# Audio-GD DI-20



## soundlogic

Has anyone purchased or heard the new Audio-GD DI-20? As one who has tried a number of “usb digital interfaces”
Mutec MC3+USB, Kitsune’ tuned Singxter SU1, and currently Gustard U-16...this Audio-GD looks like beast, especially the DI-20 HE with the upgraded PS.
check it out: http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN.htm


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## JaMo (Oct 30, 2019)

soundlogic said:


> Has anyone purchased or heard the new Audio-GD DI-20? As one who has tried a number of “usb digital interfaces”
> Mutec MC3+USB, Kitsune’ tuned Singxter SU1, and currently Gustard U-16...this Audio-GD looks like beast, especially the DI-20 HE with the upgraded PS.
> check it out: http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN.htm



Yes,
I have ordered the HE-version. it's a beast all right. I have the U16 (two of them) to compare to/run against. Sure look forward to this delivery. Report is coming.
/Jan


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## soundlogic

Jan; Thanks for responding so quickly. I would definitely consider the HE as well, but considering the cost of a GOOD power supply, seems like the price is commensurate. Do you have an ETA for delivery yet? Congratulations! BTW, I am using the Gustard 10MHZ master clock with my U16, and I like the idea that a master clock can be used with the DI-20 as well. Keep us posted!


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## JaMo

No ETA yet. I also use a OCXO-masterclock with my U16's. It pushes the performance further. I hope the new interface is a home run. The competition is high and Kingwa knows it well. The 10MHz EXT XO input makes it even more attractive.
/Jan


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## FredA

Got the HE too. About delivery, there is a 15-day lead time on my quote, so i assume i am getting it in three weeks.


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## Pappas3278

Glad to be apart of the club.  Non-HE version with the 90/98M clicks w/metal shield.  Why not right?

15-day lead time also on my quote.


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## FredA

Welcome to the club! I think there should be a lot of us eventually.


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## Pappas3278 (Oct 30, 2019)

Thanks Fred!

Hey, can anyone speculate as to what Kingwa meant from part of the DI-20 description? 

TV?

_"Built in the Amanero USB interface that is the most compatible and steady , support WIN, OSX, IOS and Linux , *and had been test with some TV that is based on Android system*. (Has not test with Android phone yet )._


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## FredA

Perhaps that some tvs support usb audio now, can't see anything else.


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## Pappas3278

That'll be interesting to see about TV support.

I guess that last thing that isn't clear is 'Parallel' mode vs 'Serial' mode.  Little help?


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## FredA

Signals can be processed either using parallel processing,i.e. a word a time, or bit per bit (serial). This can change the sound a little, hence the choice being offered.


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## Pappas3278

FredA said:


> Signals can be processed either using parallel processing,i.e. a word a time, or bit per bit (serial). This can change the sound a little, hence the choice being offered.


Got it.  Do you have a preference Fred or is this more of a personal choice as to what sounds better?


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## FredA

Haven't tried it yet of course with the di. With the dac fws, i would say the parallels probably have more res. but one of my favorite fw is tda_asy3, if not my favorite, not sure and it is a serial implementation. Matter of synergy and tastes...


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## Pappas3278

FredA said:


> Haven't tried it yet of course with the di. With the dac fws, i would say the parallels probably have more res. but one of my favorite fw is tda_asy3, if not my favorite, not sure and it is a serial implementation. Matter of synergy and tastes...


Interesting that you say that about tda_asy3 FW.  

I too flashed back to that after trying DOP FW for a day or two.  I heard what a few others experienced; treble roll-off, boomier bass and slightly bloomed mid-range.  Not terrible but just not my cup of tea.


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## JaMo

Hi, 
I had a short correspondence with Kingwa this morning. He reported that the DI HE outperformed his CDP (Kingwa's reference). Good news for us.
/Jan


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## FredA

This means it is basically state-of-the-art. I knew i had made a great purchase!


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## UsoppNoKami

I have put down my deposit and ordered the HE edition of the new DI from StarsPicker here in Malaysia today.  Looking forward to it


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## FredA

Kingwa said to a headfier that it beats his own reference CD transport, which has always been Kingwa's benchmark. This means it is one of the best units, if not the best unit available at any price IMO. So....


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## UsoppNoKami

FredA said:


> Kingwa said to a headfier that it beats his own reference CD transport, which has always been Kingwa's benchmark. This means it is one of the best units, if not the best unit available at any price IMO. So....



Time to organise a U16 bonfire viewing party, livestreamed and recorded for all time XD


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## FredA

Looking forward to getting rid of that piece of c.... Sounds great but the most unstable gear i have ever tried by miles.


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## Toni-Mang

Di-20 90/98 ordered. Waiting for my crappy broken U16 for warrenty repair. No sound, only noise and waiting for 6 weeks due to tax issues in china...the manufactor payed tax for his own product. And when it is fixed, an come back, i have to pay tax additional...? Free Trade is the name of the game....ups ot...
I will compare amanero iso card, u16 and the psa pwt via i2s in the r8 with the di20....we will see...


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## FredA

Toni-Mang said:


> Di-20 90/98 ordered. Waiting for my crappy broken U16 for warrenty repair. No sound, only noise and waiting for 6 weeks due to tax issues in china...the manufactor payed tax for his own product. And when it is fixed, an come back, i have to pay tax additional...? Free Trade is the name of the game....ups ot...
> I will compare amanero iso card, u16 and the psa pwt via i2s in the r8 with the di20....we will see...


Welcome! 

The Di20 should not disappoint.


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## Toni-Mang

Thx...the U16 "sounds" very good...we will see...but i am shure, the d20 will be the king of ddc's...and we have the benefit of development fun from kingwa..


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## Pappas3278

Audio-GD updated the ship dates for the new DIs.

DI-20 = November 13th
DI-20HE = November 28th


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## FredA

Pappas3278 said:


> Audio-GD updated the ship dates for the new DIs.
> 
> DI-20 = November 13th
> DI-20HE = November 28th


This is for the second batch of DI-20HE i assume. Impressive sale's figures.The di-20 sells less it seems.


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## newabc

May I ask a question? If I use the DI-20 as a re-clocker to handle the SPDIF input and output to DAC, is it better to have a 10Mhz clock signal to the input and not so good Accusilicon 45/49M clock inside, or 10Mhz clock signal and Accusilicon 90/98M inside clock together? By the way, the DI-20 summary said "the 90/98M Edition clocks had solder on board", not upgradable as TCXO and 45/49M clock.


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## Jackula

newabc said:


> May I ask a question? If I use the DI-20 as a re-clocker to handle the SPDIF input and output to DAC, is it better to have a 10Mhz clock signal to the input and not so good Accusilicon 45/49M clock inside, or 10Mhz clock signal and Accusilicon 90/98M inside clock together? By the way, the DI-20 summary said "the 90/98M Edition clocks had solder on board", not upgradable as TCXO and 45/49M clock.



Using a 10Mhz clock will disable the internal Accusilicon clock. And using a 10Mhz clock for both your DAC and the DI will yield better performance, even if the 10Mhz clock is slightly inferior to the internal clock.


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## newabc

Jackula said:


> Using a 10Mhz clock will disable the internal Accusilicon clock. And using a 10Mhz clock for both your DAC and the DI will yield better performance, even if the 10Mhz clock is slightly inferior to the internal clock.


Thanks!


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## FredA

Jackula said:


> Using a 10Mhz clock will disable the internal Accusilicon clock. And using a 10Mhz clock for both your DAC and the DI will yield better performance, even if the 10Mhz clock is slightly inferior to the internal clock.


Do you have the r7he already?


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## Jackula

FredA said:


> Do you have the r7he already?



Not yet, my credit card rolls over on the 9th and that's when I'll be making the payment. Kingwa said the R7HE and M2H are in stock so they can be shipped immediately, fingers crossed for delivery next week!

The countdown to the 9th is killing me!


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## FredA

Jackula said:


> Not yet, my credit card rolls over on the 9th and that's when I'll be making the payment. Kingwa said the R7HE and M2H are in stock so they can be shipped immediately, fingers crossed for delivery next week!
> 
> The countdown to the 9th is killing me!


Be patient! And then you have months of burning to do on the amp especially.


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## Jackula

FredA said:


> Be patient! And then you have months of burning to do on the amp especially.



Oh for sure, a friend of mine is in the speaker selling business so he is listening all the time and it took him 6 months to burn in the Master 2H. He said it went from sounding similar to his class D HypeX NCore monoblock, to categorically better than his favourite class AB amplifier worth over US$9000!


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## Pappas3278

FredA said:


> This is for the second batch of DI-20HE i assume. Impressive sale's figures.The di-20 sells less it seems.


Now that you mention it, you're probably right Fred.  That description is a little confusing on the website.


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## FredA

Jackula said:


> Oh for sure, a friend of mine is in the speaker selling business so he is listening all the time and it took him 6 months to burn in the Master 2H. He said it went from sounding similar to his class D HypeX NCore monoblock, to categorically better than his favourite class AB amplifier worth over US$9000!


The m3 is no doubt better than ncores, on all aspects. It competes with 15 to 20k amp on paper, and most likely when doing a listening comparison. Acss is substantial part of this great recipe.


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## frizzup (Nov 7, 2019)

FredA said:


> The m3 is no doubt better than ncores, on all aspects. It competes with 15 to 20k amp on paper, and most likely when doing a listening comparison. Acss is substantial part of this great recipe.



Agreed, just bit the bullet and ordered a DI20 90/98< Edition to provide IIS interface into my Audio-GD Master 7/Master 10 combo. ACSS is a step up on other interconnects.i.e RCA/AES. My ACSS cables were custom made by Double Helix. My first Master 7 interface was the Audio-GD DI-2014 with IIS custom mod by Kingwa. Earlier this year I purchased a Gustard U16 and that was a step-up from the DI-2014, I also added an external 10mhz world clock to the Gustard and it has performed well. But always had challenges getting the Gustard USB drivers to install completely on Win19 Core. So when I heard Kingwa was coming out with a new Di and at the promo price I jumped in and ordered. Looking forward to comparing to Gustard U16. I will keep that and use with my Audio-GD Ref 5.32 Headphone rig and flick the DI-2014
Frizzup


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## FredA

frizzup said:


> Agreed, just bit the bullet and ordered a DI20 90/98< Edition to provide IIS interface into my Audio-GD Master 7/Master 10 combo. ACSS is a step up on other interconnects.i.e RCA/AES. My ACSS cables were custom made by Double Helix. My first Master 7 interface was the Audio-GD DI-2014 with IIS custom mod by Kingwa. Earlier this year I purchased a Gustard U16 and that was a step-up from the DI-2014, I also added an external 10mhz world clock to the Gustard and it has performed well. But always had challenges getting the Gustard USB drivers to install completely on Win19 Core. So when I heard Kingwa was coming out with a new Di and at the promo price I jumped in and ordered. Looking forward to comparing to Gustard U16. I will keep that and use with my Audio-GD Ref 5.32 Headphone rig and flick the DI-2014
> Frizzup


We will all receive it pretty much at the same time it seems (first batch, i mean) . I don't remember Kingwa selling so many of a new item in such little time. Except maybe the r2r 11  but it is an entry level component. One great thing is having included the regeneration for such a reasonable amount. Hard to resist that offer. Looks like a su-6 killer.


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## JaMo

A well deserved sell success for Kingwa, indeed. I am excited to get the DIHE.
/Jan


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## FredA

JaMo said:


> A well deserved sell success for Kingwa, indeed. I am excited to get the DIHE.
> /Jan


Well deserved indeed. Kingwa is the man.


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## newabc (Nov 8, 2019)

Information from Kingwa's web forum, a board admin of the forum visited Kingwa and he compared CD7 and DI-20he as transport, Mac with stock hard drive vs flash drive, and raspberry pi with flash drive and Kingwa's power supply as source.
http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&Id=31325&page=1&star=3
http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&Id=31325&page=1&star=4

Below, I post the translation of his posts about the impression here, most of them done by google translate and I adjust it a little bit on the translation only:

"Compared with the DI20 of the regenerative power supply, the sound of the CD7 is relatively compressed, and the sound image localization is relatively vague. In summary, the DI20 is like high definition, the CD7 belongs to the standard definition, and the voice of the human voice is obviously two different levels. As for the BNC and HDMI connections, each has its own characteristics."






"The above CD transport and the digital interface comparison, using the same CD to grab the track out of the file. However, Kingwa’s grasp of the track is not using EAC, and the file qualities are slightly lower. I also tried the Raspberry Pi in the same field and found a strange phenomenon. The flash drive does have a great impact on the sound quality. The specific performance is that the same file, Apple laptop's stock hard drive is the best, followed by the flash drive in the Raspberry Pi, the worst is the flash drive in the Apple laptop, the following picture is the Raspberry PI made by Kingwa specifically for his old friends, Pure A DC power supply, you can put the Raspberry Pi motherboard built in, the small board in the upper left corner is the Raspberry Pi. It is said that this power supply is compatible with rock64 board. Although this integrated Raspberry Pi design is not original, according to the experience of the younger brother, the parallel regulated DC power supply is powered by rock64, which is better than Taobao's STUDER linear power supply. Regardless of the convenience of use, the sound quality of Kingwa's power supply is worth looking forward to. In addition, the regenerative version and the normal version of the interface has huge difference , so basically listen to the regenerative version, the younger brother can not help but preach, the user who ordered the regenerative version is not expected to be disappointed."









"First, when the DI20 plays the track, it is similar to the performance of the CD7FV. Second, users who choose DI20HE are very visionary. Third, If this interface and the coaxial output/input are both Audio-gd's products, the coaxial's performance is better than HDMI."


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## newabc

> "Third, If this interface and the coaxial output/input are both Audio-gd's products, the coaxial's performance is better than HDMI."


I thought IIS was better than SPDIF before.


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## FredA

newabc said:


> I thought IIS was better than SPDIF before.


Kingwa has worked on coaxial acss to improve it, calling it the second generation,  and on both the SPDIF sending and receiving side to improve performance,  as i understand,  These are great news for the HE and regular version buyers.  I think in both cases, the Gustard u16 should be beaten. One should consider going acss bnc as it should be at least equal performance, and even better according to this person.


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## Il Cuffiotto

newabc said:


> I thought IIS was better than SPDIF before.


...but what about the format allowed by SPDIF? Probably not more than dsd128 DoP...right?


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## FredA (Nov 8, 2019)

Il Cuffiotto said:


> ...but what about the format allowed by SPDIF? Probably not more than dsd128 DoP...right?


I don't see it stated anywhere. I would assume it will be good for dsd256.


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## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> I don't see it stated anywhere. I would assume it will be good for dsd256.


Well...it would be nice not to be forced to use HDMI for higher resolutions to achieve best results, and a good piece of news. I hope so, but I still have some doubt...who will be first guinea pig??


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## FredA

Il Cuffiotto said:


> Well...it would be nice not to be forced to use HDMI for higher resolutions to achieve best results, and a good piece of news. I hope so, but I still have some doubt...who will be first guinea pig??


Well i will be able to try both hdmi and bnc.


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## newabc

FredA said:


> Kingwa has worked on coaxial acss to improve it, calling it the second generation,  and on both the SPDIF sending and receiving side to improve performance,  as i understand,  These are great news for the HE and regular version buyers.  I think in both cases, the Gustard u16 should be beaten. One should consider going acss bnc as it should be at least equal performance, and even better according to this person.



Kingwa said to me that the new coaxial acss is compatible to the most DACs. A magic! Before, when I saw the DI-20's introduction page, I though the 2nd generation SPDIF acss is a new protocol to the traditional SPDIF.


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## FredA

newabc said:


> Kingwa said to me that the new coaxial acss is compatible to the most DACs. A magic! Before, when I saw the DI-20's introduction page, I though the 2nd generation SPDIF acss is a new protocol to the traditional SPDIF.


I know Kingwa has projects with spdif but the evolution in this case is with transmitting a current signal, not with the spdif protocol itself. As mentioned, any dac with standard 75ohm spdif input should benefit. So it basically means improved signal transmission, as if you were using a better cable, just like acss applied to analog signals.


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## darren700

just ordered a DI-20 Accusilicon 90/98M Edition. 
Will be feeding my R2R-7. Both are connected to a HE-350 so It should be a pretty damn nice combo. Cant wait to replace the U16! way to buggy for my taste.

I actually have a second U16 feeding my R1 that never worked quite right with I2S so im using SPDIF into the R1. hopefully I can get a second DI-20 eventually for my R1 so I can use the I2S


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## dacver

darren700 said:


> just ordered a DI-20 Accusilicon 90/98M Edition.
> Will be feeding my R2R-7. Both are connected to a HE-350 so It should be a pretty damn nice combo. Cant wait to replace the U16! way to buggy for my taste.
> 
> I actually have a second U16 feeding my R1 that never worked quite right with I2S so im using SPDIF into the R1. hopefully I can get a second DI-20 eventually for my R1 so I can use the I2S


That should be the same as the di20HE version because of your HE 350 power.  Congats.
Me, i just also order the Di20HE. I just cannot wait for the review to come. I think I trust Mr. Kingwa so much because all my purchased made were without any listening trial. Hope it is better or equaled to U16.


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## darren700

dacver said:


> That should be the same as the di20HE version because of your HE 350 power.  Congats.
> Me, i just also order the Di20HE. I just cannot wait for the review to come. I think I trust Mr. Kingwa so much because all my purchased made were without any listening trial. Hope it is better or equaled to U16.



I feel the same, I have never been disappointed yet by an Audio-GD Product. I bought the R2R-7 as soon as it was announced and that gamble turned out amazing. The HE-350 was a gamble as well with no reviews available. I swapped the plugs to Furutech outlets and it has far exceeded all expectations. very happy I bought a HE-350 while it was still available, I actually wish I had bought a second HE-350 for my headphone setup!  

Note I read on the R2R-7 thread that Kingwa owns a U16 also. So in my mind, any DDC that he releases would defiantly outperform the U16 or he wouldn't bother releasing it. i think that this DI-20 will really be something special.


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## FredA

The HE version beats Kingwa's own high-end cd transport fair and square and is the first ddc that could do this. What is more, the bnc out is as good as hdmi. So it should be something very special.


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## newabc (Nov 9, 2019)

> "Third, If this interface and the coaxial output/input are both Audio-gd's products, the coaxial's performance is better than HDMI."


Kingwa replied on this thread about this issue(It can be translate by google translate):
http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&Id=31325&page=1&star=4

Based on the google translate, and I adjusted a little bit on translation:
"The comparing is using 24rmb Ugreen HDMI cable and 200rmb Canare coaxial cable, transmitting IIS by HDMI cable is not professional enough, it should have higher requirements for the wire, so it may be different because of that."

Note: US dollar to Chinese Yuan(rmb) is 7.00 now. Based on the 24rmb price and the brand name, I checked taobao.com and think it should be a HDMI 2.0 cable. I also think the Canare coaxial cable is the same grade of coaxial cables sold by Audio-gd.

In another reply of this thread, Kingwa explained why he uses common cables in this demo(I also did a little bit adjustment on the translation of google translate):
"As a demo, you can't use too high grade configuration. so I used the 2012 version Apple laptop to install WIN7, the most common Foobar2000 playback, the high grading wires can not be used, all are in the common grade."


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## motberg

I was thinking that if the new SPDIF coax can handlle fairly high resolution files (384k PCM and ?? DSD) - and is similar quality to HDMI i2s -  then this would give some folks a welcome alternative to device placement as SPDIF can use longer cables.


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## JaMo

motberg said:


> (384k PCM and ?? DSD)



384k allows up to DSD128 DoP. The resolution of DSD128 is approx 176.4k which means that DoP doubles the amount of data. Pretty expensive overhead but very positive as the SPDIF is a much more robust method/protocol than I2S over HDMI. I2S is primarily an inside chassie protocol.
/Jan


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## tumpux

If I may ask, what is your typical setup with ddc such as this?

Is it PC to DDC to DAC?


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## Il Cuffiotto

JaMo said:


> 384k allows up to DSD128 DoP. The resolution of DSD128 is approx 176.4k which means that DoP doubles the amount of data. Pretty expensive overhead but very positive as the SPDIF is a much more robust method/protocol than I2S over HDMI. I2S is primarily an inside chassie protocol.
> /Jan


We all have to consider these specs of Kingwa dacs inputs:

USB / I2S mode: 44.1kHz - 384kHz /32Bit
USB / I2S modeSD native 64-512
 Coaxial mode: 44.1kHz - 192kHz /24Bit
Optical mode: 44.1kHz - 192kHz /24Bit

This means that even if new DI20 bnc output is able to manage dsd native, and not just DoP, we will never have full decoding ability thru that connection...


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## FredA

tumpux said:


> If I may ask, what is your typical setup with ddc such as this?
> 
> Is it PC to DDC to DAC?


This is what Kingwa used beat. his reference cd drive. I intend to keep using my usbridge with two linear supply and the intona. I will test without the intona and keep whatever sounds best.


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## FredA (Nov 10, 2019)

The regular DI-20 is as good  as Kingwa"s ref.transport according comments by Chinese forumers who have been at Kingwa's listening room.

As a comparison, the Gustard u16 slighly beats my oppo cd/dvd drive, which is far from being a ref, and i use a cheap bluejeans cable with it. So i guess we all should get an upgrade.


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## JaMo

Il Cuffiotto said:


> We all have to consider these specs of Kingwa dacs inputs:
> 
> USB / I2S mode: 44.1kHz - 384kHz /32Bit
> USB / I2S modeSD native 64-512
> ...



Sorry, but I don't understand Your post. 
As far as I know, SPDIF, AES/EBU and Toslink doesn't support Native DSD. (Source: https://blog.nativedsd.com/dsd-the-new-addiction/)
DI20 spec:
"USB : 44.1kHz - 384kHz /32Bit DSD64-512
 Coaxial input: 44.1kHz - 384kHz / Dop
Coaxial output: 44.1kHz - 384kHz"

/Jan


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## Il Cuffiotto

JaMo said:


> Sorry, but I don't understand Your post.
> As far as I know, SPDIF, AES/EBU and Toslink doesn't support Native DSD. (Source: https://blog.nativedsd.com/dsd-the-new-addiction/)
> DI20 spec:
> "USB : 44.1kHz - 384kHz /32Bit DSD64-512
> ...



You seem to have well understood...I was just saying that spdif will never accept anything but DoP. So, if we want wide compatibility without switching continuously with cables and connections, we will always use HDMI...


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## soundlogic

As a current U16 owner, and the starter of this thread...the DI20 is on my radar for sure. 
I would like to ask collectively to those who KNOW: I currently have all my gear plugged into a PS Audio P20 Power regenerator...so is it overkill, not necessary, waste of money, silly...you fill in the blank...for me to consider the HE version over the standard version??? If I was to purchase the HE version and plug it into my P-20, would that be detrimental? My gut says: get the better power supply, but considering the extra costs of the HE, I could definitely use the savings for cable upgrades, etc. I am asking for some concrete advise, as opposed to "wild-ass-guesses", which I already have plenty of. Thanks in advance, Y'all!


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## DACLadder (Nov 11, 2019)

Subscribed...I ordered the DI-20HE last week.

I was led to this thread while researching ACSS S/PDIF.  Interesting that it is suppose to sound "better" that HDMI I2S. I think Kingwa describes it as "different" sounding that some customers prefer over I2S.  We shall see.

I am ready to compare the DI-20HE to the Singxers (all 3 - SU-6, SU-1, and F1), U16, and even the Off Ramp 5.  Hopefully, the DI20HE is the last DDC I will have to buy!  That has been said many times before so not holding my breath.  But think it will be a good design!

And yes I am ready to pitch my U16 into the bonfire of regret.  The definition sums it up perfectly.

bon·fire
/ˈbänˌfī(ə)r/
 
_noun_
noun: *bonfire*; plural noun: *bonfires*
a large open-air fire used as part of a celebration, for burning trash/ waste, or as a signal.
"the smell of burning leaves from a garden bonfire"


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## darren700

DACLadder said:


> Subscribed...I ordered the DI-20HE last week.
> 
> I was led to this thread while researching ACSS S/PDIF.  Interesting that it is suppose to sound "better" that HDMI I2S. I think Kingwa describes it as "different" sounding that some customers prefer over I2S.  We shall see.
> 
> ...



I hope you are right with this being the last DDC!. If the first DI-20 performs as well as i expect I will probably use part of my christmas bonus to buy a second DI-20 for my Audio-GD R1 and Master 9 Headphone setup.
Hopefully I will be able to sell both my U16's once i have two DI-20's, if not at lease the bonfire should sound good


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## DACLadder (Nov 11, 2019)

@darren700  Which DI-20 variation did you order - TCXO, Accusilicon 45/49, or Accusilicon 90/98 ??  As a frame of reference the U16 has Accusilicon 45/49 XOs.

The cheapskate in me will sell the U16 for whatever I can get for it.  The U16 works for some people without error and sounds great when it works.

Kingwa told me that he sold his U16 because of the bugs.  He liked the sound quality of the U16 and gave him inspiration for the DI-20 design.  I hope this DI-20 will be a U16 slayer!


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## FredA

DACLadder said:


> @darren700  Which DI-20 variation did you order - TCXO, Accusilicon, 45/49, or Accusilicon 90/98 ??  As a frame of reference the U16 has Accusilion 45/49 XOs.
> 
> The cheapskate in me will sell the U16 for whatever I can get for it.  The U16 works for some people without error and sounds great when it works.
> 
> Kingwa told me that he sold his U16 because of the bugs.  He liked the sound quality of the U16 and gave him inspiration for the DI-20 design.  I hope this DI-20 will be a U16 slayer!


We, the first di20-he buyers will not know only next week as Kingwa has planned to ship on Friday, while the first DI-20s will ship on Wednesday.


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## darren700 (Nov 11, 2019)

DACLadder said:


> @darren700  Which DI-20 variation did you order - TCXO, Accusilicon 45/49, or Accusilicon 90/98 ??  As a frame of reference the U16 has Accusilicon 45/49 XOs.
> 
> The cheapskate in me will sell the U16 for whatever I can get for it.  The U16 works for some people without error and sounds great when it works.
> 
> Kingwa told me that he sold his U16 because of the bugs.  He liked the sound quality of the U16 and gave him inspiration for the DI-20 design.  I hope this DI-20 will be a U16 slayer!



I ordered the DI-20 Accusilicon 90/98 (will be powered by my HE-350) I think everyone who ordered the DI-20 is hoping its a U16 slayer! I was not aware the u16 uses Accusilicon 45/49, thanks for the info.


----------



## soundlogic

soundlogic said:


> As a current U16 owner, and the starter of this thread...the DI20 is on my radar for sure.
> I would like to ask collectively to those who KNOW: I currently have all my gear plugged into a PS Audio P20 Power regenerator...so is it overkill, not necessary, waste of money, silly...you fill in the blank...for me to consider the HE version over the standard version??? If I was to purchase the HE version and plug it into my P-20, would that be detrimental? My gut says: get the better power supply, but considering the extra costs of the HE, I could definitely use the savings for cable upgrades, etc. I am asking for some concrete advise, as opposed to "wild-ass-guesses", which I already have plenty of. Thanks in advance, Y'all!



Bueller? Anybody?


----------



## DACLadder

@soundlogic. If I used power regeneration I would just give the standard DI-20 a try!  The HE power supply just regenerates 50Hz AC before the main power transformer.  Effectively the same as the PSA.  

The HE supplies run very warm and require adequate ventilation.  And the chassis longer is another consideration.  But definitely get the 90/98 Accusilicon XOs for best sound potential.


----------



## FredA (Nov 11, 2019)

soundlogic said:


> Bueller? Anybody?


The regenerator on the di-20he is based an analog amp design. Kingwa thinks it beats any class-d design, like the ps-audio are using. Owning such He series gears, namely he9 and r7-he, i can assure you it works, and at the asking price, the di20-he is a bargain. Compared to the regular Di, it is worth the difference according  to early listening impressions from people who visited Kingwa's listening room.

I know it does not answer your question. But when Kingwa was asked if a regular version of his r7 plugged to his own he350 regenerator sounded as good as the r7-he, the answer was no. So if you wonder if the regular di connected to your ps-audio will be as good as the he, the answer is most likely no. But you can perhaps expect even better performance connecting the di20he to your  ps-audio.

Think of it, double regeneration...


----------



## FredA (Nov 11, 2019)

DACLadder said:


> @soundlogic. If I used power regeneration I would just give the standard DI-20 a try!  The HE power supply just regenerates 50Hz AC before the main power transformer.  Effectively the same as the PSA.
> 
> The HE supplies run very warm and require adequate ventilation.  And the chassis longer is another consideration.  But definitely get the 90/98 Accusilicon XOs for best sound potential.


Not so bad with dissipation, only 20w as the di pcb does not draw much itself. So i don't expect it to run hot at all.

Did not mean to contradict, just wanted to state everything i knew.


----------



## FredA

@soundlogic 

I was wrong about one detail, ps-audio base their regenerator on class-ab amplification, at least now.


----------



## Pappas3278

Has anyone received a shipping notice from Audio-GD as of yet?  The regular DI-20 was said to be shipping today, November 13th.


----------



## FredA

No news yet...


----------



## newabc

Pappas3278 said:


> Has anyone received a shipping notice from Audio-GD as of yet?  The regular DI-20 was said to be shipping today, November 13th.


Someone in China in Kingwa's forum bbs.audio-gd.com already got one. I think I can get my tracking number of shipment in a week if the regular DI-20s are being shipped out.


----------



## Pappas3278

Shipping notice just received this morning.  No tracking# yet.

About the S/PDIF connections; am I correct in thinking the standard coaxial and BNC (acss) are two different animals?

If one were to use the BNC connection, is that a special cable or would a standard coaxial cable with BNC termination work between the DI-20 and the R1 DAC?

-Mike


----------



## FredA

Pappas3278 said:


> Shipping notice just received this morning.  No tracking# yet.
> 
> About the S/PDIF connections; am I correct in thinking the standard coaxial and BNC (acss) are two different animals?
> 
> ...


No special cable needed, bnc will just make your cable better because the signal is carried as current. It will work perfecly with most dacs, and is garanteed to work with any recent audio-gd dac.


----------



## frizzup

Pappas3278 said:


> Shipping notice just received this morning.  No tracking# yet.
> 
> About the S/PDIF connections; am I correct in thinking the standard coaxial and BNC (acss) are two different animals?
> 
> ...



Got my shipping and tracking details this morning, Arrives NZ Tuesday next week via UPS (DI-20 98)

Philip


----------



## DACLadder

Have any DI-20 HEs shipped?


----------



## FredA

No news on my side. I would assume mine has shipped....


----------



## FredA

Officially shipped!


----------



## JaMo

FredA said:


> Officially shipped!



Mine too!


----------



## GU1DO

Does the DI-20 do upscale or just convert (and re-clock) from USB Tot COAX ?


----------



## FredA

GU1DO said:


> Does the DI-20 do upscale or just convert (and re-clock) from USB Tot COAX ?


Just clocks (not reclock, cause using the same clock on both side) usb out to maximize sound quality.  It reclocks the coax input however to remove jitter.


----------



## GU1DO

FredA said:


> Just clocks (not reclock, cause using the same clock on both side) usb out to maximize sound quality.  It reclocks the coax input however to remove jitter.


Thank you, i am in the mood to try new USB to COAX convertor though i am enjoying my HiFace Two and it sound amazing but why not trying new stuff specially if it was from my favorite brand,  I will wait for some feedback here before ordering, hopefully it will be good product ,

i highly recommend upgrading the power cable with Audio-GD products ,, that's very important , my M9 sound  different amp with quality power cable.


----------



## FredA

GU1DO said:


> Thank you, i am in the mood to try new USB to COAX convertor though i am enjoying my HiFace Two and it sound amazing but why not trying new stuff specially if it was from my favorite brand,  I will wait for some feedback here before ordering, hopefully it will be good product ,
> 
> i highly recommend upgrading the power cable with Audio-GD products ,, that's very important , my M9 sound  different amp with quality power cable.


Yes indeed. A friend of mine just got a r-28/a1 combo and i recommended affordable quality power cables to him. Non feedback are most sensitive to this.


----------



## newabc

I got my tracking number of a regular DI-20 90/98M today.


----------



## frizzup (Nov 18, 2019)

So the DI-20 90/98M arrived this morning one day early via UPS into New Zealand.

Installed into my HiFi rig replacing a Gustard U16.

Had some reconfiguring of my dual PC WIndows Server 2019 (Core), Audio Optimizer V3.0 and JPLAY 7D. The reconfiguring was on the AudioPC which connects to the DI-20 via a JCAT USB 2.0 PCIE card and a Double Twisted USB cable. Output from the DI-20 to my Audio-GD Master 7 is via a Wireworld Platinum 0.5m HDMI cable. The main task is loading the Amanero USB driver into Windows 2019 (Core). The tools within Audio Optimizer V3.0 helped here. Follow the instructions in this JPLAY forum thread and you will be good to go.

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/2780-amanero-under-all-modes-wasapi-asio-ks-in-ws2016-core/

Any questions just post and I'll get back to asap

So starts yet another Audio-GD burn-in, but use to these as in, DAC19-DSP/C400, C2.2, Reference 5.2, Master 7/Master 10, its an interesting journey as the stage unfolds before your ears 

Frizzup


----------



## JaMo

frizzup said:


> So the DI-20 90/98M arrived this morning one day early via UPS into New Zealand.
> 
> Installed into my HiFi rig replacing a Gustard U16.
> 
> ...



Congrats! You must be the first outside China. -Any initial impressions?
/Jan


----------



## frizzup

JaMo said:


> Congrats! You must be the first outside China. -Any initial impressions?
> /Jan


The configuring of settings/options through the buttons on the DI-20 as explained on the Audio-GD website need further detail and clarity, somewhat confusing as to what some of the options mean/do. Intially got "no sound" having installed into the my rig replacing the Gustard U16. Eventually worked out that I needed to lower the DAClink setting in the JPLAY control panel to 20mhz to get 44.1, 88.2, 96, 176.2 and 192mhz sample rates working. I typically ran the Gustard U16 with a DAClink of 45mhz. So the drivers Gustard/Amanero require quite different settings, what this will mean to the sound/stage too early to say
Frizzup


----------



## darren700

Currently with my Gustard U16 I use a Uptone ISO Regen powered by a Uptone LPS-1. The ISO Regen provides Galvanic Isolation, completely regenerates the USB signal and provides a moat to block leakage currents, I also cut the 5V USB input into the U16 via Uptones USBPCB A>B Adapter.
My USB signal is already very clean coming from a SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo but I find that the ISO Regen still helps with the U16.

However, looking at the design of the DI-20 it seems that it may render my ISO Regen redundant once It replaces my U16. 
If you look at the DI-20 PCB you can see the same style "Moat" beween the USB input and the rest of the PCB very similar to the ISO Regen. Also from their website Kingwa states "Built in the 150M high speed isolator between USB interface and FPGA signal processor. Because the isolator can effect the data and clock transmit, so the FPGA has corrected the timing to improved on sound quality ."
I wonder if the DI-20 achieves Galvanic isolation?

I will test with DI-20 after I receive it to see if the ISO Regen still improves the sound.


----------



## FredA

darren700 said:


> Currently with my Gustard U16 I use a Uptone ISO Regen powered by a Uptone LPS-1. The ISO Regen provides Galvanic Isolation, completely regenerates the USB signal and provides a moat to block leakage currents, I also cut the 5V USB input into the U16 via Uptones USBPCB A>B Adapter.
> My USB signal is already very clean coming from a SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo but I find that the ISO Regen still helps with the U16.
> 
> However, looking at the design of the DI-20 it seems that it may render my ISO Regen redundant once It replaces my U16.
> ...


I believe this is galvanic isolation indeed between the clean and the dirty side. But having galvanic isolation on the usb line can also help. I have an intona and will likely keep it as my setup always sounded better with it with the u16 and the f-1.


----------



## darren700

FredA said:


> I believe this is galvanic isolation indeed between the clean and the dirty side. But having galvanic isolation on the usb line can also help. I have an intona and will likely keep it as my setup always sounded better with it with the u16 and the f-1.



Good point, i guess more isolation should only help rather than hurt.


----------



## motberg

frizzup said:


> The configuring of settings/options through the buttons on the DI-20 as explained on the Audio-GD website need further detail and clarity, somewhat confusing as to what some of the options mean/do. Intially got "no sound" having installed into the my rig replacing the Gustard U16. Eventually worked out that I needed to lower the DAClink setting in the JPLAY control panel to 20mhz to get 44.1, 88.2, 96, 176.2 and 192mhz sample rates working. I typically ran the Gustard U16 with a DAClink of 45mhz. So the drivers Gustard/Amanero require quite different settings, what this will mean to the sound/stage too early to say
> Frizzup



This is a good point concerning the USB driver compatibility with the software and hardware being used.
I have very similar setup to yours, and in my experience I am more successful tweaking the AO digital filters than the DACLink (I never could get much over 80hz with hibernate enabled and usually preferred settings of 20 or 10 anyways)... so the AO filters will probably also require review..

I really liked the isolated Amanero in my R1 and seems that is the basis for the new DI. (I do not remember exactly, but maybe I got 45 hz with the R1, I seem to always be able to get 45 even with hibernate.)

Thanks again for the report - looking forward to your listening evaluation. The U16/M7 must be a fantastic combo for PCM, but my guess is the DI-20 may be able to offer some lightness/air to the presentation given my experience with the Amanero.... not to mention possibly increased stability and for sure better firmware/driver support... jejejejeje....


----------



## frizzup (Nov 19, 2019)

Hi motberg,

The system is running-in 24/7 with a playlist of different artists, genres, and sample rates, and as of today I have not tried to listen other than to know its working. Will give it a first listen this coming weekend with some additional 100+ hours clocked up. My Audio-GD DI-2014 took some 300+ hours to settle-in, the Master 7 and Master 10 were much longer than that. Then there is the need to review the AO filters as you commented. I currently run 1A on both CPC/APC. The Gustard u16 Audio-GD Master 7 was/is indeed a stunning combo. I had no issues with U16 (pops, clicks, distortion etc etc) with Firmware and Sample rates, the PSA version of each firmware release always worked with the Audio-GD Master 7. So contrary to a number of members on this forum.

Only challenge was the USB driver into Windows Server 2019 (Core). So why change from the U16?.

Audio-GD (Kingwa) over the years has always delivered to me a tight integrated/tested ecosystem, you just have to hear his I2S implementation in Master 7, and CAST (ACSS) implementation between units with good ACSS cables (mine are from Double Twisted) to know he/his technology delivers. His only weakness IMHO has been USB interface implementations with Tenor/Via. Once I heard he was delivering a new external DCC based on Amanero and R-Core I knew I would invest sight/sound/reviews unseen and trust it will give an upgrade over the U16 as well as better support with future FPGA/USB upgrades.  The U16 and its external 10mhz world clock will stay with me and go into my Audio-GD Reference 5.32/C2.2 Headphones rig replacing its Audiophilleo 2 MkI Dcc which in turn will get sold along with the Audio-D DI-2014.

Will update after the weekends listening session and hopefully by then other DI-20, DI-20HE's will have started to arrive to his customers
Frizzup


----------



## DACLadder

@frizzup  Is your Master 7 DAC the original or upgraded with Singularity digital board?  Just want to get the correct picture in my mind as you describe.  Thanks!


----------



## frizzup

Hi DacLadder,

Its an original. I totally missed out on the singularity upgrade being available ;-(
Frizzup


----------



## DACLadder

@frizzup  Thanks!  The old M7 can can sound pretty good especially HDMI I2S.  Lower the jitter the better!


----------



## maellen

I'm kinda new into this device. Interested to know more & curious whether in can really improve my system?

Current setup:
PC (Foobar2000) > "USB" > R1 > "ACSS" > NFB-1AMP > "XLR" > Headphone

Plays mostly FLAC & some DSD.


----------



## FredA

maellen said:


> I'm kinda new into this device. Interested to know more & curious whether in can really improve my system?
> 
> Current setup:
> PC (Foobar2000) > "USB" > R1 > "ACSS" > NFB-1AMP > "XLR" > Headphone
> ...


A bit early to tell but most likely.


----------



## motberg

maellen said:


> I'm kinda new into this device. Interested to know more & curious whether in can really improve my system?
> 
> Current setup:
> PC (Foobar2000) > "USB" > R1 > "ACSS" > NFB-1AMP > "XLR" > Headphone
> ...



If the R1 has the isolated USB option, then you are already at a pretty good level (I had one of those, also with NFB-1AMP) and I would start with the PC software which may be offer significant upgrade for relatively small investment. By then, there should be reports of the DI-20 performance vs. the native Amanero.


----------



## FredA

motberg said:


> If the R1 has the isolated USB option, then you are already at a pretty good level (I had one of those, also with NFB-1AMP) and I would start with the PC software which may be offer significant upgrade for relatively small investment. By then, there should be reports of the DI-20 performance vs. the native Amanero.


Also big gauge power cords are a rather cheap and a worthwhile upgrade. And an above average acss ic.


----------



## FredA

My system has been performing heavenly for most of the last weeks, except some fluctuations having to do with a new acss cable. So i am not certain what the di20-he can add i don't already have, especially regarding treble, which i would consider as perfect... But sometimes i guess you just don't know what you are missing until you get it.


----------



## maellen

Thanks for the prompt feedback. Will follow this thread & observe findings from the owners of DI-20s at the moment.


----------



## DACLadder

Does anyone have an update on DI-20 sound quality and operation?

Or maybe should ask if anyone else has received one of the first batch of the DIs shipped last Friday.


----------



## newabc (Nov 20, 2019)

A new impression in Kingwa's bbs.audio-gd.com by "闻鸡起舞"(http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&Id=31346&page=1&star=2) Translated by google translate, I did a little adjustment on translation.

"Mac amarra with external usb3.0 hard drive, ACSS current transmission on coaxial output, North Sea turntable is not comparable (with DI-20). The sound field is wide in scale, accurate and stable on positioning, and the overall analytical ability is improved. The performance is shown on extremely weak sound, revealing extremely delicate, low frequency band with high resolution and heavy impact, realistic impact, more intense texture, rich expression, the style is similar as the impression of CD7, but better. Still need to burn in!"


----------



## newabc (Nov 20, 2019)

Someone in this DI-20 thread(http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&Id=31346&page=1&star=2) mentioned MPS HD-230 and HD-280 HDMI cables which are designed for video playback in extremely high quality(based  on some Chinese introduction of them), and other one even mentioned pure silver cable. But I think the shielded cables for HDMI 2.1 should be enough.


----------



## FredA

Wow! I am dying to get mine.


----------



## frizzup

Day 4 of 24/7 burn-in of my new Di-20. Took a peek this morning over my first coffee of the day, definite progress over "out of the box". 6 hours later and an afternoon tea and woh!, considerable step-up in the staging, precision, positioning of instruments, pure black background, and each note/voice, having depth and detail not present with Gustard U16. I would summarise this afternoon quick listen, as being acquainted with an old friend in new clothes, the Audio-GD "house sound" at its best, this compared to the Gustard U16 after 9 months of its use. 

I am now of the view after a few days to buy a 2nd DI-20 and not use the Gustard U16 in my Audio-DG Headphones rig. Its that good!

Running USB 2.0 input and I2S (HDMI) output on the DI-20. 

Have not tried ACSS (BNC/SPDIF) out of the DI-20

Frizzup


----------



## JaMo

I got a DHL tracking number but the DI is still in Hong Kong.
/Jan


----------



## Pappas3278

Got my DHL delivery notification today.  Gonna be hooking up and burning in tonight.  Won't listen for at least a few days.

Mac >DI-20 90/90M >R1 (i2S) >NFB1amp (ACSS)


----------



## darren700 (Nov 21, 2019)

Just got home with my new DI-20 90/98. ripped it out of packaging and installed immediately into my main system replacing the Gustard U16.
I know it is way to early for proper impressions and lots of burn in is still required, but WOW does this sound awesome. it took 5 seconds of music to notice the improved resolution vs the U16. It sounds like several veils have been lifted. definitely an inky black background like frizzup described. I am already hearing details in songs ive never noticed before! cant wait until this thing is burned in!

PCM, DSD, 96k, 176k, 192k all play flawlessly with my SMS-200 Ultra Neo and R2R-7. Now I can experiment with newer firmware for the R2R-7 (im stuck on V3 since the U16 had issues with the newer firmware)

Also note the DI-20 does not need 5V on USB input to function correctly.

I am definitely going to buy a second one for my R1 in my headphone setup. the only question is whether to buy a second DI-20 or spring for the DI-20HE. my speaker system already has a H-350 but I am wondering If i could still benefit from the DI-20HE?? If the HE version doesn't make a difference in my speaker setup it would in my R1 headphone setup for sure since I only have a APC H15 for power conditioning in that system...

Chain for my main system now:

Audio-GD HE-350 powering DI-20, R2R-7, Thoebe II Preamp

Jriver Win10 PC -> DLNA -> SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo (LPS-1.2 PSU) -> Audio Sensibility Statement Silver USB -> Uptone ISO Regen (LPS-1 PSU) -> Audio-GD DI-20 90/98 -> Moshou HDMI 2.1 1M -> Audio-GD R2R-7 -> SST Thoebe II Preamp -> SST Son Of Ampzilla II Amp -> Monitor Audio GX300 Speakers

I linked to an imgur gallery of lots more pictures including ones comparing size of U16 below... Enjoy.
https://imgur.com/a/vAgXixo


----------



## frizzup

End of Day 6 of 24/7 burn-in running a playlist containing multiple genres, artists and sample rates.

Sat down this evening (Sat in NZ), poured a glass of wine and queued up some albums and just listened

Sara K - Made in the Shade (44.1/24)
Bill Callahan - Dream River (44.1/16)
Nils Frahm - All Melodies (96/24)
Keith Jarrett - Koln Concert (96/24)  
Glass became a bottle...been a long day in the garden

Conclusion after Day 6



Frizzup


----------



## darren700

frizzup said:


> End of Day 6 of 24/7 burn-in running a playlist containing multiple genres, artists and sample rates.
> 
> Sat down this evening (Sat in NZ), poured a glass of wine and queued up some albums and just listened
> 
> ...



Glad to hear your experiences match mine, I am loving the DI-20 more every-time I listen to it.

Day 3 of burn in for me. Sound is still awesome to my ears, but im sure it will get better.
I continue to hear things in songs I have never noticed before. I mainly listen to Electro, DNB and EDM and it seems to have more depth and snap to it, hard to describe but it just sounds more real, perhaps it is the "pure black background" frizzup was talking about. Bass texture and depth is also improved with the DI-20 vs the U16.

With the U16 I was stuck on V3 R2R-7 Firmware (R2R7V3IIS3_S.jrc) because when trying the new OCT 2019 firmware I was getting static.

Now with the DI-20 90/98 after flashing to the latest OCT 2019 firmware (R7tda_Asy_P2_dsdclk_IIS3.jrc) everything is working perfectly.
No more pops during sample rate changes and alot smoother transitions when changing between different sample rates


----------



## FredA

I will get my unit Tuesday or Wednesday!


----------



## DACLadder

Audio GD is offering a 5% discount on DI-20 and DI-20 HE orders during November 2019.

*5% OFF promo in Nov.*
http://www.audio-gd.com/En audio-gd.htm


----------



## soundlogic

DACLadder said:


> Audio GD is offering a 5% discount on DI-20 and DI-20 HE orders during November 2019.
> 
> *5% OFF promo in Nov.*
> http://www.audio-gd.com/En audio-gd.htm


Thanks for that post Dac-Ladder! That just got me off the fence...
Also, on one of the Gustard U16 threads either here or on Computer Audiophile, one of the posters did a very telling A/B between the Singxter and Gustard...is that poster here? And if so, will you be doing a similar A/B?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## DACLadder

@soundlogic  You are welcome and enjoy!

The early DI-20 shipments are now being delivered so check back here in the next week. I have a lot of DDCs but my DI-20 HE won’t be shipped for several more weeks.  And excited about the possibilities from the few early reviews so far!

i hope the DI-20 is a U16 killer.  Operationally the U16 is an failure in my PC, Allo Usbridge, and Aurender setups.  Sounds great though when working but what a sorry design.  The three Singxers and Amanero USB board never falter in operation.  I’ll be concentrating on how the Singxer SU-6 compares to the D-20 HE.


----------



## JaMo

HI! 
I got my DI20HE delivered now, today. The lady was home and received. Will unbox and test it tonight. I am very excited to get the first impressions. Just have to work for a few hours.... feel like a kid in Christmas times... (hate the waiting..)


----------



## JaMo

I have now unboxed the DI20HE. It took some time to get the correct linux driver to get it to sing out. Finally I got sound. First minutes the sound was flat and hollow but after a while it started to shine.... What struck me was the deep black background and now and then the performance gave glimts of its potential. This is a High End device, no doubt. Some tunes shows already what this will be. I have been pleased with the Gustard U16 's performance and have not had all the issues and problems I have been reading about. Anyway, this DI20HE from Audio-gd and Kingwa is a "U16-killer". And this by its performance. I guess the non-HE also is but don't really know. I have tested a varity of formats PCM 44.1-384 and DSD64,128 and they all plays beautifully. I play through HDMI to my R2R7 (fw Parallell DoP). Now I will leave it powered on 24/7. I expect 2 weeks for the internal XO's to stabilize and longer (months?) for the electronics to fully mature. It is very nice already. The DI20HE is not cheap but I know this is one of my best investments in the audio-chain. More to come when I have more burnin in time and testing/playing. 
/Jan


----------



## JaMo

4 hours later.... The sound stage is huge and the precise layering impresses... This box is full of surprises, Wow!/J


----------



## FredA

JaMo said:


> 4 hours later.... The sound stage is huge and the precise layering impresses... This box is full of surprises, Wow!/J


4 hours is the magic delay. I would have bet...


----------



## DACLadder

Music to my ears!


----------



## FredA

Dying to receive mine. 24 to 48 hours...


----------



## PLGA

Hello @darren700 and @JaMo
Are you using any external OCXO for your DI-20s?

How would you describe the main differences against the U16?

By the way, I have the U16 with an external OCXO and its hard to imagine a much better device for similar money!  Ahhh... Tempations, temptations!!


----------



## darren700 (Nov 25, 2019)

PLGA said:


> Hello @darren700 and @JaMo
> Are you using any external OCXO for your DI-20s?
> 
> How would you describe the main differences against the U16?
> ...



No external clock for me. However If audio-gd ever releases one I would consider it. remember the Accusilion 90/98 in the DI-20 is no slouch!

The main differences to me vs the U16 in the DI-20 so far are:

Perfect black background
increased micro-details
wider soundstage
deeper bass that also has better texture
no sound glitches or dropouts
doesn't restart on its own randomly like the U16
Also note my U16 is already up for sale.... https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649570574-gustard-u16-ddc/


----------



## JaMo (Nov 25, 2019)

PLGA said:


> Hello @darren700 and @JaMo
> Are you using any external OCXO for your DI-20s?
> 
> How would you describe the main differences against the U16?
> ...



HI @PLGA,
Too early for me to answer. But yes I am using/trying OCXO for the moment and it works just fine. Any comparison to the internal XO's (Accusilicon 90/98) isn't possible yet. Give me/it at least 2 weeks of power on. @darren700 pretty much nailed the impressions I got fresh start and first hours yesterday eve.
/Jan


----------



## PLGA

Thank you both for the answers and yes, of course, I will wait (if I can ) for your impressions and for the opinions of another DI-20 owners in this forum, before deciding as my Gustard U16 sound very nice and my wallet has suffered this last couple of years! 

Kingwa said to me that as I have the standard R8 and M1 (not the HE versions), he may suggest the standard DI-20.

I also have a dedicated AC line, a Holton DC Blocker and an Audioquest Niagara 1200 Power Filter on its way, so may I will take the shot on the regular DI-20.


----------



## JaMo

24 hours of power on. This box will not leave my home. Ever! That's it. It claims its space with indisputable clarity.The performance. Yesterday I listened to HDMI almost all the evening. I just tested the SPDIF (both regular and and ACSS) with a high quality cable. Yesterday the sound from those SPDIF's gave a slight noise.(Pink Noise-ish) I am familiar with this from earlier experiences with new gears. "It will fade away". And Yes, Now the noise is completely gone as expected. The sound quality of the SPDIF is very good. I have to test more after a full and good sleep...but the ACSS SPDIF can be compared with the I2S via HDMI. This is early in the burn in journey and the sound fluctuates from "nothing special"  to "Nice" to "Very nice, Hmm" to  "Full-blossom-high-end-performance". Up and down. I play a wide varity of music material (genres) and resolutions and formats. This pure joy. More to come...
/Jan


----------



## FredA

JaMo said:


> 24 hours of power on. This box will not leave my home. Ever! That's it. It claims its space with indisputable clarity.The performance. Yesterday I listened to HDMI almost all the evening. I just tested the SPDIF (both regular and and ACSS) with a high quality cable. Yesterday the sound from those SPDIF's gave a slight noise.(Pink Noise-ish) I am familiar with this from earlier experiences with new gears. "It will fade away". And Yes, Now the noise is completely gone as expected. The sound quality of the SPDIF is very good. I have to test more after a full and good sleep...but the ACSS SPDIF can be compared with the I2S via HDMI. This is early in the burn in journey and the sound fluctuates from "nothing special"  to "Nice" to "Very nice, Hmm" to  "Full-blossom-high-end-performance". Up and down. I play a wide varity of music material (genres) and resolutions and formats. This pure joy. More to come...
> /Jan


Holly cow! Mine is out of the customs.


----------



## JaMo

Should be possible then! Fingers crossed for You!


----------



## PLGA

JaMo said:


> 24 hours of power on. This box will not leave my home. Ever! That's it. It claims its space with indisputable clarity.The performance. Yesterday I listened to HDMI almost all the evening. I just tested the SPDIF (both regular and and ACSS) with a high quality cable. Yesterday the sound from those SPDIF's gave a slight noise.(Pink Noise-ish) I am familiar with this from earlier experiences with new gears. "It will fade away". And Yes, Now the noise is completely gone as expected. The sound quality of the SPDIF is very good. I have to test more after a full and good sleep...but the ACSS SPDIF can be compared with the I2S via HDMI. This is early in the burn in journey and the sound fluctuates from "nothing special"  to "Nice" to "Very nice, Hmm" to  "Full-blossom-high-end-performance". Up and down. I play a wide varity of music material (genres) and resolutions and formats. This pure joy. More to come...
> /Jan



Hi JaMo
Great posts on the Di-20HE. 

Wich DAC and preamp do you have?  And the rest of the system?  Do you have any AC treatment (dedicated line, power regenerator, power filter, etc)?


----------



## JaMo (Nov 26, 2019)

PLGA said:


> Hi JaMo
> Great posts on the Di-20HE.
> 
> Wich DAC and preamp do you have?  And the rest of the system?  Do you have any AC treatment (dedicated line, power regenerator, power filter, etc)?



Thanks. Well, I am a weak person regarding this music reproduction gears.. I have way too much audio equipment, but that is another story..

In this case I am using my R2R7 that soon will be a R7 with the OS-NOS choices on the face plate. I also have a very rare TDA1541AS2 dac. This one is a HE and it is huge (25kg!). Along these I also have a NFB27.77(ESS dac). The latter is powered off to not mess up the comparison. I alter between the R2R7 and the TDA feeding different inputs. This is a pretty hard work week so I don't have unlimited (well slept) time to compare.

The Pre is a Master 1 with knobs. It has OPA2140 servo's as also the R7 and the 27.77 have. Power amps are 1 x Master 3 and 2 x Master 2's. Speakers are Quad ESL63's with Gradient SW63's. The M3 feeds the Q63' and M2'sfeeds the SW63's. Power condition is done by a Riello Medical grade UPS that produces a very clean power to the Pre and Dac's. The powerline is in general very good here. No heavy industries or such. Perfect for enjoying, for a guy like me, living with music all time I can.

For listening to headphones I usually use NFB28.38. Headphones Fostex T50RPIII modded, HE500, HE6, lately Blon B8 and HF580 (my own mod)
/Jan


----------



## PLGA

JaMo said:


> Thanks. Well, I am a weak person regarding this music reproduction gears.. I have way too much audio equipment, but that is another story..
> 
> In this case I am using my R2R7 that soon will be a R7 with the OS-NOS choices on the face plate. I also have a very rare TDA1541AS2 dac. This one is a HE and it is huge (25kg!). Along these I also have a NFB27.77(ESS dac). The latter is powered off to not mess up the comparison. I alter between the R2R7 and the TDA feeding different inputs. This is a pretty hard work week so I don't have unlimited (well slept) time to compare.
> 
> ...



Wow, very impressive system. Thanks for sharing.

I'm still deciding between the regular DI-20 or the HE version. The price difference is not small.

Kingwa has suggested me the regular version as I have the non HE versions of the R8 DAC and M1 preamp and I also have a dedicated AC line, a Holton DC Blocker and a soon coming AudioQuest Niagara 1200, so I guess the power feeding my system must be pretty clean.

I have the money, what I'm trying to convince is my consiounce!


----------



## JaMo

PLGA said:


> Wow, very impressive system. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I'm still deciding between the regular DI-20 or the HE version. The price difference is not small.
> 
> ...



I know the feeling. Be sure of that. I am sure also the nonHE is very good. Pick the HE if You have 1. A long term plan to upgrade the whole chain 2. the funds 3..problems to live with to pass it.. 

My rig. I have been building up this for years. Fell in love with the speakers in the 80's. Have been saving up and worked hard to be where I am today. Music is important for me, have always been. It has my priority higher than travel and other expensive stuff..
/Jan


----------



## Toni-Mang

Thanks you for your post and your impressions. A very cool system...
I am waiting for my DI20 90/98, shipped on the 18.11. And my broken U16 is also back again. It had a warranty repair, took long (incl. shipping and tax cost), but Gustard was helpfull. So it is possible for me to compare both "new" with the PS Audio PWT.
As mentioned before, i have two HDMI Cards on my R8, and the PS Audio PWT sounded much better as the U16 DDC (both via I2S). Hope, the DI20 comes closer...
Stefan


----------



## JaMo

Toni-Mang said:


> So it is possible for me to compare both "new" with the PS Audio PWT.



Hi Stefan, thanks. This compare will be very interesting. Keep us informed.
/Jan


----------



## JaMo (Nov 27, 2019)

Our friend @FredA got his HE yesterday but he has been unlucky to have some issues with his unit. It is a pity and I have a small struggle inside of how to deal with this. I really want You all to hear of my findings but don't want "salt his wounds". You understand. Anyway I know that Fred and Kingwa will solve this in no time so here we go:

This morning, ~38 hours of power on. Sophisticated, pleasant and silk smooth. I am using EXT-XO in with the Oscilloquarts 8663 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-MHz-Dou...060152?hash=item3af92514f8:g:zb4AAOSwGzhaIOt4) I didn't notice any variations the hour I listened. I couldn't play that loud because of the early morning and not beeing alone at home. I only listened to 44.1 and all sounded "self-evident", natural, fuller and with authority. This is pretty rare for me. I had that experience years ago with an Altec Lansing 18 inch horn system. The hornes was then driven by a pair of very good 2A3-single ended tube amps. It has to do with the dynamics and the "no-feedback" in the amp-chain. I love this rather small box and I hope Fred gets his reward asap along with all of You waiting for delivery. I had to leave for work and will listen more this afternoon and evening. More to come.
/Jan


----------



## PLGA

Toni-Mang said:


> Thanks you for your post and your impressions. A very cool system...
> I am waiting for my DI20 90/98, shipped on the 18.11. And my broken U16 is also back again. It had a warranty repair, took long (incl. shipping and tax cost), but Gustard was helpfull. So it is possible for me to compare both "new" with the PS Audio PWT.
> As mentioned before, i have two HDMI Cards on my R8, and the PS Audio PWT sounded much better as the U16 DDC (both via I2S). Hope, the DI20 comes closer...
> Stefan



Hello Stefan
I will be anxiously waiting for your impressions on the standard DI-20 vs the Gustard U16!  

Im planning on buying the regular DI-20 or the HE version, but the U16 sounds VERY good that its hard to imagine a much better sounding device. 

Thank you!


----------



## PLGA (Nov 27, 2019)

JaMo said:


> Our friend @FredA got his HE yesterday but he has been unlucky to have some issues with his unit. It is a pity and I have a small struggle inside of how to deal with this. I really want You all to hear of my findings but don't want "salt his wounds". You understand. Anyway I know that Fred and Kingwa will solve this in no time so here we go:
> 
> This morning, ~38 hours of power on. Sophisticated, pleasant and silk smooth. I am using EXT-XO in with the Oscilloquarts 8663 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-MHz-Dou...060152?hash=item3af92514f8:g:zb4AAOSwGzhaIOt4) I didn't notice any variations the hour I listened. I couldn't play that loud because of the early morning and not beeing alone at home. I only listened to 44.1 and all sounded "self-evident", natural, fuller and with authority. This is pretty rare for me. I had that experience years ago with an Altec Lansing 18 inch horn system. The hornes was then driven by a pair of very good 2A3-single ended tube amps. It has to do with the dynamics and the "no-feedback" in the amp-chain. I love this rather small box and I hope Fred gets his reward asap along with all of You waiting for delivery. I had to leave for work and will listen more this afternoon and evening. More to come.
> /Jan



Good luck Fred!

We all hope you can solve the issues with your DI-20HE ASAP!!

Let us know your findings when you can.

Thank you Jan for sharing your impressions with your DI-20HE!  Keep on writing!


----------



## FredA

Thanks. Should be sorted today hopefully. I still have the u16 and it is much more stable through spdif and sounds great with the dsdclk fw. So life is still good.


----------



## DACLadder

The 2nd batch of DI-20s were supposed to ready on Nov. 28th. I have been marking the days on my calendar.  Hope they ship this week!


----------



## soundlogic

My name is Tim, and I created this thread to generate interest in this new product, and could not be more grateful at the results so far. 
But...I I would like to reach out to anyone here who might have some advice for me: 3 days ago, after I viewed the 5% promo on the DI-20 from Audio-GD, I sent an emai to them stating I would like to purchase the DI-20HE shipped to 83835 USA, and to please send a PayPal invoice to me. Not long afterwards I received a PayPal request for an amount that seemed over the posted price for shipping and the DI-20HE minus the 5%. I sent numerous emails requesting an itemized invoice, but received nothing in return. Eventually after just short of 36 hours, I cancelled the PayPal request for money with an explanation. Still not receiving any response from Audio-GD. Soon after, I decided to send an email to all the email addresses listed on the site...including King-Wa. Still no response. I then poured over every written word on the site in hopes to get answers, or to see if there was another avenue to reach out to them.. It was then that I noticed that the company actually charges the PayPal fees back to the customer...which is something I have never seen before, but would explain why the math of the first invoice did not add up. If the original invoice was properly broken down, itemizing all charges, ( which BTW, there was not even a mention on the invoice that the charges were for a DI-20 HE, just a number=19112503, which was disconcerting as well)  then I wouldn’t be typing this inquiry. 
  So, after I figured out that the “unknown to me’” PayPal fees was one reason that the charges did not look right, I went back into my paypal account and sent the funds...the exact amount that I was originally billed, along with a note as to what EXACTLY the money was for: DI20-HE, DHL shipping to 83835 USA, etc. As of this morning I have received no emails from Audio-GD, nor has the money been actually debted  from my account.
   I find all of this somewhat disconcerting. I even included an apology in my PayPal notes to seller, for my apparent misunderstandings. 
1. Anyone have similar experiences with this company? 
2. Is there anyone who has a one on one relationship with King-wa that can reach out to him to get some personal help here? If I owned a business and knew there was an issue like this, I would prefer to get it rectified.
3.  Does King-wa moniker this thread? ‘Thanks In advance for reading this, and of course...any help would be appreciated.
Happy Thanksgiving for those who enjoy such.
Tim


----------



## aumont00 (Nov 27, 2019)

Hello @soundlogic
Usually people first ask for a quote by mail, and then receive a detailed quote which includes everything: product, shipping and paypal fees, so you know in advance the total price.
Thats what I did and everything went fine with my order.
Now keep in mind that this is not a big company and sometimes Kingwa is very busy and cannot reply as quickly as one could expect...
Also yes it is not common for companies to charge for the paypal fees because most of them will just increase the price to be able to pay for the fees.


----------



## PLGA

soundlogic said:


> My name is Tim, and I created this thread to generate interest in this new product, and could not be more grateful at the results so far.
> But...I I would like to reach out to anyone here who might have some advice for me: 3 days ago, after I viewed the 5% promo on the DI-20 from Audio-GD, I sent an emai to them stating I would like to purchase the DI-20HE shipped to 83835 USA, and to please send a PayPal invoice to me. Not long afterwards I received a PayPal request for an amount that seemed over the posted price for shipping and the DI-20HE minus the 5%. I sent numerous emails requesting an itemized invoice, but received nothing in return. Eventually after just short of 36 hours, I cancelled the PayPal request for money with an explanation. Still not receiving any response from Audio-GD. Soon after, I decided to send an email to all the email addresses listed on the site...including King-Wa. Still no response. I then poured over every written word on the site in hopes to get answers, or to see if there was another avenue to reach out to them.. It was then that I noticed that the company actually charges the PayPal fees back to the customer...which is something I have never seen before, but would explain why the math of the first invoice did not add up. If the original invoice was properly broken down, itemizing all charges, ( which BTW, there was not even a mention on the invoice that the charges were for a DI-20 HE, just a number=19112503, which was disconcerting as well)  then I wouldn’t be typing this inquiry.
> So, after I figured out that the “unknown to me’” PayPal fees was one reason that the charges did not look right, I went back into my paypal account and sent the funds...the exact amount that I was originally billed, along with a note as to what EXACTLY the money was for: DI20-HE, DHL shipping to 83835 USA, etc. As of this morning I have received no emails from Audio-GD, nor has the money been actually debted  from my account.
> I find all of this somewhat disconcerting. I even included an apology in my PayPal notes to seller, for my apparent misunderstandings.
> ...



Hello Tim,
My experiences are exact as @aumont00 

Kingwa always answer me very fast and kind. i think if you insist by email, you should get a proper answer.


----------



## PLGA

DACLadder said:


> The 2nd batch of DI-20s were supposed to ready on Nov. 28th. I have been marking the days on my calendar.  Hope they ship this week!



Hello Scott,
Wich DI-20 are you getting? The HE version?

Im sorry, I cant find it on the thread.

I would also wait for your impressions!


----------



## JaMo (Nov 28, 2019)

~50 hours. The DI20HE shines tonight. I have been listening to my well known test tracks. Like before from very different genres and different formats and sample rates. First: -No hickups!..at all. What a releaf after some time with the odd pair U16 - R2R-7. They have not been the best friends. Less problems for me than others. Reflection: The ESS-dac's don't seem to be as edgy or as intolerant to the U16, as the R2R-dacs. Don't know why but it's how I have experienced it.
I have been concentrating on the feeling while I listen to my known track and guys and girls, this is "unreal" already. Taking that I use the well burned in EXT-XO input active.. This piece of gear is almost scary good some times. An example: The tune "Who by fire" by Leonard Cohen fills my house with a very pleasant feeling.. Surrealistic big sound stage and myriads of detailes. I almost feel that I have better control of what was happening on that stage than they (Artists) did. Scary.  I also have been listening to acoustic and some orchestral music. I haven't had any dips (lower level of performance) this day. Only great or excellent. But remember I use the well burnt in EXT-XO. The Internal XO's is possibly not this good yet.

I haven't tried or compared the U16 to the DI20HE yet. It is a full time work just to follow the DI20 and what it's capable of. Now I know that the ACSS SPDIF is performing as good as the HDMI (I2S). The AES/EBU is also a very high performing interface. I use a DH-Labs DI110 cable (A recommendation from @FredA, Thanks alot!) This cable is excellent and my TDA-dac gets its music that way. It ihas its limitations (192K) but all those 192K's are Gorgeous!

This DI20 is a home run for Kingwa and Audio-gd. All You that are patiently waiting for the delivery of the DI20 in any shape or level.. It will be worth it. This is something else. More to come...

/Jan


----------



## DACLadder (Nov 27, 2019)

@soundlogic  The HE version looks to me that it has bumped up in price in recent weeks ($988 US).  It is $439 additional compared the regular DI-20 90/98 Accusilicon!

I was charged $52 shipping to 95409.  Plus 3.7% Paypal fees on the whole order.  5% discount is for the base goods only (not order total).  The bill should have bee somewhere in the neighborhood of $988 @ 5% off = $938.60 + $52 shipping + Paypal 3.7% fees on ($938.60 + $52) x 3.7% + $.30 handling PP fees ($36.52) = $1027.12 or there about with the 5% discount.  I usually get itemized quotes when asking for pricing.


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## DACLadder (Nov 27, 2019)

@PLGA I ordered the HE version of the DI-20. Probably receive my unit in early December 2019.


----------



## FredA

Kingwa is sending me a new unit this week, tomorrow i think. 

Kudos to him!


----------



## JaMo

FredA said:


> Kingwa is sending me a new unit this week, tomorrow i think.
> 
> Kudos to him!



Good and expected. Kingwa is a rock solid, honest and kind man. He takes care of us/his customers. That's acting with quality. Yes! Kudos to him.


----------



## FredA

My unit is shipped already! Love this quick customer service. I switched for ups, dhl has had issues lately in my area.


----------



## PLGA

Pappas3278 said:


> Got my DHL delivery notification today.  Gonna be hooking up and burning in tonight.  Won't listen for at least a few days.
> 
> Mac >DI-20 90/90M >R1 (i2S) >NFB1amp (ACSS)



Hello @Pappas3278 

Did you get your DI-20?  Did you get the chance to try it out?  Any early listening impressions?  Did you have the Gustard U16 to compare?

Good luck!


----------



## PLGA

FredA said:


> My unit is shipped already! Love this quick customer service. I switched for ups, dhl has had issues lately in my area.



Good to hear!  Kingwa is a great guy and very responsible!

We are about 20 people waiting for you comments on the DI-20HE against the U16!  Cant wait any longer!


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Good to hear!  Kingwa is a great guy and very responsible!
> 
> We are about 20 people waiting for you comments on the DI-20HE against the U16!  Cant wait any longer!


I have been burned being anxious and impatient. I will try to keep it cool this time.


----------



## PLGA

A question for all of you already owners of the DI-20 (HE or not) and also owners of the Gustard U16.

I know its somehow early, but under my experience, even considering the long time needed for burning this kind of gear, after 24 or 48 hs of continuous use, it shows its 80% (may be 85/90%) of its potential and I understand most of you already got the DI-20s playing that long and more.

Do you think replacing the U16 with you DI-20 (HE or not) is a mayor improvement?  Does it feel like changing something important on your system like preamp, power amp, DAC, power supply, source or anything similar?   Or is it a marginal change like changing some cables or small tweaks? 

Any thoughts??  Im sorry for the anxiaty but I've got the DI-20 (non HE) quoted by Kingwa and I'm still deciding!


----------



## jimmychan

I am also waiting for my 20HE. I know Kingwa once bought a U16 to compare and he sold it later.


----------



## PLGA

Well, Kingwa told me he sold his U16 because he was tired of the troubles to make it work ok, like a lot of us!

But, when I asked him about what would he recomend more, and upgrade of my R8 to the R-8HE DAC or an upgrade of my Gustard U16 with external OCXO to the DI-20 or DI-20HE, he said I would get a better improvement upgrading the DAC, but some guys in this thread are so impressed by the change in sound, with DI-20 or DI-20HE instead the U16, that I've got tempted to get one!!


----------



## JaMo

PLGA said:


> Well, Kingwa told me he sold his U16 because he was tired of the troubles to make it work ok, like a lot of us!
> 
> But, when I asked him about what would he recomend more, and upgrade of my R8 to the R-8HE DAC or an upgrade of my Gustard U16 with external OCXO to the DI-20 or DI-20HE, he said I would get a better improvement upgrading the DAC, but some guys in this thread are so impressed by the change in sound, with DI-20 or DI-20HE instead the U16, that I've got tempted to get one!!



I recommend You to follow Kingwa's advice. It makes sense. To get out the full performance of the new DI20/HE, You need to use one of the best dac's. I haven't heard the R8 or the R8HE but I trust Kingwa for his reasons and his recommendations. And as I said earlier: -Go for the DI20HE if You have serious plans to upgrade the whole audio-chain. The dac is a critical part in that chain.
/Jan


----------



## darren700

PLGA said:


> A question for all of you already owners of the DI-20 (HE or not) and also owners of the Gustard U16.
> 
> I know its somehow early, but under my experience, even considering the long time needed for burning this kind of gear, after 24 or 48 hs of continuous use, it shows its 80% (may be 85/90%) of its potential and I understand most of you already got the DI-20s playing that long and more.
> 
> ...



I would say the improvement on my system from a U16 was on par with changing my source. I noticed a similar level of performance increase when changing from a SOTM SMS-200 to the SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. I know for sure I am going to eventually replace my second U16 with another DI-20 or DI-20HE, I am just trying to decide if I should upgrade my R2R-7 to a R7 first.


----------



## FredA

darren700 said:


> I would say the improvement on my system from a U16 was on par with changing my source. I noticed a similar level of performance increase when changing from a SOTM SMS-200 to the SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. I know for sure I am going to eventually replace my second U16 with another DI-20 or DI-20HE, I am just trying to decide if I should upgrade my R2R-7 to a R7 first.


You should go for the r8-he. It beats the r7. Ask Kingwa anyway.


----------



## darren700 (Nov 28, 2019)

FredA said:


> You should go for the r8-he. It beats the r7. Ask Kingwa anyway.



I like your thinking, but since I have a HE-350 I wonder how much better the R8HE + HE350 would be vs the R8 + HE350? (I guess this is a question to ask Kingwa)
If I do decide to go with the R8 or R8 HE I would probably wait for the 2020 versions to be released so I get the clock input.


----------



## FredA

darren700 said:


> I like your thinking, but since I have a HE-350 but I wonder how much better the R8HE + HE350 would be vs the R8 + HE350? (I guess this is a question to ask Kingwa)
> If I do decide to go with the R8 or R8 HE I would probably wait for the 2020 versions to be released so I get the clock input.


The r8 and d8he might not get the clock input. So tough choice.


----------



## FredA

I would have the r2r 7 upgraded i guess.


----------



## PLGA (Nov 28, 2019)

darren700 said:


> I would say the improvement on my system from a U16 was on par with changing my source. I noticed a similar level of performance increase when changing from a SOTM SMS-200 to the SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. I know for sure I am going to eventually replace my second U16 with another DI-20 or DI-20HE, I am just trying to decide if I should upgrade my R2R-7 to a R7 first.



Thank you @darren700 for the analogy. It helps to have an idea. By the way, I have the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo and its a great source for my U16.

Some weeks ago, I was looking for an HE-350 to buy and Kingwa told me they dont produce it anymore, so I ended up buying an Audioquest Niagara 1200, but he told me some interesting things.

I know someone said that the any Audio-gd device + the HE-350 wont sound better than the HE version of that same device (I really dont know how big the difference would be), but Kingwa told me that adding the HE350 to my R8 and M1 would be a bigger upgrade than to just upgrade my R8 to the R-8HE. So I guess you are ok with the HE350 feeding your Audio-gd gear (except the power amp of course) and changing all of them to the HE versions will be considerably expensive.

Finally, Kingwa also told me that the R8 and the R-8HE cannot be added with an external clock input.

Pedro

PS: I think we all should sign our posts so we can get to know better. Dont you think so guys?


----------



## PLGA

I place my order on the regular DI-20!

I cant wait to have it on my system!!


----------



## JaMo

PLGA said:


> I place my order on the regular DI-20!
> 
> I cant wait to have it on my system!!



Good choice! 
/Jan


----------



## PLGA

JaMo said:


> Good choice!
> /Jan



Thank you. 

I will post my impressions in the next weeks, as soon as I burn it at least for 48 hs straight ahead.


----------



## newabc

A board admin of Kingwa's web forum, "*尘事"* compared I2S and ACSS coaxial output of DI-20(DI-20HE? He haven't mentioned this in the post)
http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&id=31359&page=1&star=2

Based on google translate, a little bit modification to fit the original Chinese meaning.

_The difference between I2S and ACSS :
1. When having I2S output, the sound is delicate and soft.
2. When having ACSS output, the sound is like the sunlight, and more powerful, but it is not rough and noisy.
3. ACSS is relatively calm in complex scenes, and has a good physical appearance.

The above BNC coaxial cable is about 200rmb. The HDMI cable is a gift from a friend. The price is unknown. It is a 1.5 meters AQ cable. And another HDMI cable is a 10rmb and 0.5 meters Yamazawa cable. I will try the more expensive HDMI cable later.
_
(1 USD for about 7 rmb.)

"*闻鸡起舞" *replied to this post about the comparison and cables:

_The two output methods are almost the same with your impression. My coaxial cable is from Audio-gd and my HDMI cable is a 50cm long, MPS brand, model 280._

(The MPS 280 is MPS HD-280. This 50cm long cable sells $71 in aliexpress.com.)


----------



## newabc

My regular version DI-20 is on the process of burning in with the internal and external clocks. Now is 1-2 days only.


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> A board admin of Kingwa's web forum, "*尘事"* compared I2S and ACSS coaxial output of DI-20(DI-20HE? He haven't mentioned this in the post)
> http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&id=31359&page=1&star=2
> 
> Based on google translate, a little bit modification to fit the original Chinese meaning.
> ...


I guess similar impressions with the u16, again comparing bnc vs i2s. I think bnc is smoother,  punchier, more relax. But bassier too. The i2s out on the u16 is quite a bit inferior to bnc.


----------



## motberg

FredA said:


> I guess similar impressions with the u16, again comparing bnc vs i2s. I think bnc is smoother,  punchier, more relax. But bassier too. The i2s out on the u16 is quite a bit inferior to bnc.


This is surprising to me... If you do not mind, what length and model BNC cable are you using?

I need give this a try again.. also good to arrange a good BNC cable for the future DI-20 purchase...


----------



## darren700

motberg said:


> This is surprising to me... If you do not mind, what length and model BNC cable are you using?
> 
> I need give this a try again.. also good to arrange a good BNC cable for the future DI-20 purchase...



Good Idea, do BNC cables require a minimum 1.5m length to avoid reflections like a Coxial cable does?
I am thinking of ordering one of these with BNC ends https://audiosensibility.com/blog/p...BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588/category=4059160


----------



## FredA

motberg said:


> This is surprising to me... If you do not mind, what length and model BNC cable are you using?
> 
> I need give this a try again.. also good to arrange a good BNC cable for the future DI-20 purchase...


I just have a short dhlab, 0.5m, which is not ideal. The cable brings its signature of course. Also, i think comparisons have to be redone with the parallel and fully asynch. firmwares for those who haven't. I plan on getting a better bnc at some point too cause of course they make a difference.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> I think bnc is smoother,  punchier, more relax. But bassier too.


wow I'm all confused.  So you've been using your U16 on BNC (192khz) and not i2s all this time?  Were you using an ACSS cable, a BNC cable, or BNC adapters on a coax cable (which always sounded the worst whenever I tried it)?

I see ACSS is not just for analog anymore.  Can I enjoy it's benefits by using the existing BNC out of a U16 or SU1 into the BNC input of my gen1 r2r7?
if the DI20 is needed, what DACs out there have a BNC input that can realize the ACSS benefit?


----------



## FredA (Dec 1, 2019)

Wynnytsky said:


> wow I'm all confused.  So you've been using your U16 on BNC (192khz) and not i2s all this time?  Were you using an ACSS cable, a BNC cable, or BNC adapters on a coax cable (which always sounded the worst whenever I tried it)?
> 
> I see ACSS is not just for analog anymore.  Can I enjoy it's benefits by using the existing BNC out of a U16 or SU1 into the BNC input of my gen1 r2r7?
> if the DI20 is needed, what DACs out there have a BNC input that can realize the ACSS benefit?


No the thing is the u16 has some issues with i2s (heavy pink noise upon start-up) with the latest parallel fws hence my switching to bnc. I use an actual bnc cable, without adaptors, the dh labs d-75.

The acss signal transmission is determined by the output. You need the di-20. Your dac and most dacs out there will benifit from it if connected through bnc to the new DI.

So my preference for bnc is with the dsdclk fw. I think the r7 does a splendid job with spdif.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 1, 2019)

ACSS SPDIF is new to me as well.  As Fred explained to me yesterday ACSS SPDIF output is compatible with 75 ohm voltage SPDIF inputs.  I purchased (not received) a new Oyaide SPDIF cable in anticipation of trying ACSS SPDIF when the DI-20 arrives..

Kingwa mentioned a few early DI-20 users prefer I2S and some prefer ACSS SPDIF.  Matter of taste. Yesterday with an old SPDIF cable I compared SU-6 HDMI I2S with regular SPDIF and I still prefer HDMI I2S with that setup (dsdclk f/w).  SU-6 SPDIF is slightly warmer sounding but did not sound bad at all.  So anxious to try ACSS SPDIF.

And need to mention DSD did not work over SPDIF using dsdclk f/w.  OK with I2S.


----------



## FredA (Dec 1, 2019)

The acss out is bnc. Bnc cables are superior to rca i read. Makes sense.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> The acss out is bnc. Bnc cables are superior to rca i read. Makes sense.



Bnc has the only advantage to be a 75 ohm connector, while not many rca plugs matches this target; otherwise good spdif cables are always 75 ohm.


----------



## Jackula

My DI-20 has been delivered early and I'm still at work, can't wait to get home and try it out.

While I don't have a U16 or SU6 to compare with, I'm very curious how the ACSS output ranks against my Audiophilleo + PurePower ($999). The Audiophilleo doesn't have regen, but it does run off low noise batteries, it's still ranked the best USB to SPDIF converter on Darko's website, tie with Empirical Off Ramp 5.


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> My DI-20 has been delivered early and I'm still at work, can't wait to get home and try it out.
> 
> While I don't have a U16 or SU6 to compare with, I'm very curious how the ACSS output ranks against my Audiophilleo + PurePower ($999). The Audiophilleo doesn't have regen, but it does run off low noise batteries, it's still ranked the best USB to SPDIF converter on Darko's website, tie with Empirical Off Ramp 5.


Darko is lagging. I have owned the Audiophileo with pure power, a long time ago. The u16 beats easily IMO, unless serious improvement were made to it since 2012.


----------



## Jackula

@FredA  Ah ok, saves me from doing a comparison then.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jackula said:


> @FredA  Ah ok, saves me from doing a comparison then.



It's true -- I remember my Audiophilleo 2 (no power suppply) having a pinched sound, like it focused the sound on a tiny point.  Not a musical experience.  Someone brought over a Yellowtec PUC2 and I couldn't sell my AP2 fast enough.


I'm still on the SU1 -- it's un-listenable w/o the industrial Intona, and today I snapped ferrite cores on the LPS supply DC cables powering the SU1 (Kitsune mod) and W4S recovery, and I did that until I ran out (so every 3 inches!)  Who here has the SU6 and DI20?  Would love the read your comparison.


----------



## Jackula

Wynnytsky said:


> It's true -- I remember my Audiophilleo 2 (no power suppply) having a pinched sound, like it focused the sound on a tiny point.  Not a musical experience.  Someone brought over a Yellowtec PUC2 and I couldn't sell my AP2 fast enough.
> 
> 
> I'm still on the SU1 -- it's un-listenable w/o the industrial Intona, and today I snapped ferrite cores on the LPS supply DC cables powering the SU1 (Kitsune mod) and W4S recovery, and I did that until I ran out (so every 3 inches!)  Who here has the SU6 and DI20?  Would love the read your comparison.



Yeah I agree with you on the vanilla Audiophilleo, the PurePower version is completely different. I've seen comparisons between the SU1 and Audiophilleo with the SU1 on top, I've seen the same person compare the Audiophilleo+PP and the PP version marginally beating the SU1.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> It's true -- I remember my Audiophilleo 2 (no power suppply) having a pinched sound, like it focused the sound on a tiny point.  Not a musical experience.  Someone brought over a Yellowtec PUC2 and I couldn't sell my AP2 fast enough.
> 
> 
> I'm still on the SU1 -- it's un-listenable w/o the industrial Intona, and today I snapped ferrite cores on the LPS supply DC cables powering the SU1 (Kitsune mod) and W4S recovery, and I did that until I ran out (so every 3 inches!)  Who here has the SU6 and DI20?  Would love the read your comparison.


@DACLadder will have both soon. But the su6 is about equivalent to the u16. The he beats the u16 quite easily.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> @DACLadder will have both soon. But the su6 is about equivalent to the u16. The he beats the u16 quite easily.



I wonder what LPS he uses?  I hope nobody is judging the SU6 on it's stock wall wart.  I modded my SU1 so I could pair it with my 3rd gen HDPlex, and that combo has a wider stage and lower noise floor than the U16.  Today I seemed to have curbed my high-freq fatigue by bombarding the internal+external DC wiring with ferrite cores.

Somebody brought over a Keces LPS and while the 19.5 didn't do much for my computer, when powering the SU1 and W4S recovery the sound became super relaxed.  In hindsight, I should have tried ripping out the Intona.  In any case, I'd love to know if anyone blessed their SU6 with a Keces.


----------



## Pappas3278

PLGA said:


> Hello @Pappas3278
> 
> Did you get your DI-20?  Did you get the chance to try it out?  Any early listening impressions?  Did you have the Gustard U16 to compare?
> 
> Good luck!


I gave a quick listen when it was first outta the box and I could tell right away that it elevated the R1 to another level that I hadn't heard previously.
It's been 10 days now since I last listened and, at present time, it has 240 hours of continued burn-in.  I listened today and I'm just blown away at what I'm hearing.
Like others have said; the music comes out of a complete black background.  The image is more 3-D holographic than I have ever heard from my ever-evolving system.
It's an absolute winner.  Currently using the i2s connection between the DI-20 and R1.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> I wonder what LPS he uses?  I hope nobody is judging the SU6 on it's stock wall wart.  I modded my SU1 so I could pair it with my 3rd gen HDPlex, and that combo has a wider stage and lower noise floor than the U16.  Today I seemed to have curbed my high-freq fatigue by bombarding the internal+external DC wiring with ferrite cores.
> 
> Somebody brought over a Keces LPS and while the 19.5 didn't do much for my computer, when powering the SU1 and W4S recovery the sound became super relaxed.  In hindsight, I should have tried ripping out the Intona.  In any case, I'd love to know if anyone blessed their SU6 with a Keces.


Not sure but i think Scott uses the stock wallwart. Anyway, Kingwa regen psu should be on top.


----------



## Jackula (Dec 2, 2019)

Either my hearing is at its limits or this thing needs more burn-in.

There was some initial panic as the unit wouldn't turn on, but then realised it takes a while and doesn't blink while starting up.


----------



## JaMo (Dec 2, 2019)

Jackula said:


> Either my hearing is at its limits or this thing needs more burn-in.



Be sure it's the need of more burn in time.

I am at ~160 hours (~1 week) on my DI20HE now and it is not ready for full performance yet. It is good all right but I am still waiting for the "permanent shine" of it. It will come I know. Expect 3 or 4 weeks. maybe even longer...

By the way I use an "old" 2005 Stereovox HDXV BNC, 1.0m cable. It is a very good, high performing 75 Ohm BNC cable (4GHz) with BNC to RCA adapters to where it's needed. https://6moons.com/audioreviews/stereovox/hdxv.html I can see they are selling used on the markets
/J


----------



## Jackula (Dec 2, 2019)

JaMo said:


> Be sure it's the need of more burn in time.
> 
> I am at ~160 hours (~1 week) on mu DI20HE now and it is not ready for full performance yet. It is good all right but I am still waiting for the "permanent shine" of it. It will come I know. Expect 3 or 4 weeks. maybe even longer...
> 
> ...



Damn, all of Kingwa's stuff takes so long to burn in!

I'm using a 10-year-old no-name digital coax cable made by the same guys that now make the Curious USB cables. I'm not well versed in digital cables, but I heard it's supposed to be comparable to the Antipodes Kokiri.

Btw, I'm starting to hear an improvement over the past hour. Switching between I2S and ACSS BNC, I much prefer the latter presentation. Better separation, air and imaging.


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> Either my hearing is at its limits or this thing needs more burn-in.
> 
> There was some initial panic as the unit wouldn't turn on, but then realised it takes a while and doesn't blink while starting up.


The HE unit takes 5-6 seconds to come alive, for those who are expecting one.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 2, 2019)

I have a lot of DDCs including Audiophileo1+PP and Off Ramp 5.  The industry has moved on and improved from these early DDC designs.  The Singxer F1 (int DAC power) and SU-1 (ext power) sound better especially I2S.

A linear power supply does not improve the Singxer SU-6 performance.  The 6's super cap circuit is a switching power supply itself and chops the incoming power.  So a nice clean, expensive external power supply does not help here.  Results were inconclusive so went back the supplied $12.50 SU-6 switching power supply until convinced to try again.

And the Internally powered Singxer F1 and externally powered SU-1 sound identical.  Comparing the Gustard U16 to SU-6 the U16 sounds more liquid while the SU-6 more neutral.  Both are excellent sound wise.  I won't go into how much I hate the U16 and wish it would catch on fire so I can throw it away!   All three Singxers operate the same (flawless).

With Kingwa's asynchronous parallel DAC firmware I am finding less variation between inputs. The internal F1 on IN 6 sounds very good.  The SU-6 a little better on IN 5 I2S. Even tried the Off Ramp 5 a few months ago and it sounded OK (I2S).  There are still some difference in comparison but nothing like with the older DAC hardware and firmware.

So waiting on a tracking number for the DI-20 HE.  Hope it is the last DDC I buy.  In a few years Kingwa will build a DAC where all inputs sound the same.  I will save all my DDCs for the audio history museum!


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> I will save all my DDCs for the audio history museum!



That was helpful.  Reminds me of this tiny transport a friend brought over.  I was eager to hear what an LPS would do for it and I easily preferred it's wall wart (which was the iFi either).  I recall preferring the F1's coax over the SU1, and at the time I figured it was shorter signal path, but now I'm suspicious of shielding.  While I'm getting my service upgraded and ground rods buried I plan to also replace my 12awg line with a 10awg in BX sheathing.

Kingwa describing the DI20 as sunshine does resonate with me because that's the exact word that sprung to mind when I stuck a pink faun in a friend's computer I was testing in my place.  If he achieved that over USB then I'm compelled to convince a friend to get it so that I can hear for myself!

We need a DDC museum that we can donate our old gear to, and then claim the deductions on our taxes.  Gustard U10 and U12 coming your way.


----------



## DACLadder

@Wynnytsky  That reminds me the Pink Faun is a device I never tried!  For good reason I guess (price).  And yes I have two Gustard U12s that I use for doorstops.  The U10 is probably equally bad and most likely worse.  I will never buy Gustard again and don't send that junk to me LOL!


----------



## jimmychan

For the DDC museum I have Audio-Gd's : Reference 3, DI-V2, DI-2014, and now DI-20HE.
I am still owning Gustard U16 x 2, and sold SU1 & SU6.


----------



## PLGA

jimmychan said:


> For the DDC museum I have Audio-Gd's : Reference 3, DI-V2, DI-2014, and now DI-20HE.
> I am still owning Gustard U16 x 2, and sold SU1 & SU6.



Hello Jimmy
I didn't know there were old Audio-GD DDC!  

How are they compared to the U16? 

I guess the U16 must be better as you have two of them and you've sold the SU1.


----------



## DACLadder

@jimmychan  Ha-ha!  Yes, those all belong in the DDC museum.  I'll even throw in a USB32 adapter board!  Another DDC I never tried was the Audiobyte Hydra Z.  

How is your DI-20 HE working out?  I'm hoping to receive mine by end of week.  I should sell my SU-6 as well.  I read the other day that the super caps don't necessarily have a long lifespan.

It is funny but the U16 works for so many people. Disaster for me with Allo Usbridge, Aurender, and PC.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> That was helpful.  Reminds me of this tiny transport a friend brought over.  I was eager to hear what an LPS would do for it and I easily preferred it's wall wart (which was the iFi either).  I recall preferring the F1's coax over the SU1, and at the time I figured it was shorter signal path, but now I'm suspicious of shielding.  While I'm getting my service upgraded and ground rods buried I plan to also replace my 12awg line with a 10awg in BX sheathing.
> 
> Kingwa describing the DI20 as sunshine does resonate with me because that's the exact word that sprung to mind when I stuck a pink faun in a friend's computer I was testing in my place.  If he achieved that over USB then I'm compelled to convince a friend to get it so that I can hear for myself!
> 
> We need a DDC museum that we can donate our old gear to, and then claim the deductions on our taxes.  Gustard U10 and U12 coming your way.


"Sunshine" is music to my ears...


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> The U10 is probably equally bad and most likely worse.


yes the U16 is trouble free for me included
But while my LPS'd SU1 can over-commit and need more taming, I found the U16 more likely to error on the side of being too conservative.

Looking back I would think the Keces could have saved the Hydra Z, but it was horrible with a 1st get HDPlex and I was fortunate to sell in hours.

My best sound continues to be an Asus Essence STX II PCIx card sending analog into an integrated Crown D60 (cirque 1970) sending 30wpc into 3" Fostex FE83-SOL full range drivers in a rear loaded horn cab.
Whenever I'm tempted to stack higher I get my reality check listening to that.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> yes the U16 is trouble free for me included
> But while my LPS'd SU1 can over-commit and need more taming, I found the U16 more likely to error on the side of being too conservative.
> 
> Looking back I would think the Keces could have saved the Hydra Z, but it was horrible with a 1st get HDPlex and I was fortunate to sell in hours.
> ...


WTH? A 300$ sound card? Really?


----------



## Currawong

If you want to go full-heresy mode, you could try comparing with an optical input using a high-quality cable, such as from Sysconcepts.


----------



## FredA

Currawong said:


> If you want to go full-heresy mode, you could try comparing with an optical input using a high-quality cable, such as from Sysconcepts.


To each his own preferences, who am i to judge. I am just a guy who knows next to nothing. But i will keep my big setup now that i have it.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> To each his own preferences, who am i to judge. I am just a guy who knows next to nothing. But i will keep my big setup now that i have it.


If I was a little more curious and a little less lazy I'd drag both sources into one room to make the comparison.

And yes, the Pink Faun is a terrific rip off given that it doesn't have a DAC or power supply.  It looks like a 115k modem or an ethernet card.  They now cover the chip with a heat sink or rub it black, but old photos show it's the same Oxygen chip used by my previous favorite sound card, the HT Omega Claro Halo.  The DACs in these sound cards can't be anything special, so maybe there's some aspect of USB my ears struggle with.

I promise this is my last off-topic topic.  Today I stuck one of these on the left and immediately ordered a second.  It actually took bite off the highs w/o reducing the volume - like I solved a problem I didn't know I had.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0798S3DV8


----------



## FredA

Nice. My brother in law has acoustics panels  that cover the whole back wall and on front part of the sides to prevent primary reflections. He gets a splendid soundstage and a great tonal  balance.


----------



## JaMo

@Wynnytsky  Nice. I like the snow shovel inside the house : )


----------



## UsoppNoKami

After enjoying the Singxer SU-6's small size , the R1-sized case of the DI-20HE was a bit of a shock haha.



R7HE is hooked up via 0.3m Wireworld Starlight 8 HDMI cable, will burn in the Acusilicons in the DI-20HE first before trying out the 10Mhz clock or doing any comparisons with the SU-6.

I'm hearing pops on sample rate changes fresh out of the box, but Roon somehow seems to do that a bit more than Foobar for me on my system anyway... let's see how it goes as it burns in. Fun times ahead


----------



## PLGA

UsoppNoKami said:


> After enjoying the Singxer SU-6's small size , the R1-sized case of the DI-20HE was a bit of a shock haha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice set up!

Let us know your impressions on the DI-20HE after some burning time.

On the other hand, I see you have Q Acoustics bookshelf speakers. How do you like them? I've had their Concept 40 and now I have their flagship, the Concept 500. Both outstanding speakers for the money. The 500 are very special.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

PLGA said:


> Nice set up!
> 
> Let us know your impressions on the DI-20HE after some burning time.
> 
> On the other hand, I see you have Q Acoustics bookshelf speakers. How do you like them? I've had their Concept 40 and now I have their flagship, the Concept 500. Both outstanding speakers for the money. The 500 are very special.



the QA 3020i are hooked up to my Sansui AU-7700, i only use it for background music.  I have B&W 707 S2 in the living room, live in an apartment so can't run big floor standers without getting noise complaints.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Dec 4, 2019)

Is this product better than the SOTM USB-TX Ultra?

I have one and it BLOWS away the Regen ISO which I also own.


----------



## FredA (Dec 4, 2019)

Looking


rsbrsvp said:


> Is this product better than the SOTM USB-TX Ultra?
> 
> I have one and it BLOWS away the Regen ISO which I also own.


It is a different product, the usb-tx is a usb reclocker, the di20 is a usb to spdif converter. The two can be used together. And with the same 10M clock reference if your sotm unit has the option. Something to try.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Dec 5, 2019)

FredA said:


> It is a different product, the usb-tx is a usb reclocker, the di20 is a usb to spdif converter. The two can be used together. And with the same 10M clock reference if your sotm unit has the option. Something to try.




I realise that point- but at the end of the day they are both digital transports.  If I have a USB and SPDIF input on my dac- would this product using spdif output better the SOTM USB TXultra using usb output?


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I realise that point- but at the end of the day they are both digital transports.  If I have a USB and SPDIF inpu on my dact- would this product using spdif output better the SOTM USB TXultra using usb output?


On an audio-gd dac, definitely,


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> On an audio-gd dac, definitely,



USBUltra is a USB regenerator that necessitates a 2nd USB cable.  And assuming you currently go
    computer=>USBUltra=>DAC USB

the question should be, which of these possibilities will sound best:
    DI20=>DAC coax/acss/i2s
    DI20HE=>DAC coax/acss/i2s
    USBUltra=>DI20=>DAC coax/acss/i2s
    USBUltra=>DI20HE=>DAC coax/acss/i2s


----------



## rsbrsvp (Dec 4, 2019)

Wynnytsky said:


> USBUltra is a USB regenerator that necessitates a 2nd USB cable. And assuming you currently go
> computer=>USBUltra=>DAC USB
> 
> the question should be, which of these possibilities will sound best:
> ...



I would be afraid to add the SOTM to the chain if using the DI20HE.  I do not like multiple recclocking devices in one chain.   At the end of the day both the SOTM and the DI-I20HE are reclockers only that one outputs by SPDIF and one outputs by USB.  I do not know technically which has the better clock but the SOTM is famous for their incredible reclocking technology.  The Audio-gd  does have that incredible built in power supply and the SOTM will need a fantastic external power supply to compete with that.


By the way- anyone ever try a Shirt Eiter?   I have one and it is SUPERB...   Don't be fooled by the low price.......


----------



## PLGA (Dec 4, 2019)

Under my experience, I2S input of the Audio-GD DACs is MUCH better than Amanero USB (isoleted). So, it makes the DI-20 (HE or not) a very good upgrade like any other USB to I2S converter.

My R8 DAC is fed via I2S from Gustard U16, wich regarding some forum members is no match to the DI-20, but nevertheless it is a considerably upgrade against the Amanero USB input. So I guess if you use the SOtM USB Ultra and you have an Audio-GD DAC, you will have to use the Amanero USB input and that would be a downside.

Just to mention, I have the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo SE feeding my Gustard U16 (DI-20 on its way) and I also have the W4S USB Reclocker RUR (not connected to the USB chain right now). Last week I made a test and I connected the RUR, between my SMS-200 and my U16, and I didnt like the results. It made the sound worse. I know the SOtM USB Ultra is on another league, but the RUR is also well regarded among audiophiles and it made a noticeable difference when I used the USB output of my Noteboook, but not now that I have the SMS-200.

I dont know about the Schiit Eitr, but I guess it should be similar to the RUR, but changind USB signal to SPDIF wich I believe is a downside.


----------



## Loukiz

PLGA said:


> Under my experience, I2S input of the Audio-GD DACs is MUCH better than Amanero USB (isoleted). So, it makes the DI-20 (HE or not) a very good upgrade like any other USB to I2S converter.
> 
> My R8 DAC is fed via I2S from Gustard U16, wich regarding some forum members is no match to the DI-20, but nevertheless it is a considerably upgrade against the Amanero USB input. So I guess if you use the SOtM USB Ultra and you have an Audio-GD DAC, you will have to use the Amanero USB input and that would be a downside.
> 
> ...



Hi PLGA,

I currently also use a Gustard U16 (DI-20 is already shipped) and have it currently connected via USB from my MacBook. I was never sure if there was an additional benefit of using a USB reclocker in addition to a USB/SPDIF converter. But since you mentioned that the W4S worked well with your Notebook as a source, this seems like an interesting option. 

On the Audio-gd homepage it is already described that the DI-20 acts like an USB Interface and isolator at the same time ("Built in the 150M high speed isolator between USB interface and FPGA signal processor.") and of course it performs reclocking of the signal, so the question would be if there even can be an additional benefit from a USB reclocker (e.g. W4S).


----------



## PLGA

Loukiz said:


> Hi PLGA,
> 
> I currently also use a Gustard U16 (DI-20 is already shipped) and have it currently connected via USB from my MacBook. I was never sure if there was an additional benefit of using a USB reclocker in addition to a USB/SPDIF converter. But since you mentioned that the W4S worked well with your Notebook as a source, this seems like an interesting option.
> 
> On the Audio-gd homepage it is already described that the DI-20 acts like an USB Interface and isolator at the same time ("Built in the 150M high speed isolator between USB interface and FPGA signal processor.") and of course it performs reclocking of the signal, so the question would be if there even can be an additional benefit from a USB reclocker (e.g. W4S).



Well, the RUR improved the sound noticeably when it was between my PC and the DAC and it also did it between the PC and the U16. I think the RUR should do it also before the DI-20, but Im not 100% sure.

Just to mention, the RUR also improved with a LPS, but even with an LPS it was no match to the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. I guess the biggest improvement you can have is with a dedicated streamer/bridge, getting rid of the computer USB signal, its crap.


----------



## TitaniumDust (Dec 4, 2019)

darren700 said:


> Good Idea, do BNC cables require a minimum 1.5m length to avoid reflections like a Coxial cable does?
> I am thinking of ordering one of these with BNC ends https://audiosensibility.com/blog/p...BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588/category=4059160



I saw your post and didn't see any replies, so I thought I'd share my limited knowledge in case it helps.  It is my understanding that 1.5m length applies to BNC as well, though I've never tested it myself as I only own 1.5m cables.  As for the Audio Sensibility cable you referenced, I have several of their cables and they are a bargain for the price.  I have their OCC Copper ICs and an OCC silver headphone cable for my LCD-X.  My current BNC cable is made by VooDoo Cable but is also OCC silver.  The OCC silver cables are so clean-sounding and don't have any harsh brightness, and I don't think you'll find a better price than Audio Sensibility.  I simply can't recommend them enough and all my future cables will be coming from them.  The Statement SE silver cable would be truly excellent, and the Signature Silver cable would easily be an end-game cable.


----------



## darren700

TitaniumDust said:


> I saw your post and didn't see any replies, so I thought I'd share my limited knowledge in case it helps.  It is my understanding that 1.5m length applies to BNC as well, though I've never tested it myself as I only own 1.5m cables.  As for the Audio Sensibility cable you referenced, I have several of their cables and they are a bargain for the price.  I have their OCC Copper ICs and an OCC silver headphone cable for my LCD-X.  My current BNC cable is made by VooDoo Cable but is also OCC silver.  The OCC silver cables are so clean-sounding and don't have any harsh brightness, and I don't think you'll find a better price than Audio Sensibility.  I simply can't recommend them enough and all my future cables will be coming from them.  The Statement SE silver cable would be truly excellent, and the Signature Silver cable would easily be an end-game cable.



Thanks for the reply and the info. I assumed the rule was the same for BNC but i wasnt sure. I agree that audio sensibility cables are fantastic especially considering their price. All my power cables, interconnects and USB cables in both my headphone setup and speaker setup are Audio Sensibility. I went with OCC Copper statement for all my interconnects and power cables, but OCC Silver statement for the USB cables. I even had Audio Sensibility make me OCC Copper ACSS cables for between my R1 and Master 9 in my headphone setup. (wanted copper to maintain warmth with my headphones)

I actually own a 1m Statement RCA Coaxial cable that sounds great that I purchased for connecting my Marantz CD6005 to my R2R-7 (now connected to DI-20) (note I purchased this cable before I knew the 1.5m rule) 

I have been very happy with the HDMI I2S from DI-20 to R2R-7 and it does native DSD perfect so im doubtful I will invest in a nice BNC cable unless other people find it significantly better than I2S as I want to maintain native DSD.


----------



## jimmychan

Has any body get the Ext. Clock in work? I tried connect to C16 and another clock source of 10MHz, the Clock LED of DI-20 was lit but no sound.


----------



## JaMo

jimmychan said:


> Has any body get the Ext. Clock in work? I tried connect to C16 and another clock source of 10MHz, the Clock LED of DI-20 was lit but no sound.



Yes, I have it running flawlessly right now. In fact it worked right out of the box, fresh started. I am using an Oscilloquartz (Sine wave).Question: -with the C16... -Have You tried the both types of outputs?
/Jan


----------



## jimmychan (Dec 5, 2019)

JaMo said:


> Yes, I have it running flawlessly right now. In fact it worked right out of the box, fresh started. I am using an Oscilloquartz (Sine wave).Question: -with the C16... -Have You tried the both types of outputs?
> /Jan



Yes, I tried both outputs.

Do you notice the improvement of EXT. Clock? What kind of level the EXT. clock can improve?

Update:
Interesting thing is the EXT. Clock IN work with "Serial" Mode Only (Ext. Clock is C16)

Condition: RPi4B USB > DI-20HE > i2S > Audio-gd Reference 1


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 5, 2019)

1.5m coax rule?  If a longer cable sounds better then you may not have matched impedances - source, connectors, cable, load.  The 1.5m rule is just a bandage where impedance mismatch causes signal reflections at the load to not mix and distort the incoming waveform rise/fall time.  A longer cable moves the mismatch reflections out in time to not interfere with the incoming wave.  But a longer cable also has more attenuation and smears (slows) risetime of the wave and causing more jitter.

I've seen examples where a longer cable helped uncontrolled impedance interfaces like TTL I2S.  I think Steve at Empircal Audio sold "tuned" cables that improved TTL I2S.  But if you match impedances all power is absorbed by the load and no reflections.

Here's an example of what signal reflections do to nice square waves from the transmitter.






I like BNC connections as you get true characteristic impedance. RCA connectors can be anything.  50 ohm BNC connectors and cables have more dielectric material (white plastic) than 75 ohm.  See the pic below...  You will notice the DI-20 BNCs have the proper impedance characteristics (75 ohm SPDIF, 50 ohm CLK out, 10Mhz in).


----------



## soundlogic

Can anyone share thier approximate shipping notification/times from the date they sent payment? My order for the DI20HE was placed on Nov. 29th and other than a confirmation, at my urging, of receipt of order...I have not heard or received any updates. Thanks for your replies.


----------



## JaMo

soundlogic said:


> Can anyone share thier approximate shipping notification/times from the date they sent payment? My order for the DI20HE was placed on Nov. 29th and other than a confirmation, at my urging, of receipt of order...I have not heard or received any updates. Thanks for your replies.



Hi,
It takes longer now than earlier years. I ordered among the first units. My DI took 9 days from "shipped inform"(16 nov) to tracking# (21 nov) to delivery (25 nov). I'm living in Sweden so it routes via Germany.
/Jan


----------



## PLGA

soundlogic said:


> Can anyone share thier approximate shipping notification/times from the date they sent payment? My order for the DI20HE was placed on Nov. 29th and other than a confirmation, at my urging, of receipt of order...I have not heard or received any updates. Thanks for your replies.



I placed my order last week on a DI-20 (regular, non HE) and Kingwa told me it should be shipped at the end of this week, or beginning of the next. They are burning the unit.

May be the HE versions could take longer depending on stock units they have. I think they were overcomed by the demand.

They have always respond very quickly to my requests by email.


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Dec 5, 2019)

I ordered on 31/10 from AGD's local distributor. Received this past Tuesday, so just over a month for the DI-20HE. Kingwa informed us ETA 4 weeks when order was placed, so pretty much on time.


----------



## DACLadder

My DI-20 HE will be delivered tomorrow!  Order placed on Nov. 5, 2019.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 5, 2019)

soundlogic said:


> Can anyone share thier approximate shipping notification/times from the date they sent payment? My order for the DI20HE was placed on Nov. 29th and other than a confirmation, at my urging, of receipt of order...I have not heard or received any updates. Thanks for your replies.


Audio GD updated the online shipping log.  It looks the HE is far outselling the standard DI-20. So Kingwa may be trying to catch up. My HE order is taking one month to complete.
http://www.audio-gd.com/Shipment.htm


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> Audio GD updated the online shipping log.  It looks the HE is far outselling the standard DI-20. So Kingwa may be trying to catch up. My HE order is taking one month to complete.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Shipment.htm



It's mostly the Chinese market.  They must have already done all the comparisons.  I wonder what site they review on?  I'm away this weekend but I'll be checking my phone often for DACLadder's day 1,2,3 impressions.


----------



## TitaniumDust

darren700 said:


> Thanks for the reply and the info. I assumed the rule was the same for BNC but i wasnt sure. I agree that audio sensibility cables are fantastic especially considering their price. All my power cables, interconnects and USB cables in both my headphone setup and speaker setup are Audio Sensibility. I went with OCC Copper statement for all my interconnects and power cables, but OCC Silver statement for the USB cables. I even had Audio Sensibility make me OCC Copper ACSS cables for between my R1 and Master 9 in my headphone setup. (wanted copper to maintain warmth with my headphones)
> 
> I actually own a 1m Statement RCA Coaxial cable that sounds great that I purchased for connecting my Marantz CD6005 to my R2R-7 (now connected to DI-20) (note I purchased this cable before I knew the 1.5m rule)
> 
> I have been very happy with the HDMI I2S from DI-20 to R2R-7 and it does native DSD perfect so im doubtful I will invest in a nice BNC cable unless other people find it significantly better than I2S as I want to maintain native DSD.



Thank you for the info!  I'm glad to hear someone else having great success with Audio Sensibility cables.  I was hoping to save up for a DAC with IIS input, but the DI-20 has me thoroughly intrigued, especially if the BNC out is about on par with the IIS out, which early indications seem to say is the case.  I finally got my U16 working great with my simple-use scenario (100% PCM files <= 24/192, BNC out) but the DI-20 opens up more options in the future for SQ and stability should I wish to start exploring DSD and IIS DACs.  These darn peeps have just gotta stop making great hardware - my wallet can't keep up!


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 5, 2019)

Wynnytsky said:


> It's mostly the Chinese market.  They must have already done all the comparisons.  I wonder what site they review on?  I'm away this weekend but I'll be checking my phone often for DACLadder's day 1,2,3 impressions.



The HE orders are probably from fans on AGD's Chinese language forum...  http://bbs.audio-gd.com/index.asp?boardid=2

FredA receives his HE tomorrow as well!  From reports the DI-20 may take a month to sound its best. But I will certainly give my impressions.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> FredA receives his HE tomorrow


If you're wondering why Fred isn't posting it's because he was put in a medical induced comma until the package arrives.

It's a new shipping option on DHL's site where you can sign for your package online.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Can someone explain to me what "ACSS" means???

I understand that this converter has usb input and coax or spdif output- but what is the ACSS part?

Also- does my dac need to have a special "ACSS" input to benefit from this transport is is a regular bnc input on my dac fine?


----------



## newabc

rsbrsvp said:


> Can someone explain to me what "ACSS" means???
> 
> I understand that this converter has usb input and coax or spdif output- but what is the ACSS part?
> 
> Also- does my dac need to have a special "ACSS" input to benefit from this transport is is a regular bnc input on my dac fine?



Kingwa said the SPDIF acss output is compatible with most of the DACs. Now I am using a BNC-BNC cable to connect SPDIF acss of DI-20 and SPDIF coaxial input of my DAC.


----------



## PLGA

Wynnytsky said:


> If you're wondering why Fred isn't posting it's because he was put in a medical induced comma until the package arrives.



 Most of us need that while waiting for New gear to arrive!!


----------



## FredA (Dec 5, 2019)

Wynnytsky said:


> If you're wondering why Fred isn't posting it's because he was put in a medical induced comma until the package arrives.
> 
> It's a new shipping option on DHL's site where you can sign for your package online.


That's a real good one! Can't stop laughing! Especially since my delivery was postponed by one day, which means, fingers crossed, i should get it tomorrow.


----------



## darren700

DACLadder said:


> 1.5m coax rule?  If a longer cable sounds better then you may not have matched impedances - source, connectors, cable, load.  The 1.5m rule is just a bandage where impedance mismatch causes signal reflections at the load to not mix and distort the incoming waveform rise/fall time.  A longer cable moves the mismatch reflections out in time to not interfere with the incoming wave.  But a longer cable also has more attenuation and smears (slows) risetime of the wave and causing more jitter.
> 
> I've seen examples where a longer cable helped uncontrolled impedance interfaces like TTL I2S.  I think Steve at Empircal Audio sold "tuned" cables that improved TTL I2S.  But if you match impedances all power is absorbed by the load and no reflections.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this very informative post. I was wondering why the BNC clock connector looked different that the spdif BNC connector on my DI-20. Now I know..


----------



## DACLadder

The DI-20 HE delivery is a no-show today. It is stuck in U.S. Customs for the past 24 hrs.  Most likely will be rescheduled for Monday


----------



## DACLadder

The Gustard U16 uses a 50 ohm BNC connector for its S/PDIF output (75 ohm).  Both S/PDIF out and 10M Clk in have the same 50 ohm connector type.  Attention to detail drives me crazy sometimes.




 


The DI-20 HE is 40 miles away and hopefully delivered tomorrow.  I forgot it was Black Friday shipping week.  No wonder shipments are slow


----------



## rsbrsvp

Has anyone tested to see if audiophile power cables make a difference in sonics over the cheapeast basic cable?

It is hard for me to believe that with a regenerative power supply that the power cable will matter but Audio-gd says it does.


----------



## Currawong

My understanding is that power cables can pick up noise, and high frequency noise travels shorter distances, so the power cable connected to a component can affect it to varying degrees.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Has anyone tested to see if audiophile power cables make a difference in sonics over the cheapeast basic cable?
> 
> It is hard for me to believe that with a regenerative power supply that the power cable will matter but Audio-gd says it does.


All audio gear that i have tried, including the cheapest r2r-11, benefit from a cord with 14awg or bigger. The power amps like 10awg or bigger.


----------



## FredA

Currawong said:


> My understanding is that power cables can pick up noise, and high frequency noise travels shorter distances, so the power cable connected to a component can affect it to varying degrees.


Are you going to review the DI-20, Amos?


----------



## rsbrsvp

Does this mean the power cable does or does not make a difference????
__________________________________________________________________________

Dear Steven,
If you unbelieve the cable can effect the sound we will send a stock cable to you.
In theory, any unit can not effect on sound by the 1.5M power cable, there are around 1500M or more normal cable before the power feed to the unit.
I have not recommend in fact there are a lot hifi power cable in market.
Kingwa


----------



## Jackula

rsbrsvp said:


> It is hard for me to believe that with a regenerative power supply that the power cable will matter but Audio-gd says it does.



There are several reasons for this:

1. Noise output - noise inside your power cable is easy to treat, i.e. via power conditioning, regeneration, etc. But noise coming out of your power cable is a serious detriment to audio equipment. At the bare minimum, you should have shielding on your power cable that drains to ground. The most problematic part of a power cable isn't the cable itself, but the connectors, which are very hard to shield. The aluminium shell around your audio equipment only reduces EMI, it doesn't eliminate.

2. Vibration - vibration (or mechnical noise) of your power cables can affect the performance of your device just as EMI does. I.e. vibration from your wall socket, or from your floor covering, into your component. But this point is moot if you don't have good vibration management for your component in the first place.

3. Gauge - like @FredA said the gauge on your cable makes a difference too, my understanding is to do with heat. Thicker conductors run cooler carrying the same amount of current as thinner conductors, as heat increases and decreases, on the conductor sends random electrical noise down the line, increasing the amount of input and output noise from your power cable. 

The Furutech FI-28 is my favourite IEC connector because it helps absorb stray EMI from your cable as well as provide vibration dampening. And I use 10 AWG with all my gear.


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> There are several reasons for this:
> 
> 1. Noise output - noise inside your power cable is easy to treat, i.e. via power conditioning, regeneration, etc. But noise coming out of your power cable is a serious detriment to audio equipment. At the bare minimum, you should have shielding on your power cable that drains to ground. The most problematic part of a power cable isn't the cable itself, but the connectors, which are very hard to shield. The aluminium shell around your audio equipment only reduces EMI, it doesn't eliminate.
> 
> ...


I have a 4.5awg coming in, heavily shielded, with shield connected to ground and metal connectors,  well damped conductors to reduce vibration-induced noise... I will use it on my main power bar.


----------



## PLGA

rsbrsvp said:


> Has anyone tested to see if audiophile power cables make a difference in sonics over the cheapeast basic cable?
> 
> It is hard for me to believe that with a regenerative power supply that the power cable will matter but Audio-gd says it does.



For me, a good Hi-Fi power cable does make a difference. Of course, the more revealing the system, the bigger the difference. 

This weekend I've changed the power cables of my Audio-gd R8 DAC and my Gustard U16, from DH Labs AC Power Plus to their flagship AC Red Wave, both bought bulk and to DIY.

Well, I really dont know the technical answer and I dont care, I trust my ears. The upgraded cables made the sound more transparent and smoother. Not a night and day difference, but noticeable and worthwile for me. A similar impact occurred when I made the same change on my power amp.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Dec 9, 2019)

PLGA said:


> For me, a good Hi-Fi power cable does make a difference. Of course, the more revealing the system, the bigger the difference.
> 
> This weekend I've changed the power cables of my Audio-gd R8 DAC and my Gustard U16, from DH Labs AC Power Plus to their flagship AC Red Wave, both bought bulk and to DIY.
> 
> Well, I really dont know the technical answer and I dont care, I trust my ears. The upgraded cables made the sound more transparent and smoother. Not a night and day difference, but noticeable and worthwile for me. A similar impact occurred when I made the same change on my power amp.



I find that almost every seemingly minor change in any system I have had over the years makes a meaningful difference.  IC's,  headphone cable, usb cable, and anti-vibration feet, and even to a smaller degree- audiophile fuses all make to my ears very meaningful differences which my ears can spot and appreciate within a very short listening period.  There is one exception;- power cables.  I have tried the $300 version and up to $1,500 and returned them all for a refund as I can tell NO difference on any system I have ever had.  I once even replaced my power outlet with one of those fancy audiophile gold plated ones with absolutely zero results.

Perhaps my system is not very revealing but it certainly picks up on every single other minor change I make in every other area.


----------



## motberg

Jackula said:


> There are several reasons for this:
> 
> 1. Noise output - noise inside your power cable is easy to treat, i.e. via power conditioning, regeneration, etc. But noise coming out of your power cable is a serious detriment to audio equipment. At the bare minimum, you should have shielding on your power cable that drains to ground. The most problematic part of a power cable isn't the cable itself, but the connectors, which are very hard to shield. The aluminium shell around your audio equipment only reduces EMI, it doesn't eliminate.
> 
> ...



I have a TriField RFI/EMI meter.... I find where the IEC connector enters the device socket there is usually a substantial RFI field present. If there are nearby analog or digital connections, I use 1mm or thicker MuMetal shield sheet, 1 layer can knock that RFI down pretty well. As you also mention, those typical thin extruded aluminum boxes seems to not do much at all for strong EMI, I have found 2 x MuMetal sheets is roughly equivalent to 18CM distance for EMI control.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 9, 2019)

rsbrsvp said:


> Does this mean the power cable does or does not make a difference????
> __________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Dear Steven,
> ...



Kingwa is saying that power cables make a difference and that is why he is not shipping the common plastic power cables with the DI (unless you want one included).  Kingwa is repeating the old refrain of "In theory why does the last 1.5m of power cable make any difference at all". And he stops short of making recommendations.

I swapped power cable on my amplifier this week and it warmed the sound so much I soon went back. The rejected cable though (Furukawa) works very well for the R7 and tamed the "brightness" associated with the parallel asynchronous firmware. At this level of performance anything minute can make noticeable differences.


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> Kingwa is saying that power cables make a difference and that is why he is not shipping the common plastic power cables with the DI (unless you want one included).  Kingwa is repeating the old refrain of "In theory why does the last 1.5m of power cable make any difference at all". And he stops short of making recommendations.
> 
> I swapped power cable on my amplifier this week and it warmed the sound so much I soon went back. The rejected cable though (Furukawa) works very well for the R7 and tamed to "brightness" associated with the parallel asynchronous firmware. At this level of performance anything minute can make noticeable differences.


Matching is important.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

Hola folks.  I'm happily burning in the DI-20HE with my R7HE, but now I'm looking for a good BNC cable to test the ACSS SPDIF, primarily with my older Master-11S as the latter is the 1st gen with RJ45 IIS, no HDMI input.  

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XSLRYVV/

Opinions?  Belden 4794R 16AWG cable, silver plated copper.  

Was also looking at Wireworld's Silver Starlight BNC cable (occ silver) but that's $300 for 1.5m, and I havent made up my mind yet whether I want to start min-maxing the M-11S setup seeing that I use the R7HE mostly....


----------



## mivarpet

UsoppNoKami said:


> my older Master-11S as the latter is the 1st gen with RJ45 IIS, no HDMI input.



I suggest you email Kingwa to see if you can convert to HDMI, the output of which should be the same.  My Master 7 had RJ I2S when I got it and I converted it to HDMI I2S and it was quite inexpensive.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

mivarpet said:


> I suggest you email Kingwa to see if you can convert to HDMI, the output of which should be the same.  My Master 7 had RJ I2S when I got it and I converted it to HDMI I2S and it was quite inexpensive.



thanks for that... DI-20 only has 1 HDMI output though, so I wouldnt be able to swap sources in a jiffy.  hate having to mess around at the back of the rack hehe

the one thing i really liked about my Singxer SU-6 was dual HDMI IIS ports and 1 RJ45 IIS output.  miss having that bit of functionality, as I could hook up both DACs at the same time.

I'll probably stick to the BNC ACSS quest for the M-11S, since it doesnt support DSD anyway, not really losing anything by forgoing USB/IIS if the ACSS SPDIF sounds as good.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 9, 2019)

UsoppNoKami said:


> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XSLRYVV/
> Opinions?  Belden 4794R 16AWG cable, silver plated copper.
> Was also looking at Wireworld's Silver Starlight BNC cable (occ silver) but that's $300 for 1.5m, and I havent made up my mind yet whether I want to start min-maxing the M-11S setup seeing that I use the R7HE mostly....



If you need a long cable the Belden 4794R cable would not be a bad way to go.  Keep in mind this cable is thick (1/3" dia) and most likely very stiff for routing and wide bend radius on short runs.

Always like cables that have published specs...
https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/4794R_techdata.pdf


----------



## PLGA

Hello guys

Any other new owner of a DI-20 or DI-20HE who could share his impressions with us?


----------



## Articnoise

One of the reason why the power cord matters on a regenerative power supply is because the flow of electricity is circulating, and the power that didn’t get used by the power supply is sent back to the mains. It is called Backfeeding and can be “dirty”.


----------



## PLGA

Articnoise said:


> One of the reason why the power cord matters on a regenerative power supply is because the flow of electricity is circulating, and the power that didn’t get used by the power supply is sent back to the mains. It is called Backfeeding and can be “dirty”.



Well, I have NO idea about technical issues and I was very skeptic first, but then I tried changing some of power cords and now I'm a believer. 

I've found a noticeable difference changing stock cords with DH Labs cheapest bulk DIY cord (AC Power Plus) and then changing some of the lattest to their flagship AC Red Wave. In my case at least, it wasnt a day and night difference, but TOTALLY worthwile. I didnt need to change several times to realize, just a couple of songs and there it is. 

By the way, if to find a difference after changing a component in my system, I have to listen several times because it's hard to tell for sure, it's not worth keeping it. For instance, in my system the PS Audio Noise Harvesters and Synergistic Research HFT among others.


----------



## Jackula

motberg said:


> I have a TriField RFI/EMI meter.... I find where the IEC connector enters the device socket there is usually a substantial RFI field present. If there are nearby analog or digital connections, I use 1mm or thicker MuMetal shield sheet, 1 layer can knock that RFI down pretty well. As you also mention, those typical thin extruded aluminum boxes seems to not do much at all for strong EMI, I have found 2 x MuMetal sheets is roughly equivalent to 18CM distance for EMI control.



Thanks, I had to look up what that is.

The main ingredient for its magic appears to be Molybdenum, which has properties similar to Graphite, which converts EMI into heat. Many companies now adopt a similar approach to reducing EMI from audio equipment or cables, like Studio Connections that uses graphite on the ground wire and Supratek that uses a hybrid graphite-nylon insulation for shielding. Similarly the Furutech FI-28 also has graphite particles in the connector.

I've been meaning to buy a few graphite sheets from eBay and start wrapping my cables with it, but I might get that EMI meter you mentioned, so I can get a reading of the the before and after effects.


----------



## DACLadder

DHL delivered the DI-20 HE a short while ago, ripped open the box, connected it to the system (I2S), and making music!  The HE is still cold from being on the delivery truck and I am liking what I hear compared to the SU-6.  But too early to tell how the DI-20 HE will eventually settle. Not disappointed in the least!  Let the burn-in begin (again!!).

Comparing to the SU-6 the cold DI-20 HE has slightly less grain.  Bass is deep and sound is huge. With headphones I am awash in sound - left, right, front, back. Timbres have good color.  Relaxed but in a comforting way (not overly warm). Background is inky black. With the HE my system begs me to turn up the volume which is a good sign. Using just internal Accusilicon XOs at this time.

The D-20 HE operation is very nice with the Aurender music server.  No super loud clicks and pops on sampling rate changes or with mix PCM-DSD playback transitions.

Others have reported good days and better days with the DI-20 during burn-in (30+ days). I'm sure you will hear from me plenty but how does the DI-20 compared to the U16?  I am ready to toss my three Gustards on the bonfire!


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 9, 2019)

After a few hours system warm up the DI-20 HE is spectacular compared to the SU-6 (std. power supply).  The DI HE has less grain, especially vocals, and more liquid/ organic like the U16.  Classic AGD bass rhythm and drive using the R7.

Liking what I hear at this very early stage!  The Force is strong with the DI-20 HE !!


----------



## jimmychan

After one week of receiving the DI20HE, my 2 U16 definitely can be thrown away. The DI20HE is far much better than those U16 SU6 SU1 even without burn in. 

I placed order for my second DI20HE and waiting for its delivery.


----------



## JaMo

My DI20HE now has >360 hours and the sound is really starting to meet my rather high expectations... Very gentle and pleasing where it should be so. Revealing without being too analytical. A lot of dark space as background. Just a very obvious and pleasing approach of all the parts that together builds or more correct, waves together to build the music experience for me. It is graceful and effortless. It has around half of its expected burn in-time and already occasionally performing at its best. Another more or less magic device from Kingwa. As @jimmychan I am about to order another one...
/Jan


----------



## ToddRaymond

Thank-you for your impressions, everyone.  And thank-you @DACLadder for weighing in.  While I'm not surprised to hear that it's performing better than the SU-6, I am a little surprised that it's so immediately obvious to you, despite your DI-20HE being both cold and not yet burned in!  I'll probably stick with my SU-6 for now, as I "only" currently have the R-28, but I'll definitely be getting a DI-20HE along with my eventual R-7HE.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ToddRaymond said:


> Thank-you for your impressions, everyone.  And thank-you @DACLadder for weighing in.



Yes and I'd also take this time to recognize @DACLadder (please stand up) for making me pull the trigger, though he could have just said "oh yeah, more better" and the outcome would have been pretty much the same.  When the child in you wants stuff you have to play the adult and make up some trivial obstacles/conditions that'll be easily overcome.  You get what you want and you can still pat yourself on the back -- "oh yeah unlike some I'm skeptical and responsible with this stuff"


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> Yes and I'd also take this time to recognize @DACLadder (please stand up) for making me pull the trigger, though he could have just said "oh yeah, more better" and the outcome would have been pretty much the same.  When the child in you wants stuff you have to play the adult and make up some trivial obstacles/conditions that'll be easily overcome.  You get what you want and you can still pat yourself on the back -- "oh yeah unlike some I'm skeptical and responsible with this stuff"


Congrats Victor! You should not regret it. It should need over 350 hours, if not 700 hours of burn-in.

Finally got my unit, it's been burning for 6 hours, first comments within the next hours!


----------



## FredA

Right from the start, the di20-he beats the u16 with superior mids, resolution, depth and instrument localization.  Only the bass extension is lacking compared to the u16, for now. So it is a very positive first impression.  I think it's the beginning of a long friendship. So long, u16! This is using i2s with my external ocxo.


----------



## FredA

On the Touch of your Lips, album and track, Chet Baker's voice and trumpet sound more real than before. Very involving presentation.


----------



## FredA

Frankly, the sound, with my optimized setup (usbridge fed with a pair of lps through a balanced isolation transfo  to intona to di20-he using two excellent silver usb cables, then to r7-he), the rendition is already quite phenomenal. Big dynamic bass, awesome piano and drums, liquid and dynamic sound...  Great imaging, timbres... Very engaging presentation. Congratulations, Kingwa. You are a master!


----------



## FredA

Now, i am laughing. On Dave Gruising, The Geshwin Connection, an excellent recording, it is a pure joy. Just wonderful. So much depth, such layering. Outstanding. The u16 is like a toy in comparison.


----------



## FredA

Now that my gears (pre, dac, and amp) have warmed up,  the u16 is clearly beaten on all criteria that i can think of.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 10, 2019)

@FredA  Congrats on finally receiving your DI-20 HE!  So happy to hear your impressions.

@Wynnytsky @ToddRaymond  I get kickbacks on every AGD product sold..thank you very much!  No... not really.   I'm just a big fan of Kingwa!! For the past three years all my DACs sound better every 3-4 months.  Many firmware revisions, a few hardware changes, and my system is reborn.  The DI-20 HE is right there as a solid tweak (most likely) and makes my system sound better.

2019 is heck of a year in AGD universe!  Accusilicon XOs, two major firmware releases, V2 DAC modules, and now the DI!  Extraordinary work Kingwa!  Take a break!  You deserve it!


----------



## FredA (Dec 10, 2019)

As some noted, sound quality fluctuactes quite rapidly at the beginning. I lost some quality for a couple of hours, now it is recovering. Lack of sub-bass right now.

Very stable unit operationally, no issue whatsover so far. The external 10m input also works like a charm, great programming job!


----------



## soundlogic

It’s wonderful to see that all who have received their DI20’s are pleased. I just received my tracking number tonight! YeeHa! Can anyone in the USA comment on ETA from when they received tracking to actual delivery’s?
Thanks.


----------



## JaMo (Dec 11, 2019)

It may be good to know that some patience is needed during the maturing of the DI's. From about day 4 to about day 14 there was a "not that excellent" performance. It was clean and sublime..not very interesting. The real blossom has started with mine now.(~370h). The engagement and embracing feelings are back now and the sound stage have expanded the last days... All this was present during the wild fluctuation days (day 1-2) but sunk away for a while... I report this so You don't feel disappointed during these approx.10 days. Just leave it playing 24/7 and You will soon find Yourself smiling while exploring Your music on another level. This morning was a "Wow"-morning. I have said it before.. -This DI20HE will never leave my home.
/Jan

ps It should be interesting to hear more about the non-HE DI.


----------



## darren700

I just emailed Audio-GD requesting to order a DI-20HE in addition to the DI-20 90/98 i already have.
Im hoping there is some benefit to the HE option even when feeding from my HE-350. It will be interesting to see if I can tell the difference between the two in my system.
The DI-20 90/98 I currently have will go to my headphone setup with R1 and Master 9.


----------



## FredA

@darren700 it seems like Kingwa will break sales records!


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> It’s wonderful to see that all who have received their DI20’s are pleased. I just received my tracking number tonight! YeeHa! Can anyone in the USA comment on ETA from when they received tracking to actual delivery’s?
> Thanks.


Should take one week or so based on experience, but i am in Canada. Things are usually a bit quicker in the US. It is a busy time for shipping cies, so there can be delays.


----------



## darren700 (Dec 11, 2019)

FredA said:


> @darren700 it seems like Kingwa will break sales records!


You are probably right, but this breakthrough in DDC technology really deserves it. I have a feeling the DI-20 design will not be beat anytime soon.
Great job Kingwa for designing such a great piece of gear for all of us to enjoy.
Audio-GD really seems like a diamond in the rough to me. Great performance from all of their products at realistic prices not blown up by marketing costs like other brands. FiiO also seems to follow this same mindset. I wish more companies would follow suit.


----------



## PLGA

JaMo said:


> ps It should be interesting to hear more about the non-HE DI.



I'm also very interested on hearing about this. Mostly compared with the U16.

I've got mine non-HE version shipped today. I cant wait!!!

PS: is it too dificult to set the drivers and make it work?


----------



## DACLadder

PLGA said:


> PS: is it too dificult to set the drivers and make it work?



I just plugged it in and it was making music.  But I have a non-Windows OS.  The Windows driver should be the same as the Amanero USB board (I would think).


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> I just plugged it in and it was making music.  But I have a non-Windows OS.  The Windows driver should be the same as the Amanero USB board (I would think).


Yes it is. It is still an amanero usb interface, only it is now integrated in Kingwa`s design for much improved performance.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 11, 2019)

@soundlogic  My order took about 10 days from the time I received notice from AGD.  Longer than I remember in past as it is the holiday season perhaps (DHL).

Glad a few are ordering HE and non-HE. That would be the next question in mind. How do these two compare?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Anybody know which Canare cable AGD uses in it's BNC/BNC cable?

Ghent uses Belden 1694A (18awg)
https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/e07.html

I'm going to start with a 1.5m L-2.5CHD (23awg)
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=135

and see how that compares to a 1.0m Audioquest Vodka


----------



## JaMo

Wynnytsky said:


> Anybody know which Canare cable AGD uses in it's BNC/BNC cable?
> 
> Ghent uses Belden 1694A (18awg)
> https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/e07.html
> ...



I am reading on one: "75 Ohm Coaxial Cable L-5CFB CANARE 1102 Made In Japan"


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> Anybody know which Canare cable AGD uses in it's BNC/BNC cable?
> 
> Ghent uses Belden 1694A (18awg)
> https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/e07.html
> ...


I can recommend hdmi. With a 0.5m Moshou hdmi cable, the sound is as good or better than with my 0.5m DH LABS D75.


----------



## JaMo

Link to the Canare: http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=80


----------



## DACLadder

ACSS S/PDIF output is very interesting. It does sound differently than I2S but in a very good way on my system. I can see why some users may prefer it and think ACSS S/PDIF is more balanced. I'm just using my go to 0.5m Beldin 1694A S/PDIF cable with an RCA plug on one end feeding IN2 on the R7.  Oyaide BNC cable arrives tomorrow.

Give both I2S and ACSS S/PDIF a try!  They sound excellent with the R7. S/PDIF has never sounded better!


----------



## Wynnytsky

@DACLadder 

the specs claim the r2r7 and r7 (2020 version) go up to 192khz on spdif, yet the di20 claims 384.  What is your R7 able to do?

Somebody on this thread claimed 1.5m is a good coax to mitigate avoid reflections making it the full length of the cable.  What length will you Oyaide be?


----------



## Pappas3278

Piggy-backing onto Wynnytsky's question about 192khz/384khz.

Does the DI-20 do the DSD processing or is it the DAC that it is attached to?


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 12, 2019)

@Wynnytsky  On the DI-20/ R7 combo I get no sound out of the R7 on S/PDIF at 352K and 384K sampling rates.  HDMI I2S works OK. 

My Oyaide S/PDIF cable is 0.7m in length. There should be no reflections on any length of cable if impedance is matched throughout. Shorter length is preferred as jitter increases with cable length due to normal attenuation.  At least that is the theory. Same goes for HDMI I2S. But 1.5m may be golden for whatever reasons.  Never say never until proven.

@Pappas3278  The DAC processes DSD.  The DI does no data conversion that I know.


----------



## Jackula

Wynnytsky said:


> @DACLadderthe specs claim the r2r7 and r7 (2020 version) go up to 192khz on spdif, yet the di20 claims 384.  What is your R7 able to do?



I get static out of the R7HE with SPDIF at 384K. Kingwa told me has developed a 384khz R7 firmware for SPDIF, it's currently being tested.


----------



## motberg

Hey guys, if possible, can someone check if any degradation to the DDC output when having 2 devices attached simultaneously?
I found with the U16, that if I drove the main DAC with i2s and a second DAC (for subs) with optical or RCA, that there was some degrading of the main i2s output.
Thanks in advance....


----------



## FredA

motberg said:


> Hey guys, if possible, can someone check if any degradation to the DDC output when having 2 devices attached simultaneously?
> I found with the U16, that if I drove the main DAC with i2s and a second DAC (for subs) with optical or RCA, that there was some degrading of the main i2s output.
> Thanks in advance....


I am using both the bnc and the i2s output at the same time to my r7. Sound quality is excellent so i doubt there is any degradation.


----------



## Jackula

DACLadder said:


> I can see why some users may prefer it and think ACSS S/PDIF is more balanced



It's weird. I find ACSS SPDIF more balanced out of the headphone output of my HE9. OTOH I prefer I2S when using the HE9 as my preamp to my Hulgich Duke speakers.


----------



## Jackula

FredA said:


> I can recommend hdmi. With a 0.5m Moshou hdmi cable, the sound is as good or better than with my 0.5m DH LABS D75.



I got the Moshou on your recommendation


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> It's weird. I find ACSS SPDIF more balanced out of the headphone output of my HE9. OTOH I prefer I2S when using the HE9 as my preamp to my Hulgich Duke speakers.


Your  power amps have burn-in to do so this could change.


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> I got the Moshou on your recommendation


I got only the 2.0b spec and not the larger 2.1 version. Still beats the 2.1 in 1m length i have. Bot are seriously well built cables. I will buy a silver cable at some point if i can find an affordable one, but doubt it exists.


----------



## darren700

FredA said:


> I got only the 2.0b spec and not the larger 2.1 version. Still beats the 2.1 in 1m length i have. Bot are seriously well built cables. I will buy a silver cable at some point if i can find an affordable one, but doubt it exists.



Can you link the one you bought Fred? just curious. I actually bought a 0.5m Moshou 2.1 today to see if there would be an improvement vs the 1m version of the same cable I have


----------



## FredA

T


darren700 said:


> Can you link the one you bought Fred? just curious. I actually bought a 0.5m Moshou 2.1 today to see if there would be an improvement vs the 1m version of the same cable I have


The 2.1 is likely better but this is the one i got:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Moshou-Enth...var=502838276291&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## FredA

I started getting sub-bass 15 min. ago.

Frankly, i have never experienced a device varying so much from hour to hour. After being just a little better than the u16, it now is superb.


----------



## JaMo

motberg said:


> Hey guys, if possible, can someone check if any degradation to the DDC output when having 2 devices attached simultaneously?
> I found with the U16, that if I drove the main DAC with i2s and a second DAC (for subs) with optical or RCA, that there was some degrading of the main i2s output.
> Thanks in advance....



Kingwa gave a positive answer on this when I asked earlier. So Yes, You can use all outputs at the same time without any sound degradation.
/Jan


----------



## ToddRaymond

On the other hand, he said that if I was order an R7 with two sets of ACSS outputs, that the sound quality would be compromised.  It would be better to have the ACSS going to my (eventual) HE-1 (speakers are greater priority), and use the XLRs out to an HE-9 at my nearby desk.  Of course, I could just get an HE-9 only, but I'm thinking the more neutral HE-1 might be a better fit for my system and tastes.


----------



## JaMo

ToddRaymond said:


> On the other hand, he said that if I was order an R7 with two sets of ACSS outputs, that the sound quality would be compromised.  It would be better to have the ACSS going to my (eventual) HE-1 (speakers are greater priority), and use the XLRs out to an HE-9 at my nearby desk.  Of course, I could just get an HE-9 only, but I'm thinking the more neutral HE-1 might be a better fit for my system and tastes.



The R7's outputs is a different story. There it is an analog amplification. The DI can output digital signals together on: I2S (HDMI), SPDIF and AES/EBU without degradation.
/Jan


----------



## darren700

JaMo said:


> The R7's outputs is a different story. There it is an analog amplification. The DI can output digital signals together on: I2S (HDMI), SPDIF and AES/EBU without degradation.
> /Jan



Hmm, this makes me wonder. Currently with my R2R-7 I use the XLR out to connect to my 2 channel preamp, but also connect the RCA out to my Marantz surround sound receiver so I can listen to simulated surround sound If i Want (which is basically never). I wonder if having the RCA's connected is degrading my XLR output?


----------



## JaMo

You should ask Kingwa about it. (I personally, would not load the outputs in that assymetric way)


----------



## FredA

JaMo said:


> You should ask Kingwa about it. (I personally, would not load the outputs in that assymetric way)


I remember Kingwa saying it was ok. As long as the loads are not difficult, i should not cause much problem, if any. 

From a purist perspective, it would better to split rca or xlr, using the same for both uses.


----------



## darren700

JaMo said:


> You should ask Kingwa about it. (I personally, would not load the outputs in that assymetric way)





FredA said:


> I remember Kingwa saying it was ok. As long as the loads are not difficult, i should not cause much problem, if any.
> From a purist perspective, it would better to split rca or xlr, using the same for both uses.



Thanks for the answers. I will probably just disconnect the RCA's to be safe since I rarely use them.

Back to the topic at hand, I asked Kingwa if I would notice a difference with DI-20HE + HE-350   vs  DI-20 90/98 + HE-350 and he said the following:

"I have not try this connection.
In theory the DI20HE input power is more pure , less interrupt, can help the regenerative parts working better , and help the output wave more pure .
I think can connect and improve but it need the compare by yourself."

I have a feeling the difference may be very small. I might end up with the DI-20HE in my headphone system as I only have a APC H15 power conditioner in that setup.


----------



## motberg

I have found quite a few devices where the analog output also gets degraded when multiple outputs from the same source are used - compared to using a single set of outputs.
... this certainly can be some type of confirmation bias on my part, but the subjective "evidence" to me has been strong enough that I now avoid using multiple outputs for DACs and very carefully check for DDC's (digital) and preamps (analog). BTW - all the Audio-GD preamps I have used were OK for using multiple outputs combining ACSS, XLR and RCA without noticeable degradation...


----------



## DACLadder

Yesterday I connected the DI-20 HE to Windows and it played OK with the old Amanero USB driver (Foobar 2000).  I must have loaded that driver 3-4 yrs ago.

The DI-20 seems very stable using the internal XOs.


----------



## jimmychan (Dec 12, 2019)

I received my second DI20HE today. Thanks KingWa. Now it is playing music through Roon non-stop to burn in. This is for my R7 in the living room. My 2 x U16 gonna be history.

I wonder how you guys found the sounding differences of "P" & "S" mode.


----------



## FredA (Dec 12, 2019)

I have 54 hours done of burn in on my units. And the sound is currently sublime. This is an immersive experience. Smooth, ultra-resolved, with a deep, articulated and impactful bass. Such depth in imaging. Such texture in timbres like with the cellos.

Going from the u16 to the di20-he is as big a step as going from the r2r-7 to the r7he. That is with the r7he in the first case, which amplifies the difference,  i assume.

What it tells me is Kingwa has tuned his dacs using a first-class transport. And unless you have one, you really don't know the limits of you equipment.

With the di20-he, Kingwa has hit the nail so hard on the head it must be somewhere in hell.


----------



## FredA

The sound is so good that even though i am currently training in the basement, it still grabs my full attention.

If I can make a gastrnomic comparison, hearing the DI perform like this is like having good champagne for the first time.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 12, 2019)

The HE version of the DI-20 is shaping up to be a benchmark product.  What could beat it?  Pink Faun with the uber oscillator?  

Day 2 had a little variation in sound but I2S is superb. Deep bass, dynamic, clear and crisp.  ACSS SPDIF not quite as dynamic but tonally very nice.  Fine wine nice!  Still waiting on Oyaide S/PDIF cable for more testing.

@jimmychan  I forgot about serial data processing ‘S’ mode versus default ‘P’ parallel.  Actually I haven’t even touched the front panel but will try soon.

And I wonder how the regular DI-20 stacks up to the HE??  And if ordering a standard DI-20 get the Accusilicon TCXO version. Don’t cheap out where it counts.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Anyone try using a external OCXO clock with the DI-20 yet, like the guys in the Gustard U16 thread?


----------



## newabc (Dec 12, 2019)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Anyone try using a external OCXO clock with the DI-20 yet, like the guys in the Gustard U16 thread?



Mine is a regular 90/98 DI-20 and burned in for around 10 days. I am using a $70-grade external OCXO clock(the new and cheapest one in ebay) with a Teradak DC-30 LPS and a RG400 30cm cable. A BNC-BNC cable connects the SPDIF acss out of DI-20 and the SPDIF coaxial input of DAC. I cannot distinguish any obvious differences between the internal 90/98 clock and the external one now.
(BTW, I think the external clock with GPS input correction will be better than OCXO one.)

Kingwa said in the email that somebody said the external clock is better on symphonies and the internal one is better on vocals.


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> The HE version of the DI-20 is shaping up to be a benchmark product.  What could beat it?  Pink Faun with the uber oscillator?
> 
> Day 2 had a little variation in sound but I2S is superb. Deep bass, dynamic, clear and crisp.  ACSS SPDIF not quite as dynamic but tonally very nice.  Fine wine nice!  Still waiting on Oyaide S/PDIF cable for more testing.
> 
> ...


I am using the external clock and am blown away but agree that one should opt for the expensive tcxos. The di20 is a huge success already based on the feedbacks and sales.


----------



## FredA

Thenewguy007 said:


> Anyone try using a external OCXO clock with the DI-20 yet, like the guys in the Gustard U16 thread?


All my feedbacks are with an ebay external ocxo, without the sattelite correction, fed by an ebay lps through a ghentaudio silver plated and shielded dc cable.


----------



## FredA

Best bass ever in my system. It is so fleshy, you feel like biting on it. All is just wonderful and so expressive listening to Marsalis Unbearable Blackness.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 12, 2019)

Those are good points about external clocking and the base DI-20 XOs.  Why spend money on the Accusilicons if they aren’t used?


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> Those are good points about external clocking and the base DI-20 XOs.  Why spend money on the Accusilicons if they aren’t used?


This is a legitimate approach. More expensive however.


----------



## JaMo

On this price level I think it is a bad idea to "limit the device" by picking the lowest grade internal XO's. Even if You don't intend to use the internal XO's yourself, a potential next owner may like to use it without Ext XO.. The XO's are vital for these digital devices.


----------



## DACLadder

This morning I tried serial 'S' data processing mode on the Di-20 HE (I2S out).  Not bad but parallel 'P' is more dynamic, open, and spacious.  Serial reminded me somewhat of the Singxer SU-6 but with less grain. Parallel mode is the 'chosen one' for me!

The DI-20 HE with internal Accusilicon XOs is sublime. Eventually will try external 10M but waiting on a power supply for the OCXO.  .

Has any one tried reclocking S/PDIF with the DI-20?  Like S/PDIF in and I2S out.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 13, 2019)

If you are on the fence Audio GD is now offering its annual holiday sales.  5% off on a single product and 7.5% on combos.

*Xmas & New Year promote,
All products have 5% OFF,Combo purchase 7.5% OFF.*


----------



## PLGA

DACLadder said:


> This morning I tried serial 'S' data processing mode on the Di-20 HE (I2S out).  Not bad but parallel 'P' is more dynamic, open, and spacious.  Serial reminded me somewhat of the Singxer SU-6 but with less grain. Parallel mode is the 'chosen one' for me!
> 
> The DI-20 HE with internal Accusilicon XOs is sublime. Eventually will try external 10M but waiting on a power supply for the OCXO.  .
> 
> Has any one tried reclocking S/PDIF with the DI-20?  Like S/PDIF in and I2S out.



Hello Scott,
Thank you for your neverending contributions to these AGD threads.

My DI-20 its coming next week and there's something I dont understand completely. Sorry for my ignorance, but can you select the option of Parallel or Serial processing on the DI-20 having the V3A firmware on my R8 DAC?  Can it work that way?


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 13, 2019)

@PLGA  Switchable serial and parallel data processing is exclusive to the DI-20 at this time.  And is independent of the firmware used on the DAC.  So yes it can work the way you suggest.  If you want to try parallel mode on the DAC you have to reprogram to latest DSDCLK or DoP firmware.  (and highly recommended!)


----------



## Articnoise

Looks like that so far the DI-20 is only used together with other AGD DACs. Is there anyone that owns a DAC from another company that can test the ACSS SPDIF with the DI-20 or DI-20HE?


----------



## jimmychan

I have two DI-20HE and doing an quick experiment. Two DI are cascade together. That is RPi4B > USB(1) > SPDIF(1) out > SPDIF (2) In > i2s (2) out > Audio-gd Reference one.

On my initial testing, I can say it has positive impact on the sound quality.


----------



## JaMo

jimmychan said:


> I have two DI-20HE and doing an quick experiment. Two DI are cascade together. That is RPi4B > USB(1) > SPDIF(1) out > SPDIF (2) In > i2s (2) out > Audio-gd Reference one.
> 
> On my initial testing, I can say it has positive impact on the sound quality.



Interesting experiment! A little early though.. Thanks for the info.
/Jan


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 13, 2019)

@jimmychan  Never thought of that but great experiment.  Are you externally clocking both the cascaded DIs?

I connected the SU-6 S/PDIF out to DI-20s S/PDIF input.  And it works perfectly.  Not sure I hear a huge sonic benefit with the SU-6 in the middle but sounds great otherwise.  Removes some grain and big bass but USB direct is more dynamic.  If you have a CD player or older device this input makes more sense versus directly connecting to the DAC.


----------



## newabc

May I have a question about the coaxial SPDIF cables? I saw someone in head-fi forum said about RCA cables,  the silver-plated copper cables are more bright but less natural/musical than the OCC copper. Is it right? Can this impression be applied to the coaxial SPDIF cable which only transfer digital data?


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> May I have a question about the coaxial SPDIF cables? I saw someone in head-fi forum said about RCA cables,  the silver-plated copper cables are more bright but less natural/musical than the OCC copper. Is it right? Can this impression be applied to the coaxial SPDIF cable which only transfer digital data?


Silver-plated are like you describe for analog. Digital is another story. Silver-plating can favor good digital transmission.. The ultimate for digital is a silver cable.


----------



## newabc

FredA said:


> Silver-plated are like you describe for analog. Digital is another story. Silver-plating can favor good digital transmission.. The ultimate for digital is a silver cable.


Thanks for your reply!

Silver-plated OCC SPDIF BNC-BNC cables are rare and expensive. I can see they are over $100 usually.
Some vendors like Audio-gd or Ghent Audio don't have silver-plated BNC-BNC coaxial cable(They use Canare or Belden cables). Even Ghent Audio already has silver-plated RCA interconnect cables and USB cables.

Terminating is another problem. Ghent Audio has some called "True 75ohm" coaxial cables made by same Canare or Belden cables. I think these cables can be less than 1.5meter without reflecting issues. I had an Ghent Audio's BNC-RCA 0.5m cable to connect the source and DAC for a while before I got DI-20. No ghost sound found at that time.


----------



## ToddRaymond (Dec 13, 2019)

I totally agree with where Fred is coming from.  Mind you, I've also had 6N and 7N OCC silver interconnects that I enjoyed (from Acoustic Zen and Neotech respectively) that were still surprisingly musical enough and natural sounding. I currently have all OCC silver wiring in the digital transmission in my system (including from the I2S in to the DAC board), but all OCC copper in all areas of analogue transmission.  I really like this combination.  Clean and clear, yet sufficiently organic sounding.  Oh, and _some _of the strands in the Neotech NEP-3003 power cable for my DAC are silver-plated.


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> Thanks for your reply!
> 
> Silver-plated OCC SPDIF BNC-BNC cables are rare and expensive. I can see they are over $100 usually.
> Some vendors like Audio-gd or Ghent Audio don't have silver-plated BNC-BNC coaxial cable(They use Canare or Belden cables). Even Ghent Audio already has silver-plated RCA interconnect cables and USB cables.
> ...


You can get a 0.7 Oyaide bnc-bnc silver cable for 115 usd on ebay. I just received a 1.0m. Can't make any statement on it yet other than build quality is top notch.


----------



## jimmychan (Dec 14, 2019)

DACLadder said:


> @jimmychan  Never thought of that but great experiment.  Are you externally clocking both the cascaded DIs?
> 
> I connected the SU-6 S/PDIF out to DI-20s S/PDIF input.  And it works perfectly.  Not sure I hear a huge sonic benefit with the SU-6 in the middle but sounds great otherwise.  Removes some grain and big bass but USB direct is more dynamic.  If you have a CD player or older device this input makes more sense versus directly connecting to the DAC.


@DACLadder The whole experiment was done with the Internal Clock and P mode.


----------



## newabc (Dec 17, 2019)

In aliexpress, there are some vendors using MPS M-880(6N OCC, silver-plated), Gotham 10070 GAC-1(LC-OFC and silver-coated) or CinemaQuest HD6-A(6N OFC, silver-plated). But only the Gotham one has BNC-BNC. Due to current positions of DI-20 and my DAC, I have to consider a 1.5m BNC-BNC cable. But I can use a 0.3-0.5m RCA-RCA cable to connect the source and DI-20 if it is terminated well as 75ohm. BTW, Oyaide is an excellent brand.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Can this clock be used with the DI20-HE or the R-7HE?? I saw it on eBay.

GPS Disciplined Clock GPSDO 1PPS 10MHZ Square/SIne Wave RS232 + Antenna Adapter

Please recommend an external clock if this is not good......


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> Can this clock be used with the DI20-HE or the R-7HE?? I saw it on eBay.
> 
> GPS Disciplined Clock GPSDO 1PPS 10MHZ Square/SIne Wave RS232 + Antenna Adapter
> 
> Please recommend an external clock if this is not good......



I don't know what exact XO is inside that one. It may be a CTC. The most important with the choice of external XO's are the low phase noise, stability. I have good experience with Oscilloquatz. (A double oven 12V XO) The power supply to feed it is also a key. Pick a Ultra low noise Linear Power supply. Alot of good recommendations here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gus...ing-ess-usb-chip.888947/page-82#post-15119107


----------



## rsbrsvp

I ask for headfiers to give me a few lessons in external clocks please.

I see this is a highly recommended clock:

10 MHz Double Oven OCXO Double sinewave OSCILLOQUARTZ 8663-XS 10MHZ

Besides a 12v linear power supply- do I need one bnc cable or two?  I assume one connects to the DI-20HE or R7-HE..  If there is a need for a seconf=d BNC cable I have not idea where it connects to.

Would it be better to connect it to the DI-20HE or the R7-HE or to both?

Also- is this clock superior to the SOTM USBtx Ultra?


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I ask for headfiers to give me a few lessons in external clocks please.
> 
> I see this is a highly recommended clock:
> 
> ...


If you own the latest r7 or r7-he, you can use the external on just one of the two or both the DI-20 and the r7. Using it on both should give the best sound quality. So yes, two cables then. If you have a r7 that is more than 2-3 month old, you don't have the clock input.

I have no info or experience with sotm clock.


----------



## rsbrsvp

The cable should be 50 OHM BNC terminated--- any length?

Please recommend...


----------



## FredA (Dec 15, 2019)

rsbrsvp said:


> The cable should be 50 OHM BNC terminated--- any length?
> 
> Please recommend...


I got a rg400 in 1m (could not find shorter).  Works well. I also have some rg58s,  one of which is of suspect build quality. Rg400 has superior specs.


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/BNC-Male-to-BNC-Male-RG400-Cable-3-feet-for-Vector-Network-Analyzer-VNA-Tester/254321046918?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## FredA

Just found and bought this:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/BNC-Male-to...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## DACLadder

@jimmychan  Did you get your DI20HEs to work OK with Gustard's 10M clock source?  You mentioned that you had trouble a long time ago with the first HE.  Thanks!


----------



## rsbrsvp

Can one OXCO clock be used to clock both the DI-20HE and the R-7HE?

What type of termination is needed for the power input?   Is it a  a 5.5mm standard barrel?

If I could have one clock and one LPS to power both clocks that would save a lot of money.....


----------



## FredA (Dec 15, 2019)

rsbrsvp said:


> Can one OXCO clock be used to clock both the DI-20HE and the R-7HE?
> 
> What type of termination is needed for the power input?   Is it a  a 5.5mm standard barrel?
> 
> If I could have one clock and one LPS to power both clocks that would save a lot of money.....


My unit has 2 sine outputs, plus one square one so it can feed 2-3 gears. It needs a 5.5/2.1 connector. I prefer the sine over the square out with it.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/10MHz-OCXO-...ave/173448116014?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

You are good with a 12v/2a psu. I recommend to use with an ultra-low noise output. I use this one:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/25W-TALEMA-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

With a ghentautio silver-plated dc cable (5.5/2.1 to 5.5/2.1)


----------



## DACLadder

I need to get my 10M clock oscillator working. It is tough finding a clock source that fit all my requirements.  I’m still looking around.

The Oscilloquartz OCXO board is good.  Has two 50 ohm sinewave buffered outputs and does -120dBr/Hz @ 10Hz on phase noise which is commendable. Only tricky thing with it is the minimum input voltage requirement of about +12.5V.  A regular +12V supply doesn’t work. And +15V may be too much.  So finding a good power supply for it has been an issue.

i believe Kingwa specs sine wave 10M clocks for his inputs.  Many Ebay products have square wave outputs so check before ordering.


----------



## newabc (Dec 15, 2019)

I tried a 1 meter OCC(not silver plated) cable(made by MPS X-7 and MPS RCA plugs) between the source and DI-20. It is the shortest length of this model. Comparing to Audio-gd's Canare L-5CFB plus Canare RCA plugs, 1.5 meters, maybe because it hasn't been burned in, it is lacking some background details than Canare one. These background details have appeared with Canare one since the DI-20 got 10 days burn-in. Maybe the core of MPS X-7 is too thin(Canare one has a solid core), or the MPS plugs are not standard 75ohm or the termination is bad.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I see on Ebay there are some clocks with GPS.  What in the world does that mean?  They claim 2X more accuracy than standard oxco clocks?

They do not cost to much more?  Are they worth it if they have sinewave output?  Are they more complex to operate?


----------



## frizzup (Dec 15, 2019)

Hi Dacladder,
This is one of the LPSU's that is use in my Audio setup. It's a 200W HDPlex and as you can see it has the ability to dial-in variable outputs for A and B. I use this for JCAT USB and Ext 10M clocks. It comes with the output cables. Also have 2 x 100W HDPlex one for each CPC and APC.


----------



## JaMo

The GPSDO (GPS Diciplined Controlled XO') corrects the frequency  to 10MHz with reference to the atomic, very stable clocks in the GPS system. It still has to be a low phase noise XO inside the box. You can achieve a very good result also with a Ultra Low noise power source for the XO. The XO reacts instantly on voltage changes so a very stable Ultra Low Noise Linear Power Supply (LPS).


----------



## Wynnytsky

frizzup said:


> Hi Dacladder,
> This is one of the LPSU's that is use in my Audio setup. It's a 200W HDPlex and as you can see it has the ability to dial-in variable outputs for A and B. I use this for JCAT USB and Ext 10M clocks. It comes with the output cables. Also have 2 x 100W HDPlex one for each CPC and APC.



FYI that 200watt unit is Larry's 3rd generation that is the only one you should keep (sell anything older than that)
The adjustable taps are 2amps each and the fixed taps are 10amps each.
The adjustable taps are special because only they have the LT3045 which makes the jitter 0.2mv (the fixed taps are 10-15x higher)
Larry said to deliver 2amps he needed to use four LT3045 in each one.

When powering a 19v computer I didn't hear a difference between the above HDPlex and my friend's Keces, but when powering a W4S Recovery the Keces was very different.  Way smooth and relaxed -- substantial enough to change my choice of cabling.  While nothing matches the brute power and flexibility of the HDplex, if you can live with 2 fixed taps then I would go with the Keces.


----------



## Tango Sierra

Does the DI-20 ACSS BNC output work when connected to a BNC input on a non-Audio-gd DAC? If it does work, will the audio quality be better than using an RCA S/PDIF cable with the non-Audio-gd DAC?


----------



## FredA

Tango Sierra said:


> Does the DI-20 ACSS BNC output work when connected to a BNC input on a non-Audio-gd DAC? If it does work, will the audio quality be better than using an RCA S/PDIF cable with the non-Audio-gd DAC?


It is stated in the di20's manual that as long as the sensitivity is as needed and the input is 75 ohms, it will works better than the same cable using a voltage output. The needed sensitivity is 0.5VPP, which is the standard value, i presume.


----------



## DACLadder

Kingwa says his external clock inputs will work with sine or square wave oscillators. The range of signal amplitude is.0.3Vpp to 3Vpp.  Pick which sounds best to you.


----------



## DACLadder

@frizzup The HDPlex 200W power supply looks great but looks to be end of life.  Soon to be replaced with a 300W version according to a vendor.  The 200W models are sold out on HDPlex web site.  Anyway looks good if I could find a nice used one!


----------



## Wynnytsky

@DACLadder Do you have any links on that 300w LPS?  I think it's better to score an LPS on jitter instead of amperage.  When the DI20HE arrives I'm moving my 200w hdplex off the shelf (to the floor) to keep it's large EMF at a distance from my source gear.

if you do find one used, make sure the voltage dials are switched and not variable.  Unfortunately the new units won't let you dial in a custom voltage like 12.5 .. 13.5 but those variable dials are only on the old versions which never got the low jitter transistors (and the variable dials would burn out which happened to my friend).


----------



## rsbrsvp

Help:

is a GPSDO clock going to give better results than a double oven OXCO?  I know in theory it is more accurate but can the human ear hear the difference in a audiophile application?

I keep my stereo in a cabinet and It may be difficult to get gps signal..

Advice please....


----------



## motberg

If I remember correctly, the GPS disciplined clock was mentioned first at the Gustard U16 thread, and was a recommendation based upon some Taiwan audiophile group. My guess is the Taiwan folks doing the initial recommendation have access to all types of economy clock options, but I have never seen this information source personally.

The device has an antenna with 5 M lead, you stick it out a window and hope a secure GPS lock. I use a 10 meter length antenna lead and it works fine.
I like the idea the device requires a 12v input (Some of the others require over 12.5v so not a standard value..) anyways, at 12v you have easy options for cheapish 2A LT3045 regulation... 

There are many other 10M clock options without antenna... some are very expensive...   Google Mutec for example...


----------



## DACLadder

@Wynnytsky  Read the description on this page for HDPlex 200W obsolescence.  What I think I really need is a used 100W version but that is long out of production.
https://audiopc.shop/en/winkel/power/hdplex-200w-lpsu-linear-power-supply-preorder-latest-version/


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> @Wynnytsky  Read the description on this page for HDPlex 200W obsolescence.  What I think I really need is a used 100W version but that is long out of production.
> https://audiopc.shop/en/winkel/power/hdplex-200w-lpsu-linear-power-supply-preorder-latest-version/



I think my tiny audio computer would be happy with 3amps from a 19.5v tap.  My ideal LPS would only have two low jitter taps and the thing would only be 80 or 100watts (cheaper and lower EMF).  The one that goes up to 19.5v would have six LT3035 regulators and a second one could max out at 9 or 12 with four or six regulators.


----------



## DACLadder

External 10M clocking sounds really good. Highly recommended!  

Ordered a power supply off of Ebay where the vendor states they will adjust output voltage power to anything within it's range. I picked +12.5V output.

Finally mounted the Oscilloquartz board on 1/4" aluminum plate to give it some stability with cables connected. And using my Off Ramp 5 Dynamo power supply that adjusts to +12.13V max.  Seems to function OK but may not be optimal.


----------



## PLGA

DACLadder said:


> External 10M clocking sounds really good. Highly recommended!
> 
> Ordered a power supply off of Ebay where the vendor states they will adjust output voltage power to anything within it's range. I picked +12.5V output.
> 
> Finally mounted the Oscilloquartz board on 1/4" aluminum plate to give it some stability with cables connected. And using my Off Ramp 5 Dynamo power supply that adjusts to +12.13V max.  Seems to function OK but may not be optimal.



Hello Scott,
I'm sorry, but I´ve got confused with so many tech info.

I bought the same clock as you posted on the photo. I'm using it with a 12V / 3A LPS and the result, regarding sound improvement is good, not night and day difference, but nice, delivering more liquid and analog sound on my system.

Is a plain 12V LPS ok for it?    Why should it be 12.5V if it says 12V on the outside specs?


----------



## DACLadder

@PLGA  The Oscilloquartz OCXO vender claims 13V to 15V input voltage is needed.  The voltage input connects to a linear Vreg with its 12V output powering the 12V OCXO.  For the regulator to regulate the voltage needs to be above its dropout voltage which is 250mV nominally at 1.5A output.  So voltage input needs to be above 12V coming in.  How much is to be determined.  You don’t want to go too high either as that extra power is dissipated by the 12V regulator.  I picked 12.5V to give me some margin above the dropout voltage for all operating conditions like pulling 8W when the OCXO heater is working fully.  +13V would probably be OK as well.

That is the Oscilloquartz design.  Other boards may have different requirements.


----------



## PLGA

DACLadder said:


> @PLGA  The Oscilloquartz OCXO vender claims 13V to 15V input voltage is needed.  The voltage input connects to a linear Vreg with its 12V output powering the 12V OCXO.  For the regulator to regulate the voltage needs to be above its dropout voltage which is 250mV nominally at 1.5A output.  So voltage input needs to be above 12V coming in.  How much is to be determined.  You don’t want to go too high either as that extra power is dissipated by the 12V regulator.  I picked 12.5V to give me some margin above the dropout voltage for all operating conditions like pulling 8W when the OCXO heater is working fully.  +13V would probably be OK as well.
> 
> That is the Oscilloquartz design.  Other boards may have different requirements.



Ok, but what if you feed it with a 12V LPS like I've been doing for about a couple of months?  Is there any risk?  What could happen?

It seems to me that it works fine and improves the sound of my U16, but how can I be sure that it wont be a risk or a compromise in a near future?


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 16, 2019)

@PLGA. If the input voltage gets low enough the regulator “drops out” and stops regulating its output.  I like the idea of the voltage regulator for the oscillator as it provides isolation from the main power supply.  So I want to operate it where it is linear and predictable for best performance.  In my case 12.13V is iffy at best. But if its working OK for you then don’t worry about.

The Oscilloquartz board just makes picking a power supply more challenging.  Hard to find 12.5V, 12.8V, or 13V power supplies


----------



## soundlogic

So...My DI-20 HE arrived today...plugged her in, replacing myGustard U16, of which I have mentioned, has work flawlessly for me since its purchase ( SW ver. 1.4 psa).
Hooked up the Gustard C16 clock as well...
I have read so many glowing reviews on the DI-20...cold, out of the box, compared to U16, but my reaction is just the opposite! The DI-20 sounds like there’s is a blanket over my speakers, the sound being closed in, and dull, compared to the well broken in and warmed up U16/C16 combo. Now I understand that the Audio-GD gear take an awfully long time to break-in...a month or more? Of straight playing? Well, unless things change, I will not be enjoying my rig for awhile, based on the sound coming from it as of now.  Is there anyone here using the DI-20 with a PS Audio Directstream DAC that can recommend the proper HDMI configuration settings? I have music playing, but I am unsure that my settings are optimal. 
Thanks in advance, for the comments


----------



## newabc

It seems the DI-20HE needs more time to burn in than the regular DI-20 due to the discussions in this thread. My DI-20 needed 7-10 days to reach a totally difference comparing to that without it.


----------



## FredA (Dec 16, 2019)

soundlogic said:


> So...My DI-20 HE arrived today...plugged her in, replacing myGustard U16, of which I have mentioned, has work flawlessly for me since its purchase ( SW ver. 1.4 psa).
> Hooked up the Gustard C16 clock as well...
> I have read so many glowing reviews on the DI-20...cold, out of the box, compared to U16, but my reaction is just the opposite! The DI-20 sounds like there’s is a blanket over my speakers, the sound being closed in, and dull, compared to the well broken in and warmed up U16/C16 combo. Now I understand that the Audio-GD gear take an awfully long time to break-in...a month or more? Of straight playing? Well, unless things change, I will not be enjoying my rig for awhile, based on the sound coming from it as of now.  Is there anyone here using the DI-20 with a PS Audio Directstream DAC that can recommend the proper HDMI configuration settings? I have music playing, but I am unsure that my settings are optimal.
> Thanks in advance, for the comments


Give it 5-6 hours, it should be already nice. The settings are the same as audio-gd, so the default. Of course, select the external clock using the middle button.


----------



## DACLadder

A flawless operating U16 is hard to beat. Too bad it doesn’t work for everyone.


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> A flawless operating U16 is hard to beat. Too bad it doesn’t work for everyone.


My di certainly beats the u16 now.


----------



## soundlogic

FredA...in all due respect, according to your posts, your DI-20 beat your U16 cold out of the box, which is one of my references to my original post


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> FredA...in all due respect, according to your posts, your DI-20 beat your U16 cold out of the box, which is one of my references to my original post


Not exactly true. I ran it for 6 hours before i gave it a first listen. Sorry if one of my post lead you to think otherwise. Received the unit at 9h30am,  got it running at 10am, then went back to work.  I gave it a first listen at around 4pm.


----------



## FredA

Before a week, you will have a good idea of what it can do, but not a complete one. As i stated, the u16 is like a toy in comparison and this you will know soon enough.


----------



## PLGA

I expect to receive my DI-20 (non HE) this week.

Considering I've done many changes on my system in the last few weeks (firmwares in the R8 and U16, power cords, OCXO for the U16, etc) and that its hard to compare by memory, better an A/B  test, I plan to burn the DI-20 at least after 24 hs before comparing side by side. 

To do so, I have to keep the U16 connected during the DI-20 first burning hours and I thought about connecting the DI-20 to my R8 by standard SPDIF while burning. Can I use any standard RCA cable or should I consider any specs like impedance, etc?  

I wont be listening while burning, so I dont care about sound quality. Its just not to disconnect the U16 meanwhile.


----------



## DACLadder

Beats the stock Singxer SU-6 cold from the shipping box. I said and still true. 

And still trying figure what works best. It is a little smoky and mysterious but really nice vocals.  And good bass and dynamics with the R7.  Lower grain.  Very interesting first week and no regrets.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Does the Di-20HE with external clock beat the fully upgrade SU-6 with it's upgraded clock?


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> I expect to receive my DI-20 (non HE) this week.
> 
> Considering I've done many changes on my system in the last few weeks (firmwares in the R8 and U16, power cords, OCXO for the U16, etc) and that its hard to compare by memory, better an A/B  test, I plan to burn the DI-20 at least after 24 hs before comparing side by side.
> 
> ...


You need a 75ohm digital rca cable. Otherwise, it could still work but with degraded performance. Use the hdmi output, you will get better results. Don't forget to turn off both units before doing the hdmi connection.


----------



## JaMo (Dec 17, 2019)

rsbrsvp said:


> Does the Di-20HE with external clock beat the fully upgrade SU-6 with it's upgraded clock?



It is not possible to answer yet. Nobody has a fully burned in unit at this time. In about a month it is doable to compare...if somebody have both and a really good ext XO in hand.
/Jan


----------



## motberg

Almost every DDC I have had so far needed 3 days just to stabilize, the more advanced of these DDC's gave an honest impression of the future SQ after about a week and a half.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Can someone recommend a HDMI cable for DI-20HE to R-7HE.

Is shorter better?


----------



## FredA

I use a 0.5 hdmi 2.0b Moshou at the moment with great results.


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> Can someone recommend a HDMI cable for DI-20HE to R-7HE.
> 
> Is shorter better?



I'm using this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...chweb0_0,searchweb201602_4,searchweb201603_53  Having two of them


----------



## FredA

The internal are blossoming now so the ocxo having issues is not a show stopper.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I was bored so I looked for this address http://www.audio-gd.com/Contact-EN.htm
and I think it's this https://goo.gl/maps/WLxKkzyvE2wFamBo7
(The satellite view and street views are off by almost a half mile)

What's really weird is I checked a couple US search engines and couldn't find a single photo for a Mr. He Qinghua
Maybe he's a Santa for adults -- this fictitious character with a warehouse full of elves working round the clock to deliver DACs to the whole world.


----------



## FredA

You can see Kingwa in this article. Enjoy!

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/magnepan2/4.html


----------



## DACLadder

@Wynnytsky  You seem bored all right.  Were going to have to get you some new equipment to keep you busy.  Thanks Fred...

He Qinghua


----------



## PLGA

Our idol!!

Thank you Kingwa for delivering such a good hifi gear at affordable price!!


----------



## Wynnytsky

That was 5 years ago.  By now he's fat and jolly with a full white beard.

It's use-them-or-lose them December and all I've got to preoccupy me are these QRD panels (2 more coming today)
Also listening to a lampi antlantic.  2 days ago a PSAudio Direct Stream visited to be compared to the atlantic.  For that reason we only gave the psaudio the spdif and both the psaudio and lampi sat on dining room chairs.

I found the comparison between my r2r7 and the psaudio more interesting because they had similar gravitas on the XLR outs.  With the r2r7 having a clear home court advantage (i2s, brass footers into maple, better cords) the r2r7 delivered a bit more slam, "light", and an analog feel.  Also the r2r7 had a rawness that is more engaging and critical of the stuff it's connected to.  Compared to other dacs you might say the r2r7 _overreacts_ to upstream changes, and that's what I want in this hobby.

The lampi was very different.  It's brought a speed+density than nails the human voice and reveals texture in places you thought were just smooth (with a very fancy power cord and good RCAs).  It also has a spooky low noise floor that delivered natural dynamics even without the XLR gravitas.  My preamp is passive so higher voltage sources tend to work better for me, yet I didn't hear any penalty to cranking the volume louder on the lampi to close the XLR/RCA gap.

I look forward to repeating the r2r7 vs lampi next year with a broken in di20he and my electrical service replaced, which I hope will be a bigger improvement than my lovely Niagara 1200.


----------



## FredA

Just FIY, the internal clocks only start perfoming like they should after 150 hours or so. Using an external clock, you will get a taste of what it can do much sooner.


----------



## soundlogic

Wynnytsky said:


> That was 5 years ago.  By now he's fat and jolly with a full white beard.
> 
> It's use-them-or-lose them December and all I've got to preoccupy me are these QRD panels (2 more coming today)
> Also listening to a lampi antlantic.  2 days ago a PSAudio Direct Stream visited to be compared to the atlantic.  For that reason we only gave the psaudio the spdif and both the psaudio and lampi sat on dining room chairs.
> ...



Regarding the PSA Directstream...Not sure if the unit you are auditioning is brand new, but the DSD is another example of "VERY-LONG-BREAK-IN" = 600-700 hours.


----------



## Wynnytsky

soundlogic said:


> Regarding the PSA Directstream...Not sure if the unit you are auditioning is brand new, but the DSD is another example of "VERY-LONG-BREAK-IN" = 600-700 hours.



We're told not to pull i2s connections w/o powering things off.  It's a pity the DI20HE doesn't have a second i2s output like the SU6.  I paid extra to have a pink faun made with two outputs for this very reason -- comparing DACs should be as easy as switching inputs on your preamp.  This PSA was last over around early 2018 and I remember it edging out the r2r7.  Today both units are on the latest firmware so I'm guessing it fared better before because I took the time to move the i2s connection back and forth.

BTW I only play up to pcm192

BTW I think these ferrites improved things for my SU1





Doesn't that little board look like a joke compared to what's in the DI20?


----------



## newabc (Dec 17, 2019)

Wynnytsky said:


> Doesn't that little board look like a joke compared to what's in the DI20?



These days I am looking at the amp sales/trade forum of head-fi. I totally agree with you and think this can also apply to the comparation of Audio-gd's amps and a lot of so call "audiophile" solid-state amps made by other companies with similar price tags.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> We're told not to pull i2s connections w/o powering things off.  It's a pity the DI20HE doesn't have a second i2s output like the SU6.  I paid extra to have a pink faun made with two outputs for this very reason -- comparing DACs should be as easy as switching inputs on your preamp.  This PSA was last over around early 2018 and I remember it edging out the r2r7.  Today both units are on the latest firmware so I'm guessing it fared better before because I took the time to move the i2s connection back and forth.
> 
> BTW I only play up to pcm192
> 
> ...


The di20 has much more reservoir caps and regulation, and look quite a lot more high-end.


----------



## Clemmaster

Wynnytsky said:


> We're told not to pull i2s connections w/o powering things off.  It's a pity the DI20HE doesn't have a second i2s output like the SU6.  I paid extra to have a pink faun made with two outputs for this very reason -- comparing DACs should be as easy as switching inputs on your preamp.  This PSA was last over around early 2018 and I remember it edging out the r2r7.  Today both units are on the latest firmware so I'm guessing it fared better before because I took the time to move the i2s connection back and forth.
> 
> BTW I only play up to pcm192
> 
> ...


It looks like proper engineering.
Audio-gd looks DIY by comparison.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Clemmaster said:


> It looks like proper engineering.
> Audio-gd looks DIY by comparison.



I'll say the SU1+HDPlex sounds good enough to keep me from opening the xmas boxes piled up in my entry way
Instead of hanging lights and garlands I'm decorating the wall with not so much as a 3M command strip
If the vacuum cleaner bumps a 2d QRD then it'll be my own personal 911

For the bass traps I didn't have enough new toilet paper rolls, but I did have 3 new rolls of paper towels, and that's working ok.
The square diffusers stretched the image too high -- adding absorption on the very top pushed it all the way back down to the tweeter.


----------



## FredA (Dec 17, 2019)

Clemmaster said:


> It looks like proper engineering.
> Audio-gd looks DIY by comparison.


Yep. Engineered for max. profit. Who cares if it is beaten by the very cheap u16, which the di-20 in turn mops the floor with. DIYers just care about sound, not much about costs. To each his own preferences.

 Kingwa will have sold over a hundred if not double this figure at the end of the year, the su-1 is already a museum piece, a cheaply, but well engineered one.

Lets face it, the di shares the same overall design, only Kingwa perfected it in just a few months, benching it against a state-of-the-art CD transport, while designing a phono stage and redesigning SPDIF in his spare time, and even finding the time to release a few other new products. Some people have genuine talent, and are blessed with superior learning and creating capacities, let's face it. But Kingwa really does not prioritize profits. Some like this trait, some don't. Can't make unanimity.


----------



## jimmychan

DACLadder said:


> @jimmychan  Did you get your DI20HEs to work OK with Gustard's 10M clock source?  You mentioned that you had trouble a long time ago with the first HE.  Thanks!


@DACLadder Both my two DI20HE do not work on P mode with Ext. Gustard's 10MHz clock. It works fine however on S mode. Later I will test it with R7's i2s input.


----------



## JaMo

I gave my DI20HE a good listening session yesterday evening. I listened in my rig. (Linux-DI-R7-M1-M3,M2's-Quad ESL63/Gradient SW63). I have mostly been using Ext XO (Oscilloquartz 8663) and did this also this time. I will compare the internal Accusilicon's later.

At ~545h. Super resolving without any pushy feeling. Soft and pleasant, embracing and sparkling at the same time. Fluid and powerful. It's excellence in the full register. It is like being out at night in the far north of Sweden when the earth is lighted out and all the stars shines very clear from the black background (space). It is breathtaking really. This thing is hard to beat.
/Jan


----------



## motberg

Clemmaster said:


> It looks like proper engineering.
> Audio-gd looks DIY by comparison.


the photo appears to be actually a DIY SU-1
which, BTW was pretty much required to keep the thing from sounding awful... 
maybe the SU-1 was an example of something properly engineered using input from an AP only... not sure...


----------



## FredA

motberg said:


> the photo appears to be actually a DIY SU-1
> which, BTW was pretty much required to keep the thing from sounding awful...
> maybe the SU-1 was an example of something properly engineered using input from an AP only... not sure...


You are right, most people modded it, removing the first stage psu to feed it with an external dc source.

  But still, i think we should concede the Singxer f1 was a great value. The su1 was apparently not much of an upgrade over it, while costing much more. Now, the di-20 is most likely the new king in this price range.


----------



## FredA

jimmychan said:


> @DACLadder Both my two DI20HE do not work on P mode with Ext. Gustard's 10MHz clock. It works fine however on S mode. Later I will test it with R7's i2s input.


Thanks for the tip. The di seems more picky with ext. XOs using the p. mode. I had a glitch in P mode occuring once every 2-3 minute. None in S mode so far, with still excellent sound quality. Something for Kingwa to investigate. At this stage of burn in, i still prefer the external clock.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

Since yesterday evening, I started my burn in process for my DI-20HE / R7HE combo. First impressions, totally new and cold: astonishing.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto




----------



## UsoppNoKami

FredA said:


> Thanks for the tip. The di seems more picky with ext. XOs using the p. mode. I had a glitch in P mode occuring once every 2-3 minute. None in S mode so far, with still excellent sound quality. Something for Kingwa to investigate. At this stage of burn in, i still prefer the external clock.



My old OXCO for U16 only outputs 250mV p-p, so it causes the DI-20HE to show a FAIL status when hooking up the ext clock and pressing the button.  As shown on the user manual page, clock needs to be within this spec : 300mV P-P to 3V P-P at 50 Ohm.  

I missed this bit and asked Kingwa about my issue, he figured out it is due to the low output from my OXCO unit.  Luckily it was a cheap one that was bought for fun back then  

I've had the DI-20HE for about 2 weeks now, it's probably done about 200 hours as I've not had it running 24/7.  Sound and reliability wise, very good so far with IIS HDMI to R7HE, well pleased with the investment.  

SU-6 has not been plugged back in at any time, i am confident the DI-20HE sounds more musical and impactful.  

On the other hand, I am tempted to do a video showing the U16 going to the electronics recycler for disposal ... or maybe a bonfire... lol


----------



## FredA

UsoppNoKami said:


> My old OXCO for U16 only outputs 250mV p-p, so it causes the DI-20HE to show a FAIL status when hooking up the ext clock and pressing the button.  As shown on the user manual page, clock needs to be within this spec : 300mV P-P to 3V P-P at 50 Ohm.
> 
> I missed this bit and asked Kingwa about my issue, he figured out it is due to the low output from my OXCO unit.  Luckily it was a cheap one that was bought for fun back then
> 
> ...


To bad burning electronics releases toxic smoke. My OCXO's signal is a little high perhaps, could be a little over 3VPP. I have ordered an attenuator.


----------



## jimmychan

My two U16 found their new owners and no need for bonfire.


----------



## PLGA

I will get my DI-20 (non HE) today!  We'll see if its up to task!  So many rave opinions that I'm afraid I have too high expectations.

To be fair, the U16 costs new almost half the price of the DI-20 and it could be much less if you get a used one and, if it works in your set up and sample rates, it's a real bargain and an true hifi option for those who dont have the budget for a DI-20.


----------



## newabc (Dec 18, 2019)

I did a research on the base cables of the SPDIF coaxial cables recently. I found that the OCC and OFC cables with or without silver plated, most of their center conductors are stranded, not solid.

Only AudioQuest's HD6 series and DH Labs' D-750 series have solid cores. But the prices are so high, then I think Oyaide's DR-510 and DB-510 series which have solid silver cores are much better. By the way, they are based on Oyaide's FTVS-408 or FTVS-510. But I haven't found any cable store making 75ohm cables with FTVS-408 or FTVS-510 with a price lower than DR-510/DB-510. (Someone is selling FTVS-408 for $27.05/meter on global.rakuten.com.)


----------



## PLGA

Hello guys 
On AGD website, on DI-20 manual it says:

*"" The 2nd display element :*
        "C" (Clock) means the Clk OUT on the backplate outputs a 256fs main clock , "L" (LRCK/WCLK) means the output is the word clock ."" 

What does it mean?  Wich setting on that feature do you prefer and why?  

Im burning mine. I will post my impressions ASAP.


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Hello guys
> On AGD website, on DI-20 manual it says:
> 
> *"" The 2nd display element :*
> ...


This setting determines what the clock output will be, it has no influence on sound itself. Get it?


----------



## newabc

By comparing the SPDIF cables built by MPS X-7(with MPS plugs) and Canare L-5CFB(with Canare plugs), I think 75ohm and a solid conductor core are more important than the materiel of OCC/OFC and whether it is silver-plated or not in digital signal transmission of a coaxial cable. And of cause, lower gauge is better. (L-5CFB is 18awg.)

I think there will be somebody who want to try a affordable, solid and low wire gauge conductor core and true 75ohm video cable on the SPDIF acss output. Belden has silver-plated 14awg 4731R and 4731P, and 16awg 4794R. They are not OCC or OFC, just low gauge and silver-plated solid copper. And they are designed to transfer 4K and 8K video signal(based on Belden's flyer).


----------



## frizzup

Hi Freda,

What external clock are you using with the DI-20, Make, Model, please?

Does your DI-20 have the 45 or 90 clock from Audio-GD?

How does that improve over the internal DI-20 clock?
Frizzup


----------



## FredA (Dec 19, 2019)

frizzup said:


> Hi Freda,
> 
> What external clock are you using with the DI-20, Make, Model, please?
> 
> ...


 I have this unit:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/10MHz-OCXO-...ave/173448116014?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

The output is likely a bit too high in sine mode, it is rated as 12 to 14dbm. 14dbm is a little over 3VPP. I have been having popping noises with it lately in parallel mode only. The serial is pop-free but does not sound as good.

The internal clock are not burned in yet, and from what i hear, the gap is closing between the two. The external initially sounded significantly better, especially with bass. And also the sound had overall more depth. Last night, my unit was having a regression night, which is common during burn-in, but then i realized that the serial mode perhaps did not sound as well. So i switched to parallel, and selected the internal and liked the sound quite a bit more with this combination. With parallel and external clock, i think the sound is just a little bit better and the glitches becames less frequent. So i cross my finger and hope they diappear soon. I ordered a 5dB attenuator to reduce the output level.


----------



## Jackula

FredA said:


> I have this unit:
> 
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/10MHz-OCXO-...ave/173448116014?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144



How does this unit compare to the other "open air" unit you posted a weeks (months?) ago?


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> How does this unit compare to the other "open air" unit you posted a weeks (months?) ago?


I only own this one,  might get another one soon. By the way, after burning my 1m Oyaide bnc spdif for 140h, all i can say is wow! This may well be my favorite connection now. Awesome treble, and imaging, lively and dynamic sound.


----------



## FredA (Dec 19, 2019)

Also, Jack, the output of the unit i posted above is a little high so an attenuator has to be used to avoid saturating the clock input, which causes glitches. I don't have one yet to confirm it fixes the issue.

So far the best sound is p mode, external clock (between glitches) and oyaide bnc spdif connection. Really awesome!


----------



## FredA

With spdif, the difference between external and internal has become very subtle. To be continued.


----------



## JaMo

Almost 600 hours now (~590), and at this state I think the DI20HE is representative for a honest review. 

This device breathes and acts all high end now. I have never before had this outstanding performance. Still running Parallell DoP firmware in the R7 (I2S/HDMI). The TDA.dac is fed with a DH-Labs AES/EBU cable. I have a true feeling of "end game" with this now. Kingwa will probably ruin that feeling sooner than later. I can live with that. 

Alot of all You guys and girls burning in Your DI's will have a nice Christmas gift to really enjoy..
/Jan


----------



## UsoppNoKami

Folks,be sure to give the internal acusilicons proper running time to burn in, however long that may take...

i've had a very interesting chat with Kingwa re. int and ext clocks on the DI-20HE, and I believe the internal clocks will be competitive in SQ when fully run in.  I've decided not to pursue the ext clocks anymore after the discussion


newabc said:


> By comparing the SPDIF cables built by MPS X-7(with MPS plugs) and Canare L-5CFB(with Canare plugs), I think 75ohm and a solid conductor core are more important than the materiel of OCC/OFC and whether it is silver-plated or not in digital signal transmission of a coaxial cable. And of cause, lower gauge is better. (L-5CFB is 18awg.)
> 
> I think there will be somebody who want to try a affordable, solid and low wire gauge conductor core and true 75ohm video cable on the SPDIF acss output. Belden has silver-plated 14awg 4731R and 4731P, and 16awg 4794R. They are not OCC or OFC, just low gauge and silver-plated solid copper. And they are designed to transfer 4K and 8K video signal(based on Belden's flyer).



4794R cable has arrived for testing


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 20, 2019)

External clocks are a safe bet initially with a new DI.  I switched back to internal yesterday and actually have better bass, dynamics, and highs running internal.  So will give those try for a while... until better OCXO power supply received at least.

After 10 days external clock is still a little dark and mysterious. Internal is what I started with initially and made all the comments comparing the SU-6.  From experience the Accusilicon XOs take a while to run in.  So must be patient and keep power applied to the DI. .


----------



## PLGA

Hello guys
I've got my DI-20 (non HE) and, after 24 hs of burning, I tried it against the U16.

Its fair to mention that with so many changes in the last weeks (R8 firmware last weekend for instance), its hard to be 100% sure about the changes in sound, but I think the differences were there, easy to detect, so I post this. I've found that the DI-20, with only 24 hs of burning, has bigger soundstage, more details and better bass than the U16.

Also I've found that I like better the internal Accusilicons 90/98 over my external budget chinese OCXO. 

Finally, Kingwa told me that the DI-20 can burn in just leaving it power on. There's no need for play music through it.


----------



## PLGA (Dec 20, 2019)

I forgot to mention, even I dont play much Hi-Res files, mostly PCM 44.1, its a pleasure being able to change sample rates with no issues whatsoever!

I've only had a couple of times random noise, but I guess it must be something related to the external OCXO and DI connection.


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> I forgot to mention, even I dont play much Hi-Res files, mostly PCM 44.1, its a pleasure being able to change sample rates with no issues whatsoever!
> 
> I've only had a couple of times random noise, but I guess it must be something related to the external OCXO and DI connection.


Likely the external xo. But some can occur during burn-in with internal too, pretty common stuff.


----------



## dacver

500 hrs of burning so far fotDI20HE, 3rd times to listen since , this time...... oh my...I never heard music like this with my system. I don’t know what to say but all is bliss to my ears and aura. All is in the right place and the timbre in all scale is so proper that I feel that the tears will fall on my eyes. There is more space for improvement as it’s only half way to 1000hrs of burning. I’m using i2s connection with audioquest coffee cable and curious usb cable. My R2R 7HE has 2-hdmi connection . Any improvement after this stage for me is a nice welcome consolation . I’m satisfied now and hope to avoid future upgratidis sickness or may be avoid reading the forum for a while .


----------



## FredA

240 hour done here. Looking forward to 400. But the di has had wonderful periods already.


----------



## newabc

PLGA said:


> Finally, Kingwa told me that the DI-20 can burn in just leaving it power on. There's no need for play music through it.



Great news for us. Keeping DI-20 on is much easier than keeping the source, DI-20 and the DAC on.


----------



## PLGA

dacver said:


> 500 hrs of burning so far fotDI20HE, 3rd times to listen since , this time...... oh my...I never heard music like this with my system. I don’t know what to say but all is bliss to my ears and aura. All is in the right place and the timbre in all scale is so proper that I feel that the tears will fall on my eyes. There is more space for improvement as it’s only half way to 1000hrs of burning. I’m using i2s connection with audioquest coffee cable and curious usb cable. My R2R 7HE has 2-hdmi connection . Any improvement after this stage for me is a nice welcome consolation . I’m satisfied now and hope to avoid future upgratidis sickness or may be avoid reading the forum for a while .



Hello Dacver
How good is for the USB Curious Cable?
Do you find it worthwile for the price? 
I was thinking about trying it between my SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo and my DI-20, but Im a little bit skeptic about USB cables, the price is not cheap and, even with free trial period, to return it to Australia is not easy for me living in Argentina.


----------



## dacver

PLGA said:


> Hello Dacver
> How good is for the USB Curious Cable?
> Do you find it worthwile for the price?
> I was thinking about trying it between my SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo and my DI-20, but Im a little bit skeptic about USB cables, the price is not cheap and, even with free trial period, to return it to Australia is not easy for me living in Argentina.



Hi PLGA,
When I bought the curious I aim for the best usb cable I can afford. I can hear the goodness it extract from the recording intend by the engineer (I think) compare to the generic one i got. I do not have other branded names that is why I can not say it is better than other known usb cable. You can read a lot of review and it’s one one of the best available. For me I’m  very happy with the investment I made. I have the 1.5m and the 0.3m for the intona. Yes very expensive, actually when I visit the site they got a new version which is more expensive than the original one.


----------



## soundlogic

My DI-20HE has been on, just under 100 hours. I have the Gustard C16 as an external clock. So far, I am able to play In both “Series” AND “Parallel” mode using C16 as external clock. Can anyone expound on the technical differences between S&P modes? And can someone who has high hour break-in count, chime in on the sonic differences between the two?  Thanks


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> My DI-20HE has been on, just under 100 hours. I have the Gustard C16 as an external clock. So far, I am able to play In both “Series” AND “Parallel” mode using C16 as external clock. Can anyone expound on the technical differences between S&P modes? And can someone who has high hour break-in count, chime in on the sonic differences between the two?  Thanks


The parallel is a different implementation, using parallel processing of the music signal words, as opposed to processing the signal bit per bit, the serial mode. According to Kingwa, fewer clock signals are required in parallel mode, leading to a possibly more accurate timing. For me, the parallel mode is superior, sounds more lively and resolved.  Both implementations have been left to give users a choice.

How do you like the DI-20HE so far?


----------



## soundlogic

Fred; With only 100 hours on it, my honest assessment is: My well broken-in U16/C16 combo was superior on all parameters. As I have mention here, and on the U16 thread...my Gustard U16 (HDMI out to PS Audio Direcstream DAC) easily beat the Mutec MC3+usb, and Singxer Kitsune' tuned SU1. I have high confidence that the Audio-GD DI will exceed the Gustard, but it just has not happened yet...let the flames begin...


----------



## FredA

Yep, i hope it does it for you. One thing is for sure, it has been tuned and devopped using audio-gd dacs, also depending on the dac, the best possible output should vary. On thing for sure, the di needs a lot more burn in, even the u16 was recommended 250 or 350 hours, can't remember the actual number. With audio-gd, any high-end unit needs around 6 month to be fully burned in. But after 3 weeks, you will be 95-98 percent done and you'll know what you got.


----------



## newabc (Dec 21, 2019)

My regular DI-20 has burned in for over 300 hours. I think in these hours, the internal clock used over 200 hours.
My headphone setup: the source (SPDIF RCA output) => (RCA input) DI-20 90/98 (SPDIF acss BNC output) => (BNC input) DAC (acss output) => (acss input) C-2 => K702/Q701
3 Audio-gd gears from DI-20 to C-2 is being used here.
Two SPDIF coaxial cables are based on Canare L-5CFB and its RCA/BNC plugs, 75ohm. ACSS cables from Audio-gd, too.

My impression: musicality, positioning, imaging, airy feel are much much better than directly connecting the same source to DAC by SPDIF. Easy to feel the singer's emotion. First time I can feel the singer is calm, elegant and self-confidence when she is singing in a song. Even I can feel a string of  a string instrument was plucked in which direction. And correct and rich background details are there.

The performance of DI-20 is continually improving.


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> My regular DI-20 has burned in for over 300 hours. I think in these hours, the internal clock used over 200 hours.
> My headphone setup: the source (SPDIF RCA output) => (RCA input) DI-20 90/98 (SPDIF acss BNC output) => (BNC input) DAC (acss output) => (acss input) C-2 => K702/Q701
> 3 Audio-gd gears from DI-20 to C-2 is being used here.
> Two SPDIF coaxial cables are based on Canare L-5CFB and its RCA/BNC plugs, 75ohm. ACSS cables from Audio-gd, too.
> ...


FIY, the internal are staying powered on and are always outputting a sigal as long as the unit it turned on, so they burn-in even when you use the external.


----------



## FredA

I am at day 11 now. The popping noise i had every 3 minute with the external ocxo has gone away i am starting to hear what the DI-20HE can do. And it can do a lot.

This morning, i compared the 4 combinations of i2s/bnc and external/internal

Here are my observations:

1. bnc, with either internal or external clock is indistinguishable, nice sound
2. I2s: the sound is more raw, more direct, the external giving a better bass and perhaps more air. 

So external/i2s has taken the lead after 260 hours. The sound is as real as it gets right now. Also, i flashed the latest fw on the r7he (DOP) last night, which has to be taken into account.


----------



## newabc

newabc said:


> By comparing the SPDIF cables built by MPS X-7(with MPS plugs) and Canare L-5CFB(with Canare plugs), I think 75ohm and a solid conductor core are more important than the materiel of OCC/OFC and whether it is silver-plated or not in digital signal transmission of a coaxial cable. And of cause, lower gauge is better. (L-5CFB is 18awg.)
> 
> I think there will be somebody who want to try a affordable, solid and low wire gauge conductor core and true 75ohm video cable on the SPDIF acss output. Belden has silver-plated 14awg 4731R and 4731P, and 16awg 4794R. They are not OCC or OFC, just low gauge and silver-plated solid copper. And they are designed to transfer 4K and 8K video signal(based on Belden's flyer).



Still cannot find the video cable based on Belden 4731R/4731P, but found some based on 4794R from this head-fi thread, cheaper than amazon.com's third party seller:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-170


----------



## DACLadder

Give the DI about two weeks to start showing what it is consistently capable.  Some variation in sound in first 0 -12 days.  I've only had power apply 24/7 for about 10 days (240 hrs).  And running internal clocks until I can get better external OCXO power supply.


----------



## newabc (Dec 23, 2019)

My regular DI-20 may meet a similar problem of DI-20HE in the burn-in process.

I powered off the source, DAC, headphone amp and external clock and left the DI-20 on with internal clock only for one night. In the next morning, I found headphone amp(C-2) should raise the volume from 30 to 35 to get the same voice volume as the last evening with the same song. And the soundstage shrank. A similar problem like DI-20HE after 300 hours burn-in.

Then I kept the source feeding the DI-20 and closed DAC and headphone amp for over-night. Now C-2 volume returned to 30 but still cannot get the same impression as before. I will try to keep the source feeding DI-20 with or without external clock for 200 hours more to see what will happen.

By the way, 2020 Olympic is coming and 8K video will become standard quality at that time. We will see the BNC or RCA 75ohm cables based on 14awg coaxial cables like Belden 4731R/4731P will appear on the market in 2020. I just ordered a BNC/BNC cable based on 16awg 4794R.


----------



## FredA

My DI has 310 hours done and it sounds splendidly this morning as it was last night. Still on external/i2s. Parallel mode, serial to me is clearly not as good. Not suprising as i think Kingwa developped it cause he was left unsatisfied with what he could get with serial. That is a lot of effort he put in the DI. He was on a mission, to use a cliché. 

The DI is a fantastic music-making unit.  It has such ease in the whole spectrum, it bring fullness and coherence to a level that make other units i had before look like toys, as i said already. It brings out the best out of those tricky old records like Billie Holiday's. And the recent records become  jaw-dropping in some instances.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Just received my DI-20HE.

First impression- TERRIBLE.....  My Shiit Eiter at $99 blows it away.   The DI sounds muffled and dead.  The Eiter- open, crisp and transparent.

I certainly believe in burn in but I thought they burn in 300 hours in the factory before shipping.

I'll run it overnight and see my impressions tomorrow.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Just received my DI-20HE.
> 
> First impression- TERRIBLE.....  My Shiit Eiter at $99 blows it away.   The DI sounds muffled and dead.  The Eiter- open, crisp and transparent.
> 
> ...


Cold out of the box, many reported it is a disappointment. Don't worry.
The factory burn-in is likely just 100 hours. It needs another 300.


----------



## FredA

Listening to Chet Baker's Baker's Holiday. This album is a perfect exemple of vintage material that can sound like sh.. if your setup is not up to the task. Real treat with the HE combo.


----------



## DACLadder

And when you get to the 300 hr mark experiment with power cables.  My guess Kingwa doesn't ship a plastic power cable for a very good reason. 

Internal clocks are going have a lot of variation in sound as they run in.


----------



## PLGA

Has anyone played flawlessly Tidal MQA with the DI-20 (HE version or not)?  

I havent done a lot of test, but I get random and frequent noise (similar to pink noise) playing MQA, upsampled or not with Audinirvana+. It works perfectly with Tidal HiFi 44.1 kHz PCM, upsampled and not by Audinirvana, but I have trouble with MQA. I havent tried yet DSD or PCM Hi Res.

My SOtM SMS Ultra Neo is feeding the DI-20 with USB and from the DI-20 to my R8 DAC there´s a 2.1 protocol HDMI cable.

Any thoughts?


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> And when you get to the 300 hr mark experiment with power cables.  My guess Kingwa doesn't ship a plastic power cable for a very good reason.
> 
> Internal clocks are going have a lot of variation in sound as they run in.


One good point with the internal clocks, using an external one gives a big advantage in the beginning.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I am hearing some static background noise on every song.  Is this what is called "pink noise" or is it a problem?

If it is pink noise- will it go away with burn-in?


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> I am hearing some static background noise on every song.  Is this what is called "pink noise" or is it a problem?
> 
> If it is pink noise- will it go away with burn-in?



Not to worry, it is most likely the noise I had during the earliest hours of burn in. It will disappear... just let it run powered on.
/Jan


----------



## PLGA

rsbrsvp said:


> I am hearing some static background noise on every song.  Is this what is called "pink noise" or is it a problem?
> 
> If it is pink noise- will it go away with burn-in?



No, what I called pink noise is like static noise from the Tv. You can look for Pink Noise on Tidal or any other streaming service and you will see what I mean.

In my case, with Tidal MQA the songs suddenly turns completely into that kind of noise, no music background what so ever, only noise. I cant play any Tidal MQA. 

I will follow it and see if changes with burning or other setting options.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I am hearing some static background noise on every song.  Is this what is called "pink noise" or is it a problem?
> 
> If it is pink noise- will it go away with burn-in?


I had such an issue with the external clock, it went away after 225 hours.


----------



## newabc

newabc said:


> My regular DI-20 may meet a similar problem of DI-20HE in the burn-in process.
> 
> I powered off the source, DAC, headphone amp and external clock and left the DI-20 on with internal clock only for one night. In the next morning, I found headphone amp(C-2) should raise the volume from 30 to 35 to get the same voice volume as the last evening with the same song. And the soundstage shrank. A similar problem like DI-20HE after 300 hours burn-in.
> 
> Then I kept the source feeding the DI-20 and closed DAC and headphone amp for over-night. Now C-2 volume returned to 30 but still cannot get the same impression as before. I will try to keep the source feeding DI-20 with or without external clock for 200 hours more to see what will happen.



1-2 days later, the impression, especially the soundstage, come back to around 80% as before.


----------



## Wynnytsky

got mine a couple hours ago, 13 days after paypal'ing.  DHL delivered a day ahead of schedule - not bad for the xmas season.

input: wire world platinum => w4s recovery (LPS'd by hdplex) => prana photon
output: 1m Audioquest vodka

3 hours in and everything is big, but the bass is like no other DDC.  Not sure if my prior DDCs were bass deficient but techno and the like will be hard to listen to until after I re-sweep the room and create new EQ filters.  Density is high and fatigue in the highs is way way down (and that's w/o using an Intona).  Impressive dynamics in all frequencies.  Went through choral, nut cracker, 4 seasons, vampire weekend.  I expected this thing to get at least as warm as the r2r7 but that's not the case.

Anyway to dim the display?  Several layers of Scotch tape is gonna look ghetto.  Not sure if my r2r7 used to be that bright, but now it's half as bright as the di20he.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> got mine a couple hours ago, 13 days after paypal'ing.  DHL delivered a day ahead of schedule - not bad for the xmas season.
> 
> input: wire world platinum => w4s recovery (LPS'd by hdplex) => prana photon
> output: 1m Audioquest vodka
> ...


Just turn off the display. Push the setting button as many time as needed for rightmost digit to blink. Push "selector" to select "A" for autodark...


----------



## FredA

Welcome to the club, Victor!


----------



## DACLadder

@Wynnytsky  Awesome!  Enjoy...


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Just turn off the display. Push the setting button as many time as needed for rightmost digit to blink. Push "selector" to select "A" for autodark...


nice, TY
it's silly that the left button (setting) moves the selection right
and the button to it's right (Ext CLK) moves the selection left



FredA said:


> Welcome to the club, Victor!


I promise to be a rational di owner and not go full fanboy.
I figure around the 500hour mark and my 3rd glass I may lose my schitt once on this thread.

sitting here trying to get in as much listening before things start to suck.
I've never listened to so many tracks without skipping or volume adjustments.  With the SU1 I'm constantly doing that in pursuit of max excitement w/o subjecting myself to fatigue.  So when I see a stretch of open road I'd crank it until I got to a dangerous turn in the music.  I've got the DI20 playing relatively low with no fatigue or boredom in site.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> nice, TY
> it's silly that the left button (setting) moves the selection right
> and the button to it's right (Ext CLK) moves the selection left
> 
> ...


It's able to sound full while providing great spatialisation. The treble together with the r7-he is perfect.


----------



## FredA

Listening to Ellington at Newport, old record, quite distorted when the brass are pushing, but what depth!


----------



## newabc

newabc said:


> 1-2 days later, the impression, especially the soundstage, come back to around 80% as before.



Still in the process of burning-in the DI-20.
Last night I opened the DAC and the C-2 amp, and kept the volume to 00 as Fred said about NFB-1AMP in the C-2 11A and NFB-1AMP thread. This morning, for the same song, volume 26 can reach the previous level of 30. The musicality, sound stage and airy feel come back. But the resolution is still on 60%-80% level of the previous shining impression.


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> Still in the process of burning-in the DI-20.
> Last night I opened the DAC and the C-2 amp, and kept the volume to 00 as Fred said about NFB-1AMP in the C-2 11A and NFB-1AMP thread. This morning, for the same song, volume 26 can reach the previous level of 30. The musicality, sound stage and airy feel come back. But the resolution is still on 60%-80% level of the previous shining impression.


There are regression phases during burn-in. Phases during which sound quality will be so so.. From 250 hours on, things will get more optimal.


----------



## darren700 (Dec 24, 2019)

Received my DI-20HE Today (in addition to the DI-20 90/98 I already have).
Will burn the DI-20HE in on my headphone setup with R1 and Master 9.
After burn in will swap the DI-20HE with the DI-20 in my speaker system with R2R-7 to see if the DI-20HE adds any benefit vs the DI-20 when being fed by a HE-350.
I asked Kingwa if the DI-20HE would be be improved by a HE-350 and he said the following
"I have not try this connection. In theory the DI20HE input power is more pure , less interrupt, can help the regenerative parts working better , and help the output wave more pure .
I think can connect and improve but it need the compare by yourself."


----------



## Wynnytsky

darren700 said:


> After burn in will swap the DI-20HE with the DI-20 in my speaker system with R2R-7


looking forward to your findings -- would like the HE's mark quantified before I can recommend one over the other

Snuck a listen at the 24hr mark and it was tremendous.  Bass wasn't sounding overblown so the other frequencies may be catching up.  Won't be touching EQ for a couple weeks.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> looking forward to your findings -- would like the HE's mark quantified before I can recommend one over the other
> 
> Snuck a listen at the 24hr mark and it was tremendous.  Bass wasn't sounding overblown so the other frequencies may be catching up.  Won't be touching EQ for a couple weeks.


It should have 2-3 episods where it gets below or equal to the u16, but it will never be harsh.


----------



## PLGA (Dec 25, 2019)

My system, with the DI-20 with only about 72 hs of burning, is doing things I think I never heard from it. It reminds me when some of you said voices were "spooky" real. Also the speakers disappear more and there's an improved layering and soundstage. Im very pleased with my still not fully burned DI-20.

I cant wait for my Audioquest Niagara 1200 to arrive in the following days!


----------



## PLGA (Dec 25, 2019)

My U16 will go on sale soon!!


----------



## Wynnytsky

PLGA said:


> I cant wait for my Audioquest Niagara 1200 to arrive in the following days!



I went from a PSA P3, to Cullen box (no protection or filtering), to the Niagara 1200.  Super happy with the Niagara -- my friend is a dealer if anyone wants anything audioquest (heavily discounted).


----------



## roni44

After reading this entire thread, I am convinced to ditch buggy U16 and move on to the greener pastures. Some of you may remember me, I was the one posted Ext. 10mhz GPSDO Clock which I will continue to use, my question is is there even a reason for me to get 90/98m or TCXO version will do just fine?


----------



## JaMo

roni44 said:


> After reading this entire thread, I am convinced to ditch buggy U16 and move on to the greener pastures. Some of you may remember me, I was the one posted Ext. 10mhz GPSDO Clock which I will continue to use, my question is is there even a reason for me to get 90/98m or TCXO version will do just fine?



You should take the Accusilicon 90/98 alternative. Their phase noise and jitter levels are far superior to the TCXO's. Very much impacting on the sound and well worth the extra money.
/Jan


----------



## rsbrsvp

I just- by trial and error found out something very positive about the DI-20HE.   I have a USB cable that has two USB A connectors- one is "V Bus" and one is "Data".  I just disconnected the V-bus and the Di-20HE still works.   That mean s No computer noise as only data without power is transferring from the computer.


----------



## jimmychan

DI20 does not need 5V power from the USB cable.


----------



## Genna

jimmychan siad it...if I understand it right, the DI-20/HE have a kind of „galvanic isolated“ USB port. 

I can’t wait until the End of January to complete my system with a DI-20HE!


----------



## FredA

Genna said:


> jimmychan siad it...if I understand it right, the DI-20/HE have a kind of „galvanic isolated“ USB port.
> 
> I can’t wait until the End of January to complete my system with a DI-20HE!


Not exactly true. It has galvanic isolation between the usb side and the signal side, like the Singxers products. It remains true that the di20he will sound better when fed a clean usb signal, like every ddc out there i know of.


----------



## Genna

FredA said:


> Not exactly true. It has galvanic isolation between the usb side and the signal side, like the Singxers products. It remains true that the di20he will sound better when fed a clean usb signal, like every ddc out there i know of.



Thank you for the enlightenment, I already feared that I didn‘t understand it correctly.

Now I hope that the outcoming usb signal of my Auralic Aries G1 is clean so that I don’t regret having already sold my micro iUSB3.0 with Gemini & Mercury cables.


----------



## FredA

Genna said:


> Thank you for the enlightenment, I already feared that I didn‘t understand it correctly.
> 
> Now I hope that the outcoming usb signal of my Auralic Aries G1 is clean so that I don’t regret having already sold my micro iUSB3.0 with Gemini & Mercury cables.


For the money Aurilic is asking, i sure hope it is.


----------



## Wynnytsky

jimmychan said:


> DI20 does not need 5V power from the USB cable.


thank you for pointing that out -- I confirmed that much by testing with a cable that let's me lift the 5v pin.  But I preferred listening with the w4s recovery so I guess that suggests it's the reclocking and filtering aspect of the w4s and not the clean power feed.  For kicks I'll try the Intona in place of the w4s (even though the di20 should already have the galvanic isolation).



Genna said:


> iUSB3.0 with Gemini & Mercury cables.


wow I had that trio years ago.  I recall their cables having a very wide stage but leaving a giant whole in the middle (very stereo sounding).  I followed the iUSB3.0 with the iGalvanic but found that even more heavy handed, like it was remastering my music in real time.  The w4s had the lightest touch.  These inline USB accouterments are necessary for laptops but if you have a free PCIe slot then I would think the USB cards from Sotm/JCAT/PinkFaun would be the way to go (no second USB cable needed).


----------



## roni44

JaMo said:


> You should take the Accusilicon 90/98 alternative. Their phase noise and jitter levels are far superior to the TCXO's. Very much impacting on the sound and well worth the extra money.
> /Jan



Ok, 90/98 it is, thanks again.


----------



## anroj

PLGA said:


> Hello guys
> I've got my DI-20 (non HE) and, after 24 hs of burning, I tried it against the U16.
> 
> Its fair to mention that with so many changes in the last weeks (R8 firmware last weekend for instance), its hard to be 100% sure about the changes in sound, but I think the differences were there, easy to detect, so I post this. I've found that the DI-20, with only 24 hs of burning, has bigger soundstage, more details and better bass than the U16.
> ...


I just got my DI-20 today and got it plugged into my PS Audio Power Plant. I’ve got about 10 hours on it and haven’t done any serious listening, but just the couple of times I stopped to listen, it was already beating my U16. The DI-20 soundstage is much wider and deeper as well as taller in a more realistic sense. Vocals seem to be on their plane, when there in the recordings. Burning this thing in is going to be fun. A great Christmas gift to myself.


----------



## newabc

newabc said:


> Still in the process of burning-in the DI-20.
> Last night I opened the DAC and the C-2 amp, and kept the volume to 00 as Fred said about NFB-1AMP in the C-2 11A and NFB-1AMP thread. This morning, for the same song, volume 26 can reach the previous level of 30. The musicality, sound stage and airy feel come back. But the resolution is still on 60%-80% level of the previous shining impression.



The resolution comes back. Now everything comes back. (BTW, the resolution of K702 on C-2 amp is a bit better than Q701.)
I will keep burning in the DI-20 until it got over 500 hours by leaving the source and DI-20 on and others off.


----------



## Tango Sierra

I am so excited. I sent the payment today for a DI-20HE. 

Would it be OK to plug the DI-20HE into a symmetrical outlet on my Furman Reference IT-20 power conditioner? Or should I plug it into the High Current Low Impedance side where my computer UPS is connected? Or should I not connect it to the Furman? I live in an old farmhouse with limited electrical wall outlets.

I arrange my connections so that the four individual Discrete Symmetrical Power channels (which have two outlets each) are not sharing devices at the same time. The top outlet row is dedicated to analog and the bottom row powers digital equipment. Depending on what I am listening to, I power on only analog OR digital front end equipment at one time. That way, there is no electrical backwash of one component causing interference in another component. Of course, the Master 9 is powered on all the time by a Symmetrical outlet but it does not share a circuit with any other device.

The analog components are: Master 9 preamp, Sota Turntable, Luxman Tape Deck, NuVista Phono Stage
The digital components are or will be: Aurender music server, DI20-HE DDC, Master 7 Singularity DAC

I use the High Current (Low Impedance) outlet side of the IT-20 to power my computer UPS which is filtered from the Hi-Fi outlets.

I have a second Furman IT-20 reference to power my Odyssey Mono Amps and Video Gear.


----------



## JaMo

Tango Sierra said:


> Would it be OK to plug the DI-20HE into a symmetrical outlet on my Furman Reference IT-20 power conditioner? Or should I plug it into the High Current Low Impedance side where my computer UPS is connected? Or should I not connect it to the Furman?



Congrats.The DI20HE is a statement and with potential future firmware updates, it will be more of them. Answer: - On a theoretical level, You should connect it to the linear filtered outlet (on right). But I think You should try all options and choose the one You prefer. The HE has a refined power regeneration so it could very well end up with not using the IT-20. You have the luxury to choose.
/Jan


----------



## FredA

After 480 hours, the imaging/soundstaging of the di20-he is in a league by itself. Layering, tonality, dynamics are great. Very black background as many mentioned. It can depict depth outstandingly when the recording has it.

I am very happy with my purchase. I am still using the external clock and i2s at this point. I will give the internal a try soon. Same for spdif. And i will be trying aes/ebu within the next weeks too.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> After 480 hours, the imaging/soundstaging of the di20-he is in a league by itself.



It was good on first listen and mazin after 24hours.  Yesterday I had a friend listening at 140 hours and we got the sense that it struggled with volume, like a paper jet slowly stalling and recovering.  Contrary to watching a flower bloom in time lapse, this thing backs off now and then.

And to those rolling BNC and AES, I look forward to some consensus on a favorite so I'm spared the time and expense.


