAC and you have a headfi system you can trully enjoy and be proud of. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ps... I reserve my adulation of Euforia on the other thread....


----------



## richdytch

EL12N and Ken Rad VT-231  has turned out to be a surprisingly good combo. I thought the air of the KRs would tease out any sharpness from the EL12Ns, but quite the opposite seems to be the case. Wonderful clarity - not really the usual hole in the midrange that I associate with the KR VT231. Just loads of air, smoothness in the mids and very physical bass. I don't believe I've found a better combo for heavy dubby techno. You can really feel things hitting you in the stomach, yet at the same time everything sounds so sweet. 
  
 I think I mentioned a while back, while trying individual EL3Ns as power tubes, that while they lacked an awful lot of slam they actually did a very good job of letting your driver tubes sing. I think that's true of all the EL family we are using as powers. No 6080 or 6AS7G _that I could afford _ ever came close in terms of its ability to clearly put forward the character of a driver tube.


----------



## Frederick Rea

>


 
  


richdytch said:


> *EL12N and Ken Rad VT-231*  has turned out to be a surprisingly good combo. I thought the air of the KRs would tease out any sharpness from the EL12Ns, but quite the opposite seems to be the case. Wonderful clarity - not really the usual hole in the midrange that I associate with the KR VT231. Just loads of air, smoothness in the mids and very physical bass. I don't believe I've found a better combo for heavy dubby techno. You can really feel things hitting you in the stomach, yet at the same time everything sounds so sweet.
> 
> I think I mentioned a while back, while trying individual EL3Ns as power tubes, that while they lacked an awful lot of slam they actually did a very good job of letting your driver tubes sing. I think that's true of all the EL family we are using as powers. No 6080 or 6AS7G _that I could afford _ ever came close in terms of its ability to clearly put forward the character of a driver tube.


 
 Waiting for EL12 adapters from MrsXuling and I will try them with those Ken Rad VT99 I have
 I like them and they belong to my default setup MWT/Osram 6AS7g and Ken RadVT-99 on Elise. Now I am going to try these drivers with EL12N. Do you know the difference in sound between GEC 6AS7G and EL12N as powers with the same Ken Rad VT-99 or VT-231 as drivers? I agree with you about the "hole" in midrange of the KenRads and for that I have those Tung Sol 6F8G, do you agree?


----------



## richdytch

frederick rea said:


> Waiting for EL12 adapters from MrsXuling and I will try them with those Ken Rad VT99 I have
> I like them and they belong to my default setup MWT/Osram 6AS7g and Ken RadVT-99 on Elise. Now I am going to try these drivers with EL12N. Do you know the difference in sound between GEC 6AS7G and EL12N as powers with the same Ken Rad VT-99 or VT-231 as drivers? I agree with you about the "hole" in midrange of the KenRads and for that I have those Tung Sol 6F8G, do you agree?


 
  
 Hi Frederick, I've never had the good fortune to hear the GEC 6AS7G. Obviously it's all very subjective, but I've heard it stated that the EL12 STs are in a similar league, with the EL12N not coming far behind. I know for sure that my EL12Ns are gradually improving, becoming slightly more talented every day. Afraid that I don't know the Tung Sol 6F8G... but will investigate!


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,
  
 I have the GEC 6AS7G and I think that they may sound very good with the EL12N.
  
*BUT:*
  
*I would not try it because the amperage is 5A + 2.4A = 7.4A which is higher than the recommended max 6.8A for the Elise.*
  
 Sorry - I almost was ready to try it in the Euforia that is rated 7A, but I don't want to take a chance.
  
 PS: I may have misunderstood your post - you probably meant the GEC 6AS7G vs the the EL12/EL12N. In any case, comparing the GEC to the EL12 this morning my impression is that the EL12/EL12N sounds better. At least I imagine that my GEC tubes are increasing in value as time goes on.
  
 All this is new to me, and it is possible that there will be a combination using the GEC as power tubes that sounds equally good compared to EL12N/EL12, but you are limited to drivers that don't draw more than 0.9A.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Hello Lobster my old friend.... singing in the tune of Sound of Silence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Very interesting! I like these culinary comparisons. this should become a thing here on head-fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Having processed this info, I´m still going with the dry Bordeaux first...


----------



## Frederick Rea

mordy said:


> Hi FR,
> 
> I have the GEC 6AS7G and I think that they may sound very good with the EL12N.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you mordy. Because  those GEC's are my benchmark for powers, if EL12N has the same (or almost) homogeneity will be much more cheaper  then. For drivers I love those Tung Sol or Ken Rad 6F8G (each to a different genre of music). Thank you anyway for the advise regarding total amperage, is always wellcome


----------



## vl4dimir

Does any of you guys want to buy my EL3N (nos used a few hours) + adaptors  in EU? I moved from HD650 to HD800 and with the later one, I prefer EL12N+stock


----------



## pctazhp

frederick rea said:


> Thank you mordy. Because  those GEC's are my benchmark for powers, if EL12N has the same (or almost) homogeneity will be much more cheaper  then. For drivers I love those Tung Sol or Ken Rad 6F8G (each to a different genre of music). Thank you anyway for the advise regarding total amperage, is always wellcome


 

 I find using Sylvania 6SN7WGT drivers with GEC 6AS7G on Elise is a very nice combination.


----------



## Frederick Rea

On the way to the perfect audition
 For someone who has problems with tube microphonics, I have it with great results:
 Use as feet under the amp **
  
 Insuflated tire from rc cars
  

 or foom

  
 ** I'm against rubber feet unless we shield amp structure


----------



## Frederick Rea

On the way to the perfect audition
 To treat tubes and hum we could use metal stents around them (shielded)


_*Nonmagnetic metals, such as aluminum will not work at very low frequencies; a magnetic material; for example, Iron or Nickel is required*_


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,
  
 Your methods sound interesting - did you try them all yourself yet? The ferrite core looks neater than the other solutions.
  
 If you have tried all the things (tires, foam, stents and cores), could you comment on what works best and in which situations?
  
 I came across a hum problem yesterday - please look at my post on the Euforia thread.


----------



## Frederick Rea

Yes I've tried everything I told you
 I still use on my system those ferrite insulators (from 3 years till now) and sometimes those tires from my child RC car when I have problems with stability on tubes. The stent or tube web I used on a tube that behaves unstable (hum and so on)
 It is a ever surch for controling electricity and magentism in audio aproach. As you know there are several good things already in the market for this, but since audio brands discover it or COPY they will use it as a new product and rise the price to stratosphere. It is an amateur work within my love for music
 I use as well a small PLASTIC needle on tube sockets or a small fiber ring around central guide of the tube to self limit insertion and live a gap between socket and tube (for thermal reasons and to have already a gap to insert someting to remove the tube (EX new sockets)


----------



## UntilThen

richdytch said:


> EL12N and Ken Rad VT-231  has turned out to be a surprisingly good combo. I thought the air of the KRs would tease out any sharpness from the EL12Ns, but quite the opposite seems to be the case. Wonderful clarity - not really the usual hole in the midrange that I associate with the KR VT231. Just loads of air, smoothness in the mids and very physical bass. I don't believe I've found a better combo for heavy dubby techno. You can really feel things hitting you in the stomach, yet at the same time everything sounds so sweet.
> 
> I think I mentioned a while back, while trying individual EL3Ns as power tubes, that while they lacked an awful lot of slam they actually did a very good job of letting your driver tubes sing. I think that's true of all the EL family we are using as powers. No 6080 or 6AS7G _that I could afford _ ever came close in terms of its ability to clearly put forward the character of a driver tube.


 
  
 Hello Rich, glad you are enjoying the different tones with Elise.This is what makes tube rolling interesting. You will hear the different nuances of tone and our ears connects with our brains to pick that up very well.
  
 Keep the feedback coming.


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,
  
 Tried to find these net like contraptions but could not find them on Amazon or eBay. Could you please tell me what name or search term to use to find these items, or maybe you have a link - thanks.


----------



## Frederick Rea

You could try search Google "Metal Mesh" or "Metal Mesh Tube" and Images
 Here
 http://perforatedmetalmesh.sell.everychina.com/p-104620282/showimage3.html
 or here
 http://www.kingdamesh.com/Deep-processing-Products/Metal-mesh-tube-filter-62963-1.htm
 or else


----------



## 2359glenn

You can go to a electrical supply and get a Kellems grip and cur the hangers off.
 For large size wire!
 Good luck getting it on the tube things things are tight.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-HUBBELL-KELLEMS-022-02-005-CABLE-WIRE-GRIP-1-1-24-02202005-/182070835214?hash=item2a6444780emBUFVaxYISzElBvmT_Z2JfA


----------



## Frederick Rea

mordy said:


> Hi FR,
> 
> Tried to find these net like contraptions but could not find them on Amazon or eBay. Could you please tell me what name or search term to use to find these items, or maybe you have a link - thanks.


 
 But before this you must clean your amp from statics
 Seet your Amp on this and you will hear a deeper bass and a cleaner treble, with the center just on the point.
 (Best with metal feet, to have the circuit closed)

 Tubes are prone to catch all electricity (RF EMI) in the surroundings
 and after this if your tube is very wild go to the mesh
  
 Even looks like witches' things but it's what I found the best in these 45 years of experience listening to music through Tube Amps


----------



## frederick-rea

mordy
 I read a post from you on the Euforia treath about the discharge of the capacitors and switch Off / On referring to the time needed to wait to change the tubes. The discharge time of the capacitors is exactly the same in the 2 amplifiers, but in the Euphoria Lucasz improved the On/Off system to avoid spikes when switching Off, since when swithing On the spikes exists as well but are not audible (transmitted to the Headphone) because it takes some time to recharge the capacitors


----------



## richdytch

Well I got my replacement Valvo EL12 tube yesterday and ran with EL12 as powers and EL12N as drivers for the whole day. While it's a combination which is capable of dizzying transparency, I'm afraid it just lacks body on my system. It was a bit more tolerable with my Quad amp than when using the 25 watt Temple, but still sounded rather thin. I've switched back to EL12 and EL3N today and it's a much happier combo. Just about right for my setup. 
  
 From this experience, for me at least, I'd say that EL12N does a much better job as a power tube than it does as a driver.


----------



## mordy

Hi FR and h1,
  
 Thanks for clarifying - I guess I have to be patient when changing tubes. My usual rule is to wait until the tubes have cooled enough not to burn my fingers lol.


----------



## mordy

Hi rd,
  
 Everybody has a different system, and what is important is that you have the set-up that you are happy with. The only thought that goes through my mind is if you gave the tubes enough time to burn in - usually 30-50 hours (and much more for some types).


----------



## richdytch

mordy said:


> Hi rd,
> 
> Everybody has a different system, and what is important is that you have the set-up that you are happy with. The only thought that goes through my mind is if you gave the tubes enough time to burn in - usually 30-50 hours (and much more for some types).




Hi Mordy... yes, my EL12Ns have been used for probably 100 hours or so. I'm fairly sure that it's just down to my system sounding fairly lean - or neutral depending on your viewpoint.


----------



## DecentLevi

I got the Mazda EF86 tubes today with beautiful silver mesh plates. The size is surprisingly the exact same as my ECC88, 6N23p and 12AV7 tubes, so I would also consider EF86's to be "miniature tubes". The amount / size location of pins are also the same, so since my adapters didn't come in yet I'm wondering if it would be compatible with either of my ECC88 or 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapters? Of course I won't try it just based on 'fit', but just curious.


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh nevermind, I remember these are pentodes, so not likely compatible with normal sockets.
  

  
 but wait... hmmm... maybe I'll try these new 'lamps' as 'bells', or with my 'lantern'.
     
  
_  (my spin on a joke from earlier posts)_


----------



## mordy

HI DL,
  
 The pinout is different, so even though the tubes are the same size and have the same amount of pins, it will not work.
  
 The easiest way to find out if the pinouts are compatible, is to go to the Radiomuseum site. As an example, just type in Radiomuseum EF86 in the google search box, and it comes up. Under the usual picture of the tube you have a diagram of the pinouts. Just compare each letter and location to see if they are identical or not.
  
 This is the pinout for an ECC88 tube:
  





  
 This is the pinout for the EF86 tube:
  




  
 As you can see, the pinout is very different and not compatible.


----------



## frederick-rea

For music lovers opinion update: MQA/TIDAL
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0417/MQA_TIDAL.htm


----------



## HPLobster

frederick-rea said:


> For music lovers opinion update: MQA/TIDAL
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0417/MQA_TIDAL.htm


 
  
  
 https://mytekdigital.com/hifi/products/brooklyn/
  
 actually thinking about it...


----------



## DecentLevi

Got my EF86 adapters today and played around with them as drivers with a few types of powers... unfortunately the results were very discouraging.
  
 (As drivers)
 paired with either Mullard 6080 or GEC 6AS7G powers I get a massive channel imbalance to the order of 60-70%
 paired with Valvo EL12 the volume balance magically returns, yet with very poor sound reproduction:
  
 As I have heard clearly with all test songs and all above combos, the sound I'm getting from the Mazda EF86 tubes is:
 bright / thin with lacking body, dynamics and recessed mids. Also one section of a well known song with a high treble peak around 12khz was not properly reproduced, adding it's own squealing sound effect for several seconds afterward. 
  
 Putting in my next most comparable tube in size anyway, the relic miniature tube RCA 12AV7, I get radically improved refinement:
 clean / linear FR with velvety luscious mids and delicious dynamics, great bass definition / weight / body, and very accurate and realistic throughtout the entire spectrum. That is to say, a complete change of face making the EF86 trail far, far behind.
  
 Given the completely 'backwards' performance I'm getting from my first pair of EF86 and the fact that changes from tube burn-in are usually subtle, I can say with confidence these will never live up to my other miniature tubes, especially the Tungsram E80CC and 6N23P (1975 Reflektor version). 
  
 Also at least with my pair, it seems that somewhow these pentodes only pair with pentode powers. Perhaps someday I'll try another EF86 pair although not likely, but for now my impression is that either this brand was not made for audio, or not made for the Elise.


----------



## DecentLevi

What can I say, UT - thanks for the discovery but not all experiments work out for everybody. Though I do wonder if your EF86 on your system may yield drastically different results that I'm getting to warrant such great acclaim on your side.


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry it didn't work out for you DL and that you are getting such poor results.
Certainly not from what I heard.

However I'm pretty much a 6sn7 and 6as7/6080 guy now. I don't even roll with EL tubes.

It's just a decision that I've made soon after receiving Euforia. I'll stay with recommended tubes from here on.


----------



## Wreckgar7

Has anyone listened to The Sylvania 7236 tube? Got an opportunity to buy a pair for 30$, The tube rolling fingers are itching


----------



## mordy

Hi W7,
  
 Haven't heard the Sylvania 7236 tubes, but all accounts I read state that they are very different from the Tung Sol 7236, and that the TS sound better.


----------



## UntilThen

wreckgar7 said:


> Has anyone listened to The Sylvania 7236 tube? Got an opportunity to buy a pair for 30$, The tube rolling fingers are itching


 
  
 I've not had the opportunity to try Sylvania 7236 but I can't see how any tube can sound terrible on Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  With the exception of the chinese 6h13P. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Violin will sound violent. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have Tung Sol and Cetron 7236 and they sound the same, not surprising as Tung Sol was sold to Cetron in the later years.
  
 7236 remain 'one of my favourite' power tubes.


----------



## Wreckgar7

untilthen said:


> I've not had the opportunity to try Sylvania 7236 but I can't see how any tube can sound terrible on Elise. :wink_face:   With the exception of the chinese 6h13P. :tongue_smile:   Violin will sound violent. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> I have Tung Sol and Cetron 7236 and they sound the same, not surprising as Tung Sol was sold to Cetron in the later years.
> 
> 7236 remain 'one of my favourite' power tubes.



I agree, ive never had a bad experience with any tube combination with The Elise, well for 30$ it's definitely worth a try


----------



## frederick-rea

When we are rolling tubes we have to be sure that the origin - Recording and Mastering were well done. There are ways to know this. With the high resolution of ELISE, we are discovering what is being done at the level of non-audiophile discs, which show the huge errors in frequency, dynamics, balance and timbre. High definition amplifies errors. We chose before the good recordings and masterizations in addition to the taste for a certain genre of music. Not every CD/files are good to select tubes.
 An article regarding this:
 https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/ca-academy/dynamic-range-no-quiet-no-loud-r643/


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> What can I say, UT - thanks for the discovery but not all experiments work out for everybody. Though I do wonder if your EF86 on your system may yield drastically different results that I'm getting to warrant such great acclaim on your side.


 
  
 A bit late in the day but just for the record I've also now had the opportunity to try EF86 tubes, with dual EL12spez powers.
  
 First in the driving sockets were a pair of  EF86 RFT (branded Zaerix). Silent background, warm, neutral and smoothly boring, lacking dynamics for my taste but will suit some genres, cans and ears.
  
 Next a pair of EF86 Amperex and these were completely different. Dynamic and engaging, clear, sweet extended treble, nicely balanced mids and articulate bass.
  
 HD650 sounded very good indeed. No veil here. There is a little microphony if I touch the amp during play but it's silent otherwise. Generous sound-stage too, though not as wide as with Tungsram E80CC  drivers, but wider than ECC88 Bugle boys. Bugle Boys have even more inner detail and clarity though. I like all these. Here's a picture of the Amperex EF86 set-up.
  
  

  
  
 I should have added that as UT noted the vol pot needs to be set higher than with most other drivers-11 o'clock typically, instead of 8-9, but the sound doesn't suffer at all. There was always adequate headroom for the wide dynamics of a symphony orchestra.


----------



## Oskari

I also received the EF86 adapters. I hope to get to try the tubes soonish.

Can you identify the maker of the Amperexes, Howie?


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> I also received the EF86 adapters. I hope to get to try the tubes soonish.
> 
> Can you identify the maker of the Amperexes, Howie?


 
 Sorry, Oskar I don't know  but the best I can do is to give you the link to the seller where there is a good picture and maybe you will be able to identify the maker from there.
  
 Hope this helps;
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/EF86-AMPEREX-HOLLAND-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-LC29/262360600836?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&_trksid=p5197.c100068.m2280&_trkparms=ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140211130857%26meid%3Db270a1d070994f01a4ead76d2c3519ca%26pid%3D100068%26clkid%3D3698996376691626482&_qi=RTM2063723
  
 This link doesn't work for some reason on my computer, it's coming up with Vig Link shopping! (I've now disabled this).
  
 Anyway, if you ebay-uk EF86 Amperex you will see them in the yitry/Langrex listing.


----------



## Oskari

I tried and I cannot post it either. Somebody must have broken the stupid system.

If the Holland-part on the label is true, it's Philips. But the etched code tells the truth.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> I tried and I cannot post it either. Somebody must have broken the stupid system.
> 
> If the Holland-part on the label is true, it's Philips. But the etched code tells the truth.


 
 I can just make out_ 83 D5_ on one of the tubes. The mesh background makes it more difficult to see the lettering clearly.


----------



## Oskari

Must be something missing there. (If the factory code, D would be Valvo, Hamburg.)

(I shoukd have a couple of those somewhere.)


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Must be something missing there. (If the factory code, D would be Valvo, Hamburg.)


 
 Yes it's mostly difficult to discern but the D is clear.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Yes it's mostly difficult to discern but the D is clear.




If the D starts the second line, it's Valvo.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> If the D starts the second line, it's Valvo.


 
 The D is a bit below the 83 so I guess it is on the second line.
 Could it still be Valvo Hamburg if it says 'Made in Holland'?


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> The D is a bit below the 83 so I guess it is on the second line.
> Could it still be Valvo Hamburg if it says 'Made in Holland'?




Yes. They didn't much care about such minor details. 

I'd have to see a photo of the code to be sure.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Yes. They didn't much care about such minor details.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm a hopeless photographer and I can at best only capture the 'D'. The rest of the code can't be visualised in the photo.
 You can see it below the second L of  'Holland'.


----------



## UntilThen

I still haven't received my Mullard EF86.


----------



## mordy

And I am waiting for my EF86 adapters (18 days so far) and for my Russian 6J32P tubes. Also bought one bargain basement RFT rebranded 6267 because it was cheap.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> I'm a hopeless photographer and I can at best only capture the 'D'. The rest of the code can't be visualised in the photo.
> You can see it below the second L of  'Holland'.




Thanks. I give up. 

(If there are characters in front of the D, it's not the factory code.)


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Thanks. I give up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for trying to identify the maker, Oskar.
  
 There is a number 83 just before, but slightly above the D so the D could be at the start of the second line of the code.
  
 Anyway, I would say sound-wise it has the sweet treble I have associated with other Valvo tubes in the past.
  
 I may buy a spare pair and perhaps the code will be clearer on them. Will post if so.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Thanks for trying to identify the maker, Oskar.
> 
> There is a number 83 just before, but slightly above the D so the D could be at the start of the second line of the code.




That sounds more like B3D, which would be a Blackburn Mullard. :regular_smile :


----------



## UntilThen

howie13 said:


> A bit late in the day but just for the record I've also now had the opportunity to try EF86 tubes, with dual EL12spez powers.
> 
> First in the driving sockets were a pair of  EF86 RFT (branded Zaerix). Silent background, warm, neutral and smoothly boring, lacking dynamics for my taste but will suit some genres, cans and ears.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Howie for the feedback. At least your experience is unlike that of @DecentLevi 's VERY DISCOURAGING.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My ears and hearing cannot have gone that off. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EF86 is stellar sounding on Figaro and I find it to be so with Elise too.
  
 I did stop rolling non recommended tubes though. Reason being, as I was experimenting with EF86, EF80, I was also contemplating EL84. This could have been a good power tube. Then I check myself. I was going utterly tangentially in the direction of pentodes. Nah, I'm returning to the rivers of innocence, to where it all began with Elise and Euforia - 6sn7 and 6as7/6080. I might pick up some choice 6sn7 and gec 6as7g at a later stage.
  
 But enjoy and nice to read your reports and experiments with other tubes. I know I can count on your impressions.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> That sounds more like B3D, which would be a Blackburn Mullard.


 
 Oskar-you are a genius!
  
 Now in daylight I see what I thought was an 8 is in fact a B, which would indeed make the code B3D followed by a 5. Maybe Blackburn, 5th week of 1963.
  
 I think I will get a spare or two, as, for me, they are very good tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

untilthen said:


> Thanks Howie for the feedback. At least your experience is unlike that of @DecentLevi 's VERY DISCOURAGING.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You are quite right. Too many variables to adequately evaluate. Back to basics with your lovely new Euforia.
  
 For the present you can indeed entrust tube rolling to your Scottish TWIN


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Hello All,
  
 As a newbie to this forum, with a fair experience with both new hifi (Chord Electronics, Mr Speakers, Feliks Audio, Dynaudio, Cyrus, KEF, Rega & Campfire Audio) & older amplification (Quad - valve & transistor, Croft & Linn) I am very keen to learn about both tube rolling and the different headphone/DAC/amp combos that work with the different impedance headphones. I have a Feliks Audio Elise that I am new too. All the reviews for this amp that I can find and have read are glowing - excuse the pun, It would seem, by the reviews I have read, that this amp prefers higher impedance headphones, Feliks recommend an impedance of 32-600ohm impedance for the headphones. I have placed an order for the new Aeon having listened to it recently at Head-Room London, it has a published impedance of 32ohm so is at the low end of the range for the Feliks. Will I be able to use these fabulous new headphones with the Elise? If so, & with respect to your vast experience of tube rolling, could you please make a recommendation of which tubes you would recommend for a low impedance planar headphone as the Aeon & the Elise as a combo?
  
 Any feedback is much appreciated.


----------



## frederick-rea

Hi SMF. You are wellcome here
 I use a closed HF with 20 ohms (Audeze) impedance and it works wonderfully, even with an OTL amp as ELISE
  
 I know this a tube rolling thread but for a better service to ourselves and to Elise I recommend this, for computer audition with USB input:
 http://usbdisruptor.com/usb-disruptor-works/


----------



## HOWIE13

snappermusicfan said:


> Hello All,
> 
> As a newbie to this forum, with a fair experience with both new hifi (Chord Electronics, Mr Speakers, Feliks Audio, Dynaudio, Cyrus, KEF, Rega & Campfire Audio) & older amplification (Quad - valve & transistor, Croft & Linn) I am very keen to learn about both tube rolling and the different headphone/DAC/amp combos that work with the different impedance headphones. I have a Feliks Audio Elise that I am new too. All the reviews for this amp that I can find and have read are glowing - excuse the pun, It would seem, by the reviews I have read, that this amp prefers higher impedance headphones, Feliks recommend an impedance of 32-600ohm impedance for the headphones. I have placed an order for the new Aeon having listened to it recently at Head-Room London, it has a published impedance of 32ohm so is at the low end of the range for the Feliks. Will I be able to use these fabulous new headphones with the Elise? If so, & with respect to your vast experience of tube rolling, could you please make a recommendation of which tubes you would recommend for a low impedance planar headphone as the Aeon & the Elise as a combo?
> 
> Any feedback is much appreciated.


 
 Welcome SMF.
  
 Many on this thread have found very good synergy between Elise and lower impedance headphones, though the only way to be sure is to listen for yourself.
  
 As to tube rolling, my advice would be to use the perfectly good stock tubes to allow Elise to settle in for about 200 hours and then let us know what you think about the sound and, if need be, how it could be improved for you.
  
 We would then be in a better position to advise since most of us know how the stock tubes sound in Elise and therefore could use them as a yardstick to help you.
  
 Meantime I would save your money as tube rolling can be very addictive.
  
 PS. I started in the world of HiFi with a 33/303- that was a long time ago!


----------



## Spork67

snappermusicfan said:


> Hello All,
> 
> As a newbie to this forum, with a fair experience with both new hifi (Chord Electronics, Mr Speakers, Feliks Audio, Dynaudio, Cyrus, KEF, Rega & Campfire Audio) & older amplification (Quad - valve & transistor, Croft & Linn) I am very keen to learn about both tube rolling and the different headphone/DAC/amp combos that work with the different impedance headphones. I have a Feliks Audio Elise that I am new too. All the reviews for this amp that I can find and have read are glowing - excuse the pun, It would seem, by the reviews I have read, that this amp prefers higher impedance headphones, Feliks recommend an impedance of 32-600ohm impedance for the headphones. I have placed an order for the new Aeon having listened to it recently at Head-Room London, it has a published impedance of 32ohm so is at the low end of the range for the Feliks. Will I be able to use these fabulous new headphones with the Elise? If so, & with respect to your vast experience of tube rolling, could you please make a recommendation of which tubes you would recommend for a low impedance planar headphone as the Aeon & the Elise as a combo?
> 
> Any feedback is much appreciated.


 
 I had 25 ohm HPs when I first got the Elise. Lucaz assured me Selise would work with them - and she did.
 I preferred them to the 50 (iirc) ohm HE-400i.
 The Beyer T1 were the best sounding - but at double the $ of the others I don't know if it was the 600 ohms or just a better HP that made the difference.
 My one regret is not trying HD-800.
  
 I found the tubes that sounded great with lower z cans also sounded the best with high z cans...


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Now in daylight I see what I thought was an 8 is in fact a B, which would indeed make the code B3D followed by a 5. Maybe Blackburn, 5th week of 1963.




Yes, fifth week of April 1963. Well, could be 1973.


----------



## DecentLevi

edit - wrong thread


----------



## DecentLevi

frederick-rea said:


> When we are rolling tubes we have to be sure that the origin - Recording and Mastering were well done. There are ways to know this. With the high resolution of ELISE, we are discovering what is being done at the level of non-audiophile discs, which show the huge errors in frequency, dynamics, balance and timbre. High definition amplifies errors. We chose before the good recordings and masterizations in addition to the taste for a certain genre of music. Not every CD/files are good to select tubes.
> An article regarding this:
> https://www.computeraudiophile.com/ca/ca-academy/dynamic-range-no-quiet-no-loud-r643/


 
 Certainly a hi-end rig such as with the Elise can bring into the light which albums are mastered well or not, now that we're taken 'closer to the truth' of the recording with all attributes heightened. I however have found that I prefer a good amp system even for poorly recorded albums, because I can still use EQ and / or more roll more 'forgiving' stock-_ish_ tubes that can still make it sound acceptable.


----------



## UntilThen

Quick guys bid for this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/222455151949?ul_noapp=true


----------



## UntilThen

That pair of TS 6sn7 sold for US $426.

Ridiculous.


----------



## connieflyer

I hate to say it but my pair look a look newer and in better condition than that pair, maybe I better sale while the freebies are being spread around


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps this will calm you down some, Jackson Berkey, on piano, of Mannheim Steamroller fame....


----------



## connieflyer

or perhaps something a little different  Jessy Sykes


----------



## connieflyer

Have to get one for @pctazhp so he can relax


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## pctazhp

I don't know about no Whispering Winds, but I do know The Wayward Wind


----------



## pctazhp

Good night Mrs. Calabash (and you too @connieflyer), wherever you are


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

howie13 said:


> Welcome SMF.
> 
> Many on this thread have found very good synergy between Elise and lower impedance headphones, though the only way to be sure is to listen for yourself.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Howie13, will be in touch when the Elise has had a good burn in, along with the cans.


spork67 said:


> I had 25 ohm HPs when I first got the Elise. Lucaz assured me Selise would work with them - and she did.
> I preferred them to the 50 (iirc) ohm HE-400i.
> The Beyer T1 were the best sounding - but at double the $ of the others I don't know if it was the 600 ohms or just a better HP that made the difference.
> My one regret is not trying HD-800.
> ...


 
 Many thanks for your feedback.


----------



## thatonenoob

Hi Guys, finally got around to doing my review (super long delay, I know).  
  
 The written review is up *here!*


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> That pair of TS 6sn7 sold for US $426.
> 
> Ridiculous.


 
  
 UT, maybe look for these instead, they sound the same
  

  
  
 If these are still to expensive, maybe look for 6SN7 rebrands...this says RCA....but it is actually a TSBGRP and I have been able to snag a few of these pretty cheap over the years....
  

  
  

  
  
 I agree, some of these tubes have gotten out of hand....but even when you think there are no deals to be had....one will finally appear....be persistent


----------



## frederick-rea

decentlevi said:


> frederick-rea said:
> 
> 
> > When we are rolling tubes we have to be sure that the origin - Recording and Mastering were well done. There are ways to know this. With the high resolution of ELISE, we are discovering what is being done at the level of non-audiophile discs, which show the huge errors in frequency, dynamics, balance and timbre. High definition amplifies errors. We chose before the good recordings and masterizations in addition to the taste for a certain genre of music. Not every CD/files are good to select tubes.
> ...


 
 Over the years I became totally intolerant of bad masterings as much as a scratch or background noise on a vinyl record. I prefer NOT SO GOOD audio systems to listen to BAD masterings and when there is a revealing system like ELISE I demand the best masterizations


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> UT, maybe look for these instead, they sound the same
> 
> If these are still to expensive, maybe look for 6SN7 rebrands...this says RCA....but it is actually a TSBGRP and I have been able to snag a few of these pretty cheap over the years....
> 
> I agree, some of these tubes have gotten out of hand....but even when you think there are no deals to be had....one will finally appear....be persistent


 
  
 Thanks and nice pictures WW. Your tube collection is indeed quite awesome. I'll be collecting more of 6sn7 and variants as time goes by.


----------



## UntilThen

thatonenoob said:


> Hi Guys, finally got around to doing my review (super long delay, I know).
> 
> The written review is up *here!*


 
  
 Hi Ton (quite a nice abbreviation of your sign on name), let me be the first to congratulate you on a review that is unashamedly praising of Elise as she so deserves. A well written, concise review that is not your typical gear review. It is original and frank opinion of one who has taken the time to really evaluate Elise before spewing out the findings.
  
 I too agree that Elise and also Euforia has Feliks Audio house sound. It's a sound that has captivated me for 1.5 years and will continue to do so in the years to come.
  
 The appeal of Elise is so great to me that I will be sending her back to Feliks Audio for a renewal. I intend to keep both Elise and Euforia. They shall be the centrepiece of my head-fi setup.
  
 Cheers,
 UT


----------



## connieflyer

I too enjoy the Feliks sound, and also agree that ELise and Eforia have a similar sound, the latter is a bit more open and resolving. I will stay with the Euforia for awhile and see how it progresses, fi I find it to be what I want to hear for the most part, I will stay with just the one amp.  I have already sold my Elise, so no going back. In the near future, I may evaluate the amp more closely as it gets to the point that it is fully burned in, if I am still really impressed with it that will be my main amp.  If I find it wanting in any way then I will be buying McIntosh Labs MHA150 Headphone Amplifier and just be done with it. I demoed it a week ago, and will be going back to demo it for a longer period of time, in a few weeks.  I really like what I hear, and of course there are those blue meters!


----------



## angpsi

thatonenoob said:


> Hi Guys, finally got around to doing my review (super long delay, I know).
> 
> The written review is up *here!*




  
  


untilthen said:


> Hi Ton (quite a nice abbreviation of your sign on name), let me be the first to congratulate you on a review that is unashamedly praising of Elise as she so deserves. A well written, concise review that is not your typical gear review. It is original and frank opinion of one who has taken the time to really evaluate Elise before spewing out the findings.
> 
> I too agree that Elise and also Euforia has Feliks Audio house sound. It's a sound that has captivated me for 1.5 years and will continue to do so in the years to come.
> 
> ...


 
 Now that I'm rolling with all–TFK EL12 (not spez, since today) / EL11 everybody seems to go kosher and appreciate the Feliks house sound!  Although I haven't heard the Tung–Sol reissues to compare, I believe the praise has a lot to do with the Psvanes and the way they complement the Svetlanas. It's been over two weeks that I've left the combo in my drawer but I still remember the qualities that @thatonenoob aptly describes; in fact I'm quite relieved to see people with experience concur with my original impressions. As for my current setup, TFK EL12/11 give me less of a thump which I find much more pleasurable to my ears. I don't know if it's the spez or the reintroduction of the EL11 to the driver seat but I'm quite enjoying the combo.
  
 Glad you're keeping the Elise @UntilThen, I think she deserves the love. Also, @hypnos1's report on the comparison between the Euforia and the Questyle on the other thread made me think that perhaps going kosher just means we're keeping with the sound signature that distinguishes valves from solid state. But I'm just rambling here, I'm still very new to the valve amplification scene and I have very low milage in comparing between different headphones and hp amps. I'd love to know your opinion though.
  
 Well done @thatonenoob, very thorough and informative review! Keep it up!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Now that I'm rolling with all–TFK EL12 (not spez, since today) / EL11 everybody seems to go kosher and appreciate the Feliks house sound!  Although I haven't heard the Tung–Sol reissues to compare, I believe the praise has a lot to do with the Psvanes and the way they complement the Svetlanas. It's been over two weeks that I've left the combo in my drawer but I still remember the qualities that @thatonenoob aptly describes; in fact I'm quite relieved to see people with experience concur with my original impressions. As for my current setup, TFK EL12/11 give me less of a thump which I find much more pleasurable to my ears. I don't know if it's the spez or the reintroduction of the EL11 to the driver seat but I'm quite enjoying the combo.
> 
> Glad you're keeping the Elise @UntilThen, I think she deserves the love.


 
  
 I'm on Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Cetron 7236 now. Next week I'll let you know what tubes I'm running. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Elise is the first amp that I bought that cost US$649. That's > AUD$1000 in Oct 2015. Now it's only AUD$855 ?
  
 Then I bought Euforia at US$1200...... 
  
 and why wouldn't I keep both? They look good together.


----------



## hypnos1

Quote:
  


frederick-rea said:


> Hi SMF. You are wellcome here
> I use a closed HF with 20 ohms (Audeze) impedance and it works wonderfully, even with an OTL amp as ELISE
> 
> I know this a tube rolling thread but for a better service to ourselves and to Elise I recommend this, for computer audition with USB input:
> http://usbdisruptor.com/usb-disruptor-works/


 
  
 First, I too would like to say WELCOME to fellow Suffolkite @SnapperMusicFan, and well done for choosing the Elise....you won't be disappointed lol! You bring a wealth of product experience with you, and will obviously be a great asset here. And I also am very impressed with how some Audeze HPs can sound with Elise...really like the LCD XC - apart from the weight!!
  
 Re. USB and PC/laptop, my friend Olli swears by the M2Tech HiFace 2 USB to coax converter/reclocker...it certainly does wonders from his laptop to coax in on his Chord Mojo - if this is relevant to your post, that is! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


thatonenoob said:


> Hi Guys, finally got around to doing my review (super long delay, I know).
> 
> The written review is up *here!*




  
 Great review, ton...and thanks for taking so much time and trouble to do it - perhaps many folks don't realise just what time and effort is involved in such ventures! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...


----------



## thatonenoob

untilthen said:


> Hi Ton


 
 Hi UT!  Gotta love the abbreviation -thanks.  The Elise is really quite something to me - especially considering the market that exists in. Nowadays with amps climbing to over 3k unabashedly, it's really hard not to appreciate the fact that the Elise is so reasonably priced, yet great sounding.  Plus, the house sound is simply addictive -_elegant_.
  


connieflyer said:


> I too enjoy the Feliks sound, and also agree that ELise and Eforia have a similar sound, the latter is a bit more open and resolving. I will stay with the Euforia for awhile and see how it progresses, fi I find it to be what I want to hear for the most part, I will stay with just the one amp.  I have already sold my Elise, so no going back. In the near future, I may evaluate the amp more closely as it gets to the point that it is fully burned in, if I am still really impressed with it that will be my main amp.  If I find it wanting in any way then I will be buying McIntosh Labs MHA150 Headphone Amplifier and just be done with it. I demoed it a week ago, and will be going back to demo it for a longer period of time, in a few weeks.  I really like what I hear, and of course there are those blue meters!


 
 Sounds like a plan!
  
  


angpsi said:


> Now that I'm rolling with all–TFK EL12 (not spez, since today) / EL11 everybody seems to go kosher and appreciate the Feliks house sound!  Although I haven't heard the Tung–Sol reissues to compare, I believe the praise has a lot to do with the Psvanes and the way they complement the Svetlanas. It's been over two weeks that I've left the combo in my drawer but I still remember the qualities that @thatonenoob aptly describes; in fact I'm quite relieved to see people with experience concur with my original impressions. As for my current setup, TFK EL12/11 give me less of a thump which I find much more pleasurable to my ears. I don't know if it's the spez or the reintroduction of the EL11 to the driver seat but I'm quite enjoying the combo.
> 
> Glad you're keeping the Elise @UntilThen, I think she deserves the love. Also, @hypnos1's report on the comparison between the Euforia and the Questyle on the other thread made me think that perhaps going kosher just means we're keeping with the sound signature that distinguishes valves from solid state. But I'm just rambling here, I'm still very new to the valve amplification scene and I have very low milage in comparing between different headphones and hp amps. I'd love to know your opinion though.
> 
> Well done @thatonenoob, very thorough and informative review! Keep it up!


 
 Thanks, and the all TFK E12 certainly sounds interesting!  It's like ACDC's Back in Black....but erh "Back in Grey?" instead.  Gotta say, the Elise is very different from some of the current mode Questyle stuff (probs also due to the fact that Questyle is current mode).  Questyle CMA600i wasn't my kinda sound - fast, resolving, needs bass thump and a little harsh.  The CMA800i was a bit more mellow, but the dynamics were definitely spot on. Clear improvement over the 600i (something tells me that the AKM implementation in the 600i may have something to do with this too). Feliks is more euphonic, and most likely it's gonna be hard to replace - very few SS can achieve tube sound without significant compromises.  Cavalli's house sound is one of the few that I've been impressed by.
  
  


hypnos1 said:


> Great review, ton...and thanks for taking so much time and trouble to do it - perhaps many folks don't realise just what time and effort is involved in such ventures!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It's a great piece of gear - totally worth the time and effort!  Cheers


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I too enjoy the Feliks sound, and also agree that ELise and Eforia have a similar sound, the latter is a bit more open and resolving. I will stay with the Euforia for awhile and see how it progresses, fi I find it to be what I want to hear for the most part, I will stay with just the one amp.  I have already sold my Elise, so no going back. In the near future, I may evaluate the amp more closely as it gets to the point that it is fully burned in, if I am still really impressed with it that will be my main amp.  If I find it wanting in any way then I will be buying McIntosh Labs MHA150 Headphone Amplifier and just be done with it. I demoed it a week ago, and will be going back to demo it for a longer period of time, in a few weeks.  I really like what I hear, and of course there are those blue meters!


 
  
  
 CF, I'll give you those blue meters. Just buy these and put in front of Elise... eh in your case Euforia.


----------



## connieflyer

Quick UT get those in the mail they look great thank you for your offer I really appreciate it


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48H3Pcep65s[/VIDEO]

Hon är så söt


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Quick UT get those in the mail they look great thank you for your offer I really appreciate it


 

*BLUE-SMOOO* !!!!  Don't you and UT realize this is a serious thread for serious minded folks?????  Please listen to this as many times as it takes and return here when you think you can behave yourself.
  

  
 PS. Just because the Euforia LED is white instead of blue doesn't mean you have to spend $4,500 to get blue.


----------



## connieflyer

If they would have been green I would pay more!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> If they would have been green I would pay more!


 

 Don't you know:


----------



## connieflyer

In all seriousness, I have not bought that amp yet. I want to roll a couple  of more tubes to see how it goes.  I like what I hear with the El11-12n, am going back through the combo's I liked with the Elise and after all that then decide.


----------



## connieflyer

And after the frog video well "What is there to say"


----------



## connieflyer

As ordered by senior staff!  "Ribit, ribit" or "Thank you Mr. PCT" )))"


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> In all seriousness, I have not bought that amp yet. I want to roll a couple  of more tubes to see how it goes.  I like what I hear with the El11-12n, am going back through the combo's I liked with the Elise and after all that then decide.


 

 Life without tubes is like chocolate cake without ketchup, or something like that. Does Connor know you may soon be taking up dog biscuit rolling???


----------



## connieflyer

He is not talking now, thunderstorm's make him disappear. You would not think a dog this big would be bothered by mere storms!


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *BLUE-SMOOO* !!!!  Don't you and UT realize this is a serious thread for serious minded folks?????


 
  
 We're saving the best for the last. Now we need some serious adapters.


----------



## windcar

untilthen said:


> We're saving the best for the last. Now we need some serious adapters.


 
  
 That pic.... seriously looks like a wanking job


----------



## UntilThen

Elise is packed and ready to be shipped back to Poland tomorrow. To be fitted with blue meters.
  
 And this song came on. What a classic.


----------



## connieflyer

untilthen said:


> Elise is packed and ready to be shipped back to Poland tomorrow. To be fitted with blue meters.
> 
> And this song came on. What a classic.





 Blue meters are an essential part of the listening experience. Neat song, glad people don't get spit on now like they used to when we came back. Now they are treated with respect, And it is about time. thanks for this


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

hypnos1 said:


> First, I too would like to say WELCOME to fellow Suffolkite @SnapperMusicFan, and well done for choosing the Elise....you won't be disappointed lol! You bring a wealth of product experience with you, and will obviously be a great asset here. And I also am very impressed with how some Audeze HPs can sound with Elise...really like the LCD XC - apart from the weight!!
> 
> Re. USB and PC/laptop, my friend Olli swears by the M2Tech HiFace 2 USB to coax converter/reclocker...it certainly does wonders from his laptop to coax in on his Chord Mojo - if this is relevant to your post, that is!
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Hypnos1,
  
 Thanks for the warm welcome, I've been playing with a USB re-clocker from ifi audio, link below, seems to do the job, interesting to hear the difference. Never tried a coax converter re-clocker be interested to try it with the Mojo.
  
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/nano-iusb3-0/
  
 Does anyone know of, or come across any fake Psvane UK-6SN7 matched pairs on eBay, there's a lot advertised at very reasonable prices?


----------



## mordy

Hi SMF,
  
 IMHO those less expensive Psvane UK 6SN7 tubes just reflect the market value - don't think that they are fake. Saw a write-up from an expensive vendor where they insinuated that the cheap prices are due to selling B-stock and tubes that did not pass quality control.
  
 At the same time the factory site stated that any defective tubes are destroyed.
  
 The main bulk of fake tubes that I have seen are Russian tubes re-labeled with expensive brand names. They are usually easy to spot due to the construction details.


----------



## mordy

Here is hot new turntable:
  





 
  
 Inspired by concrete headphones.....


----------



## Oskari

WTH, I cannot insert the tubes into the EF86 adapters! It shouldn't be this difficult! :mad:


----------



## tjw321

oskari said:


> WTH, I cannot insert to tubes into the EF86 adapters! It shouldn't be this difficult!


 
 I really struggled. In the end I kind of reversed the usual way I get tubes out of the sockets by kind of wiggling it in a circular motion and easing it in gradually.


----------



## Oskari

OK, guys. Don't buy these adapters. In fact, don't buy anything with these useless noval sockets. I broke a tube. I'm not happy.


----------



## Oskari

Left a note or three. Gave some friendly advice. Will be getting a replacement pair. We'll see how that goes.


----------



## Oskari

Is this a monologue?


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 No.


----------



## mordy

Hi O,
  
 A dialogue.
  
 Just received my pair of EF86 adapters but I am still waiting for the tubes I ordered. Since people seems to have trouble with these adapters i tried a Russian 9pin tube to see how it fit. One adapter was fine, but the other was harder to push in, and once the tube was seated it looked like the leaning tower of Pisa because the disc holding the socket was slanted and at an angle.
  




  
 Emailed the seller who gave me somewhat of a hard time, asking if the tube was defective. He/she finally got the message and I am getting a replacement.
  
 The question is if they are responsible for your broken tube.....


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> The question is if they are responsible for your broken tube.....




One can ask that. Personally I value my time and sanity.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> No.




That's good to know. I don't think I do monologues.


----------



## Oskari

Oh, and that "tower" is ridiculous.


----------



## mordy

Hi O,
  
 We all know that you are a man of few words, so I just tried your style for fun. But you are right - IMHO it is futile to make a claim about such a thing as a broken or shorted tube caused by a faulty adapter.
  
 Re the slanted adapter, it probably works, but aesthetically it looks strange.


----------



## Oskari

Well, I prefer concision.


----------



## thatonenoob

oskari said:


> Well, I prefer concision.


 
 Brevitas.


----------



## Oskari

thatonenoob said:


> Brevitas.




I do not disagree.


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> My problem with the EL12N: can't get black background. It's not loud but I know it's there. Well, more troubleshooting. :mad:




That was with the EL3N + the EL12N.

With the stock reissue TS drivers, the problem is almost nonexistent. Unfortunately, this combination isn't exactly enticing.

P.S. Yes, I'm slow if you haven't noticed yet.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > No.
> ...


 
  
 Oskari, you have made me come out of tube rolling retirement. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I haven't tried Svetlana EF86 in Euforia ever since a slight hum develop out of no where but my brand spanking new NOS NIB Mullard EF86s arrived from Langrex. It took almost 4 weeks and I was about to lodge a refund and claim non arrival. 
  
 Anyhoo, this morning I broke my resolution not to use non recommended tubes - just to hear how these EF86s sound again in Euforia. I have no trouble getting the tube into those noval sockets because I've done this many times. However I agree with you that my 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapters are a pain in the .... until today I still couldn't get the 6BQ7A tube into those 9 pin noval adapters properly and when it did, it would hum like a canary.
  
 Alright back to the Mullard EF86 in combination with Mullard 6080, it is totally silent after 5 minutes warm up with no music playing. Then I start playing Norah Jones 'Chasing Pirates' and it started to sing and I knew why I was so captivated with the EF86 when I first tried it in Elise - a tone as good if not better than any of my 6SN7 - granted my 6SN7s are rather low cost ones.
  
 SO there you go, I'm chasing pirate tubes again... for a while at least. Typical of a pentode used as a strapped triode, the EF86 has a larger presence while still maintaining good resolution, clarity and details.


----------



## UntilThen

These are the Mullard EF86 that I bought at GBP 28 each or US$34.70
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/EF86-MULLARD-ENGLAND-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-/311596180204?hash=item488c9462ec:gwQAAOSwd3dXF2LS
  
 3 songs on and it's sounding even better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 For @richard89 I spin in canto pop star Danny Chan's 'Cherish Tonight' and it sounded very good with the Mullard combination - tragically Danny died in 1993 after being in a coma for 17 months.


----------



## Oskari

UT, there is sublime music which will always sound great (see 'Chasing Pirates').

About those sockets, they're crap. They are not consistent. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> UT, there is sublime music which will always sound great (see 'Chasing Pirates').
> 
> About those sockets, they're crap. They are not consistent. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.


 
  
 I agree that there are some of the 9 pins noval adapters that are inconsistent. I much prefer the 8 pins octal. You obviously have 'bad' adapters - contact Mrs Xuling for a replacement.
  
 I wonder if tube amps design for 9 pins noval tubes have any such problems. Obviously not because I don't hear anyone complaining about 6922/6DJ8 in their Woo Audio Wa2.
  
 I think it's just these 3rd party adapters - some batch are dodgy. 
  
 Ps.. it's a painful experience breaking any tubes. I still feel badly breaking my Svetlana 6h13c in Euforia. Those sockets are really tight. They are a bit less tight now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Pss. . I wiggle my EF86 into the adapter to get it in.


----------



## UntilThen

Lastly, I don't like adapters now and try to stay away from them as much as I can. That is the reason for returning to 6sn7 and 6as7 / 6080 in Elise and Euforia.


----------



## Oskari

The substandard sockets are the problem.


----------



## mordy

I just got my first single tube EF86 - still waiting for a pair of Svetlanas from Russia. I knew that one of the adapters was OK because I had tried it with a 9pin tube, and it was easy to insert the tube.
  
 Why only one tube? Because I could not resist a rebranded National 6267/EF86 tube made in West Germany. A quick refresher course at eBay University dept EF86/6267 taught me that this must be a RFT tube. It was cheap enough to try.
  
 It lights up and makes sounds, but paired with an EL12N the volume is much lower than the EL11/EL12N, so it is hard to judge the sound yet.
  
 Hope to have the Svetlanas soon - from experience shipments from Russia take a month or more. Listening to the RFT on one channel it sounds pretty good, but I have to reserve judgment until I have a pair.


----------



## UntilThen

After an hour I'm back to Psvane 6sn7 and Mullard 6080. Nothing lacking here. A great tone and very neat. Lukasz must be smiling that I'm now an advocate for recommended tubes. 
  
 Cheers Lukasz and don't forget to paint my Elise 'Ferrari red' !!!


----------



## Oskari

At this point, I prefer the GEC 6080s as powers. The EL12Ns sound somehow incoherent. For now.


----------



## angpsi

In the spirit of honesty among peers, I must confess to finally submitting to the EL12/11's allure.
  
 Apparently going all TFK and substituting the 12spez for regular 12st did the trick for me; my two TFK EL12st as powers, and two TFK EL11 as drivers have bloomed into a full, coherent, round, spacious and resolving sound... to the point that I eventually found myself *unable to revert to the Svetlana and Psvane 'stock' combo!* (*For newcomers, I have to clarify that I used to be the minority report during the days of praise for the EL tubes.) @hypnos1, @UntilThen and the rest of the _EL_ise pioneers in this wonderful thread, you can now rightfully tell me that you told me so!
  
 Haven't tried classical yet, but for jazz etc. these tubes seem to have grown into a definitive no–brainer... I think the normal TFK EL12st just rounded the 'oomph' harshness out of the HD600s. I'll probably dig out the RFT EL11 to cross–check what the homonymous TFK do for their part; but I think they're basically the same tube, aren't they?
  
 Writing these lines as I'm listening to this wonderfully remastered album on TIDAL: https://tidal.com/album/16705109.
  

  
 EDIT: It works with classical too - just spent the last few hours listening to various performances of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9:

J E Gardiner's version: https://tidal.com/album/4401814
Celibidache (thanks for the education @HPLobster!): https://tidal.com/album/1444057
H v Karajan: https://tidal.com/album/4723773
and the very powerful Solti: https://tidal.com/album/4725702
  
 What a sweet, powerful and involving sound; an Ode to joy indeed... Next I'm gonna move to trying Stravinsky's shriek (as per here) but I doubt that's gonna change my opinion.
  
 EDIT 2: Stravinsky tamed. Either this, or my ears have adjusted to the tubes! Oh, and my HD600s are galloping around like a thoroughbred (excuse my OTT language)! Now listening to this curiosity, coming straight from a HiFi+ review of the Final Audio Sonorous III: https://tidal.com/album/643771


----------



## angpsi

Incredible...
  
 I don't want to go back home. (But I have to.) Signing off.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Either this, or my ears have adjusted to the tubes!


 
  
 That's what it is. Your ears have adjusted to the tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I ain't too fussed about tubes now. Running Psvane 6sn7 and Bendix 6080wb slotted graphite plates now and it's exquisite.


----------



## UntilThen

GEC 6as7g is terribly over-rated IMO. I had a pair on Euforia during the meet, courtesy of another member there. Whilst it sounded good, it was not head and shoulders over the other choice power tubes for me. I could have like Tung Sol 5998 and Bendix 6080wb equally or even more. Even Mullard 6080 sounds very good on Euforia now.
  
 This used pair begins bidding at US$625 is outrageous. 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6AS7G-A1834-Perfectly-matched-tested-genuine-GEC-/272627950707?hash=item3f79e46473:g:m3AAAOSwpP9Y7axu


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> In the spirit of honesty among peers, I must confess to finally submitting to the EL12/11's allure.
> 
> Apparently going all TFK and substituting the 12spez for regular 12st did the trick for me; my two TFK EL12st as powers, and two TFK EL11 as drivers have bloomed into a full, coherent, round, spacious and resolving sound... to the point that I eventually found myself *unable to revert to the Svetlana and Psvane 'stock' combo!* (*For newcomers, I have to clarify that I used to be the minority report during the days of praise for the EL tubes.) @hypnos1, @UntilThen and the rest of the _EL_ise pioneers in this wonderful thread, you can now rightfully tell me that you told me so!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi angpsi....a real convert indeed to EL land - glad your ears have finally 'tuned in' to their full magic. There's no going back for me either, I have to admit lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Interesting how you now prefer the ST12s over the Spezs...yet another example of system 'synergy' at work, I suspect! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (would be interesting to see how you would find things with the T1s as opposed to the HD600s....).
  
 But, I fear the use of price-compromised adapters will also have a bearing here - an unfortunate Catch22 situation for those who can't adapt their own tubes, alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. And especially with the Spezs - if Ferrite chokes are used as interference suppressors, I suspect these might also have a very slight detrimental effect on sound at the same time as actually making the tubes listenable lol! (as has been found sometimes in other situations where they are used). The same goes for adding 'grid stopper resistors' in pentodes to help alleviate possible interference problems - I (and others) have found they can indeed negatively impact the sound....Catch22 once again! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And I'm firmly convinced that the much cooler running of the amp with these EL tubes can only be a real benefit - one which I don't think F-A have fully appreciated IMHO!! But thankfully, great results can indeed be had from a wide variety of stock config'n tubes - here in Euforia, as with Elise (if not _*more*_​ so! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## frederick-rea

hypnos1 said:


> angpsi said:
> 
> 
> > In the spirit of honesty among peers, I must confess to finally submitting to the EL12/11's allure.
> ...


 
 1 - Ferrite effect - does not degrade sound
 2 - This is ELISE thread


----------



## angpsi

frederick-rea said:


> 1 - Ferrite effect - does not degrade sound
> 2 - This is ELISE thread


 

 Hi @frederick-rea,
  
 1. good to know, since you personally have mileage with ferrites.
 2. but @hypnos1 obviously has the necessary background to comment on both the Elise and the ELise, despite the fact that he's moved on to new ventures!
  


hypnos1 said:


> Hi angpsi....a real convert indeed to EL land - glad your ears have finally 'tuned in' to their full magic. There's no going back for me either, I have to admit lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi @hypnos1, personally I 'blame' the HD600 for the greater part of my adventures: for one thing they seem to be ruthlessly honest with their background, and they also have this very narrow sense of soundstage that just puts _everything_ crammed up into you head! I've written to a fellow Greek Head-fier in hope to audition his Beyer T1s and confirm this impression. But now that everything's opened up with the TFK EL11/12 I can hear incredible differences according to the make of each particular album (granted, that should be the case with all audiophile grade systems).
  
 On a final note, I'm still concerned whether the ELs are trying to bring the Elise into SS territory. If I get my hands on an SS loaner without much pain (or bring myself to 'borrow' my Benchmark DAC1 from my home system) I'll try to compare and see if that claim has any validation whatsoever.


----------



## frederick-rea

angpsi said:


> frederick-rea said:
> 
> 
> > 1 - Ferrite effect - does not degrade sound
> ...


 
 Surely H1 has the knowledge and the right to comment here, but by the last bold sentence seemed to me that he would be mistaken in the thread. He wrote "...here in Euforia, as with Elise (if not _*more*_​ so! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)." which leads me to this interpretation. Far from me questioning the legitimacy of each one, although it has already been done in Euforia thread. If I do not feel comfortable here, I left by my own foot as I made in Euforia thread


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Hi @frederick-rea,
> 
> 1. good to know, since you personally have mileage with ferrites.
> 2. but @hypnos1 obviously has the necessary background to comment on both the Elise and the ELise, despite the fact that he's moved on to new ventures!
> ...


 
  
 That's great news how the ELs take the HD600s to a whole new level, angpsi - in combination with ELISE, of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for entering SS territory, with these tubes especially, I personally think our amps are doing a marvellous job of _almost _achieving the impossible - ie. combining the better qualities of SS with those of tubes, which I'm sure is no bad thing?! This will be another interesting area for comparison when I get my Chord Hugo 2 DAC/Amp, as will your own experiment lol....
  
 And it would appear I need to apologise for mistaking the thread I posted on recently, and which you yourself were obviously gracious enough to recognise as such. But I must admit I have never in the whole time since the first introduction of Elise seen an honest, trivial mistake jumped upon in such a manner as mine was by the member in question.
  
 When we make any statements, we must of course expect possible questioning/challenging of same, and be prepared to take this with equanimity and perhaps a large pinch of salt! But to take umbrage, and then threaten to 'leave' - or even actually do so summarily - is not really the best attitude in threads such as ours IMHO, and saddens me that it should culminate in the response here.
  
 Anyway, back to more positive things...really glad once more that your setup is now obviously bringing you even greater joy...may it grow more still LOL!!


----------



## pctazhp

OMG!!! Leaving this thread because you think H1 should have posted something in the other thread??? I sure wish I had so few problems I could worry about something like that. Half the time I don't even know which thread I'm posting in. What difference does it make??
  
 I don't know why, but both threads have slowed considerably recently. I'm grateful when anyone takes the time to post in either thread.


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,
  
 Please stay with us on whatever Feliks thread you choose. I for one enjoy your posts and the decades of experience with tube amplifiers that you bring.
  
 I am still thinking about if an anti static mat will help in my case since I have a metal spiked equipment rack with shelves made out of MDF particle board. The rack is quite heavy, has five shelves, and sits on a wooden floor.
  
 Each shelf sits on four little tabs, and based on a tip from Steven Gutenberg years ago, I put a little marble ball between the shelf and the tab to cancel out vibrations. (The green glass marbles seemed to work best - just joking!)
  
 Re the ferrite adapters I tried them but cannot say for sure yet if they impact my system. I put four on them on RCA patch cords but cannot discern a difference. A fifth one I put on the feed from my laptop out to my amp, and there seems to be some effect in lowering the noise.
  
 The audio out from my PC is very noisy and I have not found a solution yet.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 ATM I am enjoying EL11/EL12N very much. Did you try the EL12N as well?
  
 It seems to me that some people have all three types of EL12 - EL12, EL12 Spezial and EL12N. Could somebody compare the sound?
  
 It also seems to me the EL12 Telefunken tubes are among the best , but I don't have EL12 tubes from that brand yet - only Valvo and Tungsram. Somehow the EL12N, which all appear to be the same, regardless of year and brand, seem more stable than the temperamental EL12 tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> ATM I am enjoying EL11/EL12N very much. Did you try the EL12N as well?
> 
> ...


 

 I have TFK EL11-ST, Siemens EL12-ST and RFD (?) EL12N. Don't have the spez. In all EL combos, I use EL11 as the driver and the other two as powers. In my system I prefer the EL12N to the ST. Cleaner and more dynamic - more "slam". The ST may be a little smoother, but I don't find it quite as compelling. However, with a headphone that is brighter than my HD800S, the EL12-ST might be the preferable choice.
  
 I have many other tubes, including many of the popular ones here. The EL11-ST/EL12N is probably my favorite combo. It just does everything right, and I can listen for hours without fatigue. Very emotionally involving, which is my primary criteria at this point.
  
 I have had no hum or other problems with my EL11/12 tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> As for entering SS territory, with these tubes especially, I personally think our amps are doing a marvellous job of _almost _achieving the impossible - ie. combining the better qualities of SS with those of tubes, which I'm sure is no bad thing?! This will be another interesting area for comparison when I get my Chord Hugo 2 DAC/Amp, as will your own experiment lol....
> 
> And it would appear I need to apologise for mistaking the thread I posted on recently, and which you yourself were obviously gracious enough to recognise as such. But I must admit I have never in the whole time since the first introduction of Elise seen an honest, trivial mistake jumped upon in such a manner as mine was by the member in question.
> 
> When we make any statements, we must of course expect possible questioning/challenging of same, and be prepared to take this with equanimity and perhaps a large pinch of salt! But to take umbrage, and then threaten to 'leave' - or even actually do so summarily - is not really the best attitude in threads such as ours IMHO, and saddens me that it should culminate in the response here.


 
 I think those of us who favor tube amps, do so because they allow for a certain degree, large or small depending on tubes used, of euphonic coloration that we experience as closer to what we hear in live performances. Some have called tubes glorified tone controls )) Although I owned some great solid state amps in my audiophile days, I would not want to be stuck with just one voicing for headphone purposes.
  
 Agree that the usual camaraderie of our FA threads has been unnecessarily disturbed lately. Certainly there is absolutely no need for you to apologize.


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Agree with you that TFK EL11 ST and EL12N is one of my absolutely best sounding combinations, and it sounds better than TFK EL11/EL12. However, I don't have the TFK EL12 tubes yet, and I was wondering if I got all TFK tubes it would sound better. From what you are writing it seems that you still prefer the EL12N to the TFK EL12 ST tubes.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Agree with you that TFK EL11 ST and EL12N is one of my absolutely best sounding combinations, and it sounds better than TFK EL11/EL12. However, I don't have the TFK EL12 tubes yet, and I was wondering if I got all TFK tubes it would sound better. From what you are writing it seems that you still prefer the EL12N to the TFK EL12 ST tubes.


 

 Mordy:  My EL12-ST is Siemens, so I can't comment on the TFK version. My only TFK EL tube is the EL11-ST. It is the round-plate version, but not the impossible to find mesh version. H1 had reported that the oval-plate version of the EL11-ST sounded pretty much the same as the EL3N. There was a lot of discussion a while back about these different tubes, and as I recall there was a lot of re-branding. I came to the conclusion that ordering any of these tubes is somewhat of a gamble.
  
 I've been tempted to try the spez EL12 for powers. I actually have the ferrite chokes and the adapters are on order. But I'm enjoying the EL12N so much, I doubt I'll actually buy a pair of spez tubes.


----------



## mordy

Wonder if this has happened to you:
  
 I ordered a Valvo EL11 tube. When it arrived it came with the original box and looked in very good condition, but when I inserted the tube it was dead. No sound.
  
 Today, after a couple of weeks, I decided to give it another try before relegating it to the dust bin (some people sell dead tubes as decorative pieces, but it does not appeal to me lol.)
  
 Put in the tube, and no sound. Got sidetracked and left it in for another 10 minutes. Then I thought I heard faint sound from it. Pushed my balance control all to the right - yep; there is a very low volume sound.
  
 Since I have one 6267/EF86 tube that also plays at low volume, I paired the two. It somehow worked if I adjusted the balance control quite far. Afterwards I switched the tubes right to left, and it appears that this old sleepy tube is slowly waking up and playing louder.
  
 I will let it simmer for a while and then I will compare it to another Valvo EL11 to see if the volume matches.
  
 Strange - did I wake up old slumbering electrons?


----------



## UntilThen

Not my Telefunken and RFT EL12. It's in coma no matter how many electric shocks I gave it. I even send it to UK's emergency department but Dr. Hypnos1 couldn't revived it. 
  
 Mind you, they look new.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Here is the other step in the revival process that I forgot to mention:
  
 Even if the pins look new and clean, scrape them with a dull small knife blade or similar. Although the pins looked clean on my tube, possibly this might have helped as well. Between musical selections I could hear some static which could be a giveaway of poor pin contact. Wiggled the tube in the adapter and the static disappeared.
  
 After an hour of playing my impression is that the volume is normal, but I have not yet compared it to my other EL11.
  
 Still a strange experience......


----------



## connieflyer

You may also try standing on one leg rubbing your head with one hand and your stomach with the other hand and then also hopping up and down on one leg really does help I've seen it myself and I read it on the internet that makes it absolutely true


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> You may also try standing on one leg rubbing your head with one hand and your stomach with the other hand and then also hopping up and down on one leg really does help I've seen it myself and I read it on the internet that makes it absolutely true


 

 A most timely suggestion:


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> You may also try standing on one leg rubbing your head with one hand and your stomach with the other hand and then also hopping up and down on one leg really does help I've seen it myself and I read it on the internet that makes it absolutely true


 
  
 I can't do that now. Those comatose tubes are in UK. @hypnos1  can you try that as CF suggested?
  
 Which reminds me.... your adapted EL11s are still with Lukasz..... I'll get that shipped to me with my revitalised and supercharged Elise.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> RFD (?) EL12N




RFT. It's very easy to get confused here because there was a company called RSD relabeling them in West Germany.




pctazhp said:


> My EL12-ST is Siemens ... There was a lot of discussion a while back about these different tubes, and as I recall there was a lot of re-branding. I came to the conclusion that ordering any of these tubes is somewhat of a gamble.




Yes, and I assume your Siemens is still Loewe-Opta. :rolleyes:


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> I think those of us who favor tube amps, do so because they allow for a certain degree, large or small depending on tubes used, of euphonic coloration that we experience as closer to what we hear in live performances. Some have called tubes glorified tone controls )) Although I owned some great solid state amps in my audiophile days, I would not want to be stuck with just one voicing for headphone purposes.
> 
> Agree that the usual camaraderie of our FA threads has been unnecessarily disturbed lately. Certainly there is absolutely no need for you to apologize.


 
  
 Yo pct...tube 'coloration' rules, OK!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...and I too would never want the more static position re. SS (although modern 'filter' functions seem to be getting closer all the time to dialling in the precise kind of sound one prefers lol!...but not quite there yet!!).
  
 What I did find at my local meet however, was that (good) SS can indeed pip tubes in the speed stakes, and to a certain degree separation/control of different frequencies. And I personally have found that the EL tubes seem to come closest to the best 'compromise' - retaining the wonderfully smooth, immersive, 'emotional' character of our amps, while at the same time getting just a bit closer to adding those SS qualities mentioned...but in a way that should hopefully allay any of @angpsi's possible concerns 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


untilthen said:


> I can't do that now. Those comatose tubes are in UK. @hypnos1  can you try that as CF suggested?
> 
> Which reminds me.... your adapted EL11s are still with Lukasz..... I'll get that shipped to me with my revitalised and supercharged Elise.


 
  
 Tried that, UT...while hanging from the ceiling lol! - NO GO, alas!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...these EL11s and 12s certainly are somewhat idiosyncratic sometimes!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 And yes indeed - hopefully next time there'll be room in the box for those tubes...and hopefully you'll get a better idea of just what they can do lol....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....
  
 ps. Hope you don't have too long a wait for your super-duper Elise!!
  


oskari said:


> *RFT. It's very easy to get confused here because there was a company called RSD relabeling them in West Germany.*
> Yes, and I assume your Siemens is still Loewe-Opta.


 
  
 Yeah, O...from my own tubes, RSD = RFT beyond any doubt lol!!


----------



## UntilThen

Who's leaving? Who's staying? Who got banned? I've lost count. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ... and where's Dr. Lobster ?  I still have Telefunken EL12 and RFT EL12N that works perfectly but I'm running with Psvane 6sn7 UK version and Mullard 6080... a combination that Lobster loves too. This combination hits all the right notes. I'm actually looking to buy another pair of Mullard 6080.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Yeah, O...from my own tubes, RSD = RFT beyond any doubt lol!!




That is often true, and certainly so for the EL12N, but it's not a generic truth. :regular_smile :


----------



## thatonenoob

pctazhp said:


> OMG!!! Leaving this thread because you think H1 should have posted something in the other thread??? I sure wish I had so few problems I could worry about something like that. Half the time I don't even know which thread I'm posting in. What difference does it make??
> 
> I don't know why, but both threads have slowed considerably recently. I'm grateful when anyone takes the time to post in either thread.


 
 You move too fast~  This thread goes at warp speed to me lol.


----------



## HPLobster

untilthen said:


> Who's leaving? Who's staying? Who got banned? I've lost count.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I´m still alive and kicking, don´t you worry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Mixture of tough times at work, Chinese adapters that finally have arrived and need evaluation and ...well...holidays right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, will be gone till April 24th...
  
 I´ll report back afterwards


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I have many other tubes, including many of the popular ones here. The EL11-ST/EL12N is probably my favorite combo. It just does everything right, and I can listen for hours without fatigue. Very emotionally involving, which is my primary criteria at this point.


 
  
 EL11 and EL12N is a nice combo. I think I will buy a nice pair of EL11 again. Meanwhile here's Psvane 6sn7 and EL12n which does sound very good.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
*I think I will buy a nice pair of EL11 again.*
  
 What about these?
  


  
  

  
 A pair of tubular Telefunken EL11 - very nice sounding and a little different than the TFK ST EL11. And aesthetically very pleasing...


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> *I think I will buy a nice pair of EL11 again.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Mordy, I've decided to buy one single NOS Telefunken EL12 to pair with my perfect one. EL11 and EL12 sounds similar to my ears.
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/222172263007


----------



## UntilThen

Can you see my current pair of Telefunken EL12 are not identical. The right tube is slimmer and has a different top fins. Aesthetics is important to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 So I'm getting this tube to match it. This is the top I'm looking for.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 I have one EL12 tube with what looks the identical top:
  

 However, my notes say Valvo EL12 375V. The base has the white letters DM
                                                                                                           PMB
  
 Just to add another indecipherable code, I have a Philips Miniwatt Made in Holland EL11 with white letters on the base reading 226.1  DU.
  
  
 I


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> However, my notes say Valvo EL12 375V. The base has the white letters DM
> PMB
> 
> Just to add another indecipherable code, I have a Philips Miniwatt Made in Holland EL11 with white letters on the base reading 226.1  DU.




We covered the first code. The D is for Valvo.

The second code is not a code in this Philips system.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Apologize for forgetting to write down the information and put it on a sticker on my tube - at least I did for the other two.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
*EL11 and EL12 sounds similar to my ears.*
  
 Yes and no. The "house sound" is similar, but they do not sound the same. How do I know? I ordered a TFK EL12 but it sounded too thin in the bass, and I finally figured out that I got an EL11 tube instead. The silk screening was worn where the numbers were printed, and a very close look revealed the number 11 with most of the second 1 missing. (I became convinced of this after studying pictures of other similar TFK tubes offered for sale on eBay.)
  

 This tube has the date code vk which means June 1949. On the tube is printed KöW - don't know what that means. On the right it says Ulm which is the location of the factory.
  
 Perhaps part of the difference in sound is due to the amperage ratings; 0.9A vs 1.2A.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> This tube has the date code vk which means June 1949. On the tube is printed KöW - don't know what that means. On the right it says Ulm which is the location of the factory.




That's RöW. The top part of the R is missing. RöW Ulm = Röhrenwerk Ulm.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> *EL11 and EL12 sounds similar to my ears.*
> 
> Yes and no. The "house sound" is similar, but they do not sound the same. How do I know? I ordered a TFK EL12 but it sounded too thin in the bass, and I finally figured out that I got an EL11 tube instead. The silk screening was worn where the numbers were printed, and a very close look revealed the number 11 with most of the second 1 missing. (I became convinced of this after studying pictures of other similar TFK tubes offered for sale on eBay.)


 
  
 It might sound different to you but it sounded the same to me. I had the EL11 for a pretty long time before I dispatch it to H1. I did a lot of swapping between EL11 and EL12 with EL12N as power tubes.
  
 This is a top view of the EL tubes. The front pair is EL11 and you can see the different fins of the 2 Telefunken EL12.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm back to using Psvane 6SN7 and Mullard 6080. Spend a whole day yesterday with these tubes with a variety of music. I prefer these over the EL tubes setup. The former is more relaxed and non fatiguing to me, has all the clarity and details with a realistic and wide soundstage.
  
 However as there is a big camp of lovers of EL tubes here, I shall not rain on their parade. It just seems ironic to me that Elise and Euforia being design for 6SN7 and 6AS7 specifically have led many to seek other tubes instead, particularly pentodes. I know it's a big turn around for me but this is where I am at now after tube rolling for more than a year with Elise.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 When I compared the sound I only tried the EL11/12 in the power slots - could it be that they sound different as drivers vs powers?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I'm back to using Psvane 6SN7 and Mullard 6080. Spend a whole day yesterday with these tubes with a variety of music. I prefer these over the EL tubes setup. The former is more relaxed and non fatiguing to me, has all the clarity and details with a realistic and wide soundstage.
> 
> However as there is a big camp of lovers of EL tubes here, I shall not rain on their parade. It just seems ironic to me that Elise and Euforia being design for 6SN7 and 6AS7 specifically have led many to seek other tubes instead, particularly pentodes. I know it's a big turn around for me but this is where I am at now after tube rolling for more than a year with Elise.


 
  
 A turnaround indeed UT, by one of our most prolific rollers lol!!
  
 But what you are highlighting is that journey of discovery towards finding just what eventually *suits one's own personal taste*...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. And this can indeed be a VERY long and tortuous journey...mine has been a good few years now, and I myself have only just finally discovered _*my*_ preferred taste! 
  
 And don't forget that the situation becomes a bit more clouded as our hearing changes with the passage of time LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...not to mention changes in our sound system. I myself am both excited and just a little apprehensive about the quite major changes I shall soon be making in my own setup, and perhaps further tube 'tweaking' just might be necessary - but I hope not lol!!
  
 I wouldn't be at all surprised if your own current preferences vary somewhat in the future! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 But all that really matters at the end of the day is that each of us can hopefully find the magic combination of equipment that provides what brings us the most joy...and I'm glad that you too are now happy with the tubes that are just right for yourself. And now, just like me, you will have to try and erase from your mind those oft-quoted words from folks who've been in this game far longer than we ourselves......IT NEVER ENDS!!!...CHEERS!, mon ami...


----------



## pctazhp

untilthen said:


> I'm back to using Psvane 6SN7 and Mullard 6080. Spend a whole day yesterday with these tubes with a variety of music. I prefer these over the EL tubes setup. The former is more relaxed and non fatiguing to me, has all the clarity and details with a realistic and wide soundstage.
> 
> However as there is a big camp of lovers of EL tubes here, *I shall not rain on their parade.* It just seems ironic to me that Elise and Euforia being design for 6SN7 and 6AS7 specifically have led many to seek other tubes instead, particularly pentodes. I know it's a big turn around for me but this is where I am at now after tube rolling for more than a year with Elise.


 
  
 You just did, and now I'm stuck with a very soggy parade and a bunch of worthless EL11/12s. Don't you realize parades are off limits????


----------



## pctazhp

Here's my favorite thing to do with my Elise:


----------



## pctazhp

And @UntilThen, just for good old times sake:
  

  
 After I finish listening to this I'm going to smash all my ELL11/12s and throw them in the recycling bag


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 Oh no, don't do that! Send them to me - I still enjoy them (until my hearing and taste changes).......


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> And @UntilThen, just for good old times sake:
> After I finish listening to this I'm going to smash all my ELL11/12s and throw them in the recycling bag


 
  
 I was looking for 'Don't rain on my parade' in this LP but alas it's not there. However there are many golden tunes there and at $1, it's my best music purchase. Cover and vinyl is still in mint condition. I must visit the record shop more often for such bargains.
  
 I never did question the sonic wonders of the EL tubes. I'm just taking the high road of caution and staying with recommended tubes by FA. However this is for everyone to decide. You have far too many good recommended tubes in your possession. Use them or sell the GECs to me. Yup both 6AS7 and 6080 by GEC.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Oh no, don't do that! Send them to me - I still enjoy them (until my hearing and taste changes).......


 

 Sorry Mordy. @UntilThen told me that if I sent my 3 pair to him, along with $500, he would convert them all into KR Audio 300B Balloon tubes. So they are already on their way to Australia along with a cashier check. I just dropped them off at a doctor's home who is taking a United Airlines flight to Sydney in the morning. He promised he would take the tubes in the cabin with him to make sure they get there safe.
  
 https://www.tubedepot.com/products/kr-audio-300b-balloon


----------



## pctazhp

> Originally Posted by *UntilThen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I never did question the sonic wonders of the EL tubes. I'm just taking the high road of caution and staying with recommended tubes by FA. However this is for everyone to decide. You have far too many good recommended tubes in your possession. Use them or sell the GECs to me. Yup both 6AS7 and 6080 by GEC.


 
  
 I'll reserve judgment on the GECs and other non-EL tubes until I get Euforia and it is fully burned in. I doubt I'll be wanting to get rid of any tubes. As to the GECs, my guess is if I did get rid of either pair (highly unlikely), it would probably be the 6AS7Gs, because I think the 6080 is probably a better match with HD800S.
  
 I have a personal hangup about selling tubes. I don't have any way of testing them and don't feel right taking money from someone when I don't really know the condition of the tubes. So in the highly unlikely chance I don't keep either or both pair, I would just send them to you free. Don't hold your breath ))
  
 I do have an unlimited supply of Cactus Candy I'd be happy to sell for the right price.


----------



## Suuup

Wait, are people abandoning the EL-tubes?


----------



## pctazhp

suuup said:


> Wait, are people abandoning the EL-tubes?


 

 OMG  A voice from the past!!!. Glad to see you are still around)))
  
 The whole EL saga on this thread has been interesting to say the least. I won't speak for others. Some seem concerned about running tubes that are not approved by FA because of warranty issues. But if EL11s are used for drivers and EL12 of EL12a for powers, the heater current is low. There's also been an entire sub-plot involving EL12 spez and adapters for that tube.
  
 For me, I love my EL11-ST/EL12n combo, and I'm sticking with it for now.
  
 Let's us know what has been going on with you ))))


----------



## Suuup

pctazhp said:


> OMG  A voice from the past!!!. Glad to see you are still around)))
> 
> The whole EL saga on this thread has been interesting to say the least. I won't speak for others. Some seem concerned about running tubes that are not approved by FA because of warranty issues. But if EL11s are used for drivers and EL12 of EL12a for powers, the heater current is low. There's also been an entire sub-plot involving EL12 spez and adapters for that tube.
> 
> ...


 
 I actually just got my Elise back. A local guy has been trying it out for some time to see if he liked it.  Haven't really done much rolling lately because I've been busy with so much other stuff. Have considered getting a pair of Psvane though.. hmm...
  
 Good to see ya'll still hanging out here


----------



## mordy

Hi Howie13,
  
 I finally got my Russian Svetlana 6J32P (EF86 equivalent) tubes. They sound quite nice paired with the EL12N. The only con is that I need to turn up the volume much higher than I usually do. This is probably due to the fact that these tubes only draw 0.2A, and the other driver tubes I use are in the 0.6A-1.2A range.
  
 Do you have any recommendations for EF86 tubes and which power tubes they pair best with?


----------



## HOWIE13

mordy said:


> Hi Howie13,
> 
> I finally got my Russian Svetlana 6J32P (EF86 equivalent) tubes. They sound quite nice paired with the EL12N. The only con is that I need to turn up the volume much higher than I usually do. This is probably due to the fact that these tubes only draw 0.2A, and the other driver tubes I use are in the 0.6A-1.2A range.
> 
> Do you have any recommendations for EF86 tubes and which power tubes they pair best with?


 
 Nothing really new to report, Mordy.
  
 The two I've tried, RFT (branded Zaerix), and Mullard (branded Amperex), both also required an hour or two more on the vol pot, though with no detriment to sound.
  
 I preferred the Mullard as it was clearer and more dynamic. With both I used either spez or EL12N as powers. They both sounded similar-good stage, nice and euphonic-just how we like it- LOL.
  
 There was an occasional hum, lasting a few seconds, every 10 minutes or so with the Mullards-I suspect it's just microphonics as I can re-create the hum by flicking Elise's case with my finger-it didn't bother me as it's barely audible at all when music is playing-but I've read that microphonics is something to be aware of with these tubes.
  
 Here's the link to the Amperex/ Mullards if you were thinking of trying them:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EF86-AMPEREX-HOLLAND-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-LC29-/262360600836?hash=item3d15e91104:g:04kAAOSwgApW-6u0


----------



## Wreckgar7

@mordy, IF I remeber correctly uve been using EL6 tubes right? Do they use the same adapters as El3n? Soundimpressions?


----------



## mordy

Hi W7,
  
 Yes, the adapters are identical to those used for the EL3N. The sound is very smooth with a very even distribution across the FR - very sweet, detailed and non fatiguing. They sound like very well behaved EL12 tubes.
  
 Unfortunately the EL6 tubes are very rare, hard to find, and expensive. IMHO, in the long run you would be just as well served by the EL12N that is in good supply (check European eBay sites) and not expensive.


----------



## Wreckgar7

mordy said:


> Hi W7,
> 
> Yes, the adapters are identical to those used for the EL3N. The sound is very smooth with a very even distribution across the FR - very sweet, detailed and non fatiguing. They sound like very well behaved EL12 tubes.
> 
> Unfortunately the EL6 tubes are very rare, hard to find, and expensive. IMHO, in the long run you would be just as well served by the EL12N that is in good supply (check European eBay sites) and not expensive.



Great, thanks for The info  i already have a pair of El12N and a pair of El12 telefunken, love The sound, but it seems i might be able to snatch a pair of Tungsram EL6 for under 50 dollars, and since i own The adapters already its definitly worth a try


----------



## mordy

Hi W7,
  
 Definitively worth trying - let me know how they sound.
  
 I have three used ones: one Tungsram, one Philips and one Valvo. They all measure about 70%. I use them with EL12N and EL11 as drivers.


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys,I know something's been mentioned in the past, I just can't seem to locate the discussion: can someone clarify on the differences between these Mullard CV2984 / 6080 and Mullard 6080?
  

  

  
 How about sonic differences with other iterations, e.g. this one? 


 Finally, anyone have experience with the GE 6AS7ga?

  
 Thanks!


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Hi guys,I know something's been mentioned in the past, I just can't seem to locate the discussion: can someone clarify on the differences between these Mullard CV2984 / 6080 and Mullard 6080?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Same tube, different branding. The CVs were for UK gov.


----------



## HOWIE13

angpsi said:


> Hi guys,I know something's been mentioned in the past, I just can't seem to locate the discussion: can someone clarify on the differences between these Mullard CV2984 / 6080 and Mullard 6080?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think I may have been part of that earlier discussion but haven't a clue where to find it.
  
 Anyway, the blue box version was very microphonic and hence difficult to enjoy, whilst the CV Government version was perfect with all the characteristics of Mullard 6080 sound that has been discussed many times on this thread. They get very hot.
  
 That GE I think sounded very similar to the Sylvania 6AS7 I had and it's sweet and a bit lean in the bass. Would suit a warm set-up. Nothing remarkable though.


----------



## Oskari

howie13 said:


> Anyway, the blue box version was very microphonic




Probably just bad luck but there's a chance that there was more testing on the CVs.


----------



## HOWIE13

oskari said:


> Probably just bad luck but there's a chance that there was more testing on the CVs.


 
 Yes hard to know-both the blue ones were the same microphony. I don't know whether microphony was something the Government deliberately wanted to avoid in their equipment and tested for it. Doubtful though.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 As a rule I think that the consensus on this forum was that the best sounding 6080 type tubes were the GEC, Bendix and Tung Sol 7236 tubes with a honorable mention to the RCA 6080.
  
 I have a number of 6080/6AS7GA tubes, including the Mullard, Bendix, RCA, Sylvania, GE, Philips, Tung Sol, Chatham etc and with the exception of the Bendix I do not listen to them any more.


----------



## UntilThen

Good to hear discussions of recommended power tubes returning to this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have Bendix 6080wb slotted, RCA 6080, Mullard CV2984/6080, GE 6AS7GA, RCA 6AS7GA, TS 5998, Cetron and TS 7236, Chatham 6520, RCA 6AS7G in my inventory.
  
 Nothing wrong with any of them except some sounded too warm and dark for my liking - on Euforia. Mind you, the same dark and warm power tubes sounded very good on La Figaro 339.
 The dark and warm power tubes are GE 6AS7GA, RCA 6AS7GA and RCA 6AS7G. 
  
 I've been using Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Mullard CV2984 lately and really love the combination.... with my HD650.


----------



## UntilThen

I have been getting several private messages of new Elise owners telling me how they love their amps with their headphones. I can only urge you to share your impressions here on this thread. If you own Elise, this is your thread and we would love to hear from you.


----------



## pctazhp

I know some people use HD600 with Elise, and Focal Utopia has been mentioned here. I thought some might be interested in this well written comparison between the two: http://www.head-fi.org/t/811273/focal-utopia-a-little-elear-impressions-and-discussion/3240#post_13440266


----------



## richard89

Hi all, I have a quick question. Is the Elise good as a speaker amp? I have some Klipsch Promedia 2.1 but it seems like everyone here uses Elise as a pre-amp and not an amp.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## UntilThen

Elise is not a speaker amp. You can use it as preamp to a pair of active speakers or into another amp.


----------



## richard89

Thanks @UT, I was a little confused by the terminology. By preamp I thought "extra complicatated wires" so I was intimidated about the setup but understand now.


----------



## angpsi

Ok, time to face the sad reality: after a long listening period with the ELs it looks like I can't keep them anymore... 
  
 The reason is that while *all the great qualities are there *(as per my earlier post, where I concede to all the other reports in this thread) my ears *end up suffering from some effect akin to atmospheric pressure*; an effect which was lifted immediately once I changed to either the stock combo, or the RCA 6080 and Psvane 6sn7 UK which I'm rolling with right now. This has been a constant with all the EL combos I tried, which makes me thing that it has to do with the general character of the tubes on the Elise, perhaps combined with the ruthless rendering of the HD600.
  
 I wonder if anyone here has a reasonable theory to account for what I'm experiencing. Regardless, I am now willing to part with my full collection, given that having aching eardrums can never be considered as good news (plus I could use the money—just bought a pair of Mullard 6080)!
  
 (extended info on the following post)


----------



## angpsi

As I promised when I first encountered difficulties with my EL tubes, I'm letting people in this thread know about this first considering the strong interest the EL tubes enjoy here. If you guys think this should go directly to the classifieds forum I'd be happy to oblige and delete the post.
 
Here's what I have in my hands and my asking price—which is more or less what I paid myself shipping excluded, besides two occasions where the prices reflect current market value:
 
*EL12*
1X TFK EL12 (72mA/72mA €62.90) WG
1X TFK EL12 (73mA/72mA €63.90) WG
2X TFK EL12spez (matched pair, 38mA&37mA/36mA, €139,45) RM
2X Siemens EL12N (70mA&75mA/72mA, €92.50) FK
 
*EL11*
2X TFK EL11 (matched pair NOS, 39mA&38mA/36mA €85.00 - 1 broken center pin but fully functioning) WG
1X Valvo EL11 (39mA/36mA €38.90) WG
1X Valvo EL11 (–marked “sehr gut”– €25.90) PS
2X RFT EL11 (28mA/36, €36.00) RF
 
*measurements were made by the seller (mentioned respectively for each tube)—unfortunately I don't have a tester myself to confirm. Most tubes haven't been used on my Elise for more than 10-20 hours, except for the TFK EL12spez, EL12 [st], and EL11 which have around 40-50 hours on them.
** all of the tubes besides one were bought from reputable sellers. The abbreviations at the end of each listing refers to each seller as follows:
WG = Wege - HiFidelity
RM = Radioman0_14
FK = Hannaphiline (Frank Kloss)
RF = Roehrenfritze
PS = Private seller
 
If someone's willing to take everything off my hands at once, I can let go at €460 which is a 15% discount on the total sum.
 
For those who are without the necessary adapters, I also have two pairs of MsXuling's along with the price I paid for them:
2X EL12spez to 6sn7 (€36.00)
2X EL11 to 6sn7 (€30.95)
#EDIT I also have two "tower of Pisa" EL11 to 6sn7 adapters; perhaps I could throw them in on a good deal!
 
All prices are excluding shipping and PayPal fees.
May consider trades, but now that I got the Mullards there are very few tubes that interest me; such would be the A1834 breed but then not at the unobtainable rates they go for these days! Perhaps a well maintained HD650 (now going for about €200-220) might also do the trick...


----------



## mordy

Hi.
  
 I am sure you all know that Isophone is the world's best speaker, but personally, I have never heard of this German company dating back to 1929.
  
 Anyhow, here is an interesting percussion recording with an 8 piece band playing, and then the speakers playing the same recording again - you decide what sounds best.
  

  
 Pretty good sound though, either way......


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi.
> 
> I am sure you all know that Isophone is the world's best speaker, but personally, I have never heard of this German company dating back to 1929.
> 
> ...





 Hah! I was watching this the other day! Btw, how would you call/google this snazzy jazzy percussion type of tune? I really want to listen to more of this!


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi,
  
 No idea what to call this kind of music - one comment on YouTube called it "elevator music" lol. Percussion?
  
 Anyhow, back in the past, when I bought direct-to-disc records and hi fi stuff, I found this high fidelity 1986 percussion recording that supposedly was used to demo systems at shows. YouTube does not do it justice, but the bass guitar goes quite low,
 and I like this piece:
  

  
 It is called "It's ridiculous" (no doubt referring to the prices of the GEC 6AS7).


----------



## mordy

All right, for you historians out there - here is the first drum video ever made (Warren Baby Dodds on drums - the best New Orleans drummer of all time)
  
  

  
 I think that this recording (audio only) is from the same occasion in 1946:
  

  
 Haven't seen it on YouTube before - I have it on a Japanese pressing.


----------



## angpsi

Interesting bit of knowledge!


jude said:


> Years ago on Head-Fi, one of the biggest debates you'd see on these forums was the debate over whether or not the HD 600/650 was veiled. Some thought it was, others (like me) felt differently. This argument would pop up in any number of discussions rather frequently (as, for years, the HD600 and HD650 were the most discussed headphones here), sometimes steering threads off-topic.
> 
> The discussion of it got so old and tired, that, as the old saying goes, it was like beating a dead horse.
> 
> ...


 
 Originally found it here: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650#i0Ia25oaL7JeOdym.97


----------



## UntilThen

HD650 is not veiled, especially after I mod it and set it free. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Or you can use a silver cable if you are not into modding.
  
 I've grown to love my HD650 much over time. What was once originally a very tight clamp on my head when new, has now become the most comfortable headphone I've tried, aside from the HD800.
  
 Sonically I love the HD650. It's just warm and relaxing and full bodied. I have no issues with the pronounced mid bass. Love it in fact. Some complain about a roll off high end but seriously this is the most non fatiguing headphone for extended long listening. Sennheiser has created an iconic headphone that has withstood the test of time and at the price it is today it's a bargain.
  
 My T1 is taking a break.


----------



## thatonenoob

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> No idea what to call this kind of music - one comment on YouTube called it "elevator music" lol. Percussion?
> 
> ...





 ​easy listening genre, tho bossa nova tends to get a bad rap for being elevator music too. SO UNTRUE.
  
 This is elevator music.
​


----------



## angpsi

thatonenoob said:


> ​easy listening genre, tho bossa nova tends to get a bad rap for being elevator music too. SO UNTRUE.
> 
> This is elevator music.
> ​





 True elevator music indeed! I'm imagining an awkward scene in a movie taking place in an elevator playing this and I'm laughing my eyes out!


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Ok, time to face the sad reality: after a long listening period with the ELs it looks like I can't keep them anymore...
> 
> The reason is that while *all the great qualities are there *(as per my earlier post, where I concede to all the other reports in this thread) my ears *end up suffering from some effect akin to atmospheric pressure*; an effect which was lifted immediately once I changed to either the stock combo, or the RCA 6080 and Psvane 6sn7 UK which I'm rolling with right now. This has been a constant with all the EL combos I tried, which makes me thing that it has to do with the general character of the tubes on the Elise, perhaps combined with the ruthless rendering of the HD600.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi angpsi.
  
 That really is sad news, and I must admit I haven't really much of a (definite) clue as to why you're having such problems with these tubes...possible "oscillation" within them due to something in your environment? (although it's highly unlikely that they would ALL be suffering from this phenomenon!). Frequencies that your own hearing simply can't tolerate? Whatever, it seems rather (unfortunately) weird to me lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and a real shame...I personally haven't experienced this with any of the (multiple) EL3N/EL11/EL12/12 Spezials in my own setup.
  
 And it's an equal shame that I have already acquired enough 12 Spezs to last me, or else I would definitely have snatched them off you!! I do hope that you manage to recoup a good bit of your expenditure on them - ebay may well be the eventual saviour lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Best, CJ


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> just bought a pair of Mullard 6080


 
  
 Which Mullard 6080 did you end up buying?


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> Which Mullard 6080 did you end up buying?


 

Blue box from Langrex. They only had one piece of the CV2984 and obviously I needed a pair.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Which Mullard 6080 did you end up buying?
> ...


 
  
 They should be identical in tone - I have every reason to believe so.
  
 I am still running Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Mullard 6080. It is sounding so good I just don't want to change the tubes. Psvane 6sn7 and Mullard 6080 sounds very good too. Free of adapters at last.


----------



## angpsi

untilthen said:


> They should be identical in tone - I have every reason to believe so.
> 
> I am still running Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Mullard 6080. It is sounding so good I just don't want to change the tubes. Psvane 6sn7 and Mullard 6080 sounds very good too. Free of adapters at last.


 

 Well, I have to tell you I'm liking the RCA6080 more and more by the hour; that's how I ended up buying the Mullard. It's a nice change to enjoy a smooth and relaxing sound for long hours without my eardrums hurting! However, I got to admit (not to get me buyers) that when the ELs opened up their sound was amazing. Perhaps it was the very condensed rendering of the HD600 that made them problematic to my ears...
  
 Too bad that everyone here's already stocked up with EL tubes; I just opened a classified and next logical step would be to get them selling on Ebay. Would you by any chance know another forum where I could put them up for sale?


----------



## whirlwind

angpsi said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > They should be identical in tone - I have every reason to believe so.
> ...


 
  
 I also quite like the Mullard sound, I also quite like the older RCA 1940's driver tubes....smooth....many don't like this sound because there is not much air on the top end and the treble may seem lacking for some.
  
 I think many people like a brighter signature because there is more detail, but you can have some great detail with a much warmer type of treble, you just need to get used to that tone. like you say, you can listen to it all day with no fatigue and not a hint of sibilance .  Happy listening.
  
 If you have any extra EL3N tubes, i may be able to help you out with buying some of those....I really do not need any of the other EL tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> If you have any extra EL3N tubes, i may be able to help you out with buying some of those....I really do not need any of the other EL tubes.


 
  
 YES, you are my man. I have 10 EL3N tubes in spankingly new condition. I'll give you a discount plus 50% participation in the shipping.


----------



## whirlwind

untilthen said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > If you have any extra EL3N tubes, i may be able to help you out with buying some of those....I really do not need any of the other EL tubes.
> ...


 
  
 Well, since I offered to angpsi, lets see if he has any for sale first....if not and you have four with matched codes and the price is right...maybe we can do a deal....these are 10,000 hour tubes and I have four tubes now...so I will in no way need 10 tubes....but a back up pair would be nice....also thought about getting four EL3 tubes as they are only half the price as the EL3N.


----------



## UntilThen

> Originally Posted by *whirlwind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Well, since I offered to angpsi, lets see if he has any for sale first....if not and you have four with matched codes and the price is right...maybe we can do a deal....these are 10,000 hour tubes and I have four tubes now...so I will in no way need 10 tubes....but a back up pair would be nice....also thought about getting four EL3 tubes as they are only half the price as the EL3N.


 
  
 Sure let @angpsi sell it if he has any EL3N. I'm not too fussed. Will sell only if there are buyers. Otherwise, I'll keep it to light up the Christmas tree.


----------



## angpsi

whirlwind said:


> Well, since I offered to angpsi, lets see if he has any for sale first....if not and you have four with matched codes and the price is right...maybe we can do a deal....these are 10,000 hour tubes and I have four tubes now...so I will in no way need 10 tubes....but a back up pair would be nice....also thought about getting four EL3 tubes as they are only half the price as the EL3N.


 

 Go right ahead guys, I haven't any other EL tubes besides the EL11/12 I mentioned in my post. Cheers!


----------



## Oskari

whirlwind said:


> ....also thought about getting four EL3 tubes as they are only half the price as the EL3N.




Which brand? ST-shaped tubes marked EL3 should in fact be EL3N tubes. The very early true EL3 is very distinctive: http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el3.html.


----------



## whirlwind

oskari said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > ....also thought about getting four EL3 tubes as they are only half the price as the EL3N.
> ...


 
 Tungsram
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Tubes-EL3-TUNGSRAM-2-Pieces-NOS-NIB-1-pair-5-available-/332075879499?hash=item4d5143cc4b:g:e0QAAOSwzgRWyjuC


----------



## Oskari

Yeah, those should be EL3Ns (but perhaps somebody we trust should measure the heater current). Swedish military boxes, btw.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Blue box from Langrex.




Oh, Langrex has a new website design with a new shop.


----------



## angpsi

oskari said:


> Oh, Langrex has a new website design with a new shop.


 Yes! Cool, isn't it?


----------



## Oskari

Yes, quite an improvement.


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> I should have been asleep hours ago. But I've been listening to this again and again.
> 
> 
> _Solveigs sang_
> ...


 
  
 Still with this. Starting to understand Norwegian by now...


----------



## pctazhp

Listening to this on Tidal HD-Bimby DAC-Elise (TS6SN7-original isse/GEC6080-HD800S. I just don't know how enjoyment of music gets any better
  

  
 I know it doesn't get any better than listening and watching this on YouTube (sorry for this repeat video):


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Listening to this on Tidal HD-Bimby DAC-Elise (TS6SN7-original isse/GEC6080-HD800S. I just don't know how enjoyment of music gets any better


 
  
 The only thing better is my singing.


----------



## Oskari

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/yf84m1H4anY[/VIDEO]

_Sommaren är kort_


----------



## richard89

untilthen said:


> Elise is not a speaker amp. You can use it as preamp to a pair of active speakers or into another amp.




Hey @UT. Just to clarify. I can use the 3.5 mm headphone jack of the Elise to plug in active speakers correct?


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > Elise is not a speaker amp. You can use it as preamp to a pair of active speakers or into another amp.
> ...


 
  
 Whatcha talking about. There's no 3.5 mm headphone jack on Elise. Well there is a headphone connection in front but that is a 1/4 inch - not 3.5 mm.
  
 Anyhoo that is not how you connect to your active speakers.
  
 See this picture of Elise's back? Those 2 RCA line out - those 2 vertical ones on the right? You will use a pair of RCA cable - left and right - or the most basic one has white and red. Can't go wrong there. Plug it in there....
  

  
 the other end of your RCA cables goes into your active speakers RCA input.... for example the AudioEngine 2 .... see below the Input L and R  RCA sockets. Plug that in and Bobs your uncle, you can start to boggle.
  

  
 but what happens if your dumb speakers have only 3.5mm input? Like this Bose Companion 5. The control pod of the Bose takes only 3.5 mm jack. 
  

  
 No worries. All you need is a 'wonder' RCA to 3.5 mm cable like this ....
  

  
 and plug the RCA ends to Elise's back - RCA line out and the other end of the cable 3.5 mm to the line in of the Bose control pod - which is the right socket btw - see picture below.
  

  
 Happy listening


----------



## richard89

Thanks UT. I've already got this one and the speakers that I use have a 3.5mm plug to fit, would this also be okay?


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> Thanks UT. I've already got this one and the speakers that I use have a 3.5mm plug to fit, would this also be okay?


 
  
 Yes that is ok but you will then need this between that cable and your speakers.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hearty hello again and possibly goodbye to fine folks on this Elise thread. I've put my Elise for sale here for anyone who's interested:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/845220/elise-from-feliks-audio-in-perfect-condition#post_13445941
  
 PS- is there any workaround to make the 120V version workable just in case someone from a 230V region is interested in it, such as an internal switch or a step-down unit, etc.?


----------



## angpsi

Can't believe I didn't know about this Angel in a Gibson! Got a Greek father too! I'm hooked!
https://tidal.com/album/68737767

[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/6gLtAGG2b0A[/VIDEO]


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Can't believe I didn't know about this Angel in a Gibson! Got a Greek father too! I'm hooked!
> https://tidal.com/album/68737767


 
  
 I'll keep you company here apsi. When I get my Elise back from FA, she will be as good as new. Thanks for this new music.


----------



## richard89

Hey thanks a bunch UT, I finally got it done. I was going to use the Elises' headphone jack with a 6.5mm "converter" jack to plug my speakers in, but I guess the back panel is the proper way to preamp? Anyhow, I was pretty impressed with the Elise ability to power my speakers, even though they aren't much, it was still pretty cool to experience and learn about.


----------



## UntilThen

No problem Richard. That is the only way to connect Elise as a preamp. You do not use the headphone out for that purpose.

Elise is not powering your speakers. Elise is only use as a preamp in so you get all the tube juiciness. Your speakers are active so have it's own amplification.

Enjoy.


----------



## pctazhp

Well, I guess I'm the first person to log back into this thread. I had a feeling I was not going to like the new format, but I had no idea how much I would hate it.

I don't mind the adds. They need to make money. But they have buried and crippled the thread function which is the thing I (and I suspect most people) use the most. 

The log-in function is very user unfriendly (at least for this user) and I'm finding it difficult to stay logged in without inadvertently logging out and having to start all over again.

The adds won't do them any good if they don't have people using the site.I can't imagine what they had in mind.

When I first logged in I saw a thread where people were already complaining a lot, but I have no idea how to get back to it.

But I'm just a grumpy old man who hates most new fanglled things.


----------



## thatonenoob

I can't find my way around the new website.  I've posted some existing issues here.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/anybody-figured-out-the-new-site-yet.845535/page-3#post-13453920


----------



## i20bot (Apr 27, 2017)

Let's get this back and running since all the links are broken now lol.  Even though I don't have an Elise, this the only thread that posts music so I come here just to see what you guys post lol.  Well that I know of anyways.


----------



## UntilThen

Hello..... is anyone here?


----------



## mordy (Apr 27, 2017)

Yep - did u get my PM?


----------



## thatonenoob

Aight guys, it's safe to come out again.  Here's a morning music suggestion to kick us off.

Cause, I'm tryna find my way around here.


----------



## Oskari

I think I'm here. Am I here?


----------



## thatonenoob

Oskari said:


> I think I'm here. Am I here?



50% chance.  Hard to tell, really.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Yep - did u get my PM?



Just did but it's not obvious. I have to go looking to see what messages I've got. There's no flashing 'YOU HAVE A MESSAGE'.



thatonenoob said:


> 50% chance.  Hard to tell, really.



Hello Ton, is that really you? Or is it Eddie Murphy?


----------



## Oskari

thatonenoob said:


> 50% chance.  Hard to tell, really.



Too fecking true.


----------



## thatonenoob

UntilThen said:


> Hello Ton, is that really you? Or is it Eddie Murphy?



Could be both!


----------



## frederick-rea

With all my friendship, let me try to justify some disenchantment I have shown lately. There are indeed big egos here (AS IN ANY FORUM OF THIS TYPE). They are egos of affirmation, they are egos of frustration and they are egos of research, besides others that the science of psychology is in charge of studying
Having a great ego is not by itself a mistake, on the contrary, if properly democratized in the context of a forum, where opinions may diverge and this divergence will help a more perfect solution than the previous one.
Within the research there is one scientific research and one sensory research that sometimes are coincident and at other times they diverge
I think we are happy to have several different ideas from several different participants
Trying to punish or even use phrases that offend, or creating an environment of antagonism can lead to the degradation of a forum on a group who refrain from actively participating for fear of receiving attestations of incompetence on opinion
I ask myself if this is not the reason of only 3 or 4 members participate actively

Secondly, I would like to contribute with my opinion on the EL12n individually and compared to the GEC 6AS7G, which are my reference valves for powers
It took me a long time to accept the idea of using this valve by going out of the parameters and specifications for which ELISE was designed. However complying with the basic rule of not exceeding the specific effort to the components, and accepting that the objective of this construction is altered in its final result, since the interrelationship of the components is fundamental and if one is altered, another one must be as well (compensation) to achieve the same end result
Said that and
Keeping the same drives (regardless of what they are) for this opinion.
I use most of the time the Tung Sun or Ken Rad 6F8G, which may vary depending on the genre of music I'm listening to (singed (male or female), only orchestra, mixed, etc.)
With my system improved with treatment of the main power, with a regenerator and an upgrade in the DAC as well as taking utmost care in the environment in which a valve component should be (Amp and DAC) due to the characteristic microphonie of the valves by electromagnetic influences of outer RFs and interinfluence, I think EL12n as powers are in the same league competing with GEC 6AS7G. Its quality is distinguished by the total absence of background noise as well as its transparency. Water is clearer and more balanced in the context of frequencies. The bass will not be as deep as in the GECs but they are pure, fast and well defined. The highs go to the limit of transparency since it is with the mid and treble that I measure the "cleaning" and balance, and the middle ones are balanced without any hole in the horizontality of the spectrum

The GEC are what I can call the "luxury". They have all what the EL12n’s are, more the sweetness and harmony and color of music. They are rounder, perhaps less sss, with perfect bass (bass - where this valve pops up)

However, the current high price of GECs is unbearable and inflated by speculators, and the price of EL12n may be highly attractive.
Finally:
It does not replace the GECs, but they are very close by, occupying, at will, the 2nd place of my list of Powers. I did not try them as drivers, because I did not have any options as powers


----------



## pctazhp

Just want to say that if I needed an ego boost, HeadFi would be one of the last places I would look to find it. The F-A threads have long been more than just about tubes and equipment. I have developed strong friendships through these threads, loved knowing what my fellow Feliksites like listening to, and enjoyed all the friendly banter. We all have our own subjective views towards tubes and equipment, and reading about the experiences of others has enhanced my enjoyment of this hobby immensely. But if tubes and equipment were the only things we talked about on these threads, they would not be very active.


----------



## mondrax

Just got mine, and holy cow!!!  I cou


----------



## UntilThen

mondrax said:


> Just got mine, and holy cow!!!  I cou



Sorry what happened to the cow?


----------



## DecentLevi

mondrax said:


> Just got mine, and holy cow!!!  I cou



Hello Mondrax, glad you received my Elise in top flight and it's serving you well, according to our PM's. You mentioned you're already impressed with the stock Svetlana 6H13C powers + orange 6SN7's, and possibly to your disenchantment I had mentioned trying even better tubes like bottle shaped ('ST') EL 12's + EL11 or EL12, and some budget great performing options Tungsram E80CC or RCA 6080. How has my amp been doing you, and do you have any comments / questions? Post here so we can help you too in case I'm not in.


----------



## mordy

Hi FR,

Thanks for your review and comments on the EL12N. I do have the GEC 6AS7G, but ATM I enjoy the EL12N as my standard power tubes. I have 7 of them, 5 used + one new pair, all with different names and from different years, but they all sound the same. As you mentioned, the prices are very reasonable at this time. 
My best combination with the EL12N is with a pair of old Telefunken EL11 and a pair of 6J32P (EF86) Svetlana tubes. What I specially like is how cool they are running compared to the 6080/6AS7 tubes.

Regarding this forum (and all others) personal attacks must be avoided at all cost. Everybody has different taste and different equipment, and we have to respect that. What is very interesting to me is that people whom I may disagree with are able to contribute in major ways, be it in insights where to buy tubes or trying new things etc etc.

On a different note, it appears to me that pentode strapped  triodes as drivers is a good way to go with the Elise/Euforia. I stumbled upon a mesh pentode that is very inexpensive, and I want to know if anybody has experience with it and if we already have an adapter that will work with it:







http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6sg7gt.html


----------



## tjw321

mordy said:


> Hi FR,
> 
> ...
> My best combination with the EL12N is with a pair of old Telefunken EL11 and a pair of 6J32P (EF86) Svetlana tubes. What I specially like is how cool they are running compared to the 6080/6AS7 tubes.
> ...


I'm currently running the EL12N/EF86 combination myself. Very cool (temperature wise) and a really nice natural/neutral sound.
The only drawback for me, is my EL12Ns occasional make that pinging noise you get during warming up/cooling down, but they still continue to do it during normal play, and it comes through the headphones - so I've ordered a couple more before the prices go up too much.


----------



## mordy

Hi tjw321,

I don't hear any pinging noises, but I only listen through speakers. Which EF86 tubes are you using?
I only have the Svetlana 6J32P and one RFT ATM. Looking for Philips/Valvo and TFK but have not found the price point I like yet.....
Also looking for Matsushita mesh tubes.


----------



## mordy

The Matsu shiiiita name has been censored by Head Fi..


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> The Matsu shiiiita name has been censored by Head Fi..



lol Matsu shiita .

My latest EF86 is Mullard brand from Langrex. It's a very good sounding tube on both Euforia and La Figaro 339.


----------



## tjw321

mordy said:


> Hi tjw321,
> 
> I don't hear any pinging noises, but I only listen through speakers. Which EF86 tubes are you using?
> I only have the Svetlana 6J32P and one RFT ATM. Looking for Philips/Valvo and TFK but have not found the price point I like yet.....
> Also looking for Matsu****a mesh tubes.





UntilThen said:


> lol Matsu shiita .
> 
> My latest EF86 is Mullard brand from Langrex. It's a very good sounding tube on both Euforia and La Figaro 339.


That is the very one that I have.


----------



## Spork67

Off topic - Caught 4 trout today.




 



On topic - not a single one was wearing headphones.


----------



## UntilThen

Sporky I must admit that perhaps we're better off getting into fishing than deeper into head-fi.


----------



## mordy

Hi Sporky,

So now I know where Costco AU gets their trout.....


----------



## frederick-rea

Soft Nordic Jazz


----------



## mondrax

Levi,
The amp is doing beautifully everything I throw at it it handles it superbly, I had Hendrix, Louise Armstrong, Queen , Plink Floyd, playing in front of me last night,  I even watched a couple of movies as well. Until I realized it was 4 am.


----------



## DecentLevi

That's great Mondrax! You may also like RCA 6080 even better and I just saw some great looking pairs in eBay for cheap. Those 6SN7's I gave you include the RCA 6SN7 GTA's which were some of my all-time favorite... for the Ember and Elise anyway, but to me didn't seem to pair so well with the Euforia. The RCA 6080's though were one of the surprise pairings I found for the Euforia, making it sound very refined and solid-state like.

I just gave my first "like" now that the new Head-Fi has it... at least unlike that 'other' audiophile site that's not to be mentioned here there is no "dislike" option, which works favorably for me anyway, LOL


----------



## richdytch

I've had an unexpected shift in my relation with the Elise recently. I bought a pair of the new 70w temple audio monoblocks to power my speakers, and it turns out that they are so astonishingly good that unfortunately, putting the Elise in the signal path as a preamp, seems like a real step down. However, I'm still delighted with it as a headphone amp, so I think I'll just start using cans a bit more frequently. Might even investigate getting better headphones at some point, although I do love the he400. Modern class D kit is getting really amazing for the money. I'm going to try and hold off using speaker taps for my headphones on the monos.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> Just want to say that if I needed an ego boost, HeadFi would be one of the last places I would look to find it. The F-A threads have long been more than just about tubes and equipment. I have developed strong friendships through these threads, loved knowing what my fellow Feliksites like listening to, and enjoyed all the friendly banter. We all have our own subjective views towards tubes and equipment, and reading about the experiences of others has enhanced my enjoyment of this hobby immensely. But if tubes and equipment were the only things we talked about on these threads, they would not be very active.



Hey pct...may I just confirm you are one of the _least_ egotistical guys I know lol! And, along with the other main contributors to the F-A threads (not forgetting those more occasional, but equally welcome members), have made them among the most popular here at head-fi for some years now - as commented upon by numerous newcomers!

You and I know (as do most folks, I'm sure) that what _really_ turns people away from forums is elitist, verbose language...of which I too have occasionally been guilty in the past, but now try to minimise whenever possible lol! 

And so I hope that you and the other active members continue in the vein that I'm sure does not in fact detract others from participating here, and who I am also sure are more than capable of standing their own ground in debate!...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## connieflyer

Welcome back H1,  hope all is well with you and yours.  Now that you are all rested up,  perhaps you can help stir up the interest on these threads.


----------



## connieflyer

Well I was going to post a welcome back video but I see that this stupid software only has post a reply or upload a file. I was able to do it before, getting tired of this,  I will try a hyper link  If this does not work you can find me at Computer Audiophile.


----------



## connieflyer

Looks like that worked,not like they did not know this was coming, poor prep work


----------



## Oskari

The new site is far from perfect and there are features of the old site that I miss. There is one huge advantage, though. The new site is less heavy and loads faster on my tablet and on my low-end computer.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Welcome back H1,  hope all is well with you and yours.  Now that you are all rested up,  perhaps you can help stir up the interest on these threads.



Rested up, cf?..._you are joking, right?!!_ Getting ready for even just a short break is one big workup these days lol! 

But rest assured on my return I shall be boring folks with my latest exploits re. Naim Uniti Core and giant Airlink Transformer's Balanced Mains power unit (with Avery Magnetics Advanced Filter System)...but in short...*WOW!!*...(regardless of amp used, no doubt...). BFN...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> The new site is far from perfect and there are features of the old site that I miss. There is one huge advantage, though. The new site is less heavy and loads faster on my tablet and on my low-end computer.



Yo, Oskari. Certain changes/omissions are a pity, but am beginning to warm a bit more to the new site. No doubt further improvements will come along as they manage to complete the project and (hopefully!) listen to folks' comments/criticisms...


----------



## mondrax

Hey folks,  boy and girls,  It is all about music isn't it, let's keep it alive. i just got a turntable and going to experiment  fuhrer.

Cheers everybody and keep listening...

Mondrax


----------



## hypnos1

mondrax said:


> Hey folks,  boy and girls,  It is all about music isn't it, let's keep it alive. i just got a turntable and going to experiment  fuhrer.
> 
> Cheers everybody and keep listening...
> 
> Mondrax



Yes indeed, mondrax....*the music is King!!*...

We look forward to your impressions via TT...(I'm sure @UntilThen will be especially interested, given his own love of vinyl lol! ...).


----------



## mordy

Very interesting to see that there is a lot of movement and innovation in the British hi-fi industry.


----------



## UntilThen

mondrax said:


> Hey folks,  boy and girls,  It is all about music isn't it, let's keep it alive. i just got a turntable and going to experiment  fuhrer.
> 
> Cheers everybody and keep listening...
> 
> Mondrax



Indeed it's all about music and we do want our music to sound musical don't we? That is why we buy tube amps and turntables. If we go into DACs we want it to sound analogue, organic and not digital. 

I do have a humble Denon TT but it's was a new gift from wife about a year ago. Straight into Elise or Euforia for lovely sound. On top of that, @connieflyer so lovingly send me a pile of his treasured LPs all the way from Michigan to Sydney. If you read the Elise thread, you will see the LPs from my short photo reviews. 

However, I'm about to change my DAC. Very shortly I'll take the plunge for a Denafrips Ares r2r DAC. There's some lively discussions of it on that thread now. If you think that's not a good idea, do let me know now.


----------



## angpsi

Hey guys, got me a while (and a password reset) to get back online but I just had to say hi!


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Sorry what happened to the cow?



Who let the cows out?



Cows are awesome!


----------



## Oskari (May 2, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Hey guys, got me a while (and a password reset) to get back online but I just had to say hi!



Hei! Looking good. Are your Mullards trouble-free?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hey guys, got me a while (and a password reset) to get back online but I just had to say hi!



I like to say hi too !

You're running with the combination that I like but I'm running with these now. It's a Tung Sol world.


----------



## UntilThen

It's broken... I can't post pictures now.


----------



## Spork67

So - anyone bought any headphones from Columbia lately?...


----------



## UntilThen

Spork67 said:


> So - anyone bought any headphones from Columbia lately?...



They use better wood?


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> Hei! Looking good. Are your Mullards trouble-free?





UntilThen said:


> I like to say hi too !
> 
> You're running with the combination that I like but I'm running with these now. It's a Tung Sol world.


I've only got them just yesterday, but I ran them for the full day (around 6 hours) and they sing wonderfully along with the Psvane! They also seemed to open up more by the hour, if that makes any sense.

Initial impressions include an incredibly silent background, rendering details with authority yet not mellow (if not rounded, warm and jazzy) as the RCA 6080 and quite more substantial compared to the stock Svetlana 6n13s. I can't really find the words to describe a general label for what they do, but for now I'd call them refined, confident, and powerful. If I hadn't experienced all the other combos so far, I don't think I'd be able to position them in such terms because they're not as impressive as the EL variety right away. Overall, I really like them and I think @UntilThen and @HPLobster got it right to appreciate the combo!

Last note, I don't know if Langrex had cleaned them up or they were indeed new and unused tubes but they looked all shiny and in pristine condition once I opened the box!


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks to you the price of Mullard 6080 has just sky rocketed.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Thanks to you the price of Mullard 6080 has just sky rocketed.


 Hah! Perhaps I should ask Langrex for commission then! Or,—better yet—let all of us here set up a fund and start steering the market to our benefit!


----------



## Spork67

UntilThen said:


> They use better wood?



http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...a/news-story/15550eb41b4cc55d95363a9d21a514fb

Don't think the wood is the attraction...


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Thanks to you the price of Mullard 6080 has just sky rocketed.





angpsi said:


> Hah! Perhaps I should ask Langrex for commission then! Or,—better yet—let all of us here set up a fund and start steering the market to our benefit!



Haven't tried my Mullard 6080s in almost a year. Inspired by the two of you, I popped them in this morning. Very great - price will skyrocket


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Initial impressions include an incredibly silent background



No noises then, which is good. That can sometimes be a problem.



angpsi said:


> I don't know if Langrex had cleaned them up or they were indeed new and unused tubes but they looked all shiny and in pristine condition once I opened the box!



I don't think they'd do that. The tubes are likely new old stock stored in perfect warm and dry conditions.


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> I don't think they'd do that. The tubes are likely new old stock stored in perfect warm and dry conditions.


Well, they do have 185 of them available! https://www.langrex.co.uk/product/6080-mullard-nos-boxed-valvetube/


----------



## angpsi

Anyone care to comment on how the GEC 6080 A1834 compares to the Mullard 6080? And while at it, what are the differences between the CV2984, the CV5008 and the A1834?


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Well, they do have 185 of them available! https://www.langrex.co.uk/product/6080-mullard-nos-boxed-valvetube/



I should have bought some ages ago.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Anyone care to comment on how the GEC 6080 A1834 compares to the Mullard 6080? And while at it, what are the differences between the CV2984, the CV5008 and the A1834?



As @UntilThen, I've pretty much given up trying to describe the differences between tubes. But since I may be one of the few who has both the Mullard and GEC 6080s, I'll say a few words. The Mullard is a good power tube, but certainly not my favorite. The GEC is one of my favorites. It has more slam than the GEC6AS7G and much of its refinement. The 6AS7G is more laid back, but a little more refined and involving than the GEC 6080. Note that the GEC6080 is not that far different in SQ from the 6AS7G, and in some systems I could see someone preferring the 6080 to the 6AS7G. At the price Langrex is asking, I would think it is worth a shot. I paid $150 for a pair of GEC6080s on Ebay a while back.


----------



## mordy (May 3, 2017)

Take a look at these headphones - it appears to me that they are the same as Beyerdynamic T1 Gen 1 at $599 with free shipping:
https://www.adorama.com/akt1p.html?...t&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_source=rflaid62905





Edit: As per the below link it appears that these headphones are 32 Ohm instead of 600 and have some minor changes/improvements:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AstellKern-...893370?hash=item4b16ab9f3a:g:T2UAAOSwtGlZCbL0


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Edit: As per the below link it appears that these headphones are 32 Ohm instead of 600 and have some minor changes/improvements:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/AstellKern-...893370?hash=item4b16ab9f3a:g:T2UAAOSwtGlZCbL0



Interesting find))) Seems like these are focused primarily at the portable market, which much be fairly small. I don't think most people want to wear full sized, open headphones when they are in ambulatory mode.

If I were buying a T1 (a truly wonderful headphone) today, I would stick with the 600 ohm version. 32 will certainly work with Elise, but 600 is probably more ideal. But I've never been much of a portable-file.


----------



## Spork67

pctazhp said:


> Interesting find))) Seems like these are focused primarily at the portable market, which much be fairly small. I don't think most people want to wear full sized, open headphones when they are in ambulatory mode.
> 
> If I were buying a T1 (a truly wonderful headphone) today, I would stick with the 600 ohm version. 32 will certainly work with Elise, but 600 is probably more ideal. But I've never been much of a portable-file.



This. The housing looks the same, and possibly the earpads are the same too. But the drivers would be quite different to go from 600z down to 32. For mobile use these might be great - but for a good tube amp, I'd go with the T1 any day of the week. These aren't that much cheaper than what the T1 often pop up for.


----------



## pctazhp

In case anyone has missed it, here is a nice review on Elise: http://headfonics.com/2016/12/the-elise-by-feliks-audio/


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Great review of the Elise, this helped me to make my decision to purchase the Elise.

Can anyone please recommend a DAC for use with the Elise?

Have just purchased a couple of those Mullard 6080's, from Langrex, so may have upped the price a bit more


----------



## pctazhp

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Great review of the Elise, this helped me to make my decision to purchase the Elise.
> 
> Can anyone please recommend a DAC for use with the Elise?
> 
> Have just purchased a couple of those Mullard 6080's, from Langrex, so may have upped the price a bit more



I am very confident you be be extremely happy with your purchase. But now you are part of our cult. We used to always refer to ourselves as the Lucky Ones)))  I love my Schiit Bifrost MultiBit DAC, but you will probably get other recommendations. I view the Bimby in much the same light as Elise - extremely good value for the money and sure to bring you years of listening enjoyment.

Oh, warning. Our cult is like Hotel California. You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave


----------



## UntilThen

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Great review of the Elise, this helped me to make my decision to purchase the Elise.
> 
> Can anyone please recommend a DAC for use with the Elise?
> 
> Have just purchased a couple of those Mullard 6080's, from Langrex, so may have upped the price a bit more



I'm going to get a Denafrips Ares DAC ($598) for Elise and Euforia.... to replace the NAD d1050 that I currently use now. Will post impressions when it happens. Was also thinking about the Gumby ($1349) but that's more than twice the price. There's also the Holo Spring DAC - Kitsune Tuned edition at $2499. At this rate I'll have to sell my deck....

I have been listening to Euforia with Psvane 6sn7 and Mullard 6080 for many days now. With modified HD650, I'm loving the tone. Nice full bodied sound and a prominent bass. Really great with vocals and Knopfler's guitar magic.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I am very confident you be be extremely happy with your purchase. But now you are part of our cult. We used to always refer to ourselves as the Lucky Ones)))  I love my Schiit Bifrost MultiBit DAC, but you will probably get other recommendations. I view the Bimby in much the same light as Elise - extremely good value for the money and sure to bring you years of listening enjoyment.
> 
> Oh, warning. Our cult is like Hotel California. You can check out any time you like. But you can never leave



Hotel California in Mexico is being sued.... so be careful which Hotel California you check into. On the other hand, it's quite safe to check into Hotel DownUnder. 

I like to know how the Denafrips Ares compares to the Bimby. The latter cost $1 more.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> I'm going to get a Denafrips Ares DAC ($598) for Elise and Euforia.... to replace the NAD d1050 that I currently use now. Will post impressions when it happens. Was also thinking about the Gumby ($1349) but that's more than twice the price. There's also the Holo Spring DAC - Kitsune Tuned edition at $2499. At this rate I'll have to sell my deck....
> 
> I have been listening to Euforia with Psvane 6sn7 and Mullard 6080 for many days now. With modified HD650, I'm loving the tone. Nice full bodied sound and a prominent bass. Really great with vocals and Knopfler's guitar magic.





UntilThen said:


> Hotel California in Mexico is being sued.... so be careful which Hotel California you check into. On the other hand, it's quite safe to check into Hotel DownUnder.
> 
> I'll keep your travel tips in mind when I plan my next vacation.
> 
> ...


----------



## pctazhp

Crap. Everything below "Hotel California in Mexico...." in my above post are my words. This new format is getting old fast. Bah humbug!!!!!


----------



## frederick-rea

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Great review of the Elise, this helped me to make my decision to purchase the Elise.
> 
> Can anyone please recommend a DAC for use with the Elise?
> 
> Have just purchased a couple of those Mullard 6080's, from Langrex, so may have upped the price a bit more



For you and Elise I found the best "tube" DAC == Lampizator Amber II


----------



## UntilThen

@pctazhp  I'll do a bit more diggy on Bimby, Gumby and Yggy. 

Unlikely that I will get a Yggy because then I'll feel that I need a new tube amp. 

I'm thinking Gumby after reading this... good comparison to the Chord Hugo.
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/01/zesty-and-sweet-the-stunning-schiit-gungnir-multibit-dac/


----------



## angpsi

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Great review of the Elise, this helped me to make my decision to purchase the Elise.
> 
> Can anyone please recommend a DAC for use with the Elise?
> 
> Have just purchased a couple of those Mullard 6080's, from Langrex, so may have upped the price a bit more


Hi @SnapperMusicFan and welcome! Good choice to buy the Elise—honestly I had been sceptical for quite some time since I haven't had any experience with headphones and headphone amps, but since the Mullard and after having gone through a certain mileage experimenting with EL tubes and the upgraded stock configuration I can safely tell you that you're in for a good treat of long hours in audio bliss!

In regard to choosing a DAC, if you care to wait I've been meaning to test my old and trusty Benchmark DAC1 with the Elise. These used to be top-tier $2000 DACs back in the day and now they go for about $400. Haven't heard any of the current breed mid-tier DACs (nor the TOTL ones for that matter), but if the combo proves to be good, maybe you might want to consider going for vintage.


----------



## UntilThen

The more I read about the Gumby and Yggy, the more I'm suck in.

I should have listen more attentively to the Yggy and Rag combo at the meet.

Time to give JimmyBoi a call.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> @pctazhp  I'll do a bit more diggy on Bimby, Gumby and Yggy.
> 
> Unlikely that I will get a Yggy because then I'll feel that I need a new tube amp.
> 
> ...





UntilThen said:


> The more I read about the Gumby and Yggy, the more I'm suck in.
> 
> I should have listen more attentively to the Yggy and Rag combo at the meet.
> 
> Time to give JimmyBoi a call.



Well I must admit I'm glad to see Schiit MB DACs getting some attention here. When it comes to DACs here, I feel like the Lone Ranger with my Bimby. Over on the HD800S thread when I talk about Elise I feel like the Lone Ranger there.

I've been talking to a guy on the S thread who owns a Bimby and an S. He's looking for an amp. I told him, among other things, that I view my Bimby in much the same way as I view Elise. Extremely high performance for a reasonable price - a point about Schiit mentioned in the review you cited.

I can be very confident that if you do get the Gumby you will not in any way be disappointed

.


----------



## pctazhp (May 6, 2017)

@UntilThen My fellow Bimby owner (actually Bimby is a little too close to Bimbo for my comfort) on the HD800S thread said that he had seen a post from Mike Moffat saying he was was working on an upgrade to Bimby and that it is "spine tingling". I haven't seen Mike's post, but just thought I'd mention it. One thing great about the Schiit MB DACs is they are built for easy upgrade.

Edit:  WOW. Just realized it is again possible to edit posts. Maybe that has been part of the new format all along and I just noticed it. But I usually write first and think later, so it is one of my favorite features.


----------



## angpsi

The Mullard 6080 are actually making me _happy_! I hate the weekend, it takes me away from my Elise [–on–Mullard]...

Btw, my EL tubes are now live on Ebay auctions as pairs. I wonder what will happen!...


----------



## UntilThen

Pct, you are not alone in the universe. JT has a Bimby too with his Elise. Pretty sure @HOWIE13  has a Mimby too but he doesn't talk about it much now. I think he's using a Audiolab M-DAC now.

I don't really care about DSD and hirez. I don't have much of those files. I do have a lot of good quality CDs, Chesky included. I find Tidal HiFi good enough for me. So I'm looking for a DAC that does 16/44 or Redbook very well. That is where I understand multibit or the ladder dacs do well. Ladder is important. Helps me to get to the lower part of the garden... ok I'm thinking of a different deck now.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> The Mullard 6080 are actually making me _happy_! I hate the weekend, it takes me away from my Elise [–on–Mullard]...
> 
> Btw, my EL tubes are now live on Ebay auctions as pairs. I wonder what will happen!...



I find a lot of tube combinations sound very good on Elise / Euforia. 

The Mullards with Psvane sounds good but so does Tung Sol 6sn7gtb (60's black base) with Bendix 6080wb slotted plates. Pct were singing their praises and I agree with his ears. 

Good luck with selling the EL tubes but I'm going through an interesting phase now. Shopping for a new DAC....


----------



## UntilThen

Now if you excuse me, I need to read more about multibit dacs and Gumby in particular.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> The Mullard 6080 are actually making me _happy_!



I take it you like Mullets hairstyle. Here's a song for you.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> I find a lot of tube combinations sound very good on Elise / Euforia.
> 
> The Mullards with Psvane sounds good but so does Tung Sol 6sn7gtb (60's black base) with Bendix 6080wb slotted plates. Pct were singing their praises and I agree with his ears.
> 
> Good luck with selling the EL tubes but I'm going through an interesting phase now. Shopping for a new DAC....





UntilThen said:


> Now if you excuse me, I need to read more about multibit dacs and Gumby in particular.


 You are excused—I kinda envy you! Looking forward to yours and @hypnos1 impressions on the impact these new DACs bring into the mix.
TungSol and Bendix don't look like a prohibitive sum of $ to try out; if I get any money out of the EL tubes I'll probably give them a try, thanks!


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Pct, you are not alone in the universe. JT has a Bimby too with his Elise. Pretty sure @HOWIE13  has a Mimby too but he doesn't talk about it much now. I think he's using a Audiolab M-DAC now.
> 
> I don't really care about DSD and hirez. I don't have much of those files. I do have a lot of good quality CDs, Chesky included. I find Tidal HiFi good enough for me. So I'm looking for a DAC that does 16/44 or Redbook very well. That is where I understand multibit or the ladder dacs do well. *Ladder is important*. Helps me to get to the lower part of the garden... ok I'm thinking of a different deck now.



Maybe you can think of multibit as:



My apologies to Led Zeppelin for choosing Neil Sedaka over them.

PS. Glad to learn I'm don't have to be the Lone Ranger here. Maybe JT, Howie and I can be the Three Amigoes


----------



## connieflyer

go for it!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> go for it!



If you are talking about morning coffee, I'm already on my second cup.


----------



## connieflyer

Per your quote "
PS. Glad to learn I'm don't have to be the Lone Ranger here. Maybe JT, Howie and I can be the Three Amigoes"
Coffee is done for today, ripping cd's to Sony Hap s1 using multi-pass (very slow) but no errors.  Ripping to Wav files for these and find them as good if not better than ripping to flac, mp3. Have plenty of room for collection now, so don't need to compress. As always ymmv


----------



## angpsi

Hi all, anyone tried to EQ their headphones as per this guide? I'm enticed to try it out for myself, so I wonder whether there's any prior experience in this respect.


----------



## connieflyer

If you are using Jriver or any software that uses VST plugins this is an excellent file.  You can try for 21 days free gives a list of headphones that they have already eq'd
http://www.sonarworks.com/


----------



## blackrain139

Just got my Elise and I'm loving it.

For those who had the pleasure of trying different tubes on the Elise, which tubes provides the warmest tone?

I'm pairing it with the HD800 and I want to try and achieve the warm tubey sound.

The stock tubes sounds amazing with my El-8


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> If you are using Jriver or any software that uses VST plugins this is an excellent file.  You can try for 21 days free gives a list of headphones that they have already eq'd
> http://www.sonarworks.com/


Thanks, I'm on it!


----------



## Oskari (May 9, 2017)

Now add this to the pile!


_Pennies from heaven_


----------



## UntilThen

blackrain139 said:


> Just got my Elise and I'm loving it.
> 
> For those who had the pleasure of trying different tubes on the Elise, which tubes provides the warmest tone?
> 
> ...



Good to hear you are loving Elise with your HD800. For a really warm tone, try RCA 6SN7gt vt231 smoke glass and RCA 6as7g. Might be too warm.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Hi All,

Many thanks for your DAC suggestions, lots to read about. Can someone please translate a Bimby/Mimby? are these Schiit DAC's too & if so which ones?

My Mullard 6080's arrived today, going to try them with the Psvanes first


----------



## HOWIE13 (May 11, 2017)

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Many thanks for your DAC suggestions, lots to read about. Can someone please translate a Bimby/Mimby? are these Schiit DAC's too & if so which ones?
> 
> My Mullard 6080's arrived today, going to try them with the Psvanes first



Mimby=Schiit Modi Multibit
Bimby=Schiit Bifrost Multibit.

Strictly speaking they should have had an _i_ at the end not a _y_

You can read all about them on Schiit's very good website.

I am using Mimby at present and it sounds very good to me.


----------



## GangGang

Have people stopped turning their Elise into a Xmas tree yet? Really hope new members don't follow these "mods"


----------



## pctazhp

GangGang said:


> Have people stopped turning their Elise into a Xmas tree yet? Really hope new members don't follow these "mods"



Recent sightings of Christmas trees in Elise-land are virtually non-existent


----------



## angpsi (May 12, 2017)

GangGang said:


> Have people stopped turning their Elise into a Xmas tree yet? Really hope new members don't follow these "mods"


 Hey @GangGang, this is exactly the core foundation of this thread, albeit some diversions have been indulged during the 539 pages it spans. Here's what thread starter @pctazhp wrote in post#1:



pctazhp said:


> I’m trying this new Elise thread as an experiment to see if there are those interested in a basic Elise thread. Of course, I can’t dictate the rules for this or any thread and would not presume to try. But I am suggesting the following guidelines for those who might be interested in this type of thread:
> :
> 
> This is intended as a thread for those who are primarily interested in the 1-tube-per-socket (with or without single-tube adapters) approach to the Elise – for both current owners of the magnificent Feliks Audio Elise and those who are considering a purchase.
> ...


#EDIT: Come to think of it, people have even begun to steer away from tubes that are not within the original specifications of Feliks Audio! Whole world gone mad, maybe?!?


----------



## GangGang

I think that's a good thing. Too many people without knowledge or a background in tube amp manufacturing doing crazy stuff. The amount of a train that it puts on components.


----------



## Oskari

_An Gabhar Bán_


----------



## angpsi

GangGang said:


> I think that's a good thing. Too many people without knowledge or a background in tube amp manufacturing doing crazy stuff. The amount of a train that it puts on components.


 Well, at least the history of these escapades is well–documented!...


----------



## angpsi

Hi all, taking cue from the recent discussion here and on the Euforia thread about DACs etc, I wanted to ask your opinion on a possible upgrade path; namely, now that I finally feel happy enough with the Mullards in, I'm debating whether to get a Chord Mojo first and then look for a pair of Beyer T1, or the other way around. Looks like either of these go for around £450-500 but if I take the step it would have to be one over the other.

What do you think? (especially calling on @hypnos1, @pctazhp @UntilThen @mordy and all the rest of the crew with experience or currently experimenting on the subject)

PS. I've been reading through the original Elise thread these days, and there's lots of info which come through with the new light of actually owning the Elise! Plus, what fun to check with all the original agonies at the time of the Elise's birth!


----------



## DecentLevi (May 14, 2017)

nickbojko said:


> I have been watching this post from the beginning and I think the tube swapping has run its course.It's time to step up the game and proceed to improve the amp itself.First change the input coupling cap with a solid piece of OCC silver wire{big sonic improvement}.Second add a bypass cap to the 2.2uf output capacitor{two top picks are a .033 to .050uf teflon cap from russia or Jupitor copper foil of same value,the russian cap needs to be modded-remove aluminum cover and replace the leads with occ siver wire,I have complete instuctions for those interested.I strongly recommend replacing all signal path wiring with solid occ silver wire.Seems production costs have used standed average wire in signal path.These changes will make a bigger sonic improvement than chasing the tube swap monster.Not that tube swapping is not an improvement but you will hear things you have not heard before and more musically natural and real.After this is complete I will have more updates for you since my unit is far from stock!



I take it you're drawing inspiration from the Euforia, which is basically the already upgraded Elise that also has silver wiring, upgraded caps, etc., right?


----------



## GangGang

angpsi said:


> Hi all, taking cue from the recent discussion here and on the Euforia thread about DACs etc, I wanted to ask your opinion on a possible upgrade path; namely, now that I finally feel happy enough with the Mullards in, I'm debating whether to get a Chord Mojo first and then look for a pair of Beyer T1, or the other way around. Looks like either of these go for around £450-500 but if I take the step it would have to be one over the other.
> 
> What do you think? (especially calling on @hypnos1, @pctazhp @UntilThen @mordy and all the rest of the crew with experience or currently experimenting on the subject)
> 
> PS. I've been reading through the original Elise thread these days, and there's lots of info which come through with the new light of actually owning the Elise! Plus, what fun to check with all the original agonies at the time of the Elise's birth!


Chord Mojo as a DAC isn't great value IMO. I would personally look in something like a Modi Multibit. 

With a chain like that the T1 wouldn't really be worth getting as the 600 series is a more resolving and better tonally balanced headphone especially on TOTL tube gear. 

Getting a HD600 or HD650 upgrade is difficult and there isn't really an upgrade path for them apart from simply getting better gear.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Hi all, taking cue from the recent discussion here and on the Euforia thread about DACs etc, I wanted to ask your opinion on a possible upgrade path; namely, now that I finally feel happy enough with the Mullards in, I'm debating whether to get a Chord Mojo first and then look for a pair of Beyer T1, or the other way around. Looks like either of these go for around £450-500 but if I take the step it would have to be one over the other.
> 
> What do you think? (especially calling on @hypnos1, @pctazhp @UntilThen @mordy and all the rest of the crew with experience or currently experimenting on the subject)
> 
> PS. I've been reading through the original Elise thread these days, and there's lots of info which come through with the new light of actually owning the Elise! Plus, what fun to check with all the original agonies at the time of the Elise's birth!



I have not heard the Chord Mojo, but you would be paying for both a DAC and an amp. With the Elise you don't need the amp. I have had my Schiit Bimby for a year and half and I love it (most of that time running it with Elise). At $600 I think it is hard to beat. And many think the lower cost Mimby is just as good. My guess is either would be preferable to the Mojo. And the Bimby is upgradeable for future. I feel confident that either the Mimby or Bimby would be very compatible with a T1. I had a T1 for a month with my Bimby (and Elise) and that was a wonderful combination.

The Schiit DACs are all designed by Mike Moffat, who probably is as knowledgeable about DACs as anyone, and unlike a lot of current designers, was a very early digital pioneer, having designed the Theta 5 DAC which is legendary. So if I were you, I'd start with either Mimby or Bimby and then T1. I know I shouldn't say this, but I think you'd be crazy to do anything else!!!!


----------



## mordy (May 14, 2017)

Hi GG,

Just curious what ancillary equipment you used when you auditioned the Chord Mojo and the T1  - thanks.


----------



## GangGang (May 14, 2017)

Mojo on its own

Mojo Dac'd with

Elise
Zana Deux
HP8
Lyr2
Valhalla 2

many more.

I sold my T1. I currently own the HD800, HD650, Nighthawk, LCD-2 and LCD-3. The T1 apart from the LCD-2 was the least resolving of the bunch.


----------



## nickbojko

DecentLevi said:


> I take it you're drawing inspiration from the Euforia, which is basically the already upgraded Elise that also has silver wiring, upgraded caps, etc., right?


No not really,when I first received it I opened it up to see the schematic and parts quality.I have been doing this since the 70's,so the minor cap upgrade and wire change would be simple things for most people.This is just the tip of the iceburg on what could be done to this unit!


----------



## aqsw

I might not be too popular around here after this.
Not really a Schiit fan. I had a Bifrost and Lyr. Could not get rid of them fast enough, after hearing some quality dacs and amps.
Schiit just left a bad taste in my mouth (LOL). Maybe their new stuff is better, but I'm very happy with the dacs and amps I replaced them with.


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> I might not be too popular around here after this.
> Not really a Schiit fan. I had a Bifrost and Lyr. Could not get rid of them fast enough, after hearing some quality dacs and amps.
> Schiit just left a bad taste in my mouth (LOL). Maybe their new stuff is better, but I'm very happy with the dacs and amps I replaced them with.



My mother taught me more important to be right than popular. Fortunately I've always been both 

I have a Valhalla 2 and never been particularly impressed with it. Haven't heard any other Schiit amp. Just curious about your Bifrost. Was it multibit?


----------



## DavidA

angpsi said:


> Hi all, taking cue from the recent discussion here and on the Euforia thread about DACs etc, I wanted to ask your opinion on a possible upgrade path; namely, now that I finally feel happy enough with the Mullards in, I'm debating whether to get a Chord Mojo first and then look for a pair of Beyer T1, or the other way around. Looks like either of these go for around £450-500 but if I take the step it would have to be one over the other.
> 
> What do you think? (especially calling on @hypnos1, @pctazhp @UntilThen @mordy and all the rest of the crew with experience or currently experimenting on the subject)
> 
> PS. I've been reading through the original Elise thread these days, and there's lots of info which come through with the new light of actually owning the Elise! Plus, what fun to check with all the original agonies at the time of the Elise's birth!



The Mojo is not a good stand alone DAC at the price but as a portable DAC/amp its quite good except for some headphones like the HE560, HD800 and T1.1 from the few times I've borrowed the Mojo from a friend.  The Mimby is the cheapest MB DAC and its a great value but there are better DACs that I would also look at.  In your sig you have a Benchmark DAC 1 and Meridian Explorer 2, these are both pretty good/great to start with so getting a better DAC will probably not be in the $400-500 range.  The Hugo is quite a bit better than the Mojo even if the specs seem to indicate they are fairly close.

The T1.1 is a great headphone and the Elise will be great with it but to me the T1.1 does not have the best tonal balance of headphones in its price range.  As one poster suggested that there are not many upgrades to HD600/650 but I've found them in custom built Ypsilon and Nhoord driver builds.  The best thing about them is they sound great out of a computer headphone output or even a cheap Fiio X3 and negate the need for external DACs and amps.

FWIW I'm a little different from most where I have kept most of my headphones and enjoy them for their different sound signatures and am not looking for "upgrades" like many here on head-fi seem to do.  Most headphones are great with a few genres of music but I've yet to find one that can do it all.


----------



## angpsi (May 16, 2017)

@GangGang, @aqsw, @DavidA, and @pctazhp, much obliged for your input; it's really great to be able to gain insight from people who've experimented so extensively with head gear! From what you tell me, it looks like the Elise + HD600 + Meridian Explorer 2 can only go laterally rather than upwards, thus concluding that my original plan to max out at the price point actually worked! 

Having said that, I've recently joined a discussion on a Greek Head-fi thread where local audiophiles seem to think that the 200mW output of the Elise may be rather wimpy compared to the 800mW/channel of the Valhalla 2. Obviously "de gustibus" applies given the stated preference of the people in the Elise threads over the Schiit, but I wonder how does one respond to this scepticism?

EDIT: @GangGang, since you have both I'm particularly keen to hear what you have to say!
EDIT 2: @pctazhp, I know where you stand, obviously, but I'd be happy to hear your arguments on the technical side as well! Plus, Theta Digital does bring the fondest memories of my early audiophile days, albeit entirely out of reach for my pocket even back at a time when I was paying good money for my speakers gear! Or, perhaps I had settled for the Benchmark too soon maybe?

On this opportunity, let me refresh your memory to the fact that the Elise was actually my first ever venture into Head-fi (disregarding a pair of Ety Hf2 which I've been using on my cellphone for quite some years now), therefore I have no basis for comparison!


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## angpsi

DavidA said:


> (...) In your sig you have a Benchmark DAC 1 and Meridian Explorer 2, these are both pretty good/great to start with so getting a better DAC will probably not be in the $400-500 range.  The Hugo is quite a bit better than the Mojo even if the specs seem to indicate they are fairly close.


As I said on another occasion, second–hand Benchmark DAC1s go for about $400 which is great value if they match the performance of contemporary iterations such as Mojo et al. Only problem is that you need a USB to SPDIF converter for those; but given that these also seem to take part in the audio chain improvement discussion maybe they can be thought of as a good investment. Have you had personal experience with comparing these? Or am I better off sticking with my Meridian Explorer 2?

Overall, what would you consider in your opinion 'a higher grade DAC'—would that be Hugo, Bimby, or other—and how would it fare against a Benchmark DAC1 or similar vintage grade stuff?


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## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hi all, taking cue from the recent discussion here and on the Euforia thread about DACs etc, I wanted to ask your opinion on a possible upgrade path; namely, now that I finally feel happy enough with the Mullards in, I'm debating whether to get a Chord Mojo first and then look for a pair of Beyer T1, or the other way around. Looks like either of these go for around £450-500 but if I take the step it would have to be one over the other.
> 
> What do you think? (especially calling on @hypnos1, @pctazhp @UntilThen @mordy and all the rest of the crew with experience or currently experimenting on the subject)
> 
> PS. I've been reading through the original Elise thread these days, and there's lots of info which come through with the new light of actually owning the Elise! Plus, what fun to check with all the original agonies at the time of the Elise's birth!



My answer would be to get a new DAC and headphone together. 

My next purchase will be the Gumby and HD800. Why do I want a HD800? Because after all these years, it is still the most futuristic looking of all headphones and I'd add the most comfortable on your noggin. It also sounds very good to me after hearing it twice at 2 Meets. The last audition was with Euforia. I must be one of the few that likes HD800.


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## DavidA (May 16, 2017)

@angpsi, the watts output is not the only thing to consider, other amp features to consider is the output resistance of the amp, the voltage and even the electrical design type (OTL, Hybrid, and the various SS designs).  I have had a friends Valhalla2 and compared it with my Lyr2 and to me the Lyr2 responds better to different tubes and is more compatible with the majority of my headphones, and the BH Crack is also a better sounding amp than the Valhalla2 IMO when used for high impedance headphones like the HD800 and T1, to be fair mine has different caps and tubes from stock.

Some amps and headphones just go well together, like the BH Crack and HD650/600, they seem to have been made for each other.  I don't own an Elise but have heard it twice and compared it with a few different amps and headphones each time, granted the first was only with the stock tubes but the second time I was able to use a few different power and driver combinations and it does make quite a difference in how the Elise will pair with various headphones.  One conclusion I came to is the Elise is too close to my BH Crack for me to justify its purchase, cost of tubes is going up way too fast these days and I have too many other headphones that didn't pair well with the Elise.  I also got to hear some dream gear like a Liquid Glass, Liquid Gold, Teac HA-501, EC Balancing Act, EC ZDS, Liquid Carbon, Hugo & Hugo TT, MicroZOTL2, and a few others and since I'm getting older and my hearing will only get worst as I age as good as the high end gear sounds its only going to waste for me.  I've gotten to hear and have quite a few headphones and as I stated earlier just like the different sound signatures but there are a few favorites: HD800, EL8-open, Ypsilon R1-(a better HD600 IMO), Nhoord Red V2-(a better HD650 IMO and to a few that have heard it), RS2e, HD700, and HE560.  I've traded my SR009/SRM007mk2 for a few cases of really good wine and passed on buying the Liquid Glass from a friend so you can see where my priorities are.

One thing I think you should consider is the quality of the music that you use, most CD's are okay but after listening to some 24/96 FLAC of well recorded / mastered classical, jazz and blues it shows the limitation of CD's with some albums where I have both.

As for the Benchmark DAC I've only heard one a few years ago but it did impress me back then.  For DACs I currently have a Bimby, Uber, Modi2uber, Teac UD-301 and Teac AH-01.  I was looking at MHDT Pagoda, Metrum Musette, Teac UD-501 and the new Hugo2 as those on my short list.


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## GangGang (May 16, 2017)

The Vallhalla2 is technically a great amp but it has a grainy dry character and lacks balls. The Bottlehead Crack isn't as technically good as the more resolving Valhalla2 and I even found the Vali 2(Smoother than the Val2) to be more resolving than the stock Crack with SB but the Crack just slams like a Mofo.

There's just setting magical about the HD650 + BHC paring that makes resolution nor matter, it just slams, has amazing liquidity.

I'm actually in the search for another Crack because the HD650 and crack paring just sound like real music. I still think the HD650 is the best headphone out there when it comes to it's combination of resolution, micro detail, smooth treble and tonal balance and tjay magical timbre. I much prefer it over my HD800, LCD-2 and LCD-3.

I think the Elise is better than the BHC but the BHC is much more musical, magical and id take or over the Elise and pretty much any map for enjoyment alone. A fully moddded crack is a better amp in all areas IMO


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## aqsw

aqsw said:


> I might not be too popular around here after this.
> Not really a Schiit fan. I had a Bifrost and Lyr. Could not get rid of them fast enough, after hearing some quality dacs and amps.
> Schiit just left a bad taste in my mouth (LOL). Maybe their new stuff is better, but I'm very happy with the dacs and amps I replaced them with.



My Bifrost was not a multi bit. That could be the major problem.


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## SnapperMusicFan

pctazhp said:


> I have not heard the Chord Mojo, but you would be paying for both a DAC and an amp. With the Elise you don't need the amp. I have had my Schiit Bimby for a year and half and I love it (most of that time running it with Elise). At $600 I think it is hard to beat. And many think the lower cost Mimby is just as good. My guess is either would be preferable to the Mojo. And the Bimby is upgradeable for future. I feel confident that either the Mimby or Bimby would be very compatible with a T1. I had a T1 for a month with my Bimby (and Elise) and that was a wonderful combination.
> 
> The Schiit DACs are all designed by Mike Moffat, who probably is as knowledgeable about DACs as anyone, and unlike a lot of current designers, was a very early digital pioneer, having designed the Theta 5 DAC which is legendary. So if I were you, I'd start with either Mimby or Bimby and then T1. I know I shouldn't say this, but I think you'd be crazy to do anything else!!!!


Have to say at work I'm running an 5k iMac into a iFI micro iUSB 3.0, Mojo - Line level, into the Elise - current tubes, Psvane 6SN7 * Mullard 6080, sound is delightful, layered & dynamic, super wide soundstage,
outputting to a pair of Yamaha HS7 studio monitors, never thought Brubeck's Take Five could sound so good.


----------



## angpsi

Langrex's selling matched pairs of GEC A1834 6AS7G at £400.00 plus shipping. Just sayin'


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## pctazhp

I have both the Valhalla 2 and Elise. I did an in depth comparison about a year ago, but now with inability to search threads, I can't find it. The Elise is in an entirely different league than the Valhalla 2. Don't know about the technical side, but I would take the Elise over V2 any day - just no comparison.

I would caution giving too much importance to someone who has only briefly tried Elise. With the right tubes (and there are many good combos) it is highly musical.

I first became interested in high end audio in the early 70s. By the time I sold my speaker-based system and in a different life (if not a different universe) I had over $80,000 invested in my system. I hold 2 strong beliefs which I consider fact. First, the law of diminishing returns is very real. Second, financial stress will always far outweigh any benefit one might gain from chasing the "best".

I believe that any Schiit MB DAC, Elise and a good headphone like T1 or HD800 can provide years of listening enjoyment. Don't have experience with HD600 or HD650.


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## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I have both the Valhalla 2 and Elise. I did an in depth comparison about a year ago, but now with inability to search threads, I can't find it. The Elise is in an entirely different league than the Valhalla 2. Don't know about the technical side, but I would take the Elise over V2 any day - just no comparison.
> 
> I would caution giving too much importance to someone who has only briefly tried Elise. With the right tubes (and there are many good combos) it is highly musical.
> 
> ...


 I'm a good Googler, or so it seems! https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-587#post_12438273


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## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> I'm a good Googler, or so it seems! https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-587#post_12438273



You are the MAN


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## UntilThen

GangGang said:


> The Vallhalla2 is technically a great amp but it has a grainy dry character and lacks balls. The Bottlehead Crack isn't as technically good as the more resolving Valhalla2 and I even found the Vali 2(Smoother than the Val2) to be more resolving than the stock Crack with SB but the Crack just slams like a Mofo.
> 
> There's just setting magical about the HD650 + BHC paring that makes resolution nor matter, it just slams, has amazing liquidity.
> 
> ...




Where gear is concerned, it's all subjective and you are entitled to your opinion. Not everyone will think that the HD650 is the best headphone out there nor everyone thinks that a fully modded crack is a better amp in all areas than Elise.


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## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> My Bifrost was not a multi bit. That could be the major problem.



I think so AQ


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## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Langrex's selling matched pairs of GEC A1834 6AS7G at £400.00 plus shipping. Just sayin'



Tempting. Must remain strong.


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## GangGang (May 16, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> I have both the Valhalla 2 and Elise. I did an in depth comparison about a year ago, but now with inability to search threads, I can't find it. The Elise is in an entirely different league than the Valhalla 2. Don't know about the technical side, but I would take the Elise over V2 any day - just no comparison.
> 
> I would caution giving too much importance to someone who has only briefly tried Elise. With the right tubes (and there are many good combos) it is highly musical.
> 
> ...


It's for sure a better amp than the Valhalla 2 and a next step in most aspects. I still think the Valhalla2 extracts plankton better than the Elise but in all other areas I'd give the Elise the nod. I really hope Schiit can fix the inherent dryness and make it slam like  the Crack with the Valhalla 3(or a successor)


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## pctazhp

GangGang said:


> It's for sure a better amp than the Valhalla 2 and a next step in most aspects. I still think the Valhalla2 extracts plankton better than the Elise but in all other areas I'd give the Elise the nod. I really hope Schiit can fix the inherent dryness and make it slam like  the Crack with the Valhalla 3(or a successor)



Agree about Schiit needing to fix the dryness and improve slam. Time will tell. I haven't used V2 much in over a year since Elise arrived, and yet I haven't quite gotten around to selling it. So I assume it will still be with me if and when it can be upgraded.


----------



## Oskari

Oskari said:


> My price point is lower, 50 or so, so I don't know much about the pricier stuff. I tend to prefer my Scotch peaty and smoky, which, I realize, is not for everybody. These I know will work for me: Talisker 10, Laphroaig 10, Caol Ila 12, Oban 14, Lagavulin 16. Talisker is the gold standard. The list includes Islay, Island and Highland whiskies. I would like to try some Campbeltown whiskies if I could get them easily.



Ledaig 10. This is a new one for me from the Isle of Mull. Fruitier than the above and not as smoky but veeery nice.


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## angpsi

Oskari said:


> Ledaig 10. This is a new one for me from the Isle of Mull. Fruitier than the above and not as smoky but veeery nice.


Tempted!


----------



## DavidA

Oskari said:


> My price point is lower, 50 or so, so I don't know much about the pricier stuff. I tend to prefer my Scotch peaty and smoky, which, I realize, is not for everybody. These I know will work for me: Talisker 10, Laphroaig 10, Caol Ila 12, Oban 14, Lagavulin 16. Talisker is the gold standard. The list includes Islay, Island and Highland whiskies. I would like to try some Campbeltown whiskies if I could get them easily.
> 
> I usually check the reviews on that site if I want to try something new.





Oskari said:


> Ledaig 10. This is a new one for me from the Isle of Mull. Fruitier than the above and not as smoky but veeery nice.



Wow, this is from way back, being isolated on an island I couldn't find any of those recommended back then but I did luck out when I traded my SR009/SRM007mk2 with a good friend for a few cases of wine and 12 bottles of scotch/whiskey, got some pretty good ones: Suntory Yamazaki 12 Single malt & Hibiki 21, Macallan Fine Oak 21, Glenlivet Archive 21, Auchentoshan 21, JW Blue, Glennfiddich 21, and Ballantine 30, 6 bottle were 75% or more full, but its what my good friend considered a good cross section for me to learn since it would be hard for me to get some of them these days and he can always drink them when he's visiting.  To be honest I think some of the better ones are wasted on me but having them for friends that really appreciate good Scotch/Whiskey makes the time spent together all the better.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

pctazhp said:


> I would caution giving too much importance to someone who has only briefly tried Elise. With the right tubes (and there are many good combos) it is highly musical.




I believe we are all entitled to an opinion, regardless of tube rolling experience. Some of us have been keen listeners of music for decades, built our own systems inc speakers, crossovers,
cabinets, and more in the past. This all counts as experience as does playing in the county youth orchestra as a kid. It's learning & training your ears over time.

I have not spent $80,000 dollars on a system, and don't intend to as I don't see the need, the Elise proves this, so does the Mojo & Hugo, the technology in these DAC's is not off the shelf
unlike a lot of DAC's & Chord Electronics would not put the ability to use them at line level if they where not intended to do so.

Opinions do matter, everyone has a different view & all are valid in helping others make a decision on the way their hard earned cash is spent...


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## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Langrex's selling matched pairs of GEC A1834 6AS7G at £400.00 plus shipping. Just sayin'



400 pounds is better spend towards a DAC or headphone. Just saying.


----------



## nickbojko

DecentLevi said:


> I take it you're drawing inspiration from the Euforia, which is basically the already upgraded Elise that also has silver wiring, upgraded caps, etc., right?


I like that they are doing parts upgrade and calling it euphoria but I don't care what input coupling cap you install it won't compete with straight occ wire sonics,by the way yank the load resistor on the grid of input tube.I have'nt used grid stoppers since the early 80's,I use ferrite beads as close as possible ti grid of tube without touching it,you slide it over your teflon insulation on the wire you are using.Also replace the 2 475 ohm grid stoppers going to the 6as7 tube with straight wire.The improvement will not be minor!!!!!


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## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Tempted!



A warning: the Ledaig 10 might be somewhat sweet for some tastes. It isn't sherried, though. I'm not a fan of sherry and I'm *not *a fan of sherried whisky.


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## Oskari

DavidA said:


> To be honest I think some of the better ones are wasted on me but having them for friends that really appreciate good Scotch/Whiskey makes the time spent together all the better.



My problem is that I'm 11,000 kilometers away.


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## Oskari

_Aiemmin_


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## mordy

Astell/Kern version of T1 for $550.00

https://www.adorama.com/akt1p.html?emailprice=t&utm_source=rflaid912761


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## SnapperMusicFan




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## angpsi

Wow, these tiny desk concerts are really cool! I was listening to this the other day...


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

angpsi said:


> Wow, these tiny desk concerts are really cool! I was listening to this the other day...



Lianne LaHavas is a great sound, went to see this guy in London two weeks ago, he was great live and on album.


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## HPLobster

Hello again my dear audio-friends 

It has been a while, I want to spare you the blah blah of rationales, but life had to be lived and as much as I missed you guys and the very fine conversations we conducted, I temporarily needed to prioritize time and focus on certain activities. 
Still -who am I trying to kid here- these "certain activities" did not completely exclude some glorious audio adventures  
I did some intense EL-tube-listening (the EL12spez, EL11, EL12n and EL3n) that has been a joyful endeavor indeed since I have been spared the sometimes mentioned humming problems completely! I will save my subjective findings for a future extensive post but SPOILER ALERT I won´t sell them off at ebay anytime soon


----------



## HPLobster

Catching up on the last few hundred posts made me smile quite a bit, as conversations frequently shifted to the DAC-topic, especially the Schiit Audio Multibits... The second major audio enterprise I concentrated on within the last month was upgrading my DAC, since I ultimately felt that my Mojo still was a little underwhelming for the Elise-HD800-chain. 

Well, I won´t go into detail too much here in the Elise-thread, but I had some great gear passing over my desk within the last few month, the RME Adi-2 pro, the Questyle cma 600i, some Audio-gd gear and some Schiit gear, I even had the opportunity to listen to the Mytek Brooklyn DAC (Hamburg is pretty gifted with Hifi-shops).
In the end however, I went with the Gungnir Multibit. Haha, it´s actually almost spooky to revisit my favorite Head-fi-thread after some time has passed, just to find that overall the topic has independently shifted in exactly this direction in the meantime  

The Gumby is just spectacular. And it is one of the biggest improvements I have ever experienced in audio gear, coming from the Chord Mojo. I wholeheartedly recommend it.

Certainly it is a fully-balanced DAC and therefore probably the Bimby is absolutely sufficient when pairing it with the Elise, but I have to admit that I also purchased the matching Mjolnir 2, because I liked the way my LCD-3 sounded when driven by the Mjolnir´s insane power and fully-balanced also.

Still, I won´t go balanced with my HD800 any time soon, the Elise-HD800 is just that good of a combination. A match made in heaven. And it definitely should be as widely known and appreciated as the Crack-HD650-combo is!


----------



## HPLobster

BTW I still kind of have difficulties delving into the Euforia-thread   I want to resist temptation further on and since I was the last mohican to purchase the Elise before Euforia appeared (at least out of the "mad hatters dirty dozen"  ),
I´m still being overly happy with my Elise and will probably skip Euforia and wait for the announced Feliks-Audio Eclipse to be released.


----------



## HPLobster

Alright, alright, I made that up, ok?  

Has anyone noticed anyway? I´m having a monolgue here... haha

further posts will follow within the next few minutes, brace yourselves...


----------



## HPLobster

oooooh, just as I got used to the new page-design, when.....so now we get to see the "likes" also, yes, like on the page-that-should-not-be-mentioned?



Oskari said:


> Ledaig 10. This is a new one for me from the Isle of Mull. Fruitier than the above and not as smoky but veeery nice.




Regarding whisky: I am more of a Lagavulin 16- guy, but as of right now I can really recommend the Highland Park "Einar" - edition. Similar to the 12y one, but less sweet and a tad more smokey, just about right


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## HPLobster

@UntilThen : Hey old friend  As I take a look at your signature, since obviously we now share the same taste in headphones, amps, DACs and -as I recall from pictures- even in the computer keyboard and mouse, why don´t you just tell me what you´re going to purchase next and spare me the next 6-8 weeks of research, will you please  

Congrats on purchasing the Yggy


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## HPLobster

Just was about to get tempted also trying the EF86 after reading some impressions here .... but wait.....another adapter..... again all the agony of waiting for the shipment for 2 month......no way, Jose......I´ll pass ......

(for now)


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## HPLobster




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## HPLobster (May 20, 2017)

Alright, so I just took a peek at the Euforia-thread and saw what kind of Schiit-storm is going down there....
Here is my answer:


----------



## Oskari

HPLobster said:


> Regarding whisky: I am more of a Lagavulin 16- guy, but as of right now I can really recommend the Highland Park "Einar" - edition. Similar to the 12y one, but less sweet and a tad more smokey, just about right



L16 is  very good indeed and the Einar sounds interesting.

For all you G&T fans out there, try _Napue Gin_ and thank me later.


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## UntilThen (May 20, 2017)

HPLobster said:


> Alright, so I just took a peek at the Euforia-thread and saw what kind of Schiit-storm is going down there....
> Here is my answer:



Get real Lobster. I can forgive you for being away for so long but how can you not know the schiit storm happening here and in Euforia's land?

Seriously if I had known you were seriously shopping for a dac we could have a serious talk and save ourselves some serious self doubts. As it turns out, I almost bought the Gumby till the very last day at Addicted To Audio - what an apt name !!!
The rest you know it if you read the latest Euforia's thread. I walk out with a Yggy and a HD800 and today is only the 2nd day !!!

Next purchase is some better RCA, USB, coaxial, AES/EBU, BNC, optical ...I don't know yet. Too many choices and depends on if I just buy a nice USB cable or a some wonderkind regen. Ah and a better power cord.

Congrats on the Gumby and Mjolnir 2. I had that in my sight because I read that it can drive HiFiman HE-6. Enjoy and do provide feedback as they burn in.

How long have you bought the Schiit gear?


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,





I have this unopened bottle from the 50s-60s but eBay won't let me sell it since I do not have a liqueur license. I have another bottle of the same that is  open and it is pretty good.


----------



## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> Get real Lobster. I can forgive you for being away for so long but how can you not know the schiit storm happening here and in Euforia's land?
> 
> Seriously if I had known you were seriously shopping for a dac we could have a serious talk and save ourselves some serious self doubts. As it turns out, I almost bought the Gumby till the very last day at Addicted To Audio - what an apt name !!!
> The rest you know it if you read the latest Euforia's thread. I walk out with a Yggy and a HD800 and today is only the 2nd day !!!
> ...




Haha, dude, that is so surreal! 
I actually DO recall mentioning a serious interest in high-end DACs back in the days when Tidal Masters -discussions dominated this thread. You were keen on going for the full-decoding stuff and I mentioned that I was considering the Mytek Brooklyn myself in this regard... It´s so insane that we both ended up buying Schiit Multibit gear completely independentely, what are the odds? I swear to god I did not have a single look inside those threads since I wrote something myself the last time. I kinda felt like being in detention, avoiding to look outside the window to see the children play in the sun   But now I´m back... and I have been owning the Schiit stuff for about 3 weeks now...

I took this whole DAC-thing reeeeeaaally serious, compared DAC-sections, Amp-sections, then both with my Mojo, than...aaah, it was crazy, I´m glad I´m done with this...I also read an awful lot of course, but ultimately I knew I could only trust my own ears so I actually compared over days and days, whenever I could spare some time.
Overall the competition got smoked by the Gumby. Period. With some DAC/Amps music indeed sounded like an excellent recording. With the Gungnir Multibit it sounded like an excellent _live_ recording. That´s essentially the main thing, it sounded like you were there... I could list dozens and dozens of specific examples and certain passages from certain songs, sometimes I would return the next day to them and yep, still would hear the same definitive difference. A key song was the mediterreanian sundance from the Live in San Francisco - Album...those guitars....they came to live...the impact of those strings on the instrument....amazing. 
The Mjolnir 2 is a fine amp also. As I mentioned, besides having a better source for the Elise, the scope was to go balanced with my LCD-3.

I did not have a chance to listen to the Yggy however. I just read at least a dozen times that many actual owners did not hear a significant sonic difference between it and the Gumby and some of them even downgraded to save money. I also read (on the site, that shoud not be named) about a few guys actually owning Yggys who did a very serious blind test to compare it with the Gumby and after all the majority was sure that they recognized their Yggy but actually had voted for the Gumby as the better sounding source. Howsoever, there also are different opinions regarding this of course, most are saying that the Gumby is supposed to sound more "analog", "vinyl-like" and the Yggy on the other hand is even a tad more resolving overall. But as I mentioned, I wasn´t able to compare them side by side, maybe you had the opportunity at Addicted To Audio?
For me, the choice overall was an easy one since you could buy TWO Gumbys for the price of an Yggy (German prices at least) and - considering form factor - the Yggy is supposed to be paired with the Ragnarok of course, but as I do not own passive speakers, this seemed like overkill in my situation.

Now for cables and the Regen: I also did my research on those devices and filtered all the positive and negative feedback they got and all-in-all: I won´t buy into them... Many claim the Regen actually DOES alter the sound, but I read that as in: it does ALTER the sound. Not sure I actually want that and right now the sound I´m getting is just so completely perfect with the state-of-the-art-clocking and everything.... hmmmm.....I still need to be convinced here...
As for cables I´m using Audioquest ones but nothing too fancy (Forest USB and Golden Gate RCA, ah and the Schiit PYST XLRs). I still don´t really believe in cables but it admittedly DID feel weird to plug in my 2€ printer-cable into a X.000€-audio-chain, so I bought the cables just for the sake of easing my mind...


----------



## UntilThen

Hello Lobster, that's a good feedback. Love talking to someone with a passion for music and of course that invariably steer towards gear that would accomplish that enjoyment very well.

I have heard the Yggy on 2 separate Meets. Once with Blue Hawaii and Stax sr007 and 009. 2nd time was with a Ragnorak. On both occasions, it's hard to listen intently because the music were different. Imagine 'Pink Panther' !!! Well on the 3rd occasion which was at Addicted To Audio was when I listen intently - it was again paired with Ragnorak and using a HD800. This time I have a selection of songs I'm more familiar with and it came across as very very good. I had no chance to try the Gumby because it's out of stock.

So like you I did a lot of reading. I don't think there were any negatives written about the Gumby and Yggy. On the contrary, it was overflowing with praises. With a name like Schiit, I was a bit sceptical at first .... honestly.  

Then LJ responded.  https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-153#post-13476103

I had known her since I was deciding on buying Elise. She also have used the Gumby for a year before switching to Yggy now. So her impressions are good enough for me. Gumby or Yggy I don't care. I'll toss a coin to decide and it was 'heads' which means Gumby. However on the day I went to the shop to purchase, Gumby was out of stock and since salesman Tom was going to do me the deal of a lifetime for the package of Yggy and HD800, that's how I got Yggy. Pretty good way to make a decision huh?

Nevertheless, it has to be the right decisions because Jeff Beck is sounding like he's on fire now as I type. If this gets any better I will have to call in sick tomorrow.


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## UntilThen (May 21, 2017)

As for the future, I have the Ragnorak and KEF LS50 in mind... to partner with my Definitive Technology 12" subwoofer.

So yeah head-fi sorted now. Next would be a compact stereo sound system incorporating the Yggy and Ragnorak.


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## HPLobster

Well, that is some great feedback also! Thank you for sharing the LJ-link, that was very informative and I probably would have missed that...

I can reassure you, that you definitely made the right choice three days ago  the HD 800 is an astonishingly fine headphone and although there is Focal now, Stax, even the HD 800S...no-one has _actually_ succeeded in dethroning those cans, similar to the 600s/650s. And you certainly made the right choice going with the Yggy first and Ragna later, if I would have been offered a great bundle price with ANY good headphone, I would have gone with the Yggy also, but in Germany Schiit gear is only available online through the Dutch retailer... Gumby is constantly out-of-stock there also, but I managed to talk the sales-manager into pulling the only one arriving in April out for me and mailing me before it went on the site 


The KefLS50 seems to sound and look great! I´m using a Sonos-System at home but only for "Elevator Jazz" at breakfast or to play Children´s music for my daughter mainly ... I love Sonos for being very uncomplicated and it supports Tidal also so I have every single song at my fingertips over the App, even when listening over speakers... 


Well, back on topic: Either way, my friend, I think both the Gungnir MB and the Yggdrasil are those kind of end-game devices that really finally make you forget about the equipment. I mean, it´s probably never over in our hobby but you buy one of those and are done with it and upgrading for many years to come imho...AND it´s probably the best overall high-end-value on the market right now...oh, _AND _you can send them in for an upgrade if something new appears! 

Cheers!


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## Oskari

mordy said:


> I have this unopened bottle from the 50s-60s but eBay won't let me sell it since I do not have a liqueur license. I have another bottle of the same that is  open and it is pretty good.


There's got to be an exchange for these.


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## HPLobster

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi mordy,

I found this on drinksplanet.com:

_Full bottles of Haig & Haig "pinch/Dimple in good label & stamp condition are worth the following:

1920s - (Spring Cap) $250-$300
1930s - (Spring Cap) $200-$250
1940s - (Spring Cap) $150-$200
1950s - (Spring Cap) $100-$150 
1960s - (Metal Twist Cap) $45-$65
1970s - (Plastic Twist Cap) $25-$35_

You probably should try and sell them in specialized forums/classifieds....?


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## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> Well, back on topic: Either way, my friend, I think both the Gungnir MB and the Yggdrasil are those kind of end-game devices that really finally make you forget about the equipment. I mean, it´s probably never over in our hobby but you buy one of those and are done with it and upgrading for many years to come imho...AND it´s probably the best overall high-end-value on the market right now...oh, _AND _you can send them in for an upgrade if something new appears!



Lobster, I am going to delete the word 'upgrade' from my vocabulary now. So pass me one of those special bottle of whisky while I drown my sorrows over the euphonic tunes that is assaulting my ears.


----------



## HPLobster




----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Can't seem to find a way of searching this thread, so I apologise if this has been asked before. Has anyone tried either 6F8G - Sylvania's or 6C8G - Ken-Rad round black plates in the Elise? From what I've found on line the characteristics of the Ken-Rad are strong bass and clarity, large soundstage & creamy sound. The Sylvania's are a little harder to find info on. Any info much appreciated.


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## Wreckgar7 (May 23, 2017)

HPLobster said:


> Haha, dude, that is so surreal!
> I actually DO recall mentioning a serious interest in high-end DACs back in the days when Tidal Masters -discussions dominated this thread. You were keen on going for the full-decoding stuff and I mentioned that I was considering the Mytek Brooklyn myself in this regard... It´s so insane that we both ended up buying Schiit Multibit gear completely independentely, what are the odds? I swear to god I did not have a single look inside those threads since I wrote something myself the last time. I kinda felt like being in detention, avoiding to look outside the window to see the children play in the sun   But now I´m back... and I have been owning the Schiit stuff for about 3 weeks now...
> 
> I took this whole DAC-thing reeeeeaaally serious, compared DAC-sections, Amp-sections, then both with my Mojo, than...aaah, it was crazy, I´m glad I´m done with this...I also read an awful lot of course, but ultimately I knew I could only trust my own ears so I actually compared over days and days, whenever I could spare some time.
> ...



Hi HpLobster, im glad you found the right DAC for yourself. I believe it was you who earlier said that you didnt like the chord mojo as a standalone DAC, if so can you ellaborate?

Im using the mojo right now with the Elise and thinking about purchasing the Bifrost Multibit since i rarely use the mojo as a portable device, did you get a chance to compare them side by side? Impressions?


----------



## HPLobster

Wreckgar7 said:


> Hi HpLobster, im glad you found the right DAC for yourself. I believe it was you who earlier said that you didnt like the chord mojo as a standalone DAC, if so can you ellaborate?
> 
> Im using the mojo right now with the Elise and thinking about purchasing the Bifrost Multibit since i rarely use the mojo as a portable device, did you get a chance to compare them side by side? Impressions?




Hi Wreckgar,

well, I guess it would be wrong to say I didn´t like the Mojo. Actually I did like it quite a bit. Initially I bought it because back then I was looking for a setup that would work equally good as a home _and _portable setup (and happily found it in the lovely PM-3-Mojo-combo). I compared it to almost every mid-tier to high-end DAP in existence (you can easily find my thread about this, it´s kind of popular here on head-fi), but in the end the Mojo actually convinced me the most. 
After I settled on my main desktop rig however, first of all having to disconnect and reconnect it every time was pretty annoying, also I kept thinking that after investing that much in headphone and amp, the Mojo might not be on par and holding it back. The good old "upgraditis"-thought that kept returning. Still, I was just objectively curious to see, how much further I could bring the sound quality. Honestly, I did not know what to expect. It might have turned out that upgrading up to a certain still affordable level might not bring that much of an improvement and would have lived a happy live with the Mojo after all. Well, you know the end of the story....

I still like the Mojo for what it is...as I still like (maybe even love) my PM-3 for what it is...but for serious listening with complete transparency and details retrieval, the Gumby is soooo much better. After switching back to Mojo after a while, the sound actually seemed murky at first, until your ears readjust. Mojo has much more emphasis on mids and vocals, the lows are pretty good but the highs are very smooth and almost thinned. The Gumby is....it´s all over the place....you can hear everything but nothing is emphasized, all those microdetails, especially on acoustical music... chimes, bass strings, trumpet-blows...a voices character and fine nuances of phonetics....you got to hear it to believe it. Honestly, it is that good. It´s a night and day difference. I´m not exaggerating. Of course, it´s still music that is projected on your eardrum, so you have to see this in a certain relation, but ultimately -within the boundaries of listening to headphones- those differences are spectacular. 
I cannot stress out enough, that on the other hand the Gumby managed to not sound analytical at all! I listened to the ADI-2 Pro that gets raving reviews all everywhere, it is an amazing piece of gear, but all those details and the reproduction still sounded...yeah...._artificial _.....like a very, very good recording as I said somewhere before. The Gungnir instead managed to make it sound like something organic, like live music... 

I don´t know about the Bimby, I haven´t heard one, but I would strongly suggest to try one out for yourself, maybe even a Modi MB and/or some other comparable item. Only trust your own ears.


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## HPLobster (May 23, 2017)

valid message


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## UntilThen

Lobster, I agree with you. If you didn't like the Mojo, it means you have lost your mojo.

I haven't heard the Mojo (ok I lied.. I heard it for half a song at a meet and couldn't remember anymore) or Gumby, but I can tell you the Yggy is a multi function home appliance and will keep you up late every night listening to music. You will be happy that you have build up a library of flac files - yes even the humble 16/44.1 format.... because they will sound so much better now !!!


----------



## Wreckgar7

HPLobster said:


> Hi Wreckgar,
> 
> well, I guess it would be wrong to say I didn´t like the Mojo. Actually I did like it quite a bit. Initially I bought it because back then I was looking for a setup that would work equally good as a home _and _portable setup (and happily found it in the lovely PM-3-Mojo-combo). I compared it to almost every mid-tier to high-end DAP in existence (you can easily find my thread about this, it´s kind of popular here on head-fi), but in the end the Mojo actually convinced me the most.
> After I settled on my main desktop rig however, first of all having to disconnect and reconnect it every time was pretty annoying, also I kept thinking that after investing that much in headphone and amp, the Mojo might not be on par and holding it back. The good old "upgraditis"-thought that kept returning. Still, I was just objectively curious to see, how much further I could bring the sound quality. Honestly, I did not know what to expect. It might have turned out that upgrading up to a certain still affordable level might not bring that much of an improvement and would have lived a happy live with the Mojo after all. Well, you know the end of the story....
> ...



Thank you so much for your input, the Gumby does indeed seem very nice through every review, but a bit out of my price range. I agree that the mojo is incredible as a dac/amp portable device, but i cant seem to wonder how it compares to other DACS, and as i live up in northern sweden it is very hard to try other options, not the least Schiit products :/ ofcourse i could order a Bifrost MB and if im not happy with the result, send it back but it seems like to much work  And i noticed that my PLUG-type is out of stock at Schiit-EU for the Bifrost.  I am however going to New York in october, does anyone know if there is a shop i could try Schiit products?
Btw, i might have a chance to try the Focal Elear in a few days, hopefully with the mojo so i can compare it with my modded HD650


----------



## mordy

Being on these threads you get a one track mind - this headline caught my attention:

*4 Person Tube*

What could that be? 





http://dealwiki.net/bestway-coolerz...il&_ke=bW9yZHk2MTNAYW9sLmNvbQ==&utm_source=DW

Looks a little tight fitting.....


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## HPLobster

Wreckgar7 said:


> i live up in northern sweden it is very hard to try other options, not the least Schiit products :/ ofcourse i could order a Bifrost MB and if im not happy with the result, send it back but it seems like to much work




Schiit-europe´s customer service is absolutely recommendable. You can go ahead and order your stuff there without concerns and sending the gear back within 14 days is no problem at all if you treat it carefully (well, goes without saying ) Schiit Audio - gear is hard to find in Germany also, but sure, if you already have planned a trip to New York, you certainly should be able to find a good store that has Schiit gear on display...


----------



## UntilThen

@HPLobster  may I recommend you a pair of GEC 6080. Only 4 left. Make an offer to the seller and you're good. See my posts on Euforia's thread. I've reasons to believe these are much better than Mullard 6080. I have just bought 2.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6080-BR...711084?hash=item2a7ff9e96c:g:fE8AAOSwRUhY9qKY


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## UntilThen

At the other forum that is not to be named, Elise is one of the tube amps recommended for HD800. It is the wettest sounding of all the tube amps named there - that's what was stated.

I don't need others impressions to convince me. To my ears, HD800 sounds just lovely with Elise and Euforia. So much so there's no need to mod the stock HD800. On the same token, T1 and modified HD650 sounds very good on these 2 Feliks Audio amps too. These are the 3 headphones in my inventory. I don't need any more headphones.


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## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> @HPLobster  may I recommend you a pair of GEC 6080. Only 4 left. Make an offer to the seller and you're good. See my posts on Euforia's thread. I've reasons to believe these are much better than Mullard 6080. I have just bought 2.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6080-BR...711084?hash=item2a7ff9e96c:g:fE8AAOSwRUhY9qKY



Argh! I was too late  they are all gone 
Well, thanks for the hint anyway


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## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> Argh! I was too late  they are all gone
> Well, thanks for the hint anyway



Oh wow indeed they are all gone. They must have seen my message here.


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## HPLobster

You really made me curious, I'll definitely keep an eye out for them now....

Meanwhile I'm enjoying the beautiful weather, the temperature is 28 °C... I know, for someone living in Australia this may not mean anything, but in Hamburg we probably get this kind of sun only twice a year or so


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## UntilThen

It's Autumn here now. Temp hovers around 25C. Autumn scenery is incredible. My favourite season. There's a melancholy feel. 

Instead of enjoying the outdoors, I'm listening to music on my head-fi, like a maniac. The sound is too good. I can't stop.


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## HPLobster (May 27, 2017)

Autumn..... melancholy.....this beautiful song comes to my mind...


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## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> Autumn..... melancholy.....this beautiful song comes to my mind...



Thanks Lobster. Piano sounds great from Yggy. This package now sounds sparkling. No melancholy is going to get me down. It's a nice kind of sadness.


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## UntilThen

Autumn leaves is covered by many artists but I'll play you Cannonball Aderley and Miles Davis's version.


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## HPLobster (May 27, 2017)

Nice, very nice.... I dare say that there are many recordings from Miles that I don´t like... This one I love 

This kind of musical melancholy doesn´t get me down either, I´m in a great mood actually , but those pieces still get to move me every single time... like you said: nice kind of sadness...


Here is another one that´s in the spirit of Autumn in Seattle (sorry, no video available this time):

*"To A.P. Kern" (Track 4) *from this wonderful collaboration: https://listen.tidal.com/album/70302708


Listening to Philips Miniwatt EL3N driving my Valvo/Mullard 6080s - my favourite tube-pairing for _Jazz_ so far.... just the perfect recipe for musical density, warmth and engagement


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## UntilThen

You have good taste in music. Listening on Tidal HiFi is much better than Youtube. Love 'To A.P. Kern' whoever he is. 

EL3N and Mullard 6080 would sound lovely on Gumby and HD800.


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## Oskari

As much as I love the version of _Autumn Leaves_ above, do you really need to remind me about the forthcoming autumn when the winter has barely gone, the spring was late, and the summer is not quite here yet? I hope you get lots of snow storms! 

Just kidding. Mostly.


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## HPLobster

I also don´t know anything about A.P. Kern, but I´m sure he deserved this song 

Yes exactly, Gumby-->EL3N/6080-->HD800. 
The Elise(/Euforia)+HD800 - fusion in general is simply the best way to listen to Jazz or classical music there is IMHO. 
And a nice Multibit-DAC like Gumby or Yggy just ennobles it even further...  


And with these words I´ll say "Goodnight!" for now, while still enjoying the remaining bars of this wonderful Bolero - arrangement:


*Track 10: JOOLERO by Joo Kraus   *https://listen.tidal.com/album/66083345


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## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> As much as I love the version of _Autumn Leaves_ above, do you really need to remind me about the forthcoming autumn when the winter has barely gone, the spring was late, and the summer is not quite here yet? I hope you get lots of snow storms!
> 
> Just kidding. Mostly.



Let me change your seasons with this blues. I want to get a hi-rez version of this.


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## thasneakershop

UntilThen said:


> Let me change your seasons with this blues. I want to get a hi-rez version of this.



got anymore ;-p


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## UntilThen

thasneakershop said:


> got anymore ;-p



Careful what you wish for. This will take you to a place where you will not return.... and you need Yggy plus Euforia (ok this is Elise thread - so Elise) and HD800.

Btw Lukasz, where is my Elise ???


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## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Let me change your seasons with this blues. I want to get a hi-rez version of this.



That is not bad! Who are these guys?

Btw, this 'snowflake'  is completely wrong. Snowflakes are always hexagonal.


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## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> That is not bad! Who are these guys?
> 
> Btw, this 'snowflake'  is completely wrong. Snowflakes are always hexagonal.



I have no idea but since you ask, I have to look it up. Snowy White does have some credentials, having played with Pink Floyd as a backing guitarist. Check it out on good 'ole Wikipedia. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_White


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## UntilThen

This one's good too. Bird of Paradise.


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## Oskari

Indeed. Thanks.


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## angpsi

Hi guys,

The Mullard 6080 have stayed on my system since I got them and they've given me long hours of enjoyment primarily with jazz and secondly with classical. They seem to be less resolving—or rather setting the minor details in the back, as I have found with some tracks in Beastie Boys' Paul's Boutique, which I already knew how they sounded through my surgical Etymotic Hf2—, but wonderfully warmish in the mids.

However, I suddenly I got an itch to get me a pair of Sylvania 6sn7wgt from Langrex. Do you guys have any experience with them? If I recall correctly @pctazhp has mentioned having a pair. Honestly it's a gut feeling, partly because I feel like exploring the NOS driver variety sound signature for the Elise instead of the Psvane. Also, should I build my knowledge base gradually by getting me some entry-level $ GTBs and then move on to the more expensive variants, or should I just churn out the big $ right away?

I know it's a big debate, but I'm open to suggestions!


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## HPLobster

Hi Angpsi 

Back in March (a month that later on should be known as the "Dark Age Of Waiting For The EL-Adapters") I was pretty interested in getting me a pair of Sylvania 6SN7 also. Before actually taking initiative and buying them, my adapters finally arrived via carrier pigeon and my plans regarding Sylvanias petered out.
But I did not forget about them  Next to the GEC 6080 UT suggested (well and next to some GEC 6AS7G and Tungsol 5998 - if I happen to stumble upon them somewhere and not having to sell my cat to buy them) they are as of now the only tubes I´m interested in adding to my Elise-line-up.


I got a few good responses back then concerning the difference between the brown base and black base, if you (or others) are interested...

--> post 7756 and following (page 518)


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## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> I got a few good responses back then concerning the difference between the brown base and black base, if you (or others) are interested...
> 
> --> post 7756 and following (page 518)



I followed this trail and I came across the legendary lyrics to the song...

'Hello Lobster, my old friend. I've come to talk to you again...'

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...ost-for-summary.813488/page-518#post-13364998

Ok.. Lobster and @angpsi  you need to be fast on this. There's only 2 left of these gold nuggets and they are NOS.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-6S...576896?hash=item25d7660340:g:Sf8AAOSwblZZJZvp

It's useful to get Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Sylvania 6sn7wgt as well. While you're at it, don't forget the Tung Sol 6sn7gtb black bakelite base 1960s tubes as well. They are not expensive but sound very good.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> Elise is indeed a marvellous tube amp. I've always said that it will hold it's place in a setup comprising HD800, T1 and now as you eluded to, the Audeze LC3f. Add in a nice DAC and you have a headfi system you can trully enjoy and be proud of.



Lobster, see what I told you then. That was March 23rd 2017 and now you did have a nice DAC and it's all set and just listening to music now.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I know it's a big debate, but I'm open to suggestions!



apsi, I don't like debates but I have a suggestion for you. Buy Yggy and HD800 and enjoy your classical in the comfort of your home with Elise. Or even Gumby.


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## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> However, I suddenly I got an itch to get me a pair of Sylvania 6sn7wgt from Langrex. Do you guys have any experience with them? If I recall correctly @pctazhp has mentioned having a pair. Honestly it's a gut feeling, partly because I feel like exploring the NOS driver variety sound signature for the Elise instead of the Psvane. Also, should I build my knowledge base gradually by getting me some entry-level $ GTBs and then move on to the more expensive variants, or should I just churn out the big $ right away?



I didn't get my pair from Langrex, but I really like my Sylvania 6SN7-wtg. Probably about the same as my more expensive Sylvania 6SN7Ws. Personally I recommend getting a pair of either Sylvania and a pair of GEC6080s and be done with it. But, then again, I'm just a poor conductor. If anyone requests I re-tell that joke for the umpteenth time I will, but you will probably be put on some kind of a watch list.

And please understand that @UntilThen's answer to every problem in the world is to buy a Yiggy. I think he supplies Schiit with Magic Yiggy Dust from a mine he owns in the Outback.


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## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> And please understand that @UntilThen's answer to every problem in the world is to buy a Yiggy. I think he supplies Schiit with Magic Yiggy Dust from a mine he owns in the Outback.



It's the best thing that happen to me since I join head-fi. Elise made me chalk up 5000 posts. Yggy will take me to the 20000 mark.... then they will boot me out. 

This is now good speakers sound in my head and Yggy is only 8 days 7 hours 34 minutes and 12 seconds since powering up.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> It's the best thing that happen to me since I join head-fi. Elise made me chalk up 5000 posts. Yggy will take me to the 20000 mark.... then they will boot me out.
> 
> This is now good speakers sound in my head and Yggy is only 8 days 7 hours 34 minutes and 12 seconds since powering up.



There was a story this past week about a lady in San Diego who wanted to marry a train station. It is sure fortunate you are already married!!!


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## UntilThen (May 28, 2017)

angpsi said:


> or should I just churn out the big $ right away?



Yes. Just churn it out and buy Yggy.


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## HPLobster (May 28, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> I followed this trail and I came across the legendary lyrics to the song...
> 
> 
> Ok.. Lobster and @angpsi  you need to be fast on this. There's only 2 left of these gold nuggets and they are NOS.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-6S...576896?hash=item25d7660340:g:Sf8AAOSwblZZJZvp



Damn it,,,,too late once again  Well, thank you anyway for calling my attention....
Either we need to install a Down Under-Hamburg-hotline or I´ll have to copy the sentence above to the clipboard


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## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> Damn it,,,,too late once again  Well, thank you anyway for calling my attention....
> Either we need to install a Down Under-Hamburg-hotline or I´ll have to copy the sentence above to the clipboard



Omg it's gone. Next time I'll PM you.


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## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> Lobster, see what I told you then. That was March 23rd 2017 and now you did have a nice DAC and it's all set and just listening to music now.




People have been accused of witchcraft for less, you do realize that?!  So please show us (=my wallet and me) some mercy and be careful with your prophecies 

Changing the subject (kind of)... I actually just finished reading this last month:

 

A great, amusing and entirely recommendable book and on top of that you get to read about Yggy in each chapter  What more could your heart desire?


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## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Ok.. Lobster and @angpsi  you need to be fast on this. There's only 2 left of these gold nuggets and they are NOS.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-6S...576896?hash=item25d7660340:g:Sf8AAOSwblZZJZvp


UT, I had them noticed even before you mentioned them but they were instantly taken once you did! Someone's lurking in your posts and preying on our loot! Gotta be quicker than that, I guess..,


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## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> It's useful to get Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top and Sylvania 6sn7wgt as well. While you're at it, don't forget the Tung Sol 6sn7gtb black bakelite base 1960s tubes as well. They are not expensive but sound very good.


 What about vt-231?


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## angpsi

HPLobster said:


> People have been accused of witchcraft for less, you do realize that?!  So please show us (=my wallet and me) some mercy and be careful with your prophecies
> 
> Changing the subject (kind of)... I actually just finished reading this last month:
> 
> ...


Lobster I liked you from day one, but now you got my respect!


----------



## UntilThen (May 29, 2017)

angpsi said:


> UT, I had them noticed even before you mentioned them but they were instantly taken once you did! Someone's lurking in your posts and preying on our loot! Gotta be quicker than that, I guess..,



No worries next time I'll recommend you to buy light bulbs. 

My GEC 6080 has just been dispatch from New Zealand.

Where pricing and sonic goodness for Sylvania 6sn7 is concerned, I will list them in the order of their desirabilities

6sn7w
6sn7gt vt231 bad boys
6sn7wgt
6sn7gta
6sn7gtb

There might be some odd variance but these are the mainstream.


----------



## UntilThen

Elise getting some love. 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-new-hd800-impressions-thread.650510/page-1730#post-13517166


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Just got a hold of a pair of Marconi 6080's has anyone else tried these?


----------



## mordy

Hi SMF,

I have not heard them, but my impression is that they were made by GEC.


----------



## Oskari

Marconi UK, Marconi Canada, … ?

In short, add a photo to the question.


----------



## mordy

This one is the GEC version:







And this one I do not know - maybe RCA?


----------



## HPLobster

angpsi said:


> Lobster I liked you from day one, but now you got my respect!



Haha, I´m flattered, but how come? Are you a Gaiman-connaisseur? Are you into Norse Mythology? Or is it just the because I pulled the honorable UT´s leg?


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

The second photo, are the ones I was looking at. They are Marconi Canada - Vancouver. What makes you think they are RCA?


----------



## angpsi

HPLobster said:


> Haha, I´m flattered, but how come? Are you a Gaiman-connaisseur? Are you into Norse Mythology? Or is it just the because I pulled the honorable UT´s leg?


It was Gaiman, albeit I wouldn't call me a connoisseur... Currently (but slowly) going through this:


----------



## angpsi

...also a big Douglas Adams fan!


----------



## Oskari (May 29, 2017)

SnapperMusicFan said:


> The second photo, are the ones I was looking at. They are Marconi Canada - Vancouver. What makes you think they are RCA?



Are you talking about this auction?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NEW-NOS-M...6A-6AS7GA-5998-Could-be-Matched-/232352737560
They might be Tung-Sols. Don't pay that much for them.

Please explain "Vancouver".


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Don't pay that much for them.



SMF, enjoy your tubes. 'Don't pay too much for them' applies to all tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Nothing wrong with RCA 6080. Same magic, same euphoria, just different icing. Got mine from Langrex and it's cheap.


----------



## mordy

SnapperMusicFan said:


> The second photo, are the ones I was looking at. They are Marconi Canada - Vancouver. What makes you think they are RCA?


Hi SMF,

Most of the 6080 tubes were US made with a few coming from Europe. Although Marconi is a very old Canadian company they were mainly owned by a British company from the early 50's, and from that period on it appears to me that many of the Marconi tubes were re-branded.
As always with vacuum tubes, it is difficult to find information and I may be wrong, but this is my impression nevertheless.
You could go through eBay listings of Tung Sol  (or RCA 6080 tubes, but I would defer to Oskari)  and see if you can find some that look identical to the ones offered.


----------



## HPLobster

angpsi said:


> It was Gaiman, albeit I wouldn't call me a connoisseur... Currently (but slowly) going through this:




Ah, I see  I consider myself a Gaiman-aficionado, definitely makes my top ten - list of modern writers!
"Good Omens" is one of his few works I haven´t read, simply because I´m not that familiar with the Discworld....
As I am also an avid reader of good graphic novels: His "Sandman" - book series is sublime. It´s one of those books you´ll never forget your entire life...


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Most of the 6080 tubes were US made with a few coming from Europe.


Indeed. I don't think we've seen a Canadian-made 6080 yet.


mordy said:


> ... many of the Marconi tubes were re-branded.


Canadian Marconi and Canadian GE had a joint venture (RVC) that made tubes in Toronto but many tubes were sourced from the US, and elsewhere towards the end of the tube era.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

mordy said:


> Hi SMF,
> 
> Most of the 6080 tubes were US made with a few coming from Europe. Although Marconi is a very old Canadian company they were mainly owned by a British company from the early 50's, and from that period on it appears to me that many of the Marconi tubes were re-branded.
> As always with vacuum tubes, it is difficult to find information and I may be wrong, but this is my impression nevertheless.
> You could go through eBay listings of Tung Sol  (or RCA 6080 tubes, but I would defer to Oskari)  and see if you can find some that look identical to the ones offered.





Oskari said:


> Indeed. I don't think we've seen a Canadian-made 6080 yet.
> 
> Canadian Marconi and Canadian GE had a joint venture (RVC) that made tubes in Toronto but many tubes were sourced from the US, and elsewhere towards the end of the tube era.



Many thanks for your feedback, in the UK Marconi, was based in Chelmsford & had strong links with GEC, (the site is now owned by E2V). So, it all depends on the age of the tube as to where it was made? Is there many way of telling from the tube, as it may have a country of 
origin printed on it? UT, has said that GEC 6080 are very good tubes & everywhere I look the price reflects this, along with Bendix graphite plate tubes that are almost impossible to find. I was looking at the Marconi tubes knowing of their links to GEC, and may be a more cost effective alternative.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Oskari said:


> Are you talking about this auction?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NEW-NOS-M...6A-6AS7GA-5998-Could-be-Matched-/232352737560
> They might be Tung-Sols. Don't pay that much for them.
> ...


Thanks Oskari, Should have said Vermont, don't know why I put Vancouver. 



I'll have to see if they're any good when they arrive.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

UntilThen said:


> Nothing wrong with RCA 6080. Same magic, same euphoria, just different icing. Got mine from Langrex and it's cheap.



Hi UT, how would you say GEC 6080's compare to the Mullards, how is the sound different? I have the Mullards, and would be very interested to know. Have just bitten the bullet my Bifrost Multibit, in cool black arrives today...... It's not a Yiggy - a bit out of my price range... Just need my Aeons to arrive this week...
the reports of how they sound with tube amps are looking good.


----------



## UntilThen

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Hi UT, how would you say GEC 6080's compare to the Mullards, how is the sound different? I have the Mullards, and would be very interested to know. Have just bitten the bullet my Bifrost Multibit, in cool black arrives today...... It's not a Yiggy - a bit out of my price range... Just need my Aeons to arrive this week...
> the reports of how they sound with tube amps are looking good.



There is no comparison between GEC 6080 and Mullard 6080 because my GEC 6080 hasn't arrived. 

I'll let you know when it does arrive and I have a good listen.

Congrats on the black Bifrost Multibit. You should be very happy with it. Just ask @pctazhp.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Congrats on the black Bifrost Multibit. You should be very happy with it. Just ask @pctazhp.



Sorry. My Bimby is silver. I can be of no help.


----------



## pctazhp

Friend of mine just posted this on Facebook. It is truly a transcendental, spiritual experience, even on my Silver Bimby:


----------



## hypnos1

Hi pct...had clicked 'Like' and 'Reply' came up...still more work to be done here, methinks lol!!

However, am glad actually, 'cos I want to say thanks for reminding me of this first rate guitarist - must look out for more of his performances (as opposed to my usual predilection for John Williams; Julian Bream, or Segovia of course!).


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

UntilThen said:


> There is no comparison between GEC 6080 and Mullard 6080 because my GEC 6080 hasn't arrived.
> 
> I'll let you know when it does arrive and I have a good listen.
> 
> Congrats on the black Bifrost Multibit. You should be very happy with it. Just ask @pctazhp.



Tried a pair of these from the forties, they sound great for jazz and blues and great with piano..... great with the new Black Bimby, have them in with the Mullards the separation between instruments is delightful.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122310636605?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


----------



## Oskari

SnapperMusicFan said:


> So, it all depends on the age of the tube as to where it was made?


Yes and no. Generally speaking, Japanese, Russian, East German, etc., tubes became more common when Western manufacturers were getting out of the business.


SnapperMusicFan said:


> Is there many way of telling from the tube, as it may have a country of origin printed on it?


Tubes often have CoO markings, but, like printed labels in general, those aren't always reliable. Codes and construction are more reliable.


----------



## angpsi

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Tried a pair of these from the forties, they sound great for jazz and blues and great with piano..... great with the new Black Bimby, have them in with the Mullards the separation between instruments is delightful.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122310636605?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


Tried them on the Elise? (Obviously) with adapters, right? Are these 6sn7 substitutes? What about 6sl7? 

Looks like I've got some reading to do; however, I'd be obliged if you gave me a quick crash course.


----------



## UntilThen

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Tried a pair of these from the forties, they sound great for jazz and blues and great with piano..... great with the new Black Bimby, have them in with the Mullards the separation between instruments is delightful.



Good to hear. Perhaps try the 6f8g as it's one of FA's recommended drivers. It's fun to experiment with tubes but I've discovered that if you get a good DAC, you become less particular of the tubes you use. At the expense of repeating, I find that Yggy and HD800 have been the most significant changes to my setup, particularly Yggy. No doubt, you are experiencing that yourself with Bimby.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

UntilThen said:


> Good to hear. Perhaps try the 6f8g as it's one of FA's recommended drivers. It's fun to experiment with tubes but I've discovered that if you get a good DAC, you become less particular of the tubes you use. At the expense of repeating, I find that Yggy and HD800 have been the most significant changes to my setup, particularly Yggy. No doubt, you are experiencing that yourself with Bimby.


That's interesting, I had the psvanes in first with the Mullards behind with the Bimby to start with, tried tha 6c8g's and it opened the whole thing up, was a bit suprised, as I replaced the rear tobes with GE's at the same time, somehow had the impression from this thred that they are not that great, they sound fab with the 6c8g's. Have a pair of Sylvania 6f8g's, don't rate them that much, too much mid and not a lot else. Looking forward to trying my Marconi 6080's when they materialise. )


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

SnapperMusicFan said:


> That's interesting, I had the psvanes in first with the Mullards behind with the Bimby to start with, tried tha 6c8g's and it opened the whole thing up, was a bit suprised, as I replaced the rear tobes with GE's at the same time, somehow had the impression from this thred that they are not that great, they sound fab with the 6c8g's. Have a pair of Sylvania 6f8g's, don't rate them that much, too much mid and not a lot else. Looking forward to trying my Marconi 6080's when they materialise. )


Wow how many typo's, must give up trying to write replies on my phone, too smaller screen. The are the 6f8g's are 1950's stock bought on eBay from the states and played in the same adapters as the 6c8g's, I thought the psvane's where the best I could get for this amp sound wise, having tried some RCA's and Raytheon's, but these tubes Ken-rad 6c8g's take it to another level, Clapton's Unplugged album with the acoustic all the way through sounds amazing, Saint Saens Calme des nuits - just voices, I'm in the room........ If the amp sounds this good with these tubes......   Mmmmm need to look further. UT, would be very interested to hear the results of your GEC 6080 purchase, when you've had a listen. Need my Aeon's, seem to be taking an age to get here, sure they'll be worth the wait. Are any of you guys going to Canjam London?


----------



## UntilThen

I think @hypnos1 is going to Canjam London.  It's too far for me. 

What's the Aeon?


----------



## DavidA

UntilThen said:


> I think @hypnos1 is going to Canjam London.  It's too far for me.
> 
> What's the Aeon?



new headphone from Mr Speakers, cheaper version of Ether C.


----------



## UntilThen

DavidA said:


> new headphone from Mr Speakers, cheaper version of Ether C.



Thanks David. I can't keep up with all the new headphones. Heard the Ether C with Hugo TT at the meet and it's articulate and revealing.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

angpsi said:


> Tried them on the Elise? (Obviously) with adapters, right? Are these 6sn7 substitutes? What about 6sl7?
> 
> Looks like I've got some reading to do; however, I'd be obliged if you gave me a quick crash course.


 Hi Angpsi,

I found this thread, its about bottlheads, but does give more info about 6C8G...

http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3522.0


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Hi Angpsi,
> 
> I found this thread, its about bottlheads, but does give more info about 6C8G...
> 
> http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3522.0



There's this thread too.....

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/91252-6f8gs-any-good.html


----------



## DavidA

UntilThen said:


> Thanks David. I can't keep up with all the new headphones. Heard the Ether C with Hugo TT at the meet and it's articulate and revealing.



Hi UT, the few times I've heard the Ether C it didn't impress me much, a little dry and without any sparkle in the highs to me, and 2 of the owners after hearing my Ypsilon build at the same time also went out and built their own, one even sold her Ether C.  Funny you mention the Hugo since both of the owners of the Ether C had them, not the TT but the regular Hugo which I loved with the HD800 and HE560 while my friend in Japan who has both thinks they both sound the same but prefers the regular Hugo since its portable and he travels a lot, he also has the WA8 but likes the Hugo better.  He's also the one who let me use his Liquid Glass (+ a few sets of tubes) for a few months but since I'm getting older and my hearing will only get worse I decided to spend the money on a lot of wine


----------



## UntilThen

David, the Hugo 2 has started shipping. You should sell your wine and buy one.


----------



## DavidA

No way I'm selling the wine but I've been considering the Hugo2, but I'm also still considering a few other DACs amps at the moment.


----------



## UntilThen

DavidA said:


> No way I'm selling the wine but I've been considering the Hugo2, but I'm also still considering a few other DACs amps at the moment.



Consider Yggdrasil also. I'm a fan now.


----------



## DavidA

Heard a Yggy a while ago but liked the Teac UD-503, MHDT Pagoda and Metrum Musette better when I compared them at my friends house last year, its just a preference and not that any are better than the others


----------



## UntilThen

No doubt. The industry is growing and innovating to give customers more choices. It would be boring if everyone has the same setup.


----------



## Wreckgar7

Hey guys, i was wondering if i am able to use CV181/ECC32 tubes in the elise? And if anyone could confirm these two tubes as the real deal, theyre listed as Mullards.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Wreckgar7 said:


> Hey guys, i was wondering if i am able to use CV181/ECC32 tubes in the elise? And if anyone could confirm these two tubes as the real deal, theyre listed as Mullards.



Hi Wreckgar,

Here's the last page of the Elise manual.... CV181 is on the list..., can't confirm they're Mullards.


----------



## Oskari

Wreckgar7 said:


> And if anyone could confirm these two tubes as the real deal, theyre listed as Mullards.


They are.


----------



## Wreckgar7

Thanks a lot for the info, not sure ill get them but good to know  I rolled with EL12 and EL12ST for a long while but swapped to Tung Sol 5998 and EL11, really great tone, love it. 
I had a chance to try the Focal Elear together with a Chord mojo last week, and theyre quite something, but still i got to say my modded hd650 is still holding up so might not be worth the extra money 

Btw, @UntilThen  have you received your Elise back from Feliks yet? Love to hear some A/B testing with the Euforia


----------



## angpsi (Jun 1, 2017)

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Hi Angpsi,
> 
> I found this thread, its about bottlheads, but does give more info about 6C8G...
> 
> http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3522.0


Hi Snapper, thanks for the info! Will look into it although I'm not sure about diving in for another adventure in adapters (long history here with the EL12spez)... Somewhat pricey, too!

Got me a pair of "early version Tung-Sol 6ns7gt"  instead. Plus, my 6sn7wgt JAN Sylvania from Langrex are on their way from the UK! Any ideas on what to expect out of these? Question addressed to all of the wonderful and experienced crowd here in this thread!


----------



## UntilThen

Wreckgar7 said:


> Thanks a lot for the info, not sure ill get them but good to know  I rolled with EL12 and EL12ST for a long while but swapped to Tung Sol 5998 and EL11, really great tone, love it.
> I had a chance to try the Focal Elear together with a Chord mojo last week, and theyre quite something, but still i got to say my modded hd650 is still holding up so might not be worth the extra money
> 
> Btw, @UntilThen  have you received your Elise back from Feliks yet? Love to hear some A/B testing with the Euforia



Wrecky, modded HD650 is very good indeed. I just love the HD800 more now and after 12 days it's no longer new toy syndrome. 

Agree that the TS 5998 are very good also. One of my favourite power tubes. I shall have to do a review of gec 6080, bendix 6080wb and ts 5998 when the former arrives.

Elise is not back yet. I too am anxious to get it back so I can do a proper comparison between a 're-new' Elise and Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Got me a pair of "early version Tung-Sol 6ns7gt" instead. Plus, my 6sn7wgt JAN Sylvania from Langrex are on their way from the UK! Any ideas on what to expect out of these? Question addressed to all of the wonderful and experienced crowd here in this thread!



On first glance, I thought the TS 6sn7gt were the same as my TS 6sn7gtb 1960s versions but they are not. The mica is rectangular instead of round with sharks teeth. Those could be good. Let us know how they sound.

I wouldn't know what your expectations are of these tubes but they are a nice additions to your drivers collection.


----------



## UntilThen

Wreckgar7 said:


> Hey guys, i was wondering if i am able to use CV181/ECC32 tubes in the elise? And if anyone could confirm these two tubes as the real deal, theyre listed as Mullards.



Expensive tubes and highly regarded. I have not heard one. I only have the ECC31 which require an adapter and not exactly a drop in of 6sn7 but the ECC32 is.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Plus, my 6sn7wgt JAN Sylvania from Langrex are on their way from the UK! Any ideas on what to expect out of these?



Expect the sun, moon, sky and stars. I love my pair.


----------



## HPLobster

pctazhp said:


> Expect the sun, moon, sky and stars. I love my pair.



hmmm.... I´m actually getting more and more tempted to finally try them also .... 

@angpsi looking forward to read about what you think of these!


You both are talking about the brown-based ones right? Sorry, I keep asking this because some pages have confused me with wrong nomenclature....


----------



## pctazhp

HPLobster said:


> You both are talking about the brown-based ones right? Sorry, I keep asking this because some pages have confused me with wrong nomenclature....



Believe me I understand the confusion. I'm talking about the brown base ones. Just happen to be listening to them right now.


----------



## HPLobster

pctazhp said:


> Believe me I understand the confusion. I'm talking about the brown base ones. Just happen to be listening to them right now.



Nice!  Colour-adapted to the legendary GEC 6AS7G brown base and this very appealing cup of tea to the left... but then over there on the right... a.... err.... formidable headphone stand, that is .....obviously lent straight from NASA ?  

Kidding aside the trio of Euforia, Bimby and HD800S actually make for a very elegant look! I like the Euforia´s small silver platelet...


----------



## pctazhp

HPLobster said:


> Nice!  Colour-adapted to the legendary GEC 6AS7G brown base and this very appealing cup of tea to the left... but then over there on the right... a.... err.... formidable headphone stand, that is .....obviously lent straight from NASA ?
> 
> Kidding aside the trio of Euforia, Bimby and HD800S actually make for a very elegant look! I like the Euforia´s small silver platelet...



Oh you have no idea the grief I've taken over that stand. I make sure it is in all my pictures just to be obnoxious


----------



## DavidA

pctazhp said:


> Oh you have no idea the grief I've taken over that stand. I make sure it is in all my pictures just to be obnoxious



I like the look of the headphone stand, kinda steam-punk looking which I think is cool


----------



## pctazhp

DavidA said:


> I like the look of the headphone stand, kinda steam-punk looking which I think is cool



Well you know me David. I'm just a steam-punk kind of guy


----------



## angpsi (Jun 2, 2017)

HPLobster said:


> hmmm.... I´m actually getting more and more tempted to finally try them also ....
> 
> @angpsi looking forward to read about what you think of these!
> 
> ...


You won't believe how much I feel you! Since I started looking for a 6ns7gtb (per Lukasz's advice) I've been reading tons about the 6ns7 breed of tubes and honestly my head is spinning! Oddly, the Sylvania 6sn7wgt got me interested because (a) of its looks (!), and (b) of Langrex, who I've generally noticed keep offering NOS unused tubes at just the right price, plus the Mullard 6080 were _very_ good indeed and in _excellent_ condition. Thus I felt that if they were to bother with this particular Syl it must be a good thing! Great reasoning, right? 

At least once I got digging deeper into the tube I found that it may be indeed a very special breed, albeit not tier one as the TS VT231 6sn7GT black round plate, the Sylvania 6ns7w, or the obscure Melz 6N8S 1578 hole plates. But then, I say that the Mullard 6080 are about the same grade—some have mentioned that they are even rated at about 80% of the GEC 6as7g's sound signature (although the latter were regarded by the same crowd as 'lifting an extra veil from the music' once installed). Therefore it looks like my wallet can (?) generally afford a move to tier two / bordering tier one set of tubes right now! Unfortunately, @Wreckgar7's research combined with my own endeavors as well as my favorable impression of the Mullard 6080 got me lusting for more... Hopefully, if the new Syls actually bring me "the sun, moon, sky and stars" like @pctazhp's, then I might be able to save myself from new expenditures!

Then again, one can reliably count on Langrex to whet an appetite!...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262988318203
*



*


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> You won't believe how much I feel you! Since I started looking for a 6ns7gtb (per Lukasz's advice) I've been reading tons about the 6ns7 breed of tubes and honestly my head is spinning! Oddly, the Sylvania 6sn7wgt got me interested because (a) of its looks (!), and (b) of Langrex, who I've generally noticed keep offering NOS unused tubes at just the right price, plus the Mullard 6080 were _very_ good indeed and in _excellent_ condition. Thus I felt that if they were to bother with this particular Syl it must be a good thing! Great reasoning, right?
> 
> At least once I got digging deeper into the tube I found that it may be indeed a very special breed, albeit not tier one as the TS VT231 6sn7GT black round plate, the Sylvania 6ns7w, or the obscure Melz 6N8S 1578 hole plates.



I'm not very much into carefully comparing different tubes any more. But I don't necessarily feel my Sylvania 6SN7Ws are better or even as good as my Sylvania 6SN7-WTGs. I do think the WTG is a special tube, at least the pair I have as performing in my system.


----------



## mordy

Hi angpsi.

Just for the record, even though the Melz tubes may sound very good, there are numerous quality problems with these tubes, so much so that Feliks Audio stopped using them (they were offered as an upgrade in the beginning of the Elise) because there were too many rejects.

BTW, I find UT's comment very interesting - after upgrading his DAC the tube selection became less important.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I'm not very much into carefully comparing different tubes any more. But I don't necessarily feel my Sylvania 6SN7Ws are better or even as good as my Sylvania 6SN7-WTGs. I do think the WTG is a special tube, at least the pair I have as performing in my system.


Real happy to hear it; same as I was happy to read your previous assessment of the 6sn7wgt—a.k.a. "the sun, moon, sky and stars"! Honestly I think that while all of you gen.1 people have migrated—with your fat wallets—to the Euforia, Bimby, Yggy etc., this thread is crossing over to gen.2 of tube explorations making the same rounds over again!

Yet there is this reassuring feeling, that you guys still lurk around to feed us with thoughtful advice to guide us through our semi–blind spending spree!...


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi.
> 
> Just for the record, even though the Melz tubes may sound very good, there are numerous quality problems with these tubes, so much so that Feliks Audio stopped using them (they were offered as an upgrade in the beginning of the Elise) because there were too many rejects.
> 
> BTW, I find UT's comment very interesting - after upgrading his DAC the tube selection became less important.


Hi Mordy, true enough—there have been several mentions of this in the past. Your advice justifies the point I made in my previous post! On the same note let me give you special credit for pointing me out towards some great value tubes, here and in private!
DAC upgrade sounds lovely, but even the Bimby costs more than I can afford at the moment... At least the Explorer 2 is widely accepted as a good value proposition!


----------



## angpsi (Jun 2, 2017)

mordy said:


> (...) BTW, I find UT's comment very interesting - after upgrading his DAC the tube selection became less important.


 May I add that I project two possible routes for UT:

He gets a Ragnarok (same real estate, so he can put it on top of the Yggy)
He gradually dives back into tube rolling once his current audio bliss settles
Or he might just as well spend all of his money on that Rolls Royce for the soup kitchen!

Oh, wait—just realised that his funds are unlimited!!!


----------



## pctazhp

You may add those two possibilities and both are correct. His funds may not be unlimited, but I'm sure we can agree his ability to spend funds is unlimited. He is my hero


----------



## hypnos1 (Jun 2, 2017)

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Wow how many typo's, must give up trying to write replies on my phone, too smaller screen. The are the 6f8g's are 1950's stock bought on eBay from the states and played in the same adapters as the 6c8g's, I thought the psvane's where the best I could get for this amp sound wise, having tried some RCA's and Raytheon's, but these tubes Ken-rad 6c8g's take it to another level, Clapton's Unplugged album with the acoustic all the way through sounds amazing, Saint Saens Calme des nuits - just voices, I'm in the room........ If the amp sounds this good with these tubes......   Mmmmm need to look further. UT, would be very interested to hear the results of your GEC 6080 purchase, when you've had a listen. Need my Aeon's, seem to be taking an age to get here, sure they'll be worth the wait. Are any of you guys going to Canjam London?



Hi SMF...sorry for the late reply but sadly, my time for devoting to this (and my Euforia thread) is much curtailed at the moment.

Glad to see you're enjoying Elise more and more as you discover new tubes...there is indeed a wide choice available, and browsing through past material (when you have the time lol!) might just entice you into alternative territory...once you've spent more time with your amp, and depending upon your own levels of curiosity!!.Above all...ENJOY!!..CHEERS!, CJ

ps. I am indeed going to CanJam in July (Sunday)...see you there?...


----------



## blackrain139

Guys,

I'm a new Elise owner and I'm loving this wonderful amp.

Does anyone here encounter the occasional "hum/buzz"? It is a short 1 sec hum/buzz and it happens intermittently and at random times - every 30 secs to 2 mins.

I'm using the stock power tubes and the upgraded PSVane driver tubes


----------



## hypnos1 (Jun 2, 2017)

blackrain139 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm a new Elise owner and I'm loving this wonderful amp.
> 
> ...



Hi b139...and welcome to this (also wonderful!) group.

Glad to hear you're loving the amp already, but sorry to hear of your hum/buzz. The most likely culprit at this stage is a poor connection somewhere - please check your power plug is in TIGHT; same for the tubes (perhaps 'wiggle' them GENTLY to see if it can be induced, but remember the powers especially get very HOT!); same for the interconnects...ie. each and *every* connection in the system lol! Also, if a tube is possibly to blame, try removing them one at a time, starting with the front drivers - ONCE COOL! - and see if that shows up anything.

Hopefully this will trace the cause...if not, further examination for possible interference from electrical items in the vicinity may be needed.

If still no joy, power everything off and try again a little later. Perhaps others will have further advice.

I hope it turns out to be something simple, related to what I've just mentioned...keep us informed, please...CJ


----------



## UntilThen

blackrain139 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'm a new Elise owner and I'm loving this wonderful amp.
> 
> ...



Welcome and congrats Blackrain. At what volume are you getting hum/buzz? Is it with music playing or without?

I'm asking because I experience that with my Euforia previously .... with no music playing and volume to max. Strangely after changing my DAC to Yggy, that went away. Thinking it might be a problem with my previous NAD d1050, I reconnect the NAD now - that problem is no longer there !!! I'm a happy vegemite now. Will test further and if not a problem, I will let Lukasz know because I told him about it and being the amazing person that he is, he is willing to replace my Euforia.

Also let your Elise and tubes burn in for a spell. That will change things.

All the best and hope you will be rid of this problem and continue to enjoy Elise.

Cheers
UT


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> May I add that I project two possible routes for UT:
> 
> He gets a Ragnarok (same real estate, so he can put it on top of the Yggy)
> He gradually dives back into tube rolling once his current audio bliss settles
> ...



None of the above I'm afraid. I'm actually a down to earth street busker and a very good one too.

Regarding tubes and with other aspects of your gear, having a balanced system is important. Synergy. You can get the most expensive tube, tube amp and headphone but if they are not matching, you won't be happy. For instance, if your tubes are bright, your amp is bright and your headphone is bright, you probably will have to wear sunglasses when listening to music. Or if your tubes are warm, your amp is warm and your headphone is warm, you probably have to go nude when listening to music.

My point is, most tubes can sound good. Some exceptions though. The better tubes are more detailed and smoother. Some are more energetic like the TS 5998. Personal preference is a big factor. Some like matching brown base, shape of the tube, less heat, etc. For me I just close my eyes and let my ears take over. Well not quite.... I can't stand a messy setup with wires sticking out everywhere and tubes stack up on adapters higher than the Eiffel Tower.

I've come to the end of the road for tubes purchase. The only tube I might get is the GEC 6AS7G but at $500 for a NOS pair, I have to consider carefully. That could get me a Lynx AES16e pro audio card to feed Yggy with AES or I could buy a Black Dragon or Draug V2 or half a Cardas cable for my HD800. In the end, I might do none of those, pocket my $500 and just enjoy the music.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> None of the above I'm afraid. I'm actually a down to earth street busker and a very good one too.
> 
> Regarding tubes and with other aspects of your gear, having a balanced system is important. Synergy. You can get the most expensive tube, tube amp and headphone but if they are not matching, you won't be happy. For instance, if your tubes are bright, your amp is bright and your headphone is bright, you probably will have to wear sunglasses when listening to music. Or if your tubes are warm, your amp is warm and your headphone is warm, you probably have to go nude when listening to music.
> 
> ...



I very much agree with you about tubes.

For what it's worth (which will depend on how much you decide to send me for this advice), my many decades as an audiophile convinced me that money spent on cables is the most inefficient way to spend money on audio. I have never used anything with my HD800S other than the stock unbalanced cable so I can't speak from person experience on alternatives, but I cringe when I see the cost manufacturers charge for cables, including headphone cables.

As between GEC6AS7G and a Lynx card, if it were me I would go with the Lynx. I like my GECs a lot, but if I had a Yiggy I think I would want to use its best input. And maybe over time you might find a good deal on a decent pair of GECs.

I believe you have my mailing address to know where to send the check for generously providing you this advice.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 2, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> (...) Regarding tubes and with other aspects of your gear, having a balanced system is important. Synergy. You can get the most expensive tube, tube amp and headphone but if they are not matching, you won't be happy.


 As an architect, I'm all in for synergy. I find that the Mullard 6080 and Sylvania 6sn7wgt will probably complement each other very nicely! In fact, I expect the warm reflection of the former including the metallic accents of the base to highlight the vintage yet confidently robust style of the latter very elegantly! On the contrary, I bought the TS as a grunge alternative. Since @HPLobster is on the lookout for my impressions I'll be sure to post good pictures too! 

On the same note UT, there's an undeniable minimalistic elegance in your signature these days which is something we can all aspire to achieve some day! 





> JRiver 22 > Yggdrasil > Euforia by Feliks Audio > HD800


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> On the same note UT, there's an undeniable minimalistic elegance in your signature these days which is something we can all aspire to achieve some day!



