# Loxjie P20 Discussion- Starved for information on this thing!



## GravityEyelids (Apr 2, 2019)

Okay so there is really not much out there on the Loxjie P20. There's a few out there that have given really high regards to this thing, and i feel like it deserves a good discussion. (TL;DR: just read the bold stuff)

The main thing i want to know is regarding the balanced in/out. I DON'T want this to descend into a balanced argument thing. The point is that nearly every reviewer has mentioned how the balanced is noticeably better on this thing. I personally don't care about balanced - it's not something i need or care about. HOWEVER. It seems like the circuitry/electronics/whatever in this specific amp is somehow better than the unbalanced.

What i want to know is this - *can i still take advantage of this "better" balanced sound by simply using something like RCA --> XLR adapters and running them into the Loxjie P20 inputs*? The balanced output thing is relatively cheap/easy, but i'm definitely not spending balanced DAC money anytime soon. Is it just the balanced OUTPUT that gives this benefit? Do i need to even run balanced into it to benefit?

Question 2: [Loxjie P20 owners ONLY] - *does this make a good first real amp for the HD6xx*? I know that a JDS Atom is a "safer" choice, but i kind of want something interesting and different, which leads me to...
*
Will this still give me SOME amount of the benefit of tube despite being hybrid?* The warmness, light distortion, and soundstage/reverb type of effect that people talk about? Reviewers seem to think that it.

It would also give me an upgrade path if i DID want to eventually buy a balanced DAC.


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## rrg123 (Apr 5, 2019)

Just got the P20.

PC spotify (USB) > Khadas tone board (non-balanced)> Loxjie P20 amp > Shure 1540

Non-balanced for now until I make new cables for the headphones.

I want to use the single ended for a while and determine what the balanced adds.
I like that I can experiment with so many options like, cables, tubes, balanced dacs (future) etc all on one $99 device.

I wanted more warm, tube sound but not the physical size of the Darkvoice that my son has because I work at the kitchen table with closed headphones all the time. So a small stack with short RCAs works for me.

Sound is more warm than the Spark Amp I just put away in the closet. This sound is so smooth to my ears. Anita Baker  "Caught up in the Rapture" never sounded this good.


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## GravityEyelids

I pulled the trigger and this should be delivered tomorrow. I'm excited. Going to DIY a balanced cable, and maybe get some RCA to XLR adapters. And use my Fiio e18 as a DAC. 

might swap the tube with I think it's called GE 5670?


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## rrg123 (Apr 5, 2019)

"might swap the tube with I think it's called GE 5670?

I did take a chance on cheap ebay Jan 5670W General Electric co. tubes. Be aware they are tiny and sit real low in the amp compared to the orginals.
I'll take pic later, still enjoying it so much that I don't feel like shutting down.


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## turbomustang84

rrg123 said:


> "might swap the tube with I think it's called GE 5670?
> 
> I did take a chance on cheap ebay Jan 5670W General Electric co. tubes. Be aware they are tiny and sit real low in the amp compared to the orginals.
> I'll take pic later, still enjoying it so much that I don't feel like shutting down.


Socket savers lift them up


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## GravityEyelids (Apr 5, 2019)

turbomustang84 said:


> Socket savers lift them up



People have said that there is almost no room around them and that socket savers could potentially get trapped in there and if they break, you're SOL. But i mean this is a pretty budget amp so that's not a HUGE deal.


rrg123, did you notice much of an improvement over the originals? The JAN GE ones are the ones i was going to get. Don't really have money to buy like $60 tubes right now. Ha some prick on another forum was absolutely appalled that someone put like nice $100+ tubes into a budget tube amp enough though he had never even seen or heard the amp. Just on principal.


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## rrg123 (Apr 6, 2019)

They are an improvement but I can not say how much since I just got the amp.
I got my tubes for $19.58 for two - $9.95 each. I have read over and over that the Russian tubes sound really good but I don't want to spend that much. I also knew I didn't want to keep the ones that come with it.
Do a search on cheap bay if you are interested in theses little guys over the stock bigger ones.
5670 GE NOS NIB JAN 5670W Tube 2C51 date code B 11/85 comes in original box.



5670 GE NOS NIB JAN 5670W Tube 2C51

PS:To the OP question - One NOTE: I just pulled out my Massdrop Sen HD6XX.
Compared to the Shure 1540, the HD6xx do require more power but no problem and plenty of room to spare on the decibel logarithmic scale represented by the volume knob, low to high -60 to -00. I have it at -28.


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## GravityEyelids

That's super helpful. Thanks. I'll be getting them tonight so I'll let you know by impressions


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## arielext

I had to wiggle quite a while before I got the 5670's out of the P20.
Swapping between JAN Sylvana 5670's and 6N3P (both found for ~ €15 a pair on ebay).
This amp is really really nice btw!


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## rrg123 (Apr 6, 2019)

so are you saying the new 6N3P $15 a pair are better, in your opinion over the slyvania
5670s??

FYI -
volume on the Shure 1540 at -33 (lower power) very smooth sound - remember -60 is off
volume on the DT1770 at       -30 (more clinical precise sound, more tight thump)
volume on the HD 6xx at        -28 (more power needed) of course very open airy, less bass than above closed back

my2cents


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## GravityEyelids

Just recieved my Loxjie (they sent black instead of red and im pissed because im not going to feel like sending it back), and actually...i'm not super impressed. Not sure what it is, but it just sounds muddy and not detailed at all. Do these things need to burn in or something? Or are the stock tubes and Single Ended outputs really that bad? Nonetheless, i'm going to give it a fair shot, as it's my first dedicated desktop amp, and i will be trying balanced as well as different tubes.


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## arielext

rrg123 said:


> so are you saying the new 6N3P $15 a pair are better, in your opinion over the slyvania
> 5670s??
> 
> FYI -
> ...



For my ears both the 5670 and 6n3p sound very good. Detailed and wide. Most listening is done balanced in and balanced out to either fostex th900 or focal Stellia.

I'll stick to the 6n3p for a while cause they are easier to handle in this amp.


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## GravityEyelids

arielext said:


> For my ears both the 5670 and 6n3p sound very good. Detailed and wide. Most listening is done balanced in and balanced out to either fostex th900 or focal Stellia.
> 
> I'll stick to the 6n3p for a while cause they are easier to handle in this amp.



So it looks like I have the chance to pick up a pair of Western Electric 396a for like $50. This seems like a great price for great tubes from what I can tell, so thinking maybe I should jump on them?


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## arielext

GravityEyelids said:


> So it looks like I have the chance to pick up a pair of Western Electric 396a for like $50. This seems like a great price for great tubes from what I can tell, so thinking maybe I should jump on them?


Well if you still have doubts about this $99 amp, is this really the time to invest $50 for tubes? What I have read (and experienced) is that the amp is meant to be used fully balanced and is less performant single ended.


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## GravityEyelids

arielext said:


> Well if you still have doubts about this $99 amp, is this really the time to invest $50 for tubes? What I have read (and experienced) is that the amp is meant to be used fully balanced and is less performant single ended.



I'm going to be running it balanced once I get my cable materials in


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## arielext

Then if you could wait, try it balanced first with the stock tubes. If that offer for the tubes is not going to last: buy them


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## bilboda

Those tubes may be overkill for the amp but that's a nice price. Purists may weep at their use as they can do so much more in certain hi-end amps.
Google this amp. You will find a ton of info and some eye opening measurements.


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## CADCAM

Just got this in a few days ago and I'm impressed even with the stock tubes. I tried my DT990's and didn't feel it. Tried my Superlux's and it sounded much better, listening to the DT880 now and it's really very good. I'm running it straight from my Oppo. Clean sounding...initial impressions are very good even using RCA's.


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## GravityEyelids (Apr 10, 2019)

UPDATE - Things havent been sounding right and after swapping components around for hours, i have narrowed down that actually the 1/4" adapter that came with the 6XX has been faulty, along with the other 1/4" i have, which only let though one channel (what are the damn chances of that??? ).

I fixed the issue and now this amp and setup sounds incredible to me. Wow. I don't ever remember having a setup that sounds so pleasing and presents my favorite music the way I've always thought that it "should"  sound. It just sounds effortless. I don't know how else to describe it. I should note that I've previously really only owned portable cans and never really owned a decently high end over ear that benefits from amping.


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## rrg123

GravityEyelids, great job on clearing up your issues.

Good to learn that I am not the only one who really enjoys the amp.
Per your idea and what you mentioned in the original post. I ordered the xlr to RCA 1ft cable that will attach to my DAC.
It's on a slow boat from over seas so no time soon but I am looking to see what happens with that.

For now happy getting more time with the current unbalanced setup. 
I'm just enjoying the slow ride to better audio.


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## CADCAM

Anyone else thinking about getting the SMSL SU-8 balanced DAC off Massdrop to try with this??
It's 200 bucks right now with free shipping...


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## bgtip

GravityEyelids said:


> Okay so there is really not much out there on the Loxjie P20. There's a few out there that have given really high regards to this thing, and i feel like it deserves a good discussion. (TL;DR: just read the bold stuff)
> 
> The main thing i want to know is regarding the balanced in/out. I DON'T want this to descend into a balanced argument thing. The point is that nearly every reviewer has mentioned how the balanced is noticeably better on this thing. I personally don't care about balanced - it's not something i need or care about. HOWEVER. It seems like the circuitry/electronics/whatever in this specific amp is somehow better than the unbalanced.
> 
> ...




On your questions:
1. Yes, I run 3.5mm to XLR cable from FiiO K3 to the balanced input of P20.
2. It made huge difference with my HD 660S. The sound stage went from -.- to --.--
3. No, it doesn't sound tubey. I used Russian tubes 6Н3П-ЕВ military, and one similar pair. I liked the original Chinese tubes also. All of them sound different in regard to imaging and detail resolve. None of them sonded warmer or reverberating. My Little Bear P2 sounds tubey, with all those characteristics present, P20 doesn't.


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## GravityEyelids

rrg123 said:


> GravityEyelids, great job on clearing up your issues.
> 
> Good to learn that I am not the only one who really enjoys the amp.
> Per your idea and what you mentioned in the original post. I ordered the xlr to RCA 1ft cable that will attach to my DAC.
> ...



I've got a 3.5mm to XLR breakout cable coming tomorrow so I'll let you know. From what I've heard the balanced outputs may make a bigger difference but once I build an XLR cable for the 6XX I'll be running full "balanced" (kind of fake balance in) and can just sit back and enjoy - not that I'm not heavily enjoying them already.


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## turbomustang84

I have not bought the P20 yet I got the Geshelli Enog2 Balanced Dac and am awaiting my XLR cables then illI order the P20.
Until my P20 gets here I've got a Geshelli Archel Pro amplifier and connected via XLR to 3.5mm cable LOL .

By the way if you need some good cables 


Those are 7" RCAs and I ordered the XLRs 1ft like these 


 

I am actually very pleased with the quality from ghentaudio
http://www.ghentaudio.com/part/a01.html


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## Shane D

I got P20 today. Really surprised that they ship with the tubes in.
Should one tube be higher than the other? Facing the front, the tube on the right is higher????

Any input?

Shane D


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## Shane D

One more pic...




Shane D


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## GravityEyelids

My tubes look just like that. They have pretty large pins i think so it won't really matter if they're leaning a little.


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## Shane D

GravityEyelids said:


> My tubes look just like that. They have pretty large pins i think so it won't really matter if they're leaning a little.



How about the lighting? Looks very dim... 
Shane D


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## CADCAM

Mine were a little loose and leaning, I just re-seated them and they look fine now.


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## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> Mine were a little loose and leaning, I just re-seated them and they look fine now.



I pressed all the way in and one is still higher. However the coating on the higher one comes down to meet the other one. Also, the inner layer is even with the platform on both.

Just tried it out. Not much power at all. Can't make a snap judgement. Will give it a lot more time tomorrow.

Shane D


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## arielext

I thought it was a bit scary that the tubed come pre-installed, but it works  mine were socketed correctly but u ended up changing the tubes. One of the 1st I tried got a bended pin from me pressing it down to hard. Make sure the pins are straight before pressing down!


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## CADCAM

I'm presently using my DT880 600 Ohm and sitting at -30 on the volume, it seems to have enough power for me running straight out of the Oppo with RCA's.


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## Shane D

Using my amp this morning with my T5p.2's. 
I am using a cheap splitter out of my DAP to some old RCA's to the back of my Loxjie. Out front I am using a balanced XLR cable to my headphones. Balanced input cable is literally on the slow boat from Hong Kong.

Volume is set at -25 with very efficient 32 Ohm headphones.

Not quite as clear as my Burson amp, but bassier. I don't think I can really form any opinions until I have a fully balanced path. It does sound good to me though. Hopefully it will be a nice companion to the Burson.

It does get very warm. I thought the tubes would light up a lot more.

Man, those tubes are in tight! I am afraid to damage them in removal. I might use a small piece of rubber to get a better grip and then hopefully I won't have to grip as hard.

Shane D


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## arielext

I'm at -50 *(fully balanced) for Fostex TH900sb and Focal Stellia and -45 for the amiron home. My amp does not get hot at all, only the tubes are hot but the amp itself says hand-warm.


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## rrg123

Shane D said:


> Man, those tubes are in tight! I am afraid to damage them in removal. I might use a small piece of rubber to get a better grip and then hopefully I won't have to grip as hard.
> 
> Shane D



To remove the tubes, grab each one with index and thumb fingers with two hands. Rock them back and forth ever so slightly while pulling up.
Don't pull straight up. It's more of a wiggle movement while pulling up.
my2cents


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## Shane D (Apr 17, 2019)

arielext said:


> I'm at -50 *(fully balanced) for Fostex TH900sb and Focal Stellia and -45 for the amiron home. My amp does not get hot at all, only the tubes are hot but the amp itself says hand-warm.



Wow on your volumes. I do not listen loud and my T5p.2's are super easy to drive. I am finding myself at about -20, depending on the music. But I am only half balanced.

My top plate gets warm and the tubes get hot, but I can still hold on to them with my fingers, so it's not "burn me" hot.
Much warmer than my Burson Fun. But not nearly as hot as some tube amps that you read about that will actually burn you. Maybe because it's a hybrid.

Shane D


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## Shane D

rrg123 said:


> To remove the tubes, grab each one with index and thumb fingers with two hands. Rock them back and forth ever so slightly while pulling up.
> Don't pull straight up. It's more of a wiggle movement while pulling up.
> my2cents



I will try that when the new tubes come in. That will be a while. They are on the same schedule as the cable from Hong Kong.

P20 and headphone cable ordered on Friday and received on Monday.

Cable ordered on Friday due "sometime" in May (from Hong Kong). 

Tubes ordered on Saturday due "sometime" in May (from Ukraine).

Shane D


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## GravityEyelids

Shane D said:


> Wow on your volumes. I do not listen loud and my T5p.2's are super easy to drive. I am finding myself at about -20, depending on the music. But I am only half balanced.
> 
> My top plate gets warm and the tubes get hot, but I can still hold on to them with my fingers, so it's not "burn me" hot.
> Much warmer than my Burson Fun. But not nearly as hot as some tube amps that you read about that will actually burn you. Maybe because it's a hybrid.
> ...



Yeah mine is nearly maxed out. When getting ready for bed, i might have it at -15-20, but for normal, daytime listening when i want it loud, it's not super uncommon to be a 0 or like -5-10. 

How do you like the Meze 99? I'm thinking about picking some up for hip hop and metal to compliment my 6XX. The used price on the Neo is pretty insane - it looks like you can pick up a pair for $150 if you're patient.


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## Shane D

GravityEyelids said:


> Yeah mine is nearly maxed out. When getting ready for bed, i might have it at -15-20, but for normal, daytime listening when i want it loud, it's not super uncommon to be a 0 or like -5-10.
> 
> How do you like the Meze 99? I'm thinking about picking some up for hip hop and metal to compliment my 6XX. The used price on the Neo is pretty insane - it looks like you can pick up a pair for $150 if you're patient.



I love my 99 Classic's. They really don't need any amplification. They sound great out of my LG V30.

How about the Neo through MassDrop? $200.00 on there, brand new.

Shane D


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## arielext

rrg123 said:


> so are you saying the new 6N3P $15 a pair are better, in your opinion over the slyvania
> 5670s??
> 
> FYI -
> ...


Switched to the JAN sylvana's again and I think they have a slightly more controlled bass than the 6Н3П-ЕВ. The 6Н3П-ЕВ have more bass quantity though.
Mids and highs are quite similair, would say the 5670's have slight less spark, they sound a bit darker.

the stellia's are neutral and the p20 gives me the extra bass I like. Using the P20 with my TH900s is overdoing the bass. I prefer the TH900 with NFB-1amp over p20 any second of the day.


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## arielext

The amp is hotter with the 5670 compared to the 6Н3П-ЕВ


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## yangian

How about P20 compared with Bravo Ocean for Senn. 6 series? Thanks


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## arielext

... and back to the 6Н3П-ЕВ. They sound the most musical of all in the end.
Still amazed by how good the synergy is between this amp and the focals. If anyone is doubting: in case of brighter headphones and the ability to go full balanced: try this amp!


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## CADCAM

I've been running this little unit straight from my Oppo, no external DAC and have consistently been impressed with the sound. All my listening of late has been with my DT880 600ohm. 
A matched pair of Russian 6N3P-E 6Н3П-Е tubes came in today that I ordered off ebay for 15 bucks and amazingly it sounds even better to my ears. A little more delicate in the details and a bit cleaner in the high end. I have two other hp systems with dedicated external DAC's and amps but find myself listening to this setup lately. So an old Oppo player spinning discs to a 100 dollar Chinese hybrid amp is making my Beyers sound exceptional IMHO.
Can't wait to hear this with a balanced DAC\Headphones later on if I go that route but right now I'm impressed! Bass is present, not overbearing at all but not lacking either. Mids seem natural as guitar and vocals are reproduced without any obvious flaws. Highs are controlled and I usually EQ the DT880's a bit but they are relaxed and not sharp on the material I've been listening to this far. Listening to some Strunz & Farah Primal Magic and all is well, not the best I've ever heard but certainly not the worst!


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## Shane D

I am still going off my stock tubes, which must be well broken in by now.

I am going directly from Sony ZX-300 via headphone out (3.5mm to dual RCA) and balanced out to my Beyers T5p.2's.

I find the amp very thick and bassy compared to my Burson Fun-Classic. I didn't care for it at first. Now I am getting more used to it and actually enjoy it with material that can be considered a little shrill or piercing. In my case that would be Florence and the Machine, Miles Davis, Freddie Hubbard, Kamasi Washington, etc.

The Loxjie really smoothes all of them out. However, I know it's not accurate. 

I have been using it daily for almost two weeks and think it sounds good now.

Yesterday I received a DB meter and I wanted to test it out. I then tried my Burson out and it was like "Man, that sounds great!"

I am still awaiting my balanced source cable and my Russian tubes. I will dedicate May to exploring every variable with this set up.

Not sure how often I would prefer thick and bassy to clean and clear. I need to wait until all the goodies are in to decide.

Shane D


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## arielext

It's true these bring a thick sound to the stage. For my purpose and set-up I like them.
Loxjie P20 -> Focal Stellia = bliss
Audio-GD NFB1-amp -< Focal Stellia = to clinical for my taste

on the other hand the already thick Fostex TH900 don't need the extra oomph.


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## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> I've been running this little unit straight from my Oppo, no external DAC and have consistently been impressed with the sound. All my listening of late has been with my DT880 600ohm.
> A matched pair of Russian 6N3P-E 6Н3П-Е tubes came in today that I ordered off ebay for 15 bucks and amazingly it sounds even better to my ears. A little more delicate in the details and a bit cleaner in the high end. I have two other hp systems with dedicated external DAC's and amps but find myself listening to this setup lately. So an old Oppo player spinning discs to a 100 dollar Chinese hybrid amp is making my Beyers sound exceptional IMHO.
> Can't wait to hear this with a balanced DAC\Headphones later on if I go that route but right now I'm impressed! Bass is present, not overbearing at all but not lacking either. Mids seem natural as guitar and vocals are reproduced without any obvious flaws. Highs are controlled and I usually EQ the DT880's a bit but they are relaxed and not sharp on the material I've been listening to this far. Listening to some Strunz & Farah Primal Magic and all is well, not the best I've ever heard but certainly not the worst!



Are you running fully balanced in from your player? I am surprised that you can drive a 600 Ohm headphone. I am around -20 with my 32 Ohm phones and I even have to go up to -15 with older music. With some newer music I do have to go as low as -25. I am curious if this might change when I get my balanced source cable and am running fully balanced.

Shane D


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## arielext

Which reminds me: what DAC are we using to feed these?
I'm using a R1 dac from audio-gd, balanced.


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## arielext

Shane D said:


> Are you running fully balanced in from your player? I am surprised that you can drive a 600 Ohm headphone. I am around -20 with my 32 Ohm phones and I even have to go up to -15 with older music. With some newer music I do have to go as low as -25. I am curious if this might change when I get my balanced source cable and am running fully balanced.
> 
> Shane D


I cannot listen to these > -40 what is your input voltage? I guess the audio-gd R1 has more voltage to whatever you are using to feed these.


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## Shane D

arielext said:


> It's true these bring a thick sound to the stage. For my purpose and set-up I like them.
> Loxjie P20 -> Focal Stellia = bliss
> Audio-GD NFB1-amp -< Focal Stellia = to clinical for my taste
> 
> on the other hand the already thick Fostex TH900 don't need the extra oomph.



How would you describe the Stellia sound? I am thinking my Grado's would likely sound very good out of the Loxjie.

Shane D


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## Shane D

arielext said:


> I cannot listen to these > -40 what is your input voltage? I guess the audio-gd R1 has more voltage to whatever you are using to feed these.



I am just going DAP to amp via headphone out. No exterior DAC.

Shane D


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## CADCAM (Apr 27, 2019)

Yikes! That's an expensive Walkman.
Mine never ever sounded thick and bassy, do you have any other options to run a signal to it? Do you happen to have a EQ setting enabled? I know it highly unlikely but just trying to figure out why it would sound so thick and mine does not...
I enjoyed the stock tubes but the Russian replacements are superior IMO. The stock tubes were not bassy at all.

Just threw on some Bella Fleck and the Flecktones which I know has some serious bass thanks to Victor Wooten and no thick wooly bass here, clean tight low end with good control. I actually could go for a smidgen more low end.
Maybe your player is just naturally bassy?

BTW the Oppo doesn't have a balanced out so I'm just running out of my RCA's, my volume is at -30 and that's a pretty comfortable volume for me. My Beyers are the older grey Premiums with the 600 ohm stamped on the end connector.


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## arielext

Shane D said:


> How would you describe the Stellia sound? I am thinking my Grado's would likely sound very good out of the Loxjie.
> 
> Shane D


The focal stellia's are special, not only in looks. They are neutral and closed with an open feeling. The first closed backs I ever owned which have the air of an open back.


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## arielext

Shane D said:


> I am just going DAP to amp via headphone out. No exterior DAC.
> 
> Shane D


That must be it then. I've tried it the amp once at -30 and that almost blew my headphones.


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## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> Yikes! That's an expensive Walkman.
> Mine never ever sounded thick and bassy, do you have any other options to run a signal to it? Do you happen to have a EQ setting enabled? I know it highly unlikely but just trying to figure out why it would sound so thick and mine does not...
> I enjoyed the stock tubes but the Russian replacements are superior IMO. The stock tubes were not bassy at all.
> 
> ...



Well, for their higher end models, it is the "cheapie" one.

Now that you mention it, my DAP does have some extra bass added 

as I feel that my Beyer's and my Grado's need a bit more bass. I will turn it down next time.

I am looking at an OTG cable for my DAP and a DAC to feed both amps.

Shane D


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## Shane D

arielext said:


> The focal stellia's are special, not only in looks. They are neutral and closed with an open feeling. The first closed backs I ever owned which have the air of an open back.



For that price they should be amazing. I have to save up for a few months just to buy the Elex's. 
And I do want to get them.

Shane D


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## turbomustang84

I still have not got the P20 yet I was waiting to get XLR cables to connect it to my Geshelli Enog2 .
And it took almost a month but the cables arrived yesterday and I'm always blown away with Ghentaudio 's quality


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## Shane D

turbomustang84 said:


> I still have not got the P20 yet I was waiting to get XLR cables to connect it to my Geshelli Enog2 .
> And it took almost a month but the cables arrived yesterday and I'm always blown away with Ghentaudio 's quality



Those cable connectors look huge. They look like my four pin headphone connector. Look great though.

Shane D


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## turbomustang84

Shane D said:


> Those cable connectors look huge. They look like my four pin headphone connector. Look great though.
> 
> Shane D


I had a hard time finding short cables but these are custom made to your specs so I had them made to 12"


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## Shane D

turbomustang84 said:


> I had a hard time finding short cables but these are custom made to your specs so I had them made to 12"



I am sure they are very nice. I have just been looking at 3 pin male to female cables on Amazon and they seem much thinner at the connector. 
I really don't need them until I actually buy a DAC, but it appears that I am not happy unless I am researching.


Shane D


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## turbomustang84

Shane D said:


> I am sure they are very nice. I have just been looking at 3 pin male to female cables on Amazon and they seem much thinner at the connector.
> I really don't need them until I actually buy a DAC, but it appears that I am not happy unless I am researching.
> 
> 
> Shane D


The Geshelli Enog2 has surpassed my expectations by a huge amount but it does not support USB which is not an issue for me .


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## robo24

I'm very happy with the P20. Already had a first Gen Woo Wa7 but was curious about going balanced and for 99 bucks figured why not? Have both it and the WA7 connected to a SMSL-SU-8, which makes it very easy to test since it can send audio to both amps at the same time. I got the WA7 used for $400 more than the P20, but to my ears the difference isn't huge. Then again I'm not the most sophisticated listener in terms of detecting and describing subtle differences. For the price I think it's amazing!


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## Shane D (Apr 29, 2019)

turbomustang84 said:


> The Geshelli Enog2 has surpassed my expectations by a huge amount but it does not support USB which is not an issue for me .



I looked hard at that and was even in touch with the lady from there. No USB makes it unusable for me. But I might get one down the road for my computer. I have to keep the volume Really low in the computer to get any volume range with my Vanatoo's. I like the Geshelli product, the price and the staff.

Shane D


----------



## Shane D

robo24 said:


> I'm very happy with the P20. Already had a first Gen Woo Wa7 but was curious about going balanced and for 99 bucks figured why not? Have both it and the WA7 connected to a SMSL-SU-8, which makes it very easy to test since it can send audio to both amps at the same time. I got the WA7 used for $400 more than the P20, but to my ears the difference isn't huge. Then again I'm not the most sophisticated listener in terms of detecting and describing subtle differences. For the price I think it's amazing!



Can you describe the differences that you hear between them? I always heard the Woo was a very big deal.

Shane D


----------



## robo24 (Apr 28, 2019)

First off, I don't have stock tubes in either. I have the Electroharmonix in the WA7 and Riverstone Audio, 6N3P-E in the P20. Perhaps the WA7 seem a bit more lush and voluptuous, but being alone at the moment, can't do a blinded A/B test and probably have a bias towards wanting the WA7 to sound better (given the price and it being my first OH WOW amp experience). Using 24/96 music and HD820 phones I'm hard pressed to be able to say much. With the Elex maybe a slight nod to the P20 on some songs, but prefer the Wa7 on others. The P20 possibly sounds a little more harsh, but I wouldn't describe it as being harsh and on most songs I don't really notice a difference. With the HE-4XX I find I don't really care for either. Also, the Hugo 2 has been getting almost all my listening time, and it's kind of made clear my other amps aren't in the same league.


----------



## Shane D

robo24 said:


> First off, I don't have stock tubes in either. I have the Electroharmonix in the WA7 and Riverstone Audio, 6N3P-E in the P20. Perhaps the WA7 seem a bit more lush and voluptuous, but being alone at the moment, can't do a blinded A/B test and probably have a bias towards wanting the WA7 to sound better (given the price and it being my first OH WOW amp experience). Using 24/96 music and HD820 phones I'm hard pressed to be able to say much. With the Elex maybe a slight nod to the P20 on some songs, but prefer the Wa7 on others. The P20 possibly sounds a little more harsh, but I wouldn't describe it as being harsh and on most songs I don't really notice a difference. With the HE-4XX I find I don't really care for either. Also, the Hugo 2 has been getting almost all my listening time, and it's kind of made clear my other amps aren't in the same league.



Wow, you really have some gear!

The HE4XX's aren't doing a thing for me.

Shane D


----------



## Gyroscopics

I've had the Loxjie P20 for a month now.   My favorite headphones to use with the P20 are HD6XX and Focal Elex.  I use a pair of vintage NOS Russian 6N3P-E on the P20.  So far so good.


----------



## CADCAM

Just tried my K612's with the Loxjie and it sounds very good, these hp's are a bit tough to drive and my volume is at -32 so no issue with the P20 driving them. Bass is nice setting a solid foundation for the music and highs are relatively clean and clear, the mids are ever so slightly forward but the disc Jim Matheos~Away With Words can be a bit forward so I'm not blaming the P20 entirely. Overall I really like it and again am second guessing getting rid of the AKG's...


----------



## tuby sound

*CADCAM* 
How do you like the Little Dot VS P20? 

Thank you 
Kelvin


----------



## CADCAM

Let me do a little comparison tonight and get back to you.


----------



## Shane D

Finally got my balanced cable from Hong Kong today. Next hour is checking it out.


----------



## Shane D

First note: balanced out on my DAP is the same volume as SE out. That's kind of weird. 
DAP to headphone, the difference is quite noticeable.

Must be different with amps.

Shane D


----------



## rrg123 (May 1, 2019)

Shane D,
Would you be so kind as to draw out the connections in that cable, if you are able?

Buzz them out with a continuity ohm meter so we can learn how they wired the connectors, 3.5mm jack 4 pole to XLR balanced.

I have seen the wiring diagrams on-line in two different ways.
Thank you in advance.


----------



## Shane D

rrg123 said:


> Shane D,
> Would you be so kind as to draw out the connections in that cable, if you are able?
> 
> Buzz them out with a continuity ohm meter so we can learn how they wired the connectors, 3.5mm jack 4 pole to XLR balanced.
> ...



I have no idea how to do that. Would you run each XLR pin with a ring or the section between the rings on the 4.4mm connector?

Shane D


----------



## Shane D (May 1, 2019)

rrg123 said:


> Shane D,
> Would you be so kind as to draw out the connections in that cable, if you are able?
> 
> Buzz them out with a continuity ohm meter so we can learn how they wired the connectors, 3.5mm jack 4 pole to XLR balanced.
> ...



You got me curious so, here we go. 4.4mm to dual 3pin XLR cable. Here are the pics of what I was measuring:
 

Matching the 3 pin XLR plug, the pin on the far right is the positive one, the bottom/middle one is the negative and left is the ground.
Of course with the 4.4mm plug you are looking at (from the tip in), L+, L-, R+, R- and ground.

Is this what you were looking for?

Shane D


----------



## Shane D

A note from my balanced experiment. Using my new cable directly from DAP to amp, there is a hum. It is not noticeable during playback. Max the volume and it's very loud. If I move the DAP around it can range from loud to almost silent. It is definitely the cable.

Balanced in to SE in was not the huge upgrade that I was hoping for. Combine that with the hum and it makes you say hhhmmmm...

At this point I will just file it under nothing ventured, nothing gained. Lots more listening to do.

Shane D


----------



## rrg123 (May 1, 2019)

Shane D said:


> You got me curious so, here we go. 4.4mm to dual 3pin XLR cable. Here are the pics of what I was measuring:
> 
> 
> Matching the 3 pin XLR plug, the pin on the far right is the positive one, the bottom/middle one is the negative and left is the ground.
> ...


Yes, you got it.

I'm also looking at the different cable combinations.
My DAC is non-balanced so here is what I got so far.
xlr to RCA. Works real good. 
Waiting on the headphone balanced wires.


 Thank you.


----------



## Shane D

rrg123 said:


> Yes, you got it.
> 
> I'm also looking at the different cable combinations.
> My DAC is non-balanced so here is what I got so far.
> ...



If you're not sending out a balanced signal, what's the use of XLR termination?

Shane D


----------



## rrg123 (May 1, 2019)

Shane D said:


> If you're not sending out a balanced signal, what's the use of XLR termination?
> 
> Shane D


Ha, your right.
For now it just works until I get the balanced XLR 4 pin headphone re-wired.

The amp can do input from behind balanced XLR and out the front standard 1/4 Stereo headphone jack, NOT using XLR 4 pin yet.
I just choose the inputs and outputs so I can use it while I wait. Not my final setup, it's a work in progress.
The two rca to XLR wires were very cheap, both were $10 with shipping on cheapbay and just work.

I'm saving for a balanced DAC, future purchase.


----------



## Shane D

rrg123 said:


> I'm saving for a balanced DAC, future purchase.



You and me both!

Shane D


----------



## ksb643

Shane D said:


> You and me both!
> 
> Shane D


Check out the Sabaj DA 3 thread over on AC. I use mine with the PA 20 and sounds great for a 200 dollar combo.


----------



## Shane D

ksb643 said:


> Check out the Sabaj DA 3 thread over on AC. I use mine with the PA 20 and sounds great for a 200 dollar combo.



AC?

Shane D


----------



## Shane D

ksb643 said:


> Check out the Sabaj DA 3 thread over on AC. I use mine with the PA 20 and sounds great for a 200 dollar combo.



I am not really looking for a DAC/amp and I have portable amps now that I don't use (Topping NX3s and FiiO A5).

I have a few DAC's on my list:
1) Cambridge Audio DAC Magic plus. Maybe used.

2) NAD D-1050. Almost affordable locally. Thinking about making an offer.

3) ENOG2 Pro. Hate needing an adapter. Great price though.

4) SMSL SU-8. Almost bought this the other day on sale, but I don't use PayPal anymore. If MassDrop picks it up again, I will probably jump on.


Shane D


----------



## Shane D

ksb643 said:


> Check out the Sabaj DA 3 thread over on AC. I use mine with the PA 20 and sounds great for a 200 dollar combo.



It's funny, after you mentioning the above. I look on Amazon.ca and it is $149.00 (Canadian). I then go to Canuck Audio Mart and a guy is selling one for $75.00. It's like it is supposed to happen.

Shane D


----------



## ksb643

Shane D said:


> AC?
> 
> Shane D


Sorry didn't know if we're allowed to mention other forums. Audio Circle


----------



## Shane D

ksb643 said:


> Sorry didn't know if we're allowed to mention other forums. Audio Circle



Good forum? Lots of good info?

Shane D


----------



## Shane D

ksb643 said:


> Check out the Sabaj DA 3 thread over on AC. I use mine with the PA 20 and sounds great for a 200 dollar combo.


How do you have them cabled? I see the DAC/amp has 2.5mm balanced outs.

Shane D


----------



## ksb643

Shane D said:


> How do you have them cabled? I see the DAC/amp has 2.5mm balanced outs.
> 
> Shane D


There is a cable linked to in that thread that is 2.5 mm trrs and 3.5 mm TRS. The 4 pole for signal and the 3.5 you are using for the 2 grounds. It's terminated on the amp end in xlr.


----------



## Shane D

ksb643 said:


> Sorry didn't know if we're allowed to mention other forums. Audio Circle



I went over there and it turns out I have a log-in.

I went by there quite a while ago, but the headphone chatter was a very small part of the forum and so i moved on.

Shane D


----------



## ksb643

Shane D said:


> I went over there and it turns out I have a log-in.
> 
> I went by there quite a while ago, but the headphone chatter was a very small part of the forum and so i moved on.
> 
> Shane D


It's in the cheap and cheerful section. The thread is amazing dac's for peanuts.


Shane D said:


> I went over there and it turns out I have a log-in.
> 
> I went by there quite a while ago, but the headphone chatter was a very small part of the forum and so i moved on.
> 
> Shane D


It's in the cheap and cheerful section. The thread is amazing dac's for peanuts. The cable is about 75 bucks.


----------



## Shane D

ksb643 said:


> It's in the cheap and cheerful section. The thread is amazing dac's for peanuts.
> 
> It's in the cheap and cheerful section. The thread is amazing dac's for peanuts. The cable is about 75 bucks.



I found a guy selling the amp/dac for $75.00, home made balanced cable for $25.00 and shipping for about $12.00, Canadan $'s. 
I see there is no dedicated power cord though. It would likely drain my DAP fairly fast and I am not sure it would get enough power to do everything justice. My wish list is growing in both new and used. My new sound station should arrive tomorrow and it is time to get building. And then probably next week I will order my OTG cable. 
The DAC is _probably_ a month or two out, uinless a killer deal shows up.

Shane D


----------



## turbomustang84

Shane D said:


> I am not really looking for a DAC/amp and I have portable amps now that I don't use (Topping NX3s and FiiO A5).
> 
> I have a few DAC's on my list:
> 1) Cambridge Audio DAC Magic plus. Maybe used.
> ...


I've compared the Geshelli Enog2 to the Chord Mojo and it beat it hands down in clarity but being it's a mobile Dac/amp combo it was not a fair comparison but it blows away pretty much anything I've tried that is under $500 anyway  .
 I am looking forward to trying the Qutest and that seems like the Geshelli Enog2 will be at an unfair disadvantage but two out of the three people I know that own both have told me it's too close to call but I will wait till I can decide for myself ,

the third person that owns both is such a Chord Fanboy that it is impossible to get a conclusion that is anything other than him just gushing about Chord lol.

Since the release of the Enog2 I've seen none come for sale on eBay etc so that's a good indicator that people that bought it kept it .
Since I have not bought the P20 yet I'm running mine from the balanced outputs to my Audiosource EQ-ONE then to my Archel Headphone Amplifier via the 3.5mm input and it does sound better than using the RCA outputs.

I am getting the P20 this week and I will see how it works fully balanced and tubed .
But it sounds incredible now


----------



## Shane D

turbomustang84 said:


> I've compared the Geshelli Enog2 to the Chord Mojo and it beat it hands down in clarity but being it's a mobile Dac/amp combo it was not a fair comparison but it blows away pretty much anything I've tried that is under $500 anyway  .
> I am looking forward to trying the Qutest and that seems like the Geshelli Enog2 will be at an unfair disadvantage but two out of the three people I know that own both have told me it's too close to call but I will wait till I can decide for myself ,
> 
> the third person that owns both is such a Chord Fanboy that it is impossible to get a conclusion that is anything other than him just gushing about Chord lol.
> ...



My big thing is the USB output from my source. With the ENOG2 I have to buy an adapter. Maybe I should look more into them as it is a pretty good price.

Shane D


----------



## CADCAM

OK so _tuby sound_ asked for a comparison between the Little Dot MKIII and the Loxjie P20. First off the LD is being fed from Maverick Audio D2 DAC through its SS outputs from a NAD C542 cd player, the Loxjie is fed directly from my Oppo. The Loxjie definitely has more of a SS sound and seems to have more high frequency information coming through. The LD has that classic tube sound with more texture and smoothness. The shaker and talking drum sound better on the LD playing Jean Luc Ponty track #2 Savannah. The bass is also ever so slightly better on the LD also but the P20 sounds so good also... it's tough. The P20 sounds like it's reproducing the music accurately while the LD is adding its own classic tube sound to the music. More smoothness and smokey sounding on the LD vs a bit more sterile on the P20. The P20 does pretty well with the DT880's but the LD has more power and you can tell right away. The 880's are 600ohm so that's to be expected. I only demoed that one song but the LD was superior IMHO. It provided a tactical feel to each instrument that the P20 didn't or at least not to the same extent. I liked the sound of the P20 until I switched to the LD then I got hit with all that personality... texture and was sold. The P20 sounds fantastic though and I'm keeping it. It seems to be a half way point between my LD setup and my SS Keces setup.


----------



## Shane D

A DAC would make comparisons so easy. Plug the P20 in XLR and plug the Burson into the RCA's. Then just change your outputs via the DAC. It would be cool to do some quick A-B testing on certain songs.

Shane D


----------



## CADCAM

I've read the balanced outputs have a volume increase of 6db. Just to keep in mind.


----------



## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> I've read the balanced outputs have a volume increase of 6db. Just to keep in mind.



On what? I know my DAP has a large difference in output ports (balanced vs SE),  but there was no difference going into the P20 directly from the DAP.

Are you referring to the fact that a DAC would put out different levels for different outputs?

Shane D


----------



## CADCAM (May 2, 2019)

Now that I think of it my D2 has tube and SS outputs...I could run the LD (as it is now) through the SS output and the P20 from the tube output. Then I could just switch back and forth between the two amps, gonna try that and see if anything changes with the P20 sound.

And yes I've read on Audio Science Review that the balanced outputs are 6db louder than the unbalanced.


----------



## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> Now that I think of it my D2 has tube and SS outputs...I could run the LD (as it is now) through the SS output and the P20 from the tube output. Then I could just switch back and forth between the two amps, gonna try that and see if anything changes with the P20 sound.



Cool! Love to hear your results.

Shane D


----------



## tuby sound

CADCAM said:


> OK so _tuby sound_ asked for a comparison between the Little Dot MKIII and the Loxjie P20. First off the LD is being fed from Maverick Audio D2 DAC through its SS outputs from a NAD C542 cd player, the Loxjie is fed directly from my Oppo. The Loxjie definitely has more of a SS sound and seems to have more high frequency information coming through. The LD has that classic tube sound with more texture and smoothness. The shaker and talking drum sound better on the LD playing Jean Luc Ponty track #2 Savannah. The bass is also ever so slightly better on the LD also but the P20 sounds so good also... it's tough. The P20 sounds like it's reproducing the music accurately while the LD is adding its own classic tube sound to the music. More smoothness and smokey sounding on the LD vs a bit more sterile on the P20. The P20 does pretty well with the DT880's but the LD has more power and you can tell right away. The 880's are 600ohm so that's to be expected. I only demoed that one song but the LD was superior IMHO. It provided a tactical feel to each instrument that the P20 didn't or at least not to the same extent. I liked the sound of the P20 until I switched to the LD then I got hit with all that personality... texture and was sold. The P20 sounds fantastic though and I'm keeping it. It seems to be a half way point between my LD setup and my SS Keces setup.