----------



## anroj

FredA said:


> After 480 hours, the imaging/soundstaging of the di20-he is in a league by itself. Layering, tonality, dynamics are great. Very black background as many mentioned. It can depict depth outstandingly when the recording has it.
> 
> I am very happy with my purchase. I am still using the external clock and i2s at this point. I will give the internal a try soon. Same for spdif. And i will be trying aes/ebu within the next weeks too.


I have about 50 hours on my DI-20 and haven't sat down for serious listening yet, but from my initial impressions until i stopped for a quick listen last night, front-to-back imaging seemed to deepen a bit, but it seemed a bit compressed overall. The background is still quiet and I am able to pick out subtle shading such as the subtle snare brushwork on Kind of Blue much better than I could on the U16. I am sure as the DI-20 continues to burn in, things will even out as far as the overall balance and cohesiveness of the overall sound presentation.


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Jan 12, 2020)

off the top of my head, with continuous playback over the past 2 weeks after slacking at the start, my DI-20HE should be sitting at 500-600+ hours.  Have run both I2S and been burning in the Belden 4794R BNC cable too. 

Roon> DI-20HE > R7HE > Glenn OTL headamp > HE1000SE/Verite Ltd chain sounds glorious on every listen


----------



## DACLadder

Happy New Year everyone... 2019 was epic at Audio GD.  2020 will probably be full of surprises.

Ended week 3 and just starting week 4 with the DI20HE.  This past week the DI is really started to shine and stand out on its own.  

I have been fiddling with external clock the whole time.  I have spent way more money on these oscillators than I first plan so don't be afraid to experiment with external clocks.  OCXO power supply made a big difference and also coax cable type and lengths are being explored.  I even ordered another Oscilloquartz board to see if that makes a difference.  Quality of external clocks is a huge influence in the way my system sounds.  So dialing in external clocks at the moment.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> Quality of external clocks is a huge influence in the way my system sounds. So dialing in external clocks at the moment.


Does your R7 also accept a clock?  Wouldn't it be most attractive to have both the DI20 and R7 to be slaved to the same master clock?  Perhaps the quality/accuracy of a clock wouldn't matter as much so long as they both march to the same beat.

For all those that want to buy my Kitsune SU1, please get in single file outside my front door.  Doorbell doesn't work so just start caroling or something and I'll hear you.


----------



## DACLadder

@Wynnytsky  No my R7 does not accept external clock.  Yes it makes a lot of sense to have both the DI and DAC run external clock from the same source.  Data movement between boxes would be synchronous.

The R7 2020 rework for external clock is too complicated (I hear).  Many PCB cuts, jumps, and wires.  I would think Kingwa will spin the main Singularity board to incorporate the rework for production.  

About two months ago Kingwa mentioned,for the older designs, he is trying to come up with both DI and DAC firmware for synchronous operation.  Just speculating but you would connect an output from the DAC (repurposed SPDIF output) and connect that to the DI clock input.  This would be a reference clock for the DI.  Not necessarily 10M but something the DI can lock onto.  That is the gist of his conversation about reworking the R7.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R (Jan 1, 2020)

Hi guys!
I am new as writer on this forum and my hi-fi experience is not big so I have several strange questions)
I am using dac and headamp connected to my pc. its big watercooled machine with dual corsair ax1500i psus
now i have "some power conditioner" WAudio W-4000. Both psus with dac and headamp are connected to it
dac is Master 7 Singularity
headamp is Master 9
my pc is connected to dac directly by spdif cable
I decided to pull most out of audio gd sound system
So I am selling my master 7 singularity and master 9
And I ordered DI-20HE, R-7HE(2020) and Master 9HE(2019).
Also WAudio W-4000 already changed to Powergrip  YG-1 V2 power conditioner. It is evolution of Belkin PureAV PF40/PF50/PF60 products.
Powergrip  YG-1 has three types of connections: Digital, Analog and High current. I dont know exactly what that means.
1. Does anybody know what types of connections I need to use for DI-20HE, R-7HE, Master 9HE and PC ?

As I heared the way for best quality is to connect pc with DI-20HE by usb cable and then DI-20HE with R-7HE by hdmi cable.
2. Can you advice usb cable for PC->Di-20HE please ? may be the best way is to make it from Litz wire? or some "fake" high-end cable from aliexpress?
3. Can you advice hdmi i2s cable for DI-20HE->R-7HE please? There are some hdmi 2.1 cables including optic ones like this one or non optic like this one. I think they must be good because of hdmi 2.1 and 48gbps guarantee, bad cable cant guarantee high bandwidth. What do you think guys ?
4. Does I need any additional cables for best DI-20HE->R-7HE connection? For clocks synchronization? Should I run DI-20HE with external or internal clock? 
It is my first converter..


----------



## FredA (Jan 1, 2020)

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Hi guys!
> I am new as writer on this forum and my hi-fi experience is not big so I have several strange questions)
> I am using dac and headamp connected to my pc. its big watercooled machine with dual corsair ax1500i psus
> now i have "some power conditioner" WAudio W-4000. Both psus with dac and headamp are connected to it
> ...


Welcome.

My best advice would be connect all you HE gears straight to the wall, otherwise use the high-current outlets.

Get heavy-gauge power cables for them.

As hdmi cable, get a 0.5m cable. I have a Moshou 2.0b now and it is very nice. Turn all gears off when making this connection. 

I use this usb cable, it is excellent, be warned it will sound a bit bright before burn in (80 hours).

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/0-7-Meter-H...568100?hash=item1ec2768ce4:g:pAsAAOSwrZBcMzMp


Get an acss cable to connect the dac the headphone amp if you don't have one.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@REAN1MAT0R 

Because your using an ATX computer you are compelled to get an audiophile USB card like those discussed here
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/56344-best-audiophile-usb-card/
If you like the results you can add a Keces P3 and it'll just get better.
I would hope that with one of these cards you'll have no need for any additional inline USB accoutrements.

If you hadn't ordered that DI20HE I would have suggested trying this first
https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/bridge/69-4072-i2s-bridge.html


----------



## PLGA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Hi guys!
> I am new as writer on this forum and my hi-fi experience is not big so I have several strange questions)
> I am using dac and headamp connected to my pc. its big watercooled machine with dual corsair ax1500i psus
> now i have "some power conditioner" WAudio W-4000. Both psus with dac and headamp are connected to it
> ...



Well, as I see it, your biggest problem will be the USB signal. My experience with USB signals from computers is that they are crap. 

With those three HE Audio-gd products fed by a computer signal, I would say is like having a Ferrari driven by grandma.

I would think about spending some money on a device that can provide a clean USB signal to the DI-20HE, like the Sonore Ultrarendu or the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. Im sure they will make a BIG difference in sound.


----------



## FredA

@PLGA Good point. I use a usbridge signature followed by an intona. Giving a clean and well clocked signal to the di20-he improves sound quality.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> I use a usbridge signature followed by an intona.


The DI20HE is my first interface that doesn't care about the Intona (I would assume this is also true of the ISO Regen).  The W4S recovery still brought a welcome improvement even though the DI20HE continued to operate after I lifted the 5v pin on my USB cable.

Thanks for suggesting the HE be plugged to the wall -- I should have thought to try that.  With this everything is more and I'm not hearing any detriment.

Power cord selection has a bigger impact on the DI20HE than it does on my R2R7.


----------



## FredA (Jan 2, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> The DI20HE is my first interface that doesn't care about the Intona (I would assume this is also true of the ISO Regen).  The W4S recovery still brought a welcome improvement even though the DI20HE continued to operate after I lifted the 5v pin on my USB cable.
> 
> Thanks for suggesting the HE be plugged to the wall -- I should have thought to try that.  With this everything is more and I'm not hearing any detriment.
> 
> Power cord selection has a bigger impact on the DI20HE than it does on my R2R7.


Actually, mine is hooked to a 500VA isolation transfo. The point is to avoid limiting current too much.
I tried today with and without the intona and i still prefer with it but the usbrdige is on a separate power distributor so the intona breaks a possible ground loop. When the usbridge is fully burned in, i will try again to take the intona out.


----------



## ProLoL

PLGA said:


> Well, as I see it, your biggest problem will be the USB signal. My experience with USB signals from computers is that they are crap.
> 
> With those three HE Audio-gd products fed by a computer signal, I would say is like having a Ferrari driven by grandma.
> 
> I would think about spending some money on a device that can provide a clean USB signal to the DI-20HE, like the Sonore Ultrarendu or the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. Im sure they will make a BIG difference in sound.



Block the 4th pin on the right in your usb with a tape, will improve things.


----------



## Genna

I’m also new here and had my attempts to make a computer sound good about two years ago and want to share my result: buy a streamer!

I started with a modified Macbook Unibody (Mid 2011) with 8 Gb RAM, 256 GB SSD and to avoid vibrations convert the build-in cd drive to a external drive. I bought a iFi Audio micro iUSB3.0 with Gemini & Mercury cable (~1300 EUR)  for a better and cleaner USB signal and had an improvement. I tried a Win10 Singleboardcomputer LattePanda (Raspie on steroids) too, but finally I came to the true that the circuit boards are not designed for a clean and clear signal...

I looked for a streamer bridge and bought a used Auralic Aires Femto...welcome in another world!
After 3 months I upgraded the Aries Femto to the newer Aries G1 because it fits perfectly to the Audio-GD’s devices visually.

Don‘t waste time and money and try a streamer (bridge) and you will not regret it.

I don‘t have a DDC, but end of this month I’ll order a DI-20HE!


----------



## PLGA

Genna said:


> I’m also new here and had my attempts to make a computer sound good about two years ago and want to share my result: buy a streamer!



I couldnt agree more. Dont waste your time on computers.


----------



## PLGA

Wynnytsky said:


> he W4S recovery still brought a welcome improvement even though the DI20HE continued to operate after I lifted the 5v pin on my USB cable.



Regarding the W4S RUR, I've also had it and it made a good improvement on my computer USB signal, but actually it made worse my SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo USB signal. I understand John Darko came to a similar conclusion, its only worthwile if you have a computer USB signal.


----------



## DACLadder

The DDC wars are heating up... Singxer has a new model SU-2.  Looks like an SU-1 but with Accusilicon XOs and external 10M input. Around $400.


----------



## Jackula

PC is fine as long as you understand the source of its weakness and address it. Usually it's the proximity of your PC to the rest of your equipment , differential noise on mains and USB noise.

USB noise is easily treatable i.e. via my ISO Regen, noise on mains is treated via filters or AC regen and I have a 3m air gap between my PC and the rest of my gear.

I've had people bring over their Auralic Aries, Soundaware D300, Sotm etc and surprise, there was either no audible difference and in some cases my PC sounded better.


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> PC is fine as long as you understand the source of its weakness and address it. Usually it's the proximity of your PC to the rest of your equipment , differential noise on mains and USB noise.
> 
> USB noise is easily treatable i.e. via my ISO Regen, noise on mains is treated via filters or AC regen and I have a 3m air gap between my PC and the rest of my gear.
> 
> I've had people bring over their Auralic Aries, Soundaware D300, Sotm etc and surprise, there was either no audible difference and in some cases my PC sounded better.


Many combinations can work. I like the two node solution where one computer decodes the data and sends it over upnp or other ethernet protocol to second (audiophile) node which just relays the well clocked bytes to the ddc. I have yet to try it.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Many combinations can work. I like the two node solution where one computer decodes the data and sends it over upnp or other ethernet protocol to second (audiophile) node which just relays the well clocked bytes to the ddc. I have yet to try it.


agreed

@REAN1MAT0R
If you like downloading+collecting your own music then your off to a great start with that ATX build.  Just put it in your home office and spoil yourself with a good chair and DasKeyboard (no need for PCIe cards).  Share your music with Roon (I use JRiver) and send a gigabit ethernet run to your audio room where I imagine a Sotm sMS-200ultra Neo would be the best bang for the buck.  Maybe there are simple endpoints from Melco, Aurender, Lumin, or Innuos -- no need to pay for their full on server offerings as you already have one.

Now if you want to watch mkv/youtube/etc videos on your stereo (and that's not asking much) then I would still keep your water cooled box in the office and consider a second mini computer which could also run Roon or JRiver.  Laptops/NUCs/pies are underpowered and noisy.  I hope AMDs Zen3 shakes up the mini computer market because Intel is in a rut.


----------



## FredA

The usbridge signature can be used as an endpoint. Roon or upnp. Or airplay. Requires some skills to set-up but sound quality is very good with it after 70 hours of burn-in. Sound quality is supposedly comparable to a sotm sms-200 (not neo).


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> My best advice would be connect all you HE gears straight to the wall, otherwise use the high-current outlets.


I have only one outlet so my pc and audio gear all must be connected with Powergrip YG-1
The only question is how to spread two pc cables, di-20he, r-7he and master 9he between its 4 digital outputs 4 analog outputs and 2 high current outputs



FredA said:


> Get heavy-gauge power cables for them.


I am using Furutech FP-3TS762 for two PC psus and have one more for Di-20HE, using Furutech Alpha-PS9 for master7 singularity and master 9 now - they will go to R-7HE and Master 9HE. I am searching for something for Powergrip YG-1 as it need non standart C20 plug like two of my pc psus



FredA said:


> As hdmi cable, get a 0.5m cable. I have a Moshou 2.0b now and it is very nice. Turn all gears off when making this connection.


good news) so i will try their hdmi 2.1



FredA said:


> I use this usb cable, it is excellent, be warned it will sound a bit bright before burn in (80 hours).
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/0-7-Meter-H...568100?hash=item1ec2768ce4:gAsAAOSwrZBcMzMp


Hard to choose when seller does not show cable inside
I bought this one some time ago. Hope I will find and try it



FredA said:


> Get an acss cable to connect the dac the headphone amp if you don't have one.


are you shure acss is better option then XLR with furutech FA-220 cable? acss from audio-gd looks like low end cable. I have to make this cable from litz wire but it will cost some money while I dont shure if acss connection is 100% better then xlr



Wynnytsky said:


> Because your using an ATX computer you are compelled to get an audiophile USB card like those discussed here





PLGA said:


> I would think about spending some money on a device that can provide a clean USB signal to the DI-20HE


lol what? do you mean i need something MORE between dac and pc then only DI-20HE???... omg
It will be hard to add another one pci-e card on motherboard for me. because I already have two videocards and pci-e x4 SSD. adding one more pci-e device will cut pci-e x16 to x8 for one of videocards but my pc is top gaming machine so its..undesirably



PLGA said:


> I couldnt agree more. Dont waste your time on computers.


hah) I am wasting time on audio
Because I am using audio gear not for music playing but for all: games, video, music



Wynnytsky said:


> If you like downloading+collecting your own music then your off to a great start with that ATX build. Just put it in your home office and spoil yourself with a good chair and DasKeyboard (no need for PCIe cards). Share your music with Roon (I use JRiver) and send a gigabit ethernet run to your audio room where I imagine a Sotm sMS-200ultra Neo would be the best bang for the buck. Maybe there are simple endpoints from Melco, Aurender, Lumin, or Innuos -- no need to pay for their full on server offerings as you already have one.


I just using computer for all computer things) Games, video, music. I am trying to make its sound perfect as possible.
I don't see the point of making a separate room for audio. I want to listen all stuff  in my chair:


Spoiler: auch!






























Vibrating watercooling on the balcony:






Chair photo)


----------



## PLGA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I have only one outlet so my pc and audio gear all must be connected with Powergrip YG-1
> The only question is how to spread two pc cables, di-20he, r-7he and master 9he between its 4 digital outputs 4 analog outputs and 2 high current outputs
> 
> 
> ...



No, I dont think you are wasting your time on this hobby, its a beautiful one!  Expensive, but beautiful!

Take everything we say with a grain of salt, as YMMV!  As you see above, many of us have different experiences, needs, ears and systems. I'm sure your three Audio-GD HE products will sound GREAT with ANYTHING you throw at them, but just make sure you provide the DI-20HE with the best USB signal possible in your situation. 

If you need to use a computer, I would humbly suggest to try one USB conditioner like the Wyred4Sound USB Reclocker. It's not expensive and may be you can try it, or one similar, with a 30 day trial period. If you don't like it, you can return it. Of course, after you have burned your Audio-GD devices.

Good luck!


----------



## FredA

@REAN1MAT0R

The fa-220 puts emphasis on the mids when used as acss (very hard to assemble as such), as xlr it should be similar. So you can get better than this. The usb cable i linked is easily comparable to a 200$ cable.


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## REAN1MAT0R (Jan 2, 2020)

FredA said:


> The fa-220 puts emphasis on the mids when used as acss (very hard to assemble as such), as xlr it should be similar. So you can get better than this.


its sad
I will try to find out what custom cable options I can have. I think the only available option will be copper litz wire
Are you shure that ACSS connection is better then XLR for audio gd? with same cable



PLGA said:


> make sure you provide the DI-20HE with the best USB signal possible in your situation.


I think DI-20 already reclocks usb to its best way and I dont need anything more
I dont understand why it still needs one more reclocker as it already has Accusilicon 90/98M clocks? and which one is best way without unnessesary overpayment? iFi Audio micro iUSB3.0 ? Singxer SU-2? Singxer SU-2 looks like similar device to Di-20
May be DI-20HE is not best option (Singxer SU-2 offers higher bitrates and looks to me more powerful) and I need to choose another one(s) ?
What device I need between dac R-7HE and PC usb for collaboration with Di-20HE or without it if there are better options?
I dont want to overpay for brands as I choose Audio-GD and I know that sound can be top level without 25000$ dac but I dont want tu buy useless devices to sell them after. I need good rock solid choice.



Wynnytsky said:


> Laptops/NUCs/pies are underpowered and noisy


I have Dell Alienware Area-51m 9900K 64gb ram RTX2080 and MSI Titan GT76 9900KS 128Gb ram RTX2080 they are high powered but you dont need them as all music stuff is near pc and its too heavy to move it to laptop))


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## FredA (Jan 2, 2020)

REAN1MAT0R said:


> its sad
> I will try to find out what custom cable options I can have. I think the only available option will be copper litz wire
> Are you shure that ACSS connection is better then XLR for audio gd? with same cable


Copper litz if real litz, enameled one, should beat the fa-220. Any single wire i have tried, i tried 2-3 as both, was always better as acss. Acss is the way to go with audio-gd for the ultimate sound quality. Aliexpress sells silver litz,  if you can solder. Litz is hard to work with. Needs sanding to get rid of the enamel, then needs to be tined...


----------



## Wynnytsky

REAN1MAT0R said:


> hah) I am wasting time on audio
> Because I am using audio gear not for music playing but for all: games, video, music


Love that response, and it really hit home when I clicked your spoiler alert.
I keep forgetting this place is called headfi and I spend half my time thinking about my room and how sound bounces.
Wait till Qinghua sees that computer -- maybe he could help you direct some of that cooling to his HE units.

I want to throw in my own experience with computer power:
I can't say for certain I heard a difference between powering a computer with a 200watt 10amp LPS and a laptop brick.
But anything I gave LPS power in between the computer and DAC was huge (USB "regenerators" and USB interface).

I also have one dual gang outlet, so one plug gets the Niagara 1200 and the other was empty.
Last night (around 250 hours) I moved the DI20HE from the Niagara 1200 to the empty outlet and that was a sound worthy of the over-the-top praise I've read here.
After doing that I heard a tick of noise every now and then but that cleared as it warmed up, and even if stayed I would keep it in the wall because it was that impressive.

Q: Do you plan to on getting amazing VR goggles, or at least a big monitor for that?  If I didn't know better I'd think that thing was procured for mining crypto currency or some other brute force problem solving.


----------



## PLGA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I think DI-20 already reclocks usb to its best way and I dont need anything more
> I dont understand why it still needs one more reclocker as it already has Accusilicon 90/98M clocks? and which one is best way without unnessesary overpayment? iFi Audio micro iUSB3.0 ? Singxer SU-2? Singxer SU-2 looks like similar device to Di-20
> May be DI-20HE is not best option (Singxer SU-2 offers higher bitrates and looks to me more powerful) and I need to choose another one(s) ?
> What device I need between dac R-7HE and PC usb for collaboration with Di-20HE or without it if there are better options?
> I dont want to overpay for brands as I choose Audio-GD and I know that sound can be top level without 25000$ dac but I dont want tu buy useless devices to sell them after. I need good rock solid choice.



Well, its really hard to know for sure, unless you experiment.

I would start with the three Audio-GD HE products and then, if you have the chance, I would advice you to try some USB conditioner as they are not too expensive and they can improve the PC USB signal. May be you can borrow one. 

I havent tried the DI-20 feeding it with my PC + the W4S RUR vs my SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo alone, but I did it on with Gustard U16, another DDC like the DI-20.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R (Jan 2, 2020)

FredA said:


> Copper litz if real litz, enameled one, should beat the fa-220. Any single wire i have tried, i tried 2-3 as both, was always better as acss. Acss is the way to go with audio-gd for the ultimate sound quality.


thanks a lot!
I have a friend that make audio cables from litz wire here in Moscow so I will order acss plugs and make this cable.



Wynnytsky said:


> Q: Do you plan to on getting amazing VR goggles, or at least a big monitor for that? If I didn't know better I'd think that thing was procured for mining crypto currency or some other brute force problem solving.


Gaming. I have 27 inches 165hz 2540*1440 ips monitor now. tried dell 3440x1440 120hz ips last year but they had certain quality problems so I am waiting for some reasonable with 4k or ultra-wide with high refresh rate. Its complicated by the fact that monitor manufacturers dont support new video cables standarts such as hdmi 2.1. Therefore they are limited by the bandwidth of old video cables versions and they can not handle ultrawide or 4k with 165-175-200hz without color compression. Color compression (chroma subsampling 4:2:2 and lower) looks very bad on any still image.
nobody uses expensive components or watercooling for mining - "minumun investment" is the main goal for it



Wynnytsky said:


> Last night (around 250 hours) I moved the DI20HE from the Niagara 1200 to the empty outlet and that was a sound worthy of the over-the-top praise I've read here.
> After doing that I heard a tick of noise every now and then but that cleared as it warmed up, and even if stayed I would keep it in the wall because it was that impressive.


I have Powergrip YG-1 and tried Master 7 Singularity + Master 9 with it and it make good difference. Despite I have big and very good stabilizer/filter for all home electricity.
They are not HE. But this Powergrip YG-1 looks more complex inside rather than Niagara. I will try HE devices with wall connection but I hope they will be better with Powergrip too.

So I think i get a little more understanding
devices like DI-20 converts usb signal to signal suitable for dac - i2s. And it converts usb signal with its present noise(jitter).
well looks like I bought quite expensive thing just for converting signal. I was hoping it clears usb signal too.
to clear signal fron jitter I need another device. for quick search it is IFI MICRO IUSB3.0
but it is hard for me to allocate such devices from all audio variety. May be it is not their last device or not best device. What should I use for it to then not regret the choice ?
Does DI-20HE + IFI MICRO IUSB3.0(or its better analog) is right way for best sound from PC?
Or should i change DI-20HE for something better? I am not sure if something better exists


----------



## Jackula

FredA said:


> Many combinations can work. I like the two node solution where one computer decodes the data and sends it over upnp or other ethernet protocol to second (audiophile) node which just relays the well clocked bytes to the ddc. I have yet to try it.



Interesting thought, although I haven't really looked into how I can send PCM over Ethernet and another PC to relay it. 

What I have is a network node that runs Roon Core and handles connectivity to Tidal etc, it is 17m away on the other side of the house with 6 walls in between. I have done testing by adding a switch to my audio-room and the improvement is huge without, those things dish out tons of RF/EMI.

The ISO Regen is almost like my relay, it doesn't just clean up USB power, it also collects all the PCM packets over USB and then replays them at the correct timing. I tried swapping the ISO Regen for a simple USB isolator and it introduced a lot of jitter since the USB cable is over 3m long! And removing the USB isolator altogether introduced a higher noise floor. This was all before the DI-20HE, I have yet to do another test to see what combination works best, I suspect I will be able to replace my ISO Regen with a simpler cheaper device that simply helps to clean up the line noise.


----------



## Tango Sierra

The DI-20HE is almost here.

I sent payment on 28 December (USA time).
Audio-gd said the unit was ready for shipment 31 December (USA time).
DHL had possession in Hong Kong on 3 January (Hong Kong time).
I got a text today (2 January USA time) that delivery will be made Monday 6 January (USA time).

In short, I will have it in my possession nine days after paying for it. Not too bad a wait for China to Rural North Central Illinois of the USA.


----------



## FredA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> devices like DI-20 converts usb signal to signal suitable for dac - i2s. And it converts usb signal with its present noise(jitter).


Not exactly. The di can in theory remove all jitter. But some say that with a noisy/jittery usb signal, there is more  messaging done between the sender and receiver. This will produce even more noise on the usb side of the di (beside what the usb connection introduces). This noise will slightly be  transferred to the clean side somehow (?).  So those asynch usb interfaces are very good at dejittering and isolating, but helping them with a clean usb signal will give a sound quality improvement.


----------



## anroj

Tango Sierra said:


> The DI-20HE is almost here.
> 
> I sent payment on 28 December (USA time).
> Audio-gd said the unit was ready for shipment 31 December (USA time).
> ...


It was about the same timeframe for me. I ordered my DI-20 on December 19th and it arrived on December 27th to Seattle. Congratulations! You will love it.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> The di can in theory remove all jitter. But some say that with a noisy/jittery usb signal, there is more messaging done between the sender and receiver. This will produce even more noise on the usb side of the di (beside what the usb connection introduces). This noise will slightly be transferred to the clean side somehow (?). So those asynch usb interfaces are very good at dejittering and isolating, but helping them with a clean usb signal will give a sound quality improvement.


Do you mean that DI can (possibly) remove all jitter from usb and I will not need any additional device between DI and PC but if insert another one "reclocker" - it will not make worse 100%, the question is just how much(or low) its improvement will be ?

So if we speaking about adding some device between DI-20HE and PC - what it should be?
Is IFI MICRO IUSB3.0 best choise or not?


----------



## darren700 (Jan 2, 2020)

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Do you mean that DI can (possibly) remove all jitter from usb and I will not need any additional device between DI and PC but if insert another one "reclocker" - it will not make worse 100%, the question is just how much(or low) its improvement will be ?
> 
> So if we speaking about adding some device between DI-20HE and PC - what it should be?
> Is IFI MICRO IUSB3.0 best choise or not?



I would suggest the Uptone ISO Regen powered by Uptone LPS1.2
I use this setup in two different systems with both my DI-20 and DI-20HE and it is a great pairing.

My Chains look like this:

Speaker Setup
Win10 PC -->Jriver -> DLNA -> Uptone EtherRegen Switch -> Furutech CAT7 Ethernet --> SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo Streamer (Uptone LPS1.2 powered) --> Audio Sensibility Statement Silver USB --> Uptone ISO Regen (Uptone LPS1.2 Powered) --> Audio-GD DI-20 90/98 (HE-350 powered) --> Moshou 0.5mm HDMI 2.1 --> Audio-GD R2R7 (HE-350 powered) -->> SST Thoebe II Preamp (HE-350 powered) --> SST Son Of Ampzilla II --> Speakers

Headphone Setup
Win 10 PC --> Jriver -> SOTM tX-USBexp PCI-E USB Card (Mshow LPS Powered) --> Audio Sensibility Statement Silver USB --> Uptone ISO Regen (Uptone LPS1 Powered) --> Audio-GD DI-20HE 90/98 --> Moshou 0.5mm HDMI 2.1 --> Audio-GD R1 --> Audio-GD Master 9 --> Heaphones


----------



## FredA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Do you mean that DI can (possibly) remove all jitter from usb and I will not need any additional device between DI and PC but if insert another one "reclocker" - it will not make worse 100%, the question is just how much(or low) its improvement will be ?
> 
> So if we speaking about adding some device between DI-20HE and PC - what it should be?
> Is IFI MICRO IUSB3.0 best choise or not?


All i say is from experience, cleaning up the usb signal improves sound quality.

I use a usbridge signature as a player and although its output i very clean and well clocked, i put the intona isolator between it and the di20he. 

 One other simple solution is to install a software to send music over ethernet to a bridge. For intance, your pc  could run audirvana as playback sw and send the music to a usbridge configured as upnp receiver. Easy to do under Volumio. In this setup, you want you pc electrically isolated from the audio gears so that its inherent noise does not contaminate the audio gears.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

some interesting measurements for "mini cleaners" here
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-of-intona-usb-isolator-for-audio-dacs.2616/


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> One other simple solution is to install a software to send music over ethernet to a bridge. For intance, your pc could run audirvana as playback sw and send the music to a usbridge configured as upnp receiver. Easy to do under Volumio. In this setup, you want you pc electrically isolated from the audio gears so that its inherent noise does not contaminate the audio gears.


I want my computer to see a dac(or di-20) as audio output device in "Sound output devices settings" to play all sound through it not only with some music player



FredA said:


> intona isolator between it and the di20he.





darren700 said:


> Uptone ISO Regen powered by Uptone LPS1.2


Does this devices make same work? IFI nano iGalvanic3.0 is same thing?
I still need to add something like IFI MICRO IUSB3.0 to them before Di-20HE ?
How about IFI MICRO IUSB3.0 + IFI nano iGalvanic3.0 ?
my head is cracking


----------



## darren700 (Jan 2, 2020)

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I want my computer to see a dac(or di-20) as audio output device in "Sound output devices settings" to play all sound through it not only with some music player
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes the IFI Nano IGalvanic3.0 is the same type of device as the Uptone ISO Regen.

The ISO Regen is a more widely regarded USB reclocker. I do not see many people talk about the IGalvanic3.0 or IUSB3.0.
The ISO Regen does what both devices above do, but in one box instead of 2.

The ISO Regen allows you to power it with a linear power supply (like the Uptone LPS1.2 i suggested.) this way any dirty power from the computer is completely eliminated on the "Clean side" of the ISO Regen. (note computer power is used for the "Dirty Side" of it)
This clean/dirty separation provides Galvanic Isolation between your DAC and computer.

The ISO Regen uses the really good Crystek CCHD-575 clock to reclock the signal from your computer before it hits your DAC (or DI-20)

It also comes with a USPCB" USB A>B adapter so that you do not need to use a usb cable between the ISO regen and your DAC (or DI-20). with this adapter there is also a toggle switch to shut off the 5V power on the USB line going into your DAC (or DI-20)

Your computer will still see the DAC (or DI-20) as the output device.

See picture below so you can see how it is setup.
Hope this helps


----------



## FredA (Jan 4, 2020)

REAN1MAT0R said:


> some interesting measurements for "mini cleaners" here
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-of-intona-usb-isolator-for-audio-dacs.2616/


This site measures with instruments, no one is using his ears, the only instruments that really matters. So although they may have good points once in a while, they don't seem to have any listening skills. It is like a guy who has lost his sense of touch and have his wife measured by a third party instrument, if you see what i mean...


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## FredA (Jan 2, 2020)

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I want my computer to see a dac(or di-20) as audio output device in "Sound output devices settings" to play all sound through it not only with some music player


Do both. Use a player in exlusive mode when doing serious listening, go though the mixer otherwise. Normally, when you stop the player, you will have everything (you can then use a more generic player).

I am have a strong preference for the exclusive mode, as one could deduce from my previous post. 

But then again, windows does not support upnp nodes i believe.... Sorry..


----------



## FredA (Jan 3, 2020)

@Wynnytsky
Hey Victor. Today i took the intona out of the setup. Seems better without it i.e. directly  out of the usbrige signature. I noticed the intona had and issue with static electricity, which made me loose connection with the di20he..

My new favorite connection is the eas/ebu using  a 1m dh labs d110 wire. Out-of-this world good! However, i have issues with the eternal clock/spdif combination, some periodic glitch. I think my ocxo is not up to par. But i don't mind at all because sound quality is pretty much the same between internal and eternal using spdif in general.

So as it is, the external will only be used with i2s until i get a better one, if i do.


----------



## newabc (Jan 3, 2020)

I am planning to end the burning-in process of my DI-20 in 1-2 days. It has reached over 500 hours. If I kept feeding the DI-20, I thought I might not need so many burning-in hours. 300 to 400 hours is enough. I found DI-20 and C-2 need some warm-up time after power-on, too.

May I collect all the materials about SPDIF coaxial cables I posted on this thread together someday? I may have time 10 days later.


----------



## JaMo

newabc said:


> I am planning to end the burning-in process of my DI-20 in 1-2 days. It has reached over 500 hours



Don't even think of it yet! I am on 930h and Now at first, it has matured and stabilized. Have som more patience. It's worth it.
/Jan


----------



## Wynnytsky

darren700 said:


> The ISO Regen is a more widely regarded USB reclocker. I do not see many people talk about the IGalvanic3.0 or IUSB3.0.


@REAN1MAT0R I would agree with Darren, though I have yet to hear the ISO regen.  Every power or signal filter I've owned seems to solve noise at the expense of volume/dynamics/speed, and these USB accoutrements are no different.
Of the USB stuff I've owned the W4S and Intona had the lightest touch while iFi seemed to over-treat my signal, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  I've owned many wires with a bigger signature than the W4S and Intona.  And once upon a time aggressive filtering was what I needed to save me from my own poorly chosen combinations, but as things improve I'm able to back off on the filtering.

Holy smokes I can't believe how much better the DI20HE is going into the wall.  Is this unique to the HE?  Can someone with both the DI20 and DI20HE quantify these differences?


----------



## FredA

And one more. thing. Last night was my best listening night ever, i don't know how many times i have said this during the last 5-6 years. In a big part, i owe it to Kingwa, who himself must have a great ear to design such fine products. Cheers to him!


----------



## darren700

Wynnytsky said:


> @REAN1MAT0R I would agree with Darren, though I have yet to hear the ISO regen.  Every power or signal filter I've owned seems to solve noise at the expense of volume/dynamics/speed, and these USB accoutrements are no different.
> Of the USB stuff I've owned the W4S and Intona had the lightest touch while iFi seemed to over-treat my signal, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  I've owned many wires with a bigger signature than the W4S and Intona.  And once upon a time aggressive filtering was what I needed to save me from my own poorly chosen combinations, but as things improve I'm able to back off on the filtering.
> 
> Holy smokes I can't believe how much better the DI20HE is going into the wall.  Is this unique to the HE?  Can someone with both the DI20 and DI20HE quantify these differences?



The ISO Regen has only provided positive benefits in my systems, especially before getting my DI-20's it gave a big improvement with the U16 also.


Maybe try plugging the DI-20HE into one of the high current outputs of your Niagara 1200? Im surprised it is limiting the sound honestly, as when I read reviews about it they claim it does not affect dynamics like other power conditioners.

I have both the DI-20 and DI-20HE.
The DI20 is connected to a HE-350 which is plugged into the wall., I highly doubt that it would sound better into the wall vs the HE-350 in my case as I would lose the power regen of the HE-350

My DI-20HE (still burning in, around 200h now) is plugged into a APC H15 power conditioner. 
Note this is in my headphone setup (R1, ACSS. Master 9 powering balanced Audeze LCD-XC)

I just plugged it into the wall instead and didn't notice any difference personally. but keep in mind its not finished burning in and Im using a "monster" 2m power cable when plugged into wall, and audio sensibility impact se power when plugged into the APC H15.
Unfortunately my outlet is too far away from my headphone setup to compare with the same power cable.

Once my DI-20HE is finished burning in I will swap it into my speaker system and see if having the DI-20HE + HE350 is any improvement vs DI-20 + HE-350.
Im hoping there isnt much different so I can keep the DI-20HE in my headphone setup where I dont have a proper power regen.

The DI-20 will then go to my headphone setup and I will do more testing with APC H15 power vs Power outlet in the wall. I do plan on getting a nicer 2m power cable.
I am considering bypassing the APC H15 altogether for my headphone setup and using a Audio Sensibility Impact SE Power Distribution that I already have plugged into the wall.

sorry I know this isnt much help, but I hope to have some answers in the future.


----------



## Wynnytsky

darren700 said:


> Maybe try plugging the DI-20HE into one of the high current outputs of your Niagara 1200?


The Niagara 1200 has only 2 high current outlets and the tube monoblocks get those.  Maybe while I'm getting my electrical worked on I'll upgrade from 1 gang to 2 gang -- until then there's definitely no HE dac in my future.


----------



## PLGA

New update on the DI-20.

With only about 150 hs (I've been on vacations), with its internal clocks, it sounds "clearly" better than the U16.

The realism is freaking me out!  The layering of the soundstage, the tone, the texture, the dynamics, everything!

I havent ever heard music like this and Ive listened to a couple of +100k systems and a +200k one. Not even close.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R (Jan 4, 2020)

Guys many thanks for your participation and support
So
Figuring out the best usb signal transport from PC to DI-20HE by usb:
1. ISO Regen with USPCB A>B Adapter
2. + linear psu UltraCap LPS-1.2
3. with modified DC cable - but i dont know how to choose proper one
or any other linear psu is better/cheaper but not worse ?

Or some other usb isolator is better?
I found some SOTM products but i dont understand if they are for same purpose

There are 10Mhz inputs on R-7HE and DI-20HE
Should I use them or not?
If I should use them how properly connect them?
Should usb isolator have same 10mhz uotput or not?


----------



## PLGA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Guys many thanks for your participation and support
> So
> Figuring out the best usb signal transport from PC to DI-20HE by usb:
> 1. ISO Regen with USPCB A>B Adapter
> ...



The SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo is a bridge and it can be used as a Roon or Audinirvana+ end point. You connect your PC and the SMS-200 to the same home network, via Ethernet cables and a switch, and you comand the SMS-200 from the computer, but the USB signal is sent from the SMS-200 to the DI-20HE or DAC, not from the computer. It sends a MUCH cleaner USB signal (an audiophile one), so the final sound is much better.

The SMS-200 Ultra Neo (wich I have) functions the same way as the regular SMS-200, wich is much cheaper, but worse in quality sound. Another option is the Sonore Ultrarendu, wich is cheaper than the SMS-200 Ultra Neo, and I understand is similar in sound quality.

To run any of them you should buy a Linear Power Supply to get the best out of them. I have a Swagman wich is nice and not too expensive.

The SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo or the Sonore Ultrarendu plus a LPS will cost you around 1 to 1.5k plus shipping and import taxes, but considering you triple Audio-gd HE products and their potential, I think is totally worthwile.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

PLGA said:


> The SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo is a bridge and it can be used as a Roon or Audinirvana+ end point. You connect your PC and the SMS-200 to the same home network, via Ethernet cables and a switch, and you comand the SMS-200 from the computer, but the USB signal is sent from the SMS-200 to the DI-20HE or DAC, not from the computer. It sends a MUCH cleaner USB signal (an audiophile one), so the final sound is much better.
> 
> The SMS-200 Ultra Neo (wich I have) functions the same way as the regular SMS-200, wich is much cheaper, but worse in quality sound. Another option is the Sonore Ultrarendu, wich is cheaper than the SMS-200 Ultra Neo, and I understand is similar in sound quality.
> 
> ...



The point of connecting by usb or spdif is that dac will play ALL sounds that computer produces. Including sound in games, watching youtube and so on.
As I understand SOtM SMS-200 is network player only for listening music files from NAS by some configured player(program) and it can not be set as default audio output device for all computer sounds - it can not play sonds from game running on my computer. Right?


----------



## PLGA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> The point of connecting by usb or spdif is that dac will play ALL sounds that computer produces. Including sound in games, watching youtube and so on.
> As I understand SOtM SMS-200 is network player only for listening music files from NAS by some configured player(program) and it can not be set as default audio output device for all computer sounds - it can not play sonds from game running on my computer. Right?



Yes, you are correct. As far as I know it wont play movies and games from your computer, its a device developed for music.


----------



## darren700

REAN1MAT0R said:


> The point of connecting by usb or spdif is that dac will play ALL sounds that computer produces. Including sound in games, watching youtube and so on.
> As I understand SOtM SMS-200 is network player only for listening music files from NAS by some configured player(program) and it can not be set as default audio output device for all computer sounds - it can not play sonds from game running on my computer. Right?



There is a way to have the best of both worlds. Use the streamer connected to the DI-20 feeding HDMI, Coax, or Aes to your DAC. Also connect the DAC usb input directly to your computer. Simply change the DAC input to USB for games, YouTube, etc and then change to the Input with DI-20 for serious listening.


----------



## Wynnytsky

darren700 said:


> There is a way to have the best of both worlds.


In my opinion, given what @REAN1MAT0R wants from audio and where he is now, the best solution is ignoring USB, but his video cards would have to learn to share IO lanes.
As a bonus it also turns out to be the simplest and cheapest (not even a software driver install).

Most of us don't have PCIe slots.  But we have lot's of USB ports.  Black ones, blue ones, orange ones.
For us to put an ITX computer in a streacom or hdplex case is not easy or cheap, but he crossed that bridge (in spades).

Yes I think this card is overpriced, but one of my USB cables costs twice as much, so that's capitalism.
https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/bridge/69-4072-i2s-bridge.html

I would start by powering it internally via 4pin molex and take my time choosing the right LPS (Keces P3 doesn't suck)


----------



## UsoppNoKami

darren700 said:


> There is a way to have the best of both worlds. Use the streamer connected to the DI-20 feeding HDMI, Coax, or Aes to your DAC. Also connect the DAC usb input directly to your computer. Simply change the DAC input to USB for games, YouTube, etc and then change to the Input with DI-20 for serious listening.



+1 this would work well

Network to streamer with USB output to connect with DI-20. Use this for serious music listening sessions.

Computer sees direct USB cable connection to DAC for movies, gaming etc. Eg in Windows, only one Amanero USB device as sound output.

Switch input source between USB and I2S, BNC, etc on the DAC as needed


----------



## darren700 (Jan 5, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> In my opinion, given what @REAN1MAT0R wants from audio and where he is now, the best solution is ignoring USB, but his video cards would have to learn to share IO lanes.
> As a bonus it also turns out to be the simplest and cheapest (not even a software driver install).
> 
> Most of us don't have PCIe slots.  But we have lot's of USB ports.  Black ones, blue ones, orange ones.
> ...



The problem is that im pretty sure the pink faun I2S bridge doesnt support DSD, If PCM is the only goal for playback then the I2S Bridge is a good option, but still uses a PCI-E Slot.
the DI-20 would not be used in this setup.
I wonder how the Pink faun compares to the DI-20 or DI-20HE?

My Headphone setup is very similar to this but I use a USB PCI-E card instead of I2S PCI-E card. SOTM tX-USBexp (powered by Ebay 25W TALEMA Ultra-Low Noise linear power supply) this then outputs USB to the ISO Regen (LPS 1 Powered) then to DI-20HE then R1 and Master 9.
This is the best way to setup without a streamer however it requires a PCI-E port. in @REAN1MAT0R's case he does not have the ability to use a PCI-E port because that will drop his video card to a lower PCI-E speed thus sacrificing performance, which is not what you want to do in a gaming pc like his. I only have 1 video card (1080TI) so this is not a problem for me.

The way i see it @REAN1MAT0R has two options:

1. use motherboard USB output to ISO Regen (Linear PSU Powered) then DI-20 then DAC (this is still a very good setup and sounded great in my headphone rig, but the PCI-E card i recently added further improved the sound by a decent amount)
2. use a network streamer like SOTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo or Ultrarendu for serious listening connected to the DI-20 with or without a ISO Regen in-between, then connect motherboard USB to the DAC for gaming/youtube/video listening and simply switch between DAC inputs.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R (Jan 5, 2020)

darren700 said:


> There is a way to have the best of both worlds. Use the streamer connected to the DI-20 feeding HDMI, Coax, or Aes to your DAC. Also connect the DAC usb input directly to your computer. Simply change the DAC input to USB for games, YouTube, etc and then change to the Input with DI-20 for serious listening.


The problem will be when you decide to listen music while playing game)) game with lowered volume.




Wynnytsky said:


> https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/bridge/69-4072-i2s-bridge.html
> I would start by powering it internally via 4pin molex and take my time choosing the right LPS (Keces P3 doesn't suck)


Its interesting device but even without linear psu it costs more than Di-20HE ))) Comparing them I dont think pinkfaun can do conversion better and i will have to put linear psu somewhere besides pc case to power this solution.. hmm(



UsoppNoKami said:


> Network to streamer with USB output to connect with DI-20. Use this for serious music listening sessions.
> Computer sees direct USB cable connection to DAC for movies, gaming etc. Eg in Windows, only one Amanero USB device as sound output.
> Switch input source between USB and I2S, BNC, etc on the DAC as needed


I am not so serious music listener for now)
So now I prefer half way without streamer and switching dac inputs.
I need usb cleaner even with streamer so this device will be for future anyway. The question is which of them is best? Are there better options then iso regen+linear psu ?

I discovered some info about 10mhz inputs on my dac and converter
There must be device that will give them this 10mhz signal
Does this synchronizing by 10mhz improves sound quality or not?
Which 10mhz clocker do you use?
Should I look for usb cleaner with same 10mhz input to connect them three or it will not give any improvement comparing with dac and converter connection (3vs2) ? (tX-USBultra as very quich search)


----------



## newabc

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I discovered some info about 10mhz inputs on my dac and converter
> There must be device that will give them this 10mhz signal
> Does this synchronizing by 10mhz improves sound quality or not?
> Which 10mhz clocker do you use?
> Should I look for usb cleaner with same 10mhz input to connect them three or it will not give any improvement comparing with dac and converter connection (3vs2) ? (tX-USBultra as very quich search)



I am using a external OCXO clock from ebay($72-$73, the cheapest new one) and a linear power supply for 12V DC output to it. I used a 30cm long RG400 BNC cable as the clock cable. Since I am using SPDIF acss output of DI-20, I haven't found any obvious differences between this external clock and the internal 90/98 clock of DI-20. FredA said there are some differences when using I2S hdmi output of DI-20.


----------



## Wynnytsky

REAN1MAT0R said:


> it costs more than Di-20HE


di20he is $1000
i2s card is $500
I hope audio-gd makes one of these next



REAN1MAT0R said:


> i will have to put linear psu somewhere besides pc case to power this solution.. hmm(


Nope.  It accepts a 4pin molex from one of your 1500watt PSUs, but when your ready you can upgrade to 5v LPS (Uptone Audio's JS-2 works, but it's pricey)



REAN1MAT0R said:


> The problem will be when you decide to listen music while playing game)) game with lowered volume.


Critical listening while gaming.  Love it!
At the end of the day you want something with the convenience of a sound card but quality better than an Asus Essence, and unfortunately that requires IO lanes.
I would just leave windows on Direct Sound (no wasapi or ASIO) and set your default sound device to be the DI20HE (I assume you already bought it).
Then in sound control panel turn off exclusive lock and windows will share+mix audio streams.
Also, set your media playback software to use application or internal volume so that it's independent of the game's volume.
It's crazy we're entering WW3 and nobody's missing a beat on this thread.


I'm now at 300 hours and the di20se is doing great.  ACSS BNC input with 1m Belden 1694a (18awg) is very similar to COAX input with expensive graphine cable.  i2s is more different -- it's more clinical/analytical/hifi and less musical.  ACSS is "louder" like more information is getting through (the good and the bad).

Just had a VAC Super Avatar visit for an hour or two.  Holy smokes.  Now listening to a FirstWatt Aleph J.


----------



## FredA

Making abstraction of the ocxo glitch i get with spdif, with the usbridge signature and the dh labs d110 aes/ebu cable, my setup has reached an incredible level and is constantly very enjoyable. 

There is a lot air around the instruments,  the soundstage is huge, it is dynamic and smooth, the background is completely black, the layering is outstanding, it draws the best out of every recording.  It is ultimately musical too. The DI is a homerun.  Kingwa should start offering aes/ebu cables made with the  d110.


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> I am using a external OCXO clock from ebay($72-$73, the cheapest new one) and a linear power supply for 12V DC output to it. I used a 30cm long RG400 BNC cable as the clock cable. Since I am using SPDIF acss output of DI-20, I haven't found any obvious differences between this external clock and the internal 90/98 clock of DI-20. FredA said there are some differences when using I2S hdmi output of DI-20.


You get no glitch with the ocxo and spdif? Which exact unit did you buy?

With the d110 aes/ebu, i hear a small difference between the ocxo and the internal clock. Very small but enough to miss it when i switch to the internal. Same thing between the oyaide bnc and d110. I need a new clock unit, mine has glitches every 3 min. with spdif.


----------



## PLGA

FredA said:


> You get no glitch with the ocxo and spdif? Which exact unit did you buy?
> 
> With the d110 aes/ebu, i hear a small difference between the ocxo and the internal clock. Very small but enough to miss it when i switch to the internal. Same thing between the oyaide bnc and d110. I need a new clock unit, mine has glitches every 3 min. with spdif.



Hello Fred
Do you prefer the AES/EBU connection between the DI-20HE and the R7-HE over the 2.1 HDMI/I2S?

I have some 1m XLR that I could try and just got curious.

Is there any impedance or spec on the cable to consider?

Can you plug both cables AES/EBU and HDMI at the same time to swap between them and hear the differences faster, just selecting different inputs on the DAC?  Or do we have to disconnect and connect the cables everytime?


----------



## FredA (Jan 5, 2020)

PLGA said:


> Hello Fred
> Do you prefer the AES/EBU connection between the DI-20HE and the R7-HE over the 2.1 HDMI/I2S?
> 
> I have some 1m XLR that I could try and just got curious.
> ...


Hi.
I prefer aes/abu to all others. I got 1m of dh labs d110 on ebay. I soldered a set of neutrik to it. This cable is great to listen to, i can't tell about other 110ohm cables, it is the only one i tried. I2s sounds unrefined in comparison. I have got the bnc, the i2s and the aes/ebu connected at the same time, no issue. In my highly optimized and revealing setup, the d110 adds a tad of everything over bnc and i miss nothing from i2s. It is the best in every respect.


----------



## newabc (Jan 5, 2020)

FredA said:


> You get no glitch with the ocxo and spdif? Which exact unit did you buy?
> 
> With the d110 aes/ebu, i hear a small difference between the ocxo and the internal clock. Very small but enough to miss it when i switch to the internal. Same thing between the oyaide bnc and d110. I need a new clock unit, mine has glitches every 3 min. with spdif.



I bought this clock, I haven't found any glitch from it with Teradak DC-30 12VDC output:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHz-OCXO...061896?hash=item2ab0562488:g:DDYAAOSwlOJbWzlf

The lowest price of this item used to be $72, so anyone can make an buyer's offer near that price tag.

BTW, someone said Kingwa was using a $14 OCXO when developing DI-20. I don't think he met glitch issue, too.


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> I bought this clock, I haven't found any glitch from it with Teradak DC-30 12VDC output:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHz-OCXO...061896?hash=item2ab0562488:g:DDYAAOSwlOJbWzlf
> 
> The lowest price of this item used to be $72, so anyone can make an buyer's offer near that price tag.


Thanks. I will likely order one. Do you have an audio--gd dac too?


----------



## newabc

FredA said:


> Thanks. I will likely order one. Do you have an audio--gd dac too?


Yes, a 4-pieces 1704 DAC from audio-gd, from year 2013: ref5.32.


----------



## FredA (Jan 6, 2020)

I ordered another unit with a single output using the same chinese Dapu ocxo i had. I like the sound. Just hope this one will last.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

newabc said:


> I am using a external OCXO clock from ebay($72-$73, the cheapest new one) and a linear power supply for 12V DC output to it. I used a 30cm long RG400 BNC cable as the clock cable. Since I am using SPDIF acss output of DI-20, I haven't found any obvious differences between this external clock and the internal 90/98 clock of DI-20. FredA said there are some differences when using I2S hdmi output of DI-20.


As I suppose external clock generator must be better then internal
Semms like 75$ clock is not best solution



Wynnytsky said:


> di20he is $1000
> i2s card is $500


I thought I should use full option for 1600$
Anyway I need external device

What clock gen would you choose for R-7HE and DI-20HE ?
May be some usb regen with 10mhz input is better then iso regen? Like SOTM tX-USBultra with some external clocker or combo of Mutec MC3+ USB with Mutec REF 10 ?
it is so difficult for those who understand for the first time


----------



## newabc

REAN1MAT0R said:


> As I suppose external clock generator must be better then internal
> Semms like 75$ clock is not best solution



You can try a ocxo clock with GPS correction(search "ocxo" and "gps" in ebay), more advanced and accurate than a single ocxo module. I do believe an industrial clock will output correct 10Mhz signal.


----------



## newabc

FredA said:


> Thanks. I will likely order one. Do you have an audio--gd dac too?


Have you tested your linear power supply? Sometime the problem is on the LPS.
And the clock should output sine wave signal to the DI-20, not square wave.


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> Have you tested your linear power supply? Sometime the problem is on the LPS.
> And the clock should output sine wave signal to the DI-20, not square wave.


Both the sine and square should work. I use sine anyway. I will give a switching wallwart i have a try but i think it has been done already. Thanks.


----------



## FredA

The issue is with the fact the ocxo has sharp ponctual  peeks with power consumption.. It still occurs with the wallwart,  just had 3-4 occurences of the issue. The unit i have supposedly could work with 12v/1a but did not. I needed 2A for it to come alive. So the ocxo unit has an issue.

About the price spent on the ocxo, only long-term reliability should justify spending more than i did, cause the improvement potential is small. Don't forget my dac reclocks using inferior xos, at least on paper. As for the gps feature, it by itself does not help with sound quality. What does is the quality of the circuit feeding the ocxo and the crystal. So paying more for a unit that includes better regulation is a good idea, just don't pay more the gps antenna. The best units out there meant for audio don't have the gps feature. What matter is phase noise, not long-term frequency accuracy.

If you have an old audio-gd dac that works in synch mode using i2s like the master 7, the ocxo could have more effect but it remains to be tested cause the dac does itself introduce phase noise.


----------



## DACLadder

I have to agree with @FredA!  AES/EBU sounds great driven by the DI20HE.  My R7 doesn't have AES/EBU input so I plugged up the S7 (factory M7S) running DSDCLK firmware.  I2S sounds a little grainy by comparison. AES/EBU beats ACSS SPDIF by a touch.  Using internal clocks on the DI.


----------



## Pappas3278

Little advice needed.

Would you use your best power cord with the DI20 or the DAC that it is attached to?

-Mike


----------



## FredA

Pappas3278 said:


> Little advice needed.
> 
> Would you use your best power cord with the DI20 or the DAC that it is attached to?
> 
> -Mike


The dac i guess. It draws more juice. At least, the heaviest gauge should be on the dac. Both have to have good shielding ideally.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Pappas3278 said:


> Would you use your best power cord with the DI20 or the DAC that it is attached to?



For me the interface was more reactive to the cord.
My DAC has a 2ft 9awg and the di20he has a 6ft 13awg -- I wouldn't go skinnier than that on the interface.
Will try swapping the 6ft for an 8ft version now.


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 7, 2020)

My DI-20HE arrived yesterday (Friday) when the DHL driver set the package on my front porch at 11:15 and honked his horn as he pulled out of my driveway.  I set the box on a living room table to acclimate to the indoor climate for a few hours before opening to prevent condensation from forming inside the winter cold DDC.  At 12:15 the mailman dropped off a box of various cables from Audio Sensibility to add to the many cables I already have from this company. It wasn't until late afternoon that I was able to start rearranging a few shelves in order to fit the DI-20 into my system and finally connected and powered up the unit somewhere between 5 and 6 PM. I told myself that I would wait at least 100 hours (this coming Friday afternoon)  before peeking in to have just a little listen. Well, I'm proud of myself to say I actually lasted five hours.

A well broken-in AS Statement USB cable connects my Aurender N100H Server/Player to the DI-20HE. Between the Audio-gd DDC and my Master 7 Singularity are an AES/EBU cable, an RCA-RCA coaxial cable, a BNC-BNC coaxial cable, all Statement OCC silver cables from Audio Sensibility plus a DH Labs 0.5 meter HDMI silver-plated OCC copper cable. All my gear is connected to a Furman IT-20 Reference power conditioner using all Audio Sensibility Statement OCC copper Power cables. The AES/EBU and BNC/BNC coaxial cables are brand new so those may require some burn-in time.

At this point, I can't hear very much difference with the AES/EBU or coaxial cables. The cables may need time to burn-in and I need time to assess the subtle differences of the SQ.  It is a much different story for the HDMI I2S connection. Holy Hi-Fi Batman, the difference was immediately obvious. It takes a jazz, blues or rock studio recording and makes it sound like a live performance with the listener sitting in the VIP section. Great imaging and separation. I am now listening to a recording of a concert performance of On The Radio by Cheap Trick and now it is so much more alive than before. I am 72 years old and even when I was young I couldn't dance but earlier a 24/96 remix of Bonnie Raitt's I Will Not be Denied had me moving around in my chair. The MFSL remix of Muddy Waters' Good Morning Little Schoolgirl from the Folk Singer album gave me goosebumps. Brubeck's Blue Rondo a La Turk, Cannonball Adderley's Dancing In The Dark, Art Pepper's Holiday Flight, Holding Back The Years by Little Jimmy Scott, Gerry Mulligan's For An Unfinished Woman, jazz music I have long enjoyed has something new to offer me.  I thought orchestral recordings were great already but now that old cliche rears its ugly head, I heard things I never heard before in those great classical concert halls.

It may be a tad rough sounding now waiting for burn-in improvement.  The 500-hour mark will be 23 January and the 1,000-hour mark happens 13 February.

Tomorrow I will take the DDC out of the chain and check back in every few days.


----------



## JaMo

Tango Sierra said:


> Well, I'm proud of myself to say I actually lasted five hours.



Ha ha..  The DI20-HE is a piece of art but it need some patience. The first hours are fantastic followed by a less glowing period...but that magic comes back
/Jan


----------



## FredA

@Tango Sierra Congrats! Passed 500 hours, burn in is mostly done. I am burning the usbridge signature now so i still have slight sound fluctuations by i believe my di has reached maturity at passed 650 hours. You will need a fully burned unit to pick your favorite output. The differences are quite subtle but there and they make a difference.

Thanks for mentioning these jazz albums, always looking for good ones.


----------



## hifiks

Is it possible to improve the digital signal of a CD player with the Di20 via SPIDF? 
I haven't read about it here in the forum. 
Thanks a lot!


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 7, 2020)

@hifiks Placing the DI-20 between your CD player and an external DAC might give you some improvement depending on the DAC. If you don't have an external DAC the DI-20 won't work with your CD player because the DI-20 doesn't have an analog stage or outputs.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> I am burning the usbridge signature now


Can you set this usbridge as default audio output device in windows for all sounds output through it?


----------



## FredA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Can you set this usbridge as default audio output device in windows for all sounds output through it?


Windows has to support upnp or airplay. Under Volumio (installed on the usbridge), you have both options. Anyone using upnp on Windows?


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> Windows has to support upnp or airplay. Under Volumio (installed on the usbridge), you have both options. Anyone using upnp on Windows?


I mean does it appears in this settings as option for default sound output?







Guys
One question is in my head
DI-20HE recives usb signal, reclock it by its Accusilicon 90/98M and converts to i2s
but Ping Faun i2s bridge has ultra oxco clock as an option. It have no need to convert from usb signal - it makes i2s initialy. If pink Fauns "ultra ocxo" clock is better then Di-20HE internal clock.. may be we does not need Di-20 at all ?


----------



## Tango Sierra




----------



## Wynnytsky

the latest driver for the DI20 is the same one from 2017 used for the DACs built in USB (which is cool if you want to use both USB ports)

 
(not sure why headfi thumbnail is 2x bigger than orig screen shot)



REAN1MAT0R said:


> may be we does not need Di-20 at all ?


as wonderful as the PinkFaun is, it can only do up to PCM 24/192 (maybe an asio4all driver will do DSD?)
24 192 is great on games, blueray, and all streaming, but if you want your monster computer to upsample to DSD256 and DSD512 then you'll have to use both the DI20 and I2S (that's too high for the other digital outputs).

Even with my DI20HE, my favorite sound is without software upsampling (NOS = non over sampling), and when I do listen to DSD I have my media player down-sample to PCM24192 (a Dirac limitation), so PinkFaun will be perfect for me.  But I still don't have an audio computer with PCIe!  I'm waiting for AMD to release a Zen3 APU that is 25 or 35 TDP and the single slot on the mini-itx will get the PinkFaun.  For a little extra I got two i2s outputs on my PinkFaun so I can A/B dacs.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

Tango Sierra said:


>



What is this on the bottom ?


----------



## FredA

A PinkFaun with ocxo will not necessarily beat the di. Moreover, the di seems even better with aes/ebu than with i2s. With an audio-gd dac, aes/ebu seems to be the way to go. At least AFAIK now.  Time will tell.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> I have to agree with @FredA!  AES/EBU sounds great driven by the DI20HE
> ...
> I2S sounds a little grainy by comparison.



I think my BNC cable is on the crap side of the spectrum because it's exhausting my ears to the point that I have to retreat to I2S to give my ears a break (my i2s is far cleaner with less embellishment).  It's funny cause I2S used to exhaust me and and coax would give my ears some recovery time.

If these first world problems keep piling up I'll need to make a fundme page.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> I think my BNC cable is on the crap side of the spectrum because it's exhausting my ears to the point that I have to retreat to I2S to give my ears a break (my i2s is far cleaner with less embellishment).  It's funny cause I2S used to exhaust me and and coax would give my ears some recovery time.
> 
> If these first world problems keep piling up I'll need to make a fundme page.


Leave  both connected and come back later to spdif. Initially, i prefered i2s also.


----------



## Tango Sierra

@REAN1MAT0R 
That is a Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista Vinyl phono stage.

https://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/nu-vista/nu-vista-vinyl


----------



## jimmychan

Still find the i2s output of DI20HE to be best SQ for R7.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jan 8, 2020)

Can someone explain the value of this device.

My computer like all computers is full of noise and jitter.  So this device gets rid of all that and corrects it- great.

However my R7HE if fed direct from my computer does the same.  It also has galvanic isolation.  It also has reclocking and it also has a regenerative power supply.

In addition- whatever corrections the DI-20HE makes will be at least partially ruined through the HDMI or spdif cable.  Every cable damages a little with reflections or added jitter.

The best place to reclock is in the dac itself where there is NO CABLE to harm the corrections which were made.  I see no value to doing this process twice...


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Can someone explain the value of this device.
> 
> My computer like all computers is full of noise and jitter.  So this device gets rid of all that and corrects it- great.
> 
> ...


The proof of the pudding is in the listening. Dejittering can’t be perfect and all dacs benefit from some help.


----------



## Jackula (Jan 8, 2020)

A friend recently lent me his Van Den Hul Flat HEAC HDMI cable to try, vs the Moshou flat 8K HDMI, the VDH was more balanced and a bit faster. I mentioned previously the R7HE treble is a bit fatiguing particularly with Joan of Arc (Jennifer Warnes), no longer the case with VDH as my HDMI. However the soundstage and imaging wasn't as good as the Moshou, probably because they don't make them in 0.5m, so longer cable = more jitter.

Then speaking to Kingwa he recommended me to try his favourite HDMI cable, the WireWorld Chroma7. Kingwa wasn't wrong with his recommendation, the Chroma7 is the best of both worlds, it doesn't sound overly sharp, it has the speed and balance of the VDH and the soundstage accuracy of the Moshou.


----------



## Genna

rsbrsvp said:


> Can someone explain the value of this device.
> 
> My computer like all computers is full of noise and jitter.  So this device gets rid of all that and corrects it- great.
> 
> ...




I start streaming music files with a Macbook or LattePanda (Win10 Singleboardcomputer) too but to avoid noise and jitter I bought finally a streamer bridge because I want a clean signal and my previous experiences says that a fish always starts to stink on the head and not on the tail. Since yesterday a proud R-7HE and HE-1 owner and yes, as next a DI-20HE is on my list.

To your question about the benefits of the DI...you are right saying the R-7HE does the same but I I explain it by another example. At the airport or concert we don‘t need the various points for tickets, luggage or security check also. It‘s possible to handle everything with one gate...can you imagine the additional effort to be accomplished, especially when an irritated, stressed and aggressive group of tourists appears (bad usb signal)? This is your situation with only the R-7HE fed directly from your computer without a external help from the DI. I prefer the actually situation at the airports or concerts with separated gates that ensure a more pleasant and unstressed process. I believe the R7 HE also and this is why I read more and more about a better SQ with a DI.


----------



## PLGA

rsbrsvp said:


> Can someone explain the value of this device.
> 
> My computer like all computers is full of noise and jitter.  So this device gets rid of all that and corrects it- great.
> 
> ...



Well, that's what I thought also and then, but as Fred said, the proof is listening. I've got a different idea when I tried them, so I started investing on DDC, digital cables and software.

First I've got the computer connected directly, via USB, to my R8 DAC (with isolated Amanero USB input). Then, I tried the Wyred4Sound USB Reclocker (RUR) and it made a nice difference, then the RUR improved with a LPS, then I've got the Gustard U16 and it was another good step up, then the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo (wich is also VERY good) and then the DI-20, wich is GREAT, even with few hours of burning time. Next step, I will try Curious Evolved USB cable between the SMS-200 and the DI-20. Even better power cables made a nice difference on my digital gear.

With out wanting to know all of the technical issues on computers, jitter, clocks, noise, etc. for me computer USB signal is crap, may be with some few exceptions, wich I havent heard.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@Jackula my first i2s cable was a 0.3M WireWorld silver starlight 5.2 10.2gbps.  I think it was only $50 on ebay so I think I got B-stock.  The heft of this cable is impressive but to this day it is the worst digital interconnect I've ever used (worse than monoprice hdmi), so if anyone wants it you need only pay shipping.  Assuming I got a bad apple I wouldn't mind trying WireWorld again but first I'd like to give Belden's 28awg bonded HDMI wire a chance for $20.

I found this an interesting read -- sure enough I don't see AudioQuest or WireWorld in the list.
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/where-does-hdmi-cable-come-from.htm?hdmidept
The interconnects and speaker connects I bought from here some years back didn't win any points with me so I'm not expecting much from the HDMI.

BTW
I've got the first one and I sure like it.  Series 8 just came out...
​


----------



## Wynnytsky

PLGA said:


> Curious Evolved USB


I've had 3 of the 0.2m yellow ones.  The best thing about them is how much zing they add, which is immediately evident, and the next best thing is how fast+easy they sell.  But nobody could live with those little guys.  Now I see the shortest length is 0.8m so I'm very _curious_ to hear your day1 and day30 impressions.

The w4s recovery has been good to me.  It's the only thing I bought-sold-bought.

investing in audio -- makes me smile every time I hear it
More like our education was the investment and these wires are the dividends.


----------



## PLGA

Wynnytsky said:


> I've had 3 of the 0.2m yellow ones.  The best thing about them is how much zing they add, which is immediately evident, and the next best thing is how fast+easy they sell.  But nobody could live with those little guys.  Now I see the shortest length is 0.8m so I'm very _curious_ to hear your day1 and day30 impressions.
> 
> The w4s recovery has been good to me.  It's the only thing I bought-sold-bought.
> 
> ...



Yes, investing in audio!   I have to stop so I can feed my kids!  

Thank you for your opinon on the Curious USB cable. This company is very good with customer service (so far so good). They have made me a 0.4m long cable with a 90 degress twist on one end to fit exactly between my SMS-200 and my DI-20. The cable its coming in the next weeks. My expectations are high, we'll see.


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Jan 12, 2020)

Jackula said:


> A friend recently lent me his Van Den Hul Flat HEAC HDMI cable to try, vs the Moshou flat 8K HDMI, the VDH was more balanced and a bit faster. I mentioned previously the R7HE treble is a bit fatiguing particularly with Joan of Arc (Jennifer Warnes), no longer the case with VDH as my HDMI. However the soundstage and imaging wasn't as good as the Moshou, probably because they don't make them in 0.5m, so longer cable = more jitter.
> 
> Then speaking to Kingwa he recommended me to try his favourite HDMI cable, the WireWorld Chroma7. Kingwa wasn't wrong with his recommendation, the Chroma7 is the best of both worlds, it doesn't sound overly sharp, it has the speed and balance of the VDH and the soundstage accuracy of the Moshou.



For HDMI, i have the Chroma 7 in 0.3m, Ultraviolet 7 in 0.6m and Starlight in 0.3m.  Using the latter currently for IIS with my R7HE, no complaints. I also really like how BNC ACSS into my Master-11S sounds, currently using cheap Belden 4794R BNC.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R (Jan 8, 2020)

Jackula said:


> Then speaking to Kingwa he recommended me to try his favourite HDMI cable, the WireWorld Chroma7. Kingwa wasn't wrong with his recommendation, the Chroma7 is the best of both worlds, it doesn't sound overly sharp, it has the speed and balance of the VDH and the soundstage accuracy of the Moshou.


Is your Moshou hdmi 2.1 or not? Optical or not?
WireWorld Chroma7 has not high price I wonder
Could you ask Kingwa about his favorite usb cable please? I am choosing now) need one for three meters long


----------



## Jackula

UsoppNoKami said:


> For HDMI, i have the Chroma 7 in 0.3m, Ultraviolet 7 in 0.6m and Starlight in 0.3m.  Using the latter currently for IIS with my R7HE, no complaints. I also really like how BNC ACSS into my Master-11S sounds, currently using cheap Belden 4694R BNC.



Thanks, now you've gotten me interested in Starlight but I'm having a hard time finding them in 0.3m, they seem to have discontinued it. 

@REAN1MAT0R Kingwa did say USB cables didn't make much difference to him. Moshou 8K is HDMI 2.1, it's not optical, you really only start to need optical from 15m onwards. For carrying I2S, you'll want to stay under 1m.


----------



## FredA

Just ordered a Blue Jeans Cables series-fe 0.3m to try it. Cheap, nothing to loose.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

Jackula said:


> Kingwa did say USB cables didn't make much difference to him. Moshou 8K is HDMI 2.1, it's not optical, you really only start to need optical from 15m onwards. For carrying I2S, you'll want to stay under 1m.


This MOSHOU hdmi 2.1 is not optical
but this MOUSHOU hdmi 2.1 IS optical

Everybody say usb cable does matter
But how we cant trust to Kingwa


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Just ordered a Blue Jeans Cables series-fe 0.3m to try it. Cheap, nothing to loose.


I got the 0.6m



REAN1MAT0R said:


> Everybody say usb cable does matter
> But how we cant trust to Kingwa


when my system was crappy, the only thing that made a difference was the volume button
when the system was around $5k then I heard speaker cables, interconnects, and USB cables
and when I upgraded from 87dB to 105db speaker efficiency then the power cables were talking to me, I could hear the difference in footers, and also that fidelizer tool.


----------



## FredA (Jan 8, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> I got the 0.6m



As good as some say, Victor?

[edit] what an idiot i am, you just mentioned ordering it, i got the idea from you! 

I only got the 0.3 cause i could not get the 0.6m from amazon.ca. Otherwise i had to pay 25$ in shipping ordering from BJC... 

The bounded wire pair makes sense to me. But again,  d-110 from dh lahs uses a twisted pair which works very well. We'll see. For hdmi, there is a form of parallel transmission involved so having the most equal overall charactistics for the 4 lines is mandatory.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I predict my 1.0m audioquest vodka will beat the bluejean because the vodka is from China and so is my r2r7 (in theory nothing would be lost in translation)

I'm fortunate my r2r7 doesn't have an AES input -- one less variable to my balancing act


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

Wynnytsky said:


> I predict my 1.0m audioquest vodka will beat the bluejean because the vodka is from China and so is my r2r7 (in theory nothing would be lost in translation)


sorry but I am from Russia
and vodka is from Russia
vodka is already beating Russia
and will beat China


----------



## FredA (Jan 8, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> I predict my 1.0m audioquest vodka will beat the bluejean because the vodka is from China and so is my r2r7 (in theory nothing would be lost in translation)
> 
> I'm fortunate my r2r7 doesn't have an AES input -- one less variable to my balancing act


Replacing the rca by aes/ebu is a rather simple task with some soldering skills. But in the end, either bnc/balanced/hdmi can work, it's a matter of finding the right cable.


----------



## Wynnytsky

REAN1MAT0R said:


> sorry but I am from Russia
> and vodka is from Russia
> vodka is already beating Russia
> and will beat China



I tried my hand at being silly and @REAN1MAT0R one upped me, in what I assume is his second (or third) language.


----------



## Monsterzero

Wynnytsky said:


> I got the 0.6m
> 
> 
> when my system was crappy, the only thing that made a difference was the volume button
> ...



This!
I recently upgraded to a FTA Callisto USB cable and the difference blew my mind. Its not cheap,but its trouncing other USB cables costing upwards of 3-4k.

EDIT: Im not using the di in my system,so YMMV.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Monsterzero said:


> 3-4k


3-4x?

My two USB cables also have scary retail prices.  When you spend $1500+ on your USB chain, then it's hard to ignore the pinkfaun.


----------



## Monsterzero

Wynnytsky said:


> 3-4x?
> 
> My two USB cables also have scary retail prices.  When you spend $1500+ on your USB chain, then it's hard to ignore the pinkfaun.


 I have no experience with $4k USB cables,but after reading comments made by guys who have,and own systems costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars,this is their position. Check out this thread....and notice some of the gear in their signatures. Crazy $$$$$.


----------



## newabc (Jan 9, 2020)

The audio-gd DACs and DIs' USB modules do NOT need the power from USB port. So others disable the "+" pin of a USB cable can improve the data signal quality.
Can anyone describe what characters of a USB cable for DI-20 can improve the data signal quality and decrease the jitter?

I may suggest
(1) Disable "+";
(2) shielding the 2 power lines and 2 data lines separately (like the cable based on Belden 8723_) or separate the power lines and data lines(like the USB-B to 2 USB-A Y-Cable_).

I can remember years ago when Audio-gd's DACs were using USB32 modules, someone asked what kind of USB cable was recommended in Kingwa's web forum and Kingwa said the stock usb cable is ok because the USB32 module disabled the power "+" input in the module.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@Monsterzero
well I'm guessing my friend has the $3k Galileo UEF in between his Aurender N10 and EMM labs dac2x.  I should give it a listen, though it's a listen-but-don't-touch system so there's no way to pick apart what's contributing what.

Wow your Atlantic has EL34 driver tubes?  I had a cheaper Atlantic hear a few weeks ago.  No surprise it nailed the human voice in a way only tubes can do, but it also had an abysmally low noise floor akin to a 9038 chipped dac.


----------



## Monsterzero

Yes,the first thing I noticed when I demo'd the TRP was the ultra black background. Then the massive imaging,naturalness of the sound,etc...Eight thousand dollars I own one. 

It can take the EL34s,6L6,KT66,Kt77 among others. Heres a rundown of the tube shootout one member did.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/lampizator-golden-atlantic-trp.27809/page-4#post-578748


----------



## Monsterzero

Wynnytsky said:


> @Monsterzero
> well I'm guessing my friend has the $3k Galileo UEF in between his Aurender N10 and EMM labs dac2x.  I should give it a listen, though it's a listen-but-don't-touch system so there's no way to pick apart what's contributing what.
> 
> Wow your Atlantic has EL34 driver tubes?  I had a cheaper Atlantic hear a few weeks ago.  No surprise it nailed the human voice in a way only tubes can do, but it also had an abysmally low noise floor akin to a 9038 chipped dac.


 Did you by chance get to try the Atlantic you had with the DI? Ive been told the USB implmntation on the TRP is quite good,but cant help but wondr if the DI would be an improvement.


----------



## Wynnytsky

No my DI20HE arrived a week later.  In the next week or two I'll visit my friend with the lampi and bring my DI.  I'll post a pic with my review


----------



## FredA

Hey @soundlogic  ! 

What has been cooking?  The di20he, i hope.. Any improvement?


----------



## soundlogic

Hi Fred, thanks for inquiring. I am at the 575ish mark regarding hours. There has been a noticeable improvement, but I have been doing very little critical listening lately. I am noticing an anomaly that I have no idea of it’s origin: every so often...maybe 3-5-10 minutes apart, I will experience a 2-3 second moment of a very noticeable “out of phase” sound. It sounds like the whole sonic picture goes wacky and the soundstage becomes extremely diffuse and out of focus. It’s extremely annoying. I’ve just sort of chalked up to break-in, but I figured that after 500 hours, should have stooped. I have the HE plugged into my PS Audio P20 regenerator which may be a mistake. When I get time, I will try plugging into the wall, or into one of the high current outlets on the P10. I exclusively using the hdmi out of the DI, as that is the reason I purchased it. The PSA Directstream Dac I use is optimized for I2s input. I have mentioned this before, but so far, I had a much better experience with my U16. And if I cannot get the DI to at least match, or out-perform the Gustard, I will sell the Audio GD. It’s not encouraging to me when I read that some on this thread prefer the other non hdmi outs...which is a non starter for me. I have an Auralic Aries G2 as my source, and I can assure that it is a worthy source. Has anyone else experienced the random out of phase glitches?


----------



## FredA

I have the same glitch, but i think it is the ocxo. I noticed the issue is less frequent when the clock has been running for only a few hours.

The audio-gd is picky with ref clocks, the pll seems very tight. But then again, the u16 would start playing pink noise once in a while using the same clock...

So my guess is the di20 needs an excellent clock. Kingwa might add a pll setting in the future.  In between the glitches , the improvements brought by the external clock is greater then with the u16.

Too bad the di does not work for you...


----------



## Wynnytsky

soundlogic said:


> When I get time, I will try plugging into the wall, or into one of the high current outlets on the P10.


There was a cleanwave button on my P3.  Out of curiosity is there any diff in running with it on and off?  I'm not even sure if that function applies to the high current outlets.

@FredA 
I got the Belden HDMI today.  I'll let it break in a bit before swapping the vodka back in.
I got it in white because after seeing the pic of @UsoppNoKami 's wires I realized my wiring lacked diversity.


----------



## PLGA

Well, for me the DI-20 is a clear upgrade against the U16. 

On the other hand, I've just tried on the DI-20 the HDMI I2S and the AES/EBU outputs. All the system remained the same during the test, just switching inputs on my R8 DAC with both cables connected. The cables used were a 2.1 HDMI 8K 0.3m long chinese cable (I think the one @FredA recommended) and a fake chinese Nordost Odin XLR 1m long cable (wich I must say also sounds very nice as XLR).

Well, the AES/EBU input was a clear winner, as @FredA and @DACLadder anticipated. What I noticed the most was improved instrument separation and 3D pin point image. Bass was also better. Staying for now with the AES/EBU cable. Thank you for the advice!


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> There was a cleanwave button on my P3.  Out of curiosity is there any diff in running with it on and off?  I'm not even sure if that function applies to the high current outlets.
> 
> @FredA
> I got the Belden HDMI today.  I'll let it break in a bit before swapping the vodka back in.
> I got it in white because after seeing the pic of @UsoppNoKami 's wires I realized my wiring lacked diversity.


 Also got an Oyaide usb cable today. Cheap and raving reviews. Looking forward to your feedback on the Belden hdmi.


----------



## Genna

FredA said:


> I have the same glitch, but i think it is the ocxo. I noticed the issue is less frequent when the clock has been running for only a few hours.
> 
> The audio-gd is picky with ref clocks, the pll seems very tight. But then again, the u16 would start playing pink noise once in a while using the same clock...
> 
> ...



Have you connected your Aries G2 to the DI via HDMI?


----------



## FredA

Genna said:


> Have you connected your Aries G2 to the DI via HDMI?


I don't have the Aries g2.


----------



## Genna

FredA said:


> I have the same glitch, but i think it is the ocxo. I noticed the issue is less frequent when the clock has been running for only a few hours.
> 
> The audio-gd is picky with ref clocks, the pll seems very tight. But then again, the u16 would start playing pink noise once in a while using the same clock...
> 
> ...





FredA said:


> I don't have the Aries g2.



Sorry, I‘ve quoted you instead of soundlogic!


----------



## Genna

soundlogic said:


> Hi Fred, thanks for inquiring. I am at the 575ish mark regarding hours. There has been a noticeable improvement, but I have been doing very little critical listening lately. I am noticing an anomaly that I have no idea of it’s origin: every so often...maybe 3-5-10 minutes apart, I will experience a 2-3 second moment of a very noticeable “out of phase” sound. It sounds like the whole sonic picture goes wacky and the soundstage becomes extremely diffuse and out of focus. It’s extremely annoying. I’ve just sort of chalked up to break-in, but I figured that after 500 hours, should have stooped. I have the HE plugged into my PS Audio P20 regenerator which may be a mistake. When I get time, I will try plugging into the wall, or into one of the high current outlets on the P10. I exclusively using the hdmi out of the DI, as that is the reason I purchased it. The PSA Directstream Dac I use is optimized for I2s input. I have mentioned this before, but so far, I had a much better experience with my U16. And if I cannot get the DI to at least match, or out-perform the Gustard, I will sell the Audio GD. It’s not encouraging to me when I read that some on this thread prefer the other non hdmi outs...which is a non starter for me. I have an Auralic Aries G2 as my source, and I can assure that it is a worthy source. Has anyone else experienced the random out of phase glitches?



Have you connected your Aries G2 to the DI via HDMI?


----------



## soundlogic

"There was a cleanwave button on my P3. Out of curiosity is there any diff in running with it on and off? I'm not even sure if that function applies to the high current outlets."

The "clean wave" function is a degausser of sorts.

"Have you connected your Aries G2 to the DI via HDMI?"

The Aries G2 has an HDMI input, but it is not the I2s protocol, but a "Aurilac specific" connection for their high-end re-clocker. Also, the DI is I2s out only, not input.
I find it odd and disconcerting that another member here is experiencing the same "phase glitch" that I am hearing, and even more so that it could be caused by an external clock. I am using the Gustard C16, which is by no means a Mutec REF-10 ( which I just sold), but I would believe it might perform somewhat better than many of the lower end Ebay versions.


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> "There was a cleanwave button on my P3. Out of curiosity is there any diff in running with it on and off? I'm not even sure if that function applies to the high current outlets."
> 
> The "clean wave" function is a degausser of sorts.
> 
> ...


I have odered another clock to see if the glitch remains. My hypothesis is the oven itself is the cause. In the cheaper units, used ocxos are utiized.


----------



## Genna

soundlogic said:


> The Aries G2 has an HDMI input...the DI is I2s out only, not input.



Thank you for the explanation, I had not thought that the Aries G2 has in only (on the pics of the backpanel looks like a out) and the DI has out only. 


I apologize in advance for the OT but want to avoid misinformations on my part...


soundlogic said:


> a "Aurilac specific" connection for their high-end re-clocker.



I know Auralic‘s „Lightning Link“ but I had understand that the L-Link from Aries G2 is designed only for the Vega G2 DAC and it’s not possible to connect the Master clock Leo GX (or other master clock devices) to the Aries G2 directly without the Vega G2. This was one of the reason why I bought the Aries G1 instead G2.


----------



## FredA

Who is using the di with external clock without issue here, and are you on 240V or 120V?


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> Hi Fred, thanks for inquiring. I am at the 575ish mark regarding hours. There has been a noticeable improvement, but I have been doing very little critical listening lately. I am noticing an anomaly that I have no idea of it’s origin: every so often...maybe 3-5-10 minutes apart, I will experience a 2-3 second moment of a very noticeable “out of phase” sound. It sounds like the whole sonic picture goes wacky and the soundstage becomes extremely diffuse and out of focus. It’s extremely annoying. I’ve just sort of chalked up to break-in, but I figured that after 500 hours, should have stooped. I have the HE plugged into my PS Audio P20 regenerator which may be a mistake. When I get time, I will try plugging into the wall, or into one of the high current outlets on the P10. I exclusively using the hdmi out of the DI, as that is the reason I purchased it. The PSA Directstream Dac I use is optimized for I2s input. I have mentioned this before, but so far, I had a much better experience with my U16. And if I cannot get the DI to at least match, or out-perform the Gustard, I will sell the Audio GD. It’s not encouraging to me when I read that some on this thread prefer the other non hdmi outs...which is a non starter for me. I have an Auralic Aries G2 as my source, and I can assure that it is a worthy source. Has anyone else experienced the random out of phase glitches?


Have you tried i2s with serial mode (di settings)?


----------



## anroj

FredA said:


> Who is using the di with external clock without issue here, and are you on 240V or 120V?


I amusing the DI-20 with my Gustard C16 and I have not had any issues.


----------



## DACLadder (Jan 11, 2020)

I have the same 'glitch' issue using external clock and parallel data processing.  Have been silent waiting on another OCXO to arrive but since others are reporting so will I.  Happens on I2S, SPDIF, or AES/EBU.  Are we all running the same DI firmware??????

I am using Oscilloquartz OCXO with a +12.5V power supply voltage.  120V AC fed by Furman 15i Elite.  I have tried OCXO power supplies, cables - various lengths and 50ohm attenuators.  Process of elimination!  Since I can't swap DIs my only other course is to try a different 10M clock.

I am not too excited as I don't think the external clock is unlocking and relocking.  I see no indication on the DI front panel of bad clock.  So if I still have the 'glitch' with a different external clock I will report to Kingwa. 

My description of the 'glitch' is every few minutes (but can go a long time before experiencing) is the left channel will dropout followed by the right channel.  It is sort of like analog tape dropout at the outset.  And experience out of phase sound for brief second mainly in the right channel as sound corrects.  Happens fast and brief.

My DI20HE works perfectly on internal clocks or even serial data processing and external clock.  Only external clock and parallel data processing is where I hear a glitch.


----------



## FredA (Jan 11, 2020)

For me, with the external, only the i2s out in serial mode works perfectly.


----------



## PLGA

Are there different firmwares for the DIs?

Really? This fast?


----------



## JaMo (Jan 11, 2020)

FredA said:


> Who is using the di with external clock without issue here, and are you on 240V or 120V?



I have one of the very first DI20-HE (240V50Hz) delivered.(1130h on it now) I have no issues using parallell setting and ext XO without any issues. I feed the R7 (parallell DoP fw) via HDMI/I2S, AES/EBU, ACSS SPDIF. All works perfectly.
/Jan


----------



## FredA

@PLGA 

No firmware yet available. But Kingwa may have done tweaks between batches. We don't know.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

PLGA said:


> Well, for me the DI-20 is a clear upgrade against the U16.
> 
> On the other hand, I've just tried on the DI-20 the HDMI I2S and the AES/EBU outputs. All the system remained the same during the test, just switching inputs on my R8 DAC with both cables connected. The cables used were a 2.1 HDMI 8K 0.3m long chinese cable (I think the one @FredA recommended) and a fake chinese Nordost Odin XLR 1m long cable (wich I must say also sounds very nice as XLR).
> 
> Well, the AES/EBU input was a clear winner, as @FredA and @DACLadder anticipated. What I noticed the most was improved instrument separation and 3D pin point image. Bass was also better. Staying for now with the AES/EBU cable. Thank you for the advice!



Just sharing a contrary opinion of mine :

I have listened to music via AES/EBU for the past half a week and done some A/B against IIS into my 2019 R7HE (R7 2020 firmware).

AES cable is Mogami Gold 1.5m, HDMI is 0.3m Wireworld Starlight. Glenn Studios OTL headamp with various tube rolls, ZMF Verite Ltd cans via Norne Einvaldi cable. 

My personal experience is that HDMI IIS is better, the dynamics and presentation have more energy and vivid realism. Where I can clearly hear a difference with AES is that it sounds a tad more relaxed. That made it a good option for input to the DAC when i wanted to listen to metal/rock tracks. But anything vocal centric, acoustic - i would press the selector back to IIS in a jiffy.


----------



## Wynnytsky

UsoppNoKami said:


> Where I can clearly hear a difference with AES is that it sounds a tad more relaxed.


With prior gear I way preferred AES over coax.  When conditions were less than ideal for i2s' critical nature, AES was that great middle ground between coax and i2s.
While I don't have an AES on my r2r7, the $20 2ft copper Belden HDMI is a touch more relaxed compared to the 3ft AudioQuest Vodka (10% silver).  It was fun switching DAC inputs to use the one best suited for the song I was listening, but that may come to an end with this Belden i2s.


----------



## FredA

UsoppNoKami said:


> Just sharing a contrary opinion of mine :
> 
> I have listened to music via AES/EBU for the past half a week and done some A/B against IIS into my 2019 R7HE (R7 2020 firmware).
> 
> ...


Yeah really nice to have different flavors. Of course, the result you get is highly dependent on which specific cables are used.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> With prior gear I way preferred AES over coax.  When conditions were less than ideal for i2s' critical nature, AES was that great middle ground between coax and i2s.
> While I don't have an AES on my r2r7, the $20 2ft copper Belden HDMI is a touch more relaxed compared to the 3ft AudioQuest Vodka (10% silver).  It was fun switching DAC inputs to use the one best suited for the song I was listening, but that may come to an end with this Belden i2s.


Nice to hear good things about the Belden not even burned in. I will get mine today.


----------



## nikko510 (Jan 11, 2020)

In my system R2R 7 (R7 2020 firmware) - I2S- DI-20HE (internal clocks), it seems to me that wireworld ultraviolet 7 (1m) cable is smoother than moshou 2.1 8K (0,5m) .
DI-20 HE has only 200 hours, the width and depth of the stage is very good.


----------



## FredA

The Bluejeans cables Belden Series fe is indeed excellent. I have the 0.31m, barely long enough... Could be the best sound so far. Nothing hard, great bass. Lively.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@Monsterzero
A friend just ordered the lampi amber3 (delta sigma) so in 3 weeks I'll get to compare it's usb input vs it's AES from my di20he
Maybe the atlantic (discrete ladder) will be present that day as well.


----------



## Monsterzero

Awesome. Looking forward to your report.


----------



## FredA (Jan 11, 2020)

Again, the BJC belden series fe 0.3m is quite amazing. This cable makes my setup sing like never before. Just a great overall performance. No weak point i can identify so far. Five words: rich, smooth, clear, tight and crisp. Fantastic bass.


----------



## FredA

A good advice i forgot to follow: give the di20he some cool down cycles during burn in. This always helps.  Just gave one today.


----------



## PLGA

FredA said:


> Again, the BJC belden series fe 0.3m is quite amazing. This cable makes my setup sing like never before. Just a great overall performance. No weak point i can identify so far. Five words: rich, smooth, clear, tight and crisp. Fantastic bass.



Hi Fred. 
Im sorry, Ive got lost. 
Is the Bluejeans cables Belden Series fe an HDMI/I2S cable?
If so, do you prefer it over your AES/EBU cable between your DI-20HE and R7-HE?


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

I figured out how to attach usb board into my pc. I can use riser for pci-e 2.0 x1 slot which works through southbringe. This will not affect on videocards or ssd.
According to my ideas of ultimate usb transport usb board must must meet this requirements
- best possible ocxo 
- galvanic isolation from pc motherboard
- separate power for usb chip
- separate power for ocxo. not ot take over the noise from usb chip.
who knows anything like that?

after usb board I will have 2.5 meters usb cable
and I want to reclock usb once more before di-20he by iso regen or sotm usb ultra
I plan to use external 10mhz clock. in that case sotm usb ultra looks better as it have 10mhz input. but its price is awful


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Hi Fred.
> Im sorry, Ive got lost.
> Is the Bluejeans cables Belden Series fe an HDMI/I2S cable?
> If so, do you prefer it over your AES/EBU cable between your DI-20HE and R7-HE?


That's it. 

I haven't done any a to b comparison yet but last night was the best sound ever in my room.


----------



## Wynnytsky

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I can use riser for pci-e 2.0 x1 slot


Those NVMe ports a precious -- I use both on my server.  Your mobo has 3?
I knew people used PCIe to NVMe adapters -- I didn't know I could buy a rizer to go the other way.



REAN1MAT0R said:


> I plan to use external 10mhz clock


People are saying external clocks will only behave when using serial data processing out to I2S.
For those with external clocks we can only hope this can be addressed with an FPGA update.
It'll be interesting to see if that "update port switch" allows us to flash over USB, or if we'll still need to use one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/ALTERA-Blaster-ByteBlaster-Download-Debugger/dp/B00UVM2AQ4
I dunno, the pinkfaun i2s path is sounding awfully good right now.



FredA said:


> I haven't done any a to b comparison yet


me2 -- I don't know what I'm waiting for


----------



## UsoppNoKami

Jackula said:


> Thanks, now you've gotten me interested in Starlight but I'm having a hard time finding them in 0.3m, they seem to have discontinued it.



Yup, it's discontinued unfortunately.  Hard to find similar specs (23AWG, silver plated) without the price going sky high.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I think this is 24awg and Silver-clad OCC copper 6N (>99.9999%)
Whomever pays shipping can have it


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> People are saying external clocks will only behave when using serial data processing out to I2S.
> For those with external clocks we can only hope this can be addressed with an FPGA update.
> It'll be interesting to see if that "update port switch" allows us to flash over USB, or if we'll still need to use one of these:
> https://www.amazon.com/ALTERA-Blaster-ByteBlaster-Download-


No everyone has this issue. The ocxo could be causing problems, i have another coming in within the next weeks. We'll see. 

The blaster you use for your r2r 7 will do. I kept mine so i am good to go.


----------



## DACLadder

My DI20HE is still breaking in (5 weeks).  I2S, SPDIF, and AES/EBU sound better each time I revisit.  Last week it was AES/EBU and how well it compared to SPDIF.  Went back to I2S today and sounds excellent with my WW Silver Starlight 6 (0.3m).  Very clear and open.  I ordered Fred's HDMI cable today to compare.  Internal oscillators are sounding better each week!  My 2nd OCXO should be here in the coming week. 

The sound quality of the DI20HE is just awesome with the internal Accusilicon oscillators and parallel data processing.  Will be nice to compare to external so I can choose what I like.


----------



## Wynnytsky

On the di20he I just swapped a DIY power cable for a friend's Triode Lab cable.  I think its the Twelve Plus American Series, so it's not even the version for digital.  I don't recall ever owning anything that reacted this much to a power cord.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jan 12, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> On the di20he I just swapped a DIY power cable for a friend's Triode Lab cable.  I think its the Twelve Plus American Series, so it's not even the version for digital.  I don't recall ever owning anything that reacted this much to a power cord.



I just did the same thing.   I was using a $8.00 14awg power chord I got on amazon- the thickest regular power chord I could find and replaced it with my Harmonix $1,500 audiophile power chord.  I found there to be a small difference- a bit more transparent perhaps- but I prefer the $8.00 chord as it seems meatier.... 

Using a pure silver USB cable without a power line on the other hand to my ears has a GIGANTIC effect on the sound vs. a cheap $5 USB cable.

This is a fun hobby...


----------



## Wynnytsky

I'm guessing the Triode Labs is 10 or 12awg -- the DIY that preceded it is 13awg.  My DI20HE is sounding it's best with I2S and fatter (lower-gauge) power cables directly into the wall.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

Wynnytsky said:


> Those NVMe ports a precious -- I use both on my server. Your mobo has 3?
> I knew people used PCIe to NVMe adapters -- I didn't know I could buy a rizer to go the other way.


I use Aquacomputer kryoM.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 adapter for M.2  water block and passive heatsink variants but only for better cooling solution



Wynnytsky said:


> People are saying external clocks will only behave when using serial data processing out to I2S.
> For those with external clocks we can only hope this can be addressed with an FPGA update.


Do you mean the above mentioned user problems or external clock synchronization is possible only for devices that connected by i2s? but sotm USBultra does not have i2s input at all - only usb. I think the more devices synched by 10mhz - the better, right?



Wynnytsky said:


> I dunno, the pinkfaun i2s path is sounding awfully good right now.


1600$ pinkfaun vs 988$ Di-20HE feel the difference))
I think pingfaun is just way too overpriced


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I just did the same thing.   I was using a $8.00 14awg power chord I got on amazon- the thickest regular power chord I could find and replaced it with my Harmonix $1,500 audiophile power chord.  I found there to be a small difference- a bit more transparent perhaps- but I prefer the $8.00 chord as it seems meatier....
> 
> Using a pure silver USB cable without a power line on the other hand to my ears has a GIGANTIC effect on the sound vs. a cheap $5 USB cable.
> 
> This is a fun hobby...


I use a pure silver usb cable too,  got it on ebay less than 100usd. I just ordered the 0.7m Oyaide d+ class a, which has a raving review in the Absolute Sound. All occ copper cable but with finely controlled impedance.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> I use a pure silver usb cable too, got it on ebay less than 100usd


we need THE LINK


----------



## FredA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> we need THE LINK


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/0-7-Meter-H...ire/132111568100?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

It will sound bright at first. It sounds like 200usd+ cable.


----------



## Wynnytsky

REAN1MAT0R said:


> we need THE LINK


Is "The Link" a Transparent Audio USB cable?  I'm using a solid silver 23awg (Wireworld Platenum).  But it's sad because I broke my rear USB ports so now I'm using a $10 junky USB hub to share my only USB port with a keyboard.  Just another reason I need to build me a Zen3!  Hurry up AMD!

I would think the external clock makes it's greatest impact when it's syncing 2+ devices.  Since my r2r7 lacks the clock input I'm in no rush to get a clock before the dropout issue is addressed.  Most important to me is hearing the Amber3 (USB vs AES+DI20HE).

ah, so now I understand my pinkfaun has the TCXO, but I can still upgrade to an OCXO later.
Still sounded lovely the one time I tried it with an LPS.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jan 13, 2020)

If your getting a USB cable for use with an Anamero combo384 USB DAC like audio-gd, get one built with separate "Data" and "V-bus lines".  (often referred to as a "dual head usb cable").

Why?  Because the Anamaro combo384 only needs the V-bus power line for the initial handshake to the computer when you do a restart.  Once the computer and DAC make that handshake connection, one may disconnect the power line completely and leave only the data line of the USB cable connected to the DAC.

Results from disconnecting the USB power line are ENORMOUS increase in transparency; more than ANY other tweak I have ever tried in any system I have ever owned....    With all that "Galvanic Isolation"- computer noise is still leaking in to the system- and this is my proof.

By the way- getting a USB cable made for this purpose is much cheaper than getting a LPS for your computer or any of these "Rendu style ethernet devices" and theoretically much better as these devices still have noise- albeit less than the power supply of the computer.   We are talking here about "NO COMPUTER NOISE;- ZERO."  It is simply impossible as there is no power connection between the computer and DAC.  Forget about Galvanic Isolation. This method stops the problem before it even starts; at the beginning of the entire chain rather than attempting to filter it later on in the chain.

Be prepared however (until your ears adjust) for a thinner and more accurate sound than you are used to.  That computer noise is falsely saturating the sonic presentation.


----------



## nikko510

When I received the DI-20HE, I immediately made a new USB cable without + 5 V.
I used a silver OCC 22 AWG cable.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

Wynnytsky said:


> I'm using a solid silver 23awg (Wireworld Platenum)


Its too overpriced. I think Vodka is very good variant. AES/EBU with same quality as vodka costs 3-4 times more



rsbrsvp said:


> If your getting a USB cable for use with an Anamero combo384 USB DAC like audio-gd, get one built with separate "Data" and "V-bus lines". (often referred to as a "dual head usb cable").


And what about connecting with di-20? how can you connect two usb plugs to di-20 to disconnect one of them later?
I think this uptoneaudio adapter can help to turn off usb power. But turning it on and off for each computer restart is annoing






Anybody tried to connect pc with di-20 without usb bus?


----------



## Wynnytsky

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Its too overpriced


definitely -- my friend had an 11" platinum usb, and for the SU1 it ran circles around the curious cable.  I think he asked $200 for it and it came with a metal flight case just in case there's any doubt you're overpaying for a USB cable.

I did test the DI20HE with a switch blocking 5v and it worked.  I didn't try rebooting the computer so I don't know if it would re-establish on it's own.  I loaned that cable to a friend so I can't retest this for a while.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

Wynnytsky said:


> I think he asked $200 for it and it came with a metal flight case just in case there's any doubt you're overpaying for a USB cable.


good deal
it costs 984$ in russia


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jan 13, 2020)

The computer end of a dual headed USB cable has two male A connections- one for data and one for v-bus, but both meet at the dac termination side - leaving one b male termination to go into the dac or Di-20.

Go to eBay and type in "dual head usb cable" to see some examples.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@REAN1MAT0R
On the WireWorld site the shortest length is 1.5m, but I have this 0.3m one feeding into my w4s recovery
https://www.tweekgeek.com/wireworld-platinum-starlight-7-usb/

and this 0.6m exiting the w4s recovery
https://www.tweekgeek.com/pranawire-photon-usb/

he sold me both at the same price.  And my best power cords are from him.  We got great audiopilers in NJ.

@rsbrsvp
In reference to an iFi Gemini I had, my wire friend explained it best.  Very wide stage with a giant hole in the middle.  There was no phantom center.  I held onto it for at least two years before giving up.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> If your getting a USB cable for use with an Anamero combo384 USB DAC like audio-gd, get one built with separate "Data" and "V-bus lines".  (often referred to as a "dual head usb cable").
> 
> Why?  Because the Anamaro combo384 only needs the V-bus power line for the initial handshake to the computer when you do a restart.  Once the computer and DAC make that handshake connection, one may disconnect the power line completely and leave only the data line of the USB cable connected to the DAC.
> 
> ...



Audio-gd does not even use the vbus AFAIK.  Interrupting the v-bus at source prevents it from contaminating the data bus. Using a very clean transport computer, in my case the usbridge signature, and a well shielded usb cable will give also excellent results, even better than just the cable trick as data is better clocked than with you typiical computer, this also being favored by a data bus with very low noise. So this means less back and forth between the computer and the Di20, which lowers the noise floor and improves sound quality.


----------



## FredA

The Belden series fe hdmi was not as good on the second day. I guess burn-in is the cause. Today, things are better.


----------



## darren700

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Its too overpriced. I think Vodka is very good variant. AES/EBU with same quality as vodka costs 3-4 times more
> 
> 
> And what about connecting with di-20? how can you connect two usb plugs to di-20 to disconnect one of them later?
> ...



I have a my computer connected ISO Regen feeding my DI-20HE with the above Uptone adapter. The Vbus switch is permanently off for me, I never have to turn it on when restarting the PC or DI-20.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

darren700 said:


> I have a my computer connected ISO Regen feeding my DI-20HE with the above Uptone adapter. The Vbus switch is permanently off for me, I never have to turn it on when restarting the PC or DI-20.


GREAT NEWS)
do you have pci-e usb card for audio output by usb?


----------



## darren700 (Jan 13, 2020)

REAN1MAT0R said:


> GREAT NEWS)
> do you have pci-e usb card for audio output by usb?



Yes I do. SOTM tX-USBexp powered by ebay Minishow 7v LPS. I lucked out and picked up the SOTM card used for a really good price.
It is a recent addition and definitely an improvement from the motherboard usb,, but with the ISO Regen my motherboard USB still sounded pretty good.


----------



## Zachik

PLGA said:


> On the other hand, I've just tried on the DI-20 the HDMI I2S and the AES/EBU outputs. All the system remained the same during the test, just switching inputs on my R8 DAC with both cables connected. The cables used were a 2.1 HDMI 8K 0.3m long chinese cable (I think the one @FredA recommended) and a fake chinese Nordost Odin XLR 1m long cable (wich I must say also sounds very nice as XLR).
> Well, the AES/EBU input was a clear winner, as @FredA and @DACLadder anticipated. What I noticed the most was improved instrument separation and 3D pin point image. Bass was also better. Staying for now with the AES/EBU cable. Thank you for the advice!


@PLGA - can you provide a link to the AES cable? If I end up getting a DI-20 - I might need a good AES cable. My DAC only has SPDIF and AES. No I2S, so for better or worse - less options to torment myself with 



Wynnytsky said:


> With prior gear I way preferred AES over coax. When conditions were less than ideal for i2s' critical nature, AES was that great middle ground between coax and i2s.


I guess that's the 2nd vote for AES over Coax! (I do have a very good WireWorld Coax cable, though)


----------



## FredA

@Zachik 

Get a Belden serie fe 0.3m hdmi from BlueJeans cables. Best sound yet.


----------



## Zachik

Zachik said:


> My DAC only has SPDIF and AES. No I2S, so for better or worse - less options to torment myself with





FredA said:


> @Zachik
> 
> Get a Belden serie fe 0.3m hdmi from BlueJeans cables. Best sound yet.



Fred - where do I plug the HDMI cable to?!  My DAC does NOT have I2S... 
I have: USB, TOSLINK (optical), SPDIF (RCA / Coax) and AES.


----------



## FredA (Jan 13, 2020)

Zachik said:


> Fred - where do I plug the HDMI cable to?!  My DAC does NOT have I2S...
> I have: USB, TOSLINK (optical), SPDIF (RCA / Coax) and AES.


Sorry. Than the dh labs d110 (aes/ebu) is great for about 50$ if you can solder, make it 100$ otherwise.


----------



## PLGA

Zachik said:


> @PLGA - can you provide a link to the AES cable? If I end up getting a DI-20 - I might need a good AES cable. My DAC only has SPDIF and AES. No I2S, so for better or worse - less options to torment myself with
> 
> 
> I guess that's the 2nd vote for AES over Coax! (I do have a very good WireWorld Coax cable, though)



I would go with the DH Labs cable as I think is a well regarded brand. I personally have their bulk AC power cords (Red Wave and AC Power Plus) and I think they are great for the money. I havent tried their AES/EBU cable, but it must be good and I think Fred has more experience trying cables than me.

On the other hand, the chinese cable I have will cost similar to the DH Labs one and, even I like it very much as XLR and then as AES/EBU, from an Aliexpress seller you are never 100% sure on what you get. I think the DH Labs will be a safer bet.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I was having some issues with my DI-20 usb input so I refreshed the Amanero firmware.   Now it works with the data line only even for the handshake.

Please forgive me for any misinformation earlier...


----------



## FredA (Jan 14, 2020)

I have found total happiness with my updated setup:

Usbridge signature (fed by ebay minishow lps optimized for rpi using a ghent canare dc cable) > ebay silver usb cable > di20he > BJC belden series fe 0.3m hdmi > r7he > diy silver litz acss > he9 > diy silver litz acss > master 3 > acoustic zen satori shutgun > Osborn Eclipse with ref tweeter

That’s it.

Forgot to mention i still use the ebay external ocxo and the serial mode on the di20, the ocxo being fed by an ebay minishow lps through a ghent silver-plated dc cable.


----------



## soundlogic

An update to my “phantom-out-of-phase-micro-bursts”. I tried serial mode which seems to thwart the problem...except serial mode with C16 external clock sounds quite poopy compared to parallel mode...pretty much a non-starter. Has anyone who communicates with Kingwa brought this to his attention, since more than a few of us are experiencing it? Now that my HE has a little over 600 hours on it it is really starting to sound like the piece of gear I was hoping for...EXCEPT this random phase anomaly...which really is quite annoying.


----------



## soundlogic

I would also like to publicly thank Wynnytsky in advance for his generosity.


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> An update to my “phantom-out-of-phase-micro-bursts”. I tried serial mode which seems to thwart the problem...except serial mode with C16 external clock sounds quite poopy compared to parallel mode...pretty much a non-starter. Has anyone who communicates with Kingwa brought this to his attention, since more than a few of us are experiencing it? Now that my HE has a little over 600 hours on it it is really starting to sound like the piece of gear I was hoping for...EXCEPT this random phase anomaly...which really is quite annoying.


I contacted him. Some users have the issue, some don't. I am waiting for my second ocxo to come in before re-contacting him if the problem remains. Try the belden hdmi, works great for me in serial mode.


----------



## FredA (Jan 14, 2020)

Plus the difference between the internal and external becomes small after 800 hours, bass digs lowers, the rest is pretty much the same.

[edit]
Just realized i was in serial mode, there is more of a difference in parallel mode. So far, no glitch with the external using the Belden hdmi. Crossing my fingers.

Dam glitch still there.


----------



## Wynnytsky

At 530 hours with the Triode Labs 7+ directly into the wall... this guy says it better


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> At 530 hours with the Triode Labs 7+ directly into the wall... this guy says it better



Very convincing.


----------



## FredA

@soundlogic 
I am hoping that Kingwa, having possibly a top notch ocxo, has tweaked the fw between batches, which would explain why some have the issue and some don't. Hopefully, it can be fixed though a fw update eventually.


----------



## Jackula (Jan 14, 2020)

I wonder if parallel mode with external clock is designed only to be used in tandem with both the DAC and DI slaved to the same master clock. Otherwise the external clock and DAC clock could run out of phase, because they are running different clocks, different phase noise. Which is potentially why serial works and parallel glitches, and I would assume when Kingwa tested running external clocks his focus was running the DAC and DI together on the same clock.

Well, the only way to find out is if someone could donate me a 10Mhz clock


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jackula said:


> I would assume when Kingwa tested running external clocks his focus was running the DAC and DI together on the same clock.



listen to this man -- he's talking some sense


----------



## PLGA (Jan 14, 2020)

soundlogic said:


> An update to my “phantom-out-of-phase-micro-bursts”



Hello Soundlogic
Can you explain this problem with more information?  I mean, how does it sound to recognize it?

I've only had experienced a couple of times an unbalance on the soundstage that I fixed restarting the system, but I didnt worried because it also happened with the Gustard U16 sometimes. I have no idea why.

My DI-20 is sounding great, in parallel mode and internal OCXO, connected to my R8 DAC via AES/EBU cable.


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> I wonder if parallel mode with external clock is designed only to be used in tandem with both the DAC and DI slaved to the same master clock. Otherwise the external clock and DAC clock could run out of phase, because they are running different clocks, different phase noise. Which is potentially why serial works and parallel glitches, and I would assume when Kingwa tested running external clocks his focus was running the DAC and DI together on the same clock.
> 
> Well, the only way to find out is if someone could donate me a 10Mhz clock


Buy a cheap one. Shipping to Australia alone would cost me more.  

That said the parallel mode is supposed to work under any condition. Except under water...


----------



## FredA

In any case, the Belden hdmi makes much more difference than clocks (internal/external) or modes (serial/parallel) compared to a Moshou 0.5m cable. Or even to the very good d110 aes/ebu cable.


----------



## Raser

I have just bought the DI-20 and im really pleased with it. Huge improvement compared to other interfaces i have used. Just one question though. Could someone advice me what are the best sound options in Windows 10. What bitrates should i allow etc?


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 15, 2020)

Around 200 hours the DI-20HE took a turn for the worse and began to sound pretty bad. I checked back in at the 300-hour mark and things were much better. I2S has so much more space around performers and especially depth to the soundstage but the coaxial and AES connections are smoother on the vocals and brass instruments. I think things will keep getting better as time goes on.

@FredA    Listening to Benny Carter Meets Oscar Peterson. Peterson lets Carter get most of the front time but if Peterson is going to defer to anyone, it would be the GREAT Benny Carter. Carter's Alto and Peterson's piano ring so clear with the Audio-gd DI-20HE and Master 7 Singularity. I would love to hear this material with an R7HE.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> the Belden hdmi


Sir could you give us the link please


----------



## Tango Sierra

@REAN1MAT0R 
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/hdmi-cable.htm


----------



## FredA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Sir could you give us the link please


Call me Fred. 

Or on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.ca/-/fr/Bonded-p...+series+hdmi+0.3m&qid=1579086559&sr=8-1-fkmr0


----------



## darren700 (Jan 15, 2020)

FredA said:


> Call me Fred.
> 
> Or on Amazon:
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/-/fr/Bonded-p...+series+hdmi+0.3m&qid=1579086559&sr=8-1-fkmr0



I am in Canada also, I assumed I couldn't get them here and ordered direct from Blue Jeans cable 2 days ago after you recommended them... wish I would have checked Amazon.ca first as now I will have to pay duty!
I also ordered one of their Belden 1694A BNC-BNC cables to try, and have some DH Labs Silversonic D-110 and DH Labs XLR Plugs on the way for a AES/EBU cable (from solen.ca).

I just want to say thanks for all the cable recommendations Fred, but my wallet hates you! At least they are all relatively cheap compared to most of the other cables in my setup.


----------



## FredA

darren700 said:


> I am in Canada also, I assumed I couldn't get them here and ordered direct from Blue Jeans cable 2 days ago after you recommended them... wish I would have checked Amazon.ca first as now I will have to pay duty!
> I also ordered one of their Belden 1694A BNC-BNC cables to try, and have some DH Labs Silversonic D-110 and DH Labs Plugs on the way for a AES/EBU cable (from solen.ca).
> 
> I just want to say thanks for all the cable recommendations Fred, but my wallet hates you! At least they are all relatively cheap compared to most of the other cables in my setup.


 
Sorry. You should have waited and only get the amazon belden hdmi for 20$, best cable yet. The aes/ebu is also very nice, just less transparent i think, i will have to do a proper a to b at some point.


----------



## FredA (Jan 15, 2020)

Finally did a quick a to b, the belden is definitely more resolved, and has a slightly inferior mid range to the d110. . Still prefer the Belden, the additional depth and air is addictive.

Best sound is with parallel mode with ex. Ocxo, 2nd is serial with external, a close call with parallel/internal.

The external brings better bass, the parallel brings an overall improvement, quite small but enjoyable.


----------



## rsbrsvp

If I have the option for one of two possibilities; either to put a double oven OXCO on the DI-20HE or to attach ithe OXCO to the R7-HE, which option should give better results?


----------



## FredA

Just a guess but i think the main effect of the ocxo is to help the DAC with dejittering the lower frequencies when applied to the DI. If not applied, that jitter will add up to that intoduced by the DAC's clock and be audible. So the ocxo on the DI should make more difference IMO. The accusilicons are good enough that you can't hear much jitter effect with them just by themselves.Some say phase noise can't be perceived under approx. -100dB


----------



## Wynnytsky

Raser said:


> Could someone advice me what are the best sound options in Windows 10. What bitrates should i allow etc?


The sound settings in windows are only used when your media player is pointing to Direct Sound (ie: default sound device) -- fine for youtube but you'll likely be using ASIO or WASAPI in your audiophile media player software.
There are a bunch of common sense tweaks for windows (uninstall or disable ancillary apps/processes).  I recall JPlay giving advanced low-level options to escalate it's own priority in windows.  There's a free program called Fidelizer that goes even further than JPlay, and it allows you to do so with any media player of your choice.  Fidelizer doesn't have an "install" so you just run the executable that you download, and when you reboot then everything is back to normal (so it stops stuff, but doesn't disable them).

The Belden HDMI is a cheap no brainer like the Belken Gold USB cable was 10 years ago, before the market matured.  In the past short wires have never lasted with me (maybe reflections from impedance mismatch, or just less material to filter with?) but the 2ft Belden HDMI is free of that.  It's the first I2S cable I've used that didn't beg to be partnered with warmer/fuller cables elsewhere in the chain.

Does anyone use a Chinese power cord with litz braiding?  I read that's the secret ingredient in my Triode Labs 7+.  I'd like to put my r2r7 on a fat litz as well, but these cables are priced liked DACs.


----------



## Raser

Wynnytsky said:


> The sound settings in windows are only used when your media player is pointing to Direct Sound (ie: default sound device) -- fine for youtube but you'll likely be using ASIO or WASAPI in your audiophile media player software.
> There are a bunch of common sense tweaks for windows (uninstall or disable ancillary apps/processes).  I recall JPlay giving advanced low-level options to escalate it's own priority in windows.  There's a free program called Fidelizer that goes even further than JPlay, and it allows you to do so with any media player of your choice.  Fidelizer doesn't have an "install" so you just run the executable that you download, and when you reboot then everything is back to normal (so it stops stuff, but doesn't disable them).
> 
> The Belden HDMI is a cheap no brainer like the Belken Gold USB cable was 10 years ago, before the market matured.  In the past short wires have never lasted with me (maybe reflections from impedance mismatch, or just less material to filter with?) but the 2ft Belden HDMI is free of that.  It's the first I2S cable I've used that didn't beg to be partnered with warmer/fuller cables elsewhere in the chain.
> ...


Thank you for ypur response. So basically when using Tidal etc streaming. Im good to go.


----------



## darren700

FredA said:


> Sorry. Than the dh labs d110 (aes/ebu) is great for about 50$ if you can solder, make it 100$ otherwise.



Fred, I have a quick question if you dont mind, Ive been reading about AES/EBU cables as I will be making my first one shortly. When wiring yours did you connect the drain wire or the shield to pin 1 of the XLR?
also did you connect it at both ends? I have been reading conflicting opinions on whether to use the copper shield or drain wire for pin 1 of AES/EBU and also some people suggest only connecting one end of the cable to pin 1 and leave the other end not connected. Just curious how you made yours.

Thanks


----------



## Wynnytsky

Raser said:


> Thank you for ypur response. So basically when using Tidal etc streaming. Im good to go.


If you choose ASIO then you can even disable the windows adapter entirely.  When using WASAPI you can't do that, but I'm pretty sure it ignores whatever you've chosen there.

And when you're on ASIO, if windows and your media player are fighting over your adapter (ie: both want an exclusive lock), then disabling the Direct Sound adapter resolves it (ie: in favor of media player).  Though when you want to watch youtube you'll need to re-enable it.

Just by setting this I find I'm disabling the adapter much less...


----------



## FredA (Jan 15, 2020)

darren700 said:


> Fred, I have a quick question if you dont mind, Ive been reading about AES/EBU cables as I will be making my first one shortly. When wiring yours did you connect the drain wire or the shield to pin 1 of the XLR?
> also did you connect it at both ends? I have been reading conflicting opinions on whether to use the copper shield or drain wire for pin 1 of AES/EBU and also some people suggest only connecting one end of the cable to pin 1 and leave the other end not connected. Just curious how you made yours.
> 
> Thanks


Yes I did. I always do. I think cable makers do in general but i could be wrong. Acss cables do have the pin connected on both ends as well.


----------



## darren700

FredA said:


> Yes I did. I always do. I think cable makersdo in general but could be wrong. Acss cables do have the pin connected on both ends as well.



I assume you mean you connected the Shield to pin 1? or did you connect the drain wire?
Thanks again.


----------



## FredA

darren700 said:


> I assume you mean you connected the Shield to pin 1? or did you connect the drain wire?
> Thanks again.


Only the drain wire.


----------



## FredA

@darren700 

Anyway, the shield is an aluminium sheet, so is not meant to be soldered.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ok kids, today's assignment for the day is to wrap a wire (any wire) with aluminum foil and report back to the class what you heard.


----------



## nikko510

I don't change any cables until the DI-20 HE burns out completely.
It changes so much every day that it doesn't make sense.
Once is very good, and the next day is worse, over and over again.


----------



## darren700

FredA said:


> @darren700
> 
> Anyway, the shield is an aluminium sheet, so is not meant to be soldered.


lol, I didn't know it was aluminum, i just assumed it would be copper.




Wynnytsky said:


> ok kids, today's assignment for the day is to wrap a wire (any wire) with aluminum foil and report back to the class what you heard.


Welcome to Audiophile 101. But teacher, which brand of aluminum foil gives the best sound? reynolds wrap or alcan?

But back to topic, I am excited to try the Blue Jeans HDMI that @FredA recommended, will see if I can tell a difference vs the Moshou 2.1 cable


----------



## Wynnytsky

darren700 said:


> But teacher, which brand of aluminum foil gives the best sound? reynolds wrap or alcan?


ah, but the brand is of a fool's concern.  The real question is how long must said foil be placed in the freezer before application.



darren700 said:


> Blue Jeans HDMI that @FredA recommended


yes @FredA I'd also like to take this moment to thank you for recommending this cable that you definitely got before me


----------



## soundlogic

PLGA said:


> Hello Soundlogic
> Can you explain this problem with more information?  I mean, how does it sound to recognize it?
> 
> I've only had experienced a couple of times an unbalance on the soundstage that I fixed restarting the system, but I didnt worried because it also happened with the Gustard U16 sometimes. I have no idea why.
> ...



As I am listening to my DI-20HE, connected to an Auralic Aries G2 via Curious cable usb to DI—in parallel mode, connected to a Gustard C16, external clock mode chosen on DI—-HDMI out to PS Audio Directstream Dac....every  so often: it can be intervals from 60 seconds to 4-5 minutes... I get a very brief but extremely noticeable sonic anomaly that lasts about a second or less. This sounds as I’ve described earlier as a moment of out of phase/blur of soundstage/where a distinct sonic image in front of me has now gone extreme left and right outside the plane of the speakers. It is very distracting as one who likes to listen with his eyes closed, concentrating on the musical presentation, that just goes wonky for a moment. When this happens several times in a 5 minute period, it ruins my listening experience. Last night I tried the series mode, and listen for approx. 5 minutes...I did not notice the phase anomaly, but due to the vast sonic difference in my system using series mode...NOT MY PREFERENCE...I switched back toParallel mode quite quickly. Someone suggested it might be my HDMI...but I kind of doubt that. Hopefully Kingwa can determine the cause and issue a solution.


----------



## FredA (Jan 15, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> ah, but the brand is of a fool's concern.  The real question is how long must said foil be placed in the freezer before application.
> 
> 
> yes @FredA I'd also like to take this moment to thank you for recommending this cable that you definitely got before me


Actually,Victor, i recog, you suggested the cable. I promoted it big time so it passes as my idea.You are Tesla, i am Edison. I am an a.h....Sorry.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Actually,Victor, i recog


OMG if I see you on stage receiving the 2020 cable of the year reward I'm going to throw my SU1 at the TV screen


----------



## darren700 (Jan 15, 2020)

> yes @FredA I'd also like to take this moment to thank you for recommending this cable that you definitely got before me



Now I feel bad... didn't realize that you mentioned it first, we will cut the cable of the year 2020 award in half and give to both of you. cant have anyone left out...

better buy someones used U16 so you can throw that at the screen instead...


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> OMG if I see you on stage receiving the 2020 cable of the year reward I'm going to throw my SU1 at the TV screen


Not a big loss in either case.


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> As I am listening to my DI-20HE, connected to an Auralic Aries G2 via Curious cable usb to DI—in parallel mode, connected to a Gustard C16, external clock mode chosen on DI—-HDMI out to PS Audio Directstream Dac....every  so often: it can be intervals from 60 seconds to 4-5 minutes... I get a very brief but extremely noticeable sonic anomaly that lasts about a second or less. This sounds as I’ve described earlier as a moment of out of phase/blur of soundstage/where a distinct sonic image in front of me has now gone extreme left and right outside the plane of the speakers. It is very distracting as one who likes to listen with his eyes closed, concentrating on the musical presentation, that just goes wonky for a moment. When this happens several times in a 5 minute period, it ruins my listening experience. Last night I tried the series mode, and listen for approx. 5 minutes...I did not notice the phase anomaly, but due to the vast sonic difference in my system using series mode...NOT MY PREFERENCE...I switched back toParallel mode quite quickly. Someone suggested it might be my HDMI...but I kind of doubt that. Hopefully Kingwa can determine the cause and issue a solution.


I suggested the Belden hdmi not to fix the external clock issue, but cause i think, unless you own some really outrageously pricey and recent hdmi cable, it should give you an upgrade that will make your listening experience significantly more enjoyable even in serial mode for less than 20$.


----------



## Wynnytsky

darren700 said:


> we will cut the cable of the year 2020 award in half and give to both of you


if that award is itself a Belden then Fred can have it.  Just don't cut the Belden (1 Kings 3:16-28)

I found solace with my new signature


----------



## soundlogic

Thanks Fred, I ordered one this morning. Regarding length: is anyone using one of the Belden HDMI's longer than 1 ft.? I am completely aware that in the case of HDMI for digital audio...the shorter the better. Unfortunately I need a little more than a foot, so I ordered a 2 footer, with some hesitation. Although at the price they sell for, not a high risk.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> if that award is itself a Belden then Fred can have it.  Just don't cut the Belden (1 Kings 3:16-28)
> 
> I found solace with my new signature


A bible reference on headfi, that's something! Good stuff!


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> Thanks Fred, I ordered one this morning. Regarding length: is anyone using one of the Belden HDMI's longer than 1 ft.? I am completely aware that in the case of HDMI for digital audio...the shorter the better. Unfortunately I need a little more than a foot, so I ordered a 2 footer, with some hesitation. Although at the price they sell for, not a high risk.


Maybe another person did, not sure. I have the 0.3m,  but wanted the 0.6. 0.3 is barely long enough. But i am so happy with the result that i don't care for longer.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Maybe another person did, not sure. I have the 0.3m,  but wanted the 0.6. 0.3 is barely long enough. But i am so happy with the result that i don't care for longer.



yeah my 0.6m sounds great, but it is a whole day older than Fred's cable so you have to consider the extra breakin (this is best part of my day)


----------



## Zachik

Still following this thread closely, and debating whether or not get one of these to replace my Gustard U12...
Couple quick questions:
1. Has anyone by any chance compare the DI-20 or DI-20HE to the Gustard U12? I know it is a long shot, but maybe not really since functionally both solve the same problem...
2. On the DI-20 (or DI-20HE) - anyone here A/B the SPDIF (Coax) to the AES? My DAC does not have I2S, so those are the only 2 options for me.
3. Lastly (for now ) did anyone A/B the Di-20 to the DI-20HE? I know several people here have both! Assuming I move forward - I am debating whether the $440 delta for the HE is worth it (compared to the 90/98 top spec non-HE) or whether I should use this cash for better USB cable or power cable?

I realize a lot is subjective and DAC (or other component in the chain) dependent. Still, people's experience and subjective opinions are very valuable!!

Thanks


----------



## FredA

Zachik said:


> Still following this thread closely, and debating whether or not get one of these to replace my Gustard U12...
> Couple quick questions:
> 1. Has anyone by any chance compare the DI-20 or DI-20HE to the Gustard U12? I know it is a long shot, but maybe not really since functionally both solve the same problem...
> 2. On the DI-20 (or DI-20HE) - anyone here A/B the SPDIF (Coax) to the AES? My DAC does not have I2S, so those are the only 2 options for me.
> ...


1. The u16 beats the u12 which in turn is beaten by both di20 versions. 
2. So far, aes/ebu is winning with the dh labs d110, but i would be curious to compare it with  the new dh labs d-750 75ohms bnc cable
3. One of us has both and will come back with the answer at some point.


----------



## anroj

Zachik said:


> Still following this thread closely, and debating whether or not get one of these to replace my Gustard U12...
> Couple quick questions:
> 1. Has anyone by any chance compare the DI-20 or DI-20HE to the Gustard U12? I know it is a long shot, but maybe not really since functionally both solve the same problem...
> 2. On the DI-20 (or DI-20HE) - anyone here A/B the SPDIF (Coax) to the AES? My DAC does not have I2S, so those are the only 2 options for me.
> ...


Hi Zachik, I can answer #1 based on my experience of owning both the U12 and a DI-20 (non-HE). Firstly, from a usability standpoint, the DI-20 is plug and play with the Amanero driver I previously installed for my R8. No issues with firmware, no glitches - just 100% music. The build of the DI-20 is much more robust and solid. I love the large display and the easy switching of functions. As far as the sound qualities, I find the U16 to be accurate, but dry in comparison to the DI-20. The U16 is quite good, but the DI-20 is much better and soundstage three-dimensionality, bottom-to-top extension, tightness of bass, musical flow, and body. I have about 500 hours on the DI-20 and the sound is still improving. I was listening to Autumn Leaves - Jacintha, and for the first time in my system, her voice was actually in front of the speaker plane. I had never experienced that before. Previously, I was able to get good depth and width of the soundstage, but all performers shared the same lateral plane. Last night was the first time on good recordings where the performer(s) were in front of the instruments, that I was able to get that 3-D realism of soundstage.


----------



## PLGA

anroj said:


> for the first time in my system, her voice was actually in front of the speaker plane. I had never experienced that before. Previously, I was able to get good depth and width of the soundstage, but all performers shared the same lateral plane. Last night was the first time on good recordings where the performer(s) were in front of the instruments, that I was able to get that 3-D realism of soundstage.



That summarize what I felt the most changing the U16 with the DI-20 (non HE version). Better layering and 3D soundstage.

Other things also improved, like palpability of voices and bass.


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 15, 2020)

@Zachik
I have only 320 hours on my DI-20HE connected to my M7S but so far I don't hear a difference most of the time between the BNC or RCA or AES inputs. When I think I hear a difference it is so small that I can't pin down what the difference is so I don't think my impressions are reliable in these instances. Some users finding a difference might be using different brands or models of cables in their comparisons which could make it a cable difference instead of an input difference. The three cables I'm using are all Audio Sensibility Statement OCC 7N silver cables so maybe that is why I don't hear a difference between the BNC or RCA or AES inputs. The difference that I hear on my unit is the I2S HDMI connection but then I'm using a DH Labs cable instead of an Audio Sensibility. So, is it cable or input difference? Ya got me! As you said, it's all subjective.


----------



## Zachik

anroj said:


> Hi Zachik, I can answer #1 based on my experience of owning both the U12 and a DI-20 (non-HE). Firstly, from a usability standpoint, the DI-20 is plug and play with the Amanero driver I previously installed for my R8. No issues with firmware, no glitches - just 100% music. The build of the DI-20 is much more robust and solid. I love the large display and the easy switching of functions. As far as the sound qualities, I find the U16 to be accurate, but dry in comparison to the DI-20. The U16 is quite good, but the DI-20 is much better and soundstage three-dimensionality, bottom-to-top extension, tightness of bass, musical flow, and body. I have about 500 hours on the DI-20 and the sound is still improving. I was listening to Autumn Leaves - Jacintha, and for the first time in my system, her voice was actually in front of the speaker plane. I had never experienced that before. Previously, I was able to get good depth and width of the soundstage, but all performers shared the same lateral plane. Last night was the first time on good recordings where the performer(s) were in front of the instruments, that I was able to get that 3-D realism of soundstage.


I am confused... You started by saying you have a U12 (like mine), but then you compare to U16... Typo??


----------



## anroj

Zachik said:


> I am confused... You started by saying you have a U12 (like mine), but then you compare to U16... Typo??


That was indeed a typo. I own a U16 as well as a C16. I will be keeping the C16.


----------



## Zachik

Zachik said:


> Couple quick questions:
> 1. Has anyone by any chance compare the DI-20 or DI-20HE to the Gustard U12? I know it is a long shot, but maybe not really since functionally both solve the same problem...
> 2. On the DI-20 (or DI-20HE) - anyone here A/B the SPDIF (Coax) to the AES? My DAC does not have I2S, so those are the only 2 options for me.
> 3. Lastly (for now ) did anyone A/B the Di-20 to the DI-20HE? I know several people here have both! Assuming I move forward - I am debating whether the $440 delta for the HE is worth it (compared to the 90/98 top spec non-HE) or whether I should use this cash for better USB cable or power cable?





FredA said:


> 1. The u16 beats the u12 which in turn is beaten by both di20 versions.
> 2. So far, aes/ebu is winning with the dh labs d110, but i would be curious to compare it with  the new dh labs d-750 75ohms bnc cable
> 3. One of us has both and will come back with the answer at some point.



Thanks Fred!
Referencing same numbers as above:
1. Would you say the DI-20 compared to U12 and U16 more musical or more "reference" / analytical? 
2. When you say the AES/EBU is winning (vs. RCA) - is it obvious improvement, or you have to try really hard to tell a very subtle difference? I have a pretty good coax cable.....
3. Waiting anxiously to read DI-20 vs. DI-20HE comparison!!!


----------



## FredA

Zachik said:


> Thanks Fred!
> Referencing same numbers as above:
> 1. Would you say the DI-20 compared to U12 and U16 more musical or more "reference" / analytical?
> 2. When you say the AES/EBU is winning (vs. RCA) - is it obvious improvement, or you have to try really hard to tell a very subtle difference? I have a pretty good coax cable.....
> 3. Waiting anxiously to read DI-20 vs. DI-20HE comparison!!!


1. The di20he has a fuller sound, much improved soundstaging/imaging/depth. It is also more resolved and smoother. 
2. Last time i checked, aes/ebu (d110) had better bass than bnc (Oyaide silver cable) but the difference was less obvious. But because it was DIY, the aes/ebu costs a third. I think it is more about the cable itself than the input. The best bang for the buck is obviously i2s > eas/ebu > spdif right now.


----------



## JaMo (Jan 16, 2020)

Hi all,
I am very pleased with my DI20HE. It has now over 1200h and it is just excellent. This morning I did reset the Amanero module by accident. I was about to take a "readout/examine" of the present FPGA firmware and was clumsy..I wasn't sure of what firmware to chose but decided to flash on "CLPD_for_1081", and "firmware_2006be10" (for CPU) and got DSD256 to work for the first time with my Linux player (Raspberry Pi4). I am a bit confused by the Amanero webpage information... or lack of it so I dropped them a question?

I got an answer from Domenico Vellante (Amanero): "You can use firmware_2006be11 and CPLD_1081".  (Not "DSDSWAPPED"!)

I then checked with Kingwa and he confirm Not "DSDSWAPPED".

So here we have it.

/Jan

ps. Regarding the firmware in DI20/HE, there is only one around, meaning: we have all the same version/J


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> Call me Fred.
> 
> Or on Amazon:
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/-/fr/Bonded-p...+series+hdmi+0.3m&qid=1579086559&sr=8-1-fkmr0


Thank you sir )


----------



## FredA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Thank you sir )


You are welcome, your Highness.


----------



## FredA (Jan 16, 2020)

@soundlogic

Hi. I just got the fw (the only existing one) and reflashed it, the glitch seems much less frequent if still there at all, cause the heating unit makes cracking noises.

Yes,  just heard it on headphones, there is still an issue and it is far less obvious it seems now.  Livable with so far. Parallel sounds so well!

Kingwa uses his own psu with the c16.

PM me to get the fw file or email Kingwa. You need to install the altera quartus programmer and to get a usb blaster first, and install the proper driver, which can be found in the quartus distribution.  Quite some work to do...

Thanks to @JaMo for contacting Kingwa, who suggested a reflash, and for giving me the fw file. I think the glitch may very well go away now, it is far less frequent and obvious. There must have been some errors in the original flash.

Haven't heard any glitch in the last 15min, the sound is wonderful.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

I am not deep in 10mhz clocks
Does Mutec ref 10 compatible with di-20HE, R-7HE and sotm usbultra as it has square wave signal?
Or should i prefer Cybershaft products with sine wave signal ?


----------



## JaMo

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I am not deep in 10mhz clocks
> Does Mutec ref 10 compatible with di-20HE, R-7HE and sotm usbultra as it has square wave signal?
> Or should i prefer Cybershaft products with sine wave signal ?



Sine waves seem to be preferred. I haven't had any chance to test those high end XO's You point at so if they can add a result worth their price tags is unknown, at least for me. I use Oscilloquartz 8663-xs and a pretty good Trimble.. Both give a better/different sound compared to the internal XO and I have the ext xo's active at all time, I prefer the sound with them.
/Jan


----------



## Raser

Weird problem occured with my DI-20. All of a sudden all music rattles and has "static". Tried powering off the unit, rebooted computer. Nothing worked, and all of a sudden the problem disappeares? Any ideas what that could be. Has happened couple of times now.


----------



## PLGA (Jan 16, 2020)

Raser said:


> Weird problem occured with my DI-20. All of a sudden all music rattles and has "static". Tried powering off the unit, rebooted computer. Nothing worked, and all of a sudden the problem disappeares? Any ideas what that could be. Has happened couple of times now.



I've had a similar problem also a couple of times, mostly with MQA. It disappear after restarting the DI-20. I have no idea why, but also happened sometimes with my U16.

What DAC do you have?  I have the Audio-GD R8 and the DI-20 is running with internal clocks.

I also had a couple of times an unbalanced soundstage. This one I guess it must be related to burning maybe ¿?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Raser said:


> Weird problem occured with my DI-20. All of a sudden all music rattles and has "static". Tried powering off the unit, rebooted computer. Nothing worked, and all of a sudden the problem disappeares? Any ideas what that could be. Has happened couple of times now.


on which clock?  internal, external, both?

I suggest to whomever has this issue that they troubleshoot by using SPD/IF from another interface instead of USB in.  If the problem goes away then this may be addressed with the Amanero FPGA.  If it stays, then maybe the other FPGA.


----------



## Raser (Jan 16, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> on which clock?  internal, external, both?
> 
> I suggest to whomever has this issue that they troubleshoot by using SPD/IF from another interface instead of USB in.  If the problem goes away then this may be addressed with the Amanero FPGA.  If it stays, then maybe the other FPGA.


Internal, i dont have a external clock.
i need to test with some other digital source if the problem occures.
I do have couple of other interfaces and never had this kind of a problem.


----------



## Raser (Jan 16, 2020)

PLGA said:


> I've had a similar problem also a couple of times, mostly with MQA. It disappear after restarting the DI-20. I have no idea why, but also happened sometimes with my U16.
> 
> What DAC do you have?  I have the Audio-GD R8 and the DI-20 is running with internal clocks.
> 
> I also had a couple of times an unbalanced soundstage. This one I guess it must be related to burning maybe ¿?


I feed the signal from DI-20 directly to my speakers. Avantgarde Acoustic ZeroXd so the dacs are 24 bit BurrBrown.
Never had this kind a problem with any other my digital interfaces.
Can someone explain what is the clock setting in DI-20 settings. I mean this part:
*The 2nd display element :*
        "C" (Clock) means the Clk OUT on the backplate outputs a 256fs main clock , "L" (LRCK/WCLK) means the output is the word clock .
That propably affects only if you are using a external clock?


----------



## FredA

Raser said:


> I feed the signal from DI-20 directly to my speakers. Avantgarde Acoustic ZeroXd so the dacs are 24 bit BurrBrown.
> Never had this kind a problem with any other my digital interfaces.
> Can someone explain what is the clock setting in DI-20 settings. I mean this part:
> *The 2nd display element :*
> ...


It's the clock output (at the back) configuration. Does not matter if not used.


----------



## soundlogic

FredA said:


> @soundlogic
> 
> Hi. I just got the fw (the only existing one) and reflashed it, the glitch seems much less frequent if still there at all, cause the heating unit makes cracking noises.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the offer Fred, I will PM you so as not to muck-up this thread.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

Raser said:


> "C" (Clock) means the Clk OUT on the backplate outputs a 256fs main clock , "L" (LRCK/WCLK) means the output is the word clock .
> That propably affects only if you are using a external clock?


Clock modes:
- Master (output CLK)
- Slave (10MHz input 0.3Vpp- 3Vpp) 

Output clock:
- 256fs clock
- WCLK clock
- DSD clock

It looks like it can send WCLK as master and as slave(recieving 10mhz clock from external 10mhz clock generator)
but it is impossible to send this WCLK to R-7HE(as their last model) because it have 10mhz input only


----------



## jimmychan (Jan 16, 2020)

My 2 x DI-20HE have over one month burn in already. They are so good that I decided to sell my dCS Network Bridge. The DI has already surpassed my dCS NB in all aspects when they were newly bought.

I am glad that I have the DI20HE. I came a long way from Audio-gd’s DDC, i.e. Ref. 3, DI-V2, DI2014 and now DI-20HE. I had also owned SU1,SU6, U16, Aurender N10. It seems that DI20HE can beat all of them.


----------



## Jackula

PLGA said:


> I've had a similar problem also a couple of times, mostly with MQA. It disappear after restarting the DI-20. I have no idea why, but also happened sometimes with my U16.
> 
> What DAC do you have?  I have the Audio-GD R8 and the DI-20 is running with internal clocks.
> 
> I also had a couple of times an unbalanced soundstage. This one I guess it must be related to burning maybe ¿?



Had a few similar quirks with and without MQA. Don't need to restart the DI, just recycling the R7HE inputs work just as well.


----------



## Tango Sierra

Had only a few similar quirks. Rebooting the DAC (M7S) cures the problem. Remember the Audio-gd recommendation to wait at least 30 seconds after turning the power off before turning back on.


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 16, 2020)

Right now I am at 340 hours and so far I have been listening using the Aurender N100H Server/Player to send the music to the DI-20HE and the sound quality continues to improve.  Decided to try something for contrast and connected the desktop computer USB to the DI-20HE and noticed some strange things while listening to Lay Lady Lay from the album Nashville Skyline.

*Computer to DI-20HE using foobar 2000 as player on computer.*
BNC/AES/RCA outputs.
    Bass guitar is from right side and very weak.
    Drums from left side. Snare more prominent on this side but muddy. Bass drum is also very muddy.
    Lead guitar is from right side and sounds slightly restrained.
    Vocal is slightly right of center and not separated from the band by much.
I2S HDMI out put.
   Bass guitar is more pronounced from left side and very muddy.
    Drums are from right side. Snare restrained and bass drum can be barely heard.
    Lead guitar is from left side and prominent.
    Vocal is slightly left of center and has its own space.

*Switched USB connection to Computer direct to M7S USB input. (No DI-20HE)*
    Overall the same anomalies as above but less pleasant.to listen to and lacks the soundstage spacing of the DI-20HE

*Went back my normal setup of Aurender USB connected to DI-20HE*
Again, the same anomalies as with the direct from computer setup but the Aurender sounds leagues better than the computer feed.

Upon further listening, some of these anomalies are not exclusive to this album or track. Older recordings where instruments are mixed mostly to the left or right stereo channel make the differences more obvious. On newer recordings where the mix tries to lock the instrument into a more natural position on the soundstage the initial impression of the sound when switching inputs is very noticeable but the reversal of channels is not the first thing I notice, but it is there. Still, this does not explain the space the I2S HDMI creates in the sound.

Update: Now listening to Piece of My Heart by Eric Clapton using the Aurender to DI-20HE; even with the overall sound changes happening while switching from HDMI to the other outputs, the Hammond B3 is coming from the far left through all the outputs. DOH, what is happening hear**? (**not a misspelling, just a play on words.)  I am getting more confused than ever.!!!

PS: All my attempts to improve the sound from the computer before I got the Aurender was wasted money. My recommendation to others is to get an Aurender or Innous Zenith or Auralic Aries G1 or SOtM NEO Ultra to feed the music to your DAC or DDC. A used Aurender N100H can easily be found for approx $1,700.00 USD. Create an agent on HiFi Shark to alert you when listings on the various websites become available. (an added bonus is the seller usually doesn't delete the music on the server). I prefer to have the music stored on the player which the SOtM does not do. I have the Aurender since last May and my brother bought a used Innous Zenith MK II last October (he had a Bluesound Node 2 but moved up to the Innous after hearing my Aurender). Both of us have been astounded by the SQ improvement. I can't say which is better because I haven't had them side by side to compare yet and the rest of our systems are completely different.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@Tango Sierra you can reverse the channels on the di20he from the front panel.
Is your computer a laptop?


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 16, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> @Tango Sierra you can reverse the channels on the di20he from the front panel.
> Is your computer a laptop?



No, as stated it is a desktop computer. The computer part is irrelevant and only mentioned because this is when I first realized that these anomalies were happening.  I haven't got around to pulling the CD out and listen to which stereo image is correct but that can be unimportant also because many CD reissues had the stereo image reversed compared to the original vinyl releases. I just don't understand why the I2S HDMI output is the opposite of the other outputs. I like the idea of being able to easily select the output that sounds the best with the individual material but not if the stereo image may be wrong.


----------



## Tango Sierra

If we can reverse the stereo image from the front panel of the DI-20, why can't we get a mono selection? I would prefer it at the preamp, but I would take it at the DDC if that was the only choice.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Tango Sierra said:


> I just don't understand why the I2S HDMI output is the opposite of the other outputs.


Welcome to i2s.  It's been plaguing all of us for over 5years, and now interfaces and DACs are offering dip switches or buttons (U16, DI20, etc) to flip channels while on i2s.



Tango Sierra said:


> I would prefer it at the preamp, but I would take it at the DDC if that was the only choice.


actually you don't cause then you can't toggle between DAC inputs without the channels swapping on you.  You need to do this on the DDC or with a special HDMI cable that inverts pins on one end.


----------



## roni44

is anyone here using IFI Micro iUSB between PC/MAC to DI-20? if you do, what's your opinion? is it necessary or its over killed?


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 17, 2020)

@Wynnytsky
Thank you so much. I reversed the stereo channels for HDMI in the DI-20HE settings and now the HDMI has the same stereo orientation as the other outputs. Now it will be easier to judge the sound differences between the different outputs.

Still doesn't explain the Hammond organ on the Clapton track.  Overall I am a happier camper now.

Now if I could get a mono selector for those extreme stereo recordings. Maybe they will add one to the next versions of their preamps including the M9.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@Tango Sierra
For all the angst that the Gustard U16 receives, it did have a fancy front panel display that let you simply choose the family/brand of DAC you have.
My friend just ordered a Lampi Amber3 from Poland and he asked if he can have an i2s input in place of it's optical, and they said [because there is no standard] they have no desire to touch i2s.  That says a lot.

My friend went from a 2014 Mac mini to an Aurender N10, and yeah, he's no looking back
For the sorry souls using a win10 PC for playback while contributing to this thread and browsing email, they can put JRiver in mono by hitting ^D and doing either of these...


----------



## Pappas3278

Wynnytsky said:


> @Tango Sierra you can reverse the channels on the di20he from the front panel.
> Is your computer a laptop?


After reading about the DI20 and i2s channel orientation, I'm still confused.  Is the stereo channel reversed by default using i2s using internal clocks??


----------



## Tango Sierra

@Pappas3278 
I doubt the I2S HDMI output is reversed by default. It was my cable that was wired backwards for the DI-20HE since as Wynnytsky pointed out, there is no standard for HDMI when used for HiFi audio purposes.


----------



## DACLadder

With the DI20HE the L-R stereo channels are correct for all inputs - I2S (default PS Audio mode), SPDIF, AES//EBU.  Using the M7S DAC today.


----------



## Pappas3278

Great!  Thanks for clarifying guys.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I attached a spreadsheet that Pink Faun uses to track i2s pinout variations across the DAC brands they support.  They have a single tiny dip switch on the board.
(sent to me on Nov 4th so it's over 2.5mo old)

(and if you can't open an excel doc...)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fiXGAGorpewNYwVaUWdccVC4hjhqqX-nHNLzVwLwLdc


----------



## Tango Sierra

Thank you, Audio-gd, for giving us the ability to so easily reverse the channels for the I2S HDMI output.


----------



## FredA (Jan 18, 2020)

I am at 900h with the di20he. Some obsevations:

1. The serial mode with  external sounded better than parallel/external last night. Totally unexpected.

2. The internal clock vs external gave a more relaxed sound, the external was more lively with better bass. Both were great.

3. From 600h to 900h, the di has matured. It definitely is an exceptional interface now.

I just tried a new diy 7n silver occ cable made with Neotech wire obtained on aliexpress. Just a 3-wire braid in a nylon jacket, no shielding. Awesome cable: fast, dynamic, clean, resolved, great bass, dark background. The wire can be tined directly without sanding with a solder pot but still require over 3 hours per pair to assemble.

This gave me the idea to add a nylon jacket to my current silver litz cable. I think the cable sounds more dynamic with it, again totally unexpected. The jacket attenuates sound-induced vibrations in the wire braid, so it is not necessarily my imagination.


----------



## DACLadder

I am back using the R7 DAC after listening for one week with the DI20HE driving the M7S inputs.  The R7 sounds glorious driven by the internal clocks of the DI.  Very dynamic, good solid bass, and crisp, clean highs!  Best DAC I every owned, extremely versatile, and made better by the DI20HE.  

After almost 6 wks use the DI20HE is still sounding better!  Each time I revisit an input it seems things are better than I remember.  I switched over the DoP firmware (R7) a few weeks ago and that firmware sounds great.

The Belden 0.5m HDMI cable is tremendous and what a bargain!   Takes a few days to run in but sounding very good.  SPDIF and AES/EBU aren't far behind but I2S has the edge.  

The only DI complaint remains external clock with parallel data mode.  But internal XOs are sounding really good at the moment.  My 2nd OCXO is slowly shipping so eager to try that clock with the DI.


----------



## TitaniumDust

Sorry about a relative noob mucking up the thread, but I had one question I couldn't seem to figure out by looking at the product page or this thread.

Is the AES/EBU output on the DI-20 capable of transmitting DSD, or is that limited to the IIS output?
My U16 has started causing issues again, so it is time to replace that piece of #&%@.  I would be getting DI-20 90/98, and then upgrading the DAC at a later time.  Thanks!


----------



## PLGA

TitaniumDust said:


> Sorry about a relative noob mucking up the thread, but I had one question I couldn't seem to figure out by looking at the product page or this thread.
> 
> Is the AES/EBU output on the DI-20 capable of transmitting DSD, or is that limited to the IIS output?
> My U16 has started causing issues again, so it is time to replace that piece of #&%@.  I would be getting DI-20 90/98, and then upgrading the DAC at a later time.  Thanks!



You wont regret it. I replaced my U16 with the DI-20 and couldnt be happier.


----------



## PLGA

Guys, I have a couple of minor issues playing music with my DI-20:

1- I have some few episodes when suddenly the music turns into noise, like pink noise. 

I solve that only restaring the song. Not a big problem at all as it happens almost never, but I would like to know if any of you had it and if it should disappear with burning.

I also think it happens when I share the Internet connection with other devices like my kids smart TV. May be its related with lack of bandwith or some software bugs on Audinirvana, I dont know. It also happened with my U16, but then it was more often. 

2- Unbalanced soundstage or reversed channels. I solve this with changing inputs on my R8 or restaring my DI-20. Another issues that will disappear with burning?

Any similar experience or thoughts?


----------



## Wynnytsky

PLGA said:


> You wont regret it. I replaced my U16 with the DI-20 and couldnt be happier.



And I replaced my paper fiat currency for a DI20HE - couldn't be happier.

I had reservations about HE but that all vanished when I plugged directly into the wall.


----------



## FredA

P


PLGA said:


> Guys, I have a couple of minor issues playing music with my DI-20:
> 
> 1- I have some few episodes when suddenly the music turns into noise, like pink noise.
> 
> ...


My unit has not had a single issue other the glitch when using the external ocxo. I assume some data is lost in you case and i2s becomes out of phase. Likely caused by your sw. I am on a rpi3b+ (usbridge sig).


----------



## FredA

TitaniumDust said:


> Sorry about a relative noob mucking up the thread, but I had one question I couldn't seem to figure out by looking at the product page or this thread.
> 
> Is the AES/EBU output on the DI-20 capable of transmitting DSD, or is that limited to the IIS output?
> My U16 has started causing issues again, so it is time to replace that piece of #&%@.  I would be getting DI-20 90/98, and then upgrading the DAC at a later time.  Thanks!


The di supports DoP although i was not able to make it work, i haven't really tried however. It is a Volumio issue i believe.


----------



## PLGA

FredA said:


> P
> 
> My unit has not had a single issue other the glitch when using the external ocxo. I assume some data is lost in you case and i2s becomes out of phase. Likely caused by your sw. I am on a rpi3b+ (usbridge sig).



Im using it with AES/EBU connection with my R8, not I2S.

On the other hand, I have to try again, but I think it happens much more often with Tidal MQA. 

I think its something related with slow Internet connection. Anyone of you with similar problemas?


----------



## nikko510

DI-20HE has about 400 hours, is very good in all respects.
I am still returning to the dsdclk software in my R2R7 V2.
The dop software is too aggressive for me and I've never liked NOS modes.


----------



## TitaniumDust

FredA said:


> The di supports DoP although i was not able to make it work, i haven't really tried however. It is a Volumio issue i believe.



Thanks FredA!  I assumed as much but thought I would ask just in case.  That would be in the future for me anyways.
I'm tired of all the technical glitches of my U16.  I just want something that works all the time.  I had a SU-1 for quite a while (before I accidentally broke a port) and it never gave me any problems.  Hopefully the DI-20 will be the same since I think the Amanero driver is probably quite stable, but if not I'm sure I can sell it quite easily.  My use case is pretty basic too, especially compared to the systems I've seen in this thread, so that helps things.  I'll probably place my order in a couple of weeks.


----------



## TitaniumDust (Jan 19, 2020)

OK, my THX AAA 789 amp just died... the string of bad luck continues.  Will have to push back the DI-20 a bit.  Thanks for everyone's help!

Edit: Drop was super cool about the situation and even offered me a full refund, and also paid for shipping back to them.  Amazing!  I always had concern about the soft power switch/circuitry as I think that is what failed.  I ordered a SMSL SP200 since I like the form factor and physical power switch better. Now I'm $110 in the black - so DI-20 is back on schedule.  Woohoo!


----------



## FredA

TitaniumDust said:


> OK, my THX AAA 789 amp just died... the string of bad luck continues.  Will have to push back the DI-20 a bit.  Thanks for everyone's help!


Sorry about about this. No, warranty on the amp?


----------



## rsbrsvp

I had this crackling/ static problem for a week or so-  drove me crazy.   I refreshed the Amenaro USB (not the DI-20- Firmware) and it is gone..... Hope it stays gone...

Regarding the clock setting- I just ordered a double oven OXCO- sine wave.  What setting do I choose for the clock output on the DI-20HE?


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

rsbrsvp said:


> I just ordered a double oven OXCO- sine wave


wow what model is it?
I am ordering square wave OXCO -120db at 1hz

And I am dissapointed
Di-20HE and R7-HE(2020) both has 50ohm bnc input for 10mhz external clock.
But its almost impossible to find good 50ohm bnc!
For example i can find good 75ohm cables for good price like Oyaide DB-510 0.7m BNC - BNC or ATLAS CABLES Hyper 75 BNC-BNC
But how about 50ohms?
How do you connect your Di-20 to external 10mhz?


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I had this crackling/ static problem for a week or so-  drove me crazy.   I refreshed the Amenaro USB (not the DI-20- Firmware) and it is gone..... Hope it stays gone...
> 
> Regarding the clock setting- I just ordered a double oven OXCO- sine wave.  What setting do I choose for the clock output on the DI-20HE?


Not relevant as the dac only  supports 10mhz for now (assuming you have the 10mhz input on it) . So you can only feed both with the 10mhz  ocxo, and the clock output option is irrelevant as the output is not used.


----------



## JaMo

REAN1MAT0R said:


> But its almost impossible to find good 50ohm bnc



No, it is not. http://www.cybershaft.jp/option01/semirg01.html http://www.cybershaft.jp/option01/option_bnc1.html

/Jan


----------



## FredA

REAN1MAT0R said:


> wow what model is it?
> I am ordering square wave OXCO -120db at 1hz
> 
> And I am dissapointed
> ...


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/BNC-Male-to...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/BNC-Male-to...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648


----------



## rsbrsvp

REAN1MAT0R said:


> wow what model is it?
> I am ordering square wave OXCO -120db at 1hz
> 
> And I am dissapointed
> ...



Just go to baby or amazon.   Easy to find a 50 ohm cable for just a few dollars.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

FredA said:


> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/BNC-Male-to...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> 
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/BNC-Male-to...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648





rsbrsvp said:


> Just go to baby or amazon. Easy to find a 50 ohm cable for just a few dollars.


I am afraid to use such cables as they can spoil signal quality

External clock with -120db at 1hz costs 5800 E U R O. It is rare highly graded OCXO.
I am against buying the most expensive cables
But I think I should do something reasonable to provide good signal. For example silver 5n monocrystal with double isolation as Oyaide DB-510 but they are only 75ohm



JaMo said:


> No, it is not. http://www.cybershaft.jp/option01/semirg01.html http://www.cybershaft.jp/option01/option_bnc1.html


I know about this cybershaft bnc cables. But I dont know how good are they? May be they not much better then 8$ cables from amazon?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Question about amanero fpga:

Is that only used by the USB input?
[said another way] which inputs bypass amanero?


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> Question about amanero fpga:
> 
> Is that only used by the USB input?
> [said another way] which inputs bypass amanero?


The rca spdif input, which the only other audio input.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> The rca spdif input, which the only other audio input.



so the i2s input is the only input that bypasses Amanero?


----------



## jimmychan

No i2s input, only i2s output. USB input by Amanero converts to i2s. Other inputs also converts to i2s by FPGA.


----------



## Wynnytsky

jimmychan said:


> No i2s input, only i2s output


ah yes -- I'm asking about DI20 and thinking about my DAC

With r2r7 I can flash the Altera and Xilinx FPGAs.  I presume neither of those are the Amanero?  Does the R7 2020 version let you flash the Amanero?


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> so the i2s input is the only input that bypasses Amanero?



If you mean on the dac, they all do except usb. Same with the di.


----------



## DACLadder

Wynnytsky said:


> With r2r7 I can flash the Altera and Xilinx FPGAs.  I presume neither of those are the Amanero?  Does the R7 2020 version let you flash the Amanero?



The Amanero is reflashed over USB with special software.

It is more difficult on the R7 internal Amanero board as you have to short circuit two PCB pins to put the board in download mode.  Kingwa makes it easier on the DI20 as you just press the red button on the back of the unit to place the Amanero circuit in programming mode.  Never done it but have a look here to get you started... http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/Amanero/AmaneroEN.htm


----------



## JaMo

I have done it a few times. Follow this: https://www.amanero.com/howto.htm
/Jan


----------



## DACLadder (Jan 20, 2020)

When using the Amanero ConfigTool.exe s/w what are the target Amanero CPLD and CPU firmwares?  "CPLD_for_1080" and "DSD512x48x44" ?

On my Windows 10 machine I have to use 'oem tool 117' from the link below.  It looks different from the "howto" link directly above.  The "howto" link's version is not digitally signed properly for Windows 10. The current Windows playback driver worked OK with config tool 117 (if previously installed).  I could not load the other config tool Windows driver as Windows 10 said it was already up-to-date..

Also the CPLD and CPU firmwares are built into the tool (no separate files).  You only have options to select versions with the config tool's pulldown menus.

Had to also deviate from the written procedure.  After erasing the Amanero device(s) a power cycle was required for the DI20 to sync up with the 117 tool.  It did not work just unplugging and replugging the USB cable as documented.  DI20 power cycle was also required between CPLD and CPU programming.

Have to remember to not touch the red button on back of the DI20!  It will erase the Amanero and require reloading.

https://www.amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm


----------



## DACLadder

I think I loaded the older Amanero files.  Suppose to be 'CPLD_for_1081' and '2006be'.  2006be10 and 2006be11 were listed so I chose 2006be11.

And I did not have to reboot the DI20 between the CPLD and CPU version the 2nd go around.  After erasing just program the CPLD first and CPU 2nd.  Afterward I power cycled when reconnecting my audio USB source. 

The DI20 works after I fiddled with it.  So didn't brick the box.


----------



## JaMo (Jan 20, 2020)

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I know about this cybershaft bnc cables. But I dont know how good are they? May be they not much better then 8$ cables from amazon?



Hi, the Cybershaft cables comes with an individual protocol of its measurement. The semi rigids has very good reputation in the crazy high end community. They are true 50 Ohm cables. And that is important, especially when You want to transfer square wave. Sine is less critical but You should always be careful of cables of choice with impedance matching. If You buy a 5800 Euro Master clock...You don't want to ruin its performance with sneaky cables.
/Jan


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jan 21, 2020)

I am new to audio-gd.

I bought the DI-20HE, the R7-HE and The HE-9 (I'm a headphone listener).

These components sound incredible; certainly the most transparent equipment I ever heard.

I do have one issue however: All these firmware upgrades and USB refreshes drive me crazy.  I am a MAC user and know nothing about windows computers, which are needed for these updates.  In addition- the instructions to update are not clear AT ALL.  It often takes multiple communications with Kingwa over several days to get to the point where I understand how to do an update.  This seems unnecessary and cumbersome for both the user and for Kingwa.

Can anyone write up *clear and exact step-by-step instructions* (for a type of person who is computer and technology illiterate) for updating all the audio-gd components in good English and send them to audio-gd for them to post on their web-site.  It would be an enormous favor.


----------



## rsbrsvp

By the way- maybe Youtube videos would be an easier and more exact way for a more experienced audio-gd user to show us beginners how to update all our components.

After all- a picture is worth a thousand words.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

rsbrsvp said:


> After all- a picture is worth a thousand words.


hundred
in Russia we measure it as hundred


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jan 23, 2020)

At this point the R7-HE and HE-9 sound better with direct USB from my computer when using a reference USB cable than by way of the DI-20HE with a cheap USB cable (the one that came with the DI-20HE).  If the the DI-20HE is fed by an equivalently good USB cable it does surpass the HE-7 fed directly by a good USB cable- even if the HDMI cable is not so good (I currently have a cheapo $2 HDMI cable only).  I do not know the results of using a good HDMI cable in addition to a good USB cable on the DI-20HE because I am still waiting for a few I ordered.

At this point (without access to a better HDMI cable), I do not feel that the sonic improvement using the DI-20HE is gigantic vs. going direct from computer to DAC.  I would call the improvement moderate.


----------



## FredA (Jan 23, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> At this point the R7-HE and HE-9 sound better with direct USB from my computer when using a reference USB cable than by way of the DI-20HE with a cheap USB cable (the one that came with the DI-20HE).  If the the DI-20HE is fed by an equivalently good USB cable it does surpass the HE-7 fed directly by a good USB cable- even if the HDMI cable is not so good (I currently have a cheapo $2 HDMI cable only).  I do not know the results of using a good HDMI cable in addition to a good USB cable on the DI-20HE because I am still waiting for a few I ordered.
> 
> At this point (without access to a better HDMI cable), I do not feel that the sonic improvement using the DI-20HE is gigantic vs. going direct from computer to DAC.  I would call the improvement moderate.


The biggest improvements are with resolution, balance and soundstaging. Of course you need headpbones that can reveal the differences. With my setup, using the same silent computer (usbridge) to feed both through a silver usb cable, the difference is 4 notches, which means big. I use revealing silver litz IC between dac and pre and pre and amp, and a revealing set of loudspeaker. The difference is really obvious and welcome.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jan 23, 2020)

FredA said:


> The biggest improvements are with resolution, balance and soundstaging. Of course you need headpbones that can reveal the differences. With my setup, using the same silent computer (usbridge) to feed both through a silver usb cable, the difference is 4 notches, which means big. I use revealing silver litz IC between dac and pre and pre and amp, and a revealing set of loudspeaker. The difference is really obvious and welcome.



I'm looking forward to more improvements when I get some of the HDMI cables you recommended which have still not arrived.

Regarding cabling- I have pure litz silver and pure litz copper IC cables; both close to equally revealing, with the major difference being tonality.   I also have Susvara and TC headphones- so I think I'm pretty well set up.


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

rsbrsvp said:


> If the the DI-20HE is fed by an equivalently good USB cable it does surpass the HE-7 fed directly by a good USB cable- even if the HDMI cable is not so good (I currently have a cheapo $2 HDMI cable only).


I ordered Oyaide Continental 5S V2 3.0m 5N silver from PC to Sotm UsbUltra for amazing 220$ new
But still need second short usb from UsbUltra to Di-20HE
Judging by the reviews the best usb cable is AudioQuest Diamond 

I still not decided about HDMI cable( 
I'm afraid to miss the choice
Kingwa said he likes wire world chroma


----------



## rsbrsvp

Could someone tell me how the ACSS IC cables from Kingwa compare to pure silver litz IC's in their system???

In mine- the ACSS seem to be a bit more detailed- but also a bit thinner sounding.  Don't know which I like better....


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I'm looking forward to more improvements when I get some of the HDMI cables you recommended which have still not arrived.
> 
> Regarding cabling- I have pure litz silver and pure litz copper IC cables; both close to equally revealing, with the major difference being tonality.   I also have Susvara and TC headphones- so I think I'm pretty well set up.


You seem well setup. Your usb and hdmi  cables could be bottlenecks, other than that, maybe there is a lack of burn-in overall. You need close to a thousand hours on each gear.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Could someone tell me how the ACSS IC cables from Kingwa compare to pure silver litz IC's in their system???
> 
> In mine- the ACSS seem to be a bit more detailed- but also a bit thinner sounding.  Don't know which I like better....


You need occ silver litz acss to max. sound quality, or occ copper litz acss is very good as well. DIY is the only way I know for silver litz, or maybe Tubulus uses litz.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> You seem well setup. Your usb and hdmi  cables could be bottlenecks, other than that, maybe there is a lack of burn-in overall. You need close to a thousand hours on each gear.



Thats good news as I'm at around 300 hours burn in time...




FredA said:


> You need occ silver litz acss to max. sound quality, or occ copper litz acss is very good as well. DIY is the only way I know for silver litz, or maybe Tubulus uses litz.



I don't know how to anything myself in electronics.  Could you make some for me?


----------



## Wynnytsky

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Kingwa said he likes wire world chroma


me thinks Kingwa shares factories with big name brands.  On his lunch break he can grab a chroma off the conveyor belt.  But shipping a $20 belden would be way too much time and money.



rsbrsvp said:


> I don't know how to anything myself in electronics. Could you make some for me?


and soon after "DIF Cables" was formed and the rest is history


----------



## FredA (Jan 23, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> me thinks Kingwa shares factories with big name brands.  On his lunch break he can grab a chroma off the conveyor belt.  But shipping a $20 belden would be way too much time and money.
> 
> 
> and soon after "DIF Cables" was formed and the rest is history


Would be FredACables I guess.

@rsbrsvp : just made 3 new ones for friends and am on a break. It's a  pain to do and hard to find affordable wire. The last one was made with aliexpress neotech occ silver litz. It is still a  little bright so i can't unconditionally recommend it yet. As for making cable for fellow headfier, i don't have time at the moment.


----------



## PLGA

FredA said:


> Would be FredACables I guess.



R.I.P. Audioquest!   

Well, Fred, you could think about selling us DIY cables!  Some of us, like me, are too lazy!


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> As for making cable for fellow headfier, i don't have time at the moment.


yeah you guys will have to wait until after I get mine


----------



## Jackula

REAN1MAT0R said:


> I still not decided about HDMI cable(
> I'm afraid to miss the choice
> Kingwa said he likes wire world chroma



Why don't you just buy both and let us know which one is better?

I use the Chroma7 upon Kingwa's recommendation and I know Kingwa spent a lot of money trying HDMI cables.
It is much better than the Moshou flat HDMI I used for the review, the main improvement is it's less prickly, has a more balanced treble and more transparent midrange.
I also took the Chroma7 to a friend's house, some of his HDMI cables are well over $1000 and the Chroma7 was his favourite, the soundstaging and timbral clarity are really something on the Chroma7.


----------



## FredA

@REAN1MAT0R: with the change, get the BJC Belden serie fe. It is also much better than the Moshou IMO. And cost nearly nothing on amazon.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I found several companies who will make ACSS cabals for me using up-occ litz and I wanted to ask Fred, does gage thickness make a difference?

Some use 28 AWG, some 24 AWG, and some 22 AWG.  Can't find any thicker...    I always thought for analogue IC's that thicker is better but these ACSS cables are unique and it may not make a difference.

Please advise....


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I found several companies who will make ACSS cabals for me using up-occ litz and I wanted to ask Fred, does gage thickness make a difference?
> 
> Some use 28 AWG, some 24 AWG, and some 22 AWG.  Can't find any thicker...    I always thought for analogue IC's that thicker is better but these ACSS cables are unique and it may not make a difference.
> 
> Please advise....


I would go 26. This is the best i have tried. Thicker makes the sound rounder. 24 is still pretty balanced, a bit round.


----------



## Jackula

rsbrsvp said:


> I always thought for analogue IC's that thicker is better but these ACSS cables are unique and it may not make a difference.



For signal cables thinner is always better as long as it can deliver the current required at the lowest resistance, that's why Litz is popular since you can send more current over multiple smaller gauge cores. Best size you're aiming for are cores at 20 awg or thinner.

For example, my speaker cable is an 8 core at 18 AWG per core (well close enough to 20 AWG I guess), but when combined it is about 9 AWG.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I'm going for 24awg.  I'm afraid 26awg in silver may be to sharp in such an incredibly revealing system and a small amount of rounding is to my taste


----------



## FredA (Jan 24, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> I'm going for 24awg.  I'm afraid 26awg in silver may be to sharp in such an incredibly revealing system and a small amount of rounding is to my taste


Should be fine. Which specific litz will you use?


----------



## rsbrsvp

Ted from Headphone lounge is building it for me.  T2 silver stranded litz..

My headphone cables are made out of the same thing..


----------



## FredA (Jan 24, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> Ted from Headphone lounge is building it for me.  T2 silver stranded litz..
> 
> My headphone cables are made out of the same thing..


Whatever signature your headphone cables has, it should be the same if you go unshielded, which i favor. Shielded cables are slower/rounder.


----------



## Wynnytsky

rsbrsvp said:


> I'm going for 24awg.  I'm afraid 26awg in silver may be to sharp in such an incredibly revealing system and a small amount of rounding is to my taste


FWIW WireWorld's platinum 7 uses 23 awg solid silver and as of platinum 8 they've got to 28 awg silver clad OFC, so even those guys couldn't commit to one thickness for their top of the line.

I just found out the Photon USB cable is also solid silver (no idea what gauge)
Silver clad cables have not lasted with me (neither analog or digital).  The Platinum 7 and Photon have never once reminded me that silver is in the mix.  Once I heard them I lost all desire to roll USB cables.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> FWIW WireWorld's platinum 7 uses 23 awg solid silver and as of platinum 8 they've got to 28 awg silver clad OFC, so even those guys couldn't commit to one thickness for their top of the line.
> 
> I just found out the Photon USB cable is also solid silver (no idea what gauge)
> Silver clad cables have not lasted with me (neither analog or digital).  The Platinum 7 and Photon have never once reminded me that silver is in the mix.  Once I heard them I lost all desire to roll USB cables.


We are talking analog cables. For digital, things are very different.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> We are talking analog cables


I eventually rolled back all silver from my analog (the WBT solder stayed).

Power is cut and my system is disassembled.  This evening I'll be on a brand new service, dedicated 10awg metal clad line, and two 8ft rods going into earth.  Can't wait to see what this does to my noise floor.
I wonder what kind of break-in that needs?  I'm twitching like a dog waiting for bacon (the maple kind)


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> I eventually rolled back all silver from my analog (the WBT solder stayed).
> 
> Power is cut and my system is disassembled.  This evening I'll be on a brand new service, dedicated 10awg metal clad line, and two 8ft rods going into earth.  Can't wait to see what this does to my noise floor.
> I wonder what kind of break-in that needs?  I'm twitching like a dog waiting for bacon (the maple kind)


You should. The upgrade should be significant from the start.


----------



## DACLadder

Wynnytsky said:


> Power is cut and my system is disassembled.  This evening I'll be on a brand new service, dedicated 10awg metal clad line, and two 8ft rods going into earth.  Can't wait to see what this does to my noise floor.I wonder what kind of break-in that needs?  I'm twitching like a dog waiting for bacon (the maple kind)



Adding another AC service ground was the most positive thing I have ever done for better AC power.  When solar panels were installed, by code, I had to add a cold water pipe ground to my electrical upgrade.  Afterward no more dimming lights when the A/C or fridge kicked on.  The electrician said I had a better connection (neutral) to the center conductor of the split phase power transformer. Made a true believer out of me!  What is amazing in the USA there is no 'neutral' wire from the house to the power transformer.  The neutral connection is all earth.  The grounding rod in my 50 yr old house was probably corroded by acidic soil.  

Good luck with your upgrade!  Looks like it will be massive!


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

has anyone tried cables from a Taiwanese manufacturer MPS ?
its not copy or fake it is standalone manufacturer 
they have hdmi, usb, power cords
silver plated hdmi model HD-280


----------



## motberg

frizzup said:


> The configuring of settings/options through the buttons on the DI-20 as explained on the Audio-GD website need further detail and clarity, somewhat confusing as to what some of the options mean/do. Intially got "no sound" having installed into the my rig replacing the Gustard U16. Eventually worked out that I needed to lower the DAClink setting in the JPLAY control panel to 20mhz to get 44.1, 88.2, 96, 176.2 and 192mhz sample rates working. I typically ran the Gustard U16 with a DAClink of 45mhz. So the drivers Gustard/Amanero require quite different settings, what this will mean to the sound/stage too early to say
> Frizzup


Yo frizzup !

Are you still using  JPlay with the DI-20?

Any comments,  problems,  suggestions ?

Thanks !


----------



## frizzup

Hi motberg,

Yes still using JPLAY Femto on Windows Server Core 2019 in dual configuration (CPC and APC). Using a JPLAY Femto USB card in the APC, Double Helix USB cable to DI-20, Wireworld Platinum HDMI cable to Master 7 DAC. Just sourced a BNC 75ohm cable to try BNC/ACSS vs HDI/I2S. Also have been running DI-20 in serial processing mode will try parallel mode. Only 2 issues at the begiining, getting USB Driver installed into Windows 2019 Server Core and JPLAY DAClink parameter working to cover 44.1khz through to 192khz. DAClink = 20 seems to be the sweet spot.

frizzup


----------



## Bech (Jan 27, 2020)

anroj said:


> Hi Zachik, I can answer #1 based on my experience of owning both the U12 and a DI-20 (non-HE). Firstly, from a usability standpoint, the DI-20 is plug and play with the Amanero driver I previously installed for my R8. No issues with firmware, no glitches - just 100% music. The build of the DI-20 is much more robust and solid. I love the large display and the easy switching of functions. As far as the sound qualities, I find the U16 to be accurate, but dry in comparison to the DI-20. The U16 is quite good, but the DI-20 is much better and soundstage three-dimensionality, bottom-to-top extension, tightness of bass, musical flow, and body. I have about 500 hours on the DI-20 and the sound is still improving. I was listening to Autumn Leaves - Jacintha, and for the first time in my system, her voice was actually in front of the speaker plane. I had never experienced that before. Previously, I was able to get good depth and width of the soundstage, but all performers shared the same lateral plane. Last night was the first time on good recordings where the performer(s) were in front of the instruments, that I was able to get that 3-D realism of soundstage.



Hi
 
I had the first Audio GD DI for several years and consider the DI20 or DI20HE.​

Right now I have another USB/SPDIFF converter, which I have compared with the Gustard U16.
My currrent USB/SPDIFF is clearly better than Gustard U16 – but with external clock (oscilloquartz ocxo) the U16 becomes better!
Better in the same way as described in this thread between U16 without clock and DI20 / DI20HE.

Is there anyone who can describe the difference in sound between Gustard U16 with external clock and Audio GD-DI20 or Audio GD-DI20HE ???
Much better or slightly better? And in whay way. ?


By the way - I asked Kingwa this about the difference between the DI20 and DI20HE:
"As far as I can see, the DI-20 and DI-20HE are similar but the HE seems to have some kind of a Power Conditioner in addition.
I have an ExactPower EP15A Power Conditioner. Will a DI-20 with EP15a come close to the DI20HE?"

Answer:
I think the DI20 +EP15A Power Conditioner can close or equality to the DI20HE , maybe the sound flavor has some different, our regenerative power supply had tune the sound like analog feeling.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I recall that the recommendation is that the DI20HE be plugged into the wall

Same for the DI20?

Is the DI20HE more likely to survive a power spike than the DI20?
If not I may try getting more high current outlets from my conditioner by putting a splitter in series -- maybe that's not far off from the sound of going directly to the wall.


----------



## Zachik

Bech said:


> By the way - I asked Kingwa this about the difference between the DI20 and DI20HE:
> "As far as I can see, the DI-20 and DI-20HE are similar but the HE seems to have some kind of a Power Conditioner in addition.
> I have an ExactPower EP15A Power Conditioner. Will a DI-20 with EP15a come close to the DI20HE?"
> 
> ...


Have anyone tried either DI20 or DI20HE connected to an isolation transformer? Specifically, wired for balanced power?
I wonder if either model would benefit from the balanced isolated power... and still trying to decide if/when I upgrade my Gustard U12 - should I go with the basic model (with best clocks) at $550, or splurge on the HE model for almost $1000...
(as a side note, I am still waiting for one of the folks that own both the HE and non-HE to compare them.......)


----------



## TitaniumDust (Jan 27, 2020)

I had two more questions/concerns about the DI-20 before I pull the trigger:

1. Has anyone tried the ACSS (BNC) output with a DAC not made my audio-gd?  The documentation says that most DACs are compatible, but I didn't know if this is true in practice.  Eventually I may be able to get an audio-gd DAC, but it will be a while.
2. I am using it with a Windows 10 PC, and the problem I have with my current U16 is playback issues like pops/clicks/etc when I use the driver.  I want this device to be trouble-free.  I want to use ASIO without issues for playback of PCM files <= 192kHz (and maybe DSD at a later time) using the ACSS or S/PDIF output.  I've seen some reports of issues in this thread, so I wanted to know everyone's experience so far who are using ASIO and Windows 10 with their DI-20.


----------



## Wynnytsky

TitaniumDust said:


> my current U16 is playback issues like pops/clicks/etc


I lived with that for a year or two -- the SU1's i2s port doesn't like my r2r7 and the xilinx/altera flashes didn't resolved it.
As of DI20HE that's all in the past!

In a week or so I'll get to test the ACSS output on some lampizators


----------



## Zachik (Jan 27, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> In a week or so I'll get to test the ACSS output on some lampizators


Looking forward to that one!!

Edit: I am curious especially how this ACSS output to the Lampizator compare to "normal" SPDIF (RCA) and AES/EBU.


----------



## newabc

TitaniumDust said:


> I had two more questions/concerns about the DI-20 before I pull the trigger:
> 
> 1. Has anyone tried the ACSS (BNC) output with a DAC not made my audio-gd?  The documentation says that most DACs are compatible, but I didn't know if this is true in practice.  Eventually I may be able to get an audio-gd DAC, but it will be a while.
> 2. I am using it with a Windows 10 PC, and the problem I have with my current U16 is playback issues like pops/clicks/etc when I use the driver.  I want this device to be trouble-free.  I want to use ASIO without issues for playback of PCM files <= 192kHz (and maybe DSD at a later time) using the ACSS or S/PDIF output.  I've seen some reports of issues in this thread, so I wanted to know everyone's experience so far who are using ASIO and Windows 10 with their DI-20.



Dear TitaniumDust, when I bought the DI-20, Kingwa said the SPDIF ACSS is compatible to most of DAC's SPDIF coaxial input. 

I am using an Audio-gd DAC produced 6 years ago. At that time, there was no SPDIF ACSS. DI-20's SPDIF ACSS output to my DAC works well.


----------



## TitaniumDust

Wynnytsky said:


> I lived with that for a year or two -- the SU1's i2s port doesn't like my r2r7 and the xilinx/altera flashes didn't resolved it.
> As of DI20HE that's all in the past!



Thank you Wynnytsky and newabc, much appreciated!  I think it is time to pull the trigger on a DI-20 90/98M.  I will most likely get the ball rolling tomorrow.  If anyone else has more info on my questions above, please do chime in!


----------



## FredA

TitaniumDust said:


> Thank you Wynnytsky and newabc, much appreciated!  I think it is time to pull the trigger on a DI-20 90/98M.  I will most likely get the ball rolling tomorrow.  If anyone else has more info on my questions above, please do chime in!


It is Chinese lunar New Year, so the buying process should be slowed down. It is an important holiday there.


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 29, 2020)

The DI-20HE passed the 600-hour mark yesterday. My perception of sound quality improvement since 500 hours is significant. I can not hear a difference between ACSS and AES/EBU outputs and since I am using the identical grade of cables from the same manufacturer, IMHO, I believe sound differences others hear is a cable difference, not an output difference. If others are using the same brand and grade of cable on both outputs and feel that there is a sound difference, please say so.
For the I2S HDMI output, I am using a different brand of cable but it does use OCC silver just like my other cables. However, this output does sound different to me, more open around the performers, greater separation and a far deeper soundstage. The soundstage width is only slightly wider. On the other hand, there is a trace of harshness to vocals and brass instruments with the I2S HDMI output that is less obvious on the other two outputs.  Remember, I have an M7S, not an R7.
With this setup, I can easily use the M7S to select the input that gives me the more favorable sound to my senses on each individual album. Hopefully, a future firmware update to the DI can combine the best of both worlds on one output.


----------



## TitaniumDust

FredA said:


> It is Chinese lunar New Year, so the buying process should be slowed down. It is an important holiday there.



Indeed it is spring festival time, which I think is wrapping up right about now.  My amp replacement being shipped from China has been delayed as well.  I'm not in any hurry as I always keep backup equipment for just this reason.  I was a bit bummed to find out from Kingwa that the Amanero drivers don't include an ASIO control panel where you can adjust latency/buffers but I did find another thread on these forums about a Windows registry hack where I may be able to adjust it.  Once I get the DI-20 and play around with it, I'll verify the hack works, and if it does, I will probably upload some tweaks that allow us lowly Windows users to get the best sound out of the DI-20.


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 28, 2020)

Since my Hi-Fi rack is direct to the right of my desk chair and this is where I mostly listen to music, another advantage of having a DI-20HE is by accepting the USB connection from my Aurender Music Server, now the USB input on the M7S is free to accept the USB output from my desktop computer so I can listen to YouTube direct to the M7S. (Before I was connecting the sound of my computer by feeding the USB to an iFi Black Label Nano and sending the Nano's fixed analog output to an input on my M9 preamp/headphone amp.)
Since the M7S should sound better than the Nano, I started comparing music files from the computer to M7S with the same music files from the Aurender/DI-20HE combo. The results were not even close. Do I even need to state the winner? 

I then noticed that Schiit was having a "Last Call" for the Eitr at a clearance price of $99. After a short "why not" thought passed through my mind, I ordered one and two days later it was here. Serious comparisons to the DI-20HE will have to wait until after the full 1000 hour burn-in of the DI and I am not expecting the Eitr to win; I just want to see how close it is. But of course, I had to give a quick listen. With the computer connected to the Eitr via USB and Eitr connected to the M7S RCA Coaxial input, the sound was greatly improved over the direct connection of the computer to M7S USB input. I then tried the Eitr coax output to the DI-20 RCA coax input. This is going to require a lot more listening tests (which will have to wait for the 1000 hour burn-in of the DI) but initially, I'm thinking that too much reclocking is going on here and the Eitr may be better off connected to the M7S input than the DI-20. And on top of everything, now the USB input on the M7S is free once again for some other future use.

The 1000 hour burn-in should be finished 13 February. Stay tuned for further impressions.


----------



## FredA

@TangoSierra

Given the price difference, which is 30x, no surprise here.


----------



## Tango Sierra

Tango Sierra said:


> For the I2S HDMI output, I am using a different brand of cable but it does use OCC silver just like my other cables. However, this output does sound different to me, more open around the performers, greater separation and a far deeper soundstage. The soundstage width is only slightly wider. On the other hand, there is a trace of harshness to vocals and brass instruments with the I2S HDMI output that is less obvious on the other two outputs.



Since I first posted this earlier today, I ordered a 0.3 meter WireWorld Chroma 7 HDMI cable. I want to see if the OFC copper tames the rough edge of vocals and brass without affecting the openness, soundstage and clarity of the DH Labs OCC silver cable I am using now.


----------



## FredA

Tango Sierra said:


> Since I first posted this earlier today, I ordered a 0.3 meter WireWorld Chroma 7 HDMI cable. I want to see if the OFC copper tames the rough edge of vocals and brass without affecting the openness, soundstage and clarity of the DH Labs OCC silver cable I am using now.


No harshness here with the BlueJeans hdmi.


----------



## JaMo

FredA said:


> No harshness here with the BlueJeans hdmi



+1
I am voting for the Blue Jeans cable. It is a cheap cable but very good cable. More expensive for me living in Sweden, but still worth to buy it.
/Jan


----------



## Zachik

Using an Intel NUC as music server - I am wondering what would be a better upgrade for me: a dedicated music sever such as the Innuos Zen MK3, or the DI-20HE (to be used with my NUC)?
I have read several people here have dedicated music servers (I remember Aurender being mentioned), which claim their USB is superior to "standard PC". Does the DI-20 improve even on those "better" USB ports?  And does anyone here have experience specifically with the Innuos Zen Mk3 by any chance?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Zachik said:


> Using an Intel NUC as music server


I'm on my 3rd NUC and I can't find anything for them to do well.  With audio the fan is too loud.  4k video is unwatchable because the audio/video track offset is way off and gets worse as you watch.  The web browsing might be better than a smart TV but it's far from effortless.  

This week I built this for someone
https://secure.newegg.com/Wishlist/...1053476&RandomID=3393214311232420200129044636
For media I have a standing prejudice against fans and CPUs above 35watts and this computer squashed them.  It combines 65w Zen+ desktop horsepower, 4k video playback @25C, temps never go past low 40s, and the fan is *silent*.  I made fanless computers that were louder than this because of DC squeal coming off the mobo.
I'm using the supplied wall brick but I presume my 200watt HDPlex would improve something.

When Zen3 is out I'll probably build this exact same thing for myself.  It has two NVMe slots and would be equally good in an office running Roon server.


----------



## Zachik

Wynnytsky said:


> I'm on my 3rd NUC and I can't find anything for them to do well. With audio the fan is too loud.


Forgot to mention my NUC is in one of those fanless silent cases: https://www.newegg.com/p/287-0009-00039?item=9SIAHR691S5991
So, definitely NOT loud. I am curious, though, whether moving to a dedicated hardware like the *Innuos Zen Mk3* be an audible improvement. 
I do understand their claims that the LPS and the separate power and clock for the USB out (for DAC) should have better results, at least measured results. But the big question: is it audible difference? and especially if I choose to use a DI-20 (or DI-20HE) between whichever music server and my DAC...
BTW, my NUC is running Win10 and Jriver Media Center software.


----------



## Tango Sierra

FredA said:


> No harshness here with the BlueJeans hdmi.


OK, it is cheap enough so I ordered a 12" BJ from Amazon. Now I can compare my DH Labs, the Blue Jeans, and Kingwa's recommended WireWorld Chroma HDMI cables. 
Right now I am comparing so many different things my head is spinning.


----------



## PLGA

Tango Sierra said:


> Right now I am comparing so many different things my head is spinning.



Totally agree with that. Many of us, chronical audiophiles, make many changes in so little time that sometimes its hard not to get confused. 

For me, a new component has to make an immediate (with only few hours of burning time), noticeable and unequivocable change in sound quality to be worthwile. For instance, today my system sounds like never before and it continues to improve day by day, but I'm not really sure wich component is changing the most as I have several of them burning at the same time!!! 

A few days ago, I put the Audioquest Niagara 1200 AC filter and it made a change right away, so I considered worth the investment, but later on the system continued to improve and I dont really know wich component is improving the most: the Niagara, the DI-2 or some cables and valves also in their burning period.  I think Im going crazy!  

I will do a couple of upgrades more (on their way) and I will stop for a while. My walet will also be relieved.


----------



## TitaniumDust

Pretty soon I'll be burning in a new DI-20, a new amp and a new silver BNC/SPDIF cable, all at the same time.  I'll just take my head out of the sand after 1000 hours and see how things went.


----------



## Bech (Jan 30, 2020)

Zachik said:


> Forgot to mention my NUC is in one of those fanless silent cases: https://www.newegg.com/p/287-0009-00039?item=9SIAHR691S5991
> So, definitely NOT loud. I am curious, though, whether moving to a dedicated hardware like the *Innuos Zen Mk3* be an audible improvement.
> I do understand their claims that the LPS and the separate power and clock for the USB out (for DAC) should have better results, at least measured results. But the big question: is it audible difference? and especially if I choose to use a DI-20 (or DI-20HE) between whichever music server and my DAC...
> BTW, my NUC is running Win10 and Jriver Media Center software.



I used to have my music stored on the internal SSD harddisk in my iMac (with good fancontrol) using Audirvana or Roon as player and an USB/SPDIFF converter between the iMac and my dCS Upsampler and DAC.
I was quite satisfied with this solution – but shifting to a Innous ZEN MK 3 was a quite significant improvement. Recommendable from my point of wiew!! Even though I only played music stored on the ZEN I was quite surprised that bettering the LAN connection (LAN cable + LPS to the wifi-reciever) was necessary before i came in Zen  with my new investment!

The USB output port from the Innous is probably good – but not better than Innuos have launched a Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker!  And the important thing is also: how good is the USB-port on your DAC!

In my situation it doesn’t matter because my DAC don’t have an USB-port, so I need an USB/SPDIFF converter.
Therefore i repeat my question from earlier – as I know some of you have experience with the Gustard U16 with external clock - and it is not clear if some of the earlier U16 comparisons is with external clock 

I had the first Audio GD DI for several years and consider the DI20 or DI20HE.

Right now I have another USB/SPDIFF converter, which I have compared with the Gustard U16.
My currrent USB/SPDIFF is clearly better than Gustard U16 – but with external clock (oscilloquartz ocxo) the U16 becomes better!
Better in the same way as described in this thread between U16 without clock and DI20 / DI20HE.

Is there anyone who can describe the difference in sound between Gustard U16 with external clock and Audio GD-DI20 or Audio GD-DI20HE ???
Much better or slightly better? And in what way ?


----------



## anroj

Bech said:


> I used to have my music stored on the internal SSD harddisk in my iMac (with good fancontrol) using Audirvana or Roon as player and an USB/SPDIFF converter between the iMac and my dCS Upsampler and DAC.
> I was quite satisfied with this solution – but shifting to a Innous ZEN MK 3 was a quite significant improvement. Recommendable from my point of wiew!! Even though I only played music stored on the ZEN I was quite surprised that bettering the LAN connection (LAN cable + LPS to the wifi-reciever) was necessary before i came in Zen  with my new investment!
> 
> The USB output port from the Innous is probably good – but not better than Innuos have launched a Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker!  And the important thing is also: how good is the USB-port on your DAC!
> ...


To my ears and in my system, the DI-20 sounds much better than the U16/C16 combination. While the Gustard combination is very good, i found the soundstage to be more compressed on the same recordings, lacked a bit of body, backgrounds weren't as black, and most importantly to me, wasn't as musical. I now use the C16 with my DI-20 and the difference is even greater.


----------



## Zachik

PLGA said:


> A few days ago, I put the Audioquest Niagara 1200 AC filter and it made a change right away, so I considered worth the investment, but later on the system continued to improve and I dont really know wich component is improving the most: the Niagara, the DI-2 or some cables and valves also in their burning period. I think Im going crazy!


What did you have before the Niagara 1200 ?
What did it improve? I mean how would you describe the improvement?


----------



## Zachik

anroj said:


> To my ears and in my system, the DI-20 sounds much better than the U16/C16 combination. While the Gustard combination is very good, i found the soundstage to be more compressed on the same recordings, lacked a bit of body, backgrounds weren't as black, and most importantly to me, wasn't as musical. I now use the C16 with my DI-20 and the difference is even greater.


So I am guessing / assuming that coming from the Gustard U12 - the change / improvement would be even greater?
I am still waiting for people to post some DI-20 vs. DI-20HE comparisons. Several people on this thread posted they have both...


----------



## Zachik

Bech said:


> shifting to a Innous ZEN MK 3 was a quite significant improvement. Recommendable from my point of wiew!!


Can you please try to describe WHAT was improved? I would gladly upgrade to the Zen MK3 if the improvement in sound is there (and *audible to me*)!



Bech said:


> Even though I only played music stored on the ZEN I was quite surprised that bettering the LAN connection (LAN cable + LPS to the wifi-reciever) was necessary before i came in Zen  with my new investment!


I also play ONLY locally stored music. In my case, the Zen will be connected to an Eero Pro (mesh WiFi network) - just like this one: https://eero.com/shop/individual-eero-pro
Are you saying that I would benefit by dumping the generic Cat 5 Ethernet cable, and instead use what? Better LAN cable? (if so - which do you use / recommend?)
I do not even know if LPS exists for the eero... Being fed by USB Type C connector - I guess I could get a LPS that outputs USB Type C...



Bech said:


> The USB output port from the Innous is probably good – but not better than Innuos have launched a Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker! And the important thing is also: how good is the USB-port on your DAC!


The Phoenix cost more than the Zen... Thanks, but not gonna happen here   I think my DAC has a pretty good USB. Besides, I use a Gustard U12, and will consider upgrade to the DI-20 or DI-20HE in the near future.

Thanks @Bech for your notes so far. I really appreciate it, and hope you can answer my questions above


----------



## PLGA (Jan 30, 2020)

Zachik said:


> What did you have before the Niagara 1200 ?
> What did it improve? I mean how would you describe the improvement?



Well, I have a dedicated AC line (right from the entrance of the house), then a Holton DC Blocker and then the Niagara 1200, wich its connected to to all of gear, except for the two subs, wich are connected to one of the circuits of the house. All of the power cables from the DC Blocker to the system are DH Labs, some AC Power Plus bulk model and some Red Wave bulk model (this one pretty good). The Niagara replaced a Bada LB-5600, wich is also a pretty decent budget AC filter.

I believe that the AC power I was using, before the Niagara, was already pretty clean. If you use it to filter a dirtier AC line, I guess the differences could be bigger.

Tha biggest change I've found is lower noise floor. Meaning that better detail, blacker background, less sibilance, better tone... well, more realism. I guess as I already had a pretty clean AC line, the change was not dramatic, but noticeable easily. I also guess that the more resolution the system has, the more you will be able to hear the difference.

I would LOVE to change my R8, DI-20 and M1 to the HE versions, but to me it would be too expensive and the currency in my country (Argentina) devalues all the time, making harder and harder for us to buy things abroad, so that's why I have all this AC conditioners and filters to resemble the HE versions.  

By the way, I have three PS Audio Noise Harvesters. In my system, they made NO difference in sound whatsoever.


----------



## Thenewguy007

PLGA said:


> Well, I have a dedicated AC line (right from the entrance of the house), then a Holton DC Blocker



Does the Holton DC Blocker actually work? Did you hear any humming before it & then it eliminated the hum?


----------



## Zachik

PLGA said:


> The Niagara replaced a Bada LB-5600, wich is also a pretty decent budget AC filter.


I currently use the PS Audio Dectet, which is a budget "power center", that according to PS Audio: "offers both common mode and differential mode filtering". Someone (on a different thread) claims the Niagara 1200 is much better. I will definitely consider it in the future!



PLGA said:


> All of the power cables from the DC Blocker to the system are DH Labs, some AC Power Plus bulk model and some Red Wave bulk model (this one pretty good).


I am using WireWorld power cables. They are thick and flat, which make them a pain in the butt to route and handle! 
My power cables are in the price range of the "Plus" cable by DH Labs. The Red Wave are much more expensive...


----------



## newabc

Zachik said:


> I am still waiting for people to post some DI-20 vs. DI-20HE comparisons. Several people on this thread posted they have both...



I think DI-20HE has more jobs done on power regeneration and DI-20 has only LPS built-in comparing to its HE version. You can ask Kingwa about them directly.


----------



## Zachik

newabc said:


> I think DI-20HE has more jobs done on power regeneration and DI-20 has only LPS built-in comparing to its HE version. You can ask Kingwa about them directly.


I am actually waiting for people's impressions on the difference. Not technical spec comparison.
I am sure the HE model is technically better. However, if people report they can hear NO difference, then maybe the improvements done with the HE do not add anything to the end user...


----------



## PLGA

Thenewguy007 said:


> Does the Holton DC Blocker actually work? Did you hear any humming before it & then it eliminated the hum?



No, I didnt have any hum noticeable.

The Holton DC Blocker made a similar change to the Niagara 1200 and the Bada 5600, it cleaned the sound. Im sure the Niagara its better than the Bada (it also costs five times more), but I cannot compare it against the DC Blocker as today they are connected in a serial configuration and to make the comparison will require a lot of work, wich Im not willing to do. 

Both made a good impact in sound quality and I believe they make a different job, so I keep them both working together and the Bada is filtering one subwoofer AC line.

By the way, I find Audio-gd products very sensitive to AC quality, as most digital components. I totally recomend AC conditioning for them.


----------



## Jackula

Thenewguy007 said:


> Does the Holton DC Blocker actually work? Did you hear any humming before it & then it eliminated the hum?



It removed hums and pops for me. And similar to @PLGA 's experience, it also improved the SQ in addition to removing DC.


----------



## peppyjoe

Anyone tried reversing power cord polarity with di20he? I tried and it sounds more detailed and spacious in my small room but bass is less.


----------



## Zachik

Bech said:


> Even though I only played music stored on the ZEN I was quite surprised that bettering the LAN connection (LAN cable + LPS to the wifi-reciever) was necessary before i came in Zen  with my new investment!


I plan to connect the Zen server to an Eero Pro (https://eero.com/shop/individual-eero-pro)
Are you recommending high-end Ethernet cable? Which do you use?
Also, which LPS are you using? I do not even know if LPS exists for the eero... At least I could not find any that is custom made for it.


----------



## Tango Sierra (Jan 31, 2020)

Zachik said:


> I plan to connect the Zen server to an Eero Pro (https://eero.com/shop/individual-eero-pro)
> Are you recommending high-end Ethernet cable? Which do you use?
> Also, which LPS are you using? I do not even know if LPS exists for the eero... At least I could not find any that is custom made for it.


When I changed from using my computer as a server to the Aurender server I thought that that was a very nice improvement in music sound quality from my own music files and a slight improvement in Tidal streaming.

When I borrowed one of my Audio Sensibility Power cables from an analog component to try on the Aurender I thought, wow, that makes an even bigger difference in the music sound quality from my server and the Tidal server but there was still was a big difference between my server and Tidal's server.

When I added a two meter WireWorld Starlight 8 ethernet cable between my cheap desktop ethernet switch and my Aurender, the SQ difference between my server and the Tidal sever became very small. I took the WireWorld Starlight to my brother's house to try on his Innous Zenith MKII and asked him if it made a difference. Within two minutes of listening, he picked up his phone and ordered one.

An upgraded switch is in my future plans.


----------



## Bech (Feb 1, 2020)

Zachik said:


> Can you please try to describe WHAT was improved? I would gladly upgrade to the Zen MK3 if the improvement in sound is there (and *audible to me*)!
> 
> 
> I also play ONLY locally stored music. In my case, the Zen will be connected to an Eero Pro (mesh WiFi network) - just like this one: https://eero.com/shop/individual-eero-pro
> ...



I made an A-B test yesterday between my iMac and Innuos ZEN as source. It took some time to shift back to the iMac, and I thought it sounded pretty OK and wondered if the ZEN was overkill. But shifting back proved I was wrong. Less distance to the music, less flat, voices and bas better defined and in general more naturel and “right” sounding.

I have improved my chain before my upsampler/DAC the past years and in general all improvements are in the same direction.

Try to watch Hans Beekhuyzen channel – ex. the videos about SOTM starting with the earliest. Darko has a good review off the ZEN as well.

Abouth the LAN cable.  My first impression af the ZEN was that it was definitely better than the iMac but I felt I missed something. My friend with the Gustard U16 came by with his new hifi swich an other LAN gear – and this helped a lot! Next day I borrowed an used Audioquest carbon LAN cable – and was in zen from first minute – I felt more calmness an magic in the music. Later I have improved even more.

About the level of the U12 (and improve the power-supply) – se here:
https://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1172


----------



## Bech (Feb 1, 2020)

anroj said:


> To my ears and in my system, the DI-20 sounds much better than the U16/C16 combination. While the Gustard combination is very good, i found the soundstage to be more compressed on the same recordings, lacked a bit of body, backgrounds weren't as black, and most importantly to me, wasn't as musical. I now use the C16 with my DI-20 and the difference is even greater.



Thanks - just the clarification I needed.
After approx. 2 months I still can feel what is missing from my short experience with the Gustard U16 with external clock!!!  I will probably go for the DI-20 - using a power conditioner I think the DI-20HE will be overkill.


----------



## Zachik

Bech said:


> I made an A-B test yesterday between my iMac and Innuos ZEN as source. It took some time to shift back to the iMac, and I thought it sounded pretty OK and wondered if the ZEN was overkill. But shifting back proved I was wrong. Less distance to the music, less flat, voices and bas better defined and in general more naturel and “right” sounding.


Good stuff - thanks!  I am actually getting a Zen Mk3 for trying at home and A/B with my fanless NUC based music server.



Bech said:


> Try to watch Hans Beekhuyzen channel – ex. the videos about SOTM starting with the earliest. Darko has a good review off the ZEN as well.


I did watch Darko's review when I first started to consider the Zen... I will look for Hans Beekhuyzen review. Might have watched it long ago (if that is an old review). Will watch it either way today!  Thanks for suggesting it.  



Bech said:


> Next day I borrowed an used Audioquest *carbon* LAN cable – and was in zen from first minute – I felt more calmness an magic in the music. Later I have improved even more.


AQ does not have a "carbon" LAN cable...   They have Pearl, Forest, Cinnamon, Vokda and Diamond (see: https://www.audioquest.com/cables/digital-cables/rj-e-ethernet). I am curious which have you tried?


----------



## Zachik

Bech said:


> Thanks - just the clarification I needed.
> After approx. 2 months I still can feel what is missing from my short experience with the Gustard U16 with external clock!!!  I will probably go for the DI-20 - using a power conditioner I think the DI-20HE will be overkill.


I am still waiting for someone to compare DI-20 to DI-20HE...... (hopefully more than 1 person, so we can read several opinions)


----------



## Bech

Zachik said:


> AQ does not have a "carbon" LAN cable...  They have Pearl, Forest, Cinnamon, Vokda and Diamond (see: https://www.audioquest.com/cables/digital-cables/rj-e-ethernet). I am curious which have you tried?



Oh yes the do. Google is your friend 
Search for “ audioquest carbon lan” and my cable is hit 1:  https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-cat7-carbon-rj-e-ethernet-cable-custom


----------



## Monsterzero

Wynnytsky said:


> @Monsterzero
> A friend just ordered the lampi amber3 (delta sigma) so in 3 weeks I'll get to compare it's usb input vs it's AES from my di20he
> Maybe the atlantic (discrete ladder) will be present that day as well.


Wondering if you have had time to check this combo out yet?


----------



## Zachik

Bech said:


> Oh yes the do. Google is your friend
> Search for “ audioquest carbon lan” and my cable is hit 1:  https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-cat7-carbon-rj-e-ethernet-cable-custom


Interesting!!! 
I have only checked AQ's website. Wonder why it is not there... Thanks and apologies.
Judging by price - it is NOT a crazy expensive cable, and yet improves audio (compared to non-brand el-cheapo LAN cable). Good to know 
From some reviews and discussions I have been reading in the last couple days - another good option is Supra (I own their USB cable which is great and reasonable priced).


----------



## ProLoL

Anyone knows hows the Singxer su 6 compares to DI-20HE?


----------



## Tango Sierra

Zachik said:


> I am still waiting for someone to compare DI-20 to DI-20HE...... (hopefully more than 1 person, so we can read several opinions)


I only recall one person saying he had both and he said he would post his opinion of the differences when he had the chance to spend enough time doing the comparison. I doubt you are going to find very many if any more are owners of both.


----------



## jimmychan

ProLoL said:


> Anyone knows hows the Singxer su 6 compares to DI-20HE?


DI-20HE > U16 > SU6 > SU1


----------



## FredA

The di20he is a real high-end unit. It beats the u16 quite easily in my setup although the u16 is no slouch. It is well worth the asking price IMHO.


----------



## Zachik

Tango Sierra said:


> I only recall one person saying he had both and he said he would post his opinion of the differences when he had the chance to spend enough time doing the comparison. I doubt you are going to find very many if any more are owners of both.


I thought it was more than 1 person, but I could be wrong. I will take whatever I can... 
Either would probably wipe the floor with my Gustard U12


----------



## ProLoL

jimmychan said:


> DI-20HE > U16 > SU6 > SU1



U16 > SU6? what? the consensus is that SU6 > U16 and U16 > SU1 by a small margin.


----------



## jimmychan (Feb 3, 2020)

ProLoL said:


> U16 > SU6? what? the consensus is that SU6 > U16 and U16 > SU1 by a small margin.



In my setup the DI20HE beats U16 a big margin and U16 beats SU6 by a small margin.
I used to own 2 x U16, 2 x SU1 and 2 x SU6 and now just have 2 x DI20HE.


----------



## DACLadder

I completely agree with jimmychan.   U16 beats SU-6 by a small margin (soundwise).  Di20HE beats them all.   Why?  Less grain in the vocals, excellent soundstage, smooth highs, rich midrange, and great bass/ rhythm..

The DI20 is more versatile with many modes of operations and features.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

Tango Sierra said:


> Since I first posted this earlier today, I ordered a 0.3 meter WireWorld Chroma 7 HDMI cable. I want to see if the OFC copper tames the rough edge of vocals and brass without affecting the openness, soundstage and clarity of the DH Labs OCC silver cable I am using now.



I have given the 0.3m chroma 7 a good go over the past week. I think it's a good cable, but I could recall certain details being more audible with my 0.3m Starlight 7. Nevertheless, no harshness with the Chroma 7 and it's pretty affordable, so I would recommend it.

I have a 0.3m BJC FE cable to try now too for fun.


----------



## yukio1965

Have a good day everyone
My system is composed of a MacMini (late 2009, Intel Core Due 2.26 ghz, 8gb of RAM and 250 gb SSD hard disk) on which the Audirvana player is installed which uses the file library installed on an external hard drive from 4TB. The USB output of the Mac Mini is connected via USB to an AudioGD DI20 interface. The interface comes out in I2S with 0,5m HDMI Apollo V2 cable and enters the AudioGD Master 7 dac (2016 my, non singularity) which is bridged inside on IPS1-IPS0-ATT1-ATT0. The rest of the audio chain is composed of a Primaluna Prologue 3 tube preamplifier, a Lyngdorf SDAI2175 class D power amplifier and a pair of Scansonic MB2.5B speakers.
Since I use the DI20 interface, it happens to me that when the power is turned on, the right channel is reversed with the left one and that to restore the right channel I have to turn off the interface and turn it on again.
Has this small problem ever occurred to you too?
I specify that I do not use DSD files because the Master 7 does not work with this format.
For this reason I set up Audirvana in such a way that it would downgrade DSD to PCM for the DSD files present on my hard disk.
Let me know your experience on the subject and any advice on resolving the problem
Thank you
Alessandro


----------



## Baird GoW

So it's been a few years since I upgraded my system. My friend who I use to talk audio with died so I stayed away for a bit. I'm running a audiogd ref 10.32 via usb32. I plan to upgrade to R27 and get the DI-20HE. I cant afford both at the moment. Should I get the DI-20HE to use with my ref 10.32. Or upgrade to the R27 first. Thanks for opinions.


----------



## jimmychan

I would upgrade to R27 first, as this will have a larger improvement on SQ.


----------



## Baird GoW

Even if I would still be using USB?


jimmychan said:


> I would upgrade to R27 first, as this will have a larger improvement on SQ.


----------



## motberg

Baird GoW said:


> Even if I would still be using USB?


Audio-GD's current on-board USB is excellent with the USB related options (2 and 3 below)
  Below upgrade options had included in the Full upgrade version:
 1, Upgrade Femtosecond  Accusilicon *2 Femtosecond clocks, 
 2, Upgrade Crystek *2  on USB interface, 
 3, Upgrade USB interface with isolator and separate PSU,


----------



## rsbrsvp (Feb 6, 2020)

I have burnt in my DI-20HE, R-7HE. and HE-9 pretty well now.  Using the Blue Jeans cable that Fred recommended between the DI-20HE and the R-7HE, and a pure silver USB cable from my Mac Mini to the DI-20HE,- I can safely say that I have NEVER heard transparency and detail at this level with all of my headphones; nothing even close.  It is so far ahead of anything else I ever heard in terms of transparency; just totally un-coloured pure music.

No upsampling on the R-7HE; it is a downgrade.  NOS is the purest....

Thanks to those in this thread who encouraged me to purchase this equipment...


----------



## jimmychan

The DI-20HE is so good that I have purchased two of them. It beats all the DDC that I had before.


----------



## Wynnytsky

yukio1965 said:


> Since I use the DI20 interface, it happens to me that when the power is turned on, the right channel is reversed with the left one and that to restore the right channel I have to turn off the interface and turn it on again.
> Has this small problem ever occurred to you too?



Yikes I never heard any usb interface swap channels on reboot.  Would be helpful if you could recreate the issue with another DAC or interface.  You could live with the issue by leaving the DI20 on 24/7.  Did you figure out how to reverse i2s channels via front panel buttons?


----------



## Wynnytsky

@Monsterzero @Zachik



 



On first listen I heard my r2r7 (i2s in, xlr out) vs Amber3 (bnc in, rca out).  The Amber's freq response was flatter across the spectrum (which was easily accomplished by the DS dacs I've owned) while the r2r7 highlighted the mids and had a thunderous decay [especially on bass drums].  This wasn't embarrassing for the orig r2r7, but then I tried the Amber's USB input and it was a staggering improvement.  Next I'd learn the same was true for the Frips Terminator.  Until now the only other DAC I encountered [who's USB input couldn't be bettered] was my friend's W4S 10th anniversary.  And it's not just the DI20HE -- my friends LPS powered Matrix XSPDIF2 makes a welcome improvement over his older Lampi Atlantic's USB input, yet it totally held back the Amber3.

So in the r2r7's place I gave the Terminator the DI20HE's i2s output.  Initially I favored the Terminator for having XLR outputs (more drive for my passive preamp), it carried notes longer, and matched the Amber's flat freq response.  Though even on BNC the Amber3 showcased greater dynamics.

Overall the Terminator is set further back (a sure audiophile trait), and while notes have more decay it somehow is able to do a better job untangling busy passages.

The Amber3 is bolder, with notes reaching further into the room, occupying more of the floor with less respect for your personal space.  This form of engagement reminded me of Gustard interfaces and DACs, and usually it's a combo meal with a side of treble fatigue, but that wasn't the case here.  Switching back to the Terminator I got the impression that it errored on the side of caution.

The Terminators XLR outputs which were 3 clicks louder than the Amber.  When we engaged Amber's high-gain output it became 3 clicks louder than the Terminator.  Between doing that and removing the USB interface from both DACs, the tables then turned in favor of the Amber for me.  Everyone else thought term+amber were both winners and even the Amber's owner recommended I spring for the Terminator, so I guess these are matters of personal taste.


----------



## Zachik

@Wynnytsky - thanks for the detailed comparisons!
To summarize: (please correct me if I got it wrong)
a. Source -> USB cable -> Amber 3 
sounded *better* than:
b. Source -> USB cable -> DI-20HE -> BNC to BNC cable -> Amber 3 

Is that what you're saying? *Amber 3 owners should NOT add the DI-20HE to the sound chain?*


----------



## Monsterzero

Wynnytsky said:


> @Monsterzero @Zachik
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for checking this out and posting,but I am a bit confused. Are you reporting the Amber sounds better or worse sans theDI-20?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Monsterzero said:


> Thanks for checking this out and posting,but I am a bit confused. Are you reporting the Amber sounds better or worse sans theDI-20?



The Amber3's USB input easily bested coax from the Matrix x-spdif2 and Belden BNC from the DI20HE.  I didn't try feeding coax from the DI20HE.

Something else I observed -- the terminator is cold to the touch while my r2r7 (non-he) get's nice and warm.  Even the brass footers heat up.


----------



## Monsterzero

Wynnytsky said:


> The Amber3's USB input easily bested coax from the Matrix x-spdif2 and Belden BNC from the DI20HE.  I didn't try feeding coax from the DI20HE.
> 
> Something else I observed -- the terminator is cold to the touch while my r2r7 (non-he) get's nice and warm.  Even the brass footers heat up.


Thanks! You saved @Zachik and I some cash,which is a rare occurrence in this hobby.


----------



## Zachik

Wynnytsky said:


> The Amber3's USB input easily bested coax from the Matrix x-spdif2 and Belden BNC from the DI20HE. I didn't try feeding coax from the DI20HE.


The Amber 3 "borrows" its USB circuit design from the much more expensive models, as far as I understand.
In fact, Fred (Lampizator distributor in the US) has told me: "My music servers are heavily specialized but I haven't heard a better transport than my USB source."



Monsterzero said:


> Thanks! You saved @Zachik and I some cash,which is a rare occurrence in this hobby.


Yup!!


----------



## Wynnytsky

Lampi's don't have i2s inputs and only USB and I2S support high bandwidth.  So the amber3 result wasn't a huge surprise.  However I was feeding terminator i2s (asio) and the group immediately preferred my switch to USB (asio).  That was more damning to me.

I should have taken the opportunity to try coax and the vodka hdmi, but I was too into listening and we started swapping power cords.


----------



## Monsterzero

Ha...power cables IMHO should be the first thing one upgrades after the main components are on hand.
I purchased 3 of the C-Marc Lessloss power cables and the improvement in SQ was startling to say the least.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Wynnytsky said:


> Lampi's don't have i2s inputs and only USB and I2S support high bandwidth.  So the amber3 result wasn't a huge surprise.  However I was feeding terminator i2s (asio) and the group immediately preferred my switch to USB (asio).  That was more damning to me.
> 
> I should have taken the opportunity to try coax and the vodka hdmi, but I was too into listening and we started swapping power cords.



How was the comparison between the 3?


----------



## Zachik

Wynnytsky said:


> Lampi's don't have i2s inputs and only USB and I2S support high bandwidth. So the amber3 result wasn't a huge surprise.


The USB input is being internally converted to I2S by the Amber 3, before being fed into the DAC itself. I guess if I2S was an option - it would bypass this USB-->I2S stage...


----------



## Wynnytsky

The one on the right ($800 mad scientist) had the lightest touch, leaving things more intact, and that's a good thing if your conditions are ideal, but you could only know that by evaluating these cables.  The Verastarr in the middle had more impact (ie: more filtering), and the $3k synergistic research [for digital] had greatest impact depending on which combination of capacitors you used.  My friend said it's giving him amazing results on his LPS.  It's asking price on the synergistic is $800.

What's not in my pic is the triode labs 7plus, which I'm really digging.  @Monsterzero litz recommendation is higher end -- will add that to my hifishark search list.


----------



## Zachik

Monsterzero said:


> Ha...power cables IMHO should be the first thing one upgrades after the main components are on hand.
> I purchased 3 of the C-Marc Lessloss power cables and the improvement in SQ was startling to say the least.


I will do some testing on my Amber 3 with the C-Marc vs. my MUCH MUCH cheaper power cable tomorrow......


----------



## Monsterzero

Wynnytsky said:


> The Verastarr in the middle had more impact (ie: more filtering),


Mikey Powell of Verrastarr does some magic in his cables,adding a mix of crystals and stone pebbles into the plug cavity.
Ive yet to hear one of his creations,though I'd like to.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Zachik said:


> I will do some testing on my Amber 3 with the C-Marc


you've got that in your possession?



Monsterzero said:


> Ive yet to hear one of his creations,though I'd like to.


I can't wrap my head around the prices of these wires, but if one pops up @25% retail, and I can hear it in my system first, then it has my attention.
That's how it went with the triode labs on the di20he and the veratarr is carrying the r2r7 nicely.


----------



## Zachik

Zachik said:


> I will do some testing on my Amber 3 with the C-Marc





Wynnytsky said:


> you've got that in your possession?


I got 1 C-Marc as a loaner. Going to ship it back very soon, but will experiment with it tomorrow on my Amber 3.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Has anyone tried the SOTM tx-USBultra before the D-20HE?
Is it an improvement or degradation or a lateral move???

Also- even if it is an improvement- what if you have an OXCO double oven clock attached to the DI-20HE; is the SOTM still an improvement?

I would appreciate any comments for those who have tried it..


----------



## Zachik

@Wynnytsky - I have spent couple hours today, swapping back-and-forth between my cheap-but-good-quality hospital-grade power cord ($11 from Amazon), and the C-Marc power cord.
The C-Marc is VERY impressive in terms of look and feel. No doubt about that!
In term of sound, when plugged to my Amber 3 DAC - I could hear a *small* improvement. I think the sound was a little smoother. Noise floor might have been a hair lower.

My conclusion:
Improvement is there, but it is small, and a very personal decision (as usual) whether or not that improvement is worth $1,000 or so.


----------



## Wynnytsky

a friend get's his Aries2 in March and hopefully there will be a round #2 with some of the same gear.





Monsterzero said:


> adding a mix of crystals and stone pebbles into the plug cavity



uh oh that sounds remarkable familiar.




if you never let a Swede take a dump on your DAC then you really can't knock it, can you?










Watching this guy was like watching the first reality show and not being certain if it was real or theater.  The stuff Coconut Audio made was so funny but [in true comedic form] he never joked about it and had no shame even with the company's spectacular ending.


----------



## ToddN

rsbrsvp said:


> Has anyone tried the SOTM tx-USBultra before the D-20HE?
> Is it an improvement or degradation or a lateral move???
> 
> Also- even if it is an improvement- what if you have an OXCO double oven clock attached to the DI-20HE; is the SOTM still an improvement?
> ...



