# What's the next step up from the Audioengine A5's



## Aiml3ss

[size=medium]Hey gang,
   
  I took a 6 month hiatus away from Head-Fi and it feels damn good to be back! The last time I was here you guys convinced me to get the A5's and I have never looked back. So, I need help one more time for you all to point me in the right direction.
   
  I absolutely adore my A5's. The crispness of the highs and smooth mids have left me impressed every single time I turn them on. The only problem I have right now is that my dads old Polkaudio speakers hooked up to a Luxman R-115 (which many believe is one of the better music recievers made in the past 25 years!) that absolutely destroyed the soundstage and clarity that I thought I had in my A5's. Don't get me wrong the A5's still kick the crap out of anyone elses speakers i've listened to but my dad being a semi-audiophile, honesty those speakers seriously rock!
   
  I understand that powered speakers have their limitations and that going to passive speakers with a good reciever is probably the best route. With that being said, what would you recommend without killing my wallet whether that be powered or passive speakers with a reciever. 
   
  FYI, right now I use my MBP > Musiland 06 > A5's. 
   
  P.S. I didn't know whether to post this in the Computer Audio forum or here. Sorry if its wrong! 
   
  Thanks!​[/size]


----------



## dgbiker1

Define "killing your wallet". What is your budget?
  For around $500, I like the Usher S-520. I almost bought a pair, but it's worth considering that $500 is a good chunk towards a solid pair of speakers. I ended up skipping the Ushers, thinking I would use the $500 towards a pair of Monitor Audio RX-6s. I ultimately splurged a bit and bought Zu Druids.


----------



## moonboy403

I have the Audioengine A5s and Adam A7s (active monitors) and the A7s destroys the A5s in any conceivable way. To me, the A5s sound really EQed and unnatural. You should definitely go to a Guitar Center near you to try out the Adam A7s.


----------



## blackzarg

The Energy RC-10 is a very good set of bookshelf speakers in it's price range ($350).
  http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/reviews/542469405/energy-rc10
   
  I would suggest going to AVSForum or Audioholics and asking around there as well.
   
  Do you already have an amp or a receiver? If not, you'll need to get one as well in order to power them.


----------



## VALIENTE

Paradigm Atom + Trends Audio 10.1 amp.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  P.S. This is my first post in the hi-end forum.


----------



## DaveBSC

The Swan M200 MkIII is way better than any Audioengine, no amp required. They cost $400. If you're going to go the passive route, expect to spend more than that, perhaps considerably more. I would suggest an integrated amp over an A/V receiver. Don't waste your money on cheap DACs, gutless multi-channel amplifiers and video switching if you're not going to use any of it.
   
  Considering you have a limited budget, you'll want to look on Audiogon for deals. Something like an Arcam or Musical Fidelity integrated combined with a decent pair of monitors (Paradigm, Neat, Castle, Monitor Audio, Totem, Silverline, take your pick) for $1000-1500 will easily beat nearfield monitors, most of which have the warmth and musicality of a slab of concrete.


----------



## Marcus_C

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Considering you have a limited budget, you'll want to look on Audiogon for deals. Something like an Arcam or Musical Fidelity integrated combined with a decent pair of monitors (Paradigm, Neat, Castle, Monitor Audio, Totem, Silverline, take your pick) for $1000-1500 will easily beat nearfield monitors, most of which have the warmth and musicality of a slab of concrete.


 

 Second that, either that or private sellers on ebay. If you go the passive route i'd recommend the MA gs10's, b&w cm5's are good for a slightly warmer sound and if you can find them dynaudio speakers are pretty much all good (X12/X16's maybe or focus 110). As for amp, if you get MA they pair well with arcam amps, b&w with rotel? dynaudio i tried with naim and rega amps, they all sound pretty good, just some recommendations.


----------



## odigg

Quote: 





moonboy403 said:


> I have the Audioengine A5s and Adam A7s (active monitors) and the A7s destroys the A5s in any conceivable way. To me, the A5s sound really EQed and unnatural. You should definitely go to a Guitar Center near you to try out the Adam A7s.


 

 100% Agree.  The Adams are just amazing.  The have a sense of soundstage and imaging I've never heard from a speaker that is purely cone driver driven.  They are really flat and with the built in room EQ you can get a flat response from 50hz - 20khz.
   
  If you want to see some measurements, look at iXBT Labs


----------



## gsawdy

While your are there, check out the Dynaudio BM5a's.  They are available on ebay for ~600-650. 
  Be sure you take music you know very well.
   
  George


----------



## Aiml3ss

Thanks for all the great replies. I thought I was sure of getting passives with an amp or reciever but a good chunk of you thought powered speakers are great as well.
   
  As for "killing my wallet" I would like to spend $500 hundred ish for speakers new or used. As for an amp or reciever if I go the passive route, not sure.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Paradigm Atom + Trends Audio 10.1 amp.


 
  Those have excellent reviews and they are under $500. I could probably find them cheaper used. I really like the look of the speakers!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  How good is that combo?
   
  Also the B&W CM5 and the MA GS10 look lovely. How do those compare with the Paradigm Atom?
   
   
  Quote: 





> Considering you have a limited budget, you'll want to look on Audiogon for deals. Something like an Arcam or Musical Fidelity integrated combined with a decent pair of monitors (Paradigm, Neat, Castle, Monitor Audio, Totem, Silverline, take your pick) for $1000-1500 will easily beat nearfield monitors, most of which have the warmth and musicality of a slab of concrete.


 
  I think this is the route I would like to go. I've read that passive speakers with a good amp kick the crap out of MOST powered speakers PLUS it's way easier to upgrade in the future.
   
  If I were to spend $500 ish on passive speakers and $150 ish on an amp, what would be the best pair?
   
  Thanks again for all your guys help! This is why I love Head-fi!


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> If I were to spend $500 ish on passive speakers and $150 ish on an amp, what would be the best pair?
> Thanks again for all your guys help! This is why I love Head-fi!


 

 There are NAD and Rotel amps on Audiogon available for less than $200. That might be a good place to start. New Silverline Minuets are on sale on Audiogon for $469. Or just do a search for Speakers: Monitors and put in a minimum and maximum price range.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> There are NAD and Rotel amps on Audiogon available for less than $200. That might be a good place to start. New Silverline Minuets are on sale on Audiogon for $469. Or just do a search for Speakers: Monitors and put in a minimum and maximum price range.


 
   
  What exactly do I look for in an amp? I don't have much experience with them so sorry. 
   
  And regarding speaker selection. There seems to be sooo many different choices out there. Can I really go wrong with any of the passive speakers mentioned in this thread? And do some of these brands cater to certain genres better then the others? 
  
  EDIT:
   
  I've been doing research for the past hour and it seems like the B&W CM5, Monitor Audio Silver RX1 (Or GS10 I dont know which one is better!), any dynaudio, and the Adam A7 all have wonderful reviews. Now, if you were going to pick any of these listed, which would you and why? And with this pick, which amp?
   