Great comparison, thanks for that  

Have a nice day 
Kelvin


----------



## Shane D

Hello. I know we have members from around the world here, but I wanted to try speak to a much narrower group of readers. I am located in Halifax, Nova Scotia in Canada. I came across a thread where a Head-Fi'er had wondered about organizing a get together in Halifax. I wanted to post in this thread and talk to anybody that lives in or around Halifax or even if you were planning to visit the area in June. Just food for thought. If anyone is interested, you could post a reply in https://www.head-fi.org/threads/halifax-ns-meetup-2019.905499/

It would be cool if we could find five or six people with a few cool toys each. It could be a very interesting afternoon or evening.


Shane D


----------



## Shane D (May 13, 2019)

I got some Russian tubes today via the Ukraine. They had stickers on them so I guess they measure them to match them. Without stickers is stock.

Shane D


----------



## kr0mka

Hey guys, are there any shops that ship this little amp worldwide? I've found it on aliexpress, but it seems to be unavailable at the moment and Amazon doesn't ship them to Poland unfortunately. Is there any other source that sells them for around 100 usd and could ship to Poland?


----------



## magicscreen (May 14, 2019)

kr0mka said:


> Hey guys, are there any shops that ship this little amp worldwide? I've found it on aliexpress, but it seems to be unavailable at the moment and Amazon doesn't ship them to Poland unfortunately. Is there any other source that sells them for around 100 usd and could ship to Poland?


https://www.aliexpress.com/store/al....html?spm=a2g1y.12024536.pcShopHead_9372455.1
I have bought it from this shop.


----------



## kr0mka

magicscreen said:


> https://www.aliexpress.com/store/al....html?spm=a2g1y.12024536.pcShopHead_9372455.1
> I have bought it from this shop.


Yeah, it was unavailable before. I messaged the seller asking for availability and he brought the item back  Thanks


----------



## 472837

Have any of you experienced that the audio in the right side dies periodically, when the input is set to XLR (From Aune S6 Pro) and the output is single ended? I am not sure if I am supposed to be able to use XLR as input when using single ended output.


----------



## rrg123 (May 15, 2019)

I have XLR input to balanced headphone and no problems so far.
Works fine.

I would check different cables and see if the issue is still there.


----------



## arielext

Krellefdenmark said:


> Have any of you experienced that the audio in the right side dies periodically, when the input is set to XLR (From Aune S6 Pro) and the output is single ended? I am not sure if I am supposed to be able to use XLR as input when using single ended output.


Sounds like cable issues to me, switch the XLR cables and if the problem moves to the left channel you found your issue.


----------



## GravityEyelids

Nope i haven't experienced that issue either


----------



## Dobrescu George

I made a video on D10 from Loxije. I'm a reviewer, I'm doing my best to be honest. PLS be adviced, I can complain like crazy when something has issues  

May also wash away the idea that I'm too positive, I just have met a ton of good stuff in the past, when something is like D10, I have to talk a bit about its issues as well


----------



## arielext

D10 is not the same as P20; in alphabet, numbers, goal and amp type.


----------



## Dobrescu George

arielext said:


> D10 is not the same as P20; in alphabet, numbers, goal and amp type.



There's no official thread for D10, so my guess was that people looking at D10 would eventually come to the one Loxije thread around here


----------



## rrg123 (Jun 16, 2019)

Can someone with the balanced input (rear) and balanced outout (front) 4pin XLR to headphone do me a favor?

Remove one channel from the rear xlr connector and see if music bleeds into the headphone cup you removed.
You should only have music in one headphone cup and it should be dead silent in the other disconnected cup if all the wiring is correct.

Thank you in advance.


----------



## warbles

Anyone care to venture a take on how much of a boost into the aural stratosphere I might get by (presumably) upgrading to the Loxje from my present Sabaj PHA3 (w/ Nobsound pre-amp and suitably tube-rolled)? Oscillating madly and undecidably as usual between the 'thick' and the clinical (I have the same manufacturer's DA3 DAC), I'm thinking also no, maybe I'd go higher with a 7308 pimped Aune t1? Isn't the very idea of a tube DAC the way to approach the best of both worlds, clinical/unforgiving and meaty/thick....??


----------



## warbles

I'd love to have a better idea than I presently do what sort of upgrade I'd be achieving by getting this Loxjie when I already have the Sabaj PHA3, a similarly dimensioned little tube amp that, unlike the very same brand's DAC, has received next to NO coverage at all! A handful of positive comments from Amazon customers and that is IT.


----------



## chaotic_angel

Shane D said:


> My big thing is the USB output from my source. With the ENOG2 I have to buy an adapter. Maybe I should look more into them as it is a pretty good price.
> 
> Shane D



Hi Shane I am also eyeing egnog2 pro, what kind of adaptor you are talking about please. Noticong it doesn't have usb input.


----------



## Shane D

chaotic_angel said:


> Hi Shane I am also eyeing egnog2 pro, what kind of adaptor you are talking about please. Noticong it doesn't have usb input.



You have to get a USB to SPDIF converter. I.E. Behringer UCA222.

I didn't want to use a product that required a converter so I ended up getting an SMSL SU-8 DAC.

Shane D


----------



## turbomustang84

Finally I got the P20 and it sounds great .
But I have no clue if it's because it's Balanced or tube ...
LoL


----------



## turbomustang84

Might get this to add a USB option to my Geshelli Enog2.


----------



## chaotic_angel (Jul 3, 2019)

turbomustang84 said:


> Might get this to add a USB option to my Geshelli Enog2.



nice option for ENOG2Pro, wondering if the original output will be altered/colored by the Topping? i mean, double DAC.


----------



## turbomustang84

chaotic_angel said:


> nice option for ENOG2Pro, wondering if the original output will be altered/colored by the Topping? i mean, double DAC.


No clue ..but it was suggested it might reduce jitter. 
But I have no clue on that either but it definitely will add USB to the mix


----------



## Arum16 (Jul 4, 2019)

Hello,

I've just put together my setup. SMSL SU-8 DAC, LOXJIE P20 headphone amp.

I'm running it fully balanced, but I'm having a big issue: I'm getting no sound whatsoever.

My cans are ok for sure (HD6xx), on another setup they're absolutely fine.
No reason to doubt my set of cables (the cans' and the DAC-AMP interconnects)

My transport source is a Shanling M3s, outputing via USB into the DAC.

The DAC unit identifies correctly the audio stream's bit rate (44,1KHz, 192KHz, DSD64, DSD256) whichever I'm throwing at it, the DAC IDs it, no problem.

My Amp unit powers on, both tubes light up, and there is not much more about it: Input and output selected, and volume level.
I have two pairs of 6N3 tubes, the ones supplied with the Amp, and another one a matched pair from Reflector 6N3P-DR. To no avail. The end result is the same.

After all this troubleshooting process... Pure silence!!

Apart from getting an extra kit of unbalanced cables for troubleshooting purposes, could someone please point out some hints ?

Thanks, all help appreciated


----------



## turbomustang84

Arum16 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've just put together my setup. SMSL SU-8 DAC, LOXJIE P20 headphone amp.
> I'm running it fully balanced, but I'm having a big issue: I'm getting no sound whatsoever.
> ...




Are you connected only on the Balanced inputs ?
And do you have the P20 set to no1 input and no1 output ?


----------



## Shane D

That was going to be my idea. The same thing happened to me. I was panicking hard but then realized that I needed to change the input.

Shane D


----------



## Arum16

Thanks for your replies.

Yes. I'm using 3-pin XLR cables on the input, set as In2, and a balanced cable to the Headphone, set as Out1.

It's weird. Not a sound, no noise. Just silence.
I've got a voltmeter. Could check the pinout of those 3-Pin connectors for any signal coming from the DAC


----------



## Arum16

Got it !!!
Thanks turbomustang84 and Shane D

The Loxjie P20's way of selecting input/output connections is a bit unphasing.
In the manual it says "Input menu ... in2 Balanced input", but on the chassis the XLR ports are marked IN1, and let there be light!!! Or not, cause the Chinese tubes are plain horrible!! Could barely id Haydn's Opus 76 from my DAP

Thanks again guys,


----------



## turbomustang84

Arum16 said:


> Got it !!!
> Thanks turbomustang84 and Shane D
> 
> The Loxjie P20's way of selecting input/output connections is a bit unphasing.
> ...




Tell us how you like it.
I'm very impressed so far


----------



## Arum16

turbomustang84 said:


> Tell us how you like it.
> I'm very impressed so far



I'm pretty new to hi-res audio and audiophilia. My 1st amp is a portable solid state, so I don't have a large knowledge base to start with.
I can relate it to my parents oldy tube radio. not clean/pristine sound as my portable's, but with a hint of ooziness to it.

My setup has an hour worth of fly-time. Still has some kinks to be dealt with, but I'm liking it.
Shows promise, and for the asking price of 84.22€, i'd do it all over again.

I'll transition from my M3s to my PC as a source. DSD files and DSD output mode on my M3s is killing me. That's one of the kinks.


----------



## turbomustang84

Arum16 said:


> I'm pretty new to hi-res audio and audiophilia. My 1st amp is a portable solid state, so I don't have a large knowledge base to start with.
> I can relate it to my parents oldy tube radio. not clean/pristine sound as my portable's, but with a hint of ooziness to it.
> 
> My setup has an hour worth of fly-time. Still has some kinks to be dealt with, but I'm liking it.
> ...



Welcome to the Rabbit Hole


----------



## PaganDL

Jusr my humble opinion regarding the Loxjie P20 which I have had for a long time way before @GravityEyelids nor did I have any inclination to start a thread at the time.

Personally & subjectively, a very nice tube amp for $ 99 USD which doesn't get all that hot for a tube amp.

The closest desk tube portable I have to the P20 is the Elemental Watson M2 which while powerful with excellent clarity has absolutely terrible SNR (Stock Tubes) though not really surprising for a tube amp but I digress....
Also, P 20 has the quietest noise floor in a tube amp I own for actually using sensitive IEMs which I find highly amusing as very few tube amps, portable or otherwise, can be used with sensitive IEMs.

My P 20 is running stock tubes & I feel no urge to change them as yet, not to mention given my location, tricky to source good tubes as the shipping to me is often ridiculous.

Anyway, regarding the whole Balanced vs Single Ended debate whenever audio gear has balanced connection options, there are many factors to take into consideration though perhaps the leading one, at least on my end, is Balanced generally facilitates a stronger audio signal, whether this is a good thing or not is more than highly subjective.
As other specs like SNR, TND, FR, Impedence, etc as well as Sound Tuning all play a part in how this translates, as well as source & source recording quality.
Nor does this include we all hear differently, have different head, ear& canal shapes which make using head gear interesting at the best of times where comfort also plays a large part in enjoying sound, not just music.

In my personal setup, I have the option to run Balanced or Single Ended on several head amps, including the Loxjie P20.
Honestly, it doesn't really bother me which I use though when I use the P20 I tend to use it single ended all the way through.
As at low volumes from my source, which feeds another head amp Single Ended which serves as my audio signal pass through is actually louder audio levels wise, not just in volume than my balanced out which requires higher volume to reach the same level.
That is the main reason I just use Single Ended though I have played with switching the connections as P20 is among those few amps which doesn't really care input or output on an audio signal as long as there is one.
I also believe this is one of the few amps, tube or solid, which is probably wired well internally for both which is why it is possible to switch the input & output with no loss in signal.

Good to hear you're enjoying another tube amp, @Shane D

Oh, before I forget, by the way, in case no one realises, RCA to XLR isn't true balanced.
There is better chance for 3.5 TRRS or 3.5 mm Balanced to work better for full balanced all the way through with XLR or the other standard 1/4 TRS or TRRS to XLR.

Hope everyone has a great day !


----------



## CADCAM

I'd definitely spend the 15-20 bucks and get a matched pair of Russian tubes on the bay, made a positive audible difference in my system. 
Also I confused...I've read balanced gave a 6db boost to signal and you said _  "As at low volumes from my source, which feeds another head amp Single Ended which serves as my audio signal pass through is actually louder audio levels wise, not just in volume than my balanced out which requires higher volume to reach the same level."_
BTW I have a balanced cable on the way XLR to 2.5mm for my HE400i and am running balanced out of the SU-8 into the P20 already so I'm excited to hear the differences.


----------



## Shane D

PaganDL said:


> Good to hear you're enjoying another tube amp, @Shane D



Just to clarify, I don't have "another tube amp". I bought a second set of tubes which improved the sound from stock, but it's really not my thing.

I love my Burson, which is currently out of commission right now, and I have a new amp at the post office right now. The new model is a Liquid Carbon X from Massdrop and I will be grabbing it tomorrow.

Shane D


----------



## CADCAM (Jul 25, 2019)

Shane D said:


> Just to clarify, I don't have "another tube amp". I bought a second set of tubes which improved the sound from stock, but it's really not my thing.
> 
> I love my Burson, which is currently out of commission right now, and I have a new amp at the post office right now. The new model is a Liquid Carbon X from Massdrop and I will be grabbing it tomorrow.
> 
> Shane D


What happened to the Burson? Hope you enjoy the new Liquid Carbon Shane!

Also I had a 12V@5A power supply in the closet from an old class-D amp and put it on the P20.
I believe there is a noticeable positive improvement in SQ!
It's a ADP 15HB...looks like a laptop supply, I'm liking what it did to the P20 and I thought it sounded pretty good with the OEM ps. This thing scaled up with the matched tubes and now with a upgraded ps...can't wait til the balanced cable arrives!


----------



## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> What happened to the Burson? Hope you enjoy the new Liquid Carbon Shane!



The Burson has a break/short in the power wire. I started out by "jiggling" the wire to get it to work. Every day it has needed a stronger push/pull and now it just won't work. I have a new wire coming that is supposed to arrive tomorrow from Hong Kong.

I am going to compare the balanced amps head to head. The LCX is double the price of the P20 and I am hoping it will be Much better. But will it? Curious to see.

To clarify pricing in Canada, this amp and the tubes were $165.00, plus tax. The LCX (on sale) was $300.00, plus tax.

Very excited to get my Burson back and trying out the new toy.


Shane D


----------



## CADCAM (Oct 6, 2020)

Listening to my P20 & SU-8 combo using the HE400i, back to back against the Keces HA171 & DA131.1 stack with the DT990 Premium 600ohm...the Keces is a bit cleaner and slightly analytical sounding (in a really appealing way to me) but the DT990 is such a fun hp and the Keces is so freakin neutral it all just works so well together IMHO...but the P20\SU8 has a little more character. Where as the DT990 is the "fun" piece in the Keces stack the P20 seems to be the personality in the other setup. Both are being fed from my Oppo. The SU-8 is set to Apodizing & Standard.
It's tough for me to pic a "winner" here which is a big thumbs up to the P20 since the Keces retailed for at least 300 bucks I believe and is known to be a quality amp. I paid 95 for the little P20...
I'd have to give a slight nod to the Keces for clarity and clean clear detail but the P20 has a little something the Keces doesn't. If these were friends I'd want the Keces to help me study for an exam and I'd go out partying with the little P20. The P20 is ever so slightly tubey but still very detailed and not as smokey as my LD MKIII. The LD presents the music like a waft of smoke rolling through a dark club, very tubey sounding in my setup but I'm using a NAD cd player in that setup which is known to be a bit warm so maybe it's just the combination...at any rate the P20 is no where near as tubey sounding as the LD. It (P20) is a bit of the best of both worlds, a slight warmth but with enough detail and stage to keep you interested. BTW since I've gotten the P20 I'd say I've listened to it at least 80% of the time. That's a compliment!
At the price of admission this little thing has impressed me, like I said earlier get some matched Russians and an upgraded ps and this is very enjoyable with everything I throw at it.
Listened to some Dream Theater~6 Degrees, Bela Fleck~Cuckoo Nest and Lee Ritenour (tribute to Wes) tonight and loved it!
I'm already balanced from the SU-8 to the P20 now lets see what a balanced cable to the hp does next...


----------



## PaganDL

@Shane D,

Didn't you end up getting the Elemental Watson M2 at one stage or did you pass, sorry, I can't remember which is why I mentioned _'your second tube amp'_, so if this is in error, just let it pass.


Anyway @CADCAM,

Apologies if my explaination wasn't clear, my set up is as follows :

*
PC to Pro Audio Interface (SOURCE)

TO

Monitor Controller for Speakers & Balanced Connections[Main Audio Path Via Dual TRS to Dual XLR ] /
Head Amp with pass through for hifi amp to passive speakers (Secondary Audio Path Via Interface Single Ended Head Out)

TO

Other Head Amps, Including P 20

(Note : if audio signal is run Balanced from said monitor controller, there is lower noise floor to P 20 which already has a low noise floor to begin with so any level matching on Balanced with Single Ended requires louder volume adjustment)

*

Hope this makes more sense.

Hope you both have a great day !


----------



## muths66

Guys i planning to get p20 with smsl su8. But do you all think i able to use su8 via usb to my mobile to play music coz i 90% is using mobile than pc?


----------



## Shane D

muths66 said:


> Guys i planning to get p20 with smsl su8. But do you all think i able to use su8 via usb to my mobile to play music coz i 90% is using mobile than pc?



You should do some research on your phone. I bought a line out cable for my Sony DAP to feed my SMSL SU-8.
Most people, including Sony Canada, told me there was no such cable. But many months later a couple of people on the Sony ZX-300 thread told me it was possible and pointed me in the right direction. I ordered the cable from Japan and it works perfectly.

Shane D


----------



## muths66

Shane D said:


> You should do some research on your phone. I bought a line out cable for my Sony DAP to feed my SMSL SU-8.
> Most people, including Sony Canada, told me there was no such cable. But many months later a couple of people on the Sony ZX-300 thread told me it was possible and pointed me in the right direction. I ordered the cable from Japan and it works perfectly.
> 
> Shane D


i able to find usb b to type c. How's p20 on planar??


----------



## Shane D

muths66 said:


> i able to find usb b to type c. How's p20 on planar??



The P20 hasn't really impressed me much with any headphones.

Shane D


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## CADCAM (Jul 28, 2019)

I have the HE400i with the P20 and I'm impressed! I also have as reference a Keces HA-171, Little Dot MKIII and a SMSL SD-793II. The P20 with new tubes and a new PS sounds great in my setup which is an Oppo multi disc drive into a SU-8 feeding the P20 into the 400i. I'm balanced from DAC to amp and waiting on my balanced cable for the 400i. Even with the SE cable the P20 sounds very good IMHO, it's a bit more SS sounding than the LD but nowhere as analytical as the Keces. I really enjoy it and listen to it most of the time! The replacement tubes (matched Russians) and 12V@5A PS made a positive improvement. The tubes were like 20 bucks on fleabay and the PS was around 15.


----------



## Arum16 (Jul 28, 2019)

Shane D said:


> The P20 hasn't really impressed me much with any headphones.
> 
> Shane D


curious. Could you share with us? Were you expecting something specific from the P20, that it didn't deliver?
Thanks


----------



## Shane D

Arum16 said:


> curious. Could you share with us? Were you expecting something specific from the P20, that it didn't delivere?
> Thanks



It is probably ignorance on my part. I have read a lot about "tube sound", but never actually heard one. It really piqued my interest. As I started learning about tubes I learned that they may not work well with very efficient headphones, so I steered myself into a hybrid tube set up. After getting the P20, I thought it sounded like crap. After a couple of weeks it started to burn in or maybe I just adjusted and it sounded OK. When my Russian tubes finally arrived from the Ukraine it did open the amp up more. 

However compared to my Burson Fun-Classic it seemed way over matched. Yes, the Burson was double the price, but I just don't find the P20 excels in any area. The P20 was cheap, but I had to buy tubes, XLR's and a balanced cable also, so it is not real cheap.

If it is "tubey", I either don't notice it or don't care for it.

I haven't used it in weeks, but will be hooking it up next week to compare against my new amp, the LCX. I am going to have a little balanced showdown.

Shane D


----------



## Arum16

Shane D said:


> It is probably ignorance on my part. I have read a lot about "tube sound", but never actually heard one. It really piqued my interest. As I started learning about tubes I learned that they may not work well with very efficient headphones, so I steered myself into a hybrid tube set up. After getting the P20, I thought it sounded like crap. After a couple of weeks it started to burn in or maybe I just adjusted and it sounded OK. When my Russian tubes finally arrived from the Ukraine it did open the amp up more.
> 
> However compared to my Burson Fun-Classic it seemed way over matched. Yes, the Burson was double the price, but I just don't find the P20 excels in any area. The P20 was cheap, but I had to buy tubes, XLR's and a balanced cable also, so it is not real cheap.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing 
My own experience audiophile wise isn't extensive, but I remember my parents tube radio well, and the opening riffs of Smoke on the Water on it.

Anyway, I've established a roadmap in my head to go tubey: 
Build a setup around my HD6xx (ok, not the best bass hp). 
Get fully balanced cables from DAC to hp (hybrid FAW cables, got it). 
Get a DAC that can crunch up to DSD512 (SMSL SU-8, got it)
Get a LD MKVIII SE Amp. Now that's 835 UD$ + shipping + customs, and custom taxes are pretty steep in here (+33%)
Added to the LD equation, comes the upgrades I've read are mandatory to bring the MKVIII SE up to endgame level.
So I've "stumbled" upon the P20 while browsing on the net. Amazing price for an entry level, travel beginner, hp amp, with nice to have features.

Yes, it is a hybrid amp. Not that tubey, but I get good presentation, and bass got more detailed compared to my Shanlig M3s - iBasso PB3 amp.
I'm now sourcing from my PC and Foobar2K
I've also gone for the full upgrade on the P20: Reflector 6N3P-DR matched tubes and a new 6A @12v power supply. I can use the original PS to feed a RAM cooler kit if my P20 gets to hot.


----------



## Shane D

Arum16 said:


> Thanks for sharing
> My own experience audiophile wise isn't extensive, but I remember my parents tube radio well, and the opening riffs of Smoke on the Water on it.



My "system" has been growing and changing for four years as you can tell in my signature.  Currently:
Sony NW ZX-300 DAP Line Out to
SMSL SU-8 =
XLR to P20 or LCX
RCA to Burson Fun-Classic
I have a balanced cable that fits three of my four headphones.

As of last night I have a used pair of HD58X on the way.

Shane D


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## CADCAM (Jul 28, 2019)

My P20 sounded good right out of the box and after replacing the tubes (2x MATCHED 6N3P-E 6Н3П-Е OTK Double Triode Dynavox PAIR Tubes ECC42 6385 6N3) sounded even better.
I did some reading and from what I got you should go for the 6N3P-E not EV. Read comments from a few people who said they felt the EV didn't sound as good as the E...YMMV.
Anywho I'm glad I got the new tubes as it did make a positive difference. Then I read about the stock PS being $#!T and found a 12V5A supply (OEM is 12V1.67A) in my cable closet.
That really seemed to do real positive things with the detail and how things were rendered within the music. So at this point I'm lovin' it!

BTW I listen to only actual CD's and don't use a computer or phone as a source.

I am an older "audio-enthusiast" and have a great reference point IMO with regard to SQ as I have a Placette RVC being fed from a NAD C542 powered by twin McCormack dna amps vertically bi-amping Monitor Audio speakers in a dedicated listening room!
Wow that's a mouthful!! Ha ha great fun, great hobby!


----------



## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> My P20 sounded good right out of the box and after replacing the tubes (2x MATCHED 6N3P-E 6Н3П-Е OTK Double Triode Dynavox PAIR Tubes ECC42 6385 6N3) sounded even better.



The only constant I have seen in ten years on Head-Fi is that we all hear differently.

It is all just trial and error until you find something you like. And endless selling of failed experiments. At a loss of course. 

Shane D


----------



## DBaldock9 (Nov 11, 2019)

I bought one of the P20 Amps during the recent Amazon Prime Day Sale.
First thing I did was to open it up, unsolder the 4x JRC-5532 op-amps, and install machined pin sockets.
Then I plugged the op-amps into the sockets, and enjoyed listening to the amp.
I haven't assembled the balanced interconnects that I need for my system, so my Topping D70 is connected to the P20 with RCA cables, and my headphones / earphones are connected to the 6.5mm output jack.
.
Next, I'm going to order some longer 5-Pin FFC Ribbon Flex Cables, to connect the Front Panel Display & Control to the circuit board.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32846379613.html  *  EDIT:  These cables are the wrong width*.  *Order these instead -* https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000267244213.html
That way, they're less likely to be damaged during op-amp rolling.


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## rrg123 (Aug 2, 2019)

Great I've been waiting for some modifications to come along.

I would like to add some better output caps but I am not good at reverse engineering the board to locate them.

The socket modification is a great start. Keep up the effort. Please add pics.

ty


----------



## DBaldock9

They're using Muses & Wima capacitors in the audio path.


----------



## turbomustang84

I've tried several DACs with the P20 and I think the fact I can boost the power on the Geshelli Enog2 has been why mine works so well with my Hifiman HE-4XX and the HE-400 .

Still have not swapped tubes yet but I'm curious to see what difference it makes .

The P20 at 300Ω puts out 325mW but with the Geshelli Enog2 on medium or highest power it has no problem driving my Sennheiser's or my Planars with absolutely no distortion....

I still want to get a Darkvoice at some point because my vintage Telefunken Tube Console although not the most powerful Headphone out does add a richness to the sound but it's not in my listening room and at 200 plus pounds I can't exactly drag it around.
LoL


----------



## CADCAM

turbomustang84 said:


> I've tried several DACs with the P20 and I think the fact I can boost the power on the Geshelli Enog2 has been why mine works so well with my Hifiman HE-4XX and the HE-400 .
> 
> Still have not swapped tubes yet but I'm curious to see what difference it makes .
> 
> ...



I found these https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=176
I paid around 16 bucks for the matched pair I bought but they were not Reflector factory tubes which I hear are the best replacement in the P20. I'm prob gonna order these also...at a $1.50 each how can you not?? I want to hear if they are indeed "better".

Also I'd get a Little Dot MKIII instead of the Darkvoice as I've read the DV doesn't roll tubes as nice as the LD and can hum in some setups. I came very very close to pulling the trigger on the DV but ended up purchasing the LD and i been very happy! Spent some time rolling tubes in it and it was a blast. Settled on the Novosibirsk power tubes and EI 6HM5 Yugoslavian drivers, nice, very nice!
Just my 2cents...YMMV


----------



## muths66

Does anyone know am i able to temporarily use radsone es100 as dac to p20?


----------



## DBaldock9

muths66 said:


> Does anyone know am i able to temporarily use radsone es100 as dac to p20?



Yes, you can use the ES100 to drive the P20 - and the ES100 can act as either a USB DAC, or as a BT Receiver/DAC.
If you want a balanced connections, and you're handy at soldering, you can build something like this 2.5mm TRRS to Dual 3-Pin XLR cable, for quite a bit less than $58 - https://www.ebay.com/p/2-5mm-TRRS-B...Cable-for-Astell-kern-Ak240-Ak380/11012885695
Otherwise, for a single-ended connection, you can use a widely available 3.5mm TRS to Dual RCA cable, like this - https://smile.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-3-5mm-2-Male-Adapter-Stereo/dp/B01D5H8KO2


----------



## turbomustang84

CADCAM said:


> I found these https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=176
> I paid around 16 bucks for the matched pair I bought but they were not Reflector factory tubes which I hear are the best replacement in the P20. I'm prob gonna order these also...at a $1.50 each how can you not?? I want to hear if they are indeed "better".
> 
> Also I'd get a Little Dot MKIII instead of the Darkvoice as I've read the DV doesn't roll tubes as nice as the LD and can hum in some setups. I came very very close to pulling the trigger on the DV but ended up purchasing the LD and i been very happy! Spent some time rolling tubes in it and it was a blast. Settled on the Novosibirsk power tubes and EI 6HM5 Yugoslavian drivers, nice, very nice!
> Just my 2cents...YMMV


I've always wondered which performed better the two tube or 4 tube amps ...
Price between the two are close unless you get in on the $199 Massdrop deal for the Darkvoice


----------



## muths66

Guys may i ask what are the models for the tube that can be use for p20. i only know 6n3 and 5670. i saw there is quite a few more model like 6n3p too.


----------



## DBaldock9

turbomustang84 said:


> I've always wondered which performed better the two tube or 4 tube amps ...
> Price between the two are close unless you get in on the $199 Massdrop deal for the Darkvoice



Since the P20 is a hybrid, with the op-amps providing the current that drives the headphones - I suspect that higher output tubes probably aren't necessary in the P20.


----------



## DBaldock9

Yesterday afternoon, I did go ahead and assemble the Balanced 4-Pin XLR Plug -to- 2.5mm TRRS Jack Adapter, and verified that the wiring is correct, using the tests on AudioCheck.net.
.

 
.
 
.
 
.


----------



## Shane D

DBaldock9 said:


> Yesterday afternoon, I did go ahead and assemble the Balanced 4-Pin XLR Plug -to- 2.5mm TRRS Jack Adapter, and verified that the wiring is correct, using the tests on AudioCheck.net.
> .
> 
> .
> ...



Wow. Good luck!

Shane D


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## muths66 (Aug 4, 2019)

Shane D said:


> Wow. Good luck!
> 
> Shane D


i using xlr with cable to 2.5mm trrs female.


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## SierraMadre (Aug 4, 2019)

Hello P20 Owners!

Since I received my unit, one of the tubes is lit red by a tiny LED on the circuit board, right in the centre of the tube socket. This is instead of the purplish blue produced at the base of the other tube (which accordingly illuminates that tube purplish blue).

This red LED engages as soon as I turn the P20 on and it will remain that way during use.

The only exception is when I turn it on having not used it for a while, it will sometimes briefly stutter blue before settling on red and staying that way for the duration of the session. Re-seating the tube or changing tubes makes no difference and it is always red on the same side/socket.

Given that all the pics I have seen show two tubes of the same colour, am I right to assume this is some kind of error indicator? (Facing the front of the unit, the red tube in question is on the right).

Attached is a picture of the tube socket. The LED in question (it’s off / not lit in the picture, as I wanted to precisely specify the exact location) is situated in the tiny hole in the very centre of the white socket.

Has anyone else had this issue or can share any light (no pun intended) as to what it means?

Many thanks in advance.


----------



## rrg123 (Aug 5, 2019)

If you are brave, I would open the case and take a good picture of the bad side vs the good side socket.
Top of board and bottom.

Maybe you are able to see some bad solder or some extra small issue compared to the good side.
Be sure to remove the tubes for a good clear picture. Keep an eye on bulging capacitors as that is an indications of a failure.

Please note that I do not see any attached picture on your post.

my2cents


----------



## SierraMadre (Aug 5, 2019)

rrg123 said:


> If you are brave, I would open the case and take a good picture of the bad side vs the good side socket.
> Top of board and bottom.
> 
> Maybe you are able to see some bad solder or some extra small issue compared to the good side.
> ...


Hi, thanks for trying to help. I attached a pic and it’s there if I go to edit my original post but like you I don’t see it showing in the thread either. . . Perhaps because I am a relatively new user with out many likes/reccs, I don’t have pic posting privileges?

In lieu of a pic, here is a random tube socket listing on Amazon to illustrate. The LEDs are situated on the board right at the bottom of the hole in the center of the white tube socket ring/mount.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00KJJFHYQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_RZgsDbS4RTEF8

I’d rather not take the P20  apart as that would probably complicate returning it to Amazon.
I suppose I should just send it back, if what I’m experiencing is not normal behaviour from the unit.

Thanks again


----------



## rrg123

Send it back ASAP.
Now you know it's not normal.


----------



## SierraMadre

Yeah, think that’s all I needed really, confirmation that that was not normal operation.

Thanks again!


----------



## muths66

Guys i little dilemma thinking wanna get p20 a not coz my verum headphone is 8ohm.But someone is using saying is ok he say this(There will be heat at the point of highest resistance - the amp output. I experienced no issues from this but an mp with lower ouput resistance will not have this)
Should i skip?


----------



## magicscreen

muths66 said:


> Guys i little dilemma thinking wanna get p20 a not coz my verum headphone is 8ohm.But someone is using saying is ok he say this(There will be heat at the point of highest resistance - the amp output. I experienced no issues from this but an mp with lower ouput resistance will not have this)
> Should i skip?


P20 has 47 ohm output impedance. The low 8 ohm Verum Will change the frequency response so it may sound badly.
Recommended the high impedance headphones for the P20, like 300 ohm HD650.


----------



## muths66

tks.


----------



## robo24

Final Audio Pandora/Sonorous VI is also 8 ohm and sounds amazing on the P20.


----------



## CADCAM (Aug 12, 2019)

So I did get the Periapt balanced cable for my HE400i in yesterday and am now completely balanced from SU-8 to P20 to HE400i 
First time experiencing balanced design. So far I think it is very similar to the SE Newmusica after market cable I was running for the 400i but there is a subtle difference I'm hearing in the bass... it seems to have more "_body"_ and the little details between the stereo separation are accentuated.
It reminds me of when I was talking to Steve McCormack and he suggested I try vertical bi-amping instead of horizontal, that also seemed to make what the left and right channels were doing more apparent.
I really like it and it brings the overall stereo effects to life IMHO.
Vertical bi-amping splits the left and right channels and takes one amp and uses it for one speaker as one side runs the bass and the other side the highs while the other amp runs the other speaker. Horizontal uses one amp for the highs and the other amp for the lows. I have never gone back to horizontal after experiencing vertical.
So is the balanced equipment worth the price? I guess that depends on your particular circumstances. I'm a 52 year old enthusiast with the extra cash on hand to try it and to tell you the truth it really wasn't too expensive. I got the P20 for 95 bucks with a coupon on Amazon, the SU-8 was 199 when I got it and I had a 50 dollar gift card! The matched tubes were $16, the balanced cables were $78 so whats that? $338?
Not too bad I think.
Would I say the sound is $338 better than the SE sound? Probably not but it is nice to hear a ever so slight improvement in sq.
Again a great hobby!


----------



## PaganDL

muths66 said:


> Guys i little dilemma thinking wanna get p20 a not coz my verum headphone is 8ohm.But someone is using saying is ok he say this(There will be heat at the point of highest resistance - the amp output. I experienced no issues from this but an mp with lower ouput resistance will not have this)
> Should i skip?




@muths66,

P20 is among the few tube amps which have a ridiculously low noise floor or SNR in terms of physical listening, not necessarily gauged by measurements or specs.
Though as a general guide, any source &/or amp with a SNR more than 120 db listed is unlikely going to disrupt your listening experience unless you listen at really, really loud &/or at full volume which isn't recommended anyway due to hearing safety.
TND & crosstalk does factor in though is relative to a degree.
The heat referred to in _the point of highest resistance'_ is more than likely the voltage &/or current present in the amp overall, not just the output.
So the only likely way you could possibly to more than likely damage your Verum 1 or any other headphone is either by leaving it plugged in or plugging in when you switch on & off the amp &/or having the volume pot turned to any other value than 0.
This is especially true for vast majority of solid state amps more than tube as once the amp is on, the current is instaneous.
Though given nearly all tubes take at least a few seconds to warm up (20 to 30 seconds on average though larger tubes, 300B upwards take 500 seconds or more overall), leaving head gear plugged in to tube amps isn't advised either as this is just a signal delay to slow all the current going to the tube's heater plate all at once.

Personally, I sometimes use sensitve IEMs with the P 20 with no issues in sound or electronics.

As such, low impedence headgear is only an issue if said source gear has particularly built in high gain above +3 db though this tends to affect tube amps more than solid state due to some tubes having higher gain than others.

Hope this all makes sense, feel free to ask more if you need.


@magicscreen,

As stated to @muths66,

Low impedance head gear with the P20 is more than fine.
Having low impedence headgear doesn't change frequency response as these are set values by respective manufacturers in both head gear & said amp, even source will play a part in how said gear will handle the frequency range.
This *DEFINITELY IN NO WAY* affects frequency response as this is more a sonic change than anything else so not sure where you heard that as affecting frequency as this is complete BS.
Best results is determined by what a user experiences in their listening, not by impedance alone.

Hope everyone has a great day !


----------



## DBaldock9

The 4x OPA1622 (Dual Op-Amp (VSON-10) on DIP-8 header) that I ordered, have arrived.
They've been installed in the sockets that I soldered in my P20.
With their high current output, they do provide a good low Bass "thump".


BTW - Has anyone else considered cutting the P20 case in-half, so that the top can be easily removed - to do op-amp rolling (once sockets are installed)?


----------



## turbomustang84

DBaldock9 said:


> The 4x OPA1622 (Dual Op-Amp (VSON-10) on DIP-8 header) that I ordered, have arrived.
> They've been installed in the sockets that I soldered in my P20.
> With their high current output, they do provide a good low Bass "thump".
> 
> ...



I wish my soldering skills were better but due to medical problems I just shake too much to do anything too technical .
I do think this little amp has a lot of potential .


----------



## forestitalia (Sep 9, 2019)

I'm confused about this amp, better take time....
----....


----------



## warbles (Sep 8, 2019)

forestitalia said:


> I have this amp since a week now, do I need to take some pills before?
> WT Crap....


Grammar Committee here - pardon the intrusion ! We're dedicated to the satisfactory, indeed *fidelitous* reproduction of English sources!

"since" refers to a fixed point-in-time! I have had this amp since last Wednesday

"for" on the other hand refers to duration, to how much time has elapsed since (whatever) happened.

= you have had the amp FOR a week!


Many blessings,
The Committee


----------



## forestitalia (Sep 9, 2019)

_I have had the amp FOR a week!  
_
Thanks  .....I hope  grammar correction will improve the sound.


----------



## Arum16

Would you elaborate on your experience? Sources used, headphones, cables, settings?


----------



## CADCAM

Grammar Committee might need a full time job on this site 

Anyway my P20 sounds absolutely fantastic and I am thoroughly enjoying it!


----------



## forestitalia (Sep 10, 2019)

I try to elaborate, the amp is not bad generally speaking especially for the price, I jumped when read  someone considering it better than amplifiers that cost thousands $.
I have few cans at the moment, however I tried all:  balanced Sennheiser 58x and Akg K340; then Jvc sz1000, Grado sr60, Akg K501, several earbud KZ. Source Topping D10/Auralic Vega.
To my ears the P20 has not enough details/treble, with Senn and Jvc the bass is excessive. It has enough power to drive the K340, and that is impressive,  still low detail but acceptable. Probably the sound signature would match well with the hd800,  smoothing the high/enhancing the bass, unfortunately I no longer have the Senn 800 to try. The scene is very nice too.

That is my taste, I realized that this small amp has an army of fans, so must be me, my cans and the music I listen that don't fit.


Happy listening


----------



## CADCAM

I feed the P20 from an SMSL SU-8 DAC out to my HE400i with great results, the HE400i are probably contributing to the more than adequate detail. I've never been a fan of Sennheiser and only owned the HD600, HD598 & PX100's and can't comment on how they sound in my setup since I sold them all off long ago.
I bought matched tubes for the P20 and went full balanced on that whole system and I think it sounds great being fed from my Oppo as source.
It's fine if someone doesn't like a piece of equipment but should also post associated equipment for reference. There's a great deal of knowledge on this site and with some advise and mod suggestions I've heard some great music through my headphone setups. I'm a straight 2 channel audio enthusiast who converted to hp's several years ago. Still have the big system but hp's are just so convenient.


----------



## Shane D

Price wise, it is definitely worth trying at this price. I bought it and was unimpressed. I then ordered some Russian tubes from the Ukraine. It did get more open, but still didn't do it for me. I wondered what the problem was. Was it too tubey? Was it not tubey enough? Was it the output impedance? Was it just me? I had no idea. 

I then picked up the Cavalli Liquid Carbon X during Prime Days for $199.00 in US funds. This cost me double what I paid for the P20 and tubes.
It sounds Amazing and is my balanced amp of choice now. It even redeemed the HE4XX's, which I didn't think was possible.
The chain is ZX300 to SMSL SU-8 via XLR to LCX via XLR to all of my headphones with the exception of the Grado's.

My P20 will be going up for sale.

Shane D


----------



## PaganDL

@forestitalia, @Shane D,

Just my humble two cents, subjectively & personally, I find with the P 20, source is important, as well as source recording quality so it all depends, especially the synergy between source & P 20.

Anyway, as everyone has different tastes, it is tricky for things to please everybody, which is neither good nor bad, it just is.

Hope you find something which better suits your requirements, @forestitalia.

@Shane D, good to hear you're enjoying the CLCX, it is among my favourite amps, anyway, hope your experience with the P 20 doesn't discourage you from trying other tube amps.

Hope you both have a great day !


----------



## Shane D

PaganDL said:


> @forestitalia, @Shane D,
> 
> Just my humble two cents, subjectively & personally, I find with the P 20, source is important, as well as source recording quality so it all depends, especially the synergy between source & P 20.
> 
> ...



I would love to try a real tube amp, but all of my headphones are really efficient and apparently that won't work.

Shane D


----------



## PaganDL

Shane D said:


> I would love to try a real tube amp, but all of my headphones are really efficient and apparently that won't work.
> 
> Shane D




@Shane D,

_Real tube amp_ is relative as everyone will have their one or several which they would say is the one for them...
Also, I have heard some hybird tube amps which sound just as good, if not better than pure tube amps.
I'm sure there will certainly be some who will argue this point but that's just my humble, subjective opinion.
There are also many, many tube amps which don't sound all that great for various reasons so it is all highly personal as well.
It doesn't help where I am, I don't have access to a lot of the more boutique tube amps out there, especially from Europe or the USA so I can't comment how those sound in the grand scheme but those I have managed to hear all sound good to me to some degree.
The question is whether they are worth owning but no one can answer that but yourself.

Headphone efficiency doesn't have all that much to do with how a tube amp sounds in the grand scheme though that is largely subjective & I'm sure there will be someone who will disagree as they would be considering the measurements more than sound, etc...
Specs only go so far where tube amps are concerned.
As stated before, regardless of headphone, like with all audio gear in the chain, tube amps in particular, more than solid state, need a certain synergy to _SOUND GOOD_ to *YOU*.
The question which needs to be asked is whether you find something which works for you.
Ironically, nearly all my headphones, the most inefficient headphone I have is 150 Ohms, work well with the tube amps I have though some do work better than others but that is expected so it all depends.

As a side note, this doesn't include highly subjective tube upgradeitis against stock tubes either as most people's instinctive reactive urge is to upgrade said tubes without understanding stock tube's said characteristics, type & usage.
After all, every tube sounds different, even the same series, which doesn't necessarily include matched or at least you hope it's matched, etc.
More often than not, there are some pricey tubes which are potentially not worth it as much as they could be or vice versa, not to mention there are some highly affordable tubes which sound utterly terrible so once again, it all depends.
Like anything, there are tubes which _sound better_ than others.