I continue to keep my fully optioned SOTM tx-USBultra before my D-20. Both are clocked by a Mutec Ref10 and feed my Chord M-Scaler/Dave combo with a DH Labs 110ohm AES with a 110 to 75ohm AES to BNC adapter at the M-Scaler end. It and the external clock still add additional resolution,  mainly in micro details of the recording, giving a more precise view of the soundscape, improving width, depth, placement, density and decay. 

I’m always stunned when there is still more information to be retrieved In an already extremely resolving system! This is through a 115db/W horn system in a 20’x 35’ sound room. I just can’t get over a soundstage that is so full and dense with no gaps in the 15’ width between the speakers! I could not be more pleased with the purchase of the D-20, which replaced a Gustard U16.(both out performed  USB input of the M-Scaler) I opted to go with the D-20 and not the HE, since my system runs off the grid from a battery powered pure sine-wave inverter.

Hope that helps.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Is there anyone using the DI-20 who has tested an external clock and who prefers the built in clock over the external clock???


----------



## BlakeT (Feb 12, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> Lampi's don't have i2s inputs and only USB and I2S support high bandwidth.  So the amber3 result wasn't a huge surprise.  However I was feeding terminator i2s (asio) and the group immediately preferred my switch to USB (asio).  That was more damning to me.
> 
> I should have taken the opportunity to try coax and the vodka hdmi, but I was too into listening and we started swapping power cords.



Hi Wynnytsky,

Just a quick point of clarification here.. ....   you are saying your group preferred the sound of the Termi using its USB input over the sound of the Termi using the Termi's i2s input through the DI-20?

My wallet hopes that is what you are saying


----------



## Wynnytsky

BlakeT said:


> you are saying your group preferred the sound of the Termi using its USB input over the sound of the Termi using the Termi's i2s input through the DI-20?



Yeah there were five of us listening.  While the Amber3 was much better on USB (no i2s) the Terminator was a little better on USB (vs di20he + belden bonded-pair hdmi).  I'm looking forward to trying this again when my friend get's his Aries2 (no i2s).

In other news a friend in FL told me his Matrix xspdif2 with an Audioquest Chocolate bested USB on both his direct stream and terminator.  He just got the Belden bonded-pair hdmi today and he said it SMOKED the Audioquest so there's an account that contradicts mine.  Who knows.

I love my 2017 r2r7 with the di20he though I really should take a sanity check and test it's USB again (haven't done that in years).  ATS square diffusers arriving Friday.


----------



## Jackula

Wynnytsky said:


> Yeah there were five of us listening.  While the Amber3 was much better on USB (no i2s) the Terminator was a little better on USB (vs di20he + belden bonded-pair hdmi).  I'm looking forward to trying this again when my friend get's his Aries2 (no i2s).
> 
> In other news a friend in FL told me his Matrix xspdif2 with an Audioquest Chocolate bested USB on both his direct stream and terminator.  He just got the Belden bonded-pair hdmi today and he said it SMOKED the Audioquest so there's an account that contradicts mine.  Who knows.
> 
> I love my 2017 r2r7 with the di20he though I really should take a sanity check and test it's USB again (haven't done that in years).  ATS square diffusers arriving Friday.



Complete opposite of my experience, I found the DI-20HE to the Terminator over I2S (using the WireWorld Chroma7) the best sound I ever got with the Terminator, and pretty much went in the order of I2S > AES > USB. It was the most neutral and transparent presentation. Just shows the difference in synergy and interpretation, not really right or wrong.

My settings might also be a bit different to yours, I was running it on NOS with oversampling on Roon, and it's got the latest DSP upgrades.


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Feb 13, 2020)

UsoppNoKami said:


> I have given the 0.3m chroma 7 a good go over the past week. I think it's a good cable, but I could recall certain details being more audible with my 0.3m Starlight 7. Nevertheless, no harshness with the Chroma 7 and it's pretty affordable, so I would recommend it.
> 
> I have a 0.3m BJC FE cable to try now too for fun.



I have given the BJC FE 0.3m HDMI cable some time to run in my rig. It's a decent cable, cheap too. I still believe the Starlight HDMI gives a touch more detail and air than the other two, so I'm leaving that in going forward for IIS. 

On the other hand, a few days ago I put in this Analysis Plus AES/EBU cable.




Cable looks and feels nicely made. Sounded a bit hot when first put in, but settled down quickly. Nicely resolving, smooth sounding even while burning in.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I am having difficulty finding external cocks with the .3Vpp to 3.0Vpp.

I found one I like alot but t is 1.6V output which is 3.2Vpp.

Will it work or can I expect problems??  Can I buy an attenuator perhas??


----------



## Jandu

rsbrsvp said:


> I am having difficulty finding external cocks with the .3Vpp to 3.0Vpp.
> 
> I found one I like alot but t is 1.6V output which is 3.2Vpp.
> 
> Will it work or can I expect problems??  Can I buy an attenuator perhas??



https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

Something like this would work, provided that you have a good power supply and a scope to tune it.


----------



## JaMo (Feb 14, 2020)

Hello all,

I wonder how many of You DI20/HE owners who runs or have tried the EXT XO input with one or even better, a few versions of external XO's (OCXO's)..?
I am running both a GPSDO with a Trimble 34310-T and a pair of Oscilloquartz 8663-xs board. In my case they all works fine and the sonic improvements with them is easy to spot compared to the internal Accusilicons 90/98 in the HE-version. And those Accusilicon's are not bad at all. For me everything is fine and as expected. .. It should be nice to hear of Your findings.

Please report what Your findings are. For You who not already tried the EXT XO I absolutely recommend You to try it out.

/Jan


----------



## Baird GoW

Has anyone here used a Rednet and compared it to the DI-20HE?


----------



## rsbrsvp

JaMo said:


> wonder how many of You DI20/HE owners who runs or have tried the EXT XO input with one or even better, a few versions of external XO's (OCXO's)..?
> I am running both a GPSDO with a Trimble 34310-T and a pair of Oscilloquartz 8663-xs board. In my case they all works fine and the sonic improvements with them is easy to spot compared to the internal Accusilicons 90/98 in the HE-version. And those Accusilicon's are not bad at all. For me everything is fine and as expected. .. It should be nice to hear of Your findings.
> 
> Please report what Your findings are. For You who not already tried the EXT XO I absolutely recommend You to try it out.




I am finding it hard to find OXCO's with .3Vpp-3.0Vp.   Most on ebay output 3.3Vpp.    Will it work anyway or is the output too strong?

I just ordered a Morion MV89A double oven OXCO.   I believe it is highly regarded.  The board will ave three 50 ohm BNC outputs so I can connect to the D-20HE and R7-HE and if I choose- also connect to my SOTM tx-usb ultra.  I hope the experiment works...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CDM4-const...075451?hash=item4436e9e97b:g:DDAAAOSwqiRccoSn


----------



## JaMo (Feb 16, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> I am finding it hard to find OXCO's with .3Vpp-3.0Vp.   Most on ebay output 3.3Vpp.    Will it work anyway or is the output too strong?
> 
> I just ordered a Morion MV89A double oven OXCO.   I believe it is highly regarded.  The board will ave three 50 ohm BNC outputs so I can connect to the D-20HE and R7-HE and if I choose- also connect to my SOTM tx-usb ultra.  I hope the experiment works...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CDM4-const...075451?hash=item4436e9e97b:g:DDAAAOSwqiRccoSn



I think You will be very pleased with the MV89A. It has a phase noise of -105dB @ 1Hz. Give it a good 12V PSU, a metallic housing and feet with some protection for mechanic vibrations. When it is up to the work, let us know...

Edit. I was a bit too fast reading. The phase noise of -105dB /1Hz is for the 5MHz version. I still search for the 10 MHz numbers...(Sorry)

Edit 2. Found it: -100 dBc/1 Hz,-130 dBc/10Hz,-145dBc/100Hz,-150 dBc/1000Hz. Not bad at all.

Thanks/Jan


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

rsbrsvp said:


> I just ordered a Morion MV89A double oven OXCO. I believe it is highly regarded. The board will ave three 50 ohm BNC outputs so I can connect to the D-20HE and R7-HE and if I choose- also connect to my SOTM tx-usb ultra. I hope the experiment works...


I plan to do the same
but with preordered Mutec REF 120SE - waiting it on may-june
it has only two 50ohm outputs so I ordered 75ohm version of Sotm Usb Ultra Special Edition
I plan to use Cybershaft 50ohm bnc cables and some hifi brand 75ohm

Guys which setting of di-20 do you use Serial mode or Parallel mode ?


----------



## JaMo

REAN1MAT0R said:


> Guys which setting of di-20 do you use Serial mode or Parallel mode ?


I am running parallell mode and it works great for me.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I bought two double oven OXCO's on eBay which I just received.  Around $50 a piece.

Both work with both the DI-20HE and the R-7HE in parallel mode with no bugs or issues.

It does sound different thean the internal clocks.  The sound is more transparent- but it is thinner and to my ears way to sterile.  So far I do not like the external clocks.  They may be technically superior- but they are not pleasant to my ears. 

The clocks are used OXCO's so I don't believe burn-in will help the clocks themselves  but should I expect burn in time to help anyway because there DI-20HE and R-7HE have never had an external clock plugged into them and the input sections of these components may need burn-in- or is this just the way external clocks sound?


----------



## REAN1MAT0R

OCXO for 50$ sounds different to OCXO for 5000$


----------



## motberg

rsbrsvp said:


> I bought two double oven OXCO's on eBay which I just received.  Around $50 a piece.
> 
> Both work with both the DI-20HE and the R-7HE in parallel mode with no bugs or issues.
> 
> ...



A friend of mine who did a lot of comparisons with clocks concluded the power supply was similar in importance to the clocks themselves.

A couple days ago, I again had a problem in my system where the sound changed for the worse - I thought for sure that my beloved vintage 12AU7 RCA Clear Top tube was going bad. 
It ended up that it was not the tube - my U16 had switched to the internal clock from the LT3045/LPS  powered GPS disciplined 10Mhz clock input...
(normally I cannot see the INT/EXT indicator due to the U16 is facing backwards)


----------



## roni44

motberg said:


> A friend of mine who did a lot of comparisons with clocks concluded the power supply was similar in importance to the clocks themselves.
> 
> A couple days ago, I again had a problem in my system where the sound changed for the worse - I thought for sure that my beloved vintage 12AU7 RCA Clear Top tube was going bad.
> It ended up that it was not the tube - my U16 had switched to the internal clock from the LT3045/LPS  powered GPS disciplined 10Mhz clock input...
> (normally I cannot see the INT/EXT indicator due to the U16 is facing backwards)



I make sure my U16 is on EXT each and every time I turn on my system, unfortunately, U16 will revert back to INT often for no reason.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I let one of my OXCOs burn in overnight.   It now sounds noticeably better than the internal clock.


----------



## JaMo

A good advice is to keep the OCXO with power on 24/7 even if the rest of the gears cools down from time to time. Multiple heat ups of the OCXO's puts contaminations on the crystal carried by the vapor, inside the oven/chambre. This in it self will lower the oscillating frequency. The OCXO usually have a power draw of about 5-10 W so it will not be a huge problem on the bill.
With an expensive OCXO I would definately follow this advice. I got it from a XO cut designer with many years in the field. I have unfortunately "lost" the pdf file somewhere in my NAS-archive. Will post it when I find it.


----------



## JaMo

JaMo said:


> Will post it when I find it.


Found it! Please read. Our OCXO's are in general SC (Stress Compensated) 
/Jan


----------



## .Sup

Hi all, I am interested in adding this to my AGD Ref 5 that has an old Tenor chip in. Would the DI-20 be a good upgrade? I am also wondering why isn't there an optical input?


----------



## FredA (Feb 28, 2020)

motberg said:


> A friend of mine who did a lot of comparisons with clocks concluded the power supply was similar in importance to the clocks themselves.
> 
> A couple days ago, I again had a problem in my system where the sound changed for the worse - I thought for sure that my beloved vintage 12AU7 RCA Clear Top tube was going bad.
> It ended up that it was not the tube - my U16 had switched to the internal clock from the LT3045/LPS  powered GPS disciplined 10Mhz clock input...
> (normally I cannot see the INT/EXT indicator due to the U16 is facing backwards)


I added parallel caps on  my units' ocxo voltage pin,  0.01uf and 0.1f ceramics, a 2.2f film,  even additonal electrolytics, and a pair of expensive 3.3.uF,  to the original 1000uf and surface mount ceramic. I also added some ceramic bypass to the reference voltage pin. I just soldered the smaller caps directly underneath. The bigger ones are hooked up to available ground plane holes and through a pair of 24awg silver wires soldered again underneath.  This gives a very ugly mod but the upgrade the ocxo provides is approx. 3x the original one. Same with the u16 and another modded ocxo unit i had.

Only issue is only the serial mode with i2s works without a phase/popping glitch every 3 minutes.. Still, the internal xos are clearly beaten and sound quality with this and the series fe hdmi cable is awesome.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I am having difficulty finding external cocks with the .3Vpp to 3.0Vpp.
> 
> I found one I like alot but t is 1.6V output which is 3.2Vpp.
> 
> Will it work or can I expect problems??  Can I buy an attenuator perhas??


Should work. My 3.3vpp unit works fine with serial/i2s.


----------



## JaMo (Feb 29, 2020)

.Sup said:


> Hi all, I am interested in adding this to my AGD Ref 5 that has an old Tenor chip in. Would the DI-20 be a good upgrade? I am also wondering why isn't there an optical input?



Yes, the DI20 will better things many levels. The fact that the DI lacks TOSLINK (Opt input) is a calculated tradeoff. Some people also wanted to have a HDMI-input. Also that was excluded. The EXT XO 10MHz input was prioritized and we who are using it are grateful for that function. It still has to be refined for some but for me it is all flawless.

I suggest You to add an HDMI input board to the order, and replace the Tenor with it. Another good solution is to use the SPDIF (coax) output with a good 75 Ohm cable.
Good luck.

(Edit. After looking at pictures of the REF 5 I realized that HDMI-input is not easy done.)

/Jan


----------



## .Sup

Jan thank you very much for your reply. What version of DI-20 do you recommend? I don’t have any external clocks. I would use iPad>cck>DI>Ref 5


----------



## JaMo

.Sup said:


> What version of DI-20 do you recommend?


It is depending on what future thoughts You have about this. Are You having plans to upgrade Your dac/amp/speakers/headphones? In that case pick the DI20HE with the regenerated power supply. If You like what You have today..? You may chose the "just" DI20 but then be sure to add the Accusilicon 90/98 XO's. 
I have the DI20HE myself but I am certain the one without "HE" also will make You happy as well.
/Jan


----------



## yukio1965

In your opinion, is it important to use a high quality USB cable between the Mac Mini (or pc) and the DI 20 interface? I say this because the differences between USB cables that I perceived by connecting the Mac Mini to the Master 7 dac are no longer so tangible since between these two I inserted the DI 20 (from which I then go out in I2S towards the Master 7). What do you think of it?


----------



## JaMo

The DI20 has a galvanic isolation between the dirty outside (USB) and clean inside (DI's "guts").That in itself should be the answer but it isn't.
I still can hear differencies between my cables. In the end it comes down to impedance, resistance, capacitance and inductance. How You achieve it. I don't like overpriced components or cables. I builded my own USB cables with solid silver wires. In test they sound the best in my rig with the DI20HE. I have no recipe. Test cables. Lend from friends just to come up with what You like. If You are lucky a cheap cable may do it for You.  Or go my way... build Your own cables

You should  invest in Blue Jeans Cables, their HDMI is very good and dirt cheap
/Jan


----------



## FredA

JaMo said:


> The DI20 has a galvanic isolation between the dirty outside (USB) and clean inside (DI's "guts").That in itself should be the answer but it isn't.
> I still can hear differencies between my cables. In the end it comes down to impedance, resistance, capacitance and inductance. How You achieve it. I don't like overpriced components or cables. I builded my own USB cables with solid silver wires. In test they sound the best in my rig with the DI20HE. I have no recipe. Test cables. Lend from friends just to come up with what You like. If You are lucky a cheap cable may do it for You.  Or go my way... build Your own cables
> 
> You should  invest in Blue Jeans Cables, their HDMI is very good and dirt cheap
> /Jan


Yep. Look for the series fe cable.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have the blue jeans fe and the Moshou Sikai 2.1 HDMI cables.

I have gone back and forth between them both many many times and every single time I prefer the Moshou.  It is a crisper sound- more like silver.  The fe perhaps is smoother.


----------



## Wynnytsky

motberg said:


> 12AU7 RCA Clear Top tube


had those cyro'd and I enjoyed them more than bugle boys



JaMo said:


> The DI20 has a galvanic isolation


true.  My Intona did nothing for the DI20HE but add an extra usb cable.  While the ISO Regen and the iFi igalvanic3.0 do other things besides galvanic isolation, I would think you'd be overpaying for those other things.



rsbrsvp said:


> The fe perhaps is smoother.


I can confirm that the DI20HE + FE sounds like a really happening bar mitzvah



I didn't read old posts.  Anybody know what kind of delays we can expect from audio-gd due to corono?


----------



## FredA

They have been shut down for a month, Victor. 

Same here, by the way. The Intona has proven useless. The di20he does a great isolation job it seems.


----------



## ProLoL

Which one is the more liquid sounding? The U16 was quite liquid.


----------



## FredA

The  Di20He is, it made my system the most analog ever. Soundstaging, resolution are also superior, especially the former.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

I'm quite sure I never read on here people trying to connect DI-20 output clock with R7 input clock. On paper, having the same source could be a nice idea even if not as good as an external one. Some thoughts about?


----------



## FredA

The R7 only supports a 10Mhz input clock in the current state of things. So not possible.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> The R7 only supports a 10Mhz input clock in the current state of things. So not possible.


You mean that the DI-20 clock output is not a 10Mhz???


----------



## FredA

Il Cuffiotto said:


> You mean that the DI-20 clock output is not a 10Mhz???


It is either 256 times the sampling frequency or the bit clock, selectable from the front panel.


----------



## .Sup

its an input


----------



## FredA

The best thing you can do for not much money is to buy an ocxo on ebay, one with two outputs and connect both the DI20 and the R7 to it.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

Thanks Fred. 
I'm waiting for my 7-HE coming back from Magna. It will be converted to 2020 model, being "magnafied" too. This includes board to board silver wiring; R2R Magna Upgrade and the FULL DSP board upgrade. I can't wait


----------



## FredA (Mar 4, 2020)

Shoud be very nice. A good external clock makes a very noticeable difference. Haven't tried hooking up both the dac and di. I don't have the 10Mhz input on my r7he.

You will need a pair of rg58 or rg400 bnc cables. Look for a clock unit with output level between 0.3 and 3.0vpp.


----------



## FredA

I made a correction, it's 3.0vpp max, although it could possibly work with 3.3vpp, but better stay within 3vpp to be safe.


----------



## motberg

Wynnytsky said:


> had those cyro'd and I enjoyed them more than bugle boys
> 
> 
> true.  My Intona did nothing for the DI20HE but add an extra usb cable.  While the ISO Regen and the iFi igalvanic3.0 do other things besides galvanic isolation, I would think you'd be overpaying for those other things.
> ...



HA! mirror image wood stools - I am glad I am not the only one


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> had those cyro'd and I enjoyed them more than bugle boys
> 
> 
> true.  My Intona did nothing for the DI20HE but add an extra usb cable.  While the ISO Regen and the iFi igalvanic3.0 do other things besides galvanic isolation, I would think you'd be overpaying for those other things.
> ...



Just got it was video. Seems like you pretty much nailed the balance and that you get proper extension on both end. Great sound, for all I can tell.


----------



## JaMo

Yes, the sound is great. I miss the snow shovel.. ; )
/J


----------



## rsbrsvp (Mar 9, 2020)

I received my double oven OXCO (Morion MV89a) clock today.  It was custom built for me by "queens land"; a seller on ebay.  He used the 2009 OXCO which he said has the best specs.  He also made sure it had three Sine Wave 50ohm outputs.   One for the DI-20HE; one for the R-7HE and one if I ever want to use my SOTM tx-usbultra with an external clock.  Cost was $350.

Additionally, he built a beautiful casing around it for an extra $15;- it looks so professional.

Sonic results?  To compare this clock to the built in clock is literally a joke.  The transparency and detail retrieval of my system jumped several notches and blew away the other two double oven OXCO's I bought on ebay a month ago.. ABSOLUTELY STUNNING. His customer service was excellent as well.

Connecting the clock to the DI-20HE and the R-7HE is noticably better than when the external clock is only connected to one of the two components.

If you have the DI-20HE and R-7HE---- get this clock for the ULTIMATE in transparency.......


----------



## rsbrsvp

I am surprised now that my feelings about the HDMI cables is changing with the new OXCO.  I preferred the MOSHU over the Belkin with the standard clock but now it is a close call.  I may stick with the Belkin.
'
Also- upsampling was not to my taste with the standard clocks but with the new one- I do like "0" oversampling very much.  NOS is still purer, more like live music, and cleaner but "0" thickens the sound a bit with minimal damage to the purity.  Close call on this as well.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I received my double oven OXCO (Morion MV89a) clock today.  It was custom built for me by "queens land"; a seller on ebay.  He used the 2009 OXCO which he said has the best specs.  He also made sure it had three Sine Wave 50ohm outputs.   One for the DI-20HE; one for the R-7HE and one if I ever want to use my SOTM tx-usbultra with an external clock.  Cost was $350.
> 
> Additionally, he built a beautiful casing around it for an extra $15;- it looks so professional.
> 
> ...


Do you have pictures of the pcb and case the seller used, as i just ordered one...


----------



## rsbrsvp

No.  email me at tzvidovrubin@gmail.com and I'll try to get you some pics.

May take a few days for the response.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> No.  email me at tzvidovrubin@gmail.com and I'll try to get you some pics.
> 
> May take a few days for the response.


The seller sent me some so it won't be necesssary, Thanks.


----------



## newabc

Dear rsbrsvp and Fred,

It is so great to learn that a proved and obvious improvement by this external clock. Can you share the ebay/aliexpress link or the name and pictures of it here?


----------



## JaMo

Here is their link: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1-HIFI-DIY-...89A/333515921843?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

/Jan


----------



## FredA (Mar 11, 2020)

This is the original link but not the actual board the seller will use (sorry to contradict you, Jan).This board Jan linked supports multiple frequencies and thus includes a pll. Since all needed outputs are 10Mhz in our cases, this board will be used instead, which is the most common found on ebay:






This is not an expensive board, the expense is mostly made on the Morion mv89 oscillator or the year 2009, which is supposed to perform better. The seller customizes the output levels and the output types, square or sine. I ordered 2 squares and 1 sine.

I will compare to my current DAPU unit and let you know.


----------



## JaMo

Sorry for my spam/J


----------



## FredA

No offense.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I am very happy with my clock although I don't believe that it would stand up to a ultra expensive clock like the SOTM for $3,500.  If it would- SOTM would be out of business.

i just refuse to pay that kind of money for a clock.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I am very happy with my clock although I don't believe that it would stand up to a ultra expensive clock like the SOTM for $3,500.  If it would- SOTM would be out of business.
> 
> i just refuse to pay that kind of money for a clock.


A lot of money indeed. I will have my r7he fitted with a 10M input before i make such an investment. I like what the OCXO brings when applied only to the Di20HE anyway for now, there is a clear quality gain. At some point, i should send my dac in for an update.


----------



## rsbrsvp

to my ears- the OXCO has more effect on the R-7HE than the DI-20HE.  Just my two cents...


----------



## newabc

By the way, when I search MV89a on aliexpress.com, a link mentions AD9850 DDS chip with this OCXO(link). Will a specific chip make the whole board perform stabler as what it said?


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> By the way, when I search MV89a on aliexpress.com, a link mentions AD9850 DDS chip with this OCXO(link). Will a specific chip make the whole board perform stabler as what it said?


The mentioned AD chip allows frequency synthesis. So this board can likely output any frequency you want but this is a useless feature for using with the di20 or r7.


----------



## newabc

FredA said:


> The mentioned AD chip allows frequency synthesis. So this board can likely output any frequency you want but this is a useless feature for using with the di20 or r7.


You are right. All we need is stable and acurate 10mhz only.


----------



## newabc

When I search mv89a in ebay, this guy "queen*s_land" is selling these mv89a OCXO from year 2004 to year 2009 and newer one is more expensive. So I think, in a price range of these used mv89a series, there is possible that the accuracy is based on the age if they were made by the same material and same technology/formula: the younger is more accurate. 

The link to current mv89 series OCXO: http://www.morion.com.ru/catalog_pdf/10_MV89.pdf
The link to current Morion OCXO products: http://www.morion.com.ru/eng/oscillators/ocxo/


----------



## FredA

Not sure. The technology could have evolved a bit too. 

Also, Morion has developped a new model which is as good on paper as any ocxo out there. Must be very expensive.


----------



## ProLoL

Won't the C16 be better than all of those dyi clocks?


----------



## FredA (Mar 11, 2020)

ProLoL said:


> Won't the C16 be better than all of those dyi clocks?


Good question. Not sure but possibly. The c16 costs twice as much. They don't publish any number. If the ocxo is new, it can't match the specs of a quality used ocxo. For used ocxos, you have to trust the seller. Cybershaft sells units using used ocxos that are most likely better for still raisonable money i.e. around 1K. High-quality ocxos, meaning the crystal itself, sell for over 300-400 usd new. So a finished unit using such a crystal would sell for well over 1k. Top notch units use even better ocxos and sell for over 3k...


----------



## ProLoL

I'm going to buy either the SU6 or the SU2 + C16.
Don't have a realstate for the giant DI20, what should I go for from the two options I gave?


----------



## FredA

ProLoL said:


> I'm going to buy either the SU6 or the SU2 + C16.
> Don't have a realstate for the giant DI20, what should I go for from the two options I gave?


From feedbacks here, the regular di beats the su6. I don't know about the su2 but it normally should beat it too.


----------



## ProLoL

My aim is towards speed, so xmos would probably do. The topping d10 was ultra fast and suited my needs in terms of speed yet lacked everything else.
The U16 was too laid back and slow for my combo not to mention it had some lags with pc content even via I2S. Someone said it's not "bit perfect" ddc as the topping d10 and singxer su1.


----------



## FredA

I see. I had a bit of a speed problem with my speakers setup. I cured it using an interconnect with a bit more upper mids. As for digital, the target is always the lowest possible jitter for me. When everything is right, the sound becomes balanced, accurate and smooth.


----------



## JaMo (Mar 12, 2020)

Hi,
A while ago and after a period of struggles in my mind, I decided to aim high and buy a high end OCXO (10MHz Master clock).

In the best case, my Mutec REF10 SE-120  will be sent out from Berlin to me in Sweden, tomorrow. It is friday the 13'th tomorrow and the corona virus messes up things so I will not jump too high about this..yet. I think I will receive it monday or tuesday next week. Today I use Oscilloquartz 8663-XS with the DI20HE and the performance is very good as is. Because of this fact I finally decided to pull the trigger...and after that, the XO bottleneck is gone for good. I will absolutely report my findings.
/Jan


----------



## ProLoL

FredA said:


> I see. I had a bit of a speed problem with my speakers setup. I cured it using an interconnect with a bit more upper mids. As for digital, the target is always the lowest possible jitter for me. When everything is right, the sound becomes balanced, accurate and smooth.



Ofcourse silver will sound faster than copper, I'm aware of how to obtain more speed. From my experience xmos is simply the fastest and my U16 was the bottleneck.
Never heard my R2R11 playing music in blazing speed via coax with the Topping D10, also experienced a decrease in speed with the soekris dac1321 when pairing with the U16 compared to onboard xmos chipset.


----------



## FredA

ProLoL said:


> Ofcourse silver will sound faster than copper, I'm aware of how to obtain more speed. From my experience xmos is simply the fastest and my U16 was the bottleneck.
> Never heard my R2R11 playing music in blazing speed via coax with the Topping D10, also experienced a decrease in speed with the soekris dac1321 when pairing with the U16 compared to onboard xmos chipset.


To each his own approach. Synergy is key even for digital.


----------



## ProLoL

Absolutely, analog/digital/power cables, everything will tweak the sound and that's the beauty of it.


----------



## rsbrsvp

JaMo said:


> In the best case, my Mutec REF10 SE-120 will be sent out from Berlin to me in Sweden, tomorrow. It is friday the 13'th tomorrow and the corona virus messes up things so I will not jump too high about this..yet. I think I will receive it monday or tuesday next week. Today I use Oscilloquartz 8663-XS with the DI20HE and the performance is very good as is. Because of this fact I finally decided to pull the trigger...and after that, the XO bottleneck is gone for good. I will absolutely report my findings.
> /Jan



Where do I get the SE version?  I see not mention of it anywhere....


----------



## rsbrsvp

Has anyone tried the wire world Platinum 7 HDMI?

Curious how it compares to the Chroma 7 and the Belkin?


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> Where do I get the SE version?  I see not mention of it anywhere....



It is not officially released yet. It is planned to be done Q2 or Q3 this year. I was lucky to get a preproduction unit.
/J


----------



## Genna

After weeks of waiting finally some motion...next week my DI-20HE arrives and I'm very curious what happen after connecting the unit over I2S and clock to the R-7HE (2020)


----------



## JaMo

Genna said:


> After weeks of waiting finally some motion...next week my DI-20HE arrives and I'm very curious what happen after connecting the unit over I


Audio-gd is working hard to build and deliver after the long downperiod. Please report Your findings. Both initial and later ones
Thanks/Jan


----------



## joyck888

Hi guys,  I have purchased R27 and DI 20.  Items will be arriving in a week's period of time.

Newbie to this forum so please help me with understanding the setup the clock.

I see a lot of discussion on the clock, how do you connect this?    

1. USB + outside clock to input to DI 20  and output will I2S to DAC to R27?


----------



## JaMo

joyck888 said:


> Hi guys,  I have purchased R27 and DI 20.  Items will be arriving in a week's period of time.
> 
> Newbie to this forum so please help me with understanding the setup the clock.
> 
> ...


Hi,
You have to get a decent external Oscillator that produces 10 MHz sine- or squarewave and has a 50 Ohm BNC output of 0.3 to 3.3 V. This EXT XO has to be connected to the 10MHz input on Your DI. After that You have two options to connect to the R27. I2S/HDMI and SPDIF (coax 75 Ohm). Keep HDMI short (0.3-0.5m). SPDIF should be around 1 meter. (~1.2m is optimum due to risk of reflections when too short). All these cables should be of good quality. Also the 50 Ohm should also be of good quality. 

Forum members here can surely help You find good cable choices for reasonable money. 
/Jan

.


----------



## joyck888

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> You have to get a decent external Oscillator that produces 10 MHz sine- or squarewave and has a 50 Ohm BNC output of 0.3 to 3.3 V. This EXT XO has to be connected to the 10MHz input on Your DI. After that You have two options to connect to the R27. I2S/HDMI and SPDIF (coax 75 Ohm). Keep HDMI short (0.3-0.5m). SPDIF should be around 1 meter. (~1.2m is optimum due to risk of reflections when too short). All these cables should be of good quality. Also the 50 Ohm should also be of good quality.
> 
> Forum members here can surely help You find good cable choices for reasonable money.
> ...


Thank you. very helpful.   I am thinking to try out C16.   Does anyone in forum has R27 that can share the impression?


----------



## JaMo

joyck888 said:


> Thank you. very helpful.   I am thinking to try out C16.   Does anyone in forum has R27 that can share the impression?



At that price range I suggest You to also take a look at Cybersshaft's:  http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/soul2.html   It has only output but I am sure it is a very good XO for that money.
/J


----------



## joyck888

JaMo said:


> At that price range I suggest You to also take a look at Cybersshaft's:  http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/soul2.html   It has only output but I am sure it is a very good XO for that money.
> /J


This will be better than c16?


----------



## JaMo (Mar 16, 2020)

I cannot say. I haven't any experience of the C16 or the Cybershaft. What I know is that the Japanese company Cybershaft are specilized in making high end XO's. In fact among the best You can get. They know their game, so to say.

A very important value to look for is "phase noise". I should be as low as possible at 1Hz, 10Hz and 100Hz. Most imortant is 1Hz and < -100dBc is a good start. Lower numbers here will cost much more money. Exponential curve. Cybershaft write these numbers for us to read. Gustard doesn't as far as I know. People here may have had better luck than me finding them.

Edit. Found it. -100dBc/1Hz for the C16 https://h5.aliexpress.com/item/4000089315374.html
"Near-end phase noise @1Hz(TYP): -100dBc 
Short Stable (Allen Variance) (TYP): 2E-12"

/Jan


----------



## joyck888

JaMo said:


> I cannot say. I haven't any experience of the C16 or the Cybershaft. What I know is that the Japanese company Cybershaft are specilized in making high end XO's. In fact among the best You can get. They know their game, so to say.
> 
> A very important value to look for is "phase noise". I should be as low as possible at 1Hz, 10Hz and 100Hz. Most imortant is 1Hz and < -100dBc is a good start. Lower numbers here will cost much more money. Exponential curve. Cybershaft write these numbers for us to read. Gustard doesn't as far as I know. People here may have had better luck than me finding them.
> 
> ...


So the Cybershaft device is,
phase noise: -105dBc / Hz or less at offset 1Hz -128dBc / Hz or less at offset 10Hz
Allan dispersion Short-term stability Reference value TAU = 1sec 1.5E-12 or less (0.0015ppb / s) .

Not sure how much improvement that is over C16.

From Kingwa,

I have the Gustard C16 and tried it with the DI, with the C16 sound is a little better on transparency and detail , it may better for classis music listen, without the C16, sound is smoother it better for the voical listen in my mind.
I think you can try the Di and R27 with a good HDMI cable at first.
Kingwa


----------



## ToddRaymond

rsbrsvp said:


> Has anyone tried the wire world Platinum 7 HDMI?



I went straight to the top and got the Platinum 7, which is probably overkill for my SU-6 to R-28 setup.  Just didn’t want to keep upgrading HDMI cables.  The second hand (cryo treated from Audio Sensibility) Neotech 4200 I previously used was a great bargain, but the Platinum brought a noticeable improvement in resolution, clarity, and spatial... cohesion, if you could call it that.  More betterer.  Not quite the jump as from going from the TCXOs to Accusilicon 90/98M clocks, but kind of a similar, positive shift.


----------



## joyck888

ToddRaymond said:


> I went straight to the top and got the Platinum 7, which is probably overkill for my SU-6 to R-28 setup.  Just didn’t want to keep upgrading HDMI cables.  The second hand (cryo treated from Audio Sensibility) Neotech 4200 I previously used was a great bargain, but the Platinum brought a noticeable improvement in resolution, clarity, and spatial... cohesion, if you could call it that.  More betterer.  Not quite the jump as from going from the TCXOs to Accusilicon 90/98M clocks, but kind of a similar, positive shift.



*Wireworld Silver Starlight 5.2 Reference Standard HDMI Cable 2.0m , would this be good enough?    2 M length will have an impact?*


----------



## JaMo (Mar 16, 2020)

joyck888 said:


> 2 M length will have an impact?
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Yes, I2S over a HDMI cable with that length is going to pick up interferences. I2S is an "inside chassie" digital transfer methode that never was intended to go distanses between gears. Inside a shielded chassie it is working fine as jumps between circuit boards. Try to consolidate Your gears and keep the cables for HDMI and 10MHz short (0.3-0.5m). SPDIF is a professional serial signal transfer that is more robust to transfer longer distances. Keep high cable quality. And finally, for the 10MHz XO input-output, try to get a true 50 Ohm cable.
> ...


----------



## motberg

joyck888 said:


> *Wireworld Silver Starlight 5.2 Reference Standard HDMI Cable 2.0m , would this be good enough?    2 M length will have an impact?*


I once tested a 1M WW Starlight to a 0.3M Starlight, same model and year. The 1M worked, but seemed less coherent than the 0.3M.
IIRC, the longest HDMI cable I saw that was made and marketed specifically for i2s was 1M.


----------



## joyck888

motberg said:


> I once tested a 1M WW Starlight to a 0.3M Starlight, same model and year. The 1M worked, but seemed less coherent than the 0.3M.
> IIRC, the longest HDMI cable I saw that was made and marketed specifically for i2s was 1M.


Good to know, thx so much.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Does anyone know if the quality of the 50ohm BNC between OXCO and DI-20HE makes a difference?  There are 50ohm BNC cables for $5 and for $2000.  Any recommendations?  Is a pure OCC silver BNC cable overkill for this application or will it effect the sonics?

Also- Wireworld claims their best cable is the Platinum 7 which does not come in less than 1 meter length.  Any recommendations for a SILVER HDMI which is shorter?


----------



## rsbrsvp

ToddRaymond said:


> I went straight to the top and got the Platinum 7, which is probably overkill for my SU-6 to R-28 setup. Just didn’t want to keep upgrading HDMI cables. The second hand (cryo treated from Audio Sensibility) Neotech 4200 I previously used was a great bargain, but the Platinum brought a noticeable improvement in resolution, clarity, and spatial... cohesion, if you could call it that. More betterer. Not quite the jump as from going from the TCXOs to Accusilicon 90/98M clocks, but kind of a similar, positive shift.




Do you know where to get this cable in .3 or .5 meter?


----------



## JaMo (Mar 19, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> Does anyone know if the quality of the 50ohm BNC between OXCO and DI-20HE makes a difference? There are 50ohm BNC cables for $5 and for $2000. Any recommendations? Is a pure OCC silver BNC cable overkill for this application or will it effect the sonics?



As long as You get the correct cable type 50 Ohm's and the correct connectors on it You should be fine transfer a sine wave pulse. With square wave You should buy a TRUE 50 Ohm BNC cable. Cybershaft sells a semi rigid cable based on RG402 and all cables delivers with a individual test protocol. Decent money. If silver does anything good here, I don't know. On the 75 Ohm side for TRUE spec cables... There are crazy expensive around. I know that the Oyaide DB510 0.7 m (silver 75 Ohm) are used and working well. In this case the choice was made because the Oyaide was relative inexpensive compared. If the silver have any impact on the sound...I don't know

The important thing with clock transfer is the correct impedance to not get ringings. The pulse must be "undamaged".  For digital transfer (SPDIF+I2S over HDMI..) silver definately has an impact


----------



## rsbrsvp

There is an audio bacon write up on the mute R10 which insists che 50ohm cable makes a big difference..  He checked many cables and says the strongly effect tone


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> There is an audio bacon write up on the mute R10 which insists che 50ohm cable makes a big difference.. He checked many cables and says the strongly effect tone



Yes, different cables have different charactaristics. Many times it is deviation from a TRUE spec that does it. 
I found  the article from Audio Bacon: "...Now, technically these cables shouldn’t have an impact on the signal, just the timing. But each cable has it’s own resistance, inductance, and capacitance (they’re not zero)…so that sonic footprint will carry over.". I don't find any reason to argue against that.

When I get my REF10 I will test cables with it. I have invested in a TRUE spec 75 Ohm just to have a correct electrical specified cable to compare to. For 50 Ohm I have mil spec cables.  I hope my scope can show the differencies between the types.

/J


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Has anyone tried the wire world Platinum 7 HDMI?
> 
> Curious how it compares to the Chroma 7 and the Belkin?


I stopped searching after i got the Belkin. It is not a bottleneck in my system. My ocxo unit possibly is or the txcos inside the r7he.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> I stopped searching after i got the Belkin. It is not a bottleneck in my system. My ocxo unit possibly is or the txcos inside the r7he.



I have the belkin. the chroma 7, and the Moshou 2.1

The Moshou which is occ silver plated has the crispest most vivid sound- period.  The Chroma to my ears is the most transparent, natural, and smooth and is also the warmest of the three.  The Belkin is in the middle.  I prefer the Moshou at this point because it is brighter and fuller sounding than the others but I do believe it is the most coloured.


----------



## FredA (Mar 17, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> I have the belkin. the chroma 7, and the Moshou 2.1
> 
> The Moshou which is occ silver plated has the crispest most vivid sound- period.  The Chroma to my ears is the most transparent, natural, and smooth and is also the warmest of the three.  The Belkin is in the middle.  I prefer the Moshou at this point because it is brighter and fuller sounding than the others but I do believe it is the most coloured.


I prefer giving the tonality through analog cables. When a digital connection is right, you get the deepest tightest bass and the smoothest highs. Then you can adjust the analog cables. To each his approach.


----------



## joyck888

rsbrsvp said:


> I received my double oven OXCO (Morion MV89a) clock today.  It was custom built for me by "queens land"; a seller on ebay.  He used the 2009 OXCO which he said has the best specs.  He also made sure it had three Sine Wave 50ohm outputs.   One for the DI-20HE; one for the R-7HE and one if I ever want to use my SOTM tx-usbultra with an external clock.  Cost was $350.
> 
> Additionally, he built a beautiful casing around it for an extra $15;- it looks so professional.
> 
> ...


Hi, Is this unit better than the off the shelf gustard c16 ?    I guess only the R7 has the option for the external clock.   I will be running R27 so it will be for the DI only.


----------



## JaMo

Hi,
Despite the corona restrictions around, the Mutec REF10 SE-120 has arrived now and it has around 1,5 h since powered up. It is feeding the DI20HE and a Gustard U16 on the two 50 Ohm outputs. I also have a Mutec MC3+USB that is fed with a 75 Ohm (Mutec True 75 Ohm BNC cable). The first hour was nothing special to nice and then a bit boomy...now back to pleasant .. This clock will probably need a couple of weeks as the other XO's I have followed maturing... We'll see. To be continued..


----------



## red4765

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> Despite the corona restrictions around, the Mutec REF10 SE-120 has arrived now and it has around 1,5 h since powered up. It is feeding the DI20HE and a Gustard U16 on the two 50 Ohm outputs. I also have a Mutec MC3+USB that is fed with a 75 Ohm (Mutec True 75 Ohm BNC cable). The first hour was nothing special to nice and then a bit boomy...now back to pleasant .. This clock will probably need a couple of weeks as the other XO's I have followed maturing... We'll see. To be continued..



Hi! I would like to know how the DI20HE compare to MC-3+ USB? I have a MC-3+ USB, and previously had tried 2 units in serial, as well as connected to Ref10. The 2 units in serial was better than just 1. Just wondering if I should buy the second MC-3+ USB, or try another DDC like the DI20HE.


----------



## JaMo

red4765 said:


> Hi! I would like to know how the DI20HE compare to MC-3+ USB? I have a MC-3+ USB, and previously had tried 2 units in serial, as well as connected to Ref10. The 2 units in serial was better than just 1. Just wondering if I should buy the second MC-3+ USB, or try another DDC like the DI20HE.



Hi, 
I started by getting rid of the switched PSU in the MC3+USB. It was clean and a bit artificial sounding on its own 1GHz XO. With the Oscilloquartz as EXT XO it was much better...but after replacing the switched PSU with an Ultra Silent LPS (5V 3A) the MC3+USB climbed up to a higher league.  After that it was equally good as the DI. They both are winners now. The DI has HDMI output supporting "all formats" PCM+ DSD. It also has the S/P DIF coax that supports DoP besides the PCM. The MC3+USB reclocks streams from S/P DIF, TOSLINK, and AES/EBU. and converts DSD material. It has limitation on 192 kHz for PCM. It can handle DSD (WIndows) and DoP (Linux) and converts it to a first class PCM stream.
I have no idea of how good the "standard" REF10 is. I decided to "kill" this OCXO hunt by a real high end, refined unit.
I understand why Mutec uses the switched PSU....but it is degrading the units potential. My REF10 SE-120 has 25 hours powered on now and both the DI20HE and the MC3+USB are answering well on the new Master clock. It is still very early in the maturing process but it is possible to get glimts of what this will give when its settled in a few weeks. 
To sum up. The MC3+USB is a pretty locked down unit. Rigid and professional. After PSU-change... - For me it is an 100% useful unit with restoring (reclocking) a pretty dull and tired S/P DIF signal from an otherwise excellent  CD player. The automatic DSD/DoP to PCM conversion is spot on what I need to feed my TDA1541AS2 dac with. Brilliant stuff for me.  

I suggest You to go with Kingwa and the DI20HE. It is future proof and excellent sounding. Add at least an Oscilloquartz, Morion or similar EXT XO to it and You will find Yourself smiling, listening to Your music
/Jan


----------



## rsbrsvp

JaMo,

Do you still use the regenerative Iso?


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> JaMo,
> 
> Do you still use the regenerative Iso?



Not sure what You mean..? I still use the DI20HE and since january also the MC3+USB.... On the Power feed I use a medical grade UPS for the low level equipment (Pre, Dacs, DI, MC3, OCXO's)


----------



## red4765

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> I started by getting rid of the switched PSU in the MC3+USB. It was clean and a bit artificial sounding on its own 1GHz XO. With the Oscilloquartz as EXT XO it was much better...but after replacing the switched PSU with an Ultra Silent LPS (5V 3A) the MC3+USB climbed up to a higher league.  After that it was equally good as the DI. They both are winners now. The DI has HDMI output supporting "all formats" PCM+ DSD. It also has the S/P DIF coax that supports DoP besides the PCM. The MC3+USB reclocks streams from S/P DIF, TOSLINK, and AES/EBU. and converts DSD material. It has limitation on 192 kHz for PCM. It can handle DSD (WIndows) and DoP (Linux) and converts it to a first class PCM stream.
> I have no idea of how good the "standard" REF10 is. I decided to "kill" this OCXO hunt by a real high end, refined unit.
> I understand why Mutec uses the switched PSU....but it is degrading the units potential. My REF10 SE-120 has 25 hours powered on now and both the DI20HE and the MC3+USB are answering well on the new Master clock. It is still very early in the maturing process but it is possible to get glimts of what this will give when its settled in a few weeks.
> ...



Many thanks on your very detailed opinion. I thought about upgrading the SMPS with Paul Hynes LPS too, but heard that the delivery takes a while. Mutec distributor here is a friend, so I had Ref10 at my place for nearly 3 weeks (I helped my friend burn in the unit lol). After may be 10 days, the Ref10 sounded quite a bit better. So I am sure you will enjoy your SE120 a bit more after a while. For me, the SE120 is coming in about 6 weeks I was told. But my experience with the basic Ref10 was not too spectacular. Connected to MC-3+ USB, I heard may be 5% improvement. I had better result connecting Ref10 with SoTM network switch. Streaming Tidal was probably 10% better over standard full option SoTM switch. 
Are you using both the MC-3 and DI20HE at the same time? I mean in serial. Or are you using them on 2 different sources, or one at a time?
I will get the SE120 when it comes. But still deciding whether to upgrade the MC-3+ USB SMPS to LPS, or to sell it and buy the DI20HE to use with the SE120 instead.
I use Aurender N10 and Brinkmann Nyquist mk2. Previously, I only got best sound using AES output. So the Mc-3+ USB was used to reclock AES signal. But now, I am using a very good USB cable which sound as good as AES, so I am no longer limited to USB interface. This makes the DI20HE an interesting option.
Also heard that Denafrips will release their new DDC in May. Not sure how it will perform, but it is also a very attractive option.


----------



## rsbrsvp

JaMo said:


> Not sure what You mean..? I still use the DI20HE and since january also the MC3+USB.... On the Power feed I use a medical grade UPS for the low level equipment (Pre, Dacs, DI, MC3, OCXO's)




I thought you have a regen iso before your di-20.  

on another note I would appreciate a full report on the mutec clock.  These oxcos increase transparency and detail noticably but the sound is thinner and perhaps a bit clinical.  I understand the ref10 is very full sounding, which is to my liking and I am curious if the 120 is also full bodied.


----------



## JaMo (May 5, 2020)

red4765 said:


> (I helped my friend burn in the unit lol)


-How kind and sacrificing of You (lol!).
No, I don't use DI20HE and MC3 in serial. I have too much gears.. I let the DI20HE feed the R7, I2S via HDMI. The MC3+USB feed the TDA dac via AES/EBU and also spdif to R7. My Gustard U16 feeds the NFB27.77 via I2S/HDMI they all via Master 1 (pre) and via Gradient active XO to Master 3 (mid/treble Quad ESL) and 2 x Master 2's (Bass <110Hz, Gradient SW63's)
-Confusing? Not really...I don't play it all at once. One positive thing with both the DI and the MC3 is the multiple outputs simultaneously active.. You can crossfeed the dacs with the same stream so it is easy to alter and compare
/J


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> I thought you have a regen iso before your di-20.
> 
> on another note I would appreciate a full report on the mutec clock.  These oxcos increase transparency and detail noticably but the sound is thinner and perhaps a bit clinical.  I understand the ref10 is very full sounding, which is to my liking and I am curious if the 120 is also full bodied.



I will report my finding here in this thread.
/Jan


----------



## borrego

FWIW, Kingwa has just announced a new beta firmware for the DI-20 in audio-gd Chinese forum. One can email Kingwa asking for it.

I don't own the DI-20.


----------



## JaMo

Thanks @borrego


----------



## koonyue

Hi all, 

May I know if DI20 HE work with Gustard C16 10m clock? 

Thanks


----------



## JaMo

koonyue said:


> Hi all,
> 
> May I know if DI20 HE work with Gustard C16 10m clock?
> 
> Thanks



Hi, 
Yes, it will work just fine
/J


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> Yes, it will work just fine
> /J


So, I ordered a Mutec Ref 10 too. It will feed DI-20HE and R7-HE 2020 together. Any new consideration about maturation? What kind of 50 ohm cables are you using?


----------



## JaMo

Il Cuffiotto said:


> So, I ordered a Mutec Ref 10 too. It will feed DI-20HE and R7-HE 2020 together. Any new consideration about maturation? What kind of 50 ohm cables are you using?



Congratulations. For the moment I use a pair of mililtary spec. (RG223 from 1966) 1.0m. They are TRUE spec but a bit too long. I will replace them later with shorter ones (~0,5m). A RG400 based cable with true 50 Ohm connectors should be fine. Cybershaft sells semi rigid RG402-based cables with individual measure graphs with each cable. 
For 75 Ohm I have Mutec's own 0,5m cable.

The manual recommends two weeks but I expect a month to be fully matured and stabilized.
/J


----------



## chuongbeats

Could anybody help me to confirm this: I have an  old (but good sounding) Wadia 15 DAC with only BNC coaxial and AES port, and support at maximum 48khz sampling rate. 
Can it run smoothly with DI-20? And can I disable the DSD upsampling function of the DI-20?
Thank you!


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

chuongbeats said:


> Could anybody help me to confirm this: I have an  old (but good sounding) Wadia 15 DAC with only BNC coaxial and AES port, and support at maximum 48khz sampling rate.
> Can it run smoothly with DI-20? And can I disable the DSD upsampling function of the DI-20?
> Thank you!


Hi there. 
Your dac will work flawlessly with DI-20, just using a part of its immense potentialities.
One thing has to be remarked: DI-20 doesn't upsample files in any manner. It just "unmount" and "rebuild" in the best way possible usb or AES signals feeding it, either pcm or dsd independently. So, if you use just pcm in, you'll have just pcm out to your dac whatever output connector you need to use.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Here's the DI20HE with one of the earliest r2r7.  2ft Belden HDMI.  No clocks.  Passive pre is connected to the amps over 30yo Japanese single ended litz interconnects (Audio Tekne ARC-500).  The mics are getting 48v from a single USB3 connection.  I ordered something I can power from an LPS tap for my next video.




Next up is my evening walk and Quarantinis!


----------



## JaMo

Wynnytsky said:


> Here's the DI20HE with one of the earliest r2r7.  2ft Belden HDMI.  No clocks.  Passive pre is connected to the amps over 30yo Japanese single ended litz interconnects (Audio Tekne ARC-500).  The mics are getting 48v from a single USB3 connection.  I ordered something I can power from an LPS tap for my next video.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Beautiful!
/J


----------



## JaMo

The new official firmware (V3.9) for DI20/HE is up on Audio-gd webpage now: http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmware/DI/V3.9.rar

/J


----------



## peppyjoe (Mar 25, 2020)

JaMo said:


> The new official firmware (V3.9) for DI20/HE is up on Audio-gd webpage now: http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmware/DI/V3.9.rar
> 
> /J



How to upgrade instructions not clear

Edit: got it


----------



## Wynnytsky

peppyjoe said:


> How to upgrade instructions not clear
> 
> Edit: got it


Where'd you find them?  I see nothing of value on here


----------



## peppyjoe (Mar 25, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> Where'd you find them?  I see nothing of value on here



I follllowed same instructions as for Master 7  firmware and was able to flash

Poweroff di20he
Connect usb blaster to upgrade port on di20he and other end to pc usb
Poweron di20he
Flash firmware using quartus software
Poweroff di20he
Disconnect usb blaster from di20he and pc usb
Power on di20he
Enjoy

New firmware sounds very different than original one, more resolution, more space, more separation. Its like my equipment has changed. This is insane, my system cannot handle resolution, reverted now to original.  Will try back after few days 

Kingwa is making us experience a new sound every couple of months with frmware updates, and then poor people like me  who take a couple of momths to adjust to new sound and then.... vicious cycle


----------



## Wynnytsky

peppyjoe said:


> This is insane, my system cannot handle resolution, reverted now to original.  Will try back after few days


oh, me want some

would love to hear somebody try to flash over USB with the red button


----------



## peppyjoe

Wynnytsky said:


> oh, me want some
> 
> would love to hear somebody try to flash over USB with the red button



AFAIK red button is for amanero interface, dont press for more than 1 sec while di20 is on, otherwise the current  amnaero firmware will get erased and you would need to flash again.

USB blaster is needed to update di20 firmware.


----------



## Jandu

Wynnytsky said:


> Where'd you find them?  I see nothing of value on here


http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm


----------



## newabc

Does anyone compare the new firmware and old firmware of DI-20/DI-20HE paired with an audio-gd headphone amp through ACSS?

When I connected a C-2 amp through ACSS to my audio-gd Ref-5 and paired with DI-20 in the month I received DI-20(of cause with the original firmware), the resolution and separation were lifted to a very high level comparing to the traditional RCA connection between Ref-5 and amps.


----------



## Wynnytsky

THIS is what the Amber3's USB input sounded like.
It's like someone cracked open my DI and removed jumpers "homogeneous" and "congealed".
My dynamics increased at least 1 or 2dBs.  If your heavy on the silver you may need to dial it back to enjoy this.
Brutal separation and delineation.  There's 6ft social distancing between performers.
Lots of speed and air.  I'm still in NOS mode but I'm hearing the strengths of OS.
I don't recall a FW change ever being this profound on the r2r7.  Where the hell is @FredA?


----------



## peppyjoe

Wynnytsky said:


> Brutal separation and delineation.  There's 6ft social distancing between performers.



 Kingwa got some new superpowers.


----------



## FredA (Mar 26, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> THIS is what the Amber3's USB input sounded like.
> It's like someone cracked open my DI and removed jumpers "homogeneous" and "congealed".
> My dynamics increased at least 1 or 2dBs.  If your heavy on the silver you may need to dial it back to enjoy this.
> Brutal separation and delineation.  There's 6ft social distancing between performers.
> ...


I am here, Victor. You are refering to the new di20 fw? I have been beta-testing it for the last 10 days.

This 3.9 fw mostly helps with the external clock input. Some users were experiencing glitches every 3 min, with all outputs and settings (parallel/serial), except serial/i2s The good new is the glitches were totally cured. I get a sound quality upgrade using the serial mode. I now prefer serial to parallel. The spdif outs are also better than they were.  I mostly tried with the external clock and did little testing with the internal.

As for the external clock, i can't go without one because it raises resolution and bass extension even more. I just have a cheap modded ocxo i purchased on ebay.

I always applied social distancing to my gears and speakers: there are always in good shape. But i won't give them THE cure, it could change them forever.

@newabc yes. But I can't talk much about the internal clocks and a possible upgrade with them as i always use the external.

And about using the acss out on the ref5, it should be a very clear upgrade. Today, the rca and xlr outs have less of a gap with acss. But acss is alway clearly on top and worth favoring.


----------



## FredA

Big thank you to Kingwa!


----------



## FredA

In fact, i think the new fw sounds better resolved in parallel mode, it is amazing the level of details. But there is some more sub-bass in serial mode so all in all i favor it. But again the clarity of the parallel mode is outstanding. Perhaps i would need to use a rounder sounding cable with it.


----------



## DACLadder (Mar 27, 2020)

The new 3.9 firmware fixes my long running issue of external 10M clock playing back correctly in the DI20's parallel data mode.  I still like serial mode but gives me the option of trying parallel mode without worry.


----------



## FredA (Mar 26, 2020)

The di20 had only one real issue as far as i was concerned, namely with the 10Mhz clock input. Now it is without issue beside a slight humming noise with the he version, but all in all, it is a fantastic product, sort of the turntable of the digital interfaces. It is so good, i can safely say the talk of the hour is not real compared to what comes out of the di-20. Cause to make it real,  you have to sincerely make it as such with all the truthfulness and honesty God has given you. That is exactly what my friend Kingwa did, for those who still enjoy old values like these. Be all truth seekers blessed, with a great mention to Kingwa for paving the way. Amen.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I like the thick tapestry of parallel mode so much that I silly danced my way into a sprained ankle.
Qingwa better lawyer up.

Synergistic Tungsten xlr interconnects arrive noon tomorrow.


----------



## jimmychan (Mar 26, 2020)

That’s true! I have to mention again. The DI-20HE is the best digital transport I have so far.
Since I own the DI-20HE, I saved money from selling my Aurender N10, dCS NB, Naim Uniti Core and not to mention the Singxers, Gustards....etc. I have the upgrade and get some money back, this is the best scenario of playing Hifi.

Thanks to KingWa to offer us some incredible audio equipment at a reasonable price.


----------



## FredA

Same here @jimmychan . Sold my u16, a usb cable, don't need the intona anymore.


----------



## LOUD

Hello all,

I ordered a DI-20HE on March 17th and received it on the east coast of USA on the morning of March 26th, which I think is incredible under the circumstances!

This is my first Audio GD product purchase and I had a number of questions regarding interfacing the HDMI output to my Metrum Dac which has RJ-45 I2S Input. I cannot say better things about the customer service that I have received from Kingwa.  It was above and beyond what I expected from any company, let alone one in another country half way around the world.

The DI-20 is burning in and I haven’t listened to it as yet, but will post my impressions once I get an idea of it’s performance.

Kingwa confirmed my unit has the 3.9 firmware installed, but updates was a thing that I did not consider before.  I am using a Mac mini running Audirvana.  Can anyone tell me what I need to do in order to update the firmware in the future?  Do I have to install a Windows partition in order to install USB blaster or is there a similar product available for the MAC OS?

Thanks,

Lou D
Wilton, NH


----------



## joyck888

Day 2 - R27 with DI20 is amazing only 3 hrs since yesterday but still awesome Dac + Pre.


----------



## FredA

LOUD said:


> Kingwa confirmed my unit has the 3.9 firmware installed, but updates was a thing that I did not consider before.  I am using a Mac mini running Audirvana.  Can anyone tell me what I need to do in order to update the firmware in the future?  Do I have to install a Windows partition in order to install USB blaster or is there a similar product available for the MAC OS?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ...



 You will need a usb blaster. Anyone got one recently to suggest?

Also you need to register on altera website and download the Quartus  programmer distribution. You don't need the big Quartus zip file, just the small distribution for the programmer. This is only available for Windows.


----------



## FredA

This is the one i got:


----------



## anroj

Wynnytsky said:


> THIS is what the Amber3's USB input sounded like.
> It's like someone cracked open my DI and removed jumpers "homogeneous" and "congealed".
> My dynamics increased at least 1 or 2dBs.  If your heavy on the silver you may need to dial it back to enjoy this.
> Brutal separation and delineation.  There's 6ft social distancing between performers.
> ...


I thought that I was losing my mind when I first upgraded the firmware on my DI-20 because of the volume increase. I agree with you on at least 1 - 2 dB increase. The soundstage width and depth increased drastically as well.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@LOUD 
if you can get access to a windows laptop...

Download Quartus64ProgrammerSetup-16.0.0.211-windows.exe from DACLadder's link:
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1

USB blasters are dirt cheap:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-USB-B...ammer-Support-All-ATLERA-Devices/123231405870

Follow steps 7..10 here:
(these instructions are for v12.1, but it's the same with v16)
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DSPupdataR2REN.htm


----------



## FredA

Thanks Victor. I was forgetting @DACLadder had.put up a download site.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

Thanks to all people here experience, I finally ended my hopefully final configuration: Aries G1--DI-20HE--R7-HE 2020. Both Audio gd are used with external 10M Mutec Ref 10.All digital cables are Audioquest diamond silver.
It's just 3 days that system is complete and running, but I can share first impressions.
The general focus and finesse of high and mid frequencies are greatly improved, as a silver knife after a good clean. But mainly I'm impressed by bass region, that now is much tighter, fast and deep. The image picture improved too, with a greater sense of deepness. At night, with eyes closed, I can clearly feel the dimensions of the concert hall! 
I'll try to attach a pic of my system.
Thanks to all of you!


----------



## Il Cuffiotto




----------



## FredA

Il Cuffiotto said:


>


You have reached the promised land, it seems. The 10M clock input sure makes a difference. Do you use serial mode or parallel?


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> You have reached the promised land, it seems. The 10M clock input sure makes a difference. Do you use serial mode or parallel?


After a brief test of both, now I seem prefere parallel. Much focused. Bass is not less apparently, probably just tighter. The impression is funny: at first it seems lacking body and deepness, but when music lash and hit deep, all the needed power appears, slamming without mud. My klipsch are critical in this sense...cruel in showing right and wrong. If something doesn't work they rap it out without forgiveness.


----------



## JaMo

Il Cuffiotto said:


> cruel in showing right and wrong. If something doesn't work they rap it out without forgiveness.


The cruelty of high end.. Very nice rig!


----------



## LOUD

Wynnytsky said:


> @LOUD
> if you can get access to a windows laptop...
> 
> Download Quartus64ProgrammerSetup-16.0.0.211-windows.exe from DACLadder's link:
> ...


----------



## LOUD

Thanks very much for the instructions.  I forgot that my wife has an old windows laptop!  That is what I will do.

best,

Lou D


----------



## rsbrsvp

I cannot get my windows computer to recognize my USB Blaster to do the firmware update.  I went to printers and devices and it claims it is missing the drivers. I try to update drivers and my computer claims it cannot find them for this device.

How do I get the drivers for my USB blaster using windows 10?


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I cannot get my windows computer to recognize my USB Blaster to do the firmware update.  I went to printers and devices and it claims it is missing the drivers. I try to update drivers and my computer claims it cannot find them for this device.
> 
> How do I get the drivers for my USB blaster using windows 10?


Try to install the driver manually. The driver file is available in the quartus distribution if i remember well. You have to access the device manager, uninstall the driver if one is installed aready. Try this video:


----------



## JaMo

http://www.terasic.com.tw/wiki/Altera_USB_Blaster_Driver_Installation_Instructions

Test to follow this. I also had to help Windows 10 to find the driver
/Jan


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

In the quartus installation directory you will find a folder named drivers. Point installation to that folder...that's it!


----------



## JanneR

rsbrsvp said:


> I cannot get my windows computer to recognize my USB Blaster to do the firmware update.  I went to printers and devices and it claims it is missing the drivers. I try to update drivers and my computer claims it cannot find them for this device.
> 
> How do I get the drivers for my USB blaster using windows 10?



The drivers are in the Altera's folder, so go to Windows' Device Manager, from there right click the USB Blaster, update drivers and look for the drivers from your Altera installation folder (usually C:\altera).


----------



## rsbrsvp

I got the driver.   Thanks everyone for your help.

Now- I still need help.  I am on step #8 where I need to click on "file" and then "output file".

I cannot find this output file...  Can someone please instruct me.....


----------



## rsbrsvp

actually the file reads "output_file.jic" in the user instructions.

But when I run the software I can find this file.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> actually the file reads "output_file.jic" in the user instructions.
> 
> But when I run the software I can find this file.


The file is not called output_file.jic. The name is DP-20_V3.9.jic and is available within the rar file you can get there. http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmware/DI/V3.9.rar

You need to extract the content of the rar archive somewhere on the pc prior to browsing it.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> The file is not called output_file.jic. The name is DP-20_V3.9.jic and is available within the rar file you can get there. http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmware/DI/V3.9.rar
> 
> You need to extract the content of the rar archive somewhere on the pc prior to browsing it.


What program do I use to extract it?


----------



## motberg

rsbrsvp said:


> What program do I use to extract it?


winrar should do it, but Windows has a native extractor also.... right click on the file and search the drop down list


----------



## rsbrsvp

OK.   I did manage to extract the file but my computer crashes when I press "start".

I appreciate all the help.  I am a MAC user and I find using this borrowed PC very challenging.  I have a 9 year old "atom" microchip computer running Windows 10..  It is 64 bit.   Is it possible I just need a more up to date computer?

Also- is there ever a case where I should press that red button on the back of the DI-20?


----------



## newabc (Mar 29, 2020)

Based on this thread, Mac user can install unrar by homebrew:
brew install unrar

This is a command line tool and the user can extract a file by command like: unrar e filename

This post also introduces another tool.

But I haven't test these in Mac yet.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> OK.   I did manage to extract the file but my computer crashes when I press "start".
> 
> I appreciate all the help.  I am a MAC user and I find using this borrowed PC very challenging.  I have a 9 year old "atom" microchip computer running Windows 10..  It is 64 bit.   Is it possible I just need a more up to date computer?
> 
> Also- is there ever a case where I should press that red button on the back of the DI-20?



I run the programmer from this path (using an atom pc on window 10 as well):

C:\altera\12.1\qprogrammer\bin\quartus_pgmw.exe


----------



## peppyjoe

Is it me only or new di20he firmware is more analog like for others also. Digital stress is eliminated much now.


----------



## DACLadder

Find the USB Blaster drivers in the following location for Quartus 64 programming software (ver 16.0).  C:\altera\16.0\qprogrammer\drivers...  Find additional directories below this point for the specific type Blaster you are using.  Quartus 32 is probably about the same as far a path.

Load Quartus software, plug in the Blaster to the PC's USB port, and at the Window search window type "device manger" to bring up the hardware management window.  Look for the Blaster listed in the PC's hardware usually with an "!" which means no driver is loaded.  Right click and "update driver" and direct Windows to look in the search path above. 

Sometimes having the Blaster connected when installing Quartus the installer loads drivers at that time.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I finally got through the firmware update.

I agree with all previous observations:  More detail, more open, cleaner- by a very noticeable amount; and even more analogue.  Actually- I'm still not sure if I like the analogue part of the upgrade.  I prefer a more digital sound (less rounded)- but I need to give my ears time to listen.  The analogue part was done very tastefully- not overdone...

Bottom line- absolutely excellent upgrade- for free.

I just got my wire world Platinum Starlight 7 HDMI  as well.  Need some time to compare to my other cables.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Does JaMo have any conclusions on his on Mutec clock?  I do wonder how much improvement it can render over a $50-$200 ebay OXCO and if it is worth it?

I am considering the new mute or the SOTM.

The thing I do not get is I have read on this thread several times that "square wave" output is not as good as "sine wave" output and Mutec uses square wave output.  SOTM uses sine wave output.

Why would Mutec use square wave on such a good clock?


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> Does JaMo have any conclusions on his on Mutec clock?  I do wonder how much improvement it can render over a $50-$200 ebay OXCO and if it is worth it?
> 
> I am considering the new mute or the SOTM.
> 
> ...



Ok, I will try to answer. Yesterday I got a question from a forum member of how it performs. Here is my answer to him: 

"Spacious, width, depth, even height are super defined. Crazy low bass. Layering's are excellent. -How much better than Oscilloquartz...? Hard to compare. This is another animal. The Oscilloquartz is nice but the Mutec reveals it all and drags You into the scene. The music flowes easy and gently even if I play pretty high. Never unpleasant. I am still wondering how the H-LL can a XO have this impact on the sound...? It is just/only active in the time domain..? Well, fact is fact. It is an expensive investment but I have no regrets. The Mutec still have burn in time left...I expect a month and today is day 13 of power on. I still haven't found a decent priced and decent looking, vibration damping solution for it. It does a more than great job this far but to get it all the vibration prevention and a more serious power cable has to be addressed too"

Squarewave.
I did a "research" on that and I also asked Kingwa before I ordered. Kingwa answered: "-Square wave is better. With sine wave the square wave has to be produced in gear.". That made it for me. A clean square wave is more critical to transfer so the coax (BNC) cables must be well built according to the true specification of 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm. The Mutec REF10 has a very clean signal and the noise levels are crazy low. I also like the generous number of individual buffered outputs (2x50 Ohm+6x75 Ohm). In my case I went for the SE-120 version...-How much better it is compared to the present (-116dBc/1Hz) version...I don't know. 

Is it worth it?
It is a lot of money. For me, having this music listening as one of my most important things in my life...Yes. I was lucky to have the funds to buy it. I like the exploring of this higher end area. Future gears will benefit from these EXT XO's. I know that.  

So, to wrap it up. If You have the economy, the genuine plan to let this "hart" (Master clock) to have optimum setup regarding cables, vibration protection. Go for it. 
/Jan


----------



## LOUD

Break In.....

i bought the Audio-GD DI-20HE pretty much because of all the good things that I read About Audio-GD on this site over the years.  My correspondence and dealings with Kingwa were also a major factor.  The things I have read in the Audio Science reviews were disturbing, but I had faith.

The DI-20 has a little over 100 hours now.  I have to say that this break in is unlIke any break in that I have experienced.  Not only has the quality varied greatly, but in my case, the scratchy sound that comes and goes is very unpleasant and worry some.  It sounds like it is a BROKEN product vs one that is breaking in..... Like the kind of distortion produced by a bad tube.

When it is sounding good it is SO GOOD - the best I have experienced.  

I will hold off on detailed comments until substantially more hours have passed, but for now I am reaching out to try to reassure myself that I don;t have a defective unit.....can others provide advioe?

Thanks very much,

Lou D
Wilton, NH


----------



## JaMo

LOUD said:


> Break In.....
> 
> i bought the Audio-GD DI-20HE pretty much because of all the good things that I read About Audio-GD on this site over the years.  My correspondence and dealings with Kingwa were also a major factor.  The things I have read in the Audio Science reviews were disturbing, but I had faith.
> 
> ...



The burn in of the DI20HE was roller coaster for sure. I had strange noises off and on, the first days and a great variation of the performance. Then there was a "boring period" (day ~5-10). If I remember correct the DI was stable enough after approx. two weeks...to call it excellent all the time. My experience was on firmware version 3.32 but I think You will experience something like that. 

I hope You will be equally pleased with Your DI as I am with mine.
/Jan


----------



## FredA

LOUD said:


> Break In.....
> 
> i bought the Audio-GD DI-20HE pretty much because of all the good things that I read About Audio-GD on this site over the years.  My correspondence and dealings with Kingwa were also a major factor.  The things I have read in the Audio Science reviews were disturbing, but I had faith.
> 
> ...


Don't now what you mean by scratchy. It can indeed sound very bad during burn-in. Should be much more stable from 350 hours on, Should be finished around 800 to 1000 but will sound consistently good from 350.


----------



## LOUD

Jan - thanks for the good thoughts.

Fred - the static sound is like high distortion pure and simple.  i’d think I had a bad tube in my mono tube amps - but it is both channels simultaneously.

thanks,

Lou D


----------



## FredA

Haven't noticed anything that bad, your unit might not have received sufficient factory burn-in, under the circumstances.  Again, let it burn. If it does not stabilize, contact Kingwa. The accusilicons can produces glitches during the first 200 hours.


----------



## rsbrsvp

JaMo said:


> Squarewave.
> I did a "research" on that and I also asked Kingwa before I ordered. Kingwa answered: "-Square wave is better. With sine wave the square wave has to be produced in gear.". That made it for me. A clean square wave is more critical to transfer so the coax (BNC) cables must be well built according to the true specification of 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm. The Mutec REF10 has a very clean signal and the noise levels are crazy low. I also like the generous number of individual buffered outputs (2x50 Ohm+6x75 Ohm). In my case I went for the SE-120 version...-How much better it is compared to the present (-116dBc/1Hz) version...I don't know.




Very interesting.  SOTM advertises their 10mhz clock as using sine wave because it is better than squarewave- less jitter..

Hard to know the truth....


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> Very interesting.  SOTM advertises their 10mhz clock as using sine wave because it is better than squarewave- less jitter..
> 
> Hard to know the truth....



Yes, it is sometimes. Also Cybershaft produces sine waves. Maybe the more critical transfer between gears are the reason for the sine-choice. It is easy to destroy a square wave. Precautions has to be taken for this. For me the crazy low jitter- and phase noise numbers by Mutec REF10 and the REF10 SE-120 speaks for themselfs.
/Jan


----------



## DACLadder (Apr 2, 2020)

Squarewave/ Sinewave 10M clocks.  Which type is best depends upon the circuit you are connecting.  Kingwa said squarewave clocks may work best with his current equipment.  Reasoning is easy as the clock connects to a “digital“ PLL which only responds to 1s and 0s and clock edges.  A sinewave will work but Kingwa first converts to a squarewave before delivering to the digital PLL.  And the converted squarewave may produce more jitter as rising/ falling edges of the sinewave are really slow compared to much faster squarewave edges.  Sine’s slower rise and fall creates ambiguity when converting to squarewave and adds jitter.

For “analog“ PLLs sinewaves are generally preferred.  Analog is looking for purity of the clock and perfect sinewaves contain no harmonics.  In contrast squarewaves have odd harmonics which makes the analog PLLs job harder to pick out the fundamental clock frequency. 

Sine and square wave clocks work OK.  i think square sounds a little better with my clock and DI’s digital PLL.


----------



## FredA

I must add an important point, the rise time is much shorter with a square wave, so noise will introduce less jitter than with a sine.


----------



## FredA

Still prefer the serial mode.


----------



## joyck888

rsbrsvp said:


> I received my double oven OXCO (Morion MV89a) clock today.  It was custom built for me by "queens land"; a seller on ebay.  He used the 2009 OXCO which he said has the best specs.  He also made sure it had three Sine Wave 50ohm outputs.   One for the DI-20HE; one for the R-7HE and one if I ever want to use my SOTM tx-usbultra with an external clock.  Cost was $350.
> 
> Additionally, he built a beautiful casing around it for an extra $15;- it looks so professional.
> 
> ...


Thx for  the advice ordered the same with x2 square wave and x1 sine wave.   Ordered the x2 75 ohm BNC cable from the same store.


----------



## DACLadder

That is best to get a 10M clock with both sine and square wave outputs.  Pick which one you like best.  Kingwa said some of his customers like sine wave 10M clocks better than square.  Sine wave can be a touch warmer.  Square more focused.  All depends upon your equipment, tastes, and ears.


----------



## DACLadder (May 5, 2020)

@rsbrsvp  Since you have both the externally clocked R7 2020 and DI-20HE (well broken in) have you made any comparison to USB into the DI-20 and USB direct to the R7 2020?  All externally clocked.

The reason for asking with an external clocked DAC is the DI-20 even necessary?  With my current setup (DI20HE and regular R7) I find less differences in sound quality with HDMI I2S or SPDIF or AES/EBU.  They are getting closer in sound with each hardware and firmware upgrade.  

And anyone else with the latest DAC and DI gear would like to hear your comments as well about externally clocking and USB input comparisons.


----------



## FredA (Apr 2, 2020)

[wrong thread]


----------



## PLGA

Hello guys,
Some impressions:

1. The new firmware on the DI-20 is very good. I've found the biggest difference in soundstage with improved depth and more detached sound from the speakers and better instrument separation. 

The soundstage seems to have shrunk on the sides, but I believe I feel it that way due to the increase of the depth as when I listen to songs that have some instruments (or sounds) beyond the sides of the speakers, it is still there, in the same position. 

2. I don't find a big difference between serial and parallel modes. I feel may be the parallel one a little bit more alive and real, so I'm keeping it that way.

3. Between a 2 feet long Blue Jean Belden HDMI cable (I2S connection) and a 1 meter long chinese fake Nordost Odin 2 XLR (AES/EBU connection), I prefer the latest. It sounds smoother while retaining the detail and dynamics. The chinese cable is more expensive, but it sounds better. I don't know if its the cable or the difference between the I2S and AES/EBU inputs on my R8 DAC, but I prefer it that way. By the way, the chinese cable is silver coated copper.

By the way. I know this is off topic, but I totally recomend the Uptone Etherregen to anyone who streams music. It made a big difference, may be similar, or even bigger than the DI-20.   100% worthwile and with a 30 day return policy.


----------



## TitaniumDust

I debated whether or not to post this, but I thought I would just in case it helps anyone.

First of all, Kingwa was *extremely* helpful during the process and quickly offered a refund for the DI-20.

After receiving my DI-20 (90/98M edition) I was getting no output.  I don't own a DAC with AES or IIS inputs so I couIdn't test those outputs. I tried two different DACs but neither one worked.  I anticipated the ACSS output not working with a any given DAC, but I assumed the RCA output would work with all DACs.  I tried two or three different SPDIF cables (both BNC and RCA) and I used adapters to try both the BNC and RCA outputs of the DI-20.  No luck any way I tried.

I installed the driver and everything looked great on the PC end.  My media player happily "played" to the device, and the DI-20 display showed that it changed sample rate when I played music at different rates.  I am a guru at computers (I've been building my own PCs for more that 20 years) and I know there was no issue with device configuration.  I verified all drivers were installed and functional according to Device Manager.

One thing to note is that I didn't try a different USB cable, I don't think.  I am using fully functioning 7N OCC silver USB and SPDIF cables, and I had no desire to use something else.  Using inferior cables would cancel out any sonic upgrades that the DI-20 had to offer.  So in the end, I still don't know where the incompatibility was.  Could have been the USB cable.  Both SPDIF cables I tried were silver and perhaps that was the problem?  Maybe it didn't like my motherboard.  Whatever the case, Kingwa tested the returned unit and determined it was functional, so I had no choice but to get a refund.  Thank you to KIngwa for being so helpful!  Unfortunately, the DI-20 just didn't work in my system and now I either have to live with my U16 or try something else like SU-2 or SU-6.


----------



## FredA

TitaniumDust said:


> I debated whether or not to post this, but I thought I would just in case it helps anyone.
> 
> First of all, Kingwa was *extremely* helpful during the process and quickly offered a refund for the DI-20.



Too bad. Perhaps an impedance issue with the cables..I don't know.


----------



## DACLadder (Apr 2, 2020)

@TitaniumDust  That is unfortunate and glad you spoke out here.  Were you connecting S/PDIF coax from the DI-20 to your DAC?  If so wondering if the DI’s ACSS S/PDIF output circuit is compatible with your DAC?  What DAC is it in case someone else has a similar issue?  Could very well be an impedance methodology issue and why it works for Kingwa and not for you.  Thanks again for sharing.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Apr 3, 2020)

DACLadder said:


> @rsbrsvp  Since you have both the externally clocked R7 2020 and DI-20HE (well broken in) have you made any comparison to USB into the DI-20 and USB direct to the R7 2020?  All externally clocked.
> 
> The reason for asking with an external clocked DAC is the DI-20 even necessary?  With my current setup (DI20HE and regular R7) I find less differences in sound quality with HDMI I2S or SPDIF or AES/EBU.  They are getting closer in sound with each hardware and firmware upgrade.  And there is a rumor that Kingwa is working on a new DAC digital board to replace the older 2017-2019 digital board.  It will have external clocking capability so perhaps DIY upgrade for externally clocked DAC in the future .  Just rumor, of course.  But interested in how the externally clocked DI's USB sounds compared to externally clocked DAC's USB input.
> 
> And anyone else with the latest DAC and DI gear would like to hear your comments as well about externally clocking and USB input comparisons.



I did make the comparison.  Why?  I figured maybe I could sell my DI-20HE. Also- I find the external clocking has more effect on the R-7HE than on the DI-20HE if I choose to clock only one of them,

However I found that with the DI-20HE externally clocked and the R-7HE externally clocked the sonics were noticably better IMHO than USB direct to the R-7HE externally clocked.  It could be that those who have a low jitter source may not need the DI-20HE.  I am using a a mac mini and perhaps one of these dedicated music servers may do a better job and eliminate the need to use the DI-20HE.  I cannot know...

Also- I use a $50 Jitterbug on the USB output of my mac mini and it also improves sonics.  Better focus- fuller sound, bigger sound.

What I am interested in comparing is my SOTM-usbtx ultra to R7HE both with external clocking to the DI-20HE and R-7HE with external clocking; but my SOTM- usbtx ultra is in need of repair because I dropped it- so can't do that now.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have compared the DI-20HE in Parallel vs Serial and Serial is for sure cleaner, brighter etc.  Parallel is rounder and warmer.

I like both depending on my mood and the headphones I use.  I can see easily why Fred prefers Serial...


----------



## bercom02

Good morning all,
Could someone tell me if the BNC ACSS output is compatible with the BNC input of my Chord Hugo Mscaler.
Thanks in advance


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

bercom02 said:


> Could definitely be compatible.
> Kingwa states it can match with most dac digital inputs.
> 
> Good morning all,
> ...


----------



## bercom02

Thank you for this quick answer


----------



## TitaniumDust

DACLadder said:


> @TitaniumDust  That is unfortunate and glad you spoke out here.  Were you connecting S/PDIF coax from the DI-20 to your DAC?  If so wondering if the DI’s ACSS S/PDIF output circuit is compatible with your DAC?  What DAC is it in case someone else has a similar issue?  Could very well be an impedance methodology issue and why it works for Kingwa and not for you.  Thanks again for sharing.



I tried it with a Topping D50 DAC and a Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC.  I tried both the ACSS (BNC) output as well as the RCA coaxial output of the DI-20 to both DACs.  My primary cable is an Audio Sensibility Signature Silver BNC SPDIF cable, and I tried it with and without adapters from both the BNC and RCA outputs of the DI-20.  I also tried a VooDoo Cable Silverstream RCA/coax SPDIF cable from the RCA output to both DACs.  I can't remember if I tried my Blue Jeans RCA cable, but I would not have wanted to use that cable anyways.  BTW, the D50 DAC's display shows the current sample rate, but it instead displayed "UNLOCK" which meant it never received a valid audio signal.

I also can't remember if I tried a different USB cable.  My cable of choice is a Moon Audio Silver Dragon.  Since the computer reported no errors and the device was correctly installed and "playing" just fine, I may not have tried a different USB cable.

My original goal with trying the DI-20 was to get something that works with my current DAC, and then later on I would look into higher-end IIS DACs when I could afford it.  Of course this mandated that the DI-20 work with my current cables and DAC.  After having this problem with the DI-20, and also realizing that *very* little of the music I listen to on a regular basis is even available in DSD format, I decided to go a different route.  I ordered a Bifrost 2 DAC, and I will look into either external clocks for U16 and/or looking at other DDCs.  My SU-1 was completely trouble-free (until I accidentally broke the USB port... lol) so something like SU-6 + LPS would probably come really close to DI-20 (non-HE) in terms of sound quality.

Keep in mind that it is not outside the realm of possibility that I made some bone-headed mistake.  I did spend about 45 minutes troubleshooting the issue before emailing Kingwa, and some time after that testing his suggestions.


----------



## DACLadder

@TitaniumDust  Thanks.  You tried two DACs and two difference S/PDIF outputs.  I don’t see what else you could do.  Sorry it did not work for you.


----------



## Jackula

For what it's worth, my DI-20HE also had no audio, no matter the output and I thought I got a dud unit. But after leaving it on for maybe 20 minutes the sound suddenly came through and I had no problems after that.


----------



## DACLadder

rsbrsvp said:


> I did make the comparison.  Why?  I figured maybe I could sell my DI-20HE. Also- I find the external clocking has more effect on the R-7HE than on the DI-20HE if I choose to clock only one of them. However I found that with the DI-20HE externally clocked and the R-7HE externally clocked the sonics were noticably better IMHO than USB direct to the R-7HE externally clocked.  It could be that those who have a low jitter source may not need the DI-20HE.  I am using a a mac mini and perhaps one of these dedicated music servers may do a better job and eliminate the need to use the DI-20HE.  I cannot know...



Thank you and guess the DI-20HE stays in the mix for a while longer!   But am eager to see how the externally clocked R7 sounds.  I feel the regular R7 may be holding back my system after all my other upgrades.

I have spent a modest fortune on 10M external clocks in the past year.  Clock boards, OCXOs, power supplies, cables...  But thanks to our good friend JaMo, who steered me to some ads from Europe, I recently purchased a Mutec Ref10 clock. Smokin' hot deal!  The Ref 10's performance is more than 2 orders of magnitude better than what I am using now.  Looking forward to that but shipment may be very slow due to the virus.


----------



## TitaniumDust

Jackula said:


> For what it's worth, my DI-20HE also had no audio, no matter the output and I thought I got a dud unit. But after leaving it on for maybe 20 minutes the sound suddenly came through and I had no problems after that.


Thank you @Jackula for the info.  I am estimating that mine was powered on for about 1 or 1.5 hours the first day, while troubleshooting.  I left it unplugged overnight and then tried again the next day with no luck.  Perhaps I will try the DI-20 again in the future after more info appears and more people report their experiences.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@TitaniumDust
Any chance you were plugging into the red x?
(it looks yellow in this photo, but mine is white)


----------



## Wynnytsky (Apr 5, 2020)

LOUD said:


> Jan - thanks for the good thoughts.
> 
> Fred - the static sound is like high distortion pure and simple.  i’d think I had a bad tube in my mono tube amps - but it is both channels simultaneously.
> 
> ...


How much voltage are you sending into your ISO Regen?  Have you tried removing it entirely?


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Still prefer the serial mode.



I've been spending more time listening to serial, but when I switch to parallel the first thing I notice is I loose high freq extension but I gain density.  This is the same impression when my friend switches from his EMM DAC2X to his VPI Avenger.  I'm waiting on Kiyoaki Imai (Audio Tekne) to send me some of his litz XLRs and then I want to post a video with those cables on the parallel filter.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> I've been spending more time listening to serial, but when I switch to parallel the first thing I notice is I loose high freq extension but I gain density.  This is the same impression when my friend switches from his EMM DAC2X to his VPI Avenger.  I'm waiting on Kiyoaki Imai (Audio Tekne) to send me some of his litz XLRs and then I want to post a video with those cables on the parallel filter.


Strange, i get more density with serial. But i use an external clock. I should get a Morion clock within the next few days. Maybe this will make me prefer parallel.


----------



## TitaniumDust

Wynnytsky said:


> @TitaniumDust
> Any chance you were plugging into the red x?
> (it looks yellow in this photo, but mine is white)



Yes I did notice that.  Here is a (blurry) pic I took to show Kingwa.  The unit was tucked away in a corner and difficult to get a good pic.
I tried both S/PDIF output ports with and without adapters, with both BNC and RCA coax cables.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@TitaniumDust
I see your spdif input is red.  That's oddly inconsistent.


----------



## Currawong

Wynnytsky said:


> @TitaniumDust
> I see your spdif input is red.  That's oddly inconsistent.



More than likely, they purchased a large quantity of L/R jack pairs, and rather than use just one color, use both, so that they don't have a leftover.


----------



## FredA

Yep. They had to produce.much more then expected. The di20 is a big hit.


----------



## LOUD

Wynnytsky said:


> How much voltage are you sending into your ISO Regen?  Have you tried removing it entirely?



Wynny - 

Thanks for writing.  I tried removing the iso regen this morning and going direct.  The sound definitely changed but the static seemed to be there as much or maybe even more.  I didn’t listen for that long and put the iso back in.

my setup is Mac mini With the Uptone fan and power supply mod.  I am powering the Mac and the iso regen using a HD Plex power supply.   The iso regen is connected to the variable output set at 8.5 volts.

the static has changed in severity over time and has in the last couple of days receded more in the background...but is annoying as hell.  Perceived as a lack of clarity especially on vocals with the ‘s’ sound...

I’m at around 250 hours now and i’m trying to be patient but I am feeling that I would gladly pay an additional cost in order to buy a broken in unit and avoid the anxiety....

thanks again,

Lou D


I’m


Wynnytsky said:


> @TitaniumDust
> Any chance you were plugging into the red x?
> (it looks yellow in this photo, but mine is white)


----------



## FredA

LOUD said:


> Wynny -
> 
> Thanks for writing.  I tried removing the iso regen this morning and going direct.  The sound definitely changed but the static seemed to be there as much or maybe even more.  I didn’t listen for that long and put the iso back in.
> 
> ...



Hi Lou.

How constant is it, a pop once in a while? Do you do other things on the pc at the same time? Do you use a playback sw?


----------



## Wynnytsky

@LOUD
Did you say you got the same results over COAX?

Do you have a channel test track that can confirm the DI20 isn't swapping the left/right?  If so, you have to change this...




On the Mac you can pull up the Amanero device properties, and I presume the hardware buffer is defaulted to 50ms?

I see so many people with issues that require them to reboot the DI or the DAC.  At no time has mine ever farted.  The SU1 on the other hand had that nasty pop when I switched sample rates.


----------



## LOUD

FredA said:


> Hi Lou.
> 
> How constant is it, a pop once in a while? Do you do other things on the pc at the same time? Do you use a playback sw?


Hi Fred,

thanks for writing.  t


Wynnytsky said:


> @LOUD
> Did you say you got the same results over COAX?
> 
> Do you have a channel test track that can confirm the DI20 isn't swapping the left/right?  If so, you have to change this...
> ...





FredA said:


> Hi Lou.
> 
> How constant is it, a pop once in a while? Do you do other things on the pc at the same time? Do you use a playback sw?



Sorry - it is a constant background noise - a lack of clarity in chords and voices in the treble frequencies - especiallynoticed on violins, piano and the human voice.  It does seem to go away from time to time but comes back again.


----------



## FredA

Strange, but one thing for sure is the DI can sound bad during the first 300-400 hours, but i would not qualify the sound as having static noise in the background. If at time you feel the sound is perfect, this will cure by itself.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Strange, but one thing for sure is the DI can sound bad during the first 300-400 hours, but i would not qualify the sound as having static noise in the background. If at time you feel the sound is perfect, this will cure by itself.



I wouldn't get his hopes up.  What was wrong with your first DI?  Display issues, or static?

@LOUD
What interface were you using before the DI20HE?  Also i2s?
If you already tried diff wires then the only think left is to try another computer, and if you hear noise, ship that puppy back.


----------



## TitaniumDust

Hey guys, I just wanted to provide a quick update today.

TL;DR: It is possible that my problems were due to a Windows 10 issue. 

Long Story: I hooked up my new Bifrost 2 DAC today, I rebooted the U16 and the Bifrost, and I was getting no sound, just like before.  After unplugging/rebooting everything, still no sound.  I unplugged and re-plugged the USB cable at the PC end, still no sound.  Device Manager looked fine.  I then rebooted my PC twice in a row, and sound miraculously appeared.  This means that it is fairly likely that I have run into some sort of Windows issue, possibly stemming from recent updates.  Obviously I can no longer confirm anything as I don't have the DI-20 anymore.  I am now off to perform a clean Windows install.  The good news is that I did manage to iron out the quirks I was having with the U16, so I think I'm just gonna step back from Head-Fi for a while so I don't screw things up more, and also so I'm not tempted to spend any more money.  LOL!!!!  U16 + Bifrost 2 is still a killer combo and I may look into getting my feet wet in the high-end audiophile world some time in the future.  The DI-20 would be right at the top of the list.


----------



## LOUD

To Fred & Wynny,

Thanks for your suggestions.  I have been listening through the balanced connection and today hooked up a Bnc coax.  unfortunately, I have the issue Using coax.

i‘ll give it another day and then I think that my next step is to contact Kingwa and ask for his advice.

Best,

Lou D


----------



## rsbrsvp (Apr 7, 2020)

FredA said:


> Strange, i get more density with serial. But i use an external clock. I should get a Morion clock within the next few days. Maybe this will make me prefer parallel.



I have the Morion clock and Serial is just better to my ears.  It is cleaner and brighter (in a good way).  It is in my opinion at least equally analogue in character- just clearer than Parallel.  Switching from Serial to Parallel to me music sounds warmer and denser which to my ears translates to sounding like I am adding a veil to the music.  Not saying the veil cannot be pleasant;- that is a matter of opinion- but a veil it is- and to my taste I am not crazy about it most of the time.  Parallel sound looses a noticeable amount of separation and transient response relative to Serial due to the veil.

Serial does NOT sound thin at all to me- just more correct.

I went the audio-gd route because I wanted to eliminate as much coloration as possible from my chain and  have the purest possible musical experience; no up-sampling, oversampling, dither, noise shaping, filtering etc..  Just the best power supply, best clocking, directly coupled equipment with the absolutely minimum manipulating of the music possible.  Parallel mode to my ears goes against this goal while Serial supports it.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@rsbrsvp
I went with audio-gd because his stuff is huge and that impresses the ladies.
So far it only attracted some stray cats.  I may need bigger power cords.


----------



## FredA (Apr 7, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> @rsbrsvp
> I went with audio-gd because his stuff is huge and that impresses the ladies.
> So far it only attracted some stray cats.  I may need bigger power cords.


I have a 4.5AWG cable on my main power bar, who can beat that?


----------



## DACLadder (Apr 8, 2020)

TitaniumDust said:


> TL;DR: It is possible that my problems were due to a Windows 10 issue.



Yes, the PC I am using now was upgrade from WIndows 8.1 to Windows 10.  USB audio did not work correctly after the upgrade.  Had to purchase a JCAT PCIe USB card to fix the issue.  Very possible it is USB compatibility and not a lot of ways to debug.


----------



## FredA

The amanero driver has too be installed, for one thing.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> Yes, the PC I am using now was upgrade from WIndows 8.1 to Windows 10.  USB audio did not work correctly after the upgrade.  Had to purchase a JCAT PCIe USB card to fix the issue.  Very possible it is USB compatibility and not a lot of ways to debug.



for that USB card, do you have to be careful that the LPS power is supplied prior to booting the computer?  If you didn't would that risk damage?  Does powering over 4pin molex mitigate that, or add noise?

I think Win10 is free now.  You can get a very recent ISO from the torrents and make a bootable USB thumb drive from that.  I _NEVER_ upgrade.


----------



## DACLadder (Apr 8, 2020)

@Wynnytsky  I've had no issues with the JCAT PCIe USB board and connecting with a linear supply.  The JCAT board actually enables the +5V voltage on the ports when the JCAT PCie driver is loaded. I've had zero issues in 4 yrs.  The linear +5V supply just stays on if it has AC power. I don't even have to think about it.  So external power has to be on when the JCAT ports are enabled and USB discovery takes place early in the boot cycle. 

I saw yesterday the JCAT PCIe USB board costs like $500 USD these days.  That is expensive but it has worked flawlessly and saved me from purchasing a new computer just to listen to music.  The PC motherboard is Asus but was designed before Win 10 - whatever difference that makes.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> The JCAT board actually enables the +5V voltage on the ports when the JCAT PCie driver is loaded. I've had zero issues in 4 yrs.  The linear +5V supply just stays on if it has AC power. I don't even have to think about it.  So external power has to be on when the JCAT ports are enabled and USB discovery takes place early in the boot cycle.


so you don't also plug in the internal molex for backup in the event the LPS gets cut?
That's good to hear because SOtM asks people to do this because the say cutting the LPS could damage the card if the computer is on.

@FredA can you tell me again which card you use?  A friend is asking for recommendations.


----------



## DACLadder (Apr 8, 2020)

Yes I connect external +5V to the JCAT connector or can use the internal PC +5V.  There are jumpers on the JCAT board to strap which before the board is installed.  No automatic voltage selection.

With Amanero designs like the internal USB and DI20 you can just leave the JCAT external USB power turned off.  They do not require USB +5V.  Same with Gustard U16.  As default the Singxers all need USB +5V to operate (unless modified).  The Blaster programming pod requires +5V, etc.  The JCAT board is not harmed by not connecting USB +5V source or external power when the PC is powered down.


----------



## FredA (Apr 8, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> so you don't also plug in the internal molex for backup in the event the LPS gets cut?
> That's good to hear because SOtM asks people to do this because the say cutting the LPS could damage the card if the computer is on.
> 
> @FredA can you tell me again which card you use?  A friend is asking for recommendations.


I am using a Usbridge Signature from Allo.com. I use it as a stand-alone player. It could also be used a upnp node.


----------



## jimmychan

Get a RPi4B as the transport, you can run many player software without a computer.


----------



## JaMo

jimmychan said:


> Get a RPi4B as the transport, you can run many player software without a computer.


+1


----------



## hgpsemaj (Apr 9, 2020)

PCIe with an OCXO


----------



## Jandu

JaMo said:


> +1


+2

With a good PSU and a decent cable, you are almost set. Unless, you want to do the USB transport mode like Fred. 

Thx Fred


----------



## Oepsie

Jay.. mine arrived today! 90/98 version. Having auditioned my friends di-20 last week and read though this entire thread, I decided to go for it in my main setup between my sotm sms-200 and my electrocompaniet ecd-1 dac. Coming from a gustard u12 which I loved, the di-20 is better in every way; more body to the sound, more impact, more bas control (not so open as the gustard though but might be due to burn in). Will be interesting to hear the changes the next weeks. Should have about 100 hours from the store..


----------



## JaMo

Oepsie said:


> Jay.. mine arrived today! 90/98 version. Having auditioned my friends di-20 last week and read though this entire thread, I decided to go for it in my main setup between my sotm sms-200 and my electrocompaniet ecd-1 dac. Coming from a gustard u12 which I loved, the di-20 is better in every way; more body to the sound, more impact, more bas control (not so open as the gustard though but might be due to burn in). Will be interesting to hear the changes the next weeks. Should have about 100 hours from the store..



Let it burn in for at least 2 weeks with constant power on..To get its full performance


----------



## comzee

I was clued into the DI-20 when it first came out, but had literally just bought a Singxer SU-6.
Have always planned to buy di-20he, but wanted to wait for people to get solid impressions on it.
Now that this thread has matured, is there any consensus on:

#1 External clock vs using the upgraded internal 90/98M clocks?
#2 If external clock, what are people using, anything sticking out as the best?


----------



## FredA (Apr 16, 2020)

comzee said:


> I was clued into the DI-20 when it first came out, but had literally just bought a Singxer SU-6.
> Have always planned to buy di-20he, but wanted to wait for people to get solid impressions on it.
> Now that this thread has matured, is there any consensus on:
> 
> ...


Everyone who got an external clock enjoyed a small to very noticeable improvement it seems.
The best units are Mutec and Cybershaft i read.

Even with the onboard accusilicons, the sound quality is excellent. But you need patience as they take very long to reach their full potential.

I you plan on getting a dac with a 10M input as well, investing in an external clock brings a much bigger benefit it seems from comments here, which just makes sense.


----------



## FredA

Just got my Morion ocxo from Ebay's queenland. Good sounding but a high-pitched noise is emited by the crystal itself and ruins the experience. I'll see what the sellers says about it.


----------



## comzee

FredA said:


> Just got my Morion ocxo from Ebay's queenland. Good sounding but a high-pitched noise is emited by the crystal itself and ruins the experience. I'll see what the sellers says about it.



That sucks, well maybe in the meantime cover it with a few blankets or something until you get a new one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm really interested to hear your impressions on the Morion, because that's exactly what I'm planning. DI-20HE with Morion.
@rsbrsvp said earlier in this thread it was a significant improvement.

What are people powering their Morions with by the way? I see it takes 12v in, I was thinking about an iPower X https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipowerx/


----------



## FredA

comzee said:


> That sucks, well maybe in the meantime cover it with a few blankets or something until you get a new one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> I'm really interested to hear your impressions on the Morion, because that's exactly what I'm planning. DI-20HE with Morion.
> @rsbrsvp said earlier in this thread it was a significant improvement.
> 
> What are people powering their Morions with by the way? I see it takes 12v in, I was thinking about an iPower X https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipowerx/


I use this psu:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/25W-TALEMA-...&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&redirect=mobile


----------



## newabc (Apr 16, 2020)

comzee said:


> What are people powering their Morions with by the way? I see it takes 12v in, I was thinking about an iPower X https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipowerx/



If it takes 12v DC and < 1.5A, you can get a Teradak DC-30w 12V DC version(there is a AC version, be careful). It is better than a lot of linear power supplies and not cheap. Either from ebay/aliexpress or from the Teradak producer official store on taobao.com(Teradak(少帅音响)). And its official store has many DC-30w versions with different technologies, sometime with double price as the basic one.

I am using a most basic model of DC-30w 12VDC to my external clock.


----------



## newabc

FredA said:


> I use this psu:
> 
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/25W-TALEMA-...&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&redirect=mobile


Hi Fred, it looks like the Breeze Audio(store name "伟良音响DIY" on taobao.com) designing. I recognized its outlook because it was the 1st LPS I met on an online store. By the way, there is no official Breeze Audio store on aliexpress or ebay, regarding to the replies of "伟良音响DIY".


----------



## FredA (Apr 16, 2020)

This is a good unit and this seller is reliable, meaning my ebay seller. 

As for Weiliang, he has a pretty good reputation. He is Breeze audio.


----------



## comzee

I know it's a lot of marketing bullsh*t, but ifi iPower X claims much lower noise floor than a linear PSU. I might just try it out to start, since it's pretty cheap.


----------



## newabc

FredA said:


> This is a good unit and this seller is reliable.



I was forced to get 2 bluetooth to SPDIF convertors on ebay only because Weiliang doesn't have an ebay or aliexpress store. The shipping from Weiliang's Foshan Factory on Taobao.com to US costs a lot more than the ebay seller and has lots of limitation.


----------



## newabc

comzee said:


> I know it's a lot of marketing bullsh*t, but ifi iPower X claims much lower noise floor than a linear PSU. I might just try it out to start, since it's pretty cheap.


This is the basic one of DC-30w, $84 with shipping to US today. Teradak has a very long history on low voltage DC linear power supply.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TeraDak-DC...hash=item2acdcd3d4d:m:mabVZVSaWwTCyRG_gIbV51w


----------



## FredA

comzee said:


> I know it's a lot of marketing bullsh*t, but ifi iPower X claims much lower noise floor than a linear PSU. I might just try it out to start, since it's pretty cheap.


The drawback with swiching psus is not the noise they have at the output but rather how they contaminate the power line. But i don't hear much of a difference with either feeding the ocxo.


----------



## joyck888

FredA said:


> Just got my Morion ocxo from Ebay's queenland. Good sounding but a high-pitched noise is emited by the crystal itself and ruins the experience. I'll see what the sellers says about it.


I have received my unit with 2 square waves and 1 sine wave.     No high pitched noise from my system.   To me sound like the better tone and music seem to flow better.     Only on for 30 mins,  does clocks need some time to properly run-in?


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> Just got my Morion ocxo from Ebay's queenland. Good sounding but a high-pitched noise is emited by the crystal itself and ruins the experience. I'll see what the sellers says about it.




I have purchased three clocks form Ebay.  All OXCO double oven, all with sinewave output, all use 12V DC power.  The first two were $50 each and the Morian was $350.  They all basically sound the same to me in terms of results- better detail, deeper bass- more focus- but the Morion to me just went further in the same areas.

I believe Queensann will take he clock back if you are not happy.  Ask him....  He's very straight..


----------



## JaMo

joyck888 said:


> I have received my unit with 2 square waves and 1 sine wave.     No high pitched noise from my system.   To me sound like the better tone and music seem to flow better.     Only on for 30 mins,  does clocks need some time to properly run-in?



Yes! At least two weeks. Kingwa advice a full month.
/J


----------



## joyck888

rsbrsvp said:


> I have purchased three clocks form Ebay.  All OXCO double oven, all with sinewave output, all use 12V DC power.  The first two were $50 each and the Morian was $350.  They all basically sound the same to me in terms of results- better detail, deeper bass- more focus- but the Morion to me just went further in the same areas.
> 
> I believe Queensann will take he clock back if you are not happy.  Ask him....  He's very straight..



Very strange but it does provide more bass and focus, I have the same clock as well.


----------



## FredA (Apr 17, 2020)

Well, i had requested some cap change and perhaps it is the cause.

Queen, the seller, suggested to bypass the regulator, i did and it cured the noise. I added a tantalum cap to improve regulation by the same occasion. He made a second suggestion of changing the value of the post -regulation electrolytic cap to under 100uF and keep the regulator. I may try it later.


----------



## joyck888

FredA said:


> Well, i had requested some cap change and perhaps it is the cause.
> 
> Queen, the seller, suggested to bypass the regulator, i did and it cured the noise. I added a tantalum cap to improve regulation by the same occasion. He made a second suggestion of changing the value of the post -regulation electrolytic cap to under 100uF and keep the regulator. I may try it later.


is there a big difference in DI20 vs di20 HE?


----------



## FredA

joyck888 said:


> is there a big difference in DI20 vs di20 HE?


No idea. Someone on this thread has both.


----------



## FredA

Quick update: the morion sounds great and so far i prefer with parallel mode and square output.


----------



## FredA (Apr 17, 2020)

Based on what i hear with the Morion, both of you, ( @JaMo and @DACLadder ) should be in heaven with a Mutec.

With barely some run time, the sound became smoother and got a greater sense of depth. It is a really clear upgrade from the Dapu, more details, better microdynamics and depth. But this is again in parallel mode.


----------



## joyck888

FredA said:


> Based on what i hear with the Morion, both of you should be in heaven with a Mutec.
> 
> With barely some run time, the sound became smoother and got a greater sense of depth. It is a really clear upgrade from the Dapu, more details, better microdynamics and depth. But this is again in parallel mode.


Fred, are you running R7HE ?


----------



## FredA

Yes i am, but not the latest, i don't have the 10M input. Great dac.


----------



## DACLadder

FredA said:


> Based on what i hear with the Morion, both of you, ( @JaMo and @DACLadder ) should be in heaven with a Mutec.



That is good news... I will receive the Mutec Ref 10 (regular version, not special edition SE120) next week.  Looking forward to better clocking.  

It is my hunch that 10M clocks are like vacuum tubes. Changing a clock affects sound in different/ subtle ways including power sources and cables. 10M is really tweaky and to get the most out of it you need to experiment!!  Currently on my 4th OCXO, 3rd set of coax, 2nd power supply, and numerous power cables.  It has been a journey of discovery but ready to move up the the Mutec Ref 10.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I have purchased three clocks form Ebay.  All OXCO double oven, all with sinewave output, all use 12V DC power.  The first two were $50 each and the Morian was $350.  They all basically sound the same to me in terms of results- better detail, deeper bass- more focus- but the Morion to me just went further in the same areas.
> 
> I believe Queensann will take he clock back if you are not happy.  Ask him....  He's very straight..


The Morion is a clear upgrade from the two Dapus i have purchased before. More depth, details, clarity, the cymbal sound very real. As you said, more of everything.


----------



## ToddRaymond

Happy Friday (or Saturday) to everyone.

Apologies for the somewhat off-topic question here, but on the subject on linear power supplies, I'm wondering if anyone has a suggestion for something that would be a step up from the basic iFi LPS wall warts, but yet nowhere near the price of that new awesome-looking-but-outta-my-range JCAT Optimo 3 Duo at 1500€.  I plan to get the JCAT FEMTO USB card soon as an upgrade from just going straight outta my Mac Mini and into my SU-6 (later to replaced with a DI-20HE).


----------



## FredA

ToddRaymond said:


> Happy Friday (or Saturday) to everyone.
> 
> Apologies for the somewhat off-topic question here, but on the subject on linear power supplies, I'm wondering if anyone has a suggestion for something that would be a step up from the basic iFi LPS wall warts, but yet nowhere near the price of that new awesome-looking-but-outta-my-range JCAT Optimo 3 Duo at 1500€.  I plan to get the JCAT FEMTO USB card soon as an upgrade from just going straight outta my Mac Mini and into my SU-6 (later to replaced with a DI-20HE).


I used ebay ultra-low noise lps combined to Ghentaudio dc cables.


----------



## DACLadder (Apr 17, 2020)

@ToddRaymond  Are you looking for a  +5V supply to connect to the JCAT board to power the USB ports?  If so I have excellent results with the CIaudio VDC-5.  Runs cool, low noise, and never any problems.  Easily powers two Singxers or other USB devices.  Been running this JCAT PC setup for almost 5 years. 

https://ciaudio.com/product-category/ciaudio-electronics/upgrade-power-supplies


----------



## ToddRaymond

Yeah, exactly.  For the JCAT board.

Thank-you, @FredA and @DACLadder!


----------



## joyck888

FredA said:


> Yes i am, but not the latest, i don't have the 10M input. Great dac.


Does linear power supply help for the clock?   wonder it makes any difference.  I am running with a square wave.  I have not tried the sine wave yet.


----------



## JaMo (Apr 18, 2020)

joyck888 said:


> Does linear power supply help for the clock?   wonder it makes any difference.  I am running with a square wave.  I have not tried the sine wave yet.


The quality of the power supplying the XO is equal important as the XO itself. Meaning: "You can ruin the XO's performance with a bad/noisy power supply". Pick an Ultra silent LPS for the XO.
/Jan


----------



## FredA (Apr 18, 2020)

joyck888 said:


> Does linear power supply help for the clock?   wonder it makes any difference.  I am running with a square wave.  I have not tried the sine wave yet.


As @JaMo said, and in my case, the regulator feeding the crystal is bypassed, so it is even more important. Will you hear a difference? It depends on so many factors, hard to say. If you pay 130usd like i did for a lps plus a good dc cable, there is not much to loose.


----------



## joyck888

FredA said:


> As @JaMo said, and in my case, the regulator feeding the crystal is bypassed, so it is even more important. Will you hear a difference? It depends on so many factors, hard to say. If you pay 130usd limlke i did for a lps plus a good dc cable, there is not much to loose.


Yeah.  Order one from Aliexpress, looks like a very good quality one.    I did the sound testing between Square and Sine.  To me, Square sounds better than Sine wave.   I will be feeding Square to DI and R7HE when I get those.


----------



## FredA

joyck888 said:


> Yeah.  Order one from Aliexpress, looks like a very good quality one.    I did the sound testing between Square and Sine.  To me, Square sounds better than Sine wave.   I will be feeding Square to DI and R7HE when I get those.


Do you have a Morion too?


----------



## soundlogic

So, I finally received my USB blaster yesterday, and with a lot of putZing...I’m a MAC guy NOT PC... I think I was able to update my firmwarE. Is there a way to check the firmware version from the display? Thanks; Tim


----------



## DACLadder

@soundlogic  Unfortunately the only way to verify firmware version is with the Blaster and Altera software.  Great idea though - display f/w rev on the front panel.  Would be a nice feature.


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> So, I finally received my USB blaster yesterday, and with a lot of putZing...I’m a MAC guy NOT PC... I think I was able to update my firmwarE. Is there a way to check the firmware version from the display? Thanks; Tim


If the glitch in parallel mode and external xo is gone, you have reached the superior level.


----------



## soundlogic

Thanks for the quick response guys! I do believe I have successfully upgrade...Now to enjoy some quarantine time...


----------



## FredA

Being quarantined for dubious reasons, owning great audio equipment  cushions the pill. Let the thruth, and audio truth triumph!


----------



## joyck888

FredA said:


> Do you have a Morion too?


yup,  same unit


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> Being quarantined for dubious reasons, owning great audio equipment  cushions the pill. Let the thruth, and audio truth triumph!


Funny to notice how people, despite being quarantined with lot of time for listening and reporting, do not feed anymore this thread with same intensity...😆


----------



## FredA (Apr 21, 2020)

Yes. Strange indeed. It's a new way of living.The di20he is perfect with the latest fw, so not much else to say. Other than: buy a very good external clock and enjoy even more!


----------



## Oepsie

My di-20 is still burning in. One week in. It sounds at bit bright opposed to the unit I borrowed from a friend. Any experience with changes in tonal balance as the unit burns in? I’m a bit concerned..


----------



## FredA

Oepsie said:


> My di-20 is still burning in. One week in. It sounds at bit bright opposed to the unit I borrowed from a friend. Any experience with changes in tonal balance as the unit burns in? I’m a bit concerned..


It can sound edgy during the first 350 hours.


----------



## JaMo (Apr 22, 2020)

Oepsie said:


> My di-20 is still burning in. One week in. It sounds at bit bright opposed to the unit I borrowed from a friend. Any experience with changes in tonal balance as the unit burns in? I’m a bit concerned..


Don't worry. You are in the boring period (day ~5 to day 10) of the burn in cycle. You will have a total different (excellent) sound after about two weeks... So a week more and Your smile will take off.
/Jan


----------



## DACLadder (May 5, 2020)

I'm not wasting any quarantine time... From the closet I pulled out the AGD Master 10 amp and trusted speakers.  Found my custom made ACSS cables and have it all running OK.  I have been missing out not using speakers!  Wow!  First time I heard the R7 with speakers...

Yesterday, I received my Mutec Ref 10 10Mhz clock.  It was instantaneous better sound after hooking up to the DI20HE.  The $35 budget priced OCXOs on Ebay are just not in the same league by a wide margin.  Save your money and buy a better 10M clock.


----------



## PeterCraig (Apr 26, 2020)

Nice cable alert for USA head fi crowd

0.5m Wireworld Silver Starlight

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details...lver-starlight-7-hdmi-05m-excellent-conditon/


----------



## Shahrose

soundlogic said:


> As I am listening to my DI-20HE, connected to an Auralic Aries G2 via Curious cable usb to DI—in parallel mode, connected to a Gustard C16, external clock mode chosen on DI—-HDMI out to PS Audio Directstream Dac....every  so often: it can be intervals from 60 seconds to 4-5 minutes... I get a very brief but extremely noticeable sonic anomaly that lasts about a second or less. This sounds as I’ve described earlier as a moment of out of phase/blur of soundstage/where a distinct sonic image in front of me has now gone extreme left and right outside the plane of the speakers. It is very distracting as one who likes to listen with his eyes closed, concentrating on the musical presentation, that just goes wonky for a moment. When this happens several times in a 5 minute period, it ruins my listening experience. Last night I tried the series mode, and listen for approx. 5 minutes...I did not notice the phase anomaly, but due to the vast sonic difference in my system using series mode...NOT MY PREFERENCE...I switched back toParallel mode quite quickly. Someone suggested it might be my HDMI...but I kind of doubt that. Hopefully Kingwa can determine the cause and issue a solution.



Did anyone figure out a solution to this momentary out-of-phase issue? I have a DI20 (bought it last week, arrived today). Sounds excellent. The best computer transport I've owned. However, I noticed the same aforementioned issue randomly and intermittently. It's fixed by stopping and replaying the song.


----------



## FredA

Shahrose said:


> Did anyone figure out a solution to this momentary out-of-phase issue? I have a DI20 (bought it last week, arrived today). Sounds excellent. The best computer transport I've owned. However, I noticed the same aforementioned issue randomly and intermittently. It's fixed by stopping and replaying the song.


Did you buy bit new? If not, you may need to perform a fw update. Had the issue too before the update.


----------



## Shahrose

FredA said:


> Did you buy bit new? If not, you may need to perform a fw update. Had the issue too before the update.



Yes I bought it new.


----------



## FredA

I assume you use an external clock. An issue could be that its frequency is too far off 10Mz. 

In any case, burn the unit for at least 350hours. Glitches can occur during the few houndred of hours.


----------



## Shahrose (Apr 26, 2020)

FredA said:


> I assume you use an external clock. An issue could be that its frequency is too far off 10Mz.
> 
> In any case, burn the unit for at least 350hours. Glitches can occur during the few houndred of hours.



Sorry should have provided more details. I'm using it bone stock. No external clock. I have the 90/98M version. My other equipment is in my signature and profile.

I'll continue burning it in and report back.

Just so others don't have to read only a boring problem post, I'll comment on the sound briefly. The effect the DI20 has on both my DACs in terms of technical performance (especially the Yggdrasil) is akin to changing the DAC entirely.
This is keeping in mind that DACs sound more similar than dissimilar in general and we're talking subtleties.


----------



## DACLadder (Apr 26, 2020)

@Shahrose  You may have original firmware 3.32.  A few DI20s but not all had the issue in parallel data mode but is OK switching to serial.  This a front panel 2nd page adjustment (P or S)

Or you can load the firmware update to 3.9.  Even with using 3.9 I still like serial data mode but parallel is good as well.
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm

As a test try switching to serial data mode and see if you have consistent performance.  Myself, FredA, soundlogic, and jimmychan all had this issue.  Welcome to the forum thread and enjoy the DI20.


----------



## FredA

Shahrose said:


> Sorry should have provided more details. I'm using it bone stock. No external clock. I have the 90/98M version. My other equipment is in my signature and profile.
> 
> I'll continue burning it in and report back.
> 
> ...


I assume you use the usb input?


----------



## Shahrose

DACLadder said:


> @Shahrose  You may have original firmware 3.32.  A few DI20s but not all had the issue in parallel data mode but is OK switching to serial.  This a front panel 2nd page adjustment (P or S)
> 
> Or you can load the firmware update to 3.9.  Even with using 3.9 I still like serial data mode but parallel is good as well.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
> ...



Thank you @DACLadder and @FredA . I've been on Head-fi since 2006  but took a hiatus for a while. I've asked Kingwa if mine has the latest firmware. I'd be surprised if it didn't considering I just purchased it a few days ago. 

I'll try serial vs parallel as well when I'm done work. 

@FredA, yes I'm using the USB input.


----------



## jimmychan

DACLadder said:


> @Shahrose  You may have original firmware 3.32.  A few DI20s but not all had the issue in parallel data mode but is OK switching to serial.  This a front panel 2nd page adjustment (P or S)
> 
> Or you can load the firmware update to 3.9.  Even with using 3.9 I still like serial data mode but parallel is good as well.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
> ...



I still have the same problem on the SPDIF input with the new firmware. The USB input has no problem, while I most of the time use USB input. The new firmware fixed the issue of the ext. clock input that I have before.


----------



## Shahrose (Apr 27, 2020)

Just confirmed with Kingwa, I have the latest 3.9 FW. I'm using the USB input and coaxial output (BNC to the Ref 7.1 and RCA to the Yggy).

It does happen very infrequently, maybe once every 15 songs or so. It seems to have become less frequent than when I first started it...that's strange.

What's more, sometimes if I quickly play and stop a song, I'll get this buzzing noise/signal in my speakers/headphones that only stops once I replay the song and stop it again.
Again, infrequent, but it's happened a few times now. I swapped two other transports in for the DI20 and neither problem occurs with either DAC.

I'm wondering if burn-in will get rid of both of these glitches (first time I've seen something like that happen). Otherwise the unit sounds excellent. Significant microdetail that wasn't discernible before with all my cans ie. HD800, Utopia and HE1000SE.

Edit: I also prefer the Parallel mode (as opposed to Serial), sounds sharper/more defined to me, but need to do more listening.


----------



## FredA

jimmychan said:


> I still have the same problem on the SPDIF input with the new firmware. The USB input has no problem, while I most of the time use USB input. The new firmware fixed the issue of the ext. clock input that I have before.


Same here with the spdif input.


----------



## rsbrsvp

DACLadder said:


> I am eagerly awaiting Kingwa to finish the new digital board for the R7 style DACs with integrated 10M clocking capability. That will be something to behold with the Ref 10 driving the clocks. May require backpanel change as some inputs are down on the PCB instead flying leads we see today. Plus the front panel display MCU may change as well for new functionality with R7 2020 firmware.



Will this new board be available seperately to upgrade my R-7HE or do I need to send in my R-7HE for the upgrade?


----------



## JaMo (May 5, 2020)

.


----------



## rsbrsvp

got it.


----------



## Oepsie

Two weeks + 1 day into the burning process with my DI-20 and I'm panicking a bit. Yesterday I tried different firmware and that definitely helped with the overly bright/harsh sound and calmed it but the unit still sounds quite lean opposed to the unit I borrowed from a friend before buying my unit.

I'm very much concerned that the sonic signature are due to variations in production and not fixed by burn in as it has had this signature through all of its phases until now?

The unit I borrowed had a amazing midrange where voices had a very distinct fullness to them and were super detailed and just made my entire system 'sing'. A sense of 'fullness' to the overall sound signature. And it could play anything with amazing rythmic/involving character.

My unit still sounds lean and quite thin in the midrange with too much focus on the bas and the top end. I'm definitely missing a more balanced sound...

Any thoughts on this anyone?


----------



## JaMo

Oepsie said:


> Two weeks + 1 day into the burning process with my DI-20 and I'm panicking a bit. Yesterday I tried different firmware and that definitely helped with the overly bright/harsh sound and calmed it but the unit still sounds quite lean opposed to the unit I borrowed from a friend before buying my unit.
> 
> I'm very much concerned that the sonic signature are due to variations in production and not fixed by burn in as it has had this signature through all of its phases until now?
> 
> ...



Keep it continuing burning in with power on. -Are You playing music material even if not listening? For XO's time with power on is relevant. With my experiences electronics matures quicker playing music material. Also digital gears benefit..  There are also so called "Burn in disks" for the people without any patience. The thing is.. "It just happends!" There is no exact time limit. Keep the faith and let some more time pass on. A week or two more and it should have transformed.
/Jan


----------



## nazhmd

JaMo said:


> Keep it continuing burning in with power on. -Are You playing music material even if not listening? For XO's time with power on is relevant. With my experiences electronics matures quicker playing music material. Also digital gears benefit..  There are also so called "Burn in disks" for the people without any patience. The thing is.. "It just happends!" There is no exact time limit. Keep the faith and let some more time pass on. A week or two more and it should have transformed.
> /Jan


I am 3 weeks in with the burning in process for the DI20HE and everything is heading in the right direction. Yesterday I received my OCXO clock board customized for 10 MHz with 2 square wave and 1 sine wave outputs from Queen*s_Land on EBay. Also got the KLOTZ 50 Ohm 1.5 m BNC cable. No problem making the connections and switching to the external clock. Everything just opened up, initially slightly bright but after 3 hrs settled down. Did a quick peek inside and the oven is BIG and would take 16 to 20 Accusilicons to fit in that space. I already like what I am hearing, how long is it going to take for the external clock to be at its best if the internal clock is supposed to take 1000 hrs ( 500 hrs as of yesterday). Since the DI20HE take at least 6 weeks to completely burn-in, I also applied 10 Synergistic Research ECT to the boards because they too take that long to do their thing. I could not see waiting an additional 6 weeks for another burning process. I am very happy with my purchase, my PS Audio DSD Sr dac never sounded better it too has ECT on its boards.


----------



## rsbrsvp

If anyone is interested in my Morion 10MHZ clock MV89A 2009 please PM me.

I just ordered a Mutec Ref10 SE-120 so I wont be needing the Morion any more.


----------



## FredA (Apr 29, 2020)

@nazhmd The external clock won't take long. Tomorrow, it should beat the internal ones. Try the square wave with parallel mode.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> If anyone is interested in my Morion 10MHZ clock MV89A 2009 please PM me.
> 
> I just ordered a Mutec Ref10 SE-120 so I wont be needing the Morion any more.


Where from?


----------



## rsbrsvp

Got it from a mutec dealer in Singapore,  but all the dealers have it now.


----------



## rsbrsvp

This guy has the cheapest price for the se-120 but I do not know if he is legit...

info@highend-broker.com


----------



## nazhmd

FredA said:


> @nazhmd The external clock won't take long. Tomorrow, it should beat the internal ones. Try the square wave with parallel mode.


Thanks FredA


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> This guy has the cheapest price for the se-120 but I do not know if he is legit...
> 
> info@highend-broker.com


I am pretty sure he is. Where are you located, Steven?


----------



## DACLadder

@rsbrsvp Congrats on the SE120!  Fantastic!  The regular Ref 10 is excellent with DI20HE/R7.  No complaints.  Worth every dollar spent.  

Do you have the R7HE 2020 as well?  I can imagine what the SE120 adds to your pleasure.

Highend Broker is legit but not an authorized Mutec distributor.  Only recently can no longer sell new Mutec products.


----------



## Thenewguy007

rsbrsvp said:


> Got it from a mutec dealer in Singapore,  but all the dealers have it now.



Did you get a good deal?


----------



## rsbrsvp (Apr 29, 2020)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Did you get a good deal?



I paid less than suggested retail by a decent amount but Highend Broker was quite a bit less even than the Singapore dealer.  I was unwilling to buy from a NON-distributor however; to risky.  I only wanted to purchase from a distributor whose name was on the distributor list of Mutec.

I am located in Israel.


----------



## joyck888

FredA said:


> @nazhmd The external clock won't take long. Tomorrow, it should beat the internal ones. Try the square wave with parallel mode.


Hi Fred,

Clock setting in the display , should be "C" or "L" .     I am using  MOrion ext. clock now.  thx


----------



## joyck888

joyck888 said:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> Clock setting in the display , should be "C" or "L" .     I am using  MOrion ext. clock now.  thx



Found the answer, output so does not matter.


----------



## FredA

joyck888 said:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> Clock setting in the display , should be "C" or "L" .     I am using  MOrion ext. clock now.  thx


Does not matter, that is for the clock output.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I paid less than suggested retail by a decent amount but Highend Broker was quite a bit less even than the Singapore dealer.  I was unwilling to buy from a NON-distributor however; to risky.  I only wanted to purchase from a distributor whose name was on the distributor list of Mutec.
> 
> I am located in Israel.


I asked cause in America, we have to go though North Americain distribution and pay more...


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Apr 30, 2020)

DACLadder said:


> Yesterday, I received my Mutec Ref 10 10Mhz clock.  It was instantaneous better sound after hooking up to the DI20HE.  The $35 budget priced OCXOs on Ebay are just not in the same league by a wide margin.  Save your money and buy a better 10M clock.



I have held off on the 10Mhz clock rabbit hole for a long time, as the period of time when I received my R7HE and subsequently the DI-20HE, was a busy one and I only ran in the internal clocks while listening.  Enjoyed the slow journey as this was my 5th & 6th AGD rodeo so I knew what to expect heheh.  Around end Feb, all the burn in was finally complete. 

After reading about the Queen-eBay Morion OXCO, I decided to give it a try.  Went with their silver plated BNC cable and the same spec that others here ordered. However, I had a suitable spare connection from a customised LPS I have on hand, so I have the OXCO powered by the LPS via a pure silver DC cable. 

Looking at the spec sheets, the Morion is clearly inferior to the Mutec REF10 by some margin, but hey, it costs just 10% of the Mutec.  With the LPS in place, the improvement of my little external clock on the DI-20HE vs the std internal acusilicons is audible.  To my ears, there is more air around sounds - whether they be vocals or insturments, and also less sharpness on badly recorded pop (eg bruno mars). 

Of course the Morion OXCO with a dedicated LPS wouldn't be such a cheap proposition anymore, but I had a spare output handy, so....   In the meantime, while an itch to sample Mutec's finest has started to develop, the current economic climate is an instant snap back to reality.  Future goals perhaps haha.


----------



## DACLadder (May 5, 2020)

I wasn't a true believer in external 10M clocks until I hooked up the Mutec Ref 10 to the DI20HE.  How can a synthesized audio clock be better than dedicated XOs especially coming from the DDC?   The Ref 10 proved my assumptions were wrong.  The Morion has much better specs than the two Oscilloquartz boards I used previously.  And using square wave instead of sine wave 10M clocks helped as well.


----------



## FredA

UsoppNoKami said:


> I have held off on the 10Mhz clock rabbit hole for a long time, as the period of time when I received my R7HE and subsequently the DI-20HE, was a busy one and I only ran in the internal clocks while listening.  Enjoyed the slow journey as this was my 5th & 6th AGD rodeo so I knew what to expect heheh.  Around end Feb, all the burn in was finally complete.
> 
> After reading about the Queen-eBay Morion OXCO, I decided to give it a try.  Went with their silver plated BNC cable and the same spec that others here ordered. However, I had a suitable spare connection from a customised LPS I have on hand, so I have the OXCO powered by the LPS via a pure silver DC cable.
> 
> ...


I find the morion really good and am enjoying my setup a lot using it, great affordable choice,


----------



## Zachik

Question on external clocks:
I am still on the fence, getting closer to decide on buying the DI-20HE (or cheap out and get DI-20). My DAC does not have external clock input, and I have no intention to replace my DAC!
My question is, would I benefit from external clock if it ONLY connects to the DI-20HE (or DI-20)?  or would it be a tiny tiny improvement without DAC driven by it?
Also, if considering external clock - should I buy the cheapest DI-20 version, or still opt for the better internal clocks / oscillators?
(I guess that was 2 questions... )


----------



## Thenewguy007

Do you guys really think the  Mutec Ref 10 is worth it? 
I mean it sells for $4,000. The Master 7 DAC & DI-20HE combined don't cost as much.


----------



## DACLadder (May 1, 2020)

The Mutec Ref 10 may be an overkill for the M7/ DI20HE but it would definitely sound better.  Had my M7S connected yesterday.


----------



## DACLadder

@Zachik  Good question about externally clocking the base DI20 versus a full blown DI20HE.  Would think the lower noise HE power supplies benefit external clocking.  Also wondered the same about the base DI20 and DI20 98/90.


----------



## Zachik

DACLadder said:


> @Zachik  Good question about externally clocking the base DI20 versus a full blown DI20HE.  Would think the lower noise HE power supplies benefit external clocking.  Also wondered the same about the base DI20 and DI20 98/90.


Hopefully one of the experts here (like Jan) would be able to answer my questions 
I suspected it probably makes sense to go DI-20HE (and not cheap out on the DI-20)...
But I am still wondering about how effective the external clock would be if connected ONLY to the DI-20HE?  (and I am NOT going to buy a $4,000 external clock!! )


----------



## FredA

Zachik said:


> Hopefully one of the experts here (like Jan) would be able to answer my questions
> I suspected it probably makes sense to go DI-20HE (and not cheap out on the DI-20)...
> But I am still wondering about how effective the external clock would be if connected ONLY to the DI-20HE?  (and I am NOT going to buy a $4,000 external clock!! )


The m7 is a synchronous dac when plugged though i2s. So the benefit of better clocking can be great if timing is not too affected by all the elements the signal has to go through to reach the FPGA. A reduced noise level on i2s line can help greatly with any dac  and perhaps even more so with the m7. 

My advice for you is to get the di20he and to buy a cheap ebay clock. If you prefer to external clock to the di20he after 1000h of burn in, get a better clock, it will be worth it. Yon can't go wrong with the di20he.


----------



## JaMo (May 1, 2020)

Zachik said:


> Question on external clocks:
> I am still on the fence, getting closer to decide on buying the DI-20HE (or cheap out and get DI-20). My DAC does not have external clock input, and I have no intention to replace my DAC!
> My question is, would I benefit from external clock if it ONLY connects to the DI-20HE (or DI-20)?  or would it be a tiny tiny improvement without DAC driven by it?
> Also, if considering external clock - should I buy the cheapest DI-20 version, or still opt for the better internal clocks / oscillators?
> (I guess that was 2 questions... )



First, I have no experience with the DI20 without the regen. The DI20HE I own answered/responded much better than I ever thought it would when I started to test with external XO's. For me that was a big surprise and after testing a few different XO's I realised that " it is here in this area, the time domain, the next steps up to higher performance is to find". Kingwa is perfecting his designs by optimizing layouts and programming, so for me it felt right to pay the rather big money, in my case for the Mutec REF 10 SE-120. But this is because I will continue to hook up more gears in the future when it will be possible. I cannot not recommend anyone to put that kind of money on a XO in that, highest levels. For me this music reproduction with my gears and the music listening is a main part and an important one in my life so the investment for me is logical. It gives me joy and happiness. It is worth it, for me.

The advice from me is the same as the one You got from Fred. Buy the DI20HE with known ability to respond very well on the EXT XO's connected. Try to get Your hands on a Morion MV89A 2009 as discussed here. Fred is using one and Steven (@rsbrsvp) is selling his.
Go with that and You have high performing budget solution. And from that level, You can decide further if You want to push things further.. But be aware, it will cost You the rest of the chain of gears and cables...

You have to be clear of the importance of this in Your life and what amount of money these things can cost for You. If this is important for You and You have an economy situation allowing to buy, this is the right place to address (DI20HE+ext XO) to start. You will enjoy the performance lift after the approx. 1 month of burn in on both DI and ext XO.
Good luck
/Jan


----------



## FredA

Some listening impression with the 2009 Morion clock and di20he. 

The album "Piano" by Jan Johansson is a great record and and recording. The sound is so tridimensional and real. Such an inspired record. Johansson is a spirited guy. I love his music. The setup is di20he to r7he to he9 to master3 to Osborn Eclipse speakers. My r7he is without the clock input. Still... This setup sounds like hires analog. With such depth that you are taken, the illusion of the band being there is so convincing, at times your are fooled. Imaging is as pinpoint as on the record. You hear the room, the echos, the reverbations out of the piano. If you like piano, i recommend both the setup and the record. 

I did some modding to the Morion. I bypassed regulation on the 12v pin of the ocxo, added some caps. I have ordered some 0.1uF wima caps to enhance things further. But the performance i get with it is already remarkable.


----------



## Zachik

JaMo said:


> Try to get Your hands on a Morion MV89A 2009 as discussed here.


What's so special about 2009 vintage?!  Do these oscillators have better years, like a Pinot Noir or something???


----------



## JaMo

Zachik said:


> What's so special about 2009 vintage?!  Do these oscillators have better years, like a Pinot Noir or something???



It seems to be a very good production year of the SC (Stress Compensated) crystals with a very low phase noise. Why? No idea...skilled russian engineers and workers that year..? This is precision in its highest form.
/Jan


----------



## smodtactical

Hey guys just found out about the audio gd DI20 and DI20HE. They seem like extremely well made products.. I have an HE9 in my chain. I would appreciate any and all advice (JaMo was nice enough to give me some direction already).

I previously had my PC -> sotm sms 200 ultra (with sps500) -> sotm dx usb -> AES -> Terminator V2. I sold off my sotm 200 ultra and sps 500 just because I had a issues with them (unrelated to sound quality). I was actually quite happy with sound quality. I just tested going PC (its a full gaming pc) -> ifi usb cable -> terminator VERSUS PC -> usb -> dx usb -> Aes -> terminator and immediately can hear a clear jump in microdetail, soundstage and airiness. 

I am now considering a new streamer and possibly a DI20 HE (I wonder how much better it is than the dx usb). 

I have heard the dcs bridge, lumin u1, auralic g2 are all amazing streamers but are of course pricey. Something pi based would be cheaper, maybe digi allosig one. But I would like the option to use roon so I am thinking of one of these roon endpoint streamers.

What direction should I go to both minimize cost but also attain SQ similar to the sotm 200 ultra level I had before?


----------



## jimmychan (May 2, 2020)

My solution that proved better than my dCS NB in my setup.
Roon Server (Intel NUC) > RPi4B (Ropieee Roon Bridge) > DI-20HE (i2s) > DAC

Ropieee Roon Bridge: https://ropieee.org/


----------



## FredA

The Allo usbridge signature works very well and is rpi3b+ based. You get cleaner and better clocked usb signal. I haven't compared to a regular pi however.


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Hey guys just found out about the audio gd DI20 and DI20HE. They seem like extremely well made products.. I have an HE9 in my chain. I would appreciate any and all advice (JaMo was nice enough to give me some direction already).
> 
> I previously had my PC -> sotm sms 200 ultra (with sps500) -> sotm dx usb -> AES -> Terminator V2. I sold off my sotm 200 ultra and sps 500 just because I had a issues with them (unrelated to sound quality). I was actually quite happy with sound quality. I just tested going PC (its a full gaming pc) -> ifi usb cable -> terminator VERSUS PC -> usb -> dx usb -> Aes -> terminator and immediately can hear a clear jump in microdetail, soundstage and airiness.
> 
> ...


The sotm dates from 2013 at least. I am not surprised it is beaten by the internal usb. I hear the T2 has a very well implemented usb input. Look for info on the t2 as to usb can be improved upon using SPDIF out of a high-quality transport. If the case, the di20he will certainly help, no doubt.


----------



## smodtactical

jimmychan said:


> My solution that proved better than my dCS NB in my setup.
> Roon Server (Intel NUC) > RPi4B (Ropieee Roon Bridge) > DI-20HE (i2s) > DAC
> 
> Ropieee Roon Bridge: https://ropieee.org/



So like $400 for nuc, $100 for RPi4b, $1000 for DI20HE a total of $1500
DCS Bridge $6000-7000.

AMAZING!

Did you try a normal pc instead of nuc (like one you use for day to day work). I wonder if nuc sounds much cleaner.


----------



## smodtactical

FredA said:


> The sotm dates from 2013 at least. I am not surprised it is beaten by the internal usb. I hear the T2 has a very well implemented usb input. Look for info on the t2 as to usb can be improved upon using SPDIF out of a high-quality transport. If the case, the di20he will certainly help, no doubt.



Fred I meant the sotm dx usb was the one that improved sound a lot over just straight usb. But I think my old setup of 200 ultra -> dx usb -> aes dac was even better and I want to get back to that quality.

I talked to Kingwa and he said he may release a Pi based streamer in a couple months. I am excited about that!


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Fred I meant the sotm dx usb was the one that improved sound a lot over just straight usb. But I think my old setup of 200 ultra -> dx usb -> aes dac was even better and I want to get back to that quality.
> 
> I talked to Kingwa and he said he may release a Pi based streamer in a couple months. I am excited about that!


That's great! Another thing to buy! Not sure i will though. But my comment still applies, the di20he has an analog sound with great imaging/soundstaging. It is above the u16, easily above, as a reference.


----------



## jimmychan (May 2, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> So like $400 for nuc, $100 for RPi4b, $1000 for DI20HE a total of $1500
> DCS Bridge $6000-7000.
> 
> AMAZING!
> ...



For the Roon Server, I have tried setup on QNAP, Synology, Normal PC, ROCK, and NUC, they all appear not much differences in sound quality.
My configuration is Roon Server > RPi4 (Ropieee Roon Bridge) > DI-20HE. I think the RPi4 and DI-20HE have done a great job to regenerate and re-clock the data.

I bought a Intel NUC 10710 for Roon Server because of it low power consumption and I connect it to my 4K TV for watching TV programs.


----------



## smodtactical

So overall it seems that a basic Rpi streamer + DI20HE can compete with very expensive streamers. Thats interesting.


----------



## JaMo (May 2, 2020)

Not so very surprising taken that the most important timing is the last one producing a clean and correct timed bit transfer signal to the DAC (Digital to analogue conversion). If there is a buffering in conjunction to it, the network transfer is less critical. A good reclocking covers up earlier mistakes/weaknesses, meaning streamer can be almost any if the electronics in it is in good shape and code written is efficient and good..., The later Raspberry pi's are excellent if fed with a good and silent power supply.
/Jan


----------



## jimmychan

This is exactly what a Linn streamer doing. It buffers the data, Re-clock and regenerate the signal with near perfect timing Then feed in the DAC.


----------



## smodtactical

Did you consider the Linn then for a simpler solution Jimmychan?

Also thoughts on NDK clock that is in Pi2AES ? Apparently its better than the accusilicon clocks?

https://www.ndk.com/en/products/search/clock/1190904_1433.html
http://www.pi2design.com/store/p19/PI2AES_-_PRO_AUDIO_SHIELD.html


----------



## JaMo

smodtactical said:


> Did you consider the Linn then for a simpler solution Jimmychan?
> 
> Also thoughts on NDK clock that is in Pi2AES ? Apparently its better than the accusilicon clocks?
> 
> ...



You are really "all over the place". -What are You up to? ..Or trying to get? My most common advice is to "learn about what are You about to buy". Otherwise You are an easy target for frauds.


----------



## FredA (May 2, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> So overall it seems that a basic Rpi streamer + DI20HE can compete with very expensive streamers. Thats interesting.


What is key with the di20 is the amanero is fed the same clock as the fpga, so the output jitter can be as low as that of the xos, or near. Same story when an external clock is used. Kingwa has done a fantastic job IMO. The 90/98 version is to be favored cause it derives the needed  clock signals without using a pll. As for deriving the clock signals from the 10mhz, Kingwa uses a digital pll. Great stuff.

I am sure his pi-based streamer will be  special.

As usual, Kingwa should give us a lot for our money.


----------



## smodtactical (May 3, 2020)

JaMo said:


> You are really "all over the place". -What are You up to? ..Or trying to get? My most common advice is to "learn about what are You about to buy". Otherwise You are an easy target for frauds.



Sorry Jamo, I am just getting a suggestion from someone on our discord. But I think you guys make a lot of sense with the DI20HE. I think even the on board clocks im sure are great and will probably out perform the pi2aes.

I am trying to optimize my computer audio. I used to do it with sotm 200 ultra and dx usb. I sold the sotm 200 ultra so now deciding on how to get to my former level of SQ (or better) via either streaming or good digital interface.


----------



## comzee (May 3, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Also thoughts on NDK clock that is in Pi2AES ? Apparently its better than the accusilicon clocks?



Not to get too off topic of the thread but..I just ordered a Pi2AES, the NDK clocks are also apparently better than the CCHD-957 in my Singxer SU-6 by 10%.
With all the parts you need for pi2aes, it comes in at about $320. I've been told by fellow audio friends it's better than rednet3. I'd bet it's better than SU-6 or Gustard u16 as well.

pi2aes can be used as Roon bridge, could also plug a USB DDC into it (like di-20he). Chalking up to be a really winner in the digital audio space for the price.
Thought I'd try it out as a detour to my eventual goal of buying di-20he + external clock.

Be warned tho, they're on a big back order, month shipping times last time I checked.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Just got my ref10 120-SE.

After one hour burn in, the Morion MV89a is still ahead- but not by much......
I need to allow that two week burn-in...


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Just got my ref10 120-SE.
> 
> After one hour burn in, the Morion MV89a is still ahead- but not by much......
> I need to allow that two week burn-in...


Great. Nice to know how the two compare, especially after burn-in.


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> Just got my ref10 120-SE.
> 
> After one hour burn in, the Morion MV89a is still ahead- but not by much......
> I need to allow that two week burn-in...



What BNC-cables do You use?


----------



## rsbrsvp (May 3, 2020)

RG400/U 30cm to both the DI and the R-7HE 2020...

The mutec has now surpassed the Morion after 3-4 hours of burn-in--- but not by much (yet)...... ---- a bit cleaner and clearer.......- say 5-7% ahead for now....


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> RG400/U 30cm to both the DI and the R-7HE 2020...
> 
> The mutec has now surpassed the Morion after 3-4 hours of burn-in--- but not by much (yet)...... ---- a bit cleaner and clearer.......- say 5-7% ahead for now....


Good. I remember a fluctuation in the sound the first 24hrs. The bass was first to shape up. The other frequencies took about 14 days to be stunning... I think it started to shine with a perfect instrument and room definition after about three weeks.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I'm excited to wait this one out....


----------



## jimmychan (May 3, 2020)

comzee said:


> Not to get too off topic of the thread but..I just ordered a Pi2AES, the NDK clocks are also apparently better than the CCHD-957 in my Singxer SU-6 by 10%.
> With all the parts you need for pi2aes, it comes in at about $320. I've been told by fellow audio friends it's better than rednet3. I'd bet it's better than SU-6 or Gustard u16 as well.
> 
> pi2aes can be used as Roon bridge, could also plug a USB DDC into it (like di-20he). Chalking up to be a really winner in the digital audio space for the price.
> ...



I doubt the SQ of pi2aes, I had one similar hat with WM8804 AES out, the SQ is just so so.
I even think it can not beat U16. The pi2aes is lack of many features and functions that U16 has.


----------



## smodtactical

Ok so I talked to the queensland seller on ebay, he showed me pics of the external clock box and linear PSU he recommends:
















jimmychan said:


> I doubt the SQ of pi2aes, I had one similar hat with WM8804 AES out, the SQ is just so so.
> I even think it can not beat U16. The pi2aes is lack of many features and functions that U16 has.



Jimmy the member of the Sonic visions discord mentions that the I2S out on the pi2aes is far superior to aes out.


----------



## smodtactical

Does the MV89 external clock take over and replace the function of the internal DI20HE clock?


----------



## JaMo

smodtactical said:


> Does the MV89 external clock take over and replace the function of the internal DI20HE clock?


Yes. That's the whole idea with an external HQ reference oscillator. If You have the ability to also add the dac to the same reference XO with the exact length of (short < 0.5 m), You are set with a very nice listening
/J


----------



## jimmychan

smodtactical said:


> Ok so I talked to the queensland seller on ebay, he showed me pics of the external clock box and linear PSU he
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy the member of the Sonic visions discord mentions that the I2S out on the pi2aes is far superior to aes out.



I realise the I2S is superior than AES out. I am also using I2S out for my DAC.
I think the I2S out of U16 may be better than pi2aes’ I2S out.


----------



## comzee

jimmychan said:


> I think the I2S out of U16 may be better than pi2aes’ I2S out.



The NDK clocks measure better than the AS318-B in the U16.
Not to say that automatically makes it better, but it's also built on top of a custom made for audio linux OS, and bypasses any USB f*ckery.
Huge plus for me, when I eventually get DI-20HE, I can connect it to the pi2aes which is better designed for audio than any MAC or Windows OS.

I'll report back with my findings. If it's much better than my own su-6, undoubtedly will beat out U16.


----------



## jimmychan

Looking forward to see your findings.


----------



## smodtactical

comzee said:


> The NDK clocks measure better than the AS318-B in the U16.
> Not to say that automatically makes it better, but it's also built on top of a custom made for audio linux OS, and bypasses any USB f*ckery.
> Huge plus for me, when I eventually get DI-20HE, I can connect it to the pi2aes which is better designed for audio than any MAC or Windows OS.
> 
> I'll report back with my findings. If it's much better than my own su-6, undoubtedly will beat out U16.


So you are doing pi2AES via spdif into DI20HE ?


----------



## Toni-Mang

Received the DI20HE today...out of the Box, same authorithy as my PS Audio pwt...maybe a touch more. There is a jump factor, out of the black background! Large presentation...not as thin as the u16 or the Amanero iso card.
More Bass, but not yet as defined. Soundstage width and depth as suggested to the clock burn in time, narrow. But the phase related image placement is perfect, and the instruments are already forcefull in the space. The DI is by far better out of the Box as the U16...by far, not even the same game...
I know from the R8, burn in will enlarge the space, will get the bass and the highs correct. What a bargain...
As mentiond, i have 2 hdmi inputs on my R8, PWT and DI... 
I measure no relevant AC on the case without ground (Phase check?)? Is this due to the "HE"?


----------



## JaMo

Toni-Mang said:


> Received the DI20HE today...out of the Box, same authorithy as my PS Audio pwt...maybe a touch more. There is a jump factor, out of the black background! Large presentation...not as thin as the u16 or the Amanero iso card.
> More Bass, but not yet as defined. Soundstage width and depth as suggested to the clock burn in time, narrow. But the phase related image placement is perfect, and the instruments are already forcefull in the space. The DI is by far better out of the Box as the U16...by far, not even the same game...
> I know from the R8, burn in will enlarge the space, will get the bass and the highs correct. What a bargain...
> As mentiond, i have 2 hdmi inputs on my R8, PWT and DI...
> I measure no relevant AC on the case without ground (Phase check?)? Is this due to the "HE"?



Conratulations! You are in for a roller coaster. Stunning the first hours.. The performance will go up and down for a while. 2-3 weeks before settled. Keep it with power on and playing music.
Enjoy.
/J


----------



## Thenewguy007

smodtactical said:


> Ok so I talked to the queensland seller on ebay, he showed me pics of the external clock box and linear PSU he recommends:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Any links for them?


----------



## smodtactical

Yup here:  https://www.ebay.ca/itm/333515921843?ul_noapp=true


----------



## smodtactical

Looks like DI 20 HE has some competition:

New denafrips DDCs, Iris and Gaia

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-gaia
https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-iris


----------



## FredA (May 7, 2020)

I hope for them they benched the DI20HE cause it is half the price. So their high-end offering  better be very good.


----------



## FredA

The external clock input is not 10M, but 45 or 49Mhz. Good decision, higher is better but bad decision cause 10Mhz is the standard. I assume they will release a clock unit.


----------



## FredA

You should hear my setup with the morion clock, without even the 10Mhz input on the r7he.

Mind-blowing good every day of the week! Denafrips can put out whatever they want,  i owe fidelity to Kingwa.


----------



## comzee

FredA said:


> You should hear my setup with the morion clock, without even the 10Mhz input on the r7he.



Is that already built case (references a few posts above) that queensland sells a good option for Morion?
Or do you think getting just Morion alone without the PCB and Case is better?


----------



## FredA (May 7, 2020)

comzee said:


> Is that already built case (references a few posts above) that queensland sells a good option for Morion?
> Or do you think getting just Morion alone without the PCB and Case is better?


Not sure. I had to fix my pcb  cause there was an instability issue. Queen found a fix quickly and i applied it i.e. I bypassed the 12v regulator (i could also have replaced an electrolytic cap) . Without my asking, he then gave me a discount.  

I added some caps to enhance perf. Given i am using an ultra-low noise lps, i decided to keep the bypass.  I have ordered 0.1uF Wima caps to enhance things further. Queen is a really nice guy. He did some customization  as i requested to get the optimal signal level and two square outputs,  which i strongly recommend along using the parallel mode.

If you don't want to spend a small fortune, get the 1989 mv89 Morion, the performance it gives is just way above the Dapu i had before, which still provided an audible upgrade

With the mv89a, bass quality and tridimensionality are out of this world. Resolution was also enhanced without any question. Never had such consistently good performance night after night. This is addictive.


----------



## Jackula (May 7, 2020)

FredA said:


> The external clock input is not 10M, but 45 or 49Mhz. Good decision, higher is better but bad decision cause 10Mhz is the standard. I assume they will release a clock unit.



I believe they have a partnering brand that offers 45/49mhz clocks. I can't remember the name but I can find out. Edit: Jos Audio, they don't have a website as they're a small manufacturer based in China that is in the same group as Denafrips.


----------



## jimmychan

It is good for the market to have more choices, and also it shows this will become the main stream for CAS. A Rpi/PC + DDC will form a high performance streamer. No need to buy expensive Network player.


----------



## Zachik

smodtactical said:


> Looks like DI 20 HE has some competition:
> 
> New denafrips DDCs, Iris and Gaia
> 
> ...


Super curious to learn more - the Gaia is too pricey (~$1600) but the Iris is less than $500 shipped!!! cheaper than the base version DI-20, smaller chassis (advantage for me), and so if it is comparable in performance and sound quality - I would be very tempted to try it (unfortunately NO reviews or early impressions, yet).


----------



## smodtactical

jimmychan said:


> It is good for the market to have more choices, and also it shows this will become the main stream for CAS. A Rpi/PC + DDC will form a high performance streamer. No need to buy expensive Network player.



Jimmy does your rpi4b have any HAT board on it ?


----------



## smodtactical

Zachik said:


> Super curious to learn more - the Gaia is too pricey (~$1600) but the Iris is less than $500 shipped!!! cheaper than the base version DI-20, smaller chassis (advantage for me), and so if it is comparable in performance and sound quality - I would be very tempted to try it (unfortunately NO reviews or early impressions, yet).



I offered Alvin to review either unit and publish on www.sonicvisions.org. We'll see what he says. I also offered to review soundaware d300ref but I don't think these guys are too interested. Must be selling well already without many reviews.


----------



## jimmychan

smodtactical said:


> Jimmy does your rpi4b have any HAT board on it ?


It is just a plain Rpi4 powered by a LPS.


----------



## Zachik

smodtactical said:


> I offered Alvin to review either unit and publish on www.sonicvisions.org. We'll see what he says. I also offered to review soundaware d300ref but I don't think these guys are too interested. Must be selling well already without many reviews.


From the limited info available, I think the cheaper Iris would be direct competitor to DI-20 (not DI-20HE). Not sure which clocks level (base, or updated clocks)...
The Gaia is VERY expensive, has TXCO clocks, and would be position at or above the level of the DI-20HE.
The big question, as always, is how does it compare in real life, as opposed to on-paper?
I am very tempted by the Iris but if it is inferior to the base DI-20 - it might not be a great deal after all.....


----------



## JaMo (May 8, 2020)

OT warning.

Please start a Denafrips/"or other brand" thread and discuss Your findings on it/them there. I look forward to read about their performance and behavior there. A listing of competitors with unknown performance is irrelevant for this thread.

In this thread, Audio-gd's DI20 and DI20HE and facts and findings with them is in focus.

We all have to help to keep some discipline in the threads. If a comparison thread is relevant to start, do it and name it with the competitors names so we can follow...
/Jan


----------



## smodtactical

Jimmy when you compared dcs bridge to DI20 HE + rpi, did you have a audiophile PSU on the rpi and 10 mhz master clock on DI20 HE ?


----------



## ProLoL (May 10, 2020)

Can someone describe in detail the DI20HE? what are it's strong points, sound signature etc.. a comparison against the U16 would be lovely.


----------



## jimmychan (May 10, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Jimmy when you compared dcs bridge to DI20 HE + rpi, did you have a audiophile PSU on the rpi and 10 mhz master clock on DI20 HE ?


By then Rpi4 with LPS and connected to U16, no 10MHz clock.


----------



## FredA

ProLoL said:


> Can someone describe in detail the DI20HE? what are it's strong points, sound signature etc.. a comparison against the U16 would be lovely.


The di20he has way better soundstaging, resolution, a warmer signature and blacker background. Last but not least, the di20he is more analog sounding, way more. Overall, it is very obviously much better.


----------



## ProLoL

FredA said:


> The di20he has way better soundstaging, resolution, a warmer signature and blacker background. Last but not least, the di20he is more analog sounding, way more. Overall, it is very obviously much better.



Thanks! so the DI20HE will be my next purchase. My only concern was the size of it but I guess I need a new table hehe.


----------



## jazzbug (May 13, 2020)




----------



## PLGA (May 16, 2020)

Hello guys
I've been having issues with my DI-20.

I've upgraded the firmware and it sounds superb, but Im having weird issues with the soundstage. Sometimes it moves closer to the right speaker and it colapses, as I think some of you also have mentioned on the thread.

I think it should be around 1.000 hours, so its already burned.

My chain is: Uptone Etherregen > SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo > DI-20 > R8 DAC with DOP firmware.

The connection between the DI-20 and the R8 is AES/EBU cable and the player is Audinirvana+ on Windows 10.

It gets restored reseting the DI-20, but also a few times, after doing it, I get static within the music or the channels are reversed and I have to restart it again. It happens on both, serial and parallel modes. 

Did anyone have a similar situation? Did you solve it? How?


----------



## jimmychan

Why don't you try the i2s connection with R8.


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Hello guys
> I've been having issues with my DI-20.
> 
> I've upgraded the firmware and it sounds superb, but Im having weird issues with the soundstage. Sometimes it moves closer to the right speaker and it colapses, as I think some of you also have mentioned on the thread.
> ...


I had all sorts of issue whe using the former usbridge to stream, both with the u16 and the di20he. Try a rpi as a player or a regular computer and see if the issue occurs. The usbridge signature cured it for me. If the player drops bits, the following audio samples will be corrupted.


----------



## Jandu (May 16, 2020)

PLGA said:


> Hello guys
> I've been having issues with my DI-20.
> 
> I've upgraded the firmware and it sounds superb, but Im having weird issues with the soundstage. Sometimes it moves closer to the right speaker and it colapses, as I think some of you also have mentioned on the thread.
> ...




My set up,  DI20HE to R8HE, is similar to yours.  My sources from USBridge or RPI4b (Hifiberry or Justbloom Hat) using coaxial with latest firmware on both DI20 and R8 work OK. My DI20 to R8 uses I2S.


----------



## FredA (May 16, 2020)

Jandu said:


> My set up,  DI20HE to R8HE, is similar to yours.  My sources from USBridge or RPI4b (Hifiberry or Justbloom Hat) using coaxial with latest firmware on both DI20 and R8 work OK. My DI20 to R8 uses I2S.


I also use i2s. I recommend it over spdif for sound quality when used with the Bluejeans cables series fe hdmi cable.


----------



## Oepsie

jazzbug said:


>


I tried this as well with my sotm sms-200 regular. Usually when the music changes sample rate or switching to external clock.

I even tried that it switched channels. That was really weird. It did not help to shut everything down. The only thing that worked was connecting my gustard u12 - the everything fell into place. Weird..

The static noise I contributed to my dac but might be something else..


----------



## Duncan_McCloud

May I ask someone the difference between the 10Mhz Input and the WCK OUT input ?
Also, for the firmware update, is it done using the input or the update port ?

Thanks!


----------



## FredA

Duncan_McCloud said:


> May I ask someone the difference between the 10Mhz Input and the WCK OUT input ?
> Also, for the firmware update, is it done using the input or the update port ?
> 
> Thanks!


Wck out is a configurable clock OUTPUT.

The dsp firmware update is done through the update port. An altera usb blaster is needed. The amanero fw can be updated through usb.


----------



## Duncan_McCloud

FredA said:


> Wck out is a configurable clock OUTPUT.
> 
> The dsp firmware update is done through the update port. An altera usb blaster is needed. The amanero fw can be updated through usb.



Thank you very much.

Looks like the alter usb blaster is a must have then.

For the clock, if I have studied well, there are 2 way then:

1. Use an external clock using the 10MHz input
2. Use the internal clock and for example, connect the Wck Output to a DAC which have a clock input. In this way one could connect the DI20 to the R-7 using the WCK Output, and both will use the DI20 Clock. Am i Wrong ?


----------



## FredA (May 16, 2020)

PLGA said:


> t? How?


Perhaps u


Duncan_McCloud said:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> Looks like the alter usb blaster is a must have then.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are. The r7 2020 accepts only a 10mhz signal. So the way to go is to use a 10M clock unit with two or more outputs. The di20 does not output 10mhz.


----------



## Duncan_McCloud

FredA said:


> Yes, you are. The r7 2020 accepts only a 10mhz signal. So the way to go is to use a 10M clock unit with two or more outputs. The di20 does not output 10mhz.



Good. Then I don't get the use of the WCK OUT. Guess I need to study more.


----------



## FredA

Duncan_McCloud said:


> Good. Then I don't get the use of the WCK OUT. Guess I need to study more.


Yes. In any case, using a 10M feeding both brings a very significant sound quality jump if the rest of you gears and your 10M clock are up to the task. I only have it on the di20he for now and the improvement is significant.


----------



## PLGA

jimmychan said:


> Why don't you try the i2s connection with R8.



Well, I've tried the Bluejeans Belden HDMI some time ago, but I kept the a fake Nordost Odin AES/EBU cable as it sounded more relaxed to my ears, more analog like, but keeping the same level of detail and soundstage. I think the I2S connection also had the same problem. I will try it again. Thank you for the suggestion.


----------



## PLGA

FredA said:


> I had all sorts of issue whe using the former usbridge to stream, both with the u16 and the di20he. Try a rpi as a player or a regular computer and see if the issue occurs. The usbridge signature cured it for me. If the player drops bits, the following audio samples will be corrupted.



Thank you Fred for the suggestion, but the SMS-200 Ultra Neo is a very nice and somehow expensive streamer and I think I must find the solution. May be asking Kingwa to upgrade the firmware as I think the problem happens more when the next song has a different sample rate than the previous one.


----------



## PLGA

Oepsie said:


> I tried this as well with my sotm sms-200 regular. Usually when the music changes sample rate or switching to external clock.
> 
> I even tried that it switched channels. That was really weird. It did not help to shut everything down. The only thing that worked was connecting my gustard u12 - the everything fell into place. Weird..
> 
> The static noise I contributed to my dac but might be something else..



Well, I think the problem happens more, like you say, when the sample rate changes between songs. I listen to all of my music streaming Tidal and my lists have a mix of HiFi songs (44.1) and MQA. I've tried upsamplig and not upsamplig on Audinirvana and the problem persist, but I still have some other configurations I can try. Its weird because last night it happened more than ever, but it's also true that I resently updated my Tidal lists adding more MQA songs on them. I think is something like Fred said about corrupted data that goes from the SMS-200 to the DI-20 when changing sample rates, but I also think the DI-20 should manage that and not be so sensitive about it, because, once it happens, it doesn't get fixed by it self.

Also it doesn't get fixed if I only restart Audinirvana or if I change inputs on the R8. I have to restart at least the DI-20 and sometimes both, the DI-20 and the SMS-200. I think I will email Kingwa about it. It's a downside for the DI-20 as many people change sample rates during listening sessions, Tidal users and not.

By the way, I have the Gustard U16. Are you saying that you have your Gustard U12 between the SMS-200 and the DI-20 to fix the problem? That's another solution I'm not sure I want to use, another device in the digital rig... it's just too much.


----------



## jimmychan

My setup is Rpi4 > DI-20HE > i2s > DAC, no noise whatsoever changing sampling rates.


----------



## PLGA

jimmychan said:


> My setup is Rpi4 > DI-20HE > i2s > DAC, no noise whatsoever changing sampling rates.



Well, I dont have poping noise while changing tracks, the most frequent problem is a weird narrow soundstage closer to the right speaker and a few times, after restarting the DI-20, noise within the music or channels reversed.


----------



## Jandu (May 16, 2020)

Jandu said:


> My set up,  DI20HE to R8HE, is similar to yours.  My sources from USBridge or RPI4b (Hifiberry or Justbloom Hat) using coaxial with latest firmware on both DI20 and R8 work OK. My DI20 to R8 uses I2S.



Just to be sure: 

When you flash your R8 firmware to the latest. You need to change the hard wire configuration for the connector as well. 
I assumed you have done that when you updated your firmware?


----------



## PLGA

Jandu said:


> Just to be sure:
> 
> When you flash your R8 firmware to the latest. You need to change the hard wire configuration for the connector as well.
> I assumed you have done that when you updated your firmware?



Yes, I swaped the cables inside the R8 according to Kingwa's instructions. 

To be clear, the system works fine almost all the time and, when it does, it sounds superb.


----------



## newabc (May 16, 2020)

Will the power lost have side-effect to our audio equipment?
Recently at least 3 power-losts happened on my source and DI-20 because I just power off the DAC and amp only when I don't play music.


----------



## Oepsie (May 17, 2020)

PLGA said:


> Well, I think the problem happens more, like you say, when the sample rate changes between songs. I listen to all of my music streaming Tidal and my lists have a mix of HiFi songs (44.1) and MQA. I've tried upsamplig and not upsamplig on Audinirvana and the problem persist, but I still have some other configurations I can try. Its weird because last night it happened more than ever, but it's also true that I resently updated my Tidal lists adding more MQA songs on them. I think is something like Fred said about corrupted data that goes from the SMS-200 to the DI-20 when changing sample rates, but I also think the DI-20 should manage that and not be so sensitive about it, because, once it happens, it doesn't get fixed by it self.
> 
> Also it doesn't get fixed if I only restart Audinirvana or if I change inputs on the R8. I have to restart at least the DI-20 and sometimes both, the DI-20 and the SMS-200. I think I will email Kingwa about it. It's a downside for the DI-20 as many people change sample rates during listening sessions, Tidal users and not.
> 
> By the way, I have the Gustard U16. Are you saying that you have your Gustard U12 between the SMS-200 and the DI-20 to fix the problem? That's another solution I'm not sure I want to use, another device in the digital rig... it's just too much.


No no. The channel switch only went away when I substituted the di-20 with the u12. I have not tried with both in the chain at the same time


----------



## jazzbug (May 17, 2020)

Oepsie said:


> I tried this as well with my sotm sms-200 regular. Usually when the music changes sample rate or switching to external clock.
> 
> I even tried that it switched channels. That was really weird. It did not help to shut everything down. The only thing that worked was connecting my gustard u12 - the everything fell into place. Weird..
> 
> The static noise I contributed to my dac but might be something else..


As per Amanero's reply for WASAPI jRiver will need to set DOP, then the high pitch's gone. But when I skip to next track or choose different track while playing, it starts to stutter. Then full stop and play again gets back to normal. I guess there is still bugs of Amanero WASAPI output.

To be frank I was not really impressed with DI20HE ASIO after 2 days burn in, I thought it lost the soundstage, clarity and dynamic comparing with my PC USB to DAC. (HDPLEX case & LPS with server MB/CPU/ram/dedicated USB card/all customized data & power cable/WS 2012 optimised/Fidelizer Purist setting).

But my PC WASAPI USB to DAC could be bit grainny, and bit harsh on the highs with some recording. WASAPI was my preference originally, ASIO is too dark to be smooth sacrificing the energy. This is my same impression from DI20HE in day 3.

Yesterday of day 4th I got myself listening DI20HE output WASAPI for the whole day, it was quite bright with symphony in the morning, got better with audiophile vocal in the afternoon.

Today I switch to ASIO with the same track route, thank goodness it improves much better than before, feels the veil is lifting up. If it's on the correct track I'd stay with ASIO definitely. Now I'm waiting for further open up with ongoing burn in.

BTW, its 12S input to PS Audio DSD, but no option for external clock.


----------



## Oepsie

Btw my unit went back to the dealer on Friday. The lean character in the midrange persisted all the way during burn-in. So, eagerly awaiting the replacement!

My friend and I tried with an external OXCO clock and the leanness was still there. Still sounded off balance.. but OMG my friends di-20 was brilliant with the externl clock. A massive improvement, especially with the tone of instruments!! Much more natural. The di-20 was good by itself but at some point, I’m definitely going to try out an external clock in some form.


----------



## FredA

The di20  needs two weeks of continuous playback to sound right at all times. And 6 weeks for the burn in to be complete. The other other gears can be turned meanwhile.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Oepsie said:


> but OMG my friends di-20 was brilliant with the externl clock.


and what clock was that?

@FredA 
I must have asked you this countless times, and I did try searching my private messages first.
Can you tell me what streamer you got instead of the UltraRendu?


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> and what clock was that?
> 
> @FredA
> I must have asked you this countless times, and I did try searching my private messages first.
> Can you tell me what streamer you got instead of the UltraRendu?


Never tried the ultrarendu, i just use a modest usbridge signature from allo.com. Something anyone wanting to isolate a pc from the audio gear could use, set-up as a upnp renderer. I use it as a standalone player with great results.


----------



## FredA

Listening to the di20he with a 2009 Morion mv89a. Just can't believe the depth and presence. It is fabulous.


----------



## Oepsie

Wynnytsky said:


> and what clock was that?


The clock was this one with a 100$ LPS attached: https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-MHz-Dou...83.l10137.c10&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true

A double oven OCXO that gets very warm ) The price of the unit was about 50$ so nothing fancy. But the difference in sound was remarkable.


----------



## JaMo

I put up my Oscilloquartz for sale: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ocxo-oscillquartz-8663-xs-for-sale.932609/

A very good way to get a significant performance lift for small money
/J


----------



## rsbrsvp

The Morion MV89a 2009 is the best performance lift for the money I can imagine.  

The Mutec Ref 10 SE-120 is even better but price performance ratio is poor.....


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> The Morion MV89a 2009 is the best performance lift for the money I can imagine.
> 
> The Mutec Ref 10 SE-120 is even better but price performance ratio is poor.....


WOuld you pay to upgrade from the mv89a to the mutec ref-10?


----------



## rsbrsvp (May 20, 2020)

FredA said:


> WOuld you pay to upgrade from the mv89a to the mutec ref-10?



No.-- But:

1.  Everyones ears are different.
2.  I listen ONLY to headphones and speakers may show a bigger difference between the two clocks.

There is an improvement in the Ref 10 SE-120.  Clearer, fuller sound, darker background- Just excellent results- but to much money IMHO...

The irony is I don't believe that I would sell it now that I have it- as even though technically the difference is only moderate and not hugh- it is a meaningful difference to me.  Also- I really was not being fair in my rating of the MV89a price performance ratio because I was using a $1000 LPS to power it.


----------



## smodtactical

Ok so if I have a DAC that doesn't have a master clock input (denafrips terminator). Is there still a value of getting the MV89 clock box from the queensland seller and connecting it to the DI20 HE?

Right now I am doing PI4B -> Sotm dx usb -> Denafrips terminator (via AES) and really liking the result over just the pi4b or dx usb on its own.

So my plan is to change out the sotm dx usb for the DI20HE and get the MV89 and power the mv89 with a good LPS (maybe keces p8).


----------



## Ludique (May 20, 2020)

Those $100 Chinese ocxos draw c. 0.2A 12v once warm.

So it’s not a problem to use a low noise smaller 500mA power supply, i.e. a typical 1x lt3045 based one, after first using a bigger one for the heating. Never turn it off and everything is fine.


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Ok so if I have a DAC that doesn't have a master clock input (denafrips terminator). Is there still a value of getting the MV89 clock box from the queensland seller and connecting it to the DI20 HE?
> 
> Right now I am doing PI4B -> Sotm dx usb -> Denafrips terminator (via AES) and really liking the result over just the pi4b or dx usb on its own.
> 
> So my plan is to change out the sotm dx usb for the DI20HE and get the MV89 and power the mv89 with a good LPS (maybe keces p8).


With an audio-gd r7he dac, it is definitely worth it. It make a significant difference. If the Terminator reacts positively to transport upgrades in general, go for it. I get the best imaging and bass quality ever with this setup.


----------



## FredA (May 20, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> No.-- But:
> 
> 1.  Everyones ears are different.
> 2.  I listen ONLY to headphones and speakers may show a bigger difference between the two clocks.
> ...


Yes the mv89a is definitely very good and you are right, differences could be more obvious with speakers.


----------



## smodtactical

Is the mv89A better than the gustard C16 ?


----------



## comzee (May 20, 2020)

Has anybody experimented with USB front ends to the DI-20HE?
For example, sourcing it from a JCAT usb card, or a SOTM usb endpoint?

I'm wondering if connecting DI-20HE to better USB than PC gives, will be an improvement?


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Is the mv89A better than the gustard C16 ?


I would assume so. But never actually made the comparison. The Morion is quite cheaper.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Anyone try the OCXO clocks from aliexpress? They definitely look like a step up from the eBay ones
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32886409645.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32914500463.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000365752741.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000103764574.html


----------



## smodtactical

Thenewguy007 said:


> Anyone try the OCXO clocks from aliexpress? They definitely look like a step up from the eBay ones
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32886409645.html
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32914500463.html
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000365752741.html
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000103764574.html



Ya I wonder those look interesting.


----------



## rsbrsvp (May 21, 2020)

FredA said:


> Yes the mv89a is definitely very good and you are right, differences could be more obvious with speakers




The one area where I really appreciate the Ref 10 SE-120 over the Morion is the fullness of the sound in the entire frequency.  The Morion has a  very full bass but the Ref 10 has a fuller midrange and treble as well.  I love that full midrange...........  and that is why I probably can't go back to the Morion- even though it is fantastic...

Nevertheless- it is a very expensive upgrade-- and the LAST one I would do.  Spend the money of power cables, IC's, and good USB and HDMI cables and very importantly- anti-vibration pads first.  Much more bang for the buck.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> The one area where I really appreciate the Ref 10 SE-120 over the Morion is the fullness of the sound in the entire frequency.  The Morion has a  very full bass but the Ref 10 has a fuller midrange and treble as well.  I love that full midrange...........  and that is why I probably can't go back to the Morion- even though it is fantastic...
> 
> Nevertheless- it is a very expensive upgrade-- and the LAST one I would do.  Spend the money of power cables, IC's, and good USB and HDMI cables and very importantly- anti-vibration pads first.  Much more bang for the buck.


The thing is you ref-10se needs more burn-in.


----------



## rsbrsvp (May 21, 2020)

two weeks is pretty good burn in... and the Ref 10 is wonderful; just not the most bang for the buck.


----------



## joyck888

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> I started by getting rid of the switched PSU in the MC3+USB. It was clean and a bit artificial sounding on its own 1GHz XO. With the Oscilloquartz as EXT XO it was much better...but after replacing the switched PSU with an Ultra Silent LPS (5V 3A) the MC3+USB climbed up to a higher league.  After that it was equally good as the DI. They both are winners now. The DI has HDMI output supporting "all formats" PCM+ DSD. It also has the S/P DIF coax that supports DoP besides the PCM. The MC3+USB reclocks streams from S/P DIF, TOSLINK, and AES/EBU. and converts DSD material. It has limitation on 192 kHz for PCM. It can handle DSD (WIndows) and DoP (Linux) and converts it to a first class PCM stream.
> I have no idea of how good the "standard" REF10 is. I decided to "kill" this OCXO hunt by a real high end, refined unit.
> I understand why Mutec uses the switched PSU....but it is degrading the units potential. My REF10 SE-120 has 25 hours powered on now and both the DI20HE and the MC3+USB are answering well on the new Master clock. It is still very early in the maturing process but it is possible to get glimts of what this will give when its settled in a few weeks.
> ...


How do I setup MC3?      PC USB to MC3 and MC3 AES to DAC?  does that work?   It seems like it does not carry an audio signal.


----------



## joyck888

joyck888 said:


> How do I setup MC3?      PC USB to MC3 and MC3 AES to DAC?  does that work?   It seems like it does not carry an audio signal.


do I need the  DI20 in the chain?  I hooked up currently hooked up mc3 AES output to DAC but getting nothing out.


----------



## JaMo

joyck888 said:


> do I need the  DI20 in the chain?  I hooked up currently hooked up mc3 AES output to DAC but getting nothing out.


OT but here we go....
The Mutec MC3+USB is a DDC and a reclocking device. It has two inputs (USB XMOS, and S/PDIF). USB drivers for PC is easy downloaded from Mutec's homepage. AES/EBU outputs up to 192k. DSD and DoP (DSD64, DSD128) is converted to PCM up to 176.4k 
Do You get sound on any other output?

The DI20/HE is not needed to get the MC3+USB sound. The DI however is a more full function unit that supports more resolutions and it outputs I2S over HDMI.
/Jan


----------



## joyck888

JaMo said:


> OT but here we go....
> The Mutec MC3+USB is a DDC and a reclocking device. It has two inputs (USB XMOS, and S/PDIF). USB drivers for PC is easy downloaded from Mutec's homepage. AES/EBU outputs up to 192k. DSD and DoP (DSD64, DSD128) is converted to PCM up to 176.4k
> Do You get sound on any other output?
> 
> ...


From MC3, AES out to DAC.  I am not getting any sound out.  However from DI AES out, i am getting sounds.


----------



## JaMo

How do You feed the MC3? USB from PC? S/PDIF (coax)? There are a number of settings of what the MC3+USB should do. It can do a lot of things. Are You sure You have the correct input set?


----------



## joyck888

JaMo said:


> How do You feed the MC3? USB from PC? S/PDIF (coax)? There are a number of settings of what the MC3+USB should do. It can do a lot of things. Are You sure You have the correct input set?


Hi, Been playing about with it.  Feeding USB to MC3 +,   At this setting finally getting something.  Under clock multiplier, what is the best setting for this?


----------



## JaMo

That is how good it gets, reclocking on internal clock.The time multiply setting is for word clock outs.
Now, enough of OT in this DI thread.


----------



## nazhmd

Not to get off topic, just wondering where does a Matrix SPDIF 2 fit in comparison with an SU 1, SU 2, SU 6, U16 and the DI20 HE.


----------



## Bech (May 23, 2020)

The USB/SPDIF mentioned below is a Matrix 2 with an Uptone ISO regen and external LPSU (which in all are more expensive than the DI20!).
The Gustard U16 with external clock was better than this combination.
I have bought a DI20 which is even better.
My friend (who also are active in this thread) borrowed the Matrix (without ISO Regen and LPSU) and the DI20 and bought a DI20 the day after. 
I have tried the DI20 with and without my ExactPower Powerconditioner and can hear clear difference to the better with the EP.
I borrowed the external clock and as many have said this is even better .
So: I will try this clock out as masterclock when version 3 arrives within a few weeks - mounted with PSU  in a small box.
https://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=36&hv=1



Bech said:


> I used to have my music stored on the internal SSD harddisk in my iMac (with good fancontrol) using Audirvana or Roon as player and an USB/SPDIFF converter between the iMac and my dCS Upsampler and DAC.
> I was quite satisfied with this solution – but shifting to a Innous ZEN MK 3 was a quite significant improvement. Recommendable from my point of wiew!! Even though I only played music stored on the ZEN I was quite surprised that bettering the LAN connection (LAN cable + LPS to the wifi-reciever) was necessary before i came in Zen  with my new investment!
> 
> The USB output port from the Innous is probably good – but not better than Innuos have launched a Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker!  And the important thing is also: how good is the USB-port on your DAC!
> ...


----------



## smodtactical

Damn its such a tough decision. D300 Ref or U1 Mini or Pi4b -> DI20HE + MV89 + LPS.


----------



## FredA (May 24, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Damn its such a tough decision. D300 Ref or U1 Mini or Pi4b -> DI20HE + MV89 + LPS.


It seems to me you would need the d300ref to match the sound quality of the di20he setup. I have

5v lps + usbridge signature - > di20he + lps + mv89a

The sound is the best i have heard. You will need a superb setup to hear how good this transport solution is.


----------



## rsbrsvp (May 24, 2020)

If you are using a DI-20HE and a R7HE both with Mutec Ref10 SE-120 clocking- would a dedicated transport really make much of a difference;

especially in light of all the galvanic isolation between the DI20HE and the computer and that the DI-20HE does not need the power bus of the USB cable?

I have read several reviews of mac mini with Audivana being just as good or better than very fancy transports....


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> If you are using a DI-20HE and a R7HE both with Mutec Ref10 SE-120 clocking- would a dedicated transport really make much of a difference;
> 
> especially in light of all the galvanic isolation between the DI20HE and the computer and that the DI-20HE does not need the power bus of the USB cable?
> 
> I have read several reviews of mac mini with Audivana being just as good or better than very fancy transports....


Possible indeed. The di20 has very good isolation. I used to use an intona at the output of my headless computer. No need for it anymore.


----------



## smodtactical

FredA said:


> It seems to me you would need the d300ref to match the sound quality of the di20he setup. I have
> 
> 5v lps + usbridge signature - > di20he + lps + mv89a
> 
> The sound is the best i have heard. You will need a superb setup to hear how good this transport solution is.



Which LPS are you using? I was thinking of the Keces P8 to power my clock and Pi4b.. or maybe a cheaper $100 ebay one.

One advantage of going the DI20HE route is it gives you upgrade options in terms of better external clocks. But the advantage of the D300ref is its a 1 box streamer solution.. so in theory simpler.


----------



## smodtactical

Hey guys people in my discord were saying the 12 volts of the mv89 board from queen seems really high? The mutec is 2.3V. Can you comment please? Thanks!


----------



## Oraz

Greetings to all the members of this forum. I want to make an inquiry. I own an Auralic Aries G2 streamer transport  and I want to know if any of you know if this device works with GD DI 20  through the usb connection. Thank you very much for your attention !


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

Oraz said:


> Greetings to all the members of this forum. I want to make an inquiry. I own an Auralic Aries G2 streamer transport  and I want to know if any of you know if this device works with GD DI 20  through the usb connection. Thank you very much for your attention !


I own an Aries G1 since one year, and it drives DI-20HE perfectly without any issue. DI-20 will accept almost any signal in its input.


----------



## Oraz

Il Cuffiotto said:


> I own an Aries G1 since one year, and it drives DI-20HE perfectly without any issue. DI-20 will accept almost any signal in its input.


Thank a lot II Cuffiotto!


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Which LPS are you using? I was thinking of the Keces P8 to power my clock and Pi4b.. or maybe a cheaper $100 ebay one.
> 
> One advantage of going the DI20HE route is it gives you upgrade options in terms of better external clocks. But the advantage of the D300ref is its a 1 box streamer solution.. so in theory simpler.


I use this on the clock:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/25W-TALEMA-Ultra-Low-Noise-linear-power-supply-DC-12V-2A-upgrade-your-device/143331836888?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

And i have a similar but slighly bigger one (case-wise) for the usbridge,  which runs cooler but is basically the same. The 12v runs cool enough with the morion. The usbridge needs more current.


----------



## smodtactical

Il Cuffiotto said:


> I own an Aries G1 since one year, and it drives DI-20HE perfectly without any issue. DI-20 will accept almost any signal in its input.



Does the DI20 elevate your SQ above what the G1 does on its own? Isn't like reclocking twice?


----------



## smodtactical

Man I can't believe how huge the MV89 OCXO is!


----------



## Zachik

smodtactical said:


> Man I can't believe how huge the MV89 OCXO is!


I am wondering if there is a *reasonably priced* item that has the clock and the linear power supply, all in 1 case?
(I already have way too many components and cables...)


----------



## smodtactical

Zachik said:


> I am wondering if there is a *reasonably priced* item that has the clock and the linear power supply, all in 1 case?
> (I already have way too many components and cables...)



Its probably better to have them as separates for more isolation anyway.


----------



## smodtactical

What would happen if you connect this to DI20HE ? :O

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/l...k-generator-da-converters?refsource=hifishark


----------



## Zachik

smodtactical said:


> Its probably better to have them as separates for more isolation anyway.


I respectfully disagree. Having LPS and 10MHz clock as 2 separate components inside a single aluminum chassis is NOT going to degrade anything!


----------



## roni44

Hi yall, about to pull trigger on the DI-20, since I already have nice LPS and power cord, would I still need HE version or 90/98M should do the job. Furthermore, I have IFI micro iUSB3.0 between MacBook Pro and U16(sold), is iUSB3.0 still necessary with DI-20?


----------



## smodtactical

Zachik said:


> I respectfully disagree. Having LPS and 10MHz clock as 2 separate components inside a single aluminum chassis is NOT going to degrade anything!



For example lumin u1 mini with built in PSU that is enclosed in a box versus lumin u1 which has a totally separate psu chassis. Why would they do that if it makes no difference? Is it just aesthetics?


----------



## Zachik

smodtactical said:


> For example lumin u1 mini with built in PSU that is enclosed in a box versus lumin u1 which has a totally separate psu chassis. Why would they do that if it makes no difference? Is it just aesthetics?


Well... first, it is debatable whether or not with some super-high-end amps and source components putting the PSU in separate chassis really matters or not.
Second, IF indeed for certain components there might be a small improvement of sound quality by separating PSU - you cannot automatically deduce it is the case for all components!  
You can easily get me to agree that LPS and the clock *on same PCB* might not be ideal. However, having 2 separate PCBs (one for LPS and other for the clock) inside 1 chassis for aesthetics and convenience would not compromise on the sound quality


----------



## smodtactical

Zachik said:


> Well... first, it is debatable whether or not with some super-high-end amps and source components putting the PSU in separate chassis really matters or not.
> Second, IF indeed for certain components there might be a small improvement of sound quality by separating PSU - you cannot automatically deduce it is the case for all components!
> You can easily get me to agree that LPS and the clock *on same PCB* might not be ideal. However, having 2 separate PCBs (one for LPS and other for the clock) inside 1 chassis for aesthetics and convenience would not compromise on the sound quality



So for lumin u1, naim 555, total dac etc.. it does make a difference or no?


----------



## Zachik

smodtactical said:


> So for lumin u1, naim 555, total dac etc.. it does make a difference or no?


I seriously doubt I personally would hear the difference.
I am sure others would claim they do.
Welcome to audiophile-land


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

smodtactical said:


> Does the DI20 elevate your SQ above what the G1 does on its own? Isn't like reclocking twice?


DI-20HE doesn't reclock. It's purpose is to rebuild the digital signal entering in the dac. It does practically what dacs do at their in, just a lot better. And yes, it elevates significantly the SQ of the system.


----------



## smodtactical

Il Cuffiotto said:


> DI-20HE doesn't reclock. It's purpose is to rebuild the digital signal entering in the dac. It does practically what dacs do at their in, just a lot better. And yes, it elevates significantly the SQ of the system.



Its interesting, Alvin at denafrips said he was going to try to do AES out of the d300ref into the gaia AES input. But when I mentioned this to another audiophile i know he said it didn't make sense since you are reclocking twice.

I think the fact that the DI20HE elevates the sound above the G1 is quite amazing as you would think the sound out of the G1 is already extremely good and wouldn't benefit from the rebuilding.


----------



## smodtactical

rsbrsvp said:


> I received my double oven OXCO (Morion MV89a) clock today.  It was custom built for me by "queens land"; a seller on ebay.  He used the 2009 OXCO which he said has the best specs.  He also made sure it had three Sine Wave 50ohm outputs.   One for the DI-20HE; one for the R-7HE and one if I ever want to use my SOTM tx-usbultra with an external clock.  Cost was $350.
> 
> Additionally, he built a beautiful casing around it for an extra $15;- it looks so professional.
> 
> ...



I wonder what gains would be present if we just used his clock on the DI20HE alone as I have a terminator with no 10 mhz clock input. You are lucky to have the R7HE. Did you try connecting the clock to just the di20he? If not could you try it and tell me what you think ?


----------



## smodtactical

Guys what do you think of these cybershaft OCXO clocks? It has lower jitter than a $23k esoteric clock and it only costs $1000.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/reasonably-priced-dual-master-clock-10mhz-rb-and-ocxo.20827/

Again probably I am wasting my cash as I will only connect a DI20HE to it if I order it.


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Guys what do you think of these cybershaft OCXO clocks? It has lower jitter than a $23k esoteric clock and it only costs $1000.
> 
> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/reasonably-priced-dual-master-clock-10mhz-rb-and-ocxo.20827/
> 
> Again probably I am wasting my cash as I will only connect a DI20HE to it if I order it.


The cybershafts are good clocks. Only connecting the di20he provides a clear benefit with a r7 dac. Likely so with all relocking dacs. 

The point IMO is reclocking has little incidence on low frequency jitter in general (can hardly be removed, basically stays as is)  and the internal clock of the dacs have good figures otherwise. So having the di outputting a signal with very low low-freq jitter will bring a significant improvement with low bass response. But it is not only that,.for some reason, resolution and imaging improve as well. I am not sure the cybershaft in this price range is better than the Morion mv89a. Connecting the dac also brings even more of an improvement accoring to all headfiers thst have tried with an audio-gd r7.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

smodtactical said:


> Its interesting, Alvin at denafrips said he was going to try to do AES out of the d300ref into the gaia AES input. But when I mentioned this to another audiophile i know he said it didn't make sense since you are reclocking twice.
> 
> I think the fact that the DI20HE elevates the sound above the G1 is quite amazing as you would think the sound out of the G1 is already extremely good and wouldn't benefit from the rebuilding.


I believe it's a matter of understanding the stream logic: G1 or G2 output a good signal, this is basical. After that, dac normally process the signal to prepare it for conversion, then convert it. DI-20 doesn't change the streamer signal, it just does better what dac normally does inside BEFORE conversion: transforming protocol in I2S. This is a critical process quite standard, usually done inside the dac, that DI-20 does better. So the matter is not "upgrading G2 output".


----------



## jimmychan

I have two DI20HE that I have tried in series. It proved it has positive impact by rebuilding twice.


----------



## FredA

jimmychan said:


> I have two DI20HE that I have tried in series. It proved it has positive impact by rebuilding twice.


A bit surprised. Did you use the external clock on both? Usb input on the first one?


----------



## smodtactical

jimmychan said:


> I have two DI20HE that I have tried in series. It proved it has positive impact by rebuilding twice.



Wow thats crazy.


----------



## jimmychan

FredA said:


> A bit surprised. Did you use the external clock on both? Usb input on the first one?



No ext. clock on my test. USB in and i2s out.


----------



## Wynnytsky

jimmychan said:


> I have two DI20HE that I have tried in series. It proved it has positive impact by rebuilding twice.



I have two speakers in parallel.  Lot's of impact, and volume.

@smodtactical
FYI I recently got the Keces P8 (9/12 + 18/19) and my favorite sound is the P8 sending 9v to a w4s recovery and hdplex 200watt sending 19.5 to my computer.  Sounds more effortless than either LPS doing both.


----------



## rsbrsvp

My Ref 10 se-120 really opened up in the last few days.  Serious improvement.  I was not expecting this........

The detail retrieval is STUNNING.......


----------



## smodtactical (May 26, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> I have two speakers in parallel.  Lot's of impact, and volume.
> 
> @smodtactical
> FYI I recently got the Keces P8 (9/12 + 18/19) and my favorite sound is the P8 sending 9v to a w4s recovery and hdplex 200watt sending 19.5 to my computer.  Sounds more effortless than either LPS doing both.



If I go the pi chain route with di20 he i was thinking of using a p8 to power my pi streamer and mv89 clock. Alternatively if I got lumin u1 mini route will use it to power the lumin alone.

Btw you are powering your PC with an hdplex? Its a custom desktop?


----------



## Wynnytsky

smodtactical said:


> Btw you are powering your PC with an hdplex? Its a custom desktop?



yeah it's a custom build on an STX mobo with a 35watt quad core i5.  I've since done a couple builds on the 65watt AMD 3400G.  I love that CPU -- I can't wait for the 4000 series to come out this year.  I loaned my friend the HDplex yesterday so I'm only using the P8 right now, and it's good, but I may add the snap-on ferrite cores to the DC cables to bring the highs down a tad.  It says I'm drawing 500ma for the computer and 100ma for the w4s recovery, and the unit is rated to handle 4000ma on each of those taps.  I'm probably going overboard with the headroom.


----------



## smodtactical

Wynnytsky said:


> yeah it's a custom build on an STX mobo with a 35watt quad core i5.  I've since done a couple builds on the 65watt AMD 3400G.  I love that CPU -- I can't wait for the 4000 series to come out this year.  I loaned my friend the HDplex yesterday so I'm only using the P8 right now, and it's good, but I may add the snap-on ferrite cores to the DC cables to bring the highs down a tad.  It says I'm drawing 500ma for the computer and 100ma for the w4s recovery, and the unit is rated to handle 4000ma on each of those taps.  I'm probably going overboard with the headroom.


 
I am considering it myself. That or sbooster for lumin u1 mini or pi4b.  1 reviewer said sbooster better and another said p8 far superior. Heh.


----------



## smodtactical

Ok after weeks of agonizing over the decision I finally ordered the DI20HE. Fingers crossed it will all workout smoothly and sound good in my system. I am going to start with doing PC over ethernet -> Pi4B -> DI20HE. Going to look for a good linear PSU for my pi4b as well.


----------



## jimmychan (May 27, 2020)

No need for expensive LPS, a decent one would do. The one I am using costed about US$100.


----------



## Wynnytsky

smodtactical said:


> Going to look for a good linear PSU for my pi4b as well.



I thought pies were powered over ethernet.  I see there's a mini usb input that can draw 2amps of 5v.  Is that known to sound better?


----------



## Jandu

smodtactical said:


> Ok after weeks of agonizing over the decision I finally ordered the DI20HE. Fingers crossed it will all workout smoothly and sound good in my system. I am going to start with doing PC over ethernet -> Pi4B -> DI20HE. Going to look for a good linear PSU for my pi4b as well.



You don't need the PC anymore. Your Pi4b may access your PC/NAS over Ethernet/wifi, or if you use a good size SD card, you can have a sizable library right on your SD card. Limit is the size of your SD card or NAS. Or if you use USB storage, that can hold most music library.


----------



## joyck888

smodtactical said:


> Guys what do you think of these cybershaft OCXO clocks? It has lower jitter than a $23k esoteric clock and it only costs $1000.
> 
> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/reasonably-priced-dual-master-clock-10mhz-rb-and-ocxo.20827/
> 
> Again probably I am wasting my cash as I will only connect a DI20HE to it if I order it.


this looks really attractive .. mutec ref 10 performance only around  3K price.    Anyone have used it before?


----------



## smodtactical

Jandu said:


> You don't need the PC anymore. Your Pi4b may access your PC/NAS over Ethernet/wifi, or if you use a good size SD card, you can have a sizable library right on your SD card. Limit is the size of your SD card or NAS. Or if you use USB storage, that can hold most music library.



Ya definitely good point. I am already using my pi as an Ethernet streaming device. I could get a NAS and then pc would not be in the equation at all.


----------



## smodtactical

jimmychan said:


> No need for expensive LPS, a decent one would do. The one I am using costed about US$100.



Which LPS are you using? I saw a teradak on ebay.


----------



## smodtactical

Wynnytsky said:


> I thought pies were powered over ethernet.  I see there's a mini usb input that can draw 2amps of 5v.  Is that known to sound better?



 Its over usb C. Need a dc to usb C cable.


----------



## Jandu (May 27, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Its over usb C. Need a dc to usb C cable.



Choices:
Allo Shanti, comes with USB c. Designed for RPi.
https://allo.com/sparky/shanti.html
RPi battery, USB c cable. Good for 6 to 8 hrs. $ value is great. No power cord.
https://www.buyapi.ca/product/compact-rechargeable-battery-for-raspberry-pi/
ZeroZone R core - needs adapter to USB c. Expensive, but really good. If you doing HE route, maybe worth it. It has a model which can provide 2 DC connections which can power both your RPi 5v & OCXO 12v.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...zero+zone+r+core+linear+power+supply&_sacat=0


----------



## soundlogic

Oraz said:


> Greetings to all the members of this forum. I want to make an inquiry. I own an Auralic Aries G2 streamer transport  and I want to know if any of you know if this device works with GD DI 20  through the usb connection. Thank you very much for your attention !


I am using a Aries G2 and the AGD DI20 SE, I2s out to PS Audio Directstream DAC...Sounds wonderful!


----------



## Oraz

soundlogic said:


> I am using a Aries G2 and the AGD DI20 SE, I2s out to PS Audio Directstream DAC...Sounds wonderful!


Thanks soundlogic. Then I will go for the DI20


----------



## smodtactical

soundlogic said:


> I am using a Aries G2 and the AGD DI20 SE, I2s out to PS Audio Directstream DAC...Sounds wonderful!



Sound did you compare G2 alone (aes out maybe) vs G2 + DI20HE? Thoughts?


----------



## Sage Encore

smodtactical said:


> Guys what do you think of these cybershaft OCXO clocks? It has lower jitter than a $23k esoteric clock and it only costs $1000.
> 
> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/reasonably-priced-dual-master-clock-10mhz-rb-and-ocxo.20827/
> 
> Again probably I am wasting my cash as I will only connect a DI20HE to it if I order it.


Cybershaft now have a newer model. They are said to be very good though I have never heard them in action though. Why don't you get a Mutec instead? You can re-clock more of your digital front which I'm sure will reap better results. I'm using sotm master clock to reclock my sotm gears. Happy listening.


----------



## Wynnytsky

smodtactical said:


> Its over usb C. Need a dc to usb C cable.


is the USB C required for operation, or can it draw all it's power from ethernet?

BTW
I had the TeraDak DC-30W-TOUCH DC5V 3A to power a Singxer SU1 and that didn't fare well against the HDPlex and Keces.  I thought it was odd that when I would power that LPS on/off the voltage would climb/fall slowly like a variac.  I wasn't sure if that was normal so I decided to only operated the power switch while it was disconnected from stuff.


----------



## smodtactical

Wynnytsky said:


> is the USB C required for operation, or can it draw all it's power from ethernet?
> 
> BTW
> I had the TeraDak DC-30W-TOUCH DC5V 3A to power a Singxer SU1 and that didn't fare well against the HDPlex and Keces.  I thought it was odd that when I would power that LPS on/off the voltage would climb/fall slowly like a variac.  I wasn't sure if that was normal so I decided to only operated the power switch while it was disconnected from stuff.



Have you or anyone used any good ebay power supply? Like the one from queensland?


----------



## Oepsie

Got my DI-20 replacement unit today! Already sounding better than the first as the leanness is not there! Sound is very balanced with lots of bass impact. Burn-in will progress over the next weeks


----------



## Zachik

Oepsie said:


> Got my DI-20 replacement unit today! Already sounding better than the first as the leanness is not there!


So, how did you know or suspect your initial unit was bad? Just because it sounded lean??
I am asking, because when I finally get one - if I do not like the sound, how do I know whether it is just not to my preference / taste, or maybe it is broken / bad?!


----------



## Jandu

Zachik said:


> So, how did you know or suspect your initial unit was bad? Just because it sounded lean??
> I am asking, because when I finally get one - if I do not like the sound, how do I know whether it is just not to my preference / taste, or maybe it is broken / bad?!



Interesting, I think most units during the early days before the 2nd firmware update, sounded bad. Until at least after 300 hrs of burn in before the sound improves. Mine needs over 1000 hrs before it fully developed. You may be lucky that you received a fully burn in unit,  or the firmware update may have changed it.


----------



## smodtactical

Hey guys so I posted on audiophilestyle asking about using a DDC after a lumin streamer (since I was thinking of doing lumin u1 mini -> DI20HE). The developer at lumin says he doesn't recommend amanero based DDC but only XMOS.  So thus not recommending DI20. Thoughts?


----------



## Oepsie (May 30, 2020)

Zachik said:


> So, how did you know or suspect your initial unit was bad? Just because it sounded lean??
> I am asking, because when I finally get one - if I do not like the sound, how do I know whether it is just not to my preference / taste, or maybe it is broken / bad?!


A good friend of mine bought the exact same model and I auditioned his after approximately 10 days of burn in. I bought my ‘copy’ the same night as it sounded absolutely amazing!  I got mine 7 days after so that meant that we could compare. Out of the box, my unit spunded ‘off’; very lean and bright. Very different from my friends unit. Updated firmware, both back to 3.32 (mine came with 3.6) and then to 3.9. The lean character was there in both cases, so not related to firmware. After 4 weeks of burn-in, mine was still lean sounding, nowhere near the awesome fullness and detail that my friends unit had in the midrange. So the amazing dealer in Holland agreed to switch.

We also tried with an external clock, thinking that if the leanness was related to the burn-in of the clock, it would go away with an external clock. It didn’t  So back it went.


----------



## smodtactical

Zachik said:


> So, how did you know or suspect your initial unit was bad? Just because it sounded lean??
> I am asking, because when I finally get one - if I do not like the sound, how do I know whether it is just not to my preference / taste, or maybe it is broken / bad?!



Ya I am wondering the same. Sounds concerning because how do you know if the unit is defective or not?


----------



## smodtactical

Ya the problem is most people who buy this won't be  able to compare it to another unit. This does worry me a bit.


----------



## Oepsie (May 30, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Ya I am wondering the same. Sounds concerning because how do you know if the unit is defective or not?


See reply above 

Granted, with two units, it might have been my friends unit that was off  But nowhere in this thread have I read about a lean character in the midrange. And as mentioned, the dealer believed the same and exchanged the unit.

Kingwa was also consulted in the process and eventually also agreed with the switch.

I don’t believe there is reason to worry, though


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jandu said:


> Interesting, I think most units during the early days before the 2nd firmware update, sounded bad. Until at least after 300 hrs of burn in before the sound improves. Mine needs over 1000 hrs before it fully developed. You may be lucky that you received a fully burn in unit,  or the firmware update may have changed it.


I think I got my di20he in late December and it never disappointed.  I think my r2r7 varied more during brake in.


This morning I my friend's EMM DAC2x v2 arrived for an audition.
I've got the di20he runs a short belden AES into the dac2x and a short belden I2S into the r2r7.
When a/b switching balanced inputs on my preamp you hear no difference in gain.
The biggest difference is that the left/right channels on the r2r7 overlap more to create a much stronger center, which I can see being a plus for many.
The dac2x has no overlap, so no pronounced mid, but a wider stage.

Listening to ...
     Ars Nova - [1956] Stravinsky - L'Histoire du soldat by Robert Mandell (HDTT).FLAC24352
... I could hear a bit of tape hiss from the dac2x.  The r2r7 wasn't able to expose the origin of this recording.
In a blind test if I were asked which sound was i2s and which was aes I would have been confident, and wrong.

Well, with home court advantage (i2s and audio tekne litz internconnect) I'd say the gen1 r2r7 can hang with something 6x the price!
In the evening I'll try out it's USB input.


----------



## smodtactical

Great pictures!


----------



## Zachik

Wynnytsky said:


> I think I got my di20he in late December and it never disappointed.  I think my r2r7 varied more during brake in.
> 
> 
> This morning I my friend's EMM DAC2x v2 arrived for an audition.
> ...


I love your really cool shelves for the audio components!!!  
Personally, I do not have the physical space, and everything is in a rack of shelves. Very functional, but your setup is definitely nicer


----------



## Wynnytsky

Zachik said:


> I love your really cool shelves for the audio components!!!


Mapleshade just stepped up their quality and packing so they aren't the deal they once were.  I needed to add the double wide shelf to put visiting gear so that I wouldn't have to disturb the r2r7.  With a 5th leg and some brass hardware it was $900.

My friend just texted me that the Lampi Amber3's price just jumped from 2800 to 3500!  The conspiracy side of my brain (the whole thing) has me thinking the covid bailout is devaluing our currency.  And I was figuring deals would only get better as people burned through their savings.


----------



## Jackula

Got the Morion from queens land about a week ago, it made a marginal improvement on my DI-20HE that I can hear side-by-side, but since the setting isn't saved between restarts on the DI, I sometimes forget to set it back to external clock and I don't really notice.

But it made a huge improvement on my R7HE, details and layering is out of this world and I can't go back to what it was before. 

---

I also purchased the Blue Jeans cable that's highly recommended on this forum. I bought two lengths, a 2ft so I can compare directly to my WireWorld Chroma7 which is the best cable to date I heard with both the R7HE and Terminator v2. and also the shortest 1ft/0.3m which would have the least transmission error possible.

Between the 2ft Chroma 7 and Blue Jean, the Chroma 7 was the clear winner. Both cables had zero harshness but the WireWorld cables had more detail. I didn't listen for long as I wanted to try the 0.3m Blue Jean.

The 0.3m it had better soundstage and imaging, as expected with the shorter cable. But it also has the obvious lack of details. After 3 days of listening with it I switched back to the Chroma 7, despite it being an inferior soundstage @ 2ft, the loss of details on the Blue Jeans was not funny. I also started to notice a treble glare on the Blue Jean that isn't present on the Chroma 7.

So I was searching for two weeks for a 0.3m Chroma 7 cable but it was out of stock everywhere except from WireWorld direct, as my aunt lives in NY I placed an order under her name and she'll redirect it to me. Then I received an email from WireWorld the next day saying the 0.3m length has been discontinued and they'll be upgrading me to an Ultraviolet 7 instead. Top customer service I just say, and I just hope it's even better than the Chroma 7.

Sorry for grammar as I typed this on my phone and cbf.


----------



## Zachik

Jackula said:


> Got the Morion from queens land about a week ago, it made a marginal improvement on my DI-20HE that I can hear side-by-side, but since the setting isn't saved between restarts on the DI, I sometimes forget to set it back to external clock and I don't really notice.


Thanks for that info - makes me seriously rethink external clocks! (knowing others here would probably jump in and claim they hear a huge difference... )



Jackula said:


> Between the 2ft Chroma 7 and Blue Jean, the Chroma 7 was the clear winner. Both cables had zero harshness but the WireWorld cables had more detail. I didn't listen for long as I wanted to try the 0.3m Blue Jean.


Great info. I am a fan of both brands, but for HDMI - I will probably opt for the WireWorld cables! Unlike you, I will probably need 1.5m or so (depending on placement of DI-20HE when I finally pull the trigger on that one...) 



Jackula said:


> they'll be upgrading me to an Ultraviolet 7


Please report back with comparison to the Chroma 7.


----------



## smodtactical

Jackula said:


> Got the Morion from queens land about a week ago, it made a marginal improvement on my DI-20HE that I can hear side-by-side, but since the setting isn't saved between restarts on the DI, I sometimes forget to set it back to external clock and I don't really notice.
> 
> But it made a huge improvement on my R7HE, details and layering is out of this world and I can't go back to what it was before.
> 
> ...



From what I heard HDMI 2.1 spec cables are in general superior to 2.0 spec due to better shielding?

I considered the wireworld cables but the yellow colour of the chroma kinda puts me off of them. I just ordered a well reviewed 2.1 cable off amazon and going to try it out.  In my terminator v2. Don't have the di20he yet though.


----------



## smodtactical

jimmychan said:


> No ext. clock on my test. USB in and i2s out.



Did you use coax out of the first di20 into the second di20 ?


----------



## Jackula

Zachik said:


> Thanks for that info - makes me seriously rethink external clocks! (knowing others here would probably jump in and claim they hear a huge difference... )



Or maybe they've just got better hearing than me  



Zachik said:


> Great info. I am a fan of both brands, but for HDMI - I will probably opt for the WireWorld cables! Unlike you, I will probably need 1.5m or so (depending on placement of DI-20HE when I finally pull the trigger on that one...)



I2S really wasn't designed to be carried over longer distances than 0.5m to 1m. Have a play around but you might find SPDIF the better output at 1.5m.

@smodtactical I don't really care about cable colours, I have yellow cables, black cables, blue cables, purple cables behind my gear. I'll use anything as long as the sound is good.


----------



## smodtactical

Do you think 0.5 m is a clear advantage over 1 meter for i2s ?


----------



## Zachik

Jackula said:


> Or maybe they've just got better hearing than me


My hearing is not perfect, so you're in good company 



Jackula said:


> I2S really wasn't designed to be carried over longer distances than 0.5m to 1m. Have a play around but you might find SPDIF the better output at 1.5m.


Good point! Will use SPDIF or AES/EBU.


----------



## Jackula (May 31, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Do you think 0.5 m is a clear advantage over 1 meter for i2s ?



Sure, if they are of the same brand and make.

HDMI 2.1 isn't guaranteed to be better than HDMI 2.0 either. My Moshou 8K 2.1 @ 0.5m is probably my worst cable, outclassed even by my VDH Flat HEAC 1.4 @ 1m.


----------



## Oepsie

Regarding the effect of external clocks, my friend and I tried it in two setups and there was a big difference between the effects. On my system (with an ecd-1 dac from electrocompaniet), the difference was big; much more natural sound of instruments and voices. In my friend’s system (with a much more expensive dcs dac), the effect of the external clock was much smaller. So the effect might be affected by the dac and its ability to handle/reclock the signal?


----------



## Wynnytsky (May 31, 2020)

@smodtactical @rsbrsvp
you guys both got the full package from queens-land (no soldering)?
and I assume you run multiple outputs in parallel to both the di20 and r7?
is there advantage/detriment to plugging in series using the di20's CLK OUT jack?

I'm asking because this has two squares and one sine ...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-HIFI-DIY...0MHz-Sine-Wave-Square-Wave-MV89A/333541364404
I have no idea which one is better, but I suppose if I like the sine (and I owned di20+r7) then I can send sine to both in series.

edit:
oh, and is 3.3Vpp inviting trouble? (ie: is 3Vpp a hard limit)


----------



## smodtactical

I didn't order ext clock yet. Someone mentioned using it alone on di20he doesn't change that much so I will wait. I instead ordered lumin u1 mini and will power it with keces p8. Then I will do coax out to di20he and finally either AES or I2s into terminator v2. Will try all different combinations and report back on results.


----------



## ToddRaymond

Sometimes I wonder if getting a 0.6 m Silver Starlight (silver-clad OFC conductors) would have been just as good if not better for I2S than the 1.0 metre Platinum Starlight (solid silver) that I ended up getting.

On a side note, I see Wireworld has a new new circular Silver Sphere cable.  Wonder if they're moving away from their flat series.


----------



## Jackula

ToddRaymond said:


> Sometimes I wonder if getting a 0.6 m Silver Starlight (silver-clad OFC conductors) would have been just as good if not better for I2S than the 1.0 metre Platinum Starlight (solid silver) that I ended up getting.
> 
> On a side note, I see Wireworld has a new new circular Silver Sphere cable.  Wonder if they're moving away from their flat series.



Lengths aside, I always prefer single metal over composites (either solid ofc or solid silver over silver plated ofc). I think the major advantage of platinum is the carbon fibre plugs. Something you could try is a Chroma and wrap the plugs in carbon fibre vinyl you can readily find on eBay.

As a side note I don't know why manufacturers only do carbon fibre at the plugs, when I was making my owner power cables, running carbon fibre down the length of the cable was way more effective than carbon on the plugs only.


----------



## smodtactical

Damn kinda jealous of the Sage's Denafrips Gaia. I wish we could see a DI20HE vs Gaia faceoff. 

I noticed he thought it sounded amazing pre-burn in. I don't think anyone said DI20HE sounded good cold? Damn.


----------



## smodtactical

Damn it I screwed up. I ordered wireworld ultraviolet 7 bnc cable to go from u1 mini to di20he but then just realized di20he doesn't have bnc input. ARGH.

Should I order an adapter or just buy an RCA cable now?


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jun 2, 2020)

I own the Chroma 7, the Belden fe, and the wire world platinum starlight.

All are excellent.  The chroma 7 has the most transparency, the perhaps the most detailed quantitatively, and the smoothest sounding as well but  is also the thinnest sounding.  The platinum has the most tonal colour by far and the detail is crisper by a a-lot but perhaps very slightly less detail quantity than the chroma IMHO.  The Belden is in the middle.

Technically speaking the Chroma may be considered the best to some- but I feel I need the full tonal colour of the platinum and I love the crispness of the detail retrieval over the smoother chroma 7.  I have usually preferred silver in all my cables over copper because of the brighter and fuller tonality even though well made copper often has very slightly superior detail retrieval.

The platinum is the poorest performer for the money by far but IMHO it is clearly the most satisfying sonically not considering price.


----------



## Jackula (Jun 2, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> The Belden is in the middle.



The reason the Belden is fuller sounding is due to the fact it's far smoother than the Chroma 7 that it allows details to blur which adds to the body, it is far from being crisp.

The Chroma 7 is thinner than the Belden, never listened to the platinum, and thicker than the Moshou. I guess it depends on synergy, on my system it is actually well balanced.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Jackula said:


> The reason the Belden is fuller sounding is due to the fact it's far smoother than the Chroma 7 that it allows details to blur which adds to the body, it is far from being crisp.
> 
> The Chroma 7 is thinner than the Belden, never listened to the platinum, and thicker than the Moshou. I guess it depends on synergy, on my system it is actually well balanced.




Once I heard the platinum I could not go back to any other HDMI cable I have- I am hooked on the tonality.  Too bad it costs so much.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jun 2, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> @smodtactical @rsbrsvp
> you guys both got the full package from queens-land (no soldering)?
> and I assume you run multiple outputs in parallel to both the di20 and r7?
> is there advantage/detriment to plugging in series using the di20's CLK OUT jack?
> ...




I run outs to Di-20HE a d R-7HE.  I have three sine wave outs and use two of them.  I do not have square wave out.

I have no trouble with the 3.3vpp AT ALL.   The seller explained that the average output is really lower than that.  It is some complex scientific calculation I do not understand.

Regarding the CLK out on the DI20HE- I have never used it and do not understand what it is for.


----------



## Thenewguy007

smodtactical said:


> Damn it I screwed up. I ordered wireworld ultraviolet 7 bnc cable to go from u1 mini to di20he but then just realized di20he doesn't have bnc input. ARGH.
> 
> Should I order an adapter or just buy an RCA cable now?



Just get a RCA to BNC adapter
https://www.ebay.com/c/132081057
Hook it up to one end of the cable & use it as a coax cable.


----------



## Jackula

rsbrsvp said:


> Once I heard the platinum I could not go back to any other HDMI cable I have- I am hooked on the tonality.  Too bad it costs so much.



I looked up WireWorld's website, it seems they no longer make 0.3m of the Platinum Starlight. I guess it rules out ever buying one for myself.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Jackula said:


> I looked up WireWorld's website, it seems they no longer make 0.3m of the Platinum Starlight. I guess it rules out ever buying one for myself.




I know.  1 meter was the shortest I could get and IMHO it is vastly superior to my .5 meter Chroma 7 and .3 meter Belden.  IMHO it is clear but everyone's ears are different.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Do headfiers leave their DI020HE and R-7HE ON 24/7 or just turn them on for part of the day?

I listen to music for around  2 hours a day and it does not seem to make sense to leave everything on 24/7.

To my ears- around an hour and a half warm up gets me to where I want.  What do others experience in terms of warm up time?


----------



## Jackula

rsbrsvp said:


> Do headfiers leave their DI020HE and R-7HE ON 24/7 or just turn them on for part of the day?
> 
> I listen to music for around  2 hours a day and it does not seem to make sense to leave everything on 24/7.
> 
> To my ears- around an hour and a half warm up gets me to where I want.  What do others experience in terms of warm up time?



I turn everything off now that I have an external clock, I used to keep them on 24/7 because I worried about the internal clocks degrading with each power cycle.

To me, everything sounded better after leaving them on for a few days, but good enough after about 2 hours. I haven't tested this since getting my Morion, and I'm not going to because 2 hours is good enough for me. 

I leave them on overnight if I am having a GTG though.


----------



## smodtactical

Thenewguy007 said:


> Just get a RCA to BNC adapter
> https://www.ebay.com/c/132081057
> Hook it up to one end of the cable & use it as a coax cable.



Worried the adapter may ruin the SQ ?


----------



## Thenewguy007

I think the only difference is the connector, the actual signal shouldn't be changed.
It's normal for BNC cables to be used as regular coax cables with adapters. The adapter itself if just the metal piece with no extra wires.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jackula said:


> I turn everything off now that I have an external clock


So the di20he get's turned off to?

I heard the r7he runs hot so I ordered a 2square + 1sine from queens-land with the hope that it would be a gateway drug into getting an r7he that I'd be free to turn off.


----------



## Jackula

Wynnytsky said:


> So the di20he get's turned off to?
> 
> I heard the r7he runs hot so I ordered a 2square + 1sine from queens-land with the hope that it would be a gateway drug into getting an r7he that I'd be free to turn off.



Yep, and being able to turn everything off overnight was my main reason too (at least that's what I told my wife).


----------



## Jandu

FredA said:


> Got the HE too. About delivery, there is a 15-day lead time on my quote, so i assume i am getting it in three weeks.



For FredA, or those of us who use the RPi for transport:

A prototype from Kingwa, however, according to what was released on the forum(chinese), it is unlikely going to make it to the market, due to the difficulties in supporting the SBC hard/software.


----------



## FredA

Jandu said:


> For FredA, or those of us who use the RPi for transport:
> 
> A prototype from Kingwa, however, according to what was released on the forum(chinese), it is unlikely going to make it to the market, due to the difficulties in supporting the SBC hard/software.


Also, regen power is most likely overkill for a pi. But perhaps not for a usbridge signature.

 Another rpi power solution, an affordable one, has been put together by one of Kingwa's friend. I will be happy to receive a unit to review if all goes as planned. It is meant also as a chassis for the RPi, with pi connectivity on the back plate.  It feature a 5v/2A class-a psu. I asked for the addition of a 5.5/2.1 to test with the usbridge sig.


----------



## Jandu

FredA said:


> Also, regen power is most likely overkill for a pi. But perhaps not for a usbridge signature.
> 
> Another rpi power solution, an affordable one, has been put together by one of Kingwa's friend. I will be happy to receive a unit to review if all goes as planned. It is meant also as a chassis for the RPi, with pi connectivity on the back plate.  It feature a 5v/2A class-a psu. I asked for the addition of a 5.5/2.1 to test with the usbridge sig.



Please let us know if/when it arrives.


----------



## jimmychan

I Would happy if DI20HE has a 5V out for external RPI connection. No need a standalone chassis for Rpi, for its low power consumption this is overkill.


----------



## FredA

jimmychan said:


> I Would happy if DI20HE has a 5V out for external RPI connection. No need a standalone chassis for Rpi, for its low power consumption this is overkill.


Good idea.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Good idea.


isn't it more about isolation than ultimate current headroom?  I've been told computers back feed noise into the DC supply.  As convenient as it is to have all those taps on the HDPlex, it seems to sound best when I don't power both the computer and other stuff.  Same thing with the Keces P8.  I was almost tempted to use a laptop brick on the computer.

I wonder if optical network transceivers operate quieter than gigabit ethernet ports.  If so, it would be cool if someone made an optical transceiver expansion board for an RPI.  Do I get a good-idea star for that one?


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> isn't it more about isolation than ultimate current headroom?  I've been told computers back feed noise into the DC supply.  As convenient as it is to have all those taps on the HDPlex, it seems to sound best when I don't power both the computer and other stuff.  Same thing with the Keces P8.  I was almost tempted to use a laptop brick on the computer.
> 
> I wonder if optical network transceivers operate quieter than gigabit ethernet ports.  If so, it would be cool if someone made an optical transceiver expansion board for an RPI.  Do I get a good-idea star for that one?


Isolation is important of course, and when you have a USB/reclocker, power quality is important  as well. Check the allo usbridge on allo.com, the whole I/0  board is custom, with tens of analog regulators.


----------



## Jandu

FredA said:


> Good idea.


I think the perfect set up would be an external clock (1 or 2 feeds)+ it's HE power supply with a spare 5v power outlet.