  Again, sorry to bombard this thread. I get a little to excited with this stuff!


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> EDIT:
> I've been doing research for the past hour and it seems like the B&W CM5, Monitor Audio Silver RX1 (Or GS10 I dont know which one is better!), any dynaudio, and the Adam A7 all have wonderful reviews. Now, if you were going to pick any of these listed, which would you and why? And with this pick, which amp?
> 
> Again, sorry to bombard this thread. I get a little to excited with this stuff!


 
   
  I'm not a particular fan of B&W speakers. Most Monitor Audio products on the other hand are excellent. The Gold GS series is a notch above the Silver series, and is Monitor's second best. The GS10 would be a great choice. Dynaudio (for me at least) is very hit and miss.
   
  I have not heard the A7s, but I generally do not like studio monitors. Every studio monitor that I have experienced has been a cold, clinical sounding piece of equipment for a mixing engineer to do his job with, and not something I got any enjoyment from whatsoever.
   
  As for the amp, I don't know what everything sounds like, so I would suggest searching out reviews once you have a few choices in mind. The GS10 is an 8 Ohm speaker, which is probably a spec you should stick to. It's not a great idea to run a 6 or 4 Ohm speaker on a budget amp. Even with a speaker that stays around 8 Ohms, it's important to avoid under-amping. A clipping amplifier is a great way to ruin those new speakers. I would suggest looking for something that produces at least 50W into 8 Ohms. If it can double that amount (or at least get close to doubling it) into 4 Ohms, that's usually a good sign. If you listen at very high volumes, the more watts the better.
  
  Also, if you're looking at new A7s, remember that studio monitors are sold individually, as opposed to consumer speakers which are usually by the pair. So a pair of new A7s would be $1000. If you can drop $500 on an integrated amp to go with $500 speakers rather than $200, the resulting sound will be a lot better.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Awesome response. To clarify, i've pushed my budget for speakers up to 600 ish and my amp to 400 ish. I would like to spend under 1k on speaker amp combo. 

 Why did you not like the b&w's? They have great reviews. 

 I'm going to keep an eye on audiogon for the gs10's, rx1 and cm1. I will try to get an integrated rotel amp to power them. Does this sound like a good plan? Or should I switch/add some other speaker in my 'watch list'?

 Thanks for your help so far!


----------



## DaveBSC

B&W's tonal balance tends to lean towards the cool, dry and analytical side. With a truly reference grade speaker this isn't necessarily a deal breaker, but with affordable models where significant compromises have to be made, I prefer a speaker that leans in the other direction - something that smooths over flaws, rather than shining a spotlight on them.
   
  Some speakers on Audiogon right now that I think would be great choices - Paradigm Studio 20 V3 ($450), NHT Classic 3 ($495), Castle Acoustics Warwick 3 ($450), Onix Ref1 Mk2 ($400 and 450), Gradient Prelude ($500) - big question mark on this one. I don't know much about it, but it certainly looks interesting. Canton Ergo 603 ($550), and the Silverline Minuet which is on special at $469. 
   
You should be able to easily find reviews for just about all of these with a Google search. 
   
As for amps, there are two that stick out for me at around the $500 range - Musical Fidelity A3 ($550) and NAD C372 ($525). Both have ample levels of power for any of the above mentioned monitors. The MF probably has the edge on detail, but it may be a bit bright paired with the NHT, or Canton. It should do very well with the Castle and Onix especially. The NAD's is pretty neutral and should work with pretty much anything, and its defeatable tone controls will allow you to adjust the treble to your liking.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Amazing response Dave. 

 After quick google searches, I have come to the conclusion that all of these speaker suggested are terrific as with the amps. 

 I am leaning toward buying the music fidelity A3 since it provides more clarity and has more reviews then the Cambridge. 

 With that being said, out of these speakers you suggested, which one would you personally pick that would get the most for your money?

 You've been such a big help so far!


----------



## sonance

I recommend a pair of Gallo Stradas if you are OK with external amplification. Especially helpful if you happen to be auditioning home stereo amps and equipment, I like having two amps to compare so I usually have an extra amp around, and find that a good set of nearfield friendly speakers and even moderately priced amps when well matched can really shine.
  The A'Diva Tis are a nice second choice if you dont want to stretch your budget.
   
  If you'd rather stick with powered monitors, the Dynaudio MC-15 sounded pretty good to me at a local studio, and so did the Adam A7.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> I am leaning toward buying the music fidelity A3 since it provides more clarity and has more reviews then the Cambridge.
> 
> With that being said, out of these speakers you suggested, which one would you personally pick that would get the most for your money?
> 
> You've been such a big help so far!


 

 The Musical Fidelity would be my choice of the two as well. As for speakers, I can narrow it down to three - the Paradigm, the Castle, and the Onix. Choosing among those is going to depend on your tastes and the kind of music you listen to.
   
  The Paradigm and the Onix will have the edge over the Castle in dynamics and their ability to hit bass notes hard. If that's important, I would go with one of those over the Castle. On the other hand, if you're looking for a speaker that excels with jazz, light classical, and acoustic music, and has a smooth velvety signature, the Castle is the way to go. Choosing between the Onix and Paradigm is tough. If it were my money, I think it would be on the Onix, as I think it has a better tweeter.
   
  If you're planning to place the speakers very close to the wall - both the Paradigm and Castle are front ported, and will work better in this configuration than the Onix.
   
  Good luck!


----------



## mamba315

Quote: 





sonance said:


> I recommend a pair of Gallo Stradas if you are OK with external amplification.


 
   
  x2
   
  I had the A5's for about a year, until I grew tired of their inability to handle acoustic music to my satisfaction.
   
  Replaced with Gallo Stradas driven by a Virtue amp.


----------



## moonboy403

I would liken the sound of the Adam A7 to my K1000/Manley Stingray rig but with much better soundstage and imaging but not as detailed. So if you like the K701, you'll love the K1000 and the Adam A7s.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> The Musical Fidelity would be my choice of the two as well. As for speakers, I can narrow it down to three - the Paradigm, the Castle, and the Onix. Choosing among those is going to depend on your tastes and the kind of music you listen to.
> 
> The Paradigm and the Onix will have the edge over the Castle in dynamics and their ability to hit bass notes hard. If that's important, I would go with one of those over the Castle. On the other hand, if you're looking for a speaker that excels with jazz, light classical, and acoustic music, and has a smooth velvety signature, the Castle is the way to go. Choosing between the Onix and Paradigm is tough. If it were my money, I think it would be on the Onix, as I think it has a better tweeter.
> 
> ...


 

 Wow this is so great to get help from someone who knows what their talking about! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I was planning on getting a sub later on down the road but now that I think about it, a lot of my music has tough bass notes. I listen to a lot of alternative/rock and old school hip-hop that have various types of bass to handle. I also listen to jazz and acoustic music quite a bit.
   
  I did some googling and found out that people liked the Onix over the Paradigms. Which means I am now down to 2 speakers to choose from!
   