How much gain & microphonics also plays a significant part in how a tube sounds & nearly all tubes can be adjusted in some way, depending on preference, of course.
Some even like higher gain tubes which can be adjusted accordingly.
Though the universal choice above most options when picking alternative &/or upgrade tubes is to have as low microphonics as possible, eg, less ringing &/or noise in the audio signal.

All you can do in trying a tube amp, be it real or hybird, which possibly suits you, is using the headphones you're most familiar &/or like, try to demo at the very least as many tube amps as you can, especially with those using different tubes, not just the same type &/or series.

Apologies for my potentially extended reply but hope this all makes sense.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## forestitalia (Sep 10, 2019)

PaganDL said:


> @forestitalia, @Shane D,
> 
> Just my humble two cents, subjectively & personally, I find with the P 20, source is important, as well as source recording quality so it all depends, especially the synergy between source & P 20.
> 
> ...



it's ok, I've been too rude with my first post. It is an amp that work ok with some headphones and kind of music, not too much with other cans, but is taste wise.
I prefer neutral amplifier such as the Cayin iHA6 I'm listenig now with Sony Z1R, it is more than enough bass for me: album Duke Wellington & John Coltrane.. ...source Auralic Vega


----------



## Shane D

PaganDL said:


> @Shane D,
> 
> _Real tube amp_ is relative...
> 
> ...



Thank you for the VERY detailed reply. All the talk about and the look of tube amps piqued my interest. When I say "real tube amp", I am referring to OTL amps. I have still never heard one and there is nowhere in my part of the world to hear one. The hardest to drive headphones that I have are the HE4XX's and the HD58X's. The other four pairs are 32 Ohm.

I bought the P20 because it was cheap and I had hoped it would give a sense of "tubeyness". Either it doesn't have any or if it does, I am unimpressed. The amp and the tubes cost me about $165.00, plus tax (in Canada). To get a DarkVoice or similar, I would be looking at a minimum double that amount. And then if it didn't move me, yet another piece of headgear sold at a significant loss. Too much for me without testing first.

I think I will just live with my Burson Fun/LCX combo for now and keep an eye out in the used market for something interesting.

Shane D


----------



## CADCAM (Sep 12, 2019)

I have the Little Dot MKIII which is an OTL tube amp, I usually run my DT880 600 ohm hp's from this unit and with a little tweaking from my AudioControl EQ the sound is superb. Very bloomy, smooth classic tube sound IMHO. Not too much mind you, I had a Sansui 1000A (23 tubes!) back in the day and I'll tell you that thing was tubby sounding! Contrasting that sound the P20 sounds almost SS"ish" to me but with just enough deviation to make you ask _is there a tube in there somewhere contributing something to the sound?_
I use a SMSL DAC to feed the P20 which has a vast array of sound options that are so infinitesimally small it's tough to distinguish between. I seemed to have settled on Apodizing and Standard but sometimes I spend too much time experimenting with them and to tell the truth I really like most of them. Even though the P20 has much more of what I would say is a SS type sound sig it is nowhere near as analytical and neutral as my Keces amp which is like a correctional officer when it comes to reproducing the sound of a recording.
I really enjoy the P20...listening to it right now with some Willie & Lobo ~ Rockin Gypsies and man everything sounds right. Maybe I'm getting good synergy with the Oppo, maybe it likes the SMSL DAC and the fact I'm running balanced but I'm searching for something to complain about.
That's why this hobby is so cool, you can have several different setups that wouldn't be practical in full size 2 channel stereo systems. And the best thing is you don't necessarily have to have a silent empty house to listen!


----------



## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> I have the Little Dot MKIII which is an OTL tube amp, I usually run my DT880 600 ohm hp's from this unit and with a little tweaking from my AudioControl EQ the sound is superb. Very bloomy, smooth classic tube sound IMHO. Not too much mind you, I had a Sansui 1000A (23 tubes!) back in the day and I'll tell you that thing was tubby sounding! Contrasting that sound the P20 sounds almost SS"ish" to me but with just enough deviation to make you ask _is there a tube in there somewhere contributing something to the sound?_
> I use a SMSL DAC to feed the P20 which has a vast array of sound options that are so infinitesimally small it's tough to distinguish between. I seemed to have settled on Apodizing and Standard but sometimes I spend too much time experimenting with them and to tell the truth I really like most of them. Even though the P20 has much more of what I would say is a SS type sound sig it is nowhere near as analytical and neutral as my Keces amp which is like a correctional officer when it comes to reproducing the sound of a recording.
> I really enjoy the P20...listening to it right now with some Willie & Lobo ~ Rockin Gypsies and man everything sounds right. Maybe I'm getting good synergy with the Oppo, maybe it likes the SMSL DAC and the fact I'm running balanced but I'm searching for something to complain about.
> That's why this hobby is so cool, you can have several different setups that wouldn't be practical in full size 2 channel stereo systems. And the best thing is you don't necessarily have to have a silent empty house to listen!



Do you have any easy to drive 'phones that you run through the Little Dot? I would like to know what happens you run an OTL into 32 Ohm headphones.

Shane D


----------



## DBaldock9

Installed a matched pair of 6N3P-E tubes, from Riverstone Audio - but then discovered that one of the OPA1622 op-amps I had plugged in to the DIP-8 sockets, was flaking out and making noise. So I have to deal with that, before I can check out the new tubes.


----------



## CADCAM

Shane D ~ I have the Superlux EVO that I power from the LD sometimes and they are 32 ohms, no problems with them. No hiss or sound problems. You don't get too much volume adjustment with them though. It can get loud quick! I do have a collection of IEM but rarely listen to them anymore. Also the LD has four gain settings and I'm on 5 I believe and the setting are 3-4-5-10 with 10 obviously being high gain.

DBaldock9 ~ That stinks my friend, I saw the Riverstone tubes also and was thinking of trying them. Wonder if there would be an improvement over the matched Russians I got when I first purchased the amp...


----------



## DBaldock9

I do have a set of 4x LME49720HA (TO-9 metal case) op-amps, that I could plug into the P20, but I think I prefer the sound of the OPA1622.
I really like the sound of the OPA627AU, but they're Mono, so I'd have to buy 8 of them, at $23.80 each.


----------



## Shane D

CADCAM said:


> Shane D ~ I have the Superlux EVO that I power from the LD sometimes and they are 32 ohms, no problems with them. No hiss or sound problems. You don't get too much volume adjustment with them though. It can get loud quick! I do have a collection of IEM but rarely listen to them anymore. Also the LD has four gain settings and I'm on 5 I believe and the setting are 3-4-5-10 with 10 obviously being high gain.
> 
> DBaldock9 ~ That stinks my friend, I saw the Riverstone tubes also and was thinking of trying them. Wonder if there would be an improvement over the matched Russians I got when I first purchased the amp...



Thanks for the reply. I never heard of Superlux and had to Google them.

I wonder why people say that OTL amps won't be impressive with efficient headphones?

Shane D


----------



## DBaldock9 (Sep 14, 2019)

My project for today, was to cut my P20 "in half".  
.
First, I went to the Hardware Store and bought a set of 8x M3.5 x 10mm Phillips screws, to replace the stock Torx & Allen head screws.
I also bought some new hacksaw blades.
After cutting the case, I went over the exposed edges with a Red Sharpie Permanent Marker.
.
This is the result -
(NOTE: There are 4x LME49720HA (TO-99 round metal case) op-amps in the sockets that I installed.)
.


.


----------



## CADCAM

Shane Superlux are great for the small price of admission, the hd668b sound balanced and neutral while the HD681 EVO are a super fun bass oriented can.
DBalbock9 the case looks great! I had to look a few times to detect what you did. Way easier access though!
I have access to a wire EDM machine that can cut any metal very accurately...maybe I'll bring my cover into work and cut it also.
I used to roll op-amps a while back and rreally enjoyed the AD823 & TLE-2082 if I'm remembering correctly.


----------



## LordZero

Hi!

Anyone tried this "stock" with the dt880 600ohms? It's good? If I should change something, what should I change?


----------



## ephrank

Been running my P20 with stock tubes for several months. I've got a 12V linear PSU and some 6N3P-E tubes coming.

Will the upgrades make HE4XX (balanced) sound fuller?


----------



## magicscreen

ephrank said:


> Been running my P20 with stock tubes for several months. I've got a 12V linear PSU and some 6N3P-E tubes coming.
> 
> Will the upgrades make HE4XX (balanced) sound fuller?


I have only an HD6XX and using a SMPS filter unit which give a linear PSU quality. That is huge sound quality difference in a better way. Bigger soundstage, better bass and timbre.
Using the 6N3P-EV tubes, I think they are better than the chinese stock tubes.


----------



## ephrank

Today I listend to my GR07 Classic's on the P20, via Massdrop 2.5mm to XLR adapter. Woah, the synergy was very, very good!

GR07 benefit from that little bit of warmth, the combo is musical, female vocals sounded very nice.



magicscreen said:


> That is huge sound quality difference in a better way. Bigger soundstage, better bass and timbre.



Can't wait for my PSU to arrive


----------



## Mark James Richardson

DBaldock9 said:


> I bought one of the P20 Amps during the recent Amazon Prime Day Sale.
> First thing I did was to open it up, unsolder the 4x JRC-5532 op-amps, and install machined pin sockets.
> Then I plugged the op-amps into the sockets, and enjoyed listening to the amp.
> I haven't assembled the balanced interconnects that I need for my system, so my Topping D70 is connected to the P20 with RCA cables, and my headphones / earphones are connected to the 6.5mm output jack.
> ...



Hi David! I am waiting for a P20 to get here which I bought last night and would love to install the machined pin sockets. Would you mind telling me where they can be obtained? This sounds like the most amazing hobby, especially as critical listening is my job as a piano/ music teacher. I am also waiting on some HD6XX cans to arrive. This is my first post and I'm stoked to be here so hello to every one!
ps.  In support I have an account at both tube store.com and hifi collective... Loving it.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Nov 11, 2019)

DBaldock9 said:


> I bought one of the P20 Amps during the recent Amazon Prime Day Sale.
> First thing I did was to open it up, unsolder the 4x JRC-5532 op-amps, and install machined pin sockets.
> Then I plugged the op-amps into the sockets, and enjoyed listening to the amp.
> I haven't assembled the balanced interconnects that I need for my system, so my Topping D70 is connected to the P20 with RCA cables, and my headphones / earphones are connected to the 6.5mm output jack.
> ...



*NOTE:  It turns out that the first set of 5-Pin FFC Ribbon Flex Cables that I ordered - were the wrong width.  The correct width longer cable, is this one - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000267244213.html *



Mark James Richardson said:


> Hi David! I am waiting for a P20 to get here which I bought last night and would love to install the machined pin sockets. Would you mind telling me where they can be obtained? This sounds like the most amazing hobby, especially as critical listening is my job as a piano/ music teacher. I am also waiting on some HD6XX cans to arrive. This is my first post and I'm stoked to be here so hello to every one!
> ps.  In support I have an account at both tube store.com and hifi collective... Loving it.



The low profile DIP-8 sockets that I bought from Mouser, are the Mill-Max (P/N: 115-43-308-41-003000) - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mill-Max/115-43-308-41-003000?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs/Sh/kjph1tvt1/mEPT/XoHngJTF1udAc=
*NOTE: These can't be stacked, without damaging the sockets - since the outer diameter of the solder tail is larger than the acceptable range of pin widths that can be inserted.*

Because of the height of the P20 case, you don't really need the low profile sockets, so you could order the standard Mill-Max DIP-8 socket (P/N: 110-13-308-41-001000) - https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mill-Max/110-13-308-41-001000?qs=/ha2pyFadugNqN7TEfSg9dgVPVw4Cip4QS1IvzyqsD4nViX%2B7uIdxq0MjFrVtLjW
These can be stacked, since the solder tails are 0.020 outer diameter, and they can accept pins that are 0.015 - 0.025 diameter.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Thanks a lot David and I'm thinking for this job I should go to a tech. However by the time it gets here I might be more brave and decide to have a go, never used a solder sucker before... I will definitely make a balanced hp cable though and a mic lead made from silver wire from Hifi Collective, all info sourced from this forum!!  Amazing resource.


----------



## NiTROAUDiO

So I am about to purchase some new tubes and a new ps for the p20. Cam this unit handle more than 5 amps ? Like 10amp or 20amp. Or should I stick with 5. Also I'm pretty good at soldering how hard is it adding dip to do op amp rolling


----------



## DBaldock9 (Nov 21, 2019)

NiTROAUDiO said:


> So I am about to purchase some new tubes and a new ps for the p20. Cam this unit handle more than 5 amps ? Like 10amp or 20amp. Or should I stick with 5. Also I'm pretty good at soldering how hard is it adding dip to do op amp rolling



The Amplifier circuit is only going to draw as much current as it needs - so a quality replacement 12Vdc power supply that has at least as much output current capability as the stock supply, should work just fine.
According to reviews on Amazon (I'm not at home right now, to look at the supply), the stock supply is 12Vdc @ 1.67A.
Using a much higher current supply (10A - 20A) shouldn't hurt anything, but they will be larger, and probably produce more heat.
The most economical 12Vdc Linear (not switching) 6A - 12A supplies that I've seen, are the Pyramid bench supplies - https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=pyramid+power+supply

If you've got a good de-soldering device (and plenty of desoldering braid - for cleanup), then removing the soldered on DIP-8 op-amps, and installing sockets isn't very difficult.
I've got a Velleman VTDESOL3U, and it works well - https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B88FRME/

If you look back one page, you'll see where I cut my P20 case in-half, so that the top can be lifted off, to make op-amp rolling much easier.


----------



## CADCAM

Those numbers do sound correct for the stock ps, I replaced mine with a 12V 5amp supply and it made a noticeable positive improvement in perceived sound quality. Not exactly sure why the sq improved but I'd never consider going back to the stock ps. Maybe someone could comment on the benefits of an upgraded power supply, I would assume perhaps a cleaner power and more available in a shorter time frame when the music called for it...


----------



## DBaldock9

CADCAM said:


> Those numbers do sound correct for the stock ps, I replaced mine with a 12V 5amp supply and it made a noticeable positive improvement in perceived sound quality. Not exactly sure why the sq improved but I'd never consider going back to the stock ps. Maybe someone could comment on the benefits of an upgraded power supply, I would assume perhaps a cleaner power and more available in a shorter time frame when the music called for it...



Do you remember whether the power connector is 5.5mm x 2.1mm or 2.5mm?


----------



## NiTROAUDiO

Hey man what op amps and tubes do you recommend for this. Also I am buying XLR cables to balanced 2.5mm to my Fiio Q5 will that give me balanced output. Also can I run 6922 tubes in this.


----------



## CADCAM

DBaldock9 said:


> Do you remember whether the power connector is 5.5mm x 2.1mm or 2.5mm?


I do not but I will check asap


----------



## Mark James Richardson

I thought it was 2.5... hope so, just ordered a meanwell ps, 12v 6.67 A.  My p20 got here yesterday and she sure needs to burn in for an hr or so but then she starts to opens up nicely


----------



## Arum16 (Nov 22, 2019)

Power connector is 5.5mm x 2.5mm. I upgraded to a 12V/6A power supply and had to add a female 5.5x2.1mm to 5.5x2.5mm male adapter.
The original power supply is powering a memory cooler fan. The tubes never get too warm. I'm hoping to extend the tubes' lifespan


----------



## DBaldock9

CADCAM said:


> I do not but I will check asap





Mark James Richardson said:


> I thought it was 2.5... hope so, just ordered a meanwell ps, 12v 6.67 A.  My p20 got here yesterday and she sure needs to burn in for an hr or so but then she starts to opens up nicely





Arum16 said:


> Power connector is 5.5mm x 2.5mm. I upgraded to a 12V/6A power supply and had to add a female 5.5x2.1mm to 5.5x2.5mm male adaptor.
> The original power supply is powering a memory cooler fan. The tubes never get too warm. I'm hoping to extend the tubes' life span



Thanks for the replies!

Home now - just looked at the connector through a magnifying lens, with a millimeter scale held up to it, and I can confirm what @Arum16 said about it being 2.5mm.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Excellent news.


----------



## cirodts

the amiron in unbalanced drives them well?


----------



## DBaldock9

NiTROAUDiO said:


> Hey man what op amps and tubes do you recommend for this. Also I am buying XLR cables to balanced 2.5mm to my Fiio Q5 will that give me balanced output. Also can I run 6922 tubes in this.



Since the P20 is a hybrid amp, using tubes for the voltage gain, and op-amps for delivering the current to the load - I'm using OPA1622 high current op-amps (from eBay) in mine.
The 6922 is apparently compatible, but has a different pin-out, so you'll need adapters - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tube-adapter-for-5670-2c51-396a-to-6922-6dj8-ecc88


----------



## NiTROAUDiO

Ok awesome. Because I also have a Alex Cavalli Tube Hybrid which uses 6922 tubes. So I can buy an adapter then buy a set of tubes and just go back and fourth.


----------



## NiTROAUDiO

How much of a difference does the op amps make. Also, would you consider the sa200 from douk audio or any boutique brands.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

NiTROAUDiO said:


> How much of a difference does the op amps make. Also, would you consider the sa200 from douk audio or any boutique brands.



Interesting, lets throw the Burson V5 op amp into this mix as well...thoughts anyone? I like the idea of turning my P20 into a fully blown, nitro fuelled hotrod but I guess we need to know of any limiting factors for which diminishing returns may overwhelm improvement


----------



## DBaldock9

NiTROAUDiO said:


> How much of a difference does the op amps make. Also, would you consider the sa200 from douk audio or any boutique brands.



I hadn't heard about the Douk Audio HiFi SA200 (Dual Discrete Class A Op-Amp) until you mentioned it - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Douk-Audio...p-Module-Replace-MUSES02-SS3602-/273892617949
It does look interesting, and well made, from the photos on the eBay site.
The SA200 ($82) is about the same price as the Sparkos SS3602 ($83), and more expensive than the Burson V6 (Classic or Vivid) ($75).
Currently, my favorite op-amps are - Sparkos SS3602, Dual OPA627AU on DIP-8 adapter, Burson V6, OPA1622 on DIP-8 adapter.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Dave your fav op amps you listed, I presume are in relation to rolling in the P20 is that correct?


----------



## DBaldock9

Mark James Richardson said:


> Dave your fav op amps you listed, I presume are in relation to rolling in the P20 is that correct?



No, I mean overall. The only Dual op-amps that I have 4 of (to use in the P20), are the stock JRC 5532D, various other NE5532, LME49720HA, & OPA1622.


----------



## Mark James Richardson (Nov 26, 2019)

Man alive, so that means $312.00 US to roll in Sparkos!!!  (ebay $78 from Sparko)


----------



## Mark James Richardson (Nov 26, 2019)

But what about the sound........... Has anyone done it ? Would love to know. What could a Head Fier expect? I mean, are we talking giant killer here?


----------



## NiTROAUDiO

Also does anyone know if I could do RCA in the back then use the xlr in the front and use the balance feature


----------



## bgtip

NiTROAUDiO said:


> Also does anyone know if I could do RCA in the back then use the xlr in the front and use the balance feature


Yes, you can. That was my setup. Results in wider soundstage.


----------



## DBaldock9

NiTROAUDiO said:


> Also does anyone know if I could do RCA in the back then use the xlr in the front and use the balance feature



Yes.  You have the option of selecting either Input (Single-Ended / Balanced), and either Output (Single-Ended / Balanced), using the multi-function Knob / Button.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

So I have now had the P20 for 11 days and HD6xx cans for 4 days. Added a meanwell ps (improvement subtle at best...further listening perhaps required) and awaiting a Periapt balanced cable to arrive and a pair each of GE 5570, 6N3p-DR and 6N3P-E valves. Spotify listening mostly, some vinyl/ reel to reel, balanced in using a Metric Halo ULN8 for conversion. Ok.... even with the stock valves the P20 sounds phenomenal. This baby is a valve amp to be sure. My buddy has a Pioneer stereo valve amp and I was immediately taken back to it by the P20's bottom end. But not as slow and muddy as the Pioneer. This hybrid is a wonderful blend. Expect a few hrs burn in time and then ya golden. I have had a Fender valve amp  and know how much difference valves make. To think this little beast will sound better is hard to believe but we shall see. If the sound improves or not I am very happy as it stands but I'm sure there will be improvement and literally can't wait for my new valves to get here. Re. gain staging I run the P20 flat out and volume control from the source, not always possible eg cd players but cleaner detail and better bottom end can be expected. I am so lmpressed I'm not sure now that I will opamp roll. Mind you I did buy the torx screwdriver today required to take this thing apart so we shall see.... The P20 would now have a 100 hrs on it at least with leaving on overnight etc but sometimes I still feel like the sound is improving. The Loxjie P20 just keeps on giving. Stoked!


----------



## dpump

6N3P-DR are the best tubes I have found for the P20. The 5670 and 396A are good tubes, but not really an ideal match with the Loxji. 6N3P-E doesn't improve on the stock tubes. I also use the 6N3P-DR in some of my other amps and find they are also excellent.


----------



## PaganDL

@dpump,

Well DR versions are Miltary Spec so I expect them to work subjectively _'best'_ or at least close, not to mention last a long, long time to though I did use the stock tubes for a long time before changing it up.
E versions are essentially what stock tubes are so unless the sound flavour was much to significantly different, I wouldn't expect an improvement.

Just curious, what other tube amps are you using which use DR version?

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## dpump

PaganDL said:


> @dpump,
> 
> Well DR versions are Miltary Spec so I expect them to work subjectively _'best'_ or at least close, not to mention last a long, long time to though I did use the stock tubes for a long time before changing it up.
> E versions are essentially what stock tubes are so unless the sound flavour was much to significantly different, I wouldn't expect an improvement.
> ...



I'm using 6N3P-DR in my Garage1217 Ember and in the Monoprice tube headphone amp. Have to use an adaptor in the Garage1217 Ember. The Monoprice came with a pair of Chinese 6N3 tubes. I tried 3rd generation WE 396A in the Monoprice but I prefer the 6N3P-DR. 

The Monoprice tube amp is a steal right now. Original list price was $399 and it is on sale for $189.90 with free shipping.. I have had mine for 9 days and it has been sounding better and better with use. Output tube crosses to 6AS7/6080/421. I'm using a Toshiba 6080 along with the two 6N3P-DR tubes and it is now totally quiet with 32 ohm to 600 ohm phones. Yes it is a Chinese made amp with typical Chinese parts, but I removed the cover to check the construction and it is very nice. The chassis and front panel are very solid and the amp weighs 20-22 pounds. You can't touch it for the price and quality. I seem to always like the sound of amps using the 6AS7/6080 output tube; always has a very powerful and full sound.


----------



## PaganDL

dpump said:


> I'm using 6N3P-DR in my Garage1217 Ember and in the Monoprice tube headphone amp. Have to use an adaptor in the Garage1217 Ember. The Monoprice came with a pair of Chinese 6N3 tubes. I tried 3rd generation WE 396A in the Monoprice but I prefer the 6N3P-DR.
> 
> The Monoprice tube amp is a steal right now. Original list price was $399 and it is on sale for $189.90 with free shipping.. I have had mine for 9 days and it has been sounding better and better with use. Output tube crosses to 6AS7/6080/421. I'm using a Toshiba 6080 along with the two 6N3P-DR tubes and it is now totally quiet with 32 ohm to 600 ohm phones. Yes it is a Chinese made amp with typical Chinese parts, but I removed the cover to check the construction and it is very nice. The chassis and front panel are very solid and the amp weighs 20-22 pounds. You can't touch it for the price and quality. I seem to always like the sound of amps using the 6AS7/6080 output tube; always has a very powerful and full sound.




Thanks @dpump,

Interesting info.

Unfortunately, given I am outside the US, shipping to where I am is kind of ridiculous price wise, not to mention at current exchange rate, USD is about 1.8 so not any time soon.

By the way, since you seem to like Russian tubes, I suggest looking into tubes made by Reflector, they make great affordable tubes.
Either thetubestore.com or tube-store.com are great sources.

This is slightly off topic & keep in mind, I haven't tried it for reasons given above but the Cavalli Liquid Platinum seems definitely worth a shot. I have the CTH which is no way similar aside from using a single 6922 tube but does give you a good idea on how Cavalli tunes his amps.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## warbles

At this juncture, as complete ignoramus amplifier-modswise, and with all these mods pouring forth daily, I felt it might be pertinent to ask whither the original Loxje product? What are its virtues in the raw? After all these ops have been performed on the unit, what remains, as it were, of the reasons you bought heem in the first place?


----------



## DBaldock9

warbles said:


> At this juncture, as complete ignoramus amplifier-modswise, and with all these mods pouring forth daily, I felt it might be pertinent to ask whither the original Loxje product? What are its virtues in the raw? After all these ops have been performed on the unit, what remains, as it were, of the reasons you bought heem in the first place?



Out of the box, it's a good sounding Amp, and probably the least expensive model that has both Single-Ended & Balanced Input & Output.


----------



## Mark James Richardson (Dec 1, 2019)

It sounds great. However if you feed it the hp out from a phone or listen on trashy $10 hp then not so good.  With HD6XX it is gorgeous, but they are over twice the price of the amp! Op amp rolling is for the geek in us but def not essential. I did read on the gearslutz forum where the op amps in the P20 are the same used in the mighty SSL mixing desks of the 80's, 90's. The epitome of analogue sound and still widely used at the highest level in recording studios today. Considered by many to be "the" sound. So yep, just plug 'er in and enjoy.


----------



## warbles

Mark James Richardson said:


> It sounds great. However if you feed it the hp out from a phone or listen on trashy $10 hp then not so good.  With HD6XX it is gorgeous, but they are over twice the price of the amp! Op amp rolling is for the geek in us but def not essential. I did read on the gearslutz forum where the op amps in the P20 are the same used in the mighty SSL mixing desks of the 80's, 90's. The epitome of analogue sound and still widely used at the highest level in recording studios today. Considered by many to be "the" sound. So yep, just plug 'er in and enjoy.


Wow! Thanks for this! Got me wondering tho from where on earth those Chinese chaps could have rounded up such illustrious componentry..?


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Ebay I guess........


----------



## warbles

Mark James Richardson said:


> Ebay I guess........


But if this were true would not the fellows at Loxje already be pasting such a fact up large in their advertising?


----------



## Mark James Richardson

What, that MJ questioned why the mix wasn't sounding as good as yesterday and it was because they weren't using the SSL....


----------



## Mark James Richardson

You tell 'em Warbles, I reckon there's a freebee in it for ya!


----------



## Arum16 (Dec 4, 2019)

PaganDL said:


> Thanks @dpump,
> 
> Interesting info.
> 
> ...


I've got my 6N3P-DR from this site here. It's based in the Netherlands.

Direct url for the 6N3P-DR (scroll down. they're at the bottom)
https://www.tubesandrecords.com/pre-amplifier-tubes/ecc83-12ax7-5751-7025/

There's a nice range of tubes, including the above as matched pairs with variations on error % for the matching parameters.

Hope this might help.


----------



## Mark James Richardson (Dec 4, 2019)

My Reflector 6N3P-DR valves arrived from Russia cpl days ago and without burning in there is still a marked improvement.  The meanwell ps is now also a noticeable improvement over the stock ps with the new valves exposing what the stock valves could not. There is also an increase in volume, perhaps 4-6 db


----------



## NiTROAUDiO

Hey so i foubd a pair of Western Electric Tubes for my p20. But one says Western Electric 2C51 and the other is Western Electric 396a. Both are compatible with the p20 and are sold together I can buy them right now for $50. Will these both work without problems ?


----------



## PaganDL

@NiTROAUDiO,

I suggest looking just searching tybe equivalents in either google search or duckduckgo just to make sure they are correct but from memory, this doesn't seem so but don't quote me.

I would also recommend the following resources :
*
radiomuseum.org
tubes-store.com
thetubestore.com
*
Hope you have a great day !


----------



## Jorgitok

Arum16 said:


> I've got my 6N3P-DR from this site here. It's based in the Netherlands.
> 
> Direct url for the 6N3P-DR (scroll down. they're at the bottom)
> https://www.tubesandrecords.com/pre-amplifier-tubes/ecc83-12ax7-5751-7025/
> ...


What version of the different options should I buy? I do not kniw anything about tube but need to get the best. There is an option with triodes? Thanks for any help


----------



## Arum16 (Dec 16, 2019)

Jorgitok said:


> What version of the different options should I buy? I do not kniw anything about tube but need to get the best. There is an option with triodes? Thanks for any help



This is the page for the Reflector 6N3P-DR, at the bottom.
Sellect "Matched 1% + balanced triodes"
Total (matched pair)= 40Eur

https://www.tubesandrecords.com/pre-amplifier-tubes/ecc83-12ax7-5751-7025/

The web shop owner is very helpful. Drop him an email in case of doubt.

PS: You are aware this ships from the Netherlands?


----------



## Jorgitok

Arum16 said:


> This is the page for the Reflector 6N3P-DR, at the bottom.
> Sellect "Matched 1% + balanced triodes"
> Total (matched pair)= 40Eur
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your help. Ordered


----------



## PaganDL

Jorgitok said:


> What version of the different options should I buy? I do not kniw anything about tube but need to get the best. There is an option with triodes? Thanks for any help




Hi @Jorgitok,

If you want to learn more about tubes, I suggest the following resources  :
*
radiomuseum.org
tubes-store.com
thetubestore.com
*
Enjoy those tubes !

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## Jorgitok

PaganDL said:


> @NiTROAUDiO,
> 
> I suggest looking just searching tybe equivalents in either google search or duckduckgo just to make sure they are correct but from memory, this doesn't seem so but don't quote me.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for help and info


----------



## PaganDL

Jorgitok said:


> Thanks so much for help and info




No problem @Jorgitok.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## Mark James Richardson

My 5ft Periapt HD6XX XLR balanced cable arrived and I'm thinking how could I have spent $140 AUS on a HP cable but I'm glad I did. Might nearly be as noticeable an improvement as stock valves to Reflector 6N3P-DR. The P20 keeps on giving and I'm a very happy owner having spent all day listening to music. Merry Christmas everyone


----------



## ephrank

I've been listening to my P20 with an upgraded linear PSU:

WEILIANG AUDIO 25W linear regulated power supply double output https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000004386010.html

There's a marked improvement driving low-ish impedance headphones (Z7M2, 56 ohms): The bass and sub-bass sounded more focused and tighter. Overall sound is less veiled, better instrument separation. On higher impedance headphones (HD 600, 300 ohms) it's harder to notice the improvement.

Very happy with the PSU upgrade! 

p.s. Be sure to order the correct DC plug. The P20 accepts 5.5mm x 2.5mm DC plugs.


----------



## jgriffter

I bought the P20 a few weeks ago and have been very impressed.  I wanted to try a full balanced set up so I built some dual 3.5mm TRS to XLR cables to interface my Pono Player in balanced mode to the P20, using LCD-2 and EL-8 closed back balanced headphones.  I changed out tubes to GE5670's I had on hand.  Sound is surprisingly good - I am really enjoying the sound profile.  Clear and full sound that to me has just a touch of tube flavor in a good way.  From reading the comments here I have ordered a matched pair of the Russian 6N3P-DR tubes and a better 12v 5a power supply.  Looking forward to tweaking this little gem further.  It really is a blast for the money.


----------



## ephrank

jgriffter said:


> It really is a blast for the money.



Indeed!


----------



## Mark James Richardson

But is it? First HP amp I've ever used.  Adding Meanwell 6amp ps and 6N4P-DR valves and the price of it has nearly doubled.  Sure, with the HD 6XX, Periapt cable combo it does sound beautiful. 
My question is: Assuming high end conversion and balanced XLR going in, what sort of $US needs to be spent to trump it? Confidently trump it. I would love to know. Novice speaking here but I think I would need to start saving.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Jan 5, 2020)

I've got an older 12VDC @ 3A linear power supply, that has dual banana jack outputs.

To upgrade the power for my P20, I'm thinking of ordering either one of these high quality $15 connectors, to use for assembling my own power cable -
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Oyaide-DC-...plug-made-in-Japan-FREE-SHIPPING/174050535100





.
.
- or one of these already assembled $45 2-meter cables -
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC27-Oyaid...Canare-4S6-DC-Interconnect-Cable/323285679934


----------



## PaganDL

Mark James Richardson said:


> But is it? First HP amp I've ever used.  Adding Meanwell 6amp ps and 6N4P-DR valves and the price of it has nearly doubled.  Sure, with the HD 6XX, Periapt cable combo it does sound beautiful.
> My question is: Assuming high end conversion and balanced XLR going in, what sort of $US needs to be spent to trump it? Confidently trump it. I would love to know. Novice speaking here but I think I would need to start saving.




Honestly @Mark James Richardson,

Considering how pear shaped the Oz dollar is going, I suggest sticking with the P20 for some time & just enjoy the thing.
Others will certainly disagree but you will be hard pressed to get much better tube amp wise & since you're in the big brown land, this doesn't help...at least without a good demo.
Subjectively & personally, what will influence better sonic performance overall will be potentially a better DAC or source device.
As a final point, tube amps which support bigger tube variants will also impact sound though whether it is better or beat P20 will depend on you.
For example, one I'm considering when I have more spare in the budget is the Prima Luna Evo 100, non DAC version though this is more for the collection, so to speak, than beat any other gear I have.

Hope this is useful.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Hey some great opinions there but I need one to answer my question... how much? I should add valve or otherwise. Cheers


----------



## ephrank

AAA 789 is a very popular balanced amp - I'd love to know it compare with P20 - Is it four times better? ($400 vs $100)


----------



## PaganDL

ephrank said:


> AAA 789 is a very popular balanced amp - I'd love to know it compare with P20 - Is it four times better? ($400 vs $100)




@ephrank,

Subjectively & personally, it will depend on you, Oz dollar aside, tube VS solid aside, what kind of sound you looking for.
Personally, I like both but I lean towards the P20 as I like tubes & tube sound so for me, it's a no.
Honestly, if you're after trying a good highly affordable solid state amp, I suggest looking into the SMSL SP 200, which uses the THX 888 chip as opposed to the 789 chip in the Drop version.
Lowest noise floor in the THX lineup along with better Staging, Imaging, Clarity & also adds a nice warmth to sound overall.

Hope this makes sense & answers some questions.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## ephrank

PaganDL said:


> Hope this makes sense & answers some questions.



Thanks, your post makes a lot of sense. I'd love to read about the sonic differences between the P20 and (any one of the) THX amps, then I can decide whether to splash the cash or not. So far, I haven't come across such a forum post.

SMSL SP200 looks like the best bang for bucks SS amp at the moment (Price performance ratio is way above Drop 789). It's on my shopping list.


----------



## PaganDL

ephrank said:


> Thanks, your post makes a lot of sense. I'd love to read about the sonic differences between the P20 and (any one of the) THX amps, then I can decide whether to splash the cash or not. So far, I haven't come across such a forum post.
> 
> SMSL SP200 looks like the best bang for bucks SS amp at the moment (Price performance ratio is way above Drop 789). It's on my shopping list.




No problem, @ephrank,

Glad to help, for value for money, hard to beat either P20 or SP 200 so you really can't go wrong with either.
They both have among the lowest noise floors in their respective classes, solid & tube I have heard so far.
But as said, it comes down to what you're after in sonics overall.
Since you're in Oz, you might want to look into the March Audio HPA-1, it's not officially listed on the site but it is available for sale.
Subjectively & personally, probably among the best, affordable solid state head amps I've come across which outperforms many other head amps, especially the pricey ones.

As to ongoing discussions about sonic differences, I suggest looking at the dedicated threads on SP 200 & 789, as usual for headfi, the amount of bickering & arguing going on is both sadly ridiculous & normal...for headfi.

Feel free to ask more if you need.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## jgriffter

I have seen several folks comment on the positive impact of the upgraded power supply. I a have ordered two different ones and neither has a power jack that fits the P20. 

could anyone suggest a specific inexpensive 12v 5 amp power supply that would work?  Thank you!


----------



## DBaldock9

PaganDL said:


> @ephrank,
> 
> Subjectively & personally, it will depend on you, Oz dollar aside, tube VS solid aside, what kind of sound you looking for.
> Personally, I like both but I lean towards the P20 as I like tubes & tube sound so for me, it's a no.
> ...



From reading the specifications, I'm wondering whether the SP200 is actually a balanced amp - since they don't list separate, higher Balanced power output.


----------



## PaganDL

DBaldock9 said:


> From reading the specifications, I'm wondering whether the SP200 is actually a balanced amp - since they don't list separate, higher Balanced power output.




@DBaldock9,

Hard to say without opening the unit up which I have no desire to though you're welcome to get one to explore yourself.
As stated, definitely a worthy amp in its own right regardless.
As a general rule according to my experience, higher power output isn't an indication of Balanced circuitry & considering 3.5 mm plugs work on both outputs, I presume both sides are balanced.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## magicscreen

jgriffter said:


> I have seen several folks comment on the positive impact of the upgraded power supply. I a have ordered two different ones and neither has a power jack that fits the P20.
> 
> could anyone suggest a specific inexpensive 12v 5 amp power supply that would work?  Thank you!


Maybe you need something similar? https://www.delock.de/produkte/G_65536/merkmale.html?setLanguage=en


----------



## ephrank

@PaganDL @DBaldock9 SP200 is not true balanced, but dual-mono single ended as having isolated L/R amp sections.

p.s. HPA-1 is quite expensive and I'm not convinced about the lack of volume pot - Clicks and pops from the source would be amplified at full volume!

@jgriffter Make sure the DC connector is 5.5mm - 2.5mm (outer diameter - inner diameter).


----------



## PaganDL

ephrank said:


> @PaganDL @DBaldock9 SP200 is not true balanced, but dual-mono single ended as having isolated L/R amp sections.
> 
> p.s. HPA-1 is quite expensive and I'm not convinced about the lack of volume pot - Clicks and pops from the source would be amplified at full volume!
> 
> ...


----------



## DBaldock9

ephrank said:


> @PaganDL @DBaldock9 SP200 is not true balanced, but dual-mono single ended as having isolated L/R amp sections.
> 
> p.s. HPA-1 is quite expensive and I'm not convinced about the lack of volume pot - Clicks and pops from the source would be amplified at full volume!
> 
> @jgriffter Make sure the DC connector is 5.5mm - 2.5mm (outer diameter - inner diameter).



The sure sign that an Amp is "fully" Balanced, from the XLR Inputs, to the XLR Output - is seeing a 4-gang Volume control, with one section for each of the "channels" (L+, L-, R+, R-).


----------



## PaganDL

DBaldock9 said:


> The sure sign that an Amp is "fully" Balanced, from the XLR Inputs, to the XLR Output - is seeing a 4-gang Volume control, with one section for each of the "channels" (L+, L-, R+, R-).




@DBaldock9,

Certainly the most obvious way though as said, not about to open my unit up...
Be interested to know what you find if you ever get the SP200.

Also there are few balanced head amps which don't have pentiometers or volume pots so the wiring for that may be different but once again, haven't opened many to actually have a good look either way.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Dude I'm not sure why you keep telling Dave to buy a SP200 "cause that hot rodded P20 of his would smoke it for sure...  and I'm as jealous as  #*@%


----------



## PaganDL

Mark James Richardson said:


> Dude I'm not sure why you keep telling Dave to buy a SP200 "cause that hot rodded P20 of his would smoke it for sure...  and I'm as jealous as  #*@%




If you're asking me this question, @Mark James Richardson...
I suggest you don't take things out of context...
I never asked him to do or buy anything, if you actually read the posts, there is actually a basic technical discussion ongoing...
Anyway, if you are really jealous, why don't you mod your own gear.
Personally & subjectively, I feel there is no need to mod or look into anything as it all works for me very well...
Since I'm more than happy with what I have, not to mention I don't have the space or easy access to some parts which were mentioned nor does it really bother me overall whether I need to take something apart just for the sake.
After all, modding is a part of this hobby which is interesting but can get overboard very quickly.

I respect a lot of people on headfi for various reasons, you're not helping with your post.

Hope everyone has a great day !


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Yes there is a technical discussion going on here and the importance of being fully balanced does not seem to be understood. The P20 is fully balanced and is the reason many of us are here. I love the fact I can run a cpl mic leads from my DAC and shift the P20 to where I want it. To over the other side of the room, into another room, out in the shed or onto the property next door if I wanted to. Ten, twenty or more than fifty metres from the DAC.  Try that running unbalanced!  Be lucky to get 2 metres before noise levels were unbearable. 
Fully balanced has noticeably more gain and I shall leave the difference in sound quality as a given. 
I LOVE the sound of this baby and I will hotrod the opamps. 
However there is no hurry and I already spend way too much time with my P20 so it may be a project for this year or maybe next. Not sure. It will happen though and I will say that I will not upgrade from the hot rodded P20 until I have listened to better.  Something that will trump it. In another post no one could suggest a contender. A Violectric V281 perhaps?  Or perhaps the V281 will not trump it .... but that seems to be a good measuring stick.


----------



## DBaldock9

PaganDL said:


> @DBaldock9,
> 
> Certainly the most obvious way though as said, not about to open my unit up...
> Be interested to know what you find if you ever get the SP200.
> ...



As of now, my other fully Balanced headphone amp, is an iBasso PB2 (modified by replacing the 6-Pin Hirose Balanced Output jack with a 2.5mm TRRS jack (that fits into the same hole in the case)).
I still need to assemble the Balanced Input cable for the PB2, so currently, I'm using the Single-Ended 3.5mm TRS Input.
The PB2 uses the same type of 6-pin Hirose jack for the Balanced Input, that it used for the output - and my Topping D70 only has one set of Balanced XLR Outputs, so I'll need to see if it can drive both the P20 and the PB2 in parallel.

To save space (and cost) on the Y junction box, I'll probably use 5-Pin mini-XLR connectors - so I'll need to assemble this set of cables:
1.) Dual XLR-F to Single mini-XLR-M  [from Topping D70 to junction box]
2.) Single mini-XLR-F to Dual XLR-M [from junction box to Loxjie P20]
3.) Single mini-XLR-F to Single 6-Pin Hirose Plug [junction box to iBasso PB2]


----------



## PaganDL

DBaldock9 said:


> As of now, my other fully Balanced headphone amp, is an iBasso PB2 (modified by replacing the 6-Pin Hirose Balanced Output jack with a 2.5mm TRRS jack (that fits into the same hole in the case)).
> I still need to assemble the Balanced Input cable for the PB2, so currently, I'm using the Single-Ended 3.5mm TRS Input.
> The PB2 uses the same type of 6-pin Hirose jack for the Balanced Input, that it used for the output - and my Topping D70 only has one set of Balanced XLR Outputs, so I'll need to see if it can drive both the P20 and the PB2 in parallel.
> 
> ...