----------



## FredA

As long as whatever is connected on the 5v does not contaminate the clock. So the simplest thing is just to buy a dedicated psu for the pi. I have a 110usd unit that works just fine.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jun 7, 2020)

I have been using a 24awg silver litz ACSS IC I bought for around $100 from headphone lounge between my R7HE and HE-9 for a few months.

For around $150 I took a risk and got a pure silver conductor (not litz) ACSS 24awg IC from Robertson Cable in Australia not expecting much of a difference- but the difference is to my surprise more than I bargained for.   So so so much more detail and transparency and the soundstage is very noticeably wider.  I see from this experiment that silver core is clearly more revealing than litz IMHO....

I need time to adjust to the new resolution.  It may be too revealing for me............    I miss the small bit of heft I had before......    I'll see in around two weeks...


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I have been using a 24awg silver litz ACSS IC I bought for around $100 from headphone lounge between my R7HE and HE-9 for a few months.
> 
> For around $150 I took a risk and got a pure silver conductor (not litz) ACSS 24awg IC from Robertson Cable in Australia not expecting much of a difference- but the difference is to my surprise more than I bargained for.   So so so much more detail and transparency and the soundstage is very noticeably wider.  I see from this experiment that silver core is clearly more revealing than litz IMHO....
> 
> I need time to adjust to the new resolution.  It may be too revealing for me............    I miss the small bit of heft I had before......    I'll see in around two weeks...


Silver takes time.


----------



## joyck888

rsbrsvp said:


> My Ref 10 se-120 really opened up in the last few days.  Serious improvement.  I was not expecting this........
> 
> The detail retrieval is STUNNING.......


Had ref 10 se 120 for one day with x2 MC3 plus units in cascade, very noticeable difference from ref 10 improvement.  R8 Dac sounds just better than anything I heard so far.


----------



## smodtactical

Hey guys just got my di20he hooked up, I am doing  pc -> ethernet -> pi4b -> usb -> di20he -> aes -> terminator . Before I had sotm dx usb in place of the di20HE and it worked fine. Roon detects the amanero device and I enable it, I hit play the song plays but there is no sound output. Any idea whats wrong?


----------



## JaMo

smodtactical said:


> Hey guys just got my di20he hooked up, I am doing  pc -> ethernet -> pi4b -> usb -> di20he -> aes -> terminator . Before I had sotm dx usb in place of the di20HE and it worked fine. Roon detects the amanero device and I enable it, I hit play the song plays but there is no sound output. Any idea whats wrong?



Input 1 USB?


----------



## smodtactical

JaMo said:


> Input 1 USB?



Yes.

I tried PC -> ethernet -> pi4b -> usb -> DI20HE -> AES -> DAC
PC -> USB -> DI20HE -> AES -> DAC

Both Roon and foobar. None of them work. I installed the driver also.

In the first chain the file was playing on roon but no sound. In the second chain I get errors failed to initilize device from roon. And Foobar I tried wasapi amanero and 384 ASIO without wasapi. The file doesn't even play.

I think this unit may be broken?


----------



## smodtactical

Restarting the device now has given me output, listening through roon via pc -> usb -> di20he -> aes -> dac. But now every 10-15 seconds the output cuts out for 1 second then keeps playing.


----------



## smodtactical

I just restarted the unit again and no sound. Music is playing in roon but no sound. This is either out of my pc via direct usb or out of my pi streamer. Also tried a different usb cable and made no difference.


----------



## FredA (Jun 11, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Yes.
> 
> I tried PC -> ethernet -> pi4b -> usb -> DI20HE -> AES -> DAC
> PC -> USB -> DI20HE -> AES -> DAC
> ...


You may have pushed the red button in the back by accident. If so, you need to reflash the amanero fw.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> You may have pushed the red button in the back by accident. If so, you need to reflash the amanero fw.



So if I hit that button my unit will intermittently fail?  I must be the luckiest AGD customer because my DAC and DI have been flawless from day one.  Isn't this like a locking issue?

@smodtactical 
I would test DirectSound.  Hit WindowKey-R, and paste "C:\Windows\System32\mmsys.cpl"
Double click on your device and try testing diff sample rates





While you're in there disable this ...




For the heck of it you can try parallel and serial


----------



## FredA

The red button if held for 1-2s erases the amanero fw.


----------



## roni44

Just got mine DI20-90/98M yesterday. As soon as I opened up the package my heart dropped as the back panel indicate 220V and I needed 115V. Luckily quick call to May and solve the issue of opening the panel and flipped the switch. 2013 MacBook Pro>DI20>GPSDO 10mhz Clock>Micromega M100 with Wireworld USB & HDMI. Fired up and adjust the setting, then rebooted DI20 sound started to play. Unfortunately current speaker going to new owner this weekend without replacement so I'm force to listen to DI20 before the 300hrs burn in. Initial 10 mins volume was much lower had to crank up the Micromega, then slowly but surely the volume started to get louder. Right off the bat the details and bass was much noticeable better than U16 and/or ifi micro IUSB3.0 which was sold. Few hours into it, more micro details started display with sound stage widen a bit. However the sound is not as lively as it should and no depth. Fast forward 4~5 hours later after dinner and errand, the sound has opened up a bit more. Then voice started to get very airy and instruments was much more distinctive. Then I played around with YouTube and VLC to and no display of lipsync issue like U16. 

So far I'm really digging DI20 and agree to all it's one hella of DDC. BTW, a quick shout out to May, she promptly replied my issues and gave solution immediately.


----------



## smodtactical

Wynnytsky said:


> So if I hit that button my unit will intermittently fail?  I must be the luckiest AGD customer because my DAC and DI have been flawless from day one.  Isn't this like a locking issue?
> 
> @smodtactical
> I would test DirectSound.  Hit WindowKey-R, and paste "C:\Windows\System32\mmsys.cpl"
> ...



Tried serial and parallel that made no difference.

Ok so connecting direct pc -> usb -> di20HE -> AES -> Dac

I connected PC directly to di20HE and made it default device in windows 10.  Once I did that I started getting a static sound over headphones like noise. If I set foobar to DS mode with amanero driver music can play but the static sound stays there. If I set it to wasapi mode the static noise stays there when music is playing in the background. As the music plays every 20-30 seconds the sound cuts out for 1 second then keeps playing. I have also tried SPDIF out cable with same results. All my cables and dac worked completely perfectly with sotm dx usb instead of di20HE.


----------



## Wynnytsky

MAYBE you should spend more money on a good house cleaner and less on audio voodoo

If that's a jujube then I'd eat it


----------



## roni44

Wynnytsky said:


> MAYBE you should spend more money on a good house cleaner and less on audio voodoo
> 
> If that's a jujube then I'd eat it



Tinny piece of my son's Spiderman lego set, cheers.


----------



## smodtactical

I switched between asio, wasapi and directsound in foobar2000 as per kingwa's instructions. All of them have tons of static and the music pauses for 1 second every 20-30 sec, same problem no matter what.

When swapping the dx usb back in, it plays flawlessly.


----------



## jimmychan

Firstly, trouble shooting by elimination. 
Connect a SPDIF out to the SPDIF in of the DI20HE, select 2-coaxial in. Keep connecting AES out to your DAC.
This could verify the working order of the DI20HE. If this is working, then the problem lies on USB. 
You may need to reflash the USB again.


----------



## smodtactical

jimmychan said:


> Firstly, trouble shooting by elimination.
> Connect a SPDIF out to the SPDIF in of the DI20HE, select 2-coaxial in. Keep connecting AES out to your DAC.
> This could verify the working order of the DI20HE. If this is working, then the problem lies on USB.
> You may need to reflash the USB again.



I sort of did this. What I did was PC -> USB -> DX usb -> SPDIF -> DI20HE -> AES -> DAC. And I got no sound. I made sure dx usb was the main device. I think though the problem here is that windows has problems with 2x DDC in a series?


----------



## smodtactical

Once I put SPDIF cable in and AES in at the same time but using AES input it seems to be working now. Static sound is gone and its not pausing anymore. Only other thing I did was restart it? Now its working with roon also.


----------



## smodtactical

This thing sounds incredible. Incredible detail I never heard before.. soundstage expands so you can't tell where the borders are... like headphones disappear. Everything  sounds real, natural including voices. Background vocals or minimal ambient cues explode with a mirage of dimensionality now.  This with HD800S  I am going to be comparing this to the u1 mini (with keces p8) and try to rig the u1 mini + di20HE together. 

I can't wait to listen on ns5000 tomorrow.

I am using it with a pi4b streamer.


----------



## smodtactical

Ok so after listening for about 45 mins I only got 2 of those pauses that happen for 1 second. So its at least much better.

Wonder if it could an issue with amanero? Thinking of reinstalling amanero driver. 

I wish the coax strategy worked then i can side step usb altogether by  doing dx usb in front -> coax di20he -> aes -> dac


----------



## Jandu

smodtactical said:


> Ok so after listening for about 45 mins I only got 2 of those pauses that happen for 1 second. So its at least much better.
> 
> Wonder if it could an issue with amanero? Thinking of reinstalling amanero driver.
> 
> I wish the coax strategy worked then i can side step usb altogether by  doing dx usb in front -> coax di20he -> aes -> dac



Try a different RPi, or a clean powered RPi. Sometimes, I get it too, but solved by swapping the RPi4b.


----------



## Wynnytsky

smodtactical said:


> Once I put SPDIF cable in and AES in at the same time but using AES input it seems to be working now. Static sound is gone and its not pausing anymore. Only other thing I did was restart it? Now its working with roon also.



Did I hear this right?
Your using the DI's USB input and you need to plug both coax and AES into the DAC?  And now your DAC's coax and AES inputs both work?

I never tried my DI20's coax in.  I though it was silly but now I'm intrigued by the thought of using a commercial transport that only has a coax output (no I2S, no 10mhz).  When I get my Morion then I can hear what a serious reclocking chain can do for a $300 CD player.


----------



## smodtactical

After starting my PC and di20HE today I again get no sound and also now causing distortions on my pc on roon. Foobar also doesn't work with wasapi, asio or directsound.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@smodtactical
and when you switch it to external clock (which isn't connected) it just goes silent (no static)?

@FredA
Q: if this were a lock/timing issue, would it be circumvented by hooking up a 10mhz clock?  If so I guess it's conceivable that a properly functioning DI20 could exhibit those symptoms by hooking up a bad 10mhz clock.


----------



## smodtactical

Wynnytsky said:


> @smodtactical
> and when you switch it to external clock (which isn't connected) it just goes silent (no static)?



I only selected ext clock once and it just said 'failed'. 

Oh and before when I said I connected spdif and AES inputs I meant to say outputs.


----------



## FredA (Jun 12, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> @smodtactical
> and when you switch it to external clock (which isn't connected) it just goes silent (no static)?
> 
> @FredA
> Q: if this were a lock/timing issue, would it be circumvented by hooking up a 10mhz clock?  If so I guess it's conceivable that a properly functioning DI20 could exhibit those symptoms by hooking up a bad 10mhz clock.


Don’t think so. Maybe a compatibility issue with the Terminator. Or an issue with the di20...


----------



## smodtactical

FredA said:


> Don’t think so. Maybe a compatibility issue with the Terminator. Or an issue with the di20...



I am guessing issue with di20. I really want to open it  up and look inside but waiting for Kingwa to let me know what to do.


----------



## Wynnytsky

smodtactical said:


> I am guessing issue with di20. I really want to open it  up and look inside but waiting for Kingwa to let me know what to do.



BTW
pre-covid a friend brought over a Terminator v2 to my place and my di20he worked great.  And when it worked you enjoyed the di20 over the Terminator's USB input?


----------



## smodtactical

Wynnytsky said:


> BTW
> pre-covid a friend brought over a Terminator v2 to my place and my di20he worked great.  And when it worked you enjoyed the di20 over the Terminator's USB input?



No i did PC -> USB -> DI20HE -> AES -> Terminator and yes it worked yesterday.

Kingwa requested a video with all my settings and setup so I did a 25 min video and sent it to him. First I uploaded to youtube but its blocked for him so uploaded a lower quality version to my private server and sent it over to him. In the video I swapped the sotm dx for the di20he and showed in the video the swap and that it played perfectly whereas the di20HE did not.

Whats weird is I use terminator usb input for my general PC/youtube use and it always works perfectly. And that also uses amanero board? So it makes me doubt its a problem with my PC.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@smodtactical
that's funny cause when I wanted to send qingwa a video [of how well things worked out] I used google chrome's translation support to navigate through China's version of youtube.  Account creation and every login required a code that was texted to my cell phone - oh boy.

so, while the di20he briefly worked, can you rank these 3 configs?
1) dac USB input
2) dac AES input, from dX-USB
3) dac AES input, from DI20HE


----------



## smodtactical

Wynnytsky said:


> @smodtactical
> that's funny cause when I wanted to send qingwa a video [of how well things worked out] I used google chrome's translation support to navigate through China's version of youtube.  Account creation and every login required a code that was texted to my cell phone - oh boy.
> 
> so, while the di20he briefly worked, can you rank these 3 configs?
> ...



The DI20HE clearly sounded the best. But not really in the mood to talk performance while I still have this problem. 

When the unit is cold in the morning, i restarted 2-3 times and it still doesn't work. After it warms up for hours then when I restarted it works but the sound
still cuts out every 4-5 minutes for about 1-2 seconds. Kingwa remarked it only takes 'one minute to restart the machine'. But the problem is its not like it always reliably works with a restart, sometimes it doesn't. Why can't this be engineered to work more fluidly? Without all these bugs and glitches. The whole reason I sold my  SOTM is I wanted a machine that worked really well and reliably. Ill be opening my u1 mini tomorrow, hopefully thats better.

Anyway now Kingwa is asking for teamviewer control of my pc. I set that up then sent an email that we can do teamviewer maybe in 1.5 hours. Its already midnight here.

This whole situation is ultra frustrating. I never imagined I would get such a bad experience with audio gd since my he9 has always been perfect basically.


----------



## motberg

Wynnytsky said:


> @smodtactical
> that's funny cause when I wanted to send qingwa a video [of how well things worked out] I used google chrome's translation support to navigate through China's version of youtube.  Account creation and every login required a code that was texted to my cell phone - oh boy.
> ..........................


WIMI works great in China... not sure if they have a free version though..


----------



## Jandu (Jun 13, 2020)

Jandu said:


> For FredA, or those of us who use the RPi for transport:
> 
> A prototype from Kingwa, however, according to what was released on the forum(chinese), it is unlikely going to make it to the market, due to the difficulties in supporting the SBC hard/software.



A group buy from Audio GD's forum, in Chinese, using GoogleTranslate and dollar conversion from a rough exchange rate. Cost of shipping is extra. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raspberry regenerative power supply group purchase inquiry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See the forum discussion and some customers send emails, WeChat and other things about the raspberry regenerative power supply.
Now send a group buy message to see how everyone responds?
Raspberry regeneration power supply without raspberry.
If the customer needs us to purchase the raspberry board and directly solder the wire to the raspberry, the price is settled according to the actual purchase price, and the PI4B-2G price is 335 yuan(USD $48). PI4B-4G price is 470 yuan(USD $67), including memory card, heat sink, card reader. This part of the accessories need warranty, you need to contact a SBC seller. Or the customer purchased it and sent us to install the direct welding power supply line (limited to Raspberry 4B).

Chassis size: similar to DI20HE.
Technical support: Provide a limited technical support installation document. No additional technical support.
Power output current 2A. (Using 50W output transformer, enough power for Raspberry plus a 128G U disk)

Group purchase customers must be users who purchase two or more Audio GD audio products. Non-AGD users may not understand the timbre characteristics of the product, and may not like this style when purchasing.
It is recommended to use DI-20HE with USB connection.

Group purchase price: 3990 yuan(USD $570).
Delivery time: about 1-2 months (mainly for chassis)

Interested customers please follow the registration below, the deadline is June 21st. More than 20 units are started.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pictures is same as what I have shown earlier. 

If you are interested, please forward your interest and/or question to Audio GD. However, whatever you have learned, if you may share it here, it would be great as well.


----------



## smodtactical

Ok I2s out seems to be working decently. The sound cut out so far hasn't happened in about 40 minutes of playing. Doing u1 mini -> di20HE and it sounds truly incredible!


----------



## smodtactical

Main issue I have now with I2s out. Is that every 5-10 mins I get this 1 second where the volume seems to get slightly imbalanced (left channel a bit louder and maybe tone a bit off, then followed by a very slight pop kinda sound then it goes back to normal). Anyone have something like that?


----------



## PeterCraig

smodtactical said:


> Main issue I have now with I2s out. Is that every 5-10 mins I get this 1 second where the volume seems to get slightly imbalanced (left channel a bit louder and maybe tone a bit off, then followed by a very slight pop kinda sound then it goes back to normal). Anyone have something like that?



Sounds like you got a defective one. Don't pull your hair out (like I always do); you already have Kingwa's attention and he will sort it out. 

The only thing I could suggest is trying a different source PC just to be sure. But it doesn't sound like an issue with the source.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

@smodtactical - for RPI output (ALSA) , you could reflash the Amanero firmware to CPLD_1081_swapped (need windows PC to do this, 64 bit Win 10 is a pain due to Amanero serial port driver not being digitally signed)

I just did that recently for my DI-20HE as I moved from PC playback to RPI4B roon bridge with a high end linear power supply

One more thing you could do, if you have the Altera USB blaster, connect it and run the programmer, reflash the FPGA with the latest firmware

but as @PeterCraig said, if you have a defective unit, Kingwa will sort it out

good luck


----------



## smodtactical

UsoppNoKami said:


> @smodtactical - for RPI output (ALSA) , you could reflash the Amanero firmware to CPLD_1081_swapped (need windows PC to do this, 64 bit Win 10 is a pain due to Amanero serial port driver not being digitally signed)
> 
> I just did that recently for my DI-20HE as I moved from PC playback to RPI4B roon bridge with a high end linear power supply
> 
> ...



Hey I actually just bypassed USB altogether by using a u1 mini in front of it and doing coax -> di20he -> I2s -> terminator. And ya I tried u1 mini by itself extensively and had no such issues.

I think Kingwa feels this is a software issue and not hardware. So i dunno. I will keep listening to it for maybe a week or two and see if the issue goes away with burn in. My guess is that instead of the sound cut out that was happening when I was doing coax out or aes out whats happening is this sound/volume shift + pop in I2s.


----------



## jimmychan

So what was the problem that caused it before, and how did you fix it?


----------



## smodtactical

jimmychan said:


> So what was the problem that caused it before, and how did you fix it?



Im not sure but it seems with any other outputs like AES or coax the sound cut out every 5 minutes at lease once or twice for 1 second.

By going to i2s out instead that problem went away but now I get this sound / volume shift that has a pop at the end which happens every 5-10 mins. I think it has replaced the sound cutting out.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 14, 2020)

Hey guys I'm just about to 'pull the trigger' on a good used Gustard C16 / U16 reclocker combo but someone mentioned about the DI-20 sounding better than the combo unit. Is there a consensus about this, and does that generally apply to the DI-20 standard or the DI-20HE edition? And what are the main differences (mainly sonic-wize). If it's mainly the DI-20HE having more isolation maybe the normal version is good enough since I already connect everything to a decent AC power conditioner.

From what I could tell the normal version is around $450 and the HE version is $988 if that's right.


----------



## JaMo

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys I'm just about to 'pull the trigger' on a good used Gustard C16 / U16 reclocker combo but someone mentioned about the DI-20 sounding better than the combo unit. Is there a consensus about this, and does that generally apply to the DI-20 standard or the DI-20HE edition? And what are the main differences (mainly sonic-wize). If it's mainly the DI-20HE having more isolation maybe the normal version is good enough since I already connect everything to a decent AC power conditioner.
> 
> From what I could tell the normal version is around $450 and the HE version is $988 if that's right.



Hi,
The DI20HE is a significant step up from te U16. It is better in every aspect. I haven't heard the DI20 (non HE). I recommend You to go for the DI20HE and get a decent external XO. (Morion, Oscilloquartz..)
/Jan


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks for your input guys. I'm coming from the Singxer SU-1 early first-gen DDC with my Chord Qutest and for some reason it seems to benefit SUBSTANTIALLY from a series of two other USB purifiers / decrapifiers into it (Wyrd and iFi iPurifier), but even then the sound I'm getting outta my laptop via this USB method doesn't sound quite up to par with a mid-tier standalone CD-Transport via Toslink optical to my same DAC.

I was about to go for the Gustard U16+C16 ext. clock combo until someone mentioned about the DI-20 sounding even better than than the SU-1, SU-6 and even the Gustard combo unit... if I'm not mistaken the standard DI-20 without external clock was said to sound better than the U16 combo with a clock?

I'm hoping that the standard DI-20 would benefit enough from my top Furman AC mains power conditioner (IT Ref 15i) that the difference in performance vs. the DI-20HE would be minimized... is that accurate being I already have a good power conditioner? But I'm just using a generic power cord for the time being. And about an external clock. This would also put me over budget for the moment. Would any of you say the DI-20 (90/98M version) without the external clock would sound at least as good as the Gustard combo with clock?


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh also I'm being open-minded here to try another Audio-GD product, earlier this year I had a very lackluster experience with a new R-1 R2R DAC I ordered from them, sound being inferior IMO than the Modi 2 Multibit DAC even after 3 weeks of continual burn-in. I hope their DDCs are better than their DACs.


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm still deciding on a possible used Gustard U16 +C16 external clock. Any other opinions about the standard DI-20 (with 90/98M) without a clock vs. the Gustard Combo, and if  good power filtering would make the standard version closer to the DI-20*HE* version? Thanks!


----------



## iFi audio

DecentLevi said:


> I'm coming from the Singxer SU-1 early first-gen DDC with my Chord Qutest and for some reason it seems to benefit SUBSTANTIALLY from a series of two other USB purifiers / decrapifiers into it (Wyrd and iFi iPurifier),



Which ones by iFi were in your setup if I may ask?


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 16, 2020)

It's the iFi iPurifier2 USB from about 2016. It improved the clarity / resolution etc. for all my setups but one which made it sound a bit clinical. Maybe with that and the Wyrd and power conditioning with a DI-20 I won't even need an external clock or the top HE version...


----------



## iFi audio

DecentLevi said:


> It's the iFi iPurifier2 USB from about 2016. It improved the clarity / resolution etc. for all my setups but one which made it sound a bit clinical. Maybe with that and thy Wyrd and power conditioning with a DI-20 I won't even need an external clock or the top HE version...



Thanks. It's difficult to predict whether one external clock would be able to replace your USB chain. Considering what you already have in there, I would probably have a think about a galvanic isolator. Any product of this type should work with what you already have, and they're quite effective in general.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jun 15, 2020)

I have been getting very confusing messages regarding my Mutec Ref10 SE-120 over the last month since I purchased it.

Sometimes it sounds worse than my Morion, sometimes around equal, and sometimes substantially better.

I finally figured out the problem and confirmed it with several tests.

The instructions say to burn in the unit for two weeks and then power it off as it only needs 30 minutes of warm-up time before a listening session; and my listening to these instructions was the source of my inconsistent results.  30 minutes of warm-up gives me worse results than my Morion when it is always powered up.  Two hours warm-up gives me better results than my Morion- but not by that much.  After leaving the clock on for around 7-8 hours the music from my system sounds totally different- worlds better than my Morion.

I do not understand why Mutec instructs to power off after every use.  The sonic differences are enormous.  I am still trying to determine if it is worth it to power the unit down at night before bed and just power it up in the morning.  I anyway don't listen to music until mid-day...


----------



## PeterCraig

Many people are not comfortable purchasing equipment that needs to be powered 24/7.

I never turn off any of my gear except for my tube amp.


----------



## iFi audio

rsbrsvp said:


> I do not understand why Mutec instructs to power off after every use. The sonic differences are enormous. I am still trying to determine if it is worth it to power the unit down at night before bed and just power it up in the morning. I anyway don't listen to music until mid-day...



It might have something to do with internal clock's temperature. Such delicate devices need some time to settle in after turning them on, and they reach their optimal working conditions after a while. I'm not sure which DAC was it (I think Auralic Vega), but it unlocked the exact clock setting after an hour or so of work. That's how much time it took to stabilize in full. Perhaps in case of that Mutec it's something similar?


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 16, 2020)

Hey guys looks like I'm getting a DI-20 (non HE) 90/98M edition.



JaMo said:


> Hi,
> The DI20HE is a significant step up from te U16. It is better in every aspect. I haven't heard the DI20 (non HE). I recommend You to go for the DI20HE and get a decent external XO. (Morion, Oscilloquartz..)
> /Jan


So would an affordable recommended ext. clock be like this, or this one? Thanks


----------



## smodtactical

Kingwa told me not to open the di20he and take a pic to send to him. Said to send it back if I think theres a problem, he'll check it, if any issue he will refund my shipping it back to him and pay to ship me a new unit/repaired unit. If he can't find a problem then he'll just refund me my purchase price less shipping.

I'm kinda hoping burning it more will magically fix the issue but I kinda doubt it. Will burn it in for about a week. Finger crossed that the issue will just magically resolve.


----------



## smodtactical

JaMo said:


> Hi,
> The DI20HE is a significant step up from te U16. It is better in every aspect. I haven't heard the DI20 (non HE). I recommend You to go for the DI20HE and get a decent external XO. (Morion, Oscilloquartz..)
> /Jan



Didn't someone mention that Morion on di20HE alone didn't have a big impact... its with DI20HE + r7HE (connected to both) that the impact became big?


----------



## smodtactical

Ok wow some new revelations.

So I decided to do u1 mini -> usb -> sotm dx usb -> AES -> terminator...

If this was clean that would definitely eliminate my AES pathway as being the issue. But.... I got sound CUT OUTS!!!!! This means the cut out issue is either a problem with my AES cable or AES input. So its not the DI20HE !!

But couple things remain. Even before when i was doing i2s out of di20he, i would still get that sound shift + pop problem
i think thats pure di20he.

The other mystery, why did i never have issues before going from pi -> sotm dx usb -> aes -> terminator. Did my aes cable or input just get screwed up recently ?

Right now listening to u1 mini -> usb -> di20HE -> I2s (hdmi) -> terminator... so far its sounding stable! Will report back.


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> I have been getting very confusing messages regarding my Mutec Ref10 SE-120 over the last month since I purchased it.
> 
> Sometimes it sounds worse than my Morion, sometimes around equal, and sometimes substantially better.
> 
> ...



Hi Steven, 
I have answered You in PM but think it is a general interest in this matter. There is no reason to power off the external OCXO's independent on brand. It takes about 12 to 24 h to get back to the stable phase and highest performance level after a full cool down. The power draw is a few watts running. 3-4 Watts running and 8-10 Watts heating up phase. 

If You are going away for a period. Turn it off to save burning hours on it, but don't power cycle it every day.
I have my gears powered on at all times except in the hottest summer time. To have the sound system ready to do its best for me at any hour is paradise for me. 
/Jan


----------



## UsoppNoKami

smodtactical said:


> Ok wow some new revelations.
> 
> So I decided to do u1 mini -> usb -> sotm dx usb -> AES -> terminator...
> 
> ...



I have had issues when just swapping two different AGD devices on a RPI running ropiee roonbridge, even though they are both Amanero interfaces. 

Suggest you reflash your RPI SD card with a fresh OS and player/bridge solution, see if that helps. Resetting the RPI when a new device is connected shouldn't be necessary, but it worked better for me for whatever reason.


----------



## Oepsie

smodtactical said:


> Didn't someone mention that Morion on di20HE alone didn't have a big impact... its with DI20HE + r7HE (connected to both) that the impact became big?


I tried a pretty basic OCXO oven clock (~50$ + a 100$ lps) with my nonHE DI20 (90/98 version). The impact was huge. Much more natural timbre and sound from instruments. And the DI20 is really good in the first place, so for me, definitely an area to experiment with. My friend tried it as well and the impact in his system was less obvious. Our theory is that it also depends on the ability of the DAC; I have an older DAC that probably does not have any advanced filtering mechanism and my friend has a much more high end DAC (a DCS).


----------



## rsbrsvp

JaMo said:


> Hi Steven,
> I have answered You in PM but think it is a general interest in this matter. There is no reason to power off the external OCXO's independent on brand. It takes about 12 to 24 h to get back to the stable phase and highest performance level after a full cool down. The power draw is a few watts running. 3-4 Watts running and 8-10 Watts heating up phase.
> 
> If You are going away for a period. Turn it off to save burning hours on it, but don't power cycle it every day.
> ...



Here is an email I received from Mutec after inquiring about this issue: 
__________________________________________________________
Hello Mr. Rubin,

Nice to hear that you like our REF10. The OCXO will not damage so fast but the jitter will be better if you leave the unit all the time on. We have a lot of customers who leave the unit on and say its getting even better sound wise.
I wish you many hours of fun listening thru our REF10.

Also let me know if you have more questions.

best
Tom Porcell


----------



## roni44

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys looks like I'm getting a DI-20 (non HE) 90/98M edition.
> 
> 
> So would an affordable recommended ext. clock by like this or this one? Thanks



I personally happy with my GPSDO, and the antenna needs to place next to window doesn't really bother me. All name brand clock don't uses GPS, and most of 10mhz clock users here don't use GPS, therefore, I don't think GPS is necessary.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 16, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> Thanks. It's difficult to predict whether one external clock would be able to replace your USB chain. Considering what you already have in there, I would probably have a think about a galvanic isolator. Any product of this type should work with what you already have, and they're quite effective in general.


Galvanic isolator - those are something I've seen mentioned around the forum over the years. Actually I'm not entirely sure that I don't already in effect have one, with the properties of either my iFi iPurifier2 USB or the Schiit Wyrd? Those have either reclocking and/or power isolating functions. And my Singxer SU-1 (soon to be replaced with DI-20), don't they have some sort of galvanic isolating process along with the reclocking / audio connection type conversions? If such a component would not be redundant, which of those would it be most likely to replace? And which would you recommend? Just curious.


Oepsie said:


> I tried a pretty basic OCXO oven clock (~50$ + a 100$ lps) with my nonHE DI20 (90/98 version). The impact was huge. Much more natural timbre and sound from instruments. And the DI20 is really good in the first place, so for me, definitely an area to experiment with. My friend tried it as well and the impact in his system was less obvious. Our theory is that it also depends on the ability of the DAC; I have an older DAC that probably does not have any advanced filtering mechanism and my friend has a much more high end DAC (a DCS).


Oh that's encouraging that a big improvement can be had from an affordable ext. clock. Per your theory on the effect of an external clock depending on the DAC in use, does anyone around here know whether or not the Chord Qutest DAC improves much with a clock on the DI-20 or not? That's the DAC I'm using, the Qutest...
Which ext. clock were you using?


roni44 said:


> I personally happy with my GPSDO, and the antenna needs to place next to window doesn't really bother me. All name brand clock don't uses GPS, and most of 10mhz clock users here don't use GPS, therefore, I don't think GPS is necessary.


Oh so you're saying some of the GPSDO ext. clocks have an antenna to use as a GPS, but most don't use it and it doesn't seem to make much difference anyway, right?
And which GPSDO ext. clock do you have?


----------



## roni44

Oh so you're saying some of the GPSDO ext. clocks have an antenna to use as a GPS, but most don't use it and it doesn't seem to make much difference anyway, right?
And which GPSDO ext. clock do you have?
[/QUOTE]

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id...n0HE4_le1wZkOy3q8hYqzvEGu4w4&app=macos_safari

This is one I'm using with Sinewave, it use to sell on Amazon, but not sure now. GPSDO requires antenna at all time, so if you do go that route, then antenna has to be in place. And I leave mine on full time, if ever need to reboot, it will take few mins for GPS to lock on.


----------



## smodtactical

Oepsie said:


> I tried a pretty basic OCXO oven clock (~50$ + a 100$ lps) with my nonHE DI20 (90/98 version). The impact was huge. Much more natural timbre and sound from instruments. And the DI20 is really good in the first place, so for me, definitely an area to experiment with. My friend tried it as well and the impact in his system was less obvious. Our theory is that it also depends on the ability of the DAC; I have an older DAC that probably does not have any advanced filtering mechanism and my friend has a much more high end DAC (a DCS).



Which dac?


----------



## smodtactical

For those of you using a DI20HE with roon, do you ever get the error "An audio file is loading slowly: This may indicate..." ?


----------



## UsoppNoKami

smodtactical said:


> For those of you using a DI20HE with roon, do you ever get the error "An audio file is loading slowly: This may indicate..." ?



Reboot router


----------



## iFi audio

DecentLevi said:


> Galvanic isolator - those are something I've seen mentioned around the forum over the years. Actually I'm not entirely sure that I don't already in effect have one, with the properties of either my iFi iPurifier2 USB or the Schiit Wyrd? Those have either reclocking and/or power isolating functions. And my Singxer SU-1 (soon to be replaced with DI-20), don't they have some sort of galvanic isolating process along with the reclocking / audio connection type conversions? If such a component would not be redundant, which of those would it be most likely to replace? And which would you recommend? Just curious.



Galvanic isolators aren't as popular as USB reclockers/cleaners, but they're also effective. Our own iPurifiers are reclockers and signal cleaners, and from what I can tell so are Wyrd and SU-1, but neither of these three components provides galvanic isolation for USB. You would need a separate product for that.

The good news are that galvanic isolators don't render reclockers as useless and action of both these product types ads up. There's also one principle worth following. Galvanic isolators go before reclockers. So if you go from your laptop to a DAC, your setup should look like this: laptop -> glavanic USB isolator -> USB reclocker -> DAC. The point of this is to have USB signal galvanically isolated as soon as possible. Hope this helps!


----------



## Jackula

smodtactical said:


> Didn't someone mention that Morion on di20HE alone didn't have a big impact... its with DI20HE + r7HE (connected to both) that the impact became big?



I have a different opinion on that now. 

Been doing more testing and it's not that the Morion makes only marginal improvement to the DI-20HE, it's only marginal if the DAC is already hooked up to the Morion.

Let's say if the improvement is 100% with both the R7HE and DI-20HE are hooked up to the Morion. If only the DI-20HE is connected the improvement is 50%, if only the DAC is connected the improvement is 80%. So connecting the DI-20HE would only add another 20% if the DAC is already connected.


----------



## smodtactical

For those of you running I2s out of the DI20HE any cable recommendations? Right now using an 8k cable I got off amazon. I have wireworld chroma 6 stuck at the post office. Might be stuck for a while... looking at other options. I can get a wireworld ultraviolet 7 for about $78 usd. Any thoughts on good hdmi cables for under $150 ?


----------



## motberg (Jun 18, 2020)

iFi audio said:


> ...... -> glavanic USB isolator -> USB reclocker -> DAC. The point of this is to have USB signal galvanically isolated as soon as possible. Hope this helps!


Good advice... This is exactly what I am doing here and appears to offer a stable, consistent and high quality USB stream
Note I think that the reclocker needs to have an isolated power supply (battery should be OK to reduce cost)..
(I had a Uptone ISORegen which is isolation + reclocker, but did not work in my system. My estimation is they have at least a 10% failure rate where the Isolation function does not work. The Singxer UIP-1 and original Intona work perfectly here.)

Computer USB
(Longer USB cable)
Singxer UIP-1 (Mains Regenerator / LPS / LT3045 box)
(Shorter USB Cable)
Wyred 4 Sound Recovery (10A LPS / Uptone LPS1.2 / LT3045 box)
(Shortest USB Cable or Uptone USPCB adapter)
DDC/DAC


----------



## Donnyhifi

smodtactical said:


> For those of you running I2s out of the DI20HE any cable recommendations? Right now using an 8k cable I got off amazon. I have wireworld chroma 6 stuck at the post office. Might be stuck for a while... looking at other options. I can get a wireworld ultraviolet 7 for about $78 usd. Any thoughts on good hdmi cables for under $150 ?



Hi, I am using a DI20 Accusilicon 98M model along with a AGD M7 via I2S connected together via Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 0.3M length. I think the cable is of excellent build quality, sounds good and reasonably priced.

I will post some thoughts on the Audio GD DI20 vs the Singxer SU-1 after a couple hundred hours of burn in but even out of the box I am very impressed with the DI20!


----------



## iFi audio

motberg said:


> Note I think that the reclocker needs to have an isolated power supply (battery should be OK to reduce cost)..



I agree and that's why our TOTL reclocker, that would be micro iUSB3.0, is powered from external iPower unit.


----------



## Jackula (Jun 18, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> For those of you running I2s out of the DI20HE any cable recommendations? Right now using an 8k cable I got off amazon. I have wireworld chroma 6 stuck at the post office. Might be stuck for a while... looking at other options. I can get a wireworld ultraviolet 7 for about $78 usd. Any thoughts on good hdmi cables for under $150 ?



You can always try the Blue Jean HDMI that's often recommended here, it's the price of two coffees.

Thanks to @rsbrsvp 's post about the Chroma 7 being too thin, I also heard it after more listening. And once I heard it I couldn't unhear it  But I couldn't go to the Blue Jean either due to its obvious treble glare on my setup. So I also ordered the Ultraviolet 0.3m which I hoped will be the best of both cables, it's currently in transit.

Over the last weekend I upgraded my USB cable which changed my sound again. It's removed the treble glare on the Blue Jean but made it sound even more washed out. OTOH it synergizes perfectly with the Chroma 7, adding much needed body and improving the soundstage. I'd say my Chroma 7 is now in the sweet spot and I'm no longer looking forward to the Ultraviolet as much as before.

As for other suggestions. There's the Van Den Hul Flat HEAC which has a thicker smoother sound compared to Chroma 7, but the shortest they make is 1m.

A friend of mine uses an Audioquest Carbon between his D300Ref and Termmy and it's his favourite, he's compared it against my Chroma and VDH HEAC.


----------



## iFi audio

Jackula said:


> You can always try the Blue Jean HDMI that's often recommended here, it's the price of two coffees.



And said to be good coffees at that


----------



## Wynnytsky

@DecentLevi 
I think the DI20HE has galvanic isolation.  I would confirm with Qingwa but I'll say my Intona stopped making a diff once I got the DI20HE (maybe @FredA as well).  In fact it was slightly worse because of the filtering aspect of having an additional [expensive] USB cable in series.  My ideal chain will start with an externally powered USB PCIE card and have no inline gadgets.  For the longest time I was hoping Pink Faun would liberate me from USB, but I'm back in the USB camp.

I've used a bunch of vendors and I found that the iFi is the most heavy handed in that it changes the sound the most.  I leave it to you to decide how much of that is unlocking the truth vs coloring.



motberg said:


> My estimation is they have at least a 10% failure rate where the Isolation function does not work.


When I had multiple gadgets in series I found that the number one culprit that prevented a combination from locking was the USB cables being used (and if it came first or second).  The longer the cable the greater the chance of failure.  The [now vintage] Lotus Polestar was my most relaxed+organic USB cable but it often was the culprit for a lock failure.



Jackula said:


> You can always try the Blue Jean HDMI that's often recommended here, it's the price of two coffees.


yes and he doesn't mean an AudioQuest Coffee either


----------



## iFi audio

Wynnytsky said:


> I've used a bunch of vendors and I found that the iFi is the most heavy handed in that it changes the sound the most. I leave it to you to decide how much of that is unlocking the truth vs coloring.



That's a subject up for a very broad debate related to noise and how it affects our setups regardless of places where it's injected. Our accessories were designed to limit noise as much has they can, which has more to do with revealing how an audio setup sounds like with it lower than any colourations. But I understand that noise removal can be taken as a colouration of sort.


----------



## Wynnytsky

iFi audio said:


> That's a subject up for a very broad debate related to noise and how it affects our setups regardless of places where it's injected. Our accessories were designed to limit noise as much has they can, which has more to do with revealing how an audio setup sounds like with it lower than any colourations. But I understand that noise removal can be taken as a colouration of sort.



My friend has been enjoying the iGalvanic3.0 with the Matrix x-spdf2 for a while (and this is a guy who switches stuff up on the regular).  MusicDirect is great about accepting returns so for anyone looking to try something new, this unit brought me more change than the iusb2 and iusb3 I owned before it (with the mercury and gemini).  Just buy new so you have the return option.

For me, the very reason I buy something is often the reason I end up selling it.  It's a common signature that my brain figures out, then bores of.  And remember, there are many active/passive cures/filters/gadgets in audio, but as you upgrade your gear you should regression test, because the new stuff may not exhibit the issue your were addressing with a gadget.  ex: upgrading from the SU1 to DI20HE allowed me to shed the Industrial Intona


----------



## FredA

Yes indeed, Victor. The DI20he need no isolator it seems to me. But can benefit from a very clean usb signal I assume.


----------



## iFi audio

Wynnytsky said:


> For me, the very reason I buy something is often the reason I end up selling it. It's a common signature that my brain figures out, then bores of. And remember, there are many active/passive cures/filters/gadgets in audio, but as you upgrade your gear you should regression test, because the new stuff may not exhibit the issue your were addressing with a gadget. ex: upgrading from the SU1 to DI20HE allowed me to shed the Industrial Intona



I hear you. If I were to buy i.e. a DAC with galvanically isolated USB input, I wouldn't use iGalvanic3.0 on top of that, and the same story is with reclockers. There's a limit of what's reasonable of course.


----------



## Wynnytsky

iFi audio said:


> I hear you. If I were to buy i.e. a DAC with galvanically isolated USB input, I wouldn't use iGalvanic3.0 on top of that, and the same story is with reclockers. There's a limit of what's reasonable of course.



With my diy STX computer feeding the DI20HE I do hear a benefit using a gadget that let's me inject 5v from an LPS.  Those USB cards also have that and you don't need a 2nd USB cable, so my next build will be AMD on mini ITX, which has a slot for the USB card.  Then I hopefully can part with the $150 w4s recovery and one of my $500+ usb cables.

BTW
the Gemini had the widest stage I've ever heard from any USB cable.  These AGD dacs have a strong center image so I think they'd complement each other well.


----------



## smodtactical

Regarding the Pop / volume shift for 1 second every 5 minutes approximately.  I think I have isolated the problem to the DI20HE coax input:

PC -> usb -> Sotm dx usb -> coax -> DI20HE -> I2s -> Terminator (Problem occurs)

PC -> ethernet-> router/switch -> U1 mini -> coax -> di20HE -> I2s -> Terminator (Problem occurs)

---

PC -> usb -> di20HE -> I2s -> Terminator (Problem gone)

PC -> ethernet-> router/switch -> U1 mini -> usb -> di20HE -> I2s -> Terminator (Problem gone)

PC -> Usb - > sotm dx usb -> Coax -> Terminator (Problem gone)


----------



## iFi audio (Jun 18, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> Those USB cards also have that and you don't need a 2nd USB cable, so my next build will be AMD on mini ITX, which has a slot for the USB card. Then I hopefully can part with the $150 w4s recovery and one of my $500+ usb cables.



You mean audio grade PCI-E cards with USB outs like i.e. JCAT? I've never used one in my PC so I can't say, but I've heard some good words about this type. They're quite popular among people building their own audio PCs (and audio manufacturers into seriously expensive stuff), so I imagine that there's a valid reason for that 



Wynnytsky said:


> The Gemini had the widest stage I've ever heard from any USB cable.


Well, thank you


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Regarding the Pop / volume shift for 1 second every 5 minutes approximately.  I think I have isolated the problem to the DI20HE coax input:
> 
> PC -> usb -> Sotm dx usb -> coax -> DI20HE -> I2s -> Terminator (Problem occurs)
> 
> ...


I have an issue too with the coax in. Mention it to Kingwa. I suppose there is a possible fw fix.


----------



## smodtactical

FredA said:


> I have an issue too with the coax in. Mention it to Kingwa. I suppose there is a possible fw fix.



Did you fix your issue? What was your issue ?

Anyone else using coax input of di20he ?


----------



## smodtactical

Ok explanation from Kingwa

"
I think the coaxial input level may not compatible with your coaxial source.
We have test the DI20HE every unit with 0.45V p-p at 75 ohm signal before shipping.
If the coaxial source output level is not enough to 0.45V p-p at 75 ohm it may can not drive the DI20 HE exact work fine.
For the CD player, DVD player , they must can output enough level , but for the USB converter,especial PC sound card , it may not always enough level , especial the higher sampling, the level drop more than lower sampling.
Kingwa"

So I guess no work around? Its a shame because the coax input to me definitely sounds better than usb.


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Ok explanation from Kingwa
> 
> "
> I think the coaxial input level may not compatible with your coaxial source.
> ...


I am not sure. Depends on how many have the issue. My oppo drive works fine with the r7he directly but not with the di20he. I think if the serial mode was taken out of the fw, it might help. And from what i remember, i did have this issue with the previous fw. If most have it, Kingwa will have to find the cause. It is a subtle problem, and it occurs only every 3 minutes or so i  my case. Maybe Kingwa just missed it. It is more obvious with certwin recordings. I will make a test right now  to verify if i still have the issue.


----------



## FredA

The problem could go away with burn-in. I would say that with the usbridge feeding the di20he, the usb input is perhaps a little bit better, in any case the reclocking job the di20he does on coax is just remarkable, so much better than a direct connection to the r7he. Very close in quality with usb. The coax input is maybe a tad more fluid, but i would say maybe a little less accurate. Hard to separate them without much a to b. The noise level is likely lower inside when using the coax in, so that helps. 

Try sending a file with which the issue is obvious to Kingwa. In any case, i don't hear the problem at the moment listening to Jan Lungren's Postdamer Platz. Great sound. Great album. I tought i would not like it @JaMo, but i love it. Thanks! 

I may have heard a couple of small glitches within 10min. Not sure. Yep. Just got a subtle glitch on the right. 

But my Oppo could be part of the issue. When the tv has an issue with the cable boxe's signal, it affect the good behavior of the oppo, which cuts the sound on the spdif out. Strange design. Disconnecting the tv from it would be best. But in any case, the r7he does not have the problem. It is subtle, but i still have the issue. Once every 3-5 minute, there is a popping sound either on the left or the right, sometimes both in sequence.


----------



## smodtactical

FredA said:


> The problem could go away with burn-in. I would say that with the usbridge feeding the di20he, the usb input is perhaps a little bit better, in any case the reclocking job the di20he does on coax is just remarkable, so much better than a direct connection to the r7he. Very close in quality with usb. The coax input is maybe a tad more fluid, but i would say maybe a little less accurate. Hard to separate them without much a to b. The noise level is likely lower inside when using the coax in, so that helps.
> 
> Try sending a file with which the issue is obvious to Kingwa. In any case, i don't hear the problem at the moment listening to Jan Lungren's Postdamer Platz. Great sound. Great album. I tought i would not like it @JaMo, but i love it. Thanks!
> 
> ...



Did you see his explanation above? Thoughts on it ?


----------



## smodtactical (Jun 18, 2020)

btw I find coax input significantly better, more resolving, larger soundstage, more air than usb.. this is with audio sensibility statement usb vs QED digital reference coax, both 1 m.


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> btw I find coax input significantly better, more resolving, larger soundstage, more air than usb.. this is with audio sensibility statement usb vs QED digital reference coax, both 1 m.


Kingwa does not really give an explanation, it is just an hypothesis. IMO, the issue is likely because the di20he gets tested with a drive with very low jitter at the factory, or was missed due to the fact the glitches are so sparsed that he did not realize they were there.

Anyone else having a glitch every 3-5 minutes with the coax input?


----------



## FredA

I don't mind much again as with the usbridge and the two-trunk usb cable i use, usb is better for all i can tell.


----------



## smodtactical

You like usb more? Which usb and spdif cables you using ?

Kingwa said hes going try to make firmware using singxer su1 to fix the issue

"When the fiwmare designing we will use the SU1 as source to test the firmware design.
Kingwa"


----------



## FredA (Jun 19, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> You like usb more? Which usb and spdif cables you using ?
> 
> Kingwa said hes going try to make firmware using singxer su1 to fix the issue
> 
> ...


Good news.

I use a cable i got from a Hong Kong website long time ago, which does not operate anymore. It is hanmade with Sommer Cable wire. I also own a pure silver one from ebay, which is better but a little too bright with my current setup.

My spdif cable is a cheap but decent 2meter one i got from Monoprice. A 20$ cable, surprisingly well made.


----------



## Toni-Mang

Hi,
any thought about P mode vs. S mode and P Firmware on R7/ R8? My experience is that both in P Mode, the Soundstange is slightly scewed to the left...with the Di20HE in S and TDA asy P on the R8, the Image is stable and focussed. I also tried Di20HE in P and TDA Asy on the R8...also focussed, but not as good as the other way round...might be my Laptop USB signal...
The Di20HE is now very very near to the PS Audio PWT soundstage wise...both via I2S in the R8...(input 4 /cable swap/ and 5 /no swap/). It should be burned in now and I Like it...as always a question of taste.


----------



## smodtactical

So hes going to work on the firmware in August:

"In my plan I will work on the firmware in around Aug.
In that time I will put the point on the SPDIF input/output .
Kingwa"


----------



## FredA

Toni-Mang said:


> Hi,
> any thought about P mode vs. S mode and P Firmware on R7/ R8? My experience is that both in P Mode, the Soundstange is slightly scewed to the left...with the Di20HE in S and TDA asy P on the R8, the Image is stable and focussed. I also tried Di20HE in P and TDA Asy on the R8...also focussed, but not as good as the other way round...might be my Laptop USB signal...
> The Di20HE is now very very near to the PS Audio PWT soundstage wise...both via I2S in the R8...(input 4 /cable swap/ and 5 /no swap/). It should be burned in now and I Like it...as always a question of taste.


I prefer the p mode with the external (morion mv89a). Took a bit of time to get used to it but it sounds more accurate.


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> So hes going to work on the firmware in August:
> 
> "In my plan I will work on the firmware in around Aug.
> In that time I will put the point on the SPDIF input/output .
> Kingwa"


Great news!


----------



## DecentLevi

Toni-Mang said:


> Hi,
> any thought about P mode vs. S mode and P Firmware on R7/ R8? My experience is that both in P Mode, the Soundstange is slightly scewed to the left...with the Di20HE in S and TDA asy P on the R8, the Image is stable and focussed. I also tried Di20HE in P and TDA Asy on the R8...also focussed, but not as good as the other way round...might be my Laptop USB signal...
> The Di20HE is now very very near to the PS Audio PWT soundstage wise...both via I2S in the R8...(input 4 /cable swap/ and 5 /no swap/). It should be burned in now and I Like it...as always a question of taste.


World-class looking setup. And I haven't even seen your speakers yet or probably other headphones. What is that unit towards the bottom center? It looks like a studio-grade cassette player. And what is that you have below your laptop? Some kind of vibration absorption? I've been curious if vibration isolating feet would have any impact on sound performance from my laptop with USB audio.


----------



## DecentLevi

When asking Kingwa about a recommended type of external clock, here was his response:

_Up to now, I only test with the Gustard C16 and one OCXO built by us, that can improve on sound slightly .
I think not every model OCXO can improve on sound because the output signal level, the best level design is 1V p-p at 50 ohm but the comparible can from 0.3V to 3 V.
And square wave output model is better than the sine wave output model.
Kingwa_

Not knowing anything about ext. clocks, the above doesn't make sense to me. Does this one seem to fit with his description? And can someone help me make sense of any of those numerical terms above, what do they stand for and what does it mean? _1V p-p at 50 ohm but the comparible can from 0.3V to 3 V_


----------



## newabc

Kingwa got a mutec ref-10 (link; google translate)


----------



## FredA (Jun 20, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> When asking Kingwa about a recommended type of external clock, here was his response:
> 
> _Up to now, I only test with the Gustard C16 and one OCXO built by us, that can improve on sound slightly .
> I think not every model OCXO can improve on sound because the output signal level, the best level design is 1V p-p at 50 ohm but the comparible can from 0.3V to 3 V.
> ...


The clock you linked has only one 10Mhz out. Ok  if you have only one device to connect.The square wave output sounds better than the sine from general consensus . They seem to offer two output level options either 3.3v or 4.7vpp. 3.3vpp will work, cause within the limit. Barely within. Ideally choose a unit with lower outout level. Somewhere between 1 and 2vpp.


----------



## DecentLevi

Wynnytsky said:


> With my diy STX computer feeding the DI20HE I do hear a benefit using a gadget that let's me inject 5v from an LPS.  Those USB cards also have that and you don't need a 2nd USB cable, so my next build will be AMD on mini ITX, which has a slot for the USB card.  Then I hopefully can part with the $150 w4s recovery and one of my $500+ usb cables.
> 
> BTW
> the Gemini had the widest stage I've ever heard from any USB cable.  These AGD dacs have a strong center image so I think they'd complement each other well.





iFi audio said:


> You mean audio grade PCI-E cards with USB outs like i.e. JCAT? I've never used one in my PC so I can't say, but I've heard some good words about this type. They're quite popular among people building their own audio PCs (and audio manufacturers into seriously expensive stuff), so I imagine that there's a valid reason for that


On the topic of getting the best from computer USB audio, there seems to have been compelling words from elsewhere that this method in general can reproduce great audio, but just not "the last 10%" of potential (not my words). I have seen several people in the hobby who have forgone even the most state-of-the-art computer USB systems in favor of standalone music servers as a source. The above posts hint at an alternative that seems to have potential. Something like a "PC/SoTM USB card", which replaces your standard USB port with one designed for optimal audio performance via USB output. This seems a new entry in our hobby, vs. the traditional soundcard which is tailored towards analog output.





But in my case it doesn't appear to be possible, being that I have a laptop (PC), lacking an internal PCI-E slot. I spent all day recently searching for a possible 'hack' allowing me to use one of these with my laptop, searching for something like a e-sata, HDMI or VGA to external PCI-E adapter but to no avail. Does anyone have an idea about how I could make something like this work with my laptop externally like with a special cable adapter, even if it's not enclosed? 

Nevertheless my DI-20 is on the way and it should make an improvement too.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

DecentLevi said:


> On the topic of getting the best from computer USB audio, there seems to have been compelling words from elsewhere that this method in general can reproduce great audio, but just not "the last 10%" of potential (not my words). I have seen several people in the hobby who have forgone even the most state-of-the-art computer USB systems in favor of standalone music servers as a source. The above posts hint at an alternative that seems to have potential. Something like a "PC/SoTM USB card", which replaces your standard USB port with one designed for optimal audio performance via USB output. This seems a new entry in our hobby, vs. the traditional soundcard which is tailored towards analog output.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



if you are a roon user, just get a cheap Raspberry Pi4B and a good linear power supply, use that as an endpoint hooked up to your DAC or incoming DI-20 instead.  

i have a PC fitted with Matrix Element H PCIe USB card fitted with crystek femto clocks, and externally powered by a good LPS, but the RPI4B sounds better.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 20, 2020)

UsoppNoKami said:


> if you are a roon user, just get a cheap Raspberry Pi4B and a good linear power supply, use that as an endpoint hooked up to your DAC or incoming DI-20 instead.
> 
> i have a PC fitted with Matrix Element H PCIe USB card fitted with crystek femto clocks, and externally powered by a good LPS, but the RPI4B sounds better.


Thanks for the idea. Is a Raspberry Pi a standalone music server or interfaced with a computer? And by 'endpoint' do you mean source? And since I don't use any streaming services such as Roon, is there a good way to route all of my PC audio to this external device? Finally, which connection type does the Raspberry Pi use to connect to the computer? Didn't mean to get too off topic, you can reply by PM. thanks,


----------



## Jandu (Jun 21, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> Thanks for the idea. Is a Raspberry Pi a standalone music server or interfaced with a computer? And by 'endpoint' do you mean source? And since I don't use any streaming services such as Roon, is there a good way to route all of my PC audio to this external device? Finally, which connection type does the Raspberry Pi use to connect to the computer? Didn't mean to get too off topic, you can reply by PM. thanks,



In my system, which are limited by my components and other restrictions, anyone of the following choices is better, sound quality wise, than a PC base or a Apple Mac based system. However, a good source of power supply is one of the key components. As long as your music sources are available on a NAS drive or on a USB storage device, anyone of the system can access your full music library up to 10,000 or so files. It can actually do more than that, however, the interfaces may not be ideal for that.

Raspberry Pi 4B - with a HAT (Hifiberry Digi Pro or Justboom Digi) - S/PDIF connection - using MoOde software
Raspberry Pi 4B - USB connection - using PiCorePlayer software
Allo USBridge Signature - USB Connection - using MoOde software

Any one of the system does not require any of your PC/Apple Mac to be up and running. As long as your music files are available. All of the above may use your cell phone(wifi), tablet, PC or Apple Mac as your web browser interface to control the software. The limitation is both your music playing system and your control interface have to be on the same router within your location.


----------



## iFi audio

DecentLevi said:


> On the topic of getting the best from computer USB audio, there seems to have been compelling words from elsewhere that this method in general can reproduce great audio, but just not "the last 10%" of potential (not my words). I have seen several people in the hobby who have forgone even the most state-of-the-art computer USB systems in favor of standalone music servers as a source. The above posts hint at an alternative that seems to have potential. Something like a "PC/SoTM USB card", which replaces your standard USB port with one designed for optimal audio performance via USB output. This seems a new entry in our hobby, vs. the traditional soundcard which is tailored towards analog output.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you use a laptop, a PCI-E USB card won't work. I saw external PCI-E dongles for drives, but I'm not sure whether this interface would work with that PCI-E USB card by SOtM. Even if it did, most likely it'd connect to your laptop through USB anyway, which defeats the purpose


----------



## motberg

FredA said:


> I have an issue too with the coax in. Mention it to Kingwa. I suppose there is a possible fw fix.


very interesting the reports of excellent sound quality using coax.... maybe you can consider give this a try to see if solves the problem and perhaps helps coax surpass USB..I have/had many iFi products and all are obviously well engineered. I believe  musicdirect offers a probationary period  so no risk....
https://ifi-audio.com/products/spdif-ipurifier2/


----------



## motberg

UsoppNoKami said:


> if you are a roon user, just get a cheap Raspberry Pi4B and a good linear power supply, use that as an endpoint hooked up to your DAC or incoming DI-20 instead.
> 
> i have a PC fitted with Matrix Element H PCIe USB card fitted with crystek femto clocks, and externally powered by a good LPS, but the RPI4B sounds better.


great info.... could it be the sound quality improvement is software related ? maybe Windows vs. Linux ?


----------



## iFi audio

motberg said:


> very interesting the reports of excellent sound quality using coax.... maybe you can consider give this a try to see if solves the problem and perhaps helps coax surpass USB..I have/had many iFi products and all are obviously well engineered. I believe musicdirect offers a probationary period so no risk....
> https://ifi-audio.com/products/spdif-ipurifier2/



Yup, SPDIF iPurifier2 was launched three days ago. And yes, our return policy is generous, taking an iFi product for a spin at one's own setup is risk-free.


----------



## FredA

motberg said:


> very interesting the reports of excellent sound quality using coax.... maybe you can consider give this a try to see if solves the problem and perhaps helps coax surpass USB..I have/had many iFi products and all are obviously well engineered. I believe  musicdirect offers a probationary period  so no risk....
> https://ifi-audio.com/products/spdif-ipurifier2/


I expect that the new fw will fix this. But anyway, i rarely use the spdif input. I will consider the ifi if things are not sorted out. My spdif cable perhaps has an issue. But i am under the impression the spdif was maybe impremented with too good of a transport, or has some issue, cause quite a few reported glitches with it. So time will tell.


----------



## iFi audio

FredA said:


> I expect that the new fw will fix this. But anyway, i rarely use the spdif input. I will consider the ifi if things are not sorted out. My spdif cable perhaps has an issue. But i am under the impression the spdif was maybe impremented with too good of a transport, or has some issue, cause quite a few reported glitches with it. So time will tell.



If I were you I would most likely wait for a new FW too, but I'd consider something like iPurifier to possibly squeeze extra performance out of SPDIF.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jun 24, 2020)

Hi guys I got my DI-20 today (90/98M edition), and it's not working with my Chord Qutest DAC via BNC coax!  I'm connecting with a standard BNC cable from the DI-20 to the input of the Qutest DAC, which is the only shared connection type between the two. More specifically it's routed from from the "ACSS" type "S/PDIF out" section of the DI-20 to the BNC input 1 of the Qutest DAC, using a "Belden 1695A SDI Cable" (BNC). It's the same BNC cable with the same BNC input that works to the Qutest via the Singxer SU-1 DDC with no problem which I've again re-tested to work.

Other troubleshooting I've done: I confirmed I can hear audio from the DI-20 connected to my iFi Micro iDSD Black Label DAC via "STD" type "S/PDIF OUT" (regular RCA coax) to that DAC. Confirmed the Amanero driver is installed on my PC; I also got a message saying the newest one was already installed when trying to update it. Tried connecting to BNC input 2 on the Qutest. Tried toggling the input type button on the Qutest. Tried toggling between Parallel and Series mode on the DI-20. Tried connecting directly from the PC via USB, also tried via iFi iPurifier USB, and via Schiit Wyrd. Confirmed that my BNC cable is rated for 75 Ohms, as well as that both the DI-20 BNC output and the Qutest BNC input are 75 Ohms as well. Tried resetting both the DI-20 and the DAC.

Something a bit strange may have occurred however. If I remember correctly, the initial time connecting the BNC cable from the DI-20 to the Qutest I got a red light on the Qutest indicating connectivity, however after maybe 10-60 seconds, this red light never returned, no matter how many times I retried the connection and reset both units. I even made sure the red light is still coming on the DAC connected the same way to the SU-1, and even reversing the cable but to no avail. Something I haven't done was to update the DI-20 firmware but I'm assuming it came shipped with the newest version. Advice would be helpful. Thanks...


----------



## MrPretty

DecentLevi said:


> Hi guys I got my DI-20 today (90/98M edition), and it's not working with my Chord Qutest DAC via BNC coax!  I'm connecting with a standard BNC cable from the DI-20 to the input of the Qutest DAC, which is the only shared connection type between the two. More specifically it's routed from from the "ACSS" type "S/PDIF out" section of the DI-20 to the BNC input 1 of the Qutest DAC, using a "Belden 1695A SDI Cable" (BNC). It's the same BNC cable with the same BNC input that works to the Qutest via the Singxer SU-1 DDC with no problem which I've again re-tested to work.
> 
> Other troubleshooting I've done: I confirmed I can hear audio from the DI-20 connected to my iFi Micro iDSD Black Label DAC via "STD" type "S/PDIF OUT" (regular RCA coax) to that DAC. Confirmed the Amanero driver is installed on my PC; I also got a message saying the newest one was already installed when trying to update it. Tried connecting to BNC input 2 on the Qutest. Tried toggling the input type button on the Qutest. Tried toggling between Parallel and Series mode on the DI-20. Tried connecting directly from the PC via USB, also tried via iFi iPurifier USB, and via Schiit Wyrd. Confirmed that my BNC cable is rated for 75 Ohms, as well as that both the DI-20 BNC output and the Qutest BNC input are 75 Ohms as well. Tried resetting both the DI-20 and the DAC.
> 
> Something a bit strange may have occurred however. If I remember correctly, the initial time connecting the BNC cable from the DI-20 to the Qutest I got a red light on the Qutest indicating connectivity, however after maybe 10-60 seconds, this red light never returned, no matter how many times I retried the connection and reset both units. I even made sure the red light is still coming on the DAC connected the same way to the SU-1, and even reversing the cable but to no avail. Something I haven't done was to update the DI-20 firmware but I'm assuming it came shipped with the newest version. Advice would be helpful. Thanks...


Isn't ACSS a propriety connection for connection to Audio-GD DACs?  Have you tried connecting the standard S/PDIF connection from the DI-20 to your Qutest like you did with your iFi Micro?


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## DecentLevi (Jun 24, 2020)

Thanks @MrPretty
Well I've definitely established the DI-20 outputs audio by the standard RCA coax method anyway. For the Qutest DAC, it has only USB, Toslink and two BNC coax inputs. The BNC connection being the only common connection between the two and this type on the DI-20 basically being proprietary, the only way would in theory to use as coax cable with RCA coax for the DI-20 side and BNC for the Qutest DAC side like this:

I wonder if this would cause any longterm issues with either the DDC or DAC, and moreover if I would be getting even close to the full potential of the DI-20? Because I read on their manual that the AACS output  of the DI-20 _applies the 2nd generation coaxial ACSS technology, which offers even further reduced signal degradation and better sound quality over a coaxial cable. _

I've heard that this connection method may be doable with other applications at least... so now does anyone have any advice on a quality source for such a cable?


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## motberg

DecentLevi said:


> Thanks @MrPretty
> Well I've definitely established the DI-20 outputs audio by the standard RCA coax method anyway. For the Qutest DAC, it has only USB, Toslink and two BNC coax inputs. The BNC connection being the only common connection between the two and this type on the DI-20 basically being proprietary, the only way would in theory to use as coax cable with RCA coax for the DI-20 side and BNC for the Qutest DAC side like this:
> 
> I wonder if this would cause any longterm issues with either the DDC or DAC, and moreover if I would be getting even close to the full potential of the DI-20? Because I read on their manual that the AACS output  of the DI-20 _applies the 2nd generation coaxial ACSS technology, which offers even further reduced signal degradation and better sound quality over a coaxial cable. _
> ...



I have been wondering about this connection also, I have seen it mentioned many times. I just noticed this looks pretty good
https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-bnc-to-rca-coaxial-cable-digital
and I have seen adapters mentioned also
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RCAadapter--pro-co-bnc-to-rca-spdif-adapter

It may take Kingwa a little to analyse your problem with the new ACSS SPDIF - I think the DI-20 is the first product using this.


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## FredA (Jun 24, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> Thanks @MrPretty
> Well I've definitely established the DI-20 outputs audio by the standard RCA coax method anyway. For the Qutest DAC, it has only USB, Toslink and two BNC coax inputs. The BNC connection being the only common connection between the two and this type on the DI-20 basically being proprietary, the only way would in theory to use as coax cable with RCA coax for the DI-20 side and BNC for the Qutest DAC side like this:
> 
> I wonder if this would cause any longterm issues with either the DDC or DAC, and moreover if I would be getting even close to the full potential of the DI-20? Because I read on their manual that the AACS output  of the DI-20 _applies the 2nd generation coaxial ACSS technology, which offers even further reduced signal degradation and better sound quality over a coaxial cable. _
> ...


The acss is not garanteed to work with all dacs. It depends on the input level the dac input needs and on the nominal impedance of it, which has to be 75ohms.


----------



## iFi audio

MrPretty said:


> Have you tried connecting the standard S/PDIF connection from the DI-20 to your Qutest like you did with your iFi Micro?



Other DAC connected in the same way is what I'd suggest.


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## DecentLevi

iFi audio said:


> Other DAC connected in the same way is what I'd suggest.





DecentLevi said:


> Thanks @MrPretty
> Well I've definitely established the DI-20 outputs audio by the standard RCA coax method anyway. For the Qutest DAC, it has only USB, Toslink and two BNC coax inputs. The BNC connection being the only common connection between the two and this type on the DI-20 basically being proprietary, the only way would in theory to use as coax cable with RCA coax for the DI-20 side and BNC for the Qutest DAC side like this:
> 
> I wonder if this would cause any longterm issues with either the DDC or DAC, and moreover if I would be getting even close to the full potential of the DI-20? Because I read on their manual that the AACS output  of the DI-20 _applies the 2nd generation coaxial ACSS technology, which offers even further reduced signal degradation and better sound quality over a coaxial cable. _
> ...


My main DAC (Chord Qutest) doesn't have RCA coax input and the only common connection is BNC which seems a proprietary connection on the DI-20. Any other opinions on if a RCA coax from the DI-20 to BNC input on the Qutest DAC would be recommended? Both the DI-20 and the DAC are rated at 75 Ohms, but it seems to be that the Qutest DAC's coaxial input may have a built-in transformer that causes it not to be compatible with the DI-20's BNC output with special ACSS 2nd gen. technology. This is what I gathered from talking to Kingwa and from the manual. But he hasn't gotten back to me after asking if the RCA to BNC method would work. I'm assuming that since only the BNC / ACSS output of the DI-20 uses this special technology that its' RCA coax output may be compatible with the BNC input of the Qutest DAC even though it may have a built-in transformer (no way to find out I guess?)

For the above recommendations, I'm leaning towards a straight RCA to BNC cable, sighting possible loss of purity using an adapter, unless anyone has another opinion? Thanks


----------



## FredA

DecentLevi said:


> My main DAC (Chord Qutest) doesn't have RCA coax input and the only common connection is BNC which seems a proprietary connection on the DI-20. Any other opinions on if a RCA coax from the DI-20 to BNC input on the Qutest DAC would be recommended? Both the DI-20 and the DAC are rated at 75 Ohms, but it seems to be that the Qutest DAC's coaxial input may have a built-in transformer that causes it not to be compatible with the DI-20's BNC output with special ACSS 2nd gen. technology. This is what I gathered from talking to Kingwa and from the manual. But he hasn't gotten back to me after asking if the RCA to BNC method would work. I'm assuming that since only the BNC / ACSS output of the DI-20 uses this special technology that its' RCA coax output may be compatible with the BNC input of the Qutest DAC even though it may have a built-in transformer (no way to find out I guess?)
> 
> For the above recommendations, I'm leaning towards a straight RCA to BNC cable, sighting possible loss of purity using an adapter, unless anyone has another opinion? Thanks


I would go with a rca ro bnc cable. Or with an adaptor. Should work fine, i would favor the former, but the most important is the quality of the cable.


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## newabc (Jun 24, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> My main DAC (Chord Qutest) doesn't have RCA coax input and the only common connection is BNC which seems a proprietary connection on the DI-20.



I don't think the ACSS SPDIF is not compatible to most of the SPDIF inputs. My ref-5 dac was produced in 2013(It has the original firmware from the factory till now.) and at that time there was no such an ACSS SPDIF thing(SPDIF is a digital standard, but the Audio-gd ACSS in 2013 was for analog signal only.). Both RCA and BNC sockets as the SPDIF inputs on ref-5 are the same things. And I use the ACSS SPDIF of DI-20 to the ref-5 only.

BTW, I think a RCA-to-BNC coaxial cable based on Canare will work fine. But be careful for the termination, some cable sellers indicate there are real 75ohm termination and other usual so-so coaxial cables.


----------



## motberg

Anyone have recommendations for  ACSS SPDIF  cable length ? Would 1.5M still be optimal?
That would be cool to get i2s sound quality up to PCM 384K at 1.5M.... !!


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## newabc

For the SPDIF coaxial cables, the non-75ohm termination cables should be more than 1.5 meters. But for the real 75ohm termination, I think 1 meter length should be fine. (Kingwa is selling 1 meter long SPDIF coaxial cables based on the Canare cables on his website.)


----------



## Wynnytsky

Been running the Morion clock from queensland (st petersburg - 2008) for 6 hours using a 45cm rg223 recommended by @FredA 

I've always felt the r2r7's weakest link were the highs and I feel this does much to address that.  I don't hear a color/footprint/signature like you would with a cable (no surprise there).  I am getting better PRAT, notes attack with more conviction suggesting more dynamics.  The most obvious effect of this box is that I'm sitting through entire songs (known good tracks I've already played to death as well as tracks I don't care for) without skipping or leaving my seat -- like a concert in a great venue -- the uniqueness of the live performance can hold your attention, even the pieces that aren't your cup of tea.

I accidentally used a 75ohm cable and the sound was like the Metrum Onyx -- conservative and distant.

so I guess the OXCO in my DI20HE is dormant -- seems like a wasted expense.  I was unsure if a clock was worth it given my DAC doesn't support it.  I've got no regrets.  And if you have a free 12v tap on your LPS then this is a what-are-you-waiting-for purchase.


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## DecentLevi

The mentions of non-75 ohm cables... is that for the external clock? If so, what kind of cable rating / termination type do those use? Because I think the RCA and BNC coax outputs are 75 ohm.


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## newabc (Jun 25, 2020)

DecentLevi said:


> The mentions of non-75 ohm cables... is that for the external clock? If so, what kind of cable rating / termination type do those use? Because I think the RCA and BNC coax outputs are 75 ohm.



No, most of the non-75ohm cables I mentioned above are the most common RCA SPDIF cables we can see everywhere. The 75ohm termination RCA/BNC SPDIF cables are usually tagged/mentioned with "75 ohm" or real/true 75 ohm by the sellers. By the way, the RCA or BNC heads for 75 ohm termination seem to have a much higher price than the normal ones if the seller mentions which RCA/BNC head he used and you can find out the bulk price of it.

The external clock cables for DI-20 should be terminated as 50ohm. I am using rg-400 BNC cables recommended by this thread.


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## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> Been running the Morion clock from queensland (st petersburg - 2008) for 6 hours using a 45cm rg223 recommended by @FredA
> 
> I've always felt the r2r7's weakest link were the highs and I feel this does much to address that.  I don't hear a color/footprint/signature like you would with a cable (no surprise there).  I am getting better PRAT, notes attack with more conviction suggesting more dynamics.  The most obvious effect of this box is that I'm sitting through entire songs (known good tracks I've already played to death as well as tracks I don't care for) without skipping or leaving my seat -- like a concert in a great venue -- the uniqueness of the live performance can hold your attention, even the pieces that aren't your cup of tea.
> 
> ...


Wait until you get an up-to-date r7. Having the old da7  boards and original tcxos is holding your dac back. What is great is the fact you can still get such an upgrade with this version. 

Even the new accusilicons are nowhere near a morion  Mv89a and still, a clear improvement can be heard using it only on the di20he.  My next purchase will be a r7he with external clock input.


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## DACLadder (Jun 25, 2020)

*** New DI-20 Firmware 3.93 - June 2020 ***

Kingwa has released new DI-20(HE) firmware (3.93).  He has been playing with his new Mutec Ref 10 external clock and has provided some positive enhancements.  He told me that 3.93 improves the sound quality with other 10M clocks as well.  And also enhancements to HDMI I2S internally or externally clocked. 
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm

I think we are starting another productive firmware period so if you want to wait there may (will) be others to try shortly. Kingwa is looking to further improve the timing of SPDIF outputs in another future release of firmware.  And I like the 3.93 firmware.  Clarity improves (less fuzz), soundstage, bass strong, mid-range texture..  Enjoy! (@Wynnytsky)


----------



## Jandu

DACLadder said:


> *** New DI-20 Firmware 3.93 - June 2020 ***
> 
> Kingwa has released new DI-20(HE) firmware (3.93).  He has been playing with his new Mutec Ref 10 external clock and has provided some positive enhancements.  He told me that 3.93 improves the sound quality with other 10M clocks as well.  And also enhancements to HDMI I2S internally or externally clocked.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
> ...



It also mentioned that the acceptable range of sine or square wave for the clock input has been expanded to 0.1 to 5 V.


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## smodtactical

Oh awesome. I really hope he can fix spdif with next firmware.

Btw anyone compare the pi2aes i2s out to DI20he i2s (with or without a streamer in front of it?)


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## smodtactical

What cable do you use to connect to the update port? They say usb but it is some other type of connection with 10 pins.


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## DACLadder (Jun 25, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> What cable do you use to connect to the update port? They say usb but it is some other type of connection with 10 pins.



The 10-pin Altera Blaster is connected to the update Port on the rear.  The Blaster is a USB to JTAG interface device.  Search Ebay “Altera USB Blaster”.

Don’t push the button near connector port.  You can erase the Amanero flash with the right sequence of button pushes and power cycles.


----------



## Toni-Mang

I had two days of comparing the ocxo 8663xs with a regulated psu and a decent cable to the internal clocks within two days of leaving the units on. I have issues with the soundstage, a slightly scewed and lean image in p and s mode with the ext clock...after a restard of the r8, the image is back again. For me the faster clocks sound more precise. with a better and more direct image...the ocxo sound is more layed back. i prefere the faster internal clocks... don't think, that the morion with square wave will change this. I am not able to reproduce the upgrade...neither with headphones nor on stage...


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## smodtactical

DACLadder said:


> The 10-pin Altera Blaster is connected to the update Port on the rear.  The Blaster is a USB to JTAG interface device.  Search Ebay “Altera USB Blaster”.
> 
> Don’t push the button near connector port.  You can erase the Amanero flash with the right sequence of button pushes and power cycles.



Ah damn thats annoying. For the price I paid I wish he included that module so I can do updates.


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## Jackula

smodtactical said:


> Ah damn thats annoying. For the price I paid I wish he included that module so I can do updates.



Check your original packaging if you still have it, he included one for me so I assume it's standard.

(I actually bought one off eBay before finding the one in my original box doh!).


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## newabc

I am using a Belden based BNC-BNC cable from DI-20 to ref-5 link
Based on this discussion thread link

A solid copper core is better than stranded occ. If you can find a solid silver core, it is much much better.

The RCA-RCA SPDIF cable, I am still using the Canare based 1.5m one from Kingwa.

For the Canare based SPDIF coaxial cables, you can try Ghent Audio or buy from Kingwa. Their prices are quite affordable and the termination quality is good.


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## Duncan_McCloud

I am disappointed that there is no toslink optical port. I found it to be great as it eliminates every interference from my PC to my DAC.


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## newabc (Jun 25, 2020)

I have seen a post in bbs.audio-gd.com years ago, comparing the coaxial and optical SPDIF inputs/outputs that the coaxial ones have much lesser jitters than the optical ones when the lengths are short, but for the longer connections over multiple meters, people should choose optical ones other than coaxial ones.


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## smodtactical

Jackula said:


> Check your original packaging if you still have it, he included one for me so I assume it's standard.
> 
> (I actually bought one off eBay before finding the one in my original box doh!).



Wow ok I'll check! Kingwa told me to buy off ebay though so I Assumed its not there?


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## Duncan_McCloud

newabc said:


> I have seen a post in bbs.audio-gd.com years ago, comparing the coaxial and optical SPDIF inputs/outputs that the coaxial ones have much lesser jitters than the optical ones when the lengths are short, but for the longer connections over multiple meters, people should choose optical ones other than coaxial ones.



Well, I don't think I will be able to hear jitter differences. The point is that if i use coax out of my pc, I hear interference. With Optical everything is fine. Would choose a Mutec 3+ USB, but it lacks I2S


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## nazhmd

DACLadder said:


> *** New DI-20 Firmware 3.93 - June 2020 ***
> 
> Kingwa has released new DI-20(HE) firmware (3.93).  He has been playing with his new Mutec Ref 10 external clock and has provided some positive enhancements.  He told me that 3.93 improves the sound quality with other 10M clocks as well.  And also enhancements to HDMI I2S internally or externally clocked.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
> ...



does the DI-20 update guide need to be updated? 
there is no alters 12.1 web edition to be downloaded. Please clarify.


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## Toni-Mang (Jun 26, 2020)

Imho the new Firmware is stable now in P mode...perfect soundstage, no shift.


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## DACLadder

nazhmd said:


> does the DI-20 update guide need to be updated?
> there is no alters 12.1 web edition to be downloaded. Please clarify.



That version of Quartus SW (12.1) is obsolete and most definitely all documentation needs to be updated.  On the Audio GD f/w download page, there is a OneDrive cloud link the download 16.0 Quarus PC software (or click below). Just choose 16.0 Quartus 64 or 32-bit version. Download and PC install. No license required. Be sure and answer ‘yes’ during installation to install USB drivers for the Blasters.  16.0 has more modern Windows ‘look‘ but functions basically the same as 12.1.  We are here to help. First time use setup is intimidating but ‘old pro‘ in no time.  
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1


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## nazhmd

DACLadder said:


> That version of Quartus SW (12.1) is obsolete and most definitely all documentation needs to be updated.  On the Audio GD f/w download page, there is a OneDrive cloud link the download 16.0 Quarus PC software (or click below). Just choose 16.0 Quartus 64 or 32-bit version. Download and PC install. No license required. Be sure and answer ‘yes’ during installation to install USB drivers for the Blasters.  16.0 has more modern Windows ‘look‘ but functions basically the same as 12.1.  We are here to help. First time use setup is intimidating but ‘old pro‘ in no time.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
> https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1


Thank you 🙏


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## jimmychan (Jun 27, 2020)

My two DI-20HE is updated last night.
SQ is improved.
SPDIF input and USB input's SQ is very close.
The SPDIF input with occasionally sound image shifted seems gone, still need more test.
I have issues with SPDIF input when using internal clock. The sound is choppy when sampling rate is 48K & its multiples. However its OK when using External Clock.

Thanks Kingwa for all his work. My Reference 1 (i2s in mod) with DI-20HE is still serving me very well. The other DI-20HE connects to my R7.


----------



## Genna

Hello, after replaced the USB cable between the streamer and DI-20HE with a 5N silver solidcore USB cable with JSSG360 shielding, I give a order for both ACSS cables with the same cable and shielding. Today I received the mini XLR, the 4. pin XLR is unclear





Now I have the question how is the 4. pin of the XLR ACSS connected? Adding a 4. cable?

Many thanks in advance!


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## JaMo (Jun 27, 2020)

XLR stands for  X= Shield, L= Line (+), R= Return (-)

Audio-GD's ACSS 4 pin XLR's use pin 4 as an additional shield So... pin 1 Sheild, pin 2 Line (+), pin 3 Return (-), pin 4 Shield.
No forth cable. Just bridge pin 1 and pin 4.
/Jan


----------



## DACLadder

I you dislike programming the FPGA wait a while as there will be other versions coming soon... SPDIF input glitch, SPDIF output timing, and external clock bugs addressed.


----------



## jimmychan

I have just tested 3.96 & 3.98, that both has no sound with SPDIF input.
I fall back to 3.93, SPDIF input works ok with Ext. Clock.


----------



## FredA

Firmware 3.98 is out. 

Too soon to make a definitive call on it but the spdif gltich i had seems gone, yeah! 

Also, using the external clock with 3.93 in parallel mode, there was a lack of punch, and the soundstage had shrunk, now things seems to have gone back to normal while the resolution gain of 3.9 seems to remain.  Maybe still not as punchy, i have to listen more and under better conditions, it is noisy now in my room. 

Too early for champagne but so far, things look great. The di20he has such a good architecture that further future enhancements are likely.


----------



## DACLadder

Yes, there is newer firmware today.  Kingwa is releasing faster that we can test.  YMMV 

What I found..
3.93 - Several of us are having issue with USB input, external clock, and parallel data mode.  Sound level is lower and not dynamic comparing to serial mode or previous 3.9a.
3.98 - SPDIF input - dropouts especially in parallel data mode.  USB input/ parallel mode/ ext. clock sounds better than 3.93.  

Kingwa is going to be busy when he returns from holiday.  And please report bugs to Kingwa.


----------



## FredA

The cymbals with both 3.93 and 3.98 are the cleanest i have heard in my room


----------



## Wynnytsky

My case from queensland had no feet, so I put 2 in the front and 1 in the back





I used the brass cap nuts that come with your standard indoor or outdoor wall sconce




bottom view




as shallow as these heads are, they still make contact with the circuit board so you should file them down a bit and cover with scotch tape (black tape won't slide as easy if it makes contact)



also, the slots that guide the circuit board aren't snug enough.  If you shake the case you can feel the board oscillating.  Maybe apply scotch tape to the sides, and slice it open with an exacto blade.

and these are your tools




I was amazed by how hot the morion block get's, and the case get's hot with only air as a conductor.


----------



## motberg

Some nice comments concerning the DI-20 (from an upgraded Terminator user) within the first paragraph here....

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips5/


----------



## rsbrsvp

Would those who have upgraded to 3.98 recommend the upgrade or would they recommend to wait?

It seems like it is not clear the upgrade is sonically superior....


----------



## FredA

There is increased res when using an external clock. Some improvment were made to enhance the compatibility of the spdif inputs with sources or lesser quality. It fixed a glitch i had with it. 

But there will be additional fixes and a 3.99. Maybe other versions after too, there are some small issues recently introduced that need to be fixed.


----------



## DACLadder (Jun 28, 2020)

3.98 is great sounding in external clock mode/ USB in/ I2S out.  It has several bugs and will soon be replaced.  If you like what you have wait a while.  I don’t think 3.99 will be the last firmware... I just have that feeling in my bones as the say.  But 3.98 sounds better than all previous firmware in the configuration I am using.  Very encouraging things to come.

Has anyone tested SPDIF outputs with 3.98?  Timing was supposedly optimized for SPDIF in this version.  I haven’t tested internal clocks either.  or DSD.


----------



## FredA

Listening to aes/ebu now. Very analog, a tad more, a bit less bass. Comparable to i2s, very similar.


----------



## FredA

Spoke too fast. As bassy. Very enjoyable, maybe even better than i2s. I will have to do some serious a/b comparisons to tell which sounds better.


----------



## FredA

I2s is a little  cleaner and a little more resolved. A bit less analog. I still prefer i2s.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ever since I added the external clock my bass has been on an upswing, and either the unit is breaking in or these firmware updates are pushing it even further.  I found a 2lbs block of aluminum in my friend's workshop and put that on top of the clock.


----------



## FredA

I have put foam  underneath mine and a 1-2 pound block of acrylic on top. The vima caps i added 2 weeks ago on the 12v pin helped, they gave a small upgrade. I had to use extension wires cause there is no space near where the caps are applied. I used a 0.01 and a 0.1uF. I bought the 600v versions by accident, they are huge. But they have better specs so not a bad thing.


----------



## Zachik

Wynnytsky said:


> I found a 2lbs block of aluminum in my friend's workshop and put that on top of the clock.





FredA said:


> I used a 0.01 and a 0.1uF. I bought the 600v versions by accident, they are huge.


Good thing you guys are not going overboard...


----------



## FredA

Zachik said:


> Good thing you guys are not going overboard...


We are being very raisonable. No crazy expense. But jokes aside, vibration control and power filtering are very important with ocxos.


----------



## dacver

FredA said:


> We are being very raisonable. No crazy expense. But jokes aside, vibration control and power filtering are very important with ocxos.


Hi Fred
I’ve been outdated for a while and read most of this forum and inquire the queen seller about the external clock mv89A and he only have 2007 available. What do you think about this? I never used ext. clock before and no idea.


----------



## rsbrsvp

3.98 = more resolution.  Otherwise- sounds the same to me.

Worthy upgrade.


----------



## jimmychan

After I tried many time flashing 3.93 & 3.98 back and forth. 3.98 still give me problem on SPDIF input with no sounds whether P/S mode or Int. Ext. clock.

Now I have to run 3.93 with Ext. Clock.


----------



## FredA (Jun 29, 2020)

dacver said:


> Hi Fred
> I’ve been outdated for a while and read most of this forum and inquire the queen seller about the external clock mv89A and he only have 2007 available. What do you think about this? I never used ext. clock before and no idea.


That the price should be lower and that you will still an upgrade from it. Ask Queen for how much you loose quality compared to the 2008. You can negociate based on that. In any case, it is reassuring to see there is not an infinite stock of it.

Seems like queensland has a 2008 mv89a ocxo (just the crystal) up for sale by the way. An open box brand new unit. I don't know what to think of this. Don't pay too much is my best advice. He is asking 220$ for it. He sure can put it on a pcb and the pcb inside a chassis for 100$ more.


----------



## FredA

jimmychan said:


> After I tried many time flashing 3.93 & 3.98 back and forth. 3.98 still give me problem on SPDIF input with no sounds whether P/S mode or Int. Ext. clock.
> 
> Now I have to run 3.93 with Ext. Clock.


There will be subsequent versions. You should report this to Kingwa.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@dacver maybe ask the queen if he could use these parts instead (Fred's links)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DIY-Full-A...reamp-box-PSU-chassis-155x106x55/231689311632
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Alumi...solation-Stand-Feet-Pads-for-DAC/274288040386

He gave me the same dimension case, but without a pretty faceplate (or feet) so it looks like it belongs on the floor.


----------



## dacver

Wynnytsky said:


> @dacver maybe ask the queen if he could use these parts instead (Fred's links)
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DIY-Full-A...reamp-box-PSU-chassis-155x106x55/231689311632
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Alumi...solation-Stand-Feet-Pads-for-DAC/274288040386
> ...


Thank you! I will ask now.


----------



## dacver (Jun 29, 2020)

FredA said:


> That the price should be lower and that you will still an upgrade from it. Ask Queen for how much you loose quality compared to the 2008. You can negociate based on that. In any case, it is reassuring to see there is not an infinite stock of it.
> 
> Seems like queensland has a 2008 mv89a ocxo (just the crystal) up for sale by the way. An open box brand new unit. I don't know what to think of this. Don't pay too much is my best advice. He is asking 220$ for it. He sure can put it on a pcb and the pcb inside a chassis for 100$ more.


This he say:  What I'm offering you is 2007, because 2008 and 2009 are sold out. The updated years represent higher prices, but they end up with the same effect. In short, you get the same excellent product .
He also offer me the new 2008 with extra 120$. 

With the comparison question I ask.
He said: There is no exact answer to this question. It is necessary to have a special agency test their actual phase noise to make a comparison. At present, all the customers who have bought this project have chosen the second-hand MV89A, and they are very satisfied with the project.

There won't be a big difference. The new price is twice as much as the second-hand one 

I think I'll go with the 2007.


----------



## FredA

dacver said:


> This he say:  What I'm offering you is 2007, because 2008 and 2009 are sold out. The updated years represent higher prices, but they end up with the same effect. In short, you get the same excellent product .
> He also offer me the new 2008 with extra 120$.
> 
> With the comparison question I ask.
> ...


Good idea. The real next step up IMO is a ref-10 anyway. I assume the 2008 only has a small advantage. 

I will wait for the ref-10. Who knows, Kingwa may buy a batch of Morion (they have - 120dB @1hz crystals) and apply the HE recipe to it. It is small market will few players but making a clock unit is not rocket science. You needs to achieve a noise level for ultimate performance that is barely measurable.


----------



## DACLadder (Jun 29, 2020)

External clocking is turning out so well that Kingwa should consider a 10MHE clock.  At a lower price than Mutec or Cybershaft.  The super performing OCXOs are most likely $2K in price by themselves.  Have 2 models -.  mid-level and high end.

I am testing 3.99 today and is sounding very good with SPDIF input.  Also USB input as well.  Still a few bugs to address and Kingwa wants to add DoP capability over SPDIF.  So we are not finish but very encouraging.  Thankfully Kingwa hasn't released 3.99 to give us time to test.  If anyone would like to try 3.99 just PM me.  3.98 has a serious bug where the USB source does not always detect the Amanero board upon boot up.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Mac Mini- DI-20HE- HE7- HE-9- SUSVARA/LCD-4/ABYSS TC with pure silver OCC cables throughout (no copper cable in between any of my components at all) along with a Mutec SE-120 Ref 10 = more resolution by far than I have ever heard in any other stereo system. And it is all non-fatiguing........

I truly cannot imagine ANY other upgrade within the bounds of a headphone system which could exceed by any appreciable amount the detail retrieval and sonic bliss of this system at any price.....


----------



## DACLadder (Jun 29, 2020)

@rsbrsvp  It will only get better in the near future. Kingwa is starting with the DI20 firmware, getting that optimized, and then moving on to the R7 2020 firmware. 

Even with the regular, Accusilicon clocked R7 and base Ref 10 my system has never sounded better by a long, long shot.   My next DAC will surely be an HE version with external clock capability.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jun 29, 2020)

I believe it will get better with firmware updates- but not "appreciable better".  It is already to good to believe..


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Who knows, Kingwa may buy a batch of Morion



I can see where this is going.  Kingwa will roll out gear wired up with the vintage Morions.  Once they're sold into extinction he'll build his own clock based on the half life of some radioactive element, at which point his DACs will triple in weight to shield us from radiation.


----------



## jimmychan (Jun 29, 2020)

I have just tried the 3.99. Its very interesting, the SDPIF input still has no sound on i2s out.
Once I fall back to 3.93, things become normal.
I have two SPDIF sources to try, a rpi3 with hat that can output SPDIF, secondly a DI-V3 SPDIF out.


----------



## Wynnytsky

anybody know what 3.993 is?

I'm tempted to hold off till he gets to the five nines -- that's supposed to be the best


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> anybody know what 3.993 is?
> 
> I'm tempted to hold off till he gets to the five nines -- that's supposed to be the best


3.993, as stated, is 3.99 with bug fixes. For one, dsd256 would not play on my setup, now it is fine.


----------



## DACLadder

I just found 3.993 this morning with no explanation other than here it is and give it a try.  SPDIF input is an issue on some DI's so will try that this morning with 3.993.

Kingwa released yesterday's 3.99 on the AGD web site.
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm


----------



## jimmychan

Version 3.99 at least has issue on my two DIs. SPDIF in no sound. Version 3.93 is normal.


----------



## FredA

jimmychan said:


> Version 3.99 at least has issue on my two DIs. SPDIF in no sound. Version 3.93 is normal.


Try 3.993. It's in the 3.99 rar file. 

Cables are good?


----------



## DACLadder

I think 3.993 is just bug fix attempts perhaps.  Kingwa just said "here it is and give it a try".

SPDIF input in parallel mode has always been an issue on my DI20HE. Switching to serial seemed more stable.  3.99 played OK (parallel mode) with only two minor dropouts in 2 hrs of testing.  3.993 SPDIF input parallel mode does play on my DI20HE (parallel mode) so will run this for several hours to test.  I have the Singxer SU-1 drving SPDIF input.


----------



## Oepsie

I’m on 4,5 weeks burn in and my unit (90/98 version) has taken a big step forward from being somewhat edgy with (too much) openness in the midrange (resulting i mild ear pains after 10 minutes of listening) towards a much more balanced and natural presentation with the bass impact being slighty less (in a good way as it was too much before).

It is quite strange how the sound changes during burn in. Hoping so much that this is a permanent step in the right direction and that the edgyness will be gone permanently.. fingers crossed


----------



## DACLadder

@Oepsie  Yes it does take a while to burn in.  Probably 700 - 1000 hrs.  Good things will evolve slowly.


----------



## FredA

The first 350 hours can be a bit painful cause sound quality varies much. After that, it will improve slowly up to 1000h.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Oepsie said:


> with the bass impact being slighty less (in a good way as it was too much before).
> ...
> and that the edgyness will be gone permanently.. fingers crossed


oh I remember the first couple of days when the bass was overblown (or more likely my treble didn't wake up yet)

What's your DAC?


----------



## Oepsie

An electrocompaniet ecd-1. So an old one with little filtering..


----------



## Wynnytsky

Oepsie said:


> An electrocompaniet ecd-1. So an old one with little filtering..


what chip/s in it?


----------



## DACLadder (Jun 30, 2020)

I’m enjoying 3.993 f/w. USB in/ I2S out/ parallel mode, int. or ext. clock.  I’m getting much less grain/ glare.  First thought the f/w had less highs but it is just less junk.  More depth... spooky compared with 3.99 yesterday.  Large space.  Bass is thundering as well. Worth a try if curious!


----------



## Wynnytsky

I don't know what it's like for others but when I engage my clock (w/ di20he 3.993 only) the dynamics rise to the point where I think I'm listening to a delta sigma dac.  Though it's a little drier, it doesn't exhibit that hard+thin sound that is so typical of delta sigma implementations.


----------



## FredA

Yes, i think i prefered 3.99. Or 3.98. Good sound with 3.993 but i could use some syrup. Some meat. Bacon in  maple syrup, just bits. And just a little syrup.


----------



## Toni-Mang

DI-20V4.07Beta1 is out...


----------



## DACLadder

Yes it sure is...  4.07beta1 adds DoP 64 capability to SPDIF output.   To use the capability you will need DoP firmware on your DAC.  
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm


----------



## rsbrsvp

4.07 is the best so far sonically- period.  NO SYRUP for me.  This is the ultimate in transparency and resolution with the absolute minimum coloration I have yet to hear......

I LIKE IT!!!


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> 4.07 is the best so far sonically- period.  NO SYRUP for me.  This is the ultimate in transparency and resolution with the absolute minimum coloration I have yet to hear......
> 
> I LIKE IT!!!


Me too.. It is a little smoother than 3.993 and seems even more resolved. So far so good.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Here is where things are really getting confusing for me:

Firmware improvements are providing more and more transparency and resolution and I find the internal clocks are partially catching up to the external.

This most recent firmware release improves resolution when using both internal and external clocks- but to my ears the internal clocks are getting a bigger jump from the firmware upgrades relative to the Mutec.  No question- the bottom line performance of the external clock is still superior- but that superiority is proportionally less with this latest release making a large investment in a super-clock less and less desirable.  All this is just IMHO.


----------



## DACLadder

SPDIF input is working very well for me with 4.07b1.  One hour of playback and no glitches.  That is first time since owning the DI20HE (November 2019).  Sound quality excellent as well.

I'll attempt DoP over SPDIF in a few hours.  And internal clocks.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Here is where things are really getting confusing for me:
> 
> Firmware improvements are providing more and more transparency and resolution and I find the internal clocks are partially catching up to the external.
> 
> This most recent firmware release improves resolution when using both internal and external clocks- but to my ears the internal clocks are getting a bigger jump from the firmware upgrades relative to the Mutec.  No question- the bottom line performance of the external clock is still superior- but that superiority is proportionally less with this latest release making a large investment in a super-clock less and less desirable.  All this is just IMHO.


Same here. I think I prefer the internal with old records.


----------



## DACLadder

Sound quality is not as exaggerated with 4.07b1 compared to 3.993.  Very liquid even on SPDIF input.  The best yet!


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> SPDIF input is working very well for me with 4.07b1.  One hour of playback and no glitches.  That is first time since owning the DI20HE (November 2019).  Sound quality excellent as well.
> 
> I'll attempt DoP over SPDIF in a few hours.  And internal clocks.


But with recent and very well recorded tracks, the external has better bass and precise imaging. Still worth it IMO.

Anyone else with a whistling sound while switching from internal to external? Annoying..


----------



## DACLadder (Jul 1, 2020)

DSD 64 does not play for me USB input, I2S output. Int/ ext clocks. Garbled noise.  4.07b1

Fred, before attempting DSD I switched internal/ external clock and did not hear a whistles.  But I know what you are talking about.  Had whistles last week when I booted up with 3.9.  Had to power cycle everything to get rid of it.


----------



## rsbrsvp

The internal clocks have a fuller sound with a bit less pinpoint detail than external but with nearly identical transparency.

I need more time to let my ears adjust to both.

For certain I can say anyone with a DI-20HE with the latest firmware and R-7HE 2020 with solid silver IC's and HDMI is getting at least 90% of the best front end that there is for around $5000.  To get that last jump to 100% is going to be costly.  I know;  I did it...


----------



## FredA

Pr.cyc


rsbrsvp said:


> The internal clocks have a fuller sound with a bit less pinpoint detail than external but with nearly identical transparency.
> 
> I need more time to let my ears adjust to both.
> 
> For certain I can say anyone with a DI-20HE with the latest firmware and R-7HE 2020 with solid silver IC's and HDMI is getting at least 90% of the best front end that there is for around $5000.  To get that last jump to 100% is going to be costly.  I know;  I did it...


What have you done? 

@DACLadder Power cycling did not fix it. Maybe i should power cycle the dac too.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I bought an expensive external clock..


----------



## DACLadder

@FredA. Yes, I think it was the DAC reboot that cured my whistle issue.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I bought an expensive external clock..


K. Got it.


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> @FredA. Yes, I think it was the DAC reboot that cured my whistle issue.


Thanks Scott. Sonicalily, 4.07b is less forgiving then 3.9 but the best yet.


----------



## DACLadder

There are still bugs.  @FredA, prepping for DoP testing I get a whistle on IN3.  I don’t use IN3 but it is a solid whistle when selecting IN5 down to IN1.

I first connected the Blaster to the R7 to verify I had DoP fitmware.  And power cycled the DAC afterward.


----------



## DACLadder

DSD 64 seems to work over DI20HE SPDIF to IN1 on the R7 DAC.  Get a loud pop when returning to PCM playback.

I no longer have whistle on IN3 and did not reboot after DoP testing.  ??


----------



## Toni-Mang

I am not able to get an advance of the external clock. Maybe the 8663 is not as good. But some of you mentioned, that this clock, with a good cable and a very good regulated psu beats the internal clocks by far. I still get the largest soundstage with pinpoint imaging with the internal clocks and s mode, not p. 
Independent of the firmware (actual 3.99). I have no relevant dsd files. And the best thing is, the ddc sounds not edgy or sharp, just right.
What i can tell from the already burned in di20he is, that it is a great peace of gear, and the firmware development makes a lot of fun to try out....i keep playing arround...


----------



## FredA

Kingwa just mentioned to me he used only the internal clocks to tune the current beta. So improvments for the external clock are to be expected soon.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> First thought the f/w had less highs but it is just less junk.


I get the same impression when I switch from internal to external, and that gives the bass more room to stand out.  This is a godsend for my r2r7 -- it allows for comfortable listening at volume levels that used to punish.  In fact I'm so used to junk in the treble that it's become my benchmark, and when I hear a good vinyl rig I sense it's somehow deficient in the treble.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I do not have nor have I ever had with any firmware any dropouts or any technical issues with my DI in either "S" or "P" mode.  I do however only use USB input.

However- EVERY time I upgrade the firmware- my Amanero driver disappears from my computer and I need to refresh it onto my DI for it to reappear.

Don't know why- but it is no big deal to do......


----------



## Wynnytsky

rsbrsvp said:


> I do not have nor have I ever had with any firmware any dropouts or any technical issues with my DI in either "S" or "P" mode. I do however only use USB input.



yeah same here

Kingwa's site should have a section that allows us to login and register our serial numbers, then report the behavior of our purchases (good and band) over time.  Patterns would be more obvious and addressed sooner.  Imagine if he traced problems back to one engineer who was sabotaging the line whom he hired cause she's so pretty but turns out to be an agent of the US gov!


----------



## DACLadder

4.07b1 f/w - I retested SPDIF input with the Singxer SU-6 and 352k and 384k sampling rates work OK.  My SU-1 is old and probably needs an update.  Actually I need to sell it!

Internal clocks sound really good with 4.07b1.  We'll ride internal today.


----------



## Toni-Mang

The FW Port on the back is a real upgrade...against 14-16 screws on the "older" DACs....
I think, the burn in development of the internal clocks is very relevant...i keep the unit powerd on 24*7 and it might be a mixed of better firmware and stbilisation.
The DI20HE and the PS Audio PWT are closed now. The PWT has still a slightly more procise soundstage.but the bass and dephts is closed...the U16 was not at eye level imho.


----------



## DACLadder

The internal clocks, Accusilicon, need plenty of time to run in.  I burned in 3 DACs and DI20HE with Accusillicons and they all took 4-6 weeks to fully blossom (24/7).  The DI20HE was a small 'let down' when new out-of-the-box.  But slowly eclipsed all other DDCs in my hoard.  So be patient with new DI20s.


----------



## DACLadder

SPDIF input, internal clocked DI20HE is providing excellent sound quality (4.07b1).  Internal clocks are rivaling 10M today.  Will be interesting to compare to external when Kingwa gets that fixed up. 

Still amazing to me that slight changes on the DI20HE make profound difference with the regular R7.  I guess garbage in = garbage out.  My system has so much resolution that changes are easy to identify that something has changed.


----------



## DACLadder

Kingwa is taking a few days off and will address firmware issues again on Monday.  I have a holiday as well this weekend.  

Listening to internal clocks today is a nice experience and haven’t heard in a few months.  Super clean highs, neutral, good sound.  I just enjoy the ‘musical’ external clock‘s rhythm (bass), mid-range, and space/separation.  Electric guitars, cellos, vocals are richer external. Too bad 10M requires every component to be superior quality but fun to try if you get the right combo of parts.  Ask a friend if you can borrow a decent clock!!  But I can understand being underwhelmed or just prefer internal clocks.

10M may be a faze anyway in basic consumer audio.  Who knows... in a few years oscillator technology will catch up. 10Ms could be cheaper and internal oscillators improved as well.


----------



## rsbrsvp

My external clock is superior to the internal even with the firmware updates- no question.  But- if I never tried the external clock- I would be very very happy- and it really would not matter.

Perhaps future firmware updates will change this perspective.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Also- the difference of internal and external on the DI-20 ONLY is not huge- but when also using external clock on R-7HE- the difference is much more appreciated- but still- not necessary...


----------



## jazzbug

Hi Eveyone,
I've got my 20HE burning in for 5 weeks already, it really makes massive difference. I'm still waiting blaster from eBay to try the new FW, cant't wait. 
I have been always using jRiver coz lots of SACD ISO, recently tried foobar2000, installed all nessacory components, seletected Amanero ISO DSD, but it just either outputed 2444 or erro message. My DAC limit is 24358 & DSD128.
Could any forumners help the foobar setting please?


----------



## Wynnytsky

jazzbug said:


> Hi Eveyone,
> I've got my 20HE burning in for 5 weeks already, it really makes massive difference. I'm still waiting blaster from eBay to try the new FW, cant't wait.
> I have been always using jRiver coz lots of SACD ISO, recently tried foobar2000, installed all nessacory components, seletected Amanero ISO DSD, but it just either outputed 2444 or erro message. My DAC limit is 24358 & DSD128.
> Could any forumners help the foobar setting please?



JRiver takes forever to learn but it really is worth it in the end.
It's DoP can go up to dsd256 and native bitstreaming can go up to dsd512.
it's so cheap I would still buy it, even if I didn't use it as my primary media player.
it's great as a utility for cleaning up music file names and meta data
it's DLNA server is great for sharing the music on your server with other DLNA compliant apps/devices
it's great for converting those unsupported formats (ex: ISO, APE) to something your other media player will support
or don't convert the files and instead configure it's DLNA server to convert certain file extensions to another format "on-the-fly"


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jul 3, 2020)

DacLadder,

Are you sure than Kingwa is planning to work on improving the firmware on the DI and R7 for external clock performance?

Because I have made a few minor adjustments in my system and I am currently (with 4.07b) finding the inner clocks almost as good as the external although I do need more time to confirm;- and if firmware does not improve external clock performance- I may be selling my external clock....  It is just way too expensive to be sitting around....


----------



## DACLadder

Kingwa said to me that he is optimizing code on the DI20 and then moving on to improve the R7 2020 DAC firmware.  I'm sure internals will improve along with external.    

I would not sell my clock at this moment.  Wait until the new DAC firmware (that actually works without bugs) then make that decision to sell.  SE120s are rare and you will have no problem selling it.  

Just my opinion but you may be wishing you did not sell if the new DAC firmware is stellar.  Unless someone offers you an amazing price of course.  You are very lucky to have the R7HE 2020 so you can judge for yourself.  I can't do that yet.  But the regular R7 sounds excellent with the DI externally clocked.  I may not like the DAC externally clocked.  Don't know until I try.


----------



## rsbrsvp

DACLadder said:


> Kingwa said to me that he is optimizing code on the DI20 and then moving on to improve the R7 2020 DAC firmware. I'm sure internals will improve along with external.
> 
> I would not sell my clock at this moment. Wait until the new DAC firmware (that actually works without bugs) then make that decision to sell. SE120s are rare and you will have no problem selling it.
> 
> Just my opinion but you may be wishing you did not sell if the new DAC firmware is stellar. Unless someone offers you an amazing price of course. You are very lucky to have the R7HE 2020 so you can judge for yourself. I can't do that yet. But the regular R7 sounds excellent with the DI externally clocked. I may not like the DAC externally clocked. Don't know until I try.




You better believe I am not rushing to sell my clock.  Just considering in the back of my head- no more.   Things are changing too fast at this point to know where we'll end up.  In addition- I find that often short turn listening may provide a certain perspective which after a bit of time- changes....


----------



## Wynnytsky

rsbrsvp said:


> short turn listening may provide a certain perspective which after a bit of time- changes....


That's the truth.  My brain will correct and acclimate to anything very quickly so that first impression is the very objective.

We need a f/w that will mine bit coins when idle - that would really help justify these purchases through uncertain times.  Maybe each time I power up I get a fortune cookie like "live music matters" in a Chinese marquee


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

DACLadder said:


> Kingwa said to me that he is optimizing code on the DI20 and then moving on to improve the R7 2020 DAC firmware.  I'm sure internals will improve along with external.
> 
> I would not sell my clock at this moment.  Wait until the new DAC firmware (that actually works without bugs) then make that decision to sell.  SE120s are rare and you will have no problem selling it.
> 
> Just my opinion but you may be wishing you did not sell if the new DAC firmware is stellar.  Unless someone offers you an amazing price of course.  You are very lucky to have the R7HE 2020 so you can judge for yourself.  I can't do that yet.  But the regular R7 sounds excellent with the DI externally clocked.  I may not like the DAC externally clocked.  Don't know until I try.


I would add my personal experience, DACLadder. My actual system is composed by an Auralic Aries G1, followed by a DI20HE feeding an R7HE 2020 "magnafied". All digital connections made with Wireworld platinum cables. Both audio gd gears connected to a regular Mutec ref 10 non SE 120.
I can surely say that the effect of external clock is stronger and more effective when operated on the DAC rather than with DI20. The sum of both is really remarkable. Now, playing with last DI20 firmwares, the effect can be more or less pronunciated, but ALWAYS in favor of external clock.
My idea is that in the near future, with new fw, situation can just be bettered. I do not think internal clock will ever completely reach the external option...I would never sell my clock, it is a reference that I will never stay without!
I can't wait to read your latest news from "the man" about new developments. The game is far from ended, I think.


----------



## DACLadder

@Il Cuffiotto  I am looking forward to trying a 10M capable DAC.  Very few reviews on the R7HE 2020 and thanks for the report.  

One thing Kingwa tells me is that the HE power supplies make the largest difference in sound improvement.  An externally clocked R7 2020 will not beat an internally clocked R7HE.  So I am saving up and will definitely get the HE power supplies. 10M is so tweaky that it makes sense to use the best power supplies.


----------



## Zachik

DACLadder said:


> One thing Kingwa tells me is that the HE power supplies make the largest difference in sound improvement.


I wonder if that is still true when powering the DI-20 (vs. HE) from a power regenerator (like the PS Audio P12)...


----------



## Jandu

rsbrsvp said:


> I do not have nor have I ever had with any firmware any dropouts or any technical issues with my DI in either "S" or "P" mode.  I do however only use USB input.
> 
> However- EVERY time I upgrade the firmware- my Amanero driver disappears from my computer and I need to refresh it onto my DI for it to reappear.
> 
> Don't know why- but it is no big deal to do......


-------------------------------
I was able to flash the latest software version 4.07B1, however, I lost my USB driver. Trying to re flash the Amanero driver and I encounter the following message, any help would be great. Thanks.

"The folder you specified doesn't contain a compatible software driver for your device. If the folder contains a driver, make sure it is designed to work with Windows for x64 based suystems.

The file name obtained from Amanero website is : atm6124_cdc.inf


----------



## Wynnytsky

r


Jandu said:


> -------------------------------
> I was able to flash the latest software version 4.07B1, however, I lost my USB driver. Trying to re flash the Amanero driver and I encounter the following message, any help would be great. Thanks.
> 
> "The folder you specified doesn't contain a compatible software driver for your device. If the folder contains a driver, make sure it is designed to work with Windows for x64 based suystems.
> ...



So I guess the flash never started.  And did you try this already?
http://www.audio-gd.com/combo384_drivers_w10_1062.rar


----------



## Wynnytsky

Zachik said:


> I wonder if that is still true when powering the DI-20 (vs. HE) from a power regenerator (like the PS Audio P12)...



FYI this guy claims the R7 has such good power filtering that his power conditioner made no diff, and that wasn't even the HE.
I wonder if the same could be said of the DI-20.


When I get an HE DAC it will be interesting to see which one likes the wall more (I only have 1 free plug).  I know my di20he loves going into the wall with a litz power cord.


----------



## Jandu

Wynnytsky said:


> r
> 
> 
> So I guess the flash never started.  And did you try this already?
> http://www.audio-gd.com/combo384_drivers_w10_1062.rar





Wynnytsky said:


> r
> 
> 
> So I guess the flash never started.  And did you try this already?
> http://www.audio-gd.com/combo384_drivers_w10_1062.rar




I think you are right the flash never happened. I did tried once with the Win10 default device driver and went on to flash the CPLD and the CPU, however, at the end it did not work. So, I think I do need to get this, atm6124_cdc.inf, driver installed before I can proceed to flash the CPLD and CPU of the Amanero chip.

I tried two different Windows PC and both came up with the same message.


----------



## Jandu

Jandu said:


> I think you are right the flash never happened. I did tried once with the Win10 default device driver and went on to flash the CPLD and the CPU, however, at the end it did not work. So, I think I do need to get this, atm6124_cdc.inf, driver installed before I can proceed to flash the CPLD and CPU of the Amanero chip.
> 
> I tried two different Windows PC and both came up with the same message.



I got it sorted by going to a PC running Windows 7 and the error message did not come up and I was able to flash the firmware.


Thanks, all for help


----------



## UsoppNoKami

If using 64 bit version of Windows 10, the Amanero file Atm6124_cdc.inf for driver installation will not work, because there is no manufacturer digital signature.  According to sites I found, Winx64 requires drivers to be digitally signed. 

There are guides online to disable driver digital signature verification , but another easier way i stumbled upon is when Windows detects the Amanero USB after reset, it gives it some wrong ID - Bossa Program Port (COM3).  In device manager, what I did was right click to update driver, then just use windows' own generic USB Serial Port that is available. 

This then allowed the Amanero ConfigTool program to work.


----------



## nazhmd

DACLadder said:


> That version of Quartus SW (12.1) is obsolete and most definitely all documentation needs to be updated.  On the Audio GD f/w download page, there is a OneDrive cloud link the download 16.0 Quarus PC software (or click below). Just choose 16.0 Quartus 64 or 32-bit version. Download and PC install. No license required. Be sure and answer ‘yes’ during installation to install USB drivers for the Blasters.  16.0 has more modern Windows ‘look‘ but functions basically the same as 12.1.  We are here to help. First time use setup is intimidating but ‘old pro‘ in no time.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
> https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1


Need some help with the Quartus 16.0. No problem downloading from OneDrive and installing and yes USB blaster was allowed. Upon opening no auto detect of USB blaster. I have Win10 and tried compatibility install with Windows 7 & 8 with no success. What now? Any suggestions.


----------



## Jandu

UsoppNoKami said:


> If using 64 bit version of Windows 10, the Amanero file Atm6124_cdc.inf for driver installation will not work, because there is no manufacturer digital signature.  According to sites I found, Winx64 requires drivers to be digitally signed.
> 
> There are guides online to disable driver digital signature verification , but another easier way i stumbled upon is when Windows detects the Amanero USB after reset, it gives it some wrong ID - Bossa Program Port (COM3).  In device manager, what I did was right click to update driver, then just use windows' own generic USB Serial Port that is available.
> 
> This then allowed the Amanero ConfigTool program to work.



I was trying to do it that way as well. With the default win10 device driver,  it then would allowed the firmware to be flashed,  however,  once the USB gets unplugged and re-pluged in,  it still would not recognize the device.


----------



## Jandu

nazhmd said:


> Need some help with the Quartus 16.0. No problem downloading from OneDrive and installing and yes USB blaster was allowed. Upon opening no auto detect of USB blaster. I have Win10 and tried compatibility install with Windows 7 & 8 with no success. What now? Any suggestions.




Need to install the device driver for it.  Then drag and drop the firmware file before you can proceed


----------



## UsoppNoKami

Jandu said:


> I was trying to do it that way as well. With the default win10 device driver,  it then would allowed the firmware to be flashed,  however,  once the USB gets unplugged and re-pluged in,  it still would not recognize the device.



did you reflash the same version of firmware or a different amanero firmware?  windows can be a bit picky at times... after a reflash, you might need to re-install the appropriate amanero driver.  

anyway in my case, I reflashed the DI-20HE amanero firmware to the version that supports Native DSD in LINUX as I was connecting to it from a RPI4B instead of windows PC.  

i did test in windows also after the reflash, have to download this driver instead of the usual combo384 driver - 

https://www.amanero.com/drivers/setupuac2.exe

from here: https://www.amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm


----------



## nazhmd

Jandu said:


> Need to install the device driver for it.  Then drag and drop the firmware file before you can proceed


Need to be more specific, I am a newbie at this. Step by step. Where do I find this device driver?


----------



## Roasty

Sorry, did not manage to read thru all 100plus pages of this thread. 

I'm currently using the SU-6 and i2s out to holo and xsabre pro dacs (su-6 is the only ddc I know with two i2s hdmi ports).

Can someone help me with the following? 
For DI20HE, can u use the i2s and coaxial out simultaneously? 
Anyone compared DI20HE to denafrips gaia?


----------



## Toni-Mang

Roasty said:


> For DI20HE, can u use the i2s and coaxial out simultaneously?


Yes, you can, i can feed the R8 (I2S) and the NOS11(coax) at the same time...


----------



## Jandu (Jul 5, 2020)

nazhmd said:


> Need to be more specific, I am a newbie at this. Step by step. Where do I find this device driver?



This is from memory, so try it.

When plug in the USBlaster, you need to go to "Device Manager", find the corresponding USB device, right click to install the device driver. Depending on your OS, you pick the correct driver for it. You can find the driver in one of the directories from the Quartas program under "qprogrammer/drivers".

Run the download program "Altera 16" and it would installed to your start menu. From the start menu, pick "Quartas 16 Programmer" to open. Once open, drop your file with "jic" extension to the location of the first arrow(you may have to wait a few seconds to do this), then cleck the box at the second arrow, once that is done, click start where the 3rd arrow is . Then the green letter at the bottom will start the process.

Let me know if it works, if not, which step is not working.

Do not touch the red button at the back of the DI20 besides the USBlaster plug-in unless you want to reprogram the Amanero board.


----------



## Roasty

Toni-Mang said:


> Yes, you can, i can feed the R8 (I2S) and the NOS11(coax) at the same time...



Thanks very much. Ideally, id like two hdmi i2s ports. Emailed audiogd and kingwa messaged back, saying they would have to drill the case and it may not look so nice, plus additional usd40 for the hdmi port.

I've seen ppl here mention it is better than su-6. I think the su-6 sounds pretty good, but now I'm wondering how much better the DI20HE is.. Curiosity is killing the wallet.


----------



## DACLadder

When using Quartus I verify 3 things before attempting to program the Altera FPGA.  Step 1 verifies the Windows USB driver is loaded and the PC sees the USB Blaster connected to a USB port on the PC.  Step 2 verifies Quartus sees and uses the intended Blaster.  And Step 3 just verifies the USB Blaster's JTAG interface is properly oriented/ connected and has power from the device under test.  If you get this far then programming is a breeze.

You can find the Word document here.   'Altera_Blaster_Checks.docx'  
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1


----------



## nazhmd

Jandu said:


> This is from memory, so try it.
> 
> When plug in the USBlaster, you need to go to "Device Manager", find the corresponding USB device, right click to install the device driver. Depending on your OS, you pick the correct driver for it. You can find the driver in one of the directories from the Quartas program under "qprogrammer/drivers".
> 
> ...


I was able to get the USB-Blaster driver installed. Having problem with the install stage which failed. There was a quick message flash about some JTAG code missing and then the dreaded blue screen appeared.


----------



## Jandu

nazhmd said:


> I was able to get the USB-Blaster driver installed. Having problem with the install stage which failed. There was a quick message flash about some JTAG code missing and then the dreaded blue screen appeared.



I did not encounter that issue, so I have no clue as to why it happened. 

If I was to troubleshoot it, I would uninstall the device driver and pick a different one to start with.


----------



## nazhmd

Jandu said:


> I did not encounter that issue, so I have no clue as to why it happened.
> 
> If I was to troubleshoot it, I would uninstall the device driver and pick a different one to start with.


With many new DI-20 owners that will be updating their firmware some new guidelines needs to be updated and tested. Am I one of few or many having this problem. I am going to try buying a different USB-Baster device.


----------



## Jandu

nazhmd said:


> With many new DI-20 owners that will be updating their firmware some new guidelines needs to be updated and tested. Am I one of few or many having this problem. I am going to try buying a different USB-Baster device.



Not sure if you are the lucky one or there are many out there. However, other hardware are same. I spent close to 3 days trying to re-flash my Amanero firmware, it just won't work with Win10. At the end, I was lucky that using a Win7 PC did the trick. The newly implemented Win10 procedures invalidated the "inf" file and won't let one doing the update. 

I would try to un-install the device driver to ensure the old remnant of whatever at that COM port is erased before re-install the device driver again. Failing that, I would try uninstall Altera and re-install with the USB blaster plug into a different USB port.


----------



## DACLadder (Jul 5, 2020)

If you installed Quartus 64 and get “blue screen of death” try Quartus 32.  Had the same issue with the Xilinx 64-bit firmware loader. it crashed.  Xilinx 32 works fine.

Here is what I would try
As mentioned uninstall Quartus 64.  First, disable USB-Blaster in Device Manager and unistall/delete the USB-Blaster driver (permanently if asked by Windows).
Restart PC.  Now install Quartus 32.  Have the Blaster connected to USB during the install.  If asked confirm to load Blaster drivers.
Restart PC.  In Device Manager verify USB-Blaster is recognized with USB driver installed.  Now try Quartus 32.

For our needs there is no performance difference or advantage between Quartus 32 or 64. Just a matter of what runs smoothly and without error.  On any reinstall I would first delete the current Blaster USB driver prior to the installation.


----------



## Bech (Jul 6, 2020)

Hi.
I have not been as much in zen with my set-up as earlier for some time.
Friday I upgraded my DI-20 from v. 3.9 to v. 4.07 and had the same feeling: it has been better.
By a sudden impulse I shifted back to firmware v. 3.32 and found this was much better - my set-up played with an effortless ease and natural sound that was wonderfull to listen to 

Has anyone else compared the new firmware with the original?
Has something been lost in the development chasing solutions to other problems?

To the story: I have had 2 problems with v 3.9 and 4.07 that might not have anything to do with my experience.
1) Sometimes my dcs Pursell upsampler have had problems to lock to the signal from the DI-20. With 3.9 I found the right start-up sequence - this did not work with v 4.07 and I just had to turn off and on several times hoping to get the signal locked.
2) With 3.9 music a few times have had an overload of treble which disappeared turning the DI-20 off and on again.


----------



## Toni-Mang

4.07, treble seems to sound different...but this is just a first impulse and i will keep 4.07, to be sure...no issues with any firmware of the DI20HE.


----------



## nazhmd

DACLadder said:


> If you installed Quartus 64 and get “blue screen of death” try Quartus 32.  Had the same issue with the Xilinx 64-bit firmware loader. it crashed.  Xilinx 32 works fine.
> 
> Here is what I would try
> As mentioned uninstall Quartus 64.  First, disable USB-Blaster in Device Manager and unistall/delete the USB-Blaster driver (permanently if asked by Windows).
> ...


I want to thank Jandu and DACLadder for their suggestions. It got me thinking and in the end the problems were with Windows 10. The lesson learned was to always keep some old software around you never know when you will need it. Long story short I had an old laptop with Windows 8.1 pro on it 32 bit which effortlessly loaded the Quartus software and carried the firmware update to the V4.07 Beta1 without a hitch. So far everything is sounding excellent through I2S including the S/PDIF input, no more intermittent phasing in the sound. Now I have a great transport with I2S output to my PSA DSD Sr. DAC. A win win situation in my book. Thank you guys you are the best.


----------



## nazhmd

The V4.07 Beta1 firmware is giving the best I2S sound output using the external Morion OCXO clock from Queen*_land IMO without going overboard with a Mutec REF-10.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jul 7, 2020)

Just wanted to share the following tweak with you all.

Stabilant 22 is a contact enhancer.  Cost is around $35 which provides enough liquid to apply to an entire stereo system many times.

I tried it recently.  I applied it to the both ends of all my power chords, IC's, my RG400 cables which connect my external clock to my R-7HE and DI-20HE, and to both ends of my USB cable and HDMI cable.

The results have been very gratifying.  I have tried other contact enhancers in the past at 3-4 times the price and this one betters them all.  Resolution and transparency are improved as is usual with these enhancers but the sound- unlike my experience with other enhancers is neither bright nor thin.  In fact, tonal fullness and harmonic depth are vastly improved- this was very surprising to me but it s the most noticeable change from using this product.  Solidity and dynamics are also noticeably improved.    I am very impressed with this very inexpensive product.......

I know we head-fiers sometimes have a reputation for overreacting and exaggerating our findings; however I am confident to say that this product is not less and even more of a change than adding or changing a major component.

I don't want to imply that everyone will like the change as these things are very personal- but change- and big change will result from using this product for those who want to try.


----------



## ZERUNG

rsbrsvp said:


> Just wanted to share the following tweak with you all.
> Stabilant 22 is a contact enhancer.  Cost is around $35 which provides enough liquid to apply to an entire stereo system many times.



Thank you
Where did you buy this?


----------



## rsbrsvp

eBay, amazon etc...


----------



## REAN1MAT0R (Jul 7, 2020)

Hello guys!
What do you think about best 10mhz bnc cables for master clock?
In case if we need to have both 50 and 75ohm variants of cables I think several candidats looks like these:
- HABST bnc
- Shunyata Sigma Clock
- SoTM dCBL bnc

What do you think?

Does anybody have a problem while Di-20HE connected by usb without usb power on it does not recognized by pc after reloading ?
I thought it should not have problems with usb cables without usb power because it is power isolated..


----------



## Wynnytsky

@Bech 
I've also been unable to warm up to these new firmwares w/ the Morion.  I'm not hearing the same r2r sound that held my interest for hours on end.  I'll go back to internal clock till we get a new version


----------



## Wynnytsky

i dunno, tonight's playback has that tractor beam lock on me
[2011] Awolnation
[1991] Bela Fleck & The Flecktones
[1993] Bjørn Eidsvåg
[2015] Caecilie Norby & Lars Danielsson
[1983] An Innocent Man (1998 Remaster)

it's an audiophile sound that gives you a front row seat, but doesn't drag you on stage
over the top dynamics that's fatigue free and addictive at live music levels


----------



## nazhmd

Have been enjoying the FW 4.07 through USB and S/PDIF input via I2S output with no problems. Decided to test the ACSS and STD S/PDIF outputs and was unable to establish a lock on the DAC input and there is no sound. If this was my only way to access a DAC without an I2S input that would have been a real bummer. Fortunately it is not, so I guess Kingwa still has some more work to do with the firmware updates. In the meantime I will continue to enjoy this current V4.07 via I2S output.


----------



## DACLadder

4.07 beta 1 has a pile of bugs.  May go back to a prior release while waiting for newer version of firmware.  But internal clock sounded really good this morning usb in/i2s out/parallel mode.  Gives a glimpse of things to come.

No word from Kingwa when to expect a firmware update.  He seems to be very busy lately.


----------



## nazhmd

DACLadder said:


> 4.07 beta 1 has a pile of bugs.  May go back to a prior release while waiting for newer version of firmware.  But internal clock sounded really good this morning usb in/i2s out/parallel mode.  Gives a glimpse of things to come.
> 
> No word from Kingwa when to expect a firmware update.  He seems to be very busy lately.


No problem, I am enjoying this Beta version.


----------



## DACLadder

For ACSS cable type Kingwa is currently using Sommer Cable Aqua-Marinex Mikro 25.  It’s a microphone cable that’s underwater approved.  He likes it better than the stock cables.  
https://shop.sommercable.com/en/Cab...abel-SC-AQUA-MARINEX-MIKRO-25-200-0241AQ.html


----------



## borrego

My experience with Sommer cables is their cables with 110 ohm impedance specifications all sound very transparent and give excellent imaging. I have some Sommer peacock mk2 cables which I shall use to build cables for my LCD-XC. If there is enough left over then I might use them to build some ACSS cables.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jul 10, 2020)

4.07b with USB in and I2s out (parallel mode) sounds a bit more transparent with internal clocks than external.  In fact- it is the most transparent sound I have heard yet from my system.

If I stick with 4.07- I may be sticking with internal clocking.  I need to go back to older firmware where I preferred external clocking and compare with 4.07 using internal clocking to decide which is better until the DI firmware is perfected.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jul 10, 2020)

I just reverted to 3.9 and then back to 4.07 to compare.  3.9 simply does NOT compare to 4.07 AT ALL.  3.9 is so much rounder while 4.07b is so so much more transparent and resolute.  The difference is day and night.   I know nothing about other inputs and outputs because I use USB in and I2S out;- but with that formula- 4.07b is by far the least colored and most transparent with internal or external clocking. I could barely stand listening to 3.9 now that I have gotten used to so much more fidelity.  If 4.07 sounds to sharp at first- wait and give your ears time to adjust.  It is to my ears much superior....


----------



## Wynnytsky

rsbrsvp said:


> If 4.07 sounds to sharp at first- wait and give your ears time to adjust.


yeah I think that's what's happening to me.  I've had one sound since 2017 and when great DACs visit (like that EMM, directstream, W4S 10th Anniv) I would concede to hearing new levels of transparency but at the expense of musicality and tone.  And while the terminator and amber3 were more of the whole package, my desire to hear an AGD DAC mastered by the same clock as my DI is too great to entertain other brands.  In the mean time I'll try inviting DACs over to hear what the DI+Morion effect has on them.

What intrigues me most by Morion+4.07 is how the whole chain maintains composure at much louder playback levels.  The coloration in my older sound was tasteful at lower levels but blown out at higher levels, something that I was entirely attributing to room limitations (glad I was wrong).


----------



## PLGA

Hello guys
Is there a sonic improvement on the DI-20 (HE or not) with 4.07 beta1 firmware vs the 3.9 ones? 

Im not interested on debug improvement as 3.9 version works perfectly fine for me (streaming Tidal Hifi and MQA), only sound quality improvement is what I care for.


----------



## DACLadder (Jul 13, 2020)

I’m using 3.9.  No rush on upgrade unless you are curious.  4.07 b1 has a few bugs but sounds good using DI’s internal Accusilicon XOs.

There will be newer firmware in the near future.  Kingwa is busy and no timeline.


----------



## Oepsie (Jul 15, 2020)

Following Bech's example, I tried downgrading to v3.32 of the firmware (currently on 3.9) to give it a listen. To me, the original firmware also sounds very good, it is a bit 'rounder' in its sound signature and more emphasis on voices. More analog in feeling with a very natural tonal balance on instruments. To my ears and in my setup, the 3.9 version adds more texture to instruments and voices and is more homogeneous top to bottom. Isolated, the difference is minor but not subtle and a matter of preference and synergy with the system (in my humble opinion at least  ).

Will also try later versions of the firmware as experiments with external clock has shown great potential (without changing the tonal balance!), and if the newer versions can bring up the performance of the internal clock without changing the tonal balance of the unit then I'll be very happy!  But some reports indicate otherwise?

"4.07b with USB in and I2s out (parallel mode) sounds a bit more transparent with internal clocks than external. In fact- it is the most transparent sound I have heard yet from my system."

"I just reverted to 3.9 and then back to 4.07 to compare. 3.9 simply does NOT compare to 4.07 AT ALL. 3.9 is so much rounder while 4.07b is so so much more transparent and resolute. The difference is day and night."

To my ears and in my setup, "transparent" and "3.9 is so much rounder" is not a good thing - I'm already balancing..


----------



## jazzbug

DACLadder said:


> If you installed Quartus 64 and get “blue screen of death” try Quartus 32.  Had the same issue with the Xilinx 64-bit firmware loader. it crashed.  Xilinx 32 works fine.
> 
> Here is what I would try
> As mentioned uninstall Quartus 64.  First, disable USB-Blaster in Device Manager and unistall/delete the USB-Blaster driver (permanently if asked by Windows).
> ...



Hi DACLadder,
I just received my USB Blaster then tried on two W7 and one W10 laptop, Quartus 64 are all into blue screen. I followed you to installed Quartus 32, but there is no hardware option...

During 64 I had bit luck with W7 twice no crash. But it couldn't processthe "Test JTAG Chain", so I have to cancel it.
Then the FW updates with both V399 & V407 couldn't proceed. It Started then showing cant access file, resulted end with failure. 
Could you please help?


----------



## DACLadder

@jazzbug  I repeated installation of Quartus 16.0 x64.   Even though during installation I selected to install USB Blaster drivers I had to manually do so afterward in Windows Computer Management->Device Manager.  See the updated "Altera_Blaster_Checks.docx" Steps 2 (2a - 2c) to manually install the USB driver after Quartus installation. You need Quartus installed and the Blaster connected to the PC.

https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1


----------



## FredA

Got my SimpleBest (owned by a friend of Kingwa's)  class-a RPI power supply ( http://www.simplebest-gd.com/lbdypc). The unit is big and runs hot but delivers a very analog and resolved sound when used on my Allo Usbridge Signature (a requested a 5.5/2.1 output for this purpose).  The upgrade is quite significant compared to two other very good psus i got on ebay. I was not expecting that big an improvement, it is about 2-3 times what i expected. Dynamics are betters while the sound is more relaxed. I will start a new thread and post further comments.

I got the unit graciously, but this will not change my usual honest approach of telling exactly what is on my mind.

 I am really enjoying the unit as it is bringing new details forward in the rendition, quite amazingly.

The unit looks better in person than on the website. I will post pictures later. I hope SimpleBest makes other units not meant to receive a RPI as this one in the future, this would allow using a smaller chassis,  this one is big. I would certainly like a 12v unit for my ocxo.


----------



## FredA

This is the new thread:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/simplebest-psu-chassis-for-rpi4.937535/


----------



## jazzbug

[/QUOTE]
Thanks DACLadder. 
The USB Blaster was from local seller on eBay. When the USB Blaster plugged in DI-20HE, the yellow light's up. When I plugged in the USB cable into computer, the red light's up.

I have selected Altera USB as hardware, as the instruction I tried to test the JTAG chain, it's taken really long to proceed each time. Either no response, or I wouls get the no good result (as pic 1). I noticed the red light was off then on again on the USB Blaster during the test.

Then finally I got successful result (as pic 2/3), I went ahead for the updates. I followed the instruction, chose either the 399 or 497 file (as pic 6)

After a while, I got two messages to say it's failed. (as pic 4 & 5).

I have tried with 3 computers, a Windows 10 would crash by just starting the programmer every time. Only one Windows 7 would stay with above mentioned process. And I have been trying for 4 days with the same result.It's really frustrating and I couldn't google further information about this kind of updates.
Not sure what else to do...


----------



## Jandu (Jul 16, 2020)

No content


----------



## Jandu

I still think your USB device driver is not installed correctly. Try to use a Win7/8 PC and uninstall the driver and install the driver under the Altea directory.


----------



## jazzbug

Jandu said:


> I still think your USB device driver is not installed correctly. Try to use a Win7/8 PC and uninstall the driver and install the driver under the Altea directory.


Thx Jandu, I will uninstall the driver when I get home.


----------



## Wynnytsky

if I plug in my blaster to the computer only, then right click the start button and choose device manager




then I see this popup




and under driver details I see this



I attached that first SYS file but with the extension changed to PDF

2yr ago I installed "Quartus II 12.1sp1 Programmer" and used that for a while.
8mo ago I installed "Quartus Prime 16.0 Programmer" (w/o uninstalling v12).


----------



## Wynnytsky

Yesterday a chord hugo (v1) and amber3 visited.  I was listening to the amber3 on ext clock and coax and during mid-playback I switched to int clock, and I got significant noise.  I could fix it by switching back to ext, but every time I switched to int the noise came back.  I2S was still clean on both clocks.  I'm pretty sure I tried stopping playback, and restarting to no avail -- I didn't go any further with reboots/etc, but that was the first incident I've had with the DI20HE, ever.  I use 4.07b1.  Next time I A/B DACs I'll leave that button alone!

I had to use the hugo's own USB input (2015 tech) because it's coax input had so little clearance.  On speaker playback it sounded best with it's crossfeed max'ed out.  That FPGA dac has the shortest signal path of any audiophile dac I've listened to.  Something very refreshing about it -- very low ring/capacitance?

I didn't have time to give the amber3's USB input a try, though this was my first listen w/ ext clock.  The depth of bass for r2r7 vs amber3 is much more similar now, though the performance gap in the treble didn't close (I think they both improved by the same amount).  The r2r7 is still the king between bass and lower-mids.


----------



## DACLadder

@jazzbug  Looks like Quartus does not know what target FPGA device you are trying to load.  The JTAG chain test indicates the wires are connected OK but the target device is unknown.

Try this....
1.  Right click the large FPGA device in the Quartus desktop.  In the pop-up select:  Edit->Add Device
2.  Now select Device family "Cyclone IV E" and Device name "EP4CE6".  Press OK to save and close the pop-up
3.  "EP4CE6" will appear below the FPGA graphic in Quartus.

Now give it try.  And when successful you can save the configuration for next time. (Save As)


----------



## DACLadder

@jazzbug  You could also have a bad Blaster or some incompatibility with the PC to Blaster USB interface.  Your issue may be simply data errors.  Quartus is not reading the bits correctly from the JTAG chain.  The original Blaster I had (cheap Atmel clone) would not work with my PC.  I had to buy a real "clone" which has been 100% reliable.


----------



## UsoppNoKami (Jul 17, 2020)

@jazzbug - Genuine Intel Altera blaster can be found at authorised resellers like Mouser Electronics if you are so inclined, but it's pricey. 

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intel-Altera/PL-USB2-BLASTER?qs=%2B9/cbd0IE0TFJATuRScm0A==


----------



## Wynnytsky (Jul 17, 2020)

mine was $8 ebay jobby with a listing titled
altera Mini Usb Blaster Cable For CPLD FPGA NIOS JTAG Altera Programmer M278

mine has the darker blue sticker (they're all rev c)





The Instructions are Chinese and they only mention windows 2000 and XP!


----------



## PLGA

Wynnytsky said:


> Yesterday a chord hugo (v1) and amber3 visited.  I was listening to the amber3 on ext clock and coax and during mid-playback I switched to int clock, and I got significant noise.  I could fix it by switching back to ext, but every time I switched to int the noise came back.  I2S was still clean on both clocks.  I'm pretty sure I tried stopping playback, and restarting to no avail -- I didn't go any further with reboots/etc, but that was the first incident I've had with the DI20HE, ever.  I use 4.07b1.  Next time I A/B DACs I'll leave that button alone!
> 
> I had to use the hugo's own USB input (2015 tech) because it's coax input had so little clearance.  On speaker playback it sounded best with it's crossfeed max'ed out.  That FPGA dac has the shortest signal path of any audiophile dac I've listened to.  Something very refreshing about it -- very low ring/capacitance?
> 
> I didn't have time to give the amber3's USB input a try, though this was my first listen w/ ext clock.  The depth of bass for r2r7 vs amber3 is much more similar now, though the performance gap in the treble didn't close (I think they both improved by the same amount).  The r2r7 is still the king between bass and lower-mids.



Hello Wynnytsky
How would you compare the R2R-7 against the Hugo and the Amber 3?

Wich one do you like the most? 

DIs you fed all of them with the DI-20?


----------



## Wynnytsky

PLGA said:


> Hello Wynnytsky
> How would you compare the R2R-7 against the Hugo and the Amber 3?
> 
> Wich one do you like the most?
> ...



yes all fed by di20he w/ morion

hugo had impressive speed, very balanced, and similar to a DirectStream.  May be less colored than DS but I prefer DS' bottom end.

As much as i love good treble, I think I value what the R2R7 is doing better in the lower registers than what the amber3 is doing much better in the upper registers.
I would recommend the $3900 balanced Amber3 (no usb interface) for the music lover with cash.  The audiophile in me needs i2s+10mhz inputs and hopefully the R7 will get me closer to the Amber3's treble.


----------



## DACLadder

The Altera USB Blaster adapter I used is based upon “rev c” hardware.  Search Ebay ”altera usb blaster rev c”.  They are supposedly near identical hardware clones.. $15-20usd.


----------



## newabc

I haven't tried to install the usb blaster in win10, but if the Quartus cannot work in Linux or the win 7 in VMPlayer, I will have only 1 win 7 computer to do this job from this month.

The google search has only 3 useful links which looks to make sense:
https://mil.ufl.edu/3701/docs/quartus/byteblaster/usb-blaster_driver_install.pdf
http://www.terasic.com.tw/wiki/Altera_USB_Blaster_Driver_Installation_Instructions
and
https://community.intel.com/t5/Prog...-10-driver-support-for-USB-Blaster/td-p/55323

The intel community one looks quite complex.

If considering linux, it seems lots of documents focus on Ubuntu 16.04, except one for 17.04
(1) Fighting Altera USB-Blaster on Ubuntu 
https://blog.atomminer.com/fighting-altera-usb-blaster-on-ubuntu/

(2) The Quartus 14.0/15.1 prime lite/19.1 prime lite installation on Linux
http://www.armadeus.org/wiki/index.php?title=Quartus_installation_on_Linux
(3) Quartus 15.0 web edtion installation on Ubuntu 16.04
https://mil.ufl.edu/3701/docs/quartus/quartus15.0_Linux_installation_instructions.pdf
(4) Quartus 16.1 prime lite on Ubuntu 16.04
http://www.stevesmuddlings.org/2015/09/test-post-1.html

USB blaster installation on linux
(1) https://rocketboards.org/foswiki/Documentation/UsingUSBBlasterUnderLinux
(2) https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...resources/download/drivers/dri-usb_b-lnx.html


----------



## jazzbug

Thx heaps DACLadder for the constant help
I tried to uninstall/reinstall the Quartus64, then uninstall/manually install the USB driver. For only once luck I went successful with 'test the JTAG chain'. Then I started the update unfortunately it's still the same result of "device chain in use".
I decided to try on my music server HTPC windows 2012v2, after a few crashes, it ended the same as with Window 7 laptop.

I might be the really unlucky one with this update method. My eBay USB Blaster is Rev C like  Wynnytsky. Thx for  UsoppNoKami, I might have to try to get a better clone blaster. 
If you have other suggestions, please let me know. 
Really appreciate you guys in this forum


----------



## nikko510

I have exactly the one in the picture and never had any problems.
I have an older version installed Quartus II 12.1


----------



## dacver

jazzbug said:


> Thx heaps DACLadder for the constant help
> I tried to uninstall/reinstall the Quartus64, then uninstall/manually install the USB driver. For only once luck I went successful with 'test the JTAG chain'. Then I started the update unfortunately it's still the same result of "device chain in use".
> I decided to try on my music server HTPC windows 2012v2, after a few crashes, it ended the same as with Window 7 laptop.
> 
> ...


Hi jazzbug.
Try to install the old Quartus II 12.1. It works for me faultlessly from the beginning in windows 7 32bit.


----------



## jazzbug

dacver said:


> Hi jazzbug.
> Try to install the old Quartus II 12.1. It works for me faultlessly from the beginning in windows 7 32bit.


Hi dacver,
Thanks and I'd like to try 12.1, but could not find the download, is there a way you could share the file please?


----------



## newabc

The BNC-BNC cable designed for 12G SDI video works quite well and shows good performance for acss SPDIF of DI-20/DI-20HE. For example, the Belden 4794R based ones with a 16awg solid core. 

But other than the expectation of last year, various 8K video equipment for year 2020 are quite expensive, except of Canon's 5R and Z CAM, 8K30p in both of them. In the rumor, Sony's A7S3 will come without 8K at the end of this month. So I think the cable manufacturers like Canare or Belden will not lift their cable grade to play 8K60p video until next year just before the delayed Olympics.


----------



## dacver

jazzbug said:


> Hi dacver,
> Thanks and I'd like to try 12.1, but could not find the download, is there a way you could share the file please?


I sent you download link in private. Please open the private message.
It's not available in Intel site anymore.
cheers.


----------



## jazzbug

Thanks heaps dacver, with 12.1 it went smoothly and fast last night. The update to 4.07 FW is now successful as the photo 
Was wondering if there is a way to check the loaded FW... anyway I believe its 4.07 FW? I will need to wait to try out this weekend.
BTW we will need to wear masks at workplace from Wed...
Thank you again, keep safe and enjoy music


----------



## jimmychan

I use the checksum to identify the version.


----------



## jazzbug (Jul 20, 2020)




----------



## jazzbug

jimmychan said:


> I use the checksum to identify the version.


Hi Jimmychan,
You mean to check afterwards of update?


----------



## jimmychan

Yes, you notice the checksum has changed.


----------



## dacver

Very good sound coming from the latest beta firmware using the inside clock.
Robertson Audio is making me a reference Master ACSS cable for the pre- amp to Master 3. I’m using the agd cable but using Robertson ACSS reference cable in R2RHE to the pre-amp. Looking forward to any coming new firmware.


----------



## Jackula

From memory Robertson ACSS used to be a thicker AWG which is why I opted to buy the eBay Invictus cable. But now at the smaller 24 AWG, looks like I'll be buying a pair too.


----------



## jazzbug

I have just had a quick audition after 4.07 FW update, it's quite different from the original FW. It seems volume is up, more open, articulate. Doesn't mean the original FW is inferior, just different interpretation and taste to match with individual audio system I guess. 
I'll need to try more this weekend.


----------



## rsbrsvp

4.07= ultimate transparency and resolution so far.  I cannot go back...


----------



## Toni-Mang

+1 - but still P mode is not as open as S mode in my system....


----------



## rsbrsvp

P mode is fuller.  S mode is rawer (perhaps a drop more truthfull)-- can't think of a better word to describe it right now.


----------



## Oepsie

rsbrsvp said:


> P mode is fuller.  S mode is rawer (perhaps a drop more truthfull)-- can't think of a better word to describe it right now.


Interesting.. this is not entirely my experience. To me, P mode is a bit leaner than S mode. I agree that S is rawer but with my dac it has more weight and sounds more natural. P mode almost sounds ‘pretty’  and a bit dull (sorry for lack of better words).

but its a strange difference, not sure what is supposed to be better from a technical perspective?


----------



## rsbrsvp

I agree S is more natural- less coloured, more raw- but to my ears- leaner.

But- I like P better in my current setup.  I do not find it dull- I do find it fuller without loosing detail.

No question- the differences in S and P are dependant on many other variants in components, cables and our ears....


----------



## Toni-Mang

In P mode, the soundstage is imho not as wide as in s mode...maybe it is also a question of the source. My laptop is not the fastest one.
S mode and nos on the r8 is for me the perfekt setting, someone could feel that the image of details might be overly sharp but this is how i like it and it is always a question of gear synergy. I leave the r8 and di20he powered on most of the time and after 12 hours, the r8 changes in sound dramatically....the sound is completely decoupled, holographic and unbeleavable wide and deep....amazing for an item with such bad measurements


----------



## DecentLevi

What is an R8, an external clock? And I want to try the newest firmware update but it looks like I need a special cable, where do I get that and is there any other hardware needed? Thanks


----------



## newabc

DecentLevi said:


> What is an R8, an external clock? And I want to try the newest firmware update but it looks like I need a special cable, where do I get that and is there any other hardware needed? Thanks


Hi, 
in Audio-gd's DACs, R8 is the little brother of R7 with the same R-2R modules but the SMD technology to lower the cost.
R8 link; R8HE link


----------



## DecentLevi (Jul 24, 2020)

Here's my brief impressions on the DI-20 after owning mine for 3 weeks.

I went for the upgraded 90/98M version and no external clock so far and I'm coming from an early 1st-gen Singxer SU-1 DDC. My source is Win. laptop out to a series of both Schiit Wyrd USB 'cleaner' and iFi iPurifier 2 cleaner before going into this DDC; numerous tests tests with many DAC's and both DDCs with all styles of music have unwaveringly been in favor of using both components beforehand. My DAC is Chord Qutest and I'm using a decent DC LPS to further improve its' performance. Amp is Quad PA One +, headphones are HD-600 with upgraded silver cable (or) Stax electrostat system.

Early testing actually had me a little disappointed, seeming like a bit fatiguing with extra treble emphasis. I also wasn't convinced about the bass or soundstage. Letting it burn in with music for about 8 hours / day usually when I wasn't in front of it (in addition to the 100 hrs. factory burn-in), somewhere I became more pleased with the result, probably around week two.

Fresh off the heels of a critical comparison between the DI-20 vs. SU-1, and vs. a CD transport via Toslink optical directly into my DAC, here are my findings:
The SU-1 gave me more of a sense of 'immediacy', as if it _could be_ giving better sound. But several more A/B's had shown that to me that was more of an edgy character giving a false impression of good performance... switching back to the DI-20 (both using the same well-mastered test song and same digital coax cable), it became evident that the DI-20 has a better resolution to the low-end, smoother highs and an overall more realistic sound. Another switch back to the SU-1 made it sound as if some elements of the resolution are a bit 'smeared'; still sounding competitive but just not as well presented and with lower sense of resolution. I'm lucky that the DI-20 has smoothed / balanced out fairly well because I was beginning to question the FR towards the beginning, and now I can listen largely without fatigue and sometimes even experience too much bass, and thankfully that is just due to the occasional recording itself.

Next I put it up against my CD transport (Teac CD P650B) directly to my DAC via top Toslink optical cable instead of going through my laptop - USB chain - DDC route. I was playing the same song at the same time on both units, CD on the transport and FLAC on my PC. I was quite impressed: It took several A/B's before being able to detect any differences! I was able to instantly switch between the two sources with the DAC input button. Perhaps I was getting texture that was a nuance more detailed and bass with a very very slight edge in resolution on the CD transport, but that was all I could notice thus far in that comparison. And that is quite the testament to the performance of the DI-20, being able to sound virtually identical to the CD transport of a fairly good brand name, bypassing its' internal DAC with a direct to DAC optical connection of good quality.

I'm happy to say it looks like the DI-20 is a keeper and has improved over time. There are unfortunately several draw-backs: It does not support DSD over SPDIF (both coax) outputs, which for me means I have to physically move the USB cable to my DAC instead of the DDC when I want to listen to those; being that coax is the only common connection type between the the DI-20 and the Qutest DAC. Also I occasionally get a high pitch buzzing sound when stopping audio.

RE the P(arrellel) vs. S(serial) modes. Dozens of A/B comparisons has me going for the S mode, sounding to me a very small nuance smoother with relaxed treble. It really is nuanced however to the point where it may be nothing more than a placebo. I even went as far as to measure it today before writing this, thinking I can post a graphic showing how S mode has lower treble response than P mode. However NOPE! I was astounded to see such an utterly minuscule difference on my visual spectrum analysis that it literally would not even be noticeable to the eye.  The process I used was playing white noise through a DAW that I EQ'd to ensure for a flat FR curve before going out, recording the output from my amp into my A/D converter (opposite of a DAC), then analysing the recording of both P / S modes visually with a VST plugin. Even zooming into only 10Khz-20Khz the difference was small enough to fool the eye.

I would be interested to try an external clock sometime down the line, but I would wonder if it's even theoretically possible for a DDC to further improve the sound from a laptop via USB above that of a CD transport via optical connection. I've heard the HDMI connection type is the best however that's not compatible with my DAC.

PS - I've noticed the R8 refers to one of Audio-GD's DAC's. For me I've already tried a new R-1 but even after several weeks burn-in, to me it was not even distantly comparable to the Qutest DAC, also not even to an entry-level DAC I had. I haven't tried the R8 however.


----------



## Toni-Mang

Thank you for your impressions. I referred the measurement hoax to the R8. 
I only tried I2S out and the DI-HE is imho an amazing peace of gear...had an U16 before and i never thought that jriver from a laptop can compete with my PS Audio PWT (also I2S) as a source...easy listenable regarding soundstage wide outside the speakers...


----------



## DecentLevi

What is a good version of the Altera USB blaster to update the firmware? Thanks...


----------



## Pappas3278

DecentLevi said:


> What is a good version of the Altera USB blaster to update the firmware? Thanks...


I went with this one from amazon and haven't had any problem with setup and execution.

https://www.amazon.com/Blaster-Down...keywords=usb+blaster+v2&qid=1595600463&sr=8-1


----------



## DACLadder

@DecentLevi   For Blaster hardware the cheap and plentiful Atmel based ByteBlaster II copy works for a lot of people.  Did not for me however on my 2016 Asus motherboard PC (Win 8.1 upgraded to Win 10).  I use the USB 'Altera Blaster Rev C' clone.

ByteBlaster II clone



USB Blaster Rev C clone


----------



## marcelnl

good info on the DI20, I just added a JCat 1.1 to my NUC and would say that USB execution at the source end can also bring vast improvements!


----------



## PLGA

Just a few minutes with DI-20V4.07Beta1 firmware and I like it very much! 

Better in sound quality over 3.93 for sure. 

I stream all of my music with Tidal hifi and MQA.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jul 24, 2020)

Pappas3278 said:


> I went with this one from amazon and haven't had any problem with setup and execution.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Blaster-Down...keywords=usb+blaster+v2&qid=1595600463&sr=8-1


I got the one you recommended because it was one of the few that were available in the U.S.A. I also got this message from Kingwa when inquiring about it:

_Any version over Quartus II 9.0 can do the update, after update the DI can support DOP._

Does this look like the right version for what he said? And by DOP is he referring to DSD over PCM for the coax output?

It would have been a whole lot easier to update firmware with a USB connection like most devices.


----------



## Zachik

DecentLevi said:


> It would have been a whole lot easier to update firmware with a USB connection like most devices.


If it were easy, how would you separate the boys from the men?!


----------



## Pappas3278

DecentLevi said:


> I got the one you recommended because it was one of the few that were available in the U.S.A. I also got this message from Kingwa when inquiring about it:
> 
> _Any version over Quartus II 9.0 can do the update, after update the DI can support DOP._
> 
> ...


I recommended it because it is the one I have and it _works_.  Now, like most or all of these USB blasters, upon first connecting to your PC, you must go into _Device Manger_ to update the driver. The one that Windows installs doesn't work.  Small but crucial step.


----------



## DACLadder

Best advice when installing Quartus programming software is to have the USB Blaster connected and affirm, toward the end of installation, to load the Blaster drivers.  Reboot afterward and check Device Manager to see if Windows recognizes the Blaster and loads the proper driver.

Any version of Quartus programming software does the same mechanical function.  The issue is finding the right version of Quartus for your PC’s operating system.  Quartus 9.0 will not install on Win 10 and Quartus 16.0 will choke on Win XP.

I installed the latest Quartus 20.2 programming s/w.  16.0 is better looking on screen.  20.2 had the ‘dumbed down’ Windows tablet look.


----------



## FredA (Jul 25, 2020)

Toni-Mang said:


> In P mode, the soundstage is imho not as wide as in s mode...maybe it is also a question of the source. My laptop is not the fastest one.
> S mode and nos on the r8 is for me the perfekt setting, someone could feel that the image of details might be overly sharp but this is how i like it and it is always a question of gear synergy. I leave the r8 and di20he powered on most of the time and after 12 hours, the r8 changes in sound dramatically....the sound is completely decoupled, holographic and unbeleavable wide and deep....amazing for an item with such bad measurements


I would like to see those defamatory a..h... at this measurement forum measure some reputed brands like Moon, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Passlab, Accuphase, etc...
But on the other hand, maybe they are right..  Why bother listening to music when you can wet your pants contemplating a spec sheet? Guys, let's face it, we may just be a bunch of loosers with too much time to spare.


----------



## Jandu

FredA said:


> I would like to see those defamatory a..h... at this measurement forum measure some reputed brands like Moon, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Passlab, Accuphase, etc...
> But on the other hand, maybe they are right..  Why bother listening to music when you can wet your pants at contemplating a spec sheet? Guys, let's face it, we may just be a bunch of loosers with too much time to spare.


Agreed, anyone who has owned and listened to a vacuum tube amp would know that way of measurements don't mean much to define quality of music. 

Anyone who reads and goes by these measures, unfortunately, will eventually learn to ignore. CWong had a video expresses similar sentiments.


----------



## FredA

Jandu said:


> Agreed, anyone who has owned and listened to a vacuum tube amp would know that way of measurements don't mean much to define quality of music.
> 
> Anyone who reads and goes by these measures, unfortunately, will eventually learn to ignore. CWong had a video expresses similar sentiments.


Yes. Some things just can’t be measured. Also, the best mid drivers produces up to 2-3% of distorsion. Speaking of tubes, I’d be curious to hear the HE version of Kingwa’s balanced tube pre. He got a raving review in HTHifi. The guy said it’s the best pre he has ever heard.


----------



## Jandu

Re: vacuum HE1 xlr
The area which the HE9 can improve upon, I think,  would be mid range.  Having some tubes may just do that. However,  in exchange,  one no longer has the ACSS connection from AGD DAC. I think there maybe trade offs. 

Certainly would like to hear from someone  who can do a comparison.


----------



## FredA

Jandu said:


> Re: vacuum HE1 xlr
> The area which the HE9 can improve upon, I think,  would be mid range.  Having some tubes may just do that. However,  in exchange,  one no longer has the ACSS connection from AGD DAC. I think there maybe trade offs.
> 
> Certainly would like to hear from someone  who can do a comparison.


Whatever the setup, synergy is needed, including with cables. I can't complain about the midrange or anything. My loudspeakers have great mids.. Same with the m3.


----------



## Jandu

Synergy certainly is key.  
As a hobby goes,  we always  look for effective way to improve the sound.  I just speculate the likely area of improvement. Until it is compared to a common reference point,  we may not know. Or maybe someone can post the question to Kingwa and see what he says.


----------



## Zachik

Any comparisons to the entry level Denafrips Iris?
Price wise, it is very close to the DI-20 (non-HE)...


----------



## ProLoL

The difference between the DI20 and the DI20HE is that the HE is quieter but sound is similar, right?


----------



## Zachik

ProLoL said:


> The difference between the DI20 and the DI20HE is that the HE is quieter but sound is similar, right?


The HE adds "Regenerative Power Supply", which is basically a better AC handling (to reduce noise from noisy or so-so power source).
Since I use a Power Regenerator - I will probably opt for the $400+ cheaper non-HE version. That, or the Denafrips Iris...


----------



## ProLoL

Zachik said:


> The HE adds "Regenerative Power Supply", which is basically a better AC handling (to reduce noise from noisy or so-so power source).
> Since I use a Power Regenerator - I will probably opt for the $400+ cheaper non-HE version. That, or the Denafrips Iris...



Thanks, yea I know that just wondered if it has the same sound besides the silent levels.


----------



## Zachik

ProLoL said:


> Thanks, yea I know that just wondered if it has the same sound besides the silent levels.


Kingwa confirmed in an e-mail to me that the Regenerative Power Supply of the HE version is the only difference (compared to the 90/98M version of the non-HE).


----------



## nazhmd

Just want to get a consensus re: DI-20HE comparison with the Matrix 2 vs singxer SU2 vs SU6. PSAudio forum thinks that the Matrix 2 with all the extras ( upgraded USB, HDMI, Linear PS) is best thing since slice bread.


----------



## DACLadder (Jul 28, 2020)

@nazhmd How much is the upgraded Matrix 2?

I have 8 DDCs and the DI-20HE is the best sounding. Have not heard the Matrix 2 and Singxer SU-2.  But betters the SU-6 and Gustard U16.

The DI-20 has nice features like S/PDIF input and 10M capability.  Only the SU-2 and U16 are 10M capable.  Interesting the Matrix 2, SU-2, U16, and DI-20+ all use Accusilicon XOs.


----------



## nazhmd

It start with the stock Matrix 2 unit, then they start adding other expensive accessories such as an HDPLEX 300 LPSU or UPTONE LPS 1.2 or SBooster LPS, Revelation Audio Lab HDMI cable, WireWorld Platinum S7 HDMI cable, WireWorld PS USB cable. Almost forgot SR Blue fuses for LPSU and power cords of choice. Basically you need a deep pocket to enjoy the Matrix 2.


----------



## FredA

Yesterday, after @DACLadder mentioning how he liked the serial mode (other users also did), i have decided to give it a try. It is smoother than parallel, with the same resolution if not better, and a flatter balance. I really dig it. 

Still using the SimpleBest psu. I think they took the right approach designing this mini computer psu. You need a fast psu to react to the discontinuous power demand a computer to avoid perturbating power delivery where it matters. So you get what i assume to be fast transitors, an oversized transformer. This makes for very clean dc. For a more steady circuit, like an OCXO,.tweaking the filtering would pay off. In this specific case, the SimpleBest seems to be optimal. My system sounds great with it. Looking forward to Kingwa's fine-tuning of the timing for the external lock.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@nazhmd my friend settled on that xspdif2 after many others.  It's very dynamic and the treble really pops, so he tamed it with a keces LPS + synergistic research power cord, exotic USB cables, ifi in the middle, and there was some talk of a fuse (maybe SR).  He only stopped using it cause his amber3 doesn't have i2s and it's coax input couldn't compete with it's USB input.  

I'm ashamed to say I really like using a 200watt Keces to supply 0.9watt to a w4s recovery





Matrix has a $250 USB card that let's you turn off the power pin?  I could get into that.  But no time soon as AMD broke the DIY collective heart when they announced ryzen3 APUs would only be supplied to the OEM market.  That's actually smart because a few bad combinations of ram, mobo, bios setting, etc and you'll have ruthless 1star reviews destroying the product online.  Best they sort that out before releasing to us animals.


My biggest upgrade as of late was replacing the thing that set my lawn on fire.  I highly recommend a transformer fire.


----------



## nazhmd

I am happy where I am at with the DI-20HE.


----------



## Oepsie

nazhmd said:


> Just want to get a consensus re: DI-20HE comparison with the Matrix 2 vs singxer SU2 vs SU6. PSAudio forum thinks that the Matrix 2 with all the extras ( upgraded USB, HDMI, Linear PS) is best thing since slice bread.


I tried out a matrix 2 with an lps before buying my non-HE DI-20 (90/98). In my system, the matrix seemed quite dull and flat. My gustard u12 actually sounded better, more lively and musical to my ears. The DI-20 is a huge improvement over both in my opinion.


----------



## Oepsie

Wynnytsky said:


> Matrix has a $250 USB card that let's you turn off the power pin?  I could get into that.



I actually borrowed an sbooster vbus2 isolator that does exactly that:

https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/vbus2-isolator/

I was astonished that it actually made an improvement in spite of the fact that I have an ok well-sorted digital chain with a good usb cable (Dyrholm with separated power chord) and a paul hynes lps for the streamer. Even then, cutting the usb power from the streamer end with the vbus2 made an improvement on leading edges of instruments, voice details and dynamics - in the direction of more natural.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Oepsie said:


> I actually borrowed an sbooster vbus2 isolator that does exactly that


I'm guessing the vbus2 is more like one of these passive guys...
https://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Jitterbug-USB-Filter/dp/B00YTA78FW
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1350009-REG/ifi_audio_0306014_isilencer3_0.html
https://www.musicdirect.com/accessories/iFi-iPurifier3-Inline-USB-Audio-Conditioner

The iFi is the only one that claims to have clocks (as does the Matrix USB card).
I haven't tried this newest iPurifier but I had+sold the first two versions.
I'm very much in the less-is-more camp, but I haven't yet been able to live w/o the w4s recovery.
I'm guessing any externally powered USB card would be the answer for me.


----------



## Oepsie

Wynnytsky said:


> I'm guessing the vbus2 is more like one of these passive guys...


Actually, it is not 

It only cuts the power lines, nothing else. And it works fine with the DI-20.

The other devices you link to tries to do something to the usb signal itself (to my understanding at least). I also have the first device, the jitterbug, and in my chain, there is a clear degredation of the sound quality using that device. Less dynamica, a veil effect across the midrange and a clear loss of detail/naturalness.

In my previous digital setup with a laptop and a gustard u12, it however gave a clear improvement, so its definitely system dependant.


----------



## Zachik

Oepsie said:


> I tried out a matrix 2 with an lps before buying my non-HE DI-20 (90/98). In my system, the matrix seemed quite dull and flat. My gustard u12 actually sounded better, more lively and musical to my ears. The DI-20 is a huge improvement over both in my opinion.


I am using a Gustard U12, and very happy to hear the DI-20 (90/98) is a huge improvement!!
Still waiting to see some impressions comparing it to the Denafrips Iris, which cost roughly the same (as non-HE version).


----------



## DACLadder

Does the Denafrips Iris require external 45/49Mhz clocks to function?  There are BNC connectors on the rear to connect these two clocks. I see no oscillators onboard other than a single small oscillator which may be required for the USB interface.  

https://www.denafrips.com/iris


----------



## Zachik

DACLadder said:


> Does the Denafrips Iris require external 45/49Mhz clocks to function?  There are BNC connectors on the rear to connect these two clocks. I see no oscillators onboard other than a single small oscillator which may be required for the USB interface.
> 
> https://www.denafrips.com/iris


No!  Just like the DI-20, it is an optional external clock.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Oepsie said:


> Less dynamica, a veil effect across the midrange and a clear loss of detail/naturalness.


when I had a U12 everything helped (dark cables, tube buffer, ear plugs)
but over the years as the chain improves, your impression above pretty much reflects everything I add to some extent or another -- nothing is free

I wonder why the vbus2 claims to not support either the w4s recovery or intona (the very two tweaks I've used the longest)

These guys claim an advantage to cutting the line at both ends
https://www.madscientist-audio.com/gbu.html
If you have a 2nd vbus2 then let me know your findings


----------



## smodtactical

Has anyone compared di20he + a streamer vs full size u1 ?


----------



## Bech

Wynnytsky said:


> I wonder why the vbus2 claims to not support either the w4s recovery or intona (the very two tweaks I've used the longest)


This is because these units uses the 5v USB power in some way. My former Matrix x-spdif 2 also needed 5 v from USB even though I powered it by a LPSU. 



Wynnytsky said:


> These guys claim an advantage to cutting the line at both ends
> https://www.madscientist-audio.com/gbu.html
> If you have a 2nd vbus2 then let me know your findings


You are only able to use the vbus2 with the "A-end" of a USB-cable. 

https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/vbus2-isolator/


----------



## Wynnytsky

Last night I was reading @FredA's recent impression of the DI20 being smooth in serial mode and so I gave it a try.  Yeah definitely smooth on the attack like dsd64 -- parallel has a crispier bite.  Serial also made my room sound like I'm floating in the center of a sphere with no floor bounce to contend with.

The smoothness prompted be to take my training wheels off...



and that left the 200watt hdplex dedicated to the PC (about 13watt) and the 200watt keces dedicated to the Morion (4watt)




I sold the w4s in the past and ended up buying another.  Last time I tried removing it was before the clock, firmware, litz interconnects, litz power cables, etc, so I either removed the source of the aberration, or something else is addressing it.  I curse the diesel train that sat idling on the track down the block -- this robbed me of the full experience but I heard the potential and am looking forward to putting the new sound through it's paces.


----------



## DACLadder

I have always liked the DI-20HE’s serial data mode slightly more than parallel.  The vocals (pcm) seem to have better attack. Rhythm, pace, imaging are excellent as well. Go with what makes you happy!


----------



## motberg

Wynnytsky said:


> I'm very much in the less-is-more camp, but I haven't yet been able to live w/o the w4s recovery.



+1 on the Recovery.
I have used Recovery with at least 5 different DDC's and always was an improvement (still haven't had the opportunity to get my DI-20 however) .
 I always used a good isolated power source however, and upstream used some isolator, either Intona or Singxer.. 

I have the JCat Femto USB card, PPA v2 and Matrix Element H. I doubt if I could tell them apart when followed by my SIngxer UIP-1/Recovery chain.


----------



## motberg

DACLadder said:


> Does the Denafrips Iris require external 45/49Mhz clocks to function?  There are BNC connectors on the rear to connect these two clocks. I see no oscillators onboard other than a single small oscillator which may be required for the USB interface.
> 
> https://www.denafrips.com/iris


Interesting observation.....
I am pretty sure one idea is to slave the DDC to the OCXO 45/49Mhz clocks within the Terminator +.
Maybe explained here somewhat on page 4 https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips7/4/


----------



## Wynnytsky

motberg said:


> Interesting observation.....
> I am pretty sure one idea is to slave the DDC to the OCXO 45/49Mhz clocks within the Terminator +.
> Maybe explained here somewhat on page 4 https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips7/4/



OMG reads like Denafrips is the NWO for digital audio.  The clock (plus smaller changes) increases the terminator's price by $2k.  In the article it didn't say the Iris would do the slave thing like the Gaia.  It's almost $8k for a TPlus&Gaia, but I'm going to assume that is the last word.

I wonder if there's any merit in matching the signal distance between the oxco<=>r2r and oxco<=>transport?  The article says the TPlus has the oxco within centimetres of the r2r module and I presume the Gaia would be happy with two 1m 75ohm cables.  I guess 50mhz isn't high enough for this to be an issue.  I wonder what freq it does become an issue.


----------



## DACLadder

Wynnytsky said:


> I guess 50mhz isn't high enough for this to be an issue.  I wonder what freq it does become an issue.



Frequency limit for a cable depends upon the cable type and the length of cable used.  The edges of square waves have energy much higher than 50Mhz.  1ns square wave risetimes require at least 1Ghz bandwidth (freq = 1/time).  Same issue with 10M clocks with square wave outputs.  The fundamental frequency is low but the edges of the clock require much, much higher bandwidth.

When comparing coax cables I look for the 1Ghz attenuation which is usually speced at 100ft or m. But if you use no more than a few feet of any cable then they will all perform more closely. 

Some examples of 50 ohm coax comparing at 1Ghz.
RG58, 1Ghz -20dB at 100ft.  (generic rf cable)
RG400, 1Ghz -14.7dB at 100ft.  (double shielded, silver plated)
RG8, 1Ghz -8dB at 100ft. (12mm thick, stiff cable)


----------



## soundlogic

Fellow DI-20 owners, any idea why: when I switch from ”S” mode to “P” mode, I get zero signal? Switching back to “S” mode returns the music. Dead air in P mode. I have re-booted streamer, DAC, and DI-20, 
USB in from my Aries G2 streamer, I2s out to PSA Directstream DAC. I am currently using firmware version V3.93 
Any suggestions or similar experiences?
Thanks; Tim


----------



## FredA (Jul 31, 2020)

soundlogic said:


> Fellow DI-20 owners, any idea why: when I switch from ”S” mode to “P” mode, I get zero signal? Switching back to “S” mode returns the music. Dead air in P mode. I have re-booted streamer, DAC, and DI-20,
> USB in from my Aries G2 streamer, I2s out to PSA Directstream DAC. I am currently using firmware version V3.93
> Any suggestions or similar experiences?
> Thanks; Tim


It's normal to loose the signal for about 3-4s. If the music does not resume afterwards, it's not normal.  You can give 3.99 a try, there were bug fixes done. I am on 4.07b now with no such issue. 4.07b is a beta that should be finalized within the next weeks.


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 1, 2020)

Hey guys I've been mucking around all night trying to understand the process to update DI-20 firmware. I've gotten this USB blaster, Windows 10 and downloaded/installed Quartus 16, which was confusing as heck because 12.1 the manual refers to is no longer available and Quartas is apparently the same as Altera, but has changed hands to Intel FPGA software, then opened up 3-4 separate applications on my screen after install.

Following these instructions, I've connected the USB blaster to the DI-20 update port and to the PC which auto. installed the driver. Then for step 3 on Audio-GD instructions I powered on the DI-20 but "Perform automatic web license retrieval" was not there because I'm using newer version 16, 12 being obsolete, so instead clicked a button in the control panel to activate a trial.

Here's where I'm stuck: Under step 5 for the hardware setup I'm not seeing any USB Blaster on the dropdown menu. Also on the USB list on my device manager I'm only seeing "_Unknown USB Device (Device Descriptor Request Failed)_", in fact 2 duplicate entries saying this. I've tried the steps mentioned by user @DACLadder to manually load the Blaster USB drivers, but every time I get the message that the best driver is already installed. Removing/reinstalling the USB driver just brings up the same set of 2 "Unknown" devices on my device manager. I thought to install the newest Quartas version 20.2 standard version (it took me to 20.1 instead), which made me register on their website with loads of personal information and download a 2.1GB file. I'll try this newer version next, if it's even the way to go in my case??


----------



## FredA

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys I've been mucking around all night trying to understand the process to update DI-20 firmware. I've gotten this USB blaster, Windows 10 and downloaded/installed Quartus 16, which was confusing as heck because 12.1 the manual refers to is no longer available and Quartas is apparently the same as Altera, but has changed hands to Intel FPGA software, then opened up 3-4 separate applications on my screen after install.
> 
> Following these instructions, I've connected the USB blaster to the DI-20 update port and to the PC which auto. installed the driver. Then for step 3 on Audio-GD instructions I powered on the DI-20 but "Perform automatic web license retrieval" was not there because I'm using newer version 16, 12 being obsolete, so instead clicked a button in the control panel to activate a trial.
> 
> Here's where I'm stuck: Under step 5 for the hardware setup I'm not seeing any USB Blaster on the dropdown menu. Also on the USB list on my device manager I'm only seeing "_Unknown USB Device (Device Descriptor Request Failed)_", in fact 2 duplicate entries saying this. I've tried the steps mentioned by user @DACLadder to manually load the Blaster USB drivers, but every time I get the message that the best driver is already installed. Removing/reinstalling the USB driver just brings up the same set of 2 "Unknown" devices on my device manager. I thought to install the newest Quartas version 20.2 standard version (it took me to 20.1 instead), which made me register on their website with loads of personal information and download a 2.1GB file. I'll try this newer version next, if it's even the way to go in my case??


In the device manager, the device should be stated as "Altera USB-blaster", at least with version 12.1. If not, uninstall the driver and then install it  manually, getting it from the altera installation folder.


----------



## DACLadder (Aug 1, 2020)

@DecentLevi  If the Quartus is asking you to apply a license then you downloaded the full design suite.  The standalone programming tool does not require a license.

To uninstall and manually load the USB Blaster driver in 'Device Manager' right-click the "Altera USB Blaster" and select "Uninstall Device".  A new window will open as shown below.  Select "Delete the driver software for this device".  In the same way delete all USB Blaster entries in Dev. Manager.   Reboot.  Follow alternate instructions to manually load 16.0 drivers.

If you are using 20.2 software the path to the drivers is located here (default 20.2 installation location):  C:\IntelFPGApro\20.2\qprogrammer


----------



## Wynnytsky

I tried these on a win10prox64-2004 that never had 12.1 installed ...
Quartus64ProgrammerSetup-16.0.0.211-windows.exe
QuartusProgrammerSetup-20.1.0.711-windows.exe
... and I couldn't get Quartus to see my blaster (though I didn't have the blaster plugged in at the other end)

Denafrips made this process so simple -- I'm jealous
https://www.denafrips.com/firmware-update

Perhaps it would help to disable driver sig enforcement like Denafrips is doing?
Or maybe just find the most recent version of Quartus before Intel touched it.


----------



## soundlogic

FredA said:


> It's normal to loose the signal for about 3-4s. If the music does not resume afterwards, it's not normal.  You can give 3.99 a try, there were bug fixes done. I am on 4.07b now with no such issue. 4.07b is a beta that should be finalized within the next weeks.


Thanks, as always Fed, for your reply. Yes I am aware there is a 3-4s drop when changing between the two modes, but P mode never re-connects. I have been hesitant in upgrading firmware, as I really like how my external clock sounds with V3.93. I have been waiting for Kingwa to come up with a firmware that brings the same or better performance to external clock as 4.07b did for the internal.


----------



## DACLadder

Hmm... I loaded 3.93 firmware and have no issue switching serial/parallel mode. External clock, i2s output.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> Hmm... I loaded 3.93 firmware and have no issue switching serial/parallel mode. External clock, i2s output.



He's using a directstream DAC.  Do you have any non-agd DAC to test with?  (Preferably with i2s)


----------



## FredA

soundlogic said:


> Thanks, as always Fed, for your reply. Yes I am aware there is a 3-4s drop when changing between the two modes, but P mode never re-connects. I have been hesitant in upgrading firmware, as I really like how my external clock sounds with V3.93. I have been waiting for Kingwa to come up with a firmware that brings the same or better performance to external clock as 4.07b did for the internal.


This will come. Be patient.


----------



## DACLadder

@Wynnytsky  No, only have three A-GD DACs.


----------



## UsoppNoKami

i encountered a bug on 4.07b two nights ago... I was testing AES from DI-20HE to my R7HE on a whim as I hadnt used that output for a while.  Roon was playing a 24/192khz PCM file, which was totally fine with the internal clocks, but there was a bad high pitched squeal with the morion 10mhz clock.  Only happened on that max sample rate with AES and the ext clocks, everything else under 24/192khz played fine.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> @Wynnytsky  No, only have three A-GD DACs.


----------



## soundlogic

Thanks Dacladder for confirming that it is not just my rig that this glitch is occurring with.


----------



## DACLadder (Aug 1, 2020)

UsoppNoKami said:


> i encountered a bug on 4.07b two nights ago... I was testing AES from DI-20HE to my R7HE on a whim as I hadnt used that output for a while.  Roon was playing a 24/192khz PCM file, which was totally fine with the internal clocks, but there was a bad high pitched squeal with the morion 10mhz clock.  Only happened on that max sample rate with AES and the ext clocks, everything else under 24/192khz played fine.



I got the low level high pitched squeal today after loading 3.93 f/w.  I just switched the DI’s input from USB to SPDIF input.  Nothing is connected DI’s SPDIF input. Switched back and forth a few times and it stopped.  I get the same squeal sometimes when switching R7 inputs.  Always on an input with nothing connected.  Seems to come and go when selecting inputs.  I put it on my bug list.


----------



## DACLadder

@soundlogic  No problem.  I tried switching 3 or 4 times.  Does the Directstream DAC needs I2S MCLK?  That could be messed up and would never know it with Kingwa’s asynchronous firmware DACs.


----------



## FredA

UsoppNoKami said:


> i encountered a bug on 4.07b two nights ago... I was testing AES from DI-20HE to my R7HE on a whim as I hadnt used that output for a while.  Roon was playing a 24/192khz PCM file, which was totally fine with the internal clocks, but there was a bad high pitched squeal with the morion 10mhz clock.  Only happened on that max sample rate with AES and the ext clocks, everything else under 24/192khz played fine.


Kingwa has not optimized the timing yet of the ext. clock.


----------



## soundlogic

DACLadder said:


> @soundlogic  No problem.  I tried switching 3 or 4 times.  Does the Directstream DAC needs I2S MCLK?  That could be messed up and would never know it with Kingwa’s asynchronous firmware DACs.


The Directstream does not have a clock input. As far as the Directstream working with other DI's that incorporate an external clock...they=Mutec, Singxter, and Gustard, have all worked fine with PSA I2s I/O.


----------



## soundlogic

Updated to V4.07b, both S and P modes are working, and internal clock is comparable to external. Looking forward to optimized firmware for external clock.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys I got the Altera USB blaster updated in the device manager. Last time it was showing up under "other" devices instead of under Universal Serial Bus Controllers. But now I'm still having trouble with the Quartas software. I just replaced the "pro" with the "standard" version of Quartas 20.1 but it still didn't seem like the version you guys were using, having no automatic license retrieval or hardware setup button. So now I'm downloading the "lite" version and it's a whopping 3x larger at 6GB! I'm using the link provided in the DI-20 update instructions which redirects to this link. Is there another link I should be using to download another standalone version that you guys are using?


----------



## FredA (Aug 2, 2020)

Just run the programmer with the corresponding path in your installation.

There is a distribution with just the programmer in it.

"C:\altera\12.1\qprogrammer\bin\quartus_pgmw.exe"


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 2, 2020)

Finally succeeded on the DI-20 firmware update to current V.407_Beta1. To do this you've gotta have programmer experience to find all the details not mentioned on the Audio-GD instructions... whole process stole 7 hours of my weekend I wish I could have back!
So far it seems to have been worth the trouble! This time I think I can actually hear an improvement in P (parallel) mode, seeming perhaps more lifelike / natural than S (serial) mode, and overall it seems it must have improved so much that as another user mentioned its' internal clock could be up to par with an external clock! Well that's speculative on my part not having tried an ext. clock, but I also agree with others that I have no desire to go back after this firmware update!

I have encountered an issue however that when switching to S mode now I usually get either a continuous background hiss or much louder distortion squelch.


----------



## DecentLevi

Update, after a power-cycle of my whole sound system including DI-20 and waiting about 5 minutes, seems the noise-floor issue with the DI-20 has subsided. And finally DSD over coax cables are working now. I'm only listening on my semi-detailed HD-650's for now but so far it could very well be the best sonic performance I've heard at home. A really amazing purity and transparency, texture, with hologrpahic soundstage and robust-ness to boot. Well a lot of that is also thanks to my Qutest DAC with aftermarket LPS.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> Kingwa has not optimized the timing yet of the ext. clock.



Will the optimization improve sound or just solve glitches?


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Will the optimization improve sound or just solve glitches?


There will be bug fixes too of course.


----------



## ProLoL (Aug 5, 2020)

Ordered the DI-20 with the Accusilicon 90/98M to be hooked to my R2R11 via I2S, would be lovely to compare it against my previous U16, SU2, D10 and U12.

I hope there aren't any mods / flavors to choose from and plays music as is.

PS: I've read that there are _parallel & series_ mode. What is the consensus on which better and why?


----------



## Zachik

ProLoL said:


> Ordered the DI-20 with the Accusilicon 90/98M to be hooked to my R2R11 via I2S, would be lovely to compare it against my previous U16, SU2, D10 and U12.


Very interested to read your impressions vs. U12 (which I currently own and use)...


----------



## ProLoL

Zachik said:


> Very interested to read your impressions vs. U12 (which I currently own and use)...



Sadly I couldn't use U12's i2s output cause it's configured to be used with gustard products. The DI20 will be the end of chasing DDCs.


----------



## Zachik

ProLoL said:


> Sadly I couldn't use U12's i2s output cause it's configured to be used with gustard products. The DI20 will be the end of chasing DDCs.


I'm using the spdif rca out from the U12. I guess I was hoping that you could compare spdif between the two.


----------



## ProLoL

Zachik said:


> I'm using the spdif rca out from the U12. I guess I was hoping that you could compare spdif between the two.



The U16 sounded better but buggy, the SU2 also sounded better but via headphones, my speaker system loved the U12 more than the SU2.


----------



## Oepsie (Aug 5, 2020)

Zachik said:


> I'm using the spdif rca out from the U12. I guess I was hoping that you could compare spdif between the two.


I came from a U12 which sounded amazing in my (speaker) system. The U12 is very sensitive to cables (both RCA and USB), so I experimented a lot with this in connection to my dac (Electrocompaniet ECD-1 which is also very sensitive - no noise/signal handling at all it seems - but this also means that benefits are huge when fiddling with the digital components  ).

Sadly, I had problems connecting the U12 to my SOtM streamer; the connection with my usb cable was highly sensitive, resulting in clicks and pops, when the connectors were no 'just right'. I had no problems with other cables. But when connection was good, the sound was astonishing.

In search for a DDC, I also tried a matrix spdif2 ddc with a linear power supply and the matrix seemed dull and quite flat in comparison with the u12 in my system. This was strange because the guy I borrowed it from, it sounded amazing in his system and when we tried my U12 at his place, it was the U12 that sounded rather off.. Guess system synergy is important also with DDCs 

So I was very happy with my U12!

Still, the improvement from the U12 to the DI-20 was BIG with the ECD-1 DAC. Much more natural and detailed sound without compromising the musicality, PRAT and bass impact. Much more texture to voices and instruments, especially with bass and mid-bass. In my setup, the U12 was great with symbilance (sorry, don't know if this is the right word - the reverb of instruments like guitars and piano) and the DI-20 betters the U12 also in this aspect! Even more natural.

So I'm very happy with the step from U12 to DI-20


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 5, 2020)

Oepsie said:


> I came from a U12 which sounded amazing in my (speaker) system. The U12 is very sensitive to cables (both RCA and USB), so I experimented a lot with this in connection to my dac (Electrocompaniet ECD-1 which is also very sensitive - no noise/signal handling at all it seems - but this also means that benefits are huge when fiddling with the digital components  ).
> 
> Sadly, I had problems connecting the U12 to my SOtM streamer; the connection with my usb cable was highly sensitive, resulting in clicks and pops, when the connectors were no 'just right'. I had no problems with other cables. But when connection was good, the sound was astonishing.
> 
> ...


Promising words, thanks. Yeah the DI-20 is a sure shot performer for me, even over RCA coax cable which is said to be not quite as good as its' HDMI connection. Have you tried the newest firmware for the DI-20? V4.07. Although a direct A/B wasn't possible to the former firmware it shipped with new about a month ago, it's for me just a really satisfying, engulfing sound and I have no desire to revert back. It does have an occasional glitch with static noise injected which can be remedied by a whole system reset and waiting for a few minutes, but it really has me impressed as if the whole DDC has transformed in some way. Firmware update does require an (inexpensive) external hardware device and took me quite some time to figure out, but it was my first experience with a firmware upgrade other than over USB.

Probably some of us can work together to draw up a much easier firmware upgrade guide. The one listed on the Audio-GD site references outdated software and leaves out at least one step. If I knew the simple / concise way, it would have only took me 5-10 min. instead of 7 hours roaming around lost in cyberspace and trying the wrong things. The "actual" firmware transmission takes only like 10 seconds after the hardware / software is finally set up.

But like has been said, the newest firmware may be more about optimizing performance with its' internal clock so it (may?) be more recommended for people without an external clock.


----------



## smodtactical

Guys trying to do the update. Going to grab 20.1 as the 12.1 is not there (Thanks DecentLevi for the info). 

Should I get quartus prime + one of the device downloads or the whole package?


----------



## smodtactical

Its asking me to register for an intel account to download ?


----------



## DecentLevi

AFAIK you just need the smaller versions like Quartas Prime individual not combined files, and if you scroll down to oldest avail. versions like v13 they still have "web" versions similar to what's mentioned in the Audio-GD firmware update guide. And this step may help you:



FredA said:


> Just run the programmer with the corresponding path in your installation.
> 
> There is a distribution with just the programmer in it.
> 
> "C:\altera\12.1\qprogrammer\bin\quartus_pgmw.exe"



For anyone else, here's two other pertinent links:
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN_update.htm (semi-outdated)


----------



## smodtactical

DecentLevi said:


> AFAIK you just need the smaller versions like Quartas Prime individual not combined files, and if you scroll down to oldest avail. versions like v13 they still have "web" versions similar to what's mentioned in the Audio-GD firmware update guide. And this step may help you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you have to register for an intel account to download ?


----------



## smodtactical

Ok well I registered for an intel account and none of the download links work. I keep clicking the blue download icon next to quartus II software and nothing happens. I tried 2 different browsers and multiple versions?


----------



## smodtactical

When I open in a new tab it says 'about:blank#blocked' in the tab itself. And in another browser it says void(0) for the actual link? What is up with intel?


----------



## smodtactical

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/programmable/downloads/download-center.html

Is anyone else able to download from there right now ?


----------



## FredA (Aug 6, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/programmable/downloads/download-center.html
> 
> Is anyone else able to download from there right now ?


They may have temp. problems. @DACLadder has setup a download link, it is linked somewhere in this thread, a few pages behind i think.


----------



## Jandu

smodtactical said:


> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/programmable/downloads/download-center.html
> 
> Is anyone else able to download from there right now ?


https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1


----------



## smodtactical

Jandu said:


> https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1



So I did install that but that doesn't have the quartus II program that is in the guide?

This screen:


----------



## smodtactical

Oh sorry! ok I got it. Thank you!!!


----------



## smodtactical

So I know many of you have been doing source files/music service -> streamer -> DI20HE -> Dac. I was doing this as well with u1 mini (ext psu keces p8) -> [via coax] -> DI20HE -> Terminator. But since using the I2S out I was shocked to find that just doing usb from my noisy gaming pc into the di20he and then i2s into my DAC.. I was getting far superior sound quality than if I included Lumin u1 mini in the chain! I really couldn't believe it. 

With the DI20HE alone via direct usb the sound is more transparent, more detailed, there is increased sound stage and most importantly the music is much more dynamic and explosive especially in the bass. This was heard with both HD800S and NS5000. I am really shocked since so many others were getting benefit from the streamer in front of the DI20HE. I was as well until I think I started using the I2s output. Just amazing. It just shows you how much of a genius Kingwa is.


----------



## jimmychan

You could try Rpi4B USB > DI20HE i2s > DAC. It should be better than a PC. 
Why don’t you try the USB out of your Lumin U1 mini?


----------



## smodtactical

jimmychan said:


> You could try Rpi4B USB > DI20HE i2s > DAC. It should be better than a PC.
> Why don’t you try the USB out of your Lumin U1 mini?



Jimmy I tried usb out and coax out of the u1 mini into di20he, in both scenarios the di20he alone easily beat the combo. Crazy! 

I want to try pi now but can't find it, dang it.


----------



## ProLoL

Re asking the question:  I've read that there are _parallel & series_ mode. What is the consensus on which is better and why?


----------



## smodtactical

Found the pi and did the same comparison. Same result. DI20HE alone was superior and it wasn't a slight difference. You can listen and immediately hear the difference. I am so confused!


----------



## ProLoL

smodtactical said:


> Found the pi and did the same comparison. Same result. DI20HE alone was superior and it wasn't a slight difference. You can listen and immediately hear the difference. I am so confused!



Also, if you got a dirty pc, which most of them are, try to block the 5v pin on the USB then connect to the DI20HE. I would be using it like that.


----------



## jimmychan (Aug 7, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Found the pi and did the same comparison. Same result. DI20HE alone was superior and it wasn't a slight difference. You can listen and immediately hear the difference. I am so confused!


When you said DI alone, do you mean using PC as a input to the DI? The PC is better than Lumin or Rpi4, that’s crazy. I thought It was equal or less.


----------



## FredA

ProLoL said:


> Re asking the question:  I've read that there are _parallel & series_ mode. What is the consensus on which is better and why?


There is not consensus. Especially with 4.07b. Parallel is more detailed, accurate, less organic. With 4.07b, i prefer serial. With 3.93, i prefered parallel. Once 4.07b is completed, parallel should be on top in my setup. We'll see.


----------



## Jandu

ProLoL said:


> Re asking the question:  I've read that there are _parallel & series_ mode. What is the consensus on which is better and why?


It's system, music, version and taste dependent. Why don't you try it out and let us know.


----------



## ProLoL

Jandu said:


> It's system, music, version and taste dependent. Why don't you try it out and let us know.



Once I receive my unit, for sure.
I tend to do my research prior to unit arrival so I'd know what to expect.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@smodtactical If you have a laptop laying around then try using that as a client (w/ and w/o P8) and the experience should be consistent with your rpi4 and lumin.

also I assume your gaming computer is a DLNA or roon server?  I think JRiver has some horrific defaults for sharing audio (as if we were streaming to our phones and had limited bandwidth)

if JRiver is a server you should confirm there's no lossy compression going on there...





and if JRiver is a client, then you turn it off here...


----------



## ZERUNG (Aug 7, 2020)

My 2c. 
Looooooong Burn in is required for the 20HE. The sound from the ACSS is better than the Std. 
The sound is indeed amazing with Capital 'A'. 
The Ultrarendu as a streamer was useless. Just the Mac Mini was all that was required. 

I have a new Auralic Aries 2.1, which stock was not at par with the Mac Mini, but had some more fat in the low register....So I will not burn and burn the 2.1. 

The 2.1 with the 20HE is better than no 20HE. 
In 2 weeks time I will now if the 20HE is so good that it wants to go fully monty?

Indeed Kingwa is the King!


----------



## FredA (Aug 7, 2020)

ZERUNG said:


> My 2c.
> Looooooong Burn in is required for the 20HE. The sound from the ACSS is better than the Std.
> The sound is indeed amazing with Capital 'A'.
> The Ultrarendu as a streamer was useless. Just the Mac Mini was all that was required.
> ...


What would be full monty?


----------



## Wynnytsky

@ZERUNG nice speakers!


----------



## ZERUNG (Aug 7, 2020)

FredA said:


> What you be full monty?


I am dreading that just the 20HE with the Mac is better than (With) the Aries 2.1 streamer....

I also meant to say that I will 'Deep Burn' the Aries 2.1. I hope that will bring out its capabilities....


----------



## ZERUNG

Wynnytsky said:


> @ZERUNG nice speakers!


You have nice taste.   
I also have a full crossover upgrade. Which is utterly important for these wonderful speakers!


----------



## Wynnytsky

ZERUNG said:


> I also have a full crossover upgrade. Which is utterly important for these wonderful speakers!



This is the 20lbs of 3way xover I stuck to each speaker (120 dB per octave slopes!)
For hookup wire I experimented with diff guage tinned copper from Duelund before returning to my favorite Belden 9497


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 7, 2020)

I thought this may be of interest:
Just finished a fairly thorough critical listening comparison between my DI-20 USB rig and my CD transport, and seemingly against all odds the DI-20 one-upped the CD transport! Playing the same song at the same time on both systems into the Qutest DAC I was able to rapidly switch between inputs. The differences were very subtle. Both sounded almost identical with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING lacking on the DI-20 system. The differences I could discern were that the DI-20 system sounded modestly more true-to-life or organic, with a modestly larger soundstage. And not a bloated soundstage or anything of the like. This is no small feat I tell you, because my CD transport, though mid-fi is a very decent model and brand (Teac CD-P650B), with a very good Toslink optical cable directly to the DAC (this 1300 strand optical cable). By contrast the CD transport sounded ever-so 'fuzzy' like details were faintly 'smeared', something that can only be noticed with a fast A/B as it holds its' weight very well.

Along with feeding my DI-20 an improved USB signal with the help of both iFi Micro USB iPurifier 2 and Wyrd, I'm also using a state-of-the-art RCA cable. Recently I had a friend put together an RCA cable, DIY project to save vs. commercially available; using Neotech Nei-2001 UP OCC single/mono crystal silver cable which can without exaggeration be said to be the best wire in existence for electron transfer. Check out the review of this cable here, and mine used even better RCA connectors than theirs, also from Neotech. A large part of what made my DI-20 system finally overtake the CD transport could have also been due to the V4.07 firmware update, before which the transport had won the comparison. @smodtactical did you notice any improvements with the update?


----------



## ZERUNG (Aug 8, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> This is the 20lbs of 3way xover I stuck to each speaker (120 dB per octave slopes!)
> For hookup wire I experimented with diff guage tinned copper from Duelund before returning to my favorite Belden 9497


Wow. Quite something @Wynnytsky . I bet it sound amazing?


Mine is a full cast copper from Jupiter Condenser.
The Autotransformer and the likes from Dave Slagle and the resistors from Duelund.

Still in a wine box...a travesty. soon I will transfer this inside the box.

Not many speakers allow this amount of flexibility and enjoyment?


----------



## Wynnytsky

ZERUNG said:


> Wow. Quite something @Wynnytsky . I bet it sound amazing?
> 
> 
> Mine is a full cast copper from Jupiter Condenser.
> ...



I don't think the autoformer in my xover is anything special.  It's jumped to discard 6 dB (sob) of my B&C DCM50 midrange so bass horns can catch up.  I asked Volti at a show (axpona or ny) how much they attenuated their mid that day and they said 10 dB!

Around 2014 someone loaned me a super basic slagleformer in a wood box that left a life-long impression on me.  It was one of those moments where you go from a clean window to kicking the window wide open, or maybe removing the whole wall.  This might have been it...




I had my r2r7 a full year when David visited me in 2018.  I think he brought an Emia unit (black cube, copper wiring) that could bump up the sound a few dB (didn't match my fond memory of that tiny slagleformer).  That day I had a friend's Bespoke to compare it to (0 dB gain) and by comparison the Bespoke was a resolution extravaganza (still using it today).


----------



## iFi audio

DecentLevi said:


> Along with feeding my DI-20 an improved USB signal with the help of both iFi Micro USB iPurifier 2



Great to hear our iPurifier2 it serves you well. If I may ask, what's your CD device?


----------



## smodtactical

DecentLevi said:


> I thought this may be of interest:
> Just finished a fairly thorough critical listening comparison between my DI-20 USB rig and my CD transport, and seemingly against all odds the DI-20 one-upped the CD transport! Playing the same song at the same time on both systems into the Qutest DAC I was able to rapidly switch between inputs. The differences were very subtle. Both sounded almost identical with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING lacking on the DI-20 system. The differences I could discern were that the DI-20 system sounded modestly more true-to-life or organic, with a modestly larger soundstage. And not a bloated soundstage or anything of the like. This is no small feat I tell you, because my CD transport, though mid-fi is a very decent model and brand (Teac CD-P650B), with a very good Toslink optical cable directly to the DAC (this 1300 strand optical cable). By contrast the CD transport sounded ever-so 'fuzzy' like details were faintly 'smeared', something that can only be noticed with a fast A/B as it holds its' weight very well.
> 
> Along with feeding my DI-20 an improved USB signal with the help of both iFi Micro USB iPurifier 2 and Wyrd, I'm also using a state-of-the-art RCA cable. Recently I had a friend put together an RCA cable, DIY project to save vs. commercially available; using Neotech Nei-2001 UP OCC single/mono crystal silver cable which can without exaggeration be said to be the best wire in existence for electron transfer. Check out the review of this cable here, and mine used even better RCA connectors than theirs, also from Neotech. A large part of what made my DI-20 system finally overtake the CD transport could have also been due to the V4.07 firmware update, before which the transport had won the comparison. @smodtactical did you notice any improvements with the update?



Nothing night and day but its hard to say because i can't easily go back and forth. All I can say is it sounds truly wonderful.



jimmychan said:


> When you said DI alone, do you mean using PC as a input to the DI? The PC is better than Lumin or Rpi4, that’s crazy. I thought It was equal or less.



Jimmy I know man, its crazy! It beat rpi4 + di20he and u1 mini (with ext keces p8 and ghent dc cable) + di20he. And it was so obvious the transparency and especially the dynamic range and contrast. Like it wasn't even close! And this is just with an audio sensibility usb cable out of the front of my gaming pc! Its just so confusing. I wonder if my ethernet bridge which is quite basic is screwing things up?


----------



## Wynnytsky

@smodtactical I think you should get this and report back here
https://www.newegg.com/evga-nu-audio/p/N82E16829276001


----------



## mudhole

Hi everyone. Is there anybody using  coax input to I2S output over 4.07 or 3.99 firmware? I got my 49/98 non HE three weeks ago. The coax to i2s has no sound from day one. I tried all firmware, only the 3.32 has decent sound, the 3.93 works once then only has cracked sound since I tried to switch players. The 3.99 and 4.07 never had any sound. 

My DAC is Audio GD reference 1 moded to HDMI i2s input with great help from Kingwa. The i2s is my only input. I have more than 500 CDs  so that the CD player is important for me. I have an Audio GD Di-U8 DDC to switch between auralic aries and Oppo 103 CD player, it works no problem. 

Now my Di 20 was powered more than 500hrs, still the same situation. I hope it's the firmware's bug instead of my Di 20's issue. There's more than 10 emails between Kingwa and me, he didn't give me an  exact, answer just said use the 3.32 for now. But for my ears, the 4.07 is way better than 3.32, the 3.32 is just have a stronger bass than di-u8 , smaller soundstage, less transparent.

I used Di 20 coax input to di-u8 coax input to  DAC i2s input, both spdif outputs of  Oppo 103 and Aries are working under all firmwares. That means  coax to coax  works, and my CD player and cables have no issues.

Hope Kingwa could figure out the issue.


----------



## smodtactical

mudhole said:


> Hi everyone. Is there anybody using  coax input to I2S output over 4.07 or 3.99 firmware? I got my 49/98 non HE three weeks ago. The coax to i2s has no sound from day one. I tried all firmware, only the 3.32 has decent sound, the 3.93 works once then only has cracked sound since I tried to switch players. The 3.99 and 4.07 never had any sound.
> 
> My DAC is Audio GD reference 1 moded to HDMI i2s input with great help from Kingwa. The i2s is my only input. I have more than 500 CDs  so that the CD player is important for me. I have an Audio GD Di-U8 DDC to switch between auralic aries and Oppo 103 CD player, it works no problem.
> 
> ...



Really strange, so coax in and i2s out with latest firmware doesn't work? And you tried to downgrade the firmware and that got it working? Seems like some sort of i2s-firmware interaction problem. I wonder if another cable might help? Do you have another hdmi cable?


----------



## mudhole

It only works properly with 3.32.  I tried 3.93 first time, it worked with Oppo 103, when I switched to Aries's coax, it had a broken sound with Pops. After 1 week burn in, I tried the 3.93 with Aries first, it sounded ok, then I switched to Oppo, the broken sound coming again. After that, it's always coming with broken sound no matter with which player. 

I am using a nordost silver shadow coax cable. And l also tried another cheaper coax cable, but I never tried another HDMI cable.


----------



## mudhole

I just tried another cheaper HDMI Cable, no sound with 4.07.
Kingwa doesn't think it because of the firmware, just told me to use 3.32 for now. But once I lused to the SQ of 4.07, I can't live with the 3.32 any more.
I just want to know if there are more people experienced the same issue?


----------



## DecentLevi

Don't be a "_lused"_er and fall into a "_mudhole_",  you'll find a workaround - like the way I had to custom order a RCA to BNC cable to make the DI-20 work with the inputs of my Qutest DAC.


----------



## mudhole

DecentLevi said:


> Don't be a "_lused"_er and fall into a "_mudhole_",  you'll find a workaround - like the way I had to custom order a RCA to BNC cable to make the DI-20 work with the inputs of my Qutest DAC.


I know  there will be a solution since Kingwa do care his costumers and products.  We had more than 30 emails back and forth while I had trouble with my my reference 1 i2s upgrade. I am still grateful for that.


----------



## jimmychan

mudhole said:


> I just tried another cheaper HDMI Cable, no sound with 4.07.
> Kingwa doesn't think it because of the firmware, just told me to use 3.32 for now. But once I lused to the SQ of 4.07, I can't live with the 3.32 any more.
> I just want to know if there are more people experienced the same issue?



You are not alone. I have the same problem with my Ref. 1 HDMI mod.


----------



## mudhole

jimmychan said:


> You are not alone. I have the same problem with my Ref. 1 HDMI mod.


----------



## jazzbug

My DI20HE is USB in i2S out to PS Audio DSD. First I changed from Parallel to Series, I thought it's smoother. 
Yesterday I had bit headache and Serires sounded bit irrigating, then I switched back to Parallel. I thought there's more body, low end and articulate, hence bit more engaging this time. 
It might sound different to me next time


----------



## smodtactical

DI20HE is a miracle machine man jesus. It makes me Atticus and 800S sound utterly mind blowing through my HE9. I just cannot believe the detail, nuance, transparency.


----------



## ZERUNG (Aug 10, 2020)

My firmware is still the old one. I use both in and out I2S. The output that I now use is via ACSS, which to me is superior, as also stated by Kingwa.

I am feeding in the I2S from my Auralic Aries 2i.

The HDMI does not work as my DAC uses single ended one and the DI20HE is not. I installed a converter for the HDMI signal, but no sound despite all the permutation and combination possible in the 20HE. If the ACSS is so good, then the HDMI (When it will work) must be absolutely out of the world?

I love my Tesla. I love my Lampi and now I love the 20HE. Not many unconditional loves around, for sure.....


----------



## Jackula

jazzbug said:


> My DI20HE is USB in i2S out to PS Audio DSD. First I changed from Parallel to Series, I thought it's smoother.
> Yesterday I had bit headache and Serires sounded bit irrigating, then I switched back to Parallel. I thought there's more body, low end and articulate, hence bit more engaging this time.
> It might sound different to me next time



Same here. Have been listening for longer without fatigue after switching back to parallel. 

Thought I was the only one, now I'm glad I'm not alone!


----------



## FredA

For those waiting for me to compare the usbridge to the rpi4b+, i will be able to do the comparison soon. I did not want to stick heatsinks to my pi as the chassis i had ordered for it had heat dissipation built-in. So should be this weekend (if Canada Post stops paranoing with the long-gone threat and gets back to speed).  Given how good the di20he is, that will be interesting to see how big a difference there is. Also, with the SimpleBest psu, the gap could be even narrower. If the pi ever wins, i will install it inside the Simple Best probably.  We'll see.


----------



## jimmychan

With DI in place, I think the different is marginal. 
We can save a lot of money from buying expensive sources.


----------



## jazzbug

I'm going to upgrade i2S cable as Kingwa recommended it's more apparent affect than USB cable. 
My option might be from Tubulus Argentus RAL or Phasure HDMI cable. 
But if anyone would kind to share their HDMI cable exprience please?


----------



## ProLoL

jazzbug said:


> I'm going to upgrade i2S cable as Kingwa recommended it's more apparent affect than USB cable.
> My option might be from Tubulus Argentus RAL or Phasure HDMI cable.
> But if anyone would kind to share their HDMI cable exprience please?



Using cheap hdmi will give that smooth euphonic undetailed sound. I use the old revision QED reference 1 which is out of production for years but brings a very detailed and balanced sound. Bought it after some research. I think the newest QED would do also fine, they never disappointed me with their speaker cable / interconnects.


----------



## ProLoL (Aug 16, 2020)

Just received my Di20 90/98M hooked it to my R2R11 via I2S, wowow!!
It's the most natural sound I've ever heard, not the most resolute as it's still the R2R11.
My mind needs to adjust to the level of realism.


----------



## FredA

jazzbug said:


> I'm going to upgrade i2S cable as Kingwa recommended it's more apparent affect than USB cable.
> My option might be from Tubulus Argentus RAL or Phasure HDMI cable.
> But if anyone would kind to share their HDMI cable exprience please?


I use this. Excellent cable. 

https://www.amazon.com/Bonded-Pair-...eywords=Series+fe+hdmi&qid=1597576974&sr=8-10


----------



## DACLadder

FredA said:


> I use this. Excellent cable.
> https://www.amazon.com/Bonded-Pair-...eywords=Series+fe+hdmi&qid=1597576974&sr=8-10


I use the same cable except 1 ft. version. Made with Belden FE cable stock.
Here is a spec sheet...  https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/sfespec.pdf


----------



## Jackula

FredA said:


> I use this. Excellent cable.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bonded-Pair-...eywords=Series+fe+hdmi&qid=1597576974&sr=8-10



I have yet to find a HDMI cable I'm completely happy with. However I would rank my cables in this order:

WireWorld Silver Starlight 30cm, slight treble glare, my favourite overall.
WireWorld Chroma 60cm, soundstage isn't great being my longest cable, Kingwa's favourite cable.
WireWorld Island 30cm, grainy sounding.
Belden FE 30cm, slow and muddy, moderate treble glare.
Moshou 50cm, huge treble glare, grainy, my worst cable overall.

USB cable also made a big improvement for me, connecting my streamer to my DI-20HE. As do power cables especially on the DAC and power amps.

Getting the HE1 in a few weeks, my opinion might change by then, it's all about synergy.


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> I use the same cable except 1 ft. version. Made with Belden FE cable stock.
> Here is a spec sheet...  https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/sfespec.pdf


I also have the one-foot.


----------



## jazzbug

thanks everyone for the HDMI input   
I thought Kingwa also said different USB is not as big impact as the HDMI, so I just use something $20...


----------



## ProLoL

USB is also crucial, on one setup, the supra usb is unbearable to listen with it's flat bright uninspiring sound, on other setup it's alright.  YMMV.


----------



## jazzbug

ProLoL said:


> USB is also crucial, on one setup, the supra usb is unbearable to listen with it's flat bright uninspiring sound, on other setup it's alright.  YMMV.


Thx ProLoL, it seems USB cable is anther item besides HDMI cable. There are too many options with some really expensive tag


----------



## Jackula

ProLoL said:


> USB is also crucial, on one setup, the supra usb is unbearable to listen with it's flat bright uninspiring sound, on other setup it's alright.  YMMV.



To be fair the Supra USB does sound a bit more open than stock USB cables, but you're right it is quite bright. It also has no bass (like stock USB cables) and I found it rather grainy sounding.


----------



## Jackula

jazzbug said:


> Thx ProLoL, it seems USB cable is anther item besides HDMI cable. There are too many options with some really expensive tag



If you can solder, you can build one for not much money. I built one myself for about $30 worth of parts. Just need to be a bit careful as the plastics on the plugs can melt easily.


----------



## tumpux

Jackula said:


> If you can solder, you can build one for not much money. I built one myself for about $30 worth of parts. Just need to be a bit careful as the plastics on the plugs can melt easily.



Can we see what it looks like?


----------



## Jackula

tumpux said:


> Can we see what it looks like?


----------



## Oepsie

If you make your own usb, try without the two power lines.. the di-20 can handle it, and it gives a nice improvement. Much more natural sounding.


----------



## ProLoL (Aug 18, 2020)

Oepsie said:


> If you make your own usb, try without the two power lines.. the di-20 can handle it, and it gives a nice improvement. Much more natural sounding.


 
+1


----------



## Jackula (Aug 18, 2020)

Oepsie said:


> If you make your own usb, try without the two power lines.. the di-20 can handle it, and it gives a nice improvement. Much more natural sounding.



I think you are referring to the power and ground lines, both can be noisy sure, however the 5v is the most noisy and is required for the initial negotiation. Once it's all hooked up you can disconnect the 5v line, but will need to hook it back up whenever you're restarting your streamer or DI.

As for the ground line, as long as it's isolated at the upstream, it won't affect anything because there won't be any current flowing through it.


----------



## smodtactical

Im just using an amazon 8k shielded HDMI cable. I got a chroma 6 coming, looking forward to compare.


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 19, 2020)

I've been encountering some chronic issues with 4.07 firmware on my DI-20 98/90M version. Ever since the update, I've had to deal with all kinds of noisefloor and even painfully loud squeeling sounds from the DI-20. I've mentioned it before, hoping it was just on occasional glitch; at the time I posted that it's just a white-noise static background sound occuring sometimes which can be abated by powering down your whole chain and waiting a few minutes; an update on troubleshooting now is that basically changing any front panel settings can resolve it (switch between P - S modes or switching from USB to coax input and back again with a simple push of the "selector" button).

Unfortunately, not only does it sometimes takes multiple times mucking with cycling between front panel settings and returning again, but it happens in a variety of situations:

*initial power-up:* often there is a substantial noisefloor akin to white noise behind the music (around 10db of it), only while a 'song' is playing but not when paused so sometimes it takes me a few minutes to even notice it, depending on the dynamic range of the recording I'm listening to; becoming audible during brief gaps between sounds
*DSD (.dsf) playback:* this is absolutely NOTORIOUS!! closing the Foobar audio player during DSD playback results in a squeeling sound that can be ear-piercing depending on the volume you're listening to
- skipping around within a DSD file can cause this too
- a solution _seems _to be actually pausing or stopping the playback vs. just closing the media player
*Any random time *you resume listening after having the DI-20 already on, there's a chance you will get either full-volume overbearing white noise, or varying amounts like 10db interjected or even perhaps half that and can take a while to notice it's there until you get a momentary break in sounds from your song.
*During a whole session* it's liable to go completely unnoticed until there's a completely silent portion on the track you're listening to and with isolating closed-back headphones in a quiet room. This is very hard to detect because it's a very faint background hiss and is one the most frustrating, that you don't even notice this gremlin in the background unless in special circumstances.
This seems to occur approximately 20% of the time when starting up music, about 90% of the time with DSD files (per above detail), and maybe 30% of the time on initial start-up. The main trigger seems to be powering on, switching settings or pressing "stop" on any audio file, though it does seem to behave better when simply pressing pause. Luckily that whole sessions background noise I have also tested to be solve-able with the same setting mucking about as mentioned above, and it takes a special listening environment to be sure it's been mitigated.

Furthermore I've tested the above noise issues to be present on both my Qutest DAC connected via RCA-to-BNC coax cable, as well as with my iFi Micro iDSD Black Label DAC connected by standard RCA coax cable. This issue may be present only with the coax (S/PDIF) connection type, however for me I won't know otherwise because that is the only compatible input type on both of my DACs.

At this point I'm still just dealing with it because in fact, the sound I'm getting from v4.07 is aplomb and quite impressive with every genre, headphone and amp I've paired it with... but come on, this flaw is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE and even hazardous to your hearing. I will send Kingwa a link to this post and keep my fingers crossed he can release a firmware update that keeps the same EXTRAORDINARY sound, but with the noisefloor issues solved.


----------



## Oepsie

Jackula said:


> I think you are referring to the power and ground lines, both can be noisy sure, however the 5v is the most noisy and is required for the initial negotiation. Once it's all hooked up you can disconnect the 5v line, but will need to hook it back up whenever you're restarting your streamer or DI.
> 
> As for the ground line, as long as it's isolated at the upstream, it won't affect anything because there won't be any current flowing through it.


I don’t think this is true. I recently bought an sbooster vbus2 which disconnects the 5v as I understand it. Don’t think there is more than one power signal in the usb signal? And it works fine.. No trouble with initial negotiation..


----------



## rsbrsvp

My USB cable is pure silver DUAL HEAD so I can disconnect the v-bus line after I restart my mac mini and just use the data line of the USB.

The V-bus is needed for the initial handshake.


----------



## ProLoL

smodtactical said:


> Im just using an amazon 8k shielded HDMI cable. I got a chroma 6 coming, looking forward to compare.



Got a Chroma 6 0.3m on the way too, would compare.


----------



## Jackula (Aug 19, 2020)

Oepsie said:


> I don’t think this is true. I recently bought an sbooster vbus2 which disconnects the 5v as I understand it. Don’t think there is more than one power signal in the usb signal? And it works fine.. No trouble with initial negotiation..



The SBooster must allow the 5v to pass through at the start then. As both @rsbrsvp and I indicated, it is required for the handshake.

I have a USPCB which also lets me disconnect the 5v, mine is manual as it will only allow me to disconnect after the handshake.


----------



## smodtactical

ProLoL said:


> Got a Chroma 6 0.3m on the way too, would compare.



I got the 0.5 meter chroma 6 coming.


----------



## Oepsie (Aug 19, 2020)

Jackula said:


> The SBooster must allow the 5v to pass through at the start then. As both @rsbrsvp and I indicated, it is required for the handshake.
> 
> I have a USPCB which also lets me disconnect the 5v, mine is manual as it will only allow me to disconnect after the handshake.


Ok, sorry for the confusion then. Thought that the vbus actually disconnected the 5v (and that this was the only thing it was doing) - my mistake 

But from the sbooster site: https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/vbus2-isolator/

“The Vbus isolator disables the polluted power from the host PC/streamer, therefor it only works with USB audio devices, that do not need power from the host PC or streamer to operate.”

Looking at the usb specification: http://www.interfacebus.com/USB-Interface-Description.html, the 5volt (red) is referred to as the vbus (hence sbooster’s naming of the vbus2). I don’t think the little gadget is capable of switching off the signal after the handshake??

Just trying to understand what is does and how it is different from cutting the 5volt? - I’m a bit confused


----------



## Jackula

Oepsie said:


> Ok, sorry for the confusion then. Thought that the vbus actually disconnected the 5v (and that this was the only thing it was doing) - my mistake
> 
> But from the sbooster site: https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/vbus2-isolator/
> 
> ...



You're not wrong!

Maybe the SBooster doesn't work the way it's described, or your DI is a special unit that doesn't need the 5V


----------



## smodtactical

For those of you doing streamer + di20he. Do you use a cat6 ethernet cable that is unshielded or cat7 Also do you have any special network switch ?


----------



## newabc

smodtactical said:


> For those of you doing streamer + di20he. Do you use a cat6 ethernet cable that is unshielded or cat7 Also do you have any special network switch ?


With my network knowledge, shielded patch cables are better than unshielded on networking if your switches and other equipment are grounded well.


----------



## ZERUNG

@smodtactical  I use CAT6, shielded wire (Either Blue Jean or Audioquest patch cable). I have not done any detail comparison. I am also using Uptone Audio Switch. The switch is very important.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ZERUNG said:


> The switch is very important.



Wow on the used market they sell off immediately at close to retail.  That switch can be fed a 10mhz clock (50ohm is special order) and it will allow me to go to optical when I'm ready to replace my current 150ft run.  I would give it the square wave from my Morion.  Do you know what Vpp it wants from a clock?  My Morion is 0.3-3Vpp.


----------



## smodtactical

Hans said the uptone is better than the sotm switch.


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm just curious what is the use case of something like the Uptone Audio Switch? Possibly for a Rasp.-PI type standalone streamer or do some PC's output audio from the Ethernet port? And how would one use an external clock with it, does it simultaneously go to both that and the DI-20?


----------



## Wynnytsky

smodtactical said:


> Hans said the uptone is better than the sotm switch.





DecentLevi said:


> I'm just curious what is the use case of something like the Uptone Audio Switch? Possibly for a Rasp.-PI type standalone streamer or do some PC's output audio from the Ethernet port? And how would one use an external clock with it, does it simultaneously go to both that and the DI-20?



Jesus I just spent $650 on a 100mbit switch like it's 1995.  Probably giving it 9v from a 2amp tap on the hdplex.  Alex @uptone said it likes the square wave and I got one of those unspoken for.  Alex also said there's good demand for the 50ohm units in Hong Kong.  It's so funny how audiophile habits aren't shaken by riots and a very uncertain future.