  If you were planning on attaining a subwoofer down the road, between the Onix and Castle which would you choose? I am leaning towards the Onix since they look cosmetically better.
   
  Again, thanks so much for taking your time to help a clueless soul like me.
   
  EDIT: I wonder if front-ported speakers are the way to go since I plan on using the speakers in my bedroom. Hmm...
   
  Here are some going rates for speakers as of now:
   
  Onix Ref 1 ($450 used)
 Paradigm Studio 20 ($450 used)
 B&W CM1 ($600 used) (I know some people don't like these but they have very good reviews and look nice + I threw them in there for a price perspective)


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> If you were planning on attaining a subwoofer down the road, between the Onix and Castle which would you choose? I am leaning towards the Onix since they look cosmetically better.
> Again, thanks so much for taking your time to help a clueless soul like me.
> 
> EDIT: I wonder if front-ported speakers are the way to go since I plan on using the speakers in my bedroom. Hmm...


 
   
  I'd probably go with the Onix. I actually prefer the looks of the Castle with its classic British ProAC Response style design, but I think the Onix is the more well rounded speaker sonically, and you'll probably enjoy it more with rock and hip-hop.
   
  The rear port on the Onix should only be an issue if you plan to place them less than 2 feet or so from the wall. Getting too close with a rear ported speaker can cause the bass to become boomy or muddy sounding.
   
  You're welcome 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Oh, and the Onix Ref1s that are on Audiogon for $400 are in better shape than the pair that is going for $450. (And $50 cheaper, of course).


----------



## Aiml3ss

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Oh, and the Onix Ref1s that are on Audiogon for $400 are in better shape than the pair that is going for $450. (And $50 cheaper, of course).


 

 This seems like a helluva deal. Arn't they 1200 new?
   
  Also is this a good price for a MF A3?


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

X2 on the Adam Audio recommendation. I replaced my AudioEngine A5's with the Adam A5's. Much more neutral, balanced and they really do go down to 50Hz, but with definition. No more zippy, sizzling cymbals... just definition and resolution... 
  
  Quote: 





moonboy403 said:


> I have the Audioengine A5s and Adam A7s (active monitors) and the A7s destroys the A5s in any conceivable way. To me, the A5s sound really EQed and unnatural. You should definitely go to a Guitar Center near you to try out the Adam A7s.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> This seems like a helluva deal. Arn't they 1200 new?


 

 Yep, or at least they were, I'm pretty sure they have been discontinued. I think that's a reasonable price on the Musical Fidelity. You can always talk to the seller and see if there's any room for negotiation.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Awesome. I will contact him.
   
  Thanks for you help! I will probably write a little review in a month or so. Look out for it!


----------



## BaboonGuy

subbed for interest (and this is the only way to reliable sub)


----------



## Aiml3ss

Oh I forgot to ask one more thing Dave or anyone else,
   
  What are some good stands that work well with the Onix? I have custom built ones for my A5's but they are probably the worst craftsmanship anyone has ever seen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 At least I tried! 
   
  Preferably something that isn't too expensive. Obviously I'll try to buy used.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





baboonguy said:


> subbed for interest (and this is the only way to reliable sub)


 

 Um, I've had no problems at all with the "subscribe" button at the top of the thread.


----------



## mochimon

for amplification you may want to look a bit further down the tripath... um.. path. (the trends amp that was recommended earlier is a tripath amp).  audiomagus.com sells a few different models.  i bought a pop-pulse t-70 (now discontinued) from them a few years ago and have been very happy with it.  these amps are dead-quiet - very black - and some can surprisingly get quite a bit of power to your speakers. 
   
  also, there were some recommendations for the silverline audio minuets: i am currently running these off my pop-pulse and have to say, they are very finicky little speakers.  with voice and most strings they are so astoundingly brilliant my jaw drops every time, but with most other music they sound not unlike the rather lacklustre audioengine A5's (especially for electronic, hip-hop, and rock).  its very strange to be listening to Radiohead or the XX and have the vocals coming through so beautifully, while all the backup sounds like garbage.
   
  also, i second the Adam monitor suggestion.  I have auditioned these with an Apogee Duet and Apple Lossless files and have been utterly blown away.  however, it is worth noting that these speakers, being rather high-end studio monitors, are incredibly revealing - they will make poorly mastered tracks sound like crap (but also, well engineered pieces sound like heaven).  so if you listen to a lot of underground, up-and-coming, type stuff, this may not be the setup for you.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> What are some good stands that work well with the Onix? I have custom built ones for my A5's but they are probably the worst craftsmanship anyone has ever seen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The higher quality Sanus stands may work. They sell for around $120-300. I'm not sure what Tyler Acoustics charges for their stands, but they sure are pretty. Before buying anything, you'll probably want to either contact AV123, or find a manual for the Onix Ref 1 so you know what the recommended height is.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Quote: 





			
				mochimon said:
			
		

> also, there were some recommendations for the silverline audio minuets: i am currently running these off my pop-pulse and have to say, they are very finicky little speakers.  with voice and most strings they are so astoundingly brilliant my jaw drops every time, but with most other music they sound not unlike the rather lacklustre audioengine A5's (especially for electronic, hip-hop, and rock).  its very strange to be listening to Radiohead or the XX and have the vocals coming through so beautifully, while all the backup sounds like garbage.


 

 I looked at these. For the price, the Onix seem like the better buy since new they were sub 1k. I might try those if I don't like the Onix's.
   
   
  Quote: 





> The higher quality Sanus stands may work. They sell for around $120-300. I'm not sure what Tyler Acoustics charges for their stands, but they sure are pretty. Before buying anything, you'll probably want to either contact AV123, or find a manual for the Onix Ref 1 so you know what the recommended height is.


 
  Ill check those out. I emailed one of the sellers on Audiogon to get more pictures of the stands he is selling with the Onix's. For $75 bucks they seem like a good deal.


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

It's all about power really.
   
  The reason your Dad's old Luxman receiver  & Polkaudio speakers sounded so much better than the Audioengines is because they put out ~ 3 times as much power and move far more air. Particularly in the low bass where you 'feel' as much as 'hear' the music. A5 says they go down to 50Hz which would be very impressive in such a small box but I bet your Dad's would go all the way down to 20Hz. Instead of a small sweet spot a big system will fill the room. Desktop monitors will not.
   
  So you have to decide what it is you want from your proposed upgrade. 
   
  If you want a big sound you need a powerful amp (~200W) and at least 7" speaker drivers.
   
  If you just want something that might sound better than what you have and stick with the small scale then consider the ADAM A3X if you listen to more acoustic/vocal/classical and KRK Rokit 5 if you prefer electronic/dance/pop. Be warned though, like other posters have commented, if you listen on real monitors and your signal quality is poor you will know about it because that is what monitors are designed to do.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Great response Ronald.
   
