# T-AMP with sub-out?



## Capunk

Hi guys,

 I'm planning to build a small bookshelf setup, and almost purchase Trends TA-10 or Yulong T-Amp (nearly), but suddenly I discovered, there is not subwoofer output in any T-AMP. I understand bookshelf speakers should able to produce a good amount of bass, but when I came across Home Theater Speakers - Orb Audio , they offer their satellites speakers with subwoofer, so which amp is the most value as a great entry to audiophile speaker setup with subwoofer? 

 PS. I'm newbie on speaker things... does subwoofer only belong to Home Theater setup?


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## infinitesymphony

Most subwoofers have passive inputs/outputs that accept speaker cable. You could run the cable from the amp to the subwoofer, then from the subwoofer to your speakers. Otherwise, you could look for an integrated amplifier or a home theater receiver with a subwoofer preamp output.

 You might want to take a look at the specifications of Orb Audio's speakers. IMO, their speakers are no better than Bose.


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## Capunk

Ah I see, so no matter what amp I will use, it's better to connect the amp output to subwoofer then from the sub to both speakers? 

 Will T-AMP sufficient to this kind of setup? (powering the sub as well)


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## nightfire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah I see, so no matter what amp I will use, it's better to connect the amp output to subwoofer then from the sub to both speakers? 

 Will T-AMP sufficient to this kind of setup? (powering the sub as well)_

 

The amp doesn't actually power the sub. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Basically you loop the high power speaker outputs through the subwoofer, and back out to your speakers. The subwoofer sneaks a peak at the signal, but doesn't actually impose any significant load on them. This signal is sent to a separate subwoofer amp (usually integrated into the main box).

 Alternatively, if you plan on using a source with a volume control, you can just split the RCA into two sets - one for your sub, one for your t-amp. This is probably the cleanest way, if you can leave your T-Amp's volume in one position.

 *edit* by the way, I'm not sure if you can get them there, but I highly recommend Paradigm Titans (v3-v5). They're in the $150-$300 range new, and you can occasionally find them used on ebay. Truly excellent bookshelf speakers.

 *2nd edit* lol... I really have to read people's posts more carefully before responding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would tend to stay away from integrated systems, even if they do save you a bit of cash. They're almost always a compromise that will frustrate you a year or two down the road (when you'll have forgotten the $100 it saved you at the time).

 I don't have a sub, though occasionally I long for one... but with my setup, the bass is sufficient. I would start with decent bookshelf speakers, and if you feel you need more bass, buy a decent 8" powered subwoofer. The trick to subs is *placement* and proper adjustment. Ideally you want it between the two channels, aiming directly at you. Adjust it so that you can only barely hear it, set the crossover to 70-80hz for bookshelf speakers, and get used to it. Then, tweak it until you're happy.


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## spacemanspliff

Emotiva BPA-1 is a 2 channel amp with volume and a analogue line out for the sub.

 I am getting one for my existing TAD 805 and 12" sub and Ori Zhalou.


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## classicalguy

Running speaker output signals through the sub seriously damages the signal. Every sub manufacturer recommends running rca low level signals through the sub and then to the amp and speakers. The best way is for the amp to handle the routing and splitting of the signal but you need a digital preamp for that.


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## enjoiflobees

The Red Wine Audio Sig 30.2 has a volume controlled output which is perfect for a sub. It may be out of your price, but it is a great t-amp and well worth it.


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## MichaelPublic

Here's a budget guy reply if you're into T-amps
 Audiomagus has a custom speaker line level adapter specifically for T-amps to allow a line level sub output from the T-amp.
 I don't think I can link to them here but google it.
 As far as I know the T-amp has a common ground so proper grounding is important.

 disclaimer:
 I'm not affiliated with Audiomagus but have purchased items from them, ok, 1 item.