You don't like this? Sigh I've to change avatar now.


----------



## pctazhp (Jun 2, 2017)

I like it ok but it lacks the power and impact of "UntilThen Enterprises" or whatever your international audio conglomerate is called.


----------



## myphone

Mullard 6080 and Tungsol 6SN7GT (Rabbit ears) combo works really well, just right amount of richness, good resolution, and smooth flow.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 3, 2017)

myphone said:


> Mullard 6080 and Tungsol 6SN7GT (Rabbit ears) combo works really well, just right amount of richness, good resolution, and smooth flow.


Good to hear! Can't wait to try them out for myself! Honestly, I bought these for reasons of comparison to the Sylvania 6sn7wgt.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> You don't like this? Sigh I've to change avatar now.


No, it's quite befitting! In my mind the dress symbolizes the Yggy, the HD800... well... the HD800, and... well the Euforia is in the air!

Of course the UT productions avatar could give a poor man suggestions as to how you may possibly afford all your gear!


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## UntilThen (Jun 3, 2017)

You are hard to please 

Who truncated my Avatar?


----------



## UntilThen

myphone said:


> Mullard 6080 and Tungsol 6SN7GT (Rabbit ears) combo works really well, just right amount of richness, good resolution, and smooth flow.



Mouse ears it's called  It's a nice sounding driver but I have one only.

First time I'm spinning Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top with Tung Sol 5998 with my new setup..... and there I go again rolling with tubes. This sounds incredible. It's pushing the HD800 to it's limits.


----------



## HPLobster

Since I still haven´t finished my write-up of the EL-tubes, I thought I´d share this with you instead :

I visited the "Elbjazz Festival" in Hamburg yesterday, the linup I saw was: Beady Belle & Bugge Wesseltoft, NDR Bigband & Nguyen Le (playing an arrangement of "The Dark Side Of The Moon" ), the Joshua Redman Trio (some amazing saxophone solos there), Agnes Obel (great live act - which kind of surprised me) and last but not least Snarky Puppy - these guys were just amazing! 9 of the ensemble´s members attended the Festival, every single one of them a wizard at their instrument - good times


----------



## UntilThen

Dark Side Of The Moon is Pink Floyd's most successful commercial album, having sold more than 45 million copies. I have both the vinyl (courtesy of @connieflyer) and CD version. This has remained one of my favourite album. No cover will do it justice.

Listening to Time now on Tidal. Sound is crystal.... clear.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Dark Side Of The Moon is Pink Floyd's most successful commercial album, having sold more than 45 million copies. I have both the vinyl (courtesy of @connieflyer) and CD version. This has remained one of my favourite album. No cover will do it justice.
> 
> Listening to Time now on Tidal. Sound is crystal.... clear.



I own their whole discography and there is not a badly recorded album out of the whole bunch.....my wife bought me the remaster set a few years back for Christmas....these albums are epic!  

Pink Floyd on your system should be outstanding!


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I own their whole discography and there is not a badly recorded album out of the whole bunch.....my wife bought me the remaster set a few years back for Christmas....these albums are epic!
> 
> Pink Floyd on your system should be outstanding!



It will be outstanding on your system too when your new Holo Spring Kitsune Special Edition Level 3 dac and Glenn EL3N tube amp arrives. It should be very interesting to hear your setup then. I think it's a very good choice.


----------



## UntilThen

Haven't been using my T1 much lately. I have it on now and DSOM sounds even more dynamic. 

I should just keep rotating the headphones.... even modded HD650.


----------



## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> Dark Side Of The Moon is Pink Floyd's most successful commercial album, having sold more than 45 million copies. I have both the vinyl (courtesy of @connieflyer) and CD version. This has remained one of my favourite album. No cover will do it justice.
> 
> Listening to Time now on Tidal. Sound is crystal.... clear.



Well, it wasn´t really a cover, a coverband trying to reproduce Pink Floyd would be kind of lame obviously. It was a Jazz-Big-Band-rearrangement, the motifs showed through here and there and Nguyen Le did an amazing job on his guitar solo work. Clearly, in his Jazz Fusion - manner, he didn´t even try to imitate Gilmour. I think they did a pretty good job at doing DSOTM justice 

BTW I´m solely using the LCD-3 for rock music nowadays. Once you get sucked into it´s enticing vortex of rock band - sound quality, there is no going back


----------



## blackrain139

@hypnos1 @UntilThen

Appreciate the help and advice guys.

I've ruled out inputs as the intermittent hum happens with just the power cable attached. It is also independent from the volume control. I still get the occasional 0.5 sec to 1 sec buzz/hum at 0 on the volume knob

The strange thing is that it happens pretty randomly. I'll slowly remove one tube and at time and see if I can isolate the source.

I've emailed Lukasz 2 days ago and hopefully I can get assistance from him and keep you guys informed on the outcome.

Cheers!


----------



## Oskari

I suppose you have eliminated mobile devices, wi-fi routers and such as possible causes.


----------



## myphone (Jun 3, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Mouse ears it's called  It's a nice sounding driver but I have one only.
> .



Yeah, mouse ears.


----------



## myphone




----------



## UntilThen

Welcome to Elise land @myphone 

It's good to have owners of Elise sharing. Sounds like you're loving it.


----------



## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> BTW I´m solely using the LCD-3 for rock music nowadays. Once you get sucked into it´s enticing vortex of rock band - sound quality, there is no going back



Lobster send the LCD-3 to me for evaluations and I'll tell you if I agree with your assessment.


----------



## connieflyer

UT I am surprised you don't have a pair already, you already emptied out Addicted to Audio, you may as well just buy a pair to try!


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## UntilThen (Jun 3, 2017)

You'll be surprised I didn't have Utopia and Abyss Diana too.

Send me those please.

And HE1000 V2 too.


----------



## connieflyer

The Gungnir multi-bit dac is sounding quite good, looks like I might keep it.  So far the musical presentation is very enjoyable and especially like the way piano is  presented the fast attack and resolution is working very well.  Using the El 11's from Hypnos1 and TS 5998 right now.


----------



## blackrain139

Oskari said:


> I suppose you have eliminated mobile devices, wi-fi routers and such as possible causes.



I do have a basic wi-fi router in the same room but it is pretty far away. About 5 meters


----------



## Oskari

blackrain139 said:


> I do have a basic wi-fi router in the same room but it is pretty far away. About 5 meters


Well, shouldn't be difficult to find out whether that is a problem.


----------



## myphone

UntilThen said:


> Welcome to Elise land
> 
> It's good to have owners of Elise sharing. Sounds like you're loving it.



My error. Should be in Euforia land.


----------



## HPLobster (Jun 3, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Lobster send the LCD-3 to me for evaluations and I'll tell you if I agree with your assessment.



I actually will  Three month from now, once you have finally done the Utopia-purchase, I´m going to happily agree on a temporary exchange  You can quote me on that


----------



## HPLobster

connieflyer said:


> The Gungnir multi-bit dac is sounding quite good, looks like I might keep it.  So far the musical presentation is very enjoyable and especially like the way piano is  presented the fast attack and resolution is working very well.  Using the El 11's from Hypnos1 and TS 5998 right now.



I´m very glad you are enjoying it, CF  It´s an outstanding DAC, it really is... It´s the cure to audiophilia nervosa.  
There may be other DACs out there and there may be other DACs in future. Gumby makes you forget about all of them. This is end game.


----------



## UntilThen

Sounds like an honest


myphone said:


> My error. Should be in Euforia land.



Ah ha, you have a Euforia, I see.


----------



## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> I´m very glad you are enjoying it, CF  It´s an outstanding DAC, it really is... It´s the cure to audiophilia nervosa.
> *There may be other DACs out there and there may be other DACs in future. Gumby makes you forget about all of them. This is end game.*



Daymmmmmm, does anyone want to trade their Gumby with my Yggy? I'll throw in a free USB cable.


----------



## connieflyer

Tell you what UT, if you throw in the Utopia, I will consider the trade!  That is unless Lobsta keeps the Utopia first! You need more equipment to lend out and or trade!


----------



## UntilThen

I heard Utopia (with Euforia ) only once and it's encapsulated in my mind. I can't throw in Utopia because that would be throwing in my brain.


----------



## connieflyer

But do you really need your brain?   How was the sound from that combo? Would like to get a demo of the Utopia only dealer I found was 30 miles away and he did not have a store per say, had to make an appointment and he would meet you at his "store"


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 3, 2017)

This is what I said about the Utopia when I heard it at the meet.

_*Sorry folks, sorry for your wallet but this is the best headphone I've heard and it's perfect with Euforia !!!*_

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-113#post-13374135

....but I've forgotten about it now. Just loving HD800 with UntilThen's system. 

Well I talk about end game then. Little did I know that I'll get a Yggy and HD800 in 2 months time.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> But do you really need your brain?   How was the sound from that combo? Would like to get a demo of the Utopia only dealer I found was 30 miles away and he did not have a store per say, had to make an appointment and he would meet you at his "store"



CF, you have the best now. You don't need more. Diminishing returns sets in quick from here on. Just enjoy your music with Gumby, Euforia and HD800.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> The Gungnir multi-bit dac is sounding quite good, looks like I might keep it.  So far the musical presentation is very enjoyable and especially like the way piano is  presented the fast attack and resolution is working very well.  Using the El 11's from Hypnos1 and TS 5998 right now.



Perhaps before a moderator tags you, I should warn you about your brash, outlandish and undisciplined use of Over The Top language. Highly emotional, self-indulgent language laced with hyperbole and excessive use of adjectives is often frowned upon here. Perhaps you can take a few deep breaths, meditate for 20 minutes and see if you can calm down enough to remember to take your Spam out of the oven.


----------



## UntilThen

This is just the beginning. Give him a few more days and he will go full throttle. CF, don't forget to listen to Fresh Aire 1,2,3,4,5,6,7.


----------



## mordy

HPLobster said:


> Since I still haven´t finished my write-up of the EL-tubes, I thought I´d share this with you instead :
> 
> I visited the "Elbjazz Festival" in Hamburg yesterday, the linup I saw was: Beady Belle & Bugge Wesseltoft, NDR Bigband & Nguyen Le (playing an arrangement of "The Dark Side Of The Moon" ), the Joshua Redman Trio (some amazing saxophone solos there), Agnes Obel (great live act - which kind of surprised me) and last but not least Snarky Puppy - these guys were just amazing! 9 of the ensemble´s members attended the Festival, every single one of them a wizard at their instrument - good times



Hi LPL,

Listened to the snarling puppies (or whatever they are called). I am stuck on old jazz from the 20's, so it is not my type of music, and I prefer band names like Harry's Happy Four, but anyhow - here is my question:
Why is everyone, and seemingly the audience as well, wearing headphones? (And which headphones are they wearing?)


----------



## UntilThen

We should go to Canjam London. Feliks Audio will be there.


----------



## connieflyer

Let me reiterate, stuff sounds okay


----------



## HPLobster (Jun 4, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi LPL,
> 
> Listened to the snarling puppies (or whatever they are called). I am stuck on old jazz from the 20's, so it is not my type of music, and I prefer band names like Harry's Happy Four, but anyhow - here is my question:
> Why is everyone, and seemingly the audience as well, wearing headphones? (And which headphones are they wearing?)




Hi mordy,

I feel you, normally this isn´t my kind of music/preferred jazz also. I have never listened through one of their albums before at home, but as a live-act, enjoying their music on a bright sunny day during a perfectly-organized open-air festival in the Port of Hamburg while sipping Caipirinha together with my wife.....was.....inspiring! 
The video I posted here was an excerpt from their live-DVD, so they are wearing headphones during recording while playing on a sound stage. The headphones are the Audio-Technica ATH R50RD Limited Edition Red. Snarky Puppy have won three Grammy Awards btw.

Here´s some footage of the "Joshua Redman Trio" I also mentioned seeing, even though sound quality is a bit lacking on this recording. The Sax-solos were more than impressive...





I won´t bother you with clips I took by myself with my cellphone at the actual Elbjazz Festival because I don´t want your headphone-systems to implode the second they are being exposed to their horrendous sq


----------



## mordy (Jun 4, 2017)

HPLobster said:


> Hi mordy,
> 
> I feel you, normally this isn´t my kind of music/preferred jazz also. I have never listened through one of their albums before at home, but as a live-act, enjoying their music on a bright sunny day during a perfectly-organized open-air festival in the Port of Hamburg while sipping Caipirinha together with my wife.....was.....inspiring!
> The video I posted here was an excerpt from their live-DVD, so they are wearing headphones during recording while playing on a sound stage. The headphones are the Audio-Technica ATH R50RD Limited Edition Red. Snarky Puppy have won three Grammy Awards btw.
> ...



Hi LPL,

Thanks for the clarification. The Redman Trio has very gifted musicians. As for poor sound quality,I am not afraid of that at all - a lot of the recordings I am listening to were made in the early 20's and acoustically recorded on poor equipment. Some 78s are so rare that only a single scratched copy remains....



The surface noise should evoke memories among those of us who listened to 78s .......

I think that the recording above has been cleaned up. This copy is how I remember how it sounds:


----------



## connieflyer

UT listening to MH now.  Went back to PSAudio new wave dac to see  if I still like it, I do.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> UT listening to MH now.  Went back to PSAudio new wave dac to see  if I still like it, I do.



Good for you buddy. Trust your ears and your own music.


----------



## pctazhp

I have no idea why but I can't seem to get this song off my mind today.


----------



## HPLobster

mordy said:


> Hi LPL,
> 
> Thanks for the clarification. The Redman Trio has very gifted musicians. As for poor sound quality,I am not afraid of that at all - a lot of the recordings I am listening to were made in the early 20's and acoustically recorded on poor equipment. Some 78s are so rare that only a single scratched copy remains....
> 
> ...





Nice, very nice 
I wish I would have listened to this at home yesterday evening... instead, I´m sitting here at work (it´s Monday, 12 noon in Germany) using the crappy built-in computer monitor speakers  Still, the emotion gets carried over 
Looking forward to listening to this with Elise->HD800 tonight...


----------



## mordy (Jun 5, 2017)

Hi LPL,

You mean, you enjoy listening to old jazz? Brings me to tears...



This recording is entitled Tears - Louis Armstrong taking the lead at 1:35 with eight unbelievable breaks. This recording is seldom played but one of the high points in the life of young Louis Armstrong. The style is called collective improvisation - think 7 or 8 people taking at the same time, and all making sense.
With the great playback equipment we have you should be able to distinguish between the darker sound of the cornet of Joe Oliver (the teacher of Louis) and the brighter tone of Louis Armstrong, even when they play together.

Then I stumbled upon a recording I haven't heard before. Somebody recorded Louis Armstrong in his home playing along with his 1923 recording. You can feel the emotions of living through his youth. The sound quality is poor, but the emotional impact of this recording brings me to...tears.



Don't know the year when this recording was made.


----------



## HPLobster

mordy said:


> Hi LPL,
> 
> You mean, you enjoy listening to old jazz? Brings me to tears...
> 
> ...





Hi mordy,

now these recordings really are something special. Thank you for sharing these treasures here, enjoying them very much.

I used to be a Rock ´n´Roll guy back in the days, mostly Alternative and Grunge, then came Indie, then Prog Rock, after this came Jazz, then Classical music, electronic, experimental.... nowadays I enjoy listening to every kind of music, deep down, I´m not an audiophile, I´m a musicphile....
Ultimately, I´m searching for that special magical ingredient in a recording, in a singers voice, in a guitar or trumpet solo, in the background harmonics.... the little something that manages to put me in a certain mood, evoke a certain kind of feeling.... something that comes from the heart...

I guess we all are the same in this regard. If we have come so far as to buy a Feliks Audio amp and tube roll, we all are brothers in spirit, we are on the same search.....that´s what makes this thread so special


----------



## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> I guess we all are the same in this regard. If we have come so far as to buy a Feliks Audio amp and tube roll, we all are brothers in spirit, we are on the same search.....that´s what makes this thread so special



Brothers in arms or tubes? My restored Elise is completed. Basically a new amp save for the transfo and chassis. Lukasz says it has the upgrade specs. Whatever that means, I think it's an Elise on steroids. Can't wait to get it back and run it side by side with Euforia.

Check out the Euforia thread. I can't be double posting.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Lovin' this setup, Ken-Rad 6C8G up front Sylvania 6080's the detail, layers & soundstage cookin'......


----------



## pctazhp

Stunning picture Snapper.


----------



## oshipao

Hi there gents and ladies,

I have not visited the thread more than on rare occasions the last year and I am happy to see that most of you are still going strong ☺️

Has anyone of you tried out the CV181/ECC32 tube in the Elise?

With a pair of 6AS7G the current draw would be a total of 6.9 Ah and beyond the recommended value. Feliks Audio does however specify that it should be a good-to-go alternative in the manual.


----------



## oshipao

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Lovin' this setup, Ken-Rad 6C8G up front Sylvania 6080's the detail, layers & soundstage cookin'......



Vey nice indeed! Have you tried the regular Ken-Rad VT-231 by any chance? Would love to hear a comparison of these as the 6SN7 tube is my favourite.

Happy listening!


----------



## connieflyer

When I had the Elise (now Euforia) I used the vt-231's with the TS 5998's and thought it great, still use this in current amp


----------



## oshipao

connieflyer said:


> When I had the Elise (now Euforia) I used the vt-231's with the TS 5998's and thought it great, still use this in current amp



Sorry connieflyer. I need to rephrase that, did not come out as it should have. I have too Ken-Rad VT-231 but with regular Tung Sol 6AS7G and have yet to come across anything better in the Elise. So I wonder if the 6F8G (6C8G?) tubes sound any different ☺️


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

oshipao said:


> Vey nice indeed! Have you tried the regular Ken-Rad VT-231 by any chance? Would love to hear a comparison of these as the 6SN7 tube is my favourite.
> 
> Happy listening!


Hi Oshipao,

No I haven't tried the VT-231 Ken-Rads, had difficulty finding any at a reasonable price. The 6C8G's have so much detail, I bought another pair from the states their original 1943 packaging. Have some Marconi 6080's on their way looking forward to trying them
with the 6C8G's too.


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> as the *6SN7 tube is my favourite*.



Too right. They are the designated drivers for Elise and Euforia. Those amps were tune for it.


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> Has anyone of you tried out the CV181/ECC32 tube in the Elise?
> 
> With a pair of 6AS7G the current draw would be a total of 6.9 Ah and beyond the recommended value. Feliks Audio does however specify that it should be a good-to-go alternative in the manual.



Stick with good 6sn7. ECC32 are very expensive tubes and are not exactly straight drop in replacement for 6sn7. More power draw. See https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/.

If you are willing to pay for ECC32, you might as well buy Tung Sol 6sn7gt black round plates.


----------



## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> Brothers in arms or tubes? My restored Elise is completed. Basically a new amp save for the transfo and chassis. Lukasz says it has the upgrade specs. Whatever that means, I think it's an Elise on steroids. Can't wait to get it back and run it side by side with Euforia.
> 
> Check out the Euforia thread. I can't be double posting.



Roger that!


----------



## oshipao

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Hi Oshipao,
> 
> No I haven't tried the VT-231 Ken-Rads, had difficulty finding any at a reasonable price. The 6C8G's have so much detail, I bought another pair from the states their original 1943 packaging. Have some Marconi 6080's on their way looking forward to trying them
> with the 6C8G's too.



Thank you. They sound to be quality! Yes, they are starting to become a scarce commodity. Would like to hear what you think of the Marconis when you have evaluated them. Wonder if they would have been manufactered at one of the Mullard plants...


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> Stick with good 6sn7. ECC32 are very expensive tubes and are not exactly straight drop in replacement for 6sn7. More power draw. See https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/.
> 
> If you are willing to pay for ECC32, you might as well buy Tung Sol 6sn7gt black round plates.



Thanks UT. Yes, I would have sticked with the regular 6SN7 but happened to come across a NOS pair from 1945 for a price that was too good to walk away from


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Has anyone had experience of the Elise with Focal Elear headphones?


----------



## UntilThen

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Has anyone had experience of the Elise with Focal Elear headphones?



I tried both Elear and Utopia with Euforia at the local meet. Both headphones pair very well with the amp. Utopia is incredible.

Elear is an engaging and impactful sounding headphone. I love it with Euforia, even more so than HD650.


----------



## blackrain139

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Has anyone had experience of the Elise with Focal Elear headphones?



I do. I run the HD800s and the Elear on the Elise.

The Elear sounds wonderful on the Elise. The Elear retains it speed, aggression and the pairing with Elise adds soundstage and musicality to the mix. A wonderful euphoric pairing

As compared to pairing with a solid state, the bass on the Elear becomes a little looser. However, the added musicality, soundstage and euphoric tone more than makes up for it!


----------



## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> Roger that!



Roger that. 

... meaning received.

Originated from spelling alphabets. In the military, the phonetic alphabets are

Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy, Fox, George, How, Item, Jig, King, Love, Mike, Nan, Oboe, Peter, Queen, *Roger*, Sugar, Tare, Uncle, Victor, William, X-ray, Yoke, Zebra


----------



## mordy (Jun 7, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Roger that.
> 
> ... meaning received.
> 
> ...



In the US we say: That's a 10-4.

And: What's your 20?

_Ten-codes, especially "10-4" (meaning "understood") first reached public recognition in the mid- to late-1950s through the popular television series Highway Patrol, with Broderick Crawford. Crawford would reach into his patrol car to use the microphone to answer a call and precede his response with "10-4".


Ten-codes were adapted for use by CB radio enthusiasts. C. W. McCall's hit song "Convoy" (1975), depicting conversation among CB-communicating truckers, put phrases like 10-4 and what's your twenty? (10-20 for "where are you?") into common use in American English._


----------



## Gjoel

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Has anyone had experience of the Elise with Focal Elear headphones?



Will repost my post from other thread:

"_Time to share a bit, and not only read 

i'm also a fairly new Elise owner, around 2 months. Using it in a bedroom setup with a Auralic Aries mini as streamer and dac.

I have mainly been using it with Focal Elear, Beyerdynamic T1. 
What a surprising and wonderful match with Elear, very engaging sound.

Last week i found a pair of HEX priced fair, and took the chance to sell Elear to finance em'.

Did own the HEX before, and did really miss em'. Didn't really know what to expect from Elise and HEX. Could only find one member mention them together. But what a pleasantly surprise, when i plugged them in today 

What a magical vocal that pair can reproduce! was afraid the high output impedance from Elise would screw it up with the sensitive HEX.

Have only been using stock tubes, but got a pair psvane uk-6sn7 arriving tomorrow!"_


Can only recommend Elise with Elear. 
They are a very sweet match.


----------



## elNan

blackrain139 said:


> I do. I run the HD800s and the Elear on the Elise.
> 
> The Elear sounds wonderful on the Elise. The Elear retains it speed, aggression and the pairing with Elise adds soundstage and musicality to the mix. A wonderful euphoric pairing
> 
> As compared to pairing with a solid state, the bass on the Elear becomes a little looser. However, the added musicality, soundstage and euphoric tone more than makes up for it!



And what about the HD800s?


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

The hd800s 's are a bit out of my price range, & from what I've read some think they are a little clinical & I'm looking for a less demanding/fatiguing headphone, The Elear looks very interesting coming from a manufacturer with a vast reputation for product, superb speakers, that's why I asked the question, more interested in people's opinions of the pairing of the Elise and Elear.


----------



## Oskari

Gjoel said:


> Last week i found a pair of HEX priced fair


HEX? What is that?


----------



## DavidA

Hifiman HE-X, a very easy to drive planar (they sound really good with a cheap DAP like Fiio X3 or X3ii), same shape as the HE-1000 but different color and drivers.


----------



## Oskari

I see. Thanks @DavidA.


----------



## UntilThen

Glad everyone is having a great time with Elise and various headphones.

Elise will be home bound to me soon from Feliks Audio. In the meantime, I'm using her younger brother Euforia with HD800. Perfect match.


----------



## UntilThen

elNan said:


> And what about the HD800s?



HD800 will be a natural with Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

SnapperMusicFan said:


> The hd800s 's are a bit out of my price range, & from what I've read some think they are a little clinical



Not when paired with a capable tube amp such as Elise. HD800 becomes musical then. How do I know? I'm using HD800 with Euforia now.


----------



## UntilThen

For all Elise owners, do take a moment to read my post here. It is important.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-192#post-13534969


----------



## blackrain139

elNan said:


> And what about the HD800s?



I like the pairing of HD800s with the Elise more than the Elear. It makes the HD800s more musical.

Basically, just like a lot tube amps, pairing it with a brighter headphone is a great match.


----------



## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> For all Elise owners, do take a moment to read my post here. It is important.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-192#post-13534969



hm. this chastens me quite a bit. 

I always knew that those tubes are not officially recommended, of course. But since the max. current didn´t exceed 6,8 A and all you troupers were raving about the sound, my adventurous vein prevailed as I was eager to make the most out of the Elise sonically.  I don´t think you posted about your left channel going mute here in the Elise-thread back then but then of course you can´t post everything twice and maybe I just missed it because it must have happened at the time when I opted out for a while in April/May.. Fact is I missed it. And now I´m concerned. I use "EL-" tubes pretty much all the time...

I invested quite a bit in those tubes, I could have easily purchased the GEC 6080s and a pair of Sylvania 6SN7wgta, or maybe even some "holy grail" - 6AS7-tubes instead, now I´m frankly thinking of selling the lot and actually doing so...


----------



## UntilThen

HPLobster said:


> hm. this chastens me quite a bit.
> 
> I always knew that those tubes are not officially recommended, of course. But since the max. current didn´t exceed 6,8 A and all you troupers were raving about the sound, my adventurous vein prevailed as I was eager to make the most out of the Elise sonically.  I don´t think you posted about your left channel going mute here in the Elise-thread back then but then of course you can´t post everything twice and maybe I just missed it because it must have happened at the time when I opted out for a while in April/May.. Fact is I missed it. And now I´m concerned. I use "EL-" tubes pretty much all the time...
> 
> I invested quite a bit in those tubes, I could have easily purchased the GEC 6080s and a pair of Sylvania 6SN7wgta, or maybe even some "holy grail" - 6AS7-tubes instead, now I´m frankly thinking of selling the lot and actually doing so...



All is not lost Lobster. It would take a much longer usage to cause damage. So going on rehab is good. Go back to recommended tubes and enjoy your Gumby > Elise > HD800 or LCD3.

.... and chase the holy grail..... nah GEC 6080 is good enough. It is really good !!!


----------



## HPLobster

HPLobster said:


> I invested quite a bit in those tubes, I could have easily purchased the GEC 6080s and a pair of Sylvania 6SN7wgta, or maybe even some "holy grail" - 6AS7-tubes instead, now I´m frankly thinking of selling the lot and actually doing so...




Let me rephrase that: I was going to buy those anyway sooner or later,


UntilThen said:


> All is not lost Lobster. It would take a much longer usage to cause damage. So going on rehab is good. Go back to recommended tubes and enjoy your Gumby > Elise > HD800 or LCD3.
> 
> .... and chase the holy grail..... nah GEC 6080 is good enough. It is really good !!!



Thank you for the encouragement. Sure, I don´t think that it has yet been damaged either, It´s just that I can´t help feeling that I´ll have to reassort my setup now all over again, thinking I was already settled. Aaaargh, all those adapters....  I really have to sleep on it for a few nights. 
In the meantime, it´s back to the PsVane 6SN7 driving my Mullard 6080


----------



## oshipao

Hi everyone,

As we are discussing compatability etc. I got an answer from Michal Feliks regarding the total current draw.


Question 1:

Me: "Hello Michal, I have a Elise amp and wonder if 6.9Ah total draw current would be too much?"

Michal: "Hello Emil! Yes, you can use these tubes as an alternative without any problems."


Question 2:

Me: "Thank you Michal, Just so we can confirm we are talking about the same tube (see link). ECC32 are 0.95Ah vs  6SN7 0.6Ah. http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc32.html. Some think that these drivers paired with powers would be too much for the transformator. I just want to keep it safe."

Michal: "Yes, you can use it even when the current is like in ECC32. The transformator is prepared for work with higher current."


So to my understanding, 6.9Ah total would not cause any problems regarding stressing the transformer. Maybe other parts are more of a concern.


----------



## UntilThen

If FA tells you it's ok, you should be ok to use the ECC32.

I haven't use my ECC31 for a while. It's a close cousin of ECC32 but I just don't like using adapters anymore. With ECC32, no adapters are required.


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> If FA tells you it's ok, you should be ok to use the ECC32.
> 
> I haven't use my ECC31 for a while. It's a close cousin of ECC32 but I just don't like using adapters anymore. With ECC32, no adapters are required.



Yes, I think so too.

I would like to have a short review of your upgraded Elise once back from Poland if that is possible  I am too interested in maybe do some surgery if the benefits are worth it.


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> I am too interested in maybe do some surgery if the benefits are worth it.



You know where this is leading to right? It's leading to Euforia... 

Look at the Euforia's thread where I had pictures of Euforia and Elise side by side.

However I still like Elise and would certainly give my impressions of the upgraded Elise vs Euforia when I get it back and have spend some time with it.


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> (...) , the wgt are indeed "the moon, the stars, and the sun"! Refined and neutral, yet very gutsy and rendering everything with authority; these tubes can actually move air on my HD600! This is _the first time_ I can admit a clear edge over the Psvane, and actually _see what all the fuss about NOS tubes is about_! This is also the first time I witnessed the HD600 scale to the point that I feel there may be need to upgrade them! (Plus, omg the head clamp! But that's a different story...)
> 
> @HPLobster if you're online as I post this don't even wait for my impressions, just go out and get them before they go away!
> 
> ...


Moving my initial post on the Sylvania 6sn7wgt I got from Langrex, as I still remain an Elise owner. Couple of hours later, with continuing listening I remain firm that these are quality tubes! Here are some pictures including the unboxing. Langrex is very thorough on how it ships the tubes and I, for one, have to acknowledge it! The address is removed from the package for privacy reasons - if anyone wants to offer me a free Euforia, a T1, or an HD800 I can give you the address via pm!


----------



## angpsi

I also got a pair of early version Tung Sol 6sn7gt for comparison reasons. Nevertheless, I don't see the WGTs moving from my setup any time soon...


----------



## UntilThen

Very nice looking Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Mullard 6080. Congrats @angpsi .

I just swapped to Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Bendix 6080wb. The contest between Gec 6080 and Bendix 6080wb is going to be real close. Bendix has that weight to the overall sound and engaging bass which I really like. There has been one report that the Bendix sounded slow and uninvolving. That's pure garbage. Bendix 6080wb has the sonics of a premier tube.

Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Bendix 6080wb.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I also got a pair of early version Tung Sol 6sn7gt for comparison reasons. Nevertheless, I don't see the WGTs moving from my setup any time soon...



The Tung Sol 6sn7gt might surprise you. Those are the more coverted GT version as opposed to the cheaper GTB version.

Pop it in and tell me what you hear. Avoid OTT and tell me the sound attributes. Ie. whether it's bright or warm, fast or slow, clear or dull, transparent or opaque, dazzling or throw it in the bin variety.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 9, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> The Tung Sol 6sn7gt might surprise you. Those are the more coverted GT version as opposed to the cheaper GTB version.
> 
> Pop it in and tell me what you hear. Avoid OTT and tell me the sound attributes. Ie. whether it's bright or warm, fast or slow, clear or dull, transparent or opaque, dazzling or throw it in the bin variety.


As you were writing this I too remembered I had to check whether the TS were working! Swapped the WGTs and presto, they're good to go! First impressions, much more rounder than the WGT but very articulate, they will play the Gene Ammons album rendering more of a whole picture than the impressive separation the WGT delivers. Same goes for Solti's Beethoven: I think they are much more doing a global rendering instead of flushing out every minute detail. Tonally I would say neutral for Sylvania, but I wouldn't call the Tung Sol warm. Instead, I'm using the term 'round'. You're right, it could prove to be a very pleasurable tube in terms of set and forget, I can definitely see myself just listening to the music without worrying about the recording.

Still, the WGT is more impressive straight away. i wonder how these two will develop over time.

Again, you should take everything I say with a pinch of salt (more like a lump, actually), these are still first impressions right out of the box. I'll be sure to keep you guys posted!


----------



## angpsi (Jun 9, 2017)

Quick addition after listening to Paul's Boutique and Lianne LaHavas: the TS can definitely be less offensive to the recording and paint more of a global picture. The Sylvania WGT sounds like it has more gain: a bit louder, with a very big slam, along with the precision which they flush out all the details with—kinda reminds me of the EL12 but without making my ears bleed! The Sylvania WGT is definitely impressive. If I only got the TS I wouldn't be feeling as rewarded for the money I spent.

EDIT: Just to clarify as I'm listening, _both_ can do detail! Or, now that I've heard the Sylvania I can definitely appreciate the TS, if it makes any sense.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 9, 2017)

There you go, take your pick!
100 Vintage VT231 6SN7W TungSol Sylvania RCA Raytheon


----------



## pctazhp

All great tubes. I love wonderful pictures of tubes like these. Vacuum tube OTL amps RULE!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

That's a lot of 6sn7 to buy.


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> You know where this is leading to right? It's leading to Euforia...
> 
> Look at the Euforia's thread where I had pictures of Euforia and Elise side by side.
> 
> However I still like Elise and would certainly give my impressions of the upgraded Elise vs Euforia when I get it back and have spend some time with it.



UT, stop teasing me I have completely, definitely, absolutely no desire whatsoever to switch my Elise for some Euforia

Actually with the new drivers installed, I cannot see how this could be bettered. New headphones a la HD800S or Beyer T1 G2 would be the only reasonable upgrade. I have listened to the G2's now and verby much prefer them to the G1 version. But... They sound a little odd on certain tracks where my trusty HD600 does a better job of holding a complex passage together if that makes sense. Listened to Michael Jacksons Bad back and forth changing between them and found the T1's did not do the best of jobs. But the clarity, air and bass were superior. Kinda liked them a lot but at the same time not that much. Decisions, desicions...


----------



## mordy

oshipao said:


> UT, stop teasing me I have completely, definitely, absolutely no desire whatsoever to switch my Elise for some Euforia
> 
> Actually with the new drivers installed, I cannot see how this could be bettered. New headphones a la HD800S or Beyer T1 G2 would be the only reasonable upgrade. I have listened to the G2's now and verby much prefer them to the G1 version. But... They sound a little odd on certain tracks where my trusty HD600 does a better job of holding a complex passage together if that makes sense. Listened to Michael Jacksons Bad back and forth changing between them and found the T1's did not do the best of jobs. But the clarity, air and bass were superior. Kinda liked them a lot but at the same time not that much. Decisions, desicions...


Hi O,

An an owner of both, I can assure you that whatever the Elise has, the Euforia has more of it. It is definitively a big improvement and sounds much more full bodied and has more resolution. Even with the same tubes.....


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 9, 2017)

oshipao said:


> UT, stop teasing me I have completely, definitely, absolutely no desire whatsoever to switch my Elise for some Euforia
> 
> Actually with the new drivers installed, I cannot see how this could be bettered. New headphones a la HD800S or Beyer T1 G2 would be the only reasonable upgrade. I have listened to the G2's now and verby much prefer them to the G1 version. But... They sound a little odd on certain tracks where my trusty HD600 does a better job of holding a complex passage together if that makes sense. Listened to Michael Jacksons Bad back and forth changing between them and found the T1's did not do the best of jobs. But the clarity, air and bass were superior. Kinda liked them a lot but at the same time not that much. Decisions, desicions...



I won't tease you a la Euforia on Elise thread.

My aim is not to make Elise a sub par tube amp. It is not. I really like Elise. If I didn't I wouldn't have bothered to get it's restored to it former glory and beyond. However you know the saying. If you don't hear better gear, then you won't miss anything. So just be happy with Elise. At this price point, it is a finely crafted tube amp with minimalist and classy looks.

As for headphones, that's another matter. You know why there are so many brands, models and price right? Because you just can't please everyone with one single headphone. If all you've heard is the HD600, then you ought to be happy. However once you start to explore other HPs, as you've discovered, T1 G2 has a better kick in the bass, wider soundstage but there are other aspects of HD600 you prefer. So gradually, you will own more than one headphone. One for more delicate classical and jazz works and another for heavy metal and rock.

Personally I prefer HD800 over HD800S. Then pair it with HD650, Elear, or something else with a warmer tone.

If you already have the HD600, then yeah consider the HD800S or T1 G2..... or Utopia. 

Check out the Sony mdr z1r. It's quite an interesting sound signature too. This is Sony top of the line.


----------



## Johnnysound (Jun 10, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Quick addition after listening to Paul's Boutique and Lianne LaHavas: the TS can definitely be less offensive to the recording and paint more of a global picture. The Sylvania WGT sounds like it has more gain: a bit louder, with a very big slam, along with the precision which they flush out all the details with—kinda reminds me of the EL12 but without making my ears bleed! The Sylvania WGT is definitely impressive. If I only got the TS I wouldn't be feeling as rewarded for the money I spent.
> 
> EDIT: Just to clarify as I'm listening, _both_ can do detail! Or, now that I've heard the Sylvania I can definitely appreciate the TS, if it makes any sense.



IMHO,  this is basically a matter of synergy of the drivers with the excellent Mullard 6080.  This is a wide bandwith, highly resolving and detailed tube top to bottom, with just a touch of warmth. If you pair it with, say,  Siemens C3gs, (that have this same character in spades),  then you have maybe too much of a good thing.    Bass would be super tight and dynamic, but highs can go over the top sometimes,  and overall you got an hyper detailed sound which I personally do not like too much.  Both Sylvania WGTs and TS 6SN7s are a much better match,  but with the Mullards I would go for the Tung Sols, the good ones have that trademark house sound: not very detailed but round and bold,  a wide,  dynamic sound with spatial qualities that I value the most.  The Mullards, as good as they are (I have a pair of NOS, 65' vintage) can be a bit dry at times,  so the TS are a great match.  And you do not need over hyped and expensive ones,   for example, TS 6SN7GTB, tall bottles from the early or mid fifties are excellent tubes at very reasonable prices, ( just be sure of the vintage) as do are GTB chrome tops Sylvanias of the same era, however  with a very different sound.

 I feel that the opposite situation (detailed drivers and "mellow" powers)  is equally relevant in terms of SQ:   if you keep the drivers constant as a reference  (C3gs for example) the final flavor is given  by the powers, and  in  6AS7G territory this is a fascinating experience.   The C3g    characteristics, among them a super extended, even a bit aggresive top end, are complementary with the somewhat laid back top end of all the 6AS7Gs,  including the great 5998. This adds just the right touch of sparkle and liveness.  Of course, with the 5998 this is a stellar pair, and I was hooked. As allways happens in this hobby,  I regarded all my other 6AS7Gs (some 25 of them) as inferior to the 5998s, and decided to give them a rest, saving some hours on these VERY expensive tubes.  I replaced the 5998s with a pair of  vintage JAN Chathams that I even forgot I had, and fully expected a much inferior sound.  I was totally wrong.  Yes, the Chathams do not have quite the extension or ultimate bold and big sound of the 5998s, but are supremely sweeeeeeet tubes, with a very pleasant, relaxed,  seductive tonality that I ended enjoying a lot with all types of music.   More so than with  the 5998s.  Tired of so much resolution, perhaps ?  Lesson learned.....


----------



## UntilThen

Don't over think tube combinations. Elise will sound good regardless. Each time you power on your amp and put on the music, if you start to listen how the tubes sound, you will miss the music. 

So stop analysing and start enjoying your music.


----------



## rosgr63

UntilThen said:


> Don't over think tube combinations. Elise will sound good regardless. Each time you power on your amp and put on the music, if you start to listen how the tubes sound, you will miss the music.
> 
> So stop analysing and start enjoying your music.



Listening to music is what counts the most!!!!


----------



## angpsi (Jun 10, 2017)

rosgr63 said:


> Listening to music is what counts the most!!!!


@rosgr63!!! Sent you a pm quite some time ago! Thought you quit the game; I was really counting on your collection to gain some knowledge on tubes (before I spent a fortune on some of them)!
Good to see you back!


----------



## angpsi (Jun 10, 2017)

Johnnysound said:


> IMHO,  this is basically a matter of synergy of the drivers with the excellent Mullard 6080.  This is a wide bandwith, highly resolving and detailed tube top to bottom, with just a touch of warmth. If you pair it with, say,  Siemens C3gs, (that have this same character in spades),  then you have maybe too much of a good thing.    Bass would be super tight and dynamic, but highs can go over the top sometimes,  and overall you got an hyper detailed sound which I personally do not like too much.  Both Sylvania WGTs and TS 6SN7s are a much better match,  but with the Mullards I would go for the Tung Sols, the good ones have that trademark house sound: not very detailed but round and bold,  a wide,  dynamic sound with spatial qualities that I value the most.  The Mullards, as good as they are (I have a pair of NOS, 65' vintage) can be a bit dry at times,  so the TS are a great match.  And you do not need over hyped and expensive ones,   for example, TS 6SN7GTB, tall bottles from the early or mid fifties are excellent tubes at very reasonable prices, ( just be sure of the vintage) as do are GTB chrome tops Sylvanias of the same era, however  with a very different sound.
> 
> I feel that the opposite situation (detailed drivers and "mellow" powers)  is equally relevant in terms of SQ:  the driver should be transparent, extended, powerful in terms of a solid flow of current,  if any because 6AS7Gs are designed for that,  and  if you keep the drivers constant as a reference  (C3gs for example) the final flavor is given definitely by the powers.   In  6AS7G territory this is a fascinating experience.   The merits  of the C3g "per se" are irrelevant here,  it is not even a "true" triode,  and probably there are many other tubes that "sound" better, but as a driver of vintage, "coke bottle" 6AS7Gs it is just exceptional.    Its characteristics, among them a super extended, even a bit aggresive top end, are absolutely complementary with the somewhat laid back top end of all the 6AS7Gs,  including the great 5998. This adds just the right touch of sparkle and liveness.  Of course, with the 5998 this is a stellar pair, and I was hooked. As allways happens in this hobby,  I regarded all my other 6AS7Gs (some 25 of them) as inferior to the 5998, but finally decided to give them a rest, saving some hours on these VERY expensive tubes.  I replaced the 5998s with a pair of  vintage JAN Chathams that I even forgot I had, and fully expected a much inferior sound.  I was totally wrong.  Yes, the Chathams do not have quite the extension or ultimate bold and big sound of the 5998s, but are supremely sweeeeeeet tubes, with a very pleasant, relaxed,  seductive tonality that I ended enjoying a lot with all types of music.   More so than with  the 5998s.  Tired of so much resolution, perhaps ?  Lesson learned.....


Hi @Johnnysound, don't listen to UT he's still lost in his Yggdrasil fueled Euforia riding his "buy one get two audio treasures" bargain HD800s!

Though I haven't tried the 6sn7 with an 6as7, I couldn't agree more on your description of the sound signature of my recently acquired tubes. Of course I only heard them for a day, but indeed I thought the TS were a more 'coherent' match to the Mullard 6080. Still, the wgt are far more impressive and, come Monday, I'll be sure to match them with my stock Svetlana 6S13N. Unfortunately I don't have any other 6as7 to compare.

My knowledge is still growing, along with my tubes collection. Thankfully most people generally share a consensus about which of these tubes are worth pursuing, and this accumulated knowledge is very helpful for us new buyers to spend our (to my detriment, limited) funds!

Unless I shared @UntilThen's unlimited resources and talent to strike a bargain deal, in which case I'd go for the stars!


----------



## UntilThen

Heh    Addicted To Audio has bargains all the time. Look at their price now for HD800S .... yes the S version... going for AUD$1499 which is US$1128. How cheap is that? I got mine HD800 for AUD$1284. That makes the 2 versions about $200 aussie dollars difference. So @angpsi  send me your money and I'll buy the HD800S for you, test it out on my Euforia and then shipped it to you. How's that? We could do that with the Utopia too.... or the Abyss 

https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/prod...zZal5dW3q2nMrEtoFSheE-mEqQoPh0IvkYRoCA5bw_wcB

As for my talent in making a deal. My only talent is making the right connections. So I suggest you talk to @rosgr63 and see if he has anymore tubes to sell to you. When I'm done with 6sn7 and 6as7, I can sell you mine.


----------



## UntilThen

OMG, the HD800 drop to AUD$999. I bought at AUD$1284 3 weeks ago..... why oh why oh why oh why didn't I wait for End Of Financial year sale. Why?

https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/coll...oducts/sennheiser-hd800-audiophile-headphones


----------



## UntilThen

Hello @angpsi  buy these. 

https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/coll...tudio-six-set-vacuum-tube-headphone-amplifier

or

https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/prod...c-headphone-amp?ref=isp_rel_prd&isp_ref_pos=4

No waiting for a year. Just pay and take it home.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 10, 2017)

_When I find myself in times of trouble
tube amp Elise comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be, let it be.

And when the broken hearted people in this thread disagree,
there will be tube rolling, let it be, let it be.

For though they may be disillusioned, there will be a tube that they will seek
There will be an answer, let it be, let it be._


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Hello @angpsi  buy these.
> 
> https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/coll...tudio-six-set-vacuum-tube-headphone-amplifier
> 
> ...


Oh, wow. And I can do installments too! https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/pages/zipmoney


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> _When I find myself in times of trouble
> tube amp Elise comes to me
> Speaking words of wisdom, let it be, let it be.
> 
> ...


Laughing my guts out!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Laughing my guts out!



Ain't I a genius? I didn't know I can compose.


----------



## UntilThen

Who said this?

_“There are not more than five musical notes, yet the combinations of these five give rise to more melodies than can ever be heard. 

There are not more than five primary colours, yet in combination
they produce more hues than can ever been seen.

There are not more than five cardinal tastes, yet combinations of
them yield more flavours than can ever be tasted.” 
_


----------



## UntilThen

Next question.

What are the five musical notes?


----------



## rosgr63

angpsi said:


> @rosgr63!!! Sent you a pm quite some time ago! Thought you quit the game; I was really counting on your collection to gain some knowledge on tubes (before I spent a fortune on some of them)!
> Good to see you back!



My apologies with the new system update I got lost.
Quit headphones after 50 year of listening?


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Roger,

Ang and I were discussing Vinyl vs CD on the Euforia thread. 

I was blown away that my budget turntable sounded better than my Yggy rig. My opinion of course. Sounds more organic, warm and relaxing with HD800 and Euforia.


----------



## rosgr63

UntilThen said:


> Hi Roger,
> 
> Ang and I were discussing Vinyl vs CD on the Euforia thread.
> 
> I was blown away that my budget turntable sounded better than my Yggy rig. My opinion of course. Sounds more organic, warm and relaxing with HD800 and Euforia.



I haven't used my vinyl set up for almost 20 years now, the convenience of digital has won me over.
I digitised my vinyls and never looked back.
I know it's not the right way to go.
Don't forget a Vinyl Washing Machine is a top priority if you are going to listen to old vinyls.


----------



## UntilThen

rosgr63 said:


> Don't forget a Vinyl Washing Machine is a top priority if you are going to listen to old vinyls.



Not a problem. My washing machine takes care of that. 

Oh my LPs are tip top new.


----------



## rosgr63

Some of my LP's are 70's dated I still have them.


----------



## angpsi

rosgr63 said:


> My apologies with the new system update I got lost.
> Quit headphones after 50 year of listening?


System upgrade? I'm intrigued! Offer for coffee still stands?


----------



## rosgr63

Some of my systems are less than 5years old so no need to upgrade yet. 
Yes we'll make some arrangements maybe when Glenn comes over.


----------



## UntilThen

rosgr63 said:


> Some of my systems are less than 5years old so no need to upgrade yet.
> Yes we'll make some arrangements maybe when Glenn comes over.



Can I come? This looks like a party I don't want to miss.


----------



## UntilThen

Hey Roger, pop over here. Save me from switching from one thread to another. Hot debate going on there.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-197#post-13539782


----------



## rosgr63

You are most welcome!!!!!
Every time Glenn comes over I learn so much about Audio, it's like I know nothing.
Not to mention the little experiments he does which I find fascinating


----------



## angpsi

rosgr63 said:


> Some of my systems are less than 5years old so no need to upgrade yet.
> Yes we'll make some arrangements maybe when Glenn comes over.





UntilThen said:


> Can I come? This looks like a party I don't want to miss.


Cool @rosgr63, no pressure. Maybe wait for UT to come from Australia; if he takes the boat I'm sure your Glenn amp will be with you and all burned in by the time he gets here!


----------



## angpsi

rosgr63 said:


> You are most welcome!!!!!
> Every time Glenn comes over I learn so much about Audio, it's like I know nothing.
> Not to mention the little experiments he does which I find fascinating


Oh, wait—you mean Glenn Glenn, not Glenn amp?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Cool @rosgr63, no pressure. Maybe wait for UT to come from Australia; if he takes the boat I'm sure your Glenn amp will be with you and all burned in by the time he gets here!



I was hoping to hear @whirlwind  new Glenn's amp. A custom made EL3N tube amp is sure interesting.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Oh, wait—you mean Glenn Glenn, not Glenn amp?



Yeah... Roger is not getting a new amp. He has too many of Glenn's amp already and ED Balancing Act and what nots....


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 11, 2017)

Some preliminary findings on GEC 6080 vs Mullard 6080 vs Bendix 6080wb.

First of all, these days my test of tubes are done in a different way from the past. Whereas previously, I would go back and forth quickly after each song, now I would use the tubes for a few days then switch. I find that a longer listening session with the tubes is better for picking out differences and not having to slot the tubes in and out of my amp so frequently. For this test, my gear setup is :-

Onkyo > Yggy > Euforia > HD800.

I use the same drivers throughout. Sylvania 6sn7wgt brown base.

GEC 6080
Has a larger presence and more holographic. The soundstage expanded compared to Mullard. FR is more linear though. There is no emphasis on treble, mid or bass. It's just linear throughout. It is more textured and at the same time has an airy quality to the tone - always in comparison to Mullard. It is neither forward nor recessed but a good presentation of musicians on the stage with very good instruments separation. I wouldn't classify the GEC as warm or bright. There might be a very slight slant toward warmness, nothing more to it.

Mullard 6080
Sound is more focused and narrower in the the stage. Being narrower, it is also more defined and prominent. This tube is an enigma. While there is a hint of warmness, it is the brightness and energy that stood out for me. Suuup ask me once what tubes to use to brighten up a very dark song. I told him to use C3G and Mullard 6080. This is still true in my opinion today.

Bendix 6080wb
The most notable traits about the Bendix is the weighty tone and bass. Now this might seem like it's lacking in the other department such as the top. That's not true. It is a revealing tube. The weight and bass comes in good quality dosage. Nice wide soundstage. Texture and a hint of warmness.

With my system that is very revealing (DAC and headphone) Sylvania 6sn7wgt with any of these power tubes makes for a very enjoyable listening session.

In terms of preference:-

Bendix - GEC ----------- Mullard.

You can see from the position that I have the GEC almost touching the Bendix, with the Mullard further behind. That is how I would rank them. YMMV.

Edit:- Here's a problem. Having spend some considerable time with all 3 power tubes, I'm less eager to slot in the Mullard. It's usually a choice between the GEC and Bendix.


----------



## angpsi

Johnnysound said:


> IMHO,  this is basically a matter of synergy of the drivers with the excellent Mullard 6080.  This is a wide bandwith, highly resolving and detailed tube top to bottom, with just a touch of warmth. If you pair it with, say,  Siemens C3gs, (that have this same character in spades),  then you have maybe too much of a good thing.    Bass would be super tight and dynamic, but highs can go over the top sometimes,  and overall you got an hyper detailed sound which I personally do not like too much.  Both Sylvania WGTs and TS 6SN7s are a much better match,  but with the Mullards I would go for the Tung Sols, the good ones have that trademark house sound: not very detailed but round and bold,  a wide,  dynamic sound with spatial qualities that I value the most.  The Mullards, as good as they are (I have a pair of NOS, 65' vintage) can be a bit dry at times,  so the TS are a great match.  And you do not need over hyped and expensive ones,   for example, TS 6SN7GTB, tall bottles from the early or mid fifties are excellent tubes at very reasonable prices, ( just be sure of the vintage) as do are GTB chrome tops Sylvanias of the same era, however  with a very different sound.
> 
> I feel that the opposite situation (detailed drivers and "mellow" powers)  is equally relevant in terms of SQ:   if you keep the drivers constant as a reference  (C3gs for example) the final flavor is given  by the powers, and  in  6AS7G territory this is a fascinating experience.   The C3g    characteristics, among them a super extended, even a bit aggresive top end, are complementary with the somewhat laid back top end of all the 6AS7Gs,  including the great 5998. This adds just the right touch of sparkle and liveness.  Of course, with the 5998 this is a stellar pair, and I was hooked. As allways happens in this hobby,  I regarded all my other 6AS7Gs (some 25 of them) as inferior to the 5998s, and decided to give them a rest, saving some hours on these VERY expensive tubes.  I replaced the 5998s with a pair of  vintage JAN Chathams that I even forgot I had, and fully expected a much inferior sound.  I was totally wrong.  Yes, the Chathams do not have quite the extension or ultimate bold and big sound of the 5998s, but are supremely sweeeeeeet tubes, with a very pleasant, relaxed,  seductive tonality that I ended enjoying a lot with all types of music.   More so than with  the 5998s.  Tired of so much resolution, perhaps ?  Lesson learned.....



Hi @Johnnysound, @HPLobster et al.,

Fate got me at the office on a Sunday evening; at least I got some extra time with the Elise since Friday and I immediately jumped on the opportunity to play the WGT with the Svetlana 6S13N. Although it immediately felt like the WGT needed a gutsier 6as7g, the sound was undoubtedly more coherent, with great air, separation, and detail. I think the Svetlanas add a bit of reverberation in the sound making the overall image feel more transparent, but compared to the Mullard 6080 the end result is somewhat unimpressive. Usual routine: Gene Ammons, Paul's boutique, Solti's Beethoven 9th.

I don't think I like this combo. After I post this I'll switch to the Mullard. Having said that, I see how the Psvane complement the character of the Svetlana to give Feliks' stock sound: airy, effortless, lush.

I wonder how the GEC will fare with my new drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

The GEC will sound gold like what I described above but I'm running Psvane with Bendix 6080wb now to get even more warm and lushness which is great with Yggy and I've drop back to modded HD650 for that smokey joint bar sound.


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> I don't think I like this combo. After I post this I'll switch to the Mullard. Having said that, I see how the Psvane complement the character of the Svetlana to give Feliks' stock sound: airy, effortless, lush.



Oh wow. Mullards are on; foot tapping as I'm listening to Hiromi's "Kung-Fu World Champion". I see how I needed to pay for my education.


----------



## UntilThen

Found Hiromi on Tidal and am using HD650 now to darken the tone a lil'. Sounds like electronic jazz to me.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Found Hiromi on Tidal and am using HD650 now to darken the tone a lil'. Sounds like electronic jazz to me.


Ya, she's crazy! I can see Bruce Lee fighting the Dragon as I listen to this! Her other tunes are more mellow though...


----------



## angpsi

This is much more standards stuff - I love her "Live in Marciac"!


----------



## UntilThen

It's 4am here and I prefer some smokey blues or a singer with a deep deep voice. I'm listening to Leonard Cohen now. 'In My Secret Life'   I even got Citizenlin to like this song.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> It's 4am here and I prefer some smokey blues or a singer with a deep deep voice. I'm listening to Leonard Cohen now. 'In My Secret Life'   I even got Citizenlin to like this song.


Then the Gene Ammons album should suit you just lovely!
https://tidal.com/album/3969072
If you got the fancy JVC version I post in the picture that follows even better!


----------



## angpsi

Other notable additions to my proposal:

Donald Byrd / Fuego: https://tidal.com/album/1389333
Lee Konitz & Martial Solal / Impressive Rome (no Tidal here I'm afraid)
Anything with Mingus
For the full smokey jazz club experience there's the obvious audiophile classic: Arne Domnerus / Jazz at the Pawnshop: https://tidal.com/album/8102445


----------



## angpsi

Man, how cool is that cover!


----------



## angpsi (Jun 11, 2017)

I also can't get over how ridiculously separated the instruments are in these recordings! Obviously it makes sense in stereo reproduction but for headphones it's quite crazy!

E.g. here: https://tidal.com/album/2797490, albeit this album is sure to sound crazy good on vinyl...


----------



## Oskari (Jun 11, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Ya, she's crazy! I can see Bruce Lee fighting the Dragon as I listen to this! Her other tunes are more mellow though...



That was some weird sh¡te!


angpsi said:


> This is much more standards stuff - I love her "Live in Marciac"!



But this was awesome! I especially loved the classical part from 36:22 on.


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> I won't tease you a la Euforia on Elise thread.
> 
> My aim is not to make Elise a sub par tube amp. It is not. I really like Elise. If I didn't I wouldn't have bothered to get it's restored to it former glory and beyond. However you know the saying. If you don't hear better gear, then you won't miss anything. So just be happy with Elise. At this price point, it is a finely crafted tube amp with minimalist and classy looks.
> 
> ...



Thanks UT,

Should have been some emojis present in the first sentence But they disappeared.

Btw, I am not going to keep the ECC32 tubes. Even the volume knob got too hot for my taste. So I am back to 6SN7 again and will never look for another model of drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> Thanks UT,
> 
> Should have been some emojis present in the first sentence But they disappeared.
> 
> Btw, I am not going to keep the ECC32 tubes. Even the volume knob got too hot for my taste. So I am back to 6SN7 again and will never look for another model of drivers.



Amen to that. Long live 6sn7. It's all you need.


----------



## UntilThen

@oshipao  are you using your turntable as source to Elise?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Then the Gene Ammons album should suit you just lovely!
> https://tidal.com/album/3969072
> If you got the fancy JVC version I post in the picture that follows even better!



Hello ? I'm down to my last penny. No more fancy pansy JVC xrcd version. I do have a few JVC xrcd though.


----------



## Oskari

Jambalaya

This is a Feliks thread classic. If this doesn't make your toes tap, there might be something wrong with your toes.


----------



## UntilThen

All beautiful renditions, esp Karen Carpenters.


----------



## pctazhp

Love them all. this is another FA classic version


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> @oshipao  are you using your turntable as source to Elise?



Ofcourse  Although sometimes I use my DacMagic when I need to listen to Spotify.


----------



## UntilThen

Check out the Euforia's thread. I posted there that out of vinyl, CD and Tidal HiFi ( the latter 2 via Yggdrasil $2299 DAC), I prefer the vinyl sound from my budget Denon DP300F turntable.

.... and I just snack one GEC 6as7g (used in good condition) for $82 and one Chatham 6080wb (used but in good condition - solid graphite plates) for $33.


----------



## UntilThen

Hello folks, check out the mother of all sale here. 
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-203#post-13541387


----------



## HPLobster

Enjoying this very much....thank you @angpsi 
Gumby>PsVane6SN7>Valvo6080>HD800 --> delightful


----------



## UntilThen

Listen to Hiromi too long and you will get tinnitus.


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys,

I got in touch with the seller @HPLobster got his green TS 5998 pair from. Unfortunately I was hit with an unexpected case of bad manners for a seller with so many satisfied customers. The dialogue goes like this (I'm copying and pasting here—and of course there's full record of the exchange):


> [me] _Hi, what's the difference between the pair with the green print and the pair with the grey print (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Matched-P...Plate-Tung-Sol-USA-Valve-Tubes/112430492316)? Different vintage? Any sonic differences between the two?
> _
> [valvetubesonline] Some of the green printed once are with black plate. If you considering purchasing, please read the description before placing an order. Regards, Kef
> 
> ...



What do you think guys? Is my english comprehension failing me? Langrex was exceptionally professional with a similar inquiry so I can definitely compare. I'm still interested in the tubes but the attitude turns me off...


----------



## oshipao

If anyone would be interested in some tubes for your Elise/Euforia I have put up some in the sale forum: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...-tung-sol-6as7g-ken-rad-vt-231-6sn7gt.852621/


----------



## UntilThen

Hi @angpsi  a little advice from me. Not all sellers are friendly. Likewise not all friendly sellers are good when it comes to returns due to tube failing. Some sellers are in this game for a long time. They've been asked such questions since dinosaurs rule the earth. Some sellers just don't know enough to tell you. Some will list it as tested good like NOS but without any test results.

That doesn't mean that the tubes are bad. Having bought many tubes and just looking at the pictures, the green ones looks pretty good to me. Returns allowed so you're covered. I'd say if you're after 5998, just buy it.

As I said previously, green or white lettering, it doesn't matter. Just get a reasonably new pair to last a long time. Both pairs looks quite new to me but the green looks to be in better condition.

Good luck. You're buying an important tube for Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> If anyone would be interested in some tubes for your Elise/Euforia I have put up some in the sale forum: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/t...-tung-sol-6as7g-ken-rad-vt-231-6sn7gt.852621/



Oshipao, you've only got one Ken Rad, if you've a pair, I'll buy from you.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Hi @angpsi  a little advice from me. Not all sellers are friendly. Likewise not all friendly sellers are good when it comes to returns due to tube failing. Some sellers are in this game for a long time. They've been asked such questions since dinosaurs rule the earth. Some sellers just don't know enough to tell you. Some will list it as tested good like NOS but without any test results.
> 
> That doesn't mean that the tubes are bad. Having bought many tubes and just looking at the pictures, the green ones looks pretty good to me. Returns allowed so you're covered. I'd say if you're after 5998, just buy it.
> 
> ...


I bit the bullet... Now @HPLobster and me can be comrades in Tung-Sol 5998.


----------



## HPLobster

angpsi said:


> I bit the bullet... Now @HPLobster and me can be comrades in Tung-Sol 5998.



Nice  Congrats!!! Don´t worry, I have a good feeling about them


----------



## HPLobster (Jun 13, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> No worries next time I'll recommend you to buy light bulbs.
> 
> My GEC 6080 has just been dispatch from New Zealand.
> 
> ...




One last question concerning the neverending Sylvania-classification - I have to ask since all info I can find is based on the WGT*B*-Chrome top...:

JAN 6SN7WGTA-chrome top or JAN-CHS-6SN7W-chrome top ??? The latter should be the better purchase or do I misread @UntilThen ´s  post?


----------



## angpsi

HPLobster said:


> Nice  Congrats!!! Don´t worry, I have a good feeling about them


Fingers crossed! In truth, I went way beyond my spending budget for these because I'd already spend substantially for the GEC 6080. But both cases seemed like a good deal and I didn't want to miss out...


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I bit the bullet... Now @HPLobster and me can be comrades in Tung-Sol 5998.



5998 can be a bit too energetic for some. So be prepared to counter it with headphones or drivers. I find on Elise, Sylvania 6sn7gtb and TS 5998 with HD650 hits the sweet spot.


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> Oshipao, you've only got one Ken Rad, if you've a pair, I'll buy from you.



Sorry UT 

One of them was broken when recieved.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> 5998 can be a bit too energetic for some. So be prepared to counter it with headphones or drivers. I find on Elise, Sylvania 6sn7gtb and TS 5998 with HD650 hits the sweet spot.


_Now_ you're telling me?!? So I also got to buy another set of drivers _and_ a new set of headphones???


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> Check out the Euforia's thread. I posted there that out of vinyl, CD and Tidal HiFi ( the latter 2 via Yggdrasil $2299 DAC), I prefer the vinyl sound from my budget Denon DP300F turntable.
> 
> .... and I just snack one GEC 6as7g (used in good condition) for $82 and one Chatham 6080wb (used but in good condition - solid graphite plates) for $33.



I will do that tonight UT 

Great find UT. Now you only need to source another one of each  A pair of GEC 6AS7G or GEC 6080 would sure be nice to have. What do you think of the 6080WB? I have trouble accepting 20-30 mins of "ping!" noise at warm up. But otherwise I feel that they sing beautifully, especially with the Ken-Rads.


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> I will do that tonight UT
> 
> Great find UT. Now you only need to source another one of each  A pair of GEC 6AS7G or GEC 6080 would sure be nice to have. What do you think of the 6080WB? I have trouble accepting 20-30 mins of "ping!" noise at warm up. But otherwise I feel that they sing beautifully, especially with the Ken-Rads.



I already have a pair of Bendix 6080wb and another NOS pair of GEC 6as7g incoming. These single ones will act as backups. 

I don't have to warm up the 6080wb for 20 - 30 mins. Mine warm up in 2 mins. I train it.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 13, 2017)

HPLobster said:


> One last question concerning the neverending Sylvania-classification - I have to ask since all info I can find is based on the WGT*B*-Chrome top...:
> 
> JAN 6SN7WGTA-chrome top or JAN-CHS-6SN7W-chrome top ??? The latter should be the better purchase or do I misread @UntilThen ´s  post?



You're confused indeed.

Let me just narrow it down to 3 Sylvania 6sn7s for you, even though there are more variations. Let's keep it simple for you.

So the 3 are:-

Sylvania 6sn7w
This is simply called that, even though it has the chrome top. The chrome is implied. This tube is supposed to be the lieutenant to Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plate. It commands respect and your wallet. Beware though, the top end is very revealing so are the other frequency range. The hype is justified. This is a very good 6sn7.

Sylvania 6sn7wgt
This is the one with brown base. The wgt signifies that it's a rugged tube made for the military. Amongst all the Sylvania, this is the least bright. Generally I consider Sylvania 6sn7s bright but in a a good way. Like a bright Autumn's day. It lifts Winter's gloom, that's another way of putting it. Anyway back to these brown base. Less bright, drier tone, wide soundstage, pretty solid bass, a tone that is more opaque than transparent. If I need to dial down on the brightness in my system, I'd use this driver. A more extreme version would be the RCA 6sn7gt vt231 smoke glass. The brown base is no where near the warm and lushness of the RCA. I'm describing the RCA so you get an idea.

Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top
Now this is the gtb version and often tag with the chrome top labelling even though most Sylvanias have chrome top. The gtb are the latest incarnations of 6sn7 and is the most widely available and cheapest. It is very good value though. Tung Sol, Raytheon 6sn7gtb can be gotten quite cheaply and still sound very good. Try them.

Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231 bad boys
I'll throw this in too because this is a very sought after tube. Suppose to be very good sounding and rank after the 6sn7w. These could have 2 or 3 holes black plates.

There you go. I'll try and talk about the other brands 6sn7 another day.

Ps... gtb takes the shortest time to warm up. So this is a plus.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Fingers crossed! In truth, I went way beyond my spending budget for these because I'd already spend substantially for the GEC 6080. But both cases seemed like a good deal and I didn't want to miss out...



Don't worry apsi. You have 2 of my fav power tubes. The 5998 and Gec 6080.

The other 2 that makes up my quad favourites are - Gec 6as7g and Bendix 6080wb.

Once you've these 4, you're close to the 5th element...... which is basically a light bulb.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> _Now_ you're telling me?!? So I also got to buy another set of drivers _and_ a new set of headphones???



Your ears could be different from mine. What I consider energetic, you might consider it moonlight serenade.

Get some 6sn7s with varying tones. Some bright, some warm and some in between. Do the same with the power tubes. Your combinations then will be greater than the Rubik's cube.


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> I already have a pair of Bendix 6080wb and another NOS pair of GEC 6as7g incoming. These single ones will act as backups.
> 
> I don't have to warm up the 6080wb for 20 - 30 mins. Mine warm up in 2 mins. I train it.



Aha! I see  Maybe I should do the same with mine


----------



## UntilThen

oshipao said:


> Aha! I see  Maybe I should do the same with mine



Huh? How many Gec 6as7g and Bendix 6080wb have you got? Don't tell me you've been stockpiling?


----------



## UntilThen

Here I have Sylvania 6sn7w and Tung Sol 5998. This is a serious combination. It has x-ray's powers. It will help your grand-ma see clearly. Trust me. If your car windscreen needs cleaning, stick these tubes on it.


----------



## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> You're confused indeed.
> 
> Let me just narrow it down to 3 Sylvania 6sn7s for you, even though there are more variations. Let's keep it simple for you.
> 
> ...



Thanks UT, and thank you for narrowing it down to three 4 variations 
I´ll keep it even simpler, since I still haven´t found anything on the 6sb7gt*a *

This:
 

or this:

 


I´m buying the wgt-brownbase anyway...


----------



## UntilThen

In contrast, this is much more relaxing. This is a very good relaxing tone. If you're stressed, you should use these tubes. It will de-stress you better than a sexy psychologist. So this is the 2nd in the series of my current favourite combinations. The 1st being the one above.


----------



## HPLobster

AH, I see, you have the lower ones in your system, but those black base ones are 6sn7W, not gtb.... now my confusion clears up a little at last....


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 13, 2017)

Ok Lobster, between the Sylvania 6sn7wgta and 6sn7w, obviously the 6sn7w is the better tube.

6sn7gta comes after 6sn7gt. So chronologically... 6sn7gt > 6sn7gta > 6sn7gtb. Then some smart army alex decides that they need the 'w' in there for rugged military usage.

So they introduced 6sn7wgt > 6sn7wgta.... there's no 6sn7wgtb though because gtb are really for the farmers and not aristocrats.


----------



## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> Ok Lobster, between the Sylvania 6sn7wgta and 6sn7w, obviously the 6sn7w is the better tube.
> 
> 6sn7gta comes after 6sn7gt. So chronologically... 6sn7gt > 6sn7gta > 6sn7gtb. Then some smart army alex decides that they need the 'w' in there for rugged military usage.
> 
> So they introduced 6sn7wgt > 6sn7wgta.... there's no 6sn7wgtb though because gtb are really for the farmers and not aristocrats.



Great!


----------



## UntilThen

Good, after nearly 2 pages of posts, I'm glad you can see clearly now. That song is great !


----------



## HPLobster

UntilThen said:


> Good, after nearly 2 pages of posts, I'm glad you can see clearly now. That song is great !



Oh, that´s ok...but next time, be a little more precise please...

Thank you for your help, UT....and very nice pictures btw


----------



## HPLobster

HPLobster said:


> Oh, that´s ok...but next time, be a little more precise please...
> 
> Thank you for your help, UT....and very nice pictures btw



I bought the pair of 6sn7w from the picture above...they are from California, so it´ll take them a while to alight on my Elise...


----------



## HPLobster

I´m glad I´ll be away for three weeks in July.... need to recover from tube-spending


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Your ears could be different from mine. What I consider energetic, you might consider it moonlight serenade.
> 
> Get some 6sn7s with varying tones. Some bright, some warm and some in between. Do the same with the power tubes. Your combinations then will be greater than the Rubik's cube.


I was never any good with Rubik's cube... Thank God I could draw!


----------



## angpsi

HPLobster said:


> I´m glad I´ll be away for three weeks in July.... need to recover from tube-spending


Lobster, I sympathise! When I first realized how much I had spent on my EL shopping spree I was baffled! To think that I originally considered opting for the Elise over Espressivo overspending my budget! And now here I am, shopping for top budget tubes once again, albeit this time they're sanctioned and within official specification!


----------



## angpsi

HPLobster said:


> I bought the pair of 6sn7w from the picture above...they are from California, so it´ll take them a while to alight on my Elise...


If you _really_ wanted to get a fix for overspending, then you should have gotten these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sylvania-...crome-top-tube-NOS-OB-1944-1945-/162530665398

NOS / OB... What beauties!


----------



## oshipao

UntilThen said:


> Huh? How many Gec 6as7g and Bendix 6080wb have you got? Don't tell me you've been stockpiling?



Haha! Nope, sorry. No GEC yet, and I probably never will with the prices today. But I have a pair of Bendix. Maybe I will hold on to these, do not know yet.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Ok Lobster, between the Sylvania 6sn7wgta and 6sn7w, obviously the 6sn7w is the better tube.
> 
> 6sn7gta comes after 6sn7gt. So chronologically... 6sn7gt > 6sn7gta > 6sn7gtb. Then some smart army alex decides that they need the 'w' in there for rugged military usage.
> 
> So they introduced 6sn7wgt > 6sn7wgta.... there's no 6sn7wgtb though because gtb are really for the farmers and not aristocrats.


Hi UT,

Thanks for the good laugh...
6SN7 _gtb are really for the farmers and not aristocrats_.

The only difference between the GTA and the GTB is that the GTB warms up quicker - no difference in sound.
ATM I am listening to an excellent GTB but I will not reveal my bargain sleeper find until I buy up all of them! Angpsi - I paid $8 for my pair incl. shipping.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> I will not reveal my bargain sleeper find until I buy up all of them!


Do you know how many were made?


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Thanks for the good laugh...
> 6SN7 _gtb are really for the farmers and not aristocrats_.
> ...


OK - bought another pair for $20 incl shipping this time.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,

All right, I am ready to reveal everything now. The pair I bought looks like the one above, so I assume that it was made by NEC. A little background and ramblings:

Here is another sleeper IMHO that is very well worth trying: A Japanese made 6SN7 tube from the late 50's(?).







In general, Japanese tubes from the 50's and 60's are very well made. Matsushiita made a deal with Philips in 1952 and started to make tubes using equipment sourced from Philips (think Mullard). There were only a handful of Japanese makers (Matsushiita, Ten, Hitachi, Toshiba, NEC etc), and cross branding was common.

The NEC above was sold under the brand Channel Master in North America. Could not find any NEC tubes listed for sale, but there are a couple of Channel Master 6SN7GTB available.

The sound is very good and the price is right. A rich, full, balanced, slightly darkish sound.

The date codes I have are F90 and J90. My guess is that the first letter is the month, so I used my fingers to figure it out (even though you may need 12 fingers instead of 10). F=June; J=Sept or Oct (maybe they skipped I so as not to confuse with the number 1 ?).

Then the 9 which could be 1959 or 1969 - I vote for 1959. Don't know what the 0 stands for - I am sure Oskari can help and correct me if I am wrong.

OK, I have been listening to these for a while now, and they definitively have that UK British sound, whatever that is, but truly nice sound with a very even FR and an expansive sound stage!

Back in my early tube days we used single triodes as drivers in the Little Dot MKIII. By rigging an adapter you could use a single dual triode tube to run the R&L channel. I bought whatever inexpensive lots of 6SN7 I could find, and this Channel Master was in one lot. Since we only used a single tube it was possible to concentrate on the sound of each dual triode, and I rated this tube very high.

The other day I rediscovered it in my 6SN7 box and decided to look for a second tube - found an inexpensive mate for it on eBay. 

Have no idea how many were made, but you can find them on eBay for $10 and up as of today.

ATM running the Channel Master/NEC with the GEC (NEC-GEC rhymes, no?). Very nice.

Have fun!


----------



## Oskari (Jun 13, 2017)

mordy said:


> The NEC above was sold under the brand Channel Master in North America. Could not find any NEC tubes listed for sale, but there are a couple of Channel Master 6SN7GTB available.
> 
> The sound is very good and the price is right. A rich, full, balanced, slightly darkish sound.
> 
> ...



Please don't be so sure! 

Another lovely Japanese tube is the Hitachi 6SN7GTB with the black plates (ITT rebrands are not uncommon).

We really should keep this knowledge to ourselves.


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Thanks for the good laugh...
> 6SN7 _gtb are really for the farmers and not aristocrats_.
> ...


OK - bought another pair for $20 incl shipping this time.










Oskari said:


> Please don't be so sure!
> 
> Another lovely Japanese tube is the Hitachi 6SN7GTB with the black plates (ITT rebrands are not uncommon).
> 
> We really should keep this knowledge to yourselves.


Hi Oskari,

And for the cognoscenti - the TFK 6SN7GTB ......Let's see if you can figure that one out.....


----------



## angpsi

Is it the moon, or an alignment of the planets that makes us spend like crazy these days? I just had to bid—and win—this auction!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-2-x-T...231-Vacuum-Tube-Valvo-Rohre-NOS-/302341984550
Sylvania 6sn7w come to me!


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Thanks for the good laugh...
> 6SN7 _gtb are really for the farmers and not aristocrats_.
> ...


@mordy I need to start listening to you more or I'll end up divorced!


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> @mordy I need to start listening to you more or I'll end up divorced!


I don't tell my wife how much I spend on the tubes lol.

"Honey, how come you have so many of those glass things?"


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 13, 2017)

Oskari said:


> Another lovely Japanese tube is the Hitachi 6SN7GTB with the black plates (ITT rebrands are not uncommon).
> 
> We really should keep this knowledge to ourselves.



That's why I say that the gtb are for farmers and not for aristocrats. If I say the gtb are for kings, then they will be snapped up in a jiffy. So don't let the secret out that the gtb though cheap, are really good sounding 6sn7.

However, you're picking up a piece of tube history when you buy 6sn7w. They are for mermaids. Congrats @HPLobster  and @angpsi , sorry for your wallet.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the RCA 6sn7gt vt231 smoke glass. At one stage, I didn't like it. I find it very warm, lush, even a bit dark, with bass a bit prominent at the expense of a lopped off high end. However, now with a more revealing Yggy and very revealing HD800, I find this combination very useful again. It balances the sound out very well. It is very organic now and still very revealing.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Is it the moon, or an alignment of the planets that makes us spend like crazy these days? I just had to bid—and win—this auction!
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-2-x-T...231-Vacuum-Tube-Valvo-Rohre-NOS-/302341984550
> Sylvania 6sn7w come to me!



Wow that's a very good price for a pair of NOS 6sn7w. You're becoming an expert at spotting bargains.


----------



## Gjoel

I have been enjoying my new UK-6SN7 for a little over a week now. I find em' go very well with my HEX.

I'm using Auralic Aries mini as source and DAC connected to my Elise. im looking for my next upgrade, and was wondering where i would get the best upgrade for the penny.
If any have some experience with Auralic or just some good ideas, its more than welcome!

1- Buy a Schiit Modi Multibit, instead of using the internal dac in Aries, maybe another used dac..

2- Buy a new PSU, either Auralics own LPS or maybe this http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hi-fi...ulated-power-supply-16v-25a-60va-p-11972.html or maybe just a IFI ipower 15v for 50$

I'm using it in a bedroom setup, so don't have room for very large DAC, like Gungnir, and would like to use max 400 EUR


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 13, 2017)

Hello @Gjoel  it depends on how bright or warm your system is sounding now. Mimby (Modi Multibit) from the many users impressions I've read, is that it follows Yggy's strength of revelation... ie it is very revealing. I'm speculating of course but I believe the addition of Mimby, will bring about a much better change than the DAC in the Auralic Aries Mini... moreso than adding a new PSU.

If on the other hand, you need to dial in more warmth, than a used Bimby or my ex-DAC - the NAD d1050, will be a better choice. 

Eventually though you will get a LPS for the Mini. Everyone seems to do that. It's the fashion.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> And for the cognoscenti - the TFK 6SN7GTB ......Let's see if you can figure that one out.....


Not sure I can at all...


angpsi said:


>


Those boxes are special!


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> That's why I say that the gtb are for farmers and not for aristocrats. If I say the gtb are for kings, then they will be snapped up in a jiffy. So don't let the secret out that the gtb though cheap, are really good sounding 6sn7.


I suppose the plurality of the GTBs were made for tv sets, perhaps for tv sets for the farmers.


----------



## HPLobster (Jun 13, 2017)

angpsi said:


> If you _really_ wanted to get a fix for overspending, then you should have gotten these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sylvania-...crome-top-tube-NOS-OB-1944-1945-/162530665398
> 
> NOS / OB... What beauties!




I won´t tell you how much I spend on mine ..... but at least they have the same nice U-S-anchor-emblem on them...and according to the seller they are date code matched (1945)....
Also interestingly enough they have printed "6SN7W" on top instead of "6SN7A" - I´m glad I already bought them, otherwise the confusion would never end


----------



## UntilThen

Holy jupiters Elise arrived  !!!!!


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> Not sure I can at all...
> 
> Those boxes are special!


Hi Oskari,

Remember the mystery with Siemens  tubes marked "Foreign." You were the one to identify them as Japanese made on the LD MKIII thread in the good ol' days....

According to JACmusic, the Toshiba 6SN7GTB look identical to 1960 Telefunken 6SN7GTB tubes.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Holy jupiters Elise arrived  !!!!!


Hi UT,

Finally - awaiting impressions and comparison with the Euforia!


----------



## HPLobster (Jun 13, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Holy jupiters Elise arrived  !!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Lukasz didn't tell me he's sending it. I was going to ask him when he's sending it when it show up today, much to my delight and surprise.

This is the 3rd time such a parcel arrived from Poland.

Elise gen 1
Euforia 
Elise gen 2

I'm so looking forward to comparing these 2 amps now and Yggy has 2 sets of rca outputs. Perfect.


----------



## mordy

In the July issue of Stereophile the editorial is about the renaissance in headphones and the advantages of headphones over speakers - even the T1 get a honorable mention.

I am listening now to a well recorded recording, and I have the distinct impression that instead of sitting in front of the orchestra, I am sitting_ inside_ the orchestra itself and facing the room. Is this possible?

It feels like some musicians are sitting on each side of me and some behind me. I have never experienced this before....


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> Those boxes are special!


Hi @Oskari, in what way? Are they Original Boxes?


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> I don't tell my wife how much I spend on the tubes lol.
> 
> "Honey, how come you have so many of those glass things?"


Generally speaking, non–audiophiles haven't the faintest clue as to how much our gear is worth. Yesterday I let a colleague listen through my Etymotic Hf3 via Meridian Explorer 2 / Audirvana. He was quite impressed; "quite worth it", he asserted. " So how much are these earphones then?", he went on; "around €20-25?" 

Unluckily for me, my wife has generally gotten whiff of how much these things may cost... Having said that, her wildest estimates are still 30% below the actual price tag.


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> (...)
> According to JACmusic, the Toshiba 6SN7GTB look identical to 1960 Telefunken 6SN7GTB tubes.


Now that you mention JAC Music, have you had any experience with the 7N7 that they propose as a good alternative to the 6sn7?


----------



## UntilThen

I do. 7N7 with adapters work very well and is a direct replacement for 6sn7.

I use a pair of Raytheon 7N7 - generally all 7N7 are made by Sylvania irespective of brand.

This is the only instance I'll use an adapter now.


----------



## angpsi

As I spend this morning slacking, I bumped into this very interesting read! Good to gain perspective...
https://www.head-fi.org/f/articles/the-audiophile-scene-in-a-third-world-country-fun-read.19047/


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 14, 2017)

*Elise is home !!!*

On the 7th of April 2017, Elise set sail for Poland, sick and tired after 1.5 years of extraordinary performance. I need to get her back to her former glory.

Today on the 14th June 2017, Elise came home. Like the day when she first came to me on the 25th Oct 2015. I could not believe my eyes. She is as new as when she first came, save for the infamous number Catch #22. I vow that she will not be subjected to indiscriminate tube rolling.... ever again.

Look at her..... new sockets and the underside.... light beech colour ... everything is new.... I could not believe my eyes !!! I started to get sentimental and Clint Eastwood doesn't get sentimental .... this is the Elise that changed my world and made me post like there's no tomorrow. This revival will make me post even more ... so try and stop me.... you will face my Smith and Wesson.


----------



## UntilThen

There she is in all her glory. Even the white dot that I put on the volume knob have remain as perfect as Michelangelo's creation. This is a work of art. You will never see a tube amp as beautiful as the clean, classic design. Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo and Raphael created this work of art.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 14, 2017)

There they are.... the twins. So alike in looks... I love these tube amps. I really do. Whatever thoughts that I have of selling Elise, is gone now. She and Euforia will remain in my household, taking centre stage along with Yggdrasil and HD800, T1 and HD650..... and all the minion tubes.

I want to take this moment to thank Lukasz, his pop Henryk and all members of the Feliks Audio team. From the bottom of my heart, thanks for restoring Elise to her former glory, As soon as I power her on, I knew that she will sound as good as before, if not better. Just need the burn in.

*Edit:-* Would you believe it? Both amps are pitch black quiet, with no music playing and volume to max. You don't get this quietness with tube amps but these ones are dead quiet when they are not singing.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm going to have to burn in Elise for at least 100 hours before I do an assessment of these 2 tube amps. There's a lot of similarities in the tone but clearly Euforia is the better sounding of the 2 right now. Could be due to burn in but I suspect it's much more than that. Without being prejudiced at this early stage, I'll withhold any judgement until later and you can be assured that it will be a unbiased view from me as I love both amps.

As it is, right now, listening through Elise, I knew that if this is the only amp that I have, it would have been sufficient. With the high impedance dynamic headphones that I use, I really don't need anymore amps. See I choose the headphones to go with these amps and I'm more than happy with HD800, T1 and HD650. I don't need anymore headphones.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,

I do not have any experience with the 7N7, but I read that people like it. I am a little bit allergic to buying more adapters, but may decide to look into it at a later date.

For now I am trying to dig up interesting 6SN7 variants (but only if the price is right). I also have a box of different bargain 6SN7s so I am going to start there. Not that many pairs, but mainly a bunch of single tubes; RCA, Sylvania, Tung Sol, Raytheon. Many are re-branded with names like Zenith, Capeheart, Stromberg-Carlson and Baldwin, but it is usually easy to trace the original manufacturer.

Wonder if 6SL7 is compatible with the Elise/Euforia?


----------



## Gjoel

UntilThen said:


> Hello @Gjoel  it depends on how bright or warm your system is sounding now. Mimby (Modi Multibit) from the many users impressions I've read, is that it follows Yggy's strength of revelation... ie it is very revealing. I'm speculating of course but I believe the addition of Mimby, will bring about a much better change than the DAC in the Auralic Aries Mini... moreso than adding a new PSU.
> 
> If on the other hand, you need to dial in more warmth, than a used Bimby or my ex-DAC - the NAD d1050, will be a better choice.
> 
> Eventually though you will get a LPS for the Mini. Everyone seems to do that. It's the fashion.



Thanks for your feedback UT. 

The Mimby haven't been in stock for ages in EU. After your reply I looked again, and there it was! So took it as a sign and did order it. Should ship out before 26th June. 

Can't wait to hear a MB dac in my system. 

Only MB dac I have been trying is a totalDAC costing twice my car

So looking forward to compare Mimby to my internal dac in Auralic..


----------



## angpsi

Gjoel said:


> Can't wait to hear a MB dac in my system.
> 
> Only MB dac I have been trying is a totalDAC costing twice my car


Hi @Gjoel, what's your impression of the TotalDAC? Worth the hype? It's being used in so many exhibition systems in hi-end shows I can't help but be intrigued now that I know you auditioned it in your own convenience.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hi @Gjoel, what's your impression of the TotalDAC? Worth the hype? It's being used in so many exhibition systems in hi-end shows I can't help but be intrigued now that I know you auditioned it in your own convenience.



Buy the car and Yggy. Forget the TotalDAC and save your marriage and live happily ever after...... and you have to listen to Yggy.. if this DAC doesn't move you..... she's yours.

Elise and Euforia singing now like shelahs.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 14, 2017)

Gjoel said:


> Thanks for your feedback UT.
> 
> The Mimby haven't been in stock for ages in EU. After your reply I looked again, and there it was! So took it as a sign and did order it. Should ship out before 26th June.
> 
> ...



I think you did the right thing. I saw a Mimby on the local classified for $300 aussie dollars and while I was debating about buying it and comparing it to Yggy, someone beat me to it..... this multibit doesn't last long on the for sale section.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Buy the car and Yggy. Forget the TotalDAC and save your marriage and live happily ever after...... and you have to listen to Yggy.. if this DAC doesn't move you..... she's yours.
> 
> Elise and Euforia singing now like shelahs.


 At this point I can't even afford the mimby, let alone an Yggdrasil or a totalDAC... Perhaps sometime within the next five years DACs will have evolved so much that the-" -then vintage - Yggy will cost 350 euros, like my Benchmark DAC1 costs now, and then I'll be able to get it!
Maybe I'll get yours!


----------



## UntilThen

I've been thinking.... if I have one headphone in Elise and another headphone in Euforia, I could listen through both tube amps like this. Which could be a breakthrough in sound....


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 14, 2017)

angpsi said:


> At this point I can't even afford the mimby, let alone an Yggdrasil or a totalDAC... Perhaps sometime within the next five years DACs will have evolved so much that the-" -then vintage - Yggy will cost 350 euros, like my Benchmark DAC1 costs now, and then I'll be able to get it!
> Maybe I'll get yours!



I expect my Yggy to appreciate 5 times in 5 years times. If it depreciates to 350 euros, I'll have to sue George Soros. Buy the Yggy and leave your children an inheritance but you need to specify who gets it or they will be fighting over it !

Likewise get Elise and Euforia and 'will' it to your son and daughter.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Hi @Oskari, in what way? Are they Original Boxes?


I find the style quite unusual. That's all.


----------



## UntilThen

Both Elise and Euforia have the same gain at the same 9 o'clock volume position. Definitely more similarities than dis-similarities here and they are not even using identical tubes.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> I use a pair of Raytheon 7N7 - generally all 7N7 are made by Sylvania irespective of brand.


Mostly, yes, but some were made by National Union.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 14, 2017)

I have a feeling that the analogy between Elise and Euforia is like that of the Mimby and Yggy. On first listen, they sound very similar and you think, "What the fish did I buy the Yggy (that cost 10 times more) for?" However as any Yggy owner will tell you, there's no way those 2 DACs sound exactly the same.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Mostly, yes, but some were made by National Union.



Thanks Oskari. I know you will expand on it.

I was impressed with the 7N7 enough to use it on Elise on her first exhibit at a Head-Fi meet in 2016. Here it is paired with TS 5998. I don't like using adapters now but the 7N7 sound as good as a classy Sylvania 6SN7 and cheap.... worthwhile looking into it.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> the 7N7 sound as good as a classy Sylvania 6SN7


Quite simply because that's what it is. Basically.


----------



## Gjoel

angpsi said:


> Hi @Gjoel, what's your impression of the TotalDAC? Worth the hype? It's being used in so many exhibition systems in hi-end shows I can't help but be intrigued now that I know you auditioned it in your own convenience.




Did try TotalDAC - a Mjölnir electrostatic head amp - Sennheiser HE60/ Stax 007. 
And at the same mini meet the TotalDAC also was connected to Liquid Gold - HE1000. 

The He60 combo was some of the best I have ever heard. Nothing was missing. 
But would I use that much. As UT says, I would rather keep my wife and get a Yggy


----------



## UntilThen

UT is also a marriage counsellor now. Buy Elise and Euforia for a harmonious relationship. She gets one and you get one. No fighting on who gets to listen. Of course you need a DAC that can output to 2 amps simultaneously ... at the moment I can only think of Gumby and Yggy.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Quite simply because that's what it is. Basically.



What I don't get is why 7N7 is in production for only a short time. Not as robust as a 6sn7? Otherwise the industry would have continue on with it....


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> For now I am trying to dig up interesting 6SN7 variants (but only if the price is right).


There are many of those! On the other hand, if you already have the same tubes as 6SN7GTs, there's no reason for the same as 7N7s.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> What I don't get is why 7N7 is in production for only a short time. Not as robust as a 6sn7? Otherwise the industry would have continue on with it....


Loctal tubes never became as popular as octal tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

OMG ..... Elise is sounding so good a few hours into operation. Liquid warm and liquid gold. An athlete that is agile on her feet and swift in her motion, she will run rings in your head. All Elise owners should take pride in this lovely sounding tube amp. Take care of it and roll some decent tubes in it.

With a HD800 or T1 or a modified HD650, you will be smiling even without teeth.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Loctal tubes never became as popular as octal tubes.



Yeah but why? They both have octopus legs except the loctal has slimmer legs. In fact the 7N7 pins slot in and lock more securely. And Sylvania developed it for ruggedized applications such as automotive radios.


----------



## UntilThen

And I'll be sleepy at work with only 4 hours sleep. Why oh why did Elise come on a Wednesday?????????? Lukasz !!!!!!!


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> According to JACmusic, the Toshiba 6SN7GTB look identical to 1960 Telefunken 6SN7GTB tubes.


Ah. They are fond of insinuating things.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Yeah but why?


VHS versus Betamax again.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 14, 2017)

Ok..... I'm buying a one month old or new HD600 with box and original invoice for $230 aussie dollars. Too good to pass up on and I need HD600 in my stable. 

That's US$174 !!!

cheaper than some of my tubes !!!


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Ok..... I'm buying a one month old or new HD600 with box and original invoice for $230 aussie dollars. Too good to pass up on and I need HD600 in my stable.
> 
> That's US$174 !!!
> 
> cheaper than some of my tubes !!!




Wow, yeah that is a great deal, and a wonderful match with your OTL.....congrats


----------



## UntilThen

It's a great deal except I've to work out how to wear 4 headphones at the same time. Need a bit of practise.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Another lovely Japanese tube is the Hitachi 6SN7GTB with the black plates (ITT rebrands are not uncommon).



I hope you are right. I just bought 4 of these Hitachi.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/162505624136


----------



## richdytch

How are things in Eliseland? I've not stopped by in ages. I stopped using my Elise for a long time, just using my Class D monoblocks and a volume pot to drive my speakers. I've been enjoying the crazy clarity a lot, but started to get a bit of a craving for lushness once more, so have gone back to the quad 909/Elise combo for a while. It IS lovely. Very lovely. 

My outright winning combo seems to be EL3N as powers and Sylvania 6SN7WGT. Those Sylvanias seem to have a rep for being rather dry sounding, but they're still developing with use, and they're pretty much the nicest, most fluid driver I own. They took a very long time to wake up.


----------



## angpsi

richdytch said:


> .
> My outright winning combo seems to be EL3N as powers and Sylvania 6SN7WGT. Those Sylvanias seem to have a rep for being rather dry sounding, but they're still developing with use, and they're pretty much the nicest, most fluid driver I own. They took a very long time to wake up.


 hi @richdytch, how long would that be? Weeks, months, years? I just got these and sang their praises, so I'm definitely interested to know more!


----------



## UntilThen

Sylvania 6sn7wgt shouldn't take weeks, months, years to really shine. If it takes years, it would be probably be nearly dead by then - burn out ! 

Anyhoo, I've Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Bendix 6080wb in Elise now and let me tell you that I DO like this combination very much. I hope the Hitachi boys will perform just as well because they were quite cheap. $78 for 4. I like such bargain. Buy one get one free. Buy 2 get 3 free. Works for me.


----------



## UntilThen

2nd night of Elise burn in and she's already sounding very good. I perceive a slight leaner and more defined tone compared to Euforia. Perhaps with further burn in, it will flesh out more. Even if it doesn't, this is a very captivating tone and I really like how sweet and liquid Elise sounds. This is not a dry tone but it is moist like a freshly baked muffin.

This combination is a stunner.   PC > Yggy > Elise > HD800 or modified HD650 using Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Bendix 6080wb.


----------



## richdytch

angpsi said:


> hi @richdytch, how long would that be? Weeks, months, years? I just got these and sang their praises, so I'm definitely interested to know more!



Hi @angpsi it's hard to put an exact figure on it. I think initially they went from sounding very closed in and nasal, to being very pleasant, maybe over the course of 50 hours. I've probably got another 200-300 hours on them now. That's through 5 months of intermittent use. The improvement is gradual and subtle, but whereas they used to sound quite dry at one time, they've really loosened up. The treble on them is glorious, and they're possibly the 'wettest' sounding tube I own now. But they're great across the frequency range - solid, sweet, and they do make everything sound big. Definitely will be buying some more of these, as a backup. 

Please note though, my observations are made listening over speakers, using the Elise as a preamp. I rarely use headphones.


----------



## pctazhp

richdytch said:


> Please note though, my observations are made listening over speakers, using the Elise as a preamp. I rarely use headphones.



I almost never use a headphone. I use HD800S, which is a HPD (Head Pleasure Device).

I also love my Sylvania 6SN7WGTs.


----------



## UntilThen

@mordy  I'm just going to stay here and talk about tubes. Rather than go back and forth with the Euforia's thread. 

I don't want to buy expensive 6sn7 anymore. In fact, going forward, it's about buying 'cheaper' tubes that I believe will provide a greater tonal range choice in my collection.

I've made another 2 purchases. I think I've just started on my 6sn7 and 6as7 purchase. 

RCA 6sn7gtb - $24 pair

 

RCA 6as7g - $35 pair (my old pair of RCA 6as7g is starting to crackle and I will bin them)


----------



## angpsi

richdytch said:


> Hi @angpsi it's hard to put an exact figure on it. I think initially they went from sounding very closed in and nasal, to being very pleasant, maybe over the course of 50 hours. I've probably got another 200-300 hours on them now. That's through 5 months of intermittent use. The improvement is gradual and subtle, but whereas they used to sound quite dry at one time, they've really loosened up. The treble on them is glorious, and they're possibly the 'wettest' sounding tube I own now. But they're great across the frequency range - solid, sweet, and they do make everything sound big. Definitely will be buying some more of these, as a backup.
> 
> Please note though, my observations are made listening over speakers, using the Elise as a preamp. I rarely use headphones.


Well, my background is with speakers too. Elise and HD600 was my first venture in Head-fi, and to be honest I liked the liquidity as the music hit directly into my eardrums. my ATC speakers system is quite comfortable with solid state as I find the room itself more than complements for volume and 'meatiness'. As far as the driver tubes go, the wgt was followed by a pair of Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb and slightly afterwards with a pair of Sylvania 6ns7w. Haven't had any of them for long, I'll be sure to give them a fair amount of time in the following weeks.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> @mordy  I'm just going to stay here and talk about tubes. Rather than go back and forth with the Euforia's thread.
> 
> I don't want to buy expensive 6sn7 anymore. In fact, going forward, it's about buying 'cheaper' tubes that I believe will provide a greater tonal range choice in my collection.
> 
> ...


May I also remind you Lukasz suggested me to try out the GE 6as7g. What he actually said was that they have had very nice results out of these when they were developing the Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Wow, yeah that is a great deal, and a wonderful match with your OTL.....congrats



Too bad. Seller says someone pm him first. Oh well, I don't really need another HP. 3 is enough. 

Can buy some 6sn7 instead.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 15, 2017)

angpsi said:


> May I also remind you Lukasz suggested me to try out the GE 6as7g. What he actually said was that they have had very nice results out of these when they were developing the Elise.



I had a NOS pair of GE 6as7g which I have since given to @connieflyer . It sounded pretty much like RCA 6as7g to me. That's not to say it's a bad tone. If you really need to dial in warm, lushness and a tubby bass, the RCA 6as7g is it.

I think Lukasz is missing the 'C' in the GE 6AS7G.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 15, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Well, my background is with speakers too. Elise and HD600 was my first venture in Head-fi, and to be honest I liked the liquidity as the music hit directly into my eardrums. my ATC speakers system is quite comfortable with solid state as I find the room itself more than complements for volume and 'meatiness'. As far as the driver tubes go, the wgt was followed by a pair of Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb and slightly afterwards with a pair of Sylvania 6ns7w. Haven't had any of them for long, I'll be sure to give them a fair amount of time in the following weeks.



I don't have time to revisit my lounge speaker system yet. I'm too busy in the study with 2 tube amps, 3 headphones, 100+ tubes, 2 DACs, 1 CD player, 1 turntable and active desktop speakers.... forgot to mention the V-Monk.

I don't even have time to go into the kitchen !!!

My new deck is unpainted...

My lawn is not mowed...

My swimming pool is not cleaned...

My gutters are over flowing with leaves....

My dog is not walked....

I haven't tweeted in ages..... 

Life of a head-fier....


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> I don't have time to revisit my lounge speaker system yet. I'm too busy in the study with 2 tube amps, 3 headphones, 100+ tubes, 2 DACs, 1 CD player, 1 turntable and active desktop speakers.... forgot to mention the V-Monk.
> 
> I don't even have time to go into the kitchen !!!
> 
> ...


Well, I've spent the last two hours listening to Peppa Pig on tv playing through my stereo system! So much for audiophile grade auditions!


----------



## UntilThen

I don't know Peppa Pig. My genre isn't that extensive, unlike you.


----------



## mordy (Jun 15, 2017)

Hi UT,

Glad to see that you ordered my Unsung Heroes RCA 6SN7GTB tubes. BTW, the date code CM is June 1969.
Holding my breath now to find out if my impressions are shared with others, or only imagined...
Just found a rarity that i never heard of before - a Toshiba 6SN7G:






Pulled out my Shuguang 6N5PJ (fireworks) tube - nyet - that's not it. I mean, Toshiba Japan got to be special, no?
But it looked familiar - pulled out my RCA 6AS7G. Yep, even the silk screening on the tube is the same, so it must be a RCA re-brand.

Re your old crackling RCA tubes - did you give the pins a good cleaning?

Edit: Could be that I am wrong. Apparently 6AS7 tubes were made in Japan by NEC and Toshiba. 
Here is a reference courtesy Oskari:
http://www.geocities.jp/radiomann/HomePageVT/Audio_US_Triode.html#6080


----------



## UntilThen

Can anyone confirm if this is identical to a Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plate? 

.... and this is reserved for me. Don't you dare touch it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-US...%3Aacca2f3c15c0ab6bf8cf9354fffe332c%7Ciid%3A1


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Glad to see that you ordered my Unsung Heroes RCA 6SN7GTB tubes. BTW, the date code CM is June 1969.
> Holding my breath now to find out if my impressions are shared with others, or only imagined...



What about the quad Hitachi 6sn7gtb black glass that I bought? Are they any good?

My old pair of RCA 6AS7G is about to die... it's not the pins.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> I don't know Peppa Pig. My genre isn't that extensive, unlike you.


Let me offer you an education then: https://www.youtube.com/user/theofficialpeppa


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> I hope you are right. I just bought 4 of these Hitachi.


They are good, very open sounding tubes, but as always, it's the synergy that matters.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> Love them all. this is another FA classic version


Sure is!


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> What about the quad Hitachi 6sn7gtb black glass that I bought? Are they any good?
> 
> My old pair of RCA 6AS7G is about to die... it's not the pins.


Hi UT,

I do not have any experience with the Hitachi 6SN7GTB - only with the Channel Master. It took me a long time to identify them as NEC (Nippon Electric Co). There was a fair amount of cross branding, so it is difficult to know who the Japanese manufacturer actually was. Here is another Japanese name that manufactured for others as well as for the US market: Shibuara.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> I don't have time to revisit my lounge speaker system yet. I'm too busy in the study with 2 tube amps, 3 headphones, 100+ tubes, 2 DACs, 1 CD player, 1 turntable and active desktop speakers.... forgot to mention the V-Monk.
> 
> I don't even have time to go into the kitchen !!!
> 
> ...



The rest doesn't matter, but I think you should walk Finn!

I'm a Finn as well, and I need my leaks.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Here is another Japanese name that manufactured for others as well as for the US market: Shibuara.


I think that's Tokyo Shibaura. That is, Toshiba.


----------



## Tim Le

Hello everyone, new Elise owner checking here! Just wanted to say thanks everyone for the plethora of information in this thread as well as the old one. 

As a point of reference, I currently have Philips el3n and ken-rad 6sn7 tubes 

If I wanted driver tubes with big, boomy (not necessarily accurate) bass, which direction would you guys point me in?


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 15, 2017)

Tim Le said:


> Hello everyone, new Elise owner checking here! Just wanted to say thanks everyone for the plethora of information in this thread as well as the old one.
> 
> As a point of reference, I currently have Philips el3n and ken-rad 6sn7 tubes
> 
> If I wanted driver tubes with big, boomy (not necessarily accurate) bass, which direction would you guys point me in?



Welcome Tim. Always happy to see a new Elise owner here. She's a unicorn btw.

The driver I would recommend is Foton 6H8C (cheaper) or RCA 6sn7gt vt231 smoke glass (more expensive).

Hang on a sec..... those ken rad 6sn7 should be more than ample with bass.. if not I'm afraid you might need a subwoofer. 

Edit:- Mullard ECC31 is strong on bass too but I try not to roll with adapters now.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> The rest doesn't matter, but I think you should walk Finn!
> 
> I'm a Finn as well, and I need my leaks.



I would never have thought of that !!! I promise to look after Finn better now !!!


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 15, 2017)

Oskari said:


> I think that's Tokyo Shibaura. That is, Toshiba.



Hey that's very clever. I would never have thought that's how Toshiba came about.

NEC by the way is Never Ending Conquest.

IBM is I Bitch More ...... any law suit here, please see @pctazhp


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> Welcome Tim. Always happy to see a new Elise owner here. She's a unicorn btw.
> 
> The driver I would recommend is Foton 6H8C (cheaper) or RCA 6sn7gt vt231 smoke glass (more expensive).
> 
> Hang on a sec..... those ken rad 6sn7 should be more than ample with bass.. if not I'm afraid you might need a subwoofer.




Thanks UT, does the ken rad 6sn7 have even more bass than the Foton 6H8C? The fotons are pretty cheap so I might just order them anyways. You know what they say about tubes.. the more the merrier


----------



## whirlwind (Jun 15, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Can anyone confirm if this is identical to a Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plate?
> 
> .... and this is reserved for me. Don't you dare touch it.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-USA-6SN7GT-6SN7-VT231-black-glass-strong-NIB-NOS-tube/122479296747?_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=beed6287712641809b166c01b87bece5&pid=100675&rk=2&rkt=15&sd=122482274423&_trkparms=pageci%3Aad639e53-51ef-11e7-a87a-74dbd1805748%7Cparentrq%3Aacca2f3c15c0ab6bf8cf9354fffe332c%7Ciid%3A1




No, it is not a TSBGRP.....looks like a Ken Rad by the staggered pins at the top. Good tube, nice bass.

TSBGRP looks like this on top


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> Thanks UT, does the ken rad 6sn7 have even more bass than the Foton 6H8C? The fotons are pretty cheap so I might just order them anyways. You know what they say about tubes.. the more the merrier



I can't tell you that .... yet. Imagine the honourable UT not having Ken Rad 6sn7 vt231 yet?  

Ok ... that will be addressed because Whirlwind just told me that is a Ken Rad and I will but Oshipao's other Ken Rad - brilliant !!!


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> I would never have thought of that !!! I promise to look after Finn better now !!!


You make us Finns proud.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh yes !!! I bought that Raytheon 6sn7gt black glass NOS NIB gleaming glass and pin.


----------



## UntilThen

@oshipao  hang on to the Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass for me. I'm buying it to complete my missing Ken Rats puzzle.


----------



## whirlwind (Jun 15, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Oh yes !!! I bought that Raytheon 6sn7gt black glass NOS NIB gleaming glass and pin.



I jumped the gun....that looks like a National Union and not a Ken Rad, the Ken Rad has silver up from the base for about a half an inch.

You are going to need a match for a National union...they are nice tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I jumped the gun....that looks like a National Union and not a Ken Rad, the Ken Rad has silver up from the base for about a half an inch.
> 
> You are going to need a match for a National union...they are nice tubes.



Ok.... the seller has another NU that is smoke glass instead of black. You think it sounds the same?


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Ok.... the seller has another NU that is smoke glass instead of black. You think it sounds the same?


 
I would hold off for now, let someone confirm what the tube really is that you bought, the 280 code is a Raytheon code, so maybe this is not a rebranded tube.....I am not quite sure at this point.

I do not have any Raytheon black glass tubes to compare.  I only have Raytheons in clear glass


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari !!!! What did I buy?

Is it a Ken Ray or Union Ray or just Raytheon? Now I'm really curious.


----------



## Oskari (Jun 16, 2017)

Not sure, but looks a lot like NU…

I mean this NU:

http://m.ebay.ie/itm/NU-National-Union-USA-6SN7GT-6SN7-VT231-VT-231-black-glass-tube-/121876682847

If that is NU…


----------



## whirlwind (Jun 16, 2017)

As far as you can see from the tube UT bought and the NU tube Oskari posted above...those look very much the same tube to me...definitely the top construction and it is hard to tell, but in the first picture of the tube that UT bought, looks like you can barley see the bottom rectangular getter also.

If you can find a Raytheon black glass with the same construction, you are then golden for sure UT  

I have a couple tubes that are branded Crosley that are this same construction, that I believe are NU tubes and they sound wonderful.

I would say find a tube with what you believe to be the same construction UT and it should be a match, it is hard to tell from the pictures on e-bay sometimes. I have no clue if NU black glass and smoked glass tubes sound the same.

The Tung Sol BGRP was made for them by many different manufacturers, i have a couple that i found cheap branded RCA, but they are clearly TSBGRP, no mistake in the construction of these.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh well, the tube Oskari listed is from the same seller that I bought from and that listing has ended. I'll just be on the lookout for a NU 6sn7gt black glass. Anyone has one let me know 

Meanwhile I found a foam to stand my growing 6sn7.... except I need more


----------



## UntilThen

This seller must be selling off his massive collection. Some very interesting tubes like this 6sn7gtb with side halo getters..... never seen before. Tempted to buy it and try it.

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/GE-USA-and-C...721633?hash=item25d85c5ca1:g:NLcAAOSws5pZNqzZ


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 16, 2017)

I'm thinking of getting this... comes with a bonus Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231 which I could pair with the black glass...
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Raytheon-6SN...759414?hash=item25d5dc11b6:g:43QAAOSwjqVZCdbk

What do you think gents? 

Seller is in Australia so the shipping is cheap for me.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> comes with a bonus Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231 which I could pair with the black glass...


That won't make a matching pair.


----------



## myphone

UntilThen said:


> I'm thinking of getting this... comes with a bonus Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231 which I could pair with the black glass...
> http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Raytheon-6SN...759414?hash=item25d5dc11b6:g:43QAAOSwjqVZCdbk
> 
> What do you think gents?
> ...


UT, I have a pair yellow label Raytheon Registered. On tube bases, labeled as made in Japan.


----------



## mordy

myphone said:


> UT, I have a pair yellow label Raytheon Registered. On tube bases, labeled as made in Japan.


Hi mp,

Could you give us a picture? How do they sound?

Hi UT,

In my 6SN7 grab box I have a GE and a RCA side getter tube. In my experience the location of the getter has no bearing on sound. I think that the side getter construction allowed for a smaller glass envelope and nothing else.


----------



## UntilThen

myphone said:


> UT, I have a pair yellow label Raytheon Registered. On tube bases, labeled as made in Japan.



Japan may be late on the tube scene but I think once they put their mind to emulating something, they will better it, just like Mr Honda who carted some motorcycle parts in his backpack home to the Land of The Rising Sun and start a chain of incredible Hondas, Suzukis, Kawasakis and Sukiyakis.

So I'm tempted to get more 'made in Japan' 6sn7s from Honda san but I've so many 6sn7s on the way, I'd hate to collapsed the mailing system. So I'll stretch it and make further purchase next month.

Yeah like Mordy say, do show photo of the tubes and describe in Dickens words, how they sound like.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> That won't make a matching pair.



Is it because they will look different or they will sound different? Please explain.

Somehow, I think Elise will merge the 2 drivers and produce a 'new' tone.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 16, 2017)

I've all these tubes incoming....

Gec 6as7g x 2 NOS NIB curve base
Gec 6as7g x 1 mint and square base
Chatham 6080wb x 1 mint solid graphite base
Rca 6as7g x 2 mint with parsley sage rosemary and rime..... hahaha it's thyme - just testing you.

Hitachi 6sn7gtb x 4 all with different brand names !!!
Rca 6sn7gtb x 2 from the 1950s - Mordy's unsung tubes.
Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231 black glass x 1 ..... if you have another, please donate urgently... we will need it for world peace.

have I left out anything?


----------



## UntilThen

@Tim Le  thanks for contacting me in pm and telling me that you like my masterpiece writeup on EL3N and TS 5998 so much that you're actually using that combination now and loving it. 

Much as I was inspired to write that many moons ago, I must say that I now have decided to walk the straight and narrow way... 

I.e. I've given up on non recommended tubes. Now I can't in good conscience tell you or anyone whether they will be alright or 'no right' in Elise, neither am I willing to be quoted anymore as the person who recommends you these tubes. I shall henceforth take the high road of caution and abide by what Feliks Audio recommends. Out of all this. an amazing thing happen.....

I found out how marvellous 6sn7 and 6as7 / 6080 can sound in Elise and Euforia. They also have the blackest black quietness without using adapters ...... and naturally they look like pure innocent beauties in their natural nakedness. 

As for your question of getting a power cord, some of these folks will tell you where they got theirs but I'm thinking of some Voodoo Tiger magic which will cost me $240 and that is a 'on sale' price !!!


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Is it because they will look different or they will sound different? Please explain.
> 
> Somehow, I think Elise will merge the 2 drivers and produce a 'new' tone.


They are different tubes, but mix all you want if you feel like it. I don't know how they sound.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> They are different tubes, but mix all you want if you feel like it. I don't know how they sound.



I'll tell you how it will sound... hideous.


----------



## UntilThen

I've been trying to figure out, what is it about tubes that got us so fascinated. I mean why is it so attractive that we're drawn to buying it more and more.

Let's consider some of it's appealing features...

Small - you can hold it in your hands and caress it.

Tough - despite be encase in glass, tubes are actually very tough and unbreakable, unless you're like me, trying to unplug it out of the tight socket with force.

Cheap - you must be kidding. Some tubes are more than the GDP of some countries.

Glow - ah now we're talking. We love the glow, don't we? It's romantic.

Sound - huh, that's a given. Seriously how do tubes sound so different. Not only different but they sound euphonic !!! I believe this more than anything, is the reason why we're so obsessed with buying tubes. With tubes, we're in control of how our OTL amps sounds. We're the master dispenser and creator of wunderkind. 

Remember this handsome guy? He started it.


----------



## pctazhp

*The Sound of Vacuum Tubes, Part I*


----------



## mordy

pctazhp said:


> *The Sound of Vacuum Tubes, Part I*


hI PCT,

The only sound I heard was that of the author Eddie Cilletti - did I miss something?


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> hI PCT,
> 
> The only sound I heard was that of the author Eddie Cilletti - did I miss something?



You heard


----------



## mordy (Jun 16, 2017)

Left the trolls and went back to listening to New Orleans Jazz. Speaking of Japanese tubes, here is a nice recording from the George Lewis New Orleans Band in Japan in 1962. Video quality is sub par, but the sound is OK. A very beautiful tune - Over the Waves:



It is very interesting that the YouTube comments are in many different languages; English, Finnish, Hungarian, Spanish etc - this music must have universal appeal.....

That visit in 1962 sparked an interest in New Orleans Jazz that remains even today in Japan. Here is a contemporary recording of the above tune by a very good Tokyo band:


----------



## UntilThen

This is one of 2 Sissel's song that I love. Sounds so good on the system now.


----------



## UntilThen

After 3 nights of listening to Elise, I get a taste of the difference when I switch back to Euforia for the above song. 

'Should It Matter' with these 2 amps... yes fortunately or unfortunately .... and I'll keep you in suspense till Elise has undergone a longer burn in - like a 100 hours.


----------



## myphone

mordy said:


> Hi mp,
> 
> Could you give us a picture? How do they sound?
> 
> ...


 

Mordy, I have not had chance to try them out yet. Structure is different from my other earlier Raytheon tubes.


----------



## Oskari

myphone said:


>


That's Toshiba.


----------



## UntilThen

Does look similar to the Hitachi tubes that I bought.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> That's Toshiba.



Ok so what's different between Toshiba and Hitachi?   ..... apart from the name.....


----------



## Oskari

Hitachi used a larger fontsize to print JAPAN. 

(I have not heard the Toshiba.)


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Hitachi used a larger fontsize to print JAPAN.
> 
> (I have not heard the Toshiba.)



So just whisper to my ears.... are the Hitachi special? Have I step on a gold mine?


----------



## Oskari (Jun 16, 2017)

They are quite unique. 

I like them but they might not fit every system.


----------



## UntilThen

What an ambiguous answer.


----------



## Oskari

I don't do wine terminology. You'll hear them soon enough!


----------



## mordy (Jun 16, 2017)

Just received my backup pair Channel Master/NEC 6SN7GTB. Do they look like the Raytheon?







The chrome cap is quite prominent and this is the main way I figured out that they were made by NEC. See what I mean? However, the pair above has a less prominent chrome top. Maybe made by Toshiba? The date code is 2C - March 1962 (?)




This is the look of the original pair.

I really do like these - a very even FR and good solid well controlled bass.

In my old LD MKIII days we could not tell which Japanese manufacturer made what, so we used a generic name - MatsuToTenNec lol


----------



## Oskari

Mordy, I think yours were made by NEC.


----------



## myphone

Oskari said:


> That's Toshiba.



Thank you, Oskari. Still have many other tubes to go through first.


----------



## myphone

Euforia is such a great platform that it lets each tube's characters show through. With Mullard 6080 and GEC 6080, these less priced tubes, in UT's word "farmer's tubes", match very nicely as a whole system. With these high price 5998/7236/6080WB, only the rich 6SN7 types work well.


----------



## connieflyer

UT did you read the differences on the Reference 6sn7 thread? Explains the different sounds. https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## connieflyer

I know you don't have any of these, better jump on them before they are snatched up  http://www.ebay.com/itm/222531131104?rmvSB=true


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I know you don't have any of these, better jump on them before they are snatched up  http://www.ebay.com/itm/222531131104?rmvSB=true



Have you no conscience??? You do know that UT has a family and an unpainted backyard deck????


----------



## UntilThen

And a dog that I've to groom myself because I simply can't afford groomers fee now.

Believe me, I'll rewrite 6sn7 reference thread to include wine terminology because Oskari won't or can't.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 16, 2017)

So starting with Gec 6as7g - that's a Louis viii cognac.

Bottom of the pile is Ge 6as7ga - that's coconut alcohol.

Foton 6H8C is Vodka

Gec 6080 is Bloody Mary

Mullard 6080 is Guinness

Telefunken 6as7g is Heineken 

Hitachi 6sn7gtb is Sake


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Have you no conscience??? You do know that UT has a family and an unpainted backyard deck????



Correct. I will accept any paint you guys can spare.


----------



## CZ4A

Greetings from the APPJ PA1502A thread! I have a general question for the Elise users with the FDD20, since this thread returns a lot of hits for this tube. Specifically, was there a break-in period, and if so, about how long was it? 

I purchased a NOS FDD20 that is plugged into a FDD20-to-12AU7 12.6V adapter (APPJ supplies 12.6V to preamp tube) and... it sounds terrible. The bass is nearly silent and vocals and mids are severely recessed. It reminds me of listening to blown economy car speakers. I'm hoping this issue goes away with time and use but of course there could be other factors at play.


----------



## UntilThen

Hello CZ4A, I have used FDD20 with 12V in Elise as much as anyone.

It shouldn't sound that horrible as you described even though it benefits from 100 hours burn in. I'm using it as FDD20 to 6sn7 though. Seems like a compatible issue with your amp.


----------



## UntilThen

myphone said:


> Euforia is such a great platform that it lets each tube's characters show through. With Mullard 6080 and GEC 6080, these less priced tubes, in UT's word "farmer's tubes", match very nicely as a whole system. With these high price 5998/7236/6080WB, only the rich 6SN7 types work well.



I couldn't agree with this more. Both Elise and Euforia are a tube rollers dream.... specifically 6sn7 and 6as7.


----------



## UntilThen

Bought a 1952 National Union (Magnavox branded) 6sn7gt to pair with my Raytheon 6sn7gt. Hope it's close enough.


----------



## UntilThen

After 28 days of burn in, Yggy surpassed my turntable. I'm afraid it would take a high quality TT and cartridge to be in contention with Yggy. Even then, you won't get the incredible micro details and total blackness that Yggy displays.

I also feel that with the tone I'm hearing now, I could quite safely put the CD player away. 

Simply incredible tone now with PC > Yggy > Elise > modified HD650.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Bought a 1952 National Union (Magnavox branded) 6sn7gt to pair with my Raytheon 6sn7gt. Hope it's close enough.




Nice find.  They are great tubes.

Man, for someone who was through buying tubes.....you sure are on a roll  

Don't forget a set of these   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pai...062433?hash=item1a2da6e6a1:g:rvIAAOSw9~5ZOJh4


----------



## UntilThen

Or these 
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brimar-6...a61c989&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=292152282729

You know, I've not really gotten into 6sn7 because I was into all the other non recommended tubes. Now with 2 OTL amps that are specifically designed for 6sn7 / 6as7, perhaps it's time I try a few 6sn7.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Nice find. They are great tubes.



Well it was really hard to find a nice National Union 6sn7gt black glass, let alone a pair. When I first started in 2015, I still see them but now it's as rare as hens teeth. I imagine you've a lot of 6sn7?


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## UntilThen (Jun 17, 2017)

What has your life taught you so far? (in the context of Head-Fi)

Here are some thoughtful answers...

1. The only person you can trust fully is you.

2. No system is going to stay forever.

3. Social media friends can 'like' but they will likely not be there when your system goes bust.

4. Most of your friends are not your friends when you outbid them on their choice tubes on ebay.

5. Life is NOT fair because your neighbour has a better stereo. (why do you even expect it to be)

6. If you're the smartest person in the room, you need to change the room. Right NOW.

7. Stop fooling yourself by procrastinating. Just buy it.

8. The day you stop complaining, you game is up.

9. Comparing your system to others is the most useless thing you can spend your time in.

10. ...... this is for you to fill up.


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## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Bought a 1952 National Union (Magnavox branded) 6sn7gt to pair with my Raytheon 6sn7gt. Hope it's close enough.


That should work.


----------



## Tim Le

Hey guys, I'm currently using a pretty low impedance set of headphones (32 ohm) with the Elise. Whenever I turn the Elise off with my headphones plugged in, there is a loud popping noise. Is this normal?

I just take my headphones off my head before turning off the Elise, but I'm just wondering if the popping will possibly damage my headphones.


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## UntilThen (Jun 17, 2017)

What is the 32ohms headphone Tim? What brand and model.

I've use lower impedance than 32 and I don't have that problem.

Sennheiser Momemtum 18ohms


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## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> What is the 32ohms headphone Tim? What brand and model.




Grado RS2e


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## UntilThen

I've used 3 different models of Grados at the local meet. All seems to be playing well but not my kind of headphones.

I've not tried turning Euforia off with the Grados plugged though. 

Perhaps unplug your headphone before you power off.


----------



## UntilThen

This is one of the Grados I tried at the meet. I like my headphones covering my ears rather than resting on it.


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> This is one of the Grados I tried at the meet. I like my headphones covering my ears rather than resting on it.



How'd you like them compared to your HD800 or T1?

And those are some nice looking driver tubes, what are they?


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## UntilThen (Jun 17, 2017)

Tim Le said:


> How'd you like them compared to your HD800 or T1?
> 
> And those are some nice looking driver tubes, what are they?



I could love any of these 3 headphones in the Sennheiser's family with Elise and Euforia. HD800, HD650 and HD600. I also like T1 very much.

Of the 3 Grados I heard that day, the PS500 sounded the best to me. I may have like the PS500 .... now I wonder about the PS1000  However they do not come close to the Senns or the Beyer for my ears.... note I say my ears.... because there are Grado fans out there.

The tubes on Euforia are Psvane 6sn7 and Gec 6as7g. The GEC were loan to me by a head-fier at the Meet. What a generous guy.

This is the Grado PS500 but it's not my hand. 


Oh you mentioned the driver tubes. They are Psvane 6sn7 UK edition and they come as standard tubes with Euforia or as upgrades on Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

If I were to buy another headphone, it would be the Focal Utopia or it's less wallet killing but maybe more enjoyable younger brother, the Focal Elear. 

The Elear is made for the blues by BB King himself in collaboration with Eric Clapton.


----------



## UntilThen

For those of you contemplating more tubes for Elise, the choice is wide and tempting with 6sn7 and 6as7 / 6080.

Today, I've in Euforia, RCA 6sn7gt vt231 smoke glass and Tung Sol 5998. In Elise, I have Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Cetron 7236.

These are premium power tubes and 'choice' drivers. Massive euphoria here. It's hard for me to pin point my favourite combination because at the top end of the power tubes, the choice is as varied as it is interesting. Coupled with different headphones, this is what I call 'fine dining' experience. The menu is wide. Take your pick.

I'm listening on Elise with that combo now with my modified HD650. Life's good.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Don't forget a set of these
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pai...062433?hash=item1a2da6e6a1:g:rvIAAOSw9~5ZOJh4



Those are very interesting Marconi 6sn7. The price is a killer. I sure would love to hear them but that's not going to happen unless I sell off some of the treated pine on my deck.


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## UntilThen (Jun 17, 2017)

@connieflyer  over here. 

UT is here and there. Today's highlights is 3 OTL amps. I was going to sell the Darkvoice 336se for AUD$200 but I had a listen again, side by side with the FA's siblings. Come'on this is surely worth more than $200 !!! In fact it will come in handy for those occasions where I have a single tube.

Here with Tung Sol 6sn7gtb 1960s and Tung Sol 5998 and HD800. This is what I'm hearing.

I'll connect my T1 in too.



Now to get back 'my' La Figaro 339 from my son. Hmmm... the desk is getting crowded.


----------



## UntilThen

After 4.5 days, Elise bottom still looks as good as new. Definitely roll with recommended tubes because it's recommended by the recommended manufacturer, which in turn is recommended by me.


----------



## mordy

Here is a very sweet tune - a clarinet solo by George Lewis


----------



## UntilThen

Someone ask me about Foton 6N8C drivers of which I have a pair. It's in Euforia now paired with Tung Sol 5998. For a $10 russian tube, run, don't walk to get them. It sounds great with Fiona Joy Hawkins's 'Contemplating' - I have this special audiophile recording on CD. Very clear and a tight strong bass. This particular pair exhibit no noise whatsoever. Stunning value. Get it.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Left the trolls and went back to listening to New Orleans Jazz. Speaking of Japanese tubes, here is a nice recording from the George Lewis New Orleans Band in Japan in 1962. Video quality is sub par, but the sound is OK. A very beautiful tune - Over the Waves:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm generally more in the West Coast/cool jazz camp but I like this.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> This is one of 2 Sissel's song that I love. Sounds so good on the system now.



Yes, but what do you mean: 1 of 2 (!) songs?


----------



## UntilThen

I like Sissel's voice and her songs but there are 2 that I love.

Should It Matter
All Good Things

Takes me back to a time where my passion was just as great as it is now in head-fi. That's what songs does. It brings back memories.


----------



## UntilThen

Speaking of memories, listening to Elise now brings back memories when I first got her one October morning in 2015. Some things can be beautiful and not cost too much and Elise is one of them. Remember Elise was only $649 then..... that's what I paid.

I can't remember what was the 1st song I play with Elise but I remember vividly what tubes and headphone I use.

Lorenz c3g and Tung Sol 5998 with hd650.

It was an impression that never left my mind.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> I like Sissel's voice and her songs but there are 2 that I love.


Heretic! But I'll let that slip. 


_Laura Pausini: La mia banda suona il rock_


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## UntilThen (Jun 18, 2017)

And a classic she will be despite Euforia being introduced, with better caps and resistors, silver wiring, better isolation and quietness, bigger and better transformer and fancy feet.

With Elise, it's about listening to music. Long after I have admired her looks and stroke her chassis, these days it's about listening to songs that takes me to nether regions without Bill's funds. You do know Bill right? .... and he's no heretic. 

He gave you windows !!! ... otherwise you will only have a door. ..... I mean DOS.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 18, 2017)

I bought my 1st PC in 1981, not long after it was introduced. It has 16k of user memory and 40k of ROM, two 5.4" diskette drives and a 'stylish' keyboard that made my Dad's typewriter look ancient.

... and you can connect joysticks and paddles to the PC to play some academy award winning 'Pong' - the world's greatest game ever made or written. No argument here.

Imagine playing Pong with your full range TOTL headphone on. It will be an immersive experience.

Then they introduced 'DOOM' ...... this game changed the world and is the start of nightmares.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Here is a very sweet tune - a clarinet solo by George Lewis


Unfortunately not available here.


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> Unfortunately not available here.


Try to find another site that has the Hindustan recording with George Lewis from 1944-5 - YouTube has several posts of the same tune.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> You do know Bill right? .... and he's no heretic.
> 
> He gave you windows !!! ... otherwise you will only have a door. ..... I mean DOS.



No, not heretic, more like antichrist. Lol.


----------



## UntilThen

Bill is a good guy, so is Steve. Imagine a world without apples but just oranges and pears.


----------



## UntilThen

My first introduction to music was listening to Sound Of Silence....

'Hello darkness, my old friend; I've come to talk to you again... '

Such deep meaning that only special words can convey.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Bill is a good guy, so is Steve. Imagine a world without apples but just oranges and pears.


There are many fruits, berries and vegetables from Ada to Zuse.


----------



## UntilThen

I  saw this and it's a strange vege


----------



## Oskari

What is that??


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Try to find another site that has the Hindustan recording with George Lewis from 1944-5 - YouTube has several posts of the same tune.


There's this but the clarinet solo is not much of a solo.


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> There's this but the clarinet solo is not much of a solo.



Hi Oskari,

Did not mean the version you posted - not very good. 

Here is what I meant. Try this one - maybe it will work for you.



This post has 0 views....


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## mordy

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> Did not mean the version you posted - not very good.
> 
> ...




If this does not work, I'll try something else - let me know


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> If this does not work, I'll try something else - let me know


Nope. Those kind of youtube videos are somehow automatically created and have limited availability.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> What is that??



The succulent plant is called Agave Attentuata. Flowers appear 10 years after planting. It is also commonly known as swansneck. I have quite a lot in my backyard rock garden but it has not flower yet. 

This is an incredible specimen in a big nursery.


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## UntilThen (Jun 19, 2017)

Came home and found a postal card on the floor. Postman was trying to deliver my NOS pair of GEC 6AS7G and another parcel of tubes... no idea what the 2nd parcel contains. Could be the single GEC 6as7g and single Chatham 6080wb solid graphite plates.

Elise has Sylvania 6sn7wgt with Cetron 7236 in her sockets. The tightness of tone from the Cetron 7236 mates perfectly with the Sylvania brown base and modified HD650. Swapping in HD800 and T1, gives an equally engaging tone. 7236 has the energy of the 5998 but with tightness and control that would put a gymnast to shame. It could skip, hop and jump and not miss a beat. Tone is fast, lively, nice tight controlled bass. It's North Atlantic Salmon without the fat. Full of Omega-3 oil. Try it and if you don't like it, try raw tuna next time.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 19, 2017)

Ok folks, the more I listen to my Elise, the more it sounded like my Euforia. So I wrote to Lukasz....

I ask him, 'Dear Lukasz, what have you done exactly to my Elise.... it's sounding more and more alike to my Euforia everyday.' I can still detect the subtle differences but it's getting close. I remember Euforia being much more different.

Then Lukasz replied...

_We did some changes to your Elise that are present in Euforia - for example the redesigned noise cancelling circuit and better capacitors. So to some extend your Elise is a bit tuned up and closer to  Euforia but doesnt have eg the silver wiring or new resistors, sockets etc._

At the start Lukasz did ask if I want Euforia's sockets in Elise. I told him no. Those hi-fidelity sockets are too tight for my taste. 

So now I know... my Elise is closer to a Euforia than a normal Elise. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

This is an episode of Me, Myself and Irene.


----------



## UntilThen

More than 12 tubes are waiting for me at the Post Office. I'm trying to remain calm here and get myself to work tomorrow like normal.

It's just another day.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> More than 12 tubes are waiting for me at the Post Office. I'm trying to remain calm here and get myself to work tomorrow like normal.



@connieflyer This is a true emergency. How soon can you leave for Sydney???  Please use whatever influence you have with @hypnos1 to join us. This is clearly not a case for Ghostbusters.



More like Beetlejuice


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> This is an incredible specimen in a big nursery.


It's the strangest thing…


----------



## pctazhp

Oskari said:


> It's the strangest thing…



The plant or UT?


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> The plant or UT?


Well, eh, I'll keep quiet.


----------



## Tim Le

Anyone have a chance to try these PsVane tubes (driver) with Tung-Sol 5998 (power)?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-1-Matc...226859?hash=item465e71cc2b:g:WkAAAOSw1WJZGmTA

@UntilThen Picked up some of those Fotons you recommended for about the price of a large pizza


----------



## connieflyer

I can leave next week if necessary, but I am afraid by then he may have gone over the edge!  As for the new tube sockets in the Euforia, it only took a few insertions and they are quite easy to insert or remove tubes.  Just received the RCA 6sn7 GT tubes with the GEC 6080 a new high, lots of information, slightly warm, very full.  I like it.  This was just one of those I saw them, liked the specs and purchased.  Ebay is just to easy. Hoping the Sylvania's will be a cut above have to check and see if Langrex has shipped yet.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,

Here are pictures of the flowering Agave Attentuata:


----------



## mordy

Hi Tim Le,

Also ordered a pair of Fotons - price of small pizza? 

ORDER TOTAL
US $7.94
Free shipping
* 6N8S Audiophile Tube Foton 1960's (6SN7GT, ECC32, 6CC10, 1578) NOS Tested*


----------



## UntilThen

Oi, don't buy up all the Fotons in the world. Save some for the next generation.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


>


I can just about manage growing pot marigolds…


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> I can just about manage growing pot marigolds…



Hello it's illegal to cultivate those green stuff... except for UT.

I'm quite astounded that my likes is growing proportional to my posts. How do I enrolled to be considered for the next President? If elected, I've give each of you an Agave from my backyard.


----------



## Tim Le

mordy said:


> Hi Tim Le,
> 
> Also ordered a pair of Fotons - price of small pizza?
> 
> ...



Forget pizza party, looks like we're going to have ourselves a tube party instead


----------



## UntilThen

Yes starting today after work for me. Thats in 10 hours time.

I will bring gec flavoured pizza with lots of herbs and spicies garnish.


----------



## Lord Raven

I need a single GEC topping to complete my GEC flavored pizza


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 20, 2017)

I am dying to meet my GECs. Finn can't understand what all the fuss is about and is looking confused.

Btw Finn is the love of my life.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the first song played when I power up the virgin GEC 6AS7G brand new pair that came all the way from Greece.


----------



## UntilThen

I could not believe how quiet the GEC 6as7g were. It is the quietest of all my tubes. With no music playing and volume to the max, I can't hear anything. It's not even microphonic. I could tap my fingers on my desk and I don't get feedback. This is a great sign that the tubes are in immaculate, pristine condition. Mind you these tubes have not been played before, Stavros told me. It is so new I debated about using it but hey, what's the point of buying if I ain't going to use it.

Behold the GEC 6AS7G that I bought from Stavros. It is his last NOS NIB pair of GEC 6as7g. He kept the best for last. The test read out is near perfect. It's unbelievable that these tubes from 1965, have been preserved so well. My thanks to Stavros for selling me his prize GEC tubes and the packing is so well done, it will withstand nukes.




Summary info of the tubes.

*MOV A1834 Pair Brown Curved Bases Cup Getters*
This is a beautiful pair MOV 6AS7G/CV2523/A1834 New In Box dating 1965. 
Both tubes have the same construction, identical codes, brown curved bases and pan getters. 
They are labeled GEC and come with the original boxes and tube wraps. 
The boxes are in good condition for their age. 
Nice clean tops, shinny pins. Matching test results.

*Details* 
Brown Curved Bases 
Clear Glass Black Plates 
Cup Getters 

*Codes* 
Tube 1: WD Z Tube 2: WD Z

*Test Results* 
Fully tested on my calibrated Jackson 648 No shorts or leakages 

Tube 1 Section 1: 97% Section 2: 98% 

Tube 2 Section 1: 101% Section 2: 101% 

Min is 70%, NOS is 100%​


----------



## UntilThen

These 4 tubes came from the Post Office today. I must have done something right to deserve these 4 tubes in one day. All 4 tubes are immaculate and all pins are tight and no loose base. Lettering are still new. Incredible.

The single GEC 6as7g and Chatham 6080wb at $80 and $35 are just like jewels that drop from the skies. It is unheard of at that price and in that condition. Again I must have done something right to deserve these.


----------



## UntilThen

I have been listening to this combination for the last 2 hours. Playing songs from:-

Spanish Harlem - Rebecca Pidgeon
Bird On A Wire - Jennifer Warnes
Brothers In Arms - Dire Straits
Four Seasons - Vivaldi
Feeling Sunshine - Fiona Joy Hawkins
Too Rich For My Blood - Patricia Barber
Marco Polo - Loreena Mckennitt

My verdict is that in my system with Yggy and HD800 with Euforia and these tubes, it is about as good as it gets. GEC 6as7g really does have that euphonic quality. It sounds ethereal and surreal at the same time. @HPLobster  do yourself a favour. Buy a NOS pair from Langrex before the stock is gone. You owe it to yourself to hear it in the comfort of your home. Just see a few more patients. 

Elise and Euforia does sound very good with farmers tubes but once you get a taste of the king's nuggets, there's no going back. Sell the cat, sell the dog, sell the queen.... no don't do that.... sell other stuff and buy the GEC 6as7g. It's called the holy grail for a reason.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 20, 2017)

Testing out the single GEC 6AS7G square brown base on Darkvoice 336se. Plays to perfection. This single tube is in such great condition and I've not heard the DV336se to sound like this. 

I used to think that the GEC 6as7g sounded too soft and relax. How wrong I was. Now in the comfort of my home and listening through Elise, Euforia and Darkvoice 336se, these tubes are as gutsy as it is refine. It is as dynamic as it is subtle. It is smooth as can be but it will play your rock albums better than any tubes. There needs to be more of these tubes and at more affordable price.

However, I know what I will do. These tubes will only be used when I really want to listen to music, not when music is a background task while you multitask with other stuff.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 20, 2017)

I started to play 'Daniel' by Elton John. I choked up as I think of Otto. Those bastards need to pay.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 20, 2017)

As I much as I love the GEC 6as7g, I need to move on to the Chatham 6080wb. Now this tone is interesting. It's not exactly the same as my pair of Bendix 6080wb. The Chatham seems to have more speed and sounded more dynamic. However I believe this tube to be very new. I wouldn't be surprised if it is completely unused. So burn in is probably necessary. Also, I'm listening to the Chatham 6080wb solid graphite plates on the DV 336se whereas I listen to the Bendix on Euforia or Elise.

Anyway, some close up pictures. As I said this tube is very new and I paid $35 for it. 

@connieflyer  if your Raytheon 6080wb sounds the same as this, which I believe it does, you've got yourself a bargain and one of the finest power tubes for Elise and Euforia.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> This is the first song played when I power up the virgin GEC 6AS7G brand new pair that came all the way from Greece.



Greece?!? You got your bargain priced GECs from Greece?


----------



## angpsi

And to think that I was counting on Stavros to give me my hands-on opportunity and maybe buy these...


----------



## pctazhp

Back in the day when a certain person on this thread was telling us why he didn't need GEC6AS7G I got mine from Stavros, along with slotted Bendix 6080. Oh, it gets so boring always being ahead of the pack


----------



## angpsi

Can't afford new tubes anyway... Have to buy a bike for my 6 year old daughter...


----------



## pctazhp

Your priorities are definitely in the right place. Really cool bike!!!


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Your priorities are definitely in the right place. Really cool bike!!!


Thanks, it's of Greek design; actually a friend of my wife's family makes these! Quite widespread internationally too!


----------



## thatonenoob

cause.


----------



## HPLobster (Jun 20, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> I have been listening to this combination for the last 2 hours. Playing songs from:-
> 
> Spanish Harlem - Rebecca Pidgeon
> Bird On A Wire - Jennifer Warnes
> ...




I apologize, but I am insanely busy these days, I´m at least 10 pages behind on this thread only and I have to keep it very brief:

The green Tung Sol 5998s from ValveTubes.com have arrived. They are in pristine condition, silent as a lake at midnight. Listening to them with my LCD-3, being driven by the PsVane 6SN7. "Nothing Happens In June" by Ulrich Schnauss, "Boyfriend" - by Marika Hackman...as this is the only kind of music my brain can manage right now.
It´s the best sound I have experienced so far. The Audeze sounds better with Elise now than with the the Mjolnir 2 + Stock tubes/LISST. Without question. The low-end is spot on, treble is spot on, it´s like a perfectly shaped crystal ball of sound surrounding you, showing you everything that´s there but still letting you breathe and relax. Hate to sound that enthusiastic again, but there is nothing I can do about it. These tubes are really, really great!


----------



## UntilThen

thatonenoob said:


> cause.



Ton, you need the GEC 6as7G. Then you'll rewrite your review of Elise.


----------



## thatonenoob

UntilThen said:


> Ton, you need the GEC 6as7G. Then you'll rewrite your review of Elise.



UT don't do this man...I'm already trying to curb my spending here and you're telling me there's something that'll bring the Elise to the next level?  

Dear...and I still have so many reviews to write (fell so far behind this last trip).


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 20, 2017)

HPLobster said:


> I apologize, but I am insanely busy these days, I´m at least 10 pages behind on this thread only and I have to keep it very brief:
> 
> The green Tung Sol 5998s from ValveTubes.com have arrived. They are in pristine condition, silent as a lake at midnight. Listening to them with my LCD-3, being driven by the PsVane 6SN7. "Nothing Happens In June" by Ulrich Schnauss, "Boyfriend" - by Marika Hackman...as this is the only kind of music my brain can manage right now.
> It´s the best sound I have experienced so far. The Audeze sounds better with Elise now than with the the Mjolnir 2 + Stock tubes/LISST. Without question. The low-end is spot on, treble is spot on, it´s like a perfectly shaped crystal ball of sound surrounding you, showing you everything that´s there but still letting you breathe and relax. Hate to sound that enthusiastic again, but there is nothing I can do about it. These tubes are really, really great!



Lobster, I'm really glad you like the Tung Sol 5998 because I really do. Some here who bought it after I gave glowing reviews of it, told me they didn't like it too much. One even told me he wants to return it but somehow kept it and it became his favourite power tubes. 5998 is truly special that's why it's been reviewed 5998 times.

Lobster, I know you're busy but that's good. Busy means you're raking in more money. Now if those 5998 impressed you, the GEC 6as7g will make you take a 2 weeks holidays, just to listen to it. So do me a favour, will you? Talk to Stavros and see if he has anymore GECs and if he doesn't then talk to Langrex and if Langrex doesn't, talk to @pctazhp to buy his pair.

Whatever you do, don't talk to me about buying mine... no touchin'


----------



## UntilThen

thatonenoob said:


> UT don't do this man...I'm already trying to curb my spending here and you're telling me there's something that'll bring the Elise to the next level?
> 
> Dear...and I still have so many reviews to write (fell so far behind this last trip).



With that pike fishing in Canada, I thought you would have make a fortune to buy not just tubes but Euforia too..... and then Yggy and you might like HD800 too. 

I think I like the Sony mdr z1r that you like too... well not as much as I like the HD800 and T1 but still like it....


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Greece?!? You got your bargain priced GECs from Greece?



Yeah... I talk to Stavros way back before I bought Yggy and HD800... I almost jump on the GEC then but I had my priorities right and bought Yggy and HD800 and that changed my world ..... and increased my posts dramatically. Is there anyway to reset my post count? 

Now that I've the 'chain' sorted, I contacted Stavros again and enquired if his heirloom is still with him. He said yes.. he was keeping it for UT. So long story short, it made it's way from Greece to Sydney in a big box !!!! with so many layers of bubble wrap.... the box is so big I thought I had 4 pairs of GEC 6as7g inside.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Back in the day when a certain person on this thread was telling us why he didn't need GEC6AS7G I got mine from Stavros, along with slotted Bendix 6080. Oh, it gets so boring always being ahead of the pack



Ah Pct, you should know UT by now. I don't jump head long into something expensive without research and serious considerations. So when I was trying to say I didn't like GEC 6as7g back then, I was actually trying to drive the price DOWN then but YOU, H1, Mordy, DL and just about every man and his dog have to sing the GECs praises and drive the price even more sky high. Yeah I blame you guys that the GECs cost the price of a car now.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg, I'm still chalking up the likes from this post. 
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/s...bable-start-up.701900/page-1407#post-13554538


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Greece?!? You got your bargain priced GECs from Greece?



'Bargain' needs to be qualified. I have to give up my Spiderman suit.


----------



## Tim Le

Hey guys, so after spending some more time with my Elise, I've noticed another small issue. Using TS 5998 as powers and Ken-Rad vt-231 as drivers, there is a small hum in the right channel. However, if I switch the right with the left tubes, the hum doesn't go to the left side.. instead, it disappears completely. I've actually found that with all my tubes, there is an ideal right and left tube which minimizes noise. It's not a huge deal, I just label all my tube boxes with an (R) or (L) to make sure I put the right tube in the right socket (no pun intended).

Just wondering if anyone's Elise exhibits this characteristic.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 20, 2017)

Haven't experience that but not all tubes are silent. My 5998 when new were silent both channels but now.... listen carefully what I say here.... *with no music playing and volume to the max*, I hear some very faint noise... this is not present with the new GEC 6as7g.

Does it bother me? No because that is extreme way to test tubes. In the real world you wouldn't listen to the Sound of Silence.

In your case, just maybe it might be Elise positioning. Try moving your amp to another spot or a slight shift. The right could be closer to some electrostatic fields... just a thought. Secondly, maybe your RCA connector isn't tight. Try tightening that. If this happens with all tubes, it's unlikely to be tube problem. So try all the things I suggest.


----------



## pctazhp

Just to be perfectly clear. No matter what, I firmly believe that UT is deserving to have the last and best of Stravos GEC6AS7G. The universe would be upside down if it were any other way. The fact that he probably had to pay an arm, leg and a year's supply of Agave is just icing on the cake for me.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Omg, I'm still chalking up the likes from this post.
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/s...bable-start-up.701900/page-1407#post-13554538



*SHOWOFF !!!*


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Just to be perfectly clear. No matter what, I firmly believe that UT is deserving to have the last and best of Stravos GEC6AS7G. The universe would be upside down if it were any other way. The fact that he probably had to pay an arm, leg and a year's supply of Agave is just icing on the cake for me.



That's right. If I didn't get Stavros's GEC 6as7g, my name will forever be UntilThen but now it can be changed to TheEnd.


----------



## pctazhp

TheEnd???? You do mean just for the rest of today. Tomorrow is another day, and as we like to say: "So many tubes, so little time"


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *SHOWOFF !!!*



I'm been offered a chair in Schiit's board of directors, overseeing communications and publicity. Showing off is one of my strengths. You need that in your resume for this job.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> TheEnd???? You do mean just for the rest of today. Tomorrow is another day, and as we like to say: "So many tubes, so little time"



Last post before I go to work. You're right !!! I have another parcel waiting at the Post Office for me. Wonder what tubes it is.


----------



## myphone

Tim Le said:


> Hey guys, so after spending some more time with my Elise, I've noticed another small issue. Using TS 5998 as powers and Ken-Rad vt-231 as drivers, there is a small hum in the right channel. However, if I switch the right with the left tubes, the hum doesn't go to the left side.. instead, it disappears completely. I've actually found that with all my tubes, there is an ideal right and left tube which minimizes noise. It's not a huge deal, I just label all my tube boxes with an (R) or (L) to make sure I put the right tube in the right socket (no pun intended).
> 
> Just wondering if anyone's Elise exhibits this characteristic.



Elise is a single-end design. only one of the two 6SN7 triodes is used per channel.


----------



## mordy

Tim Le said:


> Forget pizza party, looks like we're going to have ourselves a tube party instead





myphone said:


> Elise is a single-end design. only one of the two 6SN7 triodes is used per channel.


What do you think of this tube?

6DN7

It is a dual triode but each side is different. If only half of the dual triode is used, what could be the problem using it in the Elise/Euforia? This tube is similar to the 6SN7 but 0.9A.


----------



## CZ4A

UntilThen said:


> Hello CZ4A, I have used FDD20 with 12V in Elise as much as anyone.
> 
> It shouldn't sound that horrible as you described even though it benefits from 100 hours burn in. I'm using it as FDD20 to 6sn7 though. Seems like a compatible issue with your amp.



You're probably right about there being a compatibility issue with my amp. Unfortunately I don't have any other equipment that I can try the FDD20 in, so I'll likely sell these parts. Thanks for the reply UntilThen.


----------



## Tim Le

Thanks for all the help guys, I think my TS 5998s might be nearing the end of their lives. I'm seeing a lot of good recommendations for driver tubes, but what are some reasonably priced, well regarded power tubes?


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> 'Bargain' needs to be qualified. I have to give up my Spiderman suit.


My definition of bargain in this case would be less than the Langrex price. But I think you mentioned something like $80 per tube?


----------



## angpsi

Haven't been in the office since Friday, but my new acquisitions had already found their way to my desk. After a good cleaning with isopropanol I'm back to auditioning (pics are taken before the process). I'll spend the morning with the GEC, figured it'd be easier to compare coming from the Mullard. Driven by the Sylvania WGT, first impressions they look like a rounder sound, not as pronounced as the Mullard. I wonder if they'll open up as I play them, although they are second–hand tubes so they probably won't? Oh, and the Sylvania 6sn7w will be joining me very soon! Damn, I'm spending again...


----------



## Tim Le

I should've been more clear. What're some recommendations for power tubes under $50/pair?


----------



## angpsi

Btw, there are no GEC markings whatsoever on the tubes, just "6080" on one side and "CV2984 - KB/Z" on the other. Is that normal?


----------



## angpsi

Tim Le said:


> I should've been more clear. What're some recommendations for power tubes under $50/pair?


Hi @Tim Le, I was once advised here to try the RCA 6080 and they were indeed a very fun tube!


----------



## UntilThen

UT is having dinner. All queries will be answered later. In the meantime, others will reply as they wish.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> UT is having dinner. All queries will be answered later. In the meantime, others will reply as they wish.


Still checking in here, though!


----------



## angpsi

Foot tapping _and_ head shaking. Must be a good thing.


----------



## Tim Le

angpsi said:


> Hi @Tim Le, I was once advised here to try the RCA 6080 and they were indeed a very fun tube!



Thanks, I'll definitely check them out. 

I actually have a pair of Philips 6080 tubes, but they get very hot compared to the TS 5998. I actually stopped using them because they warmed up the Elise so much I thought maybe it could potentially damage it. This is my first tube (and nicest) amp, so maybe I'm just being paranoid.


----------



## angpsi

Can't remember if I recommended this earlier, but this is a very fun album!


----------



## angpsi

Tim Le said:


> Thanks, I'll definitely check them out.
> 
> I actually have a pair of Philips 6080 tubes, but they get very hot compared to the TS 5998. I actually stopped using them because they warmed up the Elise so much I thought maybe it could potentially damage it. This is my first tube (and nicest) amp, so maybe I'm just being paranoid.


From my limited experience all the 6080 tubes get significantly warmer than 6as7g. The same seems to apply to the Sylvania 6sn7 short bottle vs. Psvane 6sn7 which have a CV181 type of bottle.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 21, 2017)

GoGo Penguin sounds really great: fast transients, airy and precise rendering, attack, plus a coherent yet blooming image. If I didn't know I'd bet it was an ECM or ACT recording (if you are familiar with the sound signature). I think I will really like the GEC 6080 (are they, though? I'm really worried I don't see any GEC markings on them)! Now wondering how they will pair with the upcoming Sylvania 6sn7w...


----------



## UntilThen

I'll talk about CV2984 and CV2523.

CV is Common Valve.

CV2984 is identical to 6080. Difference being that the 6080 is the commercial version and CV2984 is UK's government selected valve for civil and military applications.

Examples of CV2984 are Mullard 6080 and GEC 6080. Both these brands could have the CV designation, which means that these batch of Mullard 6080 and GEC 6080 are selected by the UK government for their own usage. Of course, these government tubes are now released and sold to the public.

CV2523 is identical to 6AS7. Similar to the above, CV2523 are selected by the UK government for their own usage. Examples of CV2523 are the GEC 6AS7G.

You can tell Mullard 6080 and GEC 6080 apart by looking at the micas. Mullard have round mica. GEC's mica have shark's teeth.

So @angpsi what you have there is a GEC 6080 without doubt.

@Oskari  can correct me if I'm talking 'bull schiit'.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 21, 2017)

Next I like to address is Tim's request for power tubes < $50.

First of all, at this price range, we are looking at farmers tubes. No schiit, I'm telling you. You get what you pay for. Decades of usage and users opinions have drawn a line in the sand. Believe me, shrewd sellers and buyers determine the price on ebay. The expensive tubes are expensive for a reason. People know they are good and their price will be set by consumer demands. Cheap tubes are cheap because they are less desirable.

Does that mean cheap tubes are not worth torturing your ears? Nah... believe me, our ears are very tolerable. Likewise audio enthusiasts are very practical. They are not going to deny their child a toy just because they need to buy expensive tubes.

At the cheap end of the market, the tubes sound coarse, unrefined but hey if you're going to listen to Johnny Lee Hooker, whose voice is harden from years of whisky and cigars, why do you need a refined sounding tube? Likewise if you're going to watch Youtube 90% of the time, why would you complain about farmers tubes?

Alright, now we have that sorted out, let's look at the tubes under $50.

RCA 6080 - great for Johnny Lee Hooker, Jimmy Hendrick, Tupac, 50cents and all metal bands. Can't go wrong here. Strong bass, sand paper roughness to give Johnny's voice more credence.

GE 6AS7GA - For $10 a tube, don't ask me to do a one page review. It will produce tube warm and is quite engaging if you don't care too much about hearing everything... because you won't hear everything.

RCA 6AS7G - these aren't cheap anymore. I'm actually quite intrigued by these again. I think there's some use for these. They are probably the warmest, baddest ass bass producers. They will probably turn your HD800 into a LCD2.2. Amazing right. So get a pair and thank me later.

Svetlana 6H13C - this is the standard power tubes that comes with Elise and Euforia. I actually think they are not bad at all. Of course they are no where near the premium tubes but for the price, the enjoyment factor is quite high. Feliks Audio chose them for a reason. So before you dash out and buy the above, know that these tubes can hold a candle to the others tiny flame.

There might be other farmers power tubes but I won't list more because I'm getting a headache.

Next I'll talk about the middle class workers... I mean middle class tubes.


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> Next I like to address is Tim's request for power tubes < $50.
> 
> First of all, at this price range, we are looking at farmers tubes. No schiit, I'm telling you. You get what you pay for. Decades of usage and users opinions have drawn a line in the sand. Believe me, shrewd sellers and buyers determine the price on ebay. The expensive tubes are expensive for a reason. People know they are good and their price will be set by consumer demands. Cheap tubes are cheap because they are less desirable.
> 
> ...




If those RCA 6AS7G turns the HD800 into an LCD2.2.. can't wait to hear what they turn the LCD2.2 into


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 21, 2017)

Middle class tubes

These are the workers who gets tax the most but who has a voice that the government need to take heed. They are middle class America and that's about 80% we're talking. They work hard, pay more taxes, own more head-fis, vote when they are supposed to work and fight in the Vietnam wars. In other words, they are fair dinkum.

That's what these tubes are. Good value, pretty to take home as your wife. Do everything you want and more. Without further ado, here they are:-

Chatham 6AS7G - airy, breezy, fresh as morning sunshine. How could you not love this pretty girl next door?

Mullard 6080 - sweet Caroline, they are more sharp and energetic compared to the 'rounder' GEC 6080 but in my opinion, more fatiguing in long term listening. Alright before I rubbish this tube further, let me say that I actually like the Mullard 6080 very much. All tubes in this class have some class. They are that good.

Chatham 6520 - similar to the Chatham 6AS7G.

Tung Sol 7236 - this is a very interesting tube. It is the leaner brother of the Tung Sol 5998. Now you're stepping into classier territory and more damaging to your wallet. So beware....


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> If those RCA 6AS7G turns the HD800 into an LCD2.2.. can't wait to hear what they turn the LCD2.2 into



Ha !!!!  They will turn the LCD2.2 into Dr. Beats !!!!!!


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> Ha !!!!  They will turn the LCD2.2 into Dr. Beats !!!!!!



Haha so am I right in assuming that out of all the tubes mentioned, the RCA 6AS7G will give me the most bass + warmth? I'm planning on getting the Beyer T1 (gen 1), and this might be what I'm looking for to tame the infamous highs.


----------



## UntilThen

Next I'll talk about the Emperor's new clothes. I mean the aristocratic power tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> Haha so am I right in assuming that out of all the tubes mentioned, the RCA 6AS7G will give me the most bass + warmth? I'm planning on getting the Beyer T1 (gen 1), and this might be what I'm looking for to tame the infamous highs.



Too right. In the midst of winter, the RCA 6as7g is your best friend to cuddle with all night long.


----------



## angpsi

Thanks for the education UT. On a more "spot the difference" venture, I browsed through pictures of various iterations of GEC 6080 on Google and found that mine may be exactly like Langerex's but mine are empty where the latter have their GEC sticker; so it must be worn out on both tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Thanks for the education UT. On a more "spot the difference" venture, I browsed through pictures of various iterations of GEC 6080 on Google and found that mine may be exactly like Langerex's but mine are empty where the latter have their GEC sticker; so it must be worn out on both tubes.



Correct. You have been robbed of the stickers. GEC stickers are selling for a premium price on ebay. If you really need the stickers, I can sell you mine.


----------



## UntilThen

Aristocratic tubes aka Bill Gates tubes aka The Emperor's new clothes.

Rather than the same old boring tubes reviews, I'm presenting it in a new light. These tubes will make Thomas Edison proud. He wouldn't have dream that his light bulbs became sweet sounding valve - holy jupiters. 

These tubes have an air about them. Literally. When you owned them, you have entry to Trumps's golf course resort. It's a free pass for sure. Membership is super expensive here. They are the bringer of joy as well as the bringer of doom. So beware..... Look, calculate, consider before you buy. However once you do, you will feel like the Emperor.... happy being naked and still sounding good.

Alright this review is getting out of hand and I think I have just forfeit my reviewer's paycheck. 

Now for the truth and nothing but the truth. The truth shall set you free.

The tubes are :-

GEC 6as7g - Holy grail. Need I say more. When you have this, your only regret is you have only one pair. You are not going to worry that your bank manager has turn to whisky in the morning. You are not going to worry that the sun don't shine because the GEC 6as7g will shine brighter than the sun.

Bendix 6080wb - If I need a Chief of Staff for my tube kingdom, this would be it. He will be my Secretary of State, Vice- President and everything except remember that the GEC 6as7g is the President. Don't you forget that.

Tung Sol 5998 - this is the jack of all trades and master of nearly all. They call him the benchmark but he's more useful off the bench believe me. 

GEC 6080 - ha a pretender to the throne, he almost succeeded but not quite. Might have the same GEC name but not really there compared to big brother GEC 6as7g. However at this level, you're comparing Lamborghini and Ferrari. For layman like me, I'll drive either one without complaining. Unfortunately I'm not a layman, so my vote is the GEC 6as7g.

There you go. Buy these tubes and live happily ever after.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Correct. You have been robbed of the stickers. GEC stickers are selling for a premium price on ebay. If you really need the stickers, I can sell you mine.


Just as long as they say "Made in UT's unpainted deck"!...


----------



## angpsi

Ok, now that I know my 6080 are truly GEC, I can safely use TOTL language and argue that they are truly something! Even this sounds better than ever before (here's the TIDAL link)! @HPLobster tell me if you like it so I can sustain my impression that we are of matching taste; I find this album awesome!


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Next I like to address is Tim's request for power tubes < $50.
> 
> First of all, at this price range, we are looking at farmers tubes. No schiit, I'm telling you. You get what you pay for. Decades of usage and users opinions have drawn a line in the sand. Believe me, shrewd sellers and buyers determine the price on ebay. The expensive tubes are expensive for a reason. People know they are good and their price will be set by consumer demands. Cheap tubes are cheap because they are less desirable.
> 
> ...





UntilThen said:


> Middle class tubes
> 
> These are the workers who gets tax the most but who has a voice that the government need to take heed. They are middle class America and that's about 80% we're talking. They work hard, pay more taxes, own more head-fis, vote when they are supposed to work and fight in the Vietnam wars. In other words, they are fair dinkum.
> 
> ...





UntilThen said:


> Aristocratic tubes aka Bill Gates tubes aka The Emperor's new clothes.
> 
> Rather than the same old boring tubes reviews, I'm presenting it in a new light. These tubes will make Thomas Edison proud. He wouldn't have dream that his light bulbs became sweet sounding valve - holy jupiters.
> 
> ...


@pctazhp, you need to pin this to the first post on this thread! Save many from spending more than they need to for an education.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 21, 2017)

angpsi said:


> @pctazhp, you need to pin this to the first post on this thread! Save many from spending more than they need to for an education.



I agree and give my consent. Rarely have I surpass myself but in this instance I have. I have given you a review of the power tubes without sending you to sleep. Make you want to spend more. All I hope is that you will have a continued marital bliss. If you do go bankrupt, know that you have at least gotten a taste of what it feels like being the President.


----------



## UntilThen

Now for a pictoral overview. A sample of what I consider 'choice' tubes for my tube amps. I haven't shown all the choice tubes. Such as the Bendix 6080wb and Tung Sol 5998 and Sylvania 6sn7w.

Darkvoice 336se - Sylvania 6sn7gtb and GEC 6as7g
Euforia - Tung Sol 6sn7gtb 1960s black base and GEC 6080
Elise - Sylvania 6sn7wgt and GEC 6as7g curve brown base.


----------



## connieflyer

UntilThen said:


> As I much as I love the GEC 6as7g, I need to move on to the Chatham 6080wb. Now this tone is interesting. It's not exactly the same as my pair of Bendix 6080wb. The Chatham seems to have more speed and sounded more dynamic. However I believe this tube to be very new. I wouldn't be surprised if it is completely unused. So burn in is probably necessary. Also, I'm listening to the Chatham 6080wb solid graphite plates on the DV 336se whereas I listen to the Bendix on Euforia or Elise.
> 
> Anyway, some close up pictures. As I said this tube is very new and I paid $35 for it.
> 
> @connieflyer  if your Raytheon 6080wb sounds the same as this, which I believe it does, you've got yourself a bargain and one of the finest power tubes for Elise and Euforia.


I would say the three that I have look just like this, and I thank you for advising me to get them, they are superb. Need to try these with the Sylvania 6sn7 when they get here


----------



## connieflyer

Hope it is not the inner tube for your bike I sent you!


----------



## UntilThen

CZ4A said:


> You're probably right about there being a compatibility issue with my amp. Unfortunately I don't have any other equipment that I can try the FDD20 in, so I'll likely sell these parts. Thanks for the reply UntilThen.



My pleasure CZ4A. As Regional Sales Manager Asia Pacific for Elise and Euforia, may I entice you to try these amps.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 21, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> I agree and give my consent. Rarely have I surpass myself but in this instance I have. I have given you a review of the power tubes without sending you to sleep. Make you want to spend more. All I hope is that you will have a continued marital bliss. If you do go bankrupt, know that you have at least gotten a taste of what it feels like being the President.


Can't spend anymore on tubes right now. I'm already going beyond my budget for an upgraded version of the bike I posted earlier! This one has an aluminum frame, a suspension fork, and a revised frame! Reserved straight out of the factory, it's not even on the official catalogue! Perhaps that's my Stavros moment!

@Tim Le, this costs less than one GEC 6as7g, at least with Langrex prices, and it will make a child happy!

#EDIT: Granted, though, my recent crop of tubes plus Elise have the potential to make at least _one_ grown-up happy too! And it's the one carrying the purse!


----------



## UntilThen

Let me tell you it's been a long time since I ride my bike. It's in the garage ever since I got into Head-Fi.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Let me tell you it's been a long time since I ride my bike. It's in the garage ever since I got into Head-Fi.


Cool bike, though! Were you pro or just enthusiast? Not that I know too many things about bikes...


----------



## angpsi

Still, I'm a good Googler: is it this one? https://www.specialized.com/us/en/sworks


----------



## angpsi

Indeed, this looks like the GEC 6as7g of bikes!
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/...roduct/specialized-roubaix-2017-review-50696/


----------



## UntilThen

That is not my bike but this one is. It is a Cannondale. I do have another Specialized Roubaix in the garage. 

Used to put the bike on my car's bike rack and go for my favourite bike ride. 80 kms weekend ride. How I miss those times. Head-fi has changed my life. I need to reset it.


----------



## UntilThen

@connieflyer  you're still reading through the thread.....


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> That is not my bike but this one is. It is a Cannondale. I do have another Specialized Roubaix in the garage.
> 
> Used to put the bike on my car's bike rack and go for my favourite bike ride. 80 kms weekend ride. How I miss those times. Head-fi has changed my life. I need to reset it.


Looking at where you live, you should definitely get out more! I live in the center of Athens; if I got a Roubaix I'd either get mugged or run over by inconsiderate drivers on the street!


----------



## connieflyer

Yes, I am trying to comply with your directives of mighty one!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Looking at where you live, you should definitely get out more! I live in the center of Athens; if I got a Roubaix I'd either get mugged or run over by inconsiderate drivers on the street!



Damm so no cycling holiday in Greece for me.


----------



## myphone

Tim Le said:


> I should've been more clear. What're some recommendations for power tubes under $50/pair?



Check eBay frequently. I have gotten quite a few pairs of NIB Tungsol 6080 tube for $20/pair in recent months.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Damm so no cycling holiday in Greece for me.


We do have beautiful mountains for the purpose. They come with amazing traditional settlements, some of which are remodelled into hotels! E.g., look at where I'm going early August, contrary to the mainstream preference for the islands:
http://www.booking.com/Share-Tvr6AV


----------



## pctazhp

Who the heck is in charge around here??? This place had become a nice, comfortable sleepy hollow and then the Tasmanian Dust Devil comes back into town and there is debris everywhere. So Reviewer Supremus UT gets all the glory and I have to do the dirty work of pinning his towering masterpiece to the first page - which I will do later after I have had 4 or 5 cups of coffee and performed my assigned morning domestic chores.


----------



## connieflyer

You are a good man pct, a little misguided perhaps,, but a good man none the less


----------



## mordy

Here is my bike - a Trek FX 2 hybrid. Costs about the same as a pair of GEC 6AS7G.





This is a great bike. Where I live there are many abandoned railroad beds that have been paved over and made into bike and walking paths. Never more than 2% grade, and often going through beautiful wooded areas - perfect for a septuagenarian.

I go biking with a couple of friends once a week, summer and winter. Well, if it gets colder than than 37 F it gets too cold and I take a break. In addition there are many parks with paved trails, and best of all, no cars allowed, so it is pretty safe.


----------



## pctazhp

Pinning duty performed.


----------



## angpsi

The Sylvania 6sn7w are here! These came all the way from France. Their previous owner was living on "Rue du Soleil"; a good sign perhaps?


----------



## UntilThen

Hahaha you guys never fail to amazed me. @angpsi I want to come to Greece and stay in that place where you posted that lovely accommodation. Looks like Little Red Riding Hood lives there.

And @mordy I want to come and cycle with you. Both bike and path look nice although I'm more of speed rider or ghost rider?

@pctazhp what can I say. We owe you a mountain of gratitude and will buy you that little bicycle that apsi posted. Not only did you start this thread but you stay around and maintain it. That's dedications.

@connieflyer you deserve an award too for classic one liners. Hollywood needs you as a speech writer.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> The Sylvania 6sn7w are here! These came all the way from France. Their previous owner was living on "Rue du Soleil"; a good sign perhaps?



Looks good. Tell us what you hear. 6sn7w has a distinctive tone.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> #EDIT: Granted, though, my recent crop of tubes plus Elise have the potential to make at least _one_ grown-up happy too! And it's the one carrying the purse!



Who? The girl next door?


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> You are a good man pct, a little misguided perhaps,, but a good man none the less



Why am I tickled reading this?


----------



## Oskari

myphone said:


> Elise is a single-end design. only one of the two 6SN7 triodes is used per channel.


No, the sections are run in parallel.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> My definition of bargain in this case would be less than the Langrex price. But I think you mentioned something like $80 per tube?



Have I misguided you again? $80 is for the single used GEC 6as7g. The NOS pair of GEC 6as7g price is classified information that is locked in the US Treasury for 50 years. Tubes of this vintage and condition deserve a spot on the fireplace, where everyone can see when they walk in through the front door.

Btw, Stavros is a gentleman and an absolutely courteous and polite person to talk to. Never condescending and always willing to discuss Head-Fi with humility. He does have one more GEC 6as7g with black base that is in good condition and other tubes. So speak to him if you are interested.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> No, the sections are run in parallel.



Thanks Oskari. You're a good man too and never misguided. I concur with the '...running in parallel'. That's why Elise and Euforia sounds so good.


----------



## UntilThen

Now to change the tone.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> ... but mine are empty where the latter have their GEC sticker; so it must be worn out on both tubes.


Or yours never had them. The UK government wasn't that interested in colourful stickers. Btw, the Z refers to the MOV/GEC factory in Hammersmith, London.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Or yours never had them. The UK government wasn't that interested in colourful stickers. Btw, the Z refers to the MOV/GEC factory in Hammersmith, London.



Correct. These tubes were right in the thick of battle...in the trenches of WW2. The last thing it needs are colourful stickers that sticks out to give the camouflage away.


----------



## connieflyer

UntilThen said:


> Now to change the tone.



Wow, after watching all the video, just realized it was not in English!


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> Or yours never had them. The UK government wasn't that interested in colourful stickers. Btw, the Z refers to the MOV/GEC factory in Hammersmith, London.


Good to hear that! Hammersmith is good, right?


----------



## UntilThen

There cometh a time, there cometh a man and there cometh an amp and what you get is euphoria and contentment.

When I started out, I met a Head-fier name HeatFan, who has SinglePower MPX3, Extreme, Woo Audio Wa2 and Darkvoice 336se. A very nice man I'd say and he has a vast collection of 6sn7 and 6as7. He was happy and did not go any further. All he had for headphones was the HD650 and DT880, lots of Grados, UltraOnes. An average Audio Gd dac. He was happy. Anyone could be happy with that.

Lesson I learnt from HF is that I could be happy now. Enough OTL amps and nearly enough tubes. I am going to enjoy my music from here on.... and I hope you do too.

Oh... I will do a synopsis of 6sn7 at some point. Well just those that I have.... I could not possibly cover every 6sn7 under the sun but I will have a good cross section of it.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 21, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Good to hear that! Hammersmith is good, right?



Hammersmith is where King Arthur as a boy, pull out the sword in the stone....

or where the sword was forged with the hammers... something like that.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Who? The girl next door?


I meant the money purse. Or should I have said "wallet"?


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Btw, Stavros is a gentleman and an absolutely courteous and polite person to talk to. Never condescending and always willing to discuss Head-Fi with humility. He does have one more GEC 6as7g with black base that is in good condition and other tubes. So speak to him if you are interested.


As I said: I have to buy a bike now. Thank God it's not a Specialized Roubaix...

Looking forward to meeting Stavros some day in the - hopefully - not too distant future though; indeed he sounds like a great guy!


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 21, 2017)

Believe me all you need is a Specialized Roubaix and the wind against your face.

Freedom comes with a racing bicycle.

I got my Roubaix cheap. Only 2 grand.


----------



## UntilThen

Then I change the wheels to a higher model just like I change the tubes in my amps.

Some things never change.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Then I change the wheels to a higher model just like I change the tubes in my amps.
> 
> Some things never change.


Hahaha! Indeed! Signing off, goodnight! Tomorrow I'll get back with the 6sn7w on my Hammersmith GEC..,


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,

Did the wheels cost more than the bike?


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 21, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Did the wheels cost more than the bike?



Don't ask

Similarly did my tubes cost more than Elise? Don't ask.

In a racing bicycle, the wheels makes a big difference.

Similarly in an OTL amp the tubes makes a big difference.

Is it worth it upgrading in both instance. Definitely.


----------



## mordy (Jun 21, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Don't ask
> 
> Similarly did my tubes cost more than Elise? Don't ask.
> 
> ...




Just got an email that Massdrop is repeating their deal on the Sennheiser HD650 starting June 26. Limited to 7500 customers. The price has increased to $250 from $200; shipping is free.
The HD 6XX Returns


It’s no secret that the *Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX* is the hands-down most requested, most talked-about product on Massdrop. And now, we’re excited to bring it back for an encore. A modern take on the HD 650, this headphone has the Sennheiser sound you know and love, plus a darker colorway, a detachable 6-foot cable, and a more user-friendly connector.


It’ll be available starting *Monday, June 26 at 6 a.m. PT* for $249.99 with free domestic and international shipping. Click “Request” on the drop page below to be notified at this time. This drop is limited to 7,500 serialized units.

 SEE DROP

It should be noted that the discounted street price is $316.00 at this time:


----------



## UntilThen

In my opinion the HD650 is a very enjoyable headphone with Elise and Euforia.... esp one with a silver cable.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 22, 2017)

The 6sn7 tubes have landed. So have a pair of RCA 6as7g new old stock. I can't believe how new these tubes look and the cheap price I paid from 2 aussie sellers. Sometimes you get a windfall such as this and it makes you really happy that you are not paying crazy prices.

These 7 tubes cost me US$120.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm going to talk about these RCA 6as7g first. Tubes cost me $40 a pair and new. Bargain !

I didn't rubbish this tubes yesterday. I said I was intrigued with them. Now having listened to them, I am indeed very intrigued by them. They are actually very good.... well with brighter headphones such as HD800 and T1. I could easily have elevated these RCA 6as7g to middle class, instead of farmers tubes. Beware though. Prices for these new have gone up quite dramatically. 

They aren't just bass heavy and mid range prominence but overall, I detect no coarseness. Typical 6as7 sound, which is more textured and more layers. More warm and lushness. A perfect recipe for a cold winter's night. These will now be my daily power tubes, whilst the premium tubes are reserved for weekend listening. These and the Svetlana 6H13C will be my workers tubes. Can't go wrong here.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Good to hear that! Hammersmith is good, right?


Yes, it was their most important tube plant.


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> Yes, it was their most important tube plant.


Well, they sound like it!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to some of the new arrivals (6sn7) with various power tubes. Not going to give any impressions any time soon but my smile is as wide as a lunar eclipse.

Now the question I ask myself is, 'Why didn't I roll with 6sn7 and 6as7 at the start some 1.5 years ago?' These are great musical unadulterated tones, that has a kind of pureness, with no fear of noise being induced from cheap 3rd party adapters. This is how Elise and Euforia should roll.... for me. I won't say any negative thing against anyone wishing to roll with non recommended tubes but this is how I will do it from here on.

This is what I'm listening with at the moment. RCA 6sn7gtb (1960s I think) with Gec 6as7g.

This is the description from the seller of the RCA 7sn7gtb.
_Strong and matched used pair of RCA USA made 6SN7GTB twin triode tubes with offset black plates, long D getters, short black bases and tall clear glass. These tubes have the wire at the top across the top mica that joins the heaters. _

ps.... these RCA 6sn7gtb are some of Mordy's favourite 6sn7.


----------



## angpsi

I've been spending this morning with the Sylvania 6sn7w / GEC 6080. The Sylvania 6sn7w sound like a very potent, dynamic, and in some cases extremely resolving pair. I'm not sure about the differences with the 6sn7wgt. As I was listening to the latter yesterday, I found myself thinking that I could stay with these and never look back for a long time—at least on my Elise / HD600 / Meridian Explorer 2 combo. In this respect, the 6sn7w didn't blow my mind. I wonder whether their sound will open up in time (quite possibly so—I mean, the 6sn7wgt did).

The HD600 scale like crazy though, I can honestly say that with confidence now. I'm extremely happy with the sound I'm getting out of them! It sounds like true to the recording, 'high fidelity' indeed.


----------



## UntilThen

The NAD M51 at $750 aussie dollars sounds like incredible value. This is being offered now at the local classified.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I've been spending this morning with the Sylvania 6sn7w / GEC 6080. The Sylvania 6sn7w sound like a very potent, dynamic, and in some cases extremely resolving pair. I'm not sure about the differences with the 6sn7wgt. As I was listening to the latter yesterday, I found myself thinking that I could stay with these and never look back for a long time—at least on my Elise / HD600 / Meridian Explorer 2 combo. In this respect, the 6sn7w didn't blow my mind.



I'm going to wait for all of you who have bought the 6sn7w to give your impressions first. I know what the differences are between Sylvania 6sn7wgt and 6sn7w but I want to hear what you guys think first.

See, I'm not just looking at your impressions of the tubes alone but I am noting the gear you're listening it with as well, in particular the headphone you're using. Remember it's about synergy. Bright tubes and bright headphones does not constitute a musical listening experience. Likewise warm tubes and warm headphones will turn your seat into a hot spring. Now you don't want to soak in a 40 degrees centigrade hot spring all day do you? You're likely to get a severe case of conjunctivitis of the bum.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> The HD600 scale like crazy though, I can honestly say that with confidence now. I'm extremely happy with the sound I'm getting out of them! It sounds like true to the recording, 'high fidelity' indeed.



True. The HD600 is a very good headphone with OTL amps such as Elise but HD800 is a different animal. It's a werewolf that transform with the bad moon rising. If you think the HD600 scale like crazy, wait till you listen to the HD800 with Elise and good tubes and a revealing dac. Then the HD800 will scale and you will go crazy.... very very crazy.


----------



## UntilThen

These Hitachi tubes are crazily good. All 4 tubes spot a different brand but they clearly have the same constructions and as the seller stated, they are Hitachi tubes. All 4 are brand spanking new.

Now Hitachi as a corporation is big, very big. They ranked 38th in the Fortune Global 500. In Australia they feature prominently in construction machinery. So why would they bother with tubes or valve? Maybe Mr Hitachi was a tube lover.... long ago I mean. They don't make tubes anymore.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> I've been spending this morning with the Sylvania 6sn7w / GEC 6080. The Sylvania 6sn7w sound like a very potent, dynamic, and in some cases extremely resolving pair. I'm not sure about the differences with the 6sn7wgt. As I was listening to the latter yesterday, I found myself thinking that I could stay with these and never look back for a long time—at least on my Elise / HD600 / Meridian Explorer 2 combo. In this respect, the 6sn7w didn't blow my mind. I wonder whether their sound will open up in time (quite possibly so—I mean, the 6sn7wgt did).
> 
> The HD600 scale like crazy though, I can honestly say that with confidence now. I'm extremely happy with the sound I'm getting out of them! It sounds like true to the recording, 'high fidelity' indeed.



I stupidly paid $300 for my pair of the Ws, and wish I had the money back. I find the W boring and un-involving compared to the WGT. Maybe your Ws will open up. Mine never did.

I've never heard the HD600, but have read a lot of good things about it. The HD800 routinely receives glowing praise here. I've never heard it either, and as far as I can remember I'm the only F-A amp owner who has the HD800S. I love mine and there are many on the HD800S thread who feel the same way. Perhaps it is not as "resolving" as the Classic, but I don't think Senn spent 5 years of research and is selling the S at a significantly higher price than the Classic just to push an inferior headphone.


----------



## UntilThen

I was very keen on the Raytheon 6sn7gt black glass. It is NOS and unused. So I was eager to try it out in DV 336se with a single GEC 6as7g but alas it hums !!!

 

However when I put it in Elise, there is zero hum. Zip, zip quiet. Here paired with a RCA 6sn7gt. Who says you can't mixed and match. I detect no unbalance but pure euphony. I think this weekend will be a washout, listening to music instead of painting the deck !!!  I'll get Finn to paint it while I indulge in my tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I stupidly paid $300 for my pair of the Ws, and wish I had the money back. I find the W boring and un-involving compared to the WGT. Maybe your Ws will open up. Mine never did.



Really? 

I'm really surprised that you guys impressions of the 6sn7w are so contrary to what I hear and to the sage of old impressions. It's unanimous decisions from the wise men of old that these are the best sounding 6sn7. What I hear is ultimate refinement and resolution. Pure class. 

You may sell the 6sn7w to me for $30. I will take it off your hands.....


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Really?
> 
> I'm really surprised that you guys impressions of the 6sn7w are so contrary to what I hear and to the sage of old impressions. It's unanimous decisions from the wise men of old that these are the best sounding 6sn7. What I hear is ultimate refinement and resolution. Pure class.
> 
> You may sell the 6sn7w to me for $30. I will take it off your hands.....



I am a man of the 21st century, ergo old sages mean nothing to me. Of course, I may have gotten an old-sage-reject pair of Ws, and I wouldn't want to deplete your deck-paint fund by unloading it on you.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 22, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> Perhaps it is not as "resolving" as the Classic, but I don't think Senn spent 5 years of research and is selling the S at a significantly higher price than the Classic just to push an inferior headphone.



My opinion is that Sennheiser cave in and gave the public the upgraded HD650 they have been begging... in the form of the HD800S. Even if the 2 versions are the same price, I will still buy the HD800. The resolution that the HD800S is missing compared to the HD800 is significant. 

Remember this is very subjective and depends on who hears it. Personal preference plays a big part here. Forget about measurements. Trust your ears. There is no right or wrong. Neither is the definitive better headphone. It depends on who you ask.


----------



## UntilThen

To quotes Len and I agree with his one liner description because that's what I hear.

"Sylvania 6SN7W has strong bass and is full, but I wouldn't say it's romantic or warm (though it is very musical IMO)." -Len

IMO, 6sn7w is on the bright side of neutral but not by much. It is forward sounding and have impact. It is a lively tone compared to Sylvania 6sn7wgt, which is more relaxed and warmer. Perhaps you guys just prefer that kind of tone. Nothing wrong with having a personal preference.


----------



## connieflyer

PCT, maybe you should consider this instead of gumby,  Stereophile gave it a good write up https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-m51-direct-digital-da-converter



UntilThen said:


> The NAD M51 at $750 aussie dollars sounds like incredible value. This is being offered now at the local classified.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> PCT, maybe you should consider this instead of gumby,  Stereophile gave it a good write up https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-m51-direct-digital-da-converter



You are asking a Schiit fan to jump ship.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> My opinion is that Sennheiser cave in and gave the public the upgraded HD650 they have been begging... in the form of the HD800S. Even if the 2 versions are the same price, I will still buy the HD800. The resolution that the HD800S is missing compared to the HD800 is significant.



Having never heard the Classic I can't really argue with you. However, there are plenty of people on HeadFi, including those who have owned both, who don't concur with your assessment that the difference in resolution is "significant".

I didn't try the Classic because of the problem I had with the treble spike in the HD700. Perhaps purists have the ability to ignore that spike in the Classic. Anyway, we plebeian tin-ear members of the great unwashed public seem to be happy with what Senn has provided us in the S, as the price differential with the Classic is holding pretty stable


----------



## pctazhp

The Naim diesn't come in black so that is out. Plus, I didn't go through the long period of suffering I had to endure to gain some respect for Schiit multbit DACs on F-A threads to abandon Schiit at this point. Availability (if and when) of black Gumby = new DAC for pctazhp. Only drawback is I will have to endure UT telling me that Schiit just caved in by offering ignorant consumers who don't know any better a DAC that is "significantly" inferior to Yiggy.


----------



## connieflyer

Does anyone know how to jump to a particular page? This new form still has a lot of dork in it.  If you load a page that is a page or two that you missed, I can't seem to go back one or two pages.  If you hit prev it takes you all the way to page one. Thanks.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Does anyone know how to jump to a particular page? This new form still has a lot of dork in it.  If you load a page that is a page or two that you missed, I can't seem to go back one or two pages.  If you hit prev it takes you all the way to page one. Thanks.



Don't know why you are having that problem. When I hit Prev I just go back one page. Strange. 

The main problem I still have with the new format is it won't show us who is online for a particular thread, I can't see a way to search a keyword in an individual thread, and there doesn't seem a way to go to a particular page in a thread by number. I assume those problems can't be fixed or they are not high priority.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Now Hitachi as a corporation is big, very big. They ranked 38th in the Fortune Global 500. In Australia they feature prominently in construction machinery. So why would they bother with tubes or valve? Maybe Mr Hitachi was a tube lover.... long ago I mean. They don't make tubes anymore.


They've made many things.


----------



## connieflyer

Just now I tried it and it would go back one page, but before always to beginning of thread. Still don't see any way to go to a particular page number.


----------



## tjw321

connieflyer said:


> Just now I tried it and it would go back one page, but before always to beginning of thread. Still don't see any way to go to a particular page number.


If you click on the arrows to the lafet and right of the page buttons, you can make the page numbers on display page back and forth to get to the one you want.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Still don't see any way to go to a particular page number.


You can edit the address. The address of this page has page-585 at the end.


----------



## connieflyer

Got it working now, thanks


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

I'm really enjoying the 6SN7W's can't decide if I prefer them with the Marconi 6080's or the Sylvania 6080's the Marconi's have more warmth - I'm sure their Tung Sol's rebadged, I'm sure one of you could confirm or suggest who they are made by?
Have some Chatham 6080WB's to try them with (Tung Sol again), looking forward to trying these when I have time. Have a pair of Ken-Rad 6F8G's arriving some time soon, hoping these may be worth listening to. Have been listening with the MrSpeakers
Aeon's, they are beginning to sound great.


----------



## Oskari

SnapperMusicFan said:


> the Marconi's have more warmth - I'm sure their Tung Sol's rebadged


Yes, I still think so.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Thanks Oskari 


Oskari said:


> Yes, I still think so.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> True. The HD600 is a very good headphone with OTL amps such as Elise but HD800 is a different animal. It's a werewolf that transform with the bad moon rising. If you think the HD600 scale like crazy, wait till you listen to the HD800 with Elise and good tubes and a revealing dac. Then the HD800 will scale and you will go crazy.... very very crazy.


Mental note to self: "Keep your focus: you have to buy a _bike_; you _have_ to buy a bike; *you* *have* to buy a bike..."


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Mental note to self: "Keep your focus: you have to buy a _bike_; you _have_ to buy a bike; *you* *have* to buy a bike..."



Mental note to yourself... a bike is a HD800, a HD800 is a Yggy. 

Alright I won't trouble you anymore. Just buy the bike and make your little girl the happiest child in town. If I had a bike when I was young, I would be over the moon. Instead I had to sit on my brother's back and pretend he is the bike. Those were the days when having fun, means playing marbles and flying kites.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Having never heard the Classic I can't really argue with you. However, there are plenty of people on HeadFi, including those who have owned both, who don't concur with your assessment that the difference in resolution is "significant".
> 
> I didn't try the Classic because of the problem I had with the treble spike in the HD700. Perhaps purists have the ability to ignore that spike in the Classic. Anyway, we plebeian tin-ear members of the great unwashed public seem to be happy with what Senn has provided us in the S, as the price differential with the Classic is holding pretty stable



Price differential between the 2 headphones at Addicted To Audio sale now is only $200. Both versions on sale.

Many people on Head-Fi may not concur with my assessment but at the same time, many people in the audio universe concur with my supreme assessment. 

Anyway, I have deviated too far. It's wrong to start a headphone war. Let others enjoy their preferred HP and model. Both versions are good in the right setup. I do know that I prefer the Senns in my stable now more than the lone Beyer. Again it's my preference. My apologies to those Beyer's fan. Remember I was once a die hard T1 fan. It was my Top One not too long ago.


----------



## UntilThen

SnapperMusicFan said:


> I'm really enjoying the 6SN7W's can't decide if I prefer them with the Marconi 6080's or the Sylvania 6080's the Marconi's have more warmth - I'm sure their Tung Sol's rebadged, I'm sure one of you could confirm or suggest who they are made by?
> Have some Chatham 6080WB's to try them with (Tung Sol again), looking forward to trying these when I have time. Have a pair of Ken-Rad 6F8G's arriving some time soon, hoping these may be worth listening to. Have been listening with the MrSpeakers
> Aeon's, they are beginning to sound great.



Phew finally someone else likes the 6sn7w besides me. I was worried it might be worth only $1 by month's end at the rate negative reviews about it are going..... but that would be a good outcome !!!

SMF, nice picture of the 6sn7w and Marconi 6080. You will love the Chatham 6080wb. Great tubes. Remember, they are my Chief of Staff. 

At some point I will try a pair of Tung Sol or Sylvania 6F8G. I need to get hold of some quality adapters though. I am afraid I might have to battle hum once I dive into these. I really don't want to mess with adapters again. Time will tell....

Sounds like you've some really interesting headphones there.


----------



## UntilThen

tjw321 said:


> If you click on the arrows to the lafet and right of the page buttons, you can make the page numbers on display page back and forth to get to the one you want.



Hello TJ. We don't hear from you much but it's good to see you're still around. Hope all is well with you and you're still loving Elise in wonderland.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> They've made many things.



Omg I'm dancing like the girl in the picture now, listening to the Hitachi 6sn7gtb with RCA 6as7g or GEC 6as7g.

Whilst the RCA 6sn7gtb sounds more plump and have richer harmonic texture, these Hitachi tubes wears Nike's Air Max. They float, they bounce and they roll with a gymnast's suppleness and athleticism. These sound like the Emperor's tubes with a pauper's price. How good is that?

So go and scout for Hitachi and buy those construction machinery.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Omg I'm dancing like the girl in the picture now, listening to the Hitachi 6sn7gtb with RCA 6as7g or GEC 6as7g.
> 
> Whilst the RCA 6sn7gtb sounds more plump and have richer harmonic texture, these Hitachi tubes wears Nike's Air Max. They float, they bounce and they roll with a gymnast's suppleness and athleticism. These sound like the Emperor's tubes with a pauper's price. How good is that?
> 
> So go and scout for Hitachi and buy those construction machinery.


I'm glad you like them. There's always the chance that they're too vivid for some tastes/systems.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 22, 2017)

Oskari said:


> I'm glad you like them. There's always the chance that they're too vivid for some tastes/systems.



Vivid's probably too strong a term. Certainly not as vivid as C3g. However the Hitachis pairs well with RCA 6as7g which does tone it down to the right ambience temperature. In fact, it will pair well with any 6as7.

Speaking of C3g, does no one want to buy my nearly new Valvo C3g/s  .... yes with the 'S' .... the supreme version.  It comes with free adapters.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Speaking of C3g, does no one want to buy my nearly new Valvo C3g/s .... yes with the 'S' .... the supreme version.  It comes with free adapters.


I'd take them but you're so far away and outside of the union (EU).


----------



## Tim Le (Jun 22, 2017)

Hey guys, lots of comparisons between the T1 (gen 1) and HD800, but I was hoping for some impressions from those of you who've heard both through the Elise.

If you were only able to keep either the T1 (gen 1) or the HD800 with the Elise, which one would it be, and why?

Thanks all


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 22, 2017)

Tim Le said:


> Hey guys, lots of comparisons between the T1 (gen 1) and HD800, but I was hoping for some impressions from those of you who've heard both through the Elise.
> 
> If you were only able to keep either the T1 (gen 1) or the HD800 with the Elise, which one would it be, and why?
> 
> Thanks all



I'd keep the HD800 and there's no why because my ears tells me so. 

Give me the weekend to ponder why I prefer the HD800 over my once favourite headphone, the T1 original..... and I'll produce my thesis on it.

The thoughts are all in my head. I just need to put pen to paper... I mean to this thread with golden needles.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 22, 2017)

Oskari said:


> I'd take them but you're so far away and outside of the union (EU).



Hello Oskari. 

Love conquers distance. If you like it take it .... together with the Mullard ECC31 plus adapters for a good discount and the gigantic shipping fees.

These 2 drivers were my favourites a year ago but now I'm retired to the monastery in the mountain to meditate on a quiet life with 6sn7 and 6as7. They calm my chi and gives me utopia.

This 'is' my meditative stance.


 


This 'was' my meditative stance.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Love conquers distance.


Yes, but not the customs officials.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Yes, but not the customs officials.



Alright, why don't you come downunder with the other 3 and help paint my deck and make some Agave juice.... and bring these home.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Alright, why don't you come downunder with the other 3 and help paint my deck and make some Agave juice.... and bring these home.


Weren't you supposed to take a Baltic cruise?


----------



## UntilThen

Thats next Sept 2018..... oh you mean drop it to you Finland?

Now thats a thought. Why didnt i think about that.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Alright, why don't you come downunder with the other 3 and help paint my deck and make some Agave juice.... and bring these home.


I'm not saying that this couldn't happen!


----------



## connieflyer

Between the two headphones when I had the Elise I've preferred the 800 over the T one. I only had the Beyer for a month before one of the drivers started to fail went to the 800 after that and never looked back. I much prefer the comfort and the resolution on the 800. I listened long term and the $800 to me was much more comfortable. Of course this is just my opinion. Now with the Euforia the sound is even better.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> t's wrong to start a headphone war. Let others enjoy their preferred HP and model.



No headphone war?????? Where's the fun in that??????


----------



## connieflyer

Not looking to start a war just answering a question


----------



## pctazhp

@Tim Le   While not directly on point to you questions of HD800 and T1Gen1, many moons ago I did an in depth comparison of HD800S and T1 Gen 2. I'm embarrassed to link to that comparison but I will. 

See:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/9480#post_12515154 Post 12205

http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/10125#post_12563967

You'd have to read through both to see what I decided, and then you wouldn't even know for sure just from the 2 posts. Bottom line is I kept the HD800S and sent the T1 back.

For a more current post saying what I think of the HD800S, see https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/sennheiser-hd800s-unveiled.785577/page-411#post-13554518

Not trying to start an armed conflict. Just responding to question.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Not looking to start a war just answering a question



Me too, but as a lawyer I hate any hint of conflict resolution!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm a mercenary for hire and Sennheiser has paid me a blank cheque to say HD800 is the best... even better than the S.

Actually i get paid with a free Orpheus with the marble base.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> I'm not saying that this couldn't happen!



Good i will buy one more paint brush for you.


----------



## Tim Le (Jun 23, 2017)

It was not my intention to start a headphone war. I just wanted some honest opinions between the two headphones with relationship to the Elise 

Thank you PCT for your comparison of the two.. it sounds to me like the T1 would be my headphone of preference. It was my initial assumption that the HD800 has more detail and sparkle than the T1, but your review states the opposite. I don't think the T1 treble will be a problem for me. For reference, I own Beyer DT 990s, and I can listen to them for hours without fatigue on the Elise.

However, it seems like 3/3 of you prefer the HD800 > T1. Maybe my best bet is to buy both on Amazon and send back the ones that I least prefer


----------



## DavidA

Tim Le said:


> It was not my intention to start a headphone war. I just wanted some honest opinions between the two headphones with relationship to the Elise
> 
> Thank you PCT for your comparison of the two.. it sounds to me like the T1 would be my headphone of preference. It was my initial assumption that the HD800 has more detail and sparkle than the T1, but your review states the opposite. I don't think the T1 treble will be a problem for me. For reference, I own Beyer DT 990s, and I can listen to them for hours without fatigue on the Elise.
> 
> However, it seems like 3/3 of you prefer the HD800 > T1. Maybe my best bet is to buy both on Amazon and send back the ones that I least prefer



I still have both my HD800 and T1g1, I keep both since they are different enough in sound signature to me.  The T1 is the more "fun" sounding of the two and to me has a touch more bass, could also be that the mids are not as forward.  To me the HD800 can sometimes sound weird for vocals depending on the recording due to overly wide sound stage while the T1 has never made vocals sound weird but its a bit too recessed at times so depending on the genre of music one might prefer one or the other, its why I keep both.


----------



## UntilThen

Nah headphone war was between hd800 and hd800s. Not with T1.

If I had a new T1, I might like it just as much as hd800 probably. Being older, comfort of the T1 is sadly lacking. With hd800, its like an extension of your head.

Believe me comfort plays a big part when you use the headphones for many hours. I find hd800 and hd650 supremely comfortable.

Both headphones are still very desirable. If I had to get a T1 again it would be the gen 2.

Getting both to try out first would be a good idea.

For me, I just prefer hd800 tone more than T1. Hd800 is more relaxed surprisingly whereas T1 has a harder hitting, more energetic tone. T1 feels sharper to my ears too. On the whole, I prefer Sennheiser trio (hd800, hd650, hd600) more than Beyer T1, Dt990 and Dt880.


----------



## UntilThen

My search for the best drivers have ended. This is it folks.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-base-...758331?hash=item2a85d1fe7b:g:EWEAAOSwbopZTILI


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

UntilThen said:


> My search for the best drivers have ended. This is it folks.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-base-...758331?hash=item2a85d1fe7b:g:EWEAAOSwbopZTILI


They ought to be diamond encrusted or at least gold plated for that price, do they come with a free bicycle?.......


----------



## tjw321

UntilThen said:


> Hello TJ. We don't hear from you much but it's good to see you're still around. Hope all is well with you and you're still loving Elise in wonderland.


I don't have enough spare time to post much but I'm still reading every post on the Elise and Euphoria threads. Wait, maybe that's why I don't have the spare time!
I'm still using my Bimby/Elise combo every night - that's more time gone!
The Euphoria is a bit beyond my budget ATM, but that was true of the T1's for about 2 years and I got there in the end. But truly, I'm happy with my Elise so that upgrade may never happen.


----------



## UntilThen

SnapperMusicFan said:


> They ought to be diamond encrusted or at least gold plated for that price, do they come with a free bicycle?.......



Yes they do come with a bicycle and a bell. @angpsi buy this and get the bicycle.


----------



## UntilThen

tjw321 said:


> I don't have enough spare time to post much but I'm still reading every post on the Elise and Euphoria threads. Wait, maybe that's why I don't have the spare time!
> I'm still using my Bimby/Elise combo every night - that's more time gone!
> The Euphoria is a bit beyond my budget ATM, but that was true of the T1's for about 2 years and I got there in the end. But truly, I'm happy with my Elise so that upgrade may never happen.



TJ, you warm my heart, you really do. I never knew anyone really read all the post here and on Euforia's thread... and I'm posting like a maniac .... and jabbing @pctazhp every odd days and teasing @connieflyer every even days. That's life in Elise in Wonderland.

Anyhoo, I think you're at the sweet spot with Bimby > Elise > T1 Gen 2. Most could have call this the end and not have any need to upgrade anymore. Believe me, I really do think that. Once you upgrade beyond that, you start to get really crazy.... I mean really crazy. Crazy in price, crazy in sound, crazy in euphoria. I don't even know how to put this in words. Did I ever regret upgrading beyond the sweet spot? No.  Did I enjoy it? You bet.  Is it worth upgrading? Haha ..... why do you think I am posting like a maniac.  Would I do anything different if I had to start on a clean slate? Nope.. nada... never.. ever... this is it. It can't get better than this.... if it does .... show me.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> The main problem I still have with the new format is it won't show us who is online for a particular thread



Correct. I need to see if anyone is reading my mercurial posts. Too many readers and I get stage fright. Too little, I might get no inspirations. However mostly I just write to release the chi in me as I listen to music. Those words just come out like the musical notes. That's how good lyrics are born....

'Hello darkness my old friend, Why do you come to see me again?' Don't you even think of borrowing my tubes Mr Darkness !!!!!!!


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> TJ, you warm my heart, you really do. I never knew anyone really read all the post here and on Euforia's thread... and I'm posting like a maniac .... and jabbing @pctazhp every odd days and teasing @connieflyer every even days. That's life in Elise in Wonderland.
> 
> Anyhoo, I think you're at the sweet spot with Bimby > Elise > T1 Gen 2. Most could have call this the end and not have any need to upgrade anymore. Believe me, I really do think that. Once you upgrade beyond that, you start to get really crazy.... I mean really crazy. Crazy in price, crazy in sound, crazy in euphoria. I don't even know how to put this in words. Did I ever regret upgrading beyond the sweet spot? No.  Did I enjoy it? You bet.  Is it worth upgrading? Haha ..... why do you think I am posting like a maniac.  Would I do anything different if I had to start on a clean slate? Nope.. nada... never.. ever... this is it. It can't get better than this.... if it does .... show me.



I've gotten to the point in life where I don't trust anything, including my own calendar. So I don't know if this is an odd or even day. But I  agree with you. And I begrudgingly have to admit you have a special way with words. I always read your posts. Don't know if you consider that I'm a part of your old friend "darkness" ))))

Bimby/Elise/T1 seems like a great dividing line between a solid system and when further improvement starts to become crazy. But "crazy" can always be fun, if funds permit


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Me too, but as a lawyer I hate any hint of conflict resolution!!!!



As a headphoneus supremus reviewer, I'll give you cornflakes, conflict, constants and more..... it is said that Shakespeare couldn't stop once he started writing.... till they take the pen away from him.

So try and stop me..... Mr Law Ear.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> So try and stop me..... Mr Law Ear.



I've never tried to stand in the way of pure genius.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> My search for the best drivers have ended. This is it folks.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-base-...758331?hash=item2a85d1fe7b:g:EWEAAOSwbopZTILI



Clearly a sensible purchase if ever I have seen one. I'll be anxiously waiting for your review


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> And I begrudgingly have to admit you have a special way with words. I always read your posts. Don't know if you consider that I'm a part of your old friend "darkness" ))))



Now I'm reeeeeeeally getting worried. There is a darkness reading all my posts !!! 

Moderator !!!!    I need all my posts archived and erased from this forum..... and published again 50 years from now.

The trick to having a special ways with words is to listen to music with HD800 on the head, powered by Euforia, which in turn has Sylvania 6sn7w and Gec 6as7g in it and fed by the world tree, Yggdrasil. Believe me, once you have that, the words just come naturally, organically, holographically and euphorically.


----------



## pctazhp

UT. You aren't quite there yet. I have contacted HiFiMan about shipment to Sydney for Christmas. Just my modest way of adding light to darkness. If you buy one in the meantime, let me know. I'll send you a box of Cactus Candy for Christmas instead.

http://hifiman.com/products/detail/275


----------



## UntilThen

It


pctazhp said:


> UT. You aren't quite there yet. I have contacted HiFiMan about shipment to Sydney for Christmas. Just my modest way of adding light to darkness. If you buy one in the meantime, let me know. I'll send you a box of Cactus Candy for Christmas instead.
> 
> http://hifiman.com/products/detail/275



Susvara? A heavenly voice? Sweetly voice? Gimme a break HiFi Man. Even HiFi Woman don't charge $6000 for her headphones. No headphones should be more expensive than the Focal Utopia because Utopia in Tyll Hansen's words, is the Supreme Being, the ruler of the universe of headphones. Think beryllium, the world most scare resources.....

and I unashamedly copied this from Wikinonsense... 

_*Beryllium* is a chemical element with symbol *Be* and atomic number 4. It is a relatively rare element in the universe, usually occurring as a product of the spallation of larger atomic nuclei that have collided with cosmic rays. Within the cores of stars beryllium is depleted as it is fused and creates larger elements._


----------



## UntilThen

Damm it, now I have to answer to the Darkvoice 336se thread and the Schiit Happens thread. I demand a pay increase. This is overtime work and it's my weekend !!!

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/d...berolling-partii.348833/page-88#post-13561670


----------



## pctazhp

BTW. Speaking of moderator, do you know who's ours is? I guess we are such a commendable group of human beings he/she never has to get involved. It's weird thinking that there is someone who presumably was chosen based on maturity and common sense who monitors what goes on here.

One final word (before my next post). I think "magic" is the key to system enjoyment and I believe F-A specializes in magic. I'm still impressed that Espressivo-E was chosen as Headfonic's Best Desktop Amp of the Year for 2016. My calendar tells me that was just last year.


----------



## UntilThen

There is a moderator here? I didn't know that... that is quite hard to fathomed. I mean with DL posting all that Christmas tree.... why wasn't he stopped? Just kidding !!!  DL, I hope you're ok somewhere in Asia !!!

If a moderator is here, why was Mordy allowed to use the word 'Schiit'? Incredible. Why were we allowed to squabble over which is the best headphones or which is the best tube? Life's unexplained mystery.

Anyway, back on topic please.

Regarding Feliks Audio... it's no magic. A designer takes time and effort to come up with a blueprint for an outstanding creation. It's months of painstaking work. Tuning, listening, selecting the right components, consider the look, the chassis, the caps, the resistors, the wires, the fuse and so on. FA works as a family team. Lukasz was chosen as the spokesman but he's actually very hands on too. He has the finishing touch to putting the volume knob on. Do you know that the knob is the most interactive piece between you and Elise or Euforia? I mean which other part of the amp do you touch most often? 

Good now I got you thinking.... 

Ps... Espressivo-E was chosen as the 'Best' because they submitted it to the Coffee contest... little did the judges know that it's not coffee related but that it's an amp but it's too late when that hit the press.


----------



## pctazhp

For those who are wondering which of my favorite songs I'm listening to this morning (which I'm sure includes @connieflyer at least when he wakes up), this is it. I still get chills when I hear this and many other of Joan's classics.


----------



## pctazhp

And I have posted this before, but in my opinion for anyone who loves music, this is a must see.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> BTW. Speaking of moderator, do you know who's ours is? I guess we are such a commendable group of human beings he/she never has to get involved.



If it's a 'she' I'll start talking animatedly. I'll use colourful languages. I'll speak in French to impress her. I might try German if Lobster teach me Germaine. What language do you know?


----------



## connieflyer

I have this on one of her albums, always enjoyed this


----------



## UntilThen

This is Joan Baez best song. My eyes gets misty when I reminisce the old days long long ago.... when I was still in Singapore. When I was in the army... when I was awarded the 'Marksman' badge because the guy next to me, shot at my target and I got 19 out 20 points. The morale of the story is ... some things are not meant to be but enjoy it anyway.


----------



## UntilThen

Move aside Pavarotti .... this is the real thing. Engelbert Humperdinck is a great singer. Don't you agree?

Now please release me for I have to go ........ to zzzzzzzzzzzz.


----------



## UntilThen

I confess I have been listening to Youtube for the last 2 hours using my best tubes - this pair look so colour coordinated and sound so good, it's unreal. Makes Youtube sound good would you believe it?

Sylvania 6sn7wgt and Gec 6as7g


----------



## pctazhp

Love the picture of Elise and Euforia together. I often find YouTube to be quite good. Don't know what their bitrate or resolution or whatever is, but often very enjoyable.

Sorry the video quality of Song Catcher is so poor. It is a wonderful movie if you ever have a chance to see it on DVD or something. I saw it in a theater many years ago while visiting Wisconsin and it had quite an impact on me.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,,
First of all, I have never written out the full spelling of the S brand that is the mode du jour. Prefer to stick to traditional values of expression.

Second of all, did you know that you have Beryllium in your house? Yes sir, one of your tubes uses  Beryllium :





And you want to sell it????


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,

Ever since I got my Euforia, YouTube sounds much better than before.

About mixing tubes (of the same kind) I have very good results using different 6SN7 tubes. Just found in my 6SN7 box what I think is a RCA VT-231. It has no markings on it except for yellow letters on the glass that say 512F, Visually it looks like the RCA VT-231 so that is what I think it is, unless there are other smoked glass tubes that look the same....  Sounds good with a Sylvania Chrome Top.

The tube looks very similar to this (but no markings):


----------



## myphone

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Ever since I got my Euforia, YouTube sounds much better than before.
> 
> ...



Mordy, yes. It is RCA VT-231. CRC- code


----------



## mordy

myphone said:


> Mordy, yes. It is RCA VT-231. CRC- code


Hi myphone,

Thanks - not bad for $2-4 in a mixed lot of 6SN7 tubes a couple of years ago. Also got 3 Sylvania Chrome tops at the same time, not to speak about about the Channel Master 6SN7GTB and some 20 others - Tung Sol, Raytheon, RCA, Sylvania, GE etc. .

I find it very interesting to get inexpensive lots of  tubes and then go through them to see what I like - no preconceived ideas; only what I hear. And I enjoy researching the date codes and the rebranded names and trying to identify the manufacturer. Ever heard of Stromberberg-Carlson, Baldwin, Philco, Capeheart etc? (I'm sure you do). It is also interesting that it is rare to get a non functioning tube.

As a rule I found eBay very useful for identifying tubes and to figure out which ones are more desirable - just go by a consensus of price. Then try to buy the same expensive tube from somebody selling off his grandfather's TV repair shop instead of a professional seller......

Almost all of them sound good with the Euforia so far.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Second of all, did you know that you have Beryllium in your house? Yes sir, one of your tubes uses Beryllium :



Ah ha ha, Ooooooskari, I think my price for the Valvo C3g/s has just quadruple ..... omg I have beryllium. 

Now to scrutinise the HD800 and Yggy. There might be beryllium in it.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I find it very interesting to get inexpensive lots of tubes and then go through them to see what I like - no preconceived ideas; only what I hear. And I enjoy researching the date codes and the rebranded names and trying to identify the manufacturer. Ever heard of Stromberberg-Carlson, Baldwin, Philco, Capeheart etc? (I'm sure you do). It is also interesting that it is rare to get a non functioning tube.



Indeed Mordy. There's a bonus in focusing on 6sn7 and 6as7. There are bargains to be had on ebay if you buy the odd stack of tubes sold at very cheap prices. Usually it's sold by widows of collectors who have gone to St Peter's gates. Sob.... can't imagine that will happen to my tubes one day.... anyone buying my pair of Gec 6as7g cheap may end up with a stroke and join me at St Peter's gates.

Anyhoo, there are bargains to be had by buying singles. Also in Elise and Euforia, you can certainly mix and match 6sn7 brands in the pair and still get a homogeneous tone..... or one that is not easily differentiated under the spell of a few reds.


----------



## pctazhp

I have BLUE berry in my refrigerator. Does that count?


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I have BLUE berry in my refrigerator. Does that count?



Ok no cocktail here. That's for gals. We HE-man drink guinness with a raw egg - just ask St Patrick.

If you really like blue so much, you should buy this tube.... I might one day.


----------



## UntilThen

The secret to long and sustained postings is a rejuvenated mind and body. So have a guinness.


----------



## pctazhp

I know I'm old fashioned, but normally I buy tubes with some vague clue as to why I'm buying them other than the fact they have a pretty color that would provide warm comfort on a chilly Scottsdale summer night.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-Shugua...633435?hash=item3f777d331b:g:RPQAAOSwZd1VZnil


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Yes they do come with a bicycle and a bell. @angpsi buy this and get the bicycle.


Already paid for the bike, it's arriving on Tuesday! I'd get these too but there seems to be a 20% restocking fee which I'd hate to pay if I had to send them back...
Come to think of it, the restocking fee is more than the price I got for the bike!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Yggy is 1 month 3 days 6 hours 38 minutes and 30 seconds since power up.....

Let me tell you the sound from my setup is mature now and aged like a fine vintage wine. It's like seeing a movie in a VMax and I don't mean Yamaha VMAX but the VMAX cinema. The scale is huge, like a grand orchestra. The details are more dense than a London's foggy day but they are clearly visible. If you have a craving for bass in quality and quantity, this is it. Feel like a good cardiovascular renewal? Listen to my setup and feel your red and white blood cells flowing smoothly and unhindered. It's time you get that detox and the price is worth it.

So the secret to this is... let me spell it out for you again.

Yggdrasil > Euforia (Sylvania 6sn7w + Gec 6as7g) > HD800. 

If you buy my setup, the price is negotiable and you get a personally sign booklet by UT. I'm personally packaging this setup to sell in quantities to China's one billion population. Huge market there.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Already paid for the bike, it's arriving on Tuesday! I'd get these too but there seems to be a 20% restocking fee which I'd hate to pay if I had to send them back...
> Come to think of it, the restocking fee is more than the price I got for the bike!!!



Priorities priorities Angpsi !!!  The bicycle can wait. Your little girl will grow up and she will buy more than a little bicycle on her own..... but that Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates with metal base comes around once in every 600 years.....


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> My search for the best drivers have ended. This is it folks.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-base-...758331?hash=item2a85d1fe7b:g:EWEAAOSwbopZTILI




How about we all pitch in for them, and we can rotate them week by week  That way, we can all still afford our bicycles.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> *I often find YouTube to be quite good.*



Please ... a statement such as this will make you loose credence in an audiophile crowd such as this. Here we debate Hi-Rez, DSD, MQA, SACD, Pono (not porno), etc... then we debate more on golden fuses, tubes rings... USB decrapifiers.... exotic power cables....... tubes, tubes and mor tubes.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Priorities priorities Angpsi !!!  The bicycle can wait. Your little girl will grow up and she will buy more than a little bicycle on her own..... but that Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates with metal base comes around once in every 600 years.....


In 600 years we'll be in Elysium listening to real live harps played by the Angels...There will be more air, soundstage, bloom and dynamics than those TS can ever produce! Unless we live forever, and "Elysium" is going to be the name FA chooses for their statement amp at the time! In this regard, the TS may very well be considered a true bargain for the price! Btw, have I mentioned that my actual name is Angelos, which is "Angel" in Greek?

PS. I once had a friend who told me: "I wonder why would anyone want to end up in heaven; can you imagine the kind of music they'll be playing over there?"


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> How about we all pitch in for them, and we can rotate them week by week  That way, we can all still afford our bicycles.



Are you kidding me? The first one to get to listen to it, will disappear from the face of the earth, with a complete change of identity .... probably gone to live in Sao Paulo.


----------



## angpsi

@Tim Le, do you actually own the Sonorous in your profile pic? How do they sound? At first I was intrigued by the incredible price of their X but since recently I was more intrigued by the favorable reception in reviews of their more affordable III. Made me wonder whether how it might compare to the HD600.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Btw, have I mentioned that my actual name is Angelos, which is "Angel" in Greek?



Get out of here.... if that's your name, mine is Marlon Brando and I'm the Godfather.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 23, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Get out of here.... if that's your name, mine is Marlon Brando and I'm the Godfather.


So that's how you get your bargain prices? Make them an offer they can't refuse?

And yes, my name actually _is_ Angel: *ang*[elos]-*psi*[...]


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Please ... a statement such as this will make you loose credence in an audiophile crowd such as this. Here we debate Hi-Rez, DSD, MQA, SACD, Pono (not porno), etc... then we debate more on golden fuses, tubes rings... USB decrapifiers.... exotic power cables....... tubes, tubes and mor tubes.



I sacrificed all credibility when I listed "Lawyer" in my profile. Now all I live for is to one day brag I helped paint the Meditation Platform of the Temple of Supremus Reviewer.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> So that's how you get your bargain prices? Make them an offer they can't refuse?
> 
> And yes, my name actually _is_ Angel: *ang*[elos]-*psi*[...]



What's the psi for? It's like I never understood what pctazhp means. I can understand connieflyer because that's Connie Francis nickname. And I can certainly understand UntilThen. And I can certainly undertand Oskari - it's Finnish for 'I do'.


----------



## Tim Le (Jun 23, 2017)

angpsi said:


> @Tim Le, do you actually own the Sonorous in your profile pic? How do they sound? At first I was intrigued by the incredible price of their X but since recently I was more intrigued by the favorable reception in reviews of their more affordable III. Made me wonder whether how it might compare to the HD600.



I've never listened to the HD600, so I can't give you an accurate comparison. I did own the LCD2f and Sonorous VI at one point, and I decided to sell the LCD2f. Compared to the Sonorous, the LCD felt recessed in the highs and very recessed in the mids. Certain instruments on the LCD sound very hollow (think a bad electric acoustic piano sound vs a real acoustic piano). Being closed back, the bass was almost punchier and faster.

Honestly, the Sonorous VI is one of my favourite headphones.. but it's only 8 impedance, so it doesn't scale very well with gear at all. It sounds almost as good out of my phone as it does out of the Elise. On the contrary, my DT 990 (250 ohm) now sounds so much better on the Elise than my phone. It was this revelation that has led me to selling my Sonorous VI to upgrade to either the HD800 or Beyer T1.


----------



## pctazhp

pctazhp means



but with brown eyes. Thank about that for a while.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> What's the psi for? It's like I never understood what pctazhp means. I can understand connieflyer because that's Connie Francis nickname. And I can certainly understand UntilThen. And I can certainly undertand Oskari - it's Finnish for 'I do'.


It's the first three letters of my last name. Not very imaginative, I know, but I've been stuck with it ever since I conceived it to get my first ever email address back in 1992 and I'm too shy—or lazy—to figure out a new one.

I always thought that @connieflyer's handle came from actually flying a Connie.


----------



## UntilThen

At the rate I'm going, I will outdo Dave Chappelle. Btw Dave's net worth is ~ $42 million as a stand up comedian. I'll do it sitting down, with a Sennheiser, a Yggy and a Euforia... ho ho ho.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I always thought that @connieflyer's handle came from actually flying a Connie.



Oh don't be so trusting. That avatar is just a cover up.

This is the real connieflyer.


----------



## pctazhp

And now by popular request (my mother speaking to me from heaven), a return of the greatest recording ever made as only YouTube can present it in all its glory


----------



## angpsi

Tim Le said:


> I've never listened to the HD600, so I can't give you an accurate comparison. I did own the LCD2f and Sonorous VI at one point, and I decided to sell the LCD2f. Compared to the Sonorous, the LCD felt recessed in the highs and very recessed in the mids. Certain instruments on the LCD sound very hollow (think a bad electric acoustic piano sound vs a real acoustic piano). Being closed back, the bass was almost punchier and faster.
> 
> Honestly, the Sonorous VI is one of my favourite headphones.. but it's only 8 impedance, so it doesn't scale very well with gear at all. It sounds almost as good out of my phone as it does out of the Elise. On the contrary, my DT 990 (250 ohm) now sounds so much better on the Elise than my phone. It was this revelation that has led me to selling my Sonorous VI to upgrade to either the HD800 or Beyer T1.


Good to know, thanks! I was also partly intrigued because of their BA drivers; having experienced and liked such technology in my Etymotic Hf2 (now replaced by HF3) I was wondering how they might fare in bigger cups. But it looks like regular dynamic drivers may be the most fitting option for our amps. As I wrote earlier, the sound that Elise gave me with GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7wgt on the HD600 was the first time I thought to myself that I may have reached a significant peak on my gear, and that I may be happy staying for a long time listening to my music on these. That's similar to how I felt when I settled on my speakers chain might I add.


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> On the contrary, my DT 990 (250 ohm) now sounds so much better on the Elise than my phone.



Believe me when I audition the DT990 at the shop, I almost yanked my head off.... it's like the seller has turn up the volume full blast on the treble and bass. Hello? Do we need such high intensity ear cleaning? 

Now awaiting the rocks being thrown by all the DT990 lovers..... but I'm unrepentant.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Oh don't be so trusting. That avatar is just a cover up.
> 
> This is the real connieflyer.


HAHAHAHA!!! Got it, need to educate myself further!


----------



## pctazhp

And lest I need remind you, that recording was HUGE, HUGE, HUGE


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 23, 2017)

Pct, can you stop posting those awful sounding videos? My expensive GEC 6as7g is burning up double time quick on those videos !!!

One minute of the GEC time is about $20.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Ah ha ha, Ooooooskari, I think my price for the Valvo C3g/s has just quadruple ..... omg I have beryllium.


I'm not buying.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> PS. I once had a friend who told me: "I wonder why would anyone want to end up in heaven; can you imagine the kind of music they'll be playing over there?"



Please no blasphemy here. When you get there, you will know that all music will sound good and that your own singing is great. Btw you are allowed to bring one pair of tubes with you.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Pct, can you stop posting those awful sounding videos? My expensive GEC 6as7g is burning up double time quick on those videos !!!
> 
> One minute of the GEC time is about $20.



Oh. So sorry. I'm confused. I thought you were listening with Christmas Trees today.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> I'm not buying.



Say that again?!!!


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Say that again?!!!


"Customers lose interest due to quadrupling prices."


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> "Customers lose interest due to quadrupling prices."



You have no idea how revealing these tubes are. I might find the courage to plonk it in Elise and have a listen... time to up sell the tubes I want to sell.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> You have no idea how revealing these tubes are.


Yes, I do. I have a pair.


----------



## UntilThen

Staying with 6sn7 and 6as7 / 6080 is ideal on Elise. Total amperes for a pair of 6sn7 and 6as7 is 6.2a.

Elise transformer is capable of handling between 6 to 6.5a.

In long term usage, this matters.

FA specifically designed Elise for 6sn7 and 6as7. I'm more than convined not to touch any other tubes and have no intentions of unloading my non recommended tubes to Elise owners.

Someday I may get an amp that uses those tubes but unlikely. I'm keen on a 2A3 though and may talk to Lukasz about it. If they produced an amp that competes with the likes of the DNA Stratus, there will be buyers..... bigtime.


----------



## connieflyer

angpsi said:


> It's the first three letters of my last name. Not very imaginative, I know, but I've been stuck with it ever since I conceived it to get my first ever email address back in 1992 and I'm too shy—or lazy—to figure out a new one.
> 
> I always thought that @connieflyer's handle came from actually flying a Connie.


And of course the lawyer is right again, Lockheed Super Constellation EC121k Radar/Navigation flight tech. Talk about Vacuum tubes, I had more than enough!


----------



## connieflyer

Just to let you know how "cool" we were look at the playboy emblem on the tail section!


----------



## UntilThen

A play plane?

I am painting the deck today. The railings will be painted camouflage green and the floor boards stained.


----------



## UntilThen

I am thinking of painting Yggy Euforia and HD800 camouflage green too.

Green and brown tubes.


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> And of course the lawyer is right again, Lockheed Super Constellation EC121k Radar/Navigation flight tech. Talk about Vacuum tubes, I had more than enough!


Cool rig! I'm sure it's more revealing than UT's C3gs! I'm an architect though, and a poor academic (as per the "poor conductor" joke).


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 24, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Cool rig! I'm sure it's more revealing than UT's C3gs!



Nothing is more revealing than UT's rig, with or without C3G.

Yggy + Euforia with silver wiring + HD800 has the x-ray capability to shine through your internal organs or project you to Mars. I ain't kidding you. This is the 1st time where I have no remorse spending this big sum of money because the euphoria is real and not imagined. The sensory tissues in the brains are pricked and you will feel it coursing through your body, into every fibre of your being. This is the power of a super sounding system. This is affordable high end. 

It's not a paradox. This is revealing as well as natural sounding, that is pleasing to the ears, with no trace of fatigue.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I'm an architect though, and a poor academic (as per the "poor conductor" joke).



Please.... did you not design the Eiffel Tower? Well I design the Sydney Opera House.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Please.... did you not design the Eiffel Tower? Well I design the Sydney Opera House.


The Eiffel Tower was designed by an engineer. Architects at the time were doing marble facades!


----------



## UntilThen

Didn't paint the deck because I couldn't buy the paint on time. Good excuse to sit down for a good listen to my favourite album - The Wall by Pink Floyd on CD.

The helicopters sound are so real. The children's laughter and chatter so real. It's like I'm in the soundscape. Euforia with these tubes have a rich harmonic texture - that is the best way I can describe it. Rich, clear and vibrant. Layers of comfort wool and yet so transparent. I have never sat down with GEC 6as7g for such a lengthy listen. These tubes are the real gems and I hope my pair last for eternity. Wait I need to get another one to pair with my solo GEC square brown base.