  I kind of wanted a mixture of bigger sound/better sound. With the help of Dave, I have come up with a great little setup that should make my A5's sound like Bose speakers.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I will be going with the Onix Ref 1 MKII speakers paired with an Musical Fidelity A3 passed through a Audio-GD DAC13 MKIII.
   
  Now this should, in theory, be equally if not better than my dads system.
   
  Whats your take Ron?


----------



## 3X0

Excellent choice with the Reference 1 MKIIs. They are beautiful speakers and sound amazing.
   
   
  The only speakers I've heard under $1000 that I felt compete with the Ref 1s are the Ascend Sierra-1, but they retail for over $950 and are very difficult to find used. Even then I found the choice hard as I felt the Ref 1s were more detailed but the Sierra-1s were smoother at the top and less bright. The Sierra-1s would have cost twice as much as the Ref 1s cost me and that was a no-no.
   
  I preferred the Ref 1s (as well as the Sierra-1s) over the Era Design 5 and Paradigm Studio 20s, among others. With proper amplification the Adam A7s didn't come close; the Audioengine A5s were utterly destroyed.
   
   
  Also the Ref 1s will play down to about 40Hz cleanly. If you want to really leave your dad's system in the dust I'd recommend grabbing a used REL or SVS SB12-Plus subwoofer when you get the chance.


----------



## Aiml3ss

I'm glad I chose the onix's! They seem to have universal praise.



 I am definitely going to be getting a sub in the near future. I do listen to 30-40% hip hop so it's a must. What about the HSU brand? I heard there pretty good. I'll check out the subs you listed. Can the ones listed go pretty low?

 Thanks!


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> I'm glad I chose the onix's! They seem to have universal praise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 They'll go down to about 22Hz without much trouble. Sub 20Hz extension is not likely. I am speaking of the REL Strata III and the SVS SB12-Plus. The reason they don't extend very well is because they tend to employ large drivers in (relatively) small, sealed cabinets. They tend to be extremely good with music and just okay for movies. The gotcha is that the SB12-Plus is discontinued (like all legends), and the Strata III has an MSRP in the mid-1500s (used they go for the high 500s to the low 700s).
   
  You will get usable output down to 18Hz and below with (considerably) larger, ported designs. However ported designs are very expensive to implement with control and articulation. Generally under $1000 you can expect them to be extremely good with movies and just okay for music (just the inverse of sealed subs).
   
  The HSU subs are very good, especially their entry-level subwoofers, but I feel the SB12-Plus outclasses their subwoofers from similar price points ($600-800) in both sonics and finish. Epik and Rythmik also make very good subwoofers for the money that are usually well-received and well-rounded for HT and music.
   
  If you want the best-in-class many consider the JL Audio Fathom series to be the best subwoofer series under tens of thousands of dollars. Their performance is legendary in both music and movies with great extension without compromises.
   
  If you're handy with DIY you can actually build a subwoofer that will perform very close to or better than the multi-thousand-dollar Fathoms for well under a grand from partsexpress.
   
   
  22Hz extension is more than fine for music, though. 20Hz and below is mostly employed in Low Frequency Effects for movies (rumbling and stuff) and is used in music almost 0% of the time. So I still recommend a sealed design for amazing music performance (speed, articulation) with a reasonable size and price.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Wow, very nice and detailed response.
   
  I do not need a movie sub. This is only music. The SVS looks cosmetically wonderful. I will do some googling about the Rel Strata. 
   
  I wish I was handy at DIY but you should see my custom made speaker stands for my A5's... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So for music you would still recommend the SVS and the REL over the HSU and JB's?


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> It's all about power really.
> 
> The reason your Dad's old Luxman receiver  & Polkaudio speakers sounded so much better than the Audioengines is because they put out ~ 3 times as much power and move far more air. Particularly in the low bass where you 'feel' as much as 'hear' the music. A5 says they go down to 50Hz which would be very impressive in such a small box but I bet your Dad's would go all the way down to 20Hz. Instead of a small sweet spot a big system will fill the room. Desktop monitors will not.
> 
> If you want a big sound you need a powerful amp (~200W) and at least 7" speaker drivers.


 

 Sound pressure level and sound quality are two entirely different things. It takes a hell of a lot more than a big amp and some big drivers to achieve truly great sound. A 30W pure Class A amp paired with some efficient speakers could sound superb. If you're talking just deep bass than yes, you need a strong amp and a large driver, multiple drivers, or some engineering tricks like a transmission line enclosure, there's no getting around that.
   
  However, once you get above 40Hz which is where the vast majority of musical information is, how big your woofer is and how much amp you've got is largely irrelevant. Quality is far more important than quantity. I can't count the number of two-way monitors that will send big 5-driver floor standers home crying (except when asked to reproduce 25Hz from a synthesizer).
   
  Matching the speaker to the room is also critical. In smaller spaces, stand-mounted two-way monitors will outperform floorstanders that are out of their element pretty much every time.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> So for music you would still recommend the SVS and the REL over the HSU and JB's?


 

 Absolutely. The SB12-Plus and Strata III are very close, with the slight edge to the REL. I have seen many Strata's go used but have yet to see a used SB12-Plus for sale -- I guess they must be keepers.
   
  The REL is definitely the best you can get for music from a value perspective. I like the SVS a lot because it has a ton of features that no other subwoofer near its price point offers, including room compensation and parametric EQ. The finish is beautiful and there are a lot of small touches, like magnetic grill covers.
   
  If you can't find a used SB12-Plus or Strata III, the HSU VTF-3 is also a very good choice. Also if you're scouring the used market a Martin Logan Grotto, Descent, or Depth would be an excellent choice. The Descent and Depth in particular would give the REL a run for its money for music -- they are triple-drivers that go low loudly and cleanly with speed and authority.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Great. I will keep my eyes peeled for the Rel or SVS. Its too bad the SVS is not seen commonly on audiogon... I love the way it looks and how small it is. 
   
  If I can't get the Rel or SVS I will definetly try and get the HSU. The other subs you mentioned I did a quick look on audiogon and there a bit out of my price range. 
   
  I really think the SVS would be perfect for the size of my room and it would almost match my Onix's. 
   
  Thanks for your suggestions! I love the wealth of knowledge here on head-fi. It continues to amaze me.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> Also if you're scouring the used market a Martin Logan Grotto, Descent, or Depth would be an excellent choice. The Descent and Depth in particular would give the REL a run for its money for music -- they are triple-drivers that go low loudly and cleanly with speed and authority.


 

 I'm a fan of most REL products and SVS I think makes pretty good stuff, but I can't recommend Martin Logan. Every ML sub I've heard as been a huge disappointment. A particularly bad example was a Descent in a very high-end, treated room paired with Avalon Eidolons. The Descent in this application flat out sucked. It couldn't keep up, it called attention to itself like it had a glowing neon sign on it saying "Look at me! I'm not blending with the speakers AT ALL!", and it struggled to achieve even a moderately realistic volume without sounding like it was bottoming out. One of the worst subs I've ever heard.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> I'm a fan of most REL products and SVS I think makes pretty good stuff, but I can't recommend Martin Logan. Every ML sub I've heard as been a huge disappointment. A particularly bad example was a Descent in a very high-end, treated room paired with Avalon Eidolons. The Descent in this application flat out sucked. It couldn't keep up, it called attention to itself like it had a glowing neon sign on it saying "Look at me! I'm not blending with the speakers AT ALL!", and it struggled to achieve even a moderately realistic volume without sounding like it was bottoming out. One of the worst subs I've ever heard.