@DBaldock9,

Appreciate the info.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## ephrank

PaganDL said:


> Also, if you have clicks & pops, something is wrong with your setup but that's just my observation



I had a Chord Mojo and it often output *loud* pops when switching sampling rates - That's the kind of clicks and pops I'm most concerned about


----------



## Jorgitok

Jorgitok said:


> Thanks so much for your help. Ordered





Arum16 said:


> This is the page for the Reflector 6N3P-DR, at the bottom.
> Sellect "Matched 1% + balanced triodes"
> Total (matched pair)= 40Eur
> 
> ...


I ordered them from tubes and records. Tubes were never delivered card charged, lots of emails exchanged but no tubes. Very disapointed with store, never dealing with them


----------



## Arum16

Jorgitok said:


> I ordered them from tubes and records. Tubes were never delivered card charged, lots of emails exchanged but no tubes. Very disapointed with store, never dealing with them



That's odd. Bought a pair of those through that webpage, no problem.
All communication went just fine via tubesandrecords@ziggo.nl

Have you tried emailing him?


----------



## Jorgitok

Arum16 said:


> That's odd. Bought a pair of those through that webpage, no problem.
> All communication went just fine via tubesandrecords@ziggo.nl
> 
> Have you tried emailing him?


Thanks for your adittional help. I've been exchanging emails with some maybe employee. Now I forwarded all my exchange to the email you provided.
They blamed US Postal Service, promised to send another pair but never was send and never replied to my ladt email
Thanks again


----------



## PaganDL

ephrank said:


> I had a Chord Mojo and it often output *loud* pops when switching sampling rates - That's the kind of clicks and pops I'm most concerned about




@ephrank,

As far as I'm aware, those are just the internal relays & switches doing their jobs when sample rates are swtiched though if you're concerned, just bring your unit back to your dealer just to make sure.
Another thing which may help but is unlikely due to what I just said above, is unless your music library has varied sampling rates, put the volume to zero before selecting said tracks with different sample rates.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## Krizl (Jan 9, 2020)

I received my 12v 5a powersupply today and had to switch back to the original one because i hear loud crackling distorted sounds at -28 volume. I guess it only does the job if u listen with balanced headphones at low volumes.
With the original 1.67a psu i can listen at -16 without hearing crackling sounds.


----------



## Jorgitok

Arum16 said:


> That's odd. Bought a pair of those through that webpage, no problem.
> All communication went just fine via tubesandrecords@ziggo.nl
> 
> Have you tried emailing him?


Emailed him and no response at all. Never "Tubes and records" ever. Thanks for your help.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

The Russian site, tubes-store.com are professional  and comprehensive. Can highly recommend them. The reflector 6N3P-DR valves are superb in the P20 and as stated elsewhere shine above all other options. Oh and at $6.00 each a dead set bargain


----------



## Arum16

Jorgitok said:


> Emailed him and no response at all. Never "Tubes and records" ever. Thanks for your help.


I'm sorry you had all those problems. It seems a legit webshop, and my previous buying experience went quite uneventful.


----------



## Gyroscopics

jgriffter said:


> I have seen several folks comment on the positive impact of the upgraded power supply. I a have ordered two different ones and neither has a power jack that fits the P20.
> 
> could anyone suggest a specific inexpensive 12v 5 amp power supply that would work?  Thank you!




I've been using this regulated switching PSU for the past 8 months on my P20 with no issues. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004P9UP6Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The P20 handles all my HPs well except for these two: 1) 32ohm planar magnetic M1060 via SE out and 2) Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohm via SE out (although the P20 drives my DT770 80 ohm surprisingly well and with the most noticeable tube warmth).


----------



## Jorgitok

PaganDL said:


> Hi @Jorgitok,
> 
> If you want to learn more about tubes, I suggest the following resources  :
> *
> ...


Thanks so much


----------



## PaganDL

Jorgitok said:


> Thanks so much




No problem, @Jorgitok,

Feel free to ask more when you need.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## brendale

Mark James Richardson said:


> The Russian site, tubes-store.com are professional  and comprehensive. Can highly recommend them. The reflector 6N3P-DR valves are superb in the P20 and as stated elsewhere shine above all other options. Oh and at $6.00 each a dead set bargain



Were the valves paired/matching dates? Always stopped myself from ordering there because it doesn't state one way or the other what happens if you order 2+. Thanks.


----------



## PaganDL

brendale said:


> Were the valves paired/matching dates? Always stopped myself from ordering there because it doesn't state one way or the other what happens if you order 2+. Thanks.




@brendale,

Just my 2 cents...

Subjectively & personally, when querying about pairing & matching, especially for the smaller tubes complements, with any tube supplier, not just tubes-store.com, I have been told & when researched with my own findings, more often than not, it's quite tricky to match &/or pair small tubes for various reasons...
Saying that, short of owning a tube tester & looking for variances, I suggest as long as said tubes come from the same batch or have same manufacturing year, even if batch is different, sonically, they are very hard to distinguish for obvious variance unless actually defective...

Hope this makes sense.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## brendale

PaganDL said:


> @brendale,
> 
> Just my 2 cents...



Thanks for the reply. My understanding is that year & month is stamped on each of these. For me, matching months would be enough (likely to be same manufacturing batch). I know more advanced "matching" is possible.

As there's nothing at all mentioned on this website, I can't buy with any confidence of what I'd get. And these have been made for decades. Compare with eBay, where they'll often state same date and/or have photos.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Ok, well I just swapped the valves left to right for you and can't hear the difference. I  am happy with that. My system as you can see is balanced from Metric Halo conversion, Periapt cable to HD650 and the weakest link is prob my hearing. Meanwell 6.6 amp ps kicks it in the guts and the sound is stellar. Did I mention the valves are 6 bucks each? Get half a doz and you pick the best pair (IF you can) and if like me you can't tell the diff, praise the Lord and turn it up!


----------



## DBaldock9

Mark James Richardson said:


> Ok, well I just swapped the valves left to right for you and can't hear the difference. I  am happy with that. My system as you can see is balanced from Metric Halo conversion, Periapt cable to HD650 and the weakest link is prob my hearing. Meanwell 6.6 amp ps kicks it in the guts and the sound is stellar. Did I mention the valves are 6 bucks each? Get half a doz and you pick the best pair (IF you can) and if like me you can't tell the diff, praise the Lord and turn it up!



You're using a $4,500 ULN-8 Digital Audio Processor, followed by a $100 headphone amplifier?


----------



## Mark James Richardson

I have it lying around, home recording studio.... and the P20 sounds great!  I prefer it to the ULN8's HP out.  Looking forward to listening to a Violectric 281.  If it does sound better than the P20(with opamp rolling capability, and perhaps another ps upgrade) but a subtle improvement, which the P20 is over the ULN8, I will stick to the P20.  Diminishing returns play a part here. A line has to be drawn somewhere. However if the Violectric 281 trumps it hands down I will prob start saving for one


----------



## DBaldock9

Mark James Richardson said:


> I have it lying around, home recording studio.... and the P20 sounds great!  I prefer it to the ULN8's HP out.  Looking forward to listening to a Violectric 281.  If it does sound better than the P20(with opamp rolling capability, and perhaps another ps upgrade) but a subtle improvement, which the P20 is over the ULN8, I will stick to the P20.  Diminishing returns play a part here. A line has to be drawn somewhere. However if the Violectric 281 trumps it hands down I will prob start saving for one



I guess you've come across this in-depth review of the HPA-V281 - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...surements-of-violectric-hpa-v281-hp-amp.9331/


----------



## Mark James Richardson

No I haven't but after reading it seems the search is not over. Albeit not a mention of the sound. I'm pretty keen to do what you have re opamp rolling but will get a tech to do the opamp sockets. I do wonder what the weakest link in the P20 will be? My sound recordist buddy has a tape Nagra from the 1980's, same model which was used as the source recently at a hifi show winning best sound. Take the back off it and it shines from all the gold used at connections. That's what the P20 is up against but from your amp rolling reports that at least seems to be an extra hundred odd dollars well spent.


----------



## magicscreen

Mark James Richardson said:


> I have it lying around, home recording studio.... and the P20 sounds great!  I prefer it to the ULN8's HP out.  Looking forward to listening to a Violectric 281.  If it does sound better than the P20(with opamp rolling capability, and perhaps another ps upgrade) but a subtle improvement, which the P20 is over the ULN8, I will stick to the P20.  Diminishing returns play a part here. A line has to be drawn somewhere. However if the Violectric 281 trumps it hands down I will prob start saving for one


This is a big quest for me as well. To find a better amplifier than the Loxjie P20 (+russian tubes+SMSP filter).
I have the Jds Labs Atom and the Loxjie P20 has a much better sound than the Atom, for me, totally subjective. 
So it won't be an easy task 
I would like a similar sound character but a solid-state amp.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Jan 15, 2020)

Have y'all considered the Matrix Audio HPA-3B (Class A, Fully Balanced) Amp?
Power specs - Balanced Output power (at THD+N 0.01%): 3800 mW at 33 ohms, 1500 mW at 300 ohms, 800 mW at 600 ohms
https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/313.html
https://www.audioemotion.co.uk/matr...ully-balanced-headphone-amplifier-14437-p.asp


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Impressive...and you can opamp roll!  What does it sound like I wonder?


----------



## PaganDL

DBaldock9 said:


> Have y'all considered the Matrix Audio HPA-3B (Class A, Fully Balanced) Amp?
> Power specs - Balanced Output power (at THD+N 0.01%): 3800 mW at 33 ohms, 1500 mW at 300 ohms, 800 mW at 600 ohms
> https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/313.html
> https://www.audioemotion.co.uk/matr...ully-balanced-headphone-amplifier-14437-p.asp




@DBaldock9,

Seen this unit a while back, good to be reminded of it & while tempting, as there is no local retailer for demo, makes it hard to justify on top of the exchange rate...

However, maybe one day though if you ever get one, be interested to hear your thoughts...

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## warbles (Jan 16, 2020)

Hello everyone.. Well I guess it was the poster who claimed he actually prefers his Loxje to his JDS Atom that finally pricked my ears right up, which has now formed a desire in me to own the P20 that has been long 'suppressed' by v disappointing experience with an ostensibly similar unit, the Sabaj PHA3 (w/ rolled Mullard tubes)


May I then ask if someone could link me to a place where the apparently necessary op-amp swap is best explained? I do not intend to try that myself (technical retard
) but will send the instructions to my German electronic engineer friend.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Jan 16, 2020)

warbles said:


> Hello everyone.. Well I guess it was the poster who claimed he actually prefers his Loxje to his JDS Atom that finally pricked my ears right up, which has now formed a desire in me to own the P20 that has been long 'suppressed' by v disappointing experience with an ostensibly similar unit, the Sabaj PHA3 (w/ rolled Mullard tubes)
> 
> 
> May I then ask if someone could link me to a place where the apparently necessary op-amp swap is best explained? I do not intend to try that myself (technical retard
> ) but will send the instructions to my German electronic engineer friend.



I may be the only one who has posted here, about unsoldering the 4x dual op-amps and installing sockets.  I also cut the case in-half, so the top can be lifted off, to make it easier to swap op-amps.

Currently, I've got a set of 4x OPA1622 op-amps (purchased from a Chinese eBay vendor) plugged in to the sockets - and I like how they sound.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

I don't recall anyone saying swapping the op-amps was necessary... valves certainly.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Dave would you mind elaborating on what the "flaking out" event was and what caused it? I must say that comment curbed my desire to put the sockets in..... not entirely but helped expose my limitations.


----------



## DBaldock9

It's probably cold solder, or a bad chip, on one of the OPA1622 adapter boards, since the issue follows the board, even when I tried using it in another amp.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

How did you find the culprit?


----------



## warbles

DBaldock9 said:


> I may be the only one who has posted here, about unsoldering the 4x dual op-amps and installing sockets.  I also cut the case in-half, so the top can be lifted off, to make it easier to swap op-amps.
> 
> Thank-you for this reply! Strange but I'd. somehow gotten the impression that the
> matter of op-amp rolling for this device was the 'biggest deal'.. Would it be possible to say in some way why the replacement is an improvement, or what motivated you to do it?
> ...


----------



## warbles

Whoa.. Don't know what happened there.. My reply is showing on my phone in Italics and in blue, and as coming from someone else?


----------



## Mark James Richardson (Jan 16, 2020)

warbles said:


> Whoa.. Don't know what happened there.. My reply is showing on my phone in Italics and in blue, and as coming from someone else?



Summed up well however I believe we are in uncharted waters here except for Dave... no word from anyone else op-amp rolling. Man you can spend crazy money on them, holy cow $100 plus US!   At $6-$7 US the OPA 1622 is as good a place to start as anywhere, esp with Dave's recommendation, he's been on point thus far!   Ha, I feel like ringing the tech as well Warbles so thanks for that


----------



## DBaldock9

Mark James Richardson said:


> How did you find the culprit?



The noise was originally in the left channel.
So I swapped the first op-amp with the third op-amp.
The noise remained in the left channel.
Then, I swapped the second & fourth op-amps.
The noise moved to the right channel.
I had another OPA1622, and plugged it into the fourth socket.
Both channels were then working OK.

Took the suspected bad op-amp and plugged it into my Walnut F1 amp.
Its output was noisy.
Set aside the bad op-amp.


----------



## DBaldock9

warbles said:


> Thank-you for this reply! Strange but I'd somehow gotten the impression that the matter of op-amp rolling for this device was the 'biggest deal'.
> Would it be possible to say in some way why the replacement is an improvement, or what motivated you to do it?
> 
> Also, if anyone can now sum up for me the essential mods and/or additions one requires for optimum performance of the unit? So far I think I get that it means acquiring balanced 4.4 XLR cables, and some (even more) spiffing 'Soviet' tubes?



I like sound of the OPA1622, in the other amps & DAPs I've used it in.
I also like its high output current - greater than 120mA - which seems to provide more authoritative Bass response.

If I had three more of the Sparkos SS3602 Dual Discrete Op-Amps ($83 each), I'd put 4 in the P20, and still have two to use in my other amps.


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Going on the markup of gear I would expect a sparkos op-amped P20 to compete with pretty much anything...


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Dave can you try the Sparkos on one side of the P20, OPA 1622 on the other I wonder?


----------



## DBaldock9

Mark James Richardson said:


> Dave can you try the Sparkos on one side of the P20, OPA 1622 on the other I wonder?



The sockets are a little too close together to plug the SS3602 op-amps directly in, side-by-side - but using one or two empty sockets to raise every other op-amp, allows them to overlap, without touching.
.
So, I placed two SS3602 on one channel, and left two OPA1622 on the other channel. Unfortunately, the SS3602 aren't stable, connected in the circuit this way - and are oscillating, making noise, and getting hot. Adding some additional bypass capacitors around the back of the sockets may fix the issue, but that does require taking the circuit board completely out of the case.  Another future project.


----------



## Plethora

Hi all

After reading quite a bit through the thread a new power supply is recommended 

Can anyone link one that would suffice on Amazon UK as I'm not too sure how all that technical stuff works and I don't want to blow up my amp and headphones hehe

Thanks, and sorry for my dumb query


----------



## Mark James Richardson

Massive fan of your work Dave, lucky to have you here.  Sounds like I might need more than 4 sockets when I order them. I will make a note of that.  Thanks


----------



## Mellowship

Plethora said:


> Hi all
> 
> After reading quite a bit through the thread a new power supply is recommended
> 
> ...


It's not dumb. I also would like to know if a switching 12v 4amp would be appropriate, as I have one around somewhere.


----------



## DBaldock9

The good quality power cable, that I ordered from an eBay vendor, arrived in the mail yesterday.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC27-Oyaid...Canare-4S6-DC-Interconnect-Cable/323285679934

So, I was able to connect my old 12V / 3A Linear Power Supply (Radio Shack P/N: 22-504) to my P20 last night.
Since I was just watching some TV, while working on creating a multi-OS bootable USB flash drive, I didn't do any super-critical listening - but there wasn't any hum or other noise that I could hear.

The supply that I'm using is still available from some eBay shops, but I think a better deal is probably this current model from Pyramid.
The 12V / 5A Pyramid (P/N: PS9KX) is available from Amazon, for $31.
https://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-PS9KX-Universal-Regulated-Converter/dp/B0002BA570/


----------



## Onik

my P20 causing Hum/Buzzing with High Quality Balanced cable when my volume is around -18.. and constant Buzzing when my Source A&K Kann connected to my Laptop using usb but no hum when my Laptop running on Battery.. guess now I know why it's so CHEAP Anyone facing this issue and found a solution to eliminate the hum/buzz/ground loop sh$t??


----------



## Mellowship

Onik said:


> my P20 causing Hum/Buzzing with High Quality Balanced cable when my volume is around -18.. and constant Buzzing when my Source A&K Kann connected to my Laptop using usb but no hum when my Laptop running on Battery.. guess now I know why it's so CHEAP Anyone facing this issue and found a solution to eliminate the hum/buzz/ground loop sh$t??


Very typical problem with an easy diagnostic due to your thorough description.  Don't worry, it's not the p20 or the usb cable. The humming comes from your underpowered laptop's power brick. Try a different one with more power.


----------



## Onik (Jan 24, 2020)

Mellowship said:


> Very typical problem with an easy diagnostic due to your thorough description.  Don't worry, it's not the p20 or the usb cable. The humming comes from your underpowered laptop's power brick. Try a different one with more power.



Maybe not because I also tried on my Gaming Desktop System the hum is probably a ground loop issue I also think the P20's PSU is a cheap trash with only 1.67A  which is not good enough for my 5670 GE so I bought this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0086D9J00/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 it might fix the issue if not I'll return this toy back to amazon. Btw I see no big deal with XLR in/out when it can't reduce the noise. P20 is my first full balanced amp and now I've learned a lesson.


----------



## Mellowship

Onik said:


> Maybe not because I also tried on my Gaming Desktop System the hum is probably a ground loop issue I also think the P20's PSU is a cheap trash with only 1.67A  which is not good enough for my 5670 GE so I bought this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0086D9J00/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 it might fix the issue if not I'll return this toy back to amazon. Btw I see no big deal with XLR in/out when it can't reduce the noise. P20 is my first full balanced amp and now I've learned a lesson.


Good luck with that. 

You described a problem and you insisted on blaming another thing. 

If you are so sure on how to fix things, why do you come here making questions and wasting our time?


----------



## Onik (Jan 24, 2020)

Mellowship said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> You described a problem and you insisted on blaming another thing.
> 
> If you are so sure on how to fix things, why do you come here making questions and wasting our time?



I asked here to find out if anyone having the same issue or not! and I never said I'm so sure what I said was the cheap "PSU" might causing the issue. you tried to help and I didn't say that you are wrong to your face I just said what I am experiencing with p20 atm. I am here to share my opinion not to get into an useless argument LOL


----------



## Mellowship

Onik said:


> I asked here to find out if anyone having the same issue or not! and I never said I'm so sure what I said was the cheap "PSU" might causing the issue. you tried to help and I didn't say that you are wrong to your face I just said what I am experiencing with p20 atm. I am here to share my opinion not to get into an useless argument LOL


I am very sorry, I'm not usually this grumpy.

But you do understand that you are blaming the p20 for doing what it is supposed to do, do you?

Balanced connections do not miraculously cancel noises when those noises are a part of the signal. They only cancel the noise that is fed along the cable between the source and the p20. 

You have a typical problem of a noisy USB system in your personal computers. The power sources are feeding noise through the usb ports, and the USB DAC is unable to decouple the USB power contacts from the data contacts. In consequence the DAC is feeding that noise, whether though ground or, worse, through analogue signal to the p20, which is naturally amplifying it. 

Is your DAC self powered or powered by USB? 

Maybe a powered USB hub can do the trick. It works for certain cases. 

If not, you just have to make a decoupled USB cable.

Or try different power sources on your computers. 

Just to be sure the p20 is not the problem, test it connected to another source such as a smartphone or a DAP, using the single ended inputs. Also, test it using single ended from your DAC and the P20. 

But your first experiences already made the case. The diagnostic is noise being fed to the USB ports via bad transformers. 

Been there. It's annoying. Just don't blame the p20, poor thing...


----------



## ephrank

Onik said:


> my P20 causing Hum/Buzzing with High Quality Balanced cable when my volume is around -18.. and constant Buzzing when my Source A&K Kann connected to my Laptop using usb but no hum when my Laptop running on Battery.. guess now I know why it's so CHEAP Anyone facing this issue and found a solution to eliminate the hum/buzz/ground loop sh$t??



Are you using 2.5mm to dual XLR cables to connect the KANN and P20? There should be no ground loop if connected this way.

Are laptop and P20 powered through the same wall socket?


----------



## Onik

ephrank said:


> Are you using 2.5mm to dual XLR cables to connect the KANN and P20? There should be no ground loop if connected this way.
> 
> Are laptop and P20 powered through the same wall socket?



  

Yes I'm using 2.5 to dual XLR AND USING BEYERDYNAMIC T1 WITH BALANCED CABLE. 

I feel the buzzing when the volume is around -18 to -00.

I'll try different room and send you update.


----------



## Onik

Mellowship said:


> I am very sorry, I'm not usually this grumpy.
> 
> But you do understand that you are blaming the p20 for doing what it is supposed to do, do you?
> 
> ...



I have no dedicated balanced DAC other than A&K Kann.
The buzzing is there with or without usb cable but with usb cable to a powered Laptop/PC very noticeable and it's always there. 

I received my new PSU with extra 3A and the Buzzing is less noticeable than before when volume is around -18 to -00.

In my room many stuff plugged in so I will try a different room and and see if I hear the buzz.(hopefully I'll not)


----------



## ephrank

Onik said:


> I received my new PSU with extra 3A and the Buzzing is less noticeable than before when volume is around -18 to -00.



Could be the output level from your KANN is set too low.

In my use case of SU-8 DAC - XLR - P20, I'd be deaf if volume is over -35! Using HD600 as a reference.

Is there a line-out mode you can set on the KANN?


----------



## Onik

ephrank said:


> Could be the output level from your KANN is set too low.
> 
> In my use case of SU-8 DAC - XLR - P20, I'd be deaf if volume is over -35! Using HD600 as a reference.
> 
> Is there a line-out mode you can set on the KANN?



I'm using the line out 2V from Kann and that's the max voltage I can get from it. For me -28 to -26 is loud enough, I was trying the max volume with no music playing and just curious to know why I get the ground loop/buzzing noise, obviously the Buzzing will be masked/ignored when music playing but still I don't like it because I'm using quality cables.


----------



## ephrank

Onik said:


> I was trying the max volume with no music playing and just curious to know why I get the ground loop/buzzing noise,



I see. I haven't done this test before. Worth a try. I'm pretty sure it's dead silent at normal volume levels.


----------



## igorpadrao

Received my P20 yesterday, I am liking it very much. But it sounds like a solid state. Any tube suggestions for a more relaxing warm sound?

I saw that some people changed the power supply. A cheap one like this, but with more power than the original one, would do the job?


----------



## PaganDL

igorpadrao said:


> Received my P20 yesterday, I am liking it very much. But it sounds like a solid state. Any tube suggestions for a more relaxing warm sound?
> 
> I saw that some people changed the power supply. A cheap one like this, but with more power than the original one, would do the job?




@igorpadrao,

Honestly, just leave stock tubes in for now & just enjoy the thing since you like it already, give it at least a week to see if things change sonically for you...
Subjectively & personally, tubes take at least a couple of hours to truly warm up & run in during use, especially from off, though this doesn't mean you should leave the P20 on 24/7 as aside from possible power bill concerns, there is also safety factor as tubes, especially small tubes, put out a lot of heat...
So usually most tubes, especially small tubes, take at least 20 hours to reach good running efficiency, this is technically not burn in but run in which is slightly different...
By the way, your observation is correct, P 20 is among the few tube amps which sound almost the same to solid state which isn't a bad thing, it is just a characteristic of that type of tube so any variants will sound similar in any case.
Though if you're interested at a later date, I suggest looking into any 6n3 ending with N or R designations as this denotes military spec, as such, longer life & subjectively better performance.

As a final note, personally, I suggest not changing the power supply as honestly, it won't make much difference to efficency or sonics & may actually increase the noise floor on a tube amp which has among the lowest noise floors I have heard...
Also  keep in mind, A or amperage can be altered, not the Volts, so if you do want to experiement, just make sure the Volts figure doesn't change as at the very least, you're going to cause a short, at worst, fry the unit, blow tubes & cause a small fire.

Hope this is useful.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## warbles

Hiya... I would like to ask (again, I think!) of anyone here has owned the little Sabaj PHA3 tube amp and if so tell me how much better or more distinctive is the Loxje's performance from that one? The Sabaj sound is nothing special at all and I have found it STR (superfluous to requirements). Due to all the discussion right here, however,. I've found myself putting the Loxje in my Ali cart...


----------



## PaganDL

warbles said:


> Hiya... I would like to ask (again, I think!) of anyone here has owned the little Sabaj PHA3 tube amp and if so tell me how much better or more distinctive is the Loxje's performance from that one? The Sabaj sound is nothing special at all and I have found it STR (superfluous to requirements). Due to all the discussion right here, however,. I've found myself putting the Loxje in my Ali cart...




@warbles,

Just my 2 cents,

Can't comment on the Sabaj PHA3 as never tried it nor interested for various reasons but I doubt you be disappointed with the P20. Subjectively & personally, I find P20 among the best _affordable_ tube amps I have come across & over the years, I have demo a lot of head amps, definitely more than I actually own listed on my profile.

Very hard to go wrong for the price, not to mention customer service is responsive if you purchase direct from Loxjie Aliexpress store.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## warbles

PaganDL said:


> @warbles,
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> 
> ...


Hey thankyou muchly for the encouragement, if not the sought comparison! That candy-apple red device is fair glowing with more awful promise all the while! Aiiiyeee!


----------



## magicscreen

igorpadrao said:


> Received my P20 yesterday, I am liking it very much. But it sounds like a solid state. Any tube suggestions for a more relaxing warm sound?
> 
> I saw that some people changed the power supply. A cheap one like this, but with more power than the original one, would do the job?


I do not think that switching mode power supply is better.


----------



## warbles

PaganDL said:


> @warbles,
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> 
> ...


Was also thinking though, that with these shock horror revelations that Loxje is really approaching the solid state sound all the while, the fellow who said it bests even his JDS Atom could mebbe weigh in again at this point, should he so wish?

Just askin', y' all !


----------



## magicscreen (Jan 29, 2020)

warbles said:


> Was also thinking though, that with these shock horror revelations that Loxje is really approaching the solid state sound all the while, the fellow who said it bests even his JDS Atom could mebbe weigh in again at this point, should he so wish?
> 
> Just askin', y' all !


The Atom is more detailed, more clear, mainly the treble.  
The P20 has a warmer, more musical sound with the 6N3P-EV russian tubes. And I have a special power supply filter unit.
It depends which headphones you are using. With 47 ohm output impedance it is recommended for only high impedance phones like HD650.
May be depends on which music type you are listening. I have the also warm HD6XX and the bass can be too much at bass-heavy music. P20 is more recommended for neutral or bright headphones in general opinion.  But I like it this way, it is subjective.
I cannot say it is tubey or solid-state sound because I know only this 2 amp so cannot compare.
Not every tube amp has tubey sound anyway. For example Valhalla 2 all-tubes, OTL (not hybrid like P20) tube amp has no tube sound at all.


----------



## igorpadrao

PaganDL said:


> @igorpadrao,
> 
> Honestly, just leave stock tubes in for now & just enjoy the thing since you like it already, give it at least a week to see if things change sonically for you...
> Subjectively & personally, tubes take at least a couple of hours to truly warm up & run in during use, especially from off, though this doesn't mean you should leave the P20 on 24/7 as aside from possible power bill concerns, there is also safety factor as tubes, especially small tubes, put out a lot of heat...
> ...



Thanks PaganDL for the nice words.

I know that a some tube amps sound clean like solid states, but I was hoping for a little variety. My ears are very sensitive to high notes and constantly these fequencies tires my ears. I was hoping that some tubey sound could help me in this regard. Maybe I will need to spend a little more than $80 to discover that. But even with the Solid Statish sound, I am really liking this dandy little amp.



magicscreen said:


> The P20 has a warmer, more musical sound with the 6N3P-EV russian tubes. And I have a special power supply filter unit.
> It depends which headphones you are using. With 47 ohm output impedance it is recommended for only high impedance phones like HD650.
> May be depends on which music type you are listening. I have the also warm HD6XX and the bass can be too much at bass-heavy music. P20 is more recommended for neutral or bright headphones in general opinion. But I like it this way, it is subjective.
> I cannot say it is tubey or solid-state sound because I know only this 2 amp so cannot compare.
> Not every tube amp has tubey sound anyway. For example Valhalla 2 all-tubes, OTL (not hybrid like P20) tube amp has no tube sound at all.



Thanks magicscreen for the recomendation. Any suggestion to where to buy these tubes?

I believe that the very clean sound of the P20 could be parttially because of my headphones that are a little too much eficient (Koss KSC-75, Takstar Pro 82, AKG M220 & Pioneer SE-A1000). Maybe if I put something more like the HD650 or HD6XX I could hear more tubiness.

Thanks guys for the tips and information. I will go back and enjoy a little more this beauty.


----------



## igorpadrao

I forgot to say that I am running it Single Ended for the moment (the output, I mean. Input side, it has been fed balanced by the SMSL M300), but in the near future I will put some balanced headphones in it to see how it goes.


----------



## ephrank

Onik said:


> I was trying the max volume with no music playing and just curious to know why I get the ground loop/buzzing noise,



I've just done this test - No noticible noise at volume -00. Test done at an office environment with people chatting in background, so there could be some very faint noise being masked


----------



## Ctritical Bill

I have had my P20 for a few weeks now and am currently trying out these russian sub-miniature tubes. These are 6N18B which have broadly similar characteristics to the 6N3P. These are almost identical to the more widely available 6N16B. So far I am liking the sound of them, bass is all there and very sweet highs. 
I have also put in sockets for the op amps and I am using OPA2107 at the moment. I bought some OPA1622 to try but one failed immediately ( these don't appear to be be very reliable ) so I will have to get some more.


----------



## PaganDL

igorpadrao said:


> Thanks PaganDL for the nice words.
> 
> I know that a some tube amps sound clean like solid states, but I was hoping for a little variety. My ears are very sensitive to high notes and constantly these fequencies tires my ears. I was hoping that some tubey sound could help me in this regard. Maybe I will need to spend a little more than $80 to discover that. But even with the Solid Statish sound, I am really liking this dandy little amp.




@igorpadrao,

No problem, I understand what you mean, I'm pretty sensitive to Highs myself so I can relate & sympathise...
Speaking in general use, not P 20 specifically, depending on what head gear you're using, especially if IEMs, I suggest looking into Crystalline Audio Tips or Periodic Audio Silicone Single or Double Flange as personally, I find either works best if I need to tame the Highs.
Also, not a fan of EQ so if you do EQ, I suggest either don't or find a way to trim down the 2K spectrum.

If you're interested in using tubes to balance &/or reducing High Frequencies, I suggest finding a tube amp using any one or more of the following types :
*
6922/E88CC (Reflector, Tesla, Telefunken)
EL84 (Reflector, Telefunken)
12 AU7 (Telefunken)
12AX7 (Telefunken)
*

The only other thing I will add is try not to use guitar grade tubes in hifi gears unless you want more crunch though this will also enhance the Highs, Electro Harmonix, Tung Sol, Mullard, JJ Electronics, just to name a few.

If you ever get the chance, try demo the Prima Luna EVO 100.

Hope you find this useful.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## Onik (Jan 31, 2020)

I tried the P20 in a different room downstairs in my house and the humm/buzz is a bit less but still noticeable after volume -18 to -00. Probably something in my house is causing the ground loop issue.

Is there any other budget full balanced headphone tube amplifier and not hybrid?


----------



## Onik

Ctritical Bill said:


> I have had my P20 for a few weeks now and am currently trying out these russian sub-miniature tubes. These are 6N18B which have broadly similar characteristics to the 6N3P. These are almost identical to the more widely available 6N16B. So far I am liking the sound of them, bass is all there and very sweet highs.
> I have also put in sockets for the op amps and I am using OPA2107 at the moment. I bought some OPA1622 to try but one failed immediately ( these don't appear to be be very reliable ) so I will have to get some more.



If You have the money replace the opamps with Burson V5i.


----------



## Celty

I received the (new to me) Loxjie P20, and was lucky I had already ordered an upgrade power supply for (1.5 amps vs, 5 amps) because as it turned out the amp was DOA and I was hoping the problem was the power supply. It was. The seller had been willing to refund, no problem, but I really wanted it to work out. My initial impressions were quite positive, it sounded pretty good when ABing against my Monolith 887.

Today, earlier than anticipated, the upgrade tubes arrived (6N3P-DR NOS from Russia). Brand new with no burn-in, they do make a difference. Gave the amp more authority on bass, and seems more detailed. I am impressed right now that this inexpensive tube amp can sound so good! It's a good pairing with the HD6XX, but the Auteurs seem to love this amp.

I now have $92.00 total invested in this little baby, and I truly cannot imagine getting anything better than I am experiencing right now in this price range. It feels like it is driving my Auteur's better than my Monolith 887. That is impressive. I need to do a lot more listening to be definitive about it, but heck, just that my first impressions are in this ballpark amazes me.


----------



## pankar0

Hello guys, I m interesting to buy the p20 and I have some questions...
Which upgrade combo (tube type and power supply) is the best. 
I have the sennheiser hd 660s and for source I m using the pioneer N70ae .
I feed the p20 from pioneer N70ae xlr outputs.


----------



## dpump

IMHO the best tubes are the 6N3P-DR. I tried 5670 and 396a; they run much hotter than the 6N3P tubes and aren't really an exact matching substitution. Make sure you get the DR tubes, not the E or PE; they aren't in the same league as the DR. There are good linear power supplies on eBay from China but a good moderate priced power supply is the iFi iPower 12V.


----------



## pankar0

I want to ask if someone test the p20 with sennheiser hd 660s...???
And how it sounds compared to  smsl sp200.
I was thinking maybe is better option to buy the smsl sp200..???
I prefer more musical sound not the clinical.


----------



## Celty

pankar0 said:


> Hello guys, I m interesting to buy the p20 and I have some questions...
> Which upgrade combo (tube type and power supply) is the best.
> I have the sennheiser hd 660s and for source I m using the pioneer N70ae .
> I feed the p20 from pioneer N70ae xlr outputs.


I got my power supply on Amazon - the "SHNITPWR 12V 5A 60W Power Supply" for $11.68. My 6N3P-DR tubes came from tubes-store.com - $6.00 each.


----------



## PaganDL

pankar0 said:


> I want to ask if someone test the p20 with sennheiser hd 660s...???
> And how it sounds compared to  smsl sp200.
> I was thinking maybe is better option to buy the smsl sp200..???
> I prefer more musical sound not the clinical.




@pankar0,

While I can't tell you how the P 20 sounds with the 660, not a fan of Senn head gear, except 820...

Aside from SP 200 being a solid state & THX, which subjectively & personally, I find tuned warmer than the P20, with both stock & 6n3 DR tubes, depends what you are going for overall aside from more musical as I like both amps in equal measure...but for different reasons...with musical being one for both...

The only real advantage SP 200 has over P 20 is it runs ridiculously cool (this might be useful given you are in Athens) & has such a low noise floor unless something is playing, you might not know it's on (aside from the really, really bright LEDs which tell you it is)
However, P 20 is the only tube amp at any level I have used, aside from owning, which I can use with really, really sensitive IEMs.

Hope  this makes sense.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## pankar0 (Feb 10, 2020)

Thank you for your help,
I'm in love with the design  and color (red) of  the p20... also the tubes brings a nice atmosphere for the eyes pleasure...
The reason that I was thinking the smsl is the similar price with the p20 (tube rolling, power supply it's about 200€).
The smsl is 90€ over...
The second reason is the distortion, I think the loxjie (tube amp) have issues with that.
Or make a mistake..??
I m a new at headphones .


----------



## PaganDL

pankar0 said:


> Thank you for your help,
> I'm in love with the design  and color (red) of  the p20... also the tubes brings a nice atmosphere for the eyes pleasure...
> The reason that I was thinking the smsl is the similar price with the p20 (tube rolling, power supply it's about 200€).
> The smsl is 90€ over...
> ...




@pankar0,

No problem, happy to help.

Honestly, here's the thing, with P 20, tube rolling is unnecessary unless you really want to...
Personally & subjectively, I suggest using the stock tubes for a year before you decide to tube roll though as said, P 20 doesn't need a tube change.
I had my P 20 for almost 2 years before I decided to try the Miltary Spec tubes, that's what the DR stands for by the way, over stock.
Personally & subjectively, there's not a whole lot of difference sonically though your mileage will vary.
My reason for changing the tubes was more longevity as Mil Spec Grades usually last twice as long, minimum, compared to conventional tube, not to mention more robust.
As to power supply, I have no issues with the stock PSU so honestly, changing it just for the sake won't really gain you any benefit...that's my experience anyway...

Regarding distortion, aside from sound in general being distorted air, how loud are you playing to listen at as P 20 especially, doesn't need to be very loud, I usually don't have it more than -20 db (10db) most of the time, with sensitive IEMs, the average is usually -15 average.
Generally, the only issue with tube amps tends to be a audible to high noise floor, especially for sensitive IEMs & some sensitive headphones, (below 20 Ohms for both).
As I mentioned in my previous post, P 20 is the *ONLY* tube amp, so far & I have used many, far more than I own, I would listen with sensitive head gear.

As a final note, honestly, the only way to gain more experience with audio gear is to demo as much as possible with a good quality, well recorded source, playing media you know really well.
As my tag states, trust your own ears & opinions, not anyone else's.

Feel free to ask more when you need.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## pankar0

PaganDL said:


> @pankar0,
> 
> No problem, happy to help.
> 
> ...


Thank you again...

Ok maybe you have right... the 99€ it's a bargain price and I must try and listen and enjoy this amp ...
I want to ask you about the cables. 
I need a 4pin xlr cable for my 660s.(any suggestion from Europe ) or can i use an adaptor for the stock sennheiser 4.4 balanced cable... something like this..???

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/jack...emale-jack-44mm-gold-plated-15cm-p-13867.html


----------



## PaganDL

pankar0 said:


> Thank you again...
> 
> Ok maybe you have right... the 99€ it's a bargain price and I must try and listen and enjoy this amp ...
> I want to ask you about the cables.
> ...




No problem, @pankar0,

Happy to help.

I have no experience with the company you linked to as I am outside the EU to give you an opinion though *this should work* but don't quote me.
I have a both a similar adapter & a dedicated cable with 4 pin XLR though personally, depending on mood, I generally just use the Single Ended if I don't want to mess around with cable connections.
If there wasn't a health crisis in China, I suggest getting a just as affordable custom version from veclan.com
However, better suggestion would be try to find a pro audio shop in your local area which either has the same adapter off the shelf or get the pro audio shop to make you a custom one.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## tomp86 (Feb 14, 2020)

how long does it take to make the p20 warm up?
I listen to it 60 h with 6N3P-DR tubes
and I miss the sound detali


----------



## rprodrigues (Feb 16, 2020)

I'm considering buying the P20 to drive my HD6x and HE4xx but I would like to drive my low impedance IEMs and heaphones also.

Anyone using an impedance adapter to drive low impedance hp and IEMs ? Any issue?


----------



## rprodrigues

DBaldock9 said:


> Yesterday afternoon, I did go ahead and assemble the Balanced 4-Pin XLR Plug -to- 2.5mm TRRS Jack Adapter, and verified that the wiring is correct, using the tests on AudioCheck.net.
> .
> 
> .
> ...







DBaldock9,

Nice work!

Would you mind sharing the models of the XLR and 2.5mm connectors?


----------



## dpump

(Mass)Drop sells this adaptor complete for $20. The Drop adaptor does have all gold plated connections and seems to be nice quality.


----------



## rprodrigues

dpump said:


> (Mass)Drop sells this adaptor complete for $20. The Drop adaptor does have all gold plated connections and seems to be nice quality.



I will take a look at it. 
Thank you.


----------



## DBaldock9

rprodrigues said:


> DBaldock9,
> 
> Nice work!
> 
> Would you mind sharing the models of the XLR and 2.5mm connectors?



I've tried a few different 2.5mm TRRS jacks, for building Balanced cable adapters & extensions, and the one that grips the plug the best, and provides the most secure electrical connection (no drop-outs when the cable is twisted or moved), is the Eidolic 2.5mm TRRS jack. 
I've bought some from Norne Audio - http://www.norneaudio.com/litzheim/...astell-kern-onkyo-cowon-hiby-r3-diy-connector
One thing about these connectors, is that they don't have a back-shell - so you have to use heat-shrink or some other method to protect the solder connections.

The Neutrik XLR Plug came from Amazon - https://smile.amazon.com/Neutrik-NC4MXXB-Connector-Housing-Contacts/dp/B002A4GJ8Q/
NOTE:  I did have to file down the interior cable clamp assembly, so that it didn't put too much stress on the solder connections of the TRRS jack.

I believe that I used some 20-AWG solid wire between the lugs on the 2.5mm jack, and the solder cups on the XLR plug.  
Two of the wires are straight, and two "cross over".
The crossing wires are cut a little longer, so they're all the same length, when everything is soldered together.


----------



## rprodrigues

Thank you @DBaldock9


I already have a replacement for the Neutrik XLR Plug, but the Eidolic connector has an 'unusual' body. I will try to find something similar, otherwise I will mount the usual cable adapter.


----------



## rprodrigues

PaganDL said:


> @pankar0,
> 
> While I can't tell you how the P 20 sounds with the 660, not a fan of Senn head gear, except 820...
> 
> ...



Hi there, PaganDL.

Have you used any impedance adapter with the P20 and your IEMs?


----------



## PaganDL

rprodrigues said:


> Hi there, PaganDL.
> 
> Have you used any impedance adapter with the P20 and your IEMs?