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh, but I'm still curious how do you use something like the Ethernet switch in an audio chain (what does it connect to and what is its' function?, and what does the external clock do to it?)


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 22, 2020)

Hey guys I just compared the newest v4.07 Beta firmware to the original firmware V3.32 on the DI-20 (90/98M version). Kingwa asked me to try the original firmware to see if that may fix the issue I've been having with this newest firmware that causes me to hear an static noise injected during playback sometimes, and even loud buzzing sounds sometimes with DSD playback (this may be prevelant only via its' S/PDIF output (RCA coax, the only type compatible with my DACs. You can read more on my post here.)

It wasn't a direct comparison, having to switch between firmware versions but still had a pretty good handle on the difference after five minutes. The original firmware sounded impressive and good, I had to strain to imagine it any more accurate than that, but something left me feeling as if there's something missing, probably having already gotten used to the V4.07 firmware for a few weeks... returning to this newest firmware, BAM!! Not a subtle difference! Without a doubt, I feel I'm being transported "deeper into the scene" where I'm more of a participant than a spectator, where drums hit with more realism and the chorals engulf you. Treble is more lifelike vs. possibly thin on the former, and bass has more authority.

Although for me personally the above mentioned occasional issue has returned again, I'm pleased to deal with it in exchange for the standout performance of this new firmware. I've told Kingwa about it and he can't replicate the issue on his side, so I think almost anybody will be safe from my issue on the new firmware - though certainly looking forward to any future revision to it.

Also it was mentioned that this new update has something to do with better integration with the DI-20 internal clock. Does anyone have any thoughts on that, and what about this: Has anyone tried this update with an external clock? If so, did the firmware level the playing field a little or does it still benefit very much from an external clock?


PS, about my question above: I'm using a PC-USB-RCA coax setup and the only Ethernet connection I have is for a hard-wired Internet input to my laptop, hence why the Ethernet switch seems a little alien to me.


----------



## ProLoL

The DI20 is one of the best purchases for me, no issues whatsoever. I won't even invest in an external clock cause there will never be a "day and night" difference against my 90/98m internal.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ProLoL said:


> The DI20 is one of the best purchases for me, no issues whatsoever. I won't even invest in an external clock cause there will never be a "day and night" difference against my 90/98m internal.


Mine is also bullet proof doing USB=>I2S.  If you're one to roll the dice on a $100 cable then this is well within reason.
Alex @uptone sent me that link - looks like an unbranded DOXCO like the one in the TerminatorPlus.
If you like what you hear and want more, then swap in a 2008 Morion (I see 4 solder points)
Or offer Queen's_land something closer to $200 and see if he takes it ($300+ is stupid).

@DecentLevi 
whatever is your last ethernet connection before reaching the DI20 (I suppose your laptop) will instead connect to the 100mbit B port on the etherregen.
On the other end is an A bank of gigabit ports that you'd connect back to your router.  For many this would be an extra hop but I'm already using a 
$17 Trendnet switch that I plan to swap out, and someday I'll get a pair of SFP tranceivers and isolate my switch galvanically, but I'll need to cut one end off a 35m+ run and snake that through small holes in/around the home, then re-terminate.


----------



## ZERUNG

Wynnytsky said:


> Wow on the used market they sell off immediately at close to retail.  That switch can be fed a 10mhz clock (50ohm is special order) and it will allow me to go to optical when I'm ready to replace my current 150ft run.  I would give it the square wave from my Morion.  Do you know what Vpp it wants from a clock?  My Morion is 0.3-3Vpp.



I dont quite know
When I use DAPU (3.3VPP), the sound jumps to another level.
You will love this switch.....


----------



## ZERUNG

I have the Morion switch feeding the DI20HE. Makes a difference to my clogged ears.


----------



## ZERUNG

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys I just compared the newest v4.07 Beta firmware to the original firmware V3.32 on the DI-20 (90/98M version). Kingwa asked me to try the original firmware to see if that may fix the issue I've been having with this newest firmware that causes me to hear
> snip!!
> PS, about my question above: I'm using a PC-USB-RCA coax setup and the only Ethernet connection I have is for a hard-wired Internet input to my laptop, hence why the Ethernet switch seems a little alien to me.



I have an external clock but have not upgraded the firmware as yet. I like the external clock better.

In your setup. I think the laptop - ethernet is sending a garbled digital to your audio chain. Which is then sent to your DAC. Even the upstream parts seems to matter a lot. I earlier had the mac mini feeding the DAC via USB. The switch was a huge + impact. When I added the DI20HE the impact was lesser. The price of the switch and the DI20HE is almost same......


----------



## ProLoL

Wynnytsky said:


> Mine is also bullet proof doing USB=>I2S.  If you're one to roll the dice on a $100 cable then this is well within reason.
> Alex @uptone sent me that link - looks like an unbranded DOXCO like the one in the TerminatorPlus.
> If you like what you hear and want more, then swap in a 2008 Morion (I see 4 solder points)
> Or offer Queen's_land something closer to $200 and see if he takes it ($300+ is stupid).
> ...



I've had the first option you've given, been using it with my U16, it's quite good but never a day and night difference.
Some said the Queen's_land double oven is great, but even with a great clock, how better can it be? I'll stay with the internal.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ZERUNG said:


> The switch was a huge + impact. When I added the DI20HE the impact was lesser.


Your saying your sound benefited more from the switch than the DI20HE?  I may have to wait till October to corroborate.
Did you notice which benefited more from the DOXCO? (switch vs DI20HE)

@ProLoL it's a crap shoot.  You've got some tweaks that only help a midfi chain, and it either does nothing for or even holds back (ie hurts) a hifi chain.  Then there are tweaks that are only evident on hifi and show no benefit at all on midfi.  Recently I was able to hear a diff between AC power cords going into an LPS feeding the computer -- if something silly like that has an effect then there must be an ideal humidity and barometric pressure for listening to speakers.


----------



## Jackula

Whether an audiophile switch improves things for you or how much it improves, is really situational.

My switch is 20m away from my listening room, and adding an audiophile switch in my room made no difference. However if your audio equipment is in closer proximity to a network switch, or have wireless running, then it will make a good improvement.

Lots of things you can do just by introducing an air gap rather than spending hundreds to thousands on audio gadgets. When I was running tube gear, simply leaving my phone outside the room made everything sound a lot better.


----------



## jase01

I’m new here, and first want to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone for their comments on this thread. Like many I’ve had significant issues with the firmware upgrade process over the last few months, ultimately solved with the help of all you, especially frizzup, and eventually the input of a programmer friend who was able to perform the upgrade for me.
Quick question: has anyone on v4.07 tried running test tracks to confirm right and left channel? Mine are reversed. Having checked all cable connections a dozen times and run through everything else I can currently think of to explain I’m at a loss, so wondered if others are having the same experience?


----------



## ProLoL

jase01 said:


> I’m new here, and first want to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone for their comments on this thread. Like many I’ve had significant issues with the firmware upgrade process over the last few months, ultimately solved with the help of all you, especially frizzup, and eventually the input of a programmer friend who was able to perform the upgrade for me.
> Quick question: has anyone on v4.07 tried running test tracks to confirm right and left channel? Mine are reversed. Having checked all cable connections a dozen times and run through everything else I can currently think of to explain I’m at a loss, so wondered if others are having the same experience?



Are you using I2S out?


----------



## jase01

No, USB in and AES/EBU out


----------



## ProLoL

Ah I see, well if it was the i2s out to not an audio gd dac, the reverse could happen duo to different hdmi pin configurations, happened to me with my U12 and therefore couldn't use it's i2s, even If I did just reverse the cables, the highs rolled off severely.


----------



## jase01

Good point and thanks for the suggestion, but yes, hard to see how even I could misconfigure a USB or AES/EBU cable 😉. Everything else is as it was a few months ago when my DI-20 was last functioning and at that time the channel reversing issue wasn’t present.


----------



## ProLoL (Aug 23, 2020)

Has anyone tried to compare the DI20 with amanero drivers vs no drivers? My U12 was significantly better without drivers.


----------



## Oepsie

jase01 said:


> Good point and thanks for the suggestion, but yes, hard to see how even I could misconfigure a USB or AES/EBU cable 😉. Everything else is as it was a few months ago when my DI-20 was last functioning and at that time the channel reversing issue wasn’t present.


You say that the channel switching was not there before?

I actually experienced this at one point - that the channels got switched. I use the coax out. It didn’t even go away when I completely turned off everything! I did this several times, no change. The only thing that worked was when I plugged in another converter (my gustard u12) - I was getting paranoid at that point!! - then the u12 had the channels correct again, and switching back to the di20, the channels were then correct again! Crazy.. Was very strange (and had my hifi friend as witness, else I would not believe me  ). My experience seemed like a driver thing om my streamer, not something with the di20. It took a re-initialization of the streamer to revert channels back again. Or something..


----------



## Wynnytsky

jase01 said:


> No, USB in and AES/EBU out


Is it the same for PCM and DSD (or are you converting everything to DSD)?  What does your middle letter show?




it's confusing that the docs use the term "swap" while the LED display shows "I" for inverting (suggesting phase)

and if you're using win10 then I would compare the behavior between asio, wasapi, and direct sound.


----------



## jase01

Thanks for your comments all. Update is that 24hrs on from restarting the DI-20 and finding the left and right channels reversed, having made no changes at all the channels are now correct! If my partner hadn’t heard the Left & Right channel test tones last night and tonight also, and confirmed what I heard, I’d have thought I was going mad!! I‘ll check in again periodically over the next couple of days and keep you posted. Thanks again for the input so far.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys is there any consensus about whether a USB input to the DI-20 with power signals disconnected makes any audible improvement? And was this said to cause any issue with boot-up of the DI-20? And which device or adapter is the most recommended for this? Or would a sort of USB galvanic isolator be more beneficial for the cleanest USB power into the DI-20? Those can be much more expensive than the power-removal hack though.


----------



## ProLoL

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys is there any consensus about whether a USB input to the DI-20 with power signals disconnected makes any audible improvement? And was this said to cause any issue with boot-up of the DI-20? And which device or adapter is the most recommended for this? Or would a sort of USB galvanic isolator be more beneficial for the cleanest USB power into the DI-20? Those can be much more expensive than the power-removal hack though.



Kingwa wrote not to use any external isolator. I'm blocking my 5v pin on the USB, the results are tiny even though the power in my apartment is very dirty. With other DDC's blocking the 5v brought huge improvement so that shows the DI20 psu is great. I tried using ifi Ipower to power the usb, the DI20 rejects it. I recommend using the DI20 as is.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Aug 26, 2020)

ProLoL said:


> Kingwa wrote not to use any external isolator. I'm blocking my 5v pin on the USB, the results are tiny even though the power in my apartment is very dirty. With other DDC's blocking the 5v brought huge improvement so that shows the DI20 psu is great. I tried using ifi Ipower to power the usb, the DI20 rejects it. I recommend using the DI20 as is.




I have experimented with several regenerators/isolators including the Regen ISO and the SOTM ultra--- and in my system both damage the sound by rounding off detail.  I basically agree that nothing- or at least nothing with active power should be between the computer and the DI-20HE;-- and for sure disconnect the v-bus component of the USB cable after the initial handshake.  I accomplish this using a dual headed usb cable with desperate v-bus and data lines to my computer.

I have found that a Jitterbug filter (which is a passive filter) attached to my computer's usb output is an exception and improves results.  It increases resolution instead of rounding off detail.  I do not know why it works but it does..  It is the only component between my computer and DI-20HE which makes things better and not worse for me.  And the best news is it costs around $50!!!  There is perhaps a small trade off in that focus is noticeably improved at the cost of a bit of soundstage contraction- but I am happy with the tradeoff....


----------



## DecentLevi

I have actually been getting FANTASTIC results with the old Schiit Wyrd USB 'decrapifier' between my PC and the DI-20. I used to go with that plus the iFi iPurifier 2 USB together, but since the 4.07 firmware update I tested it again and noticed it sounds more pure & robust with only the Wyrd. It really does a great job cleaning up the sound from the PC. It's a discontinued item though you can probably find one used for very cheap.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Aug 26, 2020)

I certainly believe you and furthermore I would say it is completely illogical that something like and ISO Regen would cause any damage.  It is regenerating a signal which must be substantially better than the one delivered by my mac mini.  My mac uses a dirty switching power supply full of jitter and the Regan ISO uses a vastly superior LPS and excellent clocking; but nevertheless my ears hear damage.  I have tried the regen ISO many times and it is not to my liking.  The SOTM is better but still better is NOTHING IMHO.  

My conclusion although I can't say why technically is that to much re-clocking and re-generating deteriorates sound.  How much is too much?  Each one of us needs to find out by experimentation in our systems. 

And make sure to disconnect that v-bus line of the usb cable between the computer and the DI-20.


----------



## Oepsie (Aug 26, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> I have found that a Jitterbug filter (which is a passive filter) attached to my computer's usb output is an exception and improves results.  It increases resolution instead of rounding off detail.  I do not know why it works but it does..  It is the only component between my computer and DI-20HE which makes things better and not worse for me.  And the best news is it costs around $50!!!  There is perhaps a small trade off in that focus is noticeably improved at the cost of a bit of soundstage contraction- but I am happy with the tradeoff....


The jitterbug is interesting. With another DDC, it improved the sound from my laptop in the same way that you describe. But when switching to a SoTM streamer with a Paul Hynes LPS, it had a negative effect and had distinct veil effect on the sound. In my experience, it depends on the streamer/pc used.

A friend of mine had similar experiences with an Innous streamer and ended up selling both his jitterbug and iso regen.

Regarding the vbus, the sbooster vbus2 works for me (and as I understand it, it disconnects the vbus of the usb signal) - gives a noticeable improvement to naturalness of the sound/especially with instruments - adds more 'feeling' to the sound with a little less edge - especially with classical music, the difference is significant. I'm very happy with my usb cable which already has power line separated from signal line, but still disconnecting the vbus gives an improvement.


----------



## Pappas3278

DecentLevi said:


> I have actually been getting FANTASTIC results with the old Schiit Wyrd USB 'decrapifier' between my PC and the DI-20. I used to go with that plus the iFi iPurifier 2 USB together, but since the 4.07 firmware update I tested it again and noticed it sounds more pure & robust with only the Wyrd. It really does a great job cleaning up the sound from the PC. It's a discontinued item though you can probably find one used for very cheap.


I have a Schiit Wyrd between my MacMini and DI-20 and experience great results also.


----------



## FredA

Hi guys.

Anyone running the di20 or He with an old M7 (not singularity)? if so, how much of an upgrade?

Also, anyone with hands on with the supra hdmi cable?


----------



## Donnyhifi

FredA said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> Anyone running the di20 or He with an old M7 (not singularity)? if so, how much of an upgrade?
> 
> Also, anyone with hands on with the supra hdmi cable?



Hi Fred, I am using a very old AGD M7(used to be a Ref 7.1 which was converted to an M7). I upgraded the M7 FPGA firmware(to V7) and installed an HDMI I2S interface which is now connected to the DI-20(firmware V4.07) using a Wireworld Ultraviolet 6 0.3M HDMI cable. 

Overall the difference over my previous DDC(Singxer SU-1) is quite significant. Many factors have improved including overall speed, soundstage depth and width, resolution and tighter bass(without sacrificing heft) and a slightly more black background. The DAC still retains much of the AGD warmth which allows it to hold on to that meaty midrange character but with a greater sense of clarity and veil being lifted without adding harshness.

Past DDCs used I felt colored the sound of the M7 with Singxer SU-1 being a small improvement over previously used DDC. 
The DI-20 though feels like I have new DAC!!!

Kingwa's customer service is excellent as well, the input buttons on the front panel were failing and he sent me a new board free of charge along with the DI-20 I purchased.

I haven't compared with the newer DACs in the market but my current setup sounds quite satisfying. I might go to one of the local shops and check out the Chord Dave and see how it compares.


----------



## FredA

Donnyhifi said:


> Hi Fred, I am using a very old AGD M7(used to be a Ref 7.1 which was converted to an M7). I upgraded the M7 FPGA firmware(to V7) and installed an HDMI I2S interface which is now connected to the DI-20(firmware V4.07) using a Wireworld Ultraviolet 6 0.3M HDMI cable.
> 
> Overall the difference over my previous DDC(Singxer SU-1) is quite significant. Many factors have improved including overall speed, soundstage depth and width, resolution and tighter bass(without sacrificing heft) and a slightly more black background. The DAC still retains much of the AGD warmth which allows it to hold on to that meaty midrange character but with a greater sense of clarity and veil being lifted without adding harshness.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much!


----------



## interweb-tech

Took the plunge and ordered a DI-20HE Accusilicon 90/98 from Audio-gd and a Wireworld Chroma 7 HDMI Cable (0.6 meter) from Amazon. Going to pair it with my Audio-gd R-27 (2020 Full upgrade).


----------



## DecentLevi

interweb-tech said:


> Took the plunge and ordered a DI-20HE Accusilicon 90/98 from Audio-gd and a Wireworld Chroma 7 HDMI Cable (0.6 meter) from Amazon. Going to pair it with my Audio-gd R-27 (2020 Full upgrade).


Interesting, we live near (Seattle here, albeit an insane time period which I pray to survive!!!). I got the same DI-20 a few months ago and patience is the key. It seems to sound better at around 200 hours and really open up around 500 hrs. with music burning in. But for me the biggest difference was after upgrading to the recent firmware v4.07. You could ask Kingwa if that's the one it ships with already, if not you're gonna need a special Astralabs device and good PC skills to manually upgrade it. 

I'm still an experiencing an occasional issue with loud static noise interjected with this version, and am willing to deal with it as a trade off for much better sound when its' behaving. FWIW though I seem to be the only one to experience this issue yet and you may very well be just fine using an HDMI output vs. my using the RCA S/PDIF socket. I took some time reverting to / from / to the newest version again and the fault is related to the firmware, and I made Kingwa aware of it and he said he'll try to release a fixed firmware version.


----------



## PLGA

DecentLevi said:


> Interesting, we live near (Seattle here, albeit an insane time period which I pray to survive!!!). I got the same DI-20 a few months ago and patience is the key. It seems to sound better at around 200 hours and really open up around 500 hrs. with music burning in. But for me the biggest difference was after upgrading to the recent firmware v4.07. You could ask Kingwa if that's the one it ships with already, if not you're gonna need a special Astralabs device and good PC skills to manually upgrade it.
> 
> I'm still an experiencing an occasional issue with loud static noise interjected with this version, and am willing to deal with it as a trade off for much better sound when its' behaving. FWIW though I seem to be the only one to experience this issue yet and you may very well be just fine using an HDMI output vs. my using the RCA S/PDIF socket. I took some time reverting to / from / to the newest version again and the fault is related to the firmware, and I made Kingwa aware of it and he said he'll try to release a fixed firmware version.



I have occasionally loud static noise, either with AES/EBU or I2S output from DI-20.
I believe is something related with low internet bandwith as I still don't have fiber and I'm using ADSL. 
The problem also happened, and more often, with my Gustard U16.
It happens when I have to restart a song after it stops playing due to not enough internet speed. It happens once in a while and I believe less as burning time increases.

My digital set up is:

Modem ADSL
Ubiquity Router
Uptone ER
SOtM SMS Ultra Neo SE
Audio-gd DI-20 with beta firmware
Audio-gd R8 DAC

Best sonic results with AES/EBU between DI-20 and R8.


----------



## FredA

There is a new review in Italian, very positive 

https://www.audiosinapsi.it/hi-fi/s...gd-di-20-e-di-20-he-via-maestra-verso-la-i2s/


----------



## ProLoL

Parallel mode is the clear winner here over series.


----------



## Wynnytsky

PLGA said:


> I still don't have fiber and I'm using ADSL.


when I hear that I imagine the person lives in some picturesque country side



PLGA said:


> The problem also happened, and more often, with my Gustard U16.


and you were also using the sMS-200ultra Neo as well?

We'll have a covid vaccine before anyone solves this di20 issue.  Even an audiophile transport can suffer, and then someone like me using generic DIY win10 computers is enjoying trouble free use.

My friend's w4s 10th anniversary dac has a "Jitter Eliminator" setting that allows him to set the size of the 'window' employed by the 9038 chip when tracking a signal.  The larger the window the more tolerant it becomes of a poor signal, but at the expense of imaging/focus/etc.  So you drop it as low as possible w/o getting dropouts.  He told me he's able to turn it off (using a DIY win10 computer).  Perhaps we need something like this on the DI20?  It can also be a good metric of how "good" our transports are.  What we don't want is for Qingwa to lock in conservative tolerances.


----------



## FredA (Aug 29, 2020)

For those who want the vaccine. For a thing that  kills no more than the flu... I need a 10M clock input much more than any aprenti-sorcer remedy. My immune system is working just fine as it is. Give me
C19, I will kill it like a stupid bug.


----------



## DecentLevi

I thought some of you may be interested in my findings which gave a further leap in performance of the DI-20: using ferrite beads on the power cable going into the USB purifier device the leads into the DI-20, as well as on my headphone cable. Link here.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> I need a 10M clock input much more than any aprenti-sorcer remedy.


Alas we're the 0.05% minority in greater need of a 10M input more than drugs

@DecentLevi
Those snap-on ferrite cores really do have an impact on the highs, and I used them liberally in years prior, even on the hookup runs to my compression drivers where they truly threw-out-the-baby-with-the-bathwater.  I went nuts with the LPS DC cables and even went inside the SU1 and covered every inch of that DC cable.  While they mitigated fatigue they also detracted from the rawness/zing/excitement/involvement -- similar to over-treating my room with absorption.  So for me it fell in the category of being the bandaid masking the symptom instead of addressing the cause.  I tend to think it was the 10M clock that allowed me to shed a USB reclocker and all the ferrites.  Hopefully operation warp speed will ship me a dac with a 10M input and then I can really get my fun on.


----------



## Jackula

I took out my ISO Regen from my DI20HE for about 2 days to see what the sound differences are, it's been awhile since I last did this and I got a much shorter and better sounding USB cable now and was wondering if I still needed the ISO or sell it to someone who needs it. And the short answer is "absolutely!" Without it the most obvious difference is a hardness in across the frequency, last night listening to Eva Cassidy her voice lacked the usual expressiveness. Adding back the ISO Regen, voices sound natural again, treble lost some sibilance, and bass was better defined. Don't think I'll be removing my ISO Regen, like ever. Ymmv though.


----------



## Toni-Mang

PLGA said:


> Audio-gd DI-20 with beta firmware
> Audio-gd R8 DAC
> Best sonic results with AES/EBU between DI-20 and R8.





ProLoL said:


> Parallel mode is the clear winner here over series.



This might be a question of the system synergy...and source.
For me, p-mode is narrower in sound stage, I2S is sharper in presense.
Also i have mixed feelings with my OCXO 8663-XS and the LPS...internal clocks still sound better to me (V4.07b)


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 31, 2020)

@Jackula looks like our experiences are not too dissimilar in that a better filtered and/or re-gen / reclocked USB signal coming into the DI-20 makes a huge difference. In my case it's the former Wyrd with a few ferrite chokes on its' thin AC cable.



Wynnytsky said:


> Alas we're the 0.05% minority in greater need of a 10M input more than drugs
> 
> @DecentLevi
> Those snap-on ferrite cores really do have an impact on the highs, and I used them liberally in years prior, even on the hookup runs to my compression drivers where they truly threw-out-the-baby-with-the-bathwater.  I went nuts with the LPS DC cables and even went inside the SU1 and covered every inch of that DC cable.  While they mitigated fatigue they also detracted from the rawness/zing/excitement/involvement -- similar to over-treating my room with absorption.  So for me it fell in the category of being the bandaid masking the symptom instead of addressing the cause.  I tend to think it was the 10M clock that allowed me to shed a USB reclocker and all the ferrites.  Hopefully operation warp speed will ship me a dac with a 10M input and then I can really get my fun on.


Ferrite beads (AKA cores / chokes) can actually change the sound in a lot of ways. On some applications such as analog audio cables they may effect the highs (though I lost nothing on my headphone cables). For me on headphone cables they improved the sense of vivid-ness and realism, like immediacy and organic quality, tightened up the bass a little and the treble remained. On a thin AC power cable leading to the USB purifier between the DI-20 and my PC, it actually smoothed out the treble, improved separation & soundstage; along with some improvements in dynamics. Likewise with the Qutest DC power cable it also smoothed out the treble & tightened up the bass, but at the expense of causing a little congestion of instrument separation. And I read ones with different ratings effect different frequencies.

Also agreed they may not be needed depending on your system.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Aug 31, 2020)

Jackula said:


> I took out my ISO Regen from my DI20HE for about 2 days to see what the sound differences are, it's been awhile since I last did this and I got a much shorter and better sounding USB cable now and was wondering if I still needed the ISO or sell it to someone who needs it. And the short answer is "absolutely!" Without it the most obvious difference is a hardness in across the frequency, last night listening to Eva Cassidy her voice lacked the usual expressiveness. Adding back the ISO Regen, voices sound natural again, treble lost some sibilance, and bass was better defined. Don't think I'll be removing my ISO Regen, like ever. Ymmv though.




I just took out my ISO Regen from my storage room and added it between my computer and my DI-20HE.  I have done this many many times and the Regen always damaged the sound; but this time it made a surprising and noticeable improvement.

Two things have  changed in my system since I last had the Regen in it.
1.  Firmware 4.07.  
2. I got a Topaz .0005 capacitance ultra low noise isolation transformer for my entire system that removes around 165dcb of noise from my mains in balanced mode (which by the way was a monumental upgrade for around $300)

I guess the Regen likes these changes.  I'm not pulling it out now.


----------



## Oepsie

OK, so my friend Lars and I (and a couple of other hifi guys) had a session with his DI-20 (nonHE version) yesterday and his new clock (LC Audio). One of the others brought his OCXO clock as well (50 dollar amazon version with low key LPS).

It was really interesting to hear the difference between the two external clocks. The new LC Audio clock sounded 'closed' and muffled with a darker top end. Texture in the midrange was very good, especially with voices and a clear improvement over internal clock. But the overall tonal balance with the LC Audio clock was off and I actually preferred the internal clock in this aspect. The OCXO clock was better in ALL aspects. It gave an amazing natural sound quality to the listening experience and it definitely sounded more 'right' with more natural timbre/symbilance. A strange experience when a system sounding good to begin with get this touch of naturalness... difficult to explain..

In the process, we also (again) tried the 4.07 firmware. We have tried this before and still after last night prefer the original 3.32 firmware in my friend's system. The other firmwares are too bright and focus too much on detail retrieval and midrange clarity (to our ears at least ), sacrificing musicality, tonal balance and top/lower end extension. 3.9 is definitely better than 4.07. This was consistant with my own system where 3.9 hits the sweet spot between 3.32 and 4.07. But its kind of worrying that the firmwares exhibit this difference in tonal balance between the firmware versions. Makes it really difficult to navigate, and carefull listening should go into the future development of the firmware (and might not be consistant between HE and nonHE versions?).


----------



## Bech (Sep 2, 2020)

Just for the record . My new external clock mentioned above was by mistanke set to 3.3 v output which is out of range for firmware 3.32. It is now changed to 1.8v. And it have to have a chance to burn-in - I got it 2 days ago.
We will make another listeningsession within some weeks where I will decide to return it or not.


----------



## ProLoL (Sep 2, 2020)

Toni-Mang said:


> This might be a question of the system synergy...and source.
> For me, p-mode is narrower in sound stage, I2S is sharper in presense.
> Also i have mixed feelings with my OCXO 8663-XS and the LPS...internal clocks still sound better to me (V4.07b)



Just tried series after long time of parallel usage, very musical and fun, also more emotional.
It's great for aggressive systems, it's significantly more relaxed than parallel.


----------



## FredA (Sep 2, 2020)

ProLoL said:


> Just tried series after long time of parallel usage, very musical and fun, also more emotional.
> It's great for aggressive systems, it's significantly more relaxed than parallel.


Yeah, i prefer it with 4.07b. My system is rather neutral. An updated fw should come out soon and change that.


----------



## ProLoL (Sep 2, 2020)

FredA said:


> Yeah, i prefer it with 4.07b. My system is rather neutral. An updated fw should come out soon and change that.



I do prefer the Parallel with my R2R11, gives a wow factor, the series sounds like a better version of the original R2R11 amanero. 

By the way, what makes you think that an updated fw would change your preference?


----------



## FredA

ProLoL said:


> I do prefer the Parallel with my R2R11, gives a wow factor, the series sounds like a better version of the original R2R11 amanero.
> 
> By the way, what makes you think that an updated fw would change your preference?


Kingwa said 4.07b was, tuned with the internal clocks mostly. It makes the sound a little hard with my setup compared to the previous fws. Some tweaking should be done with the external for the official release.


----------



## Jackula

FredA said:


> Kingwa said 4.07b was, tuned with the internal clocks mostly. It makes the sound a little hard with my setup compared to the previous fws. Some tweaking should be done with the external for the official release.



A few posts ago, I mentioned the same thing. However adding an ISO Regen removed the hardness completely. As we all can agree on, 4.07b is the most detailed and transparent firmware yet, so I suspect previous firmwares were simply not resolving enough to show the differences which the ISO can make.


----------



## FredA

The usb chain, which sw you use, the usb cable, everything matters. The only thing is with the di20he, you know you sit at higher level. Yet tweaking still matters.


----------



## myshark

Jackula said:


> A few posts ago, I mentioned the same thing. However adding an ISO Regen removed the hardness completely. As we all can agree on, 4.07b is the most detailed and transparent firmware yet, so I suspect previous firmwares were simply not resolving enough to show the differences which the ISO can make.


Hi, i am new here.
I took off my regen but now i will put it back and hear the results.
Thanks


----------



## Wynnytsky

I read all these horror stories about di20's coax output so I was preparing myself for the worst when this Mystique v3 visited today





It ran every bit as reliable over a cerious technologies graphene matrix coax as it does over a belden hdmi.
My baseless hunch is that my di20he+4.07b is no better than those exhibiting issues, but perhaps my computer is behaving better.

The mojo dac is mature and forgiving in that it allows me to play certain tracks louder than my r2r7 could play w/o fatigue.  It also has an unusually low gain, so when I compensate with my passive volume @2pm I'm expecting to hear the noise floor emerge, but all I get is a double dose of r2r magic.  "Power supply is what makes the difference between the DAC playing the music vs. the music playing the DAC", Benjamin Zwickel


----------



## myshark

Zachik said:


> The HE adds "Regenerative Power Supply", which is basically a better AC handling (to reduce noise from noisy or so-so power source).
> Since I use a Power Regenerator - I will probably opt for the $400+ cheaper non-HE version. That, or the Denafrips Iris...


I was one of the early takers of Di20 tcxo!! mine came in early december 2019.
4.07b fw is very good. the best that my system has been.a lot of improvements.
I am now regretting not getting at least the accusilion if not the HE, but what to do.
I could not comment on the HE SQ vs the tcxo, but mine definitely improve the SQ of my system.
good luck.


----------



## myshark

soundlogic said:


> Fellow DI-20 owners, any idea why: when I switch from ”S” mode to “P” mode, I get zero signal? Switching back to “S” mode returns the music. Dead air in P mode. I have re-booted streamer, DAC, and DI-20,
> USB in from my Aries G2 streamer, I2s out to PSA Directstream DAC. I am currently using firmware version V3.93
> Any suggestions or similar experiences?
> Thanks; Tim


Yes i have encountered this recently.
At that time the stream was 176.4Khz 24 bits. When changing from P to S nothing, no sound. The volumio was upsampling the native stream of 44.1khz 16 bits to 176.4khz 24 bits. When i revert back to the native stream, i.e. no upsampling, there is no problem when changing the P to S or vice versa on the fly.
It only happened in upsampled stream?
Any thoughts?


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> I read all these horror stories about di20's coax output so I was preparing myself for the worst when this Mystique v3 visited today
> 
> 
> It ran every bit as reliable over a cerious technologies graphene matrix coax as it does over a belden hdmi.
> ...


Low noise is key. Hence how good the HE gears. 

This Mojo dac is definitely all about psu quality.


----------



## PLGA

Last night I did a short test between Serial and Parallel on my DI-20 with 4.07 firmware. 
When first I tried Parallel, I felt it had more resolution, but last night I found Serial to be more analog and natural sounding. Parallel felt more digital to me, with more sibilance that can be interpretated as "air" between instruments, but I believe it's not. I think it's noise and I think it also affects the tone, making the sound more "digital". 

This weekend I will try again my W4S USB Reclocker (RUR) as some of you say that the Uptone USB Regen before the DI-20 can improve the sound. Nevertheless, I didn't like it when I tried it some months ago. I felt it made things worse. Has anyone tried the RUR before a DI-20?  How was it?


----------



## ProLoL (Sep 3, 2020)

Parallel vs series, it really depends what you hook it up to. For me the parallel is more natural, the series is slower and "dreamy" sounding in comparison.
By slower, it's probably just a longer sustain and the parallel a quicker decay.
It's great to have two choices to choose from.


----------



## Wynnytsky

PLGA said:


> Has anyone tried the RUR before a DI-20? How was it?


I removed it after I got the new firmware, external clock, new LPS, removed wall warts, power cord replacements, etc
I'm don't know which change/s addressed the issue my RUR was treating but I would guess it was powering my computer with a Keces P8, adding the Morion, and replacing a DIY power cord on my R2R7 with a Triode Wire Labs Seven Plus.


----------



## interweb-tech

Received my DHL notice that my DI-20HE has begun its slow journey to my listening station. I also ordered a Maze Audio Ref4 SE 10-AWG power cord (matches the 3 I have in use now for R-27 & ADAM Audio speakers) as well as a Wireworld Chroma 7 HDMI cable (read somewhere kingwa had recommended it for this use). 

Any tips for a new owner? I understand it needs upwards of 500 hours of burn-in. Is there a recommended method to speed that up? I also has a PS Audio LANRover that I have between the Dell laptop and the R-27. My understanding based on reading here is that it may or may not provide any benefit going forward. Should I leave it out until burn-in is done?


----------



## PLGA

interweb-tech said:


> Received my DHL notice that my DI-20HE has begun its slow journey to my listening station. I also ordered a Maze Audio Ref4 SE 10-AWG power cord (matches the 3 I have in use now for R-27 & ADAM Audio speakers) as well as a Wireworld Chroma 7 HDMI cable (read somewhere kingwa had recommended it for this use).
> 
> Any tips for a new owner? I understand it needs upwards of 500 hours of burn-in. Is there a recommended method to speed that up? I also has a PS Audio LANRover that I have between the Dell laptop and the R-27. My understanding based on reading here is that it may or may not provide any benefit going forward. Should I leave it out until burn-in is done?



Kingwa told me that burning can be done just leaving the DI-20 on. So it should take about a month or si to reach it's full potential.


----------



## DecentLevi

I thought it was supposed to be burned in with music playing, though I may have my 'wires crossed'. 

Also another issue I've been having with the 4.07 Beta firmware is reversed channels. I didn't always notice it until I starting doing either a manual sound test on the Windows playback device properties that does a 'ping' in the left channel first then the right channel, or by playing a song which has a sound on the right or left channel that you're familiar with, revealing it starts up with the channels reversed a good percentage of the time.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DecentLevi said:


> starts up with the channels reversed a good percentage of the time


if you were on i2s then I'd say it's likely swapping on either pcm or dsd (not both), but I never heard of coax swapping channels
what you're up against sounds insurmountable -- and you think it's 4.07b to blame?


----------



## PLGA

DecentLevi said:


> I thought it was supposed to be burned in with music playing, though I may have my 'wires crossed'.
> 
> Also another issue I've been having with the 4.07 Beta firmware is reversed channels. I didn't always notice it until I starting doing either a manual sound test on the Windows playback device properties that does a 'ping' in the left channel first then the right channel, or by playing a song which has a sound on the right or left channel that you're familiar with, revealing it starts up with the channels reversed a good percentage of the time.



Yes, I had reversed channels or weird soundstage issues, but they happened few times, as also the strong static issues.

And yes, Kinwga says that you can burn it only leaving it on.


----------



## DecentLevi (Sep 3, 2020)

Yes the 4.07 beta is definitely to blame for the reversed channels, which didn't occur beforehand.

I just spent 20+ minutes swapping between S(eries) and P(arrellel) modes on the DI-20 with 4.07 firmware and literally about 75% of the time out of about 30 times going between the two modes they were the opposite of each other. It was usually R/L on P mode then L/R on S mode, then after giving it a 10 min. 'disciplinary' time out, it decided to switch the other direction on me, still both P / S modes being usually the opposite channel as each other. The reversed channels also made it difficult to get a handle on the differences, but my impression from the rare times where both modes were actually in the same channel orientation is that S mode on this firmware version has a modestly harsher treble presentation while P mode is more natural with possibly a nuance better dynamics.

A lot of the difference you may be hearing between P / S modes with 4.07 may be down to swapped channels between the modes. Yup this is with the RCA coax cable (my only option), and I'll report this also to Kingwa. Despite these huge nuisances with this and loud hiss about 30% of the time I'm still keeping v4.07 because the sound is significantly improved enough to still deal with it for now.


----------



## PLGA

Well, it happened to me with other firmwares and with HDMI and AES/EBU connections. I haven't tried Coax.


----------



## DecentLevi

I've just conceded to dedicating 1-5 minutes each boot-up of the DI-20 for 'trobleshooting' for any R/L reverse or hissing noise. But at least the issue doesn't come back until touching any buttons or turning it off.


----------



## myshark

PLGA said:


> Yes, I had reversed channels or weird soundstage issues, but they happened few times, as also the strong static issues.
> 
> And yes, Kinwga says that you can burn it only leaving it on.


I also have the same issues using aes/ebu output in serial mode.
But i2s output is ok.


----------



## myshark

DecentLevi said:


> I've just conceded to dedicating 1-5 minutes each boot-up of the DI-20 for 'trobleshooting' for any R/L reverse or hissing noise. But at least the issue doesn't come back until touching any buttons or turning it off.


It happens when changing parallel to serial or vice versa on the fly.


----------



## DecentLevi

It often starts up with either issue on boot-up, so I have to troubleshoot it every boot-up by cycling between P / S modes unless I'm lucky


----------



## FredA

DecentLevi said:


> It often starts up with either issue on boot-up, so I have to troubleshoot it every boot-up by cycling between P / S modes unless I'm lucky


Skipping a song does not fix this? Or else you should be fine just rebooting the computer. I never noticed this issue. But i don't.switch often between P and S.


----------



## ProLoL

Never had a single issue via I2S, no static nor reversed channels, simply perfect. I don't see another reason using a different input, other inputs aren't asynchronous.


----------



## Wynnytsky

DecentLevi said:


> But at least the issue doesn't come back until touching any buttons or turning it off.


perhaps I've been spared because I don't turn the thing off or push it's buttons.



ProLoL said:


> I don't see another reason using a different input, other inputs aren't asynchronous.


I didn't know that about i2s.
I recall video cards working by filling a video frame buffer async that is sampled asynch 60..240 times a second by the monitor, and freesync/g-sync + displayport is supposed to allow the monitor to grab+paint frames as fast as they are completed instead of using a fixed rate that opens you up to teared and skipped frames.


----------



## ProLoL

The spdif / optical signals are packed into code, transferred to the dac's receiver chip which unpacks the code, that packing and unpacking can cause a loss of data.
AES is the same just a balanced spdif. I2S avoids it, making two devices become one instead of one device speaking to another.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ProLoL said:


> The spdif / optical signals are packed into code, transferred to the dac's receiver chip which unpacks the code, that packing and unpacking can cause a loss of data.
> AES is the same just a balanced spdif. I2S avoids it, making two devices become one instead of one device speaking to another.



for spdif or i2s, are either of them slaving one device (ex: dac) to the other device's clock (ex: di20)?  Or is the external clock the only way to get them dancing to the same tune?

from your above explanation, can one speculate that one of the protocols (spdif vs i2s) would benefit more from an external clock?


----------



## PLGA

Well, I don't know so much about tech aspects of it, but I've tried, between my DI-20 and R8 DAC, I2S connection with two different cables (0.5m BJ Belden and 0.6m Moishou) and I prefered AES/EBU. It sounded more rounded and natural, less harsh. 

I know both HDMI cables mentioned are cheap, but recomended on this forum as good ones. Also the AES/EBU (XLR) cable I tried was a not expensive chinese one and 1m long, longer than the HDMI ones. 

I don't know, I might try it again over time, but there are SO MANY possible combinations that I feel I will never stop trying and trying and that's time consuming against our time to just enjoy music. As a rule, I generally don't spend much time doing A/B comparisons. If there is a noticeable difference in sound quality between two settings, or two different equipments, I must feel it right away and with out any doubt about it. If not, it's not worthwile to spend time on it.


----------



## Wynnytsky

PLGA said:


> I prefered AES/EBU. It sounded more rounded and natural, less harsh.



can't help but wonder if i2s' tighter tolerances has a greater need for a common external clock
and perhaps the consequence of not having that is that harshness that we hope to solve with cables


----------



## Articnoise

interweb-tech said:


> Received my DHL notice that my DI-20HE has begun its slow journey to my listening station. I also ordered a Maze Audio Ref4 SE 10-AWG power cord (matches the 3 I have in use now for R-27 & ADAM Audio speakers) as well as a Wireworld Chroma 7 HDMI cable (read somewhere kingwa had recommended it for this use).
> 
> Any tips for a new owner? I understand it needs upwards of 500 hours of burn-in. Is there a recommended method to speed that up? I also has a PS Audio LANRover that I have between the Dell laptop and the R-27. My understanding based on reading here is that it may or may not provide any benefit going forward. Should I leave it out until burn-in is done?



5-6 days of burn in and it will sound splendid. After that just keep it on 24/7 and play music when you want to listen. Good server and cables are mandatory thou if you want to experience how good the DI-20HE really is.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> for spdif or i2s, are either of them slaving one device (ex: dac) to the other device's clock (ex: di20)?  Or is the external clock the only way to get them dancing to the same tune?
> 
> from your above explanation, can one speculate that one of the protocols (spdif vs i2s) would benefit more from an external clock?


Both are asynch with the r7 and m7s. And the newer audio-gd dacs.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 4, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> for spdif or i2s, are either of them slaving one device (ex: dac) to the other device's clock (ex: di20)?  Or is the external clock the only way to get them dancing to the same tune?
> 
> from your above explanation, can one speculate that one of the protocols (spdif vs i2s) would benefit more from an external clock?


Iin S/PDIF clock is embedded in the data stream (needs to be recovered). Such recovery is jittered, it needs a lot of care.

With I2S there is a real hardware clock line (external  clock), it must be clean. There is no synchronisation back like in USB protocol, so this clock is a master. Most of DAC's including chip DACs have native support for I2S, can be fed directly. While jitter is already low, it can be improved. How it can be improved, it is a matter for a different topic. A device may use I2S clock as a master or generate its own master clock, it is probably how it is made in DI-20.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@sajunky 
So if I read the above correct, neither spdif nor i2s can share a master clock signal over the coax or hdmi alone.  Both participating devices would need to be networked to an external clock via 50/75ohm BNC cabling (series or parallel).

So whether my di20he uses it's internal oxco or the external Morion doxco, even if my r2r7's oxco is identical in spec, there must be some phase shift between the two clocks.  The exact shift is determined by the moment in time that I turn these devices on.  Assuming 180 degrees is the worst shift, I wonder if that's enough to make it a bad listening session?  And then what duration of time would need to elapse before these clocks naturally drift back into perfect phase?

And if clock phase is a real thing, are those GPS clocks accurate enough that you could operate two of them (no sharing) in perfect phase @10mhz?


----------



## sajunky (Sep 4, 2020)

I don't know why you need to preserve phase. BTW, one of the most precise some methods of synchronisation, FIFO introduce delay in a row of number miliseconds to the input *samples* and you talk about 180 degree phase shift of the clock. I seem something failing to follow.

AFAIK, all inputs can be synchronised with master clock if enabled in settings. As for 'HDMI' in DI-20, it is just I2S solution utilizing HDMI connector. It has nothing to do with HDMI.

My previous post actually repeat what @ProLoL wrote before, sorry I didn't see it.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> @sajunky
> So if I read the above correct, neither spdif nor i2s can share a master clock signal over the coax or hdmi alone.  Both participating devices would need to be networked to an external clock via 50/75ohm BNC cabling (series or parallel).
> 
> So whether my di20he uses it's internal oxco or the external Morion doxco, even if my r2r7's oxco is identical in spec, there must be some phase shift between the two clocks.  The exact shift is determined by the moment in time that I turn these devices on.  Assuming 180 degrees is the worst shift, I wonder if that's enough to make it a bad listening session?  And then what duration of time would need to elapse before these clocks naturally drift back into perfect phase?
> ...


A phase shift has no incidence with an asynch dac.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@sajunky
If I'm synch'ing both DI20 and DAC, then I would assume one external clock is better then two external clocks, no?
If I were asked what's wrong with two external clocks I would think it's because the 10M-per-second peeks don't line up perfect (that I was calling phase shift).
Is that synchronicity also important (accuracy asside)?


----------



## jase01

DecentLevi said:


> I thought it was supposed to be burned in with music playing, though I may have my 'wires crossed'.
> 
> Also another issue I've been having with the 4.07 Beta firmware is reversed channels. I didn't always notice it until I starting doing either a manual sound test on the Windows playback device properties that does a 'ping' in the left channel first then the right channel, or by playing a song which has a sound on the right or left channel that you're familiar with, revealing it starts up with the channels reversed a good percentage of the time.



I mentioned the same thing in post 1907. Good to know I wasn’t hallucinating! Mine occurred on initial start up of the DI-20HE but after 24 hours it had returned to normal, without my having changed anything or power cycled. Periodic checks since (I find it easiest to use an audio test album with left and right channel identification tracks) have all revealed left and right channels to be correct.


----------



## FredA (Sep 4, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> @sajunky
> If I'm synch'ing both DI20 and DAC, then I would assume one external clock is better then two external clocks, no?
> If I were asked what's wrong with two external clocks I would think it's because the 10M-per-second peeks don't line up perfect (that I was calling phase shift).
> Is that synchronicity also important (accuracy asside)?


If you connect both the di and dac to the same clock, the dac could then (if supported) run in synch mode meaning  just apply a FIFO. No overflow or underflow is possible in this scenario.

If reclocking is still applied,   i suppose it will do a much better job than wben having two clocks involved. 

A phase shift with a reclocking dac has not incidence, nor does it have one if the dac just runs a FIFO and is fed with a synched source.  By synched, i mean both the source and dac have the same exact data rate, meaning the same clock, in phase or not.


----------



## FredA

What is confusing is the fact that with some dacs, like the Master-7, when fed i2s, use the clock signal that is part of the i2s signal. These dacs are designated as synchronous dacs. Some dacs of the past would do the same thing with spdif signals, which is not ideal cause extracting the clock from spdif is not easy.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> If reclocking is still applied, i suppose it will do a much better job than wben having two clocks involved.


you mean in series, like an uptone regen into a DI20?
I'm describing a configuration that I assume is BAD, which is operate two morion clocks in parallel, one dedicated to DI20HE and the other to DAC.
(then I wanted to discuss why this would be bad)


----------



## FredA

I mean, both the dac and the di20he fed by the same clock, Morion or other, and the dac just appling a fifo (no reclocking) is the best possible configuration.


----------



## FredA

Running two different clock means two different data rates, same as what you have right now since you have no 10M input,  but it should be better with the 2 morions because of it having lower phase noise level, especially in the lower frequencies.


----------



## DecentLevi (Sep 4, 2020)

FredA said:


> Skipping a song does not fix this? Or else you should be fine just rebooting the computer. I never noticed this issue. But i don't.switch often between P and S.


Nope, once my DI-20 settles into a configuration the only way to fix it is to power-cycle it (turn off / on) or cycle through any of the settings on the front panel and back again. Whether that configuration is earsplitting white noise, background hiss or reversed R/L channels it only goes away after cycling through settings or rebooting the DI-20 (has nothing to do with my computer), and sometimes that can take 10 times like the flip-of-a-coin until it decides to behave again. Some days I get lucky and it's perfect for the whole day, but I dare not touch any settings, LOL. Kingwa noted this stereo issue as well for a possible firmware fix.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@FredA
I meant if I had an R7HE w/10mhz input
both units support a clock
both units get a dedicated morion clock
but, sharing one morion would be better right?

This is my first language and I suck at asking anything more complex than "which one should I buy?"
I wonder if there are audio forums where you can enter a room and voice chat -- I'm using Microsoft Teams all day and getting spoiled.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> @FredA
> I meant if I had an R7HE w/10mhz input
> both units support a clock
> both units get a dedicated morion clock
> ...


I suck at speaking! You writing is not bad, you just have to cut to the point. Your writing is good but dense, so difficult for a foreign Englsih speaker like me.

 But yes, sharing the same clock should be better. How much depends on the reclocking algorithm. Normally, reclocking a signal that is synched should produced better results. Also, It depends on how low jitter is kept on its way to the two devices and inside them. And finally, if there is a way to tell the dac not to reclock, but just apply a fifo and clocking, it is the best thing possible because then the whole chain would work in synch, as the di20 itself does not reclock, hence its great sound quality.


----------



## FredA

DecentLevi said:


> Nope, once my DI-20 settles into a configuration the only way to fix it is to power-cycle it (turn off / on) or cycle through any of the settings on the front panel and back again. Whether that configuration is earsplitting white noise, background hiss or reversed R/L channels it only goes away after cycling through settings or rebooting the DI-20 (has nothing to do with my computer), and sometimes that can take 10 times like the flip-of-a-coin until it decides to behave again. Some days I get lucky and it's perfect for the whole day, but I dare not touch any settings, LOL. Kingwa noted this stereo issue as well for a possible firmware fix.


Yeah. This clearly indicates a bug, and it should eventually be fixed.


----------



## jazzbug

I switched back and forth from P to S then finally settled on P. After reading different posts recently I decided to try it again.

My library mainly are classical, switched to S this morning instant impression was all the hifi vocabulary, bigger soundstage, pin point instruments, articulate separation of ensemble. I enjoyed a lot, esp with new recording of symphony it's really sharp image, even with famous vintge Mercury albums. I'm really happy.

Then I needed to switch to some vocal easy listening later on, in case my partner would have enough of the serious listening for the whole day. it's still the same interpretation but I realized straight awat it wouldn't make me toe tapping as much. I went back to P then I felt the inviting and engaging was back, although I noticed with the same track felt slightly flatter, dimmer or controlled than S. 

Guess I have options


----------



## ProLoL

jazzbug said:


> I switched back and forth from P to S then finally settled on P. After reading different posts recently I decided to try it again.
> 
> My library mainly are classical, switched to S this morning instant impression was all the hifi vocabulary, bigger soundstage, pin point instruments, articulate separation of ensemble. I enjoyed a lot, esp with new recording of symphony it's really sharp image, even with famous vintge Mercury albums. I'm really happy.
> 
> ...


Agree with you on the toe tapping with P, the S makes me think oh it's lovely but P makes me wanna move.


----------



## Articnoise

Wynnytsky said:


> @FredA
> I meant if I had an R7HE w/10mhz input
> both units support a clock
> both units get a dedicated morion clock
> ...



I don’t think that’s a giving that sharing the same external master clock should _always_ be better than if each has its own dedicated clock. It depends on things like cable length which one is best. With an external clock shorter cable is always better as is the quality of cable.

The only way to really know is to test it, because what’s best SQ in theory is not always best in practice.


----------



## Oepsie

ProLoL said:


> Agree with you on the toe tapping with P, the S makes me think oh it's lovely but P makes me wanna move.


It’s interesting.. in my setup, it is the other way around  S is definitely more engaging and natural, whereas P is more smooth and with finer details.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 5, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> @sajunky
> If I'm synch'ing both DI20 and DAC, then I would assume one external clock is better then two external clocks, no?
> If I were asked what's wrong with two external clocks I would think it's because the 10M-per-second peeks don't line up perfect (that I was calling phase shift).
> Is that synchronicity also important (accuracy asside)?


I understand now what you mean. In cheap implementation there is a problem with so called asynchronous synchronisatio as is not completely jitter free. In the case of the connection between DI-20 and a DAC I expect it is not a case of asynchronous synchronisation. A function of the external clock is to make sure that input data clock runs at  exactly the same frequency as the internal clock in the DAC. A phase is not relevant, but it must run no faster, no slower. I mean, a source clock must run at exactly the same *average speed*. Having it assured, the  FIFO buffer in the R7 FPGA will never run out of data and do not overfill. This is an ideal scenario for jitter free transfer.


----------



## PLGA

What a weird digital world!

Last night I tried my W4S USB Reclocker between my SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo SE and the DI-20, with NO hope for better sound whatsoever, and it turned out to be a very good improvement in sound quality! Mostly removing a very thin layer of harshness that was somehow bodering me a little.

That's the opposite of what I've got the first time I tried it! I don't understand, but I don't care as it sounds better.

Maybe it a firmware issue as I have now 4.07 beta and then I think I had 3.9...


----------



## PLGA

Someone said KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is the way to go, but not on digital in my experience.

I started with wi-fi streaming from my Notebook and then USB cable to my DAC.
Now there's five different digital devices before my DAC, none of them with wi-fi and/or a PC, and every one of them gave it's share of sound improvement. My system never sounded better and I've heard systems costing +100k that sounded much worse.

Todays digital rig:
Ubiquity Router
Uptone ER
SOtM SMS Ultra Neo SE
W4S USB Reclocker
DI-20
R8 DAC


----------



## Wynnytsky

sajunky said:


> A function of the external clock is to make sure that input data clock runs at exactly the same frequency as the internal clock in the DAC


Ah, so the internal TXCO/OXCO is still involved even when using external clock?  If so do you think a DI20 + OXCO upgrade would outperform a DI20 + stock TXCO when using external clocks only?

@PLGA
What LPS/s do you use, and what do they power?  I liked the W4S USB reclocker with the Keces P8 - really lights up the music when powering that or the computer.  That W4S was the least destructive, most transparent reclocker I've used - the extra USB cable it necessitates probably had a bigger signature than my w4s itself.  The passive Intona had an even lighter touch, but I think that's just galvanic isolation and it doesn't reclock.  Stuff from iFi had the biggest footprint and the uptone regen was somewhere in the middle [in terms of losing detail and adding color].

My 50ohm Uptone ER arrives Tuesday.


----------



## PLGA

Wynnytsky said:


> Ah, so the internal TXCO/OXCO is still involved even when using external clock?  If so do you think a DI20 + OXCO upgrade would outperform a DI20 + stock TXCO when using external clocks only?
> 
> @PLGA
> What LPS/s do you use, and what do they power?  I liked the W4S USB reclocker with the Keces P8 - really lights up the music when powering that or the computer.  That W4S was the least destructive, most transparent reclocker I've used - the extra USB cable it necessitates probably had a bigger signature than my w4s itself.  The passive Intona had an even lighter touch, but I think that's just galvanic isolation and it doesn't reclock.  Stuff from iFi had the biggest footprint and the uptone regen was somewhere in the middle [in terms of losing detail and adding color].
> ...



To be honest, I tried yesterday the W4S USB Reclocker RUR with the provided walwart as all of my LPS are on use and I didn't have any one left.

The USB cable I used originally between the SOtM SMS Ultra Neo SE and DI-20 was a 0.4m Evolved Curious USB cable and now is between the SOtM SMS-200 and the RUR. As I didn't have another "audiophile" cable around, I used a 0.5m chinese USB cable I had on stock to connect the RUR with the DI-20. 

So, even with these not optimal walwart and USB cable, the RUR improve things considerable.


----------



## sajunky

Wynnytsky said:


> Ah, so the internal TXCO/OXCO is still involved even when using external clock?  If so do you think a DI20 + OXCO upgrade would outperform a DI20 + stock TXCO when using external clocks only?


Sorry, I don't have any personal experience with DI-20 nor an external clock setup and have yet to add a decent USB galvanic separator on my system, I know it is needed.

From the technical point of view I would rather focus on upgrading clock on your dac. A step up can bring a regenerative power supply. Upgrading clock on the DI-20 makes only sense when a DAC do not have external clock input, but I can be wrong. Why not Email Kingwa and ask this question? His response is always honest, not pushing sales like others do.


----------



## Articnoise

A master/reference clock is a precision clock that provides timing signals to synchronize slave clocks. The internal clocks are never bypassed then using an external master clock because they have different tasks and operates on totally different frequencies.

Jay has explained it in easy terms here:
https://audiobacon.net/2018/10/25/mutec-ref-10-master-clock-the-digital-audios-heartbeat/


----------



## Articnoise

PLGA said:


> To be honest, I tried yesterday the W4S USB Reclocker RUR with the provided walwart as all of my LPS are on use and I didn't have any one left.
> 
> The USB cable I used originally between the SOtM SMS Ultra Neo SE and DI-20 was a 0.4m Evolved Curious USB cable and now is between the SOtM SMS-200 and the RUR. As I didn't have another "audiophile" cable around, I used a 0.5m chinese USB cable I had on stock to connect the RUR with the DI-20.
> 
> So, even with these not optimal walwart and USB cable, the RUR improve things considerable.



To be frank, cheap switching walwarts is not to be used in a good audio system. They do more harm than good IMO.


----------



## PLGA

Articnoise said:


> To be frank, cheap switching walwarts is not to be used in a good audio system. They do more harm than good IMO.



Yes, I know for sure, but yo try the RUR was the only way possible. The RUR Will get better with a LPS, so now I will buy a Y DC cable to split one output of my Swagman LPS that has some capacity left over.


----------



## ProLoL

Just tried the uptone usb regen with linear psu and uspcb, connecting my blocked 5v usb straight to the DI20 is better.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ProLoL said:


> Just tried the uptone usb regen with linear psu and uspcb, connecting my blocked 5v usb straight to the DI20 is better.



what's your streamer/renderer, and is it getting LPS?

never noticed the USBCB - that would have made lots of sense when I was chaining stuff together with shorty curious cables.


----------



## ProLoL (Sep 8, 2020)

Just using my laptop. The combo with the USBCB does relax the sound, good for harsh systems I guess. The Ifi Ipower making things sound brighter but still a relaxed PRaT. Using the usb dongle instead of the USBCB makes things brighter and a bit more energetic but connecting my pangea 0.5m straight to the DI20 has better PRaT and energy. Using different device between the DI20 and my laptop removes the wow factor for me.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ProLoL said:


> Using different device between the DI20 and my laptop removes the wow factor for me


good way to put it.  I would think a win10 laptop is the least blessed source for hifi, and yours still can't be bettered by a gadget.  Maybe it's a horsepower thing?  What's your core count - is hyper-threading enabled?  Have you ever been tempted to power the laptop with a 19v LPS (ex: HDPlex, Keces P8)?  On my computer the HDPlex really takes the edge off, and I'm sitting several rows back with the lights down low.  The P8 is more expressive in the highs, bringing me several rows forward and leaving nothing in the shadows.  My friend prefers the HDPlex and I prefer the P8.


----------



## ProLoL

My laptop is nothing special and would probably benefit from the offerings you've mentioned. The thing I love about audio gd's amanero, is once you block the 5v pin on the usb, it's internally powered by the DI20 and it's ultra clean.
Kingwa mentioned " The DI-20 had built in ultra speed isolation, for work most stable, don't connect external USB isolation , just let the USB connect to computer directly. "

For me, once the PRaT goes slightly relaxed it's over for me even if the gadget / device improved the tone, it's a matter of taste.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@ProLoL is your avatar image a TVC preamp that you own?  What is it?


----------



## ProLoL

Wynnytsky said:


> @ProLoL is your avatar image a TVC preamp that you own?  What is it?



Hehe ye, that one is mine, using AM audio transformers.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@ProLoL I remember seeing a listing for this in CA for around $1000usd when I was in the market




Then I almost got scammed with a fake Music First listing before I ended up just buying a friend's tvc/avc


----------



## Articnoise

PLGA said:


> Yes, I know for sure, but yo try the RUR was the only way possible. The RUR Will get better with a LPS, so now I will buy a Y DC cable to split one output of my Swagman LPS that has some capacity left over.



I do not recommend* using one output to two different devices. A power supply with two separate rails is okay, but not to let two different units share the same rail and ground.

*I'm sorry if I may sound critical, that's not my wishes. I just like to share some friendly advises.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Does anyone have any idea when Kingwa is planning to finalize changes to the DI firmware?  We have been in beta for a while.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Does anyone have any idea when Kingwa is planning to finalize changes to the DI firmware?  We have been in beta for a while.



The best thing would be to ask Kingwa himself and let us know.


----------



## soundlogic

FredA said:


> The best thing would be to ask Kingwa himself and let us know.


I have been chomping at the bit to ask the same question, figuring that FredA and a few others here have garnished some inside scoops from Kingwa in the past. Although the latest firmware is doing a good job, my external clock does NOT sound as good as the internal...and yes, I believe this was somewhat the intentions of this firmware update. So, add me to the list of folks who are eagerly awaiting the update that will let the external clock sound as it should: a substantial sonic upgrade...


----------



## FredA

Same here.


----------



## ProLoL (Oct 6, 2020)

edited.


----------



## Wynnytsky

uptone ether regen really cleans up treble like your listening to a good CD transport (though I imagine I stand more to gain because of my 100ft ethernet run).  It solves issues upstream before they get to your computer, so no collateral damage to speak of.  I'm giving it 9v from HDPlex and a 50ohm square wave.  I'm foresee this being a set-and-forget purchase.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Where does anyone get the idea that Kingwa is even planning to improve the external clock aspect of the firmware beyond where it is already?

He already did that in a previous firmware upgrade where it specifically mentions on the update that it was optimized for the Mutec clock.


----------



## FredA

For each fw version, timing needs to be optimized.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Sep 9, 2020)

Interesting.

I am pretty much resigned at this point to the external clock being more of a lateral move than a clear upgrade.  Kind of like NOS vs 8X on the R-7HE; can't say which is clearly better just that both are great and they are slightly different. 
Technically- my external clock is still definitely bringing out more detail than the internal clock but the internal clock seems more natural and more transparent.  I'm not willing to keep my external clock for the equal but different option because it is just not worth it to me.  I guess I will give it around six more months to see if any firmware upgrades bring the external clock ahead of instead of equal but different to the internal clock.


----------



## FredA

I reverted to 3.98. This seems better to me with the external.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Do you like 3.98 with external better then 4.07 with internal? 

If Kingwa can make his internal clock sound as good as a $5000 external clock- then he is a genius...


----------



## FredA

Well i would say he can make the external even better. Slightly. Better low bass and imaging.and slightly better res. I am not sure 3.98 with external is better than 4.07b with internal. But it certainly has better low bass and imaging without giving up smoothness.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Sep 9, 2020)

My external definitely wins in bass even on 4.07.  However the internal sounds more naked;- less colored IMHO.  I like that hyper-transparency.


----------



## Articnoise

This is a very interesting topic that I think is worth exploring further both in theory and in practice.

The question is what would make an external clock sound better than the very nice internal clocks in the DI20 in theory? I can imagine that it depends on the following four aspects:

1. Better clock oscillator (than the DI20)

2. Better PSU (than the DI20HE)

3. Less vibrations (than the DI20)

4. Better chassis shield (than the DI20)


----------



## ProLoL

Articnoise said:


> This is a very interesting topic that I think is worth exploring further both in theory and in practice.
> 
> The question is what would make an external clock sound better than the very nice internal clocks in the DI20 in theory? I can imagine that it depends on the following four aspects:
> 
> ...



Exactly what I was thinking.. an external clock wouldn't be a night and day difference from the great internal.


----------



## jimmychan

Is it possible to have some scientific measurement to find out the difference of Int clock vs ext clock?
For example measure the jitter and noise level of the Mclk Or something like that.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I am not a technical minded person- so I want to ask you all if it would be worth it to consider replacing the DI's amanero usb receiver with something better like an xmos?

Why does Kingwa not use something better than the Amanero?


----------



## ProLoL

rsbrsvp said:


> I am not a technical minded person- so I want to ask you all if it would be worth it to consider replacing the DI's amanero usb receiver with something better like an xmos?
> 
> Why does Kingwa not use something better than the Amanero?



Simply cause it's better than xmos. You won't get anything better than his custom amanero hehe...


----------



## rsbrsvp

good answer.  I did not know that.


----------



## DecentLevi

rsbrsvp said:


> My external definitely wins in bass even on 4.07.  However the internal sounds more naked;- less colored IMHO.  I like that hyper-transparency.


Naked and transparent - this is a sexy sound! Makes you wanna do a tease dance, and it sounds / looks snazzy without that transparent thang on it, LOL.
But this v4.07 is a little disloyal sometimes.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Sep 13, 2020)

The reason finalized firmware has not been developed yet is Kingwa needs MORE input from all of us.

Here is a quick email conversation we had:
__________________________________________________

Hi Kingwa.

I bought the Mutec Reference 10 SE-120 clock for my R-7HE and DI-20HE.  As you know it is one of the best 10mhz clocks in the world.

It works perfectly but the internal clocks sound more transparent and more natural to my ears.  Even the detail retrieval of internal clocks is at least equal and maybe better than the external clock.

Will there be firmware upgrades to improve external clock performance or will the internal clocks always perform better?


Thanks,

Steven



Dear Steven,
If your DI20HE work with the V4.07 firmware, this firmware is the version most for perform DOP output and based on the internal clock design, we need customer feedback the DOP function or other side if had bugs then edit it and improve the external clock codes.
If you want to test the external clock , you can load the older firmware to the DI20, the older firmware is improve the performance on external clock input.

Kingwa


----------



## mudhole (Sep 11, 2020)

Is there any other members experienced the issue that coax input  to i2s output on 3.98 3.99 or 4.07 has no sound? I know another member experienced the same issue, but both of us use the HDMI moded reference 1 DAC. I don't know it is the firmware's problem or DAC's problem.  Hope some more members can give it a try on different DAC.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Sep 11, 2020)

I refreshed to 3.98.  Still like internal a lot.  clearer and more open sounding than external clock. External has better bass and better focus.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Several DI users including myself have reported loosing their amanero firmware every time they change their DI firmware thereby needing to refresh their amanero firmware after every DI firmware update.  I have discovered and confirmed that this is NOT a fault in the DI but rather in procedure.

Going according to the following chronological steps I have refreshed my DI firmware several times without loosing my amanero firmware:

1.  Hook up the USB blaster to the DI while the DI is ON but the USB cable is disconnected from the DI.
2.  Update DI firmware.
3.  Reconnect USB cable from computer to the DI while computer and DI remain on.
4. Disconnect USB baster from DI while DI remains ON.
5. Turn off the DI. Wait about 10 seconds and reboot the DI.

Other methods may work- but I have  had success using this procedure many times.


----------



## newabc

Hi DI-20 community,

I am planning to recommend DI-20/DI-20HE to the editon xx headphone users in head-fi.org. I believe DI-20 is the most valuable part to add to my chain that it, as a re-clocker, advances the hearing for almost all the areas. And it already comes with LPS inside (as most of the AGD products at least from 2013).

The brief introduction of edition xx: The hifiman edition xx is a reversion of the 1st gen edition x, an over $1000 MSRP can when it was released. By changing cables, it changes its aspects a lot. (For example, an OFC cable in amazon, near a AKG K702 taste; but a PCOCC cable from Lunashops, obvious warmer with 10-12% higher volume.) Usually more advanced cables, much more advanced hearing. 

Can our community brings some links to the proper DI-20 reviews or introductions like:
(1) What improvements does the DI-20/DI-20HE bring to the current chain?

Other than the very high price silver cable,
(2) After getting a DI-20/DI-20HE, what USB and HDMI cables does our community already recommend? (For example, Fred recommended blue jeans  series-fe cable.)
(3) What BNC SPDIF cables does our community recommend?

Lots of edition xx users in head-fi are using small amps like THX series(monoprice THX 887, drop THX 789, SMSL SP200, etc.) in their edition xx reviews. Actually, the AGD C-2/NFB-1amp's 2nd hand prices are already at the price range of SMSL SP200, but for the multiple LPSes inside, their sizes are huge compared to THX series.

Thanks!


----------



## soundlogic

I have emailed Kingwa also, requesting updated firmware to allow the external clock to sound superior as it did in the earlier FW versions. I gave some feedback related to my experience of S&P mode not working properly for me in earlier FW version. Bring on the popcorn!


----------



## rsbrsvp (Sep 13, 2020)

*Thanks to everyone who reports to Kingwa on the DI performance with the firmware upgrades.  He needs feedback to continue.*

I use ONLY USB in and HDMI out and with every single firware edition- I have ZERO issues with this setup.

I tried several previous firmware's with my external clock and to my ears 3.993 is the best match with the external clock.  4.07 wins with internal.  IMHO!


----------



## ProLoL

Anyone else experience loud static and channel imbalances via coax out?


----------



## myshark

ProLoL said:


> Anyone else experience loud static and channel imbalances via coax out?


Hi,
I have di20 with fw 4.07.
I use the aes and i2s output to the dac.
There will be loud static when using different source it seems.
My sources are auraliti pk90 usb and volumio x86 mini. I will have this prohlem when using the auraliti which uses linux mod customised os. But no problem with volumio.
Normally happenned when i try to experiment and change source from one to the other.
Doing the same thing direct to the w4sdac2v2 usb input is not a problem.
I feel it have something to do with source stream quality or os compatibility with the amareno in the di20.
now i dont change anything.

Thanks to this community, i have learn a lot. All are very helpfull. Thanks agajn.
/shark


----------



## PLGA

ProLoL said:


> Anyone else experience loud static and channel imbalances via coax out?



Yes, I have channel imbalance once in a while.

Loud static if I reset the song.


----------



## ProLoL

Wynnytsky said:


> @ProLoL I remember seeing a listing for this in CA for around $1000usd when I was in the market
> 
> 
> Then I almost got scammed with a fake Music First listing before I ended up just buying a friend's tvc/avc



The guy that made me this amazing preamp, best I've heard, has 2 last AM transformers to make the last preamp, highly recommended.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AM-Audio-M...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## interweb-tech

My first mod to my  Audio-GD DI-20HE. Rubber baby buggy bumpers. My keyboard is at just the right height to hit the buttons on the DI so I added some bumpers.


----------



## myshark

PLGA said:


> Yes, I have channel imbalance once in a while.
> 
> Loud static if I reset the song.



When i ask to fix the fw.

Dear Kamarul,
Thank you , we plan to work on its firmware this month.
Kingwa


----------



## FredA

myshark said:


> When i ask to fix the fw.
> 
> Dear Kamarul,
> Thank you , we plan to work on its firmware this month.
> Kingwa


Yep, Kingwa told he is now able to work on the fw.


----------



## PLGA

I just changed my three ethernet cables from my Modem to my SOtM SMS Ultra Neo streamer, two of them regular CAT8 cables and one Cable Matters CAT8 1m long, to Supra CAT8 cables. Well, I was not expecting a big change, but eventhough it wasnt a night and day difference, I think it was one of the biggest upgrades on lowering the harshness in the sound. I'm very happy with the result and totally worthwile.

My point is that the DI-20 is, as expected, very sensitive to upgrades on the digital chain before it. I added the Uptone ER, then a Ubiquity router, then the W4S RUR and then the Supra CAT8 cables and ALL of them made a significant improvement in sound quality. It's a remarkable device, but it's not magical.


----------



## Tango Sierra

Ran into a problem with my DI-20HE which was shipped to me at the very end of December 2019. Since the beginning of January, I have truly enjoyed the combination of the Aurender N100H music player, DI-20, Master 7S, Master 9, and especially after I added the Uptone EtherREGEN in July. I recently took the DI-20HE a hundred miles away to my brother's house so he could hear it with his MyTek Brooklyn DAC and Innous Zenith MKII music player. He just sat there listening and repeating "Oh my God". I think he liked it.

Now on to my problem. I then purchased a MyTek Brooklyn + because with some types of music (only some) I like it's more upfront sound than the M7S and also I like to finish the unfolding of MQA files on Tidal. I thought if I connected the Aurender to the DI-20 USB and the Brooklyn to the DI-20 by AES/EBU and the M7S to the DI-20 via BNC I could select the DAC I wanted to listen to by just choosing the correct input on the Master 9 preamp. It did not work. In fact, now my DI20 doesn't transmit at all. I can connect the Aurender USB to the USB of any of my three DACs (I also have a Chord Hugo 2) or Schiit Etir and the Aurender will identify on its screen which device is connected but the Aurender will not identify the DI-20 when connected to it. Could I have corrupted the DI-20's Amanero firmware? Plus, shouldn't my plan to have the two DACs connected to the DI-20 have worked being that the DI-20 Amanero from the Aurender USB would be the only USB connection required in the chain?


----------



## myshark

Tango Sierra said:


> Ran into a problem with my DI-20HE which was shipped to me at the very end of December 2019. Since the beginning of January, I have truly enjoyed the combination of the Aurender N100H music player, DI-20, Master 7S, Master 9, and especially after I added the Uptone EtherREGEN in July. I recently took the DI-20HE a hundred miles away to my brother's house so he could hear it with his MyTek Brooklyn DAC and Innous Zenith MKII music player. He just sat there listening and repeating "Oh my God". I think he liked it.
> 
> Now on to my problem. I then purchased a MyTek Brooklyn + because with some types of music (only some) I like it's more upfront sound than the M7S and also I like to finish the unfolding of MQA files on Tidal. I thought if I connected the Aurender to the DI-20 USB and the Brooklyn to the DI-20 by AES/EBU and the M7S to the DI-20 via BNC I could select the DAC I wanted to listen to by just choosing the correct input on the Master 9 preamp. It did not work. In fact, now my DI20 doesn't transmit at all. I can connect the Aurender USB to the USB of any of my three DACs (I also have a Chord Hugo 2) or Schiit Etir and the Aurender will identify on its screen which device is connected but the Aurender will not identify the DI-20 when connected to it. Could I have corrupted the DI-20's Amanero firmware? Plus, shouldn't my plan to have the two DACs connected to the DI-20 have worked being that the DI-20 Amanero from the Aurender USB would be the only USB connection required in the chain?


I connect the DI20  to w4sdac2v2 via i2s and smsl su8v2 via spdif with no problem.
Sometimes the usb input, when connected to different computers will have problems. I normally either power cycle the source and DI20 until ok or reflash the amareno as last resort. Normally this would work.
My source is volumio and auraliti.
Hope it helps.


----------



## FredA

Could be an accidental reset of the amanero. I had to reprogram mine 3 month ago.


----------



## Articnoise

Tango Sierra said:


> Ran into a problem with my DI-20HE which was shipped to me at the very end of December 2019. Since the beginning of January, I have truly enjoyed the combination of the Aurender N100H music player, DI-20, Master 7S, Master 9, and especially after I added the Uptone EtherREGEN in July. I recently took the DI-20HE a hundred miles away to my brother's house so he could hear it with his MyTek Brooklyn DAC and Innous Zenith MKII music player. He just sat there listening and repeating "Oh my God". I think he liked it.
> 
> Now on to my problem. I then purchased a MyTek Brooklyn + because with some types of music (only some) I like it's more upfront sound than the M7S and also I like to finish the unfolding of MQA files on Tidal. I thought if I connected the Aurender to the DI-20 USB and the Brooklyn to the DI-20 by AES/EBU and the M7S to the DI-20 via BNC I could select the DAC I wanted to listen to by just choosing the correct input on the Master 9 preamp. It did not work. In fact, now my DI20 doesn't transmit at all. I can connect the Aurender USB to the USB of any of my three DACs (I also have a Chord Hugo 2) or Schiit Etir and the Aurender will identify on its screen which device is connected but the Aurender will not identify the DI-20 when connected to it. Could I have corrupted the DI-20's Amanero firmware? Plus, shouldn't my plan to have the two DACs connected to the DI-20 have worked being that the DI-20 Amanero from the Aurender USB would be the only USB connection required in the chain?



I am not sure, but I don’t think it’s possible to connect two DACs to the DI20 at the same time. There is no selectors (that I know about) on the DI20. One button there we can change output connectors/protocol. Without a selector how would the DI20 know which protocol to operate and output?


----------



## myshark

Articnoise said:


> I am not sure, but I don’t think it’s possible to connect two DACs to the DI20 at the same time. There is no selectors (that I know about) on the DI20. One button there we can change output connectors/protocol. Without a selector how would the DI20 know which protocol to operate and output?


This kingwa reply when i asked him b4 i boughtnthe di20.
Dear Kamarul,
1. the output i.e. the AES, spdif and iis, could be use simultaneously? All output active?-------------Yes all outputs can output simultaneously.

/shark


----------



## Oepsie

myshark said:


> This kingwa reply when i asked him b4 i boughtnthe di20.
> Dear Kamarul,
> 1. the output i.e. the AES, spdif and iis, could be use simultaneously? All output active?-------------Yes all outputs can output simultaneously.
> 
> /shark


But the di-20 needs to lock signal and it cannot do that with two dacs at the same time? Mine works fine with aes and coax at the same time to the same dac. But I believe it would be a different scenario with two different dacs?


----------



## Articnoise

myshark said:


> This kingwa reply when i asked him b4 i boughtnthe di20.
> Dear Kamarul,
> 1. the output i.e. the AES, spdif and iis, could be use simultaneously? All output active?-------------Yes all outputs can output simultaneously.
> 
> /shark



Thanks Shark. To have all outputs operating simultaneously sounds like a bad solution, IMO. A selection button would be much better.

I'm wondering (not directed to you Shark), can the DI20 clock really operate at its best if clocking many different digital interfaces simultaneously? And what happens to the unused digital signal/energy isn’t it going to be a source for noise?


----------



## Articnoise

Oepsie said:


> But the di-20 needs to lock signal and it cannot do that with two dacs at the same time? Mine works fine with aes and coax at the same time to the same dac. But I believe it would be a different scenario with two different dacs?



AES and SPDIF are very similar and use the same digital protocol so probably no problem. I2S and SPDIF/AES are very different and can’t be used at the same time on my Off-ramp 5 for example.


----------



## FredA

All signal are produced without condition, and i believe all outputs can he connected at the same time with active devices. I am case, i have 3 outputs (bnc, aes, i2s) hooked up to the same dac, the r7he.


----------



## myshark

FredA said:


> All signal are produced without condition, and i believe all outputs can he connected at the same time with active devices. I am case, i have 3 outputs (bnc, aes, i2s) hooked up to the same dac, the r7he.


Yes, i am hooking i2s and aes output to the same dac thus could a/b comparison by selecting which input from the dac.
 The spdif to another dac. Selecting which dac to output on the preamp. Could do a/b comparison using preamp.
/shark


----------



## Wynnytsky

I've been A/B'ing DACs via parallel outputs for over 5 years.  Don't know why it took this long but now I see interfaces are offering duplicate identical outputs (ex: 2 lvds hdmi) that allow us to make a true apples2apples comparison.

I didn't know an interface existed that DIDNT permit this -- now I know it's the offramp 5.


----------



## Articnoise

Wynnytsky said:


> I didn't know an interface existed that DIDNT permit this -- now I know it's the offramp 5.



I have not tried to connect two different interfaces with my OR5, because it’s funkier than that  and people have fried their OR5 just by disconnect it while being powered on.

From the manual:

_“Make sure the I2S connectors are mated at both ends of the cable before powering-on either the Off-Ramp 5 or the DAC. Likewise, power both down before disconnecting the I2S cable. For operation without I2S cable, make sure that the supplied terminator is plugged into the I2S output jack.”_

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/pdfs/Off-Ramp_5_User_Manual_rev_2.0.pdf


----------



## FredA

The same applies to audio-gd and the hdmi input/output, rj45 as well.


----------



## FredA (Oct 3, 2020)

Kingwa has recently announced his new power cable and has given some info about it on the audio-gd forum (in chinese) :

Many commercial cables and signal cables pay attention to material and capacity to produce sound. The power cord and speaker cord pay attention to the material and wire thickness, and the capacity is relatively small. However, the thickness of the wire directly affects the internal resistance, so the effect of plugging in the same wire for different wattage equipment varies greatly. Our power cords pay attention to the structure, I discovered wires of different structures 20 years ago, even though the same wire is used there are very big differences. Once the wire structure is determined, whether it is connected to a 10W DI20 or a hundreds of kilowatt power amplifier, it displays a consistent tone. Our power cords have been recalibrated, using copper pin plugs, and each cord is manufactured in strict accordance with regulations. The sound is unique and is unlike other base cables.


----------



## ProLoL

So fun to go back to series, parallel is more detailed yet has been fatiguing in the long run.


----------



## ProLoL

FredA said:


> Kingwa has recently announced his new power cable and has given some info about it on the audio-gd forum (in chinese) :
> 
> Many commercial cables and signal cables pay attention to material and capacity to produce sound. The power cord and speaker cord pay attention to the material and wire thickness, and the capacity is relatively small. However, the thickness of the wire directly affects the internal resistance, so the effect of plugging in the same wire for different wattage equipment varies greatly. Our power cords pay attention to the structure, I discovered wires of different structures 20 years ago, even though the same wire is used there are very big differences. Once the wire structure is determined, whether it is connected to a 10W DI20 or a hundreds of kilowatt power amplifier, it displays a consistent tone. Our power cords have been recalibrated, using copper pin plugs, and each cord is manufactured in strict accordance with regulations. The sound is unique and is unlike other base cables.



That's great to hear! I actually ordered one few days ago and will compare against a pangea ac14 mk2 with cardas grade one copper.


----------



## FredA

ProLoL said:


> So fun to go back to series, parallel is more detailed yet has been fatiguing in the long run.


I went back to 3.93 in parallel mode. I was with 4.07b in serial. Ni complaint so far.


----------



## ProLoL

FredA said:


> I went back to 3.93 in parallel mode. I was with 4.07b in serial. Ni complaint so far.



Is there a quick tutorial on how to change the firmware? I received a usb blaster with my unit.


----------



## FredA (Oct 3, 2020)

Doing the update is no problem. Installing the altera sw and the proper driver is where the difficulty is.

You can get the altera sw here

https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!172&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1

And as for installing he usb blaster driver, first you may have to uninstall a driver automatically installed by windows. To do this, you have to locate the corresponding item in the device manager (unplugging and replugging helps in that the item will disappears than reappear from/in the device list) and use the popup menu to select the corresponding choice. 

Then use this  link to manually install the driver from the altera installation directory (your have to have the altera sw installed first of course) :

https://www.driverscape.com/articles/how-to-install-a-driver-manually

Then use Kingwa's procedure for the fw update. Avoid touching the red button while the DI20 is turned on, it will reset the amanero fw.... 

Then follow this procedure below. The update connector  is at the back, no need to take off the cover. The di20 needs to be turned off while plugging/unplugging the cable, and the blaster needs to be disconnected from the update pc. The indentation in the connector goes upward. 

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R8/R8updateEN.htm


----------



## ProLoL

FredA said:


> Doing the update is no problem. Installing the altera sw and the proper driver is where the difficulty is.
> 
> You can get the altera sw here
> 
> ...



Thank you very much!


----------



## FredA

I just made corrections, so check my updated post.


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## DACLadder (Oct 5, 2020)

Kingwa has dropped a newer version of 4.07 Beta 3 firmware for the DI-20/HE.  Incremental bug fixes and clock improvements.

“Feature: Fixed the spdif output channels issue. Improve on the clocks figure.
Welcome feedback the bugs if you find.”

http://www.audio-gd.com/En audio-gd.htm


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## ProLoL

Great, would love to hear impressions.


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## FredA (Oct 5, 2020)

So far, not sure but 4.07c is definitly better than 4.07b using the external clock but i will have to go back to 3.93 to determine which one is the best. Right now, i would tend to say 3.93. It seems smoother with better imaging. They are close but last night with 3.93 was perfect, i don't feel as much pleasure with 4.07c so far but it's still early to draw a conclusion. They are close.


----------



## ProLoL

Newer firmware definitely smoother and less harsh than previous one, using internal clocks.


----------



## FredA

I am still a huge fan 3.93. It's a perfect match for my setup.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> I am still a huge fan 3.93. It's a perfect match for my setup.


Surprise...two new firmwares today: a beta2 of beloved 3.93 and a beta4 of newer 4.07. We'll have a lot of work comparing Kingwa's effort!


----------



## ProLoL

Il Cuffiotto said:


> Surprise...two new firmwares today: a beta2 of beloved 3.93 and a beta4 of newer 4.07. We'll have a lot of work comparing Kingwa's effort!


Wow just noticed those additions in their site! it's like christmas came early


----------



## FredA

Especially during the Moon Festival. Most Chinese people are on vacation.


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## rsbrsvp (Oct 7, 2020)

I assume the Beta2 of 3.93 is intended to be the best choice for external clock and the Beta 3 or 4  of 4.07 is best for internal clock.

Is that a reasonable assumption?


----------



## DACLadder

@rsbrsvp I lost track of the differences between 3.93 and 4.07.  But 3.93 beta 2 sounds excellent with external clock, I2S output, PCM, serial mode.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I assume the Beta2 of 3.93 is intended to be the best choice for external clock and the Beta 3 or 4  of 4.07 is best for internal clock.
> 
> Is that a reasonable assumption?


I think they are two different design appoaches (branches) regarding timing, hence the two different sound flavors. 

I am with 3.93b2/external/i2s/parallel and and i enjoy the ride very much. Like a more resolved 3.93.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Well kingwa specifically wrote to me that he intends to perfect the external clock feature.

So- I wonder which beta is aimed at the external clock.


----------



## FredA

I would say both.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I'm just not in the mood to test the newest versions so I look forward to everyone's comparisons of the new 3.93 and the new 4.07.
I'm especially interested in the external clock improvements....


----------



## anroj

rsbrsvp said:


> I'm just not in the mood to test the newest versions so I look forward to everyone's comparisons of the new 3.93 and the new 4.07.
> I'm especially interested in the external clock improvements....


I'm currently using the new 4.07 FW version and I find it to be very musical. Better instrument separation and soundstage width and depth. For me, it has also quieted the PCM/DSD switching noise. I have not tried the new 3.93 version. I plan to do that tonight.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Keep the reports coming.......


----------



## FredA

I think 3.93b2 is awesome. A bit more resolved and cleaner than 3.93. Very smooth. I haven't tried the last 4.07. So far, this branch of fws is not as smooth. For me, 3.93b is perfect. But i figure your preference will depend on your setup. 

It is easy for me to swap fws as i have a dedicated mini-pc for that purpose under  3 feet away from the di20he. I will try the last 4.07 but not tonight.


----------



## jazzbug

With internal clock USB in I2s out, please tell your impression of which FW? thx


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## FredA (Oct 7, 2020)

Very good too. Similar, a little less 3d and with a bass that does not go as deep. Same as most of the firmwares. Except 4.07, the original, which was not as smooth using the external. And 3.98 and 3.99 to some extent.


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## ProLoL (Oct 7, 2020)

My findings with internal clocks using Parallel I2S out:

4.07beta3 = 9/10
3.93beta1 = 7.5/10
3.93beta2 = 9/10 - musical, relaxed, immersive, full, wet and organic sounding, has that story telling quality.
4.07beta4 = Same as beta 2.

* I got my unit 2 months ago, if it was equipped with the 4.07beta2 then it sounds exactly like 4.07beta4.

* For me it's a toss between the 4.07beta3 and the 3.93beta2.


----------



## jazzbug

Thx ProLoL for the review, I'd try out  4.07beta3 and the 3.93beta2 later.


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## jimmychan (Oct 8, 2020)

I listed the checksum of the firmware for easy reference.

Firmware version;           Checksum

DP-20_V3.93.jic ;            027EE2E8
DP-20_V3.93beta2.jic ;   027D8F98

DP-20_V4.07beta1.jic ;   0283C579
DP-20_V4.07beta3.jic ;   0283143F
DP-20_V4.07beta4.jic ;   0284D374


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## jimmychan

Besides the SQ of different version of firmware, I found the following happened to my Reference 1.
With V3.93 & V3.93b2, the SPDIF in of DI works properly with Ref. 1.
With V4.07bX, SPDIF in of DI does not work with Ref. 1 but R7.
There are some timing compatibility issues.


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## rsbrsvp (Oct 8, 2020)

My favorite FW in my set-up with external clock so far has been 3.993.  Hyper incredible detail, full bass, mega dynamic punch; - perhaps many would say it is sterile; and I would actually agree but once my ear got used to it I cannot so easily go back to smooth.  Sounds NOTHING like the R2R style I have known for the last 10 years and I love it the way it is;- raw hyper detail and transparency with no smoothing effect.

I have not tested the new versions yet.  I'm waiting for more reports using external clock.  Maybe my tastes will change???


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> My favorite FW in my set-up with external clock so far has been 3.993.  Hyper incredible detail, full bass, mega dynamic punch; - perhaps many would say it is sterile; and I would actually agree but once my ear got used to it I cannot so easily go back to smooth.  Sounds NOTHING like the R2R style I have known for the last 10 years and I love it the way it is;- raw hyper detail and transparency with no smoothing effect.
> 
> I have not tested the new versions yet.  I'm waiting for more reports using external clock.  Maybe my tastes will change???


There is always an adaptation to make, we adjust to the sound.

I am not yet sure if that don't prefer the original. 3.93 to 3.93beta2 overall. For newer recordings, it's 3.93b2, no contest. For the old stuff, i will have to try 3.93 again.


----------



## Articnoise

I didn’t like V4.07beta1 at all (USB in and SPDIF out).

I’m not sure which firmware my DI20HE was shipped with (I guess it was V3.93beta1) but it was the most analogue and fluid, and sounded overall great.

Yesterday I tried V3.93beta2 and it sound very nice as well (USB in and SPDIF out). I will have to use this for a week and then compare it to V3.93beta1 before I can say which of the two versions of 3.93 I like the most.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 8, 2020)

Interesting to note that we kind of all have a problem here.  The problem is we have to many options; all very very good ones.

If we feel that for some music or some moods we like "S" and some "P"- we just switch it in 5 seconds.   If we feel like up-sampling or NOS- just switch it on your dac in 5 seconds. The option to enjoy these alternatives is easily and quickly adjustable at a touch of a button.

Now- it is true that switching FW in the DI can be done in around three or so minutes- but still- you need to hook it up to your PC.  Just not practical to switch several times between songs or moods.   Switching once or twice a week- perhaps is reasonable but not really to much more.

I was really hoping there would be one FW which was clearly the best.  That hope does not seem likely to come to fruition.

The good news is that all the recent FW's are stunning and SUBSTANTIALLY better than the original FW;- so I guess just choose the one you like best and live with it happily.  That is what I am planning to advise to myself.


----------



## FredA

4.07b3 seems livelier (more punch) than 3.93b2. Otherwise, they are similar. 

I like it better, but it's only after 5 minutes. The bass really stands outs. Seems like there is a noticeable gain in res.  So this could well be my new favorite.


----------



## ProLoL

rsbrsvp said:


> Interesting to note that we kind of all have a problem here.  The problem is we have to many options; all very very good ones.
> 
> If we feel that for some music or some moods we like "S" and some "P"- we just switch it in 5 seconds.   If we feel like up-sampling or NOS- just switch it on your dac in 5 seconds. The option to enjoy these alternatives is easily and quickly adjustable at a touch of a button.
> 
> ...



I'm glad Kingwa spreads us with gifts cause "best" is subjective for each of us.


----------



## FredA (Oct 8, 2020)

For me, Wes Montgomery is the most enjoyable jazz musician ever. Why, i can't point any specifics. Smooth, crisp, expressive, not showing off, just there to share highly musical thoughts with people, graced by a wonderful talent.

4.07b3/i2s/parallel/external is the best combination ever for Wes. That's it for me, no more fw flashing.


----------



## FredA

I would even call 4.07b3 the Wes Montgomery of firmwares, kudos to you Kingwa, i think you nailed it.


----------



## ProLoL (Oct 10, 2020)

Yea, switched back to 4.07b3 for today as this one and the 3.93b2 are my favorites.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I haven't tried 4.07b3 but 4.07b4 has got the performers very localized with strict boundaries, less lateral reach, but more depth and dynamics.  It can be so localized that sometimes the center image vocalist will sound like she's singing through a giant tube -- is this some DSP phuckery?  Such pronounced separation is the hallmark of a clinical sound, but this is emotional and musical, and none of that coldness from 4.07b1.  The volume at which performers used to jumble into confusion has just gone up.

You know the change is special when you're unexpectedly startled by a very familiar passage in a very familiar track.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 9, 2020)

4.03b3 is excellent.  More analogue, sweeter, less sterile than he 3.993 I was using.  Better soundstage and more 3d depth as well.  3.993 had fuller sound and better bass with a less rounded and more raw style crunchy detail retrieval.  3.993 is seemingly less colored and perhaps harsher but the analogue coloration of 4.03b3 is beautiful and very convincing. This is my initial opinion.  I need more time to evaluate.

4.03b3 sounds more more open and clearer with internal clock.  External has better bass and imaging as usual but at the cost of that open clarity..  My experience so far has me concluding that external clock is always better with all the 3. FW's and in all the 4. FW's both external and internal clocks have advantages over each other.

Another surprise is with all the FW's I have found my R7HE on 8x oversample provides more detail but in FW 4.07b3 I find NOS is more detailed while 8X is smoother.

Wow am I confused- but either way- this is a world class price no object transport- very very best I ever heard..


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 9, 2020)

Soundstage with 4.07b3 is by far the widest and deepest I ever heard on headphones.

In combination with my goodhertz canopener speaker emulator plug-in, the sound is extraordinary;- totally out of the head 3-d experience.


----------



## DACLadder

Kingwa's focus on clocks is paying off.  I like 3.93 b2 very much as I can hear great bass, accurate vocals, and even the highs were clearer/ more separation.

Just loaded 4.07 beta 4 and sounds good as well.  External clock, USB in, I2S out, serial mode.  DAC is the M7S.


----------



## myshark (Oct 10, 2020)

DACLadder said:


> Kingwa's focus on clocks is paying off.  I like 3.93 b2 very much as I can hear great bass, accurate vocals, and even the highs were clearer/ more separation.
> 
> Just loaded 4.07 beta 4 and sounds good as well.  External clock, USB in, I2S out, serial mode.  DAC is the M7S.


I agree on fw 4.07b4. its sounds the best overall to me. usb/external/parallel/i2s.
More lateral and front to back depth in soundstage. Laterally the sound was 2-3 ft to the side of the speakers which normally only about 1 ft or less. This i use the chieftains- sake in a jar (look for the stick).
The sound to the front normally about 2 ft, now 4-5 ft very close to my seating position. Use Sting- mad about you. ( left speaker ).
I also think the separation better. The bass was deep and tuneful.
Resolution about the same but better dynamics i.e. the low volume music heard clearer.
The next best is 3.93b2 and 4.07b3, they are good but 4.07b4 have small edge in my system and to my ears.
/shark


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Soundstage with 4.07b3 is by far the widest and deepest I ever heard on headphones.
> 
> In combination with my goodhertz canopener speaker emulator plug-in, the sound is extraordinary;- totally out of the head 3-d experience.


I agree. The 3d experience is excellent.


----------



## FredA

myshark said:


> I agree on fw 4.07b4. its sounds the best overall to me. usb/external/parallel/i2s.
> More lateral and front to back depth in soundstage. Laterally the sound was 2-3 ft to the side of the speakers which normally only about 1 ft or less. This i use the chieftains- sake in a jar (look for the stick).
> The sound to the front normally about 2 ft, now 4-5 ft very close to my seating position. Use Sting- mad about you. ( left speaker ).
> I also think the separation better. The bass was deep and tuneful.
> ...


Thanks to you, @Wynnytsky and @DACLadder. I will give it a try.


----------



## FredA

I just flashed 4.07b4.

First impressions are that the balance is similar to 4.07b3 but resolution is superior. However, there seems to be less depth and width in the soundstage. Still very smooth and enjoyable. Depending on priorities, it is as good a choise as 4.07b3 IMO. I would be inclined to say 4.07b3 is more for me.

These early impressions are with i2s/external/parallel. Thanks again to Kingwa to give us these choices.


----------



## FredA (Oct 10, 2020)

After a first couple of tracks, 4.07b4 is gowing on me. Soudstaging/imaging are better than i initially thought and it's cleaner than b3. I like it. Not as forgiving but not by much.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> After a first couple of tracks, 4.07b4 is gowing me. Soudstaging/imaging are better than i initially thought and it's cleaner than b3. I like it. Not as forgiving but not by much.



I can relate to your initial impression about the spread.  Each performer is in a box with less overlap, so separation is stellar, even at loud levels, yet the shorter reach of each performer makes for an overall smaller stage.  Overall things are still sounding more live than whatever preceded this.  It's a new sound for me that I'd happily spend months acclimating to.  At some point I'll get a DAC with a 10mhz input and I'll really hear what it was designed to do.


----------



## PLGA

Hi guys
Where is 4.07b3 to download it and try it?

I don't see it on Audio-gd web page?


----------



## FredA

The link to the rar file:

http://www.audio-gd.com/DP20firmwares.rar


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> I can relate to your initial impression about the spread.  Each performer is in a box with less overlap, so separation is stellar, even at loud levels, yet the shorter reach of each performer makes for an overall smaller stage.  Overall things are still sounding more live than whatever preceded this.  It's a new sound for me that I'd happily spend months acclimating to.  At some point I'll get a DAC with a 10mhz input and I'll really hear what it was designed to do.


It is very accurate while very musical. The level of life likeness is pretty amazing. Bass quality is remarkable.


----------



## mudhole

The device is the most wired one I ever used. Since my moded reference one has only i2s input so that I have to use both USB and spdif input on the Di 20, before only 3.32 make the spdif to i2s working which makes me upset.
On Thursday night, I tried the 4.07 b3 first,  spdif in i2s out  to reference 1still had no sound. Then I flashed the 3.93b2, everything works properly. I also impressed by the wide and deep soundstage, very detailed clean sound. Bass is solid with texture. I was so happy with it . Finally the Di 20 works full functioned with a satisfied sound. Today I flashed the 4.07b4, after several songs, I know I like 3.93 b2 better, then I flashed 3.93b2 back. ....... The USB  to i2s has no sound, but the spdif to i2s still have sound. I was scared,  flashed 4.07b4 USB works spdif no sound, back to 3.93b2 usb no sound spdif works...... Then I flashed 4.07b3 so strange, the USB and spdif both work ......  this makes me feel better but I still miss the 3.93b2


----------



## Jackula

I must be the odd one out because I still prefer the 4.07b1 with internal clock. The imaging is sharper and there is a bass bloat with b4 on my setup. I'll give it another go when I buy an external clock, as it sounds very much like a firmware that favours the external clock.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 11, 2020)

4.07b3= more analogue, sweet, round, musical, 3-D, huge soundstage,.
4.07b4= more resolution, better separation, fuller bass, more crunch, smaller soundstage, less analogue.
3.993= least musical, least analogue, most resolution, most transparent, full sounding, most raw sounding, perhaps could be described as sterile or harsh.

4.01b1 was thin sounding to me but was perhaps the best version so far with internal clock and had astonishing detail with internal clock..


In the next version of the DI20 hardware Kingwa needs to add a button to allow one to choose 3 or four FW's at the touch of a button.  I hope he reads these threads.


----------



## Jackula (Oct 11, 2020)

Listened to the 4.07b3 for awhile on parallel/internal clock, the bass is much better balanced than b4. The dynamics and attack is best of the lot, separation is better too but not as good as b1. Problem with both b3 and b4 is the sound is too smooth, which some may prefer but not me, I prefer the sound with all its nuances as though you were listening live. 4.07b1/parallel still the best overall sound on my setup with internal clock, spot on tonal balance, body and the most convincing transparency, detail, soundstage and imaging.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 11, 2020)

I agree that 4.07b3 and 4.07b4 are smoother than 4.07b1.  4.07b1 and 3.993 have best detail of all of them with least smoothing.

3.993 is better with external with better bigger deeper bass and better imaging and 4.07b1 better with internal and providing a more open style sound.  My issue with 4..07b1 is I find it a bit thin and I am psychologically pained that my $5,000 extremal clock is going to waste..

I could live with any of these.  

We need that button on the DI to allow multiple firmware options.


----------



## Jackula

rsbrsvp said:


> I agree that 4.07b3 and 4.07b4 are smoother than 4.07b1.  4.07b1 and 3.993 have best detail of all of them with least smoothing.
> 
> 3.993 is better with external with better bigger deeper bass and better imaging and 4.07b1 better with internal and providing a more open style sound.  My issue with 4..07b1 is I find it a bit thin and I am psychologically pained that my $5,000 extremal clock is going to waste..
> 
> I could live with any of these.  Kingwa- I need that button on the DI to allow multiple firmware options  PLEASE....



The "thinness" could be a number of things, it can also sound too thick depending on synergy. When I replaced my HE9 with the HE1, everything sounded too thick and quite congested. I had to change cables back to what used to sound "too thin" with my HE9 as pre. Maybe one day when I have an external clock my opinion will change (my Morion was sent back), but I am not moving from 4.07b1 in the mean time.


----------



## FredA

I think it should be possible to combine the sound of 4.07b1 with internal to the sound of b3 or b4 with external into the same new fw. Not sure about you suggestion @rsbrsvp .


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> The "thinness" could be a number of things, it can also sound too thick depending on synergy. When I replaced my HE9 with the HE1, everything sounded too thick and quite congested. I had to change cables back to what used to sound "too thin" with my HE9 as pre. Maybe one day when I have an external clock my opinion will change (my Morion was sent back), but I am not moving from 4.07b1 in the mean time.


What happened with the Morion, Jack?


----------



## Jackula

FredA said:


> What happened with the Morion, Jack?



It stopped working one day, Queen generously provided a return label so I didn't have to pay a cent returning it. Apparently it turned out to be the faulty power supply they sent me.

Afterwards I was reconsidering buying the Mutec Ref 10 or HE1 as my wife would only approve one purchase, so I consulted Kingwa and he said the latter will bring a bigger improvement, so now I have a HE1 and no external clock.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 11, 2020)

I just re-flashed my FW between 3.93b2, 4.07b1, 4.07b3, and 4.07b4.

I listed to a specific song on each FW and took note of the differences- which by the way were obvious.  Then I repeated this entire process a second time and third time and took note.

Everything was done using my Mutec external clock, parallel mode, usb in from my iso regen and i2s out.

First of all- I am now convinced I was wrong about the 3. FW versions along with the 4.07b1 having more detail.  4.07b1 does seem to have the most detail retrieval at first listen and does have a very nice soundstage and excellent separation.  However I now believe that 4.07b3 and 4.07b4 have either equal detail or very slightly less with a much nicer smoother more analogue tone IMHO; a kind of a honey glazing.  I think the more sterile and harsh tone of 3.93b2 and 4.07b1 give the initial impression that the resolution is superior, but after going through this process and comparing the FW's multiple times, I don't think I'm loosing much in the resolution department with 4.07b3 and 4.07b4 if any and it just sounds noticeably more pleasant to my ears.

4.07b4 is more focused and has fuller, more powerful sound while 4.07b3 has the same basic tonality (honey glazed) as 4.07b4 but with a wider soundstage- further back in room feel.

I could really see how these perspectives could change with different system factors.  Just to give an example of one such factor, I use i-tunes in my mac mini to play my music.  i-tunes provides a very non-colored colder style presentation and because of this I believe I appreciate the honey glaze of 4.07b3 and 4.07b4.  However if I switch to Audrivana which has that honey glaze built in, I can easily appreciate 4.07b1 more because no more honey is needed.

There is no right and wrong here.  Thanks to everyone for the fun conversation.....


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jackula said:


> Apparently it turned out to be the faulty power supply they sent me.



I never even tried Queen's switching supply.  I have the Morion on HDPlex's 2amp low noise tap and the uptone ether regen on HDPlex's 8amp tap (replacing the 4.8amp switching unit it came with).  It's the swiss army knife of LPSs.


----------



## nazhmd

FredA said:


> I agree. The 3d experience is excellent.


I also agree, “ In my setup” the 4.07b3 has the widest soundstage, best timbre, 3D soundscape and bass using USB/Parallel/I2S settings into my PS Audio DSD Sr DAC windom FW.


----------



## nazhmd

Forgot to mention I am also using the external Morion OCXO. Incredible realism. I am set, a BIG THANK YOU to Kingwa🙏🥂🎺


----------



## FredA

4.07b3 has meaty timbres. Excellent presence and soundstaging. Still my favorite.


----------



## nazhmd

FredA said:


> 4.07b3 has meaty timbres. Excellent presence and soundstaging. Still my favorite.


Yes Sir 👍were in the same page.


----------



## Wynnytsky (Oct 12, 2020)

I bounced back and forth between 4.07b3 and 4.07b4 today (forgetting to engage *external* clock).

b3 is sound stage centric and is the best yet at this familiar yet safe/conservative production.

b4 is new to my ears in the way that it spotlights individual performers.  I'm more engaged and it holds my attention like a good film.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 12, 2020)

b3 and b4 are clearly the best overall to my ears after multiple tests switching between many FW's and listening.  No other FW is in play any more.

b3 has the bigger soundstage and b4 is a bit more intimate and more front row.  Both have full bodied analogue sweetness which is addictive; resolution is not compromised.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 12, 2020)

Many have commented on the incredible 3D soundstage of 4.07b3.

I was wondering if anyone feels that the soundstage is not realistic?

The more I listen to it- as much as I love the super wide and deep soundstage, the more I detect something about it does not sound convincing;- perhaps slightly artificial..  I can't put my finger on just what the issue is.  Could just be I am not used to it yet.....

I am switching several times a day between b3 and b4 and every time I switch back to b3 from b4 I immediately detect that 3D depth- just many rows further back in the audience- but not sure it is realistic.  Could be a headphone issue which is not an issue with speakers.

b4 sounds more correct/believable and I also like the more powerful front row sound of it- but still not sure yet.

edit:   b4 has slightly better detail and separation than b3 as well- a half step less foggy and more clear in direct comparison.......


----------



## PLGA

Well, I haven't tried b4, but b3 is SO good for me, on parallel mode and I2S to My R8 DAC.

First, after installing b3, coming from b1, both on serial mode, I wasn't much impressed. I found both very similar, but then I tried parallel on b3 and WOW... I love it!

My music never sounded so 3D. I don't feel the soundstage is deeper or wider, just much better defined. I don't know how to descrive it exactly, it's much more real, less digital, better tone and the sound is more rounded on edges. More tridimensional, but not wider or deeper, more analog.

I find 3b incredible! Thank you Kingwa!!!!


----------



## FredA

I like both. B3 grabs your attention, is easier on ears, b4 is a little less musical but clearer, more auccurate. It’s a matter of tastes and mood. I would be happy with either.  I don’t find anything artficial with soundstaging. Bass is not as defined with b3 but is still well resolved. All with i2s/external/parallel.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> I like both. B3 grabs your attention, is easier on ears, b4 is a little less musical but clearer, more auccurate. It’s a matter of tastes and mood. I would be happy with either.  I don’t find anything artficial with soundstaging. Bass is not as defined with b3 but is still well resolved. All with i2s/external/parallel.



yup B3 is easier on the ears and more musical.  It makes me appreciate the back drop, stage, tone, _the sum of the parts_
B4 has stronger delineation and dynamics, making it less homogenous, more critical of music+chain, and less forgiving

B3 allows my attention to drift and B4 holds it


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 12, 2020)

agreed.  b4 is more dynamic, resolved and engaging; -front row.  b3 is a bit more polite; further back..

both are great...... but I am in the mood lately to be engaged and challenged, not to chill out-so b4 it is..


----------



## rsbrsvp

By the way- I listen to modern music only; rock, disco, dance, etc....  I think b4 just fits these genres better.

Perhaps, classical, jazz, new age and these type of genres may fit the more expansive and more relaxed nature of b3???


----------



## Wynnytsky

rsbrsvp said:


> Perhaps, classical, jazz, new age and these type of genres may fit the more expansive and more relaxed nature of b3???



You know there's room for more transparency (speed, freq-resp, phase, etc) when the chain can only swing certain genres.
But transparency is double edged because it brings more attention to both the strengths and weaknesses.

Perhaps we shouldn't rush to find a middle ground between these firmwares.  Let them evolve at their own pace and eventually they'll converge, as do high end tube and solid state electronics when you get to 5 figure pricing.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 13, 2020)

I got into audio-gd equipment because I wanted to change from the classic ultra smooth, ultra saturated sound I was used to to the highest fidelity possible.

I want to hear everything on that recording; the good and the bad with full unrestricted dynamic punch.  Well- I got it thanks to Kingwa's genius and advice from many of you at head-fi.

For maximum uncompromised fidelity b4 delivers- and with a lovely analogue tone as well.   I am not willing to give up on any portion of this immense pleasure for more soundstage; it would be to me like handicapping my Ferrari's full acceleration boost to make it smoother.

I am however looking forward to the evolution of these FW's and I certainly respect everyone's viewpoint on b3. It is to me #2 in the FW list.


----------



## Oepsie

rsbrsvp said:


> I got into audio-gd equipment because I wanted to change from the classic ultra smooth, ultra saturated sound I was used to to the highest fidelity possible.
> 
> I want to hear everything on that recording; the good and the bad with full unrestricted dynamic punch.  Well- I got it thanks to Kingwa's genius and advice from many of you at head-fi.
> 
> ...


This is interesting because I actually got into my DI-20 because of a totally different experience: The way it made my audio setup sound real/natural  - it gave a sense of realism to my setup that I had NEVER heard before at home and at the same time, it was not at the expense of prat, punch, rhythm or other parameters. Other converters gave compromises to various sound characteristics - but the DI-20 stepped up everything and has provided so much more to my digital frontend 

But very cool that we can extract different qualities from the same product(s)!!

Will enjoy experimenting with different FW - currently, I'm on 3.9 as this to me provides the best sound qualities in aspects of real/natural balance in my setup. But have not tried the latest version - will do that when my OCXO clock arrives, hopefully soon


----------



## newabc

I think, in the future, Kingwa may add dual firmware chips to the DI-20 board or allow a firmware switching scheme, like the dual CMOS design of computer motherboards.


----------



## smodtactical

Damn it my di20he just stopped playing files, when I hit play it just doesn't start the file on foobar, wasapi, amanero.

I tried the following:

1. restart pc
2. disconnect and reconnect usb to another port
3. reboot di20he 2x
4. clean uninstall and reinstall of amanero 1.0.62 drivers
5. switch from usb to coax and back on di20he

Note if I bypass DI20HE and play directly from denafrips terminator dac the music plays without any problems.


----------



## smodtactical

Ok what the hell it just randomly started working.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@smodtactical in windows I like to disable my adapter entirely (ie: USB interface) so there's no chance my playback software and windows will fight over an exclusive lock.  Being disabled in windows doesn't block the ASIO driver.  Of course you'll need to turn it back on whenever you want to listen to a non-ASIO client (ex: chrome).


----------



## Pappas3278

Audio-gd website has the "finalized" FWs!!
Not much description on which ones they represent.  Who can decipher?


----------



## FredA (Oct 14, 2020)

Pappas3278 said:


> Audio-gd website has the "finalized" FWs!!
> Not much description on which ones they represent.  Who can decipher?


Knowing Kingwa and the fact he monitors this thread, i would assume 4.07b3 is v4.075 with bug fixes and 4.07b4 is v4.076 also with bug fixes, but i could be wrong. I would not expect any change with the sound. These would be the new shipping versions. One smooth, one accurate. Great job, Kingwa, my friend! These fws have reached a very good level of sound quality with the ext. clock and also are bug-free or close.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Thanks Kingwa.   EXCELLENT......


----------



## Jackula

FredA said:


> Knowing Kingwa and the fact he monitors this thread, i would assume 4.07b3 is v4.075 with bug fixes and 4.07b4 is v4.076 also with bug fixes, but i could be wrong. I would not expect any change with the sound. These would be the new shipping versions. One smooth, one accurate. Great job, Kingwa, my friend! These fws have reached a very good level of sound quality with the ext. clock and also are bug-free or close.



At least one of them will be based off of 4.07b1, as both of us agreed it was the more correct sounding firmware with our almost identical setup. He would keep one firmware accurate based on b1 and one firmware smooth based on either b3 or b4. I can't wait to try them out tonight, I just wish he labelled them.


----------



## marcelnl (Oct 14, 2020)

Hi folks,  I am wondering about getting a DI20 ever since I needed to get a DDC because I killed the USB input on my Metrum Amethyst...been reading this monster thread, but only got to page 75 or so yet...

My current setup is a headless NUC(fed by LPS) with SSD running Daphile (Linux based), PCIe JCat USB card on a M2 riser with an Akiko LPS feeding a Singxer SU1 (Magnafied version) to the Metrum via SPDIF. (this setup sounds better (a lot) than the standard Metrum USB input. Adding that I only need NOS, no DSD etc

I am wondering if anyone can say something worthwhile about the following options:

-Get a DI20 and external clock (on LPS) feeding the Metrum through I2S IF that is possible at all (Metrum uses RJ45 for I2S, AudioGd uses LVDS), if so I'm thinking that using an LPS and external clock on LPS could well mean I can make do with the bare bones DI20 (not HE), total spent: 600 plus an LPS for DI20 (not sure what voltage it needs, may have an LPS/Isolation transformer for it already), the external clock (350?euro) and an LPS for the external clock; total:1800??euro
-Get a Pink Faun I2S PCIe bridge (they make custom versions to accomodate Metrum I2S) fed by the Akiko LPS straight into the Metrum via I2S, getting clock upgrades for the Pink Faun...likely the best (meaning 1550euro)


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> Hi folks,  I am wondering about getting a DI20 ever since I needed to get a DDC because I killed the USB input on my Metrum Amethyst...been reading this monster thread, but only got to page 75 or so yet...
> 
> My current setup is a headless NUC(fed by LPS) with SSD running Daphile (Linux based), PCIe JCat USB card on a M2 riser with an Akiko LPS feeding a Singxer SU1 (Magnafied version) to the Metrum via SPDIF. (this setup sounds better (a lot) than the standard Metrum USB input. Adding that I only need NOS, no DSD etc
> 
> ...


The di20 has an excellent lps built-in and no dc input anyway. A technician would perhaps be able to convert your rj45 input to hdmi, audio-gd sells a kit. Otherwise the spdif outputs are excellent on the di20.   The budget external clock to get is a Morion mv89a from this seller:

https://www.ebay.com/usr/queen*s_land?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

It will cost you less than 400 usd including a  very decent lps.


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> At least one of them will be based off of 4.07b1, as both of us agreed it was the more correct sounding firmware with our almost identical setup. He would keep one firmware accurate based on b1 and one firmware smooth based on either b3 or b4. I can't wait to try them out tonight, I just wish he labelled them.


Maybe Kingwa has used the timing of b1 for the internal and with the external, it's that of b3 and b4. This would be the best poosible thing to do. If possible.


----------



## marcelnl

FredA said:


> The di20 has an excellent lps built-in and no dc input anyway. A technician would perhaps be able to convert your rj45 input to hdmi, audio-gd sells a kit. Otherwise the spdif outputs are excellent on the di20.   The budget external clock to get is a Morion mv89a from this seller:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/usr/queen*s_land?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
> 
> It will cost you less than 400 usd including a  very decent lps.


I'm afraid that converting to HDMI I2S needs some more tinkering than a generic add on board, I have spoken with the Metrum developer about the differences.

Not sure I get what you mean, the Di20 is 600 the Di20HE is 1100, if the Morion clock with an LPS is 400 the total is around 1000 to 1500 or am I missing something?


----------



## FredA

I





marcelnl said:


> I'm afraid that converting to HDMI I2S needs some more tinkering than a generic add on board, I have spoken with the Metrum developer about the differences.
> 
> Not sure I get what you mean, the Di20 is 600 the Di20HE is 1100, if the Morion clock with an LPS is 400 the total is around 1000 to 1500 or am I missing something?



I meant just the clock and lps. The di20 is around 600 indeed. So the total is 1000 with the regular di20. 

If you have a usb board working on 3.3v inside your dac, it can normally be replaced by the hdmi module. Some drilling will be likely be needed and the proper i2s wires matching.


----------



## PLGA

Hi guys
Has anyone tried the new firmwares (non beta versions)?

Should they be the same in sound quality as the beta versions?


----------



## FredA

I wrote to Kingwa to ask about them. From the description, these are the betas with bug fixes. Which betas is the question.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> I wrote to Kingwa to ask about them. From the description, these are the betas with bug fixes. Which betas is the question.



I started with DP-20_V4.076.jic and that's very much AGD's house sound.  Lot's a decay at the expense of depth.  Not ideal for my largely untreated room.

I just put in DP-20_V4.075.jic and this bears more of the qualities I heard in B4, and this time the performers are not as boxed in -- Qingwa gave them more leg room.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 14, 2020)

76 and 75 do not sound like 4.07b1 at all to my ears.  They are smoother versions.


----------



## Wynnytsky

75 had me in a chair for over 3 hours, and most of it was Burt Bacharach!
Then Casino Royale, Koln Concert, Buckethead, Artaxerxes No 28, Jazz@PawnShop HighLife

This weekend I'll swap out my eight 6550s for KT120s and hear where that takes me


----------



## peppyjoe

Tried for first time after being on b1 since quite few months. 075 certainly resembles b1 to me and imaging even is more solid than b1. Mids are certainly better in 075. Now i realise how much thinner b1 was.  076 seems smoother to me analogish kind.


----------



## peppyjoe

Wow 075 seem to throw music all around the room, soundstage is very different from what i heard ever. Hmm maybe thats why it could be 'unnatural'. Bass is better mids are better and treble is right there. I think it could be best version yet from kingwa.


----------



## Jackula (Oct 15, 2020)

Kingwa told me that 76 is based on the b1 and he's right. Parallel/internal sounds identical between the two firmwares. I believe the main difference in sound is for those with an external clock.

Yep confirmed. 75 reminds me more of the smoother b3 with internal clock. Flashed back to 76 now, don't think anything can top this yet when it comes to correctness.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 15, 2020)

to me- 75 and 76 are both fantastic.  IMHO 75 is more musical (perhaps the most musical and smooth version yet) with a bit bigger of a soundstage and 76 has more detail but still very very musical.  76 and 75 with external clock does not sound to my ears anything like b1-- much more meaty.   I need to experiment more.  Initial impression leaning towards 76 but this could change easily.  75 is so musical I would say it almost is like it has a soul.

I like both..........


----------



## rsbrsvp

Wow.  75 and 76 are the best versions yet IMHO.  They do not sound like b3 and b4 with bug fixes to me.  They are more musical, sweeter, more natural than any I have heard. Resolution is still excellent- but stresses the whole rather than hyper focus on micro plankton.

JUST BEAUTIFUL-- is the best way to describe them.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 15, 2020)

For those with a audio-gd dac- give a try to "t" mode instead of "r" mode with FW 75 or 76 on the DI.  I'm not saying it is better but it is a beautiful musical experience. The sound is so so lush- like fine chocolate.

This mix really is a combination of the rich saturated musical sound I was used with my previous Reimyo DAP999EX (perhaps the most musical piece of equipment I ever owned) but with much superior resolution, transparency, separation, and dynamics which audio-gd offers.  Kind of the best of both worlds.


----------



## FredA (Oct 15, 2020)

So i got an answer from Kingwa:

The 4.075 is based on the 4.07beta3,
The 4.076 is based on the 4.07beta4.
A fix to the coaxial output producing noise when changing settings (clock selection, presumably)  was added to both. 

So from this, some further tuning may have been done to these betas.

I would assume b1 was used as a base for the internal clock timing.


----------



## rsbrsvp

This was my initial impression.  b3 and 75 with the more 3D smooth sound and b4 along with 76 more forward, dynamic, clear.

But both 75 and 76 are noticably more honey glazed than their predecessors- gorgeous tonality..


----------



## PLGA

rsbrsvp said:


> For those with a audio-gd dac- give a try to "t" mode instead of "r" mode with FW 75 or 76 on the DI.



What do you mean with "t" instead or "r' on the DI-20?

Can't wait to try 75 as I liked very much b3!


----------



## rsbrsvp

PLGA said:


> What do you mean with "t" instead or "r' on the DI-20?




In my R-7HE dac I can choose "T" or "R" mode.  It is not an option in the DI..


----------



## PLGA

rsbrsvp said:


> In my R-7HE dac I can choose "T" or "R" mode.  It is not an option in the DI..



I don't recall seeing those modes on the R8 DAC. I will check it out thanks


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> I don't recall seeing those modes on the R8 DAC. I will check it out thanks


He is referring to the TDA sim mode. You have it. Check this:

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R8/R8EN_Use.htm


----------



## FredA

4.075 seems great with both the internal and external clock so far!


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> He is referring to the TDA sim mode. You have it. Check this:
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R8/R8EN_Use.htm



"T" mode is probably not going to be the first option for most listeners with most listening, but it does sound super saturated (wet) with these new DI FW's and is a nice once in a while change-up.


----------



## PLGA

rsbrsvp said:


> "T" mode is probably not going to be the first option for most listeners with most listening, but it does sound super saturated (wet) with these new DI FW's and is a nice once in a while change-up.



Thank you and Fred for the answer.

I believe you are talking about the second display on the front panel of the R8, am I right?

If so, I quote Audio-gd website:

"*The 2nd display element : (Was print Pll: Simulate SAA7220 +TDA1541A sound) :
*Active (1) : Simulate SAA7220 +TDA1541A, digital attenuation low to -55DB, was -130DB. Bitwide low to 16bit , was 24 bit. While active this function, I are advice setting to OS2 or OS4 mode. But infact, this function can working with any setting mode."

What does it mean?  I'm not a digital expert and it sounds like chinese to me


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Thank you and Fred for the answer.
> 
> I believe you are talking about the second display on the front panel of the R8, am I right?
> 
> ...


No.problem.
It just means all the parameters are set to emulate a tda1541 r2r chip. Vintage stuff.  In particular, the audio signal is played with only 16 bits. I tried it a month ago, i liked it.


----------



## anroj

rsbrsvp said:


> In my R-7HE dac I can choose "T" or "R" mode.  It is not an option in the DI..


Are you using the DI-20 with an external clock into your R7HE? I ordered an R7HE and it arrives today - so excited! Since the R7HE has direct 10MHz clock input, I asked Kingwa if it was better to use my external clock directly into the R7HE, or into the DI-20, and then into the R7HE. He told me to try both to decide. Just trying to get some impressions on what difference the new firmware versions make with the DI-20 in the mix.


----------



## rsbrsvp

anroj said:


> Are you using the DI-20 with an external clock into your R7HE? I ordered an R7HE and it arrives today - so excited! Since the R7HE has direct 10MHz clock input, I asked Kingwa if it was better to use my external clock directly into the R7HE, or into the DI-20, and then into the R7HE. He told me to try both to decide. Just trying to get some impressions on what difference the new firmware versions make with the DI-20 in the mix.



I do have an external clock which is being used for the DI-20HE and R7-HE.  In the earlier firmware versions of the DI I felt that the external clock was definitely reveling more detail than the internal clocks.  In more recent DI firmware versions I feel that the resolution gap has essential been closed between internal and external clocks.  The external clock still does provide a fuller sound across the frequency spectrum and noticeably better bass along with superior imaging than the internal clocks, but the internal clocks seem to provide a more open airy sound IMHO.  Using the external clock only on the DI or only on the R-7 essentially splits the difference.  Don't spend to much money on an external clock as IMHO the diminishing returns are high.

I prefer the external clock to the internal on all firmware versions of DI with the exception of 4.07b1 where it a very close call.


----------



## anroj

rsbrsvp said:


> I do have an external clock which is being used for the DI-20HE and R7-HE.  In the earlier firmware versions of the DI I felt that the external clock was definitely reveling more detail than the internal clocks.  In more recent DI firmware versions I feel that the resolution gap has essential been closed between internal and external clocks.  The external clock still does provide a fuller sound across the frequency spectrum and noticeably better bass along with superior imaging than the internal clocks, but the internal clocks seem to provide a more open airy sound IMHO.  Using the external clock only on the DI or only on the R-7 essentially splits the difference.  Don't spend to much money on an external clock as IMHO the diminishing returns are high.
> 
> I prefer the external clock to the internal on all firmware versions of DI with the exception of 4.07b1 where it a very close call.


Thank you for this response. I already have a Teac CG-10M that I'm using with my R8, and I was going to use that with the R7HE as well. I'm not on 4.07b1 yet as I was waiting on the R7 to arrive and settle in before I made any changes to the DI-20.


----------



## Wynnytsky

anroj said:


> Thank you for this response. I already have a Teac CG-10M that I'm using with my R8


R8 doesn't have a 10mhz input



anroj said:


> He told me to try both to decide


when he said _both_ he meant for you to run two BNC cables [in parallel] out of the Teac -- one into the DI20 and the other into the R7HE
you should be scrambling for another BNC right about now

BTW you'll have 2 more unused outputs on that Teac.  You can entertain sending one of them into an Uptone Ether Regen.


----------



## anroj

Wynnytsky said:


> R8 doesn't have a 10mhz input
> 
> I was running the CG-10M into the DI-20, then DI-20 to the R8.
> 
> ...


I've got to slow the spending down a bit before looking at any more purchases. I have seen Austinpop's review on Audiophilestyle and the ER is something I have considered. It looks like I will have the ability to connect my ultraRendu to the Etherregen.


----------



## myshark

rsbrsvp said:


> I do have an external clock which is being used for the DI-20HE and R7-HE.  In the earlier firmware versions of the DI I felt that the external clock was definitely reveling more detail than the internal clocks.  In more recent DI firmware versions I feel that the resolution gap has essential been closed between internal and external clocks.  The external clock still does provide a fuller sound across the frequency spectrum and noticeably better bass along with superior imaging than the internal clocks, but the internal clocks seem to provide a more open airy sound IMHO.  Using the external clock only on the DI or only on the R-7 essentially splits the difference.  Don't spend to much money on an external clock as IMHO the diminishing returns are high.
> 
> I prefer the external clock to the internal on all firmware versions of DI with the exception of 4.07b1 where it a very close call.


Hi, i am wondering is it better to use the external clock for both di20 and r7? Or is it must be mutually exclusive?
Thanks.


----------



## PLGA

anroj said:


> I've got to slow the spending down a bit before looking at any more purchases. I have seen Austinpop's review on Audiophilestyle and the ER is something I have considered. It looks like I will have the ability to connect my ultraRendu to the Etherregen.



The Etherregen and an Ubiquity Router are VERY good upgrades. Totally recomended.

If You buy the ER ask for a 50 ohm external clock input (otherwise it comes with 75 ohm from factory) to match the impedance of Audio-gd clock inputs. I didnt know that and now my ER has a different impedance and I need two different clocks if I want to use master clocks.


----------



## PLGA

By the way, I installed 75 firmware and, eventhough I still have to listen more time, I don't find it pretty different to b3.


----------



## anroj

anroj said:


> I've got to slow the spending down a bit before looking at any more purchases. I have seen Austinpop's review on Audiophilestyle and the ER is something I have considered. It looks like I will have the ability to connect my ultraRendu to the Etherregen.





PLGA said:


> The Etherregen and an Ubiquity Router are VERY good upgrades. Totally recomended.
> 
> If You buy the ER ask for a 50 ohm external clock input (otherwise it comes with 75 ohm from factory) to match the impedance of Audio-gd clock inputs. I didnt know that and now my ER has a different impedance and I need two different clocks if I want to use master clocks.


Thanks for the advice.


----------



## FredA

myshark said:


> Hi, i am wondering is it better to use the external clock for both di20 and r7? Or is it must be mutually exclusive?
> Thanks.


On both is best, using two outputs of the same clock.


----------



## Mix80

PLGA said:


> I need two different clocks if I want to use master clocks.


1. This should help
2. This should help


----------



## FredA (Oct 15, 2020)

@Wynnystky I had put back the intona in my set up, hoping it would cure a glitch i have every 2 days. It did indeed. But it caused a degradation in sound quality, most noticeable with 192k. So i took it out but still had issues. I then decided to replace my 2-trunk usb cable by the ebay silver cable which was used to go into the intona. Now, the playback issues (congestion)  are cured. I got the most natural mids and highs. Lows are less present, but music flows freely. I think i have a usb connector issue, either on the cable, on the usbridge or the di20he. Right now, all is fine using 4.075. Much more analog. Very credible imaging/soundstaging. Except popping noises once in a while. Perhaps 4.075 is not as stable as 4.07b3. Here comes the bass again, it now is more slammy. Perhaps.my modded morion is having issues or its psu.


----------



## FredA

Now popping noises are gone and bass is back. It's the silver cable getting polarized again (as soon you move a cable significantly, it will depolarize, meaning the dielectric layer, but it will recover after a while). The sound is now perfect. So analog and accurate. Best sound ever i think.


----------



## myshark

FredA said:


> Now popping noises are gone and bass is back. It's the silver cable getting polarized again (as soon you move a cable significantly, it will depolarize, meaning the dielectric layer, but it will recover after a while). The sound is now perfect. So analog and accurate. Best sound ever i think.


What to do? Every now and then take out the cable? Or never take out the cable?
Thanks.


----------



## FredA (Oct 16, 2020)

A cable needs to stay still to settle. Some cables are less prone to this effect. However,  i could also have a connector issue.


----------



## Wynnytsky

anroj said:


> Got it and I am needing to get another BNC to do the side-by-side comparison.


Did the R7HE arrive?  What DAC are you coming from?  If you only have one BNC then run it into the DAC where I'm told it makes a bigger diff.  I presume you can toggle internal/external clock on the R7's front panel just like we do with the DI20, so when you get the 2nd BNC you'll quickly be able to compare the 4 possible clock modes w/o turning anything off or pulling wires.



FredA said:


> Perhaps 4.075 is not as stable as 4.07b3



I have yet to see a di20 firmware trip on i2s, but I've only had that one listening session with 4.075.  One thing I've learned though is do not turn off the DI20 while the DAC is on the i2s input -- it's not gonna damage anything but I'll get a high pitched squeal.  Same thing happened with the Singxer SU1, so that's a DAC thing.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 16, 2020)

4.075 makes the DI the most musical and analogue transport I ever heard- by far.
4.076 makes the DI the second most musical transport I ever heard with more micro detail than 4.075.

The DI is a STUNNING transport.......


----------



## marcelnl (Oct 16, 2020)

FredA said:


> Now popping noises are gone and bass is back. It's the silver cable getting polarized again (as soon you move a cable significantly, it will depolarize, meaning the dielectric layer, but it will recover after a while). The sound is now perfect. So analog and accurate. Best sound ever i think.


are you sure you are looking at THAT much capacitance in a cable? IMO a cable that suffers from charge / discharge effects has no place in audio. My vote is a cold solder joint )try avoid solder alltogether, many brands now have good screw contacts' or a connector issue.
Long ago, during our early days of creating interlinks as paret of our research we listened to a bare wire, cut it and joined it by twisting and compared against a solder joint...I avoid solder joints ever since (where possible), best alternatiove is a twist and then solder but with cable connectors usually all you can do is use a puddle of solder as glue..


----------



## FredA (Oct 16, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> are you sure you are looking at THAT much capacitance in a cable? IMO a cable that suffers from charge / discharge effects has no place in audio. My vote is a cold solder joint )try avoid solder alltogether, many brands now have good screw contacts' or a connector issue.
> Long ago, during our early days of creating interlinks as paret of our research we listened to a bare wire, cut it and joined it by twisting and compared against a solder joint...I avoid solder joints ever since (where possible), best alternatiove is a twist and then solder but with cable connectors usually all you can do is use a puddle of solder as glue..


It could be a solder joint. Possibly in the usbridge. If so, it will be an easy fix. If in the di20he, should be able to take care of it also. No problem. You are right about solder joints. But when using good silver solder, it minimize the issue. Also, the first 10-20 hours with a fresh joint are no good. After that, they are not an issue really IMO. Otherwise, count the number of joints in a r7he, it would be disastrous ....


----------



## marcelnl (Oct 16, 2020)

yeah with some age they get better, it´s not that they are disastrous but since I know what they do I try to avoid them where I can, especially in the signal path! Think of it like this; if the device sounds as good as it does, figure how it could sound with less solder joints.


----------



## Thenewguy007

How can you tell what firmware you have? I see nothing in the manual to show your firmware.


----------



## anroj

Wynnytsky said:


> Did the R7HE arrive?  What DAC are you coming from?  If you only have one BNC then run it into the DAC where I'm told it makes a bigger diff.  I presume you can toggle internal/external clock on the R7's front panel just like we do with the DI20, so when you get the 2nd BNC you'll quickly be able to compare the 4 possible clock modes w/o turning anything off or pulling wires.
> 
> The R7HE arrived yesterday afternoon and I got everything connected and had a chance to sit down for a short, informal listen. It is a beast of a DAC! I'm coming from an R8. I plan to pick up a BNC cable this weekend to do the A-B comparison between running the clock into the DI-20 and directly into the R7HE.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wynnytsky

me jealous



anroj said:


> I plan to pick up a BNC cable this weekend to do the A-B comparison between running the clock into the DI-20 and directly into the R7HE.


expect something like this A<B<C<D, and (C-A) > 2*(B-A)
A - internal only
B - external on DI20
C - external on R7HE
D - external on both


----------



## anroj

Wynnytsky said:


> me jealous
> 
> 
> expect something like this A<B<C<D, and (C-A) > 2*(B-A)
> ...


Thank you. Hopefully, I'll be able to give the evaluation process a go starting this weekend.


----------



## Jackula

Wynnytsky said:


> me jealous
> 
> 
> expect something like this A<B<C<D, and (C-A) > 2*(B-A)
> ...



For me it was more (D-A) > 2*(B-A). However (HE1 - HE9) > (D-A)^2.


----------



## FredA

Jackula said:


> For me it was more (D-A) > 2*(B-A). However (HE1 - HE9) > (D-A)^2.


Don't tell me that Jack, i love my he9. I love the 4.075 fw with headphones, just awesome. 

For me, the biggest recent upgrade was realizing the usb cable i was using  had a connector that got a little loose. Inserting another very good cable brought back the ultimately analog character of the di20he. 

For me, it's the di20he's best selling argument. For those who never got used to digital, take note.  At the top of the hiearchy, the best digital setup likeky beats the best turntables these days. As far as sounding analog, we are really so close to an actual analog source. Can't imagine what the 10M input on the dac will bring. 

My setup is so good, i almost forget i live under a dictatorship.


----------



## anroj

Jackula said:


> For me it was more (D-A) > 2*(B-A). However (HE1 - HE9) > (D-A)^2.


I'm anxious to get started with the testing. Thanks for sharing this information.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> My setup is so good, i almost forget i live under a dictatorship.



The oligarchy would like me to believe I live under a dictatorship so said dictator will be their scapegoat.  They also discovered the best "dictators" have prior experience in acting.

And the way I feel, a population that can't see through the uniparty scam aren't worth saving.  COVID21 - let's make this planet great again!


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> The oligarchy would like me to believe I live under a dictatorship so said dictator will be their scapegoat.  They also discovered the best "dictators" have prior experience in acting.
> 
> And the way I feel, a population that can't see through the uniparty scam aren't worth saving.  COVID21 - let's make this planet great again!


It's not the right thread, but it became very obvious it is a scam and that it must go on for as long as needed. Like a snow storm that does not care which season we are in and that will not run out of gas after one or 2 days.


----------



## FredA

Again my setup with 4.075 is just wonderful. Always i2s/external/parallel.

Analog sound, imaging, soundstaging, macrodynamics, microdynamics, timbres, resolution, extension.... All checked. The sum of all this is soul to soul connection to the performers. It's a musical immersion.

Art exists to remind us that something greater then this world exists. As artists are elevating their mind and souls, they show us the way.


----------



## FredA (Oct 16, 2020)

I realized i was on the internal. Just switched to external. Different but not necessarily so much better. Again better bass extension and a more 3d sound. Mids are not as present. Not having the external with the di20he is not a big compromise with the latest fws. If at all. At least with old recordings with which a boost in mids is welcome.


----------



## Toni-Mang

I tested V4.076, and i am sure, that this is the best setup for me.
I don´t know, what happened on the dsp side, but imho the soundstage is almost artificially huge and has less attack and a much better decay and micro details are pushed, i.e. echo...cool!. 
Yes, it sounds even more analogue with the R8 in Nos, and i like the sound very much, because it is pinpoint at the same time.
...but if this already beats vinyl regarding imaging...mmmhhhh...maybe the R7HE or a May will go a step further...


----------



## blackpepperjam (Oct 17, 2020)

Hi guys,

I have tried v4.075 and v4.076, but i do not get the experience you seem to get.
3d soundstage with pinpoint location... nope, instead boomy decays that make recording with ambient/room information pretty much unlistenable. Like a foggy soundscape where here and there instruments coming through. Which also means, micro details are not as defined as they should be etc.

I have:
Cisco Switch > optical LAN > Ether Regen > Aries Femto > USB > DI20HE > I2S > HE7 2020 > ACSS > HE9 > HD800, HE6, K812 or Adam A7x

All audio stuff has its own power line/phase. Except of room lights with dimmers. But when listening, lights are turned off. Or are the dimmers doing harm, even not in use?

Any ideas what the problem might be?

cheers,
Daniel


----------



## FredA

blackpepperjam said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have tried v4.075 and v4.076, but i do not get the experience you seem to get.
> 3d soundstage with pinpoint location... nope, instead boomy decays that make recording with ambient/room information pretty much unlistenable. Like a foggy soundscape where here and there instruments coming through. Which also means, micro details are not as defined as they should be etc.
> ...


I don't know. Dimmers can be noisy indeed. Try another usb cable (wild guess). Or to turn off the lights completely.


----------



## blackpepperjam

FredA said:


> I don't know. Dimmers can be noisy indeed. Try another usb cable (wild guess). Or to turn off the lights completely.


Hi Fred,

the lights are turned off when I am listening. I am using 2 USB cables. One of them is an after-market cable that beats the Audioquest Diamond USB. At the moment, the Diamond is in use (just to be sure). I have tried 2 different HDMI I2s cable, the Moshou 8k and the BlueJeans FE, but it doesnt solve the issue.
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07JF3KWTL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have tried the AES out of the DI20HE as well with a very high quality cable... without luck.

regards,
Daniel


----------



## FredA

Is burn-in done with all your gears? Did you try 4.07b3? If so, was it good with imaging?


----------



## Wynnytsky

blackpepperjam said:


> boomy decays that make recording with ambient/room information pretty much unlistenable. Like a foggy soundscape where here and there instruments coming through


that could be 4.076 + really discerning ears.



Toni-Mang said:


> but imho the soundstage is almost artificially huge and has less attack and a much better decay and micro details are pushed, i.e. echo...cool!.


And as cool as those elements may be, those are the first things that will drive you away from this firmware as they will show up in every song you listen to - no escape!  It's even worse in speaker-fi because our walls allow notes to live longer than they do in the recording.


----------



## FredA (Oct 17, 2020)

@blackpepperjam I am with the monoprice m570 (ridiculously good headphones for the money, they trounce the he560s with my main setup). Listening to Frisell East/west. Imaging is super, decays, details. Depth. Verify that all your power cable are well inserted.

Why 2 usb cables?


----------



## FredA (Oct 17, 2020)

@blackpepperjam

With a heaphone setup, acheiving the perfect sound is very tricky. Headphone are so different from one another, i'd say it is not possible to have an optimal setup for all headphone sets. For instance, the latest fws gave  nice improvments with the m570s. The ones before were not as good  while performing well with speakers. With headphones, details are put forward and imaging is different.

I find 4.075 just wonderfull with the m570s, as was 4.07b3. What characterize these is their well developped mid range. Also a relatively present upper range. Very present highs but smooth highs. They are a steal. And a great match with audio-gd.

They need 300h of burn-in, for the bass to fully develop, and after that, frankly, i shake my head and laugh everytime put them on. Like now. 
Great balance and res, big smile on my face.


----------



## FredA

While i have the headphones on,  it's interesting to swap between the internal and external clock. 

Tonality is again better with the internal, with a bit of a fuller midrange. But the soundstage/imaging are obviously not as 3D. The internal is bit more relaxed and musical. But it sounds 2D, like everything is at the same depth. It is so obvious with headphones.


----------



## PLGA

blackpepperjam said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have tried v4.075 and v4.076, but i do not get the experience you seem to get.
> 3d soundstage with pinpoint location... nope, instead boomy decays that make recording with ambient/room information pretty much unlistenable. Like a foggy soundscape where here and there instruments coming through. Which also means, micro details are not as defined as they should be etc.
> ...



Hi Daniel
You have top notch Audio-gd and other gear. It's hard to believe you are not getting the best sound possible.

How is your experience with other firmwares on the DI-20HE? How was the sound?

I have a similar digital chain as you, but with lower quality and my system never sounded as good as now.


----------



## marcelnl

An overly 3d soundstage often is artificial )npt saying this one is but giving caution', try pinpoint instruments in a live session. In my experience one needs to be very sceptical when 3d imaging is described as holgraphic etc, usually dynamics are lacking, which often is a giveaway to investigate phase behaviour over the whole bandwidth. GREAT to see that the developer puts so much effort in FW updates though, that is rare!

trionor is growing...the framework stands, mono as concept so MacGyvering a lot...but still, it should give a good insight in its capabilities tomorrow or tonight.


----------



## marcelnl

Frisell ROCKS, most of his recordings are top notch!


----------



## FredA (Oct 18, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> Frisell ROCKS, most of his recordings are top notch!


I would not say 4.075  is overly 3D. Le me explain. Having instruments as distinctly (not precisely) located as possible given the recording is a valid goal. I feel that the issue you describe is when a specific audio band is enhanced (some cables do this) and this makes imaging pin point. That is what i call artificial imaging. On the other hand, a better rendition of depth is not artificial IMO. It's in the recording, and sometimes it gets lost through the audio chain, most often at the source.


----------



## FredA

Now listening to Chet Baker/Paul Desmond Together. Not a spectacular album. But it's very inspired, rythhmic, masterfully played, it has fantastic solos. Desmond and Baker are great, but also the guy on keyboards is excellent throughout. At some point he makes a fast solo that i won't be tired of hearing in 20 years from now.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 17, 2020)

4.075/parallel/usb in, hdmi out/ external clock with external clock on R-7HE as well is the most analogue, musical, 3D sound I have heard on my system.  R-7HE in NOS has more detail, in 8X upsample is more full and smooth,

Same set-up with 4.076 has better detail, more forward, one step less musical but still extraordinarily musical.

I could hear how someone could call the new FW's foggy.  It is a matter of perception.  What I call honey glazed analogue smoothness someone else may perceive as fog.  For those who want a more clinical non foggy sound- revert to 4.07b1 or any of the 3.9's....


----------



## marcelnl

I'm not saying there cannot be depth or staging (also in depth), just that often with seemingly pinpoint 3D phase linearity is messed up over the bandwidth and dynamics suffer. Many folks are so dazzled by the 3D they do not miss the dynamics.


----------



## FredA (Oct 18, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> I'm not saying there cannot be depth or staging (also in depth), just that often with seemingly pinpoint 3D phase linearity is messed up over the bandwidth and dynamics suffer. Many folks are so dazzled by the 3D they do not miss the dynamics.


Dynamics are great too here. I used to have an issue with dynamics in my setup. I fixed it with a cable that enhances the upper mids.

There are many variables you can work with. Power cables is another.


----------



## sajunky (Oct 17, 2020)

FredA said:


> @blackpepperjam Verify that all your power cable are well inserted.
> 
> *Why 2 usb cables?*


This. Keep it simple when testing. Disconnect unnecessary devices. Also, (If I can help a bit) I think from a description that problem is more serious. It could be a simple phase reversal of one channel. A swapped pin connections on the balanced cable can cause it. There are free test audio samples available that help to find out.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 17, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> I'm not saying there cannot be depth or staging (also in depth), just that often with seemingly pinpoint 3D phase linearity is messed up over the bandwidth and dynamics suffer. Many folks are so dazzled by the 3D they do not miss the dynamics.



I love the beautiful analogue musicality of the new 4.075 and 4.076- but no question to my ears it is more smeared than earlier versions.  I have flipped FW's many times to compare and have easily confirmed this.  For now my favorite FW is 4.07b4 as the detail and dynamics are stunning and there is plenty of analogue flavor even though it is not as much as the new 75 and 76 versions.

It is all a matter of balance and everyone must call it as they hear it.


----------



## Thenewguy007

FredA said:


> Doing the update is no problem. Installing the altera sw and the proper driver is where the difficulty is.
> 
> You can get the altera sw here
> 
> ...




Is this how you update or downgrade firmware with the DI-20?

Buy a USB Blaster , uninstall the Amanero driver on your PC,  download & install Altera 16.0 on your PC, connect the USB blaster to the DI-20/PC & then power it on.
Open up Altera & go through the steps until you select the jic update firmware file you want?


----------



## FredA

Something like this except the amenero driver does not need be uninstalled, only the USB blaster’s cause windows install one by default, which is not good.


----------



## blackpepperjam

FredA said:


> Is burn-in done with all your gears?


Hi Fred,

I am in the AudioGD camp quite some time. I have started with the HE7 in mid 2015. The DAC went through several updates (hardware/firmware), inlcuding internal Singxer F1. Even this year an update to the HE7 2020 because of a power supply failure.
HE9 joined in 2016... I think.
Beginning of 2020 the DI20HE.

So yea, it should all be burned in enough 

btw, I am using the internal clocks only. No external at hand so far.

And most of the critial listening is done with headphones.



FredA said:


> Did you try 4.07b3? If so, was it good with imaging?


I have used v4.07b1 together with my Hifiman HE6 with Forza Audioworks Noir Hybrid HPC to get some color tonality wise. With the Harmonix TU-210 ZX feet under the HE9, a match made in heaven 
I have not tried v4.07b3 but I do have tried v4.07b4 which i liked much better and which works well enough with more revealing headphones like HD800 , but still too clinical with the k812. Once again really good with the HE6 + Harmonix.
As well as v3.9 (march 2020), which was the first update after the original firmware v3.32 (nov. 2019), which was the most analog-like and live-like experiences with the DI20HE with he HD800 and K812. Again, the Harmonix were a requirement under the HE9 or HE7... I can't remember. They have a bigger effect on the sound under the HE9 for sure.

In general, the Harmonix and Shakti Stones are in use to beautify a more clinical representation
I do have a shakti stone in use mostly on top of the DI20HE when listening to speakers.
http://www.shakti-innovations.com/product/shakti-stone/
I even use Ikea bamboo cutting boards if needed 

As of the current firmware v4.075 and v4.076 I have no beautifying tweaks in use. The HE7 is not even running in TDA mode. And the DI20HE is in parallel mode.
But still, very smoothed over... not enough definition going on. Specially microdynamics are suffering. Not as defined like with a friends Rega RP3 vinyl rig.
I have a cheapo low tier Pro-ject... something. And no, my digital setup can extract more details etc etc... but what comes out of the Pro-ject is well! defined, dynamic, with body and drive and.... less blurry, for example, a more solid and defined center image!!!

I can compare Vinyl vs Digital in my audio chain listening to 4 albums:

_David lynch - Crazy Clown Time_
_Sara K - Are We There Yet (live in concert)_
_Cassandra Wilson -Glamoured_
_Malia - Convergence_
For debugging purposes I can compare the
HE7 vs my old Violectric V800, the 
HE9 vs my Bryston BHA-1 and the
DI20HE vs a Acousence Artistic Fidelity ARFI USB.


I guess, I dont see, where Kingwa is going with the current final versions of the firmware and I will go back to a more precise one and apply beautifying tweaks to get a better balance that my ears agree with more.
My guess is, that the firmware of the DI20HE is getting developed with the R7HE 2020, which is a bit less warm and does microdynamics and imaging better...so, its the whole chain that matters. I might get a R7HE 2020 at some point. But... I am in no hurry 

cheers,
Daniel


----------



## FredA

blackpepperjam said:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> I am in the AudioGD camp quite some time. I have started with the HE7 in mid 2015. The DAC went through several updates (hardware/firmware), inlcuding internal Singxer F1. Even this year an update to the HE7 2020 because of a power supply failure.
> HE9 joined in 2016... I think.
> ...


Good point, Daniel. The 1704 is warmer so i understand you would favor b1. Or 3.9. My favorite prior was 3.93. These new fws  are indeed tweaked for the r7he. I like the 1704k dacs very much too. I guess you could try a silver ic if not what you have already. So you are a well aware audiophile, that's good. 

It's all about music, and i enjoy my setup everyday. Anything that can push it further is considered, not much budget limit for me. But i try to be raisonnable. Just ordered a nimak silver usb cable on ebay,. I read the specs and thought the cable was properly designed. Under 200usd so no pain. The new fws like a silver usb cable. 

Working from home, my setup is my daily companion and an essential part of my life. I thank Kingwa for making these highly musical and non fatiguing gears. They are vital to me. I have had the most productive year of my life working from home. Having Bill Evans, Chet Baker, and others in the room was a great inspiration.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Fred- I have the Nimak Purple usb cable and it is fantastic......
I have the Nimac flagship power cables as well and they changed everything.


----------



## PLGA

I don't know you guys, but with 75 firmware, as with other firmwares before, I get considerably better sound from AES/EBU connection between my DI-20 and my R8 DAC than I2S. Better definition, tone, smoothness, layering, detail, etc. 

The AES/EBU cable is 1m long vs the 0.6m long Blue Jeans Belden HDMI.

Shouldn't be I2S a better connection?  What am I missing?

By the way the AES/EBU cable is a chinese Nordost fake XLR, nothing exotic.


----------



## blackpepperjam (Oct 18, 2020)

FredA said:


> The new fws like a silver usb cable


Hi Fred,

I do have all solidcore 7n Silver IC's, only USB cable is 5n, i think. If I am not mistaken, the wires for the USB cable are from neotech. And the 7n stuff.. I have no idea. The cable guy said, that his supplier of the raw material is having trouble because of covid. But its material you dont get on ebay or similar.



rsbrsvp said:


> I have the Nimac flagship power cables as well and they changed everything.


Hi rsbrsvp,

thank you for the hint. Can you elaborate a bit more about tonality (for example focus on guitar strings or more the body) and soundstage rendering (closer to the stage or more far away)?



PLGA said:


> ...I get considerably better sound from AES/EBU connection between my DI-20 and my R8 DAC than I2S. Better definition, tone, smoothness, layering, detail, etc.
> The AES/EBU cable is 1m long vs the 0.6m long Blue Jeans Belden HDMI.
> Shouldn't be I2S a better connection?  What am I missing?


Hi PLGA,

that is what i have noticed as well with all Firmwares.
My explanation would be, that for i2s, the length of the cable should be as short as possible (<=30cm). The quality of the wires used in the cable are important too. The Blue Jeans is not as transparent and is sounding darker/muddy compared to my solidcore 7n Silver AES cable. So I have tried another HDMI cable that was mentioned somewhere around here. Moshou 8k something. I have linked to that one on amazon. Tonality wise it is more similar to my AES connection. But still less defined, more rough, less stable imaging... the usual attributes of lower quality wire material.
On top of that I would try JSSG shielding.
Speaking of my setup the I2s cable is a WIP for sure.

cheers,
Daniel


----------



## Toni-Mang

@blackpepperjam , thank you for your hints, which leads me to further critical listening sessions with firmwarechanges and comparisons to my PSAudio PWT.
Both are connected to the R8 via i2s (i have i2s on Input 4 and 5) and i can compare both sources by input button on the r8 simultanusly. I will keep firmware 4.076 for a while, i still like this version of presentation. The PWT is indead more pinpoint sharp, but the presentation of the DI20HE is at least as large and wide now. And i still prefer S mode, and no headphone testing yet.
I had phase relatet issues with scewed or shifted soundstage in the past with early firmwares before...this is gone complet. I am sensibel regarding a too centered image or a small instrument or voice presentation (thin an clinical as some low end sd dacs). For me it is important, that the width is filled evenly and jucy and the image is wider as the speaker setup., just like a good vinyl setup. But it is good, that we have different experiences, for cross checking purpose, because it is as ever subjective and i am also a cable matters nerd...


----------



## rsbrsvp

blackpepperjam said:


> Hi rsbrsvp,
> 
> thank you for the hint. Can you elaborate a bit more about tonality (for example focus on guitar strings or more the body) and soundstage rendering (closer to the stage or more far away)?



My easiest description of how these power cables effected my system is (substantially more open and more analogue).  Cant say how you will react.


----------



## blackpepperjam

Hi all,

I have nailed down the problem to the Aries... it is not a cabling issue nor audio gd gear fault. Its just, those cables do not mask anything and the Audiogd stuff is telling me "dude, you have an issue somewhere upstream!"

hmmm, after writing those lines, I might should look into visiting a psychiatrist...

Anyways, I will report back in more detail. Stay tuned...

cheers,
Daniel


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> My easiest description of how these power cables effected my system is (substantially more open and more analogue).  Cant say how you will react.


What a coincidence, i got a 65cm Nimak Black usb cable. I will get it within a month or two.


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> I don't know you guys, but with 75 firmware, as with other firmwares before, I get considerably better sound from AES/EBU connection between my DI-20 and my R8 DAC than I2S. Better definition, tone, smoothness, layering, detail, etc.
> 
> The AES/EBU cable is 1m long vs the 0.6m long Blue Jeans Belden HDMI.
> 
> ...


Kingwa worked on spdif i believe. I2s has its issues, for instance, all the signals do not arrive in perfectly synched. With algortihmc development, maybe Kingwa achieved better performance with SPDIF. I will give it a try, thanks for the info.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have been doing a lot of experimentation with the firmware along with different options on my dac.

On the DI I have "S" and "P" and internal and external clock options.
On my DAC I have "R" and "T" along with several NOS and up sample options.  I also have internal and external clock options on my DAC.

Once I try different firmware and mix in the above mentioned options, the variation of results is actually more than enough to tune the sound quite a bit.  

Every single change in any of the above results in a noticeable change in sonics and which is why even if we all had the exact same equipment and cables the results would vary.

I really have enjoyed the incredible analogue 3D musicality of FW 3.075 but found it lost to much detail and separation in that beautiful smoothness until I changed my dac from 8X upsample to NOS. NOS in this mix brought forward much micro-detail and reduced the perceived smearing that 8X induced in this mix.  The Irony is I have always found 8X increases detail but in the newer firmware's NOS is clearer with better separation.  Maybe my ears are changing.


----------



## FredA

@rsbrsvp 

NOS is indeed really good. Relaxed. A bit more detail, smoother. Less dynamic on the other hand but still good.


----------



## FredA

Got Billy Holiday Solitude 192/24 playing in Nos over spdif. Really nice.


----------



## FredA (Oct 18, 2020)

A/B between spdif and i2s: spdif is a bit smoother, the music has an easier flow, BUT details get lost, and bass extension is not as good. I2s is closer to the recording and more involving.


----------



## Wynnytsky

marcelnl said:


> trionor is growing...the framework stands, mono as concept so MacGyvering a lot



looks like a JBL Everest in the making
that's very interesting and all but the elephant in the room is, what geometry will you choose for the digital cables?


----------



## marcelnl

hahaha, geometry for my digital cables is the only thing pretty much sorted, a proprietary helix, made with fairy spun silk, copper dug up by dwarfs.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Twisted cable?  You've come to the right place -- we'll sort you out
And if those alligator clips aren't cryo'd then you'll def want to use 4.075


----------



## marcelnl

Think that a JBL everest is a bit smaller, this is 6 foot 8 squared


----------



## marcelnl

Wynnytsky said:


> Twisted cable?  You've come to the right place -- we'll sort you out
> And if those alligator clips aren't cryo'd then you'll def want to use 4.075



now that would be nice, to be sorted for once and for all 
Given my last project it should be clear I NEED to be sorted.


----------



## Wynnytsky

marcelnl said:


> Think that a JBL everest is a bit smaller, this is 6 foot 8 squared


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Fred- I have the Nimak Purple usb cable and it is fantastic......
> I have the Nimac flagship power cables as well and they changed everything.


I thought the Black was the flagship. Now this Purple is seriously expensive. I just hope the black beats the already very good chinese ebay silver cable i have right now. As for power cables, which one do you use on your dac?


----------



## FredA

@Wynnytsky @marcelnl Guys, seems like something is making you horny...


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> @Wynnytsky @marcelnl Guys, seems like something is making you horny...



When I saw the audiophilliac at the VPI house he made that joke and I was like wow this guy is cornier than series 4 cornwalls.  AVshowreports is cringe corny, but somehow I can watch that for the simple reason that his gear is good enough to record while the audiophilliac just likes to hear his own voice.  For those interested in how silver impacts the cable, it's amazing that it can be heard over youtube in this A/B comparison:


@marcelnl I highly recommend Joseph Crowes channel.  Recently he showed how to measure a driver's sensitivity.  He measured my previous 1" compression driver and shows me where it struggles compared to another model from the same brand.


----------



## FredA (Oct 18, 2020)

Three remarks:

1. the audio note put way too much treble emphasis
2. Having such long runs of rca interconnects is far from ideal and will aggravate any tonal flaw.
3.This looks like a paid ad.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Four remarks:
> 
> 1. the audio note put way too much treble emphasis
> 2. Having such long runs of rca interconnects is far from ideal and will aggravate any tonal flaw.
> 3.This looks like a paid ad.



But you could hear the difference (good/bad aside)?  He's only using that integrated in the middle so no interconnects there, but yeah that's a long run to the turn table cause it's not even in frame.  My friend told me this guys game is to walk into a room at an audio show, flatter the host and the gear, record the system, then say if they want it up on his channel then they'll have to pay up.  His awkwardness borders on comedy so I'm always getting ready to laugh -- seems like he believes in himself and he's got a wife so I consider that a success story in this difficult business.


----------



## FredA (Oct 18, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> But you could hear the difference (good/bad aside)?  He's only using that integrated in the middle so no interconnects there, but yeah that's a long run to the turn table cause it's not even in frame.  My friend told me this guys game is to walk into a room at an audio show, flatter the host and the gear, record the system, then say if they want it up on his channel then they'll have to pay up.  His awkwardness borders on comedy so I'm always getting ready to laugh -- seems like he believes in himself and he's got a wife so I consider that a success story in this difficult business.


Yes. I can definitely hear a positive diff.

Reminds me of going to youtube to listen to the Master-3. I liked what i heard. Get an He-1 and a set  M2H and be done with ampification forever. The m3 should do it though with your very sensitve horns. Like it does with my 92db Osborn Eclipses. Smooth treble, transparence, control, rich mich range but not fat.


----------



## blackpepperjam

blackpepperjam said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have nailed down the problem to the Aries... it is not a cabling issue nor audio gd gear fault. Its just, those cables do not mask anything and the Audiogd stuff is telling me "dude, you have an issue somewhere upstream!"
> 
> ...


Alrighty guys,

its the Aries Femto and there seems to be a bug in the Firmware.

Upsampling! With Filter set to "Precise". You can activate up/downsampling settings for all Sampling Rates seperately. So I have manually  set downsampling of one of the DSD rates and left everything else untouched so the Filter setting is staying active.
Every filter other than precise doesnt sound good in terms of beautifying so i will try DI20HE settings and what not later on.

The whole sound is clearing up, everything defined and pitch black background like I am used to, when I was living in Austria couple years ago and I did not have such LAN issues like I was having here in germany.
It is more dynamic now as well.

I have added the Audioquest Jitterbug as well.
And ignoring USB altogether works as well and going SPDIF into the DI20HE works as well as expected now.
The HE7HE 2020 is in NOS 3 mode. No TDA sim aktive.

And the Synergistic Research Tranquility XL bases, all the gear is standing on, are doing what they are supposed doing. Dropping the noise floor and increasing soundstage. Bringing voices more to the front and then the rest more layered to the back, without affecting dynamics.
Sounds are popping out of nowhere and they are just there... 
Closed mic'ed recordings are awesome.

Right now is playing
_Khatia Buniatishvili - Kaleidoscope_
and its great even with v4.07b1 being a bit too sterile... and no beautifying tweaks in place!
I am working my way up the firmware ladder now again.

I will report.

The Aries related issues are something I dont understand at all... maybe someone can help me out there. Someone with the same issue?

cheers,
Daniel


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> I thought the Black was the flagship. Now this Purple is seriously expensive. I just hope the black beats the already very good chinese ebay silver cable i have right now. As for power cables, which one do you use on your dac?



I actually do not remember the model.   It is his reference power cable.  I think X-25 may have been the model.

But listen; it costs around $600 or so and the owner developed this "power box" which is basically one of his reference power chords with four splitters.  I just connect any shielded $30 power chord into it (actually four of them) and connect those four $30 power cables to my equipment.   He says once the electricity goes through the 1.8 meters of his reference cable (which is in this power box) a cheap cable as long as it is shielded connected from the splitters of the box to my equipment will give exactly the same results.  Contact him.  He is a great guy; super super honest.  This power box was around $900 so it was much much cheaper than buying four of his reference cables.   The results are REMARKABLE!.


----------



## marcelnl (Oct 18, 2020)

create your own power box, start with a GOOD fuse replacing the switching crap nowadays usual in the power coming into house, get a good wall outlet (and wiring to it if you can). Then buy a bunch of good drop in wall outlets  ( I crrently favor pure copper, Viborg has some sweet sounding stuff) as all plating does something bad for something good. Use good wire inside the box, I found that flip close wire connectors perform better than soldering or other stuff but DO check your 'code', star wire and star ground the outlets and add a generous dollop of vacuum C's. Add a decent length of the power cable to taste and a good plug to finish it off. I currently like the Oyaide Wall outlet for the one in the wall.
Power for the people, or did I get that quote wrong


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I actually do not remember the model.   It is his reference power cable.  I think X-25 may have been the model.
> 
> But listen; it costs around $600 or so and the owner developed this "power box" which is basically one of his reference power chords with four splitters.  I just connect any shielded $30 power chord into it (actually four of them) and connect those four $30 power cables to my equipment.   He says once the electricity goes through the 1.8 meters of his reference cable (which is in this power box) a cheap cable as long as it is shielded connected from the splitters of the box to my equipment will give exactly the same results.  Contact him.  He is a great guy; super super honest.  This power box was around $900 so it was much much cheaper than buying four of his reference cables.   The results are REMARKABLE!.


I have assembled my own power box, it has not switch, no fuse, A thick aluminium chassis, phosphore copper sockets, gauge 12 silver-plated wiring, all for 130. and going to it from the wall, i have an all shielded gauge 4.5 400$ ref. cable from NRGCustom cable. This cable made the bass cavernous and opened up the stage significantly.


----------



## marcelnl (Oct 18, 2020)

testing, seem unable incapable of changing the avatar


----------



## Zachik

rsbrsvp said:


> Contact him. He is a great guy; super super honest. This power box was around $900 so it was much much cheaper than buying four of his reference cables. The results are REMARKABLE!


How do you contact this guy? 
Any link to where one can see this power box?


----------



## FredA

Zachik said:


> How do you contact this guy?
> Any link to where one can see this power box?



The guy is an eBay seller. The power bar is not offered anymore, but he might still take orders.

https://www.ebay.ca/usr/dmarget5


----------



## FredA (Oct 23, 2020)

A DSP is a very special device. It is not a microprocessor. It is rather a configurable circuit. So when changing the configuration, it is not excluded that there can be a burn-in effect. I have been with 4.075 for a few days. It took a couple of days to "settle" and for the last 2 days, it has been perfect. I love it. Liquid sound, great imaging/soundstaging, great dynamics, black background hence lots of details. It's great. Such textures too, the instruments sound rich. What is more, the old stuff sounds great too. It's where you separate the midfi from real hifi. With the all audio-gd setup, everything i try is enjoyable. I don't have to select the best tracks, i just play whole albums one after the other. Time flies like a breeze like when with someone you love. Some days are better than others, Sunday should be declared the ultimate audiophile day. On average, it is the best.

It is really nice of Kingwa is to have produced two versions. The laidback one (4.075) and the forward one (4.076). That is without counting 3.993, which i am sure i would like too. It took time, Kingwa had very important matter to take care of but i think what he has delivered shows what kind of person he is. I believe Kingwa designs his gears with the objective of achieving a no-compromise product, sonically speaking, at a price that still makes it accessible. He is a passionate and generous person who wants to share his passion with other passionate people. Not with snobs and elitists who want to impress with shinny enclosures. Of course he makes a nice living out of it, a very well deserved one as far as i am concerned. People of good will always be rewarded in the End.

 Correction, i shoud have said an FPGA, not a DSP.


----------



## FredA

For those who like jazz and who don't know Jan Johansson, get his Piano album. A marvelous record, great music that is very well recorded. A very inspired and inspiring record.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 19, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> create your own power box, start with a GOOD fuse replacing the switching crap nowadays usual in the power coming into house, get a good wall outlet (and wiring to it if you can). Then buy a bunch of good drop in wall outlets ( I crrently favor pure copper, Viborg has some sweet sounding stuff) as all plating does something bad for something good. Use good wire inside the box, I found that flip close wire connectors perform better than soldering or other stuff but DO check your 'code', star wire and star ground the outlets and add a generous dollop of vacuum C's. Add a decent length of the power cable to taste and a good plug to finish it off. I currently like the Oyaide Wall outlet for the one in the wall.
> Power for the people, or did I get that quote wrong




I'm not a DIY type.  Wish I was.

The one Nimak built for me sounds like Fred's.  No switch or fuse; completely passive conditioning- as the designer insists this is KEY.  He claims the thickest power cable in the world is in that box.


----------



## marcelnl

FredA said:


> Kingwa worked on spdif i believe. I2s has its issues, for instance, all the signals do not arrive in perfectly synched. With algortihmc development, maybe Kingwa achieved better performance with SPDIF. I will give it a try, thanks for the info.


is there more info on 'work on algorithms? just curious as I would suspect that S/PDIF and I2S are pretty much clear cut by now, you mean the FPGA processing of the signal?


----------



## ProLoL

V3.93b2 stopped working for me, other firmwares do work.
What could be the problem? My updating routine is Quartus --> Auto Detect --> First option --> Change file --> firmware file.


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> is there more info on 'work on algorithms? just curious as I would suspect that S/PDIF and I2S are pretty much clear cut by now, you mean the FPGA processing of the signal?



All this development Kingwa is doing has 3 goals AFAIK:

1. Supporting dsd over pcm (spdif) 
2.. Lowering jitter
3. Same as 2 but with the external clock, the way the needed clock signals are generated from the 10M has been improved

I still prefer i2s.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Is not i2s technically supposed to be the lowest jitter transfer from a computer?

I wonder why Kingwa did not offer the ethernet i2s option and how it differs from HDMI?


----------



## marcelnl

I also thought I2S is not supposed to be impacted by jitter/have the most reliable timing.
What I know thus far from I2S is that the format of the connection does not have an impact (let's say it's not supposed to when both forms are implemented properly) My Metrum DAC uses an RJ45 connector,  almost everyone else uses a HDMI connector. I have yet to find out if I can (how) I can connect the SU1 (using HDMI) to my  Metrum, first I need to wire the I2S card in. (was waiting to do that experiment but I first needed a more high res speaker to be able to hear any differences, that is now sorted with Trionor, playing in nicely!)


----------



## sajunky

rsbrsvp said:


> Is not i2s technically supposed to be the lowest jitter transfer from a computer?
> 
> I wonder why Kingwa did not offer the ethernet i2s option and how it differs from HDMI?


Yes, it does. I2S was designed to standarize audio transfer methods on very short distances between system components (chip-to-chip). It has a separate line running clock, so quality of the source clock determine the lowest possible jitter. Strange things happened that now I2S is also used to transfer digital audio between external devices. There are challenges on a longer connection, developers try different connectors/cables, there is no standard. It is why there are different sockets and even different (incompatible) wiring methods. Audio GD website highlight differences.

One things is important to mention. Ethernet i2S is not Ethernet, it just use the same RJ45 socket and HDMI I2S connection is not HDMI, it is just HDMI socket.


----------



## blackpepperjam

sajunky said:


> ...HDMI I2S connection is not HDMI, it is just HDMI socket.


Has anyone tried optical HDMI with the I2s connection?

regads,
Daniel


----------



## marcelnl

how do you envision optical HDMI using I2s, you'd need to convert the LVDS I2S that travels through HDMI into optical and back at the other end?


----------



## blackpepperjam (Oct 19, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> how do you envision optical HDMI using I2s, you'd need to convert the LVDS I2S that travels through HDMI into optical and back at the other end?


I do not envision anything xD
I have just stumbled over things like this:
https://www.amazon.de/SIKAI-Definit...R1BJT33H8CX0&refRID=4R33CB9HR1BJT33H8CX0&th=1

btw, love your avatar 

cheers,
Daniel


----------



## marcelnl

aha, so an HDMI cable with built in optocouplers. I expect it won't work for I2S as the data/pinout in I2S is different from I2S, as previously stated; I2S over HDMI is not the same as HDMI, same with I2S over RJ45.

thanks for liking my approach to head phones


----------



## pacomsa

Hi, 

I am the owner of an Audio-gd DI20-HE. I was using it directly connected to my PC (USB) running Roon and then to the DAC, without any kind of issues. 

I recently bought a Simply Best streamer with a Raspberry pi4 in it, successfully installed Ropieee, opened Roon, managed to select it as an audio device and then hit Play. Now... no music is coming out of the speakers. Tried different Ropieee configurations with the same results. Tried with volumio, same result....

Has anybody been through this before? Any help will be appreciated.

Cheers


----------



## FredA

In volumio, you need to select combo384 as Audio output device in the playback menu. And save it  with the button below.


----------



## Jandu

pacomsa said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am the owner of an Audio-gd DI20-HE. I was using it directly connected to my PC (USB) running Roon and then to the DAC, without any kind of issues.
> 
> ...





FredA said:


> In volumio, you need to select combo384 as Audio output device in the playback menu. And save it  with the button below.


If you are connecting RPi to Di20, with Moode, under Audio, I2S should be set to none


----------



## ProLoL

ProLoL said:


> V3.93b2 stopped working for me, other firmwares do work.
> What could be the problem? My updating routine is Quartus --> Auto Detect --> First option --> Change file --> firmware file.




Good thing about v3.93b2 not working is that I have some time to test the original v3.93b1.. it seems that the b1 is a more neutral version of the b2 on which is more saturated.


----------



## FredA

pacomsa said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am the owner of an Audio-gd DI20-HE. I was using it directly connected to my PC (USB) running Roon and then to the DAC, without any kind of issues.
> 
> ...


I don't know which usb port you connect too. There are two types. The blue ones are usb3, try a usb 2. As someone said earlier, in volumio's backback menu, the i2s dac box should NOT be checked.


----------



## pacomsa

FredA said:


> I don't know which usb port you connect too. There are two types. The blue ones are usb3, try a usb 2. As someone said earlier, in volumio's backback menu, the i2s dac box should NOT be checked.


Thank you for the answers. I have checked with all four usb ports, with different Ropieee configurations, different Roon configurations, Volumio configurations, but haven't hit the right one yet....


----------



## FredA

pacomsa said:


> Thank you for the answers. I have checked with all four usb ports, with different Ropieee configurations, different Roon configurations, Volumio configurations, but haven't hit the right one yet....


In volumio, try putting a stick with music on the SimpleBest and to play it.  You should get error message if the usb audio device  is not found.


----------



## blackpepperjam (Oct 20, 2020)

Hi All,

whatever I have said about firmware misbehaving, forget it, I take everything back. Aries seems to be faulty and outputting a f... load of hf noise via usb/spdif/aes, which results in fake soundstage and details and kinda muddy sound, depending on all kind of settings and cables used.

I am using a Samsung Ultrabook or something like that, with Fidelizer, Jplay and Roon and not upsampling anything (sounds too smoothed over anyways). Bingo 
Latest 3 firmwares are working like a charm. Currently v4.076 is doing its magic. v4.075 is great as well, only v3.933 is a bit too much for me. And in none of these cases it sounds muddy oder smoothed over or whatever. Much more realstic imaging/soundstage and ambient cues.
And overall very detailed and non-fatigueing analog feel. The most impressive to me is, ZERO beautifying gadgets used anywhere.

I am wondering when the Aries started making problems... probably already in Austria... I was struggling alot to make things sound great, which, at the end it did and I know that AudioGD stuff is capable to extract emotions and are able to trigger them inside me, from joy to sad to freightend... you name it...

There is one test I am still going to do in the coming days. Using the Artistic Fidelity ARFI USB between Aries and DI20HE, with SPDIF into the latter. That will result in perfect galvanic isolation because the ARFI is converting USB to optical, doing some reclocking and what not and then outputting it to either AES or SPDIF.

btw... headphones and speakers are working well, specially the former, even with v4.076.

cheers,
happy Daniel


----------



## Jandu

pacomsa said:


> Thank you for the answers. I have checked with all four usb ports, with different Ropieee configurations, different Roon configurations, Volumio configurations, but haven't hit the right one yet....


The only thing I can think of is to check if I2S DAC is in the off position under the same menu where you select combo384


----------



## ProLoL

Can someone link firmware v3.93b2? Mine might be corrupted.


----------



## DACLadder

@ProLoL  You can find it in the link below...
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!501&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1


----------



## ProLoL

DACLadder said:


> @ProLoL  You can find it in the link below...
> https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!501&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1


Yay it does work now! thanks.


----------



## Jandu

ProLoL said:


> Can someone link firmware v3.93b2? Mine might be corrupted.



V3.933?


----------



## ProLoL (Oct 21, 2020)

Jandu said:


> V3.933?



I've got it, thanks anyways.
The 3.93b2 is the most suitable for my system. By the way, I've received the audio gd power cable today, it's awesome, very open and neutral sounding would also say holographic compared to my pangea ac14 mk2 which is great by itself, a wet and organic sounding but a bit rolled off.

Now I need to change all my Pangeas for those.


----------



## Jandu

ProLoL said:


> I've got it, thanks anyways.
> The 3.93b2 is the most suitable for my system. By the way, I've received the audio gd power cable today, it's awesome, very open and neutral sounding would also say holographic compared to my pangea ac14 mk2 which is great by itself, a wet and organic sounding but a bit rolled off.



Are you connecting the power cable to the amp/dac/di20 or all?


----------



## ProLoL

Jandu said:


> Are you connecting the power cable to the amp/dac/di20 or all?



I've purchased this cable cause I need a power cable for my power conditioner but it seems as it's better than my pangea, tested connecting to the dac and the differences were obvious.


----------



## anroj

Wynnytsky said:


> Did the R7HE arrive?  What DAC are you coming from?  If you only have one BNC then run it into the DAC where I'm told it makes a bigger diff.  I presume you can toggle internal/external clock on the R7's front panel just like we do with the DI20, so when you get the 2nd BNC you'll quickly be able to compare the 4 possible clock modes w/o turning anything off or pulling wires.
> @Wynnytsky:Yes, the R7HE arrived and I got another BNC cable this past weekend. I've done some quick A-B comparisons of internal vs. external clock with FW 4.76. So far, i prefer the external clock, but it's close. Again, it's early and I need to be more listening, but there seems to be more presence and air with the external clock directly into the R7HE with that FW.
> 
> 
> I have yet to see a di20 firmware trip on i2s, but I've only had that one listening session with 4.075.  One thing I've learned though is do not turn off the DI20 while the DAC is on the i2s input -- it's not gonna damage anything but I'll get a high pitched squeal.  Same thing happened with the Singxer SU1, so that's a DAC thing.


----------



## anroj

FredA said:


> Good point, Daniel. The 1704 is warmer so i understand you would favor b1. Or 3.9. My favorite prior was 3.93. These new fws  are indeed tweaked for the r7he. I like the 1704k dacs very much too. I guess you could try a silver ic if not what you have already. So you are a well aware audiophile, that's good.
> 
> It's all about music, and i enjoy my setup everyday. Anything that can push it further is considered, not much budget limit for me. But i try to be raisonnable. Just ordered a nimak silver usb cable on ebay,. I read the specs and thought the cable was properly designed. Under 200usd so no pain. The new fws like a silver usb cable.
> 
> ...


----------



## marcelnl

@anroj eas there something you wanted to add to the quotes?


----------



## Wynnytsky

marcelnl said:


> @anroj eas there something you wanted to add to the quotes?




`[QUOTE="marcelnl, post: 15932329, member: 133115"]
[USER=394970]@anroj[/USER] eas there something you wanted to add to the quotes?`
@anroj don't respond here (inside the quotes)
`[/QUOTE]`
Only here (below the quotes)


----------



## zoophaugus

*Has any one compared the DI-20 to a Matrix XSPDIF 2 and if so what were the differences in final sound based on input to dac?

*Second question, does anyone here use the DI-20 for Spdif to Spdif only and what do they think? Say for a streamer or CD transport.

I ask these questions because,
The Xspdif 2 made a great improvement to my computer based audio feeding my upgraded Yggdrassil via AES/EBU cable. (Even a tad bit better with the uptone LPS1.2)
Now just recently I bought a Bluesound Node 2i for a secondary system and was so impressed its ease of use and decent sound that I had to try  it out on the main rig with the yggy upstairs.. Although it sounds damn good feading the yggy via coax its not quite "there" so to say compared to the computer based Xspdif2.

Is the DI-20 the missing piece of my puzzle to get that little streamer up to par?

Not saying I'll never use computer based audio again its just I'm really enjoying the ease and convenience of a streamer. I refuse to dish out big $$$ for one..


----------



## FredA

I am still swapping usb cables between the di20he and the usbridge. I inserted an ebay cable recently and it solved an issue with transmission that had been occuring for a while ( the digital signal would be shifted, which resulted in heavy digital noise). But it made the sound a little bright. So i decided to take the valab silver usb cable i had out of my cable closet (i really do have a cable closet! ). 

The valad is smoother. Too soon to say if it will stay in. I always found it too sound strange. I a have a Nimak usb cable on order, so the valab should be taken out pretty soon.


----------



## FredA

For those would like a smoother or more organic fw than 4.075, give 3.933 a try. It's nice. I think it's more subsonic as well.


----------



## Wynnytsky

(JRiver tips)

*flat line overflows* has more body
only use *clip protection* when doing up-eq (ex: Dirac VST plugin) on a poor recording with little headroom






not recommended by JRiver, and nor me until this evening
who knows what I upgraded for it to now have an appeal
it definitely removes a color that was probably there to mitigate fatigue  
recordings just got more unique and interesting -- time will tell how long I can listen w/o dithering.





MSB Analog DAC visiting next week -- I hope it's only a good photo for this thread, and nothing more


----------



## marcelnl

no dithering- not recommended....now THAT is a challenge if I ever saw one.


----------



## Articnoise

marcelnl said:


> no dithering- not recommended....now THAT is a challenge if I ever saw one.



Jriver recommend you to NOT select “No dithering”…. Easy peasy


----------



## marcelnl

Articnoise said:


> Jriver recommend you to NOT select “No dithering”…. Easy peasy


I got that bit, I woould find it tempting to try...and find out WHY not


----------



## anroj

Wynnytsky said:


> `[QUOTE="marcelnl, post: 15932329, member: 133115"]
> [USER=394970]@anroj[/USER] eas there something you wanted to add to the quotes?`
> @anroj don't respond here (inside the quotes)
> `[/QUOTE]`
> Only here (below the quotes)


My apologies. Nothing to post.


----------



## Articnoise

Today I changed to DI-20V3.933. I believe this to be my favourite FW. The V4.07 and V076 OTOH was not for me, and I actually preferred to output directly from my Innuos instead of the DI20HE while using them. The Innuos Zenith Mk3 is excellent by itself, no doubt, very transparent, sweet and direct sounding. Now with Innuos + DI20HE and the V3.933 I get all this from Innuos but also thunder bass and musician more clearly made out of flesh and blood.


----------



## FredA (Oct 23, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> Is not i2s technically supposed to be the lowest jitter transfer from a computer?
> 
> I wonder why Kingwa did not offer the ethernet i2s option and how it differs from HDMI?


The HDMI cable is simply used to transfer the i2s signal components in a balanced form, allowing less signal contamination. The S/N ratio is what determines the error rate of the transmission, which is normally not a concern cause near zero.  But also, it is what determines the noise-induced jitter.  The hdmi is less prone to crosstalk then the rj45 because of balanced transmission in part. The proof of the pudding is in the listening. Hdmi sounds  better than rj45 over the same length of cable. As soon as you do anything with a digital signal, be it processing, routing or transmitting, jitter is introduced. Hdmi degrades less.


----------



## FredA

Articnoise said:


> Today I changed to DI-20V3.933. I believe this to be my favourite FW. The V4.07 and V076 OTOH was not for me, and I actually preferred to output directly from my Innuos instead of the DI20HE while using them. The Innuos Zenith Mk3 is excellent by itself, no doubt, very transparent, sweet and direct sounding. Now with Innuos + DI20HE and the V3.933 I get all this from Innuos but also thunder bass and musician more clearly made out of flesh and blood.


Yep, i think bass digs lower and the sound has more flesh without it being exagerated. I like it too, probably my favorite.


----------



## Oepsie

zoophaugus said:


> *Has any one compared the DI-20 to a Matrix XSPDIF 2 and if so what were the differences in final sound based on input to dac?
> 
> *Second question, does anyone here use the DI-20 for Spdif to Spdif only and what do they think? Say for a streamer or CD transport.
> 
> ...


My friend Bech had the xspdif 2 with an uptone iso regen and seperate lps which indeed sounded very good. In my opinion, the di-20 (even non HE) that he bought was a lot better: more natural sound, better instrumental sound, more detailed, more impact in the bass - simply better on all accounts.

I my system, I borrowed his xpdif2 to compare to my gustard u12, and I actually preferred the u12 - the xpdif2 had a kind of veil effect in my system which was strange because when trying the u12 in my friend‘s system, the xpdif was the clear winner.

When I borrowed the di-20, i bought one the same night!!


----------



## Articnoise

Yesterday it sounded the best I have got it to sound with my gear . It was like someone had put in VAC Signature 200 in my system. Very full, rich and dense sound without losing transparency and transient speed or sounding soft like V075 and V076. Time will tell if I will appreciate the sound as much with all types of music and after the sensation/honeymoon period is over. Because as you all know one evening is just a fling, a couple of weeks just a honeymoon, it first after that we normally see/hear things for what they really are .


----------



## marcelnl

FredA said:


> The HDMI cable is simply used to transfer the i2s signal components in a balanced form, allowing less signal contamination. The S/N ratio is what determines the error rate of the transmission, which is normally not a concern cause near zero.  But also, it is what determines the noise-induced jitter.  The hdmi is less prone to crosstalk then the rj45 because of balanced transmission in part. The proof of the pudding is in the listening. Hdmi sounds  better than rj45 over the same length of cable. As soon as you do anything with a digital signal, be it processing, routing or transmitting, jitter is introduced. Hdmi degrades less.



Are you sure it's balanced? I2S is nothing more than a data transfer format introduced by Philips in the 80-ies, " An I2 S bus uses three signal lines for data transfer: a frame clock, a bit clock, and a data line." In the article https://www.analog.com/media/en/tec...echnical-articles/MS-2275.pdf?doc=an-1327.pdf I found on the quick as I wanted to look up I2S to compare to what I thought I knew about it there is not a single word balanced. 
Are you perhaps referring to they way some manufacturers implement I2S as LVDS? Also not sure how you arrive at HDMI sounding better than an RJ45 implementation, Metrum (and various others) have specifically selected RJ45 connection for I2S, with reason.


----------



## Articnoise (Oct 24, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> Are you sure it's balanced? I2S is nothing more than a data transfer format introduced by Philips in the 80-ies, " An I2 S bus uses three signal lines for data transfer: a frame clock, a bit clock, and a data line." In the article https://www.analog.com/media/en/tec...echnical-articles/MS-2275.pdf?doc=an-1327.pdf I found on the quick as I wanted to look up I2S to compare to what I thought I knew about it there is not a single word balanced.
> Are you perhaps referring to they way some manufacturers implement I2S as LVDS? Also not sure how you arrive at HDMI sounding better than an RJ45 implementation, Metrum (and various others) have specifically selected RJ45 connection for I2S, with reason.



The I2S over LVDS that Audio GD, PS audio and many other uses a HDMI cable to transfer, is balanced.

Am not @FredA but I have tested RJ45 vs HDMI back in the day when I had the Master 7. At that time the Master 7 only came with RJ45, and it was Scott aka @DACLadder that made his own I2S LVDS board which he used in his Master 7. He sold it to a few other Head-fier. Many liked the sound better and Kingwa who is open for anything that enhance sound started to made his own I2S LVDS board which we could buy and install ourselves. I bought the board and fund it to sound a bit better than RJ45, both using Master 7 and OR5.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Articnoise said:


> The I2S over LVDS that Audio GD, PS audio and many other uses a HDMI cable to transfer is balanced.


do you have any links on this?  I never heard of anything balanced other than XLR.

@marcelnl
I would have thought that if I2S works for rj45 and hdmi, then it must use at most 8 of HDMI's 19pins
But that is not the case [according to this document PinkFaun sent me last year]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fiXGAGorpewNYwVaUWdccVC4hjhqqX-nHNLzVwLwLdc/edit?usp=sharing

Worksheet #2 is hdmi, worksheet #3 is rj45.  If anyone wants the orig XLSX then let me know


@zoophaugus 
In January when I brought the DI20HE to a friends home who had his system dialed in with a xpdif2, the DI20HE was not a drop in replacement.  The Matrix interface is very concise/present/punctual in the upper registers.  I recall he tamed that signature with dark cables, mullards, stacked USB filters, etc, so the DI20 was sounding sleepy by comparison.  Something similar happened when I went to a friends house who ran USB right into his DirectStream.

I'm impressed the Matrix still hold's people's interest.  I'd love to have a shootout with a Denafrips Iris -- if someone brings one I can guarantee them free parking


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> Are you sure it's balanced? I2S is nothing more than a data transfer format introduced by Philips in the 80-ies, " An I2 S bus uses three signal lines for data transfer: a frame clock, a bit clock, and a data line." In the article https://www.analog.com/media/en/tec...echnical-articles/MS-2275.pdf?doc=an-1327.pdf I found on the quick as I wanted to look up I2S to compare to what I thought I knew about it there is not a single word balanced.
> Are you perhaps referring to they way some manufacturers implement I2S as LVDS? Also not sure how you arrive at HDMI sounding better than an RJ45 implementation, Metrum (and various others) have specifically selected RJ45 connection for I2S, with reason.


The transmission protocol that is used has nothing with HDMI per say. It only uses the HDMi cable and connector. It is not compatible with HDMi and must not be hot-connected/disconnected. 

See this page for the pin definition used by audio-gd(all manufacturer using the hdmi cable for balanced i2s transmission do not have the same, but audio-gd and ps-audio is the same, Singxer too) :
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R720/R720EN_Use.htm


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> do you have any links on this? I never heard of anything balanced other than XLR.


See my post. Of course, it is balanced. As soon as you read data+ and data- in the description of the pin-out it becomes obvious. That's old info for me. There are pins used for ground as in most balanced transmission and there are. 8 pins for the mirrored signals.


----------



## Articnoise (Oct 24, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> do you have any links on this?  I never heard of anything balanced other than XLR.
> 
> @marcelnl
> I would have thought that if I2S works for rj45 and hdmi, then it must use at most 8 of HDMI's 19pins
> ...



Some links I fund with a quick search. BTW USB and AES-EBU are also balanced e.g. differential signals are transmitted.

https://jameshfisher.com/2017/01/08/usb-data-wires-differential-signaling/

https://www.tempoautomation.com/blo...le-ended-and-differential-signals-pcb-layout/

http://www.just-hifi.com/Audio-Gd-Master-7-Discrete-Fully-Balanced-DAC-PCM1704_10479839-111.html

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134950.0

Edit: more links about differential vs. single-ended signaling

Don't forget that LVDS = Low-voltage differential signaling .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-voltage_differential_signaling

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/is-i2s-standard/15088/13


----------



## Wynnytsky

TLDR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
^F balanced (0 hits)
^F differential (10 hits)



I'm struggling to understand the relationship between balanced and differential.  This wiki paragraph says Balanced Audio is just the name given to the analog implementation of differential. Differential is employed by all these digital formats: twisted pair Ethernet, PCI Express, DisplayPort, HDMI, USB. It said the term balanced implies that the impedance at both ends is the same, but it doesn't go further and state this is not the case for single ended.

I will say all this time I thought the 3rd pin was just some neutral or ground, and whatever value got added in transit was subtracted from the destination signal.  But they actually xmit an inverted version of the signal at the source, and the "differential receiver" computes error as (signalPos + signalNeg)/2, and subtracts that from signalPos.


----------



## DACLadder (Oct 24, 2020)

@Wynnytsky   Balanced lines (differential) reduce common mode noise or employ "common mode rejection" per your diagram.  The induced noise is the same phase (common) on both lines of the pair but when summed in the receive the net result of noise is near zero.  The audio signal, with one side inverted, is not common and gets summed in the receiver.  Audio - (- Audio) = 2 x Audio.  Noise - Noise = 0. The best example of common mode noise rejection is a balanced microphone with 100 ft. of cable.  The noise on the line is probably larger than the actual microphone signal but gets 'rejected' at the balanced receiver.

With single phase everything gets amplified.  Other examples in the same way balanced DACs and amplifiers reject common power suppy noise and induced noises.

@Articnoise  I still use the homemade I2S boards designed back in 2014.  All three DACs.  Kingwa was slow to adopt LVDS I2S (I2s over HDMI hardware) as he was deathly afraid of being sued by HDMI.org.  No worries as all you have to state is "this interface is not HDMI protocol compatible".. HDMI.org still makes money off of cable and connector royalties.

LVDS is superior to TTL I2S as far as preserving jitter and signal quality.  This was especially true when I2S Mclk was used to recover I2S audio.  With asynchronous firmware Mclk is no longer used but I2S is still king on my DACs.  So "garbage in, garbage out" rule still applies.  But with each year and newer firmware/ technology there is less and less variation between inputs.


----------



## FredA

@Wynnytsky Not relevant. Forget the hdmi protocol and whatever they say about it. Only the cable and connector are used for i2s.

Differential pertains to inputs. When an input is differential, there can't be a ground loop involving the sender and receiver as the ground in not put in common between the two. Balanced means the signal is transmitted as itself  and its inverse in two separate lines. When going to a balanced gear, the signal remains in two phases, as received. Otherwise, with some gears, the negative is subtracted from the positive and the result becomes single-ended, using a differential circuit. With other gears, only the positive phase is kept.


----------



## Wynnytsky

this is good
https://www.hairballaudio.com/blog/resources/diy-resources/balanced-and-differential

He says...
"balanced signaling" is 2 signal conductors
"differential signaling" is 2 signal conductors, with inverse polarity on the 2nd signal conductor

Then he says...
"in audio" (I guess that means analog XLR only?) the 2nd signal conductor can be 0v (which I thought was always the case before today) OR it can employ differential (ie: inverse polarity)

@DACLadder 
From that, can I say differential is a specialization of balanced?  (ie: differential is balanced, but not the other way around)
Thus far when CMR is used in digital transmission I'm always seeing the differential method.


----------



## marcelnl

so I think we are agreeing that I2S can be implemented in different ways, and manufacturers do not use one single method/standard.

LVDS is indeed differential, but it is just one method to transmit I2S

RJ45 and HDMi are mere conductors used to transmit the I2S signal

so IMO the conclusion that RJ45 sounds worse than HDMI is a stretch without knowing how I2S over RJ45 is implemented and hoe I2S through LVDS using HDMI is implemented. In a brief communication with the designer of Metrum he informed me that their choice for RJ45 was done for sonic reasons and that in his implementation cable impedance is critical.


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> so I think we are agreeing that I2S can be implemented in different ways, and manufacturers do not use one single method/standard.
> 
> LVDS is indeed differential, but it is just one method to transmit I2S
> 
> ...


Of course, it is implementation dependent. Inside the dac, only 4 lines are used anyway. With hdmi, there is a great choice of audiophile cables, and balanced transmission is a plus as it prevents ground loops and crosstalk to a certain extent. But there is a conversion that needs to be done at the  source and another one at the destination. 

So whatever sounds best in your particular context is the right choice. The hdmi is more commonly used today, so this has to be taken into account too when buying equipment.


----------



## marcelnl

Agree with you on that Fred!


----------



## FredA

I seems that fw 3.933 is the one for me. There is a trace of hardness with the others i don't have with it.

Also again, it has tremendous bass presence and extension, while sounding very organics, with very meaty timbres. Also with very good  layering and depth. For me, it sounds like the original fw,  i.e. analog, but a little improved. And of course stable with the ext. CLOCK


----------



## Thenewguy007

A bit confused, on the website for the Di20, it say's


```
CLK OUT:  Outputs 256fs main clock or LRCK/WCLK (3.3V LVDS @ 50 Ohm) . User-selectable
```

What does CLK OUT & LRCK/WCLK mean?
Which should be used when using the internal clock & which should be used when using a external clock?


----------



## FredA

Thenewguy007 said:


> A bit confused, on the website for the Di20, it say's
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Does not matter. It is for the clock output.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Oct 24, 2020)

Today is the first time I have listed to 3.933.

Bass is the best I ever heard in my system.  Extremely dynamic and full with stunning resolution.  This version also to my ears- sounds the most improved with my external clock as it is the combination of the external clock and the FW which is producing the incredible bass, weight and punch.

4.075 is the politeness, and soundstage king.   3.933 is the detail, punch, and bass weight king..

I agree TOTALLY- 3.933 is it for now.  Could be others are better with internal but with external this FW is it...


----------



## marcelnl

FredA said:


> I seems that fw 3.933 is the one for me. There is a trace of hardness with the others i don't have with it.
> 
> Also again, it has tremendous bass presence and extension, while sounding very organics, with very meaty timbres. Also with very good  layering and depth. For me, it sounds like the original fw,  i.e. analog, but a little improved. And of course stable with the ext. CLOCK


that sounds great! I'm afraid I'm going to have to audition a DI20 soon! Compare it to a souped up SU1...


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> that sounds great! I'm afraid I'm going to have to audition a DI20 soon! Compare it to a souped up SU1...


It’s much better than a su1 from those who had both. it is great transport AFAIAC.


----------



## soundlogic

+1 for FW 3.933, for ALL the reasons noted above. Very “analog sounding” but with all the detail, weight, soundstage etc. that we associate with the best digital. No harshness or stridency to my ears.


----------



## zoophaugus

Oepsie said:


> My friend Bech had the xspdif 2 with an uptone iso regen and seperate lps which indeed sounded very good. In my opinion, the di-20 (even non HE) that he bought was a lot better: more natural sound, better instrumental sound, more detailed, more impact in the bass - simply better on all accounts.
> 
> I my system, I borrowed his xpdif2 to compare to my gustard u12, and I actually preferred the u12 - the xpdif2 had a kind of veil effect in my system which was strange because when trying the u12 in my friend‘s system, the xpdif was the clear winner.
> 
> When I borrowed the di-20, i bought one the same night!!



Thanks for the reply.. I guess what I am really asking is whether or not the DI-20 has the same strength wen it comes to Spdif input to Spdif output as it does with the Usb input to Spdif output. Is some one using it in that fashion say with a streamer for source feeding it Spdif and what do you think?


----------



## Wynnytsky

zoophaugus said:


> Thanks for the reply.. I guess what I am really asking is whether or not the DI-20 has the same strength wen it comes to Spdif input to Spdif output as it does with the Usb input to Spdif output. Is some one using it in that fashion say with a streamer for source feeding it Spdif and what do you think?



I'll ask my friend to bring the matrix with his MSB dac next week - i'm curious as well


----------



## zoophaugus

Wynnytsky said:


> I'll ask my friend to bring the matrix with his MSB dac next week - i'm curious as well


That would not be a possible comparison- The matrix does not have an Spdif input for reclocking etc.. Its USB input only..
I need feedback from some one using DI-20's Spdif input and or comparing that input with its the USB input . Is one input stronger than the other feeding same bit rate song ? When I say stronger I meaner better or worse..


----------



## Wynnytsky

zoophaugus said:


> That would not be a possible comparison


1. win10=>matrix=>msb coax
2. win10=>matrix=>di20he coax=>msb coax
3. win10=>di20he=>msb coax

wouldn't you want this ranked?


----------



## zoophaugus

Wynnytsky said:


> 1. win10=>matrix=>msb coax
> 2. win10=>matrix=>di20he coax=>msb coax
> 3. win10=>di20he=>msb coax
> 
> wouldn't you want this ranked?


It would be a great comparison for sure but my intention is to not use windows 10 or usb as a source... I want to use a streamer with a digital coax out as source...This is what the matrix is not able to do as it is Usb input only.
The instructions are some what vague for DI-20. Does the Spdif input go through the same reclocking and regenerating process as the Usb input does??


----------



## FredA (Oct 25, 2020)

zoophaugus said:


> It would be a great comparison for sure but my intention is to not use windows 10 or usb as a source... I want to use a streamer with a digital coax out as source...This is what the matrix is not able to do as it is Usb input only.
> The instructions are some what vague for DI-20. Does the Spdif input go through the same reclocking and regenerating process as the Usb input does??


Yes and no. 

The process is not the exact same, the output signal only needs to be clocked with the usb in, because with asynch usb, it is possible to avoid reclocking. So this means  lower jitter at the output of the di20 for usb.  For this to be possible, the amanero usb board takes its timing from the fpga, therefore the same clock drives the usb module and the output signals. This is the best possible approach IMO for a usb to spdif/i2s converter. 

With the spdif input, the signal absolutely needs reclocking. So in theory, usb will sound better. But sound quality still depends on the incoming signal quality, and i can testify that my usbridge sound better then a rpi4b+. 

I did an a/b between the output of my oppo dvd drive directly to my r7he, and through the di20he. The sound quality improvement is major through the di20he. It makes home cinema (2ch only) much more enjoyable.


----------



## Jackula

Wynnytsky said:


> I never even tried Queen's switching supply.  I have the Morion on HDPlex's 2amp low noise tap and the uptone ether regen on HDPlex's 8amp tap (replacing the 4.8amp switching unit it came with).  It's the swiss army knife of LPSs.



Your advice got me curious and I bought the new HDPlex 300WLPS hoping it would let me consolidate my power supplies and replace my LPS-1.2. It certainly didn't replace my LPS-1.2, but it did elevate it to another level.

There's hoping it just needs more burn in.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jackula said:


> Your advice got me curious and I bought the new HDPlex 300WLPS hoping it would let me consolidate my power supplies and replace my LPS-1.2. It certainly didn't replace my LPS-1.2, but it did elevate it to another level.
> 
> There's hoping it just needs more burn in.



My PC on the HDPlex (8amp 19v rcore) makes the sound relaxed and effortless, and pushes the performance further back (more distant).  If you have a fatiguing element, this will mitigate that issue like dark wires would.

My PC on the Keces P8 (4amp 19v torroid) makes the HDPlex sound reticent in the treble.  The sound steps forward, and the edge of notes have better delineation.  Among 4 systems I tried, the Keces edged out the HDPlex on 3 of them (the 4th runs six 500watt class D amps).  Two of my friends tried the P3 before the P8 and the advice was to skip the P3.  I wonder what the single-tap 8amp P8 sounds like.

If your CPU's TDP is 25watt or less then I hear good things about the SBooster, which delivers just under 2amps.  My 35watt TDP computer operates at 0.5amps (0.3amps when Fidelizer underclocks it to 1ghz).  I've been burnt before trading in headroom for better engineering so I'll put that on my wish list of stuff I'd like to be loaned.


----------



## DACLadder

Wynnytsky said:


> @DACLadder
> From that, can I say differential is a specialization of balanced?  (ie: differential is balanced, but not the other way around)
> Thus far when CMR is used in digital transmission I'm always seeing the differential method.



XLR, ACSS, USB, LVDS, wired Ethernet are all examples of balanced differential systems.  I always associate differential as balanced.  CMR would not work unbalanced.  A good example is old style analog telephones.  Balanced system and works for kilometers. Until bad insulation, water, or shady connection unbalances the line and results in  hum, noise, and crosstalk.

And my preference for LVDS I2S is limited to AGD DACs.  Other DACs have different technology.


----------



## Jackula

Wynnytsky said:


> My PC on the HDPlex (8amp 19v rcore) makes the sound relaxed and effortless, and pushes the performance further back (more distant).  If you have a fatiguing element, this will mitigate that issue like dark wires would.
> 
> My PC on the Keces P8 (4amp 19v torroid) makes the HDPlex sound reticent in the treble.  The sound steps forward, and the edge of notes have better delineation.  Among 4 systems I tried, the Keces edged out the HDPlex on 3 of them (the 4th runs six 500watt class D amps).  Two of my friends tried the P3 before the P8 and the advice was to skip the P3.  I wonder what the single-tap 8amp P8 sounds like.
> 
> If your CPU's TDP is 25watt or less then I hear good things about the SBooster, which delivers just under 2amps.  My 35watt TDP computer operates at 0.5amps (0.3amps when Fidelizer underclocks it to 1ghz).  I've been burnt before trading in headroom for better engineering so I'll put that on my wish list of stuff I'd like to be loaned.



The newer 300W version supposed to be a sonic upgrade over the older 200W, my research tells me the 300W is better than SBooster. However it looks like I won't be able to burn in this thing to see what it's really capable of. It died in about 4 hours and also fried my connected devices. Perhaps it's simply bad luck but at this stage I'd rather a refund than a replacement. Hopefully I'll get a return label soon.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jackula said:


> The newer 300W version supposed to be a sonic upgrade over the older 200W, my research tells me the 300W is better than SBooster. However it looks like I won't be able to burn in this thing to see what it's really capable of. It died in about 4 hours and also fried my connected devices. Perhaps it's simply bad luck but at this stage I'd rather a refund than a replacement. Hopefully I'll get a return label soon.



jesus that's a horror story -- I'd need therapy if mine did that.

Good thing about Larry is he responds immediately.  I've never known him to be chatty or conversational, but once I had issues with a PC build and he loaned/mailed me a CPU that I could use to flash my mobo to the latest firmware that would work with my CPU, then I mailed it back when I was done.


----------



## sajunky

DACLadder said:


> XLR, ACSS, USB, LVDS, wired Ethernet are all examples of balanced differential systems.  *I always associate differential as balanced*.  CMR would not work unbalanced. [...]
> 
> And my preference for LVDS I2S is limited to AGD DACs.  Other DACs have different technology.


Referal to differential as balanced is wrong. True balanced connection require symmetric power supply (or transformers). Current flow is between V+ and V- power rails and a ground connection serve only as a voltage reference, do not carry any load. The last element is critical for low CMRR. While similar scheme can be deployed for digital transmission (esp. on long distances), different parameters are important: compliance to the logical levels for '0' and '1', a shortest possible transition period and absence of signal reflections. Differential implementation is typically limited to a single power source and two gates, while one pulling up to the Vcc the other one pulling down to the ground and in reverse. Still offering sufficient CMRR reduction and also gives immunity against a major problem that do not exists in analog transmission. It is called "ground bounce", where high and low logic levels are associated with different impedance and in result generate current peaks when switching levels. Not a good things on a digital transmission line.

I strongly suggest to use correct terminology:  'balanced' for trasmission of analog signals and 'differential' for digital signals.

I2S connection between audio gear is not yet standarised. It is good that Audio GD decided for LVDS ( TIA/EIA-644) signaling standard. It can be used both on HDMI and RJ45 connectors.


----------



## DACLadder

@sajunky  Nope, I stand by what I said. Digital signals are in fact analog on the line. Signals are propagated in the analog domain. What makes them digital is just encoding/ decoding. ‘Balanced’ for a differential line or pair just implies two wires of the same type with equal impedance along their lengths and equal impedance to ground and other circuits. You don’t necessarily need a tranformer for common mode rejection and depends on the application.  XLR analog inputs today (99.9%) do not use transformers and have very high CMRR.


----------



## marcelnl

Did nobody yet take the soldering iron to the Di20?


----------



## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> XLR analog inputs today (99.9%) do not use transformers and have very high CMRR.


I know a preamp can have an XLR output and not be true balanced end-to-end (an opamp splitter can be used to convert single ended to balanced)
Given that both HDMI and USB terminals are differential, shouldn't that mean it's possible for a DAC to be balanced from end to end?  Among the AGD dacs with XLR outs, does anyone know if they are true balanced from the digital-ins to the analog-outs?


----------



## sajunky (Oct 27, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> I know a preamp can have an XLR output and not be true balanced end-to-end (an opamp splitter can be used to convert single ended to balanced)
> Given that both HDMI and USB terminals are differential, shouldn't that mean it's possible for a DAC to be balanced from end to end?  Among the AGD dacs with XLR outs, does anyone know if they are true balanced from the digital-ins to the analog-outs?


Once again, digital differential are not balanced, but analog balanced are always differential. So, if you rephrase your question and replace word blanced with 'differential', the answer is yes. 

As for Audio GD, I am sure that everything is right. Balanced are true balanced.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> Once again, digital differential are not balanced, but analog balanced are always differential. So, if you rephrase your question and replace word blanced with 'differential', the answer is yes.
> 
> As for Audio GD, I am sure that everything is right. Balanced are true balanced.


There many possible definitions for the  term differential. For me, it originates from the notion of differential input. Because the term implies doing a subtraction. When a single-ended circuit handles a balanced signal, it is best done using a differential input. 

Semantic debates are a waste of time. As far as how things are done with the hdmi i2s signal by audio-gd, it becomes single-ended as soon as it exits the hdmi module. Cause i2s is not balanced internally (or differential if you prefer)..

The analog section  however is 100% balanced or very close with the Master series gears.


----------



## DACLadder

Your definition of balanced is archaic.  What is not analog about a signal on a wire?  Any signal.  All digital interfaces (except undefined TTL I2S) have characteristic impedances which are analog domain properties.


----------



## marcelnl

No offense intended; I vote for sticking to proper terminology as things can get confusing real fast when we have to guess who is using what definition for differential/balanced and whatnot.

From wat I read LVDS (which was the topic) is truly different from balanced; source wikipedia:

_LVDS is a differential signaling system, meaning that it transmits information as the difference between the voltages on a pair of wires; the two wire voltages are compared at the receiver. In a typical implementation, the transmitter injects a constant current of 3.5 mA into the wires, with the direction of current determining the digital logic level. The current passes through a termination resistor of about 100 to 120 ohms (matched to the cable's characteristic impedance to reduce reflections) at the receiving end, and then returns in the opposite direction via the other wire. From Ohm's law, the voltage difference across the resistor is therefore about 350 mV. The receiver senses the polarity of this voltage to determine the logic level. _


----------



## DACLadder

LVDS is indeed balanced line.  There is equal but opposite polarity current on the 2nd wire of the pair.  LVDS receivers have CMRR.  
Give us an example of unbalanced differential signaling - analog or digital?


----------



## FredA (Oct 27, 2020)

Wikipedia is not the Bible on any subject. Especially for those who wish to learn what happened on a specific day of 2001.

This said, there is no issue calling it balanced from this other wikipedia article, which goes along with what Scott (@DACLadder ) said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_line


----------



## Wynnytsky (Oct 27, 2020)

FredA said:


> Especially for those who wish to learn what happened on a specific day of 2001.



we're safe so long as the revisionist historians are incapable of contributing to those STEM articles.

when seeking the truth the onus is on us to determine which sources that have _it_ vs those who think they have _it_, or worst of all, those who consciously swap the truth for something they like better (MSM!)


----------



## DACLadder (Oct 27, 2020)

The last paragraph of the Wiki article is a little misleading and strikes a conclusion that differential is not necessarily balanced (true).  But all the digital differential we use in audio are balanced. They have to be to work properly. 
XLR can have many interpretations as mentioned by @Wynnytsky.  Mostly to cheap out and save money.  Kingwa does employ proper balancing on AGDs equipment.


----------



## Articnoise

When we talk about balanced transmission, we are actually referring to differential signalling using balanced lines. Academically, there can be a difference between a transmission using balanced lines and differential signalling, but the term balanced is commonly used to describe both.





https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/def...ownloads/files/ND 555 White Paper Final_0.pdf


----------



## Wynnytsky

@DACLadder

I understood differential to always put pin1's antiphase on pin2
(I'm calling it antiphase, but I'm seeing the terms "inverted polarity" and "symmetric" used as well)

I understood balanced audio can be implemented with 0v on pin2 or pin1's antiphase on pin2

With 0v on pin2, the cleaned signal == pin1 - pin2
With antiphase on pin2, the cleaned signal == pin1 - (pin1+pin2)/2

Assuming the former is easier to implement, I was wondering why you'd go with the 2nd, and that last paragraph gave me my answer


> Symmetric differential signals exist to prevent interference _to_ other circuits - the electromagnetic fields are canceled out by the equal and opposite currents


----------



## jase01

Just received from Larry. Not ideal. Beware all who like me own an HDPlex power supply. Rather concerning. I have a friend who recently lost his JCat XE and Net cards through his older 400w HDPlex catching fire (literally smoke and flames):


Please do NOT use Adjustable Rail A and 12V fixed XLR output together


Hi,
Thanks for purchasing 300W Linear PSU.

Please do NOT use the Adjustable Rail A and 12V Fixed Rail output together and this combination might damage your 300W LPSU.

Larry

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 9:15 PM HDPLEX Support <order@hdplex.com> wrote:


>


----------



## DACLadder

@Wynnytsky  Another way of looking at the complimentary signal on pin 3 (-) is that it cancels the magnetic field of the primary signal (+) on pin 2. Lower radiated emissions. Pin1 is the XLR shield so we have no argument.

But connecting a signal to the (+) pin only and grounding (-) is common. The line is no longer balanced but usually works fine if treat like any other single ended connection. Short cables, shielding...

Since you mentioned previously the MSB Analog DAC is single ended. Their XLR output just uses an opamp to generate the complimentary signal to drive the XLR.  As a result the single ended output sounded better.  At least was so on the unit I had 5 yrs ago.  Something to check out if you audition this DAC.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@DACLadder yup it's the same MSB from 2014 -- but with their latest usb/coax/fw.  The shootout with my 2017 agd will be on pay-per-view

@jase01 Larry said the issue doesn't apply to the 200w.  Is the P8 within your budget?


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> @DACLadder yup it's the same MSB from 2014 -- but with their latest usb/coax/fw. The shootout with my 2017 agd will be on pay-per-view


How much? A nice host lady would be welcome,  with the fake pandemic, i miss my lady friends at the office.... My buddies too now that i think about it. 



jase01 said:


> Just received from Larry. Not ideal. Beware all who like me own an HDPlex power supply. Rather concerning. I have a friend who recently lost his JCat XE and Net cards through his older 400w HDPlex catching fire (literally smoke and flames):


Not the sort of fire you roast marshmallows over unfortunately...


----------



## zoophaugus

FredA said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> The process is not the exact same, the output signal only needs to be clocked with the usb in, because with asynch usb, it is possible to avoid reclocking. So this means  lower jitter at the output of the di20 for usb.  For this to be possible, the amanero usb board takes its timing from the fpga, therefore the same clock drives the usb module and the output signals. This is the best possible approach IMO for a usb to spdif/i2s converter.
> 
> ...



Excellent,
That's the kind of info I was looking for.


----------



## Mix80

jase01 said:


> Please do NOT use the Adjustable Rail A and 12V Fixed Rail output together and this combination might damage your 300W LPSU.





Wynnytsky said:


> @jase01 Larry said the issue doesn't apply to the 200w.


I was suddenly lucky... Thank you for the info.


----------



## sajunky

DACLadder said:


> The last paragraph of the Wiki article is a little misleading and strikes a conclusion that differential is not necessarily balanced (true).  But all the digital differential we use in audio are balanced. They have to be to work properly.


Wikipedia is not misleading. I made a wrong statement saying that balanced is always diferential, it was wrong. It is true in audio where "Balanced" is also "Differential" and my mistake didn't change a merit what I was calling for.

On the other side a digital  "differential" line cannot be called "balanced". A reason is because impedance matching is not maintained during transition time. Depends on a signaling clock rate it can be even 30% of time when impedance is completely uncontrolled. So *please do not call digital connection like I2S "Balanced"*, as it is wrong. A quote from the Wikipedia link you are refering to:


> Lines carrying symmetric signals (those with equal but opposite voltages to ground on each leg) are often incorrectly referred to as "balanced", but this is actually differential signaling. Balanced lines and differential signaling are often used together, but they are not the same thing. Differential signalling does not make a line balanced, nor does noise rejection in balanced cables require differential signalling.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I emailed Kingwa this morning and just now got a response
I doctored it up to look like a head-fi interaction



			
				Kinqwa said:
			
		

> Wynnytsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				Kinqwa said:
			
		

> Wynnytsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				Kinqwa said:
			
		

> Wynnytsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the takeaway is the entire analog path runs in symmetric balanced


----------



## FredA (Oct 27, 2020)

We all got that differential, symmetric and balanced are 3 different things.

Now the impedance is not matched during transition? Not true according to this article. True otherwise of an i2s transmission using TTL or LVTTL, which are single-ended. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-voltage_differential_signaling

Lvds allows fast signaling over a distance and for it to work optimally, impedance matching is required. Impedance matching will not be perfect at all frequencies of course, this is not possible. A compromise has to be made with this regard in my understanding so upper harmonics of the signal will be reflected in part. But the two phases of the transmission will stay symmetric. 

So calling LVDS balanced seems legitimate. 

This reference from Analog Device does refer to is as being balanced

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAjegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3S6te117Vwhn0YeQchVIC3


----------



## FredA

Frankly, i don't care as LVDS i2s with 3.933 and the external clock sound freaking well. Life is good when i listen to music.


----------



## FredA (Oct 27, 2020)

One thing Kingwa mentioned at some point is that his balanced preamps will convert an incoming single-ended signal to a balanced one so that it can benefit from the balanced implementation.

Kingwa is a die-hard old school audiophile and designer but with fresh ideas to improve on these old designs.

Non-feedback power amplifiers is a good example. 99.999% of power amps use feedback today. Kingwa does not on his top amps. The result i can hear is high-frequency response free of hardness or glare, yet transparent enough to let you hear any glare from upstream. Kingwa decided on purpose to implement an amp with an even 0.08% distorsion up to 5k so that timbres stay cohesive whathever the pitch. And from there to 20k the treble rolls off to allow those sweet highs. This is innovation. Also important is the fact that these figure remain when you raise the volume, so the amp stays composed when pushed. Frankly, this amp takes forever to burn in and requires proper cable matching but it performs extremely well.


----------



## DACLadder

Jeez, let’s move on.


----------



## sajunky (Oct 28, 2020)

FredA said:


> We all got that differential, symmetric and balanced are 3 different things.
> 
> Now the impedance is not matched during transition? Not true according to this article. True otherwise of an i2s transmission using TTL or LVTTL, which are single-ended.
> 
> ...


You are wrong again. I decline to comment on your inpretetation of Wikipedia to not waste other members time. A linked National Semiconductors document AN-1382-6 do not call LVDS a balanced connection either, nobody does, period. They say in one place "Therefore, it is important to maintain a balanced and closely-coupled differential transmission path", so they try, but it is not possible to maintain balancing during transition period as I wrote already. It is why LVDS name is a short form of  "Low Voltage Differential Signaling", not a LVBS.  The other things that may keep you confused is a fact that there is a talk about DC balance. This is about data encoding, complete different things.

TL;DR, Pay respect to the naming convention and stop calling LVDS balanced and continue this endless dispute in the wrong thread. You can be confused, but you mustn't confuse others.


----------



## FredA

0





sajunky said:


> You are wrong again. I decline to comment on your inpretetation of Wikipedia to not waste other members time. A linked National Semiconductors document AN-1382-6 do not call LVDS a balanced connection either, nobody does, period. They say in one place "Therefore, it is important to maintain a balanced and closely-coupled differential transmission path", so they try, but it is not possible to maintain balancing during transition period as I wrote already. It is why LVDS name is a short form of  "Low Voltage Differential Signaling", not a LVBS.  The other things that may keep you confused is a fact that there is a talk about DC balance. This is about data encoding, complete different things.
> 
> TL;DR, Pay respect to the naming convention and stop calling LVDS balanced and continue this endless dispute in the wrong thread. You can be confused, but you mustn't confuse others.