 

 I only had some experience with a Grotto and I felt that the synergy was good with my Reference 1s, but it didn't blend as well with the Magnepan 1.6QRs I had before. I think they'd mate well with the Reference 1s but I do like my SB12-Plus better. The Grotto I had didn't call attention to itself with the Ref 1s but did with my 1.6QRs.
   
  In which case it might be best to hold out for the SVS or REL since they integrate well with almost anything.


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

Quote: 





> Sound pressure level and sound quality are two entirely different things


 
   
  Quite. However the point still stands.
   
  I'm prepared to bet that if I applied a low pass filter which modeled the roll off characteristics of the AudioEngine A5 moofer to the OP's Dad's system and sat him in the sweet spot of both then there wouldn't be a lot of difference in terms of perceived  audio quality. He might even prefer the A5s.
   
  What makes the difference is the balance and weight from the bass which adds gravitas to the music. It's always going to be a bigger sound than what you will get from a bookshelf or desktop sized enclosure. No matter how loud you play or how much you pay.
   
  That's why the OP's (& I suspect that of many other audiophiles atm) central dilemna is less about which particular brands to buy but a choice between a traditional full range floorstander system or a combination of  mini monitors and a sub woofer.
   
  Nowadays it is relatively easy and inexpensive to beat the pants off his Dad's old system in every department except the crucial bottom two octaves and he will never do that convincingly without a relatively large driver and a powerful amplifier somewhere in his system.  
   
   
  Quote: 





> I will be going with the Onix Ref 1 MKII speakers paired with an Musical Fidelity A3 passed through a Audio-GD DAC13 MKIII.
> 
> Now this should, in theory, be equally if not better than my dads system.
> 
> Whats your take Ron?


 
   
  I'm not personally familiar with any of the components but, like I say above, I strongly suspect you will prefer that to your Dad's except in the bottom end.
   
  If you listen to classical or acoustic/folk music a lot or prefer low listening levels then that might not bother you much and if so best of luck. Otherwise I'd look for a way of dividing your budget up differently so you could afford a sub or larger loudspeakers.
   
  I think you are proportionally overspending on your choice of DAC anyway. I'm loath to criticise a company who's products I am unfamilar with but there is something not quite right about a company that offers DACs in a selection of ranges based on 'flavours' or audio colouration introduced. All DACs should be transparent not 'Musical' or 'Warm' or 'Neutral'. After all, once audio is in the digital domain it is a trivial matter to manipulate it in any manner you wish anyway. Why buy a DAC with a designed in 'flavour' you can never change?


----------



## Aiml3ss

Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> I think you are proportionally overspending on your choice of DAC anyway. I'm loath to criticise a company who's products I am unfamilar with but there is something not quite right about a company that offers DACs in a selection of ranges based on 'flavours' or audio colouration introduced. All DACs should be transparent not 'Musical' or 'Warm' or 'Neutral'. After all, once audio is in the digital domain it is a trivial matter to manipulate it in any manner you wish anyway. Why buy a DAC with a designed in 'flavour' you can never change?


 
  Actually, the DAC I purchased is reviewed as one of the most transparent DAC's ever. I did not purchase any of the so called 'flavour' DAC's from that company. I encourage you to read some of the reviews on this device. It seems to have universal praise.
   
  Plus I got it for $250 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Seems to be a helluva deal.
   
  But I will do what you suggested. I am going to be purchasing a sub in the near future.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> What makes the difference is the balance and weight from the bass which adds gravitas to the music. It's always going to be a bigger sound than what you will get from a bookshelf or desktop sized enclosure. No matter how loud you play or how much you pay.
> 
> That's why the OP's (& I suspect that of many other audiophiles atm) central dilemna is less about which particular brands to buy but a choice between a traditional full range floorstander system or a combination of  mini monitors and a sub woofer.


 

 I don't agree. There's a lot more that depends on the music being listened to, and many other factors that contribute to overall sound quality that have little to nothing to do with frequency range. Yes filling in that bottom end makes a difference but I've found that as I continue to listen to more and more components and systems and refine my tastes further and further, I find that 20-40Hz range to be of less and less consequence as to whether I like the sound of a system or not.
   
  The prime attributes that really move me these days are imaging and soundstaging, the sense of "air" around instruments and performers, and most importantly, detail. Given the choice between a two-way monitor with a state of the art ribbon, ring radiator or diamond dome tweeter paired with a top quality 5 - 7" woofer and a range of 45Hz and up or a floorstander with an average soft dome and 3 or 4 bass drivers that goes down to 25Hz, I'll take the monitor in a heart beat. It's nice if the deep bass is there, but if that's all the system has to offer I'll be bored with it in a second. On the other hand, if a system produces a soundstage that seems to extend beyond the walls of the listening space, if it sounds like the like speakers have disappeared and I'm listening to live performers, and I'm hearing every last drop of recorded detail, and yet the system is all out of ideas at 50Hz, I'll be happy to listen for days.


----------



## noinimod

DaveBSC: I totally agree with what you said. Thing is, when a sub is well-integrated into a stereo setup, it more often than not creates an illusion of a more expansive and immersive sound-stage.. for whatever reason, lol.
   
  i crossover my rythmik f12 @ 50hz. There's surprisingly a healthy dose of bass information in the 30-40+ Hz region (not so much the 20+, though it is there for those rare, few songs). Since most bookshelves that are meant for near field usage do not extend to 40hz, there's quite a bit of bass info one can be missing out on w/o a sub. Unfortunately, good subs never come cheap =\


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

Great observation *DaveBSC.** *
  
  I achieved SQ and balance with my Merlin TSM-MXe's and my Manley Stingray running in triode mode (<20w/ch), that was on par with my buddy's Lamm 1.1 Reference monoblocks and Meridian setup. System synergy and component matching are key parameters when creating a great sounding system. 
   