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## Capunk

Is there any guide to set up proper 2.1 Audiophile speaker setup? 
 Most subwoofer has one RCA output which similar to Coax digital cable... how to connect this to the amp?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there any guide to set up proper 2.1 Audiophile speaker setup? 
 Most subwoofer has one RCA output which similar to Coax digital cable... how to connect this to the amp?_

 

The RCA jack is an input to the subwoofer. A RCA cable is a RCA cable, regardless of how it's used (re: analog or digital audio). Connect a RCA cable from your amplifier's subwoofer preamp output to your subwoofer. If your amplifier has an internal crossover, plug into the subwoofer's crossover bypass jack and set the crossover frequency on the amp, but if not, you can plug into the crossover jack and set the crossover frequency on the sub.

 The crossover determines which frequencies will be sent to the subwoofer. If you set it too low, there will be a gap in frequency response between your subwoofer and other speakers, but too high, and there will be a bump in the bass response where both the sub and speakers are playing. Use your ears (and your speakers' specifications) to determine which setting will be best.


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## Capunk

Just in case I get something like this... 





 How can I connect my sub with this amp?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How can I connect my sub with this amp?_

 

You would have to use the subwoofer's high-level speaker inputs. Either run the speaker cables to your subwoofer, then out of your subwoofer and to your speakers, or run parallel cables from the binding posts to both the subwoofer and speakers. Not ideal, but it will work.


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## JadeEast

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You would have to use the subwoofer's high-level speaker inputs. Either run the speaker cables to your subwoofer, then out of your subwoofer and to your speakers, or run parallel cables from the binding posts to both the subwoofer and speakers. Not ideal, but it will work._

 

T Amps don't like having their outputs grounded together so depending on your sub it may or may not tie the grounds together a meter can check fairly easily if there is continuity between the grounds of the high level input. My sony sub doesn't share grounds so I run my sub with a run of cables from the t-amp and one to the monitors.

 Someone I believe mentioned that audio magus sells an adaptor that steps the high-level input down to line level,l this would probably be a safe way to intergrate the sub and t-amp.


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## Capunk

I have a question, might be stupid but take a look at this, 






 This is the back of Creative Megaworks 550 active subwoofer, and I notice there is Center/Subwoofer input, can I connect this sub to the receiver, and use it as a normal subwoofer?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is the back of Creative Megaworks 550 active subwoofer, and I notice there is Center/Subwoofer input, can I connect this sub to the receiver, and use it as a normal subwoofer?_

 

Possibly... You'll have to use the speakers' volume control to control the output volume of the subwoofer.

 Also, that jack is for both center and subwoofer, which means that it's a stereo 1/8" input. Subwoofer preamp output from a receiver is mono RCA. If you got a RCA to 1/8" adapter, it might work... Not sure if you'd need mono or stereo, since I'm not sure which channel (left or right) is for the subwoofer, but mono might work either way.

 Which receiver are you talking about? This can't be done with the Trends mentioned earlier...


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## soloz2

check this out:
New 25 watt Mini Digital Amp - A new product from our dear friend Craig Chase - AV123.com Forum

 25wpc digital amp with sub out, it should be in production in a couple months and will have an introductory price of about $100. I plan to pick one up for my office setup


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## nightfire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_check this out:
New 25 watt Mini Digital Amp - A new product from our dear friend Craig Chase - AV123.com Forum

 25wpc digital amp with sub out, it should be in production in a couple months and will have an introductory price of about $100. I plan to pick one up for my office setup_

 

Wow.. that looks quite interesting. I built a 41hz amp5 last year (TA2022 iirc) and it's incredible. Tons of headroom and power, and very good highs. It cost me about $350 when I was done casing it up. If this thing intros for $100, I'll have to grab a couple.


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## Capunk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which receiver are you talking about? This can't be done with the Trends mentioned earlier..._

 

No, I might not going to use this sub for Trends/Bookshelf setup. 
 But I want to reduce the expense, buying new stuff all the time... 
 so I wanted to hook up the subwoofer for my home theater setup, and the receiver has subwoofer out (RCA).