Frankly, you possibly are right, the NS document (not AD) uses the balanced but not necessarilly with the meaning you associate to it, not sure, i don't care so much.  But the audience here is composed of adults. And my friend @DACLadder, who designed the HDMI i2s module for audio-gd, calls it balanced. So i am naturally inclined to think he is right. 

You can comment or not on my interpretation of wikipedia's article. I am not totally assertive expressing it.  I may or may be 100% right. LVDS is as close as the idea of balanced as digital signaling can be. Some authority may decide to call it balanced digital signaling eventually, and I would not call it misleading. Is there a formal definition published by IEEE? 

To people who care and with sufficent background, do the research. Now i will continue to post whatever i want and try to stay on topic a little more. I want no bad to anyone. We are audiophiles here, first and foremost. And this discussion is meant for engineers. So we should call it off. Or send me PMs. I am always willing to learn. 

At least, i think we could agree that LVDS is a great idea for i2s.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@FredA you aren't interested in people learning the truth -- only that it comes from your words, and with each human mistake you just cover it over with your frankly, not necessarily, naturally inclined, my interpretation, not totally, may or may not, some may decide, not call it misleading.  The only truth in that post is "I will continue to post whatever I want".  What an ugly read.


----------



## DACLadder (Oct 28, 2020)

@sajunky  Please stop lecturing us.  From the National Semiconductor AN-1386-6 document (LVDS) it states on page 7. " Balanced differential lines have equal but opposite currents, called odd-mode signals... Therefore, it is important to maintain a balanced and closely-coupled differential transmission path to reduce emission of electromagnetic interference.".
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5988-4797EN.pdf

You are clinging to an old term of 'balanced' that was inferred 50 yrs. ago exclusively for XLR analog connections.


----------



## FredA (Oct 28, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> @FredA you aren't interested in people learning the truth -- only that it comes from your words, and with each human mistake you just cover it over with your frankly, not necessarily, naturally inclined, my interpretation, not totally, may or may not, some may decide, not call it misleading.  The only truth in that post is "I will continue to post whatever I want".  What an ugly read.


I am just being myself and giving my opinion, for what it's worth. You are allowed not like me or what i am saying. Or not. We are all human, with strengths and weaknesses Putting labels on things is not not my thing as language is also a matter of context. I say this before God: i hope to be honest everyday that i live and to remain humble., forgiving and open-minded, assuming i am. And to be happy in the process. Is this the C19 craze that's making us behave like this? I may have a character flaw or two, but as said, we all do. Thanks for maybe pointing one of mine. Have a nice day, my friend.


----------



## sajunky

Lets stick to a name "Differential", the name LVDS is indicative. Don't try to rename to the LVBS. It is perhaps a time moderators should come up and clean this rubbish, as participants clearly declared they were not going to stop speading their own theories. If you want to argue, open dedicated thread to your "Balanced" interpretation.


----------



## DACLadder

Call it what you want but the LVDS interface is still balanced.  That is not a proper name but physical characteristic. Sorry your are confused on the term and suggest you stop spreading your BS.

I apologize to the forum members.  I will not respond further to this topic and will be more than happy communicate with the moderators.


----------



## tumpux

Dont worry, most of us will just scroll down and ignore these lengthy debates.


----------



## Articnoise

Everyone has the right to debate, regardless of who is right or wrong, but attacks and personal attacks are not allowed here. Stop it and stick to discussing hifi stuff and how it sounds and works!


----------



## JaMo

Articnoise said:


> Everyone has the right to debate, regardless of who is right or wrong, but attacks and personal attacks are not allowed here. Stop it and stick to discussing hifi stuff and how it sounds and works!



+1


----------



## FredA (Oct 28, 2020)

Other fans of 3.993 out there?

I have been glued to my chair in the listening room every night since if i have flashed it. It's addictive. I am worried the memory foam i am sitting on will contract Alzheimer sooner than later. Etheral treble it has. So evident on this old Duke Ellington record i play two-three times a week.

For obvious reasons, we all need to evade these days. This hobby is quite the remedy until something better. Jazz musicians are the freest there are, so this is inspiring. They don't ask permission, they just are.


----------



## jazzbug

agree I still come back to 3.993 after testing all other FW.
It has bit more body, bass and darker background, though it does compromise with high, details, openness.
Wish it could combine the goodies with other FW, for now I'm happy with 3.993 analogue sound.


----------



## roni44

Still rocking 3.993 with Ext. GPSDO, very rewarding experience.


----------



## marcelnl

I agree to the point of KingWa being an audiophile designer, which is rare as mostly designers are number crunchers. I am following what he is doing for quite a while now. I fail however to see that zero feedback amps are his innovation, they have been around for decades, close to a century now.  Or were you indicating that his implementation is an innovation?


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have switched from 3.993 to 4.075 and 4.076 and then back t0 3.933 several times.

The 4. FW's are to to soft to my ears.  3.993 has punch, weight and resolution.  NO COMPARISON.....


----------



## FredA (Oct 29, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> I agree to the point of KingWa being an audiophile designer, which is rare as mostly designers are number crunchers. I am following what he is doing for quite a while now. I fail however to see that zero feedback amps are his innovation, they have been around for decades, close to a century now.  Or were you indicating that his implementation is an innovation?


Yes, as for power amps, what Kingwa calls linear fideality seems innovative to me . A design is a recipe, it the whole that matters. It has to have synergy between the design elements. This takes creativity and excellent focus on the target you are aiming at. So the beauty of a design is often in how you combine the elements. I am a sw designer myself.
With a non feedback amp, you have be clever to manage distorsion. The most important is to keep it very low in the upper range, where the human ear is most sensitive. 
I think Kingwa has a huge preference for non feedback as an audiophile. My own experience is that they are the smoothest.


----------



## pacomsa

FredA said:


> I don't know which usb port you connect too. There are two types. The blue ones are usb3, try a usb 2. As someone said earlier, in volumio's backback menu, the i2s dac box should NOT be checked.





pacomsa said:


> Thank you for the answers. I have checked with all four usb ports, with different Ropieee configurations, different Roon configurations, Volumio configurations, but haven't hit the right one yet....



Thanks again for all the answers.
After several attempts which included using a new Raspberry Pi, replacing the DI20 with my old Matrix SPDIF convertor, changing cables, all with the same result, I plugged in the Mac to the DI20 and could finally listen to music...
Any ideas on why the raspberry is not able to communicate to the DI20 (or the Matrix)?
Cheers


----------



## FredA

pacomsa said:


> Thanks again for all the answers.
> After several attempts which included using a new Raspberry Pi, replacing the DI20 with my old Matrix SPDIF convertor, changing cables, all with the same result, I plugged in the Mac to the DI20 and could finally listen to music...
> Any ideas on why the raspberry is not able to communicate to the DI20 (or the Matrix)?
> Cheers


Can't see anything but configuration. In volumio, there is a save button for each setting section. Be sure to press on it after changing something.


----------



## pacomsa

FredA said:


> Can't see anything but configuration. In volumio, there is a save button for each setting section. Be sure to press on it after changing something.


I agree with you... I have tried different configurations with Roon and Volumio but haven't hit the right one yet... any suggestions?


----------



## FredA

Have you tried playing music from a usb stick or drive? This should help with finding the issue..


----------



## Jandu

pacomsa said:


> Thanks again for all the answers.
> After several attempts which included using a new Raspberry Pi, replacing the DI20 with my old Matrix SPDIF convertor, changing cables, all with the same result, I plugged in the Mac to the DI20 and could finally listen to music...
> Any ideas on why the raspberry is not able to communicate to the DI20 (or the Matrix)?
> Cheers



Can you print a copy of the system config file and post it? This may answer some questions for why the Volumio does not work.


----------



## Articnoise

FredA said:


> Other fans of 3.993 out there?
> 
> I have been glued to my chair in the listening room every night since if i have flashed it. It's addictive. I am worried the memory foam i am sitting on will contract Alzheimer sooner than later. Etheral treble it has. So evident on this old Duke Ellington record i play two-three times a week.
> 
> For obvious reasons, we all need to evade these days. This hobby is quite the remedy until something better. Jazz musicians are the freest there are, so this is inspiring. They don't ask permission, they just are.



I prefer V3.933 over V3.99. 3.9333 is fuller, richer and more engaging, whereas the 3.99 has a bit too sharp treble.


----------



## marcelnl

FredA said:


> Yes, as for power amps, what Kingwa calls linear fideality seems innovative to me . A design is a recipe, it the whole that matters. It has to have synergy between the design elements. This takes creativity and excellent focus on the target you are aiming at. So the beauty of a design is often in how you combine the elements. I am a sw designer myself.
> With a non feedback amp, you have be clever to manage distorsion. The most important is to keep it very low in the upper range, where the human ear is most sensitive.
> I think Kingwa has a huge preference for non feedback as an audiophile. My own experience is that they are the smoothest.


I'm with you on zero feedback sounding better, feedback usually messes up phase coherency over the bandwith and human hearing is great at one thing....estimating distance which is done by comparing time travel differences between both our ears.


----------



## sajunky (Oct 29, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> I'm with you on zero feedback sounding better, feedback usually messes up phase coherency over the bandwith and human hearing is great at one thing....estimating distance which is done by comparing time travel differences between both our ears.


It is more complicated. Phase coherency can be maintained by using high frequency devices. It still looks fine on the FFT measuring static sine wave (s), but response to the dynamic signal like music cannot be measured.

I have nothing agains a local feedback (within a single amplification device). Problem is with devices like opamps which have multiple amplification stages. A fedback signal arrives delayed against the input that cause some internal stages get saturated due to the fact that for a short time period there is no feedback at all. Normally overshot is seen on the output, but clever engineers have learned how to deal to reduce overshots. It doesn't change a fact that for a moment output do not follow the input. In result the sound is sterile, but unnatural and dark, there is nothing else we can hear around dominant notes.


----------



## JaMo (Oct 29, 2020)

Hi,
@sajunky : -What firmware level do run in Your DI20 or DI20HE. You seem to have a lot to share so I wonder about Your findings. Myself, I have been trying out the newer versions (3.933, 4.075 and 4.076) and I am finding the 75 and 76 a bit too crispy and clear in my rig. The a bit softer and fuller sounding 3.993 is a winner here. I am runnig the DI20 HE fed by a Mutec Ref SE120 masterclock. Do You also use an external XO?
/Jan


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> It is more complicated. Phase coherency can be maintained by using high frequency devices. It still looks fine on the FFT measuring static sine wave (s), but response to the dynamic signal like music cannot be measured.
> 
> I have nothing agains a local feedback (within a single amplification device). Problem is with devices like opamps which have multiple amplification stages. A fedback signal arrives delayed against the input that cause some internal stages get saturated due to the fact that for a short time period there is no feedback at all. Normally overshot is seen on the output, but clever engineers have learned how to deal to reduce overshots. It doesn't change a fact that for a moment output do not follow the input. In result the sound is sterile, but unnatural and dark, there is nothing else we can hear around dominant notes.


Using current signal gain stages is Kingwa's method so feedback is used nowhere. Sonically, it pays off to my ears.

I also used to like the big set-ups by Moon (of Canada) who used to have no overall feedback, and probably still don't. Best amps of the show in Montreal in the 2000s, at least to me.


----------



## Thenewguy007

This is pretty frustrating

Can't install the USB blaster drivers.

I ordered this USB Blaster.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0761QJJ8D/

Installed the Altera program, but did not run it as per instructions. Turned off the DI-20 & hooked the USB blaster to it & my PC.
The PC doesn't recognize the device. I try to manually update the driver from the Device Manager & I choose the Driver folder & select the USB Blaster folder & that doesn't work. I then select the USB blaster II folder & that doesn't work.
Windows says the best driver is already installed for the device.

What am I doing wrong?


----------



## FredA

Thenewguy007 said:


> This is pretty frustrating
> 
> Can't install the USB blaster drivers.
> 
> ...


You have uninstall the driver first. Right-click on it in the device mgr and do so. Then do the manual install.


----------



## Thenewguy007 (Oct 29, 2020)

When I uninstall the device, it disappears from the device manager & there is no way to manually update it.

I have to unplug it & re-plug it back in, for it to reappear in the Device Manager, where it starts the cycle all over again.

EDIT: There is no uninstall driver option anywhere. Just Uninstall Device or Disable Device.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Where are you guy also getting Quartus II v12.1? I got 16.1 from the link on Audio-GD's site.

Does it matter because when I connect the USB cable, it does not show up as "Altera USB Blaster", but as "Unknown USB Device".


----------



## FredA

Uninstall device is ok. This version of quartus should be ok.  The device should show up as Altera Usb-Blaster in the device mgr.

The  try to manually update the driver searching under qprogrammer/drivers. Be sure to select the right device in the device mgr. I am not completely sure what i did the last time but it was something like this.

It is also possible that your device is not recognized as match for a driver. Anyone else can help?


----------



## DACLadder (Oct 29, 2020)

@Thenewguy007  Yep.  The PC is not reading or seeing the USB Blaster ‘Device Descriptor’.  This is done at boot up or when a USB device is connected. The USB ports are scanned to determine the USB device identity.  With no driver loaded and looking at Device Manager it should indicate unknown or other device ‘USB-Blaster’.  This text string is part of the device‘s USB descriptor.  Eventually the Blaster driver does not see a Blaster to setup, configure and mount.  Interesting the PC sees the Blaster handshake and knows something is connected.  But data not read.

What to do about it?  Process of elimination.... try different USB port (2.x), cable, and even the Blaster on a different computer. Give it a reboot or two. I had no luck with this type Blaster clone (Atmel based) after my PC upgraded Win 8.1 to 10.  Many, many people do though.  Eventually had to buy a real Altera Blaster clone and works great even with 25-ft. cable.  And my Blaster only works with motherboard USB ports (not the front ports).  Installation is always the hardest part of any programmer setup.

Quartus 12.1 is no longer available from Altera’s web page.  If 16.0 comes up and runs it should work OK. The problem you are experiencing is with the hardware/PC/Windows.  Kingwa was suppose to upgrade the documentation a few months ago.


----------



## FredA (Oct 29, 2020)

There are also related posts on p112 of this same thread that might be helpful. Thanks, Scott. You're the man.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

I love audio-gd gear, and am a late adopter of the DI-20 (non-HE). So far it offers a different flavor (more lively) than my current transport (a QLS 660) but I can't say its better or worse. I'd like to try different firmware to offer more flavors, but having some issues that I wanted to see if others are having, or if folks know of any fixes.

With 3.933, I get a periodic but noticeable glitchy/out of phase sound with spdif input from my qls 660.
With 4.076 the hdmi output to my OG master 7 does not work.

4.075 is most stable for me, but still get a periodic slight glitchy/out of phase sound with spdif input, but is more tolerable than the 3.933. I really like the sound 4.075 so don't mind living with this issue but it would be great if there was a fix for the spdif issue.

USB input seems to be more reliable than spdif input, aside from the hdmi output not working to the M7 with 4.076 even with USB input.

Lastly, there were some outputs (i.e., wasapi event or push, wasap2asio) on my foobar2000 that would result in a loud white noise coming out from my headphones that I feared would damage the headphones or my hearing. It was odd that stopping the music or closing foobar didn't make the noise go away, only shutting down the di-20 made it stop. I think DecentLevi was describing something similar with his unit, but I can't seem to locate his post anymore.


----------



## FredA (Oct 29, 2020)

BoyNamedSue said:


> I love audio-gd gear, and am a late adopter of the DI-20 (non-HE). So far it offers a different flavor (more lively) than my current transport (a QLS 660) but I can't say its better or worse. I'd like to try different firmware to offer more flavors, but having some issues that I wanted to see if others are having, or if folks know of any fixes.
> 
> With 3.933, I get a periodic but noticeable glitchy/out of phase sound with spdif input from my qls 660.
> With 4.076 the hdmi output to my OG master 7 does not work.
> ...


If you don't have much burn-in done, don't worry too much. And sound quality with improve up to 1000h. The worst phase is up to 350h. You have the audio-gd M7 as dac?

Here with 3.933 fed with my oppo bdp-103 over a cheap monoprice cable on the spdif input, there is indeed a periodic glitch. Can be quite annoying. 3.93 does not have it, if i am not mistaken. Give it a try.

It's too bad cause otherwise 3.933 is perfect for my setup. I don't use the spdif input much so i don't car so much.


----------



## Thenewguy007

DACLadder said:


> @Thenewguy007
> 
> What to do about it?  Process of elimination.... try different USB port (2.x), cable, and even the Blaster on a different computer. Give it a reboot or two. I had no luck with this type Blaster clone (Atmel based) after my PC upgraded Win 8.1 to 10.  Many, many people do though.



Sure enough, it recognized it as USB Blaser when I used a different USB port.

But it still won't install the driver.
Uninstalling it, does the same thing. It removes it completely with no option to select it to manually select the driver. If I try updating the driver without selecting uninstalling, it just says it couldn't find a driver.


When you guy select Uninstall device, does it not disappear from the list in Device Manager?


----------



## pacomsa

Jandu said:


> Can you print a copy of the system config file and post it? This may answer some questions for why the Volumio does not work.


Please see below, any thoughts?


----------



## JaMo (Oct 30, 2020)

Thenewguy007 said:


> Sure enough, it recognized it as USB Blaser when I used a different USB port.
> 
> But it still won't install the driver.
> Uninstalling it, does the same thing. It removes it completely with no option to select it to manually select the driver. If I try updating the driver without selecting uninstalling, it just says it couldn't find a driver.
> ...


Try this. Download the file. Change the file type from .pdf to .rar . Unzip to C:\ (root). Try to install the USB Blaster-driver, point to that new folder. Good luck
/Jan


----------



## DACLadder

@Thenewguy007  In Device Manager, before driver load, do you get consistent information when you unplug and replug USB to the Blaster?  I think your PC is confused as it also sees unknown PCI devices.


----------



## Jandu

[QUOTE="pacomsa, 
[/QUOTE]

A couple suggestions:

While troubleshooting, use volumio that came with the unit
Select no option instead of hifiberry dac


----------



## sajunky (Oct 30, 2020)

DACLadder said:


> @Thenewguy007  In Device Manager, before driver load, do you get consistent information when you unplug and replug USB to the Blaster?  I think your PC is confused as it also sees unknown PCI devices.


Think the same. I use the following procedure when troubleshooting USB drivers:

1. Uninstall drivers. If drivers do not uninstall. Run the installer, then repeat. Remember that if device is still plugged-in, default drives will be re-installed immediately and may show as unknown devices. This is normal. It may be neccessary at this moment  to remove all orphaned devices in Device Manager.
2. Make sure device is unplugged, reboot computer.
3. Run the installer. Only after installation is complete (or if installer is asking for) connect device, not earlier.


----------



## marcelnl (Oct 30, 2020)

Did anyone experiment making their own HDMI cable to connect the DDC to DAC? in the end of the day it's just a piece of cable, I reckon good Cat8.1 cable might work (those are good up to 2GHz), or a couple of twisted shielded pairs to an HDMi connector on both ends.

I just installed the AudioGD I2S board in the Amethyst, and I'm now sitting here baffled by the difference it makes even with a crappy and far too long HDMI cable (2 Meter).


----------



## DACLadder

CAT 8 would work fine for HDMI I2S.  At least on paper has the same 100 ohm impedance and wide bandwidth.

Audio GD DACs seem to prefer the shortest HDMI cables.  A self-built cable, without connector covers, may provide shortest wires for my setup.  Has me thinking...  But have no complaints with my $15 0.5m molded Belden cable.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5Pcs-HDMI-...110194?hash=item2a8b1622f2:g:SGoAAOSwWbRd52dS.


----------



## marcelnl

DACLadder said:


> CAT 8 would work fine for HDMI I2S.  At least on paper has the same 100 ohm impedance and wide bandwidth.
> 
> Audio GD DACs seem to prefer the shortest HDMI cables.  A self-built cable, without connector covers, may provide shortest wires for my setup.  Has me thinking...  But have no complaints with my $15 0.5m molded Belden cable.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5Pcs-HDMI-...110194?hash=item2a8b1622f2:g:SGoAAOSwWbRd52dS.



against that price nobody can argue, I just haven't found HDMI shorter then a meter or so but once I find a flat HDMI in 0.3m or 0.5 m I'll try one as comparison.


----------



## DACLadder

Wireworld makes 0.3m cables but they are just barely long enough to be workable. Used a WW silver starlight 6 0.3m cable for years ($250).  The Belden cable sounds as good or maybe better.  And Audio GD DACs f/w have evolved to no longer needing I2S MCLK.  I2S cable lengths still seem to matter though but not as much as a year or two ago.


----------



## marcelnl

Good to know, I have read good things about Belden over many years. Being a DIY cable tinkerer for 30 years now it's a habit that is hard to control  
I read somewhere Metrum also does not require MCLK, forgot to not connect it when rigging the I2S LVDS card but it seems not to matter, likley because it;s not connected internally although the Metrum I2S card has MCLK listed at pinout.


----------



## marcelnl (Oct 31, 2020)

finally found the sheet on I2S I knew I read a long time ago (as in the late 90-ies)... https://web.archive.org/web/20070102004400/http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/various/I2SBUS.pdf

and also a what I consider probably the first ever report of a dedicated I2S cable from back in 96, LOL
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/wrkman03.htm


----------



## marcelnl (Oct 31, 2020)

The Cat8.1 cable I'm using is tested up to 2Ghz, which is what it's specce'd for, I trust cable impedance will be as close to spec, I mean, it's made for server rooms.

HDMI connectors are ordered, we'll see what gives better results: the Moshen 8K flat HDMI cable I ordered, the CAT8.1 or neotech UP OCC twisted pairs in a shield per pair or twisted pairs of vintage silk insulated annealed copper in a shield per pair.


----------



## FredA (Oct 31, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> Good to know, I have read good things about Belden over many years. Being a DIY cable tinkerer for 30 years now it's a habit that is hard to control
> I read somewhere Metrum also does not require MCLK, forgot to not connect it when rigging the I2S LVDS card but it seems not to matter, likley because it;s not connected internally although the Metrum I2S card has MCLK listed at pinout.


The Belden fe-series is such a good cable. Impedance uniformity is so important, and they seem to have figured out how to achieve this. It's available in 0.5m. I2s is the way  to go it seems, at least i can say that going to the r7he, it give the most direct sound,  nothing is smoothed out. Always my favorite.


----------



## marcelnl

I am honestly baffled, USB to S/PDIf was an improvement of like 5%, it;s there and it's nice but small, this is closer to 30% (if that makes any sense as it sounds more objective than it is) The difference is there where it hits home hardest,bass treble, midrange, overtones, clarity, original acoustics, decay, attack, slam, pace,details etc.... when communicating w Metrum I was informed that the Amethyst did not get I2S as option because the quality was not high enough....IMO they could easily market the Amethyst at close to double the original price when using I2S.


----------



## marcelnl

FredA said:


> The Belden fe-series is such a good cable. Impedance uniformity is so important, and they seem to have figured out how to achieve this. It's available in 0.5m. I2s is the way it to go it seems, at least i can say that going to the r7he, it give the most direct sound,  nothing is smoothed out. Always my favorite.


problem is that Belden is US heavy, and S&H is more than the cable itself...but I found it and have ordered one....also need to connect my large computer monitor with a shorter HDMI cable so it won't go to waste.


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> I am honestly baffled, USB to S/PDIf was an improvement of like 5%, it;s there and it's nice but small, this is closer to 30% (if that makes any sense as it sounds more objective than it is) The difference is there where it hits home hardest,bass treble, midrange, overtones, clarity, original acoustics, decay, attack, slam, pace,details etc.... when communicating w Metrum I was informed that the Amethyst did not get I2S as option because the quality was not high enough....IMO they could easily market the Amethyst at close to double the original price when using I2S.


From the di20, you get an well timed and noiseless signal that no integrated usb module can match. Sounstaging and layering are something else.


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> problem is that Belden is US heavy, and S&H is more than the cable itself...but I found it and have ordered one....also need to connect my large computer monitor with a shorter HDMI cable so it won't go to waste.


Still a bargain. I got it under 20$ on amazon.ca. And it is clearly better than any other cable i tried for up to 40$. It does not have any shortcoming while the others i tried are a bit harsh in comparison.


----------



## marcelnl

this will set me back closer to 40Euro's for a 60cm run but it's for science sake so tax deductable  see how good the DIY experiments do against a good standard cable.


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> this will set me back closer to 40Euro's for a 60cm run but it's for science sake so tax deductable  see how good the DIY experiments do against a good standard cable.


I think it is worth it. I doubt you will regret it.


----------



## newabc (Nov 1, 2020)

There is some kind of strangeness that when almost all the world are clone but they are selling as brands in usb blasters: Waveshare, XYG/XYG-study and Terasic. We should know that even in China, if some brand with an obvious high price, has no obvious advantage on other similar products, they will be complained widely.

On 11/1 update: The "00ic" can be added into the above 3(Introduction: eng, chn). Terasic can be found in mouser.com. Waveshare/XYG has 2 versions, v1 and v2, waveshare link, both can be found in amazon.com. On the other hand, with a clone face, RioRand indicated its brand name in amazon.com.

If  anyone can read Chinese, this google search can found some introductions on dealing with a blaster. Audio-gd's pages on the 2nd page.


----------



## Thenewguy007

I noticed that there is a  3.993  & a  3.993_2 file in the firmware folder. Is the v2 the better one?

Also how do you know you successfull loaded the firmware? Altera does not say which firmware you have when you open up the program with the DI-20.


----------



## FredA

Thenewguy007 said:


> I noticed that there is a  3.993  & a  3.993_2 file in the firmware folder. Is the v2 the better one?
> 
> Also how do you know you successfull loaded the firmware? Altera does not say which firmware you have when you open up the program with the DI-20.


I suppose the 3.993_2 a bug fix to solve a glitch with the spdif input. I will give it a try. 

When you program the fpga, the qrogrammer tells you if it was successful. You can also run a verification, just check the corresponding box and click on "start". 

These is also an option to read the fw and save it to a file. Then you can compare the checksum of the saved file to that of existing fws.


----------



## FredA (Nov 1, 2020)

I don't see a 3.993_2 anywhere?

Ok. Got it on the headfi drive. The _2 (October) has bug fixes compared to the original 3.933 (June). But it does not fix the glitch with the spdif input some users are experiencing, including myself.


----------



## DACLadder

In my OneDrive folder I added _V2 to the October version of 3.933 as it had the same file name as a version from June.  It’s the same file as the official version that is current on Audio GD site (Oct. 2020) and same checksum. You are welcome to use the files but no warranty.  

Quartus will program, readback, and verify what is on the FPGA has no programming error.  The upper right corner has  programming progress block and error messages displayed at the bottom.  Takes like 10 sec. when everything is working correctly.

Did you resolve your USB Blaster issue?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Today was the big day when my friend brought over his 2014 MSB dac.  My usual routine is to keep the i2s home court advantage and feed spdif to the visitor, but the MSB didn't respond to the DI20HE's coax output.  So I unplugged my junk and ran USB into the MSB.  It was stunning.  Then I bypassed my crazy-spensive TVC and ran the MSB directly into the amps (this dac has the stepped preamp feature) and there was even more truth to be heard.  It was a teary eyed moment of national pride for me -- last time this struck me was watching falcon heavy's feb 2018 dual booster landing.  Before that, probably some olympic event in the 80s.  Alas, a current model sporting these features blows past the latest offering from EMM labs, and I'll say rightfully so.

So I want to fix my DI20HE's spdif -- my r2r7 doesn't like it either.  I replaced 3.933 with 4.075 and still nothing.  Any tips?  I will say switching back to 4.075 brought me much closer to the colorless MSB -- my evening is ending on a good note!


----------



## DACLadder

Did the MSB Analog DAC have the latest ProUSB module?  And did the MSB have the matching milled aluminum power supply?  Love the DAC output volume control and white LED display.

The MSB ProUSB is fully synchronous with the DAC. No PLL needed and makes recovering data from this input much simpler and less complex.  Synchronous just means the DAC supplies the two audio clocks back to the USB module instead of using discreet XOs like the Amanero design.


----------



## FredA (Nov 1, 2020)

Wynnytsky said:


> Today was the big day when my friend brought over his 2014 MSB dac.  My usual routine is to keep the i2s home court advantage and feed spdif to the visitor, but the MSB didn't respond to the DI20HE's coax output.  So I unplugged my junk and ran USB into the MSB.  It was stunning.  Then I bypassed my crazy-spensive TVC and ran the MSB directly into the amps (this dac has the stepped preamp feature) and there was even more truth to be heard.  It was a teary eyed moment of national pride for me -- last time this struck me was watching falcon heavy's feb 2018 dual booster landing.  Before that, probably some olympic event in the 80s.  Alas, a current model sporting these features blows past the latest offering from EMM labs, and I'll say rightfully so.
> 
> So I want to fix my DI20HE's spdif -- my r2r7 doesn't like it either.  I replaced 3.933 with 4.075 and still nothing.  Any tips?  I will say switching back to 4.075 brought me much closer to the colorless MSB -- my evening is ending on a good note!


Long shot: maybe you are confusing the clock input or the clock ouput rca with the spdif output... I have the latest r7 fw, no issue using either aes/ebu or bnc (acss)... Have not tried rca.


----------



## Wynnytsky

FredA said:


> Maybe you are confilusing the clock input or the clock ouput rca with the spdif output


your damn right I'm confilusing!  Just now plugged into red and the r2r7 is sounding lovely   Funny thing is I initially connected the MSB to red and got no output, so I switched right away, and it was futile from there.

@DACLadder yeah he had the latest USB and SPDIF modules installed.  I was unaffected by the aesthetics till I saw the white LED display, and that won me over.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

FredA said:


> If you don't have much burn-in done, don't worry too much. And sound quality with improve up to 1000h. The worst phase is up to 350h. You have the audio-gd M7 as dac?
> 
> Here with 3.933 fed with my oppo bdp-103 over a cheap monoprice cable on the spdif input, there is indeed a periodic glitch. Can be quite annoying. 3.93 does not have it, if i am not mistaken. Give it a try.
> 
> It's too bad cause otherwise 3.933 is perfect for my setup. I don't use the spdif input much so i don't car so much.



Thanks for the help! Yes, I have the original AGD Master 7, but with firmware upgrade. I got around to trying 3.93 last night, and unfortunately still have issue with spdif input from my transport. USB works great so will keep using the di20 for this purpose, which it was designed for. Glad to hear that sound will only improve with burn in.


----------



## FredA

BoyNamedSue said:


> Thanks for the help! Yes, I have the original AGD Master 7, but with firmware upgrade. I got around to trying 3.93 last night, and unfortunately still have issue with spdif input from my transport. USB works great so will keep using the di20 for this purpose, which it was designed for. Glad to hear that sound will only improve with burn in.


Glad to help. 

I expect Kingwa will fix this issue at some point. Maybe 3.93 works with my oppo but not with your source. Not sure which version i had that fixed this issue. It's quite annoying cause otherwise, the sound is brillant though it.


----------



## Thenewguy007

DACLadder said:


> In my OneDrive folder I added _V2 to the October version of 3.933 as it had the same file name as a version from June.  It’s the same file as the official version that is current on Audio GD site (Oct. 2020) and same checksum. You are welcome to use the files but no warranty.
> 
> Quartus will program, readback, and verify what is on the FPGA has no programming error.  The upper right corner has  programming progress block and error messages displayed at the bottom.  Takes like 10 sec. when everything is working correctly.
> 
> Did you resolve your USB Blaster issue?



Problem was I was using the USB Blaser II drivers. Turns out mine was a USB Blaster I, once I used the driver from the Blaster I folder, Windows recognized them & installed it.


----------



## mivarpet

ProLoL said:


> I've received the audio gd power cable today, it's awesome, very open and neutral sounding would also say holographic



I too got one of Audio GD's new power cables and agree with ProLoL.  It's a great cable and I found I had tighter bass and slightly better top end extension, along with better imaging with it plugged into my M7S.  The previous cable was DH Labs Power Plus.  I also tried the Audio GD cable on my pre & power and found the greater improvement was on the power amp, but both with similar types of improvement that the DAC experienced.

The Audio GD cable is great value & I will be ordering more.  Thank you yet again Kingwa!


----------



## marcelnl

power cables can make a nice difference, the audiogd one looks great. Making one is pretty simple too!

Mothership has landed, that MSB Dac looks great!


----------



## sajunky

DACLadder said:


> The MSB ProUSB is fully synchronous with the DAC. No PLL needed and makes recovering data from this input much simpler and less complex.  Synchronous just means the DAC supplies the two audio clocks back to the USB module instead of using discreet XOs like the Amanero design.


What an incredible device! It passes transparently all USB data formats giving galvanic isolation and transfer data over kilometer distance!

I like it very much. However I must say that Amanero in a form how it is sold on their website does the best as an universal USB decoder. An A-GD version is customised, I don't know how is modified. Ask Kingwa whether and how Amanero clock is synchronised with system clock.


----------



## DACLadder

MSB has revamped its product line.  The Analog DAC is obsolete.  The cheapest MSB DAC now is the Discrete DAC at $9,995.00.  Base power supply and only Toslink/ SPDIF input.  Their best power supply boosts base price up to $17k+.  Adding USB adds another $2k+.

So for $20k it better sound good!  And the bottom end the Discrete DAC is single ended (like the Analog DAC).  MSB balanced DACs start at $20k and add another $10k for best power supply and USB input.

And MSB states that ProUSB module is capable of 1km distance between the USB module and the DAC.  I don't know how that works when you plug the module into the DAC.  My PC is not capable of driving USB for 1km.  Am I missing a point?
"-Virtually limitless in cable lengths (up to 1km) between the USB module and the DAC"


----------



## Wynnytsky

@DACLadder
The new lineup is fully balanced but the "Discrete" model doesn't have the power supply and the "Premier" model doesn't have the preamp.  For that you have to step up to the "Reference" ($40k).  My friend grabbed a mint demo model of the obsolete single-ended version (w/ power supply, preamp, new usb module, new coax module) for 5500 (less than my preamp).  My amps are also single ended so hearing them hooked up together (no preamp, no usb interface) was really impressive.


----------



## marcelnl

I'd like to see the inside of that PSU out of sheer curiosity, at that price point I'd expect extremely exotic parts in their power supplies (and I DO know how cost price of the BOM works out in final retail prices)....one would expect Fahrad's worth of silver mica caps, silver wound power trannies etc. It's not that as if a DAC needs that much power or runs at weird voltages.


----------



## DACLadder

Ok thanks... For pricing I’m only going by this website.  I am no expert.  They have 3 power supply options and do not see AC jack on the rear of the chassis.  You are correct about balanced and no preamp with Discrete vs. Analog DAC. 
https://almaaudio.com/products/msb-discrete-dac


----------



## Wynnytsky

@marcelnl

old model uses one umbilical cord





new one has two!


----------



## sajunky (Nov 2, 2020)

DACLadder said:


> And MSB states that ProUSB module is capable of 1km distance between the USB module and the DAC.  I don't know how that works when you plug the module into the DAC.  My PC is not capable of driving USB for 1km.  Am I missing a point?
> "-Virtually limitless in cable lengths (up to 1km) between the USB module and the DAC"


According to what I read, there are three components: USB dongle you plug into PC USB port, then a proprietary optical cable and a receiver module on the DAC. Unlike a standard S/PDIF, there is two-way link between DAC and USB dongle, so a dongle is pulling data from USB port synchronously with a DAC clock. Similar solution to a world clock, but integrated in a single link.

To make it on-topic, I think it is a briliant idea. I suggest Kingwa to make something similar. It shouldn't be difficult to do, as standard SFP fiber network interface chips have bi-directional transfer, can be re-used. It can be cheap like this: https://www.takealot.com/tp-link-gigabit-sfp-media-converter/PLID28719935


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 2, 2020)

@Wynnytsky : looks nicely machined from Aluminium but made with regular components. A solid balanced PSU with what appears  to be one tranny dedicated to each power line, nicely done but at a pretty hefty price...


----------



## Wynnytsky

@marcelnl 
The only affordable brand I know that starts from a block of aluminum like that is Matrix.  My friend likes using their USB interface with the MSB.

@sajunky 
(while on the topic of optical)
EMM put their proprietary "Optilink" connection on both their DAC and streamer.  It's just a single 62.5/125 multimode fiber cable, but with the twist-lock terminals ...


----------



## marcelnl

@Wynnytsky ; I would personally stay away from Aluminium designing a DAC or Amp. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE how ot looks and feels when components are solidly machined, I just like the sound better sans metal.

LOL, that proprietary interlink looks like something I'm using since the late 90-ies, dual carriage optical interface, think I even have a now obsolete RS232 type interface for it lying around...biggest drawback- yet another conversion taking place.... biggest advantage -immune for high freq EMI and galvanic isolation...yet for audio?


----------



## DACLadder

MSB ProUSB makes sense now.  External USB to optical fiber.  You need a ProISL fiber module in the DAC.  Thanks!


----------



## Jackula

From your description @Wynnytsky the Analog sounds like a more truthful version of the Discrete DAC. While I haven't listened to the older MSB DACs (i.e. Analog), the sound of the newer MSB Analog and Reference are voiced towards smoothness and pleasantness, than a more truthful and drier sounding DAC like the R7/HE. It's another reason why I preferred the old 4.07b1 firmware (I'm the only one on this forum, but at least Kingwa shares the same opinion). I find the drier the sound, the more visceral the textures and expressiveness!


----------



## FredA (Nov 2, 2020)

sajunky said:


> What an incredible device! It passes transparently all USB data formats giving galvanic isolation and transfer data over kilometer distance!
> 
> I like it very much. However I must say that Amanero in a form how it is sold on their website does the best as an universal USB decoder. An A-GD version is customised, I don't know how is modified. Ask Kingwa whether and how Amanero clock is synchronised with system clock.


In the di20, the FPGA on the clean side provides the needed clock signals to the costumized amanero (dirty side) . The clock signal path has gavanic isolation, same for audio data. So the clean side is kept as clean as possible. Hence the usb audio data is simply clocked (not reclocked)  so jitter is very low.

The audio-gd dac do not have this neat design. But perhaps in the future they will.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@Jackula
wow the R7HE makes the discrete DAC sound warm?  Sounds like the R7HE is for me!

The Analog dac was super transparent+fast with very low ring like a 9038pro, but when you play a high pitch passage louder than it ought to be, I was somehow spared that moment of cringing fatigue.



Jackula said:


> I find the drier the sound, the more visceral the textures and expressiveness!


exactly - and for me 4.075 delivers in that respect

Shouldn't covid inflate the demand (and price) of hifi the way it did bicycles?  The audio elves should be at 100% utilization this season.


----------



## sajunky

FredA said:


> In the di20, the FPGA on the clean side provides the needed clock signals to the costumized amanero (dirty side) . The clock signal path has gavanic isolation, same for audio data. So the clean side is kept as clean as possible. Hence the usb audio data is simply clocked (not reclocked)  so jitter is very low.
> 
> The audio-gd dac do not have this neat design. But perhaps in the future they will.


That's great. I noticed that there is no clock upgrade option for the Amanero module (while it is for DACs), but I didn't understand fully this:


> _8, The USB inteface and FPGA processor have applied the same clocks for avoid the different clocks effect the sound quality ._


It is why I wrote this message - wasn't not 100% sure. Now is clear, thank you.


----------



## DACLadder

@Wynnytsky  You need to compare to the latest R7 series.  The V1 DAC modules on the R2R 7 are not the best that Kingwa offers today.  Agree with Jackula that the Analog DAC is smooth and does render vocals/ highs very well.  The V1 DAC boards would be harsh and glaring in comparison.  And since you mention tweeters quite often I think you and your ears would be very surprised.  

I would even put my heavily tweaked M7S (+DI-20HE) up against the Analog DAC.  Would be fun to compare again.


----------



## macrog

Is there a way to tell what firmware the DI ships with?  Mine arrived yesterday. I asked for version 76 but it won’t play DSD so I am wondering if it’s version 3.993. I am running it via aes/ebu into Kii three active speakers


----------



## ProLoL

macrog said:


> Is there a way to tell what firmware the DI ships with?  Mine arrived yesterday. I asked for version 76 but it won’t play DSD so I am wondering if it’s version 3.993. I am running it via aes/ebu into Kii three active speakers



I don't think spdif / aes can do over dsd64.


----------



## Wynnytsky

@macrog looks like it will only decode DSD over it's USB input


----------



## macrog

Wynnytsky said:


> @macrog looks like it will only decode DSD over it's USB input


Thank you useful information 

I will activate the second USB port on JCAT USB card


----------



## marcelnl

FredA said:


> I think it is worth it. I doubt you will regret it.



Cable already arrived, not sure how they did it but FedeX dropped it off this morning...think someone hand carried it 

First impression is good, cleaner, more definition, it's breaking in at the moment...


----------



## marcelnl

marcelnl said:


> Cable already arrived, not sure how they did it but FedeX dropped it off this morning...think someone hand carried it
> 
> First impression is good, cleaner, more definition, it's breaking in at the moment...



further impressions are good, cable sounds tighter, cleaner, better definition/separation. Also received the wire and connectors to create my own HDMI cable, let's see...


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> further impressions are good, cable sounds tighter, cleaner, better definition/separation. Also received the wire and connectors to create my own HDMI cable, let's see...


Looking forward to your findings!


----------



## FredA (Nov 7, 2020)

Received my Nimak Black 0.6m usb cable.

Not burned-in, it's about at the same level as the ms-audio silver cable, a little less smooth but with more detail, and with a little tighter bass. So it's a very promising cable. Build quality is good, it is made by hand so it's not absolutely perfectly assembled, but still made with great care. Anyway, to really see how well made a cable is, you need to take it apart. So listening is the best thing that can be done realistically.

I picked it because i noticed it had a large bandwidth, and this seems to count much when used between the usbridge sig and the di20he. Same with the ms-audio. When used to transfer data, you can easilly see that some cables will allow faster i/o operations, as the ms-audio obviously did (granted the lower noise level that comes from superior shielding between data and power, the quick rise time, and impedance uniformity) . I would not unconditionally recommend the ms-audio as i did not like it with the previous ddcs i owned. Anyway, ms-audio/valab seems to have disappeared from ebay. Sad.

So far so good with the Nimak.


----------



## FredA

It now has 10 hours of play time, which is far from enough, but still...

Now I am really shocked. I am shaking my head. Pitch-black background, which make the instument materialize and stand out, full of dynamics and timbre richness. All the subtle inflexions. It feels like a dac upgrade to some extent. Another cliche: a veil has been lifted. It goes deeper into the recording, extracts more from it, in a balanced and natural way. And bass is tuneful.  And you should hear the bassdrum kick!

Totally unexpected. How can a usb cable make such a difference..? I guess one needs a silent and well timed usb transport to extract such benefits, i never could hear much difference between usb cable from a mac mini.


----------



## marcelnl

I'm also still gobsmacked by the difference in USB cables, of all connections it should be the least 'picky'. Of plenty of exotic wires my 'on the quick' USB cable made out of some CAT 8.1 network cable does best (bandwirdt up to 2Ghz).


----------



## FredA

marcelnl said:


> I'm also still gobsmacked by the difference in USB cables, of all connections it should be the least 'picky'. Of plenty of exotic wires my 'on the quick' USB cable made out of some CAT 8.1 network cable does best (bandwirdt up to 2Ghz).


This is a very.good idea.  Do you use 2 pairs for the vbus and 1 for data? The only issue i see the rj45 cables have an impedance of 100 vs 90ohm for usb.


----------



## sajunky (Nov 7, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> I'm also still gobsmacked by the difference in USB cables, of all connections it should be the least 'picky'. Of plenty of exotic wires my 'on the quick' USB cable made out of some CAT 8.1 network cable does best (bandwirdt up to 2Ghz).


How do you terminate USB cable? I mean - shield terminated to the ground on both sides? (2) Do you find benefits of blocking 5V pin at the source?

You see, there are more questions.


----------



## marcelnl

THe Metrum DAC needs the 5V pin, with my previous DAC I fooled it by connecting 5V form the DAC internally to the 5V USB pin.
I'm not too worried about shielding, but I connect the shield on one side (source), unshielded works well enough to not hear a difference.

CAT (whatever cat) has more twisted pairs than you need, I', using one shielded pair for Data + and Data - and use one separate wire for + 5V and - each wire shielded


----------



## sajunky (Nov 7, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> THe Metrum DAC needs the 5V pin, with my previous DAC I fooled it by connecting 5V form the DAC internally to the 5V USB pin.
> I'm not too worried about shielding, but I connect the shield on one side (source), unshielded works well enough to not hear a difference.


Thanks. When making my own shielded twisted pairs cable for RCA connection I do the same. That way cable becomes directional, terminated side should be plugged on the receiving side. Ground loops do not flow easily through the twisted pair, have to find a lower impedance path (mains cord).


marcelnl said:


> CAT (whatever cat) has more twisted pairs than you need, I', using one shielded pair for Data + and Data - and use one separate wire for + 5V and - each wire shielded


When I do my own, I will follow similar approach to my RCA connection. One twisted pair for Data +/- and the other for +5V/ ground and a shield terminated only on one side (all pairs, including unused ones). It should work the best for receivers that do require 5V to operate. I expect, it would also remove benefit of isolating 5V pin on the A-GD DACs, it is why I asked a question. I don't like this solution, as detection of diconnected device is not working properly. If you try, please post feedback.


----------



## FredA

@rsbrsvp 

You are right about Nimak. They make outstanding usb cables. The Black series brings more clarity, better focus, better microdynamics,  better bass, a more relax sound. Perfect balance, better imaging, layering and timbres. Better everything. It is splendid.


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## PLGA (Nov 10, 2020)

FredA said:


> @rsbrsvp
> 
> You are right about Nimak. They make outstanding usb cables. The Black series brings more clarity, better focus, better microdynamics,  better bass, a more relax sound. Perfect balance, better imaging, layering and timbres. Better everything. It is splendid.



Hi Fred
I was about to buy a USB cable as I need one about 0.5m long to test against my DH Labs. Can you post the link to where you bought the Nimak USB cable?

I believe it will exceed my budget, but who knows... if it's such a incredible cable...


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Hi Fred
> I was about to buy a USB cable as I need one about 0.5m long to test against my DH Labs. Can you post the link to where you bought the Nimak USB cable?
> 
> I believe it will exceed my budget, but who knows... if it's such a incredible cable...


Now, with the burn-in, it has regressed. I have lost some bass. You may want to wait until i am done, should be another week or so.

This the link for 0.65m. The seller accepted 160USD, shipping not included. With shipping, it was 180.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Nimak-Audio...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## PLGA

Thank you.

What other USB cable around 50 to 150 bucks would you recomend besides this one?

What about you guys? wich one would you recomend?


----------



## marcelnl

make one, it's super simple. See if you can get screw fasten type USB connectors (I haven't found them yet so if you run across some let me know). I'm using plated solder on DIY USB connectors, find some decent cable and insulator, tinker around with different cables (go crazy) some twisting and shielding. I'm currently using a piece of CAT8.1 ethernet cable, good for up to 2 Ghz, works very well. Cable manufacturers do the same, don't think any of them produces wire...
Use Neotech UP-OCC copper or silver, or tinned copper (vintage wire galore), you'll easily spend the same 50-100 $ but you'll learn a lot and likely end up with a better cable/sound.


----------



## PLGA

marcelnl said:


> make one, it's super simple. See if you can get screw fasten type USB connectors (I haven't found them yet so if you run across some let me know). I'm using plated solder on DIY USB connectors, find some decent cable and insulator, tinker around with different cables (go crazy) some twisting and shielding. I'm currently using a piece of CAT8.1 ethernet cable, good for up to 2 Ghz, works very well. Cable manufacturers do the same, don't think any of them produces wire...
> Use Neotech UP-OCC copper or silver, or tinned copper (vintage wire galore), you'll easily spend the same 50-100 $ but you'll learn a lot and likely end up with a better cable/sound.



Well, I don't know if I have the skills nor the nerve to do it!


----------



## marcelnl

try it, low cost low risk (test the cable wiring with a MM or on a cheap 'sacrificial' device to avoid mixing up connections)


----------



## Thenewguy007

PLGA said:


> Thank you.
> 
> What other USB cable around 50 to 150 bucks would you recomend besides this one?
> 
> What about you guys? wich one would you recomend?



This is probably the best bang for your buck USB cable you can buy
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aucharm-Hi...-Plated-Audio-USB-Cable-Quality/274537938042?


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## FredA

PLGA said:


> Thank you.
> 
> What other USB cable around 50 to 150 bucks would you recomend besides this one?
> 
> What about you guys? wich one would you recomend?


None if your usb source is not silent and well clocked. I would try onother less expensive nimak otherwise: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Nimak-Audio...118830?hash=item1cdafd516e:g:nzYAAOSw5DxdnNvQ


----------



## FredA

The Nimak Black has recovered and is better than ever. Splendid cable. It is worth it.


----------



## macrog

I am absolutely loving 3.933 Firmware. Gorgeously organic and emotionally connected. Blissful. I thought Firmware 76 was going to be the best so had my DI-HE shipped with it but  it just didn't connect with me. 

I am hugely impressed with the DI-HE. It is the nicest digital frontend I have ever heard 

I think the Audio-gd DI-HE is the biggest bargain in high end audio.


----------



## PLGA

FredA said:


> if your usb source is not silent and well clocked.



How do I know that? 

To me, my system sounds like never before. Every little aspect of the sound is incredible and, eventhough I don't have a master clock, I have a lot of gear on my digital rig and all of it helped to improve the sound.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Nov 11, 2020)

FredA said:


> The Nimak Black has recovered and is better than ever. Splendid cable. It is worth it.



Nimak purple is the best USB cable I ever heard and I have heard some of the very best.
The reference Nimak power cables are even better and have had a gigantic effect on my system.




macrog said:


> I am absolutely loving 3.933 Firmware. Gorgeously organic and emotionally connected. Blissful. I thought Firmware 76 was going to be the best so had my DI-HE shipped with it but it just didn't connect with me.
> 
> I am hugely impressed with the DI-HE. It is the nicest digital frontend I have ever heard
> 
> I think the Audio-gd DI-HE is the biggest bargain in high end audio.




AGREED!!!!!  Every time I switch to 4.75 or 4.76 just for fun- I am immediately struck by how soft their presentation is relative to 3.933; just way to relaxed for me.  I like high energy....= 3.933


----------



## jimmychan

macrog said:


> I am absolutely loving 3.933 Firmware. Gorgeously organic and emotionally connected. Blissful. I thought Firmware 76 was going to be the best so had my DI-HE shipped with it but  it just didn't connect with me.
> 
> I am hugely impressed with the DI-HE. It is the nicest digital frontend I have ever heard
> 
> I think the Audio-gd DI-HE is the biggest bargain in high end audio.



You are right!   I had no hesitation to buy two DI-HE.


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> How do I know that?
> 
> To me, my system sounds like never before. Every little aspect of the sound is incredible and, eventhough I don't have a master clock, I have a lot of gear on my digital rig and all of it helped to improve the sound.


Do you use a usb reclocker or anything that makes usb better, as opposed to taking it directly from a maintream computer? If so, the usb cable is worth upgrading. And going for the Black is a very good idea. 

This cable gave me at least half, if not more,  of what going from the u16 to the di20he gave me. Pretty unbelievable.


----------



## FredA

macrog said:


> I am absolutely loving 3.933 Firmware. Gorgeously organic and emotionally connected. Blissful. I thought Firmware 76 was going to be the best so had my DI-HE shipped with it but  it just didn't connect with me.
> 
> I am hugely impressed with the DI-HE. It is the nicest digital frontend I have ever heard
> 
> I think the Audio-gd DI-HE is the biggest bargain in high end audio.


Going to it was a big upgrade. I though the u16 was very good but it sounds like a toy in comparison. I still recommend the u16 cause of the price/performance ratio. The He is almost 4 times the money, but still a great bargain given how superb it is.


----------



## Oepsie

Got my OXCO clock a couple of weeks ago and have experimented with it a bit. Annoyingly, the 12 volt LPS has a big impact on the sound and performance of the clock.. was hoping that it was not affected as much by the LPS running the clock.

Brought my Paul Hynes SR4T LPS to my friends system (not possible to compare at home because it is used for my streamer ), and the difference to his 100$ LPS was irritatingly big (same DI-20 and same clock)  Sound was more natural, more smooth, more life-like. Actually, exactly the same difference, the LPS provides through the streamer.

Had hoped that the impact of the LPS on the external clock was smaller and that I could get away with buying a cheaper one..


----------



## JaMo

The LPS is equal important as the XO itself. Buy an ultra silent LPS from ebay or ali
/J


----------



## PLGA

Hi guys
It seems that some of you are fan of Nimak USB cables.

What other cables have you compared the Nimak with?  What about brands more known like Audioquest, Wireworld, Cardas, Kimber, etc? I know sometimes these can be overpriced, but have you compared them to Nimak cables?


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Hi guys
> It seems that some of you are fan of Nimak USB cables.
> 
> What other cables have you compared the Nimak with?  What about brands more known like Audioquest, Wireworld, Cardas, Kimber, etc? I know sometimes these can be overpriced, but have you compared them to Nimak cables?



No high-end cable, except the valab, which is a value item

Supra
Valab/ms audio silver (150$), most expensive
Ebay silver (80$)
Audio sensibility impact se
Excelsior two-trunk assembled by a-b system.hk
Oyaide Elec d

The Nimak is so much above, it's the only one to make a big difference in my setup.


----------



## ToddRaymond

I like my (cryo'd) Oyaide d+ Class S v2 more than the Audioquest Carbon it replaced.  A really great value, as far as I can tell.

I got a great price on a Wireworld Platinum 7 HDMI, and would've liked to have eventually grabbed the now-discontinued USB version.  Sadly, instead of having 23 awg conductors, the new '8 series' top Wireworld OCC silver USB uses 28 awg conductors.  Audio Sensibility has Neotech OCC silver 22 awg rectangular (PTFE insulated) wire.  I'm considering making my own using those conductors for the signal (and likely round OCC copper for the the power).


----------



## FredA

The Nimak Black uses 18awg occ silver for data.


----------



## Thenewguy007

PLGA said:


> Hi guys
> It seems that some of you are fan of Nimak USB cables.
> 
> What other cables have you compared the Nimak with?  What about brands more known like Audioquest, Wireworld, Cardas, Kimber, etc? I know sometimes these can be overpriced, but have you compared them to Nimak cables?




There is a massive thread on USB cable comparisons over at Audiophilestyle

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/14124-usb-cable-comparisons/?tab=comments#comment-192964

They went through all the high end & boutique brands & a lot of the talk at the end was for the cheaper more affordable stuff.


----------



## Toni-Mang

@Thenewguy007, thank you for the link.
It is always the same game...
I have a AQ Coffee USB Cable, and i am happy with it. Now my first view in the link leads me to a new cable desire...
I think i will give the Nimak black a try, or i will build one myselve...


----------



## marcelnl

Nimak is using 18AWG for USB? WOW that seems serious overkill, are you sure they did not measure the strand with insulation on it? Having made loads of interlinks and having done lots of 'research' reading that someone is using 18Awg for digital audio is a surprise to me (well in a USB cable that apparently sounds good). For analog interlinks 18Awg is far too thick IMO (unless you need very very long runs), the optimum is a lot closer to 20, for digital 22-26.

DIYing is perfectly possible for interlinks, get some good connectors, good solder (prefer screw fastener connectors) and some decent wire, play a lot with cable geometry and insulation and listen and then play some more with dampening vibration and shielding. I can guarantee that many high end cables are made the same way, or even simply use pre made cable (in a custom outer layer) that was auditioned.
Interlink prices seemingly go through the roof but you have to keep in mind that distributors and resellers take a nice percentage (needed to stay in business), and there is taxes etc.Way back when we sold our interlinks commercially the cost of goods was close to 200 euro/meter retail price was close to 1000, factoring in all the auditioning and testing the retail price should have been like three to four times higher.


----------



## FredA (Nov 12, 2020)

marcelnl said:


> Nimak is using 18AWG for USB? WOW that seems serious overkill, are you sure they did not measure the strand with insulation on it? Having made loads of interlinks and having done lots of 'research' reading that someone is using 18Awg for digital audio is a surprise to me (well in a USB cable that apparently sounds good). For analog interlinks 18Awg is far too thick IMO (unless you need very very long runs), the optimum is a lot closer to 20, for digital 22-26.
> 
> DIYing is perfectly possible for interlinks, get some good connectors, good solder (prefer screw fastener connectors) and some decent wire, play a lot with cable geometry and insulation and listen and then play some more with dampening vibration and shielding. I can guarantee that many high end cables are made the same way, or even simply use pre made cable (in a custom outer layer) that was auditioned.
> Interlink prices seemingly go through the roof but you have to keep in mind that distributors and resellers take a nice percentage (needed to stay in business), and there is taxes etc.Way back when we sold our interlinks commercially the cost of goods was close to 200 euro/meter retail price was close to 1000, factoring in all the auditioning and testing the retail price should have been like three to four times higher.


The Nimak seems totally hand-made and the price is well justified considering the silver contents. 18awg is what is claimed and is consitent with the claimed resistance of 0.0124ohm/m (could be a bit bigger than 18awg). And he states 48pF/m.

Geometry is very important and has to be very uniform. Shielding too of course. The guy is assembling the cable from bulk wire as far as i can tell.


----------



## marcelnl

I won't argue price, if anything it's far too cheap for the work going into developing a cable, the materials and making it! Thanks for confirming sizes! There are several ways to reach low impedance and capacitance so those numbers do not necessarily mean anything for cable geometry.


----------



## FredA

Yes, there are many design approaches. Minimizing resistance is  a good idea. But not mandatory if capacitance and inductance can be relatively lower with another design. The guy has a patent pending for his geometry, he states.SO he may have found a superior recipe.


----------



## rsbrsvp

marcelnl said:


> Nimak is using 18AWG for USB? WOW that seems serious overkill, are you sure they did not measure the strand with insulation on it? Having made loads of interlinks and having done lots of 'research' reading that someone is using 18Awg for digital audio is a surprise to me (well in a USB cable that apparently sounds good). For analog interlinks 18Awg is far too thick IMO (unless you need very very long runs), the optimum is a lot closer to 20, for digital 22-26.




I think my Nimak Purple uses 16awg.  Could be 18awg and I am just not remembering.


----------



## Toni-Mang

Off topic, but after this discussion I ordered the Nimak USB BLACK Mk2:
...with additional mylar shield, 18 AWG *guides* in pure soft silver 6N, 3 x shielded, Signal and power leads are shielded separately with high alu mylar foil and then finally shielded with a thick pure copper braid...
we will see (hear), but i will not touch the vodka HDMI cable for now...


----------



## FredA

Toni-Mang said:


> Off topic, but after this discussion I ordered the Nimak USB BLACK Mk2:
> ...with additional mylar shield, 18 AWG *guides* in pure soft silver 6N, 3 x shielded, Signal and power leads are shielded separately with high alu mylar foil and then finally shielded with a thick pure copper braid...
> we will see (hear), but i will not touch the vodka HDMI cable for now...


I am look forward to your comments.  With mine (0.65m), the first 5-10 hours were so so, the next 20 were great, then i lost some bass, than it can back 20-30 hours later. I don't think you will regret it.


----------



## marcelnl

this is the spec for the battery Y USB cable, going for 6xx $ on th ebay:
Technical characteristics:



Conductor Section the cable contains 4 section of total 18 AWG litz wire:



Section A : 18 AWG of 1 mm

Section B: 18 AWG mixed of 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm





Section C : 18 AWG of 1 mm Section D: 18 AWG mixed of 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm





• Power conductor: Pure Copper 6N 99,9999%

• Section: 2.5 mm / 13 AWG x 2



• Inner Insulation: Teflon tube / Cotton sleeve

• Outer insulation Special-grade high-density polyethylen


• Quarter layer shield 4 x thick pure copper braid

• Connectors: Silver-plated USB series Connectors


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

Once happily set my DI20HE with 3.993 fw, and lived with total satisfaction with my auralic streamer feeding it via USB, I2S out to R7HE for long weeks, today I put a cd in my audio note AN CDT2 (rca output to DI20HE) and it produced a horribly distorted digital sound.
Fear...is my beloved cd broken?!? Naah...I switched the cable directly to the DAC and everything works fine.
So I'm starting to suspect that "that" firmware can have some problem on s/pdif input. Anyone had similar problems? I will revert to some of 4.07x family fw to try, maybe tomorrow...


----------



## FredA

Il Cuffiotto said:


> Once happily set my DI20HE with 3.993 fw, and lived with total satisfaction with my auralic streamer feeding it via USB, I2S out to R7HE for long weeks, today I put a cd in my audio note AN CDT2 (rca output to DI20HE) and it produced a horribly distorted digital sound.
> Fear...is my beloved cd broken?!? Naah...I switched the cable directly to the DAC and everything works fine.
> So I'm starting to suspect that "that" firmware can have some problem on s/pdif input. Anyone had similar problems? I will revert to some of 4.07x family fw to try, maybe tomorrow...


I have glitches. Very good sound but popping noises every 3 minutes. I notified Kingwa.


----------



## mudhole

I have the same issue since I got the Di20. Spdif to i2s has no sound under 3.99, 4.07beta and new 4.076. works with noise  under 3.93 and new 3.993.  it works under 3.32 and 4.075 without issue. For the USB to i2s the 4.076 has the best sound in my system, the second is 3.993.  Now, I start to rip all my CD collection to digital, it's a hard job.

I hope Kingwa will still work on the firmware to fix this issue.


----------



## FredA

mudhole said:


> I have the same issue since I got the Di20. Spdif to i2s has no sound under 3.99, 4.07beta and new 4.076. works with noise  under 3.93 and new 3.993.  it works under 3.32 and 4.075 without issue. For the USB to i2s the 4.076 has the best sound in my system, the second is 3.993.  Now, I start to rip all my CD collection to digital, it's a hard job.
> 
> I hope Kingwa will still work on the firmware to fix this issue.


The more people complain, the better the chances he fixes it soon. 3.933 is a popular choice.


----------



## PLGA

FredA said:


> The more people complain, the better the chances he fixes it soon. 3.933 is a popular choice.



I use 3.933 with USB from my W4S RUR and it works flawlessly.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

I'm afraid not many people still use a cd player to feed DI-20...ripping is easy but time consuming.
Funny that working hard with a lot more complex and critical connections, super high resolution, and with the results that all of us know...the simple 16/44.1 spdif has issues! I really hope Kingwa will fix it. 
Well, I'm sure he will.


----------



## myshark

Il Cuffiotto said:


> I'm afraid not many people still use a cd player to feed DI-20...ripping is easy but time consuming.
> Funny that working hard with a lot more complex and critical connections, super high resolution, and with the results that all of us know...the simple 16/44.1 spdif has issues! I really hope Kingwa will fix it.
> Well, I'm sure he will.


I am using both DI20 input and i2s n aes output. No problems.
Use only rotel cdp coax out to di20. Sounds  better than direct to dac. No problem for 3.933,4.075 n 4.076, all parallel mode. No prblem also for 12s.

Earlier there are when in serial mode, now no more. Maybe due to burn in and serial mode. Now i don use serial only parallel.

Hope it helps.


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 15, 2020)

s/pdif is likely much harder to get right due to it's age and it's handicaps due to that age in the 'modern world electronics".

At the moment the DIY USB cable is breaking in, sounds promising without any shielding for now.


----------



## masakun

3つの出力（rca（STD）、aes、i2s）のどれが最適ですか？


----------



## Thenewguy007

masakun said:


> 3つの出力（rca（STD）、aes、i2s）のどれが最適ですか？



i2s.


----------



## masakun

[QUOTE = "Thenewguy007、投稿：15978225、メンバー：369516"]
i2s。
[/これ]
ありがとうございました！


----------



## rsbrsvp

I wonder if Kingwa would ever think of putting a built in computer and SSD into the DI-20 so it can be an all-in-one source component and we don't need a computer to feed it.


----------



## tumpux

The user interface will be a nightmare. 
Audio-GD is not there yet in term of user interface.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I hear.  The computer really makes a difference though.

I just went through my mac mini and cut several processes which slow down the computer and it resulted in a substantially more transparent sound.  I was amazed how much of a difference it could make and I keep thinking to myself- if I had a computer which cut pretty much every cpu hogging process- I bet sonic improvement would be great.

A computer is just not ideal because the operating system is getting in the way.


----------



## tumpux (Nov 16, 2020)

Maybe you want to give Daphile a try. It’s a Linux distro with minimum background processes. 
I like it, soundwise..

However the user interface is not as polished as I want it to be.


----------



## Zachik

tumpux said:


> Maybe you want to give Daphile a try. It’s a Linux distro with minimum background processes.
> I like it, soundwise..
> 
> However the user interface is not as polished as I want it to be.


I think Volumio is a better choice. Although, some of the features require a subscription payment...
More polished UI than Daphile for sure!


----------



## Toni-Mang

Got the nimak black usb cale today and swapped it against the aq coffee. To early to give a statement yet, the di20he takes too long to boot, to get a fast comparison.


----------



## sajunky (Nov 16, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> I just went through my mac mini and cut several processes which slow down the computer and it resulted in a substantially more transparent sound.  I was amazed how much of a difference it could make and I keep thinking to myself- if I had a computer which cut pretty much every cpu hogging process- I bet sonic improvement would be great.


It happens only when you do extensive sound processing. If you use bit-perfect path, transparency do not change. There is an option on MAC for the driver exclusive access and it needs an application to use it, similar to Windows WASAPI exclusive mode. Any critical delays in system drivers will demonstrate rather as breaking a stream for a fraction of second.

Transparency is reduced when noise affect transmission on the receiving side. Both MACs and PCs, laptops or desktops are great sources of ground loops. Configuring OS for low latency do not affect ground loops, it is a hardware feature.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I bought fidelizer pro and I let it do all it's tricks - can't say I hear the diff.

I got to try a Keces P8 single 8amp 19v tap.  It's more expressive than the dual tap (4amp+4amp).  I'm amazed how my 2017 r2r7 keeps rising to the occasion - it's by no means my weakest link.  And like shark I've been spares all the do20he issues everyone is reporting.  Still loving 4.075.


----------



## FredA (Nov 16, 2020)

Toni-Mang said:


> Off topic, but after this discussion I ordered the Nimak USB BLACK Mk2:
> ...with additional mylar shield, 18 AWG *guides* in pure soft silver 6N, 3 x shielded, Signal and power leads are shielded separately with high alu mylar foil and then finally shielded with a thick pure copper braid...
> we will see (hear), but i will not touch the vodka HDMI cable for now...


The magic i had after 10 hours is coming back fully (90%) after about 140 hours. Occ silver needs extensive burn-in. I am not surprised.

This cable improves everything, and even brings an extra layer of texture, i hope it works for you too.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I hear.  The computer really makes a difference though.
> 
> I just went through my mac mini and cut several processes which slow down the computer and it resulted in a substantially more transparent sound.  I was amazed how much of a difference it could make and I keep thinking to myself- if I had a computer which cut pretty much every cpu hogging process- I bet sonic improvement would be great.
> 
> A computer is just not ideal because the operating system is getting in the way.


You  could give the usbridge signature a try. The simplest thing is to keep you mac and feed it through upnp.


----------



## FredA (Nov 16, 2020)

I power mine with the simplebest psu. With the nimak usb, i am in heaven with this setup.


----------



## FredA

Wynnytsky said:


> I bought fidelizer pro and I let it do all it's tricks - can't say I hear the diff.
> 
> I got to try a Keces P8 single 8amp 19v tap.  It's more expressive than the dual tap (4amp+4amp).  I'm amazed how my 2017 r2r7 keeps rising to the occasion - it's by no means my weakest link.  And like shark I've been spares all the do20he issues everyone is reporting.  Still loving 4.075.


These da7s are really superior to any chip solution. When the planets align, it's something else. You get liquid treble, convincing imaging/soundstaging, and deep bass.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> You could give the usbridge signature a try. The simplest thing is to keep you mac and feed it through upnp.




How does the usbridge negate the negative effects of OSX in my mac.  If my mac is feeding the usbridge it will feed it damaged sound just like it does to my ISO regen.

Could you please explain how it works......?


----------



## Jandu

rsbrsvp said:


> How does the usbridge negate the negative effects of OSX in my mac.  If my mac is feeding the usbridge it will feed it damaged sound just like it does to my ISO regen.
> 
> Could you please explain how it works......?


USBridge is a raspberry pi based SBC and does run a linux/ raspian OS based system. Compared to Win or Apple based system, it is much cleaner, assuming one has a good power supply. Fred is using a SimpleBest power supply


----------



## rsbrsvp

How do I get music to it?  Can I feed it with my mac using iTunes?


----------



## Jandu

rsbrsvp said:


> How do I get music to it?  Can I feed it with my mac using iTunes?



USB STORAGE or NAS or microsd card


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have never used a streamer and do not understand how it works.

Is the following a possibility?  If not please correct me.

All my music is stored on my mac mini.  I use iTunes to play my music and wish to continue to do so.

Can I connect my mac mini by ethernet cable to the usbridge and then the usbridge by way of usb to the DI20HE and continue to control my music collection through my mac mini as if the usbridge is non-existent?

If not- please explain how it works......

Thanks to everyone.


----------



## marcelnl

You'd be adding a box to overcome issues with the OS and mini mac but still use the Mini mac and it's OS for everything, there would be no gain.
What a streamer does is what you now have your computer do, feed digital audio stream to your DAC. If you have an old computer lying around you could try a Daphile install and see if you like it, I have been playing with a heavily trimmed down W based computer running an audiophile player, then switched to an Intel NUC fed by a LPS running Daphile as OS and never looked back, SQ is so much better even when the interface is bit of a handicap (mostly so when adjusting settings). Daphile is controlled by a Tablet or your mini mac via a web interface. 
Daphile allows playing your content from physical storage in your network, youtube and Tidal plugins are available yet I'm not sure you can link it to iTunes libraries.


----------



## Oepsie

In my system, I use an SOtM SMS-200 with a Paul Hynes SR4T LPS as streamer (roon end point) and a laptop as server (roon core). Both connected to the same network, outputting to the DI-20. Tried out a lot of configurations with the network. Currently, the sms-200 is cabled to a google wifi router and the laptop is connected wireless to the same router.

My initial thought was to connect the streamer directly to the laptop using auto negotiation and ethernet cable. This worked but I like the sound better with the google router in between. Tried cabling of the laptop to the same router but that generates a bit of noise coming from the laptop, crossing the router into the streamer and I prefer the sound of the laptop connected through wireless. Potentially then, the laptop can be moved to another room also, away from the hifi system.

To me, the key is noise and how to avoid it. Experimented with optical network as well but was annoyed about how important the LPS on receiver converter is and actually preferred cat8 cabling to the sms-200 streamer in stead. But other preferences might disagree 

With the sms-200, I also tried local files played through LMS but that sounded awful compared to room. Tried tidal through LMS as well but also sounded very poor compared to roon. But will need to investigate further on this issue and how to configure the sms-200 with other connection types (because roon is so expensive  ).


----------



## rsbrsvp

This all sound so complex to me.

Has anyone developed a program where one can just press a button and the program will disable every single component of OSX or Windows except what is absolutely necessary to play music? That should solve the problem of operating systems hogging up cpu....


----------



## marcelnl

same here, Daphile running on the NUC is connected via Cat8.1 and a modded switch (both on LPS) using a Jcat USB output on yet another LPS, and control is done using a tablet or laptop via wifi.


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 17, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> This all sound so complex to me.
> 
> Has anyone developed a program where one can just press a button and the program will disable every single component of OSX or Windows except what is absolutely necessary to play music? That should solve the problem of operating systems hogging up cpu....


someone did Fidelizer....and it is not enough...I have been using Fidelizer with a now obsolete audiophile player program (pureplayer) designed to basically the same thing, long story short,  Daphile sounds better.
( I compared two identical laptops, one running Daphile versus one running W10 with fidelizer and PurePlayer (which sounds better than the usual suspects such as foobar etc)

it all may sound difficult, if ease of use is important I's susggest to buy (any) decent streamer, f.e.the Sonnet streamer (in fact a raspberry with some bits and bobs), exchange money for ease of use.

edit: and in fact it IS somewhat of a pain to get going, once it works though, the reward is there, great Sound Quality....IMO folks readily flashing the firmware of a Di should not have to shy off this path, I dare predict the gain in SQ is higher than most expect at close to zero cost.


----------



## Oepsie (Nov 17, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> This all sound so complex to me.
> 
> Has anyone developed a program where one can just press a button and the program will disable every single component of OSX or Windows except what is absolutely necessary to play music? That should solve the problem of operating systems hogging up cpu....


But the problem is not just processes running wild in the OS. It is also (and more importantly) a matter of quality of the PSU/LPS. A pc/Mac by itself is noisy. Needs some work with the PSU(s). I got a nice improvement introducing a dedicated streamer in stead of playing directly from the laptop. Got even better with a Paul Hynes LPS. Much more 'natural' sounding, not digital artefacts/harshness. Difficult to explain. Didn't think that I was troubled in these aspects, but hearing the improvement certainly changed that perception 

Before the streamer, I tried fidelizer and JPlay in various configurations for my windows laptop but missed some convenience, and the difference were quite small. Roon sounded better but the difference was still small. That changed with the streamer.

The first streamer I tried in my system was an Innous Zen mk3 that I borrowed from a friend as an initial experiment to find out what a streamer could do. And holy f... the improvement was BIG. Certainly a one-box solution I might add but too expensive for me - so I have played a lot with lesser alternatives and experimented on how to improve my more cost-effective sms-200 streamer.

I understand that you feel overwhelmed as there are many approaches to finding a nice-sounding streamer.


----------



## marcelnl

PSU/LPS matters big time, however; a laptop running on battery SHOULD be able to sound better than using main power, yet in my experiments it did not improve SQ one bit. 
A major contributor to noise in a laptop is the screen, switching that off does help...but then you need another device to run the player proggie


----------



## Oepsie

marcelnl said:


> PSU/LPS matters big time, however; a laptop running on battery SHOULD be able to sound better than using main power, yet in my experiments it did not improve SQ one bit.
> A major contributor to noise in a laptop is the screen, switching that off does help...but then you need another device to run the player proggie


I had similar experience regarding battery vs. mains power - could not tell the difference. The laptop is noisy in itself.


----------



## rsbrsvp

THere is no way an noise i my mac mini as reaching my ears.

I have a ISO regen in there with a world class LPS and a DI-20HE which equals double galvanic isolation.

Apple just came out with a new mac mini wit M1 chip which they clam is 300% faster than any intel chip they ever used.   I wonder if in this case even OSX processes may be relatively or even ompletely insignificant relative to this enormous leap in CPU power???


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 17, 2020)

processor speed is largely irrelevant to SQ, that is Daphile powers down the ICU to maximale SQ...
(disclaimer; if you want to do DSP/brute Fir, DSD at high rate you may need more processing power, for redbook you do not need anything fancy)

Tou your claim that any noise is unable to reach your ears.....I'll say nothing other than ; just give it a try, and judge for yourself. My thoughts are that prevention is better and easier than curing after the fact. Even when you buy a used NUC the cost are likely far lower than rolling a USB cable.


----------



## Oepsie

rsbrsvp said:


> THere is no way an noise i my mac mini as reaching my ears.
> 
> I have a ISO regen in there with a world class LPS and a DI-20HE which equals double galvanic isolation.
> 
> ...


Sorry to say but in my opinion, that is definitely not the case. I've tried an ISO regen and noise from the source definitely still gets through. Tried it with both the Innous and my laptop, and still the streamer presented a major improvement. But it's ok, if you don't _think_ that a streamer makes a difference. My advice would still be to try it for yourself


----------



## FredA (Nov 17, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> How do I get music to it?  Can I feed it with my mac using iTunes?


Using Audirvana in  iTune mode on your mac (it then attaches to itunes to perform playback, itunes still does the rest,  browsing, etc), you can send music over ethernet to the usbridge, which can be configured and seen as a upnp node under Volumio. Audirvana will see it as such. This way, the mac still reads the file, decode them and send the music to the usbridge. The usbridge clocks the music and send it to the dac. Compared to a mac, it is very silent electically.

You can give it a try with a simple Rasberry pi kit that cost under 100$. The usbridge with a good psu and dc cable is going for 400-450$.

Another affordable way to test this setup is to order the SimpleBest with a Rasberry 4b inside (pre-loaded with Volumio, which is the easiest to use) . If ever you order the SimlpeBest, request a dc output (5.5/2.1 or 5.5/2.5 connector), it will allow using it with a usbridge which is the logical upgrade option.

I am using the usbridge as a standalone player. The best sound quality possible is when it is used just as a music receiver like i described above.

With the usbridge, some hands-on is needed. Mine came with a loose stand-off inside. Just had to take the cover off and screw it back on. My friend got it with a loose grounding terminal, which was resolved the same way.

Setting up volumio can be dfficult. The easiest way to access it initially is to plug the.usbridge/rpi4b to your router, then to access your router to determne its ip address, then to type this ip address as url in Safari. From there, it's a GUI and rather easy.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Oepsie said:


> Sorry to say but in my opinion, that is definitely not the case. I've tried an ISO regen and noise from the source definitely still gets through. Tried it with both the Innous and my laptop, and still the streamer presented a major improvement. But it's ok, if you don't _think_ that a streamer makes a difference. My advice would still be to try it for yourself




I DO believe a streamer makes a difference.  I see much testimony to this from many people.

My problem is I use apple music service.  No other service has the type of music I listen to as I have checked Tidal and Quobuz.

So I need a streamer that works with apple music.  Can' find one....    I saw something on google about "airplay" making it possible.?????


----------



## FredA (Nov 17, 2020)

rsbrsvp said:


> I DO believe a streamer makes a difference.  I see much testimony to this from many people.
> 
> My problem is I use apple music service.  No other service has the type of music I listen to as I have checked Tidal and Quobuz.
> 
> So I need a streamer that works with apple music.  Can' find one....    I saw something on google about "airplay" making it possible.?????


Indeed. Airplay is a possibility i forgot to mention. It is supported by the usbridge/rpi4b under volumio. A friend of mine uses just that with great success. I keep mentioning the usbridge but in fact i mean the usbridge signature.


----------



## sajunky

Oepsie said:


> But the problem is not just processes running wild in the OS. It is also (and more importantly) a matter of quality of the PSU/LPS. A pc/Mac by itself is noisy. Needs some work with the PSU(s). I got a nice improvement introducing a dedicated streamer in stead of playing directly from the laptop.


I already put my comment on that, but the respondent still do not understand. Cleaning OS processes only makes sense when using MAC or PC as a mixing/mastering studio where lot of processing is done. For streaming a typical setup is sufficient, but a basic configuring work is required to achieve bit-perfect transfer (I neeed to repeat it again).

As for avoiding ground loops I like Raspberry Pi solutions that makes it network streamer. Did anyone try USB to I2S converter? It is much easier to make galvanic isolation on the I2S side than USB and I know people using such converter as isolator to feed R28 DAC directly that do not have any galvanic isolation.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> Indeed. Airplay is a possibility i forgot to mention. It is supported by the usbridge/rpi4b under volumio. A friend of mine uses just that with great success. I keep mentioning the usbridge but in fact i mean the usbridge signature.



Can I use iTunes and control everything through my mac mini using airplay?

Would your friend mind if I contact him to get exact details how to go about this process?

Thanks Fred...


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Can I use iTunes and control everything through my mac mini using airplay?
> 
> Would your friend mind if I contact him to get exact details how to go about this process?
> 
> Thanks Fred...


I can tell you all about it, i explained it to my friend. The basics are just that your send the audio to an airplay receiver, a usbridge or a raspberry pie in this case. 

When buying the device, having volumio pre-installed is possible in some cases.  It is possible with the  SimpleBest and the usbridge sig.

When you receive the device, your hook it up to your router. Find out its ip address. Type it as url in Safari. Follow the steps to configure it (you are guided through). If the di20he is plugged already, you can select it as your audio device. Once done, you can customize furthermore. Turn off functions you will not use. Adjust the size of the audio buffers, etc...Documention is available at volumio.org. Have a look.

PM me for further questions.


----------



## rsbrsvp

THANKS FRED.....


----------



## Articnoise

I have tried many different music player solutions over the years. From upgrading my PC with superior (USB and LAN card + LPS + special SATA cables and SSD / hard drives) + ultraRendu with good LPS to now Innuos Zenith mk3 all-in-one player.

If you have a tight budget, it's definitely worth upgrading some key components for audio in the computer you already have, but if you are looking for the best and have the money, a good dedicated player like the Zenith is very hard to beat IME. Why, one might ask? And the simple "truth" is that the end result is more than the individual parts and matching of different components, OS and shielding, clocks, regulates, PSU etc. is incredibly important and is something that has to be developed and tested for best result, just like with, DACs amps and speakers.

Bit perfect and bits is bits is not enough for understanding or obtaining SQ for people like us that has a DI20. Things like good Signal Integrity (SI), low leakage current, super low EMI/RFI, jitter and phase noise is together with ultra clean and fast power what’s make our gear or system to sound good.


----------



## sajunky

Articnoise said:


> Bit perfect and bits is bits is not enough for understanding or obtaining SQ for people like us that has a DI20. Things like good Signal Integrity (SI), low leakage current, super low EMI/RFI, jitter and phase noise is together with ultra clean and fast power what’s make our gear or system to sound good.


Bit-perfect setup will not help users of DI-20 understand things (I can't find a reason why it would). Pegasus users are busy with replacing fuses with expensive "audiophile quality" parts. People with some levels of understanding wouldn't become Pegasus users in first place. You are right that bit-perfect setup is not sufficient in obtaining SQ. However it doesn't require any investment, it is the first step to do and ... is not an alternative.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> Bit-perfect setup will not help users of DI-20 understand things (I can't find a reason why it would)


What do you mean by this?


----------



## masakun

[QUOTE = "FredA、投稿：15980427、例：384686"]
惑星のダ7は、到かかももがあります。ます。
[/これ]
[QUOTE = "sajunky、Post：15982062、Me：528465"]イパーフェクトな到は、DI-20の議が物事をするのにありません（私はませんが、好きをすることを、できません）。ペガサスのステップハ、ぬを到な「刻ファン質」くに交換することそもそもペガサスのバージョンはなるは。SQをできません、ビットパーフェクトな割ありあり。 。
[/これ]
[QUOTE = "sajunky、投稿：15982062、メンバー：528465"]
ペガサスのユーザーは、ヒューズを高価な「オーディオファン品質」の部品に交換することに忙しい。ある程度の理解を持っている人は、そもそもペガサスのユーザーにはなりません。
[/これ]
By the way, what does dac use?


----------



## sajunky (Nov 18, 2020)

FredA said:


> What do you mean by this?


It means in a context. You should follow guidelines how to setup bit-perfect transfers on PC and it is done. When done properly you don't have to understand technical matters.

I was wondering why there is so much concern about quality of USB connection with DI-20, proposing number of workarounds when USB connection should theoretically work the best. In DI-20 it is done properly at the highest possible level. With a modified Amanero module PC clock is synchronised with a DI-20 internal clock. In such scenario there is no need for PLL, we get the lowest jitter possible. There is galvanic isolation, it means no ground loops, what else gives a problem?

I started to think that with a standard OS driver setup there is no assurance that USB port works in isochronous asynchronous mode, it is a mode DI-20 request from PC. When standard driver is used, negotiation may fall back to some other mode which is less reliable or jittered. Response on the forum to my call for setting up bit-perfect transfer gives me suspicion that this is a case. So lets start from setting up a proper driver that is designed specifically for audio transfers, it is a part of bit-perfect setup. WASAPI has two different modes: push and event. Only the later one should be used with DI-20. The other one is for synchronous transfers. Once it is done, we can discuss other solutions.


----------



## FredA (Nov 18, 2020)

sajunky said:


> It means in a context. You should follow guidelines how to setup bit-perfect transfers on PC and it is done. When done properly you don't have to understand technical matters.
> 
> I was wondering why there is so much concern about quality of USB connection with DI-20, proposing number of workarounds when USB connection should theoretically work the best. In DI-20 it is done properly at the highest possible level. With a modified Amanero module PC clock is synchronised with a DI-20 internal clock. In such scenarion there is no need for PLL, we get the lowest jitter possible. There is galvanic isolation, it means no ground loops, what else gives a problem?
> 
> I started to think that with a standard OS driver setup there is no assurance that USB port works in isochronous asynchronous mode, it is a mode DI-20 request from PC. When standard driver is used, negotiation may fall back to some other mode which is less reliable or jittered. Response on the forum to my call for setting up bit-perfect transfer gives me suspicion that this is a case. So lets start from setting up a proper driver that is designed specifically for audio transfers, it is a part of bit-perfect setup. WASAPI has two different modes: push and event. Only the later one should be used with DI-20. The other one is for synchronous transfers. Once it is done, we can discuss other solutions.


Some say when the usb transfer is jittery, there is more back and forth between the dcc and computer and this causes noise. Another factor is usb audio has no error correction. Therefore another possibility is this back and forth can cause transmission error. In theory, with the asynch protocol, all jitter should be removed.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Can someone please giveme the link for the amanero 384 driver for the DI
Thanks...


----------



## marcelnl

is the first hit on google not good? http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/Amanero/AmaneroEN.htm


----------



## sajunky (Nov 18, 2020)

FredA said:


> Some say when the usb transfer is jittery, there is more back and forth between the dcc and computer and this causes noise. Another factor is usb audio has no error correction. Therefore another possibility is this back and forth can cause transmission error. In theory, with the asynch protocol, all jitter should be removed.


Some explanation. USB audio is transfered using isochronous mode that guarantee bandwith. Each frame is embedded with CRC enabling error detection, so the receiver (in USB terminology called 'sink') can silence the output (avoiding pop-ups), but unlike other USB modes there is no retransmission on errors. So you are right: cable quality is important.

Jitter amount depends... There are three isochronous modes:

1. Synchronous. USB source delivers master clock. This is the worst case for jitter. Receipient has only option to follow the source clock (PLL) and/or resample. Unfortunately it is default mode of the generic driver. If the application requesting USB transfer do not set up end points correctly, request for asynchronous (#2 below) mode is ignored. It happens the same on Windows and Linux.

2. Asynchronous. Receiver's clock becomes a master. There is no specific USB source clock rate, new packets are sent only on the request of the receiver. It is the best case for jitter and most of current USB interface chips support this mode.

3. Adaptive. This is similar to the synchronous mode, intended to improve jitter. PLL is required on the receiver. Many old good USB interface chips use this mode, but now with increased number of devices using asynchronous mode it is regarded obsolete.

Important mattter starts there: Amanero module do use asynchronous mode of course, but DI-20 is special. To achieve a minimum jitter there is no synchronisation between Amanero clock and DI-20 system clock. Amanero just use system clock. What happen when interface defaults to the synchronous mode? Is DI-20 firmware so clever to activate PLL, resampler, whatever - all this things that smooth the clock? When it doesn't say in the manual, it doesn't.

This is a question we need to address. Understanding how important is use of  WASAPI Event driver mode and the proper application that request USB transfer is a first step.


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 18, 2020)

and perhaps it's even more important/ as important to ask yourself if you want windows to handle all it needs to stay in the air AND your precious audio data. When I switched to Daphile (linux based) SQ jumped 'by a lot'.
(Latency is important)


----------



## Mix80

But most likely, most simply did not try ArcaOS (OS2) and the PM123 player as a source and UPNP render of digital audio via USB.


----------



## marcelnl

that OS is new to me nor do I know the Pm 123 player....did you compare it with f,e audiolinux or Daphile? interesting!


----------



## Mix80 (Nov 18, 2020)

I don't think there is a single person on this forum who knows about using OS/2 as an audio player.

I have experience using various Linux and windows builds:
Daphile-probably the first and easiest option to learn, has a classic sound of any Linux system, slightly seasoned with the softness of the LMS, on which it is actually built.
Volumio
SnakeOilOS
BlackOS
AudioLinux
RoonRock
HQPlayer (NAA)
...
Basically, all Linux systems have a common sound signature. The main focus on detail, at the expense of consistency and fusion of the canvas, there is also a certain amount of compression. Vocals are slightly constrained and not as natural as for example it is presented by Windows builds for audio using optimizations.

Under Windows, it is a little more difficult to download something that initially works and is ready. But the result of refining Windows for audio applications inspires me more. Yes, it is more difficult to figure out which parameter in the OS affects the aspect of sound, but initially the sound is just slightly slow and muddy. Unlike Linux, which even on a fully linear power supply manages to cut my ears.




OS/2... well.. this is not just another build of some OS you know. No... not even close.
Its core is written in IBM for military, space needs, and the banking sector, a long time ago, it was optimized and compiled in assembler, most drivers are written in low-level languages and work with hardware without layers of abstraction.

(By the way. Windows, from version NT 3.5 onwards, uses parts of the OS2 core at its core. )

now this OS is being brought up to modern standards by the ArcaNoae team under an IBM license.
I have it running on a fairly well-known Supermicro x10sba motherboard with full LPSU and surpasses such streamers as Soundaware D300REF, DCS Bridge, Auralic G2... The first I own myself, the second and third I took for a while.



I support the development of a free PM123 player for this OS, which allows you to play any type of file in any resolution, including DSD 1024. This player also allows you to control playback via the UPNP protocol, so that the computer can be used in headless mode.
For example, I use Jriver as a media server, it is installed on a separate computer, there is also a separate NAS server with music storage, and it is managed on a tablet via the iOS version of Jremote. I really like the functionality and convenience.

Currently, USB audio drivers allow you to connect converters based on XMOS, Amanero, PCM, and ARM architecture to the system. Almost all popular types of converters and DACs work with this OS without problems.
The developers of the Audio stack, free programmers, are not from the ArcaNoae staff, but they try to quickly make corrections to support new devices.

The main qualities of this OS include: Speed, accuracy in transmitting complex rhythms, Dynamic range (the ability to show the scene on a single canvas behind a precisely worked-out main image, a lot of nuances from the supporting parts and quiet sounds, without drawing attention to them). This OS is characterized by a General analogous presentation without signs of digital processing: listeners often note the similarity of the source on ArcaOS with the sound of the master tape, deep, slightly dark.


I apologize for the long post, I got carried away


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 18, 2020)

Analogue as signature sound sounds VERY interesting, I just upgraded to the last beta version of Daphile and am quite baffled by the improvememt in Sq it makes but I hear what you say....makes me want to audition that system. I probably would dedicate an SSd drive to it so I can easily swap and boot without settings going haywire in either system. Is there a community/site you recommend?


----------



## Mix80 (Nov 18, 2020)

At the moment. there are some limitations on hardware support in ArcaOS.
These restrictions are temporary, and the OS developers have committed to solving these problems in the next major release.
But, you need to know about this before you try anything.
1. While there is no UEFI support, this means that your motherboard must support Legacy Boot or CSM booting.
2. there is no full support for USB 3.0 controllers Yet. In General, the keyboard and mouse can work in USB 3.0 ports, but the USB Audio device will not be detected in 3.0 ports. A driver for XHCI controller is currently under development. as soon as it implements asynchronous mode, other developers from the USB Audio group will be able to adapt their stack version to XHCI.
In fact, everything is better than it seems, for example, in my motherboard, the USB3.0 port works with audio devices, I just don't include the XHCI controller in the BIOS and that's it.
These are all restrictions.
Oh, I forgot.. It should be understood that this OS only works on the x86 architecture.

And of course, you need to understand that the user community of this OS is not very large and no one will give their heads on the fact that ArcaOS will be successfully installed on any hardware.

I can only advise you to use not expensive, small ITX Intel motherboards on Atom processors for the experiment.
Like this one INTEL D2700MUD
The simpler the better.


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 19, 2020)

shall we splice off a thread for this endeavour? I'll have to see if my older NUC will do for this (it does support legacy boot), AND a big item for is whether my JCatt USB PCIe card is supported, other than that; slamming in another SDD drive and tinkering around with the OS to audition it is fun. Daphile recently released a new beta that sounds even better than before (needed to install it to get Tidal working again)

Thread started: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/arcos-operating-system.947583/


----------



## PLGA

Hello mates
I'm not really a tech guy, but I took care of I my digital rig so each part played a role (bigger or smaller) on upgrading the sound quality. I've spent time, effort and money (at least for my budget) to improve my digital rig as best as possible. 

By the way, thanks to some of you for the information shared. It helped a lot!

Here is my digital chain:

- Regular ADSL Modem (with no WiFi). The only gadget that is not HiFi and it doesn't make a difference I guess.
- Router Ubiquiti Networks Er-x-sfp 5 with a budget chinese LPS
- Uptone Etherregen with a budget chinese LPS.
- SOtM SMS200 Ultra Neo SE (used as Audinirvana end point) with a Swagman LPS.
- Audioquest Jitterbug
- Wyred4Sound RUR USB Reclocker
- Audio-GD DI-20
- Audio-GD R8 DAC

Well, I found what I believe is a VERY GOOD CHEAP alternative for those who can phisically assemble it. I guess it's like they say "There's no better USB cable like no USB cable at all"!!    

My USB cables between SMS200 and DI-20 "were" 0.4m Curious Evolved and 1m long DH Labs standard USB. 

I replaced the DH Labs one for a "USB A to B adapter" and things got better. More focused and better imaging, more detail/information, etc. Similar to what you get when you treat vibration and power (cleaner sound and more realism). And it only cost me about 3 bucks and save me from spending about U$S 200 to try a new USB cable to replace the DH Labs one!!!!!    Here are the pictures:








Here it is the chain: SMS200 > Jitterbug > USB adapter > W4S RUR > Curious cable > DI-20






Totally recomended!!!

By the way, I use vibrapods to isolate some of the gear. Also very good results for the price.


----------



## PLGA (Nov 19, 2020)

By the way, anyone here using Audinirvana on Windows 10 and a SMS-200 feeding a DI-20?

If so, is there an advice on how to set up Windows or Audinirvana regarding ASIO, WASAPI, clocks, etc?

As I have the RUR (Reclocker) in between I guess it wouldn't matter maybe. Am I correct?

By the way, I've found that the RUR did make a difference before the DI-20. Not huge, but noticeable and worthwile.

These digital concepts are not easy to understand and there are too many variables!


----------



## sajunky (Nov 19, 2020)

@PLGA. I can't help with Audinirvana, but Windows part of configuration is identical to the Foobar. It is a mandatory step to enable option "Allow exclusive access" in the audio device properties (Advanced tab). Otherwise application request for WASAPI exclusive access is denied. Also in the same place tick an option for high priority. All other tricky things belong to the application. One for sure: you have to select WASAPI as the output, not a Direct Sound nor a default sound device. Alternatively ASIO output (available if Amanero drivers are installed).

And thats all, I am confused with these jittery devices, I am sure you don't need any, just a quality USB cable (I put two ferrite clamps on both sides).


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 19, 2020)

I'm still more inclined to go Computer (on LPS)- precision clocked PCIe I2S bridge ou (on LPS)> I2S cable >DAC


----------



## Oepsie

PLGA said:


> Hello mates
> I'm not really a tech guy, but I took care of I my digital rig so each part played a role (bigger or smaller) on upgrading the sound quality. I've spent time, effort and money (at least for my budget) to improve my digital rig as best as possible.
> 
> By the way, thanks to some of you for the information shared. It helped a lot!
> ...


Nice setup! Have you tried without the jitterbug? I bought a jitterbyug myself when my laptop was connected directly to the usb-s/pdif converter. But when I bought my streamer and lps, the sound was better without it; with the streamer, the signal was improved to a level, that the jutterbug was giving a negative impact to the sound - a kind of veil effect, making the sound less dynamic and more dull sounding. Just a tip if you didn’t try without


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 20, 2020)

so, just finished connecting the SSD to a separate power supply, and finished my I2S cable and compared it to the blue jeans.
separate PSU for the SSD is gonna stay!!
DIY I2S cable too!

My seat is now 10 rows closer to the front, inky black background, better layering, soundstage, decay, attack, dynamics.

next is probably going to be the Pink Faun HEA I2S bridge, just not sure what the difference in performance numbers is between the two OXCO's they designed


----------



## masakun

[QUOTE = "marcelnl、投稿：15988511、メンバー：133115"]
それで、SSDを別の電源に接続し終えて、I2Sケーブルを完成させ、ブルージーンズと比較しました。
SSD用の別のPSUが残ります!!
DIY I2Sケーブルも！

私の席は今や正面に10列近く、真っ黒な背景、より良いレイヤー、サウンドステージ、ディケイ、アタック、ダイナミクスです。

次はおそらくPinkFaun HEA I2Sブリッジになるでしょうが、彼らが設計した2つのOXCOのパフォーマンス数値の違いが何であるかはわかりません。
[/見積もり]
DIY I2Sケーブルが見たいです！


----------



## marcelnl

I would love to be able to communicate in what appears to be Japanese, but I am unable to, can you use a translator?


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 20, 2020)

nothing much to see , I made it as planned ; 4 twisted pairs each in an EMI shield, used OFC copper in cotton.


----------



## masakun

申し訳ありませんが、ケーブルの写真を見たいのですが。


----------



## ikhuong

Hi fellow head-fi friends,

I downloaded http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm to download 
DI-20V4.076 (Oct. 2020) and followed this guide http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R8/R8updateEN.htm

However, after firmware upgrade completed, my DI-20 USB input is no longer working, my Nvidia Shield TV is no longer to detect USB sound output and Macbook Pro could not see DI-20 as well, Coaxial input is working OK. 

any advice? 

Previously the USB input was very unstable and I needed to reboot DI-20 everytime I turn on Shield TV

Appreciate your advice,
Thanks,


----------



## myshark

ikhuong said:


> Hi fellow head-fi friends,
> 
> I downloaded http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm to download
> DI-20V4.076 (Oct. 2020) and followed this guide http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R8/R8updateEN.htm
> ...


Hi,
Most probably you need to reflash the amanero.


----------



## ikhuong (Nov 22, 2020)

myshark said:


> Hi,
> Most probably you need to reflash the amanero.


Thanks for advising, followed this https://www.amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm and could get the USB back


----------



## ProLoL

ikhuong said:


> Hi fellow head-fi friends,
> 
> I downloaded http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm to download
> DI-20V4.076 (Oct. 2020) and followed this guide http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R8/R8updateEN.htm
> ...



You most likely accidentally touched the red thingy that causes amanero to reset.


----------



## PLGA

Hello guys
I've done some tweaks (USB A to B adaptor, vibrapods on my subs, etc) and as I posted before the sound got cleaner and more focused. 

Well, the thing now it's that I feel it's super detailed and incredibly holographic, but a little too much for my taste. 

I'm running 3.933 firmware and I would like to try a smoother one. Was it 4.075 or 4.076 the smoother one?


----------



## ProLoL

PLGA said:


> Hello guys
> I've done some tweaks (USB A to B adaptor, vibrapods on my subs, etc) and as I posted before the sound got cleaner and more focused.
> 
> Well, the thing now it's that I feel it's super detailed and incredibly holographic, but a little too much for my taste.
> ...



The 3.93Beta2


----------



## ikhuong

The USB input on my DI-20 is extremely troublesome, it keeps hung when I do not play or leave the DI-20 to power on overnight,
in the morning, I need to power drain multiple times to get the USB to work . this issue does not happen to Coaxial input.

Please advise me if you have any experience with this amanero USB chip, I have re-flashed it CPLD_for_1080 https://www.amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm
nothing improves,

so frustrated with my first Audio-GD experience.


----------



## jimmychan

Any people has the DI-20 comparison with  Denafrips Gaia?


----------



## Deolum (Nov 23, 2020)

Would you guys say the Sotm Sms 200 Neo Ultra into the DI-20 HE sounds better than for example a Auralic Aries Femto/G1 or Metrum Ambre/Sonnet Hermes directly into the Dac? I'd use the AES ports of the Auralic, Metrum, Sonnet so not the USB directly into Dac.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Nov 26, 2020)

If anyone is interested in my NIMAK power brick with four outlets I am selling it.

It has NIMAK's X-25 reference power cable in it and it is stunnig.

I am only selling to get a new one with 6 outlets.

I'll sell it for half of what I paid less than year ago.

The improvements to my audio-gd system over a standard power chord were *miraculous.*


----------



## marcelnl

good power does wonders!


----------



## Articnoise

Deolum said:


> Would you guys say the Sotm Sms 200 Neo Ultra into the DI-20 HE sounds better than for example a Auralic Aries Femto/G1 or Metrum Ambre/Sonnet Hermes directly into the Dac? I'd use the AES ports of the Auralic, Metrum, Sonnet so not the USB directly into Dac.



I believe, without having heard them all myself, that the SOtM Sms 200 Neo Ultra + DI-20 HE would sound clearly better than the other ones on your list directly to DAC. Many audiophiles hold the SOtM ultra as very good (if you also have a really good LPS) and almost as good as the Innuos Zenith SE/3. I and many others here can tell you how good the DI20HE is, with the right firmware.


----------



## Deolum

Articnoise said:


> I believe, without having heard them all myself, that the SOtM Sms 200 Neo Ultra + DI-20 HE would sound clearly better than the other ones on your list directly to DAC. Many audiophiles hold the SOtM ultra as very good (if you also have a really good LPS) and almost as good as the Innuos Zenith SE/3. I and many others here can tell you how good the DI20HE is, with the right firmware.


Auralic is already out. At the moment i use a Sotm Sms-200 with LPSU into a Mutec MC-3+ USB. Soon i get a Lumin U1 Mini to compare. If i don't like the Lumin i go the Neo Ultra route for sure.


----------



## marcelnl

I was reading up on streamers and came across the Taiko extreme, at least you would not need a LPS for it....


----------



## Articnoise

Deolum said:


> Auralic is already out. At the moment i use a Sotm Sms-200 with LPSU into a Mutec MC-3+ USB. Soon i get a Lumin U1 Mini to compare. If i don't like the Lumin i go the Neo Ultra route for sure.



I hope you understand that my post was for SOtM Sms 200 Neo Ultra (quality LPS) *+* DI-20HE, and not for u1 mini, Mutec or only SOtM direct to DAC.


----------



## Deolum

Articnoise said:


> I hope you understand that my post was for SOtM Sms 200 Neo Ultra (quality LPS) *+* DI-20HE, and not for u1 mini, Mutec or only SOtM direct to DAC.


Yes. But since i neither have the Neo Ultra nor the DI-20HE i have to work with what i know as i consider the 200 and the Mutec atleast somewhat similar devices.


----------



## Articnoise

Deolum said:


> Yes. But since i neither have the Neo Ultra nor the DI-20HE i have to work with what i know as i consider the 200 and the Mutec atleast somewhat similar devices.



Oh dear, why did you ask about the combination if you aren’t interested in them?


----------



## Deolum

Articnoise said:


> Oh dear, why did you ask about the combination if you aren’t interested in them?


Because i try to figure out if the right way to upgrade is to the Neo Ultra in a DDC/Reclocker and then via AES in the Dac or take a streamer like G1/Ambre/U1 Mini that already got AES out and feed the Dac directly via AES.


----------



## Articnoise (Nov 27, 2020)

Deolum said:


> Because i try to figure out if the right way to upgrade is to the Neo Ultra in a DDC/Reclocker and then via AES in the Dac or take a streamer like G1/Ambre/U1 Mini that already got AES out and feed the Dac directly via AES.



@Deolum am a simple man. I don’t see how any of it will help you figure out which way to upgrade, but OTOH if it helps you all is good.

If I had the SOtM 200 and it worked well I would start by buying the DI20HE and use it together with the SOtM 200 you already have. If you want to upgrade to even better later on then you can either chose to upgrade to a SOtM ultra + quality LPS, or Innuos Zen/Zenith or something comparable. The point I try to make is that the DI20 HE is so good that at least I would start with upgrade to it.


----------



## Deolum

Articnoise said:


> @Deolum am a simple man. I don’t see how any of it will help you figure out which way to upgrade, but OTOH if it helps you all is good.
> 
> If I had the SOtM 200 and it worked well I would start by buying the DI20HE and use it together with the SOtM 200 you already have. If you want to upgrade to even better later on then you can either chose to upgrade to a SOtM ultra + quality LPS, or Innuos Zen/Zenith or something comparable. The point I try to make is that the DI20 HE is so good that at least I would start with upgrade to it.


What i still don't understand tho is how does 

Streamer via USB into DI-20 HE via AES into Dac

sound better than

Streamer via AES into Dac

if the DI-20 doesn't reclock the signal?


----------



## Articnoise (Nov 27, 2020)

Deolum said:


> What i still don't understand tho is how does
> 
> Streamer via USB into DI-20 HE via AES into Dac
> 
> ...



The DI20HE re-clocks the signal, but it far from the only thing it does. It was an upgrade to me, even than I already had an audio PC with JCAT NET card + LPS and an ultraRendu and now with my Innuos Zenith mk3. With the Zenith mk3 the advantage of having the DI20HE is not as big as with my prior system (PC + ultraRendu + DI20HE), but the mere fact that it sounds better with it than without makes it a great DDC. I have 2 other DDC which I have compared the DI20HE too.


----------



## Deolum

Articnoise said:


> The DI20HE re-clocks the signal, but it far from the only thing it does. It was an upgrade to me, even than I already had an audio PC with JCAT NET card + LPS and an ultraRendu and now with my Innuos Zenith mk3. With the Zenith mk3 the advantage of having the DI20HE is not as big as with my prior system (PC + ultraRendu + DI20HE), but the mere fact that it sounds better with it than without makes it a great DDC. I have 2 other DDC which I have compared the DI20HE too.


But what does it then other than reclocking? 

I've just compared the Lumin U1 Mini now directly via AES into the Dac and first via USB in the Mutec MC-3+ Reclocker and then in the Dac via USB. I prefer the former.

Now if i prefer the Lumin directly into the Dac there might me a chance that i don't like the DI-20HE either. Or are there any significant differences between DI-20HE and MC3+?


----------



## sajunky (Nov 27, 2020)

Deolum said:


> What i still don't understand tho is how does
> 
> Streamer via USB into DI-20 HE via AES into Dac
> 
> ...


I may reclock or not, depends on the (negotiated) USB mode. In an ideal case it doesn't reclock, but USB data stream is synchronised with a quality internal DI-20 clock (or an external clock of your choice), see #8.


> 7, Built in the 150M high speed isolator between USB interface and FPGA signal processor. Because the isolator can effect the data and clock transmit, so the FPGA has corrected the timing to improved on sound quality .
> 8, The USB inteface and FPGA processor have applied the same clocks for avoid the different clocks effect the sound quality .


It looks like there are  improvements in the output interface design, outputs are galvanically isolated same as USB input:


> 14, The 2nd generation ACSS SPdif output design that invented by Kingwa, which offers even further reduced signal degradation and better sound quality over a coaxial cable . The DI-20 also design standard coaxial output connector, with built-in silver wire isolation transformer.


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 27, 2020)

USB was not designed for audio, and it shows....I do not understand how 'the industry' fails to design a new and improved format for HQ audio, I2S works great with some effort but it was never designed for longer paths....what is it, is it that the likes of Philips and Sony are almost dead now? (well Philips pulled out of consumer electronics)


----------



## tumpux

Funny..
At this stage who still have R&D budget to be spent on such a trivial field like high end audio?
High end audio is the past of the entertainment industry. Now it is a niche market which catered by small time players and cottage industry.


----------



## marcelnl (Nov 28, 2020)

Companies like Sony LG etc still do a fair bit of research, how hard can it be to design a great format to transfer digital audio signal that can also serve to improve other products betwen a few large companies and create a new standard?

I'm fine with high end being a cottage industry, I make most of what I need myself anyway.


----------



## sajunky

There is nothing wrong with USB. The only problem, it require DC for negotiation, it makes it difficult to isolate galvanically. Many USB purifying devices do not work well, it is why a reputation. However USB has an unique ability of synchronising transfer speed based on the feedback received from the target device which is running with its own high precision clock of a fixed frequency (no drawbacks of async reclocking and/or PLL). It makes clock synchronisation super simple. A trick is to convert USB to I2S first on a dirty side, then feed I2S wires through the galvanic isolation. And now you can deal with I2S using HiFi rules. 

USB will continue to expand. If any new HiFi interface standard is developed, it will have USB synchronisation method, replacing Word Clock feed forward method. It could be I2S kind with a clock feeding back and new handshaking lines. Or IP Ethernet as a transport (see trend in current network streamers).


----------



## marcelnl

the idea behind USB is not bad, I just hate how it sounds especially after having heard how much better S/PDIF sounds and then jumping to I2S, major leaps for mankind or something like that... 

I love USB for everything else, but audio signal.


----------



## roni44

What's everyone's experience on Parallel and Serial? For me Parallel sounds lively but a bit harsh, Serial sounds darker but smoother. MacBook Pro/Audirvana USB >DI-20 90/98M/GPSDO Clock HDMI > Micromega M100


----------



## Toni-Mang

in my system serial has a wider soundstage, but this might depend on the source and sample rate.
parallel has a compacter center image imho (DI20HE (4.076) -> R8 (NOS)). It is a question of taste....


----------



## SwissBear

Hi everyone,

I’m new here. I just received my new DI20-HE. I am using it, in connexion with a Mutec Ref-10, to produce a I2S flow for my DAC. I wanted to know if there is any “better” firmware version to support the Ref-10 ? Is 3.933 better than the one which is shipped with the box ?
Thanks.


----------



## SwissBear

SwissBear said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I’m new here. I just received my new DI20-HE. I am using it, in connexion with a Mutec Ref-10, to produce a I2S flow for my DAC. I wanted to know if there is any “better” firmware version to support the Ref-10 ? Is 3.933 better than the one which is shipped with the box ?
> Thanks.


Hi everyone, any advice on this one ?


----------



## SwissBear (Dec 5, 2020)

I kind of struggled with the update process of the Amanero driver.
I wrote this (inspired from Amanero instructions) in order to help others.

*How to upgrade the Amanero firmware to operate in full DSD (instead of DoP) with Linux devices (and in connexion with SOtM sMS-200 devices) *

(prerequisite is a PC with MS Windows OS, or a Mac with Parallel software)

1)     Unzip the update tool ( https://amanero.com/oemtool117u.zip ) downloaded from amanero.com, into a folder, for example on Desktop.  

2)     ERASE THE FLASH  
   Connect the DI20-HE to your computer using USB cable. Press the update button for 2  seconds. Then unplug the USB cable and shut the DI20-HE down.
   Reconnect the USB cable and power the DI20-HE up.

3)     When you replug the erased device, Windows can ask about a driver.
The needed driver info file *atm6124_cdc.inf *is among the unzipped files.  

4)     Be sure to be connected to internet.  

5)     Run ConfigTool.exe, select    the CPLD firmware version (*Use CPLD_for_1081 or CPLD_1081_SWAPPED*) and press *FLASH    CPLD*.      

6)     Wait 3-4 seconds then Unplug the USB cable and Replug it again      

7)     Select    the CPU firmware version    (*Use firmware_2006be11*). Press *FLASH CPU *and when done unplug the USB cable  

8) Replug the USB cable and if it's all ok the audio driver needs to detect the device.


----------



## myshark

SwissBear said:


> Hi everyone, any advice on this one ?


Hi, u should try all 3 and decide for yourself. Also on parallel or serial mode. Pls bear in mind di20 needs burn in time...long time.

Enjoy.


----------



## SwissBear

myshark said:


> Hi, u should try all 3 and decide for yourself. Also on parallel or serial mode. Pls bear in mind di20 needs burn in time...long time.
> 
> Enjoy.


Thanks you. I will obviously decide for myself . I have to say that I am always a little bit puzzled when I see forks in software development. So I was kind of looking for an advice on the 3.933 in relation to Mutec Ref-10, and check whether this version was bringing serious improvements in supporting an external clock which delivers square signals and not sinusoidal ones...
Thanks for the warning on burn-in time. I was wondering whether the oscillators were the longest to burn in or if the whole machine needed such a long time. The return policy of the company which sold me the device is 15 days. So I need to make my personal idea withing this time frame, which is short in relation to the 300 hours which are advised as burn-in time.


----------



## Thenewguy007

I believe the biggest difference with the firmware is tone. With the two latest ones being more warmer sound.

I would definitely try the latest one though, to see if there was any improvements to the clocking function.


----------



## jazzbug

The latest 3 versions have received compliment by lots of ppl here, but still depends on your own system synergy, and best to try out all, such a beauty of FPGA updates from Kingwa.
For me its still 3.933


----------



## SwissBear (Dec 5, 2020)

Thanks to the three of you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate 
I have tried the 3 versions and I better understand your recommendations.
I have to say that I personally have a preference for the tonal neutrality of 3.933.
Thanks again.


----------



## cs098

has anyone compared it to the Berkeley alpha audio usb?


----------



## smodtactical

Anyone have a problem where this monotone comes on like a higher pitched sound comes on. It won't go away until I restart the di20he, and gotta leave it off for a good few minutes, then its back to normal and works fine. Happens once in a while, maybe once a week or something. I an updated to the latest firmware. Is it overheating ?


----------



## FredA

smodtactical said:


> Anyone have a problem where this monotone comes on like a higher pitched sound comes on. It won't go away until I restart the di20he, and gotta leave it off for a good few minutes, then its back to normal and works fine. Happens once in a while, maybe once a week or something. I an updated to the latest firmware. Is it overheating ?


I have had a similar problem. Skipping or restarting the song would cure it. I think it was caused by the amanero underflowing or something like this. I think it's due to latency. My streamer is the usbridge sig.  Using a better usb cable made the problem almost disappear. It happens once every two weeks now or less. When using the rpi4b, i never had this issue.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 7, 2020)

FredA said:


> I have had a similar problem. Skipping or restarting the song would cure it. I think it was caused by the amanero underflowing or something like this. I think it's due to latency. My streamer is the usbridge sig.  Using a better usb cable made the problem almost disappear. It happens once every two weeks now or less. When using the rpi4b, i never had this issue.


Good observation, it is true due to the latency on one side, but ground loop noise is a clulprit in most cases, so a different cable can reduce effect, it may even eliminate if lucky.

On my laptop as a source it happens when synchronous transfer mode is selected, the same happens on three different DACs tested. One has Amanero drivers, second one XMOS, the third use built in Windows drivers (CM108 chip). All of them lose synchnronisation at times, producing similar distortions. A time to recover vary, depends on the chip. CM108 is the worst one.

I have a bit-perfect configuration in Foobar, so load of the system is minimal and DPC latency is in control, but it still happens when using WASAPI push mode. It indicate excess of noise on my cheap cable. When switching to the WASAPI event mode effect is different. Now there are two cases, it will help you recognise a cause:

1. DPC latency problem on PC: There are no strange distortions, but music is interrupted for a half second (a time depends on a size of WASAPI buffers).

2. Transmission noise (ground loops, cheap cable). Each data frame is checked for errors. When wrong CRC is detected, frame is dropped and replaced with zero samples, it is very short time, you won't notice anything wrong.

-----------------------
TL;DR,
Losing synchronisation (effects as described) won't happen in WASAPI event mode. It is a right transfer mode for DI-20; a  source data stream is always synchronised with DI-20 clock. Your options:

1. Use a good quality USB cable. When testing the cable use WASAPI push output device. Use ferrite clamps on the USB cable (it can be two on both sides of the cable) to see whether it helps. Switch to the *WASAPI event* output device when finished testing and always play in this mode.

2. When it is required to skip a track or reset DI-20 and your output device is WASAPI push (or some other non bit-perfect output), don't pressure Kingwa to fix firmware. Result will be detrimental to all users who have proper low-noise setup. What Kingwa will do is increase frequency range of PLL loop. PLL will stay synchronised all the time, but on the cost of increasing jitter. If you don't understand what I am saying, trust me, it will happen.

3. When it is required to skip a track or reset DI-20 and your output device is *WASAPI event*, then something is wrong with DI-20, your feedback is required.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> Good observation, it is true due to the latency on one side, but ground loop noise is a clulprit in most cases, so a different cable can reduce effect, it may even eliminate if lucky.
> 
> On my laptop as a source it happens when synchronous transfer mode is selected, the same happens on three different DACs tested. One has Amanero drivers, second one XMOS, the third use built in Windows drivers (CM108 chip). All of them lose synchnronisation at times, producing similar distortions. A time to recover vary, depends on the chip. CM108 is the worst one.
> 
> ...


Are you sure a pll is involved?


----------



## sajunky

FredA said:


> Are you sure a pll is involved?


Yip, definitely. *WASAPI push* is a synchronous mode, Direct Sound output too, AFAIK. In this case PC is a source of a clock for the transfer. Receiving side has only choice to synchronise to this clock.

*WASAPI event* is asynchronous transfer. Only in this mode it is possible to avoid PLL and it is done first time in DI-20. See some my previous message, I insisted on using WASAPI event output in result to this change.

We need of course Kingwa to clarify this, I can be wrong.


----------



## FredA

But it the amanero talking to the PC. Kingwa does not work on the Amanero so... No possibility he will change its fw.


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## sajunky (Dec 7, 2020)

FredA said:


> But it the amanero talking to the PC. Kingwa does not work on the Amanero so... No possibility he will change its fw.


I don't understand. PLL is implemented in FPGA.


----------



## FredA

Yes. I don’t think one is used when playing from the amanero.


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## sajunky

FredA said:


> Yes. I don’t think one is used when playing from the amanero.


Still I don't understand. PLL should be active when USB synchronous mode is forced by the source. Why? Because it is better than without PLL. Like it had been active all the time on all A-GD DACs till 2021 models irrespective of the USB mode. DI-20 is a first device that is switching off PLL for USB asynchronous transfers. It is a grand feature, so we should use it.

Are you saying that there is no PLL available for USB at all? I don't believe so, it would be very bad. I think that PLL is still there, but is now tuned for the requirements of S/PDIF sources.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> Still I don't understand. PLL should be active when USB synchronous mode is forced by the source. Why? Because it is better than without PLL. Like it had been active all the time on all A-GD DACs till 2021 models irrespective of the USB mode. DI-20 is a first device that is switching off PLL for USB asynchronous transfers. It is a grand feature, so we should use it.
> 
> Are you saying that there is no PLL available for USB at all? I don't believe so, it would be very bad. I think that PLL is still there, but is now tuned for the requirements of S/PDIF sources.


I don't know. Usb asynch is used in most situations, otherwise, with syncrhronous, i have no idea how things work. May the amanero does the reclocking. Maybe not.


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## smodtactical

sajunky said:


> Good observation, it is true due to the latency on one side, but ground loop noise is a clulprit in most cases, so a different cable can reduce effect, it may even eliminate if lucky.
> 
> On my laptop as a source it happens when synchronous transfer mode is selected, the same happens on three different DACs tested. One has Amanero drivers, second one XMOS, the third use built in Windows drivers (CM108 chip). All of them lose synchnronisation at times, producing similar distortions. A time to recover vary, depends on the chip. CM108 is the worst one.
> 
> ...



1. Right now using audio sensibility signature usb cable. So seems good?

2. ok

3. I am using roon. How do I set wasapi in roon? Can't find it in settings.


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## sajunky

@smodtactica.

The first step is to enable WASAPI exclusive mode in Windows sound Control Panel. If you don't do this, no Windows application is able to claim exclusive axess for bit-perfect transfers. Type "control" in search box (without quotes) to access Windows Control Panel. It is carefully hidden in the latest version of Windows. Then open a sound icon and make changes for your DAC device as indicated on the screenshot.

I can't help much with Roon, but made search, it is covered there:
https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/audio-on-windows
It says, Roon support two output drivers: WASAPI or ASIO and gives you link to the basic settings page. Find WASAPI there I couldn't go through these animated things. There is setting for exclusive mode in General Settings section, it must be also enabled in the application. It is not enabled by default! 

And finally in the Advanced section you will find required setting for asynchronous transfer, also not enabled by default! 
*Enable Event Driven Mode (WASAPI only)*

Hope it helps, God bless you.


----------



## PeterCraig

Sold my much loved SU-6 yesterday, DI-20 arrives Thursday along with Precision 3 for my desktop speakers. Will look at a new dac once I have clocked 10 years or so on my M7. Which isn't that far away.


----------



## marcelnl

I finally got the Pink Faun I2S card to work, in a new project computer (AMD Ryzen 5 1600, 64Gb fast RAM, running Daphile) I'm quite sure the DI20 is not for me. I almost traded the PF card in for a DI20 as it appeared incompatible with many Intel processors....first impression is very good, and that is without a linear PSU for the computer or any upgraded cables etc.


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## FredA

PeterCraig said:


> Sold my much loved SU-6 yesterday, DI-20 arrives Thursday along with Precision 3 for my desktop speakers. Will look at a new dac once I have clocked 10 years or so on my M7. Which isn't that far away.


Welcome back, Peter. You joined a popular club!


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## PeterCraig

FredA said:


> Welcome back, Peter. You joined a popular club!



Thanks Fred! One of the more interesting threads here on Head-Fi


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## FredA

PeterCraig said:


> Thanks Fred! One of the more interesting threads here on Head-Fi




Like you, i considered the precision 3 as i now have an office at home. And an office setup, with the r2r 11 as dac/pre. This little guy is perfect for the task. The speakers are the boston a25s. The amp is the hifimediy t1. But i was curious and ordered chinese speakers and a cheap class-ab on ebay. 

The di20 should enhance the perf of your m7. Let us know by how much once it's properly burned in.


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## newabc (Dec 19, 2020)

Win 10 Quartus 16.1 installation note

I had never installed Quartus on Win 10 before, this time I did it. I didn't need to reboot the win 10 machine during the installation processes of Quartus and usb blaster, and before, on and after the flashing/update process, too.

(1) USB blaster hardware:

I used a usb blaster introduced by @Pappas3278 (head-fi link) in this thread, the amazon seller is XYGStudy. I think the Waveshare and XYGStudy brands on Amazon are selling the same models(V1 and V2).

(2) Quartus software version:
Quartus Prime Lite Edition 16.1(Free) from Intel. Exact version is 16.1.0.196. It is a free version.

Setup file's size is 1.7 GB. MD5 hash: CA6C71EE9B6AAB851D4A7E9FDC02C81D. It includes Nios II EDS. I haven't tried another setup file: it is ModelSim-Intel FPGA Edition (includes Starter Edition). File size is 1.1 GB. MD5 hash: 81EAE2F2D55ABECD4F1265FCDFE74760.

(3) Installation process note:

(a) Installed Quartus 16.1 at first.

(b) USB port:
The USB 2.0 ports on back panel of my motherboard are used by other stuff.  USB 2.0 ports on my computer case's front panel cannot make the Device Manager recognize the usb blaster even Win 10 pop-ups a "found new hardware" window before I opened Device Manager. So I used a USB 3.0 port on the front panel.

(c) After plugged in the usb blaster, the Device Manager shows an unconfigured usb-blaster in "other devices". Just follow the 2nd step in @DACLadder 's "Altera Blaster Checks" document. In the Quartus 16.1, the driver can be found in "D:\intelFPGA_lite\16.1\quartus\drivers" if you installed Quartus software in "D:\intelFPGA_lite\16.1\" folder.

(d) Power on the DI-20 and connect the blaster to it as Kingwa's update guide(link). If the Quartus Prime Lite 16.1 asks for device installation after you start the main program, just press "no".

(e) Start the programmer by "Tools => Programmer" menu of Quartus Prime Lite 16.1", then follow the 3a and 3b step of the "Altera Blaster Checks" document to do "hardware setup".

(f) Start the JTAG chain debugger by "Tools => JTAG chain debugger" menu, then follow the 3rd step of the "Altera Blaster Checks" document to "Test JTAG chain" before flashing.

(g) Follow the 6th to 8th steps of Kingwa's update guide(link) to finish the flashing and update.

Thanks for Kingwa's original update guide and @DACLadder 's "Altera Blaster Checks" ("Altera Quartus II 16.0 Programmer Tools Basic Screen Shots") document.

Update information on 12/19/20:
(1) This usb blaster's Amazon bar code is X000R4Q1A3. Only a blaster, a Mini-USB cable and JTAG cable in the package, no CD/DVD inside.

(2) Based on Waveshare's product page, it is using a FTDI chip FT245R as the USB FIFO interface. By the way, FTDI is a pretty good brand of the usb chips of the programming cables in HAM radio(link).


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## jazzbug (Dec 20, 2020)

I've settled with 3.933 for a while since three new FW published from Oct 2020. Comparing with other two, 3.933 was the most transparent, clarity and emotional for my rig.
Recently I received RAL i2S cable to replace a $60. Oh man, even after just 2 days burn in, the difference is HUGE.

RAL is like a magnifier, unveils and reveals all the micro details, the separation, tonal clarity, sound stage, razor clearness, airy, esp with high, blacker background.
I have gone through the latest three FW again with RAL, as I was bit disappointing with 3.933, which was my fav with old HDMI cable.
Now 3.933 sounds quite forward, on the face, pin point instrument, extreme details, but lack of low end and I was bit detached from the music itself but the audio, though I've been constantly amazed by the extra details I didn't hear from the same album in the past. Having said that RAL is still much less harsh on highs than the old $60.
I switch to 4.076, it feels everything decreases a little bit, I still don't feel the engagement as in the past.
Finally the 4.075, I can tell straight away it's not the extact clinical presentation of 3.933, the sound stage retrieves bit further back which is my liking. I have more bass, and most important the connection with my music again.

It's interesting that RAL made my FW opinions opposite from other HDMI cable, I'm enjoying music with 4.075 and believe it will last a long time until Kingwa gives us another FW boost.
I'm extremely happy with RAL investment, perfect in my rig from DI20HE (internal P) to PS DSD senior.


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## PeterCraig

My new DI-20 shipped with 4.075


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## FredA (Dec 19, 2020)

jazzbug said:


> I've settled with 3.933 for a while since three new FW published from Oct 2020. Comparing with other two, 3.933 was the most transparent, clarity and emotional for my rig.
> Recently I finally received RAL i2S cable to replace a $60. Oh man, even after just 2 days burn in, the difference is HUGE.
> 
> RAL is like a magnifier, unveils and reveals all the micro details, the separation, tonal clarity, sound stage, razor clearness, airy, esp with high, blacker background.
> ...


You RAL, from my experience with silver cables, should need 300 hours to mature.

Funny, coincidently, i just got my Nimak Purple (all silver)  usb cable two days ago. Still makes 3.993 very enjoyable but with some much more ambience and details that were not heard before, plus deeper bass. Still too early to judge the cable, it's gonna need another 3 weeks.

Ouch, 800USD for the RAL. The nimak silver retails for 600.


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## jazzbug

I might fast forward the burn in over coming 10 days


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## DACLadder (Dec 20, 2020)

@newabc  Appreciate you updating the Altera software links.  To save a lot of disc space instead of installing the whole Quartus design suite and tools you will never use just download the programming only tools.  See the link below in the 'Intel Download Center'.

I downloaded the latest 20.4 programming tools and installation is twice the size of the older 16.0/1 programmer only versions (1.4GB vs 2.8GB).  And the latest tools have the 'dumb down' Windows tablet look.  16 looks better with a standard PC setup.  All these programmer s/w versions do the same thing.  It does not matter.  Just need to find one that runs without error on your computer.


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## Articnoise

jazzbug said:


> I've settled with 3.933 for a while since three new FW published from Oct 2020. Comparing with other two, 3.933 was the most transparent, clarity and emotional for my rig.
> Recently I received RAL i2S cable to replace a $60. Oh man, even after just 2 days burn in, the difference is HUGE.
> 
> RAL is like a magnifier, unveils and reveals all the micro details, the separation, tonal clarity, sound stage, razor clearness, airy, esp with high, blacker background.
> ...



Clinical presentation and lack of low end is not what I have experienced with the DI20HE and 3.933. 

You may not like what am about to say, but if the new cable change the sound the way you describe it - well isn’t it the sound of the cable? Which if I don’t misread your post has not been burn in yet.

Many audio gear has stunning micro details, separation, transparency etc but still is not that great IMO, because they are to analytical, to bright and lack fullness and coherence.


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## jazzbug (Dec 21, 2020)

As I mentioned it's audition after 2 days burn in, it might change later on.
My impression of 3.933 is nothing of typical saying of 'clinical', on the contrary it's no harsh at all but with enormous details comparing with old $60. With 4.075 I find the right place of everything I want and acceptable. 
To be frank I didn't get huge difference with three FW with old $60, I settled with 3.933 because of the better clarity in the past.
With RAL the FW difference is obvious, or I might say RAL presents FW in it's own way? Hence I feel to put the word magnifier.
Only to share my 2c, everyone would find their own RAL, ARL or LAR...


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## Toni-Mang (Dec 24, 2020)

@FredA ...regarding the Nimak Black USB pure Silver.... i had it in the chain for 8 Weeks 7*24...
then i changed back to the AQ Coffee....and...the soundstage is wider and deeper...
Clinical pinpoint image is equal...but lower mids and bass is more sustainable...might be the source cable synergy in my setup.
Regarding the Audio GD R8/7HE way, i ordered a may...


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## REAN1MAT0R

Guys, what device do you use to connect to Di-20HE and R7-HE firmwareupdate port if you want to update their firmwares from pc ?


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## DACLadder (Dec 24, 2020)

@REAN1MAT0R  Kingwa has a new guide which is shown here:  http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/Quatusinstall.htm .  In the online document is a link for discussion of USB - JTAG adapter hardware (USB Blaster) that connects to the FPGA and allows reprogramming.  The link is repeated here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/page-117#post-15758813 .

And come back if you have other questions...


----------



## newabc

DACLadder said:


> @REAN1MAT0R  Kingwa has a new guide which is shown here:  http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/Quatusinstall.htm .  In the online document is a link for discussion of USB - JTAG adapter hardware (USB Blaster) that connects to the FPGA and allows reprogramming.  The link is repeated here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/page-117#post-15758813 .
> 
> And come back if you have other questions...


@DACLadder, your document helps a lot!
It's my honor that my note was accepted by Kingwa and the link was posted on his front page!


----------



## Jomsjoms

Guys im new to this and im considering the Denafrips venus II. I've just read about the Audio-gr and it seems that its a direct competitor of the denafrips. In this case, has someone here been able to hear the Denafrips venus II vs the Audio-gr R7? (is this the model which is comparable to venus?). Also, is the  Audio-GD DI-20  the same as the denfarips Gaia? Whats the difference? thanks.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 30, 2020)

Jomsjoms said:


> Guys im new to this and im considering the Denafrips venus II. I've just read about the Audio-gr and it seems that its a direct competitor of the denafrips. In this case, has someone here been able to hear the Denafrips venus II vs the Audio-gr R7? (is this the model which is comparable to venus?). Also, is the  Audio-GD DI-20  the same as the denfarips Gaia? Whats the difference? thanks.


I will try to answer one question. DI-20 implements a direct USB clocking when asynchronous transfers are negotiated with host. There is no PLL required. This DI-20 method is so succesful that now is implemented in all DACs 2021 versions. It makes a difference to the competitors who still deploy PLL (including Gaia). This is one things. The other is that you can save money on the DDC when you get a new R7. Use this money to up the standard to the R-7HE.

HE versions (DACs and DCCs) use regenerative power supply, it is a second difference.


----------



## DACLadder (Dec 30, 2020)

I meant to say the DI-20HE turned out to be a great DDC.  You won't regret.


----------



## NujaBlessed

Hi there,

I recently bought the di-20he and just encountered my first issues with it. There is a sample rate or bit rate (or both) mismatching issue between my pi2aes coaxial out and the di-20he coaxial in. I have tested the pi2aes separately in my chain with no issues, but with the di-20he coaxial, I get very harsh buzzing/artefacting whenever no sound is playing or when I change sample rates between multiples of 44.1 or 48 khz. I reached out to Kingwa about this and he suggested that the pi2aes is outputting too little voltage which just doesn't make any sense to me, considering it's working fine elsewhere. Has anyone else experienced this or know of a fix? I like the sound more than just a pi usb into the di-20he, but cannot even use my system cause of the buzzing right now.


----------



## Jandu

NujaBlessed said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I recently bought the di-20he and just encountered my first issues with it. There is a sample rate or bit rate (or both) mismatching issue between my pi2aes coaxial out and the di-20he coaxial in. I have tested the pi2aes separately in my chain with no issues, but with the di-20he coaxial, I get very harsh buzzing/artefacting whenever no sound is playing or when I change sample rates between multiples of 44.1 or 48 khz. I reached out to Kingwa about this and he suggested that the pi2aes is outputting too little voltage which just doesn't make any sense to me, considering it's working fine elsewhere. Has anyone else experienced this or know of a fix? I like the sound more than just a pi usb into the di-20he, but cannot even use my system cause of the buzzing right now.


Why don't you try using the RPi usb to connect via usb and see if that works.


----------



## NujaBlessed (Jan 7, 2021)

Jandu said:


> Why don't you try using the RPi usb to connect via usb and see if that works.


I mentioned that I like the sound more through the pi2aes spdif, otherwise I wouldn't be asking the question... but I shouldn't be limited to the USB only regardless, otherwise why include a spdif in.


----------



## Jandu

Jandu said:


> Why don't you try using the RPi usb to connect via usb and see if that works. If that works, at least the RPi and DI20 usb portions are working. You may then test if usb connection is better/worst then the other option. Beware that your cable may be part of this equation.


----------



## Jandu

NujaBlessed said:


> I mentioned that I like the sound more through the pi2aes spdif, otherwise I wouldn't be asking the question... but I shouldn't be limited to the USB only regardless, otherwise why include a spdif in.



Are you still burning in your unit? Like less than 300 hrs


----------



## NujaBlessed

The unit has had probably has 400~ hours of playtime and much more time on. I don't see how that would fix this.


----------



## Jandu

NujaBlessed said:


> The unit has had probably has 400~ hours of playtime and much more time on. I don't see how that would fix this.


Things I can suggest : 
Try a different cable and/or try a different spdif source.

I do find occasionally, switch off the unit for 5 minutes before power on again may help if the noise comes from interference.


----------



## myshark

NujaBlessed said:


> The unit has had probably has 400~ hours of playtime and much more time on. I don't see how that would fix this.


Hi, maybe you should try another spdif input eg cdp to ensure that di20 spdif input is ok. I use cdp coax out to spdif input di20 with no problem. Also try use another coax cable.
Hope it helps.


----------



## edwhiu

NujaBlessed said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I recently bought the di-20he and just encountered my first issues with it. There is a sample rate or bit rate (or both) mismatching issue between my pi2aes coaxial out and the di-20he coaxial in. I have tested the pi2aes separately in my chain with no issues, but with the di-20he coaxial, I get very harsh buzzing/artefacting whenever no sound is playing or when I change sample rates between multiples of 44.1 or 48 khz. I reached out to Kingwa about this and he suggested that the pi2aes is outputting too little voltage which just doesn't make any sense to me, considering it's working fine elsewhere. Has anyone else experienced this or know of a fix? I like the sound more than just a pi usb into the di-20he, but cannot even use my system cause of the buzzing right now.


Hi there, 
I experienced this same issue with a DI-20. 
Kingwa gave me the same advice he has given you. 
The issue was fixed as I upgraded the firmware to FW V4.075. 
Good luck.


----------



## NujaBlessed

edwhiu said:


> Hi there,
> I experienced this same issue with a DI-20.
> Kingwa gave me the same advice he has given you.
> The issue was fixed as I upgraded the firmware to FW V4.075.
> Good luck.



How do I update the firmware? There's absolutely nothing on the website.


----------



## Jandu (Jan 8, 2021)

NujaBlessed said:


> How do I update the firmware? There's absolutely nothing on the website.


http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/Quatusinstall.htm
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm


Upper left corner on the products page


----------



## NujaBlessed

Jandu said:


> http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/Quatusinstall.htm
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
> 
> 
> Upper left corner on the products page


The pictures in that guide are broken (http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN_update.htm) and I couldn't download the 16.1 quartus software without some kind of account.


----------



## DACLadder (Jan 8, 2021)

You can download version Quartus 16.0 programming s/w here.  No login or license required.  Windows 32 and 64.
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1

I have nothing to do with the online instructions.  But feel free to ask for advice or help on this thread.  I think programming, USB JTAG adapters, and firmware updating were discussed recently on the R7 DAC thread.


----------



## edwhiu

NujaBlessed said:


> How do I update the firmware? There's absolutely nothing on the website.


Yes there are links for FW upgrades on the website.
Follow the links that good people share in this thread.
You do need an Altera USB blaster to link your computer to the DI-20.
You will get there.
Be patient.


----------



## elricofchaos72

Quick question about ACSS.  The DI20 has a single ACSS output port.  But the Master 9 needs 2 ACSS input cables, one per channel.  What is the proper cable to use or is there a single end to dual end ACSS cable?  I do not see one on the website under cables?


----------



## sajunky (Jan 9, 2021)

elricofchaos72 said:


> Quick question about ACSS.  The DI20 has a single ACSS output port.  But the Master 9 needs 2 ACSS input cables, one per channel.  What is the proper cable to use or is there a single end to dual end ACSS cable?  I do not see one on the website under cables?


Cables won't help. It is a digital S/PDIF interface which is using ACSS link (a type of physical connection). It carries two digital channels and a clock signal on the same wire. This output is used to connect a DAC having the same type of input.  It extends standard S/PDIF frequency range up to 384k samples per second.

Your Master 9 takes analog signal, it is why there are two ACSS connectors - one per each channel..


----------



## DACLadder (Jan 10, 2021)

elricofchaos72 said:


> Quick question about ACSS.  The DI20 has a single ACSS output port.  But the Master 9 needs 2 ACSS input cables, one per channel.  What is the proper cable to use or is there a single end to dual end ACSS cable?  I do not see one on the website under cables?



ACSS is just Kingwa’s marketing speak to describe signal circuits for the DI-20 SPDIF output are build on the current domain versus voltage.  And the M9’ACSS I/Os are analog audio and again processed in the current domain.  So two different functions but each called ACSS. 

The ACSS SPDIF output is compatible with regular 75 ohm coax inputs.  But the M9’s ACSS analog I/Os are only compatible with other ACSS analog or Krell’s CAST.


----------



## Jandu (Jan 9, 2021)

elricofchaos72 said:


> Quick question about ACSS.  The DI20 has a single ACSS output port.  But the Master 9 needs 2 ACSS input cables, one per channel.  What is the proper cable to use or is there a single end to dual end ACSS cable?  I do not see one on the website under cables?



Between the DI20 and M9, you likely need to have a DAC such as the R8/R7. You cannot send a digital  steam directly  to the M9 without coverting it to an analog signal.

Once converted by a DAC,  the outputs from the Audio GD DAC would have ACSS connection 
from DAC to M9


----------



## baramzisyan

hello!  where is the best price for  DI-20HE ?
need worldwide shipping


----------



## Jandu

baramzisyan said:


> hello!  where is the best price for  DI-20HE ?
> need worldwide shipping


The best price is to get it now. It has a 5 % discount if you are buying one item. If you are getting something else, you may get up to 7.5%.

Audio GD only sell direct with the listed price + shipping & paypal. 

Unless you wait for the used market, you can't get it any cheaper


----------



## PeterCraig

The only used ones you are going to see are the DI-20 when people upgrade to the DI-20HE.


----------



## smodtactical

I am on the latest firmware I believe (updated it about 1-2 months ago). But I keep getting an issue every couple hours where the music will repeat for 0.5 seconds and then continue playing or will just stop and I have to click play for it to resume (I am using roon). Anyone have similar problem? Using I2s output and coax input in di20he.


----------



## sajunky

smodtactical said:


> I am on the latest firmware I believe (updated it about 1-2 months ago). But I keep getting an issue every couple hours where the music will repeat for 0.5 seconds and then continue playing or will just stop and I have to click play for it to resume (I am using roon). Anyone have similar problem? Using I2s output and coax input in di20he.


We haven' t seen any feedback how you managed to setup Roon for WASAPI event driven mode, nor trying a different USB cable. You can also try to put two ferrite clamps on both ends of  the USB cable. It looks like:
https://www.google.co.za/search?client=opera&q=ferrite+clamp
Do you power your Roon device, DDC and the amp and other components from the same power outlet?


----------



## smodtactical

sajunky said:


> We haven' t seen any feedback how you managed to setup Roon for WASAPI event driven mode, nor trying a different USB cable. You can also try to put two ferrite clamps on both ends of  the USB cable. It looks like:
> https://www.google.co.za/search?client=opera&q=ferrite+clamp
> Do you power your Roon device, DDC and the amp and other components from the same power outlet?



Hey just tried disabling event driven mode, will see if that fixes the issue.

If that doesn't work will try different usb cable.

Roon core is my pc on 1 outlet. Rest on another outlet.

Thx!


----------



## smodtactical

smodtactical said:


> Hey just tried disabling event driven mode, will see if that fixes the issue.
> 
> If that doesn't work will try different usb cable.
> 
> ...



Ok within 5 minutes of driving event driven mode off the sound stopped and i got a buzzing sound... I clicked play on roon and then the music kept playing. 

My hunch is its an inherent problem in di20he? But not sure.


----------



## smodtactical

smodtactical said:


> Ok within 5 minutes of driving event driven mode off the sound stopped and i got a buzzing sound... I clicked play on roon and then the music kept playing.
> 
> My hunch is its an inherent problem in di20he? But not sure.



Actually I wonder if its an I2s issue? I will try coax out only for a while.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 27, 2021)

smodtactical said:


> Hey just tried disabling event driven mode, will see if that fixes the issue.
> ...
> Roon core is my pc on 1 outlet. Rest on another outlet.


I actually wrote that you should enable event mode in Roon. This is the best option for modern DACs.

PC on the other outlet is the best to separate HiFi from PC noise, but put a strain on the USB connection. I wonder, maybe galvanic isolation is broken on DI. Try the same outlet for testing. How long is USB cable?


smodtactical said:


> Actually I wonder if its an I2s issue? I will try coax out only for a while.


I don't think so. Problem is between PC and DI.


----------



## jimmychan

Try another source such as a Raspberry or other streamers.


----------



## smodtactical (Jan 28, 2021)

sajunky said:


> I actually wrote that you should enable event mode in Roon. This is the best option for modern DACs.
> 
> PC on the other outlet is the best to separate HiFi from PC noise, but put a strain on the USB connection. I wonder, maybe galvanic isolation is broken on DI. Try the same outlet for testing. How long is USB cable?
> 
> I don't think so. Problem is between PC and DI.



Ah sorry. Ok ya enabling is better I think... thats that it was set to before.

USB cable is 0.5 m and its a pretty high quality audio sensibility signature I think.

Kingwa told me before he thought there was an issue with i2s layout settings on terminator. The Alvin told me how to change the different 'i2s modes'. So I did and cycled a few modes, but that didn't seem to fix it.



jimmychan said:


> Try another source such as a Raspberry or other streamers.



I'll double check but with pi2aes theres no issue.


----------



## smodtactical

sajunky said:


> I actually wrote that you should enable event mode in Roon. This is the best option for modern DACs.
> 
> PC on the other outlet is the best to separate HiFi from PC noise, but put a strain on the USB connection. I wonder, maybe galvanic isolation is broken on DI. Try the same outlet for testing. How long is USB cable?
> 
> I don't think so. Problem is between PC and DI.



You were right its not an i2s issue. Happens with coax as well.


----------



## sajunky

@smodtactical. Cable lenght is appropriate, but it can be faulty. It is why I suggested to use a different cable. However if the same cable was used with Rpi, it is less probability. In such case connecting PC to the same power outlet is your last chance. Your DI should be checked by a technician whether galvanic isolation on DI works properly.

It will involve a cost, so maybe rewire PC power cord first and if it doesn't help try a trick with isolating 5V pin on the type A plug (PC side). It works generally on Audio GD DACs (which do not use USB power). It seems that floating 5V wire on the receiving side works as an antenna interfering current flow on signal wires. I think Kingwa should supply a special cable with 5V wire removed or soldered to the ground wire on both sides. It works with my R2R-11 and many other people report the same.


----------



## wompa164 (Jan 28, 2021)

I'm sorry because I know this has been covered but, can someone post a link to the USB blaster they purchased, ideally from a US-based seller? I've got a Ref5 on the original firmware from '10 and would like to upgrade.


----------



## smodtactical

sajunky said:


> @smodtactical. Cable lenght is appropriate, but it can be faulty. It is why I suggested to use a different cable. However if the same cable was used with Rpi, it is less probability. In such case connecting PC to the same power outlet is your last chance. Your DI should be checked by a technician whether galvanic isolation on DI works properly.
> 
> It will involve a cost, so maybe rewire PC power cord first and if it doesn't help try a trick with isolating 5V pin on the type A plug (PC side). It works generally on Audio GD DACs (which do not use USB power). It seems that floating 5V wire on the receiving side works as an antenna interfering current flow on signal wires. I think Kingwa should supply a special cable with 5V wire removed or soldered to the ground wire on both sides. It works with my R2R-11 and many other people report the same.



Stuff seems  pretty advanced will have to carefully consider. I tried a different pc usb port and that didn't change anything. I'll try another usb.

I suppose I could use my sotm dx usb to convert to coax and use coax input ?


----------



## sajunky

@smodtactical. On another thought, maybe you should try self-powered USB2.0 hub (not 3.0) on a short cable. Ports on your computer can be USB 3.0 which usually give higher noise than older 2.0 ports, it is one reason. A second reason for using self-powered hub is that ground loop can be redirected to flow between these two devices. I understand it sounds crazy while having DI-20HE, but we don't know origin of a problem.

In future you will replace the included SMPS with linear PSU for better results. For now chose a hub that is specced to have multi transaction translators (or Multi-TT). While using a single device connected to the hub it doesn't matter, chip implementation of the more sophisticated design is usually better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hub#Transaction_translator


----------



## Chopin75

HI all,

Just ordered my DI-20 finally from Kingwa! What HDMI cable would you recommend  to connect it to my R7 ?  Thanks!


----------



## FredA

Belden series fe.


----------



## Jandu

Chopin75 said:


> HI all,
> 
> Just ordered my DI-20 finally from Kingwa! What HDMI cable would you recommend  to connect it to my R7 ?  Thanks!


FredA has a really good suggestion. I will second that. Kingwa also suggests wireword chroma 7, in 0.5 m length. This is not an easy to find option where I am. I have the 1 m version, which does not sound as good as the shorter Belden Fe.


----------



## Chopin75

Jandu said:


> FredA has a really good suggestion. I will second that. Kingwa also suggests wireword chroma 7, in 0.5 m length. This is not an easy to find option where I am. I have the 1 m version, which does not sound as good as the shorter Belden Fe.


Thanks!  Will also ask Kiingwa. I wonder if an optical HDMI work ? I do use an optical USB that works fine with my R7


----------



## Chopin75

FredA said:


> Belden series fe.


Is it something like this ?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Jeans...n-Bonded-Pair-w-Ethernet-28-AWG-/143935003627
Only  $23 ?


----------



## jimmychan

Chopin75 said:


> Thanks!  Will also ask Kiingwa. I wonder if an optical HDMI work ? I do use an optical USB that works fine with my R7



I tried two brands of optical HDMI which does not work with R7. Moshou and Fibbr,


----------



## FredA

Chopin75 said:


> Is it something like this ?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Jeans...n-Bonded-Pair-w-Ethernet-28-AWG-/143935003627
> Only  $23 ?


Yep! Keep it short. 0.5 is enough if the di20 and dac are close apart but the cable is rather stiff.


----------



## Chopin75

jimmychan said:


> I tried two brands of optical HDMI which does not work with R7. Moshou and Fibbr,


I see, I suspect it may not work. I may try mono price  but it could be the R7 and/or DI-20 does not supply any power to the HDMI cable, if they are not designed to use with Active HDMI cables. The USB optical works because USB always can supply power.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 23, 2021)

Chopin75 said:


> I see, I suspect it may not work. I may try mono price  but it could be the R7 and/or DI-20 does not supply any power to the HDMI cable, if they are not designed to use with Active HDMI cables. The USB optical works because USB always can supply power.


Now I understand what you mean by "optical HDMI". Active HDMI converters won't work, as I2S connection is just sharing HDMI connector and cable, is not HDMI. It is not only lack of power issue, but the whole HDMI signalling protocol is different.

HDMI connector is chosen for I2S as it carries LVDS logic levels, it is all we need to not make any damage to the equipment if someone is trying to connect the wrong device. And we can use a standard HDMI cable which is not expensive.


----------



## Chopin75

SO my DI arrived very fast today from Kingwa direct, plug and play, no fuss, quite surprised all automatic. I am using an Audioquest Cinnamen. HDMI, (for my TV originally) not got time to get a proper one yet.
USB input --> DI ---> HDMI --> R7 
So the. sound stage is immediately super 3D ! dark color (not sure if it is too dark) or maybe a really black background, not sure.  There is a hint of strain/harsh/not so refine, probably due to lack of burn in (just 1 her only). 
Now what is the ACSS output for ? I don't think the R7 has a ACSS input.
Anyone prefers SPDIF/AES over the HDMI. ?


----------



## Chopin75

Wait some issue, I am unable to play native DSD via HDMI.  Is that normal ? I thought the only. way to get DSD through is via HDMI


----------



## newabc

Chopin75 said:


> SO my DI arrived very fast today from Kingwa direct, plug and play, no fuss, quite surprised all automatic. I am using an Audioquest Cinnamen. HDMI, (for my TV originally) not got time to get a proper one yet.
> USB input --> DI ---> HDMI --> R7
> So the. sound stage is immediately super 3D ! dark color (not sure if it is too dark) or maybe a really black background, not sure.  There is a hint of strain/harsh/not so refine, probably due to lack of burn in (just 1 her only).
> Now what is the ACSS output for ? I don't think the R7 has a ACSS input.
> Anyone prefers SPDIF/AES over the HDMI. ?


The SPDIF ACSS output on DI-20 is for the SPDIF coaxial input of a DAC.


----------



## Chopin75

newabc said:


> The SPDIF ACSS output on DI-20 is for the SPDIF coaxial input of a DAC.


I need an ACSS cable for that ?


----------



## newabc

Chopin75 said:


> I need an ACSS cable for that ?


An ACSS cable is for the DAC's ACSS output to pre-amp/headphone amp only, it is analog.
But the SPDIF ACSS is digital and a regular SPDIF coaxial cable should work. 
I am using a BNC/BNC 75ohm cable (its body is based on Belden 4794R) to connect DI-20 to audio-gd's Ref-5 DAC. The termination of the coaxial cable is more important.


----------



## Chopin75

So has anyone had any issue playing DSD using DI-20, native DSD via HDMI ?


----------



## Toni-Mang

Congrats to your DI, i have no issues with DSD from the DI20HE to the May, Bitstream (source) in JRiver, channel swap in the DI (L/R) and go. The DI shows DSD? Additional be aware of this "burn in" thing, today 3d, tomorrow maybe not...at least for the first 100H...


----------



## jimmychan

Chopin75 said:


> So has anyone had any issue playing DSD using DI-20, native DSD via HDMI ?


Have you set the output of your player to DoP to support DSD on R7?


----------



## barbz127

Can anyone comment on the using the DI20 vs the 2021 range with usb isolation?

Is it worth the extra money to add the DI20 into the chain?

Thankyou


----------



## sajunky

From what I hear pulling more money for DI-20HE is a better deal. There is no similar offering on that price. Non-HE version has competitors. It is not a straight answer, sorry, I don't know in person.


----------



## PLGA

Hello guys,
Has anyone of you tried Oyaide (or any other brand) DC cables for a Linear Power Supply? 

Does it really make a difference from a regular DC cable (provided with the LPS)?

If so, can you share the link from where you bought it?


----------



## motberg

PLGA said:


> Hello guys,
> Has anyone of you tried Oyaide (or any other brand) DC cables for a Linear Power Supply?
> 
> Does it really make a difference from a regular DC cable (provided with the LPS)?
> ...


http://ghentaudio.com/part/list-dc.html

Ghent makes quality cables at affordable prices. I have many but can't say I ever tested to check sound quality. I understand as short as possible, good components and soldering, and proper shielding are important characteristics. Many folks at the AS website say DC cables are critical to the power supply chain.


----------



## marcelnl

Ghent or, make your own, get some nice Neotech UP OCC cable, decent plugs ( avoid plugs and soldering where you can) and do take care of geometry and shielding.


----------



## Jackula

smodtactical said:


> You were right its not an i2s issue. Happens with coax as well.


I think there is an issue with either your Terminator or DI20HE. When I had the Terminator, I didn't have to change HDMI settings at all on the Terminator, and worked on default settings flawlessly from the DI to Terminator vs HDMI.


----------



## smodtactical

Jackula said:


> I think there is an issue with either your Terminator or DI20HE. When I had the Terminator, I didn't have to change HDMI settings at all on the Terminator, and worked on default settings flawlessly from the DI to Terminator vs HDMI.


Well to be fair any other ddc or streamer i used with terminator was flawless also so maybe its my di20he ?


----------



## Jackula

smodtactical said:


> Well to be fair any other ddc or streamer i used with terminator was flawless also so maybe its my di20he ?



Sounds like it.


----------



## Chopin75

jimmychan said:


> Have you set the output of your player to DoP to support DSD on R7?


NO I setup native DSD, which works with USB direct to R7. DoP also works.


----------



## Chopin75

Toni-Mang said:


> Congrats to your DI, i have no issues with DSD from the DI20HE to the May, Bitstream (source) in JRiver, channel swap in the DI (L/R) and go. The DI shows DSD? Additional be aware of this "burn in" thing, today 3d, tomorrow maybe not...at least for the first 100H...


Are you using Win ? KinGWA said the current stock FW is not supporting Linux for DSD. I would need to load one for it) but he is now working on a new improved FW that would support Linux so let's see.


----------



## Jandu

Chopin75 said:


> Are you using Win ? KinGWA said the current stock FW is not supporting Linux for DSD. I would need to load one for it) but he is now working on a new improved FW that would support Linux so let's see.


From Rpi4 using USB to DI20 to R8 with DSD in dsf format works for my 2019 version for both R8 & DI20


----------



## Chopin75

Jandu said:


> From Rpi4 using USB to DI20 to R8 with DSD in dsf format works for my 2019 version for both R8 & DI20


I see, presumably Rpi4 is Windows based ?


----------



## Jandu

Chopin75 said:


> I see, presumably Rpi4 is Windows based ?


Sorry, I was not a bit more specific. My raspberry pi is running on a Linux based OS.


----------



## Toni-Mang

Chopin75 said:


> Are you using Win ?


Yes and i had to swap channels for DSD - L/R (Holo Audio May)


----------



## firegon

Apologies for a potentially stupid question but can the ACSS spdif present in DI20 be somehow connected to BNC? 
I happened to purchase a Hugo TT2 and I was wondering if there is any way to connect the DI-20 to it. The bloody thing doesn't have any inputs aside from USB, toslink and BNC


----------



## Jandu (Mar 3, 2021)

firegon said:


> Apologies for a potentially stupid question but can the ACSS spdif present in DI20 be somehow connected to BNC?
> I happened to purchase a Hugo TT2 and I was wondering if there is any way to connect the DI-20 to it. The bloody thing doesn't have any inputs aside from USB, toslink and BNC


No, it cannot . Here I quote: 
*S/PDIF OUT ACSS ：*
         Output using current transmission technology over coaxial （0.5VPP @ 75 Ohm）.
         This output applies the 2nd generation coaxial ACSS technology, which offers even further reduced signal degradation and better sound quality over a coaxial cable .
          In theory, when the DI outputs the current coaxial signal to a DAC using a regular coaxial input, thus receiving the current through a 75Ohms resistor, the signal gets naturally converted to a 0.5VPP voltage coaxial signal. Therefore, most DAC can receive this signal and will benefit from this technology .
         (Note that If the DAC's coaxial input has a built-in transformer, or if the input impedance is not 75 ohm, or if the input sensitivity is not 0.5VPP @ 75Ohm, the ACSS coaxial connection may not work properly ) .


----------



## Chopin75

firegon said:


> Apologies for a potentially stupid question but can the ACSS spdif present in DI20 be somehow connected to BNC?
> I happened to purchase a Hugo TT2 and I was wondering if there is any way to connect the DI-20 to it. The bloody thing doesn't have any inputs aside from USB, toslink and BNC


You can simply use an adaptor RCA--> BNC to connect the RCA/SPDIF  output of the DI20 to the Hugo. You will lose the benefit of BNC. Alternatively you can output via AES from DI20 to the BNC via transformer. The former is likely more straight forward and probably. sound better.  I have no idea how that ACSS works and the explanation does  not help. I am not aware of any ACSS digital input. for audio-gd DACs so I am not sure what the ACSS is for.


----------



## jimmychan

ACSS type output of DI20, in short it is a low impedance current output of SPDIF signal.


----------



## sajunky

Chopin75 said:


> I have no idea how that ACSS works and the explanation does  not help. I am not aware of any ACSS digital input. for audio-gd DACs so I am not sure what the ACSS is for.


http://www.audio-gd.com/audio/ACSS.htm


----------



## Chopin75

sajunky said:


> http://www.audio-gd.com/audio/ACSS.htm


regardless of what ACSS is,  there needs to be a DAC that accepts it as digital input, I think that link might have listed some that has it. I am not sure if Kingwa put ACSS digital input on his DACs ? My R7 doesn't have one. So what is the point of putting ACSS if hardly anyone can use it ?


----------



## sajunky (Mar 4, 2021)

Chopin75 said:


> regardless of what ACSS is,  there needs to be a DAC that accepts it as digital input, I think that link might have listed some that has it. I am not sure if Kingwa put ACSS digital input on his DACs ? My R7 doesn't have one. So what is the point of putting ACSS if hardly anyone can use it ?


_DI-20 is very new, it was introduced only one year ago. Probably next version will have S/PDIF with ACSS link. _

[EDIT] No reply,  kidding. Only Kingwa knows, user manual do not bring pictures of connectivity options. 

What is a BNC type In3 port? It may serve a dual function, working as S/PDIF ACSS data port when the external clock input is not enabled on the menu. Do you have In3 input selector as a data source on the menu?

Important feature of a new link is:


> ACSS /Class S/Pdif output support up to 384K


It brings it to the Amanero USB maximum sample rate.


----------



## newabc

firegon said:


> Apologies for a potentially stupid question but can the ACSS spdif present in DI20 be somehow connected to BNC?
> I happened to purchase a Hugo TT2 and I was wondering if there is any way to connect the DI-20 to it. The bloody thing doesn't have any inputs aside from USB, toslink and BNC


If you cannot find a BNC-to-RCA coaxial cable with good termination of 75ohm in the regular market or ebay.com, you can order it from Ghent Audio or Kingwa/Audio-gd. Both of them will use a Canare brand cable as the base with pretty good termination of 75ohm on both ends in my experience. 

(For example, this one: https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/e09.html . You can see "True 75 Ohm" on the title.)

Of course, a solid silver cable is another story. @FredA has introduced one in this thread.


----------



## Chopin75

newabc said:


> If you cannot find a BNC-to-RCA coaxial cable with good termination of 75ohm in the regular market or ebay.com, you can order it from Ghent Audio or Kingwa/Audio-gd. Both of them will use a Canare brand cable as the base with pretty good termination of 75ohm on both ends in my experience.
> 
> (For example, this one: https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/e09.html . You can see "True 75 Ohm" on the title.)
> 
> Of course, a solid silver cable is another story. @FredA has introduced one in this thread.


I think eBay sells some Oyaide solid silver RCA/BNC terminals, you can certainly custom make a  RCA/BNC terminal. I have the factory stock oyaide solid silver BNC - very nice and I use an adaptor to make a RCA end if needed. Then. I also bought Oyaide Solid silver RCA version for my DI20 because Kiingwa is not able to put a BNC onto the output (Why can't he chuck out the ACSS that no one uses and put BNC in I have no idea !???)


----------



## FredA

Am i missing something here?

The Hugo, unless not with a 75 omhs input or without the right sensitivity will likely work with the bnc acss output.

There a four audio outputs all in all: hdmi, aes/ebu, rca, bnc. They all output at the same time and can all be connected at the same time. In fact, i have bnc, aes/ebu and hdmi connected and i can switch the dac input to compare them on the fly. 

As for the Oyaide, the dhlab d-750 likely beats it. One thing to pay attention to is the fact the Oyaide is directional and will sound quite better when used in the proper direction. Don't ask me why....


----------



## FredA

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/DH-Labs-Sil...512933?hash=item23e2c677a5:g:cn8AAOSw3ydVlA1U


----------



## Chopin75

FredA said:


> Am i missing something here?
> 
> The Hugo, unless not with a 75 omhs input or without the right sensitivity will likely work with the bnc acss output.
> 
> ...


OK, does it mean that one can use the ACSS as BNC (the connector looks like BNC) and connect straight to the R7 or other DAC and should work  ?


----------



## FredA

Chopin75 said:


> OK, does it mean that one can use the ACSS as BNC (the connector looks like BNC) and connect straight to the R7 or other DAC and should work  ?


If the input is impemented with a 75ohm resistor across, like the vast majority, and is compatible with a signal level of 0.5vpp, which is pretty standard, it should work.


----------



## myshark

And the dac spdif input is not transformer coupled.


----------



## FredA

myshark said:


> And the dac spdif input is not transformer coupled.


Yes, think it’s a good point.


----------



## tumpux

Yeah, I think the description of the BNC output as ACSS is confusing for most people.


----------



## newabc

tumpux said:


> Yeah, I think the description of the BNC output as ACSS is confusing for most people.


I think they may describe as ACSS digital and ACSS analog, or acss spdif and acss analog.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 5, 2021)

tumpux said:


> Yeah, I think the description of the BNC output as ACSS is confusing for most people.


BNC is just a type of the connector, like I2S LVDS connector which has nothing to do with HDMI.

It is the right type of the connector for digital transmission, RCA is not good, even for analog. There is no reason why RCA won a battle against DIN. And adoption of RCA for S/PDIF coax was confusing users for many years. Now at least we know that digital ACSS works on BNC connector.


----------



## jimmychan (Mar 5, 2021)

In theory ACSS is low impedance current output, so it should work with most of the SPDIF input, and it has less affected by the cable quality.

RCA initially is designed for analogy audio, so it is not a good connector for SPDIF.


----------



## Chopin75

FredA said:


> Am i missing something here?
> 
> The Hugo, unless not with a 75 omhs input or without the right sensitivity will likely work with the bnc acss output.
> 
> ...


ok , yes it works! Now I am using my BNC cable from to R7 direct. I don't think Magna realize the ACSS is BNC, and Kingwa did not tell me the ACSS is for BNC, when I asked him about swapping RCA for BNC, though he probably think I was concerned about the input only. For strange reason most high end  CD/SACD players don't have BNC out. I guess it is not that popular. 

Do people prefer BNC out over HDMI ?  Or vice versa ?


----------



## FredA

Chopin75 said:


> ok , yes it works! Now I am using my BNC cable from to R7 direct. I don't think Magna realize the ACSS is BNC, and Kingwa did not tell me the ACSS is for BNC, when I asked him about swapping RCA for BNC, though he probably think I was concerned about the input only. For strange reason most high end  CD/SACD players don't have BNC out. I guess it is not that popular.
> 
> Do people prefer BNC out over HDMI ?  Or vice versa ?


Have not tried lately but i prefered hdmi last time i tried. It's more raw.  And aes/ebu to bnc, but likely because of the cable (dhlabs d110).


----------



## newabc

FredA said:


> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/DH-Labs-Sil...512933?hash=item23e2c677a5:g:cn8AAOSw3ydVlA1U


Hi Fred, this seller "audiophileanswers" (link) is also selling the same spec cable (same cable model and same plug model) as "audiohobby.au", how do you think about the termination qualities of both of them? 

$100 is a pretty good price point for a solid silver cable if them terminated well as the factory products like Oyaide. My source is a RCA and I am not brave enough to change it and the DI-20 input to BNC connecters.


----------



## Chopin75

newabc said:


> Hi Fred, this seller "audiophileanswers" (link) is also selling the same spec cable (same cable model and same plug model) as "audiohobby.au", how do you think about the termination qualities of both of them?
> 
> $100 is a pretty good price point for a solid silver cable if them terminated well as the factory products like Oyaide. My source is a RCA and I am not brave enough to change it and the DI-20 input to BNC connecters.


Note the silver sonic is siiver plated only, Oyaida is solid silver.   Also King-Wa. states the input RCA cannot be switched to BNC due to size issue in the small space. I wish the BNC clock input can be used but surely it is not the correct connector. BNC input would be quite useful you have a BNC from your transport/server, though that is  not common


----------



## FredA (Mar 6, 2021)

newabc said:


> Hi Fred, this seller "audiophileanswers" (link) is also selling the same spec cable (same cable model and same plug model) as "audiohobby.au", how do you think about the termination qualities of both of them?
> 
> $100 is a pretty good price point for a solid silver cable if them terminated well as the factory products like Oyaide. My source is a RCA and I am not brave enough to change it and the DI-20 input to BNC connecters.


Seems like a cable dhlabs made themselves, the connector should be good.

More info on dhlabs.com

https://silversonic.com/products/digital-cables/d-750/


----------



## newabc

Chopin75 said:


> Note the silver sonic is siiver plated only, Oyaida is solid silver.   Also King-Wa. states the input RCA cannot be switched to BNC due to size issue in the small space. I wish the BNC clock input can be used but surely it is not the correct connector. BNC input would be quite useful you have a BNC from your transport/server, though that is  not common


Its 0.5m silver-plated cable for $100 is a little bit high, comparing to the Oyaida's 0.7m solid silver one. And Oyaida brand is well known already. Maybe DH Labs paid too much in testing their possible formulas when they developed such model.


----------



## Chopin75

newabc said:


> Its 0.5m silver-plated cable for $100 is a little bit high, comparing to the Oyaida's 0.7m solid silver one. And Oyaida brand is well known already. Maybe DH Labs paid too much in testing their possible formulas when they developed such model.


yah, I have. Oyaide Solid SILver BNC and RCA cable. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the solid silver HDMI any more


----------



## Chopin75 (Mar 7, 2021)

FredA said:


> Seems like a cable dhlabs made themselves, the connector should be good.
> 
> More info on dhlabs.com
> 
> https://silversonic.com/products/digital-cables/d-750/


DH lab do make great cables. I have their USB and Optic cable. The optical cable is particularly nice, can beat a RCA SPDIF cable, I was planning to perhaps try their HDMI but I am thinking more of either wireworld or Chord company now


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> Its 0.5m silver-plated cable for $100 is a little bit high, comparing to the Oyaida's 0.7m solid silver one. And Oyaida brand is well known already. Maybe DH Labs paid too much in testing their possible formulas when they developed such model.


I have the original d-75. I think i prefer it to the oyaide. And the d110, it is awesone.


----------



## Chopin75

The DI-20 is breaking in more now. The raw edge is less so on HDMI which has been a bit more so before. BNC via ACSS is sounding quite smooth and brighter than my DH lab AES cable (but it it copper).  HDMII is definitely likely the winner when all burned in. But the other options do offer nice alternative sound, I suppose.  Not sure why Kingwa skipped the optical out (I suppose no one wants it), though optical out can allow a longer cable with less degradation, though I suppose one can also use the AES if long cable is needed.

Has anyone tried HDMI fro Chord company:
https://www.thecableco.com/c-view-hdmi.html


----------



## sakso136

Hi guys ,
I want your expertise on the choice of usb/ spdif converter.
My server/stremer is usb out only,my newly( not arrived yet) dac,abbas esoteric 3.1 dac is spdif input only.
I m planning to borrow my friend singxer su1to play with when the dac arrives.
I ve read here that the best is the audio gd 20 he,but i read that is quite problematic and complicated to set,software issues updates... I want to avoid hassles ,but if it is worth it,i ll go for it.
My choices are su1 ,su6 or the he20.
Conversion from usb to coax is straight forward but i have a question regarding clocking.
I have etherregen here and after i clocked it in the pass with gpsdo clock( now sold) ,it is essential for me to clock it again.
Can i use the su6 or he20 clock to clock it?
Another question,i want to use tv sound,but the optical output is out of service,can i use hdmi arc out to su6 or he 20 or su1?
What would be your choice for my situation ,i want the best sound quality.
Thks


----------



## newabc

I am very interested on using a win 7/10 as guest in the vmware workstation/vmplayer to connect to the usb blaster(that will be much easier to capture the screen including the booting process of the guest OS, and will not need to uninstall my installed drivers on my host machine). Just found a discussion on this with version Quartus 16.x.

Just put a link here: Programming problems with VMware and Windows 10


----------



## FredA

sakso136 said:


> Hi guys ,
> I want your expertise on the choice of usb/ spdif converter.
> My server/stremer is usb out only,my newly( not arrived yet) dac,abbas esoteric 3.1 dac is spdif input only.
> I m planning to borrow my friend singxer su1to play with when the dac arrives.
> ...


No and no.

What you need is a 10M clock with multiple outputs, including a 50ohms for the di20he. HDMI is not possible, it uses the i2s protocol on these converters.  It's not even an input, it is just an i2s out.


----------



## Jandu

newabc said:


> I am very interested on using a win 7/10 as guest in the vmware workstation/vmplayer to connect to the usb blaster(that will be much easier to capture the screen including the booting process of the guest OS, and will not need to uninstall my installed drivers on my host machine). Just found a discussion on this with version Quartus 16.x.
> 
> Just put a link here: Programming problems with VMware and Windows 10


The process is quite easy, as long as the USBlaster is recognized and driver installed. But this two steps cause a lot of grief to some.


----------



## newabc

Jandu said:


> The process is quite easy, as long as the USBlaster is recognized and driver installed. But this two steps cause a lot of grief to some.


I knew it is easy on the host machine. So I documented this and Kingwa posted it on his website. I want to do a better document but I don't want to uninstall the usb blaster drivers already installed on the host.


----------



## Jandu

newabc said:


> I knew it is easy on the host machine. So I documented this and Kingwa posted it on his website. I want to do a better document but I don't want to uninstall the usb blaster drivers already installed on the host.


Thanks, for doing this. But I think when most people run into issues, it is these steps that trip people up. Or maybe it's my way of saying, how to resolve these issues would be just as critical.


----------



## sakso136

FredA said:


> No and no.
> 
> What you need is a 10M clock with multiple outputs, including a 50ohms for the di20he. HDMI is not possible, it uses the i2s protocol on these converters.  It's not even an input, it is just an i2s out.


Ok thks for the info!
I was thinking the gisemann clock for etherregen,but etherregen is 75ohm i think.
20 he is 50 ohm,so i need to check a clock with 75 ohm for ER and one 50 ohm for he20.
Regarding sound quality ,any advice.....
Thks


----------



## FredA

sakso136 said:


> Ok thks for the info!
> I was thinking the gisemann clock for etherregen,but etherregen is 75ohm i think.
> 20 he is 50 ohm,so i need to check a clock with 75 ohm for ER and one 50 ohm for he20.
> Regarding sound quality ,any advice.....
> Thks


Some ebay clock can be ordered with a mix of the 50 and 75 ohms. The di20he can possibly be custom- ordered with a 75ohm clock input.


----------



## PLGA

sakso136 said:


> Hi guys ,
> I want your expertise on the choice of usb/ spdif converter.
> My server/stremer is usb out only,my newly( not arrived yet) dac,abbas esoteric 3.1 dac is spdif input only.
> I m planning to borrow my friend singxer su1to play with when the dac arrives.
> ...



I have the same issue as you, an OXCO (a cheap one I bought on ebay) with two 50 Ohm outputs, the DI-20 with one 50 Ohm clock input and ER with one 75 Ohm input (I didn't realize I could order it with 50 Ohm clock input when I bought the ER).

Alex Crespi from Uptone recomended me to buy the following 50 to 75 Ohm adaptor for the ER:   https://www.adark.co/collections/cybershaft/products/cybershaft-50ω-整合器-cyb-ma01   Price is in hong kong dollars, about U$S 40 plus shipping.

I ordered one and a Teradak PSU for the clock. I will get them in about 1.5/2 months. I will post my impressions then. If it's a nice upgrade, maybe I can think about upgrading the clock. 

By the way, I've never had any problems with the DI-20 really. Upgrading the firmware it's not really that complicated and it can keep on improving SQ after time and it never failed working with my R8 DAC or my R7-HE DAC since I have it. I only tested HDMI and AES/EBU.


----------



## sakso136

PLGA said:


> I have the same issue as you, an OXCO (a cheap one I bought on ebay) with two 50 Ohm outputs, the DI-20 with one 50 Ohm clock input and ER with one 75 Ohm input (I didn't realize I could order it with 50 Ohm clock input when I bought the ER).
> 
> Alex Crespi from Uptone recomended me to buy the following 50 to 75 Ohm adaptor for the ER:   https://www.adark.co/collections/cybershaft/products/cybershaft-50ω-整合器-cyb-ma01   Price is in hong kong dollars, about U$S 40 plus shipping.
> 
> ...


Thks a lot


----------



## PLGA

sakso136 said:


> Thks a lot



If you get it before me, please post your impressions saying wich OXCO and PSU are you using to feed the ER and the DI-20.


----------



## sakso136

PLGA said:


> If you get it before me, please post your impressions saying wich OXCO and PSU are you using to feed the ER and the DI-20.


I m planning to buy the ddc first.
I think there here who compared to su1 and su6 and say the d20 he is the best.
I think i will go for it first.
After i will go for gisemann clock i think with dual output,one for ER one for su6.
By the way,my friend just received today farad super 3 lps with y dc cable from david laboga,to power ER and edge router.
He s floored! He sent me video,it is amazing improvements.
Anybody here can support ,confirm my choice for d20 he and wich coax cable is recommended.
Thks


----------



## Oepsie

Had a friend over last night to try his LPS for my OXCO clock again. Its really amazing the influence of the LPS for the clock (and a bit worrying). My DI20 is the nonHE version and we tried with an isolating transformer as well and that gave a nice improvement. Together with the OXCO clock, the isolating transformer really improves on the natural sound and character of the already amazing DI-20.

But frustrating that power matters this much in the digital chain.. lots of LPSs needed 

Had a similar experience with a friend's setup where we tried my Paul Hynes SR4T LPS with his OXCO clock; even more natural sounding and realistic character than his low-budget r-core LPS.


----------



## Chopin75

Oepsie said:


> Had a friend over last night to try his LPS for my OXCO clock again. Its really amazing the influence of the LPS for the clock (and a bit worrying). My DI20 is the nonHE version and we tried with an isolating transformer as well and that gave a nice improvement. Together with the OXCO clock, the isolating transformer really improves on the natural sound and character of the already amazing DI-20.
> 
> But frustrating that power matters this much in the digital chain.. lots of LPSs needed
> 
> Had a similar experience with a friend's setup where we tried my Paul Hynes SR4T LPS with his OXCO clock; even more natural sounding and realistic character than his low-budget r-core LPS.


What type of OXCO clock are you using ? So it beats the internal clock of the DI-20 ?


----------



## Oepsie

Chopin75 said:


> What type of OXCO clock are you using ? So it beats the internal clock of the DI-20 ?


I’m using this one:






Sorry, cannot send precise link, it does not work anymore 

But the clock is very sensitive to the 12 volt lps as well as mentioned and takes 20 minutes to become stable - not suitable in comsumer products maybe 

The improvement is noticable though: even more realism, better sound decay/symbils, better/more natural separation of instruments.

Also notice that I still have experiments with the different firmwares to do - I’m on 3.9 still.


----------



## newabc

Ordered a DH Labs D-750 0.5m RCA-RCA cable from ebay seller "audiophileanswers" and received. Haven't tested yet.
The item was shipped from zip code 32615, which is on the contact address of DH Labs. I think the item was shipped directly from DH Labs.


----------



## FredA

newabc said:


> Ordered a DH Labs D-750 0.5m RCA-RCA cable from ebay seller "audiophileanswers" and received. Haven't tested yet.
> The item was shipped from zip code 32615, which is on the contact address of DH Labs. I think the item was shipped directly from DH Labs.


Let us know how it is. Should normally by excellent at the price.


----------



## Toni-Mang

My clock experience is different as mentioned before.
I have a 8663-XS OCXO Oscilloquartz with an LPS and it decrease the resolution in my opinion.
The internal clocks give more information in my chain, tested with 3.993 and 4.076.
Best setup for me is stock with the DI20HE and I2S to the May.


----------



## roni44

Still using GPSDO clock with DI-20 90/98M, haven't got around LPS for both GPSDO and DI-20, GPSDO still out perform internal DI-20 clock.


----------



## PLGA

Toni-Mang said:


> My clock experience is different as mentioned before.
> I have a 8663-XS OCXO Oscilloquartz with an LPS and it decrease the resolution in my opinion.
> The internal clocks give more information in my chain, tested with 3.993 and 4.076.
> Best setup for me is stock with the DI20HE and I2S to the May.



I have the same clock and a Teradak LPS for it coming soon. I will try it latter on and post my opinion, but those are somehow bad news for me! I hope I can have a different experience with mi DI-20 (non HE).

Wich LPS and BNC cable do you have? Have you tried a different (more expensive) OCXO with your DI-20HE?


----------



## Deolum

Is streamer -> dac via I2S worse than
streamer -> DI-20 via USB -> Dax via I2S?


----------



## falcon70

Deolum said:


> Is streamer -> dac via I2S worse than
> streamer -> DI-20 via USB -> Dax via I2S?


I’ve never tested it, but I think the result depends on the quality of the streamer’s I2S output.
I have a Magna Mano Ultra (raspberry based) streamer with very good quality I2S.
Does anyone know non-raspberry based streamers with I2S output?


----------



## Toni-Mang (Mar 17, 2021)

PLGA said:


> Wich LPS and BNC cable do you have? Have you tried a different (more expensive) OCXO with your DI-20HE?



I hope your result will differ from mine. My LPS is the 25W Talmea standard LPS, with the LED Voltage display on the front and a switch. My DI20HE sounds stock the best, even better than the MAY USB input which is already one of the better USB inputs. The DI20HE soundstage is deeper, but not wider...i am looking at depth, width and imaging…and with the ocxo the image is not as precise and the highs are less resolved and smeared…the cable is a standard 75O cable…maybe it is a result of the cable and the LPS, but for me, i will not do any further investment in this direction...


----------



## FredA

Toni-Mang said:


> I hope your result will differ from mine. My LPS is the 25W Talmea standard LPS, with the LED Voltage display on the front and a switch. My DI20HE sounds stock the best, even better than the MAY USB input which is already one of the better USB inputs. The DI20HE soundstage is deeper, but not wider...i am looking at depth, width and imaging…and with the ocxo the image is not as precise and the highs are less resolved and smeared…the cable is a standard 75O cable…maybe it is a result of the cable and the LPS, but for me, i will not do any further investment in this direction...


Of course, get a RG400 on ebay. 75ohm is no good.


----------



## Toni-Mang (Mar 18, 2021)

Thank you, I will give it a try, you are right, the impedance of RG59 is wrong and might result in a wave (DI is 50 in)...this could explain the smeared high frequencies.
Your shared experience is very welcome as always.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I would like to request some help.

I needed to reinstall the combo384 firmware.

I followed the instructions on oemtools117 and erased di firmware with red button, and then flashed CPLD.  It worked.  Then I disconnected and reconnected usb several times as instructed and then tried to flash cpu.

My pc claimed I needed to erase di firmware before doing so  However, I did that before flashing CPLD..

I am using 1080.  Should I be using version 1081?  Does it work the same?


----------



## sajunky (Mar 18, 2021)

You can find typical cable parameters in comparison table. Read notes on the top, it is important.

Note that some parameters are irrelevant in this application, by example loss/ft and Vmax, others are. OD is critical, will tell you whether cable will fit the connector. A solid type of dielectric gives a largest time delay. A different dielectric type will balance a choice between square and a sine clock. I am not an expert to make suggestions, but I think that generally for a clock application solid dielectric should be avoided (even on such short distances).

Big brands like Belden offer number of improvements to the standard specification and quality control matters. It can be more important than minor differences in a table. LMR types are not covered by a standard MIL specification, but some are improved versions of RG-types.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 18, 2021)

rsbrsvp said:


> I would like to request some help.
> 
> I needed to reinstall the combo384 firmware.
> 
> ...


Follow a guide on the Audio GD website instead. A difference between Amanero standard module is that unplugging USB cable doesn't reset Amanero module. You have to power off DI-20 instead.


> 2) ERASE THE FLASH
> Connect the DI20-HE to your computer using USB cable. Press the update button for 2 seconds. Then unplug the USB cable and *shut the DI20-HE down*.
> Reconnect the USB cable and power the DI20-HE up


The same applies in the further steps, I think (as I have to do it on my R2R11). You can also follow Amanero PDF guide (after pressing a red button), but when you see "unplug the USB cable", power down DI-20/HE instead.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I powered off instead of usb disconnect.  IT WORKED.
I now ave music working but in device manager it claims tat amereno384 is missing driver.  How do I get the driver?

Again- it works- I have music, but pc claims no drver.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 18, 2021)

Reinstall Amanero driver.

Ooops, sorry. Download the latest driver from Amanero website.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I got the latest 1080..


----------



## FredA

Hi guys. 

I assembled my hdmi i2s cabke based on the dhlabs reunion cat8 bulk cable today. I had to cut a 35cm length and strategically give the two connectors the proper angle from one another as it is a very stiff cable. To make it work, the shield as to be used as ground. 

To make a story very short, it easily beats the Belden Series Fe. It is more fluid and resolved, more organic and relax. I am very happy with it. Not an easy an project. The hdmi connectors are from aliexpress.

Highly recommended.


----------



## PeterCraig

Where do I place my order 😆


----------



## FredA

PeterCraig said:


> Where do I place my order 😆


I have a couple to make first, i will see what i can do.

Maybe Kingwa should sell such cables 80-100$ a piece.


----------



## PeterCraig

Yeah I really like DH Labs too


----------



## FredA

Their d110 cablen is great, i have a d75 too. Great cie.


----------



## newabc (Mar 20, 2021)

The D-750 RCA-RCA SPDIF cable after a week of burn-in:
Comparing to Kingwa's Canare-based RCA SPDIF cable(which is only $33 for 1 meter), fuller body on bass and sub-bass, more micro details.

A little issue: The heads are a bit loose. It is not easy to make them as firm as Kingwa's one.


----------



## FredA (Mar 21, 2021)

newabc said:


> The D-750 RCA-RCA SPDIF cable after a week of burn-in:
> Comparing to Kingwa's Canare-based RCA SPDIF cable, fuller body on bass and sub-bass, more micro details.
> 
> A little issue: The heads are a bit loose, not easy to make them as firm as Kingwa's one.


These connectors seems like the kind that  can be tightened. Once installed, hold the base of it and turn the gripping part counterclockwise.


----------



## andy663

If anybody UK based is after one of these, let me know.


----------



## Thinman

The time it takes to burn in this thing is absolutely crazy, clocking in on 750 hrs now and this device has gone from soft poo to amazing eargasm to snore to bloom deluxe to absolute crap to blah blah to okish to finally (?) fantastic.


----------



## Thinman

...and the idiots over at ASR who questions burn-in as something to do with psychoacoustical issues, as if this has all been in my head, yea right.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 26, 2021)

Thinman said:


> ...and the idiots over at ASR who questions burn-in as something to do with psychoacoustical issues, as if this has all been in my head, yea right.


Burn-in process is only detected when transparency is reaching comfortable level. Our brain is switching to a higher sensitivity level and seems there is no limit. This is a reason why audiophiles never stop searching.

Below a comfortable level of transparency we are unable to detect such subtle changes, they are masked by interferences, so burn-in do not progress. ASR have got strong ground loops in a measuring gear. It is shown on some measurements, examples are TotalDAC Six or Audio GD R2R-11 tests. Probably in all cases when 50/60Hz (expensive) power regenerator was used (which is not always communicating with us), it is detected by a presence of both 50Hz and 60 Hz traces on the dashboard plot.


----------



## FredA (Mar 26, 2021)

The typical burn-in time is a thousand hours for 98% of the peformance. The 2% left takes 4-6 months.

The big audio-gd  power amps are the craziest to run in. They are lifeless for months.


----------



## Thinman

Fascinating. One could wish Kingwa would sell his gear burned-in to avoid frustration from his customers. I was ready to throw this thing out the window.


----------



## FredA

The HE dacs and amps sound well from day 1. They improve also with time, take about the same burn-in, but the first 1000 hours are not painful.

The di20he is litterally a roller coaster. Fasten your seat belt. It is a nightmare to burn-in. But the m3 is even worst.


----------



## newabc

In my experience on DI-20, after over a month's burn-in(I just output the SPDIF signal to DI-20 without powering-on the DAC) with the original firmware, the burn-in needed for the newly flashed firmware for 1 week should be OK.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have a nimak usb purple for sale if any interest...


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I have a nimak usb purple for sale if any interest...


You should tell you are upgrading to another Nimak! I have a Purple too, it performs very well. Waiting for another acss 5 to come in, along with an x18 power cable, which is the size of a big snake.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Apr 2, 2021)

I am not upgrading to a new nimak.  I am going in a different direction.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I am not upgrading to a new nimak.  I am going in a different direction.


Ah excuse my assumption.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Well, I was looking into the new nimak but decided against it.

Nothing to excuse.  Fred, you are a wonderful  headfier who has shared much with all of us.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Well, I was looking into the new nimak but decided against it.
> 
> Nothing to excuse.  Fred, you are a wonderful  headfier who has shared much with all of us.


Thanks. So what are you up to? You won't need a usb cable anymore?


----------



## FredA (Apr 2, 2021)

As for me, i decided to take a chance on the top spec of this 10M clock:

https://www.adark.co/collections/pr...e-integrals-integrated?variant=32223822839926

Thanks to @emeeve for pointing this website to me. Adrian,  the guy at Afterdark,  is based in HK and speaks excellent English and is very nice to deal with. He will customize the 3 outputs to square, and two of them to 50ohm. If all goes smoothly, i should get it within the next 2 weeks.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> Thanks. So what are you up to? You won't need a usb cable anymore?


I bought a sablon 2020 usb.  I love nimak cables but the owner does not offer an audition and I need the option to return.  I bought the sablon with a trial period and was shocked.  More transparent, more detail, more natural.  Less full sounding than nimak purple, but to my ears more CLEARLY more correct.

I can't listen to the nimak anymore..


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I bought a sablon 2020 usb.  I love nimak cables but the owner does not offer an audition and I need the option to return.  I bought the sablon with a trial period and was shocked.  More transparent, more detail, more natural.  Less full sounding than nimak purple, but to my ears more CLEARLY more correct.
> 
> I can't listen to the nimak anymore..


Nice to know. I will stick to the purple for quite a while though.  It's the best i have tried so far. Can't complain much, i have awesome sound quality pretty much everyday of the week.


----------



## emeeve

rsbrsvp said:


> Well, I was looking into the new nimak but decided against it.
> 
> Nothing to excuse.  Fred, you are a wonderful  headfier who has shared much with all of us.


...totally agree that @Fred is an incredible headfier, from whom I've learnt a great deal. Thanks much @Fred for all your patience to get this newbie on the right path to truly exploiting every once of pleasure from my set-up...your experienced insight is truly invaluable!


----------



## FredA

emeeve said:


> ...totally agree that @Fred is an incredible headfier, from whom I've learnt a great deal. Thanks much @Fred for all your patience to get this newbie on the right path to truly exploiting every once of pleasure from my set-up...your experienced insight is truly invaluable!


It's always a plasure for me to help.  It makes me very happy, so thanks.


----------



## barbz127

Still on the fence about whether or not a DI20 will do anything fo my r27( 2021 model) but wondering if there's any easy ways to setup the DI20 to burn in? 

Do you need a source and output connected or is a source enough, just leave it connected to a old pc playing music 24/7.

Thankyou


----------



## FredA (Apr 3, 2021)

barbz127 said:


> Still on the fence about whether or not a DI20 will do anything fo my r27( 2021 model) but wondering if there's any easy ways to setup the DI20 to burn in?
> 
> Do you need a source and output connected or is a source enough, just leave it connected to a old pc playing music 24/7.
> 
> Thankyou


Ask Kingwa. I doubt so unless you use an external clock, which brings a small updrade. 

The method you describe for burn-in will work but the outputs will then need 48-72h to work optimally.

The di20he is  a safer bet to get an upgrade. It makes the sound more bassy and organic.


----------



## Articnoise

rsbrsvp said:


> I bought a sablon 2020 usb.  I love nimak cables but the owner does not offer an audition and I need the option to return.  I bought the sablon with a trial period and was shocked.  More transparent, more detail, more natural.  Less full sounding than nimak purple, but to my ears more CLEARLY more correct.
> 
> I can't listen to the nimak anymore..



I have the Sablon 2020 USB and like it very much together with Zenith 3 and DI-20HE.


----------



## rsbrsvp

The Nimak is definitely fuller,  more impactful as well.   The sablon is leaner, more transparent,  more natural, arier.

If one wants more slam and body, nimak purple is superb.  For the more complete dissapearing act, although still not 100%, the sablon is more "not there."


----------



## Articnoise

I have the Phasure Audio _Lush_^2. Its a fine cable with a very full and rich sound. After geting and comparing with the Sablon 2020 USB I could not go back. My Sablon is not lean nor does it lack impact.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Articnoise said:


> I have the Phasure Audio _Lush_^2. Its a fine cable with a very full and rich sound. After geting and comparing with the Sablon 2020 USB I could not go back. My Sablon is not lean nor does it lack impact.


Nor is mine lean or lacking impact.  Only that it is leaner than the Nimak.  But it is superior, clearly.


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## DecentLevi (Apr 16, 2021)

Hey guys just wanted to report on the difference power cables can make with the DI-20. I had the *Aurora 7 cable from Wireworld *laying around from it's use with former amps, which BTW made a significant difference especially along with a top-class power conditioner, but even without it was still able to yield a better sound than a generic power cable into a standard power outlet. Better in this case was more organic, rich, smooth and detailed.



So just yesterday I thought I'd try it into the DI-20. Thinking it may not do anything because my DI-20 must have already reached it's peak potential, I thought - what the heck. Boy was I WRONG! The sound of the DI-20 now can only be described with words such as spectacular and engulfing... eclipsing just about anything you can imagine! It went from sounding fantastic with great realism, authority and detail to sounding totally lucid with engulfing realism,  deeper into the scene and  smoother details. I had a few songs with fatiguing treble that I dealt with because I thought that was just the way it was recorded - but now the treble manages to be even more detailed but at the same time less tiresome. I'm now getting better bass, more holographic sound and everything is more organic / true to life, along with the smoother treble lets me turn up the volume more with less fatigue. Just plain luscious!

Interestingly I had already written off the merits of aftermarket power cables with the DI-20, being that I already had a failed experiment a while back. I took a standard power cable like the thicker black one shown in the middle of the photo below and tried a few ferrite clamps (ferrite beads / chokes) of different ratings on it, but IMO it only had negative impact on the sound; edgier or more dull accordingly; since then I was happy with just the standard medium-thick cord - that is, until I tried the Aurora 7 cable. Also note that yes I did a few A/B comparisons with these cables and the difference was repeatable not subtle.




My theory on why this has such a big impact on the sound would have to do with overall clean power in my chain. Logically you cannot get a "better quality" binary stream of 0's and 1's coming out of this DDC by improving power filtering. So what's going on here? Certainly part of it must have to do with better EMI/RFI, etc. rejection inside the DI-20, but I think a lion's share of the difference is also due to the fact that supplying cleaner power to your DI-20 also has the effect of trickling down this cleaner power to the rest of your chain; IE to your DAC. My Chord Qutest DAC this is connected to already uses a very high performing (and affordable) linear DC power conditioner (LPS); the only one in the world exactly like it thanks to a custom request to @Triode User . Now instead of feeding my DAC clean DC power and 'iffy' signal and/or power from the BNC cable that comes from the DI-20, now both cables are giving it ultra clean power, and the sound I'm getting is just incredible.

Of course YMMV a lot, depending on your chain especially the chosen DAC, existence of any power conditioner and/or power conditioning cables, and if your DI-20 is the standard or HE version. I have the normal version but IIRC the HE version has a separate power section so may/not benefit from such power filtering. For me the sound I'm getting is a culmination of this and many customizations including very premium specific ferrite chokes on USB cable from PC to the DDC and more on the BNC output cable, thick silver RCA audio cable, etc. And by no means do I proclaim this to be the 'world's best' option, this 5-foot (custom length) cable went for only $150 and there are numerous other options out there including pricier as well.

For me though this is the best I've ever heard the DI-20 anyway... and in a bit I will finally try the newer firmware from October.


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## DecentLevi (Apr 12, 2021)

Super brief notes on newer firmware impressions:

- Coming from V 4.07Beta which to me was a legend, a breakthrough in fidelity with a very vivid, detailed and extended sound.
- V 3.933: highly detailed, even perhaps to the point of fatiguing.
- V 4.076: as detailed as above but maybe a nuance more laid back. This one focuses on soundstage and will please if that's your focus. Maybe too much emphasis on this and instrument separation.
- V 4.075: Initially it seemed bright, but after brain burn-in, this thing's all you could ask for! Seems to build of my favorite 4.07Beta, but seems to squeeze out that last drop of super bass purity / texture and adds a touch more of that lifelike / organic real world sensation. Bravo!! Nothing under/over done IMO. On my Qutest this like the Beta also sounds better on the "green" filter which seems to round off the top-end extremities a bit and adds just a touch more mids.

All my personal take.


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## FredA

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys just wanted to report on the difference power cables can make with the DI-20. I had the *Aurora 7 cable from Wireworld *laying around from it's use with former amps, which BTW made a significant difference especially along with a top-class power conditioner, but even without it was still able to yield a better sound than a generic power cable into a standard power outlet. Better in this case was more organic, rich, smooth and detailed.
> ​So just yesterday I thought I'd try it into the DI-20. Thinking it may not do anything because my DI-20 must have already reached it's peak potential, I thought - what the heck. Boy was I WRONG! The sound of the DI-20 now can only be described with words such as spectacular and engulfing... eclipsing just about anything you can imagine! It went from sounding fantastic with great realism, authority and detail to sounding totally lucid with engulfing realism,  deeper into the scene and  smoother details. I had a few songs with fatiguing treble that I dealt with because I thought that was just the way it was recorded - but now the treble manages to be even more detailed but at the same time less tiresome. I'm now getting better bass, more holographic sound and everything is more organic / true to life, along with the smoother treble lets me turn up the volume more with less fatigue. Just plain luscious!
> 
> Interestingly I had already written off the merits of aftermarket power cables with the DI-20, being that I already had a failed experiment a while back. I took a standard power cable like the thicker black one shown in the middle of the photo below and tried a few ferrite clamps (ferrite beads / chokes) of different ratings on it, but IMO it only had negative impact on the sound; edgier or more dull accordingly; since then I was happy with just the standard medium-thick cord - that is, until I tried the Aurora 7 cable. Also note that yes I did a few A/B comparisons with these cables and the difference was repeatable not subtle.
> ...


It's all about the fact that noise translates into jitter. Timing is very important. An audio signal has 2 dimensions, amplitude ans time. We are used to inaccuracies with amplitude, as humain being and our hearing is not dead accurate and precise as far as perceiving amplitudes. But we have incredible precision with perceiving timing as this allows locating an object/creature emitting sound. 

Another thing about jitter is it changes the signal's energy distribution in terms of frequencies. So it can impact the tonal balance.


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## sajunky (Apr 12, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Interestingly I had already written off the merits of aftermarket power cables with the DI-20, being that I already had a failed experiment a while back. I took a standard power cable like the thicker black one shown in the middle of the photo below and tried a few ferrite clamps (ferrite beads / chokes) of different ratings on it, but IMO it only had negative impact on the sound; edgier or more dull accordingly; since then I was happy with just the standard medium-thick cord - that is, until I tried the Aurora 7 cable. Also note that yes I did a few A/B comparisons with these cables and the difference was repeatable not subtle.


Congratulations!

I need to add comment on standard cables. How thick is a cable it doesn't matter as currently, there is more mass volume of PVC, less copper. You never know how thick are copper wires, unless you cut wires. The old PC mains cables (when IBM dominated the market) result in better sound than a new ones. Aurora cable (looking from a picture) is shielded on each wire separately and with a power conditioner can bring even better result. A shield allows to move a point where EMI start emiting a noise meters away from the device, it is important.

A surprise in your post comes from a fact that DDC benefits from power cables. Of course, it does... Especially when using I2S interface. In this case a clock is generated on a DDC, a DAC just synchronise to this clock. On the other side, in the configuration where external clock is used, the most importand device is a clock generator device.

Using ferrite clamps is recommended on USB cables, but not on power cables. The whole idea of ferrite chokes is to redirect a flow of ground loops between two devices from interconnects to the power supply chain. If you place a choke on the USB cable you increase impedance for a common mode noise, so a main current will start flowing the easiest path. Now it comes to the point I want to make that placing a choke on the power cable leads to the redirecting current flow to the interconnect cable, it is wrong!

Situation is changing when you place ferrite choke on both power cables (not a individual one). It is easy to do when you follow a general recommendation to lay down power cables together (even tie them together). It increase a common mode impedance for both devices, but a current flow between both devices is unaffected. I recommend to try it. Ordinary chokes from a hardware shop work well, expensive audiophile type is not needed on power cords nor USB cables.


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## davidjus (Apr 12, 2021)

sajunky said:


> Using ferrite clamps is recommended on USB cables, but not on power cables. The whole idea of ferrite chokes is to redirect a flow of ground loops between two devices from interconnects to the power supply chain. If you place a choke on the USB cable you increase impedance for a common mode noise, so a main current will start flowing the easiest path. Now it comes to the point I want to make that placing a choke on the power cable leads to the redirecting current flow to the interconnect cable, it is wrong!
> 
> Situation is changing when you place ferrite choke on both power cables (not a individual one). It is easy to do when you follow a general recommendation to lay down power cables together (even tie them together). It increase a common mode impedance for both devices, but a current flow between both devices is unaffected. I recommend to try it. Ordinary chokes from a hardware shop work well, expensive audiophile type is not needed on power cords nor USB cables.



Sorry, I don't understand very well. You say: " Situation is changing when you place ferrite choke on both power cables (not a individual one). It is easy to do when you follow a general recommendation to lay down power cables together (even tie them together)"


Do you mean both power cables so: DI power cable + Dacs power cable + amps power cable?
One or more pieces of ferrite on each of them?
Can you explain better how do it, or showing some pictures, please?


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## sajunky (Apr 12, 2021)

davidjus said:


> Do you mean both power cables so: DI power cable + Dacs power cable + amps power cable?
> One or more pieces of ferrite on each of them?
> Can you explain better how do it, or showing some pictures, please?


The ideal condition is when there is one power conditioner for all devices, all power cables are laid down close together to reduce EMI emision (or even shielded). It create an uniform power delivery for all devices. Placing a choke on a single cable doesn't make any sense. It makes your setup less uniform, it increase potential diferences between this device and all other. In result a current flow is changing, it will go through interconnects, it is not what you want!

In most cases you want to reduce ground loops between the most sensitible devices. It is usually a DAC and a source. In this case adding a ferrite clamps on the USB cable helps a lot. The same with HDMI cable. In both cases transmission is fully differencial, not affected by a choke, as it works on a common mode signals you want to get rid of and is fully recommended.

In some situation you may want to further reduce common mode noise of these two devices. You probably can't find large enough ferrite to clamp on the all power cables. In this case you will add a clamp on a pair of power cables. It doesn't change a current flow between these two critical devices which is good, but it create potential differences between those and all other, it is a trade off. It will put stress on other connections, in this case on RCA analogue DAC output, less on XLR. What is the best, you will find out only by testing. I can't give universal cure.


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## DecentLevi

FredA said:


> It's all about the fact that noise translates into jitter. Timing is very important. An audio signal has 2 dimensions, amplitude ans time. We are used to inaccuracies with amplitude, as humain being and our hearing is not dead accurate and precise as far as perceiving amplitudes. But we have incredible precision with perceiving timing as this allows locating an object/creature emitting sound.
> 
> Another thing about jitter is it changes the signal's energy distribution in terms of frequencies. So it can impact the tonal balance.


So I guess cleaner power really can give "better quality" binary stream of 0's and 1's. I guess my guess is as good as yours if cleaner power into the DDC has a trickle down effect of improving other connected components as well.


sajunky said:


> Using ferrite clamps is recommended on USB cables, but not on power cables. The whole idea of ferrite chokes is to redirect a flow of ground loops between two devices from interconnects to the power supply chain. If you place a choke on the USB cable you increase impedance for a common mode noise, so a main current will start flowing the easiest path. Now it comes to the point I want to make that placing a choke on the power cable leads to the redirecting current flow to the interconnect cable, it is wrong!
> 
> Situation is changing when you place ferrite choke on both power cables (not a individual one). It is easy to do when you follow a general recommendation to lay down power cables together (even tie them together). It increase a common mode impedance for both devices, but a current flow between both devices is unaffected. I recommend to try it. Ordinary chokes from a hardware shop work well, expensive audiophile type is not needed on power cords nor USB cables.


Insightful points about the potential of ferrite chokes, but I didn't understand the scientific concepts about ground loops and increasing impedance for a common mode or redirecting it. The main thing I do agree on is _What is the best, you will find out only by testing. I can't give universal cure._ I spent countless hours over weeks testing and big bucks transforming my entire hi-fi system with ferrite beads, and I applied them based solely on what sounds good to me. While I do agree that ferrites don't sound good on the AC cable for this DDC, they are 'lifting their weight in gold' so to speak on the AC power cables of my amps and DC power cable going into my USB reclocker/purifier. My DAC doesn't need one being it's powered by a DC LPS. 

I also agree with their benefit on USB cables. My highly extensive testing with numerous A/B's has told me however that in fact audiophile type ferrite chokes make a huge difference. Ordinary ferrite chokes sounded acceptable but the sound really came into its' own when using four of the STAR-TEC LFS (8.5mm size, universal item number: 74272132) series which targets the lower frequencies. It went from sounding OK yet fatiguing to highly organic, smooth treble, great bass weight and dynamics.

I found ferrite chokes can benefit almost ALL cables in my system: most AC/DC cables, USB, BNC, RCA and headphone cables. The trick is to experiment with which type sound good on which cables based on your preference and system synergy. Some cables use only the low or higher frequency ferrite chokes, others use a combination, and some even sound better with the cheap Chinese ones, as is the case of some of my DC and headphone cables. Never use too many or you'll 'choke' the good sounds, and often yields better results to use more clustered together on the 'receiving' side of the cable.

_The difference between the two series is the core material. STAR-TEC ferrites have a NiZn core for supplementary interference suppression in the 1MHz to 1GHz range whereas the STAR-TEC LFS series feature a MnZn core for a low frequency suppression range from 300kHz to 30MHz._

The premium ferrite chokes are able to isolate frequencies much lower than ordinary ferrite chokes like the all black Chinese ones sold for pennies.

Here's how my chosen configuration looks on a BNC cable. (red marking was my indication of a different rating type)




These premium ferrites cost about $4 each and for my whole system it set me back $100's, but to me it was worth every penny because their cumulative effect on the sound is a TOTAL TRANSFORMATION of sound, as if upgrading every single component. I tried several premium brands and am forever a believer in the STAR-TEC brand; also they do have sizes all the way up to 13mm. I would never consider my hi-fi system complete again without them.

Also it's worth repeating that on the DI-20 (non HE), for some reason this benefits more with power conditioner and isolating AC cables than using ferrite chokes on standard AC cables.


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## sajunky (Apr 14, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> _The difference between the two series is the core material. STAR-TEC ferrites have a NiZn core for supplementary interference suppression in the 1MHz to 1GHz range whereas the STAR-TEC LFS series feature a MnZn core for a low frequency suppression range from 300kHz to 30MHz._
> 
> The premium ferrite chokes are able to isolate frequencies much lower than ordinary ferrite chokes like the all black Chinese ones sold for pennies.


These are pretty standard EMI suppression chokes, there are other premium brands. TDK is the most respectful brand, available in many online shops. However I don't recommend using ferrite clamps on coax clock (like in your picture) or  S/PDIF cable. It increase a slew rate of a signal, resulting more jitter, in other words - bad application. The same on the analog unbalanced interconnects. There are better ways to deal with a noise on analog lines than introducing inductors with hysteresis to the audio path. This is what I refer as audiophile type:




Such packages frequently come with marketing bull spreading confusion amoung users, like this:


> Noise suppression filter manufactured using TDK's proprietary low distortion ferrite material
> TDK newly developed a new ferrite material which achieves low distortion while retaining its noise elimination characteristics.


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## Ratephi

Has anybody tested a DI-20HE in combination with a Chord DAVE?


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## tumpux

I dont think the Chord market overlapped much with AGD market..


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## sajunky

Actually DI-20 spreads like corona virus. Ask user @Articnoise, this member asks challenging question at times in the high-end section and is a dedicated Chord user, having Hugo TT2 and DI-20HE in the sig.


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## tumpux

One outta 62,515 makes it more like a haemophilia case.. but please carry on.


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## Articnoise

Of course, you are right about how few people have both a Chord DAC and a DI-20HE.

Many people think that a DDC is only useful for those who want to convert the digital signal to I2S, but I am of a different opinion and use it for both my Pandora DAC and TT2. The sound enhancement provided by DI20HE is the same for both DACs. It is a larger sound image with more blackness and a more transformative sound with more density, without sacrificing any details or transparency. The base is clearly fatter and has both better weight and definition. The biggest improvement, however, is in the mids, which sounds richer and more lifelike.


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## FredA

Articnoise said:


> Of course, you are right about how few people have both a Chord DAC and a DI-20HE.
> 
> Many people think that a DDC is only useful for those who want to convert the digital signal to I2S, but I am of a different opinion and use it for both my Pandora DAC and TT2. The sound enhancement provided by DI20HE is the same for both DACs. It is a larger sound image with more blackness and a more transformative sound with more density, without sacrificing any details or transparency. The base is clearly fatter and has both better weight and definition. The biggest improvement, however, is in the mids, which sounds richer and more lifelike.


Right on. After a few days of burn-in, the di20he gives you a preview of what is can do, and it did put a large smile on my face for the raisons you mentioned. I could not believe it.


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## gimmeheadroom

Are any of you using USB 3.0 ports with the DI-20?

I know the difference between 2.0 and 3.0, 3.1 and gen 1 and 2 should only be speed but there are many reports of USB 3.0 not working with some devices that for some reason need USB 2.0. I thought everything was supposed to compatible but somehow it's not.. hence the question.

I'm looking at two fanless lenovos to drive the DI-20 and maybe the R-8 MK2 directly. One of them has a USB 2.0 port but not a great CPU. The other one has only USB 3.1 gen 2 ports.


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## Jandu

gimmeheadroom said:


> Are any of you using USB 3.0 ports with the DI-20?
> ?.....


Both works on a RPi4b feeding DI20 or R8


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## gimmeheadroom

Thanks, I just sent the question to Kingwa since we have been emailing back and forth. He is a wonderful man who makes wonderful gear! We are so fortunate to have such a person who is an audiophile and engineering genius. And I found him very openminded also


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## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thanks, I just sent the question to Kingwa since we have been emailing back and forth. He is a wonderful man who makes wonderful gear! We are so fortunate to have such a person who is an audiophile and engineering genius. And I found him very openminded also


Kingwa is really nice and honest. You can always count on him for help. And of course he is a genius.


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## sajunky (Apr 25, 2021)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm looking at two fanless lenovos to drive the DI-20 and maybe the R-8 MK2 directly. One of them has a USB 2.0 port but not a great CPU. The other one has only USB 3.1 gen 2 ports.


USB 3.x ports are more noisy. What you need great CPU for? The old Core 2 Duo CPU is sufficient for audio player, even with some EQ addons that require CPU power. Regarding new entry level CPU's, I would double check. One for a presence of 2.0 port (which is better for audio), a second concern is because on some Intel Atom CPUs (recently renamed to Celeron) are simplified USB bridges.


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## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> USB 3.x ports are more noisy. What you need great CPU for? The old Core 2 Duo CPU is sufficient for audio player, even with some EQ addons that require CPU power. Regarding new entry level CPU's, I would double check. One for a presence of 2.0 port (which is better for audio), a second concern is because on some Intel Atom CPUs (recently renamed to Celeron) are simplified USB bridges.


As far as the 3.X ports being noisy, does the DI-20 mitigate that completely, partially, or not at all? I was expecting the DI-20 to make USB noise a non-issue. This new Windows box I'm hoping to find will sit on the rack. It will do away with the contentious 5M USB cable 

I'm not sure I need a great CPU just for audio. To be honest I have no idea what kind of clocks are good enough for running Tidal or Deezer desktop apps etc.

But I thought also to use this fanless box for watching youtube since I don't have any TV or Android box.

I realize I could get a cheap RPI and set it up to stream flac off my LAN but I want foobar to play my SACD rips, access to the desktop apps of the streaming services I have and a way to watch youtube all in one box. So Windows with some amount of power is probably the best single box solution.


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## sajunky (Apr 25, 2021)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm not sure I need a great CPU just for audio. To be honest I have no idea what kind of clocks are good enough for running Tidal or Deezer desktop apps etc.
> 
> But I thought also to use this fanless box for watching youtube since I don't have any TV or Android box.
> 
> I realize I could get a cheap RPI and set it up to stream flac off my LAN but I want foobar to play my SACD rips, access to the desktop apps of the streaming services I have and a way to watch youtube all in one box. So Windows with some amount of power is probably the best single box solution.


Not a CPU power (again). For a video player you need the latest CPU or a modern graphics card (nVidia GT1030 or later). Anything that has a *hardware-based codec for H.265 and VP9 and a relevant HDMI output specification for your TV resolution*. Remember that software based decoder is not good, even with the strongest CPU. Take it under consideration if you want to play movies on PC.

Intel was late incorporating hardware codecs in their CPU's, they tried software implementation, it didn't work. It is why you need the latest CPU or the modern graphics accelerator.


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## gimmeheadroom (Apr 25, 2021)

sajunky said:


> Not a CPU power (again). For a video player you need the latest CPU or a modern graphics card (nVidia GT1030 or later). Anything that has a *hardware-based codec for H.265 and VP9 and a relevant HDMI output specification for your TV resolution*. Remember that software based decoder is not good, even with the strongest CPU. Take it under consideration if you want to play movies on PC.


Thanks. Here are links to the two fanless boxes I can get here. I'll use display port rather than HDMI since I've got a disc player already running HDMI into the monitor. It's not 4K as I hardly watch anything but tech videos on youtube. Not much of a video guy.

This one uses AMD Athlon Silver 3050e
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/deskto...ano-series/ThinkCentre-M75n-IoT/p/WMD00000408

This one
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/deskto...s/ThinkCentre-M90n-IoT/p/thinkcentre-m90n-iot
is sold here with Intel Core i3-8145U instead of the CPU listed on the site.


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## Jandu (Apr 25, 2021)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thanks. Here are links to the two fanless boxes I can get here. I'll use displ.....


[/QUOTE]

If you are using it only for the purposes intended, a RPi4B would cost you less than half and be able to provide you all of the functions that you want with less power consumption, less cost and most of all a better sound. That's including a nice and clean power supply to go with the RPi4b.

The only thing that it does not do is using Foobar, but you have other software which can do the same function for server music/SACD files from your LAN/NAS.


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## gimmeheadroom

Jandu said:


> If you are using it only for the purposes intended, a RPi4B would cost you less than half and be able to provide you all of the functions that you want with less power consumption, less cost and most of all a better sound. That's including a nice and clean power supply to go with the RPi4b.


I don't know of a way to use Tidal or Deezer desktop apps except on Windows. Are you saying a PC -> DI-20 > R8MK2 is not going to sound as good as RPI > R8MK2?



Jandu said:


> The only thing that it does not do is using Foobar, but you have other software which can do the same function for server music/SACD files from your LAN/NAS.


I don't know of any options for playing SACD ISO or DSD from Linux. I had mixed results trying to use mplayer and VLC. Do you have some suggestions for apps?


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## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thanks. Here are links to the two fanless boxes I can get here. I'll use display port rather than HDMI since I've got a disc player already running HDMI into the monitor. It's not 4K as I hardly watch anything but tech videos on youtube. Not much of a video guy.
> 
> This one uses AMD Athlon Silver 3050e
> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/deskto...ano-series/ThinkCentre-M75n-IoT/p/WMD00000408
> ...


I don't know about AMD implementation. There is USB 2.0 port, but I am not aware of any user feedback. As for displaying movies, AMD keep silent on that, I would have to search for. PM if you want.

A second one has no USB 2.0 port. On the other side it is fully adequate for playing movies, even up to 4K (except HDMI is limited to Full HD, but you will be using DisplayPort, which is fine). From the Wikichip page:
- Direct 3D 12 (on Windows 10)
-  HEVC (H.265) profile Main, Main 10, Level 5.1,  max resolution 4K
- VP9 profile 0, 2, max resolution 4K
- H.264, VC1 ...

Good choice for movies. HD Graphics 620 is the first Intel implementation offering full set of hardware codecs.


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## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> I don't know about AMD implementation. There is USB 2.0 port, but I am not aware of any user feedback. As for displaying movies, AMD keep silent on that, I would have to search for. PM if you want.
> 
> A second one has no USB 2.0 port. On the other side it is fully adequate for playing movies, even up to 4K (except HDMI is limited to Full HD, but you will be using DisplayPort, which is fine). From the Wikichip page:
> - Direct 3D 12 (on Windows 10)
> ...


Notebook check says the cheaper one uses onboard Radeon RX Vega 3 graphics. I guess it should be fine since video is not a priority.


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## Jandu

gimmeheadroom said:


> I don't know of a way to use Tidal or Deezer desktop apps except on Windows. Are you saying a PC -> DI-20 > R8MK2 is not going to sound as good as RPI > R8MK2?
> 
> 
> I don't know of any options for playing SACD ISO or DSD from Linux. I had mixed results trying to use mplayer and VLC. Do you have some suggestions for apps?



Just to clarify, for the same amount of money spent on PC, a RPi set up would result in better sound quality. I am just trying to say, the PC links that you have provided, you can get better sound quality with a RPi set up. I am not saying that PC is not as good as RPi. 

For the same money under $1000 limit, PC - DI20 - R8 is not going to sound as good as RPi - DI20 - R8.

Tidal can be set up in MoOde(moodeaudio.org) which can be used to play flac and DSF files.


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## gimmeheadroom

Thanks, I may eventually try the PI but Windows is more convenient for the things I want to do. Also, I need a box close to the R8 that can flash firmware.

I'm not sure why the PI should sound better but I have no info either way.


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## falcon70

Jandu said:


> Just to clarify, for the same amount of money spent on PC, a RPi set up would result in better sound quality. I am just trying to say, the PC links that you have provided, you can get better sound quality with a RPi set up. I am not saying that PC is not as good as RPi.
> 
> For the same money under $1000 limit, PC - DI20 - R8 is not going to sound as good as RPi - DI20 - R8.
> 
> Tidal can be set up in MoOde(moodeaudio.org) which can be used to play flac and DSF files.


My recommendation is the RPI based Mano Ultra streamer produced by Magna Hifi.
It has Fully re clocked I2S output, costs about 1000 USD.
https://magnahifi.com/mano-ultra-music-streamer-high-res/


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Thanks, I saw that. It doesn't support MQA and if I'm gonna use RPi I'll do the software side myself. For now I wanna keep using my regular Windows apps.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 25, 2021)

I looked at the AMD Athlon Silver 3050e, it has a basic codec support as you wrote.
There is conflicting information on the hardware HEVC and Fluid Motion support, but definitely there is no VP9 in hardware. For a light use H.264 support is important, it looks like it has.

Radeon RX Vega graphics Dali, ultra low power, TDP 6W.

Vega features:
Direct 3D 11 (12_1) / 12 (12_1)
Shader model 6.4
Open GL 4.6 (on Linux: 4.6 (Mesa 3D 20.0))
Vulkan 1.2 (Adrenalin 20.1, Linux Mesa 3D 20.0)
Open CL 2.0 (Adrenalin driver on Win7+)
    (on Linux: 1.1 (no Image support) with Mesa 3D, 2.0 with AMD drivers or AMD ROCm)
*Video decoding*: UVD 7 (*)
Video encoding: VCE 4.0 (*)
Fluid Motion ASIC: Yes
TrueAudio: via shaders
FreeSync: 1, 2
HDCP: 1.2, 2.2
PlayReady: No
Displays: 2-6
Max res: 3x7680x4320 @60Hz

* The UVD and VCE were replaced by the Video Core Next (VCN) ASIC in the Raven Ridge APU implementation of Vega
- a part of /drm/amdgpu Linux kernel


----------



## ToddRaymond

Happy Sunday or Monday!