Hi @rprodrigues,

Apologies for the delay in reply.

Unfortunately, impedance adapters don't work for me as I have quite good hearing on the sensitive side so even with a high impedance adapter, I can pick up hiss & overall noise.
If I use gear which has a high noise floor which isn't very often, I usually don't use sensitive IEMs or any IEMs.

P20 is perhaps the only tube amp I have used so far which is able to be used with sensitive IEMs no problem.
I have mentioned in previous posts the noise floor on the P20 is ridiculously low for a tube amp.

Hope this is useful.

Hope you have a great day !


----------



## rprodrigues

PaganDL said:


> Hi @rprodrigues,
> 
> Apologies for the delay in reply.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much, PaganDL.


----------



## DBaldock9

I've been using 6N3P-E tubes in my P20, but now I've got a set of NOS (1980) Russian 6N3P-DR tubes on order. 
. 
It will be interesting to see if there's a noticeable difference in the sound between the two tubes, while using the OPA1622 op-amps to provide the output current.


----------



## Jimmyblues1959 (Mar 21, 2020)

PaganDL said:


> @warbles,
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> 
> ...


Have owned my P20 for over a year and really like it.   Sounds great with my HD 600, HD 6XX, Hifiman HE4XX and Fostex T50RP MK3.

Great Value IMHO. Especially given that it's fully balanced with a stepped volume control.


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

GravityEyelids said:


> Just recieved my Loxjie (they sent black instead of red and im pissed because im not going to feel like sending it back), and actually...i'm not super impressed. Not sure what it is, but it just sounds muddy and not detailed at all. Do these things need to burn in or something? Or are the stock tubes and Single Ended outputs really that bad? Nonetheless, i'm going to give it a fair shot, as it's my first dedicated desktop amp, and i will be trying balanced as well as different tubes.



Single ended is very underpowered. In fully balanced mode the P20 improves significantly.  Have owned mine for over a year
and really enjoy it with my  T50RP MK3 and HE 4XX.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Oct 17, 2020)

A couple of observations about the P20 circuitry -

1.) For the Output Op-Amp power supply circuit - they're using a LM317T / LM337T pair of regulators, set to ±18Vdc.
So, if you're planning to do op-amp rolling, they need to be rated for at least a ±18Vdc supply.
Or, by changing a couple of SMT resistors (the "102" connected to the Adjustment Pin 1 on the regulators), the voltage could be reduced to ±15Vdc or ±12Vdc.

*EDIT:  I found that the LM317T / LM337T regulators are actually taking the ±18Vdc, and creating the ±7Vdc rails.  I suspect that the ±18Vdc is being created by the custom wound transformer (near the power input jack), as part of the internal switching power supply.  Since the source supply is +12Vdc, and the amp has rails labeled as +115Vdc (for the tubes) and ±18Vdc, but I can't detect any specific voltage regulator chips for those rails, similar to the LM317T / LM337T pair.*

.
2.) While there are 47Ω current limiting resistors in series with Pin 1 of the four op-amps, which drive the L+, L-, R+, R- outputs --- those resistors are inside the feedback loops created by the adjacent 47Ω resistors that connect to the non-inverting input Pin 3 on the four op-amps.  Having the current limiting resistors inside the feedback loops, means that the circuits appear to have 0Ω output resistance.  An explanation is here - Stackexchange.com - measuring-output-impedance-of-op-amp
.
3.) The taller components (Relay, Capacitor, Output Jack) that are very near to the op-amp sockets, still means that larger discrete op-amps won't fit.


----------



## magicscreen

DBaldock9 said:


> means that the circuits appear to have 0Ω output resistance.


They measured 47 ohm output impedance.
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/loxjie-p20-technical-measurements.7607/


----------



## Cyberthingy

Celty said:


> I received the (new to me) Loxjie P20, and was lucky I had already ordered an upgrade power supply for (1.5 amps vs, 5 amps) because as it turned out the amp was DOA and I was hoping the problem was the power supply. It was. The seller had been willing to refund, no problem, but I really wanted it to work out. My initial impressions were quite positive, it sounded pretty good when ABing against my Monolith 887.
> 
> Today, earlier than anticipated, the upgrade tubes arrived (6N3P-DR NOS from Russia). Brand new with no burn-in, they do make a difference. Gave the amp more authority on bass, and seems more detailed. I am impressed right now that this inexpensive tube amp can sound so good! It's a good pairing with the HD6XX, but the Auteurs seem to love this amp.
> 
> I now have $92.00 total invested in this little baby, and I truly cannot imagine getting anything better than I am experiencing right now in this price range. It feels like it is driving my Auteur's better than my Monolith 887. That is impressive. I need to do a lot more listening to be definitive about it, but heck, just that my first impressions are in this ballpark amazes me.



I agree with you on the 6N3P-DR tubes. They are a great match for this amp. I spent big bucks on some Western Electric 5670 tubes and I like the Russian tubes better. You really can't beat this amp for yje money, especially if you can use it in a balanced configuration.


----------



## pankar0

Cyberthingy said:


> I agree with you on the 6N3P-DR tubes. They are a great match for this amp. I spent big bucks on some Western Electric 5670 tubes and I like the Russian tubes better. You really can't beat this amp for yje money, especially if you can use it in a balanced configuration.


 
I m interesting about these tubes, can you give me a link... for Europe.


----------



## Celty

pankar0 said:


> I m interesting about these tubes, can you give me a link... for Europe.


Here is where I got mine:
https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=1277


----------



## Cyberthingy

pankar0 said:


> I m interesting about these tubes, can you give me a link... for Europe.


I picked mine up from an ebay listing out of Ukraine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6N3P-DR...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## DBaldock9 (Apr 5, 2020)

Decided to disable the LEDs that are under the Tube sockets - by removing the series resistors.
I'm also looking into changing the resistors for the op-amp voltage regulators, making them ±12Vdc, so I can use AD8397 op-amps (with their 12V Max supply voltage).
.
Before - LED Resistors in place -
.


.
After - LED Resistors removed -
.


----------



## igorpadrao

DBaldock9 said:


> Decided to disable the LEDs that are under the Tube sockets - by removing the series resistors.
> I'm also looking into changing the resistors for the op-amp voltage regulators, making them ±12Vdc, so I can use AD8397 op-amps (with their 12V Max supply voltage).
> .
> Before - LED Resistors in place -
> ...


Is this procedure somewhat difficult? I hate these blue LED of this amp.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Apr 5, 2020)

igorpadrao said:


> Is this procedure somewhat difficult? I hate these blue LED of this amp.



I've got one of these Velleman VTDESOL3U Vacuum Desoldering Irons from Amazon, and it worked to extract the solder.
I also used my old soldering station, and some solder wick, to finish getting the sockets out.
Just took it slow and steady, to keep from damaging the sockets or circuit board.

*Edit:* An alternative method for blocking the LED light, might be to cut a piece of electrical tape, and press it down the center of the sockets, onto the LEDs.


----------



## igorpadrao

Thanks @DBaldock9  I will probably use some tape now and I will try to de-soldering only in a moment post-pandemic (in case I mess it up and need to buy a new amp).

I love the faint natural glow of the tubes, but the LED ruins it for me. I will probably use some red film to turn the blue LED panel to purple (wish I could change the color to red, but I do not think it is possible).

Most of the time I listen to music in a dark room and I think blue and white lights ruins the atmosphere.


----------



## magicscreen

Has Loxjie P20 not one red LED and one blue LED? That should be purple color default.
Btw I agree the blue lights are terrible fashion.  My Marantz amp has a lots of them


----------



## igorpadrao

magicscreen said:


> Has Loxjie P20 not one red LED and one blue LED? That should be purple color default.
> Btw I agree the blue lights are terrible fashion. My Marantz amp has a lots of them




The internal LEDs (the ones below the tubes) are purple (probably one red and another blue). But the front panel is blue (and very annoying).


----------



## dimoniet79

Has anybody try the p20 with the akg 712 pro?

I have just bought a Pro ject s2 pre box dac and an AKG 712 pro, and I am a little dissapointed listening flac, I hoped much more because the are my first hi-fi hd and dac, and I am not getting much more improvememt from my superlix 30€ headphones and spotify streaming. So I am thinking tha maybe this headphone need some amplifier.
Thanks a sorry because my english.


----------



## DBaldock9

DBaldock9 said:


> A couple of observations about the P20 circuitry -
> 
> 1.) For the Output Op-Amp power supply circuit - they're using a LM317T / LM337T pair of regulators, set to ±18Vdc.
> So, if you're planning to do op-amp rolling, they need to be rated for at least a ±18Vdc supply.
> ...



For #1, I've determined that the LM317T / LM337T pair of regulators are actually being used to output the ±7Vdc.
I can't figure out which components are being used to make the ±18Vdc, so I don't how to reduce the voltage to ±12Vdc (to use a wider range of op-amps).


----------



## DBaldock9

DBaldock9 said:


> For #1, I've determined that the LM317T / LM337T pair of regulators are actually being used to output the ±7Vdc.
> I can't figure out which components are being used to make the ±18Vdc, so I don't how to reduce the voltage to ±12Vdc (to use a wider range of op-amps).



I've sent an email to Loxjie, asking how I might reduce the ±18Vdc to ±12Vdc.
Hopefully they'll answer.


----------



## bogginhead

If anyone here has a couple of either Amperex Holland made 6DJ8 or RCA / RCA Command 5670 tubes they'd be interested in trading for a matched pair of Tesla 6N3P-type tubes I'd be willing to trade with them. The Teslas are NOS and never used a single time.  Come with their original boxes as well.  I'll gladly send pics if anyone is interested.  Just message me if so; thanks!  Oh, by the way these tubes were purchased specifically to use with my LAP if that helps.


----------



## Abyss77

Hello all,

I had the luck that my brother gave me his P20 for free  - and I can honestly say that i like the sound the amplifier produces very much, though I have to admit that my experience with amps is very limited.

Because I would like to try the P20 in balanced mode I am looking for a "cheap" DAC. After a little search I found the iBasso DC01. According to iBasso it is a "Hi-Res Balanced DAC" - so the dongle should do the job???

Sorry for my - maybe stupide - questione, but I am a totally noob .

Abyss


----------



## igorpadrao

Abyss77 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I had the luck that my brother gave me his P20 for free  - and I can honestly say that i like the sound the amplifier produces very much, though I have to admit that my experience with amps is very limited.
> 
> ...




I don't know the iBasso DC01 per si, but thinking that it is a portable dac, I believe he is also an amplifier. So, I am told that put an amplified signal in another amplifier degrades the signal very much. So I believe that your best alternatives are:

iFi Zen DAC
https://www.amazon.com/iFi-Zen-DAC-Converter-Unbalanced/dp/B07YZK5MDS

Drop + Grace Design Standard Balanced DAC
https://drop.com/buy/drop-grace-design-standard-dac-balanced

Geshelli Labs Enog2 Pro
https://geshelli.com/shop/ols/categories/enog2-pro

SMSL M300 MkII
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PJQDSF2
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000619131130.html

I believe iFi is the best for fun, the Geshelli is best for critical listening, the SMSL has the best features. But I am also a noob. Let's see if any member more experienced could add something to my resume.


----------



## DBaldock9

Abyss77 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I had the luck that my brother gave me his P20 for free  - and I can honestly say that i like the sound the amplifier produces very much, though I have to admit that my experience with amps is very limited.
> 
> ...



While the Balanced output voltage of the iBasso DCO1 is at least 1.2V, which is appropriate for the XLR Balanced Input of the P20 - the DCO1 only has L+, L-, R+, R- connections, and doesn't have a GND (the third pin on the XLR jack).  So, there may be an issue with noise.
.
Doing a check of DACs with Balanced outputs, I'm not seeing any strictly portable units, and it looks like the SMSL SU-8 might be the least expensive model - at $250.
https://www.amazon.com/Decoder-SMSL-2ES9038Q2M-768kHz-Balance/dp/B07DQDNF6S/


----------



## igorpadrao (Apr 24, 2020)

DBaldock9 said:


> While the Balanced output voltage of the iBasso DCO1 is at least 1.2V, which is appropriate for the XLR Balanced Input of the P20 - the DCO1 only has L+, L-, R+, R- connections, and doesn't have a GND (the third pin on the XLR jack). So, there may be an issue with noise.
> .


I believe that the iFi DAC that I mentioned could suffer of the same problem since the balanced output is 4.4mm.



DBaldock9 said:


> Doing a check of DACs with Balanced outputs, I'm not seeing any strictly portable units, and it looks like the SMSL SU-8 might be the least expensive model - at $250.
> https://www.amazon.com/Decoder-SMSL-2ES9038Q2M-768kHz-Balance/dp/B07DQDNF6S/


Besides the iFi DAC, the other units that I mentioned are full balanced and less expensive than the SU-8. The M300 MkII is about the same price, but you gain Bluetooth input and a DAC that measures better than the SU-8 (according to audiosciencereview.com).

The HiFi Express has the SMSL M300 Mark II in stock (as opposed to Amazon).
https://hifi-express.com/products/s...1&_sid=76ae4d7e4&_ss=r&variant=31495631208548


----------



## DBaldock9

igorpadrao said:


> I believe that the iFi DAC that I mentioned could suffer of the same problem since the balanced output is 4.4mm.
> 
> 
> Besides the iFi DAC, the other units that I mentioned are full balanced and less expensive than the SU-8. The M300 MkII is about the same price, but you gain Bluetooth input and a DAC that measures better than the SU-8 (according to audiosciencereview.com).



If you have a DAC with a 4.4mm output, it should have a GND connection.
But, most devices that have a 4.4mm jack, are designed to drive headphones.
.


----------



## igorpadrao

DBaldock9 said:


> If you have a DAC with a 4.4mm output, it should have a GND connection.
> But, most devices that have a 4.4mm jack, are designed to drive headphones.


Did not know that. So maybe the iFi Zen DAC is also a fully balanced. But is better to double check.


----------



## DBaldock9

It looks like the portable iFi Hip-DAC, at $150, also has a 4.4mm Balanced jack -
https://www.amazon.com/iFi-Hip-dac-Portable-Headphone-Balanced/dp/B0842W67F1


----------



## cirodts

I bought the smsl sp 200, it has balanced inputs and outputs but it is not a true double mono balanced amplifier, the loxie instead?


----------



## DBaldock9 (May 9, 2020)

My project this weekend - Install a set of Tantalum & Ceramic bypass capacitors for the op-amp sockets.  There's just enough space between the case and the back of the board, for the capacitors to fit.  Photos to follow.   
. 
OK - Finished with the mod, and here's the set of capacitors, connected to the ±18Vdc power pins, and to GND -
(the Kapton tape is insulating the output relay pins) 
. 

.
.
The P20 still sounds good, and should be less likely to have issues with noise, when op-amp rolling.


----------



## igorpadrao

cirodts said:


> I bought the smsl sp 200, it has balanced inputs and outputs but it is not a true double mono balanced amplifier, the loxie instead?


As far as I know, the Loxjie P20 is a true balanced headphone amplifier. I have a P20 and a Magni Heresy, from Schiit. Two different beasts. I think you will like to compare the P20 to the SP200, specially if you try different tubes.


----------



## GravityEyelids (May 11, 2020)

Abyss77 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I had the luck that my brother gave me his P20 for free  - and I can honestly say that i like the sound the amplifier produces very much, though I have to admit that my experience with amps is very limited.
> 
> ...




Just get a Raspberry Pi 3 and a Hifiberry DAC+ XLR. Cheapest balanced source/DAC you're going to find. And now you have a dedicated headless media computer/streamer and something that can play your local library of FLAC or whatever else.  https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/hifiberry-dac-pro-xlr/

Or just "fake it" and buy a 3.5mm to dual 3 pin XLR cable and run the output balanced.


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

Abyss77 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I had the luck that my brother gave me his P20 for free  - and I can honestly say that i like the sound the amplifier produces very much, though I have to admit that my experience with amps is very limited.
> 
> ...


You may want to try this new entry which looks promising and retails for $199.  It is balanced.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.phpthreads/soncoz-la-qxd1-balanced-dac-review.13459/


----------



## DesignTaylor

If anyone is considering the Loxjie or the Xduoo I made a quick video comparing these two affordable balanced tube amps.


----------



## Researcher

Hello,

I have got second times P20. I had purchased P20 off Amazon.uk. It was a red return product. I liked a lot its amazing wet, huge sound stage and warm sound signature. I somehow did not like red colour, and returned it one year ago. The last one came from AliExpress- China warehouse. I have been listening the new one over a week. It sounds in a completely different way like a solid state amp. I have 789 as well. Both has interestingly the same dry sound, narrow soundstage. I use the same dac and headphone.

I suspect they fixed high impedance issue. I think that the reason why the first P20 has  wet, huge sound stage and warm sound signature could be output impedance. BTW, I enjoy Ether C Flow with 24 ohm of impedance. Another reason might be related to stock tubes.

Briefly,  they behave like two different products. I am wondering your thoughts why they are so.


----------



## lantian

DBaldock9 said:


> If you have a DAC with a 4.4mm output, it should have a GND connection.
> But, most devices that have a 4.4mm jack, are designed to drive headphones.
> .


No. Most devices will have it not connected at all. No headphones will ever have ground so why shouls it be connected to the plug..  Having it not connected improves the sound quality in portatable players more than it could ever degrade it. So far have never had any issues qith any balanced hear going to amp. Never have i had ground noise or any noise between them. The same as with 2.5mm balanced  it by definition has no ground.
As for double amping. It is only a problem if your output impedence is high. Otherwise youe fine aswell


----------



## igorpadrao

lantian said:


> No. Most devices will have it not connected at all. No headphones will ever have ground so why shouls it be connected to the plug..  Having it not connected improves the sound quality in portatable players more than it could ever degrade it. So far have never had any issues qith any balanced hear going to amp. Never have i had ground noise or any noise between them. The same as with 2.5mm balanced  it by definition has no ground.
> As for double amping. It is only a problem if your output impedence is high. Otherwise youe fine aswell


So portable DAC/Amps are ok? If so, I believe these cheap DACs can be very in hand with a 2.5mm to XLR cable.

PowerDAC v2 E1DA Headphone Amp PEQ DSP BLE DAC
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000078625548.html

E1DA 9038S Gen 3 USB DAC Headphone Amp
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000090081514.html

Measurements of 9038S model:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-e1da-9038s-bal-portable-dac-amp.8424/


----------



## monousa

Shane D said:


> How would you describe the Stellia sound? I am thinking my Grado's would likely sound very good out of the Loxjie.
> 
> Shane D


Hi Shane
I am running an iPad to a HidizS8 to the rca inputs of the Loxjie PD20. I listen with Grado Sr125, Sr 325, Gw100 (wired) , and Ms 1 Alessandro. The setup sings. Each Grado model has slightly different colors of sound. I use a balance to to 3.5 mm female. And an adapter from the Grado models that have 1/8 plugs. I will be testing two other dacs. The Modi 2 Uber and an Audioquest dragonfly soon. Grado headphones are perfect for the Loxjie in my opinion. I listen to Beatles, Zep, Floyd, etc. as well as bluegrass, Eric Church etc. and if you can believe it, classical.


----------



## Shane D

monousa said:


> Hi Shane
> I am running an iPad to a HidizS8 to the rca inputs of the Loxjie PD20. I listen with Grado Sr125, Sr 325, Gw100 (wired) , and Ms 1 Alessandro. The setup sings. Each Grado model has slightly different colors of sound. I use a balance to to 3.5 mm female. And an adapter from the Grado models that have 1/8 plugs. I will be testing two other dacs. The Modi 2 Uber and an Audioquest dragonfly soon. Grado headphones are perfect for the Loxjie in my opinion. I listen to Beatles, Zep, Floyd, etc. as well as bluegrass, Eric Church etc. and if you can believe it, classical.



Wow, you really reached back for that one!  
But thank you very much for the reply. I actually ended up buying my Grado's their own tube amp a few months ago from Mapletree Audio Design.


----------



## monousa

Shane D said:


> Wow, you really reached back for that one!
> But thank you very much for the reply. I actually ended up buying my Grado's their own tube amp a few months ago from Mapletree Audio Design.


Wowza! Nice! How does it play with the Grado's? Love that guitar amp volume knob.


----------



## Shane D

monousa said:


> Wowza! Nice! How does it play with the Grado's? Love that guitar amp volume knob.



It is a very nice combo! The guy who makes them (each one is hand made in a small shop in Ontario, Canada) is also a Grado fan and that is what sealed it for me.

I have to admit that I looked very hard at the Tuba amp by Hagerman Audio. Another small shop, but this one in Hawaii.


----------



## monousa

Shane D said:


> It is a very nice combo! The guy who makes them (each one is hand made in a small shop in Ontario, Canada) is also a Grado fan and that is what sealed it for me.
> 
> I have to admit that I looked very hard at the Tuba amp by Hagerman Audio. Another small shop, but this one in Hawaii.


Interesting. Is the Maple Tree a true power amp? Or solid state power?


----------



## Shane D

monousa said:


> Interesting. Is the Maple Tree a true power amp? Or solid state power?



It is a pure tube amp. I had tried several hybrid amps with no satisfaction. I was looking for a low impedance tube amp, which are harder to find. Narrowed it down to this.


----------



## Skullophile

Any HD800 owners in here? Does this amp pair well with them?


----------



## Researcher

Shane D said:


> I was looking for a low impedance tube amp, which are harder to find. Narrowed it down to this.


I believe you are on a wrong way.


----------



## sufjennheiser

I 


igorpadrao said:


> So portable DAC/Amps are ok? If so, I believe these cheap DACs can be very in hand with a 2.5mm to XLR cable.
> 
> PowerDAC v2 E1DA Headphone Amp PEQ DSP BLE DAC
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000078625548.html
> ...



Did try this a couple of days back using a 2.5mm to a 2 x XLR cable. Easy enough to solder if you know what to do (the options on Ali were too expensive for me haha)

But yes, the clarity of E1DA is unmatched. The setup is very powerful, but a bit too clinical for me. I have a Nobsound TDA1387 which in comparison is nowhere near in either clarity or dynamics, but very musical.

Why is the balanced supposed to sound better btw? I noticed that when using e1da -> balanced in p20 -> balanced out Amiron home, a volume of -30 is pretty much loud enough. But using the same headphones in balanced out with a nobsound, can take the volume till -15 on some tracks. 

Is it due to the higher voltage of line level in the balanced case? Nobsound has a measly 1.5V, which I believe is short of even the standard single ended.


----------



## DBaldock9

sufjennheiser said:


> I
> 
> 
> Did try this a couple of days back using a 2.5mm to a 2 x XLR cable. Easy enough to solder if you know what to do (the options on Ali were too expensive for me haha)
> ...



In the P20, the JRC-5532-D op-amps, which drive the Balanced output, have ±18VDC going to them - so there's potentially up to 36VDC (minus a couple of volts, for drops within the amplifier circuit) across the headphone drivers.
.
The Specs from the Loxjie website say -
.
- Output Power -
Balanced headphones:
32Ω = 425mW
64Ω =  665mW
150Ω = 565mW
300Ω = 325mW
600Ω = 175mW

Unbalanced headphones:
32Ω = 385mW
64Ω = 210mW
150Ω = 105mW
300Ω = 55mW
600Ω = 29mW


----------



## sufjennheiser

DBaldock9 said:


> In the P20, the JRC-5532-D op-amps, which drive the Balanced output, have ±18VDC going to them - so there's potentially up to 36VDC (minus a couple of volts, for drops within the amplifier circuit) across the headphone drivers.
> .
> The Specs from the Loxjie website say -
> .
> ...


Guess I should've made it clearer; the output is still balanced in both cases, only the input varies.

I also used an RCA to XLR to "fake it" and use Nobsound as balanced input. Compared to an actual balanced source, it still had worse dynamics, bass lacked punch, etc. 

Is it because of low output voltage on the DAC side? I'm sorry if that's a stupid question.


----------



## CADCAM

Anyone heard anything about the Loxjie D30 hp amp\DAC?
Looks nice and price seems more than reasonable.

http://www.loxjie-audio.com/productshow.asp?id=156


----------



## DBaldock9

sufjennheiser said:


> Guess I should've made it clearer; the output is still balanced in both cases, only the input varies.
> 
> I also used an RCA to XLR to "fake it" and use Nobsound as balanced input. Compared to an actual balanced source, it still had worse dynamics, bass lacked punch, etc.
> 
> Is it because of low output voltage on the DAC side? I'm sorry if that's a stupid question.



Looking at the Specs for the E1DA 9038S [ https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index/9038s ], it appears to be able to output ~3.3V @ 32Ω
Since the Nobsound TDA1387 [ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32881225029.html ] has an Line Output of ~1.5V - that would explain the difference in attenuator settings on the P20, for the two input sources.


----------



## Mellowship

The P20 in full balanced mode, driving the demanding K340. 

There was no way I could amplify these 400 Ohm headphones to satisfactory levels on a budget if it wasn't for the Loxjie. It is connected to a SMSL M500 DAC through XLR. The volume on the Loxjie is usually around -15 to -10 db, with the DAC being remotely controlled to volumes around 15/40 to 30/40.


----------



## CADCAM (Sep 29, 2020)

So I'm pretty sure that I was running the stock tube in my P20, it says 6H3N-E on it and sounded good but I noticed I was always going for one of my other hp setups and the P20\SU-8 combo was sitting alot.
I had bought another amp that failed that also used the same 6N3 type tube but I bought these instead as a replacement to the stock tube-
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-2C51-396A-6385-6n3-Matched-Pair-Made-in-USSR-in-1968-military-tubes-2-PCS/253572965875?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
It says 6H3N on the box well I just tried them in the P20 and they sound excellent! Way tighter and a bit more detailed then the 6H3N-E.
Anyone know what the differences are between these two tubes? I just ordered a backup set after listening, it's that good!


----------



## dpump

Myself and others have stated before: get the 6N3P-DR. It is superior to any of the standard 6N3P-E tubes.


----------



## CADCAM

dpump said:


> Myself and others have stated before: get the 6N3P-DR. It is superior to any of the standard 6N3P-E tubes.


Well I must have missed that one and man did I pay for it!
I've had the P20 for a while now and always liked it but never really loved it. I got the HE400i with the Periapt balanced cable and the SU-8 DAC but still wasn't blown away... figured it was just the way it was gonna sound. 
Being a hybrid amp I never thought rolling tubes would make a tremendous difference in sound but these new tubes absolutely smoke the stock tube! Listening to some Willie & Lobo Fandango Nights and the detail and separation are delectable.
Does anyone know the difference between the tube I'm now using https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-2C51-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
and this tube https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-6N3P-...151100?hash=item34104362fc:g:ih8AAOSw5SNdRofW
Just wondering if things can get even better...


----------



## intoitreviews

GravityEyelids said:


> Okay so there is really not much out there on the Loxjie P20. There's a few out there that have given really high regards to this thing, and i feel like it deserves a good discussion. (TL;DR: just read the bold stuff)
> 
> The main thing i want to know is regarding the balanced in/out. I DON'T want this to descend into a balanced argument thing. The point is that nearly every reviewer has mentioned how the balanced is noticeably better on this thing. I personally don't care about balanced - it's not something i need or care about. HOWEVER. It seems like the circuitry/electronics/whatever in this specific amp is somehow better than the unbalanced.
> 
> ...


----------



## intoitreviews

I did a review a while back: https://www.intoitreviews.com/post/a-review-of-the-loxjie-p20-neutral-cheap-and-balanced

www.intoitreviews.com


----------



## cirodts

the p20 is sufficient to drive the sundara unbalanced


----------



## Mellowship

cirodts said:


> the p20 is sufficient to drive the sundara unbalanced


It drives the k340 unbalanced, to very respectable levels. I actually use the unbalanced inputs to my turntable pre-amp, and the P20 does a pretty decent job on single ended to single ended with the hugely demanding 400 ohms of the k340. It also suits my K701 and helps taming its brutality in the highs while giving it a bit of much needed strength in the lows. I believe this is a great amp for ageing AKGs. 
But it is in full balanced mode that the real magic happens.


----------



## jenkinsontherun

General Question:
Tube rolling experts, I made a mistake today by assuming 7 pin had just one size.  I was wrong!  Bought some 7-pin off of amazon, and it does not fit the P20 (significantly too small).  Here is the link for reference: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B086HJ6L2T/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Now the obvious question is, what tubes can you recommend, especially those available in Canada?  If you are not in Canada, general recommendations are welcome. I will also browse this thread to see what you guys already recommend.

But yes, please help me with the fact that tube sizes vary, even with 7 pins.  In the future, how can I tell its exact size?

Cheers!


----------



## DBaldock9

jenkinsontherun said:


> General Question:
> Tube rolling experts, I made a mistake today by assuming 7 pin had just one size.  I was wrong!  Bought some 7-pin off of amazon, and it does not fit the P20 (significantly too small).  Here is the link for reference: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B086HJ6L2T/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Now the obvious question is, what tubes can you recommend, especially those available in Canada?  If you are not in Canada, general recommendations are welcome. I will also browse this thread to see what you guys already recommend.
> ...



There are some adapter sockets available - that allow tubes with similar characteristics, but different pin-outs, to be used in alternate sockets.
.
The sockets in the P20 are for 9-Pin tubes, and I don't know if there's an adapter to use a 7-Pin tube in a 9-Pin socket.
.
I do know that the Russian Reflektor 6N3P-DR Tubes work well in the P20.


----------



## jenkinsontherun

DBaldock9 said:


> There are some adapter sockets available - that allow tubes with similar characteristics, but different pin-outs, to be used in alternate sockets.
> .
> The sockets in the P20 are for 9-Pin tubes, and I don't know if there's an adapter to use a 7-Pin tube in a 9-Pin socket.
> .
> I do know that the Russian Reflektor 6N3P-DR Tubes work well in the P20.


Thanks @DBaldock9 , you're always helpful.  I didn't realize they were 9-pin, that's my bad.  I'll take your advice and look elsewhere!  Thanks!


----------



## sufjennheiser

jenkinsontherun said:


> General Question:
> Tube rolling experts, I made a mistake today by assuming 7 pin had just one size.  I was wrong!  Bought some 7-pin off of amazon, and it does not fit the P20 (significantly too small).  Here is the link for reference: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B086HJ6L2T/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Now the obvious question is, what tubes can you recommend, especially those available in Canada?  If you are not in Canada, general recommendations are welcome. I will also browse this thread to see what you guys already recommend.
> ...



I placed an order for 6N3P-DR on ebay. Shipped from Romania; cost 28$ for 4 tubes incl. shipping to India. So I believe the seller would ship to canada ar a reasonable rate too!


----------



## jenkinsontherun

sufjennheiser said:


> I placed an order for 6N3P-DR on ebay. Shipped from Romania; cost 28$ for 4 tubes incl. shipping to India. So I believe the seller would ship to canada ar a reasonable rate too!


I ordered those too, haha.  Just didn't want to wait 1-2 months potentially for them to get here.  Seller hasn't shipped them yet


----------



## sufjennheiser

jenkinsontherun said:


> I ordered those too, haha.  Just didn't want to wait 1-2 months potentially for them to get here.  Seller hasn't shipped them yet



ah. mine too took a week or so to ship. plus they've been in Bucharest ever since


----------



## CADCAM

Loxjie SMSL Oppo system


----------



## jenkinsontherun (Oct 20, 2020)

My oh my, how good the P20 matches the Sennheiser HD250 (Mk1).  Before, the HD250 is arguable unlistenable, as I am quite sensitive to treble.  But what the P20 did was melt away the treble - it's still there, but well extended, and softer, to put it plainly.  The treble is the reason why I am keeping these, and even contemplating selling my HD800.

It's *extremely* good, buttery, engaging, warm - with the HD250.  Admittedly, with something darker, it feels a bit too hazy.  Note that I have stock tubes, and 1.67 amp.

I don't know if this is a testament of moving from a $100 amp/dac (E17K) pushing 300 ohm headphones (lol), or to the P20, or to tube amps in general.

The question then becomes, is there a direct upgrade to the P20... without sacrificing its warm characteristic and overall signature.

I'm gonna take the next few days to order a 3A PS, upgrade my $20 cable for a Cardas, get new tubes.  It's gonna be a fun ride.


----------



## CADCAM

jenkinsontherun said:


> My oh my, how good the P20 matches the Sennheiser HD250 (Mk1).  Before, the HD250 is arguable unlistenable, as I am quite sensitive to treble.  But what the P20 did was melt away the treble - it's still there, but well extended, and softer, to put it plainly.  The treble is the reason why I am keeping these, and even contemplating selling my HD800.
> 
> It's *extremely* good, buttery, engaging, warm - with the HD250.  Admittedly, with something darker, it feels a bit too hazy.  Note that I have stock tubes, and 1.67 amp.
> 
> ...


I put these in my P20 https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-2C51-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
and the improvement was fantastic! Stock tube was ok I tried another Russian 6n3 which was OK then I tried these and finally!


----------



## jenkinsontherun

How long was shipping to NA?  I actually ordered those yesterday.


----------



## CADCAM

I'm in Massachusetts and it took a while to get here...maybe 7 to 10 days if I remember.


----------



## Hubert481

Where do i get
6N3P-DR  matched 1%. 
in europe?


----------



## CADCAM

Hubert481 said:


> Where do i get
> 6N3P-DR  matched 1%.
> in europe?


Try this ebay seller 
https://www.ebay.com/usr/tubes_old70?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754


----------



## zevind

Got a question I'm hoping @DBaldock9 or someone might be able to help me out with.

TL;DR: Could a bad opamp make the left channel silent, but only in balanced output mode?

I've had my p20 for about a week now, and I am truly in love with it. I had read most of this thread before I bought it, so by the time it showed up, I had a 5A power supply and 6N3P-E tubes waiting for it.

But last night I finally got around to trying the balanced output, and, I have no left channel in balanced. I got out the DMM and double checked all my wiring and compared it to Hart Audio Cable's pinouts. Even tried a different set of balanced headphones, still no left channel. I opened it up and reflowed almost every thru-hole component with a little silver bearing solder, and still no dice.

I really don't want to return it, as this unit sounds amazing on SE, has no hiss or anything all the way at max volume, works great except for the balanced output. I was wondering if someone who knows the circuit layout better, or can easily remove their opamps, could tell me if maybe just a bad NE5532 would be making tthe left channel fail, but only in BAL? I have plenty of spare opamps sitting around, but don't wanna put all the soldering work in, trying to shotgun the problem, if I'm not even in the ballpark.

Thanks so much in advance!


----------



## DBaldock9

zevind said:


> Got a question I'm hoping @DBaldock9 or someone might be able to help me out with.
> 
> TL;DR: Could a bad opamp make the left channel silent, but only in balanced output mode?
> 
> ...



That's certainly possible.
If the op-amp that drives the (L-) signal is faulty, then the Balanced 4-Pin XLR Output won't work - but the (L+) op-amp will still drive the Single-Ended 1/4" Output.
.
*One IMPORTANT Thing To Note:*  The Loxjie P20 supplies ±18VDC to the op-amp sockets - so you probably shouldn't use any devices that are rated for less than ±18VDC, if you're doing op-amp rolling.  For instance, the NE5532 is only rated for ±15VDC.


----------



## zevind

DBaldock9 said:


> That's certainly possible.
> If the op-amp that drives the (L-) signal is faulty, then the Balanced 4-Pin XLR Output won't work - but the (L+) op-amp will still drive the Single-Ended 1/4" Output.
> .
> *One IMPORTANT Thing To Note:*  The Loxjie P20 supplies ±18VDC to the op-amp sockets - so you probably shouldn't use any devices that are rated for less than ±18VDC, if you're doing op-amp rolling.  For instance, the NE5532 is only rated for ±15VDC.



Interesting. The chips in mine say JRC5532, which I assumed was just a JRC clone of the NE5532. I have a tube of LM4562's sitting around, they're rated for +-17v, though the spec sheet does say "Absolute Maximum 36V", which I'm gonna assume is equivalent of +-18V. I Guess I'm gonna try and tone out which opamp is the (L-). Already F'd, can't F it up anymore I suppose.
 Thanks man!


----------



## DBaldock9

zevind said:


> Interesting. The chips in mine say JRC5532, which I assumed was just a JRC clone of the NE5532. I have a tube of LM4562's sitting around, they're rated for +-17v, though the spec sheet does say "Absolute Maximum 36V", which I'm gonna assume is equivalent of +-18V. I Guess I'm gonna try and tone out which opamp is the (L-). Already F'd, can't F it up anymore I suppose.
> Thanks man!



The NJM or JRC5532 is a "higher" performance version of the NE5532.
From the Data Sheet - 
Operating Voltage = ±3VDC ~ ±20VDC


----------



## Sebasistan

I have an ifi ZEN DAC. Would that work as a balanced source for this one? I mean, it has a balanced, 4.4mm out, so I'd have to get a 4.4mm - 2x female 3pin XLR cable...


----------



## DBaldock9

Sebasistan said:


> I have an ifi ZEN DAC. Would that work as a balanced source for this one? I mean, it has a balanced, 4.4mm out, so I'd have to get a 4.4mm - 2x female 3pin XLR cable...



They need to be 3-Pin XLR-Male connectors, since the inputs on the P20 are XLR-Female.
.
Something like this cable from Amazon would work - 4.4mm to Dual XLR Male Balanced Audio Adapter Cable, 1M


----------



## Sebasistan (Nov 3, 2020)

DBaldock9 said:


> They need to be 3-Pin XLR-Male connectors, since the inputs on the P20 are XLR-Female.
> .
> Something like this cable from Amazon would work - 4.4mm to Dual XLR Male Balanced Audio Adapter Cable, 1M



...of course. However I got the idea that this needed an XLR-Female cable.

So, someone further down the thread posted a review where they talk about running IEMs out of this thing. I thought that wasn't possible due to the power levels - especially on the balanced out - being too high and potentially dangerous for IEMs to the point of destroying them. But people use this thing with IEMs as well as full sized cans?

I mean, not that I necessarily want to sit in front of my PC - which is my source for the desktop DAP - with IEMs. Might just be a nice option once it gets hot again. And my Zen DAC is too hissy with IEMs to be really fun.

And to get "more tube sound" I should get other tubes?


----------



## DBaldock9

Sebasistan said:


> ...of course. However I got the idea that this needed an XLR-Female cable.
> 
> So, someone further down the thread posted a review where they talk about running IEMs out of this thing. I thought that wasn't possible due to the power levels - especially on the balanced out - being too high and potentially dangerous for IEMs to the point of destroying them. But people use this thing with IEMs as well as full sized cans?
> 
> ...



I've mainly been using my P20 with IEMs and Earbuds - since I've only got one set of Headphones with a Balanced connector (I modified my Beyerdynamic DT-831 Headphones, replacing the 3.5mm TRS with a 2.5mm TRRS plug).


----------



## jenkinsontherun (Nov 3, 2020)

Tried the Russian 6N3P tubes that were recommended, and one more opinion goes for these tubes.

I'll elaborate to why they are better than the stock.

The stock tubes have a severe dip in the lower treble area.  This creates an addicting, tube effect.  If it not for its flaw, I would choose it over the Russian tubes.  However, the major, glaring flaw is that it has a treble spike in the mid-treble area.  You will perceive cymbal hits as unnatural, to put it simply.

The Russian tubes are a balance between tubey sound and detail.  The very clear advantage it has over stock is more detail.  Yet, you get to keep that tube sound, which I interpret through my headphones as a softer treble area, which is very nice as my headphones are bright.

If you want absolute tube sound, even if it costs an unnatural treble spike, and even loss in detail, then go for stock.  But Russian tubes are more robust sound, better separation, etc., ie. better all-rounder and 90% of people will like better, including myself by a large margin.

Side note: they took a little over 2 weeks to arrive.


----------



## Onik (Nov 26, 2020)

DBaldock9 said:


> I hadn't heard about the Douk Audio HiFi SA200 (Dual Discrete Class A Op-Amp) until you mentioned it - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Douk-Audio...p-Module-Replace-MUSES02-SS3602-/273892617949
> It does look interesting, and well made, from the photos on the eBay site.
> The SA200 ($82) is about the same price as the Sparkos SS3602 ($83), and more expensive than the Burson V6 (Classic or Vivid) ($75).
> Currently, my favorite op-amps are - Sparkos SS3602, Dual OPA627AU on DIP-8 adapter, Burson V6, OPA1622 on DIP-8 adapter.



did you try to fit 4 Sparkos SS3602 inside P20? im thinking to desolder the stock ic op amps they sounds trash, swapped the stock tubes with some GE Jan 5670 also upgraded the PSU with 12/6A now it sounds a bit better than before.


----------



## DBaldock9

Onik said:


> did you try to fit 4 Sparkos SS3602 inside P20? im thinking to desolder the stock ic op amps they sounds trash, swapped the stock tubes with some GE Jan 5670 also upgraded the PSU with 12/6A now it sounds a bit better than before.



I don't currently have 4 of the SS3602 op-amps, but I've just ordered another pair (taking advantage of the Sparkos 25% Holiday Sale). 
. 
Since the sockets are so close together, here's a couple of photos, showing the stack of two empty sockets that can raise every other op-amp, so they fit. 
. 


. 
.


----------



## Onik

DBaldock9 said:


> I don't currently have 4 of the SS3602 op-amps, but I've just ordered another pair (taking advantage of the Sparkos 25% Holiday Sale).
> .
> Since the sockets are so close together, here's a couple of photos, showing the stack of two empty sockets that can raise every other op-amp, so they fit.
> .
> ...



Great I have 4 SS3602 I tried them on many amps bursons play-playmate-conductor C3 ref but I had hard time fitting them inside dip-8 sockets because their legs aren't thick enough like bursons v5/v6. but somehow I found the correct sockets now it fits tight, I will solder these sockets and upload my pictures as well.


----------



## DBaldock9

Onik said:


> Great I have 4 SS3602 I tried them on many amps bursons play-playmate-conductor C3 ref but I had hard time fitting them inside dip-8 sockets because their legs aren't thick enough like bursons v5/v6. but somehow I found the correct sockets now it fits tight, I will solder these sockets and upload my pictures as well.



One thing to NOTE:  There's a low level oscillation / noise, probably due to the extra sockets - and the op-amps get pretty hot.


----------



## Onik (Nov 27, 2020)

DBaldock9 said:


> One thing to NOTE:  There's a low level oscillation / noise, probably due to the extra sockets - and the op-amps get pretty hot.