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_check this out:
New 25 watt Mini Digital Amp - A new product from our dear friend Craig Chase - AV123.com Forum

 25wpc digital amp with sub out, it should be in production in a couple months and will have an introductory price of about $100. I plan to pick one up for my office setup_

 

That is pretty cool. A class D/T amp with a subwoofer pre output and digital volume control. In that price range, it will be competing with the Trends TA-10, Emotiva BPA-1/Dayton APA150, and the Sonic Impact Super T-Amp. Of those amps, only the Emotiva has a subwoofer pre output, but it's passive, so the subwoofer's volume won't track with the amp's volume knob.

 Do you know if the subwoofer pre output is affected by the amp's volume? Also, the designer mentions a forced 100 Hz high-pass on the main speaker outputs. This would be very bad in the case of full-range speakers, and he doesn't seem willing to clarify if it can be disabled...


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## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is pretty cool. A class D/T amp with a subwoofer pre output and digital volume control. In that price range, it will be competing with the Trends TA-10, Emotiva BPA-1/Dayton APA150, and the Sonic Impact Super T-Amp. Of those amps, only the Emotiva has a subwoofer pre output, but it's passive, so the subwoofer's volume won't track with the amp's volume knob.

 Do you know if the subwoofer pre output is affected by the amp's volume? Also, the designer mentions a forced 100 Hz high-pass on the main speaker outputs. This would be very bad in the case of full-range speakers, and he doesn't seem willing to clarify if it can be disabled..._

 

I think it was discussed, but I can't recall how it works. I'll try to find out.


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## soundboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Every sub manufacturer recommends running rca low level signals through the sub and then to the amp and speakers._

 

REL, the British sub specialist, actually recommends connecting its subs using the speaker inputs/outputs.


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## classicalguy

Ok. Everyone except REL  Seriously, a high-end sub company like REL using top-end parts may be great for high-end, but an inexpensive sub is going to lose quality going through the high-end connections.

 It would be nice to get a list of reasonably priced subs that will accept t-amp high-level inputs with common ground.


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## tstarn06

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soloz2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_check this out:
New 25 watt Mini Digital Amp - A new product from our dear friend Craig Chase - AV123.com Forum

 25wpc digital amp with sub out, it should be in production in a couple months and will have an introductory price of about $100. I plan to pick one up for my office setup_

 

Just ordered one of these new amps for my office (well, I signed up, not officially taking orders yet). They are $89 plus S&H for the first 100 people to join the Tweak City Audio forum. After I signed up, there are five slots left. I think they are going to sell for either $99 or $129, can't tell.

 Edit: They just announced the $89 price is extended through 3/31, and they are going to give away a certain number of the X-19 amps as well (the working name). Oh, I am not affiliated with Tweak City Audio, just passing along the information.

Special pricing for the first 100 members !! - Page 13 - Tweak City Audio


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## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tstarn06* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just ordered one of these new amps for my office (well, I signed up, not officially taking orders yet). They are $89 plus S&H for the first 100 people to join the Tweak City Audio forum. After I signed up, there are five slots left. I think they are going to sell for either $99 or $129, can't tell.

 Edit: They just announced the $89 price is extended through 3/31, and they are going to give away a certain number of the X-19 amps as well (the working name). Oh, I am not affiliated with Tweak City Audio, just passing along the information.

Special pricing for the first 100 members !! - Page 13 - Tweak City Audio_

 

Yeah, I'm in for the $89 price too.


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## classicalguy

Well, I hope the new AV123 amp comes through and turns out great. But this amp was promoted heavily in the discussion forums about 2 years ago, and has been promised as "coming soon" every few months. AV123 has a huge fan club, but they have had real problems getting product out and keeping stock. I heard the original X-LS speakers, and they were very nice looking, but they didn't sound as great as the hype, imo. Now they are selling updated tweeters and a revised design. I'm sure the AV123 fans will slam me for saying this, but I hope the company's products match the hype at some point. They have been great about making people feel that they are part of a club. I have not heard the new X-LS, which is quite a bit more expensive, plus expensive shipping. It would be great to have a $100 digital integrated amp with sub out that sounded really good and had nice connectors and parts, but given this track record I'm not going to jump on the bandwagen until the product is out and reviewed.