Even though I've read through this entire thread, over the course of its existence, I'm drawing a blank as to whether or not DI-20 and DI-20HE owners have had any issues when playing through tracks of varying sampling rates.  With my SU-6 feeding my R-28, there are no gaps (no relay clicks, and no missing first second or two of a track).  I'm hoping the DI-20 functions in that way as well.


----------



## DACLadder (Apr 26, 2021)

@ToddRaymond   I own a lot of DDCs including the Singxers (SU1, F1, SU6).  Sound quality with the DI20HE beats the Singxers.  Operationally, in my Linux based system, I would say the DI20HEs only tick was transitions from DSD to PCM.  Loud pop originally.  But am running trial Amanero firmware that seems to quell any most noises on these transitions with the Linux systems.  Kingwa is working with Amanero for a permanent solution.  The Linux based pops occur with the internal Amanero USB board and DI20.

Kingwa told me he did not use the Amanero MUTE output as its use affected sound quality negatively.

So we are waiting on different Amanero firmware.  I rarely play DSD files anyway.  PCM has always been flawless. If anyone would like to purchase a SU-6 let me know.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

DACLadder said:


> @ToddRaymond   I own a lot of DDCs including the Singxers (SU1, F1, SU6).  Sound quality with the DI20HE beats the Singxers.  Operationally, in my Linux based system, I would say the DI20HEs only tick was transitions from DSD to PCM.  Loud pop originally.  But am running trial Amanero firmware that seems quell any noises on these transitions with the Linux systems.  Kingwa is working with Amanero for a permanent solution.  The Linux based pops occur with the internal Amanero USB board and DI20.
> 
> Kingwa told me he did not use the Amanero MUTE output as its use affected sound quality negatively.
> 
> So we are waiting on different Amanero firmware.  I rarely play DSD files anyway.  PCM has always been flawless. If anyone would like to purchase a SU-6 let me know.


Interesting, really, what you report.
From my side, after having installed trial Amanero fw on my DI20HE, I am a bit confused on results. Surely it changed the way and "loudness" when pops appears, but not necessarily in a better way. Sometimes pops are really loud, worse than before. Otherwise, I have the sensation that this test fw makes sound a tiny better, and I say this after long listen sessions. Concluding, sometimes I desire to come back to 2006be11. But I didn't do it. AGD gears together with my mutec ref 10 sound so good that I can live hoping and accepting. Amanero seems not so interested in solving quickly this issue, and I do not know if Kingwa will take part in this other than giving his important opinion and suggestions. Another doubt is: all Linux based streamers are affected in same way? I have an Auralic Aries G1, and my reports differ slightly from yours...Let's go on hoping.


----------



## DACLadder

@Il Cuffiotto  I think it is system dependent.  With 2006be11 I get two loud, tweeter busting pops transitioning DSD to PCM.  Now, with the Amanero Linux f/w, I get an occasional ‘tick’ but it is mild and 99% better.  2006be11 may sound slightly better (maybe) on PCM but felt like I was living on the edge trying DSD.  

Until a solid fix it’s a balance of sound quality and what you can tolerate.  I had loud pops a few years with the Gustard U16. Windows, and Foobar2000.  Really bad DSD-PCM amd PCM-DSD.              But the Singxer‘s operate perfectly and give them credit for that.  They just don’t sound as good (in my system).

I pinged Kingwa a few weeks ago about this issue.  He said he sent Amanero a list of issues and waiting test firmware. Seems like a slow process for whatever reasons.


----------



## Mix80

Hi.

Has anyone already tried the firmware for the DI-20 from the Chinese version of the site?
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload_ch.htm
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmware/DAC2021_linux/DP-20_V4.075_linux.rar
It seems to be quite fresh, the firmware for the internal Altera chip and according to the description is related to the latest version of the Amanero firmware, in which Kingva struggled with clicks when switching from DSD to PCM on Linux systems.

Personally, I do not use an OS with a linux kernel, so I can not evaluate the firmware for its intended purpose.
For the ArcaOS system, clicks with a combination of new firmware on Amanero and Altera rather worsened the situation with artifacts when switching.
But, I noticed (significant in my opinion) improvements if you leave the standard Amanero firmware (2006be11) and put a new version of the Altera firmware.
Among the main qualities, I would single out improved sound cleaning from graininess, traces of digital processing.
A very plastic sound, the combination of smoothness and dynamism allows you to absorb albums entirely, without the desire to find something better... any idea of musicians captures the attention.

Please share your opinion about this firmware.
Maybe I messed up something and it doesn't change anything )


----------



## DACLadder

@Mix80. That is interesting!  Specifically R7 2020 and R-1 DAC Linux firmware (Apr 2021) that is coordinated with the Amanero Linux firmware.  Perhaps sign things are happening for us Linux users.  Doesn’t help me with the old R7.

Here’s the English translation of the Chinese firmware download page.
http://www.translatetheweb.com/?fro...tp://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload_ch.htm


----------



## DACLadder

Mix80 said:


> Please share your opinion about this firmware.
> Maybe I messed up something and it doesn't change anything )


Trust your ears.  I many times notice sound differences on firmware changes.  Bass, soundstage, something out of balance, or better than before.  Try to audition for 2 days on any change. I am easily fooled on the quick A/B comparisons.


----------



## ToddRaymond

Thank-you, @DACLadder!  That's really helpful.  DI-20HE it is (soon)!


----------



## barbz127

Could anyone please confirm if all outputs on the di_20 are active at all times?


----------



## myshark

barbz127 said:


> Could anyone please confirm if all outputs on the di_20 are active at all times?


Yes. All output out all the tme on di20.


----------



## Thinman

I am experiencing problems and distorted sound with 24/48 files when streaming from Qobuz and Tidal. Sometimes there is the same issue with 24/96 as well, has anyone else this problem? Have already tried the latest firmware to no avail.


----------



## sajunky (May 2, 2021)

Thinman said:


> I am experiencing problems and distorted sound with 24/48 files when streaming from Qobuz and Tidal. Sometimes there is the same issue with 24/96 as well, has anyone else this problem? Have already tried the latest firmware to no avail.


What is output mode: event driven or push? In Windows there are two WASAPI options. Please describe your source equipment, OS and a player. Is the same on a local playback?


----------



## Thinman (May 2, 2021)

Im using a Innuos Zen server so not using Windows. Also using Roon.


----------



## DACLadder

Thinman said:


> I am experiencing problems and distorted sound with 24/48 files when streaming from Qobuz and Tidal. Sometimes there is the same issue with 24/96 as well, has anyone else this problem? Have already tried the latest firmware to no avail.


USB input?  I use Tidal daily from Aurender (Linux) USB to DI20HE and do not experience any playback issues as described.  Using DI20 3.933 f/w.  I2S and AES/EBU outputs.


----------



## Thinman

Uptone Etherregen>Innuos USB>DI20 HE Coax>Metrum Adagio. Ok, will try 3.933 firmware next.


----------



## sajunky

Thinman said:


> Uptone Etherregen>Innuos USB>DI20 HE Coax>Metrum Adagio. Ok, will try 3.933 firmware next.


Did you try other USB source like laptop directly to DDC? Not to compare SQ, but to find out the place where stream breaks up.


----------



## Thinman

Will do tonight, good suggestion.


----------



## jazzbug

DACLadder said:


> @Mix80. That is interesting!  Specifically R7 2020 and R-1 DAC Linux firmware (Apr 2021) that is coordinated with the Amanero Linux firmware.  Perhaps sign things are happening for us Linux users.  Doesn’t help me with the old R7.
> 
> Here’s the English translation of the Chinese firmware download page.
> http://www.translatetheweb.com/?from=&to=en&dl=en&ref=trb&a=http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload_ch.htm


I have never updated Amanero FW within DI-20, mine Windows Server 2012. Does it mean the Linux and new AGD FW wouldn't apply to my case?


----------



## DACLadder

@jazzbug  Yes, keep what is working for you.  These Linux versions are just a patch until a major release in the near future.


----------



## DecentLevi (May 4, 2021)

Thinman said:


> I am experiencing problems and distorted sound with 24/48 files when streaming from Qobuz and Tidal. Sometimes there is the same issue with 24/96 as well, has anyone else this problem? Have already tried the latest firmware to no avail.


It may have to do with a hardware or firmware glitch of the DI-20 itself. I'm still getting extreme distortion at random times after start-up, even with the new firmware v4.075 (although less frequent than with last year's). It's nearly earsplitting levels and continues until it's reset, or in my case I've been able to usually fix it by cycling through serial/parallel or input modes with the front panel buttons, a troubleshoot hack that may also help you.


----------



## newabc

I forget here or in the R7 & R8 thread someone mentioned a requirement for a extra long USB cable. 
Just post a link about it from the Chord TT2 thread, this post included 3 items: 
(1) Monoprice SlimRun USB-A to USB-A Female 3.0 Extension Cable - Fiber Optic; 
(2) USPCB A>B Adapter;
(3) Anker 5V charger.

Personally, I will recommend a Raspberry Pi or similar(for example, USBridge signature) to be near to the DI-20 and it reads the files from remote server via Ethernet and plays them to the DI-20, other than the above solution.


----------



## sajunky (May 5, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> It may have to do with a hardware or firmware glitch of the DI-20 itself. I'm still getting extreme distortion at random times after start-up, even with the new firmware v4.075 (although less frequent than with last year's). It's nearly earsplitting levels and continues until it's reset, or in my case I've been able to usually fix it by cycling through serial/parallel or input modes with the front panel buttons, a troubleshoot hack that may also help you.


This is not related to a firmware. It is breaking synchronisation, a sign of data errors. Normally errors during USB transfer happen very rare, but it is observed on very long cable >5m, it can be in result of a hardware failure or simply a ground loop problem. On Windows PC with Foobar 2000 I observed exactly the same type of distortions when using WASAPI push mode. In the event mode it breaks a stream for a half second and recovers nicely. The same happens when using Windows 10 native UAC 2.0 drivers. Note that changing to the event mode is not a solution.

Chosing a different cable as suggested helps, but I suggest to investigate a problem. Read this post fix for R2R-11, it can be the same cause. In my case it not only stop occasional breaking synchronisation,  but it end up with improved SQ as well.


----------



## Thinman

Ok, have tried with a laptop and bypassed the Innuos Zen and the Etherregen. Still distortion. In with the Zen again. Changed firmware to 3.933, which seemed to fix the distortion on 24/48 files but after a while i noticed some noise on certain 24/96 files, on others no noise. Changed to 4.075, no change, most files work, some have distortion. It seems there is no pattern to this?


----------



## Articnoise

Thinman said:


> Ok, have tried with a laptop and bypassed the Innuos Zen and the Etherregen. Still distortion. In with the Zen again. Changed firmware to 3.933, which seemed to fix the distortion on 24/48 files but after a while i noticed some noise on certain 24/96 files, on others no noise. Changed to 4.075, no change, most files work, some have distortion. It seems there is no pattern to this?



Have you triad without DI20? If the distortion is surly linked to the DI20 it is best to contact AGD.


----------



## Thinman

Yes, guessing some kind of hardware failure with the clocks, however why it applies to only certain frequencies is odd.


----------



## bos3812

Thinman said:


> I am experiencing problems and distorted sound with 24/48 files when streaming from Qobuz and Tidal. Sometimes there is the same issue with 24/96 as well, has anyone else this problem? Have already tried the latest firmware to no avail.


Hi Thinman, if we talk about the same problem maybe I can help you. I found a way to stop the noise. I have the DI-20 for two weeks now and from the beginning I experienced noise with some files. It's a sort of static noise which rides on the music wave. With other words it's not a constant noise. It goes up and down with the music. 

My streamer is self-build and I play with Euphony with Roon embedded. It's a Linux based program.

You can try the following if you play with Roon. When you experience distortion tap the little purple star next to the play/pause button while the song is playing. You get a pop-up screen showing the signal path. Then tap the three dots. You get a pop-up screen with the words "device set-up" and "DSP". Go to DSP first and enable sample rate conversion. After that go to device setup and then choose another MQA setting and tap "Save". After that start the song again. In my case the static noise is gone and mostly I can play music files the whole day without problems. Sadly it's a temporary solution. The problem will come back. If it occurs again I follow the same procedure and switch between "no MQA support" and "decoder and renderer". 

It's a really strange problem and I only can guess at the cause. Before the DI-20 I had the Singxer SU-1 which never had a problem. 

Hope this will help for you. It's not a definitive solution but I can listen (temporary) without distortion to my music files.

Eric


----------



## Thinman

Eric, thank you for your suggestion. But no, it doesnt work. As Jos of Magna hifi doesnt know what the cause is, i have reached out to AGD and Kingwa.


----------



## bos3812

Thinman said:


> Eric, thank you for your suggestion. But no, it doesnt work. As Jos of Magna hifi doesnt know what the cause is, i have reached out to AGD and Kingwa.


Hi Thinman. That's too bad. Is the distortion you have the same as I described, riding on the music wave, going up and down with the music or is it of a different kind? I also had contact with Jos about the distortion I have (he is a fellow countryman of me) and he also doesn't recognize the distortion I described to him. So I am also interested in the opinion of Kingwa. Can you share his message on this forum?


----------



## Thinman

Eric, no, this distortion is more a kind of constant static like a veil of noise. On 24/96 it is very minor but noticeable. Yes, i will try to share info from AGD when i have it.


----------



## newabc

About industry or lab programmable linear power supply

Hi Di-20 community, has anyone tried an industry or lab used programmable linear power supply to feed your external clock, source, or headphone amp?  That's something like this or this.


----------



## Jandu

newabc said:


> About industry or lab programmable linear power supply
> 
> Hi Di-20 community, has anyone tried an industry or lab used programmable linear power supply to feed your external clock, source, or headphone amp?  That's something like this or this.


i have used one like this with very good results for my transport:

http://daitronglobal.com/products/power/lfs150a.html


----------



## sajunky

As for the universal bench equipment, they are over engineered for this purpose, have a lot of features you never need. All you need is a fixed voltage linear PSU from a DIY shop. Cheaper and likely better.

SMPS from the other post looks nice and is probably much cheaper. However I would use it for testing only. If helps,  I would make a plan to replace it with a quality linear PS. I have some SMPS's from Meanwell, had been used in various situations, good to have for testing.


----------



## newabc

sajunky said:


> As for the universal bench equipment, they are over engineered for this purpose, have a lot of features you never need. All you need is a fixed voltage linear PSU from a DIY shop. Cheaper and likely better.
> 
> SMPS from the other post looks nice and is probably much cheaper. However I would use it for testing only. If helps,  I would make a plan to replace it with a quality linear PS. I have some SMPS's from Meanwell, had been used in various situations, good to have for testing.


The shipping fee takes a large part in the cost of a LPS over $120 from a DIY store on aliexpress, and it won't save much with multiple items. But an industry/lab LPS costs less when we buy from full filled by amazon or multiple pieces from mouser.


----------



## PeterCraig

Ordered a DI-20HE to replace my DI-20. I should have got the HE version in the first place but I was not sure if my M7 dac is revealing enough to make it worth it. 

I could have asked Kingwa if the new R8 MK2 would be a better investment then the M7 + DI-20HE but didn't want to hear that it was and then have to retire my trusty M7. Not yet at least. I still love it dearly. 

I'm very curious to do an a/b comparison with the two DI20s. Let's see what a regenerative power supply can do. My ears are very sensitive to treble (tinnitus) and I'm thinking the HE version will allow me to turn the volume up another few notches. Every time I upgrade my gear I can crank up the volume more without my ears complaining too much afterwards.


----------



## DecentLevi

Isn't the only difference between HE / standard DI-20 versions that the HE version has an isolated internal section for power supply? If so, doesn't a good isolated power cable connected to a decent power conditioner put them both on a level playing field? Just curious anyway.

Moreover, wanting to ask does the DI-20 accept USB cables without DC power? I saw a Pangea USB cable that has dual USB input connections, one for signal and one for power. Multiple reviews said the sound improvement was huge and noticeable; albeit not necessarily paired with the DI-20. Either I could forgo the power connection connecting only the "signal", or maybe even better connect the power to my high performing 5v DC LPS via a special adapter.


----------



## sajunky

DecentLevi said:


> Isn't the only difference between HE / standard DI-20 versions that the HE version has an isolated internal section for power supply? If so, doesn't a good isolated power cable connected to a decent power conditioner put them both on a level playing field? Just curious anyway.
> 
> Moreover, wanting to ask does the DI-20 accept USB cables without DC power? I saw a Pangea USB cable that has dual USB input connections, one for signal and one for power. Multiple reviews said the sound improvement was huge and noticeable; albeit not necessarily paired with the DI-20. Either I could forgo the power connection connecting only the "signal", or maybe even better connect the power to my high performing 5v DC LPS via a special adapter.


The only difference is a regenerative power supply, but I can be wrong.

Audio GD use internal power for the USB receiver. 5V power pin is not connected. Injecting a foreign power supply won't change anything from the DI-20 perspective, but it may redirect ground loops coming from the USB source on the 0V wire and/or a shield. It is worth to try.


----------



## jazzbug

just my experience with dual USB with DI-20HE, it still needs the handshake. With the USB power cable disconnected from computer, my jRiver wouldn't play...


----------



## sajunky

jazzbug said:


> just my experience with dual USB with DI-20HE, it still needs the handshake. With the USB power cable disconnected from computer, my jRiver wouldn't play...


Thank you for feedback and it rings a bell. Actually +5V line is not used for handshaking, but it can be a case that DI-20 is different to the older designs and a module takes a power from USB bus indeed. It makes sense, as in this case Combo384 module is isolated from a DAC.

Can you post a photo of the part of the module, please? [Component side, the area 2cm around USB socket]


----------



## Oepsie (May 22, 2021)

Regarding USB power, my DI-20 is working fine with my SOtM SMS-200 using the booster vbus2 (https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/vbus2-isolator/sbooster-vbus-isolator) which does exactly that: disconnects the vbus power from the USB port.

So I guess it might depend on the computer/streamer also?

The difference, however, is quite noticable in the direction of more natural sound and timbre, better feeling of instruments and tonal impact (not tonal balance but more PRAT related) - difficult to explain, it kind of softens the initial impact of instruments, leaving more room for details.


----------



## patatras

Hi all
Could you tell me please how find the firmare versions of the DI-20 (Amanero and FPGA)?
Thank's

Pierre


----------



## DACLadder

@patatras You can find them in the locations below…
http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/Amanero/AmaneroEN.htm


----------



## patatras

DACLadder said:


> @patatras You can find them in the locations below…
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmwaredownload.htm
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/Amanero/AmaneroEN.htm


Thank's 
How can I see if I have to update my unit ? 

Pierre


----------



## Jandu

patatras said:


> Thank's
> How can I see if I have to update my unit ?
> 
> Pierre


You may not. Some versions are there for different sound signature, depends on your music taste and the rest of equipments, you may find good synergy or not. If you find your existing set up is good, you may not need to update. However, you may want to experiment to see if there is something that suit you better


----------



## patatras

Thank's 
I 'll see what is the best for my taste. 
Pierre


----------



## PeterCraig

patatras said:


> Hi all
> Could you tell me please how find the firmare versions of the DI-20 (Amanero and FPGA)?
> Thank's
> 
> Pierre


Latest versions of the DI20, say since November 2020 have been shipping with V4.075.

For older units you can email Audio-gd with your serial number they should be able to confirm the firmware version it shipped with.


----------



## Baci

After watching this forum for a while I made the leap and purchased a DI-20HE recently. I have a Mac Mini used as a Roon core which outputs via USB to the DI-20HE and from there via AES/EBU to a Musical Paradise MP-D2 Mk 3 tube DAC. When I first integrated the DI-20HE Roon recognised it as a Combo384 Amanero interface, and to be honest who am I to disagree... I have a straight-thru signal path in Roon - no DSP or sample rate conversions. And yet on some tracks there's an enormous amount of distortion. If I was talking about the analogue domain I would absolutely call it clipping on the highs, but a DDC doesn't do analogue. What am I missing here? Do I need to change some settings within Roon? Help!


----------



## sajunky (Jun 11, 2021)

Baci said:


> When I first integrated the DI-20HE Roon recognised it as a Combo384 Amanero interface, and to be honest who am I to disagree... I have a straight-thru signal path in Roon - no DSP or sample rate conversions. And yet on some tracks there's an enormous amount of distortion.


It is Amanero USB receiver inside DI-20HE indeed, it is written on the home page. As for a distortions, are these distortions always happen in the same playing time? If not, then I suspect there are errors on the transmission - and USB transfer is not optimal. If it were optimal, it would be rather a fraction of a second interruptions. How long is USB cable?

Can you use Audirvana for testing? I can't help with MAC, but I know there are tricks to force MAS OS to use bit-perfect transfer, it would also help negotiating USB asynchronous mode. On a MAC there is one official method (which is frequently broken on a number of OS releases) and the other called "Integer mode". Find it on the Roon and Audirvana options. John Attkinson use during reviews an utility for verifying USB transfer mode, check it out, I don't remember the name.


----------



## tumpux

Most likely it’s Roon. 
As have been suggested try to use another software to play the file.


----------



## Dreamer79

PeterCraig said:


> Ordered a DI-20HE to replace my DI-20. I should have got the HE version in the first place but I was not sure if my M7 dac is revealing enough to make it worth it.
> 
> I could have asked Kingwa if the new R8 MK2 would be a better investment then the M7 + DI-20HE but didn't want to hear that it was and then have to retire my trusty M7. Not yet at least. I still love it dearly.
> 
> I'm very curious to do an a/b comparison with the two DI20s. Let's see what a regenerative power supply can do. My ears are very sensitive to treble (tinnitus) and I'm thinking the HE version will allow me to turn the volume up another few notches. Every time I upgrade my gear I can crank up the volume more without my ears complaining too much afterwards.


Hi Peter,

Did you received the DI-20HE? Any news about DI-20 VS DI-20HE?

Thanks


----------



## PeterCraig

Hi Dreamer, 

Nothing to report yet. Except for the DI20HE is a lot bigger then I expected. 

I'm at 675 hours of burn in with changes even today from last night. 

For sure I have had glimpses of what lays ahead. I think it's going to be good news. 

I also didn't have a single issue with the DI20HE.

I'll be back with news in a few weeks. I'll stick the DI20 back in to take a listen for a few days.


----------



## FredA

Baci said:


> After watching this forum for a while I made the leap and purchased a DI-20HE recently. I have a Mac Mini used as a Roon core which outputs via USB to the DI-20HE and from there via AES/EBU to a Musical Paradise MP-D2 Mk 3 tube DAC. When I first integrated the DI-20HE Roon recognised it as a Combo384 Amanero interface, and to be honest who am I to disagree... I have a straight-thru signal path in Roon - no DSP or sample rate conversions. And yet on some tracks there's an enormous amount of distortion. If I was talking about the analogue domain I would absolutely call it clipping on the highs, but a DDC doesn't do analogue. What am I missing here? Do I need to change some settings within Roon? Help!



The bnc out will not work for all dacs in case it is the one you use.

Other than that, the amanero offers volume control. Make sure it is set to 100%.


----------



## barbz127

Would anyone have any comments on how the DI20/he works/helps/hinders reclocking dac's such as the benchmark dac3?


----------



## FredA (Jun 15, 2021)

barbz127 said:


> Would anyone have any comments on how the DI20/he works/helps/hinders reclocking dac's such as the benchmark dac3?


A reclocking dac is most of the time only able to remove a portion of the jitter. Low-freq phase is harder to get rid off and can cause significated blurring to the sound. 

What is more mysterious is dacs like the latest audio-gd, which do not do reclocking per say but rather directly clock the audio data from the internal or external clock signal also benefit. 

The most beneficial scenario with them is when both the di20/he and dac are clocked with the same external unit. The only possible explanation to this IMO is this helps reduce the noise level within the dsp at the critical moment when the clock rises within the dsp ouput .  Because noise within the clock part of the signal going to the conversion board/chip means jitter.


----------



## sajunky

barbz127 said:


> Would anyone have any comments on how the DI20/he works/helps/hinders reclocking dac's such as the benchmark dac3?


You would perhaps need reclocking DDC. 

Seriously, whether a DAC is reclocking with upsampling or not or without reclocking, it doesn't matter. DI-20 will do the same job separating a DAC from noise of your source equipment. HE version will improve separation even more due to  the regenerative power supply. Audio GD policy is to not do reclocking when a source can be synchronised with the internal high quality clock, by example during USB asynchronous transfers.


----------



## Dreamer79

Hi,

I've a Gustard X26 DAC and last week try a Gustard U16 using II2s port with excelent result's, better separation, decay's and a stong and rapid bass from speakers. After results, my intention was purchase a Gustard U16 and a chinese external clock, but when read testimonials of Audio GD - DI20, and the price of U16+Ext.Clock+Better PSU for clock all will cost the same of Audio GD DI20.

Please help me to recommend what is the better purchase and sound Audio GD DI20 vs Gustard U16 with external clock? My DAC is a gustard U16.

Thanks


----------



## FredA (Jun 20, 2021)

Dreamer79 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've a Gustard X26 DAC and last week try a Gustard U16 using II2s port with excelent result's, better separation, decay's and a stong and rapid bass from speakers. After results, my intention was purchase a Gustard U16 and a chinese external clock, but when read testimonials of Audio GD - DI20, and the price of U16+Ext.Clock+Better PSU for clock all will cost the same of Audio GD DI20.
> 
> ...


People have had and still are having problems with the u16. The di20 is a better device. Better sound, better reilability.  For the money, the u16 and external clock are a very good choice soundwise. If you can live with it. I got rid of mine. The guy i sold it to has no issue with it. Or only minor ones. So you get what you pay for. The di20he with the internal sounds better than the u16 with the external. I would assume the di20 does too.


----------



## slazhx (Jun 28, 2021)

Hi guys. First of all, I want to thanks all headfiers in this thread. I've been reading all 192 pages and that kinda enlightened me!

I do have a few basic questions to ask and here below is my current system.

PC (Roon Core) -> / Audiophile Network Swtich -> LAN -> SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo -> USB -> R7HE (2020) or NFB 7.77 -> XLR -> HE9 -> Headphones (HEKse, HE6se)

1. According to Kingwa, we can burn DI-20 by just power on without playing any music. Does this also apply to DACs, Audiophile Network Switch, and Streamer (SOtM)?

2. I have two choices of upgrade. What would you guys comment? I am just interested in using I2S port of R7HE as this thread discussed but also tempted by the Magna streamer that has I2S output too. Maybe I can save money getting it instead of (DI-20 + Streamer) Any comment in term of SQ?

   2.1 get DI-20HE to use with SOtM, or hopefully sell SOtM and get cheaper streamers (w/ same SQ). RP4iB, RP4iB w/ built-in psu by Simple Best, etc.
   2.2 get Mano ULTRA mkII Streamer by magna https://magnahifi.com/mano-ultra-music-streamer-high-res/
          *** its output is already I2S so I don't think we need DI-20HE for this choice?

3. If DI-20HE is a better choice, I might plan to get it around coming X'mas. Is there any rumor about newer version of DI-20HE? Kingwa always keep up with tons of upgraded version / units.

4. Frank question. Which is better IC (R7HE -> HE9) between XLR and ACSS? It is a kind of subjective question but just wondering. For me, I compare mid-end Tchernov XLR cables to stock AGD ACSS cable. Tchernov XLR is better and louder at the same HE9 volume. I don't have any clue about premium ACSS cables apart from Kingwa stock cable ones.

PS, for all SOtM owners. I have chatted with May from SOtM and received promising news that they are developing SOtM streaming app (PC, Mac, Andriod and iOS) and hopefully it will be available in 2022. Undoubtedly, it will be more convenient that its web-based platform, enhatsu.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## FredA (Jun 28, 2021)

arayasg said:


> Hi guys. First of all, I want to thanks all headfiers in this thread. I've been reading all 192 pages and that kinda enlightened me!
> 
> I do have a few basic questions to ask and here below is my current system.
> 
> ...


1. Dacs have to play music to burn the output stages and the d/a boards.
2. I doubt the di20he will be updated anytime soon. I sure can recommend it combined to the usbridge signature ( rpi3b+-based ) transport. It will sound better than with just a regular rpi just using an ebay ultra-low noise psu. It will cost you around 400usd.
3. No
4. Acss. The best i have tried is the Nimak 5 which sells for around 400usd for 1m. Kingwa’s cable is an entry-level


----------



## Jandu

arayasg said:


> Hi guys. First of all, I want to thanks all headfiers in this thread. I've been reading all 192 pages and that kinda enlightened me!
> 
> I do have a few basic questions to ask and here below is my current system.


For#4
Agree with FredA, ACSS is better, assuming same cable quality. A few sources of ACSS cables are available.


----------



## milkdudd

With almost 200 pages, maybe this has already been addressed. Forgive me if that's the case. Is the DI20HE known to be a good match with the Topping D90 dac? The Audio-gd website seems to indicate they will only sell them to people that have their dac due to limited availability. I saw one person say the Singxer SU-2 was a good match with i2s connection. Denafrips Iris? If I could get something that would work well for $500 to $700 that would be great. Thanks in advance


----------



## slazhx

FredA said:


> 1. Dacs have to play music to burn the output stages and the d/a boards.
> 2. I doubt the di20he will be updated anytime soon. I sure can recommend it combined to the usbridge signature ( rpi3b+-based ) transport. It will sound better than with just a regular rpi just using an ebay ultra-low noise psu. It will cost you around 400usd.
> 3. No
> 4. Acss. The best i have tried is the Nimak 5 which sells for around 400usd for 1m. Kingwa’s cable is an entry-level



Hi Fred,

Thank you for your comments. I make a decision to choose the DI-20HE route and will decide which streamer to be sold/used with later. Which ACSS would you recommend? I heard about Nimak but don't know which model is the finest. ACSS 5 or 7? Also, is the length prone to deteriorated SQ similar to HDMI (for I2S) cable? I won't need any longer than 1m.



Jandu said:


> For#4
> Agree with FredA, ACSS is better, assuming same cable quality. A few sources of ACSS cables are available.



Hi Jandu, any ACSS would you recommend?


----------



## Jandu (Jun 29, 2021)

Hi Jandu, any ACSS would you recommend?
[/QUOTE]

I will try, however, your system is differ from mine and your taste of music would not be same as mine, preference can be different as well. 

I did have Kingwa's ACSS and this following one to compare:

https://robertsonaudiocables.com.au...-xlr-3-pin-female?_pos=1&_sid=ae347e705&_ss=r

The solid core silver from RobersonAudio is quite a bit better. I did compared it to a KCAG from Kimber Cable (RCA) and the ACSS connection is also better in my system. Price wise, the KCAG is quite a bit more money.  I use these between a R8HE to HE9.


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> Thank you for your comments. I make a decision to choose the DI-20HE route and will decide which streamer to be sold/used with later. Which ACSS would you recommend? I heard about Nimak but don't know which model is the finest. ACSS 5 or 7? Also, is the length prone to deteriorated SQ similar to HDMI (for I2S) cable? I won't need any longer than 1m.


The 7 is the finest. I have the 5. It is excellent. The shorter the better of course but with these, not a big factor.


----------



## emeeve

The Nimak 3 is no slouch either...haven't found a need to upgrade to the 5 or 7 yet...  Like everything, needs a good burn in...


----------



## FredA

emeeve said:


> The Nimak 3 is no slouch either...haven't found a need to upgrade to the 5 or 7 yet...  Like everything, needs a good burn in...


350 hours or so.


----------



## slazhx

Thanks for your help guys.

The only website I've found about Nimak is on Ebay. Is there any other website or its official website?

The Ebay links is https://www.ebay.com/itm/124580260438?hash=item1d018fea56:g:NToAAOSw88xgLuMz (Seller name: dmarget5) Is it legit?


----------



## emeeve

Yes it’s legit. You can only buy Nimak on EBAY for now. I’m in Montréal and it took about 2 weeks to deliver but it got here. Know lots of folks in this forum that have had no issues either…you’re good.


----------



## slazhx

emeeve said:


> Yes it’s legit. You can only buy Nimak on EBAY for now. I’m in Montréal and it took about 2 weeks to deliver but it got here. Know lots of folks in this forum that have had no issues either…you’re good.



Thanks! I will check it out.


----------



## PLGA

arayasg said:


> Hi guys. First of all, I want to thanks all headfiers in this thread. I've been reading all 192 pages and that kinda enlightened me!
> 
> I do have a few basic questions to ask and here below is my current system.
> 
> ...


I have a similar chain (it sounds superb):

Uptone Etherregen (ER) switch - SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo SE - Audio-GD DI-20 (non HE version) - Audio-GD R7-HE (2018 model) 

I use a Morion Master Clock with the ER and the DI-20, but not my R7-HE as it doesn't have a Master Clock input.

I don't know if your R7-HE has Kingwa's new USB implementation and a Master Clock input. If it does, I don't know how much better would be adding the DI-20HE to the chain as Kingwa says that the new USB on the HE version DACs betters the DI-20 (non HE version), but not the DI-20HE. Maybe someone here has compared an R7-HE with new USB input with and without the DI-20HE.

If the difference is not big (as I believe), I think you will spend better those 1000 bucks on the ER plus a Morion Master Clock for both, the ER and the R7-HE. I think that way could have a better price to perfomance ratio.


----------



## Jandu

Jandu said:


> Hi Jandu, any ACSS would you recommend?



I will try, however, your system is differ from mine and your taste of music would not be same as mine, preference can be different as well.

I did have Kingwa's ACSS and this following one to compare:

https://robertsonaudiocables.com.au...-xlr-3-pin-female?_pos=1&_sid=ae347e705&_ss=r

The solid core silver from RobersonAudio is quite a bit better. I did compared it to a KCAG from Kimber Cable (RCA) and the ACSS connection is also better in my system. Price wise, the KCAG is quite a bit more money.  I use these between a R8HE to HE9.
[/QUOTE]

Just for those who are looking for ACSS alternatives:

At one point of time, Kingwa has mentioned this ACSS connection as an upgrade.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153734593462?hash=item23cb4bbbb6:g:whEAAOSwVEFb7qUp


----------



## slazhx

PLGA said:


> I have a similar chain (it sounds superb):
> 
> Uptone Etherregen (ER) switch - SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo SE - Audio-GD DI-20 (non HE version) - Audio-GD R7-HE (2018 model)
> 
> ...



My R7HE is not the 2021 version so that the board design is still the old one (but with an external clock port). So I might add DI-20HE to the chain rather than getting the new R7HE mk II version. Morion clock is another thing I'm interested to save money for in the future 



Jandu said:


> I will try, however, your system is differ from mine and your taste of music would not be same as mine, preference can be different as well.
> 
> I did have Kingwa's ACSS and this following one to compare:
> 
> ...



Just for those who are looking for ACSS alternatives:

At one point of time, Kingwa has mentioned this ACSS connection as an upgrade.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153734593462?hash=item23cb4bbbb6:g:whEAAOSwVEFb7qUp
[/QUOTE]

Thanks Jandu. Now I am about to try Nimak Purple USB. If the result is good to my setup, maybe I will save money for Nimak ACSS 5 as another step. There are many head-fiers mentioned about this ACSS


----------



## slazhx (Jul 6, 2021)

Hi again,

Now DI-20HE and Nimak Purple USB are on the way. I plan to get Nimak ACSS, maybe in the next couple of months.

For now, would you guys please recommend a nice HDMI I2S cable to connect between DI-20HE and R7HE? My system is on the signature and my taste is more like rock music rather than audiophiles. I always love body, dynamic, impact, and bass slam while maintaining the resolution and details of instruments mostly from Progressive rock/metal.

Also, I prefer a cable length of around 1 m to fit my rack. Many comments say the shorter (HDMI) the best, is 1 m is still good? Will it make a big compromise for SQ? or you recommend finding a way to use 0.3 m instead?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## sajunky

arayasg said:


> Also, I prefer a cable length of around 1 m to fit my rack. Many comments say the shorter (HDMI) the best, is 1 m is still good? Will it make a big compromise for SQ? or you recommend finding a way to use 0.3 m instead?


Yes


----------



## slazhx

sajunky said:


> Yes


Hi, you mean there is a big difference in SQ and I should try to stick with 0.3m length no matter what?


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Now DI-20HE and Nimak Purple USB are on the way. I plan to get Nimak ACSS, maybe in the next couple of months.
> 
> ...


I use a 0.5m 4k hdmi cable made by Afterdark at the moment. I can recommend it, it is among the two best i tried.


----------



## sajunky

arayasg said:


> Hi, you mean there is a big difference in SQ and I should try to stick with 0.3m length no matter what?


Sorry, I see a short answer was not clear. Use a 4k version of a good brand as recommended. SQ is deteriorating slow till exceeding a maximum lenght. One meter should be fine.


----------



## slazhx

sajunky said:


> Sorry, I see a short answer was not clear. Use a 4k version of a good brand as recommended. SQ is deteriorating slow till exceeding a maximum lenght. One meter should be fine.



Thanks. I will check whether I can use 0.5 m



FredA said:


> I use a 0.5m 4k hdmi cable made by Afterdark at the moment. I can recommend it, it is among the two best i tried.



Thank you Fred. Can you compare with Bel FE and WireWorld that you guys ever discussed last year?

There are two HDMI by AfterDark. Which one would you recommend to suit my music preference? 

https://www.adark.co/products/after...3&_sid=a96701a36&_ss=r&variant=31359187910774

https://www.adark.co/products/after...8k-i2s-hdmi-cable?_pos=2&_sid=a96701a36&_ss=r

Thanks again.


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Thanks. I will check whether I can use 0.5 m
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Afterdark is better than the Belden. I only tried the 4k after, it was the only one available in 0.5m. Did not try the Wireworld. Kingwa recommends the yellow one if i am not mistaken.


----------



## Jandu

arayasg said:


> Hi again,
> 
> Now DI-20HE and Nimak Purple USB are on the way. I plan to get Nimak ACSS, maybe in the next couple of months.
> 
> ...


Shorter the better for HDMI used for IIS


----------



## slazhx (Jul 6, 2021)

Jandu said:


> Shorter the better for HDMI used for IIS


Thanks Jandu. I will see what I can do with my setup.



FredA said:


> The Afterdark is better than the Belden. I only tried the 4k after, it was the only one available in 0.5m. Did not try the Wireworld. Kingwa recommends the yellow one if i am not mistaken.



Hi again Fred,

I have asked AfterDark and here is what I got replied.

MK I: more balanced and transparent. much better perform for heavy metals 
https://www.adark.co/collections/di...-carbon-fiber-shielding-cfs-8k-i2s-hdmi-cable

MK II: good for Vocal and Jazz. A bit warm sounding. Maybe too colored for Rock music.
https://www.adark.co/products/after...3&_sid=a50027c8d&_ss=r&variant=31359187910774

This below is also stated on the product description.

*What is the different between Black Magic I2S HDMI MKI and MKII?*
This is a upgrade version of MKII, sounding tends to more focus and luxury high with high quality airy feel, 3 frequency is improved in soundstage, more musical and smooth , very good for vocal, jazz and best for classical music.

So I think I might try the MK I. Will let you know the outcome later.


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Thanks Jandu. I will see what I can do with my setup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i have the mkii.


----------



## newabc

iFi makes a streamer similar to USBridge: ZEN Stream. But I don't think it comes with a very good LPS like Shanti together at the $399 price point.

Another source solution with an official LPS and under $500 in total, I think it is aune x5s(6th anniversary). But the basic model only supports SD cards and USB flash drives and it is not a streamer. (Its usb 3.0 port's power is not high enough for an traditional portable external hard drive.)  The stock switching PS in the x5s box is already good after the reclocking of DI-20. The improvement of Aune's XP-2 or XP-3 LPS is not so significant at the same environment.


----------



## slazhx (Jul 10, 2021)

Hello guys,

I already received the DI-20HE and it sounds superb. I have plan to upgrade some cables to my system. Can you please suggest which cable should I upgrade first according to my current one below?

Audio grade Network Switch -> Stock LAN Cat6 cable -> SOtM sms-200 ultra neo SE Streamer -> Nimak Purple USB -> Audio GD DI-20HE -> Stock HDMI I2S -> Audio GD R7HE (2020) -> Stock ACSS (or Tchernov mid-end XLR) -> Audio GD HE9 -> Headphones

Which should I upgrade first? LAN Cable, HDMI I2S, or ACSS cable?

I mostly stream music using SOtM streamer via Roon and now happy with AC cables. All DC devices are already feeded with good linear power supply unit

Thank you in advance for your help.



newabc said:


> iFi makes a streamer similar to USBridge: ZEN Stream. But I don't think it comes with a very good LPS like Shanti together at the $399 price point.
> 
> Another source solution with an official LPS and under $500 in total, I think it is aune x5s(6th anniversary). But the basic model only supports SD cards and USB flash drives and it is not a streamer. (Its usb 3.0 port's power is not high enough for an traditional portable external hard drive.)  The stock switching PS in the x5s box is already good after the reclocking of DI-20. The improvement of Aune's XP-2 or XP-3 LPS is not so significant at the same environment.


Thanks, I will check it out. This might save my budget in the future.


----------



## newabc (Jul 10, 2021)

arayasg said:


> Thanks, I will check it out. This might save my budget in the future.


But in my test, the x5s SPDIF output to DI-20 then via coaxial SPDIF acss to my ref-5 DAC, only fully supports 16bit/44.1K or 48K. 
If someone omits the DI-20, the x5s can output DoP via coaxial to a DAC which can accept DoP.
The DI-20 still needs a streamer or PC/Mac to input DSD to it via USB and then DI-20 outputs I2S via HDMI.


----------



## slazhx

FredA said:


> i have the mkii.



Hi again Fred, have you ever compare AfterDark HDMI to AQ Coffee HDMI? Are they the same league? I love to hear your comment.



newabc said:


> But in my test, the x5s SPDIF output to DI-20 then via coaxial SPDIF acss to my ref-5 DAC, only fully supports 16bit/44.1K or 48K.
> If someone omits the DI-20, the x5s can output DoP via coaxial to a DAC which can accept DoP.
> The DI-20 still needs a streamer or PC/Mac to input DSD to it via USB and then DI-20 outputs I2S via HDMI.



Thanks, I will try it. Also big thanks for your instruction about firmware upgrade posted earlier. That is so helpful. Now I am in love with 3.933.


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Hi again Fred, have you ever compare AfterDark HDMI to AQ Coffee HDMI? Are they the same league? I love to hear your comment


Hi. 

No. And i have the mki afterdark. The mkii is supposddly better. The mki is available in 0.5m, the mkii was min. 1m last.time I checked. The mki is very good, and beats the Belden in 0.3m. It Is noticeably smoothler. 

Kingwa.recommends the WW chroma 7.it is not expensive.. The ultraviolet is also affordable. Never tried them.


----------



## Jandu

FredA said:


> Hi.
> 
> No. And i have the mki afterdark. The mkii is supposddly better. The mki is available in 0.5m, the mkii was min. 1m last.time I checked. The mki is very good, and beats the Belden in 0.3m. It Is noticeably smoothler.
> 
> Kingwa.recommends the WW chroma 7.it is not expensive.. The ultraviolet is also affordable. Never tried them.


I can only find WW chroma 7 in 1 m length, Belden 30 cm is better.


----------



## slazhx

FredA said:


> Hi.
> 
> No. And i have the mki afterdark. The mkii is supposddly better. The mki is available in 0.5m, the mkii was min. 1m last.time I checked. The mki is very good, and beats the Belden in 0.3m. It Is noticeably smoothler.
> 
> Kingwa.recommends the WW chroma 7.it is not expensive.. The ultraviolet is also affordable. Never tried them.



Thanks Fred. But if you have 0.5m length, then it should be mk ii since the mk i is starting from 1m length. 

What would you say between AfterDark and WW?



Jandu said:


> I can only find WW chroma 7 in 1 m length, Belden 30 cm is better.



Wow, that can save the money.


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Thanks Fred. But if you have 0.5m length, then it should be mk ii since the mk i is starting from 1m length.


Indeed, sorry. Confusing naming.


----------



## slazhx

FredA said:


> Indeed, sorry. Confusing naming.



Yup. Can you compare AfterDark and WireWorld that you had been used?


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Yup. Can you compare AfterDark and WireWorld that you had been used?


I have tried no wireworld.


----------



## slazhx

FredA said:


> I have tried no wireworld.



oh. excuse for repeatedly asking for that.


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> oh. excuse for repeatedly asking for that.


No problem.


----------



## PeterCraig

Here I posted some thoughts on the DI-20 vs DI-20HE with the Audio-gd Master 7 dac.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aud...lly-balanced-dac-pcm1704.625793/post-16461700


----------



## GoldenOne

I've posted some measurements of the Jitter and noise from the DI-20HE.
This thing is seriously impressive and is the best DDC I've seen thus far.

https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/audio-gd-di20he-measurements/


----------



## sajunky

@GoldenOne, this looks really very good! 

Two things I have to comment. It is expensive, yes - relatively. Where you can find DDC with a regenerative power supply? More - with a *low frequency* regenerative power supply! Please find such device and the come back with a price, I will be glad to see and compare.

A second one is on ACSS measurements. It is invalid, plain and simple. ACSS is a current loop technology. To measure ACSS noise you need to make a current sense differential receiver and convert it to a voltage. Similar situatiuon (as you have correctly mentioned) is with I2S LVDS port, but LVDS is a voltage driven, here you deal with a current flow.

Otherwise I am glad to see you in Audio GD corner, your recent finding about Denafrips NOS is ground breaking.


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> @GoldenOne, this looks really very good!
> 
> Two things I have to comment. It is expensive, yes - relatively. Where you can find DDC with a regenerative power supply? More - with a *low frequency* regenerative power supply! Please find such device and the come back with a price, I will be glad to see and compare.
> 
> ...


I didn't measure the acss output noise. Just the normal spdif.

The graphs in blue are showing actual jitter, not noise. 
If there is more jitter on that graph then the same would happen on any dac. Though as mentioned in the article it could be that it provides benefits with AGD dacs. But for others, better to use the normal coax out. 

I am not entirely convinced by the benefits of the regenerative psu given the poor psu performance of some other audio-gd products that have them. A normal, well done linear power supply vs regenerative needs further investigation before anything conclusive can be said. But I don't have the regular version here to compare so can't say.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 22, 2021)

There are two versions: DI-20 and DI-20HE. HE version is $400 more expensive, a difference is only in regenerative power supply, but performance? A paramount feature. Ask users what is their experience with these two models, you will be surprised.


----------



## myshark

GoldenOne said:


> I've posted some measurements of the Jitter and noise from the DI-20HE.
> This thing is seriously impressive and is the best DDC I've seen thus far.
> 
> https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/audio-gd-di20he-measurements/


Hi,
Good review. Nice to read objective reviews from you. I like the mqa reviews. Thanks.
Many would like to know the effect of the external clocks on jitter and noise as compared to the internal clock. If any benefits using the ext clock.

Regards,


----------



## GoldenOne (Jul 22, 2021)

sajunky said:


> There are two versions: DI-20 and DI-20HE. HE version is $400 more expensive, a difference is only in regenerative power supply, but performance? A paramount feature. Ask users what is their experience with these two models, you will be surprised.


I prefer to judge things for myself as unfortunately I really don't trust many subjective reviews on forums etc. Many people are far to quick to judge things or claim something is better when they've not tested properly and are allowing bias or placebo to influence them.
People will often hear what they want to hear or expect to hear regardless of if a difference exists or not. Hence you see people talking about differences in dac weights, special fuses and silly USB cables etc.

And even with stuff where there are differences, like dacs, amps etc, people will often test too far apart, without proper vol matching, fully sighted, and just generally doing nothing to ensure that they're actually hearing what they think they're hearing.
Quite frankly subjective feedback online is nothing close to reliable other than for big/obvious differences like headphones etc.
For subtle stuff like DDCs and even DACs, proper blind AB tests need to be done. It's part of why I release reviews slowly, because I do blind tests with everything I review and if I can't reliably discern something in a blind test I don't talk about it in the review.

Otherwise I could be talking nonsense. Even if I fully believed and was hearing something, I don't know that it's genuine unless I check properly.
NO ONE is immune to placebo or expectation bias.

Something can be more expensive, but that doesn't mean it's better.
R7HE has a regenerative PSU but the PSU leakage is awful.

I think the DI20HE is a great product, but the regenerative PSU specifically I'd like to try regular DI20 to compare.



myshark said:


> Hi,
> Good review. Nice to read objective reviews from you. I like the mqa reviews. Thanks.
> Many would like to know the effect of the external clocks on jitter and noise as compared to the internal clock. If any benefits using the ext clock.
> 
> Regards,


It'll likely depend on the quality of the external clock. If I get one in and happen to have DI20HE here at the time I'll definitely test it.


----------



## FredA

Nothing beats a listening test. Long-term. It's a different to thing listen to a component daily vs testing it.  For me at least. Only excellent components stand the test of time. Not so many gears are fatigue-free and draw you into music day in day out. Audiophile gears developed  by audiophiles, music lovers are what i like. Kingwa and his mates are a passionate group. Kingwa loves what he does.


----------



## Toni-Mang

@GoldenOne thank you again for this informative review. And yes, sound is always subjective, measurements, done properly, are not...i especially like the DI20HE soundstage depths...this is the reason i still use it with the MAY via I2s.


----------



## FredA (Jul 23, 2021)

I am puzzed by the noise level measurement. Is it ground noise? Cause otherwise the signal needs to be subtracted. Not sure the measured noise figures make sense otherwise cause they seem high considering the jitter level. One should not forget that only differential noise matters as far as jitter. But common noise can contaminate the receiver if no galvanic isolation. My understanding is those figures express common noise and that it is a consequence a great idea to use a galvanically isolated dac input. In my experience, aes/ebu and i2s are indeed best when feeding the r7he mkii.


----------



## sajunky

myshark said:


> Many would like to know the effect of the external clocks on jitter and noise as compared to the internal clock. If any benefits using the ext clock.


Short answer. External clock synchronisation is critical to ensure that both devices (source and destignation) are synchronised to the same frequency. It allows to avoid de-jittering techniques (like PLL/SRC), which are inferior to the direct clocking from the stable source. In addition, external clock devices are selling with a magnitude lower jitter than small clock oscilators.

Read this thread, some posts from the last three months are focusing on the external clock topic. Unfortunately, only TOTL devices have external clock input, but it makes sense, as far I can tell. It must be some level of transparency in the system (i.e. free of ground loops and other noise sources), then the external clock brings SQ to the next level.


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> Short answer. External clock synchronisation is critical to ensure that both devices (source and destignation) are synchronised to the same frequency. It allows to avoid de-jittering techniques (like PLL/SRC), which are inferior to the direct clocking from the stable source. In addition, external clock devices are selling with a magnitude lower jitter than small clock oscilators.
> 
> Read this thread, some posts from the last three months are focusing on the external clock topic. Unfortunately, only TOTL devices have external clock input, but it makes sense, as far I can tell. It must be some level of transparency in the system (i.e. free of ground loops and other noise sources), then the external clock brings SQ to the next level.


The main issue with 10mhz clocks is that whilst having all devices synced to one clock can be beneficial, the quality of the clock synthesizer in the receiving device is important.
The devices are NOT running directly off the 10mhz reference, they need to synthesize a 44.1khz/48khz base rate clock signal from it.

And so whilst it SHOULD be beneficial, it's not a given, as some devices may not do this very well, and also some 10mhz clocks may not be that good either.


----------



## sajunky

GoldenOne said:


> The main issue with 10mhz clocks is that whilst having all devices synced to one clock can be beneficial, the quality of the clock synthesizer in the receiving device is important.
> The devices are NOT running directly off the 10mhz reference, they need to synthesize a 44.1khz/48khz base rate clock signal from it.
> 
> And so whilst it SHOULD be beneficial, it's not a given, as some devices may not do this very well, and also some 10mhz clocks may not be that good either.


What is your point?


----------



## GoldenOne

sajunky said:


> What is your point?


That using a 10mhz external clock is no guarantee of an improvement. There are various reasons why it could be worse than a 'typical' setup


----------



## FredA

GoldenOne said:


> The main issue with 10mhz clocks is that whilst having all devices synced to one clock can be beneficial, the quality of the clock synthesizer in the receiving device is important.
> The devices are NOT running directly off the 10mhz reference, they need to synthesize a 44.1khz/48khz base rate clock signal from it.
> 
> And so whilst it SHOULD be beneficial, it's not a given, as some devices may not do this very well, and also some 10mhz clocks may not be that good either.


Kingwa must be doing something right with clock synthesis, cause it works!


----------



## sajunky

GoldenOne said:


> That using a 10mhz external clock is no guarantee of an improvement. There are various reasons why it could be worse than a 'typical' setup


Is that a point? You are arguing to the point I wrote, saying the same things.


> Unfortunately, only TOTL devices have external clock input, but it makes sense, as far I can tell. It must be some level of transparency in the system (i.e. free of ground loops and other noise sources), then the external clock brings SQ to the next level.


----------



## Baci (Jul 27, 2021)

Never mind!


----------



## JCB1964

Hello all ! I'm trying to update my Audio GD R7 2020 FPGA, following http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R720/R7updateEN.htm

I stumbled of course on the obsolete 12.1 Quartus program, and thanks to this thread I found https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1 and the 16.0 version. Now, I have a problem.  The Blaster Driver dont want to install, even manually pointing to C:\altera\16.0\qprogrammer\drivers

I have a "code 39" error, like the driver was corrupt. 

I feel this driver is not compatible with last versions of Windows 10 ? Do you know where I can find an updated driver, or what can be the problem ? (I searched "driver" or "code 39" on this forum, without success)

Thanks a lot in advance !


----------



## Jandu

JCB1964 said:


> Hello all ! I'm trying to update my Audio GD R7 2020 FPGA, following http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R720/R7updateEN.htm
> ....


Try to locate and erase the existing driver first. Once the existing driver is erased, point windows to the driver contained within the 16.0 directory. That should work. 

Failing that find a Win7 or older OS.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 27, 2021)

Windows 10 force signed drivers, you have to disable driver signing (restore defaults when finished). 64-bit version is probably incompatible. Use Win7 as suggested.


----------



## newabc (Jul 27, 2021)

The blaster with a FTDI brand usb-interface chip will be more likely compatible with the drivers from win 10 itself or Quartus 16.0 and up.
But a FTDI chip will raise at least $10 more on the price of a blaster.

A little update: Personally, I will recommend Waveshare or XYGStudy's usb blaster v2(the v1 and v2's difference is only the compatible protocols based on Waveshare's wiki) or the higher price Terasic P0302 if the users are in US. Of cause if you are in China, the choices will be much much more.


----------



## JCB1964

Well.. no easy way.. I tried to remove signed drivers by rebooting Windows with appropriate option (F7 etc..), but at reboot Windows asks me my Bitlocker key..   
Newabc : you suggest I can buy another blaster interface, but there is already a blaster interface in R7 2020, and I've only an usb port to interface.

Anyway : thanks all for your answers. I'll try to find an old PC I can customize with Win7


----------



## FredA

JCB1964 said:


> Well.. no easy way.. I tried to remove signed drivers by rebooting Windows with appropriate option (F7 etc..), but at reboot Windows asks me my Bitlocker key..
> Newabc : you suggest I can buy another blaster interface, but there is already a blaster interface in R7 2020, and I've only an usb port to interface.
> 
> Anyway : thanks all for your answers. I'll try to find an old PC I can customize with Win7


I use v12 with windows10 no issue.


----------



## JCB1964

Where did you find the V12 ? It is not available anymore. Can you made it available on the HeadFi Onedrive or other share ? 


FredA said:


> I use v12 with windows10 no issue.


----------



## FredA

In fact, it is 12.1. It is still uvailable on some sites. You only need the programmer. 

I had to patch my installation for the GUI to work on win8 but i think it should be fine on 10. My patched version work too as is (simple installation folder copy) on my other  pc running win10.

This site for instance offers a download, not sure how good or safe, i have not tried it: https://quartus-ii-programmer.software.informer.com/12.1/


----------



## JCB1964 (Jul 28, 2021)

FredA said:


> In fact, it is 12.1. It is still uvailable on some sites. You only need the programmer.
> 
> I had to patch my installation for the GUI to work on win8 but i think it should be fine on 10. My patched version work too as is (simple installation folder copy) on my other  pc running win10.
> 
> This site for instance offers a download, not sure how good or safe, i have not tried it: https://quartus-ii-programmer.software.informer.com/12.1/


The download link on this site points to V14.. and in fine to the Intel site, which needs an account.. I am not to the point to make the GUI function : I am to the point of Blaster to be recognized by device manager !


----------



## FredA

Maybe @DACLadder could help, he posted he couple of insightful pieces on installing the driver if i remember well. You can run a search on his post on the r7 thread and this one.


----------



## JCB1964

I downloaded the 21.1 version on the Intel site, hoping a newer driver. I uninstalled the older one, and installed the new one => no more luck. This time, no "code 39" but a unidentified error.. I look for an old PC now..


----------



## FredA

Have you tried uninstalling the driver using the device manager?


----------



## newabc

JCB1964 said:


> Well.. no easy way.. I tried to remove signed drivers by rebooting Windows with appropriate option (F7 etc..), but at reboot Windows asks me my Bitlocker key..
> Newabc : you suggest I can buy another blaster interface, but there is already a blaster interface in R7 2020, and I've only an usb port to interface.
> 
> Anyway : thanks all for your answers. I'll try to find an old PC I can customize with Win7


Is your R7-2020 using a mini-usb port like this(It was shipped before 6/18/2020)?






If so, I think the interface chip was soldered inside the R7 chassis and we may ask for the technical support from Audio-gd.

If the update port looks like below, I think the only thing to do is to get another usb blaster with FTDI chip, other than the stock one was shipped together with DI-20 or R7, R8.


----------



## JCB1964

FredA said:


> Have you tried uninstalling the driver using the device manager?


I always did this way !

Concerning the port, this is an USB port, like in this URL http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R720/R7updateEN.htm , not blaster port (I can't see the jpgs) 

Thanks all for your help !!


----------



## newabc

JCB1964 said:


> I always did this way !
> 
> Concerning the port, this is an USB port, like in this URL http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R720/R7updateEN.htm , not blaster port (I can't see the jpgs)
> 
> Thanks all for your help !!


If the update port looks like the one in your URL, it is a mini-usb port. I think you can contact Audio-gd to see whether there is a standard JTAG port of 10 pin header with Altera Standard pinout inside the chassis. If so, you can open the chassis and plug in a USB blaster.

As the below picture, the JTAG cable on the left and the pinout on the right. (But most of the blasters like below one, are the ones usually said on the blaster product information that need windows 7 and quartus v12.x.)


----------



## slazhx (Jul 29, 2021)

FredA said:


> I use a 0.5m 4k hdmi cable made by Afterdark at the moment. I can recommend it, it is among the two best i tried.



Sorry, guys if this might be off-topic.

Just to report Fred that I finally decided to get Tubulus Argentus i2s and After Dark Lan cables.

I can assure folks that if you are looking for intense sound, punch and slam while maintaining resolutions, micro details, airiness and sound stage, then these two cables can be put to your rig. I'm now so happy with them as they've brought the sound to another level.

https://www.tubulus.net/product/tubulus-argentus-i2s-cable/

https://www.adark.co/products/afterdark-constellation-cfs-cat7-telegartner-mfp8-edition

Happy listening guys.


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Sorry, guys if this might be off-topic.
> 
> Just to report Fred that I finally decided to get Tubulus Argentus i2s and After Dark Lan cables.
> 
> ...


That’s great but boy, the Tubulus is expensive. Trying to figure out if if the price would be justified  for me…


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jul 29, 2021)

JCB1964 said:


> Hello all ! I'm trying to update my Audio GD R7 2020 FPGA, following http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R720/R7updateEN.htm
> 
> I stumbled of course on the obsolete 12.1 Quartus program, and thanks to this thread I found https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1 and the 16.0 version. Now, I have a problem.  The Blaster Driver dont want to install, even manually pointing to C:\altera\16.0\qprogrammer\drivers
> 
> ...


The link from onedrive by the member here is good. I'm sorry, I should thank and attribute the member who saved the driver and doc for us but I can't remember his name now. 

The issue is new security features in Win 10. Turn off core isolation in your security options, reboot, and you can use the driver with Win 10 64 bit (home and pro). Unfortunately, you can never turn on core isolation and have the Quartus drivers installed at the same time.

Guys, thank you for all your help and advice. I have been off the site due to the atrocious conduct in general. The audio-gd threads are about the only decent place left.

I wanted to post this info since you guys have helped me so much and I have been enjoying my new gear. But I will probably not be on the site much anymore. Thanks.


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> The link from onedrive by the member here is good. I'm sorry, I should thank and attribute the member who saved the driver and doc for us but I can't remember his name now.
> 
> The issue is new security features in Win 10. Turn off core isolation in your security options, reboot, and you can use the driver with Win 10 64 bit (home and pro). Unfortunately, you can never turn on core isolation and have the Quartus drivers installed at the same time.
> 
> ...


Thanks. This is very kind of you. You are always welcome here.


----------



## DACLadder

gimmeheadroom said:


> The link from onedrive by the member here is good. I'm sorry, I should thank and attribute the member who saved the driver and doc for us but I can't remember his name now.
> 
> The issue is new security features in Win 10. Turn off core isolation in your security options, reboot, and you can use the driver with Win 10 64 bit (home and pro). Unfortunately, you can never turn on core isolation and have the Quartus drivers installed at the same time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip on core isolation.  Quartus 16.0 still runs OK on my Win 10 64 system. 

With no driver installed does WIndows HW Mgr see the unconfigured Blaster?  My PC, for 5 years, will only see the Blaster on certain USB parts.  Try a different port (3.0 vs 2.0 or front/ back).  Also, the Blaster needs USB +5V to function.
.


----------



## JCB1964

Yes the unconfigured Blaster shows in the device manager, at root when no driver, and appropriate place (USB tree) and a question mark with the driver installer with error.
This is probably (as said by others) a security issue. As I said above, when I try to suppress signed driver security (special reboot, 7 or "F7" option etc..) my laptop asks my Bitlocker key at reboot !  I have it, or I can retreive it, but I don't want to risk to mess with Bitlocker. An hurdle, well, a wall, shows in each way !!

The last way is to retreive an old PC where I can install W7.


----------



## newabc

JCB1964 said:


> Yes the unconfigured Blaster shows in the device manager, at root when no driver, and appropriate place (USB tree) and a question mark with the driver installer with error.
> This is probably (as said by others) a security issue. As I said above, when I try to suppress signed driver security (special reboot, 7 or "F7" option etc..) my laptop asks my Bitlocker key at reboot !  I have it, or I can retreive it, but I don't want to risk to mess with Bitlocker. An hurdle, well, a wall, shows in each way !!
> 
> The last way is to retreive an old PC where I can install W7.


Actually even I load a firmware update or boot loader update on linux with one of my laptop, it asks me for the BitLocker key if I turn back to Win 10. It is quite common for a linux user on a dual-boot laptop with a TPM chip.


----------



## slazhx

FredA said:


> That’s great but boy, the Tubulus is expensive. Trying to figure out if if the price would be justified  for me…



Couldn't agree more. I was lucky enough to get the used one, otherwise I would had bought the After Dark i2s as you recommended. 

Just to say thank you to you again. This thread helps me a tons.


----------



## DACLadder (Jul 30, 2021)

JCB1964 said:


> Yes the unconfigured Blaster shows in the device manager, at root when no driver, and appropriate place (USB tree) and a question mark with the driver installer with error.
> This is probably (as said by others) a security issue. As I said above, when I try to suppress signed driver security (special reboot, 7 or "F7" option etc..) my laptop asks my Bitlocker key at reboot !  I have it, or I can retreive it, but I don't want to risk to mess with Bitlocker. An hurdle, well, a wall, shows in each way !!
> 
> The last way is to retreive an old PC where I can install W7.



Windows 10 online documentation does not agree with latest Windows update.  I do not see Core Isolation in the Windows Security->Device Security menu (like below).  So this has changed.  I uninstalled and deleted the older Blaster driver and attempted to install the latest Quartus 20.1 software but the Blaster driver would not install in this case.  But I could load the old 16.0 driver no problem.

So this is an issue and if you have a working version of Quartus you are fortunate


----------



## gimmeheadroom

It is not in the menu on my new box either. But if you click on start menu and start typing core isolation it will find it.


----------



## DACLadder

gimmeheadroom said:


> It is not in the menu on my new box either. But if you click on start menu and start typing core isolation it will find it.


Thanks…. My PC has acted strangely since last Windows update.  Many BSODs like a HW failure.  Different error code each time.  Not looking forward to Windows 11!


----------



## sajunky

Which version was running stable?


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> It is not in the menu on my new box either. But if you click on start menu and start typing core isolation it will find it.


This is a good tip, thanks.


----------



## DACLadder

gimmeheadroom said:


> The link from onedrive by the member here is good. I'm sorry, I should thank and attribute the member who saved the driver and doc for us but I can't remember his name now.
> 
> The issue is new security features in Win 10. Turn off core isolation in your security options, reboot, and you can use the driver with Win 10 64 bit (home and pro). Unfortunately, you can never turn on core isolation and have the Quartus drivers installed at the same time.
> 
> ...


People are rude and a shame Head-Fi is a hostile environment.  Hate to see a decent forum member run off.



sajunky said:


> Which version was running stable?


I think my issues started last week on the July 15 Win 10 update.  The March 2021 major update ran really well on my system.  Actually fixed some NAS and printer detection issues at boot up. I was happy.  And I loaded Quartus 20.0.4 last summer no problem.


----------



## FredA

DACLadder said:


> People are rude and a shame Head-Fi is a hostile environment.  Hate to see a decent forum member run off.
> 
> 
> I think my issues started last week on the July 15 Win 10 update.  The March 2021 major update ran really well on my system.  Actually fixed some NAS and printer detection issues at boot up. I was happy.  And I loaded Quartus 20.0.4 last summer no problem.


I use a win10 mini pc exclusively for fw updates. Windows never updates itself cause not connected to the internet.  

Automatic updates on PCs is the worst invention ever. I am on windows8 for this very reason on my main pc, still running like a charm. All the new stuff introduced during the last 7-8.years is useless garbage to me.  And just slowing down the boot up. 

I did not not have much of a problem installing the 12.1 altera drver on the win10 mini-pc. I remember struggling a bit though.


----------



## newabc (Jul 30, 2021)

From when I took screenshots for a better instruction of Quartus installation on win 10 but hasn't written anything, there were months. But I knew so many difficulties on signed/unsigned drivers very late, only in this week.

My alternative solution for who really wants a windows 10 + Quartus environment and is able to read Chinese:

(1) Get VMPlayer(VMWare Player);
(2) Get the download link of Windows 10 1903 or 1909 from msdn.itellyou.cn(this website is written in Chinese, and most of the win 10 iso images in this site are Chinese version), and download it, verify the sha1 checksum of the iso;
(3) Install this ISO on the VMPlayer VM, connect the usb blaster to your usb 3.0 port and pass this port to the VMPlayer;
(4) Install the Quartus 16.x or above in the VM;
(5) Use "rearm" to extend the trial period of the win 10;
(6) *Most important, don't store any important or valuable data in this VM, only use the VM when you need to flash a firmware into the Altera chip and don't update the Win 10 version of VM to 21H1 or above.*

I think the same theory can be applied to the Win 7 VMs since the win 7 has no longer been updated.

Another way is to use linux+Quartus.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 30, 2021)

+1. Virtual machine is a good advice. I want to point to the TechBench by WZT. It is actually a front-end to the Microsoft database, all download URL's point to the Microsoft servers. I was using this service many times.

Edit: Would standard installation ISO work as well? This link point to the unmodified ISO images. VM images can be different.


----------



## newabc

sajunky said:


> +1. Virtual machine is a good advice. I want to point to the TechBench by WZT. It is actually a front-end to the Microsoft database, all download URL's point to the Microsoft servers. I was using this service many times.
> 
> Edit: Would standard installation ISO work as well? This link point to the unmodified ISO images. VM images can be different.


I will only recommend install a VM from the installation ISO images which are supposed to be unmodified.
For the msdn.itellyou.cn, it has the ed2k links for the ISOs only. Most of its Chinese users think its sha1 checksums came from MSDN(Microsoft developer network).


----------



## JCB1964 (Aug 1, 2021)

sajunky said:


> +1. Virtual machine is a good advice. I want to point to the TechBench by WZT. It is actually a front-end to the Microsoft database, all download URL's point to the Microsoft servers. I was using this service many times.
> 
> Edit: Would standard installation ISO work as well? This link point to the unmodified ISO images. VM images can be different.


I want to thank you all. I installed VirtualBox, created a Windows7 VM, installed Quartus 16 => No problems at all. I had to manually find the driver in \altera\16.0 this was the only difficulty. I had too to redirect the Blaster peripheral directly to VM USB interface.

The flashing process was seamless and my R7 is now at last version and working perfectly !

This is THE solution.


----------



## FredA

JCB1964 said:


> I want to thank you all. I installed VirtualBox, created a Windows7 VM, installed Quartus 16 => No problems at all. I had to manually find the driver in \altera\16.0 this was the only difficulty. I had too to redirect the Blaster peripheral directly to VM USB interface.
> 
> The flashing process was seamless and my R7 is now at last version and working perfectly !
> 
> This is THE solution.


Way to go! You are set for good!


----------



## PLGA

Hi guys
I've just replaced a budget chinese LPS (with Talema transformers) for a Teradak LPS to feed my Morion clock for my DI-20 and ER and the difference is not small. Like the old saying... veils were lifted 

It's my second Terdak LPS and both made a considerably improvement.

If anyone is considering on buying a budget chinese LPS on ebay, I would strongly advice you to buy a Teradak one instead. It would cost about $50/60 more, but it will be totally worthwhile. They are great for the money.

One tip. I haven't bought them on Ebay or Aliexpress, but directly from factory to be sure it wasn't a knockoff. Anyone interested can contact Michael at teradak888@hotmail.com or teradak@teradak.com for a quote.


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Hi guys
> I've just replaced a budget chinese LPS (with Talema transformers) for a Teradak LPS to feed my Morion clock for my DI-20 and ER and the difference is not small. Like the old saying... veils were lifted
> 
> It's my second Terdak LPS and both made a considerably improvement.
> ...


Yeah. I always take the unit with a Talema or r-core (similar to audiio-gd). Ultralow-noise of course. With a shielded dc cable. It matters for clocks. 

Speaking of power, i ordered a 500VA balanced isolation transformer with emi filtering from the primary Zerozone seller on alie. Not cheap but high quality, with an o-core transformer. Should get it in about a month or so. I will feed the usbrdige sig, the Afterdark clock and di20he with it. Not that i think it is needed for the latter but just to put it at the same dc level as the streamer.


----------



## ToddRaymond

@PLGA Hey, thanks for passing along that info.!  Thinking of of getting one of their LPS for my 2018 Mac Mini.


----------



## AudioAlex

dacver said:


> I sent you download link in private. Please open the private message.
> It's not available in Intel site anymore.
> cheers.


Would it be possible to share the link. I have exactly the same problem.

Much appreciated.


----------



## GU1DO (Aug 27, 2021)

Hi All ,,
Guys i have a strange problem ,, sometimes when i turn on the di-20he i got switched channels , left is right and vice versa , so i have to turn it off and on to get it to the correct way ,, does anybody has this problem ?

BTW i am using the COAX output


----------



## FredA

I almost never turn mine off. I use i2s almost exclusively. Never noticed this problem. Perhaps the isssue is with the dac's fw


----------



## sajunky (Aug 27, 2021)

I also suggest to change a cable. I saw cables with incorrect impedance, other time cable i good, but not matching plugs. Not many people are aware that there are two types of plugs 50 and 75 Ohms. Incorrect use cause signal reflection.


----------



## GU1DO

FredA said:


> I almost never turn mine off. I use i2s almost exclusively. Never noticed this problem. Perhaps the isssue is with the dac's fw


No , i tried it in 2 dacs ,, same issue


----------



## GU1DO

sajunky said:


> I also suggest to change a cable. I saw cables with incorrect impedance, other time cable i good, but not matching plugs. Not many people are aware that there are two types of plugs 50 and 75 Ohms. Incorrect use cause signal reflection.


I will try that tho all my cables are 75 ohm , so not sure if that will help


----------



## FredA (Aug 29, 2021)

GU1DO said:


> I will try that tho all my cables are 75 ohm , so not sure if that will help


The spdif outs are 75ohm, so you are fine. My di20 fw is 3.933. Maybe the issue has to do with the fw you use.


----------



## PLGA

Hi guys 
Can anyone recomend a good budget RG400 BNC cable (50 ohm)?

Someone recomended me some pro brands, but I can't find the post and I don't remember the brands. Mogami, Belden, Canare? 

Thxs


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Hi guys
> Can anyone recomend a good budget RG400 BNC cable (50 ohm)?
> 
> Someone recomended me some pro brands, but I can't find the post and I don't remember the brands. Mogami, Belden, Canare?
> ...


Got all mine on ebay. Rg402 is even better. Afterdark do sell 50 ohm cables. I got a red one from them.


----------



## smodtactical

DACLadder said:


> @ToddRaymond   I own a lot of DDCs including the Singxers (SU1, F1, SU6).  Sound quality with the DI20HE beats the Singxers.  Operationally, in my Linux based system, I would say the DI20HEs only tick was transitions from DSD to PCM.  Loud pop originally.  But am running trial Amanero firmware that seems to quell any most noises on these transitions with the Linux systems.  Kingwa is working with Amanero for a permanent solution.  The Linux based pops occur with the internal Amanero USB board and DI20.
> 
> Kingwa told me he did not use the Amanero MUTE output as its use affected sound quality negatively.
> 
> So we are waiting on different Amanero firmware.  I rarely play DSD files anyway.  PCM has always been flawless. If anyone would like to purchase a SU-6 let me know.


Interesting. @GoldenOne  found SU6 to beat di20he and even gaia! Apparently measures better and I think he likes it better subjectively too.


----------



## DACLadder (Oct 7, 2021)

Audio GD may not be for everyone and each system is different.  The Singxers do function flawlesly but I have no issue with the DI20HE playing PCM files.  I tried the SU-6 last week with the HE7 and like the DI20HE better (sound quality).  The external 10M capability on both the DDC and DAC is a very nice feature to explore if you have deep enough pockets.

How does the SU-6 measure better?  Just curious.


----------



## GoldenOne

DACLadder said:


> Audio GD may not be for everyone and each system is different.  The Singxers do function flawlesly but I have no issue with the DI20HE playing PCM files.  I tried the SU-6 last week with the HE7 and like the DI20HE better (sound quality).  The external 10M capability on both the DDC and DAC are very nice features to explore if you have deep enough pockets.
> 
> How does the SU-6 measure better?  Just curious.


The SU6 has lower peak and RMS jitter, and also has no jitter spurs in the audible band but the DI20HE does have a few.
Additionally the SU6 has lower noise on the output.

They're both exceptional though and hardly a bad choice to be made.

https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/audio-gd-di20he-measurements/
https://goldensound.audio/2021/08/01/singxer-su6-measurements/


----------



## PeterCraig

I had both the DI-20HE and SU-6. There is no doubt the SU-6 is a solid piece of equipment. I feel Singxer is a company that can deliver. 

The DI-20HE sounds better though. And in no small way.


----------



## DACLadder

@GoldenOne  Appreciate the fair minded test reports without biased comments. Listing test equipment and test conditions.  That is the way to write test reports!  Thanks!


----------



## interweb-tech

This small flurry of activity prompted me to check for updates to the Amanero Combo 384 drivers. Audio-gd still offers the combo384_drivers_w10_1062 from 2017. Popped over to Amanero web site (https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm) and found a newer driver combo384_drivers_w10_1067 dated 12/16/2020. No release notes so no idea what has changed. Installed without issue on my Win11 laptop connected to DI-20HE.

ps. Since Roon appears to id eligible devices based on the driver, I had to enable the new version for Roon to allow its selection for playback.


----------



## sajunky

Tried both on win7/10 when troubleshooting couple months ago, no difference. Do not bother to install on Win7, driver version number is the same, just different installer.


----------



## interweb-tech

sajunky said:


> Tried both on win7/10 when troubleshooting couple months ago, no difference. Do not bother to install on Win7, driver version number is the same, just different installer.


Not sure how you determined that the driver is the same as the older one. Windows 11 Device Manager clearly shows a different version number and build date for the driver.


----------



## sajunky

interweb-tech said:


> Not sure how you determined that the driver is the same as the older one. Windows 11 Device Manager clearly shows a different version number and build date for the driver.


On Win7 is the same driver.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I love my DI-20HE.  It is not all about more or less jitter.  I LOVE the firmware options and how they drastically effect the sound signature.  They allow for finetuning which other DDC's - to my knowledge do not and USB direct to R-7HE does not.  Even if the actual sound was not technically improved by the DI-20HE over direct USB or other DDC's, the firmware option along with the external clock option are very meaningful to me. 

By the way, there is NO WAY the DI-20HE with a Mutec Ref 10 SE-120 is going to output more jitter than the strongest DDC competition without the clock.  Just not believable to me.


----------



## smodtactical

rsbrsvp said:


> I love my DI-20HE.  It is not all about more or less jitter.  I LOVE the firmware options and how they drastically effect the sound signature.  They allow for finetuning which other DDC's - to my knowledge do not and USB direct to R-7HE does not.  Even if the actual sound was not technically improved by the DI-20HE over direct USB or other DDC's, the firmware option along with the external clock option are very meaningful to me.
> 
> By the way, there is NO WAY the DI-20HE with a Mutec Ref 10 SE-120 is going to output more jitter than the strongest DDC competition without the clock.  Just not believable to me.



I think one argument is other ddc have external clock option too.


----------



## sajunky (Oct 9, 2021)

smodtactical said:


> I think one argument is other ddc have external clock option too.


These clock implementations are different. By example Gaia use two separate clock inputs, one for 44.1k and other for 48k  familiy, it can be fed by Terminator(+). It means that Terminator+ is end game - not upgradeable to a better quality clock. The current trend is to feed both DDC and a DAC with external 10MHz clock device (the same for both).


----------



## GoldenOne

I'm hoping to get the mutec 10mhz clock in for a week or so at somepoint. Will be interesting to see how it affects different ddcs


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 13, 2021)

Only after ordering a DI-20HE customized for 75 Ohm clock input, I found this mammoth thread and while waiting for it to be delivered (hopefully by the end of this week) I read all its 200 pages. What a treasure trove of information, thanks all!

To start slightly OT:

@FredA: I fully agree with your description of Wes Montgomery and could not have formulated it better 

@sajunky, you said
Pegasus users are busy with replacing fuses with expensive "audiophile quality" parts. People with some levels of understanding wouldn't become Pegasus users in first place.
Can you please explain?

The DI will come with fw 1.075, includes a usb blaster and is planned to be used in a setup without usb and without network:

- source: RPi4 + Pi2AES with moOde and local files (network used only to move files and operate moOde; network deactivated while playing; no streaming services)
- preamplification + processing: MiniDSP SHD Studio with Dirac room correction
- timing: Afterdark Emperor Double Crown 75 Ohm 10MHz reference clock (single sinewave output)
- conversion: DI-20HE into Musician Pegasus DAC (Aquarius on its way)
- Reimyo KAP-777 power amp, TAD ME1 speakers + 2x KEF KC62 subs
- Taket H2+TR2 headphones
- LPS: Paul Hynes SR4T 5-12V and SR4 9-19V, Afterdark Black Modernize dual 12V 5A

Of course I will compare the external clock with the internal DI one after some break-in.

I already have some good cables which I will try first: spdif Oyaide, and AES/EBU Swisscables, Nordost & Vovox.

Also I have a flat 30 cm hdmi cable made for drones etc. Anyone tried that? Here is an example:
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32968002073.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.18256f59vIajOR&algo_pvid=9edec358-bc4b-46e0-8bde-42b8ac48d2bb&algo_exp_id=9edec358-bc4b-46e0-8bde-42b8ac48d2bb-0&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"66592901028"}

As I read of some problems with the Pi2AES and spdif into the DI: have these been solved? Any other Pi2AES users here?


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> Only after ordering a DI-20HE customized for 75 Ohm clock input, I found this mammoth thread and while waiting for it to be delivered (hopefully by the end of this week) I read all its 200 pages. What a treasure trove of information, thanks all!
> 
> To start slightly OT:
> 
> ...


No experience with the cable. Unless you custom ordered the di20he for 75-ohm, you will need an impedance adaptor. The di20he should sound better when fed through the usb input, so the pi2aes likely is not needed.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 13, 2021)

FredA said:


> No experience with the cable. Unless you custom ordered the di20he for 75-ohm, you will need an impedance adaptor.


I did!
("Only after ordering a DI-20HE customized for 75 Ohm clock input...")



FredA said:


> The di20he should sound better when fed through the usb input, so the pi2aes likely is not needed.


Is there consensus on this? The Pi2AES hat is supposed to reduce jitter considerably...
But I will certainly try both options (usb and spdif in) and report back.
A pity I just sold my serious usb cables (Lush^2).


----------



## Jandu

Is there consensus on this? 
[/QUOTE]

Don't think so, however, I have really good success with DI20HE with 2x RPi4Bs(1 used as server, and 1 for player). Player is USB connected to DI20HE with IIS out via HDMI to DAC.


----------



## myshark

Hi. There is new amareno fw for linux optimise. But no new fw for the fpga for di20.
Should we update the new amareno? Would it be compatible with current fpga fw?
Or we could expect new fpga fw for di20?


----------



## FredA

myshark said:


> Hi. There is new amareno fw for linux optimise. But no new fw for the fpga for di20.
> Should we update the new amareno? Would it be compatible with current fpga fw?
> Or we could expect new fpga fw for di20?


No problem. I did update mine.


----------



## Jandu

myshark said:


> Hi. There is new amareno fw for linux optimise. But no new fw for the fpga for di20.
> Should we update the new amareno? Would it be compatible with current fpga fw?
> Or we could expect new fpga fw for di20?


Works on my DI20HE which connects to an older gen R8HE via IIS. I am solely using linux server based (RPi) music player. I did run into issues using Win10 PC to upgrade. The problem went away using a Win7 for update. 

I did not upgrade the R8HE (first gen).


----------



## PeterCraig

FYI I have upgraded to Windows 11 a few days ago and no issues with the DI-20 driver.

Or anything for that matter.


----------



## bodiebill2

I expect my DI-20HE tomorrow and was planning to use it in the chain where I currently have a Mutec MC-3+ USB, as follows: 

      Pi2AES --> MiniDSP Studio Dirac/preamp --> DI-20HE --> Musician Pegasus DAC

Or should I put the DI-20 before the MiniDSP Studio Dirac/preamp?

It will be used with or without Afterdark reference clock; I will try both of course.


----------



## Jandu

bodiebill2 said:


> Or should I put the DI-20 before the MiniDSP Studio Dirac/preamp?



Try it without the MiniDSP first, I would suggest.

DI20HE needs a lot of hours to burn-in, so you have at least 1-2 weeks before the "real" music will show up.

Enjoy.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 26, 2021)

The Dirac treatment has a beneficial effect on the sound as it 'locks in' the stereo image based on room characteristics. I believe this is done partly by time alignment for both speakers and subs. It makes the image fall into place. The qualities of the DI-20 operate in a different domain. So I do not expect that I want to miss out on the MiniDSP. Also it functions as preamp.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> The Dirac treatment has a beneficial effect on the sound as it 'locks in' the stereo image based on room characteristics. I believe this is done partly by time alignment for both speakers and subs. It makes the image fall into place. The qualities of the DI-20 operate in a different domain. So I do not expect that I want to miss out on the MiniDSP. Also it functions as preamp.


If you feed the di20he through sipdf, you may be limited to 24 bits, no sure. No so good for volume control.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 27, 2021)

The (all digital) MiniDSP Studio confines me to 24/96 or below anyway, regardless of connection cable.

I used to be a hires addict and upsampled everything to DSD256. I stopped doing that when finding that the benefits of Dirac using the MiniDSP at 24/96 were greater than hires without Dirac.

I never expected that I could be happy with digital volume control, and never was. But the MiniDSP Studio made me change my mind. Its volume control is crisp clear, like an open window into the sound image and comparable to my previous marvelous The Truth (Hornshoppe) preamp

I am now using AES/EBU connections (Swisscable, Nordost and Vovox) only but will also try I2S between the DI-20 and the DAC. The latter of course dictates the DI-20's position in the chain, answering my earlier question.

And when everything is settled in I will also try without MiniDSP:

    Pi2AES --> AES/EBU --> DI-20HE --> I2S/hdmi --> DAC --> The Truth preamp --> Reimyo KAP-777 amp

for comparison.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> The (all digital) MiniDSP Studio confines me to 24/96 or below anyway, regardless of connection cable.
> 
> I used to be a hires addict and upsampled everything to DSD256. I stopped doing that when finding that the benefits of Dirac using the MiniDSP at 24/96 were greater than hires without Dirac.
> 
> ...


The di20 has only 3 inputs. Rca, usb and a bnc clock input. And 4 outputs: aes/ebu, rca, bnc and i2s.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 27, 2021)

The DI-20HE (version with 75 Ohm 10 MHz input) just arrived and out of the box sounds great with the external Afterdark EmperorDouble Crown reference clock.
As to be expected before burn in, it sounds better with the external clock: better imaging, more flesh. But the difference is not huge and I can imagine that internal and external can compete after sufficient break in.

So I will play music 24/7 for the time being. I do not think that this needs to be done at the internal setting for the internal clocks to break in, and that the external setting will do just as fine for this. Correct?


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> The di20 has only 3 inputs. Rca, usb and a bnc clock input. And 4 outputs: aes/ebu, rca, bnc and i2s.



Thanks, I knew but forgot. I am now using an Oyaide spdif cable from the MiniDSP Studio to the DI-20 and AES for the rest. I will experiment with I2S later.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> The DI-20HE (version with 75 Ohm 10 MHz input) just arrived and out of the box sounds great with the external Afterdark EmperorDouble Crown reference clock.
> As to be expected before burn in, it sounds better with the external clock: better imaging, more flesh. But the difference is not huge and I can imagine that internal and external can compete after sufficient break in.
> 
> So I will play music 24/7 for the time being. I do not think that this needs to be done at the internal setting for the internal clocks to break in, and that the external setting will do just as fine for this. Correct?


The biggest difference is when used on the dac in an audio-gd setup. The best setup is still with the di20he feeding i2sto the r7  but the r7's usb input is really excellent. Small difference.


----------



## Jandu

A few users here are finding the I2S output to the DAC is the best connection used between DI20HE and the DAC.


----------



## bodiebill2

Jandu said:


> A few users here are finding the I2S output to the DAC is the best connection used between DI20HE and the DAC.


 Listening with I2S now (an AudioQuest Pearl hdmi cable I still had lying around) and I think I slightly prefer it to AES. The sound reaches more to the left and right of the speakers.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 28, 2021)

Replacing the 60 cm Audioquest Pearl with a 25 cm generic Chinese flat cable used for drones, the latter gave even better results. More clarity and details without fatigue. So now I have ordered a 10 cm (!) flat shielded hdmi cable with special angled terminations (A3 and A5):
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002447696308.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.65d74c4dRBLMKx
The battle between cheap and short vs pricey high end 
For this the DI-20 and the Aquarius will need to be very intimate: I will put the former directly on top of the latter (as soon as arrived).


----------



## newabc

Someone mentioned LINDY Cromo USB 2.0 A to B cable in bbs.audio-gd.com. 
I ordered one and will use it for playing youtube audios from an old gigabyte motherboard with "DAC-UP" USB ports. Will wait and see.


----------



## dnnaudio

Hi there. Has anyone compared side by side how much more superior the HE to non-HE model in a midfi setup? I am considering this for my office setup:

Laptop > USB > W4S Recovery > Singxer F1 > SPDIF > Accuphase DP500 CDP/DAC > Plinius 9200 Amp > Harbeth P3ESR

For reference the Accuphase DP500 DAC section is close to but not up to the performance of a Chord Hugo2 DAC. It was clearly better than a Hugo1, so it is decent though far from reference class. I am thinking the HE might be overkill for this system as the DAC and amp are mid class and might not show its full prowess over the non-HE. It's an office system w/ limited budget but I listen to several hours a day. Would appreciate your thoughts.


----------



## PeterCraig

I had both versions and compared side by side. Once you've tried the best DDC you can never imagine going back. The price difference is negligible, so if you have the budget I suggest the HE version. It will make a difference for your Accuphase.


----------



## dnnaudio

PeterCraig said:


> I had both versions and compared side by side. Once you've tried the best DDC you can never imagine going back. The price difference is negligible, so if you have the budget I suggest the HE version. It will make a difference for your Accuphase.


Noted thanks. The DP500 is a 15 year old Accuphase model when I had it new it was reference class but these days I think a boutique $2,000 DAC will handily beat it. You were probably comparing the two on a much more resolved system?


----------



## PeterCraig

They were hooked up to my trusty 8 year old Audio-gd M7 dac. It does have the advantage of an I2s input.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aud...lly-balanced-dac-pcm1704.625793/post-16461700


----------



## dnnaudio

In your review you suggested the DI20 non HE performs in similar level as a Singxer SU6. If that’s the case I may not hear a significant improvement as opposed to the w4s Recovery + Singxer F1 I currently use.


----------



## PeterCraig

dnnaudio said:


> In your review you suggested the DI20 non HE performs in similar level as a Singxer SU6. If that’s the case I may not hear a significant improvement as opposed to the w4s Recovery + Singxer F1 I currently use.



For sure you will see a major improvement. Also not sure what power supply you are using, one of the main features of the DI-20HE and SU6 is their power supply. Clean power takes these units to another level.


----------



## dnnaudio

Thanks. The w4s Recovery (w/ ifi power X psu) significantly improved the Singxer F1, so that I would think it’s performance gap w/ an SU6 alone (w/ stock psu) is probably minor. So if the DI20 non HE is similar in performance to SU6 I might not see a substantial gain. All gears are plugged to a shunyata hydra v8v2 power conditioner.


----------



## PeterCraig

Sounds like you are diligently doing your research. And after careful consideration of the upgrade path options if you do get a new DDC it will be interesting to hear your feedback.


----------



## LWPS (Nov 1, 2021)

Hello, happy to join the DI20 group here. My new DI20 (not HE) is burning in, nearly 120 hours from its arrival last Thursday.100 hours was really a mark, a big jump to my hears, knowing I've to be patience to wait until 250+.

It's fed by an old Mac Mini with Audirvana Studio, and to my beloved Sonnet Morpheus.

The DI20 replaced my 1 year old Schiit Eitr, which the comparison told me the  USD 99 Eitr was at a good value though DI20 beat it at its 20 hours warm status.

A problem so far, noise/ distortion appears when it plays 24/96 or above music, and Tidal MQA. Not every song, interestingly going lower from 80% possibility as in the burning process, but still there unfortunately. I found some of the owners here experienced the same problem, could you share how it was solved? I'm connecting DI20 to DAC by ACSS, tried both spdif output with the same result.


----------



## interweb-tech

LWPS said:


> Hello, happy to join the DI20 group here. My new DI20 (not HE) is burning in, nearly 20 hours from its arrival last Thursday.100 hours was really a mark, a big jump to my hears, knowing I've to be patience to wait until 250+.
> 
> It's fed by an old Mac Mini with Audirvana Studio, and to my beloved Sonnet Morpheus.
> 
> ...



Dell Inspiron 15 7570 ~ Shunyata Venom USB ~ Audio-gd DI-20HE ~ Wireworld Chroma 7 I2S ~ Audio-gd R-27

No distortion, no noise


----------



## LWPS

Thinman said:


> Eric, no, this distortion is more a kind of constant static like a veil of noise. On 24/96 it is very minor but noticeable. Yes, i will try to share info from AGD when i have it.


Hello Thinman

Has the noise gone? If yes could you share how it was solved? Thanks.


----------



## LWPS

interweb-tech said:


> Dell Inspiron 15 7570 ~ Shunyata Venom USB ~ Audio-gd DI-20HE ~ Wireworld Chroma 7 I2S ~ Audio-gd R-27
> 
> No distortion, no noise


That's good. Contacted Kingwa, he advised to try change some settings in Audirvana Studio; try standard coaxial out...All didn't work..

Have to figure out what makes the distortion, the Mac Mini, the software, something in DI20, the cables...etc..


----------



## LWPS

Despite the distortion, the DI20 sounds really good. Not appropriate for me to conclude the sound at its 120 hour time, it just sounds transparent with the body stays, low noise floor. I've tried a short while the SU6 (with stock Meanwell PSU) borrowed from my friend, honestly I unplugged it after several songs in 15 mins. SQ - no surprise in my system, and I felt it emphasizes richness, "audiophile" vocal, in all not my taste. 

For the DI20, the SQ with its stock cable, stock fuse makes me happy. It's at similar price as the SU6, it was a bet to me but I trust the users comments in the post, finally its positive.


----------



## Baci

LWPS said:


> Hello, happy to join the DI20 group here. My new DI20 (not HE) is burning in, nearly 120 hours from its arrival last Thursday.100 hours was really a mark, a big jump to my hears, knowing I've to be patience to wait until 250+.
> 
> It's fed by an old Mac Mini with Audirvana Studio, and to my beloved Sonnet Morpheus.
> 
> ...


I had experienced the noise - infuriating, as it appeared also to happen almost randomly. Sometimes a track would play distorted, then the next day it would be fine. Playing MQA files was an issue almost always, as were other combinations of bit depth and sampling rate. I eventually fixed the problem by using HQPlayer and forcing everything into a max 192kz 24 bit signal. It has the added benefit of adding some stunning filters to the mix and really improving the performance of the system. I had previously tried getting Roon to force sample rate conversion but for some easing that didn't fix the problem whereas HQPlayer certainly has. For completeness I should add that I swapped out my DAC for a Mytek Brooklyn DAC with native MQA deciding and that worked flawlessly while I had it. It just did sound especially pleasing so I went back to my slightly quirk tube DAC. That was an indicator that maybe it wasn't the DDC that was the issue. Hope this helps. I'm eager to establish the root cause of this as well.


----------



## LWPS (Nov 2, 2021)

Baci said:


> I had experienced the noise - infuriating, as it appeared also to happen almost randomly. Sometimes a track would play distorted, then the next day it would be fine. Playing MQA files was an issue almost always, as were other combinations of bit depth and sampling rate. I eventually fixed the problem by using HQPlayer and forcing everything into a max 192kz 24 bit signal. It has the added benefit of adding some stunning filters to the mix and really improving the performance of the system. I had previously tried getting Roon to force sample rate conversion but for some easing that didn't fix the problem whereas HQPlayer certainly has. For completeness I should add that I swapped out my DAC for a Mytek Brooklyn DAC with native MQA deciding and that worked flawlessly while I had it. It just did sound especially pleasing so I went back to my slightly quirk tube DAC. That was an indicator that maybe it wasn't the DDC that was the issue. Hope this helps. I'm eager to establish the root cause of this as well.



Thanks Baci for sharing. You described the problem a lot more precise than I did.

"Sometimes a track would play distorted, then the next day it would be fine "
  > yes, sometimes a track returns to normal when it starts again after playing a 44.1 song 

Forcing to max 192kz 24 bit signal > let me try if I can it in Audirvana Studio, from my memory I can only limit the output to a max rate.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Nov 7, 2021)

Interim update after 250 hrs burn in:
I loved the sound from the start, possibly partly as a result of using an external 10 MHz / 75 Ohm reference clock (Afterdark Emperor Double Crown).
This still sounds better (more open and deep soundstage, quieter) than the internal clock although the difference has become less obvious.
I prefer the P(arallel) to the S(erial) setting.
Occasionaly there was a tiny glitch but not so often that it was irritating. This did not occur in the last few days.
I still prefer the I2S/hdmi output (to a Musician Pegasus). Some new hdmi cables are still on their way to me.
Never regretted my purchase 

Question: is there a fuse somehere under the hood? If yes, what are the specs? Anyone tried replacing it?


----------



## PeterCraig

I'm pretty sure there is no fuse to replace.

I had a tiny glitch when switching sample rates at the beginning of burn in. After a few hundred hours it went away and never reappeared.


----------



## LWPS

bodiebill2 said:


> Question: is there a fuse somehere under the hood? If yes, what are the specs? Anyone tried replacing it?



From Kingwa - no fuse to replace, the protection is built-in in the transformer design. 

My DI-20 is also at around 250 hours, same tiny glitch.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Nov 8, 2021)

LWPS said:


> From Kingwa - no fuse to replace, the protection is built-in in the transformer design.
> 
> My DI-20 is also at around 250 hours, same tiny glitch.



Thanks for the info and good to compare notes! 

Today I received two Moshou hdmi cables, 0,5 and 2m respectively.
Comparison was quick and easy: the short one is a keeper with good soundstage and smoothness. The 2m one does not sound right at all: soundstage collapses and listening becomes a ping-pong game, meaning that at any time I have to decide whether to concentrate on the left or the right channel. With the short cable there is one coherent soundstage spread evenly between the speakers.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi again guys, 

My DI-20 has been a LOVE/HATE lately. Unbelievably good sound with huge soundstage especially with good USB decrapifiers and ferrite chokes on my USB cable - BUT it's developed a horrendous hiss almost every time I use it. Especially on power-up when I play direct to the Amanero / Wasapi method I get a loud white noise hiss over the audio signal. I used to be able to remedy it with an occasional toggling of the bit / sample rate to something like 16/44 and back again to 24/88, which had the off effect of making it disappear. But now I have to do that like 27 times every time I power it up until it finally wants to have a black background like a good boy!!!

Any suggestions on this? I have one of the newer firmwares for the DI-20 but I thought to try updating the Amanero / Wasapi firmware. Is this the best link?
https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm


----------



## sajunky

DecentLevi said:


> Any suggestions on this? I have one of the newer firmwares for the DI-20 but I thought to try updating the Amanero / Wasapi firmware. Is this the best link?
> https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm


It can be a problem on the connection between DI-20 and a DAC. Can you be more specific on a device and an interface? Do it change behaviour if you switch by example from HDMI to coax?

Question on drivers can be eliminated by switching from WASAPI to ASIO or using a native UAC 2.0 Windows drivers (uninstalling Amanero drivers).


----------



## DecentLevi

sajunky said:


> It can be a problem on the connection between DI-20 and a DAC. Can you be more specific on a device and an interface? Do it change behaviour if you switch by example from HDMI to coax?
> 
> Question on drivers can be eliminated by switching from WASAPI to ASIO or using a native UAC 2.0 Windows drivers (uninstalling Amanero drivers).


Thanks for your input. I switched to ASIO instead of Wasapi and so far it's working, without static hiss even after resetting the whole system. This issue has manifested itself in multiple ways and configurations with the DI-20 so time will tell on this solution. I'm using digital RCA coax which is the only compatible connection between the DDC and DAC.

All this time I've had ASIO laying around for other audio purposes but never used it for hi-fi audio. I was under the impression the ASIO protocol may involve packet loss of some sort due to going through some sort of multiple back & forth relays or multiple conversions in its processes, or let me know if I'm wrong on that?


----------



## PeterCraig (Nov 14, 2021)

I only use ASIO as it works best for a multi user PC on my setup (you can switch users in Windows and the music playback won't be interrupted). No discernible sound difference between ASIO and Wasapi.


----------



## PeterCraig

BTW I'm burning in a very reasonably priced pure silver HDMI cable recommended by Fred. I'm passing the 200 hour mark and I feel it is going to slay my current trusty cable. Many more hours to go still though.


----------



## sajunky (Nov 13, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Thanks for your input. I switched to ASIO instead of Wasapi and so far it's working, without static hiss even after resetting the whole system. This issue has manifested itself in multiple ways and configurations with the DI-20 so time will tell on this solution. I'm using digital RCA coax which is the only compatible connection between the DDC and DAC.
> 
> All this time I've had ASIO laying around for other audio purposes but never used it for hi-fi audio. I was under the impression the ASIO protocol may involve packet loss of some sort due to going through some sort of multiple back & forth relays or multiple conversions in its processes, or let me know if I'm wrong on that?


Glad to hear that it works well on ASIO. It confirms my guess that a problem is with PC configuration or a system is heavily loaded. ASIO is bypassing Windows sound setting, giving application more control over device, it is one things. I suggest to test bit-perfect Windows configuration, to see whether system-wide mixer is bypassed or not. A good test is playing DSD files. If you get a noise and a DAC/DDC is reporting DSD, it is not bit-perfect path. The other one (more complicated issue) is that current Amanero Windows drivers chose bulk transfer mode (like with hard drives). It works bit-perfect till USB hub is heavy loaded, as there is no bandwidth reservation that audio streaming modes acquire from the system. It is why I suggested uninstalling Amanero drivers for testing. Windows built-in UAC 2.0 drivers use asynchronous transfer mode that feature bandwidth reservation, *possibly the same mode your DAC use* when connected directly. If switching to the Windows drivers fixes the issue (like ASIO did), then with bulk transfers (Amanero WASAPI drivers ) you should chose a different USB port which is served by a different root hub.

I think you are wrong about ASIO. There is no conversion, no packet loss. The same with WASAPI exclusive mode. Both should deliver the same performance, but with WASAPI an additional configuration for exclusive mode is required in Windows Sound control panel.


----------



## LWPS

sajunky said:


> Glad to hear that it works well on ASIO. It confirms my guess that a problem is with PC configuration or a system is heavily loaded. ASIO is bypassing Windows sound setting, giving application more control over device, it is one things. I suggest to test bit-perfect Windows configuration, to see whether system-wide mixer is bypassed or not. A good test is playing DSD files. If you get a noise and a DAC/DDC is reporting DSD, it is not bit-perfect path. The other one (more complicated issue) is that current Amanero Windows drivers chose bulk transfer mode (like with hard drives). It works bit-perfect till USB hub is heavy loaded, as there is no bandwidth reservation that audio streaming modes acquire from the system. It is why I suggested uninstalling Amanero drivers for testing. Windows built-in UAC 2.0 drivers use asynchronous transfer mode that feature bandwidth reservation, *possibly the same mode your DAC use* when connected directly. If switching to the Windows drivers fixes the issue (like ASIO did), then with bulk transfers (Amanero WASAPI drivers ) you should chose a different USB port which is served by a different root hub.
> 
> I think you are wrong about ASIO. There is no conversion, no packet loss. The same with WASAPI exclusive mode. Both should deliver the same performance, but with WASAPI an additional configuration for exclusive mode is required in Windows Sound control panel.


Great learning there's a solution. 

I don't know much on settings, my music source is from a Mac Mini, and Amanero is showed in Audirvana Studio without choice of WASAPI /ASIO, think it's different from Windows. Anything I can do when I'm experiencing the same problem that DecentLevi had. @DecentLevi, hope you've got the final right solution.


----------



## sajunky

LWPS said:


> Great learning there's a solution.
> 
> I don't know much on settings, my music source is from a Mac Mini, and Amanero is showed in Audirvana Studio without choice of WASAPI /ASIO, think it's different from Windows. Anything I can do when I'm experiencing the same problem that DecentLevi had. @DecentLevi, hope you've got the final right solution.


Mac OS mixer output gives less SQ loss than in Windows, as sound system use 32-bit floating point format (like linux kernel for the last 15 years), so bypassing mixer is less important. However there is some settings in the MIDI applet and I am suspect that Mac Audirvana has setting for exclusive mode, check it out. There is also a workaround for Apple repetitively breaking the official exclusive mode with new OS updates, called Integer Mode. It use a known feature that Mac OS do not convert integer audio to the floating format, but sending it out directly bit-perfect, effectively bypassing mixer. Also worth to investigate.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks again folks for trying to help. Actually what I tried to say was that when I tried the other output type it worked (that once), but since this is a randomly occurring issue with the DI-20 I just got lucky. The next few days have shown the true face of using ASIO with DI-20 on my system that the overlaid static is a bit quieter but occurs more often; after unpausing music rather than jus on boot-up. ASIO is definitely smoother on play/pause than WASAPI, that's for sure. Actually both methods bypass Windows sound, I think they just have a very different protocol of doing it. 

Don't worry about my issue folks I'll try to troubleshoot it. Could be down to a faulty DI-20 or old laptop. I only have 2 working USB ports and only one to choose from for audio since the cable doesn't reach to the other side of my laptop; BTW the non-audio USB port is split to 7 components such as external HDD, chargers, webcam, mouse, keyboard, etc. Likely it will take an upgrade from standard to HE version DI-20 and/or a new laptop, unless I go that entirely different previously discussed protocol with an Ethernet adapter box. I hadn't tried uninstalling WASAPI yet though, just switched over to my existing ASIO instead.


----------



## sajunky (Nov 16, 2021)

DecentLevi said:


> Don't worry about my issue folks I'll try to troubleshoot it. Could be down to a faulty DI-20 or old laptop. I only have 2 working USB ports and only one to choose from for audio since the cable doesn't reach to the other side of my laptop; BTW the non-audio USB port is split to 7 components such as external HDD, chargers, webcam, mouse, keyboard, etc.


I have a suggestion to plug DI-20 directly and all other devices connect to a hub on the remaining port. You have multiple devices, some high speed, other like mouse keyboard or mouse are low-speed other full-speed and you need a high-speed for your DI-20, your hub should have MTT (multiple transaction translator). Not all hubs have such feature, bandwidth on the uplink is wasted when the slowest device speaks to the host. It could be in your case. Get a good 2.0 hub with MTT for these devices, you can move the current hub to the DI-20 link (if cable length is an issue), but with only DI-20 attached to this hub. I don’t think you need a new laptop, any Core 2 Duo (even Celeron M) based laptop is good for the job.


----------



## DecentLevi

sajunky said:


> I have a suggestion to plug DI-20 directly and all other devices connect to a hub on the remaining port. You have multiple devices, some high speed, other like mouse keyboard or mouse are low-speed and you need a super speed for your DI-20, your hub should have MTT (multiple transaction translator). Not all hubs have such feature, bandwidth on the uplink is wasted when the slowest device speaks to the host. It could be in your case. Get a good 2.0 hub with MTT for these devices, you can move the current hub to the DI-20 link (if cable length is an issue), but with only DI-20 attached to this hub. I don’t think you need a new laptop, any Core 2 Duo (even Celeron M) based laptop is good for the job.


Oh yes this is what I've been doing since day one. Never mix pro-audio with other USB devices, and all others on a hub. Thanks for looking out. I'll post if I get it sorted out sometime.


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## myshark

Hi there,
After changing to the new fw and amereno linux usb, my spotify connect cannot connect.
Tidal connect have no such problem.
Is there anybody that have this problem. The spdif input ok. Only when using usb input in the di20.
Is this due to the new amereno linux?

Thanks for any input.


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## bodiebill2 (Nov 17, 2021)

My DI-20HE was delivered with the 075 firmware. Partly out of curiosity and partly because I still experience glitches when playing (coax in, I2S out), I would like to try a different firmware. But which one?

Below are some impressions from different users in this thread. As people have had more time to listen since the latest fw (075 and 076) came out, any further views on fw SQ, character and functionality?

_Sundry impressions from this thread (different authors):_

Friday I upgraded my DI-20 from v. 3.9 to v. 4.07 and had the same feeling: it has been better.
By a sudden impulse I shifted back to firmware v. 3.32 and found this was much better - my set-up played with an effortless ease and natural sound that was wonderfull to listen to.
4.07, treble seems to sound different...but this is just a first impulse and i will keep 4.07, to be sure...no issues with any firmware of the DI20HE.
Q: I'm running 3.933 firmware and I would like to try a smoother one. Was it 4.075 or 4.076 the smoother one?
 A: The 3.93Beta2
I love the beautiful analogue musicality of the new 4.075 and 4.076- but no question to my ears it is more smeared than earlier versions. I have flipped FW's many times to compare and have easily confirmed this. For now my favorite FW is 4.07b4 as the detail and dynamics are stunning and there is plenty of analogue flavor even though it is not as much as the new 75 and 76 versions.
As of the current firmware v4.075 and v4.076 I have no beautifying tweaks in use. The HE7 is not even running in TDA mode. And the DI20HE is in parallel mode. But still, very smoothed over... not enough definition going on. Specially microdynamics are suffering. Not as defined like with a friends Rega RP3 vinyl rig.
4.075/parallel/usb in, hdmi out/ external clock with external clock on R-7HE as well is the most analogue, musical, 3D sound I have heard on my system. R-7HE in NOS has more detail, in 8X upsample is more full and smooth, Same set-up with 4.076 has better detail, more forward, one step less musical but still extraordinarily musical.
Wow. 75 and 76 are the best versions yet IMHO. They do not sound like b3 and b4 with bug fixes to me. They are more musical, sweeter, more natural than any I have heard. Resolution is still excellent- but stresses the whole rather than hyper focus on micro plankton. JUST BEAUTIFUL-- is the best way to describe them.
This was my initial impression. b3 and 75 with the more 3D smooth sound and b4 along with 76 more forward, dynamic, clear. But both 75 and 76 are noticeably more honey glazed than their predecessors- gorgeous tonality..


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## bodiebill2

I just also tried the 4.076 and 3.933 fw versions. They all sound good but I fooled myself into believing that this is my order of preference:
   3.933 > 4.075 > 4.076
To my ears the 3.933 sounds a bit more precise with more presence and less distance. I will keep it in for now.
(I am at approx. 300 hrs burn in.)


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## myshark

myshark said:


> Hi there,
> After changing to the new fw and amereno linux usb, my spotify connect cannot connect.
> Tidal connect have no such problem.
> Is there anybody that have this problem. The spdif input ok. Only when using usb input in the di20.
> ...


Update: currently ifi is working on the spotify connect problem. Thus not AGD problem.
Btw, i am using 4.075 linux from chinese agd site with latest fw for r8he 2021 with amereno linux usb.
Sounds fabulous, the best sound yet from my rig.

Enjoy


----------



## iFi audio

myshark said:


> currently ifi is working on the spotify connect problem.



Yes, there is a known issue with connectivity between the ZEN Stream and Spotify and we're on it


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## hakunamakaka

How does DI-20 behave with macbooks ? I had denafrips IRIS DDC, loved the step up in SQ, but it casually froze my macbooks air OS, especially when unplugged and plugged it back to laptop. Drove me crazy so I sold it...


----------



## bodiebill2

About the occasional glitch (every 5 min?) that I experience with coax in, P(arallel) and I2S/hdmi out, it now appears that using AES out solves this.
Still using I2S, as I prefer the sound.
However, another setting -- although seemingly unrelated as I only use clock *in*put -- seems to help:
I changed clock output mode from "C" (256fs main clock) to "L" (LRCK/WCLK, word clock).
So far no glitches for 20 minutes. Fingers crossed. Anyone else tried this?

And by the way, I am now using a 60 cm Chroma 7 as I prefer it to the (even shorter) Moshou and brand-less shielded flat Drone cables.


----------



## TheManko

bodiebill2 said:


> I changed clock output mode from "C" (256fs main clock) to "L" (LRCK/WCLK, word clock).
> So far no glitches for 20 minutes. Fingers crossed. Anyone else tried this?
> 
> And by the way, I am now using a 60 cm Chroma 7 as I prefer it to the (even shorter) Moshou and brand-less shielded flat Drone cables.


I'm using internal clocks, so I've had no glitches of the kind you've experienced. But I've noticed that USB input can behave strangely after many restarts of the DI-20. Reflashing the Amanero firmware always solved it. Something to keep in mind if you run into any other mysterious glitches.

I received shorter HDMI cables today. A Moshou 25cm and a 10cm drone HDMI cable. I've only done brief comparisons against my 50cm Supra HDMI. But I think Supra might be best. I assumed shorter would be better, given the 0.5 meter Supra won easily against 1.5 meter and 2 meter HDMI cables. But it seems once the length gets within around 0.5 meters the quality of the cable matters more. It's interesting how the I2S HDMI cable changes the character of the sound. The 10cm cable, which is easily the worst built cable I've owned in a long time, has strangely dirty sound to it. It feels like it's adding a bunch of harmonic distortion to the signal. The 25cm Moshou cable is much cleaner and feels almost clinical in comparison. The flaw of the Moshou cable is that it adds a distinct fake timbre to the sound. It somehow messes up the midrange, making it feel sucked out. The 0.5 meter Supra cable gets it right. It feels like the most correct reproduction of the sound. That's why I'm not surprised, but also relieved for my sanity, that you're preferring a 60 cm cable of higher quality to shorter ones lol.


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## PeterCraig

HDMI cables also require hundreds of hours of burn in.

I'm working in a new one right now and have clocked 375 hours and we are not done yet.


----------



## sajunky

hakunamakaka said:


> How does DI-20 behave with macbooks ? I had denafrips IRIS DDC, loved the step up in SQ, but it casually froze my macbooks air OS, especially when unplugged and plugged it back to laptop. Drove me crazy so I sold it...


USB implementation is different. Denafrips use TheSycon libraries on the microprocessor doing many other things (similar XMOS, but it is a dedicated chip), DI-20 has a third-party Amanero Combo384 USB receiver module. I never heard similar problems with Amanero on MAC.


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## bodiebill2 (Nov 19, 2021)

Suddenly, as of today, I get loud continuous crackling noise (with the music underneath) when I play with the internal clock of the DI-20HE. Listening to music becomes impossible at this setting. This applies to P(arallel) as well as S(erial).
With the external clock it plays well.
Any idea?

P S Maybe it is the 3.933 fw? I will try to go back to 4.075 when I get the chance and report back.


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## hakunamakaka

sajunky said:


> USB implementation is different. Denafrips use TheSycon libraries on the microprocessor doing many other things (similar XMOS, but it is a dedicated chip), DI-20 has a third-party Amanero Combo384 USB receiver module. I never heard similar problems with Amanero on MAC.



Thanks a lot for an update. I was planning to get clean source like Digione Signature player, but now this got my attention. How these things impact SQ is a mystery to me, but denafrips IRIS made a significant upgrade with Utopia compared to direct route to Qutest DAC. With DDC in my case whole presentation became less aggressive with clearer imaging and better bass slam. Question is how far DI-20 goes if any, but I'll be honest it is hard to resist


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## sajunky

hakunamakaka said:


> With DDC in my case whole presentation became less aggressive with clearer imaging and better bass slam. Question is how far DI-20 goes if any, but I'll be honest it is hard to resist


How far it goes, I don’t know. I am sure not worse, as DI-20 is a better DDC. So far you found you need a clean USB, it is expected when driving from PC.


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## bodiebill2

bodiebill2 said:


> Suddenly, as of today, I get loud continuous crackling noise (with the music underneath) when I play with the internal clock of the DI-20HE. Listening to music becomes impossible at this setting. This applies to P(arallel) as well as S(erial).
> With the external clock it plays well.
> Any idea?
> 
> P S Maybe it is the 3.933 fw? I will try to go back to 4.075 when I get the chance and report back.



I went back to 4.075 and now it plays well with both the internal and external clocks. Good to know.
For reasons of comparsion (internal vs external) I will now stick with 4.075 but I may go back later to 3.933 external if I still prefer its SQ.


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## roni44

hakunamakaka said:


> How does DI-20 behave with macbooks ? I had denafrips IRIS DDC, loved the step up in SQ, but it casually froze my macbooks air OS, especially when unplugged and plugged it back to laptop. Drove me crazy so I sold it...


I've been using DI-20 with 2013 MacBook Pro, Audirvana, Itune, Apple Music, and Tidal, even ran Dirac live processor, DI-20 never gave me issues. Only glitch I can think of is to turn off and on few times to get sound after DI-20 was disconnected or powered off.


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## hakunamakaka

roni44 said:


> I've been using DI-20 with 2013 MacBook Pro, Audirvana, Itune, Apple Music, and Tidal, even ran Dirac live processor, DI-20 never gave me issues. Only glitch I can think of is to turn off and on few times to get sound after DI-20 was disconnected or powered off.



Thanks Roni, now the hardest part is to choose between DI-20/HE, Gustard U18 🤔


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## Jandu

hakunamakaka said:


> ... the hardest part is to choose between DI-20/HE, Gustard U18 🤔



For me, that's the easy part. If you ask most users here, I think you'll get the same answer. The harder part is how to find time to go over the music selection again.


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## hakunamakaka

Jandu said:


> For me, that's the easy part. If you ask most users here, I think you'll get the same answer. The harder part is how to find time to go over the music selection again.



I guess that would be not to bother and go with DI-20HE. If there is really an improvement that should be the right route, but I doubt that there will be owners of DI-20 and HE version for comparison :I I'm not even confident of how much of the goodness it can bring over IRIS DDC, but that one is out of the question cuz of compatibility issues with mac OS


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## Jackula (Nov 24, 2021)

hakunamakaka said:


> I guess that would be not to bother and go with DI-20HE. If there is really an improvement that should be the right route, but I doubt that there will be owners of DI-20 and HE version for comparison :I I'm not even confident of how much of the goodness it can bring over IRIS DDC, but that one is out of the question cuz of compatibility issues with mac OS


Feel like I should chime in here.
While I haven't compared it against the iris. The DI-20HE brought a far larger improvement to my R7HE than the Gaia brought to the T Plus. I've always wondered if the T Plus would have sounded better with the DI-20HE and my guess would be yes. As I understand it the Gaia is a step up from the Iris.

Along with the ability to add a 10Mhz, which became my main reason to keep my R7HE.


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## Jackula

I think there are people on this forum who used both the HE and non-HE. I just don't know who they are.


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## hakunamakaka

Jackula said:


> Feel like I should chime in here.
> While I haven't compared it against the iris. The DI-20HE brought a far larger improvement to my R7HE than the Gaia brought to the T Plus. I've always wondered if the T Plus would have sounded better with the DI-20HE and my guess would be yes. As I understand it the Gaia is a step up from the Iris.
> 
> Along with the ability to add a 10Mhz, which became my main reason to keep my R7HE.



That's sounds like a biggy, but might be some weird synergy between audio GD products. I know for sure that price not always relates to performance, though by logic it is a better product.

My dac is chord qutest, so I'm wondering if HE20 may be an overkill. Not much info and comparisons are found between DDC's unfortunately


----------



## roni44

hakunamakaka said:


> Thanks Roni, now the hardest part is to choose between DI-20/HE, Gustard U18 🤔


I dabbled many DDCs including Singxer, Gustard (most buggy), M2Tech, and few others, DI-20 works the best in my system and don't think I will replace it anytime soon. I have nothing against Gustard, but due to previous buggy experience with U16, I would just wait for more real world reviews.


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## sajunky (Nov 25, 2021)

hakunamakaka said:


> My dac is chord qutest, so I'm wondering if HE20 may be an overkill. Not much info and comparisons are found between DDC's unfortunately


I think HE is overkill for Qutest, you can also play with different power supplies, including a battery power that remove a DAC from the ground loop path. If Qutest is your end game, then I would agree that a cheaper DI-20 is better option. However while you are asking in Audio GD thread, you will be tempted to try a company DAC products as well, HE is recommended with any Audio GD DAC, even the entry level R-1 selling at a half price of Qutest.


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## hakunamakaka

sajunky said:


> I think HE is overkill for Qutest, you can also play with different power supplies, including a battery power that remove a DAC from the ground loop path. If Qutest is your end game, then I would agree that a cheaper DI-20 is better option. However while you are asking in Audio GD thread, you will be tempted to try a company DAC products as well, HE is recommended with any Audio GD DAC, even the entry level R-1 selling at a half price of Qutest.



Thanks I'll check on power supplies, not sure what may be the cause, but with DDC sound was much better. Qutest is advised to be used with optical though, but I'm stuck with USB now.  For now if I could bring back the sound as it was with IRIS via optical I would be happy. In future I have some interest in R2R dac's, just not yet financially ready


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## RONJA MESCO

hakunamakaka said:


> That's sounds like a biggy, but might be some weird synergy between audio GD products. I know for sure that price not always relates to performance, though by logic it is a better product.
> 
> My dac is chord qutest, so I'm wondering if HE20 may be an overkill. Not much info and comparisons are found between DDC's unfortunately


I have the DI20 and a Audio-Gd stack to begin with, and man, the combo is so vibrant, holgraphic, clear and resolute in many ways. It took a bit to dial everything in and take some stuff out my chain, but it shines no joke. It is every inch worth the investment for not a whole lotta casheesh.


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## Chopin75

Hi, I am trying yo update my DI20 to allowDSD via linix. The firmware update is now very complicated. I am supposed to “erase device” by pressing this button for 2 sec next to the update port? But it doesn’t work. Still cannot update now as I cannot erase the device. Anything I need to do?


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## Jandu

I am assuming you are updating the USB firmware. If you are using a Win10 PC, try a Win11 or Win7.


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## Il Cuffiotto

Chopin75 said:


> Hi, I am trying yo update my DI20 to allowDSD via linix. The firmware update is now very complicated. I am supposed to “erase device” by pressing this button for 2 sec next to the update port? But it doesn’t work. Still cannot update now as I cannot erase the device. Anything I need to do?


First of all, if your DI-20 was bought recently, be sure that erasing button cable is inserted internally. Kingwa, to prevent unwanted erase, is selling now his products with cable just internally disconnected.
Then, with your gear ON and disconnected from any cable, press the button and keep it pressed for some second.
Turn off DI-20 
Connect usb cable and turn on
Perform amanero flashing
Voilà


----------



## Chopin75

Il Cuffiotto said:


> First of all, if your DI-20 was bought recently, be sure that erasing button cable is inserted internally. Kingwa, to prevent unwanted erase, is selling now his products with cable just internally disconnected.
> Then, with your gear ON and disconnected from any cable, press the button and keep it pressed for some second.
> Turn off DI-20
> Connect usb cable and turn on
> ...


Do i keep pressing the button and turn it off? I opened the device and the button is wired/connected. The usb cable u mean the usb blaster connected to the port? Is the button supposed to light up red?


----------



## Chopin75

I am also using Win 10. So win 11 is better?


----------



## Jandu

Chopin75 said:


> I am also using Win 10. So win 11 is better?


I couldn't update using Win10, after switching to a Win7, just worked. Exact same steps.


----------



## Chopin75

Jandu said:


> I couldn't update using Win10, after switching to a Win7, just worked. Exact same steps.


ok ao win 11 or Win 7 ??


----------



## newabc

You can use VMWare Workstation Player(VMPlayer) or VirtualBox to install WIn7 in the virtual machine(VM), to use Win 7 guest VM on Win10.


----------



## Chopin75

newabc said:


> You can use VMWare Workstation Player(VMPlayer) or VirtualBox to install WIn7 in the virtual machine(VM), to use Win 7 guest VM on Win10.


Well I am using mac, already running Win 10 on bootcamp so I need to upgrade to win 11 I guess


----------



## newabc

Chopin75 said:


> Well I am using mac, already running Win 10 on bootcamp so I need to upgrade to win 11 I guess


You can try VirtualBox for Mac if your Mac is using Intel CPU.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

Chopin75 said:


> Do i keep pressing the button and turn it off? I opened the device and the button is wired/connected. The usb cable u mean the usb blaster connected to the port? Is the button supposed to light up red?


You have quite a bit of confusion, lol...
Keep calm. So:
With unit ON press the button for a couple of sec. Then turn off.
I told usb cable, not Altera blaster. Two different path for different updates. Usb, direct from your DI-20 to the PC. The button doesn't have any light. It works simply as a short circuit between two points on amanero board.
If you don't feel comfortable with the procedure, better not to start without some help. You may risk to have your gear not working...


----------



## Chopin75

Il Cuffiotto said:


> You have quite a bit of confusion, lol...
> Keep calm. So:
> With unit ON press the button for a couple of sec. Then turn off.
> I told usb cable, not Altera blaster. Two different path for different updates. Usb, direct from your DI-20 to the PC. The button doesn't have any light. It works simply as a short circuit between two points on amanero board.
> If you don't feel comfortable with the procedure, better not to start without some help. You may risk to have your gear not working...


Opps so I have been
Doing this wrong all along. I will try usin the USB cable to connect ans see how that goes.


----------



## Jandu

Chopin75 said:


> ok ao win 11 or Win 7 ?


----------



## Chopin75

ok so it looks like I manage to load the new FW for the USB now with the USB cable, was using the blaster all along, idiot. Now I have to update the FW for R7 to play DSD properly but seems Kingwa does not have the FW for the older R7. Not sure. Awaiting his reply.


----------



## RONJA MESCO

DecentLevi said:


> Hey guys just wanted to report on the difference power cables can make with the DI-20. I had the *Aurora 7 cable from Wireworld *laying around from it's use with former amps, which BTW made a significant difference especially along with a top-class power conditioner, but even without it was still able to yield a better sound than a generic power cable into a standard power outlet. Better in this case was more organic, rich, smooth and detailed.
> ​So just yesterday I thought I'd try it into the DI-20. Thinking it may not do anything because my DI-20 must have already reached it's peak potential, I thought - what the heck. Boy was I WRONG! The sound of the DI-20 now can only be described with words such as spectacular and engulfing... eclipsing just about anything you can imagine! It went from sounding fantastic with great realism, authority and detail to sounding totally lucid with engulfing realism,  deeper into the scene and  smoother details. I had a few songs with fatiguing treble that I dealt with because I thought that was just the way it was recorded - but now the treble manages to be even more detailed but at the same time less tiresome. I'm now getting better bass, more holographic sound and everything is more organic / true to life, along with the smoother treble lets me turn up the volume more with less fatigue. Just plain luscious!
> 
> Interestingly I had already written off the merits of aftermarket power cables with the DI-20, being that I already had a failed experiment a while back. I took a standard power cable like the thicker black one shown in the middle of the photo below and tried a few ferrite clamps (ferrite beads / chokes) of different ratings on it, but IMO it only had negative impact on the sound; edgier or more dull accordingly; since then I was happy with just the standard medium-thick cord - that is, until I tried the Aurora 7 cable. Also note that yes I did a few A/B comparisons with these cables and the difference was repeatable not subtle.
> ...


Facts. Once I hooked a Powervar power conditioner to the line with the Di20, it's an all around eargasm now in my set up... It's unreal.


----------



## Jandu

RONJA MESCO said:


> Facts. Once I hooked a Powervar power conditioner to the line with the Di20, it's an all around eargasm now in my set up... It's unreal.


Part of the reasons why DI20HE is more popular than the non HE version.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jandu said:


> Part of the reasons why DI20HE is more popular than the non HE version.


I'm tempted to upgrade my base DI-20 to HE but as far as I know the power here is pretty good.

For me it comes down to heat. Does anybody have info on DI-20HE case temps in operation?


----------



## RONJA MESCO

Jandu said:


> Part of the reasons why DI20HE is more popular than the non HE version.


yeah, I feel ya on that. I found a good deal on the non-HE and just had to bite at a low pricepoint to see if the buzz was real...plus, at close to $1k, I got more gear I need to get before I step to the HE


----------



## Jandu

A lot more DI20 on the pre owned market as compared to the DI20HE, that's for sure. 
I would rate the DI20HE is one of my best buys in my setup. However, I do have an AGD DAC for IIS connection


----------



## interweb-tech (Dec 8, 2021)

Jandu said:


> I would rate the DI20HE is one of my best buys in my setup.


As paired with my AGD R-27, I can truthfully say I have reached end-game status with the DI-20HE. I would never have believed it was possible lol.


----------



## DecentLevi

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm tempted to upgrade my base DI-20 to HE but as far as I know the power here is pretty good.
> 
> For me it comes down to heat. Does anybody have info on DI-20HE case temps in operation?


It's really not about thinking your power is probably pretty clean so you must be getting great sound. My impression is that no matter how clean your energy is, there will be some 'loss' of performance with the DI-20 normal if your using anything short of a top-rated 'boutique' shielded power cable. That loss may be in the form of RF interference or just decay of the clean power source. Even though both were connected to my Furman IT Ref-15i power conditioner, I heard a far cleaner sound with blacker background, smoother treble, larger soundstage etc. with my boutique shielded cable than with multiple generic black power cables connected to it.


----------



## roni44

Help please, I have both MacBook Pro and Nvidia Shield tv pro and DI-20 only has single USB, how would I connect both USB to DI-20? by hub? splitter(if it exist)?


----------



## Jandu (Dec 15, 2021)

roni44 said:


> Help please, I have both MacBook Pro and Nvidia Shield tv pro and DI-20 only has single USB, how would I connect both USB to DI-20? by hub? splitter(if it exist)?


For best sound quality, I suggest you to use just one usb at a time without any splitter in the chain to your DAC.There are devices which take usb input and has coaxial output, such as Topping D10, but direct connection will have better sound quality.


----------



## Pappas3278 (Dec 14, 2021)

I bought my DI-20 when it was first released and haven't touched the Amanero firmware.

I'm reading about updating that quite a bit recently.

Is there any reason to be doing that?


----------



## DecentLevi

It may have been my post, but updating the Amanero (Windows drivers) didn't make any difference for my occasional blaring loud distortion problem, and performance was the same. Or if were you talking about updating the DI-20 onboard firmware, that can really change the sound.


----------



## Pappas3278

DecentLevi said:


> It may have been my post, but updating the Amanero (Windows drivers) didn't make any difference for my occasional blaring loud distortion problem, and performance was the same. Or if were you talking about updating the DI-20 onboard firmware, that can really change the sound.


Yeah, talking about Amanero specifically.  Good to know that there is no difference. Didn't think there would be.

And as you mentioned, Firmware DEFINITELY changes the sound.


----------



## RONJA MESCO (Dec 15, 2021)

roni44 said:


> Help please, I have both MacBook Pro and Nvidia Shield tv pro and DI-20 only has single USB, how would I connect both USB to DI-20? by hub? splitter(if it exist)?


use this converter and use coax for your other usb line 
https://www.amazon.com/Douk-Audio-C...o+coaxial+cable+adapter&qid=1639608089&sr=8-3​


----------



## Chopin75

roni44 said:


> Help please, I have both MacBook Pro and Nvidia Shield tv pro and DI-20 only has single USB, how would I connect both USB to DI-20? by hub? splitter(if it exist)?


U can use a USB hub but the usually degrades the sound a bit due to more complex wiring. There are no audio grade USB hub that is of reasonable cost.


----------



## sajunky

USB protocol do not allow multiple hosts, just a single host talking to multiple targets, therefore hub won't help. There are mechanical switches for conecting multiple sources to a single monitor, keyboard and mouse, called KVM switches. Such devices may also have switcheable USB hosts. You can search for KVM, assuming a price is acceptable, it would be a good solution.


----------



## roni44

Thanks all for the input, at this point I'm leaning toward to USB to Coaxial converter since switch/hub can potentially degrade both sources. But I am toying the idea and experiment converter and hub/switch see if I can hear the difference.


----------



## RONJA MESCO (Dec 21, 2021)

Anyone having this issue where sometimes youll have song play thru the DI-20 (on coax) and then youll here a quick pop (like a power spike or something) where the music goes into a higher fidelity that whats being played and then back to normal again? I've had that happen several times, and wonder if there is any way to get it to that higher resolution? Im at 48k currently.


----------



## DeafSound

Hi All,

Interested in this product but concern about some of the issues I have read just in the last couple of pages, such as pops, crackling noises, firmware updates.  Just curious if these problems were solved.

Thanks!


----------



## Jandu

DeafSound said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Interested in this product but concern about some of the issues I have read just in the last couple of pages, such as pops, crackling noises, firmware updates.  Just curious if these problems were solved.
> 
> Thanks!


Firmware updates are not issues. It is optional and allows a different sound signature which serves only as an upgrade option. I have used DI20HE since early days and I don't notice any of these issues except firmware updates required Win7 instead of Win10.


----------



## PeterCraig

I first had DI20, then DI20HE for about 8 months now. No issues with either one using Windows.


----------



## Oepsie

Same here: DI20 (original 3.32 firmware!) with sotm sms-200 and roon. Rock stable ☺️


----------



## RONJA MESCO (Dec 28, 2021)

DeafSound said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Interested in this product but concern about some of the issues I have read just in the last couple of pages, such as pops, crackling noises, firmware updates.  Just curious if these problems were solved.
> 
> Thanks!


for me...I didnt update a thing...and it sounds ethereal. About the pops and crackling noises, for me, happens so often when the computer im using and the music app hasn't synced up perfectly with the DI-20. Usually when I have the app up before I turn the DI-20 on, the pops and crackling happen (this often happens with some of my portable rigs, between my dap and dac/amp too).

There are three things you can do to solve this: First, start the app *after* you get the DI-20 up and running. If you already have your music app up..stop the music and then flip the selector between usb and coax a few times or turn the unit off--then back on--and then start your music. These solutions should work.


----------



## Baci

Does anyone know if this thing has a hard reset option? I don't have a Windows machine that I have Admin rights to so reflashing anything is out of the question for now. No matter what order I start things up in, or how many times I switch inputs, or cycle the power, or anything else, the display flashes random numbers and I just get a high pitched squeal from the DAC. I'm feeding a pure signal from my Pi2AES streamer into the coax inputs. Is there an option to hold buttons down during startup or something to reset the software? Any other ideas?


----------



## RONJA MESCO (Dec 28, 2021)

Baci said:


> Does anyone know if this thing has a hard reset option? I don't have a Windows machine that I have Admin rights to so reflashing anything is out of the question for now. No matter what order I start things up in, or how many times I switch inputs, or cycle the power, or anything else, the display flashes random numbers and I just get a high pitched squeal from the DAC. I'm feeding a pure signal from my Pi2AES streamer into the coax inputs. Is there an option to hold buttons down during startup or something to reset the software? Any other ideas?


if you did everything I was mentioning the other day, then prolly you have your sample rates too high in the sound settings of your streamer (that is, if it doesn't adjust it automagically)...for coax, if your rates of your system is above what spdif can allow (48-96k), it may be that. I have two systems connected thru mines (usb and coax), and on my coax plug, it only outputs at 48k at the highest. Any higher, itll be dead silent or crackle in the feed.


----------



## Baci

Thanks for the reply - yes I did read the post and tried your suggestions none of which worked for me. Hence the question about whether there's some form of hard reset option.


----------



## RONJA MESCO

Baci said:


> Thanks for the reply - yes I did read the post and tried your suggestions none of which worked for me. Hence the question about whether there's some form of hard reset option.


good question...not sure if there is one. But do try to hit up Kingwa and see if he has any suggestions.


----------



## Jandu

Baci said:


> Does anyone know if this thing has a hard reset option? ......



I don't think there is any. Depending on your version, there may exist a red button for usb (Amanero) firmware erase. If you accidentally erase the Amanero firmware, you may have to re-install it. To test you can try using coaxial and skip the usb connection.


----------



## RONJA MESCO

Jandu said:


> I don't think there is any. Depending on your version, there may exist a red button for usb (Amanero) firmware erase. If you accidentally erase the Amanero firmware, you may have to re-install it. To test you can try using coaxial and skip the usb connection.


iirc he was already using coax....


----------



## Jandu

RONJA MESCO said:


> iirc he was already using coax....


Kingwa is your best bet, if your DAC works with your source using coaxial and inserting DI20 in between doesn't.


----------



## Thinman

I am having big problems in trying to change the Amanero firmware on the DI20HE. Following the instructions on Amaneros home page only results in the update tool not identifying the flash as erased: "Please erase the device". Using laptop with Win8. 

Any ideas?


----------



## Jandu

Thinman said:


> I am having big problems in trying to change the Amanero firmware on the DI20HE. Following the instructions on Amaneros home page only results in the update tool not identifying the flash as erased: "Please erase the device". Using laptop with Win8.
> 
> Any ideas?


Try using Win 7 or Win11 PC. I had same issue with Win10.


----------



## roberto2 (Jan 7, 2022)

Thinman said:


> I am having big problems in trying to change the Amanero firmware on the DI20HE. Following the instructions on Amaneros home page only results in the update tool not identifying the flash as erased: "Please erase the device". Using laptop with Win8.
> 
> Any ideas?


If your DI20HE is a new one the wire could not be connected inside the unit as for what is on AGD site.
I had the same issue and had to open the unit to connect the wire inside!
If you are not sure please contact Kingwa. There was a web page on AGD site where he wrote about that but I cannot find anymore. He said the newest units had the wire disconnected to avoid some users to erase the Amanero touching the button. 
I have always used W10 on a Parallel Mac so I think it is not a problem of your OS.


----------



## roberto2 (Jan 7, 2022)




----------



## Thinman

Wow, that could possibly explain the issue. Will check after work. Thanks roberto2!


----------



## roberto2 (Jan 7, 2022)

Found the page! As usual in Audio-gd not where you would expect it! 🤣
*Please note:
         Some few customer feedback they accidentally touch the Amanero update button cause the firmware delete, Since 23rd. July 2021 , the product ship without connect the update button wire, if customer want to active the update button feature, connect by self.*

http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmware/AmaneroforLinuxEN.htm


----------



## roberto2

Thinman said:


> Wow, that could possibly explain the issue. Will check after work. Thanks roberto2!


Just take care when you open the unit not to break the stick to avoid to loose the warranty.


----------



## higginsd

Hi All!

I'll receive my DI20-HE next days. I will use it as reclocker with external 10MHz-Masterclock, only RCA SPDif in and SPDif out again. I have no need for USB stuff.

Future usage will be experimenting with I2S output, but first I need an hardware upgrade for I2S to my DAC (Canever ZeroUno).

Regarding your experiences:

- Which output is the best: RCA, AES/EBU or BNC? 
- My DAC accepts SPDif BNC 75ohms. Can I use the BNC out or must my DAC support this "ACSS" SPDif?
- Which firmware version is best for reclocking with external 10MHz-Masterclock and SPDif output?

Thanks for hints!

BR
Dirk


----------



## tumpux

A E S is better than others.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jan 11, 2022)

higginsd said:


> Hi All!
> 
> I'll receive my DI20-HE next days. I will use it as reclocker with external 10MHz-Masterclock, only RCA SPDif in and SPDif out again. I have no need for USB stuff.
> 
> ...


I don't have the HE but I guess IIS is the best, followed by ACSS, followed by AES. But that can vary a lot depending on what DAC you run it into.

I often run mine on AES into a Mutec MC-3+ USB to get the benefit of reclocking. But, the Mutec doesn't do real DSD so if I'm listening to SACD rips I find IIS is better.

In general for me ACSS is a good middle ground into my R8 MK2, it's almost as good as AES into the reclocker.

I don't know the answer about how compatible your DAC has to be to benefit from ACSS but I think it will not work with most DACs, because coax is normally good to 24/192 and ACSS is good to 384 KHz. I don't think it will hurt to try it. But it will hurt to try IIS into your DAC if the pinout does not match the DI-20.


----------



## myshark

higginsd said:


> Hi All!
> 
> I'll receive my DI20-HE next days. I will use it as reclocker with external 10MHz-Masterclock, only RCA SPDif in and SPDif out again. I have no need for USB stuff.
> 
> ...


If dac input is transformer coupled, it might not work, else ok. My w4s dac2v2 input do not work due to this. The r8he n su8 ok.
Should try 3.993, 4.075 n 4.076. i am using 4.076 with new amareno usb linux fw.

Enjoy.


----------



## LWPS (Jan 11, 2022)

higginsd said:


> Hi All!
> 
> I'll receive my DI20-HE next days. I will use it as reclocker with external 10MHz-Masterclock, only RCA SPDif in and SPDif out again. I have no need for USB stuff.
> 
> ...


Hi, both BNC out ACSS and coaxial RCA out work fine with my coaxial RCA in DAC, with the same cable.

I've been using ACSS for months and am going to change to AES/EBU. Don't think it's a A/B comparison as the change involves factors of output/input designs of the DDC and DAC, also the interconnecting cable.


----------



## maellen

Pappas3278 said:


> I gave a quick listen when it was first outta the box and I could tell right away that it elevated the R1 to another level that I hadn't heard previously.
> It's been 10 days now since I last listened and, at present time, it has 240 hours of continued burn-in.  I listened today and I'm just blown away at what I'm hearing.
> Like others have said; the music comes out of a complete black background.  The image is more 3-D holographic than I have ever heard from my ever-evolving system.
> It's an absolute winner.  Currently using the i2s connection between the DI-20 and R1.


May I know your the hdmi cable brand/model that you use for the i2s connection and what is the length?


----------



## higginsd

Thanks for your replies, I'll check BNC with ACSS. 

For I2S my ZeroUno needs to be send back to Mario Canever together with the DI20-HE because he has to implement the I2S board and a matching connection layout. This is my plan for the next weeks.

@gimmeheadroom  Why are you using a Mutec MC3+ after the DI20-HE? I think the DI20-HE is already reclocking the signal?

My DI20-HE is pre-installed with 4.076, so this should be fine. It's not so easy for me to update the firmware because I'm in a pure MacOS environment and firmware updating with Parallels/Windows might be a problem.

Regards
Dirk


----------



## PeterCraig

higginsd said:


> For I2S my ZeroUno needs to be send back to Mario Canever together with the DI20-HE because he has to implement the I2S board and a matching connection layout. This is my plan for the next weeks.



Dedicated.....nice. 

You won't regret but it sounds like an expensive endeavor.


----------



## higginsd

The most expensive part was the ZeroUno DAC itself. It's in the price region above 5500$...

The I2S update will cost round about 250$.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

higginsd said:


> @gimmeheadroom  Why are you using a Mutec MC3+ after the DI20-HE? I think the DI20-HE is already reclocking the signal?


Hi, the DI-20 doesn't reclock.

Actually, I bought the Mutec first and didn't know in the future I would buy a DI-20. The two boxes have different feature sets and different connectivity. I would not like to have to choose between one or the other since neither box does everything the other box does.


----------



## higginsd

What? MagnaHifi website explicit says "S/PDIF input with reclocker".

Why should the DI20-HE use an external 10MHz-Masterclock if it is not reclocking the signal?


----------



## higginsd

Email from Kingwa to my request upon reclocking:

"Dear Dirk,
The DI20HE has get the spdif signal , conversion to parallel 48bit transmit and reclock the data , then conversion to spdif output.
Kingwa"

So the DI20-HE IS reclocking the signal.


----------



## higginsd

Got my DI20HE now. The SPDif output is stuttering the whole time. With internal clock or external clock.

My DAC is losing SPDif synchronization every few seconds.

I don't have any clue what's going wrong.


----------



## higginsd

Oh, I see. I'm upsampling to 176.4 or 192kHz PCM before entering the DI20HE. This is not stable!

If I use lower rates (44.1, 48, 88.2 or 96kHz) it is working.

Nobody else facing this problem with higher sampling rates at SPDif input?


----------



## higginsd (Jan 12, 2022)

Firmware v3.933 almost solved the problem. But still there are very short dropouts/breaks with 176.4/192 every 60-120 seconds.

88.2/96 is much better, but I had one dropout with 88.2 too.

Any better firmware?

Edit: switching to serial mode was the key! Obviously there is a problem with high sampling rates in parallel mode.

But: switching to serial mode makes my left and right channel swap! It's not a problem, because I can correct this by switching the cinch cables from DAC to amplifier. Maybe a mathematical problem in using parallel or serial. Strange.


----------



## newabc

higginsd said:


> Oh, I see. I'm upsampling to 176.4 or 192kHz PCM before entering the DI20HE. This is not stable!
> 
> If I use lower rates (44.1, 48, 88.2 or 96kHz) it is working.
> 
> Nobody else facing this problem with higher sampling rates at SPDif input?


Personally as my knowledge, I will send the unmodified stream to the reclocker (here is DI-20/DI-20HE), then to the DAC to make it handle the stream with the DAC's own methods. I don't know too much on other brands' DACs, Audio-gd's R2R series usually has NOS(non oversampling) and couples of OS(over-sampling) rates on the 44.1Khz/48Khz 16bit streams.


----------



## higginsd

Good morning Reclockers!

After a long testing session yesterday evening with many other problems I'm back to firmware v4.076. Firmware v3.933 seems to be too buggy for my purposes. It's switching the stereo channels by changing from parallel to serial, it produces a significant ground noise after samplerate switch (from 176.4 to 192kHz or vice versa), sometimes it cannot sync the SPDif signal after samplerate switch.

With v3.933 it was possible to play upsampled 176.4/192kHz SPDif with serial mode, but the other errors - especially the ground noise - are annoying. 

After installing FW v4.076 again I'm able to play PCM 88.2/96kHz flawless, without ground noise and glitches. Only parallel mode is stable, serial produces errors.

Normally I prefer full upsampled PCM because there are small differences in my ears, but the overall soundquality of the DI20-HE is so extreme good - compared to my former Mutec MC3+ USB reclocker - that I can accept to upsample fixed to 88.2/96kHz with the DI20-HE.

Much wider stage, much more details, much more air - and it's even in burn-in phase! Great device with some - acceptable - instabilities in firmware. Time will show wether Kingwa will sort out these instabilities.



newabc said:


> Personally as my knowledge, I will send the unmodified stream to the reclocker (here is DI-20/DI-20HE), then to the DAC to make it handle the stream with the DAC's own methods. I don't know too much on other brands' DACs, Audio-gd's R2R series usually has NOS(non oversampling) and couples of OS(over-sampling) rates on the 44.1Khz/48Khz 16bit streams.



The upsampling is done by my Lumin U1 mini streamer and this device is beyond any doubts in correct upsampling. Also upsampling by Lumin runs with the Mutec MC3+ USB - full upsampling without problems. So the problem isn't the upsampling itself or the changes to the PCM signal before enterig the DI20-HE, but the DI20-HE. Maybe CPU power is too small for that data rate, maybe there are small bugs in firmware.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jan 13, 2022)

higginsd said:


> What? MagnaHifi website explicit says "S/PDIF input with reclocker".
> 
> Why should the DI20-HE use an external 10MHz-Masterclock if it is not reclocking the signal?


@sajunky
and
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/post-16002856


----------



## sajunky (Jan 14, 2022)

I can't follow at the moment @higginsd massive comments on S/PDIF, I will try to answer a question regarding 10MHz clock.

S/PDIF has an embedded clock, it has to be recovered from the signal, therefore it usually involve PLL. In this solution recovered clock follows the source clock, but rapid changes are filtered out by the PLL. Quality of recovered clock depends on the source clock, therefore quality of cables are important, the biggest problem is uncertainty of the transition time, using incorrect impedance of cables/sockets is the most common cause. RCA plugs/sockets are specifically not suitable for the high speed digital transmission, I don't know why a standard was made in the first place. When possible use BNC interconnects. Even the AES/EBU is better, with AGD equipment you can use digital ACSS connection.

A definitive answer for interconnet problems is an external clock input. It allows a simple clock synchronisation, as both a source and receiver are referenced to the same frequency. With an external clock there is still reclocking inside S/PDIF receiver chip, but this clock does not need to be used, having a data recovered and a reference clock. I think this makes my answer clear.

10MHz clock is a current industry standard. There are devices on the market with low jitter, a quality far exceeding local crystal oscilators in a DAC. It is the other benefit of having external clock connector,  you can upgrade later to a better clock.


----------



## higginsd

@sajunky  agree to your post and this is technically better said than I did. But the result is the same: the SPDif receiver chip inside the DI20 is reclocking the signal by usage of the external clock connected to - if the signal needs to be reclocked.

Same as Mutec MC3+ does.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 14, 2022)

A word of 'reclocking' is frequently used generic way, without in-dept analysis. If I have data stream recovered at my hand (it is no matter how is recovered) and I know that it comes in specific time intervals equal to the external reference clock, I only need to allign a phase to get data latched with 100% reliability. It is not reclocking, but a simple case of a clock synchronisation.

EDIT: I wrote about 100% reliability, but forgotten to say that external clock makes S/PDIF connection (or I2S, BTW) completely jitter-free, the same as with USB asynchronous transfers.

I don't know how Mutec does, but I think it does a full reclocking with help of ASRC.


----------



## higginsd

Anyway - the DI20-HE sounds brilliant! Much better than my Mutec MC3+


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jan 15, 2022)

sajunky said:


> A word of 'reclocking' is frequently used generic way, without in-dept analysis. If I have data stream recovered at my hand (it is no matter how is recovered) and I know that it comes in specific time intervals equal to the external reference clock, I only need to allign a phase to get data latched with 100% reliability. It is not reclocking, but a simple case of a clock synchronisation.


This is the case of the DI-20, correct?


sajunky said:


> EDIT: I wrote about 100% reliability, but forgotten to say that external clock makes S/PDIF connection (or I2S, BTW) completely jitter-free, the same as with USB asynchronous transfers.
> 
> I don't know how Mutec does, but I think it does a full reclocking with help of ASRC.


Yes, to my understanding, the Mutec strips the clock signal and substitutes one from its internal clock or external clock if provided.

I don't have the HE, but my Mutec makes an improvement in clarity and air over the DI-20 alone. I do like the DI-20, but as I said it and the Mutec MC-3+ USB have different connectivity and different feature sets and both are useful in my system.


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> I don't have the HE, but my Mutec makes an improvement in clarity and air over the DI-20 alone. I do like the DI-20, but as I said it and the Mutec MC-3+ USB have different connectivity and different feature sets and both are useful in my system.


ASRC is trading sound quality for functionality, yes I agree. If your setup do not require such functionality, DI-20 is better choice.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> ASRC is trading sound quality for functionality, yes I agree. If your setup do not require such functionality, DI-20 is better choice.


Maybe I misunderstood about ASRC- did you mean sample rate conversion?

The site says "Unique, bit-transparent Re-Clocking without conventional sample rate conversion for purest sound quality"

The MC-3+ does not change the sample rate (at least not by default), I understand it strips the clock signal from the input and substitutes a signal from its internal clock or external if selected and present. It does offer multiple clock outputs including multipliers and also standalone clock outputs. It has better connectivity than the DI-20 but does not do DSD or anything higher than 24/192.  Back panel shot here https://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/images/MC-3_plus_USB_alu_Back_RGB.jpg

https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php


----------



## sajunky (Jan 16, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> The MC-3+ does not change the sample rate (at least not by default), I understand it strips the clock signal from the input and substitutes a signal from its internal clock or external if selected and present.


Yes, I might be wrong on ASRC, I was wondering how they made it when reading features. Substitution require large FIFO, it means large delays, it will affect synchronisation with video. Did you notice that?


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jan 16, 2022)

sajunky said:


> Yes, I might be wrong on ASRC, I was wondering how they made it when reading features. Substitution require large FIFO, it means large delays, it will affect synchronisation with video. Did you notice that?


I don't play video so I have not noticed. Mine is used strictly for playback and digital recording into a few TASCAM rigs I have.

The reason I got the Mutec MC-3+ USB was not for reclocking but rather because I have some digital gear that doesn't accept USB input. To be honest, I had thought that reclocking was snake oil and I didn't expect the sound to improve and I thought it might actually degrade. It turned out that the sound improved, unexpectedly and I guess after reading so many posts in the R7 thread that good clocks definitely bring improvement when the rest of the gear is up to par what I'm hearing makes sense.

The kind of improvements I get with the MC-3+ USB are as are described in the R7 thread. It's subtle, but there is definitely a cleaner musical presentation...although my DACs by themselves all sound good, it just gets better, clearer, and with some improvement in air around the instruments. Again, unexpected, and for me a bonus since I didn't buy it for any sonic qualities but rather for format conversion and connectivity. And certainly, the R8 MK2 isn't lacking without it. It's just that the MC-3+ USB brings improvement and the system goes up a notch in enjoyment.

The problem with the Mutec for me is that it doesn't do DSD and I have hundreds of SACD rips. It does do DSD->PCM for DSD64 and DSD128 but I didn't want that. So probably after a year of having the Mutec, when I bought my R8 MK2 I bought the DI-20 along with it. I remember you said not to expect much improvement with the DI-20 into the R8 MK2 over USB and I think you were right.

Certainly, the DI-20 is a great interface especially for anybody who has an Audio-gd DAC. It sounds great over IIS and ACSS, maybe a small improvement over USB. But for some reason, the DI-20 does not work with one of my TASCAM digital recorders. The recorder cannot lock to the DI-20 AES. But when I run the DI-20 into my Mutec MC-3+ USB, the reclocking helps and the TASCAM gets a lock. I have another Mutec box MC-1.1+ which I loop through the MC-3+ USB, so I can distribute audio to all my gear over AES and coax, and listen with or without the reclocking of the Mutec MC-3+ USB.

What I like about the DI-20 is that it has IIS and ACSS and supports DSD and higher sample rate PCM than the Mutec. I don't know why Mutec didn't go 768K PCM and at least DSD128 but they didn't. So for me, these boxes both have a good reason, they both sound good and offer complimentary features.


----------



## sajunky

Many thanks. The most comprehensive comparison I have seen so far.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> Many thanks. The most comprehensive comparison I have seen so far.


Thank you for your advice and answers all along!

I made a minor change to my post just now, checking the cabling I see I looped the Mutec boxes together, the DI-20 is not directly connected to the MC-1.1+


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> The recorder cannot lock to the DI-20 AES. But when I run the DI-20 into my Mutec MC-3+ USB, the reclocking helps and the TASCAM gets a lock. I have another Mutec box MC-1.1+ which I loop through the MC-3+ USB, so I can distribute audio to all my gear over AES and coax, and listen with or without the reclocking of the Mutec MC-3+ USB.
> 
> What I like about the DI-20 is that it has IIS and ACSS and supports DSD and higher sample rate PCM than the Mutec. I don't know why Mutec didn't go 768K PCM and at least DSD128 but they didn't. So for me, these boxes both have a good reason, they both sound good and offer complimentary features.


So how do you play DSD? As I understand that, by hooking up the DI-20 and the MC-3+ USB, this is no longer possible?

Talking about DSD: was anyone able to play DSD256 with the D-20(HE)? It seems DSD128 is the maximum I can play. Maybe another Amanero firmware would do the trick?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> So how do you play DSD? As I understand that, by hooking up the DI-20 and the MC-3+ USB, this is no longer possible?


Because the DI-20 is connected to my R8 MK2 via IIS and ACSS, and to the MC-3+ USB via AES.

So I can run the system either directly out of the DI-20, or out of the MC-3+, both via USB from the PC.



bodiebill2 said:


> Talking about DSD: was anyone able to play DSD256 with the D-20(HE)? It seems DSD128 is the maximum I can play. Maybe another Amanero firmware would do the trick?


Yes, there was a discussion recently about it here. If you can't find it, check the R7 thread here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...hip-resistor-ladder-dacs.853902/post-16761140 and previous posts.


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> Yes, there was a discussion recently about it here. If you can't find it, check the R7 thread here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...hip-resistor-ladder-dacs.853902/post-16761140 and previous posts.


Thanks!
However I cannot see any relevant answers in that thread which is mainly about audio-gd DACs.

This works fine :
DSD256 --> USB --> Holo Audio Spring 3

However this is *not* working:
DSD256 --> USB --> DI-20HE --> I2S --> Spring 3

So source and DAC are DSD256-capable but apparently not (currently) my DI-20HE, although advertised and sold as DSD512-capable.

Maybe I am being thick -- just trying to understand before I dive into any Amanero firmware update.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Thanks!
> However I cannot see any relevant answers in that thread which is mainly about audio-gd DACs.
> 
> This works fine :
> ...


I have the non-HE version and I was not able to get mine to play DSD higher than 128 using foobar or musicbee. But, HQPlayer ($$$) did play DSD 256. So even with the stock firmware, the DI-20 is clearly not the problem. I guess the issue is some combination of drivers and players.



bodiebill2 said:


> Maybe I am being thick -- just trying to understand before I dive into any Amanero firmware update.


Oh no, apparently somebody got it working with DI-20 using the CPLD_SWAPPED firmware, and the guide posted by Kingwa (Mr. Audio-gd himself) should also cover it.


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> I have the non-HE version and I was not able to get mine to play DSD higher than 128 using foobar or musicbee. But, HQPlayer ($$$) did play DSD 256. So even with the stock firmware, the DI-20 is clearly not the problem. I guess the issue is some combination of drivers and players.
> 
> 
> Oh no, apparently somebody got it working with DI-20 using the CPLD_SWAPPED firmware, and the guide posted by Kingwa (Mr. Audio-gd himself) should also cover it.



Still confused. I know how to upgrade Amanero fw (did it many times with a Lampizator DAC), and the 'SWAPPED' just means that left and right are swapped, so the numbers are more important. On the other hand, it is also said that the stock version should already do DSD512, so in that an Amanero upgrade would not be necessary?
And is that Kingwa guide one other than the foobar/DSD guide or Amanero upgrade instructions? If yes, could you please share a link?


----------



## roberto2

bodiebill2 said:


> Still confused. I know how to upgrade Amanero fw (did it many times with a Lampizator DAC), and the 'SWAPPED' just means that left and right are swapped, so the numbers are more important. On the other hand, it is also said that the stock version should already do DSD512, so in that an Amanero upgrade would not be necessary?
> And is that Kingwa guide one other than the foobar/DSD guide or Amanero upgrade instructions? If yes, could you please share a link?


When I received the DI20HE it couldn’t play dsd through the Roon dsp options so I asked Jos from Magna Hifi in the Netherlands and he suggested to install CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDDSD

https://www.amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm

Now I can play dsd512


----------



## roberto2

roberto2 said:


> When I received the DI20HE it couldn’t play dsd through the Roon dsp options so I asked Jos from Magna Hifi in the Netherlands and he suggested to install CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDDSD
> 
> https://www.amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm
> 
> Now I can play dsd512


SwissBear did a great tutorial 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/page-174


----------



## gimmeheadroom

The Amanero driver site is a total nightmare


----------



## bodiebill2

roberto2 said:


> When I received the DI20HE it couldn’t play dsd through the Roon dsp options so I asked Jos from Magna Hifi in the Netherlands and he suggested to install CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDDSD
> 
> https://www.amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm
> 
> Now I can play dsd512



Thanks, I will try that fw!


----------



## bodiebill2

bodiebill2 said:


> Thanks, I will try that fw!



Just reflashed the Amanero board with CPLD1081 DSD SWAPPED and 2006be11 and listening to DSD256 with the DI-20HE as I write this.
Thanks all!


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jan 17, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> Just reflashed the Amanero board with CPLD1081 DSD SWAPPED and 2006be11 and listening to DSD256 with the DI-20HE as I write this.
> Thanks all!


Can you confirm the channels are not swapped, despite the helpful driver name 

And, can anybody confirm that changing the DI-20 firmware is enough to play DSD256 and 512, or does the DAC also have to be reflashed?


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> Can you confirm the channels are not swapped, despite the helpful driver name


Confirmed. Apparently the channels had to be swapped as they were wrong in the first place 



gimmeheadroom said:


> And, can anybody confirm that changing the DI-20 firmware is enough to play DSD256 and 512, or does the DAC also have to be reflashed?


To be precise: if you use a Linux source, not the DI-2-'s own firmware but the DI-20's Amanero firmware has to be upgraded in order to get DSD256/512, provided the DAC allows for this resolution. The DAC does not need to be reflashed because the DI-20 has no usb output. Therefore reflashing Amanero _in the DAC_ has no effect as Amanero does usb-I2S conversion and the DAC's usb input is not used.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Confirmed. Apparently the channels had to be swapped as they were wrong in the first place


Thanks! This is great news. 


bodiebill2 said:


> To be precise: if you use a Linux source, not the DI-2-'s own firmware but the DI-20's Amanero firmware has to be upgraded in order to get DSD256/512, provided the DAC allows for this resolution.


Yeah thanks for the clue stick. Your clarification is important. I knew that but I keep forgetting it. And this issue is not specific to Linux, but to USB input to the DI-20.



bodiebill2 said:


> The DAC does not need to be reflashed because the DI-20 has no usb output.


Right, but I suppose if somebody used USB input to the DAC it would have to be reflashed at the DAC.


bodiebill2 said:


> Therefore reflashing Amanero _in the DAC_ has no effect as Amanero does usb-I2S conversion and the DAC's usb input is not used.


Again, very useful clarification. Many thanks for your post. Very high ratio of usefulness to the amount of words, sadly unlike most of my posts 

Now, where can we find sample files for DSD512? Anybody know?


----------



## bodiebill2 (Jan 17, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Yeah thanks for the clue stick. Your clarification is important. I knew that but I keep forgetting it. And this issue is not specific to Linux, but to USB input to the DI-20.


Not sure but I thought that the upgrade should not be needed when the source is a Windows PC.



gimmeheadroom said:


> Right, but I suppose if somebody used USB input to the DAC it would have to be reflashed at the DAC


Correct, subject to the above (Linux vs Windows).



gimmeheadroom said:


> Now, where can we find sample files for DSD512? Anybody know?


I never purchased one, but you can use audio conversion SW like xrecode3 to convert anything to f.i. DSD521. In spite of the fact that no data will be added, it pushes the DSD-specific distortion to higher frequencies which should stiil benefit SQ.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Not sure but I thought that the upgrade should not be needed when the source is a Windows PC.


I have a Windows box to drive my DI-20 and it did not play DSD256 from foobar or musicbee. It did from HQPlayer though. So for me it's worth trying to see if a better Amanero driver makes it possible to play DSD256 and above via foobar.


bodiebill2 said:


> Correct, subject to the above (Linux vs Windows).
> 
> 
> I never purchased one, but you can use audio conversion SW like xrecode3 to convert anything to f.i. DSD521. In spite of the fact that no data will be added, it pushes the DSD-specific distortion to higher frequencies which should stiil benefit SQ.


Ah ok, I didn't think there was much other than test files for DSD512 but I don't even have test files higher than DSD256.


----------



## higginsd

You can buy DSD512 files at nativedsdmusic: https://www.nativedsd.com/dsd-512/

They sell DSD1024 too, produced by Jussi's HQPlayer pro.

I have a problem with my DI-20HE: it plays fine and perfect for some hours. But then suddenly it is starting to produce small, single clicks disturbing the music stream. Power down and restart - and the clicks are gone.

But I think this isn't the fix forever and the clicks are starting again after some time.

Anyone else who had this problem and found a fix?


----------



## sajunky

higginsd said:


> I have a problem with my DI-20HE: it plays fine and perfect for some hours. But then suddenly it is starting to produce small, single clicks disturbing the music stream. Power down and restart - and the clicks are gone.


Q1. Is this happen when playing PCM or DSD or both and only a highest sampling rate or any?

Q2. Do you have to power down DI-20 or stopping playback an restarting helps too? Alternatively, maybe changing playing from DSD to PCM and then play the same file fixes a problem for a while?

Q3. Is the same happen on the ASIO interface, WASAPI push of WASAPI event?

Q4. Did you try a different or shorter USB cable?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

higginsd said:


> You can buy DSD512 files at nativedsdmusic: https://www.nativedsd.com/dsd-512/


Thanks, I know. But I was looking for sample files like they have at http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html


----------



## higginsd

sajunky said:


> Q1. Is this happen when playing PCM or DSD or both and only a highest sampling rate or any?


Hi sajunky!

Thanks!

I'm only using RCA SPDif input and output, PCM fix sampled to 88.2/96kHz.

DSD does not work because I'm using a Trinnov one step before DI-20HE and roomcorrection can only be done with PCM.


sajunky said:


> Q2. Do you have to power down DI-20 or stopping playback an restarting helps too? Alternatively, maybe changing playing from DSD to PCM and then play the same file fixes a problem for a while?



Only power down helps, just stop and restart has no effect.

DSD as told not possible.


sajunky said:


> Q3. Is the same happen on the ASIO interface, WASAPI push of WASAPI event?
> 
> Q4. Did you try a different or shorter USB cable?


I'm not using USB or ASIO, pure PCM via RCA.


----------



## sajunky

higginsd said:


> Hi sajunky!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


Argh... sorry, I was distracted by a recent discussion about DSD transfer rates.

This is a tough case. I am thinking about accumulating static electricity on the connection increasing over a time DC voltage on the DI-20 input. I don't know details of the implementation to advise, you need to mail Kingwa on that. If my assumption is correct, operating longer can damage the WM8805 chip on DI-20 (if it didn't happen already).

On your side, I would in first place check impedance matching of inputs and a cable, next try to replicate things by driving S/PDIF input from a different source. It is important to power all interconnected equipment from the same outlet. A multi-room configuration require professional installation. Can you use optical cable instead Coax? It would eliminate such problem.


----------



## higginsd

Thanks, I'll contact Kingwa!

I'm using a DH-Labs D-750 0.5m at the DI-20 output to my DAC. And I will change the actual Viablue Digi RCA at the input of the DI-20 to DH-Labs D-750 0.5m today - if UPS manages delivery today (since 2 days they tell me it's delivered today, but then it's delayed again)

All my audio equipment is connected to a Lab12 Gordian power conditioner/filter, so  different outlets cannot be the issue.

Optical cable? The DI-20 has no optical input or output, so how should I do?

But... during winter period and dry air I sometimes recognize static electricity load problems if touching the cases of my DAC or my amplifier. Maybe this is the reason?


----------



## higginsd

Ah, you mean electrostatical DC power or the DC power level at the AC outlets? My DC level in AC is always below 0.040V, which is extreme low, I think.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 18, 2022)

Sorry, forgotten about missing optical. Also, this is a short link, power and cable issues are less likely to happen, it gives a main suspect a faulty receiver chip. Check whether it happen with a different S/PDIF source to make sure it is a case. A bug in a firmware is also possible.


----------



## higginsd

Thanks, I'll check this evening at another SPDif source. I changed both RCA cables now against DH-Labs D-750, maybe this helps.

And I contacted Kingwa, but I'm sure he is in bed now.  😴


----------



## gimmeheadroom

higginsd said:


> And I contacted Kingwa, but I'm sure he is in bed now.  😴


Come on, there is no evidence Kingwa ever goes to bed 

The emails I get from him suggest he is working 24 hours a day. The guy is amazing!


----------



## higginsd (Jan 18, 2022)

🤣 - Kingwa - sleepless in Hong Kong.

EDIT: now after playing some hours with DH-Labs D-750 cable for input to DI-20 the clicks problem seems to be gone. No clicks so far.

But: it maybe a clipping problem! After starting "Bad Guy" from Billie Eilish the clicking appears 3-4 seconds after track start. Reproduceable. Sometimes an error correction inside the DI-20 firmware seems to work, the track is stopped after 2 seconds and started from beginning again, without clicks. Strange behaviour.

I reduced the maximum output volume of my Lumin U1 mini to 97%. Now "Bad Guy" starts without problems. But I'll keep an eye on these clicks.


----------



## Baci

sajunky said:


> Argh... sorry, I was distracted by a recent discussion about DSD transfer rates.
> 
> This is a tough case. I am thinking about accumulating static electricity on the connection increasing over a time DC voltage on the DI-20 input. I don't know details of the implementation to advise, you need to mail Kingwa on that. If my assumption is correct, operating longer can damage the WM8805 chip on DI-20 (if it didn't happen already).
> 
> On your side, I would in first place check impedance matching of inputs and a cable, next try to replicate things by driving S/PDIF input from a different source. It is important to power all interconnected equipment from the same outlet. A multi-room configuration require professional installation. Can you use optical cable instead Coax? It would eliminate such problem.


The issue of static electricity is interesting. An earlier post also referred to it being problematic if the DAC had transformer coupled inputs. I am not aware of other electrical devices being susceptible to damage via static electricity build up, or reliant on particular kinds of inputs. Or have I misunderstood?  

Is there a way the static issue can be addressed? An earth wire from the coax plug or something? 

Sorry if this is a dumb question - not an electronics kind of guy.


----------



## sajunky

higginsd said:


> But: it maybe a clipping problem! After starting "Bad Guy" from Billie Eilish the clicking appears 3-4 seconds after track start. Reproduceable. Sometimes an error correction inside the DI-20 firmware seems to work, *the track is stopped after 2 seconds and started from beginning again, without clicks. Strange behaviour.*


This is a clock synchronisation problem. My understanding is that S/PDIF chip has a problem locking to the source frequency (it can be on the border of PLL range), hence a click when synchronisation is temporary broken. Small errors cause that internal buffer is re-used (repeating 2 second of music), a part that leads me to this conclusion. Strange indeed, typically there are just occasional or repeated clicks. Firmware upgrade of DI-20 should fix it by adjusting PLL parameters, it will be on a cost of slightly increased jitter. For the best SQ Kingwa chose a narrow lockup range after testing with various source devices. Now I am 95% confident that another S/PDIF source will not generate clicks.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 19, 2022)

Baci said:


> The issue of static electricity is interesting. An earlier post also referred to it being problematic if the DAC had transformer coupled inputs. I am not aware of other electrical devices being susceptible to damage via static electricity build up, or reliant on particular kinds of inputs. Or have I misunderstood?


You should understand that I didn't read previous posts (which I made a note of that), so I made a number of wrong asumptions to the system configuration and a multiroom configuration was one of them. But you asked a question, it needs an answer. Yes in a presence of extensive noise, inputs of the receiver coupled with capacitors can be saturated and repeated peaks can temporarily open surface diode of the IC. When it happens, it is already dangerous situation leading to a permanent damage. As a current flow is not symmetric anymore, it can built up a DC voltage that would increase over a time (AC rectification issue). This is roughly about what I was talking about, I don't remember the earlier post you mention.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jan 19, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> Confirmed. Apparently the channels had to be swapped as they were wrong in the first place


This is different from what I'm hearing. I just checked an SACD iso rip via foobar on RME and Brooklyn DAC+ to make sure I knew what channel was what. They both matched.

Then I played the same album over the DI-20 into my R8 MKII. All three DACs have the channels correct. I'm using the stock DI-20 firmware and stock Amanero driver.

But I couldn't play DSD256 over the DI-20.

I'm downloading a DSD 256 sample file on the Windows box connected to the DI-20 now.

Update: no joy. I can play DSD128 but 256 causes foobar to object and refuse to cooperate. I think somebody upthread mentioned something about a plugin level. I'll check after I confirm Musicbee has the same issue.

Update 2: Musicbee seems now unable to play even DSD at all, just static and noise. I don't know if something broke courtesy WIndows update...


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> This is different from what I'm hearing. I just checked an SACD iso rip via foobar on RME and Brooklyn DAC+ to make sure I knew what channel was what. They both matched.
> 
> Then I played the same album over the DI-20 into my R8 MKII. All three DACs have the channels correct. I'm using the stock DI-20 firmware and stock Amanero driver.
> 
> ...



Trying to understand... Are you talking about swapped channels or the unability to play DSD256 on Windows? The latter I have no experience with. All I know is that I had to choose other Amanero fw in order to play DSD256 with Linux. And that my standard stereo L-R test was OK with the DSDSWAPPED version.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Trying to understand... Are you talking about swapped channels or the unability to play DSD256 on Windows? The latter I have no experience with. All I know is that I had to choose other Amanero fw in order to play DSD256 with Linux. And that my standard stereo L-R test was OK with the DSDSWAPPED version.


I understood from what you wrote that your channels were originally swapped, mine are not.

Yes, several people have been unable to play DSD256 on Windows. I could play it only through HQPlayer, but foobar and musicbee can't. Musicbee is broken now and doesn't play DSD at all, but Foobar can play up to DSD128.


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> I understood from what you wrote that your channels were originally swapped, mine are not.



To be precise:
L-R was correct with the Amanero stock version, and also with the 2006be11 DSDSWAPPED version.
I never tried the 2006be11 non-swapped version but assume that there it would be incorrect.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> To be precise:
> L-R was correct with the Amanero stock version, and also with the 2006be11 DSDSWAPPED version.
> I never tried the 2006be11 non-swapped version but assume that there it would be incorrect.


Thanks, now I forget why you installed the DSD SWAPPED version...


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thanks, now I forget why you installed the DSD SWAPPED version...


Because the stock version does not play DSD256 with Linux.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Because the stock version does not play DSD256 with Linux.


Ok, so it also doesn't seem to want to play DSD256 with Windows. I'll try it this weekend.


----------



## sajunky (Jan 20, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Ok, so it also doesn't seem to want to play DSD256 with Windows. I'll try it this weekend.


Stock Amanero firmware will play in Windows up to DSD128 (DoP), as you do currently. DSD256 will only play in a raw (native) mode through ASIO, it is why Hqplayer was able to play DSD256. Not many applications support native DSD playback. Foobar 2000 can, but only with proxy support. A new name of proxy driver is DSD Transcoder. Version matching is important with Foobar and SACD plugin.

A firmware for CPLD_1081 will play DSD256 (DoP) in Foobar without proxy. Note that a different drivers should be installed, but it enable DSD256 playback without hassle. DSD512 only play in a native mode, so Hqplayer is needed or Foobar with proxy support.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> Stock Amanero firmware will play in Windows up to DSD128 (DoP), as you do currently. DSD256 will only play in a raw (native) mode through ASIO, it is why Hqplayer was able to play DSD256. Not many applications support native DSD playback. Foobar 2000 can, but only with proxy support. A new name of proxy driver is DSD Transcoder.


You are saying something very interesting as usual, @sajunky. When I setup foobar, I chose ASIO of course, and configured DSD output instead of DSD+PCM or PCM. My intention was to do native DSD output.

But when I ran foobar into my Mutec, I saw it was using DoP... And when somebody (I think @DACLadder sorry if I attribute to the wrong person as I don't have it in front of me at the moment) posted Kingwa's setup for DSD512 and PCM384, I noticed he was using a proxy and I asked why a proxy was necessary and didn't see any answers.



sajunky said:


> Version matching is important with Foobar and SACD plugin.


Yes, I had to fiddle with that on several PCs but when I got it to play SACD rips on various DACs I didn't update things further.



sajunky said:


> A firmware for CPLD_1081 will play DSD256 (DoP) in Foobar without proxy. Note that a different drivers should be installed, but it enable DSD256 playback without hassle. DSD512 only play in a native mode, so Hqplayer is needed or Foobar with proxy support.


Many thanks for this info! I will look into it over the weekend.

Do you know why the ASIO proxy is required for DSD256 and above?


----------



## sajunky (Jan 23, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Do you know why the ASIO proxy is required for DSD256 and above?


Proxy in the simplest configuration takes Foobar output, strip it from DoP headers and send a raw data to the ASIO driver. No changes in Foobar required, except selecting a different output (dsdtranscoder or foo_dsd_asio depends which proxy driver is installed), and configuring this driver. Foobar for dummies website describe all steps required. Refer to Mode 2 section for DSDTranscoder and Mode 4 for the old proxy driver. I would try Mode 2 first, as since I tried, many bugs are fixed.

In the SACD plugin settings the output must be DSD or DSD+PCM, there is no difference except the later forks data to the visualisation section of Foobar.


----------



## PeterCraig

Here are some additional test files. No DSD 512 though.

https://www.soundliaison.com/index.php/6-compare-formats


----------



## sajunky

PeterCraig said:


> Here are some additional test files. No DSD 512 though.
> 
> https://www.soundliaison.com/index.php/6-compare-formats


Also on the 2L website. 

If you want DSD512 for testing, you can real-time upsample any format in "DSD Processor" (Mode 3 in the guide). Not needed when using the older proxy driver foo_dsd_asio, as it has upsampling functionality built-in.


----------



## Bambaryla (Jan 21, 2022)

Hi,
I'm new here and I need to contact Audio gd support. Their e mail audio-gd@vip.163.com did not respond, I have tried many times. Anyone know what the problem is? They have my broken Master 7 dac.

Ps. I have also DI-20HE interface and NFB1AMP headamp.

Best regards
Peter


----------



## frizzup

Bambaryla said:


> Hi,
> I'm new here and I need to contact Audio gd support. Their e mail audio-gd@vip.163.com did not respond, I have tried many times. Anyone know what the problem is? They have my broken Master 7 dac.
> 
> Ps. I have also DI-20HE interface and NFB1AMP headamp.
> ...


*2022 Chinese New Year Holiday *
Audio-gd co. will on holiday between 25th. Jan. to 7th. Feb. 2022.

Frizzup


----------



## Bambaryla

frizzup said:


> *2022 Chinese New Year Holiday *
> Audio-gd co. will on holiday between 25th. Jan. to 7th. Feb. 2022.
> 
> Frizzup


Yep, I know. I sent email october 20, last email january 10. No answer.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jan 22, 2022)

Thanks again to @sajunky

I have native DSD 256 working with my RME and Brooklyn DAC+

Now I'll work on the system that has my DI-20....

Update: DSD 256 is now working on the big rig 

Unrelated: after the last Windows update and maybe a Musicbee update, Musicbee is in bad shape


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Should we use the async option (can't remember if I saw it on the proxy settings or on the DSD processor)? It did not find it discussed on the dummies page.


----------



## sajunky

Never saw


----------



## LegatoB

Curious how the DI-HE20 is compared to the Singxer SU-6


----------



## gimmeheadroom

tkss4489 said:


> Curious how the DI-HE20 is compared to the Singxer SU-6


If you read this thread you will see everybody who had a Singxer says the DI-20 HE is noticeably better.


----------



## FredA

Anyone with a hdmi i2s cable recommendation? I use the silver one from Ali between the r7he mkii and di20he. Best i have tried so far.


----------



## roberto2 (Jan 30, 2022)

FredA said:


> Anyone with a hdmi i2s cable recommendation? I use the silver one from Ali between the r7he mkii and di20he. Best i have tried so far.


I have purchased a silver cable on Ali that works very well in my opinion between DI20HE and Terminator dac.
But it is impossible to put the address here! (don't know why!)


----------



## FredA

roberto2 said:


> I have purchased a silver cable on Ali that works very well in my opinion between DI20HE and Terminator dac.
> But it is impossible to put the address here! (don't know why!)


Thanks. I have one such cable too or very similar. It works very well indeed. Just looking for even better. Not sure if it is worth looking, though.


----------



## roberto2

FredA said:


> Thanks. I have one such cable too or very similar. It works very well indeed. Just looking for even better. Not sure if it is worth looking, though.


May be but at what price? I had considered Afterdark HDMI but I don't know if it is better than the Ali silver.
The Ali is: "AVplay – câble Audiophile i2S/IIS DAC HD-300"
And the seller is Queenway Store


----------



## FredA

roberto2 said:


> May be but at what price? I had considered Afterdark HDMI but I don't know if it is better than the Ali silver.
> The Ali is: "AVplay – câble Audiophile i2S/IIS DAC HD-300"
> And the seller is Queenway Store


Yes this is the one i have. It is really good. I have one from Afterdark. But not their best. The avplay beats it. I do not want to spend too much on this for just a small upgrade.


----------



## falcon70

FredA said:


> Yes this is the one i have. It is really good. I have one from Afterdark. But not their best. The avplay beats it. I do not want to spend too much on this for just a small upgrade.


I have the AVplay HD300 silver too, better then Audioquest pearl.
Last month I borrowed the Tubulus concentus i2s cable from my friend.
I have to say that this Tubulus silver cable is fantastic, better in every aspect then AVplay. It is thick and rigid.
But costs 650 Euro, too expensive. Tubulus has cheaper ones: Argentus and Libentus, not heard them.


----------



## slazhx

falcon70 said:


> Tubulus has cheaper ones: Argentus and Libentus, not heard them.



I was lucky to get used Argentus for 50% discount . I would say it is a very great cable.


----------



## PeterCraig

I also agree the AVplay HDMI cable is excellent. Takes a long time to break in. 

Those are Canadian dollars for the 0.5m length. That's actually a nice length compared to my other 0.3m cable.


----------



## ddpete

I just received my DI-20 about 2 weeks ago.  It sounded great out-of-the-box.  Then I started to run it overnight 24/7 to begin the burn-in process.  The sound quality started to degrade.  I could repower the DI-20 and the DAC and the sound would come back ... for a while.  Then it would start to degrade again.  I emailed Kingwas and he sent me instructions to upgrade/optimize the Amareno for my Linux server,  I did as instructed and the system sounded great at first.  But, eventually the sound started to degrade again.  Now, I can't even get the sound to be good even if I repower everything,.  My system is: Linux server>DI-20 (via USB)>DAC (mojo audio mystique v2+)> preamp/amp.  I even tried my CD transport (which is Coax thru the DI-20 to coax again), and that sounds just as bad.  Any advice?


----------



## FredA

ddpete said:


> I just received my DI-20 about 2 weeks ago.  It sounded great out-of-the-box.  Then I started to run it overnight 24/7 to begin the burn-in process.  The sound quality started to degrade.  I could repower the DI-20 and the DAC and the sound would come back ... for a while.  Then it would start to degrade again.  I emailed Kingwas and he sent me instructions to upgrade/optimize the Amareno for my Linux server,  I did as instructed and the system sounded great at first.  But, eventually the sound started to degrade again.  Now, I can't even get the sound to be good even if I repower everything,.  My system is: Linux server>DI-20 (via USB)>DAC (mojo audio mystique v2+)> preamp/amp.  I even tried my CD transport (which is Coax thru the DI-20 to coax again), and that sounds just as bad.  Any advice?


The di20 needs over 700h of burn-in. Just be patient. Give it 2 additional weeks. At least. 2 weeks is far from enough.


----------



## FredA

Also, as far as sound quality, rebooting the computer once in a while is a good idea.


----------



## FredA

I have ordered this beefy HDMI cable  from Singapore. It is  a new product for this seller. I should get it within 2-3 week. Got a 0.5m. I hope it is not too stiff. If you want the biggest, it sure is a contender. 

https://audiolund.com/product/audiolund-hdmi-i2s-cable-true-silver-series-1-0m/


----------



## PeterCraig

FredA said:


> I have ordered this beefy HDMI cable  from Singapore. It is  a new product for this seller. I should get it within 2-3 week. Got a 0.5m. I hope it is not too stiff. If you want the biggest, it sure is a contender.
> 
> https://audiolund.com/product/audiolund-hdmi-i2s-cable-true-silver-series-1-0m/



Fred you just can't sit still 😛


----------



## FredA

PeterCraig said:


> Fred you just can't sit still 😛


Indeed.


----------



## sajunky

FredA said:


> The di20 needs over 700h of burn-in. Just be patient. Give it 2 additional weeks. At least. 2 weeks is far from enough.


It doesn't seem a temporary burnin regression, it is something about building up static electricity or S/PDIF receiver works on the border of losing synchronisation.

@ddpete, I would check grounding of all devices. A weak link seems to be S/PDIF connection between DI-20 and a DAC. Is it the same when playing 44.1 and 48kHz files? Different oscilators are used for two families, a small deviation of base frequency can cause such symptoms. Mojo Audio guys are audio perfectionist, they could use very tight synchronisation loop, I would also ask them wheter it is a known problem. If you have a diferent DAC, it would be the easiest way to identify a culprint. You can also try a different S/PDIF cable, it can be faulty.


----------



## higginsd

Any informations about a new firmware version?


----------



## ddpete

FredA said:


> The di20 needs over 700h of burn-in. Just be patient. Give it 2 additional weeks. At least. 2 weeks is far from enough.


Hi,

Thank you for the input.  I have already 'burned-in' my DI-20 for about 2oo hours, so I thought things would improve ... but they haven't.  I'll keep burning away and shoot for another 2 weeks as you suggest.  Thanks again.


----------



## ddpete

sajunky said:


> It doesn't seem a temporary burnin regression, it is something about building up static electricity or S/PDIF receiver works on the border of losing synchronisation.
> 
> @ddpete, I would check grounding of all devices. A weak link seems to be S/PDIF connection between DI-20 and a DAC. Is it the same when playing 44.1 and 48kHz files? Different oscilators are used for two families, a small deviation of base frequency can cause such symptoms. Mojo Audio guys are audio perfectionist, they could use very tight synchronisation loop, I would also ask them wheter it is a known problem. If you have a diferent DAC, it would be the easiest way to identify a culprint. You can also try a different S/PDIF cable, it can be faulty.


Thank you for your reply.  Maybe it would be a grounding issue, but, as I use a sensitive tube amp, I thought I would've had other grounding issues before.  Anyway,  I use a 1.5m Black Cat S/PDIF going from the DI-20 to my Mojo Audio DAC.  This cable sounds great when going straight from my transport to the DAC.  But I'll swap it with a Kimber Illuminations D60 that I have and see if it makes a difference.  Also, I do have another DAC so I'll replace the Mojo with that one and see if it makes a difference.  I use JRiver on my Linux server.  Do you think I might have something set up wrong on JRiver?  Thanks again.


----------



## PeterCraig

I had a similar sounding problem years ago with a different DDC then the DI20. The issue occurred only when I changed sample rates and the dac lost the "lock" on the signal and the sound quality degraded. But turning everything off and on solved this issue. Until I again played music with a different sample rate.

The solution in this case was a new DDC.


----------



## ddpete

FredA said:


> Also, as far as sound quality, rebooting the computer once in a while is a good idea.


Thanks for another reply to my inquiry.  I have rebooted my server a couple of times .. but it did not change anything.  It did change things the first time I did that, but the 2nd and 3rd time didn't make any change.  The sound quality is not really a high fidelity issue.  The sound that comes out is fuzzy with a lot of background hiss/fuzz.  The music can still play simple single instrument pieces but the fuzziness is obvious (even to my son who is not a 'listener') and when the music starts to get a little more complicated and more instruments come in or the tempo changes quickly, the sound of the instruments deteriorates to very fuzzy sound as well.  I'm using JRiver, but I dont know if maybe I have something set wrong on that.  Thanks again.


----------



## ddpete

PeterCraig said:


> I had a similar sounding problem years ago with a different DDC then the DI20. The issue occurred only when I changed sample rates and the dac lost the "lock" on the signal and the sound quality degraded. But turning everything off and on solved this issue. Until I again played music with a different sample rate.
> 
> The solution in this case was a new DDC.


Thank you for your input on this.  I'm going to try another DAC that I have and see if it changes.  I hope it's not the case as I really like my Mojo DAC and that is the reason I went with the DI-20 to begin with.


----------



## FredA

ddpete said:


> Thank you for your input on this.  I'm going to try another DAC that I have and see if it changes.  I hope it's not the case as I really like my Mojo DAC and that is the reason I went with the DI-20 to begin with.


The rca out is more likely to work pefectly than the bnc, which is a current output, by the way.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 5, 2022)

ddpete said:


> The sound quality is not really a high fidelity issue. The sound that comes out is fuzzy with a lot of background hiss/fuzz. The music can still play simple single instrument pieces but the fuzziness is obvious (even to my son who is not a 'listener') and when the music starts to get a little more complicated and more instruments come in or the tempo changes quickly, the sound of the instruments deteriorates to very fuzzy sound as well. I'm using JRiver, but I dont know if maybe I have something set wrong on that.


Changing tempo confirms that it is PLL synchronisation issue. It happens when a source clock frequency differ to much from a nominal frequency a receiver is tuned for or error rate is to high. When a sample rate changes from 44.1kHz to 48kHz or in reverse, a different oscilator is involved and problem probably will go away. In this situation if by example problem is at 44.1kHz, upsampling to a multiple (88.2 176.4...) is expected to make it worse. But resampling to 48kHz should fix a problem. I don't say it is a permanent solution, but worth checking...

It has probably nothing with JRiver, but here you can resample using SoX (I think) from 44.1kHz to 48 or in reverse to see which base frequency gives a problem.

The easiest way to determine a cause is to swap devices/cables, please report a progress.


----------



## ddpete

sajunky said:


> Changing tempo confirms that it is PLL synchronisation issue. It happens when a source clock frequency differ to much from a nominal frequency a receiver is tuned for or error rate is to high. When a sample rate changes from 44.1kHz to 48kHz or in reverse, a different oscilator is involved and problem probably will go away. In this situation if by example problem is at 44.1kHz, upsampling to a multiple (88.2 176.4...) is expected to make it worse. But resampling to 48kHz should fix a problem. I don't say it is a permanent solution, but worth checking...
> 
> It has probably nothing with JRiver, but here you can resample using SoX (I think) from 44.1kHz to 48 or in reverse to see which base frequency gives a problem.
> 
> The easiest way to determine a cause is to swap devices/cables, please report a progress.


Thank you for your response. I had a fleeting thought last week that this may be due to some synchronization issue.  I will certainly try to use JRiver to resample the output and see what happens.  I am not very familiar with it (JRiver), but I'll figure it out.  I'm also going to try swapping cables and DACs.  In the mean time, the burn-in process continues.  I really do appreciate and value all the suggestions I have received concerning this issue.  I have an insane work schedule and wont be able to try any of these things until Tues.  I will try them on Tuesday and report back at that time.  Thanks again.


----------



## ddpete

FredA said:


> The rca out is more likely to work pefectly than the bnc, which is a current output, by the way.


Thank you for that tidbit of information.  I'll stay away form the BNC output connector on the DI-20 until I get everything running perfectly.


----------



## PeterCraig

Looking forward to more of this story. The ultimate test bench is to be able to switch out and try different gear.


----------



## sajunky

PeterCraig said:


> Looking forward to more of this story. The ultimate test bench is to be able to switch out and try different gear.


There is no ultimate test in this story. If one device works slightly outside a nominal frequency limits and other the same but in the same direction, they will still work together. It doesn't mean that those two are right, as a device that stays perfectly inside prescribed limits may not work. Measurement is the best, statistical next, unfortunately none of them is available for home user. All we can do is to (1) confirm a cause,  (2) trying one of possible action.


----------



## ddpete

ddpete said:


> Thank you for your response. I had a fleeting thought last week that this may be due to some synchronization issue.  I will certainly try to use JRiver to resample the output and see what happens.  I am not very familiar with it (JRiver), but I'll figure it out.  I'm also going to try swapping cables and DACs.  In the mean time, the burn-in process continues.  I really do appreciate and value all the suggestions I have received concerning this issue.  I have an insane work schedule and wont be able to try any of these things until Tues.  I will try them on Tuesday and report back at that time.  Thanks again.


I guess another thing that troubles me about this whole thing is that, prior to obtaining the DI-20, I was using a M2Tech HiFace2.  It simply plugged into one of the usb ports on my server, JRiver saw it and I selected the HiFace, plugged the S/PDIF cable into the HiFace and my dac and launched the music.  It worked with everything with no problem and it sounded good.  I just didn't like plugging and unplugging my S/PDIF cable when I wanted to use the CD transport.  Now I feel like I've got a high-maintenance device that is taking the fun out of audio.  Basically, I want to just sit and listen .. I don't want to get up to turn equipment on and off when things don't sound right and, given the investment I have in my system, any sound which is not high fidelity makes me cringe.  Plus constantly rebooting this equipment, In addition to being a big pain in the butt, will also wear out the equipment fast.  So I'll try the things that have been suggested and give it a bit more burn-in time.  But I've already spent a lot of time and personal bandwidth on this thing just to get it to work.  Hopefully I'll find a solution soon.  Else I'll need to start to consider alternatives (i.e. I still have the HiFace2)


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Feb 6, 2022)

Haven't understood the issue but a few questions, feel free to ignore if you don't find them helpful.


Are you using USB input to the DI-20 and have you confirmed that USB is selected on the DI-20?
Are you using coaxial S/PDIF input to the DI-20 and have you confirmed coax is selected on the DI-20?
Have you tried switch between parallel and serial on the DI-20, and does it make any difference?
Have you checked the DI-20 settings to verify everything is as desired? Do you perhaps have external clock selected without a 10 MHz clock connected?
Have you verified the DI-20 appears reliably from the standpoint of the Linux box? I don't remember if Amanero is needed for Linux but I guess it is. If you press the button on the back it's possible to wipe Amanero and it would have to be reinstalled.


----------



## FredA (Feb 6, 2022)

ddpete said:


> I guess another thing that troubles me about this whole thing is that, prior to obtaining the DI-20, I was using a M2Tech HiFace2.  It simply plugged into one of the usb ports on my server, JRiver saw it and I selected the HiFace, plugged the S/PDIF cable into the HiFace and my dac and launched the music.  It worked with everything with no problem and it sounded good.  I just didn't like plugging and unplugging my S/PDIF cable when I wanted to use the CD transport.  Now I feel like I've got a high-maintenance device that is taking the fun out of audio.  Basically, I want to just sit and listen .. I don't want to get up to turn equipment on and off when things don't sound right and, given the investment I have in my system, any sound which is not high fidelity makes me cringe.  Plus constantly rebooting this equipment, In addition to being a big pain in the butt, will also wear out the equipment fast.  So I'll try the things that have been suggested and give it a bit more burn-in time.  But I've already spent a lot of time and personal bandwidth on this thing just to get it to work.  Hopefully I'll find a solution soon.  Else I'll need to start to consider alternatives (i.e. I still have the HiFace2)


Some user had problems with a Qutest at some point. There could be issues with Chord dacs in general. I leave my di20he on 24/7 and have no issue with my linux-based streamer.

As for being patient, it depends on you of course. When things work properly, sound quality and stability are excellent. The Amanero can be played 24/7 for weeks without issues, i just did it doing the burn-in of my r2r mkii.

Some ps-audio owner was complaining about sound quality at first and was rewarded by being patient. The Accusilicon clocks need time.


----------



## PeterCraig

Plus once everything is sorted, for better or for worse, you will have a computer audio lesson that plugging in everything and having it just work doesn't give you.

It definitely sucks though. Good luck.


----------



## ddpete

gimmeheadroom said:


> Haven't understood the issue but a few questions, feel free to ignore if you don't find them helpful.
> 
> 
> Are you using USB input to the DI-20 and have you confirmed that USB is selected on the DI-20?
> ...


Thank you for reading my posts.  To answer your questions:
1. yes
2. yes
3. yes. there was a variation in the 'color' of the sound between S and P
4. Yes.  There's not may settings on the DI to change but I believe I have it set up correctly.  I do not have external clock selected.
5. Yes.  JRiver sees the Amanero and that's what I select for output.  I did update the Amanero as soon as I received the DI (about 2 weeks ago).  And I did try reinstalling it 2 nights ago, but nothing changed.


----------



## ddpete

PeterCraig said:


> Plus once everything is sorted, for better or for worse, you will have a computer audio lesson that plugging in everything and having it just work doesn't give you.
> 
> It definitely sucks though. Good luck.


That's for sure.  It's forcing me to look at the format of my file (all FLAC, of course) and forcing me to learn some of the intricacies of JRiver.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

@ddpete sorry about the ongoing troubles. You could have a defective unit, it's hard to know. There have been very few issues in this thread but I do remember at least one or two guys who had their units replaced. Good luck and lettuce know how you're making out.


----------



## ddpete

FredA said:


> Some user had problems with a Qutest at some point. There could be issues with Chord dacs in general. I leave my di20he on 24/7 and have no issue with my linux-based streamer.
> 
> As for being patient, it depends on you of course. When things work properly, sound quality and stability are excellent. The Amanero can be played 24/7 for weeks without issues, i just did it doing the burn-in of my r2r mkii.
> 
> Some ps-audio owner was complaining about sound quality at first and was rewarded by being patient. The Accusilicon clocks need time.


Thanks for the info.  My dac isn't a Chord mojo.  My dac is a Mojo Audio Mystique V2+.  I'll try some of the things suggested here and keeping burning in the DI.  I truly hope that it comes around.  When I first pulled it out of the box. hooked it up and turned it on ... the sound was awesome.  I was hearing things that I hadn't heard before (I could hear when the drummer would lightly tap his crash cymbal and then his ride cymbal lightly back and forth ... I was amazed.  But then as I started to go through other files, the sound started to degrade ... sometimes it comes back but then it degrades again.  I guess we'll see.


----------



## ddpete

gimmeheadroom said:


> @ddpete sorry about the ongoing troubles. You could have a defective unit, it's hard to know. There have been very few issues in this thread but I do remember at least one or two guys who had their units replaced. Good luck and lettuce know how you're making out.


Thanks.  Will do.  BTW, I like what you have for dinner.  Cheers


----------



## gimmeheadroom

ddpete said:


> Thanks.  Will do.  BTW, I like what you have for dinner.  Cheers


It's the national pride of the country. I would be remiss in my patriotic duty otherwise!


----------



## FredA

ddpete said:


> Thanks for the info.  My dac isn't a Chord mojo.  My dac is a Mojo Audio Mystique V2+.  I'll try some of the things suggested here and keeping burning in the DI.  I truly hope that it comes around.  When I first pulled it out of the box. hooked it up and turned it on ... the sound was awesome.  I was hearing things that I hadn't heard before (I could hear when the drummer would lightly tap his crash cymbal and then his ride cymbal lightly back and forth ... I was amazed.  But then as I started to go through other files, the sound started to degrade ... sometimes it comes back but then it degrades again.  I guess we'll see.


This is typical of the burn-in I would say.


----------



## PeterCraig

FredA said:


> This is typical of the burn-in I would say.



I agree that it does sound like burn in may solve this issue. The issue itself hasn't been constant since day 1, it has been going through changes. For myself I had clock issues until about 350 hours.


----------



## ddpete

PeterCraig said:


> I agree that it does sound like burn in may solve this issue. The issue itself hasn't been constant since day 1, it has been going through changes. For myself I had clock issues until about 350 hours.


I hope you're right about it just being a burn-in problem.  I've tried just about everything else.  I tried swapping DACs, no change.  I tried swapping S/PDIF cables, no change.  It sometimes starts to come back and sound better, almost perfect .. almost.  Then I'll do something simple and it will slide back to degraded sound mode.

I have been running this almost non-stop since I got it.  3 days ago (after about 250 hours of burn-in) it sounded pretty good. It had been playing the same album over and over for about 150 hours, so I changed to a different album and  ... fuzzy noisy music ... back to square-one.  So I rebooted everything (server,dac & DI).  It came back partially, so I rebooted everything again.  It sounded ok so I got it going again non-stop on a different album.  I  let this play for about another 100 hours and it sounded better than when I started.  Great.  So I tried different albums and each one would play successfully (good, but not perfect with still some low level distortion and occasional background noise), but it was going the right direction (also, side note, almost all of my files are FLAC 16 bit 44.1 kHz .. I do have a couple of MP3s, but that's it).  So, I powered everything down and even unplugged everything as I had to shuffle some components around so they would be in a more permanent position.  When I fired everything up again, it sounded almost as bad as day 1.  I checked all the interconnects as well as all of the equipment and everything looked ok.  I even cleaned all of the contacts on the ICs and SPDIF cables with DeoxIT.  I rebooted everything 2 or 3 times and the sound came back ok.  I ran it for about another 25 hours and it was sounding as good as it did before I dismanteled everything and moved it around .. good but still not perfect.  Anyways, I was listenning while I was doing some work yesterday and dropped the volume a bit using the JRiver volume (I almost alwys used my pre-amp to control volume).  Now, the sound sounded awful again.  All I did was slide JRiver volume from 100% to about 75% and the sound fell apart. Reboot, reboot again, start another album playing and it had seemed to come back.  It sounded ok for a few hours then just started to sound degraded again.  Rebooted everything and it is running now and sounding good (but still not perfect as some low-level background sounds sound fuzzy or muddy and there is sometimes very soft background noise where there shouldn't be any).  But it seems like things may be on the right path and getting better.  As I mentioned, i tried different components and cables and nothing worked.  Right now, I think I have about 350 hours of burn-in and I'm going to let it keep burning for the next 2 weeks.  The sound level that I am using now on JRiver is 75% (see above about what happened when I was burning-in using 100% volume on JRiver).  If this extended burn-in doesn't work, back to China this will go.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

What DAC are you using with it? And why are you using software volume control?


----------



## Baci

ddpete said:


> I hope you're right about it just being a burn-in problem.  I've tried just about everything else.  I tried swapping DACs, no change.  I tried swapping S/PDIF cables, no change.  It sometimes starts to come back and sound better, almost perfect .. almost.  Then I'll do something simple and it will slide back to degraded sound mode.
> 
> I have been running this almost non-stop since I got it.  3 days ago (after about 250 hours of burn-in) it sounded pretty good. It had been playing the same album over and over for about 150 hours, so I changed to a different album and  ... fuzzy noisy music ... back to square-one.  So I rebooted everything (server,dac & DI).  It came back partially, so I rebooted everything again.  It sounded ok so I got it going again non-stop on a different album.  I  let this play for about another 100 hours and it sounded better than when I started.  Great.  So I tried different albums and each one would play successfully (good, but not perfect with still some low level distortion and occasional background noise), but it was going the right direction (also, side note, almost all of my files are FLAC 16 bit 44.1 kHz .. I do have a couple of MP3s, but that's it).  So, I powered everything down and even unplugged everything as I had to shuffle some components around so they would be in a more permanent position.  When I fired everything up again, it sounded almost as bad as day 1.  I checked all the interconnects as well as all of the equipment and everything looked ok.  I even cleaned all of the contacts on the ICs and SPDIF cables with DeoxIT.  I rebooted everything 2 or 3 times and the sound came back ok.  I ran it for about another 25 hours and it was sounding as good as it did before I dismanteled everything and moved it around .. good but still not perfect.  Anyways, I was listenning while I was doing some work yesterday and dropped the volume a bit using the JRiver volume (I almost alwys used my pre-amp to control volume).  Now, the sound sounded awful again.  All I did was slide JRiver volume from 100% to about 75% and the sound fell apart. Reboot, reboot again, start another album playing and it had seemed to come back.  It sounded ok for a few hours then just started to sound degraded again.  Rebooted everything and it is running now and sounding good (but still not perfect as some low-level background sounds sound fuzzy or muddy and there is sometimes very soft background noise where there shouldn't be any).  But it seems like things may be on the right path and getting better.  As I mentioned, i tried different components and cables and nothing worked.  Right now, I think I have about 350 hours of burn-in and I'm going to let it keep burning for the next 2 weeks.  The sound level that I am using now on JRiver is 75% (see above about what happened when I was burning-in using 100% volume on JRiver).  If this extended burn-in doesn't work, back to China this will go.


For what it's worth my experience (and frustration) paralleled your own. I am using a Musical Paradise tube DAC which seems to be the issue. When I swapped the DAC out for a Mytek Brooklyn everything worked perfectly. Why the tube DAC is an issue I don't know. It sounds wonderful so I don't want to take it out of my system permanently. After experimenting endlessly I arrived at a solution that gives me rock solid playback. It involves using HQPlayer (itself a wonderful piece of software) to upsample 44.1 to 88.2, and 48 to 96. I keep everything at 16 bit, it all works flawlessly and sounds amazing. I have periodically taken the DI-20HE out of my system out of frustration then put it back to try again, and there's no doubt that when doing its job properly it is truly a 'magic box'. Unbelievably good. But if I try to upsample to 192 for example, or use a bit depth larger than 16 bits, it works for a while then turns to poo. On the odd occasions I get the degraded playback now I just pull the coax input and reseat and it returns to playing perfectly. PM me if you'd like further details.


----------



## ddpete

Baci said:


> For what it's worth my experience (and frustration) paralleled your own. I am using a Musical Paradise tube DAC which seems to be the issue. When I swapped the DAC out for a Mytek Brooklyn everything worked perfectly. Why the tube DAC is an issue I don't know. It sounds wonderful so I don't want to take it out of my system permanently. After experimenting endlessly I arrived at a solution that gives me rock solid playback. It involves using HQPlayer (itself a wonderful piece of software) to upsample 44.1 to 88.2, and 48 to 96. I keep everything at 16 bit, it all works flawlessly and sounds amazing. I have periodically taken the DI-20HE out of my system out of frustration then put it back to try again, and there's no doubt that when doing its job properly it is truly a 'magic box'. Unbelievably good. But if I try to upsample to 192 for example, or use a bit depth larger than 16 bits, it works for a while then turns to poo. On the odd occasions I get the degraded playback now I just pull the coax input and reseat and it returns to playing perfectly. PM me if you'd like further details.


Thank you for your observations and what you did to correct things.  I want to just let the DI burn-in for about 2 more weeks so it should have about 600 hrs of burn-in and see how it goes.  After that, I will try what you have said works for you.  With JRiver, I can upsample the 44.2 kHz to 88.2 kHz and 48 to 96 while leaving the bit depth at 16 .. and see what happens.  My DAC automatically upsamples to 24 bit 192 kHz, so we'll see.  I can also try and see if just reseating the coax cable will cure any degradion.  I guess I've been doing a total system reboot as I wanted everything to be fresh as I kept attempting to get things stabilized.  I just hate torturing my entire system like that though.  When I was just using a M2Tech HiFace2 to covert the USB to S/PDIF, everything went smoothly.  I know that the DI is much more complex and the results are much better, when it works.  So I'll keep at it ... at keast for as long as my bottle of scotch lasts ... LOL.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

You wrote that you're controlling volume with JRiver so I guess you're not using ASIO drivers. Really, anytime you let Windows get in the way of audio it can be problematic. First step should probably be to use ASIO and control volume at your amp.


----------



## ddpete

gimmeheadroom said:


> What DAC are you using with it? And why are you using software volume control?


I have a Mojo Audio Mystique V2+ DAC.  I was using the software volume control because I was sitting at my desk working and needed to turn down the volume (I control my Linux audio server with my desktop PC using VNC).  I've done that many times before as well as raised the volume with the software volume control and never had a problem.  That was pre-DI.


----------



## ddpete

gimmeheadroom said:


> You wrote that you're controlling volume with JRiver so I guess you're not using ASIO drivers. Really, anytime you let Windows get in the way of audio it can be problematic. First step should probably be to use ASIO and control volume at your amp.


I'm not using any drivers because my server is Linux-based.


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## gimmeheadroom (Feb 9, 2022)

ddpete said:


> I have a Mojo Audio Mystique V2+ DAC.  I was using the software volume control because I was sitting at my desk working and needed to turn down the volume (I control my Linux audio server with my desktop PC using VNC).  I've done that many times before as well as raised the volume with the software volume control and never had a problem.  That was pre-DI.


If you're not using ASIO to the DI-20 or anything else, you're not getting the best sound quality. And, it's an opportunity for Windows to resample and break things.
And if you have software volume control then you are not running bitperfect, which is a shame when you have spent so much money for a wonderful DAC.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Feb 10, 2022)

ddpete said:


> I'm not using any drivers because my server is Linux-based.


I see. Well, Linux and audio are not good bedfellows. Sorry for the tangent...
Nevertheless, when you use software volume control you break bitperfect and introduce layers of software that can negatively affect the bitstream. If you can recreate your problem with the volume set to 100% it will be a step towards understanding what to do next.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 10, 2022)

ddpete said:


> With JRiver, I can upsample the 44.2 kHz to 88.2 kHz and 48 to 96 while leaving the bit depth at 16 .. and see what happens.


I have no idea why upsampling to the same family should be helping in your case, but is not harmful, you can try. On a side note, the best SQ is achieved when 24-bit output is selected when upsampling (as long your DAC support it).

For me, more important is to get feedback on playing 48kHz family samples. When you find during playing 44.1k files (your most library) SQ degradation and you normally cure it by reboot, change a track to a 48kHz family to see whether SQ comes back. If it does, what happen when you continue to play 44.1k file? I expect that SQ comes back with 44.1k file too.

48kHz samples can be found on the 2L website


----------



## ddpete

sajunky said:


> I have no idea why upsampling to the same family should be helping in your case, but is not harmful, you can try. On a side note, the best SQ is achieved when 24-bit output is selected when upsampling (as long your DAC support it).
> 
> For me, more important is to get feedback on playing 48kHz family samples. When you find during playing 44.1k files (your most library) SQ degradation and you normally cure it by reboot, change a track to a 48kHz family to see whether SQ comes back. If it does, what happen when you continue to play 44.1k file? I expect that SQ comes back with 44.1k file too.
> 
> 48kHz samples can be found on the 2L website


Thank you for your reply.  I went to the 2L website you linked and I didn't see any 48kHz files.  There were all kinds of 24 bit with different sampling rates, but nothing for 48kHz.  Unless I misunderstood something, which is a distinct possibility.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 10, 2022)

I talk about 48kHz sample rate family that use a different oscilator than 44.1kHz. 96kHz and 192kHz samples belong to the 48kHz family. In other words, *you can download* 24-bit samples from this website. 24/192k is a maximum for your DAC, I think. If you insist on forcing me to do google search for you, here it is, seems not my kind of music, but it is 48kHz as you want, sorry, but will end on this...


----------



## FredA

ddpete said:


> Thank you for your reply.  I went to the 2L website you linked and I didn't see any 48kHz files.  There were all kinds of 24 bit with different sampling rates, but nothing for 48kHz.  Unless I misunderstood something, which is a distinct possibility.


A 96k file would do (48 family).


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## ddpete

FredA said:


> A 96k file would do (48 family).


ok, thanks.  I'll give that a try.  I just went to JRiver and checked the DSP Studio>Output Format section.  At the bottom of that page. as I'm playing one of my files it shows 
Source: 44.1 kHz  16bit  2ch      Internal: 44.1 kHz 64bit  2ch.  Then I changed the sample rate for 44.1 kHz to 88.2 kHz like the other gentleman had suggested.  And the sound has come back to very good.  Still not perfect or where it should be in my opinion, but better than fuzzy sound with noisy background.  At the bottom it now shows  Source 44.1 kHz  16bit  2ch     Internal: 88.2 kHz  64bit  2ch.  I tried higher bit rates and there seemed to be no improvement in sound.  So I unchecked Output Format (so it does not apply) and ths sound now stays good (still not great) and at the bottom of the page it shows  Source 44.1 kHz  16bit  2ch    Internal: 44.1 kHz  64bit  2ch.  So is the fact that JRiver insists on keeping the Internal at 64bit messing anything up?  My DAC upsamples to 192 kHz  24bit.  I poked all around JRiver and googled 'bit depth' many times but I cannot find how to change the Internal to 24bit so it will match my DAC.  Maybe it reads the 64bit number from the DI?  But why doesn't the DI change it to 24bit when it sends it to my DAC?   Or is this the wrong assumption to make?


----------



## ddpete

ddpete said:


> ok, thanks.  I'll give that a try.  I just went to JRiver and checked the DSP Studio>Output Format section.  At the bottom of that page. as I'm playing one of my files it shows
> Source: 44.1 kHz  16bit  2ch      Internal: 44.1 kHz 64bit  2ch.  Then I changed the sample rate for 44.1 kHz to 88.2 kHz like the other gentleman had suggested.  And the sound has come back to very good.  Still not perfect or where it should be in my opinion, but better than fuzzy sound with noisy background.  At the bottom it now shows  Source 44.1 kHz  16bit  2ch     Internal: 88.2 kHz  64bit  2ch.  I tried higher bit rates and there seemed to be no improvement in sound.  So I unchecked Output Format (so it does not apply) and ths sound now stays good (still not great) and at the bottom of the page it shows  Source 44.1 kHz  16bit  2ch    Internal: 44.1 kHz  64bit  2ch.  So is the fact that JRiver insists on keeping the Internal at 64bit messing anything up?  My DAC upsamples to 192 kHz  24bit.  I poked all around JRiver and googled 'bit depth' many times but I cannot find how to change the Internal to 24bit so it will match my DAC.  Maybe it reads the 64bit number from the DI?  But why doesn't the DI change it to 24bit when it sends it to my DAC?   Or is this the wrong assumption to make?


sorry, I didnt mean "I tried higher bit rates"  as I cannot find how to change the bit depth in JRiver.  Rather, I meant to say "I tried higher sample rates (96kHz &192kHz)"


----------



## sajunky

ddpete said:


> Internal: 44.1 kHz 64bit 2ch. So is the fact that JRiver insists on keeping the Internal at 64bit messing anything up?


It is irrelevant to you. Jriver use 64-bit for mathematical calculations during resampling. When resampling is important to select 24-bit output in Jriver, it is what you need to remember. When playing 16-bit files with a native sample rate (no resampling) it doesn't matter, it can be 16 or 24, but selecting 24-bit output do not harm, it is convenient to keep it ready for playing 24-bit files (or a resampled content).


----------



## ddpete

sajunky said:


> It is irrelevant to you. Jriver use 64-bit for mathematical calculations during resampling. When resampling is important to select 24-bit output in Jriver, it is what you need to remember. When playing 16-bit files with a native sample rate (no resampling) it doesn't matter, it can be 16 or 24, but selecting 24-bit output do not harm, it is convenient to keep it ready for playing 24-bit files (or a resampled content).


Thank you for replying to my comment.  I thought this may have been part of the problem I'm facing with degraded sound at certain times and the need to reboot my system.  I have not found how to change the bit depth in JRiver.  I guess it does play the native bit depth as it shows the native bit depth for the files, but that's it as far as I have found.


----------



## ddpete

ddpete said:


> Thank you for your observations and what you did to correct things.  I want to just let the DI burn-in for about 2 more weeks so it should have about 600 hrs of burn-in and see how it goes.  After that, I will try what you have said works for you.  With JRiver, I can upsample the 44.2 kHz to 88.2 kHz and 48 to 96 while leaving the bit depth at 16 .. and see what happens.  My DAC automatically upsamples to 24 bit 192 kHz, so we'll see.  I can also try and see if just reseating the coax cable will cure any degradion.  I guess I've been doing a total system reboot as I wanted everything to be fresh as I kept attempting to get things stabilized.  I just hate torturing my entire system like that though.  When I was just using a M2Tech HiFace2 to covert the USB to S/PDIF, everything went smoothly.  I know that the DI is much more complex and the results are much better, when it works.  So I'll keep at it ... at keast for as long as my bottle of scotch lasts ... LOL.


It looks like your little trick worked ... at least it worked for me.  When the sound of my system started to degrade and sound fuzzy, I went into the JRiver DSP Studio, set the 44.1 kHz sample rate to 88.2 mHz and it played like before .. it sounded good (but still not great as there still is a bit of fuzziness).  Then, when I switched back to the 44.1 mHz sample rate, the music continued to sound good.  I thank you for that ... and my equipment thanks you for that.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 11, 2022)

ddpete said:


> I have not found how to change the bit depth in JRiver. I guess it does play the native bit depth as it shows the native bit depth for the files, but that's it as far as I have found.


Yes. It says on the jriver wiki page that in the latest version bit depth is automatic. The same in Foobar the relevant settings is grayed when WASAPI Shared mode is selected. I thought that you have control over bit depth, as in your other post you wanted (following someone else suggestion) to upsample 16/44.1kHz file while keeping bit depth 16-bit which I objected immediately.

Now you should try to play in exclusive mode or ASIO as suggested by others. It helps to avoid system related delays that can give a similar behaviour of periodic breaking synchronisation. It happens on the misconfigured computer. ASIO is easier to configure, it is why is suggested when someone is experiencing trouble.


----------



## ddpete

sajunky said:


> Yes. It says on the jriver wiki page that in the latest version bit depth is automatic. The same in Foobar the relevant settings is grayed when WASAPI Shared mode is selected. I thought that you have control over bit depth, as in your other post you wanted (following someone else suggestion) to upsample 16/44.1kHz file while keeping bit depth 16-bit which I objected immediately.
> 
> Now you should try to play in exclusive mode or ASIO as suggested by others. It helps to avoid system related delays that can give a similar behaviour of periodic breaking synchronisation. It happens on the misconfigured computer. ASIO is easier to configure, it is why is suggested when someone is experiencing trouble.


Thanks again for your responses.  They are quite informative,  My server is Linux-based and Linux already has a low latency kernel, so there is no ASIO for Linux.  Similar to Windows WASAPI and ASIO, Linux has ALSO and JACK.  Both of these are currently being used in my JRiver installation.  There is a new WineASIO for Linux, but I don't really have the technical expertise or the time to install it and try if out.  Even if I could get it successfully installed, I'm not even sure if JRiver would accept it.  But maybe I have misunderstood something so feel free to correct me.  I'm still climbing the learning curve on the whole digital audio thing.


----------



## sajunky

Now is the time to explore bit perfect transfers in jriver. I suggest to compare jriver settings of your DAC (when connected directly) with DI-20. It may be something wrong that cause cracks. I don't know Linux to advise. And testing these 48kHz files, reminding in a case you have forgotten.


----------



## ddpete

sajunky said:


> Now is the time to explore bit perfect transfers in jriver. I suggest to compare jriver settings of your DAC (when connected directly) with DI-20. It may be something wrong that cause cracks. I don't know Linux to advise. And testing these 48kHz files, reminding in a case you have forgotten.


I have tried one of the 48kHz family files.  I found that one of my files was 96kHz.  I started it, and it played beautifully right away.  So I let it replay over and over for the next day and a half and it continued to play without problems.  Then, I switched back to my usual 44.1kHz files and they are playing good as well ... at least so far.  I'll try what you have suggested, but I won,t be able to do that for the next few days as I have to do the work thing.  I should be able to try that maybe Wednesday or Thursday and I'll let you know how it comes out.  It will be interesting to find out what JRiver 'sees'.  In the mean time, I'm continuing the burn-in as my system is playing non-stop and I probably have about 400 hours or so right now.  I'll have to look at my notes at home to get an accurate count.