Now I know why the 'Crow' (guy who lend me his GEC 6as7g at the meet) told me he only use GEC 6as7g on his Woo Audio Wa2.

 .


----------



## UntilThen

I'm going to my son's place for dinner tonight. I'll swap my Elise with the La Figaro 339 for a week.

I need to hear that beast with GEC 6as7g and Mullard EF86 again. LF 339 is another incredible sounding amp. So many amps, so many tubes, only one pair of ears..... so sad.


----------



## angpsi

Yesterday I spent the whole day out of the office, namely away from the Elise. Today I'm back to cover for yesterday's work and here I am reporting on the Sylvania 6sn7w. They are _very_ resolving. Impressive! Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio sound three-dimensional, to the point that I feel confident to estimate the place of the microphones in the room! Once it hit me, I immediately forgot how the 6sn7wgt sound. Strange. I'll get back to them in another time. Final comparison and conclusions pending, but at this point I believe it can't be far from general consensus.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Today I'm back to cover for yesterday's work and here I am reporting on the Sylvania 6sn7w. They are _very_ resolving. Impressive! Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio sound three-dimensional, to the point that I feel confident to estimate the place of the microphones in the room!



I am surprised you didn't hear the conductor farting.... or you choose not to hear that? I'm glad you find the 6sn7w resolving. That's like saying that Yggy is resolving.

I've again surpassed myself by writing another masterpiece in Euforia's thread. I believe in 6sn7 and 6as7 now.   ............ and the 'like' counts keeps increasing. At $3 a like, that's $2700. More than enough to cover the cost of Yggy. 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/f...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-215#post-13563009


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> You have no idea how revealing these tubes are. I might find the courage to plonk it in Elise and have a listen... time to up sell the tubes I want to sell.




These are some of the most transparent driver tubes , for transparency they are probably unmatched....they will make any power tube sound superb.


----------



## UntilThen

Angelo I do apologise. That was rude.

What I should have said is, 'I am glad you are starting to appreciate 6sn7w resolving qualities'.

Generally I find Sylvania having a sharper tone. Tubes that are on the opposite side of the spectrum include RCA 6sn7gt vt231 smoke glass which is a warm and less revealing by contrast.

So depending on your needs, you have a selection of drivers and power tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> These are some of the most transparent driver tubes , for transparency they are probably unmatched....they will make any power tube sound superb.



C3g didn't sound that great on La Figaro 339 though. Certainly not comparable to EF86 on that amp.

That's not a fair comparison because EF86 is a great tube and sounds astonishing on LF339. Can't wait to bring this amp home.


----------



## whirlwind

I should have said with an amp that was made to use them.....they are very transparent, more so than any SN7 tube to my ears


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I should have said with an amp that was made to use them.....they are very transparent, more so than any SN7 tube to my ears



Ah yes correct.


----------



## UntilThen

It's confirmed. Feliks Audio will be at Can Jam London 2017 July 15 &16.

http://feliksaudio.pl/


----------



## UntilThen

Listening to La Figaro 339 now. First time paired with Yggy and HD800. Tubes used are Mullard EF86 and RCA 6as7g.

For further impressions from me on LF339, please see my post here. I like the LF339 a lot and I am being very forthright in my assessment here. I'll tell it how I hear it.... in comparison to Elise and Euforia.
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/d...berolling-partii.348833/page-89#post-13563317

The obligatory photo.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 24, 2017)

Another good DAC but with ESS Sabre 9018 chip on sale.
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/124964-fs-auralic-vega-dac/

$1650 aussie dollars is a steal but I don't think my ears can handle Sabre chips.


----------



## attmci (Jun 24, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Or these
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brimar-6SN7GT-NOS-MATCHED-PAIR-TESTED-Vintage-Valve-Boxed-Tube-CV1988-ECC32-B65/252981124168?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=2&asc=20140106155344&meid=bbf971e28e574f999851ec57aa61c989&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=292152282729
> 
> You know, I've not really gotten into 6sn7 because _*I was into all the other non recommended tubes*_. Now with 2 OTL amps that are specifically designed for 6sn7 / 6as7, perhaps it's time I try a few 6sn7.



LOL

Stop collecting those gta, gtb, gtcs. There are a lot of nice 6SN7 on the market.

But hope you still like your 7N7, 6BX7, and 6BL7s. 

Wow, found a sweat time UT is not available. hahahaha.


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> LOL
> 
> Stop collecting those gta, gtb, gtcs. There are a lot of nice 6SN7 on the market.
> 
> ...



I like you attmci. You pay close attention to what I write. I'm more than flattered ....... 

I'm keeping all my non recommended tubes for the next millennium. Old tubes always fetch a good price just like old wine.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Angelo I do apologise. That was rude.
> 
> What I should have said is, 'I am glad you are starting to appreciate 6sn7w resolving qualities'.
> 
> ...


Well, as I wrote on the Euforia thread I was struck with a revelation (forgive me the pun) with the 6sn7wgt and then the 6sn7w yesterday. No need to apologize, I'm still on my graduate degree in tube amps!

Besides, look at how I'm spending my Sunday morning!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Well, as I wrote on the Euforia thread I was struck with a revelation (forgive me the pun) with the 6sn7wgt and then the 6sn7w yesterday. No need to apologize, I'm still on my graduate degree in tube amps!
> 
> Besides, look at how I'm spending my Sunday morning!



My apology was about whether you heard the conductor farting.... I went too far. That's gross. It has nothing to do with 6sn7w. 

Btw, next time you take the boat out, I'm coming. I'd even skip my badminton for it.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> My apology was about whether you heard the conductor farting.... I went too far. That's gross. It has nothing to do with 6sn7w.
> 
> Btw, next time you take the boat out, I'm coming. I'd even skip my badminton for it.


But I _did_ hear the conductor farting! Or, rather, I was listening to Lianne La Havas singing so close to the mic it felt she was speaking these special words to me directly. I wonder @pctazhp would that be reasonable grounds to argue adultery?

Btw of course you and all the rest are most welcome to join us in the Greek waters! Leave the deck unpainted and give it a go!


----------



## UntilThen

Angelo I'm about to loose it. This 'thing' .... yeah I can't even bring myself to say the name on Elise thread..... is so good, fed by Yggy and a selection of choice power tubes.... and the unbeatable pentode Mullard EF86. This is a sad, sad day indeed because my ears are being infused with melodies so sweet.... any sweeter, it will burst. Forget about your boat..... just come here and listen to this twang.



This is my agony now.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> But I _did_ hear the conductor farting! Or, rather, I was listening to Lianne La Havas singing so close to the mic it felt she was speaking these special words to me directly. I wonder @pctazhp would that be reasonable grounds to argue adultery?



You can fantasise as long as there's no touching, then it's ok... music does that to us. If that constitutes adultery, we would all be single by now and with no reproduction, the world's population will reduce to zero. That would be terrible.

Wait a minute.... let me rephrase the above sentence, From now on, you shall not have a revealing system.... you naughty boy. Stay good and behave.... if that means listening to a crappy system so be it. Now go fishing on that boat. It's less adulterous ..... fishes won't tempt you unless you come across a mermaid?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Leave the deck unpainted and give it a go!



Please..... I spend $15000 doing that stupid deck and you ask me to leave it unpainted? With $15000, I could have gotten Chord Dave and then I would be able to give my Yggy to Pct and make him the happiest boy in Scottsdale.


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry I just pop into the other thread to give Mr Tunkejazz some advice. He wanted to deplete the GEC 6as7g even further. Can you imagine that? 

Now where were we?


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Please..... I spend $15000 doing that stupid deck and you ask me to leave it unpainted? With $15000, I could have gotten Chord Dave and then I would be able to give my Yggy to Pct and make him the happiest boy in Scottsdale.



I'm sure by the time of your next weekly paycheck you'll have another $15,000. I proudly accept all forms of charity. Remember we are brothers in arms - all hail  *Yggdrasil !!!*


----------



## mordy

UT is always exaggerating lol - AUD15.000 is only USD11.351.........Why not spray paint the deck? Easier than painting by hand - you can buy or rent a paint sprayer.

So far the only 6SN7 tubes I do not like so much are the OEM TS Russian reissue. They sound too syrupy and slow. ATM breaking the rules with a pair of 6SN7GTB Sylvania Chrome Top from 1955 and a RCA VT-231 smoked glass from whenever (possibly 40's) and a pair of non recommended EL12N as powers. Personally, IMHO, the EL12N is a worthy substitute for the fabled GEC 6AS7G.


----------



## mordy

Who manufactured these British 6SN7 tubes? Mullard?


----------



## Aurimas

Sorry if this question was discussed, but as Feliks Audio Espressivo owner, I would gladly like to know if Elise is more suitable for planar headphones? Specific Audeze LCD-2.
Thanks!


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Who manufactured these British 6SN7 tubes? Mullard?


Mullard never made the type. Those are Brimars.


----------



## UntilThen

Aurimas said:


> Sorry if this question was discussed, but as Feliks Audio Espressivo owner, I would gladly like to know if Elise is more suitable for planar headphones? Specific Audeze LCD-2.
> Thanks!



Definitely. @HPLobster has been using Elise with his LCD3 and he's raving about it... he's even raving about it to his patients. Poor patients.


----------



## UntilThen

Aurimas said:


> Sorry if this question was discussed, but as Feliks Audio Espressivo owner, I would gladly like to know if Elise is more suitable for planar headphones? Specific Audeze LCD-2.
> Thanks!



Oh how rude of me. Hello Aurimas and welcome to Elise thread. We're a happy bunch.... as you can see.. this amp has some effects


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> UT is always exaggerating lol - AUD15.000 is only USD11.351.........Why not spray paint the deck? Easier than painting by hand - you can buy or rent a paint sprayer.



Excuse me Mordy. There's the easy way and there's artistic hard way. I'm thinking of doing to the deck what I do to my lawn.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Who manufactured these British 6SN7 tubes? Mullard?



This is the seller I bought my NOS NIB GEC 6080 from. He's also the one I bought my first pair of Mullard ECC31 but I complain that it didn't look so NOS and he return my money with no questions asked.

So I can recommend this seller. He's fair dinkum.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Personally, IMHO, the EL12N is a worthy substitute for the fabled GEC 6AS7G.



The goose looks in the mirror and say, 'Hey I look like the swan'. 

I have to admit that the bass and punch in the EL12N and likewise in the EL tubes is very engaging. I really think that they will sound astounding in a custom made tube amp for it.... 

Similarly the 300B tube is not to be sneered at. I would really love to hear a 300B tube amp one day..... 

But my point is - you don't cramp all these tubes in Elise..... that's Lukasz point too. He told me, 'UT, I have no clue why these guys says that the EL tubes sound better than 6sn7 in Elise. At least technically they shouldn't...'.  I didn't argue with him after that. How do you argue with the manufacturer? The manufacturer knows everything about his amp. Do you?


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 25, 2017)

@pctazhp  I think I was born to be a lawyer. Do you think so? Do you think I'll win any case in court with these 'sound' arguments? Please.... I want some honest opinion.

Btw I am really liking my avatar. He's a picture of a serious listener. Look at the concentration.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 25, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> all hail *Yggdrasil !!!*



Alright alright let's not over sell the Yggdrasil yet. We have not negotiated the promotion fee with Schiit. The figure I have in mind is $150,000.

Of which I'll pay you $2299, just enough to buy your Yggdrasil. How's that?

That leaves me $147,701. Enough to buy a boat and sail in Greece with Angelo.


----------



## UntilThen

Silence ! Did I kill the thread? 

Always wear humour on your face in Head-Fi. Opinions will differ. Have a good day.


----------



## Tim Le

Haha we can't all be as active as you, UT.

Thanks for recommending the Fotons and Ken-Rads to me for bass, but what would be your tube of choice for magnificent mids? I want to be able to hear all the nuances in Norah Jones' voice.


----------



## UntilThen

Im omw to work now. 

Norah' s voice is alto rather than saprono.
So a lush sounding 6sn7 would be best. I could think of many but I will just state Sylvania 6sn7wgt.


----------



## Tim Le (Jun 25, 2017)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Sylvania...853954?hash=item1ec9cfbe42:g:xzcAAOSwFJBZSsQ2

Are these the ones you're talking about? There are other listings for almost $100/pair.. I don't mind saving a bit of money just because one tube is a bit shorter


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Always wear humour on your face in Head-Fi.



I have read without success the last three weeks of posts on this thread to find this "humour" of which you speak. Can you point to me to the most recent example?? O wait. Sorry, I didn't realize you had misspelled "humor".


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry Australians spell it as humour. Americans spell it as tumour.


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Sylvania...853954?hash=item1ec9cfbe42:g:xzcAAOSwFJBZSsQ2
> 
> Are these the ones you're talking about? There are other listings for almost $100/pair.. I don't mind saving a bit of money just because one tube is a bit shorter



Thats the one Tim. Not the same height doesnt matter. Look at Arnie and Danny Devito. They are twins !!!


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Sorry Australians spell it as humour. Americans spell it as tumour.



In 5th grade I created a skit. I had one student lying on a table with a sheet over him. Two other students were standing over him, each wearing a sign that said "Surgeon". The first surgeon had a pair of kitchen tongs and appeared to pull something out of the patient's stomach, and said "Well, we got it". The second surgeon then said, "Wait, he's got two-more". I think my grade was "F".


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> Thats the one Tim. Not the same height doesnt matter. Look at Arnie and Danny Devito. They are twins !!!



Thanks, hopefully the height dissuades other potential buyers


----------



## Tim Le

pctazhp said:


> In 5th grade I created a skit. I had one student lying on a table with a sheet over him. Two other students were standing over him, each wearing a sign that said "Surgeon". The first surgeon had a pair of kitchen tongs and appeared to pull something out of the patient's stomach, and said "Well, we got it". The second surgeon then said, "Wait, he's got two-more". I think my grade was "F".



Your teacher did not have a very good sense of humor then! Then again, maybe that's why I wouldn't cut it as a teacher.


----------



## pctazhp

I saw a post earlier today to the effect that one should not use music to listen to one's equipment, but instead use one's equipment to listen to music. As for listening to music, I think this is pretty darn good:


----------



## UntilThen

What is most important is that your music listens to your grear and your gear listens to you. It is call the chain of command.

You are the boss. Never let your gear control you. Makes sense?


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> What is most important is that your music listens to your grear and your gear listens to you. It is call the chain of command.
> 
> You are the boss. Never let your gear control you. Makes sense?



The quote of mine you have dissected and contorted was merely a colorful and poetic way of introducing a nice video. I swear I don't know why I waste my wit and subtle genius on ingrates


----------



## pctazhp

Here is a song


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Please..... I spend $15000 doing that stupid deck and you ask me to leave it unpainted? With $15000, I could have gotten Chord Dave and then I would be able to give my Yggy to Pct and make him the happiest boy in Scottsdale.


It's so easy to make an audiophile happy! My daughter wouldn't appreciate such a gift to the same extent; I'm sure she prefers the bike much better. Although the other day she really did appreciate some good time listening to Lianne on my setup—how proud can a father be!!!


----------



## angpsi

Tim Le said:


> Haha we can't all be as active as you, UT.
> 
> Thanks for recommending the Fotons and Ken-Rads to me for bass, but what would be your tube of choice for magnificent mids? I want to be able to hear all the nuances in Norah Jones' voice.


While I don't have UT's experience on tubes, for me the first time I got a sound such as you are describing was when I paired the Mullard 6080 with the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt. But I quickly moved to the GEC 6080 and the Sylvania 6sn7wgt followed by the Sylvania 6sn7w. I like them so much I haven't yet tried my newly acquired Tung-Sol 5998!

On the same note, today I'm replicating my experiment: one day off and then change back to Sylvania 6sn7wgt. The latter are still really good and of the same kin: as far as I can discern the differences, the 'w' is more resolving while the 'wgt' gives me a more coherent whole. I imagine the differences as the Sennheiser HD600 and HD650—although I haven't actually heard the HD650: the Sylvania 6sn7w is the HD600 and the Sylvania 6sn7wgt is the HD650. I think there's a reason why I own the HD600, but I can definitely see a lot of people (including myself) enjoying the—thankfully cheaper—6sn7wgt!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> the Sylvania 6sn7w is the HD600 and the Sylvania 6sn7wgt is the HD650.



You nail it Angelo. Really proud of you. That is a good analogy. I'd even go as far to say that the 6sn7w is the HD800.

Sylvania 6sn7wgt as I said before, is warmer and more lush. It is very comforting on the ears. We don't always want to have the most revealing tone. Sometimes we rather not hear everything and give our ears a rest. What's a few decibels chop off at the top end. This is the reason HD650 is so popular with many.


----------



## angpsi

Thanks for your kind words UT, looks like you and all of the original crowd in this thread have been waiting more than patiently for all us newbies to catch up!

In the meantime I felt so sad realizing that I hadn't even tried my Tung-Sol 5998 that I just went ahead and switched them in, and coupled them with my Tung-Sol 6sn7gt. As always, they probably need to get some room to stretch. But right out of the box, so to speak, they sound very good indeed! It's like if the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w were the refined European in the group, this all-TS combo would be the lively, energetic, and fun American! So good, especially with the Konitz - Solal "Impressive Rome" album!!! Could be my go–to set for smokey tunes, as I remember you once asked for that specific tone!... These are late-hours tubes.

That said, I'm also just starting to understand how different tube combos may be more appealing for specific genres of music. Right now I'm just glad I spent money on these TOTL tubes, albeit I may not have been able to appreciate them if I hadn't strayed so far with my previous acquisitions!


----------



## angpsi (Jun 26, 2017)

Wanna dance to this? Sounds so good, both with the GES/Sylvania, but especially with the all–TS combo! Who knew... I hope I'm not offending your musical tastes here but at least I'm offering a pretty 21-yo face in return!


----------



## angpsi

Ok, these are definitely jazz tubes! Clubhouse fun all the way, listening to this!


----------



## mordy

Interesting that the HD650 came up in these recent posts. Massdrop has them available for three days now for the price of $250 including free shipping worldwide. Out of 7500 units close to 2800 have been purchased on the first day.
If I have the T1, should I get these? Or rather hold out for a good deal on the HD800?


----------



## angpsi (Jun 26, 2017)

mordy said:


> Interesting that the HD650 came up in these recent posts. Massdrop has them available for three days now for the price of $250 including free shipping worldwide. Out of 7500 units close to 2800 have been purchased on the first day.
> If I have the T1, should I get these? Or rather hold out for a good deal on the HD800?


I think you can find the HD600 / HD650 / HD6xx on the second hand market at this price or less anytime. As I listen to the HD600 I feel only a significant turn in the audio chain may satisfy my curiosity. Oddly, common consensus is that few cans can compare to the HD600 etc at the price, and not necessarily favorably. Therefore I'd say if you wanted to give it a go as a complement to your collection then yes, I'd be all for it. Btw do these come with customs or not? If yes, that would also be something to consider because I've seen many hd650 go for around €180-200 on EU eBay private auctions.


----------



## Tim Le

angpsi said:


> While I don't have UT's experience on tubes, for me the first time I got a sound such as you are describing was when I paired the Mullard 6080 with the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt. But I quickly moved to the GEC 6080 and the Sylvania 6sn7wgt followed by the Sylvania 6sn7w. I like them so much I haven't yet tried my newly acquired Tung-Sol 5998!
> 
> On the same note, today I'm replicating my experiment: one day off and then change back to Sylvania 6sn7wgt. The latter are still really good and of the same kin: as far as I can discern the differences, the 'w' is more resolving while the 'wgt' gives me a more coherent whole. I imagine the differences as the Sennheiser HD600 and HD650—although I haven't actually heard the HD650: the Sylvania 6sn7w is the HD600 and the Sylvania 6sn7wgt is the HD650. I think there's a reason why I own the HD600, but I can definitely see a lot of people (including myself) enjoying the—thankfully cheaper—6sn7wgt!



Well that makes my decision much easier, I'd take the HD650 any day of the week.


----------



## Tim Le

Has anyone got the chance to compare the Sylvania 6sn7wgt vs RCA 6sn7gt? They look to be around the same price, and both are described with as "lush and midcentric".


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> *It's like if the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w were the refined European in the group, this all-TS combo would be the lively, energetic, and fun American!* So good, especially with the Konitz - Solal "Impressive Rome" album!!! Could be my go–to set for smokey tunes, as I remember you once asked for that specific tone!... These are late-hours tubes.



You have nail it again with the 1st sentence. At this rate, you'll be very good with the nails.

I don't quite agree with the last sentence though, unless you want to keep awake at the late hours.


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> Has anyone got the chance to compare the Sylvania 6sn7wgt vs RCA 6sn7gt? They look to be around the same price, and both are described with as "lush and midcentric".



I'm not sure if you are referring to a different RCA 6sn7gt but if you're referring to the RCA 6sn7gt vt231 smoke glass, then it's quite different tone from the Sylvania 6sn7wgt.

The RCA is warmer, darker... could be too much for some but I like it when trying to tame a bright setup.

Both could be classify as midcentric but they excel in bass too. The Sylvania is much clearer though compared to the RCA. Clearer in the sense that it is not as dense in texture as the RCA.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 27, 2017)

mordy said:


> If I have the T1, should I get these? Or rather hold out for a good deal on the HD800?



At the expense of over simplifying, HD800, T1, HE560 and HD600 are residents of the North Pole. They just have different Eskimos feathers.

HD650, Focal Elear, HE500, LCD2.2 and a particular ZMF Atticucs (I'm sure I have the spelling wrong here) are residents of the South Pole. They are not call Eskimos. I don't know what they are call but don't you ever challenge them on their bass. They will boom you.

So if you only want 2 headphones, which I think is a very wise move, you should marry a North Pole and a South Pole...... to get a Mid Pole.

Just remember UT tell you so in his own words on the above ......


----------



## UntilThen

I've talked further about


angpsi said:


> I hope I'm not offending your musical tastes here but at least I'm offering a pretty 21-yo face in return!



You nail it again with that pretty face. You sure you're not a carpenter.... instead of an architect?


----------



## UntilThen

This is my place holder for a chart of 6as7 / 6080 power tubes and all recommended power tubes for Elise / Euforia.

Sadly the chart tool isn't available anymore with this new Head-Fi layout. So I'll have to use bullet points......


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> I've talked further about
> 
> 
> You nail it again with that pretty face. You sure you're not a carpenter.... instead of an architect?


Looks like I'm on a roll; I'll quit while I'm ahead and wait for your pending masterpiece on bullet points!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Thanks for your kind words UT, looks like you and all of the original crowd in this thread have been waiting more than patiently for all us newbies to catch up!



I just want you to know that no one is born an expert in tubes. They learn the trade from personal experience. Nothing like hearing it for yourself. 

So anyone here can be an 'expert' with tubes if they sink their hours and wallet in it. However it's a heavy price, let me warn you. You might end up being a seller !!!


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> You sure you're not a carpenter.... instead of an architect?


Or, I'll do your deck for a whiff of the Yggy and a ride with your specialist bike!


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> However it's a heavy price, let me warn you. You might end up being a seller !!!


Im already a seller: I sold 2/3 of my EL inventory and a camera!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Or, I'll do your deck for a whiff of the Yggy and a ride with your specialist bike!



Don't even talk about the deck now. I am going to sell it on ebay !!!

See? It's still unpainted. Talk about procrastination. Head-Fi does that to you.....


----------



## angpsi

I'm still losing money though, still a long way to go until I make a profit on these!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Im already a seller: I sold 2/3 of my EL inventory and a camera!



Hahahahahah I am laughing so hard now...... tears streaming down my cheek. You're so funny Angelo.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Don't even talk about the deck now. I am going to sell it on ebay !!!
> 
> See? It's still unpainted. Talk about procrastination. Head-Fi does that to you.....


Don't tell me about procrastination, I'm supposed to be finishing my PhD in July!


----------



## angpsi

Nice deck though!


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 26, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Don't tell me about procrastination, I'm supposed to be finishing my PhD in July!



I never laugh so much in my life. Why so many PhD students in Elise thread? This must be am intelligent thread LOL.

Not too long ago, @louisxiawei  kept talking to me and he is a PhD student too. 

Ps... not to mention Dr Lobster LOL @HPLobster ... sorry Lobster it's the only way to lure you away from the hospital emergency department.

Oh.... there's a Law Ear too !!!

.... and someone who flies a connieflyer.

and wait for the best.... Captain of the Love Boat.


----------



## angpsi

Off to bed, daughter's got to wake up early tomorrow therefore so do I... Looking forward to your pending masterpiece on driver tubes - in prose if you please!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Off to bed, daughter's got to wake up early tomorrow therefore so do I... Looking forward to your pending masterpiece on driver tubes - in prose if you please!



Probably have to wait till the weekend. I have to go to work soon. Remember UT has to work too.....


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> I never laugh so much in my life. Why so many PhD students in Elise thread? This must be am intelligent thread LOL.
> 
> Not too long ago, @louisxiawei  kept talking to me and he is a PhD student too.


Man, looks like a pattern - I guess PhD OCD is quite suitable to audiophilia nervosa. Unless it just means we have no social life and head fi makes living in our head something to brag about to like minded spirits!


----------



## UntilThen

Me? I'm just trying to keep this thread going... 

When we first came to the previous Elise thread after the first was locked, Suuup told me, 'UT, there's no one here anymore. Just you and me'.

I told him, 'Don't you worry Suuup. I'll talk till the cows come home.... leave it to me'.   ..... and come home they did.


----------



## Suuup

UntilThen said:


> Me? I'm just trying to keep this thread going...
> 
> When we first came to the previous Elise thread after the first was locked, Suuup told me, 'UT, there's no one here anymore. Just you and me'.
> 
> I told him, 'Don't you worry Suuup. I'll talk till the cows come home.... leave it to me'.   ..... and come home they did.



Oh man, that's a long time ago


----------



## UntilThen

Suuup said:


> Oh man, that's a long time ago



Hey Suuup, so nice to hear from you again. Yes that seems ages ago....

I hope you are still as keen on head-fi as before. I am.... just more so now.


----------



## Suuup

I don't use Head Fi much anymore. I still have a peek every now and then to see how ya'll are doing and what's new -- I'm still running my 5998 + 6N7G setup.


----------



## myphone

UntilThen said:


> I never laugh so much in my life. Why so many PhD students in Elise thread? This must be am intelligent thread LOL.
> 
> Not too long ago, @louisxiawei  kept talking to me and he is a PhD student too.
> 
> ...



I don't have Elise, I do have an Euforia. finished MD/PhD Not too long ago, 20 some years ago.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 27, 2017)

myphone said:


> I don't have Elise, I do have an Euforia. finished MD/PhD Not too long ago, 20 some years ago.



Dang what's wrong with this thread? Why are you Einsteins doing here?

The lure of tubes right?  It has to be energy and gravity !


----------



## mordy (Jun 27, 2017)

Ordered a pair of tubes from Ukraine a couple of months ago - took 35 days for the package to arrive. So when i ordered a pair of Foton 6H8C (6SN7) from the same seller I braced myself for a long wait.

Today the tubes arrived, after 10 days! Go figure....

And I am hereby handing out the prize for the most minimalist packaging - truly green with a thinly padded envelope and a little cardboard box.






Bubble wrap? What's that? Anyhow, I assume these tubes were built for tanks of jet fighter planes - they look very substantial.
Inside is a single large getter cup a la GEC and the getter flash is buried somewhere on the bottom and not visible.

And how do they sound? First impression very nice. A little bit of a contradiction using $4 driver tubes with the expensive GEC 6AS7G power tubes.

Did i say that the price includes shipping? These were made in 60's (June and Oct 1967 for my pair).

Feel guilty of spending $8 for a pair incl shipping? Then order the the same tube from the 70's for $6/pair incl shipping.

Or if you really want to splurge, order the same tube from the 50's for $10/pair incl shipping.

Or, if your wallet permits, order the special 50's low micro-phonic special audiophile tubes for $26/pair (said to equal the Melz tubes).

All jokes aside, this tube is a worthy acquisition and I agree with UT about its merits. Just add a zero if somebody asks you how much you paid....



 



https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=uk.rabin&item=322557839621&_osacat=0&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1311.R1.TR2.TRC0.A0.H0.X6H8C.TRS0&_nkw=6h8c&_sacat=0

How do you remove the extra pictures I posted by error?


----------



## UntilThen

Lol cant even put some toilet paper in it?

These tubes are pretty good sounding for their cheap price. 

I have no problems using them with gec 6as7g.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Bubble wrap? What's that?


Too expensive at those prices if you need to buy it.


UntilThen said:


> Lol cant even put some toilet paper in it?


Or some newspaper…


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Lol cant even put some toilet paper in it?
> 
> These tubes are pretty good sounding for their cheap price.
> 
> I have no problems using them with gec 6as7g.


Hi UT,

Frustration free packaging - you remember when you had to unwrap those GEC tubes from Stavros - miles of bubble wrap....

Anyhow, felt guilty about using the aristocratic GEC tubes with the Foton farmer tubes, so I plugged in a pair of RCA 6AS7G tubes. Didn't realize that I have four pairs of these - forgot that I bought a 6AS7 lot a couple of years ago.

Definitively a warmer tube, almost burnt my fingers on it!

Everything sounds good in the Euforia - no need for expensive tubes! The RCA prices were in the lower Foton territory.

Very enjoyable sound, but will reserve a review after they have been broken in. 

I think the RCAs were made in June 1953.


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> Too expensive at those prices if you need to buy it.
> 
> Or some newspaper…


Hi Oskari,

Once I ordered a pair of 6N6P tubes from Hungary. They arrived in a regular paper envelope wrapped in a paper napkin, but they survived the trip.

I have some 6SN7 type sub miniature tubes that can survive 250G. Maybe I'll do a Frankenstein and plug them into the Euforia - tricky to get the 8 spider legs right....


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> How do you remove the extra pictures I posted by error?


You edit the message and delete the tags for the images. (?)


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Maybe I'll do a Frankenstein and plug them into the Euforia - tricky to get the 8 spider legs right....


I'm sure you can manage it.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Frustration free packaging - you remember when you had to unwrap those GEC tubes from Stavros - miles of bubble wrap....



Ha.... so many layers of bubble wraps, I almost couldn't get to my GEC tubes...


----------



## UntilThen

@attmci  your WE 421A tubes auction is ending soon. Better press the 'buy' button.


----------



## attmci

UntilThen said:


> @attmci  your WE 421A tubes auction is ending soon. Better press the 'buy' button.



No,  I am with Mordy. I can only make my mind to purchase something like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-tube-6080-Philps-SQ-NEW-IN-BOX/232383212470?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## UntilThen

I'm done buying tubes. It's now time to use them and I don't mean change the tubes every alternate song. That would be tube nervosa. 

I mean really sitting down with one set of tubes to really digest it. 

I'm really digging RCA 6as7g now on both FA amps and LF339. Any tubes that make my HD800 / HD650 sound musical has to be good.

I'm listening to 'Dark Side of The Moon' SACD version but playable on CD player. I can never get enough of listening to this album. The sound is just too good coming out of my system now.


----------



## Suuup

UntilThen said:


> I'm done buying tubes. It's now time to use them and I don't mean change the tubes every alternate song. That would be tube nervosa.
> 
> I mean really sitting down with one set of tubes to really digest it.
> 
> ...


Didn't you say that about a year ago as well?


----------



## mordy (Jun 28, 2017)

attmci said:


> No,  I am with Mordy. I can only make my mind to purchase something like this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-tube-6080-Philps-SQ-NEW-IN-BOX/232383212470?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


Hi attmci,

$17 for one tube - too expensive! I think I paid $14 for a pair of these incl shipping....All right, you may have to buy a sleeve of 5 to get that price.
I have 6080 tubes from Chatham, Tung Sol, RCA, GE, Sylvania, Philips, Raytheon, Mullard. I guess that I have to revisit them again with the Euforia. I have only been using the Bendix 6080WB lately.

PS: Just checked out eBay - there are still bargains to be found in 6080 tubes - you could buy that Philips tube for $10 incl shipping, and pairs of other brands for $17

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...A0.H0.X6080.TRS0&_nkw=6080+tube&_sacat=183077


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 28, 2017)

Suuup said:


> Didn't you say that about a year ago as well?



Interesting. I check my ebay purchase exactly a year ago. Since then I've purchased these tubes:-

Bendix 6080wb
RCA 6080
Lots of EL11, EL12, EL12N
EF80, EF86 for my La Figaro 339 ---- which means I bought the LF339 2nd hand at around this time
Some LPs, vinyl accessories ----- this was the time I got really keen on LPs
Tung Sol 6sn7gtb 1960s black base
Sylvania 6sn7wgt - I bought a 2nd to pair with the only 6sn7wgt that I bought at the start of Elise.
RCA 6as7g
Hitachi 6sn7gtb
Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231 black glass
GEC 6080
GEC 6as7g

So looking back a year ago, those were some significant purchases. Some very important tubes, especially power tubes. Important purchases I'd say.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow attmci and mordy, you've linked some really cheap power tubes. Cheap tubes but the shipping double the price of the tube to be send to me !!! 

I've been trying to get hold of a pair of Tung Sol 6080 though.... just can't see it.


----------



## UntilThen

Suuup, may I entice you back into head-fi again. 

May I entice you with these items:-

Yggdrasil, Euforia, La Figaro 339, HD800.   These items goes to make up my main listening rig now and they are miles ahead of what I had before.... which is NAD d1050, Elise, T1. 

Head-fi has bitten deep but I'm very satisfied with what I hear now...... guess I said that a year ago too.


----------



## UntilThen

I put on the T1 now.... after almost one month since I last use it. Wow... I had almost forgotten the tone that I once was so familiar with. It is still fun and enjoyable but not as much as the HD800 that I got used to and love now. Actually I use my HD800 and HD650 more now. T1 has been relegated to a distant 3rd. Don't know why.... 

As I say, T1 is still a premium sounding tone. Wow the sweet melodies enveloping my ears now are just so ...... N I C E. 

I am glad I have these 3 headphones. Perfect with my OTL amps and gear.


----------



## UntilThen

Yggy's been left on for 1 month and 8 days now. It's a transformed tone now from day 1.

Sound is mature, enveloping, fleshed out, denser, individual notes have muscles now, vocals are projected to my ears so life like. Those female singers are singing right into my ears. So intimate.  Any closer I would feel their lips touching my ears.  Scary thought. 

I know this sound stupid but Yggy sounds like my vinyl now except with details galore and pitch black background.

The day that Yggy is taken away from me, would be a sad, sad day..... that is not going to happen. Nope.

Oh.... guess I should sell the NAD d1050 now.... the box is still new.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 28, 2017)

Haven't had the chance to listen to anything else except the HD600 but after reading miles of reports on head gear I feel I'm happily predisposed to the leaner of the Sennheiser sound signature. Once I almost jumped on a pair of T1, but after the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6an7w (not to mention all my other recent additions which al gave me very satisfying sounds) I don't think I want to stray too far off the sound signature.
Perhaps then my next level game will be to follow in your footsteps UT, and find my way to a bargain set of Yggy etc. That, provided I take care of all my other financial obligations or risk divorce!


----------



## angpsi

Any opinions on the GEC 6070WA? Never heard anything about them and I just stumbled on to this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/172732300985


----------



## UntilThen

Ok.... I am going to be shot and assassinated for saying this but I will say it just this once. My wife thinks that I am done buying anymore amps.... so do I ...... for now. 

However, my altered ego tells me that a year from now, I'll place my order for this..... 


 

SORRY for going off topic again.... just pretend you didn't see this.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Any opinions on the *GEC 6070WA*? Never heard anything about them and I just stumbled on to this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/172732300985



What???? !!!!   I have never ever dever heard of 6070WA in all of my life.

That looks exactly like the GEC 6080 that I have. Is this a trick question?


----------



## UntilThen

Angelo, you're not supposed to have seen that blue amp with 2A3 tubes.... so it's not possible for you to like it. By the way, it was you increasing my 'like' count. I thought something's wrong with my 'like' counter.

Now you know why I say 'I'm done buying tubes...' because those 2A3 will bankrupt me. If I get one of each brand that is....


----------



## Suuup

UntilThen said:


> Interesting. I check my ebay purchase exactly a year ago. Since then I've purchased these tubes:-
> 
> Bendix 6080wb
> RCA 6080
> ...


Oh wow, UT has almost 8000 posts -- I remember back when he had <1000  Good times, I miss talking to ya'll.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Perhaps then my next level game will be to follow in your footsteps UT, and find my way to a bargain set of Yggy etc. That, provided I take care of all my other financial obligations or risk divorce!



Angelo, if you follow my footsteps, the Sydney Opera House will be your listening room and the Harbour Bridge will be your bridge over troubled waters. That is if you buy the Yggy and HD800 with Draug V2 cable. Whilst I can guarantee you will be really happy with this setup, I can't on the other hand, guarantee your continued marital bliss. You may need a new wife who is as keen on head-fi and spend more on it than you.


----------



## UntilThen

Suuup said:


> Oh wow, UT has almost 8000 posts -- I remember back when he had <1000  Good times, I miss talking to ya'll.



Suuup you know why I'm almost 8000 posts right? That's because you weren't helping me with the post count !!! Remember there were just 2 of us back then that one Autumn grey and cloudy day....


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I don't think I want to stray too far off the sound signature.



Hello? I like the Senn's sound too but I think I can entice you to a new sound signature. It's call Focal Utopia. This headphone and it's sound will change you. Literally. Figuratively and fortune nate ly. 

Some headphones are good but the Utopia is great.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm not sure why I kept this for so long. Most of my vintage stuff have disappeared, like my Mitsubishi sound system. 

However I still have this Sony Walkman portable CD player. It is still like NEW and in good playing condition. It even have a portable 'AAA' battery capsule in addition to AC power.


----------



## mordy

So here is my suggestion for the budget conscious Feliks Elise/Euforia owner - if you are lucky the four tubes will cost around $28, and these are guaranteed to please: A relaxed, non-fatiguing musical presentation; not the most detailed and analytical, but very sweet and pleasing.

Drivers: Foton 6H8C for $7.94/pair including shipping
Powers: RCA 6AS7G for around $20/pair including shipping if you shop carefully and have a little patience. 

In addition, you can impress your neighbors with the nice tube glow:


----------



## angpsi (Jun 28, 2017)

Well you inspire me once again to share! Here's my own Diskman, followed by my precious MiniDisk. The Discman says 1bit DAC; give it some time and I'm sure it will be acknowledged as a true audiophile sleeper and everyone will copy it, same as they did with R2R!!! And I'm gonna sell mine as true vintage for the price of a second hand Yggdrasil and live in my own Sydney Opera House!


----------



## angpsi

@mordy did you join in on the HD6xx?


----------



## angpsi

Wow, 600 pages! Next step is to go for 10000 posts...


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> @mordy did you join in on the HD6xx?


Hi A,

Nyet. Two things: The cable is 6' instead of 10, and the projected delivery date is end of December. By that time hopefully I'll find a deal on a good used one for less.....


----------



## UntilThen

You win Angie. Your minidisc and discman are more vintage. Certainly worth keeping.


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy you are a true saleman now. Guaranteed to please is a mandatory catchphrase here if you are implying a top quality sound.

Fotons & Rca 6as7g is satisfaction guaranteed for a warm and lush tone.


----------



## UntilThen

In the local ads here, someone is selling their new unused HD6xx for $280 aussie dollars.

There are 3 buyers waiting in queue within a minute of the ad being posted.


----------



## UntilThen

When I post my burn in, mother of pearl Gec 6as7g curved base 1965 for sale at $1000, there will be 5 people in queue to buy....


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi A,
> 
> Nyet. Two things: The cable is 6' instead of 10, and the projected delivery date is end of December. By that time hopefully I'll find a deal on a good used one for less.....


Did you get my pm? Lots of bargains out there already...


----------



## angpsi

Things are heating up in my home country: there's potential interest to do a local head-fi meet on the occasion of the Elise. Looks like a good opportunity both for my education and for introducing the Elise to the local scene - apparently I'm the only one who owns it! If Feliks' sales go up after the meet I'll be receiving my commission in the form of Euforia please!


----------



## UntilThen

You better guard Elise with all your life and make sure you have $10,000 insurance on it. 

Can you imagine if you add Yggy or Gumby and hd800 to your setup. Greece will be lit up. Santorini will be more blue.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright @connieflyer  the Gec 6as7g is boxed with so many layers of bubble wrap, you might be heavily custom tax but I wrote it as a GIFT. I ain't lying right?


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> (...) The cable is 6' instead of 10 (...)


Go to say the 10ft cable keeps getting tangled in my feet all the time! There's definitely a good chance something will eventually break it if this goes on as badly as it is going right now. So a 6ft cable would be very welcome in my case.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> You better guard Elise with all your life and make sure you have $10,000 insurance on it.
> 
> Can you imagine if you add Yggy or Gumby and hd800 to your setup. Greece will be lit up. Santorini will be more blue.


Given the experience of the last meet I'm going against the likes of Questyle, Stax, HD800, etc! Definitely a good opportunity for me to learn, and hopefully Elise will hold its own! I don't think anyone owns any multibit Schiit though, what a pity...


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Go to say the 10ft cable keeps getting tangled in my feet all the time! There's definitely a good chance something will eventually break it if this goes on as badly as it is going right now. So a 6ft cable would be very welcome in my case.



Believe me, I don't want a 10ft headphone cable when my amps are less than 3 feet from me. I coil up my cables all the time which is ridiculous. 

See it's all coiled up !!! I want to snip it shorter or buy another Cardas 1.5m


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Given the experience of the last meet I'm going against the likes of Questyle, Stax, HD800, etc! Definitely a good opportunity for me to learn, and hopefully Elise will hold its own! I don't think anyone owns any multibit Schiit though, what a pity...



To tell you the truth, I don't mind swapping my mother of pearl system with a Yggy, Stax SR-009 and Blue Hawaii..... because as age catches up, I'm more into refinement than more BraZILIAN SAMBA.


----------



## hypnos1 (Jun 28, 2017)

mordy said:


> UT is always exaggerating lol - AUD15.000 is only USD11.351.........Why not spray paint the deck? Easier than painting by hand - you can buy or rent a paint sprayer.
> 
> So far the only 6SN7 tubes I do not like so much are the OEM TS Russian reissue. They sound too syrupy and slow. ATM breaking the rules with a pair of 6SN7GTB Sylvania Chrome Top from 1955 and a RCA VT-231 smoked glass from whenever (possibly 40's) and a pair of non recommended EL12N as powers. Personally, IMHO, the EL12N is a worthy substitute for the fabled GEC 6AS7G.



Hi mordy and guys galore...finally managed to catch up with just a few of the pages I've been missing lately, and your post has prompted me to say just a couple (?!) of words before zzzzzzzzzz.

I too have just revisited a previously loved combo of Sylvania "Chrome Dome" 7N7 + NU Black Glass 6SN7 (amongst the finest of this family, to be sure lol!) driving my GEC CV2523s, as part of my extensive temperature testing of the entire internals of my Euforia, to confirm that the EL11/12 (Spezials, in my case) combo does *not* cause any overheating issues...and already I am extremely surprised at my initial findings - pleasantly so, lol! . And from cursory tests of the case and trafo housing before opening her up again properly tomorrow, this 'standard'/approved setup of 6SN7/6AS7G is running at far higher temperatures....(will post the actual figures here and on the Euforia thread tomorrow, as I want to reassure any folks who may still be interested in using the EL tubes - and will also be posting my in-depth comparison between my own EL setup and the aforementioned combo, to complement my comments already made when comparing with the Mullard ECC31/GEC setup). Plus, I have my own points to make re. use of these tubes, and I shan't be pulling any punches LOL!!! ...CHEERS!...and G'night all...


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> Hi attmci,
> 
> $17 for one tube - too expensive! I think I paid $14 for a pair of these incl shipping....All right, you may have to buy a sleeve of 5 to get that price.
> I have 6080 tubes from Chatham, Tung Sol, RCA, GE, Sylvania, Philips, Raytheon, Mullard. I guess that I have to revisit them again with the Euforia. I have only been using the Bendix 6080WB lately.
> ...


https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6080-mullard-nos-boxed-valvetube/

Mordy,  that must be a while ago.  It cost about 30 pounds now without shipping.


----------



## attmci

hypnos1 said:


> Hi mordy and guys galore...finally managed to catch up with just a few of the pages I've been missing lately, and your post has prompted me to say just a couple (?!) of words before zzzzzzzzzz.
> 
> I too have just revisited a previously loved combo of Sylvania "Chrome Dome" 7N7 + NU Black Glass 6SN7 (amongst the finest of this family, to be sure lol!) driving my GEC CV2523s, as part of my extensive temperature testing of the entire internals of my Euforia, to confirm that the EL11/12 (Spezials, in my case) combo does *not* cause any overheating issues...and already I am extremely surprised at my initial findings - pleasantly so, lol! . And from cursory tests of the case and trafo housing before opening her up again properly tomorrow, this 'standard'/approved setup of 6SN7/6AS7G is running at far higher temperatures....(will post the actual figures here and on the Euforia thread tomorrow, as I want to reassure any folks who may still be interested in using the EL tubes - and will also be posting my in-depth comparison between my own EL setup and the aforementioned combo, to complement my comments already made when comparing with the Mullard ECC31/GEC setup). Plus, I have my own points to make re. use of these tubes, and I shan't be pulling any punches LOL!!! ...CHEERS!...and G'night all...


Give me all your collection  because you will get something new soon.


----------



## Tim Le

My Fotons came in the mail today! Unfortunately, it looks like the plastic mounting rod (is that what it's called?) is broken off. Is it safe to use in my Elise?


----------



## attmci

UntilThen said:


> Wow attmci and mordy, you've linked some really cheap power tubes. Cheap tubes but the shipping double the price of the tube to be send to me !!!
> 
> I've been trying to get hold of a pair of Tung Sol 6080 though.... just can't see it.


Same here UT. I made the purchase just because of that box......... After that, I got a lot of BR 6080WB at very reasonable price.


----------



## attmci

Tim Le said:


> My Fotons came in the mail today! Unfortunately, it looks like the plastic mounting rod (is that what it's called?) is broken off. Is it safe to use in my Elise?


I will ask the seller. Any broken glass?


----------



## Tim Le

attmci said:


> I will ask the seller. Any broken glass?



Nope, the tubes are in perfect condition otherwise. I couldn't find the broken plastic in the little box it shipped in, so it was broken off before it was ever placed in the box and shipped to me.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg where do I start. So many things to reply to.


----------



## UntilThen

Hey @hypnos1 give me all your tubes and I will put it through a long term one year test on my upgraded Elise. 

We will see if the tubes or the tube amp survives.

@attmci please queue up. I am first in line for H1 tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Attmci the Bendix seller is my seller. So sell me those 3 Bendix now for $100.

No arguments here.


----------



## UntilThen

Tim that plastic bit that is missing is the guide pin. Without it you really need to know how to insert the Fotons or it will explode.

No self respecting seller will sell a cheap Foton without the guide pins.


----------



## attmci

UntilThen said:


> Attmci the Bendix seller is my seller. So sell me those 3 Bendix now for $100.
> 
> No arguments here.


Sure.
The shipping and process fee will be  $180.


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> Sure.
> The shipping and process fee will be  $180.



@#$/^&* u


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> Tim that plastic bit that is missing is the guide pin. Without it you really need to know how to insert the Fotons or it will explode.
> 
> No self respecting seller will sell a cheap Foton without the guide pins.



So as long as it's oriented properly, it should be fine? 

Fortunately it was a pretty clean break, and it's easy to see which way the original guide pin was pointing.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes its fine if pointed correctly. All roads leads not to Rome but Australia.


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> Yes its fine if pointed correctly. All roads leads not to Rome but Australia.



For $4/tube, the Fotons sound amazing, UT. Thanks for the recommendation.

With that being said, you need to listen to some ken-rads when you have the chance. I still think they're better.. and not just because they have better bass


----------



## attmci

Tim Le said:


> For $4/tube, the Fotons sound amazing, UT. Thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> With that being said, you need to listen to some ken-rads when you have the chance. I still think they're better.. and not just because they have better bass


Let me know where you can find Kentucky Radio for $4 (P.S. not those stupid GE re-brands).


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2017)

hypnos1 said:


> Hi mordy and guys galore...finally managed to catch up with just a few of the pages I've been missing lately, and your post has prompted me to say just a couple (?!) of words before zzzzzzzzzz.
> 
> I too have just revisited a previously loved combo of Sylvania "Chrome Dome" 7N7 + NU Black Glass 6SN7 (amongst the finest of this family, to be sure lol!) driving my GEC CV2523s, as part of my extensive temperature testing of the entire internals of my Euforia, to confirm that the EL11/12 (Spezials, in my case) combo does *not* cause any overheating issues...and already I am extremely surprised at my initial findings - pleasantly so, lol! . And from cursory tests of the case and trafo housing before opening her up again properly tomorrow, this 'standard'/approved setup of 6SN7/6AS7G is running at far higher temperatures....(will post the actual figures here and on the Euforia thread tomorrow, as I want to reassure any folks who may still be interested in using the EL tubes - and will also be posting my in-depth comparison between my own EL setup and the aforementioned combo, to complement my comments already made when comparing with the Mullard ECC31/GEC setup). Plus, I have my own points to make re. use of these tubes, and I shan't be pulling any punches LOL!!! ...CHEERS!...and G'night all...



What must be remembered is that tube amps will run hot. If Feliks Audio says that 6sn7 and 6as7 is ok to run with Elise and Euforia, then there's nothing to fear. For example, my La Figaro 339 runs much hotter than Elise and Euforia but it has never overheat in the 4 years of it's life.

One cannot gauge the suitability of tubes based on the heat it generates. Consequently, EL tubes generating less heat doesn't mean it's more suitable for Elise and Euforia. Clearly the specs are vastly different from 6sn7 and 6as7.

Main thing for me is, 'What does the manufacturer recommends'. If I buy Elise and I always end up using tubes that are not recommended by FA, then there is only one question one need to ask. 'Why do I buy FA amps then if Lukasz is so adamant that Elise is solely and specifically tuned for 6sn7 and 6as7.

What is the most disturbing argument is his statement. 'No clue why people say that EL tubes sound better than 6sn7 and 6as7..... at least technically it shouldn't be'. This is coming straight from Lukasz. He is puzzled how EL tubes can sound better than 6sn7 and 6as7 in Elise. Remember the FA team tried out a pair of EL11 tubes in their workshop.

I don't consider ECC31 as FA's recommended tubes and as such I don't use it. A pair of ECC31 generates 2a. For that matter, I have never crave for the ECC32 heat generator.

For 1.5 years, I've run with mostly non recommended drivers in Elise. This is where I stop. What others choose to do is their choice. However it won't be me promoting the non recommended tubes anymore until Feliks Audio 'ok' it.

Problem with our creativity is that it spawns a generation of copycats that will try to outdo everyone else. Hence the Christmas tree setup and admittedly my own experiment of using six EL3Ns in Elise.

Never again though. I'm more than satisfied with 6sn7 and 6as7 in Elise. If I am not, it's time to buy another amp.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2017)

Tim Le said:


> For $4/tube, the Fotons sound amazing, UT. Thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> With that being said, you need to listen to some ken-rads when you have the chance. I still think they're better.. and not just because they have better bass



There are a lot of 6sn7 that I don't have and I don't intend to buy them all. I do have about 20 6sn7s now, more than sufficient for my needs. Besides I just know that this is not the end of the road for me in terms of tube amps. Make no mistake, I think Euforia is very good at the $1399 price point. I have often wondered what better means. It's a high price to pay in this hobby.

However I do not conceal the fact that the DNA Stratus is the amp I'm eyeing before I call it quits.....

This is the plan ..... Yggy > DNA Stratus > HD800.


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> Let me know where you can find Kentucky Radio for $4 (P.S. not those stupid GE re-brands).



You can have Kentucky Fried Chicken for $4 and it ain't bad if you're driving on the highway and there's no food stop in sight...... except dead kangaroos on the road side.


----------



## attmci

UntilThen said:


> You can have Kentucky Fried Chicken for $4 and it ain't bad if you're driving on the highway and there's no food stop in sight...... except dead kangaroos on the road side.


How do u like your KFC,  I mean 7N7 tubes?  Comparing to the 6sn7w?


----------



## angpsi

I popped in a digital transfer of the "Fi analogue productions Sampler" on Audirvana and the sound coming out of my HD600 is uncanny! The GEC6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w is officially my overall best combination for the Elise. I'll only be shelling out money for GEC 6as7g etc. once I upgrade to Yggdrasil / Euforia / HD800. Notice that I'm saying "once", not "if"; and I still think I'll have a hard time letting go of my current setup. A _very_ sweet spot indeed!


----------



## connieflyer

@hypnos1, here is the Koi song so you can listen and enjoy will tending the Koi pond!


----------



## connieflyer

I have three Raytheon6080 wb slotted graphite plate tubes am willing to part with


----------



## connieflyer

@hypnos1 here is another cut, about nine and a half minutes in hes switches to a huge war drum, you can listen to this as you go on the warpath against bugs.


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> How do u like your KFC,  I mean 7N7 tubes?  Comparing to the 6sn7w?



I don't use my 7N7 much now. With so many 6sn7 to choose from, I'm resisting using adapters as much as possible. 

Using any of the 6sn7 sounds good and musical but 6sn7w lets in the light more. It reveals more. That is quite obvious when comparing with other 6sn7s. However, as I said before, you don't always want to or need to hear everything. Sometimes we are just happy to snap on the HD650 and just enjoy good old fashion music. Other times, we want to put on the HD800 and listen to the singers breathe in between each line.

Btw I lied. I never like KFC. I won't expand on it because I might get sued.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2017)

angpsi said:


> once I upgrade to Yggdrasil / Euforia / HD800. Notice that I'm saying "once", not "if"; and I still think I'll have a hard time letting go of my current setup. A _very_ sweet spot indeed!



I would be lying if I say that your current Meridian Explorer 2 > Elise > HD600 didn't sound good. However, the weakness there is the DAC, believe me. It's not the most revealing DAC but then again as I said, time and time again, sometimes we don't need to or want to hear everything. It's just like my previous NAD d1050. I didn't think I was missing anything using it. It was a bit warm and relaxing, When someone made a comment that it sounded 'blur' I took offence.  I told myself, this guy knows nothing, absolutely nothing. I don't want to or need to hear everything. I only need to hear the essentials notes. You know the midrange? because midrange is king.

However I was wrong..so wrong. Yggy showed me that you can have your midrange aka king, as well as your treble aka your sharp mistress and your bass aka your voluptuous mistress. In other words, you can have everything and still enjoy it musically. Yup key word here is musically. That Yggy does and does so well, you wonder how it is possible.

So.... upgrading to Yggy > Euforia > HD800 should be enough for most king.... unless you're not most king. This setup will run rings around your previous setup. This is the beautiful or frustrating thing about a head-fi system. Just when you think you have the best, along comes a better best until you go bust.

In all this, I'm reminded what a great contribution Steve Jobs has on mankind. He gave us a simple and cheap device. An Apple iPod and a ear bud. You could just enjoy music with that and not worry about spending too much. However you then realise that Steve has an incredible vinyl system that he listens to, when he wasn't telling us how great iPod was. That's all in the past now though. Who cares about iPod now. All we want is our Utopia.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> I have three Raytheon6080 wb slotted graphite plate tubes am willing to part with



Why?

Next to the Gec 6as7g, the Bendix 6080wb are my most cherished power tubes. It is my Chief Of Staff remember? Or the Master Chef in Halo? Don't let the Raytheon 6080wb go. Those solid graphite plates are solid gold.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2017)

Often times when I start writing I don't really know how I will end. You just have to let it go with the flow. As your mind takes you.

Listen to this Jim Carrey impressions of Clint Eastwood. He had no preparation but he said all the right things... enough to make Clint himself laugh. That in essence is a gift. Make yourself laugh... well forget about making others laugh. If you can't make yourself laugh, forget about making others laugh. It has to work on yourself first. Try it...... say something funny to yourself....


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2017)

The 1st Head-Fi Meet I ever attended in my life, I was impressed by one system. It was no ordinary system. Even the headphone cables are flat and thick. Never ever seen anything like it. It smells of quality.
So I walk over to this desk that sits the Blue Hawaii and a duo of Stax headphones and a mini Sennheiser Orpheus. I was intrigued. The name Blue Hawaii .... that's a genius. What a great name. I mean if you call a tube amp, Abercrombie, no one will take notice but when you name it Blue Hawaii, everyone will sit upright.

Anyway, there I was putting on the Stax SR-009 on my head, making sure I knew where the left and right was and I press play... oooooo so clear, so articulate, so refined, so priceless tone. I finish jazz song after jazz song. Then I walk back to my own desk of Elise and T1 still amazed at what I heard. However you know what? I didn't even noticed that the DAC used was the Yggy. Yes it's Yggy sitting there like a printer and unpretentious. That was my first introduction to Yggy and I didn't even know that the marvellous tunes I was hearing was in part, due to Yggdrasil, the unpretentious tree.


----------



## connieflyer

Perhaps I shall paint them gol so I will remember!!


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> There are a lot of 6sn7 that I don't have and I don't intend to buy them all. I do have about 20 6sn7s now, more than sufficient for my needs. Besides I just know that this is not the end of the road for me in terms of tube amps. Make no mistake, I think Euforia is very good at the $1399 price point. I have often wondered what better means. It's a high price to pay in this hobby.
> 
> However I do not conceal the fact that the DNA Stratus is the amp I'm eyeing before I call it quits.....
> 
> This is the plan ..... Yggy > DNA Stratus > HD800.



Does that mean you'll be selling your Euforia? I call dibs.


----------



## Tim Le

connieflyer said:


> I have three Raytheon6080 wb slotted graphite plate tubes am willing to part with



How much would you part with them for?


----------



## hypnos1

attmci said:


> Give me all your collection  because you will get something new soon.



Hi attmci...sorry, but will be keeping them (the 'old' collection) for a short while - purely for sentimental reasons!

And I shall not be bothering ever again to try and find any tubes that _might_ just surpass what my EL11/12 Spezial combo is delivering - especially when fed from the Naim Uniti Core, with the ASF3000 providing the power to all....and my reasons are given in more detail in my next post, in which I also hope to place a few more facts into what I believe has suddenly become a very distorted picture regarding the EL family, despite the honest findings of a good few (knowledgeable and experienced) members not so long ago...


----------



## mordy

connieflyer said:


> I have three Raytheon6080 wb slotted graphite plate tubes am willing to part with


HI CF,

I am interested in the Raytheons - please send me a PM


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> I popped in a digital transfer of the "Fi analogue productions Sampler" on Audirvana and the sound coming out of my HD600 is uncanny! The GEC6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w is officially my overall best combination for the Elise. I'll only be shelling out money for GEC 6as7g etc. once I upgrade to Yggdrasil / Euforia / HD800. Notice that I'm saying "once", not "if"; and I still think I'll have a hard time letting go of my current setup. A _very_ sweet spot indeed!


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> I popped in a digital transfer of the "Fi analogue productions Sampler" on Audirvana and the sound coming out of my HD600 is uncanny! The GEC6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w is officially my overall best combination for the Elise. I'll only be shelling out money for GEC 6as7g etc. once I upgrade to Yggdrasil / Euforia / HD800. Notice that I'm saying "once", not "if"; and I still think I'll have a hard time letting go of my current setup. A _very_ sweet spot indeed!


Hi Angpsi,

Just got a notice that the HD650 price has dropped to $200 - over 10,000 sold. The run is limited to 11,500. Could not resist and bought it.


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Hi attmci...sorry, but will be keeping them (the 'old' collection) for a short while - purely for sentimental reasons!
> 
> And I shall not be bothering ever again to try and find any tubes that _might_ just surpass what my EL11/12 Spezial combo is delivering - especially when fed from the Naim Uniti Core, with the ASF3000 providing the power to all....and my reasons are given in more detail in my next post, in which I also hope to place a few more facts into what I believe has suddenly become a very distorted picture regarding the EL family, despite the honest findings of a good few (knowledgeable and experienced) members not so long ago...


Hi h1,

Personally I am not convinced that the internal temperature of the amp is a good barometer on how safe it is is to use certain tubes. My *guess* is that the auto biasing circuit could get overworked and lead to failure of certain circuits under certain conditions (not necessary EL tubes). I stress that I am only guessing.


----------



## attmci

UntilThen said:


> I don't use my 7N7 much now. With so many 6sn7 to choose from, I'm resisting using adapters as much as possible.
> 
> Using any of the 6sn7 sounds good and musical but 6sn7w lets in the light more. It reveals more. That is quite obvious when comparing with other 6sn7s. However, as I said before, you don't always want to or need to hear everything. Sometimes we are just happy to snap on the HD650 and just enjoy good old fashion music. Other times, we want to put on the HD800 and listen to the singers breathe in between each line.
> 
> Btw I lied. I never like KFC. I won't expand on it because I might get sued.



I don,'t like KFC either. 

I heard NU 7n7 are quite good.  I wanna to giveita try because I like NU 6sn7gt smoke glass.


----------



## mordy

Tim Le said:


> For $4/tube, the Fotons sound amazing, UT. Thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> With that being said, you need to listen to some ken-rads when you have the chance. I still think they're better.. and not just because they have better bass


Hi Tim Lee,

There is no doubt that the seller should replace the tube missing the guide pin - just ask him to do it free of charge. On the other hand, a tube missing the guide pin is perfectly usable, as long as it is inserted properly. As you describe it, most of the time you can see a little point on the base where the ridge on the guide pin was. Then you could mark that spot with a little sticker or colored tape so that you know how to insert it. Putting it in the wrong way could have dire consequences.


----------



## connieflyer

Just got a great deal on a pair of Gold Aero 6sn7GT's , Member was asking for them to be identified, some said China, Member then offered them for $10 shipping and Paypal included, I jumped on them, I am pretty sure they are made by RCA like my 5998A's


----------



## pctazhp

I have pulled all my horses from all races, and erased all opinions on everything from my mind. I have printed up a number of banners and pasted them everywhere in my home that say "YOU HAVE PLENTY TO WORRY ABOUT, BUT BE HAPPY ANYWAY".

And I am still lurking here.


----------



## Suuup

UntilThen said:


> Believe me, I don't want a 10ft headphone cable when my amps are less than 3 feet from me. I coil up my cables all the time which is ridiculous.
> 
> See it's all coiled up !!! I want to snip it shorter or buy another Cardas 1.5m


UT why do we have the exact same headphones? I have T1, HD800, and HD650 as well 

Got great deals on both HD650 and HD800. 150$ for the HD650 and 390$ for the HD800


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> Does that mean you'll be selling your Euforia? I call dibs.



Nope. 

I won't be selling my Euforia or my La Figaro 339 even if I should get that final blue tube amp.

You see I love my OTL amps with all the precious 6sn7 and 6as7 / 6080. Especially the latter. I have the complete essential power tubes now.... I dont have the WE 421A but I dont care too much for that as I think the 5998 is very similiar to it.

Will probably sell the upgraded Elise and DV336se though.


----------



## UntilThen

Suuup said:


> UT why do we have the exact same headphones? I have T1, HD800, and HD650 as well
> 
> Got great deals on both HD650 and HD800. 150$ for the HD650 and 390$ for the HD800



Really? 

How do you like the Hd800 and 650?

I love the hd800 so much I sleep with it every night....


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Just got a great deal on a pair of Gold Aero 6sn7GT's , Member was asking for them to be identified, some said China, Member then offered them for $10 shipping and Paypal included, I jumped on them, I am pretty sure they are made by RCA like my 5998A's



Hey that is imitation brown base. 

Just kidding. Not everything that comes out of China is bad....

How does that combo sound?


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> I don,'t like KFC either.
> 
> I heard NU 7n7 are quite good.  I wanna to giveita try because I like NU 6sn7gt smoke glass.



Yeah sure go for it.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Personally I am not convinced that the internal temperature of the amp is a good barometer on how safe it is is to use certain tubes. My *guess* is that the auto biasing circuit could get overworked and lead to failure of certain circuits under certain conditions (not necessary EL tubes). I stress that I am only guessing.



A profound statement indeed. Mordy kind of nail it.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't say the non recommended tubes didn't sound good. They are ... I tried them.

However, and this is a big however.... if the manufacturer doesn't approve of it and if it would void any warranty repairs, then I won't touch the forbidden fruits. Hope I make myself clear here.

I did not change my mind about the sonics of EL3N and EL11 / 12. They are great sounding tubes. Even Glenn agree or he wouldn't make a customised GEL3N with the best transformers. However as any newbie will know., it's not the tube themselves but the amps's implementation of it.

Granted Elise 'works' with many of these non recommended tubes and sound good !!! but as Lukasz said.... 'in the long run, the amps will suffer'.


----------



## hypnos1

OK folks...time for a more balanced perspective on the use of the EL family of tubes in our amps, based upon a closer inspection of *facts!
*
But firstly, I appreciate your position on this @UntilThen, and that of F-A, and applaud the recommendations to stay within the configured-for tube combinations. This is indeed the safest option for those who do not wish to 'stray' from that path, and I certainly do not expect/want anyone to take any unnecessary risks with either their Elise or Euforia.

But by the same token, I cannot see a great deal of time, effort and money totally negated without due consideration for all sides of this argument. And so in order to try and regain some kind of balance, I proffer my own stance, based upon what I regard as fairly solid facts that perhaps need stating/repeating...

As I see it, there are two distinct, and separate, topics that are most relevant here - firstly, the _safety_ of running these tubes, in light of recently stated _overheating_ issues (and which I have always proposed was *not* due to the use of EL tubes; and secondly, their *actual *performance *in real terms and different setups*, as opposed to their not being specifically configured for our amps.

First...no-one questions the heat aspect that amps are designed for as part of the specification, and some can indeed tolerate higher running temperatures than others. Plus, the fact of running the circuitry at lower than usual temperatures is obviously no indicator of overall better _performance/sound_...that is not the issue here. What my aim was in testing the 11/12 running temps was *purely* to ensure that in no way could they be blamed for "frying" any of the circuits... with incontrovertible evidence based upon extensive measurement of the entire internals...to wit...*every single resistor, capacitor and section of the circuit boards *ran 8 to 10deg C *lower *with the ELs, compared to the 6SN7/6AS7G combo. The section immediately below the transformer ran over *25deg C* *hotter *with the standard tubes. Both tests were carried out over 5hrs+ continuous running of each combo at high listening levels, at an ambient temperature of 23deg C.

This would indicate to me, at least, that we do not have any worries on _this_ score lol!

Second...regarding F-A's "surprise" at folks actually liking the sound of these tubes, I think the fact that a good many *did* (and probably still do, despite not repeating their own comments here ) possibly indicates that F-A simply didn't have sufficient time to trial them fully, given their extremely busy schedule at the time...especially as these tubes do need a lengthy period to "settle in" before performing anywhere near their best. Plus, they only tested the EL11 drivers, and therefore paired them with 6AS7G powers, not EL12s. I personally have found the 11s are MUCH happier driving the 12s, and then deliver a much better overall performance. 

I myself have been running EL tubes *continuously* in Elise, and now Euforia, for a very long time - longer than anyone else I imagine - and without the slightest hint of trouble whatsoever. Of course, this is no cast iron guarantee there will _never_ be any problems, but this is also true of ALL tubes and amp circuits. And as overheating of the latter by these tubes can probably now be fairly safely ruled out (and which appears to be the main, insidious tube-related cause of failure), any hint of the amp not being "happy" with them would surely become noticeable to the trained ear...and my own amp is *more* than happy with them - all the more so since my recent upgrades to the system!.... Further info on my own findings compared to ECC31/GEC CV2523 - mirrored  by my Sylvania "Chrome Dome" 7N7 + NU 6SN7 driver combo - are in my recent post over at the Euforia thread.

Hopefully this gives a bit clearer/more balanced view for folks still interested in these 'alternative' tubes...probably the least 'risky' of pretty well any other such tubes we have experimented with these past years...so long as one isn't unlucky with the tubes in the first place, being somewhat more unreliable than your average old tube!  Which is why one needs to be as sure as possible of easy returns if they should prove faulty!!

I repeat my joy at seeing so many folks really happy with the recommended tubes, and at how F-A have managed to bring out the best in them...both here in Elise land, and now in Euforia. They have indeed worked wonders...and all that remains for me myself is to see just how much further my amp can go with the Hugo 2 DAC/Amp in place...._when it arrives, lol!!!_....CHEERS!...


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> A profound statement indeed. Mordy kind of nail it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I didn't say the non recommended tubes didn't sound good. They are ... I tried them.
> 
> ...




I want to expand on this to state my position clearly. So please read it because I've included many extra statements.


----------



## connieflyer

UntilThen said:


> Hey that is imitation brown base.
> These tubes are sounding very good, only about an hour burn in on the 6sn7GT's but they do sound similar to the RCA silver label gt's I have from 1948, not quite as warm, but that could be the 5998A's also.  Funny as soon as the "experts" proclaimed looks Chinese to me, then they all saw the similarity except one guy that said maybe Mullard! The former owner could not believe no one jumped on the sale, but since "everyone" thought maybe cheap tubes no one took a chance even at $10 complete.  Nutz.  We exchanged emails a bit and could not understand it. Others may have wanted to try them but did not want to be looked down on from the "experts", so they lost, I won.
> 
> Just kidding. Not everything that comes out of China is bad....
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Personally I am not convinced that the internal temperature of the amp is a good barometer on how safe it is is to use certain tubes. My *guess* is that the auto biasing circuit could get overworked and lead to failure of certain circuits under certain conditions (not necessary EL tubes). I stress that I am only guessing.



Hi m...you might possibly have a point there, but from my understanding, there would be fairly obvious signs that tube and amp are not functioning well together, and indicate need for caution. 
Also, I'm quite sure that F-A would have pointed this out to me after their own trial, if it were to be such a potential hazard...even if in the long term - especially as I informed Lukasz of my temperature testing.

And given that most of the problems encountered have indeed been due to overheating issues, I think that is indeed therefore the most _likely_ indicator, although not the only one, of course.

I fear conclusions are being drawn on pure _conjecture_ rather than extended _probabilities_ even lol!!...(but at least you yourself qualify your statement as _guessing_...and of course my own statements are as an amateur, but with a certain justification, I feel....and with just a tad of comfort from Lukasz's confirmation that they themselves at least couldn't state any particular danger in using the EL tubes - just that the readings were "all over the place"...and which I'm sure could well have settled down if they'd been able to spend more time with them...especially if they had paired them with EL12 powers lol!).


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2017)

At the end of the day, it doesnt matter what we think. Lukasz told me that warranty will be void if you consistently roll with non recommended tubes.

This will matter to those who depend on the 3 years warranty.

Any manufacturer will tell you that.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 29, 2017)

What I dont understand is why we didnt push for EL tube amp when proposing the idea of an upgraded Elise. Instead we end up with Euforia which is a very refined 6sn7 and 6as7 OTL tube amp.

Now round about that time I actually brought up to Lukasz about doing a dedicated EL3N. He mentioned that it might be considered in future projects.

So given a 2nd chance, we still get a 6sn7 and 6as7 tube amp.... and we still continue to roll with EL11 and EL12 in Euforia and maintain that its the best.

Really makes no sense to me.

Believe me if we did get a dedicated EL11 / 12 amp, the folks here will move on to other exotic tubes.


----------



## Wreckgar7

All I can say in this is i really like the RFT EL11 as drivers paired with either TS5998 or GEC 6as7, although the only 6SN7 tubes i own are stock drivers and Sylvania 6SN7GTA.
So i can definitely recommend the EL11, BUT all need to be aware that its on their own risk.
On other matters, im interested in buying either Sylvania 6sn7wgt or 6sn7W. Can someone describe the difference in them? Maby even compare them to EL11?


----------



## UntilThen

Wreckgar7 said:


> *So i can definitely recommend the EL11*, BUT all need to be aware that its on their own risk.



The first part of the sentence is tricky. You cannot in all honesty say that you can definitely recommend the EL11, knowing full well that Feliks Audio doesn't endorsed it and will not honour any warranty claims arising from defects if they know you are using EL11 / EL12.

Even though you try to let the general public know with the second part of the sentence, *BUT all need to be aware that its on their own risk, *all they will see is the first part of the sentence.


----------



## UntilThen

I think the general public here wish to ignore this statement from Lukasz to me. If this is not clear as mud, I don't know what is. There is no justification to interpret this any other way. What is it that you do not understand about this statement from Feliks Audio's spokeman? Perhaps we know better than him or Feliks Audio?

*On EL11/12, these are completely out of spec in Elise/Euforia. We are a bit puzzled why people consider them "better" than good 6sn7 for example, no clue. Your Elise main circuits were pretty well fried, cannot exclude this was from using other tube types. So probably in most cases the amp will work but it may have impact on length of life and at least technically it shouldnt give any better (rather worse) sonical result.*


----------



## UntilThen

I am going to leave this thread now because I will be considered a nuisance for speaking up for Feliks Audio. If that is the case, so be it. 

I learn in my time on Head-Fi that there are 2 classifications of people. One who are creative and will experiment and modify or tuberised (if there's such a word). I.e. will experiment with as many varied tubes as possible, even in an amp specifically tuned for 6sn7 and 6as7. Unfortunately, this happen mainly in the Ember and Elise thread. The amount of experimentation on Elise thread is mind boggling. 

Go to La Figaro 339 thread. You don't see that happening. They will still use the tubes compliments as design by the manufacturer. Go to Eddie Current thread, same thing. Go to DNA Stratus thread, you will be stretchered out of the thread if you do decide to roll anything other than 2A3 tubes.


----------



## Wreckgar7 (Jun 30, 2017)

Wouldnt want you to leave the thread UT, you contribute so much here.
Regarding the warranty, im fully aware thats out the window when started using these tubes and also i have NO idea how it affects the amp in the long run, but we`ve known this since the EL3N tube, including you right?


I`d love to find a 6sn7 tube that matches the soundqualities of EL11, its just such a faboulous sound im getting with it


----------



## connieflyer

Last I heard there was no rules in this forum about having a difference of opinion. I have always valued conjecture and the difference that each mind brings to a formula , that being said I urge you not to leave you, are a voice that is steady and steadfast. We enjoy your input very much. Lucasz has made his point clear and you have to abide by the manufacturers rules if you want to enjoy the warranty that is provided. And I think so long as everyone is aware of the warranty conditions since they own their own amplifiers they are the ones that are at risk. I don't feel that it's necessary for people to recommend two combinations that are outside the warranty. However I don't have a problem with people trying other tubes and enjoying them and saying so. But it is with the understanding that doing so is at their own risk. UT you are a valuable member of this thread and would hate to see you go I am sure if you did that the thread would not be nearly as active or as interesting. I am kind of Like between a rock and a hard place two great friends are on opposite sides of the equation I am not willing to give up either I want both of you to stay on this thread and put in the input which you have all worked hard to do.





UntilThen said:


> I am going to leave this thread now because I will be considered a nuisance for speaking up for Feliks Audio. If that is the case, so be it.
> 
> I learn in my time on Head-Fi that there are 2 classifications of people. One who are creative and will experiment and modify or tuberised (if there's such a word). I.e. will experiment with as many varied tubes as possible, even in an amp specifically tuned for 6sn7 and 6as7. Unfortunately, this happen mainly in the Ember and Elise thread. The amount of experimentation on Elise thread is mind boggling.
> 
> Go to La Figaro 339 thread. You don't see that happening. They will still use the tubes compliments as design by the manufacturer. Go to Eddie Current thread, same thing. Go to DNA Stratus thread, you will be stretchered out of the thread if you do decide to roll anything other than 2A3 tubes.


----------



## UntilThen (Jun 30, 2017)

Difference of opinion is with Feliks Audio and those that don't agree with what they say. First time this happen in a major thread. Quite incredible, now that I think about.

My opinion is nothing but FA's opinion is, if you want to buy their amps. When the manufacturer tells you something, you listen. You don't argue. You don't say you know more than them. Reminds me of Schiit telling their customers to leave their multibit DACs on all the time but there are some who will say that's rubbish. Same scenario right?

Anyway enough of my talk. I have dabble with non recommended tubes for far too long. Hence my Elise is fried and need to be restored completely. I learn my lesson. Perhaps others need to learn it for themselves first hand, otherwise they will not listen.

Enough said. This is not a difference of opinion. This is madness. I've to go because I feel so strongly about this. We criticise @DecentLevi  for his outlandish Christmas tree and yet we justify ourselves on rolling completely different spec tubes. Where do you draw the line? Why do we even ask Feliks Audio in the first place to create Elise using 6sn7 and 6as7? For the fun of it I suppose.

Feliks Audio didn't sanction the use of pentodes as strapped triodes in Elise. Yuking on the other hand, design La Figaro 339n to use pentodes as the driver for his tube amp. That is the difference. Each manufacturer have their own design and knows what they do and what's best for their amps. This is common sense. This is not trivia difference of opinions.


----------



## pctazhp

Against my better judgment I'm going to weigh in. I started this thread when there were serious problems at the previous Elise thread over use of non-recommended Christmas Tree adapters and tubes. Hence the guidelines I outlined in the first post. That thread died and I fear this one may be meeting a similar fate.

There are facts and there are opinions. Reduced to its simplest form, I understand that the primary facts are that F-A won't cover damage due to use of non-recommended tubes AND the facts of H1's own temperature measurements and use of EL tubes. We know there is a risk of warranty coverage through use of non-recommended tubes. I don't think any of us really know the extent of the risk of doing so. As far as I know none of us are electrical engineers (I don't know the back ground of the F-A people). But I doubt that even most, if any, EEs would know the risk factor from use of non-recommended tubes in Elise. Substitution of non-recommended parts in amps is not common. 

But there certainly are audio and non-audio situations where people do make modifications of products knowing they are sacrificing warranty protection. I'm not a car guy, but I understand that is not uncommon with cars. Here on HeadFi  a number of mods to HD800 have been actively promoted over the years, with the understanding that such modifications probably void warranty protection.

So it seems to me to boil down to a personal decision for each of us as to whether to use non-recommended tubes or not. I'm personally sticking with recommended tubes, in part because I can't duplicate the EL11/12 arrangement that H1 has. Can't obtain a mesh plate EL11 nor an EL12 spez configured the way H1 did his. And I have a good collection of recommended tubes that work great for me.

I myself have decided for certain reasons to substantially decrease my participation on HeadFi. I've grown a little tired of the degree of controversy that I see develop when people report different experiences with the same tube, amp, DAC, headphone, etc, or float different theories on certain subjects. But I'm not critical to the continuation of this thread. UT probably is and I'm sorry if he is truly leaving. 

Wish everyone a good weekend and happy listening. Tomorrow I'm off to the the beach.


----------



## angpsi

I'm writing this off my cellphone so I can't expand longer but +1 from me on UT not leaving and keeping the thread alive. Otherwise who am I going to talk bikes with?


----------



## mordy

pctazhp said:


> Against my better judgment I'm going to weigh in. I started this thread when there were serious problems at the previous Elise thread over use of non-recommended Christmas Tree adapters and tubes. Hence the guidelines I outlined in the first post. That thread died and I fear this one may be meeting a similar fate.
> 
> There are facts and there are opinions. Reduced to its simplest form, I understand that the primary facts are that F-A won't cover damage due to use of non-recommended tubes AND the facts of H1's own temperature measurements and use of EL tubes. We know there is a risk of warranty coverage through use of non-recommended tubes. I don't think any of us really know the extent of the risk of doing so. As far as I know none of us are electrical engineers (I don't know the back ground of the F-A people). But I doubt that even most, if any, EEs would know the risk factor from use of non-recommended tubes in Elise. Substitution of non-recommended parts in amps is not common.
> 
> ...





pctazhp said:


> Against my better judgment I'm going to weigh in. I started this thread when there were serious problems at the previous Elise thread over use of non-recommended Christmas Tree adapters and tubes. Hence the guidelines I outlined in the first post. That thread died and I fear this one may be meeting a similar fate.
> 
> There are facts and there are opinions. Reduced to its simplest form, I understand that the primary facts are that F-A won't cover damage due to use of non-recommended tubes AND the facts of H1's own temperature measurements and use of EL tubes. We know there is a risk of warranty coverage through use of non-recommended tubes. I don't think any of us really know the extent of the risk of doing so. As far as I know none of us are electrical engineers (I don't know the back ground of the F-A people). But I doubt that even most, if any, EEs would know the risk factor from use of non-recommended tubes in Elise. Substitution of non-recommended parts in amps is not common.
> 
> ...


Hi UT and pct,

Please don't leave the thread - I enjoy reading your posts and the jokes! 
Don't know why the Feliks amps cause people to get upset - take a look at the Glenn thread with thousands of posts and no splits of the threads.
I have learned a lot from the various forum members, and I would like to continue to learn more about all the various facets of the building blocks in the music reproduction chain and what people's thoughts are.

One reason why the people on the Elise thread experimented was that many members came from the Little Dot thread where experimentation was *DU JOUR DE RIGEUR - *a daily occurrence.


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi UT and pct,
> 
> Please don't leave the thread - I enjoy reading your posts and the jokes!
> Don't know why the Feliks amps cause people to get upset - take a look at the Glenn thread with thousands of posts and no splits of the threads.
> ...



Thanks Mordy. I'm not leaving permanently. Just slowing down and taking a needed break. Obviously, I can't speak for UT, although I often like to try to speak for others)) I hope he stays.

I think you are dead on about the genesis of Elise experimentation. I didn't spend a lot of time with my LDIV SE (*). Before Mrs. X came up with an adapter for C3g I contacted H1 about possibly building a pair for me. That is what led me to Elise Land)))

* My Little Dot is virtually brand new and untouched by human hands. Anyone want to buy it??? ))))


----------



## hypnos1

Hey @UntilThen...I beg you to reconsider this whole situation, which _does _in fact come down to differences of opinion... and which, along with the 'creativity' you mentioned are precisely what made the F-A threads amongst the most popular here at head-fi for years now. And your own extensive research input has been a major factor in this success, for which I and most others are eternally grateful.

The downside of this is, of course, that your mammoth efforts resulted in the sad demise of your Elise, which had hitherto appeared immortal lol! But Lukasz's main reference in this regard (as quoted by yourself) was to the damage caused by _overheating_, which I have now proved beyond doubt was certainly *not* due to the EL tube family, and which confirmed my previous suspicions that something else was to blame, given the substantial browning of my own Elise's circuit boards long before we even knew about these particular tubes! And so IMHO this puts these tubes in a totally different position to those other previous experimental situations... as confirmed to me by Lukasz when *in this particular instance* F-A could not say if their 'unusual' readings might cause permanent damage in the long term, or not.

And throughout my own 'experimentation' Lukasz has *never* even hinted at great displeasure re. our different findings/opinions...the exact opposite, in fact - they have continually found it 'interesting', 'strange', 'unbelievable', "hard to understand"...but not once was I given dire warning, or asked to desist in my trials. And so, UT, this is therefore *not* any kind of malicious challenge to F-A's position/recommendations, which I'm sure Lukasz would be the first to confirm. His position is purely as would be expected - ie. any alteration to original spec _might_ result in problems,  and must therefore invalidate warranty conditions. This we have pointed out numerous times to folks who may be interested in trying any 'alternative' tubes, and it is their_ right _to take their own decision as to take the risk, or not. And we only have real, justifiable cause to possibly question such decisions if they appear _blatantly_ dangerous or foolish (in the light of _proven_, _undeniable_ knowledge of that _particular_ situation)... and not, if such specific evidence is only circumstantial.

And so, my friend, I ask that you take these points on board, and don't regard others' positions as any kind of threat/challenge...either against yourself or Feliks-Audio themselves - this is the true nature of valid debate. 

Your new-found position as champion for F-A's recommended tube complement is testament not only to them, and their products, but also to your sincerity in wishing to protect folks from any possible problems with their amps. But please don't let your own passion for this divert you away from the very 'openness of mind' that you and all the rest of us have encouraged and respected here from the very beginning. You are more than capable of reinforcing your own position _and_ accepting other's opinions...this is what we all truly hope you will decide upon, rather than leaving a dreadful hole in its place....that would not be fair on a good many folks, to be sure! If anyone's position here has become untenable, it is of course _mine_, for my stubborn stance...not yours!!...Best wishes for your reconsidered position...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## mordy

Back to tubes.....

ATM running Fotons with RCA 6AS7G tubes - the sound is getting better and better. It appears to me that these tubes have been sleeping since 1967 and 1953 lol.
Now they are slowly waking up and the sound is becoming delicious. _114 years of tube experience_ - *WOW!!!*


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> Hi UT and pct,
> 
> Please don't leave the thread - I enjoy reading your posts and the jokes!
> Don't know why the Feliks amps cause people to get upset - take a look at the Glenn thread with thousands of posts and no splits of the threads.
> ...


They won't leave.  They will hide somewhere just like me.  

AM I RIGHT,  U  T.? LOL


----------



## Tim Le

Even though both of you differ in opinion, the information you present is very honest and educative. I'm sure it's not only me who appreciates this.

 I enjoy coming home from work and having to catch up on 3 pages of posts; I too would miss if anyone were to leave.


----------



## Tim Le

mordy said:


> Back to tubes.....
> 
> ATM running Fotons with RCA 6AS7G tubes - the sound is getting better and better. It appears to me that these tubes have been sleeping since 1967 and 1953 lol.
> Now they are slowly waking up and the sound is becoming delicious. _114 years of tube experience_ - *WOW!!!*



I thought the Fotons sounded good out of the box, but not nearly as musical the ken-rads. How long have you been running them, and how is the sound improving? Thanks!


----------



## attmci

hypnos1 said:


> Hey @UntilThen...I beg you to reconsider this whole situation, which _does _in fact come down to differences of opinion... and which, along with the 'creativity' you mentioned are precisely what made the F-A threads amongst the most popular here at head-fi for years now. And your own extensive research input has been a major factor in this success, for which I and most others are eternally grateful.
> 
> The downside of this is, of course, that your mammoth efforts resulted in the sad demise of your Elise, which had hitherto appeared immortal lol! But Lukasz's main reference in this regard (as quoted by yourself) was to the damage caused by _overheating_, which I have now proved beyond doubt was certainly *not* due to the EL tube family, and which confirmed my previous suspicions that something else was to blame, given the substantial browning of my own Elise's circuit boards long before we even knew about these particular tubes! And so IMHO this puts these tubes in a totally different position to those other previous experimental situations... as confirmed to me by Lukasz when *in this particular instance* F-A could not say if their 'unusual' readings might cause permanent damage in the long term, or not.
> 
> ...



I am surprised and always wonder why the F-A's owner never come to here.............


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hey @UntilThen...I beg you to reconsider this whole situation...
> 
> *And so, my friend.....*
> 
> Your new-found position as champion for F-A's recommended tube complement is testament not only to them, and their products, but also to your sincerity in wishing to protect folks from any possible problems with their amps. But please don't let your own passion for this divert you away from the very 'openness of mind' that you and all the rest of us have encouraged and respected here from the very beginning. You are more than capable of reinforcing your own position _and_ accepting other's opinions...this is what we all truly hope you will decide upon, rather than leaving a dreadful hole in its place....that would not be fair on a good many folks, to be sure! If anyone's position here has become untenable, it is of course _mine_, for my stubborn stance...not yours!!...Best wishes for your reconsidered position...CHEERS!...CJ



Wow, against my better judgement (which the Law Ear quoted me - defamation coming Pct, for infringing on my trademark words), I log on after getting up in an ungodly hour - 3:56am..... and I have to work in the morning !!!

Anyway, time to digest what you wrote and I know I could not ignore some facts here. We *were* and *are* and *will be* friends... despite any difference of opinions. So thanks for reminding me about the friendship. That is more important that Head-Fi. More important than our wives. Ok don't let my wife know that. More important than Feliks Audio. Ok don't tell them that. 

Some things I need to dispute about what you say. I don't have a new-found position as champion for F-A's recommended tube complement. That position is taken by Old-Guy-Rayoila of ebay. That is why he sells super expensive 6sn7 and 6as7.

Sadly I realise I cannot change the world... I mean Head-Fi.... wait I mean this thread. There will be rollers and there will be strippers and there will be innocent bystanders.

So? How can I leave? If I do leave, as you said, 'I will miss my own writings and my own jokes'. Ok I'm contaminated now. When I first came here, I don't swear, I don't drink, I don't curse, I don't call someone Law Ear or Donkey Kong or Attilla the Hun .... but now my 'jokes' goes rampant. You ALL will regret you ask me to stay. Shane's story should be, he rode on his horse away, with Joey shouting, 'Shane, good luck and don't come back and don't tempt Ma ever again .....'

I'm going to sleep on this ... tomorrow if I log on and if there's a tomorrow.... I might find that the latest tube wonder is my bathroom light bulb. I will examine the light buld carefully. It might have a GEC sticker on it.

So I'm going back to sleep after a shot of whisky and some of the green stuff that attmci consumes .... 

CJ, you will always be a friend. This whole frigging thing is too trivial to throw friendship away. 

Cheers
UT.


----------



## angpsi (Jun 30, 2017)

Tim Le said:


> (...) I enjoy coming home from work and having to catch up on 3 pages of posts; I too would miss if anyone were to leave.


 Still off my iPhone, but my thoughts exactly! Of course you know I've been something of a minority report on the EL tubes, and have indeed bought quite a lot's worth on the word of this here thread to experiment; but that doesn't mean I haven't benefited from the knowledge, nor that I haven't reaped the benefits of the recent spree of commentary focused on kosher tubes. And of course, I have enjoyed immensely the occasional rants combined with quirky humor and talk about bikes! To be honest, the only thing I have ever found off putting in this wonderful thread is the occasional friction, and even the scolding DL has had to suffer often enough!

That said, I consider you guys wonderful company and I'd hate to lose this thread. In fact, if it dies I'll sell my Elise and buy myself UT's bicycle!


----------



## angpsi

@UntilThen, today I gave directions to a cheerful Aussie on how to get to the Acropolis Museum. It wasn't you, was it?


----------



## hypnos1 (Jun 30, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Wow, against my better judgement (which the Law Ear quoted me - defamation coming Pct, for infringing on my trademark words), I log on after getting up in an ungodly hour - 3:56am..... and I have to work in the morning !!!
> 
> Anyway, time to digest what you wrote and I know I could not ignore some facts here. We *were* and *are* and *will be* friends... despite any difference of opinions. So thanks for reminding me about the friendship. That is more important that Head-Fi. More important than our wives. Ok don't let my wife know that. More important than Feliks Audio. Ok don't tell them that.
> 
> ...





Tim Le said:


> Even though both of you differ in opinion, the information you present is very honest and educative. I'm sure it's not only me who appreciates this.
> 
> Glad you see the positive side of such differences and "friction" lol! The passion this hobby of ours can generate continues to surprise me still...it's just CRAZY!!  Fortunately, as UT says, our friendship is strong enough to see us through this patch, and I'm sure time will eventually shed new light on this whole issue...(actually, I have a secret death wish that my controversial tubes do indeed bring about an early demise...then I could warn others to stay well clear LOL!  But my bones convince me I'm stuck with these mistresses for a VERY long time...but then again, these ol' bones are getting older and more fragile by the day, so who knows?!!...
> 
> ...


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> @UntilThen, today I gave directions to a cheerful Aussie on how to get to the Acropolis Museum. It wasn't you, was it?



That was my altered ego. He was with a female named Irene right?


----------



## UntilThen

Sadly I check my bathroom light bulb this morning. It didnt have a GEC sticker but the sticker says EGG...

Any good?


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again @UntilThen...before I hit the hay, I'm not sure if you were able to see my reply to you in my last multi post, that seems to have got embedded in my reply to Tim Le...this is the last time I try multi - especially when trying to edit just one of the set lol!!!

Anyway, once again I shall repeat how glad I am that our friendship is indeed more important than any kind of differences, and that I can now sleep more soundly after your own reply...CHEERS and G'night...BFN...CJ

ps. My reply to you @attmci is also embedded there, it appears...sorry to you both...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## attmci

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again @UntilThen...before I hit the hay, I'm not sure if you were able to see my reply to you in my last multi post, that seems to have got embedded in my reply to Tim Le...this is the last time I try multi - especially when trying to edit just one of the set lol!!!
> 
> Anyway, once again I shall repeat how glad I am that our friendship is indeed more important than any kind of differences, and that I can now sleep more soundly after your own reply...CHEERS and G'night...BFN...CJ
> 
> ps. My reply to you @attmci is also embedded there, it appears...sorry to you both...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Saw that my friend. Have a nice weekend.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again @UntilThen...before I hit the hay, I'm not sure if you were able to see my reply to you in my last multi post, that seems to have got embedded in my reply to Tim Le...this is the last time I try multi - especially when trying to edit just one of the set lol!!!
> 
> Anyway, once again I shall repeat how glad I am that our friendship is indeed more important than any kind of differences, and that I can now sleep more soundly after your own reply...CHEERS and G'night...BFN...CJ
> 
> ps. My reply to you @attmci is also embedded there, it appears...sorry to you both...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



Hello CJ, I heard you loud and clear. 

We didnt survive 2 civil wars and 3 uprisings to be sunk by some tubes and blown up amps. 

Honestly no problems blowing up some tubes and amps. Might be fun. 

And who is this attmci? Identify yourself or we will reshape your jaw. Teasing me to buy WE 421A is a big no no... unless you are buying it for me as a gift.


----------



## UntilThen

Wreckgar7 said:


> All I can say in this is i really like the RFT EL11 as drivers paired with either TS5998 or GEC 6as7, although the only 6SN7 tubes i own are stock drivers and Sylvania 6SN7GTA.
> So i can definitely recommend the EL11, BUT all need to be aware that its on their own risk.
> On other matters, im interested in buying either Sylvania 6sn7wgt or 6sn7W. Can someone describe the difference in them? Maby even compare them to EL11?



I think you deserve an answer to your question which I haven't answered yesterday.

You have the Gec 6as7g? If so, you already have the best sounding power tubes for Elise.

Differences between Sylvania 6sn7wgt and 6sn7w is the extra gt. 

Seriously though.... 6sn7w is the epitome of clarity and details. I find it 'bright' ... well a bit. I also find it forward and confronting. It is an engaging tone that could work well at times and not work at other times. Depends on your mood really. 

6sn7wgt on the other hand, is the antithesis of 6sn7w. It is more relax, more warm and lush, a bit dry but a good dry wine. I like the bass. While not the prominent bass like the Ken Rad or RCA 6sn7gt vt231 or even the Fotons, these tubes does have a nice bass. Soundstage is also relatively wide. We have a few devotees of the 6sn7wgt here. Obviously these guys have lazy ears..... mine included at times. That's the truth.... I just want to be lazy at times and relax with a soothing driver.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 1, 2017)

Wreckgar7 said:


> I`d love to find a 6sn7 tube that matches the soundqualities of EL11, its just such a faboulous sound im getting with it



You won't. Similarly you won't find a 6sn7 that is close to C3g and ECC31 or FDD20 or Mazda 6N7g or EL3N. These are the forbidden fruits. Once you have tasted it, you will become aware that you are naked and you will loose Paradise forever. Sad isn't it? 

These pentodes as strapped triodes in Elise sounds wonderful. Now I wouldn't start the debate again about it's legal use in Elise because we already know that FA doesn't endorsed it. It's not in their official recommended tube list. These pentodes are as different to the 6sn7 triodes as apples are to pears.

Edit:- ECC31, FDD20 and Mazda 6n7g are not pentodes. The others are.

Which leads me to wonder.... what if Feliks Audio takes a long hard look at these pentodes and adapt them to be safely use in Elise and Euforia.... and even make official adapters for them.... now that would be something. Now I don't know what that will entail. It could be a major rework on the amp's circuitry.

I also happen to love the EF80 and EF86 pentodes that are officially endorsed as drivers in La Figaro 339. I think they sound amazing. So I have a fetish for these pentodes, just like many of you....

Now I'll summarise by concluding with 6sn7 and 6as7. Whilst I have not heard all other tube types, such as the 2A3, 300B .... I did have a short encounter with EL34 tubes used in the Blue Hawaii electrostatic tube amp. I have also heard some 6922, 6N23P small tubes...

Continuing from my thoughts on the paragrah preceding this, tubes cannot be judge on their own merits. They need to be evaluated in the amps that were designed for it. I'll link this article that talks about pentodes, triodes and 'fake' triodes.

As an example of tubes not being their best in amps not designed for them...

I tested C3g with C3g to 6sj7 adapters in La Figaro 339. Now the sparkle seems to be missing. In fact, the EF86 is clearly more revealing that the C3g in LF 339. This is a very clear example of why it is important that tubes are used in the amps they were designed for.

http://www.decware.com/paper16.htm

Finally I got to my summation. Having sample all the pentodes as trapped triodes in Elise and Euforia, I don't find the 6sn7 and 6as7 lacking compared to the pentodes. It's a different tone but one that, in my own ears and with the gear that I have, are the best sounding I've heard in Feliks Audio amps. It's the most pure and with the blackest background. However I am not you. Nor am I representative of all head-fi enthusiasts. Everyone can form their own opinions.

Of course, if it is strictly evaluated based on Feliks Audio approval, then without doubt, the 6sn7 and 6as7 are the ONLY tubes you need to consider.

Ha... such a long write up.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 1, 2017)

This article is an eye or ear opener. I'll link it again because everyone needs to read it. Pentodes, triodes or pseudo triodes? Which is the best? The author addresses that. He also show that a tube amp design has many considerations. It's not a mere matter of selecting which tubes to use. It is no fluke that the tubes chosen, also sound good on the amps they were designed for.

So here it is again.... read it.

http://www.decware.com/paper16.htm


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi  another R2R dac for you to consider.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/new-audio-gd-r2r-7-flagship-resistor-ladder-dac.853902/


----------



## UntilThen

I'm going to talk about Roon software now.

If you're like me and you have a selection of your own music folders on your hard disk and you subscribe to Tidal, this software is a godsend. With one interface, you can access both Tidal massive library and your puny or massive library, depending on whether you're Bill Gates.

You can trial the software for 14 days, after which you have to pay a yearly subscription or pay a life time license. Beware though. Once you try it, it's hard to give it up. 

I could not detect any difference in the sound quality but the interface is a beauty over Tidal's crappy interface. Albums artwork pops up, reminiscent of the vinyl's artwork. Big, bold and beautiful. If you have several computers, you can nominate one as the control and the others as remote controls. Similarly you can use your tablets and iPhone to act as remote control. Unbelievably convenient.

Lastly, many dedicated servers already work with Roon. One that I have in mind is the Auralic Aries. With this music server and using Roon, I can use the AES connection to Yggy. The best of all worlds. 

Many DACs work with Roon. Schiit is only one of them. 

Give it a try if this interest you.


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## hypnos1 (Jul 1, 2017)

Wreckgar7 said:


> All I can say in this is i really like the RFT EL11 as drivers paired with either TS5998 or GEC 6as7, although the only 6SN7 tubes i own are stock drivers and Sylvania 6SN7GTA.
> So i can definitely recommend the EL11, BUT all need to be aware that its on their own risk.
> On other matters, im interested in buying either Sylvania 6sn7wgt or 6sn7W. Can someone describe the difference in them? *Maby even compare them to EL11?*



Hi Wreckgar7. Just a quick(?!) note from me, as my own findings (with EL12 Spezial powers, mind you, and with ECC31 drivers in Euforia) are in more detail over at that thread. And from @UntilThen's description of the differences between the two Sylvanias, I would say my combination of tall bottle "Chrome Dome" Sylv 7N7 + NU Black glass 6SN7 falls somewhere between the two.

The first impression, compared to the EL11s, is of a much more dramatic and "fuller" presentation...in the same way as with the ECC31s. Every note is heard with great authority and extension, and is very impressive.
Unfortunately, for me - especially with my Beyer T1s, as opposed to the Sennheisers that smooth things out a bit more - after a short while, this delivery becomes *too* much for my particular taste, to the degree where I simply cannot continue listening alas!  I'm afraid I've become too addicted to the way the EL tubes separate out the various elements and give better positioning in space, especially when there's a mass of instruments and voices assailing your ears and brain lol! The T1s especially benefit greatly from this "untangling", with a most wonderful 3D, pinpoint accurate soundstage. There are other differences that I personally prefer, but this overall presentation is what I truly love about these 'forbidden' tubes....for better or worse!! ...

As UT says, it would indeed be fascinating to see how they perform in an amp properly configured for them, but once these Cuckoos (my words lol) "settle in" in their host's nest, they can indeed sound far better than any measurements or 'general' findings/recommendations would have us believe. As far as I'm concerned, we should listen to our *own *ears, and trust what we are hearing, rather than what others say we *should* be hearing! ...

Of course, the usual caveats must apply when trying these 'alternative' tubes...and hopefully pretty well _most_ aspects relating to the EL family have now been covered. When I send Lukasz the results of my temperature tests, I shall try and get a bit more information on just what  their unusual circuit readings might _possibly_ mean in the long term. But from his previous statements to me - and @pctazhp's suspicions - I doubt they will in fact be able to shed much more light on this without _very_ extensive further benchtesting, and for which I'm sure they simply don't have the time to spare...for a LONG while to come, alas!! My own 6 months or so of pretty well continuous, daily use of these tubes in Euforia alone is in fact probably far greater than any amount of testing they would ever be prepared to make! (And hopefully the next 6 months will prove just as trouble-free lol!! I am more than happy to be guinea pig #1! ).

HAPPY LISTENING, everyone...CJ


----------



## connieflyer

Wow that was a close one. UT and hypnos 1 came very close to the hidden head-fi sanctify section in brief 6 4 3 2 1 97601 subsection a through z Plus the Horizon event that may call for your ultimate sacrifice. I am so glad to see your conversation step back from the edge. I got notification from head-fi headquarters that the above hidden rule that you have secretly subscribe to without your knowledge of course was about to be put into effect which would have meant that had you not ceased and remained great friends all of your audio equipment would be confiscated for a period not to exceed one year and you would have to wear earplugs for that duration of time until you decided that friendship was more important than tube amps. Boy am I glad that's over. It's great to see the great ones back not that they were gone but it was not looking good. I would imagine that the Cornerstone was when PCTazhp decided to take a short vacation and give you some breathing room and get out from under his indomitable thumb. Well done gentlemen


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Wow that was a close one.
> 
> Well done gentlemen



Fear not cf...heat of (tube) passion, heat of passion, my also good friend! ... @UntilThen  and I - as with yourself, @pctazhp , @mordy , @Oskari  and others - go back too far to never be able to pull back from the brink lol!!...(mind you, Civil War could possibly break out in the Hugo 2 vs Yggdrasil standoff...or is there yet another to enter the ring?! Whatever, we shall survive once more - friendship conquers all, as UT says! ...CHEERS!...

ps. It would appear that fateful day is still a way off, however....I knew my dealer was being overoptimistic in believing mine (2nd batch) would be here by now...looks like I'll be lucky to get it in 2 to 3 weeks' time...grrrrrrrr!!! ...


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> It's great to see the great ones back not that they were gone but it was not looking good.



CF, I'm quite embarrassed at being referred to as great. Sure sometimes I feel I'm superman but at heart, I'm but a husband, a father, a once great cyclist, a once great orchid lover, a once car stereo fanatic, still a current tube roller and my love for tube amps is still unabated.

CJ is one I would consider my one true friend in Head-Fi. Remember I used to love all those tubes with a passion. They sounded holographic and larger than life. It is still a mystery to me how they can sound so good in Elise and Euforia. Herein is a dilemma for Feliks Audio. They don't know whether to take this as a compliment or tear their hairs out, that the heathens are rolling all manner of tubes contrary to their recommendations. For most manufacturers, this would be a good problem to have but for FA, this will be a problem when they are faced with claims for warranty repairs. 

Nope. Push comes to shaft, I won't continue to press my point. It dawn on me now that the readers here are mature enough to make up their own minds and take any calculated risks they so wish. It is a hobby after all, even if at times it can be a little wacky.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Civil War could possibly break out in the Hugo 2 vs Yggdrasil standoff



Hahaha, I think so. 

There are not many things in my possession that I would consider pride of ownership but Yggy is one of them. It is an accidental discovery for me. Remember I set out to buy the Gumby.

However this pride of owning Yggy is for a real reason. My Yggy has been powered on for 1 month 11 days now. Enough to kill a few baby seals and bring about a climate change and worry the greenies but hey when has 'audiofats' shy away from electricity cost when it means climbing the summit of the utmost fidelity? Yggy does sound very very very very good now. I'm astounded indeed. For the umteen times, I'll say that I'm amazed at how much a DAC can changed the whole sonic involvement of your musical sessions. Yggy did that for me and still continue to do so. I was hoping it wouldn't, so I can sell it but alas, it keeps improving. This retard DAC doesn't know when to stop. 

So..... CJ, I'm afraid there will be a Mexican standoff in the impending Yggdrasil vs Hugo 2 war... see I even have to name Yggdrasil first. That's how great my pride of ownership is. I'm betting all my piggy bank coins on it.


----------



## UntilThen

See a sample of the albums, Roon has catalogued for me personally. This is a mixture of what I have and a selection of what Tidal has. What Tidal has is now mine.... seamlessly. Quite amazing and so convenient.


----------



## UntilThen

I had these 2 tube amps for a solid week now to compare, analyse and dissect. They are so close in musical enjoyment, it's hard to pick a winner. Each time I'm listening to one, I would think that is the better sound. As soon as I switch to the other, I would say that is a better sound. There's similarities but they are clearly quite different in their own sonic signatures. They aren't wearing the most expensive tubes in the picture but the sound they generate is a tone to die for.

At this level, I find the Euforia and La Figaro eminently capable to keep up with Yggy and HD800. In fact, the synergy is incredible, disregarding price for a moment. There will be better sounding amps but it will kill the entire wild life population in Africa to attain that, to beat these.... I'm sure.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Unfortunately, for me - especially with my Beyer T1s, as opposed to the Sennheisers that smooth things out a bit more - after a short while, this delivery becomes *too* much for my particular taste, to the degree where I simply cannot continue listening alas!



^^ This. 

I've not felt this way about the Beyer T1 Gen, 1 until I had the HD800 for over a month. Everything you wrote there, I can relate to. This is why I like the Sennheiser more now. Sennheiser sound more spread out and 3D. T1 is more 'close in' and have an incisive cut to the tone. 

I'm still waiting on @Suuup to tell me which he prefers, seeing he now have my exact headphones and Elise.... and an Audio Gd dac? Or have you upgraded that too?


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> @angpsi  another R2R dac for you to consider.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/new-audio-gd-r2r-7-flagship-resistor-ladder-dac.853902/


Seriously good looking gear, that's for sure! Also, some gear mentioned does hit a button; e.g. some good local people have extremely favorable impressions of the Rocna; so to be mentioned in the same breath certainly spices things up! Finally, I can't get over Currawong's collection of gear, for one thing because I can't imagine not going crazy having to pick one set to listen to at a time! In fact, your collection seems to be climbing confidently up the same ladder - are you sure you're not Currawong?

Really looking forward to see the follow-up on this review, and then I have to figure out how to shell out $2500 to buy the gear!


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 1, 2017)

No I'm not Currawong because Currawong lives in Japan and I live in Australia. He is paid by the Japanese Emperor to do those reviews and all those gears he has are gifts whereas I'm paid by myself - hahaha - and unfortunately I have to buy them myself.

That Studio 6 tube amp that he has.... I would like to steal it for a month.

It is mentioned that Yggy has a drier tone and the new Audio Gd Masterchef has a more liquid tone. Without comparing, I wouldn't consider Yggy's tone drier ... in fact it is Wet wet wet when listening to Wet Wet Wet....

Omg... Roon sounds so much better than Youtube..... goodbye Youtube.


----------



## connieflyer

It is great to see the obvious friendship flowing, too much distention in the world now, we need to band together.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 1, 2017)

Local head-fier recently got himself a Sony MDR Z1R and going for the TA-ZH1ES. I'm growing envious with these fat wallets, for I've got many bikes to buy before I satisfy my own vice! I sometimes feel nostalgic about the time when I could afford throwing a full fee on audio gear because I had little worries to cater for others, but - thank God - I also feel grateful to be immeasurably happy making my daughter smile. And, you know what? The other day she was with me at the office and said "can we listen to that lady we were listening to the other day?"; she put on the headphones and spent the next hour drawing listening to Lianne La Havas on GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w (she even got upset when the music was over)!

Who knows, maybe next year she'll ask me for an Yggdrasil!


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> It is great to see the obvious friendship flowing, too much distention in the world now, we need to band together.


Gotta say, that's always been a large part of the appeal participating in these threads; and this one in particular has long been a favorite to many, including myself! Honestly, how do you think I ended up (up spending, actually) buying the Elise?


----------



## angpsi (Jul 1, 2017)

UntilThen said:


>



Corny or not, that was a landmark movie! Although when it comes to iconic British movies this one's my favorite!


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 1, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Local head-fier recently got himself a Sony MDR Z1R and going for the TA-ZH1ES. I'm growing envious with these fat wallets, for I've got many bikes to buy before I satisfy my own vice! I sometimes feel nostalgic about the time when I could afford throwing a full fee on audio gear because I had little worries to cater for others, but - thank God - I also feel grateful to be immeasurably happy making my daughter smile. And, you know what? The other day she was with me at the office and said "can we listen to that lady we were listening to the other day?"; she put on the headphones and spent the next hour drawing listening to Lianne La Havas on GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w (she even got upset when the music was over)!
> 
> Who knows, maybe next year she'll ask for an Yggdrasil!



Angelo, your posts contains so many facets of life and head-fi that I need to address it one at a time.

First of all, life has priorities. So you take care of your family first and I know you will do everything in your power to give your daughter, the best you can. That has given me more satisfaction than anything I ever have. Seeing my 2 children finish university and working now. Well worth all the head-fi in the world and also left me very very broke. Do you know how much it cost for a child to grow from babyhood to graduating from uni? You don't want to know and you don't want to count. Pretty as much as buying tubes. 

Secondly, when all that is done and you're at the golden age of your life, that is when you indulge in your head-fi passion. Like me and most of the seniors here now. We're ticking off our bucket list now and head-fi is one of them. Next we will try sky diving. If the parachute doesn't open, we won't have to spend all our savings.

Thirdly, I actually like the tone of the Sony MDR Z1R. I wish I could buy it.... Now I did not know about the Sony new amp - TA-ZH1ES. What a mouthful. Sony needs to learn how to name their product. Numbers in the name is useless. They don't stick in your mind. Now if they call that amp, 'BadAss', that will make an impact.

However regardless of the name, any amp that is photographed with the Utopia needs to land on my desk for an audition. Looks very classy this Sony badass.


----------



## angpsi

Btw, same guy who wrote "Four weddings (...)" also wrote this. It's really good, if you haven't seen it check it out!


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Angelo, your posts contains so many facets of life and head-fi that I need to address it one at a time.
> 
> First of all, life has priorities. So you take care of your family first and I know you will do everything in your power to give your daughter, the best you can. That has given me more satisfaction than anything I ever have. Seeing my 2 children finish university and working now. Well worth all the head-fi in the world and also left me very very broke. Do you know how much it cost for a child to grow from babyhood to graduating from uni? You don't want to know and you don't want to count. Pretty as much as buying tubes.
> 
> ...


Couple of weeks ago I was trying to figure out Sony numbers for a TV set. Here's an excellent guide on how to do it! http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/sony/1405370/sony-tv-model-numbers-every-bravia-tv-series-explained


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Btw, same guy who wrote "Four weddings (...)" also wrote this. It's really good, if you haven't seen it check it out!



Hmmm this movie looks good. It is always good to be young and falling in love for the first time... hopefully it's the last time too. See I'm old fashioned and uncomplicated.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm listening to this beautiful song by Mike Jagger - Angie. Incredible lyrics and voice.

http://i.imgur.com/Jq6itsL.png


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> I'm listening to this beautiful song by Mike Jagger - Angie. Incredible lyrics and voice.
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/Jq6itsL.png


Definitely a favorite. Used to listen to it all the time when I was a teenager. Classic rock was really big when I was 15.


----------



## UntilThen

Against my better judgement I'm going to roll in EL12N and EL12 in Euforia again, just to hear the tone again. I remind everyone here that I in no way recommend these tubes but this is purely to listen to it again after a very long spell away. In that time, I've been mainly on 6sn7 and 6as7. Also, I'm evaluating this Euforia setup with the La Figaro setup.


----------



## UntilThen

I've listen to several songs many times on these 2 amp now. Will be posting my impressions soon.


----------



## aqsw

angpsi said:


> Definitely a favorite. Used to listen to it all the time when I was a teenager. Classic rock was really big when I was 15.



Oh, To be young again. 

When I was young classic was Benny Goodman. LOL


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 1, 2017)

*My 45mins of fame with Euforia (EL12N and EL12) and La Figaro 339 (Mullard EF86 and RCA 6as7g) *

Now you would question how I can comment on anything with a 45 minutes evaluation. Don't forget, I've been listening to these 2 amps for months now and I have used EL12N and EL12 for months too on Elise. I am no stranger to these amps and tubes. This 45 mins is to consolidate my thoughts and to present an unbiased view. Why unbiased? Because I stand to gain nothing for promoting one over the other or one set of tubes over another. 

The songs chosen were narrowed down to just 3. I have return to the old favourites. Ones that were over-played at HiFi shows and are now banned. 
However one cannot deny that they are good for highlighting a system or a set of tubes. That is why they have been so often played at those snobbish shows.

Songs:-

Hotel California - Eagles from their Hell Freezes Over album
Keith Don't Go - Nils Lofgren
Rainy Night in Georgia - Randy Crawford

Hotel California :-
Euforia - stunning rendition of this song. It's the intro that I pay attention to. How accurate the bongo drums sound. How real the live audience sound. How realistic the guitars sound. It was magical. The bongo drums hits you in the chest. These EL tubes presents an enhanced tonality to the whole frequency spectrum. It's a wall of sound without loosing coherence. Instruments placements are still clearly visualised. Clarity and details - I find no fault with it. Layers and textures - duly noted. Soundstage widens - it's a fact. What do I think about the over all sound. Stunning. Feliks Audio will be making a mistake not to take note of these tubes. A pity they are so rare now. Which means no manufacturer would be insane enough to pursue them.

La Figaro 339 - you got to be kidding me. This amp sounds rock solid. It is playing ball with Euforia note for note. If anything, it has a wider, spread out sound. I.e the soundstage is wider. Bass is more focused and just as impactful. Somehow it feels more weighty. That thump in your chest from the bongo drums makes you smile rather than winced. Good effect? For sure. I thoroughly enjoyed the song with this amp. Difficult to choose between these 2 amps just on Hotel California alone.

Keith Don't Go :-
Magical guitar tune here. A classic tune. Both amps brought me to a level of ecstasy. It's money well spent on both amps and with the tubes they are wearing.

Rainy Night in Georgia :-
The sweet sweet voice of Randy Crawford is projected so well by both setup. It's a goose bump presentation.

Next I have to swap the tubes in Euforia back to Sylvania 6sn7w and Gec 6as7g and give it a go with these 3 songs.

Alright. I have painted a glowing picture of Euforia with EL12N and EL12. It's still a mystery to me how they sound so good in an amp design specifically for 6sn7 and 6as7. A real mystery. I tried to find fault with these tubes but I couldn't pick out any untoward sound. However, do know they are not recommended by Feliks Audio. Need I remind you and me time and time again? 

I'll be baaaaackk with a change of tubes in Euforia.




Ps... this audition done with Yggy's twin RCA outputs feeding both amps simultaneously and using HD800 solely. Music provided by none other than the fabulous ROON.

Pss... this time around, EL12N and EL12 sounded perfect with no noise .... this is the first time I heard those tubes with Yggy and HD800.


----------



## aqsw

Hey UT,

You have convinced me on the Euforia. Running stock.

But my Elise running El12N powers and El3N drivers sounds so good!,,

Love them both!,


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Hey UT,
> 
> You have convinced me on the Euforia. Running stock.
> 
> ...



Ok I need to put you in a straight jacket and lock you up for good.... so I can steal your Focal Elear. I want that headphone with that silver cable.


----------



## aqsw

Tubes still look better ( IMO) LOL


----------



## UntilThen

AQ, you need to vacuum your head-fi setup and use black polish before you take a photo. You know, make it nice and presentable?

That's a lot of tubes. Overdosed. 

Why is your volume knob so high? Did you lower your source volume? That's almost at 12 noon.


----------



## aqsw

You are correct on the dusting. My wife never comes downstairs. The main floor is immaculate, but I'm sort of on my own when it comes to the basement. 

As to the volume knob, that is where I listen when I've had a few. Very loud. 
Don't listen often at that volume.
The Space Tech dac source is that., a source only. No volume control.


----------



## aqsw (Jul 1, 2017)

I will get out the polish and take a better pic!


----------



## UntilThen

Alright I'm back with a change of tubes in Euforia. I've given her or is it a him? Well anyway the tubes are Sylvania 6sn7w and Gec 6as7g. My most badass 6sn7 and 6as7 both in price and sound.

Ok... I'm not convinced that the EL12N and EL12 are more superior in tone to these 6sn7 and 6as7. In fact, to my ears, the 6sn7 and 6as7 sounded more articulate, more cutting edge. Notes are finely chiselled and you get the quietest background. No noise. Zip. Nils Lofgren finger work on his guitar is amazing. You can hear him strumming away and he's singing with controlled breathing. A seasoned performer. He knows his stuff. As for Don Henley, he's beating those bongos with mean palms. He is beating them with a mental strength and with controlled precision. These tubes conveyed that to my ears.

The realism is uncanny. Sure it's not a wall of sound like the EL tubes but this is a different cake and it's got very nice icing on it. I'm mesmerised. If you're not happy with this tone, you have a problem.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I will get out the polish and take a better pic!



You do that and we will make you an honorary member.


----------



## aqsw

Fair enough UT.

If you remember a problem I used to have with my Elise with distortion, especially with the Mazdas and the TS 5998s.
We all thought maybe I had a lemon, but there were a few others that had the same problem.
Well, this doesn't happen with the El12Ns and EL3NS in my Elise anymore. I wish I would have kept my 5998s now, as I could
have used them in my Euforia.
Cheers


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Fair enough UT.
> 
> If you remember a problem I used to have with my Elise with distortion, especially with the Mazdas and the TS 5998s.
> We all thought maybe I had a lemon, but there were a few others that had the same problem.
> ...



A shame indeed with your Elise. Maybe it was tuned for EL12N and EL3N and not 6sn7 and 6as7 .... lol... hahaha .... ok cut it out UT... that's cruel. 

Indeed you should have kept the 5998 for Euforia. @pctazhp is so happy with them now, he's using it in the beach !


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> You are correct on the dusting. My wife never comes downstairs. The main floor is immaculate, but I'm sort of on my own when it comes to the basement.
> 
> As to the volume knob, that is where I listen when I've had a few. Very loud.
> Don't listen often at that volume.
> The Space Tech dac source is that., a source only. No volume control.



You should invite your wife to the basement. She will organised and keep it clean for you. 

As for listening at loud volume after a few drinks... you know what they say about 'Don't drink and drive'. Same applies to 'Don't drink and change tubes'. Sparks will fly and the whole neighbour will be in darkness.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm treating myself to an hour of my favourite album - Dire Straits Alchemy Life before the mandatory Sunday afternoon badminton.

http://i.imgur.com/Hxt8esb.png

With this amp and Sylvania 6sn7w and Gec 6as7g. These tubes are expensive and indulgent indeed but like fine wine, they needed to be tasted to be appreciated. I can't think of a better pairing of 6sn7 and 6as7 for Euforia or Elise.


----------



## aqsw

Listening to it now. You cannot go wrong with the Dire Straits. Sounds phenominal.


----------



## UntilThen

Seems like a fight going on over there.
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/n...sistor-ladder-dac.853902/page-2#post-13575585


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,

Did u mention Irene?



Sung and played by Huddie Leadbetter, master of 12 string guitar


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Seems like a fight going on over there.
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/n...sistor-ladder-dac.853902/page-2#post-13575585


Read some of the posts - from the emotional invective I gather that people disagree with each other. But honestly, I don't understand the lingo and the terms at all....Too many new terms and strange abbreviations - I hate learning curves.


----------



## Tim Le

Anyone have experience with the Lake People rs 06 dac? I have the choice between that and a Schiit bimby for around the same price. From what I've gathered in this thread, a lot of you are Schiit fans, but I'm tempted to get the rs 06 for such a good price.


----------



## UntilThen

No just to clarify I wasnt a Schiit fan until I audition Yggy and Rag at A2A.

... then I am converted.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 2, 2017)

Lake People? Arent they similar to Violectric?

Want to try something new? Check out Denafrips Ares.

Or Chord 2cute.


----------



## UntilThen

But why wouldnt you consider Bimby?


----------



## Tim Le

The lake people is very well regarded, and it has balanced outputs for my studio monitors. And I've heard mixed opinions on the multibit dacs for Schiit.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 2, 2017)

Tim Le said:


> The lake people is very well regarded, and it has balanced outputs for my studio monitors. And I've heard mixed opinions on the multibit dacs for Schiit.



Not wanting to be biased, I did a quick read up of as many reviews of this DAC as possible. I could not see what chip was used in any of the Lake People literature. Surprising. Then I found it here.
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/violectric-lake-people-dac-rs-06.806611/page-3#post-13233388

Seems to be getting very good reviews from the handful of reviews. Not many buyers obviously. Good or bad depends on how you look at it. Bad because if you buy this dac, you have no one to discuss it with. If on the other hand, you don't need to talk about it and do like the sound of it, then it's fine. 

I have NAD d1050 before Yggy which uses a Cirrus Logic chip. It sounded natural to me too. No piercing highs. Very smooth delivery and perhaps a touch warm, which in my opinion is better than a bright sounding dac. However after I got Yggy, I then realise how much less details the d1050 was conveying. It was quite apparent. Yggy also sounded more neutral and have an energetic tone compared to the relaxing tone of the d1050. I grew to like and love the Yggy. Believe me, your ears will decide in the long run which you like. This is why a quick listen at the shop or a meet, isn't always conclusive of how much you will really like about the DAC in the long run. Of course if you only have one dac, your ears will adapt and grow to love the one dac. What choice does your ears have?!!!

I don't believe in reading too much on the pros and cons of delta sigma vs R2R simply because I'm not technically inclined to understand it even if I did try to digest it. Neither am I adversely disinclined to DSD or hi-rez but at the same time, I could be very happy with just Red Book (16/44.1) standard if it's done right, like how my Yggy sounds. However buying blind could be an expensive exercise. A lot of people love Gumby and Yggy but that doesn't mean it's everyone's cup of tea. Some prefer the Metrum Pavane over Yggy as it has a warmer tone and more natural so to speak. However some of the extensive reviews puts it as a very close competition. Which speaks a lot for Yggy because the Pavane cost twice as much.

No I don't believe that Yggy is the best DAC in the whole universe but it is in my universe...... and I don't even wear a Schiit T-shirt. 

In fact when my wife ask me what DAC I bought, I dare not say it's a Schiit dac.... I say it's a Simon dac.


----------



## UntilThen

This guy's tube amps are more expensive than mine. I hate him but I don't mind swapping amps. 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/d...rst-impressions.609800/page-223#post-13546458


----------



## UntilThen

Continuing on my appraisal of Euforia and Figaro, I listen to this on Roon which basically taps into Tidal HiFi.

Now listening on HD800 via Figaro. Finally I am at peace with myself and my longings for a good sound. This is it. I have not swap over to Euforia yet but I expect great things there too.

http://i.imgur.com/TVNfKHD.png


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Did u mention Irene?
> 
> ...




Lol Mordy, I tried to listen to the whole song but I just couldn't finish it. I wanted to grab his mic and sing it myself.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Lol Mordy, I tried to listen to the whole song but I just couldn't finish it. I wanted to grab his mic and sing it myself.


Hi UT,
Let's see if you can sing along with this one: (If you don't have the patience for the whole song, start at 1:30)


----------



## mordy (Jul 3, 2017)

Somebody (TL?) asked me how the Fotons and the RCA tubes improved over time. Switched over my brain to analytical mode (headache territory?) and tried to summarize - so here is:

First of all, these lowly farmer tubes now have a great synergy. The proverbial veil has been lifted - the clarity improved a lot; great instrument separation and a wonderful, sweet mid bass, great timbre and a relaxed musical presentation. Don't know why I think  Cherry Vanilla Ice Cream...lol. If anything could be improved, maybe the treble is slightly cool sounding.

So if you want to experiment, go for a pair of the 6N8S Fotons for less than $6(!) shipped. (I have the expensive version for $8/pair).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6N8S-Aud...839567?hash=item4b19f208cf:g:zNIAAOSwEzxYVRiN

and try to find an inexpensive pair of RCA 6AS7G for $20-25 - there are a number of listings on eBay.

Very enjoyable, and you don't have to have bad conscience wearing them out like the super expensive GEC A1834/6AS7G.......

Oh, I almost forgot, the RCA have a very nice tube glow.....


----------



## UntilThen

Ok I will run the Fotons with RCA 6as7g when I get home.

I have run and like both tubes but not together. I think they are good value tubes with a lot of warm and lushness which is appealing in my system where the dac and headphone are neutral sounding.


----------



## Tim Le

mordy said:


> Somebody (TL?) asked me how the Fotons and the RCA tubes improved over time. Switched over my brain to analytical mode (headache territory?) and tried to summarize - so here is:
> 
> First of all, these lowly farmer tubes now have a great synergy. The proverbial veil has been lifted - the clarity improved a lot; great instrument separation and a wonderful, sweet mid bass, great timbre and a relaxed musical presentation. Don't know why I think  Cherry Vanilla Ice Cream...lol. If anything could be improved, maybe the treble is slightly cool sounding.
> 
> ...



Wish I got the $6 pair, I got suckered into the premium (read:not so premium) $10 pair.

Going to let this combo burn in for a day, I hope mine open up a bit too


----------



## UntilThen

I ran my Fotons with RCA 6as7g on Euforia last night and there some very light noise. I am sure it's from the Fotons. Quite disappointed as they were alright previously.


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> I ran my Fotons with RCA 6as7g on Euforia last night and there some very light noise. I am sure it's from the Fotons. Quite disappointed as they were alright previously.



Have you tried switching the Foton on the right side to left side and vice versa?


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> Have you tried switching the Foton on the right side to left side and vice versa?



Really? You think this will work? I can try..... if it doesn't work, I'll be on the next plane to where you live.


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> Really? You think this will work? I can try..... if it doesn't work, I'll be on the next plane to where you live.



If it doesn't, try switching the RCA power tubes with each other. My Elise will hum or stay quiet depending on which tube is on which side, I've had to label all of them R or L.

Haha I live in Washington state, it'd be just a tad bit cheaper to send you new Fotons.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh please... I never label my tubes left or right. They are supposed to work with any orientation. If it doesn't, I'll smash them to smithereens. 

This direction orientation reminds me of the japanese graveyards in Hawaii. They all face Japan.... that's what the tour guide told us.

Perhaps the Fotons need to face Russia?


----------



## UntilThen

Omg.... you are right. I switch them and now they are silent. What voodooism is this?


----------



## UntilThen

Oh man... Fotons and RCA 6as7g in Euforia with Yggy and HD800 is a match made in heaven. It is love at first sight. It's LCD2.2 bass with HD800 treble and Utopia midrange.

I don't have the Svetlana 6h13c with me. They are with my son. I wonder how the Fotons will sound with the Svetlana, making it a Russian team. 

Can you try it Tim and give us the low down?


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Oh man... Fotons and RCA 6as7g in Euforia with Yggy and HD800 is a match made in heaven. It is love at first sight. It's LCD2.2 bass with HD800 treble and Utopia midrange.
> 
> I don't have the Svetlana 6h13c with me. They are with my son. I wonder how the Fotons will sound with the Svetlana, making it a Russian team.
> 
> Can you try it Tim and give us the low down?


Hi UT,

_"Oh man... Fotons and RCA 6as7g in Euforia  is a match made in heaven."
_
Thanks UT, you made my day! Although I have the Svetlanas my intuition tells me that the RCAs will sound better with the Fotons. Listening to this combination now for a couple of days and I really don't miss the GECs - let them sit and appreciate in value lol!
I love the satisfying mid bass and sweet mid range; the treble is ever so slightly recessed, but with my old ears it doesn't matter. So now we have a contender for *budget set-up of the year: Foton 6N8S and RCA 6AS7G*.

Lukacz, this seller has 500 of them in lots of 50 for $100 ($2 each) with free shipping. But I don't know how they pair with the Svetlanas......


----------



## Tim Le

Sorry guys, I don't have my Svetlanas anymore either!

I agree with budget set-up of the year. I've had my eye on some TS round plates for a while, but it's hard to justify with the Fotons sounding so good for so little.


----------



## mordy

Tim Le said:


> Sorry guys, I don't have my Svetlanas anymore either!
> 
> I agree with budget set-up of the year. I've had my eye on some TS round plates for a while, but it's hard to justify with the Fotons sounding so good for so little.


Hi Tim Le,

I do have two pairs of the Svetlanas but I don't have the motivation yet to change to them - that's how much I enjoy the RCAs! Actually, I discovered that I have four pairs of the RCA 6AS7G tubes. Got a good buy on a lot of 12 6AS7 type tubes some time back - the star was a single Tung Sol 5998 and I forgot about the other tubes which included three pairs of the RCAs. (BTW, one is a Chinese 6N5PJ tube whose main attribute is the tube glow.)

And I want to add this - don't sell those unused tubes! My first pair of RCA tubes saw very limited use - never really liked them, and the three other pairs were just stored away. And now, with the Fotons the RCAs got catapulted into stardom! So you never know which tubes are going to have that magical synergy.

All right, maybe I will consider selling my some 100 variants of the 6AK5/5654/EF95/M8100/61JP/etc tubes .....Haven't found an adapter for 6AK5 to 6SN7,,,,


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> I love the satisfying mid bass and sweet mid range; the treble is ever so slightly recessed, but with my old ears it doesn't matter.



Well done Mordy, in describing this combination. I could listen to vocals the whole day with it and it would be very agreeable with my ears.

It's like using HD650 but the difference being I'm using HD800 with the Fotons 6N8c and RCA 6as7g and Yggy. So I get clarity and details, with warmness and lushness, and a very satisfying bass punch.

Now why did I write all this before buying another pair of RCA 6as7g?

Btw, the Fotons were given to me when I bought the Lorenz C3g from another forum member here. Which only goes to reinforce the adage that 'the best things in life are free'.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> I wonder how the Fotons will sound with the Svetlana, making it a Russian team.


Not that it matters, just FYI, the Fotons were made in Tashkent, Uzbekistan.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> Not that it matters, just FYI, the Fotons were made in Tashkent, Uzbekistan.



Wow that is news to me !!! Fotons are from Borat's country? No wonder they sound good !!!


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Wow that is news to me !!!


The really incredible part is that I received an email notification of UT's reply! (When was the last time that happened?)


----------



## UntilThen

Your getting a email notification is because they realise the importance of being UT.

So I suggest you watch this movie.


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> Not that it matters, just FYI, the Fotons were made in Tashkent, Uzbekistan.


Hi Oskari,

Correct, my tubes come from Uzbekistan. However, some of the other variants of the same tube came from the Soyuz Tube Factory in Novosibirsk, Russia.

So which factory is better? Tashkent or Novosibirsk? Blackburn or Mitcham? WIRAG or Eindhofen?


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> So which factory is better? Tashkent or Novosibirsk? Blackburn or Mitcham? WIRAG or Eindhofen?


Am I supposed to answer this question?

Ok. Brussels.

Just kidding.


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> Am I supposed to answer this question?
> 
> Ok. Brussels.
> 
> Just kidding.


Hi Oskari,

Not such a bad answer, all kidding aside. Brussels is obviously not in Russia, but it is the capital of Belgium. Turns out that Russian tube production was originally concentrated in the old capital Leningrad and in the newer capital Moscow.
The Svetlana company started in St Petersburg (Leningrad). Svetlana is a woman's name that means light. The other main company was MELZ (Moskovsky Elektrolampovy Zavod (Moscow Electric-Bulb Plant).

In 1941-1942, during the second world war, the Leningrad Svetlana factory and staff were moved to Novosibirsk, and at that time a Moscow factory was moved to Tashkent and re-established under the name Foton. Scientists from Leningrad were evacuated to Moscow and worked together with MELZ staff as well (and presumably evacuated to these far away cities).

Based on the above (I hope I got it right) the Novosibirsk tubes are associated with Svetlana, and the Tashkent tubes with MELZ, although it seems that engineers at both factories worked together. Apparently the name Foton was used for tubes from both of these factories.

Maybe somebody else can shed more light on this......


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 5, 2017)

Spot light is on cheap tubes today. Now you will be asking why UT is focusing on cheap tubes despite all his better power tubes? Well for one, I'm tired at the price sellers are charging for the better tubes. So I have to really see or hear for myself how the cheapies sound.

Euforia is running Fotons 6n8c and Rca 6as7g and Figaro is running Mullard EF86 and Rca 6080. These tubes ought to be cheap enough. If you need cheaper, you should give up tubes.

I'm listening to the Continuum album by John Mayer. http://i.imgur.com/49JRJ90.png This is a blues album and one of my favourite. I could listen to it over and over again and not get tired of it. There's something about this kind of blues that move me. I'm also using HD650 to give the blues a more blues feel. Blues lover will know what I mean. Here you want warm and lushness. Smokey lushness. Yet in the darkness and smokiness, you have clarity. Peer through the smoke and you'll see the light. Amazing.

I've been going back and forth on the amps as usual and both amps with their respective tube combinations sounds lovely. With such lovely bluesy tones and such cheap tubes, I can even retire the Gec 6as7g. There's something about the raw beauty of the RCAs that's is very appealing and it generates raw emotions. Next I've to try an all RCA combination. It's going to be an RCA night.

Trivia question. What does RCA stands for and in what year was it incorporated as a company and which company owns it? The last part is important because it's the first company I work with as a trainee programmer when I was 21.


----------



## whirlwind

I believe RCA stands for Radio Corporation of America.

That is a nice album by John Mayer, I like it also.  He can really play some nice blues when he puts his mind to it, he just does not always put his mind to it, lol.
I wish he would go back to strickly playing the blues, because he is wonderful at it when motivated.
I pretty much strickly only listen to the blues these days, about 90% of the time...it is the music that makes me feel good the most.


----------



## UntilThen

Correct RCA is what you said and GE owns it ... at least for a while.

This is not blues but when the Slave song came on Roon, I was shocked ..... still using those farmers tubes but the euphony is real. Really liking these cheap tubes now.


----------



## UntilThen

I reread absolute sound's review of Yggdrasil again. I was amazed at how Robert Harley described it exactly as how I hear Yggy. He pick the right words. That is what I hear. I still cannot believe the level of details this dac churns out..... in a most natural way. I still get startled now and then when listening to a song and hearing new sound that I've not heard before. I've since forgiven Yggy for making me spend so much on a dac.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/schiit-audio-yggdrasil-dac/


----------



## pctazhp

Since I’ve been properly accused of being a Schiit fanBOY, here is my take. As UT said, in my audiophile days I owned Mike Moffat’s Theta 5. It was fed by his heavily modified Pioneer Laserdisk player for CDs (“Carmen” as I recall), connected to Theta 5 with AES/EBU. It was the beginning of my transition from vinyl to digital. Before that digital didn’t favorably compare to vinyl for me. And, as UT pointed out, Mike’s original Theta DAC was the first commercially available stand-alone DAC.

So when I became serious about high end headphones, and given my budget at the time, Bimby was a natural choice for me. I haven’t heard any other Schiit multibit DACs and cannot comment on them. For me, and for now, Bimby is my “only” DAC, and I love it.

Regardless of price point or budget, at this time I would only choose a Schiit multibit DAC. It is virtually impossible to audition most DACs, particularly those made in China. Schiit offers a 15-day return right. I doubt anyone rivals Mike Moffat in knowledge and experience with DACs. Schiit is a solid company and I would have no concern about warranty work. And except for Mimby, all Schiit multibit DACs are modular and upgradeable if future Schiit technology is offered.  Regardless of which Schiit multibit DAC one considers, you can find numerous glowing reports from satisfied owners and almost no negative comments.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,

In the August issue of Stereophile Magazine there is a review of the JPS Lab's Abyss AB-1266 Phi headphones. The reviewer compares it to the Audeze LCD-X, HiFiMan HE-1000 V2, Sony MDR-Z1R, Stax SR-009 and Focal Utopia, which all represent the ultimate levels in headphones.
And the verdict is that the Abyss is the "most tru-to-life-sounding of all headphones", and it took the sound further than the Staxes and Focals.
Something to explore?


----------



## connieflyer

I just watched the YouTube video on those phones for $5,500 they better be top-of-the-line and that's comparing it using a Cavelli Liquid Gold amplifier which is $6,500 so once you start hitting in that League that thing better kiss you in the morning and draw your coffee!


----------



## Tim Le

connieflyer said:


> I just watched the YouTube video on those phones for $5,500 they better be top-of-the-line and that's comparing it using a Cavelli Liquid Gold amplifier which is $6,500 so once you start hitting in that League that thing better kiss you in the morning and draw your coffee!



Perhaps it will do your taxes and walk the dogs for you if you pair it with the right DAC and amp


----------



## connieflyer

At those prices it better do more than that. There is a limit to how much money you can throw at something and get a huge return as far as enjoyment is. Watching the YouTube video he had tried those Abyss phones with other more mundane AKA average amplifiers and it wasn't until he went to the $6,500 amp that those phones really shown. I will keep my Sennheiser 800 and enjoy them quite enough


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Since I’ve been properly accused of being a Schiit fanBOY, here is my take. As UT  said



Nobody accused you of being a fanboy, young man 

You are !

....but then I admire a man or boy or creature who has the balls to stand up for what he likes. 

Steve Jobs believe in the iPhone and when he walks on stage to present it to the world, the people's jaws drop and a new fan base is created. Never again in the history of gadgets, will you see people queuing around the block just to get the iPhone on launch day. Not just once but every new model and that went on for a few years. Incredible !

I need to learn how to market my pajamas like Steve market his iPhone. Then it will sell like Looney Tunes.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> In the August issue of Stereophile Magazine there is a review of the JPS Lab's Abyss AB-1266 Phi headphones. The reviewer compares it to the Audeze LCD-X, HiFiMan HE-1000 V2, Sony MDR-Z1R, Stax SR-009 and Focal Utopia, which all represent the ultimate levels in headphones.
> And the verdict is that the Abyss is the "most tru-to-life-sounding of all headphones", and it took the sound further than the Staxes and Focals.
> Something to explore?



Mordy, it all depends on who you ask. Mr Joe Blow might say that the Abyss is the most tru to life sounding of all headphones but Tyll Hansen says that the Focal Utopia is the King of all headphone and I say that the Focal Utopia is a small step for man but a giant leap for mankind.... yeah it was me who first walk on the moon.


----------



## pctazhp

Boy or man, at least I'm not woman and you don't have to hear me roar.. I'll buy 1st 50 of your PJs - extra, extra, extra large please. And gold color so they will last 10,000 hours.


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> Perhaps it will do your taxes and walk the dogs for you if you pair it with the right DAC and amp



Mr Tim, no cynicism please. My Yggy is a fridge because it's so cool to the touch. It's like a multi function printer because it can feed 3 amps simultaneously. It's like a microwave because I use Yggy as much as I use my microwave every day. It's more than my TV because I've stopped watching my 55" Samsung LED 3D TV ever since this head butt system came into my life. The study is now my lounge and the lounge is now my store room..... sob.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Boy or man, at least I'm not woman and you don't have to hear me roar.. I'll buy 1st 50 of your PJs - extra, extra, extra large please. And gold color so they will last 10,000 hours.



Sorry no online orders. You need to queue up like everyone else and the queue stretches from Madison Ave to Hollywood Boulevard the last I heard..... by the time you get to the store entrance, you'll be lucky if there's a g string left for you.

Dammm... pct I miss you. When you were gone, my writings were less creative but now see how my thoughts fly !!!!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> At those prices it better do more than that.



That's what I told myself before buying the Gec 6as7g.... now they are more precious than the golden eggs from my most prize chicken. I've insured it for the princely sum of 1 million dollars.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Dammm... pct I miss you. When you were gone, my writings were less creative but now see how my thoughts fly !!!!!!!



Just consider me the wind beneath your wings


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Just consider me the wind beneath your wings



No wonder I'm like this cloud.

 

...but hang on a second.... WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE ????


----------



## angpsi

Notifications are all screwed in this new system! I keep receiving notifications for the Euforia thread but I own an Elise! And I'm missing all the great action that's been going on here since Monday!


----------



## pctazhp

I'm The Sheik Of Araby


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Notifications are all screwed in this new system! I keep receiving notifications for the Euforia thread but I own an Elise! And I'm missing all the great action that's been going on here since Monday!



Blink and you will miss the tirades .... from Arizonia, New York and Michigan... and London .... and Finland.... and Greece..... anywhere else? Brazil? Russia? Uzbekistan? !!!! 

I've been approached by several well known publishers to turn this thread and the other Euforia thread and the thread before this thread and the thread that was locked before that thread..... into a novel.

It's gonna be the best selling novel of all time..... even better than 'Far From A Madding Crowd' ..... how many of you have read this book? - Thomas Hardy's fourth novel.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 5, 2017)

Spending another day staying up late in the office, as I'll probably spend most of my summer. Almost off to bed, but as I'm listening to Gonzalo Rubalcaba playing with Charlie Haden and Jack DeJonette I felt like turning off the lights. Can't imagine why I hadn't done this before—probably because it's the obvious thing to do with our 'glorified light candles'. Nevertheless the beautiful rendering of music has constantly made me forget about this wonderful quality of our amps! Here's how the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w sound (errrr..., look!) in the dark. Have a very good night, and see you all tomorrow...


----------



## UntilThen

This thread is locked because people are talking about WW2 instead of Schiit happens....

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/s...lds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-1441


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Here's how the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w sound



If you have this setup, you have arrived at the summit. It's quite a climb but well worth it.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> If you have this setup, you have arrived at the summit. It's quite a climb but well worth it.


_Sounds_ like it!


----------



## UntilThen

So I went to sleep at 8:30pm and got up at 10:30pm and started listening to Vladimir Horowitz playlist on Tidal through Roon of course....

with Euforia running those NU 6sn7gt vt231 black glass and Rca 6as7g.

At the same time, reading reviews of Schiit Ragnarok and fantasising about it. Thoughts shifted to Violectric v281 too but nah.... if I were to switch to ss amp, it would be the Ragnarok. I remember it sounded so good with Yggy at A2A.

Then I started to read Mike's blog.... this guys is really old. I mean really, really old but the stories.... they come out thick and thin, better than my stories.... incredible. Got me quite interested.... I think I will carry on reading while still listening to the incredible piano playing of Horowitz. 

Who is this Horowitz? I might just switch to classical because of him and piano just sound so good on the system I have right now. I feel lucky..... so so lucky.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> So I went to sleep at 8:30pm and got up at 10:30pm and started listening to Vladimir Horowitz playlist on Tidal through Roon of course....
> 
> with Euforia running those NU 6sn7gt vt231 black glass and Rca 6as7g.
> 
> ...



So have you been following the gorilla discussion????

And from the Yggdrasil thread it appears you now need to add JPLAY on to Roon.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> And from the Yggdrasil thread it appears you now need to add JPLAY on to Roon.



Uhhhh noooo .... 

_JPLAYstreamer’s playback is gapless and Kazoo (on an iPhone 6S Plus) proved responsive enough. One can even browse by folder – nice._ *However, next to Roon, its UI looks positively archaic: no meta-data layer, no radio, no pulling up long forgotten favourites. Jumping between connected artists is done in one’s head, not the app.*

Roon sounded very good to me. So much so, I've not bothered to pull out my iMac 27" even though I have Audirvana Plus 3 on it. Roon does everything for me, including operating a drone over your neighbour's house.... 

I feel quite guilty sometimes. I have too many good sounding software players on PC and Mac but Roon is so seamless, I can just get on with listening with music instead of learning how to use it..... because learning how to use it, is as easy as pressing the button to fire the missile.


----------



## pctazhp

I guess you didn't read the entire article. You can use Roon as your interface and JPLAY essentially as the USB driver. I don't really care as I'm satisfied with plain old Tidal. Just trying to spend more of your money.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm very happy with my current* free* USB driver from Schiit and I don't need no JPLAY or any KinkyPLAY.

The truth is I cannot afford to spend even $1 more..... my bank manager just called to say that if I do spend even $1 more, he will attempt harakiri on a water melon.


----------



## mordy (Jul 6, 2017)

Hi pct,

Here is another version of the Sheik of Araby - New Orleans Revival at it's best:



Just found a boogie woogie version - did not know that it could be played this way lol:


----------



## UntilThen

The Tour De France has just started and already 2 of my favourite sprinters are out of the race for different reasons. This is how fast they can go.


----------



## pctazhp

It's all so haughty totty. Why can they just call it the Tour of France???


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 6, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> It's all so haughty totty. Why can they just call it the Tour of France???



Because this is not your normal tour of France that you take your girlfriend or wife. This is the mother of all cycling race. The winner of it will be knighted by the Queen... that is if you're a Briton. If you are an Australian, they award you with Australian of the Year award. If you are an American, they test you to see if you cheated and if you did, I'm so sorry for you....

If you're French, you're bigger than Charles De Gaulle ..... now you know why it's has 'DE' instead 'of'.

Please Pct, do I have to explain everything to you? You're lawyer extraordinary. You are supposed to know everything.


----------



## Tim Le

So I was rocking the budget Fotons and RCA all week. Today, my Lake People RS 06 came in, so I plugged in my TS 5998 and Ken-Rads again. Wow.

I'm not feeling sick, but maybe it's time to use my sick days


----------



## UntilThen

Congrats Tim. I actually think that the RS06 will sound very good with your setup. However, Lake People should be more imaginative and call it something else instead of RS06. 

From now on, you just call it Hamburg. 

I'm tempted to call in a sickie too but I'm a very good worker and I don't believe in that..... I believe in capitalism.


----------



## UntilThen

By the way Tim, pictures please... of the Lake Side RS06 with your Elise and HD650. This is a setup to be proud of, I reckon.


----------



## Tim Le

You mean the Hamburg, Elise, and Sonorous VI? By far the most eye catching combo in my room.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Because this is not your normal tour of France that you take your girlfriend or wife. This is the mother of all cycling race. The winner of it will be knighted by the Queen... that is if you're a Briton. If you are an Australian, they award you with Australian of the Year award. If you are an American, they test you to see if you cheated and if you did, I'm so sorry for you....
> 
> If you're French, you're bigger than Charles De Gaulle ..... now you know why it's has 'DE' instead 'of'.
> 
> Please Pct, do I have to explain everything to you? You're lawyer extraordinary. You are supposed to know everything.



Thank you kindly for the explanation. I went to public school in Phoenix so I don't know nothing much about things like that.

I'm still waiting to get my Fotons. I've cleared a place in my living room where I will set them up for day naps.


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> You mean the Hamburg, Elise, and Sonorous VI? By far the most eye catching combo in my room.



This is so    *b e a u t i f u l*   .   I forgot you have a Sonorous VI and I have no idea how that sound.

Hey, Hamburg's lights are matching Elise's.


----------



## UntilThen

It's Friday night and the start of my weekend. It's winter and it's cold. So listening to music in my study with a small heater on and a tube amp on, keeps me warm and very happy.

The tone reaching my ears is heavenly. I often wonder if it will get any better. My thought turn to my tube amps, specifically Euforia. It's gorgeous sounding with Yggy and HD800. Then I thought about the Ragnarok that I heard at A2A.... I cannot forget what I heard that day. I can't believe that the HD800 sounded so good on an ss amp. It's not harsh but it is very detailed and very clear. You can hear every note and every nuance. It's infectious and certainly a very good pairing with HD800.

So yeah I'm staring at this amp again... I wouldn't be surprised if I buy it before the end of the year. Just imagine being able to run my setup in full balanced mode... I've only heard a balanced setup once and that was at the 2016 Sydney meet, on an Audio Gd setup. It was great. Truly great. I don't really care that it was balance but that it sounded great with both hd800 and hd800s.

This is the Audio Gd setup I heard hd800 and hd800s with.

 

This is the Schiit setup I'm thinking of completing...
 

This hobby has bitten hard.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 7, 2017)

The dice is rolled. There will be 'the' amp in my barn by Christmas of 2017.

Question is ... will it be the blue amp or the red amp or the Schiit amp.

.... or even this custom made.... http://www.diybuy.net/thread-950335-1-1.html

Decisions, decisions..... won't you help me decide?


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> The dice is rolled. There will be 'the' amp in my barn by Christmas of 2017.
> 
> Question is ... will it be the blue amp or the red amp or the Schiit amp.
> 
> ...



I haven't heard any of them, and have no idea what the red amp is, or even the DIY amp, so I can't be of any help. I assume it's not the Schiit amp, because you could have that long before Christmas.

I guess my main question is what is lacking in the F-A amps that leads you to want a new amp so shortly after you bought Euforia and got 2017 version of Elise back? Just as you have educated me on everything I'm missing with Bimby I need to know why I can no longer be happy with Euforia.

And also, do you plan to attend your banker's funeral?


----------



## mordy

pctazhp said:


> I haven't heard any of them, and have no idea what the red amp is, or even the DIY amp, so I can't be of any help. I assume it's not the Schiit amp, because you could have that long before Christmas.
> 
> I guess my main question is what is lacking in the F-A amps that leads you to want a new amp so shortly after you bought Euforia and got 2017 version of Elise back? Just as you have educated me on everything I'm missing with Bimby I need to know why I can no longer be happy with Euforia.
> 
> And also, do you plan to attend your banker's funeral?


Hi UT,

You forgot the purple one:


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 7, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> I haven't heard any of them, and have no idea what the red amp is, or even the DIY amp, so I can't be of any help. I assume it's not the Schiit amp, because you could have that long before Christmas.
> 
> I guess my main question is what is lacking in the F-A amps that leads you to want a new amp so shortly after you bought Euforia and got 2017 version of Elise back? Just as you have educated me on everything I'm missing with Bimby I need to know why I can no longer be happy with Euforia.
> 
> And also, do you plan to attend your banker's funeral?



Anything beyond this point is a slippery slope but as any audiofat will tell you, it ain't over till the fat lady sings.... and I haven't heard the fat lady sing yet....

Blue amp - DNA Stratus (one year wait)

Red amp - is Glenn's EL3N amp (6 months wait maybe)

Schiit amp - Ragnarok

The last is not a DIY amp - it's a special upgraded La Figaro 339. It won't be cheap.

Finally my banker has become a head-fi junkie so he will approve anything that I want to buy.

Lastly (as if finally is not enough) your quesion... 'What is lacking in the F-A amps that leads me to want a new amp so shortly after I bought them?'

The answer is 'NOTHING'.

Let me explain... When I bought my 1st dac/amp - the O2/ODAC, I love it with hd650. There was nothing lacking... until I bought the DV336se. There was nothing lacking with that too until I bought Elise. There was CERTAINLY NOTHING LACKING WITH ELISE too until I bought Euforia. Round about that time, La Figaro 339 came along too and that was a nice inclusion too. Not to mention, I also have the Aune T1, which at one time, was a marvel to me.

So .... there are different segments of audio enthusiasts. Those who buy a setup and are happy with it and will not upgrade anymore. Bless them. They did the right thing. There are also others, who will upgrade as the years go by because there won't be many more years to go by before nuclear consumes us all. Bless this group too because seeking a superb sound is the last satisfying hobby on this planet earth.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> You forgot the purple one:



I'll reserved Blue Hawaii and Stax headphones till I'm 65...... scary when that's only 4 years away.

Please...... don't tell me about purple.... I am painting my deck railings today and it's green !!!


----------



## UntilThen

When I am 70, I want this..... this is going to hurt at AUD$5649.


----------



## Rossliew

Just get a Glenn 300B or 45 tube amp lol


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 7, 2017)

Rossliew said:


> Just get a Glenn 300B or 45 tube amp lol



Yeah right.... and how much is that? About 6 grand right?

That will be my 80th present.... I don't know if I will get there......

OMG I'm past the 8,000 posts. Moderator, do I get a prize or a special title?


----------



## pctazhp

My approach to audio:


----------



## Rossliew

Hahahahaha...300B amp is waaay cheaper than the BHSE , Matt! U can get it when your 64


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Hahahahaha...300B amp is waaay cheaper than the BHSE , Matt! U can get it when your 64



Reaaaally ???? !!!! 

64 with 300B ? You make my day !!!

Wait..... how much does a pair of 300B cost?


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> My approach to audio:



Com'on Law Ear, you have to be more adventurous ... let 'love many' be your motto.


----------



## UntilThen

@Rossliew  you are as bad as @attmci .

These 300B cost US$1895.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> Reaaaally ???? !!!!
> 
> 64 with 300B ? You make my day !!!
> 
> Wait..... how much does a pair of 300B cost?



Just don't get the takasukis hahahha


----------



## Rossliew

I would get them if I had the amp. As what others in our hobby usually say - you have to go all the way! Hahahha


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> I would get them if I had the amp. As what others in our hobby usually say - you have to go all the way! Hahahha



I think you could be dangerous having as a friend... 

I better stick close to the Law Ear. He will keep my wallet safe.


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Just don't get the takasukis hahahha



OMG..... 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-orde...358242?hash=item3ae99b1622:g:F1sAAOSw1BlZW2aH


----------



## UntilThen

Hello? I am supposed to be painting the deck. Why am I still chatting here....


----------



## pctazhp

If I weren't more adventuresome I'd still be listening to my HD598 on my Bravo Audio Ocean amp. I got to where I am today by originally taking a leap of faith on Elise and it worked out for me. It gave me enough faith in F-A and H1's description of the advances F-A had made with Euforia that again I took a leap of faith, but I think based on solid reasoning. And I'm happy with the way that turned out. I chose both F-A amps and my Schiit DAC because I believe both companies offer incredible value from people who seem to know what they are doing. I don't believe that because a particular audio component is more expensive necessarily means it is better, and right now I just personally am not interested in finding out if the more expensive amps are really better. I read posts from people who have had to stretch to buy an F-A amp, and most seem thrilled.

Traditionally, F-A threads focused on F-A amps and tube rolling for those amps. I think they helped F-A sales and I'm glad for that. But things change whether I like it or not.

Anyway, I'm going to stick with my motto "All Things in Moderation" and this song:


----------



## UntilThen

There's nothing traditional about me. More than anyone, besides H1, I've given more praise to Elise and Euforia than anyone else. I do not even want to think that I have in anyway contribute to more sales for FA because that's not my job. I don't care if I am call a fanboy because that's what I am. I still sing the praises of these FA amps because they sound incredible at this price and even a bit beyond. They will get my recommendation always.

However, as we all know, this is like our drinking hole for a good many. This is where we congregate and talk about our hobby and our passion. There's nothing wrong about that. If there is, please let me know because I will start a new thread call 'Me, My Head-Fi setup and Irene'.


----------



## pctazhp

Oh, that reminds me of another of my mottos: "Live and Let Live". And I'm also a Capitalist. Free markets, free flow of ideas and free, uncensored HeadFi threads   All is cool from where I sit. Well, that's not exactly true. We hit 115 F today


----------



## pctazhp (Jul 7, 2017)

And UT, if you think I'm upset with you, you are right. But not for any reason you might guess. I was really hurt that you didn't laugh at my joke about clearing a place in my living room to set up the Fotons when they arrive for day naps !!!!

Edit:  Fotons - Futons - get it????


----------



## UntilThen

I think Capitalist is cool. I will have what you don't have. Whereas communist means we all have the same tube amp and the same tube !!! How boring !!!

Wait till you hear more of my free ideas and free speech. Btw they are not free. I get paid $1 for every post I make. So that's $8027 so far....


----------



## attmci

UntilThen said:


> @Rossliew  you are as bad as @attmci .
> 
> These 300B cost US$1895.



!@$#%$@#^#$^ WE 300B and 421A are great great great tubes.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> OMG.....
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-orde...358242?hash=item3ae99b1622:g:F1sAAOSw1BlZW2aH


Lovely little tubes, aren't they ? hahahahha

Btw, can you share some impressions of the Yggy? a lot of people seem to like it....


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Btw, can you share some impressions of the Yggy? a lot of people seem to like it....



OMG, if I even say Yggy one more time. @Oskari  will fire a nuke at me. He has Yggy coming out of his ears now.


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> !@$#%$@#^#$^ WE 300B and 421A are great great great tubes.



Run ! Attila the Hun is awake.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> OMG, if I even say Yggy one more time. @Oskari  will fire a nuke at me. He has Yggy coming out of his ears now.



Hahahahah....well, i'll take this offline then LOL


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> And UT, if you think I'm upset with you, you are right. But not for any reason you might guess. I was really hurt that you didn't laugh at my joke about clearing a place in my living room to set up the Fotons when they arrive for day naps !!!!
> 
> Edit:  Fotons - Futons - get it????



Believe me Pct, you have no idea how much I love you. Please don't tell your wife that. I'll coming next year to visit you and I'll be sleeping on the Futons.


----------



## pctazhp

OK. I'm a calm, rational guy, but I can only be pushed so far. I just bought Connor from @connieflyer for $87,000. Now I have an unobtainian dog that no one here or any place has. So you can all


----------



## Rossliew

Nice vid


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> OK. I'm a calm, rational guy, but I can only be pushed so far. *I just bought Connor* from @connieflyer for $87,000. Now I have an unobtainian dog that no one here or any place has. So you can all



No you didn't....

BECAUSE I have just sold off my precious upgraded unicorn Elise while I was chatting here about a million and one things.... how did I manage to do all that? Is it a gift or what? 

Folks please extend a very warm welcome to @Rossliew  who has bought my Elise and half of my tubes. He is an Elise member now. If you don't welcome him, you will be staring at the barrel of my fist and 500 of my hate posts. 

Oh my ..... I haven't started painting my deck and it's 12 noon.......


----------



## Rossliew

Hhahahaha...thanks for the warm welcome, Mr. @UntilThen . Shall reserve any comments until the secret shipment arrives...shhh..not a word to the missus, please


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> OMG, if I even say Yggy one more time. @Oskari  will fire a nuke at me. He has Yggy coming out of his ears now.


So true! Now paint the deck finally!


----------



## UntilThen

Ross, next I'll sell you Yggy. 

Believe me, this DAC is a game changer. It will lift your setup performance by 50% guaranteed. My Yggy is 1 month and 18 days online now and it's starting to flash it's rainbow hues. The sound is more than natural. It's more organic than fresh farm eggs. It's more pure than vegetarian. 

Seriously... let me paint my deck first than I will describe Yggy all over again.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> Ross, next I'll sell you Yggy.
> 
> Believe me, this DAC is a game changer. It will lift your setup performance by 50% guaranteed. My Yggy is 1 month and 18 days online now and it's starting to flash it's rainbow hues. The sound is more than natural. It's more organic than fresh farm eggs. It's more pure than vegetarian.
> 
> Seriously... let me paint my deck first than I will describe Yggy all over again.




Ouch...tempting, very, very tempting..go paint that deck then we shall talk again hahahahaha


----------



## UntilThen

Alright I'll go paint the deck now.... finally..... and I will have to decide what amp I will buy now that I have sold off Elise. 

Sob, I cannot believe I just sold off my brand new Elise that is closer to Euforia than Elise.


----------



## Rossliew

Oh please.....just get on with the deck painting! And order your Rag plus Stratus


----------



## pctazhp

Rossliew said:


> Ouch...tempting, very, very tempting..go paint that deck then we shall talk again hahahahaha



Welcome))) You've joined a cult - I mean a very special group. You'll love Elise. UT is seldom sober so it may take him a while to get it shipped off to you. But the wait is worth it. Bright sunshine is on its way to you.



Wish everyone a good weekend )))


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Oh please.....just get on with the deck painting! And order your Rag plus Stratus



Wow very very tempting getting those 2 amps together but my ship will sink...

Actually I am now thinking Rag for the following reasons

1. I have not had a TOTL ss amp ... that sounds a bit like a tube amp.

2. I can walk into the shop tomorrow and walk out with it.

3. It is matching with Yggdrasil.

4. Finally I can hear for myself what a balanced setup sounds like.

5. I can buy HE6 or any difficult to drive planars or even totl iems.

6. I can buy a pair of KEF LS50 later.... glee.

7. If one day, tubes disappeared from the face of the earth, I can still listen to music.

8. I can verify whether Stereophile, CNET, Musicphile, Dubstep Girl are talking nonsense or the truth about Ragnarok.


----------



## Rossliew

He6? I'd suggest a vintage receiver/amp for that..never heard the 6 sound so good as it did out of a pioneer sx1280


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> He6? I'd suggest a vintage receiver/amp for that..never heard the 6 sound so good as it did out of a pioneer sx1280



Believe me, you don't need speaker tabs with Rag on HE6. It will sing with or without speakers tabs. Rag is 60 watts into 8 ohms and 100 watts into 4 ohms for speakers. It will drive a pair of Magnepan .7 flat panel speakers unless Steve is smoking blue grass. Most agree it will drive KEF LS50 to perfection. What is a headphone HE6 to Rag?

I was at Addicted To Audio to audition the HD800 and Gumby. When I entered the shop, I was told that Gumby is sold out and have no ETA of when the next batch will arrive. However they do have Yggy and Rag there on the showroom floor, ready for listening. Next to it was the Woo Audio Wa22. On top of Rag was the Aurealic Ares. Like an excited child I gestured and pointed to Yggy to be connected to Wa22 and have the HD800 plug in pronto! 

Pronto, the salesman did connect the RCA cable from Yggy to Wa22 and he flick the switch and I heard POP. There goes my Wa22. Fate has it that I won't even hear it, much less consider to buy it.

However the next best thing happened next. Yggy was hooked up to Rag and HD800 was plugged in it. I thought to myself, this isn't going to sound good. I mean HD800 out of a ss amp? Come on.... that will sound screeching, sharp, a pain in the ass to the ears. Nevertheless, I was determined to hear 'something' that day so I put HD800 on my head and change the song to 'Money For Nothing' by Dire Straits.

That moment changed my perception of Ragnarok and Yggdrasil completely. Aurealic Ares wasn't even hooked up. A Mac laptop acted as source with a soup kitchen USB cable but man....... the sound that hit my ears, had my feet tapping and my head bobbing. A few seconds later, my shoulders started movin' .... next my hips. You don't want to know what happen to my butt.

That is my formal introduction to Yggy and Rggy.


----------



## Oskari

The DECK. Did you paint it?


----------



## UntilThen

In trying to describe Yggy to you, I need to describe my other system chain that I'm using right now. I have La Figaro 339 on duty with Mullard EF86 and Cetron 7236 using HD650 modified as headphone. I am using Roon accessing Tidal HiFi and listening to 'Smoke On the Water' by Deep Purple. 

I have never seen water so clear in all of my life and it had smoke on it. I could switch the DAC back to my old NAD d1050 but that will drop euphoria by 50% at least.... With Yggy in command, like a maestro, Smoke begin to rise from the water as Richie Blackmore does his guitar magic and John Lord fingers dance on the Hammond C3 organ. When Iain Gillian vocals exploded with...

We all came out to Montreux, on the Lake Geneva shoreline
To make records with a mobile, we didn't have much time

A new experience is born..... and Yggy is responsible for it.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> The DECK. Did you paint it?



Feck the deck.... it looked like it was going to rain.... black clouds overhead. Bad day for painting and good day for smoke on the water. Yggy come yggy go and soon there will be Rggy too unless you convince me of another amp otherwise.

Com'on Oskari, I need some good advice on what amp next. Problem is both Euforia and Figaro are both sounding so good now. This is madness nervosa.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Feck the deck.... it looked like it was going to rain.... black clouds overhead. Bad day for painting and good day for smoke on the water.


OMG! You haven't even bought the paint yet! LOL. At least walk the dog!


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> This is madness nervosa.


You got that right! Order the Glenn amp. It'll take a while.


----------



## Oskari

… which will give us all months of agony.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> OMG! You haven't even bought the paint yet! LOL. At least walk the dog!



This is ma paint and the dog is on the mistress lap. It's all good. I'm back to listening to music.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> You got that right! Order the Glenn amp. It'll take a while.



Wait.... wait ...... wait.....

Ok now please explain why you think I should get Glenn's amp out of the 4 amps I mentioned? I need some compelling reasons why you think that should be my next amp.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Wait.... wait ...... wait.....
> 
> Ok now please explain why you think I should get Glenn's amp out of the 4 amps I mentioned? I need some compelling reasons why you think that should be my next amp.


I think it's the most unique of them. (Also the only one I remembered the name of.)


----------



## UntilThen

This is sounding so good now. Both with Euforia and Figaro. Why am I wanting another amp?

I'm listening to 'More Than This' by Avalon Roxy Music now..... maybe as the song title suggest?


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> I think it's the most unique of them. (Also the only one I remembered the name of.)



Haha... I think there's a good omen here. EL3N tube - UT discovered it.... remember? So it's logical that I get the EL3N tube amp right? 

So tempting especially when Glenn himself says it's one of his best sounding amp and that says a lot..... that transformers will set you back more than $1000. I think this 'thing' is heavy and the red tubes very striking. However this is transformer rather than OTL.... so it's definitely not the 6xEL3N sound that I heard in Elise or Euforia.... 

@whirlwind tells me it drive his ZMF Omri to madness and beyond.... and I have no idea what's one or two stage, with or without capacitors means. I just want an amp. I don't need to know the technicalities. Oh wait... there's also Glenn's OTL amp that can run 6x6BL7 ..... all dedicated and custom made without using external power supplies..... very tempting but.... that OTL amp doesn't look nice. It's very tube rollerable but it looks very DIY.

So I have to decide... looks matters or tube rolling fun? 

Looking at this... looks matters. However this is not a good photo. I should take photos for Glenn.


----------



## UntilThen

I can't decide if this looks nice too. The blue paint job is amazing but the naked exposed transformer and exposed screws all look pretty DIY ...... 

However in this picture. it sits next to a Yggy and that gets my attention.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2017)

However this custom order La Figaro 339 looks quite serious.....

Very appealing, especially I have already sampled what a standard LF339 sounds like. Let me tell you that the LF339 is a very good sounding headphone tube amp. Very very good.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2017)

Alright I know the whole purpose of my getting a flagship amp... well 'my' flagship amp... which means one I can afford and not some 5 figures monstrosities.

The whole purpose is to give a meaningful comparison to Elise and Euforia.

Without really listening to the competition, I would be forever enclosed in Elise land. FA amps might come up trumps and that would be a good thing but there's only one way to find out....

The question is..... can you handle the truth? I will tell you eventually when I get this 'amp'.

I love this movie. It was a sterling performance by some of the best actors.


----------



## Oskari

dminches said:


>



A custom styled Glenn amp.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2017)

Oskari said:


> A custom styled Glenn amp.



This is probably Glenn's most stylish creation.... no doubt most expensive too. I spy naked c3g as drivers and 300B as powers? No idea what those 2 tubes with wires are....

Also the meters... do they serve a purpose or is it for show? Looks very nice though.

Now I would prefer larger volume knobs. I have a fetish for larger knobs. Preferably metal ones.

Next to it is a Leben tube amp.... 

It sold a few minutes ago for AUD$5000 used....
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/125568-fs-leben-cs600/

Expensive hobby this.... 

Wait... there's still this Gryphon Diablo. Only AUD$8250.
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/125694-fs-gryphon-diablo-integrated-amplifier/


----------



## Rossliew

Glenn's EL3N amp sounds awesome as do his otl amps - transparent, dynamic, holographic yet not mushy. No need tube rolling headaches unless you want uber priced rectifiers but I'd advise u to get the hexfred ss rectifier instead. Go ahead, talk to Glenn. You won't regret it.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm still thinking Ragnarok .... 

I can move my Yggy and Rggy to the lounge and get those Axis speakers and subwoofers going again. Rggy should be sufficient to drive my Axis LS28 bookshelf speakers. The LS88 floorstander at 4 ohms might need more juice. It need 150 watts into 4 ohms to really sing.


----------



## Rossliew

Oskari said:


> A custom styled Glenn amp.


That uses py50 or was it py100 tubes as rectifiers. The meters are for biasing duties.  But nowadays Glenn prefers ss rectification.


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Glenn's EL3N amp sounds awesome as do his otl amps - transparent, dynamic, holographic yet not mushy. No need tube rolling headaches unless you want uber priced rectifiers but I'd advise u to get the hexfred ss rectifier instead. Go ahead, talk to Glenn. You won't regret it.



You still own the EL3N amp? I will wait for you to listen to Elise first. Then you can give me your honest opinion on Elise and Glenn's EL3N..... and yeah use 6xEL3N in Elise as comparison.... and the other tubes I'm including too... such as Valvo c3g and Mullard ECC31.... however don't use the ECC31 for too long on Elise. c3g with any 6as7 / 6080 should be good though. Use the c3g with the Tung Sol 7236.. it will be cutting edge.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2017)

Elise sounds very good in my opinion. Much better than Woo Audio Wa2 and Wa6 and I have heard both those amps.

Elise even competes against La Figaro 339. Euforia is a step up.

So I could have been very happy with Elise. This is the truth from Jack Nicholson.


----------



## Aornic

New Elise owner. Bought from a chap right here on Head-fi in fact!

Will receive them on Monday. It comes with a set of NOS Ken Rad driver tubes as well as a set of NOS GE6AS7GA power tubes (along with the stock tubes).

Anything I should grab up now off eBay? I plan on doing a review of the Elise and seeing how it pairs with ZMF Atticus + Eikon, Focal Utopia and MrSpeakers AEON.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2017)

The stock power tubes Svetlana 6h13c sounds better to my ears than the GE 6as7ga.

Ken Rad 6sn7gt is already strong in bass. Use that with the Svetlana 6h13c or grab yourself a pair of Mullard 6080 or better still a pair of Tung Sol 5998.

Utopia sounded great on my Euforia at the March 2017 Sydney meet.


----------



## UntilThen

Welcome Aornic to Elise thread. That makes 2 Elise changing hands in a single day.


----------



## Aornic

Howdy. I'll also be at Canjam London and will be trying the Euphoria there.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> This is probably Glenn's most stylish creation.... no doubt most expensive too. I spy naked c3g as drivers and 300B as powers? No idea what those 2 tubes with wires are....
> 
> Also the meters... do they serve a purpose or is it for show? Looks very nice though.
> 
> ...




Just got back from a week at the beach....only had a laptop and a pair of Grado SR60i to listen to, no amp.....it is funny how we throw money at a good sounding set up, when a $60 headphone plugged straight into a laptop can make your feet tap and your head bob...LOL!

That is a 300B amp made by Glenn.

Those small tubes with the caps on them are the rectifier tubes and they are 42EC4/PY500 tubes...cost is about $4-5 each, they are wonderful rectifier tubes.  Glenn is wonderful at using tubes that are cheap and that nobody else uses....the 1633 driver tubes that are 25volt SN7 tubes is another fine example.

Those meters are so you can adjust the bias on those 300B tubes, Glenns 300B amp is not auto biasing....you must set the bias to where the tubes sound the best.

All of the amps that you speak of are all very fine amps UT....don't think there is a right or wrong choice....although it would be to your advantage not to get another OTL amp, just because you already have two of them.


----------



## UntilThen

Aornic said:


> Howdy. I'll also be at Canjam London and will be trying the Euphoria there.



You will meet @hypnos1  there. He's responsible for Elise coming into being. It was he who mooted the idea of an amp that uses 6sn7 and 6as7 to Feliks Audio and it was taken up by FA.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> All of the amps that you speak of are all very fine amps UT....don't think there is a right or wrong choice....although it would be to your advantage not to get another OTL amp, just because you already have two of them.



I know they are all great sounding amps. That's why I've narrow it down to those. You're right too about me not getting another OTL amp. At this stage, it's best to get another amp to compliment Euforia. I'll be giving La Figaro 339 back to my son. I gave it to him so I can't take it back. It's a fact of life.

At this stage, Ragnarok looks like the ideal choice to compliment Euforia. Too many tube amps can be overkill. I'm running out of space to keep my tubes ! 

Amps reviews are all subjective and there's always personal bias, something even Jason alluded to. However, the longer I stay in this hobby, the more unbiased I become. I no longer wear the badge of any brand. If it sounds good to me, I will let it be known. I am not going to be able to hear lots of amps nor do I need to. 

Euforia is my benchmark. Everything else I hear will be compared against it. I'm sure there will be better and worst than it.... according to my ears and with the rest of my gear.


----------



## whirlwind

Yeah, it is all about the music, listen to music with your gear and not to your gear with music....it soothes the soul.

If you want to power speakers also...then your choice gets much narrower and much easier.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Yeah, it is all about the music, listen to music with your gear and not to your gear with music....it soothes the soul.
> 
> If you want to power speakers also...then your choice gets much narrower and much easier.



I've often said that about listening to music with your gear and not the other way around BUT....

I strongly believe now that our ears like a change of tone and appreciates new setup sound every now and then. That's why we roll tubes too. I for one couldn't and wouldn't be restricted to one set of tubes. It is also the reason why people have several headphones. This is also the reason why it's interesting to attend Can Jam. You want to hear different gear.  You want to know what's new in the industry. Well some might not... and that's ok. BUT the majority on Head-Fi does..... that's why they are on Head-Fi. Otherwise, they would be on Music-Fi. 

Your next statement. Powering speakers is a low priority now. Maybe in the future. Also I hate to buy an all-in-one wonder amp that does well in headphone and speakers. It would be a compromise. Someday, I'll return to the lounge but right now, my study is my place of zen. I sit in this posture.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> You still own the EL3N amp? I will wait for you to listen to Elise first. Then you can give me your honest opinion on Elise and Glenn's EL3N..... and yeah use 6xEL3N in Elise as comparison.... and the other tubes I'm including too... such as Valvo c3g and Mullard ECC31.... however don't use the ECC31 for too long on Elise. c3g with any 6as7 / 6080 should be good though. Use the c3g with the Tung Sol 7236.. it will be cutting edge.



No I've sold the EL3N amp to a local chap who didn't want to wait for the amp to be built. In any case I've loved it when I had it but one must move on and the only way for me to finance the next purchase was to sell something . Guess the Glenn drew the shortest straw or rather it was an amp which carried value as compared to the other low fi amps in my arsenal. 

I'm also looking at a Stax upgrade after this so I have two mid to top tier set ups for different flavours when the mood calls for it.


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> No I've sold the EL3N amp to a local chap who didn't want to wait for the amp to be built. In any case I've loved it when I had it but one must move on and the only way for me to finance the next purchase was to sell something . Guess the Glenn drew the shortest straw or rather it was an amp which carried value as compared to the other low fi amps in my arsenal.
> 
> I'm also looking at a Stax upgrade after this so I have two mid to top tier set ups for different flavours when the mood calls for it.



I sure hope I don't follow you .... in selling my stuff to funding more purchase. 

So I have to compete with you to get a Stax and Blue Hawaii setup? You are not turning 65 in 4 years time too I hope? 

This is a picture of Wink in the Sydney 2016 meet. He had the Stax SR-007 and SR-009 there. Also a baby Senn HE60 Orpheus. It's an incredibly good sounding headphone off Blue Hawaii. Wink had the Yggy connected to the Blue Hawaii and also had a NAD M51 that is used as a headphone stand !!!

The sound from the Blue Hawaii and Stax headphones are unreal. Simply unreal. I want it..... when I'm 65.

Wink at work - Sydney meet 2016

 

Senn HE60 Orpheus


----------



## UntilThen

In my opinion, an Elise and a Blue Hawaii setup is the pinnacle of a head-fi journey. How can you not be satisfied with this? 

I, on the other hand, look like I'm heading towards Euforia and Ragnarok. I have to ask the same question too. How can you not be happy with that? Especially after I steal Lobster LCD-3. So maybe I'll pass on the Blue Hawaii unless it's gifted to me.


----------



## UntilThen

Schiit Yggdrasil and Ragnarok at the Newport 2016 Show. This is already high-end. I'm just missing Rggy. I've heard Yggy, Rggy and hd800 together and I know how it sounded. I love it. I dream about it. It is articulate, refined and ruthlessly revealing and yet so natural sounding on the ears. It will just reveal how the recording is made and how the music sounded and how your headphone sounded. No colouration but yet so soothing and natural to listen to. No fatigue at all. This would be a great contrast to Yggy + Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I don't believe that because a particular audio component is more expensive necessarily means it is better, and right now I just personally am not interested in finding out if the more expensive amps are really better.



If I hadn't heard Blue Hawaii and Ragnarok, I would agree with you too. I'm no snob. I don't believe in flashing expensive equipment. However I have heard these amps with their partnering equipment. Morale of the story here is, 'Don't go to high end audio show or a high end audio store'. Once you've heard these, you will know that what you have is mid-fi. 

Hey nothing wrong with mid-fi, as long as there's a fi in it.

As @whirlwind  said, he was happy with a simple headphone whilst he was on holiday.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok I cannot read too much Schiit anymore. It gets more and more interesting and more and more expensive. !!!

Now there's a preamp 'Freya' and power amp 'Vidar' which when bridged becomes a 400-watt monoblock. Schiit as a headphone amp manufacturer has actually spearheaded into stereo setup now. I refuse to be a fanboy but I admire what Jason and Mike are doing and they are doing it very well, at realistic prices.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/rmaf2016/rmaf2016_schiit.htm

Now I'll return to talking about Elise and Euforia.... .. .. . .. ..


----------



## UntilThen

For the last 2 hours, as I read and write and post here, I've been listening to music from Yggy > Euforia > HD650. HD800 is being rested.

Euforia is a super mod Elise. It's basically Elise on steroids. If you look at Feliks Audio website and see what's been done to Euforia, you will know that it's not just an upgraded Elise. It's a super Elise. That's why they gave it a new name.

Just listening to Euforia alone, I can't hear any noise. The noise floor is extremely low. Can't hear it. It's super quiet with no music playing. When the music starts, there's a purity to the tone. It's like it's been surgically cleansed. Yet it's so organic and lush sounding. The lushness is not at the expanse of the extreme precision and pin point accurate melody. When I compare this to the Darkvoice 336se, it's miles apart. This sounds so refined compare to the DV336se.

@pctazhp  is right, when he question my judgement in wanting another amp after Euforia. However, that's because I am *UntilThen* and not before....


----------



## UntilThen

Now my old flame came back to haunt me. As good as Yggy is, my simple Denon TT is begging to be played. This guy's post has just jotted my memory of what it feels like to hold an LP in your hands.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/denon-dp-300f-belt-driven-turntable.196191/page-11

Btw, I'm Endless on Audiokarma. UntilThen here and Endless there. Good names right? 

If you need a new name, just ask me to give you one.


----------



## connieflyer

Matt, if that deck is not  painted by time we get there, where will we set up over production facility?


----------



## connieflyer

I have many names most of which can not be printed here!


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> I sure hope I don't follow you .... in selling my stuff to funding more purchase.
> 
> So I have to compete with you to get a Stax and Blue Hawaii setup? You are not turning 65 in 4 years time too I hope?
> 
> ...



Indeed the BHSE is top tier and one can stop right there...having said that i've a Carbon but paired with a very modest L300 so i, like you, am not quite satisfied. Maybe a grounded grid or a BHSE or maybe just an 007 will suffice. That HE60 looks very tasty too. Anyone here want to let go of a pair?


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> If I hadn't heard Blue Hawaii and Ragnarok, I would agree with you too. I'm no snob. I don't believe in flashing expensive equipment. However I have heard these amps with their partnering equipment. Morale of the story here is, 'Don't go to high end audio show or a high end audio store'. Once you've heard these, you will know that what you have is mid-fi.



I said I didn't "necessarily" believe higher price meant something is better. So if you disagree with me, apparently your listening to Blue Hawaii and Ragnarok has convinced you that higher price will always mean better.

Looks like you have relegated me and my system to mid-fi status. Oh, woe is me


----------



## connieflyer (Jul 8, 2017)

Never having heard the Blue Hawaii I am assuming that between the amp and new headphones I have about 9 or 10K wrapped up in the. Now if I spend that amount on this is that the end or is that just the beginning of the madness. I have to know before I commit to something like this or they will commit me


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Never having heard the Blue Hawaii I am assuming that between the amp and new headphones I have about 9 or 10K wrapped up in the. Now if I spend that amount on this is that the end or is that just the beginning of the madness. I have to know before I commit to something like this or they will commit me



That will get you to the upper limit of mid-fi. Special permission is required to move beyond that into hi-fi status. Later this afternoon I'll be modifying the thread's guidelines to make it clear that henceforth only hi-fi posts are permitted here. So hurry up and tell us everything you need to say, or PM me for special permission to move into hi-fi status, together with proof that you qualify. 

BTW, do you have a safe room in your home where you can hide when the guys in the white coats show up at your front door???

PS. Connor is doing fine in his new home here. However, he keeps barking something. As best I can make it out, he seems to be saying "Where's the Gumby???" I don't have the heart to tell him that after paying you $87,000 for him we will soon be evicted and have to move to the North Scottsdale Dog Pound.


----------



## connieflyer

Not to worry, PCT, Connor has an aversion to the dog pound so he will be hoping a plane back home I assume.  He has your credit card you know!


----------



## attmci (Jul 8, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Run ! Attila the Hun is awake.


I bet you have collected a lot of these valves too. 
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts.558352/


----------



## angpsi

Wow! Stay offline for a couple of days and nothing's the same! Although I did sense UT's certain tendency to going upscale ever since he got the Yggy... So go right ahead my friend, maybe when your gear reaches the variety of Currawong's you'll set up your own channel! Rest assured I'll be subscribing!

Welcome to Elisedom @Aornic. Having climbed myself a mountain of tube rolling with Elise and the HD600 I will only recommend you go straight from the stock Svetlana / Psvane to the GEC (=Marconi, Haltron) 6080 and the Sylvania 6sn7w. This way you'll go straight from FA sound signature to what I consider the closest thing I've heard to my ATC combo (see my signature). I believe this to be the one single leap of performance I've ever been to wholeheartedly acknowledge in my own setup.


----------



## Aornic

angpsi said:


> Wow! Stay offline for a couple of days and nothing's the same! Although I did sense UT's certain tendency to going upscale ever since he got the Yggy... So go right ahead my friend, maybe when your gear reaches the variety of Currawong's you'll set up your own channel! Rest assured I'll be subscribing!
> 
> Welcome to Elisedom @Aornic. Having climbed myself a mountain of tube rolling with Elise and the HD600 I will only recommend you go straight from the stock Svetlana / Psvane to the GEC (=Marconi, Haltron) 6080 and the Sylvania 6sn7w. This way you'll go straight from FA sound signature to what I consider the closest thing I've heard to my ATC combo (see my signature). I believe this to be the one single leap of performance I've ever been to wholeheartedly acknowledge in my own setup.


Thanks for the reply. I've already ordered some Mullards 6080 and will be trying out different combos. Will update in this thread later with impressions and review eventually.

I admit though, I feel the Utopia might not gel well with the amp due to the output impedance.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2017)

Hahaha I woke up and read all your new posts and my eyes gets misty. From laughter and from sadness.

Laughter because some of you are so funny. You took my mid-fi jab seriously. The difference between Yggy / Stax / Blue Hawaii and Yggy / Euforia / HD800 *isn't* really hi-fi and mid-fi. Remember I said that I prefer Yggy / Euforia / HD800 and I still do.

So.... if you have Gumby / Euforia / HD800, you are already at the pinnacle. Just hold your balance. Don't tip over the edge. 

Sadness because as good as my Yggy / Euforia / HD800 is, I'm still fascinated by Yggy / Stax / Blue Hawaii or Yggy / Rggy / HD800 or LCD-2 or 3.

Then this morning I decided to listen to La Figaro 339 one more time before I swap Elise for it with my son. The sound took my breath away. A tear roll down my eye as Figaro look at me in the eyes and said, 'I will sing for you like you've never heard before if only you would keep me'. I believe Figaro 100% because sing she did and no sopranos in the whole world came close. Furthermore, she told me, 'I'm no mid-fi. I'm the highest fi in all the land of fi.' All this while, Euforia, sitting on the side, nodded his head and said, 'Me too, me too'.

I look at the 2 amps before me and said to myself, 'I already have the best 2 OTL amps before my eyes. What more do I want. Another ss amp that cost twice as much? Or the blue amp that cost $3000 and have a one year wait? Or the red amp that I'm already off loading all my EL3N tubes?

So I say to myself. Stop this madness UT. Just order another black 2013 upgraded La Figaro 339 in either the bright tubes or warm tubes combination.

In doing so, I've reversed the order of the 'fi'. Elise, Euforia and Figaro is the highest fi in all the land, according to UT. Don't believe? Just look at this photo.


----------



## UntilThen

Aornic said:


> I admit though, I feel the Utopia might not gel well with the amp due to the output impedance.



Listen first. Don't form judgement beforehand. You will be surprised. I heard it.


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> I bet you have collected a lot of these valves too.
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts.558352/



Nope. Why would I need ECC33 or ECC35? I'm not a tube collector. I collect only tubes that I can use.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Matt, if that deck is not  painted by time we get there, where will we set up over production facility?



My wife gave me the same stern warning too. Tonight, I am moving my head-fi gear into Finn's kernel and together we will keep cosy. I'll have HD800 on my head and he will have T1 on his head.

Did you know that dogs can hear much better than us?


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2017)

Rossliew said:


> Indeed the BHSE is top tier and one can stop right there...having said that i've a Carbon but paired with a very modest L300 so i, like you, am not quite satisfied. Maybe a grounded grid or a BHSE or maybe just an 007 will suffice. That HE60 looks very tasty too. Anyone here want to let go of a pair?



Shsssh Ross. You have not even received your Elise and the avalanche of tubes. Once you receive it, you will forget there is a Blue Hawaii. Hawaii is only good for a holiday and the hula hula girls.... and the sea is deep bluish green by the way.

I hope you have a dynamic headphone with you. Like a HD800, T1, HD650 or HD600? If you do, I think I will hear you from where you live. Trust me. Remember I first heard Elise with C3g and Tung Sol 5998 and it's an unbelievable moment. It is that good.

You will be getting this minus the Tung Sol 5998. The 5998 is part of me. I can't let it go.


----------



## attmci

UntilThen said:


> Nope. Why would I need ECC33 or ECC35? I'm not a tube collector. I collect only tubes that I can use.


Ecc33 = 6sn7 almost.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 8, 2017)

attmci said:


> Ecc33 = 6sn7 almost.



I'm feverishly reading up on the La Figaro 339 thread. There's a variant that uses GEC CV1067 or L63. Seems to be the warmer variant of 339. I don't want to derail Elise thread though so I'll be chatting there...

if there is anyone left to chat with !!!! It's deserted now !!!

Looks like UT will have to do some magic there and revive the LF339 there too. 

The interesting bit on the 339 starts from this post onwards...
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/la-figaro-339.502306/page-34#post-7933147


----------



## UntilThen

I've been listening attentively between Euforia and La Figaro 339 for the last 2 hours again. 

I'm staggered at the performance of these 2 amps. Euforia has the edge - this is still my opinion as it was sometime ago. The euphony (pardon the pun) is shockingly good. I listen to a lot of chinese vocals and these song birds just sound so mesmerising. Euforia is more textured and dense.

La Figaro 339 captivates me too. It's has some very unique strength. Notes are more cutting edge, more precise, bass weight is infectious, soundstage is legendary and overall sound is ....... as good as Euforia.... just a tad different.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> There's a variant that uses GEC CV1067 or L63.


L63 is half of B65. Those are MOV types. The US equivalent types are 6J5G/6J5GT and 6SN7GT respectively.


----------



## connieflyer

Oskari, I really liked the 6j5 6l5 when I had the Ember amp.  Nice tubes.  Can you tell me the difference in GEC 6as7G tubes, between those marked 6AS7G A1834 GEC and those marked 6AS7G CV2523 GEC? Thank you.


----------



## UntilThen

Hmmm as tempting as it is to get another La Figaro 339 with 6j5g tubes, it still another OTL sound that is not too unsimilar to Euforia.

So now I am at this place again.... having Max Brenner chocolate next door before the head-fi shop opens. This time I will listen to Focal Utopia with Yggy and Rggy.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Oskari, I really liked the 6j5 6l5 when I had the Ember amp.  Nice tubes.  Can you tell me the difference in GEC 6as7G tubes, between those marked 6AS7G A1834 GEC and those marked 6AS7G CV2523 GEC? Thank you.


Those are basically different names for the same thing (if made by MOV/GEC). A1834 is the manufacturer's type code, CV2523 is the UK government type code, and 6AS7G is the US type code. The CVs were labeled for the UK government. In general, the biggest difference is the vintage, though.


----------



## UntilThen

Look at my breakfast....


----------



## angpsi

Aornic said:


> Thanks for the reply. I've already ordered some Mullards 6080 and will be trying out different combos. Will update in this thread later with impressions and review eventually.
> 
> I admit though, I feel the Utopia might not gel well with the amp due to the output impedance.


I also have the Mullard, which I paired with the Sylvania 6sn7wgt. Very good value and a gutsy combo. However, since I got the GEC 6080 and Sylvania 6sn7w I consider it a middle step towards the incredible achievement the letter produces. In most other combos I tried (including the Tung-Sol 5998) the outcome was a matter of personal preference; but I believe this one to be an achievement in performance that is hard not to acknowledge once it's heard. Of course there's a price tag attached, but at least it's less than the GEC A1386 which most consider the pinnacle of 6as7 power tubes!


----------



## connieflyer

Would one be better than the other? I have a cv2523 and see the other one for sale. 





Oskari said:


> Those are basically different names for the same thing (if made by MOV/GEC). A1834 is the manufacturer's type code, CV2523 is the UK government type code, and 6AS7G is the US type code. The CVs were labeled for the UK government. In general, the biggest difference is the vintage, though.


----------



## UntilThen

The pinnacle of my tubes will be tubeless soon.....

Hello.... can someone come bail me out of here before I walk out with Blue Hawaii, Ragnarok, Stax SR-009 and Focal Utopia?

Please .....


----------



## connieflyer

No more purchases until deck is painted, your misses will not even let you in the dog house if yo do!  Careful now!


----------



## UntilThen

I have decided to take over the whole shop. !!!!


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Would one be better than the other? I have a cv2523 and see the other one for sale.


I wouldn't worry about the labels if the tubes are of similar vintage and have matching brown bases.


----------



## UntilThen

CF the CV2523 is as good as any. So go for it.

I am just sad that the tube I send you sounded soft. I tested it before sending it out and it was great. 

Maybe sea sickness? Rest it and see if it will come back to life. Suppose to be a near NOS tube.


----------



## UntilThen

3 mins more before shop opens. Anyone have any request?


----------



## connieflyer

No problem UT, things happen, it might come back, will try tomorrow, right now have the RCA 6sn7gt's and Raytheon 6080 MB's in sound is great. The other gec is a 6AS7G CV2523 GEC the one I was looking at is an 1834


----------



## connieflyer

If you have any money left why not a pair of the Elears? The big brother is a little rich right now!


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> I have decided to take over the whole shop. !!!!


Gives you a place to sleep...


----------



## connieflyer

Wow! the Hdtracks 2014 sampler just came on with La Primavera Spring Allegro just came on have not heard this in a while and the attack of the violins is amazing on this combo! Sorry to interrupt your shopping trip!


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> Shsssh Ross. You have not even received your Elise and the avalanche of tubes. Once you receive it, you will forget there is a Blue Hawaii. Hawaii is only good for a holiday and the hula hula girls.... and the sea is deep bluish green by the way.
> 
> I hope you have a dynamic headphone with you. Like a HD800, T1, HD650 or HD600? If you do, I think I will hear you from where you live. Trust me. Remember I first heard Elise with C3g and Tung Sol 5998 and it's an unbelievable moment. It is that good.
> 
> You will be getting this minus the Tung Sol 5998. The 5998 is part of me. I can't let it go.


Lol! Not to worry I have the evergreen HD600 and T1 to hold the dynamic fort. Let's see how good this little amp really is. Time to search for the elusive tung sol 5998 methinks..


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> 3 mins more before shop opens. Anyone have any request?


Check out the BHSE for me please


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Check out the BHSE for me please



Ross they have the AUD $9999 BHSE with the alps volume control. This is the better version and anyone buying Blue Hawaii gets this. 

There's stock here. Just pay and walk out with it. No waiting for one year.


----------



## Rossliew

Hahahah so so tempting...is it the blue face plate one?


----------



## Rossliew

Oh and what have you gotten for yourself this fine Sunday morning ?


----------



## UntilThen

Was looking at these Grados....

Holy....


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Hahahah so so tempting...is it the blue face plate one?



Nope silver.... classic silver that never goes out of fashion.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright they place an order from the Melbourne store for Ragnarok for me. Together with 2 pyst balanced xlr cable to be used between Yggy and Rggy.

Paid a $100 deposit so I am commited.


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Oh and what have you gotten for yourself this fine Sunday morning ?



A Rag.... a very fine rag hahaha.... very expensive rag.


----------



## UntilThen

Ok driving home now.... to ppaint the fecking deck.


----------



## Rossliew

Hahaha now u can finally paint the deck in peace ! Gawd that BHSE is so tempting. When I visited the Melbourne shop last year they had the blue face plate one.


----------



## attmci

UntilThen said:


> Nope. Why would I need ECC33 or ECC35? I'm not a tube collector. I collect only tubes that I can use.


OK, I am a collector. Kind of. But every time I pulled the trigger, I had a feeling that Ken (gibosi) was there too. LOL 

Happy painting.


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> OK, I am a collector. Kind of. But every time I pulled the trigger, I had a feeling that Ken (gibosi) was there too. LOL
> 
> Happy painting.



Well I won't be a competitor to you guys now because I just commit to a Ragnarok. 

A thought just cross my mind....

I can use Yggy to Euforia (as preamp) and then out to Ragnarok..... !!! 

Now that might be something.... I think a star is born..... here in Sydney.


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Hahaha now u can finally paint the deck in peace ! Gawd that BHSE is so tempting. When I visited the Melbourne shop last year they had the blue face plate one.



No touching on that BHSE. That's AUD$9,999. You still have to buy either the Stax SR-007 or 009. The 009 is another AUD$5,999. 

That's a lot of nines. ..... I know I know, it's nice to have nines.


----------



## UntilThen

So ... pretty soon this will be my avatar.


----------



## UntilThen

Pct.... psst psst, can you gift your HD800S balance xlr cable to me? Or sell it to me for $50? 

Tq tq tq very much.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 9, 2017)

At the shop, they didn't have the Ragnarok and so have to order in for me from Melbourne. So the salesman offered their next best hp ss amp - the Violectric V281 which is also balance capable.... for $2699. Rggy is a bit more at $2950.

I went with Rggy. Matching looks and modular constructions that allows future upgrades, so that's a no brainer. However the Violectric is also a very good proposition. A very good sounding ss amp that is a bit warm like tube amp. So is Rggy but Rggy is a bit more neutral. Transient response is exemplary. As is details and absolute clarity. This is the trademark of a good ss amp.

Such a journey in head-fi for me. If you told me that this is my path when I started back in June 2015, I wouldn't have believe you. Even more incredible because I was and still am a diehard tube amp guy. So what change? Well I heard Ygg > Rggy > hd800 at the shop and 'Money For Nothing' literally became 'You ain't heard nothing yet'.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> No touching on that BHSE. That's AUD$9,999. You still have to buy either the Stax SR-007 or 009. The 009 is another AUD$5,999.
> 
> That's a lot of nines. ..... I know I know, it's nice to have nines.


Reaching out for it.............


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 9, 2017)

Rossliew said:


> Reaching out for it.............



Ok you buy it and I'll come and visit you.

... and we will have a mini meet in KL next year.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh at the shop, there is a black Yggdrasil on display.


----------



## UntilThen

I saw this at the London Can Jam thread and thought it's 50% off any Feliks Audio amp bought at the meet... 

*Feliks Audio* $50 off all Feliks Audio amplifiers ordered during CanJam London


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> Oh at the shop, there is a black Yggdrasil on display.


How much for the Yggy?

On the BHSE , A2A will not ship outside Oz so I'm outta luck unless you can help me ship it out ....


----------



## pctazhp

In honor of UT's new amp



In honor of his August amp



In honor of what he did when he got home instead of painting the deck


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> How much for the Yggy?
> 
> On the BHSE , A2A will not ship outside Oz so I'm outta luck unless you can help me ship it out ....




Yggy at A2A is $3849 but I got almost $350 discount off there buying it with hd800. Now I bend Tom's hand on the Rggy too and got a small discount. So yeah... Tom the salesman there will look after you. Just mention UT. 

Oh man.... you don't want to ship the Blue Hawaii .... just come to Australia for a holiday and bring it home with you personally.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> In honor of UT's new amp



Tq tq, I declare today a national holiday for all. Now how about that balanced xlr cable for hd800?


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Pct.... psst psst, can you gift your HD800S balance xlr cable to me? Or sell it to me for $50?
> 
> Tq tq tq very much.



I use the cable in my bathroom to hang wet bathing suits on, so it's not for sale.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 9, 2017)

Tom said that single ended sounds just as good so I will run with that first....until Oskari buys me a Cardas balanced xlr cable.

Thanks O !!!

I will accept Black Dragon too.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 9, 2017)

I want a Audeze LCD 2.2 now. 

No more buying till Christmas !!!


----------



## echineko

So Feliks Audio will be at Canjam London. I do believe this is their first representation at a headfi event, now I'm even more annoyed I won't be able to make it >.<


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 9, 2017)

echineko said:


> So Feliks Audio will be at Canjam London. I do believe this is their first representation at a headfi event, now I'm even more annoyed I won't be able to make it >.<



No worries. They are represented here by a bunch of motley crew. Everything you see at Can Jam London will be here.

Here you will see Elise and Euforia partner with all kinds of gear and brand. From exotic to lame, we don't discriminate.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> So ... pretty soon this will be my avatar.




Congrats on your new amp....you can definitely power your speakers now and it may be time to expand the headphone collection with some nice planar bass


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Congrats on your new amp....you can definitely power your speakers now and it may be time to expand the headphone collection with some nice planar bass



Haha thanks Joe. It never ends, isn't it? 

Will take it one step at a time. Next stage is a planar magnetic with a strong bass and a rich midrange.... sounds like a LCD 2.2? A lot of those are on sale now, for some reasons...

I'm actually very excited with Ragnarok. It will be a good add on for me. Besides I really like how coordinated it looks with Yggdrasil. My large desk isn't going to be large anymore.

Btw what HD800 balance xlr cable do you recommend without killing my banker? Salesman Tom said to run with the stock 6.3mm Senns cable till I'm ready to buy Cardas xlr balance....that's about $600 plus. 

I think Tom wants me to spend more.

oh yeah I'm buying these Schiit Pyst xlr cables too, to connect Yggy and Rggy. Quite cheap - $90.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 9, 2017)

Oh, man! It's come down to hours—I mean, I thought a couple of days made an overwhelming difference and now merely logging in after 10 hours I find a Ragnarok in the house (ok, I kinda expected that, like, if I had to bet my money on which amp UT would ultimately go for)... So now I have a plan: until I have the money to get an Yggdrasil I'll try to wear it off by watching all the episodes of Vikings!

PS. Quite annoyingly, just too many reviews / comparisons place the Yggdrasil at the top of the food chain, right next to big boys such as EMM Labs, MSB, etc. let alone R2R iterations. Oh, well, maybe when I turn 65 too. (Schiit, that's in 21 years!) Fellow Elise owners, please give me sound advice on which reasonably priced DAC (i.e. up to €400) will blow the Meridian Explorer 2 out of the water? Otherwise let me feel happy and settled in my mid-fi setup?

PS2. Nothing mid-fi about the sound I'm getting out of the Elise with the GEC6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w though!...


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Haha thanks Joe. It never ends, isn't it?
> 
> Will take it one step at a time. Next stage is a planar magnetic with a strong bass and a rich midrange.... sounds like a LCD 2.2? A lot of those are on sale now, for some reasons...
> 
> ...


These seem to get very favorable reviews. I almost pulled the trigger myself on a Claire hybrid. And they come from a boutique shop in Poland. See the connection? "Claire"; "boutique"; "Poland"?


----------



## angpsi

Does this look like another pimped out version of the Holo Audio Spring DAC to you? Anything special about this unit in comparison to a Level 3? http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/dac-s...ique-xlr-24bit384khz-usb-30-xmos-p-12038.html


----------



## UntilThen

I came out from my bath and the thread exploded. Angelo what did you do?


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> I came out from my bath and the thread exploded. Angelo what did you do?


Nothing to match your escapades!


----------



## whirlwind (Jul 9, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Haha thanks Joe. It never ends, isn't it?
> 
> Will take it one step at a time. Next stage is a planar magnetic with a strong bass and a rich midrange.... sounds like a LCD 2.2? A lot of those are on sale now, for some reasons...
> 
> ...




Ha ha, this place will play hell with one's wallet, for sure.

I have never heard an LCD 2.2 so I can't really comment on it, from my understanding it is a nice headphone.
There are many planars to choose from these days.

On the cable front, there are even more headphone cables....seems everybody is making them so if you are indeed wanting one take your pick...you can spend a couple thosand in a headphone cable....pretty crazy , right!
i have only ever bought new headphone cables if there was something that I did not like about the cable physically, I have never bought a headphone cable just to try to make my headphone sound better, but I am sure that good ones do make it sound better, but the diminishing returns would seem to be at the max when chasing cables....just my opinion of course.

I have a Norne Draug 2 for the HD800, it sounds better, but I bought it because i could not stand the length of the original HD800 cable, too long for my liking....the sound was great with it though, no issues with the sound with the original cable for me.

As far as balanced cables go, it will only sound better based on the topology of the amp....it goes beyond just the balanced cables, although many would disagree.
The balanced cables are always better for really long cable runs.

All this being said, I have had people tell me  "even if it is placebo, if you think it sounds better...then it sounds better"   

Congrats again on the new amp.


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi ....

All the glowing reviews of Yggy is making my head spin. All these reviewers are spin doctors you know? I mean with so many reviews, both professional and amateurs, if I did a review, it would go unnoticed !!!

I should have bought an underdog dac.... and amp. Instead I have to buy an immense world tree and armageddon.

Recommend you a dac around 400 pounds? After listening to Yggy, it's hard for me to recommend anything else. I would be lying if I ask you to buy another dac. 

Ask @whirlwind. He's getting the Holo Spring level 3 soon, so he's my competitor. 

Ask @connieflyer and he will say Gumby.

Ask @hypnos1 and he will say Chord Hugo 2.

Ask @pctazhp  and he will say buy his Bimby so he can buy my Yggy and I can buy a VPI turntable.

Whatever dac you buy, it has to be a statement dac. It has to scream attention. Maybe a Chord Dave?


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> PS2. Nothing mid-fi about the sound I'm getting out of the Elise with the GEC6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w though!...



Indeed Angie. Whoever coin the term mid-fi is cruel. Now who say that? !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because as far as I am concerned, your system is your castle and you are the king. Woe unto the intruder. So stand proud and wear the badge of honor and call your system 'Hi-Fi'.


----------



## angpsi

I will plant a tree using these schematics. Perhaps it will grow into an Yggdrasil.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 9, 2017)

whirlwind said:


> On the cable front, there are even more headphone cables....seems everybody is making them so if you are indeed wanting one take your pick...you can spend a couple thosand in a headphone cable....pretty crazy , right!



Believe me Joe, I don't even have any money left to buy a shoe lace, let alone a 1000 dollars headphone cable.

Btw, I brought my NAD d1050 and La Figaro 339 to my son's place earlier and listen to the setup with his HE560. It's preeeetty gooooood !

You don't have to spend much to get good sound. Synergy !!!

..... and what tubes were in the LF339?  It's Mullard EF86 and RCA 6080. My son ask where's the 5998? I said, that's a part of me and it can't be separated. 

..... and I didn't tell him about the Gec 6as7g...... that's a secret.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> Believe me Joe, I don't even have any money left to buy a shoe lace, let alone a 1000 dollars headphone cable.
> 
> Btw, I brought my NAD d1050 and La Figaro 339 to my son's place earlier and listen to the setup with his HE560. It's preeeetty gooooood !
> 
> ...





I hear you loud and clear, lol.

I agree with you that you do not have to spend crazy money to get great sound.

You can get a good system on a $1000 budget and be very happy....even less with the right headphones, if one likes the Grado sound, you can get by with a very cheap amp.

A Senn HD6XX or eqivilent headphone , a nice OTL and a decent dac is all one would ever need. Especially if you don't listen everyday and if your budget can afford it.

For a planar headphone you would just need to replace the OTL with an amp that provides more current, not that an OTL won't work, but more current definitely helps the planar drivers .

If one would want Stats headphones, then you would need the proper amp for those, there are good entry level options there also.

Get the best you can with the budget you have and you can be very happy....don't worry about something sounding better, because there is always something that sounds better


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Get the best you can with the budget you have and you can be very happy....don't worry about something sounding better, because there is always something that sounds better



The problem with that statement is that you will upgrade faster than you think... you won't be satisfied with your 1st system for long.

The truth is, both you and I know that we are happier now than when we first started, despite spending heaps more. Did the sound improve a lot now compared to when we first started? Definitely. When I started, I bought the JDS o2/odac new from Noisy Motel (https://www.noisymotel.com/) and I had the Beyer DT880 pro. 

A funny story.... my wife only saw my Noisy Motel invoice recently and she ask, 'What were you doing at the Noisy Motel?'. I was speechless. I have to hide the A2A invoice now. If she sees Schiit in it.... that would be the end of me. She would ask, 'You bought Schiit?' My daughter couldn't stop laughing when I told her the brand name.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> The problem with that statement is that you will upgrade faster than you think... you won't be satisfied with your 1st system for long.
> 
> The truth is, both you and I know that we are happier now than when we first started, despite spending heaps more. Did the sound improve a lot now compared to when we first started? Definitely. When I started, I bought the JDS o2/odac new from Noisy Motel (https://www.noisymotel.com/) and I had the Beyer DT880 pro.
> 
> A funny story.... my wife only saw my Noisy Motel invoice recently and she ask, 'What were you doing at the Noisy Motel?'. I was speechless. I have to hide the A2A invoice now. If she sees Schiit in it.... that would be the end of me. She would ask, 'You bought Schiit?' My daughter couldn't stop laughing when I told her the brand name.




If your budget allows you, maybe you do. 

When I joined this site over 10 years ago, i settled on the MadEar+HD headphone amp and the RS1 headphone, that is where my budget was, I used this combo for years before upgrading to the HD800
Still wish i had that MadEar+HD headphone amp....made by the great Dr.  Peppard in Canada.  All point to point wiring with no pcb in the amp.....wonderful kit.


----------



## Oskari

UntilThen said:


> Tom said that single ended sounds just as good so I will run with that first....until Oskari buys me a Cardas balanced xlr cable.


Good luck with that.


----------



## Oskari (Jul 9, 2017)

angpsi said:


> These seem to get very favorable reviews. I almost pulled the trigger myself on a Claire hybrid. And they come from a boutique shop in Poland. See the connection? "Claire"; "boutique"; "Poland"?


The Forza AudioWorks cables look nice, and are almost affordable.


----------



## whirlwind

angpsi said:


> Does this look like another pimped out version of the Holo Audio Spring DAC to you? Anything special about this unit in comparison to a Level 3? http://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/dac-s...ique-xlr-24bit384khz-usb-30-xmos-p-12038.html



Looks very similar to a Holo Springs dac, not sure what level.....I can't read that webpage, so I do not want to say for sure...I will say it looks *similar*


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> If your budget allows you, maybe you do.
> 
> When I joined this site over 10 years ago, i settled on the MadEar+HD headphone amp and the RS1 headphone, that is where my budget was, I used this combo for years before upgrading to the HD800
> Still wish i had that MadEar+HD headphone amp....made by the great Dr.  Peppard in Canada.  All point to point wiring with no pcb in the amp.....wonderful kit.



You started with the right amp. The Mad Ear +HD is a visually stunning looking tube amp and it pair beautifully with Grados. I'm not a fan of Grados but at A2A today, I saw the biggest Grados in my life.

That's how big the Grado 2000e looks....


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Looks very similar to a Holo Springs dac, not sure what level.....I can't read that webpage, so I do not want to say for sure...I will say it looks *similar*



At A2A today, the Metrum Pavane was in the showroom, ready for auditioning. I refuse to listen to it. 

.... and there was a black Yggy !!!


----------



## Rossliew

Grado's are fun sounding especially with rock music. Love my Grado's !


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> In honor of what he did when he got home instead of painting the deck


LOL.









…


----------



## Oskari

…








_Abba_

Sorry, what was I saying?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Oh, man! It's come down to hours—I mean, I thought a couple of days made an overwhelming difference and now merely logging in after 10 hours I find a Ragnarok in the house (ok, I kinda expected that, like, if I had to bet my money on which amp UT would ultimately go for)... So now I have a plan: until I have the money to get an Yggdrasil I'll try to wear it off by watching all the episodes of Vikings!
> 
> PS. Quite annoyingly, just too many reviews / comparisons place the Yggdrasil at the top of the food chain, right next to big boys such as EMM Labs, MSB, etc. let alone R2R iterations. Oh, well, maybe when I turn 65 too. (Schiit, that's in 21 years!) Fellow Elise owners, please give me sound advice on which reasonably priced DAC (i.e. up to €400) will blow the Meridian Explorer 2 out of the water? Otherwise let me feel happy and settled in my mid-fi setup?
> 
> PS2. Nothing mid-fi about the sound I'm getting out of the Elise with the GEC6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w though!...



First, feeling happy on this thread is not allowed. You always have to be dreaming of your next purchase. I think I put that in the guidelines.

Second, within your budget, if you buy any DAC other than the Schiit Modi Multibit you are a certifiable bonehead. Designed by the same guy who desired Yggdrasil. Do you think he would associate his name with anything that is not wonderful???? I promise you it will blow your ME2 out of the water and you'll still have money to burn. If you think I've misled you I will allow you to buy my Bifrost Multibit for the discounted price of $598 USD.


----------



## pctazhp

I apologize for going off topic, but my Fotons arrived yesterday - beautifully packed and in the original boxes. They are the cat's meow!!!!


----------



## connieflyer

That  where the cat noise came from, looked all over for it


----------



## connieflyer

If UT. Does not get the deck painted let's tell his wife about the Schist invoice!!!


----------



## pctazhp

The Fotons are at the pinnacle of 6SN7 performance. A year from now they will be hard to find for anything less than $1800 a pair. Buy a bunch now, and in a year you can get a CATamaran boat.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> If UT. Does not get the deck painted let's tell his wife about the Schist invoice!!!



She already knows. I'm helping her find a lawyer in Sydney who specializes in commitment and institutionalization of the mentally bonker-heads. I'm also checking on reputable painters.


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> If UT. Does not get the deck painted let's tell his wife about the Schist invoice!!!


I'm pretty sure he will paint that invoice along with the deck—destroy all the evidence!


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> First, feeling happy on this thread is not allowed. You always have to be dreaming of your next purchase. I think I put that in the guidelines.
> 
> Second, within your budget, if you buy any DAC other than the Schiit Modi Multibit you are a certifiable bonehead. Designed by the same guy who desired Yggdrasil. Do you think he would associate his name with anything that is not wonderful???? I promise you it will blow your ME2 out of the water and you'll still have money to burn. If you think I've misled you I will allow you to buy my Bifrost Multibit for the discounted price of $598 USD.


Still trying to persuade me to go mid–fi, eh? Well, I might as well give it a try as long as you never tell me it's a bottleneck on my system!


----------



## angpsi

whirlwind said:


> Looks very similar to a Holo Springs dac, not sure what level.....I can't read that webpage, so I do not want to say for sure...I will say it looks *similar*


Been trying to do "spot the difference" but all I see is Vishay... Problem is that if you go for $1600, you might as well go for $2600 and be done with gradual upgrades—at least that's what I learned from my brief tube rolling experience...


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> The Forza AudioWorks cables look nice, and are almost affordable.


They are, aren't they?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> I'm pretty sure he will paint that invoice along with the deck—destroy all the evidence!



She doesn't need any evidence to understand exactly what she is dealing with. I wish she would join the thread so we could offer her our condolences


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Still trying to persuade me to go mid–fi, eh? Well, I might as well give it a try as long as you never tell me it's a bottleneck on my system!



Honestly, I love my Bimby. I don't try to compare it here with the other Schiit multibit DACs because I have never heard them. But I don't think I am suffering in mid-fi purgatory, and I don't think you will be either with Modi Multibit. Like the Foton drivers, it should be the cat's meow!!!


----------



## UntilThen

The weekend's over and the deck's not painted. Next week is even worst. Next week I expect Ragnarok to be here. Deck painting is ON HOLD indefinitely.


Oskari said:


> Sorry, what was I saying?



Naughty naughty Oskari. My next long post will be devoted to you.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Designed by the same guy who desired Yggdrasil. Do you think he would associate his name with anything that is not wonderful????



I thought you were talking about me. I mistake 'Designed' with 'Critiqued' because if it's the latter, that would be me.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I'm pretty sure he will paint that invoice along with the deck—destroy all the evidence!



Very good idea. Only an architect would think of this. So brilliant.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Still trying to persuade me to go mid–fi, eh? Well, I might as well give it a try as long as you never tell me it's a bottleneck on my system!



Ok this make me laugh at 6am. Joke of the month.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Honestly, I love my Bimby. I don't try to compare it here with the other Schiit multibit DACs because I have never heard them. But I don't think I am suffering in mid-fi purgatory, and I don't think you will be either with Modi Multibit.



Why don't you try them.... I mean a bit up the Schiit multibit ladder. A guy here on the local classified bought a Gumby and was so happy, he's trying to sell his Bimby but no takers. So sad..... 

The truth is, Bimby is actually quite good because some of the pro reviewers use it to review Ragnarok..... unless they don't know what they are talking.

I on the other hand, have only heard Yggy and have not heard the other Schiit multibits. I don't think I'm suffering an itch to try them. I just reach out my hand and stroke Yggy's smooth surface..... incredible smoothness. The aluminium is machined to 0.00000000000000001 micron smoothness. If they machine it anymore, you will see your face in it.

Pct, buy Yggy !!!

With Bimby, you only hear 'Do Ray Me'. With Gumby, you hear 'Do Ray Me Fa So'. With Yggy you hear 'Do Ray Me Far So La Tee Doh' !!!

Now do you want to hear the whole symphony or not ???


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> Why don't you try them.... I mean a bit up the Schiit multibit ladder. A guy here on the local classified bought a Gumby and was so happy, he's trying to sell his Bimby but no takers. So sad.....
> 
> The truth is, Bimby is actually quite good because some of the pro reviewers use it to review Ragnarok..... unless they don't know what they are talking.
> 
> ...



You have identified the crux of the dilemma. Without Yggy I don't hear the Doh, but I don't have Yggy because I don't have the Dough. Now if you want to buy my Senn XLR cable for $2,400 problem is solved. 

No one is buying Bimby because you have convinced Australia it is farmer, mid-fi DAC


----------



## UntilThen

With La Figaro gone, this is how my system looks now. I'm still amaze at the sound produce by Yggy > Euforia > hd800. It's perfection.... say that in french. It sounds better.

Vocals now hit all the right notes. Pitch perfect. Sopranos soar ... their high notes just keep going higher and higher... Mid-range will caress your ears. Norah Jones whispers in my ears. You will 'feel' the low frequencies. Bass is as it is intended. It needs to kick you in the gut. It's tight fisted and yet an avalanche at times but never mushy. A cymbal sounds like a cymbal. A Tom Tom sounds like Tom. A kick drum sounds like Kick drums. Bass guitar sounds like bass guitar. Just ask any decent bass guitar players.

When Ragnarok comes, I think the 'gold' Onkyo will have to go.... it wouldn't look good if I stack Ragnarok on top of that. It has to look good as well as sound good.


----------



## UntilThen

This guy seems to know what he's talking about. He has Ragnarok too.....

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-357#post-13589371


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> You have identified the crux of the dilemma. Without Yggy I don't hear the Doh, but I don't have Yggy because I don't have the Dough. Now if you want to buy my Senn XLR cable for $2,400 problem is solved.
> 
> No one is buying Bimby because you have convinced Australia it is farmer, mid-fi DAC



Hello Pct my friend.... can I borrow your HD800S ?

I think it will sound great with Yggdrasil and Ragnarok. I really do. I really, really believe it will sound good in this setup - balanced of course.


----------



## UntilThen

This is what Ceasar said...

 

However, in Head-Fi, this is what you should say...

 

Ceasar doesn't know what he's talking. If only he knew Head-Fi, there will be no wars, no suffering.... just saying.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright time to shower and go to work. Tom will call sometime today or tomorrow and I will know if my Ragnarok is a Ragnarok or a Blue Hawaii.....

He said if he couldn't get a Rag, he will give me Blue Hawaii plus the Stax SR-009.... in exchange for my HD800. I still get to keep my Yggy.


----------



## UntilThen

Where is @hypnos1  ?  Maybe he's playing with his Hugo 2. Come on CJ, give us the low down on the Chord.


----------



## Rossliew

Lol stop flooding the thread and go to work already 

Btw have you sold your La Figaro 339?


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> This guy seems to know what he's talking about. He has Ragnarok too.....
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-357#post-13589371



Please keep in mind I read at a 4th grade level and need things kept very simple. Why would someone who thinks Gumby sounds better own a Yggy??? He must be a La Tee Doh kind of guy.

I would lend you my HD800S but I just gave it to my neighbor who was asking me what he should use for the new Sansung S8 he's getting. I'm unloading my entire farmer system and starting over.


----------



## connieflyer

QUOTE="pctazhp, post: 13590060, member: 433770"]Please keep in mind I read at a 4th grade level and need things kept very simple. Why would someone who thinks Gumby sounds better own a Yggy??? He must be a La Tee Doh kind of guy.

I would lend you my HD800S but I just gave it to my neighbor who was asking me what he should use for the new Sansung S8 he's getting. I'm unloading my entire farmer system and starting over.[/QUOTE] WHAT??? You did not offer it to me? Oh whoa is me!


----------



## pctazhp

Unfortunate oversight CF. I'm sending you my Monk V to make up for it.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 9, 2017)

Rossliew said:


> Lol stop flooding the thread and go to work already
> 
> Btw have you sold your La Figaro 339?



Gave it to my son in the hope that he will give me Utopia one day. 

No I will tell him I want Stax and Blue Hawaii on my 65th.... make it 63rd.... can't wait that long.


----------



## pctazhp

I'm feeling nostalgic tonight. When I first listened to this recording right after I got Elise is when I realized I had struck gold with my new amp. It's also one of the recordings I used extensively when I did my 30-day comparison between HD800S and Beyer T1-Gen2. I remember being concerned that the S never quite gave me the emotional connection with the recording that I got with the T1. That was a year and a half ago. Those were heady days for those of us who were discovering the magic of Elise and trying all kinds of different and crazy tubes. This week I'm probably going to list my Elise for sale - hint, hint ))) - and at least for me much of the naive and pioneering quality of the early F-A days is just a memory. I enjoy listening as much as I did then - probably even more. But many of the "Lucky Ones" (as we used to call ourselves) have dropped by the wayside and we F-A HeadFi types are in a new phase. I also think HeadFi lost an absolutely critical feature with us no longer being able to see who specifically is on the thread at any given time. The sense of community is just not quite the same. It's been quite a ride, and who knows what the future will bring.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> Please keep in mind I read at a 4th grade level and need things kept very simple. Why would someone who thinks Gumby sounds better own a Yggy??? He must be a La Tee Doh kind of guy.
> 
> I would lend you my HD800S but I just gave it to my neighbor who was asking me what he should use for the new Sansung S8 he's getting. I'm unloading my entire farmer system and starting over.




What? ! He said Gumby is better?

Ok.... prepare a lawsuit for me Pct. I am suing.


----------



## connieflyer

I have to agree with PCT about the structure of this forum while I am getting used to it and it is usable there are features such as being notified that keep dropping off by the wayside and like he said not being able to see who is online at the time makes it a solitary thing sure there's a little blue diamond in the corner of your login screen but who's going to go through the last three or four pages to see who is actually online at that time. I know they're trying to scramble to get things up to date but that is one of the key things I think that made it a community Forum not just some place to go put your writings. Wow I feel much better now that I've vented. Good thing it's summer I don't have to open a window. By the way PCT give me a little bit of time before you send the monkeys so that I can get a bunch of bananas in the house and get ready for them!!!


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> What? ! He said Gumby is better?
> 
> Ok.... prepare a lawsuit for me Pct. I am suing.



Sue him?? No way. He just saved me over $1,000


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> By the way PCT give me a little bit of time before you send the monkeys so that I can get a bunch of bananas in the house and get ready for them!!!



Your jokes are driving me


 

What do you call a bee who likes to chew gum? A Gum-Bee

What do you call an all blond bee? A Bimbo-Bee

What is a Yiggy-Bee?  A bee that doesn't sound as good as a Gum-Bee


----------



## Tim Le

Oh my, I just came back from a weekend trip to 250 messages, a new amp, and the infamous, unpainted deck. Glad it's always a party 

Also, you guys were talking about the LCD-2s earlier. I think for all you hd800 and t1 fans, you'd find the treble in the LCD-2 way too suppressed.


----------



## angpsi

Amidst our ramblings, I kinda missed that this was happening: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40520218

Forget Schiit, I'm buyin' Kondo!!!


----------



## angpsi

They say it'll take them up to 15 years to set it up, but that's about how long I need until I might be able to afford this gear!...


----------



## UntilThen

Pct you forget I am still here....


Tim Le said:


> Also, you guys were talking about the LCD-2s earlier. I think for all you hd800 and t1 fans, you'd find the treble in the LCD-2 way too suppressed.