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## soloz2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *classicalguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I hope the new AV123 amp comes through and turns out great. But this amp was promoted heavily in the discussion forums about 2 years ago, and has been promised as "coming soon" every few months. AV123 has a huge fan club, but they have had real problems getting product out and keeping stock. I heard the original X-LS speakers, and they were very nice looking, but they didn't sound as great as the hype, imo. Now they are selling updated tweeters and a revised design. I'm sure the AV123 fans will slam me for saying this, but I hope the company's products match the hype at some point. They have been great about making people feel that they are part of a club. I have not heard the new X-LS, which is quite a bit more expensive, plus expensive shipping. It would be great to have a $100 digital integrated amp with sub out that sounded really good and had nice connectors and parts, but given this track record I'm not going to jump on the bandwagen until the product is out and reviewed._

 

I'll agree that av123 tends to promise products too early and leave some people disappointed I have been very impressed with the products I have heard from them. The x-ls are very good for the money. They could easily compete with other speakers in the sub $500 range. Would they beat them all.. no, but for the money they are a relative bargain. Yes, they are a little warm and not voiced to be ultra revealing or detailed, but for the average music lover, or beginning audiophile I think they are some of the best speakers for the money.

 I haven't heard the new x-ls encores, but the ninja modded version won the stereo mojo shootout which I think says something.


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## tstarn06

For $89, I just thought it sounded like a nice replacement for my Sonic Impact T-Amp. If it were $300-$400, I might hesitate. But since I already have the T-Amp, I am no hurry. Plus, they won't charge until I technically order, so why not give it a shot?

 I'd just like to add a little bass to my office system, and this seemed like the ticket. I am thrilled with the T-Amp, but if the X-19 adds some respectable bass, it's worth $89 to me.

 If this comes out and meets expectations, I'll give my daughter the T-amp for her dorm, with a couple of small, efficient speakers and her ipod.


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## infinitesymphony

Was there ever an answer to the question about whether or not the main speaker outputs of the X-19 have a permanent high-pass filter at 100 Hz?

 Edit: I read through the official threads again and saw that all of the people who asked that question never received an answer. It's pretty clear that the 100 Hz crossover point is fixed, which means that many people will be significantly lacking bass without a subwoofer. Seems like an oversight to me...


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## nghiasays

I second not going for the small satellites and subwoofer unless this is due to WAF. Orb's satellite "optimal" range is 120Hz - 18KHz which means you're going to have the sub do more work than it sould. I also don't understand how the subwoofer adjustable crossover is 40-160Hz yet the freq. response goes to 180Hz. For the price of the 2.1 orbs you can do better with another internet direct company like av123, aperion, ascend acoustics. But their offerings wouldn't sing with a T-amp or at least the 15watt ones that came up when I googled T-amp. How much are you looking to spend and how big is your listening area?


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## classicalguy

"But their offerings wouldn't sing with a T-amp or at least the 15watt ones that came up when I googled T-amp. How much are you looking to spend and how big is your listening area?"

 You're just wrong about this. I use the t-amp with bookshelf speakers every day, and even a pair of floor standers, and it has plenty of power. People have been using tube amps with bookshelves for years. 15 watts is plenty to make most bookshelves sing. Also, the quality of sound from the t-amp is revolutionary when compared to mid-fi receivers.


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## tstarn06

x2 on that. I am listening to my cheap T-Amp right now, with a pair of KLH vintage speakers (bargain system of the century. $47 inclusive, since someone gave me the speakers and I did spring for $20 for an ac adapter for the T-Amp) and my Zune80 plugged in. Sound quality is excellent, and plenty of volume. I also use a Sony DVD/CD player as a source (to play CDs), and that sounds even better. And I believe that while the T-Amp is rated at 15 watts, it only really hits 6-8 max. As long as the speakers are 90db or higher, it's not a problem at all.

 Have you ever seen the photos on 6Moons audio of the tiny T-Amp hooked up to those massive Klipsch floor-standing speakers (they are the size of a Volkswagon? It's hilarious, but it worked very well, according to the reviewer, because the Klipsch's are very efficient.


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## nghiasays

My claim was with the recommended power from the manufacture but after looking up the reviews on the T-Amp, I can see why they're liked.


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