I bought these sockets because these are the only ones thats compatible with SS3602S skinny legs. I don't think oscillation is caused by your extra sockets it might be something else, double check that all your pins are soldered 100% with no cold joints.

do you think I can use some thermal pads on top of SS3602 to reduce the heat?


----------



## Onik (Nov 30, 2020)

Socket installed but SS3602 making radio tuning noise just after I turn on p20 on, V6 Opa works flawlessly only noticed a bit hiss when turn on but after awhile its gone and the size! which is too tall to fit inside the case, might drill hole later when I get enough energy.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Nov 30, 2020)

Onik said:


> Socket installed but SS3602 making radio tuning noise just after I turn on p20 on, V6 Opa works flawlessly only noticed a bit hiss when turn on but after awhile its gone and the size! which is too tall to fit inside the case, might drill hole later when I get enough energy.



*EDIT:*  The RF sounds that we're hearing from the Sparkos SS3602 op-amps, is likely due to them picking up the noise of the high frequency switching power supplies, which convert the +12VDC input supply to the bipolar higher voltages used by the op-amps and tubes.

The Burson V6 op-amps are only rated at ±16.5VDC, and not the ±18VDC supplied by the Loxjie P20.


----------



## Onik

DBaldock9 said:


> The RF sounds that we're hearing from the Sparkos SS3602 op-amps, is likely due to them picking up the noise of the high frequency switching power supplies, which convert the +12VDC input supply to the bipolar higher voltages used by the op-amps and tubes.



This is so weird why sparkos didn't mention this on ther website? I didn't experience any RF noise issues when using these opas on any other amps I have. Now I don't have any SS3602 alternative, the v5i I sold recently, and now they are hard to find for cheap price. Can you recommend me any good sounding op amps that pairs well with HD650?


----------



## Iightning (Dec 22, 2020)

I just received these and have been listening to them for the past 10 hours. (lazy Sunday)

Running them off single ended on my HD580 & HD600.

I have very mixed feelings about the Loxjie P20 so far.

The resolution is overall pretty mediocre, there seems to be slight veil that's bothering me quite a bit, I can't quite seem to put my finger on it. Honestly the whole presentation sounds a bit uneven, it makes me HD580/600 sound like a U shaped headphones which is totally opposite of the Sennheisers... Overall so far I hear, Slight bass increase (not in a good way, sounds wooly) subdued mids, treble ever so slightly pushed forward, sounds pretty much a bit warmer, soundstage increase in size but imaging is ever so slightly more fuzzier.

I hate to use this analogy, but if I were in a concert, something like a Little Dot MK2 or even a Schiit Magni3/Heresy would put me in the first row, whereas the P20 would put me 3-4 rows back.

I do find some positive attributes about it though. Dynamics are actually pretty good for a $99 amp. It's pretty engaging and has nice tone. It's sleek looking and built very well for it's price. It just has poor resolution capabilities and lots of lost detail when in comparison to the amps I listed above in the analogy.

In fact, this unit reminds me somewhat of the Valhalla 2 in a sense that it doesn't sound very tubey, it sounds like it's trying too hard to be a solid state.

I would say hard pass on this amp, something about the sound is bothering me alot (most likely the veil which is annoying me the more I listen to it), I can't recommend it unless you'd like to take your chances modding it whether that's tube rolling, changing the power supply, etc.

EDIT: I am in fact using the stock tubes/stock power/SE, so my impressions may vary from yours. Personally I'm going to give this unit a few more days and if my thoughts stick then I'll probably return it.


----------



## Mellowship

Iightning said:


> I just received these and have been listening to them for the past 10 hours. (lazy Sunday)
> 
> Running them off single ended on my HD580 & HD600.
> 
> ...


It is in their full balanced mode they really excel. In single ended mode, there are better options in their price range.


----------



## Iightning

Mellowship said:


> It is in their full balanced mode they really excel. In single ended mode, there are better options in their price range.



In some other forums, some users report even with having a better power supply/tubes/balanced output, they still had the same issues that I had it with (glare in treble, veiled lows/mids/treble, and ended up returning them. At this point, it would cost at least $150 for all the upgrades, I'd rather take the Little Dot 1+ over this. I even compared it to Fosi Audio P2 which is a $50 hybrid tube amp which is half the price and in my opinion sounded much better than the Loxjie P20.


----------



## Onik

video for non german speakers who are rolling op amps on p20: ""


----------



## JazzArtist123 (Jan 16, 2021)

Figured I’d post my thoughts on this Loxjie P20 amp since I’ve been using it for about half a year now. IMO, this little amp is only worth it if most of your headphones can use a balanced connector (because the single-ended output is quite noisy) and if your DAC has balanced outputs it can connect to this amp’s balanced inputs. Using the RCA inputs with the balanced headphone output on this amp is still good, but balanced in + balanced out is the way to go with this amp.

As is, I think it just sounds ok; it needs some upgrades to sound great. The first upgrade is the power supply, I bought the Jameco Reliapro KPL-060F power supply along with a Tripp Lite P007-006 Power Cord, 14AWG. Next, I had some Dim It Light Dimming Sheets (basically static cling tint film) lying around so I cut a part of that to cover up the ridiculously bright blue LED screen - much better with the dimming sheet applied. Third, I got some 9-pin tube socket savers, which accomplished several things at once: 1) it raised up the tubes so they could more efficiently dissipate heat and the amp wouldn’t get so hot, 2) it covered up most of the blue LEDs coming from inside the amp, and 3) it allowed me to use shorter tubes if I wanted.

I tried the 6N3P-E tubes, which instantly sounded better than the stock tubes. I also tried the JAN-5670W GE tubes, but I liked the 6N3P-E tubes better. I lastly tried the GE 5670 5 Star tubes and liked them the best. I have not tried the 6N3P-DR tubes, maybe at some point in the future, I will try them.

I’ll note three of the headphones I’ve used this amp with (@dimoniet79 this might answer your question): The Sennheiser HD600, the AKG K712 Pro, and the Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohm. I’ve modified all three of those headphones to run balanced and this little amp has no problem powering any of those three headphones. The DT880 600 ohm takes the most power, but it is only powered enough by the balanced output, not on the single-ended output. The HD600 and AKG K712 Pro can be powered just fine by this amp’s single-ended output, but as I said earlier, the balanced output is really what you want to be using on this amp because its noise floor is way lower than that of the single-ended output.

With all these upgrades (including at least the JAN-5670W GE tubes), if I’m using the balanced in + balanced out configuration on this amp, I enjoy listening to this Loxjie P20 more than my THX AAA 789 (my DAC being the Topping DX7s). If I ever must use the RCA inputs on the amp (my DAC being the Sennheiser GSX 1000), then it’s a very close call between the Loxjie P20 and the THX AAA 789, but I must give the edge to the THX in this case. If I must use the single-ended output on the amp, then the THX AAA 789 for sure sounds better than this Loxjie P20. Hope this helps future readers trying to decide what amp to buy.


----------



## Sebasistan

I can go next. 

I had my P20 since October. It's running off of the balanced out of my ifi ZEN DAC, and I got an XLR-> 4.4mm balanced adapter for my headphones.
It's my first amp, so I lack comparisons to other, similar setups. Out of the box it was an improvement on the ZEN DAC alone. I did get a matched set of 6N3P 2C51 tubes to replace the stock ones which people on here said would improve the sound. After running with those for a bit I ended up going back to the stock tubes. I prefer that sound over the others. 

I am mainly using the P20 with the Takstar 82 Pro which match pretty well. Generally to me the P20 sounds pretty good with all my headphones. The 82 Pro sound pretty amazing to begin with, and even better off of the tubes. I guess the biggest improvement between my Shanling M6 and the P20 happens with my Meze 99 Neo though. They sound pretty good off of the DAP, but pair really well with the P20. 

I'm not sure if I want to keep fiddling with this. I like the tube sound of the stock tubes over the more analytical 6N3Ps. If any of y'all can recommend a set of tubes that sounds better while also sounding "tube-y", I might reconsider. But overall I'm fairly happy with my setup now. It's not much but it's honest work - I mean it's nothing super fancy, but to my ears / budget / sensibilities it's kinda endgame. As in, I know there's better gear, but at this point, the stuff I have is already so good that to get marked improvements to the sound would require exorbitantly higher expenditures, i.e. diminishing returns.


----------



## Basick

I'm getting a P20 soon and I've ordered 4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm cable for balanced output to my HE-4XX. Question is, since I do not have a DAC, is it worth buying a 2x XLR to TRS (3.5mm) that plugs the amp to my PC's audioport? Or would a TRS to RCA suffice?

Thank you!


----------



## SoLame (Jan 24, 2021)

Basick said:


> I'm getting a P20 soon and I've ordered 4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm cable for balanced output to my HE-4XX. Question is, since I do not have a DAC, is it worth buying a 2x XLR to TRS (3.5mm) that plugs the amp to my PC's audioport? Or would a TRS to RCA suffice?
> 
> Thank you!


IMHO, since you don't have a source (DAC, comp, etc.) that can feed balanced signal to the P20, you gain nothing, _at this moment, _from spending money on those 'balanced' cables.


----------



## Basick

SoLame said:


> IMHO, since you don't have a source (DAC, comp, etc.) that can feed balanced signal to the P20, you gain nothing, _at this moment, _from spending money on those 'balanced' cables.


So even the XLR cable feeding into my headphones won't do anything since I don't have a DAC?


----------



## DBaldock9

SoLame said:


> IMHO, since you don't have a source (DAC, comp, etc.) that can feed balanced signal to the P20, you gain nothing, _at this moment, _from spending money on those 'balanced' cables.



The P20 does have a phase splitter on the input - so it can take either Single-Ended (RCA) or Balanced (2x 3-Pn XLR) Inputs, and drive headphones on the Single-Ended (1/4") or Balanced (4-Pin XLR) Outputs.


----------



## Basick

DBaldock9 said:


> The P20 does have a phase splitter on the input - so it can take either Single-Ended (RCA) or Balanced (2x 3-Pn XLR) Inputs, and drive headphones on the Single-Ended (1/4") or Balanced (4-Pin XLR) Outputs.


So does this mean I can still reap the benefits of a "fully balanced" setup with what I have? (4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm output to headphones, and TRS (3.5mm) to 2x 3pin XLR input from my computer audio port)


----------



## JazzArtist123 (Jan 24, 2021)

@Basick, while the TRS (3.5mm) to 2x 3pin XLR cable should work for providing an input to the Loxjie P20, I do not know if it will provide benefits over just getting a 3.5mm to 2x RCA cable as you will not be benefiting from common-mode rejection (you could buy both and see if one clearly sounds better than the other, but I'll leave that up to you).

Also, it's unclear to me what the 4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm cable is doing (why is it going to two 3.5mm female plugs?  Are these wired for standard 3.5mm headphones, or is this creating the obscure 3.5mm balanced connection?  If it's the balanced 3.5mm connection, I am not sure if this will work on your HE-4XX).

Can you provide more details on what 4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm cable you're looking at?


----------



## JazzArtist123

@Basick, if you were to buy, say the "Geekria Apollo 4.4mm Male to 3.5mm Female" (which is unbalanced, or standard, 3.5mm Female, according to reviewers on Amazon) along with the "4 Pin XLR to 4.4mm Female Balanced 5 Pole Silver Plated Audio Headphone Adapter Cable 20CM", that would most likely work better with your HE-4XX.  However, please read below:

Is there anyone else who has tried something like this?  I'm only speaking from theory, not from experience.  I don't know if there are any electronics that would short inside the amp if you used this type of connection on the balanced headphone output of the Loxjie P20.  Does anyone know more about the circuitry inside this amp who could speak to this?


----------



## Basick

JazzArtist123 said:


> @Basick, while the TRS (3.5mm) to 2x 3pin XLR cable should work for providing an input to the Loxjie P20, I do not know if it will provide benefits over just getting a 3.5mm to 2x RCA cable as you will not be benefiting from common-mode rejection (you could buy both and see if one clearly sounds better than the other, but I'll leave that up to you).
> 
> Also, it's unclear to me what the 4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm cable is doing (why is it going to two 3.5mm female plugs?  Are these wired for standard 3.5mm headphones, or is this creating the obscure 3.5mm balanced connection?  If it's the balanced 3.5mm connection, I am not sure if this will work on your HE-4XX).
> 
> Can you provide more details on what 4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm cable you're looking at?


https://m.aliexpress.com/item/10050...tedetail&spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.40694c4dvBfXJZ

I bought these (the two 3.5mm will be plugging directly into the headphones)


----------



## DBaldock9

It is OK to have a Single-Ended Output drive a Balanced Input - but you don't get the "induced noise" reduction that Balanced Out to Balanced In provides.  This doesn't mean that your system _will_ be noisier, just that it _could_ be noisier.

It's usually NOT OK to have a Balanced Output drive a Single-Ended Input - because the Balanced (L-) & (R-) signals are separate amplifier channels, but the Single-Ended Input has a common L & R GND - and you will generally damage the amplifiers when shorting (L-) to (R-).


----------



## Basick

DBaldock9 said:


> It is OK to have a Single-Ended Output drive a Balanced Input - but you don't get the "induced noise" reduction that Balanced Out to Balanced In provides.  This doesn't mean that your system _will_ be noisier, just that it _could_ be noisier.
> 
> It's usually NOT OK to have a Balanced Output drive a Single-Ended Input - because the Balanced (L-) & (R-) signals are separate amplifier channels, but the Single-Ended Input has a common L & R GND - and you will generally damage the amplifiers when shorting (L-) to (R-).


So what you're saying is that since I'm driving a balanced output (4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm) that I should also run the 2x 3pin XLR to TRS cable for the input from my computer to the amp


----------



## DBaldock9

Basick said:


> So what you're saying is that since I'm driving a balanced output (4pin XLR to 2x 3.5mm) that I should also run the 2x 3pin XLR to TRS cable for the input from my computer to the amp



No, not necessarily.  If your audio signal, using the Single-Ended Input on the P20, doesn't have background noise - everything is OK.
If you do hear audible noise when using the Single-Ended Input, then try getting a device (PC sound card, or external DAC) with a Balanced Output to feed the Balanced Input.


----------



## Basick

Seeing as though I will have to buy either cable regardless (the TRS to XLR or the TRS to RCA), which would be a more appropriate choice for me? 

If I'm understanding it correctly, you're suggesting the TRS to RCA first and if I hear no noise, then all is well. However, if I do hear noise then buying an external DAC with a balanced feed into the amp and computer would solve the noise issue.


----------



## JazzArtist123

Basick said:


> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/10050...tedetail&spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.40694c4dvBfXJZ
> 
> I bought these (the two 3.5mm will be plugging directly into the headphones)



That should work great!  To supplement what @DBaldock9 said, your computer is providing a single-ended output, which should be ok for going to the balanced input on the Loxjie P20.  This is independent of which headphone output is being used on the Loxjie P20.  I know, keeping track of which inputs/outputs are being discussed can be hard to follow haha.


----------



## Basick

JazzArtist123 said:


> That should work great!  To supplement what @DBaldock9 said, your computer is providing a single-ended output, which should be ok for going to the balanced input on the Loxjie P20.  This is independent of which headphone output is being used on the Loxjie P20.  I know, keeping track of which inputs/outputs are being discussed can be hard to follow haha.


Hahaha totally! I'm extremely new to this and I appreciate all the help.


----------



## Basick

JazzArtist123 said:


> That should work great!  To supplement what @DBaldock9 said, your computer is providing a single-ended output, which should be ok for going to the balanced input on the Loxjie P20.  This is independent of which headphone output is being used on the Loxjie P20.  I know, keeping track of which inputs/outputs are being discussed can be hard to follow haha.


So if you had to choose between the TRS to RCA or TRS to XLR from my computer to the amp, which one would you choose?


----------



## SoLame

Basick said:


> So if you had to choose between the TRS to RCA or TRS to XLR from my computer to the amp, which one would you choose?


If I were you, I'd choose RCA.


----------



## JazzArtist123

Basick said:


> if you had to choose between the TRS to RCA or TRS to XLR from my computer to the amp, which one would you choose?



@Basick, well, both end up forming an unbalanced connection, and because of that I would typically get TRS to RCA, but with the Loxjie P20 I know that the balanced input sounds better than the unbalanced input AND I do not know if it is because of the balanced configuration, or if it is because the circuitry internal to the amp is built better in general for its balanced side.  For the Loxjie P20, if I didn't have a balanced DAC, I would go for the TRS to XLR since it has the possibility of using better circuitry inside the Loxjie P20.  I know that with Blue Jeans Cable's "BJC MSA-1 Miniature Stereo Audio Cable" (located here:  https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/MSA1.htm ) you can specify a 1/8 TRS Male to 2 X XLR Male.  They are expensive, and by no means do you have to get that cable, but if another place would charge you more money for the same type of cable, the BJC may be a better option.

@SoLame, could you let us know why you'd choose RCA?  I'm curious.


----------



## Basick

JazzArtist123 said:


> @Basick, well, both end up forming an unbalanced connection, and because of that I would typically get TRS to RCA, but with the Loxjie P20 I know that the balanced input sounds better than the unbalanced input AND I do not know if it is because of the balanced configuration, or if it is because the circuitry internal to the amp is built better in general for its balanced side.  For the Loxjie P20, if I didn't have a balanced DAC, I would go for the TRS to XLR since it has the possibility of using better circuitry inside the Loxjie P20.  I know that with Blue Jeans Cable's "BJC MSA-1 Miniature Stereo Audio Cable" (located here:  https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/MSA1.htm ) you can specify a 1/8 TRS Male to 2 X XLR Male.  They are expensive, and by no means do you have to get that cable, but if another place would charge you more money for the same type of cable, the BJC may be a better option.
> 
> @SoLame, could you let us know why you'd choose RCA?  I'm curious.


I've had this sitting in my shopping cart
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07K59J42N/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A37ZMG0J9UK5U5&psc=1

wouldn't this work?


----------



## JazzArtist123

Basick said:


> https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07K59J42N/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A37ZMG0J9UK5U5&psc=1
> 
> wouldn't this work?



Yes, that would work just fine!


----------



## Basick

JazzArtist123 said:


> @SoLame, could you let us know why you'd choose RCA?  I'm curious.


I too would love to know why


----------



## SoLame (Jan 24, 2021)

JazzArtist123 said:


> ...
> @SoLame, could you let us know why you'd choose RCA?  I'm curious.





Basick said:


> I too would love to know why


Simply because I've tried both ways - 3.5mm (SE) output (from computer/DAP) into RCA and XLR on P20, and I didn't hear any difference in sound. Once I started using balanced output from my DAP/DAC...sending balanced signal into XLR on P20, I hear difference. YMMV, of course.


----------



## Basick (Jan 25, 2021)

Anyone recommend a good budget dac that can feed this amp a balanced input?
I'm looking at this one at the moment from DROP

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08JH7VP2Q/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1

With a pair of these cables

https://www.amazon.ca/Cable-Matters...ale+to+xlr+female&qid=1611570538&sr=8-10&th=1


----------



## Arum16

Basick said:


> Anyone recommend a good budget dac that can feed this amp a balanced input?
> I'm looking at this one at the moment from DROP
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08JH7VP2Q/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1
> ...



Connection wise, both look good.
I'm curious about that DAC from DROP (former MassDrop). I've got a SMSL SU-8 which is quoted on that same site, at doubled the price.


----------



## Sebasistan

Basick said:


> Anyone recommend a good budget dac that can feed this amp a balanced input?
> I'm looking at this one at the moment from DROP
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08JH7VP2Q/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1
> ...



I'm feeding my P20 with this baby. For some reason it's not showing up on Amazon Canada though... https://www.amazon.com/iFi-Zen-DAC-Converter-Unbalanced/dp/B07YZK5MDS


----------



## pankar0

Hello guys I thinking to change the power supply to my loxjie, any good recommendation in a fairly price to improve the sound...??
I m leaving in Europe so I need a 230v


----------



## Mellowship

Basick said:


> Anyone recommend a good budget dac that can feed this amp a balanced input?
> I'm looking at this one at the moment from DROP
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08JH7VP2Q/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1
> ...


I am using the SMSL M500 with fine results!


----------



## Mellowship

pankar0 said:


> Hello guys I thinking to change the power supply to my loxjie, any good recommendation in a fairly price to improve the sound...??
> I m leaving in Europe so I need a 230v


This also interests me.
The other day I was looking at an old Toshiba laptop ps and thinking if 19v 3.6a is too much for the p20... Is it?


----------



## Arum16

pankar0 said:


> Hello guys I thinking to change the power supply to my loxjie, any good recommendation in a fairly price to improve the sound...??
> I m leaving in Europe so I need a 230v


I just replaced the original Loxjie PSU, with a 12V - 6A one, plus a plug adaptor for the DC conector/plug. Got my PSU from an electronics/hardware shop, and it delivers, no problems what so ever.


----------



## JazzArtist123 (Jan 25, 2021)

Basick said:


> Anyone recommend a good budget dac that can feed this amp a balanced input?



As @Sebasistan pointed to, there is the iFi Zen DAC, where you would need a 4.4mm to Dual XLR cable.  There is also the Motu M2 (which has similar specs to the Motu M4).  If you went with the Motu M2/M4, you would need two 1/4 Inch TRS to XLR Male Balanced Signal Interconnect Cables.  You would be paying more for the Motu M2 than the DROP Grace Design Standard DAC Balanced you already linked to, but if you needed to add a Microphone to your setup later for any reason you could.  You can see on AudioScienceReview how the iFi Zen DAC, the DROP Grace DAC, and the Motu M4 measured, so you can use all that information to help you decide what to get.

I'm afraid the other balanced (Topping) DACs I would recommend are more expensive, so that won't help you much.  Let us know which one you eventually decide on!

Update:  I also just came across the SONCOZ LA-QXD1 on AudioScienceReview.  More expensive than the Motu M2, but also measures better.  So once again, it'll be up to you to decide on a money/performance ratio.  Cheers!


----------



## Basick

I think I'll probably go with the DROP grace since it is recommended by audiosciencereview and is a good budget option thats balanced.
I'll pull the trigger nearing when my amp arrives


----------



## iFi audio

JazzArtist123 said:


> there is the iFi Zen DAC, where you would need a 4.4mm to Dual XLR cable.



That's correct, yes.


----------



## Telin (Jan 26, 2021)

Basick said:


> I think I'll probably go with the DROP grace since it is recommended by audiosciencereview and is a good budget option thats balanced.
> I'll pull the trigger nearing when my amp arrives


I'm going to say something that is most likely going to upset most people around here but I'm going to say it anyway..

I don't really like ASR that much as ASR reviews are not much more then a bunch of measurements and then recommend or not recommend based on those measurements.
The reviews that I read on ASR barely, if at all, touch on the subject of how something actually sounds. Measurements alone don't say much about how it actually sounds. You buy a DAC or AMP to listen to actual music, not to connect to a tone generator and feed it a 1Khz tone all day.
The 99 dollar Schiit Modi3+ measures better then the 2500 dollar Schiit Yggdrasil yet everyone agrees that the Yggdrasil sounds better.

Don't get me wrong measurements do have a place with AMP / DAC reviews but it shouldn't be the only thing, there also should be a big(ger) part about how something actually sounds. That part is just completely missing from the ASR reviews and for me the main reason to look elswhere for reviews of products I'm intrested in.


----------



## iFi audio

Telin said:


> Measurements alone don't say much about how it actually sounds.



Many people pay attention to measurements as a guide how well a given product is engineered, and audio designers rely on measurements for the same reason. It's all good.


----------



## Telin

iFi audio said:


> Many people pay attention to measurements as a guide how well a given product is engineered, and audio designers rely on measurements for the same reason. It's all good.


Jason Stoddard mentioned in a Q&A that he can design someting in less then a day that measures near perfect but will sound absolutely horrible.
Again I don't say that measurements don't have any value. I just have problems with ASR putting some graphs and measurements underneath each other and label product X good or bad as it measures 1dB or 0.0002% lower/higher then product Y and call that a "review". How you experience music is more then some measurements.


----------



## iFi audio

Telin said:


> Jason Stoddard mentioned in a Q&A that he can design someting in less then a day that measures near perfect but will sound absolutely horrible.
> Again I don't say that measurements don't have any value. I just have problems with ASR putting some graphs and measurements underneath each other and label product X good or bad as it measures 1dB or 0.0002% lower/higher then product Y and call that a "review". How you experience music is more then some measurements.



ASR users are as focused on measurements as  folks here on HF are into sound performance. Variety is the spice of life as they say, there's plenty of audio content for everyone 

And lastly, how a given product is measured is the most important thing. Measurements can be manipulated to achieve desirable results, which is why I suggest taking them with caution just as everything else out there on the web.


----------



## WaveTheory

iFi audio said:


> Many people pay attention to measurements as a guide how well a given product is engineered, and audio designers rely on measurements for the same reason. It's all good.



There's some circular reasoning. Engineering excellence is determined by how well the product/part/design solves the problem or does the job that the design was intended to solve/do in the first place. If the intent of an amp or dac is to have vanishing distortion and drive up SINAD scores, then sure, distortion and SINAD measurements will be indicators of engineering excellence. But if the goal of an amp or dac is hi-fidelity electronic reproduction of music, then such measurements will only give tiny insights into how well the product is engineered, and even then they can only indicate if there is something _wrong _with the design. 

An analogy: the Golden Gate Bridge. That bridge is an example of engineering excellence because it is really good at doing what it was designed to do - provide a means to transport people and vehicles across the San Francisco Bay quickly and safely for many, many years. It also does so while being aesthetically appealing to many. If we only focused on the length and height of the bridge, we would have no idea how well it does that job. However, if the length of the bridge was less than the width of the bay it's spanning, then we would know there is a problem with the engineering.

IMO, ASR is cheapening the meanings of both of the terms 'science' and 'engineering' and I would really like to see that stop.


----------



## iFi audio (Jan 26, 2021)

WaveTheory said:


> such measurements will only give tiny insights into how well the product is engineered, and even then they can only indicate if there is something _wrong _with the design.



Exactly. Although measurements are important for many reasons and, as you've said it, are extremely useful indicators if something's wrong, they're always just a part of a far bigger and more meningful whole. We could endlessly discuss full-range transducers, noisy DHTs, amps with no feedback and other types that often measure so-so yet sound great


----------



## DenverW (Jan 28, 2021)

Has anyone had experience with 12au7 tubes with this amp?  Not because they're an affordable alternative, but because I have quite a few already and wondered if there is any improvement rolling them and if I should bother getting an adapter.  Thanks!

Edit:  Surprisingly good out of the box.  Running balanced from Drop X Grace Balanced SDAC.  Great clarity and separation, and this is with stock tubes and power cord.  Excited to see what a couple inexpensive changes can do.  Tested with E-mu teak balanced and unbalanced cables, as well as ZMF Auteur.


----------



## arielext

Are 12au7 compatible with the p20?!


----------



## Basick

Sebasistan said:


> I'm feeding my P20 with this baby. For some reason it's not showing up on Amazon Canada though... https://www.amazon.com/iFi-Zen-DAC-Converter-Unbalanced/dp/B07YZK5MDS


I see it here, being sold for 200$ CAD
https://www.amazon.ca/iFi-ZEN-DAC-Audio-Zen-DAC/dp/B07YZK5MDS

How's it compare to the DROP GRACE balanced?


----------



## DenverW

arielext said:


> Are 12au7 compatible with the p20?!



There was a sale posting in the forums that included adapters, so I thought I’d ask.


----------



## arielext

DenverW said:


> There was a sale posting in the forums that included adapters, so I thought I’d ask.


Did some quick bing-ing:  DIY Audio Projects Forum • 6n3p to 12au7 


> The 6NP3/2C51 is a different pinout from the 12AU7 and has about twice the gain of the 12AU7. When making this kind of change you need to articulate what you are trying to do.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Feb 4, 2021)

JazzArtist123 said:


> Figured I’d post my thoughts on this Loxjie P20 amp since I’ve been using it for about half a year now. IMO, this little amp is only worth it if most of your headphones can use a balanced connector (because the single-ended output is quite noisy) and if your DAC has balanced outputs it can connect to this amp’s balanced inputs. Using the RCA inputs with the balanced headphone output on this amp is still good, but balanced in + balanced out is the way to go with this amp.
> 
> As is, I think it just sounds ok; it needs some upgrades to sound great. The first upgrade is the power supply, I bought the Jameco Reliapro KPL-060F power supply along with a Tripp Lite P007-006 Power Cord, 14AWG. Next, I had some Dim It Light Dimming Sheets (basically static cling tint film) lying around so I cut a part of that to cover up the ridiculously bright blue LED screen - much better with the dimming sheet applied. Third, I got some 9-pin tube socket savers, which accomplished several things at once: 1) it raised up the tubes so they could more efficiently dissipate heat and the amp wouldn’t get so hot, 2) it covered up most of the blue LEDs coming from inside the amp, and 3) it allowed me to use shorter tubes if I wanted.
> 
> ...



Since I had cut my P20's case in half - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lox...nformation-on-this-thing.903733/post-15188418
- it's fairly easy to take the top off, for better cooling.  But, in order to leave the case together, adding some tube socket savers sounded like a good idea.
I searched around some, and found these Cary Gold 9-Pin Bakelite Tube Sockets - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KOTBMMM/
They're tall enough that their top is flush with the top of the case.
After using my P20 for several hours last night, with the tubes sitting up above the case, it was much cooler than previously, when the tubes were down inside it.
.
I've done other mods, which are shown in various posts here - installed sockets for the op-amps, added additional bypass capacitors for the op-amp sockets' V+ & V- pins, replaced the power supply with a 12V @ 3A linear, removed the series resistors for the LEDs under the tube sockets, added longer ribbon cables to the front panel.
.
The one mod that has thwarted me, is reducing the op-amp supply voltage from ±18VDC to ±15VDC, or lower (to allow for more varied op-amp rolling).  That's because they're apparently producing the ±18VDC with the custom wound transformer that's back near the DC input.  There aren't any voltage regulator chips being used on the board to output the ±18VDC, where the voltage can be easily adjusted with external resistor value changes.


----------



## JazzArtist123

DBaldock9 said:


> The one mod that has thwarted me, is reducing the op-amp supply voltage from ±18VDC to ±15VDC, or lower (to allow for more varied op-amp rolling).



I'm not sure exactly where the circuit components are on the board and how much room there is but would adding something like these Linear Voltage Regulator IC chips enable you to obtain ±12 VDC?

+18 VDC to +12 VDC:  https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/texas-instruments/LM340T-12-NOPB/6233

-18 VDC to -12 VDC:  https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/texas-instruments/LM7912CT-NOPB/6355

The only thing I don't know is how much current you need them rated for.  Those ones are rated for 1.5 A.

Also, @DBaldock9, are you able to say how much better the Pyramid 5 Amp Linear Regulated Power Supply would sound over the Jameco 5 Amp Switching power supply?  Do you think the linear power supply would help reduce the overall noise on the single-ended output?


----------



## DBaldock9

JazzArtist123 said:


> I'm not sure exactly where the circuit components are on the board and how much room there is but would adding something like these Linear Voltage Regulator IC chips enable you to obtain ±12 VDC?
> 
> +18 VDC to +12 VDC:  https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/texas-instruments/LM340T-12-NOPB/6233
> 
> ...



I had thought about adding additional regulators, when I saw that there aren't any for the ±18VDC rails - but that would mean isolating the V+ & V- pins on each of the four op-amp sockets, and changing how I've got all of the additional bypass capacitors installed (they're currently soldered to the V+ & V- pins on the back of the circuit board).
.
Since the +12VDC input goes directly into a switching power supply in the P20 (to create all of the needed voltage rails), it's doubtful that there's any audio performance difference between using a good linear or switcher supply.  I suppose it's possible that if a switcher supply with exactly the same frequency as the internal switcher is used, they might interact with each other.


----------



## arielext

I recently pulled out this amp again, now fed by a RME ADI-2 DAC (balanced) and feeding either a Sash Tres V2 or DCA ether c flow 1.1 (both balanced) and it still holds up. This amp does magic for neutral to light sounding headphones.
I'm using the standard power supply and 6Н3П-ЕВ tubes. Smoothed out highs and a small increase in bass.

In my book this amp is one of the hidden gems.


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

arielext said:


> I recently pulled out this amp again, now fed by a RME ADI-2 DAC (balanced) and feeding either a Sash Tres V2 or DCA ether c flow 1.1 (both balanced) and it still holds up. This amp does magic for neutral to light sounding headphones.
> I'm using the standard power supply and 6Н3П-ЕВ tubes. Smoothed out highs and a small increase in bass.
> 
> In my book this amp is one of the hidden gems.



I agree. I have owned the P20 for a few years now and I really enjoy it fully balanced with my Hifiman HE4XX and Fostex T50RP MK3.   
It is my favorite headphone amplifier in the $100 price range.


----------



## Basick (Feb 15, 2021)

Ok so I've just received my DROP Grace SDAC balanced, and have been trying to run my entire setup through balanced connections with my loxjie amp but I just can't get it to work properly! I have the DAC plugged into my motherboard via the USB that was in the packaging, and balanced XLRs into the balanced outputs on the DAC, then running those into the balanced inputs on the loxjie amp. The only way I get sound coming out of this setup is on "Output 1, and Input 1"

If I run the setup with my balanced output on the amp and a SE input from the computer to the amp straight up its "Output 1, and Input 2"
But even though I am getting sound my Soundblaster X-fi MB3 isn't picking up the DAC as a sound input (see picture below)
I get sound with Output1, and input1 running a fully balanced setup, but the sound isn't what I was expecting, possibly a downgrade from SE straight from the computer to the amp.
I also noticed that I have to raise the volume significantly higher for equal levels of listening when im using this fully balanced setup

Please help!


----------



## Basick (Feb 15, 2021)

Am I supposed to have drivers installed?





I'm thinking the sound just doesn't sound as good because my soundblaster x-fi MB3 isn't being used since it has the "crystallizer, bass boost, equalizer" all on it. 
Now running it straight through my DAC I suppose it doesn't use the software stuff that comes from my motherboard audio such as the Soundblaster X-Fi MB3 or Realtek HD Audio Manager where I could fine-tune my audio to my liking.


----------



## Mellowship

Basick said:


> Am I supposed to have drivers installed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems to be a software problem, indeed. But first try to input your DAC with other thing just to check if the sound is satisfactory. When in full balanced mode and properly fed with a good balanced signal from the DAC, the p20 will sound much louder and much better than in single ended.
After ruling out hardware problems with the DAC and P20, try using the Asio drivers and Foobar2000.


----------



## Basick (Feb 15, 2021)

Am I right in saying that when using an external dac, you are bypassing the onboard audio? Therefore will not be able to use the Realtek HD Audio Manager or the Soundblaster X-Fi MB3?

I keep getting this message pop up everytime:


----------



## DBaldock9

Basick said:


> Ok so I've just received my DROP Grace SDAC balanced, and have been trying to run my entire setup through balanced connections with my loxjie amp but I just can't get it to work properly! I have the DAC plugged into my motherboard via the USB that was in the packaging, and balanced XLRs into the balanced outputs on the DAC, then running those into the balanced inputs on the loxjie amp. The only way I get sound coming out of this setup is on "Output 1, and Input 1"
> 
> If I run the setup with my balanced output on the amp and a SE input from the computer to the amp straight up its "Output 1, and Input 2"
> But even though I am getting sound my Soundblaster X-fi MB3 isn't picking up the DAC as a sound input (see picture below)
> ...



Are you saying that your P20 is working with the settings = Input-2 & Output-1?
According to the P20 Manual that's on the Loxjie website, that should be Balanced Input & Balanced Output.
.


----------



## Basick

DBaldock9 said:


> Are you saying that your P20 is working with the settings = Input-2 & Output-1?
> According to the P20 Manual that's on the Loxjie website, that should be Balanced Input & Balanced Output.
> .


No it works with In1 and Out1 for balanced, I know that the manual says something different. Even looking at the back of the unit, the labelling for the balanced outs are "IN 1 R and IN 1 L" suggesting Input1 for balanced rather than Input2. In comparison, the single ended RCA inputs on the back of the loxjie are labelled "In 2"

I only have the balanced inputs in the loxjie at the moment, and the Out1 and In1 only work to get sound


----------



## Basick

Arum16 said:


> Got it !!!
> Thanks turbomustang84 and Shane D
> 
> The Loxjie P20's way of selecting input/output connections is a bit unphasing.
> ...


It looks like the manual is just wrong, he also had the same issue. So the balanced setup should be In1 and Out1


----------



## joseG86

I really love this amp with 5670W JAN fully balanced, Focal Clear shine with it   Bass becomes something else


----------



## JazzArtist123 (Feb 16, 2021)

@Basick,

You are probably close to getting your new SDAC working correctly.  For example, your DROP Grace SDAC is only going to show up as an output sound device as it does not have any microphone inputs to go back to your computer, so that part is correct.

When you are comparing Balance vs SE inputs to your Loxjie P20, are they both coming from your DROP Grace SDAC, or is the SE input coming from your computer (not through the SDAC)?  If the SE input is coming from your computer (not through the SDAC), then you might check inside your computer's sound level for the DROP Grace SDAC and make sure it is at 100%.  See the below picture for an example of my DX7s:





It sounds like your DROP Grace SDAC probably has its Speaker Level set to around 50 instead of 100 (I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me!).  Are you able to check this?

Also,  





Basick said:


> Am I right in saying that when using an external DAC, you are bypassing the onboard audio?



That should be correct, however, it looks like your Soundblaster X-fi MB3 has an optical output.  Remember the DROP Grace SDAC has a digital coax input, so if you really want to use certain sound effects from your Soundblaster, you might be able to buy a small optical-to-coaxial converter, such as https://www.amazon.com/Optical-Converter-Bi-Directional-Repeater-ROOFULL/dp/B01N32C5GT, and then you could use both the SDAC and your Soundblaster X-fi MB3 software.

Best of luck!


----------



## Basick (Feb 16, 2021)

JazzArtist123 said:


> @Basick,
> 
> You are probably close to getting your new SDAC working correctly.  For example, your DROP Grace SDAC is only going to show up as an output sound device as it does not have any microphone inputs to go back to your computer, so that part is correct.
> 
> ...


Wow thank you for such a detailed response!
Yes, I've tried running the setup single ended both ways, either connected to the DAC or straight into the computer. Only way I get to utilize the soundblaster x-fi is through the connection from the loxjie straight into the computer's 3.5mm rear port.

Also I have the SDAC at 100% in those settings as well, I'm assuming why it has lower volume levels compared to when I plug the amp straight into the computer is that because when im plugged straight into the computer it gets to utilize the soundblaster X-Fi which has an equalizer on it that naturally boosts the volume already because of all the gains I have on it on the sliders.

Now question is, it seems though that the use of these software audio enhancers are not very popular among the audiophile community but even when I run single ended straight into my computer it just sounds so much better to me (because of all the enhancers I have on the software: crystallizer, manual bass adjust, EQ, 7.1 surround), am I just doing an injustice to the sound quality that was meant to be for my headphones by not doing any enhancements on it?

I have downloaded APO EQ and have preset it to oratory's recommendations for my HE-4xx's, its definitely better sounding compared to no EQ but not to the satisfaction that I get when I'm able to utilize my settings from the Soundblaster X-Fi MB3. When I switch back and forth between SE input (utilizing the soundblaster software) and the fully balanced setup (utilizing oratory's APO Eq with Peace) the sound is more muffled (trebles) and just overall doesn't sound higher quality compared to when I'm running SE with the utilization of all my settings in the Soundblaster. I've looked around and I've seen posts about "APO Driver" and all those Dolby Atmos softwares... Are there any unanimously good audio enhancer software that I should look into?

This is what I have on my Soundblaster that makes me prefer going single ended straight into the computer without a DAC:








Edit: After fiddling with Oratory's EQ settings, I think I found the sound I like


----------



## Onik

I noticed when I use the volume all the way to max I hear hum/buzzing noise but when no DAC connected to the inputs its clean black bg why is that?


----------



## JazzArtist123 (Feb 19, 2021)

@Basick,

I'm unfamiliar with the SoundBlaster X-Fi you are using; however, when you say,


Basick said:


> the soundblaster X-Fi which has an equalizer on it that naturally boosts the volume already because of all the gains I have on it


it might help to know that typically when an EQ boosts certain frequencies, there is usually a "Safe Headroom" decrease in volume applied which is just slightly greater than the volume increase of the maximum frequency boost on the EQ.  For example, if I load the HiFiMAN HE 4XX calibration profile in SonarWorks, you can see that the green line is the calibration profile it applies and that the "Safe Headroom" is on and the "Gain" is set to -6.1 dB to account for the 6 dB boosts around 30 Hz and 2 kHz:






This "Safe Headroom" is applied to prevent clipping from happening at the boosted frequencies.  I'm surprised that you are able to boost all the frequencies without getting any clipping, but then again I am unfamiliar with what SoundBlaster X-Fi is doing and it may be perfectly fine.

If you wanted to get a fairer comparison between your computer output and the SDAC output, you might try lowering all the frequency boosts in SoundBlaster X-Fi by 18 dB.  So you'd have -2, 1, 0, -2, -4, 0, 3, 3, 4, 2; and, in theory, your calibration would be the same yet centered around the normal maximum volume.  If the calibration doesn't sound the same, maybe only lower all your settings by 13 dB, that way everything would still be boosted (a little), and try that comparison.

You also asked,


Basick said:


> Are there any unanimously good audio enhancer software that I should look into?



I know SonarWorks, which simply applies an EQ preset to your headphones, lets you listen for a free trial of about 20 days or so, but after that, you have to buy a license, which is $100 unless you wait for a sale.  I bought them because I got tired of trying to EQ all my headphones.  However, if you tried their software and you liked it better than the Oratory EQ settings you already like, then you could simply try to match their EQ setting in APO, but just a warning you could spend a lot of time doing this.  If you're already particularly happy with your setup, I'd say stick with it, no need to spend extra money on more software.


----------



## JazzArtist123

Onik said:


> I noticed when I use the volume all the way to max I hear hum/buzzing noise but when no DAC connected to the inputs its clean black bg why is that?