The longer I am in this hobby, the less I'm inclined to stay with just one headphone. Right now my ideal headphones are HD800 and HD650. These headphones are complimentary to me. I think you can love articulate, revealing and startling transients response as well as warm, lush, cushiony and caressing tones.

Much has been touted about LCD 2.2 / 3 comforting sound. I'd like to audition one. I might get to love it. I'm just not too sure about the quality of construction. I like a headphone that will last for at least 5 years.

It's shocking how little I use T1 now. Maybe I should put it on now....


----------



## angpsi (Jul 10, 2017)

UT, did you check out Forza AudioWorks? They got an Audeze LCD pictured with their TOTL Noir series.


----------



## UntilThen

So Forza is a cable maker.... my priority now is a balanced 4pin xlr cable for my hd800.

I need to know once and for all whether balance is better than single ended..... in the context of Yggy and Rggy of course.


----------



## angpsi

Apparently you can have your balanced cable at half the price of a Cardas. I myself am debating whether to go for the Claire or save my money to pay the phone bill!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Apparently you can have your balanced cable at half the price of a Cardas. I myself am debating whether to go for the Claire or save my money to pay the phone bill!



Hmmmm.... you got my attention now. I need to check out this Forza Audioworks cable.

Here's a review of 3 cables for HD800. 
https://headmania.org/2014/06/18/aftermarket-cables-for-sennheiser-hd800/


----------



## UntilThen

In the midst of looking for an aftermarket cable for my HD800, I decide to roll in these tubes again. 

The heavens open... and I felt the hairs on my hands rising....


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> What is a Yiggy-Bee? A bee that doesn't sound as good as a Gum-Bee



Did you ask him about his big DAC ?

He said ''MY BIG DAC' not 'MY BIG DACs'. There is one big dac.

I think Mike is really proud of his creation, especially Yggy.... and I don't blame him.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> So Forza is a cable maker.... my priority now is a balanced 4pin xlr cable for my hd800.
> 
> I need to know once and for all whether balance is better than single ended..... in the context of Yggy and Rggy of course.


Let's not put your hopes too high...


----------



## myphone

I have HVDA 600, balanced HD800 is significantly better than single ended.


----------



## DavidA

myphone said:


> I have HVDA 600, balanced HD800 is significantly better than single ended.


Curious as to why balanced is significantly better than the SE to you? 

When I heard the HD800 on a HDVD800 the balanced output did sound a bit better in sound stage / imaging but the over all tone was pretty much the same.  I've also heard a few other amps (Liquid Glass, Liquid Gold, MHA-100, Darkstar and a few others) that provide both balanced and SE output and couldn't hear much of a difference between either connection.  I had an expectation that the balanced output would sound significantly better with all the hype on the Liquid Carbon and Jot threads but I wasn't able to really test these amps since I only had them for a day.


----------



## myphone

DavidA said:


> Curious as to why balanced is significantly better than the SE to you?
> 
> When I heard the HD800 on a HDVD800 the balanced output did sound a bit better in sound stage / imaging but the over all tone was pretty much the same.  I've also heard a few other amps (Liquid Glass, Liquid Gold, MHA-100, Darkstar and a few others) that provide both balanced and SE output and couldn't hear much of a difference between either connection.  I had an expectation that the balanced output would sound significantly better with all the hype on the Liquid Carbon and Jot threads but I wasn't able to really test these amps since I only had them for a day.



Balanced has better control and better sound stage than single ended. As well as more easiness. DACs, Ayer codex, and HRT streamer HD.


----------



## pctazhp

I understand balanced analog circuitry was developed to eliminate noise in long runs such as are used in recording studios or at concerts. I have read and talked to a number of technically competent people who claim there is no technical advantage to balanced analog circuitry in the desktop setting with short runs. One can find subjective opinions all over the map, but few who claim balanced superiority provide any technical back up. Also, I understand there can be a lot of difference as to how analog balanced circuitry is implemented, including "fake" balance. I have never run my HD800S in balanced mode, so I can't even offer a subjective evaluation. But I approach claims of balanced superiority with a huge grain of salt, particularly when someone is trying to universalize their own subjective and limited experience.

Gumby and Yggy in the digital domain use what Schiit calls "true hardware balancing", which I understand is a different technical issue than balanced analog circuitry. In both DACs the balanced analog signal fed to the RCA outputs is internally summed and I have read a lot of Gumby and Yggy owners report they detect little difference between the XLR and RCA outputs.


----------



## UntilThen

I woke up this morning to a balance vs unbalance war. What have I done? 

Listen folks. I will be the judge of that when I get balance cables for my HD800 and HD650. My ears will be the judge and you can count on them. I wash it every time I bath.

If balance is not better than unbalance, I will tell you and you can all go about with your unbalance life. Ok? 

However, I won't get it now. I want to listen to HD800 and HD650 on Yggy and Rggy for a while first before trying balance. That way, I can properly evaluate it. Scientific right? You can count on UT to do the sensible twang. !


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> I have read a lot of Gumby and Yggy owners report they detect little difference between the XLR and RCA outputs.



It's not selective reading I hope.... 

I on the other hand, have read a lot of owners reporting that they find balance better than unbalance.... in the Schiit dac and amp combo.

But what would they know. I will find out for myself.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> I woke up this morning to a balance vs unbalance war. What have I done?
> 
> Listen folks. I will be the judge of that when I get balance cables for my HD800 and HD650. My ears will be the judge and you can count on them. I wash it every time I bath.
> 
> ...



You may find this hard to believe but just because you mention a particular subject, doesn't mean you are the only one entitled to an opinion on it. I don't care what you listen to or decide or buy. That is totally your personal choice. But what I say and discuss here is my own personal choice. You can continue to challenge everything I say. That's your choice. Let the chips fall where they may.

And there was no war going on here over balanced vs unbalanced. Just some opinions. My opinion was clearly stated as my own, and I made no definitive statements or claims.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 10, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> You can continue to challenge everything I say.



Sad that you think I'm challenging you in everything you say. Many others commented on this balance stuff in the above posts. I don't think they feel I am challenging them in any way.

Anyway, my jokes are obviously getting offensive to you. That wasn't the intent.

I have not even form an opinion on balance vs unbalance btw.


----------



## UntilThen

pctazhp said:


> You may find this hard to believe but just because you mention a particular subject, doesn't mean you are the only one entitled to an opinion on it. I don't care what you listen to or decide or buy. That is totally your personal choice. But what I say and discuss here is my own personal choice. You can continue to challenge everything I say. That's your choice. Let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> And there was no war going on here over balanced vs unbalanced. Just some opinions. My opinion was clearly stated as my own, and I made no definitive statements or claims.



I do not understand your outburst Pct. I sense anger in your response and I am wondering why. What I said and do here recently must be very offensive to you.

That's ok. It's your thread. I shall leave and have my own.


----------



## pctazhp

UntilThen said:


> I do not understand your outburst Pct. I sense anger in your response and I am wondering why. What I said and do here recently must be very offensive to you.
> 
> That's ok. It's your thread. I shall leave and have my own.



This is NOT my thread. The only power I have on this thread that no one else has is I can edit the very first post, and I have always tried to respond to any request from a member to add what they wanted to that first post. The "guidelines" that I set forth there when I started the thread have no means of being enforced. And when I started this thread I had no idea it would become the primary Elise thread. It was intended mainly for those who were tired of Christmas Trees and Frankensteins on the other thread to hang out. It obviously moved far beyond that.

No need to leave the thread. I need a break from HeadFi, and it will probably be a long break. I've got some personal issues I've been dealing with, and it obviously is spilling over here. Good luck to everyone.


----------



## UntilThen

Well Pct, I do want to start something new.... not because I will feel more powerful. 

Fact is from here on, it won't be just Feliks Audio amps for me. I mean they will be a part of me and Euforia is a keeper but at the same time, I'm branching out to other gear, which I think I will love just as much.
So it will be a thread to encompass more than FA's amps. What it is going to be called yet... I don't know but it will come to me and I would love like minded hobbyist to share that with me too.

So none of you will be left alone. I will link the new thread here.

Pct, I don't leave this thread because of a tiff with you. That would be too immature and also disregarding the many months we share here.... precious. However if I continue, I will derail Head-Fi even !!! ... so a generic thread hopefully 

I mean if I keep heaping praises on La Figaro 339 on an Elise thread.... I'm surprised no stones were thrown at me yet. Or my talking about Yggerty yggerty do, every single day. Soon it will be Rggerty rggerty do too.

Take your break. You earn it and I hope you will come back refreshed but I will be in a new watering hole.


----------



## pctazhp

There are a number of reasons I'm leaving. You can also chose to leave, but they should be your own reasons for doing so, and not because of me. I don't see anyone asking to you leave or leaving because of you. I may or may not come back to HeadFi. If I do, I'll look for Shane's new watering hole if he really does ride off from here in the sunset ))


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 10, 2017)

No way... I will create a thread call 'UntilThen and not before' and I will write my own rules and charge subscriptions.

Ok...maybe no fees but the rule is...

'Thou shall talk about anything under the sun'.

... that is politically correct.

And no tweeting pls.


----------



## angpsi

@UntilThen & @pctazhp, you realize that what you're staking here is my dream of this thread reaching 10000 posts! At 9423 we were so close!

Ok, if you guys call it quits I'll ramble on my own until I make it and the ride off into the sunset. I'll probably be writing about bikes, anyway..!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm starting a new thread call Feliks Audio amps. It will be a consolidation of Expressivo, Elise and Euforia.... and whatever else might come next.

As the main contributor here, I will see to it that owners of Feliks Audio headphone amps will have a place to discuss their amps.

You can continue here till 10,000 but I'll start from one in the new thread.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the new thread started by me. I am not compelling anyone to switch over but if you choose to, you're most welcome. Whatever you choose to do, I'm always contactable for any queries regarding Elise and Euforia. Take care and good luck.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/


----------



## angpsi

Ok, this is getting serious. Ok, for one thing, I'd be all for consolidating all the different threads into one. It's been crazy trying to keep with two threads, let alone the Espressivo thread which was graciously created and kept by @ostewart. But as I said before, at the same time one of the greatest qualities that keep the FA threads going is the quirky camaraderie among the various contributors. So if there's going to be a new thread, it should be created on a calm and sunny day, not upon friction—which, honestly, I don't see where it came from.

That said, I'm starting my own thread called "wives, bikes, and other audiophile ghosts". Or not. Unless someone shows me how to plant an Yggdrasil.


----------



## angpsi

You were quick enough to create the thread before I post this... Oh, well... Another thread to mess with the lousy notification system...


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> So if there's going to be a new thread, it should be created on a calm and sunny day, not upon friction—which, honestly, I don't see where it came from.



There's no friction. This has been a long time coming. This is as sunny a day as any others. A consolidated thread is the way to go. Lukasz told me that I am obviously a lover of Feliks Audio amps. He's right.

Anyway this is my last post here and in the other Elise thread.


----------



## angpsi

Then I graciously offer you the title: "Wives, bikes, and other audiophile ghosts: a consolidation of Feliks Audio amps impressions". As long as you allow @Tunkejazz and myself to write rounds around our life owning an FA amp. This way I believe it would complement nicely the accumulated knowledge here and on the Euforia thread, leaving room for more extended ventures into other gear and further comparisons—no worries about derailing the thread, in a way.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Then I graciously offer you the title: "Wives, bikes, and other audiophile ghosts: a consolidation of Feliks Audio amps impressions". As long as you allow @Tunkejazz and myself to write rounds around our life owning an FA amp. This way I believe it would complement nicely the accumulated knowledge here and on the Euforia thread, leaving room for more extended ventures into other gear and further comparisons—no worries about derailing the thread, in a way.



I thought that was my last post here... but since you ask I'll comply.

Request granted. You may talk about your wives and kids and bikes and cameras but you cannot talk about your concubines.... that's a no no or the thread will be shut down before it's even started.


----------



## Tim Le

angpsi said:


> @UntilThen & @pctazhp, you realize that what you're staking here is my dream of this thread reaching 10000 posts! At 9423 we were so close!
> 
> Ok, if you guys call it quits I'll ramble on my own until I make it and the ride off into the sunset. I'll probably be writing about bikes, anyway..!



Looks like I'm going to get a bike and get to 10k with you


----------



## angpsi

Tim Le said:


> Looks like I'm going to get a bike and get to 10k with you


Deal.


----------



## Oskari

PCT, do come back when you feel like it.


----------



## connieflyer

What can I say. We had a very good run one of the strongest most interesting threads here on head-fi. We managed to assemble a very strong core of like-minded individuals that enjoyed music Above All Else. We shared stories we share music we shared each other's lives and we shared our amps and our experiences with them. It is a sad Day when something like this happens the dying of the light is never easy. What we have here is very special if it can be replicated that's great but I'm afraid that the Felix amp group will no longer be what it was without Mainstays from the old threads. I wish the new tread good luck and I mourn the death of this one. It was one of those things that you look forward to you'd get away from the thread for one or two days and you'd have pages to go through and you hated it and you loved it there was so much, commaraderie and it was very evident. We were always amongst the highest viewed thread here. I don't know if there's anything that can be done to salvage this thread but we can try to push it over $10,000 even if it's just nonsense posts just to bring her across the finish line. What about it fellas are you willing to give it a try?


----------



## Oskari

I'll keep harassing any and all Elise (+ Euforia) threads!


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> What can I say. We had a very good run one of the strongest most interesting threads here on head-fi. We managed to assemble a very strong core of like-minded individuals that enjoyed music Above All Else. We shared stories we share music we shared each other's lives and we shared our amps and our experiences with them. It is a sad Day when something like this happens the dying of the light is never easy. What we have here is very special if it can be replicated that's great but I'm afraid that the Felix amp group will no longer be what it was without Mainstays from the old threads. I wish the new tread good luck and I mourn the death of this one. It was one of those things that you look forward to you'd get away from the thread for one or two days and you'd have pages to go through and you hated it and you loved it there was so much, commaraderie and it was very evident. We were always amongst the highest viewed thread here. I don't know if there's anything that can be done to salvage this thread but we can try to push it over $10,000 even if it's just nonsense posts just to bring her across the finish line. What about it fellas are you willing to give it a try?


Obviously I'm in. Posting this to up the thread count. Hah!


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> I'll keep harassing any and all Elise (+ Euforia) threads!


Surely, for us newbies you're like the tube guru here. Only I've reached such a level of rendering with the GEC6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w that I don't know where to go from here.


----------



## UntilThen

Oskari said:


> I'll keep harassing any and all Elise (+ Euforia) threads!



And I'll keep harassing you....

@pctazhp ... know that I do not hold anything against you. So stay away a while and then come back or I'll press the nuke button.

On hindsight, it's a good thing. The new thread links everything together..... the 3 FA amps.


----------



## connieflyer

under 600 we can and should do it, give it our best shot!


----------



## connieflyer

now this is what i am talking about.


----------



## connieflyer

of course the message was the same waaaayyyy back then with Sly


----------



## angpsi

Guys, I don't know if you noticed but there's a riot going on with Amazon Prime day deals!


----------



## angpsi

@UntilThen, there's a pair of KEF LS50 waiting for you right there! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EPDMDZ8/ref=asc_df_B00EPDMDZ85049040


----------



## angpsi

In other news, a chip broke off the base of my Sylvania 6sn7w. What do I use to glue it in? Anything more subtle besides crazy glue?


----------



## Aornic

And it's here! 

First impressions of the stock configuration were positive, but it's this Mullard 6080 and Ken Rad combo that is blowing me away. Using ZMF Atticus, Eikon and Focal Utopia. 

The sound has so much depth to it, and is very impactful - which I really enjoy. There is a little hum, which is more noticeable on the Utopia, but it's not all that much - and can't be heard during most music. 










I find this combination to be very powerful sounding, impactful, fast and retaining of a euphonic "tube" sound without being overly bloated or too warm.


----------



## whirlwind

Aornic said:


> And it's here!
> 
> First impressions of the stock configuration were positive, but it's this Mullard 6080 and Ken Rad combo that is blowing me away. Using ZMF Atticus, Eikon and Focal Utopia.
> 
> ...




Wow, must be some killer bass with the Atticus & Eikon with those tubes.....I will be getting one of those cans at the end of the year, congrats.

Do you prefer the Atticus or the Eikon....I am torn


----------



## Aornic

whirlwind said:


> Wow, must be some killer bass with the Atticus & Eikon with those tubes.....I will be getting one of those cans at the end of the year, congrats.
> 
> Do you prefer the Atticus or the Eikon....I am torn



Overall the Eikon but I reach for both quite often. Daily driver is Utopia though.


----------



## angpsi

How does the Elise fare against Utopia? Obviously a mismatch in terms of $$$


----------



## Aornic

angpsi said:


> How does the Elise fare against Utopia? Obviously a mismatch in terms of $$$


A bit of haze but a very engaging sound nonetheless.


----------



## angpsi

Aornic said:


> A bit of haze but a very engaging sound nonetheless.


Perhaps you should try the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w, these are monsters of resolution. Honestly, the sound coming out of my HD600 reminds me so much of my (ruthless) ATCs!


----------



## Aornic (Jul 12, 2017)

Upon further switching around, I've found that I really do not prefer the stock power tube or the GE6AS7GA provided by the seller. I'm glad I took @UntilThen 's earlier advice and bought these Mullard 6080's! They're so much faster, clearer and dynamic than stock or GE.

Edit: the reason I do not prefer them is because I find the bass to be rather uncontrolled on both, especially on stock. I'd even go so far as to say as they sound a bit flabby. The Mullards, by comparison, are both more controlled and fast.


----------



## Tim Le

angpsi said:


> Obviously I'm in. Posting this to up the thread count. Hah!



See you both at the finish line!


----------



## Tim Le

Aornic said:


> Upon further switching around, I've found that I really do not prefer the stock rectifier or the GE6AS7GA provided by the seller. I'm glad I took @UntilThen 's earlier advice and bought these Mullard 6080's! They're so much faster, clearer and dynamic than stock or GE.
> 
> Edit: the reason I do not prefer them is because I find the bass to be rather uncontrolled on both, especially on stock. I'd even go so far as to say as they sound a bit flabby. The Mullards, by comparison, are both more controlled and fast.



Do you have Tung Sol 5998's to compare them to by any chance?


----------



## Aornic

Tim Le said:


> Do you have Tung Sol 5998's to compare them to by any chance?


I don't. Just picked up some RCA 7n7's however, an converters, based on the recommendation of Zach from ZMF.


----------



## Tim Le

Aornic said:


> I don't. Just picked up some RCA 7n7's however, an converters, based on the recommendation of Zach from ZMF.



The price on those is very reasonable! Let us know how it sounds


----------



## UntilThen

Aornic said:


> Upon further switching around, I've found that I really do not prefer the stock rectifier or the GE6AS7GA provided by the seller. I'm glad I took @UntilThen 's earlier advice and bought these Mullard 6080's! They're so much faster, clearer and dynamic than stock or GE.
> 
> Edit: the reason I do not prefer them is because I find the bass to be rather uncontrolled on both, especially on stock. I'd even go so far as to say as they sound a bit flabby. The Mullards, by comparison, are both more controlled and fast.



Glad you like the Mullard 6080. They are indeed tighter, less wooly and pretty dynamic.

If you like Mullard 6080, you will probably like Tung Sol 5998 more.

I will be doing a detailed write up on the major 6as7 / 6080 tubes in the new Feliks Audio tube amp thread. It will be where I will be posting from here on.

I do not want to be posting across several threads anymore. Just makes it impossible to find anything.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Glad you like the Mullard 6080. They are indeed tighter, less wooly and pretty dynamic.
> 
> If you like Mullard 6080, you will probably like Tung Sol 5998 more.
> 
> ...


Not trying to get you writing in this thread anymore, but against the GEC 6080 I thought the TS 5998 were adding a lot of reverbation, which made the music sound almost artificial. Granted I was driving them with the TS 6sn7, so I owe them a second audition matched with my Sylvania sets. But I think overall that I appreciate the tighter weightier time of the 6080 better.

This said, I fully agree that the TS 5998 is an awesome tier one tube. I'm just talking about minute details here.


----------



## angpsi

My favorite combos so far:

GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w baffles me. It's the most significant audition and the best I've ever heard coming from Elise. Weighty, analytical, renders everything with authority. They make the HD600 sing like ATC SCM20sl. Anyone who's heard what I'm talking about knows this is a significant achievement. Or else, just read the reviews.
Mullard 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7wgt. _Very_ gutsy sound and a distinct sound signature. I fare it below the first combo but it's really good. Obviously I can mix and match to obtain characteristics closer to my reference signature by substituting any part of this combo but this is a dish of its own. Lovely upon different circumstances.
Tung-Sol 5998 / Tung-Sol 6sn7. My smokey jazz set. _Extremely_ enjoyable at that. Truth be told, I haven't experimented a lot with these so they could be worth a lot more. However I don't see them adding to my reference signature.
Damn, I just wrote my first ever consolidated review on a dying thread! Feels as if I should receive a degree but there's no one to award it!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Damn, I just wrote my first ever consolidated review on a dying thread! Feels as if I should receive a degree but there's no one to award it!



LOL this is so funny it make me post one more time here.

Hahahaha.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 12, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Not trying to get you writing in this thread anymore, but against the GEC 6080 I thought the TS 5998 were adding a lot of reverbation, which made the music sound almost artificial. Granted I was driving them with the TS 6sn7, so I owe them a second audition matched with my Sylvania sets. But I think overall that I appreciate the tighter weightier time of the 6080 better.
> 
> This said, I fully agree that the TS 5998 is an awesome tier one tube. I'm just talking about minute details here.


As promised, I'm auditioning the TS 5998 with the Sylvania 6sn7w.

The reverberation effect is quite evident but the sound can be very alluring because of it. Less monitor, more beautification. It's lovely with piano tracks. To be fair, I think this effect is a more general characteristic of the 6as7g (i.e. ST shaped glass). The stock Svetlana 6N13S definitely do it, but hardly with the authority of the Tung-Sol 5998.If you got $200 to spend, a pair would definitely be a worthy addition to one's collection.

This also hints toward a glimpse of what the GEC A1836 may be able to do—which, according to all indications, could be the real Schiit!


----------



## canthearyou

I'm sorry if this has been covered already, but what changes warrant to higher cost of the 2017 model Elise?


----------



## angpsi (Jul 12, 2017)

canthearyou said:


> I'm sorry if this has been covered already, but what changes warrant to higher cost of the 2017 model Elise?



#EDIT: my mistake: thought you were asking about the Euforia! My apologies! See UT's comment, besides he's the one who actually heard the upgraded Elise and he even did it against the Euforia.

Bigger and better transformer, silver wiring, better capacitors. Redesigned noise cancelling circuitry and standard Psvane UK6sn7 tubes. Some of the upgrades have trickled down to the Elise, hence the somewhat inflated price over the old model. Still, I think the biggest change is the trafo and the noise cancelling circuitry. As far as I can recall, I think the trafo is made in house or by some other specialist by hand. Not such a case for the Elise. This alone is a significant change.


----------



## UntilThen

Angelo he's asking about changes to 2017 Elise model, not Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

Canthearyou, the changes to 2017 Elise model are detailed on the Felik Audio website.

Perhaps you are asking why is there a significant price increase.

I can think of 3 reasons:-

1. Elise started off priced very low. Most agree they are worthy of a $1000 price tag.

2. Main changes are noise reduction and better heat handling. Both important to an already good amp.

3. Inflation. Price dont remain stagnant over the years. Look at the competitors prices. They go up as well.

That's my 3 cents contribution here. Angelo will pay me that.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Angelo he's asking about changes to 2017 Elise model, not Euforia.


Oh, sorry - edited to reflect the mistake.


----------



## connieflyer

Nice review on your Recollections of the 6080 tube set those do sound quite nice the wb's are some of my favorite tubes along with the gec 6080 they have a life all their own as far as the 59.98 that's another classic I'll have to throw those back in and listen to them again problem is I'm getting too many good sounding combinations and I spend too much time changing tubes, such a problem to have. And Angela on this dying thread which doesn't really show signs of dying you can be the new in-house reviewer house that great job!


----------



## canthearyou

When I was looking at the Elise a while back I believe it was $650. Then word of the new model(Euphoria) was on the way. I decided to wait and see what it was about. After it's release I realized it was too expensive for me. Then all of a sudden the Elise is more money and the only thing I read to be different is "noise-cancelling construction".


----------



## angpsi

canthearyou said:


> When I was looking at the Elise a while back I believe it was $650. Then word of the new model(Euphoria) was on the way. I decided to wait and see what it was about. After it's release I realized it was too expensive for me. Then all of a sudden the Elise is more money and the only thing I read to be different is "noise-cancelling construction".


Upgraded transformer is a big deal though, isn't it?


----------



## angpsi

Btw, what's the output of the Euforia? Any measurements on that?


----------



## canthearyou

angpsi said:


> Upgraded transformer is a big deal though, isn't it?



Yes it is. I couldn't see that upgrade/update on the Feliks website.


----------



## angpsi

canthearyou said:


> Yes it is. I couldn't see that upgrade/update on the Feliks website.


Man, sorry, I did it again... I was referring to the Euforia... I don't know what's wrong with me!!!


----------



## angpsi

I think there are some people here selling their original Elises, perhaps you may find a good deal second-hand!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Man, sorry, I did it again... I was referring to the Euforia... I don't know what's wrong with me!!!



You spend too much time on my Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> I think there are some people here selling their original Elises, perhaps you may find a good deal second-hand!



Ha I was about to suggest this to you Canthearyou but Angelo had a bright spark moment.

If I were you, Canthearyou, I would ask here if anyone wants to sell their Elise. Those with Euforia will sell their Elise at pre updated price.


----------



## angpsi

@canthearyou, just to make it up to you here are some active ads depending on your flavor:

EU version: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/sale-elise-by-feliks-audio.854727/
US version: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-elise.846879/
UK version: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/elise-amp-feliks-audio-with-bonus-ken-rad-tubes.854379/


----------



## UntilThen

I didn't even have to advertise. Mr Ross just message me to buy my 'new' Elise and half of my tubes collection.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> I didn't even have to advertise. Mr Ross just message me to buy my 'new' Elise and half of my tubes collection.


But you're UT, this actually makes sense!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> But you're UT, this actually makes sense!



Yup my Elise has my personal signature on it.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> @canthearyou, just to make it up to you here are some active ads depending on your flavor:
> 
> EU version: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/sale-elise-by-feliks-audio.854727/
> US version: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-elise.846879/
> UK version: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/elise-amp-feliks-audio-with-bonus-ken-rad-tubes.854379/



Omg I know all these 3 persons. There were my disciples. Why are they selling their Shaolin manuscripts?

@richard89  what are you upgrading to? You need to talk to me. I have the answers for you.


----------



## Aornic

*I wrote this for my Discord chatroom, thought I'd copy it here.
*
- A/B'ing between Lyr 2 with Reflectors and Mullard 6080/Ken Rad Elise
- the former is definitely more precise and has more air
- the latter has a bigger sound, and sounds more natural
- at the sacrifice of some detail
- trumpets sound "live"
- It's like going between a precise studio recording and a live setting
- Using Utopia
- for the comparison
- Elise adds body to the Utopia's sound, not that it's thin by default but it manages to regardless
- Now, with the stock power tubes - this body comes with a highly undesirable (to my ears) weight to the midbass which is flabby and imprecise(edited)
- Mullard 6080 is more dynamic, fast and controlled in this aspect
- So whatever change is made does not have too much trade-off, besides the softer treble and more reverb-y sound overall
- Will switch out driver tubes soon (back to stock) to see what the Ken Rad tubes actually do, because most of the character I have heard so far have come from the Mullard 6080 power tubes(edited)
- The Elise, at least with this configuration, has a very new (to me) characteristic - it can emphasize certain things in the mix that weren't highlighted before
- I touched on this yesterday with the Fleetwood Mac _Dreams_ synth example
- But it's really noticeable
- On a song like _Nightcall_ by Kavinsky - for the first time I noticed that the chugging guitar line is actually a loop because there is a slight change in the 4th beat that is very precisely reproduced throughout the track
- The stage width is more intimate than the Lyr 2 with reflectors
- Ok stock driver tubes
- are so boomy
- negates a lot of the work the Mullard 6080 is doing
- Tung Sol 6SN7: too much thump, boomy. Surprising how it can do this to a Utopia.
- Really prefer Ken Rad.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 12, 2017)

Hi @Aornic, just a few pointers out of my own mileage since I first got the Elise in December (therefore I'm barely touching base here):

Haven't heard the Tung Sol reissues, but most people agree they are sub-par compared to what the Elise can do with other drivers. FA 'upgrades' these drivers with the Psvane, which is what I got when I bought the amp. Until the first brigade got their Euforias I was probably the only one to have the Psvane. I thought they were a wonderful complement to the Svetlana sound, with lots of air and detail. So did Lukasz from Felids Audio (personal communication).
After a significant spending spree mostly with flavor-of-the-day non–sanctioned tubes such as the EL11 and EL12 I realised that the Elise could do a lot more than stock sound—a veritable testbed for different combinations. However I remained unaware of it's true potential until my latest acquisitions which I described some posts ago.
If you think the Mullard are special, I'd love to be there if you changed with the GEC. I know I was really proud of my Mullard until the GEC got the power seat. I never looked back. Same goes for the Tung–Sol 5998; amazing at what they do, but they're no GEC. Considering the type of qualities you're looking for in your notes, I feel obligated to point this out.
Same goes for the Sylvania 6sn7w. They cannot be beaten for what they do. They're punchy, fast, crazy good, and a veritable microscope for details! I don't know about Ken–Rad, but I'd love to be there if you changed for the Syl. I got Sylvania 6sn7wgt, Tung–Sol 6sn7, and of course the Psvane; but hardly any of these compares to what the Sylvania 6sn7w can do.
I understand yours is meant to be a personal take on the Elise (as well as is mine, probably), but all in all the Elise is a true chameleon when it comes to tube rolling. And this characteristic is absolutely more pronounced the 'better' the tubes are. Newcomers to Elise should definitely take into consideration the consolidated knowledge in the first post of this thread (after all, we _are_ hitting for 10.000 posts, aren't we?). I know _I_ wanted to carve my own path but this way my journey quickly grew into a very pricey diversion! In the end, the tubes nominated as 'best' by common consensus were indeed the best ones. And it's truly mind–blowing how much the sound coming out of the Elise may change with these tubes in play.

As always, YMMV according to your ears and gear, only—out of my own experience—I don't really think so! 
Best of luck with your review,
A.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 12, 2017)

Angelo well done. You did me proud. 

I agree with all you said. You are indeed picking up real fast.

Glad you highlight the Sylvania 6sn7w and Gec 6080. It is one of my fav combination. Only one of. Swap in Bendix 6080wb or Gec 6as7g or Tung Sol 5998 and they are also my fav combinations. These tubes are expensive but they have got class tonally.

Now I shall leave you to get to 10000 while I go back to my thread and I dont watch the post count. It matters the least to me. 

Cheers
UT


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Angelo well done. You did me proud.
> 
> I agree with all you said. You are indeed picking up real fast.
> 
> ...


Thanks UT! Btw, is the Sylvania 6sn7gt / vt231 worth my trouble?


----------



## UntilThen

Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231 bad boys 2 or 3 holes black glass are worth the trouble but will hurt your pocket as much as it hurts with the 6sn7w.

However go for it if you want to sample the best tubes for Elise.

Be careful though because before you know it, you would have spend more on tubes than the price of a new 2017 Elise.

Remember a nice dac will make a very significant difference for headphone listening and for speakers. More than any tubes can. I am not brand bias. There are many good dacs out there now of varying prices.


----------



## UntilThen

Also I can think of no better headphone to evaluate tubes than the hd800 or T1. Likewise if you feed in a Yggy or Holo Spring Level 3, you will hear everything in your tubes and Elise....

and I mean EVERYTHING.


----------



## UntilThen

That is if you want to listen to your tubes. If you just want to listen to music then it dont matter that much. 

I know I know this debate about listening to music with your gear or listening to your gear with your music, is really a play on words.

The truth is both gear and music matters otherwise why would we bother coming here to Head-Fi. We could have just gone to the Apple store.


----------



## UntilThen

See if you get me started here again, your count will hit 20000 and you wont be able to search for anything anymore.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 12, 2017)

So do me a favour. Sell everything and buy a Sennheiser Orpheus HE1 together with the granite amp and a Chord Dave.

If you do that, I bet you your hit count here will hit 100,000.

And I will come to Greece and visit you for 3 months.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 12, 2017)

Sennheiser Orpheus is only priced at $65000 so that's affordable. Plus a Chord Dave at AUD$17800.

That is still cheaper than a world class sailing boat right? So get your priorities right.

Get the Orpheus and Dave..... and give me the boat.


----------



## Tim Le

So I've been using TS 5998 almost exclusively as my power tubes for the last month or so. I find that a lot of the popular driver tubes (ken-rad vt-231, RCA vt-231, sylvania vt-231) have a built in reverb effect to them (think big concert hall), which makes them sound good with certain combinations. However, when you pair them with TS 5998, which also has a huge reverb effect, it becomes too much for my ears.

Out of all the driver tubes I've combined with my TS 5998, my favorite pair is currently Sylvania 6sn7gtb (can be had for $5-$10 each). It just goes to show that synergy is often more important than combining very expensive tubes 

For a lot of you newer Elise members, the Foton 6sn7 tubes are sleepers and can still be had for around $5 a tube (we talked about them for about 5 pages 100 pages back). They don't sound like they cost at all


----------



## Tim Le

UntilThen said:


> Sennheiser Orpheus is only priced at $65000 so that's affordable. Plus a Chord Dave at AUD$17800.
> 
> That is still cheaper than a world class sailing boat right? So get your priorities right.
> 
> Get the Orpheus and Dave.



Haha you can get another deck on top of your deck for that much!


----------



## UntilThen

If you find the Ken Rad and 5998 too much for your ears, the Fotons are quite similar in effect too. Strong on bass but quite coarse.

Fotons are really just Fotons. I dont mind them but they dont stand out. It really boils down to how critically you want to listen to your music.


----------



## UntilThen

Tim Le said:


> Haha you can get another deck on top of your deck for that much!



Double decker?

I haven't even started on the single deck. 

Oh I feel so guilty now..... this hobby is really bad.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 12, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231 bad boys 2 or 3 holes black glass are worth the trouble but will hurt your pocket as much as it hurts with the 6sn7w.
> 
> However go for it if you want to sample the best tubes for Elise.
> 
> ...


Two pairs were auctioned for about $50/pair. Not NOS though. In the end I decided to save my money. Got a good deal on a Mimby so I'll sample the multibit sound in return. Can't afford an Yggy, nor Dave for that matter, and the boat is my Father–in–law's so I can't sell that either!


----------



## angpsi (Jul 12, 2017)

Tim Le said:


> So I've been using TS 5998 almost exclusively as my power tubes for the last month or so. I find that a lot of the popular driver tubes (ken-rad vt-231, RCA vt-231, sylvania vt-231) have a built in reverb effect to them (think big concert hall), which makes them sound good with certain combinations. However, when you pair them with TS 5998, which also has a huge reverb effect, it becomes too much for my ears.
> 
> Out of all the driver tubes I've combined with my TS 5998, my favorite pair is currently Sylvania 6sn7gtb (can be had for $5-$10 each). It just goes to show that synergy is often more important than combining very expensive tubes
> 
> For a lot of you newer Elise members, the Foton 6sn7 tubes are sleepers and can still be had for around $5 a tube (we talked about them for about 5 pages 100 pages back). They don't sound like they cost at all


T-H-A-N-K  Y-O-U !!! Omg someone call this sound for what it is! Today I spent the whole day auditioning the TS 5998 and now I'm listening to the Mullard 6080; all auditions done through my ruthless microscope, errrr.... I mean using the Sylvania 6sn7w as drivers!  So it turns out that the Tung–Sol 5998 can be really good when the sound is too straightforward, e.g. those Blue Note Rudy van Gelder type of recordings where everything sounds like one layer laying in front of you. On the other hand, with good three–dimensional recordings or hard hitting music it almost sounded... errr... "layered"? (ok, I meant artificially enhanced) Perhaps UT is right, I do like a monitor sound. But I also like my smokey jazz with Tung–Sol 5998 / Tung–Sol 6sn7. Makes me wonder about the TS black round plate 6sn7gt.

The Mullard was a nice return to a more tight sound signature, albeit it's not GEC. Again, UT called it: it's [upper] middle class, but it's not royalty. Oddly enough, one album that makes me long for the GEC is "Blondie" by Blondie (Tidal link here, track 11 makes my heart fold); this young adorable punkie-hip Debbie and her friends are rocking hard, and no other combination in my inventory apart from the GEC / Sylvania seems to do them justice! Dedicated!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Got a good deal on a Mimby so I'll sample the multibit sound in return. Can't afford an Yggy, nor Dave for that matter, and the boat is my Father–in–law's so I can't sell that either!



You sure you don't want this deal breaker????????

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-dac-1-750.854965/#post-13596065


----------



## angpsi (Jul 12, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> You sure you don't want this deal breaker????????
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-dac-1-750.854965/#post-13596065


"Selling to get a mobile solution (Hugo2)" Hahahaha!!! Where's @hypnos1 when you need him!

Apart from this, take any digit out of the four and I'll jump all over it!


----------



## UntilThen

It's all preferences and a preconceived mind.

At the Sydney 2017 Meet, the owner of Minidisc listened to his Focal Utopia on my Euforia and said it's too tubey. 

I on the other hand, listen to his MrSpeaker Ether Flow C with his Chord Hugo TT and said it's all bones - there's no meat.

You see the 2 different views? Neither is wrong or right. It's just our preference.


----------



## Liu Junyuan (Jul 13, 2017)

Regarding the Utopia's pairing with Elise, I would think the output impedance of the amp would be too high for the Utopia's relatively low impedance curve to really evaluate the amp correctly. The Utopia really works best from something with 5 ohm OI or less (my amp approaches 3 OI, which is already pushing it). High OI headphones from Senn or Beyer would likely be more ideal for judging the amp's sonic characteristics, and, for that matter, tube pairings, IMO.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> "Selling to get a mobile solution (Hugo2)" Hahahaha!!! Where's @hypnos1 when you need him!
> 
> Apart from this, take any digit out of the four and I'll jump all over it!



Yup but when he buys the Hugo 2, he would want to sell it for the Chord Dave.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> It's all preferences and a preconceived mind.
> 
> At the Sydney 2017 Meet, the owner of Minidisc listened to his Focal Utopia on my Euforia and said it's too tubey.
> 
> ...


Or you can be Currawong and have everything!


----------



## angpsi

Liu Junyuan said:


> Regarding the Utopia's pairing with Elise, I would think the output impedance of the amp would be too high for the Utopia's relatively low impedance curve to really evaluate the amp correctly. The Utopia really works best from something with 5 ohm OI or less. High OI headphones from Senn or Beyer would likely be more ideal for judging the amp's sonic characteristics, and for thst matter tube pairings, IMO.


Well said, crazy no-one came up with this before!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Or you can be Currawong and have everything!



Now the thread is really coming alive. I don't think you need my help anymore to get to 10,000. It's time to go to work.


----------



## angpsi

@Liu Junyuan, you're post #9500!!! Double thanks!!!


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Now the thread is really coming alive. I don't think you need my help anymore to get to 10,000. It's time to go to work.


Hah, here it's past midnight and I'm still at the office! Thank God for the Elise!


----------



## richard89 (Jul 12, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Omg I know all these 3 persons. There were my disciples. Why are they selling their Shaolin manuscripts?
> 
> @richard89  what are you upgrading to? You need to talk to me. I have the answers for you.



@UntilThen, right now I've traded the Elise for the Yulong A18, D18, and U18 combo, and I enjoy it, but it's still a little bright, has some glare in at some frequencies. Alot less detail compared to the Mimby + Elise combo, but the sound stage is more encompassing. As it stands, I'm moving towards the Master 7 as a DAC. Of course I was also considering the Yggdrasil, but have read some reviews and saw that the Yggdrasil does not slam as hard on the bass, so I will have to pass.


----------



## UntilThen

Yggdrasil bass is one of the things that appeal to me. Tight, hard and real. You ought to listen to it if you get a chance. Don't read too much into reviews. Depending on who writes it, they are all over the place.


----------



## richard89 (Jul 13, 2017)

It would be great if I had them side by side, but I've read comparisons from an owner who has both, and for now, I'm saving up, with favor towards a Master 7 for the time being.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 13, 2017)

As much as I am completely sold on Yggdrasil, I don't see why everyone should have the same DAC.

So yeah by all means go for the Audio Gd Master 7. It's a solid dac too. However why not consider their new flagship?


----------



## connieflyer

Richard89 that should sound pretty good, better than the old Ember days! Although for what the Ember was it was pretty good, plus, it got me to upgrade to this point. Showed me the difference tubes still make in an amp.A big jump from Ember to Elise. Nice to see you are still around, good luck with your purchases, Don


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> In other news, a chip broke off the base of my Sylvania 6sn7w. What do I use to glue it in? Anything more subtle besides crazy glue?


I forgot to answer this. That, actually, should work quite well.


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> I forgot to answer this. That, actually, should work quite well.


Thanks, good to know. Now, if only I can manage not to make a mess... I hate crazy glue!


----------



## pctazhp

Just dropping in to say my Elise is now listed for sale: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/fs-feliks-audio-elise.855124/

Hope everyone is doing well


----------



## angpsi (Jul 13, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> Just dropping in to say my Elise is now listed for sale: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/fs-feliks-audio-elise.855124/
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well


Upgrading or venturing off to other endeavors? EDIT, sorry, just saw the contents of your link! Enjoy your Euforia!


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Thanks, good to know. Now, if only I can manage not to make a mess... I hate crazy glue!


If you prefer it, epoxy should work as well.


----------



## richard89

UntilThen said:


> As much as I am completely sold on Yggdrasil, I don't see why everyone should have the same DAC.
> 
> So yeah by all means go for the Audio Gd Master 7. It's a solid dac too. However why not consider their new flagship?



Ehh it's a little too expensive for me. I mean 3.8K? That's insane. 2.4K is insane. I may not even get the Master 7 though. I want right now to just save enough to be able to afford it. Really exciting for me to work right now for audio equipment I'm deciding between.


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> Ehh it's a little too expensive for me. I mean 3.8K? That's insane. 2.4K is insane. I may not even get the Master 7 though. I want right now to just save enough to be able to afford it. Really exciting for me to work right now for audio equipment I'm deciding between.



Nothing is too much. Just hit the buy button without regrets.

Let me tell you Yggdrasil will generate money for you.


----------



## UntilThen

@richard89 ....

Yggdrasil - Euforia - HD800 will rock your teeth and loosen your bowels.

Do yourself a favour. Buy Yggdrasil.


----------



## richard89

Who knows maybe one day, it's actually 3.5K for the HE-7 since I just rechecked the site. 

I would have to audition the Yggdrasil before spending, I don't doubt that it sounds good, but I'm scared that it won't be suitable towards my more bass/bloom inclined taste.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 13, 2017)

If you want more bass bloom just get Yggdrasil Euforia and Dr Beats.

Yggdrasil - La Figaro 339 and Hd650 really kick ass. Very few people know how good this combo sounds. Those who know are too busy listening instead of writing impressions.


----------



## richard89

I wish it were that easy, I wish that there were stores where I could audition equipment, and have money to afford those equipment


----------



## UntilThen

It is all timing for everyone. Took me a while to upgrade too.

It's important to appreciate what you have each step of the way.


----------



## pctazhp

At the risk of disturbing the tranquility of my HeadFi vacation, I want to report that someone read my Elise for-sale post and sent me the following PM:

"How does it sound with the PSVane driver tubes? I have the exact same setup as you, how would you describe the sound and why did you feel the need to upgrade the amp portion?
Thanks!"

This is what I wrote back:

"It’s been 2 or  3 months since I’ve listened to my Elise. Your PM prompted me to try it out with Psvane drivers and stock power tubes. I usually listen to my Euforia every day for at least 2 o3 hours, so I’m very familiar with its SQ by now. In addition, I use top rated tubes with it such as Sylvania 6SN7-WGT drivers and GEC 6080 power tubes.

I was shocked when I first started listening to Elise for the first time in in months. It sounds absolutely wonderful. Makes me kind of wonder why I bothered spending a ton of money on different tubes and the additional money for Euforia. Makes me even question if I actually want to sell it, especially for $550.

I have grown tired of trying to describe differences in sonic signatures of tubes, amps, DACs, etc. I will say that Euforia is more refined than Elise, more “airy” and perhaps more detailed. A little more expansive soundstage. But that doesn’t mean I think Euforia is better. Just different. There is a special stable, solid quality to the Elise sound. It is magical in a very special way.

There are some on the F-A threads who may think my HD800S headphones and Bimby DAC are not top performers and that could prevent me from properly comparing the 2 amps. I don’t think so, but who knows)))) Right now I don’t want to stop listening to Elise )))) "


----------



## connieflyer

What a guy disturbing his vacation just to come back and give us his take on what music sounds like to him on his ancient ears. well thank you for the information and I must say that my Euphoria amp is much quieter than your Elise amp. Mainly because after the blown fuse I get nothing. Fuses should arrive in a few days I'm going to cry for a while now. Oh pity me. I always thought at least sounded fine I like oforia better but then there's the trade-off how much is better worth. Considering how much money I've spent since I bought the Elise  I kind of wish I would have invested that money and a new Jaguar! You live and you learn. They both sound very good. My advice to all users go out and buy yourself some extra fuses for your amplifiers spent two hours looking locally for them could not find anything. Had to order them online from a company in New York. Craziness!


----------



## Tim Le

pctazhp said:


> At the risk of disturbing the tranquility of my HeadFi vacation, I want to report that someone read my Elise for-sale post and sent me the following PM:
> 
> "How does it sound with the PSVane driver tubes? I have the exact same setup as you, how would you describe the sound and why did you feel the need to upgrade the amp portion?
> Thanks!"
> ...



So true.

After a certain point, this hobby becomes an effort to pursue that minuscule percentage of improvement. I find that more often than not, that perceived improvement is just a personal preference towards a certain sound signature. In a double blind test between the Elise and Euforia, there would probably be people that preferred either.


----------



## mordy

pctazhp said:


> At the risk of disturbing the tranquility of my HeadFi vacation, I want to report that someone read my Elise for-sale post and sent me the following PM:
> 
> "How does it sound with the PSVane driver tubes? I have the exact same setup as you, how would you describe the sound and why did you feel the need to upgrade the amp portion?
> Thanks!"
> ...


Hi pct,

Did you secretly upgrade the Elise?


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I must say that my Euphoria amp is much quieter than your Elise amp. Mainly because after the blown fuse I get nothing.



Such an insightful observation. Now I know why I have been missing this thread!!!


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi pct,
> 
> Did you secretly upgrade the Elise?



No it's my January, 2016 issue. Psvane drivers that came with Euforia, and original power tubes that came with Elise that I finally found after sending out an All Points Bulletin to the human inhabitants of my apartment. Dare I try these tubes in my Euforia????


----------



## pctazhp

I realize this is highly unlikely, but is it possible F-A actually knows what it is doing when it choose tubes to sell with its amps????

PS. As usual, nothing I say should be taken seriously. Just trying to advance the post count during this vacation from my vacation.


----------



## Tim Le

pctazhp said:


> I realize this is highly unlikely, but is it possible F-A actually knows what it is doing when it choose tubes to sell with its amps????
> 
> PS. As usual, nothing I say should be taken seriously. Just trying to advance the post count during this vacation from my vacation.



Maybe they just pick the most tantalizing tubes  Never heard them before, but they look so darn good.

Last post adding to the post count before I head off to work!


----------



## pctazhp

Also I should mention that I have been running Euforia since the beginning and am now running Elise with the Special CF Approved power cable, which I'm sure makes a HUGE difference !!!!


----------



## pctazhp

Tim Le said:


> Last post adding to the post count before I head off to *work*!



You do realize that's a 4-letter word???


----------



## UntilThen

Liu Junyuan said:


> Regarding the Utopia's pairing with Elise, I would think the output impedance of the amp would be too high for the Utopia's relatively low impedance curve to really evaluate the amp correctly. The Utopia really works best from something with 5 ohm OI or less (my amp approaches 3 OI, which is already pushing it). High OI headphones from Senn or Beyer would likely be more ideal for judging the amp's sonic characteristics, and, for that matter, tube pairings, IMO.



LJ, you are probably right but nothing I heard of the Utopia on both Euforia and La Figaro 339 at the Sydney Meet 2017 where I brought both amps, suggest that it is not sounding good. However there could be more ideal amps for the Utopia and even some hard to drive planar magnetics, which I am thinking of getting.

Hence my getting a Ragnarok to accompany my Euforia. That way I could cover most bases. You will never cover all base but 'most' would be good enough. I'll let Euforia work with the 'ideal' headphones and the Rag the others including speakers.

Enjoy music with your gear. 

Cheers
UT


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## richard89 (Jul 14, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> It is all timing for everyone. Took me a while to upgrade too.
> 
> It's important to appreciate what you have each step of the way.



I agree, I kind of regret trading Elise because I had a great setup, but I had an ear infection which I mistook for tinnitus and got too giddy looking for a trade/sell. My original plan was to get the Yggdrasil, then Euforia and keep the Elise as a collectors item for memories. Anyways I'm pretty excited to move forward to new territory. Happy listening, and Cheers.


----------



## UntilThen

Euforia certainly sounds better than Elise. I agree with Lukasz assessment, that it's a few leagues above Elise. Lukasz is just echoing his dad, Henryk opinion and I trust Henryk's ears.

When my upgraded Elise came back, I did a thorough test of it with Euforia. It is quite clear to my ears which has better euphony and sounded more holographic and musical. There is a pureness and clarity to Euforia and Elise is nearly there but not quite.

It is always true in Head-Fi that when you go up the chain, the last 10% will cost heaps more. The question is whether you want to pay heaps more for the 10%. Many on Head-Fi here will says 'yes'. 

I have always been explicit about Elise. It's a great sounding tube amp. When it was first introduced at $499, it's unbelievable but then Feliks Audio was just starting to make itself known here on Head-Fi, so the introductory price. From there it jump to $649, which is what I bought mine for. Then it went up to $699. In the latest incarnation, it jump to $849 with standard drivers or $999 with Psvane tubes and improved noise cancellation and heat handling.

Psvane tubes are more warm and lush sounding. At the same time, it is sufficiently clear to never muddy the tone. Pairing with the stock power tubes Svetlana 6h13c is a compromise. Swap in even a Mullard 6080 and things start to sound a whole lot better. Of course, swap in GEC 6080, Tung Sol 5998, Bendix 6080wb or GEC 6as7g and then it becomes really interesting.

You can also argue why spend so much on expensive tubes for a $849 tube amp. Well, that is up to you. You don't have to. Or you could go tubeless and buy an ss amp.


----------



## UntilThen

richard89 said:


> I agree, I kind of regret trading Elise because I had a great setup, but I had an ear infection which I mistook for tinnitus and got too giddy looking for a trade/sell. My original plan was to get the Yggdrasil, then Euforia and keep the Elise as a collectors item for memories. Anyways I'm pretty excited to move forward to new territory. Happy listening, and Cheers.



Haha.. collector's item. Seriously I was going to do that with my Elise but @Rossliew offered to buy it from me and half of my tubes, including eight EL3Ns !!! That cost me a ton on shipping. !!!

Along with it went

Chatham 6520
Tung Sol 7236
Valvo c3g/s - I will miss this.
Mullard ECC31
Tung Sol 6sn7gtb reissue
Hitachi 6sn7gtb
Single and double adapters for EL3N
Adapters for ECC31
Adapters for c3g
Eight EL3N


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 14, 2017)

One marked difference between Elise and Euforia ( with the same tubes, DAC and headphone) is that Elise sounded leaner. Euforia is more full bodied, has a wider headstage and greater bass slam. It is also clearer and more micro details. These are very evident without even trying to listen hard.

I am sure there are quite a few here who have both Elise and Euforia, will concur with me. It is not imaginary. Certainly no blind test needed.

Lastly, Euforia has a quieter noise floor. It's almost pitch black and noiseless with volume to max and no music playing.


----------



## pctazhp

I certainly didn't come back from my HeadFi vacation to argue with anyone as to what sounds better. For most of us, this is a hobby, which means we do the crazy stuff we do because we have fun doing it. And each of us does it in our own Frank Sinatra way. I spent 35 years as a 2-channel, primarily vinyl based, speaker based audiophile. During much of that time seeking "perfection" and always being interested in some new possibility, was a big part of the hobby for me. The emphasis each of us places on gear vs. music listening differs and can vary widely over time. I don't like making definitive statements of what sounds best, because I know there are so many variables, including personal preference. And I am well aware that I am not immune from the placebo effect. But, on the other hand I have not been shy in sharing my own experiences as to what I like.

When all is said and done, I'm glad I'm where I'm at and don't regret any prior decision. I have learned from each new thing I have tried, and I couldn't change the past even if I wanted to. If I was told that Elise is my last headphone amp and I'll never be able to listen to another amp again, I could enjoy many years (if God cooperates) of happy listening. It does have a special magic to it, but so does Euforia in a somewhat different way - at least to my ears. I do prefer and love my Euforia and hope I can sell my Elise. I should be able to because it is a great deal for a US buyer. F-A charges $150 for the Elise Psvane upgrade, so my $550 asking price (which includes the Psvane drivers) seems pretty reasonable to me. But I realize other Elise owners have bought Euforia and may be competing with me to sell their Elise.

For me, I'm pretty sure Euforia is my end-game amp. I don't have the same drive for "perfection" I once had. Actually, now being well ensconced in Old Geezer status, there's a lot of things I don't have any more!!!   I love how my system now sounds, but still think I will upgrade my DAC to Gumby sooner or later. I am tempted about Yggy, but don't think it fits into my plans for the future, and believe that Gumby will serve me well. There are still rumors about a possible Schiit update to Bimby, so if that comes along before I buy a Gumby that could be my end-game DAC.

For decades audiophiles have argued about the law of diminishing returns. I've gotten into some pretty heated arguments on the "science" threads with know-it-all "objectivists" who ignorantly (in my opinion) treat it as an absolute law of nature. To me, it is just something to keep in mind, and each person will make his or her own decisions. I don't feel I need to justify to anyone other than myself or my family how much money I spend on audio, and I certainly don't for a second believe anyone has to justify to me how much they spend.


----------



## mordy (Jul 14, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> One marked difference between Elise and Euforia ( with the same tubes, DAC and headphone) is that Elise sounded leaner. Euforia is more full bodied, has a wider headstage and greater bass slam. It is also clearer and more micro details. These are very evident without even trying to listen hard.
> 
> I am sure there are quite a few here who have both Elise and Euforia, will concur with me. It is not imaginary. Certainly no blind test needed.
> 
> Lastly, Euforia has a quieter noise floor. It's almost pitch black and noiseless with volume to max and no music playing.


Hi UT,

Agree completely on the difference between the Elise and the Euforia - the Euforia has more of everything.
_"Euforia is more full bodied, has a wider headstage and greater bass slam."_


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Agree completely on the difference between the Elise and the Euforia - the Euforia has more of everything.
> _"Euforia is more full bodied, has a wider headstage and greater bass slam."_



Interesting. It may just be different meanings assigned to words, but I would describe Elise as more full bodied, whereas Euforia is more "airy". Definitely agree about the wider "headstage". Not sure about the bass slam, but HD800S to me is always a little tricky about bass. Just so there is no question, I do prefer Euforia to Elise.To my ears, Euforia is more holographic and 3 dimensional - and overall more organic and closer to what I believe to be live entertainment. But having said that, Elise is a wonderful amp and a wonderful value. 

Anyway, I'm going to resume my vacation from HeadFi and do a lot of "ummmmmming" this weekend to maintain tranquility


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 14, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> Agree completely on the difference between the Elise and the Euforia - the Euforia has more of everything.
> _"Euforia is more full bodied, has a wider headstage and greater bass slam."_



Thank you Mordy.

I rest my case.


----------



## Liu Junyuan (Jul 14, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> LJ, you are probably right but nothing I heard of the Utopia on both Euforia and La Figaro 339 at the Sydney Meet 2017 where I brought both amps, suggest that it is not sounding good. However there could be more ideal amps for the Utopia and even some hard to drive planar magnetics, which I am thinking of getting.
> 
> Hence my getting a Ragnarok to accompany my Euforia. That way I could cover most bases. You will never cover all base but 'most' would be good enough. I'll let Euforia work with the 'ideal' headphones and the Rag the others including speakers.
> 
> ...



For what it's worth, I actually really enjoy the Utopia driven by my 339. But I wouldn't use this headphone to evaluate and describe the amp for a wider audience. It is true there is something odd about the 339's ability to synergize incredibly well with low-impedance planars--for instance, the HE-500--but even then I wouldn't only use that headphone to evaluate the amp.

Yeah, I think having a well-designed SS is not a bad idea if you can afford it. You're going to need to either reterminate your SE cables to XLR or purchase aftermarket ones, since the Rag's SE out is essentially a compromised convenience in comparison to its far superior balanced output. This will also mean you should secure an XLR to 1/4 inch adapter so you can switch to your Euforia.


----------



## UntilThen

This is where I will end. I don't care what Donkey-Kong says:-

Source - Roon on Windows 10 PC / Turntable / CD player
DAC - Yggdrasil
Amps - Euforia / Ragnarok
Headphones - HD800 / @@

where @@ is still being decided.... one of this

Audeze LCD2.2
Fostex TH900 
HiFiman HE-6 
Focal Elear
ZMF Ori
ZMF Atticus

If I find a very good condition HE-6, that would be it.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 14, 2017)

Liu Junyuan said:


> For what it's worth, I actually really enjoy the Utopia driven by my 339, quite a bit. But I wouldn't use this headphone to evaluate and describe the way most people who use the amp find it. There is something odd about the 339's ability and to pair well with the HE-500, a low-impedance planar, but even then I wouldn't only use that headphone to evaluate the amp.



LJ, how about recommending me one of the headphone I list above to compliment my HD800. 

.... and don't tell me it's the HD650 because I already have it and modified.


----------



## UntilThen

Liu Junyuan said:


> but even then I wouldn't only use that headphone to evaluate the amp.



I certainly wasn't using Utopia to evaluate Euforia or La Figaro 339. All I said was it sounded great to me in the short 45 mins session I had with it.

I'm definitely of the opinion that a high impedance headphone is best with an OTL amp such as Euforia or La Figaro 339. Which is why I have HD800, T1 and HD650.


----------



## Liu Junyuan (Jul 14, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> LJ, how about recommending me one of the headphone I list above to compliment my HD800.
> 
> .... and don't tell me it's the HD650 because I already have it and modified.



I edited my quoted post and added a bit on the Rag. Please look back if you don't mind.

From your choices I have only heard, since I own, the HE-6. My sense is that this is the best from your list, but second choice would be Atticus probably. The Atticus seems like an excellent choice because a) it's timbre complements your HD-800 to a tee, b) it thrives on both OTL and SS designs, and c) it is sealed.

I would place the HE-6 I own (I have one from the rarer first batch) on the same level as Utopia and I prefered it to HD800 in my system with the music I listen to. It is full of soul, it is unabashedly macrodynamic, it has incredibly tight and tactile bass, and it resolves on an HD800 level. No high-end headphone can bring me to tears like the HE-6. It is my emotional headphone. It is also more versatile than the HD800 in terms of genre pairings.

HD800 wins in stage and imaging, of course. I regard the HD800 as one my favorite headphones.

With all that said, I am highly intrigued by the Atticus and would personally consider it above the Eikon.

I actually would really like to listen to the Rag, always have. Lucky you.


----------



## UntilThen

Liu Junyuan said:


> Yeah, I think having a well-designed SS is not a bad idea if you can afford it. You're going to need to either reterminate your SE cables to XLR or purchase aftermarket ones, since the Rag's SE out is essentially a compromised convenience in comparison to its far superior balanced output. This will also mean you should secure an XLR to 1/4 inch adapter so you can switch to your Euforia.



Noted. It's what I planned to do. I wil have balance xlr 4pin cable for my HD800 and probably also HD650. Will also have the xlr to 1/4 inch adapter. You read my mind.


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## Liu Junyuan (Jul 14, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> I certainly wasn't using Utopia to evaluate Euforia or La Figaro 339. All I said was it sounded great to me in the short 45 mins session I had with it.
> 
> I'm definitely of the opinion that a high impedance headphone is best with an OTL amp such as Euforia or La Figaro 339. Which is why I have HD800, T1 and HD650.



No, I wasn't referring to you in my original comment, but to that of Aornic.

You have offered plenty of helpful impressions with a variety of transducers. And I think you--and others-- paint a fairly wide canvas so users can get a sense of the amp's characteristics.


----------



## UntilThen

Liu Junyuan said:


> I edited my quoted post and added a bit on the Rag. Please look back if you don't mind.
> 
> From your choices I have only heard, since I own, the HE-6. My sense is that this is the best from your list, but second choice would be Atticus probably. The Atticus seems like an excellent choice because a) it's timbre complements your HD-800 to a tee, b) it thrives on both OTL and SS designs, and c) it is sealed.
> 
> ...



Thank you. I knew you have high regards for the HE-6, which is highly regarded by many too. Now how do I steal your HE-6? 

When the Rag arrives, I will let you know if I'm lucky or not. Who knows, I might hurl it into the swimming pool !!!


----------



## UntilThen

Liu Junyuan said:


> No, I wasn't referring to you in my original comment, but to that of Aornic.
> 
> You have offered plenty of helpful impressions with a variety of transducers. And I think you/-and others-- paint a fairly wide canvas so users can get a sense of the amp's characteristics.



Ah..... thank you LJ. I knew all along we are on the same page. 

No, seriously I value your opinion or I wouldn't ask you for it regarding the headphone.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

UntilThen said:


> Thank you. I knew you have high regards for the HE-6, which is highly regarded by many too. Now how do I steal your HE-6?
> 
> When the Rag arrives, I will let you know if I'm lucky or not. Who knows, I might hurl it into the swimming pool !!!



That's the problem. HE-6 is no longer produced. One of the top misfortunes of this hobby IMO. It is not only incredibly difficult to find an HE-6, but even moreso the superior 4-screw version from the first production run. I got lucky, I guess. It is not for sale!


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 14, 2017)

Liu Junyuan said:


> It is not for sale!



You sure? I will trade my Rag for your HE-6. Now this is high pressure trading !!!


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I certainly didn't come back from my HeadFi vacation to argue with anyone as to what sounds better. For most of us, this is a hobby, which means we do the crazy stuff we do because we have fun doing it. And each of us does it in our own Frank Sinatra way. I spent 35 years as a 2-channel, primarily vinyl based, speaker based audiophile. During much of that time seeking "perfection" and always being interested in some new possibility, was a big part of the hobby for me. The emphasis each of us places on gear vs. music listening differs and can vary widely over time. I don't like making definitive statements of what sounds best, because I know there are so many variables, including personal preference. And I am well aware that I am not immune from the placebo effect. But, on the other hand I have not been shy in sharing my own experiences as to what I like.
> 
> When all is said and done, I'm glad I'm where I'm at and don't regret any prior decision. (...)


Hi Pct, good to see you back here although I can certainly understand the benefits of a much needed hiatus. I also certainly agree how an audiophile may (and in fact should be able to) take a break from his or her nervosa. IMO you're spot on when you say that the hobby quickly becomes a crazy pursuit - for some it may be about "the absolute sound" and for others it may be about the itch to know more about the newer better thing.

But in my case I consider myself fortunate enough to be able to reach a satisfactory level and nest on it for as long as it takes. I was originally surprised when I got this with my stereo chain and I never felt the urge to upgrade even though I knew other setups could do more to my ears and the enjoyment of music. Then again, devil's advocate would say that I just couldn't afford to upgrade - and to be fair this could very well be the case. However, I remember distinctly how I felt when I added the ATC SCM20sl in place of the SCM12 I originally started with, and I promise you I still feel the same way today; namely that I had achieved a sound signature that I enjoy immensely and without remorse even though I am fully aware of how better and pricier systems sound.

When I started with the Elise, it was the same routine all over again. I already knew about the HD600 and read my a$$ off to come to this wonderful piece of an amp. As my reading extended, my budget also heaps from a modest €200 for an O2/Odac to the Espressovo to the Elise to the Elise with Psvane. Then the tube rolling came. At that point I became obsessed with one scary thought: since all this tube rolling mania is 'affordable' by comparison to the stereo chain upgrade, will I be able to stop? At about that time everyone else started raving about their Euforias, so a second question came about: is this tube rolling viable against acutely upgrading the part?

And then the System 6sn7w came, followed by the GEC 6080. And I had my SCM20sl moment: I honestly don't want to change a thing about my setup! Of course a different combination can produce different results but to my ears and for my music this is as good as it needs to be. I keep returning to the combo all the time so much I start thinking about stocking up on these tubes and let go of the others. So it's a very well cooked dish, with a signature I have no reservation to propose to anyone. Stock Svetlana and Psvane had a discernible signature too, remember how I liked it back then and tried to get everyone to try the Psvane? Granted, it's nowhere near the GEC / Sylvania combo but a dish by all accounts. Maybe it's an appetizer!

Overall I don't think that Elise is a lesser amp just because it appears it's less capable in resolution etc. Got €1300 and it's certainly game on; but then I'd have to pitch it against Quad, MicroZOTL etc, not to mention comparably priced solid state amps. At this price point the variety and quality offered is quite baffling. But even with the price upgrade I believe the Elise to be an incredible bargain against the competition. Now, if you take into account the low price that it is fetching second hand, after having experienced what it is capable of doing I most certainly consider it still a bargain.

So good luck with your sale, if I didn't own an Elise already I'd feel fortunate to get it!


----------



## connieflyer

Oh good grief I have had to watch television all night no music if this goes on for more than two more days I'm going to check myself into a mental facility that has headphone treatment. Terrible when you have to sit there and think what do I do now


----------



## angpsi (Jul 14, 2017)

Incidentally, I just got me a Mimby! Let's see how it fares against the Meridian Explorer 2, one of them will have to go in the end.

Also, @UntilThen  if your son (or anyone else) is interested in the Tung-Sol 5998 I might consider letting go.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 14, 2017)

connieflyer said:


> Oh good grief I have had to watch television all night no music if this goes on for more than two more days I'm going to check myself into a mental facility that has headphone treatment. Terrible when you have to sit there and think what do I do now


Hahahaha! Hang in there man, good things come to those who wait! Just, in your case it looks to be fuses!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Also, @UntilThen if your son (or anyone else) is interested in the Tung-Sol 5998 I might consider letting go.



I would advise him against buying anymore tubes. I would like him to buy a gorgeous amp, dac or headphone or all 3 so that when I visit him, I won't want to come home.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Oh good grief I have had to watch television all night no music if this goes on for more than two more days I'm going to check myself into a mental facility that has headphone treatment. Terrible when you have to sit there and think what do I do now



Now you know why I ordered the Ragnarok. Both Euforia and Ragnarok fuses cannot blow at the same time... so I should be ok....

If both blow at the same time, I'd resort to my Bose..... poor me.


----------



## myphone

angpsi, I bought an used microzotl with LPS last week from a headfier. 


Like Euforia, MZ2 is very sensitive to tube rolling. Either 12AT7 or 6SN7 tube has profound effect on sound. Fortunately, I have accumulated many good 12AT7 and 6SN7 over the years.

Euforia is more powerful and versatile in driving high impedance phones (HD800, T1, and HD650). MZ2 is more delicate than Euforia driving HD650. Not enough control for T1 nor HD800. But is wonderful for smaller low impedance phones.


----------



## angpsi

Now, if only I could get these HD600 to loosen up!.... Tried UT's book trick with success but they came back to their original state. Still reluctant to bend the metal band, I want to maintain then in good condition should I want to pass them on in the future.


----------



## UntilThen

I don't want to sound like a snob but the reality is there are better sounding system.... don't kid yourself. What we have isn't Mt Everest.

However.... and this is a big however. What we have is very good at this price point. It's good enough even for me and many others. Do you need to upgrade any further? Sure if you have the money and your interest in Head-Fi is never ending. It's what we do ... when we get this head-fi bug. It's like any other hobby.

Will it get any better than this? You bet. Do we need better? You can complete the statement yourself.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 14, 2017)

myphone said:


> angpsi, I bought an used microzotl with LPS last week from a headfier.
> 
> Like Euforia, MZ2 is very sensitive to tube rolling. Either 12AT7 or 6SN7 tube has profound effect on sound. Fortunately, I have accumulated many good 12AT7 and 6SN7 over the years.
> 
> Euforia is more powerful and versatile in driving high impedance phones (HD800, T1, and HD650). MZ2 is more delicate than Euforia driving HD650. Not enough control for T1 nor HD800. But is wonderful for smaller low impedance phones.


Good to know, thanks! MicroZOTL always intrigued me but I couldn't afford it.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Now, if only I could get these HD600 to loosen up!.... Tried UT's book trick with success but they came back to their original state. Still reluctant to bend the metal band, I want to maintain then in good condition should I want to pass them on in the future.



Believe me it will work. Clamp your HD600 on the box it came in when you are not using it. After 3 months, it will be comfortably loose... my HD650 is now almost as comfortable as my HD800.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 14, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> I don't want to sound like a snob but the reality is there are better sounding system.... don't kid yourself. What we have isn't Mt Everest.
> 
> However.... and this is a big however. What we have is very good at this price point. It's good enough even for me and many others. Do you need to upgrade any further? Sure if you have the money and your interest in Head-Fi is never ending. It's what we do ... when we get this head-fi bug. It's like any other hobby.
> 
> Will it get any better than this? You bet. Do we need better? You can complete the statement yourself.


I thought my elegy before was clear: in my case I'm happy to say yes, at this point I'm fine-tuning rather than looking for better. Of course this doesn't mean I won't be drooling over your newer escapades!


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Believe me it will work. Clamp your HD600 on the box it came in when you are not using it. After 3 months, it will be comfortably loose... my HD650 is now almost as comfortable as my HD800.


Ok, I'll keep at it. I don't really see them going anywhere to be honest, anyway!


----------



## myphone

Because of the recent MZ2 purchase, I read the originally Microzotl tube rolling thread, and found out many quotes in "6SN7 reference thread" were from Microzotl tube rolling thread. 

These quotes could be misleading without the original context, especially when used in different systems. The original thread stated that 6SN7s sounded differently with different phones or 12AT7 even in the same Microzotl amp.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Incidentally, I just got me a Mimby! Let's see how it fares against the Meridian Explorer 2, one of them will have to go in the end.



Just remember the Mimby is a baby Mercedes A180. It will sound good. However the Yggy is a Mercedes S600. Both have the 3-point star. That's all that matters.

As for the Meridian Explorer 2, MQA will die just like SACD, Pono, Betamax and all that came before it. Sell it before it becomes a dinosaur.


----------



## myphone

UntilThen said:


> Just remember the Mimby is a baby Mercedes A180. It will sound good. However the Yggy is a Mercedes S600. Both have the 3-point star. That's all that matters.
> 
> As for the Meridian Explorer 2, MQA will die just like SACD, Pono, Betamax and all that came before it. Sell it before it becomes a dinosaur.



Haha, UT, i have Meridian Explorer 1, used portable with laptop and cellphone. Pono, I use it every day, wonderful standalone portable with Etymotic and Cardas A8 balanced.


----------



## UntilThen

myphone said:


> Haha, UT, i have Meridian Explorer 1, used portable with laptop and cellphone. Pono, I use it every day, wonderful standalone portable with Etymotic and Cardas A8 balanced.



You are not Neil Young I hope.


----------



## UntilThen

Someone wrote this .... 

_I'm so in anticipation of actually holding the H2 in my hands...I feel like a heroin addict waiting for a call from his dealer._

See what happens when head-fi sucks you in deep.


----------



## myphone

UntilThen said:


> You are not Neil Young I hope.



only have one Neil Young song in my entire music collection, preloaded on pono player.


----------



## myphone

Seriously, music is about enjoyment. Audio gears are just tools.

The 2 channel system I still use and enjoy the most is the one I bought about 30 years ago when i was a graduate student (like angpsi?), Audio Research Classic 30 and Spendor SE3/5.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright, it's portable show time !!!

Here's mine. FiiO X5 with E12 amp strapped together and the legendary 160gb iPod classic.


----------



## UntilThen

Seriously I'm a collector too. Like this Sony Walkman. It's still as good as new and still working. Can play CDs on battery and AC. 

I don't touch all these classics anymore though because I only listen to music at home and my head-fi is so much better.


----------



## myphone

UntilThen said:


> Seriously I'm a collector too. Like this Sony Walkman. It's still as good as new and still working. Can play CDs on battery and AC.
> 
> I don't touch all these classics anymore though because I only listen to music at home and my head-fi is so much better.



Nice, UT. I listen to music at work so I could ignore surroundings, coworker included.


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 15, 2017)

And wait for it.... this was bought soon after I migrated to Australia. That's 1988..... omg so nostalgic. Would you believe it? It's still like new and working perfectly, even the twin cassette players. It has twin CD, radio... so high tech for 1988....

I feel so sentimental now. I have not look at this Pioneer all in one system for a long time. I remember I paid $950 for it in 1988. That's a lot of money then.



I am going to set it up in my study now and play it.


----------



## Johnnysound

Please sign me in, my Euforia is #105 ? (I am not sure if that is its serial number).  Ordered it 2 weeks ago after an interesting talk with Lukasz, apart from the published improvements over the Elise, it looks like the Euforia does have a beefier, higher spec toroidal transformer, something not stated in the literature.  And wait a minute, as H1 and UT said, this is not a chinese mass produced trafo, this one is custom made by a specialized firm in Poland (just watch the YouTube clip published by UT)  a country with a long tradition for handmade, top class transformers !  Of course, the trafo does not tell the whole history,  high class Mundorf capacitors and other components add to the whole, and no doubt the revised, low noise power supply circuit is crucial.  But let me tell you, in my experience oversized, high quality power transformers do have a profound effect in the musical presentation.  More relaxed, big, dynamic, faster and etc. etc. All this in theory,  I am patiently waiting for my Euforia to arrive here in Central America, my current post, to say something about the real thing...

And of course,  cheers to all the great friends in the old LD thread:  H1, Mordy, Gibosi, Pztazhp and others, for all their great help and advice in  this journey thru the world of tube audio !!


----------



## UntilThen

Welcome @Johnnysound  your name certainly looks familiar. I am hopping over to the new thread and your welcome to give your impressions there. 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/

Euforia's transformer is indeed a quality transformer and does make a difference in my humble opinion.

Meanwhile I'm about to get some great euphoria with my vintage Pioneer system....


----------



## angpsi

myphone said:


> Haha, UT, i have Meridian Explorer 1, used portable with laptop and cellphone. Pono, I use it every day, wonderful standalone portable with Etymotic and Cardas A8 balanced.


Etys! @myphone you're my guy! I love my Hf3; if I hadn't been sucked into the HD600 / Elise vortex I might have gone all the way with their line! Skull rape though...


----------



## angpsi

myphone said:


> Seriously, music is about enjoyment. Audio gears are just tools.
> 
> The 2 channel system I still use and enjoy the most is the one I bought about 30 years ago when i was a graduate student (like angpsi?), Audio Research Classic 30 and Spendor SE3/5.


Audio Research & Spendor! Definitely my guy, where were you all my life?
And yes, we're quite close, I got into tertiary education in 1991; as an audiophile I'm younger than my Krell, but old enough to still own a Benchmark DAC1 rack mount version!

Ok, I'm 44 years old.


----------



## Johnnysound

UntilThen said:


> Welcome @Johnnysound  your name certainly looks familiar. I am hopping over to the new thread and your welcome to give your impressions there.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/
> 
> ...



Many thanks, UT.   And BTW I am a big fan of Pioneer.  I let to my 18 year son an already battered Pioneer receiver for the boys parties, and they really abused the poor unit at full volume,  leaving it outdoors and all...but it still works, I dont know how.  Built like a tank.

Cheers


----------



## UntilThen

Johnnysound said:


> Many thanks, UT.   And BTW I am a big fan of Pioneer.  I let to my 18 year son an already battered Pioneer receiver for the boys parties, and they really abused the poor unit at full volume,  leaving it outdoors and all...but it still works, I dont know how.  Built like a tank.
> 
> Cheers



After 30 mins with the Pioneer, I took it back to the storeroom and have gone back to Yggy and Euforia with HD800..... and promptly had a lengthy talk with LJ about all things head-fi in the other thread.

Johnny, you will love Euforia. For some reason, you didn't get on board Elise because you were one of the early contributors of the discussion on the previous thread before the launch.


----------



## angpsi

Johnnysound said:


> Please sign me in, my Euforia is #105 ? (I am not sure if that is its serial number).  Ordered it 2 weeks ago after an interesting talk with Lukasz, apart from the published improvements over the Elise, it looks like the Euforia does have a beefier, higher spec toroidal transformer, something not stated in the literature.  And wait a minute, as H1 and UT said, this is not a chinese mass produced trafo, this one is custom made by a specialized firm in Poland (just watch the YouTube clip published by UT)  a country with a long tradition for handmade, top class transformers !  Of course, the trafo does not tell the whole history,  high class Mundorf capacitors and other components add to the whole, and no doubt the revised, low noise power supply circuit is crucial.  But let me tell you, in my experience oversized, high quality power transformers do have a profound effect in the musical presentation.  More relaxed, big, dynamic, faster and etc. etc. All this in theory,  I am patiently waiting for my Euforia to arrive here in Central America, my current post, to say something about the real thing...
> 
> And of course,  cheers to all the great friends in the old LD thread:  H1, Mordy, Gibosi, Pztazhp and others, for all their great help and advice in  this journey thru the world of tube audio !!


 Hi @Johnnysound, just a quick question before you jump over to the other thread:

UT has a YouTube video??? Please, _Please_, give us the link? Unless you're referring to the one where he's showing off his car stereo!


----------



## UntilThen

This one


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> This one



Hahahaha! Truly an amazing video!


----------



## myphone

Angpsi, I notice you have meridian Explore 2. Have you tried using y-USB cable, using external power and typing off power tap at main USB end? Cutting of power from computer has improved all USB DAC I have. One 20000 mah battery full charge lasts 2-3 days with explorer.


----------



## myphone

I have used the cheap no name y-cable so far. Improvements are quite noticeable. All DACs sound Quieter, and smoother.


----------



## angpsi

Sounds interesting. Where can I find details on this tweak? I might give it a go, especially when the mimby arrives. Although I'm not so fond about tweaking stuff I'm thinking about selling afterwards!


----------



## myphone

angpsi said:


> Sounds interesting. Where can I find details on this tweak? I might give it a go, especially when the mimby arrives. Although I'm not so fond about tweaking stuff I'm thinking about selling afterwards!



Could not find the original y-cable link. Here are links to tape off USB data tabs for power only: http://www.instructables.com/id/USB-Condom/. To have data only cable, tape off tab 1 only at black end. Red end is power end.


----------



## myphone

angpsi said:


> Audio Research & Spendor! Definitely my guy, where were you all my life?
> And yes, we're quite close, I got into tertiary education in 1991; as an audiophile I'm younger than my Krell, but old enough to still own a Benchmark DAC1 rack mount version!
> 
> Ok, I'm 44 years old.



 

I learned about Elise last year from a Chinese headphone site (erji.net, believe mostly teans or young adults). "Felix Elise was raved by bunch of rich old uncles at headfi.com".


----------



## angpsi (Jul 15, 2017)

myphone said:


> I learned about Elise last year from a Chinese headphone site (erji.net, believe mostly teans or young adults). "Felix Elise was raved by bunch of rich old uncles at headfi.com".


 Hahaha!
I am literally becoming an uncle in September! Ok, actually my wife's sister is having a baby but being married to my wife makes me an uncle, doesn't it? I don't know about the "rich" part though, perhaps they're referring to UT!...


----------



## angpsi (Jul 15, 2017)

myphone said:


> I learned about Elise last year from a Chinese headphone site (erji.net, believe mostly teans or young adults). "Felix Elise was raved by bunch of rich old uncles at headfi.com".


Btw, what's the big black box behind your Spendor?


----------



## angpsi

myphone said:


> Could not find the original y-cable link. Here are links to tape off USB data tabs for power only: http://www.instructables.com/id/USB-Condom/. To have data only cable, tape off tab 1 only at black end. Red end is power end.


Cool trick, and easy to give it a try. I actually have a y-split USB cable laying around from an external HDD so come Monday I'll give it a go, thanks!


----------



## angpsi

angpsi said:


> What's the big black box behind your Spendor?


Also I love your Audio Research, I've been amazed by these in various hi-end audio shows but I absolutely loved them driving a pair of Wilson Sophia and a pair of Khama 3.2 back in the day.


----------



## angpsi

Ok, my previous post was #9595 in the thread. It was also my 600th post in Head-Fi. And I got 55 likes in general.

How symmetrical. There must be a conspiracy theory in here somewhere!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hahaha!
> I am literally becoming an uncle in September! Ok, actually my wife's sister is having a baby but being married to my wife makes me an uncle, doesn't it? I don't know about the "rich" part though, perhaps they're referring to UT!...



Angelo, are you laughing behind my back again? 

Anyhoo here's a cut and paste from my blog..... 

Please read. Feliks Audio amps are getting well known now. Hang on to your Elise and Euforia. You are holding onto a gold mine. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A conversation I had with Zach from ZMF Atticus and Eikon headphones. He thinks that Euforia is fantastic with Atticus and Eikon. I'm real happy. You hear that Lukasz? I hope you are tuning into my new thread. 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/a...phones-from-zmf.821782/page-263#post-13601470


----------



## connieflyer

Fuse update.  Found a pack of 2 1amp fuses, fast blow.  Put both in, both blew as soon as power applied. Ordering some slow blow 1.5amp if I can find them. Must be large inrush at startup.


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Fuse update.  Found a pack of 2 1amp fuses, fast blow.  Put both in, both blew as soon as power applied. Ordering some slow blow 1.5amp if I can find them. Must be large inrush at startup.



There's something really wrong Don. I suggest you contact Lukasz and tell him what happen with fast blow.


----------



## myphone

angpsi said:


> Btw, what's the big black box behind your Spendor?



Quad Electrostatic Speakers 989, bought 2001 when my children were in public elementary school.


----------



## myphone

I am with angpsi, with children in private University and ivy league law school now, I only have limited funds for some tubes and used gears.

Envious of UT.


----------



## UntilThen

myphone said:


> I am with angpsi, with children in private University and ivy league law school now, I only have limited funds for some tubes and used gears.
> 
> Envious of UT.



Soon my friend... you will be free to do as you choose. I did my time.... 

My children have graduated from uni and are working now. So I am free and working for my head-fi.... dang.


----------



## myphone

UntilThen said:


> Soon my friend... you will be free to do as you choose. I did my time....
> 
> My children have graduated from uni and are working now. So I am free and working for my head-fi.... dang.



yeah, UT. There is hope.


----------



## angpsi

myphone said:


> Quad Electrostatic Speakers 989, bought 2001 when my children were in public elementary school.


Damn, almost called it but I honestly didn't think they'd be this big! Been lusting after a pair of these too, how do they sound?


----------



## angpsi

myphone said:


> I am with angpsi, with children in private University and ivy league law school now, I only have limited funds for some tubes and used gears.
> 
> Envious of UT.


Ivy League, man! These will bankrupt a father before any tube rolling! Still, so very happy for your kids, you must be very proud!..


----------



## myphone

angpsi said:


> Damn, almost called it but I honestly didn't think they'd be this big! Been lusting after a pair of these too, how do they sound?



Wonderful, clean and uncolored. Great for classical music and vocal, paired with Atma-sphere OTL tube amps that produce more 1000 watt of heat. 

I have spent many enjoyable years. Sweet spot is a bit small, so have to sit down to listen. 

Nowadays, children are away and work is busy. Most listening is headphone while working on computer. Two channels are most background (AR/Spendor).


----------



## angpsi (Jul 15, 2017)

Next year my daughter is starting primary school with a private institution. Not the most expensive one around, but it does co-host a summer program with Harvard and it is run under the auspices of the Academy of Athens. So you could say it's very much like the Elise: not the biggest and baddest one out there but certainly a contender at what it does!

Very big on classical studies also; if my daughter ends up at law school I'm gonna need references!


----------



## angpsi

myphone said:


> Wonderful, clean and uncolored. Great for classical music and vocal, paired with Atma-sphere OTL tube amps that produce more 1000 watt of heat.
> 
> I have spent many enjoyable years. Sweet spot is a bit small, so have to sit down to listen.
> 
> Nowadays, children are away and work is busy. Most listening is headphone while working on computer. Two channels are most background (AR/Spendor).


I never actually listened to quad, but have read all about them. At one time I engaged in a long discussion about audio where one guy talked me into the idea of quad esl. Never had the chance to follow through my original engagement; to be honest I don't think they'd fit my living room as it is quite narrow and doesn't accommodate floorstanders well, let alone let them breathe.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 15, 2017)

Well perhaps maybe as I grow older... I'm a sucker for second-hand classics! Get to satisfy the cravings I couldn't afford when this gear was king! Here's one piece of gear that led me into the audiophile path and I'd really love to get my hands on it sometime.


----------



## myphone

angpsi said:


> Next year my daughter is starting primary school with a private institution. Not the most expensive one around, but it does co-host a summer program with Harvard and it is run under the auspices of the Academy of Athens. So you could say it's very much like the Elise: not the biggest and baddest one out there but certainly a contender at what it does!
> 
> Very big on classical studies also; if my daughter ends up at law school I'm gonna need references!



Enjoy your daughter's growth. Children are precious. They grow up quickly. Before long, they become adults.

Rolling children to success is much more important than rolling tubes.

There is hope. look at UT, future in audio land is bright.


----------



## angpsi

UntilThen said:


> Angelo, are you laughing behind my back again?
> 
> Anyhoo here's a cut and paste from my blog.....
> 
> ...


Saw that in your thread, either you have a plan, or the plan is to drive your bank manager to suicide! Perhaps you should get @myphone's Quad and be done with it!


----------



## myphone

angpsi said:


> I never actually listened to quad, but have read all about them. At one time I engaged in a long discussion about audio where one guy talked me into the idea of quad esl. Never had the chance to follow through my original engagement; to be honest I don't think they'd fit my living room as it is quite narrow and doesn't accommodate floorstanders well, let alone let them breathe.



There is a smaller QUAD ESL 2811. QUAD is very good for near-field listening.

I live in USA, rooms are big so larger model fits better.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 15, 2017)

myphone said:


> Enjoy your daughter's growth. Children are precious. They grow up quickly. Before long, they become adults.
> 
> Rolling children to success is much more important than rolling tubes.
> 
> There is hope. look at UT, future in audio land is bright.


I see a Blue Hawaii and Stax sometime in UT's future! That, or he'll eventually get the new Orpheus and drive all of his disciples to suicide!


----------



## angpsi (Jul 15, 2017)

myphone said:


> There is a smaller QUAD ESL 2811. QUAD is very good for near-field listening.
> 
> I live in USA, rooms are big so larger model fits better.


But still they need to be unobstructed as they radiate, right? No coffeetables and the like in front of them.
Btw, East coast or West coast?


----------



## Althalus

Johnnysound said:


> Please sign me in, my Euforia is #105 ? (I am not sure if that is its serial number). Ordered it 2 weeks ago



I'm not sure, I ordered mine two weeks ago too and my order is 0131. On the other hand,  if a naughty boy did post a raving review everything is possible. But that will imply that Mr lukasz had to cancel his holiday's to make it possible that everyone recieves his/her amp before the end of this season. Poor Mr lukasz.

Althalus

PS I don't believe anyone in this forum is responsible for any raving review. Here they only say "my dac is schiit" and "a good headphone is Utopia"


----------



## angpsi (Jul 15, 2017)

I think that Schiit is quickly becoming the universal standard here in Head-Fi. I know I was defending myself against it until I finally succumbed! On the other hand, I believe that the same applies for Euforia in the FA threads.

In truth, I think that FA always had an Euforia in their future when they developed the Elise. The latter merely paved the way to the former and I think it will ultimately become redundant in their product line now that their price makes it a "rich uncle" amp!  Of course that would mean a great opportunity for the Espressivo which is still considered a very good bargain at its price point.

Until that time, those fortunate enough to get a second hand Elise at a reduced price should be very much aware that they're going to own an extremely potent head amp, especially for high efficiency headphones!


----------



## myphone (Jul 15, 2017)

angpsi said:


> But still they need to be unobstructed as they radiate, right? No coffeetables and the like in front of them.
> Btw, East coast or West coast?



Yes, QUADs need open space between speakers and listeners, no furniture between.

East coast.

Hope your daughter would enjoy Harvard program. My post-doctoral training was at Harvard medical school. Great place.


----------



## Althalus

angpsi said:


> I think that Schiit is quickly becoming the universal standard here in Head-Fi



I agree with you. I can only be lucky that I can't affort one. I spent my money on an euforia. Nexr in line is a replacement for my k701.  Maybe when I have money for a dac they have one that is black, that's better looking mext to my amp.


----------



## angpsi

myphone said:


> Yes, QUADs need open space between speakers and listeners, no furniture between.
> 
> East coast.
> 
> Hope your daughter would enjoy Harvard program. My post-doctoral training was at Harvard medical school. Great place.


Maybe in a future listening room then... My ties lie with architecture thus far; I'm actually an academic myself.


----------



## JazzVinyl

UntilThen said:


> One marked difference between Elise and Euforia ( with the same tubes, DAC and headphone) is that Elise sounded leaner. Euforia is more full bodied, has a wider headstage and greater bass slam. It is also clearer and more micro details. These are very evident without even trying to listen hard.
> 
> I am sure there are quite a few here who have both Elise and Euforia, will concur with me. It is not imaginary. Certainly no blind test needed.
> 
> Lastly, Euforia has a quieter noise floor. It's almost pitch black and noiseless with volume to max and no music playing.



I'm certain your correct about Euphoria being a better amp.

However, saying no blind comparison needed, is perhaps a bold assumption.  Remove the "pride of ownership" factor, and your brain may reveal some truths that you had not realized before.

You own both, you paid _more_ for Euphoria, you bought the Euphoria hype, you WANT it to sound better, so of course, it does.  Perhaps you should try the true bind test, just for the heck of it.

Also, I don't think the circuit that many here say is an "auto bias" circuit is "auto bias".  I think it is a DC voltage increase circuit and is set at a certain voltage.  It does not "sense" how much more (or less) voltage one tube over another needs and automatically makes an adjustment.  The voltage this circuit supplies is adjustable, but only via a humans' hand turning a dial with a plastic screwdriver  

Cheers!


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 15, 2017)

JazzVinyl said:


> I'm certain your correct about Euphoria being a better amp.



I'm glad this is your opening statement. Nothing else matters if you are certain. Unless you are not certain that you are certain?

I think you need a blind test on your certainty.

By the way, I have no wish to engage in a conversation with you.


----------



## JazzVinyl

UntilThen said:


> I'm glad this is your opening statement. Nothing else matters if you are certain. Unless you are not certain that you are certain?
> 
> I think you need a blind test on your certainty.
> 
> By the way, I have no wish to engage in a conversation with you.



The point being the double blind test might reveal lots of attributes from both amps that you are not aware of, in knowing which amp is running.

Don't wish to engage in conversation with me?  Perhaps you should not post in public forums.

Have a nice day!


----------



## angpsi

Althalus said:


> I agree with you. I can only be lucky that I can't affort one. I spent my money on an euforia. Nexr in line is a replacement for my k701.  Maybe when I have money for a dac they have one that is black, that's better looking mext to my amp.


So what are you using as a source? Straight from pc?


----------



## UntilThen

Althalus said:


> PS I don't believe anyone in this forum is responsible for any raving review. Here they only say "my dac is schiit" and "a good headphone is Utopia"



You are right. Here our comments are very mild. We only say whether it's good Schiit or bad Schiit. 

Oh my, I just read the last 2 pages and I've been quoted left right and centre. Glad to meet you academics, medical professionals, scholars, architects and yoga practitioners. 

This hobby is great. There is no doubt about it. Be careful though or it will consume you and you will miss your sky diving.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> if my daughter ends up at law school I'm gonna need references!



I will give you one. Signed by UntilThen. Accepted by any universities.


----------



## UntilThen

myphone said:


> Rolling children to success is much more important than rolling tubes.



Says who? First you roll tube, then you roll children. You need to practise on rolling tubes first. You can't practise on rolling children. Mistakes are costly.

With tubes, you can afford to blow them up. With children, you can't or you will be in Sing Sing Prison, singing your life away !


----------



## mordy

I assume that many of us have old Hi Fi equipment sitting around that is being unused. To my surprise I have found that there is a market for this stuff, especially if it was high quality gear in its time.
I have been able to sell off some of my old equipment over the past two years. How do you get a feel for the market value? Type in the item on eBay and then go to the left column; scroll down until you see a check box "Sold items." Clicking on it brings up the prices this item sold for during the past couple of months. 
If there is no information, Google may be able to find you older posts with prices. There are also price guides for older equipment, but I don't know how reliable they are.
Another source for information is Google Images.
If you don't have the manual, most of the time you can find it for free using google, and you can print it out. It is even possible to sell items that are broken or have flaws.
Another way to finance the YggRag.....
When i mobilize enough energy I am going to advertise my Dreadnaught 250 amp (100W/channel). Made in the US in Massachusetts and designed by Dunlap-Clarke (two MDs [!] in the 70's. Here is a picture:




The one I have does not have a toggle switch for on/off, but an illuminated push switch (bulb not working).
Bet u never heard of this brand! It cost $640 new when i bought it in maybe 1979. 
Pct - brings back memories, eh?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Another way to finance the YggRag.....



This combination is Schiit's statement of work.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Hi All,

Lovin' this combo, sounds fab through the HS7's, off to Canjam today, hoping to meet Lukasz today, need to talk to him about Euphoria. Had any of you guy's managed to sort the inputs on Elise Euphoria
to play both Turntable & from hi-res digital with out having to rewire overtime you switch?


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Talking about antique gear I have this playing in the studio all the time, originally purchased in the 1980's still sounds fab.


----------



## UntilThen

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Lovin' this combo, sounds fab through the HS7's, off to Canjam today, hoping to meet Lukasz today, need to talk to him about Euphoria. Had any of you guy's managed to sort the inputs on Elise Euphoria
> to play both Turntable & from hi-res digital with out having to rewire overtime you switch?



Sylvania 6sn7w and Bendix 6080wb is one of my favourite combination. Simply beautiful.

Enjoy your time at Can Jam 2017 and say hi to Lukasz for me.

It's easy to swap inputs to Elise or Euforia using this switching 4 RCA inputs to 1 RCA output device. I use that when I have the turntable on my desk. So I can connect TT, CD player and DAC to switch box and switch to Elise / Euforia. Just press the button for the input you want. This is a cheap unit. You can get better and more expensive ones.


----------



## Suuup (Jul 16, 2017)

I see we're still having fun one year later. @JazzVinyl How're you going pal, good to see you're still going  I see ya'll met my friend @Aornic


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## UntilThen (Jul 16, 2017)

This thread is now dead. Aornic is talking to me on the other thread about his Can Jam 2017 London episode.

I won't be frequenting this thread anymore.

I'm basically unsubscribing.


----------



## Suuup

UntilThen said:


> This thread is now dead. Aornic is talking to me on the other thread about his Can Jam 2017 London episode.
> 
> I won't be frequenting this thread anymore.


There's yet another thread?


----------



## connieflyer

I don't think it is dead until PCT says so. Still lot of people with Elise that check in here.  This is UT's new thread  https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/page-19


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## connieflyer

Spent another couple of hours driving around trying to find a 1.6 amp slow blow fuse.  Found lots of 1.5 and 1.0 amp fast blow but those don't work in Euforia amp. Found some on ebay and finally ordered some from amazon.  At least a week before they arrive. You would think that FA would include an extra fuse, at the price they are getting for the amp. I could see it if it was not user replaceable but clearly this is not the case. Best buy had then in tech support area but do not sell to public.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I don't think it is dead until PCT says so. Still lot of people with Elise that check in here.



As much as I’d love to control everything and everyone, including HeadFi, I think a thread is dead only when everyone abandons it or the highest level of HeadFi declares it dead. The only thing that seems “dead” right now is your Euforia ((((( Bummer and condolences CF. 

PS: Thanks for trying to make me Supreme Foobah of this esteemed thread.


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## connieflyer

And this from someone that gave birth to it. It's your thread to do with as you will


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## pctazhp

mordy said:


> Pct - brings back memories, eh?



Mordy. Never heard the Dreadnaught but certainly heard about it. Yes, a lot of great memories from the Golden Years of audiophile world, when Harry Pearson reigned supreme


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> And this from someone that gave birth to it. It's your thread to do with as you will



In appreciation of you keeping me in constant stitches, I hereby bequeath, grant, convey and irrevocably assign full control and domain to you.


----------



## mordy

pctazhp said:


> In appreciation of you keeping me in constant stitches, I hereby bequeath, grant, convey and irrevocably assign full control and domain to you.


Second that motion!


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## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> In appreciation of you keeping me in constant stitches, I hereby bequeath, grant, convey and irrevocably assign full control and domain to you.


Just as long as you keep checking in here pct! I was so surprised and saddened to see one of the original contributors proclaiming the death of this thread I thought that maybe the rest of you guys actually sanctioned it... Seriously, I think one of the main reasons I've enjoyed my Elise experience so far is hanging out with all of you guys, including UT. Thus said, I agree; this thread will only be dead when no one posts in it. But if you guys migrate, then by all means let's call it quits.

Personally I've achieved a sweet spot with my Elise so I am happy to call it quits. As I said, I'll keep lurking around and I'll post upon occasion. Then again, I won't be unsubscribing from this thread until it makes absolute sense (e.g. if no one asks for help, or everyone migrates to the other thread). Even then - call me sentimental - I still want to make it to 10000 posts; so I'll keep at it (at my own pace) until someone calls me out to the moderators!


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## angpsi (Jul 16, 2017)

And I'm posting all this out my cellphone! Damn it's not convenien at all!


----------



## angpsi

Btw, I was outbid for this single tube and lost it to $115,50. Couldn't afford to go to a bidding war now that I spent €200 for the Mimby, but if the tube is what I think it is then maybe I really missed out... @Oskari can you confirm?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Then again, I won't be unsubscribing from this thread until it makes absolute sense (e.g. if no one asks for help, or everyone migrates to the other thread). Even then - call me sentimental - I still want to make it to 10000 posts; so I'll keep at it (at my own pace) until someone calls me out to the moderators!



It being summer here in Scottsdale, the only place I'm currently migrating to is out to the pool each day. And maybe later in the year to Ukraine so I can be closer to Poland in case I need a replacement fuse. Can't speak for the others. Seems dual thread citizenship is perfectly appropriate 

I'm at my own sweet spot and happy with my system, including tubes. And I notice I enjoy listening to music whether or not I'm receiving inspiration from my "bulb family" as my wife refers to you guys))) But I too am sentimental, and it would be nice to see the 10,000 mark hit. However, I will report anyone to the moderator who tries to take that honor from you, because you have been the one leading the charge 

PS. I hate writing on my phone. CF uses voice to text software, which is why he often seems of less than sound mind. I don't have that excuse because I only post from my PC!!!!


----------



## angpsi

For all you lurkers out there, there's an Elise going out on eBay currently going for €251 plus shipping! That's lower than the Espressivo right now, albeit I'd expect it to go higher.

Just as a disclaimer, I have no affiliation to the auction whatsoever; I just saw this as a good opportunity for new users to get their hands on an Elise!


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## connieflyer (Jul 16, 2017)

I will continue to use text to speech on the phone, as the letters are soooooo small, and the fingers are, shall we say, a little larger and less dextrous than years ago.  I don't think this thread is dead by any means, all we need is a little humor! I could not find this song anywhere else, but I saw it on facebook and it cracked me up.  I will post the link, and hope all can get in.  https://www.facebook.com/Define-Hea...3FELdA-adnvcFZl3WX4sHWfbSxKI_F1eU&pnref=story


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## connieflyer

In my quest to find a new fuse for my Euforia amp, stopped in at best buy store, and while there inquired if they sell, or knew of any laptops that were available with coax output.  He said no, and I have not seen any, but figured I would ask the world wide audience of music lovers, to see if one exists. Have been using my phone and a tablet that my wife used, but would like to go to a laptop with a full keyboard.  Want to re-arrange my music-living-connor play room, and consolidate the dac, amp and music server next to the recliner, so with the laptop, will not have to move much, except for refreshments of course.  So if any of you are aware of a laptop with a coax output jack, please let me know.  I will be eternally grateful and will leave it to you in my will! Thanks!


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## angpsi (Jul 16, 2017)

connieflyer said:


> I will continue to use text to speech on the phone, as the letters are soooooo small, and the fingers are, shall we say, a little larger and less dextrous than years ago.  I don't think this thread is dead by any means, all we need is a little humor! I could not find this song anywhere else, but I saw it on facebook and it cracked me up.  I will post the link, and hope all can get in.  https://www.facebook.com/Define-Hea...3FELdA-adnvcFZl3WX4sHWfbSxKI_F1eU&pnref=story


You mean the workout song? Oh man, that's like rubbing salt on wounds! Admittedly it's funny!...


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> In my quest to find a new fuse for my Euforia amp, stopped in at best buy store, and while there inquired if they sell, or knew of any laptops that were available with coax output.  He said no, and I have not seen any, but figured I would ask the world wide audience of music lovers, to see if one exists. Have been using my phone and a tablet that my wife used, but would like to go to a laptop with a full keyboard.  Want to re-arrange my music-living-connor play room, and consolidate the dac, amp and music server next to the recliner, so with the laptop, will not have to move much, except for refreshments of course.  So if any of you are aware of a laptop with a coax output jack, please let me know.  I will be eternally grateful and will leave it to you in my will! Thanks!


Maybe just get a Singxer F1?


----------



## connieflyer

I have not ruled that out. It may be the only way to make it work, just wanted to less the equipment. I thought the video was pretty funny.  I don't know if Adele would appreciate it, but then they say mimicking your works is a compliment.  Have been trying since my wife passed on, to get in shape to better meet the challenges life still faces me.  So far the shape is a little bit bigger than when I started, I am assuming (hoping) that it is just muscles building up, but I have a sinking feeling that it is softer material!


----------



## connieflyer

Reason I wanted coax output is to bypass the amp and dac on the laptop and feed it straight into the Schiit dac. I may have to try a usb connection to the Schiit and see how that compares again.


----------



## connieflyer (Jul 16, 2017)

Just tried connecting the pc to the coax input on the Sony Haps S1 music server, not bad.  Not as good as the Schiit to Euforia but will have to do until fuses arrive. Maybe @hypnos1 will make an appearance tomorrow and shed some of his vast knowledge  on situation.


----------



## connieflyer

Thought I would share with you one of my favorite composers. A young Norwegian man by the name of Arn Anderson


----------



## pctazhp (Jul 16, 2017)

connieflyer said:


> Nite all.



Nite all???? It's still the middle of the day!!!!

OK. Maybe H1 with his vast knowledge will indeed show up tomorrow and help you out. But even if he does, you still need to balance his advice with advice from someone with zero knowledge - namely me. I have gone back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and so on between ASUS USB by-pass and this: https://kitsunehifi.com/product/holoaudio-xeme2ve-usb-to-spdif-digital-interface/. I keep changing my mind. Right now I am using the Holo Audio device and it sounds great. It is only $120. Don't know how it compares to the Singxer F1, but it was designed by the same guy who designed the Holo Audio Spring Level 3 DAC. So it might do for your laptop.

But what do I know???? Since nostalgia for the early F-A thread days is the order of the day, this perennial favorite (of mine-no one else) will answer that question.



Edit:  Also you might want to keep in mind the Schiit Elir should be introduced soon (maybe even tomorrow) and that might be a good solution.


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> For all you lurkers out there, there's an Elise going out on eBay currently going for €251 plus shipping! That's lower than the Espressivo right now, albeit I'd expect it to go higher.
> 
> Just as a disclaimer, I have no affiliation to the auction whatsoever; I just saw this as a good opportunity for new users to get their hands on an Elise!


hi A,

The same seller has another pair of the GEC 6AS7 but one tube does not measure that well but seems usable:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-6AS7-GE...686723?hash=item489f62a243:g:zn4AAOSwx3NZX2Fz


----------



## connieflyer

Yes, PCT, I edited my post about nite all.  Realized it was still lite out, thought I had the lamp on! I have looked into these converters before and it my be the only way to accomplish what I want to do.  YOU will be my guide on this.  You have to switch back and forth until you can say with certainty one is better than the other or at least equal. I am counting on you so don't let me down,  I know where you live, and may have to make a bombing run with the Connie!


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> if the tube is what I think it is


Seems that way.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Yes, PCT, I edited my post about nite all.  Realized it was still lite out, thought I had the lamp on! I have looked into these converters before and it my be the only way to accomplish what I want to do.  YOU will be my guide on this.  You have to switch back and forth until you can say with certainty one is better than the other or at least equal. I am counting on you so don't let me down,  I know where you live, and may have to make a bombing run with the Connie!



You are not the only terminally confused person here. I also had to edit my post to mention Elir. If I were you, and even if I weren't, I'd wait at least a week or so to see if there is any news about Elir. No one outside of Schiit really knows what it is going to be but I think Schiit is trying to design something to deal with what they see as the limits of USB at a reasonable price. If my life depended on it (which apparently from what you say it does) and I had to chose between the HA unit and ASUS, as it stands right now I would chose the HA. Plus, with my advanced computer knowledge, I can inform you sound cards don't fit in laptops))). Read the design considerations of the HA unit. I thought it was kind of interesting. And it takes advantage of USB3. I'm not aware of a similar device that does that.


----------



## connieflyer

Well PCT, looks like they are out of stock so keep testing and I will wait for a bit. $400 is too much for me to spend on the Singxer F1 at that price I will just build a home theater pc in a compact case and use the asus card.  Of course if they go on sale, who knows, the shadow, do. Time to take Connor out, have a great night all.


----------



## tjw321

Fewer laptops seem to support either optical or coax spdif these days. I've been using a Raspberry Pi with a HifiBerry Digi+ pro to feed my Bimby. It's running Volumio which means I can control it from my phone, or my laptop.
An even cheaper (and easier to setup) option is the chromecast audio, which does optical out. That too can be controlled from your tablet or phone. I haven't found any way to control it in a satisfactory manner from my laptop, though. (https://www.google.com/chromecast/audio/).
I've used both to fill in whilst hunting down a longer term, better solution but, TBH, they both work well enough that I'm not even looking that hard now.
The benefits of the Pi version are a much nicer user interface, you can hook up a USB drive to have the music stored locally, and anything with a web browser (on the same network) can control it.
The CCA is much easier to set up, but you'll need something like a NAS drive to store your music, and the user interfaces may not be that great since it relies on phone or tablet apps. My NAS drive (Synology) has an audio app which works adequately, and most internet radio apps work really well (no need for a NAS for internet radio).


----------



## angpsi (Jul 17, 2017)

mordy said:


> hi A,
> 
> The same seller has another pair of the GEC 6AS7 but one tube does not measure that well but seems usable:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-6AS7-GE...686723?hash=item489f62a243:g:zn4AAOSwx3NZX2Fz


Yeah, I know, the guy's got some treasures stashed in his inventory but unfortunately I can't afford GEC level spending at this point. Last month I got a flat tyre which I have to replace, bought a bike and a bike stand for the car, and every weekend away from Athens will be costing me upwards €200 per hit. So buying the Mimby was a luxury enough, and I still have to sell gear to compensate. Maybe someone's interested in my Tung-Sol 5998; or, better yet my Telefunken EL12 and Siemens EL12n?


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Nite all???? It's still the middle of the day!!!!


Very accurate in my case, we were chatting at 2 am Athens time!


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> Well PCT, looks like they are out of stock so keep testing and I will wait for a bit. $400 is too much for me to spend on the Singxer F1 at that price I will just build a home theater pc in a compact case and use the asus card.  Of course if they go on sale, who knows, the shadow, do. Time to take Connor out, have a great night all.


What are you talking about? The F1 (mind you, NOT SU1) is $200: https://m.shenzhenaudio.com/singxer...-xu208-chip-high-end-u8-upgraded-version.html

I'll second Pct's mention of the Schiit, besides news are coming out today. I'll also second the Rpi; haven't had experience myself but I've seen some people with $$$$$ gear in the local audiophile scene using it with great results - or so they claim.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 17, 2017)

Mimby is on its way from Belgium. This is the country my HD600 came from, again as a second-hand deal. I think of it as a good omen, although I'll try to be critical putting it against the Meridian Explorer 2; after all, one of them will have to go in the end. Still, I fear I'm getting expectation bias each day that passes by!

Schiit!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Mimby is on its way from Belgium. This is the country my HD600 came from, again as a second-hand deal. I think of it as a good omen, although I'll try to be critical putting it against the Meridian Explorer 2; after all, one of them will have to go in the end. Still, I fear I'm getting expectation bias each day that passes by!
> 
> Schiit!



Expectation bias is part of the fun of this hobby. Enjoy )))


----------



## nickbojko

pctazhp said:


> Expectation bias is part of the fun of this hobby. Enjoy )))





pctazhp said:


> Expectation bias is part of the fun of this hobby. Enjoy )))


Is anybody among the many elise owners interested in running their Elise output IN-PHASE,if you are let me know and I will tell you how to do this simple mod that will give you a big sonic improvement!!!!!!nick.


----------



## pctazhp (Jul 17, 2017)

connieflyer said:


> Yes, PCT, I edited my post about nite all.  Realized it was still lite out, thought I had the lamp on! I have looked into these converters before and it my be the only way to accomplish what I want to do.  YOU will be my guide on this.  You have to switch back and forth until you can say with certainty one is better than the other or at least equal. I am counting on you so don't let me down,  I know where you live, and may have to make a bombing run with the Connie!



OK CF. My extensive knowledge and research has hit pay dirt. Check the Schiit site. Elir is now available for $179. It indeed is a DDC that implements Schiit's new USB Gen5 technology and converts to coax output. Or, you can send in your Gumby to upgrade to Schiit USB Gen5 technology. Don't bother to thank me. Just make a modest donation to your favorite charity in my name.


----------



## pctazhp

nickbojko said:


> Is anybody among the many elise owners interested in running their Elise output IN-PHASE,if you are let me know and I will tell you how to do this simple mod that will give you a big sonic improvement!!!!!!nick.



I'll bite !!!


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## pctazhp (Jul 17, 2017)

Explanation of Schiit USB Gen 5 and Eitr: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/s...bable-start-up.701900/page-1466#post-13605250


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Explanation of Schiit USB Gen 5 and Eitr: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/s...bable-start-up.701900/page-1466#post-13605250


All it matters is that it's priced competitively against the Singxer F1 and like. Let the games begin...


----------



## nickbojko

pctazhp said:


> I'll bite !!!





pctazhp said:


> Explanation of Schiit USB Gen 5 and Eitr: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/s...bable-start-up.701900/page-1466#post-13605250


for IN-PHase operation take bottom cover off,remove all tubes first,look at bottom of 6sn7gt tube socket,you will need spec sheet to see pine layout,there is a jumper between both grid pins it is to be removed,the wire has to be unsoldered.move the input wire coming from volume control and solder it to the grid pin # 1 on the bottom of socket,it will be the one you unsoldered the jumper wire from toward front of preamp.now the the grid pin #4 you will solder a piece of solid core wire to ground(which is on the board of the volume control,it runs along the edge of the board facing the rear of preamp),this has to be done to both 6sn7gt tube sockets and when your done put the bottom back on,tubes back in and plug her back in and enjoy,you will loose some gain but not much.The results are worth it ,you not want to go back ever!!!!!nick.


pctazhp said:


> I'll bite !!!





pctazhp said:


> I'll bite !!!


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks PCT emailed them a about an Eitr waiting to hear. Sucks I have only had Gumby for a few months, don't want to send it in right now, will purchase one of these and then maybe a new laptop. Will have to compare it to asus output first.


----------



## connieflyer (Jul 17, 2017)

Can you explain what you will hear that is different with IN-PHase operation please? Of course this will probably void the warranty as well.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Thanks PCT emailed them a about an Eitr waiting to hear. Sucks I have only had Gumby for a few months, don't want to send it in right now, will purchase one of these and then maybe a new laptop. Will have to compare it to asus output first.



Makes sense. You can return Eitr if you don't like it. Will be interesting to hear your comparison with the ASUS board. I'm standing pat right now in anticipation of probably ordering a Gumby. I'll get Gen 5 at no additional cost. All comes to he who procrastinates 

Anyway, I want a black Gumby so I won't have to have to


----------



## connieflyer

Just ordered a  Eitr should be here this week. So we shall see. Thanks again for the heads up. If you have trouble finding a black gumby I have a few cans of black spray paint, flat, satin or gloss your choice!


----------



## angpsi

Will you look at that; Jason Stoddard himself uses a Mimby! 
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/s...bable-start-up.701900/page-1471#post-13605642


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> If you have trouble finding a black gumby I have a few cans of black spray paint, flat, satin or gloss your choice!



I'll consult with Mick Jagger next time he takes me out for a beer.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Will you look at that; Jason Stoddard himself uses a Mimby!
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/s...bable-start-up.701900/page-1471#post-13605642



So get a Eitr ("eater") and live happily ever after


----------



## nickbojko

connieflyer said:


> Can you explain what you will hear that is different with IN-PHase operation please? Of course this will probably void the warranty as well.


im


connieflyer said:


> Can you explain what you will hear that is different with IN-PHase operation please? Of course this will probably void the warranty as well.


imagining is improved,voices are are more centered and alive sounding top to bottom clarity is improved,the total sense of realism is vastly improved.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> So get a Eitr ("eater") and live happily ever after


Let's see what the EU price comes up to first!


----------



## connieflyer

Well, I bought a Elir  usb to coax converter, will let you know, how it works, when it gets here and when I get some fuses. Hope all it is, is a fuse.  It would be a real bummer if it was not after having to wait so long just for a fuse. I re-iterate, the folks with an Elise or Euforia should make sure to get a fuse or two, cheap insurance should you need it, and without having to jump through hoops to find them. It will be a new experience listening to the Feliks amp again, will have to get used to it again, although I don't suppose it will be tooooo hard. Well take care, for now.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I re-iterate, the folks with an Elise or Euforia should make sure to get a fuse or two, cheap insurance should you need it, and without having to jump through hoops to find them.



Is this the right one?  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004TRPBJ0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## connieflyer

Yes these are the correct fuses this is the same ones that I ordered from Amazon but they don't use prime because it's such a small order it's one of the things ship when it needs to the estimate said about a week so but I would definitely get some to have just in case one blows you don't have to be using high-powered tubes or Christmas tree setups I just had some the 6s N7 and 6080 in the machine. So there was nothing out of the ordinary in the amp.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> Yes these are the correct fuses this is the same ones that I ordered from Amazon but they don't use prime because it's such a small order it's one of the things ship when it needs to the estimate said about a week so but I would definitely get some to have just in case one blows you don't have to be using high-powered tubes or Christmas tree setups I just had some the 6s N7 and 6080 in the machine. So there was nothing out of the ordinary in the amp.



Thanks CF. I don't run anything out of the ordinary in my amp and I'm the only one who listens to it so no one out of the ordinary every listens to it. But I have ordered a set of the backup fuses to be safe.


----------



## connieflyer

How extraordinary of you! Best to be prepared. Very glad you are ordinary!


----------



## angpsi

As I'm waiting for my Mimby, I couldn't help but bid on a little something... Once the auction is finished I'll post again and ask for opinions.


----------



## angpsi

In the meantime, all the Schiit about the Eitr made me realise that I am indeed experiencing drops and clicks on my Meridian Explorer 2. This happens when the MacBook Pro is under stress, therefore I assumed it was a processor / Audirvana thing. But now that the decrapifier talk is all over the place, do you guys think that what I'm experiencing is this kind of deal?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> As I'm waiting for my Mimby, I couldn't help but bid on a little something... Once the auction is finished I'll post again and ask for opinions.



I figure you must really be on to something. Based on the assumption it is on ebay, I've started bidding on every auction I can find on ebay


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I figure you must really be on to something. Based on the assumption it is on ebay, I've started bidding on every auction I can find on ebay


Nah, not really a bargain, just something that enticed me enough to bid on. But I'll be really excited if I got it, even though I definitely have to start selling off other stuff to compensate. Not GEC–level spending though, if that's any consolation; I really hope you haven't started bidding on these just because of me!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> In the meantime, all the Schiit about the Eitr made me realise that I am indeed experiencing drops and clicks on my Meridian Explorer 2. This happens when the MacBook Pro is under stress, therefore I assumed it was a processor / Audirvana thing. But now that the decrapifier talk is all over the place, do you guys think that what I'm experiencing is this kind of deal?



I've never experienced that problem, but certainly others have with various DACs. As I understand it Schiit developed Wyrd to deal with USB dropout and connection problems. They never made any claim of SQ improvement, but many seemed to feel that Wyrd did improve SQ. It is unclear to me if Eitr helps with USB connection problems. However, clearly Schiit is now claiming SQ improvement with Eitr.

I think Schiit has tried to make it clear that the SQ improvement is the same with either Eitr or Gen5 USB upgrade or USB Gen5 now included with all new Yggy, Gumby and Bimby multibits. If I don't buy a new Gumby with USB Gen 5, I will either buy Eitr or order a USB Gen5 board for my Bimby when they become available for user install. I notice a significant improvement over direct USB to Bimby by using either the USB by-pass function of the ASUS soundcard or my Holo Audio decrapifier.

One interesting consequence of the introduction of Gen5 is it has probably depressed the resale value of all existing Yggy, Gumby and Bimby multibit DACs, because the new ones come with Gen 5 at no increase in price. On the other hand, those now who buy one of those new multibit DACs aren't having to pay extra for Gen 5.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 18, 2017)

Speaking of ultra–expensive 6sn7 tubes, this one pair really picked my interest. Looks like a Melz regular round hole 6sn7 but different. Something interesting going on with the base too? @Oskari ?


----------



## pctazhp

Actually, the only thing I'd be bidding on right now is a money tree. Good luck. I'm not competing with you


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I've never experienced that problem, but certainly others have with various DACs. As I understand it Schiit developed Wyrd to deal with USB dropout and connection problems. They never made any claim of SQ improvement, but many seemed to feel that Wyrd did improve SQ. It is unclear to me if Eitr helps with USB connection problems. However, clearly Schiit is now claiming SQ improvement with Eitr.
> 
> I think Schiit has tried to make it clear that the SQ improvement is the same with either Eitr or Gen5 USB upgrade or USB Gen5 now included with all new Yggy, Gumby and Bimby multibits. If I don't buy a new Gumby with USB Gen 5, I will either buy Eitr or order a USB Gen5 board for my Bimby when they become available for user install. I notice a significant improvement over direct USB to Bimby by using either the USB by-pass function of the ASUS soundcard or my Holo Audio decrapifier.
> 
> One interesting consequence of the introduction of Gen5 is it has probably depressed the resale value of all existing Yggy, Gumby and Bimby multibit DACs, because the new ones come with Gen 5 at no increase in price. On the other hand, those now who buy one of those new multibit DACs aren't having to pay extra for Gen 5.


Actually, you have a really good point here: it's quite possible people will see this as an opportunity to upgrade so prices of used Schiit may depreciate. However, so far as I have seen people discussing the Eitr, it looks like current owners are just going to add the Eitr while some are waiting out until Schiit starts selling DIY upgrade boards. In any case, it will be a good test to their original marketing strategy / selling point, namely that Schiit products are upgradeable.

On a different note, I believe that the Eitr renders the Wyrd unnecessary as it shares the same idea about isolating from USB bus power. Plus it adds S/PDIF on the equation, therefore better signal quality to the Multibit Schiit—which I think they absolutely need to sound their best.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Actually, the only thing I'd be bidding on right now is a money tree. Good luck. I'm not competing with you


Cool, let me know if you make it. In the meantime, I'll let you know if I manage to plant an Yggdrasil!


----------



## Oskari (Jul 18, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Speaking of ultra–expensive 6sn7 tubes, this one pair really picked my interest. Looks like a Melz regular round hole 6sn7 but different.


Exactly. Polish brand…

Seller says Polish-made. Well, why not?

That was a new one.


----------



## angpsi

Hey @Aornic, I was reading through the London Can-Jam impressions thread and got to your post which features a lovely pic of the Elise & the Euforia side. Although I recognized the Psvane CV18–TII on the Euforia, which set of tubes are driving the Elise? Are they the Shuguang Treasures or some different version of the Psvane UK6sn7? I wonder whether this plays a role in the warmer sound signature you got on the Elise.


----------



## angpsi

Btw, can I attach your pic to this thread? (with references, for sure—I'm an academic after all!)


----------



## Aornic

angpsi said:


> Btw, can I attach your pic to this thread? (with references, for sure—I'm an academic after all!)


Sure you can.

I'm not too familiar with PSVANE tubes, but they told me that they were using the entry level ones for the Elise and the gold-pin ones for Euphoria.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 18, 2017)

Aornic said:


> Sure you can.
> 
> I'm not too familiar with PSVANE tubes, but they told me that they were using the entry level ones for the Elise and the gold-pin ones for Euphoria.


Hmmm, perhaps you will sample the Psvane if you get an Euforia for your review... Interesting tubes; for me the UK6sn7 were quite a surprise and I only got over them once I got my hands on the TOTL line of 6sn7 tubes such as the 6sn7w (see "minority report" on the first cumulative post in this thread).

Granted permission I hereby give you the Feliks Audio stand in the 2017 London Can–Jam, courtesy of @Aornic! Many thanks!


----------



## Aornic

angpsi said:


> Hmmm, perhaps you will sample the Psvane if you get an Euforia for your review... Interesting tubes; for me the UK6sn7 were quite a surprise and I only got over them once I got my hands on the TOTL line of 6sn7 tubes such as the 6sn7w (see "minority report" on the first cumulative post in this thread).
> 
> Granted permission I hereby give you the Feliks Audio stand in the 2017 London Can–Jam, courtesy of @Aornic! Many thanks!


I'm looking forward to it. Got my hands on some RCA 7N7's today and find them quite impressive.

Also I included my experience at the Feliks booth in my Can Jam impressions video.


----------



## pctazhp

Well, what do you know??? FINALLY, again we can see who is visiting a particular thread. Kudos to the HeadFi gang


----------



## angpsi (Jul 18, 2017)

Can you see me? Nothing new happening on the mobile friendly version, things are still as they were before.


----------



## angpsi

Writing on my cellphone again, instead of going to sleep, obviously!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Can you see me? Nothing new happening on the mobile friendly version, things are still as they were,



I can see you angpsi. Even though you are on the phone, apparently you are a real person Real people need sleep, BTW


----------



## angpsi

@hypnos1, do you know which type of tube was the white base Psvane that FA used on the Elise? Also, given your past experience with the Psvane CV181/TII, can you offer any opinion about the sonic differences @Aornic heard between the Elise and the Euforia ? Basically, what I'm asking is whether the tubes used represent a certain 'preferred' flavor FA likes to give to each particular amp, or are simply the best they could do for each amp's stock sound.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I can see you angpsi. Even though you are on the phone, apparently you are a real person Real people need sleep, BTW


Lights are off, wife is asleep next to me, maybe I should take a hint!


----------



## angpsi

Now you see me... now you don't! Goodnight!


----------



## angpsi (Jul 19, 2017)

Another favorable impression of the FA amps at CanJam London by @CantScareMe. Did you listen to both the Elise and the Euforia? I'd like to hear more about your experience!



> "*Feliks audio's* amps were impressive.
> I thought I was listening to a multi thousand pound piece of equipment and was shocked when he revealed the price (like £600 or something)"



But we knew that already!


----------



## angpsi (Jul 19, 2017)

rosgr63 said:


> You are most welcome!!!!!
> Every time Glenn comes over I learn so much about Audio, it's like I know nothing.
> Not to mention the little experiments he does which I find fascinating


Hi @rosgr63, I'm sure Glenn has already come and gone but are you still available to meet sometime? And would you happen to have a pair of TS 6sn7gt VT231 black round base?


----------



## Althalus

angpsi said:


> So what are you using as a source? Straight from pc?



angspi,

Sorry for my late reaction, I use as source a marantz s15s1. Or for the younger ones who don't know what that is, a sacd player. . 

Althalus


----------



## Althalus (Jul 19, 2017)

I have decideded to tell you more about my way into expensive Head-Fi. For newbees, never buy a good headphone, it's costing you more than you realise.

It started when my wireless headphone started to shed it's pads. And I don't like flakes of rubber around my ears. Given the fact that the shop were I used to buy my gear had closed because the owner retired I went to the only other shop I knew. A fancy Shop selling things like B&O and loewe and brands I hadn't heard of before.
After listening to 5 cans, It became a close race between a senn 650 and the K701. The last one I liked most and was my most expensive buy ever and still costs money.￼
I paired it with my Philips 5cd exchanger and was very happy till I started to notice something was lacking. I Went back to that shop and came home with a Xcan V8 + Xpsu and a new cable to connect the CD Player with the amp.
I was happy again till I decided that I needed a quality CD Player, the marantz s15s1
And again, After a while I noticed that during daytimes the music sounded less good than at 23:00.
Time for a netfilter.
And now, years later, time for a sexy looking amp that hopefully sounds great.￼ ￼

Althalus.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 19, 2017)

Althalus said:


> I have decideded to tell you more about my way into expensive Head-Fi. For newbees, never buy a good headphone, it's costing you more than you realise.
> 
> It started when my wireless headphone started to shed it's pads. And I don't like flakes of rubber around my ears. Given the fact that the shop were I used to buy my gear had closed because the owner retired I went to the only other shop I knew. A fancy Shop selling things like B&O and loewe and brands I hadn't heard of before.
> After listening to 5 cans, It became a close race between a senn 650 and the K701. The last one I liked most and was my most expensive buy ever and still costs money.￼
> ...



And now going at it once again! Be prepared to roll tubes, they're quite the deal with this amp. Unless you want to go straight to the top–tier tubes, where, IMO, you'll basically save money. The downside is that you won't have sampled all of the other options so you won't be fully aware of the gains! Which tubes are you starting up with?

On the same note, I know _I_ paid for my education; at first I could easily discern tonal differences with different tubes but overall I didn't find any of them to be significantly better than the stock Svetlana 6N13S with the 'upgrade' Psvane UK6sn7. Then I gradually got: [1] a pair of Mullard 6080 with a pair of Svetlana 6sn7wgt, [2] a pair of GEC 6080 with a pair of Sylvania 6sn7w, and [3] a pair of Tung-Sol 5998 along with a pair of Tung-Sol 6sn7. While according to my taste combo #2 is end-game, all of these combos gave me an OMG jump in performance (especially #2 and #3), and revealed how incredibly both the Elise and my HD600 could scale. At this point I'm extremely happy with combo #2, so much I'm considering letting go of my other tubes in order to finance building up a stock of my preferred ones! Of course one could roll tubes for flavor, but I'm kind of a 'leave and forget' kinda guy...


----------



## angpsi

That being said, I'm sure @mordy can give you solid advice on low–priced tubes!


----------



## Althalus (Jul 19, 2017)

angpsi said:


> That being said, I'm sure @mordy can give you solid advice on low–priced tubes!


I thank you, but I think it's wise to stay with the tubes that come with my Euforia for the first couple of months. And of course wait till my Euforia arrives. And then, after a couple of months, we will see.

Althalus

PS, I noticed that responding to someone results in ending up in a "wrong"  thread, but who cares, Euforia is just a matured Elise 

Edit,  angspi, thank you for listing those tubes, maybe I need it in the future.


----------



## angpsi

Althalus said:


> Edit,  angspi, thank you for listing those tubes, maybe I need it in the future.


Sure, no problem, just drop me a pm if you're interested or I'll let you know if/when I decide to put them up for sale!


----------



## connieflyer

Espct the new version of the software feature a special feature that you have to turn on in the options if you're using a smartphone it makes all the smart people show up on your screen Unfortunately they haven't got to work around to show your picture yet! But it's not a problem I'll just tell him see you in St Louis


----------



## hypnos1

Aornic said:


> I'm looking forward to it. Got my hands on some RCA 7N7's today and find them quite impressive.
> 
> Also I included my experience at the Feliks booth in my Can Jam impressions video.




Hi Aornic.

First, I must congratulate you on your very interesting video...especially (of course! ) your positive impressions of the Elise and Euforia, given the constraints of such venues. My thanks - along with those of Feliks-Audio -  go to you for your genuine appraisal. I'm sure I speak for us all when I say that I really look forward to when you are able to give them both further testing in your own more "conducive" environment. I think you will then be even more impressed - especially with what Euforia can deliver when the rest of the system is upgraded. My Naim UnitiCore as source took this amp to another level entirely...as do top flight NOS tubes.

Secondly, I wish I had been there to meet you when you were enjoying your time at the F-A stand!...perhaps next time, hopefully...

As an adjunct to your own post on the venue - and the links @angpsi so helpfully provided - may I show here just one of the photos I took of the Feliks brothers...my main post is over at the Euforia thread (page 235), and I don't want to fall foul of the "double posting" rule!! ..........:




That's Lukasz far right, with his wife and brothers Michal and Piotrek.

More pics on the Euforia post...please look in guys!! .....CHEERS!....CJ


----------



## Aornic

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Aornic.
> 
> First, I must congratulate you on your very interesting video...especially (of course! ) your positive impressions of the Elise and Euforia, given the constraints of such venues. My thanks - along with those of Feliks-Audio -  go to you for your genuine appraisal. I'm sure I speak for us all when I say that I really look forward to when you are able to give them both further testing in your own more "conducive" environment. I think you will then be even more impressed - especially with what Euforia can deliver when the rest of the system is upgraded. My Naim UnitiCore as source took this amp to another level entirely...as do top flight NOS tubes.
> 
> ...


Thank you. If you attend the Indulgence shows in September, you will see me there running a booth for Venture Electronics and ZMF Headphones.


----------



## hypnos1

Aornic said:


> Thank you. If you attend the Indulgence shows in September, you will see me there running a booth for Venture Electronics and ZMF Headphones.



Hi again, A...will certainly look into those shows - don't know much about them alas!

Interesting that you mentioned ZMF Headphones...I was mightily impressed with how well the Eikon, especially, mated with the F-A amps. I wasn't able to try them with Elise, unfortunately, but they sounded extremely good with Euforia. To _my_ ears, their delivery was similar in many ways to my beloved T1s. They are also beautifully constructed... but for me, alas, a tad on the heavy side. I'm also well addicted to open cans, but if one's preference is for closed, these must surely be on everyone's list!


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> @hypnos1, do you know which type of tube was the white base Psvane that FA used on the Elise? Also, given your past experience with the Psvane CV181/TII, can you offer any opinion about the sonic differences @Aornic heard between the Elise and the Euforia ? Basically, what I'm asking is whether the tubes used represent a certain 'preferred' flavor FA likes to give to each particular amp, or are simply the best they could do for each amp's stock sound.



Hi angpsi.

Ashamed to say I didn't even manage to closely scrutinise the different tubes they used during the event. I was under the impression that Elise (as option) and Euforia use the same clear glass PsVane 6sn7, which I'm afraid I've never heard. But the grey glass, gold-coloured-base tubes appear to me to be the CV181 TII, which I believe F-A originally thought was actually not quite as well suited to their amps as the cheaper 'standard/UK' 6SN7 version. I suspect this might be down to the slightly "lighter"/less full-bodied  presentation of the TII. Given the (IMO) broader FR coverage of Euforia, this might possibly explain the use of the TII in it at the show...or at least for the short time I myself was there!


----------



## mondrax (Jul 19, 2017)

Hello Everybody,

First of all I am new to the tube amp arena.  I have a Feliks Elise, and I am enyoing the tube rolling capabilities and options.  So far some of the tube choices I have done work, BUT I think I got my self on a bit of a pickle. Here is the situation I got a pair of Sylvania VT99 (6F8G)  that are supposed to be a direct replacement for the 6SN7.  The problem i see is that they hum after few seconds when i power the amp, i tried them as a direct replacement, no joy,  so I though based on some topics around , I needed to get an convertor  addapter from 6F8G to 6SN7, did that and also I got the ferrite clips as well, but the hum does not go away.  I have tried and tried to search about this topic but have not come up with a solution.

Once again, I am new to tube amp/rolling, don't shoot me while i am falling from a building on flames 

Cheers
Mondrax


----------



## Rossliew

Luck of the draw dude. Could be the tubes themselves - dirty pins perhaps or they just hum.


----------



## mondrax (Jul 20, 2017)

Rossiew, thanks for your reply.  I was concerned that somebody would  reply saying that what i was trying to do will never work.  But your reply gave me an idea, so i picked up the amp and as soon as I had it in my hands the hum went away, that tells me it is a ground issue or perhaps it is to close to a high magnetic field. I am going to try different things and report back.


----------



## Rossliew

Great! Perhaps a relocation will help.


----------



## hypnos1

mondrax said:


> Rossiew, thanks for your reply.  I was concerned that somebody would  reply saying that what i was trying to do will never work.  But your reply gave me an idea, so i picked up the amp and as soon as I had it in my hands the hum went away, that tells me it is a ground issue or perhaps it is to close to a high magnetic field. I am going to try different things and report back.



Hi mondrax, and good to hear from yet another happy Elise owner. 

Sorry to hear of your hum issue with the 6F8G...not many folks seem to have tried these tubes, but they are indeed ranked very highly by the 6SN7 fraternity.
I suspect they aren't more popular than they should be for the very reason you mention - hum, etc., which is the possible downside of tubes with the exposed anode cap and wire...either due to the "antenna" effect, or poor shielding within the adapter or of the wire itself. Additional grounding - or  complicated "ground loop" issues - may need to be addressed (not sure of the best ways around these, alas), or it could indeed be down to proximity of some strong EMI/RFI.

I personally recently encountered a previously non-existent hum problem with my top anode Telefunken EL12 Spezials (in my Euforia), which would come and go without apparent reason...VERY frustrating!...until I finally realised it was when my *headphone cable *came too close to my new Balanced AC Mains conditioner/filter, complete with about 20kg of giant transformer lol!!!...the solution was easy, of course!... It appears certain HP cables can indeed sometimes be the source of such problems, when too close to *any* strong power supply!

And so I hope you manage to trace your own source of the problem, assuming it isn't in fact down to the tubes and/or the adapters...GOOD LUCK!!


----------



## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi mondrax, and good to hear from yet another happy Elise owner.
> 
> Sorry to hear of your hum issue with the 6F8G...not many folks seem to have tried these tubes, but they are indeed ranked very highly by the 6SN7 fraternity.
> I suspect they aren't more popular than they should be for the very reason you mention - hum, etc., which is the possible downside of tubes with the exposed anode cap and wire...either due to the "antenna" effect, or poor shielding within the adapter or of the wire itself. Additional grounding - or  complicated "ground loop" issues - may need to be addressed (not sure of the best ways around these, alas), or it could indeed be down to proximity of some strong EMI/RFI.
> ...


Oh my God this brings back memories!!!! Lol


----------



## frederick-rea

mondrax said:


> Rossiew, thanks for your reply.  I was concerned that somebody would  reply saying that what i was trying to do will never work.  But your reply gave me an idea, so i picked up the amp and as soon as I had it in my hands the hum went away, that tells me it is a ground issue or perhaps it is to close to a high magnetic field. I am going to try different things and report back.


Hi Mondrax
Just use one "choke suppressor" on each cable of the anode on the adapter


----------



## angpsi

Sorry to go off topic, but look what the cat dragged in! Thanks @vl4dimir, much appreciated; now I'll just leave it on over the weekend and see what it comes up with for me on Monday!... Hints of its airy and resolving character are already apparent, let's see if it can do body as well.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 21, 2017)

@mondrax, this is dedicated to your sufferings! The saga of the humming EL12spez was well documented in this here thread in February... It was @frederick-rea who saved the day with his insight on the ferrite chokes!


----------



## pctazhp

@angpsi  Welcome to the Schiit multibit club. If you need more body, maybe @connieflyer will let you borrow his


----------



## pctazhp

I have EL11 driver with round plate (but not mesh like H1's), and EL12 and EL12n powers. I also have the Mrs. X's EL12 spez adapter and the chokes. Now all I need is this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-EL12-spe...091964?hash=item489f0d43bc:g:l-QAAOSwuLZY3fwZ

But since I don't do non-recommended tubes anymore I guess I'll pass. But my motto is never say never


----------



## pctazhp (Jul 21, 2017)

One comment about Schiit multibit DACs. Schiit strongly recommends they be left on 24/7, which I do with my Bimby. But I have also read comments that they occasionally need to be rebooted (turned off for about 30 seconds and then turned back on). I do that when I sense SQ is declining and find it helps.

@angpsi. I hope you will be able to spring for an Eitr. My uneducated, amateur, basically worthless opinion is that it will catapult your DAC into one that is worthy of being paired with a F-A amp


----------



## Rossliew

pctazhp said:


> One comment about Schiit multibit DACs. Schiit strongly recommends they be left on 24/7, which I do with my Bimby. But I have also read comments that they occasionally need to be rebooted (turned off for about 30 seconds and then turned back on). I do that when I sense SQ is declining and find it helps.



Wish i could leave my Bimby on 24/7 but i fear it may overheat or a short-circuit happen somewhere and cause a fire when i'm away at work..God forbid! Having said that, despite the natural and pleasant sounding SQ of the Bimby, i found it lacking in impact and body. It sounded uninspiring at times and i suspect the smaller power supply is contributing to this somewhat. Conversely the Gungnir DS offers a more impactful and fuller bodied presentation at the expense of digital glare. I can only presume the more robust power supply of the Gungnir providing a stronger sense of drive to the musical reproduction that i hear. 

A step up or two to either the Gumby or Yggy may be the answer but my Parasound Zdac v. 1 is giving me so much of the sound i enjoy that i doubt i'd be swapping DACs anytime soon..


----------



## Rossliew

Oops i may have spoken too soon as i just swapped out the Parasound with the diminutive Mojo - i receive an airier expression as though the haze was wiped off the windows yet the sound wasn't strident nor less musical. It sounded more hifi to put it crudely but in a good way  There was greater separation of instruments, more clearer outline of the respective instrument's sonics. Bass remains thumping. Gosh! What has @UntilThen done to me??!!


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> What has @UntilThen done to me??!!



He has just sold you Elise with some of his prize tubes. Now I am having remorse.... 

Enjoy !


----------



## pctazhp

Rossliew said:


> Wish i could leave my Bimby on 24/7 but i fear it may overheat or a short-circuit happen somewhere and cause a fire when i'm away at work..God forbid! Having said that, despite the natural and pleasant sounding SQ of the Bimby, i found it lacking in impact and body. It sounded uninspiring at times and i suspect the smaller power supply is contributing to this somewhat. Conversely the Gungnir DS offers a more impactful and fuller bodied presentation at the expense of digital glare. I can only presume the more robust power supply of the Gungnir providing a stronger sense of drive to the musical reproduction that i hear.
> 
> A step up or two to either the Gumby or Yggy may be the answer but my Parasound Zdac v. 1 is giving me so much of the sound i enjoy that i doubt i'd be swapping DACs anytime soon..



Not sure I understand your concern with leaving Bimby on 24/7. I've never read any report of that creating a hazard. I leave my on all the time, even when I'm away on vacation. I don't think any Schiit multibit DAC can perform at proper level if not left on 24/7. Back in the 70s in my early audiophile days I became acquainted with a guy from southern California, Steve McCormack. He owned a boutique high-end store and ran a company call Mod Squad Audio that specialized in modifying off-the-shelf audio devices. He staunchly believed that solid state electronics lasted far longer if left on 24/7 because of the stress that is caused every time one is turned on. Except for high power amps, I have always left my solid state equipment on 24/7.

I have my doubts that the issue is the Bimby power supply. I think it is much more likely that your Bimby is multibit and is hobbled by not being left on 24/7. I don't experience any of the limitations you describe with my Bimby, particularly with my ASUS sound card USB bypass function feeding directly into Bimby coax input. Having said that, I do plan at some point to upgrade to Gumby multibit with the new Gen 5 USB input.

But, if your your Parasound DAC works for you, probably the mentally healthy thing is to just stick with it.


----------



## Rossliew

pctazhp said:


> Not sure I understand your concern with leaving Bimby on 24/7. I've never read any report of that creating a hazard. I leave my on all the time, even when I'm away on vacation. I don't think any Schiit multibit DAC can perform at proper level if not left on 24/7. Back in the 70s in my early audiophile days I became acquainted with a guy from southern California, Steve McCormack. He owned a boutique high-end store and ran a company call Mod Squad Audio that specialized in modifying off-the-shelf audio devices. He staunchly believed that solid state electronics lasted far longer if left on 24/7 because of the stress that is caused every time one is turned on. Except for high power amps, I have always left my solid state equipment on 24/7.
> 
> I have my doubts that the issue is the Bimby power supply. I think it is much more likely that your Bimby is multibit and is hobbled by not being left on 24/7. I don't experience any of the limitations you describe with my Bimby, particularly with my ASUS sound card USB bypass function feeding directly into Bimby coax input. Having said that, I do plan at some point to upgrade to Gumby multibit with the new Gen 5 USB input.
> 
> But, if your your Parasound DAC works for you, probably the mentally healthy thing is to just stick with it.



Hmm...very, very tempted to try leaving it on then  In this hobby of ours, there is never any rationale thinking...at all


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Hmm...very, very tempted to try leaving it on then  In this hobby of ours, there is never any rationale thinking...at all



Not when you stay up at 2:51am listening to music with your new found Elise. It's a crazy world for crazy audio enthusiasts.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> Not when you stay up at 2:51am listening to music with your new found Elise. It's a crazy world for crazy audio enthusiasts.



Correction..YOU are staying up at 2.51 am..its only 12.51 am here in KL  The night is still young LOL


----------



## pctazhp (Jul 21, 2017)

So far the only thing I've gotten from listing my Elise for sale is some lookie-loos wasting my time. In the interest of science I may hook Elise and Euforia up in series, using one a preamp and the other as amp. If I do, I will make sure my fire extinguisher is in easy reach!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Ross when you get hold of the Mullard ECC31, do use it with care. I wouldn't even recommend using it as it would push the limits of Elise current draw.

However that is a very new pair and you can sell it to the Woo Audio Wa22 camp. They like that tube.


----------



## whirlwind (Jul 21, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Ross when you get hold of the Mullard ECC31, do use it with care. I wouldn't even recommend using it as it would push the limits of Elise current draw.
> 
> However that is a very new pair and you can sell it to the Woo Audio Wa22 camp. They like that tube.




Those are wonderful tubes.

I never met a Mullard that I didn't like


----------



## mordy (Jul 21, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> So far the only thing I've gotten from listing my Elise for sale is some lookie-loos wasting my time. In the interest of science I may hook Elise and Euforia up in series, using one a preamp and the other as amp. If I do, I will make sure my fire extinguisher is in easy reach!!!


Hi pct,






I did not have to use it...lol. Hooked up the Elise as a preamp to the Four. *No sonic benefits to be derived from this.* The Euforia sounded like, well, the Euforia, but with a flabby bass.
Both amps share many sonic characteristics, but the Euforia always comes out as more fleshed out with better control of the bass.
And in this case the total was worse than the sum of the parts, or whatever the expression is.
Now you have to dig out your old quad set of speakers (remember quadraphonic?) and bi-preamp your system, using the Elise and Four separately....
PS: After further listening to each amp separately I make the following observation: 
The Elise sounds very good and satisfying. Then I immediatley switch my headphones to the Euforia (both amps are turned on and working independently) and the sound gets better and has more of everything. The funny thing is that the Elise, even though sounding thinner, still is very pleasing. But the Four is gooder, as my grandchildren say.
IF GOOD IS GOOD, ISN'T BETTER BETTER?


----------



## pctazhp

Quadraphonic!!!! Absolutely brilliant Mordy. I'm ordering this immediately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenwood-KSQ...028085?hash=item283ae8d075:g:wJoAAOSwbFhZcBoW

Yeah. As my drug dealer - I mean stereo store buddy - used to say about everything new that came into his store, Euforia is more better than Elise.

I love your fire extinguisher. Is it for sale????


----------



## mordy

pctazhp said:


> Quadraphonic!!!! Absolutely brilliant Mordy. I'm ordering this immediately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kenwood-KSQ...028085?hash=item283ae8d075:g:wJoAAOSwbFhZcBoW
> 
> Yeah. As my drug dealer - I mean stereo store buddy - used to say about everything new that came into his store, Euforia is more better than Elise.
> 
> I love your fire extinguisher. Is it for sale????


The picture was free on Google. Costco usually have them for around $20.LOL
 I seem to remember that people who connected two preamps in series always ended up with exaggerated effects. Sometimes they initially liked it, but after a while this was always discarded


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> The picture was free on Google. Costco usually have them for around $20.LOL
> I seem to remember that people who connected two preamps in series always ended up with exaggerated effects. Sometimes they initially liked it, but after a while this was always discarded



I'm actually just being silly. Trying to pretend I could care less if my Elise sells or not!!! Right now it is sitting proudly on a nearby table sporting the Psvanes that came with my Euforia and the original power tubes. It looks quite handsome.
Next time my desktop catches on fire I'll remember to run to Costco


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> Ross when you get hold of the Mullard ECC31, do use it with care. I wouldn't even recommend using it as it would push the limits of Elise current draw.
> 
> However that is a very new pair and you can sell it to the Woo Audio Wa22 camp. They like that tube.



Oh in that case it's up for sale the minute it arrives, don't want to risk blowing up such a wonderful amp lol


----------



## canthearyou

One of the "Lookie loos" wasting pctazhp's time here. In a few words, what would I miss by buying his Elise right now or saving up a good bit more and buying a Euforia?


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> One of the "Lookie loos" wasting pctazhp's time here. In a few words, what would I miss by buying his Elise right now or saving up a good bit more and buying a Euforia?


Hi cty,

As I mentioned above, the Elise, even though the Euforia sounds better, has a very satisfying presentation that can make a person very happy and not leave a feeling that something is missing. In other words, comparing the two amps directly, I am not missing anything when listening to the Elise, although, when comparing it to the Euforia, I realize that the Euforia sounds more fleshed out.
From a price point of view, you cannot go wrong with the used Elise.


----------



## angpsi (Jul 23, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi cty,
> 
> As I mentioned above, the Elise, even though the Euforia sounds better, has a very satisfying presentation that can make a person very happy and not leave a feeling that something is missing. In other words, comparing the two amps directly, I am not missing anything when listening to the Elise, although, when comparing it to the Euforia, I realize that the Euforia sounds more fleshed out.
> From a price point of view, you cannot go wrong with the used Elise.


I'll second that, although I feel the price of a second hand Elise is more of a teaser to jump from the Espressivo than saving money from getting the Euforia. On the other hand, new Euforia is practically 2X the price of a second hand Elise - that is another $800, some people buy whole systems with that kind of money! Plus you also need to consider another 1-2K minimum budget to bring the rest of the gear up to speed (roughly est. 1k per item).

In this regard, I know I won't be upgrading anytime soon, especially considering the sound coming out of my Elise right now. Maybe mid-fi by summit-fi standards, but when seen in context the Elise is a wonderful ticket to audio nirvana!


----------



## pctazhp (Jul 23, 2017)

canthearyou said:


> One of the "Lookie loos" wasting pctazhp's time here. In a few words, what would I miss by buying his Elise right now or saving up a good bit more and buying a Euforia?



Don't take my warped sense of humor too seriously. I acquired it from @connieflyer 

For me, the determining factor in any audio purchase is how something contributes to my emotional connection to music. Contrary to the honored opinion of some of my fellow thread members I don't think the difference between Elise and Euforia is quite as much as they do. And both Elise and Euforia, in somewhat different ways, enhance my emotional connection to music. For me, Elise has its own quality of magic that is distinct and produces much musical enjoyment. There is a certain solid quality to it that I find a little lacking in the more "airy" Euforia.

Having said that, I obviously like Euforia overall better than Elise - otherwise I'd be trying to sell Euforia instead. In an obvious statement against my own self-interest (in selling Elise) if I were starting from scratch and both Elise and Euforia were available (Euforia wasn't when I bought Elise) I would save up for Euforia. But it depends a lot on budget and what one is comfortable with. I think my selling price of $550 for Elise which includes the Psvane drivers that came with Euforia is a great deal. But obviously I haven't found any one else yet who agrees


----------



## connieflyer (Jul 23, 2017)

Also having had both amplifiers my thoughts are that they are two separate amplifiers. They're two distinct products. The Euforia started out as an upgrade to the Elise amplifier but as more and more parts were changed it became apparent to Feliks that this was in fact a new amplifier even though it looked like the other one, and was based on the old one. If you want to save your money until you can afford the higher price amplifier that's all well and good , will you get the difference between the two amplifiers, and enjoyment ,that is a total personal call. If you're looking at the difference in price from a used Elise compared to a new Euforia that's a huge jump in price, and only you have can make up in your own  mind, that it's that much better. For myself the upgrade happened at a period in time in my life where my wife having recently passed ,I was in an emotional upheaval. Trying to find my way forward ,upgrading the amplifier, new tubes it was all part of the same thing. Am I sorry that I upgraded to the Euforia, no. I have now spent more on tube rolling than I did on the original AMP in fact probably more than I spent on both amps combined. If you were to take the Elise and use the top of the line tubes, I don't see where you could possibly be disappointed with that. This is of  course is my own personal opinion and everybody is going to be a little bit different.


----------



## canthearyou

Thanks for the replies!


----------



## connieflyer

You are welcome I hope this helps put some information in your pocket. Just like everything else about audio everything is a perception everybody's perception is different but it would seem that the majority of people still believe that a lease is a very fine sounding amplifier I do as well. Good luck with your decision if you need any more information feel free to ask that's what we're all here for take care sir


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> You are welcome I hope this helps put some information in your pocket. Just like everything else about audio everything is a perception everybody's perception is different but it would seem that the majority of people still believe that *a lease *is a very fine sounding amplifier I do as well. Good luck with your decision if you need any more information feel free to ask that's what we're all here for take care sir



Some of us who don't use voice to text software also believe that Elise is a great amp. I keep trying to get a hold of an A Lease amp, but everyone I ask keeps handing me a bunch of paper.


----------



## connieflyer

"Connie is coming"


----------



## connieflyer

This is an informative write up of the Elise. http://headfonics.com/2016/12/the-elise-by-feliks-audio/


----------



## pctazhp

Thanks CF. I've added that review and the Sound Perfections review mentioned on the FA site to my listing. It's been a long time since I heard Elise with the stock drivers, but from what I can remember substituting the Psvane drivers that came with Euforia (included in my listing) is a definite step up.


----------



## connieflyer

I agree with your summation on the psvane tubes,


----------



## canthearyou

Let's say on a scale of sound performance the Euforia is 100(max). What would the Elise rank? Stock vs. stock.


----------



## connieflyer

For myself with stock tubes on both I would say the Elise was probably 85 - 90%. It's a great sounding amplifier. That last 10% to get to 100 is usually pretty expensive. But that's just my opinion. Did you have a chance to read that review that I posted is very interesting guy really gave the Alise a very good rating.


----------



## Gibson59

Anyone have experience with both the Elise and the Woo WA6? I'm looking closely at both of these amps to go with my HE1000 v2.  I've heard the WA6 pairing but not the Elise. This won't be my primary amp but rather a tube alternative to my solid state when I wanna mix things up.


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## canthearyou (Jul 24, 2017)

connieflyer said:


> For myself with stock tubes on both I would say the Elise was probably 85 - 90%. It's a great sounding amplifier. That last 10% to get to 100 is usually pretty expensive. But that's just my opinion. Did you have a chance to read that review that I posted is very interesting guy really gave the Alise a very good rating.



I did and thank you! Now to see if I can work out a deal with pctazhp.


----------



## Althalus

weissja36 said:


> Anyone have experience with both the Elise and the Woo WA6? I'm looking closely at both of these amps to go with my HE1000 v2.  I've heard the WA6 pairing but not the Elise. This won't be my primary amp but rather a tube alternative to my solid state when I wanna mix things up.



To your question, no but I believe @UntilThen did compare these amps once. You should ask him. 
I 'm however worried about your HE 1000 with the Elise, 35ohms is low. Maybe others can tell more. 

Althalus


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 24, 2017)

Althalus said:


> To your question, no but I believe @UntilThen did compare these amps once. You should ask him.
> I 'm however worried about your HE 1000 with the Elise, 35ohms is low. Maybe others can tell more.
> 
> Althalus



I heard Woo Audio Wa6 at the Sydney meet 2016. That meet, I brought Elise to showcase to the folks gathered there. However there were too many good gear there, including Blue Hawaii and Stax SR-007 and 009. Very few people came and listen to Elise. 

Wa6 being not an OTL amp, sounded bright and glaring to my ears. Elise is your quintessent tube amp. I wouldn't characterise Elise as overly warm and lush. It has the right voicing with a certain wetness and lushness to it that makes it very pleasant on the ears... with many headphones. I was even able to enjoy HE560 with it. Elise's specs is 32 to 600 ohms, so it should be able to drive the HE 1000. How good a pairing that would be is another question. The HE-1000 is supposed to be soft and caressing sounding and Tyll seems to think it paired well with the bright and revealing GSX MkII.

Between Wa6 and Elise, I have no hesitation to take Elise anytime, anyday, anyhow..... try a high impedance headphone such as HD800, T1 or HD600 with Elise and you will be very happy.


----------



## canthearyou

Woo hoo! Thank you!


----------



## pctazhp

I'm a push over. Deal reached with @canthearyou


----------



## canthearyou

pctazhp said:


> I'm a push over. Deal reached with @canthearyou



Very much appreciated! I'm just a tad bit excited! Lol

Soon to be set-up: Tidal or Foobar DSD>Singxer X-1>Gustard X20 Pro>Elise>McIntosh MHP1000.

Will probably upgrade to Singxer F-1 or SU-1


----------



## pctazhp

canthearyou said:


> Very much appreciated! I'm just a tad bit excited! Lol
> 
> Soon to be set-up: Tidal or Foobar DSD>Singxer X-1>Gustard X20 Pro>Elise>McIntosh MHP1000.
> 
> Will probably upgrade to Singxer F-1 or SU-1



You are now an official member of our cult. Did we forget to tell you THERE'S NO ESCAPE?????


----------



## canthearyou

pctazhp said:


> You are now an official member of our cult. Did we forget to tell you THERE'S NO ESCAPE?????



My feelings of excitement have now turned to nervousness and despair.


----------



## pctazhp

canthearyou said:


> My feelings of excitement have now turned to nervousness and despair.



Don't worry. We are a kind and caring group


----------



## connieflyer

Specs for Elise, 32 ohm  not 23 ohm
Technical Specification - Model 2017

    Input Impedance: 100 kOhm
    Frequency response: 10 Hz - 60 Khz +/- 3 dB (300 ohm)
    Power output: 200mW
    Pre-amp Gain: 20dB
    THD: 0.4 % (300 ohm, 20 mW)
    Supported headphones impedance: 32 - 600 ohm
    Improved noise cancelling construction
    Headphones output: Jack 6.3mm
    AC: 230V/120V (power cord included)
    Dimensions: 310x205x170 [mm]
    3 years warranty


----------



## angpsi (Jul 24, 2017)

canthearyou said:


> My feelings of excitement have now turned to nervousness and despair.


I sympathize @canthearyou, they told me the same when I got my Elise in December; and I'm here to let you know that they _absolutely meant it!_ But then, this was my good fortune; these "rich uncles" are absolutely lovely and being part of this group is very much a seminal piece in the overall enjoyment of FA amps!

As always, typing out of my phone, in my bed, instead of going to sleep, at 1:50am, on a work day! - Welcome!


----------



## angpsi

canthearyou said:


> Soon to be set-up: Tidal or Foobar DSD>Singxer X-1>Gustard X20 Pro>Elise>McIntosh MHP1000


Btw, McIntosh - I'm intrigued! How do they sound like? Were they part of your rationale for going with the Elise?


----------



## canthearyou

angpsi said:


> Btw, McIntosh - I'm intrigued! How do they sound like? Were they part of your rationale for going with the Elise?



I was lucky enough to win them at a local Head-fi meet. At first I didn't like them,  they came off very bright and forward. But I quickly learned I didn't need to blast them to hear everything in my music. Once I lower the volume they kind of disappear on my head. I really enjoy them a lot. The amp I was using had the tendency to be sibilant. I tried my lowly O2 amp and it is actually very natural and clean.


----------



## canthearyou

My Elise should be here today. I asked the wife to call in so she can sign for it. Lol


----------



## angpsi

canthearyou said:


> My Elise should be here today. I asked the wife to call in so she can sign for it. Lol


A happy occasion then! Be sure to use her moderately (the Elise, not your wife!); I know I started off very enthusiastically and almost tortured her at first. I was later advised that I shouldn't do that, and that tube amps are delicate creatures!


----------



## angpsi (Jul 26, 2017)

So I've been listening to my Mimby and even attached it to my stereo system. Not bad at all, actually it's a quite interesting piece of equipment. IMO it's exactly what it is: an entry level DAC on a sound signature that's definitely worth exploring. That being said, it's extraordinarily good for what it does, and it got quite close to my 12 y.o. Benchmark DAC1 (no, they don't get better with age!). On the same comparison the Meridian couldn't cut it; it's definitely worth its price but it just couldn't compete with the Mimby on my stereo system. Things are somewhat different with the Elise though; the Mimby renders a 'softer' image where the Meridian and the Benchmark render a more dynamic sound. If it makes sense, I'd say the  Mimby renders more air in the same way that the Tung-Sol 5998 does: an open, more euphonic maybe, 'airier' performance instead of the pace-y and tight sound the 6080 gives out. In fact I'm intrigued to give the TS another go, they've been sitting still for quite some time as I do all my listening with the GEC 6080.

Take notice though, on a different note I'm starting to believe that all the Mimby does is whet the appetite for bigger and pricier things!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Take notice though, on a different note I'm starting to believe that all the Mimby does is whet the appetite for bigger and pricier things!



Take a deep breath, leave it on 24/7, and give it a few days before you start selling bikes, daughter, wife and kitchen appliances.


----------



## hypnos1

Rossliew said:


> Oops i may have spoken too soon as i just swapped out the Parasound with the diminutive Mojo - i receive an airier expression as though the haze was wiped off the windows yet the sound wasn't strident nor less musical. It sounded more hifi to put it crudely but in a good way  There was greater separation of instruments, more clearer outline of the respective instrument's sonics. Bass remains thumping. Gosh! What has @UntilThen done to me??!!



Hi Rossliew...can't go into much depth just now (I hear deep sighs of relief lol!! ), but if you find Mojo good, Hugo2 would simply blow you away!. What Chord's circuit designer has managed to achieve (after many years!) implementing the latest "FPGA" digital technology is quite astounding. And given direct out to headphones (of all impedences) is challenging some rather expensive tube amps, this tech would certainly appear to be the future of audio at all levels (audio being only one area of application)....nuff said!! ...


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Take a deep breath, leave it on 24/7, and give it a few days before you start selling bikes, daughter, wife and kitchen appliances.


Ok, I'll wait then... A bit pitchy on the highs, but I'll give it some time; sounds like all the other experiences mentioned here and elsewhere...

On a different note, this is completely off topic but I had to share!


----------



## canthearyou

Me right now.


----------



## angpsi

canthearyou said:


> Me right now.


Looking good!


----------



## canthearyou

angpsi said:


> Ok, I'll wait then... A bit pitchy on the highs, but I'll give it some time; sounds like all the other experiences mentioned here and elsewhere...
> 
> On a different note, this is completely off topic but I had to share!




That was cool! And those look awesome!


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## canthearyou (Jul 27, 2017)

Have a question for you guys. What causes a random distortion only in the right driver. It sounds like a slow, quiet pop. I've swapped tubes between left and right side and it's still there. It comes and goes in spurts. Sometimes it's dead quiet, and sometimes during quiet passages I can hear it. I can also hear it with no music playing. 

The noise sounds like the pop/crunch of dirty vinyl, only much quieter. 

UPDATE: Possible dirty/weak spot(s) on volume pot. I lowered the output on the DAC and turned the volume up to 12 o'clock on the Elise and so far I don't hear the noise.

UPDATE: Seems that was not the issue. I will continue to troubleshoot.


----------



## pctazhp

Just sent you a PM.


----------



## connieflyer

canthearyou said:


> Have a question for you guys. What causes a random distortion only in the right driver. It sounds like a slow, quiet pop. I've swapped tubes between left and right side and it's still there. It comes and goes in spurts. Sometimes it's dead quiet, and sometimes during quiet passages I can hear it. I can also hear it with no music playing.
> I have found over the (many) years, that, with the power off, if I rotate the knob back and forth several times, it will most times fix it. It is usually a small amount of oxidation or dirt-dust on the contacts. If you open up the chasis , you can spray it with a chemical like de-oxite and that will work if it is the contacts.
> 
> The noise sounds like the pop/crunch of dirty vinyl, only much quieter.
> ...


----------



## connieflyer

angpsi said:


> Ok, I'll wait then... A bit pitchy on the highs, but I'll give it some time; sounds like all the other experiences mentioned here and elsewhere...
> 
> On a different note, this is completely off topic but I had to share!
> They have a dealer in New York City, and I am itching to have a listen, you talk about tube rolling getting expensive, you buy these speakers then you need the whole system by them   http://www.mbl-northamerica.com/


----------



## canthearyou

I have DeOxit on the way. Gonna give that a try.


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer Have you ever tried De-Oxit on your weak knees????


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> @connieflyer Have you ever tried De-Oxit on your weak knees????


Hahaha!


----------



## connieflyer

PCT, obviously, you don't know how small the spray cannister is, in relation to the size of the weak knee.  WOuld not have enough. However, did try WD-40 and that worked but it would always seep through me suit. Good news is, this monday, will be enough time between SynVsc One shot. Health insurance only allows twice a year, had to wait all this month, but this week I will get another injection, under the knee cap, hope he is a good shot, time before last, he was off by a vry small amount, and almost came off the table, it hurt so  much. Hopefully it will last longer. Not as bad as it sounds,(yes it is!) when he first takes the syringe out, that needle looks like it is a foot long. It is not, only about three inches.  Can't get the knee replaced because of Connor. What you going to do. Pain becomes a factor in life.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> PCT, obviously, you don't know how small the spray cannister is, in relation to the size of the weak knee.  WOuld not have enough. However, did try WD-40 and that worked but it would always seep through me suit. Good news is, this monday, will be enough time between SynVsc One shot. Health insurance only allows twice a year, had to wait all this month, but this week I will get another injection, under the knee cap, hope he is a good shot, time before last, he was off by a vry small amount, and almost came off the table, it hurt so  much. Hopefully it will last longer. Not as bad as it sounds,(yes it is!) when he first takes the syringe out, that needle looks like it is a foot long. It is not, only about three inches.  Can't get the knee replaced because of Connor. What you going to do. Pain becomes a factor in life.



It's beyond inspiring to wake up in the morning and read such a graphic post about pain. You have gained my sympathy and I'm sure the sympathy of the entire vast F-A community.

You are right that I don't know how small the DeOxIT cannister is. Perhaps you could help me get a better idea. Is it anywhere close to this?




I use that for my weak back. BTW, do you know how long I've had my weak back? Oh, I'd say about a week back.


----------



## connieflyer

You definitely need more coffee! If you spray that deoxit in your ears it will clean out the cobwebs and help you to think clearer, in which case your music will sound clearer so I have given you an audio file tip and I hope you enjoy it! And yes I am using speech to text and I don't care what it looks like!


----------



## pctazhp

I sprayed it all over my HD800S. Now I don't hear anything, but my ears have a very pleasant, moist feel. I use a keyboard and as you can tell it doesn't produce much that makes sense. Maybe I should try voice to text.


----------



## pctazhp

CF:  I'm sure you have been missing this song:


----------



## connieflyer

OMG! Have not heard that in ages! Hope it is a least that long before I hear it again! You might consider speech to text it is a more accurate compilation of the thoughts from which flow from your head to your mouth without something in between like your fingers. I know you subscribe to the old adage let your fingers do the walking, but you must conserve your energy, as you get older you will need as much of your faculties as you can muster ketchup or mayonnaise!


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I know you subscribe to the old adage let your fingers do the walking



You and I are probably the only ones who have a clue as to where that came from. But then again, you and I are the only ones still here. Have a good morning, my friend.


----------



## connieflyer

same to you my friend have a great day, time for the exercise routine and then yard work oh and laundry to how wonderful. Talk to you later old man


----------



## mordy

connieflyer said:


> same to you my friend have a great day, time for the exercise routine and then yard work oh and laundry to how wonderful. Talk to you later old man





pctazhp said:


> You and I are probably the only ones who have a clue as to where that came from. But then again, you and I are the only ones still here. Have a good morning, my friend.


Well well, I am also around.....

The chewing gum song brings back memories:


Lonnie Donegan - Putting on the Style


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys, it's been a little while since I checked in because I was caught with Mimby related stuff! In regard to the Elise however, lately I've been experiencing more than often a poor connection on the #1 (left driver) tube socket. Since the effect remains even if I switch tubes, I believe it must be a problem with the connectors inside the socket. When I wiggle the tube, it ultimately makes a connection and turns on; but I'm afraid this just makes things worse since doing it should probably result in more loosening of the connector.

Do you have any ideas / fixes that don't include sending the amp back to FA?


----------



## angpsi

On a different note, maybe I'm throwing good money away here, or I'm gradually getting hooked to the Schiit ecosystem, but I just ordered an EITR!


----------



## Oskari

Dirty socket? Faulty socket? Loose solder connection?

Does the socket feel loose? Can you see inside?


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> Dirty socket? Faulty socket? Loose solder connection?
> 
> Does the socket feel loose? Can you see inside?


It looks like it has a good grip as I put tubes in or take them out, although it does afford some normal amount of wiggling. Can't really see inside, but I also don't know what to look for.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> On a different note, maybe I'm throwing good money away here, or I'm gradually getting hooked to the Schiit ecosystem, but I just ordered an EITR!



I don't think you are at all throwing good money away. As I have said before, both the USB by-pass function of my ASUS board and my Holo Audio DDC produce a significant improvement in SQ. I suspect Eitr may be even better. It is getting high praise on the Schiit threads from early users.

Sorry about the socket problem. As @Oskari said, it's unclear whether the problem is with the socket itself or a loose solder connection. But don't worry if you have to send it back to Poland. @connieflyer will send you his Euforia to use while your Elise is gone.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> It looks like it has a good grip as I put tubes in or take them out, although it does afford some normal amount of wiggling. Can't really see inside, but I also don't know what to look for.



I never had Elise or Euforia open. But it seems to me you could open Elise and look at the solder connections to the problem socket. That's what I would do before deciding to return it to Poland. Seems to me it should be pretty easy to use a low power solder iron to re-solder the connections. Although I would definitely get consent from Lukasz to do that so as not to void your warranty.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Can't really see inside, but I also don't know what to look for.


Bent forks inside the socket, for example. (Those connectors.)


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> I never had Elise or Euforia open. But it seems to me you could open Elise and look at the solder connections to the problem socket. That's what I would do before deciding to return it to Poland. Seems to me it should be pretty easy to use a low power solder iron to re-solder the connections. Although I would definitely get consent from Lukasz to do that so as not to void your warranty.


I agree.


----------



## connieflyer (Jul 31, 2017)

Sockets do loosen up over time and use. I never had one get so lose as to not make contact like that. Back in the day, we are talking 1960-75 we used to take a pair of very fine jewelers needlenose pliers , or, jewelers screw driver and GENTLY pinch the contacts together, just a little. If this does not help, then may be a bad solder joint, not unheard of, but happens.  As far as the Schiit Eitr goes, I got a refund for mine. The drivers would not install, it could not find the CMedia device error. Common apparently, saw this error from others on their forum. Driver problem, probably,


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> Sockets do loosen up over time and use. I never had one get so lose as to not make contact like that. Back in the day, we are talking 1960-75 we used to take a pair of very fine jewelers needlenose pliers , or, jewelers screw driver and GENTLY pinch the contacts together, just a little. If this does not help, then may be a bad solder joint, not unheard of, but happens.


Did the pinching thing and it works, got a firmer grip on the tubes now and everything works as before. Hopefully I won't have to repeat the process, besides I don't see the tubes going anywhere any time soon!


----------



## angpsi

So where does one go from the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w? Bendix slotted graphite plates and TS VT231 black round plates? Am I right to believe that these are very comparable to the sound signature I got in my system right now?


----------



## pctazhp

@connieflyer is pure genius!!! He is my go-to man for all things - audio and non-audio


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> So where does one go from the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w? Bendix slotted graphite plates and TS VT231 black round plates? Am I right to believe that these are very comparable to the sound signature I got in my system right now?



I'm sure you will get different opinions on this. Personally, I like my GEC 6080s better than Bendix slotted graphite plates. Haven't tried the TS round plates, but they are seem to be highly regarded.


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Did the pinching thing and it works, got a firmer grip on the tubes now and everything works as before. Hopefully I won't have to repeat the process, besides I don't see the tubes going anywhere any time soon!


Well done!


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I'm sure you will get different opinions on this. Personally, I like my GEC 6080s better than Bendix slotted graphite plates. Haven't tried the TS round plates, but they are seem to be highly regarded.


_Very_ expensive though...


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> Well done!


Well I was lucky enough to have the needlenose pliers too! Any opinions on tubes with similar signature or better than GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w now that I'm changing tier?


----------



## pctazhp (Jul 31, 2017)

angpsi said:


> _Very_ expensive though...



Keep in mind this is based just on my mood today. But I'm loving my normal TS short bottle 6SN7s today. It's been a while since I tried them, but I'm kind of feeling I like them more than, at least today, than either of my Sylvania drivers. I also have a long bottle pair, but one of them decided to hide from me so I've got to hunt it down.

You've got a pretty impressive set of tubes right now and you've got Eitr on the way, so maybe hold tight and keep your eyes out for a possible bargain on the TS round plates. They should be at the top of the 6SN7 heap in terms of SQ.

Edit:  I may be all wet on this. Actually I know I am because I just spilled a glass of water all over me. But I'm guessing Eitr is going to make a bigger improvement than any new tubes. Your kilometers may vary


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Any opinions on tubes with similar signature or better than GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w now that I'm changing tier?


I can't really help you there. I would like to hear the STC/Brimar 6SN7 types (but probably won't).


----------



## connieflyer

Going up the scale on the GEC 6080 would be the GEC 6AS7g I have both and do prefer the 6as7, but not by much.  Knowing what I hear, if I was going to buy one pair of the other, the cheaper 6080 would win out. The ts rp are supposed to be very good, but at the price they want for them, I have been inclined to pass.  The Sylvania's are very good, I am using the VT231's and like them very much, nice clear and concise. The equal to those, if you want a slightly warmer sound, would be the RCA 1940-49 vt 231 smoked grey glass.  I like these more than even my K-R vt231's. THe flavor of all these tubes are just a little different, but not world's apart. A  better headphone will make a much bigger difference.  I would suggest looking for a used Sennheiser 800 or 800s, or perhaps a Beyerdynamic T1. The Senn 600 while a good headphone, there are much better choices if you want to make a substantial difference. The upgrade in tubes, while noticeable, will not be near as large as a new phone. The 800 while not the newest, is still regarded as having the best sound stage, and I love it. I have had the Senn  hd380pro, 650,700, and 800 as well as the Beyer T1 and prefer the 800 over all that I have had. If you can find a used pair in good condition should be able to get one for what you would pay for a choice ts rp pair. Mind you, this is my personal opinion, so if you try it and don't like it, I am living with PCT now, so you can bomb his place in a couple of months!


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> I can't really help you there. I would like to hear the STC/Brimar 6SN7 types (but probably won't).


Such a price range though! I'll probably have to study, they all look similar at first glance... I'm guessing the yitry variety would be the most coveted one?


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> A  better headphone will make a much bigger difference.  I would suggest looking for a used Sennheiser 800 or 800s, or perhaps a Beyerdynamic T1. (...) The 800 while not the newest, is still regarded as having the best sound stage, and I love it. I have had the Senn  hd380pro, 650,700, and 800 as well as the Beyer T1 and prefer the 800 over all that I have had. If you can find a used pair in good condition should be able to get one for what you would pay for a choice ts rp pair.(...)


I've been looking around for an HD800 bargain long time now but the best I got is still southward of $800. Unfortunately at the moment I'd be crazy to spend more than $50 on anything, so it all comes down to saving up and selling gear. Mind you that to fund the Mimby / Either I'm sending my other tubes to @Althalus so that he also gets an education! Now all I'm left with are the stock set w/ Psvane, a pair of Siemens EL12n, a pair of TFK EL12, and the RCA 6080 plus one Westinghouse 6080 I got when I first started experimenting with tube rolling.

I wonder how much life do the GEC / Sylvania tubes got in them? Perhaps I should consider stocking up on these?


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> It looks like it has a good grip as I put tubes in or take them out, although it does afford some normal amount of wiggling. Can't really see inside, but I also don't know what to look for.


Hi angpsi,

I am just thinking aloud here - if it is lose contact inside the socket, maybe a socket saver would help. If you could jiggle the socket saver in the right position, you could then put the tube into the socket saver while holding the socket saver in position. Not elegant, but better than sending the amp back to Poland.....
Maybe even adding a very thin wire to a socket saver pin to make it more secure in the right position.


angpsi said:


> So where does one go from the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w? Bendix slotted graphite plates and TS VT231 black round plates? Am I right to believe that these are very comparable to the sound signature I got in my system right now?


Foton 6H8C and RCA 6AS7G


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Such a price range though! I'll probably have to study, they all look similar at first glance... I'm guessing the yitry variety would be the most coveted one?


That's the Footscray type. They also have the Oldway type.


----------



## mordy (Jul 31, 2017)

angpsi said:


> I've been looking around for an HD800 bargain long time now but the best I got is still southward of $800. Unfortunately at the moment I'd be crazy to spend more than $50 on anything, so it all comes down to saving up and selling gear. Mind you that to fund the Mimby / Either I'm sending my other tubes to @Althalus so that he also gets an education! Now all I'm left with are the stock set w/ Psvane, a pair of Siemens EL12n, a pair of TFK EL12, and the RCA 6080 plus one Westinghouse 6080 I got when I first started experimenting with tube rolling.
> 
> I wonder how much life do the GEC / Sylvania tubes got in them? Perhaps I should consider stocking up on these?


Hi angpsi,

Re tubes, except for the occasional one that slipped out of the fingers and fell and broke, I have yet to hear from people on this forum that they wore out a tube. The older 6AS7/6080 tubes should be good for 5000-10000 hours, and the the 6SN7 type tubes for 5000 hours.
Have been looking for a used pair of HD800 - the going low price range is around $500-600, but haven't found the right buy yet. Was lucky to find a like new Beyerdynamic T1 Gen 1 for $310. This headphone changed my perception of headphones, and I now prefer it to my speakers.

It occurs to me that changing headphones is akin to getting a new high end speaker system at a much lower price. Ordered a HD650 for $200 from Massdrop (this deal is ending today in 9 hours - over 20,000(!) ordered.).

Happy to hear that you were able to solve your problem with the socket!


----------



## angpsi

Oskari said:


> That's the Footscray type. They also have the Oldway type.


Same signature, from what you gather / heard? There are some cheaper similar looking variants also. Just being lazy here, I should probably read more...


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> 
> Re tubes, except for the occasional one that slipped out of the fingers and fell and broke, I have yet to hear from people on this forum that they wore out a tube. The older 6AS7/6080 tubes should be good for 5000-10000 hours, and the the 6SN7 type tubes for 5000 hours.
> Have been looking for a used pair of HD800 - the going low price range is around $500-600, but haven't found the right buy yet. Was lucky to find a like new Beyerdynamic T1 Gen 1 for $310. This headphone changed my perception of headphones, and I now prefer it to my speakers.
> ...


Thanks mordy, the socket thing wasn't a big deal after all. The HD800 are definitely on my list, hoping to get to audition them sometime at a local meet. Gotta say though, the Beyers are not that well regarded in the Greek head-fi community, people say their highs are borderline unbearable!


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Foton 6H8C and RCA 6AS7G


Fotons, eh? I was looking into Meltz for so long it's almost insulting how cheap these tubes are in comparison!


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> Same signature, from what you gather / heard? There are some cheaper similar looking variants also. Just being lazy here, I should probably read more...


Don't know. Haven't heard either.


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> Thanks mordy, the socket thing wasn't a big deal after all. The HD800 are definitely on my list, hoping to get to audition them sometime at a local meet. Gotta say though, the Beyers are not that well regarded in the Greek head-fi community, people say their highs are borderline unbearable!


Hi angpsi,

The T1 should be perfect for me then; my hearing has the typical treble fall off for my age lol!


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys, for those of you based in the EU, Sonority Audio is selling the Schiit Eitr on back order for €185 instead of €219. Shipments start on Aug 15-30. http://www.schiit-europe.com/index.php/producten/eitr-usb-to-spdif-converter.html


----------



## whirlwind

angpsi said:


> So where does one go from the GEC 6080 / Sylvania 6sn7w? Bendix slotted graphite plates and TS VT231 black round plates? Am I right to believe that these are very comparable to the sound signature I got in my system right now?



Hi angpsi.

They will sound different, but they will sound wonderful.

The TSBGRP is one of the best SN7 driver tubes IMHO.  It is so well balanced across the whole spectrum and the since of space is wonderful.

You may get lucky and find some that are rebranded that may be cheaper....they seem to bring lots of money these days, but there is no denying their wonderful sound.

Usually when I put mine in my amp, they stay in for a month or so.

Good luck on your hunt, if you decide to do so.


----------



## mondrax

@canthearyou folks in here are great and always willing to help. 

 BtW the problem hum with the VT99 it is fixed, I had few issues the ferrite chokes reduced a lot of the hum. I had some other issues with the outlet ground, but fixed it too.  Now i am back to rolling some tubes, RCA's and Mullards, i am back on the play ground ))

Cheers


----------



## Oskari

_Nacht über Deutschland_


----------



## connieflyer

Cool, but where are the english subtitles!?


----------



## connieflyer

PCT, I bet you did not know I could speak and sing French!


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Cool, but where are the english subtitles!?


Here (translation by google): https://translate.google.com/transl...chener-freiheit-nacht-uber-deutschland-lyrics


----------



## connieflyer

FLying Pan Am I wonder if they were flying a Constellation?


----------



## angpsi

Just dropping a line to say hi! Been away on vacation for the last week, will be returning back to base by next week. Feeling inclined to try out some sleeper tubes, e.g. Hitachi or Channel Master. Cheers!


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> FLying Pan Am I wonder if they were flying a Constellation?


PA737 seems to have been a late 70s Berlin—Munich flight flown with a 727.


----------



## connieflyer

Aircraft is too new for my flights!!


----------



## pctazhp

Here's my contribution for the day on the long and winding road to 10,000 posts.


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## connieflyer

Another great song by a great artist. Thanks for that. I wonder if they would allow us to combine our posts totals so we could get to 10000 sooner? Probably not. But never hurts to ask.


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> Fotons, eh? I was looking into Meltz for so long it's almost insulting how cheap these tubes are in comparison!


Hi Angpsi,

Don't be insulted that a tube is too cheap to be good lol! These Fotons are a steal and really hold their own very well. Paired with the humble RCA 6AS7G tubes they really sound great with a wonderful low mid range bass.
I don't miss my 6AS7 GEC/Sylvania combo with these tubes.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> Aircraft is too new for my flights!!


This is about a guy on a bus:


_Matkustaja_

The same with lyrics and a translation (not perfect):


----------



## mordy (Aug 13, 2017)

Need a little help:

I have an old 1980 Sony integrated amp that works as a preamp and power amp. After some 35 years plus it is starting to give me trouble with a bad switch that sometimes cuts out one or both channels.
This amp has facilities for an external equalizer, and this is where I have my Elise connected.

I have another 80's system sitting around that I acquired some time back, but I have not hooked it up yet with my tube amps. It is a Tandberg TCA 3008A preamplifier and a Tandberg TPA 3006A power amplifier (150W).

What would be the best way to connect the Elise to this system? The preamp has facilities for two tape decks that can be configured to play back one and record on the other and simultaneously listen to one of the tape decks. Is there a way to use the tape in/out for the Elise so that all inputs can be listened to through the Elise?

I also need to connect two PCs via RCA jacks, a record player and a CD player. The preamp has inputs for tuner, digital and phono as well so it seems logical that this takes care of three of the four sources.

Would appreciate suggestions on how to get this up and working - thanks.

PS: The preamp has separate inputs for MC and MM cartridges. Can any one of these be used for other sources?


----------



## pctazhp

@mordy. I'll take a stab at it, but hopefully someone who know what he is talking about will come along and clean up whatever mess I make.

First, it would seem that the two sets of tape connections could be used the same way you are using the equalizer loop in your current set up. Use one for output to Elise and the other to loop back into your receiver from the Elise output. But, if it were me, I would not be comfortable trying that without first taking a set of RCA interconnects to run the loop without the Elise. Hopefully you have a manual that explains how to configure the the tape outputs and inputs. If you have got it set up properly it would seem that should work the same as your equalizer loop in the system you are now using. One thing I'm not sure of is whether the Elise output would over-drive the tape input.

Neither the MM or MC input can be used as one of the inputs for your sources. Both of these inputs should have an RIAA curve circuit that would not be compatible with your sources. See: http://sessionville.com/articles/what-is-the-riaa-curve

I think if you need to switch between 4 different sources, you might want to consider using something like this: https://smile.amazon.com/Fosmon-Tec...88&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=rca+switch+box&psc=1

Good luck. Remember I'm not a professional audio person. I don't even play one on TV


----------



## connieflyer

I believe PCT is correct on the tape inputs, if memory serves me, the signal from tape 1 record to tape 2 monitor is taken from the tape head circuit and would be a low level signal, that might be over driven by the Elise.  As far as the switch box is concerned, I tried one similar to this one, and found that it leaked signal from one input to another.  Might have been a bad piece, but I doubt it. If I were to try to connect all that gear together, I think I would opt for an electronic switch, not cheap but "probably" safer.  Just my opinion, so you asked, I told, and I will pretend like it was an old man's memory that did it!  Good luck


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I believe PCT is correct on the tape inputs, if memory serves me, the signal from tape 1 record to tape 2 monitor is taken from the tape head circuit and would be a low level signal, that might be over driven by the Elise.  As far as the switch box is concerned, I tried one similar to this one, and found that it leaked signal from one input to another.  Might have been a bad piece, but I doubt it. If I were to try to connect all that gear together, I think I would opt for an electronic switch, not cheap but "probably" safer.  Just my opinion, so you asked, I told, and I will pretend like it was an old man's memory that did it!  Good luck



CF:  I don't at all disagree with your concerns about the switch box. I have always preferred as direct a signal path as possible. I don't use Euforia as a preamp and probably never will. I have no experience with the switchbox on Amazon. If it were me, I would be looking for something of higher quality.


----------



## mordy

pctazhp said:


> CF:  I don't at all disagree with your concerns about the switch box. I have always preferred as direct a signal path as possible. I don't use Euforia as a preamp and probably never will. I have no experience with the switchbox on Amazon. If it were me, I would be looking for something of higher quality.



So here is my experimental setup with the Tandberg preamp and the Elise. The music source is an iPhone 6+ and the headphones T1 Gen 1.




Not really knowing what I am doing, I connected the Elise Line In to Tape 1 receive, and Elise Line Out to Tape 1 play. The iPhone was connected from the phone speaker jack to Tape 2 receive.



Powered up everything, connected the headphones, and alternated between the headphone output on the preamp and the Elise, adjusting volume to be the same. Except for the balance control with headphones connected to the Tandberg, all tone controls were automatically defeated by the 3008A.
I discovered that I could listen through the Elise on the Tandberg by pushing in a button for Tape 1.



Listening through headphones, the sound from the Tandberg and the Elise were very similar with very small differences. The Tandberg was slightly more upfront; the Elise a tad laid back. Ultimately, listening directly from the Elise had a little more slam and refinement, but not by much. Could not discern too much difference with the Elise in or out of the circuit listening through the Tandberg.
How do I know that the Elise was in the circuit? Because when I pushed in the Tape 1 button, I could vary the volume by turning the Elise volume control, but it had no effect if the button was not pushed in.
Next will be to connect the Tandberg amp. It is an interesting construction - most of the amp is a gigantic see through heatsink. Producing 150W/channel and drawing a maximum of 700W it probably needs it. The instructions are to leave it on top of your equipment stack.



A really transparent design LOL ....

The Tandberg brand was manufactured in Norway, and they definitively had their own way of thinking.


----------



## pctazhp

Mordy. You have definitely gone above my pay grade, but seems you have the situation handled. I love the pictures of your Tandberg gear. I had a Tandberg tape deck in the early 70s and loved it.


----------



## Oskari (Aug 16, 2017)

There's not enough Sissel in these threads.


_Summertime_


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> There's not enough Sissel in these threads.
> 
> 
> _Summertime_



Hi O,

I think you mean sizzle - nuthin' cooking on the three Feliks threads. Where has everybody gone? Defected to solid state country?

Meanwhile I am enjoying my bipolar Nakamichi headphones. These cans have two sound signatures - one with noise reduction turned on and one without. Beats (pun intended) all the other headphones and earphones I have with the exception of the T1.
Actually , they are tri-polar lol. With a PC as a source the noise reduction mode sounds on the tinny side, but not so using the Elise/Euforia as a source - much more fleshed out.

The Russian guy I bought my Fotons from has relisted them, again for $3.97 each including shipping. Did u get a pair? You will be happy with them....


----------



## canthearyou (Aug 16, 2017)

It's been 13 days and my Elise hasn't even made it to Feliks headquarters. Glad I sent it Priority! Gonna be a looooong wait.


----------



## aqsw

I bought a dozen Fotons when I first bought my Elise. Never used them , as all I ever heard was "they were garbage"
Alot of myths going around. 
I remember a past member saying Audezes were not compatible with the Elise. Now they are.!


----------



## pctazhp

aqsw said:


> I bought a dozen Fotons when I first bought my Elise. Never used them , as all I ever heard was "they were garbage"
> Alot of myths going around.
> I remember a past member saying Audezes were not compatible with the Elise. Now they are.!



I understand. Can get very crazy making. Hang in there. Listen to @hypnos1 and you won't go wrong.


----------



## mordy

aqsw said:


> I bought a dozen Fotons when I first bought my Elise. Never used them , as all I ever heard was "they were garbage"
> Alot of myths going around.
> I remember a past member saying Audezes were not compatible with the Elise. Now they are.!


Hi aqsw,

One of the things I have learned over the years that you have form your own opinion about certain things. You cannot just go with "everybody says" because a lot of things are myths propagated by people with an agenda.

In the beginning of my tube adventures I doubted the possibility that my own impressions would be the same as others, but over the years I learned that there are other people that relate to and perceive how something sounds the same way as I do.
After comparing my own impressions over time with other people I realized that you can arrive at an objective consensus, even though this is based on a number of different individual's subjective observations. People have different tastes and equipment etc, but within a certain small group of select tubes anybody should be able to find what they really like. 

I also learned that I can rely on the recommendations of certain individuals since they hear things the same way that I do.

Based on the above I am not afraid to recommend the (dirt) cheap Fotons. They pair especially well with the RCA 6AS7G in the Elise/Euforia amps. My four tubes cost me $14 and I call them the _GEC savers_ lol.



It may sound strange that such inexpensive tubes sound so good, even in comparison with tubes costing hundreds of dollars more, but, nevertheless, this is my impression.


----------



## DavidA

mordy said:


> Hi aqsw,
> 
> One of the things I have learned over the years that you have form your own opinion about certain things. You cannot just go with "everybody says" because a lot of things are myths propagated by people with an agenda.
> 
> ...


Well said, and I would like to add that some are just stubborn / set in their ways and even when there is proof they will not change, too much pride or ego.


----------



## pctazhp

I don't believe anything beats home audition. I wish all tube sellers offered a 30-day return privilege)))  I agree with all the above advice. One thing I also look for in someone I pay attention to is a certain degree of consistency.

Speaking of return privilege I'm thinking of trying this for the heck of it. http://emotiva.com/product/cmx-2/


----------



## aqsw

I'm going to try to find them and give them a spin.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> The Russian guy I bought my Fotons from has relisted them, again for $3.97 each including shipping. Did u get a pair? You will be happy with them....


I'm trying to avoid buying more tubes…


----------



## Rossliew

mordy said:


> Hi Angpsi,
> 
> Don't be insulted that a tube is too cheap to be good lol! These Fotons are a steal and really hold their own very well. Paired with the humble RCA 6AS7G tubes they really sound great with a wonderful low mid range bass.
> I don't miss my 6AS7 GEC/Sylvania combo with these tubes.


Which Foton tubes are they if i may ask? Interested to get some for my Elise..


----------



## mordy

Rossliew said:


> Which Foton tubes are they if i may ask? Interested to get some for my Elise..


Hi Rossliew,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6N8S-Aud...472693?hash=item4b1fc3cc35:g:DEAAAOSwA3dYVRnF

There are several variants of these tubes. The link is what I bought, from the 60's. A pair from the 70's is even cheaper. I also ordered a pair from 1952-53 ($19.90 shipped) which is supposed to sound better and close to the Melz tubes, but it has not arrived yet - hopefully in a couple of days (already in the US).
I get excellent results pairing these with the RCA 6AS7G which can be found relatively inexpensively as well. 

Waiting to hear what Feliks says when they try them in the Euforia......


----------



## Rossliew

Many thanks, Mordy.  Will be sure to check those tubes out. Nothing like some truly affordable tubes that sound great


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi O,
> 
> I think you mean sizzle - nuthin' cooking on the three Feliks threads. Where has everybody gone? Defected to solid state country?
> 
> ...


Hi guys, been away for a while on vacation. Also I've been spending less time on the Elise itself and more time on building up around it. You already know I got me a Mimby, and I have an Either on the way, and I finally also got me some decent (see: fancy) interconnects to go along with it. I also just got a pair of Brainwavz leather pads for my HD600 because I was trying to deal with how uncomfortable they were sitting on my head. Finally, I sold @Althalus a large portion of my inventory to fund my escapades and give him a head start with his experimentation: the Tung-Sol 5998, the Mullard 6080, the Tung-Sol 6sn7gt, and the Sylvania 6sn7wgt. So I'm basically left with my favorite combo: the GEC 6080 and the Sylvania 6sn7w, which is soon to be complemented with a pair of Sylvania JAN CHS 6sn7gt / VT-231, bottom flashing / grey letters (oh, and I still have those TF EL12 and Siemens EL12n).

I've also been looking around for alternative headphones ranging from new to vintage, but I don't think I'll be spending any more money on trials right now. Come September I'm hoping to join a local meet and get some hands–on with other people's gear for a change.

So good to find you guys still hanging out here, let's hope newcomers will find their way to participate and share their own findings with their Elises!


----------



## angpsi

Btw, @mordy, your Foton guy's link doesn't work. Perhaps @Rossliew bought all of his inventory so he took away the ad?


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> Btw, @mordy, your Foton guy's link doesn't work. Perhaps @Rossliew bought all of his inventory so he took away the ad?


Hi angpsi,

He was up on eBay a few days ago, but now he is not listed. Anyhow, you can contact him directly at 2a3sedht@gmail.com.
Looks like he has plenty of stock.....


----------



## Rossliew

angpsi said:


> Btw, @mordy, your Foton guy's link doesn't work. Perhaps @Rossliew bought all of his inventory so he took away the ad?



Hahaha not to worry I have not bought any from him at all. After some digging around it seems I already have a pair of 1950s manufactured ones.


----------



## mordy

Rossliew said:


> Hahaha not to worry I have not bought any from him at all. After some digging around it seems I already have a pair of 1950s manufactured ones.


Great - so how do they sound?


----------



## Rossliew

mordy said:


> Great - so how do they sound?


I can say they work very well in my Elise with thumping bass and sweet highs. Considering the price!


----------



## mordy

Rossliew said:


> I can say they work very well in my Elise with thumping bass and sweet highs. Considering the price!


Biggest bang for the buck!


----------



## angpsi

Guys, I don't know what got into me but I just posted an interest check to sell my gear. Either downgrading or getting out of the game altogether. Perhaps I need an analyst to tell me what's wrong...


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Guys, I don't know what got into me but I just posted an interest check to sell my gear. Either downgrading or getting out of the game altogether. Perhaps I need an analyst to tell me what's wrong...



Never being one to keep my thoughts to myself, here's my take. If you find yourself consistently focused on gear instead of just enjoying your system, it might make sense to sell off. I personally believe that it is difficult to appreciate the full potential of Elise or Euforia without having heard either one with EL11/EL12spez. That combo with Euforia is clearly my endgame But that combo is not for the faint of heart and of course involves more expense.

There will always be Euforia or possibly a new amp introduced by FA, or any of the other great amps available now or to be introduced in the future.

Good luck)))


----------



## mordy

angpsi said:


> Guys, I don't know what got into me but I just posted an interest check to sell my gear. Either downgrading or getting out of the game altogether. Perhaps I need an analyst to tell me what's wrong...


Hi angpsi,
Here is my take on your quandry:
Based on your posts I really think that you love listening to music, and you did put a lot of effort and money into finding what you really like. But, and I quote you - "_I don't think my ears play nice with extensive listening sessions on headphones."_

If this is the problem, using the system that you have with the Elise as a preamp and getting better speakers may be the answer.
Today you can get very good sounding speakers without spending a lot of money. An old solid state amp/receiver may be all the amplification you need to be happy (I am using a 1980 Sony that i got for free).

If loud playing is a problem you could get speakers that are good for near field listening and you don't need to play very loud to get great results.

What do you think?


----------



## Rossliew

Electrostatics are calling you @angpsi .....


----------



## angpsi

Rossliew said:


> Electrostatics are calling you @angpsi .....


tempted!


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> I personally believe that it is difficult to appreciate the full potential of Elise or Euforia without having heard either one with EL11/EL12spez. That combo with Euforia is clearly my endgame But that combo is not for the faint of heart and of course involves more expense.


You know I have!


----------



## Rossliew

angpsi said:


> tempted!


That is your calling now..submit to the temptation!


----------



## Rossliew

Am currently running my Elise (Chatham 7236/Sylvania 6SN7 chrome domes) as pre-amp into my Stax SRS-252s/L300 combo - splendid sounds i tell you!


----------



## angpsi

mordy said:


> Hi angpsi,
> Here is my take on your quandry:
> Based on your posts I really think that you love listening to music, and you did put a lot of effort and money into finding what you really like. But, and I quote you - "_I don't think my ears play nice with extensive listening sessions on headphones."_
> 
> ...


Both you and @Rossliew are right on the money. These tiny little beauties have tempted me as well!


----------



## angpsi

Rossliew said:


> Am currently running my Elise (Chatham 7236/Sylvania 6SN7 chrome domes) as pre-amp into my Stax SRS-252s/L300 combo - splendid sounds i tell you!


So instead of selling, you want me to shell out another $800!?!  That's true audiophile reasoning, I'll give you that!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> You know I have!



If that didn't float your boat, definitely time to move on.


----------



## Rossliew

angpsi said:


> So instead of selling, you want me to shell out another $800!?!  That's true audiophile reasoning, I'll give you that!


Will be the best $800 you'd spent!


----------



## angpsi

Re: Elise as preamp—well it does do wonders with my Tivoli Audio Model Two as well!


----------



## angpsi

Rossliew said:


> Will be the best $800 you'd spent!


Gimme visuals and I might be persuaded! Although I'd also have to get a divorce...


----------



## angpsi (Aug 24, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> If that didn't float your boat, definitely time to move on.


Didn't you see the ad? My last two pairs are in there! I was also the first one who got the EL12spez (oh, the good old days...).


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Didn't you see the ad? My last two pairs are in there! I was also the first one who got the EL12spez (oh, the good old days...).



Electrostatic speakers are great. I recommend the Ultimate 745s  http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/ultimate-px.html

Throw a couple of Schiit Vidars at them and you're set


----------



## Rossliew

angpsi said:


> Gimme visuals and I might be persuaded! Although I'd also have to get a divorce...


----------



## angpsi (Aug 24, 2017)

Rossliew said:


>


And Stax on their own, how do they sound by comparison? I mean, I know what I already read around the web (don't think I hadn't already done my research when I said I was tempted), but what does the Elise do to them?

BTW, not getting a divorce. So chances I'll be sporting both at the same time are slim!


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> Electrostatic speakers are great. I recommend the Ultimate 745s  http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/ultimate-px.html
> 
> Throw a couple of Schiit Vidars at them and you're set


So much for breaking the bank Pct! I'm not letting you handle my divorce either!


----------



## Rossliew

angpsi said:


> And Stax on their own, how do they sound by comparison? I mean, I know what I already read around the web (don't think I hadn't already done my research when I said I was tempted), but what does the Elise do to them?
> 
> BTW, not getting a divorce. So chances are slim I'll be sporting both at the same time!



The Stax combo sounds like one would expect from a typical electrostatic system - clear, transparent sound with smooth yet revealing highs, sweet mids and fast, tight bottom end. And the lambdas have a nice wide soundstage. The sound is relatively uncoloured and its almost like a wire with gain although this combo is a tad warmish sounding, which makes it musical. With the Elise, it adds extra body to the sound with bass that has more impact yet one doesn't lose the speed of electrostats. Nevertheless, the highs remain clear and delivered without distortion or edge. 

To me personally, the single most revealing trait of electrostats are how they handle the high frequencies - you hear more of it yet you don't get fatigued by it. Its smooth yet not glossed over, crystal clear yet not biting.


----------



## pctazhp

Rossliew said:


> To me personally, the single most revealing trait of electrostats are how they handle the high frequencies - you hear more of it yet you don't get fatigued by it. Its smooth yet not glossed over, crystal clear yet not biting.



Minority Report:  The HD800S do the same with high frequencies. 

I had a pair of the Lambdas, but that was a long time ago.


----------



## Rossliew

pctazhp said:


> Minority Report:  The HD800S do the same with high frequencies.
> 
> I had a pair of the Lambdas, but that was a long time ago.


Indeed they do but somehow, they do not convey the fine edge between clarity and sibilance as well as electrostats...YMMV


----------



## angpsi

Negotiating to meet with two audiophiles from the local scene (actually, one of them is a contributor in Part-time Audiophile) next week here in Athens. They both have summit-fi gear (stereo and hp) in their inventory. Hopefully it will give me a good glimpse of what the Elise or the HD600 can do, perhaps even see what is wrong with my case. I don't think they have Stax, but the HD800 is definitely in the mix.


----------



## angpsi

Rossliew said:


> The Stax combo sounds like one would expect from a typical electrostatic system - clear, transparent sound with smooth yet revealing highs, sweet mids and fast, tight bottom end. And the lambdas have a nice wide soundstage. The sound is relatively uncoloured and its almost like a wire with gain although this combo is a tad warmish sounding, which makes it musical. With the Elise, it adds extra body to the sound with bass that has more impact yet one doesn't lose the speed of electrostats. Nevertheless, the highs remain clear and delivered without distortion or edge.
> 
> To me personally, the single most revealing trait of electrostats are how they handle the high frequencies - you hear more of it yet you don't get fatigued by it. Its smooth yet not glossed over, crystal clear yet not biting.


I'd really love to try the Stax some day...


----------



## pctazhp

Rossliew said:


> Indeed they do but somehow, they do not convey the fine edge between clarity and sibilance as well as electrostats...YMMV



Don't mind me. I'm just jealous of anyone who owns a 007 or 009. Stax is a great name from the past who continues to maintain its strong tradition


----------



## Rossliew

Well no need to be jealous - I just have the cheapest Stax combo around


----------



## angpsi

Since Pct decided to throw me down on memory lane I decided to give the GEC 6080 a rest and put the dormant TFK EL12 in their place next to the Sylvania 6sn7w. First impressions, they're quite comparable if not adding a little more "oomph" in the sound. I'll leave them on for the next couple of days, then switch back to the GECs to see what I'm missing.

@pctazhp, this is dedicated to you!


----------



## angpsi (Aug 26, 2017)

OK, so right after I posted this I immediately noticed something and went immediately back to the GECs to confirm. As I was listening to Gonzalo Rubalkaba's _The Blessing _(track 1, around 3:40), I realised that the EL12 muffled the (very low register) kick drum into an air–pressure type of "oomph"—if my phrasing makes any sense at all. This is exactly the type of thing I was complaining about when I originally complained about the EL setups. Going back to the GEC immediately made this "oomph" recognizable as a kick drum boot, and my ears went back to rest. I don't know, perhaps it's my pair or the synergy with the HD600 but that is what I hear.

I know saying this now that I'm advertising for a sale is probably not to my benefit, but it is what it is. This doesn't mean that in all other respects the EL12 doesn't perform marvelously—or at least comparably to the GEC 6080 (which says a lot).

As always, YMMV.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> OK, so right after I posted this I immediately noticed something and went immediately back to the GECs to confirm. As I was listening to Gonzalo Rubalkaba's _The Blessing _(track 1, around 3:40), I realised that the EL12 muffled the (very low register) kick drum into an air–pressure type of "oomph"—if my phrasing makes any sense at all. This is exactly the type of thing I was complaining about when I originally complained about the EL setups. Going back to the GEC immediately made this "oomph" recognizable as a kick drum boot, and my ears went back to rest. I don't know, perhaps it's my pair or the synergy with the HD600 but that is what I hear.
> 
> I know saying this now that I'm advertising for a sale is probably not to my benefit, but it is what it is. This doesn't mean that in all other respects the EL12 doesn't perform marvelously—or at least comparably to the GEC 6080 (which says a lot).
> 
> As always, YMMV.



I know the discussion about EL tubes can get confusing. But I want to be clear I have never tried the combo you posted and have never touted using an EL11 or EL12 tube with any of the standard approved tubes. My holy grail is Telefunken EL11 driver - Telefunken EL12 spez power. There may be other combos involving EL tubes that are great, but nothing should be inferred from my posts and praise of my holy grail as endorsement of any other use of EL tubes. The only combo that comes somewhat close is replacing EL12 spez with standard EL12. Close, but no cigar.


----------



## pctazhp

I can well appreciate anyone being skeptical of my talk about holy grail. People spend thousands and thousands of dollars chasing the latest and greatest of DACs, amps, headphones, tubes, etc. And each new find defies description, until it no longer does, and there is a new latest and greatest. I totally understand the drive for something new, because I sank countless dollars on that search during my audiophile days.

Perhaps I now see things differently because I now live on a more modest income, some wisdom that comes with age, losing interest in a non-headphone system, or whatever. I have no idea if my holy grail would even be listenable to others. All I know is that it is my endgame for the foreseeable future which is measured in years. And all I would say further is FOR ME PERSONALLY, if someone reports experiencing disappointment with Elise or Euforia, I can't help but wonder if they have ever heard their amp with EL11/EL12spez, because that is my reference which tells me (and only me) what, in my case, Euforia is fully capable of.


----------



## angpsi (Aug 26, 2017)

Obviously  the same applies in my case, hence my concluding with a YMMV statement. Indeed, the endgame set in my setup may very well be the GEC 60800 / Sylvania 6sn7w as have already I stated numerous times in the recent past. The EL12 remind me so much of the GEC 6080 sound signature, with the exception of this last remark. I was ready to give them a long run if I didn't immediately recognise the thing that had troubled me in the past, which is also the very thing I _wouldn't_ really be able to know about if it weren't for the GEC 6080. Here I should also clarify that the term "endgame" denotes that this was the first time that I've had the Elise leap so significantly for the better that it almost felt that I was keeping her from her true potential in the past. However, this doesn't mean that it has reached to summit-fi performance—which I wouldn't know about because apart from the Elise my only experience comes from stereo systems.

To expand my original observation a bit further, I also happen to thing that the HD600 have a big part to play in this. I am gradually finding them to sound excessively 'tight' on everything that they render, especially when they are on my 'endgame' combo. One of the local audiophiles I referred to in my previous note suggested that the HD650 can be significantly more potent from a technical side; and, of course, colluded with the rest of you that my perception would change significantly should I ever get my hands on a pair of HD800 or similar. He also suggested that all the other parts of the audio chain have a good role to play as well; e.g. that an upgrade from the Mimby to something significantly more potent should bring in more of a change than all the tube rolling in the world.

In the end, it all comes down to what you have stated yourself, namely, that 'endgame' is really a very personal issue because it actually denotes a certain point where you, and you alone, is ready to settle. If reaching this point is happily informed upon an extensive experience with audio gear, I'd argue that's even better; or otherwise we'd be listening with Beats straight from our iPhones instead of seeking for knowledge in specialty forums such as this one. Having sported the EL11/EL12spez combo myself for a significant period during my education days definitely helps me understand where you're coming from (albeit it still baffles me why I keep returning to my minority report position).

But—I agree—all we can hope for is to listen with our own ears and, since we take part in this lovely thread, share our findings for others to consider. And you've been solid in this regard considering the work you put here, and especially the work you put in consolidating all the accumulated knowledge in the first post!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Obviously  the same applies in my case, hence my concluding with a YMMV statement. Indeed, the endgame set in my setup may very well be the GEC 60800 / Sylvania 6sn7w as have already I stated numerous times in the recent past. The EL12 remind me so much of the GEC 6080 sound signature, with the exception of this last remark. I was ready to give them a long run if I didn't immediately recognise the thing that had troubled me in the past, which is also the very thing I _wouldn't_ really be able to know about if it weren't for the GEC 6080. Here I should also clarify that the term "endgame" denotes that this was the first time that I've had the Elise leap so significantly for the better that it almost felt that I was keeping her from her true potential in the past. However, this doesn't mean that it has reached to summit-fi performance—which I wouldn't know about because apart from the Elise my only experience comes from stereo systems.
> 
> To expand my original observation a bit further, I also happen to thing that the HD600 have a big part to play in this. I am gradually finding them to sound excessively 'tight' on everything that they render, especially when they are on my 'endgame' combo. One of the local audiophiles I referred to in my previous note suggested that the HD650 can be significantly more potent from a technical side; and, of course, colluded with the rest of you that my perception would change significantly should I ever get my hands on a pair of HD800 or similar. He also suggested that all the other parts of the audio chain have a good role to play as well; e.g. that an upgrade from the Mimby to something significantly more potent should bring in more of a change than all the tube rolling in the world.
> 
> ...



My wild guess is that your issue may be more with headphone than DAC - especially if your main source is USB and your are running Mimby with Eitr. I haven't heard either HD600 or HD650 and I love my HD800S so much, I have no idea what headphone to recommend. So why did I even bother to post? Mainly because it's hot and things are slow here in Scottsdale. I couldn't think of anything else to do at the moment. Also, I get bored constantly checking the Schiit website to see if a black Gumby has become available. 

Last but not least, thank you very much for your kind words.


----------



## angpsi

The Eitr is still under way. It was shipped on Friday from the Netherlands so it should be with me by the end of the coming week.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> The Eitr is still under way. It was shipped on Friday from the Netherlands so it should be with me by the end of the coming week.



I don't have experience with Eitr, but know that bypassing USB altogether with my ASUS soundcard makes a considerable difference. Might want to wait until Eitr arrives before selling off everything.


----------



## mordy

Here are pictures of an unbranded 6080 tube - who is the manufacturer?








Are these the real thing?


----------



## attmci

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fel...e-read-first-post-for-summary.813488/page-225


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Here are pictures of an unbranded 6080 tube - who is the manufacturer?
> 
> Are these the real thing?


Yes. MOV at Hammersmith.


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> Yes. MOV at Hammersmith.


Ho Oskari,

Same as GEC, right?

Date code XB = 1966 something?


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Ho Oskari,
> 
> Same as GEC, right?
> 
> Date code XB = 1966 something?


Yes.

Yes. Feb.


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> Yes.
> 
> Yes. Feb.


Thanks - ordered these three tubes and hope that they will be good. I looked for a long time for the GEC 6080 rebranded as Haltron, but rarer than hen's teeth. A couple of pairs had been sold from Poland for reasonable prices (especially compared to the GEC prices) during the past year, .
Last night I stumbled upon these and thought that they might be unbranded GEC tubes. 
Talamod ar en dygd. 

Sometimes I have alien thoughts of getting a solid state headphone amp (S brand), but then the tube rolling/buying experience will be lacking....

At this point in time I am happy with what I have; nothing bothers me when I am listening. It is just a question of chocolate, vanilla or strawberry when choosing tubes. Of course there is better sound - there always is, but at what cost?


----------



## Oskari

Mordy, your tålamod is second to none!


----------



## Oskari (Aug 28, 2017)

That means _patience_.


----------



## mordy

Somebody just bought a lot of 10 Tung Sol 5998 tubes for $109 that were sold as very poor measuring - not one of them met the minimum measuring requirement.

Quote:
I tested these tubes on my Westmore 501 (gov't version of Triplet 3444) connected to a regulated power supply.  The test conditions are Vp of 100V and -10V grid bias.  The min. Gm value is 10000 and spec is 15000.  The results are as follows:

Tube #1                      9500/10000

Tube #2                      9250/9000

Tube #3                      9000/9500

Tube #4                      9250/9000

Tube #5                      9500/8000

Tube #6                      6000/7500

Tube #7                      6500/5000

Tube #8                      9000/8750

Tube #9                      7500/7500

Tube #10                   9250/No Reading

Why would anybody be interested in buying these tubes?


----------



## canthearyou

Probably to resell as good tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

That would be my take on it as well, popular high end tube ,most may sound okay but won't last


----------



## angpsi

So today I received my new pair of Sylvania VT-231. I got them for something less than €40 incl. shipping. It's an interesting pair, with nice air, imaging and soundstage. First impressions they may be comparable to the Sylvania 6sn7w in some ways, but not as tight at the lower register. Still, I'll grant them the benefit of a trial period so that they can stretch their legs more before I come up with more substantiated impressions. Overall a very good pair of tubes, but I think it's time I switched to a different house altogether. A local audiophile suggested me to try the Ken-Rad 6sn7gt staggered plates. Anyone have experience with them?

As usual, I'm closing with a picture of the Sylvania 6sn7gt / VT-231 for your aesthetic appreciation and visual pleasure.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> Probably to resell as good tubes.


Hi cty and CF,

Was hoping that somebody would tell me about a way how to rejuvenate worn out tubes and make them like new. I have seen posts about methods to apply different types of currents to renew tubes, but I never found out any details about it, but it seems that it can be done if you know how.

Or is this a fairy tale?


----------



## myphone

angpsi said:


> So today I received my new pair of Sylvania VT-231. I got them for something less than €40 incl. shipping. It's an interesting pair, with nice air, imaging and soundstage. First impressions they may be comparable to the Sylvania 6sn7w in some ways, but not as tight at the lower register. Still, I'll grant them the benefit of a trial period so that they can stretch their legs more before I come up with more substantiated impressions. Overall a very good pair of tubes, but I think it's time I switched to a different house altogether. A local audiophile suggested me to try the Ken-Rad 6sn7gt staggered plates. Anyone have experience with them?
> 
> As usual, I'm closing with a picture of the Sylvania 6sn7gt / VT-231 for your aesthetic appreciation and visual pleasure.



I have compared Syl VT-231 and Ken-Rad staggered VT-231 and 6SN7 in Euforia. Syl has better highs and kids, more refined and sweeter. Ken-Rad has very prominent bass. Personally, I like Syl 6SN7 1952 3 hole plate better, it combines goods of Syl VT231 and KenRad. KenRad Staggered VT231 and  6SN7 sound and look the same. I only have clear glass staggered version.


----------



## connieflyer

Hi Mordy,

I have heard that rumor all my adult life about ways to rejuvenate a tube. I had seen this with dry cell batteries as well by using a reverse current to restore them never tried that. As far as tubes go when the cathode is done emitting as many electrons as it can that's all there is. I was Electronics technician in the service way back in the sixties and everything was vacuum tube then and I had heard the same rumor going around as well that you could rejuvenate them somehow. As far as I know, it is not possible to reinvent the tube. If an element has failed it's dead if it's wearing out it soon we'll be dead. If somebody else has more information please let me know I have a tube that would like to be rejuvenated.


----------



## Oskari

_La Maritza_


----------



## angpsi (Sep 1, 2017)

Eitr is settling in with the Mimby. The effect is certainly audible, although I'm not sure about the level of the benefits. Starting to think that people telling me that the Mimby may be the weak link in my audio chain may be right. Overall, my rig is definitely turning into something far from where I started to go originally (basically I was looking to pair the HD600 with an O2). The Sylvania 6sn7gt / VT-231 are playing wonderfully, in fact I'm not even missing my beloved Syl 6sn7w. Perhaps the bass is still less resolving and tight, but man what a wonderful midrange! From what I reckon, bassheads should be looking the way of the Ken–Rad; for everyone else, I can't imagine that the Sylvania 6sn7gt / VT-231 won't mesmerise and tingle their sensations.

As I'm writing these lines, courier brought my new Beyer DT990pro, which I bought from Amazon Wearhouse deals for $89 including shipping (thanks to the "The EU deals thread")! I know it's not a cool thing to side–grade against the HD600 but I couldn't resist the price. Oddly enough they look like they are in pristine condition! Honestly, I can't imagine why they were sold as wearhouse deals, unless perhaps it was because the box has minor scuffs! The v-shaped signature is immediately perceivable, mids are way recessed compared to the HD600 and the lows and highs are more pronounced, thus creating the effect of an airy soundstage (listening to Miles Davies' _Kind of Blue_, @24/192). Maybe I prefer the HD600 but I certainly see the appeal. However, I'll let the cans breathe and get back to you, it's never right to assume things before some proper time passes.

As always, here are some pics for your visual appetite.


----------



## pctazhp (Sep 1, 2017)

@angpsi Thanks for keeping us updated, and as always your pictures are great. I enjoy seeing pictures of different setups.

I really have no valuable thoughts on what you might still be missing. I know that my Bimby, even using Gen2 USB, is the source of very high SQ for me. I have some difficulty understanding how Mimby with EITR could not be close or even superior to what I can achieve with my Bimby.

Euforia with EL11/EL12spez just continues to amaze me. Of course, I also have to give credit to HD800S. I am perhaps not as emphatic as some as to how much better Euforia is than Elise. I find it more "different" than necessarily "better".  I don't believe that Euforia over Elise is necessary to obtain obtain highly satisfying SQ.

I am more emphatic as to how much better EL11/EL12spez is than any of my other highly rated tubes, including Syl 6SN7W/GEC6AS7G.

As for your headphones, I haven't heard either so I don't know what to say about them. I don't subscribe to the notion that something is probably better than something else just because it is more expensive. But from all I have read I do suspect that one may have to get into the plus $1000 range (for the headphone) to start to get outstanding performance from a headphone based system. Even if that is a high barrier, I believe the overall cost of a great headphone system is far less than for a speaker based system.

Anyway, good luck and please do keep us informed as to your progress. Your posts are interesting and informative.


----------



## DavidA

@angpsi , I would have to agree with @pctazhp about the Mimby being quite good and not the weak link in your system.  I have a Bimby and older Bifrost Uber but I don't use USB (only optical) so that might be the reason why and even when I had a friends Mimby I only used the optical and coax connections.  I think the weak link is your headphones since the rest of your audio chain is quite good.


----------



## angpsi

Hi @DavidA, do you think that the DT990pro will open up as they get more playtime? Because straight compared with the HD600 I outright prefer the latter.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> @angpsi Thanks for keeping us updated, and as always your pictures are great. I enjoy seeing pictures of different setups.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Anyway, good luck and please do keep us informed as to your progress. Your posts are interesting and informative.


Thanks for your kind words Pct, hopefully we'll get more of those newcomers to Elise territory to share their impressions. Lots of knowledge available here!



pctazhp said:


> @angpsi I am more emphatic as to how much better EL11/EL12spez is than any of my other highly rated tubes, including Syl 6SN7W/GEC6AS7G.



So when are you going to trade me your GECs for my TFK EL12 / Siemens EL12n?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> So when are you going to trade me your GECs for my TFK EL12 / Siemens EL12n?



You are funny man)))  I already have TF EL12 and EL12n I don't particularly like and don't use. Don't need any more)))

For the right price, my GECs (6AS7G and/or 6080) are yours or anyone else's who wants them. If someone wants to buy them, I will be disappointed they ignore my learned and sage advice to get EL11/EL12spez, but even I have my price


----------



## angpsi

Sorry Pct, can't afford your tubes unless they cost zero... Gotta put a lid on my spending if I'm ever going to afford an upgrade to the HD600!


----------



## angpsi

So far the DT990pro are good, but the HD600 are hands down better. I can see the former rock out, but overall I find the latter way more classy and refined. Of course, that's according to my taste / ears.


----------



## DavidA

angpsi said:


> Hi @DavidA, do you think that the DT990pro will open up as they get more playtime? Because straight compared with the HD600 I outright prefer the latter.


If you currently like the HD600 that much better than the DT990 the only reason to keep the DT990 is for when you want a different presentation, its why I still have a DT990 premium but I only use them once or twice a month.  I did sell my HD600 only because of the small peak at 4-5khz that bothered me at times but I still have a HD650.  FWIW I'm one that likes variety so the headphones that I do have all have their own unique signature and I don't really think of one being better than the other, just different.  You can look in my profile to see what I have/had.  Others like simplicity and only have 1-2 headphones which is fine also if that is what they prefer.

Lately I've been working with DIY headphones based on drivers from Elleven Acoustica, Nhoord and Symphones to build Grado RS type clones.  Not the cheapest to build but one of the biggest reasons is they don't need an amp to sound great.  You have a great amp in the Elise and a decent DAC in the Mimby, I would think you would be looking at HD700/HD800, T1g1 or similar headphones to really get the most out of your impressive gear.


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Sorry Pct, can't afford your tubes unless they cost zero... Gotta put a lid on my spending if I'm ever going to afford an upgrade to the HD600!



In addition to being a funny man, you are also a wise one )))

Speaking of headphones, I bought my HD800S from Jan Meier. He is great guy to deal with and has some good headphones. http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/


----------



## pctazhp

Question:  One of my pair of EL11s have lose bases. Doesn't seem to affect performance at all. But to avoid possible damage I want to glue them tight. I've been thinking about Super Glue but have read that because of heat generated by tubes it won't last long. Anyone have any thoughts as to a better glue to use for this purpose?


----------



## rosgr63

Nail varnish will also do the trick.


----------



## angpsi

@rosgr63 are we _ever_ going to have that coffee?  Jokes aside, I'd be thrilled if we did.


----------



## angpsi

pctazhp said:


> In addition to being a funny man, you are also a wise one )))
> 
> Speaking of headphones, I bought my HD800S from Jan Meier. He is great guy to deal with and has some good headphones. http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/


Really? I was researching Jan Meier when I was looking for an amp!


----------



## angpsi

DavidA said:


> (...) You have a great amp in the Elise and a decent DAC in the Mimby, I would think you would be looking at HD700/HD800, T1g1 or similar headphones to really get the most out of your impressive gear.


Ya, everybody keeps telling me that; too bad I'm not sitting on a mountain of money... probably need to start saving for those top–tier cans the old–fashioned way!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Really? I was researching Jan Meier when I was looking for an amp!



I bought HD800S from Jan soon after it came out and was very difficult to find anywhere. And he gave me a great price. Highly recommend him. But don't think he accepts piggy banks in payment


----------



## connieflyer

From the equipment and the way that you describe what you're hearing, I really believe where you need to go is a better headphone. There is nothing wrong with the 600, but you can do much better by going to the seven or eight hundred which Amazon has a sale on the Sennheiser 800 right now for $982, which is expensive but under a grand. I had the T1 and I have the 800 and the 700 I had two pair of the 650 and of all the phones that I've had so far the 800 stands out as the best I have heard. I am really looking forward to comparing it to the 800s in the future. But I think if you improve your headphone you will realize that the equipment that you have is quite sufficient.


----------



## pctazhp

connieflyer said:


> I am really looking forward to comparing it to the 800s in the future.



Come out for Labor Day and we'll have an HD800S party, but you have to bring Gumby (and Connor)


----------



## angpsi

Talk about TOTL cans, did you guys see this? https://www.head-fi.org/threads/focal-super-deal-for-the-month-of-september.859236/#post-13694179


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Talk about TOTL cans, did you guys see this? https://www.head-fi.org/threads/focal-super-deal-for-the-month-of-september.859236/#post-13694179



This is your sign. Time to say bye bye to the HD600s - and to any hope of future financial security 

But I think better keep stuffing the piggy bank for a while and then mortgage your future for a HD800. It has stood the test of time.


----------



## angpsi (Sep 1, 2017)

pctazhp said:


> This is your sign. Time to say bye bye to the HD600s - and to any hope of future financial security
> 
> But I think better keep stuffing the piggy bank for a while and then mortgage your future for a HD800. It has stood the test of time.


Unfortunately the offer is limited to the US only. Sticking with the piggy bank plan.


----------



## angpsi

Guys, quick question: anyone here heard/owns an Elear with the Elise? how does it compare with the HD800? Which one would you prefer using with the Elise and why?


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Guys, quick question: anyone here heard/owns an Elear with the Elise? how does it compare with the HD800? Which one would you prefer using with the Elise and why?



Sorry. I haven't heard either. Maybe check with UT on his thread. He has HD800 and I think may have heard Elear.


----------



## mondrax

Guys  this comes right on time for me as I am getting a pair of Telefunkens EL12 in the next 4 or 5 days and  I am planning to use them as power tubes or drivers I have the converters already. I need to do some tube data I know before I plug them  
@pctapzhp  your combos are kick ass.  

Right now I am listening to the Mullard's and Tung-Sol's, wife is not home so I am kicking the  speakers, hee hee. 