   
  Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Sound pressure level and sound quality are two entirely different things. It takes a hell of a lot more than a big amp and some big drivers to achieve truly great sound. A 30W pure Class A amp paired with some efficient speakers could sound superb. If you're talking just deep bass than yes, you need a strong amp and a large driver, multiple drivers, or some engineering tricks like a transmission line enclosure, there's no getting around that.
> 
> However, once you get above 40Hz which is where the vast majority of musical information is, how big your woofer is and how much amp you've got is largely irrelevant. Quality is far more important than quantity. I can't count the number of two-way monitors that will send big 5-driver floor standers home crying (except when asked to reproduce 25Hz from a synthesizer).
> 
> Matching the speaker to the room is also critical. In smaller spaces, stand-mounted two-way monitors will outperform floorstanders that are out of their element pretty much every time.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> I don't agree. There's a lot more that depends on the music being listened to, and many other factors that contribute to overall sound quality that have little to nothing to do with frequency range. Yes filling in that bottom end makes a difference but I've found that as I continue to listen to more and more components and systems and refine my tastes further and further, I find that 20-40Hz range to be of less and less consequence as to whether I like the sound of a system or not.
> The prime attributes that really move me these days are imaging and soundstaging, the sense of "air" around instruments and performers, and most importantly, detail. Given the choice between a two-way monitor with a state of the art ribbon, ring radiator or diamond dome tweeter paired with a top quality 5 - 7" woofer and a range of 45Hz and up or a floorstander with an average soft dome and 3 or 4 bass drivers that goes down to 25Hz, I'll take the monitor in a heart beat. It's nice if the deep bass is there, but if that's all the system has to offer I'll be bored with it in a second. On the other hand, if a system produces a soundstage that seems to extend beyond the walls of the listening space, if it sounds like the like speakers have disappeared and I'm listening to live performers, and I'm hearing every last drop of recorded detail, and yet the system is all out of ideas at 50Hz, I'll be happy to listen for days.


 
  Quote: 





noinimod said:


> i crossover my rythmik f12 @ 50hz. There's surprisingly a healthy dose of bass information in the 30-40+ Hz region (not so much the 20+, though it is there for those rare, few songs). Since most bookshelves that are meant for near field usage do not extend to 40hz, there's quite a bit of bass info one can be missing out on w/o a sub. Unfortunately, good subs never come cheap =\


 
  These are both good points that I agree with. Bass Mekanik makes the bassiest music I play when testing systems and his tracks very rarely peak below 30Hz. As you approach and descend below 20Hz you are entering home theater territory. Yet adding a sub did add something to the perceived atmosphere, especially with recordings of live performances.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Quote: 





noinimod said:


> DaveBSC: I totally agree with what you said. Thing is, when a sub is well-integrated into a stereo setup, it more often than not creates an illusion of a more expansive and immersive sound-stage.. for whatever reason, lol.
> 
> i crossover my rythmik f12 @ 50hz. There's surprisingly a healthy dose of bass information in the 30-40+ Hz region (not so much the 20+, though it is there for those rare, few songs). Since most bookshelves that are meant for near field usage do not extend to 40hz, there's quite a bit of bass info one can be missing out on w/o a sub. Unfortunately, good subs never come cheap =\


 

 How do you like your Rythmik F12 sub? I am debating between an SVS, REL and MA. How does it compare with those?
   
  Sorry to hijack your guys discussion. Wish I understood more of what you are all talking about. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Its quite entertaining though.


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

It's amazing what a good sub will do to open up the midrange, expand the soundstage. 
  
  Quote: 





3x0 said:


> These are both good points that I agree with. Bass Mekanik makes the bassiest music I play when testing systems and his tracks very rarely peak below 30Hz. As you approach and descend below 20Hz you are entering home theater territory. Yet adding a sub did add something to the perceived atmosphere, especially with recordings of live performances.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





noinimod said:


> DaveBSC: I totally agree with what you said. Thing is, when a sub is well-integrated into a stereo setup, it more often than not creates an illusion of a more expansive and immersive sound-stage.. for whatever reason, lol.


 

 That is true, but the key is getting it right which can be extremely difficult. When the sub blends perfectly, it sounds as if it's transparent extension of the main channel's response which can considerably improve performance. When it doesn't blend perfectly, you have a box in the corner shouting attention to itself and ruining the experience.


----------



## RonaldDumsfeld

Dave. I am quite sure what you say is true for yourself and many other people besides.
   
  In this particular case the OP wanted something that improved on his Dad's old system. In every regard.
   
  Since I figure that the AudioEngine's would already be pretty close, if not already superior, to the mid and high frequency ranges in his Dad's system then what the critical ingredient might well be is the extra bass extension. So.  If he bought a system that only lowered his bottom end by 10Hz he might find himself having spent a lot of money and being disappointed.
   
  Hopefully you will be proved correct and he won't miss the bottom and still be able to enjoy the cleaner top end. I suspect he will want a sub. I hope he tells us.
   
  The reason I am interested in this thread is because I am in a very similar position to the OP.
   
  Current FoH system is very similar to the OP's Dad. A classic Japanese receiver Kenwood KR-V7040 which dumps up to 120W a side into a pair of TDL RTL 3s. This is a transmission line design from the early 9Ts with twin woofers. Effortlessly fills a 7mx5mx2m room. All day and night. With up to 30 people dancing.
   
  That was nearly twenty years ago and frankly it needs to be more than ticking over to come alive. It's now just too much sometimes. So I bought myself a pair of ADAM A3X to sit on my desktop between the PC and the mixer.
   
  These are frankly remarkable for the money (~£350). Especially when you consider they use the same X-ART tweeter as the most expensive model in the entire range and you get 4 quiet 25W amplifiers and an active crossover thrown in for free. In fact they are so good they are sometimes bad. Worn vinyl, overcompressed or low bitrate MP3s,   Any imperfection in the source in fact. You are aware of it. Good source? Cannot imagine anything significantly better atm.
   
  So you see the dilemna? My tiny desktop monitors are now the easily the best sound on the premises. Except for the low end. So do I bin the old system and get a Sub? Or what? Hopefully the OP himself will soon be able to shed some light?


----------



## Aiml3ss

Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> Since I figure that the AudioEngine's would already be pretty close, if not already superior, to the mid and high frequency ranges in his Dad's system then what the critical ingredient might well be is the extra bass extension. So.  If he bought a system that only lowered his bottom end by 10Hz he might find himself having spent a lot of money and being disappointed.


 

 Actually, the A5's sound very equalized and "veiled" compared to my dads system. I don't really know how to explain it better but everything from the highs to the lows just sound cleaner, more natural and not as cold as the A5's. The Luxman and Polks create a nice warm but not overly warm sound. Its fantastic.
   
  I plan on attaining a sub soon. I just ordered the Audio-GD DAC19-MKII and the Onix Ref 1 MKII speakers today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I cannot wait until they delivered. What I plan on doing as soon as the speakers come, is to hook them up right beside my dads Polk and connect them to his Luxman. I know the Polks will beat the lower but I want to compare the mids, and highs.
   
  When I get my MF A3 amp and sub (haven't decided on a specific one yet) I will PM you and let you know how I like the pairing.
   
  If you are looking for recommendations for a system with passive speakers and such, I highly recommend you ask Dave or anyone else in this thread. They seem to have wealths of knowledge in this category and I cannot thank them enough (specifically Dave) for pointing me in the right direction thus far.


----------



## noinimod

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> How do you like your Rythmik F12 sub? I am debating between an SVS, REL and MA. How does it compare with those?
> 
> Sorry to hijack your guys discussion. Wish I understood more of what you are all talking about.
> 
> ...