While listening to the balanced output, I also hear a humming/buzzing noise at max volume when I have the single-ended input selected and it is connected to my DAC.  However, with the balanced input selected, even though it is connected to my DAC, I have a clear black background just the same as when nothing is connected.  I ultimately decided that must be part of the reason why the balanced input sounds better than the single-ended input on the Loxjie P20.  I did find "Real-World Balanced Interfaces and Other-World Myths" by Bill Whitlock which makes it seem like there could be a common-impedance coupling issue on the unbalanced input that causes that noise, but I have no way to prove that.  I wouldn't waste any time trying to solve that as it may be something else with the single-ended input portion of the amp.

For example, while listening to the single-ended output, I hear a lot more humming/buzzing with the single-ended input selected and I also hear humming/buzzing with the balanced input selected.  Not sure I can completely answer your question, but this seems to correlate well to how most people like this amp fully balanced best.


----------



## Jonmakauu

I'm planning to buy a p20, I don't have a balanced dac but I do have a Hiby r3 pro which has a 2.5mm balanced output. Can I connect that to the p20 with a 2.5mm to dual 3 pin xlr? And if that is possible should I turn the volume up fully on my r3 pro?


----------



## JazzArtist123

Jonmakauu said:


> I do have a Hiby r3 pro which has a 2.5mm balanced output. Can I connect that to the p20 with a 2.5mm to dual 3 pin xlr?


Yes and 


Jonmakauu said:


> if that is possible should I turn the volume up fully on my r3 pro?


Yes, maxing out the volume on the r3 pro will minimize any noise the Loxjie P20 will have to amplify.


----------



## Jonmakauu

JazzArtist123 said:


> Yes and
> 
> Yes, maxing out the volume on the r3 pro will minimize any noise the Loxjie P20 will have to amplify.


Thanks! But is it really ok to input a signal that is already amplified to another amplifier? I have read in some places that it might not be good to do such.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Feb 20, 2021)

Jonmakauu said:


> Thanks! But is it really ok to input a signal that is already amplified to another amplifier? I have read in some places that it might not be good to do such.



If you look at the Specs for the Hiby R3 Pro, you'll see that its output voltage is basically what you'd expect as a standard Line Output level - to feed the input of an amp, like the P20.


----------



## dougms3

Looking at pics of the other tubes that I've seen online, it seems like mine are not as bright.

Could there be an issue with mine?

Its the stock tubes, it sounds fine and nothing seems to be wrong otherwise.


----------



## DenverW

dougms3 said:


> Looking at pics of the other tubes that I've seen online, it seems like mine are not as bright.
> 
> Could there be an issue with mine?
> 
> Its the stock tubes, it sounds fine and nothing seems to be wrong otherwise.



If you're not having issues with sound, and the tubes are glowing, then you are fine.  Other peoples pictures could be using different lighting, different tubes, different cameras.  The glow level of different tubes is generally not a great indicator of the tubes quality, unless there is a clear issue between the two sides (for example, one side is not lit).


----------



## joseG86

dougms3 said:


> Looking at pics of the other tubes that I've seen online, it seems like mine are not as bright.
> 
> Could there be an issue with mine?
> 
> Its the stock tubes, it sounds fine and nothing seems to be wrong otherwise.



You're perfectly fine, if they sound good you're OK, turn off the lights for both good sound and visuals


----------



## dougms3

joseG86 said:


> I really love this amp with 5670W JAN fully balanced, Focal Clear shine with it   Bass becomes something else


Please elaborate on this.  All the filthy details please.

Have you rolled any other tubes ?  If so how does it compare to the 5670w?


----------



## joseG86

dougms3 said:


> Please elaborate on this.  All the filthy details please.
> 
> Have you rolled any other tubes ?  If so how does it compare to the 5670w?


With 5670w I instantly felt smaller soundstage, very detailed sound, amazing bass and pleasant tube sound. No dryness


----------



## arielext

Can confirm that Ether C Flow 1.1's for some reason like the p20


----------



## smashey

Considering the p20 as a "fun" second amp, running against a very neutral solid state amp. Headphones currently mid level loads (DT990 250Ohm, HD660S). At its selling price it's hard to go wrong and I'm curious about the various tube options - but I don't want to disappear down a rabbit hole. Would the stock tubes give a fairly typical valve sound?


----------



## Mellowship

smashey said:


> Considering the p20 as a "fun" second amp, running against a very neutral solid state amp. Headphones currently mid level loads (DT990 250Ohm, HD660S). At its selling price it's hard to go wrong and I'm curious about the various tube options - but I don't want to disappear down a rabbit hole. Would the stock tubes give a fairly typical valve sound?


I did not tube roll yet (and I am not sure if I will ever), but many impressions around here are that stock tubes are more "tube-sounding" than some other 3rd party tubes.


----------



## smashey

Thanks - that's what I'd hoped


----------



## Onik

arielext said:


> Can confirm that Ether C Flow 1.1's for some reason like the p20



Does it get loud enough? I'm thinking to get a LCD 2(Bamboo) soon and will try it with p20 but I heard planners needs more power , do you think P20 can power LCD 2?


----------



## Mellowship

Onik said:


> Does it get loud enough? I'm thinking to get a LCD 2(Bamboo) soon and will try it with p20 but I heard planners needs more power , do you think P20 can power LCD 2?


As I said more than once, the P2 can power the AKG K340 in full balanced mode. In the face of that, the list of headphones the P20 cannot power should be minimal.


----------



## arielext

Onik said:


> Does it get loud enough? I'm thinking to get a LCD 2(Bamboo) soon and will try it with p20 but I heard planners needs more power , do you think P20 can power LCD 2?


Oh yes, that's -33 on a scale of -60 to 0. I'm feeding it from a RME ADI-2 DAC using XLR cables. Output of the RME is even set a bit lower then reference to -18 at 1dBu.
Not using stock tubes though, but I don't remember them having an influence on the amplification of the P20.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Wanted to chime in on this thread. 
I bought one of these last summer on here for $80 used. At the time I also has a MCTH, Gilmore lite mk2 and a Liquid Platinum. 
I was really surprised how good the Loxjie was. I thought it was better than the MCTH for sure. 
So after having my GLMK2 and LP cap modded. I thought what the hell I'll send the Loxjie off and get some better caps in it. I know.... I only paid $80 for the amp lol. 

So off went the Loxjie and the MCTH for caps. 

Got them both back and just like the other amps, they both benefited from the upgrade. Still I preferred the Loxjie. The cap mod brought better clarity, resolution, imaging and transparency. Bass sounded tighter and more accurate. 

So then I decided to invest more in the Loxjie lol. I bought some adapters to run my favorite family of tubes. 12au7/12at7. 

I really can't believe how insane this amp is. My Clear pro sound fantastic with it. 
I'm currently using it while my Mjolnir 2 is being modded. 

This amp really changes the game in price to performance ratio. Even in stock form it's really good. With the mods it's ridiculous lol.

$250 total investment in the Loxjie with mods, adapters and tubes and it really punches above the $250 mark. The biggest surprise is how much impact and slam in bass it provides for such a small amp. 

Hopefully they'll come out with a bigger and more powerful version in the future. I'll definitely be buying one lol.


----------



## dougms3

Guidostrunk said:


> Wanted to chime in on this thread.
> I bought one of these last summer on here for $80 used. At the time I also has a MCTH, Gilmore lite mk2 and a Liquid Platinum.
> I was really surprised how good the Loxjie was. I thought it was better than the MCTH for sure.
> So after having my GLMK2 and LP cap modded. I thought what the hell I'll send the Loxjie off and get some better caps in it. I know.... I only paid $80 for the amp lol.
> ...



Who did you send it off to to upgrade the caps?


----------



## Guidostrunk

dougms3 said:


> Who did you send it off to to upgrade the caps?


@ksorota is the mod God 😂. I'm having my 5th amp modded by him right now. Lol.


----------



## Jonmakauu

Guidostrunk said:


> Wanted to chime in on this thread.
> I bought one of these last summer on here for $80 used. At the time I also has a MCTH, Gilmore lite mk2 and a Liquid Platinum.
> I was really surprised how good the Loxjie was. I thought it was better than the MCTH for sure.
> So after having my GLMK2 and LP cap modded. I thought what the hell I'll send the Loxjie off and get some better caps in it. I know.... I only paid $80 for the amp lol.
> ...


What were the replacement caps that were used?


----------



## Guidostrunk

Jonmakauu said:


> What were the replacement caps that were used?


Elna Silmic ii for sure ,and I believe Nichicon where Silmic wasn't available. You can send ksorota a pm to confirm.


----------



## Jonmakauu

Guidostrunk said:


> Elna Silmic ii for sure ,and I believe Nichicon where Silmic wasn't available. You can send ksorota a pm to confirm.


Oh ok, thanks!


----------



## pankar0

Hello guys, any suggestion for the external power supply, I m thinking to buy a new one. 
I m thinking the ifi x power,  it s compatible or I spend money for nothing. 

I don't know which may choose...

Some help please


----------



## smashey

I'm waiting for delivery of my P20 so not speaking from experience in that regard but I've had an ifi x Power supply and can testify it can make a tangible difference with noise sensitive  equipment (I tried this on an iFi signature DAC comparing it with a standard wall wart). However most members are concerned with the current rating of the included Loxjie supply and seem to report benefits in using any suitable 12v supply with a better current rating. If you have anything lying about that's about 3A or more - or could borrow one to try - give that a go and see what you think?


----------



## arielext

Guidostrunk said:


> Wanted to chime in on this thread.
> I bought one of these last summer on here for $80 used. At the time I also has a MCTH, Gilmore lite mk2 and a Liquid Platinum.
> I was really surprised how good the Loxjie was. I thought it was better than the MCTH for sure.
> So after having my GLMK2 and LP cap modded. I thought what the hell I'll send the Loxjie off and get some better caps in it. I know.... I only paid $80 for the amp lol.
> ...


Got a link for those adapters? I have some 12au7's laying around and had no clue they might be useable with this amp ...


----------



## Guidostrunk

arielext said:


> Got a link for those adapters? I have some 12au7's laying around and had no clue they might be useable with this amp ...


This is where I got them.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pc-gold-p...-/201483018835?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


----------



## arielext

I just hooked up this power supply: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B001W3W12E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Works perfect! Did it change the sound much? I have the feeling the bass is a bit more controlled, more comparable to the V200 when I switch back and forth.


----------



## pankar0

arielext said:


> I just hooked up this power supply: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B001W3W12E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> Works perfect! Did it change the sound much? I have the feeling the bass is a bit more controlled, more comparable to the V200 when I switch back and forth.


So the plug is 5.5 × 2.5mm for the Loxjie..??


----------



## arielext

pankar0 said:


> So the plug is 5.5 × 2.5mm for the Loxjie..??


yes, the one I linked fits live a glove.


----------



## pankar0 (Feb 26, 2021)

arielext said:


> yes, the one I linked fits live a glove.


I found this in my country (Greece)..
Says for lcd tv, laptop and other...
You think it s ok..??
Thank you for your help.

https://www.media-ram.gr/περιφερειακά/φόρτιση/τροφοδοτικά/φορτιστές/12-volt/τροφοδοτικό-για-lcd-5.5-x-2.5-60w/?ref=bestprice.gr&__bpgid=emQtMDRXdW5tWixrTCRVeksmMm1Q


----------



## arielext

Be sure that the polarity is correct!
12v and anything above 2a should be more then sufficient


----------



## Basick

Anyone have any experience with these two tubes?
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/6N3P-2C51-3...965875?hash=item3b0a2065f3:g:EYgAAOSwPhdU27jo
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2x-6N3P-DR-...209928?hash=item2637388bc8:g:xoQAAOSwDdxed6Bs

What is the differences between them?


----------



## dougms3

Guidostrunk said:


> @ksorota is the mod God 😂. I'm having my 5th amp modded by him right now. Lol.


I'm sending mine off to him tomorrow for the upgraded caps 



Basick said:


> Anyone have any experience with these two tubes?
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/6N3P-2C51-3...965875?hash=item3b0a2065f3:g:EYgAAOSwPhdU27jo
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2x-6N3P-DR-...209928?hash=item2637388bc8:g:xoQAAOSwDdxed6Bs
> 
> What is the differences between them?



One is 6n3p, the other is 6n3p-dr.  Search this thread, I'm sure I saw reviews on both tubes.   I think there is also the 6n3p-ev version.  I have no idea what the difference is between the 3 but I have my first set (6n3p) coming in soon.


----------



## dougms3

Seems like alot of people in countries with 240v are having issues with the power supply.  

I'm in the US, I haven't had any issues with mine, is that something to keep an eye out for?


----------



## Basick

dougms3 said:


> I'm sending mine off to him tomorrow for the upgraded caps
> 
> 
> 
> One is 6n3p, the other is 6n3p-dr.  Search this thread, I'm sure I saw reviews on both tubes.   I think there is also the 6n3p-ev version.  I have no idea what the difference is between the 3 but I have my first set (6n3p) coming in soon.


I ordered the 6N3P-DR's, seems like there was a general consensus on them


----------



## dougms3

Basick said:


> I ordered the 6N3P-DR's, seems like there was a general consensus on them


I'll probably end up buying it too, I'm impatient and chose the tubes that had the fastest delivery time.


----------



## Onik (Mar 1, 2021)

Guidostrunk said:


> @ksorota is the mod God 😂. I'm having my 5th amp modded by him right now. Lol.


I see no reason to upgrade the caps for p20, if you wanna play with the sound then you need to roll some op amps,I'm upgrading to Burson v5i soon once I'm done soldering few zener diodes to drop the op amps Psu Voltage.


----------



## Guidostrunk

Onik said:


> I see no reason to upgrade the caps for p20, if you wanna play with the sound then you need to roll some op amps,I'm upgrading to Burson v5i soon once I'm done soldering few zener diodes to drop the op amps Psu Voltage.


To each their own. The cap mod worked out great. As did with my other amps.


----------



## dougms3

Onik said:


> I see no reason to upgrade the caps for p20, if you wanna play with the sound then you need to roll some op amps,I'm upgrading to Burson v5i soon once I'm done soldering few zener diodes to drop the op amps Psu Voltage.


Given that its a budget amp, I'm sure they cut alot of corners to be able to offer it at such a low price.  If it yields any kind of improvement, its worth it imho.

I'm not the type of person to say I hear a difference to satify my ego or justify money spent.  I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong or have made a mistake.  Sometimes I make purchases to prove myself wrong.  I think the having the knowledge is much more valueable, I like to consider it as paying for the knowledge if I'm wrong  
I almost exclusively used the P20 as my main amp for the past 2 months, once I receive it back from Keith, I'll post my thoughts.  I will give my honest opinion.


----------



## Jonmakauu

Gotta ask, @ksorota what caps did you use for modding?


----------



## Guidostrunk

Jonmakauu said:


> Gotta ask, @ksorota what caps did you use for modding?


Send him a pm. He's a great guy to chat with. Very knowledgeable.


----------



## DBaldock9

Onik said:


> I see no reason to upgrade the caps for p20, if you wanna play with the sound then you need to roll some op amps,I'm upgrading to Burson v5i soon once I'm done soldering few zener diodes to drop the op amps Psu Voltage.



Are you isolating the (V+) & (V-) power supply pins for each of the four op-amp sockets?
If not, where are you breaking the +18V and -18V supply rails, and installing the Zener Diodes, to lower the op-amp supply voltages?


----------



## Onik (Mar 2, 2021)

DBaldock9 said:


> Are you isolating the (V+) & (V-) power supply pins for each of the four op-amp sockets?
> If not, where are you breaking the +18V and -18V supply rails, and installing the Zener Diodes, to lower the op-amp supply voltages?


This is what I'm going to do:


Edit: I changed the value to 2V2 because the V6 might perform better with a bit higher voltage.


----------



## CADCAM

Basick said:


> Anyone have any experience with these two tubes?
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/6N3P-2C51-3...965875?hash=item3b0a2065f3:g:EYgAAOSwPhdU27jo
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2x-6N3P-DR-...209928?hash=item2637388bc8:g:xoQAAOSwDdxed6Bs
> 
> What is the differences between them?


I have both, the first link 1968 6N3P is an excellent tube and I've had it in my P20 for quite a while but just swapped it out with a matched pair of 1981 6N3P that also sound fantastic IMHO. I have yet to try the 6N3P-DR's but as soon as I do I'll post something. I like to leave a tube in for a bit to really get an idea of its sound sig.
The 6N3P I received from that same seller had one marked 68 and the other 69 but they sounded great so I'm fine with that. It's more important they are matched electrically. I also have purchased from tubes_old70 as well and George has some excellent tubes that he tightly matches. 6N3P's are relatively cheap so I'd get a few matched pairs and see\hear which you like best.


----------



## Guidostrunk

If you guys like the 6n3p. The triple mica from the foton plant are the best 5670/396a tube in that family of tubes. 
These are from 82. But if you keep searching you can find some from the mid to late 50's 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-I-6N3...-/224148145994?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

Next in line would be the triple mica from the Reflektor plant. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUBE-6N3P-...-/293109588843?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


----------



## dougms3

Just received my order from tubesandsound 

Surprised it came so fast considering its shipping from Russia.  Ordered on Feb 21 and received it today.  

Can anyone explain the writing on the tubes here?  I'd just like to familiarize myself with whats going on so I can learn to tube properly 

Just


----------



## Guidostrunk

Test results. Look really strong/NOS testing.


----------



## smashey

Bugger! You’ve got me at it now. I only ordered the P20 for fun and now I’m ordering Russian hand me downs. I’m worried where this will end.


----------



## Andrea Vassalli (Mar 4, 2021)

Guys from today I am with you ....
Tomorrow the balanced cable for Amiron arrives and then I am waiting to receive the 4.4 to 2 Xlr cable from China to connect to my IFI Signature
https://imgur.com/96Js8mp
https://imgur.com/UNtIuDF


----------



## CADCAM

Here's my set up...well one of them.


----------



## Cat Music

Andrea Vassalli said:


> Guys from today I am with you ....
> Tomorrow the balanced cable for Amiron arrives and then I am waiting to receive the 4.4 to 2 Xlr cable from China to connect to my IFI Signature
> https://imgur.com/96Js8mp
> https://imgur.com/UNtIuDF


Hello, could you share the link where you bought the 4.4 to XLR cable, it may be useful to me, I am thinking of buying a cable with those characteristics


----------



## Guidostrunk

I've had this one in my watch list lol.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-4mm-to-D...-/324346533805?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


----------



## Andrea Vassalli (Mar 5, 2021)

Cat Music said:


> Hello, could you share the link where you bought the 4.4 to XLR cable, it may be useful to me, I am thinking of buying a cable with those characteristics


Hi, I got the cable from an Aliexpress seller, I preferred the measure of 0.50 meters
https://it.aliexpress.com/item/4000062254037.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.38054c4dPKP4Zy


----------



## arielext

I just got some new 6Н3П-ЕВ tubes I found on fleabay. Thought I bought 1 set but instead got 4 tubes, for less then €9 (not matched but still all 4 are good), insane price for such silent and quality tubes!
With the new power supply I have the feeling the amp has cleaner bass and steps up to the next level.

Next level is still nothing compared to the big amps but it's only a fraction of the cost


----------



## Jonmakauu

I am planning to replace the caps on these with better ones, can anyone please check the values for me? Thanks


----------



## Guidostrunk

Jonmakauu said:


> I am planning to replace the caps on these with better ones, can anyone please check the values for me? Thanks


Send @ksorota  a pm.


----------



## dougms3

Should receive my P20 back from Keith on Friday.  

I am very excite !!


----------



## Guidostrunk

dougms3 said:


> Should receive my P20 back from Keith on Friday.
> 
> I am very excite !!


Awesome! Please post your thoughts after you spend some time with it. 
I get my MJ2 back tomorrow from him lol.


----------



## dougms3

Guidostrunk said:


> Awesome! Please post your thoughts after you spend some time with it.
> I get my MJ2 back tomorrow from him lol.


Will do.

I only have this SMSL SP200 amp, its nice but the neutral sound gets kind of dull after a while.  

Miss the P20 and I'm dieing to try these Russian tubes.


----------



## Guidostrunk

dougms3 said:


> Will do.
> 
> I only have this SMSL SP200 amp, its nice but the neutral sound gets kind of dull after a while.
> 
> Miss the P20 and I'm dieing to try these Russian tubes.


If those Russian tubes don't work out for you send me a pm. I can steer you in the right direction.


----------



## DBaldock9

I don't believe there are any capacitors between the op-amps and the output jacks. 
. 
I expect there are DC blocking capacitors at the input jacks. 
. 
And there are probably capacitors in series with (and isolating) the audio signals in the high-voltage tube section.


----------



## dougms3

DBaldock9 said:


> I don't believe there are any capacitors between the op-amps and the output jacks.
> .
> I expect there are DC blocking capacitors at the input jacks.
> .
> And there are probably capacitors in series with (and isolating) the audio signals in the high-voltage tube section.


Glad to have such a technical mind with strong electronics knowledge in this thread but I wish I could understand the things you say.


----------



## dougms3

Got my amp back from Keith today. 

Its a significant improvement.  The SMSL SP200 is my standard for comparison since I've had it for quite a long time.  I only have the two amps and I always would analyze back and forth with the SMSL SP200 and without a doubt especially the higher frequencies, SP200 was always more capable with clarity, detail, resolution, punch.  The P20 is a hybrid amp so I wouldn't expect it to match a solid state THX amp in those aspects but its definitely getting closer with the upgraded caps.  Its improved the most in the higher frequencies, thats where I felt the stock P20 fell behind the SP200, its now narrowed that gap a good bit.  Also, its seems warmer and tubier now.  

Man the way the female vocals ooze 





Need more time to determine differences in detail for sure but I know I like it better, its definitely more enjoyable to listen to than my SP200.  

Now I gotta try these Russian tubes


----------



## Jonmakauu

Has anybody tried these tubes on the p20?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164135209928


----------



## califmike33

Wow im late to the party on this amp.  Just ordered one and got drop 6xx on the way.  To many tube options, never did any tube rolling but i very much want to try.  Dont want to spend alot maybe $25 to get new tubes any suggestions ?


----------



## Jonmakauu

califmike33 said:


> Wow im late to the party on this amp.  Just ordered one and got drop 6xx on the way.  To many tube options, never did any tube rolling but i very much want to try.  Dont want to spend alot maybe $25 to get new tubes any suggestions ?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6N3P-DR...209928?hash=item2637388bc8:g:xoQAAOSwDdxed6Bs

These were the tubes that I landed on, haven't tried them yet though, will come back here as soon as I'm done comparing them to the stock ones.


----------



## smashey

So these arrive today from Romania 

Califmike33 another ebay option for you  https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-TUBE-...768720?hash=item48ebec2b90:g:MxkAAOSwXmFeybcQ

Yes, they took a good 3-4 weeks to arrive, but having a tested matched pair for that price seems very reasonable. You're still in a bit of a lottery if you just date or batch match tubes.

Sound wise - obviously these two are just getting comfortable and I'll know for sure when they are fully settled in - the upgrade is similar on just the unbalanced output as the comparison to the balanced output with the stock tubes. Getting a fuller, rounder sound altogether with the impression that everything just has a little more weight behind it. Not necessarilly a warmer or more 'tube' like sound, just more heft. Today I'm listening with DT990 pro250 ohm but later I will try my HD660S on the balanced output.


----------



## dougms3

Recently received some of the GE 5670w tubes from ebay.  I think I prefer these over the Russian tubes.

If anyone is interested it looks like the US government recently released some NOS and there are quite a few sellers on ebay selling a pair for under $20.


----------



## Jonmakauu

dougms3 said:


> Recently received some of the GE 5670w tubes from ebay.  I think I prefer these over the Russian tubes.
> 
> If anyone is interested it looks like the US government recently released some NOS and there are quite a few sellers on ebay selling a pair for under $20.


A man needs a link


----------



## dougms3

Jonmakauu said:


> A man needs a link


https://www.ebay.com/itm/5670-W-2C5...-/382410760498?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286

I bought mine from this seller.  Items looks brand new, boxes never opened.


----------



## Jonmakauu

and also, has anybody tried ge 5670 3 mica sq getter? How are they compared to the Russian tubes?


----------



## Mellowship

I cannot seem to be able to connect any power adaptor to the P20 other than that it came with. I have several power adapters around with the same plug size but they just refuse to enter, as if they were too large. On the other hand, the loxjie's just plugs to any other socket. 
Someone else had this problem?


----------



## Arum16

Mellowship said:


> I cannot seem to be able to connect any power adaptor to the P20 other than that it came with. I have several power adapters around with the same plug size but they just refuse to enter, as if they were too large. On the other hand, the loxjie's just plugs to any other socket.
> Someone else had this problem?


My own experience:
The P20's power connector is 5.5mm x 2.5mm. I upgraded to a 12V/6A power supply and had to add a female 5.5x2.1mm to 5.5x2.5mm male adapter.
This adapter was bought on a electronics hardware shop.
Hope this helps


----------



## Mellowship

Arum16 said:


> My own experience:
> The P20's power connector is 5.5mm x 2.5mm. I upgraded to a 12V/6A power supply and had to add a female 5.5x2.1mm to 5.5x2.5mm male adapter.
> This adapter was bought on a electronics hardware shop.
> Hope this helps


Thank you! I'll try to fetch an adapter.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

I have the P20 on an A-B test setup next to an SMSL SH-9.  Running a few days now.  It's been fun.  They are very similar on tracks that I can really listen to the soundstage and echo-y details.


----------



## Cat Music

ShaolinGrump said:


> I have the P20 on an A-B test setup next to an SMSL SH-9.  Running a few days now.  It's been fun.  They are very similar on tracks that I can really listen to the soundstage and echo-y details.


did you upgrade tubes?


----------



## ShaolinGrump

I am tube rolling.  So far:

Russian 6N3P-E
Sylvania Gold Brand JHS 5670 on socket savers
GE JAN 5670 (on order from an eBay Chinese vendor

The stock tubes were least impressive.  Not noticing the difference yet between the Russians and the Sylvania.


----------



## David Chew

I'm running a pair of GE JAN 5670W from 1987 and these make the P20 sing.


----------



## Jonmakauu

David Chew said:


> I'm running a pair of GE JAN 5670W from 1987 and these make the P20 sing.


Running the p20s on stock tubes are just... nah. I run mine with 6N3P-DR russian tubes and they were wayy better than stock, better extension on both ends of the spectrum, better detail with very tight and sufficient bass.


----------



## JazzArtist123

After purchasing some 6N3P-DR tubes and listening for a while, here's an update to my original post/review on the Loxjie P20.  I'll list the tubes I've tried in the order I like them from 1st to last:

GE 5670 5 Star
6N3P-DR
6N3P-E
JAN-5670W GE
6N3 (Stock)
While I like the GE 5670 5 Star tubes the best on the Loxjie P20, the 6N3P-DR tubes are a close second and they tend to be a bit cheaper.  Hope this helps future tube-upgraders decide what to go for.


----------



## Jonmakauu

JazzArtist123 said:


> After purchasing some 6N3P-DR tubes and listening for a while, here's an update to my original post/review on the Loxjie P20.  I'll list the tubes I've tried in the order I like them from 1st to last:
> 
> GE 5670 5 Star
> 6N3P-DR
> ...


6N3P-DR are awesome, great tubes at a great price


----------



## CADCAM

Listening to The Yes Album ~ Expanded and Remastered on the Loxjie P20 being fed from a SMSL SU-8 DAC which is being fed from a NAD C542, full balanced from DAC to amp and a Periapt balanced cable to my HiFiMan HE400i. 
P20 is utilizing a matched pair of 1968 Reflektor 6N3P tubes. For the money, a total of around $650. this system sounds very good and I am thoroughly enjoying it! Texture, detail, nice quick bass with no overhang and highs are clean and grain free. Great remaster of a classic BTW.


----------



## Basick

If anyone has used socket savers for their amp, does the one on the right stick up above the left one? I for one cannot push the one on the right further down


----------



## Jonmakauu

Basick said:


> If anyone has used socket savers for their amp, does the one on the right stick up above the left one? I for one cannot push the one on the right further down


I had the same issue with mine before, the socket saver is not properly pushed down if that happens, try swapping the L and R socket savers


----------



## Basick

Jonmakauu said:


> I had the same issue with mine before, the socket saver is not properly pushed down if that happens, try swapping the L and R socket savers


Ahhh yes! That seemed to have done the trick!

Thank you!


----------



## Mellowship

Jonmakauu said:


> I had the same issue with mine before, the socket saver is not properly pushed down if that happens, try swapping the L and R socket savers


It is tricky to insert socket savers on this amp, indeed. First time I tried, one of the saver's pins did not get right into the socket and I had to take it off. Problem is that it would not come up. I had to disassemble the P20 and lever the socket off with a small screwdriver beneath the cover, because with the savers inserted, the PCB does not come out... 
Most socket savers are of mediocre quality, with thin and ductile pins and cheap bakelite. 
A great advantage of using socket savers, besides making it much easier to swap tubes, is to keep the amp cooler. And it really works with the P20.


----------



## Jonmakauu

Mellowship said:


> It is tricky to insert socket savers on this amp, indeed. First time I tried, one of the saver's pins did not get right into the socket and I had to take it off. Problem is that it would not come up. I had to disassemble the P20 and lever the socket off with a small screwdriver beneath the cover, because with the savers inserted, the PCB does not come out...
> Most socket savers are of mediocre quality, with thin and ductile pins and cheap bakelite.
> A great advantage of using socket savers, besides making it much easier to swap tubes, is to keep the amp cooler. And it really works with the P20.


And it also covers up those horrid blue leds that are bright as hell when in a dark room🤮


----------



## DBaldock9

Jonmakauu said:


> And it also covers up those horrid blue leds that are bright as hell when in a dark room🤮



Those LEDs were annoying enough, that I removed the sockets, and unsoldered the series resistors, to turn them off.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

GE JAN 5670W are opening up nicely on day 3. I noticed when Beastie Boys’ Eugene’s Lament came on Amazon HD shuffle. Can’t unhear the space and detail now a few tracks later.


----------



## Guidostrunk

There's a pair of Bendix 5670 in the for sale forums. Under the cables, speakers, and tweaks section. Seller has a steal of a price on them at $50 shipped. I would have posted a link but with the new classifieds format I don't know how lol.


----------



## cirodts

Is good for loxjie?
https://www.amazon.it/DollaTek-Prea...qid=1620901483&sprefix=ge+5670,aps,174&sr=8-3


----------



## ShaolinGrump

Just upgraded to a cheap Aclorol 12V 6A PSU from Amazon.  Seems to be an improvement already.  The sound is like the amp has been running for a while, but I just switched it on a few minutes ago.  I'll have to wait to see if any songs play from behind the veil.  I have definitely noticed veiling occasionally, but not always.


----------



## cirodts

the loxjie is fantastic, i listen to the sundara with xlr cable and despite the dac enters rca in the loxjie the sound is fabulous.


----------



## Mellowship

I just had a 3A that I had here connected to the loxjie after I received the plug adapter, and it makes a difference. The bass seems more controlled indeed. Got to listen more thoroughly now...


----------



## cirodts

I added a 12v 5a power supply and jan 5670 tubes.


----------



## ranchowner (May 27, 2021)

Currently have Russian 6NP3-DR tubes on the way together with GE JAN 5670, but can't say that I'm not satisfied with stock tubes.

I'm considering getting an LCD2C, have anyone tried out those with this amp?

Just trying to figure out if my Loxjie P20 is a dealbreaker for getting this set, I see many that advise against using planars on this amp, but could also find a comment stating that this amp was running an LCD3 just fine.

This amp is my only amp at the time being, running balanced in with my SMSL-SU8, and balanced out.


----------



## cirodts

I am very happy with the sundara which is planar, better than the topping a90.


----------



## Arum16 (May 27, 2021)

ranchowner said:


> Currently have Russian 6NP3-DR tubes on the way together with GE JAN 5670, but can't say that I'm not satisfied with stock tubes.
> 
> 
> This amp is my only amp at the time being, running balanced in with my SMSL-SU8, and balanced out.


My setup also, SMSL-SU8--->Loxjie P20 (6NP3-DR). I'm using HD 6xx. Fully balanced.
Can't say but good things about these.
If you go with the LCD 2C, please let us now your take on it.
Thanks


----------



## cirodts

i use topping e30 in rca al loxjie and xlr to amiron and sundara headphones, they sound great


----------



## ranchowner

Arum16 said:


> My setup also, SMSL-SU8--->Loxjie P20 (6NP3-DR). I'm using HD 6xx. Fully balanced.
> Can't say but good things about these.
> If you go with the LCD 2C, please let us now your take on it.
> Thanks



My setup exact - minus the tubes ( which are on the way in the mail, currently on stock )
How big of an upgrade did you find the 6NP3-DR tubes to be compared to stock, marginal / big improvement? 

Not sure how hard Sundara is to drive compared to LCD2C, I'll pick them up the LCD2C I get the cost approved by my wife.


----------



## Jonmakauu

ranchowner said:


> My setup exact - minus the tubes ( which are on the way in the mail, currently on stock )
> How big of an upgrade did you find the 6NP3-DR tubes to be compared to stock, marginal / big improvement?
> 
> Not sure how hard Sundara is to drive compared to LCD2C, I'll pick them up the LCD2C I get the cost approved by my wife.


Very big improvement, I cannot listen to them with the stock tubes at all


----------



## CADCAM

I just purchased 2 pair of 1960's Foton 6N3P, two different sellers, both stating NOS. Right now I'm running these https://www.ebay.com/itm/253572965875
with great results. Hopefully the Foton's will sound even better.
(NAD cd player to SU-8 to Loxjie to HE400i full balanced.)


----------



## Arum16 (May 27, 2021)

ranchowner said:


> My setup exact - minus the tubes ( which are on the way in the mail, currently on stock )
> How big of an upgrade did you find the 6NP3-DR tubes to be compared to stock, marginal / big improvement?
> 
> Not sure how hard Sundara is to drive compared to LCD2C, I'll pick them up the LCD2C I get the cost approved by my wife.


I never gave the stock tubes a fair chance. Meaning, did not used them for an extended period of time.
For the short period I had them installed, compared to now, the bass sounds more tight and defined, now with the 6NP3-DR (I love cellos and bass on baroque pieces).


----------



## ranchowner

Just ordered the Monolith M1060c, and will open-back mod it.
Looking forward to how this pairs with the Loxjie P20.

Anyone tried it with this amp?


----------



## ranchowner (May 31, 2021)

I just received a GE JAN 5670W tube, thought I ordered a pair... but ofcourse it was a single unit.
Luckily I managed to order another one by mistake at the same time, so guess that will drop in my mail tomorrow.

Currently running stock tubes, can I replace one of the stock tubes with the GE JAN while waiting for my second GE JAN, or do the tubes need to match?

Not sure if I got anything to win by only swapping out one of the tubes.


----------



## CADCAM

I got the Foton's in and installed them in the P20 and have to say I am very happy and surprised with the results. They are both marked 1960 and look to be new. The pins on one were slightly moved I believe by the packaging but after a couple adjustments all  is well. I have read that the old Foton's are expensive and rare but I took a chance and ordered two matched sets on fleabay from different sellers, received one pair and am impressed by what I am hearing.
Immediate, detailed, a somewhat forward sound compared to the 1968 Reflectors I was running. Great treble extension and solid low end. I'm listening to all sorts of music and struggling to fault them for the super low price. I fully expected to have these in for a few hours and retire them to the tube draw to sit in darkness but they are still in on day two impressing me! Not sure if I just lucked out but these are them

https://www.ebay.com/itm/402776546038?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=d431254f053a48f3bcd8ff6b33b49836&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=402776546038&itm=402776546038&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:580cf1b7-c63d-11eb-a61d-dab2ae50e105|parentrq:dde1ce2d1790a764fc12841dffe23e67|iid:1

try at your own risk as I fully expected these to not sound anything like they do...


----------



## ranchowner

CADCAM said:


> I got the Foton's in and installed them in the P20 and have to say I am very happy and surprised with the results. They are both marked 1960 and look to be new. The pins on one were slightly moved I believe by the packaging but after a couple adjustments all  is well. I have read that the old Foton's are expensive and rare but I took a chance and ordered two matched sets on fleabay from different sellers, received one pair and am impressed by what I am hearing.
> Immediate, detailed, a somewhat forward sound compared to the 1968 Reflectors I was running. Great treble extension and solid low end. I'm listening to all sorts of music and struggling to fault them for the super low price. I fully expected to have these in for a few hours and retire them to the tube draw to sit in darkness but they are still in on day two impressing me! Not sure if I just lucked out but these are them
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/402776546038?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=d431254f053a48f3bcd8ff6b33b49836&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=402776546038&itm=402776546038&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:580cf1b7-c63d-11eb-a61d-dab2ae50e105|parentrq:dde1ce2d1790a764fc12841dffe23e67|iid:1
> ...



Nice, might have to give them a try, just receiced 6N3P-DR tubes that were quite a step up from stock.


----------



## CADCAM

1960 6N3P Fotons are very forward in the mids compared to the more neutral sound sig of the 1969 Reflectors. This makes the Foton sound very good with guitar and piano, very mid focused. They do have nice bass and the highs are there but I'm listening to the Reflectors as I type and it's much more balanced throughout the whole spectrum. I really enjoy the Fotons but they are quite different and I'm hearing the bass and highs on the Reflectors and wondering if it was this detailed and present with the Foton. Options are always nice though and I will keep the Fotons in the rotation, they are brand new and I might have put 4 hrs on them so they may change a bit as they mature. The P20 is a nice little hybrid though and now that I have the Xduoo MT-602 coming in I can compare the two! My Little Dot MKIII takes the same tube as the Xduoo so I already have tons of options for it.


----------



## dougms3

CADCAM said:


> 1960 6N3P Fotons are very forward in the mids compared to the more neutral sound sig of the 1969 Reflectors. This makes the Foton sound very good with guitar and piano, very mid focused. They do have nice bass and the highs are there but I'm listening to the Reflectors as I type and it's much more balanced throughout the whole spectrum. I really enjoy the Fotons but they are quite different and I'm hearing the bass and highs on the Reflectors and wondering if it was this detailed and present with the Foton. Options are always nice though and I will keep the Fotons in the rotation, they are brand new and I might have put 4 hrs on them so they may change a bit as they mature. The P20 is a nice little hybrid though and now that I have the Xduoo MT-602 coming in I can compare the two! My Little Dot MKIII takes the same tube as the Xduoo so I already have tons of options for it.


The mt-602 would make for an interesting comparison.

Waiting to hear your thoughts.


----------



## Researcher (Jul 25, 2021)

Anyone successfully replacing capacitors or opamps on the board?  It is sort of something like impossible to do in this topic, but someone had uploaded a video a long time before!


----------



## Guidostrunk

Researcher said:


> Anyone successfully replacing capacitors or opamps on the board?  It is sort of something like impossible to do in this topic, but someone had uploaded a video a long time before!


I had one cap modded. Definitely improves the amp. Cleaner image, more weight to the sound, more 3d sounding.


----------



## Arum16 (Jul 25, 2021)

Researcher said:


> Anyone successfully replacing capacitors or opamps on the board?  It is sort of something like impossible to do in this topic, but someone had uploaded a video a long time before!


I think DBaldock9 has done it. Check a few pages back on this thread.
His "customization" of the P20 starts here.


----------



## Researcher

Guidostrunk said:


> I had one cap modded. Definitely improves the amp. Cleaner image, more weight to the sound, more 3d sounding.


Do you know the brand that you ordered? I believe that you had knocked the door of ksorota?


----------



## dougms3

Ksorota upgraded some of the caps on my p20.  It definitely yielded a improvement over stock.

I'm not sure which caps he used but he said, "Nichicon muse/fine golds or the Elna Silmic IIs, but also have used mundorf and audio note caps with good results."


----------



## jonathan c

Another stellar job by CAPtain Ksorota !!


----------



## DBaldock9

Researcher said:


> Anyone successfully replacing capacitors or opamps on the board?  It is sort of something like impossible to do in this topic, but someone had uploaded a video a long time before!


 
Note: The op-amp +18V & -18V supply rails are set by the custom transformer in the DC-to-DC converter, and not by IC Voltage Regulators - so make sure your replacement op-amps are rated for at least 36V.
.
Otherwise, you'll need to isolate all of the op-amp supply pins, add additional lower voltage regulators, and hardwire them to the op-amps.


----------



## Researcher

DBaldock9 said:


> Note: The op-amp +18V & -18V supply rails are set by the custom transformer in the DC-to-DC converter, and not by IC Voltage Regulators - so make sure your replacement op-amps are rated for at least 36V.
> .
> Otherwise, you'll need to isolate all of the op-amp supply pins, add additional lower voltage regulators, and hardwire them to the op-amps.



P20 uses NJR55320 whose Operating Voltage is up to +-20V (not more). Someone from another platform suggests any opamp more than 18V for a safety step. This is said to be cause Loxjie P20 has a few of variants. Depending the design, I suspect the supply rails changes (not sure at all!) BTW, The guy (on that video) uses OPA2134Pa (+-18V), please click that as I revised the link of the video. 

I read somewhere a user claims to have placed 4 of SS3602 on the board. As result, He adds An oscillation happens. Is there anyone here who tried to use 4 of SS3602? Or any suggestion for the brand of opamp to roll?


----------



## Researcher

dougms3 said:


> Ksorota upgraded some of the caps on my p20.  It definitely yielded a improvement over stock.
> 
> I'm not sure which caps he used but he said, "Nichicon muse/fine golds or the Elna Silmic IIs, but also have used mundorf and audio note caps with good results."



Thanks for this,  if you do not mind, can you elaborate on what happened to the timbre of the sound after this heavily done mod? Like warmer or colder, stage size, the blackness of the background, space between instruments etc.


----------



## DBaldock9

Researcher said:


> P20 uses NJR55320 whose Operating Voltage is up to +-20V (not more). Someone from another platform suggests any opamp more than 18V for a safety step. This is said to be cause Loxjie P20 has a few of variants. Depending the design, I suspect the supply rails changes (not sure at all!) BTW, The guy (on that video) uses OPA2134Pa (+-18V), please click that as I revised the link of the video.
> 
> I read somewhere a user claims to have placed 4 of SS3602 on the board. As result, He adds An oscillation happens. Is there anyone here who tried to use 4 of SS3602? Or any suggestion for the brand of opamp to roll?



I have tried multiple SS3602 op-amps in my P20, but there is high frequency oscillation, and they get hot. This is even with the additional bypass capacitors mounted on the back of the board.


----------



## dougms3

Researcher said:


> Thanks for this,  if you do not mind, can you elaborate on what happened to the timbre of the sound after this heavily done mod? Like warmer or colder, stage size, the blackness of the background, space between instruments etc.