Keep the music playing....

Mondrax


----------



## pctazhp

The TS6SN7-GTB is one of my favorite drivers. Good luck with the EL12.

Is that a R2R tape deck??? It looks really cool.


----------



## mondrax

pctazhp said:


> Sorry. I haven't heard either. Maybe check with UT on his thread. He has HD800 and I think may have heard Elear.


I own the Elear's and IMO they are a set that you need to adjust to them, but if you tube them you can chill them and as far as I know they can be a good pair for the Elise.  Currently a guy well known in the review community has them, as soon as I get them back I will give you a report of how they sound with the Elise.

Mondrax


----------



## pctazhp

Ah. From your profile it must be an Akai GX 630D. Totally classic


----------



## angpsi

@mondrax, did you catch my ad? https://www.head-fi.org/threads/telefunken-el12-siemens-el12n-tubes-measuring-at-100.859438/


----------



## mondrax

pctazhp said:


> Ah. From your profile it must be an Akai GX 630D. Totally classic


----------



## mondrax

Good catch, in my latest pic you can see a bit of the Akai GX-630D, I recently got it for just peanuts some folks here in the US just want to clean their storage places.  It works perfectly I just got and getting the reals and hub adapters.  I have a plan.  I also own a U-Turn Turntable, so that is part of my master plan   I think you know where I am going...

Keep the music going

Mondrax.


----------



## mondrax

pctazhp said:


> The TS6SN7-GTB is one of my favorite drivers. Good luck with the EL12.
> 
> Is that a R2R tape deck??? It looks really cool.


 

You guys are very observant, yes it is.


----------



## pctazhp

mondrax said:


> I have a plan. I also own a U-Turn Turntable, so that is part of my master plan  I think you know where I am going...



Seems like your plan is to return to the Glory Analog Days of Yester-Year   My analog days are long gone, but many fond memories spanning 35 years


----------



## mondrax

It is fun and gives me more options to enjoy music.  Pushing buttons, switching tubes, bringing down a lever on a vinyl record, and listening for example Louis Armstrong in front of you.  

Don't get me wrong I like uncompressed digital formats and have some good gear to play all formats, at the end it comes down to the application and the mood I am into.

When it comes to music, no body is wrong, it is what you like.

Cheers buddy!

Mondrax


----------



## angpsi (Sep 4, 2017)

Hi all,

Today I woke to a sudden revelation. The Sylvania 6sn7gt—VT-231 are now officially my favorite pair of drivers! Yes, the Syl 6sn7w are tighter, offer a blacker background, and possibly are more resolving; but the VT-231 just do everything with so much refinement it's beyond me. Exclamations aside, I think that for the music I'm listening they are truly unique. They are rendering the mids with such a truly convincing voicing they just sounds more natural and, hence, pleasurable.

This idea crawled into my head yesterday, when I realised that not only was I listening to the VT-231 for 4 consecutive days without feeling the need to go back to the 6sn7w, but that I was actually mesmerised by the music I was listening to. Just for your reference, the said music was _Scriabin: The Complete Works_ (Decca) and _Duet_ (Chick Corea and Hiromi). Today I got back to the 6sn7w and guess what, I immediately felt the need to go back to the VT-231! For someone who's been so attached to the 6sn7w for so long, I can't believe I let them go over the VT-231. In the end, it looks like I'm turning into a proper tube–head, that is, putting euphonic before analytical!

Who would have figured!


----------



## connieflyer (Sep 4, 2017)

With the gec tube 6A S7 the Sylvania VT 231 and the RCA VT 231 from 1948 are my favorite combos to use for 6sn7s


----------



## angpsi

connieflyer said:


> With the gec tube 6A S7 the Sylvania DT 231 and the RCA BT 231 from 1948 are my favorite combos to use for 6s and 7s


You mean: "with the GEC 6as7 the Sylvania VT231 and the RCA VT231 from 1948 are my favorite combos to use for (?)"

—but what's that last part? EDIT: for 60's and 70's [music] maybe?


----------



## pctazhp

I don't have the Sylvania VT231. But I can say I prefer my Sylvania 6SN7-WGT to Sylvania 6SN7W.


----------



## canthearyou

Update: Amp still showing in customs. Been 10 days since I last heard from Henryk. I also filled out a new form on the Feliks Audio website asking for any further information they may have or need. 

Is that how they treat all customers? All I need is for them to say it's not gonna happen or they will get to it. I know you guys say to have patience,  but some sort of communication would be nice.


----------



## pctazhp

canthearyou said:


> Update: Amp still showing in customs. Been 10 days since I last heard from Henryk. I also filled out a new form on the Feliks Audio website asking for any further information they may have or need.
> 
> Is that how they treat all customers? All I need is for them to say it's not gonna happen or they will get to it. I know you guys say to have patience,  but some sort of communication would be nice.



As I think I may have said before it took about a week for both new Elise and Euforia to get from Poland to my door. I never returned one so I have no experience with that. I doubt anyone here can help because none of us can know what is going on in Poland. If it were me, I'd be sending FA an email each day until I received a satisfactory answer and resolution - employing the squeaky wheel approach.


----------



## connieflyer

I would agree with PCT, constant communication that YOU need information is a good way to go about it. If they see the same name each day it will  remind them that it is an ongoing problem.  I had trouble getting a response as well with my Euforia arrived damaged, and it was not handled in a expedious manner.  Being a small company, I am sure the;y have no pull with the government or the customs office.That being said, they should be in contact with you to let you know what the status is, whether they have it or still awaiting customs clearance.


----------



## mordy

connieflyer said:


> I would agree with PCT, constant communication that YOU need information is a good way to go about it. If they see the same name each day it will  remind them that it is an ongoing problem.  I had trouble getting a response as well with my Euforia arrived damaged, and it was not handled in a expedious manner.  Being a small company, I am sure the;y have no pull with the government or the customs office.That being said, they should be in contact with you to let you know what the status is, whether they have it or still awaiting customs clearance.



Read several stories on this forum about packages getting stuck in customs. At this time I am waiting for tubes shipped from Ukraine a month ago. The tracking shows that they are sitting in the US customs in New York for three weeks. There is nobody to talk to, nobody picks up the phone, and nobody answers a message.
Another shipment from Ukraine took five weeks to arrive, another 11 days; my GEC 6080 tubes just now arrived in 8 days(!)
There is no rhyme or reason, and you just have to sit tight and be patient.....


----------



## mondrax

Hey guys i am based in the US and just got a pair of Telefunken's El12's, from Germany  and  listening to them as we speak, it took a while to get them here and i was getting worried as well.  I have ordered some other things from Japan.  I would say yes patience is the key.  It also depends on how you pay for it,   Some credit cards Amex  or even PayPal give you protection. Pic of the El12, they are really out of this world.


----------



## mordy

mondrax said:


> Hey guys i am based in the US and just got a pair of Telefunken's El12's, from Germany  and  listening to them as we speak, it took a while to get them here and i was getting worried as well.  I have ordered some other things from Japan.  I would say yes patience is the key.  It also depends on how you pay for it,   Some credit cards Amex  or even PayPal give you protection. Pic of the El12, they are really out of this world.


Hi Mondrax,

Looking at your tubes it appears to me that you are using 2.5A power tubes. The EL12 draws 1.2A. The total current draw is then 7.4A which exceeds the specs of the Elise which allows for 6.8A.
Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## mondrax

Sorry to hear you are waiting  that long,  when i order things from Japan or China it takes a while   Sorry again if I sounded insensitive to your situation, but if they ensured  a delivery day, I would take action.   Again I am based in the US and dont  know where you are but New York is the slowest place to clear.   I hope your delivery gets to you soon.

M


----------



## pctazhp

No version of EL tubes is approved by FA (EL3N, EL11, EL12, EL12n, or EL12spez). Whenever using a tube not approved by FA, EXTREME CAUTION must be exercised. This has been discussed repeatedly on this and the Euforia thread.

@hypnos1 has discussed (here and/or on the Euforia thread) his comfort level with EL11 as drivers and EL12spez as power). I use that particular combo. The heater filament current draw of that combo is well under the FA specified limit. Nonetheless, it is not officially approved by FA.

Any time any EL tube is used with a non-EL tube, again extreme caution is strongly advised. Any use of a tube not specifically recommend by FA risks damage to the amp and very easily could void the warranty.


----------



## mondrax

pctazhp said:


> No version of EL tubes is approved by FA (EL3N, EL11, EL12, EL12n, or EL12spez). Whenever using a tube not approved by FA, EXTREME CAUTION must be exercised. This has been discussed repeatedly on this and the Euforia thread.
> 
> @hypnos1 has discussed (here and/or on the Euforia thread) his comfort level with EL11 as drivers and EL12spez as power). I use that particular combo. The heater filament current draw of that combo is well under the FA specified limit. Nonetheless, it is not officially approved by FA.
> 
> Any time any EL tube is used with a non-EL tube, again extreme caution is strongly advised. Any use of a tube not specifically recommend by FA risks damage to the amp and very easily could void the warranty.


----------



## pctazhp

http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el11.html

http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_el12.html


----------



## mondrax

Hey guys, 

You are like guardian angels.  I am going to check the specs once more.   They do sound great just like that but I don't want to start a fire in my house. 


Thanks for the advice,

As I mentioned before I really new at this.

But Love Music.

M


----------



## pctazhp

BTW @mordy   Great catch


----------



## mondrax

@mordy thanks


----------



## pctazhp

Speaking of customs, the US government must officially (and rightfully) recognize that people who live in Scottsdale are truly superior human beings. I've never had an incoming tube, amp, etc spend more than a day or two in customs and never have paid any duty. I'm pounding on some High Sonoran Desert sand that blew in this morning as I write this.


----------



## mondrax

I have been in many places, sand storms are a bitch.  Be safe.   

And once again thanks to all these folks here for sharing their knowledge.


M


----------



## hypnos1 (Sep 7, 2017)

mondrax said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> You are like guardian angels.  I am going to check the specs once more.   They do sound great just like that but I don't want to start a fire in my house.
> 
> ...



Hi mondrax. Glad you too have discovered the magic of EL tubes, but as @pctazhp has mentioned, you do need to be very careful of the total heater draw!

The EL12 is strictly a power tube, which is why we use the EL11 as drivers, making a total of 4.2 amps. And I personally have in fact always found the best performance to come from pairing just ELs.

As pct stated, these are indeed among tubes that are not officially sanctioned by F-A, but I have been using the 11/12 Spezial combo exclusively (in Euforia) for many months now, and without any ill effects whatsoever. My recent extensive temperature tests proved that ALL parts of the internals run far cooler than stock config'n, which is a very positive bonus lol! And in light of these results, Lukasz did mention to me that so long as there were no apparent untoward effects, they _could_ be safe to use after all...but they still can't OK them officially...And so I personally have no qualms at all about using them. In my own system, this combo has ousted what most would consider the absolute pinnacle of 6SN7/6AS7G tubes...without question!!

I wish you all the best in your tube journey and enjoyment of a wonderful amp...but please be careful lol.. ...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## mordy

Just want to add the there is extensive experience with the EL3N tube and it has been proven safe to use in the Elise/Euforia amps.


----------



## aqsw

Easiest way to check is run them for about an hour. Touch the transformer. IF you can fry an egg on it, change your tubes!


----------



## mondrax (Sep 7, 2017)

I did check the transformer, was not getting any hotter that other setups, the tubes were also not radiating much heat as other ones I have.   But to be on the safe side I need to do a bit more research.

Cheers 
M


----------



## angpsi

@Aornic's review of Elise. I'd say it's right on the money for one month's worth of listening.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Just want to add the there is extensive experience with the EL3N tube and it has been proven safe to use in the Elise/Euforia amps.



TOO TRUE, mordy...and thanks for the reminder. After all, the Philips-designed EL3N was indeed the initial "find of the Century" lol!...and which then led to the Telefunken-designed variant, the EL11. As we know, both are fabulous tubes, and usually a good bit cheaper than the 'top rank' 6SN7s. And the EL12 (especially the 'Spezial', top anode variant) is IMHO a match for *any* 6AS7G/6080..._depending, as usual, on system/ears/preferences_. As mentioned previously (many times lol!!), I myself now rate the 12 Spezial above even my beloved 'Holy Grail' GEC/Osram 6AS7G variants... and although not cheap now, they're still much cheaper than the GECs.

And yes again, given the hundreds of hours I've now used the 11/12 Spez combo (and previously the EL3N!) - as well as other users -  I do believe we can confidently say "proven safe to use"... ....CHEERS!...


----------



## Aornic

angpsi said:


> @Aornic's review of Elise. I'd say it's right on the money for one month's worth of listening.




Thanks. 

I also posted this on the Head-fi review listings. Also with the written review, which can be found here.


----------



## hypnos1 (Sep 7, 2017)

aqsw said:


> Easiest way to check is run them for about an hour. Touch the transformer. IF you can fry an egg on it, change your tubes!



Hi aq...(and @mondrax)... trouble is, capacitors and resistors can be reaching stress levels, even if the trafo isn't overheating terribly...especially over the *long* term, no? ...


----------



## mordy

aqsw said:


> Easiest way to check is run them for about an hour. Touch the transformer. IF you can fry an egg on it, change your tubes!



Hi aqsw,
Certain approved tubes run VERY hot. Recently bought a couple of Bendix 6080WB (labeled Raytheon), and measured F 209 with my infrared laser thermometer (the hottest I measured). I would say that the housing got hot enough for the egg trick..., even though I use socket savers as insulators.
I have my amp on a shelf in an equipment rack, and I mounted a discarded 4" PC fan above the amp so that it draws air away from the amp, and this helps to cool down the amp.


----------



## Oskari (Sep 7, 2017)

The music here is quite nice. The video not so much.


----------



## canthearyou

Update: I received an email from Henryk and he says the amp is still in customs and he has provided them with the documents they asked for. He said he has no control on the speed that customs processes it's packages.


----------



## connieflyer

A government entity is it's own worst enemy. They move at the pace that they want, when they want, well all you have invested is time and shipping, so you are in good shape


----------



## angpsi (Sep 13, 2017)

Hi guys,

So, on Sunday I went to a local mini can-jam meet and got the chance to listen to a good number of summit-fi gear. The guys who participated brought headphones such as the Abyss, the HiFiMan Susvara, and two HD800s—one modded and one stock—, along with a Mjolnir, a Mojo and a Fiio X5 gen3, plus high quality cables! I brought with me the Elise with all my tubes, the HD600, the Mimby/Eitr setup and my Benchmark DAC1. It was quite an experience, and I was really happy to meet all the wonderful people that attended.

Lucky for me the Elise on GEC6080/Sylvania 6sn7w plus HD600 held its own quite wonderfully, at least to my own ears. Against much pricier gear the combo actually felt like a very happily matched pair, producing a sound that was highly enjoyable albeit not reference class as the other gear. The Mjolnir was powerful enough to drive anything thrown at it, although it hardly did justice to beasts such as the $6000 Susvara. To be honest, I didn't really like the Mjolnir, perhaps gen2 is better. On the other hand, the Abyss was a revelation to my ears! Lucky for me, it actually trumped all the other gear available by such a margin that I didn't feel the need to leave my wonderful setup behind for anything less than that! I cannot stress that enough: the Elise plus HD600 is a match made in heaven, provided you are fine to settle for a truly musical but less than reference performance. I believe my impressions echo those of @Aornic to a great extend.

At the moment I am carrying the Mojo with me as a loaner, courtesy of one of the guys at the meet. It's a uniquely strong contender as a DAC, and I believe it can be a very capable yet different flavor than the Mimby. First impressions though, I believe that the Mimby is a better match to the kind of sound signature the Elise produces. I'll keep listening for the duration of the week and see what I come up with in the end.

Finally, the big surprise of the evening came from the FiiO X5 gen3. I have to admit that I don't really have any experience with DAPs, but what the FiiO did with my lowly Etymotic Hf3 was beyond belief. I am truly tempted!

All in all, I am happy to finally place my Elise amongst a constellation of truly amazing gear. It's definitely not the end of all that head-fi has to offer, but it's indeed _very_ good for what it does, and where it stands in the food chain. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't have the HD800 (modded or unmodded) over my HD600 for the Elise. IMO it's a whole different animal, and the HD600 is a much better match for the sound signature. Of course, as always, YMMV.

Looking forward to exploring the field more, I now realize it can be a truly exciting experience to pursue!

Best,
A.


----------



## Rossliew

Thanks for the meet impressions , angpsi. Have always been curious about the Abyss


----------



## pctazhp

@angpsi  Very interesting and informative post about the meet. Thanks a lot.

I've never been to a meet, but we have one scheduled here for Oct 21 and I'm planning to go. It looks like there will be a very impressive collection of gear there. I'll post the complete list as it firms up.


----------



## angpsi

Thanks guys, it sure was an informative experience!

On a different note, I just got me a set of HD650s! And a pair of Ken-Rad 6sn7gt / VT-231 staggered plates! I don't know, maybe the meet woke the spending beast in me...

HD600 vs. HD650 was always a battle I was looking to make happen. In the end, only one will survive (that means one is going off for sale when I decide)! Which one do you think will make it in the battlefield the Elise lays out for them?


----------



## richdytch

Hi folks, hope all's good in Eliseland. I have a question if you don't mind. Since I changed my power amp (again!) I've been using my old Chatham 6AS7G power tubes a lot, since with the Cyrus Stereo 200 they come alive in a way I'd not heard before. Full of body and plenty of 3d imaging... and they also don't have the sibilance which is apparent when I'm using EL12/EL12N in Elise, and the Cyrus. BUT, they seem to regularly do something which makes the protection circuit in the Cyrus shut off. I guess they cause the amp to occasionally leak DC. Maybe spikes. However, I've noticed that it only really happens when there are other people in the house! I'm wondering if other people constantly switching other equipment in the house on and off might be causing some fluctuations in the power supply. If that's the case, could that be causing the phenomenon I'm experiencing? 

Everyone else is out at school and work right now, and the setup seems stable. No outages in the last hour or so. I'm guessing that when it happens it's not causing any damage, since the Cyrus's protection is doing what it was designed to do. Protect. So I'm not overly worried. 

Thanks, Rich


----------



## richdytch

Update. Putting my transformer between the Elise and my power amp stops this issue. But since I got the Cyrus I prefer to not use the transformer, since it does audibly degrade the sound. I've come a way since the Quad 909 days, when the transformer made the whole setup sound _better. _The Quad can't compete with the Cyrus in terms of clarity and transparency. Or in control/weight. 

But the fact that the transformer sorts out this issue, does suggest that the Elise, with 6AS7G tubes is occasionally outputting DC. 

It seems that the issue occurs not just with Chatham 6AS7G in the power seat - it seems to happen with any 6AS7G/6080 I put in. The EL12 family do not seem to do this!


----------



## Oskari

_Bel, Bel, Bel_


----------



## canthearyou

Yet another update on the returning Elise to Poland saga. Henryk emailed some customs release forms for me to sign. Here's to getting my rebuilt Elise back before Christmas.


----------



## Oskari (Sep 22, 2017)

This is still the most beautiful thing ever. Can you top it?


_Solveigs sang_


----------



## connieflyer

I can try....


----------



## connieflyer (Sep 21, 2017)

Oskari, tried to view the video but it won't stream.  Will have to check later.  Love the song, either way
Who is the artist?  I am watching this one and she is quite good.  

This one has some nice shots of the Fiords in Norway


----------



## angpsi (Sep 22, 2017)

So, guys, yesterday a pair of HD650 arrived in the house. They were an interesting comparison with the HD600 on the Elise / GEC 6080 & Sylvania 6sn7w. According to my ears the HD600 were the better match, probably because of their flatter response, but also because the Elise aseems to tame their infamous treble peak, even though the tubes I’m using are anything but soft or mellow. On the other hand, the HD650’s darker tuning turned more pronounced on the Elise, and that although it was no mismatch, the HD600 was easily the better match.

Then I put the HD650 on a Mojo that I have with me as a loaner...

Man does this combo sing like an angel! The tight and dynamic rendering of the Mojo definitely allows the HD650 to sound so right they achieve greatness. I would argue that the ‘tuned’ signature of the latter softens the SS Δ/Σ character of the Mojo; but this comes at no expense to detail and dynamics (i.e. PRAT, I guess) in all the frequencies that are available to them. Instead, the HD600 sounded somewhat thin by comparison, certainly nothing like what they sounded with the Elise. As I said in a previous post, that combo even made me prefer the HD600 over the HD800 on the Elise! However, as I put the HD650 back on the Mojo, I found myself lost in music until the battery died...

So, once again I believe that the Elise carries a distinct, somewhat meatier, character, albeit probably not too ‘tubey’ - as all the rest of you maintain from your experience. The Elise is a hands down wonderful combination with the HD600. But after listening to the HD650 on the Mojo, I believe the latter is the better headphone of the two. Granted though, the Elise was playing with the Mimby / Eitr stack, so perhaps substituting it with the Mojo may tighten the sound of the Elise enough to turn the table around.

Today I’m also going to experiment with some of my other tubes. Plus it looks like my Ken-Rad 6sn7gt VT-231 staggered plates have arrived, so I’m going to have another parameter to factor in...


----------



## Oskari (Sep 22, 2017)

connieflyer said:


> Oskari, tried to view the video but it won't stream.  Will have to check later.  Love the song, either way
> Who is the artist?


I don't know what's wrong with it.

Sissel. Here's the link:



Ok. No link. But now it works for me.


----------



## Oskari

connieflyer said:


> I can try....


Sure is cute.


----------



## angpsi (Sep 23, 2017)

Quick follow-up: Mojo is better than Mimby/Eitr; and the Elise is still better with the HD600. Finally, the Ken-Rad 6sn7gt / VT-231 are _very_ good!

*EDIT: this is post 10.000.*

Didn't even realise it when I posted; @pctazhp, @connieflyer, @Oskari, @mordy, @hypnos1, @UntilThen, @DecentLevi @HOWIE13 and all the rest of the crew (sorry for the ones I forget to mention), it has been a pleasure!

Of course I'll still keep posting my impressions here but I believe my Elise trip has reached a summit and I'm now tempted to explore other routes. Currently looking to get a Mojo to use as a vehicle for the transition, I might be looking towards an amp/dac option such as Questyle 600i, or I may be joining all the rest of you in Eu_f_oria land.

Cheers!


----------



## angpsi

Post scriptum.

To honor my Elise, today I'm putting back on the Svetlana 6N13S and the Psvane UK6sn7 hifi series. The sound is surprising; I spent so much time with my premium tubes I forgot how pleasurable these can be. The Elise doesn't go anywhere near low with these tubes, but the sound is coherent, airy, and relaxed. Kanon Matsuda's piano sounds natural and effortless, and echoes brilliantly in the 'room' type of rendering the 'st' bottle types tend to do. So, although premium tubes thrust the Elise into a whole other level, stock configuration is nothing to be ashamed about but rather the opposite; namely, that Pop Henryk and the rest of the family have put together a very refined and effortless sound signature that can offer hours of musical enjoyment if someone is not fussing about the next ounce of audio perfection! Put it with a potent DAC (i'm currently using my loaner Mojo) and you have a brilliant moment in audio reproduction. Granted, I'm using the Sennheiser HD600/650 which are arguably the best match for the Elise—and that is from a technical standpoint, besides the obvious auditory one.

In the end, I wonder whether the Elise deserves to be recognised not as a testbed for tube rolling, but as an extremely well–designed amp that holds its place firmly in the mid-tier category as a brilliant, well–refined, and self–confident design of an amplifier.

Well done!


----------



## pctazhp

angpsi said:


> Post scriptum.
> 
> To honor my Elise, today I'm putting back on the Svetlana 6N13S and the Psvane UK6sn7 hifi series. The sound is surprising; I spent so much time with my premium tubes I forgot how pleasurable these can be. The Elise doesn't go anywhere near low with these tubes, but the sound is coherent, airy, and relaxed. Kanon Matsuda's piano sounds natural and effortless, and echoes brilliantly in the 'room' type of rendering the 'st' bottle types tend to do. So, although premium tubes thrust the Elise into a whole other level, stock configuration is nothing to be ashamed about but rather the opposite; namely, that Pop Henryk and the rest of the family have put together a very refined and effortless sound signature that can offer hours of musical enjoyment if someone is not fussing about the next ounce of audio perfection! Put it with a potent DAC (i'm currently using my loaner Mojo) and you have a brilliant moment in audio reproduction. Granted, I'm using the Sennheiser HD600/650 which are arguably the best match for the Elise—and that is from a technical standpoint, besides the obvious auditory one.
> 
> ...



Before I sold my Elise (because I had bought Euforia) I tried it with the Psvane drivers that came with Euforia and the Elise stock power tubes. With HD800S, my impression was very similar to yours. I was actually very pleasantly surprised.


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> This is still the most beautiful thing ever. Can you top it?
> 
> 
> _Solveigs sang_


 

Perhaps not, O...but a very close second, I reckon!!     :


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Quick follow-up: Mojo is better than Mimby/Eitr; and the Elise is still better with the HD600. Finally, the Ken-Rad 6sn7gt / VT-231 are _very_ good!
> 
> *EDIT: this is post 10.000.*
> 
> ...



Hi ang..."reached a summit"? That's what I thought many times, both with Elise and Euforia lol!! Amp and tubes are only a part of the equation, of course - successive upgrades re. source; DAC; headphones; mains power filtering/conditioning...and now interconnects and power cords, have all brought unexpectedly large improvements to what I thought was my 'end game'!

And most unexpected of all must be my recent substitution of 'ordinary' pure silver interconnects with cables using single crystal UPOCC silver (plus added UPOCC copper) that I terminated myself, saving $100s. These alone transformed Euforia's performance, and did wonders for my Beyer T1s...especially in the bass and treble departments - unbelievably so! I don't doubt Elise would also benefit in this way, amongst others...And fellow head-fier Acapella11 found similar improvements in his Questyle CMA800, driving his Norne Draug-cabled HD800. Both our amps were fed by the amazing Hugo2...

So I'm quite sure your Elise could still deliver a performance a good bit above your current state...but Euforia would definitely provide greater potential lol!! ...good luck with whichever path you choose, however...CJ

(ps. Or you could always just keep saving up 'til next year...Lukasz wants to enter 'summit-fi' territory, and the team is playing around with some very interesting ideas lol!!! )...CHEERS!...



angpsi said:


> Post scriptum.
> 
> To honor my Elise, today I'm putting back on the Svetlana 6N13S and the Psvane UK6sn7 hifi series. The sound is surprising; I spent so much time with my premium tubes I forgot how pleasurable these can be. The Elise doesn't go anywhere near low with these tubes, but the sound is coherent, airy, and relaxed. Kanon Matsuda's piano sounds natural and effortless, and echoes brilliantly in the 'room' type of rendering the 'st' bottle types tend to do. So, although premium tubes thrust the Elise into a whole other level, stock configuration is nothing to be ashamed about but rather the opposite; namely, that Pop Henryk and the rest of the family have put together a very refined and effortless sound signature that can offer hours of musical enjoyment if someone is not fussing about the next ounce of audio perfection! Put it with a potent DAC (i'm currently using my loaner Mojo) and you have a brilliant moment in audio reproduction. Granted, I'm using the Sennheiser HD600/650 which are arguably the best match for the Elise—and that is from a technical standpoint, besides the obvious auditory one.
> 
> ...



In the final analysis, you are of course right, mon ami. 

But we must also remember that it was F-A's amps' versatility/flexibility that also set them apart from the mainstream, and which was highlighted by the extensive tube rolling undertaken by a good many adventurous Elise owners over a long period of time. I doubt there would otherwise have been quite the same degree of interest shown - as evidenced by the actual number of Elise threads since my very first 'Prototype' one, and the unbelievable total number of posts (and 'views') subsequently. I have seen very few threads to match this unbridled enthusiasm!...(and for which the Feliks family themselves are extremely grateful lol!) .


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Perhaps not, O...but a very close second, I reckon!!     :


That is beautiful! Thanks for posting. What's lacking is the innocence of young Sissel.


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## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> That is beautiful! Thanks for posting. What's lacking is the innocence of young Sissel.



Aahhh...such sweet innocence indeed, O...but does such innocence really exist these days lol?!...(would like to think so... )...


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys...I have already posted this info on the Euforia thread, but it also applies here of course.

Unless you've been hibernating a while, you've probably heard the bombshell news re. F-A's difficult decision to raise thier prices across the board...and rather more than perhaps any of us expected! 

For various reasons this appears to have been unavoidable alas, and which have been explained in more detail over at the Euforia thread, so I shan't replicate here.

But what I shall repeat here is the better news that *non-EU countries  will be exempt from the 23% VAT charge*...which will help to soften the blow for some at least...

F-A have not made this decision lightly, and I personally don't envy them the difficult facts of life when trying to move a business forward - especially with the need to enter retail dealership territory, as opposed to relying on such as us here for future growth. The Feliks family deserve greater returns for all their dedicated hard work on our behalf, and I can only hope the special quality of their products is more widely recognised in a marketplace that will value their amps at the new price levels...difficult call lol!!...and I wish them all the very best of luck in this......


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## frederick-rea (Sep 29, 2017)

Hope you like GoGo Penguin in ELISE


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## aqsw (Sep 30, 2017)

Cool video, My daughter has a jazz performance degree with double bass.
She's a music teacher now, but her love is still double bass.

And Tuba


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## frederick-rea

Help. I need HELP
Hello everybody
The problem is:
As my reference valves are currently EL12, EL12 Spez (general); GEC6AS7round base (classical) for powers and definitely Tung Sol or Ken Rad 6F8g VT99 (which gave birth to VT231)

I bought this 2botled x EL12 from Telefunken to change with RSD EL12N on power seet, keeping the VT99 in place of the drivers
It turns out that the EL12 Telefunken after 10 minutes of heating begin to get out of control and twist to the point that I can not hear music. It begins to add some grain to the lows and with time they can´t handle the highs

The question I put is:
Is it because they are married to the VT99s, there is any problem with the drift in deriving so few Amperes?
1.2 + 1.2 + 0.6 + 0.6 »» 3.6A


----------



## Oskari

frederick-rea said:


> there is any problem with the drift in deriving so few Amperes?


I don't think that would be a problem.


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## Oskari (Sep 30, 2017)

hypnos1 said:


> Aahhh...such sweet innocence indeed, O...but does such innocence really exist these days lol?!...(would like to think so... )...


I think and hope it does, even if rarely.

Not here though:


_En sländas andetag_


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## Oskari (Oct 5, 2017)

I'm sorry, CF. I can't find a translation. _En sländas andetag_ = A dragonfly's breath.


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## Oskari (Oct 5, 2017)

_Amazing Grace_


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## Oskari

It's very peaceful around here. Just the place to listen to my favourite music. 


_Lake Street Dive: Mistakes_


----------



## Oskari

angpsi said:


> This is much more standards stuff - I love her "Live in Marciac"!



One of the highlights of this thread. Incredibly incredible, especially from 36:22 on.


----------



## DavidA

Oskari said:


> One of the highlights of this thread. Incredibly incredible, especially from 36:22 on.


Hiromi is one of my favorite and I'll have to say that this is by far the best thread with great music recommendations


----------



## mordy

frederick-rea said:


> Help. I need HELP
> Hello everybody
> The problem is:
> As my reference valves are currently EL12, EL12 Spez (general); GEC6AS7round base (classical) for powers and definitely Tung Sol or Ken Rad 6F8g VT99 (which gave birth to VT231)
> ...


Hi frederick-rea,

Just saw your post. The Telefunken EL12 are very temperamental, and a number of people have reported problems with them. It is likely that the specific tubes that you have  are causing the problem. (No such problems reported with EL12N, TFK EL12 Spezial or TFK EL11),

I have noticed problems with Valvo EL12 tubes with hum, and the two Telefunken EL12 tubes I got did not work at all. 

I think UT had a bad experience with an expensive NOS set. He got a replacement, but those tubes were also defective.


----------



## angpsi

Nice to see some action here in this thread, after all it’s where I mostly got to know you wonderful bunch, buy my Elise and hang out!

While my Elise is still for sale, I bought a pair of NOS Svetlana 6H5C (6N5S) from Langrex. Apparently these are slightly different than the stock 6H13C (6N13S) powers, and both of them are slightly different than the 6AS7g, electrically speaking. The 6H5C also seem to be the ‘military version’ of the stock 6H13C, and they are also slightly more expensive. Anyway, figured that if Langrex went into the trouble of stocking them, they might be worth a try.

Does anyone have experience with it?


----------



## Scutey

Really excited as I have just won an auction for a Elise, 1 year old, only has the stock tubes and a pair of GE 6as7ga but that's fine as I have a pile of 6as7g's and 6sn7's, hopefully should arrive on Wednesday, hoping it will be a good upgrade from my very good DV 336se. 

Also I was thinking of buying either a pair of 6n7g's (with adapters of course!), or a air of EL3N's, anybody have any thoughts on what to get first would be greatly appreciated!.


----------



## angpsi

Is it this one? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/192355601429

Wow, what a bargain price! Certainly a good upgrade although I haven’t any personal experience with the DV, but most owners here have been down this road so I’m just echoing past remarks.


----------



## Scutey

angpsi said:


> Is it this one? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/192355601429
> 
> Wow, what a bargain price! Certainly a good upgrade although I haven’t any personal experience with the DV, but most owners here have been down this road so I’m just echoing past remarks.


Yes it was that one. I was surprised I got it for 400, I was expecting it to go for over 500. Didn't really expect to win so was ecstatic when I did!. The price of a new one is just too much so I felt this was my chance to own one, can't wait to hear it in action. Just got a bit of money left over to get a pair of driver tubes, maybe 6n7g, el3n or maybe ecc31, but i'll give the stock tubes a go first.


----------



## angpsi

Scutey said:


> Yes it was that one. I was surprised I got it for 400, I was expecting it to go for over 500. Didn't really expect to win so was ecstatic when I did!. The price of a new one is just too much so I felt this was my chance to own one, can't wait to hear it in action. Just got a bit of money left over to get a pair of driver tubes, maybe 6n7g, el3n or maybe ecc31, but i'll give the stock tubes a go first.


As far as I can remember, the Tung-Sol reissues are nothing special to write home about. Personally I went straight to the Psvane UK 6sn7g which now come standard with the Euforia, and they can really be something worth mentioning. That said, if you browse through the posts here—or just go straight through the consolidated knowledge in page/post #1—you will see that the Elise really scales with the better tubes.

I used to be an advocate of the 'upgraded' stock configuration (i.e. Svetlana 6C13N & Psvane UK6sn7g), but at this point I have found my nirvana with the way pricier GEC 6080 and Ken-Rad 6sn7gt / VT-231. I also caught a glimpse of the amazing things a GEC A1834 / 6as7g can do but I had to let go because at the prices these are going I couldn't pair it (plus I'm selling off my Elise eventually).

If you're looking for a bargain–priced set of driver tubes, I believe @mordy is the more knowledgeable person here! Last I remember he was advocating for the Foton 6N8S.


----------



## Scutey

Yes I've had a good look page 1 which is very informative, up to page 50 now!. The EL11, EL12/12N and EL3N look very interesting, so at some point I will try some of those, fortunately I have 4 pairs of 6SN7 tubes including the Ken-Rad VT-231 and Shuguang Treasures and a few 6AS7G's so will have some fun with them first, but after that there seems to be enough tube rolling options to keep me occupied for a very long while, hopefully happy times ahead!.


----------



## angpsi

Always wanted to try the Shuguang Treasures, I wonder how they stack up to the Psvanes, they share the same bloodline after all.


----------



## Scutey

I got the Shuguangs from you no where again as a very lightly used matched pair for £30 to use in my DV, unfortunately they do hum a bit in the DV, sound good though, I would say just on the warm side of neutral, didn't give them much time because of it, although they were silent in my LD MK3, so keeping my fingers crossed they'll be quiet in the Elise so I can finally give them a good workout. As you say Psavnes/Shuguang defo share the same bloodline, don't actually know but would not be surprised if they are made in the same factory, that's another pair on my wish list, I did have a pair which I bought for my LD but they only sounded so so in that,although I had a different set up then.


----------



## Scutey

Not bad for £30. Please be quiet in the Elise!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Not bad for £30. Please be quiet in the Elise!.


I think that they will be quiet in the Elise - did you clean off the pins by gently scraping with a dull knife blade or similar?


----------



## Scutey

Hi mordy,
Not yet but I am going to give them, and others a scrape, also bought some Deoxit to give them a wipe as well, want them looking their best for when the Elise comes, hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Hi mordy,
> Not yet but I am going to give them, and others a scrape, also bought some Deoxit to give them a wipe as well, want them looking their best for when the Elise comes, hopefully tomorrow.



Hi Scutey...welcome to Elise Land...and WELL DONE on bagging yours for what is really silly money for such a good amp! . I'm sure you'll be very pleasantly surprised lol...

Sounds like you already have some very nice tubes, and if you can spare the time to go back over previous posts, you should find plenty of info on what might appeal to you most - no need to rush!! 

I, and a good few others, ended up preferring the triode-strapped pentodes - EL3N and EL11 as drivers, but they do need a good long burn-in if NOS before really delivering of their best. Prior to these, my favourite driver was the ECC31 (needs adapter also), but I personally don't like how hot they run the amp...(another good reason why I love the EL tubes - my Elise, and now the Euforia, run with case and trafo housing hardly even warm! And although not officially sanctioned by F-A, I have been running these tubes - with EL12 Spezial powers - exclusively now for nearly a year without the slightest hint of anything untoward, and in light of which Lukasz said these tubes should therefore be safe to use...).

I wish you all the best with your new acquisition, and many hours of HAPPY LISTENING....CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> It's very peaceful around here. Just the place to listen to my favourite music.
> 
> 
> _Lake Street Dive: Mistakes_




Peaceful O?...I must be slipping lol!!! ...but nice music! 

I shan't shatter your peace just now - or anyone else's - but I shall pass on a message from Lukasz re. *UPGRADES TO THE 2018 MODEL ELISE.......
*
In an attempt to ameliorate the recent price rise, F-A have brought forward some additional features for the Elise (and Euforia) :

1. A 'Soft Mute' at start and switch off, which I personally think is an extremely good feature - greatly reduces the stress on components/tubes/headphones.
2. An upgraded transformer, which is always a very welcome feature in any amp of course! ...(Euforia already has one...).

(Hey, O, mon ami....I could get used to this more concise delivery - leaves me more quality listening time lol!! ...CHEERS!...).


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Scutey...welcome to Elise Land...and WELL DONE on bagging yours for what is really silly money for such a good amp! . I'm sure you'll be very pleasantly surprised lol...
> 
> Sounds like you already have some very nice tubes, and if you can spare the time to go back over previous posts, you should find plenty of info on what might appeal to you most - no need to rush!!
> 
> ...


Hi hypnos,

Elise arrived today, yippee!. Thank you for the warm welcome, much appreciated!, I hope I can, in my own small way, chip in with some thoughts etc over the coming weeks/months.

I was amazed to get Elise for £400, my maximum bid was £465 and I didn't think for one minute it would win, but when the auction ended and i'd won I nearly fell off me chair with shock!.

Thanks also for your recommendation for the EL3N and E11, they are right at the top of my wish list,and hopefully they will be my first purchase for the Elise.

One thing I have been doing for the last 2 weeks is reading both this thread and also the Feliks-Audio ELISE...New thread, I've now read well over 100 pages from both, they are both very informative, and also very enjoyable to read, so also big thanks to you, gibosi, mordy, UntilThen and many others for all the reviews and posts, they really are invaluable!.

I know there are many pics on here of the Elise but I hope you will all in indulge, at least if only once, with a pic of mine!

Let the good tubes roll!


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> (Hey, O, mon ami....I could get used to this more concise delivery - leaves me more quality listening time lol!! ...CHEERS!...)


As always, CJ, you have my full support!


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Hi hypnos,
> 
> Elise arrived today, yippee!. Thank you for the warm welcome, much appreciated!, I hope I can, in my own small way, chip in with some thoughts etc over the coming weeks/months.
> 
> ...



Glad she arrived safe and sound, Scutey...and any and all photos are always welcome - (should be obligatory, as far as I'm concerned lol!!).

Congrats also on ploughing through a good few thread pages already...just a few more to go!!! There have been some wonderful times, with wonderful guys...and heaps of good advice and recommendations - on all sorts of topics, including music lol!!  So keep ploughing, mon ami...and don't forget to keep us all updated with your own progress and findings - not to mention recommendations. But most of all...ENJOY!!!..


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> As always, CJ, you have my full support!



SWEET, O!!....(I am now the Master of brevity lol! )...


----------



## Oskari

_Wide Open Spaces_


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Glad she arrived safe and sound, Scutey...and any and all photos are always welcome - (should be obligatory, as far as I'm concerned lol!!).
> 
> Congrats also on ploughing through a good few thread pages already...just a few more to go!!! There have been some wonderful times, with wonderful guys...and heaps of good advice and recommendations - on all sorts of topics, including music lol!!  So keep ploughing, mon ami...and don't forget to keep us all updated with your own progress and findings - not to mention recommendations. But most of all...ENJOY!!!..


Cheers hypnos I will!,

Had my first proper listen this eve, a good 3 hours, had a quick listen yesterday with the stock drivers, they're ok but nothing special, will give them another try later. I have a few tubes already, pairs of Chatham 6as7g, RCA 6as7g and Sylvania 6as7g and for drivers EH6SN7, KEN RAD-VT 231, Sylvania 6sn7 gtb, Shuguang Treasures and Tung Sol 6sn7 gtb, so they should keep me busy for a little while at least!. Todays choice was the stock powers and Syl gtb's, this is a very nice combo, the Syls are nice and clear, warm mids with good detail, smooth fairly extended highs, but not sparkly, and a decent amount bass thump,( I like a nice bass thump!), overall quite a dynamic tube without ever becoming fatiguing, paired with the Svetlanas which I find warmish, (but not as warm as the RCA's) are nicely detailed and airy, although bass maybe a little bit on the soft side, never the less well worth it's bargain price, overall a very nice combo.

One thing I have found with this amp, and it was the first thing that sprung into my head was how immersive the Elise is, sound is deep and wide, revealing layers of sound that I've not had in other amps I've used, you feel as if you can dive into a deep pool of sound, wonderfull!.


----------



## myphone (Nov 16, 2017)

Scutey said:


> Hi mordy,
> Not yet but I am going to give them, and others a scrape, also bought some Deoxit to give them a wipe as well, want them looking their best for when the Elise comes, hopefully tomorrow.



I have been using metal wire brushes to clean tube pins with great results.

Stiff one for large tubes like 6SN7/6AS7 and soft one for small tubes like 6DJ8


----------



## mordy

myphone said:


> I have been using metal wire brushes to clean tube pins with great results.
> 
> Stiff one for large tubes like 6SN7/6AS7 and soft one for small tubes like 6DJ8


Hi mp,

Sounds like a very good idea!


----------



## canthearyou

Still waiting. Package left Poland 7 days ago. No updates on tracking since then. 

At this moment I am currently turning my gaming/listening/place of solitude into a baby room.


----------



## Scutey

myphone said:


> I have been using metal wire brushes to clean tube pins with great results.
> 
> Stiff one for large tubes like 6SN7/6AS7 and soft one for small tubes like 6DJ8


That is a good idea, you've reminded me that I have a brush just like it, thanks!


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> Still waiting. Package left Poland 7 days ago. No updates on tracking since then.
> 
> At this moment I am currently turning my gaming/listening/place of solitude into a baby room.


Don't know where you are located - I am in the US and got my amp in four days.


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> Don't know where you are located - I am in the US and got my amp in four days.


I'm in the US. Michigan to be a bit more specific. Feliks shipped it out on the 9th. Tracking shows it leaving Poland on 10th. That's the last update available.


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## Scutey (Nov 18, 2017)

These go really well with the Elise, smooth extended highs, transparent detailed mids and warm yet tight bass with great slam, also good width, depth and excellent imaging. I've owned several pairs of Beyers but these are the warmest and the best I've heard, a superb modern, articulate and dynamic headphone and one, that, imo, suit the sound signature of the Elise perfectly.


----------



## Johnnysound (Nov 19, 2017)

angpsi said:


> Nice to see some action here in this thread, after all it’s where I mostly got to know you wonderful bunch, buy my Elise and hang out!
> 
> While my Elise is still for sale, I bought a pair of NOS Svetlana 6H5C (6N5S) from Langrex. Apparently these are slightly different than the stock 6H13C (6N13S) powers, and both of them are slightly different than the 6AS7g, electrically speaking. The 6H5C also seem to be the ‘military version’ of the stock 6H13C, and they are also slightly more expensive. Anyway, figured that if Langrex went into the trouble of stocking them, they might be worth a try.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with it?



Yes indeed, angpsi. I couldn’t resist getting very cheaply a late fifties vintage pair of 6H5Cs, that are a military version of the 6H13C, if only to test my Euforia with its “standard” tubes.  I do not think there is any significant electrical difference between them, other than a much longer life expectancy for the reinforced military version.  A very good sounding tube all around, with great bass and definition that is on par with some of the best American 6AS7Gs.  All this before proper burn-in, and Russian tubes (specially military versions) do need many hours to sound its best. Apart from its sonic virtues, those vintage 6H5Cs are really well made like a Russian tank, and look very nice with its big chrome bottom ..almost a collectible item


----------



## mordy

Johnnysound said:


> Yes indeed, angpsi. I couldn’t resist getting very cheaply a late fifties vintage pair of 6H5Cs, that are a military version of the 6H13C, if only to test my Euforia with its “standard” tubes.  I do not think there is any significant electrical difference between them, other than a much longer life expectancy for the reinforced military version.  A very good sounding tube all around, with great bass and definition that is on par with some of the best American 6AS7Gs.  All this before proper burn-in, and Russian tubes (specially military versions) do need many hours to sound its best. Apart from its sonic virtues, those vintage 6H5Cs are really well made like a Russian tank, and look very nice with its big chrome bottom ..almost a collectible item


In my search for the "perfect" combination of tubes for my Euforia amp I have ended up with a pair of GEC 6080 as drivers and a pair Russian Foton 6N8S ribbed plates from 1953.
Somehow this sounds so "right" to me that I have no desire to roll different tubes. I just turn on my system and enjoy the music and no extraneous thoughts enter my mind to try this or that.....
What's going on?


----------



## Scutey

Been enjoying the Elise so much since I got it a few days ago, tried lots of different genres through it, classical, jazz, folk, rock, prog, handles them all beautifully, but for the ultimate test, for me at least, how will it handle death metal, and in particular Triptykon?, this bands sound is very difficult to get right and a challenge for any set up, lots of heavy fuzzed out guitar riffs, very hard for any amp/headphone combo to get right, but the Elise and Beyer DT 1990 handle their sound with ease, brilliant!, is there nothing this stonking amp can't handle?


----------



## myphone

mordy said:


> In my search for the "perfect" combination of tubes for my Euforia amp I have ended up with a pair of GEC 6080 as drivers and a pair Russian Foton 6N8S ribbed plates from 1953.
> Somehow this sounds so "right" to me that I have no desire to roll different tubes. I just turn on my system and enjoy the music and no extraneous thoughts enter my mind to try this or that.....
> What's going on?



Mordy, that is the ultimate goal, enjoy the music.


----------



## mordy

myphone said:


> Mordy, that is the ultimate goal, enjoy the music.


Thanks, good to hear - thought something was wrong with me.......


----------



## Scutey (Nov 20, 2017)

Apologies for this if needed, but am I being thick, or is my natural caution justified?. came across these RFT EL11  on ebay, the price seems too good to be true,so am I missing something, or are they a good buy?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-EL11-RFT-VEB-telefunken-Pentode-Tube-Test/253243475823?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160727114228&meid=626814e0f47845bf8611af0b09b4e974&pid=100290&rk=2&rkt=4&sd=140643905482&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507


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## angpsi (Nov 21, 2017)

Scutey said:


> Apologies for this if needed, but am I being thick, or is my natural caution justified?. came across these RFT EL11  on ebay, the price seems too good to be true,so am I missing something, or are they a good buy?
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-EL11-RFT-VEB-telefunken-Pentode-Tube-Test/253243475823?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160727114228&meid=626814e0f47845bf8611af0b09b4e974&pid=100290&rk=2&rkt=4&sd=140643905482&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507


Back from the day when I was looking for EL tubes, I remember that RFT were always on the cheap side—the Telefunkens being the most sought after and therefore expensive. If you can spare €20, perhaps it's a good bargain. Furthermore, you may still be eligible for a return through eBay buyer's protection if you measure the tubes and find them not "NOS" as promised.

That being said, my general experience has been that you seldom get 'too good to be true' bottom prices without some hidden caveat. Plus, if you buy from a reputable seller for regular prices instead, you usually get the benefit of being able to return the tubes. Same applies if the seller provides measurements, so you can substantiate a claim if the tube is not as promised when it arrives.

My 2 cents.

EDIT: Oh, wait! That's the price _per tube,_ not for all three of them. So I think it's not a "too good to be true" price, just a nice regular one. See for comparison this selection here: http://stores.ebay.com/Technik-Antik-Harz/_i.html?_nkw=el11&submit=Search&_sid=97636402


----------



## canthearyou

I swear I have the worst luck with this amp! It's been 11 days since its last update on shipping.

Total days since I sent my amp out for repair: 110


----------



## Scutey

angpsi said:


> Back from the day when I was looking for EL tubes, I remember that RFT were always on the cheap side—the Telefunkens being the most sought after and therefore expensive. If you can spare €20, perhaps it's a good bargain. Furthermore, you may still be eligible for a return through eBay buyer's protection if you measure the tubes and find them not "NOS" as promised.
> 
> That being said, my general experience has been that you seldom get 'too good to be true' bottom prices without some hidden caveat. Plus, if you buy from a reputable seller for regular prices instead, you usually get the benefit of being able to return the tubes. Same applies if the seller provides measurements, so you can substantiate a claim if the tube is not as promised when it arrives.
> 
> ...


angpsi, thanks for your 2 cents!. You've said pretty much what I was thinking, just thought I would put it out there as I have nearly been caught out a couple times, sometimes you can't always see what's obvious to someone else!, as usual my natural caution kicked in, will give them some thought as they seem to look pukka, just not for too long as someone else will jump in!, maybe another Head-fi'er!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> angpsi, thanks for your 2 cents!. You've said pretty much what I was thinking, just thought I would put it out there as I have nearly been caught out a couple times, sometimes you can't always see what's obvious to someone else!, as usual my natural caution kicked in, will give them some thought as they seem to look pukka, just not for too long as someone else will jump in!, maybe another Head-fi'er!.


Hi Scutey,

All things being equal, I would wait for Telefunken tubes since those are considered the best EL11 tubes. I was able to buy two pairs of WW2 EL11 TFK tubes at good prices, but they were most likely used. Anyhow, they work well.  These tubes should last at least 10,000 hours, so I am not worried about buying used if they measure at least 75%.
The least expensive place is usually German eBay, but it seems to me that there is a different eBay culture in Germany. Based on my personal experiences some sellers will not send tubes to other countries, some don't accept PayPal (only bank transfers), and at times the packaging of the shipment is poor. A picture may show a tube with the original box, but the box is missing when it arrives; imperfections such as a loose base may not be mentioned in the description.
And if something goes wrong, at times the seller will try to give you less than a full refund....
On the plus side Deutche Post has some of the cheapest international shipping rates compared to other European countries, but the sellers don't always know about that, and you have to ask. There is a myth out there , verbalized by several sellers, that sending with the German post office (and not DHL etc at twice the price) will result in damage to the shipment, which is not true.
I always use Google translate if I have any questions.
_Ich verwende Google translate immer, wenn ich Fragen habe._
The above are just my personal experiences buying some 25 tubes from Germany and may not reflect other people's experiences.
Caveat Emptor!


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi Scutey,
> 
> All things being equal, I would wait for Telefunken tubes since those are considered the best EL11 tubes. I was able to buy two pairs of WW2 EL11 TFK tubes at good prices, but they were most likely used. Anyhow, they work well.  These tubes should last at least 10,000 hours, so I am not worried about buying used if they measure at least 75%.
> The least expensive place is usually German eBay, but it seems to me that there is a different eBay culture in Germany. Based on my personal experiences some sellers will not send tubes to other countries, some don't accept PayPal (only bank transfers), and at times the packaging of the shipment is poor. A picture may show a tube with the original box, but the box is missing when it arrives; imperfections such as a loose base may not be mentioned in the description.
> ...


Hi mordy,

Thanks for your input. I have never had a experience with buying from German eBay, forewarned is forearmed!, reading most of the Head-Fi posts/reviews seem to be mostly of the Telefunken EL11 tubes so I think i'll hang fire for a bit and just keep on looking, if i'm patient and keep looking regularly something will come up. In the meantime I've gone with a recommendation from hypnos and ordered a pair of NOS EL3N from Acoustic Dimension, they should keep me occupied while i'm searching for EL11's!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Hi mordy,
> 
> Thanks for your input. I have never had a experience with buying from German eBay, forewarned is forearmed!, reading most of the Head-Fi posts/reviews seem to be mostly of the Telefunken EL11 tubes so I think i'll hang fire for a bit and just keep on looking, if i'm patient and keep looking regularly something will come up. In the meantime I've gone with a recommendation from hypnos and ordered a pair of NOS EL3N from Acoustic Dimension, they should keep me occupied while i'm searching for EL11's!.


Hi Scutey,

It is definitively true that if you are patient and check often you will find what you want at the right price. Re the EL3N I ordered a number of those tubes from Acoustic Dimension - a very reputable and honest business. Just remember that the EL3N requires a very long time to burn in - a couple hundred hours, even though it sounds good after a short while, but it keeps improving.


----------



## Scutey

Hi mordy,

I think, as a general rule, patience brings it's own rewards, so I will be patient and look often!. As for the EL3N's thanks for letting me know, again I'll be patient!, I will probably leave them to an initial burn for 3-4 hours and the rest just listening, and enjoying the burn in journey, something I've always enjoyed as part of this hobby.


----------



## angpsi

Guys, may I introduce @firegon, who's now officially the new owner of my Elise! As for myself, I'll keep lurking around; you're a wonderful bunch and I'd miss your company!

Oh, btw, anyone in need of Ms Xuling's EL11/12 or EL12spez to 6sn7 adapters please let me know, I have a bunch of them and I'm based in the EU.


----------



## Scutey

angpsi said:


> Guys, may I introduce @firegon, who's now officially the new owner of my Elise! As for myself, I'll keep lurking around; you're a wonderful bunch and I'd miss your company!
> Congrats on selling your Elise and welcome to @Firefox from me
> Oh, btw, anyone in need of Ms Xuling's EL11/12 or EL12spez to 6sn7 adapters please let me know, I have a bunch of them and I'm based in the EU.


----------



## Scutey

These arrived today from Acoustic Dimension, Just 3 1/2 days from The Netherlands to SW England, arrived in pristine unused condition, these guys are excellent. Just the adapters to arrive and then audio nirvana will (hopefully) ensue!.


----------



## Oskari

Always pretty with the red skirt!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Guys, may I introduce @firegon, who's now officially the new owner of my Elise! As for myself, I'll keep lurking around; you're a wonderful bunch and I'd miss your company!
> 
> Oh, btw, anyone in need of Ms Xuling's EL11/12 or EL12spez to 6sn7 adapters please let me know, I have a bunch of them and I'm based in the EU.



Angelo what are you upgrading to?


----------



## Scutey

Oskari said:


> Always pretty with the red skirt!


Lol yes!, they're a snappy dresser!


----------



## angpsi (Nov 24, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> Angelo what are you upgrading to?


ATM happily pending in limbo with my new Mojo. Got me a Curious usb link too, this thing is phenomenal right out of the box. The combo can be pretty remarkable with my HD650, but it is especially great with my Etys - which I’m actually kind of rediscovering since, as it seems, I didn’t really know how good they can be! That being said, I still have the taste of my old Benchmark DAC1 on the Elise, it truly was a remarkable combination...

There are some things I need to to take care of before I spend money on a new amp; e.g. first I got to restore my HD600, that turned out to have a dent on one of the drivers. After this, I might be looking for a DAC for my stereo system. Lately these are usually coming with very good hp amp stages, so there might be an upgrade path for me in there. Finally, I might end up looking for a better pair of headphones, second hand prices on former flagships (e.g. the HD800) are dropping by the day).

And of course, I need to find a way to finance all that spending!


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> ATM happily pending in limbo with my new Mojo. Got me a Curious usb link too, this thing is phenomenal right out of the box. The combo can be pretty remarkable with my HD650, but it is especially great with my Etys - which I’m actually kind of rediscovering since, as it seems, I didn’t really know how good they can be! That being said, I still have the taste of my old Benchmark DAC1 on the Elise, it truly was a remarkable combination...
> 
> There are some things I need to to take care of before I spend money on a new amp; e.g. first I got to restore my HD600, that turned out to have a dent on one of the drivers. After this, I might be looking for a DAC for my stereo system. Lately these are usually coming with very good hp amp stages, so there might be an upgrade path for me in there. Finally, I might end up looking for a better pair of headphones, second hand prices on former flagships (e.g. the HD800) are dropping by the day).
> 
> And of course, I need to find a way to finance all that spending!



Mojo's pretty good as an amp/dac. It drove my LCD-2f sufficiently to enjoy it. However in the company of Yggdrasil and Ragnarok, it's just not getting use much. So I sold it after only 2 months.

Having a recess is good. There's no rush. Elise is good but the world's just waiting to be discovered. Wait till you hear a Woo Audio Wa5 or a WA33. It defines what high end means. My Glenn OTL should be ready soon. I'll be doing a review after I have sufficient time with it.

Good luck to your audio journey.


----------



## Scutey

I'm after a cheap set of powers, I've 2 in mind, the ge 6as7ga, which I already have pair of but also interested in the thomson 6080, there's not a lot of info on these part from a review on tubemaze, has anybody used the thomson?.


----------



## canthearyou

The saga of my Elise continues: If I don't get some sort of update either from Customs or USPS by next Wednesday I'm going to start a claim for a lost package. That Wednesday is 14 business days since my Elise left Feliks and 12 business days since it left Poland. 

Let me remind you I shipped this amp out on August 4th.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> I'm after a cheap set of powers, I've 2 in mind, the ge 6as7ga, which I already have pair of but also interested in the thomson 6080, there's not a lot of info on these part from a review on tubemaze, has anybody used the thomson?.


Hi Scutey,
You could look for the RCA 6080- sounds good and should be around $5 each if bought right. The RCA 6AS7G are very good and can be found for maybe $25/pair or less.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> The saga of my Elise continues: If I don't get some sort of update either from Customs or USPS by next Wednesday I'm going to start a claim for a lost package. That Wednesday is 14 business days since my Elise left Feliks and 12 business days since it left Poland.
> 
> Let me remind you I shipped this amp out on August 4th.


Hi canthearyou,

I have a pair of Foton tubes sitting in the US customs since Aug 16, 2017 - not a peep despite numerous inquires. However, PayPal sided with me and returned my payment.


----------



## canthearyou (Nov 24, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi canthearyou,
> 
> I have a pair of Foton tubes sitting in the US customs since Aug 16, 2017 - not a peep despite numerous inquires. However, PayPal sided with me and returned my payment.



That is absurd! I am pretty much set on NEVER purchasing an item from overseas. What's funny is when I ordered from Shenzhen Audio my package went through customs and made it to my home in 7 days from China.

Could you PM with the info you used to contact Customs?


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi Scutey,
> You could look for the RCA 6080- sounds good and should be around $5 each if bought right. The RCA 6AS7G are very good and can be found for maybe $25/pair or less.


Thanks for your  input mordy, I'll give the 6080's a look, the 6as7g's are my fave power tube, I was after an everyday tube so I will definitely give 6080 a look, at $5 each you can't really go wrong.


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi Scutey,
> You could look for the RCA 6080- sounds good and should be around $5 each if bought right. The RCA 6AS7G are very good and can be found for maybe $25/pair or less.


mordy,

I 'll go with your recommendation of the RCA 6080, managed to find 4 for £20, hopefully if my EL3N adapters arrive next week I can give them a run out with them.


----------



## UntilThen

canthearyou said:


> The saga of my Elise continues: If I don't get some sort of update either from Customs or USPS by next Wednesday I'm going to start a claim for a lost package. That Wednesday is 14 business days since my Elise left Feliks and 12 business days since it left Poland.
> 
> Let me remind you I shipped this amp out on August 4th.



Wow you have the patience of a saint. Get a refund and start anew.


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## HOWIE13 (Dec 4, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi canthearyou,
> 
> I have a pair of Foton tubes sitting in the US customs since Aug 16, 2017 - not a peep despite numerous inquires. However, PayPal sided with me and returned my payment.



A few weeks ago I had tubes purchased on eBay seized by US customs. I was informed it was because electronic vacuum tubes contain mercury and the tubes were therefore classed as hazardous.


----------



## canthearyou

I still have ZERO indication where it's at. Feliks Audio is helping to file a missing package claim.


----------



## mordy

HOWIE13 said:


> A few weeks ago I had tubes purchased on eBay seized by US customs. I was informed it was because electronic vacuum tubes contain mercury and the tubes were therefore classed as hazardous.


Hi H13,

They must have mixed up the getter flash with mercury lol.....


----------



## Scutey

Finally received my adapters, time to put these beauties  to the test.


----------



## canthearyou

I hope you guys aren't getting fed up with my updates on my Elise Amp. 

Well, some possibly good news. After what I assume was the package floating across the Atlantic for 30 days it finally made it to America! Now it is being held in customs and will hopefully be released very soon.


----------



## UntilThen

canthearyou said:


> I hope you guys aren't getting fed up with my updates on my Elise Amp.
> 
> Well, some possibly good news. After what I assume was the package floating across the Atlantic for 30 days it finally made it to America! Now it is being held in customs and will hopefully be released very soon.



I'm certainly not fed up with your updates. On the contrary I sympathise with you and am glad you're closer to getting Elise.


----------



## Johnnysound

Scutey said:


> mordy,
> 
> I 'll go with your recommendation of the RCA 6080, managed to find 4 for £20, hopefully if my EL3N adapters arrive next week I can give them a run out with them.



Yes indeed, the Elise/Euforia does like 6080 tubes.  And I am a big fan of “coke bottle” 6AS7Gs...but this particular amp can sing with nice 6080s.  I like the Tung-Sol/Chatham 6080, but the  Mullard 6080 or CV2984 is absolutely great in this amp...


----------



## Scutey

Johnnysound said:


> Yes indeed, the Elise/Euforia does like 6080 tubes.  And I am a big fan of “coke bottle” 6AS7Gs...but this particular amp can sing with nice 6080s.  I like the Tung-Sol/Chatham 6080, but the  Mullard 6080 or CV2984 is absolutely great in this amp...


My favourite so far, is the Mullard 6080,  RCA is also rather nice too, in rich, warm way, I would like to give the TS a try but i'll have to save up for that!.


----------



## Scutey

Guys I've been using my NOS EL3N's for the last  few days, I won't go into detail as that has been done far better than I can do, suffice to say that they are wonderful!, I do however have a small problem, they hum, albeit a fairly low level hum, I can't tell if it's coming from the adapter or the tubes, I realise that they are NOS and only have about 15 hours on them but would it be worth doing a burn in on my DV?, has this been a problem for anyone else with these tubes?.


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 9, 2017)

Hopefully the last update until I have my sweet Elise by my side. It cleared Customs and was released for final delivery!

I just hope all the time waited was worth it. I remembered the short time I had with it was amazing. It was just that faint noise that sounded like dirty vinyl being played, that made me send it for repair. 

But the music was just so natural and clean that I remembered falling asleep with my headphones on. And I don't mean it was boring.


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 11, 2017)

My Elise is finally back in my possession.
I went and picked it up from the P.O.

Total time:
How many days ago... 129 days
How many weeks ago... 18 weeks
How many months ago... 4 months
How many hours ago... 3096 hours
How many minutes ago... 185760 minutes
How many seconds ago... 11145600 seconds


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> My Elise is finally back in my possession.
> I went and picked it up from the P.O.
> 
> Total time:
> ...


All is well that ends well... How does it sound?
And there may still be hope for my Russian tubes that disappeared 8/16/17 in the US Customs.....


----------



## UntilThen

canthearyou said:


> My Elise is finally back in my possession.



It's a package I'm familiar with. I received Elise twice and Euforia once. All without any hassles. I don't know why yours take so long in customs. Happy for you though. You will enjoy Elise. Depending on how you approach head-fi, this could be the only amp you need or it could be the start of an audio discovery. Enjoy.


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 11, 2017)

UntilThen said:


> It's a package I'm familiar with. I received Elise twice and Euforia once. All without any hassles. I don't know why yours take so long in customs. Happy for you though. You will enjoy Elise. Depending on how you approach head-fi, this could be the only amp you need or it could be the start of an audio discovery. Enjoy.



This will be my End game amp for quite some time. Unless Feliks gets a U.S. distributor. Then I'd probably get a Euforia.



mordy said:


> All is well that ends well... How does it sound?
> And there may still be hope for my Russian tubes that disappeared 8/16/17 in the US Customs.....



Haven't even opened it up yet. I dropped it off at home and went back to work. Will get to listen in a few hours.


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## canthearyou (Dec 12, 2017)

I've been listening to the Elise all last night and left work early today to give it some more of my time. It is everything I remembered plus some.

The entire amp has been overhauled to 2018 standards. The only parts reused are the enclosure, transformers and RCA jacks on back.

The noise issue that it had when I received it prior is gone. Dead silent background when no music present.

The only way I can describe the sound is fluid and natural. Very relaxed, yet energetic at the same time. The presentation of music is almost 3D. The instruments are not just a sound on a flat plane, but an actual point in space. Feels like if I close my eyes I could reach out and touch Claptons guitar.

My headphones are McIntosh MHP1000 and K7XX. The K7XX have completely transformed when plugged into Elise. No longer a dull, soul less analytical headphone. But a musical and spacious sound. And also rather forgiving with the less than perfect recordings.
The McIntosh are a different animal. For a closed can they have a rather large soundstage. They are more detailed than the K7XX and retrieve quieter sounds a bit better. But this also leads to them sometimes not the best choice for less than perfect recordings.

I am using stock power tubes and the upgraded PSVane drivers. I MIGHT try a different tube based on this thread. We'll have to wait and see, though.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> I've been listening to the Elise all last night and left work early today to give it some more of my time. It is everything I remembered plus some.
> 
> The entire amp has been overhauled to 2018 standards. The only parts reused are the enclosure, transformers and RCA jacks on back.
> 
> ...



Hi cty,
Enjoy!  Take your time - the thread has many suggestions for improved sound from various tubes in all price ranges.


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 12, 2017)

I'm already curious about different tubes. I gave that EBay a look and tried to find a seller in the US. Are these even worth checking out?
Or would I be better off going with this?


----------



## mordy (Dec 13, 2017)

canthearyou said:


> I'm already curious about different tubes. I gave that EBay a look and tried to find a seller in the US. Are these even worth checking out?
> Or would I be better off going with this?


The Elektro-Harmonics look like current production Russian tubes; the Raytheon are very over priced. Cannot remember reading glowing reviews of either - don't think that they are worth getting since there are so many other better and cheaper alternatives.
Nothing wrong in ordering from abroad - if everything works out most tubes arrive in a reasonable time. Here is a tube for $20/pair shipped that is a real sleeper and an excellent tube:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...hash=item1ed4315571:m:mpgAbFtOIoPkWboWGSID9sw

Make sure to select Ribber Anode 1952-55


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 13, 2017)

mordy said:


> The Elektro-Harmonics look like current production Russian tubes; the Raytheon are very over priced. Cannot remember reading glowing reviews of either - don't think that they are worth getting since there are so many other better and cheaper alternatives.
> Nothing wrong in ordering from abroad - if everything works out most tubes arrive in a reasonable time. Here is a tube for $20/pair shipped that is a real sleeper and an excellent tube:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...hash=item1ed4315571:m:mpgAbFtOIoPkWboWGSID9sw
> ...



Thank you! Another question: is it better to buy matched pairs?


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> Thank you! Another question: is it better to buy matched pairs?


From what I read matched pairs are a waste of money......
A


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> From what I read matched pairs are a waste of money......
> A



Thanks again.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Scutey said:


> I'm after a cheap set of powers, I've 2 in mind, the ge 6as7ga, which I already have pair of but also interested in the thomson 6080, there's not a lot of info on these part from a review on tubemaze, has anybody used the thomson?.



I recently bought a pair of Tungsol 7236 power tubes, these have to be some of the best power tubes I’ve heard in the Elise


----------



## Scutey

SnapperMusicFan said:


> I recently bought a pair of Tungsol 7236 power tubes, these have to be some of the best power tubes I’ve heard in the Elise


Thanks for your input SMF, those TS are on my list for early 2018, the tube rolling never stops!.


----------



## Scutey

SnapperMusicFan said:


> I recently bought a pair of Tungsol 7236 power tubes, these have to be some of the best power tubes I’ve heard in the Elise


SMF . What is the bass like on the TS 7236?.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Scutey said:


> SMF . What is the bass like on the TS 7236?.


Hi Scutey,

In a word punchy.


----------



## Scutey

SnapperMusicFan said:


> Hi Scutey,
> 
> In a word punchy.


Hi SMF, That sounds just what i'm after, my fave power tube at the mo is the Mullard 6080, which has pretty good dynamics and bass, so the TS should be ideal, I've seen some on eBay at a reasonable price, so that will probably be my next purchase!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Hi SMF, That sounds just what i'm after, my fave power tube at the mo is the Mullard 6080, which has pretty good dynamics and bass, so the TS should be ideal, I've seen some on eBay at a reasonable price, so that will probably be my next purchase!.


Hi Scutey,
The 7236 are nice, but if you are saving up, you might as well get the best ones:
Tung Sol/Chatham 5998 with dimpled "domino" plates. Also appear rebranded here and there as IBM etc. Sometimes marked 6520 or 3999, but you have to look for those domino plates.
Bendix 6080WB with graphite plates. You can find them under the Tung Sol/Chatham labels, and also Raytheon, which may be the cheapest alternative - just make sure that they are Bendix graphite tubes and not regular 6080 Raytheon. Grahite plates only come in the WB designation.
GEC 6080. These are my current favorite, but they are very pricey. Try to find Haltron branded for less, or unbranded, but it means that you have to be familiar with how they look.


----------



## Oskari (Dec 15, 2017)

mordy said:


> Tung Sol/Chatham 5998 with dimpled "domino" plates. Also appear rebranded here and there as IBM etc. Sometimes marked 6520 or 3999, but you have to look for those domino plates.


I think you meant 2399 (instead of 3999).


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi Scutey,
> The 7236 are nice, but if you are saving up, you might as well get the best ones:
> Tung Sol/Chatham 5998 with dimpled "domino" plates. Also appear rebranded here and there as IBM etc. Sometimes marked 6520 or 3999, but you have to look for those domino plates.
> Bendix 6080WB with graphite plates. You can find them under the Tung Sol/Chatham labels, and also Raytheon, which may be the cheapest alternative - just make sure that they are Bendix graphite tubes and not regular 6080 Raytheon. Grahite plates only come in the WB designation.
> GEC 6080. These are my current favorite, but they are very pricey. Try to find Haltron branded for less, or unbranded, but it means that you have to be familiar with how they look.


Hi mordy,
Thanks for your input. I'd be very happy to own any of those that you mentioned, the ones i'd really like to get are the TS 5998, or any of the others, problem for me is living in the UK, almost all that are for sale are in the US meaning postage and customs/duty can make it prohibitively expensive, however I am saving up for a really nice pair, and I am patient, I usually look at least twice a day, and with a bit of that patience I will hopefully in the not too distant future be able to get a pair of any those that you mentioned, I like to go by the motto "good things come to those who wait" !.


----------



## Oskari

_Alison Krauss: Down To The River To Pray_


----------



## Scutey

mordy,
I did act on your earlier recommendation, for a cheap power tube, the RCA 6080, which is a very nice tube, warm, smooth with a nice timbre, goes well with brighter drivers, cheers!.


----------



## Oskari

_Leevi and the Leavings: Itkisitkö onnesta_


----------



## Oskari

_Khachaturian: Adagio from Spartacus_


----------



## Johnnysound

canthearyou said:


> I'm already curious about different tubes. I gave that EBay a look and tried to find a seller in the US. Are these even worth checking out?
> Or would I be better off going with this?



No way !!  ridiculously overpriced tubes, stay away from that seller.  There are many very nice NOS 6SN7GTBs tubes around, on sale for a lot less, I have a few.  Another matter is how they sound in the Elise/Euforia, as I said before a demanding amp that "likes" some tubes much more than others.  For example, some 6SN7GTBs that sounded great in my old fully modded LD amp, do not perform  the same in the Elise/Euforia.  Some GTBs that are very nice in this amp are the Sylvania chrome tops from late fifties vintage, the ITT/Hitachi or Raytheon/Toshibas.  The Sylvanias are much more common, and I think you can get a really good pair for around $40....


----------



## canthearyou

Johnnysound said:


> No way !!  ridiculously overpriced tubes, stay away from that seller.  There are many very nice NOS 6SN7GTBs tubes around, on sale for a lot less, I have a few.  Another matter is how they sound in the Elise/Euforia, as I said before a demanding amp that "likes" some tubes much more than others.  For example, some 6SN7GTBs that sounded great in my old fully modded LD amp, do not perform  the same in the Elise/Euforia.  Some GTBs that are very nice in this amp are the Sylvania chrome tops from late fifties vintage, the ITT/Hitachi or Raytheon/Toshibas.  The Sylvanias are much more common, and I think you can get a really good pair for around $40....



Thank you for that info.


----------



## canthearyou

My area of solitude.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> My area of solitude.


Nice set up CHY, how do you find the psvane?.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> I'm already curious about different tubes. I gave that EBay a look and tried to find a seller in the US. Are these even worth checking out?
> Or would I be better off going with this?


cty, other tubes worth looking at are Tung Sol 6sn7gtb, they have a similar sound to the Syl gtb and can be had for well under $100, others are Sylvania's branded as Philco, Magnavox and Baldwin which can be cheaper again, also, but rarer but give a nice sound is the Channel Master gtb, again can be had for fairly small $, also don't discount lightly used tubes, I have quite a few and, if chosen carefully can be had for less than NOS and will still give you most of their useable life.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> Nice set up CHY, how do you find the psvane?.



The whole set-up sounds great. I'm looking to find a tube that ever so slightly tames the top end.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> cty, other tubes worth looking at are Tung Sol 6sn7gtb, they have a similar sound to the Syl gtb and can be had for well under $100, others are Sylvania's branded as Philco, Magnavox and Baldwin which can be cheaper again, also, but rarer but give a nice sound is the Channel Master gtb, again can be had for fairly small $, also don't discount lightly used tubes, I have quite a few and, if chosen carefully can be had for less than NOS and will still give you most of their useable life.



I have some Tung Sol 6sn7gtb on the way. Thanks!


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> The whole set-up sounds great. I'm looking to find a tube that ever so slightly tames the top end.


cty, an RCA gt grey glass for drivers will certainly tame highs, for powers I've also found RCA 6080, not mil spec and GE 6AS7GA do a good job of taming drivers, the GE is a little more detailed and resolving with decent lows, the RCA is more laid back, more lush and a bit more musical, both nice budget powers, the RCA gt grey glass can be expensive but I've managed to bag a few bargains. Btw the TS gtb along with the Sylvania gtb are the nicest of the gtb's, enjoy your TS!.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> I have some Tung Sol 6sn7gtb on the way. Thanks!


I have the Sylvania Chrome Tops, The Channel Master (=Japanese NEC) and the Tung Sols plus a bunch of others, and the Foton Ribbed Anode 6N8S sounds better IMHO - $20 shipped for a pair.
Maybe worth trying.....


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> I have the Sylvania Chrome Tops, The Channel Master (=Japanese NEC) and the Tung Sols plus a bunch of others, and the Foton Ribbed Anode 6N8S sounds better IMHO - $20 shipped for a pair.
> Maybe worth trying.....


Well I have a pair of the Foton on the way, for $20 you can't really go wrong and if I like them i'll probably get a couple more pairs.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Well I have a pair of the Foton on the way, for $20 you can't really go wrong and if I like them i'll probably get a couple more pairs.


Please let me know your impression when you get them,


----------



## Scutey

mordy, Yes I will definitely let you know my impression of them,  you were spot on with your recommendation for the RCA 6080, so looking forward to giving those Fotons a good listen.


----------



## Scutey

I know this is something we all get with this hobby of ours, and for me was one of those jaw dropping times in the first few moment I heard this album, with GE 6AS7GA  and EL3N's up front, the remastered sound is fantastic, a few minutes in there is a seemingly random tap tap tap, I guess by the drummer but seems to have nothing to do with the music, but so realistic was the sound coming from my headphones that it made me jump out of my skin!, because at the time I was alone in my house and I though someone had broken in!, I even got up and checked the house and it was only when I listened again that I realised it was on the recording!.


----------



## canthearyou

I got a few pairs of tubes on the way. Also a R2R DAC to see what's the deal with them.


----------



## attmci (Dec 17, 2017)

Scutey said:


> cty, an RCA gt grey glass for drivers will certainly tame highs, for powers I've also found RCA 6080, not mil spec and GE 6AS7GA do a good job of taming drivers, the GE is a little more detailed and resolving with decent lows, the RCA is more laid back, more lush and a bit more musical, both nice budget powers, the RCA gt grey glass can be expensive but I've managed to bag a few bargains. Btw the TS gtb along with the Sylvania gtb are the nicest of the gtb's, enjoy your TS!.


Those are not great tubes......

Get these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNG-SOL-5...031412?hash=item48a5f65c34:g:FwIAAOSwFyhaLbi-


----------



## canthearyou

Heres what I've bought. Hopefully at least one sounds decent.


----------



## attmci

canthearyou said:


> Heres what I've bought. Hopefully at least one sounds decent.


Decent price. But you get what you paid for. Enjoy.


----------



## canthearyou

attmci said:


> Decent price. But you get what you paid for. Enjoy.


I see a bunch of tubes ranging in price from a few bucks to a couple hundred dollars. What is too much to spend? Is there a definitive "end game" tube out there?


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> I see a bunch of tubes ranging in price from a few bucks to a couple hundred dollars. What is too much to spend? Is there a definitive "end game" tube out there?


Hi cty,
The RCA with the Fotons is a very nice and inexpensive combination. 
Many times there is no correlation between price and performance. And the same tube from a professional seller could cost 10 times more than from somebody selling off his grandfather's radio repair shop. It pays to be knowledgeable about the tubes.
The 5998 tubes listed above seem to be real thing and are regarded very highly, but I don't know what it means "tested good." The price is decent.
The GEC 6AS7 are supposed to be among the best power tubes, but they cost around $500/pair now. Certain 6SN7 Sylvania and Tung Sol driver tubes go for hundreds of dollars. I would venture to say that the RCA/Foton combination gives you more than 80% of the performance of the most expensive ones at a fraction of the cost.
What is too much to spend? All I know is that armed with patience and knowledge you can find bargains of even very expensive tubes...
End game depends a lot on your taste. 
Some people listen to their equipment, and some to the music. Whatever floats your boat.....
The main thing is to enjoy your listening.


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> Hi cty,
> The RCA with the Fotons is a very nice and inexpensive combination.
> Many times there is no correlation between price and performance. And the same tube from a professional seller could cost 10 times more than from somebody selling off his grandfather's radio repair shop. It pays to be knowledgeable about the tubes.
> The 5998 tubes listed above seem to be real thing and are regarded very highly, but I don't know what it means "tested good." The price is decent.
> ...



That info is appreciated. Thank you! Is there a tube trader/buyer website, or does one just keep browsing eBay?


----------



## Scutey

attmci said:


> Those are not great tubes......
> 
> Get these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNG-SOL-5...031412?hash=item48a5f65c34:g:FwIAAOSwFyhaLbi-


That depends on your point of view, and other reasons as well, I'm sure the TS 5998 is a very nice tube but not everybody can stretch to even that price even if it does seem something of a bargain.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Heres what I've bought. Hopefully at least one sounds decent.


Some nice tubes there cty, they should keep you busy for a while, btw I was going to bid on those RCA's but I forgot to put a bid in,bit of a bargain too but I won't hold that against you! lol, enjoy your tubes!.


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 20, 2017)

I received my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB today. Very first impressions are not that great. All music sounds very congested. Hopefully they loosen up a bit after some run time.


These tubes seem to have a higher gain than the PSVanes.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> I received my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB today. Very first impressions are not that great. All music sounds very congested. Hopefully they loosen up a bit after some run time.
> 
> These tubes seem to have a higher gain than the PSVanes.


I find the TS reissue to be ok, they will need some burn in plus some head burn in as well, I have both the reissue and tall bottle old stock and the old stock are better, but given time you might like them, they might also sound better with a different power tube as well, GE 6AS7GA, Mullard 6080 etc.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> I received my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB today. Very first impressions are not that great. All music sounds very congested. Hopefully they loosen up a bit after some run time.
> 
> These tubes seem to have a higher gain than the PSVanes.




I have these tubes and while they are OK I never really liked them - too slow and syrupy in my system.


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 21, 2017)

mordy said:


> I have these tubes and while they are OK I never really liked them - too slow and syrupy in my system.



So far I'm not that impressed. I'll use it till my other tubes get here. Since they are coming from overseas that will probably be a month.

Edit: I couldn't take them any longer. I switched back to the PSVanes. Instant clarity, depth and width. I'll swap them back tomorrow and let them burn in for a bit longer. Right now I have some music to hear.


----------



## Scutey

Christmas pressie to myself, a pair of Tung Sol 7236 and Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 on their way.


----------



## canthearyou

Received my new Denafrips Ares DAC and a pair of RCA power tubes. The tubes aren't even a physical match. Should I return them? I didn't even install them yet.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Received my new Denafrips Ares DAC and a pair of RCA power tubes. The tubes aren't even a physical match. Should I return them? I didn't even install them yet.


How were they advertised and have you tried them yet?, If not I would try them first and have a good listen, also are they balanced eg same readings, I use tubes that are not a physical match without any problems, but if you're not happy then maybe get in touch with the seller.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> How were they advertised and have you tried them yet?, If not I would try them first and have a good listen, also are they balanced eg same readings, I use tubes that are not a physical match without any problems, but if you're not happy then maybe get in touch with the seller.



They are matched per electrical ratings. The ad does show the actual tubes I received. My fault for not looking closely. I'm gonna give them a try to make sure they work. But I can't keep them because it will drive me crazy. So I'll list them in the classifieds.


----------



## Scutey

cty I think we've all done it, I have!, on the other hand if you give them a try you might like them too much to  sell them!.


----------



## attmci (Dec 22, 2017)

canthearyou said:


> I received my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB today. Very first impressions are not that great. All music sounds very congested. Hopefully they loosen up a bit after some run time.
> 
> These tubes seem to have a higher gain than the PSVanes.


I assume they should have the same gain. Give the pair of tubes some time.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/images/File/6SN7GTB-GE.pdf


----------



## canthearyou

attmci said:


> I assume they should have the same gain. Give the pair of tubes some time.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/
> 
> http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/images/File/6SN7GTB-GE.pdf



Thanks for that Head-fi link. Just what I needed.


----------



## attmci

canthearyou said:


> Thanks for that Head-fi link. Just what I needed.


Then you need these too: 



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6bl7-tube-users.806043/


----------



## canthearyou

attmci said:


> Then you need these too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Awesome! I'll do some reading tonight.


----------



## Scutey

This sounds wonderful with ge 6as7ga and el3n for drivers


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> Received my new Denafrips Ares DAC and a pair of RCA power tubes. The tubes aren't even a physical match. Should I return them? I didn't even install them yet.


Hi cty,

Agree with the above - give the tubes a try and see if you can hear a difference, and of course, if you like them,
Some people are very sensitive to aesthetics, but for me the sound is the main thing. There are great sounding tubes that barely have a tube glow, and others that look like fireworks but sound mediocre. 
And I also learned your lesson - you have to look very carefully at the pictures and the description. I think that buying mistakes happen to all of us, but if the seller misrepresented the tubes, eBay and PayPal provides solid back-up in my experience.
Good luck!


----------



## canthearyou

I decided to put the Tung-Sol tubes back in and give them so burn-in time. After almost 24 hours they do sound a bit better. While not as spacious as the PSVane, it does have more "meat" or weight in the mids.

As far as the power tubes go I can't hear a difference between the stock tubes and the RCA. So I'm going to stick with the stock .....for now.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> I decided to put the Tung-Sol tubes back in and give them so burn-in time. After almost 24 hours they do sound a bit better. While not as spacious as the PSVane, it does have more "meat" or weight in the mids.
> 
> As far as the power tubes go I can't hear a difference between the stock tubes and the RCA. So I'm going to stick with the stock .....for now.


I know not everybody is keen on the 6n13s/6h13c but I think, for the money, it's a very decent tube, i'm using mine at the mo with el3n for drivers, gives a nice airy/spacious sound, my personal fave for powers is the Mullard 6080, not as airy as the st shape tubes, but has more focus, more agile, with better detail and dynamics.


----------



## hypnos1 (Dec 25, 2017)

*A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!...CHEERS!...
*
Glad to see continued positive impressions and enjoyment of Elise...the choice of tubes can indeed sometimes be almost _too_ vast lol! But at least there are combinations that will suit everyone in the end lol!  I would just remind folks that sometimes it can take many hours' burn-in before a tube approaches anywhere near its full potential, especially if NOS...

I wish you all continued enjoyment of your Elises, and further interesting discoveries as you experiment with different tubes...not to mention ancillary gear!...CJ


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!...CHEERS!...


A merry Xmas to you and yours, CJ, and everybody around here.


----------



## Rossliew

Merry Christmas to fellow Elise owners!


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> *A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!...CHEERS!...
> *
> Glad to see continued positive impressions and enjoyment of Elise...the choice of tubes can indeed sometimes be almost _too_ vast lol! But at least there are combinations that will suit everyone in the end lol!  I would just remind folks that sometimes it can take many hours' burn-in before a tube approaches anywhere near its full potential, especially if NOS...
> 
> I wish you all continued enjoyment of your Elises, and further interesting discoveries as you experiment with different tubes...not to mention ancillay gear!...CJ


Happy Christmas h1 and to all Elise owners, still finding my right combo, but having a great time finding out!


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Happy Christmas h1 and to all Elise owners, still finding my right combo, but having a great time finding out!



Thanks Scutey....and to you @Oskari ....I hope you're enjoying the festivities to the full, along with the rest of us 'Lucky Ones'!

I'm afraid mine have had to be postponed due to a rather nasty 'flu-like virus, and over a week with no gorgeous music soothing the fevered brow just makes things ten times worse lol!! ...so roll on New Year...and very probable Euforic overdose! (if that's at all possible?!!!).

Although there are some who question just how much we 'mad' rollers sometimes spend on trying different tubes - with a certain justification, I often think!  - I must admit that the 2+ years of filling my loft (attic) with countless boxes has brought great enjoyment over and above the obvious, specific reasons of interest and discovery...there's a whole host of other associated areas that open up and draw our attention..._snowball_-like (er...sorry!! )...much more so than any SS amp would, I'm sure lol! . I never dreamt this 'ancient' world of vacuumed glass could/would do this to such a degree...and I'm _still_ hooked!! (In a way, I'm just hoping F-A's new flagship amp - still in early developmental stage - doesn't completely trounce my maxed-out Euforia. The temptation to try out different 2A3 tubes would surely be a hole FAR too deep!! ...or would it???!!!...there's no hope for me, methinks!! . (May this be a warning to you, S...take heed!! )

At this point I shall repeat my best wishes for @pctazhp's speedy recovery and return to our fold...he is much missed....CHEERS!...


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks Scutey....and to you @Oskari ....I hope you're enjoying the festivities to the full, along with the rest of us 'Lucky Ones'!
> 
> I'm afraid mine have had to be postponed due to a rather nasty 'flu-like virus, and over a week with no gorgeous music soothing the fevered brow just makes things ten times worse lol!! ...so roll on New Year...and very probable Euforic overdose! (if that's at all possible?!!!).
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear you've not been too well h1, I had the lurgy in oct, not nice!, and what is worse, as you said, no amp action, I feel for you h1, hope you have a speedy recovery. As you alluded to, tube rolling really can be a somewhat irrational pastime, having said that, two years ago I was a SS fanboy, didn't get all this love for tube amps/rolling, but something changed, got my first tube amp, a LD MKIII, last year and it's been a slippery slope ever since! lol, two more tube amps and lots of tube rolling later I arrived at the Elise and I have to say I absolutely love it, don't regret splashing out on it and all the tube rolling I've done for it, four more pairs are on their way!, I still have a SS amp which I used to rotate with my tube amp but since getting the Elise it hasn't had a look in. when I bought the Elise I did so going on what I had read in these threads regarding it's aural prowess, I was slightly apprehensive having paid out rather a lot for it, I needn't have worried though, as everything that has been said about this fantastic amp is true, so thanks to everyone who has contributed to this and the other Elise threads, and long may it continue!


----------



## firegon

Warm greetings ( and Happy New Year in advance ) to the whole Elise Headfi community!

I've spent quite some time with the Elise bought from a fellow headfier and decided to write my first ever official post in this topic. Hopefully it won't be removed 

I have the 2016 version with upgraded 2017 stock tubes, nothing fancy, no tuberolling yet. And I honestly don't feel the need to. Definitely will try a certain combination at some point, but first my ears need to get "bored" with the current sound.
So far, the best match I've found are either T1v2 or my modded wooden DT990s (MDR-R10 like cups ). The soundstage, the detail, the bass - all sublime. There is so much air and space between instruments, absolutely staggering. In my mind, it achieves the tonal perfection with T1v2, Bryston BHA-1 for example makes it way too rough and "meaty", while things like Cayin iHA6 seem to be too thin and unimpactful. It also tempers the highs in T1v2, something that no solid state I've ever tested could achieve. Sadly it does not negate the echo ( yet again, haven't found a single amp that would be able to do it ) , but that's a small price to pay for such an amazing experience.
I've also tested HD600 and while the sound is much better than anticipated, It still doesn't quite match the results achieved with Beyers.
Oh and I'm using the Antelope Zodiac Silver DAC + Antelope Voltikus. 

I must say, Feliks Audio is not really too popular in Poland - quite surprisingly as it is the home of Feliks Audio. Especially Elise and Euphoria, due to their rather hefty price tag, seem to be overshadowed by Dubiels or WBAs creations. That's why I considered buying Elise a risky gamble - and it actually paid off.


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Sorry to hear you've not been too well h1, I had the lurgy in oct, not nice!, and what is worse, as you said, no amp action, I feel for you h1, hope you have a speedy recovery. As you alluded to, tube rolling really can be a somewhat irrational pastime, having said that, two years ago I was a SS fanboy, didn't get all this love for tube amps/rolling, but something changed, got my first tube amp, a LD MKIII, last year and it's been a slippery slope ever since! lol, two more tube amps and lots of tube rolling later I arrived at the Elise and I have to say I absolutely love it, don't regret splashing out on it and all the tube rolling I've done for it, four more pairs are on their way!, I still have a SS amp which I used to rotate with my tube amp but since getting the Elise it hasn't had a look in. when I bought the Elise I did so going on what I had read in these threads regarding it's aural prowess, I was slightly apprehensive having paid out rather a lot for it, I needn't have worried though, as everything that has been said about this fantastic amp is true, so thanks to everyone who has contributed to this and the other Elise threads, and long may it continue!



Aha, Scutey....looks like I was too late with my warning lol!! ...but then, I wouldn't really want to deny you the undoubted joys of such addiction...ENJOY!!!...

ps Thanks for your kind words...I'm just hoping the Doc doesn't confirm what looks to me rather too much like a Chicken Pox rash!! ...(_I need my fix!!!_)...


----------



## canthearyou

firegon said:


> Warm greetings ( and Happy New Year in advance ) to the whole Elise Headfi community!
> 
> I've spent quite some time with the Elise bought from a fellow headfier and decided to write my first ever official post in this topic. Hopefully it won't be removed
> 
> ...



Glad to hear you are enjoying the Elise. It is something else. I am very curious to demo the Beyer T1.2 and DT1990. I very much enjoy the McIntosh MHP-1000, but wonder if I'm missing the open can.


----------



## firegon

canthearyou said:


> Glad to hear you are enjoying the Elise. It is something else. I am very curious to demo the Beyer T1.2 and DT1990. I very much enjoy the McIntosh MHP-1000, but wonder if I'm missing the open can.


I've tested DT1990 with Elise and this combination would probably require some slight adjustments. Copper cable, different tubes ... or both. 
DT1990 are fabulous, much improved over the old T90, but the highs are still a bit too tiring and sharp, at least for my liking. On the other hand, you'll get extreme levels of detail, fantastic low end, a bit more intimate vocals. The biggest difference are the soundstage and imagining, both on another level when it comes to T1v2.


----------



## hypnos1

firegon said:


> Warm greetings ( and Happy New Year in advance ) to the whole Elise Headfi community!
> 
> I've spent quite some time with the Elise bought from a fellow headfier and decided to write my first ever official post in this topic. Hopefully it won't be removed
> 
> ...



Hi firegon and welcome to our club. Although I've now got the Euforia, I agree with everything you say about Elise...as do other lucky owners lol! And am glad the gamble paid off for you .

I too love the sound that comes from these amps via the Beyers - mine being v1. I must admit, one does need to be a bit careful when matching other gear to these cans - anything rather excessive in the treble department can prove tricky lol!  But any minor shortcomings in this area have now been totally obliterated by replacing the HP cable with a DIY one using Neotech UPOCC silver wire...truly amazing IMHO...(the fixed cable in v1 is a mixed blessing, but does mean one can 'go direct' with the new wires - _carefully!!_ - and eliminate at least one set of connectors...which is my new mission in life lol!).

Good idea to spend plenty of time 'acclimatising' to Elise with stock tubes...that tuberolling 'rabbit hole' can wait a wee while - then the addiction can begin!! ....CHEERS!...and ENJOY!...CJ

ps. That DAC sure looks nice...would love to see how the Hugo2 compares!


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Aha, Scutey....looks like I was too late with my warning lol!! ...but then, I wouldn't really want to deny you the undoubted joys of such addiction...ENJOY!!!...
> 
> ps Thanks for your kind words...I'm just hoping the Doc doesn't confirm what looks to me rather too much like a Chicken Pox rash!! ...(_I need my fix!!!_)...


Get well soon h1


----------



## Scutey

firegon said:


> Warm greetings ( and Happy New Year in advance ) to the whole Elise Headfi community!
> 
> I've spent quite some time with the Elise bought from a fellow headfier and decided to write my first ever official post in this topic. Hopefully it won't be removed
> 
> ...


Welcome to head-fi firegon, glad to hear you're enjoying your Elise, it will only get better!.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Glad to hear you are enjoying the Elise. It is something else. I am very curious to demo the Beyer T1.2 and DT1990. I very much enjoy the McIntosh MHP-1000, but wonder if I'm missing the open can.


cty can't comment on T1 but I've been using my 1990's as my main headphone for the last 5 months and it's the best headphone I've heard even though I've owned Senn hd 598, 600, 650, Beyer 770, 880, 990, and T90. Personally I don't find them too bright, of course it all depends on what sort of sound you prefer, to my ears the highs are definitely smoother than all the other beyers I, have owned, but they do have the beyer "house sound", I have found the resolution, imaging, detail, bass and soundstage to be outstanding, they also pair very well with the Elise.


----------



## canthearyou (Dec 30, 2017)

The newest addition to my life. The most perfect thing to ever exist!!!



Now on to audio. Today I traded my Denafrips Ares for a Bifrost MB. So far I like this much better than the Ares. Has more energy on the treble region. Not sibilance just clean, sparkling highs. The mids seem a tad bit more forward, which I like.

The T.S. 6SN7GTB have settled in and are actually pretty nice. Not as airy as the PSVane, but a bit more energetic.

Now to sit back, hold my baby girl and get lost in the music. I'll let momma get some much needed rest.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> The newest addition to my life. The most perfect thing to ever exist!!!
> 
> 
> Now on to audio. Today I traded my Denafrips Ares for a Bifrost MB. So far I like this much better than the Ares. Has more energy on the treble region. Not sibilance just clean, sparkling highs. The mids seem a tad bit more forward, which I like.
> ...


Congratulations cty, what a Christmas pressie, she's lovely!!.

Those TS GTB'S are actually pretty good, I gave mine some airtime over crimbo, a good balance of warmth, energy and detail.

Btw, don't expect to be visiting the Elise so much, your new arrival will see to that!.

All the best.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> The newest addition to my life. The most perfect thing to ever exist!!!
> Congratulations!
> 
> Now on to audio. Today I traded my Denafrips Ares for a Bifrost MB. So far I like this much better than the Ares. Has more energy on the treble region. Not sibilance just clean, sparkling highs. The mids seem a tad bit more forward, which I like.
> ...


----------



## Scutey

Happy New Year All!, let's hope it's a good year for audio! .

mordy those 6N8S have arrived, will give them some burn in and then report back in a few days on how they sound.


----------



## canthearyou (Jan 2, 2018)

Scutey said:


> Happy New Year All!, let's hope it's a good year for audio! .
> 
> mordy those 6N8S have arrived, will give them some burn in and then report back in a few days on how they sound.



Nice! I'm expecting mine any day now. But with my history, Customs will probably hold them indefinitely.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Nice! I'm expecting mine any day now. But with my history, Customs will probably hold them indefinitely.


cty re 6N8S this could be interesting, will we come to the same conclusion?, I know what you mean about customs, the world over they seem to be a law unto themselves, think I mentioned a couple weeks ago I bought some TS 7236, they were stopped at customs and now I'm not getting them!, fortunately I had a full refund.


----------



## canthearyou

I received a Singxer SU-1 today. INSTANT satisfaction! So much detail and clarity through my Gustard X20 Pro.


----------



## canthearyou

I suggest you give Hans Zimmer/Live In Prague a listen. Bass for days!!! These McIntosh will shake your ear hairs.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> I received a Singxer SU-1 today. INSTANT satisfaction! So much detail and clarity through my Gustard X20 Pro.


Nice set up you have there!, are those headphones the Amiron Home?.


canthearyou said:


> I suggest you give Hans Zimmer/Live In Prague a listen. Bass for days!!! These McIntosh will shake your ear hairs.


Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give it a go as I do like the idea of bass for days!.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> Nice set up you have there!, are those headphones the Amiron Home?.
> 
> Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give it a go as I do like the idea of bass for days!.



They are McIntosh MHP-1000 headphones.


----------



## Scutey

Nice!.


----------



## mordy

I am eager to hear your impressions of the '53 Fotons. Visually they are totally unimpressive, with the minutest tube glow and an anonymous almost crude industrial look, but they really sound great IMHO!


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> I am eager to hear your impressions of the '53 Fotons. Visually they are totally unimpressive, with the minutest tube glow and an anonymous almost crude industrial look, but they really sound great IMHO!


You're right, they're not going to win any beauty contest!, although I don't mind as long as they sound beautiful!.
I'm just giving them their first warm up, I'll use a few different power tubes, probably ge 6as7ga, mullard 6080, RCA 6080, and Chatham and Sylvania 6as7g, I'll report back in a few days.


----------



## firegon

Tested HD800S with Elise today.
Fine pair of cans, but it's pretty easy to hear the lack of synergy between my tubes and the HD800S. Too bright, not enough "meat" and the midrange is reaaaaaally intimate. Uncomfortably intimate. 
What's worse, they've also shown some of the faults of T1v2. This whole audio thingy is quite complicated, isn't it? 
That obviously led me to the only reasonable solution - I _need_ new tubbbbbeeeessss. Now it's time to browse the topic in order to find the best possible combination ...


----------



## Scutey

firegon said:


> Tested HD800S with Elise today.
> Fine pair of cans, but it's pretty easy to hear the lack of synergy between my tubes and the HD800S. Too bright, not enough "meat" and the midrange is reaaaaaally intimate. Uncomfortably intimate.
> What's worse, they've also shown some of the faults of T1v2. This whole audio thingy is quite complicated, isn't it?
> That obviously led me to the only reasonable solution - I _need_ new tubbbbbeeeessss. Now it's time to browse the topic in order to find the best possible combination ...


That's the thing about tube amps it can take time to find what's right for you cans/setup, beware though this tube rolling can lead to addiction! lol, it is however enjoyable!.


----------



## Scutey

firegon, what tubes have you used so far?.


----------



## firegon

Oh just the 2017 stock ones. 
Didn't feel the need to change them before ... but I suppose the time has come. 
Been thinking about the ken rad vt-231 / 6sn7gt, looks like people are really enjoying those.


----------



## JazzVinyl

firegon said:


> Oh just the 2017 stock ones.
> Didn't feel the need to change them before ... but I suppose the time has come.
> Been thinking about the ken rad vt-231 / 6sn7gt, looks like people are really enjoying those.



Ken Rad VT231's = Robust Bass!

if you like bass, these are the ones  

.


----------



## firegon

Oh I can survive unmeasurable amounts of bass. As long as the windows are fine, so am I 
Jokes aside, I've heard they are the best when it comes to bass, but I'm more worried about potential downsides - lack of clarity, bland highs or whatever else bad can happen.
Anyway, It's probably all hidden in the topic somewhere, but if you have any suggestions when it comes to high quality tubes feel free to write!


----------



## Scutey

firegon said:


> Oh just the 2017 stock ones.
> Didn't feel the need to change them before ... but I suppose the time has come.
> Been thinking about the ken rad vt-231 / 6sn7gt, looks like people are really enjoying those.


The Ken Rads are very good, another very nice tube and cheaper too is the Sylvania 6sn7 gtb, that has pretty good bass too, but my fave driver so far has to be the EL3N (with adapter), warm, detailed and excellent dynamics, but there are lots of really nice tubes out there, if you read this thread you will find lots of recommendations for great tubes.


----------



## firegon

And that's the issue.
I can find *too many* nice tubes in this topic. It's just so hard to decide. 
Obviously one way is to buy all of them, but first I need to win a lottery.


----------



## Scutey

Lol, I know what you mean!, try and isolate one tube you like the sound of from the comments you've read and then maybe go with that, that's what I did, but don't rush it, take your time and you'll find the right one to try... eventually !


----------



## JazzVinyl

firegon said:


> Oh I can survive unmeasurable amounts of bass. As long as the windows are fine, so am I
> Jokes aside, I've heard they are the best when it comes to bass, but I'm more worried about potential downsides - lack of clarity, bland highs or whatever else bad can happen.
> Anyway, It's probably all hidden in the topic somewhere, but if you have any suggestions when it comes to high quality tubes feel free to write!



The Ken Rads are expensive, but very nice and there are no downsides, just more bass (which I like).

My favorites for Elise as drivers were a setup we called "2031" one FDD20 and one ECC31...

Or a pair of FDD20's (adapters and external 12v heat for the FDD20 is required).

Search this thread for 2031 info:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-696#post-12583650

Cheers!

.


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 4, 2018)

A picture from the '2031' days...

H1 discovered this combination and went on and on about it (in style, as only he can do).  So I tried it and found he was right.  Somehow the two different driver tubes complimented each other perfectly and produced a rich sonic orchestration, in the Elise.

I know it sounds crazy to use different drivers, but all who tried it, really liked it.

One FDD20 (requires adaptor and external 12v heat) and one ECC31 (requires adaptor).

In the picture is the FDD20 in foreground and ECC31 behind.   Powers here are the Mullard 6080's. (I would suggest socket saver spacers on the 6080's as the do run quite warm, the spacers keep heat away from the amp innards).

My amp always suffered from heat build up, some said thiers didn't. We think the transformer in 220v units had to work less hard than 120v units and generated less heat...?

Anyway...have fun!  Elise is a nice sounding amp, 2031 or via the default compliment.

Cheers...!


----------



## attmci (Jan 4, 2018)

I believe 6070 is a typo. You must have sold your amp. 

And eccxx tubes are too expensive for someone haven't tried any alternative/non-stock 6SN7GT tubes.

Keep in mind, later KEN RAD are GEs.



JazzVinyl said:


> A picture from the '2031' days...
> 
> H1 discovered this combination and went on and on about it (in style, as only he can do).  So I tried it and found he was right.  Somehow the two different driver tubes complimented each other perfectly and produced a rich sonic orchestration, in the Elise.
> 
> ...


----------



## firegon

It honestly sounds(and looks) intriguing. I'll definitely put it on my short list.
Obviously it probably won't be the first setup I'll try - simply because I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with tubes. Elise is my first tube amp. And that 2031 setup looks kinda complicated. If I can't buy it as a package, I'd rather wait a bit and get wiser.
Thank you all for the tips and info, it means a lot.


----------



## JazzVinyl

attmci said:


> I believe 6070 is a typo. You must have sold your amp.
> 
> And eccxx tubes are too expensive for someone haven't tried any alternative/non-stock 6SN7GT tubes.
> 
> Keep in mind, later KEN RAD are GEs.



I corrected my 6070 error seconds after posting.  Still have the amp 

And yes my ECC31's were bought a couple of years ago, still relatively expensive, but not crazy expensive, at that time. Have not looked lately.  If they are beyond reach, that is a real shame. As I said, default compliment, very good too.

My Ken Rads are old, was unaware that later ones were GE.


----------



## JazzVinyl

firegon said:


> It honestly sounds(and looks) intriguing. I'll definitely put it on my short list.
> Obviously it probably won't be the first setup I'll try - simply because I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with tubes. Elise is my first tube amp. And that 2031 setup looks kinda complicated. If I can't buy it as a package, I'd rather wait a bit and get wiser.
> Thank you all for the tips and info, it means a lot.



Yes, definitely stay with the default specified tubes - plenty of sonic joy there, too.  And enjoy your amp!!

.


----------



## Scutey

firegon said:


> It honestly sounds(and looks) intriguing. I'll definitely put it on my short list.
> Obviously it probably won't be the first setup I'll try - simply because I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with tubes. Elise is my first tube amp. And that 2031 setup looks kinda complicated. If I can't buy it as a package, I'd rather wait a bit and get wiser.
> Thank you all for the tips and info, it means a lot.


You've got the right idea, best to start with something cheap, mordy recommended an excellent, and cheap tube, the 53 Foton 6N8S (6SN7). Good luck with your tube rolling!


----------



## myphone

JazzVinyl said:


> I corrected my 6070 error seconds after posting.  Still have the amp
> 
> And yes my ECC31's were bought a couple of years ago, still relatively expensive, but not crazy expensive, at that time. Have not looked lately.  If they are beyond reach, that is a real shame. As I said, default compliment, very good too.
> 
> My Ken Rads are old, was unaware that later ones were GE.



The real pre-GE Ken-Rad 6sn7GT/VT231 have staggered plates, either clear or dark glass.


----------



## Scutey

mordy you were right about the 53 Foton, it's a lovely sweet sounding tube, silent, no microphonics,  warmish, smooth highs and detailed mids, bass is punchy and tight a tube I can easily listen to for hours, without ever sound lush, paired well with my Mullard and RCA 6080's but best of all being paired with my Chatham 6AS7G, these seemed to hit a sweet spot with the Foton. Thanks for the recommendation mordy, you were right, it is a "sleeper".


----------



## JazzVinyl

Mordy is really good at discovering the "sleepers"!!

GO Mordy


----------



## Scutey

I won't argue with that!, team mordy!.


----------



## canthearyou

Just received my $3 each tube from eBay. Very first impressions are it sounds like the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB with less mid bass and a bit more width. Not that bad for a few bucks. 

The tubes are Russian 68NS.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Just received my $3 each tube from eBay. Very first impressions are it sounds like the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB with less mid bass and a bit more width. Not that bad for a few bucks.
> 
> The tubes are Russian 68NS.


At that price you can't go wrong, that doesn't sound like the 53 Foton?.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> At that price you can't go wrong, that doesn't sound like the 53 Foton?.



Hopefully those get here soon. They were ordered on same day.


----------



## Scutey

Ok, hope you enjoy those 53's when they arrive!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Ok, hope you enjoy those 53's when they arrive!.[/QUOT
> 
> Hi Scutey and cty,
> 
> Happy to hear you like the tubes. The trick is to find the right synergy with the power tubes, but they sound very good with any tubes.


----------



## Scutey

mordy, first tried them with several different 6080 and 6AS7G last, including RCA (gone noisy), Sylvania, and last Chatham, as you say they sound good with most powers, but they just sounded right with the Chatham.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> mordy you were right about the 53 Foton, it's a lovely sweet sounding tube, silent, no microphonics,  warmish, smooth highs and detailed mids, bass is punchy and tight a tube I can easily listen to for hours, without ever sound lush, paired well with my Mullard and RCA 6080's but best of all being paired with my Chatham 6AS7G, these seemed to hit a sweet spot with the Foton. Thanks for the recommendation mordy, you were right, it is a "sleeper".



What are the power tubes shown?


----------



## Scutey

Those are GE 6AS7GA, 80's, production, they are one of my favourites, got some early 60's as well last week and are better again, fairly relaxed but not too warm, good detail, wide ish  soundstage, still bargains to be had with these.


----------



## JazzVinyl

6N7 and Chatham 6AS7 powers...

Always one of my friends @Suuup's favorite compliments, and it is very dynamic and great sounding.

Have not heard from Suuup in a good while - hope he sees this and hope he is doing well.

HNY Suuup!!


----------



## Suuup (Jan 7, 2018)

JazzVinyl said:


> 6N7 and Chatham 6AS7 powers...
> 
> Always one of my friends @Suuup's favorite compliments, and it is very dynamic and great sounding.
> 
> ...


Still is my favorite combo 
Happy News Years to you as well my friend!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Suuup said:


> Still is my favorite combo
> Happy News Years to you as well my friend!



Excellent, Suuup!!! 

So glad to hear from you!  Hope all is well. 

Cheers!!!


----------



## canthearyou (Jan 8, 2018)

These cheap, ugly, dirty glass tubes are amazing! The cleanest, most detailed sound I've yet to hear. The way they reproduce vocals is incredible. And the instrument separation is on point. Very clear, clean and accurate portrayal of the recording. IMO.


----------



## JazzVinyl

canthearyou said:


> These ugly, dirty glass tubes are amazing! The cleanest, most detailed sound I've yet to hear. The way they reproduce vocals is incredible. And the instrument separation is on point. Very clear, clean and accurate portrayal of the recording. IMO.



You should try cleaning them up


----------



## canthearyou

JazzVinyl said:


> You should try cleaning them up


How can I do that?


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> How can I do that?


I've had a few dirty tubes, I usually either slightly damp some tissue paper, or cotton buds and very gently wipe them, I also clean the pins with deoxit as well.


----------



## canthearyou (Jan 8, 2018)

Received my '54 GE 6AS7G power tubes today. Very noticeable difference in sound compared to stock and the RCA I tried. It was a bad combo with the cheap Russian tubes right from the go. Shrill and soulless. 
I rolled in the stock PSVane drivers and am giving it a listen.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> Received my '54 GE 6AS7G power tubes today. Very noticeable difference in sound compared to stock and the RCA I tried. It was a bad combo with the cheap Russian tubes right from the go. Shrill and soulless.
> I rolled in the stock PSVane drivers and am giving it a listen.





canthearyou said:


> Received my '54 GE 6AS7G power tubes today. Very noticeable difference in sound compared to stock and the RCA I tried. It was a bad combo with the cheap Russian tubes right from the go. Shrill and soulless.
> I rolled in the stock PSVane drivers and am giving it a listen.


I am not 100% sure, but I think that the GE labeled 6AS7G tubes may be RCA tubes.


----------



## canthearyou

They have a slight hum. I can alleviate the issue with a very light tap to the tube.


----------



## JazzVinyl

10 FEB, 1943


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 9, 2018)

After putting Elise away for more than a year and setting her back up, when using the 6AS7G for powers, I do like the inexpensive 6N7G as driver tubes.

They have details space and textures that I am not hearing with as much excitement, via similar priced 6SN7.

If you are new new to Elise, try the 6N7G (the coke bottle shaped variety).  Not expensive, (buy the inexpensive USA made ones) and well worth the cost of a pair of adapters (use the same ones that you would for ECC31 to 6SN7):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pc-Gold-p...C33-ECC32-tube-converter-adapter/201408123468


.


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> After putting Elise away for more than a year and setting her back up, when using the 6AS7G for powers, I do like the inexpensive 6N7G as driver tubes.
> 
> They have details space and textures that I am not hearing with as much excitement, via similar priced 6SN7.
> 
> ...


JazzVinyl you have just reminded me that I have one NOS RCA 6N7G so I think I will get another and the adapters of course and try them out, one question, what is the bass like on these?.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Bass is very tight and solid.  With 6N7G the sound is more 'forward'.  Tiny details and textures are clearly heard.


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> Bass is very tight and solid.  With 6N7G the sound is more 'forward'.  Tiny details and textures are clearly heard.


Thanks JV, think I will have a go with them.

Also I have just been reading of your experiments earlier in the thread with the EL3N as a power, think I will give this a go tonight!.


----------



## Scutey

Late Christmas pressie to myself , looking forward to giving these a go!.


----------



## JazzVinyl

WOW!  You will love these!   They will kick the bass up a BIG notch for ya!!

Cookin' with oil....!!!


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> WOW!  You will love these!   They will kick the bass up a BIG notch for ya!!
> 
> Cookin' with oil....!!!


Only had an hour so far, but they are everything I hoped they would be, and the bass is the best I've heard so far in the Elise, JV these bad boys are cookin' and then some!.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Yes sir...I have 5998's (same as yours) and they ARE the bomb and do wonders for juicing up the bass in Elise!

Congrats, sir, and enjoy!!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Just put my 5998's in with a just arrived pair of JAN 6SN7W...

Umm umm, good!! Bassimus Maximus.


----------



## oshipao

Scutey said:


> Late Christmas pressie to myself , looking forward to giving these a go!.



Hi Scutey,

Long time Elise owner here. May I ask you where you did source these, eBay etc? I am looking for a nice pair myself!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Anchor Clanker...


----------



## mordy

JazzVinyl said:


> Anchor Clanker...


JAN = Joint Army and Navy. We need Gibosi to tell us which years this anchor symbol was used (unless you find the date code somewhere on the tubes).


----------



## JazzVinyl

I will look for a date code tonight, Mordy...


----------



## Scutey (Jan 11, 2018)

oshipao said:


> Hi Scutey,
> 
> Long time Elise owner here. May I ask you where you did source these, eBay etc? I am looking for a nice pair myself!


Hi oshipao,

Mine I think, was a one off eBay auction in the UK, I just got lucky, been waiting for the last couple months for some to appear and I was just very determined to win the auction!.
EDIT, apologies if you have already looked but most 5998/2399 tubes are on the US ebay.


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> Yes sir...I have 5998's (same as yours) and they ARE the bomb and do wonders for juicing up the bass in Elise!
> 
> Congrats, sir, and enjoy!!!





JazzVinyl said:


> Just put my 5998's in with a just arrived pair of JAN 6SN7W...
> 
> Umm umm, good!! Bassimus Maximus.


JV only had the 2399's going for an hour last eve, tonight they get a full workout!, starting with EL3N's, oh and yes, I intend to enjoy em!, good to hear your enjoying your W's. I think today should be called bass Thursday!


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 11, 2018)

mordy said:


> JAN = Joint Army and Navy. We need Gibosi to tell us which years this anchor symbol was used (unless you find the date code somewhere on the tubes).



Hello Mordy...

Did find my Date Codes on my 6SN7W's

They are:
D  5 = April 1945
E  5 = May 1945
F  5 = June 1945

The two that had explosive noises present, I notified the seller who said don't bother returning them and he has already refunded me.

They sound really good after running for 90 mins or so...amazing for 73 year old tubes!!

.


----------



## mordy

JazzVinyl said:


> Hello Mordy...
> 
> Did find my Date Codes on my 6SN7W's
> 
> ...


Older than me, but not by much lol.....


----------



## oshipao

Scutey said:


> Hi oshipao,
> 
> Mine I think, was a one off eBay auction in the UK, I just got lucky, been waiting for the last couple months for some to appear and I was just very determined to win the auction!.
> EDIT, apologies if you have already looked but most 5998/2399 tubes are on the US ebay.



Thank you Scutey,

I guess I have to keep an eye out then


----------



## Scutey

oshipao said:


> Thank you Scutey,
> 
> I guess I have to keep an eye out then


Hi oshipao

I think that is your best bet, if you look once or twice a day, and are patient, I'm sure you will eventually get some, after all I did!. If I see any I will let you know, good luck!.


----------



## attmci

Scutey said:


> Hi oshipao
> 
> I think that is your best bet, if you look once or twice a day, and are patient, I'm sure you will eventually get some, after all I did!. If I see any I will let you know, good luck!.



These are not rare at US. But the cost of shipping to EU kills most of the deals.


----------



## canthearyou

My Foton Ribber 68NS still has yet to arrive. No shipping updates since first one 18 days ago. I contacted seller for info


----------



## Scutey

attmci said:


> These are not rare at US. But the cost of shipping to EU kills most of the deals.


This is the problem, I live in the UK and customs and extra potage costs can make it prohibitive, I won an auction on Sunday on UK eBay, they are arrived two days later and allowing for no customs charges it probably worked out cheaper.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> My Foton Ribber 68NS still has yet to arrive. No shipping updates since first one 18 days ago. I contacted seller for info


Sorry to hear your Fotons haven't arrived yet, is it possible they could be held up at customs?.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> Sorry to hear your Fotons haven't arrived yet, is it possible they could be held up at customs?.



That's possible. But I have no way of telling since there's no update.


----------



## Scutey

Hopefully the seller might be able find out, it could easily be that they are just delayed in the system, if it was the same seller as mine, Ukraine, guy, then it could well be that they are just working there way through, I've had a few tubes from Ukraine sellers but my experience has been that they take longer than from say Russia or China, fingers crossed they'll turn up soon.


----------



## attmci (Jan 12, 2018)

Scutey said:


> This is the problem, I live in the UK and customs and extra potage costs can make it prohibitive, I won an auction on Sunday on UK eBay, they are arrived two days later and allowing for no customs charges it probably worked out cheaper.


Why not just buy some GEC 6as7g, 6080 at UK? Those are very very good power tubes.

I will trade my 5998s with you.


----------



## Scutey

attmci said:


> Why not just buy some GEC 6as7g, 6080 at UK? Those are very very good power tubes.
> 
> I will trade my 5998s with you.


Thanks for the offer but for the time being at least I am happy with what I've got.

As for the GEC 6as7g, I'd love some of those but not at £350 a pair, if they were £50... well I can dream!.


----------



## JazzVinyl

5998 and FDD20 as drivers, one of my favorite combinations, in this amp:


 

Have a nice weekend, all   

.


----------



## canthearyou

Is $200+ USD what I should be looking at to purchase 5998 tubes?


----------



## JazzVinyl

I paid $200 a few years ago.  Don't imagine you can find them for less than that.  They are getting scarce.


----------



## attmci

Scutey said:


> Thanks for the offer but for the time being at least I am happy with what I've got.
> 
> As for the GEC 6as7g, I'd love some of those but not at £350 a pair, if they were £50... well I can dream!.


Try to find some local tube dealer. £350 is way too much.


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 12, 2018)

Good condition GEC 6AS7G are getting very difficult to source.

It will be your lucky day indeed, if you a find a pair for a good price.


----------



## canthearyou

Ok. Thanks!


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 13, 2018)

7N7 also nice in this amp.  I hear it as slightly rolled off at the extreme upper end. And maybe a bit less width to the sound stage than the FDD20.

But they are inexpensive (do require adapters) all are said to be made my Sylvania, regardless of brand seen on the tube, so all sound similar?

They are smooooooth.  Lend themselves well to some music genre's.  Sound very close to the finest 6SN7's at a fraction of the cost. Come in tall and short bottle varieties, Tall bottles shown here.  Good at rendering details.


----------



## Scutey

Been using these 2399's for a few days and they are absolutely wonderful, warm, harmonic and yet dynamic, detailed, spacious, layered, transparent, every driver I've used has sounded better than I ever heard them, it seems to draw out more of a driver and just make them sound better, whether it be Tung Sol gtb, Syl gtb, RCA gt, 53 Foton, even my C3G's, which I've found a bit clinical in the Elise now sound fantastic, but best of all are the EL3N'S, rich and warm, detailed and with great slam, these 2399/5998 really seem to beef up the sound, I paid more for them than I intended but quite frankly when they sound this good I don't regret it!


----------



## JazzVinyl

And you will enjoy them for years to come!  Congrats!

Enjoy, sir!!


----------



## UntilThen

Scutey said:


> Been using these 2399's for a few days and they are absolutely wonderful, warm, harmonic and yet dynamic, detailed, spacious, layered, transparent, every driver I've used has sounded better than I ever heard them, it seems to draw out more of a driver and just make them sound better, whether it be Tung Sol gtb, Syl gtb, RCA gt, 53 Foton, even my C3G's, which I've found a bit clinical in the Elise now sound fantastic, but best of all are the EL3N'S, rich and warm, detailed and with great slam, these 2399/5998 really seem to beef up the sound, I paid more for them than I intended but quite frankly when they sound this good I don't regret it!



EL3N and 5998 made me do this outrageous review.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/6000#post_12235306

Enjoy your music.


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> And you will enjoy them for years to come!  Congrats!
> 
> Enjoy, sir!!


Thanks JV, I intend to!.


UntilThen said:


> EL3N and 5998 made me do this outrageous review.
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/6000#post_12235306
> 
> Enjoy your music.


Thanks for the link to your review UT, an excellent review, you've put it far more eloquently than I can, I can merely agree and echo what you have said, if I had to use one word to describe the 5998/EL3N combo it would be IMMERSIVE.


----------



## UntilThen

Scutey said:


> Thanks for the link to your review UT, an excellent review, you've put it far more eloquently than I can, I can merely agree and echo what you have said, if I had to use one word to describe the 5998/EL3N combo it would be IMMERSIVE.



You're welcome Scutey. That was done at a time when I was younger at heart and when my enthusiam in head-fi was at it's peak. 

Glad you are enjoying Elise.

Cheers
UT


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 14, 2018)

A pair of circa 1943 Sylvania 6SN7W

Might be the best sounding 6SN7 tubes for Elise.  They have distinct and clear bass, retrieve lots of detail and are smooth and good, throughout the audio spectrum.

Not cheap, a good pair will probably run about $100.00 USD, but in my opinion, you would not regret the purchase.


----------



## CoLdAsSauLt

For those seeing themselves outpriced by the recent price shift, I'm selling my Elise. Feel free to make a reasonable offer!

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-feliks-audio-elise.869646/


----------



## canthearyou (Jan 16, 2018)

Received RCA 6080 powers today. Paired with the stock upgrade PSVane drivers is a perfect match! Every single voice and instrument is done so naturally. A holographic soundstage. Great detail yet never analytical IMO. It covers all genres almost perfectly.

I can't see it sounding any better. This might be the end for me. At least for a while. My next purchase will be big $$$ tubes.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Very nice, canthear...I love my Mullard 6080's...they add romance and details to the mids that is lovely.

I do suggest socket savers as spacers with them.  They run quite hot at the base and really heat up the amp.  Use of the spacers keeps the deck and critical components below...cooler.

Enjoy!!


----------



## canthearyou (Jan 17, 2018)

JazzVinyl said:


> Very nice, canthear...I love my Mullard 6080's...they add romance and details to the mids that is lovely.
> 
> I do suggest socket savers as spacers with them.  They run quite hot at the base and really heat up the amp.  Use of the spacers keeps the deck and critical components below...cooler.
> 
> Enjoy!!



I did find some on e Bay but they look cheap. Do you know of any "quality" savers?

Edit: nevermind I found them.


----------



## UntilThen (Jan 19, 2018)

canthearyou said:


> Received RCA 6080 powers today. Paired with the stock upgrade PSVane drivers is a perfect match! Every single voice and instrument is done so naturally. A holographic soundstage. Great detail yet never analytical IMO. It covers all genres almost perfectly.
> 
> I can't see it sounding any better. This might be the end for me. At least for a while. My next purchase will be big $$$ tubes.



For your next purchase, I'd recommend a pair of Tung Sol 6F8G with these adapters and a pair of GEC 6080.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tube-ad...549489?hash=item2397cb77f1:g:a~sAAOSwPhdVKic9


----------



## canthearyou (Jan 19, 2018)

UntilThen said:


> For your next purchase, I'd recommend a pair of Tung Sol 6F8G with these adapters and a pair of GEC 6080.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tube-ad...549489?hash=item2397cb77f1:g:a~sAAOSwPhdVKic9



Awesome! Much appreciated!
How do the tubes sound? I prefer a clean, borderline analytical sound.


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Been using these 2399's for a few days and they are absolutely wonderful, warm, harmonic and yet dynamic, detailed, spacious, layered, transparent, every driver I've used has sounded better than I ever heard them, it seems to draw out more of a driver and just make them sound better, whether it be Tung Sol gtb, Syl gtb, RCA gt, 53 Foton, even my C3G's, which I've found a bit clinical in the Elise now sound fantastic, but best of all are the EL3N'S, rich and warm, detailed and with great slam, these 2399/5998 really seem to beef up the sound, I paid more for them than I intended but quite frankly when they sound this good I don't regret it!



Hi Scutey....glad you're liking the 2399s, and that they bring out more from all your drivers. Glad too that you're enjoying what the EL3Ns are capable of delivering...Glenn, of Glenn amps, was so impressed with this tube that he made one specifically just for it, with a very expensive Lundahl transformer as output! If ever it sounds a tad _too_ warm, then I heartily suggest the sister Telefunken-designed EL11 (needs a different adapter), which I and others have found can sound even better (more balanced) overall...but which shine best of all when driving the top-anode EL12 Spezial lol!! ....ENJOY!!...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

canthearyou said:


> Awesome! Much appreciated!
> How do the tubes sound? I prefer a clean, borderline analytical sound.



Hi chy...@UntilThen's recommendation of the 6F8G sure is a good one...and they _look_ very impressive too lol

@SnapperMusicFan has posted a really nice photo of his own tubes adorning his Euforia...take a look!!    :
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fel...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-276#post-13914838


----------



## UntilThen

canthearyou said:


> Awesome! Much appreciated!
> How do the tubes sound? I prefer a clean, borderline analytical sound.



Not quite clean, borderline analytical sound. That will require a solid state amp. 

However it is clear, detail and dynamic with the right touch of tube warm. I have the same adapters as shown on this guy's blog. http://eardrummer.pl/2016/11/20/recenzja-wzmacniacz-feliks-audio-elise-otl/

It looks as good as it sounds.


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hi chy...@UntilThen's recommendation of the 6F8G sure is a good one...and they _look_ very impressive too lol
> 
> @SnapperMusicFan has posted a really nice photo of his own tubes adorning his Euforia...take a look!!    :
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fel...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-276#post-13914838



I like the "snake charmer twisty" look of his cap wires in the photo...!


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Scutey....glad you're liking the 2399s, and that they bring out more from all your drivers. Glad too that you're enjoying what the EL3Ns are capable of delivering...Glenn, of Glenn amps, was so impressed with this tube that he made one specifically just for it, with a very expensive Lundahl transformer as output! If ever it sounds a tad _too_ warm, then I heartily suggest the sister Telefunken-designed EL11 (needs a different adapter), which I and others have found can sound even better (more balanced) overall...but which shine best of all when driving the top-anode EL12 Spezial lol!! ....ENJOY!!...CJ


Thanks for the recommendation h1, that could well be my next purchase!. I love the 2399/EL3N combo but (just) sometimes it can be a tad too warm, so sounds like the EL11 might be ideal to tone down the warmth a bit, and will defo look into the EL12 spez as well, does this tube rolling never end! lol.


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> I like the "snake charmer twisty" look of his cap wires in the photo...!


It's a sexy look!


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> It's a sexy look!


Yes it is.


----------



## hypnos1 (Jan 21, 2018)

Scutey said:


> Thanks for the recommendation h1, that could well be my next purchase!. I love the 2399/EL3N combo but (just) sometimes it can be a tad too warm, so sounds like the EL11 might be ideal to tone down the warmth a bit, and will defo look into the EL12 spez as well, *does this tube rolling never end! lol.*



Ha Scutey...looks like you're becoming a fully paid-up member of the IRS - not our UK 'Inland Revenue Service', but the equally wallet-crunching 'Insane Rollers Society' lol!! 

If you do indeed eventually try the EL11, although TFK are the best, there do seem to be quite a few unreliable ones about, so be prepared to return any that are dodgy straight away (or, if you're lucky, you may just get refunded without even needing to return). Almost as good - and cheaper - are the East German RFT brand.

As for the EL12 Spezial, again, TFK are now quite expensive...although good deals can sometimes be found if you're an efficient - and patient! - ebayer (often best to go direct to the German ebay, or the Polish sites, where you can often find good deals on strong, used tubes. As usual, you don't really need to go for expensive/overpriced 'matched' pairs...singles that have similar readings are perfectly good enough. And again, the cheaper RFT brand can be much better value!).

The only downside of the Spezials is that most folks experience bad hum due to the top anode and need for special adapters...(as I have no such problems with my own DIY adapted tubes, and in my own setup, I can only surmise it must probably be down to the adapters themselves. But it appears the best way to deal with this problem is to use ferrite chokes on the top anode wire, plus keeping the headphone cable well clear of the amp if possible/necessary). And although not officially endorsed by F-A, I personally have been using the EL11/12 Spez combo pretty well exclusively for nearly a year now, without the slightest hint of trouble...which Lukasz himself intimated that this should mean they are in fact perfectly OK to use. And there's the added benefit that after extensive testing of the entire amp's internal components' operating temperatures, I found that EVERY SINGLE resistor and capacitor runs at about 10 degrees C *cooler*, with one section immediately below the trafo an incredible *20* degrees C cooler!! Which is pretty good news in my book lol!! 

Plus, others also have become fans of this particular combo...so say hello to the bottomless rabbit hole, my friend!! ...CHEERS!!...


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Ha Scutey...looks like you're becoming a fully paid-up member of the IRS - not our UK 'Inland Revenue Service', but the equally wallet-crunching 'Insane Rollers Society' lol!!
> 
> If you do indeed eventually try the EL11, although TFK are the best, there do seem to be quite a few unreliable ones about, so be prepared to return any that are dodgy straight away (or, if you're lucky, you may just get refunded without even needing to return). Almost as good - and cheaper - are the East German RFT brand.
> 
> ...


Lol h1, been walloped with a tube rolling stick!, I am definitely a fully paid up member of IRS, with lifetime membership! .

I'm selling my LD MK3 which will fund my next purchase, so the EL11 will probably be my next purchase, there are several pairs of TFK, RFT and Valvo on eBay at the  mo so I have some choice.

The EL12 Spezial may well be a purchase in the not to distant future, it's interesting you mention that a lot of folks get hum with the EL12, I get a mild hum with my EL3N, not really intrusive just audible in the gap between tracks, however when I use them as powers they are dead silent also get the same thing with my socket savers, have you ever had anything like this?.

Thanks for your input h1, invaluable as always!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Lol h1, been walloped with a tube rolling stick!, I am definitely a fully paid up member of IRS, with lifetime membership! .
> 
> I'm selling my LD MK3 which will fund my next purchase, so the EL11 will probably be my next purchase, there are several pairs of TFK, RFT and Valvo on eBay at the  mo so I have some choice.
> 
> ...


Hi Scutey,
I have several different EL11 and EL12 tubes. There are short and tall EL11 tubes, and some with straight glass, but the ST bulb type are the best sounding. If you are buying EL11, I would recommend the 40's Telefunken as the best. 
The EL12 tubes are very temperamental, with a lot of quality problems and hum issues. Again, the TFK are supposed to be the best, but can be very pricey.  A number of people have reported EL12 DOAs and tubes stopping to work, as well as hum problems. Some very expensive NOS pairs were defective - perhaps they are very susceptible to shipping damage.
I would instead recommend the EL12N which sounds very good and can be found for considerably less money.
All EL12N tubes were made by RFT, regardless of brand name, so just shop by price.
I do not have any experience with the EL12 Spezial.
All the above tubes require special adapters since the base pins are different. IMHO this German octal base is the best base with a positive click in feel - I wish it would have been the world wide standard for octal tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Lol h1, been walloped with a tube rolling stick!, I am definitely a fully paid up member of IRS, with lifetime membership! .
> 
> I'm selling my LD MK3 which will fund my next purchase, so the EL11 will probably be my next purchase, there are several pairs of TFK, RFT and Valvo on eBay at the  mo so I have some choice.
> 
> ...



Hi again Scutey.

I myself never heard any hum from the EL3N, and I don't recall many folks having this problem either...although some environments _can_ be worse than others in this respect, especially using triode-strapped pentodes...hence grid resistors sometimes used to minimise susceptibility (but I personally found that such practices had a negative impact on the sound quality). Tracing the source of RFI/EMI interference can be a nightmare, but sometimes can be down simply to mobile/cordless 'phones; wi-fi routers; powerful electrical equipment etc...or, often, mains interference itself (which is why I advocate good AC Mains conditioning/filtering as almost compulsory before upgrading anything else in one's system!).

As @mordy has also mentioned, the EL11s and 12s can be somewhat hit and miss, so be prepared! The (straight bottle) EL12N is wonderful value-for-money, as well as being much more reliable...BUT, I'm afraid they're no match for the EL12 Spezial!! ...a different league entirely IMHO...so long as you're prepared to work on their possible hum lol!

Socket savers can indeed be a mixed blessing...again, it comes down to luck of the draw as to whether or not they bring with them some unwanted side-effects! With the EL tubes they are totally unnecessary, as these tubes run the amp extremely cool, as previously mentioned, and I myself therefore wouldn't dream of using them!


----------



## Scutey

Hi mordy,


mordy said:


> Hi Scutey,
> I have several different EL11 and EL12 tubes. There are short and tall EL11 tubes, and some with straight glass, but the ST bulb type are the best sounding. If you are buying EL11, I would recommend the 40's Telefunken as the best.
> The EL12 tubes are very temperamental, with a lot of quality problems and hum issues. Again, the TFK are supposed to be the best, but can be very pricey.  A number of people have reported EL12 DOAs and tubes stopping to work, as well as hum problems. Some very expensive NOS pairs were defective - perhaps they are very susceptible to shipping damage.
> I would instead recommend the EL12N which sounds very good and can be found for considerably less money.
> ...





hypnos1 said:


> Hi again Scutey.
> 
> I myself never heard any hum from the EL3N, and I don't recall many folks having this problem either...although some environments _can_ be worse than others in this respect, especially using triode-strapped pentodes...hence grid resistors sometimes used to minimise susceptibility (but I personally found that such practices had a negative impact on the sound quality). Tracing the source of RFI/EMI interference can be a nightmare, but sometimes can be down simply to mobile/cordless 'phones; wi-fi routers; powerful electrical equipment etc...or, often, mains interference itself (which is why I advocate good AC Mains conditioning/filtering as almost compulsory before upgrading anything else in one's system!).
> 
> ...


Hi mordy, h1,

Thank you both for taking the time to reply, it is very much appreciated!. 

Before Christmas, going on what I had read in  this thread, I made a list of the tubes I wanted to try, some of which I now have, also on my "list"! were the EL11 and the EL12N, so depending on what I get for the auction of my LD MK3, those will be my next purchases, managed to find what look like some nice Telefunken EL11 on eBay and some NOS EL12N in the uk.

One thing I have noticed with the EL3N hum it is almost silent when using 6080 tubes, hum is more noticeable when using ST tubes, but as they sound so good it's worth putting up with the hum!.

Once again guys thanks for the input, it really is invaluable!


----------



## Scutey

For those of you who like jazz but may not know of this album, thought I'd share, with RCA 6080 and 53 Foton's this sounds wonderful, a budget price combo with a premium sound!.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Expert saxophony,  Scutey...thx!


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> Expert saxophony,  Scutey...thx!


No probs JV!, that's what I liked about it, the whole album is very good, came across it by accident, so glad I did!.


----------



## Oskari

Scutey said:


> ... and some NOS EL12N in the uk.


Do note that BTB Elektronik in Germany has them for less than €40 a quad (plus p&p obviously); so, don't pay too much.


----------



## Scutey

Oskari said:


> Do note that BTB Elektronik in Germany has them for less than €40 a quad (plus p&p obviously); so, don't pay too much.


Thanks Oskari, that sounds like a good price, will check them out.


----------



## hypnos1

CoLdAsSauLt said:


> For those seeing themselves outpriced by the recent price shift, I'm selling my Elise. Feel free to make a reasonable offer!
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-feliks-audio-elise.869646/



Hi CAS...sorry to hear you're selling your Elise...hope you get a reasonable price for this extremely good, and fairly priced amp. But at least you have a good reason for doing so....getting the DNA Stratus!! 

Mind you, perhaps you should have waited a wee while...F-A's new 2A3 flagship, although still in developmental stage, is already looking like it may just make the Stratus seem as though it belongs in a museum lol! ...assuming it does in fact manage to be a viable option in the marketplace!! ....CHEERS!...and GOOD LUCK!...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> Do note that BTB Elektronik in Germany has them for less than €40 a quad (plus p&p obviously); so, don't pay too much.



Hi O...thought you'd emigrated to Northern Siberia - I know you like the cold lol!! 

But thanks for your - as always! - useful input.......glad you're still around!....CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## canthearyou

hypnos1 said:


> Hi CAS...sorry to hear you're selling your Elise...hope you get a reasonable price for this extremely good, and fairly priced amp. But at least you have a good reason for doing so....getting the DNA Stratus!!
> 
> Mind you, perhaps you should have waited a wee while...F-A's new 2A3 flagship, although still in developmental stage, is already looking like it may just make the Stratus seem as though it belongs in a museum lol! ...assuming it does in fact manage to be a viable option in the marketplace!! ....CHEERS!...and GOOD LUCK!...CJ



What? Any info on the new amp?


----------



## hypnos1

canthearyou said:


> What? Any info on the new amp?



Hi canthearyou.

As of yet there's little (available) detailed info on it alas, apart from it being a much more advanced design, both externally and internally...still using (at present) the 6SN7 as drivers but with the 2A3 as powers, in a fully balanced configuration. And possibly of a modular nature, so as to include power amp function...no further info on this yet.

I only wish I could share the current stage of external design, but it is still provisional and top secret, I'm afraid. However, I can say that it is a very refreshing departure from conventional/traditional designs, and looks very impressive indeed- to my eyes anyway lol! Assuming Pop Henryk can match these externals with his _internals_ and components - and I see no reason why, with his expertise, he can't! - the end result will surely be in summit-fi territory. With a price to match, probably, alas!

But there's a good way to go yet...assuming they do indeed feel it to be a viable proposition! Rest assured I will relay updates as and when F-A are closer to final prototype and willing to make public just how it will most likely look...I for one simply can't wait for that to happen lol!! 

Now it's time for zzzzzzzzzzz, so g'night all...perchance to dream of things to come...(and winning the lottery!).


----------



## canthearyou

Summit-fi, huh? Well, I'm sure it's gonna be nice.


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> perchance to dream of things to come...(and winning the lottery!).


Sounds good h1, we can all dream eh!


----------



## canthearyou

Well, I received my Foton Ribber tubes today after a 30 day wait. First impressions are what has already been said by others. It's a balanced, smooth and laid back sound. Not bad. I still come to enjoy the stock powers over the others.

I have a pair if 68FG? tubes and adaptors on the way. I got some cheap(ish) Marconi tubes to try out. I'm gonna get some TS soon.

I remember saying I wasn't going to roll tubes. Lol


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 24, 2018)

canthearyou said:


> I remember saying I wasn't going to roll tubes. Lol



Down the rabbit hole you go! 

I thought I heard some screaming....realized it was your wallet


----------



## canthearyou




----------



## JazzVinyl

EL3N as powers and C3g as drivers...are a fine tube compliment for Elise.

Always thought the EL3N's made better power tubes than drivers, in this amp.

Liking this, listening to:


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> But thanks for your - as always! - useful input.......glad you're still around!....CHEERS!...CJ


Right back at you!


----------



## hypnos1

canthearyou said:


> Well, I received my Foton Ribber tubes today after a 30 day wait. First impressions are what has already been said by others. It's a balanced, smooth and laid back sound. Not bad. I still come to enjoy the stock powers over the others.
> 
> I have a pair if 68FG? tubes and adaptors on the way. I got some cheap(ish) Marconi tubes to try out. I'm gonna get some TS soon.
> *
> I remember saying I wasn't going to roll tubes. Lo*l



Haha chy....have lost count of the number of folks who've sworn the same thing!! Once here, it's pretty well guaranteed the bug will bite...*hard!!!* 
Will be interesting to hear your impressions of the 6F8G.....but remember ALL tubes probably need a decent burn-in period - even used ones, I've often found lol! 



canthearyou said:


> Summit-fi, huh? Well, I'm sure it's gonna be nice.



"Nice", chy?...sure hope it's gonna be more like...meravillioso!; ausgezeichnet!; incroyable! lol......


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> Right back at you!



Nice to hear from 'old timers'(!! ), especially now our good friend Phil aka pctazhp, who started this thread, is unable to give us his own welcome input.

In fact, I'm sure I'm not betraying any confidences in saying he hasn't been at all well, and that I would ask all who are still here to send their deepest wishes to him, in the hope they may help in his recovery. And for absent friends, I shall send them on their behalf...

Phil, you are much missed...your good friend, CJ...


----------



## hypnos1 (Jan 25, 2018)

Scutey said:


> Sounds good h1, we can all dream eh!



Actually, Scutey, I'm already slavering at the mouth..._almost _as much as my never-to-be-forgotten (moving!) image of an Alsatian dog chomping away at (nay, _*devouring!!*_) a dish of tripe...not a pretty sight lol!!!


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Nice to hear from 'old timers'(!! ), especially now our good friend Phil aka pctazhp, who started this thread, is unable to give us his own welcome input.
> 
> In fact, I'm sure I'm not betraying any confidences in saying he hasn't been at all well, and that I would ask all who are still here to send their deepest wishes to him, in the hope they may help in his recovery. And for absent friends, I shall send them on their behalf...
> 
> Phil, you are much missed...your good friend, CJ...


Sorry to hear that pct is not well - wishing him a complete and speedy recovery!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Get Well, Soon...Phil...!!


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Phil, you are much missed...your good friend, CJ...


Yes, indeed, CJ.


pctazhp said:


> I’m trying this new Elise thread as an experiment to see if there are those interested in a basic Elise thread. Of course, I can’t dictate the rules for this or any thread and would not presume to try. But I am suggesting the following guidelines for those who might be interested in this type of thread:


Phil, this place needs you and your wisdom. Get well soon!


----------



## hypnos1

On behalf of Phil, I thank you all for your kind support...I'm not the only one to have been keeping fingers crossed for a while now.....and so shall they remain lol!.......


----------



## Scutey (Jan 25, 2018)

hypnos1 said:


> Nice to hear from 'old timers'(!! ), especially now our good friend Phil aka pctazhp, who started this thread, is unable to give us his own welcome input.
> 
> In fact, I'm sure I'm not betraying any confidences in saying he hasn't been at all well, and that I would ask all who are still here to send their deepest wishes to him, in the hope they may help in his recovery. And for absent friends, I shall send them on their behalf...
> 
> Phil, you are much missed...your good friend, CJ...


I know I haven't been on here for long, or had the good fortune to converse with pctazhp, so I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here in wanting to give pctazhp my best wishes as well.


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Alsatian dog chomping away at (nay, _*devouring!!*_) a dish of tripe...not a pretty sight lol!!!


mmm lovely with salt and vinegar!.


----------



## UntilThen

Just received news of Phil's condition from Don. Thanks Don, thanks indeed.

Phil, I spend the last 2 hours listening to songs and not hearing. Thinking of the jokes we tell each other. I know I tell terrible hamsters jokes. I have a song for you. I hope you don't mind... my mind's not very good at choosing songs at this time thinking of you.

Wishing you well and speedy recovery.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> Well, I received my Foton Ribber tubes today after a 30 day wait. First impressions are what has already been said by others. It's a balanced, smooth and laid back sound. Not bad. I still come to enjoy the stock powers over the others.
> 
> I have a pair if 68FG? tubes and adaptors on the way. I got some cheap(ish) Marconi tubes to try out. I'm gonna get some TS soon.
> 
> I remember saying I wasn't going to roll tubes. Lol


Hi cty,

Please give the '53 Foton tubes some 30 hours of use and they will sound much better.....


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> Hi cty,
> 
> Please give the '53 Foton tubes some 30 hours of use and they will sound much better.....


They are still in her! I like them! My favorite so far. Thanks for the recommendation!


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi cty,
> 
> Please give the '53 Foton tubes some 30 hours of use and they will sound much better.....


I found there to be a big improvement after just 10 hours, found them to be rather soupy at first, but everything improved very quickly, now they're one of my fave 6sn7's, for me, they pair particularly well with the RCA 6080.


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> I know I haven't been on here for long, or had the good fortune to converse with pctazhp, so I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here in wanting to give pctazhp my best wishes as well.



It's good of you to add your best wishes, Scutey...a real gentleman is Phil, and he'd be most appreciative of your concern also.

What I am finding harder to thank you for however is your support for the most hideous foodstuff I can imagine...ie. cow's stomach lining....yeuch!!!......


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> They are still in her! I like them! My favorite so far. Thanks for the recommendation!


Here is another clarification of the Foton Ribbed Anode 6N8S. 
The years that have the same construction are 1952,1953 and 1954. For some reason the least expensive seller on eBay groups 1954 and 1955 (1955 different internals) together at a lower price than the earlier ones. 
You could ask for 1954 tubes and benefit from the lower price.


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> What I am finding harder to thank you for however is your support for the most hideous foodstuff I can imagine...ie. cow's stomach lining....yeuch!!!......


Lol, we're a bit doolally here in Devon h1, it's the scrumpy, sends you a bit nuts, gives you a liking for weird bovine based products!!.


----------



## JazzVinyl

pctazhp said:


> Photos of our setups are highly encouraged, as are examples of music we enjoy with our Elises.



A photo dedicated to Phil....and to wishing you well:


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Lol, we're a bit doolally here in Devon h1, it's the scrumpy, sends you a bit nuts, gives you a liking for weird bovine based products!!.



Ah, scrumpy....that would explain it lol!!


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> A photo dedicated to Phil....and to wishing you well:


JV you take wonderful tube pics!.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Scutey said:


> JV you take wonderful tube pics!.



Thanks, Scutey...

Really enjoying C3g drivers and EL3N as powers in this amp. 

Not only sounds great but runs very cool - a big advantage for this amp that tends to get quite warm under the deck. 

Cheers...


----------



## Scutey (Jan 27, 2018)

Nowhere near as good your pics JV, but I thought I'd share, been using this combo too the last few days and I have to say I love it!, warm and transparent, great low end from the EL3N, great detail from the C3G, this set up in this pic is a real mongrel, all the tubes were bought separately, and a different times but they just sound so good.

Like you I noticed how cool this set up runs, after two hours the Elise was only slightly warm, I get the feeling it's barely ticking over, which can't be bad!.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Scutey said:


> Like you I noticed how cool this set up runs, after two hours the Elise was only slightly warm, I get the feeling it's barely ticking over, which can't be bad!.



Very nice, Scutey!

Yes, these two are opposites...the EL3N is a deep dark low reaching beast and C3g, a light and airy and oh so careful with details and separation of instruments.

They pair very well together, add the bonus of being very low consumers of heater amperage....it's a win/win.

Congrats!!


----------



## hypnos1 (Jan 28, 2018)

It is with great sadness that I pass on @connieflyer 's message on the 'New Thread' that our good friend and colleague Phil, aka pctazhp has lost his battle with illness and passed away today.

I would have liked to make a more lengthy post here, but as this news has hit me just before retiring to my bed, I don't feel I can say more at the moment than I know he will be greatly missed by all here...sleep shall not come easily tonight...

RIP, dear Phil...
CJ


----------



## connieflyer

Take care h, Phil will be so missed, his wit was second to none.


----------



## canthearyou

Oh man! RIP Phil.


----------



## attmci (Jan 28, 2018)

I am glad he enjoyed the music in the past couple of years. RIP our friend.


----------



## Scutey

Sad news indeed, RIP.


----------



## UntilThen

RIP Phil.


----------



## canthearyou (Jan 29, 2018)

If I wanted the cleanest, most detailed sound available from the Elise, what tube combo would I want? From what I've read it looks like the EL11/12 combo is where it's at. Is this safe/recommended for Elise?

I'm still waiting on the 6F8G to 6SN7 adaptors from China. I'm looking forward to hearing them.

Right now my go to combo are the stock powers and these drivers.


----------



## JazzVinyl

All good choices:

6N7G drivers and 5998 powers
or
C3G drivers and 5998 powers
or 
6SN7W drivers and 5998 powers

I think 6N7G emphasizes mids and upper mids...real sparkle and detail there and you get fat deep bass.  A "front row, center presentation".
C3g treble is cleanly presented lots of mid details too. More like 5th row center in an acoustically perfect hall.
6SN7W great all rounder, lots of detail is retrieved, thick growly bass (more details than any other 6SN7's that I have tried).  10th row center, in a near acoustically perfect hall (that features deep bass notes).

Others will surely completely disagree


----------



## Scutey

cty another really good combo worth considering along with JV's excellent suggestions is 6N7G drivers and Mullard 6080 powers, received some 6N7G last week and paired them with the Mullard and the sound was fast, clean,  clear, forward and detailed mids and dynamic with great slam and attack, soundstage wise sounds forward and intimate, right in front you, found this combo worked really well with rock and metal, only (slight) downside it does run rather warm.


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 29, 2018)

Agree about 6N7G and 6080 - and also about the 6080 assisting in emphasizing liquid smooth, yet prominent and detailed mids...

Mine are NOS Mullard 6080's - made in 1970

6080 and Rather Warm:  Yes!  because the 6080 base heats up like mad!!  Use a socket saver to raise the 6080 off the deck.....


----------



## canthearyou

Thanks again!


----------



## Scutey

Yes, good point, I always use socket savers now, although, in my Elise the 6N7G and Mullard 6080 were still running very warm. But it did sound good!


----------



## hypnos1 (Jan 30, 2018)

canthearyou said:


> If I wanted the cleanest, most detailed sound available from the Elise, what tube combo would I want? From what I've read it looks like the EL11/12 combo is where it's at. Is this safe/recommended for Elise?
> 
> I'm still waiting on the 6F8G to 6SN7 adaptors from China. I'm looking forward to hearing them.
> 
> Right now my go to combo are the stock powers and these drivers.



Hi chy...._*of course*_ I suggest the EL11/12 *Spezial* combo!! ....In my own system, at least, there are no tubes to touch them! ...(my previous best combo was the 12V FDD20 + ECC31 driving brown, curved-base GEC A1834s - $$$$$$$!!!...easily outperformed by the _less_ expensive, but still not 'cheap' EL combo).

I have now proved that the EL tubes are not only _safe_ to use, but run the amp so cool that those socket savers are (fortunately!!) not needed. F-A cannot, however, _officially_ endorse them as they're not strictly configured for, but nevertheless perform superbly!...assuming you aren't unlucky with the occasional unreliable EL11 (which you can usually rely on ebayers for refund, or ebay themselves!), and may need to use small ferrite chokes on the 12 Spezial top anode wire to kill any hum.

But as others have said, there's a good choice of alternatives...remembering, of course, everyone's system/environment/ears are different lol!!....CHEERS!...

ps. This was also recently departed Phil's favourite combo...above his own collection of top flight drivers and powers (including 6SN7W, GEC 6AS7G & 6080s etc.). It's nice to know he was still enjoying these in his Euforia right up to the last weeks of his unfortunate illness...


----------



## JazzVinyl

A lot of tubes sound really really good in the Elise topology.  All FA owners are indeed lucky, that way.  
.


----------



## ostewart

Espressivo MKII review: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/feliks-audio-espressivo-mkii.22896/reviews#review-19780


----------



## mondrax

Hey folks,

This past weekend I  attended the Philadelphia meet I brought with me the Feliks Elise and based on some of your comments and advice, I think I did really good, check out their comments.   I was just able to put Mullards as power and Psvanes as drivers, folks were enchanted with the setup.  The success was mostly in part for all your comments in this forum.

Cheers,

M


----------



## JazzVinyl

mondrax said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> This past weekend I  attended the Philadelphia meet I brought with me the Feliks Elise and based on some of your comments and advice, I think I did really good, check out their comments.   I was just able to put Mullards as power and Psvanes as drivers, folks were enchanted with the setup.  The success was mostly in part for all your comments in this forum.



Yes, looks like a lot of great gear and nice folks:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/philly-area-meet-jan-28th-2018-impressions-thread.870910/


----------



## JazzVinyl (Jan 31, 2018)

After a stressful day at work....tube glow is sooooooo wonderfully relaxing!!

Listening to (at maximum enjoyment):



....C3g drivers...EL3N powers....


----------



## canthearyou

mondrax said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> This past weekend I  attended the Philadelphia meet I brought with me the Feliks Elise and based on some of your comments and advice, I think I did really good, check out their comments.   I was just able to put Mullards as power and Psvanes as drivers, folks were enchanted with the setup.  The success was mostly in part for all your comments in this forum.
> 
> ...



I'm hoping they do the local spring Head-Fi meet near me. I also want to show off the Elise.


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> After a stressful day at work....tube glow is sooooooo wonderfully relaxing!!
> 
> Listening to (at maximum enjoyment):
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. After a long day, can't beat some mellow chill out music and some warm tubes, C3g/EL3N is now one of my fave combos, a near perfect blend.

Apologies if you already know about these, found them recently, just lovely.


----------



## JazzVinyl (Feb 1, 2018)

Hello Scutey...

Yes, love Getz but mostly have him on Vinyl.  Gerry Mulligan, too...
Will stream the "Getz plays Jobim" - perfection!

Also agree about C3g and EL3N...they pair so wonderfully in this amp.  Tried some other drivers last night but not the magic of C3g with these powers.
Ying and Yang, these too.



Ended my evening with this wonderful album:


----------



## canthearyou

Is $240usd too much for a pair of EL3N?


----------



## JazzVinyl

canthearyou said:


> Is $240usd too much for a pair of EL3N?



Yes!!  They are avail brand new from old stock for much less here:

http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/

If you are in the USA, I might be interested in going in on some.  Shipping to USA from overseas is high, not worth it for a single tube, but probably okay for a few.

I think @UntilThen fund this seller some time back, they say they still have them available...


----------



## aqsw

Way TOO much!!!


----------



## UntilThen

That's right. I just spoke to Peter of Acoustics Dimension recently and he has lots of new EL3N with original boxes for 25 euros each. Just email him and he will invoice you. You can find the email on the AD website.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Also, as UntilThen has pointed out in the past...using EL3N's as your powers, reduces the gain of the amp.  So it is probably only suitable for high impedance cans....


----------



## Scutey

I've just received my second lot of EL3N from A.D., they are always helpful and usually  ship the same or next day.


----------



## UntilThen

JazzVinyl said:


> Also, as UntilThen has pointed out in the past...using EL3N's as your powers, reduces the gain of the amp.  So it is probably only suitable for high impedance cans....



That's only true when using c3g and 4 x EL3Ns as power tubes. Using 2 x EL3Ns as drivers and 4 x EL3Ns as power tubes, gain is back to normal. Don't know why there's a drop in gain using c3g and EL3Ns,


----------



## JazzVinyl

UntilThen said:


> That's only true when using c3g and 4 x EL3Ns as power tubes. Using 2 x EL3Ns as drivers and 4 x EL3Ns as power tubes, gain is back to normal. Don't know why there's a drop in gain using c3g and EL3Ns,



Not sure why either.  But the loss of gain with C3g drivers and 1x per side EL3N as powers, is a fact.  

If you have high impedance cans, there is enough power to drive the cans past comfortable volumes and the SQ is superb.  This combination also runs super cool, which is a worthy benefit.


----------



## canthearyou

Ok, cool! I just sent an email to them. 

You guys are using the tubes as powers, correct?


----------



## JazzVinyl

Scutey and I are....with C3g as drivers.

Amp has less gain (have to turn volume up higher) but sounds great..

EL3N's also requre adaptors:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...dapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio/201486463405


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Ok, cool! I just sent an email to them.
> 
> You guys are using the tubes as powers, correct?


JV is spot on, but the great thing about the EL3N is it's versatility, as a driver as well as a power.


----------



## attmci

canthearyou said:


> Ok, cool! I just sent an email to them.
> 
> You guys are using the tubes as powers, correct?


Be careful man, you don't want to send your amp back for repair again.

Just too many people had their FA elise repaired in the past couple of years. Then sold it and move to something else.


----------



## canthearyou

attmci said:


> Be careful man, you don't want to send your amp back for repair again.
> 
> Just too many people had their FA elise repaired in the past couple of years. Then sold it and move to something else.


I definitely don't want that!!


----------



## JazzVinyl (Feb 2, 2018)

This cool running combo will prevent what causes the most damage to this amp (too much heat buildup under the tube deck).

If you want to tear this amp up, run 6080's without socket savers...for hours on end.


----------



## Scutey

Guys, am I right in thinking that the 6c8g can be safely used in the Elise with a 6f8g adapter?.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Yes, you can.  I never ran them because everyone says they sound exactly like the same branded 6SN7's.

Don't worry too much about tube rolling in Elise, it sounds good with a lot of different tubes.
Just remember the heat is your responsibility to deal with.  Don't run tubes that get the deck real hot without mitigating the heat.  Use a small fan,
raise the amp up and let the fan move air underneath.

The transformer in Elise is limited to a 7 amp draw as well.  Never run tubes that in total for all 4 sockets draw more then 7 amps of filament (heater) current, or the transformer will burn up.  Not a problem with tubes listed in FA's compatible tubes chart, but something to think about if/when your tube rolling adventures expand beyond the recommended tubes.

And as previously mentioned - it just so happens C3g and EL3N actually draw *less* current than recommended tubes and run nice and cool in Elise.  These two also require adapters and thus are raised off the deck, which also helps keep the internal temperature down.


----------



## Scutey

Thanks for the advice JV, heat is something I've become aware of, especially when 6080's, so I limit my use of them now to short periods, I now (as you know! lol) like to use the aforementioned C3g/EL3N, mostly for sound but also for it being cool running, along with my 2399's, and 6as7g, as for the 6c8g, curiosity got the better of me, I just had to get some to have a try, they look so damned sexy!, but if they run too hot in my Elise then I shan't be using them again, fortunately they were cheap and no customs charges to pay.


----------



## canthearyou

What headphones are you guys using with your Elise?


----------



## JazzVinyl

I run an old pair of Senn HD580's that has a 99.7% pure silver after-market cable.
Did some mods on them too, but been so many years back that I don't remember exactly what I did, internally.
Have used them so much that I am on the fourth headband cushion and the third set of earpads.  Replaced the outer grills w/HD650 ones, so they look a lot like 650's.   They terminate in 4 pin XLR then a huge adapter out to SE 1/4inch jack.  I don't know if they are "balanced compatible" via the XLR or not.

What about you?


----------



## JazzVinyl

I really want to be able to use my "hot running" tubes in Elise, so am going to try and come up with a wooden base that will
accommodate a fan, so that I can run my 6080's and not feel like I am doing damage to the Elise internals.

Ordered a 120mm super quiet 12v computer case fan today....


----------



## canthearyou

JazzVinyl said:


> I really want to be able to use my "hot running" tubes in Elise, so am going to try and come up with a wooden base that will
> accommodate a fan, so that I can run my 6080's and not feel like I am doing damage to the Elise internals.
> 
> Ordered a 120mm super quiet 12v computer case fan today....



You could try this one. It runs off USB and you can adjust the fan speed. AC Infinity MULTIFAN S3, Quiet 120mm USB Fan for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G05A2MU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_8n8DAbKDYEPRA


----------



## JazzVinyl

Yes, that one looks good!  I ordered one that has some blue LED's on it...add to that evening glow show.
Mine will run off 12v - will power it with the same DIY power supply that I use to externally heat 12v tubes with.

Have a small desk fan on her now...running the Mullard 6080's and 1940's Ken-Rad VT-231's - she is sounding good and stayin' cool...


----------



## OctavianH

JazzVinyl said:


> Scutey and I are....with C3g as drivers.
> 
> Amp has less gain (have to turn volume up higher) but sounds great..
> 
> ...



These adapters work also for Power tubes? They seem to be made for 6SN7 drivers.


----------



## Scutey (Feb 5, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> These adapters work also for Power tubes? They seem to be made for 6SN7 drivers.


Hi OH. Yes those adapters can be used with the EL3N for power and as drivers (6SN7), here is a pic of what they look like as powers.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> What headphones are you guys using with your Elise?


I use my Beyer DT 1990 pro exclusively with the Elise, because of the sparkly high end I find it pairs really well with the Elise, just takes the edge off the high FQ's, had them for 8 months but can't imagine using any other hp now.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> I use my Beyer DT 1990 pro exclusively with the Elise, because of the sparkly high end I find it pairs really well with the Elise, just takes the edge off the high FQ's, had them for 8 months but can't imagine using any other hp now.



That's the HP I'm thinking about getting. Glad you like it.


----------



## firegon (Feb 5, 2018)

Scutey said:


> Hi OH. Yes those adapters can be used with the EL3N for power and as drivers (6SN7), here is a pic of what they look like as powers.


I must say it really looks ... unique 

I'll soon get HD800 back ... and finally, after months of waiting, I'll look for some brand new shiny glass thingies to put on top of my Elise.

Used T1v2 before, tested alongside HD800S and K812 - both didn't work as well as I was hoping.

Also tried DT1990 - sound quality was absolutely fantastic, but I couldn't live without the imaging of T1v2 back then.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> That's the HP I'm thinking about getting. Glad you like it.


At this price point I can't think of another hp that is as comfortable, well made and has great sound, plus with two different pairs of pads, you're effectively getting two hp's for the price of one.


----------



## Scutey

firegon said:


> I must say it really looks ... unique
> 
> I'll soon get HD800 back ... and finally, after months of waiting, I'll look for some brand new shiny glass thingies to put on top of my Elise.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have been using some really nice hp's, love to give the T1's try... maybe one day!. If you're looking for some new tubes may I suggest having a look back over these pages, you'll find some excellent recommendations!.


----------



## firegon

Oh i've been checking the topic and writing down most of the interesting setups ... the notepad document is somewhere on my pc 
I'm sure that I'll run out of money way before I'll run out of ideas.


----------



## Scutey

firegon said:


> Oh i've been checking the topic and writing down most of the interesting setups ... the notepad document is somewhere on my pc
> I'm sure that I'll run out of money way before I'll run out of ideas.


Lol you will!, my wallet has taken a pounding recently!, it goes with the territory!, tube rolling is infectious!, if you haven't already written these down, some worth considering, powers, Tung Sol 5998, Mullard 6080, RCA 6080, drivers, EL3N, EL12N, Foton 6N8S ribber plate, Sylvania 6SN7 GT/B. Hope this helps.


----------



## canthearyou

The T1.2 was another I was looking at.


----------



## Scutey

I would love to have a pair of T1.2 but unfortunately I  can't have everything!, however I can't help thinking that the 1990 with the A pads on you're getting most of the sound of the T1.2 for half the price.


----------



## JazzVinyl

canthearyou said:


> That's the HP I'm thinking about getting. Glad you like it.



Beyer DT 1990 - are closed back?


----------



## Scutey

JazzVinyl said:


> Beyer DT 1990 - are closed back?


I think they are classed as semi open.


----------



## firegon

DT 1770 are closed back, 1990 are open.
Aand on Elise with my stock tubes DT 1990 had a bit better bass than T1v2. At least for my taste. The treble was also "higher quality" but it could get quite tiring after a while. They are definitely a lot brighter. 

To be honest, one thing I didn't like about it, is the single mini xlr connector. Just ... why?


----------



## Scutey

firegon said:


> DT 1770 are closed back, 1990 are open.
> Aand on Elise with my stock tubes DT 1990 had a bit better bass than T1v2. At least for my taste. The treble was also "higher quality" but it could get quite tiring after a while. They are definitely a lot brighter.
> 
> To be honest, one thing I didn't like about it, is the single mini xlr connector. Just ... why?


I used to own the 1770 as well, I found that the 1990 with the B pads had better bass than the 1770, not in quantity but in quality, tighter and better defined.


----------



## JazzVinyl

I had the DT-990's and liked them.  They were sadly STOLEN on that famous auction site!

1> Listed them.
2> Buyer in Hawaii bought them. (was expensive to ship them to Hawaii).
3> FOUR MONTHS later - buyer requests full refund including return shipping! Claiming one side arrived dead (a complete lie).
4> After much negotiating with the mgmt at the famous auction site...I was given NO CHOICE but to issue a full refund *and* a return shipping label at my expense.
5> Week or so later...a *DIFFERENT BROKEN NASTY STINKY* pair of DT-990's come by mail.

I am unable to convince mgmt that the buyer returned a different pair of headphones (they smelled like a dank old Hawaii THRIFT STORE).

So essentially, the buyer *STOLE* my perfect working pair and returned (months later) a stinky broken pair he found in a thrift store (or in someone's TRASH) in Hawaii.

Lesson learned....*DO NOT FAIL* to check the box that says "*returns not accepted*" if you list something that does not have an un-alterable serial number....on that famous auction site..


----------



## mordy

JazzVinyl said:


> I had the DT-990's and liked them.  They were sadly STOLEN on that famous auction site!
> 
> 1> Listed them.
> 2> Buyer in Hawaii bought them. (was expensive to ship them to Hawaii).
> ...


Hi JV,

That's a terrible story! What I don't understand is why they accepted the statement that they arrived broken after four months had passed????
Would it have helped if you had proof of a serial number?


----------



## JazzVinyl (Feb 5, 2018)

Hello Mordy -

The DT-990 has no serial number, no per item identifier of any kind that would prove my pair was not the pair he sent back.  I begged Ebay mgmt to let me send the headphones them, so that could smell the MUSTY smell...they said they did not care, because it could not be *proven* that it was not the pair I sent him, via photographic evidence.

Ebay pointed out that it would have been helpful to me, if I photographed the 'serial number' and also listed it, on the description of the item for sale.

I certainly asked the buyer how it could POSSIBLY BE that he waited 4 months.....and he made up a cock-n-bull story.

I looked a the sellers' items for sale....and he sells...guess what....used clothing that he buys at the local thrift stores!!!  Some stuff he had for sale, still had the Hawaii Goodwill price stickers on them!  Just took him 4 months to find a broken pair of 600 ohm DT-990's that he probably bought for $2.00.


This problem arose from a "new policy protecting buyers" on Ebay.   From now on, always check the "*returns NOT excepted*" box when making a listing, or this very scam could easily happen to you.  If you do decide to accept returns, make sure you state "72 hours to inspect the item" or some such.

I have been on Ebay since 1995, this was the first time I had someone scam me, and succeed.


----------



## Scutey

Sorry to hear you had those problems JV, from now on when I'm selling anything like that I will bear this in mind, this could happen to any of us, forewarned is forearmed, thanks for sharing.


----------



## canthearyou

Thanks for the heads-up! That's awful schitty of them to not help you.


----------



## DavidA (Feb 6, 2018)

JazzVinyl said:


> Hello Mordy -
> 
> The DT-990 has no serial number, no per item identifier of any kind that would prove my pair was not the pair he sent back.  I begged Ebay mgmt to let me send the headphones them, so that could smell the MUSTY smell...they said they did not care, because it could not be *proven* that it was not the pair I sent him, via photographic evidence.
> 
> ...


Hi JV, I have some bad news for you since I asked Beyer about a serial number for my DT-990 premium since I wanted to register them and was told its under the left ear pad, found it there as stated.  This info doesn't help you but for other with Beyer headphones if you can't see the SN contact Beyer and ask.


----------



## Scutey

DavidA said:


> Hi JV, I have some bad news for you since I asked Beyer about a serial number for my DT-990 premium since I wanted to register them and was told its under the left ear pad, found it there as stated.  This info doesn't help you but for other with Beyer headphones if you can't see the SN contact Beyer and ask.


That's a great bit of detective work DavidA, I own several pairs of Beyers, including the DT 990 premium, an important piece of info for all Beyer owners. Thanks!.


----------



## MIKELAP

JazzVinyl said:


> I had the DT-990's and liked them.  They were sadly STOLEN on that famous auction site!
> 
> 1> Listed them.
> 2> Buyer in Hawaii bought them. (was expensive to ship them to Hawaii).
> ...


That's the reason why i dont sell on Ebay and


JazzVinyl said:


> I had the DT-990's and liked them.  They were sadly STOLEN on that famous auction site!
> 
> 1> Listed them.
> 2> Buyer in Hawaii bought them. (was expensive to ship them to Hawaii).
> ...


Ive heard a few stories like that bummer ,that's the reason why i dont accept paypal as payment and i dont sell on Ebay and i especially hate the GLOBAL SCAMMING PROGRAM dont buy anything that ships using this  method they just charge to much and add duty charges when i usually never pay duty, rip off . Also noticed USPS charges went up a couple weeks ago on top of a 30% exchange rate no break at all.Good thing i dont buy many tubes anymore .


----------



## JazzVinyl

DavidA said:


> Hi JV, I have some bad news for you since I asked Beyer about a serial number for my DT-990 premium since I wanted to register them and was told its under the left ear pad, found it there as stated.  This info doesn't help you but for other with Beyer headphones if you can't see the SN contact Beyer and ask.



Very good!   Didn't know it had one!  Will remember for the future!!  Thanks!


----------



## JazzVinyl

MIKELAP said:


> That's the reason why i dont sell on Ebay and
> 
> Ive heard a few stories like that bummer ,that's the reason why i dont accept paypal as payment and i dont sell on Ebay and i especially hate the GLOBAL SCAMMING PROGRAM dont buy anything that ships using this  method they just charge to much and add duty charges when i usually never pay duty, rip off . Also noticed USPS charges went up a couple weeks ago on top of a 30% exchange rate no break at all.Good thing i dont buy many tubes anymore .



Hello Mike..

Yes, on the Ebay forum board there were a bunch of similar stories and complaints.  

Ebay is losing its popularity (compared to it's golden years) and got a reputation as a place to dump your "broken toys" - hence the new buyer friendly policies.   No doubt my scammer knew he would bite me, as I did not state 20 paragraphs of "stipulations", and I had all positive feedback starting from 1995 that he knew was important to me.

Lesson learned!  State a clear return policy (if you will accept the item back) and photograph/state a serial number or make a identifying mark on it, yourself...

To fair to Ebay and the public at large, I have had *many* more positive transactions on there, than negative ones.


----------



## mordy

I have not had negative experiences with eBay and PayPal. I ordered a pair of tubes from Russia. The seller shipped them registered mail in August 2017. The tracking shows that they reached US Customs in August - after that nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nobody to talk to, no answers. 
After five weeks I called PayPal and they promptly refunded my payment.


----------



## angpsi (Feb 6, 2018)

hypnos1 said:


> It is with great sadness that I pass on @connieflyer 's message on the 'New Thread' that our good friend and colleague Phil, aka pctazhp has lost his battle with illness and passed away today.
> 
> I would have liked to make a more lengthy post here, but as this news has hit me just before retiring to my bed, I don't feel I can say more at the moment than I know he will be greatly missed by all here...sleep shall not come easily tonight...
> 
> ...


Oh man, I just dropped in to see how everybody's doing and got the news... I was fortunate enough to benefit from Phil's generosity (helped me get a Cardas Cross cable from the US) and got to know him a tiny bit better than just on the forum. May he rest in peace, he will definitely be remembered...


----------



## angpsi

On a different note @hypnos1, I believe the cat's out of the bag... Strange contraption though, can't imagine what kind of speakers this is going to be driving at 3W.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Interesting.  
This product shot with the large white translucent cover of the studio soft-box flash, gives a rather incorrect impression of the wood.


----------



## canthearyou

angpsi said:


> On a different note @hypnos1, I believe the cat's out of the bag... Strange contraption though, can't imagine what kind of speakers this is going to be driving at 3W.



Ummmmm.... what is that?


----------



## angpsi

canthearyou said:


> Ummmmm.... what is that?


Quoting from the site:


> – Class A tube amplifier in Single Ended setup
> – Output power 3W stereo
> – Frequency response  25Hz – 35KHz +/-3dB
> – THD 0,5 % at 0,5W
> ...


----------



## Scutey (Feb 7, 2018)

angpsi said:


> On a different note @hypnos1, I believe the cat's out of the bag... Strange contraption though, can't imagine what kind of speakers this is going to be driving at 3W.


It's certainly weird, but is it wonderful?.


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Quoting from the site:





Scutey said:


> It's certainly weird, but is it wonderful?.



Hi guys, and @canthearyou ...and everyone!...this is NOT the new flagship amp!  - it will be FAR better/more expensive(!!!) than this lol, and based on a 6sn7/2A3 configuration . The model shown is new to me, but looks very interesting - especially for the money! Both HP _and _speaker amp...hope we get some feedback on it soon......(3W does seem rather low, but the gorgeous Yamamoto A-08S is just 2.5W and still appears to be more than good enough for the job!).

The new flagship amp is still to reach the final design stage...this is what I'm _really_ interested in lol!!! ...(patience is a virtue?...I'm obviously descending into Hades _fast!!!_ )...CHEERS!..CJ


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> (patience is a virtue?...I'm obviously descending into Hades _fast!!!_ )...CHEERS!..CJ


Good things come to those who wait h1!.


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Good things come to those who wait h1!.



I certainly hope so Scutey...had been looking forward to seeing the Feliks family and their workplace - plus the latest stage of the new amp! - in May, but things are looking a bit doubtful at the moment...the Gods haven't been too kind to me just recently, so time will tell lol! ...fingers crossed...CJ


----------



## canthearyou

Right now I want to try different headphones. This fall I plan on upgrading everything else. Depending on the price the new, unknown amp or Euforia and a new DAC in the $2000 range.


----------



## hypnos1

canthearyou said:


> Right now I want to try different headphones. This fall I plan on upgrading everything else. Depending on the price the new, unknown amp or Euforia and a new DAC in the $2000 range.



Hi chy...sounds like a good idea...hopefully by then I'll have had the chance to compare the new flagship alongside my Euforia...but it ain't gonna be cheap methinks!!  Whatever, the best headphones you can manage, along with DAC, sounds sensible to me lol! ....CHEERS!


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> I certainly hope so Scutey...had been looking forward to seeing the Feliks family and their workplace - plus the latest stage of the new amp! - in May, but things are looking a bit doubtful at the moment...the Gods haven't been too kind to me just recently, so time will tell lol! ...fingers crossed...CJ


Sorry to hear that h1, best laid plans and all that, but hope springs eternal!, 
ps, apologies for the quotations but I've been spreading them around like confetti this morning!.


----------



## canthearyou

hypnos1 said:


> I certainly hope so Scutey...had been looking forward to seeing the Feliks family and their workplace - plus the latest stage of the new amp! - in May, but things are looking a bit doubtful at the moment...the Gods haven't been too kind to me just recently, so time will tell lol! ...fingers crossed...CJ



Hope things get better for you!


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks @Scutey and @canthearyou ...have to hope Mother Nature is kind to me, but I think it will be rather a long haul lol!...fingers crossed 

ps. You might (or might _not!_) be interested in the 6moons (no less!!) review of Euforia...link as per @myphone over on the Euforia thread : http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/feliks/1.html
Although a bit like putting one's head in the lion's mouth, Lukasz's gamble wasn't as risky as first thought, and I think Euforia stood her ground pretty well, all things considered lol!! I just hope now this is an 'in' for F-A's new flagship amp, which I'm sure would be more their cup of tea!


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks @Scutey and @canthearyou ...have to hope Mother Nature is kind to me, but I think it will be rather a long haul lol!...fingers crossed
> 
> ps. You might (or might _not!_) be interested in the 6moons (no less!!) review of Euforia...link as per @myphone over on the Euforia thread : http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/feliks/1.html
> Although a bit like putting one's head in the lion's mouth, Lukasz's gamble wasn't as risky as first thought, and I think Euforia stood her ground pretty well, all things considered lol!! I just hope now this is an 'in' for F-A's new flagship amp, which I'm sure would be more their cup of tea!


Thanks for the link @hypnos1 , that's my reading matter sorted for this evening!.


----------



## mordy

Please don't give me flack for trying this - 11.2A of firepower in the Euforia.





Look, I am only using four tubes!
The drivers are Foton 6H8C (6SN7 equivalent) and the power tubes are double 6080WB - the Cetron 5A 6336B with carbon plates, powered by an external 15A/12V PS through a voltage converter.
This combo requires more tweaking - need a more powerful voltage converter and need to find driver tubes with better synergy for the Cetrons.




The Cetrons could be room heaters on a cold winter night....
OK, all in the interest of science - needed to check out the 6336B tubes I just bought, since I don't yet have an amp that is designed to handle them.
Meanwhile, I am a good boy and switched back to 2.5A GEC 6080 tubes......


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Please don't give me flack for trying this - 11.2A of firepower in the Euforia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey mordy i know what you mean regarding heat . recently got myself an amp using a pair of Russian 6C33C tubes man they get hot around 390 F


----------



## myphone (Feb 8, 2018)

mordy said:


> Please don't give me flack for trying this - 11.2A of firepower in the Euforia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mordy, it is funny that i did similar thing over the cold weekend. Used two separate 10 amp filament transformers (one for each 6336b tube).


----------



## mordy

myphone said:


> Mordy, it is funny that i did similar thing over the cold weekend. Used two separate 10 amp filament transformers (one for each 6336b tube).



Looks like the world is ready for a 25A quad amp LOL......
Anyhow, how did it sound? I tried it in the Euforia and the Elise, and my combo sounded better in the Elise, but not as good as other 2.5A combinations. I was afraid to tinker too much since I do not have the right electrical pieces yet.
Even though my voltage regulator is rated 15A, it could not sustain the in-rush current of both tubes, and shut off. So I had to start with one tube; wait a little, and then insert the second tube for it to work.


----------



## mordy

MIKELAP said:


> Hey mordy i know what you mean regarding heat . recently got myself an amp using a pair of Russian 6C33C tubes man they get hot around 390 F


Hi Mikelap,

Read up on your Fluxion amp. Looks like it is made by hand (including winding the transformers) by a South Korean perfectionist engineer living in Canada. 12W integrated.
How does it sound, and how does it compare to your Glenn?


----------



## myphone

Mordy, 6336B is very powerful and has solid control over all three phones I tried ((HD800, HD650 and T1). Mid and treble are less refine, compared to good 6080 and 5099.


----------



## mordy

myphone said:


> Mordy, 6336B is very powerful and has solid control over all three phones I tried ((HD800, HD650 and T1). Mid and treble are less refine, compared to good 6080 and 5099.


Hi mp,
Exactly my impression- bass is excellent but lacking in miss and highs.
However, I think that with judicious pairing of drivers the sound could be improved. Even more so if used in an amp that was designed for it.
Funny, I also have the HD650 and T1. Now I am looking for $20-50 headphones that are equally good!


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi Mikelap,
> 
> Read up on your Fluxion amp. Looks like it is made by hand (including winding the transformers) by a South Korean perfectionist engineer living in Canada. 12W integrated.
> How does it sound, and how does it compare to your Glenn?


Yup made right here ,thats why i got interested in this amp looked to be very well made plus i like those enormous power tubes  .i use it with a pair of very sensitive (98db)Klipsch KG 5.5 so 12 wpc is plenty  sounds very good i get great bass open sounding nice full sound . Will make a nice space heater  in winter and a sauna for the summer great alrounder lol. Unfortunately mordy dont have a Glenn amp .


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 11, 2018)

Later Edit: I have edited my post since it was not quite on topic.

I have taken the final decision and ordered a new 2018 Elise (without stock tubes) since there were not many offers of 2nd hand models anywhere and the people selling the 1st gen were asking almost the same price as they pay for it. Instead of paying almost the original price on the 1st gen I prefer to order a new 2nd gen and have 3 years of warranty and the chance to sell it at a better price at the next upgrade. The future will tell if I was a wise man or a fool. The good part is that I will be able to test it in 2 weeks.


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> Later Edit: I have edited my post since it was not quite on topic.
> 
> I have taken the final decision and ordered a new 2018 Elise (without stock tubes) since there were not many offers of 2nd hand models anywhere and the people selling the 1st gen were asking almost the same price as they pay for it. Instead of paying almost the original price on the 1st gen I prefer to order a new 2nd gen and have 3 years of warranty and the chance to sell it at a better price at the next upgrade. The future will tell if I was a wise man or a fool. The good part is that I will be able to test it in 2 weeks.



Hi OctavianH...sorry for the late reply...not 100% at the moment!

You weren't off-topic at all...very good question you asked, if a difficult one! . I would have said it depends on what you're prepared to pay (and the rest of your gear!)...Euforia is definitely better than Elise, but a good bit more expensive! It does however sound like the 2018 Elise has quite a few improvements over the original model, so I'm sure you have made a good choice...especially as you say you already have some (good?!) 6SN7s. You may need to experiment with powers though...

2 weeks sounds marvellous - lucky fellow! Please do let us know your findings...but remember the amp and tubes will need a fair bit of time to burn-in properly, before Elise will perform near her best! ...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 11, 2018)

For Drivers I already have (right to left):
- C3G (waiting for adapter)
- Jan Philips 6SN7WGTA
- "Foton"? 6H8C (these seem crap to me but we will see)

I made a picture:






For power tubes I plan:
- some russian 6H13C (I guess these are the stock Elise tubes)





- Mullard 6080 (arriving from Langrex).

That's all for the beginning, we will see later. I hope I am on a good track with these.

Regarding the decision between Euforia, Elise and WA6SE:
- I decided for F.A because of the tube rolling options and help of the community (yes, you guys help me a lot)
- F.A are EU manufacturers located closer to my hometown than Woo Audio, so why not encourage local economy or save some money if service will be needed (shipping costs)
- WA6SE tube rolling options are limited
- OTL vs OTC might be a better pair for T1
- I can reuse a part of the tubes I already own, and some of them are good (C3G for example)
- when deciding between Euforia and Elise I thought 600 EUR difference only for better components and Cross Feed (which honestly I have no idea what impact makes) is too much, so let's start with the beginning and Euforia might come at a later point

I have to admit, WA6SE seems a good amp and looks better, but the foot print is also bigger and the tube rolling more problematic. I have no problem if the stock tubes are my "end game" but no one can assure me about that. I prefer to have the option of tuning.
Both companies have excellent support and feedback. So many thanks for both in this regard.


----------



## canthearyou

OctavianH said:


> For Drivers I already have (right to left):
> - C3G (waiting for adapter)
> - Jan Philips 6SN7WGTA
> - "Foton"? 6H8C (these seem crap to me but we will see)
> ...



It would appear that you are ready for some good times with Elise.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Later Edit: I have edited my post since it was not quite on topic.
> 
> I have taken the final decision and ordered a new 2018 Elise (without stock tubes) since there were not many offers of 2nd hand models anywhere and the people selling the 1st gen were asking almost the same price as they pay for it. Instead of paying almost the original price on the 1st gen I prefer to order a new 2nd gen and have 3 years of warranty and the chance to sell it at a better price at the next upgrade. The future will tell if I was a wise man or a fool. The good part is that I will be able to test it in 2 weeks.





OctavianH said:


> For Drivers I already have (right to left):
> - C3G (waiting for adapter)
> - Jan Philips 6SN7WGTA
> - "Foton"? 6H8C (these seem crap to me but we will see)
> ...



Congratulations on your purchase of the Elise, OH, I'm sure you'll love it, it really is a very good amp!.

As h1 has said give it some time for head burn in as well as amp/tube burn in, my first impression of the Elise was good but not great,  but after the first 2 hours I had changed my mind and that was it, I was hooked!.

I see you have a some good tubes for it already, and along with the 6H13C and the mullard 6080 that will keep you busy for some time, I've found the Mullard to be very good with metal, another power tube worth looking at is the EL12N,(with an EL11 TO 6SN7 adapter), it can be used as driver as well as a power, found this to be particularly good with rock/metal.

Hope you enjoy it when it arrives!.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 11, 2018)

Aha, I will keep in mind the EL11N. But as far as I remember you we're recommending also EL3N.
Anyway, the only seller of these adapters is from Hong Kong and it is on holiday until 27.02.
This means my C3G and EL* expericences will have to wait until he returns.
I will place the order for adapters next month, since it does not make sense to block money for an order which will be shipped in 3 weeks.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Aha, I will keep in mind the EL11N. But as far as I remember you we're recommending also EL3N.
> Anyway, the only seller of these adapters is from Hong Kong and it is on holiday until 27.02.
> This means my C3G and EL* expericences will have to wait until he returns.
> I will place the order for adapters next month, since it does not make sense to block money for an order which will be shipped in 3 weeks.


Hi OH, yes the EL3N is a great tube and one of my favourites, it can also be used as a driver and power,and I definitely recommend it, it is however quite a warm tube (which I love), but I was basing my recommendations for you on what I remember you telling you preferred in terms of sound.

Just to clarify, EL tube is a EL12N, but the adapter is an EL11 to 6SN7.


----------



## hypnos1

Well, @OctavianH , other guys have chipped in already...GREAT!...hope you now have more of an idea of what might suit you. But personal trial is the best way to go...based on recommendation, of course lol!  

Our dear departed friend who started this thread - pctazhp - gave a good listing of users' findings on his very first post...both of drivers and powers, which should also  give you plenty to think about! In time, I too recommend you look into the EL tubes, even though not officially endorsed by F-A (as is the C3g), but which I - and others - have been using for a long time now with no problems...and which actually have the amp run much cooler as an added bonus! ...CJ


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 11, 2018)

@Scutey Thanks a lot, EL11N are on my "to do" list. I have to use colder tubes because T1.2 demands it. It is a terrific headphone, my endgame, but different than original T1 (more bass, less harshness) and becomes too warm combined with normal tube sound amps.

@hypnos1 I found also this thread to be valuable:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998.765460/
Nobody replied to it since 2015 but still, the information was very useful to me. Of course, that I try to follow both threads because are invaluable.


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> @Scutey Thanks a lot, EL11N are on my "to do" list. I have to use colder tubes because T1.2 demands it. It is a terrific headphone, my endgame, but different than original T1 (more bass, less harshness) and becomes to warm with normal tube sound.
> 
> @hypnos1 I found also this thread to be valuable:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998.765460/
> Nobody replied to it since 2015 but still, the information was very useful to me. Of course, that I try to follow both threads because are invaluable.



Ah yes OH...that thread too...as well as https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/ ...hope you have plenty of time on your hands!!

ps Re. the T1s...yes, _very_ undervalued cans IMHO...especially v1...all(?!!) you have to do is buy a good, used pair at a silly price and remove(!) the useless old cable and replace with one made up using silver and copper *UP-OCC* wires, and you have a pair of headphones that will match any MUCH more expensive lol! ...believe me...CJ


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 11, 2018)

@Scutey The EL12N you use is this one? https://www.ebay.de/itm/EL12n-EL12-375-RSD-NOS-745/132463958866

@hypnos1 Yes, for me T1 gen2 is the last headphone I will ever buy until gen 3. I never used my HD600, HD650 or Grado since then. I own also T5p (portable version) but I never use it either, and since I changed my job I do not travel so ofter anymore. Maybe HD800s might be a match for it, but I think that one works better for classical music. I still want to try Fostex TH900 but on a quality SS amp and I do not posses one... That one is the only headphone I never tried and it remained in my mind for a long time.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> @Scutey The EL12N you use is this one? https://www.ebay.de/itm/EL12n-EL12-375-RSD-NOS-745/132463958866


Yes that's the one, here is another link to EL12N tubes.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EL12N-RS...331079?hash=item3d52edf347:g:4rcAAOSwzppaL9f5


----------



## OctavianH

OK, I will wait to get the adapters and then order some EL11N tubes. If I order them now I will just look at them without the adapters.

And speaking of the adapters I found here:
http://aornic.com/reviews/2017/9/5/feliks-audio-elise

"*Specifications – From the Manual*

_Elise is built with two 6AS7G (also accepts 6080, via *the included adaptor*) power tubes and two driver 6SN7 tubes._"

What included adapter is this guy speaking about? I thought that 6080s work directly on the Elise without any adapter. I am confused


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> What included adapter is this guy speaking about? I thought that 6080s work directly on the Elise without any adapter. I am confused





hpamdr said:


> You do not need any adapter to use 6080, the adapter was needed at the beg when tube socket are deeper on the chassis and large base of the 6080 do not go inside.
> With new Elise it is plug and play....


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> The EL12N you use is this one? https://www.ebay.de/itm/EL12n-EL12-375-RSD-NOS-745/132463958866





Oskari said:


> Do note that BTB Elektronik in Germany has them for less than €40 a quad (plus p&p obviously); so, don't pay too much.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 11, 2018)

Ah thanks, indeed. The only difference I see is the serial number. 03* in Germany compared to 01* on ebay at Langrex. That's all. Too bad these guys do not sell adapters... all adapters I can find are from HK...


----------



## mordy

Hi Octavian,

I own both the Elise and the Euforia. The Euforia is better, but IMHO the price difference is not justified - it is not a huge difference in sound. The Elise sounds leaner (which some people may even prefer), and the Euforia sounds fuller. However, the newer versions of the Elise sound even closer to the Euforia (as reported by UT).
And in the defense of the Foton tubes: They are not cr-p at all, and quite good. I agree that they don't look very good physically, and they have very little tube glow. The unrefined look is industrial or military (think MIG 19). BTW, they are very strong tubes, and dropping one is not going to smash it (unlike US tubes), which I found out by accident lol. 
The Foton 6H8C from 1952-1955 with a ribbed anode and special supports for improved microphonics is a real sleeper, and an absolutely top performer, right up there with the best 6SN7 tubes. It is my favorite driver.
Until people discover them you could get them for less than $10 each (incl shipping) when buying four.


----------



## myphone

mordy said:


> Please don't give me flack for trying this - 11.2A of firepower in the Euforia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mordy, have you tried using 4 6080/6AS7 as custom-made 6336B setup?

If would be fun to compare various parallel 6080/6AS7 tubes. I may get some adapters from ebay.






Already have two of this for external 10A filament,


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> @Scutey Thanks a lot, EL11N are on my "to do" list. I have to use colder tubes because T1.2 demands it. It is a terrific headphone, my endgame, but different than original T1 (more bass, less harshness) and becomes too warm combined with normal tube sound amps.


OH. Would you mind just clearing something up?, you mentioned about the difference between the T1, and the T1.2, you said "more bass, less harshness", my apologies for asking, I'm probably just being thick!, lol, but which one were you referring to?, my reason for asking is I am interested in getting a T1, or a T1.2, depending on which one has the better bass!.


----------



## mordy

myphone said:


> Mordy, have you tried using 4 6080/6AS7 as custom-made 6336B setup?
> 
> If would be fun to compare various parallel 6080/6AS7 tubes. I may get some adapters from ebay.
> 
> ...


Hi mp,

I have enough 6AS7/6080 tubes for 100A and I have an adapter for up to three/channel, but the truth is that I just checked out the 6336 5A tubes that I just bought to make sure that they work.
The sound wasn't as good as I get with just two 2.5A power tubes, so I don't want to play with the mega amp tubes in my Elise/Euforia amps. Glenn has an amp that can take 4x6AS7 tubes or 2x6336 tubes. 
IMHO you need an amp that is designed for these very high current draw tubes to do them justice in 10A configurations.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 11, 2018)

Scutey said:


> OH. Would you mind just clearing something up?, you mentioned about the difference between the T1, and the T1.2, you said "more bass, less harshness", my apologies for asking, I'm probably just being thick!, lol, but which one were you referring to?, my reason for asking is I am interested in getting a T1, or a T1.2, depending on which one has the better bass!.



T1.2 have more bass over the original T1 and also a detachable cable. Original T1 was neutral with some harshness on the top end which on specific amps was not quite easy to listen. I have listened it in the past on a SS amp, so I cannot tell you for sure how it would sound on a tube amp. There are a lot of mods available for the original T1 (different ear pads, custom cable, even detachable cable jacks) which might alter it's original sound and solve some of the problems. Another difference between them is the headband which on original T1 was real leather compared to artificial leather on 2nd gen. From my experience, during years, the real leather headband was becoming somehow greasy and the artificial leather used on the new version tries to solve this problem. Until now I have not problem with the new headband of the T1.2 compared to my T5p (T1 1st gen low impedance sibling, same real leather headband). There is also a difference for the carrying case, the original T1 and T5p had a full aluminium carrying case and the new one has a cheaper textile one. But I do not really care about it since I do not travel with them.

I would advise you to go for the T1.2 and tune the sound via tubes if it will be too warm for your taste. But of course, wait to see several opinions on this matter. You get:
- detachable cable
- better bass and no harshness on top but warmer
- worse carrying case
- better stock cable (I really like it over some custom models, I heard it was made by Cardas or at least a decent manufacturer)
- better headband

A picture of my T1.2 and T5p on the original T5p premium carrying case:





I hope it helps you decide.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> T1.2 have more bass over the original T1 and also a detachable cable. Original T1 was neutral with some harshness on the top end which on specific amps was not quite easy to listen. I have listened it in the past on a SS amp, so I cannot tell you for sure how it would sound on a tube amp. There are a lot of mods available for the original T1 (different ear pads, custom cable, even detachable cable jacks) which might alter it's original sound and solve some of the problems. Another difference between them is the headband which on original T1 was real leather compared to artificial leather on 2nd gen. From my experience, during years, the real leather headband was becoming somehow greasy and the artificial leather used on the new version tries to solve this problem. Until now I have not problem with the new headband of the T1.2 compared to my T5p (T1 1st gen low impedance sibling, same real leather headband). There is also a difference for the carrying case, the original T1 and T5p had a full aluminium carrying case and the new one has a cheaper textile one. But I do not really care about it since I do not travel with them.
> 
> I would advise you to go for the T1.2 and tune the sound via tubes if it will be too warm for your taste. But of course, wait to see several opinions on this matter. You get:
> - detachable cable
> ...


That's brilliant OH, thanks for your input, it's much appreciated!. I've read a couple reviews on the T1.2 and they echo what you have said, but it's always better coming from someone who has had a long term ownership. I've had a look for the T1.2 and it seems a used example can be picked up for a reasonable price, so I'll give it some thought and then maybe pull the trigger, and yes your input has definitely decided me on the 2nd gen version!. Cheers!.


----------



## firegon

Scutey said:


> I've read a couple reviews on the T1.2 and they echo what you have said



That is a nice wordplay  Probably unintentional, but still ...

 I've tested T1v2 with pretty much everything I could find. Love the headphones, but the echo effect is just frustrating. 
Still, found them more likeable than HD800 or K812. Great cans


----------



## Scutey

firegon said:


> That is a nice wordplay  Probably unintentional, but still ...
> 
> I've tested T1v2 with pretty much everything I could find. Love the headphones, but the echo effect is just frustrating.
> Still, found them more likeable than HD800 or K812. Great cans


Lol yes!, definitely unintentional!, not sure I like the idea of hp's that echo!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Lol yes!, definitely unintentional!, not sure I like the idea of hp's that echo!.


Everybody is different. I have the T1 Gen 1, and while I like them for their detail and clarity, I prefer the HD650 which to me is more warm and sweeter.
From what I read, the HD800 often comes out as a top choice.
In any event, most of my listening is via speakers.....


----------



## JazzVinyl (Feb 12, 2018)

myphone said:


> Mordy, have you tried using 4 6080/6AS7 as custom-made 6336B setup?
> 
> If would be fun to compare various parallel 6080/6AS7 tubes. I may get some adapters from ebay.
> 
> ...




Hello myphone...

I have used dual 6080 and or dual 6AS7's in Elise (be sure to heat them externally, as I am sure you already know to do) and I feel like you get a much more powerful bass note,  by doing so.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 12, 2018)

mordy said:


> Everybody is different. I have the T1 Gen 1, and while I like them for their detail and clarity, I prefer the HD650 which to me is more warm and sweeter.
> From what I read, the HD800 often comes out as a top choice.
> In any event, most of my listening is via speakers.....



T1.2 might be exactly what you will like. For me, HD650 sounded very good on some Depeche Mode for example, so for pop/electro/synth at "mid-tempo" they are good, but when you listen to something faster you realize they cannot follow, and you feel that "sennheiser veil" everyone is talking about. I sold my HD650 and kept my HD600 but since I own the T1.2 all my other headphones are only sleeping in their boxes.
HD800 is a great headphone, but for classical music. And Sennheiser has done something similar like Beyerdynamic with T1.2, they added some bass in the next generation called HD800s.
More than this, I read that they released a new HD660s but I have not tried it either.


----------



## canthearyou (Feb 12, 2018)

Received the adaptors I ordered weeks ago. One was defective upon arrival. I did a quick solder job and got it in working order. I must say so far I really, really like what I am hearing. It's just too bad that they have a constant, audible hum. It sounds like the transformer humming. The amp is on vibra-pods and there is nothing that moves on the desk top.
 

P.S. Don't mind my sexy legs in the pic.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Received the adaptors I ordered weeks ago. One was defective upon arrival. I did a quick solder job and got it in working order. I must say so far I really, really like what I am hearing. It's just too bad that they have a constant, audible hum. It sounds like the transformer humming. The amp is on vibra-pods and there is nothing that moves on the desk top.
> 
> P.S. Don't mind my sexy legs in the pic.


Hi chy. That's a pity about the hum, glad you're liking them though, did you say they are Ken Rads?,I have some Ken Rads on the way, so would be interested to hear what you think. Last week arrived some RCA 6c8g's and they are lovely, typical RCA sound, rich warm, smooth, decent extension in the highs, rich warm mids, and deep warm, slightly slow bass, a great mellow, chill out sort of tube, if the RCA's were a drink they would be drinking chocolate, with double cream on top! .

P.S., had to do  double take, those legs look like mine!


----------



## canthearyou

Here's what I have.


----------



## Scutey

Ahh, I was going to get some of those until I found a seller in France, for an identical price, which meant no customs charges, they do look like very nice tubes!.


----------



## attmci

canthearyou said:


> Here's what I have.


Thses are RCA 6c8g tubes. Try not to twist the coils and make those away from the transformer.

Nice legs.


----------



## canthearyou

attmci said:


> Thses are RCA 6c8g tubes. Try not to twist the coils and make those away from the transformer.
> 
> Nice legs.


I'll untwist them. See if that helps. If it does I'm gonna shorten the lead.


----------



## attmci

canthearyou said:


> I'll untwist them. See if that helps. If it does I'm gonna shorten the lead.


The NIB tubes also need some time to settle. But the noise you heard sounds like transformer hum.


----------



## canthearyou

attmci said:


> The NIB tubes also need some time to settle. But the noise you heard sounds like transformer hum.



Definitely xformer hum. I untwisted the lead and makes no difference. Bummer. Gonna pick up some ferrite rings and give them a try.


----------



## JazzVinyl

canthearyou said:


> Definitely xformer hum. I untwisted the lead and makes no difference. Bummer. Gonna pick up some ferrite rings and give them a try.



They sure are gorgeous tubes!  Hope you can get them quiet...


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 14, 2018)

mordy said:


> And in the defense of the Foton tubes: They are not cr-p at all, and quite good. I agree that they don't look very good physically, and they have very little tube glow. The unrefined look is industrial or military (think MIG 19). BTW, they are very strong tubes, and dropping one is not going to smash it (unlike US tubes), which I found out by accident lol.
> The Foton 6H8C from 1952-1955 with a ribbed anode and special supports for improved microphonics is a real sleeper, and an absolutely top performer, right up there with the best 6SN7 tubes. It is my favorite driver.
> Until people discover them you could get them for less than $10 each (incl shipping) when buying four.



@mordy I am not sure if these tubes I was talking about are Foton or the ones you mention. I had a very unpleasant experience on the MK2 with them but most probabily the amp was not designed for them. I bought them very cheap from a guy designing and amp who decided to replace them with other model. So thinking that this guy replaced them and on my amp sound horrible I labelled them as "crap". Anyhow I will try them again in Elise. I found 2 pictures with them, these are Foton? (some of them are '73 and some '77 because I own 6 pieces)










Regarding Elise, it seems it will arrive here on Friday. So good days coming ahead, gents!
Of course, pictures and impressions will come.


----------



## Scutey (Feb 14, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> @mordy I am not sure if these tubes I was talking about are Foton or the ones you mention. I had a very unpleasant experience on the MK2 with them but most probabily the amp was not designed for them. I bought them very cheap from a guy designing and amp who decided to replace them with other model. So thinking that this guy replaced them and on my amp sound horrible I labelled them as "crap". Anyhow I will try them again in Elise. I found 2 pictures with them, these are Foton? (some of them are '73 and some '77 because I own 6 pieces)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi OH, I think those tubes are Nevz, but I could be wrong!.

The tubes mordy mentioned are the  early 50's Foton ribber anode, I bought some on mordy's recommendation and they are excellent!, they are just as ugly as those but the sound is beautiful!. they really are superb for the money. Here is a link to the seller mordy and I bought from. One thing I forgot to mention, I think he has put the price up. surprise!, and I think, you can only buy four now, but they are still very good value compared to other, NOS tubes. Here are also a couple pics of mine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-of-4...var=431829224558&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

As toy your new Elise, I bet you can't wait!, I'm sure you'll love it, enjoy!.


----------



## JazzVinyl

If anyone in the US has a *single* 50's 'Foton ribber anode' 6H8C they would care to sell, shoot me a PM.


----------



## Oskari

Scutey said:


> Hi OH, I think those tubes are Nevz, but I could be wrong!.


You are not.


----------



## Scutey

Cheers @Oskari!.


----------



## OctavianH

Ok, understood. Those are Nevz 6HC8. Do I have a chance to obtain some decent sound from them?


----------



## Scutey

I have never tried them myself, not sure if I have read about anyone using them either, but there is no harm in trying them, you never know they might even be quite good, and if not you don't have to use them again.


----------



## attmci

canthearyou said:


> Definitely xformer hum. I untwisted the lead and makes no difference. Bummer. Gonna pick up some ferrite rings and give them a try.



wow, that was fast.

U know what I mean.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Hi OH, I think those tubes are Nevz, but I could be wrong!.
> 
> The tubes mordy mentioned are the  early 50's Foton ribber anode, I bought some on mordy's recommendation and they are excellent!, they are just as ugly as those but the sound is beautiful!. they really are superb for the money. Here is a link to the seller mordy and I bought from. One thing I forgot to mention, I think he has put the price up. surprise!, and I think, you can only buy four now, but they are still very good value compared to other, NOS tubes. Here are also a couple pics of mine.
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-of-4-pcs-6N8S-Audio-Triode-Tubes-6SN7GT-ECC32-6CC10-NOS-See-Variations/132481394104?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&var=431829224558&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
> ...


Hi Scutey,

I asked the seller why the price went up and he told me that the postal rates went up Jan1 2018 and it is not economical for him to offer free shipping unless you buy four tubes.
The price of the Foton ribbed anodes from 1952-1953 is higher than the ribbed anodes from 1954-1955, but the seller told me that the 1954 tubes are the same. 
Ordered four, and received one pair from 1954 and one from 1955. However, they look the same and sound the same - go figure.
All in all, since the price includes free shipping, it is still a very good deal.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 15, 2018)

I just realized that my pair of 6H13C "winged" Svetlana are not manufactured in the same month. One is from IV.78 and the other from XI.78.
Let's hope this will not be a problem on Elise, since they are from the same year and look absolutely identical. I have no idea why I see this only now.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> I just realized that my pair of 6H13C "winged" Svetlana are not manufactured in the same month. One is from IV.78 and the other from XI.78.
> Let's hope this will not be a problem on Elise, since they are from the same year and look absolutely identical. I have no idea why I see this only now.


Absolutely nothing to worry about.......


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi Scutey,
> 
> I asked the seller why the price went up and he told me that the postal rates went up Jan1 2018 and it is not economical for him to offer free shipping unless you buy four tubes.
> The price of the Foton ribbed anodes from 1952-1953 is higher than the ribbed anodes from 1954-1955, but the seller told me that the 1954 tubes are the same.
> ...


Thanks for the info mordy. I've just bought some more of the 52-53 year, but next time I will ask for some of the 54-55, even at the price I paid, as you said, it is still good value for such a great sounding tube


----------



## OctavianH

Guys, maybe some of you can update the tube rolling thread with your findings (this one: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998.765460/)
It is very hard to follow 3 topics of hundreds of posts to find out what tubes one needs...


----------



## firegon

A quick question, for now mostly for my own curiousity.

Staggered plate - what does it mean? Where do I look and how do I distinguish a staggered plate tube from a non staggered one?
Direct translation of the word really doesnt help


----------



## JazzVinyl (Feb 16, 2018)

firegon said:


> A quick question, for now mostly for my own curiousity.
> 
> Staggered plate - what does it mean? Where do I look and how do I distinguish a staggered plate tube from a non staggered one?
> Direct translation of the word really doesnt help



It simply means the two plates are offset a little from one another.  Not in the tube perfectly centered.  One is a little forward, the other other a little behind from centered.



This tube is also said to have "Ladder Plates" - you can see why....



.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys. Just thought you might like to glimpse my latest post over at the Euforia thread - info that y'all may find interesting... perhaps! 

CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## myphone

firegon said:


> A quick question, for now mostly for my own curiousity.
> 
> Staggered plate - what does it mean? Where do I look and how do I distinguish a staggered plate tube from a non staggered one?
> Direct translation of the word really doesnt help



Angled top view of staggered plate Ken Rad 6SN7 (VT-231):
 

Top view of "regular" plate RCA 6SN7 (VT-231):


----------



## Scutey

These beauties came in the post today, looking forward to giving these a go and seeing if the Ken Rad lives up to it's legendary status as a bass monster. One more thing and I think it comes out in the pic is that these tubes are over 74 years old and look as good as the day they were made, even the boxes they came in are pristine, it's just incredible to think that when they were packaged, WWII still had 1 year and 10 months to go!.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> These beauties came in the post today, looking forward to giving these a go and seeing if the Ken Rad lives up to it's legendary status as a bass monster. One more thing and I think it comes out in the pic is that these tubes are over 74 years old and look as good as the day they were made, even the boxes they came in are pristine, it's just incredible to think that when they were packaged, WWII still had 1 year and 10 months to go!.


Please report if they have transformer hum. My 6F8G did and I did not like that.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Please report if they have transformer hum. My 6F8G did and I did not like that.


Hi chy,
They started off dead silent, nothing, using Chatham/2399/5998 as powers, after about 2 hours, I noticed a faint hum had developed, not loud, only audible when music was stopped, but definitely there, I then switched off and changed to EL12N as powers and they are now dead silent again, I think it may have something to do with ST bottle powers, I have another pair of 6C8G, RCA, and they hum as well but only with ST bottles, EL12N and 6080's nothing, silent.


----------



## Scutey

What powers are you using with your 6F8G?.


----------



## canthearyou

Scutey said:


> What powers are you using with your 6F8G?.



I tried both RCA 6AS7G and RCA 6080. Both hum but the 7G is louder. Could be the 6F8G.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Hi chy,
> They started off dead silent, nothing, using Chatham/2399/5998 as powers, after about 2 hours, I noticed a faint hum had developed, not loud, only audible when music was stopped, but definitely there, I then switched off and changed to EL12N as powers and they are now dead silent again, I think it may have something to do with ST bottle powers, I have another pair of 6C8G, RCA, and they hum as well but only with ST bottles, EL12N and 6080's nothing, silent.



Some people who had hum with other tubes using an anode cap had luck in eliminating the hum with a ferrite choke clamped on to the anode wire..
These are little cylinders that snap on the anode wire, and can be found very inexpensively for a few cents each.
Just make sure to get them in the right size for the wire thickness. Can't guarantee that it will work, but some people had good luck with these devices.
Here is a link to one seller:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-5x-3-5mm-Noise-Suppressor-EMI-RFI-Clip-Choke-Ferrite-
Core-Cable-Filter-Black/142457972166?epid=942254927&hash=item212b2825c6:g:Q9AAAOSwRQxaetBK


----------



## OctavianH

Are there any sources for adapters in Europe? Those guys from HK will ship my adapters in 2 weeks and the delivery estimation is March-April...


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Some people who had hum with other tubes using an anode cap had luck in eliminating the hum with a ferrite choke clamped on to the anode wire..
> These are little cylinders that snap on the anode wire, and can be found very inexpensively for a few cents each.
> Just make sure to get them in the right size for the wire thickness. Can't guarantee that it will work, but some people had good luck with these devices.
> Here is a link to one seller:
> ...


Thanks mordy, will give them a look


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Are there any sources for adapters in Europe? Those guys from HK will ship my adapters in 2 weeks and the delivery estimation is March-April...


To my knowledge I don't think there are any outside of china, there is an eBay seller in Bulgaria who makes 7n7 to 6sn7 adapters but not for c3g, which I'm assuming is what you mean?.


----------



## OctavianH

Well, I bought 7n7 / c3g / el12n adapters to be sure I have all I need. But I have to wait a lot of time for them. I wonder why F.A. are not making their own adapters instead of letting those guys making money on their products.
If you search for adapters on ebay you find a lot of "special for Elise" models and if you make a sum of shipping costs and all you find that you pay quite a sum. When adapters will arrive I will buy some tubes for them...


----------



## Scutey

I know what you mean OH, it can take quite some time to get from China/HK to Europe, however I think the reason F.A don't is because the Elise was designed around the 6AS7G/6080 and 6SN7 tube and not the EL/C3G/7N7 tube types etc, and so could invalidate the warranty if anything happened to the amp, I think it's only because of guys @pctazhp, @hypnos1, and others discovering that these valves worked safely and I guess the  eBay guys in China were able to tap into that demand for adapters, I could be completely wrong of course,or maybe it's just not worth F.A's while doing it, maybe one the guys could chime in on this.


----------



## OctavianH

I already wrote them regarding a "Premium adapter kit" which might be a small wooden box, branded properly, with 2-3 adapters in it. I mean, if a pair of adapters cost like 30-40USD + shipping costs they might reach a sum of 50 EUR in Europe. I say that these are not cheap, and can be manufactured in Europe by the vendor himself.


----------



## hypnos1 (Feb 19, 2018)

Scutey said:


> I know what you mean OH, it can take quite some time to get from China/HK to Europe, however I think the reason F.A don't is because the Elise was designed around the 6AS7G/6080 and 6SN7 tube and not the EL/C3G/7N7 tube types etc, and so could invalidate the warranty if anything happened to the amp, I think it's only because of guys @pctazhp, @hypnos1, and others discovering that these valves worked safely and I guess the  eBay guys in China were able to tap into that demand for adapters, I could be completely wrong of course,or maybe it's just not worth F.A's while doing it, maybe one the guys could chime in on this.



Hi Scutey (and others who may be interested)...you are right re. F-A not wishing to invalidate their warranty by not using configured-for tubes. Have asked them to make their own adapters, but understandably they've declined, leaving China to make them!...(or better, like myself, to adapt the  tubes oneself!! )...Hope this gives_ some _answer at least...CJ


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Scutey (and others who may be interested)...you are right re. F-A not wishing to invalidate their warranty by not using configured-for tubes. Have asked them to make their own adapters, but understandably they've declined, leaving China to make them!...(or better, like myself, to adapt the  tubes oneself!! )...Hope this gives_ some _answer at least...CJ


It certainly does h1, it would certainly be nice if they did make them in UK/Europe, but I guess if we did they would be more expensive, so I guess we can't have everything!.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 20, 2018)

So today I can be called a proud owner of a Feliks Audio Elise MK2 heapdhone amp! I am one of you, guys, and you convinced me to take this very smart decision.
Since I had not seen a lot of pictures and "unboxing" impressions, at least not of the new 2018 model, I have decided to make some pictures and write a few words, to share them with you.

So, let's begin. First of all: packaging is IMPRESSIVE. I have received the amp and a headphone stand, each in their own box, perfectly isolated.






And the boxes inside:






The stand was perfectly fit in the protection, as can be seen:






And Elise had 2 boxes, one in another:






Inside, everything at his place, but my unit came without tubes, since I already owned a few to use with it and I have decided to save 100 EUR:






What I received was the amp, 3 leaflets (warranty and manual, headphone amp and stand brochure) and a standard power cable (not in the picture since I consider it not relevant, can be seen in previous one):






A closer picture of the "top", everything looks absolutely perfect, no sign or mark on it:






And a detail I have not seen in any review, on the bottom we have a metal plate with Feliks Audio logo and the number of the unit, I was the lucky guy with 0145:






And installed on my desk looks absolutely stunning:






Both the amp and the stand are heavy, solid and the build quality is perfect. I am really impressed and it exceeded my expectations. Feliks Audio were very nice, friendly and sent it after 3 days since the payment was processed (I used bank transfer because I am not very happy with Paypal services anymore).
The transport company was not at the expected level of professionalism, UPS failed to deliver 2 times and I had to call at least 6 times to be able to arrange a proper delivery. But this has nothing to do with Feliks Audio.

And now about the SOUND. I have only some preliminary impressions, since I just started to listen it with 2 x Svetlana "winged" 6H13C '78 and 2 x Nevs 6H8C '73. So all tubes are russian, I bought them very cheap locally, since here in Transylvania you can find russian tubes at people who I am not sure if they are aware of what they are selling, and therefore sell under the price you usually find them on, for example, Ebay. For example the Svetlana "winged" costed me 6.5EUR/piece and I saw them on a german website at 19EUR/piece. I think I have paid a decent price for them. The 6H8C were also very cheap, I bought 6 pieces from a guy who was designing his own amp and was not pleased by their sound, so he wanted to get rid of them and sold me all his pieces at a bargain.
When I first tried them on Little Dot MK2 via adapters they sounded absolutely horrible but now on Elise they are totally different. I had low expectations for this setup, but it sounds quite good. I was expected to find a "bloated" warm sound without detail or resolution and what I receive is a very nice and pleasant sound. I cannot say more at the moment, I have no idea if the tubes are already burned it or I need to wait more for them and the amp for a final statement, but I can say that I really like what I hear. The question would be: Is Elise sounding great with every tube or I had luck with my cheapest models to find a decent sound from the first try? If Elise offers you so much pleasure with every tube you try I will definitely have a long life of tube rolling ahead.






My next step would be to try 2 x Jan Philips 6SN7WGTA, and when my Mullard 6080 will arrive from Langrex, to replace the Svetlanas. At the moment I am quite impressed about the current setup and I have decided to keep my russians for a few days. I do not want to make more statements at these early moments, but I can say for sure that this unit is in a different league from the Little Dots and it is definitely the best headphone amp I have ever listened to. And it pairs very well with my T1.2 and the 2Qute which was one of my major concerns.


----------



## canthearyou

Welcome! Lots of fun and discoveries ahead for you and Elise.


----------



## Scutey

Brilliant!, welcome to the club OH, you're going to have a fantastic time with the Elise, enjoy your journey, great pics btw!.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> So today I can be called a proud owner of a Feliks Audio Elise MK2 heapdhone amp! I am one of you, guys, and you convinced me to take this very smart decision.
> Since I had not seen a lot of pictures and "unboxing" impressions, at least not of the new 2018 model, I have decided to make some pictures and write a few words, to share them with you.
> 
> So, let's begin. First of all: packaging is IMPRESSIVE. I have received the amp and a headphone stand, each in their own box, perfectly isolated.
> ...





OctavianH said:


> So today I can be called a proud owner of a Feliks Audio Elise MK2 heapdhone amp! I am one of you, guys, and you convinced me to take this very smart decision.
> Since I had not seen a lot of pictures and "unboxing" impressions, at least not of the new 2018 model, I have decided to make some pictures and write a few words, to share them with you.
> 
> So, let's begin. First of all: packaging is IMPRESSIVE. I have received the amp and a headphone stand, each in their own box, perfectly isolated.
> ...


Hi OH,
Welcome to the club! The entire burn in experience is very pleasurable, but it takes upwards of 150 hours for the amp to sound it’s best.
Most tubes, if new, take 30-50 hours to burn in.
The most important thing is to make sure that the amp is well ventilated for cooling. It relies on convection (the slots on the bottom and top).
Enjoy!


----------



## canthearyou

Since I always seem to come back to the stock PSVane 6SN7 tubes I decided to try the upgraded CV181-T Mk2. 

I'd like to try to find a clean pair of TS-5998 for powers, but that's proven impossible.


----------



## JazzVinyl (Feb 20, 2018)

I see a pair on that auction site for $255.00 seems about right for what I paid a couple of years ago.

Do mean for a better price than that?


----------



## canthearyou

JazzVinyl said:


> I see a pair on that auction site for $255.00 seems about right for what I paid a couple of years ago.
> 
> Do mean for a better price than that?



I have those ones on my watch list. But they don't seem to be a physical match. That is important to me. There was a perfect match, but I wasn't gonna pay $600 for them. Lol


----------



## OctavianH

mordy said:


> Hi OH,
> Welcome to the club! The entire burn in experience is very pleasurable, but it takes upwards of 150 hours for the amp to sound it’s best.
> Most tubes, if new, take 30-50 hours to burn in.
> The most important thing is to make sure that the amp is well ventilated for cooling. It relies on convection (the slots on the bottom and top).
> Enjoy!



I observed that it gets quite hot, especially on the transformer area of the case. 
I hope I placed it properly, it has a lot of space, only on the left side that wall is at 7cm or something. 
And in the room I have 22C-23C constantly. Let's hope this will not affect the amp in any way.

Regarding the volume knob, are you always lowering the volume to 0 when starting it? I know some advise that on power on you always keep volume =0 and raise it afterwards.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I observed that it gets quite hot, especially on the transformer area of the case.
> I hope I placed it properly, it has a lot of space, only on the left side that wall is at 7cm or something.
> And in the room I have 22C-23C constantly. Let's hope this will not affect the amp in any way.
> 
> Regarding the volume knob, are you always lowering the volume to 0 when starting it? I know some advise that on power on you always keep volume =0 and raise it afterwards.


That's what I always do, until I'm ready to start using it, I also leave my hp's  unplugged as well, I think I mentioned the EL12N earlier, if they are used as powers the Elise runs cooler, also the EL3N but they have a rather dark/ warm sound signature.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Since I always seem to come back to the stock PSVane 6SN7 tubes I decided to try the upgraded CV181-T Mk2.
> 
> I'd like to try to find a clean pair of TS-5998 for powers, but that's proven impossible.


I'm thinking of getting a pair myself so I'd be interested to hear what you think of them, I currently have some shuguang treasures which is a very nice tube, just on the relaxed side of neutral and very transparent, I gather the two are similar but with the psvane being more neutral, great lookers too!.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 21, 2018)

EL12N are in plan, but since my adapters will be delivered somewhere between 12.03-11.04 I will wait and order them only when I will have, al least, a shipping confirmation. The seller is on holiday until 27.02.
I think there is not so much information about power tubes. I searched on this website for "6080" and found:

*6080 (=6AS7W, ECC230)
straight glas doubletriode*
https://www.btb-elektronik.de/artikel/522252

*6080Telefunken Doubletriode
https://www.btb-elektronik.de/artikel/522253*

Has anyone tried them?

What power use are you using?

Because these Sveltana I tried are somehow "fuzzy" in the bass area, I would like to have more precision and detail and here I guess power tubes are playing an important role.

I searched also for some 7N7 but I could not find anything in Europe, only in the US...


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> EL12N are in plan, but since my adapters will be delivered somewhere between 12.03-11.04 I will wait and order them only when I will have, al least, a shipping confirmation. The seller is on holiday until 27.02.
> I think there is not so much information about power tubes. I searched on this website for "6080" and found:
> 
> *6080 (=6AS7W, ECC230)
> ...


Can't comment on those particular tubes as I've never used them, I roll all my tube quite a lot, 6as7g, nice quite transparent, decent bass (cleaner), RCA 6080, warmer, more relaxed, a bit more detailed, Mullard 6080, you should like these OH, more dynamic, detailed, bass isn't thunderous but is good and hits quite hard, I found them good with metal, GE 6as7ga, nice tube relaxed, sweet sounding, fairly transparent, EL3N warm, darkish, detailed punchy warm bass,  actually the last couple days I've rediscovered the Svetlana, goes quite well with my Ken Rad 6c8g, but you're right the bass is a bit loose, but that could be (partly) at least down to be not properly burned in yet. I think I would give the Mullards a try first, as I think they might be just what you're looking for.


----------



## OctavianH

I already ordered some Mullard 6080 and I wait them to be delivered during this week. My decision was based on this review which offered some tube suggestions:
http://aornic.com/reviews/2017/9/5/feliks-audio-elise


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> EL12N are in plan, but since my adapters will be delivered somewhere between 12.03-11.04 I will wait and order them only when I will have, al least, a shipping confirmation. The seller is on holiday until 27.02.
> I think there is not so much information about power tubes. I searched on this website for "6080" and found:
> 
> *6080 (=6AS7W, ECC230)
> ...





OctavianH said:


> I already ordered some Mullard 6080 and I wait them to be delivered during this week. My decision was based on this review which offered some tube suggestions:
> http://aornic.com/reviews/2017/9/5/feliks-audio-elise


Hi O,
The main thing with ventilation is to leave space above the amp for hot air to rise. The Elise relies on convection (holes underneath and on top of the chassis). Personally I have my amp on an equipment rack with a shelf above it. Mounted an old PC 4" inch fan above the amp so that air is drawn away from under the amp, through the amp, and up, away from it. Turning it on cools it quite a lot.
Re the 6080 tubes, I have never seen any enthusiastic reviews about the Telefunken (many time the TFK are re-branded as well).
If you want cheap thrills the RCA 6080 sound very nice and are very cheap. Same can be said of the RCA 6AS7G, but they cost a little more.
IMHO the best 6080 are the GEC, but they have become very expensive. Not to speak of the GEC 6AS7, which command astronomical prices...