 
   
  The Rythmik's extremely good for music. No boom, no excessive overhang. Just clean, fast and articulate bass. I must say though, if you're looking for a sub to tear your house down with >130 dB SPL levels, the Rythmik F12's probably not for you. That's not to say it can't handle HT. It can, but you shouldn't expect as much output from it as you would from a 12" ported svs/hsu. I have heard various models of the 12" svs and hsu, and they aren't as musical as the rythmik.
   
  Plenty of people will disagree with me, but to my ears, a sealed sub always sounded more musical than a ported. That said, you tend to lose extension and output with a sealed design, so if you're a HT guy, you should be looking at ported subs. But we're all here in headfi so i guess that's a moot point.
   
  There are some charts/measurements floating around if you bother to google, martin logan and sunfire subs don't measure all that well, with quite a fair bit of distortion. Same goes for velodyne, which is IMO pretty overpriced for the quality you get.
   
  I think that the ID companies offer the best value, including but not limited to: SVS, Hsu, elemental designs, epik, rythmik, seaton sound. If you're looking for a musical sub, get one of their sealed designs and you should be set.

  
  Quote: 





ronalddumsfeld said:


> So you see the dilemna? My tiny desktop monitors are now the easily the best sound on the premises. Except for the low end. So do I bin the old system and get a Sub? Or what? Hopefully the OP himself will soon be able to shed some light?


 
  Get a sub for your setup, you won't regret it. I crossover my rythmik @ 50hz with my dynaudio bm5a and i'm loving the low end on this one.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





noinimod said:


> Get a sub for your setup, you won't regret it. I crossover my rythmik @ 50hz with my dynaudio bm5a and i'm loving the low end on this one.


 
  Do you employ a high-pass filter to the Dynaudios or do you let them run their full range? I have heard mixed opinions between strict hardware-implemented bass management between monitors and subwoofer and "by ear" tweaking of subwoofer crossovers to blend well, the latter allowing for some overlap between the sub and monitors.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





noinimod said:


> There are some charts/measurements floating around if you bother to google, martin logan and sunfire subs don't measure all that well, with quite a fair bit of distortion. Same goes for velodyne, which is IMO pretty overpriced for the quality you get.
> 
> I think that the ID companies offer the best value, including but not limited to: SVS, Hsu, elemental designs, epik, rythmik, seaton sound. If you're looking for a musical sub, get one of their sealed designs and you should be set.


 

 If there's anything worse than the ML subs, it's the Sunfires. Small woofers in tiny boxes that throw half a foot forward and back will never sound good. The lower-end Velodynes aren't anything special, but I like the Optimum and DD series. They are overpriced, but as used buys they aren't bad.
   
  Sealed designs have gentler roll-off than ported designs, and many will actually have more deep bass extension as ported subs tend to drop off a cliff when they get a bit below their port tuned frequency. They certainly can sound quicker and more musical than a mediocre ported sub, but when properly designed, ported subs can be superb. Indeed many reference grade subs such as the REL Studio III are ported designs.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> If there's anything worse than the ML subs, it's the Sunfires. Small woofers in tiny boxes that throw half a foot forward and back will never sound good. The lower-end Velodynes aren't anything special, but I like the Optimum and DD series. They are overpriced, but as used buys they aren't bad.
> Sealed designs have gentler roll-off than ported designs, and many will actually have more deep bass extension as ported subs tend to drop off a cliff when they get a bit below their port tuned frequency. They certainly can sound quicker and more musical than a mediocre ported sub, but when properly designed, ported subs can be superb. Indeed many reference grade subs such as the REL Studio III are ported designs.


 

 I do find it odd that the True and True Signature (EQ) series command very high resale values (relative to the market) and are in quite a bit of demand.
   
  I think that "musicality" in subwoofers is just a buzz word. I'm of the opinion that a subwoofer which focuses on such a narrow (albeit critical) frequency range can't possibly impart an impression of musicality like full-range speakers or headphones can. On the contrary, I feel it is the elements of speed, dynamics, and accuracy that make a subwoofer _good for music_ (not necessarily musical). And yes, ported designs are just as capable as sealed designs of producing bass that is authoritative without losing definition or speed. The compromise is a (generally) MUCH larger cabinet size. The benefit is requiring less wattage to accomplish the task and consequently being more efficient.
   
  Though I can't think of a decent (worth considering) ported subwoofer that doesn't hit lower than a comparably decent sealed sub (on a per-price-range basis). Usually the extension on the ported is at least 4Hz lower, if not more. But this doesn't really matter for music anyway. I do believe that sealed designs are generally better for music when it comes to the sub-$1000 range (used market inclusive).


----------



## DaveBSC

People want small and practical, and I guess if all you're interested in is watching Transformers on Blu-ray, a Sunfire sub is probably fine. Ask one to reproduce an upright bass though, and ugh.
   
  You may have a point about sealed subs. I certainly haven't heard even close to everything that's out there, but _most_ of the subs I've been most impressed with have been sealed designs. I also prefer stereo subs over one, every time.


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

I like paired DD Velodyne's best. They are sealed and very tuneful even with full-range Revel Salons. And they mated very well with my TSM-MXe's, which can sometimes be difficult to mate. When properly set up, the only impression of their presence is improved extension and support, especially with organ, synthesizer, etc, and the other benefits of a good quality sub-woofer. Never tried a Rel, but hear good things about 'em. 
   
  EDIT: DD series...


----------



## Aiml3ss

Hey guys just wanted to give you all an update on where my system stands.
   
  So I received the Audio-GD DAC19-MKIII today in the mail. I didn't realize it was this big! I could fit a friggin family inside it.
   
  Anyways, since my Onix's arn't here yet, I decided to hook it up to my dads Luxman and Polk speakers.
   
  HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!
   
  Am I going crazy or did this DAC just kick the crap out of everything that I had heard previously on his system?! I've never heard such detail and soundstage. Norah friggin Jones sounded like she was performing right in front of me. 
   
  Is this all placebo or can this DAC influence the masterful Luxman this much? I'm honestly speechless...


----------



## Rdr. Seraphim

Always start with the source... sounds like you hit pay-dirt! Congrats. Accustom yourself to the 'new world,' then see where it takes you next. Maybe, you won't need that sub after all!


----------



## Aiml3ss

I just can't believe it. 
   
  The bottom end sure did tighten up on the Polks though. I would say its not as pronounced as before but its way cleaner sounding. I still might need that sub for the little Onix's. 
   
  But,
   
  Time to get back to the music! This is wonderful.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Just a little update:
   
  I love everything about this DAC. I only have one concern: some tracks are seriously bright and hurt my ears. Is this because of the "garbage in, garbage out" saying? Some tracks sound truly wonderful while some are quite fatiging on my ears.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> Just a little update:
> 
> I love everything about this DAC. I only have one concern: some tracks are seriously bright and hurt my ears. Is this because of the "garbage in, garbage out" saying? Some tracks sound truly wonderful while some are quite fatiging on my ears.