I have a difficulty remembering what it sounded like stock to be honest.  I do remember there was an increase in clarity and detail, I'm sure there were other improvements but I cannot remember specifically what they were.

On top of that I also upgraded the power supply, got 2 different sets of tubes and if you can see in the image I put fo.q ta102 dot cut outs on top of all the caps, I took the pic half way through.


----------



## Researcher

DBaldock9 said:


> I have tried multiple SS3602 op-amps in my P20, but there is high frequency oscillation, and they get hot. This is even with the additional bypass capacitors mounted on the back of the board.



AFAIK, David you mixed a couple of SS3602 with another kind of op-amps. This might cause this high freq oscillation. What I meant is rolling all of them up. I know the space of the board does not allow for this, but we can use something like below. What do you think?









dougms3 said:


> I have a difficulty remembering what it sounded like stock to be honest.  I do remember there was an increase in clarity and detail, I'm sure there were other improvements but I cannot remember specifically what they were.
> 
> On top of that I also upgraded the power supply, got 2 different sets of tubes and if you can see in the image I put fo.q ta102 dot cut outs on top of all the caps, I took the pic half way through.



I could not find how much current the amp draws except for official documentation. It clearly highlights power consumption is 10w, which means the current is around 0.9A.





Therefore, the given power adapter seems to be quite sufficient `if ` the adapter is able to supply _continuously_ 1.69A. The values at its back might be observed not continuously but at maximum performance. So I would like to have a try IpowerX 12V/ 2A adapter, which seems the best to P20.


----------



## cirodts

Hi I have this amplifier with ge 5670 tubes and ifi power supply with fidelio x2hr headphones the sound is better than my topping at 90, which tubes do you recommend to further improve the sound?


----------



## Guidostrunk

cirodts said:


> Hi I have this amplifier with ge 5670 tubes and ifi power supply with fidelio x2hr headphones the sound is better than my topping at 90, which tubes do you recommend to further improve the sound?


The best in that family of tubes is The Western Electric 396a or Tung sol 2c51.


----------



## cirodts

Guidostrunk said:


> The best in that family of tubes is The Western Electric 396a or Tung sol 2c51.


https://www.ebay.it/itm/265302045366?hash=item3dc53bf2b6:g:ZVsAAOSwmGdhLuiH
these, but do they cost so much?


----------



## Guidostrunk

cirodts said:


> https://www.ebay.it/itm/265302045366?hash=item3dc53bf2b6:g:ZVsAAOSwmGdhLuiH
> these, but do they cost so much?


Yep. That's them. They are pricey but they're 1 of the best in that family of tubes. I personally preferred the Tung-sol 2c51 myself.


----------



## cirodts

I have 3 headphones: amiron, sundara and fidelio, amiron sounds very good with A90 and loxjie, sundara sounds bad with A90 and pretty well with loxjie finally fidelio sounds very bad with A90 and beautifully with loxjie, for me the value of the loxjie is well beyond 99 euros.


----------



## iFi audio

Guidostrunk said:


> The Western Electric 396a



Yes, that's what I would consider a step above GE JAN 5670 indeed


----------



## Guidostrunk

iFi audio said:


> Yes, that's what I would consider a step above GE JAN 5670 indeed


🍻


----------



## Guidostrunk

iFi audio said:


> Yes, that's what I would consider a step above GE JAN 5670 indeed


I hope everyone is paying attention to this reply. Lol


----------



## iFi audio

Guidostrunk said:


> I hope everyone is paying attention to this reply. Lol



We think that GE 5670 JANs are impossible to beat considering their price, but what we think about those WE tubes is not a secret


----------



## equalspeace

Just bought this immediately upon realizing it exists. Loxjie is a sleeper Co making awesome products under the radar.


----------



## DBaldock9

I saw it mentioned (on a different thread) a couple of years ago, when Amazon had it for $80 on the Prime Day Sale. 
. 
Since then, I have done some Mods - 
Cut the case in-half. 
Install sockets for the op-amps. 
Install additional filter caps for the op-amps. 
Unsolder the series resistors, to turn off the LEDs under the Tube sockets. 
Add tube risers.
Install Reflektor 6N3P-DR Tubes (1980 NOS). 
Install ~$250 worth of OPA627AU op-amps to drive the outputs.


----------



## cirodts

for the loxjie p20 it makes a better ifi power 12v or 15v?


----------



## Arum16

cirodts said:


> for the loxjie p20 it makes a better ifi power 12v or 15v?


As far as I know, if it is marked as a 12VDC appliance, it should be supplied with 12VDC only.
You can "play" with current/amperage, hence I use a 12VDC 6A power supply on my own P20, instead of the original 12VDC 1.67A.


----------



## cirodts

okay, i will stay with my ifi power 12v


----------



## rprodrigues (Sep 10, 2021)

DBaldock9 said:


> Install Reflektor 6N3P-DR Tubes (1980 NOS).


Any known trusted seller for them?

I've found a few listings on Ebay but the prices asked are significantly varying.
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/133598278899 ($12)
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/164640529971 ($19)
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/254407450369 ($25, but non-reflektor)


----------



## cirodts

are they better than g and 5670 as sound?


----------



## rprodrigues

cirodts said:


> are they better than g and 5670 as sound?


Do you mean the 6n3p-dr tubes?

 If so, from what I've read, yes, but I haven't tested them yet.


----------



## DBaldock9 (Sep 10, 2021)

rprodrigues said:


> Any know trusted seller for them?
> 
> I've found a few listings on Ebay but the prices asked are significantly varying.
> - https://www.ebay.com/itm/133598278899 ($12)
> ...



*EDIT: The were purchased on 15-MAR-20.*

On 15-MAR-21, I bought a set of 4 tubes for US$24, from a Ukrainian vendor named "sarmat1968" - https://www.ebay.com/usr/sarmat1968


----------



## cirodts

rprodrigues said:


> Do you mean the 6n3p-dr tubes?
> 
> If so, from what I've read, yes, but I haven't tested them yet.


let us know if they sound better than the ge5670.


----------



## rprodrigues

DBaldock9 said:


> *EDIT: The were purchased on 15-MAR-20.*
> 
> On 15-MAR-21, I bought a set of 4 tubes for US$24, from a Ukrainian vendor named "sarmat1968" - https://www.ebay.com/usr/sarmat1968



I've ordered two pairs from the same seller.

Thank you.


----------



## iFi audio

cirodts said:


> okay, i will stay with my ifi power 12v



I would do too if a manufacturer says that 12VDC is the correct voltage.


----------



## cirodts

I have the ge 5670, it happens to you that they do not fit well?
Do they clip very little to the crown and don't go all the way down for a good connection?


----------



## Jonmakauu

cirodts said:


> I have the ge 5670, it happens to you that they do not fit well?
> Do they clip very little to the crown and don't go all the way down for a good connection?


Try swapping the l and r tubes


----------



## equalspeace

Ohh man.. The HD560s sounds absolutely glorious on the D50 fed to the P20 balanced. This combo gives the 560s everything it needs to sound excellent w classical music. Everything jumps a level, particularly note weight. In my experience the 560S badly needs a DAC/amp combo that can give instruments in busier sections their proper placement on the stage, as the stage can get a bit clustered with classical on DAPs and lesser DACs. From the D50/P20 stage depth and height increase enough to really show what this headphone can do as it layers the instruments. And that last drop of resolution is utilized to not make the 560s sound strained in busy sections with large dynamic swings. Very pleased with the performance of the P20, though it sounded a bit too warm with the stock tubes with the HD600. Waiting for some upgrade tubes to try when they arrive.


----------



## cirodts

DBaldock9 said:


> I saw it mentioned (on a different thread) a couple of years ago, when Amazon had it for $80 on the Prime Day Sale.
> .
> Since then, I have done some Mods -
> Cut the case in-half.
> ...


link Reflektor 6N3P-DR, thanks.


----------



## DBaldock9

cirodts said:


> link Reflektor 6N3P-DR, thanks.



A few posts up the thread... 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lox...nformation-on-this-thing.903733/post-16554259


----------



## cirodts

DBaldock9 said:


> A few posts up the thread...
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lox...nformation-on-this-thing.903733/post-16554259


thanks, quantity 1 means 1 valve or a couple of valves?


----------



## rprodrigues (Oct 1, 2021)

cirodts said:


> thanks, quantity 1 means 1 valve or a couple of valves?



This listing is for a pair (2 units):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USSR-Russi...1980-NOS-2-pcs/133598278899?item=133598278899


----------



## cirodts

does anyone directly compare the loxjie to the xduoo t20? if yes i'd like to read the sound impressions of him.


----------



## trollchu

I see a lot of people in this thread have modified the opamps on their p20. Currently, does a tutorial exist breaking down how to do this?


----------



## DBaldock9

trollchu said:


> I see a lot of people in this thread have modified the opamps on their p20. Currently, does a tutorial exist breaking down how to do this?



1.) Unplug Power
2.) Remove Tubes
3.) Unscrew front panel
4.) Unplug 2 flat ribbon cables from front panel circuit board
5.) Set aside front panel
6.) Unscrew back panel
7.) Slide main circuit board, with attached back panel, out of the case
8.) Carefully unsolder the 4x through-hole 8-Pin op-amps
9.) Carefully solder in 4x 8-Pin DIP sockets - noting which end is Pin 1
10.) Find and install 4x Dual op-amps that can work with ±18VDC rails
11.) Reverse Steps (7 - 1), to reassemble and use the P20 Amp


----------



## troyoz

Hello, everyone!  Brand new poster here, and I just bought my first ever DAC+amp combo in the form of the Loxjie P20 and the SMSL Sanskrit.  The Sanskrit sounds excellent on its own, but it's not as loud as I think it could be with the amp.  

Cliffnotes on my issues with the Loxjie P20 amp on Day 1:

- The problem is that on top of the amp being a pre-owned unit from Amazon, I finally received some unbalanced connectors for the amp and they sound quite horrible.

- When I plug in only one of the two RCA cables into the input of the P20 amp, I get a much better soundscape, but I never get a proper output when both of the RCA cables are plugged in.  Everything sounds distorted and good chunks of the sound seem to be omitted entirely.

- I got an aftermarket power supply for the Loxjie P20 amp, rated at 12V and 5A of power.  Neither it nor the original power supply seem to have any influence on the problem I am experiencing.

- I wish I knew how to properly use the balanced output on the P20 amp, but have no idea whether it will work with either my Razer Blackshark headphones which I own now, or the Beyerdynamic DT 900 PRO X's I just ordered a few weeks ago for that matter.

Any advice or feedback from the regulars on this thread would be greatly appreciated!  I'm still very happy with my DAC, but I am considering refunding or exchanging this amp as I suspect that it's defective but I cannot diagnosed the balanced connections so that I can be sure.


----------



## DBaldock9

troyoz said:


> Hello, everyone!  Brand new poster here, and I just bought my first ever DAC+amp combo in the form of the Loxjie P20 and the SMSL Sanskrit.  The Sanskrit sounds excellent on its own, but it's not as loud as I think it could be with the amp.
> 
> Cliffnotes on my issues with the Loxjie P20 amp on Day 1:
> 
> ...



Does the sound of the amp change when you switch either the cable or the input you're using?
Have you tried swapping the tubes from one channel to the other?


----------



## troyoz

I've tried swapping the tubes to no avail.  I'll have to order a cable in order to use the balanced input, so I'm forced to use the unbalanced input for now.


----------



## Arum16

troyoz said:


> I've tried swapping the tubes to no avail.  I'll have to order a cable in order to use the balanced input, so I'm forced to use the unbalanced input for now.


I've never used my P20 on unbalanced configuration. From day 1, I've always used it fully balanced, from my DAC to my headphones.
By the reports on this thread, with no further enhancements to the P20, fully balanced mode is how you get the best out of this amp.
I'd suggest, a close watch on Amazon's return deadline for defect items.


----------



## intoitreviews (Dec 15, 2021)

GravityEyelids said:


> Okay so there is really not much out there on the Loxjie P20. There's a few out there that have given really high regards to this thing, and i feel like it deserves a good discussion. (TL;DR: just read the bold stuff)
> 
> The main thing i want to know is regarding the balanced in/out. I DON'T want this to descend into a balanced argument thing. The point is that nearly every reviewer has mentioned how the balanced is noticeably better on this thing. I personally don't care about balanced - it's not something i need or care about. HOWEVER. It seems like the circuitry/electronics/whatever in this specific amp is somehow better than the unbalanced.
> 
> ...


*can i still take advantage of this "better" balanced sound by simply using something like RCA --> XLR adapters and running them into the Loxjie P20 inputs*? Not really.  Balanced DACs have a higher output than non-balanced, and the circuit of the amp would need a balanced line level (using an adapter cable would not change this).  There are cheaper balanced DACs like the Khadas Pro, ifi Zen DAC, and others that will all out perform what you have.

Question 2: [Loxjie P20 owners ONLY] - *does this make a good first real amp for the HD6xx*? Yes, I would take it over an atom any day, just run it balanced.  Atom is not as good as this thing with 6xx.  Only better "cheaper priced amp" with 6xx is the iFi Signature 6XX amp, but that's over double the price.

*Will this still give me SOME amount of the benefit of tube despite being hybrid?  *Yes, experiment with different tubes for different flavors. The stock tubes are relatively flat.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

troyoz said:


> I've tried swapping the tubes to no avail.  I'll have to order a cable in order to use the balanced input, so I'm forced to use the unbalanced input for now.


I had this problem with a Bravo Ocean amp.  That only has one tube.  I tried about six different tubes.  Several worked fine.  The rest had exactly the problem you're experiencing.  I haven't had this problem with my two Loxjie P20 units.

You have a circuitry problem in your amp, or you have tubes that aren't working correctly in the amp.  The best test is to try a bunch of P20 compatible tube pairs that are well matched to each other.  But that kinda defeats the purpose of a nice cheap P20.


----------



## troyoz (Dec 15, 2021)

ShaolinGrump said:


> I had this problem with a Bravo Ocean amp.  That only has one tube.  I tried about six different tubes.  Several worked fine.  The rest had exactly the problem you're experiencing.  I haven't had this problem with my two Loxjie P20 units.
> 
> You have a circuitry problem in your amp, or you have tubes that aren't working correctly in the amp.  The best test is to try a bunch of P20 compatible tube pairs that are well matched to each other.  But that kinda defeats the purpose of a nice cheap P20.


I'll most likely be returning it, although to get one from outside Canada could be a potential nightmare -- I was given an ETA of August 10th by Amazon if I were to buy a new one instead of the pre-owned I did buy.  I do have a pair of tubes that I bought from AliExpress as well as a balanced-to-3.5mm adapter which are both on the way now.  If those do not work, then I'll most certainly be returning this unit and buying a new one instead.


----------



## Arum16

troyoz said:


> Hello, everyone!  Brand new poster here, and I just bought my first ever DAC+amp combo in the form of the Loxjie P20 and the SMSL Sanskrit.  The Sanskrit sounds excellent on its own, but it's not as loud as I think it could be with the amp.
> 
> Cliffnotes on my issues with the Loxjie P20 amp on Day 1:
> 
> ...


Just making sure: You've double checked your setting on the Input and Output menus? Via the multi-function volume knob.
I'm asking because I've made a mess out of those settings, on my own P20, on day .


----------



## troyoz

Arum16 said:


> Just making sure: You've double checked your setting on the Input and Output menus? Via the multi-function volume knob.
> I'm asking because I've made a mess out of those settings, on my own P20, on day .


The only settings which will respond correctly are "ou2" and "in2," which would be consistent with where the unbalanced inputs and output are located on the device.  I don't have anything balanced plugged into the amplifier, so I'm fairly certain I adjusted the settings correctly.


----------



## Ufanco (Jan 2, 2022)

Decided to buy one of these to dip my toes into tube amplifiers. Bought one on classified and ordered the balanced cables from amazon. Going be using a M6 pro 21 as source and going be using with iem and a bit concerned with independence of them adding noise is signal. 
Well researching thought I read somewhere that there are tubes that work better with low independence iem? Read a lot reviews and the forum here but can’t find where I read that, any thoughts concerning this would be much appreciated.


----------



## Ufanco (Jan 1, 2022)

Edit I figured it out manual isn’t correct looks like input 1 is the balanced in. So far liking this amp adds a little warmth to sound classic rock sounds good with it. 

Have a quick question using 4.4 to XLR balanced from my Dap isn’t considered a balanced input on the Loxjie p20? In manual says input 2 balanced. I have to set it to input 1 to get sound?


----------



## polandro

Ufanco said:


> Edit I figured it out manual isn’t correct looks like input 1 is the balanced in. So far liking this amp adds a little warmth to sound classic rock sounds good with it.
> 
> Have a quick question using 4.4 to XLR balanced from my Dap isn’t considered a balanced input on the Loxjie p20? In manual says input 2 balanced. I have to set it to input 1 to get sound?



Input 1 _is_ balanced - it is labelled on  the back, below the XLR sockets:


----------



## Ufanco

polandro said:


> Input 1 _is_ balanced - it is labelled on  the back, below the XLR sockets:



Thanks I was going by manual instead of looking at the input jacks. First tube amp along with XLR cables and wasn’t sure it was hooked up correct.


----------



## Ufanco (Jan 12, 2022)

Enjoying this amp and decided want to try out some different tubes. Does anyone have a recommended tube seller ? 
Would I be better off to buy of classified ads here? Anyone looking to sell any there not using?
Looking for 6N3P-DR, Tesla 6CC42 D getter, older 5670.


----------



## gazzington

Is this still a good purchase these days? What tubes would I need to make it more tubey?


----------



## DenverW

gazzington said:


> Is this still a good purchase these days? What tubes would I need to make it more tubey?


The old cliche about price/performance applies pretty well with the loxjie.  I found it a better amp than the other 'budget' amps such as the topping or jds atom.  Not that those are bad, I just preferred the loxjie, both for sound and aesthetics.  Someone else can comment on the 'more tubey' sounding tubes, I did not find tube rolling to make the sound necessarily more tubey, especially compared to OTL amps like the crack.

This amp, run balanced, with a $10 upgraded power supply is a real winner, and I use it on my computer with a balanced sdac.  Great combo.


----------



## dougms3

gazzington said:


> Is this still a good purchase these days? What tubes would I need to make it more tubey?


I think the p20 is still an excellent value even after all these years.  I don't have a real tube amp to compare to so its as close to tubey as I can get.  

Probably the 6n3p-dr tubes, they seem to be the most popular.


----------



## Audiophile PT

dougms3 said:


> I think the p20 is still an excellent value even after all these years.  I don't have a real tube amp to compare to so its as close to tubey as I can get.
> 
> Probably the 6n3p-dr tubes, they seem to be the most popular.


Installed ge-jan5670 and I'm rather satisfied with the result (could not find 6n3p-dr tubes).
For the price, the Loxjie P20 is a great option.


----------



## r343

Does balanced headphone output work if you input rca unbalanced signal?


----------



## ShaolinGrump

Loxjie P20 works RCA SE input to balanced output. It’s not the best signal path available (balanced to balanced) but it will play.


----------



## Ufanco

I really like the 6N3P-E tube but also looking to try 6N3P-DR, Tesla 6CC42 D getter, older 5670. 
Having a blast with this little amp and decided to try a portable tube amp. Depending on how it sounds will determine if going be investing more in Loxjie.


----------



## Audiophile PT

Ufanco said:


> I really like the 6N3P-E tube but also looking to try 6N3P-DR, Tesla 6CC42 D getter, older 5670.
> Having a blast with this little amp and decided to try a portable tube amp. Depending on how it sounds will determine if going be investing more in Loxjie.


Also looking for a portable tube amp but it seems there is nothing good enough on the market (for a reasonable price...)


----------



## Ufanco

Audiophile PT said:


> Also looking for a portable tube amp but it seems there is nothing good enough on the market (for a reasonable price...)



I bought the ORIOLUS BA300S for $340.00
There’s also the Little Bear B4-X for $89.99 and KAEI TAP-1S Fo 297.60

I went with the BA300S since I’m running low independence iem it also it has the most reviews. The KAEI TAP-1S also looked good but It’s new and not many reviews, plus I was concerned with the independence. 
Another member just bought one of the KAEI TAP-1S  I’m gonna wait till I see what his thoughts are.

The little bear there’s some people seem to really like it. Over in portable China tube thread there’s a lot of talk about how people customized it better sound.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/portable-tube-amp-from-china.626237/


----------



## Audiophile PT (Jan 24, 2022)

@Ufanco I have been hesitating to buy Oriolus. Some mixing reviews and also the fact that it does not have a volume control.
Could you please tell me what equipment are you pairing with it ?
Thanks !


----------



## ShaolinGrump

Audiophile PT said:


> @Ufanco I have been hesitating to buy Oriolus. Some mixing reviews and also the fact that it does not have a volume control.
> Could you please tell me what equipment are you pairing with it ?
> Thanks !


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...amp-se02-eq-1795-bt-receiver-and-more.939282/


----------



## Ufanco (Jan 24, 2022)

Audiophile PT said:


> @Ufanco I have been hesitating to buy Oriolus. Some mixing reviews and also the fact that it does not have a volume control.
> Could you please tell me what equipment are you pairing with it ?
> Thanks !


Shanling M6 pro 21 and mest mkii. Bought the Loxjie p20 to see if i liked the tube sounds and since I did, decided to try out the Orioles. 
There are some people on here that are using with a ibasso 312 and mest mkii and are pleased with sound so figure it is worth a shot. The new model of the Orioles now longer has the 3db of gain so be using volume on the Shaling instead of the line out.


----------



## Audiophile PT

Ufanco said:


> Shanling M6 pro 21 and mest mkii. Bought the Loxjie p20 to see if i liked the tube sounds and since I did, decided to try out the Orioles.
> There are some people on here that are using with a ibasso 312 and mest mkii and are pleased with sound so figure it is worth a shot. The new model of the Orioles now longer has the 3db of gain so be using volume on the Shaling instead of the line out.


After having tried the Loxjie P20 (which I like with the ge5670 tubes) I decided to go a little further and got the Xduoo TA-20 which is of course better (although pricier).
I'm enjoying the sound of TubeAmps and now I'm looking for a portable solution.
The Oriolus BA300S is an option and the other one on my list is the Cayin C9, but the ideal was to find something in between  prices...!
Cayin N3Pro is also an option, but there are users reporting serious problems with the volume control knob !


----------



## DBaldock9

r343 said:


> Does balanced headphone output work if you input rca unbalanced signal?





ShaolinGrump said:


> Loxjie P20 works RCA SE input to balanced output. It’s not the best signal path available (balanced to balanced) but it will play.



Back near the digital volume control chip, there's a NE5532 (SOIC-8) op-amp, that appears to be the phase splitter to make the L- and R- from the L+ and R+ inputs on the RCA jacks. It's possible that swapping in a different op-amp could improve the sound of the Single-Ended inputs.


----------



## Cobra71

Hello, I'reading for some time in headfy org, but never postet something till now.
I also own two P20 and one of it stopped working from one day to the other.
I can switch it on but there is no sound, balanced or unbalanced inputs and outputs.
On the working one there is a short click after switching from unbalanced to balanced, but on the non working one there is no click.
I opened it and the first input capacytor at the 12V input was blown of an had 220yf instead 330.
I changed ist with a working one, but that was'nt the problem.
I measured all the voltages at the testpoints on the board and all are ok, the tubes are glowing.

Did anybody has a complete schematic from the P20 and an idea where could be the problem?


----------



## lantian

Cobra71 said:


> Hello, I'reading for some time in headfy org, but never postet something till now.
> I also own two P20 and one of it stopped working from one day to the other.
> I can switch it on but there is no sound, balanced or unbalanced inputs and outputs.
> On the working one there is a short click after switching from unbalanced to balanced, but on the non working one there is no click.
> ...


Check if the relay is in order, seems like might have died.


----------



## Cobra71

Thx for the answer, the one relay behind the xlr connector has gnd and 12V, so it seems so that it is switched.
The other relay behind the led screen has 12V and 11,9V on the Input, so it can't switch.
I'm not sure where the relays are for, one for switching between balanced and unbalanced and the other a mute relay?


----------



## lantian

Cobra71 said:


> Thx for the answer, the one relay behind the xlr connector has gnd and 12V, so it seems so that it is switched.
> The other relay behind the led screen has 12V and 11,9V on the Input, so it can't switch.
> I'm not sure where the relays are for, one for switching between balanced and unbalanced and the other a mute relay?


Yes, should be configured like that, one mutes and the other switches between them, if either one is dead signal won't get through.


----------



## Cobra71 (Mar 2, 2022)

OK, i will try if the other relay works by switching between balanced and unbalanced.
Am I right that boths relays will bei driven by the chip behind the volume knob?

EDIT: I switched back and force between both inputs and outputs and in no case one of the relays got 12V on the coil, it is nearly 0V.
The resistance of the coil of both relays is ~550 Ohm, that's the same value like in the specifications of the relays, so it couldn't be a shorted "freilaufdiode" or broken coil.

All OP's have both voltages +16V and -16V and on all other legs I measure 0,08V against ground.

In germany we say "I'm at the end of my latin" 

EDIT2: One step further...I pulled the gnd pin of the coils to ground with my amperemeter, the relays switch and I got Music out of the P20 and it sounds clear and good.
The Problem could be the transistors that pull the coils to ground or the cpu that does the job has a problem.
But its the same cpu that does the volume regulation and input / output configuration, so the cpu himself works.


----------



## DBaldock9

Cobra71 said:


> OK, i will try if the other relay works by switching between balanced and unbalanced.
> Am I right that boths relays will bei driven by the chip behind the volume knob?
> 
> EDIT: I switched back and force between both inputs and outputs and in no case one of the relays got 12V on the coil, it is nearly 0V.
> ...


(*Emphasis added)*

It's interesting that your P20 has ±16 VDC at the op-amps.
The P20 I bought several years ago has ±18 VDC at the 4x DIP-8 sockets (one of the mods I installed) - which limits the variety of op-amps that can be tried in the amp.
Since the ±18 VDC comes from the custom switching power supply transformer (near the back panel +12 VDC input jack), and not from any "user" adjustable voltage regulators, I'm stuck with that high voltage.

Does your amp have a Revision number or letter listed on the circuit board silkscreen?
When I get home from work this evening, I'll post whether my P20 has a Revision listed.


----------



## Cobra71 (Mar 4, 2022)

I am at work, but at the weekend I will look for a revision on the Board.

I located the area where the relays will be switched from.





It is the section with the transistors over the cpu.

The both ones in the middle of the transistor network are connected to the ones in front of the relays.



I wonder where they are connected with, and if it could be a voltage monitoring that stops switching relays when voltages aren't ok.
I will check th +/-18V patches and the capacitors for that, because I have only around 16V at both.


----------



## Cobra71




----------



## DBaldock9

I didn't see any Revision info on the top of the circuit board, or the outside of my P20's case.
.
This is a photo of the ±18 VDC test points, which come from the little square transformer, and feed the op-amps -
.


----------



## Cobra71

The both electrolyte capacitors have 670yf an 640yf, I think that's OK for 680yf caps.

Am I right that from the 12v DC would made a oscillating circuit that feed the little transformer with ac that has two outputs.
These outputs use one diode and the 680yf cap to do the 18v dc in positive and negative line.
From these both the two voltage regulators produce the negative and positive 7V dc?

It's the question if the caps with 670 and 640 are enough to built stable 18v from the single diode dc.


----------



## Cobra71 (Mar 6, 2022)

I measured that the 115V for the heater also only has 111V, the ac for the 18V only has 34,5V and both DC. Voltages have 15,64V instead 18V.
The circuit in front of the transformer oscillates with 45 kHz.
The quistion is if these voltages are. Critical and part of the main problem.


----------



## trollchu (Mar 20, 2022)

Yesterday, my Loxjie exhibited some type of power failure where it wouldn't boot and instead would flick on and flick off. Not assuming it was the amp, I assumed that the power supply was the cause and tested the Loxjie with a different 12v power supply and my Loxjie actually went up in smoke making me realize that maybe my issue was indeed my amp. The smoke seemed to stem from the (internal) rear of the unit near the power input and my unit is roughly three years old, any tips on my next course of action? I would like my Loxjie to live.


----------



## Cobra71

trollchu said:


> Yesterday, my Loxjie exhibited some type of power failure where it wouldn't boot and instead would flick on and flick off. Not assuming it was the amp, I assumed that the power supply was the cause and tested the Loxjie with a different 12v power supply and my Loxjie actually went up in smoke making me realize maybe my issue was indeed my amp. The smoke seemed to stem from the (internal) rear of the unit near the power input and my unit is roughly three years old, any tips on my next course of action? I would like my Loxjie to live.


OMG I think you changed polarity or the power supply had more than 12V.

Can you make a. Picture from the smoked area. 

There are two voltage regulators, they can be changed if burned, but if the little transformer is burned your Amp couldn't be repaired., because you won't find data to the transformer.


----------



## trollchu

Cobra71 said:


> OMG I think you changed polarity or the power supply had more than 12V.
> 
> Can you make a. Picture from the smoked area.
> 
> There are two voltage regulators, they can be changed if burned, but if the little transformer is burned your Amp couldn't be repaired., because you won't find data to the transformer.


The second power supply was rated for 12V 10A. 

Posting two pictures, and the board still smells pretty smokey.


----------



## Cobra71 (Mar 20, 2022)




----------



## Cobra71 (Mar 20, 2022)

10A power supply is very much, but no problem if your P20 is ok.
Are you sure that you have used the right polarity?

Did you have a multimeter? 

If you are lucky, only the both transistors are blown, and not the transformer. 

I think you should change them and test.


----------



## trollchu

Cobra71 said:


> 10A power supply is very much, but no problem if your P20 is ok.
> Are you sure that you have used the right polarity?
> 
> Did you have a multimeter?
> ...


For the polarity, it is possible that I didn't replace the adapter when I changed out the power supply, and I'd have to assume that is the case. I also do not have a multimeter.


----------



## trollchu

If I am able to access one, however, how would I check the voltage on the transistors and the transformer?


----------



## Cobra71

trollchu said:


> If I am able to access one, however, how would I check the voltage on the transistors and the transformer?


The Multimeter is to test the polarity on the connector of the power supply. 

I think it was false, and. Then 10a are a problem, because the transistors only can take 3a, but only in the right direction. 

I think the transistors should be changed and with a little luck there is nothing else burned. 

The best to check after replacement would be a labor power suplly, where you can adjust to 0,5A.

The both transistors are the power Amp for the transformer input.


----------



## Giova

A month ago my loxjie died while I was trying to solder a button to turn on and off a fan. However, I realize after a while that the polarity of the cables was wrong and something started to smoke. I tried to reconnect it but none of the rails seem to work, i think that something is shorting but I can't find which component.
In yellow I quickly underlined what presents a tension but I don't know how to go on and check what the problem is. Does anyone know how to proceed?


----------



## Cobra71 (Apr 20, 2022)

Omg, what have you done with the board, it looks like you have bitten the edge.

What you should check is if there is the ac voltage at the primary side of the little transformer, but you need a device that can measure ac voltages with a high frequency, the best would be a oscilloscope.
You can see the right voltage and kHz on one of the last sides of the thread.
If the voltage is ok you should check the both voltages on the secondary side of the transformer.


----------



## Ufanco

Cobra71 said:


> Omg, what have you done with the board, it looks like you have bitten the edge.
> 
> What you should check is if there is the ac voltage at the primary side of the little transformer, but you need a device that can measure ac voltages with a high frequency, the best would be a oscilloscope.
> You can see the right voltage and kHz on one of the last sides of the thread.
> If the voltage is ok you should check the both voltages on the secondary side of the transformer.



Yummy yummy I have a Loxjie in my tummy. Sorry couldn’t help myself if your looking for a replacement unit let me know.


----------



## Giova (May 1, 2022)

Cobra71 said:


> Omg, what have you done with the board, it looks like you have bitten the edge.
> 
> What you should check is if there is the ac voltage at the primary side of the little transformer, but you need a device that can measure ac voltages with a high frequency, the best would be a oscilloscope.
> You can see the right voltage and kHz on one of the last sides of the thread.
> If the voltage is ok you should check the both voltages on the secondary side of the transformer.


For the hole by mistake I drilled it and then cut it out as best I could to verify that there are no tracks cut.


----------



## Giova

I finally managed to turn it on, however checking with the multimeter none of the rails seem to work except for the tube leds, maybe it's me that's doing it wrong. At no load the consumption is about 0.5w while with the tubes inserted it goes to 5w getting hot. I could not check if the audio came out but now I don't know how to go on.

Thanks for other tips


----------



## Death_Block

Quick question, I've purchased a ifi hip dac and plan on running it through the Loxjie P20 however no cables were included in the box. the data plug on the ifi is a male usb-A, are there cables that fit for usb-A to 3pin xlr? I found ingle ended 3 pin but no double ended? There are also plenty of usb-A to RCA floating around, will that just work as well? Any help would be excellent.


----------



## smashey

Death_Block said:


> Quick question, I've purchased a ifi hip dac and plan on running it through the Loxjie P20 however no cables were included in the box. the data plug on the ifi is a male usb-A, are there cables that fit for usb-A to 3pin xlr? I found ingle ended 3 pin but no double ended? There are also plenty of usb-A to RCA floating around, will that just work as well? Any help would be excellent.


Hi Death Block
What I think your asking is are there any suitable audio cables? The USB connections you mention are just for the Hip DAC. As its iFi then there is a balanced output on a 4.4mm 'Pentacon' connector and you can use that to feed the XLR inputs of the Loxjie. These are always going to work out more expensive than the single ended solution of 3.5mm stereo jack to twin RCA. I can't vouch for the quality but here's an example of the former...https://www.amazon.com/4-4mm-Balanced-Headphone-Adapter-Silver/dp/B07WSRRN1X


----------



## Death_Block

smashey said:


> Hi Death Block
> What I think your asking is are there any suitable audio cables? The USB connections you mention are just for the Hip DAC. As its iFi then there is a balanced output on a 4.4mm 'Pentacon' connector and you can use that to feed the XLR inputs of the Loxjie. These are always going to work out more expensive than the single ended solution of 3.5mm stereo jack to twin RCA. I can't vouch for the quality but here's an example of the former...https://www.amazon.com/4-4mm-Balanced-Headphone-Adapter-Silver/dp/B07WSRRN1X


seems like a simple solution. At what levels should the 4.4 balanced out be fed into the P20?


----------



## smashey

Death_Block said:


> seems like a simple solution. At what levels should the 4.4 balanced out be fed into the P20?


I've no direct experience with the iFi, your headphones or source material so couldn't begin to guess but common sense would say try about 2/3rds gain on the Hip DAC and see what sort of level you need to set the P20 at for comfortable listening. If its Very low then back off the Hip DAC and if its very low then give the iFi more gain. Listen out for any distortion creeping in.


----------



## Death_Block

smashey said:


> I've no direct experience with the iFi, your headphones or source material so couldn't begin to guess but common sense would say try about 2/3rds gain on the Hip DAC and see what sort of level you need to set the P20 at for comfortable listening. If its Very low then back off the Hip DAC and if its very low then give the iFi more gain. Listen out for any distortion creeping in.


ah right, so it being a balanced 4.4 headphone plug and not a line out, it wont overload the P20? I guess I can fiddle with it for the optimum levels. Either a zx507 / phone ifi for source and HD700 cans


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## Glaven

I'm selling my P20 if anyone is interested. 
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/loxjie-p20.28391/


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## oldkid

Glaven said:


> I'm selling my P20 if anyone is interested.
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/loxjie-p20.28391/


Too bad, I have already bought one on Amazon for the same price. By far, the best amp I have heard! What valves did you used with it?


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## Death_Block

oldkid said:


> Too bad, I have already bought one on Amazon for the same price. By far, the best amp I have heard! What valves did you used with it?


Is balanced input a 'must' for this amp? I've got one but still digging around for the correct cables


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## oldkid (Jul 13, 2022)

Death_Block said:


> Is balanced input a 'must' for this amp? I've got one but still digging around for the correct cables


To be honest, I haven't even bothered to try the single ended input/output yet. There's no way this thing can compete with my Aune X7s with a single ended source. With a full balanced circuit, to my surprise, it actually outperforms the much pricier Aune amp. Better separation, soundstage, imaging, timbre and texture from the balanced outputs of my DACs


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## Death_Block

oldkid said:


> To be honest, I haven't even bothered to try the single ended input/output yet. There's no way this thing can compete with my Aune X7s with a single ended source. With a full balanced circuit, to my surprise, it actually outperforms the much pricier Aune amp. Better separation, soundstage, imaging, timbre and texture from the balanced outputs of my DACs


I've tried SE input and 4 pin xlr output, which is futile I know, and wasn't impressed with the sound. But from other people 's impressions SE is quite crap on this amp. Can't wait to sort balanced input cabling.


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## Ufanco

I was using the this cable with my Loxjie P20 i’m going add it to classified listing With the Loxjie p20. Sounded great with the Loxjie but upgraded to new tube amp and dac so no longer needed.


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## oldkid

Ufanco said:


> I was using the this cable with my Loxjie P20 i’m going add it to classified listing With the Loxjie p20. Sounded great with the Loxjie but upgraded to new tube amp and dac so no longer needed.


The cable I use is a little less expensive but it sounds great with all my balanced DACs


https://www.amazon.fr/gp/aw/d/B07MD397PG?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title


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## Death_Block

Money is tight so it's got to to wait. For now the balanced with the ifi hip DAC is great.


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## Death_Block

oldkid said:


> The cable I use is a little less expensive but it sounds great with all my balanced DACs
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.fr/gp/aw/d/B07MD397PG?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title


ATM running balanced from zx507 so will need the 4.4


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## TheDeafMonk

New 6V power supply and New tubes OMG this little thing sounds amazing I picked a used one for $65 Mint but with chanel imbalance because of dying tube.


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## Death_Block

Still haven't fired my one up lol


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## iFi audio

TheDeafMonk said:


> New 6V power supply and New tubes OMG this little thing sounds amazing I picked a used one for $65 Mint but with chanel imbalance because of dying tube.



It looks great all in red and awesome that you were able to replace tubes and enjoy it again


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## Death_Block

TheDeafMonk said:


> New 6V power supply and New tubes OMG this little thing sounds amazing I picked a used one for $65 Mint but with chanel imbalance because of dying tube.


Can you link the 6cv power supply?


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## TheDeafMonk

Death_Block said:


> Can you link the 6cv power supply?


12V 6A Power Supply Adapter - AC Adapter 100-240V 50 60HZ DC 12 Volt 6A 72W Power Converter Transformer Charger 6amp 5.5mm x 2.5mm DC Plug for LED Strips Lighting, Router CCTV Camera COOLM https://a.co/d/7B4LCVA


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## Roland de Gilead

It’s a serious thing ! I bought a P20 because my naim uniti atom is very dry and analytic and i wanted to try tubes. I bought cable for my fiio M11too. 
Wait a minut, how this little thing could do this music ? Both my focal clear and my hd 598 had a real improuvement. It’s smooth, natural and musical. Particularyl in the symetric way outpout. I’m only symetric on the input. I wait for my adaptator for my linear alimentation teddy pardo in 12v to try. But for the tubes, i tried some new one and i prefer the original one even if nobody like them. Maybe i’ll buy another one for my bedroom, at this cost it’s the chipest gear that offer me this pleasure. Incredible.


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## warbles

Roland de Gilead said:


> It’s a serious thing ! I bought a P20 because my naim uniti atom is very dry and analytic and i wanted to try tubes. I bought cable for my fiio M11too.
> Wait a minut, how this little thing could do this music ? Both my focal clear and my hd 598 had a real improuvement. It’s smooth, natural and musical. Particularyl in the symetric way outpout. I’m only symetric on the input. I wait for my adaptator for my linear alimentation teddy pardo in 12v to try. But for the tubes, i tried some new one and i prefer the original one even if nobody like them. Maybe i’ll buy another one for my bedroom, at this cost it’s the chipest gear that offer me this pleasure. Incredible.


Sp you say everything sounds better to you than it does when using your JDS Labs Atom?


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## dougms3

warbles said:


> Sp you say everything sounds better to you than it does when using your JDS Labs Atom?


I think he's referring to this.

https://www.amazon.com/Naim-Uniti-C...6dc1003aedff27017b8172014ca8d0&language=en_US

I use my p20 preamped by my audio-gd master19, it has upraded caps and ifi ipowerx power supply, sounds great.  It doesn't get the credit it should, really a shame that because its inexpensive people don't think it would sound good.  

Never getting rid of it.


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## warbles

dougms3 said:


> I think he's referring to this.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Naim-Uniti-C...6dc1003aedff27017b8172014ca8d0&language=en_US
> 
> ...


Ha! Yes i read 'naim' but thought it was, you know, a dyslexic 'main' ! 

Thanks for enlightenment!!


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## dpump

Best tubes for P20: Russian 6N3P-DR. Must be the DR version.


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## TheDeafMonk

Love mine.


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## Roland de Gilead

I wrote that it’s better than my naim uniti headfone edition. If i plug in symetric on my naim or in my fiio.


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## iFi audio

dougms3 said:


> I use my p20 preamped by my audio-gd master19, it has upraded caps and ifi ipowerx power supply, sounds great


Thanks for using ou PSU


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## Mellowship

The p20 has astonishingly silent background and a great balance between macro and micro dynamics. In my book, this is really high-end sound.


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## Roland de Gilead

I do not totally agree. For me the 3.5 output is very noisy and take all the radio frequency and put it in my ears. The xlr output is silent.


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## Mellowship

Roland de Gilead said:


> I do not totally agree. For me the 3.5 output is very noisy and take all the radio frequency and put it in my ears. The xlr output is silent.


It's possible. I don't recall ever using the single ended output on my p20! 😅


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## CADCAM

I use both outputs and both are quiet in my setup.


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## Roland de Gilead

I Have some interference with Bluetooth and wifi. It depend also of your source. With my naim, it’s rather silent. With my fiio plugged for charging it’s inaudible.


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## Trihexagonal

Iightning said:


> I even compared it to Fosi Audio P2 which is a $50 hybrid tube amp which is half the price and in my opinion sounded much better than the Loxjie P20.


Since I just bought myself one on ebay for $40... It's the first one I've ever had, but  even with Tinnitus 24/7 for over half my life I'm hearing sounds for the first time in songs I've listened to many times.






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