The power tubes contribute maybe 50% of the sound in the Elise, but it is also very important to find the right synergy with driver tubes.
Presently my favorites are Foton 1952-1955 6H8C tubes with ribbed anodes that I use with the GEC 6080. With this combination I have literally stopped tube rolling - totally satisfying sound.


----------



## OctavianH

I changed the drivers from those Nevz 6HC8 to Philips 6SN7WGTA and the bass became more "precise" and also the overall sound colder. What to say, I like both drivers I own and there are so many I have not tried.







I guess Elise keeps you busy for many years because I discover something new daily. What I have to do is to have patience, the amp is new and also the tubes might be NOS and not burned in. So I have to wait and see what will happen in the next days.

I saw astronomical prices on those Psvane CV181 T2 which are sold with Euforia, but I doubt it makes sense to buy them at 2xx EUR / par.


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> 6080Telefunken Doubletriode
> https://www.btb-elektronik.de/artikel/522253





mordy said:


> I have never seen any enthusiastic reviews about the Telefunken (many time the TFK are re-branded as well).


Yep. Telefunken made 6080s but that is a rebranded GE tube (which can be found cheaper elsewhere). It's possible that nobody's tried real Tfks in the Elise.


----------



## canthearyou

OctavianH said:


> I changed the drivers from those Nevz 6HC8 to Philips 6SN7WGTA and the bass became more "precise" and also the overall sound colder. What to say, I like both drivers I own and there are so many I have not tried.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, the CV-181 mk2 are a $250usd upgrade from Feliks Audio.


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> I searched also for some 7N7 but I could not find anything in Europe, only in the US...


That's how it is. Some types are more common in US, some types in EU. Some types never made it across the pond.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 22, 2018)

I start to like more and more these Nevz 6H8C and even if they are somehow noisier, the voices and guitar sounds very good on them. Everything seems alive compared to those Philips 6SN7WGTA which were colder, more precise but somehow dead. I had problems with mids and highs even if the bass was perfectly clean and fast.
I am curious about how they will evolve, alongside the amp when the burn in will be finished. Too bad we do not have a "clock" on each of them to know when they are cooked enough. I start to think more and more about what @mordy said about those Fotons and I wonder how are they sounding compared to these Nevz. After all both are 6H8C made in Russia.
I guess the best short description for the Philips ones would be "dull", even if it is very hard for me to describe what I hear...


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> I start to like more and more these Nevz 6H8C and even if they are somehow noisier, the voices and guitar sounds very good on them. Everything seems alive compared to those Philips 6SN7WGTA which were colder, more precise but somehow dead. I had problems with mids and highs even if the bass was perfectly clean and fast.
> I am curious about how they will evolve, alongside the amp when the burn in will be finished. Too bad we do not have a "clock" on each of them to know when they are cooked enough. I start to think more and more about what @mordy said about those Fotons and I wonder how are they sounding compared to these Nevz. After all both are 6H8C made in Russia.
> I guess the best short description for the Philips ones would be "dull", even if it is very hard for me to describe what I hear...


Ask Scutey what he thinks of the 1952-55 ribbed anode Fotons 6H8C......


----------



## canthearyou

The Fotons ended up sounding very "shouty". While somewhat smooth and laid back, it seemed to bring the vocals too far forward. IMO YMMV


----------



## Scutey

I've found the overall tone to be more toward neutral, fast clean, clear, dynamic, quite spacious, tight detailed bass, changes quite a bit depending on what powers you use, that's with the EL12N, with EL3N, somewhat warmer, keeps the dynamics, detail/clarity, adds transparency, bass is much deeper, and hits harder, both those combos I've found are good with rock, metal, with Tung Sol  5998 much warmer, still transparent, detailed but more relaxed, bass still deep but somewhat looser, still very nice though, imo, there are better sounding 6sn7's but the 52/55 Foton is hard to beat for it's combination of great sound and bargain price. Just my opinion of course!


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> I've found the overall tone to be more toward neutral, fast clean, clear, dynamic, quite spacious, tight detailed bass, changes quite a bit depending on what powers you use, that's with the EL12N, with EL3N, somewhat warmer, keeps the dynamics, detail/clarity, adds transparency, bass is much deeper, and hits harder, both those combos I've found are good with rock, metal, with Tung Sol  5998 much warmer, still transparent, detailed but more relaxed, bass still deep but somewhat looser, still very nice though, imo, there are better sounding 6sn7's but the 52/55 Foton is hard to beat for it's combination of great sound and bargain price. Just my opinion of course!


Based on the above, it looks like the Fotons need the right synergy with the power tubes to be their best.
As always, YMMV depending on your taste and your equipment. It just so happened that I got them at the same time as my GEC 6080s, and tried them together. For me it is such a nice combination that I stayed with them - no desire to roll other tubes ATM.....


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> The Fotons ended up sounding very "shouty". While somewhat smooth and laid back, it seemed to bring the vocals too far forward. IMO YMMV


Hi canthearyou,
Can you tell me which power tubes you used - I may be able to listen to your combination on my system.
Also, are we talking about Fotons in general, or specifically about the 1952-1955 ribbed anodes that sound different (and better) than the other Fotons?


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Based on the above, it looks like the Fotons need the right synergy with the power tubes to be their best.
> As always, YMMV depending on your taste and your equipment. It just so happened that I got them at the same time as my GEC 6080s, and tried them together. For me it is such a nice combination that I stayed with them - no desire to roll other tubes ATM.....


After trying them with two different powers and then three, that was the impression I got, as they do take and change quite a bit during burn in I'm ignoring the first few hours, Ive tried them with four different powers in all, all with different sound on a sliding scale, EL12N being the coolest and closest to ss, through EL3N, RCA 6080, and finally 2399/5998 being the warmest, of the four powers I've tried with the Foton, my particular favourite is the EL3N.

As for the GEC 6080 love to try some one day, a couple weeks ago I had the chance on UK eBay to buy a lightly used pair for less than the price one NOS, unfortunately me being me I hesitated and they were gone!, moral of this story "he who hesitates is lost"


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> After trying them with two different powers and then three, that was the impression I got, as they do take and change quite a bit during burn in I'm ignoring the first few hours, Ive tried them with four different powers in all, all with different sound on a sliding scale, EL12N being the coolest and closest to ss, through EL3N, RCA 6080, and finally 2399/5998 being the warmest, of the four powers I've tried with the Foton, my particular favourite is the EL3N.
> 
> As for the GEC 6080 love to try some one day, a couple weeks ago I had the chance on UK eBay to buy a lightly used pair for less than the price one NOS, unfortunately me being me I hesitated and they were gone!, moral of this story "he who hesitates is lost"



I have been watching for the GEC 6080 a long time, including rebranded ones, and I learned how to identify them. Lucked out when a Russian seller had three unlabeled tubes but with the proper codes and tube designations on them, and paid comparatively very little for them.
If you want good deals, they are there, but it takes a lot of patience and time...
For me, it is part of the tube mystique.


----------



## Scutey

Totally agree mordy, if you know what to look for, are patient and look frequently, have a watch list then they do come, that was how I got my Chatham 2399's, and it's all the more rewarding when your patience pays off.


----------



## OctavianH

Where I can buy those 52-55 ones on ebay? I know there was a link somewhere, but if I search I find only from '6x:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/6N8S-6CC10-...353868?hash=item56931d3b0c:g:7SIAAOSweW5VWfd0


----------



## Scutey (Feb 23, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> Where I can buy those 52-55 ones on ebay? I know there was a link somewhere, but if I search I find only from '6x:
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/6N8S-6CC10-...353868?hash=item56931d3b0c:g:7SIAAOSweW5VWfd0


Here is the link to the tubes mordy and I have been talking about, Foton 52/55 Ribber anode, just select from the drop down menu.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-of-4-pcs-6N8S-Audio-Triode-Tubes-6SN7GT-ECC32-6CC10-NOS-See-Variations/132481394104?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&var=431829224557&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> Hi canthearyou,
> Can you tell me which power tubes you used - I may be able to listen to your combination on my system.
> Also, are we talking about Fotons in general, or specifically about the 1952-1955 ribbed anodes that sound different (and better) than the other Fotons?



It was the 52-55 ribbed anodes. At the time it was with stock powers and probably over 30 hours of burn-in.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> It was the 52-55 ribbed anodes. At the time it was with stock powers and probably over 30 hours of burn-in.


Hi canthearyou,

Dusted off my Svetlana 6H13C tubes and put them in. Yep. I can hear you loud and clear - there is a harsh edge to vocals; the sweetness is gone with an edgy treble; the sound appears hollow. Not a good synergy with the Fotons.




I have been spoiled with the GEC 6080s - they are going back in.
BTW, there is no coincidence that the Svetlanas look like RCAs. In 1937 Svetlana acquired a licence and manufacturing equipment from RCA. The tell tale saucer getters first appeared in American tubes.


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> Hi canthearyou,
> 
> Dusted off my Svetlana 6H13C tubes and put them in. Yep. I can hear you loud and clear - there is a harsh edge to vocals; the sweetness is gone with an edgy treble; the sound appears hollow. Not a good synergy with the Fotons.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you heard the same.


----------



## canthearyou (Feb 24, 2018)

When you find the combo that works for your set-up and ears it's a great thing. I can go back and listen to all my favorites for the first time, again.

For the last 2 weeks I've been using RCA 6AS7G bottom "D" getters and stock PSVANE 6SN7 tubes. Clean, not overly smooth, yet no harsh edges, and the holographic presentation is superb!

I can't wait for my CV181-T mk2 get here. They'll have to be damn good to beat this combo right now.

Also have another set of RCA 6AS7G with top getters to try out. Not set on RCA, but they are rather inexpensive to try out.


----------



## Scutey (Feb 24, 2018)

I use a pair of Shuguang Treasures which have a very similar sound, very musical.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the T-mk2 as I'm very interested in getting some, I've found a seller who sells them at a not too silly a price and no customs charges to pay so I'm poised!.


----------



## OctavianH

I've seen that there is a price difference between Psvane CV181T (1st gen) and CV181T/MK2. As far as I know these are the stock drivers of the new Euforia.

Does anyone know what are the stock power tubes of Euforia 2018? In some pictures I see the 6H13C but I guess those were used for the first generation.


----------



## Scutey (Feb 24, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> I've seen that there is a price difference between Psvane CV181T (1st gen) and CV181T/MK2. As far as I know these are the stock drivers of the new Euforia.
> 
> Does anyone know what are the stock power tubes of Euforia 2018? In some pictures I see the 6H13C but I guess those were used for the first generation.


As far as I know it's still the 6H13C.


----------



## canthearyou

OctavianH said:


> I've seen that there is a price difference between Psvane CV181T (1st gen) and CV181T/MK2. As far as I know these are the stock drivers of the new Euforia.
> 
> Does anyone know what are the stock power tubes of Euforia 2018? In some pictures I see the 6H13C but I guess those were used for the first generation.



As stated on website: CV-181T mk2 are a €200 EUR upgrade over base(no tubes). And the powers are 6N13S.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> As stated on website: CV-181T mk2 are a €200 EUR upgrade over base(no tubes). And the powers are 6N13S.



I think the 6N13S and 6H13C are the same- just a question in translating the Cyrillic alphabet.
And just a reminder that tube amp manufacturers are much more restricted in which tubes to use. They have to use either available production tubes (Psvane etc), or tubes that are out of production that exist in large quantities (Svetlana 6AS7 type etc). 
As an amp owner, needing only a couple of tubes, your choices are much wider, and usually turn out better than OEM.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 25, 2018)

I've read the website but I thought they changed something in the 2018 model. I feel those are a little bit fuzzy in the bass area and all reviews about the new Euforia are claiming it is the most neutral tube amp they ever tested.
Most probably these Svetlana pair well with the CV181T and this makes me think I have to buy and try them.

Later edit: I have to mention also a bad thing about Elise. Today I had the unpleasant experience to find out that left channel was dead. I was hearing sound only in the right channel. I changed rapidly the source to check the headphones and all was fine. I was able to solve it only by unplugging Elise from the power supply then reconnecting everything. Did anyone observed such a behavior on his amp until now?


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I've read the website but I thought they changed something in the 2018 model. I feel those are a little bit fuzzy in the bass area and all reviews about the new Euforia are claiming it is the most neutral tube amp they ever tested.
> Most probably these Svetlana pair well with the CV181T and this makes me think I have to buy and try them.
> 
> Later edit: I have to mention also a bad thing about Elise. Today I had the unpleasant experience to find out that left channel was dead. I was hearing sound only in the right channel. I changed rapidly the source to check the headphones and all was fine. I was able to solve it only by unplugging Elise from the power supply then reconnecting everything. Did anyone observed such a behavior on his amp until now?


Sorry to hear you're having problems OH, personally I've never had any trouble with my Elise, up to today it has run flawlessly.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 25, 2018)

I would not say it is a problem but let's hope it will not repeat again. After all I have 3 years warranty for it. 

What I have done was:
1. reduced volume to 0 while the amp was off
2. pressed the on/off switch
3. left the room for 10 minutes
4. when coming back raised the volume and only the right channel was hearing

Then I moved my headphones to my audio-gd NFB11.32 SS headphone amp/DAC and checked to see if the problem persists. On that one both channels were perfectly audible.

I removed the power cable, left it for 1-2 min and re-plugged everything. Now works fine.

I do not think I am doing something wrong.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I would not say it is a problem but let's hope it will not repeat again. After all I have 3 years warranty for it.
> 
> What I have done was:
> 1. reduced volume to 0 while the amp was off
> ...


No I don't think you're doing anything wrong, hopefully it's just a one off, also it maybe to do with it being new and bedding in, however it might be worth contacting F.A. about it, just to let them know, they might be able to advise you.


----------



## OctavianH

I will continue to observe it and if it repeats I will mail them. In the meantime I can try to lower volume when powering off and then raise it when turned on again. Maybe this helps/prevents unusual stuff.


----------



## canthearyou

OctavianH said:


> I will continue to observe it and if it repeats I will mail them. In the meantime I can try to lower volume when powering off and then raise it when turned on again. Maybe this helps/prevents unusual stuff.



Maybe it has to do with the mute function on start-up?


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I will continue to observe it and if it repeats I will mail them. In the meantime I can try to lower volume when powering off and then raise it when turned on again. Maybe this helps/prevents unusual stuff.


That's what I do.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> I've read the website but I thought they changed something in the 2018 model. I feel those are a little bit fuzzy in the bass area and all reviews about the new Euforia are claiming it is the most neutral tube amp they ever tested.
> Most probably these Svetlana pair well with the CV181T and this makes me think I have to buy and try them.
> 
> Later edit: I have to mention also a bad thing about Elise. Today I had the unpleasant experience to find out that left channel was dead. I was hearing sound only in the right channel. I changed rapidly the source to check the headphones and all was fine. I was able to solve it only by unplugging Elise from the power supply then reconnecting everything. Did anyone observed such a behavior on his amp until now?


Hi O,

One channel going dead could be just an external poor connection somewhere. Let's hope that it is gone.
The other day the screen went blank on my new PC. First I thought that something shorted out inside the PC, but finally, after unplugging the HDMI cable from the monitor and the PC, and plugging it back in, everything is normal. Never mind that I never had a problem with this monitor for five years (using it with my old PC) and for seven months with the new PC. Possible some connection oxidized or got loose - don't know. Things happen.....


----------



## canthearyou

My favorite power tubes occasionally develops a hum/ringing that is remedied by lightly tapping the glass. Has anybody tried the Herbies Audio Lab tube dampers? Or should I first attempt to use o-ring? 

Any source for new production powers? What about Sovtek? 

PS. I bought a pair of NOS 6AS7G powers from Tubedepot.com and one was faulty on arrival. It pops and snaps constantly. I emailed for refund.


----------



## Oskari

canthearyou said:


> Any source for new production powers? What about Sovtek?


There's no known current production. The Sovteks were Svetlanas.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> My favorite power tubes occasionally develops a hum/ringing that is remedied by lightly tapping the glass. Has anybody tried the Herbies Audio Lab tube dampers? Or should I first attempt to use o-ring?
> 
> Any source for new production powers? What about Sovtek?
> 
> PS. I bought a pair of NOS 6AS7G powers from Tubedepot.com and one was faulty on arrival. It pops and snaps constantly. I emailed for refund.


I have the same problem with my 6as7g, out of 4 pairs only one is silent,(Chatham) the rest ping/ting, I 'm wondering if this is inherent in the 6as7g.


----------



## mordy

I have many different 6AS7 tubes and no real problems with tinging/pinging.
After using the tubes for a while these things tend to disappear .


----------



## Scutey (Feb 26, 2018)

The tinging/pinging I get is usually unpredictable, sometimes it's worse than others, I'll have to give them another go, I usually do what chy does, give them a gentle tap, which temporarily stop it. Another thing is my hp of choice is the 1990 which I find is very sensitive and picks up every tiny sound from the tubes.


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> I have many different 6AS7 tubes and no real problems with tinging/pinging.
> After using the tubes for a while these things tend to disappear .





Scutey said:


> The tinging/pinging I get is usually unpredictable, sometimes it's worse than others, I'll have to give them another go, I usually do what chy does, give them a gentle tap, which temporarily stop it. Another thing is my hp of choice is the 1990 which I find is very sensitive and picks up every tiny sound from the tubes.



Sometimes it goes unnoticed, other times it's quite bothersome. It's a major bummer to be relaxed listening to music and have to get up and tap a tube. I'm not sure how much longer I need to give to alleviate the issue. For the past two weeks I've used it a few hours a day and the noise comes and goes. I'm gonna try to do 6 hours on and 1 or two off for the next few days.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Sometimes it goes unnoticed, other times it's quite bothersome. It's a major bummer to be relaxed listening to music and have to get up and tap a tube. I'm not sure how much longer I need to give to alleviate the issue. For the past two weeks I've used it a few hours a day and the noise comes and goes. I'm gonna try to do 6 hours on and 1 or two off for the next few days.


I agree chy, it is a major bummer!, I'm not always aware of it at first, and then you notice that low level pinging, but once you've noticed it, you can't unnoticed it!.


----------



## canthearyou (Feb 26, 2018)

Scutey said:


> I agree chy, it is a major bummer!, I'm not always aware of it at first, and then you notice that low level pinging, but once you've noticed it, you can't unnoticed it!.



It truly is discouraging that I have a few hundred dollars of tubes at hand but I have the stock tubes in. The only power tubes of the 4 pairs I bought that don't exhibit noise are the 6080. But I do not like their sound.

EDIT: I have a pair of RCA that work fine. Even though the tubes are a different size and internals different. But they don't sound as clear as the other, noisy RCA tubes.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> It truly is discouraging that I have a few hundred dollars of tubes at hand but I have the stock tubes in. The only power tubes of the 4 pairs I bought that don't exhibit noise are the 6080. But I do not like their sound.
> 
> EDIT: I have a pair of RCA that work fine. Even though the tubes are a different size and internals different. But they don't sound as clear as the other, noisy RCA tubes.



Have you tried cleaning the pins? The most efficient way IMHO is to take a little pen knife or similar (does not have to be sharp, but small enough to fit in between the pins and around them), and gently scrape the pins clean.


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> Have you tried cleaning the pins? The most efficient way IMHO is to take a little pen knife or similar (does not have to be sharp, but small enough to fit in between the pins and around them), and gently scrape the pins clean.



I have. I have ultra fine emery cloth. I'll gently polish the pins then spray clean with DeOxit. That definitely helps with the occasional crackling/popping of a good tube. It does nothing for a ringing tube IME


----------



## ostewart

New budget amp from Feliks

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-echo-new-budget-otl-amp.873390/


----------



## mordy

ostewart said:


> New budget amp from Feliks
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-echo-new-budget-otl-amp.873390/


Espressivo on a diet?


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Espressivo on a diet?


Perhaps it should be called Skinny Latte!.

The price point is similar to the Little Dot MK4.


----------



## ostewart

mordy said:


> Espressivo on a diet?



Looks it 

Nice to see them making something at a lower price point (similar in price to the original Espressivo)


----------



## OctavianH

I would be curious to see some impressions about it, compared to a Littledot MK3 or MK4 which seem to be the targeted competition. It is interesting also to see what tubes they ship as stock for it.


----------



## OctavianH

A small preview of my latest aquisitions:







More impressions will come, at the moment I am in the office.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> A small preview of my latest aquisitions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice!, will be interested to hear what you think of both but especially the Psvanes, I may well order some this week. Would you mind if I ask where you bought the Psvanes from?.


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 5, 2018)

I will try to listen to them on Tuesday, because this evening I will not be at home.

I bought them from here:
https://www.btb-elektronik.de/artikel/523347

I observed also small scratches inside on the grey coating. These are very small, most probably created during production.
Can someone tell me if these are present on other pairs as well? Are these a problem?


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I will try to listen to them on Tuesday, because this evening I will not be at home.
> 
> I bought them from here:
> https://www.btb-elektronik.de/artikel/523347
> ...


Thanks OH, that's the site I was thinking of purchasing from, as for the scratches, I don't think that should make any difference, as you say that would have happened in the production process.


----------



## OctavianH

@Scutey Small advice if you decide to order from them. You are not allowed to register an account without a valid address inside Germany but you can order via the e-mail address from the bottom side of the website. They shipped very fast, with DHL. I ordered them on Wednesday and received them today. So 3 working days.


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> I observed also small scratches inside on the grey coating. These are very small, most probably created during production.
> Can someone tell me if these are present on other pairs as well? Are these a problem?


That happens with coated NOS tubes as well. Probably nothing to worry about.


OctavianH said:


> Small advice if you decide to order from them. You are not allowed to register an account without a valid address inside Germany but you can order via the e-mail address from the bottom side of the website.


I managed to register with a Finnish address about a year ago. (?)


----------



## OctavianH

Ok, then it seems my country has a special treatment. It does not matter, they answer fast on e-mail and everything was in order and I was pleased also to have "direct contact".


----------



## canthearyou (Mar 5, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> A small preview of my latest aquisitions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice! I'm expecting my CV181T-2 to arrive today or tomorrow. Also have NOS Sylvania 5998 arriving today.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> @Scutey Small advice if you decide to order from them. You are not allowed to register an account without a valid address inside Germany but you can order via the e-mail address from the bottom side of the website. They shipped very fast, with DHL. I ordered them on Wednesday and received them today. So 3 working days.





OctavianH said:


> Ok, then it seems my country has a special treatment. It does not matter, they answer fast on e-mail and everything was in order and I was pleased also to have "direct contact".


Thanks for letting me know anyway OH, it's still worth bearing in mind when I do buy them.


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Nice! I'm expecting my CV181T-2 to arrive today or tomorrow. Also have NOS Sylvania 5998 arriving today.


That's another I've though of buying, the only thing that put me off was whether it was the same as the GE 6as7ga.


----------



## OctavianH

I have to see what I can do with the power tubes when trying these CV181T because I cannot use EL12N since my adapters have not arrived yet.
I ordered 3 weeks ago from Langrex some Mullard 6080 which have not arrived either. My only pair I can use are these "stock" Svetlana 6H13C.
I hope these will not be a "drawback" for my testing.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I have to see what I can do with the power tubes when trying these CV181T because I cannot use EL12N since my adapters have not arrived yet.
> I ordered 3 weeks ago from Langrex some Mullard 6080 which have not arrived either. My only pair I can use are these "stock" Svetlana 6H13C.
> I hope these will not be a "drawback" for my testing.


Well choice of power tubes is subjective, I would have they would be decent choice at least for the burn in period which is supposed to be about 150 hours. As for Langrex I have bought from them a few times although we are based in the same country however 3 weeks seems a long time, I have always found them easy to deal with so it might be worth sending then an email.


----------



## OctavianH

I wrote them and they told me to wait because they shipped with Royal Mail 1st Class and no tracking number is available.
We had a really awful weather here recently, so I expected some delays. However, 3 weeks is quite much.
I will ask for a refund, because on ebay you have a button like "I have not received the item". I do not like to do this but I have no other choice.
I really wanted to try those Mullards because everyone is describing them very close to my taste.

The burn in for CV181T first generation was something like 150-300 hours, at least this was mentioned here:
http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-t-6sn7-pair/

So I need a lot of ... Patience.


----------



## connieflyer

I have purchased twice from Langrex and both times, they took about two weeks, shipping to the US.  Good people to deal with and the GEC 6AS7's and GEC 6080's were as advertised. NOS no problems at all.  I only used the 6080's for about three weeks, as I got the itch to have the GEC 6AS7's.  Should have not done that, as the difference was very slight between the two tube types.


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 5, 2018)

Now a few words and pictures.

Guys, these things are beautiful!

You receive in the box some testing reports, but I have no idea if these are really carefully tested or these are only for marketing purposes:






Then, the packaging is premium:






The coating looks somehow "muddy" to me but anyway:






And on Elise they add some orange to the "all black setup". I cannot say I like it, I would prefer them to be totally black but this is not so important:






And now some preliminary impressions about the sound: Guys, these are detailed and somehow neutral. And they seem decently paired with my Svetlanas. I guess now I use "Euforia" stock tubes on my Elise. 

So I can say: fast, neutral, very detailed and heavy. Yes, they are my heaviest pair to date.

But more will come when I will understand them. Now I just gave some first impressions.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Now a few words and pictures.
> 
> Guys, these things are beautiful!
> 
> ...


Nice pics OH!, glad you're enjoying them. You're preliminary impressions are similar to a couple reviews I've read about them. I know looks can be subjective but they are just about the best looking tubes I've seen!.


----------



## OctavianH

I need some time to have a proper opinion. At the moment I just said what I heard after 1 hour of usage. They are somehow cold, but very detailed and fast. What I realize is that I miss those "mids forward" of the Voskhods combined with this amount of detail. I guess that would be my endgame.
This was the reason I always preferred Voskhods over C3g, they had those mids forward which were making a riff on a guitar sound alive. We will see in the next days how these will evolve and if I will keep them on the amp or not.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I need some time to have a proper opinion. At the moment I just said what I heard after 1 hour of usage. They are somehow cold, but very detailed and fast. What I realize is that I miss those "mids forward" of the Voskhods combined with this amount of detail. I guess that would be my endgame.
> This was the reason I always preferred Voskhods over C3g, they had those mids forward which were making a riff on a guitar sound alive. We will see in the next days how these will evolve and if I will keep them on the amp or not.


Hopefully with a few tens of hours burn in they might evolve and fill out in the mids.


----------



## canthearyou (Mar 5, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> I need some time to have a proper opinion. At the moment I just said what I heard after 1 hour of usage. They are somehow cold, but very detailed and fast. What I realize is that I miss those "mids forward" of the Voskhods combined with this amount of detail. I guess that would be my endgame.
> This was the reason I always preferred Voskhods over C3g, they had those mids forward which were making a riff on a guitar sound alive. We will see in the next days how these will evolve and if I will keep them on the amp or not.



I have a feeling the recessed mids are caused from the power tubes.

It looks like both pairs of tubes I ordered will be here tomorrow. I guess I'll have to live vicariously though OH.


----------



## mordy (Mar 5, 2018)

Hi O,

There is definitively a lot of marketing hype going on...So many different versions and colors and packages... Always reminds me of a story one of my sons told me. He had a summer job in a factory that produced vodka. The vodka was packaged in eight different bottles, some with fancy wrappings, and sold at eight different price points. But it was all the same vodka......

Re the color of the bases, some people would paint them with a heat resistant paint or shrink wrap them with the desired color.

Personally, I don't care much how the tubes look or how they glow - what matters to me is the sound. The way I listen, the amp is on my side or behind me, and I don't even see it.....


----------



## OctavianH

canthearyou said:


> I have a feeling the recessed mids are caused from the power tubes.



I cannot say they are recessed but they are colder than I was expecting. 6H8C were better in this area but they were slower and less detailed.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I cannot say they are recessed but they are colder than I was expecting. 6H8C were better in this area but they were slower and less detailed.


They might warm up a bit with burn in.

I've also decided to take the plunge and ordered a pair of Psvanes from Btb's eBay site, it's by far the most I've ever spent on a pair of tubes, so that's me finished tube rolling for awhile now!... hopefully!.


----------



## OctavianH

I wait for your impressions. In the meantime I was thinking to try these CV181T2 with EL12N as power tubes. This is my only possible combination, but only when the adapters will come.

What do you think about this combination? I am afraid it will make them colder.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I wait for your impressions. In the meantime I was thinking to try these CV181T2 with EL12N as power tubes. This is my only possible combination, but only when the adapters will come.
> 
> What do you think about this combination? I am afraid it will make them colder.


I like the El12N as a power tube, I  usually use mine with warmer drivers, so it is possible it could be colder, however my experience has been that it is not always possible to predict how certain tubes will pair, but when I  do get the Psvanes I will try this pairing and let you know.


----------



## Scutey

My Psavanes are on the way, hopefully they might arrive by Saturday and then I can begin the long burn in!.


----------



## OctavianH

This review tells me I am far away of their final sound:
https://www.hifiwigwam.com/psvane-t-series-mk-ii-300b-and-6sn7-tubes-reviews/



> Initial listening impressions were very misleading. AA Acoustics had warned me that the Psvanes need a burn-in period of some 300 hours. Frankly, I had been sceptical; my experience with the TJ Mesh plates led me to expect a steady improvement with sonic stability reached after around 70-100 hours. But AA Acoustics is correct. The Psvanes do not behave this way. At first they sounded half decent – smooth but with limited extension top and bottom and little air. I listened for a while and then switched the amps off to work or go to bed – I can’t remember which – but I do remember sitting down for the second listening session and thinking with a heavy heart: “Uh. This has been a big mistake. They sound shockingly bad.”
> 
> Over the course of several more sessions the Psvanes began to improve, but it wasn’t a linear progression towards the broad sunlit uplands of sonic perfection: more a series of jumps forward often followed by one or two backwards – all in a maddeningly unpredictable way. Sometimes the top end began to sound more pleasingly extended and open. The next time the bass was firmer, but the top-end gains seemed to have been lost. The progress towards the 300-hour mark was so sloth-like that I took to doing what everyone advises one shouldn’t do and leave my all-valve system running at night and often while I was away from the house.
> 
> ...


----------



## canthearyou (Mar 6, 2018)

Lookie here! They have arrived. Very first impressions are very promising. Crisp, clear and spacious! The mids are warm, yet detailed. The highs right now sound almost perfect, if not just slightly rolled off(edit: they are actually pretty good). I am very pleased already. Can't wait for them to burn-in.
Also note my Sylvania 5998a arrived.

  
The 5998a are cooking! Gotta find some quality adaptors. The ones I have right now are molded plastic. I want ceramic.

PS. Even though they have the same date of construction, they are different. The orange/gold bases are a different tint and the mica plates are at different positions in the tube.


----------



## OctavianH

Congrats! Hmm, yours have 7.0mA and mine 10.5mA? Why? They seem to be the same tube?


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> Lookie here! They have arrived. Very first impressions are very promising. Crisp, clear and spacious! The mids are warm, yet detailed. The highs right now sound almost perfect, if not just slightly rolled off(edit: they are actually pretty good). I am very pleased already. Can't wait for them to burn-in.
> Also note my Sylvania 5998a arrived.
> 
> The 5998a are cooking! Gotta find some quality adaptors. The ones I have right now are molded plastic. I want ceramic.


Whey hey!!, lookin good chy!, any initial impressions on the Syl 5998a?.

Mine have been posted today so I'm keeping my fingers crossed they might arrive by the weekend.


----------



## canthearyou (Mar 6, 2018)

Scutey said:


> Whey hey!!, lookin good chy!, any initial impressions on the Syl 5998a?.
> 
> Mine have been posted today so I'm keeping my fingers crossed they might arrive by the weekend.



I can't say much as I rolled the new powers and drivers at the same time. But, if it does get better with burn-in, then I am finally at my end game. The soundstage is already very spacey and holographic, yet not to distant as to lose detail.


----------



## OctavianH

I do not want to bring bad news but mine seem to sound worse today than yesterday. So I guess it is happening what that guy was mentioning in the review I have posted a few posts ago. But I still  trust them to be a good choice!


----------



## canthearyou

OctavianH said:


> I do not want to bring bad news but mine seem to sound worse today than yesterday. So I guess it is happening what that guy was mentioning in the review I have posted a few posts ago. But I still  trust them to be a good choice!



Let's hope they get better! It is quite the gamble. But I was happy with the stock PSVANE tubes, so these have to be better, right? Lol


----------



## Scutey

canthearyou said:


> I can't say much as I rolled the new powers and drivers at the same time. But, if it does get better with burn-in, then I am finally at my end game. The soundstage is already very spacey and holographic, yet not to distant as to lose detail.


Good to hear chy, they must be pretty good if you think you might be near your endgame.



OctavianH said:


> I do not want to bring bad news but mine seem to sound worse today than yesterday. So I guess it is happening what that guy was mentioning in the review I have posted a few posts ago. But I still  trust them to be a good choice!


I read that review as well, it seems they go through several stages before they come out the other side, maybe you're going through one of those stages, hold you nerve OH!.


----------



## canthearyou

I shut it off and installed the socket savers.


----------



## OctavianH

Why? I have no socket savers but they seem to work fine without.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Why? I have no socket savers but they seem to work fine without.


I always use socket savers in my amps powers sockets to save wear and tear and also to help keep it cooler, doesn't affect the tubes/sound in any way.


----------



## canthearyou

OctavianH said:


> Why? I have no socket savers but they seem to work fine without.



Just to keep the heat away from amp internals. The short bottle powers get extremely hot at the base.


----------



## connieflyer

Canthearyou, you are only the second person I have seen using the 5998a's , I have been using the RCA 5998a for a couple of years and do like them.  Hope the PSvanes work out for you.  If you get a chance to try the 6N7G's  with the 5998a's it is a very nice warm combo


----------



## canthearyou (Mar 6, 2018)

The first 6 hours have been great! I really enjoyed them. Now to shut off the amp for a couple hours while I make dinner for the family.


----------



## OctavianH

Interesting idea with the socket savers to protect the amp. I was thinking at something like this to protect the amp sockets in the tube rolling process when you insert/extract often a tube from them... and wanted to buy 4 socket savers and change the tube only in them. But I gave up...


----------



## canthearyou

About 10 days ago I decided to pick up a small desktop to replace the laptop I've been using(w/out problems). Well, the new desktop is much faster than the old laptop, but it has an issue. While listening to music it would suddenly stop outputting audio. It does this both on Tidal and Foobar. With Tidal the music would stop playing, but the song time progression would keep going. I could hit pause/play and it would start playing again. With Foobar it would randomly stop playing and everything stops. But the app never went into 'Not Responding'. I have to hit stop and restart the track from the beginning. So I hooked up my old $165 refurbished laptop and all is well again. So I'm heading to Best Buy to return the defective PC.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Interesting idea with the socket savers to protect the amp. I was thinking at something like this to protect the amp sockets in the tube rolling process when you insert/extract often a tube from them... and wanted to buy 4 socket savers and change the tube only in them. But I gave up...


Hi O,

Why give up?
Here is an inexpensive source for octal socket savers. I use these myself - not the highest quality, but they do the job. 
The listing is for 10 sockets (five are not octal). If you are interested, ask them for a quote for 4 octal (shipping is free) and you should get them for around $10. 
It says that they are good for 200 times, I have not had any problems with them. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bakelite-V...925349?hash=item35d00f3965:g:nJsAAMXQlgtSvMK4

There is always the option to get high quality socket savers for $27 each....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-8-pin-...592952?hash=item3af52edf78:g:GOgAAOSwK~RZ7RHd


----------



## OctavianH

Hard to say why, I guess I decided to wait for the adapters and then finally decide what and how I would use.
I was looking also on these ones:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Octa...34-GZ34-KT88-6V6-6L6-5Z3P-6SN7GT/191109289479
What do you think of them?


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Hard to say why, I guess I decided to wait for the adapters and then finally decide what and how I would use.
> I was looking also on these ones:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Octa...34-GZ34-KT88-6V6-6L6-5Z3P-6SN7GT/191109289479
> What do you think of them?


I have many adapters from this seller. She is very reliable and cooperative. The only problem I had was two adapters where the plastic center pin broke off, but they were ultimately replaced.
Personally, I prefer a lower priced octal socket saver because of the cost, but she made several custom adapters at our request for the Feliks amps and those you cannot find elsewhere.


----------



## mordy

Does anybody know if it is safe to run only one channel (power tube + driver tube) without the other two tubes in their sockets?
I think I read something to that effect but don't remember clearly.


----------



## canthearyou (Mar 8, 2018)

mordy said:


> I have many adapters from this seller. She is very reliable and cooperative. The only problem I had was two adapters where the plastic center pin broke off, but they were ultimately replaced.
> Personally, I prefer a lower priced octal socket saver because of the cost, but she made several custom adapters at our request for the Feliks amps and those you cannot find elsewhere.



She is awesome! Just yesterday I asked her about offering the quality socket saver in black base instead of brass. She replied very fast and said no problem. She then created an item listing for me to pay. I now have nice socket savers on the way.

Edit: as I was writing the above I got notification that the item shipped.


----------



## canthearyou

Tube update: After about 30 hours of on time they are sounding better and better. The combo is very detailed and clean.


----------



## OctavianH

canthearyou said:


> She is awesome! Just yesterday I asked her about offering the quality socket saver in black base instead of brass. She replied very fast and said no problem. She then created an item listing for me to pay. I now have nice socket savers on the way.
> 
> Edit: as I was writing the above I got notification that the item shipped.



Too bad I already ordered the brass ones. Anyhow, I do not think it will be so important to have them in black, since the adapters are not black either.

And now a question:

I've seen that some of you are using the same tube type as either driver or power (for example the ELxN ones). How are you deciding which one can be used or not as power/driver?
The "stock" ones have driver = 0.6A and power = 2.5A, so I guess every type under these values should not, at least, damage the amp. But are other limitations to take into consideration?
Or minimal values? HP impedance? I have basic electrical skills and I quite understand what should happen in an electronic circuit but better to ask.

What I guess is that high impedance cans (like my T1 600Ohm for example) require less current and if you put a power tube with less current on Elise all you will need to do is to increase the volume.
For low impedance cans I guess such a combo will not work.

For example, some datasheets provided me this info:


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Too bad I already ordered the brass ones. Anyhow, I do not think it will be so important to have them in black, since the adapters are not black either.
> 
> And now a question:
> 
> ...


Hi O,

Very good question! Based on what Feliks Audio told me is that what counts is the total current draw of all four tubes- not to exceed 6.8A.
Any combination that does not exceed this amperage is OK. That said, driver tubes are different than power tubes (the only exceptions I can think of is the EL3N and EL12N).
Each tube has a multiplication factor; the power tubes are usually on the low side with a mu of say 2.5. The driver tubes can have mu's of 15-30 or higher; too high a number may result in distortion. And as you say, different values can be compensated by turning  up the volume.
I don't think that numbers can dictate how something is going to sound - it is trial and error to figure out what works best for, and many factors come into play, including your equipment and personal taste.
But all this makes tube rolling such a fascinating thing for me.....


----------



## OctavianH

New tubes in house. After more than 1 month I have finally received a pair of Mullard 6080 from Langrex:






I will see in the following days if it was a wise purchase or not.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> New tubes in house. After more than 1 month I have finally received a pair of Mullard 6080 from Langrex:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good to hear they've finally arrived!. I've found the Mullard 6080 to be a very good dynamic sounding tube.

I'm still waiting for my Psvanes to arrive, they should have arrived on Saturday but nothing, think I might have trouble getting them as postal services in the UK are now pretty bad.


----------



## OctavianH

I am not sure if these are a good pair to CV181, but I will let them cook a little bit. They are definitely more aggressive and straight somehow, but I guess I am missing some bass and they seem a little bit too harsh.






By the way, how can I find the manufacturing year? Nothing written on these.


----------



## Scutey

Should be somewhere on the glass, near the base. Here's a pic of one of mine.
the code on mine says AJ1-R4T, unfortunately I can't decipher it but I think they are 70's, I bet mordy would know!.


----------



## Scutey

BTW, how are the Psavnes sounding?.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> New tubes in house. After more than 1 month I have finally received a pair of Mullard 6080 from Langrex:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've just notices the manufacture year code on your tubes, bottom left on the glass, I think it's AJ1-R4I


----------



## attmci

Scutey said:


> I've just notices the manufacture year code on your tubes, bottom left on the glass, I think it's AJ1-R4I


Mitcham, Great Britain, 1964 or 74, Sept.

These tubes are rebranded as Philips, and sometimes can be obtained for $10 plus shipping.


----------



## Scutey

attmci said:


> Mitcham, Great Britain, 1964 or 74, Sept.
> 
> These tubes are rebranded as Philips, and sometimes can be obtained for $10 plus shipping.


Thanks for the info @attmci .


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> Mitcham, Great Britain, 1964 or 74, Sept.
> 
> These tubes are rebranded as Philips, and sometimes can be obtained for $10 plus shipping.


Hi attmci,

Please let me know where you can get them for $10. I paid $30 a couple of years ago, and the going rate is $50 and up.


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> Hi attmci,
> 
> Please let me know where you can get them for $10. I paid $30 a couple of years ago, and the going rate is $50 and up.


I am pretty sure I had notified you that time.But you have no interest.


----------



## Oskari

Scutey said:


> the code on mine says AJ1-R4T


Yours must be R4I as well because it can't be R4T.


----------



## Oskari

attmci said:


> Mitcham, Great Britain, 1964 or 74, Sept.


Probably 74 because the CV date is 7640 (YYWW).


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> BTW, how are the Psavnes sounding?.



The Psvanes are sounding good, detailed but I still look for a good power pair for them. I have that "recessed mids" problem I was talking about.
We will see what combinations I can make with them to sound better. They do not seem to be the problem, but the power tubes I am using with them.

Thank you all for the help of decyphering my 6080s, do you know something about these also? This is the only thing written on them and no date/year.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> The Psvanes are sounding good, detailed but I still look for a good power pair for them. I have that "recessed mids" problem I was talking about.
> We will see what combinations I can make with them to sound better. They do not seem to be the problem, but the power tubes I am using with them.
> 
> Thank you all for the help of decyphering my 6080s, do you know something about these also? This is the only thing written on them and no date/year.


I have the same ones OH, I'm fairly sure they're mid 80's  Sylvanias, rebranded as Philips.

Hopefully, both the Psvanes and Mullards, with burn in, will fill out in the mids.

Bit of a mystery with my Psvanes, according to tracking info they were delivered this morning, but not to my house and not my signature, nor to my next door neighbour, so they've been delivered, just not sure where to or to whom!.


----------



## OctavianH

Let's hope the mistery is not a mistake and now some guy is looking at those tubes and does not have any idea what they are used for and why he received them for free.

@Scutey If I remember correctly you were very disappointed about RCA Jan CRC 6AS7Gs? What was the main problem of them?


----------



## Scutey

Hi OH,

Problem solved!, they were with another neighbour just up the road, although why they didn't post them direct to me is a mystery. Too early to tell how they are going to sound as I've only have a few minutes on them, I'll report back in a day or two on my thoughts with them.

You mentioned the RCA 6AS7G, I rather like the sound they produce it's more to do with them being rather noisy, or the tubes I have being noisy, it's a sort of ringing sound, I have three pairs, badged as RCA, Sylvania and Raytheon and they are all a bit noisy, although it is unpredictable, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't!, but when they are silent it's a nice tube, airy detailed, spacious and has decent bass.


----------



## OctavianH

Wow. Impressive.

I was asking because I tried these with the Psvanes and they sound decent, the only problem I have is that they have too much bass as I was expecting, but no noise or anything, clean sound:






Anyhow, after trying several combinations I reached the point where my favourite one is the Euforia Stock (CV181T2 + 6H13C). Hell knows why, I have to be crazy or these really improved.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Wow. Impressive.
> 
> I was asking because I tried these with the Psvanes and they sound decent, the only problem I have is that they have too much bass as I was expecting, but no noise or anything, clean sound:
> 
> ...


I think I've just been  bit unlucky with my 6AS7G, and the noise isn't always there, so I will keep using them, it was interesting what you say about the bass being strong with them, I'll have to give that combo a try!.

As for the 6H13C, I rather like it, doesn't sound good with all my drivers, but with some they sound very good, and as you say, F.A. use that combo for the Euforia, so they can't be that bad!,


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> I am pretty sure I had notified you that time.But you have no interest.


Hi attmci,

I am trying to remember what happened with your lead... I think that at the time I misunderstood and did not realize that they were Mullard tubes rebranded Philips and thought them to be Philips rebranded Sylvania 6080's which I have and aren't expensive.
I have to pay better attention to your leads from now on!


----------



## Scutey

Continuing to burn the Psvanes. OH I can recommend the EL12N with them, this combo sounds fantastic, very detailed, and dynamic sound!, really enjoying this combo, better so far than even my beloved EL3N's and Chatham 2399.


----------



## OctavianH

Good to hear @Scutey because I own a pair of RSD EL12N and I am waiting also for the adapters to use them. I have done yesterday my last acquisition: Tung Sol 5998. I could not resist to buy them when I found a guy in Czeh Republic (so quite close to me) who was selling them.
In the meantime I tried several combinations of what I had and realize that these Psvane are the best drivers I own. So let's hope the 5998 or the EL12N will be the perfect pair and I will reach the final state of my searching.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Good to hear @Scutey because I own a pair of RSD EL12N and I am waiting also for the adapters to use them. I have done yesterday my last acquisition: Tung Sol 5998. I could not resist to buy them when I found a guy in Czeh Republic (so quite close to me) who was selling them.
> In the meantime I tried several combinations of what I had and realize that these Psvane are the best drivers I own. So let's hope the 5998 or the EL12N will be the perfect pair and I will reach the final state of my searching.


Nice one OH!, the TS 5998 is a very good tube, I know what you mean about couldn't resist, I was exactly the same! lol.

I'm going to give the Psv and the EL12N some more time tonight, to my ears at least they sounded particularly good with metal, bass was a bit reduced but mids and highs seemed more detailed, but also with better attack, will see if tonight if that is still the case.

Enjoy those, EL12N and 5998's !.


----------



## OctavianH

I have the same expectations from 5998, but we will see. Today I changed a little bit the playlist and listened to Brendan Perry - Ark. This is an incredible album. Last week I changed to Soundtracks and listened to Songs of Anarchy. This is a kind of blues/rock collection from Sons of Anarchy TV series. I have to admit it sounded incredible on those russian 6H8C + 6H13C.
I am curious to see what will happen when I will switch to classical, for example Brahms No. 4 which is one of my "all time favourites" . We will see because what usually sounds good with rock/metal will sound good with all the genres I listen from time to time. But I have to be careful with classical because when I think about it I think also about HD800S and my wallet starts screaming.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I have the same expectations from 5998, but we will see. Today I changed a little bit the playlist and listened to Brendan Perry - Ark. This is an incredible album. Last week I changed to Soundtracks and listened to Songs of Anarchy. This is a kind of blues/rock collection from Sons of Anarchy TV series. I have to admit it sounded incredible on those russian 6H8C + 6H13C.
> I am curious to see what will happen when I will switch to classical, for example Brahms No. 4 which is one of my "all time favourites" . We will see because what usually sounds good with rock/metal will sound good with all the genres I listen from time to time. But I have to be careful with classical because when I think about it I think also about HD800S and my wallet starts screaming.


I like to mix it up a bit too, the genres I usually listen too are Metal/Rock, Jazz and classical, spent yesterday evening doing Metal with the Psvanes and EL12N and the sound was fantastic!, today I'm going to try the same set up with Jazz and Classical, whether this set up will work with those genres only time will tell, sounds like you've hit a good combo in the  6H8C + 6H13C, in terms of cost you can't really get much cheaper, just proves that you don't always have to pay a lot to get a good sound.

As for those HD 800 S , I can just imagine your wallet screaming, I've just seen a pair of Beyer T1 2.0 up for sale on eBay what seems a very reasonable price and I'm sure I can my wallet sobbing!.


----------



## OctavianH

I will try the same combo (Psvane + EL12N) when my adapters will come. They are somewhere lost, no info on tracking for already a week. Let's hope I will still receive them. 
I tried a lot of bands, but for example now I listen to latest Judas Priest album, Firepower, and something is not right on Psvane + 6H13C. I simply do not like the guitar tone, and I am not sure if it is a tube problem, ear problem or production problem.
And I cannot compare it with some previous experiences since I bought this album recently and tried it only on Elise... Anyway, this is a killer album, best one for me since Painkiller and if I say this, it has to be something


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> Hi attmci,
> 
> I am trying to remember what happened with your lead... I think that at the time I misunderstood and did not realize that they were Mullard tubes rebranded Philips and thought them to be Philips rebranded Sylvania 6080's which I have and aren't expensive.
> I have to pay better attention to your leads from now on!



Mordy, No big deal. It may just sounds like a Sylvania 6080.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I will try the same combo (Psvane + EL12N) when my adapters will come. They are somewhere lost, no info on tracking for already a week. Let's hope I will still receive them.
> I tried a lot of bands, but for example now I listen to latest Judas Priest album, Firepower, and something is not right on Psvane + 6H13C. I simply do not like the guitar tone, and I am not sure if it is a tube problem, ear problem or production problem.
> And I cannot compare it with some previous experiences since I bought this album recently and tried it only on Elise... Anyway, this is a killer album, best one for me since Painkiller and if I say this, it has to be something


Hopefully you'll like the EL12N, and don't have to wait too much longer.

I've just downloaded the Judas Priest album my self, so I'll give it a listen this evening, I'll listen carefully, but of course there could be many reasons if I don't notice anything.


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Hopefully you'll like the EL12N, and don't have to wait too much longer.



My fist set of adapters seems to be lost, but the second package seems to arrive next week (socket savers and EL12N adapters). So the EL3N saga will continue.

In the meantime I found out the "end game":


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> My fist set of adapters seems to be lost, but the second package seems to arrive next week (socket savers and EL12N adapters). So the EL3N saga will continue.
> 
> In the meantime I found out the "end game":


Fingers crossed you get those adapters!.
Nice beer glass bty!.


----------



## OctavianH

I start to think the world is getting crazy, guys. All the couriers have gone mad. I really cannot understand what is happening with the local UPS and DHL...
This beer glass I bought in Hamburg a few years ago at somewhere of 20 EUR, and now I think those money were meant for a good pair of tubes. Anyway, I love it and it is quite "metal", so it is my daily beer glass.
We need to find peace in small things guys because if we power on our TV we see: Putin elected for the 4th time, Trump does whatever, Brits want Brexit and in my country socialists raise taxes every day to feed non working people and steal money... 
I need a break, a good beer and some good music. My TV is used only for PS4 and UPNP lately and Elise is my escape room.


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## Scutey

OH, I could not have put it better myself, I know exactly what you mean and I don't suppose you, or me are the only ones either who feel that way, when it's been a stressful day, and nothing seems to make sense I head to my "music room" switch on the Elise watch those tubes start to glow, listen to whatever I fancy at the time and then things start to make sense again!


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## OctavianH (Mar 22, 2018)

Ok, so back on track. My Tung Sol 5998 arrived today:







They are manufactured sometime in '53 and my impressions is that they are detailed but somehow laid back. But they might not be burned in since the previous owner told me he used them only 10hrs with WA2.

So now the listening sessions start and what better source can I have than the latest Judas Priest album:






We will see in the next days if I will consider them my end game or the searching will continue. At this moment I miss some highs here.
But the mids are decent and the bass is precise and somehow puchy.

And a question:

What is the difference between Tung Sol 5998 white label vs green label?


----------



## attmci

OctavianH said:


> Ok, so back on track. My Tung Sol 5998 arrived today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess is the year of manufacturing.

A clear-top 5998 is more close to a WE421. But hard to find.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Ok, so back on track. My Tung Sol 5998 arrived today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice tubes OH!, you're right the 5998 is a bit more relaxed, quite warm but has great bass, not tried the Psavane with the 5998 so will give it a try this evening.

As for your question about white v green label, I'm not sure if there is any difference although perhaps someone with a bit more knowledge on this subject might be able to enlighten you more than I can.

Enjoy those 5998's!


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## OctavianH (Mar 23, 2018)

I am not sure these pair well with Psvane since those are very neutral and transparent. But I guess they should pair well with brighter ones like C3G?
But for that I need adapters and they are somewhere lost in the Bermuda Triangle. So I still wait for them.

Later edit:
I found a much better pair for these 5998 in 6H8C. Now I start to like them more and more...


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I am not sure these pair well with Psvane since those are very neutral and transparent. But I guess they should pair well with brighter ones like C3G?
> But for that I need adapters and they are somewhere lost in the Bermuda Triangle. So I still wait for them.
> 
> Later edit:
> I found a much better pair for these 5998 in 6H8C. Now I start to like them more and more...


Yes I think C3G might pair well with the 5998, I haven't tried this combo yet but I will give it a go and report back.


----------



## Scutey

OH, what is the bass like on your 6H8C, the ones  in your last pic?, seeing as they're so cheap I'm tempted to give them a go.


----------



## attmci (Mar 25, 2018)

Deleted.


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## Scutey

C3G and 5998 is great combo, warm, big soundstage, detailed and plenty bass punch.


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> OH, what is the bass like on your 6H8C, the ones  in your last pic?, seeing as they're so cheap I'm tempted to give them a go.



The bass is ok but not so precise. Basicly these 6H8C are somehow similar with 6H13C.

I think these 5998 are improving after 10hrs. I switched back to Psvane and I am not so unpleased. So patience is the key.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> The bass is ok but not so precise. Basicly these 6H8C are somehow similar with 6H13C.
> 
> I think these 5998 are improving after 10hrs. I switched back to Psvane and I am not so unpleased. So patience is the key.


Thanks for the info OH on the 6H8C, at such cheap prices I might give them a go.

Good to hear your starting to enjoy the 5998's, I took an instant liking to them, but then we are all different!, I only tried the 5998 with the Psvane for an hour and only tried them with Jazz but I have to say I rather liked what I heard, will have to give em a go with some metal.


----------



## attmci (Mar 25, 2018)

Deleted.


----------



## Scutey

attmci said:


> You guys should go to the other active threads.
> Those guys love FA amp to death before all think it's a piece of junk now.


?


----------



## attmci (Mar 25, 2018)

Deleted.


----------



## Scutey

attmci said:


> 2359....
> 
> Read some old post here and there, u'll find history repeats.


Ok, @attmci, I'll have a look, always interested to see what others have said


----------



## canthearyou

I'm still very much enjoying the 5998a/cv181 combo. These will be in this amp as long as I own it. I am so pleased with the Elise that if I do sell it for a different amp, it would be something approaching summit-fi. Which for me is 5k and up. Possibly the new unknown F.A. amp.


----------



## hypnos1

canthearyou said:


> I'm still very much enjoying the 5998a/cv181 combo. These will be in this amp as long as I own it. I am so pleased with the Elise that if I do sell it for a different amp, it would be something approaching summit-fi. Which for me is 5k and up. Possibly the new unknown F.A. amp.



As others are finding out(!), F-A's amps sound good no matter _almost_ what tubes are used - but this can sometimes have you going around in circles!!

Like me, you sound interested as to what F-A have in store...hopefully at a price that will seriously compete (at an attractive price!) with what has recently appeared on the market. Am still awaiting progress of same, but if much like the early impressions, it does indeed look _very_ interesting...will keep you all informed...CJ


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## attmci (Mar 25, 2018)

Deleted.


----------



## OctavianH

attmci said:


> You guys should go to the other active threads.
> Those guys love FA amp to death before all think it's a piece of junk Schiit now.



Since I think your post was addressed to me, I will answer. I understood your complaint and I will try to post more "informative" stuff. In this way I hope you will not send me to the "other active threads" and the history will not repeat itself. 
I am a new Elise owner, received my amp on 20.02, and this is the reason behind my enthusiasm and the number of posts I make for the same tube pair, which somehow are in contradiction because some of them are NOS and still evolving. 

Regarding Elise, I am enjoying it and I think it is a good amp even for the new price point. Many users here own the first version and their price/performance ratio is much higher.
When buying it I had to choose between WA6SE and Elise 2018, both at the same price. The decision was made based on the community feedback and the tube rolling options because unfortunately, where I live I cannot find a decent audio shop to try. So I really needed advice and a helping community.


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## attmci (Mar 25, 2018)

Deleted.


----------



## OctavianH

Regarding upgrades and very expensive toys I have to say one thing: we always have to think straight and make a good difference between a technical upgrade and marketing. Why I am saying this? I do not have a vast experience on tube amps, I started this hobby 2-3 years ago only because I had that nostalgia related to the old analogue sound I had on my old tapes, while living in my parents house. BUT I have a quite good experience on gaming rigs because I am a gamer spending thousands of EUR on PC components for almost 20 years. And what is happening in the gaming world is somehow similar with audio equipment. I will explain. When we started to build gaming rigs many years ago we made this because of a huge passion for IT and computing. This "science" was at that time at the beginning and people were more enthusiastic than nowadays. But years passed and the prices increased a lot, and technology remained somewhere behind the desire and need for new. So now Intel is releasing yearly a 5% more efficient CPU, NVIDIA is increasing prices based on Bitcoin miners demand and so on. It is capitalism, people make money because they can, but forgot to innovate. We have tempered glass cases, RGB leds everywhere and we fight for 1 FPS more than on the rig of the neighbor but we forgot to enjoy a good game and to feel that team work we had in 90s when playing an online game. Now we fight for achievements and make shinny pictures of our gaming rigs. 

I made this analogy to prepare my question: How much is "pride" compared to sonic improvement on a 5000$ amp? Because a 5000$ amp requires a complete "line" of components priced a the same range to benefit from it and we reach somewhere to 20K $ or more. I am convinced there is a difference, but I have to say you might experience it on 5% of your recordings which are produced at the quality needed to make difference.

What I have learned from PC world:
It really makes sense to spend for what you love, but lately, since marketing won over innovation, the middle way is the best for everyone. So I have not made a 1080Ti SLI but decided to go on the 1070 SLI and a better monitor. I remained on DDR3 and kept my old 4790K which overclocked at 4.5GGHz works perfectly for me.
On audio I guess Elise with good tubes is my best choice now, and maybe in the future (2-3 years) Euforia will be an improvement, IF F.A. will keep a decent price range and keep the same tube types to be able to use my existing collection. In the meantime I can learn about tubes and find out if that Cross Feed is really important and helps somehow.
For me an amp of 3000-5000 EUR is not an option because I feel that in the end we spend more and more because of scientific reasons and forget to enjoy listening a good song with a good beer in hand. BUT time is the only one who can tell me how wrong I am in this moment, or not 

These were my 2 cents regarding upgrades, and excuse my analogy with an "off topic" area.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Regarding upgrades and very expensive toys I have to say one thing: we always have to think straight and make a good difference between a technical upgrade and marketing. Why I am saying this? I do not have a vast experience on tube amps, I started this hobby 2-3 years ago only because I had that nostalgia related to the old analogue sound I had on my old tapes, while living in my parents house. BUT I have a quite good experience on gaming rigs because I am a gamer spending thousands of EUR on PC components for almost 20 years. And what is happening in the gaming world is somehow similar with audio equipment. I will explain. When we started to build gaming rigs many years ago we made this because of a huge passion for IT and computing. This "science" was at that time at the beginning and people were more enthusiastic than nowadays. But years passed and the prices increased a lot, and technology remained somewhere behind the desire and need for new. So now Intel is releasing yearly a 5% more efficient CPU, NVIDIA is increasing prices based on Bitcoin miners demand and so on. It is capitalism, people make money because they can, but forgot to innovate. We have tempered glass cases, RGB leds everywhere and we fight for 1 FPS more than on the rig of the neighbor but we forgot to enjoy a good game and to feel that team work we had in 90s when playing an online game. Now we fight for achievements and make shinny pictures of our gaming rigs.
> 
> I made this analogy to prepare my question: How much is "pride" compared to sonic improvement on a 5000$ amp? Because a 5000$ amp requires a complete "line" of components priced a the same range to benefit from it and we reach somewhere to 20K $ or more. I am convinced there is a difference, but I have to say you might experience it on 5% of your recordings which are produced at the quality needed to make difference.
> 
> ...


Hi O,

Like everything else today, there is a lot of marketing hype. IMHO price is not always an indicator of performance. Somebody who is a high end salesman stated that you cannot sell a really expensive tube amp unless it has a lot of tube glow, never mind if there are tubes that sound better but do not display so much fireworks.
I also think that FA has priced themselves out of their market level - time will tell.
There are tube amps that have stellar performance and that compare very favorably to $5000 amps for less than a third of the price. And there are actually people who have compared these amps to each other, including the Elise/Euforia.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Regarding upgrades and very expensive toys I have to say one thing: we always have to think straight and make a good difference between a technical upgrade and marketing. Why I am saying this? I do not have a vast experience on tube amps, I started this hobby 2-3 years ago only because I had that nostalgia related to the old analogue sound I had on my old tapes, while living in my parents house. BUT I have a quite good experience on gaming rigs because I am a gamer spending thousands of EUR on PC components for almost 20 years. And what is happening in the gaming world is somehow similar with audio equipment. I will explain. When we started to build gaming rigs many years ago we made this because of a huge passion for IT and computing. This "science" was at that time at the beginning and people were more enthusiastic than nowadays. But years passed and the prices increased a lot, and technology remained somewhere behind the desire and need for new. So now Intel is releasing yearly a 5% more efficient CPU, NVIDIA is increasing prices based on Bitcoin miners demand and so on. It is capitalism, people make money because they can, but forgot to innovate. We have tempered glass cases, RGB leds everywhere and we fight for 1 FPS more than on the rig of the neighbor but we forgot to enjoy a good game and to feel that team work we had in 90s when playing an online game. Now we fight for achievements and make shinny pictures of our gaming rigs.
> 
> I made this analogy to prepare my question: How much is "pride" compared to sonic improvement on a 5000$ amp? Because a 5000$ amp requires a complete "line" of components priced a the same range to benefit from it and we reach somewhere to 20K $ or more. I am convinced there is a difference, but I have to say you might experience it on 5% of your recordings which are produced at the quality needed to make difference.
> 
> ...


Well said OH. With my last tube purchase, the Psavanes, was probably my last big buy for the Elise, unless I find a great deal on a pair of GEC 6as7g, or 6080, which I doubt will happen!, for now with the Elise I'm not chasing for the ultimate sound as with just a few tubes I have now found  a sound(s) that I'm really happy with, so for now, like you, it's enjoying the music, and sometimes with a beer!


----------



## DavidA

@OctavianH, I like your analogy to the gaming world of custom builds and agree that there very little innovation these days but prices just keep going up due to marketing.


----------



## myphone

Good tubes could still be found for reasonable prices, even though is getting much rarer,  mostly from non-audiophiles it experienced sellers. I have taken a few chances in the past months on untested tubes, these highly sought after ones, 421A (pair), 5998 (lot of 5), Tekeunken EL12sp, Tekeunken ECC801s, Amperex 7316 at much lower prices I have seen in years. All turned out NIB or NOS. EL 12sp is still pending. I have been playing tubes for 20 years. Sometime from tube dealer, got six matched NIB Mullard 6080WA for less than half of the going rate (rate went up after purchase, running special?). Patience, gut feeling and risk-taking sometime pay off.


----------



## myphone

For drivers, I have a regulated 12v power supply, 12SN7 family tubes are much cheaper than the 6v siblings.


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Well said OH. With my last tube purchase, the Psavanes, was probably my last big buy for the Elise, unless I find a great deal on a pair of GEC 6as7g, or 6080, which I doubt will happen!, for now with the Elise I'm not chasing for the ultimate sound as with just a few tubes I have now found  a sound(s) that I'm really happy with, so for now, like you, it's enjoying the music, and sometimes with a beer!



GEC 6AS7G are very hard to find, but I found these in Sweden:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/GEC-6AS7G-A...331833?hash=item285423eab9:g:Yh0AAOSw4ltapTqp
This is a guy who sells 2 pairs, but the price of 485EUR is too high for me to convince me to make this purchase.


----------



## Scutey

Yes I saw them too, and like you, that is just too high a price, as much as I would like to try them, one day I'm hoping I might see a pair less than £100, well I can dream!.


----------



## myphone

OctavianH said:


> Ok, so back on track. My Tung Sol 5998 arrived today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



5998 manufactured before 1957 were structurally different from later dates.

green label, I believe, was made in 1960's.


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 26, 2018)

Impressive quality have these ceramic socket savers from xulingmrs:







Elise does not look as good as before but at least the heat stays out of it:






Regarding sound impact, maybe I am crazy but I think I have less bass with these. Maybe they add some resistance and this impacts lower frequencies.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Impressive quality have these ceramic socket savers from xulingmrs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi O,
Some people who did not like the look of the adapters either painted them black with heat resistant paint, or put on black shrink wrap.
Have not seen any reports that socket savers change the sound.


----------



## hypnos1 (Mar 26, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> Impressive quality have these ceramic socket savers from xulingmrs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Different ears and setups might well impact upon perceived differences when using adapters/socket savers etc., OH...just one of the reasons I personally prefer the cool-running EL11s driving the EL12 Spezial powers...


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Different ears and setups might well impact upon perceived differences when using adapters/socket savers etc., OH...just one of the reasons I personally prefer the cool-running EL11s driving the EL12 Spezial powers...


Another reason to use socket savers (in addition to reducing the heat dissipation from the tubes to the chassis) is - you guessed it: to save the sockets from wear and tear. I know of people who had to replace the original tube sockets in their amps because of tube rolling.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Another reason to use socket savers (in addition to reducing the heat dissipation from the tubes to the chassis) is - you guessed it: to save the sockets from wear and tear.* I know of people who had to replace the original tube sockets in their amps because of tube rolling*.



Too true mordy - with the sockets in Elise. But there were also those who removed _both_ the tubes and socket savers, thereby negating the amp's socket saving!! 

Also, I address more those I hope will not do so much tube rolling, no matter how much tempted...try to learn from others' mistakes/experimentation lol!!...(many of us have already been there! ).


----------



## hypnos1

hypnos1 said:


> Too true mordy - with the sockets in Elise. But there were also those who removed _both_ the tubes and socket savers, thereby negating the amp's socket saving!!
> 
> Also, I address more those I hope will not do so much tube rolling, no matter how much tempted...try to learn from others' mistakes/experimentation lol!!...(many of us have already been there! ).


----------



## hypnos1

On a side note - to @OctavianH and others with/contemplating Elise as their headphone amp...I did an interesting A/B comparison with Icon Audio's HP8, which costs £850 vs Elise's now £1136 (less 23% for those outside EU), and which is highly regarded in Europe.

Whilst the HP8 is an extremely good amp, I personally found it no match for the Elise - in pretty well all departments. So as always, "you pays your money and......"!


----------



## Scutey

I use a pair of socket savers which are dead silent in the power sockets but hum in the driver sockets, has anyone had this problem?.


----------



## JazzVinyl

I personally think socket savers are a must in the Elise/Euphoria to reduce heat build up.  You can also avoid socket savers by running a fan, near Elise/Euphoria to blow across it, dissipating the heat.

And as H1 points out the EL series of tubes run very very cool.


----------



## OctavianH

mordy said:


> Another reason to use socket savers (in addition to reducing the heat dissipation from the tubes to the chassis) is - you guessed it: to save the sockets from wear and tear. I know of people who had to replace the original tube sockets in their amps because of tube rolling.



I plan to sell Elise in 2-3 years and maybe upgrade to Euforia if Euforia will be affordable and keep the same tube sockets and compatibility. This was one of the reason of acquiring socket savers, to keep the amp in mint condition.
A secondary reason was to improve heat dissipation. I have to say that these socket savers have a really good build quality, made from solid ceramic. They feel and look durable. But my first impression was that the sound signature changed a bit after I inserted them, and the bass quality and quantity decreased. So I will have to think and decide if I will let them mounted or remove them. My tube rolling usually ends when I find my perfect combination, so the socket wearing stops also.
The only consequence which remains relevant is the overheating of the amp's sockets, but normally the amp cooling system should be designed in such a way to avoid damage if you use tubes which are supported. So in normal conditions this should not be a problem either. In the end I will decide which is the best way for me to listen to it and keep it in that way. With or without socket savers, in the end what matters is to be pleased about it at least 3 years (as long as it sould work properly according to the included warranty).


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again guys.

To @OctavianH and others, I say there is no need whatsoever to apologise for stating - and showing - tubes/setups that may help folks in some way to approach their own favourites. This is, in fact, actively _encouraged!!_...as many of us have done in the past lol.

What I would repeat is, as has been stated by the genius engineer (Rob Watts) of Chord's top products, as well as certain of us here, that TIME is of paramount importance in coming to any accurate conclusion when assessing different equipment - _especially_ tubes (valves!). Not only does said equipment need this precious commodity, but also do our ears and brain - it's surprising just how long it takes both to "settle in", before true appreciation sets in - especially the latter, not fully grasped by many!

So I suggest allowing _plenty_ of time to let this particular necessity work its magic...the more the better! ...but most of all - ENJOY! ...CJ


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,

Agree completely - it takes time to adjust to new things and to see them in the proper light.


----------



## OctavianH

If no one says anything I will say that I tried this combo:






That red paint is creating me a lot of problems, since it began to fall easily when touching the tube. I have to admit I do not like it.


----------



## Scutey (Mar 29, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> If no one says anything I will say that I tried this combo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi OH,

I've not tried that combo yet, but I will give it a go. The last couple days I've been going with Psvane and 5998, which, imo is a fab combo, one thing to bear in mind with the EL3N is like the Psvane they need a lot of burn in, also have you tried them as drivers yet?, again, imo they sound very good with the EL12N as powers, or the other way around and also  used as powers with the C3G, something worth trying when you get your adapters.


----------



## OctavianH

CV181T2 + 5998 is indeed a very good combination. But CV181T2 + EL3N had too much bass for my taste with T1.2. So I just tried it and then kept the 5998 as powers. The adapters will come, but the local post office is the worst possible postal office, hard to say when I can try C3g with 5998, a combo for which I have quite great expectations.


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 3, 2018)

Today my adapters finally arrived and I tried 2 new combinations:

1) C3g+5998 - not exactly what I was expecting







2) Psvane + RSD EL12N - this one is really good, less bass and more aggressive. With this one Judas Priest starts to have that guitar I once knew. I say that this one has potential to become one of my preferred combinations






These tube combinations are new and I did not have enough time for them, but I will keep for sure 2) at least a few days to analyze it. Good stuff.

Remarks related to combination:
1) -> with volume = 0 I had some "hum" in headphones, increasing volume solved it
2) -> I needed here to increase a lot the volume (has to be related to the Gain stuff @mordy was mentioning)


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Today my adapters finally arrived and I tried 2 new combinations:
> 
> 1) C3g+5998 - not exactly what I was expecting
> 
> ...


Hi OH,

Good to hear you have finally received your adapters, good things come to those who wait!.

Personally I like both those combinations you've tried, but for me the Psvane/EL12N just edges it.

A combination I've been using the last couple days is my Chatham 2399/5998 and Ken Rad 6C8G for drivers, the KR's are quick  and extended on top, with fantastic head thumping bass and super wide sound stage, what it lacks in refined FR it more than makes up for it in sheer fun factor.

Oh and great pics as well!


----------



## OctavianH

You had the same problem like me with C3g + 5998 : buzz in the headphones with volume set to 0?


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> You had the same problem like me with C3g + 5998 : buzz in the headphones with volume set to 0?


OH, have you tried using your C3g without the driver socket savers?, I have one pair of socket savers and when I use them in the driver sockets all of my driver tubes hum or buzz including the C3g, however when the same socket savers are used in the power sockets they're silent, might be worth a try.


----------



## OctavianH

No, but next time I'll try this. Thanks.


----------



## richdytch (Apr 6, 2018)

Been neglecting my Elise for a long time because got a Croft Micro 25L to use as a preamp for my stereo... but recently decided to relocate the Elise to my office. And I'm glad I did - had been thinking of selling it, because as a preamp, the Croft is in a different league. But now I'm rediscovering the Elise as a headphone amp and I'm loving it. My current jam is EL12N powers and 1944 RCA VT231 drivers. Great. I've remembered I CAN listen to music while I work, without getting irritated, or getting tinnitus.


----------



## Scutey

Hi @richdytch ,

I wouldn't mind taking my Elise to work just to see the reaction from my colleagues!, I also have the EL12N and some RCA but I've never combined the two, sounds interesting, might have to give it a try!.


----------



## richdytch

Hi @Scutey I should have said "home office".... where I work mainly. I think if I'd brought the Elise into the office in town they'd have me locked up! EL12N + RCA VT231 working well with the HE400.


----------



## Scutey

richdytch said:


> Hi @Scutey I should have said "home office".... where I work mainly. I think if I'd brought the Elise into the office in town they'd have me locked up! EL12N + RCA VT231 working well with the HE400.


Lol I can imagine!, will definitely give the EL12N + RCA a go, always like trying new combinations.


----------



## OctavianH

After almost 1 week with Psvane and EL12N I switched back to 5998. And now I have the feeling that the sound is incredible. These are evolving or I am crazy or both. Patience is the answer like a wise man was saying.

And 2 questions:
1. Any opinion on 7236 compared to 5998?
2. Does CrossFeed worth the money on Euforia? I guess to combine both channels gives you a more natural experience, since on real world you hear a noise with both ears when it occurs.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> After almost 1 week with Psvane and EL12N I switched back to 5998. And now I have the feeling that the sound is incredible. These are evolving or I am crazy or both. Patience is the answer like a wise man was saying.
> 
> And 2 questions:
> 1. Any opinion on 7236 compared to 5998?
> 2. Does CrossFeed worth the money on Euforia? I guess to combine both channels gives you a more natural experience, since on real world you hear a noise with both ears when it occurs.


Hi O,
As you are discovering, it takes time to solidify an opinion re tube sound, especially if tubes are a moving target and evolving. But with patience and time you will arrive at the proper opinion as far as your own taste is concerned.
I have both the TS7236 and the TS5998 tubes. IMHO the 7236 is more neutral and more solid state like in the sound, and the 5998 is more dynamic.
Re crossfeed I don't know if it is gimmick or helps the sound presentation - let your ears decide.
As a rule, the more sophisticated the amp, the less in the way of reproducing the original source as purely as possible.


----------



## OctavianH

mordy said:


> Hi O,
> I have both the TS7236 and the TS5998 tubes. IMHO the 7236 is more neutral and more solid state like in the sound, and the 5998 is more dynamic.



I will keep them to my wishlist, because I could not find any available at the moment.


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

mordy said:


> Hi O,
> As you are discovering, it takes time to solidify an opinion re tube sound, especially if tubes are a moving target and evolving. But with patience and time you will arrive at the proper opinion as far as your own taste is concerned.
> I have both the TS7236 and the TS5998 tubes. IMHO the 7236 is more neutral and more solid state like in the sound, and the 5998 is more dynamic.
> Re crossfeed I don't know if it is gimmick or helps the sound presentation - let your ears decide.
> As a rule, the more sophisticated the amp, the less in the way of reproducing the original source as purely as possible.


The TS7236’s sound great with a pair of EL3N’s, the 7236’s keep the bass under contrl from the 3N’s. Miles Davis So What sounds fab with this combo, especially when the string bass comes in at the start.
I listen mainly through Focal space 50 near fields, and this combo sounds good with those too.
The crossfeed on Euforia works well with the T1 gen 2’s, I play with it on & off.


----------



## Oskari (Apr 24, 2018)

_Kim Wilde: You Came_


----------



## Oskari (Apr 25, 2018)

_Nena & Kim Wilde: Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann_


----------



## Oskari

_Nena: 99 Luftballons_


----------



## Scutey

Oskari said:


> _Kim Wilde: You Came_



Now that's a blast from the past!.


----------



## Scutey

Oskari said:


> _Nena: 99 Luftballons_



And this one too!.


----------



## OctavianH

After 2 weeks with Psvane + 5998 I have decided to give a new try to this combo, this time with socket savers. What to say, now I do not hear crackling or anything, so I guess I will leave these to cook a few days then make an assessment.


----------



## Oskari

Scutey said:


> Now that's a blast from the past!.





Scutey said:


> And this one too!.



Yep! They popped up on youtube.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> After 2 weeks with Psvane + 5998 I have decided to give a new try to this combo, this time with socket savers. What to say, now I do not hear crackling or anything, so I guess I will leave these to cook a few days then make an assessment.


That's a combination I have not tried yet, I'll have to give it a try, so far I've only been using 5998 with my Psvanes but the combo I always go back to is EL12N for powers and EL3N for drivers, and it runs cool too.


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> That's a combination I have not tried yet, I'll have to give it a try, so far I've only been using 5998 with my Psvanes but the combo I always go back to is EL12N for powers and EL3N for drivers, and it runs cool too.



I heard so many times about this combo, that I have decided to try it this evening. But the only thing which scares me is that red paint of the EL3Ns. Last time I used them it started to fall and I had to make a complete cleanup of the desk/Elise to get rid of small red pieces from it. Why the heck they painted them like this?


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I heard so many times about this combo, that I have decided to try it this evening. But the only thing which scares me is that red paint of the EL3Ns. Last time I used them it started to fall and I had to make a complete cleanup of the desk/Elise to get rid of small red pieces from it. Why the heck they painted them like this?


Not sure why they do it, I had the same problem with my first pair, however I did buy a second pair and they were fine, the only explanation I can come up with is possibly something to do with insulation?, probably wrong though!.


----------



## OctavianH

Where have you ordered from? Mine are from Acoustic Dimension:
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/
Anyway, I will try them and if the combo fits my expectations I will decide to order a new pair, they are quite cheap compared to their reputation.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Where have you ordered from? Mine are from Acoustic Dimension:
> http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/
> Anyway, I will try them and if the combo fits my expectations I will decide to order a new pair, they are quite cheap compared to their reputation.


Yes I bought mine from the same place, I also managed to get a NOS pair from eBay and they have a different coating on them.


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 26, 2018)

The others from ebay are similar soundwise? Maybe I will try the other coating to avoid this red paint problem.

Later edit:

I checked on ebay.co.uk and found some EL3N in Spain, at double price than Audio Dimension, which look like this:






These at the first look seem different coated BUT if you look closely you observe that they have the red paint removed. In this case, I guess, I might solve my problem by doing the same. I hope this is not affecting the tube in any way. I do not really know the purpose of the red coating.
Can you show me a picture of your pair which you have bought from ebay? Just to have an ideea how those look like. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> The others from ebay are similar soundwise? Maybe I will try the other coating to avoid this red paint problem.


The sound is identical, they are Philips Miniwat but I think earlier production, they do have the Philips name on the other side, however they were a one off purchase, I have the EL3N as a saved search on my eBay account and they do sometime come up at a similar or slightly cheaper to Acoustic Dimensions, here's a pic.


----------



## Scutey

OH this evening I will take a pic of the EL3N of different brands I have managed to pick up off eBay.


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 26, 2018)

Thanks @Scutey for your time to help me learn better what EL3N types are available.

In the meantime I have done what I said: tried Philips Miniwatt EL3N again with RSD EL12N. Indeed a very nice combo, impressive and much above my expectations.






But after some time and some different tracks I use as a benchmark, I felt that I miss the punchy bass and overall sound of 5998. So I tried also that combo.






And now, guess what? It blown me away. This combination is absolutely fabulous. The EL3N as drivers are killing the Psvanes while the 5998 add exactly the quantity of bass and warmness I even wanted. This combo is what I was looking for.
So, after 2 months I found out what UntilThen was explaining so clear here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782754/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread/6000#post_12235306
It was all in front of my eyes and still, I had to look 2 months and half for it.
This combination reminds me of the enthusiasm I had when I discovered my all time favourite Voskhod 6ZH1P-EV + 6N6P-IR on Littledot some time ago. I tried almost everything else and could not find a better match for my taste. Until now.
For me this is the best combination on almost all of the albums I listen, a killer combination for rock music. Extremely heavy and fast but it sounds exceptional also on Synthpop like Depeche Mode.
I will continue to observe it, but I have the feeling that this will be my "endgame". My quest is over.

Last question:

Who can help me understand the manufacturing date based on this inscription? Looks like MS12 A2E.


----------



## hypnos1 (Apr 26, 2018)

Hi @OctavianH

Glad you like the EL3N...when I first adapted and tested this tube I knew straight away this was something special - even after the much more expensive ECC31 (basically the famous ECC32/CV181, but with a common cathode). Even Glenn, of Glenn amps was mightily impressed with this tube...so much so he made (and still makes) an amp specially designed around this driver!
They can still be acquired NOS at a reasonable price, and are usually available on ebay quite regularly, for 'little' money...but unused NOS tubes are recommended - especially if they top one's list!
And the red coating - likes and dislikes! - can be removed easily with_ careful_ scraping.

All EL3Ns were made by the Philips group, so different colours on them shouldn't make much difference to sound reproduction...notwithstanding the occasional slight difference between factories lol!...ENJOY!...CJ

ps. It appears those adapters can sometimes  be a little 'temperamental' if too many insertions and removals are made...so please be careful!


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Thanks @Scutey for your time to help me learn better what EL3N types are available.
> 
> In the meantime I have done what I said: tried Philips Miniwatt EL3N again with RSD EL12N. Indeed a very nice combo, impressive and much above my expectations.
> 
> ...


Hi Scutey,

Re the EL3N tube designation I can decipher most of the information on the tube:
MS is Philips internal designation for EL3N.
12 - I don't know (Oskari is our resident expert)
A indicates the factory; in this case Wiener Radio Werke (WIRAG) in Vienna, Austria
2 indicates the year - most likely 1962
E indicates the month. Using my fingers I determined that it stands for May.
So this is an EL3N tube made by the Philips subsidiary WIRAG, Vienna, Austria,  in May, 1962.
The red paint I think is only there for cosmetic purposes - it looks nice and was advertised as the Red Series tubes. No doubt inspired by the Vienna Tyrolean Marching Band:


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Thanks @Scutey for your time to help me learn better what EL3N types are available.
> 
> In the meantime I have done what I said: tried Philips Miniwatt EL3N again with RSD EL12N. Indeed a very nice combo, impressive and much above my expectations.
> 
> ...


Great to hear your enjoying the EL3N OH!, as you're finding out it really is a special tube, when I first posted on this thread @hypnos1 recommended the EL3N to me so promptly bought a pair and instantly loved them, I've tried many different tubes since but always go back to it, as far as drivers are concerned this is my endgame.

One other thing I've ordered a second pair of EL3N adapters to try as a quad, I believe @mordy  and @UntilThen discovered this setup and raved about it, another possible "endgame"?, who knows!.

Also here's a pic of the EL3N's I've managed to pick up on eBay, all cost the same, or slightly less than Acoustic Dimensions, the top two pair in the pic were NOS, the Adzam are just rebranded Mazda, the bottom two were bought separately but still sound great.


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi Scutey,
> 
> Re the EL3N tube designation I can decipher most of the information on the tube:
> MS is Philips internal designation for EL3N.
> ...


Hi mordy,

That's impressive knowledge thanks for the info!, i'm sure @OctavianH will be pleased too.

On the pic i've been to Austria several times and the Austrian marching bands cut quite an impressive sight although I'm not tempted to try the leather shorts!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Hi mordy,
> 
> That's impressive knowledge thanks for the info!, i'm sure @OctavianH will be pleased too.
> 
> On the pic i've been to Austria several times and the Austrian marching bands cut quite an impressive sight although I'm not tempted to try the leather shorts!.


Hi Scutey and Octavian,
Since you have the EL3N adapters, you could try a close cousin to the EL12, namely the EL6 (6.3V, 1.3A):




Just be aware that they are rarer than hens teeth! 
(There are actually two for sale now on eBAY, one in Spain and one in Albania.)


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi Scutey and Octavian,
> Since you have the EL3N adapters, you could try a close cousin to the EL12, namely the EL6 (6.3V, 1.3A):
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recommendation mordy, just found them, do they have a similar sound signature to the EL3N?.


----------



## whirlwind (Apr 26, 2018)

Hey guys...I would not remove the red paint from the EL3N tubes.

I think the red skirting is conductive and is hooked to the cathode. This makes a shield that is brought to near ground potential
Through the cathode resistor and capacitor.

At the very bottom of the tube that is painted red, closest to the base, there is a small wire that wraps around the base of the tube and is connected to the tube.

It is right where the glass and the base meet.


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> Who can help me understand the manufacturing date based on this inscription? Looks like MS12 A2E.





mordy said:


> Re the EL3N tube designation I can decipher most of the information on the tube:
> MS is Philips internal designation for EL3N.
> 12 - I don't know (Oskari is our resident expert)
> A indicates the factory; in this case Wiener Radio Werke (WIRAG) in Vienna, Austria
> ...



That code is a bit of an anomaly. It was discussed here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-293
Btw, I'd guess 1962, too.


----------



## UntilThen

Glad you're loving the EL3N guys.  

My next foray into EL3N will be with a Glenn EL3N custom build amp.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Thanks for the recommendation mordy, just found them, do they have a similar sound signature to the EL3N?.


Hi Scutey,
I have a couple of used EL6 tubes. One is a Philips, another a Valvo and a third I think is a Tungsram. Had a lot of problems with the EL12 tubes (not EL12N) and as I remember these sounded like polite EL12 tubes without the lack of reliability of the EL12 tubes.
Don't know if it is warranted to get them if you have EL12 Spezial (I do not have these) and EL12N - did not hear about problems with these EL12 variants. Besides, the EL6 are very hard to find and bound to be expensive NOS.


----------



## OctavianH (Apr 27, 2018)

@Oskari @mordy @whirlwind Many thanks for helping me decipher the code. I know that 90% of the information was already discussed, but it is very hard to find all of it in this huge amount of posts. And I will not remove the red paint, very interesting remark about it. I never heard about tube paint which is hooked to the cathode...

@Scutey I am very interested in your findings related to double EL3N adapters. But according to what I have seen on ebay, for example this adapter, I think this one can be used on Elise only on the power sockets which have a bigger distance between them than the driver sockets:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...639044?hash=item2ca65c7884:g:-W4AAOSw5IJWggQB
So I guess you can only try the scenario with 4 EL3N as power tubes. This might be nice, but for me, since I got some addition to the punchy bass of 5998, might be a "hit and miss". Anyway, please share your findings with us and maybe also a picture with those adapters mounted on Elise.

PS. What price has that EL3N custom amp from Glenn? (just for curiosity)


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Anyway, please share your findings with us and maybe also a picture with those adapters mounted on Elise.



Hi Octav, I've many posts of 6 x EL3Ns on this thread. This link shows my first post of it.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-483#post-12293694


----------



## UntilThen

I was particularly fond on this photo.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-844#post-12742364


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I was particularly fond on this photo.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-844#post-12742364



Impressive. At the moment I am in the 2nd session of EL3N + 5998 and the impression is the same as yesterday: very good combination. My rule is, if 3 sessions provide the same impression you are on the right track, but the problem is that these EL3N were NOS and have only 9 hrs on them. So maybe my position is not final. However, I like them and I will order another 6 pieces to be sure I have a stockpile full of them. And if I do that, I might order also the adapters to try your setup. Your T1 are 1st gen? Did you had the chance of comparing the 6 EL3N with my setup and can tell me the differences?


----------



## UntilThen

My T1 was Gen 1. I've since sold it. I'm using a HD800 now together with the headphones in my signatures.

I'm intimately familiar with EL3N and 5998. That lead me to write this review.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-401#post-12235306

6 x EL3N has a wider soundstage. Is more warm and lush and more textured than EL3N and 5998.


----------



## OctavianH

Ok Mr. UntilThen, I will try this combo of 6 EL3N. You made me curious


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> @Oskari @mordy @whirlwind Many thanks for helping me decipher the code. I know that 90% of the information was already discussed, but it is very hard to find all of it in this huge amount of posts. And I will not remove the red paint, very interesting remark about it. I never heard about tube paint which is hooked to the cathode...
> 
> @Scutey I am very interested in your findings related to double EL3N adapters. But according to what I have seen on ebay, for example this adapter, I think this one can be used on Elise only on the power sockets which have a bigger distance between them than the driver sockets:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...639044?hash=item2ca65c7884:g:-W4AAOSw5IJWggQB
> ...


----------



## Scutey

Hi OH my fault, I meant 4 EL3N in total, by that I mean 2 as power and 2 as driver, the 2 extra adapters are on their way, looking forward to giving them a go, I've just read your comments so you're interested in trying x4 EL3N as powers?, that will be my next step so if you get their before me I will be interested in what you think, I believe @mordy and @UntilThen pioneered this combo so thanks to them we can try it for ourselves but I will let you know what x2 x2 EL3N sound like.

On another note I've also just ordered some 6BL7 to try as powers, again @mordy the inspiration for this purchase, really looking forward to giving them a go.

BTW OH if you are interested their are some NOS EL3N up for auction on eBay at the mo, I've already purchased 1 pair from this guy and they were exactly as described, here's the link.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-EL3N-...349662?hash=item590b47e21e:g:HAIAAOSwm3Ba2bFH


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Ok Mr. UntilThen, I will try this combo of 6 EL3N. You made me curious



I sold my 'renewed' Elise to @Rossliew  including all the EL3N tubes, single and double adapters. He seems to like the 6 EL3N setup. I'm sure he will chime in here and let you know how it sounds.

As much as I felt that the 6 EL3N on Elise is warm and lush and this does suit some setup that is bright, I felt that Glenn's EL3N might have hit it on the head. From all accounts, I heard that it's more neutral and transparent and sounded like the fame 45 amp. Glenn's design uses Lundahl transformers output. It's a beautiful looking amp. I intend to be part of Glenn's EL3N journey.


----------



## UntilThen (Apr 27, 2018)

Scutey said:


> I believe @mordy and @UntilThen pioneered this combo



I started this 4 x EL3N and 6 x EL3N experiment. I even consulted Lukasz on the use of 6 x EL3N in Elise. He didn't give his official approval but did say that that could work. I remember sending him the photo of 6 x EL3N and he goes 'wow'.

For the record, this is how EL3N started in Elise.

We were at that time very keen on a Mazda 6N7G tube which I still have a pair. That sounded very good as drivers on Elise but there's hardly any tubes on ebay. So I started searching and came upon a Mazda EL3N which had red paint on it and it looks beautiful. I showed the picture on Elise thread and jokingly told Hypnos1 to get it to work on Elise. Surprisingly Hypnos1 took up on my urging and adapted it to work as drivers on Elise - and love it ! So credit goes to Hypnos for the EL3N on Elise. He pioneered it.

I then started using the EL3N as both drivers and power tubes in 4 and 6 configuration. I felt 4 hasn't got enough oomph for certain headphones but 6 has lots of it. Even drove my HiFiman HE560 planar magnetic well. 4 didn't but 4 will work with HD650 and it's not a bad tone at all. Looks nice.


----------



## UntilThen

This is how 4 EL3N looks like. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-452#post-12266271

On another note. Elise was design to work with 6sn7 and 6as7. It was never design to work with EL3N and from all my conversation with Lukasz, he has stressed that. 

You will note that in my later part of owning Elise, I went back to the recommended tubes of 6sn7 and 6as7, especially after I had Elise completely renewed back at Feliks Audio. When it came back, it's as good as a new amp.


----------



## UntilThen

Scutey said:


> On another note I've also just ordered some 6BL7 to try as powers, again @mordy the inspiration for this purchase, really looking forward to giving them a go.



6BL7 sounds good but it sounded great in 6 x 6BL7 configuration in the Glenn's custom design OTL amp. It's unbelievably great sounding. I have such an amp now. Take a look at the Glenn Studio thread for more information. It's where I do all my interactions now.

Elise and Euforia sounded great as OTL amps so I've leave you folks to enjoy it.


----------



## Oskari

Scutey said:


> Also here's a pic of the EL3N's I've managed to pick up on eBay, all cost the same, or slightly less than Acoustic Dimensions, the top two pair in the pic were NOS, the Adzam are just rebranded Mazda, the bottom two were bought separately but still sound great.






Oskari said:


> Adzam was the tube brand of MBLE, a Belgian manufacturer.
> 
> Mazda was originally a GE light bulb brand. They had subsidiaries and licensees in various markets. That's why the name Mazda appears here and there, also in Belgium for MBLE's light bulbs.




The Adzam tube in your photo was likely made by _WIRAG_.

The Mazda brand in the bottom row is that of the French Mazda, _La Compagnie des Lampes_.


----------



## Scutey

UntilThen said:


> I started this 4 x EL3N and 6 x EL3N experiment. I even consulted Lukasz on the use of 6 x EL3N in Elise. He didn't give his official approval but did say that that could work. I remember sending him the photo of 6 x EL3N and he goes 'wow'.
> 
> For the record, this is how EL3N started in Elise.
> 
> ...





UntilThen said:


> This is how 4 EL3N looks like. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/page-452#post-12266271
> 
> On another note. Elise was design to work with 6sn7 and 6as7. It was never design to work with EL3N and from all my conversation with Lukasz, he has stressed that.
> 
> You will note that in my later part of owning Elise, I went back to the recommended tubes of 6sn7 and 6as7, especially after I had Elise completely renewed back at Feliks Audio. When it came back, it's as good as a new amp.





UntilThen said:


> 6BL7 sounds good but it sounded great in 6 x 6BL7 configuration in the Glenn's custom design OTL amp. It's unbelievably great sounding. I have such an amp now. Take a look at the Glenn Studio thread for more information. It's where I do all my interactions now.
> 
> Elise and Euforia sounded great as OTL amps so I've leave you folks to enjoy it.


Thanks for all the info UT, tube amps have taken me on a very enjoyable journey, the Elise is part of that journey but probably not the final destination, so I will definitely have a look at the Glenn Studio thread, cheers!.


----------



## UntilThen

Scutey said:


> Thanks for all the info UT, tube amps have taken me on a very enjoyable journey, the Elise is part of that journey but probably not the final destination, so I will definitely have a look at the Glenn Studio thread, cheers!.



My pleasure Scutey. Enjoy your journey. The music's great with tube amps.


----------



## Scutey

Oskari said:


> The Adzam tube in your photo was likely made by _WIRAG_.
> 
> The Mazda brand in the bottom row is that of the French Mazda, _La Compagnie des Lampes_.





UntilThen said:


> My pleasure Scutey. Enjoy your journey. The music's great with tube amps.


It certainly is UT, and to think just two years ago I was a solid state fan boy!. 



Oskari said:


> The Adzam tube in your photo was likely made by _WIRAG_.
> 
> The Mazda brand in the bottom row is that of the French Mazda, _La Compagnie des Lampes_.


Thanks for the info Oskari, definitely gives a better understanding of the tubes when you're looking to purchase.


----------



## Rossliew

UntilThen said:


> I sold my 'renewed' Elise to @Rossliew  including all the EL3N tubes, single and double adapters. He seems to like the 6 EL3N setup. I'm sure he will chime in here and let you know how it sounds.
> 
> As much as I felt that the 6 EL3N on Elise is warm and lush and this does suit some setup that is bright, I felt that Glenn's EL3N might have hit it on the head. From all accounts, I heard that it's more neutral and transparent and sounded like the fame 45 amp. Glenn's design uses Lundahl transformers output. It's a beautiful looking amp. I intend to be part of Glenn's EL3N journey.




Hey y’all, I really like the tone of the 6 EL3N tubes in my Elise. It’s full bodied yet doesn’t sound mushy. Prefer it over to the usual 6SN7/6as7 combo. 

@UntilThen do u reckon I could try the 4xEL3N combo using the adapters u provided with the amp? The adapters for the power tubes are to accommodate 4 x EL3N but can I just use 1 on each side?


----------



## UntilThen

Rossliew said:


> Hey y’all, I really like the tone of the 6 EL3N tubes in my Elise. It’s full bodied yet doesn’t sound mushy. Prefer it over to the usual 6SN7/6as7 combo.
> 
> @UntilThen do u reckon I could try the 4xEL3N combo using the adapters u provided with the amp? The adapters for the power tubes are to accommodate 4 x EL3N but can I just use 1 on each side?



The adapters are designed to be used for dual EL3N. I don't think it's a good idea to use a single EL3N in it.

However I still have 2 single EL3N adapters. PM your address again and I'll send it over.


----------



## Rossliew

Thanks, Matt


----------



## OctavianH

Yesterday I had a 12 hours listening session with EL3N+5998 and the impression was good. (BTW, should I make a break to avoid overheating after, let's say, 6 hours?) But after I tried several records, in FLAC format, some of them from the 80s and some newer, some of them suffering from production problems and others from the well known "compression" issues, I realized that older records which were, maybe, better produced or mastered on older equipment sounded OK but the newer ones had too much bass for my taste. I guess these new titles are mastered to sound decent on very cheap equipment, like for example, a smartphone and this is the reason the mastering is done in a different way. Anyway, we have to listen to all our titles from our collection. And now my question comes, how will sound the 6 x EL3N setup compared to the one with 5998 in terms of bass and lower frequencies? Many people here tried it with T1 1st generation which was more neutral than mine. My T1 2nd generation are somehow V-shaped.

@Scutey : Yes, I ordered 2 double adapters and another 6 pieces of EL3N. So I will be able to try the 6 x setup in 1-2 months when they will arrive. I saw the listings of ebay but I was not sure about the seller. The ones from Acoustic Dimension were 100% NOS, and I saw this when unboxing them. So I preferred the "safe" way and order from the same shop. 25EUR is a decent price for them.


----------



## attmci (Apr 28, 2018)

Rossliew said:


> Hey y’all, I really like the tone of the 6 EL3N tubes in my Elise. It’s full bodied yet doesn’t sound mushy. Prefer it over to the usual 6SN7/6as7 combo.
> 
> @UntilThen do u reckon I could try the 4xEL3N combo using the adapters u provided with the amp? The adapters for the power tubes are to accommodate 4 x EL3N but can I just use 1 on each side?


If the two tube are parallel, you can use one tube. Like Matt can use 1, 2, or three pairs of 6bx7 on his current amp.


----------



## Rossliew

attmci said:


> If the two tube is parallel, you can use one tube. Like Matt can use 1, 2, or three 6bx7 on his current amp.



Well I’m not too sure if the adapter makes it parallel...


----------



## attmci (Apr 28, 2018)

Rossliew said:


> Well I’m not too sure if the adapter makes it parallel...


You can measure it.

But be careful with the tube rolling. The amp you got, I believe, had been repaired by the manufacture........


----------



## Rossliew

Yes it was returned to the manufacturer but I suppose it was to upgrade it...


----------



## attmci

Rossliew said:


> Yes it was returned to the manufacturer but I suppose it was to upgrade it...


Repair plus upgrade according to Matt.


----------



## Rossliew

I see. Well it’s functioning well now so I have no complaints.


----------



## UntilThen

Repaired isn't quite the right word. Lukasz told me that the amp had it's internals and sockets completely replaced. In the process, they used some of the parts intended for Euforia. Hence Lukasz told me that the Elise that came back to me is somewhere between a new Elise and a Euforia.

So Ross. Enjoy the amp because it's new and an improved Elise.


----------



## Rossliew

Indeed I am. Lovely with EL3N tubes


----------



## hypnos1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Hi guys...here's one for any DIYers out there.

To avoid being accused of 'double posting', most of the current info, plus photos are over at the Euforia thread (link attached), but will also apply to Elise of course.

But basically, my love affair with EL tubes (plus insane curiosity!) have got me discovering a new tube - the* EL32/military CV1052* - which is less powerful than the EL3N/EL11, and probably a bit closer to the 6SN7 spec'n. And draws just 0.2 amp heater current...minute!...(and runs even cooler!!).

At the moment (early days, of course) it is performing to a level I cannot believe...and at *£8* for *3* *NOS* tubes, I am blown away already. So take a look, if interested...CHEERS!...CJ... Post #4378
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.831743/page-292


----------



## OctavianH

@mordy : I need an advice related to the "famous" Foton 6N8S Ribbed Anode. Is there any chance that these are the ones?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8S-6SN7-ECC32-1578-FOTON-NOS-TUBES-1953YEAR-LOT-OF-2/152643173507


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> @mordy : I need an advice related to the "famous" Foton 6N8S Ribbed Anode. Is there any chance that these are the ones?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8S-6SN7-ECC32-1578-FOTON-NOS-TUBES-1953YEAR-LOT-OF-2/152643173507


Hi O,
Hard to tell from the pictures. Instead of paying $27 for two tubes, buy from the seller that I bought from - four tubes for $33.70 including shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-4-p...var=431877643100&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Scroll down and select Ribber Anodes 1954-55
This is a reputable seller and I only have good experiences buying from him.


----------



## OctavianH

Ok, I will use your advice. Last time I checked this seller the offer was ended. But it seems I have to wait and he will post it again. At that time I messaged him and nobody answered.
I think all of the tubes manufactured in 52-55 are the same, or at least this is what I am expecting.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Ok, I will use your advice. Last time I checked this seller the offer was ended. But it seems I have to wait and he will post it again. At that time I messaged him and nobody answered.
> I think all of the tubes manufactured in 52-55 are the same, or at least this is what I am expecting.


The sellers name is Oleh Sydorov and his email info@annaborn.com


----------



## OctavianH

I ordered today and he already shipped. Very fast seller, seems very reliable. Thanks @mordy for all the help


----------



## mordy

Glad to be of help - hope you like the tubes.


----------



## Scutey

OH, I've bought Fotons from the same seller on 3 separate occasions and they are always exactly as described, you shouldn't have any problems.

On another note, these arrived today, Sylvania 6BL7.






So far very positive. Clear, detailed, lively up front sound, extended up top, powerful, detailed, articulate bass, they seem to pair particularly well with the EL3N, very enjoyable!.


----------



## OctavianH

Better than EL3N + EL12N? This is what I listen lately and you were right it sounds good.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Better than EL3N + EL12N? This is what I listen lately and you were right it sounds good.


Hi OH,

EL3N + EL12N is still my fave but EL3N + 6BL7 it is very good, not quite as sweet but still very good, perhaps a bit more aggressive, just thought I'd give it a try, one thing though 6BL7 is power socket only.


----------



## OctavianH

@Scutey It seems my Foton 6N8S will arrive soon. What Power tubes are you recommending to try first? You know my taste quite well it seems.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> @Scutey It seems my Foton 6N8S will arrive soon. What Power tubes are you recommending to try first? You know my taste quite well it seems.


Hi OH,

Both the 5998 and the 6as7g pair well, imo, with the Foton, it's a fairly neutral, transparent sounding tube so likes a warmer power tube, also they don't always sound too good right away, try and give them around 20 hours burn in before comming to a conclusion.

On another note my EL3N adapters arrived yesterday, so I  can now have +4 or +6 EL3N, will give some impressions later.

Hope you enjoy those Fotons!.


----------



## OctavianH

I will receive them next week, they are "in processing" at the Main Postal Office. Here Postal Office people are crazy and everything moves very slow. You gave me some good news, I have a lot of warm options to pair them.
Looking forward for your impressions of the 4x and 6x EL3N.


----------



## Scutey

+4 and +6 EL3N.


----------



## Scutey

Apologies for double pic!.


----------



## Oskari

pctazhp said:


> This is intended as a thread for those who are primarily interested in the 1-tube-per-socket (with or without single-tube adapters) approach to the Elise – for both current owners of the magnificent Feliks Audio Elise and those who are considering a purchase.


Let's keep this in mind. Please.


----------



## Scutey

Oskari said:


> Let's keep this in mind. Please.


Hi Oskari,

I've been regularly tube rolling in various amps for the last couple years and I'm always interested to try different combinations, this is the first time I have tried more than 1 tube per socket, after reading the reviews of +6 EL3N many months ago curiosity got the better of me!, this is not a combination that I intend to use frequently as I do not want to damage and or wear out my amp or multiple tubes in one go, so this is merely to satisfy my own curiosity. Hope this clarifies things as I'm not on here to flout the spirit of the Elise Impressions Thread.

Regards,

Scutey.


----------



## Oskari

I have no problem with that, Scutey, but this thread exists for a reason and there are other Elise threads…


----------



## OctavianH

The Foton "Ribbed Anode" 6H8C arrived today from Ukraine:






I have to say these are ugly, but let's hope the sound they produce will compensate. I've seen some measurements on them, what can you advice me about these numbers?


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> The Foton "Ribbed Anode" 6H8C arrived today from Ukraine:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I assume they are new, and yes, they just look industrial ugly, like communist worker housing lol.
But I think that you will be impressed by the sound......


----------



## OctavianH

I will try them in the next days. Scutey advised me to pair them with 5998 or warmer powers. We will see, I am really curious.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I will try them in the next days. Scutey advised me to pair them with 5998 or warmer powers. We will see, I am really curious.


Hi OH, 

Yes I pair mine with the 5998, or 6AS7G or RCA 6080, all of which sound pretty good, tomorrow I'll try them with the 6BL7 which I rather like. 

One thing though try and give them 20/30 hours of burn in before judging them, as in the first few hours they don't always sound very good, but they do improve!.


----------



## OctavianH (May 18, 2018)

Guys, I am investigating an issue with a tube combination where I observe that the Right Channel sounds somehow "muffled" compared to the left one. In order to check if the tube is the problem, I switched both power tubes and the problem moved to the other channel. Now I try to find out which one of the 2 is causing the issue. To be sure I am on the right track please confirm me that the Left and Right channel of the headphone corresponds to these tubes. Thanks!


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys...just a quick note from yours truly.

Given Elise and Euforia have the same tube configuration, I must just say that my experiments with the EL32/CV1052/VT52 tube have progressed to a stage where I can confirm this indeed a tube that warrants serious consideration by anyone interested. And if so, I have posted running updates on their development for a while now on the Euforia thread, which I shan't repeat here also.

Suffice to say that this tube has exceeded all my expectations, and surpasses IMHO even my exalted, rare mesh-plate EL3NG and Valvo EL11 - which I never believed possible! It also appears from preliminary trial that it performs equally well in the power role (when driven by the EL32 also, anyway), which again has taken me aback somewhat, and which I shall confirm in later trials...along with @connieflyer ...

So if interested, give us a look over at the Euforia thread!...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> Guys, I am investigating an issue with a tube combination where I observe that the Right Channel sounds somehow "muffled" compared to the left one. In order to check if the tube is the problem, I switched both power tubes and the problem moved to the other channel. Now I try to find out which one of the 2 is causing the issue. To be sure I am on the right track please confirm me that the Left and Right channel of the headphone corresponds to these tubes. Thanks!


I suppose removing a tube should give a definite answer.


----------



## OctavianH

After 20+ hrs of the 6x EL3N combo I realized it is too warm for me and I needed some more neutrality. So I switched to Foton "Ribber Anode" 6H8C with Tung Sol 5998 as power tube:







I have to say that the first impression is very good. These are really good drivers and quite very neutral. Thanks a lot @mordy for all your help.


----------



## UntilThen

Glad you came to this conclusion Octa. Elise sounds best with the tubes it's design for. That is 6sn7 and 6as7 / 5998. In the latter part of my Elise and Euforia ownership, I return to these tubes.

I still remember Lukasz classic statement to me regarding EL3N and EL11 / 12 in Elise. He said and to paraphase, '... no idea why others think that EL11 / 12 sound better than 6sn7 / 5998 in Elise. It is not and at least technically it shouldn't'.

I did think there are merits in those tubes and I discuss with Lukasz about developing an amp around the EL tubes. He said that is a possibility but that they were currently busy at that time producing Elise and Euforia. They have since gone on to develop a 2a3 amp for headphones it seems. I also discuss with him about whether the 2a3 amp in their range would be better than Elise for headphones. His reply was that Elise and later Euforia was their best for headphones. Guess they have a change of mind now and started to develop the 2a3 specifically for headphones.

Whatever it is, my point is that a tube will only sound it's best if the amp is specifically designed for it and FA believe that too.


----------



## OctavianH (May 23, 2018)

I fully agree with you, however, trying also different combos adds some "mistery" to our listening sessions and keeps us busy. I have to admit the EL3N tubes are very interesting and provided me a nice experience in terms of soundstage and a different approach on some well known tracks.

Regarding F.A.'s future plans, I think that some transparency would be in the benefit of both the customers and the seller. I have to admit that I have no idea about what they are currently planning for the future years, except some pictures I have seen sometime in the past of a "retro" looking amp, which I guess is the 2a3 one you have mentioned. However, that one is in a different league and will be too expensive for me, since the tube amp is only a link in the audio chain.


----------



## Scutey

@OctavianH you were right, Foton + Mullard 6080 is very good!


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again guys.

I must say my six pennyworth here regarding non-configured-for tubes...there seems to be a good bit of _mis_-information going on here.

It appears (historically) that changes of opinion only really happened after F-A gave what seems to be only minimal testing of the EL11, and 'theoretical' measurements not falling within 'normal' parameters. Also, the EL11 wasn't tested partnering other EL tubes, particularly the EL12/12 Spezial. Therefore, a full and proper trial was *not *in fact undertaken lol!
Regardless, before this, most folks agreed that the 'unconventional' tubes tried brought more to the table than configured-for ones...and so I like to think that these ears weren't therefore being clouded/misled....one should _always_ be guided by what _oneself_ hears, and try not to be influenced by other statements.

And so, as in all areas of experimentation - if one is so inclined! - one should try one's hardest to remain objective in assessment...a difficult task at the best of times, when sound/music reproduction is concerned...ie. _trust your own ears!!!
_
I myself have probably spent much more time than anyone else trialling different/unconventional tubes in both Elise and Euforia, and have lived with the EL tubes - and these amps! - _far_ longer...now about 18 months in Euforia, not to mention a good long while in Elise. And a _long_ period of time is essential for proper judgment of _any_ piece of electronic equipment, especially tubes! Not many folks, unfortunately, allow this necessary time...

I would also stress that, after CanJam London last year, it is quite clear that the boys at F-A have different preferences when it comes to sound reproduction...something that _must_ be taken into account when listening to others' impressions. After all, we each of us has our own such preferences!

And so I repeat...*trust your own ears!*...anyone else can only give an _opinion, _which can be influenced/biased for a whole range of reasons......

ps. As far as my _own_ opinion goes, my latest trials in Euforia have finally concluded that the 'unconfigured for' EL32/CV1052/VT57 outperform IMHO _any_ previously tried tube...including some top class conventional tubes. Both as driver, and now partnering the same as power...the result surpasses _any_ previous combo...configured for, or not. And does so with several extra benefits, not least of which is having the amp run very cool indeed, which can only be good for the longevity of all the electronic components. They are also the quietest tubes I have ever encountered... even with the volume knob turned to max with music paused, there is total silence...a very rare phenomenon indeed! And so you will not find a 'blacker', more silent background to the music played. IMO these tubes are in fact _more_ suited to F-A's circuits than 'proper' ones (Euforia's, at least...and no reason to think Elise is different lol)...regardless of theoretical measurements! My assessment comes after _long_ testing, and based on many such previous assessments...not to mention intimate knowledge of both these amps...(more info over at the Euforia thread). 

Whose opinions you prefer to listen to is purely your own decision of course, but _please_ try not to be influenced by what may not be _fully_ informed opinion...as usual, the predicated *YMMV* must always apply!! ...CJ


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again guys.
> 
> I must say my six pennyworth here regarding non-configured-for tubes...there seems to be a good bit of _mis_-information going on here.
> 
> ...


Hi h1,
Having followed you for a long time I can only concur with you regarding your impressions of how different tubes sound, even though I am limited to standard wires and adapters.
What is on my mind, though, is that an EL11/12/32 amp that was specifically designed for using these tubes might sound even better.....


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> Having followed you for a long time I can only concur with you regarding your impressions of how different tubes sound, even though I am limited to standard wires and adapters.
> What is on my mind, though, is that an EL11/12/32 amp that was specifically designed for using these tubes might sound even better.....



Hi mordy.

Yes indeed, theory and practice would normally dictate optimum performance is achieved by _specific_ configuration. And here lies the anomaly...why do the unconventional/non-configured for tubes we use, and have used in the past - such as the C3g, FDD20 along with the EL tubes - perform so well in Elise and Euforia, despite measurements that might indicate otherwise? And I am by no means alone in finding this to be _fact_ lol!

I suspect these tubes may well perform even better in an amp complying with recommended settings, but extensive reading of keen DIY projects has shown me that sometimes these 'recommended' settings don't actually give the _best_ results, contrary to what would normally be expected! Experimentation is almost _de rigueur_ for DIYers in this fascinating hobby, which was encouragement for my own very limited attempts at seeing just what _might_ be possible...even if against all odds, and accepted 'wisdom'. I have read quite often that it is definitely worth _trying_ unusual tubes, and judging by results, not what others say will _not_ work lol!...so long as there isn't any obvious technical reason that could possibly cause serious problems.

And so this is the reasoning behind my own experimentation with tubes...always using top flight configured-for tubes as yardstick for comparison. I do _not_ go by what others say in this area...but again, with safety always in mind. As I stressed in my previous post...*trust your own ears!!*

Fortunately, my LittleDot MKIV SE was almost as forgiving as F-A's amps in regard to tube experimentation, and set me on this (controversial) road. I had thought - nay _hoped!_ - I had reached my end-game with the EL11/12 Spezial combo in Euforia...but curiosity once again got the better of me, hence my latest exploits with the EL32/CV1052. And this time I firmly believe we have a tube that could easily have been meant specifically for Euforia's (and probably Elise's) circuit...it is _that_ good. And now, with further time on my adapted pair also as powers, they are outperforming both my mesh-plate EL11 drivers _and_ EL12 Spezial powers, which I personally found surpassed _all _others that went before, bar none. This has taken me completely by surprise, and has confirmed the suspicions I mentioned previously regarding theory and accepted wisdom not _always_ being correct lol!! But as usual, one is of course entitled to one's own opinion...I just ask that it's based on the _fullest_ facts possible, and not coloured by other factors!

Above all...ENJOY this fascinating hobby of ours...which still holds many unsolved mysteries (especially concerning these vacuum-filled glass enclosures we love so much...).

Time for zzzzzz now, so g'night all...CJ

ps Sorry for the lengthy reply...just can't master @Oskari 's skill at the pithy one lol!


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Hi mordy.
> 
> Yes indeed, theory and practice would normally dictate optimum performance is achieved by _specific_ configuration. And here lies the anomaly...why do the unconventional/non-configured for tubes we use, and have used in the past - such as the C3g, FDD20 along with the EL tubes - perform so well in Elise and Euforia, despite measurements that might indicate otherwise? And I am by no means alone in finding this to be _fact_ lol!
> 
> ...


Hi h1,
Enjoyed reading your lengthy reply - thanks.
Did you say that you tried dual EL32 tubes as powers yet? I have a hunch that such a configuration is going to sound even better....


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> ps Sorry for the lengthy reply...just can't master @Oskari 's skill at the pithy one lol!


You have a _long_ way to go.


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> You have a _long_ way to go.



And don't I know it, O, lol!! ...Ah well, it takes all sorts!!


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> Enjoyed reading your lengthy reply - thanks.
> Did you say that you tried dual EL32 tubes as powers yet? I have a hunch that such a configuration is going to sound even better....



Hi mordy. Will try to impress our friend @Oskari  with minimal reply lol!

Anyway, as a trial I hooked up 2 in parallel as powers in the right channel...and stopped immediately they powered up!! There was something not at all right, even though I tried to be as careful as possible. And as I couldn't see why this should be, I've decided to halt any further such experiment I'm afraid. Well, not _really_ afraid...when driven by the same tube there is _*no need whatsoever*_ to go multiple...the combination of 2 driving 2 is *so* good...believe me! It will however be interesting to see how they perform with low-impedance planars, which hopefully someone will find out......

BFN...time to sleep...

Was that better O?!! ......CHEERS!...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Was that better O?!! ......CHEERS!...


A bit.


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> A bit.



Will try harder next time O..._but no promises lol!_


----------



## OctavianH

Ok, so after reading all the new posts here and on the "other" thread dedicated to Euforia I decided to order 4 Marconi EL32 and 4 adapters from mrs. Xuling.







These boxes look new and it seems that they were never opened before, so this is a true "NOS". My adapters are somewhere in Frankfurt, so most probably 1-2 weeks until they will reach me. When I will receive them I will "mount" the tubes and never remove them, since I read also that removing them might damage the tube top area. Now waiting... and waiting...


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Ok, so after reading all the new posts here and on the "other" thread dedicated to Euforia I decided to order 4 Marconi EL32 and 4 adapters from mrs. Xuling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Try not to think about them O and hopefully it won't seem so long!. I also have quad of the Marconi too so I  will try them this eve, the EL32 and CV1052 are very good, I  think you will like them!.


----------



## hypnos1 (May 31, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> Ok, so after reading all the new posts here and on the "other" thread dedicated to Euforia I decided to order 4 Marconi EL32 and 4 adapters from mrs. Xuling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi OH...I'm sure you won't be disappointed...no-one else has been so far lol!  But will look forward to your own findings in the time to come (hope you don't have _too_ long a wait...).

And if you can keep to an absolute minimum the number of times you use the adapter's top connector, the better...(the best is indeed to put them on..._and keep them on!_). But for those who may be trying different versions of this tube, I really do suggest gluing down the tube's metal top connection before using it.


----------



## Oskari

_Solveigs sang_

I've posted the 1991 version of this before. This 1993 version is equally awesome.


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> _Solveigs sang_
> 
> I've posted the 1991 version of this before. This 1993 version is equally awesome.




Beautiful performance O...and beautiful performer!


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Beautiful performance O...and beautiful performer!


I cannot disagree with you, CJ.


----------



## connieflyer

Just a note to those interested in this tube, the seller has increased his price 100% recently.  He had about 60 left.  The other tube types in my testing all sound about the same so the others are good as well, and the price is less


----------



## OctavianH

I've seen that the seller created a 2nd type of adapter, gold plated, with double price:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...132756?hash=item2f1b0a73d4:g:uq0AAOSw9V5a~5~f
The first type was the simple black one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...624920?hash=item2f1ad4ed58:g:xD4AAOSwPN9a-j-g


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I've seen that the seller created a 2nd type of adapter, gold plated, with double price:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...132756?hash=item2f1b0a73d4:g:uq0AAOSw9V5a~5~f
> The first type was the simple black one:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...624920?hash=item2f1ad4ed58:g:xD4AAOSwPN9a-j-g


Yes we now have options!. Also the EL32/VT52 are just getting and better, detail and realism is incredible!


----------



## OctavianH

I am very pleased about the Foton 6H8C + Mullard 6080 but I have seen that it is not easy to find another pair on Ebay. Can anyone advise me if there is any big difference soundwise between several brands of 6080? For example this one?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Premium-...S-Thomson-csf-France-Valve-Tubes/112136749496
I would like buy another pair.


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## connieflyer (Jun 4, 2018)

Good morning O I bought a pair of those Thompson's couple years ago when I first got the Elise. Well they are okay, they do work and will get the job done they're not what I would consider a great tube. They are quite inexpensive and that's a big Plus in their favor. I was not impressed by them at all. I tried them with several different drivers and while they were like I said okay, nothing stood out, or says, oh yes I have to listen to that. Hope it helps


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## mordy (Jun 4, 2018)

OctavianH said:


> I am very pleased about the Foton 6H8C + Mullard 6080 but I have seen that it is not easy to find another pair on Ebay. Can anyone advise me if there is any big difference soundwise between several brands of 6080? For example this one?
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Premium-...S-Thomson-csf-France-Valve-Tubes/112136749496
> I would like buy another pair.


Hi O,
I am pleased to hear that you like the Fotons - one of my top favorites.
Re the 6080 tubes, I have tried a whole bunch of them (Sylvania, GE, Tung Sol, HP, Chatham, Bendix, RCA, Mullard, Philips). IMHO the best ones are the GEC 6080, but they are are quite expensive now.
If you want another pair, an inexpensive good choice is the RCA 6080 which has a very good mid bass and warm presentation. A quick check on eBay shows that you can get a pair for under $20 today.
Another choice is a tube that looks like the 6080 with similar specs - the 6AS7GA. Here the brand does not matter (RCA, GE, Sylvania, HP) - they all sound the same, so you can just shop for price. (Just saw 5 tubes labeled Motorola {look like GE} for $18).
Good luck!


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## OctavianH

Yep, I like these Fotons a lot because they are very clear and neutral. Everything sounds to me "natural", or at least this is what I think I hear. I managed to obtain 6 pieces, 4x '55 and 2 x '53 and tried them with 5998, 6H13C, EL3N, EL12N and in the end I stopped at Mullard 6080. Now I was thinking that it could be nice to have a 2nd pair of 6080 for these.
But I will decide in a few days what to order since very soon I will be able to test EL32 and who knows, maybe I will like them and switch my preferences.


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## connieflyer

I think of all the $68 that I have tried gec we're the best. They were very close to the gec 6A s7g which I like quite well. Will be selling mine off this week along with a couple of Dac s to put a little bit of money in my pocket for a future large audio purchase.


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## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Yep, I like these Fotons a lot because they are very clear and neutral. Everything sounds to me "natural", or at least this is what I think I hear. I managed to obtain 6 pieces, 4x '55 and 2 x '53 and tried them with 5998, 6H13C, EL3N, EL12N and in the end I stopped at Mullard 6080. Now I was thinking that it could be nice to have a 2nd pair of 6080 for these.
> But I will decide in a few days what to order since very soon I will be able to test EL32 and who knows, maybe I will like them and switch my preferences.





OctavianH said:


> Yep, I like these Fotons a lot because they are very clear and neutral. Everything sounds to me "natural", or at least this is what I think I hear. I managed to obtain 6 pieces, 4x '55 and 2 x '53 and tried them with 5998, 6H13C, EL3N, EL12N and in the end I stopped at Mullard 6080. Now I was thinking that it could be nice to have a 2nd pair of 6080 for these.
> But I will decide in a few days what to order since very soon I will be able to test EL32 and who knows, maybe I will like them and switch my preferences.


Looking forward to your impressions of the EL32.
And yes, when it comes to the Fotons the word natural comes to my mind as well....


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## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> Yep, I like these Fotons a lot because they are very clear and neutral. Everything sounds to me "natural", or at least this is what I think I hear. I managed to obtain 6 pieces, 4x '55 and 2 x '53 and tried them with 5998, 6H13C, EL3N, EL12N and in the end I stopped at Mullard 6080. Now I was thinking that it could be nice to have a 2nd pair of 6080 for these.
> But I will decide in a few days what to order since very soon I will be able to test EL32 and who knows, maybe I will like them and switch my preferences.



Hi OH.

Hopefully you won't need to bother with any other power tubes either...the CV1052/EL32 excels in _both_ roles!...especially one driving the other.

 But a couple of advisories (besides gluing down those metal top caps!) : 

1. I personally have found that the amp itself can take a quite a while adjusting to triode-strapped pentodes - I was once rather (unpleasantly!) surprised at the initial change from 'stock' tubes, but later _pleasantly_ so lol...

2. These EL tubes - as with all NOS especially - need long burn-in to really shine. Mine were still improving_ *well*_ after 50 hours...

So please take these factors into account...and ENJOY!...


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## OctavianH

Ok, so my experience with the EL32 started. I received today the adapters.







If anyone said that these glow nicely he has, for sure, tried other brand of this tube type. These ones seem powered off. 






I will not post any impressions because I am listening the first track and I will wait for at least 50hrs. From what I hear now they seem somehow warm and pleasant but definitely not neutral.
While the drivers are quite cold the power tubes are much hotter. But  it is normal, I guess, so no stress for that.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Ok, so my experience with the EL32 started. I received today the adapters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good to hear you finally have the adapters, hope you enjoy them!.


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## Scutey

On another note, I  also find them to be good as powers, tried them with the Psvanes and they sound very good, in fact the best I have heard them!


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## OctavianH

If they remain the same like this they are too warm for me. But I wonder if a good combo might be as power tubes for my Fotons. That can be an interesting combo. At the moment I will keep these for a time just to see how they improve.


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## Scutey

I've have tried the EL32/Fotons and it did sound quite good, although to my ears the Psvanes sounded better,more dynamic, but I will give them another try.


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## OctavianH

The Psvanes are incredible detailed and neutral, but I prefer more "mids" for rock music. They are incredible drivers for classical or other genres, but for Rock music I will always prefer a more mid forward tube. For me Fotons warmed by Mullard 6080 were the best combo. Anyway, I see that some claim "on the other side" that the Mullard ones are more neutral than these Marconi. Maybe if I will like these more after 50hrs I will order 4 more from those ones. At the moment I marked the power tubes to differentiate them from the drivers. Since all look the same and I expect that they burn in differently, I would like to know in time which were the powers and which the drivers.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> The Psvanes are incredible detailed and neutral, but I prefer more "mids" for rock music. They are incredible drivers for classical or other genres, but for Rock music I will always prefer a more mid forward tube. For me Fotons warmed by Mullard 6080 were the best combo. Anyway, I see that some claim "on the other side" that the Mullard ones are more neutral than these Marconi. Maybe if I will like these more after 50hrs I will order 4 more from those ones. At the moment I marked the power tubes to differentiate them from the drivers. Since all look the same and I expect that they burn in differently, I would like to know in time which were the powers and which the drivers.


Hi OH,
Interesting thought that you think that the same tube used as a driver or power tube will burn in differently.
To my logic it should be the same, although the tube may sound different depending which socket it is in. In some languages tube is called lampe; think of the tube as a lamp. In one fixture the light is different because it is mounted differently than in another setting.
Some people who have the luxury of two amps will just insert the tubes in one for burning in, measuring the time in hours, until the job is done. 
30-50 hours is the norm, but some tubes continue to improve over several hundred hours.


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## OctavianH

@mordy There are people here who know much more than me about this hobby, but since the temperature of a driver is much lower than of a power, and the circuitry behind might be different, I prefer to know which one of them was used as a power and as a driver. I would say it might have sense.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> The Psvanes are incredible detailed and neutral, but I prefer more "mids" for rock music. They are incredible drivers for classical or other genres, but for Rock music I will always prefer a more mid forward tube. For me Fotons warmed by Mullard 6080 were the best combo. Anyway, I see that some claim "on the other side" that the Mullard ones are more neutral than these Marconi. Maybe if I will like these more after 50hrs I will order 4 more from those ones. At the moment I marked the power tubes to differentiate them from the drivers. Since all look the same and I expect that they burn in differently, I would like to know in time which were the powers and which the drivers.


I have been using a quad of the Marconi for several days now and they are fairly warm, I did try the  Mullard CV1052 first for a couple hours, and they did sound perhaps a little more towards neutral, however i'm usually reluctant to draw a conclusion until I've heard them for a t least 20 hours, so I will give the Mullards some time this evening along with some ST VT52 that arrived today. Regarding power tubes, I usually switch around, powers and drivers when burning in, so that tubes spend equal time in the driver and power sockets.


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## hypnos1

Hi @OctavianH 

I hope you eventually find a combination that works for you, with EL32 somewhere in the mix! Still, there are plenty of tubes to choose from - there are almost _too_ many!!

But if still 'too warm' after further burn-in, whatever you do don't go for the EL3N!!


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## OctavianH

I tried 12-15hrs the 4xEL32 combo and realized it was not for me. It is somehow warm, pleasant but it does not sound natural. So I switched back the Fotons as drivers and kept only the powers in place. Now things start to come back to "normal". I will keep this combo for a while.
Question: how big is the difference between Mullards and Marconi? I read that Mullards are preferred over these ones, and some say they are more neutral, but I expect that the difference is subtle.


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## Scutey

Hi OH,

I have both the Marconi and the Mullard. The Marconi is the warmest, followed by the Mullard which is slightly more neutral, then the ST shape, which is slightly more neutral again, however as you have pointed out the differences between all of them are small at best, I must admit I did find a quad of the Marconi just a tiny bit too warm, I found best of all a combination of Mullard straight bottle and ST shape, as both power and driver, but I found all of the different types to be very good as powers.


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## OctavianH

Guys, I am interested in buying a pair of Tung Sol 7236 at a decent price. If someone is selling, drop me a PM. Thanks.


----------



## Oskari

_Leslie Dowdall: Torn Inside_


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## OctavianH (Jul 5, 2018)

I found what I was looking for somewhere in NYC:







These are looking incredible, like they were manufactured yesterday. I guess now I have all I need for a long period of time.

In the meantime I also upgraded my DAC to Chord Qutest which is better with a good margin over my previous 2Qute.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I found what I was looking for somewhere in NYC:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They look good!. Narrowly missed out on an auction for a pair a couple weeks ago so still looking.

Let us know what you think of them.

Btw how is the Qutest sounding, has it needed any burn in?.


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## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Btw how is the Qutest sounding, has it needed any burn in?.



Yes, I would say that Qutest is improving or at least changing. But I am not sure if the DAC changes in any way or my brain changes my perception about it. I never understood DAC or cable burn in, only headphone or tube.
OK, I understand that good isolated cables help in less sound degradation, the same a filtered power supply for a DAC might reduce the noise introduced by a standard power plug but that's it. I do not understand how a cable or the circuitry of a DAC (chip + what is in there) might benefit from burn-in in other way. So I am skeptical that the DAC is improving, maybe my perception and brain is aligning with the new sound signature.
What I ca say for sure is that Qutest has better detail/resolution than my previous 2Qute and the overall sound is less warm and more towards neutral/transparent, which I think it is an improvement for my line.

Sorry for off topic, regarding Tung Sol 7236 I will try them tomorrow and maybe know more about them next week.


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## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Yes, I would say that Qutest is improving or at least changing. But I am not sure if the DAC changes in any way or my brain changes my perception about it. I never understood DAC or cable burn in, only headphone or tube.
> OK, I understand that good isolated cables help in less sound degradation, the same a filtered power supply for a DAC might reduce the noise introduced by a standard power plug but that's it. I do not understand how a cable or the circuitry of a DAC (chip + what is in there) might benefit from burn-in in other way. So I am skeptical that the DAC is improving, maybe my perception and brain is aligning with the new sound signature.
> What I ca say for sure is that Qutest has better detail/resolution than my previous 2Qute and the overall sound is less warm and more towards neutral/transparent, which I think it is an improvement for my line.
> 
> Sorry for off topic, regarding Tung Sol 7236 I will try them tomorrow and maybe know more about them next week.


Hi O,
I have always been skeptical about the benefits of expensive cables. However, based on experience, I do believe that different cables can change the sound to some extent by working as tone controls. I have some 80's higher end RCA patch cords that impart a darker sound than the regular inexpensive ones I use.
I also noticed that a $10 A/C hospital grade (14GA) power cord improved the bass - maybe the thicker wire.
Regarding burn-in, I think that it is a fact that electronic equipment benefits from a certain time period of use before it reaches it's full potential.
The Elise/Euforia kept improving until stabilizing after around 150 hours. New tubes need 30-50 hours, and some much longer to reach their full potential. Therefore it makes sense to me that a DAC also needs some time to break in.
Some people report that they cannot hear any difference after use, but as far as I am concerned the break-in period is something real.


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## OctavianH

Forgot to mention that this DAC (Qutest, but valid also for 2Qute) is a pure DAC, without any amplification other features. What we see inside looks somehow like:






But anyway, you might have a point that break in might be also useful for this kind of unit.


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## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Forgot to mention that this DAC (Qutest, but valid also for 2Qute) is a pure DAC, without any amplification other features. What we see inside looks somehow like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to leave to others if microchips need break in - I was thinking mainly of larger components assembled of many parts.


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## OctavianH

I hardly believe a chip or any digital electronic equipment needs burn-in. 

Anyway, something somehow related to Elise, therefore on topic. When I replaced the 2Qute with Qutest I observed that the RCA cable I was using from the Qutest output to the Elise input was not making the expected contact on the jacks and was very easy to be removed. The connectors were not as tight as in the past, and also the isolation seemed to be a bit damaged. This cable was the one provided with iFi iDAC2 and was considered by me a decent interconnect. So I had to look to a replacement of 0.5-1m length. 
After reading and judging I decided to order a QED Profile Audio 1m:
http://www.qed.co.uk/audio_interconnects/phono_to_phono/profile_audio_cable.html
This cable was somewhere at 20EUR. Packaging was minimal but the cable was above my expectation. Very flexible and very tight connectors which you have to push with force when inserting. Regarding the sound, I think it is somehow improved on the bass area and overall fuller. What to say, if anyone is looking to a cheap but decent RCA cable, this is definitely a good budget option.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I hardly believe a chip or any digital electronic equipment needs burn-in.
> 
> Anyway, something somehow related to Elise, therefore on topic. When I replaced the 2Qute with Qutest I observed that the RCA cable I was using from the Qutest output to the Elise input was not making the expected contact on the jacks and was very easy to be removed. The connectors were not as tight as in the past, and also the isolation seemed to be a bit damaged. This cable was the one provided with iFi iDAC2 and was considered by me a decent interconnect. So I had to look to a replacement of 0.5-1m length.
> After reading and judging I decided to order a QED Profile Audio 1m:
> ...


I have to say that in the past I have been sceptical about cables, I've been using the same cheap cable for years, and as far as I was concerned it was pretty good, however after reading some reviews of the Atlas Integra cable I decided to give it a go, and after just a few short hours there was definitely a difference, and now with over 40 hours of burn in the cable has cleaned up the sound, more resolution, imaging, detail, tighter bass and a widening of the soundstage, so I am definitely a convert to better cable. That looks like a good buy, btw Octavian.


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## OctavianH (Jul 9, 2018)

Yep, it is a good one. I own also more expensive cables (in range of 50-100EUR) and I have done a comparison. Compared to the one I replaced all are better, but between them I really cannot make a difference. So I guess after you reach a certain level the improvement is minimal, even if the specs contain more "voodoo". We will see if in 40 hrs I will hear something different. I told you I am reluctant to cable burn-in.

Later edit:

I have decided to change the RCA from the other DAC to my speakers, so I odered also this ugly one:






I like that it is very flexible compared to the other ones I own which can be used without problems as a "white weapon" but it is ugly as hell. Let's hope it sounds better as it looks.
I'll try this one with the Qutest - Elise and if it sounds better than the others I'll put the other one to my speakers. Let's see.


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## hypnos1

Hi guys.

For anyone who might be interested in how F-A's new flagship amp is progressing, Lukasz has released a photo of its rear at least...hope we'll get a fuller picture soon...  :  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.831743/page-316


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I have decided to change the RCA from the other DAC to my speakers, so I odered also this ugly one:


I was going to buy the Chord cable myself but opted for the Atlas Integra cable instead, how does it sound in your system?.


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## OctavianH

In the first hours it sounded harsh, but after a few hours started to improve and now it is quite good. In the meantime I added a linear power supply for the DAC which improved also the overall sound.


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## Scutey

Now that I purchased, new RCA Atlas Integra cable, Beyer T.2 and a Chord 2Qute, along with the Elise, my sound system has never sounded so detailed, dynamic and musical, amazing what £1400 can do!


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## connieflyer

Well all you have to do now is upgrade to an Euforia!


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## OctavianH

An interesting question would be: what is the future of Elise and Euforia products? We will see an upgraded version in 2019 or F.A. will release another amp and these will remain at this stand? 
And at which price point? This is the question which comes to my mind when thinking about an upgrade.


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## Scutey

connieflyer said:


> Well all you have to do now is upgrade to an Euforia!


Yes I guess I have!, when you spend so much you wonder if it was such a good idea, then you listen to your music and you forget about the price!.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> An interesting question would be: what is the future of Elise and Euforia products? We will see an upgraded version in 2019 or F.A. will release another amp and these will remain at this stand?
> And at which price point? This is the question which comes to my mind when thinking about an upgrade.


Well of course we have the new F A 2a3 coming soon, whether that will be it for 2019, who knows?, apart from maybe h1!, perhaps it depends on the continued popularity of the Elise/Euforia as to if their will be more new products or may be mild upgrades of the aforementioned amps.


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## connieflyer (Jul 25, 2018)

Over all these many years, it has always been the same thing. Do I stay at the level I am at or do I reach for something a little bit better. And if I go for the new amp or a better amp how long will it be before an even better one comes along. It's the way life is. But having use of the Elise for a year, and upgrading to the Euforia, the upgrade was well worth the price. It is a much better amp and a much better sounding amp especially with the new tubes that have been found that work with this amplifier. But I know that money will usually be a large consideration and am I really happy at this level, and if you are that's no problem. Enjoyment of the music is the main and primary function of spending all this money on the equipment. It's not attaining the newest latest toy, but expanding your musical Horizon through auditory pleasure and satisfaction. Of course that's just my view


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## mordy

OctavianH said:


> An interesting question would be: what is the future of Elise and Euforia products? We will see an upgraded version in 2019 or F.A. will release another amp and these will remain at this stand?
> And at which price point? This is the question which comes to my mind when thinking about an upgrade.


Hi Octavian,
I have both the Elise and the Euforia. What bothers me the most about an upgrade is the FA has literally doubled their prices, and I don't feel that they are competitive in their price range.
Regarding an upgrade it would be logical to look for other brands that offer more for less money.
I recently bought a new amp and I feel that it is superior to the Euforia for considerably less money.


----------



## OctavianH

connieflyer said:


> Over all these many years, it has always been the same thing. Do I stay at the level I am at or do I reach for something a little bit better. And if I go for the new amp or a better amp how long will it be before an even better one comes along. It's the way life is. But having use of the Elise for a year, and upgrading to the Euforia, the upgrade was well worth the price. It is a much better amp and a much better sounding amp especially with the new tubes that have been found that work with this amplifier. But I know that money will usually be a large consideration and am I really happy at this level, and if you are that's no problem. Enjoyment of the music is the main and primary function of spending all this money on the equipment. It's not attaining the newest latest toy, but expanding your musical Horizon through auditory pleasure and satisfaction. Of course that's just my view



I agree and I cannot say it better. I always try to find an equilibrium between enjoyment and shopping. I guess I will keep Elise until next year and see in 2019 if I will upgrade it or build me a new gaming rig. Because these are my future hobby projects at the moment. Looking about Intel's progress with 10nm chips and NVIDIAs delays in releasing the new architecture I will, most probably check what F.A is offering in the Euforia line or what prices are on the 2nd hand market. Then we will see. Euforia seems a good option to use my existing tube collection, even if the price is quite high at the moment.
It would be nice to see some picture with your new toys, even if they are not Elise related, they are still interesting stuff to see. So post your impressions and comparisons.


----------



## hypnos1

OK guys...time for a reality check here, methinks 

With regard to the pricing (and quality) of F-A's products, I believe some hard facts need to be stressed :

1. Although F-A have had to raise their prices a good bit recently, this is primarily because in the early days they were way* under*valued in the first place! - as most folks would agree.

And small, family-run businesses must shoulder far greater costs than companies who enjoy the economies of large scale production and/or very cheap labour...or even smaller 'one-man-band' outfits, with equally small production numbers - for example, at our local meets recently, there was a young electronics guy who puts together incredible SS amps using the best components available, and at a fraction of the price of any commercially available unit of the same standard. It would be neither fair nor reasonable for me to make any such comparison between these and more commercially-oriented offerings...and I wouldn't even want to try.

2. I have yet to see any proper _independent_, objective reviews comparing F-A's products with headphone amps in the same price category...and I personally doubt very much that there are many of the same quality as either Elise or Euforia that "offer more for less money"...from makers of realistic unit numbers. Those independent reviews that do exist of F-A's amps come out with mostly very positive results, and are equally impressed.

I myself think Feliks-Audio make extremely good amps and that their prices, although not cheap, still offer good value for excellent products. And how many manufacturers offer a 3 year warranty on their (tube) amps?!

Hopefully this will give a more_ balanced _view of Feliks-Audio and their products...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 26, 2018)

What I would appreciate very much on F.A's products is customization. Since all the products are home made and custom, it would be very nice to be able to:
- choose if you need pre-amp outputs
- choose to have an additional input (at least)
- choose if you want Crossfeed or not
And of course, each option should have a price.
Because I never used Elise as a pre-amp. I have for that purpose another equipment. But I have, for example, 3 DACs which sound different and I would like to connect to Elise. At this moment I have to switch all the time the inputs. The only option for me was Espressivo MK2 but that one cannot be used with the same type of tubes.
This is what I like a lot on the Chord Qutest line of products: you pay exactly for what you need: a pure DAC. If you want an amp or portability you choose Hugo 2. If you want a smaller an cheaper one you have Mojo and of couse if you win at the lottery you can try Hugo TT or even Dave.

Anyway, these are just ideas and no criticism. We discuss because we are on a ... forum.


----------



## Althalus

Hi H1

I understand you and accept it but I have one, only one, point of concern. 

The amps get better and better by small improvements . And because of thet the price increases. This is not good. 
There is a market for the original basic Elise. Some people prefer this one above the improved Elise. They can use the same tubes and have the same fun many on this forum had. And when they one they one day can affort it they can always upgrade the amp but keep playing with the same tubes. 

See it as a car, you have the same car in two versions . The basic one and the one with full options. 

Maybe time for two Elise's, same chassis, same tubes, just inside different , one improved and one Basic ( more back to the original one).

I compare it with the Glenn amp, you can buy the basic Version or a full specked version including very expensive components double (tripling) the price. 

H1, I hope you don't feel offensed , this is just as I see it. When Fa has a different view,  then I accept that.
I'm however curious how the others here see it. Is there room for two Elise's?


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> What I would appreciate very much on F.A's products is customization. Since all the products are home made and custom, it would be very nice to be able to:
> - choose if you need pre-amp outputs
> - choose to have an additional input (at least)
> - choose if you want Crossfeed or not
> ...



Hi OH.

This kind of discussion is always welcome... 'ideas' are what can hopefully indicate to F-A just where to go next. I wholeheartedly agree about having at least one more input. I'm sure most folks find the pre-amp facility very useful though - even if not straight away.

More options nearly always means greater cost overall, so standardisation is understandable IMHO. However, I personally would also love to see more options for future Elises and Euforias, even though it might sometimes mean slightly higher cost...perhaps offset to a degree by even better components/better deals from suppliers etc.?

For those who can afford it - and those who want both headphones and speakers functionality - the upcoming new flagship amp will have far more to offer. But this will indeed appeal most probably to a different market to what we ourselves have become accustomed lol!!  ...


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello H1 -

Hopefully, FA can stay away from the screaming hot power tube cathode resistors in the new design.  I do know for certain that balanced beats single ended.  
I'm sure that I will not be in the league who will be to afford the new FA offering, but hope they have learned some lessons from the Elise/Euphoria design, and will put them to good practice in the new amp.

Cheers...


----------



## hypnos1 (Jul 26, 2018)

Althalus said:


> Hi H1
> 
> I understand you and accept it but I have one, only one, point of concern.
> 
> ...



Hi A...not offended at all. You have a point that has a certain validity.

The problem is - just how many options can a company offer lol? There are those who may not wish for "full options", just _some_, for example. Normally with any product, once MK2 becomes available (with improvements that some may or may not want/feel appropriate), MK1 usually becomes obsolete....for better or worse!

For most manufacturers there is a limit therefore to 'flexibility', rather more than in Glenn's particular case - he cannot be used for comparison because, as previously mentioned (and I'm sure he would readily acknowledge) he does not, nay _cannot_, operate under the same profit imperative, or have the same overhead costs compared to a larger concern. Like the young engineer I mentioned previously, he can therefore _be_ more flexible to customer (limited numbers) requirements. But this is not the norm for amp manufacturers...you just try such requests with the likes of Schiit; Eddie Current, Woo Audio etc. Plus, what kind of response would I probably have got from any of these with my initial suggestion for a new 6SN7/6AS7G amp and subsequent Euforia lol?!...(I suspect not printable here!!!).

I suspect also this _is_ F-A's thinking behind their choices...and I for one would not want to be trying to make them, and please all requirements! 

And so it will be very interesting to see just _what_ suggestions they take on board for 2019...I don't envy them one little bit!! ...


----------



## connieflyer

I can understand not wanting to pay for the preamp outputs,  I never did use them on the Elise.  But  getting the Euforia,  I did try the outputs, and they did add that slightly warmer sound to the SS amp I was using at the time, a Haman-Kardon AVR 7200. The amp was no slouch to be sure, but it did sound quite good.  I now use an Anthem MRX 720 and it two sounds good with the tube inputs.  Don't use it this way now, as I have a ground loop, that I don't have time to track down.  Was not caused by the Euforia, but related to it.  As far as having the ability to order an amp totally custom, while a nice idea, one which I would love to have, I am not willing to pay a premium for the option to just delete those outputs.  I agree, having more inputs would be a very good idea, one which in time may come about.  Space on this chasis is at a premium so in order for more inputs, it would have to remove the output option.  Now if Feliks Audio, had enough input from potential buyers, that could be an option.  I myself would gladly trade the outputs for more inputs, but right now that is not an option.  I am very happy with the Euforia and the new amp is going to have to sell me on versatility and improvement in sound. One thing I noticed was when I went from Senn 650's to Sen 700 sound improved.  When I went up to the Senn 800 improvement was much  greater.  A real deal changer.  I also had the Beyer T1 V1 and thought those were exceptional as well, but unfortuneatly one of the drivers failed and I opted for a refund instead of repair.  All the gear in a system will have an effect on the sound and I have seen that the headphones were the best overall improvement in enjoyment for me. I will not be able to hear the new amp, just as I did not get to hear the Elise or Euforia before I purchased them, so I will be monitoring H1's evaluation when he gets the first one.  I trust his judgement and experience in the ins and outs of the amps.  He was a big mover in the development of the Elise and his conversation with Feliks Audio about possible improvements he wanted for his own Elise, lead to the Euforia.  At one time they were considering upgrading Elise that were already sold to the new standard, but there were too many changes to  just upgrade the present Elises, so they did more research and design and came up with the Euforia.  Thanks again H1. If not for your input and work on these amps, things would be quite different.  This is one of the big reasons why I will consider his evaluation of the new amp, before I consider it.  Just judging from the back panel, the new amp should have many improvements, and with a 2A3 tube setup, it should sound awesome.


----------



## hypnos1

JazzVinyl said:


> Hello H1 -
> 
> Hopefully, FA can stay away from the screaming hot power tube cathode resistors in the new design.  I do know for certain that balanced beats single ended.
> I'm sure that I will not be in the league who will be to afford the new FA offering, but hope they have learned some lessons from the Elise/Euphoria design, and will put them to good practice in the new amp.
> ...



Hi JV.

I too doubt I'll be in that league, alas. And I'm sure pop Henryk is going to town with the new design! At least I'll have the pleasure, nay privilege, of seeing just what it's capable of...not to mention its heat dissipation lol!! 

On which subject, there are surely far hotter amps out there than the Elise or Euforia...albeit with necessary fans! But this must have been taken into consideration with their design...especially subsequently. (One nice extra benefit of using the EL11/12 Spezial combo - amp gets hardly warm. And now, with the CV1052 (EL32) tubes, it's positively _cool!!_ ).


----------



## connieflyer

Agree with H1 about the lack of heat using the El tubes and now with the el32 cv1052 the amp is positively cool. Never even gets warm.  I was hoping with this that they would work as an air conditioner in this oppresive heat wave! They don't but at least they do not add to the heat!


----------



## Althalus

Hi OctavianH

What do you use as source for your dac and what connection do you use (optical/usb/coax)? 

The reason for this question is that I maybe next year want to invest in a dac. I now use a (sa)cd player as source that is connected by a cinch directly to the amp.

Do you think that I will benefit from a dac or do you think that my marantz s15s1 still doesn't need an external dac.


----------



## OctavianH

Hi @Althalus 

I use USB with a QED Reference cable and the source is my PC where I play FLAC/DSD with Foobar2000. 
It is hard to say if you need or not a DAC because I never listened to the Marantz SA-15S1. Maybe someone knows more than me to advise.


----------



## mordy

Can't remember on which forum it was discussed how many inputs the new FA amp is going to have.
However, here is an inexpensive input switchbox solution for up to four inputs that works just fine in the event you need one. It is made for AV use, but you just skip the third RCA video jack.
https://www.amazon.com/Sima-SVS-14-...8-4-fkmr1&keywords=Sima+AV+component+selector





It costs around $21. I have one such unit and it works well. I notice that there are other even cheaper switch boxes as low as $13.
https://www.amazon.com/Sima-SVS-14-...ent+selector#HLCXComparisonWidget_feature_div


----------



## OctavianH

I know these "KVM" units but I heard they influence the sound a lot, more exactly degrading it. This is why I usually avoid any interconnections between the DACs and AMP itself.


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> I know these "KVM" units but I heard they influence the sound a lot, more exactly degrading it. This is why I usually avoid any interconnections between the DACs and AMP itself.



I have to agree, OH...if one has a very good DAC and amp, anything inbetween that isn't TOP notch *must* IMHO degrade the signal...no question lol!


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Can't remember on which forum it was discussed how many inputs the new FA amp is going to have.



On the Euforia thread, mordy...and it will have three inputs - each fully balanced as well as SE. Line output will also be balanced and SE......


----------



## Scutey

If you're looking for a tube to try that won't cost too much, and gives a great sound how about the Ken Rad 6N7-VT96, picked up a pair for just 13 Euro, NOS, still in original VT96 boxes, pristine, they give a very good sound, fast and extended on top, warmish yet detailed mids and the trade mark KR bass thump, they go particularly well with 5998, along with the EL32, the best bargain I've had so far!


----------



## mordy

Nice sounding tube. I have the RCA as well, and IMHO they sound better than the K-R. Don't be afraid to make a real low ball offer on these tubes because they don't sell fast. One reason is that they have no visible tube glow and no visual appeal, and they require special adapters.
BTW, it is an interesting construction. There is no glass inside except for the bottom piece with the tube pins - everything else is all metal construction.
(I am guessing that the seller below would accept $5-6 for each of these 1942 tubes.)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Date-M...=6n7+vt-96&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313


----------



## Scutey

Thanks for the link mordy, that's certainly a very cheap tube!, unfortunately the seller doesn't post to the UK, I  might message to see if he will post to the UK, I'D certainly like to give them a try!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Thanks for the link mordy, that's certainly a very cheap tube!, unfortunately the seller doesn't post to the UK, I  might message to see if he will post to the UK, I'D certainly like to give them a try!.


Just keep on looking, there are many offers for this tube. 
Good luck!


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Thanks for the link mordy, that's certainly a very cheap tube!, unfortunately the seller doesn't post to the UK, I  might message to see if he will post to the UK, I'D certainly like to give them a try!.


error


----------



## Scutey

Found some!


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## Scutey

Hi mordy. Regarding the 6n7, would I be right in thinking, or perhaps not!, that the J A N CRC/VT 96, and the standard labelled 6n7 version are one and the same?, or are there some differences, in constriction or QC?.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Hi mordy. Regarding the 6n7, would I be right in thinking, or perhaps not!, that the J A N CRC/VT 96, and the standard labelled 6n7 version are one and the same?, or are there some differences, in constriction or QC?.


Personally I think that they are the same; the VT designation is a military one.


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Personally I think that they are the same; the VT designation is a military one.


Thanks mordy, that was my assumption


----------



## canthearyou

I haven't been to active in this thread lately. With work and now an almost 8 month old girl I don't get nearly the same amount of time to sit back and enjoy some tunes as I once did. When I do though, I am always floored by the sound of my Elise. I'm still rocking the same Psvane mk2 and JAN 5998a tubes and McIntosh MHP1000.

The sound is so clear, natural and lifelike. I'll randomly find myself smiling when a good passage comes on and just effortlessly flows to my ears.


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## Scutey

Good to hear you're still enjoying the Psavane's, OctavianH and myself Like them with the 5998, I'd certainly like to give the JAN 5998a a go but they're very hard to find, I guess I'll just have to be patent and keep looking!.


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 21, 2018)

I've just returned from holiday after 3 weeks at a considerable distance from my PC and my Audio equipment. During this time I made a small tour of Poland and visited several towns but I have not stopped in the small town where F.A. is manufacturing the amps. When I returned I listened again to my setup of Psvane CV181T2 and 5998 and the first impression was "wow". This means I've done a good job before going to holiday with my tube rolling and found a great combo.

Anyway, when travelling I realised how much I was missing some decent headphones for my phone. And I have decided also to give a chance to the wireless models, because I was a long time reluctant to them. Of course, I do not have the same sound expectations from them as from the home system. So after looking a little bit on the offers I bought some Sennheister Momentum IE BT:







So yep, there is a long way from 600Ohm to 16Ohm


----------



## Scutey

Sounds like you have found your ideal set for your Elise, myself on the other hand, I can never make my mind up what I like!, at the moment I have in RCA 6N7G and TS 5998, very nice set up, clear, detailed, fast and with lots of bass.

How did you survive going 3 weeks without your Elise, must have been terrible! lol, I can barely manage 3 days! , btw your IEM's look pretty cool.

One last thing I've been meaning to ask you, now that you've had them for awhile, how are you finding the Tung Sol 7236?, as I might try and get some this week.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Good to hear you're still enjoying the Psavane's, OctavianH and myself Like them with the 5998, I'd certainly like to give the JAN 5998a a go but they're very hard to find, I guess I'll just have to be patent and keep looking!.


I am not sure about the 5998A, but it could be that it is the same as the 6AS7GA which is not expensive or hard to find.
The 5998 is always the ST type, and the 5998A is straight glass.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Good to hear you're still enjoying the Psavane's, OctavianH and myself Like them with the 5998, I'd certainly like to give the JAN 5998a a go but they're very hard to find, I guess I'll just have to be patent and keep looking!.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-JA...704564?hash=item25ffa3a4b4:g:pzAAAOSw-PJbc3Ng
It seems to me that the GE and Sylvania 5998A are the same as the 6AS7GA tubes which are easy to find and not expensive.


----------



## Scutey

Hi mordy, I seem to remember reading several months ago that the Sylvania 5998a was different from the GE 5998a, however I  don't know how valid that is, I do have a couple pairs of 6as7ga, but if I can get a pair of Syl 5998a for a similar price to the 6as7ga, then I  might be able to find out


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Hi mordy, I seem to remember reading several months ago that the Sylvania 5998a was different from the GE 5998a, however I  don't know how valid that is, I do have a couple pairs of 6as7ga, but if I can get a pair of Syl 5998a for a similar price to the 6as7ga, then I  might be able to find out


Found a useful chart re power tubes:
5998A is a close relative to 6AS7G/6080. Many of its parameters are similar but gain is higer. Below, a list of similar tubes


6080 - low gain @ 2- great vocals, wide soundstaging
7236 - medium gain @ 4.8 - great bass, fast and dynamic.
5998A - medium gain @ 5.4 in straight bottle. Plate construction like 6AS7.
5998 - medium gain at 5, same current load as 6AS7
421A - same as 5998 but with matched plates/sections
6AS7G - low gain @ 2, the standard tube for most, plentiful
6AS7GA - low gain @ 2, like the standard 6AS7G in striaght bottle
6520 - premium 6SA7G gain @ 2, sometimes with 5998 plates
6N13S - russian 6AS7G equivalent.
ECC230 - european 6AS7G equivalent.
6528 - equiv to 5998 but very high gain at 9, twice the current load.
6336 - like 6528 but low gain at 2, still twice current load.
DO NOT TRY THE 6528/6336 in your amp - they will fry it....

Interesting to see that the 5998A has higher gain than the 6AS7/6080/6AS7GA so there is a difference, but it should not be important in the Feliks amps.


----------



## Scutey

Thanks for the info mordy, that's that question answered!, going on construction it's easy to see why they might seem to be the same, I will see if I can get a pair, then I can determine if the extra gain makes much of a difference.


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> How did you survive going 3 weeks without your Elise, must have been terrible! lol, I can barely manage 3 days! , btw your IEM's look pretty cool.
> 
> One last thing I've been meaning to ask you, now that you've had them for awhile, how are you finding the Tung Sol 7236?, as I might try and get some this week.



Well, survival was not as bad since I found a lot of nice craft beers on tap and very good restaurants. But I have to admit that in the last days I was missing my Elise and also the gaming rig.
Regarding the Tung Sol 7236 I did not had time to try them. I was so pleased about the current setup that I could not change everything. But autumn will come and I am sure I will return to my tube rolling activities and clarify the situation of the 7236.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Well, survival was not as bad since I found a lot of nice craft beers on tap and very good restaurants. But I have to admit that in the last days I was missing my Elise and also the gaming rig.
> Regarding the Tung Sol 7236 I did not had time to try them. I was so pleased about the current setup that I could not change everything. But autumn will come and I am sure I will return to my tube rolling activities and clarify the situation of the 7236.


Sounds like you had a good time, bit of a fan of craft beers myself, we have rather a  small but good beer shop here in Plymouth which sells craft beer from all over the world, usually visit once a month and stock up on a few exotic brews!.

As for the TS 7236 I have found some up for sale, and this time I'm determined not to miss out on them!


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 22, 2018)

I am a big fan of beer, but here in Brasov where I live the beer culture is not at the level I would like it to be. So there are not many places you can find craft beers on draft. Some of them can be found only bottled. And every beer drinker knows that a beer draft is much better on summer than one from a bottle. There are a few draft ones in 2-3 places but the beer offer from here cannot be compared to the one in Poland. I will see how I can to do visit also Ireland in the future because I like those Stouts they brew there. But next year I will go for sure in Hamburg, since I already bought tickets to Wacken Open Air, 30th anniversary edition.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> ECC230 - european 6AS7G equivalent.


Just FYI, about the ECC230, I wrote this a long time ago, and it still seems accurate.


Oskari said:


> The elusive ECC230. It is difficult to find even photos online but John Hupse has one (Philips). Note the AJ type code and the R factory code; i.e., according to the code lists, 6080, Mullard/Mitcham, which is exactly what The National Valve Museum shows us. ECC230 (Mullard) and 6080 are listed as equivalents in the Vademecum.
> 
> The 1958 Philips ECC230 datasheet tells us that "this type is interchangeable with type 6080" while the 1960 and 1968 datasheets just call the tube 6080. It would seem that ECC230 was Philips-speak for 6080 and that they soon reverted to 6080.
> 
> Has anybody seen ECC230s other than the Philips/Mullard 6080 kind?


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I am a big fan of beer, but here in Brasov where I live the beer culture is not at the level I would like it to be. So there are not many places you can find craft beers on draft. Some of them can be found only bottled. And every beer drinker knows that a beer draft is much better on summer than one from a bottle. There are a few draft ones in 2-3 places but the beer offer from here cannot be compared to the one in Poland. I will see how I can to do visit also Ireland in the future because I like those Stouts they brew there. But next year I will go for sure in Hamburg, since I already bought tickets to Wacken Open Air, 30th anniversary edition.


Done the tour at the Guinness brewery a couple times, well worth going, also close to where I live there is a beer festival once a year with 230 beers on tap, I go every year! .


----------



## UntilThen

7236 is really a very distant cousin of the 5998. I haven't use my 7236 for so long that I feel it might die of loneliness. Maybe I should pop it in now.


----------



## Oskari

_Sissel: Adagio_


----------



## Scutey

Another bargain gem the RCA 6N7, as per mordy's recommendation thought I'd give them a go, fantastic sound for so little money, lots of detail, warmth, extension top and bottom and wonderful warm mids, an absolute cracker, mordy, you were right again!


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Another bargain gem the RCA 6N7, as per mordy's recommendation thought I'd give them a go, fantastic sound for so little money, lots of detail, warmth, extension top and bottom and wonderful warm mids, an absolute cracker, mordy, you were right again!


Glad you like them. The ones I have are from 1942-43. There is no glass in this tube except for the bottom disc with the pins.
Since it has no visual appeal and no tube glow it sells for very little - big bang for the buck!


----------



## Scutey

Not quite sure what year mine are from, don't know how to decipher RCA's date codes but, going on the logo I assume mine are 40s as well, also I'm sure you're right about the reasons  they're not popular but when tubes sound this good why care what they look like, but I guess the up shot is that we can get them for little money!.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Not quite sure what year mine are from, don't know how to decipher RCA's date codes but, going on the logo I assume mine are 40s as well, also I'm sure you're right about the reasons  they're not popular but when tubes sound this good why care what they look like, but I guess the up shot is that we can get them for little money!.



This chart will decipher the date codes:
1936 Z 1938 T 1940 R 1942 S 1944 H 1937 U 1939 x 1941 Y 1943 K 1945 V On Government tubes, the "E" was printed separately, typically below the date code. Private-brand tubes generally used a shipping date code of two or three characters. An initial letter (A through L, including I) gives month, followed by the last digit of the year. Bulk-packed (OEM) tubes also carried an "E"; individual-packed (distributor) ones did not. Thus "55" indicates distributor shipment in Oct. 1945; "L5El indicates OEM shipment in Dec. 1945. (Note the opportunity for confusion with the nonprivate-brand tubes under the system immediately above: "HSE," say, could mean either of two dates.) 
http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf

S2  means March-April 1942.
S=1942
1=Jan Feb
2=March April
3=May June
A=July Aug
B=Sept Oct
C= Take a guess lol
What does it say on your tube?
Some tubes have the number 278. This is just a quality control number like the the Russian OTK.
Have fun!


----------



## Scutey (Sep 10, 2018)

mordy said:


> This chart will decipher the date codes:
> 1936 Z 1938 T 1940 R 1942 S 1944 H 1937 U 1939 x 1941 Y 1943 K 1945 V On Government tubes, the "E" was printed separately, typically below the date code. Private-brand tubes generally used a shipping date code of two or three characters. An initial letter (A through L, including I) gives month, followed by the last digit of the year. Bulk-packed (OEM) tubes also carried an "E"; individual-packed (distributor) ones did not. Thus "55" indicates distributor shipment in Oct. 1945; "L5El indicates OEM shipment in Dec. 1945. (Note the opportunity for confusion with the nonprivate-brand tubes under the system immediately above: "HSE," say, could mean either of two dates.)
> http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf
> 
> ...


Hi mordy, Thanks for the info, the code on my two tubes is K6E. As these are non military tubes, would I be right in thinking that my tubes are Nov 1946 ?.


----------



## mordy

Hi Scutey,
I am not positive if these tubes were made in 1946 and later - this is a question for Oskari.
Perhaps the K stands for 1943 and the 6 means the last two months Nov-Dec of the year. E means OEM equipment.
Some of the tubes I have came with the original boxes that verified the date.


----------



## Scutey

Yes it's a pity  they didn't come in the original boxes, we need a code breaker!.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> I am not positive if these tubes were made in 1946 and later - this is a question for Oskari.


Dunno. Maybe.


mordy said:


> Perhaps the K stands for 1943 and the 6 means the last two months Nov-Dec of the year. E means OEM equipment.


Yes, this seems to be the best fit.


----------



## Oskari

_Monica Czausz: J. S. Bach: Prelude and Fugue in D major, BWV 532_


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys, it's been a long time! Many twists and turns along the way, including a great stroke of luck which brought me a pair of Final's uber D8000 headphones.

In the meantime I decided to go solid-state, so I'm letting go of my small collection of tubes. Measured each and every one of them, and even paid to a professional service to double-check my own findings. If anyone in Elise / Eu_f_oria land wants to take advantage here's my ad: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-eu-6sn7-6080-el12-sold-as-lot.889555/


----------



## UntilThen

Angpsi which ss amp? 

I too have move on from Elise, Euforia. Bought and sold Ragnarok. Here's where I am at now.

Yggdrasil, Glenn OTL amp and Burson Audio Play with HD800, LCD-2f and HD650. DNA Stratus on order.


----------



## UntilThen

@angpsi here's a song to remember the good old days.


----------



## angpsi (Sep 29, 2018)

UntilThen said:


> Angpsi which ss amp?
> 
> I too have move on from Elise, Euforia. Bought and sold Ragnarok. Here's where I am at now.
> 
> Yggdrasil, Glenn OTL amp and Burson Audio Play with HD800, LCD-2f and HD650. DNA Stratus on order.


Hi UT,

Quite possibly I'll be looking at the Questyle CMA600i. I've listened to it on several occasions and even put it against similar DAC/amps such as the Mytek Brooklyn Plus, the M2Tech Young III, the Lindemann 10DSD, the Copland DAC205 and the Lab12 DAC1 and it has come consistently on top of the lot, both to my ears and to the ears of the friends who joined in this A-to-B. Also, the Questyle is the official DAC/amp of choice when Final showcases the D8000.

Honestly, I was getting out of the headphone game altogether but the D8000 came in (won them at the HiFi+ competition, if you can believe it!) and they're quite an amazing set of cans - you should really put them on your radar! Truth be told, at the moment I'm totally lacking the cash to maintain the hobby, especially at this echelon, so I've put them up for sale. But the longer I'm not getting any buyers, the more possible it looks that I'm keeping them and trying to shell out _more_ cash for a quality DAC/amp to drive them with.

But that's how the hobby seems to roll, doesn't it? 

Btw, how does the Burson Play fare against all the other great gear you carry?


----------



## UntilThen

The Questyle CMA600i retails for $1599 in this neck of the woods and no I have never heard of the Final D8000. I must be living in a monastery. That planar is from Japan?

I think luck is on your side having won the D8000. You should get a good dac / amp for it.

Speaking of which, the Burson Audio Play is good, cheap and incredible. It will go on to be a classic, just like the Breakfast Club. 
Have a look at all the glowing reviews. https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-audio-play.22702/reviews

Btw I bought it before I read the reviews. Audition it at Addicted To Audio against the Schitt Bifrost multibit and Jotunheim and prefer the Burson. Don't let the size deceive you. It outputs 2w into 16 ohms. Drives my LCD-2f like a kitten.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Honestly, I was getting out of the headphone game altogether



I could not get out of the headphone game even though I tried. I assemble up the HiFi system and got it good enough for my ears but I am just spending more time with my head-fi gear. When the DNA Stratus comes next year, I wouldn't where to put it.


----------



## canthearyou

The D8000 are the best headphone I've ever heard. And I've heard them all. It was powered from a Wells Audio Milo.


----------



## angpsi (Oct 1, 2018)

canthearyou said:


> The D8000 are the best headphone I've ever heard. And I've heard them all. It was powered from a Wells Audio Milo.


You too? Looks like a lot of people listened to the D8000 through the Milo, and everybody speaks the best about the combo! Unfortunately I don't think it's readily available in Europe and with the added cost of import charges it makes it rather prohibitive to try against the Questyle... The latter was Final's own recommendation when I asked them which amp they use/recommend with the D8000.

Apart from that, I totally agree: the D8000 are truly remarkable!


----------



## canthearyou (Oct 1, 2018)

angpsi said:


> You too? Looks like a lot of people listened to the D8000 through the Milo, and everybody speaks the best about the combo! Unfortunately I don't think it's readily available in Europe and with the added cost of import charges it makes it rather prohibitive to try against the Questyle... The latter was Final's own recommendation when I asked them which amp they use/recommend with the D8000.
> 
> Apart from that, I totally agree: the D8000 are truly remarkable!



I linked my review from the last Head-Fi meet I attended. Of course the one and only Jude attended along with a plethora of hi-end gear. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/se-michigan-meet-6-3-18-impressions-thread.881246/#post-14292461

I enjoyed the D8000 with everything that I plugged into. Some just more than others. My only gripe is the weight. If they introduced a lighter version that sounded the same I'd have them by any means possible.

BTW: it was the DAVE/Milo combo that I heard that made quite the impression.


----------



## canthearyou

I've recently listed my Elise in the classifieds. I'm looking to go on a different path.


----------



## mordy

canthearyou said:


> I've recently listed my Elise in the classifieds. I'm looking to go on a different path.


Whereto?
I am thoroughly enjoying my Glenn OTL.


----------



## canthearyou

mordy said:


> Whereto?
> I am thoroughly enjoying my Glenn OTL.


Not really sure yet.


----------



## Scutey

HI h1. feeling quite pleased with myself lol, managed to acquire 4 ST CV 1052's, boxed NOS, two clear glass, and after five nearly five months of looking two grey coated as well, should hopefully arrive by the end of the week, they may be rare as hens teeth but if you're patient and keep looking, eventually you'll be rewarded! .

On another note, at the mo I have in my Elise the coated  ST CV's and a pair of ST smoke glass EL32, and currently listening to Echoes from Pink Floyd's Meddle album, the rhythmic bass sequence in the middle of the track is absolutely pounding with these tubes in, wonderful!.


----------



## canthearyou

Just picked up the all black DT990 600ohm model. These sound amazing powered by Elise!


----------



## Scutey (Nov 20, 2018)

canthearyou said:


> Just picked up the all black DT990 600ohm model. These sound amazing powered by Elise!


Hi ch,

I have the 32 ohm version of the 990, no good with the Elise, of course, so my hp of choice is it's successor, the 1990, which sound fantastic, however I  have been  thinking of getting either the 250 or 600 version of the 990 for the Elise so I  gave the two a comparison test on my Schiit Magni 2, I  have to say I found the highs rather sharp on the 990, so my question is how do you find the highs of the 990 with the Elise?.


----------



## canthearyou (Nov 20, 2018)

Scutey said:


> Hi ch,
> 
> I have the 32 ohm version of the 990, no good with the Elise, of course, so my hp of choice is it's successor, the 1990, which sound fantastic, however I  have been  thinking of getting either the 250 or 600 version of the 990 for the Elise so I  gave the two a comparison test on my Schiit Magni 2, I  have to say I found the highs rather sharp on the 990, so my question is how do you find the highs of the 990 with the Elise?.



So far they show no signs of being overly bright. Very clear. I too have heard the 990 on SS amps and it made my ears bleed.

I got them from Massdrop for $165. Worth it IMO. Plus they look great in all black.


----------



## Oskari

_Tomas Ledin: Genom ett regnigt Europa_


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> HI h1. feeling quite pleased with myself lol, managed to acquire 4 ST CV 1052's, boxed NOS, two clear glass, and after five nearly five months of looking two grey coated as well, should hopefully arrive by the end of the week, they may be rare as hens teeth but if you're patient and keep looking, eventually you'll be rewarded! .
> 
> On another note, at the mo I have in my Elise the coated  ST CV's and a pair of ST smoke glass EL32, and currently listening to Echoes from Pink Floyd's Meddle album, the rhythmic bass sequence in the middle of the track is absolutely pounding with these tubes in, wonderful!.



Well done Scutey...you're set for life already lol! 

Bass absolutely pounding?...OMG - I give you now fair warning of what's heading your way..._*be prepared!!*_ 

And if the EL38s do for Elise what they're doing for my Euforia, I've a sneaking suspicion you'll find you have a fair few *spare* EL32s!!!


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> _Tomas Ledin: Genom ett regnigt Europa_




Hmmm, O....methinks he'll sound _really_ good on my new setup lol! ...(will get d/loading with 'Audacity' - tremendous quality, if the youtube upload is any good, that is!)...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Well done Scutey...you're set for life already lol!
> 
> Bass absolutely pounding?...OMG - I give you now fair warning of what's heading your way..._*be prepared!!*_
> 
> And if the EL38s do for Elise what they're doing for my Euforia, I've a sneaking suspicion you'll find you have a fair few *spare* EL32s!!!


That's great to hear h1, already limbering up, for that bass!.


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## hypnos1 (Dec 11, 2018)

OK guys...time to update Elise lovers on the *EL38* tube (for those who may not have been catching the excitement over at the Euforia thread).

Rather than repeat all the progress reports on trials of this amazing tube, I shall simply summarise by stating that in all the years I've been experimenting with tubes that can often surpass those properly configured for, the EL38 is proving to be *by far* the best...and in _*all*_ areas you care to mention.

This tube fills in any gap whatsoever that in previous ones - conventional or otherwise - may have been present...either empirically, or based on personal preference. Never before have I been so adamant - or sure - about any tube that can be used in either Elise or Euforia. And my own findings have been corroborated not only by @connieflyer , in the Euforia, but duplicated by @Scutey in his Elise. Plus, after about 200 hrs' use by myself - with 10+ hr sessions sometimes - the amp has still run barely warm (with four EL38s even), and shows no sign of 'discomfort' whatsoever. The exact opposite in fact...no tubes before - except the EL32 - have felt quite so at home in F-A's amp, so their safety looks very good indeed.

This tube takes our amps to a level way beyond anything previously tried..._full stop!!_ ...even with just 2 as powers (especially when driven by the EL32). With 2 also as drivers, the result is quite spectacular.
And so if anyone is interested in seeing just what their Elise is capable of, I suggest checking out the Euforia thread for further info...there's quite a bit now lol! ...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

Here's wishing all Elise lovers  *A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR!*

And hoping you all manage at least a _bit _of quality Elise listening time...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## OctavianH

Yesterday, after a few months of listening to the same combination of tubes, I felt that my CV181-T2 + 5998 were not sounding anymore as they used to. The difference was that the bass section was somehow muddy and I felt that the clarity and detail were somehow affected. I decided to wait until today and try again to see if I have the same feeling. And today I still felt that the problem was there. These tubes had somewhere at 700 hrs, so normally the burn in process was already a long time finished. Also my Beyers T1.2 have somewhere at 2000 hrs on them. Now, hard to say if these tubes really changed, the whole line evolved somehow or I am just older and crazier than in 2018. Anyway, today I decided to change them and give a chance to Foton 6H8C (the "famous" Ribbed Anode) combined with a pair of Tung Sol 7236. We will see where these will take me, at least I will have a chance to form an opinion about this pairing, since I never really tried them for real.







The first impression is good, but of course, time will tell if I am on the right track or not. So, it seems I am back on track with the nice activity of tube rolling.


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## mordy

Did you say "the nice activity of tube rolling"?




In the front is an Istok 6N3P and a pair of Siemens C3g as driver tubes; then the following power tubes: four GE 6BX7 (tubes have different labels but are all GE) and a pair of Tung Sol 5998 tubes for a total of 12.2A.
The amp is a Glenn OTL and it can handle up to 13A in any combination of tubes.


----------



## mordy

Forgot to say that you can use this amp with good results with only three tubes: A dual triode driver and a pair of power tubes. The octal front driver socket accepts 6, 12 and 25 volt tubes.


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## OctavianH

Omg, you have heavy artillery there. What to say besides: *impressive*. If it sounds as good as it looks you are somewhere in heaven or above. I will stick to Elise for a bit because I have to take care also about the below buddy and "he" is also needing a lot of attention from my side, but as soon as possible I will, most probably, jump to Euforia. Glenn OTLs are above my budget and experience, so who knows, maybe they will become an option sometimes in the future when I will be older and wiser. I only think about what combos you can make to that one...


----------



## mordy

Hi Octavian,
I own both the Elise and the Euforia. A new Euforia costs EUR 1800-2000. The Glenn OTL that I have costs around $1400 which is approximately EUR 1200.


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## OctavianH

Judging by the looks I was evaluating it somewhere at 3500-4000$. My bad.


----------



## mordy

All the Glenn amps are made to order. There are EL3N and 300B amps that are in the higher price range that you mention.


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## OctavianH

@mordy Can I find somewhere a detailed spec of the amps he is currently assembling? I just found some threads but no clean detailed info.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> All the Glenn amps are made to order.





OctavianH said:


> @mordy Can I find somewhere a detailed spec of the amps he is currently assembling? I just found some threads but no clean detailed info.


You ask him. Or in those threads.


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> You ask him. Or in those threads.



Spot on Oskari....this unashamed plugging of Glenn's amps on the *Elise* thread is fast approaching moderator intervention. We here - and over at the Euforia thread - have never intruded on Glenn's thread in this way. Please desist at once @mordy ...


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Spot on Oskari....this unashamed plugging of Glenn's amps on the *Elise* thread is fast approaching moderator intervention. We here - and over at the Euforia thread - have never intruded on Glenn's thread in this way. Please desist at once @mordy ...


Hi h1,
You are absolutely right - meant to post privately, and I will not post on this thread about the GOTL. Sorry.
Sometimes you get carried away......


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> You are absolutely right - meant to post privately, and I will not post on this thread about the GOTL. Sorry.
> Sometimes you get carried away......



Apology accepted mordy...thanks...CJ


----------



## OctavianH

After 3-4 combos I returned to the Psvanes and the 5998. What to say, when you always return to the same combo you might have one of the following 2 problems:
1) these are the best tube paring you were able to find
2) you need to order the tube types you never tried before.

I'll meditate to this dilemma during the evening while listening to some good old U.D.O.


----------



## mordy

It never ends....
If good is good, isn't better better?

But - you may reach a stage when everything sounds wonderful; nothing bothers you, and you can just enjoy listening to the music, and not the equipment.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> After 3-4 combos I returned to the Psvanes and the 5998. What to say, when you always return to the same combo you might have one of the following 2 problems:
> 1) these are the best tube paring you were able to find
> 2) you need to order the tube types you never tried before.
> 
> I'll meditate to this dilemma during the evening while listening to some good old U.D.O.


Absolutely agree with your logic, when you keep going back to the same tubes after rolling others, then you clearly use the best you have, human nature being what it is though, there is always that nagging feeling, is there better out there?, for me that question was answered thanks to the discovery of the EL38 by h1, for me at least, this is the best the Elise will ever sound.

ps great album, good pic too! .


----------



## JazzVinyl

Here is a combo in Elise, I really like:



 

Metal envelope 6N7 as drivers, EL38 as powers.  There is a beautiful velvet gloved delicacy to treble/cymbals that I am enjoying. Detail retrieval is also top notch.


----------



## Madhyamika

JazzVinyl said:


> Here is a combo in Elise, I really like:
> 
> 
> 
> Metal envelope 6N7 as drivers, EL38 as powers.  There is a beautiful velvet gloved delicacy to treble/cymbals that I am enjoying. Detail retrieval is also top notch.



I haven’t tried any of the metal envelope tubes - I’ve been too enamored of the glowing glass bottles to venture into that territory yet - but I know you and others have had good results with them and I may have to try some just out of curiosity at some point. In the meantime, I’m still very much excited about my quad of EL38s in Elise. Definitely a stellar setup in my system so far!


----------



## Scutey

Madhyamika said:


> I haven’t tried any of the metal envelope tubes - I’ve been too enamored of the glowing glass bottles to venture into that territory yet - but I know you and others have had good results with them and I may have to try some just out of curiosity at some point. In the meantime, I’m still very much excited about my quad of EL38s in Elise. Definitely a stellar setup in my system so far!


Good to hear your enjoying those EL38, If you ever want to scratch that tube rolling itch, the 6n7 is indeed very good and cheap!, I have a pair each of the Ken Rad and RCA, both are excellent, I usually pair them with TS 5998, works really well, 6n7g is also a goody.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Another stellar combination. For my gears and ears


----------



## JazzVinyl

Madhyamika said:


> I haven’t tried any of the metal envelope tubes - I’ve been too enamored of the glowing glass bottles to venture into that territory yet - but I know you and others have had good results with them and I may have to try some just out of curiosity at some point. In the meantime, I’m still very much excited about my quad of EL38s in Elise. Definitely a stellar setup in my system so far!



Yes the fact that metal envelope tubes have no glow...makes them much less expensive 

Close your eyes...the metal envelope 6N7 is a wonderful sounding tube. EL38's make for wonderful power tubes.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Scutey said:


> Good to hear your enjoying those EL38, If you ever want to scratch that tube rolling itch, the 6n7 is indeed very good and cheap!, I have a pair each of the Ken Rad and RCA, both are excellent, I usually pair them with TS 5998, works really well, 6n7g is also a goody.



I have the Ken-Rad and RCA metal envelope 6N7's - and last time I compared them, thought they sounded exactly alike, and wondered if they both were made in the same factory (one or the other, re-branded).


----------



## OctavianH

When I tried my current combo via socket savers I felt that the sound was somehow degraded. Since I am the only one complaining about this here, I start to think that maybe the root cause of the problem is on other side. Of course, the difference was subtle. So now comes my question: Are you using some special filtered power plug for the amp? For my DAC a linear power supply made a big difference but I do not think that for a tube amp this has to make a difference. But maybe I am wrong. I observed lately that my CD collection ripped to FLAC using dbpoweramp sounds better than the files I previously ripped with Exact Audio Copy or the ones downloaded from the internet. So there are many factors involved or I am older and crazier than in 2018, like I was suspecting several posts ago.


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## connieflyer

HI OctavianH I am not using anything special as far as filters or power strips with filters. My dac is a Gungnir nothing added to it, same with pc, or server. Have you tried the tubes without the socket savers? Probably not, but it is another two connections that (could) degrade sound some.  I used to use them on other amps, and had a problem with one over time.  So I stopped using them when I got the Elise, and now the Euforia.  Worth a try.  Good luck, shame you are having trouble with these tubes, on my system, they have elevated my enjoyment quite a bit.


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## connieflyer

Is anyone else having problems using these specific tubes? Would be interesting to see if there is any grouping that can be determined. Most folks are very positive with their use. If you are having problems with them please post and maybe (stress maybe!) we can help.


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## OctavianH

Hi CF,

Just to avoid confusion, my post was not related to EL38 or a tube failure. It was a general Elise question to find out if others are using some power supply filtering for the amps. The tubes are fine, they just do not sound exactly the same when I add a socket saver (octal socket) to the tube to protect Elise from overheating.
This was the reason I removed them when using my current combo (CV181 + 5998), even if everyone advised to use them as an additional protection. Since everyone uses different types of adapters here and is very confident that the sound is not affected, I was trying to see why on my setup the same tube sounds not exactly the same with or without an adapter.
I hope now my post is clear and does not let anyone into confusion.


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## mordy

In the past I used some cheap Chinese socket savers that gave me problems with bad connections and some of them introducing hum. Maybe try a higher quality socket saver if possible.
Another simple cure for heat build up is an external fan, preferably drawing air away from the amp.


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## hypnos1 (Jan 16, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> When I tried my current combo via socket savers I felt that the sound was somehow degraded. Since I am the only one complaining about this here, I start to think that maybe the root cause of the problem is on other side. Of course, the difference was subtle. So now comes my question: Are you using some special filtered power plug for the amp? For my DAC a linear power supply made a big difference but I do not think that for a tube amp this has to make a difference. But maybe I am wrong. I observed lately that my CD collection ripped to FLAC using dbpoweramp sounds better than the files I previously ripped with Exact Audio Copy or the ones downloaded from the internet. So there are many factors involved or I am older and crazier than in 2018, like I was suspecting several posts ago.



Hi OH...you probably already know what my own response will be to both socket savers in the signal path, and the quality of power supplied to ALL components in one's system lol!! 

But despite appearing hopelessly repetitious, I shall still bore people to death!! ...so...

1. *Any and every* addition to the designed signal path _*must*_ have an effect (most probably _negative_) on said signal. And although some in and of themselves may only be small, *in total* their effect can be quite substantial...especially, and obviously IMHO, if the signal is broken by something _*inferior*_ to what went before. Therefore, in the case of socket savers (and 3rd party adapters), unless really good quality materials are used they _*must*_, by definition have a negative impact. And in my own view, any system/ear that doesn't register this is, perhaps, not quite up to scratch lol?!! This is not just what logic would dictate...I myself have noticed this enough times over the years while experimenting with different qualities of _small_ amounts of wire added to the path even, let alone an adapter that uses a PCB rather than decent wire!! .

2. Others much more knowledgeable/experienced than I, and with systems way ahead of my own, will stress the vital importance of the need for as 'clean' and pure a power supply as can possibly be achieved..._*for every component within an audio setup, *_not just one or two particular items. This makes perfect sense when you realise that _sound_ is carried in our systems _purely by electricity_, and anything mildly polluting said carrier again *must* impact negatively upon a signal trying to maintain transference of some extremely delicate frequencies. And so I personally can't recommend too strongly a closer look at this aspect of one's system, if one is truly serious about achieving as high a quality sound experience as possible...(my own proof of this came first when I was recommended to use a PowerInspired Mains Regenerator, long before I upgraded to a Balanced Mains + unit. I later did a (fast) before/after experiment, and going back to a standard multi-socket strip was a very unpleasant experience indeed, albeit an interesting one...could only manage about 30 seconds before I had to pull the plug lol ..._fast!!_ ...and something I will never, ever do again...).

3. I agree with you entirely about the different quality that can ensue from 'simply' copying 0s and 1s digitally...it can be _huge_ lol! And not just because of the hardware used, but the software also... as you yourself found. Interesting you mentioned EAC vs dbpoweramp. The latter is certainly vastly better at the job of copying than Windows Media, for example, and yet the CD copies made by my Naim UnitiCore to its internal SSD drive are _far _better than those made by dbpoweramp on my (expensive!) HP laptop, thence transferred to the Naim...and the Naim uses EAC...go figure!! ...(it would appear to me that it's a case of hardware/software interaction that's more important here?).

Hopefully I haven't (once again) caused too much indigestion in my reply! ...CJ


----------



## JazzVinyl

OctavianH said:


> When I tried my current combo via socket savers I felt that the sound was somehow degraded. Since I am the only one complaining about this here, I start to think that maybe the root cause of the problem is on other side. Of course, the difference was subtle. So now comes my question: Are you using some special filtered power plug for the amp? For my DAC a linear power supply made a big difference but I do not think that for a tube amp this has to make a difference. But maybe I am wrong. I observed lately that my CD collection ripped to FLAC using dbpoweramp sounds better than the files I previously ripped with Exact Audio Copy or the ones downloaded from the internet. So there are many factors involved or I am older and crazier than in 2018, like I was suspecting several posts ago.



I vote a “year older and nuttier” 

Agree that socket savers are a great boon to heat reduction in this amp, and you should use them.  Mordy is right, they are cheap enough, buy a couple more and see if problems are solved.  

I also consider myself lucky, there is absolutely nothing ‘out of spec’ or wrong with the power supplied to my home.  It does not need giant cables, immense filtering or conditioning of any kind.  Hope yours is perfect, too.  

Cheers...!!!


----------



## OctavianH

First of all, thanks everyone for feedback. I would say that a big factor here is also the environment in which each one of us is living. As far as I've seen a big percentage of the users of these forums are living in US or UK and most probabily, many of them in single houses and not crowded apartment areas like myself. So most probably this is also a factor and also some of us are using 220V and others 110V and so on. I live in an apartment in a urban area and the headphone audio line is plugged in the same power supply with my PC and other desk equipment. You can see below what I am talking about (and please ignore the dust, it is located behind a piece of furniture and I do not have access to it very easily):






5 years ago when I moved to this apartment I had the chance of completely reorganize it, but I was not smart enough to make a separate power circuit for audio. So now it is not very easy to separate them. 
More than this, for the DAC I already use a LPS which improved a lot the quality of the sound, but for an amp I guess one has to use a quite powerful one (maybe at least 6.5A x 220V?). I would say the biggest impact on the sound has to be on the DAC side and on the USB connection to the PC (but here normally Chord Qutest has galvanic isolation on the USB input and my cable is a decent one - QED Reference USB A-B) and a much smaller influence on high power devices like the tube amp.

Regarding the dbpoweramp and EAC, what to say besides that most probably the Naim UnityCore are making some DSP enhancing there. For me a digital transmission and encoding should, normally, sound exactly the same regardless of the software used, so I have no clear explanation of the reason I feel that dbpoweramp encoded better my CDs than the EAC. The device I used was a cheap Samsung DVD-RW which is mounted on my PC, so no fancy stuff, just a basic PC component which, for me, has to be the same as a more expenssive one for a simple reading operation on a digital stream of 1s and 0s... so maybe mr. Jazz is right that my age started to affect my perception LOL


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> Regarding the dbpoweramp and EAC, what to say besides that most probably the Naim UnityCore are making some DSP enhancing there. For me a digital transmission and encoding should, normally, sound exactly the same regardless of the software used, so I have no clear explanation of the reason I feel that dbpoweramp encoded better my CDs than the EAC. The device I used was a cheap Samsung DVD-RW which is mounted on my PC, so no fancy stuff, just a basic PC component which, for me, has to be the same as a more expenssive one for a simple reading operation on a digital stream of 1s and 0s... so maybe mr. Jazz is right that my age started to affect my perception LOL


I'm in the bit-perfect is bit-perfect camp. More bit-perfect does not compute.


----------



## hypnos1

Oskari said:


> I'm in the bit-perfect is bit-perfect camp. More bit-perfect does not compute.



Hi O...this is precisely what has had me scratching my head for a very long while now - copying digital 0s and 1s and then transferring them should, _in theory, _give _perfect_ reproduction. This would appear to undoubtedly be the case with 'ordinary' data, but that which carries _sound_ in digital code - for some really strange reason! - can, according to some, be somehow 'affected' in a way that impinges on the final sound reproduction...albeit only very subtly!

Pure logic would say this is nonsense...and my life is ruled - most of the time! - by such logic (sad to say lol! ). But the experience I mentioned in my recent post has confused me no end - ie. CD tracks ripped by Windows Media program, thence transferred via USB stick to my Naim server/player do _not_ sound as good as the same tracks ripped by the Naim to its internal SSD drive. So _something_ has happened en route, and I wish someone could give me a definitive answer...it's driving me crazy(ier!)...HELP!!......CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Hi O...this is precisely what has had me scratching my head for a very long while now - copying digital 0s and 1s and then transferring them should, _in theory, _give _perfect_ reproduction. This would appear to undoubtedly be the case with 'ordinary' data, but that which carries _sound_ in digital code - for some really strange reason! - can, according to some, be somehow 'affected' in a way that impinges on the final sound reproduction...albeit only very subtly!
> 
> Pure logic would say this is nonsense...and my life is ruled - most of the time! - by such logic (sad to say lol! ). But the experience I mentioned in my recent post has confused me no end - ie. CD tracks ripped by Windows Media program, thence transferred via USB stick to my Naim server/player do _not_ sound as good as the same tracks ripped by the Naim to its internal SSD drive. So _something_ has happened en route, and I wish someone could give me a definitive answer...it's driving me crazy(ier!)...HELP!!......CHEERS!...CJ


Yep, it's nonsense. Otherwise your external hard drive (etc.) wouldn't work. But not all rippers are created equal, especially with CDs in bad condition. Don't know about Windows Media.


----------



## OctavianH

After I read all the discussions on the other thread, I decided to give a chance to a power conditioner, just to see with my own ears what is all about. Since I need only 2 outputs I decided to try a compact model with a lower price than the big ones, more exactly this one, which was available here in the proximity (in Germany):
https://www.furmanpower.com/product/10a-two-outlet-power-conditioner-export-AC-210A E
I plan to compare Elise connected to this one and also to the mains and see if something changes. In the future I might add also a transport or something else to the second output. The PC will not be connected to it since 10A are not enough for both of them but the Qutest has galvanic USB isolation so I expect it has to be fine. We will hear when I will receive it and try it. In the meantime if anyone has any advice for me regarding these Furman filters, let me know.


----------



## connieflyer

Hello O, I am using the Furman Elite 15, and I have a pc,an nas, a gumby, logitech external powered speakers, and a network streamer, and the Euforia all turned on at the same time, which of course normally I would not have on, but to see what I am drawing. The Furman is showing 122 volts, and 2.1 amps current draw.  So you should not have a problem with your pc connected.  Does not show any strain or undo problems. I really noticed a change for the better, especially when using PlayFi from the nas to my Anthem receiver. It never sounded as good as I thought it should, after the filter network, the Anthem sounds great, just as good as if using the oppo to play music. This is what I am hearing. Hope you get a good experience as well.


----------



## connieflyer

Should qualify readings, this is using the front panel monitoring voltage and current l.e.d. on the Furman.  This is the unit here....   https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WUZPD0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1  the nas is powered on all the time as is the gumby.


----------



## connieflyer

Forgot to add the network switch as well to the above equipment.


----------



## OctavianH (Jan 23, 2019)

connieflyer said:


> Hello O, I am using the Furman Elite 15, and I have a pc,an nas, a gumby, logitech external powered speakers, and a network streamer, and the Euforia all turned on at the same time, which of course normally I would not have on, but to see what I am drawing. The Furman is showing 122 volts, and 2.1 amps current draw.  So you should not have a problem with your pc connected.  Does not show any strain or undo problems. I really noticed a change for the better, especially when using PlayFi from the nas to my Anthem receiver. It never sounded as good as I thought it should, after the filter network, the Anthem sounds great, just as good as if using the oppo to play music. This is what I am hearing. Hope you get a good experience as well.



Hello cf,

Thanks for the advice but my PC is a gaming one and sometimes (when playing city builders for example) I use it in parallel with Elise. Last time I checked it was somewhere at 600W. Now, my basic math tells me that if I have 6xxW on a 220V main power this leads me somewhere at 3A. Elise has drivers of 0.6A and powers of 2.4A which lead me to somewhere around max 6A, which, of course, at the volume level I am listening are not reached. Anyway I will double think if I will connect the PC to the Furman since the only common cable is the USB one connected to a galvanic isolated input on the DAC side. The DAC has its own LPS and now Elise will have, when the unit will arive, its own power conditioner.


----------



## Madhyamika (Jan 24, 2019)

I’ll be interested to hear of your impressions of the smaller power conditioner, Octavian. I’ve been considering power conditioning options myself  but am going to need to wait a while for my finances to recover from last year’s amp shopping


----------



## Madhyamika

Hello all - I have a “big” question and I’m hoping to tap into the experience and knowledge of the remarkable contributors to this thread to see if I might get some help with a few remedial tube rolling fundamentals questions.


Some background: With no previous electronics experience to speak of, my recent months of reading bits and snippets from all over the Internet have left me somewhat confused. I got an Electronics for Dummies book and a few others like it, a soldering iron, a multimeter, and some kits to build and I’ve spend dozens of hours exploring all of those along with lots of reading of this and other forums. I’ve picked up a basic understanding of Ohm’s Law and learned a fair bit about the history of tube amplification and hi-fi in general. But there are gaps I’m having a hard time filling in so I’m looking for help.


Modern basic electronic books neglect any discussion of tubes or relevant aspects of amplifier design. They have told me about the difference between a resistor and a capacitor, but not really why either one helps make my amp work well or what would happen if I, for example, replaced my capacitors with better ones. Meanwhile, supposedly “basic” books specifically on tube amps presuppose a much more thorough understanding of electronics than I have. They assume I already know why we would use particular capacitors and resistors in our circuit designs, but I don’t.


Neither book tells me what I’m missing. I’m feeling a bit lost in the middle, like I’ve read volume 1 and 3, but volume 2 has what I need to know and I haven’t found a copy of it yet, or even if it’s been written at all. And yet I get the impression that some of you have a good understanding of this missing Vol 2, hence my current post 


What I’m currently most interested in understanding better is how to determine for myself which tubes could be good candidates for any given amp, especially Elise.


I’ve got a small collection of octals (mostly 6SN7 and 6AS7 variants), some pentode-types with adapters (EL12, EL32, EL38) and various noval dual triodes as well (12AU7, 12AX7), also with octal adapters, Plus KT120s for my big amp.  However, I’ve only ever rolled combinations of these tubes into Elise that I’ve already seen other trailblazers have had good results with here on this thread and on the Euforia thread.


Other than simply following the successful experiments of others with Elise (octals), with my other preamp (12ax7-based) and my stereo amp (12au7 drivers and KT-88 powers) I have no idea which tubes can be rolled where without risk of damage to the tubes and/or the amps.


With Elise, I’ve seen triode-strapped pentodes like EL32 and EL38 tubes being used as both powers and drivers which only adds to my confusion. It would never have occurred to me that a pentode could be used in place of a triode, much less in either role. Neat! What else can we do?


I think I understand this much: by looking at tube data sheets I can determine the current draw that each tube requires and I can compare that to the total current that the amp’s power supply can flow. If the tubes don’t exceed what the amp can flow, that much makes sense.


I also realize that different tubes have different gain factors - a 6SL7 might be a bad substitute for a 6sn7 because it’s gain is so much higher - I’m guessing this would make the signal distort, but would it damage anything?


(Please feel free to correct me if I’m off the mark on any of this).


Are there other factors that would be risky if not accounted for? If I plug a 12au7 into Elise with an adapter instead of a 6sn7, am I asking for trouble? If I understand correctly, they have similar gain but the 12au7 draws less current. Is that fine?


How did we realize that a supposed power tube like an EL32 can be used as a driver, and vice versa? What about an EL34 or EL37?  Does triode-strapping a pentode alter anything on the pentode’s spec sheet? 4 EL38s sound fantastic in my Elise - how do I know if they are safe to use in my monoblocks as preamp and/or power tubes? Can 6SN7s be put in Elise’s power sockets? Can 6AS7Gs or 5998s be drivers for Elise? Why or why not?


In short, we’ve clearly got a marvelous amount of freedom to roll tubes in this amazing amp beyond what Feliks Audio has officially approved, but I’m not sure what the basic principles are governing the parameters in which we are free to play with relative safety to our amps, tubes, and selves.  I welcome any insight anyone feels inspired to share, and if these questions are answered in a comprehensive and accessible way elsewhere, I gladly welcome links for further reading.


Many thanks to all for this great resource!

-Jay


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## hypnos1 (Jan 25, 2019)

Madhyamika said:


> Hello all - I have a “big” question and I’m hoping to tap into the experience and knowledge of the remarkable contributors to this thread to see if I might get some help with a few remedial tube rolling fundamentals questions.
> 
> 
> Some background: With no previous electronics experience to speak of, my recent months of reading bits and snippets from all over the Internet have left me somewhat confused. I got an Electronics for Dummies book and a few others like it, a soldering iron, a multimeter, and some kits to build and I’ve spend dozens of hours exploring all of those along with lots of reading of this and other forums. I’ve picked up a basic understanding of Ohm’s Law and learned a fair bit about the history of tube amplification and hi-fi in general. But there are gaps I’m having a hard time filling in so I’m looking for help.
> ...



Hi M...Yo, a *very *big question(s!!!). And perhaps I might be able to shed just a tiny bit later, when I have more time lol! Hopefully those with more knowledge of the electronics involved will be able to shine much more....

As for how things came about re. trying triode-strapped pentodes, I first experimented with the C3g in my LittleDot MKIV SE, purely on a passing mention from member Audiofanboy...with no idea whatsoever whether or not it might blow up the amp!! When it not only worked OK, but actually _shone_, this was the encouragement for me to experiment with Elise, then Euforia.

I have to admit that apart from scouring the web, and carefully searching the wonderful Radiomuseum site for any info, the only precautions I took were that the heater requirement was 6.3V and that plate output didn't appear _too_ great...*crazy or what?!!* The same approach was used when trying alternative triodes such as the FDD20 and ECC31, which were less risky because of their similarity to 6SN7 specs. But then came the EL family of pentodes - first spied by @UntilThen (the EL3N), and which I once again risked having a go at, after the success of the C3g. As pentodes, they would probably be much too powerful for our circuits, but as triode-strapping halves their power, I thought the risk may not be too great. Luckily, they worked OK and the rest is history lol! .
At this point, I should stress that to this day, no-one has figured out exactly why/how they work so well in our amps...this has just turned out to be an incredibly lucky find, and a risk worth taking (on my part at least, as guinea pig...ensuring they are at least _safe_ to use!). And so relying purely and strictly on published specs re. 'best' performance according to specific circuit parameters, I'm sure no-one would have even _considered _using these pentodes in our amps. In fact, when I sent some EL11s to F-A for testing, apparently the bench readings were 'all over the place', and so they couldn't officially recommend them...and yet they performed extremely well, without any untoward effects whatsoever!! And long-term use of these - and following EL tubes - has proved them perfectly safe to use...with the added benefit if running the amps MUCH cooler than stock configuration.

And so this hints at the great difficulty in knowing just _precisely_ what official specs will ensure success with any particular tube, regardless of depth of electronic knowledge lol! . The web can be a useful source for info on what others (especially DIY guys) may have tried as alternatives, and the aforementioned Radiomuseum site is great for finding similar tubes that may have preceeded or succeeded a particular one, and give a possible clue (I find it best to Google the tube number first, thence to the site).

Hope this sheds at least a little light on this massive and yes - *confusing* subject!...CHEERS!...CJ


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## mordy

Hi Madhyamika,
I would like to add just a couple of points to the excellent comments of h1:
The synergy between tubes is very important. Some tubes don't sound good with certain other tubes, and other combinations are great sounding. I have not come across anything that can predict how things are going to sound or could be measured - it's all trial and error.
You have to be careful not to exceed the current rating of the amp to avoid damaging it. If the total current draw gets close to the limit, you can check on the amp by touching it, or, using an inexpensive infrared thermometer, make sure that it does not get too hot - heat being enemy #1 of electronics.
Many times the designer/manufacturer of the amp can tell you what works and what does not, but as you can see from h1's comments, some manufacturers err on the side of caution. 
There is some kind of consensus which tubes are the best sounding, but it is a mistake to think that there is a relationship between price and performance - very often very inexpensive tubes sound absolutely great. Also, a tube that sounds great in one amp may not work as well in a different amp. This is where the advice of forum members becomes invaluable.


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## Madhyamika

Thank you @hypnos1 and @mordy for your helpful replies - this gives me a very good philosophical summary of the pioneer spirit that has helped lead us to some of these lovely discoveries that we are already enjoying. I do have an infrared thermometer here that I’ve been using on the big tube amp (a VTA ST-120) so I’ll use it to get a baseline measurement for Elise too with stock tubes and with a quad of EL38s. I’m not inclined to stray too far in experiments since I’m already so pleased with the 38s, but I’m also interested in knowing more about the how and why of how tunes and amp interact electrically and sonically so I’ll be able to make good decisions about possible experimentation with this amp and others in the future. 
Enjoy!
Jay


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## hypnos1

Madhyamika said:


> Thank you @hypnos1 and @mordy for your helpful replies - this gives me a very good philosophical summary of the pioneer spirit that has helped lead us to some of these lovely discoveries that we are already enjoying. I do have an infrared thermometer here that I’ve been using on the big tube amp (a VTA ST-120) so I’ll use it to get a baseline measurement for Elise too with stock tubes and with a quad of EL38s. I’m not inclined to stray too far in experiments since I’m already so pleased with the 38s, but I’m also interested in knowing more about the how and why of how tunes and amp interact electrically and sonically so I’ll be able to make good decisions about possible experimentation with this amp and others in the future.
> Enjoy!
> Jay



Hi again Jay....just another quick note even if not really answering your quest for knowledge! 

I fear you will indeed probably be searching for ever more to find detailed info on the 'hows and whys' of such interactions...there certainly does seem to be very little _easily_ available comprehensive explanation for amateurs and professionals alike. I suspect this is only really geared to specialist electronic teaching establishments, or those who have been in the business a very long time. I suspect also that a good deal of this knowledge is surrounded in secrecy...'trade secrets' if you will. And as a consequence therefore, I would imagine that the best, and most likely source for we amateurs would be the DIY forums. But even many of those seem to have dwindled over recent times re. guys who have both the knowledge and time/desire to actually answer such questions.

As far as 'possible experimentation' goes, I'm afraid the official line will always (understandably) be 'stick with the tubes specifically configured for'....full stop! Anything outside this will always incur risk, of course. I personally have been happy to indulge such risks, but I don't actually recommend it too much...unless based upon previous findings with something at least _similar_. I myself have been ridiculed in the past by 'knowledgeable' guys in this hobby, simply because I dared to question 'accepted wisdom'. And I must admit that _luck_ has played a big part also in my end results. So, as Dirty Harry might say...."Do you feel lucky?"!!! I know you would much rather have a solid, scientific basis for experimentation, but I expect you will indeed just have to keep scouring the endless web for clues as to what _might_ be possible/safe if straying off the accepted path, M...

But re. your power amps and the EL34 etc, I'm sure @Johnnysound could give you a few pointers in that area...he having experience of such tubes (and also loving the EL38 in his own power amp)...

I wish you all the best in your thirst for deeper insights into the rather mysterious (IMO) world of our glass wonders lol....CHEERS!...CJ


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## OctavianH (Jan 27, 2019)

I do not want to interfere in a very interesting discussion, in which I am particularly interested, but I have to come back as promised, with some details and pictures of my new Furman power conditioner. I have to say that I was quite impressed since it arrived at my door in 3 days from Germany. On Black Friday I ordered a SSD for my PC from Amazon and it arrived via local Post Office after 2 months, so it was a surprise to receive it so fast.

Link: https://www.furmanpower.com/product/10a-two-outlet-power-conditioner-export-AC-210A E

Ok, but let's see what I found in the box:







The packaging was very simple. The seller sent me 2 additional cables, which are not normally included by Furman, and provided me the choice to opt for these ones or Schuko ones.
Inside the box was the unit which looks identical to the pictures:






The metal enclosure is sturdy and gives a good impression of quality. The included power cable seems also a decent one.
And to have a size comparison with Elise and my DAC I will put also a picture of the actual configuration of my headphone line.






And now the opinion regarding the effect on the sound, which I think is what anyone wants to hear. I have to say that I have listened to Elise only 2 hours after I connected it and mostly to the same album, but it was an album I listened yesterday a lot and I can say I know it quite well, it is the latest Evergrey album, The Atlantic. Just to check if everything is fine I tried also my all time favorite progressive rock band (unknown for you, it is a romanian band from 80s), but only for a track. That track is the one I always use to check my audio line, because the production is one of the best I ever heard and for me is a measure of clarity. When that track sounds fine, I can say that everything is in order.

*Ok, now the conclusion*: the sound signature is identical, nothing has changed and everything is there as you know it, but the difference is made by clarity. There is exactly the same amount of detail, but every instrument has more edge, instrument separation is better and you have the feeling that Elise sounds the same but you have, somehow, reduced to silence the other noises in the house and you are able to hear it better. I would say that the differences are bigger when the production is better, since the prog rock romanian band just kills Evergrey's production in all aspects and on that track my impression was that the improvement was much more distinguishable. In the past, when I added a LPS to my 2Qute, I had the first feeling that somehow the mids were recessed, especially on the electric guitar, but the reason was, most probably, that the noise was adding a little bit of harshness to the distortion of the electrical guitar which sounded better to my noob ear. In time I got used to that and realized that the LPS was definitely an improvement for the DAC. Now, with this small power conditioner I have the feeling that also Elise is a step higher, and for an investment of approx. 200 EUR I would say, since it provides also protection, that is was a good decision.

By the way, for others which are using such devices, are you turning off these conditioners when the Elise is OFF or you just leave them ON all the time? Furman is not mentioning anything about this on their support manuals.


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## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> I do not want to interfere in a very interesting discussion, in which I am particularly interested, but I have to come back as promised, with some details and pictures of my new Furman power conditioner. I have to say that I was quite impressed since it arrived at my door in 3 days from Germany. On Black Friday I ordered a SSD for my PC from Amazon and it arrived via local Post Office after 2 months, so it was a surprise to receive it so fast.
> 
> Link: https://www.furmanpower.com/product/10a-two-outlet-power-conditioner-export-AC-210A E
> 
> ...



Hi OH....no, you're not intruding lol - this subject is also an important one for all of us IMHO! 

And... *AT LAST*, another convert to mains conditioning!!  As you mentioned, what this does - if a decent unit is used - is provide a wonderfully 'clean' background and space in which details can be presented more clearly and with much better separation and placement. The more subtle frequencies can also then have more of a chance to shine. The _degree _of improvement will, of course, depend on the quality of the rest of one's gear and, as you say, that of the recording itself! And the more pieces you listen to, the more you will begin to notice these benefits...along with others, I'm sure.......WELL DONE!...

ps. I suspect there are very few folks who wouldn't benefit in this way...often there's no _obvious _clue whatsoever of anything 'wrong' with our mains power supply, but it's fairly certain there are indeed enough 'gremlins' in it to at least have a negative impact on our quest for the highest possible quality of sound reproduction.

pps. I personally don't keep my own units on all the time - I don't think there's any real need to with modern ones, but worth checking with instructions (if such info is given!). Also, it may - like my Regenerator and Balanced Mains/Filter units - have slow/soft startup function, which is great for our tube amps, if not already provided (F-A did apparently include this a while back...in Euforia at least, not sure about Elise...), so I never have to use the amp's power switch at all lol!!


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## connieflyer

Good morning all. Glad the Fuhrman is working out oh, that was about the same thing that I noticed that everything was just better. In my own estimation I think this is a very important piece Of equipment. As far as leaving the unit on or off I leave mine on all the time as it does have a slow startup and the only Power that it draws when it's not on are the LEDs so that's miniscule. Plus everything being on should there be a power Spike or anything else in the line it should not get through. I know it has an on-off switch yada yada yada but years ago we had a lightning strike that hit close to our house. It shorted out 1Channel on AR receiver and blew out the television and none of these were connected together except they each were on a power strip that did not do its job. So what I would do I suppose if I was concerned about it I would email the company and find out what they think themselves. But I don't see any downside I'm leaving it turned on especially since my n a s is also connected to this unit and that way it is also protected


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## OctavianH (Feb 1, 2019)

Guys, I do not want to be offtopic but I want to share with you my latest finding, which was done by mistake:
https://headphone.ovcaudio.com/
So this is a tube headphone... And it will have also a Bluetooth version.


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## connieflyer

Never having heard these or have any information about them, danger I see, is parts. Unless it uses an tube that is cheap and easily obtainable, it looks to me to be a problem to source the tube if these phones do  not take off and sell like hot cakes.  Plus the asking price is quit low which brings into question the quality of the product.  Neat idea but not my cup of tea.


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## OctavianH (Feb 1, 2019)

Of course it looks like a "mainstream" product which tries to impress people. I never liked the idea of Bluetooth in audio, nor some hot tubes near my ear. But it was something which, have to admit, surprised me. I never thought about such an audio "solution" or thought that someone will design it.


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## Scutey

Finally after months of huffing and puffing I've finally got round to buying an mcru linear power supply for my 2Qute, after reading positive comments from @OctavianH  and others. I must admit I was a bit apprehensive as to how much it would help/improve the sound from the Elise, so my expectation were fairly modest, perhaps a slight improvement, what I didn't expect was a significant improvement, the lps has been an absolute revelation!. The lps has improved all aspects of sound, clarity/ detail, more air and separation of instruments, increased depth and sound stage, highs have greater extension, more crystaline and yet less sizzle in the 10 khz area, which has always been a bit problematic with my DT 1990's, mids are slightly more forward, vocals in particular sound richer, and best of all bass, both quantity and quality, the tightness and the energy with which the bass hits, when called for is utterly addictive, for some maybe even too much, but not for me!  , I have to say this is as good an investment as I have made, now why didn't I get one earlier? .


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## OctavianH (Feb 3, 2019)

I fully agree with your assessment. The MCRU LPS is a big improvement to any Chord DAC (it was for me for 2Qute and now for Qutest I have the same impression). What I will do in addition is to add also an ISO Regen to the USB port. I found an used one on a local forum and ordered it. It will arrive to me on Monday and then I will be able to inform if there will be an improvement.
I had a negative impression related to iFi iPurifier which decreased the sound quality but the ISO Regen seems to be a much better product. Conclusion is: never trust Rob Watts when he tells you that his DAC is perfect and does not need anything to sound better. Neither his followers which are listening with his brain and ears and do not dare to try anything else. There are a lot of debates on the Qutest forum but the overall conclusion is that the Chord DACs are influenced by the power supply and USB connection, even if almost all have galvanic USB port isolation. So, well done! I had a good impression also about a power conditioner for Elise, which also improved its clarity and sound quality.


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## Scutey

What has so impressed me is the extra weight and presence music now has, dynamics are hugely improved, every note now has it's place to shine, I've tried several different tube combos,and they have all benefited from the lps, and the one that has seemed to have improved the most is the Psvane, I have always liked it but, to me, it always sounded a bit light, well not anymore!, right now I'm listening to Dark Side of the Moon on 24 bit 192 kHz with Psvane and TS 5998's and the sound is glorious!, so many thanks for you're input O ! . Re your incoming ISO Regen, I'll be interested how you get on with it, after the lps I'm intersted in anything that can improve the sound, also after you're excellent review of the Furman, plus some research, a power conditioner might also be on my "to do list" . It's also interesting what you say about the Qutest forum, I will have to have a look, it will be interesting to see the comments, I've noticed some forums can be a bit of a "closed shop" and don't like questioning perceive wisdom, well that certainly doesn't happen here, or over at the Euforia thread .


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## connieflyer

Glad you are still finding combos that offer what you seek.  I always liked the TS 5998's  still have a pair.  Am using right now, a pair of NOS Valvo EL11 as drivers and Mullard EL 38's as powers and the sound is excellent.  The pair of balloon tubes I have went micro phonic, waiting for some silicone tape like Mordy suggested and will try that and perhaps a re-solder on the tube pins.


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## Scutey

connieflyer said:


> Glad you are still finding combos that offer what you seek.  I always liked the TS 5998's  still have a pair.  Am using right now, a pair of NOS Valvo EL11 as drivers and Mullard EL 38's as powers and the sound is excellent.  The pair of balloon tubes I have went micro phonic, waiting for some silicone tape like Mordy suggested and will try that and perhaps a re-solder on the tube pins.


Thought I'd give your recommendation try, wow, what a fantastic combo!, airy, lovely extended, crystaline highs, great micro detail, I'm using a pair of Telefunken EL11 with the 38's, my EL11's have been unused for months and now they're singing again! .


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## connieflyer

Glad you like the combo, every now and then you hit a combo that really hits all the bases for you.  The El 38 and balloon El 38 did that for me, but when one went micro phonic, had to pull them, so had to try things that I had not thought of.  Had not used the EL 11 and EL 12 Spez for quite awhile, glad I did not sell them off.  Also glad I did not have to go out and buy other tubes to try to find such a great combo.


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## OctavianH (Feb 3, 2019)

Scutey said:


> What has so impressed me is the extra weight and presence music now has, dynamics are hugely improved, every note now has it's place to shine, I've tried several different tube combos,and they have all benefited from the lps, and the one that has seemed to have improved the most is the Psvane, I have always liked it but, to me, it always sounded a bit light, well not anymore!, right now I'm listening to Dark Side of the Moon on 24 bit 192 kHz with Psvane and TS 5998's and the sound is glorious!, so many thanks for you're input O ! . Re your incoming ISO Regen, I'll be interested how you get on with it, after the lps I'm intersted in anything that can improve the sound, also after you're excellent review of the Furman, plus some research, a power conditioner might also be on my "to do list" . It's also interesting what you say about the Qutest forum, I will have to have a look, it will be interesting to see the comments, I've noticed some forums can be a bit of a "closed shop" and don't like questioning perceive wisdom, well that certainly doesn't happen here, or over at the Euforia thread .



I will come back, as usual, with some impressions related to the ISO Regen. This will be my final upgrade for the headphone line. My plan is to plug the ISO Regen power supply to the second output of the Furman because I do not want to add a new LPS here only for it. I have small expectations because, honestly, I always believed that the analogue signal needs filtering but a stream of digital data should not be affected in any way. However, I want to try it and to find out if I am wrong or not. The ISO Regen seems to be, judging by the reviews, one of the best solutions and it is much better than the iFi iPurifiers.

PS. The only thing which will take my money instantly would be an M-Scaler, if Chord decides to release one for Qutest at a decent price.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I will come back, as usual, with some impressions related to the ISO Regen. This will be my final upgrade for the headphone line. My plan is to plug the ISO Regen power supply to the second output of the Furman because I do not want to add a new LPS here only for it. I have small expectations because, honestly, I always believed that the analogue signal needs filtering but a stream of digital data should not be affected in any way. However, I want to try it and to find out if I am wrong or not. The ISO Regen seems to be, judging by the reviews, one of the best solutions and it is much better than the iFi iPurifiers.
> 
> PS. The only thing which will take my money instantly would be an M-Scaler, if Chord decides to release one for Qutest at a decent price.


Good luck with the Regan, hope it works well!.


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## Scutey

connieflyer said:


> Glad you like the combo, every now and then you hit a combo that really hits all the bases for you.  The El 38 and balloon El 38 did that for me, but when one went micro phonic, had to pull them, so had to try things that I had not thought of.  Had not used the EL 11 and EL 12 Spez for quite awhile, glad I did not sell them off.  Also glad I did not have to go out and buy other tubes to try to find such a great combo.


It's always satisfying when you come across a nice new combo from existing tubes, it's a double bonus, new sound for no outlay, what could be better!. Also I'll be interested to hear how you get on with the silicone tape as a couple of my 38's are mildly micro phonic, anything that can help would be good.


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## OctavianH (Feb 4, 2019)

Ok, so back to Discovery Channel. As promised, I come back with my findings related to the ISO Regen regarding what he can do and, more importantly, cannot do when connected to a Chord Qutest. But first of all, the story begins when I found on a local forum an ISO Regen for sale at the price of approx 250USD. Since the stock price was somewhere around 310 USD and if I order a new one I will have to pay 20% VAT and the shipment charges, I have decided to give him a try. The unit came without any power supply or even power plug, but with the "famous" USBPCB adapter which Uptone tells you it is much better than any cable, more exactly the version with B-Plug turned 90-degrees. The seller provided also the invoice, so it was bought in 01.2018 at the price of 350 £ from an UK audio store. Expensive in my humble oppinon, since these were all the included accessories:





Because I had no other way to power it, I searched for a simple "stecker" which will provide me 7.5V DC and at least 1A. And the result was this one, which I measured it and check the polarity to be sure everything is fine:






I never trust these kind of power supplies, but I measured it and it showed 7.6V, so I decided to give it a try:






Without being able to plug it in the Furman unit (because I had no Schuko cable for this one), I decided to plug it where I normally charge my phone:






And because the Regen, in a vertical position, the only one allowed by the 90-degree turned USBPCB was not keeping the DAC in an horizonat position, I had to find a workaround:






Well, at this point I was able to start my listening session. Elise was already turned on for 30 mins when I choose 3 albums (1 DSD format, Led Zeppelin I and 2 FLAC, the romanian progressive band I always use and a death metal band from US called Immolation).

So, let's start with the improvement: the soundstage was somehow bigger and there was a slightly better instrument separation. I had that feeling of a more "relaxed" sound with more air, maybe closer to the one you perceive while listening to speakers instead of headphones.
But now it comes the bad part, all what I previously mentioned came with the cost of the overall clarity, the bass lost authority and precission and was somehow muddy. I said ok, let's wait, but when I finally decided to remove it, the sound became richer and the bass was back.
I started to read the specs of this device and found that it has 2 switches, one I / ON on the unit itself (a red one) which means "Isolation" and "No Isolation" (yep, even if I was convinced that NO was meaning ON and I guess 99% of the people will think like me).
The second switch was on the USB adapter on and it was related to VBUS = ON / OFF. So I said, OK, let's turn these switches to the other position, but this stopped Qutest from working, which tells me that Qutest needs some Voltage on the USB port, at least for USB protocol handshake.
I was brave enough to put the switches back to Isolation and VBUS = ON and made a second try but the perception was the same.

In conclusion, my experiment failed to impress me. I got a bigger soundstage and some airiness at the cost of clarity and the clean and impressive bass I had before. Maybe my problem is the power supply and with a dedicated LPS this unit will have a better impact on the sound, but I do not plan to buy the one Uptone sells at somewhere around 400 USD just to check this.
I have a not used MCRU LPS of 12V (made for 2Qute) which might be used, but Uptone tells me that I can put up to 20V on ISO Regen only if I am sure that the DAC does not absorb anything via the USB port, and since I have observed what happened when the VBUS = OFF I have decided not to try this.
What I can do is to find a Schuko power cable to plug this device from the Furman, but I am not sure if this will really improve things or not.

Ok, at the moment the mighty ISO Regen goes to its box and maybe in the future I will try it again, or not. However, it was an interesting test. The seller told me that how he can describe it is that it provides a more "natural" sound, and he was using it for a speaker setup with a DAC of around 3500 EUR (so much more expensive than mine, exaSound Audio Design e22, which I have no idea how it sounds). He sold it because he upgraded to a better USB filtering solution.


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## mordy

OctavianH said:


> Guys, I do not want to be offtopic but I want to share with you my latest finding, which was done by mistake:
> https://headphone.ovcaudio.com/
> So this is a tube headphone... And it will have also a Bluetooth version.


Hi O,
Sorry to hear that the magic little box did not work for you.
Re the tube headphones, I just can't understand the idea - can you explain it to me?
It sounds to me like a tube buffer inserted inside the headphones. How is it going to be powered? Heat build-up? And if you are looking for small vacuum tubes, there are plenty of sub miniature vacuum tubes available very cheap that seem to be much smaller.


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## OctavianH

I have no idea, all I've seen was that promo page without technical information.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Ok, so back to Discovery Channel. As promised, I come back with my findings related to the ISO Regen regarding what he can do and, more importantly, cannot do when connected to a Chord Qutest. But first of all, the story begins when I found on a local forum an ISO Regen for sale at the price of approx 250USD. Since the stock price was somewhere around 310 USD and if I order a new one I will have to pay 20% VAT and the shipment charges, I have decided to give him a try. The unit came without any power supply or even power plug, but with the "famous" USBPCB adapter which Uptone tells you it is much better than any cable, more exactly the version with B-Plug turned 90-degrees. The seller provided also the invoice, so it was bought in 01.2018 at the price of 350 £ from an UK audio store. Expensive in my humble oppinon, since these were all the included accessories:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Octavian, 

Excellent review and pics!, sorry it didn't work out, unless we can try before we buy it's always a bit of a gamble, at least you gave it a go. I think a day or so after you mentioned you had bought it, but not yet received it, I saw on another forum, someone else had tried the Regen and said pretty much what you said, although he didn't go into much detail on why he didn't like it so I thought I would stay quiet until you came to your own conclusions, thanks for letting us know how you got on!.


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## OctavianH

One is not crazy enough if he does not add a CD Transport to his audio line. So I've done it: *Cambridge Audio CXC*. It was the last unit on a local shop at the price of somewhere around 400 EUR.






Since I am very pleased with my QED Reference USB I went on the same direction with an optical one:






And the result was:






The transport was plugged in Furman alongside Elise.

Well, and now let's see if these 400 EUR + 100 EUR for the cable were a good investment. After the failed one with the ISO Regen I was quite curious to see if the "myth" of "a FLAC file will never match a good transport" is true or not. 
I have to admit that I was expecting to obtain the same or lower quality via optical and a "normal" CD. I do not know why, I am reluctant to optical. Hell knows why. So these were the expectations when searching for Evergrey - The Atlantic on my CD wall to start the new experiment.
And since I am a lazy person, at least during weekends, the "pleasure" of looking for a specific CD on my shelf was making me feeling like in the 90s. I have to tell also that I have not listened to a CD Player or Cassette for several years because of the simplicity of a FLAC library.