 

 I suspect that the bright tracks were produced that way. Try adjusting the toe-in of the speakers, or tilt them back a bit and see if that makes a difference.


----------



## Aiml3ss

I think your right Dave. I think its entirely dependent on the recording which makes me a bit disappointed in sound engineers and what not. For instance, if you listen to one of John Mayers early albums, the siblance is atrocious. The engineers must of known this because they fixed most of it on his later albums. That might be a silly example but its what I noticed.


----------



## 3X0

There's an SB12-Plus in Oak at SVS B-stock for $549 + shipping. It's a liquidation model which means it's actually brand new and unopened, so I recommend you get it before it's snatched up what with them being discontinued and all. It's definitely one of the best subwoofers for music in the sub-2k range and a bargain at the closeout price. The closest models in performance (sub-$1000) would be used REL or Epik or Rhythmik subwoofers but they'd run you around $700+. At a little over $500 the SB12 would slaughter anything around and under its price for music response.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





aiml3ss said:


> I think your right Dave. I think its entirely dependent on the recording which makes me a bit disappointed in sound engineers and what not. For instance, if you listen to one of John Mayers early albums, the siblance is atrocious. The engineers must of known this because they fixed most of it on his later albums. That might be a silly example but its what I noticed.


 
   
  I'm usually disappointed with mixing and mastering engineers. The twin evils of trying to mix for iPod earbuds and brick walling has made a lot of recent albums quite literally unlistenable.
   
  Getting back to your decision about integrated amps, this is one area where the Arcam has the edge over the MF. If you have a bright recording that you want to listen to, you can simply dial down the Arcam's treble response for that particular album, and then set it back to flat when you're done listening. With the MF you can use speaker positioning and cabling to try and achieve a balance of response for both good and bad recordings, but there's nothing you can really do to adjust the system for an individual album.


----------



## BadassBob

If you can DIY, I highly recommend the Dynaco ST-35 kit available at Triode Electronics couple with a pair of Tekton 65Ens.  The amp will put out about 17.5WPC, which is more than enough for a pair of efficient full-rangers.  It should set you back $800 to $900 for everything.


----------



## Aiml3ss

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Getting back to your decision about integrated amps, this is one area where the Arcam has the edge over the MF. If you have a bright recording that you want to listen to, you can simply dial down the Arcam's treble response for that particular album, and then set it back to flat when you're done listening. With the MF you can use speaker positioning and cabling to try and achieve a balance of response for both good and bad recordings, but there's nothing you can really do to adjust the system for an individual album.


 

 That is a plus of getting the Arcam. I only noticed the hard brightness when I turned up the volume. At lower levels, the sibliance isn't as bad. Since, the audio-gd dac is very neutral and detailed, i still think the MF A3 would pair great with it since apparently its faily neutrel if not a bit on the warm side which could tone down the harshness in the highs. 
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> There's an SB12-Plus in Oak at SVS B-stock for $549 + shipping. It's a liquidation model which means it's actually brand new and unopened, so I recommend you get it before it's snatched up what with them being discontinued and all. It's definitely one of the best subwoofers for music in the sub-2k range and a bargain at the closeout price. The closest models in performance (sub-$1000) would be used REL or Epik or Rhythmik subwoofers but they'd run you around $700+. At a little over $500 the SB12 would slaughter anything around and under its price for music response.


 
   
  This does seem like a helluva deal. I will look into this model, thanks!


----------



## Aiml3ss

Update:
   
  Just received my Onix's and stands. First thing that hit me was how much bigger these things were then what I originally thought! This, is not a good thing but a plus in my mind.
   
  Oh my god the finish on these things are beautiful. Oak or whatever it is is stunning. 
   
  Hooked em up to the Luxman and instantly noticed how much everything was much more detailed and had that extra snap. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Even my dad was impressed by these. His words "These sound way better then mine but it doesn't fill the room as much as my Polks". I agree with this statement 100%. Much more forward sounding speakers which I don't mind at all. I feel like theres a band performing in front of me.
   
  Overall, very pleased with these speakers. Screw going out and socializing with my friends, tonight its just me and my speakers. 
   
  First listen: Outstanding. Couldn't have asked for more. Thanks again Dave! These rock!!


----------



## RainDelay

I read this thread with great interest as I am in the same position as the OP.  I currently have a Logitech 2.1 system and was considering the Audioengine A5s but I want a better sounding more robust system that will allow me to listen to vinyl.  I'm looking to spend about $1,000 total on speakers and an amp (preferably integrated with a phono stage).  This thread had me convinced that the Onix Ref 1 was the way to go but I see that the company is out of business now.  Given that and that fact that this thread hasn't been updated in a year I was wondering what other speaker and amp recommendations people had.
   
  I listen to lots of folk/rock/indie guitar music and about 25% hip hop so I'm looking for a system that is versatile.  Much like the OP I'm looking at bookshelf speakers that I will put on stands and could use some recommendations.  My main source right now is my MacBook Pro which feeds into a Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 DAC.


----------



## MdMa

I am in the same boat. I am looking for something better than the A5's and saw a comparison to the KRK 6's (studio monitors), but after having a discussion with a knowledge friend, he has convinced me that studio monitors will be too analytical and harsh for my liking.
   
  I am looking for a 2.0/2.1 system for music and gaming on the PC, so the speakers would not be more than 80cm (31.5") from my head.


----------



## adamlau

Ley your own ears do the deciding for you. Studio monitors are the only solution for near-field listening, IMO. Shallow excursion (relative to mid-fields/mains) and wide dispersion are hallmarks of proper near-field designs. I spent a good three months with a pair Dynaudio Focus 110 A speakers on my desk. Compared to my current ARTist 5 + ARTist Sub at roughly 2/3 the cost of the Dyns placed in the exact same location (less the sub)? No comparison in soundstage, imaging and depth. Borrowed a pair of Event Opals from a local studio. Again, no comparison as no amount of fiddling with the shelving filters could bring the Dyns in line with the expansive, enveloping sound of what a near-field could offer within the equilateral confines of a typical desktop setup. Only by moving a few steps back will your expectations of a mid-field be met.   
  Quote: 





mdma said:


> ...friend...has convinced me that studio monitors will be too analytical and harsh for my liking. I am looking for a 2.0/2.1 system for music and gaming on the PC, so the speakers would not be more than 80cm (31.5") from my head.


----------



## trog

Quote: 





raindelay said:


> I listen to lots of folk/rock/indie guitar music and about 25% hip hop so I'm looking for a system that is versatile.  Much like the OP I'm looking at bookshelf speakers that I will put on stands and could use some recommendations.  My main source right now is my MacBook Pro which feeds into a Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 DAC.


 


  Hmm rather than bookshelfs on stands why not consider floor standers? 2.0 w/o a sub this could possibly be your best bet


----------



## jjacq

Sorry for resurrecting. Is there a more up to date system than what the OP had bought? As of June 2012?


----------