And ... YES. Even if this QED Reference Optical Quartz needs burn in, as many claim, I have to admit that the sound using as source the CXC is better that the PC. It is somehow a little bit darker, but I have a better feeling of cohesion and that feeling of "compression"  disappeared.
We are not discussing about better details, but about a better sound presence, and a more natural presentation. So yes, now when Elise has almost 1 year, on 20th, I have done it justice and provided it a proper source. And the myth was true... 

Time will tell if the cable will add additional improvement during next days.

Now it's time for a cold beer, well done Octavian! Happy birthday Elise, here is your present: a source which makes you justice.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> One is not crazy enough if he does not add a CD Transport to his audio line. So I've done it: *Cambridge Audio CXC*. It was the last unit on a local shop at the price of somewhere around 400 EUR.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi O, that Cambridge Audio cxc looks like a really nice piece of equipment, good buy!,and, as always, a very good review and excellent pics!, hope it, and the cable works out well.

Oh and ps happy birthday to your Elise! .


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## OctavianH

CXC is a really nice one, of course in its price range which is, let's say "under 500£". There are much more expensive models which, most probably, are much better. And some guys are upgrading also this one with better clock and PSU.
The funny part is that a simple cheap transport sounds better that any PC/laptop. This is the main thing I learned during my experiment, which I consider a success. I chose it after reading reviews and it seems many consider it a good value for the price.
I cannot say more since it is my first transport. Back in the days I had a CD player integrated in a "tower" line but some years passed since then.

The cable seems of very good quality and it is much more flexible that I have imagined. Usually when I buy such a cable I think of it as a kind of white weapon which if it fells on the floor it will definitely damage it, but this one surprise me. Nice connectors also. I guess I will be a good friend of the QED Reference line for a long time from now on.

Now I take my popcorn and wait to see what others are doing.


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## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> One is not crazy enough if he does not add a CD Transport to his audio line. So I've done it: *Cambridge Audio CXC*. It was the last unit on a local shop at the price of somewhere around 400 EUR.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well done OH...as you've discovered, a better quality source will indeed bring out more from F-A's amps.... as with any upgrade made elsewhere in the system  . Our amps - and we! - deserve to be spoilt...ENJOY!...CJ


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## WithGumption

I just found this thread and am a new Elise owner--the search button on the thread is definitely useful--but, so much to get through.  What is everyone's current tube combination that they like? Definitely on the lookout for some power tubes to roll.

What set of tubes do you feel has the biggest impact on the sound? Driver or Power tubes?


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## Scutey

WithGumption said:


> I just found this thread and am a new Elise owner--the search button on the thread is definitely useful--but, so much to get through.  What is everyone's current tube combination that they like? Definitely on the lookout for some power tubes to roll.
> 
> What set of tubes do you feel has the biggest impact on the sound? Driver or Power tubes?


Hi WG, welcome to Head-Fi!, and congrats on getting an Elise, it's a very fine amp which I'm sure you'll get lots of enjoyment from!. As for tubes, the choice with the Elise is huge!, I would highly recommend you reading this thread from the start and gradually work your way through, you will find it hugely invaluable as a source of information, as for my own personal choice, I'll just give you a few, to get you on your way. 

For Powers,
Mullard 6080
RCA 6AS7G
Tung Sol 5998
EL38 (can be used as a power or driver or both together via adapters)

FOR drivers
Psvane CV181 TII
National Union 6SN7GT
RCA 6SN7GT
EL11 (ST shape via adapter)
EL38 (via adapter)
EL32 (via adapter)

This is just a very small selection of what can be used, also depends on your budget/tastes, but I would stress again to have a good read of this thread before you buy any, I found it absolutely invaluable. Hopefully others pitch in with some recommendations for you too. Good luck!.


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## hypnos1 (Feb 20, 2019)

WithGumption said:


> I just found this thread and am a new Elise owner--the search button on the thread is definitely useful--but, so much to get through.  What is everyone's current tube combination that they like? Definitely on the lookout for some power tubes to roll.
> 
> What set of tubes do you feel has the biggest impact on the sound? Driver or Power tubes?



Hi again WG.

As you've probably gathered by now, you have indeed entered a veritable minefield lol! . There are widely varying opinions on tubes...perhaps more so than in any other area of hi-fi.

Uppermost is the factor of _personal preference_, easily on a par with the vastly different equipment setups used. In this context, the latter does in fact actually have by far a _bigger impact _on sound than using different tubes..._on the whole!!_ ...ie. *music source; DAC and headphones...*the last 2 especially. And to a lesser extent - but still an important factor - mains power conditioning/filtering and cables.

As for the impact re. drivers or powers... again, there are divergent opinions. General concensus has been that drivers determine the sound more, but more of us in recent times have discovered that the powers have far more influence than previously credited for! And then there's that wonderful element '_synergy'_ - the end result of a certain combination. There's no guarantee that two well regarded drivers and powers together will perform as 'theory' or individual prowess might suggest! . And to make matters worse, a combo that synergises really well in one system may well _not_ in another...*yikes!!
*
And so much will finally depend on the amount of experimenting one is prepared to do, and then a great deal of...*luck!* . We can get _some _idea from the results of others, which may help us in the right direction...especially if there's some kind of concensus. This will need, of course, a good deal of research...there isn't really a nice shortcut to this alas, for the reasons just described. The first posts on this thread is a good place to start, but more recent findings might well be more productive...especially as the tubes that have traditionally been 'top flight' are now way overpriced unfortunately....such as the best Sylvania drivers ('Chrome Dome'), or TungSol 6SN7GT, 'Black Glass, Round Plate' drivers; and TS 5998 or GEC/Osram versions of the 6AS7G powers. All these old tubes are now prohibitively expensive IMHO.

In light of this, I personally cannot really recommend particular tubes any more...especially as I have strayed away from 'conventional' tubes for a long while now - many of which I believe to be at least the equal of, if not better than, configured for tubes (_*old versions) *_that can cost vastly more.

I will however make 2 (or 3!) exceptions to this reticence...firstly the _*EL32/CV1052*_, as both driver _and  _power. This foursome performs way above its price point, in my opinion. Secondly, I firmly believe the _*EL38*_ to be a hidden gem, especially as a power tube. I personally rate this above _all_ other top flight (power) tubes I have used in the past...including the oft-regarded 'Holy Grail' and horribly expensive GEC/Osram versions of the 6AS7G. And the third tube I will now recommend is the _*EL11*_ as driver - previously a top performing tube, and which is now proving to be a first rate partner for the EL38.
All these need 3rd party adapters, and the EL11 is, sadly, not so easily available now at such good prices as they were recently. @OctavianH has however found a source for a version, and is given over at the Euforia thread...with a follow up post from myself about the EL11 tube in general : https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.831743/page-373

Hopefully my long-winded reply has at least given you a bit more of an idea just what you're up against, mon ami! . But despite all this possible angst, this subject can be extremely interesting and ultimately rewarding...just so long as you have a good degree of patience and perseverance (and depending on the depth of one's wallet lol!! )...CHEERS!...CJ


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## OctavianH

I feel like I am the only one here who was not yet impressed by EL tubes, even if I tried EL3N, EL12N and EL32 in different combinations. Most probably I am the exception which proves the rule. Anyway, since I added a new source to my headphone system, more exactly the CXC, I always had the feeling that the previous combo was too dark for me. So I looked on my list of previous tube pairings and found that Foton 6H8C + Tung Sol 7236 might be what I am looking for. I feel like Stephen Hawking when knowing that this has to be the result but still, not being yet able to prove it. Anyway, a Sunday evening is always a good time for a nice picture, so here it goes:






And by the way, this combo sounds quite different than what I was remembering. So it seems that each source needs its own combos to shine.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I feel like I am the only one here who was not yet impressed by EL tubes, even if I tried EL3N, EL12N and EL32 in different combinations. Most probably I am the exception which proves the rule. Anyway, since I added a new source to my headphone system, more exactly the CXC, I always had the feeling that the previous combo was too dark for me. So I looked on my list of previous tube pairings and found that Foton 6H8C + Tung Sol 7236 might be what I am looking for. I feel like Stephen Hawking when knowing that this has to be the result but still, not being yet able to prove it. Anyway, a Sunday evening is always a good time for a nice picture, so here it goes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great pic O!, regarding EL tubes, it would be a rather boring world if we all liked the same things. Also have you tried your Psvanes with the TS 7236?, I tried this combo a couple weeks ago and found it to be very good, brighter than 5998, slightly reduced bass but harder hitting, more dynamic, not so much better or worse just different, any way I thought it paired rather well with the Psvanes.


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## OctavianH

Yes, I tried that one exactly after the one I've mentioned and I had the same impression as you had. I think I will have to wait another 20-30h because these TS 7236 are almost new, then I will be able to make a final assessment.


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## connieflyer

Good Morning O, I have the Cambridge network streamer CXN and they seem to be well made and most important work well. I see you are not sold on the El tubes, and I wonder if you have tried the EL38, as I have tried the other el's as well and the EL38's are far and away the best I have heard. I had used a quad for awhile and then went to El38's as powers and El 11's as drivers and this seems to me to be exceptional. I have just resurrected the el 38 balloon tubes that were noisy and this is a great combo.


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## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> I feel like I am the only one here who was not yet impressed by EL tubes, even if I tried EL3N, EL12N and EL32 in different combinations. Most probably I am the exception which proves the rule. Anyway, since I added a new source to my headphone system, more exactly the CXC, I always had the feeling that the previous combo was too dark for me. So I looked on my list of previous tube pairings and found that Foton 6H8C + Tung Sol 7236 might be what I am looking for. I feel like Stephen Hawking when knowing that this has to be the result but still, not being yet able to prove it. Anyway, a Sunday evening is always a good time for a nice picture, so here it goes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi OH.

As @Scutey mentions, we all have different tastes and preferences...not to mention ears lol! . Plus, such things can and _do_ change over the years...I myself have gradually come to prefer a much richer, more full bodied sound since my early days with the LittleDot MKIV SE and Elise, and which Euforia plus the EL family in general tend to bring. This being the case, I do in fact wonder whether Euforia will indeed be suitable for you...being 'heavier/fuller' in tone than Elise. I suggest you think long and hard about this factor...especially if you have arrived at a sound that suits you perfectly from Elise. And although _most_ folks prefer Euforia to Elise, that doesn't have to mean _all_ lol!...CHEERS and HAPPY LISTENING!...CJ


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## OctavianH

I would say that the main factor here is the different types of music which we are listening. For example these EL tubes are favouring a lot vocal music, piano or maybe trumpets. Therefore, classical and jazz are definitely a better match for them. I listened a few days ago some Corelli which sounded very good on darker tubes. I plan to continue to mix some classical with the "usual" stuff from time to time, but I keep my opinion that for rock music these EL tubes are not always the best match. Regarding Euforia, I wait for @Scutey to come with his own assessment. And regarding a future upgrade for me, at the moment I am very pleased with what I hear and I think that patience is the key to fully understand what I need. I will not hide that there are several candidates to a possible future upgrade and these are: Euforia, GOTL and WA22. I will not hide also that I would like to try a balanced connection for T1 and WA22 might be a good point in that regard.

PS. One small thing I do not like at Elise (and also Euforia) and I never mentioned because it is not a technical problem but a design one is the volume knob. I never understood why they made those black on black volume markings which I am never able to see since my front panel of the amp is always in a penumbra. So I guess that soon I'll paint them to white or glue something on it to be able to see something. Anyway, this is not a technical issue, so do not count it.


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## mordy

OctavianH said:


> I would say that the main factor here is the different types of music which we are listening. For example these EL tubes are favouring a lot vocal music, piano or maybe trumpets. Therefore, classical and jazz are definitely a better match for them. I listened a few days ago some Corelli which sounded very good on darker tubes. I plan to continue to mix some classical with the "usual" stuff from time to time, but I keep my opinion that for rock music these EL tubes are not always the best match. Regarding Euforia, I wait for @Scutey to come with his own assessment. And regarding a future upgrade for me, at the moment I am very pleased with what I hear and I think that patience is the key to fully understand what I need. I will not hide that there are several candidates to a possible future upgrade and these are: Euforia, GOTL and WA22. I will not hide also that I would like to try a balanced connection for T1 and WA22 might be a good point in that regard.
> 
> PS. One small thing I do not like at Elise (and also Euforia) and I never mentioned because it is not a technical problem but a design one is the volume knob. I never understood why they made those black on black volume markings which I am never able to see since my front panel of the amp is always in a penumbra. So I guess that soon I'll paint them to white or glue something on it to be able to see something. Anyway, this is not a technical issue, so do not count it.


Hi OctavianH,
Agree with you on the faint markings on the volume knob. I found two no-cost effective options:
1) I applied a drop of white typing correction fluid to the indentation on the knob - works fine.
2) On another amp I cut a thin white strip from an address label and stuck it on - it's still there and also works very well.


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## hypnos1 (Feb 26, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> I would say that the main factor here is the different types of music which we are listening. For example these EL tubes are favouring a lot vocal music, piano or maybe trumpets. Therefore, classical and jazz are definitely a better match for them. I listened a few days ago some Corelli which sounded very good on darker tubes. I plan to continue to mix some classical with the "usual" stuff from time to time, but I keep my opinion that for rock music these EL tubes are not always the best match. Regarding Euforia, I wait for @Scutey to come with his own assessment. And regarding a future upgrade for me, at the moment I am very pleased with what I hear and I think that patience is the key to fully understand what I need. I will not hide that there are several candidates to a possible future upgrade and these are: Euforia, GOTL and WA22. I will not hide also that I would like to try a balanced connection for T1 and WA22 might be a good point in that regard.
> 
> PS. One small thing I do not like at Elise (and also Euforia) and I never mentioned because it is not a technical problem but a design one is the volume knob. I never understood why they made those black on black volume markings which I am never able to see since my front panel of the amp is always in a penumbra. So I guess that soon I'll paint them to white or glue something on it to be able to see something. Anyway, this is not a technical issue, so do not count it.



Hi again OH.

I fully understand your position but, given the wide cross-section of genres enjoyed by many owners of Euforia now (plus professional reviewers' findings), I suspect that yours is going to be a rather long and tortuous (tortu_*rous*_?! ) quest mon ami!! And I can only hope that you are fortunate enough to be able to have a good, long listen to any future prospective candidates lol .

You are not alone of course in what can indeed be an extremely difficult journey towards hi-fi nirvana, and I wish you all the very best in this quest...CHEERS!...CJ


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## hypnos1

By the way @OctavianH ...the lack of clear markings on the volume knob does indeed make life difficult sometimes. But this has always been a design decision by F-A, in their quest for a 'clean, minimalist' look...they wanted to stay away from the often rather gaudy nature of some designs that do actually make things easier to discern however lol! .

But I too think they could/should have at least made volume level markings much plainer......


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## Scutey (Feb 26, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> I would say that the main factor here is the different types of music which we are listening. For example these EL tubes are favouring a lot vocal music, piano or maybe trumpets. Therefore, classical and jazz are definitely a better match for them. I listened a few days ago some Corelli which sounded very good on darker tubes. I plan to continue to mix some classical with the "usual" stuff from time to time, but I keep my opinion that for rock music these EL tubes are not always the best match. Regarding Euforia, I wait for @Scutey to come with his own assessment. And regarding a future upgrade for me, at the moment I am very pleased with what I hear and I think that patience is the key to fully understand what I need. I will not hide that there are several candidates to a possible future upgrade and these are: Euforia, GOTL and WA22. I will not hide also that I would like to try a balanced connection for T1 and WA22 might be a good point in that regard.
> 
> PS. One small thing I do not like at Elise (and also Euforia) and I never mentioned because it is not a technical problem but a design one is the volume knob. I never understood why they made those black on black volume markings which I am never able to see since my front panel of the amp is always in a penumbra. So I guess that soon I'll paint them to white or glue something on it to be able to see something. Anyway, this is not a technical issue, so do not count it.


Hi O, these decisions for us  are never easy are they!, not being able try out equipment just adds to the problem. I've read a fair chunk of the Euforia thread, from around the time most of the regulars were receiving their amps, around March 2017 on wards, everything that I've read has convinced me that a Euforia was the next natural step for me to make, as like h1 I've come to prefer a warmer, more full bodied, sound, and about a year ago a used Euforia came up for sale on eBay at a very good price, I hesitated and it was sold and I have regretted not buying it ever since, anyway at that time it didn't seem right to buy a new one, so since then I have contented myself with the Elise, which I have been very happy with, but finally after much thought, and finding an investment I had all but forgotten about (which has funded my Euforia!), now finally seemed like the right time to take the plunge!. It sounds like you're still very satisfied with your Elise, which can only be a good thing as you don't have to put any pressure on yourself to find another amp, because of the situation most of us are in, in that we can't try equipment for ourselves, it does take time to come to (hopefully) the right decision when we finally do decide to make a change, as you rightly say, patience is the key, and with that in mind you will come to the right decision.

ps, my first assessment between the amps will be one of your faves O, Psvane/ TS 5998, that one's for you .


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## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> ps, my first assessment between the amps will be one of your faves O, Psvane/ TS 5998, that one's for you .



Thanks a lot in advance for that. The human mind understands something based on a reference point or by comparing with an already known example. Since this pair is the one I mostly appreciate and use, it will be a better reference point for me to understand how both amps perform.
In the meantime I'll try something which I did not had the chance to do until now: Siemens C3g + Tung Sol 7236. Let's see what I will find.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Thanks a lot in advance for that. The human mind understands something based on a reference point or by comparing with an already known example. Since this pair is the one I mostly appreciate and use, it will be a better reference point for me to understand how both amps perform.
> In the meantime I'll try something which I did not had the chance to do until now: Siemens C3g + Tung Sol 7236. Let's see what I will find.


Now there's a tube I haven't seen/heard from for a while!, I can't remember the last time I used my C3g's, I have even forgotten what they sound like!, hope you enjoy that combo!.


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## OctavianH (Mar 8, 2019)

Unfortunately the C3g's are back in their boxes. The reason was that I have switched the interconnect cables from Chord C-Line to Chord Clearway which was a sensitive upgrade. Clearway are much better cables but the sound they provide is darker. Having new cables I added again the ISO Regen and now it seems it provided this time an improvement. This was the reason for me to search for a more detailed and better match and I found it in the CV181T1 + 7236. These have less bass than the 5998 but are very clean and detailed, and added to my setup exactly what I was needing. Now, honestly, I do not really understand why a pair of 5998 is priced somewhere at 250 EUR and a pair of 7236 might be under 100 EUR. These are the mysteries of the tube world. Both tubes are excellent in my opinion and should be placed somewhere on the same price level.

And for the ones who appreciate pictures, here's a new one:






But my latest changes have not provided only benefits. When I switched the interconnects and made some arrangements with the rest of the cables to provide a better orientation and comfort, I start to listen and make an assessment to the Clearway and observe that the left channel is somehow muffled, but to a very small extent. I said "OK, maybe this recording has a problem". But hours were passing and I was still observing this problem and it was becoming annoying. I was convinced that the Clearway left channel cable has a problem. So I started to switch cables and the problem was still there. I said that maybe Elise has a problem on one of the channels. I remembered that I switched some tubes before changing cables and maybe the auto-bias mechanism was doing something wrong. So I start to switch power tubes and driver tubes without any positive result.
Anyway, I reached the point when I decided to try the headphones to a different amp just to eliminate them from the equation. So I turned on, after almost 3 years, my audio-gd NFB11. And the problem was there. Now everything was clear to me: the T1.2 headphones have a problem. OK, but how I fixed it? It was so simple that I am ashamed it took me so long to find it. It seems there was an imperfect contact on the left jack of the cable which was connected to the left driver. Even if everything looked fine, something was not properly working there.
So, in conclusion, this problem is fixed now and leads me to the conclusion that every interconnect, socket and additional stuff is only adding another layer of possible problems. I was very happy when Beyerdynamic changed the cables on T1.2 with some interchangeable ones and thought that this will make much easier the maintenance and cable rolling, but in the end I used only the stock Cardas Clear Light one and look that I had a problem instead of a benefit from it. Who knows, maybe in the future I'll try a Moon Audio Silver Dragon. And another conclusion was that before we search for the perfect tubes and make very critical and analytical assessments, we need to be sure that the rest of the line and cables are properly connected and filtered. I wonder how many such problems are caused by these intermediary jacks. I just observed now something that I have forgotten: the stock T1.2 cable provided a 3.5mm jack and a converter to 6.3mm. So another possible... point of failure? I guess in the end I'll reach @hypnos1 conclusion and solder everything...
If I can find a benefit from all this effort, that one is: after 3 years I listened to my SS amp and remembered why I decided to go with a tube amp. But who knows, the Devil on the left shoulder tells me Violectric V281 might change my opinion. Let's hope the Angel on the right one will keep me from spending more money.

PS. I know that my latest posts are somehow off topic, but still Elise is a part of them. I'll try to stick on tube rolling which is the purpose of this thread but I would say that these observations about the environmental effects on our amp are also of interest. What I would advise before going to spend hundreds or thousand of EUR on tubes and amps: ensure you have the proper cables, grounding, filtering of the AC source and everything in place. Otherwise you'll reach my position of learning after 2 years that a connection jack on your headphone can make you loose many hours of your short life. And of course, try first 7236 with proper cables before other more expensive power tubes.


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## Scutey

You make a good point about all the interconnects we have in our systems, like a castle's defences, our whole system is only as strong as the weakest point.

Ps great pic!.


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## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> Unfortunately the C3g's are back in their boxes. The reason was that I have switched the interconnect cables from Chord C-Line to Chord Clearway which was a sensitive upgrade. Clearway are much better cables but the sound they provide is darker. Having new cables I added again the ISO Regen and now it seems it provided this time an improvement. This was the reason for me to search for a more detailed and better match and I found it in the CV181T1 + 7236. These have less bass than the 5998 but are very clean and detailed, and added to my setup exactly what I was needing. Now, honestly, I do not really understand why a pair of 5998 is priced somewhere at 250 EUR and a pair of 7236 might be under 100 EUR. These are the mysteries of the tube world. Both tubes are excellent in my opinion and should be placed somewhere on the same price level.
> 
> And for the ones who appreciate pictures, here's a new one:
> 
> ...



Hi OH.

That's a shame about the C3gs...they are a wonderful tube..._if_ the rest of the system is just right for them lol! 

And no worries about focusing on topics other than tube rolling...we've been doing this for years now, and they're just as important - if not _more_ so, sometimes. I personally have lost count of the number of times I've beseeched folks (ad nauseum!) to have everything else in the chain at the best quality they can afford (or beg, steal or borrow!!), and properly set up.

And re. connectors etc, although I don't actually recommend others to remove as many of these interfaces as possible throughout the chain unless _very_ au fait with such drastic manoeuvres and/or _madly _brave(!!), this does bring sonic improvements. Especially if, in the process, one does some DIY wire/cable replacement using the wonder wires - mono crystal OCC silver and copper......CHEERS!...CJ

ps. And do I sniff some SS heresy here lol?..._Shame on you!!_


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## OctavianH (Mar 9, 2019)

It is not heresy but honesty. Anyway, let's hope the tube Inquisition will not catch me too soon because I still have plenty of tubes to try and test. I would never renounce on my tube amp, mostly because T1 is pairing so well with it.
But (there is always a "but") I *would* like to have also a "counterpart" in my collection and this is why I read about V281 which seems to be the only worthy opponent of the "SS" team. The same for the source, where RME ADI-2 DAC might be a good companion to my Qutest, even if I will never renounce of it.

Anyway, regarding tube burn in times, my Tung Sol 7236 have somewhere at 30-40h already and I never really observed any change during this time. As far as I know they were NOS bought from US NY from a seller having a full box of tubes. Should I expect some changes or?

On them I have 6207 and 6213 which I guess means '62?






PS. And to make a proper assessment and change the playlist a little bit, I have returned to the one and only, and my favorite, Tchaikovsky. If someone mentioned earlier Holst, which I also appreciate, I have to give a "Thumbs up" to this recording:


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> It is not heresy but honesty. Anyway, let's hope the tube Inquisition will not catch me too soon because I still have plenty of tubes to try and test. I would never renounce on my tube amp, mostly because T1 is pairing so well with it.
> But (there is always a "but") I *would* like to have also a "counterpart" in my collection and this is why I read about V281 which seems to be the only worthy opponent of the "SS" team. The same for the source, where RME ADI-2 DAC might be a good companion to my Qutest, even if I will never renounce of it.
> 
> Anyway, regarding tube burn in times, my Tung Sol 7236 have somewhere at 30-40h already and I never really observed any change during this time. As far as I know they were NOS bought from US NY from a seller having a full box of tubes. Should I expect some changes or?
> ...



Well OH...remember those members of the Inquisition are merciless in hunting down sinners. And the cruelty of their methods in achieving 'renunciation' is legendary - viz not just a few _days'_ abstinence from quality Elise time, but _months  _lol! 

However, now honesty is on the table, I have to admit to a secret desire myself...ie. the emergence of a (good) SS amp that hides a magical equalizer where you can dial in the precise tube signature desired, complete with all the other things we love about tube amps! ..._to perfection_. Plus, it must _look_ good too...after all, there certainly is something special about most tube amps' presence and character. Something sadly lacking in most SS amps, including the V281 I'm afraid! It may well _sound_ great but hey, that _design_? Certainly not by an Italian, I suspect lol! . Now, I _could_ just be tempted, if it looked more like a McIntosh, complete with blue dials!! 

However, as this whole dream is just that alas- a dream, I much prefer being able to 'dial in' different sounds merely by using different tubes, and without having to introduce anything else into the output line. But if you do indeed add the Violectric to your arsenal, it would be great to hear how it compares to your Elise! ...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## Scutey

Blimey h1, for a minute there I thought you were doing a poacher turned gamekeeper! .


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## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> Blimey h1, for a minute there I thought you were doing a poacher turned gamekeeper! .



Fear not S...I doubt the sort of erotic dream I've had will ever come to reality in my lifetime at least (story of my life lol!! . Especially with the kind of sound I'm now hearing from my own Euforia setup......particularly when I preferred it to the highly regarded Questyle CMA 800 SS amp recently (and that was when my T1s were nowhere near at their best...now it's no contest whatsoever! ).


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, McIntosh looks nice too. But I'll keep my pocket safe and continue to use Elise, even if I might be the last user on Earth since all the others upgraded to Euforia. I have to admit that my amp sounds really nice after the latest cable and filter upgrades.


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## UntilThen

Hi Colin @hypnos1 , long time no chat.  Still enjoying your music that's good ! You used to love this 'War of the Worlds'. I'm listening to it now on speakers. It's great ! Enjoy your music !


----------



## mordy

Hi Octavian,
A couple of Head Fiers are owners of both solid state and tube rigs of high quality. My impression is that a good ss system can rival a good tube system and it also seems that the bass may be better. 
One person has a Chinese Violectric clone that costs much less and he claims that it is excellent. (I am not debating the ethics of cloning an expensive German product for almost a third of the price...)
It is a great thing to be able to vary the sound in a tube amp with different tubes. However, I am not as interested in changing the sound as finding the ideal combination for me. Once I find that elusive magical tube complement I intend to stay with it and just enjoy listening.
Until the next "discovery" comes along.....LOL


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> Hi Colin @hypnos1 , long time no chat.  Still enjoying your music that's good ! You used to love this 'War of the Worlds'. I'm listening to it now on speakers. It's great ! Enjoy your music !



Hi there Matt...nice you popped in here - been a long time indeed lol! 

And yes, still enjoying wonderful music...even more so now, with my particular EL11/EL38 combo in Euforia (not to mention the amazing mono crystal OCC silver and copper wire_ everywhere!!_ ). I simply cannot overstate how the EL38 tube transforms our F-A amps...yet another example of a tube that isn't configured for, but can outperform any appropriate 'conventional' tube you care to name (in most cases at least! ).
It's a shame you were so unlucky with your own EL11s...there are a good few unreliable examples out there alas! But with _good_ ones, they are proving to synergise with the EL38 perfectly. For myself, and others, it was a good day when you and mordy encouraged me to go ahead and adapt the EL11 for Elise, after the initial success of the pretty, red-skirted EL3N that caught your eye lol . (But the rare _mesh_ plated versions I so love have never surfaced again since, more's the pity...).

So now, 'War of the Worlds' has an even more special place in my repertoire...along with everything else!! Richard Burton's voice is now _extra_ rich, and the sound effects are truly sensational... 

Glad to hear you too are obviously enjoying this and other music...will that be even greater soon, with a DNA amp in situ?...nice...

Still no further word yet on F-A's new 2A3-based _uber_ flagship amp...wouldn't be surprised if it's being reserved for a sudden appearance at some fancy HiFi Show somewhere - Munich, or Singapore?...time will tell...

Here's wishing you continued HAPPY LISTENING...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi Octavian,
> A couple of Head Fiers are owners of both solid state and tube rigs of high quality. My impression is that a good ss system can rival a good tube system and it also seems that the bass may be better.
> One person has a Chinese Violectric clone that costs much less and he claims that it is excellent. (I am not debating the ethics of cloning an expensive German product for almost a third of the price...)
> It is a great thing to be able to vary the sound in a tube amp with different tubes.* However, I am not as interested in changing the sound as finding the ideal combination for me*. Once I find that elusive magical tube complement I intend to stay with it and just enjoy listening.
> Until the next "discovery" comes along.....LOL



Hi m...and there's the crux of the matter! I can't begin to imagine the logistics of trying dozens (at least!) of different SS amps _in one's own system_ before finding that ideal sound!! . And even then, tastes can and do change over time ...(much easier to then play around with different combos again lol!).

And so IMHO we can only hope that one day the 'dream' amp I mentioned previously does in fact appear like magic...but don't hold your breath!!! Reckon we'll all be enjoying our tubes for a _very_ long time yet, mon ami......CHEERS!...CJ

ps. As for that Chinese V281 clone, who on Earth would want to copy that _exterior_ design lol?!! Unless it's the HA200 _"V281-inspired" _model, which does _look_ nicer at least IMHO!! ...


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## UntilThen (Mar 11, 2019)

Hi Colin, I must admit that the EL38 looks very striking and has good vintage creed.  I have quite a few, new EL11, EL12 and EL12 spez lying around unused. Wish I had a Elise or Euforia to pop them in.

As for the DNA Stratus, there has been a change of direction. I fell in love with vintage Sansui amps that sounds like tube amps, works incredibly good with both headphones and speakers. You will see my posts here.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cal...atched_thread_reply_messagetext#post-14830672

So... after 3 years of head-fi, I wouldn't have thought that I would venture into restored vintage amps but it's a discovery that lit up my eyes and ears... more so the latter. 

Cheers
UT


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## connieflyer

I used to use a vintage Pioneer amp and SA-9100 that I purchased new and it had a great headphone section, used it up until it died, took it in for repair at a Pioneer shop and they said many hundreds to repair and did not want to do it, as there was soooo many 1 percent resistors and other high end components that would have to be replaced to keep the balance, so let it go.  Many years of pleasure out of it. Back when then separates were the way to go.


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## UntilThen

That would have been desirable if you still have it. Even has it’s own hifi rack !


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## UntilThen

And it’s good to hear from you Don. Was wondering why you didn’t post for a while.


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## connieflyer

Have been more active on the Euforia thread, as I sold my Elise after I ordered my Euforia, number 0005, so I don't post here much, read the thread but that's about it.  The rack I made for the above stereo gear,  it was a very good system. Turned in my Fischer 400 towards this system.  Turntable was an Acuutrac 4000, laser guided programmable track selector.  Empire Ve999 stylus, Lots of pleasant times with this.


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## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Have been more active on the Euforia thread, as I sold my Elise after I ordered my Euforia, number 0005, so I don't post here much, read the thread but that's about it.  The rack I made for the above stereo gear,  it was a very good system. Turned in my Fischer 400 towards this system.  Turntable was an Acuutrac 4000, laser guided programmable track selector.  Empire Ve999 stylus, Lots of pleasant times with this.



Nice vintage stuff. Pity you no longer have it.

I'm starting to feel like Skylab. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cal...-receiver-owners.537704/page-156#post-7694813


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## OctavianH (Mar 21, 2019)

I tried guys, but I was not lucky and I cannot bid more:






I am curious about how much will be the final amount of cash. For me, since these are coming from New Zealand, the price is quite big + shipping + customs and stuff... but I tried with 540 USD.

Who knows, maybe sometime I will own a pair of these.

PS. This town is that one I've seen at the News recently, I guess if I'd won this auction the Police would inspect closely my package...


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I tried guys, but I was not lucky and I cannot bid more:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi O, I  saw this sale too, I must admit I was tempted, for a moment at least!, however I knew they would go for crazy money, so didn't bother bidding, problem is of course there's always customs charges too, anyway well done you for trying though!, maybe one day you might get some, you never know!


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## OctavianH (Mar 21, 2019)

I have a "Saved search" on Ebay for "GEC 6AS7G" so I am notified about this product. Last year there was a pair in Sweden at somewhere at 500 EUR... I have doubts these are so good compared to 5998 or 7236 to worth the price, we discuss here about half ot the price of Elise. But I still want to try them.


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## connieflyer

I sold my pair last Oct.for  $250.00 for the pair of 6as7's and $160 for the 6080's to a member here. Looks like I should have waited!! Oh well, they were not being used, have to do more sales for the rest of my tubes.  Got a nice pair of 5998A, and a nice pair of 5998 as well as some EL38's and lots of 6sn7's.   I have found the combo that I am going to stay with now, so doubt if I would need the other tubes. One nice thing about getting older, you don't have to plan for the future!


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## OctavianH

I have no ideea why I still want to try them since I recently switched to 7236 from 5998 to reduce the "bass" quantity and these GEC 6AS7G are regarded by all as "darker" than the others. So most probably they are not a good match for my taste. Anyway, I realized lately that I am not a good tube roller, since I quite roll until I find a combo and then stick to it for a lot of hours. I expect that in the end I will use the same combo forever.


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## UntilThen

This is my GEC. 

$500 US dollars. It don't come cheap but this pair have perfect readings.


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## Scutey

UntilThen said:


> This is my GEC.
> 
> $500 US dollars. It don't come cheap but this pair have perfect readings.


They're certainly great looking tubes .


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## OctavianH (Mar 23, 2019)

I was right when claiming that I'll remain a good amount of time on 7236/CV181. This combo is really very good for me and I have a that feeling of a "clinical precision". Fast, detailed, precise. Like a surgeon. LOL. Now listening to the latest Antimatter album called Black Market Enlightenment which is a delight. The percussion area is blessed with these 7236 which are really slamming.


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## mordy

Hi Octavian,
The trick to get a better price on the GEC A1834/6AS7G/CV2523 is to get the tube under a different brand. There are many of them:
Marconi, MOV, Osram, Ultron. But you have to learn how to identify the tube.
Just found a Dutch seller now - bids starting at $399: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/matched-pa...m4692784d22:g:4-sAAOSwIfBclhnZ&frcectupt=true
Good luck!


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## OctavianH

Thanks mordy, I'll keep an eye on them.


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## lentoviolento

hi guys, i just bought the espressivo mk2 and i love it so much that i am already thinking about upgrading...
has someone compared the elise to euforia , wa2 or glenn otl??
is elise powerful enough? 200mw seem pretty week.


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## attmci

OctavianH said:


> Thanks mordy, I'll keep an eye on them.


Did you get it? Only one bidder.


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## mordy

attmci said:


> Did you get it? Only one bidder.


Hi attmci,
I already have a pair. This pair was bought by UsoppNoKami in Malaysia.


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## angpsi

Hi guys, just a heads up, especially for newcomers in the land of Elise/Euforia: I just revived my old sleeper ad to sell my 6sn7/6080 tubes collection. Tubes are all professionally double-checked for consistency and life span, bundle price is a good bargain for anyone looking to get a solid set of tubes all at once, but also feel free to hit me with requests. For reviews on these tubes see the first post on this thread.

Good to be lurking back into the old neighborhood, hope I find all of you in good health and high spirit!


----------



## hypnos1

angpsi said:


> Hi guys, just a heads up, especially for newcomers in the land of Elise/Euforia: I just revived my old sleeper ad to sell my 6sn7/6080 tubes collection. Tubes are all professionally double-checked for consistency and life span, bundle price is a good bargain for anyone looking to get a solid set of tubes all at once, but also feel free to hit me with requests. For reviews on these tubes see the first post on this thread.
> 
> Good to be lurking back into the old neighborhood, hope I find all of you in good health and high spirit!



Hi angpsi...a belated good to hear from you! Health could be better for a few of us at the moment it would appear, but spirits not dampened too much lol . Hope you yourself are managing to steer clear of the various bugs going around!!

There are a good few other amps that use those tubes also of course, so hopefully you can manage to get a decent deal for yours. Good luck...and best wishes, CJ


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## hypnos1

lentoviolento said:


> hi guys, i just bought the espressivo mk2 and i love it so much that i am already thinking about upgrading...
> has someone compared the elise to euforia , wa2 or glenn otl??
> is elise powerful enough? 200mw seem pretty week.



Hi lv...thinking of upgrading already lol? Looks like you've caught the bug _big_ time!! 

All I can say is that those who have gone from Elise to Euforia agree that it is indeed a good upgrade, but all depends on the budget of course! And Elise is no slouch!

And on the subject of Elise, may I just repeat here your query on the Elise 'New Thread' re. a friend of yours stating he didn't think it was in fact a 'pure' OTL amp. Would welcome anyone else's take on this, because I myself can't quite understand that statement...and can only ask that he give more precise details as to why. Would be very interested, personally....CJ


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## OctavianH (Apr 27, 2019)

lentoviolento said:


> hi guys, i just bought the espressivo mk2 and i love it so much that i am already thinking about upgrading...
> has someone compared the elise to euforia , wa2 or glenn otl??
> is elise powerful enough? 200mw seem pretty week.



I am a happy owner of an Elise and I can consider it powerful enough for every headphone up to 32 Ohm. I would say you should not worry about that.
By the way, judging from your signature you plan to use it with Verite which, as far as I know, have 300 Ohms, do not worry about Elise on these high impedance cans.

In short words, the Feliks Audio Elise effect on people:


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## lentoviolento

My only concern, is that i would not here all these differences between espressivo and elise to justify the difference in price... I don't know what to do.. 
I don't drink so the elise would not have that effect on me lol


----------



## OctavianH

lentoviolento said:


> My only concern, is that i would not here all these differences between espressivo and elise to justify the difference in price... I don't know what to do..
> I don't drink so the elise would not have that effect on me lol



I have not owned Expressivo, but I have owned for some years the Littledot MKII which uses the same tubes as Echo (6N6 and 6N1). And Expressivo is somewhere between Echo and Elise but closer to Echo judging by the tube types used. The difference from Littkedot MK2 to Elise was big. But I guess a very important factor was also the new tube types Elise was using, which are in a new league. In the past I tried to use 6SN7 and C3g on MK2 via adapters and I was not quite pleased. The amp was not designed for them and it was not properly powering them, in Elise they sound totally different. What I am trying to say is that Elise is a different "animal" than the amps using 6N6, 6N1 or 6H30 tubes. But this is partially caused by the tube types and tube rolling possibilities. And a very important factor is also the environment in which you are using your amp. I learned a lot in the last 3 years and I have to say the following:
- cables matters, powers not so much but a lot the interconnects (RCA cables)
- power conditioning matters, filter your AC and you will hear 20% improvement on the same amp
- headphones matching matters, decide what headphone you will use before making an upgrade and then upgrade for that specific headphone
Keep in mind that Elise will not mean only to pay for the amp but to pay for better tubes and 6SN7 and 6AS7 tubes are more expenssive than the rest. I paid for my tubes which I am currently using somewhere at 500 EUR after I bought Elise at 1200 EUR. So, plan also the tube upgrades alongside Elise.
And very important is what genre of music you are listening. Many of the people here are on the jazz/classical area and in that area Euforia might excel because it provides a fuller sound compared to Elise. In my case, I am listening 90% to rock and I honestly do not need bass or a fuller sound, I need a piece of speed and harshness. This is the reason I am not convinced Euforia is the amp for me. But in my case I have the choice of an SS and an Tube amp to choose depending on the recording.
What I would do in your place before any upgrade is to prepare the environment. Upgrade cables, upgrade power sources, filter AC and see how the Espressivo evolves. In my case I obtained, let's say, 30% of better sound quality only starting to improve what I was using for MK2. You can see a lot of advices about this on EUFORIA thread.

I hope my honest opinon will provide you a better overall feeling about what Elise/Euforia mean compared to Espresivo.


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## lentoviolento

Mmm.. I am not into tube rolling so i would stick with the stock tubes. And honestly i wouldn't want to upgrade all this cables 
Also i change hps very often...


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## lentoviolento

Thank you for your exaustive response though


----------



## lentoviolento

on euforia thread i read somewhere that someone was complaining about the lack of bass/slam. to me is very important.
espressivo has good bass. i am thinking about asking feliks to let me try elise for a couple of weeks and decide to keep it or not.


----------



## OctavianH

I do not think that Euforia is lacking something compared to Espressivo. In general with these tube amps my problem is usually to lower the bass quantity. And Euforia has a bigger/better bass than Elise. So do not worry about bass in tube amps. And of course, if you can try it, it will always be the best way to go.


----------



## lentoviolento

Don't worry? You are telling me that elise has less bass of euforia! Now i am worrying asd


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## Scutey

lentoviolento said:


> Don't worry? You are telling me that elise has less bass of euforia! Now i am worrying asd


Hi there, I hope I'm not going to make this even more confusing!, ... but the Elise has excellent bass, of course this depends on tubes used, recording, the rest of your setup, Headphones etc but if you use bassy tubes, with Elise such as Tung Sol 5998 for powers, Ken Rad 6sn7 for drivers, or EL38 for drivers (ADAPTER NEEDED) with EL11 or EL3N (ADAPTER NEEDED) for drivers also give excellent bass with good slam, Octavian is right about Euforia having fuller bass but with those tubes you will get very good, dynamic bass with the Elise, also I agree with everything else Octavian has said! .


----------



## lentoviolento

Tung sol are very expensive and not so easy to find here in italy.. 
What do you think about the stock tubes? Are they so bad to need replacement from day one?


----------



## UntilThen

lentoviolento said:


> Tung sol are very expensive and not so easy to find here in italy..
> What do you think about the stock tubes? Are they so bad to need replacement from day one?



No you don't need to replace stock tubes from day 1. 

There are different types of honey. The stock honey aren't too bad. Hell, 'Stairway to heaven' will still sound like 'Stairway to heaven'. However once you've tasted the better honey tubes, it's hard to go back to stock honey.

Hope all this honey business makes sense. Now listen to 'Stairway to heaven'.


----------



## Scutey

UntilThen said:


> No you don't need to replace stock tubes from day 1.
> 
> There are different types of honey. The stock honey aren't too bad. Hell, 'Stairway to heaven' will still sound like 'Stairway to heaven'. However once you've tasted the better honey tubes, it's hard to go back to stock honey.
> 
> Hope all this honey business makes sense. Now listen to 'Stairway to heaven'.



Can't really add anything to that!


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I was right when claiming that I'll remain a good amount of time on 7236/CV181. This combo is really very good for me and I have a that feeling of a "clinical precision". Fast, detailed, precise. Like a surgeon. LOL. Now listening to the latest Antimatter album called Black Market Enlightenment which is a delight. The percussion area is blessed with these 7236 which are really slamming.



Wow this picture of Elise looks nice ! Amongst all my good power tubes, I still have the love for the Tung Sol 7236. Precision and dynamics.


----------



## UntilThen

angpsi said:


> Hi guys, just a heads up, especially for newcomers in the land of Elise/Euforia: I just revived my old sleeper ad to sell my 6sn7/6080 tubes collection. Tubes are all professionally double-checked for consistency and life span, bundle price is a good bargain for anyone looking to get a solid set of tubes all at once, but also feel free to hit me with requests. For reviews on these tubes see the first post on this thread.
> 
> Good to be lurking back into the old neighborhood, hope I find all of you in good health and high spirit!



Angpsi !!! When ever I see your name, I'm reminded of Breakfast Club !  Trust that you are well and have move on to HiFi stereo.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi angpsi...a belated good to hear from you! Health could be better for a few of us at the moment it would appear, but spirits not dampened too much lol . Hope you yourself are managing to steer clear of the various bugs going around!!
> 
> There are a good few other amps that use those tubes also of course, so hopefully you can manage to get a decent deal for yours. Good luck...and best wishes, CJ



Hello H1, trust that you are well. Thread isn't the same when you retire. 

It's almost 4 years since I came to Head-Fi. Logic tells me I should have move on to the next hobby but the next one would probably be even more expensive !!!

So this is my progression. Car audio > Head-Fi > HiFi. Time to retire !!! Alas I'm still working.


----------



## connieflyer

Never!


----------



## UntilThen

connieflyer said:


> Never!



Don !!!! Never say never again, that's the James Bond movie. 

How are you? Is the 'never' to work or retire from Head-Fi?


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Hello H1, trust that you are well. Thread isn't the same when you retire.
> 
> It's almost 4 years since I came to Head-Fi. Logic tells me I should have move on to the next hobby but the next one would probably be even more expensive !!!
> 
> So this is my progression. Car audio > Head-Fi > HiFi. Time to retire !!! Alas I'm still working.


What happened to the bicycles?


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> What happened to the bicycles?



It's kept till 40 years later as vintage racing bicycle.


----------



## mordy

Here is a fun piece - one piano, two piano players - who outplays whom? :


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## OctavianH (Apr 28, 2019)

UntilThen said:


> Logic tells me I should have move on to the next hobby but the next one would probably be even more expensive !!!
> 
> So this is my progression. Car audio > Head-Fi > HiFi. Time to retire !!! Alas I'm still working.



You can start gaming. Last time I built my gaming rig it costed me 5000 EUR. I say that gaming and mobile phones are the areas where prices jumped to unreal values in the latest years. For example, if you want to buy the latest Note 10 you will, most probably, pay the price of Euforia... Crazy times we are living.


----------



## UntilThen

I will use the brick flip phone that Arnie used in the Terminator. 

Well my iPhone X is just a year old so no upgrade for another year !

I ain't that young anymore to get a gaming PC. Besides I use computers everyday at work. Although I think I will get a new PC with silent power for a quiet source. Had enough of the Auralic Aries. PC is more convenient for me to access Tidal HiFi and Youtube. 

Eventually I will return to how it all began. With an iPod and earbud.


----------



## lentoviolento

I wrote feliks... I will try it myself. It is the only way to get a clear idea of what it sounds with my zmf aeolus and (i hope soon) verite


----------



## hypnos1

UntilThen said:


> I will use the brick flip phone that Arnie used in the Terminator.
> 
> Well my iPhone X is just a year old so no upgrade for another year !
> 
> ...



Hi UT...am soldiering on, thanks...but retirement (from work!) isn't always quite what it's cracked up to be lol! . Best, methinks, to enter _semi_-retirement, with plenty of time allowed for quality _music_ appreciation!! ...(and Heaven forbid you should lose such enthusiasm as to settle for ipod + bud!!!  ).

I hear you re. the _convenience_ of PC, but so much to sort out and get right to maintain _quality_, no?!...(computer noise, USB gremlins etc. etc....)....CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

lentoviolento said:


> I wrote feliks... I will try it myself. It is the only way to get a clear idea of what it sounds with my zmf aeolus and (i hope soon) verite



Hi lv...yours is not the only such dilemna facing anyone in this hobby of ours alas. Others' findings/impressions can only ever be a _rough_ guide, to be sure. I do hope you mange to try out different gear without having to lose out too much in the process...not easy, in most cases . I count myself extremely fortunate that a Meze Empyrean distributor here in the UK was willing to let me try a pair on a no obligation basis...not that I needed very long to recognise their magic anyway lol! But you never know just how a different piece of gear is going to 'synergise' with everything else...GOOD LUCK!...CJ


----------



## lentoviolento

i also want to see if 200mw of max output power is enough. 
i am curious! do you drive your meze with elisE?


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## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UT...am soldiering on, thanks...but retirement (from work!) isn't always quite what it's cracked up to be lol! . Best, methinks, to enter _semi_-retirement, with plenty of time allowed for quality _music_ appreciation!! ...(and Heaven forbid you should lose such enthusiasm as to settle for ipod + bud!!!  ).
> 
> I hear you re. the _convenience_ of PC, but so much to sort out and get right to maintain _quality_, no?!...(computer noise, USB gremlins etc. etc....)....CHEERS!...CJ



Of course I am kidding. Having tasted the good honey, it's impossible to return to iPod and earbud. 

A silent PC is ok for casual listening plus convenience. I could have bought a dedicated player like your Naim but again this PC is acceptable. If I needed audiophile quality, I can always turn to my Rega RP8 turntable and Pioneer CD player..... or I could jump on the drum set in the lounge and do a John Bonham. Again I kid you because I can't play the drums. It's my son's.

So right now I have a vintage Sansui AU-717 which I adore with my Audeze LCD-3f and HD800 but.... there will be another tube amp coming.... to end my journey. Which is it? Don't know yet and I'm not in a hurry. 

As for retirement, it's still a few years away. Will be starting a new contract soon and finishing off my present one. 

I wish you well and much happiness with your music and setup. Take care and enjoy.

UT


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## hypnos1 (Apr 28, 2019)

lentoviolento said:


> i also want to see if 200mw of max output power is enough.
> i am curious! do you drive your meze with elisE?



Hi again lv.

My Elise went back for some upgrades I asked for...and it became the Euforia lol!  And I'm happy to say that she drives my Empys just as easily - if not _better!_ - than my 600ohm Beyer T1s. (With mesh plate EL11 drivers and early Philips/Dario EL38 powers in situ). Certainly wasn't expecting that! However, the Mezes are proving to be much easier to drive than most other planars...amazing design!  This is now one _really_ happy bunny ...


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## hypnos1 (Apr 28, 2019)

UntilThen said:


> Of course I am kidding. Having tasted the good honey, it's impossible to return to iPod and earbud.
> 
> A silent PC is ok for casual listening plus convenience. I could have bought a dedicated player like your Naim but again this PC is acceptable. If I needed audiophile quality, I can always turn to my Rega RP8 turntable and Pioneer CD player..... or I could jump on the drum set in the lounge and do a John Bonham. Again I kid you because I can't play the drums. It's my son's.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, UT...save up your $$$$ and wait to see F-A's (still!) upcoming new 2A3-based_; fully _balanced; specially commissioned output trafo; headphone (plus STAX option!) _and_ speaker amp. I can pretty well guarantee that just to _see_ it is to _want_ it lol!  Enough to bring one back out of retirement and work _doubly_ hard!! (But not an option for yours truly alas ...would have to hope F-A _give_ me one...can pigs fly after all?!! ). Ah well, perchance to dream...


----------



## connieflyer

HI guys, it is kind of ironic isn't it, that CJ sends his Elise in for upgrades, and we get Euforia.  Well, that is a windfall for Feliks to be sure.  Wonder if CJ did not send his Elise in, would FA have improved the Elise, or moved on to a new chasis and design.  I think that they would have waited a bit longer and then came out with a new design.  It would make more sense to come out with a new product for their line of amps, than have two to chose from that are in reality close to the same design, with one being more substantial in the results share.  I had the Elise and while a fine amp, the Euforia is better in all depts.  Not life and death different, but I was quite pleased with the result. Now with the tube rolling finding that the Euforia responds very well with different tubes.  I have used it with the vaulted GEC's 6AS7's and GEC 6080's, the Tung Sol 5998's, the Ken-Rad 6sn7's, Sylvania, RCA, T-S, and many others. The EL 11, and EL 12 Spez, were tops for awhile, great resolution. But the ones so far that have given me the most have been the Mullard EL 38's, as powers and Valvo EL 11 as drivers. These seem to touch all the bases, enough so that I sold off the GEC's and some other tubes, and will be selling off the rest as well. The tubes I will keep will be the El38's and EL11's, and if in the future an even better combo arises, I may try them, but for now, this is very satisfying,  I am looking into the Meze Emp's, I recently upgraded the headphone cable from a Norne Draug 2 to the newest Draug 3, and it made a very good upgrade to the Senn 800, but I think that this is as far as the Senn can go. So to get the most out of the Euforia, I MAY pick up a Meze, I have a good lead on one, and may take it depending on the price.  But for now, this is the best that I have heard from the setup.  I have upgraded the cables, power enhancements, Dac, and music streamer, NAS, and now the headphone cable all for the Euforia.  Beyond this point, the only path up, would be the phones or a new amp. All in I have upwards of $6 grand in just the headphone system, so don't thing anything much can be done to enhance what I am hearing, without major investment, so I am a happy camper (for now!), will have to see what is in the future but that is for later.  Good luck folks.


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## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> HI guys, it is kind of ironic isn't it, that CJ sends his Elise in for upgrades, and we get Euforia.  Well, that is a windfall for Feliks to be sure.  Wonder if CJ did not send his Elise in, would FA have improved the Elise, or moved on to a new chasis and design.  I think that they would have waited a bit longer and then came out with a new design.  It would make more sense to come out with a new product for their line of amps, than have two to chose from that are in reality close to the same design, with one being more substantial in the results share.  I had the Elise and while a fine amp, the Euforia is better in all depts.  Not life and death different, but I was quite pleased with the result. Now with the tube rolling finding that the Euforia responds very well with different tubes.  I have used it with the vaulted GEC's 6AS7's and GEC 6080's, the Tung Sol 5998's, the Ken-Rad 6sn7's, Sylvania, RCA, T-S, and many others. The EL 11, and EL 12 Spez, were tops for awhile, great resolution. But the ones so far that have given me the most have been the Mullard EL 38's, as powers and Valvo EL 11 as drivers. These seem to touch all the bases, enough so that I sold off the GEC's and some other tubes, and will be selling off the rest as well. The tubes I will keep will be the El38's and EL11's, and if in the future an even better combo arises, I may try them, but for now, this is very satisfying,  I am looking into the Meze Emp's, I recently upgraded the headphone cable from a Norne Draug 2 to the newest Draug 3, and it made a very good upgrade to the Senn 800, but I think that this is as far as the Senn can go. So to get the most out of the Euforia, I MAY pick up a Meze, I have a good lead on one, and may take it depending on the price.  But for now, this is the best that I have heard from the setup.  I have upgraded the cables, power enhancements, Dac, and music streamer, NAS, and now the headphone cable all for the Euforia.  Beyond this point, the only path up, would be the phones or a new amp. All in I have upwards of $6 grand in just the headphone system, so don't thing anything much can be done to enhance what I am hearing, without major investment, so I am a happy camper (for now!), will have to see what is in the future but that is for later.  Good luck folks.



Hi cf. 

Well, all I can say is you're an inspiration to us all lol!  Plus, I thought I was the only one to have fallen so far down that flamin' rabbit hole!! 

But, like me, I'm sure you finally regard it is well worthwhile nonetheless (??!!) 

ps. My guilt at encouraging folks to upgrade everything else in the chain must surely be reaching its zenith, with my drooling over the rather nice(!) Meze Empyreans...already feel I'm number 1 on the hit list of a good few wallets!!. (Could there possibly be more than _*one*_ rabbit hole out there? )....HAPPY LISTENING...CJ


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## connieflyer

Well, CJ, what rabbit hole?  I never saw, one, all that happened was that the Earth opened up in front of me, and I tried srambling as fast as I could up out of the hole, spending here and there, until I finally made a foot hold on solid ground and could look back at the large hole that had opened up, and smiled that I had escaped with my life (if nothing else)!!!.  Do I regret following in your footsteps and spending so much?  Not a bit. Every upgrade has made a difference  in my listening pleasure and enjoyment of music. It is a mainstay in my life and always has been. So the money spent was worth the outcome. Happy and content with what I have now to aid my enjoyment, with an eye to more of the same should it arise. But also being satisfied that with the upgrades I have done, I am at peace with what I have spent.  Each step was worthwhile, and if I had died at any point in the quest, I would have gone out with a smile that I had made good decisions on the upgrade path to that point. Now if I live another twenty years, I may be in trouble!  Peace


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## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Well, CJ, what rabbit hole?  I never saw, one, all that happened was that the Earth opened up in front of me, and I tried srambling as fast as I could up out of the hole, spending here and there, until I finally made a foot hold on solid ground and could look back at the large hole that had opened up, and smiled that I had escaped with my life (if nothing else)!!!.  Do I regret following in your footsteps and spending so much?  Not a bit. Every upgrade has made a difference  in my listening pleasure and enjoyment of music. It is a mainstay in my life and always has been. So the money spent was worth the outcome. Happy and content with what I have now to aid my enjoyment, with an eye to more of the same should it arise. But also being satisfied that with the upgrades I have done, I am at peace with what I have spent.  Each step was worthwhile, and if I had died at any point in the quest, I would have gone out with a smile that I had made good decisions on the upgrade path to that point. Now if I live another twenty years, I may be in trouble!  Peace



Ah yes indeed, cf....it's no rabbit hole that engulfs us...it's a darn great Floridian *sink hole *lol! . But hopefully one we can all eventually emerge from not _too_ much the worse for wear....

And yes also....for me personally, I can't think of any other hobby where I'd be so happy with the return on investment (and certainly far better than watching the savings _lose_ value by the day!!!).

In addition, there's a great deal of satisfaction (along with occasional frustration!) that comes from discovering that what one thought to be an 'end game' sound can, in fact, be tweaked even further...hence the need for a bigger hole than a mere bunny can manage!! 

ps. Am working on what to do next to occupy your/our/everyone's further twenty years..._so be warned!..._CHEERS!...


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## connieflyer

Glad to see you are looking out for us! Would expect nothing less! Could not agree more on your assessment of our hobby(?) but it is so enjoyable to upgrade and get to listen to music you have listened to over the years and find more music there than what was there before.  Well, done my friend.


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## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Glad to see you are looking out for us! Would expect nothing less! Could not agree more on your assessment of our hobby(?) but it is so enjoyable to upgrade and get to listen to music you have listened to over the years and find more music there than what was there before.  Well, done my friend.



Thanks cf...and I wish you - and all - many years of happy music listening to come...


----------



## lentoviolento

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again lv.
> 
> My Elise went back for some upgrades I asked for...and it became the Euforia lol!  And I'm happy to say that she drives my Empys just as easily - if not _better!_ - than my 600ohm Beyer T1s. (With mesh plate EL11 drivers and early Philips/Dario EL38 powers in situ). Certainly wasn't expecting that! However, the Mezes are proving to be much easier to drive than most other planars...amazing design!  This is now one _really_ happy bunny ...




What upgrades did you ask? 
I am a bit confused about some things.. 
I read everywhere that lcd4 is the most power hungry hp, but someone drives it with euforia. Even the lcd3 that shouldn't be easy to drive, with my espressivo sounded very good. So what 's the fuzz about outpower? Also, otl shouldn't be able to pair well with low impedence hps, but still, someone use euforia and elise with meze..
I want to try elise also to clear my mind and see for myself. 
If there will not be enough difference between my espressivo, i will ship it back and end my journey with amps. With a good otl and a good solid state (vio200) i can live happy.


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## angpsi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi angpsi...a belated good to hear from you! Health could be better for a few of us at the moment it would appear, but spirits not dampened too much lol . Hope you yourself are managing to steer clear of the various bugs going around!!
> 
> There are a good few other amps that use those tubes also of course, so hopefully you can manage to get a decent deal for yours. Good luck...and best wishes, CJ


Hey CJ,

So good to hear from all of you guys! Looks like Feliks evolved quite a lot since the first gen adopters! Honestly I was a bit worried with the price increase because they'd have to go against well established products with pedigree but they seem to be doing quite nicely and get high praise from seasoned reviewers!

Please don't joke around with these health issue mentions; last time someone mentioned health issues to me was hardly a simple issue so I really hope what you're referring to is plain flu or similar.

All things go as expected, the tubes have already found their new home in Switzerland with someone who I believe you are familiar with in connection to a pair of hand soldered EL12.


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## angpsi (Apr 28, 2019)

UntilThen said:


> Angpsi !!! When ever I see your name, I'm reminded of Breakfast Club !  Trust that you are well and have move on to HiFi stereo.


Hey UT! This is truly turning into a reunion!

I was in hiatus for a while, enjoying the benefits of mingling with a wonderful local group in Athens, Greece and having the opportunity to audition/listen to some truly impressive reference systems (we're talking MSB, ASR, etc. plus some impressive vinyl rigs!). May I remind you that I came _into _head-fi _from_ hi-fi, not the other way around!

But, in regards to head-fi, since I sold the Elise I got the incredible chance to own a truly TOTL set for a while, the D8000 from Final Audio, then sold it in pursuit of other endeavors (including the long game of getting a reference grade DAC for my stereo system). In the meantime, I also experimented a bit with IEMS and eventually I got a pair of FLC8s. Finally, I recently I got the opportunity to buy an SPL Auditor so it looks like I'm turning solid state once again (but I expect my Mojo to provide enough mellowness on the final sound signature)! And in a somewhat quirky impulse buy, I also got a pair of vintage AKG 240 sextette to match the high output impedance SPL.

So, as you see, I'm still well into the head-fi game! And what about you? I trust your Glenn is serving you well?


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## hypnos1

lentoviolento said:


> What upgrades did you ask?
> I am a bit confused about some things..
> I read everywhere that lcd4 is the most power hungry hp, but someone drives it with euforia. Even the lcd3 that shouldn't be easy to drive, with my espressivo sounded very good. So what 's the fuzz about outpower? Also, otl shouldn't be able to pair well with low impedence hps, but still, someone use euforia and elise with meze..
> I want to try elise also to clear my mind and see for myself.
> If there will not be enough difference between my espressivo, i will ship it back and end my journey with amps. With a good otl and a good solid state (vio200) i can live happy.



Hi lv....you're not the only one who gets confused by what's supposed, or _not_ supposed to work well with certain other equipment lol! 

And stated 'power output' can also be very misleading - in tube amps especially! An apparently very low 'watts' figure, compared to solid state for example, is still able to drive transducers far better than would be expected.

'Impedance matching' is yet another contentious issue. OTL tube amps have traditionally been regarded as unlikely to drive_ low _impedance/planar magnetic headphones to best advantage, as tube output is normally quite _high _impedance. But Feliks-Audio specifically configured Elise and Euforia especially so as to be able to drive low impedance cans more efficiently than usual (not sure exactly how they managed it lol!...but helped, I believe, by using 2 double triode drivers - each parallelled - rather than just a single double triode ). Whatever, it certainly seems to work!!

The upgrades to Elise that I asked for were basically : pure silver wire throughout the signal path; better transformer; much better sockets; better capacitors and resistors; better cooling. Then F-A added soft-start function later.

If you can indeed return Elise if not satisfied, then that's a great offer. And whichever amp you keep, I'm sure you can continue to live happily..._ever after??!!_ ...(have heard this a good few times before lol...including from myself!! )....GOOD LUCK!...CJ


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## OctavianH (May 5, 2019)

It seems WASP loves Elise. By the way, Re-Idolized is a majestic piece of art.


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## WolfP

Hi all,

how is the Elise with Grado headphones? Is it a good match?


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## OctavianH

I cannot say anything about Grado headphones because my only pair of Grados are already sold. It was an SR325is which sounded very bright and harsh with my former SS amps. At that time I did not had any tube amp to try them, but from a generic point of view I would not pair a low impedance headphone with a tube amp. Maybe some people will not agree with me, but for me these OTL tube amps are handling better 250+ Ohm headphones.

After reaching a stable state with my headphone line which was heavily upgraded with better cables, power supply equipment and USB filtering I realized that my former assessments for several tube combos are not valid anymore. So today I started a second "trial and error" tournament in order to find out what is the current favorite combo or at least to re-evaluate the former assumptions.
So I took the latest Darkthrone album and started to roll.






The combo I was using for a few months (Psvane CV181T2 + Tung Sol 5998) seemed to have not enough bass for my taste, so I decided to try the Foton 6H8C as driver.






But this combo did not had the sound I was expecting and it was too forgiving for my taste. So I remembered that I have somewhere a pair of EL12N.






This combo was nice but a little bit harsh on this particular album, so I have decided to try some EL3N.






This pairing was really interesting for me, since it got the best from this album. I guess it is my first experience with EL tubes when I can say they please me.

This is the beauty of tube rolling. For me it is a kind of hardware equalizer which allows you to enjoy the same song with different flavors. It is not cheap, nor easy, but it provides you an incredible experience.
I know my post is not bringing anything new to the table, but at least is adding a little bit of color to this old forgotten thread. It seems that after 15 months I am still rediscovering my Elise.


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## mordy

OctavianH said:


> I cannot say anything about Grado headphones because my only pair of Grados are already sold. It was an SR325is which sounded very bright and harsh with my former SS amps. At that time I did not had any tube amp to try them, but from a generic point of view I would not pair a low impedance headphone with a tube amp. Maybe some people will not agree with me, but for me these OTL tube amps are handling better 250+ Ohm headphones.
> 
> After reaching a stable state with my headphone line which was heavily upgraded with better cables, power supply equipment and USB filtering I realized that my former assessments for several tube combos are not valid anymore. So today I started a second "trial and error" tournament in order to find out what is the current favorite combo or at least to re-evaluate the former assumptions.
> So I took the latest Darkthrone album and started to roll.
> ...


Hi Octavian,
I have experienced a number of times what you are describing. Tubes that did not sound that great or special suddenly shine with a new combination or set-up. It's all about synergy.
This is one reason why I don't like to sell tubes I own - you never know when somebody will discover a new combination that sounds great, and then you may need that tube that has been collecting dust in the bin....


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## OctavianH (May 31, 2019)

I think we have to discover our amp several times and it will not be enough. I have to thank you again @mordy for your advice regarding the Foton 6H8C "ribbed anode" which I was able to find and I own now 6 pieces. It has become quite rare lately but it is, indeed, a very special tube. Here are 4 from my 6 pieces, 2 x '53 and 2 x '55 :






Regarding tubes I haven't enjoyed in the past, I own 8 x EL3N from Philips so I really want to start an obsession with them...


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> I think we have to discover our amp several times and it will not be enough. I have to thank you again @mordy for your advice regarding the Foton 6H8C "ribbed anode" which I was able to find and I own now 6 pieces. It has become quite rare lately but it is, indeed, a very special tube. Here are 4 from my 6 pieces, 2 x '53 and 2 x '55 :


One pair I ordered disappeared in the US customs almost two years ago. I assume that the tubes were seized because they mistook the silver getter flash for mercury.......
Luckily, PayPal reimbursed me.


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## OctavianH

I watched lately the Chernobyl mini-series from HBO and today when I put these on Elise I was thinking if maybe the russians used them in some nuclear power plant. I know it is silly but somehow funny. Anyway, I searched for others and it seems these "ribbed anode" are very rare now and I do not intend to sell any piece of them.


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## mordy

There is a German seller called JACMusic. He has a very interesting website with tons of interesting information and pictures. I read there a section about radioactive tubes that he will not sell (or touch) but could not find the exact link at the moment.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I cannot say anything about Grado headphones because my only pair of Grados are already sold. It was an SR325is which sounded very bright and harsh with my former SS amps. At that time I did not had any tube amp to try them, but from a generic point of view I would not pair a low impedance headphone with a tube amp. Maybe some people will not agree with me, but for me these OTL tube amps are handling better 250+ Ohm headphones.
> 
> After reaching a stable state with my headphone line which was heavily upgraded with better cables, power supply equipment and USB filtering I realized that my former assessments for several tube combos are not valid anymore. So today I started a second "trial and error" tournament in order to find out what is the current favorite combo or at least to re-evaluate the former assumptions.
> So I took the latest Darkthrone album and started to roll.
> ...


excellent pics as always O, and yes sadly not much as activity on here lately so well done you for posting! . Also you have said everything that is good about tube amps and tube rolling, yes solid state amps are good, but tubes are just so much more engaging, and like you occasionally I like to go back and revisit old tubes, just in case my thoughts have changed, after all we might discover a long lost favourite! .


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## OctavianH (Jun 1, 2019)

mordy said:


> There is a German seller called JACMusic. He has a very interesting website with tons of interesting information and pictures. I read there a section about radioactive tubes that he will not sell (or touch) but could not find the exact link at the moment.



I guess this one?
https://jacmusic.com/nos/Triodes.html

They say they are modernizing the website, and they should do it, because on a 2K wide monitor like mine the website looks like:


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## attmci

OctavianH said:


> It seems WASP loves Elise. By the way, Re-Idolized is a majestic piece of art.


Very nice!


----------



## OctavianH

Well guys, sad days came upon my kingdom. The left driver of my T1.2 is dead and at the moment I have a very nice discussion with Beyerdynamic support and the local distributor who are passing the "dead cat" from one to another. Beyerdynamic tells me to go to the local distributor while the local distributor tells me he has not contractual agreement to service my headphones and the warranty should be covered by Beyerdynamic. The headphones were bought from Amazon.de somewhere 3 years ago and normally Beyerdynamic provided global warranty of 5 years using his local distributors. The only problem seems to be that these guys do not know or do not want to know about that. Anyway, let's hope I will be able to solve the problem. But the question remains, these flagships have such a disappointing lifetime?
And of course, some bad news never come alone. The driver died exactly when somebody borrowed me to try some DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix cables which seem to be very nice, at least this is what my right ear is telling me. And they are incredible flexible, so I will most probably keep them and pay the guy, of course, after I will fix the T1 problem somehow and ask my left ear about them.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Well guys, sad days came upon my kingdom. The left driver of my T1.2 is dead and at the moment I have a very nice discussion with Beyerdynamic support and the local distributor who are passing the "dead cat" from one to another. Beyerdynamic tells me to go to the local distributor while the local distributor tells me he has not contractual agreement to service my headphones and the warranty should be covered by Beyerdynamic. The headphones were bought from Amazon.de somewhere 3 years ago and normally Beyerdynamic provided global warranty of 5 years using his local distributors. The only problem seems to be that these guys do not know or do not want to know about that. Anyway, let's hope I will be able to solve the problem. But the question remains, these flagships have such a disappointing lifetime?
> And of course, some bad news never come alone. The driver died exactly when somebody borrowed me to try some DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix cables which seem to be very nice, at least this is what my right ear is telling me. And they are incredible flexible, so I will most probably keep them and pay the guy, of course, after I will fix the T1 problem somehow and ask my left ear about them.


That's incredible bad luck O and sadly I can't say I'm surprised that you're having trouble with Beyerdynamic, a good company should always honour their warranty, you'll certainly need to be firm and persistent with them, it sounds like they are trying to "wriggle out" of their responsibilities, anyway, good luck my firend! .


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## OctavianH

As we all know, a good company is always judged by the moment you need them to fulfil their promises. So things will be solved in a way or another, but I would like to send them a bill also for my time lost in support tickets, which is my precious resource. In the meantime I will order a new pair of T1, because I quite like them. And of course, I will not renounce of my warranty claims for the first pair. I thought a little bit about Empyreans but in the end I decided to remain to T1, at least for a couple of years. Most probably 3, since T1 fails after 3 years of usage as I've experienced lately. Anyway another funny thing is that I wanted to check the price of the Black Edition and found that they are available only in the german store. Great job Beyerdynamic...


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> As we all know, a good company is always judged by the moment you need them to fulfil their promises. So things will be solved in a way or another, but I would like to send them a bill also for my time lost in support tickets, which is my precious resource. In the meantime I will order a new pair of T1, because I quite like them. And of course, I will not renounce of my warranty claims for the first pair. I thought a little bit about Empyreans but in the end I decided to remain to T1, at least for a couple of years. Most probably 3, since T1 fails after 3 years of usage as I've experienced lately. Anyway another funny thing is that I wanted to check the price of the Black Edition and found that they are available only in the german store. Great job Beyerdynamic...


Hi Octavian,
I had an excellent experience with Beyerdynamic Customer Service in the US. Bought my T1 used and no warranty. After two years I tried a tube that turned out to be defective and blew out one driver. (Since then I ALWAYS try out new tubes or combinations with a cheap pair of headphones before I plug in the T1s.)
Anyhow, contacted Beyerdynamic. A new set of drivers is $250, but they offered an option to try to match my driver with a used driver for $10(!) + labor and shipping. I ended up paying a total of $60 for everything, including shipping both ways, and I am very happy with the results.
Did you try to contact the manufacturer in Germany and straighten out the warranty claim? Another avenue to try is to contact Amazon as well. In the US all sellers are scared of Amazon and bad reviews, and Amazon may help you to settle the issues.


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## OctavianH (Jun 11, 2019)

Hi Mordy,

I do hope I will be able to say the same as you. It the US things are much more simple since they have an authorised service partner. In EU they work with their distributors and at the moment nothing happens. I wait for Beyerdynamic DE to contact me, I opened a support ticket 2 days ago.
In the meantime I wrote to all 3 local distributors, one of them claims he has no contractual agreement, other asked for details and the third has not answered at all. We will see, I want them fixed by someone who can provide the skills and quality of the manufacturer.

Anyway, I am a proud candidate for Guinness Book at the category OTL owner without any headphone to listen at home.


----------



## richdytch

Well I don't know if I've become less judgemental in my old age, or easier to please, but I'm STILL using the Mullard 6080/smoked glass RCA VT-231 combo I was using a while ago, and still with my old HE400. I've just adopted a policy of leaving the amp switched on for a least an hour before doing any listening. Happy days.


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## OctavianH

I still use Psvane CV181T2/Tung Sol 5998 for almost 2 years and I could not find anything better. And yes, I still hear improvement after 1-2 hours of use.


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## connieflyer (Jun 13, 2019)

I'm sorry to hear that your T1 has given up the ghost. A couple of years ago I bought T1 version 1 from Amazon and within 30 days to left driver failed but the distributor would not honor it. He would not exchange it either. I did get a refund from Amazon but I was quite disappointed with the distributor and the way that they operated. That was when I switched over to a Sennheiser 800 and have not looked back yet. Although those new Meze are really tugging at my wallet. I agree with you on the T S 5998 , that is still a great power tube. I go back to that every now and then just to hear it and see if I still like it. I have some e l 39 s and a few other types on the way in, so from what CJ says I think I am really going to like the 39 better than anything else. That being the case I'll go ahead and start selling off all the old tubes, to help me fund the new headphones! Good luck with the T1's


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## OctavianH (Jun 13, 2019)

Well cf, it seems that these headphones have a left driver problem, but now when I read on other thread that many tube amp users had problems with 5998 and they are somehow dangerous, I start to think if maybe a part of the problem are my pair of power tubes which I like most. Let's hope it was a driver failure and not a tube related problem.
Anyway, there is nothing cooler than a man with one T1 except a man with 2, so I ordered a new pair to have as a spare part until the other will be repaired. In the end, and after many e-mails and discussions, I found an authorized service to repair them on behalf of Beyerdynamic and now my first pair is sent to them.






These new ones have S/N 44313 compared to 30695 and are manufactured in March 2018. The first impression is that they changed the colors of the box, the rest seems somehow the same, more or less. I think also the color and font of the S/N paint is different.
Now, regarding the sound, everything sounds dull at the moment but I guess things will improve in the future after burn in. When the old pair will come back I will make a 1:1 comparison and decide if I keep both or just one pair and sell the other. Most probably I'll keep both since I like them too much.


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## connieflyer

As far as the five nine nine eight causing problems with tube amps, I have seen no problem with that. When I had the buyer T1 and the left driver failed it was also a well-known problem at that time. And I also did not have the 5998 at that time. I had since I used it with the Elise, and now with the E euphoria and have never had a problem with them. I have also use those with the Sennheiser 650 and 700 and no problem with those either. I really don't see a problem with it TS 5998. Glad you have replacement phones already so you can continue your musical Journey. Good luck


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Well cf, it seems that these headphones have a left driver problem, but now when I read on other thread that many tube amp users had problems with 5998 and they are somehow dangerous, I start to think if maybe a part of the problem are my pair of power tubes which I like most. Let's hope it was a driver failure and not a tube related problem.
> Anyway, there is nothing cooler than a man with one T1 except a man with 2, so I ordered a new pair to have as a spare part until the other will be repaired. In the end, and after many e-mails and discussions, I found an authorized service to repair them on behalf of Beyerdynamic and now my first pair is sent to them.
> 
> 
> ...


Good to hear you have finally found someone to repair your T1's, hopefully they can fix it and you'll have no more problems. Regarding the T1 2nd Gen I sometimes think I might have been a little hasty in getting rid of the pair I bought last year, they were brand new, and I think I only had them a few weeks, with only about 30 hours of burn in, perhaps in the not too distant future I might try them again, anyway fingers crossed they do a good repair of your old T1's.


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## mordy

The repair is not complicated - just two soldering connections and some screws. But I would insist on them matching the new driver to the old one, or better yet, replace them both with a new matched pair.


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## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Good to hear you have finally found someone to repair your T1's, hopefully they can fix it and you'll have no more problems. Regarding the T1 2nd Gen I sometimes think I might have been a little hasty in getting rid of the pair I bought last year, they were brand new, and I think I only had them a few weeks, with only about 30 hours of burn in, perhaps in the not too distant future I might try them again, anyway fingers crossed they do a good repair of your old T1's.



I am really curious about the result. I am not sure if a repaired T1 can sound the same as the factory manufactured one. And I am not sure about the skills and experience of these guys from service. But there is always a plan B: 1:1 comparison and I will keep the one I will like more and sell at a fair price the other. The only problem is that the new T1 sounds darker to me and the service told me that they plan to change both T1 drivers. This makes me think that the 1:1 comparison will be made with 2 totally new headphones, since the old T1 with both drivers changed will not sound at all like the old ones. We will see, I will analyze in detail and inform you about my findings.

Regarding your own pair of T1, I read a lot about DT 1990 Pro lately and many claim it is better in some areas than T1. So I have no idea if these T1 are so good or I am just a fan of them because I found something particular for me in them. After all this hobby is somehow subjective and sometimes it is hard to advise or describe what for you sounds best.



mordy said:


> The repair is not complicated - just two soldering connections and some screws. But I would insist on them matching the new driver to the old one, or better yet, replace them both with a new matched pair.



They informed me that:
1) Beyerdynamic agreed to send the needed spare parts after they receive the headphone and make an assessment of the problem in their service lab
2) for this model they will exchange both drivers if one fails, so I expect to receive a new one with a matched pair.

I am not sure if this replacement or soldering might affect sound quality if they are not made in a factory environment. But what I can and will do is to compare both headphones and to burn in this new pair until the other ones will return from service. I think it might take at least 1-2 weeks since after they receive and test them for diagnose they have to inform Beyerdynamic to send the spare parts. Then they start to fix them and send them back... I expect at that time these new ones will have somewhere at 50 hours.


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## mordy

Hi OctavianH,
I would not worry about the repair, especially since it sounds that they have plenty experience replacing the drivers....It is not rocket science to change the drivers - watch a YouTube video about it and you could do it yourself I am sure.
These headphones are top of the line and they probably just want to make sure that each driver measures identical to the other. 
It is possible that they will sound a little different in the beginning, but after burn in they will most likely sound the way you are used to.


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## aqsw

I could not get rid of my 5998s fast enough. They were nos, but I could not turn my Elise past 1 o'clock without getting distortion. 
Glad they are gone.


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## connieflyer (Jun 14, 2019)

Never had a problem like that. Are you using this as a preamp or headphone amp?


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## myphone (Jun 13, 2019)

Have been lucky with 5998 and 6AS7/6080 tubes in DV 336 (since 2005) and Eufornia (since 2017). All have been running smoothly.

I conditioned all tubes with heater on only for at least 3 days before use, a trick learned from "Atma-sphere OTL amp" 20 years ago. AS amps use many 6AS7 tubes. One set of tubes has lasted  > 10 years in my AS amps.


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## OctavianH

I use Elise for almost 2 years and in the past I used also the Little Dot MKII but I never had any problems with tubes. I always wondered how many hours will last a pair of 5998 in normal usage like for example our amps.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Regarding your own pair of T1, I read a lot about DT 1990 Pro lately and many claim it is better in some areas than T1. So I have no idea if these T1 are so good or I am just a fan of them because I found something particular for me in them. After all this hobby is somehow subjective and sometimes it is hard to advise or describe what for you sounds best.


Well I've never found the DT 1990 wanting in any area, I would not call it my end game but I'm very happy with them, as to whether they are better than the T1, like you say, it's far too subjective, but I do know they pair very well with both Elise and Euforia .


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## OctavianH

I have the DT 1990 PRO on a "mental wishlist" but I try to keep myself out of mentalism  If I own already 2 pairs of T1 and a pair of T5p I doubt I really need another pair. I have not used my HD600 for almost 2 years so I put them for sale. If I buy a new pair I will end on using only the T1s and keep them in the collection only for reputation and this is a bad investment.

Anyway, I started yesterday a double burn-in process. The second pair of T1 and the new interconnects made from Silver Sonic DH Labs Air Matrix cable with some ETI Nexus connectors. I have to admit that from time to time I stop and realize I have no idea what is really happening here, with this combo of cables and new headphones evolving in an, at least, strange way of good and bad experiences. But I know what animal dwells inside T1 and I have to admit that the combo surprises me from time to time. The tubes used are the "usual" Psvane CV181T2 with a pair of Tung Sol 5998 and the burn in is done by the best band in the world.







I have to admit that the bells from the beginning of the Black Sabbath song sounded incredible refined, and this is not a job of the T1 alone. I think I will soon have a new revelation and this might be the Silver Sonic Air Matrix of DH Labs from USA. But I am here on a road of 100 hours at least. When I finish with these I'll check on you guys to see on what EL* tubes you are into and maybe try a pair.


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## Scutey (Jun 14, 2019)

Good luck burning in those hp's/cables, I always enjoy the process of burning in new gear, very much a journey of discovery, oh and as for Black Sabbath being "the best band in the world" I won't disagree! .


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## UntilThen

We have Black Sabbath fans here do we?  Me too !

But I'll play you Temple of the King.


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## OctavianH (Jun 15, 2019)

Scutey said:


> Good luck burning in those hp's/cables, I always enjoy the process of burning in new gear, very much a journey of discovery, oh and as for Black Sabbath being "the best band in the world" I won't disagree! .



The only problem here, in this mess I've myself put into, is that I have no idea if the HP or cables are evolving. I guess both somehow. And I'll reach a new level of chaos when the old pair of HPs will come from the service. Then I'll have a new pair of T1, a repaired pair and a new cable. And all will sound different than I'm used to. Anyway I'll keep these cables for a while since I've sold all my other interconnects. If in 100 hours they will not meet my expectations I will start to search for others. This hobby is a kind of an endless search...

@UntilThen Your cover song reminds me about "Man on the Silver Mountain". And we all know what a man on a silver mountain has to do: interconnect cables and Elise adapters.


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## Scutey

UntilThen said:


> We have Black Sabbath fans here do we?  Me too !
> 
> But I'll play you Temple of the King.



Good to know there is more of us on the dark side of the force! .


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## OctavianH (Jun 19, 2019)

It seems I've destroyed the "minimal" design of F.A, and oh boy how long I've waited for this.






With this occasion I realized I listen mosty around 20-25% of the volume with Qutest Output Level set to 3V. There are 21 markings, so 20 intervals which means 1 interval = 5%. Long live the White Permanent Marker!


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> It seems I've destroyed the "minimal" design of F.A, and oh boy how long I've waited for this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a clever Idea!


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## LoryWiv (Jun 28, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> I was right when claiming that I'll remain a good amount of time on 7236/CV181. This combo is really very good for me and I have a that feeling of a "clinical precision". Fast, detailed, precise. Like a surgeon. LOL. Now listening to the latest Antimatter album called Black Market Enlightenment which is a delight. The percussion area is blessed with these 7236 which are really slamming.


 I'm reviewing this thread in anticipation of my Elise being delivered next week. Quick question about the combo you reference above which is is its heat generation about the same as the stock tubes or different?  I've read some info that suggests tube rolling can make a big difference in heat as well as sound sig..
We often have little grandchildren at the house I'm wondering if great sound and perhaps less than 300ﾟ C is a holy grail we can actually achieve. Also thinking of getting some type of square metal mesh to set around the the 4 tubes that won't obstruct heat dissipation but protect little fingers. Does anyone have experience trying that or similar approach?

Thanks


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## OctavianH (Jun 29, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> I'm reviewing this thread in anticipation of my Elise being delivered next week. Quick question about the combo you reference above which is is its heat generation about the same as the stock tubes or different?  I've read some info that suggests tube rolling can make a big difference in heat as well as sound sig..
> We often have little grandchildren at the house I'm wondering if great sound and perhaps less than 300ﾟ C is a holy grail we can actually achieve. Also thinking of getting some type of square metal mesh to set around the the 4 tubes that won't obstruct heat dissipation but protect little fingers. Does anyone have experience trying that or similar approach?
> 
> Thanks



Hi,

First of all welcome, I am glad that the Elise community is increasing. I will try to answer to your questions even if I am a newbie here compared to others. I use Elise since February 2018 and I have the MK2 model no. 145.
The heat generation is based on tube parameters and the amount of current the amp is capable to use. As far as I know the rule is that Elise can be used with tubes which not exceed 6.5A in total (all 4 tubes).
The stock tubes are 2x6SN7 as drivers (the ones in front) and 2x6AS7 as powers (or output tubes, the ones near the power transformer). The 6SN7 type are rated at 0.6A and the 6AS7 types at 2.5A which leads us to a 2x0.6+2x2.5=6.2A.
Now regarding the temperature of the tube when the amp is in usage, I guess a tube reaches somewhere at 150C but definitely you should be careful with children or pets if you plan to let them in the vicinity of the amp.
Since I do not have these problems in my house I never tried to add any protection.

When I was tube rolling, because lately I stick to the same tube combo for almost 1 year, I made a small chart which might help you:






Be aware that for some tube types you need adapters in order to be able to use them in Elise and some of the types can be plugged directly.
For example, from what I used:
1) drivers which work directly plugged: 6SN7, 6H8C
2) powers which work directly plugged: 6AS7, 6H13C, 6080, 5998, 7236
For the rest of them you will need to buy adapters from Ebay, where you can find a manufacturer which sells them at a decent price.
The name of the seller is *xulingmrs *and an example of such an adapter is:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
Of course, you will need pairs of adapters.

Beside the tube types from my chart, the community is using also EL38, EL39 and EL11 (which work with the same adapter as EL12N), EL12 or EL12Spez. But here I'll let others provide more details since I do not quite use these EL tubes because all are too "sweet" for me. All of these require adapter.

EL tubes can be used in both "driver" and "power" position and many use EL11 as drivers and EL38 or EL39 as powers or you can also try EL3N / EL32 combinations. Some of us used double adapters and had 6 tubes in the same time, as long as the max current was not exceeded. An example is the 6xEL3N combo here on my amp:






And of course, if you want to go further, but I would advise to do this only after you get some experience, you can use more powerful tubes than these ones already presented with external heating and power supply. But please do not do this unless you are sure about what you are doing because it might damage the amp.

Elise is a very scalable amp and it reaches a very good performance when the rest of the line is on par. I have improved its performance a lot with upgraded cables, DAC, power filtering and so on.

I hope I have provided you correct and good information as an introduction to the amp. Feel free to ask more and I am sure that I or someone else will provide you the answer.


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## LoryWiv (Jun 29, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> Hi,
> 
> First of all welcome, I am glad that the Elise community is increasing. I will try to answer to your questions even if I am a newbie here compared to others. I use Elise since February 2018 and I have the MK2 model no. 145.
> The heat generation is based on tube parameters and the amount of current the amp is capable to use. As far as I know the rule is that Elise can be used with tubes which not exceed 6.5A in total (all 4 tubes).
> ...


Thank you OctavianH for a clear and very helpful reply!  Is it fair to say that none of the above variations in tube choice have a great impact on heat generation?. Also, if I were to roll just driver or power I've been told the driver is more impactful on sound signature but would appreciate your thoughts on this as well..

 I hope my questions will be more informed and experience based in the weeks and months after I received my app next week, and I'm grateful for this community as a place to learn from the vast experiences of others.

Thank you again for a terrific reply. You packed a lot of key information in a concise post and it is appreciated.


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Thank you OctavianH for a clear and very helpful reply!  Is it fair to say that none of the above variations in tube choice have a great impact on heat generation?. Also, if I were to to bro just driver or power I've been told the driver is more impact full on sound signature but would appreciate your thoughts on this as well..
> 
> I hope my questions will be more informed and experience based in the weeks and months after I received my app next week, and I'm grateful for this community as a place to learn from the vast experiences of others.
> 
> Thank you again for a terrific reply. You packed a lot of key information in a concise post and it is appreciated.



I would say the amount of heat is direct proportional with the current passing through those tubes. Or at least this is how I understand it. So if you use 6SN7 + 6AS7 you will generate more heat than using for example 4 x EL32 (both drivers and powers). But both configurations should be fine since the amp supports up to 6.5A and therefore should be fine also with that amount of heat coming through them. 

Regarding the impact on sound signature, I usually think that the output tubes have a bigger impact on lower frequencies and the drivers are somehow taking care of the rest. But I do not really know if this is an assumption or it really has an electrical explanation.
Please also be aware that I never tried Elise with stock tubes since I already owned some when buying it. So I have no idea how the stock tubes sound... But I have here a pair of 6H8C which they usually ship as powers, as far as I know, and they are quite OK... even if they are not exactly my cup of tea.

But please take my post with a grain of salt since this are pure "speculations" based on how I perceive things.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I would say the amount of heat is direct proportional with the current passing through those tubes. Or at least this is how I understand it. So if you use 6SN7 + 6AS7 you will generate more heat than using for example 4 x EL32 (both drivers and powers). But both configurations should be fine since the amp supports up to 6.5A and therefore should be fine also with that amount of heat coming through them.
> 
> Regarding the impact on sound signature, I usually think that the output tubes have a bigger impact on lower frequencies and the drivers are somehow taking care of the rest. But I do not really know if this is an assumption or it really has an electrical explanation.
> Please also be aware that I never tried Elise with stock tubes since I already owned some when buying it. So I have no idea how the stock tubes sound... But I have here a pair of 6H8C which they usually ship as powers, as far as I know, and they are quite OK... even if they are not exactly my cup of tea.
> ...


 Understood and appreciated.


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> I'm reviewing this thread in anticipation of my Elise being delivered next week. Quick question about the combo you reference above which is is its heat generation about the same as the stock tubes or different?  I've read some info that suggests tube rolling can make a big difference in heat as well as sound sig..
> We often have little grandchildren at the house I'm wondering if great sound and perhaps less than 300ﾟ C is a holy grail we can actually achieve. Also thinking of getting some type of square metal mesh to set around the the 4 tubes that won't obstruct heat dissipation but protect little fingers. Does anyone have experience trying that or similar approach?
> 
> Thanks


Hi LW,
The tubes can get quite hot, especially the 2.5A power tubes, and you can easily burn your fingers on them.
Perhaps you can place the amp on a shelf higher up so that little fingers cannot reach the tubes. (As a matter of fact, somebody just bought a used Elise and sold it because of worries that little children would get too close.)
A lot of tube amps have wire cages, although I haven't seen any Elise/Euforia with them, but it should not be too difficult to make something to fit over the tubes.
Heat buildup is a problem with electronics, and the Elise/Euforia require adequate ventilation. By adding socket savers and a little fan pulling hot air away from the amp you can significantly reduce the temperature of the chassis, but some tubes still get very hot.


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## LoryWiv (Jun 30, 2019)

Delete.


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## LoryWiv

Thanks, @mordy . Just starting to learn about sockets savers, do they degrade the sound at all and even if not, is their primary effect to minimize transmission of the tubes' heat generation to the chassis?. In other words, they don't reduce the heat of the tubes themselves, correct? Thanks for offering your knowledge to this OTL newbie.


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## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks, @mordy . Just starting to learn about sockets savers, do they degrade the sound at all and even if not, is their primary effect to minimize transmission of the tubes' heat generation to the chassis?. In other words, they don't reduce the heat of the tubes themselves, correct? Thanks for offering your knowledge to this OTL newbie.


Good questions! I have had very inexpensive socket savers (around $3) that did degrade the sound so I would say to go with better ones - around $10-15.
The original idea of socket savers, as the name indicates, was to prevent the tube sockets from wearing out from frequent changes; the heat reduction is a secondary function.
The tubes heat up the same with the socket savers, but the heat does not transfer to the chassis to the same extent. I use an old 4" PC fan hooked up to a 12V power supply to draw away hot air from the air in my equipment rack - lowers the temperature a good 10 degrees.


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## DecentLevi

Hi @LoryWiv, welcome again. In addition to the current one and the "new" Elise thread with almost 900 pages:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-new-thread.782754/

There's also the Feliks Audio Tube Amps thread created by Until Then:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-tube-amps.854783/

The most active F.A. thread is the Euforia thread as you've already seen, and we can help you there too with anything. The dearly departed starter of this current thread Pctazhp leaves an empty space behind in his passing.


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## Scutey

A belated welcome @LoryWiv from me, can't add much to what has already been very well put by @OctavianH and others, I found the best thing is to get used to the stock tubes first and then start researching other tubes, one think I would mention, if you are concerned about heat build up in the chassis then the coolest running tubes are the EL type, won't say any more than that for now as it can be a bit of an overload at first, anyway, hope you enjoy your Elise, it's a cracking amp .


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## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> A belated welcome @LoryWiv from me, can't add much to what has already been very well put by @OctavianH and others, I found the best thing is to get used to the stock tubes first and then start researching other tubes, one think I would mention, if you are concerned about heat build up in the chassis then the coolest running tubes are the EL type, won't say any more than that for now as it can be a bit of an overload at first, anyway, hope you enjoy your Elise, it's a cracking amp .


Appreciate the welcome @Scutey!


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## OctavianH

I would like to add only that _*PATIENCE*_ is the key to really understand and appreciate this amp at its true value, and this is valid for all F.A models. Unfortunately, I am the wrong example, because I wanted to learn and experience too much as fast as possible and never waited enough for each combo to burn in and start to shine. But I will soon draw a line, make a step back and re-evaluate my findings. In the meantime I will put here a useful link for beginners about some of the "famous" tubes which can be used also in Elise:
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.msg30393#msg30393
Here are some nice descriptions about the main output types which work also on Elise. Of course, the EL family is missing, but anyway it is a good read.


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## LoryWiv (Jun 30, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> Here are some nice descriptions about the main output types which work also on Elise. Of course, the EL family is missing, but anyway it is a good read.


Fantastic, short of quitting my job it may take me a while to catch up on all of this reading homework but I'm really grateful for all of the resources. I also hear the message loud and clear to let my stock tubes burn in and get to know the amp before rolling too quickly to the next shiny, glowing object.


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## LoryWiv (Jul 4, 2019)

Just put the Feliks Elise into my chain driving Auteur, retired the iFi iCan Pro. For any Auteur owners who think it's bass shy, pairing with this OTL tube amp quickly dispels that myth. Definitely more bass presence, well-controlled and of excellent quality with no bloom or bleed, perfect quantity for my preference. Other 1st impressions are that Elise-Auteur combination is highly musical and engaging, with forward and euphonic mids. It is also quite forgiving of lower quality recordings. Potential trade-offs versus iCan Pro driving Auteur so far include less extended treble and smaller stage width / height (depth seems excellent), and perhaps a touch less micro-detail retrieval. Of course the Elise only has < 5 hours on it, stock tubes, and I'm looking forward to burn in, assessing for changes, and eventually, perhaps some tube rolling.


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## OctavianH

@LoryWiv It it is not a confidential information what serial number has your Elise?


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## Wheel Hoss

LoryWiv said:


> Just put the Feliks Elise into my chain driving Auteur, retired the iFi iCan Pro. For any Auteur owners who think it's bass shy, pairing with this OTL tube amp quickly dispels that myth. Definitely more bass presence, well-controlled and of excellent quality with no bloom or bleed, perfect quantity for my preference. Other 1st impressions are that Elise-Auteur combination is highly musical and engaging, with forward and euphonic mids. It is also quite forgiving of lower quality recordings. Potential trade-offs versus iCan Pro driving Auteur so far include less extended treble and smaller stage width / height (depth seems excellent), and perhaps a touch less micro-detail retrieval. Of course the Elise only has < 5 hours on it, stock tubes, and I'm looking forward to burn in, assessing for changes, and eventually, perhaps some tube rolling.



Didn’t you post the _exact same thing _in the Auteur thread?

I understand wanting to get different feedback from different people, but double-posting these brag shots seems like fishing for likes, which to me isn’t in the spirit of HF. 

But what do I know?


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## LoryWiv (Jul 5, 2019)

Wheel Hoss said:


> I understand wanting to get different feedback from different people, but double-posting these brag shots seems like fishing for likes, which to me isn’t in the spirit of HF. But what do I know?


I am sure you know a lot, but in this case you are wrong. My reason is that I noted that while Elise is the "proper" thread the activity in Euforia thread is far greater and some of the veterans there indicated Elise posts are fine. The Auteur post was to address the Auteur-Elise synergy in case other Auteur owners were interested, not trolling for likes.

However, you are right that double posting, even if well-intended, is to be avoided, Others have informed me in more constructive way than you did. Going forward I will avoid double-posting.

Best.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> @LoryWiv It it is not a confidential information what serial number has your Elise?



Happy to share this, will retrieve the SN after current listening session. Where is it on the chassis, and is it on box as well?


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## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Happy to share this, will retrieve the SN after current listening session. Where is it on the chassis, and is it on box as well?



It's right under the amp, just a number. Mine was 145 and I was curious how many were built since 02.2018. Thanks.


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## LoryWiv

Just a quick early impression update: As I continue to burn in Elise, I at times feel that it's missing some technicalities (instrument separation / stage, detail, treble extension) but then that thought passes as I once again get immersed in the music. In short, I find with Elise I am less interested in listening to the equipment and back to my true passion of listening to the music. I am noticing lyrics in jazz recordings, whereas with my technically adept iCan Pro I was often straining to assess for standup bass impact or cymbal sparkle that I lost focus on the "big picture". Classical music flows organically, piano euphonic and not artificially bright, string quartets brimming with emotion. So while I do wish for a bit more stage and treble extension in particular, the overall experience is incredibly "human" and the positives GREATLY outweigh the negatives thus far.


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> Just a quick early impression update: As I continue to burn in Elise, I at times feel that it's missing some technicalities (instrument separation / stage, detail, treble extension) but then that thought passes as I once again get immersed in the music. In short, I find with Elise I am less interested in listening to the equipment and back to my true passion of listening to the music. I am noticing lyrics in jazz recordings, whereas with my technically adept iCan Pro I was often straining to assess for standup bass impact or cymbal sparkle that I lost focus on the "big picture". Classical music flows organically, piano euphonic and not artificially bright, string quartets brimming with emotion. So while I do wish for a bit more stage and treble extension in particular, the overall experience is incredibly "human" and the positives GREATLY outweigh the negatives thus far.


Good to hear you're enjoying the Elise, and of course, with burn in things will only get better!, factor in better tubes and your Experience will improve way beyond, because the Elise does scale very well.

ps how do the Auteur sound with the Elise, I would imagine they work really well with tube amps.


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## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> Good to hear you're enjoying the Elise, and of course, with burn in things will only get better!, factor in better tubes and your Experience will improve way beyond, because the Elise does scale very well.
> 
> ps how do the Auteur sound with the Elise, I would imagine they work really well with tube amps.


 Elise-Auteur is a very nice combination, as Auteur tends toward neutral and Elise ads a touch more warmth.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Mine was 145 and I was curious how many were built since 02.2018. Thanks.



My unit is # 0198


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## OctavianH

This means 53 amps in 18 months. Thanks.


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## OctavianH

The end of an era is coming...


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## Scutey

Sadly yes, and there will be a few more over the coming years .
I still have my original cassette copy of this classic I bought way back in 86!.


----------



## LoryWiv

Been reading a bit about aftermarket isolation feet to reduce vibration under audio components, improve performance. Isoacoustics Orea has been recommended, but a bit pricey. Anyone using this with Elise to positive effect, or is it likely audio snake oil?


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 8, 2019)

Honestly I never cared about vibration when using Elise but a lot of people use racks and anti-vibration stuff for their gear. What I've seen and used some years in the past, were some rings for the tubes:






Honestly it is hard for me to say if these make any difference. Some guys also claim a DAC sounds better if vibration is reduced to minimum, but for me this sounds like "snake oil" as you mentioned. Before starting to invest in such a thing you can do something, if needed, which proved to me to improve a lot the sound quality like better interconnects or AC filtering and better power cables.
Regarding interconnects everything is subjective, but regarding AC filtering some users here including myself use Furman power conditioners. I use an AC-210A E (for 220V) which has 2 filtered plugs but there are also more expensive models with a lot more.


----------



## LoryWiv

Thank you, @OctavianH . I have some mid-tier upgraded power cables for my DAC and USB interface, and decent Pangea / Cardas RCA interconnects to the Elise. It didn't occur to me yet to replace the Elise's power cable with an aftermarket one...would you recommend this as likely to be more impactful than isolation feet if one wanted to invest $150 or some similarly modest amount to get more out of the amp.

Regarding power conditioners, what would you say are the principle changes / improvements you notice with the Furman?

Seems the tweaks never end, and I'm not even close to considering tube rolling yet. The good news is I am already enjoying Elise very much as is, about 25 hours in. It's musicality is first rate, really well-balanced across the frequencies but hoping a a bit more "air", stage and treble extension develop. Not a detail monster either but I think that's part of what makes it so engaging....I find I am listening longer to the music, not straining to hear the proficiency of the equipment. In short, really enjoying the journey so far!


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Thank you, @OctavianH Regarding power conditioners, what would you say are the principle changes / improvements you notice with the Furman?



I guess  the best description is here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fel...ost-for-summary.813488/page-728#post-14742673


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> Been reading a bit about aftermarket isolation feet to reduce vibration under audio components, improve performance. Isoacoustics Orea has been recommended, but a bit pricey. Anyone using this with Elise to positive effect, or is it likely audio snake oil?


I'm with @OctavianH on this, I'm not convinced of any advantages, the only thing is it will give your amp an extra bit of height to allow a little bit more ventilation, but then do you really need to buy in something when you could possibly make something similar from anything you have at home which would do the same thing.


----------



## mordy

Hi LW,


Scutey said:


> I'm with @OctavianH on this, I'm not convinced of any advantages, the only thing is it will give your amp an extra bit of height to allow a little bit more ventilation, but then do you really need to buy in something when you could possibly make something similar from anything you have at home which would do the same thing.


Hi LW, 
A long time ago I read about a very low cost isolation tweak from Steve Guttenberg. If your equipment sits on a shelf, take four glass marbles and put at each corner (green glass are best sounding - JUST KIDDING!) under the shelf. Somehow this idea appeals to me - the marbles are supposed to cancel out micro vibrations.
A little tricky to keep them in place, but you could add some material to keep them in place.
As far as power cords are concerned, I did notice an improvement with a 14 gauge hospital quality power cord. The bass became tighter. The cost is a 1/10th of the $150 allocation.
https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Leader...WG+power+cord&qid=1562606503&s=gateway&sr=8-9


----------



## LoryWiv

Thanks @Scutey and @mordy .I appreciate your common sense approach and tips very much. Still wondering, though, if I use 2 green marbles stacked vertically can I get tighter bass and whiter teeth?


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @Scutey and @mordy .I appreciate your common sense approach and tips very much. Still wondering, though, if I use 2 green marbles stacked vertically can I get tighter bass and whiter teeth?


Hi LW,
I have to confess that only my power amp sits on a shelf with the four marbles. I could put marbles under the shelf with my tube amp, but it would raise it too close to the overhead PC fan mounted to the shelf above it.
I actually tried, but not enough clearance....
These are the marbles I appropriated from unsuspecting grandchildren:




Turns out that that there are two sizes (at least). Hand selected four big ones:



They don't really look uniform in size - wonder how that will affect the sound?
Anyhow, as stated, unless I pull out the socket savers, there isn't enough room.
Re stacking the the marbles, I remember seeing pictures of somebody who did away with the feet under the equipment and all associated vibration problems - all the pieces of equipment were hanging in rope cradles hanging from the ceiling!


----------



## Madhyamika

If I hang my Elise from the ceiling with ropes...

...we will all know I must have finally lost my marbles


----------



## Scutey

Madhyamika said:


> If I hang my Elise from the ceiling with ropes...
> 
> ...we will all know I must have finally lost my marbles


----------



## mordy

Do you remember when you had to paint the edges of CDs green?
And do you remember the great sonic improvements when you put a couple of coins on the front corner edge of the speakers?
Here is a modern version of Snake Oil:


----------



## LoryWiv

Quick update as I continue along my Elise journey, probably now about 50 hours of burn in. No major tonality changes, which is a good thing as I am really enjoying the overall signature. Treble extension, air and stage width are increasing to a degree, and the touch of grain I'd noted in female vocals has diminished. A caveat is I also upgrade my 4-pin XLR to 1/4 inch headphone cable adapter to one made by the same guy who made my cable (Trevor at Norne Audio is outstanding to work with) and I think this contributed as well. 

Overall, I find myself not routinely assessing technicalities as much as just enjoying the music, and that speaks volumes about the Elise. It's still worthwhile to reflect on evolution of the amp's characteristics over time, but staying connected to the music is the primary pleasure with Elise.


----------



## OctavianH

Yesterday I decided to try again my old HD 600 on Elise, since my headphone line was heavily upgraded in the last years. This headphone is special and it is a very good example of a headphone which evolves a lot with a proper amp and a proper cable. And it is the last pair I still keep in my collection except my T1s since I've sold all my other headphones.

I use the ADL (Furutech) iHP-35S cable but I would like to try a silver one for this pair. Can someone recommend me a good cable for HD600?






The HD600 is not on the same level as T1, but still, it is very enjoyable.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I use the ADL (Furutech) iHP-35S cable but I would like to try a silver one for this pair. Can someone recommend me a good cable for HD600?


I have had several Norne Audio cables, they offer 3 options in pure silver. I currently have Norne Silvergarde S3. It is spectacular, sonically and aesthetically, no shrill / strident highs I've experienced with other silver cables. Pricey, but IMHO worth it. Trevor at Norne is a pleasure to deal with as well.


----------



## hypnos1 (Jul 15, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> Been reading a bit about aftermarket isolation feet to reduce vibration under audio components, improve performance. Isoacoustics Orea has been recommended, but a bit pricey. Anyone using this with Elise to positive effect, or is it likely audio snake oil?



Hi LW.

As @OctavianH said, any substantial amount of money is far better spent on upgrading other elements in the system. A popular inexpensive method however is hard wood 'cone' (conical) feet. I personally like them for the fact that the only point of contact with the shelf is a tiny point of wood...so hardly any surface area to transmit vibrations. And, of course, no chance of a 'ringing' effect, to which _glass_ is sometimes susceptible, even if only very slightly. They can also, if large enough cones, give useful extra height for better ventilation under the amp.

Glad to hear you're liking your Elise even more with further burn-in, and that the basic character is remaining to your taste. Happy continued listening!...CJ


----------



## OctavianH

Enjoying late night moments with Elise, and with my all time favourite track from Iron Maiden, Infinite dreams.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Enjoying late night moments with Elise, and with my all time favourite track from Iron Maiden, Infinite dreams.


A great album, in fact all of their 80's output is brilliant, enjoy .


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## OctavianH (Jul 19, 2019)

Scutey said:


> A great album, in fact all of their 80's output is brilliant, enjoy .



Cannot agree more, but for me Seventh Son of a Seventh Son is the masterpiece. I always loved this album. I have a very good friend and Judas Priest fan who prefers the Somewhere in TIme album but we always disagreed on this topic. However all the 80s era of Iron Maiden was huge, including the Paul Di'Anno first two albums. I will remain always a fan of the '88 album.

PS. And remembering my friend who is also the biggest Motörhead fan I have to put this here:



Long live Lemmy, you might not be among us, but you will ever be in our heart!


----------



## Scutey

For me the 80's was a great decade for metal, my first ever gig was Iron Maiden in 1984, went to the gig with my friends after school, seeing my heroes in front of me will stay with me forever.

As or Lemmy I was shocked when he passed, such a larger than life character, again I was lucky enough to seem them here in Plymouth in 2005, they were brilliant, of course!, but you are absolutely right Lemmy maybe gone but he will never be forgotten.


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## OctavianH (Jul 19, 2019)

I've seen Lemmy in Wacken many years ago playing on the main stage with Motörhead but the show had to stop for some unknown reason. I guess Lemmy was not in the best shape. I was not lucky enough to catch them another time but he will remain always in my heart. This year I am lucky to see Saxon at their 40s anniversary with the new "eagles and castles" production. So the Eagle will land in Germany, in north, during W:O:A., and I will be in the 1st line as always.


----------



## LoryWiv

About 50-60 hours on my Elise now, starting to really enjoy the warmth it adds to my fairly neutral ZMF Auteur. Early impressions of constricted sound stage and limited treble extension are improving. Still hoping the bass tightens up more than it already has, and there is upper midrange grain on certain tracks, also diminished but surfaces here and there. All in all good synergy with the Auteur and a very engaging listen.


----------



## Scutey

Good to hear your Elise is improving with the stock, but If you do at some point tube rolling, then, depending on the tubes, the Elise will really open up and show you what it can really do, btw those Auteurs are gorgeous looking cans.


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## LoryWiv

Thanks. One of the reasons I posted the pic was I spent a bit of time shining up the Auteur (Howards Feed-N-Wax). ZMF cups are truly beautifully made. Curious, @Scutey what tube set have you found best especially re.: stage, treble extension and detail to complement the Elise's innate warmth and euphonic nature?


----------



## Scutey

Hi @LoryWiv my favourite set up is EL39 with EL11 as drivers, this is a fantastic combo, lively, detailed, dynamic, holographic and has excellent extension at both ends, sadly the 39's seem to be almost non existent, and there's no one mass making the adapters, however the EL38 is a very good alternative as powers to the 39. Those Psvanes are very decent tubes, so you could pair them with Tung Sol 5998, which is very good traditional Elise tube it's still fairly warm but livelier more detailed and better extended and should pair well, and with other 6sn7 tubes as well, but personally the EL39/38 and EL11 is the best combos I've heard in the Elise.


----------



## LoryWiv

Thank you, @Scutey . I beleive that EL38 still requires adapter, correct, but are these easier to source?

More generally, are most 6.3 V tubes compatable as drivers / powers if an adapter is available or is there more to it? Also, I notice some powers indicate higher gain...does this tend to increase noise floor as well?

Thanks for helping me learn and most importantly, not blow up my Elise when I decide to tube roll!


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## Scutey

Yes the EL38 requires an adapter, here's the link.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...957233?hash=item2f2697fab1:g:jMQAAOSwi3xb9jks

The Elise was designed around the 6.3V tubes, 6AS7/6080 for powers and 6SN7 for drivers, I think I'm right in saying that the Elise cannot exceed 6.5A, that's the total for all 4 tubes, higher gain tubes will sound a little louder, for instance the EL32 has a A of 0.2A, the 6SN7 by comparison is 0.6A so will sound louder. Hope this helps!


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## LoryWiv (Jul 23, 2019)

Scutey said:


> Yes the EL38 requires an adapter, here's the link.
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...957233?hash=item2f2697fab1:g:jMQAAOSwi3xb9jks
> 
> The Elise was designed around the 6.3V tubes, 6AS7/6080 for powers and 6SN7 for drivers, I think I'm right in saying that the Elise cannot exceed 6.5A, that's the total for all 4 tubes, higher gain tubes will sound a little louder, for instance the EL32 has a A of 0.2A, the 6SN7 by comparison is 0.6A so will sound louder. Hope this helps!



Yes, very helpful and appreciated! I am interested defintely in the EL38's as powers, possibly PSVANE CV-181 premiums as drivers, but first am committed to burning my Elise's current tubes in further before rolling....patience is a virtue, I think.

BTW do the adapters detract from the Elise's good looks espeicalyly w/that external wire and cap. Do you have a photo to share of EL38's or EL39's installed?

Thanks again, @Scutey !


----------



## aqsw

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, very helpful and appreciated! I am interested defintelyin the EL38's as powers, possibly PSVANE CV-181 premiums as drivers, but first am committed to burning my Elise's current tubes in further before rolling....patience is a virtue, I think.
> 
> BTW do the adapters detract from the Elise's good looks espeicalyly w/that external wire and cap. Do you have a photo to share of EL38's or EL39's installed?
> 
> Thanks again, @Scutey !


Here's one with 38 powers  and el3n drivers. I think it looks pretty good


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## mordy

aqsw said:


> Here's one with 38 powers  and el3n drivers. I think it looks pretty good


Hi LW,
If you don't like the look of the adapters, they can be painted or shrinkwrapped to change the color.


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## LoryWiv

aqsw said:


> Here's one with 38 powers  and el3n drivers. I think it looks pretty good


Yes, it does look good. How would you describe the sound changes versus stock tube sets?


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## LoryWiv (Aug 3, 2019)

Edit


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## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, very helpful and appreciated! I am interested defintely in the EL38's as powers, possibly PSVANE CV-181 premiums as drivers, but first am committed to burning my Elise's current tubes in further before rolling....patience is a virtue, I think.
> 
> BTW do the adapters detract from the Elise's good looks espeicalyly w/that external wire and cap. Do you have a photo to share of EL38's or EL39's installed?
> 
> Thanks again, @Scutey !


Bot @OctavianH and myself use the Psvane CV 181 T II and it is a very good tube, detailed, airy with good  top extension, pairs well with the Tung Sol 5998.


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## OctavianH (Jul 24, 2019)

I confirm that my favourite pair is the Psvane CV181T2 / Tung Sol 5998. However, these are not cheap tubes, I paid for the Psvane pair around 200 EUR and for the 5998 pair around 240 EUR. Maybe in US the prices are lower but in Europe the situation is different. What you can find at a smaller price, and they are also very good tubes, are Tung Sol 7236 as powers and Siemens C3g as drivers, but for the last ones you need adapters from ebay.

And some pictures, because, as always, a pictures makes as 1000 words and I really like the look of these tubes.

These are Psvane CV181T2 with Tung Sol 5998:






These are Siemens C3g with Tung Sol 7236.






Other options would be Foton 6H8C produced in 50s or EL12N, but I guess now the best pairing of EL tubes is the EL11 / EL39 and other EL tubes are not regarded as good as before.
About these types the guys from the Euforia thread know more than me. I remained stucked in my combo for almost 2 years and could not find anything better to me. Of course, this is a matter of taste, of the rest of the line used (DAC, cables, source), a matter of differences between Elise / Euforia sound signature and last but not least the genre and music types you listen. Maybe I will try a combo of EL11/EL39 in the future, but there is no hurry, as you said patience is a virtue in this hobby.

I listen 90% of my time to rock music, and one of my biggest problems in choosing tube pairings are the Hi-Hat and cymbals, heavily used in fast passages of this genre which sound unclear or grainy on several pairings. Even several types of interconnect cables are warming too much or making these sound dull, so yes, these are killing me and make me always refuse several tube pairings.


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## LoryWiv (Jul 25, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> I confirm that my favourite pair is the Psvane CV181T2 / Tung Sol 5998. However, these are not cheap tubes, I paid for the Psvane pair around 200 EUR and for the 5998 pair around 240 EUR. Maybe in US the prices are lower but in Europe the situation is different. What you can find at a smaller price, and they are also very good tubes, are Tung Sol 7236 as powers and Siemens C3g as drivers, but for the last ones you need adapters from ebay.
> 
> And some pictures, because, as always, a pictures makes as 1000 words and I really like the look of these tubes.
> 
> ...


@OctavianH , your post has whett my appetite for the Psvane CV181T2 / Tung Sol 5998 combination, although the prices are a bit daunting. I am a (former) drummer and agree, getting cymbals and snares to sound authentic is key. Currently, however, I listen to mostly classical music, piano especially, and Elise stock tubes sound generally good but sometimes a bit murky / veiled with grain in upper mids and looseness to bass.Treble and stage have improved with burn-in.

Would the PSVane / Tung-Sol combo. you favor potentially improve bass tightness, reduce grain and veil versus stock?

I read elsewhere that the 5998's have higher transconductance than the 7236 or 6080's and this lowers output impendance --> may match better with higher impedance cans (my Auteur is 300 Ohm). I may be getting too deep in the weeds for a relative tube newbie, but it's fun to learn.

Anyway, thanks for the great photos and input!


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## OctavianH

It is hard for me to make a comparison since I never tried the stock driver tubes. I own a pair of 6H13C and all I can say is that for me, the bass provided by 5998 is tighter and with more clarity compared to the stock power tubes and it has that feeling of "punch in the face" I was not able to find in any other power tube until now. But I have not tried the EL38/EL39 ...


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## LoryWiv

Question: What is the height of the feet on Elises' base?


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## aqsw

1/2 inch


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## LoryWiv (Aug 2, 2019)

I appreciate that...considering aftermarket feet and the height of stock feet will help me select wisely.


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## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> Hi LW,
> If you don't like the look of the adapters, they can be painted or shrinkwrapped to change the color.


Boy, this is a creative group, answers abound. I appreciate that  @mordy !


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## LoryWiv

aqsw said:


> Here's one with 38 powers  and el3n drivers. I think it looks pretty good


Thanks @aqsw , yes you're right they look pretty darn sharp. Newbie-esque question: I see "EL38 instead 6SN7" adapters on ebay which I assume would be for the EL38 in driver position. Would I need a different "EL38 instead 6AS7G " to use the EL38 as powers?


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## aqsw

Same adapters for driver or power sockets


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## LoryWiv

aqsw said:


> Same adapters for driver or power sockets


So sockets are the same, I have much to learn, assumed they'd be different for driver versus power tube use...but really helpful, got it, and thank you, @aqsw !


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## LoryWiv

I'm really enjoying Elise with stock tubes, no pressing urge to tube roll but am trying to learn the basics so when I do I have some knowledge on hand. I believe I need to

1. Use 6.3V tubes
2. Keep total heater current below 6.5 A
3. Stick with octals (8-pin) if I don't want to use an adapter
4. Use compatable power (output) tube, options include 6080, 7236, 5998 or 121A, but I'm wondering if their differing amplification factor ratings influence output. For example, 6AS7G and 6080 are 2u versus 7236 is 4u, 5998 is 4.8u and 421A at 5.9u. Would this mean the latter 3 are progressively "louder" at similar Elise volume setting? Do they run hotter? Does the increased gain add risk of a less quiet noise floor or other sonic disadvantages?

Thanks for helping a "tubey-newbie" learn, and happy listening!


----------



## Preachy1

aqsw said:


> Same adapters for driver or power sockets


You stole my avatar!!!!


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## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> I'm really enjoying Elise with stock tubes, no pressing urge to tube roll but am trying to learn the basics so when I do I have some knowledge on hand. I believe I need to
> 
> 1. Use 6.3V tubes
> 2. Keep total heater current below 6.5 A
> ...


Hi LW,
 Your assumptions are correct for everything you write. A higher multiplication factor will make the amp sound louder. It is possible that a higher multiplication may introduce more noise, but this has to be determined on an individual basis - I would not worry about it.
Regarding how hot the tube runs it depends on many factors and I am not sure if there is a relationship to the multiplication factor, but probably depends more on the construction and materials. Some tubes definitively run hotter than others. By looking at the spec sheets you can find the operating temperature range and which degree not to exceed.
You can buy an inexpensive IR thermometer (less than $15)  and spot measure the temperature in the tubes - there are large variances depending where you measure.
If you keep the amp well ventilated and not enclosed in a cabinet you should not have any problems.
The main thing is not to burn your fingers on the power tubes.....They can run upwards of 250F.


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## LoryWiv

Thank you, @mordy, this is a fun journey and learning from those farther along the road is really helpful. Pretty sure that road has no end, though...


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## OctavianH

I might be able to try soon a pair of Melz 6H12S metal base as drivers. These are rated at 0.9A (with a pair of 6AS7G we reach 6.8A) but some users tried them with success without any external heating or power. 
I know for sure that Elise has a 6.5A limit but I am not sure if Euforia goes up to 7A. Anyway, has anyone tried these on Elise?


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> I might be able to try soon a pair of Melz 6H12S metal base as drivers. These are rated at 0.9A (with a pair of 6AS7G we reach 6.8A) but some users tried them with success without any external heating or power.
> I know for sure that Elise has a 6.5A limit but I am not sure if Euforia goes up to 7A. Anyway, has anyone tried these on Elise?


You can extend the current draw a little, especially if you use a fan for cooling.
The Euforia is rated 7A.


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## OctavianH (Aug 16, 2019)

A Friday evening needs to end with...



Ps. Thulemann remasters are quite good.


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## OctavianH (Aug 21, 2019)

Courtesy of a very nice gentleman from the community, who decided to pursue other oportunities and sold a part of his tube collection, I was able to add some very good tubes to mine. Among them there is a pair of CV2523 straight brown base, some chrome top 5998 and also some tubes I always wanted but never had the chance to have, Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass. These CV2523 tubes have no logo, but on one of them I see a small shape reminding of a former GEC logo, so I suspect these were branded as GEC. Anyway they look almost identical to the "holy grail" and I think they are identical, construction wise, to the famous round brown base.

So now gents, time to roll some GEC (or what they are) 6AS7G + PsVane CV181T2 on Elise:







These beauties are very detailed, very balanced in all areas. I have a feeling that these provide more detail than the 5998 but the bass is not so punchy. I was expecting them to be warmer but I am very pleased that they are not.






Does anyone know if these were manufactured by GEC? I know also Marconi/Osram made some of these in the past.

And starting today I own 4 pieces of chrome top Tung Sol 5998. The green painted ones are from '57 and the white painted ones from '55. Other difference I could not see on these 2 pairs.






So nice times ahead.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Courtesy of a very nice gentleman from the community, who decided to pursue other oportunities and sold a part of his tube collection, I was able to add some very good tubes to mine. Among them there is a pair of CV2523 straight brown base, some chrome top 5998 and also some tubes I always wanted but never had the chance to have, Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass. These CV2523 tubes have no logo, but on one of them I see a small shape reminding of a former GEC logo, so I suspect these were branded as GEC. Anyway they look almost identical to the "holy grail" and I think they are identical, construction wise, to the famous round brown base.
> 
> So now gents, time to roll some GEC (or what they are) 6AS7G + PsVane CV181T2 on Elise:
> 
> ...


Looking good!, you've picked up some legendary tubes!, not jealous ... much! .


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> Courtesy of a very nice gentleman from the community, who decided to pursue other oportunities and sold a part of his tube collection, I was able to add some very good tubes to mine. Among them there is a pair of CV2523 straight brown base, some chrome top 5998 and also some tubes I always wanted but never had the chance to have, Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass. These CV2523 tubes have no logo, but on one of them I see a small shape reminding of a former GEC logo, so I suspect these were branded as GEC. Anyway they look almost identical to the "holy grail" and I think they are identical, construction wise, to the famous round brown base.
> 
> So now gents, time to roll some GEC (or what they are) 6AS7G + PsVane CV181T2 on Elise:
> 
> ...



Wow OH...a very nice collection of tubes indeed you've been lucky enough to bag!  Many happy hours of comparative listening ahead methinks!

Those CV2523s would certainly be GECs...all this family, including Marconi/MOV/Osram and some also with other different brand labels, appear to sound the same. But some do believe the _curved_ bottom Osram to be very slightly better, but I myself never noticed any real difference lol. ENJOY!!

ps. It is indeed a wonderfully clean, clear, detailed tube but yes, a bit light in the bass arena...my favourite power tube, before discovering the joys of the EL12 Spezial, and even more so the EL38...all eclipsed by the EL39 (especially in combination with the 'special' Mazda/Dario EL38 I've raved about on the Euforia thread! )...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## OctavianH

I think these are GEC but however, I observed a small difference in construction which I highlighted here:





In the left side there is my pair, in the right side a picture from a GEC 6AS7G A1834 CV2523 taken from the internet.


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## hypnos1 (Aug 22, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> I think these are GEC but however, I observed a small difference in construction which I highlighted here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No worries OH...most of my GEC/Osrams have your 'halo' getters...they are definitely the 'real deal'. There are some tubes that have "Made in England" printed on them, and are sometimes posted on fleabay in the hope some poor soul might mistake them for GECs, but are in fact Russian tubes - the (main) giveaway being they have inverted pan ('flying saucer') shaped getters.


----------



## LoryWiv

Wondering if anyone has experience with Northern Electric 6SN7 as drivers for Elise, as compared to other new production tubes costing around the same like Psvane CV181-Tii. 
Thanks!


----------



## chrisdrop

Hi

I am considering the Elise as my 1st tube amp. I have some (and will have some more) ZMF headphones and they are most often recommended with tube setups. I am keen to get a tube amp, which I bet I will like, and I don't want to just mess about with lower-fi options and just be disappointed. Maybe that is the wrong-way-round, not sure. Not sure how far "up" is a good start. 

A few questions for this thread:

Elise vs the Euphoria? Not sure how big the difference is between the 2. 
If I were to get the Elise with no tubes, how much could I expect to spend to get either 'middle class' or 'emperor level' tubes? This thread seems exceptionally full of tube recommendations for this amp. 
Hit rate and stickiness on tubes. Perhaps this is not so Elise specific.. I imagine it will take some searching to get "the ones" (or a few sets of "the ones for xxx"). Should I expect to go through 1,3,10, .. sets of tubes to land in a happy place?  
Any things you don't like about the Elise? 
Thanks in advance for the hand holding!

-Chris-


----------



## OctavianH

All your questions are very subjective and honestly I do not know the answer, because only you will know. But I'll tell you a few things.

1) All Euforia owners consider Euforia a much better amp than Elise. I will say only that it has better internals, it is silver wired while Elise is copper wired and it is 40% more expensive. Now, you know if you prefer the silver sound or the copper one. It depends on the genre, and also on the synergy with DAC or headphones. Here the best answer will be provided by the users who own both amps. And there are a few but they are usually found on the Euforia thread.
2) I would say there are no middle class or emperor level. Usually the price is based on availability and request. Basicly, there are tubes which are rare and more expenssive or tubes which are cheaper because not so many people were interested by them. But if you will join these threads you will find, for sure, help and good offers. I just bought some rare tubes from a very nice seller last week.
3) I have no idea, for me the best combo was found quite fast and then more than 1 year I tried different combos and could not surpass it. But I listen 99% to rock music and the others prefer classical or other genres which are suitable to other types of tubes. My question is: if Elise or Euforia will be your first tube amp and you buy it without tubes, how you will decide what first combo to take? I have to say that the stock tubes on Elise and also Euforia are good starters. F.A. are not selling their amps with entry level tubes like maybe other vendors. So you may consider the stock ones until you get used with the amp and your equipment.
4) Well, I never liked the heat management, I have a feeling that the amp sometimes during summer gets quite hot. However I hever had problems and you have 3 years warranty so it has to be fine. And I never like the volume knob without markings, but I solved this with a white permanent marker and some artistic talent to paint them myself.

I know I have not gave you direct answers, because the questions are hard to answer from my point of view. I can only tell that I am a happy Elise owner for 2 years and I quite enjoy the amp.
By the way, just to have an idea about the packing and unboxing, you can see here my post when I've received it:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fel...ost-for-summary.813488/page-698#post-14056151


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 27, 2019)

Hi @chrisdrop, welcome to the forum! For your consideration, I would add to @OctavianH's  well-stated answers above that some of it just boils down to preference as always. I auditioned Elise and Euforia side by side with several ZMF headphones at CanJam SoCal in June, and actually preferred Elise. Both were superb, but Elise had more musicality whereas Euforia sounded a bit more analytic and clinical. I suspect this is NOT how most perceive Euforia but I was coming from solid state amp and the warm euphonic signature of Elise really resonated with me, and still does driving ZMF Auteur. I do agree it probably has less sophisticated technicalities than Euforia but I was looking for an amp that would re-engage my love of listening to music rather than listening to my equipment. At some points I do note this gripe or that (bass could be tighter, a tad of grain in the midrange) but even when I note these I quickly re-focus on how darn nice the overall presentation is.

As for tubes, I'm still running the stock Psvane 6SN7 drivers and (I believe Russian) 6AS7G power tubes. I am interested in rolling (perhaps Psvane CV181-T or Northern Electric 6SN7 drivers, NOS 5998 or 6080 powers) but as tube options are many, it's been very useful to get to know the sound signature with stock so i can evaluate what I may want to try next with a baseline for comparison.

Elise is my first tube amp., may not be my last if future finances permit, but I am happy and satisfied with it with no upgradiitis urge except for perhaps some tube rolling ahead.

So unless the Euforia's cross-feed feature appeals to you ( I never used it on my last amp that had a similar option) or the $850 price difference is pocket change to you, I can recommend Elise as a great 1st high quality tube amp.. The usual disclaimer: YMMV. Happy listening.


----------



## Scutey

chrisdrop said:


> Hi
> 
> I am considering the Elise as my 1st tube amp. I have some (and will have some more) ZMF headphones and they are most often recommended with tube setups. I am keen to get a tube amp, which I bet I will like, and I don't want to just mess about with lower-fi options and just be disappointed. Maybe that is the wrong-way-round, not sure. Not sure how far "up" is a good start.
> 
> ...


Hi @chrisdrop , I can't really add much to @OctavianH very infromative reply, however I notice your location as London, now I'm not absolutely sure but I think Audiobarn in Old Harlow, Essex have both Elise and Euforia for demo, so if it's not too far for you it might be worth having a word with them, if you haven't already visited the website here it is.

https://www.theaudiobarn.co.uk/


----------



## Preachy1

LoryWiv said:


> an amp that would re-engage my love of listening to music rather than listening to my equipment.




THIS   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## chrisdrop

Scutey said:


> Audiobarn in Old Harlow, Essex have both Elise and Euforia for demo


 
This is one of the main reasons I was interested in the Felix products - I could find somewhere to demo them in/ near London. Your sig looks like you are in/ near Plymouth. I think we do have a different set of readily available products and demo locations here in the UK. Therefore, local refs always appreciated.

Also @LoryWiv - your comments are helpful. It sounds like you have been down the path that I have been considering herein.

Thank you again for the responses - all helpful and appreciated.


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## OctavianH (Aug 28, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> As for tubes, I'm still running the stock Psvane 6SN7 drivers and (I believe Russian) 6AS7G power tubes.



The stock powers of both Elise/Euforia are the same and you can see them here:






There is a round "C" logo with some "wings" on it which can be seen in the picture of the amps on the F.A. website and also here in mine:






So, if you decypher on your powers the winged logo you are most probably using these:
https://www.thetubestore.com/winged-c-6h13c-6as7g


----------



## Preachy1

Thanks for that info above.  I recently acquired an older version of the Elise (2016, I think) from a fellow head-fier (thanks!!!).  It has the powers noted above.  I also recently ordered a pair of Psvane CV181 drivers, due to arrive today or tomorrow.

I am thrilled right down to my socks with this amp.  I find that it pairs beautifully with just about all my cans (ZMF dynamics and planars, Audeze LCD-3 and XC, Focal Elegia), regardless of the source (DAP or Foobar2000>Chord Mojo).

If I had one suggestion, it would be relocate the power switch to the front.  The way my unit is positioned, I have to reach over it to turn it on/off.  I've singed my arm-hairs a few times reaching to turn it off after a long listening session.  

Other than that, I absolutely love the understated design.  I get a kick out of guests who look at it and ask "dafuq is that thing???"


----------



## Scutey

Hi Preachy, how to you find the Atticus/Elise combo, do the two have good synergy, bass highs etc?.


----------



## Preachy1

Scutey said:


> Hi Preachy, how to you find the Atticus/Elise combo, do the two have good synergy, bass highs etc?.


Yes, excellent pairing!!!  In fact, this pair gets most of the attention, probably about 40-50% of my listening time, with other amp/cans combos filling in the rest.


----------



## OctavianH

I have to admit that I think sometimes about Verite, then look at my wallet, then continue to think.


----------



## Preachy1

OctavianH said:


> I have to admit that I think sometimes about Verite, then look at my wallet, then continue to think.


Get out of my head!!!!!


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I have to admit that I think sometimes about Verite, then look at my wallet, then continue to think.


I've thought the same thing about the Auteur


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## OctavianH (Aug 29, 2019)

Well guys, there are moments in life when you need a good weapon. So I've bought for fun this weapon of mass destruction:







I have to admit it was at a big discount and the main purpose is to measure the temperature of some food products, but since it supports temps in range of -32C up to 400C I would say it might be suitable to find what temps reach the tubes on Elise. Next point would be to measure my backplate from the videocard of my gaming rig.
Oh, and in order to drag a conclusion I determined some fixed points of measurement:






And then just turned on Elise and measured these 10 temps from 15 to 15 minutes:






Now, honestly, I have no idea if this "thing" measures with precision or if these are just some fake results, but I was able to see that with a room temperature of 25C we reach in 1 hour a temp of around 60C in drivers and 120C in power tubes.
A curious thing was that the right channel tubes were not as hot as the left channel ones. Hard to say if these are real temps or I was just fooled by this wonder weapon. Anyway I thought I might share this with you. Of course, I'll try to take 2h and 3h temps aswell because I am curious.

Later edit: Of course, this has nothing to do with overheating or amp internals. The temps of the capacitors and the components inside the chasis are a totally different thing.


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## mordy

Hi OctavianH,
I have one of these inexpensive IR thermometers for a while now and find it very useful.
One thing to know is that you have to find out from the instructions how far away to hold the thermometer to get the correct temperature. I found that by waving the thermometer up and down along the tube I can catch the hot spot in the tube. 
If you go to the spec sheets of the tubes, you can easily find the the range of operating temperatures.
Being that the thermometer has a visible red spot projected where the measurements hit, you could position the beam to measure inside the amp through the ventilation holes.
It seems to me that tubes measure hotter when they are burning in, and afterwards they operate at a lower temperature. In general, it takes a while, maybe 1/2-1 hour, before the tube temperature stabilizes. Room temperature is also very important since it effects the overall temperature readings.
Socket savers help to lower the chassis temperature, acting as insulators, and a small fan pulling air away from the amp can lower the temp another 10C which may be beneficial.
And as you mention, two identical tubes may show different temperature readings. An educated guess is that a 10% difference is completely normal.


----------



## OctavianH

Indeed, this device is very funny. I found, however, 2 things which are fundamentally influencing my measurements:
1) Psvane CV181T2 tubes are coated, so the laser spot cannot reach the interior of the tube to measure a metal part -> therefore the temps are much lower
2) on Tung Sol 5998 I measure through the clear glass the Domino plate from "exterior" of the amp and because of the amp position I was measuring the Domino plate of the right tube from the interior, when I measured the power tube from the right channel on the exterior I found 120C. So both tubes are almost the same temp. I never thought the domino plates heat differently.

Anyway, I just play with this device, so do not take my actions very seriously. However, it is interesting to check these temps because I always wondered about them.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Well guys, there are moments in life when you need a good weapon. So I've bought for fun this weapon of mass destruction:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





OctavianH said:


> Indeed, this device is very funny. I found, however, 2 things which are fundamentally influencing my measurements:
> 1) Psvane CV181T2 tubes are coated, so the laser spot cannot reach the interior of the tube to measure a metal part -> therefore the temps are much lower
> 2) on Tung Sol 5998 I measure through the clear glass the Domino plate from "exterior" of the amp and because of the amp position I was measuring the Domino plate of the right tube from the interior, when I measured the power tube from the right channel on the exterior I found 120C. So both tubes are almost the same temp. I never thought the domino plates heat differently.
> 
> Anyway, I just play with this device, so do not take my actions very seriously. However, it is interesting to check these temps because I always wondered about them.


Nicely done Octavian!, especially the way you have broken it down it to sections. I have always wondered how hot our amp/tubes get, I would imagine with something like the Mullard 6080 it would be even hotter, also it would be interesting to know how much cooler the EL32 is or EL38.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Interesting to note:
The heat emitted by the tube represents inefficiency in preforming it's duty.  If a tube was 100% efficient, the only heat would be a slight warmth from the heaters.

Traditional incandescent light bulbs - same...the finger burning heat is from inefficiency of the bulb to convert the mains power, to light.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Nicely done Octavian!, especially the way you have broken it down it to sections. I have always wondered how hot our amp/tubes get, I would imagine with something like the Mullard 6080 it would be even hotter, also it would be interesting to know how much cooler the EL32 is or EL38.


These IR thermometers are very inexpensive - you can find them for less than $15.


----------



## OctavianH

I think those measurements are not precise at all, but anyway I would say that the 5998 are going up to 150C. The higher part of the Domino plate was hotter than the lower one, around 14x C. For the drivers I guess I need to use some 6SN7 clear glass and check what's inside. Of course if this makes sense I can try to repeat the measurements for EL or 6080.


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> These IR thermometers are very inexpensive - you can find them for less than $15.


Well I might as well get myself one, then I can check out all my tubes.


----------



## OctavianH

I've attended during the weekend a concert which quite impressed me at Posada Rock Festival 2019. A quite unknown band from Belgium called Evil Invaders had an incredible performance.



This band is not for everyone, but for sure, for the ones it is it will soon reach top 10. Now time to enjoy the music on CD and let Elise show us the way.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 7, 2019)

My 1st adventure in Elise tube rolling is the NOS Tung Sol 7236 pair below. One of the tubes was quite difficult to insert but now both are glowing gloriously and gorgeously in the power positions. Compared to stock 6AS7G, 1st impression is expanded stage width and treble extension, slightly more prominent and tighter bass. Surprisingly, they actually sound a bit less "tubey" and more analytical, but in part I suspect that's based on better staging, instrument separation and micro detail retrieval.

Not sure what year these are, if anyone can help me interpret the date codes that'd be welcomed. Also, recommendations for a 6SN7 that would pair well would be appreciated, as I  suspect the stock Psvane 6SN7 "UK's" may be holding the Tung Sol's and Elise back from their best. Considering some 1950's Sylvania brown bases but open to ideas from the more experienced Elise tube rollers here.  Thanks!


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## OctavianH

I do not have enough experience but I think the date codes are on the top in form of YYWW (year - week). On mine I see on one "6207":


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## LoryWiv (Sep 7, 2019)

I think you are right, @OctavianH. Over in the 6AS7G thread, *@JKDJedi* has the same top code as you!


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> My 1st adventure in Elise tube rolling is the NOS Tung Sol 7236 pair below. One of the tubes was quite difficult to insert but now both are glowing gloriously and gorgeously in the power positions. Compared to stock 6AS7G, 1st impression is expanded stage width and treble extension, slightly more prominent and tighter bass. Surprisingly, they actually sound a bit less "tubey" and more analytical, but in part I suspect that's based on better staging, instrument separation and micro detail retrieval.
> 
> 
> Not sure what year these are, if anyone can help me interpret the date codes that'd be welcomed. Also, recommendations for a 6SN7 that would pair well would be appreciated, as I  suspect the stock Psvane 6SN7 "UK's" may be holding the Tung Sol's and Elise back from their best. Considering some 1950's Sylvania brown bases but open to ideas from the more experienced Elise tube rollers here.  Thanks!


Hi LW,
What you are describing about the TS 7236 is similar to my impressions - they sound more solid state like. Personally, I prefer a more tubey sound, and did not find much use for the 7236. 
However, it is all about synergy, and I would not be surprised if people came up with great sounding tube combinations using the 7236.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 8, 2019)

mordy said:


> Hi LW,
> What you are describing about the TS 7236 is similar to my impressions - they sound more solid state like. Personally, I prefer a more tubey sound, and did not find much use for the 7236.
> However, it is all about synergy, and I would not be surprised if people came up with great sounding tube combinations using the 7236.


Thanks, @mordy. I think I may go with a more "tubey" driver (1950's era Sylvania or RCA) and see if I achieve that synergy. I am impressed with the 7236 overall for tone, timbre, detail and stage, and with a dollop more euphony would be perfect for my preferences.


----------



## Scutey (Sep 8, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> My 1st adventure in Elise tube rolling is the NOS Tung Sol 7236 pair below. One of the tubes was quite difficult to insert but now both are glowing gloriously and gorgeously in the power positions. Compared to stock 6AS7G, 1st impression is expanded stage width and treble extension, slightly more prominent and tighter bass. Surprisingly, they actually sound a bit less "tubey" and more analytical, but in part I suspect that's based on better staging, instrument separation and micro detail retrieval.
> 
> Not sure what year these are, if anyone can help me interpret the date codes that'd be welcomed. Also, recommendations for a 6SN7 that would pair well would be appreciated, as I  suspect the stock Psvane 6SN7 "UK's" may be holding the Tung Sol's and Elise back from their best. Considering some 1950's Sylvania brown bases but open to ideas from the more experienced Elise tube rollers here.  Thanks!


I have the TS 7236 as well and I found it a bit ss as well, as you rightly say a warmer driver will help, long with Sylvana's, and RCA,s others worth looking into might be the National Union CNU 6SN7 GT, I find it warm (ish) with very good bass, another worth thinking  of are Ken rad and also the EL3N, from what I remember goes well with the 7236 (adapters needed), also have you tried the search facility on this thread?, might be worth  go if you haven't, as all the major tubes have probably been tried at some time.


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## OctavianH

Enemy of the wallet strikes back:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273999281916


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## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> I have the TS 7236 as well and I found it a bit ss as well, as you rightly say a warmer driver will help, long with Sylvana's, and RCA,s others worth looking into might be the National Union CNU 6SN7 GT, I find it warm (ish) with very good bass, another worth thinking  of are Ken rad and also the EL3N, from what I remember goes well with the 7236 (adapters needed), also have you tried the search facility on this thread?, might be worth  go if you haven't, as all the major tubes have probably been tried at some time.


Yes @Scutey, the "search" facility on this and the 6SN7 thread have been really helpful, as have responses from the cognizanti like yourself, @mordy, @OctavianH and others. I am actually enjoying the TS 7236 but know that longer term I'll want to complement them with a slightly more "tubey" driver that doesn't detract from the great stage, realistic timbre and detail retrieval the Tung Sol's bring to the table. So we roll on...


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Enemy of the wallet strikes back:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/273999281916


I've heard mixed things bout ebay sellers for tubes...people promoting meaningless test results and / or relabeling low value tubes as something else. Is it best to avoid them all or are there some where in your experience the probability of an honest transaction is high?


----------



## OctavianH

Hard to say, I was lucky enough to buy my expenssive tubes directly from collectors, so no ebay auction in my case.


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## OctavianH (Sep 11, 2019)

This seems a good deal for an Elise 2018 (500£ when posting):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Feliks-Audio-Elise-2018-Tube-Headphone-Amplifier/153636237608


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## Preachy1

That's the starting price/opening bid amount, and you'll note that the sellers minimum price has not yet been met.  Also add shipping and sales tax.....


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## OctavianH

Hm, I did not knew that you can have a starting bid amount  smaller than the sellers minimum price. I mean I do not really understand what logic it has, only maybe to make the seller aware of lower offers and if nobody reaches the minimum price maybe he can decide to sell it for the best lower offer?


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## Preachy1

A seller can set a minimum price, then set a reserve price any amount higher then the minimum.  The idea is to set a low minimum bid to get the bidding started.  Whenever I sell on eBay (which is not too often anymore), I always set my starting price at $.99, and I don't use a reserve.  I find that a higher starting price along with a high reserve discourages potential buyers from bidding.

For poops and giggles, I'm going to put this one on my Watch list, just to see how it progresses.


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## Scutey

I shall keep my eye on it too, it will be interesting to see what it eventually goes for as my Elise was bought used from ebay for £480 2 years ago.


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## chrisdrop

Scutey said:


> I shall keep my eye on it too, it will be interesting to see what it eventually goes for as my Elise was bought used from ebay for £480 2 years ago.



Sounds like a pretty great deal.


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## JazzVinyl

If there is any interest..
I have posted classifieds for 2x each :

C3g
EL32
7N7 tall bottle

They all have FA (Elise/Euphoria) adapters, as well.


----------



## Scutey

chrisdrop said:


> Sounds like a pretty great deal.


It was indeed, seeing the price this one has reached already, mine seems like a bargain!.


----------



## Preachy1

HIya folks.  I reached out to the eBay seller to ask what the reserve is.  He stated that it is 700 GBP (I don't know how to type the symbol for Pounds Sterling).  So any bids at or above that amount will automatically make it a sell-able event.


----------



## barontan2418

Scutey said:


> It was indeed, seeing the price this one has reached already, mine seems like a bargain!.



Mine too. Although it is the 2015 version I got it for £400 and have never looked back. I think with the T1 and good tubes its not a million miles behind Euforia


----------



## Preachy1

Further question, when did the price of the Elise nearly double, (form $699 to approx. $1,400)?  The eBay seller claims his if a 2018 model. Was it still going for under $1,000 USD last year?


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## OctavianH

The model 2018 with some improved internals is sold at a higher price than the older one. Details here about what's different than the original:


----------



## TmKing

I bought an Elise. 

I don't know a lot about how to connect my Gear (ibasso dx200>chord mojo>Elise>sennheiser hd800). I connected the ibasso to the mojo via an optical cable, and the mojo to the Elise with a mini jack to rca.

The Elise still needs hours and hours to burn in, but I Already find the sound amazing, I never heard this kind of quality. 

If anyone has any tips for me concerning my setup, shoot!

Greetz!


----------



## Scutey

barontan2418 said:


> Mine too. Although it is the 2015 version I got it for £400 and have never looked back. I think with the T1 and good tubes its not a million miles behind Euforia


Blimey, bt, that was bargain of the decade!, and I wholeheartedly agree with you, 4 top flight tubes and the T1 is an outstanding combo.


----------



## Scutey

Welcome to the thread @TmKing , I see you joined Head-Fi on my birthday! . Good to hear you're enjoying your Elise, you don't say whether it is new or used?, my reason for asking is if it is new it will need a good 80+ hours before you even start to hear Elise hint at it's full potential, I would stick with what you have for a little while so you can get a good idea of how Elise sounds/evolves and then start to play with system/tubes etc, just a suggestion of course!, anyway enjoy your journey.

ps if you have time it's also very well worth looking through past posts on here regarding system and tube rolling, there is an absolutely mine of invaluable info on here.


----------



## TmKing (Sep 12, 2019)

Hello, it's a brand new one, I know it needs burning in but sounds incredible already.

I've read a lot but haven't been able to read every post, it's a mine for sure!

I haven't listened to my hd800 to, so I think that one also needs a couple of hours burning in time.


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## Preachy1

I am learning that it does NOT play nice-nice with some of my planars.  Cannot use ZMF blackwoods, but my LCD-3's work well.  Have not yet given enough time to the LCD-XC's or the Ori's yet.  With the Blackwoods, I need to dial the volume to around 11:00.  With the Auteur and Atticus (and in fact the LCD-3s) I barely get above 9:00 to achieve the same volume level.  But the overall sound with the blackwoods is, in a word, "sucky".  They perform very well with the Woo WA7 and with my lower end solid state setup.  

But every now and again, I stop listening to my gear and actually listen to the music!!!


----------



## OctavianH

With T1 my volume is around 9 but my Qutest is set to 3V output. Maybe I listen to lower volume than others.

@TmKing You have a setup close to mine with Mojo, how do you find the pairing with HD800?


----------



## TmKing

It sounds very good  can't compare it with a lot of other setups. The grado rs2e also sounds great.


----------



## OctavianH

Time for some french prog. metal. Adagio is an incredible band:



T1 + DH Labs Air Matrix + Elise are shining on this record


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Time for some french prog. metal. Adagio is an incredible band:
> 
> 
> 
> T1 + DH Labs Air Matrix + Elise are shining on this record



Not bad at all, this is a new one for me


----------



## OctavianH

I discovered Adagio by mistake 10 years ago when attending a concert club here in Brasov. The club was located in an underground parking lot which was used during the week by a major local bank. During weekend they were renting the place for events. At that moment they were promoting their 2009 album "Archangels in Black" which is also a solid recommendation from my side. A great band, for those who enjoy the genre. Unfortunately I was not able to see them live since then.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 23, 2019)

Spent some time tube rolling this weekend, here are some quick impressions:

1. RCA 6SN7 GT (JAN, 1948) drivers --> Tung Sol 7236 powers: Good balance of detail and euphony, balanced across the frequencies, great soundstage but the mids were notably grainy
2. RCA 6SN7 GT (JAN, 1948) drivers --> Tung Sol 5998 powers: Not a good combo., lost frequency balance, detail and smaller stage, bass was very prominent but a bit loose. Too warm.
3. RCA 6SN7 GT (JAN, 1948) drivers --> Philips EL32 powers: Pleasant enough but a bit anemic, flat sounding. The EL32 seemed ill-suited as output tube in this configuration
4. RCA 6SN7 GT (JAN, 1948) drivers --> Stock Elise 6AS7G powers: Not bad really, but no magic either. Stage width was a weak point and midrange grain reappeared (< 7236)
5. Stock Psvane 6SN7 "UK" drivers --> Tung Sol 7236 power: Enjoyable, great detail and stage but bass light."Solid state" quality, missing out on euphony and warmth, left me wanting more
6. Stock Psvane 6SN7 "UK" drivers --> Tung Sol 5998 powers: A bit warmer than with the TS 7236, decent detail but stage collapsed a bit and highs were brittle on certain tracks
7. Philips EL32 drivers --> Tung Sol 5998 powers: I didn't see it coming but this combination is the surprise winner. There is transparency, pace rhythm and timing that just sounds "correct," It has excellent balance across the frequencies, stage is smaller than 7236 but not constricted and there is air around the instruments that adds realism, emotion and presence. I find that I marvel briefly at the technicalities of Elise's musical presentation with this tube set BUT don't dwell on that as toe-tapping soon takes over.

I am both too experienced at the wallet-unfriendliness of this hobby and too new to tube rolling to think this is my endgame, but I am enjoying it very much. One other perk is that this Elise tube combination sounds excellent and fully engaging at low volumes, a characteristic I've come to recognize as amongst the indicators of quality sound.

Special thanks to @connieflyer for helping me out. The Feliks-Audio head-fi community is very supportive and populated with genuinely nice, generous people.


----------



## connieflyer

LoryWiv , glad you found a good combination for yourself. Dl32r a little weak to be used as powers but they do very good job as drivers the RCA was 1948 not 1848 date of manufacture it may not have been written clearly on the box. Or the tube, but can you imagine if you would have had an RCA 6 ns7 actually made in 1848, methinks you would be a very very wealthy man! Which you could use to sell to fund your next round of tube rolling. When I had my Elise I did a lot and I mean a lot of tube rolling it's very engaging finding new combinations and what they will actually do to what you hear once I got the Euforia, I started to get a little more selective with the tubes that I rolled. Part of that of course it's experience and part of that is the experience of others trusted members of the thread using their expertise to help lead me to the right combinations as well. Glad you are enjoying the music.


----------



## Scutey

Excellent review @LoryWiv, Elise + tubes seems like you're starting to realise Elise's full potential, enjoy your journey .


----------



## mordy

Hi LW,
You write that a good indicator of a great sounding combination is how it sounds at low volume.
I have another criterion but it may not apply to so many others:
I use my amp as a preamp, running it through a tone control section. Usually I leave everything on neutral, but I have found that a good combination allows for much more change when the tone controls are used, especially the bass.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 23, 2019)

connieflyer said:


> ...the RCA was 1948 not 1848 date of manufacture it may not have been written clearly on the box. Or the tube, but can you imagine if you would have had an RCA 6 ns7 actually made in 1848,



What, no pre-Civil War tubes? Seriously, thanks for the correction, I've edited my post...


----------



## connieflyer

Yeah unfortunately no Civil War is available! Hope you did not take offense that I would correct you, but we try to strive for the fax here on this thread, and I knew that it was just a slight error but like to make sure that things are on the up-and-up. I wouldn't want somebody else that's new to tube start looking for 1848 RCA tubes! Have a good one


----------



## OctavianH

This is what I call beauty gents, metal based tubes with retro white markings near some metallic headphones. And the sound is no less that at the same level.







And above:






What to say, my eyes and ears are happy. A very good combo, energetic and clean. The RCA 7N7 are underrated, being one of the best drivers one can have with a very good price/sound ratio.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> This is what I call beauty gents, metal based tubes with retro white markings near some metallic headphones. And the sound is no less that at the same level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To the best of my knowledge, all 7N7 loctal tubes were made by Sylvania (with the exception of National Union, which Sylvania later bought). You can shop for price by going to rebranded ones - there are many.
For those who have a 12V switch, you can look for 14N7 which are even less expensive.
These tubes are supposed to be in the 6SN7 family.


----------



## OctavianH (Sep 26, 2019)

mordy said:


> To the best of my knowledge, all 7N7 loctal tubes were made by Sylvania (with the exception of National Union, which Sylvania later bought). You can shop for price by going to rebranded ones - there are many.



Unfortunately it is not easy to find 7N7 in Europe. But I saw some decent deals in the US. However, I decided to stop buying tubes for a while since I already have a quite good collection.

Later Edit:

Does anyone know what is the difference between Philips 6080 SQ (Special Quality) and Mullard 6080? For me these look identical.


----------



## Preachy1

I like the way the volume markers are so visible on your unit.  Mine are just black, can't really see them at all.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> This is what I call beauty gents, metal based tubes with retro white markings near some metallic headphones. And the sound is no less that at the same level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Keep on enjoying those tubes Octavian, you certainly have an impressive set up and tube collection, respect! .


----------



## mordy (Sep 26, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> Unfortunately it is not easy to find 7N7 in Europe. But I saw some decent deals in the US. However, I decided to stop buying tubes for a while since I already have a quite good collection.
> 
> Later Edit:
> 
> Does anyone know what is the difference between Philips 6080 SQ (Special Quality) and Mullard 6080? For me these look identical.


In all likelihood the Mullards are rebranded Philips tubes ( and sold at a much higher price).

Sylvania = Philips re 6080


----------



## OctavianH (Sep 27, 2019)

Preachy1 said:


> I like the way the volume markers are so visible on your unit.  Mine are just black, can't really see them at all.



It was a personal addition to the original design. I bought a permanent white marker and just followed the black markings. For me that volume was unusable with that black on black design because of the light orientation the position of Elise is somehow in the shade. Now it is perfect.



mordy said:


> In all likelihood the Mullards are rebranded Philips tubes ( and sold at a much higher price).
> 
> Sylvania = Philips re 6080



I've seen some listings of these Philips 6080 SQ at around 250 EUR for a pair which is definitely crazy since a Mullard 6080 is around 30-40 EUR. For example this one:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-MULL...-rebranded-Philips-code-AJ1-R1F4/133041779276

At the moment of posting:


----------



## Oskari

OctavianH said:


> Does anyone know what is the difference between Philips 6080 SQ (Special Quality) and Mullard 6080? For me these look identical.


No difference. Mullard made those tubes. Philips owned Mullard.


mordy said:


> In all likelihood the Mullards are rebranded Philips tubes ( and sold at a much higher price).
> 
> Sylvania = Philips re 6080


Philips *ECG* = Sylvania. Philips bought (the relevant part of) Sylvania and called it Philips ECG.


OctavianH said:


> I've seen some listings of these Philips 6080 SQ at around 250 EUR for a pair which is definitely crazy since a Mullard 6080 is around 30-40 EUR.


Buyers must educate themselves.


----------



## noverbeck

I'm looking to begin rolling tubes on my Feliks Elise after a little over a year of ownership with Thomson 6080WA and Silvertone 6SN7GTB, paired with HD600 and Beyerdynamic T1 Gen 1 headphones. I've also used my LCD-2 with the Elise, but find the bass is a little more muddled, lacking the impact and speed from a solid state.

I would like to tighten the bass and add a little more warmth to the T1s. I'd prefer not to use adapters and keep the price for tubes under 100$ US. I've combed a little through the pages, but its a bit overwhelming of a thread. I've seen the RCA 6AS7G and Tung Sol 5998 recommended a lot, the prior being within my price range. Are there any other recommendations? Thanks!


----------



## LoryWiv

noverbeck said:


> I'm looking to begin rolling tubes on my Feliks Elise after a little over a year of ownership with Thomson 6080WA and Silvertone 6SN7GTB, paired with HD600 and Beyerdynamic T1 Gen 1 headphones. I've also used my LCD-2 with the Elise, but find the bass is a little more muddled, lacking the impact and speed from a solid state.
> 
> I would like to tighten the bass and add a little more warmth to the T1s. I'd prefer not to use adapters and keep the price for tubes under 100$ US. I've combed a little through the pages, but its a bit overwhelming of a thread. I've seen the RCA 6AS7G and Tung Sol 5998 recommended a lot, the prior being within my price range. Are there any other recommendations? Thanks!



PM sent.


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, someone said something about Ken-Rad VT-99 ?


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, someone said something about Ken-Rad VT-99 ?


Those are indeed very handsome. What are your impressions of the sound quality?


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Those are indeed very handsome. What are your impressions of the sound quality?



I need more time to have a final assessment, but these are very good drivers for 5998. A little bit too "polite" for me because I listen mostly to rock music where a little bit of distorsion is needed but I think this combo is a neutral and detailed one. And indeed, these are beautiful. I think somehow about these as about the RCA 5692 combined with Tung Sol 5998:






These red based ones are also looking nice.


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> Those are indeed very handsome. What are your impressions of the sound quality?


I have the same K-R VT-99 as Octavian, I find it has a warm tubey sound, good tone, similar to RCA VT-231, as O said not great with rock , which I listen to as well, but rather good with jazz, good but slightly soft bass.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I need more time to have a final assessment, but these are very good drivers for 5998. A little bit too "polite" for me because I listen mostly to rock music where a little bit of distorsion is needed but I think this combo is a neutral and detailed one. And indeed, these are beautiful. I think somehow about these as about the RCA 5692 combined with Tung Sol 5998:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those RCA 5692 look rather cute with their red bases


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Those RCA 5692 look rather cute with their red bases



They are really nice tubes but overpriced in my opinion. For me the best sound/price ratio are the RCA 7N7 and as far as I know Sylvania made all of them (as @mordy advised). The RCA 7N7 are incredible for their price.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> They are really nice tubes but overpriced in my opinion. For me the best sound/price ratio are the RCA 7N7 and as far as I know Sylvania made all of them (as @mordy advised). The RCA 7N7 are incredible for their price.


Maybe I might buy a pair and give them a try, I've had a look and there are a few good pairs at a reasonable price for sale.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> They are really nice tubes but overpriced in my opinion. For me the best sound/price ratio are the RCA 7N7 and as far as I know Sylvania made all of them (as @mordy advised). The RCA 7N7 are incredible for their price.


Hi Octavian,
There is a story (don't know if it is true) that a seller had a large supply of the red base RCAs and went on a publicity campaign extolling these tubes and asking high prices as well. (Not saying anything about how they sound (I don't have them) - only speaking about pricing.
It appears to me that tubes are confusing to many people - they look more or less alike, even though to people who know, one variant can sound much better than another, similar looking tube. The differences may be tiny, with hard to see visible clues.
That's why it makes so much easier to hawk something that is easily identifiable, such as a red base among all the black and brown ones. Instant expertise lol!
And you all know that the GEC 6AS7 with the rounded base sound better than the regular base, don't you?
People who have heard both claim that there is no difference in sound, but the rounded base is more expensive.




Here is a red base RCA 5692 for $120. The number 7630 is not a mistake - it is just the date code: 30th week 1976.
Another tube, albeit great sounding, but can be pricey, is the Tung Sol Black Glass Round PLate (BGRP) 6SN7.
Personally, I think that one factor of the high prices is that it is so easy to recognize it:




This pair can be yours for a mere $731.00
For some reason many tubes that come in both gray glass or clear glass (and sound the same) fetch a higher price for the gray glass. Go figure....

Just my 2c......


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> For some reason many tubes that come in both gray glass or clear glass (and sound the same) fetch a higher price for the gray glass. Go figure....
> .



I've read that the gray is usually a graphite coating to improve shielding....no idea if that's correct or sonically meaningful but it's noted by some sellers on their sites.


----------



## OctavianH

mordy said:


> Hi Octavian,
> Here is a red base RCA 5692 for $120. The number 7630 is not a mistake - it is just the date code: 30th week 1976.
> .



I agree with you and regarding the "red base" 5692 RCA, many claim it is a long life tube. Well, it might be if we would use it in the electrical conditions it was designed to be used, but as far as I know in our 6SN7 amps we are using it as any other 6SN7 therefore no long life for it.
Regarding the GEC 6AS7G "round base", I only have the straight base, but as far as I know, from construction point of view, the base is added at the end and usually has to fit in a specific environment. 99% the straight base and round base are the same and the rounded base was just for a specific PCB where the socket was different.
So sonically exactly the same. Anyway, the prices have gone crazy nowadays and I think people should be much more careful when deciding to buy such tubes.


----------



## Scutey

Here in the UK one of the tubes that goes for crazy prices is the Brimar 6SN7 GT, £400 + is not unusual, and, as yet, there is very little on the net about this tube, it may be good but £400 + good?.


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> I agree with you and regarding the "red base" 5692 RCA, many claim it is a long life tube. Well, it might be if we would use it in the electrical conditions it was designed to be used, but as far as I know in our 6SN7 amps we are using it as any other 6SN7 therefore no long life for it.
> Regarding the GEC 6AS7G "round base", I only have the straight base, but as far as I know, from construction point of view, the base is added at the end and usually has to fit in a specific environment. 99% the straight base and round base are the same and the rounded base was just for a specific PCB where the socket was different.
> So sonically exactly the same. Anyway, the prices have gone crazy nowadays and I think people should be much more careful when deciding to buy such tubes.


Hi Octavian,
Most tubes are engineered for 3000-5000 hour life, and the special quality tubes for 10,000 hours. The Russian IR tubes are only made for 500 hours, but that could be in a fighter jet or tank....
It seems to me that many of the older large tubes easily could last 10,000 hours.
Bottom line: It is very rare to read about people wearing out tubes, and many people report using tubes for 10 years or more before they need replacement. And that refers to people who keep the same tubes in the amp all the time and not inveterate tube rollers.....


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 2, 2019)

While everybody tries to find new types of tubes and adapters, I am the guy who re-discovers the old ones. Well, somebody has to care about these old gems who are lately neglected by others. I've enjoyed lately quite a lot these 2 combos:

1) RCA VT-231 + Tung Sol 7236






2) Foton 6H8C + Western Electric 421A






I was never a master of wording, nor cared about complex descriptions since we all hear and prefer different things, but I might say these 2 combos, alongside the "classic" for me Psvane CV181T2 + Tung Sol 5998, are almost all I need from all my tube collection. The rest are just... spare parts. Or maybe future discoveries.


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> While everybody tries to find new types of tubes and adapters, I am the guy who re-discovers the old ones. Well, somebody has to care about these old gems who are lately neglected by others. I've enjoyed lately quite a lot these 2 combos:
> 
> 1) RCA VT-231 + Tung Sol 7236
> 
> ...


Hi OctavianH

I've been running RCA VT-321's with TS 5998's in Euforia just lately with good results. My will power is weak so any new tubes do appeal to me but as you show with your tube combinations, there's some very good non EL tubes around.


----------



## Scutey (Oct 2, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> While everybody tries to find new types of tubes and adapters, I am the guy who re-discovers the old ones. Well, somebody has to care about these old gems who are lately neglected by others. I've enjoyed lately quite a lot these 2 combos:
> 
> 1) RCA VT-231 + Tung Sol 7236
> 
> ...


Yes you are flying the flag for the "old school" tubes, I have a fondness for the RCA VT231 + TS 5998, especially for late night listening, a kiss of darkness for the dark hours.

ps Although I have to add that like @barontan2418 , I too have a weakness for new tubes, what can I say, I'm a fool to my wallet .


----------



## connieflyer (Oct 2, 2019)

I bought a pair to the Foton tubes over a year ago, and thought they were very nice indeed.  But at the time new 6SN7's were flying in to my mailbox and I never got back to them.  I will have to pull the EL11 mesh plates out and see how they sound again. Thanks for reminding me. The RCA VT231 (1948) and TS 5998 were always a favorite of mine as well.


----------



## OctavianH

For T1.2 the RCA VT-231 and TS 5998 are a little bit too warm for my taste. However I have to agree that for HD800 or maybe T1.1 these might be a killer combo.


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 4, 2019)

If it is Friday it means Elise needs our attention. I recently observed that the WE 421A, which are clear top, glow nicely in the dark:







All my 5998s are chrome top and I never observed such a glow even if the construction has some similarities. Anyway I always liked the retro/industrial/steam punk look of these with the Domino plates.

And they also look quite interesting seen from the top:






And I start to appreciate more and more the RCA 7N7. These are incredible tubes for their price, too bad they are unavailable in Europe so need to be ordered from US. I think these are one of my best drivers to date.


----------



## Preachy1

I should know this, but can you ID the driver tubes in the 2nd image?  thx


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 4, 2019)

Preachy1 said:


> I should know this, but can you ID the driver tubes in the 2nd image?  thx



The drivers in the 2nd image are Psvane CV181T2. These are one of my favourite, if not the best, drivers for Tung Sol 5998. They are still in production, but not quite cheap, around 200 EUR/pair.






Thinking that you can find a pair of RCA 7N7 at around 40$ the price/sound ratio beats by distance the Psvanes. Of course, everyone has its own preferences and ears and so on...


----------



## Preachy1

That's what I thought.  thanks for confirming. I'm currently using the earlier version of the PSVANEs.  and yeah, I just bought a pair of 7N7s on the cheap!!!!


----------



## OctavianH

You are lucky to live in the US. For me if I order them I have to pay customs + VAT and shipping and for this value I guess I'll obtain them for double price. Anyway, you won't regret and if you do, I will gladly buy them from you.


----------



## Preachy1

thanks, I'll keep that in mind


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 4, 2019)

Blast from the past:






That small buddy is where it all began with tubes for me, some years ago. Good amp for those times, sometimes I regret I sold it with all the 6N1 / 6N6 tube collection and I had quite a few.

@Preachy1 I hope you have also adapters for them. 7N7 -> 6SN7.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> The drivers in the 2nd image are Psvane CV181T2. These are one of my favourite, if not the best, drivers for Tung Sol 5998. They are still in production, but not quite cheap, around 200 EUR/pair.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They might not be everybody's cup of tea (they are mine) but they sure are pretty.


OctavianH said:


> Blast from the past:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes they were good times and good amps those Little Dot's, I regret selling mine too, I still have a few of the tubes left, I have even thought of getting another, problem is I have nowhere it could go, as all my room is taken up by F A amps!.


----------



## OctavianH

I have the same space issue, and I remember that before selling it I made a 1:1 with Elise and unfortunately the Littledot MKII was much behind it. So I sold it with all my tube collection to someone and I never heard about it since them.
However, I have read some reviews about Littledot MKVI recently and I would be curious to hear more about it. I do not plan to buy it, I am just curious. As far as I see this has to be compatible with 2x6SN7 and 4x5998 which I have to say it sounds interesting.






Specs here:
https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/littl...lanced-head-amplifier-tube-pre-amplifier.html


----------



## Scutey

It does indeed sound interesting, has a good look too, sort of steam punk, not much has been said about it on HF as far as I can tell.


----------



## OctavianH

I do not expect the build quality of F.A and it is a different type of amp, OCL instead of OTL. And from design point of view, it has a 6.3mm jack on the back? Anyway, I would be interested to know more about this.


----------



## attmci

OctavianH said:


> If it is Friday it means Elise needs our attention. I recently observed that the WE 421A, which are clear top, glow nicely in the dark:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The 2 RCA 7n7 are most likely Syls. I have plenty.


----------



## Preachy1

OctavianH said:


> @Preachy1 I hope you have also adapters for them. 7N7 -> 6SN7.



Oops, I do not, but it looks as they are readily available and pretty cheap.  Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Preachy1

Can you confirm that these are what I'm looking for?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-7N7-7F...816650?hash=item41fd04ae4a:g:vHIAAOSwQrJbUX-q


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 6, 2019)

I guess those might work but to be sure I'll show you what I have bought in 2018:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pc-7N7-7F7-TO-6SN7-6SL7-tube-converter-adapter-for-you-amp/200918200712

The only problem is that I never tried these, I use now some adapters bought with the tubes. But they look identical, so I guess these are OK.


----------



## LoryWiv (Oct 8, 2019)

Hey Elise owners, there is a mini-rave session going on over in the Euforia thread for the new production Tung Sol 7581A power tube. It;s a fairly inexpensive pentode, needs an adapter and to be  triode strapped but appears to work safely and well with rave-worthy sonic results in Euforia.

I'm still enjoying Tung Sol 5998 powers with the stock Elise Psvane drivers, and have some new production Tung Sol 6SN7GT drivers ordered to compare. Trying not to muddy the tube rolling listening tests too much with yet another contender but man, they are excited about the 7581A in the Euforia thread.

Anyway, wondering if the Elise and Euforia amps are designed similarly enough that it's safe to use TS 7581A's  in Elise power position based on the Euforia experience, and more so, whether anyone has tried these with our amp to see if the great Euforia results are replicated with Elise. Thanks.


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 8, 2019)

TS 7581A have 0.9A so I guess they can be used as powers and also as drivers in Elise. The only problem I see is if you use them as drivers with some 2.5A powers which might exceed the max allowed 6.5A. Let's wait to see if someone tries them, I am quite happy with my current tube collection so I'll just wait to see what other are doing. I am too lazy to buy more tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

LoryWiv said:


> Hey Elise owners, there is a mini-rave session going on over in the Euforia thread for the new production Tung Sol 7581A power tube. It;s a fairly inexpensive pentode, needs an adapter and to be  triode strapped but appears to work safely and well with rave-worthy sonic results in Euforia.
> 
> I'm still enjoying Tung Sol 5998 powers with the stock Elise Psvane drivers, and have some new production Tung Sol 6SN7GT drivers ordered to compare. Trying not to muddy the tube rolling listening tests too much with yet another contender but man, they are excited about the 7581A in the Euforia thread.
> 
> Anyway, wondering if the Elise and Euforia amps are designed similarly enough that it's safe to use TS 7581A's  in Elise power position based on the Euforia experience, and more so, whether anyone has tried these with our amp to see if the great Euforia results are replicated with Elise. Thanks.



Hi LW...and apologies to Elise folks for not bringing you up to date sooner with my experiments of the 7581A suggested to me by @ZRW0 (specifically the Russian reissue Tung Sol, with_ *three *_round holes in the plate). I wholeheartedly recommend you go back over the past week or more posts on the Euforia thread for more info on this subject.

But in short, I have been amazed at just how good this tube is as powers...powerful bass; sweet treble and even more pronounced mids than I've heard from any other power tube to date. And all from a tube that can be had for $47 the *pair*, plus shipping on ebay.com (USA), and UK/Europe sources for a bit more as listed by @teknorob23 over on the Euforia thread recently. At this silly, cheap price it really is a no-brainer for anyone...especially as there's obviously a plentiful supply lol! 

I have put well over 100 hours on my first tube, with mostly 9+ hour sessions, and everything has behaved perfectly. Once again, total deathly silence with the vol knob at max, no music playing, and the amp hardly running even lukewarm. So it would certainly look to be another triode-strapped pentode(beam) that our amps can run with total impunity...and so cool as to in fact be _safer_ on the components than stock that can run _very _hot sometimes lol!

I could say much more, but restricted time for me at the moment means I must ask you to catch up at the Euforia thread...if you're at all interested...

ps. And yes, LW, I see no reason at all why this tube shouldn't also shine in Elise...and so I look forward to the first results from such a pairing! ...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 12, 2019)

I've seen that a lot of users here use ZMF headphones with their F.A. or other amps. Is there anybody able to make me a short comparison between models?
Specwise all look the same for me, even the design is close or somehow has some similarities but I am curious to see why there are so big differences in price and what is special with each one. I speak about Aeolus vs Auteur vs Verite. If someone can enlighten me, I will be very grateful. 

PS. I know that Verite is the new one, so therefore the biggest price. But I do not usually buy the idea that the latest model is the best. A good example is HD650 vs HD600. In my case I owned both models and sold the HD650.


----------



## Preachy1

Had a rather odd occurrence this afternoon.  I started getting some noise that sounded like electronic interference, very slight and only noticeable when no music was playing.  I tried reseating the tubes, readjusting the connectors and power cord, but nothing changed.  Then I realized that the noise was regular in both actual sound (slight static) and frequency (about every 8-9 seconds).  The amp sits right next to my computer, so I turned my computer off and then back on again, and like magic the noise was gone.

Any thoughts on what could've been causing this?


----------



## hypnos1

Preachy1 said:


> Had a rather odd occurrence this afternoon.  I started getting some noise that sounded like electronic interference, very slight and only noticeable when no music was playing.  I tried reseating the tubes, readjusting the connectors and power cord, but nothing changed.  Then I realized that the noise was regular in both actual sound (slight static) and frequency (about every 8-9 seconds).  The amp sits right next to my computer, so I turned my computer off and then back on again, and like magic the noise was gone.
> 
> Any thoughts on what could've been causing this?



Hi P1...ah, the hidden gremlins of computers lol!!  Just one reason why I personally am not a fan of using these as music source for best results from a highly resolving system, despite their other useful functionality (even when spending $$$$$ just to try and resolve/reduce said gremlins!!).

Anyway, I suspect it's probably down to the wi-fi function...or bluetooth? Thankfully you found the culprit without _days_ of searching/testing, and without _too_ much angst at least!  Hopefully you'll now be trouble-free for a long while to come ...CJ


----------



## Preachy1

HI H1 (hehehe), thanks for the comment.  Yes, the issue seems to have resolved itself.  BTW, I don't use the computer as a source into the Elise, it's just that the amp is placed next to my workstation.  It's where I currently spend a large portion of my time.


----------



## hypnos1

Preachy1 said:


> HI H1 (hehehe), thanks for the comment.  Yes, the issue seems to have resolved itself.  BTW, I don't use the computer as a source into the Elise, it's just that the amp is placed next to my workstation.  It's where I currently spend a large portion of my time.



Indeed P1...the computer - or laptop - doesn't need to be acting as source for it to cause trouble with tube amps especially, such animals often being rather 'pernickety', to say the least lol! But as with our better halves, wouldn't want to be without them!! ...CJ


----------



## Preachy1

Well spoken!!!!


----------



## Preachy1

With this knowledge in hand, even if the problem returns, at least I know it's not an issue with the amp, and that sets my heart at ease!!!


----------



## LoryWiv (Oct 18, 2019)

Wanted to share my impressions of the new production Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. I was unsatisfied with the stock Elise Psvane 6S7N "UK" driver, tried Philips EL32's, 1960's Foton 6H8C's, and the highly recommended 1948 JAN RCA 6SN7GT in combination with Tung Sol 7236 or 5998's as powers. None of them quite hit the spot, hindered with grainy mids, overly bright highs or anemic bass. I had little budget left so took a chance on the inexpensive Tung Sol new productions, and to my pleasant surprise 30-40 hours in I am really enjoying them with the 5998's as power tubes. It's hard to say they do anything TOTL but unlike all the other drivers I rolled in, there are no weaknesses. Bass has authority, mids are engagingly euphonic and while treble may lack that last bit of extension it is sweet, smooth and never fatiguing. Stage width / depth are excellent, (height a bit lacking). Detail retrieval for my taste strikes the right balance between being fully present but not distractingly analytical or unmusical. The note "thickness" is especially good, adding substance and weight but still refined and articulate.

I have no illusions that this inexpensive new production tube rivals the best NOS drivers or that my will and wallet will not succumb again to future shiny objects dressed in glass. However, it is nice to know an affordable, readily available 6SN7 can do so many things well.


----------



## connieflyer (Oct 18, 2019)

The TS 6sn7 has been my favorite 6sn7 of all the total ones I have. Recent rolling confirmed that. "● “The first version - tri-plate/D-getter tall bottle - was actually the same tube as the identically constructed WGT and WGTA, I have seen them mixed together in a factory bulk pack with identical date & batch codes - so they are all the same tube. Bonus, because it's a very nice sounding tube and because some unknowledgeable people look down on GTB's, they are easier to find & less expensive. Well balanced, rounded tone, reasonably good and tight bass, the highs are smooth and not excessively bright. A good all round tube.” –Robert H
● “Next was a version, also with tall bottle, but with O-getter - I find this one to sound virtually the same as the D-getter version, there may be some slight sonic differences for the obsessive types with too much time on their hands. Personally, I would rather listen to the music than worry about micro-differences of this magnitude. They are cheaper yet and a good buy.” –Robert H
● “Short bottle, tri-plate, early 1960's. Similar sonically to the earlier ones, a bit less open, still a very good tube.” –Robert H
● “But here's an inside tip - Tungsol late 50's and early 60's 6SN7GTB are exactly the same as the WGT and WGTA, except they have a black base - and nobody wants GTB's, so they usually go cheap. They are exactly the same tube, Tungsol simply relabelled WGT's as GTB's to fill GTB orders. I know this, I've had a bulk factory box that had tubes with the exact same date and batch codes - but were labelled either WGT, GTB, WGTA, or even just GT. All identical and come from the same production run. If you see some Tungsol GTB's, and CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT's, grab some, they are still an excellent value.” –Robert H" This is from the Reference 6sn7 thread here on Headfi  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/. Mine are the triangular black plate round getter black base white labeled.


----------



## OctavianH

hypnos1 said:


> Indeed P1...the computer - or laptop - doesn't need to be acting as source for it to cause trouble with tube amps especially, such animals often being rather 'pernickety', to say the least lol! But as with our better halves, wouldn't want to be without them!! ...CJ



My PC became a decent source for my huge FLAC collection since I've added the JCAT Femto USB board which is externally powered by a Sbooster with Ultra adapter. But indeed, without it the difference was big, now the PC sounds for me at the same level with my CD Transport which is connected via Optical to the same DAC. What to say, for me it seems the problem is solved.
What I would do, but at the moment I cannot afford it, is to add an M-Scaler to the Qutest. That would be a sensitive upgrade and might come into the future. One reason for me to sell the 2Qute and buy the Qutest was to add the M-Scaler one day. Now I start to think already about TT2. Well, that life, maybe I should get directly a Dave otherwise who knows...
But the source / storage for me will always remain the PC, since I use it also for gaming.


----------



## Preachy1

I understood about every third word of that last post!


----------



## OctavianH

My apologies, I will try to clarify: JCAT is a PCI express USB card for PC. Sbooster is a Linear Power Supply. M-Scaler is an upscaler for the Chord DACs which are compatible with it (Qutest, TT2 and Dave as far as I know). I hope now it is clear or at least understandable.


----------



## Preachy1

Yes, better.  thanks. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic; sorry if my comment came out that way!!!


----------



## OctavianH

No problem, I had a long fight with the "gremlins" and sound quality when using the source as a PC. In my opinion, a setup like the one described solves the problem and might be one of the best. For me, used to work on a PC more than 10 hours per day, such a setup is the most comfortable one and the ability to search and organize everything, or customize the player in the way I like (I use Foobar2000) is important to me. But yes, a normal desktop PC without these "tweaks" is much worse than a dedicated music server like many form users are using.


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> No problem, I had a long fight with the "gremlins" and sound quality when using the source as a PC. In my opinion, a setup like the one described solves the problem and might be one of the best. For me, used to work on a PC more than 10 hours per day, such a setup is the most comfortable one and the ability to search and organize everything, or customize the player in the way I like (I use Foobar2000) is important to me. But yes, a normal desktop PC without these "tweaks" is much worse than a dedicated music server like many form users are using.



Hi OH...computer/laptop sure is a very versatile and convenient vehicle for handling one's music collection. But to get top class audio performance out of them does indeed demand a great deal of (often quite expensive) 'tweaking' to get anywhere near a (good quality) dedicated music player. And so as always, one has to make some difficult choices sometimes lol ...CJ


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> My apologies, I will try to clarify: JCAT is a PCI express USB card for PC. Sbooster is a Linear Power Supply. M-Scaler is an upscaler for the Chord DACs which are compatible with it (Qutest, TT2 and Dave as far as I know). I hope now it is clear or at least understandable.


Do you find the Jcat USB board to produce better results than using a DDC such as the Singxer SU-1 which I have found to improve things greatly and allows me to use a 2s connection to my DAC?


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Do you find the Jcat USB board to produce better results than using a DDC such as the Singxer SU-1 which I have found to improve things greatly and allows me to use a 2s connection to my DAC?



Honestly I have no idea, I never heard the Singxer SU-1 but I read about it and it has a very good reputation. I can only say that the JCAT externally powered (with a linear power supply providing clean 5V DC) > ISO Regen > iFi iUSB3.0+ iGalvanic3.0 (at least to my ears). I never tried the JCAT powered by the PC PSU even if it has such an option. My idea was to separate PC / audio as much as possible and bought directly a Sbooster to power it. I think also a network streamer might work very well... however I cannot renounce of my PC so I have to stick to my solution which was not cheap but sounds very good to me.


----------



## hypnos1

LoryWiv said:


> Wanted to share my impressions of the new production Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. I was unsatisfied with the stock Elise Psvane 6S7N "UK" driver, tried Philips EL32's, 1960's Foton 6H8C's, and the highly recommended 1948 JAN RCA 6SN7GT in combination with Tung Sol 7236 or 5998's as powers. None of them quite hit the spot, hindered with grainy mids, overly bright highs or anemic bass. I had little budget left so took a chance on the inexpensive Tung Sol new productions, and to my pleasant surprise 30-40 hours in I am really enjoying them with the 5998's as power tubes. It's hard to say they do anything TOTL but unlike all the other drivers I rolled in, there are no weaknesses. Bass has authority, mids are engagingly euphonic and while treble may lack that last bit of extension it is sweet, smooth and never fatiguing. Stage width / depth are excellent, (height a bit lacking). Detail retrieval for my taste strikes the right balance between being fully present but not distractingly analytical or unmusical. The note "thickness" is especially good, adding substance and weight but still refined and articulate.
> 
> I have no illusions that this inexpensive new production tube rivals the best NOS drivers or that my will and wallet will not succumb again to future shiny objects dressed in glass. However, it is nice to know an affordable, readily available 6SN7 can do so many things well.



Hi LW...congrats on finding another reissue Tung Sol that appears to be punching well above its weight, and could be yet another inexpensive tube for folks to try, without breaking the bank lol! ...


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Hi LW...congrats on finding another reissue Tung Sol that appears to be punching well above its weight, and could be yet another inexpensive tube for folks to try, without breaking the bank lol! ...


In the early days FA used to supply the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB reissue with the Elise.
Personally I found it too surupy (too slow) but that was with the Russian 6H13C tubes.
There is an early Foton 6H8C with ladder plates (ribbed anode) from 1952-55 that sounds excellent. Maybe not so easy to find but should not be very expensive.


----------



## LoryWiv (Oct 18, 2019)

mordy said:


> In the early days FA used to supply the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB reissue with the Elise.
> Personally I found it too surupy (too slow) but that was with the Russian 6H13C tubes.
> There is an early Foton 6H8C with ladder plates (ribbed anode) from 1952-55 that sounds excellent. Maybe not so easy to find but should not be very expensive.


Hi @mordy. I would agree that stage height and speed are not the strongest attributes but overall at less than $30 for each tube I think they meet the definition of punching above their weight. Used with the Tung Sol 7236 as powers I appreciated better speed and resolution but overall sound was quite solid-state in character and not as euphonic. Trade-offs abound. I'm still interested in trying the Psvane CV 181 Mark II but they are considerably pricier. I may try the 7581A Tung Sol as powers that @Hypnos and other are raving about over on the euphoria thread, and see if they provide some synergy with these as drivers. Endless permutations, endless fun!


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> Hi @mordy. I would agree that stage height and speed are not the strongest attributes but overall at less than $30 for each tube I think they meet the definition of punching above their weight. Used with the Tung Sol 7236 as powers I appreciated betters but the overall sound was quite solid-state in character and not as euphonic. Trade-offs abound. I'm still interested in trying the Psvane CV 181 Mark II but they are considerably pricier I would you want


Re the Psvane I have the suspicion that they come at different price points and packaging but possibly could all be the same. Maybe go for the least expensive pair and put up with less colorful color schemes and less fancy packaging. (This is just a hunch - I don't have any scientific basis for this, but I found the marketing dodgy.)


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> Re the Psvane I have the suspicion that they come at different price points and packaging but possibly could all be the same. Maybe go for the least expensive pair and put up with less colorful color schemes and less fancy packaging. (This is just a hunch - I don't have any scientific basis for this, but I found the marketing dodgy.)


Good tip, thank you @mordy!


----------



## OctavianH

Has anyone experienced differences in sound between Tung Sol 5998 white paint and the green painted one? 

I've tried recently both pairs and for me the green paint sounds a little bit better in terms of clarity and bass punch. Of course, comparison was made using the same drivers. I know this does not really makes sense since the construction is identical and manufacturing years are very close ('55 vs '57) but still, my brain is messing with me and makes me think the green ones are better.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Has anyone experienced differences in sound between Tung Sol 5998 white paint and the green painted one?
> 
> I've tried recently both pairs and for me the green paint sounds a little bit better in terms of clarity and bass punch. Of course, comparison was made using the same drivers. I know this does not really makes sense since the construction is identical and manufacturing years are very close ('55 vs '57) but still, my brain is messing with me and makes me think the green ones are better.


Personally I think what you're saying is entirely possible. I don't have the green print version but I do have two pair of the white print and I'm sure one is better than the other too, I think it could just be down to the very slight anomalies in production, well that's my theory anyway!


----------



## OctavianH

It might be. One other thing I observed during sessions of tube rolling is that from time to time, especially when you use tubes with different parameters (like for example EL12N as powers and then switch back to 6AS7) the tubes do not always sound the same after you put them back to the sockets. Like for example the auto-biasing is not always providing exactly the same results. So strange are the ways of our amps and the circuitry inside them.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Personally I think what you're saying is entirely possible. I don't have the green print version but I do have two pair of the white print and I'm sure one is better than the other too, I think it could just be down to the very slight anomalies in production, well that's my theory anyway!


I saw a post that the clear top TS 5998 is the same as the WE 421A - haven't heard them so I don't know.....


----------



## mordy

OctavianH said:


> It might be. One other thing I observed during sessions of tube rolling is that from time to time, especially when you use tubes with different parameters (like for example EL12N as powers and then switch back to 6AS7) the tubes do not always sound the same after you put them back to the sockets. Like for example the auto-biasing is not always providing exactly the same results. So strange are the ways of our amps and the circuitry inside them.


Hi O,
I agree with you - I am always afraid of not getting back the sound of a great sounding combination after making a change and changing back again.
Usually i manage, but it takes some time until the amp stabilizes.


----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> I saw a post that the clear top TS 5998 is the same as the WE 421A - haven't heard them so I don't know.....


Yes that's what I read too, however, like you, I have no way approving or disproving this.


----------



## Oskari

_Dixie Chicks: You Were Mine_

What's ten years? Still an awesome song.


----------



## Oskari

Oskari said:


> What's ten years? Still an awesome song.


Ten years? It's been fecking 20 years. God, I'm old.


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## OctavianH

No, you're not. This is an old song:


----------



## OctavianH

For the tube experts here, I have a picture and a question. This is a Tung Sol bottom ring getter 5998?







All my chrome tops do not have this "O". Therefore I'm asking. Any difference in sound from the "standard" 5998?


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> No, you're not. This is an old song:



An oldie but a goody!


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

Hi All,

I have an Elise that I bought about two years ago, Ii has been a great amp to listen to. It seems to have developed a problem and the issue is not tube related as it does this regardless of the tubes installed. I listen to it with headphones and with a power amp and speakers. I was shutting it down the other day and I normally
shutdown the power amp then the Elise. I forgot to shut down the power amp first. The Elise dumped a whole load of power down the speaker wires pushed the bass drivers in my speakers right forward and burnt them out. It didn't touch the power amp, that's still working fine. I had to check if it is the Elise or the power amp, I have a spare
very old power amp and speakers, so plugged these in and tried it again, and the same thing only it didn't blow the speakers this time, just pushed the bass drivers forward. It never used to do this does anyone have any ideas as to what might cause this? I have a Euphoria too and that has started popping on start up, I have checked the tube sockets for poor connection and all seems to be fine, no sign of a bad connection. 

Many thanks.


----------



## OctavianH

While waiting the Genalex KT66 and the adapters to try the Tung Sol 7581A, I still enjoy some very good sound. On the power side we have the "Domino" plate army:






If anyone knows the story of these Tung Sol 5998 with top/side O-ring getter please share it. Some claim this is Tung Sol 421A, others a variation of the 5998. Based on the sound I would say these are 5998. However my pair is NOS and I have only a few hours on it.

A detail of it can be seen here:






From left to right:
Tung Sol 5998 top/side O ring getter -> Tung Sol chrome top white paint -> Tung Sol chrome top green paint -> WE 421A.

My favourire are ... the TS 5998 green paint, hard to say why.

PS. I still search a 5998 clear top pair, if someone is selling please PM me


----------



## OctavianH

I will post this also here, even if on Euforia thread it is an ongoing discussion. I tried today the Genalex KT66 + Tung Sol 7581A (both new production tubes found at very decent prices like 60 EUR / tube respectively 30 EUR / piece) and found a good synergy with Elise and T1.2.






I am on early hours and I definitely need more time, but I want to inform the Elise users that these are a very good combination at a quite good price, and adapters can be found in Europe in Bulgaria by contacting @Deyan or in China here made by Mrs. Xuling:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...er-adapter-For-Elise-Euroria-amp/193142155772

Deyan's adapters look like this:






Here are my KT66:






I hope these infos are useful, these are really great tubes for Elise at a bargain price for the sound quality they provide.


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## LoryWiv (Nov 19, 2019)

Received a pair of 1952 NOS Sylvania "Bad Boy" type 6SN7GT's today, installed as drivers for the Tung Sol 7581A. Impressions 1st few hours hour is that they are special drivers as many have claimed, definitely a step up in clarity and detail retrieval from the Tung Sol 6SN7GT's I had in as drivers previously. Bass is quite impressive on classic rock, but surprisingly the overall signature is more analytic than warm. Mids are clean and somewhat forward. The highs are more extended than the Tung Sol's by a wide margin and there is no sibilance. Stage is taller than with the Tung Sols, width and depth about the same. Speed and "attack' of the notes on keyboards and percussion is impressive. Overall tonality is less immediately engaging and "fun" versus the Tung Sol's but I suspect it is truer to the source material and rewards attentive listening. I am still adjusting to the Sylvania's sound and while they are technically superior without question, I miss the "fatter" note weight and slightly warmer coloration of the new production Tung Sols. I'm fully expecting this may change with both tube and brain burn-in, and perhaps a swap of power tubes to the Genalex Gold Lion KT88's once I get around to ordering them. For now, I'm going to continue evaluating these and see how they evolve in my system.


----------



## connieflyer

Tube rolling has come a long way, when I had my Elise the best I had was the EL3N


----------



## OctavianH

Still experimenting with the new production tubes, spending some time with Elise and Avantasia.






Genalex KT88 + Tung Sol 7581A. KT88 has more bass than KT66. When trying KT88 driven by KT66 it was a little bit too much for me in terms of bass and the high frequencies were a little bit rolled off for my taste. So I switched to Tung Sol 7581A as drivers.
I would say that for T1 2nd generation and rock music the Genalex KT66 + Tung Sol 7581A is the sweet spot and this combo has the best mids. If you want more bass or you use Sennheiser HD 800 maybe Genalex KT88 / 7581A are the best choice (or if you listen to classical music).
Anyway, these 3 types of tubes are incredible value for the price and are a must for every Elise/Euforia owner. I wonder if there is a headphone amplifier built for these and how it sounds compared to our amps.


----------



## Scutey

Can't remember the names but there are amps made for these tubes, I did look for info on KT66/88 and 7581a and came across some in other audio forums.


----------



## LoryWiv

LoryWiv said:


> Received a pair of 1952 NOS Sylvania "Bad Boy" type 6SN7GT's today, installed as drivers for the Tung Sol 7581A. Impressions 1st few hours hour is that they are special drivers as many have claimed, definitely a step up in clarity and detail retrieval from the Tung Sol 6SN7GT's I had in as drivers previously. Bass is quite impressive on classic rock, but surprisingly the overall signature is more analytic than warm. Mids are clean and somewhat forward. The highs are more extended than the Tung Sol's by a wide margin and there is no sibilance. Stage is taller than with the Tung Sols, width and depth about the same. Speed and "attack' of the notes on keyboards and percussion is impressive. Overall tonality is less immediately engaging and "fun" versus the Tung Sol's but I suspect it is truer to the source material and rewards attentive listening. I am still adjusting to the Sylvania's sound and while they are technically superior without question, I miss the "fatter" note weight and slightly warmer coloration of the new production Tung Sols. I'm fully expecting this may change with both tube and brain burn-in, and perhaps a swap of power tubes to the Genalex Gold Lion KT88's once I get around to ordering them. For now, I'm going to continue evaluating these and see how they evolve in my system.



Just a brief update that the above impressions of the Sylvania's holds true with more extended listening. The standout features are an overall neutral tonality, nice but not exaggerated stage, air / instrument separation, speed and excellent treble extension that is non-fatiguing. I am really enjoying the top end performance of this pairing. Mids and low end are very well done and the total presentation is quite coherent, even if lacking lack the degree of euphony i might wish for. I look forward to trying these with either Genalex KT66 or KT88...any recommendations as to which might pair better are welcomed!


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Can't remember the names but there are amps made for these tubes, I did look for info on KT66/88 and 7581a and came across some in other audio forums.



What I was able to find were speaker amps, but they had no headphone jack.


----------



## OctavianH (Nov 26, 2019)

Because I consider that KT66 and KT88 have an enormous potential on Elise and Euforia amps I tried to roll some drivers and check what is happening.

After I tried the Psvane CV181T2, the RCA 7N7 and the Melz 6H12C I had the idea of trying the Ken Rad 6F8G. What I found here is incredible:







These new production of Genalex KT66 and KT88 are incredible for their price, and combine very good with almost all types of drivers. But the Ken Rad 6F8G is a perfect complement and the best pair I was able to find until now.
I was able to obtain a very fast and detailed sound, mid centric and with the same signature of KT66 but with a little more detail and speed than using Tung Sol 7581A.
And this was exactly my problem on the KT66/7581A, I had the feeling of loss of micro detail compared with Psvane CV181T2 when driving the Tung Sol 5998.
It is incredible how some new production 60 EUR tubes are transforming Elise so much.

Later edit:

Another great one was Foton 6H8C + Genalex KT66






As I said, rolling these KT66 is a pleasure, it is very hard not to enjoy each one.
I tried also the Ken Rad VT-231 and the RCA VT-231 but they were too warm and veiled for me.


----------



## Scutey

Nice find!, must admit I had not thought of trying the 6F8G, must give it a go, along with the EL11 .


----------



## OctavianH

Well, the theory of never selling tubes because one day will provide to be useful striked again. The pairing of the 6F8G with the KT66, at least on Elise, was great. The same for Foton 6H8C which was a lot warmer but also very pleasing. What to say, these KT tubes sound good with everyting and the driver rolling with these on output was one of the most interesting times I had with Elise. What to say, never sell tubes and forget about what you know about some of the drivers when trying them on KT66.


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> Well, the theory of never selling tubes because one day will provide to be useful striked again. The pairing of the 6F8G with the KT66, at least on Elise, was great. The same for Foton 6H8C which was a lot warmer but also very pleasing. What to say, these KT tubes sound good with everyting and the driver rolling with these on output was one of the most interesting times I had with Elise. What to say, never sell tubes and forget about what you know about some of the drivers when trying them on KT66.



I've got the Foton's ribbed 52 in with KT88 at present, very clear and precise so much so that I've just ordered another two of same vintage (£10 including postage from Russia). Yet to try with KT66. As you say, these KT tubes look to be very versatile.


----------



## OctavianH

barontan2418 said:


> I've got the Foton's ribbed 52 in with KT88 at present, very clear and precise so much so that I've just ordered another two of same vintage (£10 including postage from Russia). Yet to try with KT66. As you say, these KT tubes look to be very versatile.



I have 2 pieces from '55 but I guess they are similar. As far as I know all pre '55 are the same (including 1955).


----------



## barontan2418

How are these combinations compared to your Tung sol 5998's, up there with them?


----------



## OctavianH

Yesterday evening I had the impression that the KT66 + 6H8C were at the same level in terms of bass with 5998 but with the sweet forward mids of KT66. But I had only a few hours on them.


----------



## OctavianH

This evening I continued the driver rolling: Sylvania 6SN7GTB, RCA 5692 and .... voila! I found another combination which sounds great:






Yes, it is incredible how KT66 changes everything and you feel you just have bought a new amp after a few years since you own it.


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> This evening I continued the driver rolling: Sylvania 6SN7GTB, RCA 5692 and .... voila! I found another combination which sounds great:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like we spent the afternoon doing the same. Syvania GT. GTB. GTA. EL11 and C3g. Also found GTB followed be GT to sound good


----------



## OctavianH

I tried also the EL12N which sounds decent. What to say, KT66 are a game changer for Elise and Euforia.






In the end I returned to Tung Sol 7581A which need more burn in, but at least these 2 evenings I managed to find out what these KT66 can do with my drivers collection. And the surprises were inded, many.

A nice try would be, I would say, EL11 or EL12 spez but I do not have these types. We will see maybe someone will try those and inform us. I have somewhere some EL32 and EL3N but tonight I am too lazy to try them.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys.

Great to see you're enjoying different drivers with the KT powers...and finding that so many have good synergy with them.

Glad also that Elise obviously welcomes the KTs in the same way as Euforia does. And yes @OctavianH ...it's as though these beam power tubes (unexpectedly!) take our amps to different, higher territory lol! 

In addition - and again, contrary to expectation - as I mentioned on the Euforia thread, a welcome bonus is that bass response not only goes so *deep*, but is also *solid* and *detailed*...not at all bloated or boomy....

So continued good luck with your rolling guys, and...HAPPY LISTENING!...CJ


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> I tried also the EL12N which sounds decent. What to say, KT66 are a game changer for Elise and Euforia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 I didn't find the EL11 combo special not tried EL12 yet. Time to listen to our great amp.Bye.


----------



## Scutey (Nov 27, 2019)

OctavianH said:


> I tried also the EL12N which sounds decent. What to say, KT66 are a game changer for Elise and Euforia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats on the tube rolling you've done with KT66, sounds like you've made some good discoveries!, I've tried the first of your recommendations, the Foton 6H8C ribber anode, and it's a winner for me!, fairly warm, good detail, bass is very good too, the KT seems to bring out the best in this driver, it's the best I have heard this one and it's a combo I will use in future! 

ps had a quick listen last night with the EL11, and from what I heard it sounded pretty good, very dynamic, lots of detail in the mids, will have to give them a longer listen to draw any proper conclusons.


----------



## LoryWiv (Jan 6, 2020)

For anyone perusing this forum who's not yet taken the plunge: There is a 15% flash sale on GL KT66 on TubeDepot.com, and an additional discount if you register! I went ahead with ordering pairs of both KT66 and KT88. Tubes should be here next week. I look forward to burning them  in and commencing the listening joy!   More to follow.


----------



## OctavianH

After an *absolutely incredible* performance of the japanese band Mono, yesterday, here in Brasov, in Rockstadt club, the show being part of the "20 Years Anniversary Tour" I have decided to remain in the same mood.







This is a recording from Germany, to have an idea about how this band sounds.



A killer band which deserves no less than the best tubes possible. KT66 + 7581A are doing again a wonderful job.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys....as promised, *an update on KT88s as drivers to the same as powers - especially re. possible hum from the 66s as drivers.
*
I'm glad to report that with the quad of KT88s, the hum I got via my HD650s from KT66s as drivers to 88 powers has *GONE!!*...thanks to the slightly lower gain of the 88 . 

And not only this welcome benefit, but their performance is also superior to the KT66s - more details over at the Euforia thread...from @connieflyer on page 495 : https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.8317page-495   and myself on page 496...for anyone interested lol ...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## Preachy1

spam alert!!!!!


----------



## LoryWiv

Just a brief update to report that the KT66 driving KT88 powers in Elise had a lot going for it, but at 50 + hours sounded a bit dry and sterile despite virtues of excellent detail retrieval, instrument separation, and well-balanced frequency extension. It especially underperformed at low volumes. I've replaced the KT66 with Tung Sol 7581A drivers this evening. Voila, more musicality and engaging euphony have returned, perhaps slightly fewer "technicalities" to rave about but very enjoyable.


----------



## OctavianH

I have experienced exactly what you describe. For me the perfect combo is KT66 + 7581A. However, on Euforia which is a different sounding amplifier, the KT88 sounds better, as many reported here.


----------



## richdytch

My Elise has been sitting dormant for some months. I got used to using a Schiit Magni 1 which, while I know isn't as accomplished an amp, was very convenient and was a nice match for my old Arcam rDac. For some time I've been on the verge of selling the Elise. Then my rDac bit the dust, which I was somewhat upset about - but still, I got it second hand and have had 10 years' use out of it. But I found myself without a DAC for my headphone setup - not good as I'm music dependent when working and the HP output of my computer sucks. So just wanting *something* to do the DAC job, I ordered a Schiit Modi 3. Was running it with the Magni for a week or so, and fairly happy with it.  Then it occured to me that I'd not heard the Modi with the Elise. Linked them up, and discovered they're very happy together. I had to swap my Mullard 6080 powers out, because they were a bit too syrupy for this combination - especially with the RCA smoked glass 1945 VT231 pre tubes I'm running. Put some cheap used RCA 6080 in, and it's all sounding glorious. So the Elise is back in daily use and has a reprieve. I think it'd take a lot for me to actually make the move and sell it. Very impressed with the Modi for the money - approx 1/3rd of what the Arcam would have cost new in the day - let alone with inflation - and a very distinct upgrade from the Arcam.


----------



## OctavianH

Being impressed by the KT66 / 7581A new production tubes I decided to continue my journey in this area, but this time trying some NOS. So, I present you the GE 7581A/KT66 "Fat Bottle":






The tube is smaller than the Tung Sol remake:






Regarding the sound,  I find these a little bit warmer than the russian Tung Sol 7581A but also with better micro-detail. Overall, the sound is fuller and more detailed, keeping the same "mid-centric" signature of the Gold Lions KT66.
I will need more hours to understand these, but this combo is a keeper and the first impression is that it exceeds the russian one, while keeping the same overall presentation. Good times I am living, when almost all the combinations of these tube types sounds great.






Tomorrow I hope I will present you a full NOS KT66 / 7581A combo! Stay tuned. Over and out.


----------



## Scutey

Good to hear your enjoying them, they sound very promising, somewhat different construction too, by the looks of it, and if they continue to improve I might be tempted to get a pair myself.

ps great pics, as always, shows off the new tubes really well.


----------



## OctavianH

As promissed, let me present you maybe the best combo I've heard until now on Elise. 
Here is a pair of M-OV KT66 dated acording to the seller in July 1948:


















Being NOS, I expect that these will need at least 20 hours to reach maturity, but from the first minute I was blown away by the detail, layering and instrument separation which is far better than on the russian new production tubes. Even if the remakes are incredible value for money and bring our amps to a different level, for me the vintage ones are on top of them and the distance is not small. At least the combo I am currently enjoying is, for me and on my setup, better than everything I've heard until now, and I haven't said this since I've discovered Psvane CV181T2 + Tung Sol 5998 2 years ago.

So, most probably for a very long time from now on, my daily setup will be Marconi-Osram KT66 + General Electric 7581A. I cannot imagine something better than this...


----------



## Scutey

Those are great looking tubes Octavian, from my own pair, and as a general rule the earlier the tube, the better the sound,so I can imagine they are giving you a fantastic sound, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have one of the best sounding of the KT66 too, enjoy!! .


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Those are great looking tubes Octavian, from my own pair, and as a general rule the earlier the tube, the better the sound,so I can imagine they are giving you a fantastic sound, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have one of the best sounding of the KT66 too, enjoy!! .



I have no idea since I have no other reference for comparison than the Genalex Gold Lions KT66 produced in Russia in 2017. And those are quite good, but these are better. If they are better than others? Hard to say. I reached a point when I just do not need anything else than my amp and my music. I do not care about date codes, tube types or anything.
This is far beyond technology. This is pure music, and I never had any idea these exist until a few months ago. BUT (there is always a but) these are shining on intense guitar music, the driving mid-section being the central point of interest. So maybe others will not appreciate these as I do.


----------



## mordy

richdytch said:


> My Elise has been sitting dormant for some months. I got used to using a Schiit Magni 1 which, while I know isn't as accomplished an amp, was very convenient and was a nice match for my old Arcam rDac. For some time I've been on the verge of selling the Elise. Then my rDac bit the dust, which I was somewhat upset about - but still, I got it second hand and have had 10 years' use out of it. But I found myself without a DAC for my headphone setup - not good as I'm music dependent when working and the HP output of my computer sucks. So just wanting *something* to do the DAC job, I ordered a Schiit Modi 3. Was running it with the Magni for a week or so, and fairly happy with it.  Then it occured to me that I'd not heard the Modi with the Elise. Linked them up, and discovered they're very happy together. I had to swap my Mullard 6080 powers out, because they were a bit too syrupy for this combination - especially with the RCA smoked glass 1945 VT231 pre tubes I'm running. Put some cheap used RCA 6080 in, and it's all sounding glorious. So the Elise is back in daily use and has a reprieve. I think it'd take a lot for me to actually make the move and sell it. Very impressed with the Modi for the money - approx 1/3rd of what the Arcam would have cost new in the day - let alone with inflation - and a very distinct upgrade from the Arcam.


Hi rd,
I am also using the RCA 6080 in my Euforia. These tubes are too cheap and plentiful to attract attention but IMHO an excellent power tube. 
My other amp can accommodate 4x6080 and I am using them there as well together with another pair from a different brand.
The RCA 6080 is real sleeper.....


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## Scutey

Well this is why we love this hobby, so much, seems like you may have found audio nirvana, we rave about certain tubes but really they are a means to an end, in this case great audio .


----------



## mordy

It never ends....there is always something new coming up.
The question is - are we listening to our equipment, or to the music? Or both? Or sometimes this, sometimes that?
I admire the people that every change they make is an improvement in how it sounds; personally, many times what I am trying sounds worse than before, and back to the old set-up. 
But, slowly,slowly, I discover things that allow for an incremental improvement, over time, trying many different combinations. 
Audio nirvana? 
No. 
But better than before......


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## OctavianH (Dec 20, 2019)

Yes mordy, it never ends. And I also admire those who find something in every combo. In my case, I discovered Psvane CV181T2 and Tung Sol 5998 one month after I bought Elise and I returned to it everytime. I guess the only combo which can be at the same level, even if with a different sound, is this one. The KT66 combined with 7581A is providing me exactly what I was searching from the beginning. So I guess I'll keep these 2 combos as a reference and the others just on the "tried" list.

What it is frustrating me is that I never got to like the 6080 tubes. Many claim they are great, but in my case, I have 4 x Mullard 6080 and 2 x Philips SQ (which look identical to the others and most probably ones are rebrands of others) and I never obtain something I like with them even if I tried several drivers. I have no idea why, maybe 6080 are not for me, like the EL tubes, which also, I never got to like.

PS. This combo is not bad at glowing either:


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## Scutey

Well this combo is sounding immense in the Elise, Colomor (MOV) KT66 (not mine) and Tung Sol KT150, a mix of old and new production,  clear and powerful, lots of extension top to bottom, great micro detail, instrument separation, clear, clean but not clinical.


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## OctavianH

What you describe sounds very similar with what I hear on my combo. The GE 7581A/KT66 are very clean and spatious. They are somehow reminding me of the RCA 7N7 but with a different flavour. The only minus of my combo is that the bass is not as good as of the 5998, otherwise the KT66 are superior in many areas.

By the way, does anyone have experience with Ayon Triton amps? Because I was lucky enough to find a pair of these:






These are Ayon KT88 sold with an Ayon Triton power amp and on one of the articles I found this information:
http://highfidelity.pl/@main-224&lang=en

More exactly:


> The KT88sx is a development version of the Black Treasure, designed according to Gerhard’s plans and manufactured by Shuguang. And the Austrian has vast experience in making vacuum tubes.
> And here they are, beautiful, brilliantly made KT88sx Ayon Audio. Their sockets are made from gold plated metal, just like the pins. The glass is covered with carbon particles (Shuguang talks about a polymer alloy) to help with focusing the electrons in the anode. Another material used in their construction and called Super Alloy helps maintaining the tubes electrical parameters for prolonged period of time. It took three years to develop this technology and Shuguang is probably the biggest company in the world manufacturing vacuum tubes.


So, this guy from austrian company Ayon, Gerhard Hirt, modified some Shuguang Black Treasures to obtain a premium tube which will equip his high end models. The only difference between these tubes on my desk and the ones in the article is the branding, mine have nothing printed on them. OK, so now my question: Has anyone tried Ayon amps? Ayon tubes?


----------



## OctavianH

Happy Holidays!


----------



## Preachy1

This has probably been mentioned previously somewhere upstream, but I'm just now finding that the Elise has a wonderful synergy with LCD-3's. 

Happy new year!


----------



## LoryWiv

Preachy1 said:


> This has probably been mentioned previously somewhere upstream, but I'm just now finding that the Elise has a wonderful synergy with LCD-3's.
> 
> Happy new year!


I am also very impressed with the the Elise and ZMF Auteur synergy, particularly since I've rolled in Genalex Gold Lion KT77's driving Genalex Gold Lion KT88 powers. A wonderful, cleanly detailed yet musical presentation.


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## LoryWiv (Jan 11, 2020)

Ordered a second pair of Genalex KT88 to run as a quad, should arrive next week, In the meantime, I rotated the Genalex KT77 to the power position and paired them with NOS Sylvania 6SN7WGT drivers. Can Elise ever sound bad? I don't think so. This new pairing definitely adds a certain energetic quality to the sound. PRaT (to the extent I understand that term) is best I've encountered with Elise, as is stage and instrument placement and delineation. There is great air around each voice in string quartets, and stage width is very realistic if not huge. The balance across frequencies is very even, with the top end sparkle exceeding prior combinations (a bit jarring at 1st but not sibilant and with brain adjusting to this I am loving the extra top end extension). Cymbals in particular sound great. The mids are a bit less forward than with KT77 driving KT88 but still very nice with vocals.

So I will enjoy the Sylvania 6SN7WCT driving Genalex Gold Lion KT77 until I can test a KT88 quad. The versatility of Elise to accept multiple tube combo's and bring out something special with each is truly a pleasure.


----------



## OctavianH

After watching this guy I realised why I am so lucky: I drink and I use technology from 60s. Those were better times.



Drink whiskey, use tubes, enjoy life!


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## LoryWiv (Jan 16, 2020)

Received my 2nd pair of Genalex Gold Lion KT88's this evening and have the quad installed in Elise. Very early impressions are that the tonality is beautiful, just the right amount of warmth w/o being syrupy or precluding clarity, coherence and treble sparkle. Detail retrieval, instrument separation excel and note weight is just right.That said, presentation is less forward than KT77 driving KT88, the lower mids are a bit "wooly" and not as refined. Also surprising to me is the lesser bass quantity and control. Overall, a very pleasant listen but not mind-blowingly good thus far.

Major caveat is that the driver KT88's are brand new and I will not form any conclusions until considerably more burn in and listening have occured. Hopefully my socks will be duly knocked off as the drivers burn in. More to follow.


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## LoryWiv (Jan 18, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Received my 2nd pair of Genalex Gold Lion KT88's this evening and have the quad installed in Elise. Very early impressions are that the tonality is beautiful, just the right amount of warmth w/o being syrupy or precluding clarity, coherence and treble sparkle. Detail retrieval, instrument separation excel and note weight is just right.That said, presentation is less forward than KT77 driving KT88, the lower mids are a bit "wooly" and not as refined. Also surprising to me is the lesser bass quantity and control. Overall, a very pleasant listen but not mind-blowingly good thus far.
> 
> Major caveat is that the driver KT88's are brand new and I will not form any conclusions until considerably more burn in and listening have occured. Hopefully my socks will be duly knocked off as the drivers burn in. More to follow.


Update #1: Still early days at ~10 hours on the new KT88 driver pair, but already starting to hear the improvements. Lower mids are cleaner, bass control tighter, and treble extension remains terrific. Indeed, treble is right at the limit of sparkle w/o veering over the line into fatiguing.

The biggest improvements I'm enjoying are a wide but natural sounding stage, separation of instruments into their own space without sacrificing musical cohesion, and excellent layering in complex passages. Additionally, the sweet tonality I noticed right from the beginning remains a strong suit.

More to follow.


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## barontan2418 (Jan 18, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Update #1: Still early days at ~10 hours on the new KT88 driver pair, but already starting to hear the improvements. Lower mids are cleaner, bass control tighter, and treble extension remains terrific. Indeed, treble is right at the limit of sparkle w/o veering over the line into fatiguing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great news KT quad seems to be r out for you. Whilst waiting for GU50 adapters I've been trying all combinations using 7581/KT66 and 88's. At present I'm using 88's driving 66's as power and Diana Krall is sounding rather sweet. If you have time and inclination I'd appreciate a second opinion.


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## OctavianH

It is very interesting for me to read what others hear using 4 x KT88 or KT66 driving KT88. This shows me how different are our systems, our preferences and our musical tastes. I remained here at NOS GE 7681A driving MOV KT66 and I could not find anything better. I plan to try in the future KT77 and KT150 in different combinations.


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## LoryWiv (Jan 18, 2020)

barontan2418 said:


> Great news KT quad seems to be r out for you. Whilst waiting for GU50 adapters I've been trying all combinations using 7581/KT66 and 88's. At present I'm using 88's driving 66's as power and Diana Krall is sounding rather sweet. If you have time and inclination I'd appreciate a second opinion.


@barontan I actually sold my KT66 as I preferred the KT77 driving KT88, but now definitely see the KT88 quad leading the pack. From memory I recall the KT66 sounding a bit sterile / overly analytical for my taste, wish I could say more. And of course as our friend @OctavianH points out, results may vary depending on other aspects of our system chains. For me, I find that with the quad, I'm spending less time assessing strengths and weaknesses and just enjoying whatever music I throw at it...you know that feeling where you stay up a bit too late 'cause you just want to hear one more track? Simply stated, it sounds somehow "right" and while the technicalities are there, the music itself is the star of the show.

I'll report back when I have more hours on the new drivers and to make sure this isn't in part "new toy syndrome", but I don't think so.


----------



## Scutey

@LoryWiv you're right about the Genelex KT66 being sterile but I would say though that old stock KT66, either clear or grey glass are far superior in every way and go very well with KT/77, 88, and my favourite, driving the TS KT150.


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## LoryWiv (Jan 19, 2020)

Scutey said:


> @LoryWiv you're right about the Genelex KT66 being sterile but I would say though that old stock KT66, either clear or grey glass are far superior in every way and go very well with KT/77, 88, and my favourite, driving the TS KT150.


Good info., thanks @Scutey. I'm hoping the Genalex GL KT88 quad keeps me happy for a good while, as the last few months of tube rolling have my wallet needing a vacation. Interestingly, while I felt as you do about the new production Genalex KT66, I don't find the new Genalex KT88 to be sterile at all. They do retrieve "plankton" really well but the overall presentation remains highly musical. Thanks!


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## LoryWiv (Jan 19, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Good info., thanks @Scutey. I'm hoping the Genalex GL KT88 quad keeps me happy for a good while, as the last few months of tube rolling have my wallet needing a vacation. Interestingly, while I felt as you do about the new production Genalex KT66, I don't find the new Genalex KT88 to be sterile at all. They do retrieve "plankton" really well but the overall presentation remains highly musical. Thanks!


To clarify, my wallet needs a vacation from tubes...2019 was my wife and my 20th anniv., and 2020 she will turn 60...time to plan a BIG trip. I'm was considering suggesting to her we time it around an upcoming CanJam (NYC, Singapore?) but decided I'd rather stay married.


----------



## Scutey

Lol yes @LoryWiv , as much as we love our gear, I think, on reflection, it's probably best to stay on the right side of our better halves! .


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## OctavianH (Jan 21, 2020)

There are good times ahead. Today I received these babies:







And also these big babies:






So, we have to try this combo:






These KT150 are quite big and seem to get quite hot, but the overall sound of this combo is clean, detailed and fast. So I will spend some more time with these.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> There are good times ahead. Today I received these babies:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking good Octavian!.


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## OctavianH (Jan 21, 2020)

The KT150/KT77 was a little bit dry and towards solid state for my taste, despite the fact it has qualities. So I decided to add the MOV KT66 to the table.






I guess this combo is a little bit uncommon since KT77 have 1.4A and are driving the KT66 which have 1.3A but I have to say I really like it. It adds some warmness to the table, while keeping the level of detail and a quite fast presentation which I liked in the previous try.
I am trully in love with these KT tubes and I find something special in each new combo I try, sometimes being hard to decide which I like more. I have no idea if the output tubes need to have bigger amperage than the drivers, but this combination is dead silent and has something special.

At least for me, in my system and while listening to... well, an incredible track and one of the most anticipated albums of 2020:



Later edit:

Additional remark related to the KT66 / KT77 combo: The KT77 as drivers are reaching 90C and the KT66 as powers the same. I do not exceed the 6.5A but the drivers are hotter than the 6SN7. *Can be this a problem? *If others were fine with 4 x KT88 I did not care very much about this aspect.


----------



## hypnos1

LoryWiv said:


> Good info., thanks @Scutey. I'm hoping the Genalex GL KT88 quad keeps me happy for a good while, as the last few months of tube rolling have my wallet needing a vacation. Interestingly, while I felt as you do about the new production Genalex KT66, I don't find the new Genalex KT88 to be sterile at all. They do retrieve "plankton" really well but the overall presentation remains highly musical. Thanks!





LoryWiv said:


> To clarify, my wallet needs a vacation from tubes...2019 was my wife and my 20th anniv., and 2020 she will turn 60...time to plan a BIG trip. I'm was considering suggesting to her we time it around an upcoming CanJam (NYC, Singapore?) but decided I'd rather stay married.



Aah LW...I'm quite sure the quad GL KT88s will indeed keep you happy for a good while yet lol! 

And in the interests of a continued happy marriage, I can only suggest you put off any thoughts of the KT150 (if possible!! ) and await further impressions of the GU50 from others and requisite adapters coming on line. I can assure you this $3 to $4 tube, along with a $14 12V power supply block beats all comers (that we can use at least ). And when combined as a duo with the KT88 (or one's particular favourite) per power slot, the result defies belief, I assure you! Plus, I believe Mrsx has already made a dual 6SN7/6AS7G adapter previously which should be fine for using the 50/KTs in their own adapters...I would just need to check the spacing of the 2 sockets (nothing listed on ebay at the moment due to their New Year hols until 15th Feb alas).

So, LW, this could well give plenty of 'breather' time before the hobby/relationship ratio can get back to where it should be lol (but _diplomatically_ of course!! )....CHEERS!...CJ


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## LoryWiv (Jan 22, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> Additional remark related to the KT66 / KT77 combo: The KT77 as drivers are reaching 90C and the KT66 as powers the same. I do not exceed the 6.5A but the drivers are hotter than the 6SN7. *Can be this a problem? *If others were fine with 4 x KT88 I did not care very much about this aspect.


I've not noted excessive temperatures with the KT88 quad but have not measured formally. I did previously try KT77's driving KT88's, again temperatures seemed reasonable, and the sound quality had much to like (@connieflyer had good things to report for this combo.in Euforia as well). I subsequently preferred the KT88 quad, but KT77 --> KT88 was also really nice.

It would be interesting to see if reversing KT77 <--> KT66 positions in Elise would generate sound signature you enjoy with less heat, or perhaps if you're so inclined try a pair of GL KT88 powers with the KT77 drivers.

Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction, @OctavianH!!!


----------



## OctavianH

I will do several combinations, I will even try KT150 as powers driven by KT66 which has to be interesting. But I want to spend some time with the current one, and in this way burn in the KT77 which have only around 25 hours now.
Another interesting thing is that I won yesterday an auction on Ebay for a pair of GE 6550A which are direct replacement for KT88. So I will try some NOS 6550A soon as powers and inform.


----------



## Scutey

The KT66 is my favourite driver for the KT150, it adds more space and air through the mids and highs, and better detail imaging too.


----------



## barontan2418

Scutey said:


> The KT66 is my favourite driver for the KT150, it adds more space and air through the mids and highs, and better detail imaging too.



So many combinations, I've settled on KT88 quad in Elise and reverted back to stock (for now) on Euforia 2x 5998 clear tops driven by RCA 231 grey glass a long time favourite of mine.


----------



## OctavianH

Based on what I hear today, and it is similar to what I observed last evening, even if the KT77s are still evolving, the KT66 + KT77 is good, but a little bit too warm for me.
This is why I think that KT88 + KT77 and KT150 + KT66 have to be also very good and more neutral combinations. I have to try these, and also a quad of KT66.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I will do several combinations, I will even try KT150 as powers driven by KT66 which has to be interesting. But I want to spend some time with the current one, and in this way burn in the KT77 which have only around 25 hours now.
> Another interesting thing is that I won yesterday an auction on Ebay for a pair of GE 6550A which are direct replacement for KT88. So I will try some NOS 6550A soon as powers and inform.


Ah, interesting...6550  is essentially a KT88 variant, same specifications and same adapters will work?


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Ah, interesting...6550  is essentially a KT88 variant, same specifications and same adapters will work?



As far as I know 6550 is a direct replacement for KT88, so I expect that yes. I will double check the datasheets. 6550 is the american answer to KT88 like 7581 was for KT66.


----------



## Scutey

barontan2418 said:


> So many combinations, I've settled on KT88 quad in Elise and reverted back to stock (for now) on Euforia 2x 5998 clear tops driven by RCA 231 grey glass a long time favourite of mine.


Indeed, the numbers of options/combinations available on the Elise/Euforia, must be huge, enough to keep us all happy for some time!. Btw the KT66 I mentioned was the old stock, either clear or grey glass.


----------



## hypnos1 (Jan 22, 2020)

Scutey said:


> Indeed, the numbers of options/combinations available on the Elise/Euforia, must be huge, enough to keep us all happy for some time!. Btw the KT66 I mentioned was the old stock, either clear or grey glass.



Indeed S...the originals are undoubtedly always (pretty well!) the best lol . My GEC TT21s (basically the KT88 with top anode...but usually regarded as even better) are certainly a good bit ahead of the reissue Gold Lion KT88s. It's such a shame there's hordes out there with eagle eyes for them...with prices to match!  Hence the incredible availability of superior *NOS *GU50s at such a ludicrously cheap price!! ...CJ

ps. For any Elise owners who may be interested and haven't followed my experiments with the GU50, more info on this amazing tube over at the Euforia thread...


----------



## connieflyer

Hi OctavianH I just measured the KT88's at 58 C and KT77 at 50 C and the transformer at 25C on my Euforia.  Temps are fine.


----------



## Scutey

hypnos1 said:


> Indeed S...the originals are undoubtedly always (pretty well!) the best lol . My GEC TT21s (basically the KT88 with top anode...but usually regarded as even better) are certainly a good bit ahead of the reissue Gold Lion KT88s. It's such a shame there's hordes out there with eagle eyes for them...with prices to match!  Hence the incredible availability of superior *NOS *GU50s at such a ludicrously cheap price!! ...CJ
> 
> ps. For any Elise owners who may be interested and haven't followed my experiments with the GU50, more info on this amazing tube over at the Euforia thread...


It is indeed a shame CJ, there's so many on the hunt for them, and at the prices they're going for I will probably never get any, however!, I have just taken delivery of a pair of you're highly recommended NOS GU 50s .


----------



## OctavianH (Jan 23, 2020)

Indeed, the KT88 sing with these KT77. A very good combo, better for me than 4 x KT88 or KT88 -> KT66.







However, the NOS KT66 -> KT77 is, at least for me, better in terms of detail retrieval, clarity and the thing some call "holographic" imaging. I was never good at words (I'm an engineer after all, not a poet) and I always prefer to avoid complex descriptions, but this is what I felt the new production tubes are missing compared to NOS.

Anyway the sound is much above my expectations, and I am sure it will improve over time. Good find!

*Later edit:* In the last days my desk started to look like this:






And I was able to try also the "steroids" combo of KT150 -> KT66:






I have to say only one think about this last one: I had 3 coffee today but I feel I am slower than what is happening here. This is by far the most energetic combo I ever heard on Elise. I hope it will not start to run in the room so I will have to catch it.


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> Indeed, the KT88 sing with these KT77. A very good combo, better for me than 4 x KT88 or KT88 -> KT66.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Awesome collection in progress there OH...looks like the addiction bug could well be making itself at home lol!! ...(join the rest of us! )...CJ


----------



## OctavianH

I have to admit that things got a little bit out of control when I discovered KT66. I really like it. By the way, I tried also the 4 x KT66 and for me they were not as good as KT66+KT77.






And this leads me to one of the worst fears of my wallet: the fact that this tube exists:


----------



## hypnos1

Scutey said:


> It is indeed a shame CJ, there's so many on the hunt for them, and at the prices they're going for I will probably never get any, however!, I have just taken delivery of a pair of you're highly recommended NOS GU 50s .



Well done S...all we need now is for adapters to come on line! ...(let's hope that coronavirus doesn't impede things any further lol!! )...

Hope to be making a video tomorrow showing how easy it is to set up barontan's 12V heater power supply, and while I'm at it will show how to remove that metal top cover of the GU50. Then all you'll need is _another_ pair and a dual 6SN7/6AS7G adapter, which I'll check for sizing once Mrsx is back from New Year hols ...(unless @connieflyer 
can find one of his old ones lol ).


----------



## connieflyer

I checked around in all the usual places and the only dual adapter that I could find was for the 6bl7 to 6sn7.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> I checked around in all the usual places and the only dual adapter that I could find was for the 6bl7 to 6sn7.



Hi cf...hmmm...they both have the same pinout lol! ...but does the adapter have swivel function?...


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I have to admit that things got a little bit out of control when I discovered KT66. I really like it. By the way, I tried also the 4 x KT66 and for me they were not as good as KT66+KT77.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I can hear your wallet crying from here Octavian!.


hypnos1 said:


> Well done S...all we need now is for adapters to come on line! ...(let's hope that coronavirus doesn't impede things any further lol!! )...
> 
> Hope to be making a video tomorrow showing how easy it is to set up barontan's 12V heater power supply, and while I'm at it will show how to remove that metal top cover of the GU50. Then all you'll need is _another_ pair and a dual 6SN7/6AS7G adapter, which I'll check for sizing once Mrsx is back from New Year hols ...(unless @connieflyer
> can find one of his old ones lol ).


Will be keeping my eyes peeled for you're vid CJ .


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Well done S...all we need now is for adapters to come on line! ...(let's hope that coronavirus doesn't impede things any further lol!! )...
> 
> Hope to be making a video tomorrow showing how easy it is to set up barontan's 12V heater power supply, and while I'm at it will show how to remove that metal top cover of the GU50. Then all you'll need is _another_ pair and a dual 6SN7/6AS7G adapter, which I'll check for sizing once Mrsx is back from New Year hols ...(unless @connieflyer
> can find one of his old ones lol ).


Hi h1,
I have two dual adapters from Mrs Xuling that take 2x6SN7 to 6AS7. The dimensions are 85x35mm. The spacing between the centers of the guide pins is 50mm.
Since I have available 12V to the driver socket in my amp, do you think that Mrs Xuling could make a GU50 adapter without the wires for external power?


----------



## connieflyer

CJ, the 6bl7 adapter does not swivel, this one is clear plastic top. Two KT88's will fit but real close.


----------



## connieflyer

Cj, measured the 6bl7 to 6as7 adapter they are 3.5mm by 8.5 mm.


----------



## mordy (Jan 24, 2020)

What is the size of the GU50 compared to the KT88?
The 6BL7 to 6AS7 adapter is for octal dual triodes. If individual adapters are made for triodes that fit into the above adapter, are the adapters going to be right and left, or it doesn't matter?


----------



## OctavianH

Just a small remark for those who will try the NOS KT66 on Elise. Not all tubes sound the same. I was lucky enough to buy 2 matched pairs at very good prices and I was able to compare some MOV grey glass KT66 to some GEC clean glass KT66. Both are incredible, at least for me, but they do not sound exactly the same. To make some comparison, we can say that the grey glass vs clean glass can be the Tung Sol 5998 vs GEC 6AS7G. The grey glass is warmer, slightly less detail but a more tubey sound with some special flavour I cannot describe, very nice but somehow a little bit veiled. The GEC KT66 is cleaner, more detailed and polite. I like both incredible much, but I can differentiate them by blind testing, so I wanted to inform that not all NOS KT66 sound the same.






The KT66 was a game changer for me, the tube which made the electrical guitar sound right on a tube amp, after years of searching. If you love heavy metal, go for KT66, if you love classical or jazz, go for KT88. If you love heavy metal and like to have the most detailed and clean combo, go for NOS GEC KT66 + GE 7581A. My ears are impressed.
If you want to make your wallet happy, go for new production of these, price is 20% and the sound is 50% there... you know what you like or want.
In my case, GEC KT66 goes perfect for softer rock, progressive or acoustic parts, and the MOV KT66 adds some weight for heavier riffing like for example Annihilator. And when weight is not enough, and you want more, just change the drivers to KT77. 

And in the end, the disclaimer: all I've described happens in my brain, on my ears, listening to my Beyerdynamic T1 and Chord Qutest, using my DH Labs Air Matrix interconnects. I just hope this helps someone who wants to try these types of tubes on Elise and prefers the same musical genres as me.


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## barontan2418 (Jan 24, 2020)

mordy said:


> What is the size of the GU50 compared to the KT88?
> The 6BL7 to 6AS7 adapter is for octal dual triodes. If individual adapters are made for triodes that fit into the above adapter, are the adapters going to be right and left, or it doesn't matter?



Just to give you an idea.


----------



## mordy

barontan2418 said:


> Just to give you an idea.


Thanks - hard to tell, but it looks a little shorter and thinner.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> What is the size of the GU50 compared to the KT88?
> The 6BL7 to 6AS7 adapter is for octal dual triodes. If individual adapters are made for triodes that fit into the above adapter, are the adapters going to be right and left, or it doesn't matter?



Hi m...thanks for the info on your dual adapters...and to you too @connieflyer . Your test of 2x KT88s together on such an adapter proves that a KT88 (or similar) will be able to sit next to a GU50 no problem, the latter not being as wide as the KT88, mordy. And so it looks like there shouldn't be any trouble at all getting these double adapters...when things are back online lol!

And mordy, I've asked Mrsx to configure the pinout connections so that the GU50 in effect feeds _only_ triode #2 (ie pins 4, 5 and 6) of the 6SN7/6AS7G (for Elise and Euforia). Which of course is no problem in a double triode socket where they're linked _in parallel_, and one tube per channel. I'm sure Mrsx would configure it differently if asked, and similarly if you wanted to keep the heater pins in the base as opposed to an external wire, given an amp with 12V facility. But then comes the problem if you want to combine the GU50 with a 6.3V KT tube for example, and which is by far the best result lol ...decisions, decisions! 

....(Now to get that video put together!! ...)...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

OK @Scutey , and anyone else in Elise land interested in my latest tube tease - the GU50 - here's the video I promised regarding the external 12V heater power supply, along with a couple of other topics. Hope the 20+ mins length doesn't put you off entirely...I need to seriously review my time management lol!!  Anyway, I hope some of it at least might prove a little interesting/helpful...CHEERS for now, time for zzzzzzz...CJ


----------



## OctavianH

Today 4 strange tubes, straight bottle, appeared on my desk. Each have a different flavour and are produced in my small town.

I guess I am ready for some rolling. Let's see how these will influence the sound.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Today 4 strange tubes, straight bottle, appeared on my desk. Each have a different flavour and are produced in my small town.
> 
> I guess I am ready for some rolling. Let's see how these will influence the sound.


Beer rolling?


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## OctavianH (Jan 30, 2020)

Well, the beer rolling has to stop, more interesting things will happen soon.


> Progress is our most important product.








These were produced until the 90s and some claim they worth the try. The answer to this question will be known by me this evening.

*Later edit:*

I confirm that these work perfectly in our amps, with the same adapters used for KT66, KT77, KT88 and 7581A:


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Well, the beer rolling has to stop, more interesting things will happen soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice find, I look forward to your impressions @OctavianH!


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## OctavianH (Feb 1, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Nice find, I look forward to your impressions @OctavianH!



I will be reserved. I usually find these combos sounding different than what others might expect. As I was able to see, I prefer a mid-forward sound with more extension on high frequencies than others. This is why I found the KT88 driven by KT66 somehow dry and sterile. Of course, this was happening during listening sessions with rock music, when I switched to classical / vocal performances, which most probably the others prefer, the combo started to sound much better. This is why I am saying that my impressions are not so important for others since my expectations are different.

Yesterday I tried the GE 6550A with GE 7581A and then with GEC KT66.






For me these GE 6550A are superior to the pairs of new production KT88 I own for the following reasons:
- bass goes deeper compared to KT88 which leads, most probably to my next reason below
- I do not have that feeling of dyness or sterile, everything seems more natural
- high frequencies are going upper than on KT88 but here some might find them fatiguing
- mids are not as forward as on KT66 but still more forward than on KT88
- detail retrieval is better (valid for all NOS compared to new production I ever heard)

I do not own any NOS KT88 so I have no idea how big are the differences between new production and old production.

Anyway, being quite happy about these I started to read and found some very interesting resources, which I will share with you:

Some stuff related to GE 6550A history:
http://www.timeelect.com/6550a-ex.htm

And other stuff related to a Fender amp :
http://timeelect.com/400-histy.htm

After some years of searching I learned that the best tubes to use while listening to electric guitar are the ones used in the electric guitar amps.
This sounds to me like "The best glass for a beer is the pint". No crap...


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## OctavianH (Feb 7, 2020)

Still on the KT realm. The KT66 driven by KT77 are magic.






And some music for them:


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> I will be reserved. I usually find these combos sounding different than what others might expect. As I was able to see, I prefer a mid-forward sound with more extension on high frequencies than others. This is why I found the KT88 driven by KT66 somehow dry and sterile. Of course, this was happening during listening sessions with rock music, when I switched to classical / vocal performances, which most probably the others prefer, the combo started to sound much better. This is why I am saying that my impressions are not so important for others since my expectations are different.
> 
> Yesterday I tried the GE 6550A with GE 7581A and then with GEC KT66.
> 
> ...



Interesting results re. the GE 6550A, OH...and yes, once again, would appear to suit certain types of music as opposed to being an all-rounder. But certainly one to look out for perhaps...if they can be found at a 'reasonable' price (some are going for lots o' $$$$$ unfortunately). But then, as you say, NOS tubes do generally outperform the reissues, despite some enthusiasts with other amps reporting they prefer KT reissues - particularly the Genalex Gold Lions and TS 7581A, to classic NOS!!... However, from my own experience with the GEC TT21 version of its KT88, it is indeed streets ahead of the reissues. Which I suppose is reflected in the horrendous prices of them both alas!  And so the moral of the tale must be : _keep an eagle eye out for NOS GECs that go under the radar_ (even if it does require a miracle lol! ).


----------



## connieflyer

Well, transformer came in, tinned the wires installed in amp, nice blue glow.  Still working on buzz but looks good.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> Well, transformer came in, tinned the wires installed in amp, nice blue glow.  Still working on buzz but looks good.



Yo, looks real good cf...those GU50s definitely benefit (appearance wise) from the blue LEDs lol .

And yes again - that buzz/hum from the (non-linear supply) 12V DC power block is always a pain, but hopefully you'll be able to kill it as easily as we can here in the UK with our 240V mains. And if not as lucky as @barontan2418 - simply connecting an earthing wire from the 12V DC out back to its plug/socket from the mains cable input (as per my video) - then hopefully connecting it to another mains Earth point or the outer, neg part of the amp's RCA pre-out will bring the cure......CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## barontan2418

hypnos1 said:


> Yo, looks real good cf...those GU50s definitely benefit (appearance wise) from the blue LEDs lol .
> 
> And yes again - that buzz/hum from the (non-linear supply) 12V DC power block is always a pain, but hopefully you'll be able to kill it as easily as we can here in the UK with our 240V mains. And if not as lucky as @barontan2418 - simply connecting an earthing wire from the 12V DC out back to its plug/socket from the mains cable input (as per my video) - then hopefully connecting it to another mains Earth point or the outer, neg part of the amp's RCA pre-out will bring the cure......CHEERS!...CJ



Not quite the full set yet but getting there.


----------



## hypnos1

barontan2418 said:


> Not quite the full set yet but getting there.



Lookin' good too bt...sorry I didn't get those blue LEDs in the first pair, but they do look cool in the front at least lol .

But what's really important of course is how they will be sounding...and as already mentioned, you'll need to be patient for them all to start reaching their true potential...I found them taking longer than the KTs even! And then I look forward to how you find them performing in Euforia, compared to Elise...should be very interesting lol  And _then_, the duo combo with KT88 powers...assuming China doesn't disintegrate with their darned virus (but not much likelihood of that, regardless lol!!). Just hope the situation doesn't delay things any further beyond the 15th however .

Whatever...HAPPY LISTENING!...CJ


----------



## SHIMACM

Ola pessoal! Estou pensando seriamente em comprar Elise. Vou viajar para a Europa em junho e pretendo voltar para lá com ela. . No entanto, tenho pesquisado muito e ainda tenho dúvidas entre Elise e Woo WA2. Elise teve um aumento considerável no preço, hoje custando 1300 Euros. O Woo WA2 ficará por muito tempo ao mesmo preço de US $ 1.190. Então, que melhorias Elise passou em relação aos modelos anteriores que justificam o preço atual? E alguém já teve a oportunidade de comparar Elise (modelo 2019) com o atual Woo WA2? Eu aprecio quaisquer dois centavos recebidos.


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## connieflyer (Feb 9, 2020)

This is with the Feliks Audio Euforia amplifier
Well, all is well with the GU 50's and adapters, the hum is gone. I opened up the chasis and soldered a wire directly to the negative buss and brought it out through the plate. Works great now, no hum, buzz, just dead silence without a signal applied. Only have about ten hours on them now, but already sounding very good. Better in some aspects than my go to KT77-KT88, but needs more burn in as CJ says.  My expectation is that from what I am hearing should surpass my favorite tube combos.  Ordered another pair this morning to have for backup, at this price why not. Less than twenty dollars shipped. For burn in, I am not using dual power setup, just the four Gu 50's,  I want to hear the improvements as time marches on, so I know that in fact it is this tube making the quad power combo great. Hmmmm, CJ, what do you think about two quad of Gu 50?  Driver and Power slots doubled. The transformer I bought is 10 amps so should have enough power for  heaters and led's of course. Or at least quad power Gu 50's. Would help raise volume a bit.


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## barontan2418 (Feb 15, 2020)

connieflyer said:


> This is with the Feliks Audio Euforia amplifier
> Well, all is well with the GU 50's and adapters, the hum is gone. I opened up the chasis and soldered a wire directly to the negative buss and brought it out through the plate. Works great now, no hum, buzz, just dead silence without a signal applied. Only have about ten hours on them now, but already sounding very good. Better in some aspects than my go to KT77-KT88, but needs more burn in as CJ says.  My expectation is that from what I am hearing should surpass my favorite tube combos.  Ordered another pair this morning to have for backup, at this price why not. Less than twenty dollars shipped. For burn in, I am not using dual power setup, just the four Gu 50's,  I want to hear the improvements as time marches on, so I know that in fact it is this tube making the quad power combo great. Hmmmm, CJ, what do you think about two quad of Gu 50?  Driver and Power slots doubled. The transformer I bought is 10 amps so should have enough power for  heaters and led's of course. Or at least quad power Gu 50's. Would help raise volume a bit.


I'm running 2 x 50's in driver position and likewise in power position on Elise and have about 20 hours on all four tubes. Too soon for any meaningful evaluation but these tubes seem to be showing promise of far better things to come. Looking forward to 100+ hours. In the meantime I've been reading through old posts and trying favoured combinations of EL tubes on Euforia. Loving EL12N and EL12 but not quite as much as EL39 being driven by old  RFT EL11's, a combination which is an all time favourite of mine. Replacing EL39 with Tung sol 5998 also produces a beautiful combo.


----------



## hypnos1

connieflyer said:


> This is with the Feliks Audio Euforia amplifier
> Well, all is well with the GU 50's and adapters, the hum is gone. I opened up the chasis and soldered a wire directly to the negative buss and brought it out through the plate. Works great now, no hum, buzz, just dead silence without a signal applied. Only have about ten hours on them now, but already sounding very good. Better in some aspects than my go to KT77-KT88, but needs more burn in as CJ says.  My expectation is that from what I am hearing should surpass my favorite tube combos.  Ordered another pair this morning to have for backup, at this price why not. Less than twenty dollars shipped. For burn in, I am not using dual power setup, just the four Gu 50's,  I want to hear the improvements as time marches on, so I know that in fact it is this tube making the quad power combo great. Hmmmm, CJ, what do you think about two quad of Gu 50?  Driver and Power slots doubled. The transformer I bought is 10 amps so should have enough power for  heaters and led's of course. Or at least quad power Gu 50's. Would help raise volume a bit.




Oooh cf...lookin' more gorgeous by the day lol!  

And well done on killing the 12V DC supply's hum/buzz... very professionally done, if I may say so (but most folks would probably have to use the alternative methods I've mentioned previously).

Re. a quad power setup, I personally found that mixing the GU50 with my own version of the KT88 - ie. the TT21 - brought even more to the table than the GU50 by itself, so I suggest trying that first (with your own 88 or other KT). And I doubt that doubling up on the drivers also would actually bring much benefit.

As for the quad powers however, overall improvements are not minor...even though they don't actually deliver much more _volume_ as such, but more masterful, effortless control/dynamics in power _*delivery*_....(certainly for my 32Ohm Empyreans, anyway lol).

ps. If you're liking them this much with just 10 hrs on the tubes, you're in for a really special treat in the days/weeks to come. It wasn't until 40+hrs that voice positioning settled to my own satisfaction, and I became hopelessly hooked. And by the time everything else reached near peak (treble being the last to do so), I was totally lost!...So, ENJOY!...CJ


----------



## hypnos1

barontan2418 said:


> I'm running 2 x 50's in driver position and likewise in power position on Elise and have about 20 hours on all four tubes. Too soon for any meaningful evaluation but these tubes seem to be showing promise of far better things to come. Looking forward to 100+ hours. In the meantime I've been reading through old posts and trying flavoured combinations of EL tubes on Euforia. Loving EL12N and EL12 but not quite as much as EL39 being driven by old  RFT EL11's which is an all time favourite of mine. Replacing EL39 with Tung sol 5998 also produces a beautiful combo.



Hi bt...be assured that promise will be met to the full lol!...(especially in Euforia! )...CHEERS!


----------



## OctavianH

While reading with a lot of pleasure about the GU50 and its followers, I have returned here for a while already to the "classic" KT66 + 7581A.







After spending some months on the KT realm this is for me the ultimate setup. The clear glass GEC KT66 (mine rebranded as Colomor) and the GE 7581A. It might not be a combo for everyone, but for me, this is the best I can have now. My Elise will be in a few days 2 years old, and thinking about these 2 last years, I can say that this combo and the Psvane CV181T2 + Tung Sol 5998 were game changers. But the journey was beautiful and I am sure it has a lot of steps ahead.


----------



## OctavianH

Since we have today 50 years since the biggest band in the world released their first and self-titled album, I present you mr. Marko Hietala, who released an incredible solo album recently, but he also made a great live cover here:



And I have to admit he adds a lot of personal touches to the original song.

Happy Birthday "Black Sabbath"!


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Since we have today 50 years since the biggest band in the world released their first and self-titled album, I present you mr. Marko Hietala, who released an incredible solo album recently, but he also made a great live cover here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well done, Octavian, for pointing this out, a timeless classic, revered amongst the rock and metal fraternity but sadly, I suspect, much less well known than it should be to everyone else, imo, this album is at least as influential as Sgt Pepper or Pet Sounds. Btw this is a very good cover by Marko Hietala, thanks for sharing! .


----------



## LoryWiv

Appreciating the comments about KT's and GU50 here and on Euforia thread, but as @OctavianH notes sometimes it's fun to rock it old school. The 1950's NOS RCA 6AS7G powers driven by TS 6SN7GTB's may not be the last word in detail retrieval, but has tubey goodness to warm the soul and except for a bit rolled off treble, not really lacking for much across the spectrum. A nice change this evening.


----------



## OctavianH

I reached here the point where tube rolling isn't a priority anymore. Now I am just rediscovering music and enjoying old tracks where I can hear more now and in a different way. This is the ultimate pleasure after the tube rolling, and its ultimate purpose. My Elise has 2 years now and it sounds better than ever.






Next step? I have no idea, I am in no hurry. For sure, I will not buy any other Feliks Audio amplifier since Elise is perfect for me and has the sound I always wanted. Nothing else from their portofolio makes me curious. I am not sure either if I will continue on the 6SN7 / 6AS7 road because for me the recently discovered KT tubes are better. So maybe a dedicated amplifier for them would be a nice addition, even if I do not plan to sell Elise or my existing tube collection. Well, maybe excepting the russian re-issues which are already replaced by NOS versions, but since their price is quite low, I do not have a real motivation to start looking for buyers...

The only amp I am really curious about is the Virtus-01 from WBA, KT66/88/120/150 driven by ECC88, but there are only a few remarks over the internet about it. So basicly almost no information. I reached the point of reading polish forums and translating with Google to obtain more information and even in this way I am not pleased about the amount of it.

Thinking about the last 2 years, and about Elise, I strongly consider it a good purchase, a product which still amazes me and has potential to re-invent itself when the community finds a new compatible tube family. More than this it was realiable, I had no problems with it and I think I have around 3000 hours of listening. It is true that it does not shine without expensive tubes, that it needs appropriate power noise filtering and a decent source but overall, it has a good price/value ratio. Being one of the new owners, I was able to travel quite fast on the tube rolling road  by jumpind directly to what others searched for years to find, and this is why I am really grateful to anyone here who contributed and helped me to take the right decisions. However, now I realize more than ever, that you can fully trust only your own ears. Nothing will be described and evaluated 100% as you would expect it to be. So experimentation is a very important part of this hobby.
Has Elise any downsides? Well, there are minor things which I would prefer to be different. For example the volume knob is almost non readable, but a white marker can make here wonders. And I have another thing I do not like about it and this is the fact that, at very low levels, it does not provide equal channel amplification. Since my DAC outputs 3V I rarely go beyond 10 PM and I always feel it sounds better at higher volume. Maybe it is Placebo. I can set my DAC to 1V or 2V but the sound changes and I feel lack of dynamism and clarity. And this was something many reported using the same DAC so in this case Elise is not the culprit. So here I would prefer a stepped attenuator. And yep, that ON/OFF button at the back is a pain, every time you have to stop it you need to look for it. I do hope they'll put one on the front. But these are, in the end, details, the pros are much more important to me. And the fact that we can roll so many tube types without problems is a big plus. Many would say: "OK, why you need so many tube types? In the end you stick for the best combo. So better to buy an amp with that one and that's it." But for me, listening to a musical genre still dwelling in the underground, where some bands do not have the proper money or recording conditions, the ability to compensate is important. So there is no best combo, just some better ones which sound good on mostly all the records you like. But there will be always that one which will need other tubes and you like it so much. That one which is produced like crap but still you will never forget it. So the theory of an "all around perfect tube amp with the best unique combo" fails for me. I prefer to have the option to change.
In these 2 years I've rolled here 6SN7, EL3N, EL12N, EL11, EL32, 7581A, KT66, KT77, KT88, KT150, 6550A, 5998, 7236, 6AS7, 6080, 6F8G, 6H13C, 6H8C, 6H12C, C3G, 5692, 7N7 and who knows what else will come.

So, Happy Birthday Elise. You are 48 years younger than Black Sabbath but still, quite important to me. And judging the feedback from the community over the last 5 years since you appeared, it seems you are taken quite seriously.


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## LoryWiv (Feb 18, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> I reached here the point where tube rolling isn't a priority anymore. Now I am just rediscovering music and enjoying old tracks where I can hear more now and in a different way. This is the ultimate pleasure after the tube rolling, and its ultimate purpose. My Elise has 2 years now and it sounds better than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post and reflection, @OctavianH! I have only had my Elise 7 1/2 months but it's been such a nice journey. I'm still tube rolling but the interesting thing is that with Elise, none  of the combinations sounds bad, just different flavors. A bit of a revelation for me the other night was that in addition to tube rolling, a simple pad roll from the stock Auteur pads on my ZMF cans to the alternate Eikon pair that shipped with them greatly enhanced the bass with minimal loss of detail, stage and mid / high frequencies. Since then, I'm revisiting some tube combinations to see how they synergize with the pad rolled headphones, and combinations that were previously too bright or bass light now sound excellent. Currently running a GL KT88 quad with the ZMF cans and enjoying it greatly.

All that goes to support your point that Elise is a special amp. Like you I've never had one glitch with it's reliability, and and it is a great partner in my quest for the best listening experience. I also take care to pause often and just enjoy the music, head back and eyes closed. Listening while occupied with other tasks is pleasant, but those "listening only" moments are always rejuvenating. Enjoy!


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> I reached here the point where tube rolling isn't a priority anymore. Now I am just rediscovering music and enjoying old tracks where I can hear more now and in a different way. This is the ultimate pleasure after the tube rolling, and its ultimate purpose. My Elise has 2 years now and it sounds better than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





OctavianH said:


> I reached here the point where tube rolling isn't a priority anymore. Now I am just rediscovering music and enjoying old tracks where I can hear more now and in a different way. This is the ultimate pleasure after the tube rolling, and its ultimate purpose. My Elise has 2 years now and it sounds better than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know what you mean OctavianH, I followed you lead on the above tube combination. Tubes still burning in but still sounds fantastic. As for further tube rolling I've still got a way to go with the Russian GU50's then I will probably be hanging up my tube rolling boots also. Then all that's left is getting an extension built to accommodate all the tubes I've amassed.


OctavianH said:


> I reached here the point where tube rolling isn't a priority anymore. Now I am just rediscovering music and enjoying old tracks where I can hear more now and in a different way. This is the ultimate pleasure after the tube rolling, and its ultimate purpose. My Elise has 2 years now and it sounds better than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## OctavianH

barontan2418 said:


> I know what you mean OctavianH, I followed you lead on the above tube combination. Tubes still burning in but still sounds fantastic. As for further tube rolling I've still got a way to go with the Russian GU50's then I will probably be hanging up my tube rolling boots also. Then all that's left is getting an extension built to accommodate all the tubes I've amassed.



Are you trying exactly the same combo as I have in the picture? The GEC KT66 clear glass + GE 7581A?


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> Are you trying exactly the same combo as I have in the picture? The GEC KT66 clear glass + GE 7581A?


Not quite. GEC grey glass and GE 7581A. As the moment fitted in Euforia. All are NOS so things can only get better hopefully. Been listening to Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa whilst running tubes in and really enjoying the journey
This combo now sits with my TS5998 - EL11 and EL39 - EL11 on my wall of fame, all have something to give to the music.


----------



## Scutey

barontan2418 said:


> Not quite. GEC grey glass and GE 7581A. As the moment fitted in Euforia. All are NOS so things can only get better hopefully. Been listening to Beth Hart and Joe Bonamassa whilst running tubes in and really enjoying the journey
> This combo now sits with my TS5998 - EL11 and EL39 - EL11 on my wall of fame, all have something to give to the music.


Those GEC grey glass are very nice tubes, I have a pair along with the clear glass version, the grey glass version is noticeably warmer than the clear glass. I have tried both versions with several other tubes, KT77/88/120/150, but I've found the synergy with the 7581A is the best of all.


----------



## OctavianH

I found exactly the same, grey glass warmer than the clean glass, with slightly less detail but a more euphonic sound somehow. However, Euforia being more neutral than Elise might accomodate these better. So I guess the best choices would be grey glass on Euforia and clean glass on Elise.


----------



## OctavianH

Still dwelling on the KT66 / 7581A realm.






The latest solo album of the Saxon front man sounds incredible on Elise:


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## SupperTime

Which Feliz amp is best paired with the stellia?


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## OctavianH

Judgement time. Anathema.


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## OctavianH

Friday evening with Ozzy Osbourne. Listening to the latest album.


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## barontan2418

Looks like Elise has reached her final tube roll. This set-up is sounding so good and it's just the first day. Many thanks to H1 for his adapter building skills and ever helpful advice. GU50's still well below 100hrs run time so things could get even better. Will eventually transfer this tube set-up to Euforia and post some impressions.


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## hypnos1 (Mar 11, 2020)

barontan2418 said:


> Looks like Elise has reached her final tube roll. This set-up is sounding so good and it's just the first day. Many thanks to H1 for his adapter building skills and ever helpful advice. GU50's still well below 100hrs run time so things could get even better. Will eventually transfer this tube set-up to Euforia and post some impressions.



PHEW! bt...thank goodness those angled adapters/cradles fitted in OK, given the enormous diameter of the GU50 sockets lol! And those lovely partnering Osram KT66s of yours do make the GU50s look a bit more interesting...(although these Russians are looking nicer in my eyes by the day, given their glorious sound, and especially when dualed with a KT).

And yes, glad to hear you're loving this setup already...things can indeed only get even better yet with more time on the tubes _and_ adapter wires - not to mention when you transfer to Euforia (which should prove very interesting IMHO )....HAPPY LISTENING...CJ

ps. Have yet to investigate why the reissue GL KT88 seems not to partner well when dualed with the GU50 (very strange!), and will also check that the GL KT66 behaves as well as your original 66s...so stay tuned folks...


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## hypnos1

SupperTime said:


> Which Feliz amp is best paired with the stellia?



Hi ST...sorry for the late reply. I don't think we've ever had a comparison of the 2 amps using the Stellia, but member teknorob was mightily impressed with his Euforia/Stellia combo. And general concensus is that Elise is very good...but Euforia is certainly a step or 2 up. The upgrades I asked F-A to make over Elise are not insubstantial after all lol! ...Good luck!


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## OctavianH

In the last days, due to the travel restrictions and current situation in Europe related to COVID-19, I had more time for Elise. During my listening session I read a lot about Chord M-Scaler, which is my next logical step since my Qutest is quite pleasing me and it is compatible with this upsampler. Anyway, in the meantime I played a little bit with some software upsamplers for Foobar, like for example SRC resampler:






This plugin is able to upsample up to 384Khz and that can be observed also on the optical frequency indicator of the Qutest which turned purple for a normal FLAC file of 44.1KHz:






Has anyone played with this kind of software upsamplers? Soundwise I head no major difference, only that it adds some "edge" to the sound, which sometimes sounds as harshness, depending on the recording. I am still playing with this, but if anyone has more experience, please share.


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## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> In the last days, due to the travel restrictions and current situation in Europe related to COVID-19, I had more time for Elise. During my listening session I read a lot about Chord M-Scaler, which is my next logical step since my Qutest is quite pleasing me and it is compatible with this upsampler. Anyway, in the meantime I played a little bit with some software upsamplers for Foobar, like for example SRC resampler:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi OH.

Well, for what it's worth I myself tried Audacity's upsampling function and although at first it _seemed_ to bring some kind of improvement, on much closer scrutiny it actually impacts negatively the overall sound IMHO. I suspect a lot will depend on the quality of the rest of one's system as to the (noticeable) degree of this degradation. I also suspect that only hyper-expensive equipment can ever hope to improve on the original recording quality, and even then only if _*re*_upsampling something that had been previously _*down*_sampled lol!


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## OctavianH (Mar 14, 2020)

I have the same feeling as you @hypnos1 but I said "why not to try it" since this software plugin was free. In the past I tried also the trial version of JPLAY but on my PC it did not work at all, hard to say why. However, all reviews and forums speak about 20-30% of sound quality improvement when using the hardware upsampler Chord M-Scaler. Hard to say what that toy is doing, but there are guys which compared it with TT2, Dave as standalone and said it brings some improvement. Strange are the ways of the upsampling.


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## hypnos1 (Mar 14, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> I have the same feeling as you @hypnos1 but I said "why not to try it" since this software plugin was free. In the past I tried also the trial version of JPLAY but on my PC it did not work at all, hard to say why. However, all reviews and forums speak about 20-30% of sound quality improvement when using the hardware upsampler Chord M-Scaler. Hard to say what that toy is doing, but there are guys which compared it with TT2, Dave as standalone and said it brings some improvement. Strange are the ways of the upsampling.



Actually OH, I personally am of the opinion that something like the M-Scaler is simply(?!!) doing a better job of reproducing the recording's _native_ quality, given that most playback equipment is compromised in some way in its sound reproduction, from source thru whatever DAC is used. I myself have found further hints of this principle in the way my Naim UnitiCore server/player's own copy of a CD to its internal SSD drive, thence to Hugo2 DAC outperforms the excellent Audiolab 8200 CD's same signal to H2 as well as its direct out to Euforia. Similarly when the Naim plays back the same CD transferred to it via a digital copy made elsewhere. My contention is that the M-Scaler is therefore doing a similar thing with whatever it's being fed...no more no less . But I could just be wrong!


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## OctavianH

Well, the "theory" is here:
https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/The-theory-behind-M-Scaler-technology.pdf

But at the moment I am too lazy to follow it. Days will come and I will know more. Anyway, sound quality is for me something personal, so I do not care about equations and mathematics, as long as it sounds good to me. It might be selfish but that's it.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> In the last days, due to the travel restrictions and current situation in Europe related to COVID-19, I had more time for Elise. During my listening session I read a lot about Chord M-Scaler, which is my next logical step since my Qutest is quite pleasing me and it is compatible with this upsampler. Anyway, in the meantime I played a little bit with some software upsamplers for Foobar, like for example SRC resampler:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I moved from FooBar2000 to Signalyst HQ Player Desktop and have never looked back. The latter does PCM upsampling and / or conversion to DSD, with numerous filter and modulator options. There is a very active discussion of this software at audiophilestyle.com, and the developer is on the forum almost every day to answer questions. It is pricey, and the interface takes some getting used to, but IMO is extremely well-implemented and versatile. There is a trial version you can assess before you buy to see if it is for you.


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## OctavianH (Mar 15, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> I moved from FooBar2000 to Signalyst HQ Player Desktop and have never looked back. The latter does PCM upsampling and / or conversion to DSD, with numerous filter and modulator options. There is a very active discussion of this software at audiophilestyle.com, and the developer is on the forum almost every day to answer questions. It is pricey, and the interface takes some getting used to, but IMO is extremely well-implemented and versatile. There is a trial version you can assess before you buy to see if it is for you.



AudiophileStyle is a very useful resource and I read it quite often. I remember that I tried this Signalyst software in the past and the interface was so unintuitive that I hated it. More than this it crashed instantly with my quite big (several thousands) FLAC album collection. If you say it makes such a big difference I might try it again.

Later Edit:
Today I quite enjoyed the SRC Resampler, because it tightens somehow the sound. For some recordings it is a benefit, for others not. I will continue to test it.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I remember that I tried this Signalyst software in the past and the interface was so unintuitive that I hated it. More than this it crashed instantly with my quite big (several thousands) FLAC album collection. If you say it makes such a big difference I might try it again.


There have been numerous improvements and updates in the past year or so and I don't ever experience crashes Depending on the upsampling choices it can be resource intensive on your CPU, but if you have an NVidia card it takes good advantage of CUDA to offload processing power. I have come to quite love this software, but of course YMMV.


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## Preachy1

Tube question for the pros:  one (or both?) of my power tubes is/are causing a lot of noise.  i have a new pair on order, but as we are aware, all deliveries from overseas are experiencing delays.  My question is, can I use a spare pair of driver tubes in place of power tubes until the new ones arrive, or will I risk damage the unit?

sorry if this appears totally uneducated, that but that's what it is!  

TIA


----------



## OctavianH

Preachy1 said:


> My question is, can I use a spare pair of driver tubes in place of power tubes until the new ones arrive, or will I risk damage the unit?



I doubt it is a good idea to put a stock driver instead of one of the power tubes. But I will let also others answer, I never tried that.

So, if not now, when it is a good time to listen to the complete Dio discography? Well, in the last days I managed to do this twice.


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## OctavianH (Apr 3, 2020)

I bought recently an entry level mirrorless at a good price. Nothing fancy but I hope better than my S7 phone, which after I flashed LineageOS on it, is not able to make decent pictures anymore (Google Camera does not properly use Samsung sensors). The good part is that I have double battery life with android 10, dark mode and less Samsung stuff on it.

So, let's see, maybe I learn something about making photos on a camera in the meantime.






PS. The camera is an Olympus E-PL8 with some 14-42mm lens.


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## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> I bought recently an entry level mirrorless at a good price. Nothing fancy but I hope better than my S7 phone, which after I flashed LineageOS on it, is not able to make decent pictures anymore (Google Camera does not properly use Samsung sensors). The good part is that I have double battery life with android 10, dark mode and less Samsung stuff on it.
> 
> So, let's see, maybe I learn something about making photos on a camera in the meantime.
> 
> ...


Hello OctavianH
Bit of a lone voice on the Elise thread at the moment. Hope all is good with you. Thought I'd just pop in and say hello. I guess your not going down the GU50 route? Your GEC KT66's along with GE7581's are hitting the mark. I've reached the end of my journey with Euforia and the GU50 + GEC 66's set-up it's good enough for my needs. Elise has plenty of good tubes to allow me to fit in a little tube rolling now and again. Hope a few of the guests following this thread become more active and keep it going. Be safe.


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## OctavianH

Yes, it seems I am the only one here. Well, I will consider this a personal blog. Anyway. I am not taking the GU50 route, I do not want to start with external power supplies and other power filtering for them. I guess I am also at the end of the tube rolling here. KT66 + 7581A are perfect for me.


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## LoryWiv (Apr 4, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> Yes, it seems I am the only one here. Well, I will consider this a personal blog. Anyway. I am not taking the GU50 route, I do not want to start with external power supplies and other power filtering for them. I guess I am also at the end of the tube rolling here. KT66 + 7581A are perfect for me.


@OctavianH please know I read and enjoy your posts. Like you, I've stayed with one tube set recently, a quad of Genalex GL KT88's, so haven't had much new to report or contribute. I'm just enjoying the music as a balm for challenging times!

Stay safe and well!


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## OctavianH

I am not contributing as well for almost 6 months since my tube rolling activities ended. I just put a picture from time to time for fun. In the meantime I read a lot about other equipments and try to see what else can be worth trying in the future.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I bought recently an entry level mirrorless at a good price. Nothing fancy but I hope better than my S7 phone, which after I flashed LineageOS on it, is not able to make decent pictures anymore (Google Camera does not properly use Samsung sensors). The good part is that I have double battery life with android 10, dark mode and less Samsung stuff on it.
> 
> So, let's see, maybe I learn something about making photos on a camera in the meantime.
> 
> ...


Great pic with you're new phone, that bear looks rather tasty too!, in these times a great way to pass the time, good tunes and good bear! .
Congrats also to you, Octavian for keeping the Elise thread going, I must admit I have been slacking a bit on Head-Fi recently, l, like most of us seem to have done recently and settle on one set of tubes, mine for a while have been balloon coated EL38 and EL11, sounds fab on Elise.


----------



## LoryWiv

Yes, by all means let's keep this thread alive! @Scutey, @OctavianH and others who may have experience with linear power conditioners, I am considering adding a Furman Elite-15 PF i in my chain. They have come down in price a bit and I would use the Amp. outlet for my dear friend Elise of course, and the other AV-type outlets (which I assume are for digital components) for a Matrix DAC, Singxer SU-1 and possibly my PC monitor. 

2 questions:

1. Will the Furman's maximum capacity of 15 amps be adequate for these components? I know Elise tops out at around 6.4A but couldn't find info. on the other components current draw needs.
2. What have others experienced in sonic benefit from adding a linear power condition behind the Elise? I like the concept of high quality surge protection, clean power and the "Power Factor" technology makes sense to allow transient boosts in current, but technicalities and user experience are two different things, so I'd love to hear from others.

Thanks, and stay safe!


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## OctavianH (Apr 8, 2020)

Yes, 16A is more than enough for what you need. As far as I know the fuse in Elise is 1.6A @ 250V. I am not sure about the one in the american 120V version but anyway, 16A are more than enough for you. And I know there are other users here using that Furman, so it works fine. The amperage which the amp draws from the power plug is not the same as the sum of the tubes, even if I made this mistake in the past. There are different voltages and some transformers in between. I am not an expert of the circuitry but I think the fuse parameters should give a clear idea about max. current it can draw.
Soundwise, for me the benefit was audible, and I think this post will help you:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-elise-impressions-thread-–-a-new-start-please-read-first-post-for-summary.813488/page-728#post-14742673


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## LoryWiv

Thanks, @OctavianH that is very helpful indeed. Are you still using the Furman unit, and did you decide to leave it switched on at all times?


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## OctavianH

Yes, it's been on for more than one year. I almost forgot about it. I use it for Elise and the CXC because for Qutest I have a linear power supply. You will see that improvements on the power filtering provide audible benefits. Keep us informed about what you find


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Yes, it's been on for more than one year. I almost forgot about it. I use it for Elise and the CXC because for Qutest I have a linear power supply. You will see that improvements on the power filtering provide audible benefits. Keep us informed about what you find


Will do, probably will go for it in the next few weeks barring some unforseen expense.


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## OctavianH

Some lights.


----------



## SteveZissou77

How do you guys think the Elise pairs with the Sony MDR-Z1R headphones + Chord Mojo DAC?

I listed to that combo in a local hifi shop and thought they sounded amazing, but I didn't try them with other Amps. Only other reference point I have are the HDV820 + HD820 which is priced similarly but my preferred music genre is a lot more rock and some modern electronic genres (James Blake, Burial ...).

Input is very welcome before I pull the trigger. Got a decent price for the set - actually the very same as the HDV820+HD820 combo currently on sale from Sennheiser


----------



## Scutey

Hi Steve, this is not really an easy question to answer, unfortunately there are too many variables, hearing, cables,rest of system etc, I also don't know anything about the MDR-Z1R either. What I can tell you is the Elise is an excellent amp, it does lean more towards warm/euphonic but, to a certain extent that depends on the tubes you use, and the choice is huge!, I use mine a lot for rock and metal as well and I find it handles these genres very well, btw I use a Beyer T1 2nd gen with my Elise and sometimes a ZMF Atticus which I guess might be closer to the Sony, which can sound very good on Elise, with the right, music/recordings. One thing it might be worth you going through this thread to see if it might help you come to a decision, the information on this thread is huge. Good lucking coming to your decision!.


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## LoryWiv (Apr 22, 2020)

Added a Furman Elite-15 PF i for mains power conditioning, connected my Elise, Matrix DAC and Singxer SU-1. I am absolutely stunned by the audible improvements: lower noise floor, seemingly more volume at lower potentiometer setting, frequencies well-extended extended but presented in context of an organic naturalness and ease. Mids sit forward but not aggressively so (5th row concert hall, not 1st). Instrument definition in the sound space is terrific and I appreciate that intangible sense that all sounds correct. To be sure, these were all characteristics of my chain prior and the overall signature has not fundamentally changed, just enhanced and integrated to perfection and layered cleanly. Perhaps some new toy syndrome but I don't think so. The Furman unit is definitely not a toy, it is solid and clearly purpose built. I am very impressed.


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## barontan2418

LoryWiv said:


> Furman Elite-15


----------



## LoryWiv

LoryWiv said:


> Added a Furman Elite-15 PF i for mains power conditioning, connected my Elise, Matrix DAC and Singxer SU-1. I am absolutely stunned by the audible improvements: lower noise floor, seemingly more volume at lower potentiometer setting, frequencies well-extended extended but presented in context of an organic naturalness and ease. Mids sit forward but not aggressively so (5th row concert hall, not 1st). Instrument definition in the sound space is terrific and I appreciate that intangible sense that all sounds correct. To be sure, these were all characteristics of my chain prior and the overall signature has not fundamentally changed, just enhanced and integrated to perfection and layered cleanly. Perhaps some new toy syndrome but I don't think so. The Furman unit is definitely not a toy, it is solid and clearly purpose built. I am very impressed.


Question for the cognizenti on power conditioning, dear @hypnos1 and others: Since installing the Furman as above, I question if I should remove the iFi iGalvanic 3.0, which is inline from my PC USB port to iDefender / iPower then out to iGalvanic 3.0 --> Singxer SU-1 --> Matrix X-Sabre Pro --> Elise. As the Furman provides clean power and the Singxer SU-1 does the re-clocking, is there any additional benefit to the iFikit or is it just overcomplicating the chain? My ears so far don't discern a major difference with or without the iFi kit but I wonder if I should follow the "simpler is better" rule?


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Head-fi family, it has been a long time. I am still listening to my Elise with Chord Mojo via Sennheiser HD800. Tubes EL3N and 5998s. What are the latest tubes taking you to the SQ heaven?  How is ISO going? Thanks


----------



## barontan2418 (May 5, 2020)

Lord Raven said:


> Hi Head-fi family, it has been a long time. I am still listening to my Elise with Chord Mojo via Sennheiser HD800. Tubes EL3N and 5998s. What are the latest tubes taking you to the SQ heaven?  How is ISO going? Thanks



Hello LR. Think I came along a wee while after you took a break. However your tube selection is certainly a good one although I found EL11's suited me better than the EL3N's. TS5998's are certainly up there with the best. Loads has happened over the past year or so tube wise with Clive (H1) leading the way. Tubes that are in vogue at the moment are mainly KT's 66,77 and 88,s with the latest addition being the Russian GU50 which a couple of us are rolling in various configurations. I'm sure one of the long standing members of the thread will reply to your post. Glad your still enjoying the Elise.


----------



## Scutey

Lord Raven said:


> Hi Head-fi family, it has been a long time. I am still listening to my Elise with Chord Mojo via Sennheiser HD800. Tubes EL3N and 5998s. What are the latest tubes taking you to the SQ heaven?  How is ISO going? Thanks


Hi LR, the combo I'm listening to at the moment is EL38 with the EL3N for drivers, it's a great sound, full bodied, deep full bass, yet still lively and detailed, as bt mentioned the EL11 goes very well with the 38 too, the KT's are a recent discovery, the KT88 is nice a power with the KT66/77, or 7581A as drivers, although the 66 as a power and the 7581A is nice too.


----------



## Lord Raven

barontan2418 said:


> Hello LR. Think I came along a wee while after you took a break. However your tube selection is certainly a good one although I found EL11's suited me better than the EL3N's. TS5998's are certainly up there with the best. Loads has happened over the past year or so tube wise with Clive (H1) leading the way. Tubes that are in vogue at the moment are mainly KT's 66,77 and 88,s with the latest addition being the Russian GU50 which a couple of us are rolling in various configurations. I'm sure one of the long standing members of the thread will reply to your post. Glad your still enjoying the Elise.


Hi barontan2418, wow that's a lot of discovery. Do you need an adapter for KT's? What would be the best combo for the Sennheiser HD800 piercing through my ear drums?  I am planning to mod it to take the edge off. I am loving it but at high volumes, it is like a razor. Need some help to get the tubes tame it down before I tear it apart. Thanks


----------



## Lord Raven

Scutey said:


> Hi LR, the combo I'm listening to at the moment is EL38 with the EL3N for drivers, it's a great sound, full bodied, deep full bass, yet still lively and detailed, as bt mentioned the EL11 goes very well with the 38 too, the KT's are a recent discovery, the KT88 is nice a power with the KT66/77, or 7581A as drivers, although the 66 as a power and the 7581A is nice too.


Hi Scutey, thanks for the quick rundown. I am listening to headphones in ISO before it was mostly on HiFi. I see I need some new tubes  I don't know how sourcing has been impacted by the virus. Let's see if some stock is available in the down under. Has there been another release of Elise?


----------



## Scutey

H LR, no problem!, there seems to be a reasonable amount of tubes for sale, especially on eBay, might be worth having a look, as for the KT tubes you will need an adpater, here's the link at the bottom. As far a I know there has been no new update of the Elise, I think the latest version is the 2018 version.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## Lord Raven

Scutey said:


> H LR, no problem!, there seems to be a reasonable amount of tubes for sale, especially on eBay, might be worth having a look, as for the KT tubes you will need an adpater, here's the link at the bottom. As far a I know there has been no new update of the Elise, I think the latest version is the 2018 version.
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Gold-6L6-7581-instead-6AS7-tube-converter-adapter-For-Elise-Euroria-amp/193142155772?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


Amazing, I am looking at some KT88 tubes on eBay and don't know which one to get. PSVANE is the one I saw on the Feliks website. My Elise is serial 13. I just want to know what is the best-found combo so far? I might be sounding too lazy here but trust me, I am coming out of hibernation of 2 years as I was moving countries


----------



## barontan2418

Lord Raven said:


> Amazing, I am looking at some KT88 tubes on eBay and don't know which one to get. PSVANE is the one I saw on the Feliks website. My Elise is serial 13. I just want to know what is the best-found combo so far? I might be sounding too lazy here but trust me, I am coming out of hibernation of 2 years as I was moving countries


Hi.LR. Most of us started off with Gold Lion KT tubes both 88's and 66's some also like KT77's as drivers. Gold Lion are reputed to be one of the best new tubes out there. They are very good. A couple of us have chosen to pick up GEC KT 66's and are driving them with GE 7581's. This is the combo I'm running on Elise at the moment. Tung sol make a 7581A which is a good option for driving the KT 66 and a less expensive option to the GE's. Will not go into the GU tubes just yet but they are well documented on the Euforia thread.


----------



## LoryWiv

barontan2418 said:


> Hi.LR. Most of us started off with Gold Lion KT tubes both 88's and 66's some also like KT77's as drivers. Gold Lion are reputed to be one of the best new tubes out there. They are very good. A couple of us have chosen to pick up GEC KT 66's and are driving them with GE 7581's. This is the combo I'm running on Elise at the moment. Tung sol make a 7581A which is a good option for driving the KT 66 and a less expensive option to the GE's. Will not go into the GU tubes just yet but they are well documented on the Euforia thread.


Hi @barontan2418. I'm considering picking up a pair of GEC KT66, brown base / clear glass. I've been running a quad of Genalex  GL KT88 up to this point, good clarity and detail retrieval, just seeking a tad more warmth. Wondering if you've tried to GEC KT66 in driver position and if so, how it differed from your experience with Genalex Gold Lions. The GEC's aren't cheap so trying to get a handle on what the differences are from Genalex new production before going for it. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## barontan2418

Hi LoryWiv.
As you might have seen in my previous post I'm using GEC KT66's as powers driven by GE7581A's a combination I'm really liking. OctavianH also finds this combo to his liking and indeed feels he's no need to look further. I found the GEC's ticked all the boxes for me but in the power position in conjunction with my Beyer T1, Good definition, placement, width and depth of sound stage and importantly to me, vocals both male and female became more intimate. To my mind the is little doubt that the GEC's are better overall than Gold Lion which themselves are very good. I've done so much tube rolling just lately both with Elise and Euforia I'm finding it hard to keep up with individual results. I will have tried GEC's with KT88's but the fact that I'm not still using that combination suggests it wasn't quite what I was looking for. Sorry I'm not being of much help, I doubt you'll regret getting the GEC's just that you may have to try a few different combinations, or indeed you might just be impressed with them driving KT88's.


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## OctavianH

Yes, I use for almost 4 months the GEC KT66 clear glass with GE 7581A as drivers and have no desire to change anything.


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## LoryWiv

Thanks @barontan2418 and @OctavianH. Funny how this  hobbyworks....I am truly enjoying and happy with my GL KT88 quad but still that little voice says "what if there's something better?"


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Yes, I use for almost 4 months the GEC KT66 clear glass with GE 7581A as drivers and have no desire to change anything.


BTW what year are your GEC KT66? The ones I am  eyeing are from late 1960's...not sure if that's as desirable as older ones.


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## OctavianH (May 9, 2020)

Mine are rebranded as "Colomor KT66" and do not have any date marking, or at least I could not find one. But late 60s is perfectly fine, because in the last 6 months I've done some research on these and gathered some information. I will put it here below, taken from another threads and forums and so on and saved in my personal archives.


> Almost all were made by the Marconi-Osram Valve company (M-O valveCo.) using their Genalex label. I have 2 labeled Osram and have seen them labeled Marconi with black bases that are basically the same tube as the GEC's/Genalex. The M-O valve co. was a division of General Electric Co. Ltd. in England and that's why you see the label GEC up through 1968 as well. I have a pair of early 60's, clear glass Gold Lion GEC's that are a great sounding KT66 and were closely matched at the factory. The early black based with the black plates are rare and sound great as well.
> 
> All true British KT66s were made by Marconi-Osram Valve and their assorted branches, and manufacture of them was more or less continuous (with a couple of temporary lapses) at the original Hammersmith factory until the last ones in early 1983. But if you go back before about 1957 they additionally had a few other factories scattered across the U.K. where KT66s were made as well. One, near Manchester, was set up as a kind of secret "shadow plant" during WWII, because Hammersmith was a strategic target of bombing runs and in fact narrowly escaped being bombed directly, with some adjacent buildings in the neighborhood not being so lucky.
> 
> ...


I own 2 pairs of NOS KT66: a grey glass one and a clear glass one. The clear glass, rebranded as Colomor, looks like this:










The grey glass are older, might be 40s, and look like:








For me the year is not very important, but there is a difference in sound between these. The clear glass ones are better in detail reproduction, micro-details and dynamics while the grey glass ones are warmer, more holographic and tubey sounding. But the differences are not big and both have those forward mids I love on electric guitar. You cannot listen to a Black Sabbath album or heavy metal on something better than these tubes. I know that many clear glass tubes were used in guitar amps, so who knows maybe our beloved albums were recorded by people using these, and after 50 years we listen to them on the same models.

The GE7581A I find incredible as driver are:




Here is a picture of the Tung Sol 7581A new production near GE7581A:




And these are my GE 6500A:





Some stuff to read regarding KT66/KT88:
https://jacmusic.com/KT88/kt88.htm#KT66

Some stuff to read regarding guitar amps and 6550A:
http://www.timeelect.com/6550a-ex.htm
And a Fender amp:
http://timeelect.com/400-histy.htm


----------



## LoryWiv

Great information and input, thanks @OctavianH. Listed a few of my previous tubes for sale and if I raise a little money GEC KT66's are next on my list to try. 

Can you comment if the clear glass GEC KT66, while less warm than the gray glass, still would be a step more euphonic and warm than the new production Gold Lions? I found those a bit too analytic.

Thanks!


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Great information and input, thanks @OctavianH. Listed a few of my previous tubes for sale and if I raise a little money GEC KT66's are next on my list to try.
> 
> Can you comment if the clear glass GEC KT66, while less warm than the gray glass, still would be a step more euphonic and warm than the new production Gold Lions? I found those a bit too analytic.
> 
> Thanks!



Hard to say, for sure the sound is cleaner, more detailed and refined, but for euphony I guess you should look for these:




But wait for other opinions here, there are people owning these and can advise you.


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## chrisdrop

OctavianH said:


> Mine are rebranded as "Colomor KT66" and do not have any date marking, or at least I could not find one. But late 60s is perfectly fine, because in the last 6 months I've done some research on these and gathered some information. I will put it here below, taken from another threads and forums and so on and saved in my personal archives.
> 
> I own 2 pairs of NOS KT66: a grey glass one and a clear glass one. The clear glass, rebranded as Colomor, looks like this:
> 
> ...


Beautiful tube pix @OctavianH. Phone camera or a real camera? I need to take some tube pictures today!


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## OctavianH

At that time I used my Galaxy S7 camera which was fine. But since then I flashed on it a custom LineageOS android 10 and the camera quality decreased a lot because the custom ROMs are not using the software and proprietary Samsung tweaks. So newer pictures of mine are done by an entry level mirrorless (Olympus E-PL8).


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## Scutey (May 9, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> Hard to say, for sure the sound is cleaner, more detailed and refined, but for euphony I guess you should look for these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I' own both clear and coated NOS versions of the KT66 for the last five months and @OctavianH has pretty much nailed it, I would definitely say the coated is a bit more euphonic, slightly fuller sounding with a bit more body in the bass, but there's not much in it, I've found the they pair really well with the  old stock Tung Sol 6550 for powers.


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## barontan2418 (May 9, 2020)

Hi LoryWiv.
Just had a session using 3 different sets of GEC 66's driving GL KT88's on Elise (two smoked glass and one clear pair) and all three pairs caused a slight hum. This I believe was the main reason I didn't persevere with this combination earlier in the year. Irrespective of the above the clear glass 66's produced the best overall results for me. Better clarity and not so warm as the grey glass, as others have mentioned. However in Euforia I have found the grey glass to perform better overall than the clear glass. To my mind the GEC's preform better in the power position and driven by the GE 7581A its outstanding.
I would also mention that IMO there is no need to pay big bucks for nos tubes. A good used pair from a reputable seller would be just fine. These tubes were designed to take far more than either Elise or Euforia can throw at them and should last a good amount of time. Same applies to the GE 7581A if you decide to give them a try. I have both nos and used of both the above tubes and no difference noticeable to me.


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## LoryWiv

barontan2418 said:


> Hi LoryWiv.
> Just had a session using 3 different sets of GEC 66's driving GL KT88's on Elise (two smoked glass and one clear pair) and all three pairs caused a slight hum. This I believe was the main reason I didn't persevere with this combination earlier in the year. Irrespective of the above the clear glass 66's produced the best overall results for me. Better clarity and not so warm as the grey glass, as others have mentioned. However in Euforia I have found the grey glass to perform better overall than the clear glass. To my mind the GEC's preform better in the power position and driven by the GE 7581A its outstanding.
> I would also mention that IMO there is no need to pay big bucks for nos tubes. A good used pair from a reputable seller would be just fine. These tubes were designed to take far more than either Elise or Euforia can throw at them and should last a good amount of time. Same applies to the GE 7581A if you decide to give them a try. I have both nos and used of both the above tubes and no difference noticeable to me.


Thanks so much for sharing the results of your tests with the 3 pairs, really clear and helpful @barontan2418. I am definitely keeping my eyes open for the GEC KT66. Will report back!


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## LoryWiv (May 15, 2020)

Hey @OctavianH and @barontan2418, hope you are well. Finally scored a pair of GE 7581A and put them into driver position, unfortunately no GEC KT66's yet so using GL KT88 powers. First impression several hours in is that the 7581A's definitely add a welcome warmth and musicality, move the mids a bit more forward (but some woodiness / grain), bass perfect quantity but a bit loose, and biggest negative is rolled off top end. Hoping they may acquire a bit more top end sparkle and mids will become more liquid when in situ longer. Do they change much in Elise over time?

Early days but I definitely agree these are special tubes, bringing musicality and warmth, albeit with some negatives as above. I may try them with my GL KT77 powers which are a bit brighter, or even try the 7581A's in power posiition driven by a more traditional Sylvania 6SN7GT. Have either of you tried the GE 7581A in power slot?

Anyway, thanks for all of the tips and I'll keep searching for an affordable pair of GE KT66 to pair with these.


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## OctavianH

The rolled top off is definitely not a problem, but use something different in the power position, like for example EL38 or wait for KT66. I tried them in power position but I was never very pleased about it. KT77 might be a better match than KT88, if I remember correctly.


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## LoryWiv (May 15, 2020)

Update: A bit more time with the GE 7581A, different power pairings --> no real change. However, I now have them in power position driven by circa 1950's Sylvania 6SN7GT and do like what I am hearing. Retains the warmth but now better detail retrieval, bass less "flabby" and better treble extension. Will continue to evaluate, keep eyes peeled for GEC KT66 (but I don'twant to spend > $400 USD as they seem to be going for!) and appreciate the guidance. I would have never discovered this interesting tube without this thread, even it is a bit lonely in here of late. Is social distancing really necessary on a forum?


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## OctavianH

I upgrade my Gaming PC in this period. Cyberpunk 2077 comes in September and I want to play it in better conditions. But if you are a gamer I can share my work in that personal project.


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## Scutey

A vision in grey. But not a grey sound!


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## barontan2418

Yet another great sounding combo on Elise.


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## LoryWiv

barontan2418 said:


> Yet another great sounding combo on Elise.


I probably should know but can you say what tubes those are? Thank @barontan2418 s.


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## LoryWiv (May 15, 2020)

GE 7581A driven by Sylvania 6SN7 GT, really enjoying the vintage sounds...perhaps a little less refined than my quad of GL KT88's but there is musical magic here.


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## barontan2418

LoryWiv said:


> I probably should know but can you say what tubes those are? Thank @barontan2418 s.



GEC KT66's driven by the Russian GU50's. These tubes require external power. I've been trying various tube configurations with these on my Euforia but this is first time on Elise.


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## OctavianH

Nothing new, but some good white beer from the northern Austria.


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## LoryWiv (May 17, 2020)

Well, GE 7581A's are back in the driver's seat, GL KT88 powers, and definitely improving: bass tightening, treble extending and mid grain receding. If only it could make my white's whighter and my color's brighter.

Seriously though, the GE's are sounding good. I have been wanting to try Tung Sol KT150 powers and pulled the trigger today (damn EBay coupon... must resist next time.) They require  1.7 to 2 A of heater current, so even assuming the higher end should be safe in Elise with 2.0 x 2 = 4.0 A driving 2X GE 7581A at 0.9 A (1.8 pair) --> 5.8 A total. I believe Elise can handle up to 6.5 A, correct?

I read on another site (don't know if it's ok to mention so let's just call it audiog*n) that KT150 can be hard to bias correctly, due to needing 600 V at plate, but Elise autobiases powers, I believe. Can anyone verify that these are compatible as powers in our amp?


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## OctavianH

KT150 are fine. I tried them without problems with KT66 as drivers:






Everything sounds as if on steroids, these are very energetic powers.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> KT150 are fine. I tried them without problems with KT66 as drivers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I could use a jolt of energy about now, to counter the pandemic blues.  Thanks, @OctavianH. Be well.


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## OctavianH (May 19, 2020)

I have to admit I have not done completely my homework related to KT77 and KT150. But what I can say both are very interesting subjects. I still have on my shopping list a pair of NOS KT77 but at the moment my other project keeps me and my wallet busy.


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## Lord Raven

Hi Elise owners, a quick question about Elise power rating. It says in specs that it does 200mW but at what Ohms? My HD800 is 300Ohms, how much power is Elise out putting? Thanks


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## Lord Raven

Lord Raven said:


> Hi Elise owners, a quick question about Elise power rating. It says in specs that it does 200mW but at what Ohms? My HD800 is 300Ohms, how much power is Elise out putting? Thanks


Anyone?


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## barontan2418

Lord Raven said:


> Anyone?


Sorry Lord Raven I cannot answer your question however I have HD800 300 ohm and Beyer T1 600 ohm and both Elise and Euforia  drive both headphones exceptionally well. Dependent on tube choice you will never need to go past 12:00 on the volume dial.


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## Lord Raven

barontan2418 said:


> Sorry Lord Raven I cannot answer your question however I have HD800 300 ohm and Beyer T1 600 ohm and both Elise and Euforia  drive both headphones exceptionally well. Dependent on tube choice you will never need to go past 12:00 on the volume dial.


Thanks. I had both these pairs and never had power shortage. It's just that someone asked me this on HD800 thread and couldn't find the right answer.


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## LoryWiv (May 22, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> KT150 are fine. I tried them without problems with KT66 as drivers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey @Octavian I received the Tung Sol KT150's, driven by GE 7581A. Compared to the Genalex GL KT88 powers using same drivers, I agree these bring the energy. Leading edge of notes is incisive and clean, almost percussive as if you can perceive the driver excursion like with speakers. Surprisingly, it is not fatiguing though, at least not yet, perhaps because the note weight is solid.

Tonally, I am loving the upper mids and treble, presented more forward than with the KT88 and really well-extended in a bell-like way, without ever veering into shrill or piercing. As yet I'm less certain of the lower mids and bass, still evaluating. The mids layer well with the rest of the frequencies but could use more liquidity / euphonic warmth; they sound a bit clinical thus far. Bass quality is fine and tuneful but doesn't hit as hard as KT88, surprising given how beefy the KT150's are billed as. Back to good news, however, is that instrument separation, air and stage are spot on for my taste. Elements of the music are distinct but integrate in a coherent and natural way.

Early days and will continue to assess. The tubes had 24 hour burn in on arrival and I've added another 8-10 in my Elise. It'll be interesting to see what further burn-in (tubes / my ears or both) will bring.


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## OctavianH

I will put back my KT150 as soon as I get rid of my current problems. In the meantime, listen to your tubes on proper music:


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I will put back my KT150 as soon as I get rid of my current problems. In the meantime, listen to your tubes on proper music:



Current problems....other than the global pandemic? Hope you get it sorted.


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## OctavianH

Nothing unusual, just the highs and lows of the USB input as a source for DACs. I've built a new gaming system for me and I started to have again problems with JCAT and USB connection and I fight here to solve. All is good, after all the CXC works and I can listen to my amp via toslink while configuring stuff on my new PC.


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## LoryWiv

Good to have options other than direct USB. I have settled on I2S using a Singxer SU-1 between PC and DAC.

BTW, still enjoying the KT150 driven by GE 7581A. let me know what you think when you give it a go.


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## LoryWiv

Lovin' the energy of these KT150's and swapped the GE 7581A's for Sylvania 6SN7WGT's.  Bass is improved, perhaps a bit less impressed with treble which excelled with the 7581A's but the current combo. also does beautifully. So here's the long and short of it (pun intended):


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## LoryWiv (May 24, 2020)

Quick update / question: Rolled the GE 7581A's back-in. w/TS KT150 powers This is the classic trade-off: The 7581A's with KT150 produce the sweetest, magical treble I've ever coaxed out of Elise. Addictively beautiful. The (-)'s are:
     1. A very slight bit of hum, both channels, not audible w/music playing and I can live with it.
     2, Definitely less tightness and "thunder" to the bass vs. Sylvania 6SN7WGT, and the latter also provide more detail / transparency in the mids.

So the search continues for drivers to pair with the KT150 that combines the sweet treble and euphony of GE 7581A with the clarity and bass slam or the Sylvania 6SN7WGT.

Suggestions?


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## LoryWiv

Brimar 6SN7GT drivers in the house.Not the last word in detail or treble extension but oh man, are they musical. Bass is warm and rich without bleeding into mids, which in turn are sweetly lush but very natural and organic sounding. I have never experienced female vocals like the ones these tubes produce. Instruments layer very well also. Jusd wish there was a tad more plankton and treble extension. Still, a great tube with which to just enjoy music.


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## LoryWiv

Hoping this thread hasn't gone fully dark as I have a quick question: The Tung-Sol KT-150's I've been running as powers with adapters from Deyan are 6.3 volt like other Elise powers, draw <= 2 amps heater current which is less than 6AS7's. However, they have a very high plate disiipation of 70 watts, m ore than 4x compared to 6AS7G family. Besides potentially more power output would this aspect alone be expected to influence the souund, and most importantly, can this high plate dissipation potentially damage the Elise?


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## OctavianH

I have been long gone for a few weeks in the realm of PC builders. I have built a new gaming PC which will be, as before, source for my audio line. There have been some not very pleasant surprises during the path, with BIOS update crashes, motherboard bricking and then some networking issues which were all solved with a lot of beer and patience and also the help of the gaming community and manufacturers support. The result looks nice and I will share it, even if it is totally out of topic. However, I dragged some conclusions which are useful for the folks here, if they will ever use the PC as a source.

So, this is my latest month occupation:













For the ones interested, we have here an AMD Ryzen 3900X overclocked on all 12 cores at 4.3GHz (1.27V) with 32GB of RAM G-Skill RipjawsV at 3600MHz CL14 on a MSI X570 MEG ACE motherboard. The video card is my old EVGA GTX 1080Ti iCX SC2. The cooling is done by Noctua (U14S for the CPU, S12A and A14 for case cooling).
The PC case is a Fractal Design Meshify C, a smaller one but with a lot of options for wire management and efficient cooling. The storage is all SSD based, we have 8TB for music (2x4TB Sandisk Ultra 3D) near a Samsung 970 PRO 1TB for OS and a Samsung PM871 256GB for downloads. I power it with a Corsair AX1200i 1200W PSU.
For the USB link to my Qutest I continue to use the JCAT Femto USB card which is externally powered by an 5V Sbooster (it can be seen under the video card, in the first picture). 

I would not normally post this here as it is totally off topic, but I have decided to make an exception because I had some interesting results, audio related, during my tests in the last days. And one of them is that indeed, there is an audible difference when playing from an HDD compared to a SSD. In the previous build my music was stored on a WD 6TB HDD powered directly to the AX1200i. Now, using the 4TB SSDs powered from the same PSU I can say that I hear more details, and the overall sound is cleaner. And the difference is not related to the read/write performance of the SSD, but most probably to the less noise quantity generated when reading data from a static flash memory compared with the mechanical hard drive. I can say that everything sounds cleaner and tighter, not a night/day difference but enough to be observed and enjoyed.
Another thing I have observed is the dramatic effect of PWM fans in the equation of noise reduction. Because this new PC case has no dedicated fan controller and I wanted a good control of the airflow inside it, I had decided to use only PWM fans connected directly to the motherboard. This means I was able to use a variable rotation for each fan in the case. Unfortunately, the impact of setting all these case fans to PWM mode instead of DC as before had a big impact on sound quality. It seems that the square PWM signal generates a lot of noise in the motherboard electrical section and this was somehow transmitted to my DAC. I was hearing a more "metallic" sound, with less bass, everything was sounding thinner and a little bit harsh on specific frequencies. I was almost convinced that the source of my problem are the new SSDs but in the end, after reading a lot of forums (yes, there are a lot of people investigating PC noise on audio forums) I realized that the PWM controllers were the issues. When setting these fans to DC more the problem was gone and I was able to enjoy the music at a superior level than before when using HDDs. Even if I was using the JCAT externally powered, the impact on sound quality was not subtle.

In conclusion:
- SSD can be a good upgrade over HDD as a storage for the music collection
- never use PWM fans inside the case if you use that PC as a source for your DAC
- there a people going much forward than me on filtering, some of them power their SSDs with low noise voltage regulators like for example:
https://czh-labs.com/audiowind-ultr...gulator-module-12520v-15-amp-p0688-p0688.html

So, in the end I learned that there is a "science" of noise reduction when using a PC as a source for an audio line, and there are a lot of people studying it.
I hope my post will be useful for others, even if it is not quite on topic.


----------



## hpamdr

OctavianH said:


> I have been long gone for a few weeks in the realm of PC builders. I have built a new gaming PC which will be, as before, source for my audio line. There have been some not very pleasant surprises during the path, with BIOS update crashes, motherboard bricking and then some networking issues which were all solved with a lot of beer and patience and also the help of the gaming community and manufacturers support. The result looks nice and I will share it, even if it is totally out of topic. However, I dragged some conclusions which are useful for the folks here, if they will ever use the PC as a source.
> 
> So, this is my latest month occupation:
> 
> ...


This is mainly why I switched from heavy all in one Computer to cheap Industrial PC no fan, external 24V psu, ssd, core i7 with 32Gb ram and daphile. I prepare my playlist from UI and start to play, turn of wifi/network .. No need to do many expensive customization..


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## HOWIE13 (Jun 9, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Hoping this thread hasn't gone fully dark as I have a quick question: The Tung-Sol KT-150's I've been running as powers with adapters from Deyan are 6.3 volt like other Elise powers, draw <= 2 amps heater current which is less than 6AS7's. However, they have a very high plate disiipation of 70 watts, m ore than 4x compared to 6AS7G family. Besides potentially more power output would this aspect alone be expected to influence the souund, and most importantly, can this high plate dissipation potentially damage the Elise?


I imagine only Feliks Audio could give you a definite answer but for what it's worth I've been using T-S KT150's as power tubes with a variety of drivers for several months without any problem. At present I'm finding Brimar 6L6G drivers pair very well. I've also had good results with Valvo EL11 as drivers. I find great detail, imaging and soundstage with the KT150's and this suits the music I'm listening to at present. For more warmth the T-S KT120 is a good compromise between the KT150 and the KT88. Incidently, the max current draw for Elise is 6.8A. That's for my original version, later ones may vary, but I doubt by much.


----------



## LoryWiv

HOWIE13 said:


> I imagine only Feliks Audio could give you a definite answer but for what it's worth I've been using T-S KT150's as power tubes with a variety of drivers for several months without any problem. At present I'm finding Brimar 6L6G drivers pair very well. I've also had good results with Valvo EL11 as drivers. I find great detail, imaging and soundstage with the KT150's and this suits the music I'm listening to at present. For more warmth the T-S KT120 is a good compromise between the KT150 and the KT88. Incidently, the max current draw for Elise is 6.8A. That's for my original version, later ones may vary, but I doubt by much.


Thank you @HOWIE13, that's very helpful. I have listed my KT150's for sale *here* but if no sale soon perhaps I'll give them another try w/different drivers. Can you also expand on the difference between  KT120 versus KT88 and KT150 as I've used KT88's and am familiar with their sound, nice overall but a bit "sterile" and reserved sounding compared to the presence and power one experiences with KT150.
Thanks.


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## HOWIE13 (Jun 9, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Thank you @HOWIE13, that's very helpful. I have listed my KT150's for sale *here* but if no sale soon perhaps I'll give them another try w/different drivers. Can you also expand on the difference between  KT120 versus KT88 and KT150 as I've used KT88's and am familiar with their sound, nice overall but a bit "sterile" and reserved sounding compared to the presence and power one experiences with KT150.
> Thanks.


I find the KT88 a bit warm and lush for my ears. A nice euphonic sound as either power or driver tubes (I've not tried a quad) but ultimately have not used them much. Maybe they would suit treble strong headphones or an overbright recording. I should try them with my old K701's if I can find them. KT120 are closer to the K150 and are good power tubes, less upper mid/treble, more lower mid than K150, but it's a small difference to my ears. Both tubes are very quiet in my Elise, completely black background.


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## OctavianH

6 months the same combo, I'm getting old.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> 6 months the same combo, I'm getting old.


If it ain't broke don't fix it!


----------



## Focux

hello fellow feliks owners, are there any of you here who use a qutest as well?

am wondering what output voltage is suitable or rather optimal for my echo since there is variable voltage output on the qutest

have been using mojo with qutest so not sure how this voltage thing is supposed to "benefit" sonically..

thanks in advance!


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## OctavianH

I use Elise with Qutest set to 3V. I used in the past with 2Qute the same with 3V.


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## LoryWiv (Jun 16, 2020)

Well, posted this question of Euforia thread bit no responses. Perhaps the smart people (all of you qualify!) on Elise thread can help clarify.

My question is about tube equivalencies and compatibility with Elise / Euforia. As best as I can determine 6L6 / 6V6 are similar to KT 66 / 88, EL34 is similar to KT77, and EL37 is similar to 7581. I have used adapters from Deyan to run KT 66, 77 and 88 as well as 7581A in Elise. Based on this compatibility is it also expected that any 6L6, 6V6, EL34 or EL37 would work equivalently well using this adapters I already have? Any landmines I should be watchful for? Thanks...still trying to educate myself about the depths, dangers and rewards of this tube rolling rabbit hole.


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## OctavianH

hypnos1 said:


> Hi mordy.
> 
> Given the EL34 is a good bit more powerful even than the EL12, I personally wouldn't want to even try it lol!!...these would seem to be much more for _power_ amp use, not headphone!
> 
> ...



Hi @LoryWiv , I am quoting this old post of @hypnos1 to aswer your question. As far as I know you can use 6L6 or 6V6 but I do not know if anyone from us tried, EL34 not and related to EL37 I have no idea. See above.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Hi @LoryWiv , I am quoting this old post of @hypnos1 to aswer your question. As far as I know you can use 6L6 or 6V6 but I do not know if anyone from us tried, EL34 not and related to EL37 I have no idea. See above.


Thanks, @OctavianH. Is it the plate dissipation wattage that one references to assess how powerful a tube is or some other parameter?


----------



## OctavianH

It's a matter of the pin layout as far as I remember the previous discussions. I found something from the same @hypnos1 on the Euforia thread:



> It's not just that the EL34 pin layout is different to that in the 7581A as we (and others) use it, but it's also different to all the KT family of tubes in that its grid#3 isn't linked internally with the cathode, but in the KTs/7581A it is. And so an amp that wants to use the EL34 and the KTs must make this link inside the amp itself. On top of that, in power amps, the 7581A, along with certain others in the 6L6 family has a higher rating, such that if configured for it can be pushed harder for greater output. BUT, if tubes with the lower rating are used in such an amp, the plate will most likely end up glowing red, and...!! Luckily, as our amps aren't driving these tubes anywhere near max, this isn't an issue for us anyway!  However, as can be seen from the case of EL34 vs KTs, using tubes other than those specified by the manufacturer can have unexpected consequences (and possibly drastic ones, in other instances!



Source here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fel...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-481#post-15297981

PS. I've just found a small website for some tube quickspecs here:
http://www.audiomatica.com/tubes/6sl7.htm


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> It's a matter of the pin layout as far as I remember the previous discussions. I found something from the same @hypnos1 on the Euforia thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. @OctavianH. Approaching a case of the more I learn the less I understand. Thankfully, right now I'm back to "in spec." Tung-Sol 7236 with Brimar or Ken Rad 6SN7 / VT-231, and I must say results are quite enjoyable.I'll keep looking for musical nirvana w/o blowing up Elise or my headphones!


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## OctavianH (Jun 22, 2020)

Currently listening to Harakiri for the Sky:



And a nice article, for those who about to read:
https://kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm


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## OctavianH (Jun 22, 2020)

I have no idea why I always wanted to try this combination and never done it.






Well, not until today. I always felt that the russian re-issues Gold Lions KT77, being warmer than the KT66 clear glass, will be a good pair for the GE 6550A.
And indeed, these tubes are complementing somehow each other providing a very neutral sound, somehow towards solid state, clean and accurate. These are not spectacular for rock music, but I guess for some classical / operatic music might shine. Anyway, not a bad combo at all.

But what happens if we put the KT77s on the power slot for the GE 7581A? Well a lot of bass is coming, and a warmer and relaxed tone.






This is a good example of a tubey sound. Not bad, a little bit too much for my taste.

So at this point I said to myself "Which are ones of the cleanest drivers you have not listened in a long time?" and 3 answers came in my mind: Melz 6H12C, RCA 7N7 and the Ken-Rad VT-99.






And this is how I found an incredible combo. The Melz 6H12C are excellent drivers for the KT77s. What I hear here is much above the previous 2 combos. This combination is something I never thought about but it is a top class one.

When I received these KT77 I always considered them good as drivers. I have no idea why, maybe because of the form being smaller than other powers. It seems I was very wrong, these are for sure good powers for some neutral and detailed drivers. I will, for sure, give more attention to them from now on, as powers.

PS. Who was the high bidder on the Genalex NOS KT77 pair sold yesterday on Ebay by alibossa?


----------



## LoryWiv (Jun 22, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> And this is how I found an incredible combo. The *Melz 6H12C* are excellent drivers for the KT77s. What I hear here is much above the previous 2 combos. This combination is something I never thought about but it is a top class one.
> 
> When I received these KT77 I always considered them good as drivers. I have no idea why, maybe because of the form being smaller than other powers. It seems I was very wrong, these are for sure good powers for some neutral and detailed drivers. I will, for sure, give more attention to them from now on, as powers.



Is the Melz same as 6N12S? If so, I believe it has higher heater current then 6SN7's, correct? In other respects is it drop-in compatible in Elise driver sockets as long as one doesn't exceed total heater current powers / drivers of 6.6A or so?


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## OctavianH (Jun 23, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Is the Melz same as 6N12S? If so, I believe it has higher heater current then 6SN7's, correct? In other respects is it drop-in compatible in Elise driver sockets as long as one doesn't exceed total heater current powers / drivers of 6.6A or so?



Yes, they are 0.9A. Here is a more detailed picture, ugly but sounding nice:




These are drivers with clarity and detail, neutral. So they are a very good combination to "tame" the warmness of the KT77.
The vocals and piano were outstanding.

(0.9A + 1.4A)*2 = 4.6A. I am fine.


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## OctavianH (Jun 23, 2020)

Today I continued to roll drivers for the KT77 and the results were as expected.

And I've started with the beauties, the Ken-Rad VT-99 6F8G which are one of the most beautiful tubes I ever saw:






These are a good combo, warmer than the Melz one, but still detailed and nice. I like it, but since it did not brought anything new to the table I switched them with the Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass:






These are warm drivers for my taste, so the result was as expected. Same for the RCA VT-231 grey glass which were a better match than these but still too warm for me:






I tried also some Sylvania 6SN7GTB:






Then some RCA 5692. I never understood these tubes, even if some claim they are incredible and buy them at very big prices, honestly these fail me:






Both Sylvania and RCA were somehow unexciting, less details and recessed highs for my taste, so I replaced them with Psvane CV181T2 which are my favourite drivers for the Tung Sol 5998:






Surprisingly, these ones were also non exciting for me, even if these make wonders when used with Tung Sol 5998, so I switched them to the RCA 7N7:






And yes, magic happened, as expected and foreseen yesterday. These are close to Melz 6H12C. Very clean, detailed and neutral, a good match for the KT77.

At the end of the day, after I rolled all these drivers (10 pairs if I counted right), the best ones were the Melz 6H12C, RCA 7N7  and maybe on the 3rd place the Ken-Rad VT-99 6F8G. And this confirmed me that I know my drivers, exactly these ones were the ones I was expecting to match properly.

The reason behind my actions is that I expect to receive a pair of NOS Genalex KT77 which I was hunting for a long time. But in order to understand how to pair them, I have decided to put my new production russian re-issues of Gold Lions to work and see how they are pairing with some of my favourite drivers. And yes, we have 3 winners.

And in the end, the KT66 driving KT77, another magic combo:






This brings back that excellent guitar sound, but it sounds a little bit too warm for my taste. However, this one is a nice combo for electric guitar or classic rock.


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## OctavianH (Jun 23, 2020)

And in the end, because there is always and end, I decided to give a second try to the russian KT77 driven by the GE 7581A.






And I liked them much more than yesterday. For progressive rock or recordings from the 70-80s which might sound thin or too analytical when using KT66 as powers these KT77 can bring a little bit of bass and joy to the table. I will keep these for a while, and keep close also the Melz 6H12C.

If I will drag a line after these 2 days, I would say that I learned the following:
1) The absolute combo for modern rock/metal with intense guitar passages is the GEC KT66 clear glass + GE 7581A. I never heard an electric guitar sounding so good.
2) For classical rock or older recordings where the production will sound thin compared to today's standards the KT77 adds exactly what is needed.
3) For classical or vocal music, where the guitar does not matter too much but the clarity and KT sound is desired, the KT77 + Melz 6H12C was the best I could obtain. The female voices or piano sounded very nice to me with these.
4) Very close from the previous option were the RCA 7N7 and the Ken-Rad 6F8G VT-99 when driving the KT77.

Well, that's what I was able to tell about KT77. I never try to describe too much. Interconnects, DAC and personal preferences matter. I just say a few words to help the other have an ideea about what a tube sounds like. But in my case I listen 99% to rock music, this means a lot of electric guitars. So my perception is biased by this genre.
More than this, I have some personal preferences which many might disagree. I do not like silver cables, they sound dry and lifeless to me. I use Chord Qutest with Incissive Neutral as filter and DH Labs Air Matrix as interconnects.

As a good example where KT77 + 7581A shines is my favourite Iron Maiden album, Seventh Son of a Seventh Son:



This album is a total masterpiece but it always sounded thin for me. With this combo I get those incredible guitars, in Infinite Dreams for example, while having enough bass and a holographic overall presentation. This album sounds magic, and it is a perfect example for point 2).


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## LoryWiv (Jun 23, 2020)

Nice work, @OctavianH, you are an inspiration. Genalex vintage tubes do seem difficult to source and quite pricey, let us know how the vintage KT77's perform. I have some 1940's Ken Rad 6V6GT's on order to use as powers with Deyan's adapters. For now I'm back to a "conventional" combo. of Tung-Sol-7236 driven bt Brimar 6SN7GT, actually enjoying it very much. The analytic 7236 are balanced nicely by the Brimar's warmth!


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## OctavianH

Yes, this is exactly how I see them. The 7236 are somehow on the solid state and analytical side, and need warmer drivers. But they are incredible tubes. I have 2 pairs and I like them a lot.
On the other extreme, the Tung Sol 5998 is warmer but it has a precise and punchy bass. Those go well with neutral drivers and make a terrific pair to the Psvane CV181T2.

To make a small joke, The Tung Sol 7236 are the powers I see everyday because they are my desktop background on my PC:






So every time I open it, and I do it daily, I see this picture of the mighty Siemens C3g + Tung Sol 7236. Being a former Siemens employee this reminds me a little bit of the past.

PS. I have not worked in tube or electronics, but on telecom area where Siemens many years ago had a good name and portofolio.


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## LoryWiv

Have you ever had a day where everything just sounded GREAT? Had a work from home day today, fit in some tube rolling. First up was Tung-Sol 7236 with Brimar 6SN7GT, at first seemed overly analytic as noted but over time the stage, instrument separation and frequency extension became quite compelling, balanced by the slightly warmer leaning of the Brimars which added cohering layering of the individual instruments. Very nice with string quartets, piano trios and some classic tock. Next up was the big brother of @OctavianH's new production GL KT77, the GL K88, powered by vintage GE 7581A drivers. Overall this combination is more euphonic despite the treble being prominent, somehow it soars without sibilance. It's also a bit more of an exciting, enveloping sound and "tubey" in the best sense of the word, relaxing but rewards careful listening as well. 
With some music the bass is a tad loose but I thinkto some degree that adds the warmth I'm enjoying.

Main conclusion: Elise is a beautiful and versatile chameleon, finding ways to deliver great sound with (almost) any tube set. It's been a fun day of enjoying music!


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## OctavianH

Today no rolling, I will continue for a while with the KT77 and 7581A until the NOS KT77 arrives, and then try to see if the NOS pair will add something to the table. And since Iron Maiden sounded nice yesterday, I decided to go back 2 years, from 1988 to 1986 and the "Somewhere in Time" album. It is indeed a little bit of loss of focus and detail compared to the KT66 and 7581A but there is also something I like about this.


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## OctavianH (Jun 25, 2020)

Today was the day of experimentation. So I said, let's try to find some strange combos.

So I looked a little bit in my tube boxes and found there these Marconi EL32 VT52 which we bought very cheap when the EL32->39 mania started. There was a seller having a full box, so I had the chance to buy 4 pieses in excellent condition. Unfortunately I never found any good combo to enjoy these. Well, until today.







If these sounded weak to me using 6AS7 as powers and too melow when using other EL tubes, well with the KT77 and KT88 I quite liked them. These are 0.2A tubes, with KT66 I had the feeling something is missing. But with KT88 (in picture, some Ayon KT88sx), the KT77 Genalex reissues and even with GE 6550A these sounded good to my ears.
The quantity of bass and sweetness decreases in this order, and with 6550A I heard an immense sound stage. What to say, I never thought I'll ever use these again.

Then I said, if we search for strange combos the C3g have to be present. So I tried them with the Genalex KT77:






This one sounded to me close to the 6550A + EL32. A lot of air and a very good extension of high frequencies, which some might dislike, but some violins sounded good to me with these. For rock, well, these are decent but not as good as the KT66 but a plus is that I have the feeling of a very energetic combo, reminding me about KT150.

And, to close the evening of the strange combos I decided to give a try to something I am not sure someone tried before. Some of the rarest powers combined to some of the cheapest drivers I have. So here we have the Western Electric 421A combined with the Marconi EL32:






I always considered that these need moderately warm drivers, otherwise they will sound too clean for my taste. So the EL32 give them a very decent amount of sweetness. Bass reminds me of the 5998 when used with clean drivers like Psvane CV181T2, decently clean and punchy. Even if I hear some sibilance now and then, I would say it was an interesting try. And I just tested if these "old boys" are still working as expected, since I had some problems with them in the past. One of them was crackling and I had to apply the treatment learned from mordy to fix them. Well, here they are in full working condition.






I guess I exagerated with spam in the last days, but I had a lot of fun and I hope I tried some unknows recipes.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Today was the day of experimentation. So I said, let's try to find some strange combos.
> 
> So I looked a little bit in my tube boxes and found there these Marconi EL32 VT52 which we bought very cheap when the EL32->39 mania started. There was a seller having a full box, so I had the chance to buy 4 pieses in excellent condition. Unfortunately I never found any good combo to enjoy these. Well, until today.
> 
> ...


Great post, @OctavianH, fun to read about your adventures with Elise. 2 things stood out in addition to your assessment of the various combinations:

1. You were able to fix cracking tubes with a trick learned from Mordy. I have this issue occasionally with my Tung-Sol 7236's, *what is the trick*?

2. You had *a lot of fun*! After all, isn't that the point of this hobby? Some of the posts are so sober and serious (never in Elise thread, of course ) and I appreciate your reminding us of that.

I have some 6V6 en route (see *my post in Euforia thread*) and will report how they pair in various combinations when time permits. Take care and keep rolling!


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## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Great post, @OctavianH, fun to read about your adventures with Elise. 2 things stood out in addition to your assessment of the various combinations:
> 
> 1. You were able to fix cracking tubes with a trick learned from Mordy. I have this issue occasionally with my Tung-Sol 7236's, *what is the trick*?
> 
> ...



The trick is the following (all credits go to him, I just paste some advice he posted on these forums a while back):


> I have had good luck restoring tubes that start to make loud popping noises by heating each pin with a 40W soldering iron for 30 seconds each. Just hold the tube vertically so that if something melts it will not flow into the tube (but really no such problems heating for 30 sec).
> I would say that if the solder starts to seep out you should discontinue heating the pin - the 30 seconds of heat is just a general guide.
> This method is only for crackling and popping noises. For hum and microphonics it may help to stretch tight a band of high temperature self fusing silicone tape (available for automotive and plumbing use) around the glass.



Well, I plan to stop the rolling, it was not very serious nor spent many hours on each one, I just wanted to see how some combos are presenting in 2020 after we found a lot of new tubes types and, I like to think, we raised our standards. I believe that the tube burn in will only improve some existing qualities you hear in the first hours and will not dramatically change how a tube sounds. This is why, even if my EL32 are not fully burned in (I think I have around 30 hours to them) they made an interesting pair to some tubes from the KT family. I strongly think we have a lot to discover about Elise, and we will continue to find very interesting combinations in the years to come.

PS. Keep us informed about the 6V6, I am also curious about some of them.


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## OctavianH

It is clear for me that we need to realign our preferences. The KT family of tubes was a game changer and all the other tubes are now sounding different than what we knew.
For example I enjoyed today the Genalex re-issue of KT77 with RSD EL12N as drivers. These were one of my favourite drivers in the old days, but now they sound different on the KT77. Interesting and fun times we are living.


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## OctavianH

Based on my researches and several very heavy listening tests I realised that KT66 tubes sound much better when Black Sabbath has Bill Ward on drums 



So if you want to obtain maximum performance from your tube amp listen to Black Sabbath, and be sure that Bill Ward is on drums.


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## LoryWiv (Jun 27, 2020)

Thomson 6080 powers, GEC 6V6G drivers (adapters by @Deyan) = a little slice of saturday heaven.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Based on my researches and several very heavy listening tests I realised that KT66 tubes sound much better when Black Sabbath has Bill Ward on drums
> 
> 
> 
> So if you want to obtain maximum performance from your tube amp listen to Black Sabbath, and be sure that Bill Ward is on drums.



Won't argue about that Octavian!, Bill Ward is a brilliant drummer, right up there with John Bonham, this is a particular fave of mine


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## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Thomson 6080 powers, GEC 6V6G drivers (adapters by @Deyan) = a little slice of saturday heaven.



I have 4 x Mullard 6080 and 2 x Philips 6080 SQ. I have a feeling all 6 are the same tube. Anyway I never understood these 6080s. Maybe I need to try them again.


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## LoryWiv (Jun 28, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> I have 4 x Mullard 6080 and 2 x Philips 6080 SQ. I have a feeling all 6 are the same tube. Anyway I never understood these 6080s. Maybe I need to try them again.


At first I thought the Thomson 6080's were a bit too polite, slightly rolled off treble, but with the right drivers they can shine. Stage is great, and tonality is a bit warm, really clean bass though with no bleed, mids are sweet, and highs are there, just not sharp / fatiguing. Probably not ideal for electric guitar or that last bit of cymbal shimmer, but I'm loving it for keyboards, vocals, acoustic jazz and some softer rock.


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## OctavianH

I promised that I will come back with some NOS KT77 impressions. Well, here they are near one of my russian reissues:






As expected these have the same warm and relaxed signature as the reissues, but the level of detail retrieval is higher, more than this the extension on high frequencies is better. With the russian reissues and the GE 7581A I had a small feeling of a "muffled" sound, and here it is not the case anymore. It is a very pleasant and creamy sound with a lot of detail. When mounted on the amp the lights are looking interesting on those rings:


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I promised that I will come back with some NOS KT77 impressions. Well, here they are near one of my russian reissues:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fab pic!, really shows off the internals of those old stock KT77's so well.


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## OctavianH

I have been lucky enough to find here in my country a seller with several pairs of GEC KT66 in original boxes, NOS, but untested. I bought a pair and tested today.






Even if these lovely logos are not printed as they should be, the sound as powers is sublime from the first minutes.






I do not think that, for me, and for rock music, I will ever find something better for guitar sound than these, and I guess these are and will remain my endgame.

The question which remains is : What lifetime we should expect from such a pair? I do not want to live anymore without a pair of these as powers, so I have to ensure that I will have one until I die.


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## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> I have been lucky enough to find here in my country a seller with several pairs of GEC KT66 in original boxes, NOS, but untested. I bought a pair and tested today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really good find. I feel the same about GEC KT88'S and have collected eight in various forms regular 88, TT21 and TT22. I've read in various forums that 500000 hrs is not beyond possibilities for this tube so I expect KT66 especially using our amps could also come close.


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## OctavianH

Wow, this is quite a large amount. Let's hope we will be able to enjoy these incredible tubes a long time from now on.
However, my Colomor branded GEC KT66 pair, which sound exactly as the GEC branded one and look identical, started to have a small problem on one of the tubes.
The problem is that the tube is starting a little bit slower, sometimes I find that the corresponding channel is a little bit muffled and I do not have the same clarity on high frequencies as on the other. But of course, it is a slight amount of difference, not a huge problem and in some passages I cannot hear it. When looking at the tubes I see a small "ring" and marking. Maybe I am crazy. I made some pictures and the region I am talking about is is marked in red, can this be a sign of "something"?





I have to say that I used these tubes extensively in the last 6 months and I might have around 1000-1500 hours on them. I purely love them above everything.


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## barontan2418

Whiteness (cloudiness) is often an indication of a loss of vacuum so I guess it could be the beginning of that. I'm sure some of the old hands on here will either have experienced this or know more about it than I. On the other hand I could be completely wrong and the tube will last a good while. Hope so.


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## LoryWiv

barontan2418 said:


> Really good find. I feel the same about GEC KT88'S and have collected eight in various forms regular 88, TT21 and TT22. I've read in various forums that 500000 hrs is not beyond possibilities for this tube so I expect KT66 especially using our amps could also come close.


Don't TT21, TT22 variants require a different adapter due to top anode, and TT22 external heater to supply needed voltage? Wondering if you've tried 6550, 6550A which appear more "drop-in" compatable with KT88 using 6Vg to AS7 adapters such as those from Deyan.

Thanks, @barontan2418.


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## barontan2418

Hi LW.
Correct about adapters for TT21/22, Deyan made them for me. As for external 12 v psu this I already have for GU50's. I have both GE 6550's and Tung sol both of which  I use along with GE 7581's for Elise. KT88's are being used in Euforia along with GU50'S. Like you I have so many tube combinations that work really well in our amps I shall only now buy replacements if or when needed.I can see your still enjoying your tube rolling so best of luck and enjoy.


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## LoryWiv

barontan2418 said:


> Hi LW.
> Correct about adapters for TT21/22, Deyan made them for me. As for external 12 v psu this I already have for GU50's. I have both GE 6550's and Tung sol both of which  I use along with GE 7581's for Elise. KT88's are being used in Euforia along with GU50'S. Like you I have so many tube combinations that work really well in our amps I shall only now buy replacements if or when needed.I can see your still enjoying your tube rolling so best of luck and enjoy.


Thanks, man, very helpful. Any sound quality differences between GE and Tung-Sol 6550's? I've been interested in trying 6550 to replace my new production GL KT88 but not sure which not sure or how they differ.


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## OctavianH

I own a pair of GE 6550A and the first word which comes into my mind is "clean". I was never very good at describing sound but I can say that these are for me like the TS 7236, less bass, very clear and clean sound on all the frequency range with a wide sound stage. This is why I thought about them when you described your VT-115A, I recognized what I heard in the GE 6550A in your description. I do not have the TS 6550A but from what I've read on several threads they are warmer than these, so more bass at a slight cost of clarity. Compared to KT88, I guess KT88 has a deeper bass but they are somehow drier and sterile compared to these. Well, I cannot describe more but maybe someone will add here some better descriptions.
I would pair the GE 6550A with warmer drivers to shine, for example I tried them with EL32 and liked what I heard.


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## OctavianH

1976. Black Sabbath was releasing Technical Ecstasy where the last track is Dirty Women. GEC was manufacturing these KT66 tubes used as powers in my amp.







44 years later I am here. The tubes have 44 years, the song the same. I am younger, but close. Time passes.


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## OctavianH

I read this article, which I find a little bit silly, but anyway, for those interested in KT88:
https://medialux.blog/2020/03/25/gec-kt88-the-king-of-power-tubes-part-1/

After reading this I wonder how an amp designed for KT66/77/88 sounds. Because I am sure that in our amps, via our adapters, we are not listening to the true sound of these tubes. Maybe we like it being distorted and if we buy such an amp, correctly biased for them, we will not like it. I would be very curious to know if someone tried KT tubes in Feliks amps and had the chance to listen to them in other amps built for them, to make a comparison.


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## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> I read this article, which I find a little bit silly, but anyway, for those interested in KT88:
> https://medialux.blog/2020/03/25/gec-kt88-the-king-of-power-tubes-part-1/
> 
> After reading this I wonder how an amp designed for KT66/77/88 sounds. Because I am sure that in our amps, via our adapters, we are not listening to the true sound of these tubes. Maybe we like it being distorted and if we buy such an amp, correctly biased for them, we will not like it. I would be very curious to know if someone tried KT tubes in Feliks amps and had the chance to listen to them in other amps built for them, to make a comparison.


I've read this article in the past and have wondered the same. I'm using GEC KT88 of all three varieties, TT21/TT22 and regular KT88"S  along side GU50'S as powers in different combinations and love the results. Like you I doubt we are hearing anything like their true capabilities. I might well in the future look out for a headphone amp that runs on KT88's most of the reading I've done has been associated with guitar amps but hopefully there are amps designed for headphones also?


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## OctavianH (Jul 10, 2020)

barontan2418 said:


> I've read this article in the past and have wondered the same. I'm using GEC KT88 of all three varieties, TT21/TT22 and regular KT88"S  along side GU50'S as powers in different combinations and love the results. Like you I doubt we are hearing anything like their true capabilities. I might well in the future look out for a headphone amp that runs on KT88's most of the reading I've done has been associated with guitar amps but hopefully there are amps designed for headphones also?



Yes, there are a few, but for a while I look at this one:
https://www.wbamp.com/product/virtus-01-headphones-otl-tube-amplifier/

However, I was never brave enough to order it, and I am quite pleased about Elise. Since I've discovered the KT66 and the GE 7581A everything changed for me, in a good way.

Later edit:

And when the weekend is starting and the good music alongside a good beer is the perfect way to embrace it, crap HAPPENS. Well, while listening and enjoying music everything stops. I said "The DAC died". Luckily me not. After several investigations I realized that the Sbooster is the problem. I use this Sbooster 5V LPS to power JCAT, the USB PCIex card which connects my music from my PC to the DAC. Well, this card is externally powered and it seems Sbooster is not providing it 5V. Why? It seems the fuse is the problem.
So yes, why to enjoy a nice evening with your tubes and a beer when you can start to measure stuff in your LPS to find the culprit.






And the Sbooster 5V inside:


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## OctavianH (Jul 10, 2020)

But the best way to test your KT tubes is heavy metal.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Yes, there are a few, but for a while I look at this one:
> https://www.wbamp.com/product/virtus-01-headphones-otl-tube-amplifier/
> 
> However, I was never brave enough to order it, and I am quite pleased about Elise. Since I've discovered the KT66 and the GE 7581A everything changed for me, in a good way.
> ...


That's a bummer, now I know why you've had a crappy day now, frustrating when all you want to do is chill out and listen to some wicked tunes, hope it doesn't mess things up for too long.


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## OctavianH (Jul 11, 2020)

Scutey said:


> That's a bummer, now I know why you've had a crappy day now, frustrating when all you want to do is chill out and listen to some wicked tunes, hope it doesn't mess things up for too long.



I read the F.A.Q. on the Sbooster website and that fuse has to be an audio slow blow 20x5mm 250V 400mA but honestly, nothing seems to be audio about that LPS. So I guess any fuse is the same. Unfortunately I do not have one at home at the moment.

An article about guitars, amps and tubes:
https://www.samash.com/spotlight/tubes-and-tone-understanding-different-amplifier-tubes/

And an excerpt from the article:



> *KT66 Tubes*
> 
> The KT66 tube was introduced by Marconi-Osram Valve Co. in 1937. In design it is very similar to the 6L6. KT66 tubes generally have thicker glass and are wider and taller than 6L6 tubes. While they work in any amp designed for a 6L6 (if it fits), the KT66 draws more current from the heater. It is a good idea to check with an amp tech to make sure your amp can handle the extra draw.
> 
> ...


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## OctavianH

Listening this morning to the Paradise Lost - One Second album is an absolutely incredible experience for me. The M Scaler is adding an incredible depth and edge to the sound.






If you really want to experience most of your CD collection, and I have a big one, you should add M Scaler. Incredible!


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## OctavianH (Jul 15, 2020)

Anyone heard of the brand Tronix before? Seems related to Brimar or maybe some rebrands. I look and these wondering how they would sound on Elise. 6.3V/0.45A.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Anyone heard of the brand Tronix before? Seems related to Brimar or maybe some rebrands. I look and these wondering how they would sound on Elise. 6.3V/0.45A.


Can't speak to this brand but I have several types of 6V6's that sound great as drivers in Elise, w/adapters of course.


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## OctavianH (Jul 17, 2020)

I think we should go this path to try the 6V6 and all the related ones, but I am lazy and I promised my wallet to let it live.

In the meantime I needed some bass because I exchanged my interconnects to burn in an older pair I never liked enough and almost forgot about, so I just switched the powers: KT77 instead KT66. Problem solved, let the music flow 






One thing I do not like at these KT77 is that they reach much higher temps than KT66 and it is not very clear for me why. In rest, all perfect.

Later edit:






So we discuss about 120C @ KT77 vs 60C @ 7581A and the KT66 are at the same level when used as powers.


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## OctavianH

I went today to try a combo which in the past has not remained in my mind as good, even if I had tried it with the KT77 reissues. Well, with the NOS KT77 this sounds different, not as "sweet" as with KT77/7581A but still, enjoyable and with a small increase of detail. I like it!







These KT88/KT77/KT66/7581A are all sounding so good in almost every combination, and since it seems there is a good path to follow also with 6V6, I wonder what would happen if we would own an amp designed for tube rolling and built for these families.
Almost everything I try sounds good, and I remember the days of the 6SN7/6AS7 where the synergy was, in my opinon, much harder to find and the level of clarity was much under what we can achieve using these.


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## Scutey

That was my combo yesterday, sadly it was the reissue KT77, and it sounded great, I can imagine NOS being a significant step up in sound, one day, soon I hope, I'll find a pair on ebay that nobody has noticed and get them for less than £100, well I can dream! , re all the KT tubes, as you rightly say you can mix and match in almost any combination and come up with a great sound, this morning I'm even enjoying the KT88, which until now I've not been overly keen on, must be the Qutest effect!.


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## OctavianH

There is a difference between KT77 NOS and reissue, like with all the others. But the KT77 NOS are very rare, and when they appear for sale, the prices are very high. I am also watching silently in darkness for a pair.


----------



## Scutey

Uh oh, could the scramble for a bargain NOS pair of KT77 be the end of a beautiful friendship? .


----------



## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> Uh oh, could the scramble for a bargain NOS pair of KT77 be the end of a beautiful friendship? .


All's fair in love and tube rolling, right?


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Uh oh, could the scramble for a bargain NOS pair of KT77 be the end of a beautiful friendship? .



I would say, let our powers combine to find all the hidden KT77 and seize them.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I would say, let our powers combine to find all the hidden KT77 and seize them.


Liking the sound of that! .


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> All's fair in love and tube rolling, right?


I think Octavian and me have just done a sort of blood brothers tube rolling pact .


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 22, 2020)

Yes, we are the Kights of the Halo Getter, coming to your home to take your KT77s from your stash. 

Today I wanted to test the "cup getter" version of the GEC KT66. Well, it is very close to the halo getter version, but a very slight warmer. However, it is such a small difference that maybe it is all in my brain. Later I'll try also the "grey glass" pair I have.






Later Edit:

Yep, these are warmer than both clear glass versions.


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 23, 2020)

I think this post will make @LoryWiv happy.  I managed to find these at a very decent price and got 2 pairs:





There is no date code or anything except "6V6G" on the boxes, no date code or anything on the tubes either:




Since these are black and shinny are not looking very nice in pictures but anyway:




I like to joke that the MOV grey glass KT66 are the funeral power pair for me, since I find them looking somehow martial. Well, these Tronix 6V6G are not helping either with their black glass. So I can call this the complete funeral combo.

I tried to find out who manufactured these, but unfortunately, without any date code, I can rely only on the image. I found this but I am not sure if I am on the right path:






But, now comes the interesting part, the sound is* very good*. These have more bass than the GE 7581A and also a very clean sound, exactly like @LoryWiv described them. Great sound from a pair I do not really know who manufactured it. I feel these do not have those sweet mids, but they complement very good the KT66 which sometimes has not enought bass for my taste.

After trying also the 6V6G I am more and more convinced that 6SN7/6AS7 is a part of the history for me, I think about selling my whole collection in the future. There is no turning back, at least for me, when KT66/77/88/7581A are available and when you can find such a good driver quite cheap. Honestly, no turning back. These will remain, for sure, one of the best drivers I ever tried on Elise.

If someone knows more about these or can help, it will be appreciated.

Later edit:

I think the internal construction, at least what I can see through the black glass, is close to these:
https://www.hifido.co.jp/sold/17-12052-61413-00.html?LNG=E


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I think this post will make @LoryWiv happy.  I managed to find these at a very decent price and got 2 pairs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those look like very nice tubes, you've got a bargain ... again! , you're initial thoughts sound encouraging, I like the sound of more bass!, as for their origin Brimar might be a possibility?.

Following on from @barontan2418's "little beauties", I thought I'd try my EL32, h1 specials, with NOS Tung Sol 6550, this is a really nice sound, warm, full bodied, deep bass, fully detailed mids, especially with guitars, great with classic rock.


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 23, 2020)

They certainly are promising. But the bass quantity was for me, at least, a little bit too much. I tried them later with GE 6550A and now with GEC clear glass KT66 and the things are more towards that type of sound I like. So I prefer these with colder powers. Anyway, good find, it seems we have a good alternative for more bass when using these new tube families without returning to the 6SN7.






However, in the book I've just found and mentioned on the Euforia thread I find some not very encouraging things about Tronix :



> The final phase in the declining years of the British valve industry occurred during the 1970s when such firms as *Tronix*, Trigon, and Zacrix *purchased valves from any source where they were still procurable and added their own brandnames. By this time it was almost impossible to determine the identity of the maker or even the country of origin. It is known that some of these valves were imported from eastern European countries such as Poland whilst others were obtained from the U.S.S.R.. Communist countries*, it seems, had either stock-piled large quantities of tubes or else were not in such a hurry to discard tube-operated equipment, with the consequent need to continue tube manufacture for a longer period. There is an aspect of tube collecting which may assume greater importance with the passing of time and that is the possibility of encountering either reproductions or even fakes. While there can be no quarrel with the idea of reproducing at a later period any earlier man-made articles, be it works of art or whatever, there always remains the possibility of their being passed off as originals. The existence of faked paintings is a well-known example of this sort of thing. Human nature being what it is, there is no reason to believe that the same cannot happen in the case of radio tubes, even if it may seem unlikely.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> They certainly are promising. But the bass quantity was for me, at least, a little bit too much. I tried them later with GE 6550A and now with GEC clear glass KT66 and the things are more towards that type of sound I like. So I prefer these with colder powers. Anyway, good find, it seems we have a good alternative for more bass when using these new tube families without returning to the 6SN7.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting info you've found, seems we will have to be quite careful, those though look like the "real deal", and as per usual, you've piqued my interest, think I may be forced to try a pair! . Oh and great pics!.


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 23, 2020)

They do not seem to be russian made. Honestly look more like STC (australian?). However, at that price and judging by the sound I really like them. These are perfect to warm up the KT66, 6500A or even KT77 and KT88 which are for me warm enough, and need more neutral drivers. Since these are NOS I will keep them for some hours on the amp just to see how they evolve and I really hope the bass response will not increase, as normally it happens with these kind of tubes. What I hear is quite similar with what @LoryWiv described here related to Sylvania VT115A + GEC 6V6G.

Later edit:

And because a picture makes more than 1000 words, I have to admit I start to like more an more the look of my newly found black beauties:


----------



## OctavianH

After 12 hours on these I am more and more convinced that the 6V6G are very special drivers. These are warming up the KT66 and provide a very refined tone.






Tracks like Anathema - Leaving it Behind where you need some strong bass are sounding outstanding:


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> After 12 hours on these I am more and more convinced that the 6V6G are very special drivers. These are warming up the KT66 and provide a very refined tone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi. OctavianH.
At 68 I've yet to dip my toe into your flavoured music and having your favoured tubes thought I might give it a go. So which artist and album would you suggest.


----------



## OctavianH

barontan2418 said:


> Hi. OctavianH.
> At 68 I've yet to dip my toe into your flavoured music and having your favoured tubes thought I might give it a go. So which artist and album would you suggest.



Well, my music starts from 70s to 2020. You can try the first Black Sabbath album or go directly into black metal. But if you choose Elise, KT66 + 7581A I would suggest for such a lovely evening to try this album:



The first track is one of my favourite and a good test for a new combo. I always try it. If you like it, you might try also:



I would say these two are great choices for the KT family. Atmospheric and really emotional.

Of course, I like also your suggestion of Michael Jackson - Thriller, a classic, or of course, any album of Depeche Mode discography. But for KT tubes I would try Precious:



But of course, today I am lazy. I might go to faster and heavier sounds if needed.


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> Well, my music starts from 70s to 2020. You can try the first Black Sabbath album or go directly into black metal. But if you choose Elise, KT66 + 7581A I would suggest for such a lovely evening to try this album:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Many thanks for your comprehensive reply OctavianH. I will download your suggestions, fit the appropriate tubes and chill out with a bottle of Jack Daniel's.


----------



## OctavianH

barontan2418 said:


> Many thanks for your comprehensive reply OctavianH. I will download your suggestions, fit the appropriate tubes and chill out with a bottle of Jack Daniel's.


 Please do so. I hope I was wise enough to provide you the proper suggestions. I have started to taste a good red transylvanian wine and listen to Axel Rudi Pell's Into the Storm album.






Not too heavy, not too soft, but a very good album with an incredible cover of "Hey hey my my" by Neil Young. Good quality music for a good tubey evening near 6V6G.



Heavy metal will never die


----------



## OctavianH

And let's not forget that tomorrow Primal Fear is releasing the new album:


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> And let's not forget that tomorrow Primal Fear is releasing the new album:



Plenty of food for thought. 🥂 enjoy the wine sounds nice.


----------



## Scutey

barontan2418 said:


> Hi. OctavianH.
> At 68 I've yet to dip my toe into your flavoured music and having your favoured tubes thought I might give it a go. So which artist and album would you suggest.


Do we have a potential convert to the metal cause @barontan2418 ?, some excellent choices by Octavian btw, as a metal fan for nearly forty years I hope you don't mind me slipping in a couple suggestions from my misspent youth. 








OctavianH said:


> Heavy metal will never die


Amen to that Octavian .


----------



## barontan2418

Scutey said:


> Do we have a potential convert to the metal cause @barontan2418 ?, some excellent choices by Octavian btw, as a metal fan for nearly forty years I hope you don't mind me slipping in a couple suggestions from my misspent youth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good job I've got a full bottle. Could be a long session. Reserved for the weekend. On the moors tomorrow so need some sleep us old uns have to pace ourselves.😩. Thanks guys.


----------



## LoryWiv (Jul 23, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> After 12 hours on these I am more and more convinced that the 6V6G are very special drivers. These are warming up the KT66 and provide a very refined tone.


I am really glad you are enjoying the 6V6. By happy coincidence, I put GEC 6V6 pair back in last night driving the Sylvania VT-115A's and am liking them more than ever. You are correct they need a fairly neutral power, but the good news is I don't find them to warm further with burn in, and indeed while they don't emphasize top end sparkle I really appreciate that the frequency extension is all there, just not "in your face." Same with the mids, neither forward nor recessed, just organic and liquid. At the risk of being asked to leave the cool kids metal table, last evening I listened to my favorite Fairport Convention album, and Sandy Denny's voice on "Who Knows Where the Time Goes" was chill-inducing, Richard Thompson's sneaky great guitar fills not too shabby either. Good times to roll with Elise! And yes, I find the 6V6 black glass very regal and handsome looking!


----------



## Scutey

barontan2418 said:


> Good job I've got a full bottle. Could be a long session. Reserved for the weekend. On the moors tomorrow so need some sleep us old uns have to pace ourselves.😩. Thanks guys.


Enjoy the JD, that's proper metal whiskey btw!.


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 24, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> I am really glad you are enjoying the 6V6. By happy coincidence, I put GEC 6V6 pair back in last night driving the Sylvania VT-115A's and am liking them more than ever. You are correct they need a fairly neutral power, but the good news is I don't find them to warm further with burn in, and indeed while they don't emphasize top end sparkle I really appreciate that the frequency extension is all there, just not "in your face." Same with the mids, neither forward nor recessed, just organic and liquid. At the risk of being asked to leave the cool kids metal table, last evening I listened to my favorite Fairport Convention album, and Sandy Denny's voice on "Who Knows Where the Time Goes" was chill-inducing, Richard Thompson's sneaky great guitar fills not too shabby either. Good times to roll with Elise! And yes, I find the 6V6 black glass very regal and handsome looking!



Yes, exactly this is what I am hearing: organic sound. I would not mind to have the mids a little bit forward, but for this the GE 7581A are making a good job, at a small cost of clarity. This is the best part of our tube amps, we can alter the sound based on what we like or what the record needs to shine. Today is the second day with the 6V6G and I am always afraid of the 2nd day because if my brain was messing with me yesterday, altering the perception, today I would find a different sound than expected. But not, these sound exactly like I remembered from the first moment I turn on the amp. Incredible drivers, many thanks for taking us on this path, and I have a feeling we will not stop here. 

PS. Another good thing about these is that they warm around 45C. So they are not very hot either.


----------



## OctavianH

By the way, anyone considered to try these?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tests-NOS-Matched-Pair-RCA-USA-6V6-Metal-Vacuum-Tubes-100/153863669826






These are hard to find in Europe but I see that in the US they are easy to find at a quite decent price.


----------



## OctavianH (Jul 25, 2020)

After 20 hours on these 6V6G I realize that they do not really evolve, they are exactly the same as in the begnining, which is not a problem because they were rock solid from the first minutes.

From the online book, *Stokes - 70 Years of radio tubes and valves*:
https://nvhrbiblio.nl/biblio/boek/Stokes - 70 Years of radio tubes and valves.pdf
I find out that 6V6 and 6V6G are identical, only the "G" is the glass version. So the metal ones should work perfectly and sound the same or close in our amps. 
Or at least these are my expectations.






What to say, a very interesting book for those like me, newbies in the land of the valves/tubes.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> After 20 hours on these 6V6G I realize that they do not really evolve, they are exactly the same as in the begnining, which is not a problem because they were rock solid from the first minutes.
> 
> From the online book, *Stokes - 70 Years of radio tubes and valves*:
> https://nvhrbiblio.nl/biblio/boek/Stokes - 70 Years of radio tubes and valves.pdf
> ...





OctavianH said:


> By the way, anyone considered to try these?
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tests-NOS-Matched-Pair-RCA-USA-6V6-Metal-Vacuum-Tubes-100/153863669826
> 
> 
> ...


I must admit I didn't know the metal version existed, I do have a pair of the metal 6N7 and the 6N7G, I've found the metal version of that tube to be bit leaner/neutral compared to the G version, of course that might not apply to the 6V6.


----------



## OctavianH

I had a nice surprise today with a quad of GE 7581A. A clean and detailed sound, with the mids in your face, not as warm as with the KT66 on powers, but cleaner and with better highs. Hard to say why I never tried this before, but I do not regret it. The only problem I find with these is the bass which is under my expectation.


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 6, 2020)

Well, things got a little bit messy on the Eastern Front. The beer is the culprit, as always. 







Today I wanted to see where the Tung Sol 5998 and Psvane CV181T2 are sitting in 2020. I tried also the 5998 with the 6V6G and was not impressed. But this old combo which was my favourite definitely has something to say. This remembers me about 2018.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Today I wanted to see where the Tung Sol 5998 and Psvane CV181T2 are sitting in 2020. I tried also the 5998 with the 6V6G and was not impressed. But this o*ld combo which was my favourite definitely has something to say*. This remembers me about 2018.


Good to hear. I am old too and still have much to say!


----------



## OctavianH

I know, waiting for you new findings. 😁


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I know, waiting for you new findings. 😁


You are kind. We have young grandchildren visiting for several weeks so Elise and it's tempting tubes are put away temporally. Roughing it with a Liquid Spark and IEM's. Thankfully the kids are very cute so I don't mind too much>


----------



## OctavianH

Switched back to my DH Labs Air Matrix interconnects, so need to do some more rolling. This time the Marconi EL32 + KT66. Tried this before, with the other interconnects, and now it sounds quite different than what I was remembering. I realize everything we write here has almost no value, since a small change in the line might change our perception.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Switched back to my DH Labs Air Matrix interconnects, so need to do some more rolling. This time the Marconi EL32 + KT66. Tried this before, with the other interconnects, and now it sounds quite different than what I was remembering. *I realize everything we write here has almost no value, since a small change in the line might change our perception*.


@OctavianH it's still fun to vicariously accompany you on your journey, my friend!


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Switched back to my DH Labs Air Matrix interconnects, so need to do some more rolling. This time the Marconi EL32 + KT66. Tried this before, with the other interconnects, and now it sounds quite different than what I was remembering. I realize everything we write here has almost no value, since a small change in the line might change our perception.


You're absolutely right, Octavian, I've rediscovered the EL32 with various powers over the last couple weeks, I think it proves we should never right off a particular tube, you never know how a tube will react to those "small changes", also just rediscovered the EL3N  as well, don't ya just love tube rolling! .


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 11, 2020)

Let's hope I'll rediscover the EL3N because I have somewhere 8 pieces of them. I bought them for this "abomination" but never got to like them.






I always considered them too warm and with less detail than I expect. But maybe with 6550A or KT88 they might shine. At those times I did not had or knew about them. One of these double adapters broke, but I still have 2 pieces mounted in the single ones.

Later edit, forgot to ask:

I remember that some of you used several types of EL32 when the "EL mania" started. Besides these straight bottle I have, some of you tried Mullard or Valvo ones. Do you remember what difference was between them soundwise? I see that the straight bottle are very cheap on ebay, around 3 EUR/piece.


----------



## Scutey

Yeah my double adapters broke too, and like you, I was not that keen on on x6 EL3N. As for the EL32, I think I have most types, I have the straight, clear glass version plus the ST shape Mullards in clear and coated, to my ears the coated ST is the best sounding, warmish tone, slightly dark sounding, nicely detailed, good bass and soundstage, next clear glass ST, more neutral tone, a little clearer, wider, slightly reduced bass, and last straight bottle clear glass, a little thinner sounding, good detail, bass ok, neutral tone, still has a decent sound.


----------



## OctavianH

I have done my homework and tried EL3N, EL12N and EL32 with the 6550A. I have to say the EL tubes are a perfect complement for the 6550A but my favourite pairing was with EL32. My straight glass ones are missing some bass, but are a very nice complement. The only thing I have not done and remains on the "to do" list is the EL11. I wonder how EL11 would sound with 6550A.


----------



## hypnos1

OctavianH said:


> Switched back to my DH Labs Air Matrix interconnects, so need to do some more rolling. This time the Marconi EL32 + KT66. Tried this before, with the other interconnects, and now it sounds quite different than what I was remembering.* I realize everything we write here has almost no value, since a small change in the line might change our* *perception.*



Ah OH...therein lies our Achilles heel lol. The entire subject of 'hifi' audio is a minefield riddled with anomalies, contradictions, red herrings...not to mention downright misleading information (and that's being kind!! ). There are far too many folks who make bold, _unqualified_ statements about any part of equipment...or worse, denounce others' findings without even personal experience of them. The only truly valid statements that can be made of course are those that relate to one's own results in his/her system, and then pass on that knowledge for others to at least _try_, in the hope it may be helpful..._with no guarantees!_

Unfortunately, along with the aspect of component 'synergy', like it or not we all have differing levels of acuity in assessing what we hear - depending upon both our physiological makeup and the brain's _interpretation_...further complicated of course by personal preference when it comes to music (not forgetting the perceived price/'quality' phenomenon!). And then there's the _experience_ factor...before starting out on my tube amp journey a good few years ago now, I personally had little true understanding about what constituted really _good_ sound reproduction. But through extensive experimentation, along with the guidance and advice from those more experienced, I now appreciate this hobby of ours far more than I ever anticipated...albeit with a much reduced bank balance lol!!

And so in short, whatever we say on this subject does indeed have _some_ value OH...the trick is in sifting out what might be useful/applicable in one's own specific system! ...HAPPY LISTENING everyone...and GOOD LUCK!...CJ


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 16, 2020)

There's a time in life when tube rolling ends and beer rolling has to start.






I guess I'll start to listen to music based on what is written on my beer. I have also one called Transylvania after this one. Not bad for a Sunday afternoon.



Playlist for today:






I wonder if they made one for each album:


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> There's a time in life when tube rolling ends and beer rolling has to start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My afternoon listening started off a little more sombre, playing a tribute to Julian Bream who sadly passed this week. However the mood certainly changed when your recommendation hit the CD player. Anathema and Weather Systems, what an absolutely beautiful and emotionally charged CD. Thanks for pointing me in their direction. Looks like I'm a convert.😁


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 16, 2020)

barontan2418 said:


> My afternoon listening started off a little more sombre, playing a tribute to Julian Bream who sadly passed this week. However the mood certainly changed when your recommendation hit the CD player. Anathema and Weather Systems, what an absolutely beautiful and emotionally charged CD. Thanks for pointing me in their direction. Looks like I'm a convert.😁



I am very glad you like it. That album is quite good and Untouchable, Part 1 is one of the songs I use as a reference when evaluating a new pair of tubes. The acoustic guitar and the voice are very emotional, as you said, and we need to mention also the crystal clear production, which helps when you want to decide about your audio system. For sure, a top class album.

If you like that one I might dare to make you another recommendation in the polish progressive rock band Riverside:


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I guess I'll start to listen to music based on what is written on my beer. I have also one called Transylvania after this one. Not bad for a Sunday afternoon.



Glad you're enjoying the music, @OctavianH. I'm doing the same in my old guy way, fresh brewed coffee, and:


----------



## LoryWiv

barontan2418 said:


> My afternoon listening started off a little more sombre, playing a tribute to Julian Bream who sadly passed this week.


Following Segovia, Bream was in the next wave of masters. Definitely left an important and masterful legacy.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> There's a time in life when tube rolling ends and beer rolling has to start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice beer selection, as good as your tube selection, one question, did the beer make the music sound better, or did the music make the beer tastier?  .


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 18, 2020)

Scutey said:


> Nice beer selection, as good as your tube selection, one question, did the beer make the music sound better, or did the music make the beer tastier?  .



Hard to say, I guess I need more beer to decide 

Later edit: Well I guess this CD choice would please mr. @barontan2418


----------



## OctavianH

Today I tried the EL11 driving KT66. After searching in several boxes I've found my RFT EL11 and gave them a try. As expected, a very good combination, similar with EL32 but more towards neutral side. Not much, just a bit.






Unfortunately my experience was not as good with the adapters. I own 2 pairs of adapters, a chinese pair and one from Deyan. Unfortunately both have things I do not like. The ones made by Deyan broke after I used them 2 times, and I was not able to fix them by using some glue, and the chinese ones which seem to be more reliable, have a small PCB inside which I would prefer not to exist.






My recommendation to those who use Deyan's adapters would be to use an additional socket saver under them, otherwise they might break them like me.


----------



## antdroid

joined the club today.


----------



## OctavianH

antdroid said:


> joined the club today.



How is the pairing with Verite?


----------



## antdroid

OctavianH said:


> How is the pairing with Verite?



So far so good! I am so surprised how clean and low noise floor the Elise is for being an OTL!

I used to own the WA7 Fireflies with upgraded tubes setup and I think this beats it in terms of clarity and balance. When compared to the A90 Solid State below in the photo, the Elise is much smoother, while also having a bigger depth soundstage, which I think its a problem with the A90 in general (too forward, sharped edges).

Overall, I am quite happy so far. It also does sound well with the Arya, surprisingly. Takes the edge off of it a bit, but I'm ok with that.


----------



## OctavianH

Unfortunately some of us need to work during the weekend for our "beloved" companies. Thankfully working for me means sitting at my desk near Elise. And since this week I received a new box of CDs I have the chance to listen to the latest Paradise Lost album on CD.






By the way, incredible artwork.


----------



## OctavianH (Aug 26, 2020)

Valvo EL11, the nightmare of an OCD person. It is hard to find a pair with the same glass shape. I have 4 pieces and only 2 are identical, the rest are slightly different. Awful. I always liked symmetry.






Well, some of the best drivers Elise can have. Too warm for KT66 but I guess very nice to KT88 or 6550A. But about this I will see another time.

PS. If you observed that not even these 2 are identical, you have OCD


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> Valvo EL11, the nightmare of an OCD person. It is hard to find a pair with the same glass shape. I have 4 pieces and only 2 are identical, the rest are slightly different. Awful. I always liked symmetry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Observed. Guess I've got OCD. 😂


----------



## OctavianH

And what is really interesting is that the codes match, even if the glass is not exactly in the same shape. So same date codes, different glass. Incredible.


----------



## OctavianH

Some stuff to read about these amps:

Q&A with Łukasz Feliks of Feliks-Audio, by Marek Dyba (August 27, 2020)


----------



## Bonddam

Someone told me my purchase of Tung Sol 7236 was wrong. All I know about them they are hard to get so I bought from ebay the seller has 30 day return policy here is the link
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-5-PIE...dt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#rpdCntId

If someone could tell me why this was a bad purchase so I can give a good excuse to return thanks. These where purchased for Euphoria AE


----------



## OctavianH (Sep 6, 2020)

KT66 are incredible tubes. The guitar tone cannot be matched.



Hanneman times. RIP.


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> KT66 are incredible tubes. The guitar tone cannot be matched.
> 
> 
> 
> Hanneman times. RIP.



Do you ever feel the desire to buy a few spares just in case? know I do with the GEC KT88'S and EL39's when I see a bargain.😩


----------



## OctavianH (Sep 8, 2020)

barontan2418 said:


> Do you ever feel the desire to buy a few spares just in case? know I do with the GEC KT88'S and EL39's when I see a bargain.😩



I was lucky enough to find a local seller which sold me at a good price several GEC pairs. I have now 4 pairs of clear glass and one pair of grey glass. But indeed, we always have to buy GEC KT66 when we find, my amplifier sounds incredible with them.


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> I was lucky enough to find a local seller which sold me at a good price several GEC pairs. I have now 4 pairs of clear glass and one pair of grey glass. But indeed, we always have to buy GEC KT66 when we find, my amplifier sounds incredible with them.


Sounds like we're both sorted. You love your 66's and I 88's. Maybe the best thing to come out of the UK.


----------



## OctavianH

Well, indeed KT66 and KT88 are great stuff, but let's not forget Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath and other things.

By the way, a few minutes ago I was looking at this amp which works with KT88/KT120:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WBA-Virtus-01-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-KT120-TungSol/174391673697


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> Well, indeed KT66 and KT88 are great stuff, but let's not forget Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath and other things.
> 
> By the way, a few minutes ago I was looking at this amp which works with KT88/KT120:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WBA-Virtus-01-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-KT120-TungSol/174391673697


Interesting. Looks like it sells for £700 ish new. I'm saving for a zimmer frame so no cash to spare.😉


----------



## OctavianH

I don't think I'll buy it either. But it is an interesting amplifier.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> Well, indeed KT66 and KT88 are great stuff, but let's not forget Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath and other things.
> 
> By the way, a few minutes ago I was looking at this amp which works with KT88/KT120:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WBA-Virtus-01-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-KT120-TungSol/174391673697


I'm still looking for affordable GEC KT's in good condition, too, based on @OctavianH's  experience, Pretty happy for now though with my Ken-Rad 6V6 as powers driven by Brimar 6SN7. It's amazing how good this amp sounds with a wide variety of tubes!

As an aside, I bought a FiiO BTR5 for portable listening with IEM's and it's software has a setting to increase 2nd order harmonics, which in part is what gives tube amps their characteristic sound. It's certainly no match for Elise but makes the sound more euphonic for sure.


----------



## OctavianH (Sep 9, 2020)

It is interesting that you use the 6V6 as powers, for me if I go much under 4A I have a feeling of lack of tight bass on my 600 Ohm T1.2. So I always try to combine them to be around that value.


----------



## LoryWiv

I definitely know what you mean, and initially had that impression. But with a longer time in the socket (? biasing correctly) and warm drivers like the Brimars, I am absolutely loving this combo. and it feels neither bass-shy nor underpowered.


----------



## OctavianH

After I improved my power supply filtering I reached another level with Elise and the whole line. What I've done is described here and it does not make sense to mention again. I guess too many are neglecting the influence of the clean power supply and try to correct this via the tubes they are using. I've done this myself. Now I like to think I am doing the stuff in the right order, fixing first the power sources and then choosing the right tube combo. And yes, after all these changes I am really happy. I will not roll anything for some time and just enjoy. I can say I am rediscovering music.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> After I improved my power supply filtering I reached another level with Elise and the whole line. What I've done is described here and it does not make sense to mention again. I guess too many are neglecting the influence of the clean power supply and try to correct this via the tubes they are using. I've done this myself. Now I like to think I am doing the stuff in the right order, fixing first the power sources and then choosing the right tube combo. And yes, after all these changes I am really happy. I will not roll anything for some time and just enjoy. I can say I am rediscovering music.


Your power supply filtering skills greatly exceed anything I could do, but I did note an imprivement with the Furman. As for enjoying music, it's good to always remember what all of this gear is in service of. Glad you are in a good place with your kit, @OctavianH! I am as well.


----------



## OctavianH

Sunday, beerday. Trying some beers from the eastern side. And some Ozzy Osbourne, he never disappoints. GEC KT66 + GE 7581A.


----------



## Colozeus

Hello folks,
   Yesterday i received a feliks elise which was bought as an open box model which had apparently only been opened to have pictures taken. All appears well at first, but today i noticed that the left channel has an audible hum and what to my ears sounds like a lo volume high pitched sound. This becomes very audible on the left channel once you reach about the 11-12 oclock position. It's present even without any inputs plugged in. I thought it might be faulty tubes, but i swapped the tubes on left to the right and vice versa and the issue still persists. I also tried isolating power as an issue by making sure it's the only device plugged into the socket. My other amps don't experience this issue and this house is also brand new and does not have any gound issues (tested sockets with a tester) Has anybody else experienced this? I'm thinking i need to return this unit.


----------



## LoryWiv

Colozeus said:


> Hello folks,
> Yesterday i received a feliks elise which was bought as an open box model which had apparently only been opened to have pictures taken. All appears well at first, but today i noticed that the left channel has an audible hum and what to my ears sounds like a lo volume high pitched sound. This becomes very audible on the left channel once you reach about the 11-12 oclock position. It's present even without any inputs plugged in. I thought it might be faulty tubes, but i swapped the tubes on left to the right and vice versa and the issue still persists. I also tried isolating power as an issue by making sure it's the only device plugged into the socket. My other amps don't experience this issue and this house is also brand new and does not have any gound issues (tested sockets with a tester) Has anybody else experienced this? I'm thinking i need to return this unit.


I'm sorry too hear this. Some tube hum is common, may be microphonics as well but if you've swapped sides and the hum stays on original side that's ruled out. Did you buy it from Upscale Audio, the main U.S. distributor? If so they have a good reputation for service and before sending it back, perhaps they can help you troubleshoot by phone. Others on this or the Euforia forum may have other suggestions.

Good luck sorting this out. This is a terrific amp and I hope you get to the pure enjoyment phase soon!


----------



## Bob Ley

Hi everyone, I'm a new owner of the Elise (about 1+month), and use it with a RME-ADI-2 DAC, ZMF Verite, Auteur, HD800s and Sony MDR-Z1R.

No complaints about the sound with stock tubes but since I can't upgrade anymore equipment wise, wondering anyone's suggestions on different tubes that are available in the U.S.
Thanks!


----------



## LoryWiv

Hi @Bob Ley and congrats. There is a wealth of tube rolling information on this and the Euforia threads. Here on Head-fi there are also 6SN7 and 6AS7 threads. Peruse them and once you find a tube that interests, check EBay for that tube listed via a U.S. seller or one of the many U.S. based online tube vendors. if you are leery of vintage tubes there are some new production tubes some find pleasing as well (new Russian produced Tung Sol 6SN7GT or Genalex Gold Lion KT 66 / KT77 / KT88 w/adapters are all readily available in U.S. and I enjoyed them quite a while before "rolling on").

Indeed, the very 1st post of this thread has some good starting point information. Also see *here*. Good luck and enjoy!


----------



## Bob Ley

LoryWiv said:


> Hi @Bob Ley and congrats. There is a wealth of tube rolling information on this and the Euforia threads. Here on Head-fi there are also 6SN7 and 6AS7 threads. Peruse them and once you find a tube that interests, check EBay for that tube listed via a U.S. seller or one of the many U.S. based online tube vendors. if you are leery of vintage tubes there are some new production tubes some find pleasing as well (new Russian produced Tung Sol 6SN7GT or Genalex Gold Lion KT 66 / KT77 / KT88 w/adapters are all readily available in U.S. and I enjoyed them quite a while before "rolling on").
> 
> Indeed, the very 1st post of this thread has some good starting point information. Also see *here*. Good luck and enjoy!



Thanks so much for that reply. So overwhelming, don't know where to start. Any suggestions for a first try, not crazy $$, that may be an upgrade on the stock tubes just to get my feet wet?


----------



## OctavianH

Enjoying some late night Paradise Lost from Draconian Times album. After all, we have here a 25 years anniversary.


----------



## OctavianH

And yes, some weekend starting with the one and only Lemmy:



What to ask for more, than beer, chicks and heavy metal


----------



## LoryWiv

Mighty quiet in here.  I do have a question hopefully someone will see / answer. I am awaiting some powered, active speakers (Audioengine HD3) and plan to connect the Elise line out to the speaker's RCA inputs to get a little of that tube goodness, essentially using Elise as a preamp to enhance the HD3's built in amp. Will Elise automatically detect when headphones are plugged in and output to the headphone even if the line out is connected?I I suspect this is standard behavior but wanted to confirm before I make the connections. Appreciate any info., and hopefully all of us Feliksownders are safe, well and enjoying our amps so much that there's no time to post!


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 1, 2020)

I think you have here the answer:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fel...sheeps-clothing.831743/page-231#post-13584134
Elise and Euforia are the same in this regard.
I have not tried this function, I just remembered I read something about it. I hope it helps.

Regarding the thread, I was a little bit offtopic lately since I am not rolling or changing anything, I just come from time to time to stress people with some music.
However, I search for a replacement for T1.2, since T1.3 was released and it does not match my expectation, and T1.2 is discontinued, at the moment I am evaluating ZMF Verite Open and Audio-Technica ADX5000. But I will not buy anything soon, just when my T1.2 will start to dissintegrate or stop working.


----------



## LoryWiv

Thanks @OctavianH, sounds like it will work. BTW I am a ZMF fan, using Auteur as my primary HP and eying a Verite closed if upgraditis ever strike me hard.

Best, man!


----------



## OctavianH

Well, I just read about them, both have pros and cons, and since I listen to quite different stuff than the others, I have to study a little bit. Luckily my T1.2 are still in decent condition so I will have time to decide.


----------



## OctavianH

The best thing I could find for Elise.






Currently listening to Blind Guardian - Imaginations from the Other Side. It seems we have a lot of 25th anniversaries this year.


----------



## OctavianH

Just received this link from a friend:


I am not promoting anything, just share stuff for people. Sorry to be off topic lately to the Elise thread, I just listen to music and not rolling anything.


----------



## Bob Ley

Anyone have answers about how long it takes for new tubes to sound good?
I bought my Elise used and the previous owner said he had at least 50 hours on it so I liked the sound of the stock tubes. 
I did get the itch to roll tubes and whenever I get new tubes they don't sound good right away and I'm not excited to have to listen 50 hours to music that doesn't sound as good as it can. I just got a pair of Euphoria driver tubes today and they don't sound as good (yet) as the stock Elise tubes.
Does the burn-in requirement time have to be with music running through the amp, or can the amp just be turned on?
T
Thanks in advance...


----------



## shafat777

Just pulled the trigger on an Elise from Upscale audio to pair with my ZMF auteur and VC. If the comments and reviews are indeed true regarding its magical synergy with ZMF cans, this, along with my Headamp GS-X Mini and Cap modded LP should be my end game setup.


----------



## muths66

Does anyone know how much elise output power at 32ohm?


----------



## LoryWiv

muths66 said:


> Does anyone know how much elise output power at 32ohm?


Their website says 200 mW but doesn't specify at what impedance.


----------



## muths66

LoryWiv said:


> Their website says 200 mW but doesn't specify at what impedance.


ok thanks


----------



## Theoden00

Love my Elise but I feel like it's too neutral for a tube amp. Wish it added more warmth/fullness to my verites. Might be because of the tubes I have on it, any recommendations?


----------



## shafat777

I am also interested in any info regarding tube rolling with Elise. My amp should be here tomorrow and i will be mostly pairing it with my ZMF Auteur and VC. Not looking for anything insanely pricey. Something entry level to get a feel for the tubes and sound.


----------



## LoryWiv

Theoden00 said:


> Love my Elise but I feel like it's too neutral for a tube amp. Wish it added more warmth/fullness to my verites. Might be because of the tubes I have on it, any recommendations?


 I found that NOS RCA 6SN7 and new production Tung Sol 6SN7GTB were too warm for me, so they might be just right for you!


----------



## LoryWiv

shafat777 said:


> I am also interested in any info regarding tube rolling with Elise. My amp should be here tomorrow and i will be mostly pairing it with my ZMF Auteur and VC. Not looking for anything insanely pricey. Something entry level to get a feel for the tubes and sound.


I have been using Elise driving Auteur for 1 1/2 years, feel free to PM me. For starting out though, stock tubes to assess what you like and what you may wish to modify sound-wise is a good approach.


----------



## shafat777

Will do, as soon as i m done getting the initial impression of the stock tubes and the sound signature, I will let you know.

Thanks


----------



## Theoden00

LoryWiv said:


> I found that NOS RCA 6SN7 and new production Tung Sol 6SN7GTB were too warm for me, so they might be just right for you!


I am currently running the tung sols on my elise. Do you think my power tubes are affecting this?


----------



## OctavianH

Theoden00 said:


> I am currently running the tung sols on my elise. Do you think my power tubes are affecting this?



If what you want is bass, you might take a look on a pair of RCA 6AS7G like these:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Vintag...Vacuum-Tubes-Tested-Guaranteed-2/174481586741

Of course, search to find a better price, I guess you might obtain a pair at around 50 USD.


----------



## LoryWiv

Theoden00 said:


> I am currently running the tung sols on my elise. Do you think my power tubes are affecting this?


As a general rule drivers make more impact on sound than powers, but like all rules YMMV. IMHO, all the components affect sound signature.With "bright" output (power) tubes or an analytic headphone, the TS's may be just right. I actually thought they were one of the more pleasant new production tubes I've tried, just a little "syrupy" / less crisp than I wanted. But if you like that signature they are really good tubes, very musical and non-fatiguing.


----------



## Theoden00

OctavianH said:


> If what you want is bass, you might take a look on a pair of RCA 6AS7G like these:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Vintag...Vacuum-Tubes-Tested-Guaranteed-2/174481586741
> 
> Of course, search to find a better price, I guess you might obtain a pair at around 50 USD.


I will try it out and let you know, any other recommendations for my I guess mid range fullness?


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 17, 2020)

I bought recently a pair of Audio Technica ADX5000 which is a very interesting headphone. I would call it a "chameleon" which changes a lot with interconnects and tubes. So I started to make some rolling.


----------



## shafat777

Received my Elise on Friday. Been running/ burned-in for about 20 hours. The amp came with stock PSVane tubes for both driver and power. I have only used my Verite Closed and Auteurs so far and the results are as follows. 

Theres plenty of everything, bass, treble, mids, vocals. This amp has it all. True tubey sound. . I am comparing the sound to my GS-X mini with the same headphones. The mini sounds crisper with punchier bass. The elise lack a bit of soundstage but makes up for it with its holographic presentation. The stock tubes sound wonderful so far (i have nothing else to compare to), however i would like some suggestion in regards of tube rolling. I can use some tighter, punchier bass with my elise as well as some mid, vocal enhancement. I prefer mid bass to be present, but not forward. 

Any tips would be appreciated.


----------



## OctavianH

Since my T1.2 were discontinued and my pair started to have small signs of wear, I started to search for a worthy replacement. As you know, first try was ADX5000 a few posts before. But today I made the second and final try to find my endgame headphone, a true successor for the T1.2. So yeap, please welcome ZMF Verite Open.









The synergy with Elise is incredible, as expected. Match made in heaven. My quest is done, I do not need another headphone until I die.


----------



## antdroid

OctavianH said:


> Since my T1.2 were discontinued and my pair started to have small signs of wear, I started to search for a worthy replacement. As you know, first try was ADX5000 a few posts before. But today I made the second and final try to find my endgame headphone, a true successor for the T1.2. So yeap, please welcome ZMF Verite Open.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice! I love the Elise + Verite Open combo too!


----------



## shafat777

antdroid said:


> Nice! I love the Elise + Verite Open combo too!



Been running a VC and a brand new ellise for about a week. What kinda tube are you rolling? Mind sharing your secret?


----------



## antdroid

shafat777 said:


> Been running a VC and a brand new ellise for about a week. What kinda tube are you rolling? Mind sharing your secret?



I use stock power tubes, but using PSVANE CV181-TIII tubes (same ones that come with euforia) for driver tubes. I havent gone down the tube rolling rabbit hole too much.


----------



## shafat777

Sweet. Thanks man. I feel like thats a good place to start. Is the sound amy different/better with the cv181 TII better than stock 6n7s tubes?


----------



## OctavianH

antdroid said:


> Nice! I love the Elise + Verite Open combo too!



What pads are you using?



shafat777 said:


> Been running a VC and a brand new ellise for about a week. What kinda tube are you rolling? Mind sharing your secret?



I use here KT66 as powers + 7581A as drivers, exactly as before, with T1.2.


----------



## shafat777

OctavianH said:


> I use here KT66 as powers + 7581A as drivers, exactly as before, with T1.2.



Which brand of KT66 and 7581A are you using?


----------



## OctavianH (Oct 24, 2020)

shafat777 said:


> Which brand of KT66 and 7581A are you using?



I use GEC KT66 and GE 7581A. However, be aware that you need adapters to use these types of tubes.
You can find on Ebay here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-6...er-adapter-For-Elise-Euroria-amp/193142155772

An advice from my side would be, before spending the amount needed for NOS tubes, you can try a pair of russian new production to have an ideea if you will like them.

You can find much cheaper remakes of Genalex KT66:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-2-Genalex-Gold-Lion-KT66-tubes-Russia/203110435103

Here some remakes of Genalex KT77:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-2-Genalex-Gold-Lion-KT77-tubes-Russia/174355770734

For 7581A you can try some remakes like these ones:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/7581A-TUNG-SOL-Matched-pair-made-in-RUSSIA/293361984245

Depending on your preference, you can try also KT88 / KT 120 / KT150, for example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-2-Genalex-Gold-Lion-KT88-6550-tubes-Russia/184426295541

If you will like something from these, you can go further and buy the NOS versions which are superior, but much more expenssive.

For the, let's say, standard types of tubes, you find a lot of information on the first post of this thread, just look there and you will find some information.

It is very hard to give an advice of what to choose, it depends on the rest of the system, of the musical genres you listen and in the end of the personal perception. But I would say if you start with these, or a part of them, you are on a good track.


----------



## shafat777

Your GECs are simply gorgeous. Thats the ultimate goal. However, for now, i am gonna stick to cheaper tubes to start with. Do you have any recommendation about tubes that dont need adapters? I would like to play with native tubes before i jump on to adapters.


----------



## OctavianH

shafat777 said:


> Your GECs are simply gorgeous. Thats the ultimate goal. However, for now, i am gonna stick to cheaper tubes to start with. Do you have any recommendation about tubes that dont need adapters? I would like to play with native tubes before i jump on to adapters.



Can you please tell me what type of sound are you looking for? Or what would you like to achieve?


----------



## shafat777 (Oct 24, 2020)

With the stock tubes (psvane driver 6sn7 and powers 6n13s) I find the bass to be bloated and not punchy enough. The mid bass seems a little recessed. Also, i could really use a little clear/crispness in the highs as well. My VC, compared to my GSX-mini, sounds a little closed with the ELISE.

I have a pair of 1970 RCA 6AS7G tubes on the way. 

Also PM'ed


----------



## OctavianH

I answered your PM. For the others, if you are at the beginning and want to know more, this is a useful link:
https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=663.msg30393#msg30393
I used this one in the past, and the tubes described there are compatible with Elise.


----------



## antdroid

OctavianH said:


> What pads are you using?
> 
> 
> 
> I use here KT66 as powers + 7581A as drivers, exactly as before, with T1.2.



I primarily use BE2 Hybrid pads. If I want a warmer sound, then I'll use Verite Suede pads. These arent available to buy for some reason though. I got them from Zach directly.


----------



## OctavianH

antdroid said:


> I primarily use BE2 Hybrid pads. If I want a warmer sound, then I'll use Verite Suede pads. These arent available to buy for some reason though. I got them from Zach directly.



I have only the Universe and Verite pads and at the moment I stick on Universe pads. As far as I know the BE2 are somewhere between the Verite and Universe, on the path from neutral to warm.


----------



## Scutey

Finally got around to buying a hp I've been interested in for some time now, the ZMF Auteur, almost as sexy as my good friend @OctavianH Verite's  . It's taken me more than a week to get my head around these as they are much more neutral than my normal well worn T1.2's, they are now starting to sing and they sound great through Elise, especially in this combo of Brimar 6V6 and Gold Lion KT88.


----------



## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> Finally got around to buying a hp I've been interested in for some time now, the ZMF Auteur, almost as sexy as my good friend @OctavianH Verite's  . It's taken me more than a week to get my head around these as they are much more neutral than my normal well worn T1.2's, they are now starting to sing and they sound great through Elise, especially in this combo of Brimar 6V6 and Gold Lion KT88.


Elise / Auteur has been my go to for 1 1/2 years and each time I stray I return to it. My Elise was in for repair, just got it back and it is indeed such a fine amp. driving Auteur. I also like GL KT88 as powers and 6V6 drivers. Currently using some newly acquired GEC 6080 powers and Fivre 6V6 drivers ---> exquisite. These tubes provide a touch of warmth and sweetness, yet as you point out nothing is overly colored too stray to far from Auteur's neutral presentation and fidelity to source. The only area where I find Auteur may interject it's own character is in slightly forward mids, but in a wonderful, liquid, euphonic manner. Enjoy, @Scutey!


----------



## Scutey

Thanks @LoryWiv I will!, at first I found them rather bright, and a bit shouty in the mids, of course they're not but after the T1.2 that was how they sounded, but with smoother tubes and head burn in I am now getting used to them. I bet those GEC sound good, not at all jealous!   , btw how do the fivre 6v6 sound?, I have a pair of the Brimars and they are rather good.


----------



## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> Thanks @LoryWiv I will!, at first I found them rather bright, and a bit shouty in the mids, of course they're not but after the T1.2 that was how they sounded, but with smoother tubes and head burn in I am now getting used to them. I bet those GEC sound good, not at all jealous!   , btw how do the fivre 6v6 sound?, I have a pair of the Brimars and they are rather good.


Hi @Scutey. Still getting to know the Fivre 6V6 but 1st impression is well-balanced, just slightly north of neutral, treble still extended, just presented smoothly. And don't be too jealous, one of the 1st GEC 6080's I received not only blew as soon as I tried it but it took my amp down with it....it was a pain to ship it and wait but Upscale Audio was great on the repair. Happy to have Elise back!


----------



## LoryWiv

GEC 6080 in Elise, drivers are Fivre 6V6. Terrific combo. with lot's of detail but still oh so musical. Loving every minute!


----------



## OctavianH

I never understood the 6080 tubes. Maybe in the future I'll decide to give them a second chance.


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> Hi @Scutey. Still getting to know the Fivre 6V6 but 1st impression is well-balanced, just slightly north of neutral, treble still extended, just presented smoothly. And don't be too jealous, one of the 1st GEC 6080's I received not only blew as soon as I tried it but it took my amp down with it....it was a pain to ship it and wait but Upscale Audio was great on the repair. Happy to have Elise back!


Thanks for the info, sounds like they're very similar to my Brimars, might check out the Fivre. Sorry to hear about your amp, that must have been a real bummer, I've had a couple tubes go but without any damage to my amp, don't know what I'd do if mine went down, especially of an evening, I'd probably have to talk to the mrs! .


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Thanks for the info, sounds like they're very similar to my Brimars, might check out the Fivre. Sorry to hear about your amp, that must have been a real bummer, I've had a couple tubes go but without any damage to my amp, don't know what I'd do if mine went down, especially of an evening, I'd probably have to talk to the mrs! .



I bet she would appreciate that. 



LoryWiv said:


> Hi @Scutey. Still getting to know the Fivre 6V6 but 1st impression is well-balanced, just slightly north of neutral, treble still extended, just presented smoothly. And don't be too jealous, one of the 1st GEC 6080's I received not only blew as soon as I tried it but it took my amp down with it....it was a pain to ship it and wait but Upscale Audio was great on the repair. Happy to have Elise back!



Did you had the chance to try other brands of 6080? I have here around 3 pairs, 2 Mullard and one Philips, all looking the same. I never liked them in any way. I would be curious to know of the GEC 6080 is different than the Mullard and what would be that difference.


----------



## LoryWiv (Oct 29, 2020)

OctavianH said:


> I bet she would appreciate that.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you had the chance to try other brands of 6080? I have here around 3 pairs, 2 Mullard and one Philips, all looking the same. I never liked them in any way. I would be curious to know of the GEC 6080 is different than the Mullard and what would be that difference.


I did try Thomson 6080's previously which were ok but nothing special. Comparatively, the GEC's brings out more microdetail, offer beautiful overall tone, and are very balanced across the frequencies with just the right touch touch of warmth. These beats the pants off of 6AS7G's I have tried and are similar to the good technicalities I find with new production GL KT88's but more musical / euphonic. 6080's do run hot, so I'm using socket savers to raise them off chassis a bit.

The only other I may want to try is a Bendix 6080, graphite plate but I think I'll just enjoy what I have for a while.

Hope that helps, @OctavianH.


----------



## OctavianH

All 6080 are running hot. Mine are the same.


----------



## MRHiFiReviews

Have a little over 20 hours of burn-in on the stock Tubes so far, quick iPhone Shot..... I am hoping the stock tubes after another 20-30 hours sound a bit more dynamic and present a richer sound.  Any feedback on the stock tubes from other owners?


----------



## LoryWiv (Nov 1, 2020)

MRphotography said:


> Have a little over 20 hours of burn-in on the stock Tubes so far, quick iPhone Shot..... I am hoping the stock tubes after another 20-30 hours sound a bit more dynamic and present a richer sound.  Any feedback on the stock tubes from other owners?


You are  right not to judge too quickly and they will improve, but main benefit of burning in 50 hours or so is to assess what you do and don't like about stock tube's sound. That way if / when you decide to tube roll you will have a better idea what improvements you seek and what tubes may be most likely to produce the desired changes.

BTW, congrats, it is a freaking great amp. and only gets better. Listening to mine as I type, 18 months of ownership, and it still gives me big joy.


----------



## MRHiFiReviews (Nov 1, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> You are  right not to judge too quickly and they will improve, but main benefit of burning in 50 hours or so is to assess what you do and don't want to like about stock tube's sound. That way if / when you decide to tube roll you will have a better idea what improvements you seek and what tubes may be most likely to produce the desired changes.
> 
> BTW, congrats, it is a freaking great amp. and only gets better. Listening to mine as I type, 18 months of ownership, and it still gives me big joy.


Thanks for the quick response!  I will give it another 30 hours or so, I generally like a bit warmer than neutral with punchy sub/mid-bass, richer overall euphonic sound, lush mid-range, and open/accurate staging I am going to be pairing with ZMF Aeolus, Verite Open mostly I also have the RAD-0 but I doubt it will play nice with them.  Any thoughts on Tubes to bring the amp closer to my desired sound if the stock tubes won't?


----------



## Scutey

MRphotography said:


> Thanks for the quick response!  I will give it another 30 hours or so, I generally like a bit warmer than neutral with punchy sub/mid-bass, richer overall euphonic sound, lush mid-range, and open/accurate staging I am going to be pairing with ZMF Aeolus, Verite Open mostly I also have the RAD-0 but I doubt it will play nice with them.  Any thoughts on Tubes to bring the amp closer to my desired sound if the stock tubes won't?


I would agree with @LoryWiv re burning in before you come to any firm conclusions, stock is ok but the great thing about Elise is it's a tube rollers dream, the number of great combos is huge. Two conventional set ups worth looking at are Tung Sol 5998 for powers and RCS 6SN7/GT, or VT231, this will give you most if not all of what you're looking for, and Sylvania made some great old stock tubes too, failing that KT tubes, like the KT66/77/88, (with adapters), one I thing would recommend is just going through this thread, the wealth of info here is huge and invaluable, good luck!.


----------



## OctavianH (Nov 1, 2020)

When you are brave enough to try Verite Open with a silver cable, you need to warm and relax things a little bit with the help of the tubes.

Tung Sol 5998 + Marconi EL32





Or, why not, some EL11:


----------



## MakubexGB

MRphotography said:


> Thanks for the quick response!  I will give it another 30 hours or so, I generally like a bit warmer than neutral with punchy sub/mid-bass, richer overall euphonic sound, lush mid-range, and open/accurate staging I am going to be pairing with ZMF Aeolus, Verite Open mostly I also have the RAD-0 but I doubt it will play nice with them.  Any thoughts on Tubes to bring the amp closer to my desired sound if the stock tubes won't?


Looking forward to your opinions on it, especially with the Verite. Would you happen to have a bright headphone? Especially a Hifiman Arya or Ananda? I've been eyeballing this amp (among other tube amps) to use with my Arya and Elegia.


----------



## MRHiFiReviews

MakubexGB said:


> Looking forward to your opinions on it, especially with the Verite. Would you happen to have a bright headphone? Especially a Hifiman Arya or Ananda? I've been eyeballing this amp (among other tube amps) to use with my Arya and Elegia.



I just sold my Ananda!! I can probably get an Arya in for review soon.


----------



## Scutey

Time for more tubes!. Not tried this one before, NOS Ken Rad 6V6GT, really nice tube, a bit livelier and tighter than the 6V6G version, and with a slightly more neutral tone, also has more extension top and bottom, a really nice tube.


----------



## LoryWiv (Nov 27, 2020)

@Scutey I have the GEC 6V6G you mention above, like them a lot as drivers:


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> @Scutey I have the GEC 6V6G you mention above, like them a lot as drivers:


Yes I like the Brimar too, a lovely tube. I had been meaning to try the GT version for a while, wondered what differences there might be between the two types, the KR, to my ears, is tighter, just not sure how much of that is the GT shape bottle and how much is due to them being Ken Rad, also it pairs really well with the GEC KT66.


----------



## OctavianH

I have a feeling that the GEC 6V6G of @LoryWiv are the same as the Brimar 6V6G of @Scutey and also match mine. From the pictures I see no difference.
Mine are rebranded Tronix, but the seller had a lot of GEC to sale, so they might be GEC? I found identical ones labelled as Brimar on Ebay. So I have no idea, but I like them a lot and I was lucky to find 2 pairs in excellent condition. One of the best drivers I ever had the chance to listen and I am very glad that others are appreciating them.


----------



## OctavianH

I've put my Verites to rest and returned to T1. What an incredible headphone.




Everytime I return to T1.2 I get that "wow" feeling. And it is a good day for music because today is:


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I've put my Verites to rest and returned to T1. What an incredible headphone.
> 
> Everytime I return to T1.2 I get that "wow" feeling. And it is a good day for music because today is:


I couldn't agree more, lol nice one saw that meme today too, love it!.


----------



## OctavianH

You caught me, half of the reason to post was that meme. It's brilliant.


----------



## Colozeus

Question for Elise owners here that run quad Gold Lion kt88's, I recently purchased adapters from Deyan and a set of matched quads. With this quad setup, I notice what sounds like a ground hum in the background. I'm in a new house and I've already checked to make sure all grounds are good. Also tried a power conditioner and the hum is still present. It hums with nothing plugged into the input or output of the amp. The only culprit left to isolate is to relocate the amp away from my LCD screen and other electronics. Any thoughts?


----------



## LoryWiv

Colozeus said:


> Question for Elise owners here that run quad Gold Lion kt88's, I recently purchased adapters from Deyan and a set of matched quads. With this quad setup, I notice what sounds like a ground hum in the background. I'm in a new house and I've already checked to make sure all grounds are good. Also tried a power conditioner and the hum is still present. It hums with nothing plugged into the input or output of the amp. The only culprit left to isolate is to relocate the amp away from my LCD screen and other electronics. Any thoughts?


I ran the same GL KT88 quad with adapters from Deyan for several months, have since sold 2 of them as prefer KT88's as powers. but to my recall never noted a hum. Agree with your plan to maximize distance from any source of interference, as this is not  likely "normal" or intrinsic to this setup..


----------



## MRHiFiReviews (Dec 3, 2020)

Would love to hang with you all and have you join us this Friday at 7 pm PST for a laidback live chat about the Feliks Elise and Zmf Pendant, two awesome amplifiers!


----------



## OctavianH

Well, 4 new folks joined my army:





The first impressions are promising. Since these were not new I expect they alredy reached maturity. And indeed, these are not as warm as the Brimar/GEC 6V6G the others posted a few days ago, but are quite detailed and with a very good extension on high frequencies.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Well, 4 new folks joined my army:
> 
> 
> 
> The first impressions are promising. Since these were not new I expect they alredy reached maturity. And indeed, these are not as warm as the Brimar/GEC 6V6G the others posted a few days ago, but are quite detailed and with a very good extension on high frequencies.


Those look really nice tube @OctavianH, you would seem to have a bargain there, enjoy!


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Those look really nice tube @OctavianH, you would seem to have a bargain there, enjoy!



They were a bargain at the price I paid for them, but they had also around 75-85% of the NOS value. Anyway, it was a good catch. However, using them with KT66 and VO I feel I would like to have more bass. For T1.2 these I guess should be perfect. I will try later.


----------



## OctavianH

I've rearranged things a little bit.





Then I've prepared for Christmas.





Happy Holidays everyone!


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> I've rearranged things a little bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And a happy Christmas to you. All looking very tidy.😜


----------



## OctavianH

Well, at least I'm trying. Ho ho ho!


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I've rearranged things a little bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice!, looks like someone's going to have a good Christmas, cheers!


----------



## Scutey

Well I've got an early Christmas present, a Cambridge CXC CD transport, works really well with my Elise, gives clear, clean and detailed, natural sound, all I need now to celebrate with one of @OctavianH beers!!

Happy Christmas everyone, here's to a better 2021.


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Well I've got an early Christmas present, a Cambridge CXC CD transport, works really well with my Elise, gives clear, clean and detailed, natural sound, all I need now to celebrate with one of @OctavianH beers!!
> 
> Happy Christmas everyone, here's to a better 2021.



I am quite pleased about the CXC, via optical. But I have to admit that 90% of the time I prefer to listen to the digital collection. It is much more comfortable.
This makes me thinking about the guys with vinyl systems which have to change all the time the discs...


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, Grinch stole the Christmas?


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, Grinch stole the Christmas?


Did Santa steal your beer?


----------



## OctavianH

Hmm, well... I guess this song caused it.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, well... I guess this song caused it.



Lol nice one


----------



## OctavianH

A Heavy Metal Christmas to everyone!


----------



## barontan2418

Wishing all a Happy Christmas and a musical New Year. Take care and be safe.🍺🥃🍺


----------



## shafat777

Is anyone running Svetlana Winged Cs as power tubes? If so, what driver tubes are you guys using?


----------



## barontan2418

Pair of Tung Sol 5998's  on ebay Nos if anybody wants to treat themselves, for €200. Not a bad price.


----------



## OctavianH

KT66?


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> KT66?



Nice find, @OctavianH. Subtle differences. EL34 sound a bit more "raw" / less refined,, but are very musical / emotional. KT66 a bit smoother, "mature" sounding but still euphonic. Tough to tell with YouTuve clip,,really could be placebo they are so close.

BTW are EL34's even compatible with Elise using Deyan's 6L6 adapters? I had thought they were not.


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> BTW are EL34's even compatible with Elise using Deyan's 6L6 adapters? I had thought they were not.



Well, there is a discussion here but the adapters are the chinese ones. As far as I know EL34 cannot be used with Deyan's adapters.


----------



## OctavianH

Today's evening mood. Let's hope 2021 will bring us new experiences and make us enjoy more our amps.


----------



## OctavianH (Jan 8, 2021)

And if you like this, you have more details here:


----------



## shafat777

Deyan just sent me his adapters for my elise. I have a set of gold lion kt88 power tubes coming up next week. Any other recommendations? For now, I'm only messing with the power tubes, currently, Im using a pair of sylvania Vt231 tubes as drivers and a set of pavane cv181 t2 gold tubes as back up. Any info would be helpful. Thank you


----------



## LoryWiv (Jan 9, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> Deyan just sent me his adapters for my elise. I have a set of gold lion kt88 power tubes coming up next week. Any other recommendations? For now, I'm only messing with the power tubes, currently, Im using a pair of sylvania Vt231 tubes as drivers and a set of pavane cv181 t2 gold tubes as back up. Any info would be helpful. Thank you


I think you will find a nice increase in detail, clarity and balance with the GL KT88 versus stock, and I have used them with Sylvania VT231 with excellent results.

While the GL KT88's may not compete with NOS (someday I will break open my piggy bank and spring for NOS GEC KT88 or the Genalex KT66 @OctavianH raves about), they are an excellent 1st foray to evaluate the power tune versatility of Elise. I still turn to them often for their "no weaknesses" balance and clean tone. Some have actually run a quad of these and enjoyed it, or GL KT88 powers with GL KT77 drivers ( I believe @connieflyer on the Euforia thread was very please with these, although he has now moved on to GU50's thgat require external heater, brave man that he is).

If you want to go NOS rather than new production, one less expensive 'sleeper" option is GE 7581A. Definitely warmer than GL KT88, but not "sloppy" warm, and the only GE tube I've ever tried that earned a place in the rotation. The same Deyan adapters used for KT88 work nicely with 7581A. Mine are black base, *here* is a brown base option.

Conversely, if you seek a brighter, analytic NOS power consider the Sylvania 6550 (KT88 family). I enjoy these paired with warmer drivers. The ones *here* seem a bit overpriced but they appear to perhaps be Sylvania Gold Brand which are "premium" and perhaps worth more, You can ask the seller or even negotiate if he / she is willing.

Fun times ahead, @shaffaaf27. As they say on head-fi "sorry about your wallet".


----------



## shafat777

@LoryWiv 

How do these gl kt88 power tubes compare against tungsol 6080? Those are the ones im running now along side my sylvania vt231 as drivers


----------



## LoryWiv (Jan 9, 2021)

The only 6080's I have are GEC, so can't comment on the Tung Sol.


----------



## OctavianH

It is very hard to give an advice because everything sounds different depending on the rest of the chain, the headphone and personal preference. I can say only that I like the GEC KT66 as @LoryWiv mentioned with the GE 7581A as drivers for some of my headphones. But I prefer the Tung Sol 5998 and PsVane CV181T2 for other headphone. And I prefer some headphone cables with some tubes and I also have different interconnects which for me make a difference. This is why I avoid to give advices, I think each one has to try on his own. What I can say is what others enjoyed and favourite combos were:
- KT88 as powers + KT88 as drivers (quad)
- KT88 as powers + KT77 as drivers
I also consider very good as drivers:
- the RCA 7N7 (with adapters)
- the Ken-Rad 6F8G (with adapters)
As power tubes, besides what was mentioned:
- Tung Sol 7236 which are the most neutral ones
Of course these are personal preferences, I am not expecting to apply to everyone. For me 6080 never worked. I have 3 pairs of them but always considered them harsh. It seems those are picky with drivers, and maybe I have to try them with something I consider sweeter as EL32. I do not know if I will ever do that.


----------



## connieflyer

As others have mentioned here, the KT88's are great tubes.  I have run a quad of KT66, Quad of KT88's with KT77 as driver, a pair of KT 88 and GU50 as power with KT77 as drivers and many other combo's .  They all offer a difference in sound, I personally liked the KT 88 and GU50 as power with KT77 the best out of these. I ran a quad of GU50's and that was very nice as well, but now running a six pack of GU50's, the biggest change I have seen (or heard!) is the increase in clarity. I no longer run the 6AS7 tubes or 6080, and sold my 5998's awhile ago.  Great tube but preferred others more.  The only 6080 type I still roll is the Aero Gold 5998A with the Aero Gold 6sn7's.  As far as the way it looks, it is a personal thing. I like it, but others may not. I was an early adopter of the Elise, and the Euforia sn 0005, and rolled many combonations, but this AE version is just a step up the ladder from what I am hearing. Was it worth the extra to go from Euforia to the AE version?  To me it was. I am happy with it, using the Senn 800 and Oppo PM1 phones. Will I continue to roll tubes? Probably, but I doubt if I will try new tubes, as I have so  many tube combos already, I will try mixing and matching tubes that I already have.  I have many excellent 6sn7 that I have not included in the mix, as well as other combos.  I look at the tube cabinets and start to count the different combos and then go back and listen to more music, as the number of possible combos is getting quite large!


----------



## OctavianH (Jan 9, 2021)

Just received a very nice recommendation for this stoner rock band and honestly I do not think there is a better power tube than KT66 for this genre.
I armed myself with a few bottles of Warsteiner for this trip, beer which reminds me of a period in my life when I was often travelling to Germany with Lufthansa.



Well, it seems the flight to Venus is also operated by Star Alliance.


----------



## OctavianH

It is too silence here guys. Am I the last one on Earth using Elise?


----------



## shafat777

KT88 GOLD LION w/ Sylvania VT231


----------



## OctavianH

Those Sylvania VT-231 look very interesting tubes. I have only RCA and Ken-Rad VT-231 but are very special tubes for me. Both different, but still great sounding.


----------



## shafat777

I also wondered about the ken rads. The VT231 compliments my kt88s really well. The kt is a little warm power tube. But very clean, tight bass. The Slyvania is mid and treble heavy with neutral low end so these two sound very well together. Right now I have the Elise hooked up to my Ares 2 and its producing the best sound Ive ever heard coming out of any of my headphones, no joke. I used to own a D90 and that dac sounded lifeless compared to the Ares 2. So I sold the D90. Only caveat is that the Ares 2 can do only one output at a time, rca or xlr. The D90 could do this simultaneously. So now i have a Bifrost 2 en route for wednesday delivery. Ive heard BF2 and Elise is really well, so i m gonna have to do some comparing once i get it. Most likely i ll use the Ares 2 with the Elise because of the R2R wide soundstage of the Ares 2. the Bf2 is more cleaner so it should pair well with my GSX-mini.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> It is too silence here guys. Am I the last one on Earth using Elise?


Still here too, at the moment I'm using GEC KT66/Brimar 6V6G, still sounds great!. .


----------



## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> Still here too, at the moment I'm using GEC KT66/Brimar 6V6G, still sounds great!. .


Variations on a theme, @Scutey. GEC KT88 (newly acquired) / Ken Rad 6V6GT for Elise and I tonight. A true pleasure.


----------



## barontan2418

LoryWiv said:


> Variations on a theme, @Scutey. GEC KT88 (newly acquired) / Ken Rad 6V6GT for Elise and I tonight. A true pleasure.


Those GEC KT88's brought me to my final destination Scutey, driven by GU50's in Elise. Euforia is running on again GEC KT88 's (the TT22 variety) paired with GU50's in the power slot and driven be Valvo EL11's. Having built up a good number of spares of the four above mentioned tubes I'm quite content now to just roll the occasional drivers. You all stay safe.


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> Variations on a theme, @Scutey. GEC KT88 (newly acquired) / Ken Rad 6V6GT for Elise and I tonight. A true pleasure.





barontan2418 said:


> Those GEC KT88's brought me to my final destination Scutey, driven by GU50's in Elise. Euforia is running on again GEC KT88 's (the TT22 variety) paired with GU50's in the power slot and driven be Valvo EL11's. Having built up a good number of spares of the four above mentioned tubes I'm quite content now to just roll the occasional drivers. You all stay safe.


Not in the least bit jealous of you both owning GEC KT88 ... much , how do they sound in Elise?


----------



## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> Not in the least bit jealous of you both owning GEC KT88 ... much , how do they sound in Elise?


Really fine balance of musicality and "hi fi" / technical prowess. Just rolled in Sylvania VT-115A (6L6 equivalent) drivers and the string quartet is performing Haydn in my living room!


----------



## skor (Jan 30, 2021)

I am on the market to purchase an Elise to pair with my new ZMF VC and was talking to the folks at Zepplin & Co. in Singapore. They are saying that Feliks Audio is coming out with a 2021 edition of the Elise and it will be announced within the next couple of months and advised me to hold off buying one until then as the 2021 edition will come with several of the power supply refinements for quieter operation trickled down from the Euforia.  Has anyone else heard this?


----------



## OctavianH (Jan 30, 2021)

skor said:


> I am on the market to purchase an Elise to pair with my new ZMF VC and was talking to the folks at Zepplin & Co. in Singapore. They are saying that Feliks Audio is coming out with a 2021 edition of the Elise and it will be announced within the next couple of months and advised me to hold off buying one until then as the 2021 edition will come with several of the power supply refinements for quieter operation trickled down from the Euforia.  Has anyone else heard this?



I have not heard but I cannot say I am surprised since they already upgraded the Echo here.


----------



## LoryWiv (Jan 31, 2021)

I am sure the 2021 Elise revision will be stellar, but here in the present I am so happy with my 2019 Elise. Rolled in my best tube set yet: Late 1950's GEC KT88 powers driven by mid-1940's Sylvania VT-107A (6V6GT). Everything I throw at it sounds just right. A great Sunday of listening before the work week resumes helps my well-being quite a lot!


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> I am sure the 2021 Elise revision will be stellar, but here in the present I am so happy with my 2019 Elise. Rolled in my best tube set yet: Late 1950's GEC KT88 powers driven by mid-1940's Sylvania VT-107A (6V6GT). Everything I throw at it sounds just right. A great Sunday of listening before the work week resumes helps my well-being quite a lot!


I bet they sound great as well as looking great, I'm sure there's a pair of those GEC KT88 somewhere at a bargain price with my name on them! , and the way things are I need a daily dose of Elise to keep me just about sane .


----------



## LoryWiv

Listening to the live stream below with Elise (GEC KT88 / Sylvania VT-107A) shows what tuneful, tight and musical bass should sound like...slam with finesse! Not too shabby on the harp's sweet mids and clarion highs either. Great marriage of gear and music!


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> I am sure the 2021 Elise revision will be stellar, but here in the present I am so happy with my 2019 Elise.



This month my Elise model 2018 will have its 3rd birthday. I have no idea if it has something different from the model 2019.
It worked flawlessly for 3 years and it still does. I will not think about differences between mine and model 2021 since I do not know the price of it.
As we know, during the time, F.A. improved the amps but also raised the price. If only power supply noise is the improvement, with my power filtering I am fine.
But yes, power supply filtering improved my Elise, so I expect the model from 2021 will sound better than older ones for people not using separate power conditioners.


----------



## Scutey

Well mine's the 2017 model, so I guess there might be a noticeable difference compared to a 2021 model, I would certainly like to hear one, however I'm perfectly satisfied with my early Elise, like your's @OctavianH, better tubes, a power conditioner and decent cables have improved the sound hugely, and I'm still enjoying it! .


----------



## OctavianH

Elise during weekend.


----------



## shafat777

OctavianH said:


> Elise during weekend.


Beautiful set of tubes. What driver tube are those?


----------



## OctavianH

shafat777 said:


> Beautiful set of tubes. What driver tube are those?



GE 7581A.


----------



## shafat777

OctavianH said:


> GE 7581A.


Thats awesome man. I am running a pair of KT77 Gold Lion as driver tubes myself.


----------



## LoryWiv

GE 7581A are damn versatile...I rolled them in tonight to power position driven by Sylvania GB 6SN7WGT. Warm and enveloping sound listening to a string quartet, with just enough detail to satisfy the audiophile in me.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Elise during weekend.


Looking good Octavian, enjoy those weekend tunes! .


----------



## Scutey

Finally given in to temptation and bought a pair of used GEC KT88, sound very similar to the their cousin the KT66, lovely sound coming from this legendary tube though.


----------



## OctavianH

I do not have a pair of KT88 NOS.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I do not have a pair of KT88 NOS.


Never mind mate, I'm sure there's a pair out there with you're name on them, just waiting for you .


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> GE 7581A are damn versatile...I rolled them in tonight to power position driven by Sylvania GB 6SN7WGT. Warm and enveloping sound listening to a string quartet, with just enough detail to satisfy the audiophile in me.


Thanks for sharing @LoryWiv, never thought of trying them as powers, must give them a go.


----------



## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> Finally given in to temptation and bought a pair of used GEC KT88, sound very similar to the their cousin the KT66, lovely sound coming from this legendary tube though.


Congats! have you tried GEC KT88 powers driven by GEC KT66? I'm wondering if I should sell yet another body part and spring for a pair of GEC KT66 to pair with their big bro.


----------



## shafat777

Hearing you guys talk about fancy tubes really makes me happy. I m gonna let you guys do all the experimentation, but plz do stop by and let us know how they sound so that noobs like me can upgrade in the future.


----------



## barontan2418 (Feb 14, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Congats! have you tried GEC KT88 powers driven by GEC KT66? I'm wondering if I should sell yet another body part and spring for a pair of GEC KT66 to pair with their big bro.


I've tried this combo on both Elise  and Euforia. Sounded great but too much humm. GEC KT66 still well worth getting if you get the chance
Sound very good driven by GE 7581a. Using GEC KT66 as powers in Elise driven by GU50'S definitely brings out the best of Beth Hart.


----------



## Scutey (Feb 14, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Congats! have you tried GEC KT88 powers driven by GEC KT66? I'm wondering if I should sell yet another body part and spring for a pair of GEC KT66 to pair with their big bro.


Depends what body parts you've got left @LoryWiv!


 . The GEC KT66 is a superb tube, 6v6/g tubes sound great with them, along with the other recommendations. Had a go with them as drivers to the GEC KT88 this eve, well it's a great sound, wide, deep soundstage, fairly warm, smooth and refined without sacrificing drive and detail, a great combo.

edit, forgot to add, to my surprise this combo was dead silent, no hum.


----------



## barontan2418

Scutey said:


> Depends what body parts you've got left @LoryWiv! . The GEC KT66 is a superb tube, 6v6/g tubes sound great with them, along with the other recommendations. Had a go with them as drivers to the GEC KT88 this eve, well it's a great sound, wide, deep soundstage, fairly warm, smooth and refined without sacrificing drive and detail, a great combo.
> 
> edit, forgot to add, to my surprise this combo was dead silent, no hum.


Maybe. I'll try again without putting the KT88'S alongside my GU50'S.  Is that dead silence all the way through the volume levels?


----------



## Scutey

barontan2418 said:


> Maybe. I'll try again without putting the KT88'S alongside my GU50'S.  Is that dead silence all the way through the volume levels?


I didn't try to full volume, but I did go as far as the 3 o'clock position and still silent.


----------



## barontan2418

Scutey said:


> I didn't try to full volume, but I did go as far as the 3 o'clock position and still silent.


Thanks Scutey
 I've tried again on Euforia and still no joy. Might be the fact I'm using TT22's with top caps but I get hum all the way through low to high. Still I'm very happy driving with either EL11 or GE 6550's. Cheers.


----------



## Scutey

barontan2418 said:


> Thanks Scutey
> I've tried again on Euforia and still no joy. Might be the fact I'm using TT22's with top caps but I get hum all the way through low to high. Still I'm very happy driving with either EL11 or GE 6550's. Cheers.


Yes it could well be the top caps, a pity, but still I don't think you're missing out with those great tubes you've got .


----------



## barontan2418 (Feb 16, 2021)

This is the combination I like the best so far. Covers all bases. Does everything the GEC KT66 does but more power and better staging.


----------



## LoryWiv

@barontan2418 are those GEC KT88 powers, and what drivers? Sue looks sweet and from your preference sounds great across genres as well!


----------



## OctavianH

Those look like GU-50 to me.


----------



## barontan2418

LoryWiv said:


> @barontan2418 are those GEC KT88 powers, and what drivers? Sue looks sweet and from your preference sounds great across genres as well!


Yes LoryWiv GEC KT88 power and GU50's as drivers. For me and my HD800 a really great combination
And might I add silent from 0 to full power when no track playing😁. The only point I would note when using these powerfull tubes is that for me volume needs to be at 14:00 ish


----------



## barontan2418

Following up from my last post re GU50'S, as much as I've found 50's and GEC KT88'S a great combination,  limited volume has been an issue requiring me to work at close to full volume especially when playing classical music. This week I've been trying out different drivers to run my 2x GU50 and 2x GEC KT88'S back row. Having now experimented with 10 or more different driver tubes the one that is standing out is the EL12N (normally run in the power position). After running a nearly nos pair in the driver position for 5 hrs today its proved to be totally silent all the way to full volume and a really great match for the power hungry power tubes. These EL12N's are not too expensive so in my view well worth the purchase if going down the GU50 route.


----------



## LoryWiv

Thanks @barontan2418. Which EL12N, and where did you source the adapters from. Asking for a friend who may be ready for another rabbit hole to explore.


----------



## barontan2418 (Feb 20, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @barontan2418. Which EL12N, and where did you source the adapters from. Asking for a friend who may be ready for another rabbit hole to explore.


Hi LoryWiv. EL12N's are RSD. My source here in UK has dried up but there are still a few on ebay for approx $19 each.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/El12n-NO...-/153325818496?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-EL11...-/201726996830?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


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## OctavianH (Feb 20, 2021)

For RSD EL12N I always try here.

Later edit: it seems on Ebay its the same seller. But the price is different, bigger.


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> For RSD EL12N I always try here.
> 
> Later edit: it seems on Ebay its the same seller. But the price is different, bigger.


Hi. OctavianH.

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/elekit-audio-kits-tu-8200r.html

Just wondered if you've looked into the above amplifier in kit form?


----------



## OctavianH

barontan2418 said:


> Hi. OctavianH.
> 
> https://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/elekit-audio-kits-tu-8200r.html
> 
> Just wondered if you've looked into the above amplifier in kit form?



Yes, I've read about that one and wanted to buy an already assembled one. I am not that good on soldering and tinkering stuff. It receives very good comments from @UntilThen and it seems to be a very nice amplifier.


----------



## barontan2418

OctavianH said:


> Yes, I've read about that one and wanted to buy an already assembled one. I am not that good on soldering and tinkering stuff. It receives very good comments from @UntilThen and it seems to be a very nice amplifier.


Have I the skill though? That's the question. It's on my mind now so we will see. Thanks.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 20, 2021)

barontan2418 said:


> Have I the skill though? That's the question. It's on my mind now so we will see. Thanks.



I think it might be a challenge depending on your experience with soldering, but I trust you. You can do it. If not, I think they sell also pre-built versions.


----------



## UntilThen

barontan2418 said:


> Hi. OctavianH.
> 
> https://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/elekit-audio-kits-tu-8200r.html
> 
> Just wondered if you've looked into the above amplifier in kit form?


I've absolute high regard for the Elekit TU-8200. In the 'R', it's even better but I won't get to find out for myself because mine is the non R version. This is such an astonishing amp especially with NOS tubes. In the words of my tube supplier, there is simply no comparison between a NOS GEC KT66 and a Genalex Gold Lion KT66. 

As good as the 8200 is, adding the 8500 preamp to it, lift the game even more. I can't let go of that combo and it's the reason for my wanting a custom amp built around those parameters but with more drivers included and a tube rectifier. That in my opinion will make Odyssey far better than the Elekit combo but we shall see.

Other wonderful aspects of the 8200 are quietness, coolness and the ability to drive speakers very well.... not to the level of good integrated stereo amps but drive speakers well nevertheless.

Finally if you do get the 8200R, try the Telefunken EL12 spez as power tubes. You may not need the other power tubes.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 21, 2021)

On 19th of February my Elise got older. 3 years. Happy birthday little buddy! You provided me 3 years of happines.






Coincidence or not, in the same day one of my favourite bands released a new album which is on repeat for almost 48 hours.



My impressions when I received it can be found here.


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## Scutey (Feb 21, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> On 19th of February my Elise got older. 3 years. Happy birthday little buddy! You provided me 3 years of happines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Happy birthday Elise!, where have the last three years gone!, mine's only three months older, soo much has happened in that time, all those tubes we've gone though .

Oh and that album, very good, listening to it as I type .


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## OctavianH (Feb 22, 2021)

Well, I think now my warranty officially expired. I had no problems with the amplifier, seems built like a tank.

Later edit: Ok, so let's try something I think not many tried before:





PsVane KT88T2 with PsVane CV181T2. Very interesting combo, full of energy and with very good detail retrieval. I will need more time for these, but for sure the KT88T2 retain something from the timbre of the drivers, analytical sound with incredible bass. Punchy, defined, the double pedal is killing it. I put the latest Royal Hunt album and sounds crystal clear.



Later Edit: Beautiful in low light.


----------



## Scutey

Another gratuitous pic of GEC tubes,  just couldn't resist, but after ten days with this combo, as far as I'm concerned this is the pinnacle, it just does not get better this.


----------



## LoryWiv

Scutey said:


> Another gratuitous pic of GEC tubes,  just couldn't resist, but after ten days with this combo, as far as I'm concerned this is the pinnacle, it just does not get better this.


GEC KT66 driving GEC KT88? @Scutey? Gorgeous! As it happens I just received some GEC KT66. I'm going to clean the pins and fire them up next day or two, and thanks for sharing that it's something wonderful to look forward to!


----------



## Alpha1Ric

I want to buy this one, this has enough power to HD800S? its good?


----------



## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> GEC KT66 driving GEC KT88? @Scutey? Gorgeous! As it happens I just received some GEC KT66. I'm going to clean the pins and fire them up next day or two, and thanks for sharing that it's something wonderful to look forward to!


They are indeed GEC KT88 @LoryWiv, and, as I'm sure you know, rather wonderful to boot!, they've sounded good with every driver tube I've thrown at em, but best of all is the GEC KT66, a very fine power tube in it's own right, this combo does everything I want out of a combo, warm, full bodied, but with great drive, timing, detail and imaging, you're in for a treat with those GEC's, enjoy! .


----------



## Scutey

Alpha1Ric said:


> I want to buy this one, this has enough power to HD800S? its good?


Hi @Alpha1Ric. Yes the Elise should have enough power to drive the HD800S no problem, I use Beyerdynamic T1.2 and ZMF Auteur/Atticus, with 600 and 300 ohms respectively and the Elise drives them with power to spare.


----------



## UntilThen

Scutey said:


> Another gratuitous pic of GEC tubes,  just couldn't resist, but after ten days with this combo, as far as I'm concerned this is the pinnacle, it just does not get better this.


Getting rich Scutey   I have the GEC KT66 already and will be getting the GEC KT77 and 88.


----------



## Scutey

UntilThen said:


> Getting rich Scutey   I have the GEC KT66 already and will be getting the GEC KT77 and 88.


Nice!, bit of a GEC love in going on here!. I've been having this daydream, I walk into a second hand shop and spot box of old tubes, and lo, what do I see in it but full of pristine GEC KT88 tubes, the proprietor doesn't know what he's got and sells them to me for £10, well a bloke can dream eh? .


----------



## UntilThen

Scutey said:


> Nice!, bit of a GEC love in going on here!. I've been having this daydream, I walk into a second hand shop and spot box of old tubes, and lo, what do I see in it but full of pristine GEC KT88 tubes, the proprietor doesn't know what he's got and sells them to me for £10, well a bloke can dream eh? .


It's a good dream except I also dream of other brands like Telefunken, Mullard etc.


----------



## lalawilson168

Hi guys, I probably should have asked this before pulling the trigger on the purchase, but you know how it is. 

Is the amp auto biasing the matched tubes?
As an otl amp, the recommend headphone impedance goes as low as 32ohms and I have heard it works well with certain planars like the Ayra, which kind of counter intuitive for me.
I'll be coming from a BHC+SB, anyone can comment on how much of an upgrade it would be with the elise?

Thanks!


----------



## UntilThen

lalawilson168 said:


> Hi guys, I probably should have asked this before pulling the trigger on the purchase, but you know how it is.
> 
> Is the amp auto biasing the matched tubes?
> As an otl amp, the recommend headphone impedance goes as low as 32ohms and I have heard it works well with certain planars like the Ayra, which kind of counter intuitive for me.
> ...


Auto bias. Shouldn't be a problem with Arya but Arya might thrives on more power from another more powerful amp. Don't know. I've heard both but not together.

Feliks Elise beats the BHC + SB hands down. I've owned Elise and have heard Crack so I know but YYMV as usual.


----------



## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Nice!, bit of a GEC love in going on here!. I've been having this daydream, I walk into a second hand shop and spot box of old tubes, and lo, what do I see in it but full of pristine GEC KT88 tubes, the proprietor doesn't know what he's got and sells them to me for £10, well a bloke can dream eh? .



Well, the perfect dream if also Alicia Vikander is the shop seller. Anyway, thinking about how lucky I am most probably I'll be stucked in traffic and when I'll manage to arrive at the shop @UntilThen's Rolls Royce will be parked outside and all the tubes will be already bought and loaded in the trunk. Well, at least I'll remain with Alicia. LOL


----------



## UntilThen (Feb 25, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> Well, the perfect dream if also Alicia Vikander is the shop seller. Anyway, thinking about how lucky I am most probably I'll be stucked in traffic and when I'll manage to arrive at the shop @UntilThen's Rolls Royce will be parked outside and all the tubes will be already bought and loaded in the trunk. Well, at least I'll remain with Alicia. LOL


Strange that I've not heard of Alicia but now that I have, you can have my Rolls Royce while I go on a date with Alicia. Hell you can even have my GEC tubes....

I want to be stranded on an island with her. You can have my tube amps and tubes.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> I want to be stranded on an island with her. You can have my tube amps and tubes.



Hmm, the dream was better with me delayed and remaining with Alicia. Now let me take this thread and hide it somewhere until my girlfriend finds out.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> Hmm, the dream was better with me delayed and remaining with Alicia. Now let me take this thread and hide it somewhere until my girlfriend finds out.


Hahaha I'll tell your girlfriend unless you hand over all your GEC tubes. This is now a blackmail.


----------



## OctavianH

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha I'll tell your girlfriend unless you hand over all your GEC tubes. This is now a blackmail.



I'll kidnap myself and all my tubes and nobody will find me. Now we have also Liam Neeson in the dream. LOL


----------



## UntilThen

A long time ago with GOTL.


----------



## Scutey

Hey you guys, where are you taking my daydream .


----------



## UntilThen

Scutey said:


> Hey you guys, where are you taking my daydream .


Is your dream GEC or Alicia?


----------



## Scutey

Well, let's put it this way, I like GEC tubes ... but not that much .


----------



## barontan2418

Just pushed the button on a secondhand Chord Hugo TT. My most expensive single purchase so far. Never had my finger hover over the buy button for so long. Still it's only money, I'm justifying purchase on money saved on petrol over the last year.🥴


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 26, 2021)

barontan2418 said:


> Just pushed the button on a secondhand Chord Hugo TT. My most expensive single purchase so far. Never had my finger hover over the buy button for so long. Still it's only money, I'm justifying purchase on money saved on petrol over the last year.🥴



I was in the same situation as you trying to make self imposed limitations for the past year. In the end I made several purchases for the simple fact that I have worked almost all 2020 from home due to the pandemic and it seems 2021 will continue to do so. This means 16h/day for me to listen to Elise and the audio line just went up into the prioritisation queue because of this. Who knows what future reserves to us and if we will ever have so much time for music like we have now? So we should listen to it as good as possible. That being said, congratulations on your purchase! I am sure it is an excellent performer, and keep us posted about your project of building the Elekit TU-8200R!


----------



## UntilThen

barontan2418 said:


> Just pushed the button on a secondhand Chord Hugo TT. My most expensive single purchase so far. Never had my finger hover over the buy button for so long. Still it's only money, I'm justifying purchase on money saved on petrol over the last year.🥴


Pushing buttons is what we do.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I was in the same situation as you trying to make self imposed limitations for the past year. In the end I made several purchases for the simple fact that I have worked almost all 2020 from home due to the pandemic and it seems 2021 will continue to do so. This means 16h/day for me to listen to Elise and the audio line just went up into the prioritisation queue because of this. Who knows what future reserves to us and if we will ever have so much time for music like we have now? So we should listen to it as good as possible. That being said, congratulations on your purchase! I am sure it is an excellent performer, and keep us posted about your project of building the Elekit TU-8200R!


Oh is @barontan2418 building a Elekit TU-8200R. Excited for you. @GDuss is also building one. Soon it will be one big happy Elekit family.


----------



## OctavianH (Feb 28, 2021)

I played a little bit more with these Psvane KT88TII and tried them with some GE 7581A.






When used with Euforia's stock drivers, the Psvane CV181T2, the sound goes towards a more analytical direction, somehow reminding me about SS amplifiers. Now, combined with these warmer drivers, the sound goes a little bit towards a "tubey" sound, but still it retains the precise and punchy bass from the previous combination. A nice combo, at least on Elise.
And if you want to go further, I have to say that Philips EL3N as drivers combined with these neutral and more analytical powers gives a very full bodied sound.





You are loosing some detail, but obtain a creamy and nice analogue sound. For classic rock this is quite good. I guess it is time for some Black Sabbath.


----------



## Jonwch

OctavianH said:


> I played a little bit more with these Psvane KT88TII and tried them with some GE 7581A.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just got my TT2 and couldn't be happier with it, but am doing homework for future upgrades to my system 
Your system seems to be the direction I see myself going towards, with the mscaler and a gooey tube amp, and was wondering how the amplification of the elise compares to the amp built into the TT2. Also if I was to get a new piece of gear in the near future, do you recommend getting the mscaler or the amp first?


----------



## OctavianH

Jonwch said:


> I just got my TT2 and couldn't be happier with it, but am doing homework for future upgrades to my system
> Your system seems to be the direction I see myself going towards, with the mscaler and a gooey tube amp, and was wondering how the amplification of the elise compares to the amp built into the TT2. Also if I was to get a new piece of gear in the near future, do you recommend getting the mscaler or the amp first?



Well, tough question. I do not know the answer, but I can tell you some of my findings related to TT2, to M Scaler and also to Elise when combined with them.

*1. Regarding influence of M Scaler in my setup.* For me, using only headphones and TT2 in DAC mode (I do not use the integrated headphone amplifier of TT2 - the AMP mode), when switching M Scaler from Passive mode to Full upscaling mode I hear only a marginal difference. It is there, you have a small idea of better definition and separation, but I would say around 10%. A bigger difference for me is to completely remove M Scaler from the circuit. Strange, I know. Might be related to my own setup, preferences and so on. It is hard to say. On M Scaler thread you see hundreds of pages of debates, and it is hard to draw a conclusion.
*2. Regarding TT2 as a DAC compared with Qutest.* When I upgraded from Qutest to TT2 I had a feeling of better resolution, bigger sound stage but also a warmer sound. I kept both everytime on Incissive Neutral filter and listened through Elise. This means that adding Elise to TT2 as an external amplifier might be too much if you plan to have a neutral sound. It depends on which headphones you pair with. There is a big difference from what you hear using T1.2 compared with HD800 or ADX5000. And it is also a matter of personal preference. I like to have that warm analogue sound from the 70s when listening to Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath. But this kind of sound might not be perfect for classical music or orchestral. However, Elise is like a chameleon and exchanging tubes might transform enough the sound to match your preferences, in detriment of your wallet. And TT2 needs also a linear power supply to shine. And if you add M Scaler you definitely need better dual BNC cables besides the supply. Both made big difference in my setup and you should not ignore them. And for all of these I recommend to use a power conditioner. I had benefits also for Elise, not only for TT2 and M Scaler when connecting my whole headphone line to an AudioPlan FineFilter S and TT2 + M Scaler in addition to a Furman AC210A-E.
*3. Regarding how TT2 integrated headphone amplifier sounds compared to Elise.* Well, I was never too good in describing sound using fancy words, but one thing you hear first when you try TT2 in AMP mode are the clarity and incredible dynamics. I had a feeling that everything happens faster, everything sounds crystal clear. But when I tried it with my 600 Ohm Beyers I also had a feeling that the bass is under my expectation as quantity, that the sound is relatively thin. Everything was technical, clean, precise but my T1.2 sounded much better on Elise. Again, a matter of preference. On the TT2 thread many praise it with Empyrean which are a dark pair of headphones with low impedance. Most probably those compensate on what I felt it was missing with my headphones. I cannot say since I never listened to Empyreans. On Elise everything happens a little bit slower, but each instrument weights harder. And a big advantage of Elise is that it is very responsible to tubes, it has countless possibilities of transforming the sound. On TT2 you just hear it, that's it, you like it or not, you have to get used to it. Of course, you can exchange a headphone cable or use some equalizer but I think the change is minimal compared to what you can do with Elise.

*And now I'll try to answer you...* If I will have at the moment TT2 on the table the first thing I would do is to obtain an LPS for it and compare how it sounds after I add that one. Then I will plug TT2's LPS into a power conditioner. Only next step for me would be to add the tube amplifier, and compare both external and internal amplifiers for some time. Thinking that both these upgrades (LPS+filtering and tube amplifier) are around half of M Scaler's price and that they will provide you more room to try and experiment compared to adding the M Scaler, which you just plug there and that's it, I think they are the best choice first. Of course, if you can try the M Scaler with the possibility to return it, you can do it right away. This is how I see it, let's hope others will come with more opinions. And of course, my answer might be related to my own setup and preferences as I already said. Adding power filtering and the LPS will, most probably, remove some brightness and harshness from the sound, and only after that you will know if you need also a tube amplifier or not.

Well, I am sure I have not properly provided an answer but let's hope my findings help.


----------



## shafat777

Can anyone tell me if i can use GE 7581a tubes using deyans adapters with my Elise?


----------



## OctavianH

shafat777 said:


> Can anyone tell me if i can use GE 7581a tubes using deyans adapters with my Elise?



Yes, you can use those with the same adapters as those for KT66/77/88/6550A. A few posts above you see them as drivers.


----------



## Jonwch

OctavianH said:


> Well, tough question. I do not know the answer, but I can tell you some of my findings related to TT2, to M Scaler and also to Elise when combined with them.
> 
> *1. Regarding influence of M Scaler in my setup.* For me, using only headphones and TT2 in DAC mode (I do not use the integrated headphone amplifier of TT2 - the AMP mode), when switching M Scaler from Passive mode to Full upscaling mode I hear only a marginal difference. It is there, you have a small idea of better definition and separation, but I would say around 10%. A bigger difference for me is to completely remove M Scaler from the circuit. Strange, I know. Might be related to my own setup, preferences and so on. It is hard to say. On M Scaler thread you see hundreds of pages of debates, and it is hard to draw a conclusion.
> *2. Regarding TT2 as a DAC compared with Qutest.* When I upgraded from Qutest to TT2 I had a feeling of better resolution, bigger sound stage but also a warmer sound. I kept both everytime on Incissive Neutral filter and listened through Elise. This means that adding Elise to TT2 as an external amplifier might be too much if you plan to have a neutral sound. It depends on which headphones you pair with. There is a big difference from what you hear using T1.2 compared with HD800 or ADX5000. And it is also a matter of personal preference. I like to have that warm analogue sound from the 70s when listening to Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath. But this kind of sound might not be perfect for classical music or orchestral. However, Elise is like a chameleon and exchanging tubes might transform enough the sound to match your preferences, in detriment of your wallet. And TT2 needs also a linear power supply to shine. And if you add M Scaler you definitely need better dual BNC cables besides the supply. Both made big difference in my setup and you should not ignore them. And for all of these I recommend to use a power conditioner. I had benefits also for Elise, not only for TT2 and M Scaler when connecting my whole headphone line to an AudioPlan FineFilter S and TT2 + M Scaler in addition to a Furman AC210A-E.
> ...



Wow, I could't have asked for a more detailed take, this helps quite a bit!

I bought the Empyreans in the beginning because I loved the musicality of it, the body of the sound end and especially the sound staging. I have always preferred a warmer sound, as I am quite sensitive to treble, and find brighter sounding setups extremely fatiguing. When choosing dacs, I initially tried out the Burson Conductor 3r and the Mytek Broolyn Dac+ amongst others, which I found to be warmer and easier to listen to for long periods of time. The TT2 was actually a surprise for me because I was always felt that Chord products had a tendency to be slightly brighter than I am comfortable with, granted it is still slightly brighter than I am normally used to, the dynamics, the clarity and soundstage are all to die for.

My though behind getting a tube amp is to make the music more melt in your chair after a long day at the office, which as of listening off the tt2 has me super engaged in the music, at the edge of my chair. That way I can have best of both worlds and swap between one or the other when I feel like it.

I know my dealer has an Mscaler in store so I guess my best bet is to go in and give it a go, especially since they also stock the empyreans and the tt2, which makes the auditioning process a whole lot easier. 

I guess I have a ton of reading and auditioning ahead of me, and seeing how you put it, will definitely also look into an LPS and a conditioner in the near future and see what I come up with.

Thanks again for the help!

J


----------



## OctavianH

Jonwch said:


> I guess I have a ton of reading and auditioning ahead of me, and seeing how you put it, will definitely also look into an LPS and a conditioner in the near future and see what I come up with.



I use here a cheap Furman like this one, available around 180 USD: 
https://furmanpower.com/product/10a-two-outlet-power-conditioner-export/
Just check to buy the one appropriate for your country (240V/110V, and so on).
For me this small one with 2 outputs is enough (in your case TT2 + M-Scaler or Elise/Euforia depending on what you choose).

Now, regarding Elise, before you buy it check with your distributor, someone said here a few pages back that F. A. plans to release soon a refreshed model. Maybe it is better to wait and buy the new one, which will borrow some things from its bigger brother Euforia or maybe go directly to Euforia. If you can try both, you can see which one is better for you. Of course, if the improvements are only "several of the power supply refinements for quieter operation trickled down from the Euforia" you might be on the same road with the Furman.


----------



## UntilThen

OctavianH said:


> I played a little bit more with these Psvane KT88TII and tried them with some GE 7581A.


The 7581/A tube is an industrial strength version of the 6L6GC which is also said to be the American equivalent to the British KT-66. The ratings 7581 are roughly the same as the 6L6GC while the 7581A has higher ratings. - from the virtual world that we call Internet. 

Well I did learn about a new tube. Strange I didn't use my EH 6L6GC on the Elekit TU-8200 anymore. Telefunken EL12 spez is almost permanently seated there. I should plonk in the GEC KT66 sometime because it cost me $550 !


----------



## OctavianH

I am quite enjoying the Philips EL3N driving the Psvane KT88T2. I think I will continue to burn the KT88s with these. I am around 75 hours already.


----------



## LoryWiv (Feb 28, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> *1. Regarding influence of M Scaler in my setup.* For me, using only headphones and TT2 in DAC mode (I do not use the integrated headphone amplifier of TT2 - the AMP mode), when switching M Scaler from Passive mode to Full upscaling mode I hear only a marginal difference. It is there, you have a small idea of better definition and separation, but I would say around 10%. A bigger difference for me is to completely remove M Scaler from the circuit. Strange, I know. Might be related to my own setup, preferences and so on. It is hard to say. On M Scaler thread you see hundreds of pages of debates, and it is hard to draw a conclusion.


Another oversampling option is HQPlayer, and there is some comparison with results of this software versus MScaler *here*.


----------



## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> I played a little bit more with these Psvane KT88TII and tried them with some GE 7581A.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good to hear you're enjoying those Psvanes, and that's a great idea to use the EL3N with them, think I will try mine with the Svetlana 6550C, as the Svet's are quite neutral, and analytical, oh and Isn't it always time for some Sabbath? .


----------



## shafat777

i have been comparing driver tubes for my Elise. I am using Gold Lion kt 88 as my power tubes. I have been using 1944 Sylvania Vt-231 for drivers for about 3 months. This is a really good combination with unmatched vocals and high frequency. The bass is a little conservative but very tight. For the last 2 weeks i swapped out those for a Gold Lion kt77 as drivers. These sound more holographic with wide soundstage. The best/most definite feature of these tubes are the mid bass. Its deep and very textured. The vocals have a 3d effect with them but the treble is tamed. NOt as airy, sounds a little thicker. I have a pair of Ge7581a tubes coming in the mail and then i ll use those as drivers too.

I was thinking about running my vt231 with the KT77 as powers. Does anyone have any experience using kt77 gold lion as power tubes in Elise?


----------



## Jonwch

LoryWiv said:


> Another oversampling option is HQPlayer, and there is some comparison with results of this software versus MScaler *here*.



I downloaded the trial yesterday and have been trying it out, the settings are slightly intimidating seeing as I'm pretty new to everything. 

Will look into this and see if I can take anything away from it. Thanks!


----------



## LoryWiv

Don't want to hijack the Elise thread, so PM sent @Jonwch.


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 1, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Don't want to hijack the Elise thread, so PM sent @Jonwch.



I am curious to know about your results. I was looking into this before ordering TT2 and the M Scaler. In my case I obtained a decent discount if ordered both, so I went for it and I am happy. I would do the same even now in those conditions because in my case I use several inputs of M-Scaler and sometimes prefer to be separated from my PC.
I use on my PC a JCAT Femto USB card and looked also into JPlay Femto which is for me another very interesting alternative.


----------



## OctavianH (Mar 1, 2021)

Scutey said:


> Good to hear you're enjoying those Psvanes, and that's a great idea to use the EL3N with them, think I will try mine with the Svetlana 6550C, as the Svet's are quite neutral, and analytical, oh and Isn't it always time for some Sabbath? .



I always try warmer and more relaxed drivers for when the powers are going into analytical and less euphonic direction. However, in the reverse way not always goes so well. But this particular combination is great. I recommend it.



shafat777 said:


> I was thinking about running my vt231 with the KT77 as powers. Does anyone have any experience using kt77 gold lion as power tubes in Elise?



I used KT77 as powers and the sound was very warm and relaxed, however I think that you will have better results using KT88 + KT77. KT77 as powers, at least in Elise, provided me a lot of bass but the quality was not matching my expectation.


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## Jonwch

OctavianH said:


> I am curious to know about your results. I was looking into this before ordering TT2 and the M Scaler. In my case I obtained a decent discount if ordered both, so I went for it and I am happy. I would do the same even now in those conditions because in my case I use several inputs of M-Scaler and sometimes prefer to be separated from my PC.
> I use on my PC a JCAT Femto USB card and looked also into JPlay Femto which is for me another very interesting alternative.



I am looking forward to finding out too. So far the only thing I've been able to give myself is a mini heart attack when I heard the loudest of pops between songs, espesially since my tt2 is brand new, I'm pretty new to the hobby so looks like a long road ahead.

But if this somehow works and I can forego the mscaler and straight into the amp all the better, not to mention I'd be able to put more money into a decent set of tubes with the money I save, but at this point I'm getting ahead of myself 🙈. I'll keep you updated if I find anything substantial


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## OctavianH (Mar 1, 2021)

Jonwch said:


> But if this somehow works and I can forego the mscaler and straight into the amp all the better, not to mention I'd be able to put more money into a decent set of tubes with the money I save, but at this point I'm getting ahead of myself 🙈. I'll keep you updated if I find anything substantial



I use here on PC foobar2000 and there is a free upscaler called SRC. I tried it on Qutest, and when set to resample 384000 I had a feeling it improved something. Since Qutest has that top window where you can see the frequency of the input signal, it was simple for me to check if this works. So many solutions, all going somehow into the same direction, some of them free.






But the main problem you have to fix on the PC is the USB connection before any of these resamplers. I will not start a storm of discussions here, just provide a link.
In my case, an USB card externally powered, improved greatly the quality. As I said before, I use M Scaler also on optical input with an external CD Transport and sometimes compare the same CD from my PC or directly via optical, and there is a difference, almost all the time the CD sounds better.


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## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I use here on PC foobar2000 and there is a free upscaler called SRC. I tried it on Qutest, and when set to resample (not upscale) 384000 I had a feeling it improved something. Since Qutest has that top window where you can see the frequency of the input signal, it was simple for me to check if this works. So many solutions, all going somehow into the same direction, some of them free. This is something basic, but it can upsample to 4x.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One thing HQ Player does that I use often is convert PCM to DSD. I generally prefer the results to straight PCM --> PCM upsampling butI am sure that's a matter of preference and may vary by DAC if the DAC handles PCM or DSM preferentially. It may also be best if the DAC is NOS but while mine is not, I am very happy with the improvements I get with HQ Player.

As for USB interface, I have a Singxer SU-1 and connect I2S to DAC. I've read that USB connections to DACS are improving iteratively, but a the concept of a DDC appeals to me and results are excellent.


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## Scutey

Here's another nice power tube and combo,  Svetlana 6550C,old production, *not* new production, driven by EL11. The 6550C has a fairly neutral, linear sound, so pairs well with a warmer fuller bodied driver, this combo is full, detailed, but still retains good detail, air and punchy bass, not pretty to look at but the sound is very impressive.


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## hung031086

I bought this amp about 2 months ago to pair with my VO and VC. And I recently just upgraded the power tubes to Chatham 6AS7G. Now Im looking for a pair of driver tubes. Any recommendations for that ? If adapters needed, where can I get those ? Sorry Im new with tubes.


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## shafat777

@hung031086

Sylvania 6sn7 gt for cheap but good pair of driver tubes. Or you can get Sylvania Vt-231 if you want to spend more. Since you are new to tubes, i wouldnt worry about the adapters just yet.


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## Deceneu808

hung031086 said:


> I bought this amp about 2 months ago to pair with my VO and VC. And I recently just upgraded the power tubes to Chatham 6AS7G. Now Im looking for a pair of driver tubes. Any recommendations for that ? If adapters needed, where can I get those ? Sorry Im new with tubes.


https://cutt.ly/mlBDItR or https://cutt.ly/slBDSvi

The WGTA is Dark as in dry ? Can't really put my finger on it but I love this little short thing. Very good midrange with excellent vocals. Highs roll off quick sooo you might think less details but it comes off as a relaxed sound. My fav pairing so far with any 6AS7.

The VT-231's are more balanced throughout the whole frequency range. More neutral sounding than the WGTA but still retains a little bit of warmth.
Really it all depends on your taste.


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## OctavianH (Mar 2, 2021)

Continuing the burn in of Psvane KT88T2, around 100 hours. Now with some Genalex KT77 as drivers.





Warm and romantic. Too relaxed for my taste. So I put the Siemens C3g as drivers.





This is one of the most detailed and clean sounding combinations I ever heard on Elise. But the bass quantity is under my expectations. However, good combination.


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## OctavianH

In the end I combined the KT88 with the russian 6H8C and this is for me a very solid combination. 150 hours.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> In the end I combined the KT88 with the russian 6H8C and this is for me a very solid combination. 150 hours.


Must try my 50s 6H8C with my KT88's and give it a try, thats if I can force myself to take out the KT66.


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## OctavianH

Scutey said:


> Must try my 50s 6H8C with my KT88's and give it a try, thats if I can force myself to take out the KT66.



Your 50s 6H8C with your pair of GEC KT88 might be a delight. I would say it makes sense to try it.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> Your 50s 6H8C with your pair of GEC KT88 might be a delight. I would say it makes sense to try it.


I will definitely give them a try and let you know, it's a no brainer.


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## shafat777

I just paired my Gold Lion kT88 powers with a nos set of Ge 7581A drivers and the results are somewhat meh.  The mid bass is recessed a lot with these drivers. The GL KT77 had  holographic soundstage with mid bass slam while the VT231 had lush vocals and sweet high end. Not sure what to make of these GE 7581a. Idk if i should try to return these or burn these in for a little longer. 

Any suggestions for a driver tubes (with or without adapters) that plays well with my power tubes? I would really appreciate it.


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## LoryWiv (Mar 6, 2021)

OctavianH said:


> Your 50s 6H8C with your pair of GEC KT88 might be a delight. I would say it makes sense to try it.


@OctavianH I recall you saying good things about GEC KT66 powers driven by GE 7581A. That's what I have in Elise right now and even with my preferred genre of classical piano music, something special is going on here. Thanks for pointing me to this combination.


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## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> @OctavianH I recall you saying good things about GEC KT66 powers driven by GE 7581A. That's what I have in Elise right now and even with my preferred genre of classical piano music, something special is going on here. Thanks for pointing me to this combination.


Which version of the KT66 do you have @LoryWiv , clear or coated?, either way both are wonderful sounding tubes!.


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## connieflyer

AS I remember, the 7581A took awhile to burn in.  Been a while, since I had them in, but liked them as drivers.


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## LoryWiv (Mar 7, 2021)

Scutey said:


> Which version of the KT66 do you have @LoryWiv , clear or coated?, either way both are wonderful sounding tubes!.


Coated:


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## OctavianH

shafat777 said:


> I just paired my Gold Lion kT88 powers with a nos set of Ge 7581A drivers and the results are somewhat meh.  The mid bass is recessed a lot with these drivers. The GL KT77 had  holographic soundstage with mid bass slam while the VT231 had lush vocals and sweet high end. Not sure what to make of these GE 7581a. Idk if i should try to return these or burn these in for a little longer.
> 
> Any suggestions for a driver tubes (with or without adapters) that plays well with my power tubes? I would really appreciate it.



I use these GE 7581A only with KT66. It is my favourite combination in Elise. For KT88 I use warmer 6SN7. I liked also, up to a point, KT88 + KT77. But it depends on taste, headphones, musical genre and so on.


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## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Coated:



So it seems I was not crazy listening one year to the same combo.


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## Scutey

LoryWiv said:


> Coated:


Nice tubes!. The coated are a little warmer and richer than the Clear but only by a small amount, the 6V6 pair nicely too with them, and for an on steroids sound as drivers to the GEC KT88.


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## Scutey

OctavianH said:


> So it seems I was not crazy listening one year to the same combo.


Nope, definitely not  crazy with the tubes, but the way things still are it probably helps to be a bit crazy!.


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## OctavianH

These combos of Psvane KT88T2 with Psvane CV181T2 or Foton 6H8C are sounding to me a little bit "technical". Definitely more analytic than euphonic, but for albums like, for example, the latest Haken, they really provide an incredible experience.



By the way, drums are sounding killer. Incredible band.


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## Scutey

Following on from @OctavianH success with the 6H8C,here's another nice driver for KT88, the RCA VT-231, not as warm/lush as I thought it would be.


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## shafat777

OctavianH said:


> I use these GE 7581A only with KT66. It is my favourite combination in Elise. For KT88 I use warmer 6SN7. I liked also, up to a point, KT88 + KT77. But it depends on taste, headphones, musical genre and so on.


For now, i have settled with the KT88 power + KT77 driver (All Gold lions). I also remember the KT88 powers + the VT-231 provides the best vocals and high end for my taste but its hard to get away from the 3d holographic sound of the KT77. Please keep me posted if you come across any driver tubes that plays well with the KT88 powers.


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## shafat777

@OctavianH 

Also, which 6sn7 tubes do you recommend with the KT88 powers?


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## OctavianH

shafat777 said:


> @OctavianH
> 
> Also, which 6sn7 tubes do you recommend with the KT88 powers?



I do not make any recommendation, because everything sounds different in another system. I would say you go for warmer variants, like VT-231.


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## TLO

Have just rolled a pair of Philips E80CC for a few days, thought they sound really good as 6SN7 in my amp until I put in the ECC31 and wow...ECC31 wins hands down, no question about it. I am just wondering...has anyone compared ECC31 to EF80, EF86 or L63? Please share your thoughts if you do, thanks!!!


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## LoryWiv

TLO said:


> Have just rolled a pair of Philips E80CC for a few days, thought they sound really good as 6SN7 in my amp until I put in the ECC31 and wow...ECC31 wins hands down, no question about it. I am just wondering...has anyone compared ECC31 to EF80, EF86 or L63? Please share your thoughts if you do, thanks!!!


Thanks @TLO. Forgive my ignorance but what adapters are needed to run ECC31 in Elise?


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## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @TLO. Forgive my ignorance but what adapters are needed to run ECC31 in Elise?


ECC31 has to work with 6N7 -> 6SN7 adapters.


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## UntilThen (Jun 8, 2022)

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @TLO. Forgive my ignorance but what adapters are needed to run ECC31 in Elise?



Lory   https://www.ebay.com/itm/201134198992

Back when I use ECC31 in Elise. It's a great tone.


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## mordy

TLO said:


> Have just rolled a pair of Philips E80CC for a few days, thought they sound really good as 6SN7 in my amp until I put in the ECC31 and wow...ECC31 wins hands down, no question about it. I am just wondering...has anyone compared ECC31 to EF80, EF86 or L63? Please share your thoughts if you do, thanks!!!


The L63 is one half of a 6SN7 so you need a dual adapter and four tubes. However, the consensus seems to be that two triodes L63/6J5G/GT sound better than using 6SN7 tubes.


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## TLO

mordy said:


> The L63 is one half of a 6SN7 so you need a dual adapter and four tubes. However, the consensus seems to be that two triodes L63/6J5G/GT sound better than using 6SN7 tubes.


Yes, I have read many commented on this, looking to try out GEC L63. Do you have the chance to compare it with ECC31?


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## mordy (Jun 8, 2022)

It gets a little complicated. Even though the 6SN7 is a dual triode and only one tube would be enough in the Elise, Feliks Audio decided to use two 6SN7 tubes in parallel. Now, HPMDR in France said that if you use the same adapter as the ECC31 requires, you can use two such adapters and you only need two single triodes 6J5G/T in the Elise.
I did try it, but it did not sound good to me. However, if you use the Elise with four 6J5GT tubes and dual adapters, instead of the two 6SN7 tubes, the results may be different.
The ECC31 has a very warm tone to it and it is quite nice. However, my current amp only uses a single dual triode as driver, and here I found that two single triode 6J5GT tubes sound better than one 6SN7 or equivalent.
Every amp is different, and the same tube may sound different in different amps - don't know how the circuitry of the Elise lends itself to the use of four single triodes. But it may be worth trying, or perhaps somebody already did try it.
So far I only have one L63 ST shape, but by all accounts it is a great sounding tube.
*PS: I actually realized that I have two dual adapters 6J5 to 6SN7 and I rigged up the amp with four 6J5GT tubes. All I got was a loud hum so forget about it in the Elise/Euforia.

PPS: Took out a pair of ECC31 to 6SN7 adapters and put in a pair of Sylvania 1951 6J5GT with a pair of 5998 tubes. Except for needing more volume than usual the sound is quite good. More to follow...*


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## mordy

It was a long time ago when I last listened to my Euforia with 6J5GT tubes. Since then I have learnt much more about the 6J5 family tubes and found a couple of favorite tubes. 
ATM I am listening to the Euforia (and the Elise would sound very similar) with a pair of early 1950 tall metal base Sylvania 6J5GT tubes and a pair of Tung Sol 5998 tubes. The sound is very good with a meaty, satisfying bass and low midrange. Light, airy and detailed sound with great bass.
I changed my mind - this combination is really good. IMHO it is very worthwhile to try the Elise/Eforia with a pair of 6J5G/GT drivers. All you need are the 6SN7 to 6N7 adapters and the rest is plug and play. Except for the Sylvania tubes mentioned above Tung Sol tubes are also excellent. The L63 ST type can be very pricey; the GT (straight glass) are much less if bought right (Langrex) and I am sure that they will sound very good.
Every time I take a picture of my amps I notice dust particles that I don't notice in daily use. Just found a way to avoid this problem - a night shot:




Well - almost lol...


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## TLO

mordy said:


> It was a long time ago when I last listened to my Euforia with 6J5GT tubes. Since then I have learnt much more about the 6J5 family tubes and found a couple of favorite tubes.
> ATM I am listening to the Euforia (and the Elise would sound very similar) with a pair of early 1950 tall metal base Sylvania 6J5GT tubes and a pair of Tung Sol 5998 tubes. The sound is very good with a meaty, satisfying bass and low midrange. Light, airy and detailed sound with great bass.
> I changed my mind - this combination is really good. IMHO it is very worthwhile to try the Elise/Eforia with a pair of 6J5G/GT drivers. All you need are the 6SN7 to 6N7 adapters and the rest is plug and play. Except for the Sylvania tubes mentioned above Tung Sol tubes are also excellent. The L63 ST type can be very pricey; the GT (straight glass) are much less if bought right (Langrex) and I am sure that they will sound very good.
> Every time I take a picture of my amps I notice dust particles that I don't notice in daily use. Just found a way to avoid this problem - a night shot:
> ...


Unfortunately, my amp Line Magnetic LM508, doesnt have enough space for the ST bottle, guess I will just look into the GT bottle with the new smaller adapter. Thanks a lot for the input.


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## mordy

TLO said:


> Unfortunately, my amp Line Magnetic LM508, doesnt have enough space for the ST bottle, guess I will just look into the GT bottle with the new smaller adapter. Thanks a lot for the input.


There is an inelegant way around it - by stacking socket savers you can put one tube higher than the other one and make it fit.


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## TLO

mordy said:


> There is an inelegant way around it - by stacking socket savers you can put one tube higher than the other one and make it fit.


 Brilliant!!! Never think of that...LOL


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## shafat777 (Jul 15, 2022)

Tonight's flavor : GEC 6v6GT ft. PSVANE KT88 as power tube.

Smooth, lush, holographic.


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## mordy

Everything goes better with Coke...It's true!
Two late 30's coke bottle 6J5G tubes labeled Wards Airline and Wizard sound great!


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