----------



## PeterCraig

Taking burn in notes. Sounds like a man after my own heart 👍


----------



## ddpete

ddpete said:


> I have tried one of the 48kHz family files.  I found that one of my files was 96kHz.  I started it, and it played beautifully right away.  So I let it replay over and over for the next day and a half and it continued to play without problems.  Then, I switched back to my usual 44.1kHz files and they are playing good as well ... at least so far.  I'll try what you have suggested, but I won,t be able to do that for the next few days as I have to do the work thing.  I should be able to try that maybe Wednesday or Thursday and I'll let you know how it comes out.  It will be interesting to find out what JRiver 'sees'.  In the mean time, I'm continuing the burn-in as my system is playing non-stop and I probably have about 400 hours or so right now.  I'll have to look at my notes at home to get an accurate count.


One quick thing I just thought of.  I wont be able to connect my DAC to JRiver directly as the DAC has no USB input and my server only has USB output (hence the need for the DI).  I could connect the DAC to JRiver thru my M2Tech HiFace, but that's as close to direct connection as I could do.


----------



## ddpete

PeterCraig said:


> Taking burn in notes. Sounds like a man after my own heart 👍


Thanks.  OK, you caught me.  I'm a quant who hates to give up.  I need to keep track of where I've been so that I can form a better idea of where I need to go ... or something like that


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I mentioned upthread a few times that if you use software volume control you're not bitperfect. And this is a possible source of noise.

So, I won't mention it again until next time


----------



## ddpete

gimmeheadroom said:


> I mentioned upthread a few times that if you use software volume control you're not bitperfect. And this is a possible source of noise.
> 
> So, I won't mention it again until next time


Yes, you did mention that.  And after reading what you had written, I unchecked the box on JRiver for using the volume control.  So now, there is no volume control on JRiver.  The bits come out unencumbered, as it were.  Thank you.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 12, 2022)

A fact that 48k playback is immune to the SQ degradation point to the 44.1kHz family oscilator. @ddpete. Keep fingers crossing, but I know that a nominal oscilator long frequency drift is like in standard oscilators, it doesn't change much during extended burnin period. Keep it powering on, but I suggest to contact right now a DAC vendor asking for a firmware upgrade relaxing PLL locking range. From the Audio GD side a solution would be replacing oscilator by a repair workshop having SMD rework tools. More costly than firmware upgrade, but cheaper than sending back to China.


----------



## PeterCraig

This is reading like a detective novel


----------



## gimmeheadroom

PeterCraig said:


> This is reading like a detective novel


@sajunky usually nails it. I have the popcorn here on the table


----------



## ddpete

sajunky said:


> A fact that 48k playback is immune to the SQ degradation point to the 44.1kHz family oscilator. @ddpete. Keep fingers crossing, but I know that a nominal oscilator long frequency drift is like in standard oscilators, it doesn't change much during extended burnin period. Keep it powering on, but I suggest to contact right now a DAC vendor asking for a firmware upgrade relaxing PLL locking range. From the Audio GD side a solution would be replacing oscilator by a repair workshop having SMD rework tools. More costly than firmware upgrade, but cheaper than sending back to China.


Thank you for your very informative reply.  I think I understand some of what you are recommending and it seems to make sense (as far as I know).  Do you propose that I modify both the DAC and the DI?  Or do I just need to modify one of these?


----------



## ddpete

gimmeheadroom said:


> @sajunky usually nails it. I have the popcorn here on the table


Popcorn?? We're relying on you for the beer!!


----------



## sajunky

ddpete said:


> Do you propose that I modify both the DAC and the DI? Or do I just need to modify one of these?


I am sorry, suggesting firmware upgrade was a mistake. There no programable devices in Mojo DAC like microprocessors, FPGAs, everything is made using core logic hardware, also S/PDIF decoder looks custom made. There is no switch to extend locking range. Email them and ask what they suggest.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

ddpete said:


> Popcorn?? We're relying on you for the beer!!


Everybody's invited


----------



## maellen

Planning to get DI-20HE. My current setup is Bluesound Node 2i > coax > R1 (2018). Just a simple chain. I use for Tidal mostly but not bothered with MQA

Been reading the whole 218 pages for days & I remember there are some users having issues with DI-20/20HE coax input from their source device?

So how about coax from Node 2i into the DI-20/20HE? Anyone with specific experience can provide feedback? Any issues encountered? Thanks.

My planned setup would be Node2i > coax > DI-20HE > i2s > R1


----------



## sajunky

If anyone has problem with DI-20 locking to the S/PDIF, you can contact me, I will offer to exchange for my Douk Audio U2 Pro .


----------



## gimmeheadroom

That looks awfully identical to the Matrix-branded one. I guess one assembly line makes everything in China, the only guy we can trust makes his own gear is our Kingwa


----------



## ddpete

sajunky said:


> I am sorry, suggesting firmware upgrade was a mistake. There no programable devices in Mojo DAC like microprocessors, FPGAs, everything is made using core logic hardware, also S/PDIF decoder looks custom made. There is no switch to extend locking range. Email them and ask what they suggest.


OK, thanks.  I'll do that and let you know what their reply is.


----------



## bodiebill2

maellen said:


> Planning to get DI-20HE. My current setup is Bluesound Node 2i > coax > R1 (2018). Just a simple chain. I use for Tidal mostly but not bothered with MQA
> 
> Been reading the whole 218 pages for days & I remember there are some users having issues with DI-20/20HE coax input from their source device?
> 
> ...



My answer -- after having used the DI-20 for approx. 6 months -- maybe a bit vague, but for what it is worth...

From the start I had tiny glitches using coax. This became less as time passed but never fully disappeared. I am now using firmware 4.075 as this seems to have the least problems. The glitches do not really bother me as they are minuscule and rare. For me the SQ benefit far outweighs it. I think much of the SQ improvement is the result of reclocking (I have attached an Afterdark Emperor Double Crown 75 Ohm 10MHz reference clock to the DI-20HE), and I have the impression that the glitches are clocking related. A more refined system may also be more vulnerable.

Having said that, I never experienced these glitches with the usb input.

Lately I am using two sources:
(1) Pi2AES with GentooPlayer & GMediaRender > coax (for PCM)
(2) NUC with wtfplay > usb (for DSD256 and DSD512)
both output via I2S to a Holo Audio Spring 3 DAC.
I noticed that after switching between sources I sometimes get a mid-high beep which is solved after turning off and on the DI-20HE. Another clocking aberration?
Anyone recognizes this?

And a final question: can it hurt to leave the usb and coax cables both attached or is it better to remove the one that is not currently used?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I remain unclear whether the DI-20 reclocks or not. I was under the impression it does not. It might synchronize S/PDIF input with internal clocks, but if we consider that reclocking is stripping the embedded clock signal and replacing it, I think the DI-20 does not do that. Would appreciate any clarification on exactly what the DI-20 does and does not do.


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> I remain unclear whether the DI-20 reclocks or not. I was under the impression it does not. It might synchronize S/PDIF input with internal clocks, but if we consider that reclocking is stripping the embedded clock signal and replacing it, I think the DI-20 does not do that. Would appreciate any clarification on exactly what the DI-20 does and does not do.



You may be right that strictly speaking the DI-20(HE) is not a reclocker (in spite of what is said on the MagnaHifi website). However it does improve things in the time domain, f.i. using a high speed isolator, parallel/serial transmit options, FPGA, clock time management and (optional) external reference clock. So maybe I should have said 'clocking' instead of 'reclocking' in my post above.


----------



## sajunky

bodiebill2 said:


> And a final question: can it hurt to leave the usb and coax cables both attached or is it better to remove the one that is not currently used?


I would keep only one plugged in the same time. A reason is that any surface area between these two cables is catching EMI from the air. A current start circulating on the ground/shield of these two cables, creating voltage difference on the ground. If you want to keep both cables plugged in the same time, attach a single ferrite clamp on both cables thighting them up together.

As for reclocking, Kingwa policy is to not reclock if not neccessary. USB port is fully asynchronous, it is not broken on the galvanic isolator, as is bidirectional. It means that a clock is delivered directly from a pair of internal oscilators, there is no reclocking. S/PDIF clock is following the input using a top quality industry chip with digital PLL. DI-20 has introduced a new intelligent clock synchronisation method with this source (later adopted by all DACs mk2 versions). Technically it is reclocking with use of internal oscilators, but without deploying of PLL or ASRC, it is what I read from a website. It shouldn't generate clicks. I understand it is a method of adding or removing samples to/from FIFO on silent parts only to avoid clicks.


----------



## Articnoise

gimmeheadroom said:


> I remain unclear whether the DI-20 reclocks or not. I was under the impression it does not. It might synchronize S/PDIF input with internal clocks, but if we consider that reclocking is stripping the embedded clock signal and replacing it, I think the DI-20 does not do that. Would appreciate any clarification on exactly what the DI-20 does and does not do.



It's a digital to digital converter. Meaning that it converts one type of digital interface (USB for exempel) to another digital interface (S/PDIF for exempel). In the process the digital signal is clocked, so yes practically speaking the DI20 does reclock, i.e takes the USB signal and completely regenerates it. The trick is to regenerate a cleaner digital signal with better signal integrity on the output (clean side) than on the input (dirty side).


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Articnoise said:


> It's a digital to digital converter. Meaning that it converts one type of digital interface (USB for exempel) to another digital interface (S/PDIF for exempel). In the process the digital signal is clocked, so yes practically speaking the DI20 does reclock, i.e takes the USB signal and completely regenerates it. The trick is to regenerate a cleaner digital signal with better signal integrity on the output (clean side) than on the input (dirty side).



Regenerating a USB signal is not called reclocking. Reclocking has a working definition of stripping the incoming clock signal and replacing it and there are devices that do that. So we should be clear whether the DI-20 does that or not, hence my question. Aside from @sajunky answer we don't have any facts here.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> DI-20 has introduced a new intelligent clock synchronisation method with this source (later adopted by all DACs mk2 versions). Technically it is reclocking with use of internal oscilators, but without deploying of PLL or ASRC, it is what I read from a website.



It's interesting that my TASCAM CD recorder cannot lock on the AES/EBU signal out of my DI-20, but when I connect the Mutec MC-3+ USB between the DI-20 and the TASCAM, the TASCAM does lock. I don't know what's going on, but it suggested to me the DI-20 is not reclocking at all or this problem shouldn't arise.


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> It's interesting that my TASCAM CD recorder cannot lock on the AES/EBU signal out of my DI-20, but when I connect the Mutec MC-3+ USB between the DI-20 and the TASCAM, the TASCAM does lock. I don't know what's going on, but it suggested to me the DI-20 is not reclocking at all or this problem shouldn't arise.


Explanation is wrong. Tascam is not locking, as their PLL loop is tuned to tight (oscilator frequency on DI-20 is out of range), similar to the two other devices reported very recently. This leads to the conclusion that these Accusilicon oscilators have nonstandard tolerance of a nominal frequency. It should be brought to Kingwa asking whether manual selection of oscilators is feasible. 

From your side you can check whether Tascam is locking to a different sampling rate family (where a different oscilator is active), it would be interesting to compare results.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> Explanation is wrong. Tascam is not locking, as their PLL loop is tuned to tight (oscilator frequency on DI-20 is out of range), similar to the two other devices reported very recently. This leads to the conclusion that these Accusilicon oscilators have nonstandard tolerance of a nominal frequency. It should be brought to Kingwa asking whether manual selection of oscilators is feasible.
> 
> From your side you can check whether Tascam is locking to a different sampling rate family (where a different oscilator is active), it would be interesting to compare results.


Thanks, this is interesting and it is a good reason for everyone to post their results here where somebody can notice a trend 

I think I cannot help using this device, unfortunately, because it's a CD recorder. I have to double check if it can write BWF at 48 KHz but I believe it is limited to standard Redbook.


----------



## Articnoise

gimmeheadroom said:


> Regenerating a USB signal is not called reclocking. Reclocking has a working definition of stripping the incoming clock signal and replacing it and there are devices that do that. So we should be clear whether the DI-20 does that or not, hence my question. Aside from @sajunky answer we don't have any facts here.



Why ask a question if you think you already know the answer? 

DI20 is a DDC and reclock just like GAIA https://www.denafrips.com/gaia and regenerates the USB signal just like PhoenixUSB Reclocker https://innuos.com/phoenix-usb/ or ISO REGEN https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen


----------



## sajunky (Feb 15, 2022)

Articnoise said:


> DI20 is a DDC and reclock just like GAIA https://www.denafrips.com/gaia and regenerates the USB signal just like PhoenixUSB Reclocker https://innuos.com/phoenix-usb/ or ISO REGEN https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen


You can't say like Gaia, each vendor use their own methods. And for sure it doesn't regenerate USB signal, it is not neccessary with asynchronous transmission. I wrote how it works on USB few posts above. GAIA DOES even if not neccessary, DI-20 do not.


----------



## slazhx

bodiebill2 said:


> My answer -- after having used the DI-20 for approx. 6 months -- maybe a bit vague, but for what it is worth...
> 
> From the start I had tiny glitches using coax. This became less as time passed but never fully disappeared. I am now using firmware 4.075 as this seems to have the least problems. The glitches do not really bother me as they are minuscule and rare. For me the SQ benefit far outweighs it. I think much of the SQ improvement is the result of reclocking (I have attached an Afterdark Emperor Double Crown 75 Ohm 10MHz reference clock to the DI-20HE), and I have the impression that the glitches are clocking related. A more refined system may also be more vulnerable.
> 
> ...



Sorry to be off-topic but would you please share experience and maybe your impression about Afterdark Clock?

I own R7HE with DI20HE and now interested in going further with the master clock. Cybershaft and Mutec REF10 are too expensive for me. I am wondering clock from Afterdark can give big improvement and worth the money. If so, I might need three output channels (clock) for R7HE, DI20HE and Sotm sms-200 streamer that all have input clock channel.

Thank you.


----------



## bodiebill2

arayasg said:


> Sorry to be off-topic but would you please share experience and maybe your impression about Afterdark Clock?
> 
> I own R7HE with DI20HE and now interested in going further with the master clock. Cybershaft and Mutec REF10 are too expensive for me. I am wondering clock from Afterdark can give big improvement and worth the money. If so, I might need three output channels (clock) for R7HE, DI20HE and Sotm sms-200 streamer that all have input clock channel.
> 
> Thank you.



The Afterdark clock makes a subtle but positive difference and I would not want to be without it. I only wish it had more than one 10 MHz output, especially as I today I bought a 2nd hand SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo with 75 Ohm clock option. I also have an Aune XC1 reference clock with 4 outputs (2 sine, 2 square) so I guess I will try that for both the DI-20HE and the SMS-200. The Aune is a much cheaper clock, but we will see... To be continued...


----------



## PeterCraig

Yes I would like to hear from more clock owners as I am researching this right now. I am not thinking Afterdark price range at this time. So any less expensive options please chime in also.

Plus your linear power supply choices for the clock. These are a bit pricey too. I'm leaning towards Jay's Audio at this time.


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## higginsd (Feb 17, 2022)

PeterCraig said:


> Yes I would like to hear from more clock owners as I am researching this right now. I am not thinking Afterdark price range at this time. So any less expensive options please chime in also.
> 
> Plus your linear power supply choices for the clock. These are a bit pricey too. I'm leaning towards Jay's Audio at this time.


I'm using a Teac CG-10M as masterclock. It has 4 outputs and already a linear power supply inside.

There are not much informations available upon the used OCXO and other technical specs. It looks great from outside and has a nice analog meter about the oven status.

For me it works great and offers a slightly but hearable difference in stage and details. I connected it to my Etherregen switch and to my DI20-HE.

The 4 outputs are 50 ohms, so you have to be careful to choose devices which support 50 ohms 10MHz input! Some devices are configurable to 50 ohms or without internal termination (Mutec MC3+), some can be ordered with 50 ohms support and some can be modified. Inside my Etherregen I removed the soldered 75 ohms termination resistor at the BNC input and I ordered my DI20-HE as 50 ohms version.

Without an internal termination you have to terminate the connection from outside by using a BNC T-adapter and a 50 ohms BNC resistor. Use certified 50 ohms cables and high quality BNC parts!

For a more DIY solution look for the NeutronStar3 OCXO boards. But there is still a lot of work to do after buying  this board.

Shop


----------



## gimmeheadroom

higginsd said:


> I'm using a Teac CG-10M as masterclock. It has 4 outputs and already a linear power supply inside.
> 
> There are not much informations available upon the used OCXO and other technical specs. It looks great from outside and has a nice analog meter about the oven status.
> 
> ...


I think the MC-3+ and all Mutec boxes except for the REF10 use 75 ohms for everything. There is no 50 ohm connection on any Mutec that I know of.

50 ohm connections are unheard of in Pro Audio. I don't know why makers of hifi gear chose 50 ohm since 75 ohm has long been the standard.


----------



## bodiebill2

I like it that the DI-20(HE) judges the connection with the external master clock and warns if there is no lock ('FAILED').

Slightly off topic, but I am hoping that @sajunky may have an answer:
When I connect the master clock (either the Aune XC1 or the Afterdark, both 10 MHz / 75 Ohm) to my SOtM SMS-200ultra Neo (with 75 Ohm clock input), nothing seems to happen, and same when I disconnect it. I would at least expect there to be an audible hiccup when the SMS-200 switches from internal to external clock or vice versa. Nor can I hear a difference in SQ. How can I be sure that the SMS-200 is locking to the external clock?


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## higginsd (Feb 17, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I think the MC-3+ and all Mutec boxes except for the REF10 use 75 ohms for everything. There is no 50 ohm connection on any Mutec that I know of.
> 
> 50 ohm connections are unheard of in Pro Audio. I don't know why makers of hifi gear chose 50 ohm since 75 ohm has long been the standard.



You can set the Mutec MC3+ to un-terminated by a jumper inside and then use it with a BNC T-connector and external terminator. It's described in the manual how to do.

I think the discussion about 50 ohms or 75 ohms is useless. Technically there is no difference, 50 ohms and 75 ohms are same in quality aspects. Of course you are right, there are more devices supporting 75 ohms, so it's easier for the user to go the path with 75 ohms.

But PeterCraig asked for cheaper alternatives compared to a Ref10 or e.g. multiple Afterdark Emperor Giesemann with additional external PSUs. Combined with multiple clock connectors because he has the need for more clock connections than just one. So I showed up two alternatives, the TEAC and the NeutronStar3.

That's all, I just wanted to help and no discussion about 50 or 75 ohms. If you don't like and think 75 ohms are more "Pro audio" then just ignore my post.


----------



## higginsd (Feb 17, 2022)

maellen said:


> Planning to get DI-20HE. My current setup is Bluesound Node 2i > coax > R1 (2018). Just a simple chain. I use for Tidal mostly but not bothered with MQA
> 
> Been reading the whole 218 pages for days & I remember there are some users having issues with DI-20/20HE coax input from their source device?
> 
> ...


But ok, let's talk about "Pro Audio". I think the DI20-HE is something like a"work in progress". I love it's sound quality, but I'm still facing heavy problems with the coax SPDif input.

In detail: I'm not able to play 192/176.4 kHz input stream via coax SPDif. My DI20-HE simply produces garbage with these clockrates regardless of using serial or parallel processing mode. It works with 96/88.2 kHz. But if there is a clockrate switch between 2 tracks and the new track is starting with some "high data load" e.g. a loud bass drum, my DI20-HE produces digital clicks starting at this point. It can only be solved but turning of power and restarting the DI20-HE.

I tried a lot of firmware versions - v3.93, v3.933, v4.075, v4.076 - but at least only the v4.076 is kind of "working". With the described error/clicks sometimes (once an evening or more). All other versions didn't really work and procuded a lot of more errors.

Kingwa replied to my mails with a simple "That is the signal level not enough high but not the firmware matter , we test that can support up to 384K." blablabla, sorry. The signal level of my SPDif source is working with all other digital devices I have: my DACs and my Mutec MC3+. If I connect these devices to my SPDif output they simply work without glitches and clicks, over many hours and days and weeks - with 192/176.4 kHz.

So I would say the coax SPDif input of the DI20-HE isn't correct aligned to the allowed input signal level specifications of coax SPDif (if signal level is the reason). All other devices work - the DI20-HE does not. Find the error.....

@maellen if you can live with these small glitches/clicks which possibly may also appear in your chain, the device is really good - regarding soundquality.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

higginsd said:


> You can set the Mutec MC3+ to un-terminated by a jumper inside and then use it with a BNC T-connector and external terminator. It's described in the manual how to do.



This is all true of virtually every pro audio device, and has nothing to do with 50 ohms vs. 75 ohms. It has to do with what is the last device in a clock chain or signal chain.



higginsd said:


> I think the discussion about 50 ohms or 75 ohms is useless. Technically there is no difference, 50 ohms and 75 ohms are same in quality aspects. Of course you are right, there are more devices supporting 75 ohms, so it's easier for the user to go the path with 75 ohms.



The difference is in interoperability, not quality. There are decades of 75 ohm use in pro audio and there are tons of devices and cables that use it. So it was a bad idea for hifi audio companies to go with something incompatible that requires adapters and new cables.



higginsd said:


> That's all, I just wanted to help and no discussion about 50 or 75 ohms. If you don't like and think 75 ohms are more "Pro audio" then just ignore my post.



You missed my point, which was not a qualitative judgement. Pro audio means something, it's not a matter of opinion.


----------



## sajunky

higginsd said:


> In detail: I'm not able to play 192/176.4 kHz input stream via coax SPDif. My DI20-HE simply produces garbage with these clockrates regardless of using serial or parallel processing mode. It works with 96/88.2 kHz. But if there is a clockrate switch between 2 tracks and the new track is starting with some "high data load" e.g. a loud bass drum, my DI20-HE produces digital clicks starting at this point. It can only be solved but turning of power and restarting the DI20-HE.


I see you are using external clock. Do the same happen when internal clock is used? And then, are the same sampling rates affected? If it is a clock related issue, it may unlock one 192k or 176.4 or both, as it is now handled by different oscilators. Level related as Kingwa claimes? It could be, as it is a typical problem in the industry. However a second issue give me a thought (and you happen to use a proper term), that it is a time allign problem: sampling at a wrong time offset. It must be something to do with the the intelligent clock synchronisation (without use of PLL), one of a strong feature of DI-20. It is apparent that losing synchronisation happens at the moment where DI-20 expect a longer silence, where a buffer under/overflow is corrected. What happen when after DI-20 completely lose synchronisation you start playing a sample with different sampling rate? Maybe you don't need to reboot DI-20 in such event. 

In such complex equipment like DI-20 in current production, it is always "work in progress". Lets hope that it will be fixed with next firmware upgrade.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> In such complex equipment like DI-20 in current production, it is always "work in progress". Lets hope that it will be fixed with next firmware upgrade.



I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with the DI-20(HE). It seems that everybody who has issues isn't using ASIO and has other strange setups. Have you noticed any trend? Aside from the AES/EBU we discussed, I don't see another pattern.


----------



## higginsd

@gimmeheadroom What do you want to tell? I don't really understand. Someone should not buy the TEAC clock because there are several audio devices which support 75 ohms as input for their BNC masterclock terminal?

Ok, if money doesn't count, this is correct. Buy a REF10 SE 120 for each device you want to clock external. Second best is buy an Afterdark Emperor Giesemann Eva plus e.g. a Farad Super3 PSU for each device you want to clock external.

All very good solutions and they will work with 75 ohms ootb. If you have a corresponding high end audio gear.

But @PeterCraig was asking for some less expensive options and I told him my suggestions. If you can handle the 50 ohms connection of the TEAC - which is for sure not possible in every constellation - it is a cheap alternative of you need several clock outputs for your devices. No more and no less.

If you don't want to use 50 ohms connections, have a look at the NeutronStar3 clocks. They are priceworth, but you have to put them into a case and add the connector(s).


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> I like it that the DI-20(HE) judges the connection with the external master clock and warns if there is no lock ('FAILED').
> 
> Slightly off topic, but I am hoping that @sajunky may have an answer:
> When I connect the master clock (either the Aune XC1 or the Afterdark, both 10 MHz / 75 Ohm) to my SOtM SMS-200ultra Neo (with 75 Ohm clock input), nothing seems to happen, and same when I disconnect it. I would at least expect there to be an audible hiccup when the SMS-200 switches from internal to external clock or vice versa. Nor can I hear a difference in SQ. How can I be sure that the SMS-200 is locking to the external clock?


Hi, don't you have to select it in the options?


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## higginsd (Feb 17, 2022)

sajunky said:


> I see you are using external clock. Do the same happen when internal clock is used? And then, are the same sampling rates affected? If it is a clock related issue, it may unlock one 192k or 176.4 or both, as it is now handled by different oscilators. Level related as Kingwa claimes? It could be, as it is a typical problem in the industry. However a second issue give me a thought (and you happen to use a proper term), that it is a time allign problem: sampling at a wrong time offset. It must be something to do with the the intelligent clock synchronisation (without use of PLL), one of a strong feature of DI-20. It is apparent that losing synchronisation happens at the moment where DI-20 expect a longer silence, where a buffer under/overflow is corrected. What happen when after DI-20 completely lose synchronisation you start playing a sample with different sampling rate? Maybe you don't need to reboot DI-20 in such event.
> 
> In such complex equipment like DI-20 in current production, it is always "work in progress". Lets hope that it will be fixed with next firmware upgrade.


Thanks for the hints, seems a good test idea. I'll check this evening.

@gimmeheadroom Yes I'm simply using SPDif and no ASIO or USB. I want coax SPDif in and out. AES/EBU and I2S output will be my next step after my DAC is confectionedv with these inputs by Canever Audio later this year.


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> Hi, don't you have to select it in the options?



Thanks, but no options that I know of in the eunhasu SW.
I have asked SOtM, awaiting their reply...


----------



## higginsd

sajunky said:


> I see you are using external clock. Do the same happen when internal clock is used? And then, are the same sampling rates affected? If it is a clock related issue, it may unlock one 192k or 176.4 or both, as it is now handled by different oscilators. Level related as Kingwa claimes? It could be, as it is a typical problem in the industry. However a second issue give me a thought (and you happen to use a proper term), that it is a time allign problem: sampling at a wrong time offset. It must be something to do with the the intelligent clock synchronisation (without use of PLL), one of a strong feature of DI-20. It is apparent that losing synchronisation happens at the moment where DI-20 expect a longer silence, where a buffer under/overflow is corrected. What happen when after DI-20 completely lose synchronisation you start playing a sample with different sampling rate? Maybe you don't need to reboot DI-20 in such event.
> 
> In such complex equipment like DI-20 in current production, it is always "work in progress". Lets hope that it will be fixed with next firmware upgrade.


So, I tested your suggestions. The same problems happen regardless internal or external clock. Starting clicks after clockrate-change followed by a "big data load" or better possible buffer overrun, complete garbage if using clockrates of 192/176.4 kHz.

If the digital clicks start, I can stop and continue play - the clicks remain while playing. If I choose another track witrh different clockrate the clicks are gone! Good hint, prevents me from going to the DI20-HE, power off, power on.

But at least the DI20-HE should be able to handle 192/176.4 kHz without digital garbage from coax SPDif. Shouldn't be too difficult to handle for a device supporting 384 kHz as Kingwa told me.

I hope a new firmware is coming soon and hopefully contains some good improvements on SPDif part! Last update to v4.076 is dated october 2020! Time for a new and better version.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 18, 2022)

higginsd said:


> So, I tested your suggestions. The same problems happen regardless internal or external clock. Starting clicks after clockrate-change followed by a "big data load" or better possible buffer overrun, complete garbage if using clockrates of 192/176.4 kHz.
> 
> If the digital clicks start, I can stop and continue play - the clicks remain while playing. If I choose another track witrh different clockrate the clicks are gone! Good hint, prevents me from going to the DI20-HE, power off, power on.
> 
> ...


A fact that permanently losing sync also hapens with a different clock source makes me think that it is a bug in the WM8805 chip, I think DI-20 use this S/PDIF receiver. I know this hint as it shows on my R2R-11 (using WM8805), but it is triggered by a Douk Audio U2 Pro which I know do not work on certain sampling rates properly.

I am afraid, in this case firmware upgrade would not fix a problem, as a fault is not in a core DI-20 reclocking logic. But please contact Kingwa quoting these posts, maybe there is some way to reprogram this chip. I didn't do myself, as I know that in R2R-11 the receiver chip works in a standalone mode.


----------



## maellen (Feb 18, 2022)

higginsd said:


> But ok, let's talk about "Pro Audio". I think the DI20-HE is something like a"work in progress". I love it's sound quality, but I'm still facing heavy problems with the coax SPDif input.
> 
> In detail: I'm not able to play 192/176.4 kHz input stream via coax SPDif. My DI20-HE simply produces garbage with these clockrates regardless of using serial or parallel processing mode. It works with 96/88.2 kHz. But if there is a clockrate switch between 2 tracks and the new track is starting with some "high data load" e.g. a loud bass drum, my DI20-HE produces digital clicks starting at this point. It can only be solved but turning of power and restarting the DI20-HE.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed insight.

(edit to delete remaining text, didn't mean to offend anyone here, apologies).


----------



## sajunky (Feb 18, 2022)

maellen said:


> Thanks for the detailed insight. So buggy, I think I will hold my purchase for now.


One clever guy like yourself is able to make such conclusion, but miss a point that quoted person is actually content with a quality of the sound.


We are all in pursuit of the best sound possible. It comes at a cost of limiting connectivity with certain devices, it should be known in advance to newcomers who look at a supermarket grade of products that would work in all devices around the world (even substandard ones), but sound quality is not a prime goal.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Feb 18, 2022)

Just bought the 50 cm version of this hdmi/i2s cable:
https://stordiau.com/products/hdmi-2-i2s-cable
Not the average cable to be sure. Shielding topologies can be tweaked in many ways.

First impression with the shipped configuration was: deep and dark sounding cable, but I will give it another week...


----------



## higginsd

maellen said:


> Thanks for the detailed insight.
> 
> (edit to delete remaining text, didn't mean to offend anyone here, thanks).


So buggy I wouldn't say. There are obiously some impacts at the SPDif part of the device, which can happen in some constellations. I can live with the "clicks" as long as the error appears only once an evening. But I'd like to use upsampling to 192/176.4 kHz too.

I bought the DI20-HE because it's the only digital converter device offering coax SPDIf input/output, AES/EBU output AND I2S output combined with external Masterclock input combined with an very good internal LPS. Before this I was using a Mutec MC3+ which was running stable and without problems for a longer time. But the Mutec not offers LPS and I2S, which is a future key feature for me.

@sajunky Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to forward this to Kingwa. 

Today I tested the Lumin app directly (without using Roon to my Lumin) and I heared single clicks from time to time during playback of tracks (which never made a problem from Roon). But no continuous clicking starting at the error impact.

Obviously there is a difference between streaming from Roon or streaming with the Lumin app. Strange things...


----------



## sajunky

higginsd said:


> Today I tested the Lumin app directly (without using Roon to my Lumin) and I heared single clicks from time to time during playback of tracks (which never made a problem from Roon). But no continuous clicking starting at the error impact.


Lumin has streaming problem. Roon just makes it to show up differently. This is how bugs on one side trigger bugs on the other one. Can you play in your configuration some local files? I remember it was suggested already.


----------



## higginsd

These all are local files, saved on a SSD inside my Roon Rock running on Intel NUC


----------



## markant

higginsd said:


> I hope a new firmware is coming soon and hopefully contains some good improvements on SPDif part! Last update to v4.076 is dated october 2020! Time for a new and better version.


I am also looking forward to the new firmware.
I use fw 3.933 (I like the sound with it the most) and when connected via coax, the sound degrades on FLAC 96 KHz / 24 bps files. Also on all tracks I hear a regular audio glitch after ~2:35 min. (very inaccurate). I wrote about this many times to Kingwa, he replied that they repeated these problems, they will fix it in the future, but now they are busy with another project. Maybe so, or maybe it's just words.
If you have problems, write to Kingwa so that he does not forget about us.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Question for those who have the HE version, how hot does it get? And is the heat mostly out the top vent or is the underside also hot?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

markant said:


> I am also looking forward to the new firmware.
> I use fw 3.933 (I like the sound with it the most) and when connected via coax, the sound degrades on FLAC 96 KHz / 24 bps files. Also on all tracks I hear a regular audio glitch after ~2:35 min. (very inaccurate). I wrote about this many times to Kingwa, he replied that they repeated these problems, they will fix it in the future, but now they are busy with another project. Maybe so, or maybe it's just words.
> If you have problems, write to Kingwa so that he does not forget about us.


You mean coax input to DI-20? Or coax output from DI-20 to the DAC?


----------



## higginsd

gimmeheadroom said:


> Question for those who have the HE version, how hot does it get? And is the heat mostly out the top vent or is the underside also hot?


It does not get hot, not even warm, it stays almost cold. The ventilation slots are at the top, almost cold too.


----------



## Baci

gimmeheadroom said:


> Question for those who have the HE version, how hot does it get? And is the heat mostly out the top vent or is the underside also hot?


Mine gets quite warm at the top. Haven't removed it from the rack to see how warm it is underneath it definitely creates heat.


----------



## PeterCraig (Feb 20, 2022)

Mine gets warm, there is noticeable heat rising out of the vents on top. But I do have it stacked on top of the dac with some spacers between and the dac also generates a lot of heat.

It doesn't get hot but it's warm for sure.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Feb 20, 2022)

I was thinking of maybe stealing my DI-20 base version out of my 2 channel rig to use for my headstation, and putting an HE in the 2 channel setup. But I have two Mutec boxes stacked on top and I'm wondering if maybe it's a bad idea. Anybody have an IR point-and-shoot thermometer?


----------



## Articnoise

higginsd said:


> It does not get hot, not even warm, it stays almost cold. The ventilation slots are at the top, almost cold too.



I agree my doesn't even get warm.


----------



## PeterCraig (Feb 20, 2022)

My thermometer is American. I'm getting 106 Fahrenheit or 41 Celsius over the vents.

But it is stacked on my Master 7 dac.

The DI-20HE will be moving to it's own shelf in a few weeks.


----------



## markant

gimmeheadroom said:


> You mean coax input to DI-20? Or coax output from DI-20 to the DAC?


Coaxial in, IIS out.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

markant said:


> Coaxial in, IIS out.


Thank you. Sorry to hear this is a problem 

I was considering to run a streamer into the DI-20 using coax. I'm gonna search this thread now, I seem to remember several people mentioning problems with coax.


----------



## bodiebill2

Mine is always on and hand warm.


----------



## markant

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thank you. Sorry to hear this is a problem
> 
> I was considering to run a streamer into the DI-20 using coax. I'm gonna search this thread now, I seem to remember several people mentioning problems with coax.


Let me explain further that the problems that I described are observed only with firmware 3.933. With firmware 4.075 and 4.076 these problems are not present, but I like the sound signature on 3.933 much more, the sound is more expressive and juicy.
Therefore, I think that the problems can be solved if Audio-gd finds time to release a new firmware and keep the sound from 3.933 in it.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

markant said:


> Let me explain further that the problems that I described are observed only with firmware 3.933. With firmware 4.075 and 4.076 these problems are not present, but I like the sound signature on 3.933 much more, the sound is more expressive and juicy.
> Therefore, I think that the problems can be solved if Audio-gd finds time to release a new firmware and keep the sound from 3.933 in it.


I see, thank you for the clarification!


----------



## comzee

Question about i2s compatibility.

I recently bought a Gustard X26 DAC, and a DI-20HE.
They should both get to me in the next few days.


X26 IIS pinout




DI-20HE IIS pinout




You'll see all parameters match up except one.
Pin 18 on X26: *3.3V/5VDC+INPUT (MUST GIVE)*

None of the DI-20HE IIS modes send any DC over pin 18...
Does that mean the two devices won't work together?
If the question above's answer is yes, is there any hack or workaround I can do to make them work together with IIS??

Appreciate any answers, thanks!


----------



## higginsd

Swap the pins in connector?


----------



## FredA

comzee said:


> Question about i2s compatibility.
> 
> I recently bought a Gustard X26 DAC, and a DI-20HE.
> They should both get to me in the next few days.
> ...


Check the Gustard u18 i2s definition. According to this, it will work. 

https://aoshida-audio.com/products/gustard-u18


----------



## comzee

To be clear, specifically this:

Pin 18 on X26: 3.3V/5VDC+INPUT (MUST GIVE)

DI-20HE states it does not send DC on pin 18.


Not sure what this has to do with swapping pins or U18….


----------



## sajunky

comzee said:


> To be clear, specifically this:
> 
> Pin 18 on X26: 3.3V/5VDC+INPUT (MUST GIVE)
> 
> ...


Correct. This question must be raised with Gustard. As @FredA linked U18 pinout, their own DDC provide NC on the pin18 (no connection), the same as DI-20HE and most of other I2S sources on the market.

Other than pin18 issue it is exactly the same.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 26, 2022)

There is interesting comment on the high-end thread that triggered a stir: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...hip-resistor-ladder-dacs.853902/post-16836137

 My opinions are not in line with a thread owner, a reason I cannot post in that place anymore and a toppic rather belong there, so here is my response. 

It is not only Audio GD having such problem. Chord is hiding a true reason for a Mscaller, others offer network streamers to pair with a DAC for a TOTL solution. A true reason is, such devices give additional isolation from ground loops, provide a clean signal together with ground reference that otherwise would loop inside DAC though a power supply. Plain and simple: with a gereral use of PC as a source and USB interface, it is a main reason for a DDC. 

In the contrary to the user expectations that triggered my response, it gives good referal for a plain DI-20 (non HE version). During discusion some users also pointed out that stacking DDC's is also beneficial. I must say that it depends on design, but it should work in all cases where external clock is shared with all devices in a chain (all DDC's and a DAC). Adding external clock should be always priority when deploying DDC.


----------



## comzee

sajunky said:


> Correct. This question must be raised with Gustard. As @FredA linked U18 pinout, their own DDC provide NC on the pin18 (no connection), the same as DI-20HE and most of other I2S sources on the market.
> 
> Other than pin18 issue it is exactly the same.


Thanks, that makes sense! Should work then. I'll update the thread with definitive answer once I get it in.


----------



## legarem

DI-20 Acusilon impressions

A month ago, I bought a second hand DI-20 with Acusilon to replace my Singxer SU-1 modified with Silmic II caps upgrade, soft recovery high speed diodes and a Belleson regulator. My dac is an Audio gd Master 7 settled in NOS mode as Magna recommended. I also use an USB Regen with Curious usb cables. The DI-20 was used in I2S with a Wireworld Ultraviolet HDMI short cable. Blue Jean HDMI and Apollo AV HDMI cables were also tried in the setup. I also tried SPDIF ACSS out coax with a Stereovox HDV2. 

My system is biamp with speakers which have a bipolar ribbon mid high driver. They are very high resolution speakers .

First thing I noted with the DI-20 is an over detailed sound which let me regret the SU-1. This thing is not sounding mellow. I read the 200 pages + of this thread to find an answer to my problems. I later discovered that S mode is mellower than P mode. I later tried the Blue jeans HDMI cable In the past, I mostly never used because It was too mellow sounding. With the DI-20, this cable tamed the over detailed sound but I lost space and the good image I got with the WW ultraviolet. The WW ultraviolet HDMI is made With silver clad copper wires. As the Apollo AV with have more detailed sound than the WW. Clearly for me, anything with silver gives me over detailed sound with too much treble but soundstage is great. I lately tried the SPDIF ACSS output with my Stereovox HDV2.  Before using I2s mode, I knew that Master 7 BNC input use Wolfson receiver which sound on the mellow side. With the DI-20, The ACSS output seems to be the best of both worlds.  Now I would like to try HDMI copper cable like the WW chroma or the Gustard HDMI cable which inspire me.

Finally, I don’t regret the DI-20 but when you already have a good tweaked system it can ‘change’ the voicing of your system. You have to be careful with the way you use this device.  

About my taste, too much systems now seems to add details like TV which have over real colors which is not natural.  When I listen to the music, I don’t like to receive needles in my ears even if I want to listen at high volume.


----------



## Jandu

legarem said:


> DI-20 Acusilon impressions
> 
> A month ago, I bought a second hand DI-20 with Acusilon to replace my Singxer SU-1 modified with Silmic II caps upgrade, soft recovery high speed diodes and a Belleson regulator. My dac is an Audio gd Master 7 settled in NOS mode as Magna recommended. I also use an USB Regen with Curious usb cables. The DI-20 was used in I2S with a Wireworld Ultraviolet HDMI ......



I think you may want to try the DI20HE, for a high resolution system such as yours, it can really benefit from it.


----------



## PeterCraig (Feb 27, 2022)

legarem said:


> DI-20 Acusilon impressions
> 
> A month ago, I bought a second hand DI-20 with Acusilon to replace my Singxer SU-1 modified with Silmic II caps upgrade, soft recovery high speed diodes and a Belleson regulator. My dac is an Audio gd Master 7 settled in NOS mode as Magna recommended. I also use an USB Regen with Curious usb cables. The DI-20 was used in I2S with a Wireworld Ultraviolet HDMI short cable. Blue Jean HDMI and Apollo AV HDMI cables were also tried in the setup. I also tried SPDIF ACSS out coax with a Stereovox HDV2.
> 
> ...



I also have the DI-20 with Master 7. Actually I upgraded to the DI-20HE but the DI-20 sounded good. Everything got more detailed and smoother as I moved up the DDC chain, especially the high frequency and I can listen very easily to all types of music at high volumes with headphones even. My long term goal was neutral and very detailed non-fatiguing sound with tight bass which I feel I have achieved. 

A short checkpoint to see if you may be getting different results due to something different in your digital setup:
1. Good cables with no power conditioner or electronic based power strip in the chain
2. I use pure silver HDMI currently for I2s input 
3. M7 with latest firmware updated 
4. PLL must be off via M7 jumpers
5. I set M7 to 8x OS. NOS seems to smooth for me 
6. M7 must be switched on first (next other gear) then the DI-20 otherwise the signal won't lock properly and you will have a fatiguing sound for sure
7. You probably already tried removing the Regen 

PLL off and power on DI-20 second. These are the two critical steps for beautiful music with the M7.


----------



## Jandu

PeterCraig said:


> I also have the DI-20 with Master 7. Actually I upgraded to the DI-20HE but the DI-20 sounded good. Everything got more detailed and smoother as I moved up the DDC chain, especially the high frequency and I can listen very easily to all types of music at high volumes....


On a similar note, I would suggest to remove any other connections to your Pre-amp which you are not using.  At least on my HE 9, I have to power off when switching from ACSS input from my DAC to RCA/Balance input. However, it does not sound as good as removing the unused connections from the back panel. ACSS connection between DAC and pre-amp sounds best in my system. 

Note #1 from Peter also makes a difference.


----------



## Jandu

gimmeheadroom said:


> Question for those who have the HE version, how hot does it get? And is the heat mostly out the top vent or is the underside also hot?



Temp is 89 F to 95 deg F, hottest is from the vent on top.


----------



## PeterCraig

Jandu said:


> Temp is 89 F to 95 deg F, hottest is from the vent on top.



Seems like mine is running hotter than others probably due to stacking.

I'm pretty confident it's not affecting the sound, have had overheating issues with previous gear. 

Will be "unstacking" shortly.


----------



## legarem

Kingwa wrote me that the DI-20HE would be unnecessary with a Master 7.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

When's the last time a manufacturer told you not to spend 1000 euros on his product? Kingwa lives up to his name!


----------



## legarem

PeterCraig said:


> I also have the DI-20 with Master 7. Actually I upgraded to the DI-20HE but the DI-20 sounded good. Everything got more detailed and smoother as I moved up the DDC chain, especially the high frequency and I can listen very easily to all types of music at high volumes with headphones even. My long term goal was neutral and very detailed non-fatiguing sound with tight bass which I feel I have achieved.
> 
> A short checkpoint to see if you may be getting different results due to something different in your digital setup:
> 1. Good cables with no power conditioner or electronic based power strip in the chain
> ...


I don't have the latest firmware on my M7 because I read that the latest one gives more detailed sound some complained after installing it. I kept the Regen with the DI-20. It sounded better with it. All my gear stays switched on every time. I think there's a jumper on my M7 PLL. With the SU-1, it gaves better results. It stayed as is with the DI-20. I will try the M7 with PLL off.


----------



## legarem

gimmeheadroom said:


> When's the last time a manufacturer told you not to spend 1000 euros on his product? Kingwa lives up to his name!


I appreciated his honesty when he wrote


gimmeheadroom said:


> When's the last time a manufacturer told you not to spend 1000 euros on his product? Kingwa lives up to his name!


I appreciated his honesty with this answer.  Anyway, I didn't want to spend the money for a DI-20HE.


----------



## PeterCraig

PLL off and DI-20 powered on last. I will be surprised if you don't hear a miracle.

And the DI-20HE makes a considerable difference especially with the high frequency. I have one ear very sensitive to high frequency glare so it is where I focus.


----------



## legarem

Jandu said:


> On a similar note, I would suggest to remove any other connections to your Pre-amp which you are not using.  At least on my HE 9, I have to power off when switching from ACSS input from my DAC to RCA/Balance input. However, it does not sound as good as removing the unused connections from the back panel. ACSS connection between DAC and pre-amp sounds best in my system.
> 
> Note #1 from Peter also makes a difference.


I have too much stock connected to my Master 1 to remove unused connections. The Master 7 is connected to the Master 1 with ACSS. XLR is second about sound quality and RCA last. I wouldn't keep the M7 with the sound it has when used in single ended outputs with RCA. I had in the past a Master 3 and sound quality rating was the same with the different inputs. ACSS is really great.


----------



## FredA

legarem said:


> I have too much stock connected to my Master 1 to remove unused connections. The Master 7 is connected to the Master 1 with ACSS. XLR is second about sound quality and RCA last. I wouldn't keep the M7 with the sound it has when used in single ended outputs with RCA. I had in the past a Master 3 and sound quality rating was the same with the different inputs. ACSS is really great.


With a name like this, i guess you are in Quebec?


----------



## legarem

Hi Fred

Neuville near Quebec City.


----------



## FredA

legarem said:


> Hi Fred
> 
> Neuville near Quebec City.


In Quebec City myself.


----------



## legarem

PeterCraig said:


> PLL off and DI-20 powered on last. I will be surprised if you don't hear a miracle.
> 
> And the DI-20HE makes a considerable difference especially with the high frequency. I have one ear very sensitive to high frequency glare so it is where I focus.


Thanks Peter. You're right. With PLL out, it's better.  Now results seemed better in P mode instead of S mode.


----------



## FredA

legarem said:


> Thanks Peter. You're right. With PLL out, it's better.  Now results seemed better in P mode instead of S mode.


Dithering off, os8 is generally the best with the m7. And using the hdmi in, but ideally with the aliexpress AVPlay hdmi i2s silver cable like many, including Peter and another friend, use with their m7. Very smooth sound. Add add external clock, and you get another upgrade.


----------



## legarem (Feb 27, 2022)

FredA said:


> In Quebec City myself.


Great. I would like to get your phone number if this is possible. You can email it to:


----------



## FredA

legarem said:


> Great. I would like to get your phone number if this is possible. You can email it to: legarem1 at videotron.ca .


I'll pm you


----------



## legarem

I will buy this AVPlay cable

As I have time to work with my system, I will try my Melos SE-75 tube Monoblocks to hear if they 'tame' the little hardness I have mainly with vocals.
They're Class A 75 W single ended monsters I refurbished, They have 4 x 6KG6 in triode per amp.  I went to transistors because their sound was too smooth.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Weird DI-20 glitch today. Powered up the fanless PC and DI-20, I don't remember which order but whatever muscle memory did, and the DI-20 settled into DSD 256 mode. Tidal thought it was playing into the DI-20 but no lock on the Mutec and no sound out of the headphone amp, so it was obvious something was wrong. Checked all the cabling, nothing loose.

Restarted Tidal several times, didn't help, restarted the PC, didn't help. Turned off the DI-20 and waited 30 seconds, power on, and back to normal. I really don't like gremlins / surprises. This feels bad.


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> Weird DI-20 glitch today. Powered up the fanless PC and DI-20, I don't remember which order but whatever muscle memory did, and the DI-20 settled into DSD 256 mode. Tidal thought it was playing into the DI-20 but no lock on the Mutec and no sound out of the headphone amp, so it was obvious something was wrong. Checked all the cabling, nothing loose.
> 
> Restarted Tidal several times, didn't help, restarted the PC, didn't help. Turned off the DI-20 and waited 30 seconds, power on, and back to normal. I really don't like gremlins / surprises. This feels bad.


Likely bad timing. I always turn on the di20he first. Then boot the pc. But i rarely turn the di20he off. Once a week max. Never encounter any issue. It's a good prcatice to power cycle the di and dac once in a while. I can help with sound quality (i am under this impression..).


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I usually turn mine on when I have some listening time and then turn it off before I go to bed. This never happened before, so it's a bad feeling. I hope it doesn't happen again.


----------



## comzee

I got DI-20HE today. I can confirm on i2s settings "2" it works perfectly with Gustard X26 Pro.

It'll take me a few weeks to get my head around all this, but I'll be posting a big DDC review to this thread.
DDC I have to compare: LynxAES16e (with PCIe box + iFi iPower X) || Pi2AES (with 5v power mod + iFi iPower X) || Singxer SU-6 || Gustard U18 || Hydra-Z + ZPM PSU || DI-20HE

DDC I don't own anymore, but will loosely compare within the review: Schiit Eitr || Singxer F1 || Singxer SU-1 || DI-2014 || DI-U8

Will give more details on DACs/Amps/Cables/Chain used I'll be testing this all on, in the review.

Teaser image below.


----------



## comzee (Mar 4, 2022)

I'm slowly getting my head wrapped around all these DDC. I have to say, this is my least favorite part of the hobby. This constant a/b is tedious 

Anyway, want to ask the group here a question. I want to make sure I'm not leaving anything on the table with my USB DDC.
I've never used a USB cleaner, does anybody think it's worth it to try one, to make my review better?
Thinking of this: https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipurifier3/

All my USB DDC are being sourced from an Intel Mac Mini (usb direct from Mac -> DDC, no funny business inbetween).

Thanks!


----------



## bodiebill2

comzee said:


> I've never used a USB cleaner, does anybody think it's worth it to try one, to make my review better?
> Thinking of this: https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipurifier3/



I can recommend the Audioquest Jitterbug.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 4, 2022)

comzee said:


> I've never used a USB cleaner, does anybody think it's worth it to try one, to make my review better?
> Thinking of this: https://ifi-audio.com/products/ipurifier3/


You don't need USB purifiers, reclockers, jitterbugs, as DI-20 receive data asynchronously, there is no added jitter. If doubt, read dCS rep post, it is said very strong. If you want to stay with iFi, Defender is more appropriate device. If helps, get a quality PSU, but it may help even with phone charger.


----------



## roni44

comzee said:


> I'm slowly getting my head wrapped around all these DDC. I have to say, this is my least favorite part of the hobby. This constant a/b is tedious
> 
> Anyway, want to ask the group here a question. I want to make sure I'm not leaving anything on the table with my USB DDC.
> I've never used a USB cleaner, does anybody think it's worth it to try one, to make my review better?
> ...


I had IFI iUSB3.0 between MacBook Pro and DI20 90/98M and didn't hear any difference, I would spend money on better cabling.


----------



## legarem

I use a USB Regen with my DI-20 and it helps. Previously, I used it with my Singxer SU-1 and I never thought it could do something with the DI-20. I kept it there with two short Curious USB cables.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 5, 2022)

legarem said:


> I use a USB Regen with my DI-20 and it helps. Previously, I used it with my Singxer SU-1 and I never thought it could do something with the DI-20. I kept it there with two short Curious USB cables.


An ordinary USB 2.0 hub does clock regeneration as well but it really helps when used with an external power supply. Clock regeneration does nothing on the short cable. No matter whether USB hub or other clock regenerators. It is something else that matters, so it is better to use the right tools.


----------



## FredA

I prefer the di20he without any usb reclocker but i use a streamer with a clean output, which makes a difference.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I run my DI-20 (base model) over AES/EBU into a Mutec MC-3+ USB. So I can compare DI-20 to R8 MK2 over IIS, to reclocked via the Mutec over AES/EBU to the R8. It's not a perfect comparison, but the Mutec seems to add some amount of air and clarity. I would say reclocking may help but it should be considered a refinement and as a complement to your gear.


----------



## higginsd

Hello!

I'm trying to use my DI20-HE  as input device via USB for my (testing) of an Antipodes S30 with Roon.

Roon detects the Antipodes, but cannot detect the Amanero combo USB, which is the connected DI20-HE to the Antipodes.

So no music is on output to the DI20-HE.

How can I configure Roon to detect the Amanero correct?

Best regards
Dirk


----------



## sajunky

higginsd said:


> How can I configure Roon to detect the Amanero correct?


Did you check whether DI-20 is seen by the server as opposed to Roon? Server has more USB ports and only one can output music.


----------



## higginsd (Mar 11, 2022)

Yes, the Amanero USB is seen by the Antipodes player. Of course I used the correct USB port at the Antipodes marked as "Audio USB":






But MyAntipodes says no player:





This is the popup in Roon audio device config with unknown device message:





This is the signal path in Roon if starting play, only shows "USB output":





I'm using AES/EBU as output from DI20-HE. Will try to use RCA.

The whole chain is syncing the clockrate according to the choosen file after click play in Roon, so DI20-HE, my Trinnov and my DAC all show the same clockrate. So the cable connections seem to be ok. But no music.


----------



## higginsd

Sorry, it was my fault. A wrong speakers/sources routing inside my Trinnov settings. 🙄


----------



## PeterCraig (Apr 5, 2022)

Took the plunge into firmware V3.933 yesterday. I'm usually a firm V4.075 believer.

Decided to install the warmer firmware and leave it in for a week. Maybe I'll get used to it, and even enjoy it I'm thinking. Other people love it, most people even.

It feels like I am going down a dark and dangerous path away from Neutral, had tried it a few times before and switched moments later back to familiar ground.


----------



## Don Quichotte

Hi! Anyone compared this Audio-GD to the Aurender UC100C? I have the Aurender on loan and I have mixed feelings about it when comparing the Aurender + Supra digital coax cable to the direct USB connection to my Accuphase DP550 player. Could the Audio-GD allow me to have the cake and eat it too? If not, any other suggestions below, say, 1200 Euro? Mutec MC3+ USB? Or simply try a better coax cable? (but the USB from the PC is yet another Supra, so the comparison to the direct connection should be fair - or not?)

Here are my impressions, copy-pasted from another forum:
"The Aurender brings a very welcome fullness to the sound, especially in the midrange. More tonal density, more "analogue" sound, closer to the real sound of the instruments and also brings the tone & timbre of the streaming content closer to the original CD as played by the same Accuphase player. Very addictive! BUT: along with these advantages comes a reduced sense of air, slightly less sparkle, the bass is comparatively more bloated and less articulate, the music "breathes" less, seems less dynamic and there’s less sense of space. Even the soundstage might be slightly narrower, I’m not sure. Not huge differences, but all together they create the feeling that with Aurender there is a more natural tone & timbre, while without it the detail, space and dynamics seem more natural."

I haven't posted on HF in such a long time, only lurking, it feels nice to be active here again!


----------



## lator

Don Quichotte said:


> Could the Audio-GD allow me to have the cake and eat it too? If not, any other suggestions below, say, 1200 Euro? Mutec MC3+ USB? Or simply try a better coax cable? (but the USB from the PC is yet another Supra, so the comparison to the direct connection should be fair - or not?)


DI-20 has better power supply than Mutec. Only alternative I could think of to replace my DI-20 with would be Innuos Phoenix but that only allows USB connection to dac and is way out of your price range. Coax with RCA-connectors is the worst way to connect digitally in my experience so if you have an alternative input with your dac maybe try another type of cable?


----------



## Don Quichotte (Mar 16, 2022)

The Accuphase accepts USB and SPDIF (optical and coax). My understanding is that in general the optical connection has the worst reputation. Between USB and coax I don't know which is theoretically better in my particular case, so I'm open to explore. But I'd prefer coax because my player exhibits a strange short (1/4 of a second or so) "bzzzt" sound once in a while, as if losing sync or something, while playing music using the USB input.  The music keeps playing but it's distracting. It can happen once an hour or ten times during an album and I've tried various USB cables and computers to no avail. The only two things I was able to identify that helped (but did not eradicate the problem, only made it less frequent) are playing high resolution music and using an iFi iPurifier USB (but I didn't like the sound, so off it went).


lator said:


> DI-20 has better power supply than Mutec.


Probably. But have you directly compared them? Seems like nobody heard the Aurender on the other hand, it's basically nonexistent on the audio forums, and has no review I could find...
Thanks!
P.S. How would you characterize the sound of the Audio-GD compared to skipping it in favor of a direct connection? I'm particularly interested in its tonal character.


----------



## barbz127

higginsd said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm trying to use my DI20-HE  as input device via USB for my (testing) of an Antipodes S30 with Roon.
> 
> ...


Now that this is working did the Di20 improve on the s30's usb?


----------



## lator

Don Quichotte said:


> P.S. How would you characterize the sound of the Audio-GD compared to skipping it in favor of a direct connection? I'm particularly interested in its tonal character.


It's difficult to say how much DI-20 is contributing vs. how differently my dacs handle USB vs aes or spdif signals. The difference is bigger with COS D2 than T+A DAC 8 DSD for example. If I change USB cable or USB card before DI-20 the difference is big so DI-20 seems quite transparent in between.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Don Quichotte said:


> Hi! Anyone compared this Audio-GD to the Aurender UC100C? I have the Aurender on loan and I have mixed feelings about it when comparing the Aurender + Supra digital coax cable to the direct USB connection to my Accuphase DP550 player. Could the Audio-GD allow me to have the cake and eat it too? If not, any other suggestions below, say, 1200 Euro? Mutec MC3+ USB? Or simply try a better coax cable? (but the USB from the PC is yet another Supra, so the comparison to the direct connection should be fair - or not?)
> 
> Here are my impressions, copy-pasted from another forum:
> "The Aurender brings a very welcome fullness to the sound, especially in the midrange. More tonal density, more "analogue" sound, closer to the real sound of the instruments and also brings the tone & timbre of the streaming content closer to the original CD as played by the same Accuphase player. Very addictive! BUT: along with these advantages comes a reduced sense of air, slightly less sparkle, the bass is comparatively more bloated and less articulate, the music "breathes" less, seems less dynamic and there’s less sense of space. Even the soundstage might be slightly narrower, I’m not sure. Not huge differences, but all together they create the feeling that with Aurender there is a more natural tone & timbre, while without it the detail, space and dynamics seem more natural."
> ...


I would say, if you have an Audio-gd DAC then get the DI-20. For other DACs, the Mutec is a good choice unless you want DSD direct, which the Mutec does not support. The Mutec has better connectivity in and out than the DI-20 and also reclocks everything. The DI-20 advantage is how well it works with Audio-gd DACs, and it supports up to DSD512 (future proof) and 384 KHz PCM which is better than the Mutec's 24/192. Use ACSS or IIS if you get the DI-20, use AES/EBU if you get the Mutec. All three are better than coaxial S/PDIF.


----------



## Don Quichotte

Thank you both. As I said above, the Accuphase has only USB, Toslink or SPDIF coax inputs - and I like it quite a lot, no plans of leaving the Accuphase camp anytime soon. I'll try to arrange for a 3 way comparison, Aurender vs. Audio GD vs. Mutec, and I'll post the results.


----------



## lator

To elaborate a bit more, brief comparisons with the following cables using JCAT Femto & XE cards as USB sources. Same power cords (Siltech SPX-800) and power conditioner (Burmester 038) used for both dac and DI-20.

JCAT Signature USB to DI-20, Furutech DigiFlux AES/EBU (xlr) to T+A DAC 8 DSD

Lively and addictive, effortlessly accurate sound. Conveys realistic recording space. Not too smooth, not too sharp. Best of both worlds. Elevates all recordings. My current reference digital source. Closest I have reached compared against a former ~15 000€ turntable setup. 9/10

JCAT Signature USB to DI-20, Furutech DigiFlux S/PDIF (rca) to T+A DAC 8 DSD

Elevated bass in comparison. Slightly compressed soundstage. Leans toward smoothness at expense of leading edge. Sound signature is present coloring all recordings. Retains convincing physicality and timbre of instruments. 8/10

JCAT Signature USB to T+A DAC 8 DSD

More ethereal in comparison, feels like listening a recording vs. live music. Rhythmically less drive. Soundstage lacking depth. Lower quality recordings diminished in comparison. Tonally greyer, even with DSD512 upsampling. Unable to compare DSD upsampling through DI-20 in my current setup (dac has no I2S input). I wonder how this would do with Innuos Phoenix in between. 7/10 (PCM), 7.5/10 (DSD)


----------



## slazhx

Speaking of which, do you normally keep DI-20HE on 24/7? From the AGD site, it is not necessary to routinely turn on and off unless there is a power outage or thunderstorm. Will this make the unit's life shorter by keeping it on 24/7? It is around 35c here in Bangkok.

Also, how long should we prepare the unit (from turning off) until it's ready in terms of SQ again? I hope it is not as much as a day like an external clock ...


----------



## PeterCraig

arayasg said:


> Speaking of which, do you normally keep DI-20HE on 24/7? From the AGD site, it is not necessary to routinely turn on and off unless there is a power outage or thunderstorm. Will this make the unit's life shorter by keeping it on 24/7? It is around 35c here in Bangkok.
> 
> Also, how long should we prepare the unit (from turning off) until it's ready in terms of SQ again? I hope it is not as much as a day like an external clock ...



What! No air conditioning?

I keep it on 24/7. I think you really have to for DDC and DAC. Takes too long to warm up. 

Once in awhile I will restart everything if something doesn't sound quite right.


----------



## Baci

Mine's on 24/7. But I also don't know if that's a good thing. It's well ventilated, but always warm to the touch.


----------



## slazhx

Maybe some of our headphoneus Supremus can suggest. Yup, I turn off A/C in my music room in the daytime (30-35c) and keep A/C on at night (20-23c).

I normally have it on 24/7 too but just want to check whether it's right to do.


----------



## roni44

arayasg said:


> Speaking of which, do you normally keep DI-20HE on 24/7? From the AGD site, it is not necessary to routinely turn on and off unless there is a power outage or thunderstorm. Will this make the unit's life shorter by keeping it on 24/7? It is around 35c here in Bangkok.
> 
> Also, how long should we prepare the unit (from turning off) until it's ready in terms of SQ again? I hope it is not as much as a day like an external clock ...


Similar temperature in Taiwan, I have mine DI-20 for long time now and kept it on 24/7, I do turn it off overnight once every few months.


----------



## FredA

I turned off my di20he at some point. Warm up time is not so long. The HE gears warm up more rapidly. The original r2r7 would take over 12h to get up to speed so absolutely had to be left on 24/7. No more the case IMO even with the non-HE dacs.


----------



## Articnoise

FredA said:


> I turned off my di20he at some point. Warm up time is not so long. The HE gears warm up more rapidly. The original r2r7 would take over 12h to get up to speed so absolutely had to be left on 24/7. No more the case IMO even with the non-HE dacs.


Warm up is one thing and stabilization another. Both important for the oscillator. But yes it does not take very long to get DI20HE to perform at the top.


----------



## FredA

Articnoise said:


> Warm up is one thing and stabilization another. Both important for the oscillator. But yes it does not take very long to get DI20HE to perform at the top.


When using an external clock, the internal ones do not even need to stabilize.


----------



## slazhx

Thanks for all comments, I will run my DI-20HE 24/7 and turn it off sometimes.

By the way, what AC cable you guys use with DI-20? I use the one from Audio GD. (http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Cables/PowerCablesEN.htm) Is there any cable worth upgrading with reasonable price I should try?


----------



## FredA

arayasg said:


> Thanks for all comments, I will run my DI-20HE 24/7 and turn it off sometimes.
> 
> By the way, what AC cable you guys use with DI-20? I use the one from Audio GD. (http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Cables/PowerCablesEN.htm) Is there any cable worth upgrading with reasonable price I should try?


It's not very sensitive to power cables. Audio-gd's cable is a good choice.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Mar 24, 2022)

arayasg said:


> By the way, what AC cable you guys use with DI-20? I use the one from Audio GD. (http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Cables/PowerCablesEN.htm)


I have a couple of those cables and I think they're sturdy and attractive at a fair price.


----------



## sakso136

Hi guys,
i followed this thread  with intrest in the past but left it cause i pulled the trigger on a used su1 singxer,my interest for the hi 20 was gone.now i m popping again for some help.
ok,as i told you i bought from a neighboor the su1 for a good price..tbh it s good.
lately,i donno what happened but stopped working.the blue power is showing on ,but it s not recognised neither by my streamer based on euphony os and jcat usb xe neither my macbook neiter my dealer streamer.
i dont know what to do… i read somewhere that i need to update the software but donno how to do it since it is not reconizable.
anyway this is part of my inquiry if anyone can help please let me know..
the second part is more interesting…….
my dealer this morning loaned me a mutec ref10 master clock to try with my etherregen switch.
i m using a topping d10s as ddc now,and i ve been not happy,not involved of my system lately….anyway.mutec is connected since 2 hrs now,and what i can say is,it is mindboggling addictive….my system jumped 2 steps up no kidding.
now that i m considering buying the ref10,should i go with su2 or di 20he or di20?
by the way i ve been using the chinese clock bg7 also ,the ref10 is a league up.


----------



## FredA

sakso136 said:


> Hi guys,
> i followed this thread  with intrest in the past but left it cause i pulled the trigger on a used su1 singxer,my interest for the hi 20 was gone.now i m popping again for some help.
> ok,as i told you i bought from a neighboor the su1 for a good price..tbh it s good.
> lately,i donno what happened but stopped working.the blue power is showing on ,but it s not recognised neither by my streamer based on euphony os and jcat usb xe neither my macbook neiter my dealer streamer.
> ...


DEpends on you dac but you can't go wrong with either.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sakso136 said:


> Hi guys,
> i followed this thread  with intrest in the past but left it cause i pulled the trigger on a used su1 singxer,my interest for the hi 20 was gone.now i m popping again for some help.
> ok,as i told you i bought from a neighboor the su1 for a good price..tbh it s good.
> lately,i donno what happened but stopped working.the blue power is showing on ,but it s not recognised neither by my streamer based on euphony os and jcat usb xe neither my macbook neiter my dealer streamer.
> ...


If you like the REF10 you could consider a Mutec MC-3+ USB for the DDC if you are not using an Audio-gd DAC and don't need IIS.


----------



## Articnoise

FredA said:


> When using an external clock, the internal ones do not even need to stabilize.


Not to debate, but are you sure?


----------



## FredA

Articnoise said:


> Not to debate, but are you sure?


Just based on what i hear. The fact that the di20he is just up and running and sounds good almost from the start. But Kingwa could be using the internal clocks to implement his digital pll...


----------



## sajunky

FredA said:


> But Kingwa could be using the internal clocks to implement his digital pll..


I am sure, he does. Some jitter of the internal clock is added to the output, but it is not in direct relationship, as PLL follows the external clock. 

The same situation is when decoding S/PDIF datastream. A chip that Audio GD is using is also deploying digital PLL and the oscilator can be a standard type. There is no benefit of using low-jitter oscilator in this place.


----------



## sakso136

gimmeheadroom said:


> If you like the REF10 you could consider a Mutec MC-3+ USB for the DDC if you are not using an Audio-gd DAC and don't need IIS.


I use abbas audio 3.1 se. Input on dac spdif only. No need for any sort of output except coax.i was thinking of mutec mc 3 also.


----------



## sakso136

the mutec mc3 usb is expensive also,so buying the ref10 + the mc3 will be an overkill specially with a out of use su1


----------



## Baci

I'm starting to think about buying an Audio-GD DAC to use with my DI-20HE. Looking I guess to use the i2S connection for optimal integration and fidelity. What is your favourite Audio GD DAC? Does anyone have a recommendation based on experience? I'm currently using a Musical Paradise tube DAC and the pairing is wonderful, but somewhat temperamental.


----------



## FredA (Mar 24, 2022)

Baci said:


> I'm starting to think about buying an Audio-GD DAC to use with my DI-20HE. Looking I guess to use the i2S connection for optimal integration and fidelity. What is your favourite Audio GD DAC? Does anyone have a recommendation based on experience? I'm currently using a Musical Paradise tube DAC and the pairing is wonderful, but somewhat temperamental.


Depends on the kind of money you want to spend. Coming from a tube dac, the HE7 mkii would be a great choice. Or master-7mkii for 1100 less.


----------



## FredA

Got a new psu for my Usbridge Sig streamer, which in turns feeds the di20he. This Zerozone:

https://m.fr.aliexpress.com/item/4001309236118.html

The Usbridge Sig is really an awesome value to start with. I tried many psus with it, including the Shanti. But the Zerozone sits comfortably on top. It is smoother, with darker background and better overall clarity. It is in part the o-core transformer but also the excellent regulation circuit, all discrete, and also the overhead, being good for 4A. Just love the sound with it.


----------



## higginsd

Hi all!

Does anyone know the DC output voltage of the normal DI-20 (non HE) power supply?

Another question: the SPDif input supports DOP according to the manual. If I feed the input RCA with DOP - what will be the output at the SPDif RCA out? DOP or PCM?

Regards
Dirk


----------



## FredA (Mar 25, 2022)

higginsd said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Does anyone know the DC output voltage of the normal DI-20 (non HE) power supply?
> 
> ...


5V There are 2 separate 5V supplies. Not sure for the second question.


----------



## DecentLevi

FredA said:


> 5V There are 2 separate 5V supplies. Not sure for the second question.


Hi guys, so I take it that's it's possible to power the DI-20 from a 5V supply? Would I need dual 5v DC power or just one? I have a very good DC LPS with supercaps that outputs 5V.

If so, I assume that would put the DI-20 performance closer to the DI-20 HE - even moreso the HE version would become unnecessary right?


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 28, 2022)

So folks, I've finally decided it's time to switch up my DI-20. I have the normal non-HE version with upgraded Accusilicon 90/98M and the sound is world class, basically leaving no desire for anything else... _when it works!_ You may recall I've been experiencing what appears to be a fluke issue (faulty unit maybe) with white hissing noise on startup that occurs randomly about 50% of the time and goes away after multiple power-cycles or toggling between bit/sample rate settings. I've done everything under the sun from swapping connections (direct to Windows laptop vs. with USB decrapifiers), uninstalling / reinstalling drivers both Wasapi and ASIO, updated my audio player software, tried all sample rate combos, and all firmware versions but it keeps happening randomly.

So I'm hoping a replacement unit may quell the issue. I'm leaning towards the HE version. Any consensus on how that version may sound different?

I'm also asking Kingwa about the possibility of adding a Toslink optical output type, IMO a main feature that has been lacking.


----------



## DecentLevi

Or what about another DDC, like a Singxer SU-6 or something from Matrix audio or something (forgot the name), or something newer? I've been out of the loop for a while on these.


----------



## DecentLevi

Also @801evan you have an interesting post here. Maybe you also have an opinion on the above ^ thanks


----------



## 801evan (Mar 28, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> Also @801evan you have an interesting post here. Maybe you also have an opinion on the above ^ thanks


There's some secret sauce to my chain that solves many issues that other products can't.

Usb purifier reclocks the zen stream then sends it to the cosemi optical cable. Cosemi then transcodes it from electrical to optical. Tail end of cosemi transcodes it from optical to electrical + some reclocking. Then purifier reclocks that for good measure then sends it to the dac. The idefender gives the purifier an edge via multi stage filtering. The 2 purifiers and the cosemi has a clock and clock performance is super sensitive to load stability and mechanical vibration. Bonus performance is the optical fiber for the data lanes on the cosemi cable. I can't take one component out. I've been spoiled by it. This makes my chain very sensitive too actually to a level of 'everything matters'. I wanna still put a ddc after that so I can use optical but I lack a multi stage power supply for such.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

DecentLevi said:


> Hi guys, so I take it that's it's possible to power the DI-20 from a 5V supply?


Certainly not without major surgery and probably not at all.



DecentLevi said:


> If so, I assume that would put the DI-20 performance closer to the DI-20 HE - even moreso the HE version would become unnecessary right?


Seems extremely doubtful.

Anyway, if you have an Audio-gd DAC and run IIS out of your DI-20 then best bang for the buck is the HE in all likelihood.

If you don't have an Audio-gd DAC (and even if you do) I can recommend the Mutec MC-3+ USB. I run my non-HE DI-20 into the Mutec and then into an R8 MK2 over AES/EBU. To my ears it adds some air and sparkle over DI-20 base model directly into the R8 over IIS.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 28, 2022)

801evan said:


> There's some secret sauce to my chain that solves many issues that other products can't.


It doesn't include DI-20HE, it is a main problem. 

Seriously, instead of using chain of reclockers, I would chose a good one like Mutec as it was suggested above. The alternative path is to maintain asynchrous data delivery to the DAC (or DDC), it is why both solutions @gimmeheadroom are optimal.

In your case I would try another solution with a minimal investment. In short, I suggest to cut ground loops at the source. Replace Ethernet cable connection to the zenstream (I assume, correct if I am wrong) with a WiFi extender on a short Ethernet cable working as a network adapter for zenstreamer. It is a key point. Like these. Plug it directly to the wall socket or your multiplug. Then on the USB cable you can add idefender with a good linear power supply (but not reclockers) between a DAC (or DDC), it doesn't break asynchronous data delivery. Sell or donate all other stuff you don't need.


----------



## 801evan

sajunky said:


> Mutec as it was suggested above.


Tried it...meh. just slightly improves timing. I'd lose in an ABX.



sajunky said:


> . In short, I suggest to cut ground loops at the source


That's already what the idefender does and does better than lifted ground couplers



sajunky said:


> Replace Ethernet cable connection to the zenstream (I assume, correct if I am wrong) with a WiFi extender on a short Ethernet cable working as a network adapter for zenstreamer.


Tried many solutions. Not good. Wifi is best. 



sajunky said:


> Like these


I have dedicated mains. Using that will just contaminate my mains



sajunky said:


> good linear power supply (


Already have ifi elite modded with silver occ. Better than hdplex, lps 1.2, farad3, 3 chifi lps,  and the hypsos. And it's not a linear power supply. 😉

Like I said, paring down makes it worse.

Next step is trying to add a ddc. I already have the src dx and topping d10s. Making dedicated cables for it. Then once that's done, I'll play around with a di-20 / u18. But I need the src dx / u18/ zen sig one as a baseline.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 28, 2022)

801evan said:


> Tried many solutions. Not good. Wifi is best.


Well, WiFi is the best, but not the internal WiFi. You missed a whole point. You should try WiFi extender, disable internal WiFi.


----------



## FredA

DecentLevi said:


> Hi guys, so I take it that's it's possible to power the DI-20 from a 5V supply? Would I need dual 5v DC power or just one? I have a very good DC LPS with supercaps that outputs 5V.
> 
> If so, I assume that would put the DI-20 performance closer to the DI-20 HE - even moreso the HE version would become unnecessary right?


You need a dual psu, with two separate windings at least and separate rectifiers. One 5v source is for the usb side, another one is for the clean side. Maybe you'll get close to a HE. Not sure.


----------



## 801evan

sajunky said:


> Well, WiFi is the best, but not the internal WiFi. You missed a whole point. You should try WiFi extender, disable internal WiFi.


Nope..Im running a custom psu with 6x lt3045 on the zen stream. These wifi extender won't have the same power quality and will just ruin it. I've already powered switches with the hypsos and it's 👎👎👎.


----------



## sajunky

801evan said:


> Nope..Im running a custom psu with 6x lt3045 on the zen stream. These wifi extender won't have the same power quality and will just ruin it. I've already powered switches with the hypsos and it's 👎👎👎.


Nonsence, internal WiFi is a reason you need so many devices. And you didn't try the extender yet.


----------



## 801evan

Already did that and powered it with Hypsos + dxpwr. 

Not recommended.


----------



## 801evan (Mar 28, 2022)

As you can see, I understand the limits of reclocking. Typical wired Ethernet (and added sfp+ option) has too much reclocking that may be same same different different and powered with poor psu quality will bring more problems than solutions. Each device the data hops on from modem to router to switch to sfp or whatever gets worse. Each stage, there is reclocking. My solution is simply have the ZS connect to the hotspot of my phone. There's only on device 'to hop' and both are wireless. I've heard the gains in this. On the other end though, I can't pare down my usb chain.

I have a wireless modem with 4g sim card and I'll try to see how that goes but I have a lonnnggg queue of cable and psu builds before that happens.


----------



## sajunky

801evan said:


> As you can see, I understand the limits of reclocking. Typical wired Ethernet (and added sfp+ option) has too much reclocking that may be same same different different and powered with poor psu quality will bring more problems than solutions. Each device the data hops on from modem to router to switch to sfp or whatever gets worse. Each stage, there is reclocking.


Nonsense. There is no reclocking on Ethernet, but asynchronous data delivery, similar jitter-free method like with USB.


----------



## 801evan

But each device has a clock right? So there u go.


----------



## sajunky

801evan said:


> But each device has a clock right? So there u go.


The whole connectivity idea is to not break asynchronous datastream delivery. In this way reclockers are completely redundant and the only clock that maters is internal DAC clock. It is DI-20 thread, I answer that way. Get a better DDC and get rid of all this unnecessary stuff.

A time for the music. Currently listening to
Iiro Rantala - Potsdam. ACT Music 2022


----------



## 801evan

It will still need a ddc. So after all that, a ddc will still help. Exactly why I can't pare down the USB chain. Then feed it to the ddc for more sonic gain.


----------



## sajunky

801evan said:


> It will still need a ddc. So after all that, a ddc will still help. Exactly...


True, a good DDC which do not reclock when not neccessary helps, exactly what I wrote.


----------



## comzee (Mar 28, 2022)

Quick question for anybody that has a DI-20HE, maybe you could test this for me.
Want to know if this is normal, or if I need to send my 20HE back to Kingwa for a look over.

I have the US 120v version, and after about 2-3 minutes of being on, it has coil wine (assuming from the class A transformer setup).
It's not that loud, but in a dead quiet room, can be slightly audible from as far as 6ft away.

If anybody tests their own unit for me, just put your ear close to one of the vents top or bottom, should be easily audible.

Thanks!


----------



## PeterCraig

That's terrible. No noise here.


----------



## FredA

comzee said:


> Quick question for anybody that has a DI-20HE, maybe you could test this for me.
> Want to know if this is normal, or if I need to send my 20HE back to Kingwa for a look over.
> 
> I have the US 120v version, and after about 2-3 minutes of being on, it has coil wine (assuming from the class A transformer setup).
> ...


The big transfo hums a bit here. Nothing major. Pretty common i would say with the di20he.


----------



## PeterCraig (Mar 28, 2022)

PeterCraig said:


> That's terrible. No noise here.



Ok so I did actually test it this time, got down to the bottom shelf, and yes there is a hum.

But I never noticed it before and I sit right next to my gear. Have to put my ear right up to the vent.

This is a guy who has returned many a noisy hard drive and has laboured diligently for a silent PC.


----------



## FredA

PeterCraig said:


> Ok so I did actually test it this time, got down to the bottom shelf, and yes there is a hum.
> 
> But I never noticed it before and I sit right next to my gear. Have to put my ear right up to the vent.
> 
> This is a guy who has returned many a noisy hard drive and has laboured diligently for a silent PC.


So far, as far as i know, they all hum a bit. The big transformer works hard. It does not affect the perf...


----------



## FredA

comzee said:


> Quick question for anybody that has a DI-20HE, maybe you could test this for me.
> Want to know if this is normal, or if I need to send my 20HE back to Kingwa for a look over.
> 
> I have the US 120v version, and after about 2-3 minutes of being on, it has coil wine (assuming from the class A transformer setup).
> ...


Is it a plain hum or something with a modulation?


----------



## comzee

PeterCraig said:


> Ok so I did actually test it this time, got down to the bottom shelf, and yes there is a hum.
> 
> But I never noticed it before and I sit right next to my gear. Have to put my ear right up to the vent.
> 
> This is a guy who has returned many a noisy hard drive and has laboured diligently for a silent PC.


Same here on silent PC and stuff like that. I just recently moved. At my new place, it's all hardwood floors, and the way I have it setup, was on the floor, kinda like 4-5ft away from my ears (hardwood floor reflects sound like a mofo). I did this because I like to run ultra short HDMI for i2s, and it's my HP rig near my bedside. From what you and FredA are saying, the hum I get is completely normal. As I said, it's very feint.

Literally anything going on in my room, can't hear it. But if it's a dead silent night, furnace isn't running, I can hear it just a bit.



FredA said:


> Is it a plain hum or something with a modulation?


Nah, just transformer hum, like you mentioned in your related post: "So far, as far as i know, they all hum a bit. The big transformer works hard."

This eases my mind, thanks for the input guys. I actually don't mind the hum, I can easily re-situate my audio gear to accommodate it being a bit further from my bedside table.
I more wanted to know if it was normal, and now I know it is.

Thanks!!

P.S. I'm still going to post my DDC roundup review, but it's actually hard to a/b DDC over and over (when you have 6 to a/b), and with moving and general life, it's been a bit delayed.


----------



## PeterCraig

I also use some high tech vibration isolators under the DI20HE. In the form of white draftsman erasers haha.

I'm more head fi not too worried about vibration from my desk top speakers.

I don't know if they assist with the hum but I think any type of isolation may help.


----------



## Zachik

comzee said:


> P.S. I'm still going to post my DDC roundup review, but it's actually hard to a/b DDC over and over (when you have 6 to a/b), and with moving and general life, it's been a bit delayed.


Which DDC are you going to (or already have) A/B?


----------



## DecentLevi (Mar 28, 2022)

801evan said:


> There's some secret sauce to my chain that solves many issues that other products can't.
> 
> Usb purifier reclocks the zen stream then sends it to the cosemi optical cable. Cosemi then transcodes it from electrical to optical. Tail end of cosemi transcodes it from optical to electrical + some reclocking. Then purifier reclocks that for good measure then sends it to the dac. The idefender gives the purifier an edge via multi stage filtering. The 2 purifiers and the cosemi has a clock and clock performance is super sensitive to load stability and mechanical vibration. Bonus performance is the optical fiber for the data lanes on the cosemi cable. I can't take one component out. I've been spoiled by it. This makes my chain very sensitive too actually to a level of 'everything matters'. I wanna still put a ddc after that so I can use optical but I lack a multi stage power supply for such.


Very nice! At first glance it sounded like an excessively long signal path with too many optical to electrical conversions, but not so much after I visualize it. You're like me, I'm more in the camp that multiple USB purifiers/reclockers, etc CAN Make a difference, and a longer signal path doesn't always mean loss. (Analog only signals are another story, mind you).

If I'm not mistaken, it looks like you're above mentioned setup isn't all that expensive, right? I saw Cosemi USB optical cables for as low as $40... Or am I looking at the wrong model? Also those don't seem to have an independent DC side connection, like the Monoprice USB optical cable does, so wondering if maybe that would put the performance at a lower tier than those?

For purifiers, you mentioned Idefender at the receiving side, but mind to tell me which the other one is you're using at the PC side?

Looks like you're on a good path man! I definitely recommend adding a DDC like DI-20, or maybe Singxer SU-6. My opinion is that not only do DDC's make a big difference on a highly resolving system, but you can really gain stages of improved fidelity even more so with adding both digital purifiers and clean  power to it. Not so sure how necessary multi-stage power filtering is, but I've got one single hefty 100-lb filter with eight outlets that I use for my whole system, and at least with shielded thick cables it does the job very well indeed. And almost certainly you well find another combination of purifiers or even normal USB cables, after getting the DDC.


----------



## 801evan

DecentLevi said:


> Very nice! At first glance it sounded like an excessively long signal path with too many optical to electrical conversions, but not so much after I visualize it. You're like me, I'm more in the camp that multiple USB purifiers/reclockers, etc CAN Make a difference, and a longer signal path doesn't always mean loss. (Analog only signals are another story, mind you).
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, it looks like you're above mentioned setup isn't all that expensive, right? I saw Cosemi USB optical cables for as low as $40... Or am I looking at the wrong model? Also those don't seem to have an independent DC side connection, like the Monoprice USB optical cable do, so wondering if maybe that would put the performance at a lower tier than those?
> 
> ...



Cosemi runs cool and you can ask for custom 1m /1.5m. shortest monoprice is 10m. The longer  copper lines affect sq. You must have it unfurled and not coiled. Cosemi is around 60-100usd.usb 3 AOC. Not the extender one. I make my own couplers using silver occ. Previously I was using Uptone.

I use idefender on both upstream and downstream. Multi stage filtering to power them  is a must. And I have dedicated line conditioners on top of that. 

All this is the USB chain and still necessary before putting a ddc afterwards. I need a ddc because the Soekris DAC USB is horrible and will only use vbus if I'm on usb in. External power 5v (multi-stage filtering) + toslink is TOTL dac quality. 

So far even using a silly topping d10s maintains the USB quality I hear. Though it's a bit edge and thin but the blacks and soundstage is the same. I can't say the same with matrix Xspdif2. I'm still trying to build a src dx cable where I don't need to use adapters. After that, I'll see how the di-20he fares.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 29, 2022)

comzee said:


> Nah, just transformer hum, like you mentioned in your related post: "So far, as far as i know, they all hum a bit. The big transformer works hard."


In this case it is not that a transformer works very hard, it is magnetic field magnetostriction effect (periodic expanding/contracting of the core). Hum is getting louder when a mains voltage increase close to the saturation point and a load is low. If you have power generator, you can adjust voltage to see whether it lowers a noise.

R-Core transformers generate little noise. In many cases we hear not a vibration of the core, but but interaction with the assembly point. In this case tightening a screw will help, there should be four screws mounting the transformer, two of them are marked on the photo with arrows.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> In this case it is not that a transformer works very hard, it is magnetic field magnetostriction effect (periodic expanding/contracting of the core). Hum is getting louder when a mains voltage increase close to the saturation point and a load is low. If you have power generator, you can adjust voltage to see whether it lowers a noise.
> 
> R-Core transformers generate little noise. In many cases we hear not a vibration of the core, but but interaction with the assembly point. In this case tightening a screw will help, there should be four screws mounting the transformer, two of them are marked on the photo with arrows.


Not easy to cure in this case. Anyway, it's feint.


----------



## 801evan

There's the ifi dc blocker that fixes tranformer hum.


----------



## DecentLevi

801evan said:


> Cosemi runs cool and you can ask for custom 1m /1.5m. shortest monoprice is 10m. The longer  copper lines affect sq. You must have it unfurled and not coiled. Cosemi is around 60-100usd.usb 3 AOC. Not the extender one. I make my own couplers using silver occ. Previously I was using Uptone.
> 
> I use idefender on both upstream and downstream. Multi stage filtering to power them  is a must. And I have dedicated line conditioners on top of that.
> 
> ...


Interesting and educational, thank you. Admittedly this brings up many questions, so feel free to reply by PM., but maybe it's better to post here for our knowledge too...

Wow, the shortest Monoprice optical USB cable is 30 ft? No thanks for me. What were you referring to by the longer copper lines affecting sound quality - I thought we were talking about optical cables. What were you referring to by "extender ones"? And what were you trying to by "couplers"?

The Cosemi USB optical cable with a USB purifier on both ends does sound like a good alternative to a Monoprice cable with clean DC power into it. And curious, have you compared it to any other USB optical cables, or how does it fare against regular USB cables sound-wise?

Did you mean you are powering the Idefenders externally? Maybe with a hack of some kind because it doesn't seem to have a dedicated power connection.

Keep me in the loop about your journey on this, and I'll post here too once I eventually get my DDC chain sorted out.


----------



## 801evan

DecentLevi said:


> Interesting and educational, thank you. Admittedly this brings up many questions, so feel free to reply by PM., but maybe it's better to post here for our knowledge too...
> 
> Wow, the shortest Monoprice optical USB cable is 30 ft? No thanks for me. What were you referring to by the longer copper lines affecting sound quality - I thought we were talking about optical cables. What were you referring to by "extender ones"? And what were you trying to by "couplers"?
> 
> ...


Usb Optical cables are optical on the data lines. But for convenience, the power and ground is copper lines. These are primarily designed for a office printer that's in the next room and hasn't discovered network printing yet. 🤣

Man, I've tried 3 or 4 brands. The OG is the Corning optical cable. It was the best AND usb 2.0 compatible. Monoprice is actually hit or miss sometimes with DACs. Thing is it runs hot. It does 15v in the vbus and that's why I've gone through 5 of them. And u was paying premium for used ones coz it's a dead product but....it was worth it? And no competition. I even modded it where I cut the power and ground and did a power bypass on the tail end. It was glorious!!! But that only lasted a few months. I couldn't do it on the monoprice and the cosemi....it can work on flash drives but not on DACs. So sad.

With 33feet/10m being the shortest for monoprice, one would likely have it coiled. So this actually affects the sound as it will have a induction effect. So I have it unfurled...but then that'll give an antenna effect. 😂😂 I have it stretched out like Christmas lights clinging to the wall...still better sounding than coiled. Then finally a couple years later I discovered cosemi and it was 1.5m on Amazon. That got sold out fast. So hitting their website, I got 1m. But the website is dead now. Cosemi is 5v on the copper lines...no idea how they did it. Both monoprice and corning is 15v and runs cool. Maybe the longer cables are set on a higher voltage. Oh and as proof of concept, when I modded the corning with the power bypass trick, I can keep the 30ft cable coiled. Lol.

Oh, I tried powering that monoprice optical cable... Adding idefender and powering that is still much better. Exactly why Im sticking to it even if I have a ddc. Idefender give you the ability to do power bypass via USB c. So I have custom dc to usb c cables for it and using multi stage filtering to power it. That makes a difference AND transport quality still makes a difference. That's the whole point. These are all still necessary and a prep to make the task easier for the ddc.


----------



## DecentLevi

Also has anyone here compared this to the Gustard U18? Looks like that just came out last year. It's the upgrade to their U16 and looks like a DI-20 HE replacement, not to mention half the price.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

DecentLevi said:


> Also has anyone here compared this to the Gustard U18? Looks like that just came out last year. It's the upgrade to their U16 and looks like a DI-20 HE replacement, not to mention half the price.


I have never seen anything from Audio-gd that isn't a top value. If something is half the price, I bet 100 bucks it's not a replacement


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## Articnoise

gimmeheadroom said:


> I have never seen anything from Audio-gd that isn't a top value. If something is half the price, I bet 100 bucks it's not a replacement


Synergy and preference are important aspects when it comes to summit hifi.


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## PLGA (Apr 1, 2022)

Hello guys
Out of curiosity.

Has anyone tried placing a Gustard U16 before an Audio-GD DI-20? I mean in the signal path.

It would be like this: streamer > USB > Gustard > SPDiF > DI-20 > DAC.

If anyone did it, how did it work out? Did improved the SQ? Was it troublesome?

On the other hand, the DI-20 has a master clock output. It it's fed by an external master clock, can it share the signal with another device like the U16?

I believe many of you have the U16 locked in a closet like me.


----------



## FredA

PLGA said:


> Hello guys
> Out of curiosity.
> 
> Has anyone tried placing a Gustard U16 before an Audio-GD DI-20? I mean in the signal path.
> ...


I sold mine. It drove me crazy. The output is a word clock. It can be used with  some dacs accepting it.


----------



## DecentLevi

801evan said:


> Usb Optical cables are optical on the data lines. But for convenience, the power and ground is copper lines. These are primarily designed for a office printer that's in the next room and hasn't discovered network printing yet. 🤣
> 
> Man, I've tried 3 or 4 brands. The OG is the Corning optical cable. It was the best AND usb 2.0 compatible. Monoprice is actually hit or miss sometimes with DACs. Thing is it runs hot. It does 15v in the vbus and that's why I've gone through 5 of them. And u was paying premium for used ones coz it's a dead product but....it was worth it? And no competition. I even modded it where I cut the power and ground and did a power bypass on the tail end. It was glorious!!! But that only lasted a few months. I couldn't do it on the monoprice and the cosemi....it can work on flash drives but not on DACs. So sad.
> 
> ...


Too cool man, thanks! Not wanting to clutter up the DI20 thread so I'll try & keep this brief. So you liked the hacked Monoprice USB optical cable the best but yours didn't last long? Looks like the Cosemi has an advantage over Corning in that it has shorter runs and only 5v power requirements, but which do you prefer (sound wise) after customizing the set up? 

For multi-stage power filtering, I'll bet that certainly puts us in our own class of unique, maybe the one & only depending on where you live. I'd imagine this would be individual filters for each device connected in parallel to a power strip all connected to the same mains, or is it more like with a main power conditioner feeding smaller parallel filters? 

I was mentioning that after getting a DDC your preferences for the rest of the chain may change. Swap out or remove a cable somewhere, add shock absorption dampeners, you may find new synergies in different ways than before. And of course not forgetting burn-in.

My own system is still in flux - I've got plans to upgrade my DAC and amp first most likely. I contacted Audio-GD about my basically defective DI-20 (upgraded version from 2020) but their main guy falsely claims it was purchased from an Italian vendor and to instead ask them for help.


----------



## 801evan

DecentLevi said:


> So you liked the hacked Monoprice USB optical cable the best but yours didn't last long?


It's only the Corning I can hack. But it has a overheating and reliability issue so they don't last long. Stock, the Corning is a bit better.



DecentLevi said:


> individual filters for each device connected in parallel to a power strip all connected to the same mains, or is it more like with a main power conditioner feeding smaller parallel filters


It's dedicated power conditioner to  dedicated multistage voltage regulators to each device. So technically you can still do a multistage filtering to a Spdif purifier after the spdif out of the di20he as an option.

I haven't found any setup where a ddc makes the ones previous to it obsolete. That's how I got into this mess. Galvanic isolation doesn't guarantee anything so listening test is still required. And measurements means squat.

If Audio-gd makes a dc input version of their ddc it'll be game over. 🤣


----------



## Maven86

Was just wondering if anyone else has a problem with the DI-20HE locking the bitdepth output to 32bit on OSX.  This is via usb out.

Tried using an ANK 4.1 (NOS) via SPDIF from the DI20 but all I get is static unless I upsample to 96khz on my iMac.  Would reinstalling the Amanero drivers on DI20 be a potential fix?


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## gimmeheadroom

Not sure what you're trying to do, or why, but S/PDIF is rated 24/96. Later implementations might support up to 24/192.


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## sajunky (Apr 3, 2022)

^THIS.

While a sample rate can be forced up a bit, 24-bit is a maximum for S/PDIF.


----------



## Maven86

gimmeheadroom said:


> Not sure what you're trying to do, or why, but S/PDIF is rated 24/96. Later implementations might support up to 24/192.


I guess what I’m trying to do is get a 16bit 44khz signal to my DAC.  I get the 24 bit limit on spdif, so I’m guessing it’s a 24bit/44khz signal being sent to my DAC when I try that. A format it can’t seem to decode so I get noise.  24/96 works though but I’d rather it not be upsampled.


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## gimmeheadroom (Apr 3, 2022)

Maven86 said:


> Was just wondering if anyone else has a problem with the DI-20HE locking the bitdepth output to 32bit on OSX.  This is via usb out.



The DI-20 receives input from the PC. It does not negotiate sample rates. It is not locking bit depth or sample rate, it simply decodes what it receives.



Maven86 said:


> Tried using an ANK 4.1 (NOS) via SPDIF from the DI20 but all I get is static unless I upsample to 96khz on my iMac.  Would reinstalling the Amanero drivers on DI20 be a potential fix?



If you hit the red reset button you may have wiped the Amanero drivers. I'm not sure if there is a way to determine for sure, @sajunky might know.




Maven86 said:


> I guess what I’m trying to do is get a 16bit 44khz signal to my DAC.  I get the 24 bit limit on spdif, so I’m guessing it’s a 24bit/44khz signal being sent to my DAC when I try that. A format it can’t seem to decode so I get noise.  24/96 works though but I’d rather it not be upsampled.


The DI-20 does not upsample or resample at all. But, Windows when set up incorrectly and MacOS often do. First thing is to verify your MAC is sending the right signal to the DI-20. You can rely on the DI-20's display for sample rate, but unfortunately the DI-20 does not show bit depth.


----------



## Maven86

gimmeheadroom said:


> The DI-20 receives input from the PC. It does not negotiate sample rates. It is not locking bit depth or sample rate, it simply decodes what it receives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, that's pretty much the gist of the problem.  I'm guessing it might be a driver thing because on my other DDCs or DACs via USB, I'm given the option to change both the bit depth and sample rate on the Mac's sound output menu.  However, on the DI20, I can only change sample rates, the bit depth is always locked at 32bit.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Hopefully some other Mac users will chime in.


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## sajunky (Apr 3, 2022)

I have a limited experience with MAC OS (only when friends are asking for help). It may be a case of a MAC outputing 32-bit floating format. Amanero receiver in DI-20 recognise the format, but it will just pass through without any conversion, it is illegal on the S/PDIF link. I remember that a relevant setting is in OS properties hidden in MIDI section. While typing this you wrote:


Maven86 said:


> However, on the DI20, I can only change sample rates, the bit depth is always locked at 32bit.


It is for me indication that output in MIDI section is set to the floating point, as it only allows 32-bit. Please check it out. Change to the Integer (or similar wording), it will then allow to set 24-bit or even 16-bit as you wish.

As an alternative the app (your music player) can use the "exclusive mode" or an "Integer mode" that bypass MAC OS sound mixer and settings in the MIDI section.


----------



## Maven86 (Apr 3, 2022)

sajunky said:


> I have a limited experience with MAC OS (only when friends are asking for help). It may be a case of a MAC outputing 32-bit floating format. Amanero receiver in DI-20 recognise the format, but it will just pass through without any conversion, it is illegal on the S/PDIF link. I remember that a relevant setting is in OS properties hidden in MIDI section. While typing this you wrote:
> 
> It is for me indication that output in MIDI section is set to the floating point, as it only allows 32-bit. Please check it out. Change to the Integer (or similar wording), it will then allow to set 24-bit or even 16-bit as you wish.
> 
> As an alternative the app (your music player) can use the "exclusive mode" or an "Integer mode" that bypass MAC OS sound mixer and settings in the MIDI section.


Appreciate the help.  I'll check when I get home and then report back.

*Update*:  So Everything is already set to integer mode on midi setup with no option to change to floating point.  I also tried using the exclusive and integer modes on Audirvana, same issue.  The sample rates will play natively depending on the song but the bit depth will stay locked at 32bit.  Tried these same settings on Audirvana using the USB input on my DAC and all songs play at both their native bit depth and sample rates.

I'm wondering if this was something that was locked with the latest Mac OSX versions as I vaguely remember being able toggle between these settings on my old MBP.


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## sajunky

I also remember such settings. Please post screenshots how your DI-20 device is named in Audirvana or a MIDI app.


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## Maven86

sajunky said:


> I also remember such settings. Please post screenshots how your DI-20 device is named in Audirvana or a MIDI app.


Sure thing.  First pic are the options with the DI-20.  The last pic is my mic but the options are very similar to when my DAC is directly hooked up, in that you have the option to change the bit depth.


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## sajunky (Apr 4, 2022)

This is really strange. Missing all tabs for settings. It looks like Amanero do not report its normal capabilities to the system. It is either corruption in the OS or in Amanero firmware. 32-bits format is appropriate for flashing new firmware. Are you sure you didn't clear the firmware?  If you did by mistake, a board is waiting to receive new firmware. Uploading new firmware can be done on the Windows machine.


----------



## Maven86

I kinda figured it might be a firmware issue.  I'll try to reinstall the firmware when I get a chance and see if that changes things.  Thanks for the help.


----------



## slazhx

Is there anyone who still has the download link for Quartus? I did accidentally delete it. The ones on Onedrive provided by Dacladder are already dead.

Not sure which version is good for Windows 10. Is it 12 or 16?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## bos3812

Hi arayasg,

I used this one but don't know if it is still working: 

quartus64programmersetup-16.0.0.211-windows.exe

I still have the installation files.


----------



## slazhx

bos3812 said:


> Hi arayasg,
> 
> I used this one but don't know if it is still working:
> 
> ...



The files on Onedrive are dead. (https://onedrive.live.com/?id=636DC4E8060D66A1!321&cid=636DC4E8060D66A1)

Would you please reupload it? I couldn't find this exact version elsewhere.


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## bos3812

I don't know how to do this exactly. Send me a PM with your email address and I will send them to you so you can upload them to the Onedrive page.


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## higginsd

Hello again!

I'm using a second DI20 (without HE) now for my SPDif output path. The overall sound - one DI20-HE on SPDif input path to my Trinnov and one DI20 on SPDif output from my Trinnov - is fantastic! A big step forward and the second DI20 is still burning in.

But there is a problem on rate switches with the second DI20. I'm always upsampling to 176.4 or 192.0 with HQPlayer. My first DI20 works fine unimpressed by any rate switch between 176.4 and 192.0 But the second DI20 in output path always struggles if the rate is switching from 192.0 to 176.4

The result is: I can hear the music playing, but there is loud acoustic noise in background. The noise stops if stopping play and continues after restart of play. It only disappears after switching power of at the second DI20 and switching power on again. This is reproduceable on every rate switch to 176.4

Switching from 176.4 to 192.0 works in 50% of the cases, but the other 50% show sthe same acoustic noise effect.

I'm using SPDif coax from Trinnov to the second DI20. My files are served by Roon and Roon is configured (in audio device options) to wait 6000ms before play after switching the rate to give all the devices a chance to perform a correct rate switch first.

Any ideas what to do?

Best regards
Dirk


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## tumpux

I won’t hold my breath since I am 97.2% sure that only one person in the world running that configuration.


----------



## higginsd (Apr 14, 2022)

😁 I'm 99% sure you are right. My ears say: it's the optimal configuration in my daisy chain and the sound is brilliant, highly detailed, analytic.

But at least it seems to be a re-sync problem on coax SPDif input. Again. I still hope anyone else was facing this problem and found a stable solution.

I have to say the DI20 is the one and only device - and I had a lot different devices in the past - having problems with re-syncing to a rate switch on SPDif input. Maybe because the focus is on USB input path, but other devices had shown me, it cannot be a unsolveable problem.

Kingwa only tells me, my SPDif signal is electrically weak. This signal is generated by the Trinnov. I'm sure Trinnov is above any doubt of generating a wrong or weak signal. They have not than 20 years experience in studio surroundings.


----------



## FredA (Apr 14, 2022)

higginsd said:


> 😁 I'm 99% sure you are right. My ears say: it's the optimal configuration in my daisy chain and the sound is brilliant, highly detailed, analytic.
> 
> But at least it seems to be a re-sync problem on coax SPDif input. Again. I still hope anyone else was facing this problem and found a stable solution.
> 
> ...


Do you use either the 4.075 or 4.076 fw? 3.933 can have issues with the spdif input.

I am not sure i understand your config.. One thing  is ovious to me, the di20he should put after the di20 in the daisy chain.


----------



## FredA

Make sure you use the right fw...


----------



## higginsd

Ah, ok, thanks! The firmware... Yes, I'll update to 4.075.

And yes Fred, I should put the DI20 HE behind the Trinnov. Thanks for the hint!


----------



## FredA

higginsd said:


> Ah, ok, thanks! The firmware... Yes, I'll update to 4.075.
> 
> And yes Fred, I should put the DI20 HE behind the Trinnov. Thanks for the hint!


I you want smoother, go with 4.076. On a recent di20, you most likely have 4.075. In fact, if bought after oct 2020, you have 4.075 unless a previous user has flashed something else.


----------



## FOUNDERZERO

PeterCraig said:


> FYI I have upgraded to Windows 11 a few days ago and no issues with the DI-20 driver.
> 
> Or anything for that matter.


Got my DI-20HE in today. No issues running the latest Amanero driver (1.067) on W11.


----------



## comzee (Apr 25, 2022)

I'm sick of listening to DDC.

*TLDR: *

DI-20HE/Hydra-Z+ZPM (pending more compare) -> Gustard U18 (maybe) -> pi2aes / Lynx AES16e (interchangeable based on preference) -> Singxer SU-6 -> Gustard X26 internal USB -> Schiit Eitr -> Singxer SU-1 -> Singxer F1 -> Audio GD U8 -> Audio GD DI-2014


*DACs used:*
Ear Dacute 192 (tube dac)
Gustard X26 pro (I bought this specifically just so I had a dac that would enable me to use i2s)

*AMPS:*
Elekit 8600S
Dennis Had custom pentode headamp

*Drivers:*
Mostly hd800sdr
I really wanted to spend more time with speakers (I own Lii F15 and Omega) but I just don't care, and might not for the next 6mo+
I'm completely worn out on listening to gear, and just want to enjoy music.
This makes this review basically trash, because without extensive listening to speakers the soundstage of these DDC is mostly lost on me.
As well as a few other aspects.

*Background:*
I was using pi2aes with 5v power mod, and was pretty happy with it.
As I've upgraded DDC throughout the years, it was all decent upgrades.
I was lead onto a Hydra-Z by a few audio friends, I waffled for about 6mo on it, and finally bought it.
Found one with ZPM power supply included (some people bought it without ZPM, and it can be used with USB power only)

I think people become interested (in my audio circle) with the Hydra-Z because Rockna Wavedream was a hot item getting much discussion.
Rockna's sister company is Audiobyte. They made the Hydra-Z back around 2014? Seemingly they discontinued it after only a few years.
You can only buy the "Hydra-Z" used now.

(side note: after years of making promises, Audiobyte finally released their "HUB" new transport, supposed to be nutter good)

Ugh, longed winded way to say Hydra-Z is amazing. Funny enough, if you do some google sleuthing, there are reviews on the Hydra-Z back from when it first released, mostly here on Head-fi. One guy even put Singxer-f1 over it (literally What). Idk, it's a crazy sleeper DDC, some idiots trashed it when it was first released, but it's actually massively good sound.

*Hydra-Z* has ALL the technical performance of something like Pi2aes (even more) but the most gorgeous analog presentation. When I say analog I don't mean smooth, rolled, or anything like that. I mean just liquid, zero digital hash sound. A unicorn that it's both blistering technical + musical engaging tonality.

This prompted me to buy the DI-20HE. I had eyes on it since the day Kingawa released it (I mean of course, I'm a long time AGD owner, having owned their two previous DDC, the 2014 and U8).

The reason I never snapped it up right away, was (sorry if this triggers somebody) Kingwa's last attempts at DDC were just awful! The 2014 + U8 are the worst DDC I've ever heard, getting beaten by any competent internal USB a dac might have.

This brings me to the review I'm writing now. I've had the DI-20HE for a few months now.

*Body:*
Based on what FradA says, I assume my Di-20HE has firmware 4.075? I was never going to roll firmware, maybe sometime in the very distant future.
As I said at the start, I'm exhausted from comparing DDC. It's not like speakers/amps. These are small differences, and takes hours and hours of a/b to form a good opinion.

Generally speaking, I have to put DI-20HE and Hydra-Z+ZPM at the same level.
I just simply have not done enough A/B to determine the micro-nuances between them.
Simply put, I think they are both head and shoulders above the rest of the DDC listed.
Maybe if I was to say any difference, Hydra-Z is more analog sounding, while DI-20HE might (big maybe here) edge it out in performance.

*DI-20HE*, (at least with 4.075 which I assume I'm running) the "P" and "S" modes I like. Meaning, I just it has two distinct flavors to roll.
Some people might find this annoying, and nervosa inducing, but I love being able to tune my systems. It's why I'm a massive tube lover, can roll your way out of almost any tonality issue.

To me, "P" was more analog sounding, forgiving, but just slightly smears the technical performance.
"S" is more exacting, articulated, no digital hash, but not as pleasant as "P". (Hydra-Z is like the technical of "S" with the tonality of "P" in a sense).

*Singxer SU-6*, huge step beyond previous DDC I used, such as SU-1/2014/U8.
Not huge, but decent step above Schiit Eitr.
The biggest downside to SU-6 is after full burn in, it's just a bit digital hashy/muddy (we're talking DDC differences here, keep that in mind, this isn't like saying an amp is muddy sounding, these are SMALL differences).

*Schiit Eitr*, I just loved the tonality here. Extremely neutral with little digital hash.

*Lynx AES16e*, love the tonality here too, might be my favorite tonal DDC in the whole list.
Has pretty great technical performance to boot, making it higher on my list. The soundstage specifically is spectacular on this, almost vinyl like stage.

*pi2aes*, amazing technical performance at an extremely affordable price.
Although, I greatly dislike it's thin tonality, has little weight to instruments and not much grunt.

*Gustard U18*, probably the worst take I have here, probably not even fully burned in yet.
Greatest strength, technical performance like pi2aes, without the light/thin tonality.
Soundstage isn't great tho, very forward sounding (take this with salt, didn't test with speakers).
It's super high on the list purely for technical performance alone, while not having digital hash.
The tonality leaves something to be desired, and it's almost artificially dynamic (jumpy sounding) and stage might be bad.
Maybe both the tone/stage is fixed with more burn in, I have maybe 100hr on it.

*After thoughts:*

I learned that I like the new Audirvana Studio over Roon.
Just like the X26, I got Audirvana just for these compares to have the best take.
I ended up liking the sound much more than Roon (was immediately noticeable to me).

I could write for so much longer, cables used, more nuances, but if I didn't vomit out the words I've already written, this review might never get posted.
I'll leave any fallow up information to Q&A if anybody has them.

*Disclaimer:*
These are my own personal _opinions._
They are not objective, could very well be bad, and are of course biased.


----------



## FredA

comzee said:


> I'm sick of listening to DDC.
> 
> *TLDR: *
> 
> ...


Getting the di20he two year ago, it made the old  internal usb (2019) sound like a toy. Same with the Gustard u16. The tonality and staging just amazed me. The layering too. Kingwa's success is beyond the usual Audio-gd crowd. Owner of all brand got interested. It's perhaps Kingwa's most successful product ever.


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## milkdudd (May 4, 2022)

I'm sure somewhere in these 232 pages this topic has been discussed. It would save me a lot of reading if you guys could tell me if the DI-20HE plays nice with the Topping D90. Original akm version, non-mqa. I have a chance to pick up a pre owned DI-20HE but would only do it if it's a simple plug-in play and is known to sound good. I think $800 plus shipping for one with a couple scratches is a little high. Thinking of offering $600 to $650 or so. For the foreseeable future I would be using Android OTG into the DDC and I2s into the dac. There's a chance if I get it I might also use it with my Gustard A22 dac. All advice appreciated


----------



## gimmeheadroom

How do you plan to use it?


----------



## milkdudd

gimmeheadroom said:


> How do you plan to use it?


Actually I would probably start by connecting it to the D90 with the I2s cable and use the D90 balanced outputs into my Violectric V281 headphone amp system. In my stereo room right now I have the Gustard U18 DDC connected to a gustard A22 dac. Some have said the DI-20HE is a big step up from the U18. After trying my initial setup I might swap the DDC's to see which works best where


----------



## gimmeheadroom

milkdudd said:


> Actually I would probably start by connecting it to the D90 with the I2s cable and use the D90 balanced outputs into my Violectric V281 headphone amp system. In my stereo room right now I have the Gustard U18 DDC connected to a gustard A22 dac. Some have said the DI-20HE is a big step up from the U18. After trying my initial setup I might swap the DDC's to see which works best where


I didn't know that the D90 uses IIS. If the pinouts are compatible I think the DI-20HE would be superb. I didn't try the U18 but I have a base model DI-20 and I think it's superb, especially if you need IIS or have Audio-gd gear. I did have an incompatibility using AES/EBU, it wouldn't lock my TASCAM CD recorder, but I resolved that by putting a Mutec reclocker between the two devices. Aside from some warmth (heat) and the size/weight, I guess the HE is a huge bargain in DDC.


----------



## sajunky (May 4, 2022)

milkdudd said:


> For the foreseeable future I would be using Android OTG into the DDC and I2s into the dac. There's a chance if I get it I might also use it with my Gustard A22 dac.


I don't expect you get any improvements with Android phone as a source. You can test it now with U18. If I am wrong, then DI-20 would also help. DDC is needed for stationary devices.

Regarding compatibility, S/PDIF receiver locking to the source can be problematic, it doesn't depend on a brand, but a particular units may not pair easily, even both the same brand. Small variation of the nominal oscilator frequency and it can fall in a dead spot. Not really predictable.

For I2S pairing, it is just a matter of matching pinout of both devices. Both Topping and Audio GD follow PS Audio pinout, it can be still a difference in DSD mode. The best is to ask both vendors to make sure. Audio GD users rather don't have experience with Topping, you can ask this question in DI-90 thread as well.
.


----------



## milkdudd

sajunky said:


> Regarding compatibility, S/PDIF receiver locking to the source can be problematic


I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. My Android is connected with a USB cable (using OTG) to the DDC. The DDC is connected to the dac using I2s. My CD player connects directly to the dac with an aes/ebu or coax cable, depending which CD player I connect


----------



## gimmeheadroom (May 4, 2022)

milkdudd said:


> I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. My Android is connected with a USB cable (using OTG) to the DDC. The DDC is connected to the dac using I2s. My CD player connects directly to the dac with an aes/ebu or coax cable, depending which CD player I connect


Connectivity on the DI-20/HE is not that great. If you have devices you want to run over AES/EBU, it's worth considering the Mutec MC-3+ USB. The Mutec has much better connectivity but it does not have IIS and it does not do native DSD. I have both boxes, due to the fact both devices have features I want but neither has everything I want.

I guess @sajunky meant the main benefit of DDC is decrapifying noisy PC USB connections. A phone which runs purely off a battery is not a significant source of electrical noise.


----------



## Jandu (May 5, 2022)

milkdudd said:


> Actually I would probably start by connecting it to the D90 with the I2s cable and use the D90 balanced outputs into my Violectric V281 headphone amp system. In my stereo room right now I have the Gustard U18 DDC connected to a gustard A22 dac. Some have said the DI-20HE is a big step up from the U18. After trying my initial setup I might swap the DDC's to see which works best where


If you are looking at Di20HE as part of your source chain, you should try using a RPi with clean power supply. I did try OTG android using a few phones, I could not get its sound quality better than a RPi as a music source.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

@FredA and maybe one other person said his DI-20HE hums. Does anybody have an HE which does not hum? This would drive me crazy. I have been removing every source of noise from my bedroom and run fanless PCs since I'm sensitive to noise. Any help would be appreciated, since I'm still not sure which DDC I'm going to buy.


----------



## PeterCraig

Mine doesn't hum. If it put my ear right up to the air vent and it's night time I can hear something. But before that and afterwards I never heard anything.


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> @FredA and maybe one other person said his DI-20HE hums. Does anybody have an HE which does not hum? This would drive me crazy. I have been removing every source of noise from my bedroom and run fanless PCs since I'm sensitive to noise. Any help would be appreciated, since I'm still not sure which DDC I'm going to buy.


Mine does not hum anymore. I just put pieces of foam, one under each foot. Problem cured.


----------



## comzee

FredA said:


> Mine does not hum anymore. I just put pieces of foam, one under each foot. Problem cured.


Mine still does, and it's not vibrations against the floor (something that foam feet would fix)
It's legitimately the transformers themselves. (I SUPER tightened the mounting screws for the transformers, inside the case, as well).

I will state again tho, it's extremely quiet hum, have to be in a dead quiet room, and within 4-5ft of the DI-20HE to hear it.
But it is there.


----------



## FredA

comzee said:


> Mine still does, and it's not vibrations against the floor (something that foam feet would fix)
> It's legitimately the transformers themselves. (I SUPER tightened the mounting screws for the transformers, inside the case, as well).
> 
> I will state again tho, it's extremely quiet hum, have to be in a dead quiet room, and within 4-5ft of the DI-20HE to hear it.
> But it is there.


Try the pieces of foam, i am talking medium/low density, 4mm thick or so. Nothing to loose because i had the same noise you are describing., and it worked. The transfo is likely rocking the whole unit.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Has anyone compared the DI to an Innuos Phoenix usb?

I realize it is usb to usb and not usb to i2s/spdif, etc,  but the idea is the same: to feed the DAC the cleanest signal possible.


----------



## Articnoise

comzee said:


> Mine still does, and it's not vibrations against the floor (something that foam feet would fix)
> It's legitimately the transformers themselves. (I SUPER tightened the mounting screws for the transformers, inside the case, as well).
> 
> I will state again tho, it's extremely quiet hum, have to be in a dead quiet room, and within 4-5ft of the DI-20HE to hear it.
> But it is there.


I have no hum on my DI20HE. Probably DC offset on the mains.


----------



## roberto2

Mine does not hum at all, even with my ear close to the unit it is completely silent!


----------



## bodiebill2

If I really make an effort I can hear an ever so slight hum, but it is negligible.
Maybe it even contributes to the magic of the DI-20(HE)


----------



## comzee

Articnoise said:


> I have no hum on my DI20HE. Probably DC offset on the mains.


I actually have a DC blocker, that isn't it.
Also I see you live in Sweden, 230v 50hz, much different that US 120v 60hz.
Just the change is transformers or components in your DI-20HE could make it not hum, compared to my US 120v unit.

Kinda makes sense in my mind, China is 220v 50hz. It's probably what Kingwa does all his testing on, and in depth analysis of the product.
Then he might pick a component on paper that works for US 120v/60hz, but doesn't test as rigorously.
Thus, maybe it's why 120V version has a hum... just spitballing here.

I've also tried my DI-20HE in two different houses, so not just one off "this house happens to have bad wiring" problem.

I think it's inherent in the design, and not related to external electrical problems.
I could be wrong, idk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'll state for the 4th time tho, it's extremely quiet hum, have to be in dead silent room, and within 5ft to hear it.
I've already moved the DI-20HE away from me so it's a non issue.

I just want the info out there so other US 120v customers aren't like What, I'm sending it back, it's broken.
Too many users here confirming transformer hum to say mine is a "bad" unit. I really think it's just "is what it is".


----------



## gimmeheadroom

comzee said:


> I actually have a DC blocker, that isn't it.
> Also I see you live in Sweden, 230v 50hz, much different that US 120v 60hz.
> Just the change is transformers or components in your DI-20HE could make it not hum, compared to my US 120v unit.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I was just wondering if we could correlate it to 220 vs. 120VAC. Guys, please chime in- does your DI-20HE hum or not, and what voltage do you have in your country.


----------



## bodiebill2

bodiebill2 said:


> If I really make an effort I can hear an ever so slight hum, but it is negligible.
> Maybe it even contributes to the magic of the DI-20(HE)


220VAC


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> 220VAC


Bad news for me!


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> Bad news for me!


Why? It is really negligible!


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Why? It is really negligible!


I have bionic hearing. Hum would drive me insane. I have nothing in my room that makes noise.


----------



## bodiebill2

I vaguely hear something with my ear pressed to the device. I hear nothing beyond 3 cm in a quiet room.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> I vaguely hear something with my ear pressed to the device. I hear nothing beyond 3 cm in a quiet room.


I can hear a dog scratching fleas in the next town with all my windows closed


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> I can hear a dog scratching fleas in the next town with all my windows closed


Then you must hate most recordings


----------



## Jandu

I cannot hear any hum from mine even my ear on the grill. Mine is 110v from the first batch of DI20HE production.


----------



## slazhx

Mine is DI-20HE. It is 220V here. Confirm no audible hum even when putting ears closed to the air vents on the top.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

arayasg said:


> Mine is DI-20HE. It is 220V here. Confirm no audible hum even when putting ears closed to the air vents on the top.


San Fransisco has 220VAC?


----------



## slazhx

gimmeheadroom said:


> San Fransisco has 220VAC?



Nope. I moved back to my homecountry, Thailand awhile ago 🙂


----------



## Articnoise

comzee said:


> I actually have a DC blocker, that isn't it.
> Also I see you live in Sweden, 230v 50hz, much different that US 120v 60hz.
> Just the change is transformers or components in your DI-20HE could make it not hum, compared to my US 120v unit.
> 
> ...


I really don't think your DI20HE hum because you have 120v 60hz in the US. Kingwa uses the same transformer in many of his products without any hum.


----------



## sajunky

If you have autotranformer for adjusting mains voltage, you can try to reduce by 10%. If doesn't help, it is not core saturation, but something else.


----------



## roberto2

roberto2 said:


> Mine does not hum at all, even with my ear close to the unit it is completely silent!


232V here in Paris, France


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Thanks guys, ordered! I will hope for a hum-free version


----------



## Zachik

gimmeheadroom said:


> I will hope for a hum-free version


You'd have to pay extra for the hum. It is an upgrade option


----------



## vgmbpty

Hello.  New to the forum. Would appreciate your advice.

I have an Innuos Zenith MK3 as a Roon player, with a very noisy USB port, that sounded much better with the Uptone Isoregen, but unfortunately, it was broken in an accident. 

Would like to stop the USB fight and try a DDC to test the other ports of my DAC (i2s, coax, AES/EBU).  I have a good 10MHz clock from AfterDark available and a well-treated AC power and ethernet network (Dual auditor switches, external LPSUs, external clocks).  My DAC is a Verity Audio Monsalvat Pre-2.  I like a full-bodied organic sound and I need some advice to pull the trigger.  After that, I have two MBL class D monoblocks and 116 speakers I bought amps and speakers used at a very convenient price.

After reading all I could, my candidates for DDC are the Gustard S18, Audio GD-20, and Audio GD-20 HE.  My understanding is that above that, I would have to jump to $10K servers and I cannot right now.  I understand the advice is based on personal experiences and I welcome it.  Thank you in advance.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

For me the decision between the DI-20 and DI-20HE is based on whether you have the room (HE is a bit bigger) and whether you don't mind the heat (the HE produces some, the base model none at all) and whether you want the best possible quality (HE wins). If you don't necessarily need IIS and you don't need native DSD then you could consider the Mutec MC-3+ USB. All three boxes can use a good external clock, but the Mutec is 75 ohm (pro standard).

I'm sure people will have more useful info, but since nobody responded yet (Fred must be on vacation  ) I decided to post.


----------



## Fibre101

I'd like to ask a few questions regarding cables and SQ improvements for the di20. I have the original di20 with a powerplant for regen. is it safe to say the the quality of the hdmi i2s cable is more important the the usb cable connecting to the pc? I was thinking of getting a pure silver hdmi to connect my di20 to my r8 dac and also getting a pure silver usb cable aswell but im kinda low on funds so would it be more ideal to buy the hdmi only with pure silver for more of an improvement over buying both usb and hdmi with pure silver?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I think it depends on the rest of your chain and your budget. I'm not a cable-believer, I just try to buy something that looks built well. I have the DI-20 base model (HE is coming in the next days) and an R8 MK2 and I'm using an el-cheapo Audioquest HDMI cable. It sounds wonderful. I hate the cable, this is not a recommedation for that brand. I just mean to say any decent HDMI cable will probably get you there. I do use decent USB cables but again it's by eye and I don't spend more than 10 euros on one.

Just my opinion...I know some of the guys here have spent significant money on HDMI cables and their setups are better than mine so I take their word for it when I read that they like this or that cable. But, for my budget and in my situation I just don't spend money on USB or HDMI cables beyond something that looks well made and has good reviews.


----------



## Fibre101

gimmeheadroom said:


> I think it depends on the rest of your chain and your budget. I'm not a cable-believer, I just try to buy something that looks built well. I have the DI-20 base model (HE is coming in the next days) and an R8 MK2 and I'm using an el-cheapo Audioquest HDMI cable. It sounds wonderful. I hate the cable, this is not a recommedation for that brand. I just mean to say any decent HDMI cable will probably get you there. I do use decent USB cables but again it's by eye and I don't spend more than 10 euros on one.
> 
> Just my opinion...I know some of the guys here have spent significant money on HDMI cables and their setups are better than mine so I take their word for it when I read that they like this or that cable. But, for my budget and in my situation I just don't spend money on USB or HDMI cables beyond something that looks well made and has good reviews.


Thanks for the feedback. I have used a 5% silver hdmi cable back on my older setup like a year ago and notice some improvements to be honest. I've never tried fancy usbs but I doubt they would likely help very much since i2s connections are much different and require the best signal strength for optimal performance. Im no expert by any means but my gut feeling says that a decent usb cable is good enough whereas a really good i2s cable makes a whole lot of a difference. Not sure.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Wait a bit for the other guys to respond. You will definitely get good advice in this thread


----------



## Jandu (May 12, 2022)

Fibre101 said:


> I'd like to ask a few questions regarding cables and SQ improvements for the di20.....



The following cable/connection changes provide sound improvements in my system:

- silver USB > copper USB
- 0.5m silver HDMI for IIS > 1 ft BlueJean HDMI > 1 m silver HDMI
- silver ACSS > silver RCA or silver XLR >AGD ACSS - connects from R8HE to HE9

None of the silver USB(.5m), HDMI(.5m) and ACSS(2m) cables is expensive. All combined is less than $500 CAD. My Silver RCA(2m) is about 4 times that, however, it still sounds better using the silver ACSS from the DAC to pre amp.

Biggest sound improvement I have experienced in my system: adding the DI20HE


----------



## sajunky

Fibre101 said:


> Im no expert by any means but my gut feeling says that a decent usb cable is good enough whereas a really good i2s cable makes a whole lot of a difference. Not sure.


This is correct. USB cable just decent, but HDMI cable should be high-speed (4k),  better an audio brand and as short as possible in your setup. The last one is a rule. For particular suggestions see other posts. 

You may still need a ground loop redirector like ifi defender.


----------



## Fibre101

sajunky said:


> This is correct. USB cable just decent, but HDMI cable should be high-speed (4k),  better an audio brand and as short as possible in your setup. The last one is a rule. For particular suggestions see other posts.
> 
> You may still need a ground loop redirector like ifi defender.


Yeah, has the ifi defender helped a significant amount? I realize that the motherboard of pc's with parts such as the cpu and others can inject noise into the usb. I thought that maybe the di20 with its isolated usb would do the trick to get rid of that noise but maybe having a clean outputting USB of your source can help possibly? Is this why many use streamers as a source instead of their pc?


----------



## Fibre101

Jandu said:


> The following cable/connection changes provide sound improvements in my system:
> 
> - silver USB > copper USB
> - 0.5m silver HDMI for IIS > 1 ft BlueJean HDMI > 1 m silver HDMI
> ...


Thank you, just ordered the pure silver hdmi. Next is probably the silver acss as it should make another huge improvement. They are a bit expensive though. The nimak ones are popular.


----------



## sajunky

Fibre101 said:


> Yeah, has the ifi defender helped a significant amount? I realize that the motherboard of pc's with parts such as the cpu and others can inject noise into the usb. I thought that maybe the di20 with its isolated usb would do the trick to get rid of that noise but maybe having a clean outputting USB of your source can help possibly? Is this why many use streamers as a source instead of their pc?


Audio GD v2021 DACs also have isolator on USB, but ground loop redirector makes a difference, so my educated quess is yes, I have no doubt it will help DDC too. Mainstream network streamers produce much less noise, but it is still not a level required for the audio gear. I do recommend switching off the internal WiFi/bluetooth radio and use external WiFi extender device on the short cable instead of a wired network. It is a tip to save on the expensive streamers.


----------



## iFi audio

Fibre101 said:


> I realize that the motherboard of pc's with parts such as the cpu and others can inject noise into the usb. I thought that maybe the di20 with its isolated usb would do the trick to get rid of that noise but maybe having a clean outputting USB of your source can help possibly? Is this why many use streamers as a source instead of their pc?



That's correct. DACs have to work on what they get from transports, so the cleaner data transports can output to them, the better.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

DI-20HE just arrived 

I'll swap out the base model to my headstation and swap in the HE to my big rig over the weekend.


----------



## Zachik

gimmeheadroom said:


> DI-20HE just arrived
> 
> I'll swap out the base model to my headstation and swap in the HE to my big rig over the weekend.


I would love to read your notes on whether or not you can tell the difference between the 2 units...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Zachik said:


> I would love to read your notes on whether or not you can tell the difference between the 2 units...


I don't expect to notice anything, since I'm not gonna swap them back and forth to do a comparo.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

First hours with the new DI-20HE in my big rig. I can hear the skins on the kick drum stretch, like I'm there. I recommended the Crusader's Images album before, and I recommend it again. Great music and tremendous recording.


----------



## AudioAlex

rsbrsvp said:


> I have burnt in my DI-20HE, R-7HE. and HE-9 pretty well now.  Using the Blue Jeans cable that Fred recommended between the DI-20HE and the R-7HE, and a pure silver USB cable from my Mac Mini to the DI-20HE,- I can safely say that I have NEVER heard transparency and detail at this level with all of my headphones; nothing even close.  It is so far ahead of anything else I ever heard in terms of transparency; just totally un-coloured pure music.
> 
> No upsampling on the R-7HE; it is a downgrade.  NOS is the purest....
> 
> Thanks to those in this thread who encouraged me to purchase this equipment...


Which headphones do you like best with the setup.. I'm aiming to get the same.. Thanks.


----------



## rsbrsvp (May 21, 2022)

Has anyone compared the ACSS coax out vs the SPDIF RCA out?

There is a fellow who did a review on the DI and analyzed the Jitter concluding that the ACSS BNC output had 7 times more jitter than the SPDIF (no ACSS) out.

https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/audio-gd-di20he-measurements/

I'm curious if anyone has compared the two and how they hear the differences....


----------



## gimmeheadroom

That reviewer is just another audioscientology preacher. ACSS uses BNC cable and supports up to 384 KHz. It's better than S/PDIF.

Why don't you listen for yourself?


----------



## rsbrsvp

I'm waiting for a new dac to arrive any day.  When I get it-  I'll test..


----------



## sajunky

rsbrsvp said:


> I'm waiting for a new dac to arrive any day.  When I get it-  I'll test..



Then please report back.

I have to defend @GoldenOne as he is not audioscientology preacher, but make listening tests as well. We have a different opinion at times and I feel he hates me,  but his approach to the measurements is very systematic and care is taken to get it right.

In this case he made a mistake. He didn't investigate how ACSS works and he measured voltage using a standard differential probe. This is wrong, as ACSS is not a voltage driven, but a current loop interface. To get meanful results he should assembly a differential current loop probe (following working conditions of the receiver) and measure a current. I posted my objection to this particular test, but he seems recognises me as an enemy and didn't acknowledge a mistake.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

He also made significant, embarassing mistakes in his crusade to discredit MQA a while back. So he's in my ignore list and I consider him Senior Assistant audioscientologist...

The fact he doesn't acknowledge mistakes is one of the requirements to be on the list


----------



## Don Quichotte

A few months ago I was promising some impressions from the Audio-GD DI20HE - Mutec MC3+ USB - Aurender UC100 match. Well the match happened in my home and the results are somewhat inconclusive but also surprising for the most part. My system consists of: Accuphase DP550 CD player with USB and SPDIF coax digital inputs, Accuphase E470 amplifier, Martin Logan Impression 11A speakers, Clearer Audio copper cables (for the most part). I'm favoring timbre and a wide range of contrasts (dynamic, textural, chromatic...) So;

1. The Audio-GD had a problem making a stable connection to my PC (running Windows 10) via USB. Installing and uninstalling the driver didn't make a difference, just as trying a different PC didn't help. In a friend's system, fed by the Sotm sms200ultra neo, it worked fine. Consequently, I didn't have the chance to burn it in enough.

2. When it worked, the sound was rather uninspiring. A bit dry and boring, with (surprisingly, given the look and weight!) restricted bottom end in terms or presence and extension. Tighter sound overall, especially in the bass, compared to the Aurender but also drier. Overall, the direct USB connection to the dac was better (lusher, more musical and perhaps with better inner detail and immediacy) than going through the Audio-GD both in my system and in my friend's. I have tried various power cords in a wide 100-1200 Euro range as well as USB and digital coax cables up to 700 Euro. 

3. The Mutec was light and forward sounding. This forward character made it seem more detailed, but in fact it was just presenting detail in a much more forward manner. I could immediately hear it was tuned with the pro audio market in mind, a matter-of-fact sound. Better treble extension than the Aurender perhaps, I'm not sure on this as it's been more than a month and I'm writing from memory, and clearly a tighter attack. No bass weight to speak of, it desperately needs a serious power supply IMO. It was clear to me from the first few minutes that I was going to return it. Oh, and I was shocked to see that the coax out connector was nickel (?) plated!?! Unlike the official pictures and manual images...

4. The cheaper, simpler Aurender was the winner not because it is absolutely great but because it was, to me, the most musically convincing of the three. It's a bit unfair as it was well burnt in. In absolute terms, it also loses some detail compared to the direct USB connection, has flabbier bass, subtly less treble and bass extension and is less dynamic, but it adds a beguiling midbass to lower midrange fulness and has a liquid sound. A good example of this fullnes can be heard on the first part of Vashkar, the second track of Carla Bley's Trios album. In my system, the Aurender with cheap (but pretty good in my experience!) Supra USB and digital coax cables make for a more convincing timbre overall compared to the direct USB connection, a more cohesive sound in terms of bass - mids integration and is tonally a bit more neutral (a little bit colder midrange than direct connection, which is good given the typical Accuphase extra dose of warmth I'm hearing in my system), with a very smooth and liquid sound, musical and easy on the ear.

Well, there's that, FWIW...


----------



## sajunky (May 22, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> He also made significant, embarassing mistakes in his crusade to discredit MQA a while back. So he's in my ignore list and I consider him Senior Assistant audioscientologist...
> 
> The fact he doesn't acknowledge mistakes is one of the requirements to be on the list


I do also recognise MQA as a cheat and an attempt to monopolize the entire music industry. Taxing everyone, from artists producing content to us, listeners. The main supporters of MQA are streaming companies having record of cheating on artists having conflict of interest, they jumped on MQA bandwagon for the same reason - greed.

In this topic my view is that CD format is almost sufficient when listening on R2R DAC like my R2R-11. Absolutely sufficient on the road, there is no reason for MQA. On desktop I can afford to stream or download 24/96kHz (my preference) format or 192k. The last one only beneficial on some selected new recordings, not being a common case.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> I do also recognise MQA as a cheat and an attempt to monopolize the entire music industry. Taxing everyone, from artists producing content to us, listeners. The main supporters of MQA are streaming companies having record of cheating on artists having conflict of interest, they jumped on MQA bandwagon for the same reason - greed.
> 
> In this topic my view is that CD format is almost sufficient when listening on R2R DAC like my R2R-11. Absolutely sufficient on the road, there is no reason for MQA. On desktop I can afford to stream or download 24/96kHz (my preference) format or 192k. The last one only beneficial on some selected new recordings, not being a common case.


I agree that lossy compression nowadays is pointless and dumb and I'm not sure why they do this. That said, the MQA albums do sound great. There have been other lossy codecs (Sony ATRAC for minidisc, for example) which sound far better than the numbers would suggest. The discussion is not whether you like MQA without listening to it, or for those people who listened to it and loved it until somebody told them they shouldn't, or other issues. The problem with his attack (and most others) was they failed to compare identical versions of the recording. There were other shortcomings in that "analysis" but I have forgotten, because I don't care to spend time watching people bashing things pointlessly. There is no need for crusades, and no justification for false prophets to save the world. Let your own ears decide


----------



## sajunky

Don Quichotte said:


> Oh, and I was shocked to see that the coax out connector was nickel (?) plated!?! Unlike the official pictures and manual images...


What you see gold is not a gold, but metal alloy. And for a digital connection irrelevant, IHMO.


----------



## GoldenOne

gimmeheadroom said:


> I agree that lossy compression nowadays is pointless and dumb and I'm not sure why they do this. That said, the MQA albums do sound great. There have been other lossy codecs (Sony ATRAC for minidisc, for example) which sound far better than the numbers would suggest. The discussion is not whether you like MQA without listening to it, or for those people who listened to it and loved it until somebody told them they shouldn't, or other issues. The problem with his attack (and most others) was they failed to compare identical versions of the recording. There were other shortcomings in that "analysis" but I have forgotten, because I don't care to spend time watching people bashing things pointlessly. There is no need for crusades, and no justification for false prophets to save the world. Let your own ears decide


You can't have identical versions of the recording if MQA changes your recording.
That's the whole point


----------



## gimmeheadroom

So the DI-20HE has been playing nicely for a few days and although it's warm to the touch that you can tell it's on, it's not anywhere as warm as I understood from reading the thread. In case anybody is put off by the idea that it runs hot, don't be. It's barely warmer than some of my other gear and runs much cooler than my Brooklyn DAC+ as a comparison.


----------



## Jandu

gimmeheadroom said:


> So the DI-20HE has been playing nicely for a few days and although it's warm to the touch that you can tell it's on, it's not anywhere as warm as I understood from reading the......


Just curious, any hum? That is when you put your ear close to the unit.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jandu said:


> Just curious, any hum? That is when you put your ear close to the unit.


Thankfully, no... dead silent. I was afraid to check after it seemed about half the people in the thread reported hum. But it's fine.

My setup is very cramped and my rack (shelving) is jammed with gear due to lack of space. But the Master 19 and DI-20HE sit on the top shelf so they have good ventilation. The Master 19 also runs cool, just a bit warmer than the DI-20HE.

I am so impressed with Kingwa's engineering and the quality of this gear.


----------



## slazhx

You might want to upgrade firmwares as well. Not sure which version comes with yours but yhe latter ones sound nice.


----------



## 801evan

GoldenOne said:


> You can't have identical versions of the recording if MQA changes your recording.
> That's the whole point


But you advocate using HQplayer, which changes the recording...


----------



## PeterCraig

HQplayer allows you to make changes.


----------



## sajunky

PeterCraig said:


> HQplayer allows you to make changes.


Yes, it allows bit-perfect mode, but for most users it is just upsampling tool with plenty of options for manipulating sound. For bit-perfect users a freeware Foobar 2000 is the best app.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

For the money HQPlayer is charging, they need a complete and total makeover of the UI. It breaks almost every rule of interface design. I hope the implementation side is better...


----------



## GoldenOne (May 24, 2022)

801evan said:


> But you advocate using HQplayer, which changes the recording...



The point of the MQA video wasn't that changing your music is bad. It isn't (or rather, it's situational). Stuff like EQ, higher performance oversampling, crossfeed etc can all be useful tools to make stuff potentially sound better.
But those things do what they say on the tin.

I never said MQA sounds bad, or that you can't subjectively like or prefer it. If you do that's fine.
The point was that their marketing was dishonest and false. And it doesn't do the majority of the things it claims to, and has drawbacks/side-effects that one may well want to avoid.


gimmeheadroom said:


> For the money HQPlayer is charging, they need a complete and total makeover of the UI. It breaks almost every rule of interface design. I hope the implementation side is better...


Yeah the UI is unfortunately pretty clunky to use.
Most people use it with Roon though which solves the problem. You basically just leave HQP running, then use roon as you normally would and don't need to touch HQP again.

Would be nice if the standalone UI was better though.


----------



## Joe Bloggs

801evan said:


> But you advocate using HQplayer, which changes the recording...


MQA is at least as bad for people who want to process their music to suit their system as those who don't.  MQA changes the music to suit their purposes and doesn't allow any changes afterward.  Well, if that worked, DSD would have worked too.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

DSD works fine. I have several hundred SACD rips and I still buy SACDs. And I have a DSD recorder and DSD editing software from TASCAM.

Anyway, this is the DI-20 thread. So DSD-bashing, MQA-bashing, and other unrelated topics should probably move to the audioscientology forums


----------



## rsbrsvp

I need to reinstall my USB driver on the DI and I cant because pressing the button on the back- no matter how long I hold it does not erase the driver in the unit.

Can someone explain to me how to erase the USB driver from the DI so I can do a fresh install?


----------



## interweb-tech

rsbrsvp said:


> I need to reinstall my USB driver on the DI and I cant because pressing the button on the back- no matter how long I hold it does not erase the driver in the unit.
> 
> Can someone explain to me how to erase the USB driver from the DI so I can do a fresh install?


USB driver is installed on the connected PC. Its the firmware that resides on the DI unit.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I mean the firmware.   The back button does not reset it..


----------



## Jandu (Jun 5, 2022)

rsbrsvp said:


> I need to reinstall my USB driver on the DI and I cant because pressing the button on the back- no matter how long I hold it does not erase the driver in the unit.
> 
> Can someone explain to me how to erase the USB driver from the DI so I can do a fresh instalo avoid accidentally erase



To avoid accidentally erasure.
From AGD website:

Some few customer feedback they accidentally touch the Amanero update button cause the firmware delete, Since 23rd. July 2021 , the product ship without connect the update button wire, if customer want to active the update button feature, connect by customer.

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R8mk2/R8mk2EN_Use.htm


----------



## rsbrsvp

got it..  It worked..


----------



## maellen

Anyone using Bluesound Node 2i (coax output) with the DI-20HE (coax input). Any compatibility issues?


----------



## rsbrsvp

When using the ACSS output on the DI, is it correct that cable length does not matter- or does it?


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have a question for fellow headfiers.

WHen I download new firmware- I often get static noise and have to re-due the firmware update.  Is this normal and is there any way to prevent it from happening?


----------



## sajunky (Jun 7, 2022)

rsbrsvp said:


> When using the ACSS output on the DI, is it correct that cable length does not matter- or does it?


Its more immune to noise, but I would place DDC close to the DAC (and powered from the same outlet) anyway. What cable lenght you are talking about and what is your sound source?

Regarding getting cracks after firmware upgrade, I think you don't follow closely procedure or USB cable is to long. The instruction on the Amanero website is slightly different. Where Amanero says unplug/plug USB cable, you also need to power cycle (off/on) DI-20.


----------



## theaudioproject

Hai everyone,
I am new here and this is my first post , hope you guys will help me sort this.

I have an audiogd r2r7 dac which i had recently updated the firmware [latest as per audiogd]. I had also updates the usb combo firmware and used the driver mentioned by the manufacturer.
Since then i have this noise coming out of the speaker with some files cannot say exactly which  but mostly files that are 24/192,24/96,  . While dsd or 16/44 or 24/48 or even 16/48 has no issue. If any file starts having issue then it will continue for rest of all file which i play no matter what bit or sample. This will be ok only after i turn the dac off and restart it after sometime , but sometime it wont even help and i will wait a while longer to start the dac. If is stop playback when it was working and then start again even 16/44.1 files too will not play without noise. and funny thing is clearly dont have a clue when the device malfunction  or till when til will properly function.

So i am on firmware R-7_Parallel_DOP1.1_IIS3 Nov 2020
Amanero Win 10 driver is ver 1.0.62
Foobar 1.6.11 2000 using exclusive driver or asio  to Amanero
Jriver 28.0.106  using asio


----------



## interweb-tech

theaudioproject said:


> Hai everyone,
> I am new here and this is my first post , hope you guys will help me sort this.
> 
> I have an audiogd r2r7 dac which i had recently updated the firmware [latest as per audiogd]. I had also updates the usb combo firmware and used the driver mentioned by the manufacturer.
> ...


I am using WASAPI (JRiver, Roon, Foobar) as well as 1.0.67 USB driver. No crackles or pops at all.

https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm


----------



## theaudioproject

interweb-tech said:


> I am using WASAPI (JRiver, Roon, Foobar) as well as 1.0.67 USB driver. No crackles or pops at all.
> 
> https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm


I started having issue only after usb combo and fpga update


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Hi, a bit confused what you mean by r2r7 DAC and you are posting in the DI-20 thread. What exactly is your DAC and did you update the DAC firmware and DI-20 firmware and USB firmware for both devices all at the same time? I hope not...

1st thing, make sure you have the correct firmware for your devices, the firmware page can be a bit confusing. Do one thing at a time and test every step of the way before doing something else.

To isolate the issue to the device firmware or USB firmware, try some other input (coax, AES/EBU, optical) etc.


----------



## bodiebill2

Did anyone try different feet under the DI-20(HE)? A friend gave me these on trial:
https://www.aai.sk/product/pads/
The mini ones do make a positive difference here, either under the DI-20HE or under my Holo Audio Spring 3 DAC, but more so under the former.


----------



## Jandu

bodiebill2 said:


> Did anyone try different feet under the.......



Nothing that fancy I am using, just some vibration damping material which I use on all my equipment. This is way back when the system was a lot less resolving, never test it lately, so not sure how big/small the effects it has on my system anymore. At the time that I did the testing, it did make a difference to isolate/damp the vertical movement, sound is actually better if the lateral movement is not restricted.


----------



## vgmbpty

bodiebill2 said:


> Did anyone try different feet under the DI-20(HE)?


I have tested how important this is many times in the past.  Anything with clocks benefits from vibration absorption feet, so I do not test anymore.  My go-to product is the Iso Pucks, the best bang for the buck IMHO.

https://www.amazon.com/IsoAcoustics...?keywords=iso+puck&qid=1655137684&sr=8-3&th=1


----------



## BoyNamedSue

theaudioproject said:


> So i am on firmware R-7_Parallel_DOP1.1_IIS3 Nov 2020
> Amanero Win 10 driver is ver 1.0.62
> Foobar 1.6.11 2000 using exclusive driver or asio  to Amanero
> Jriver 28.0.106  using asio



Does changing the firmware on r2r7 change/improve sound? Mine is still stock and sounds really good but would be fun to experiment.

I landed on 3.933 for the di20.


----------



## lator

bodiebill2 said:


> Did anyone try different feet under the DI-20(HE)?


I use RKI-5005 by Acoustic Revive: https://acousticrevive.jp/portfolio-item/insulatorspike-receptacleresonator


----------



## bodiebill2

lator said:


> I use RKI-5005 by Acoustic Revive: https://acousticrevive.jp/portfolio-item/insulatorspike-receptacleresonator


That looks interesting -- and not overly expensive. What is the effect?


----------



## lator

bodiebill2 said:


> That looks interesting -- and not overly expensive. What is the effect?


More of everything, no tradeoffs that I have noticed. Imagine adding better master clock for your system. All the hifi goodness without sacrificing musicality.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

I use cheapo vibration pads under feet of di20:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/DiversiTech-MP-2E-EVA-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8

Noticed slightly deeper bass but definitely in realm of placebo. 

My wife put these pads between her stack of external hardrives and said it definitely lowered mechanical noise so they are doing something.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Jun 14, 2022)

BoyNamedSue said:


> I use cheapo vibration pads under feet of di20:
> https://www.supplyhouse.com/DiversiTech-MP-2E-EVA-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8
> 
> Noticed slightly deeper bass but definitely in realm of placebo.
> ...



$0,84 in the US against €6,30 in Europe alas :-|

I am reluctant to pay through the _nose_ for _feet_, so ordered a mix of these:
https://www.decathlon.nl/p/officiel...0IQor8H3Hc48M8HDpVso0UYNSFeT5vaRoCsj4QAvD_BwE
https://www.tonecontrol.nl/isoacoustics-iso-puck-mini

My _ears_ will decide the rest...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> $0,84 in the US against €6,30 in Europe alas :-|
> 
> I am reluctant to pay through the _nose_ for _feet_, so ordered a mix of these:
> https://www.decathlon.nl/p/officiel...0IQor8H3Hc48M8HDpVso0UYNSFeT5vaRoCsj4QAvD_BwE
> ...


We're on pins and needles waiting for the update


----------



## theaudioproject

BoyNamedSue said:


> Does changing the firmware on r2r7 change/improve sound? Mine is still stock and sounds really good but would be fun to experiment.
> 
> I landed on 3.933 for the di20.


yes it does sound better in overall presentation , now it feels more refined. actually i flashed an update yesterday with file given by audiogd. Nothing felt different from previous update.

But if u can update it, the pops in between track will be gone and spdif also will sound better with less jitter.


----------



## slazhx

Sorry if this is a little off topic, I'm selling a brand new Nimak ACSS 5 cable at used price. Please feel free to pm if anyone is interested.

Thank you. 

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/nimak-audio-acss-5-100-cm-length.27756/


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I am running my Brooklyn DAC+ off the DI-20's wordclock output. I need to try more resolving headphones but listening on the LCD-2C and HE400i 2020 I don't think I hear any difference between that and the Brooklyn's internal clock. I guess in theory using the DI-20 as a master clock should be better since I'm feeding the Brooklyn from the DI-20 over AES/EBU.


----------



## KZCloud89

I have the R28 2022 Edition.  Sounds great with all my headphones except the HD800 (use the WA22 for this).  Will the DI-20HE take it up a notch?  Will I be able to hear the difference with Hi Res music files?  Please tell me YES......


----------



## houdini06 (Jun 20, 2022)

Guys just received  Audio-GD HE DI20 amazing sound very detailed and so layered just using Pegasus i2s, x18 AES, had the u18 was very good but I’m in another level right now. Just came here to say thank you. For helping me decide. Cheers. Will wait for the burn in process but sounding really good so far.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jun 21, 2022)

KZCloud89 said:


> I have the R28 2022 Edition.  Sounds great with all my headphones except the HD800 (use the WA22 for this).  Will the DI-20HE take it up a notch?  Will I be able to hear the difference with Hi Res music files?  Please tell me YES......


If you want to buy a DI-20HE it will be difficult to find anybody in this thread who would try to dissuade you 



houdini06 said:


> Guys just received  Audio-GD HE DI20 amazing sound very detailed and so layered just using Pegasus i2s, x18 AES, had the u18 was very good but I’m in another level right now. Just came here to say thank you. For helping me decide. Cheers. Will wait for the burn in process but sounding really good so far.


I think @FredA is a fan of the Afterdark clocks. I would expect that + the DI-20HE is going to sound superb.


----------



## houdini06

gimmeheadroom said:


> If you want to buy a DI-20HE it will be difficult to find anybody in this thread who would try to dissuade you
> 
> 
> I think @FredA is a fan of the Afterdark clocks. I would expect that + the DI-20HE is going to sound super





gimmeheadroom said:


> If you want to buy a DI-20HE it will be difficult to find anybody in this thread who would try to dissuade you
> 
> 
> I think @FredA is a fan of the Afterdark clocks. I would expect that + the DI-20HE is going to sound superb.


It is sounding amazing even though my after dark clock is the queen edition. But never the less sounds great. Do you know which is the best firmware, I update to the latest firmware. Anything I should know.  Thanks again.


----------



## bodiebill2

houdini06 said:


> It is sounding amazing even though my after dark clock is the queen edition. But never the less sounds great. Do you know which is the best firmware, I update to the latest firmware. Anything I should know.  Thanks again.



Great results here also with an Afterdark Trifecta (Emperor Double Crown), feeding EtherRegen, Afterdark Rosanna streamer and DI-20HE.


----------



## houdini06

I bet your in audio bliss, I will try to get a better afterdark clock.  How is the Rosanna streamer ?I’m just streaming from my Mac mini M1.  Still my ears are very happy.


----------



## Fibre101

This might've been answered before but I'd like to ask whether the regular di20 really benefits from a good power cable. I use the stock 18 AWG power cord it came with and was wondering if a good power cord will increase its performance. If so what cable thickness or sheilded power cords can you reccomend that doesnt break the bank?


----------



## bodiebill2

houdini06 said:


> I bet your in audio bliss, I will try to get a better afterdark clock.  How is the Rosanna streamer ?I’m just streaming from my Mac mini M1.  Still my ears are very happy.



I really like the Rosanna. It is RPi4 based and has an internal LPS and 10MHz clock input. I use it with GentooPlayer as a Diretta endpoint and it connects to the DI-20HE with a Phasure Lush^2 usb cable. And from there with a Phasure hdmi^2 I2S cable to the Spring 3 L2 DAC.

The problem with these ears of us is that, even when happy, they want to -- and can -- get happier still. But for now I am enjoying and try to maintain my plateau of happiness


----------



## gimmeheadroom

houdini06 said:


> It is sounding amazing even though my after dark clock is the queen edition. But never the less sounds great. Do you know which is the best firmware, I update to the latest firmware. Anything I should know.  Thanks again.


I'm sure somebody will know. As for me, I run the stock firmware and never upgrade unless I have a problem.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Fibre101 said:


> This might've been answered before but I'd like to ask whether the regular di20 really benefits from a good power cable. I use the stock 18 AWG power cord it came with and was wondering if a good power cord will increase its performance. If so what cable thickness or sheilded power cords can you reccomend that doesnt break the bank?


I haven't done any comparisons but the Audio-gd power cables look well built and are priced right, so that's what I use.


----------



## houdini06 (Jun 21, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm sure somebody will know. As for me, I run the stock firmware and never upgrade unless I have a problem.





gimmeheadroom said:


> I haven't done any comparisons but the Audio-gd power cables look well built and are priced right, so that's what I use.





Thank you I will see what sounds better. Happy listening.


----------



## lator

Fibre101 said:


> This might've been answered before but I'd like to ask whether the regular di20 really benefits from a good power cable.


It benefits maybe 2nd most noticeable improvement in my rig (Audio-GD Master 19 gains even more). Best match below €1000 I have found is Siltech SPX-800 but sadly discontinued.


----------



## houdini06

Guys I did a firmware update this what the He is doing.  Any help ?


----------



## myshark

houdini06 said:


> Guys I did a firmware update this what the He is doing.  Any help ?


That looks like the display setting
 Check out the user manual on display settings.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

As @myshark wrote...

When you press a button nothing lights up? That looks like what happens in dim mode after the display timeout.


----------



## houdini06

gimmeheadroom said:


> As @myshark wrote...
> 
> When you press a button nothing lights up? That looks like what happens in dim mode after the display timeout.




Thank you lol you save my mind from craziness. Wow I changed a setting by mistake. Trying this new firmwares.  Don’t like 4.076 to harsh staying with 4.075 all around warmth and more to my liking. Cheers


----------



## houdini06

myshark said:


> That looks like the display setting
> Check out the user manual on display settings.
> 
> Thanks brother almost lost it. That was it. Audiophile nervousness need my music.


----------



## slazhx

I love this setting as the light won't distract you while listening at night in the dark room.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

houdini06 said:


> Thank you lol you save my mind from craziness. Wow I changed a setting by mistake. Trying this new firmwares.  Don’t like 4.076 to harsh staying with 4.075 all around warmth and more to my liking. Cheers


Hah, glad you got it sorted!



arayasg said:


> I love this setting as the light won't distract you while listening at night in the dark room.


For me it doesn't help. It's way too bright in a dark room and there is no way to turn the display back on except by actually changing a setting. I tried it for a while and then decided it would be better to leave it on all the time.

"But it sounded like a good idea at the time..."


----------



## lator (Jun 22, 2022)

Not many impressions in this thread using a reclocker in combination with DI-20. Got Ideon 3R Master Time Black Star in the house few weeks ago and been testing it before DI-20 and straight with usb to dac. Still DI-20 in the mix holds it's magic.

However with 3R Master Time my preference is now serial mode instead of parallel that is normally in use. With parallel it seems to favor leading edge of notes slightly too much. Serial nails note sustain just right, perhaps the hardest trick to pull off for digital frontend vs vinyl.





Sorry to say for wallets there is noticeable difference in audio quality with 3R Master Time added in the audio chain. Overall openness of sound, improved soundstage depth, palpable more lifelike timbre, bass accuracy and authority (some serious wow moments especially with bass). I expect effects would be similar with Innuos Phoenix as well.

LPS powered JCAT USB XE card as source, T+A DAC 8 DSD with AES/EBU XLR input. Both USB connections without 5V power lines (data only). Tested with entry level Atlas USB cable without vibration pads so even more potential to be unleashed.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

lator said:


> Not many impressions in this thread using a reclocker in combination with DI-20. Got Ideon 3R Master Time Black Star in the house few weeks ago and been testing it before DI-20 and straight with usb to dac. Still DI-20 in the mix holds it's magic.
> 
> However with 3R Master Time my preference is now serial mode instead of parallel that is normally in use. With parallel it seems to favor leading edge of notes slightly too much. Serial nails note sustain just right, perhaps the hardest trick to pull off for digital frontend vs vinyl.
> 
> ...



My setup is wired like this (3 paths, one instance of the components):

(1) PC -> USB -> DI-20HE -> I2S -> R8 mk2
(2) PC -> USB -> DI-20HE -> AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ USB -> AES/EBU -> R8 mk2
(3) PC -> USB -> MC-3+ USB -> AES/EBU -> R8 mk2

So I can compare the system with or without the Mutec in it, and also with or without the DI-20HE in it. The best clarity, sparkle, and space seem to be when using path (2) above. However since I got the cable the guys here recommended, (1) does sound extremely good.

I haven't tried running the Mutec into the DI-20HE but that would be easy enough. I was interested in your comment about serial vs. parallel mode. I don't think I played around with that much. Thanks for your post.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> You can get a 0.7 Oyaide bnc-bnc silver cable for 115 usd on ebay. I just received a 1.0m. Can't make any statement on it yet other than build quality is top notch.


What did you decide, Fred? I'm going to get a pair of cables to run my Oppo in and out of my Mutec boxes. Without spending too much time, I narrowed it down to OYAIDE DST-75R V2 Coaxial Cable RCA SPDIF 75 Ohm 102SSC Rhodium Plated 1m at audiophonics.fr or Vovox that Thomann sells, mostly out of convenience and not wanting to spend weeks researching this. Whatever I get will be an upgrade from the house brand RCA coaxials I use here and there.


----------



## vgmbpty

Well, I can report that the DI20 HE worked very well to improve the output of my Innuos Zenith MK3 into the Verity Monsalvat Pre 2 (Dad + Preamplifier).
Once I connected the external AfterDark clock (Emperor Trifecta) the PRaT, bass authority, and ease of sound were increased even more, but I was using a basic BNC cable.  When I upgraded to the Blue BNC cable from Cybershaft, the clarity increased, but without high-frequency harshness.

With this configuration, the effects of Roon running from an external core or from the Innuos are clear.  It is a mix of increasing noise and upsampling.  So now I changed to run the music from the Innuos and the Sense App, forgetting about Roon and upsampling.  I have gained a new appreciation for the NOS approach ( No oversampling) as my system is sounding better than ever.

My lessons learned:  I can live without Roon ( now using the Innuos Sense App).  The Audio-GD DDC made me forget about upsampling and upgrading the music server.  A good external clock and cable are important.  I do not need an Antipodes K50.  My local dealer will not be happy, LOL.


----------



## Jandu

gimmeheadroom said:


> What did you decide, Fred? I'm going to get a pair of cables to run my Oppo in and out of my Mutec boxes. Without spending too much time, I narrowed it down to OYAIDE DST-75R V2 Coaxial Cable RCA SPDIF 75 Ohm 102SSC Rhodium Plated 1m at audiophonics.fr or Vovox that Thomann sells, mostly out of convenience and not wanting to spend weeks researching this. Whatever I get will be an upgrade from the house brand RCA coaxials I use here and there.


Just FYI, my friends RPi4b with Simple best PS can easily win against an untreated Oppo in his system.


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> What did you decide, Fred? I'm going to get a pair of cables to run my Oppo in and out of my Mutec boxes. Without spending too much time, I narrowed it down to OYAIDE DST-75R V2 Coaxial Cable RCA SPDIF 75 Ohm 102SSC Rhodium Plated 1m at audiophonics.fr or Vovox that Thomann sells, mostly out of convenience and not wanting to spend weeks researching this. Whatever I get will be an upgrade from the house brand RCA coaxials I use here and there.


Got a monoprice here. And the Oyaide. Not sure the Oyaide is anything special (although using it in the marked direction improves sound) . You are better off with a dhlabs aes/ebu cable if your equipement allows it. I can recommend the Acoustic Zen Silver Byte, pretty sure it beats the Oyaide.


----------



## FredA (Jun 22, 2022)

vgmbpty said:


> Well, I can report that the DI20 HE worked very well to improve the output of my Innuos Zenith MK3 into the Verity Monsalvat Pre 2 (Dad + Preamplifier).
> Once I connected the external AfterDark clock (Emperor Trifecta) the PRaT, bass authority, and ease of sound were increased even more, but I was using a basic BNC cable.  When I upgraded to the Blue BNC cable from Cybershaft, the clarity increased, but without high-frequency harshness.
> 
> With this configuration, the effects of Roon running from an external core or from the Innuos are clear.  It is a mix of increasing noise and upsampling.  So now I changed to run the music from the Innuos and the Sense App, forgetting about Roon and upsampling.  I have gained a new appreciation for the NOS approach ( No oversampling) as my system is sounding better than ever.
> ...


You got your Cybershaft cable from Afterdark? You think it beats the Afterdark red?


----------



## vgmbpty

FredA said:


> You got you Cybershaft cable from Afterdark? You think it beats the Afterdark red?


I got the blue cable from the cybershaft website. Price of the blue was lower, i needed 1.5m of it. Cannot test the Red one, the ones I have are too short.  Would not be surprised if the red was better, as I was told by Adrian.


----------



## slazhx

vgmbpty said:


> not be surprised if the red was better, as I was told by Adrian



That was the same Adrian told me. 



Jandu said:


> Just FYI, my friends RPi4b with Simple best PS can easily win against an untreated Oppo in his system



Simple Best is the brand Kingwa recommended to me as well.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Is HDMI and ACSS equally good connections to a dac or is HDMI better- all assuming equal cable quality?


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jun 23, 2022)

Jandu said:


> Just FYI, my friends RPi4b with Simple best PS can easily win against an untreated Oppo in his system.



I'm not sure what you mean but my intent for this project was just to get native support for some oddball codecs like DTS. Most of the time, I'm using the R8 mk2 rather than the Oppo, which I use now pretty much just for playing SACDs.



FredA said:


> Got a monoprice here. And the Oyaide. Not sure the Oyaide is anything special (although using it in the marked direction improves sound) . You are better off with a dhlabs aes/ebu cable if your equipement allows it. I can recommend the Acoustic Zen Silver Byte, pretty sure it beats the Oyaide.



I much prefer AES/EBU to coax and I use it whenever I can and I make my own AES/EBU cables. Unfortunately, the Oppo doesn't have AES/EBU, just S/PDIF. Mostly I use it only for SACDs but since it supports DTS and I found a few DTS CD rips I thought I may as well wire it to use the DAC over coax.

Thanks for the data point on the Oyaide, it will be easier for me to buy the Vovox from Thomann. Interestingly, Thomann is no longer carrying the Mutec MC-3+ USB, although they still sell the non-USB version. Before this happened I asked Mutec about the difference between the USB and non-USB version since I don't necessarily need USB input if I buy another one, but I was told the reclocking in the USB version is next gen and better than the non-USB version and that there is benefit even when using it with AES/EBU or S/PDIF in, over the non-USB version.


----------



## rsbrsvp

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm not sure what you mean but my intent for this project was just to get native support for some oddball codecs like DTS. Most of the time, I'm using the R8 mk2 rather than the Oppo, which I use now pretty much just for playing SACDs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought the magic of the DI-20 is the ACSS output.  AES is not ACSS.   Shouldnt the ACSS coax be better?


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jun 28, 2022)

rsbrsvp said:


> I thought the magic of the DI-20 is the ACSS output.  AES is not ACSS.   Shouldnt the ACSS coax be better?


ACSS has higher bandwidth than AES/EBU, yes. And I do have my R8 mk2 hooked up to my DI-20HE via ACSS along with IIS. But ACSS is not an industry standard so if you have pro gear you use AES/EBU and if you have consumer gear you have S/PDIF. There isn't any way to capitalize on ACSS for non-Audio-gd components.

But, when we were talking about coax, we were talking about S/PDIF coax, not BNC.

Edit: I was talking about S/PDIF coax, but Fred was talking about BNC. He said it plain as day and I just missed it. Several people quoted me or asked me something and in those posts, too, I totally missed it. So, sorry to everybody and my only explanation must be insufficient beer


----------



## rsbrsvp

gimmeheadroom said:


> ACSS has higher bandwidth than AES/EBU, yes. And I do have my R8 mk2 hooked up to my DI-20HE via ACSS along with IIS. But ACSS is not an industry standard so if you have pro gear you use AES/EBU and if you have consumer gear you have S/PDIF. There isn't any way to capitalize on ACSS for non-Audio-gd components.
> 
> But, when we were talking about coax, we were talking about S/PDIF coax, not BNC.


Isnt HDMI i2s the best?


----------



## rsbrsvp

My cable manufacturer believes S/PDIF can better than BNC.  Why?  Yes- BNC is exactly 75ohm and SPDIF may be 1/10 of 1% off of 75 ohm.  But coax only allows for very thin gauge wire.  Using RCA terminations in SPDIF he can make OCC sliver as thick as 12awg- and he believes this thick gauge is critical to the delivery of the signal and will make a substantial sonic difference..


----------



## gimmeheadroom

rsbrsvp said:


> Isnt HDMI i2s the best?



The question is too general. I2S doesn't have a standard pinout and very little gear supports it. 

My question to Fred was regarding his comment a while back on Oyaide coaxial S/PDIF because my Oppo doesn't support anything besides USB and S/PDIF (optical and coax).


----------



## newabc

gimmeheadroom said:


> ACSS has higher bandwidth than AES/EBU, yes. And I do have my R8 mk2 hooked up to my DI-20HE via ACSS along with IIS. But ACSS is not an industry standard so if you have pro gear you use AES/EBU and if you have consumer gear you have S/PDIF. There isn't any way to capitalize on ACSS for non-Audio-gd components.
> 
> But, when we were talking about coax, we were talking about S/PDIF coax, not BNC.



When I purchased the DI-20, Kingwa said the SPDIF ACSS(digital) output is compatible for most of the SPDIF input (digital). 
But I think there are still some DACs when they are designed with their own specs of SPDIF that are out of the regular SPDIF specs.

I have no problem for the DI-20's SPDIF ACSS output to the year-2013 Audio-gd Ref 5 when there was no SPDIF ACSS at that time.

But for the analog ACSS output of the Audio-gd DACs, not DI-20/DI-20he, they are analog output to the pre-amps or headphone amps, not digital.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

newabc said:


> When I purchased the DI-20, Kingwa said the SPDIF ACSS(digital) output is compatible for most of the SPDIF input (digital).
> But I think there are still some DACs when they are designed with their own specs of SPDIF that are out of the regular SPDIF specs.



No, it's exactly the opposite. ACSS is not compliant with S/PDIF. And you're conflating two things which are not equal.

ACSS is not S/PDIF. It ACSS was S/PDIF then it would not have needed a new name. ACSS runs over coax with BNC connectors. It supports higher bandwidth than S/PDIF coax and therefore is not compatible. ACSS is good to 32/384, S/PDIF coax is good to 24/192, S/PDIF optical is good to 24/96.

I said, and you quoted it:

*"But, when we were talking about coax, we were talking about S/PDIF coax, not BNC."*

S/PDIF coax uses a coaxial cable with RCA connectors. This is not ACSS and this is not what I asked about so I have no idea why you quoted my post. You just confused things further.

Try playing 385.2 KHz PCM over ACSS to a non-Audio-gd DAC's S/PDIF input on* RCA coax* and see what happens.




newabc said:


> I have no problem for the DI-20's SPDIF ACSS output to the year-2013 Audio-gd Ref 5 when there was no SPDIF ACSS at that time.



So two pieces of Audio-gd gear can work together. Nothing new here


----------



## rsbrsvp

Has anyone ever used a "optic" HDMI cable with the DI?  

Like this:  
FIBBR HDMI 2.1 8K​
I'd appreciate opinions on this idea...


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Has anyone ever used a "optic" HDMI cable with the DI?
> 
> Like this:
> FIBBR HDMI 2.1 8K​
> I'd appreciate opinions on this idea...


I strongly doubt it can make the sound any better. On the contrary. The cable has to have a power line AFAIK so goodbye galvanic isolation. And hello to added noise. It may work for certain setups, but i don't think it can work with the di20he/r7he combo.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Is galvanic isolation supposed to come before or after reclocking?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I think it should be in the first device after the source.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jun 26, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I think it should be in the first device after the source.


I think so to...

Check out this usb cable.    Someone I trust very much in the audio business told me this is the best USB cable he has ever heard cost-no object.  It has built in galvanic isolation.  I was also told- not all galvanic isolation is the same.  This company got it right...

https://fibbrcable.com/products/alpha-usb-a-b-optical-fiber-digital-audio-cable


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I would not buy such a thing, the DI-20 already handles isolation and I think the new MK2 DACs also have some isolation for USB.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I agree.  This usb cable would be great if you don't have a DI but only a reclocker like a sotm TX-usb or phoenixusb-


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> I think so to...
> 
> Check out this usb cable.    Someone I trust very much in the audio business told me this is the best USB cable he has ever heard cost-no object.  It has built in galvanic isolation.  I was also told- not all galvanic isolation is the same.  This company got it right...
> 
> https://fibbrcable.com/products/alpha-usb-a-b-optical-fiber-digital-audio-cable


It can provide isolation before the usb receiver. Maybe it would bring some improvement. You need a psu on the end side as far as i can tell.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> It can provide isolation before the usb receiver. Maybe it would bring some improvement. You need a psu on the end side as far as i can tell.


Correct.


----------



## FredA (Jun 26, 2022)

I am not sure it can beat a good streamer with excellent usb cable though. If used with a regular pc (noisy), it could perform better than a pricy usb cable. But out of a good streamer, i strongly doubt it.


----------



## vgmbpty

This is correct, I tested several USB cables before the DI20HE and the good ones make noticeable improvements.   I ended using a Chord Sarum.


----------



## Zachik

Any experience or recommendations for *a 2 -> 1 SPDIF switcher*?
I am considering a DAC that has 1xUSB and 1xSPDIF (RCA) inputs, and would like to feed it from 2 sources (e.g. PC->DI-20HE and standalone streamer) each has an RCA SPDIF. I am thinking since the DAC cannot accommodate 2 SPDIF inputs, using something like this (but for SPDIF):


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jun 26, 2022)

Zachik said:


> Any experience or recommendations for *a 2 -> 1 SPDIF switcher*?
> I am considering a DAC that has 1xUSB and 1xSPDIF (RCA) inputs, and would like to feed it from 2 sources (e.g. PC->DI-20HE and standalone streamer) each has an RCA SPDIF. I am thinking since the DAC cannot accommodate 2 SPDIF inputs, using something like this (but for SPDIF):


A better answer is probably

PC -> USB -> DI-20HE ->>>>>>>>
////// coax ////////////////// DAC
Streamer -> coax -> DI-20HE ->


----------



## Zachik

gimmeheadroom said:


> A better answer is probably
> 
> PC -> USB -> DI-20HE ->>>>>>>>
> ////// coax ////////////////// DAC
> Streamer -> coax -> DI-20HE ->


I still prefer an external switch. That would also allow me to compare Coax output of DI-20HE vs. Coax output of other DDC...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Well, not exactly


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jun 26, 2022)

Hey guys, here's a clock I haven't seen mentioned https://teac-usa.com/cg-10m-master-clock-generator

I just saw it on studio22 in Madrid, it's 1.700 euros. At the price point it looks pretty good. However, the drive level is pretty low and it's sinewave only. Meh..


----------



## dougms3

Does anyone know the specific differences between the DI-20 and the DI-20HE?


----------



## Jandu

dougms3 said:


> Does anyone know the specific differences between the DI-20 and the DI-20HE?


HE version uses its own power supply. So the supply power is regenerated.

Performance is another level or 2 better


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jun 27, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Does anyone know the specific differences between the DI-20 and the DI-20HE?


In addition to what @Jandu said, take a look at the Audio-gd website, there is a lot of info there on each product page. Also the pics are very helpful because you can see major differences like extra transformers etc.  I just wish the pics had higher resolution.

But, the audio definitely has high resolution! 

Also, the DI-20HE is bigger than the non-HE version. They are both the same width and height, but the HE version is deeper front to back.


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> In addition to what @Jandu said, take a look at the Audio-gd website, there is a lot of info there on each product page. Also the pics are very helpful because you can see major differences like extra transformers etc.  I just wish the pics had higher resolution.
> 
> But, the audio definitely has high resolution!
> 
> Also, the DI-20HE is bigger than the non-HE version. They are both the same width and height, but the HE version is deeper front to back.


Was just curious to hear perspectives.

I can see it literally has twice as much going on inside but its hard to decipher whats going on in audio-gd gear, like it was developed by a mad scientist.  If going by chip count alone it has to be the best value.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> Was just curious to hear perspectives.
> 
> I can see it literally has twice as much going on inside but its hard to decipher whats going on in audio-gd gear, like it was developed by a mad scientist.  If going by chip count alone it has to be the best value.


If you hear and feel the gear you can tell there are no games going on. It's the most solid gear I have seen. And the sound is incredible.


----------



## slazhx

Hi guys,

I need little help. After successfully upgrading FPGA (w/ Altera USB Blaster) and CPLD (w/ Xilinx USB Blaster) on my R7HE, I continued to do the FPGA on my DI-20HE. However, the program showed "no device detected when running JTAG chain debugger". Any help? (see attached pictures)

1. Followed update instruction suggested by @DACLadder posted years ago
2. I use Quartus 16 on Windows 10 / 64 bit
3. ISE 14.7 (which is not relevant here)
4. Both Altera, Xilinx USB Blasters, and the software version should be fine as I also used them to upgrade my R7HE successfully.
5. Also tried Quartus 12, didn't help.
6. Successfully did reflash Amanero firmware on DI-20.
7. Core isolation turned off as @gimmeheadroom suggested.

Thank you.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I don't know, I expect somebody will help soon. But in the meantime, make sure you followed the power on/off and connection sequence in @DACLadder document, it seems the order is important.


----------



## DACLadder

arayasg said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I need little help. After successfully upgrading FPGA (w/ Altera USB Blaster) and CPLD (w/ Xilinx USB Blaster) on my R7HE, I continued to do the FPGA on my DI-20HE. However, the program showed "no device detected when running JTAG chain debugger". Any help? (see attached pictures)
> 
> ...


The Quartus s/w is not seeing the target Altera device on the 10-pin ribbon cable.  Make sure the DI-20 is powered up before attempting. Also verify the DI-20 rear panel 10-pin header connector does not have have any visibly bent pins.  Those are the easy checks.  There is also an internal cable from the backpanel 10-pin header connector to the circuit board.  The circuit board connector may have popped loose during shipping.  

Tthe Quartus s/w sees the Blaster connected on the USB port.  Problem is the Blaster does not detect the Altera chip on the the 10-pin ribbon cable. Process of elimination and best of luck.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Unrelated question- In the instructions you created I read that during parts of the process you should disconnect the blaster. For me this is very hard due to lack of space behind my shelving. Is it possible and fine to leave the blaster connected to the jtag port at all times and when instructions call for it to be disconnected just to disconnect the PC/USB end? Or is that a bad idea? Ideally I'd like to leave the blaster connected in case I need to use it though so far I had to only once on my R8.


----------



## DACLadder

gimmeheadroom said:


> Unrelated question- In the instructions you created I read that during parts of the process you should disconnect the blaster. For me this is very hard due to lack of space behind my shelving. Is it possible and fine to leave the blaster connected to the jtag port at all times and when instructions call for it to be disconnected just to disconnect the PC/USB end? Or is that a bad idea? Ideally I'd like to leave the blaster connected in case I need to use it though so far I had to only once on my R8.


Should be OK to leave the Blaster connected on the target side.  I have for days testing f/w.  But would turn DAC/DI power off before connecting/ disconecting the USB side with 10-pin cable connected..  See ”Hardware Setup” on pags 1-2, 1-3 for proper method of connecting the Blaster for use.  Note the warning at the top of page 1-3 about connecting USB cable before attaching the 10-pin connector to the ‘target‘.
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/598/g_usb_blstr_v2.5-876789.pdf


----------



## gimmeheadroom

DACLadder said:


> Should be OK to leave the Blaster connected on the target side.  I have for days testing f/w.  But would turn DAC/DI power off before connecting/ disconecting the USB side with 10-pin cable connected..  See ”Hardware Setup” on pags 1-2, 1-3 for proper method of connecting the Blaster for use.  Note the warning at the top of page 1-3 about connecting USB cable before attaching the 10-pin connector to the ‘target‘.
> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/598/g_usb_blstr_v2.5-876789.pdf


Thank you!

I'm not sure I understand the warning there- it seems the same as what you said about powering off the device before disconnecting or connecting USB?


----------



## DACLadder

@gimmeheadroom  Just a safety measure.  You are basically connecting GND of the PC to your DI/DAC and could cause a voltage spike until things settle.  

I blew up an Off Ramp 5 DDC hot plugging HDMI I2S to a Master 7.  Blew the protection diodes on the OR5 HDMI interface.  So better safe than sorry!!


----------



## gimmeheadroom

So as long as I power off the target device before disconnecting USB all is fine, that is what you and the doc are both saying?


----------



## DACLadder

Yes...  Thinking back to the last iteration of the R2R7 and it had a Blaster built-in and always connected to the Altera chip.  Kingwa just has a blanket statement (under "Use Manual") to always power off when connecting any input or output.  

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R7/R7EN_Use.htm


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Thanks, this helps.

By the way, I have a wierd situation and have not started serious troubleshooting it yet, so I'll describe it in case anybody has any ideas.

I have a new Bluesound B100S streamer running into the DI-20HE via RCA coax (Wireworld UV) which goes from there a few places including an R8 mk2. It does not sound as good as my PC as a source which runs to the DI-20HE over USB. It sounds a little boomy to me, as if the bass has too much emphasis and the mids and upper octaves are reduced.

First thing I did was turn off the clock sync option in the Bluesound app, which helped somewhat but it still does not sound right. Running from the DI-20HE through my Mutec MC-3+ USB helped a bit more but again, it is still not as good as my fanless PC. Because the two things I tried did improve things to some small degree, it feels like jitter might be involved.

Any ideas, guys?


----------



## dougms3

If I have a jcat femto card, does anything become redundant having something like the DI-20?  Or would there be any negative effect from using both?


----------



## lator

dougms3 said:


> If I have a jcat femto card, does anything become redundant having something like the DI-20?  Or would there be any negative effect from using both?


DI-20 is not a reclocker so it will improve the sound after jcat femto card.


----------



## Articnoise

lator said:


> DI-20 is not a reclocker so it will improve the sound after jcat femto card.


Are you saying that reclockers like Innuos Phoenix USB or SOtM tX-USBultra doesn't improve sound? 

Btw DI20 reclocks the USB signal before converting it.


----------



## Articnoise

dougms3 said:


> If I have a jcat femto card, does anything become redundant having something like the DI-20?  Or would there be any negative effect from using both?


Not redundant or any negative effects. I would also recommend a good audio grade switch later on if you are looking for ultimate sound.


----------



## Mr. Sprinkles

arayasg said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I need little help. After successfully upgrading FPGA (w/ Altera USB Blaster) and CPLD (w/ Xilinx USB Blaster) on my R7HE, I continued to do the FPGA on my DI-20HE. However, the program showed "no device detected when running JTAG chain debugger". Any help? (see attached pictures)
> 
> ...



Hello,

Did you ever get this working? I have the same exact issue with my new DI-20HE. I opened it up and and the only thing disconnected inside is the small plug that is zip tied to one of the capacitors, which I assume is the plug that disables the USB firmware clearing button. I have tried two different computers, the USB drivers are working as they should but for some reason Quartus 16 doesn't seem to be able to read the FPGA chip.


----------



## slazhx

DACLadder said:


> The Quartus s/w is not seeing the target Altera device on the 10-pin ribbon cable.  Make sure the DI-20 is powered up before attempting. Also verify the DI-20 rear panel 10-pin header connector does not have have any visibly bent pins.  Those are the easy checks.  There is also an internal cable from the backpanel 10-pin header connector to the circuit board.  The circuit board connector may have popped loose during shipping.
> 
> Tthe Quartus s/w sees the Blaster connected on the USB port.  Problem is the Blaster does not detect the Altera chip on the the 10-pin ribbon cable. Process of elimination and best of luck.



I confirm DI-20 was powered up before such an attempt. The last time I checked, the internal cable was tight and looked fine. However, I will carefully recheck the 10-pin header connector as you suggest again. That's the only thing haven't checked. I will report soon. Thank you for your tip.



Mr. Sprinkles said:


> Hello,
> 
> Did you ever get this working? I have the same exact issue with my new DI-20HE. I opened it up and and the only thing disconnected inside is the small plug that is zip tied to one of the capacitors, which I assume is the plug that disables the USB firmware clearing button. I have tried two different computers, the USB drivers are working as they should but for some reason Quartus 16 doesn't seem to be able to read the FPGA chip.



I will report again after I recheck that. Btw, I am not sure whether you should connect that small plug when trying to update DI-20. I also suggest you capture what you see from Quartus so that many experts here can cleary understand and help you with that.


----------



## Mr. Sprinkles

arayasg said:


> I will report again after I recheck that. Btw, I am not sure whether you should connect that small plug when trying to update DI-20. I also suggest you capture what you see from Quartus so that many experts here can cleary understand and help you with that.


Here are the screenshots that show the correct driver is installed and the USB Blaster is working properly in Windows. Also attached is the output from Quartest that shows no device is detected doing an auto scan and when doing a JTAG chain debug.


----------



## Fibre101

anyone here with the ifi zen streamer paired with the di 20? I ordered the streamer on amazon and awaiting its arrival. Just wanted to see if there are any impressions with them together as opposed to the di 20 straight to a pc/mac.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I run Bluesound streamers into both my DI-20s over coax in addition to USB from PCs, works perfectly well. I thought the coax sounded a little boomy compared to USB input but I haven't worked out what's going on yet.


----------



## bodiebill2

Maybe it was answered before, but if so, I can not find the answer...
Is the DI-20HE's FPGA active for coax as well as USB input?
If only with coax, would this mean that the serial/parallel setting is not relevant for USB input?


----------



## Fibre101

gimmeheadroom said:


> I run Bluesound streamers into both my DI-20s over coax in addition to USB from PCs, works perfectly well. I thought the coax sounded a little boomy compared to USB input but I haven't worked out what's going on yet.


Hi, which bluesound streamer do you have? Do you prefer the pc usb or the bluesound sound? is there much of a difference? The ifi zen has a dedicated usb for audio only that is used to connect dacs/ddc similar to some other streamers out there like allo. I wonder if the difference is subtle or night and day. 

I once connected an old dvd player via coax to the di 20 and the sound was different. Felt a bit more transparent playing cd's but still need to do further testing. The older dvd players have a better coax output. When i say old, I mean early 2000's.


----------



## lator

bodiebill2 said:


> Maybe it was answered before, but if so, I can not find the answer...
> Is the DI-20HE's FPGA active for coax as well as USB input?
> If only with coax, would this mean that the serial/parallel setting is not relevant for USB input?


Big difference with USB, never tried coax input.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Maybe it was answered before, but if so, I can not find the answer...
> Is the DI-20HE's FPGA active for coax as well as USB input?
> If only with coax, would this mean that the serial/parallel setting is not relevant for USB input?


The paraller/serial setting is relevant for all inputs as far as I know. But interestingly, I found WCLK does not work in serial mode when running from the coax input. It works fine for USB input.



Fibre101 said:


> Hi, which bluesound streamer do you have? Do you prefer the pc usb or the bluesound sound? is there much of a difference?



Hi, I have a Node 2i and a B100S, most of my gear is shown if you click the blue button 

Sound quality, it seems USB is better but I have not tried to compare since I have no choice with the Bluesound. Just when I first tried it, it sounded boomy to me, unlike what I'm used to. But, this into a DI-20 and DI-20HE, I don't go direct USB to the DAC at all.



Fibre101 said:


> The ifi zen has a dedicated usb for audio only that is used to connect dacs/ddc similar to some other streamers out there like allo. I wonder if the difference is subtle or night and day.



If the zen does DSD then USB might make a difference. For PCM it should not matter. But, your ears will be the judge.



Fibre101 said:


> I once connected an old dvd player via coax to the di 20 and the sound was different. Felt a bit more transparent playing cd's but still need to do further testing. The older dvd players have a better coax output. When i say old, I mean early 2000's.



Yeah, things are often surprising and everybody hears differently and listens to different music and gear. So just set it up how it sounds best to you


----------



## bodiebill2 (Jul 5, 2022)

lator said:


> Big difference with USB, never tried coax input.



Yes, I thought I heard a difference too with USB (I seem to prefer Serial). Assuming that the P/S options a managed by the FPGA, does this mean that the FPGA is active with USB input?

P S After posting this I saw the previous answer, so this post is now less relevant


----------



## bodiebill2

A friend of mine bought
this
toslink to RCA (or vice versa) digital converter to hook up his bluray player to a Lampizator DAC with only coax input. Nothing special and pretty cheap. He could not get it to work so I offered to try it at my place. Which I did a few days ago. As the DI-20HE does not have optical input and my ultra-short throw beamer has only optical out, I always bypassed the DI-20HE when playing video or Netflix and went straight to the Holo Audio Spring 3 L2 DAC. The sound was pretty good. When I tried with the adapter, going from optical to RCA into the DI-20HE and then to the Holo DAC, I was again amazed how the sound improved in depth, bass response and realism, and how important this is even for video. This Audio-GD thing may be a strange beast but it is a real gem -- just magical how it opens up the soundstage.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Yes, I thought I heard a difference too with USB (I seem to prefer Serial). Assuming that the P/S options a managed by the FPGA, does this mean that the FPGA is active with USB input?
> 
> P S After posting this I saw the previous answer, so this post is now less relevant


You're welcome


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> A friend of mine bought
> this
> toslink to RCA (or vice versa) digital converter to hook up his bluray player to a Lampizator DAC with only coax input. Nothing special and pretty cheap. He could not get it to work so I offered to try it at my place. Which I did a few days ago. As the DI-20HE does not have optical input and my ultra-short throw beamer has only optical out, I always bypassed the DI-20HE when playing video or Netflix and went straight to the Holo Audio Spring 3 L2 DAC. The sound was pretty good. When I tried with the adapter, going from optical to RCA into the DI-20HE and then to the Holo DAC, I was again amazed how the sound improved in depth, bass response and realism, and how important this is even for video. This Audio-GD thing may be a strange beast but it is a real gem -- just magical how it opens up the soundstage.


Well, it's a 1000 thousand times the price, but I have a Mutec 1.1+ which does a lot of neat stuff including format conversions between AES/EBU and both kinds of S/PDIF. It's a nice addition if you have a mixed bag of gear, you can usually find a way to hook up anything.


----------



## myshark

Fibre101 said:


> anyone here with the ifi zen streamer paired with the di 20? I ordered the streamer on amazon and awaiting its arrival. Just wanted to see if there are any impressions with them together as opposed to the di 20 straight to a pc/mac.


I have 3 sources to hook up to my di20. zen stream, auraliti pk90usb and pc jriver.
Definitely in terms of sq, zen stream the best then auraliti and least pc jriver. All with lps.


----------



## Fibre101

myshark said:


> I have 3 sources to hook up to my di20. zen stream, auraliti pk90usb and pc jriver.
> Definitely in terms of sq, zen stream the best then auraliti and least pc jriver. All with lps.


Hi, thank you. Does the usb work well with the di 20? Any hiccups? Do you prefer the usb dedicated output of the zen streamer to the di 20 or the coax?


----------



## myshark

Fibre101 said:


> Hi, thank you. Does the usb work well with the di 20? Any hiccups? Do you prefer the usb dedicated output of the zen streamer to the di 20 or the coax?


It depends on your dac. Zen stream i am using the usb to di20, i2s to r8he. My cdp is hooked up via spdif to di20.
fyi, i also have volumio on sbc platform which in terms of sq is better than pc jriver but less than auraliti.


----------



## bodiebill2

For the last few days I have had a Grimm MU1 on loan from a friend. It is a Dutch streamer/DDC with a carefully designed FPGA. Not the kind of device I would crave, if only for its Roon centeredness, lack of DSD output and steep price tag. But I must admit that it sounds incredibly well, even with Qobuz material and resampling everything to 192/176. When added downstream after my DI-20HE using AES/EBU, the resulting sound was absolutely gorgeous: palpable, big and real. Not worth the €10k for me, but it makes you think what else could be possible chaining up the DI-20HE with another DDC/FPGA. I know some here tried that with Mutec... Would be nice if some could share their experiences with something similar...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> For the last few days I have had a Grimm MU1 on loan from a friend. It is a Dutch streamer/DDC with a carefully designed FPGA. Not the kind of device I would crave, if only for its Roon centeredness, lack of DSD output and steep price tag. But I must admit that it sounds incredibly well, even with Qobuz material and resampling everything to 192/176. When added downstream after my DI-20HE using AES/EBU, the resulting sound was absolutely gorgeous: palpable, big and real. Not worth the €10k for me, but it makes you think what else could be possible chaining up the DI-20HE with another DDC/FPGA. I know some here tried that with Mutec... Would be nice if some could share their experiences with something similar...


I have the DI-20HE and the Mutec MC-3+ USB. I would say the effect of stacking DDCs can only be small increments, and it's not a way to maximize value of your dollar/euro/pound etc. I didn't get them to stack, in my system they have different purposes. But they are set up so they can be used separately or together. I guess if you have either one you are already 99% there, maybe more. When you add another one, you get that elusive 1% gain for 2X the money...


----------



## DecentLevi

801evan said:


> Usb Optical cables are optical on the data lines. But for convenience, the power and ground is copper lines. These are primarily designed for a office printer that's in the next room and hasn't discovered network printing yet. 🤣
> 
> Man, I've tried 3 or 4 brands. The OG is the Corning optical cable. It was the best AND usb 2.0 compatible. Monoprice is actually hit or miss sometimes with DACs. Thing is it runs hot. It does 15v in the vbus and that's why I've gone through 5 of them. And u was paying premium for used ones coz it's a dead product but....it was worth it? And no competition. I even modded it where I cut the power and ground and did a power bypass on the tail end. It was glorious!!! But that only lasted a few months. I couldn't do it on the monoprice and the cosemi....it can work on flash drives but not on DACs. So sad.
> 
> ...


Hey Evan, I'm still interested in trying the USB optical route, to see how far I can take USB sound into a DDC. Is this still your current course, or have you progressed to anything new or different?


801evan said:


> It's only the Corning I can hack. But it has a overheating and reliability issue so they don't last long. Stock, the Corning is a bit better.
> 
> 
> It's dedicated power conditioner to  dedicated multistage voltage regulators to each device. So technically you can still do a multistage filtering to a Spdif purifier after the spdif out of the di20he as an option.
> ...


Quoting this again - please confirm if I understood correctly?
- Corning and Monoprice USB optical cables are both min. 10 meters and require 15v DC 
- Stock without any mods, the Corning is best
- Overall you prefer the Monoprice USB optical with iDefender externally powered
- Cosemi is 1.5 meters and 5v but you couldn't hack it

Questions:
- Have you tried Cosemi with iDefender and 5v external power? 
(And how was it? I already have a very good custom-made DC 5v LPS with dual outputs so a USB optical option with 5v would be ideal for me.)
- Was it the Monoprice or Corning that had reliability issues, or both?
- Which of these or newer solution would you recommend?

Thanks!!


----------



## 801evan (Jul 11, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> - Have you tried Cosemi with iDefender and 5v external power?


Yes. This is what i do.



DecentLevi said:


> Is this still your current course, or have you progressed to anything new or different?


Still my course. Ive been breaking in my psus and doing tests on different component parts since we last talked. Funny coz yesterday I was planning to mod the Apple airport express to have multi filter psu. But it doesn't do MQA, that goes the same for Apple tv, which only does tidal connect but no mqa. So both projects are dead.  Disregard Corning (discontinued). Disregard Monoprice (too long). And disregard Cosemi (bought out). The cosemi, I couldn't hack it to be true galvanic isolated by power bypassing the downstream end but it's still a good cable.

So what was Cosemi is now Mobix labs. Just re-branded and should be the same. You have to hit them an email and hopefully they can make you a short one. You will need an uptone uspcb 2x if you were to follow my chain. I made a silver occ ultrashort USB A to B adapter and it's much better ofc.

I do dual idefender plus external power on the upstream and downstream of the USB optical cable adding a purifier 3 after it brings so much sonic gains it's crazy.

The end result is I can drive the Susvara with a 142mw amp. Proving the need to have a speaker amp and high gain is false. They are just fighting the noise floor and interference in their chain.


----------



## DecentLevi

801evan said:


> Yes. This is what i do.
> 
> 
> Still my course. Ive been breaking in my psus and doing tests on different component parts since we last talked. Funny coz yesterday I was planning to mod the Apple airport express to have multi filter psu. But it doesn't do MQA, that goes the same for Apple tv, which only does tidal connect but no mqa. So both projects are dead.  Disregard Corning (discontinued). Disregard Monoprice (too long). And disregard Cosemi (bought out). The cosemi, I couldn't hack it to be true galvanic isolated by power bypassing the downstream end but it's still a good cable.
> ...


Thank you! Sounds interesting. So I suppose I would get a Mobix Labs USB-A optical cable (hopefully the shorter length will be cheaper), iDefender, iPurifier and Uptone USPCB A>B Adapter...
But iFi iDefender output is male and Uptone USPCB seems to only come in male-to-male, so should I ask either iFi or Uptone for a custom male-to-female so they're compatible? 



801evan said:


> You will need an uptone uspcb 2x if you were to follow my chain. I made a silver occ ultrashort USB A to B adapter and it's much better ofc.


Not sure what the reason is for 2 of those if you already have 2 iDefenders? And since the downstream DC output is isolated anyway, does both sides still make a difference?
Do you have a custom USB A to B adapter you'd rather recommend?

I don't mean this to be a one way street, I'll share my results too down the line.


----------



## 801evan (Jul 11, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> Thank you! Sounds interesting. So I suppose I would get a Mobix Labs USB-A optical cable (hopefully the shorter length will be cheaper), iDefender, iPurifier and Uptone USPCB A>B Adapter...
> But iFi iDefender output is male and Uptone USPCB seems to only come in male-to-male, so should I ask either iFi or Uptone for a custom male-to-female so they're compatible?
> 
> 
> ...


Better power on the upstream brings more soundstage and smoothness. Better power on the downstream brings in more dynamics, and blacks.

You will figure out what adapter and which model of ifi defender and purifier to get. In the end, you will need two uptone uspcb A to B. Other than that. It's my diy silver occ adapters


----------



## dougms3

Is it worth getting the DI20HE if I'm only using a coax connection to the DAC?

How does it compare to the i2s?


----------



## Igor375375

Good afternoon.
Considering the DI20HE for purchase, 
suggested wiring diagram:
PS => USB => DI20HE => I2S => R-28 2022.
Dear DI20HE users, please answer a few questions:
1) what firmware version does the DI20HE come with?
2) which firmware version do you think is the best ?
3) What is the meaning of these modes: "P" (Parallel) means the signal will be processed internally by the 32 bit (PCM) or 64 bit (DSD) parallel mode. "S" (Serial) means the signal will be processed by the serial mode. " ?


----------



## bodiebill2

dougms3 said:


> Is it worth getting the DI20HE if I'm only using a coax connection to the DAC?
> 
> How does it compare to the i2s?



I believe yes. I was mostly using the I2S output, but had very good results with coax. I am now switching between I2S and AES/EBU depending on the type of music. These connections have subtly different sound signatures, where the cables themselves of course also play a role that cannot be omitted in comparisons. A matter of taste, not of better/worse in my opinion.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> Is it worth getting the DI20HE if I'm only using a coax connection to the DAC?
> 
> How does it compare to the i2s?



What device do you have for coax output? What DAC are you using?



Igor375375 said:


> Good afternoon.
> Considering the DI20HE for purchase,
> suggested wiring diagram:
> PS => USB => DI20HE => I2S => R-28 2022.
> ...


I use the stock firmware. What version it is depends on when you buy the DI-20HE. I am sure the guys can answer your other questions.


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> I use the stock firmware. What version it is depends on when you buy the DI-20HE


Thank you. Kingwa answer:
" It default install the 4.075 firmware. "


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Igor375375 said:


> Thank you. Kingwa answer:
> " It default install the 4.075 firmware. "


Unfortunately, I don't think there is a way to check the device to see what firmware is installed. I think @DACLadder knows how to use a checksum from the JTAG tool.

Anyway, I use coax, AES, and IIS from my DI-20HE and I have no problems. It is a great DDC and beautifully engineered, I'm sure you would like it


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think there is a way to check the device to see what firmware is installed


I enjoyed interacting with Kingwa. I think if you send him the serial number of the DI20HE, he will answer which firmware was installed in the stock.


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> It is a great DDC and beautifully engineered, I'm sure you would like it


Thanks for the tips. I hope to be satisfied )))


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Igor375375 said:


> I enjoyed interacting with Kingwa. I think if you send him the serial number of the DI20HE, he will answer which firmware was installed in the stock.


Sure, you are right. I just meant to explain there is no option to display the firmware level. It would be a nice addition to have it in the settings for all the Audio-gd gear.


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> What device do you have for coax output? What DAC are you using?
> 
> 
> I use the stock firmware. What version it is depends on when you buy the DI-20HE. I am sure the guys can answer your other questions.


I have the denafrips ares ii.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> I have the denafrips ares ii.



I guess it would depend whether you plan to upgrade your DAC in the future, and whether you would go with an Audio-gd DAC or stay with Denafrips.

DI-20HE is a good upgrade path but if you stay with Aeres II the HE is overkill, a base model DI-20 is cheaper and would most likely be good enough. Or you could use a DDC from Denafrips with your existing DAC.

I think we don't know enough about your goals.


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> I guess it would depend whether you plan to upgrade your DAC in the future, and whether you would go with an Audio-gd DAC or stay with Denafrips.
> 
> DI-20HE is a good upgrade path but if you stay with Aeres II the HE is overkill, a base model DI-20 is cheaper and would most likely be good enough. Or you could use a DDC from Denafrips with your existing DAC.
> 
> I think we don't know enough about your goals.


Im not sure about upgrading the dac at this time but i am considering it.  

The ares is nice but I'm partial to audio gd.  I'm also not thrilled with the inability to use both outputs simultaneously.

I think the HE is a better value might as well get it instead of the di20 since i know I'll end up upgrading that in the future.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> Im not sure about upgrading the dac at this time but i am considering it.
> 
> The ares is nice but I'm partial to audio gd.  I'm also not thrilled with the inability to use both outputs simultaneously.
> 
> I think the HE is a better value might as well get it instead of the di20 since i know I'll end up upgrading that in the future.


Personally I don't like S/PDIF but in some cases there is no better choice.

Check the size of the HE and make sure you have space, most of the Audio-gd gear is not desktop-compatible.


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> Personally I don't like S/PDIF but in some cases there is no better choice.
> 
> Check the size of the HE and make sure you have space, most of the Audio-gd gear is not desktop-compatible.


I'm not a big fan of it either but unfortunately it's the only option with the ares.

I made "accomodations" for the master 19 amp on my desk.  I'm all too familiar with the size of audio gd gear 

Even though its cumbersome, generates an insane amount of heat and takes up an enormous amount of real estate on my desk.  The relationship is like this.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> I'm not a big fan of it either but unfortunately it's the only option with the ares.
> 
> I made "accomodations" for the master 19 amp on my desk.  I'm all too familiar with the size of audio gd gear
> 
> Even though its cumbersome, generates an insane amount of heat and takes up an enormous amount of real estate on my desk.  The relationship is like this.


Ok, you're moving in the right direction. Master 19, DI-20HE coming.. before we know it your Aeres II is sold on the classifieds and you're a proud daddy of a new R7 MK2


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> Ok, you're moving in the right direction. Master 19, DI-20HE coming.. before we know it your Aeres II is sold on the classifieds and you're a proud daddy of a new R7 MK2


Lol no r7, I was considering maybe the r8.

Anyway I pulled the trigger on the DI20HE, I'll see how much of a difference it makes soon.


----------



## fanteskiller

dougms3 said:


> I have the denafrips ares ii.


U18 obviously better than denafrips ares ii usb input?


----------



## dougms3

fanteskiller said:


> U18 obviously better than denafrips ares ii usb input?


Probably.

The ares is an entry level r2r dac.  While its very good for the price, it doesnt have alot of features.


----------



## christal

Hello guys,

I believe this is my first post here. I consider buying *Audio GD DI-20HE *to connect to my *Gustard X26 Pro *via I2S. Would this be a good combination in your opinion? Or *DI-20HE *will be overkill for the* X26 Pro?*

My question is: Are they fully compatible? How can I match the exact HDMI pins on both devices?

I connected my DAC to *Yamaha A-S 2200 *amplifier and* Klipsch Forte III *speakers*.*

Thanks for your time!


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jul 12, 2022)

Hello and welcome to one of the best threads on the forum 

I don't know the answer but there are guys here who have experience with Gustard gear who can probably answer you. Just wait a bit and I am sure you will get some advice.

As far as I2S pinout, it's a good question. Audio-gd uses the PS Audio standard (if I remember correctly!) and the diagrams are found on the website here http://audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20HE/DI20HEEN_Use.htm at the bottom of the page. Unless the guys at Shenzhen/Gustard can advise you regarding Audio-gd pinout, you just have to compare your X26 pinout to the 4 options on the Audio-gd page.

Be aware, the DI-20 and DI-20HE are bigger than most people might expect. So check the dimensions to make sure they will be ok in your setup. They are not desktop gear but rather belong in shelves/racks.


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> Hello and welcome to one of the best threads on the forum
> 
> I don't know the answer but there are guys here who have experience with Gustard gear who can probably answer you. Just wait a bit and I am sure you will get some advice.
> 
> ...


I asked Kingwa about the size of the DI20 and he said its W240 X L240 X H85 mm

So about 9.5" x 9.5" x 3.4".

Should have asked about the DI20HE but I know its longer.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> I asked Kingwa about the size of the DI20 and he said its W240 X L240 X H85 mm
> 
> So about 9.5" x 9.5" x 3.4".
> 
> Should have asked about the DI20HE but I know its longer.


The dimensions are all listed on the product pages. No reason to ask


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> The dimensions are all listed on the product pages. No reason to ask


I think he recently added the dimensions because I looked at the specs page and it wasnt there.  Thats why I asked lol.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> I think he recently added the dimensions because I looked at the specs page and it wasnt there.  Thats why I asked lol.


I have 4 pieces of Audio-gd gear in this room and I found the measurements of all of them on the website before I ordered them, starting a few years ago. The measurements have been there for years on the Specs page.

I remember recently @FredA pointed me to the DI-20HE's clock output impedance spec which I could not find on the specs page, it was on the "Use Manual" page.

The website is frustrating, sometimes I can't find some piece of info so I look at the Chinese version in Chrome


----------



## Jandu

gimmeheadroom said:


> ...
> The website is frustrating, sometimes I can't find some piece of info ....



Agreed. However, I think I rather have Kingwa spending his time on the gear than on the website. LOL


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> I have 4 pieces of Audio-gd gear in this room and I found the measurements of all of them on the website before I ordered them, starting a few years ago. The measurements have been there for years on the Specs page.
> 
> I remember recently @FredA pointed me to the DI-20HE's clock output impedance spec which I could not find on the specs page, it was on the "Use Manual" page.
> 
> The website is frustrating, sometimes I can't find some piece of info so I look at the Chinese version in Chrome


From the pics, and user manual, it's 50ohm. Something that can likely be costumized to 75ohm.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> From the pics, and user manual, it's 50ohm. Something that can likely be costumized to 75ohm.



@gimmeheadroom was talking about clock output. 50 Ohm -- or 75 Ohm upon request (like I have) -- is for the clock input.


----------



## sajunky

bodiebill2 said:


> @gimmeheadroom was talking about clock output. 50 Ohm -- or 75 Ohm upon request (like I have) -- is for the clock input.


The clock output is 50 Ohm. I am sure it can be customised for 75 Ohm. If you have such need just ask when ordering.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> From the pics, and user manual, it's 50ohm. Something that can likely be costumized to 75ohm.


What's involved in this? Does it require a different transmitter, or is it just the panel connector?


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> What's involved in this? Does it require a different transmitter, or is it just the panel connector?


Changing the connector and a resistor.


----------



## dougms3

Question regarding the chain with a DI20HE.

If its connected this way,

PC > USB > DI20HE > coaxial cable > Denafrips Ares II   

What is the max sampling rate I will be able to run?  Will I be able to use DSD or is that not possible with the coax connection?


----------



## FredA

dougms3 said:


> Question regarding the chain with a DI20HE.
> 
> If its connected this way,
> 
> ...


Dsd over SPDIF is supported up to dsd128 if the Denafrips allows it. The spdif is good for at least 192k. The bnc spdif (acss) could go up to 384k. There could be compatibility issues but so far  the issues encountered were with Chord dacs.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jul 13, 2022)

Fibre101 said:


> This might've been answered before but I'd like to ask whether the regular di20 really benefits from a good power cable. I use the stock 18 AWG power cord it came with and was wondering if a good power cord will increase its performance. If so what cable thickness or sheilded power cords can you reccomend that doesnt break the bank?


Much to my amazement, the AC power cable to the DI20 (IMO) has actually been one of the biggest upgrades! Can't pinpoint exactly the difference at the moment, but it had to do with blacker background, better sense of realism and soundstage, also dynamics I think. Generally the same benefits one usually gets from decent power conditioning into an audio component. Especially with mine, being connected to a monstrous power conditioner I use for my whole system. I got great results from a blue flat rectangular / circle-shaped highly shielded AC power cable, and even a standard IEC AC cable, that was somewhat thicker than most; which was also improved with 6-8 industrial grade ferrite clamps that are especially rated to quell noise in lower frequencies. If you'd like, I can tell you which cable it was I got when I get back home.

Alas, my favorite AC power cable is now used for new amp duties, so I am on the lookout for a new AC cable for the DI20. Any good recommendations, for under around $100 or less? I'd like to experiment with a couple and see what I like the best on which component.

Also someone mentioned about vibration absorption feet under the DI20. That has also been the secondary biggest improvement on mine. I experimented with a couple materials and settled on a 50 duro (firmness rating) sheet of sorbothane with one on each corner under the DDC. For me, the improvement was definite and is not taking away a single thing.


----------



## dougms3

DecentLevi said:


> Much to my amazement, the AC power cable to the DI20 (IMO) has actually been one of the biggest upgrades! Can't pinpoint exactly the difference at the moment, but it had to do with blacker background, better sense of realism and soundstage, also dynamics I think. Generally the same benefits one usually gets from decent power conditioning into an audio component. Especially with mine, being connected to a monstrous power conditioner I use for my whole system. I got great results from a blue flat rectangular / circle-shaped highly shielded AC power cable, and even a standard IEC AC cable, that was somewhat thicker than most; which was also improved with 6-8 industrial grade ferrite clamps that are especially rated to quell noise in lower frequencies. If you'd like, I can tell you which cable it was I got when I get back home.
> 
> Alas, my favorite AC power cable is now used for new amp duties, so I am on the lookout for a new AC cable for the DI20. Any good recommendations, for under around $100 or less? I'd like to experiment with a couple and see what I like the best on which component.
> 
> Also someone mentioned about vibration absorption feet under the DI20. That has also been the secondary biggest improvement on mine. I experimented with a couple materials and settled on a 50 duro (firmness rating) sheet of sorbothane with one on each corner under the DDC. For me, the improvement was definite and is not taking away a single thing.


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aliexpress-cables.963919/page-5

I've been experimenting with some of these aliexpress knockoffs and found them to be quite good.  Compared with mid-fi level stuff and found them to be good enough that I replaced them with the knockoffs in my system.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

DecentLevi said:


> Much to my amazement, the AC power cable to the DI20 (IMO) has actually been one of the biggest upgrades! Can't pinpoint exactly the difference at the moment, but it had to do with blacker background, better sense of realism and soundstage, also dynamics I think. Generally the same benefits one usually gets from decent power conditioning into an audio component. Especially with mine, being connected to a monstrous power conditioner I use for my whole system. I got great results from a blue flat rectangular / circle-shaped highly shielded AC power cable, and even a standard IEC AC cable, that was somewhat thicker than most; which was also improved with 6-8 industrial grade ferrite clamps that are especially rated to quell noise in lower frequencies. If you'd like, I can tell you which cable it was I got when I get back home.
> 
> Alas, my favorite AC power cable is now used for new amp duties, so I am on the lookout for a new AC cable for the DI20. Any good recommendations, for under around $100 or less? I'd like to experiment with a couple and see what I like the best on which component.
> 
> Also someone mentioned about vibration absorption feet under the DI20. That has also been the secondary biggest improvement on mine. I experimented with a couple materials and settled on a 50 duro (firmness rating) sheet of sorbothane with one on each corner under the DDC. For me, the improvement was definite and is not taking away a single thing.


I use Kingwa's cables and while I have not compared, they seem of very good quality and build, and I'm happy with how my system sounds overall. For the money I think they should be considered, they're right at your price point.


----------



## KZCloud89 (Jul 14, 2022)

Will this i2S cable work between DI-20HE and R28?   https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800069559032.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.682d38davUqq1n&mp=1
It mentioned under description #9 compatible with Audio-gd DDC and DAC...

Thanks

Edit:  The link doesn't work keep going back to the front page


----------



## FredA (Jul 14, 2022)

KZCloud89 said:


> Will this i2S cable work between DI-20HE and R28?   https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800069559032.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.682d38davUqq1n&mp=1
> It mentioned under description #9 compatible with Audio-gd DDC and DAC...
> 
> Thanks
> ...


Yes. As long as you confirm it's for audio-gd when asked on the message window. And even if you don't, assuming there is no selection error.


----------



## KZCloud89

Oh many thanks!


----------



## FredA

No problem. This cable works really well, excellent sound.


----------



## KZCloud89

Sounds good.  Now lets get in touch with Kingwa and get one these DI stateside


----------



## Jandu

KZCloud89 said:


> Will this i2S cable work between DI-20HE and R28?   https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800069559032.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.682d38davUqq1n&mp=1
> It mentioned under description #9 compatible with Audio-gd DDC and DAC...
> 
> Thanks
> ...


Can't open your link. If you are connecting 2 AGD products using IIS, any HDMI configured cable would work. The shorter seems to be better than longer length.


----------



## FredA

Jandu said:


> Can't open your link. If you are connecting 2 AGD products using IIS, any HDMI configured cable would work. The shorter seems to be better than longer length.


This cable is not a regular hdmi with all lines. Only the required ones for i2s. Hence the the affordable price for a silver cable. So it has to be configured for audio-gd.


----------



## dougms3

KZCloud89 said:


> Will this i2S cable work between DI-20HE and R28?   https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800069559032.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.682d38davUqq1n&mp=1
> It mentioned under description #9 compatible with Audio-gd DDC and DAC...
> 
> Thanks
> ...



I think @DenverW may have purchased a cable from them before.


----------



## sajunky

Jandu said:


> Can't open your link. If you are connecting 2 AGD products using IIS, any HDMI configured cable would work. The shorter seems to be better than longer length.


Try this. Removed tracking information.


----------



## KZCloud89

sajunky said:


> Try this. Removed tracking information.


Yes that's the one thanks.  I need about .75 meter long for my setup.  Hopefully that won't degrade the data transfer signal too much.


----------



## DenverW

sajunky said:


> Try this. Removed tracking information.


Yep, thats the store that sent me a cable that wasn't wired correctly, then told me how wrong I was when it didn't work.  Bad experience.  They used the wrong format, and I didn't have a pleasant time chatting with them about it.  Queenway.  I'd try a different vendor, if I were you.


----------



## FredA

KZCloud89 said:


> Yes that's the one thanks.  I need about .75 meter long for my setup.  Hopefully that won't degrade the data transfer signal too much.


No. My fiend uses that same length with no issue.


----------



## KZCloud89

DenverW said:


> Yep, thats the store that sent me a cable that wasn't wired correctly, then told me how wrong I was when it didn't work.  Bad experience.  They used the wrong format, and I didn't have a pleasant time chatting with them about it.  Queenway.  I'd try a different vendor, if I were you.


Thx for the heads up.  I will look into other options.


----------



## KZCloud89

FredA said:


> No. My fiend uses that same length with no issue.


Good to know thx!


----------



## FredA

KZCloud89 said:


> Thx for the heads up.  I will look into other options.


I know at least 10-15 person who got that cable from that same seller without any issue. So there is always a risk i guess.


----------



## KZCloud89

FredA said:


> No. My fiend uses that same length with no issue.





FredA said:


> I know at least 10-15 person who got that cable from that same seller without any issue. So there is always a risk i guess.


The bright side is that they probably got plenty of orders from us and got better at it.


----------



## dougms3

KZCloud89 said:


> The bright side is that they probably got plenty of orders from us and got better at it.


I find that the percentage of error with some of these aliexpress sellers is fairly high.  

In the past 3 years, I've had 3 cables that were either improperly wired or nonfunctioning.  I guess its less than 10 % of the cables I've ordered but I think thats pretty high for selling at the retail level.

Many of the aliexpress sellers will custom make you a cable from whatever cable you want, as long as you provide a pinout.  Communication is sometimes a little rough though.


----------



## sajunky

DenverW said:


> Yep, thats the store that sent me a cable that wasn't wired correctly, then told me how wrong I was when it didn't work.  Bad experience.  They used the wrong format, and I didn't have a pleasant time chatting with them about it.  Queenway.  I'd try a different vendor, if I were you.


The same store may have different links on Aliexpress for different use. Unless you have a record and compare the address (it should be identical from left to the first question mark), there is no assurance that the product has the same wiring.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Several people here recommended Wireworld to me, I think the cables are very good and a lot of them have been on sale lately even here.

I don't know what gear you have but be aware some of the Audio-gd DACs have HDMI ports which are upside down relative to the one on the DI-20/HE. If you have a situation like that you will need a longer cable than you might think since you will have to twist it to plug in both ends.


----------



## KZCloud89

gimmeheadroom said:


> Several people here recommended Wireworld to me, I think the cables are very good and a lot of them have been on sale lately even here.
> 
> I don't know what gear you have but be aware some of the Audio-gd DACs have HDMI ports which are upside down relative to the one on the DI-20/HE. If you have a situation like that you will need a longer cable than you might think since you will have to twist it to plug in both ends.


I was looking all over for a Wireworld Chroma 7 1 meter but nowhere to be found so went ahead and order the Ali one.  We will see.

The R28 HDMI port is on its side so looks like I only have to twist the cable 90 degree.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jul 15, 2022)

There is so so much confusing information about DDC's out there.

Originally the purpose of these was to allow one who had a dac without USB input to use a PC as a source.

Now- many say i2s is better.  Even balanced digital is better than USB according to some reports.  So of course- we are being convinced to buy these ddc's even if we have a good usb input on our dacs.

My hunch is that these DDC's are improving sound because they galvanically isolate, reclock, regenerate, and have a much better PS than a PC; and that the transfer to a different digital format is not necessarily doing much. Probably the quality of isolation, reclocking, and noise reduction is much more central than the usb, i2s, or aes/eub issue.
In fact, throughout this forum there are multiple comparisons of the DI's outputs and I believe strongly that 90% of the differences which lead people to prefer one medium over the other is because the cables they are using to compare are different.  You cant compare a 28awg copper i2s to a 15awg silver cryo treated AES/EBU to determine which is better because it is an unfair comparison.  All cables must be designed exactly the same in substance, thickness, geometry, insulation, and every other factor to make a comparison of one medium to another.  My hunch is that if the cables used in these comparisons were EXACTLY equal in build- the sonics would be very very close- and perhaps almost indistinguishable.  I believe therefore- that USB may also be just as good as the other mediums.

Also, today- all decent dacs have good usb inputs- be it the Xmos, Amenero, etc.....

So I wonder if a usb to i2s or AES/EUB conversion is any better than a USB to USB regenerator assuming cable structure is equal and the re-clocker, isolator, regenerator is equal.

I own both a SOTM txusb ultra and a DI-20HE.  When using an intona isolator and a ultra low noise PS to bring the SOTM up to par with the DI , it's about a tie to me when feeding the R-7HE dac with the cables I have. I recently upgraded my usb cable on the output of the SOTM and now IMHO it exceeds the DI using the I2s cable I have.

Any feeling from others on this subject?


----------



## Jandu

rsbrsvp said:


> There is so so much confusing information about DDC's out there.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




Just curious: what is the price comparison between the two options you have mentioned? Most users would like to know how they compared in sound quality as well as how much are the options. Most would just consider or try out the lower price option, if they sound equally good, unless one or more of the items are already in the system or the configuration synergy is better.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Jul 15, 2022)

The SOTM and PS and Intona cost more..  My intention is NOT to get into price issues- but technology.  Also, My intention is not to sell anyone on my theory but to create intellectual discussion.

The headline of my suggested discussion is: Is DDC really something that makes sense- or is it all about the isolation, relocking, etc- and usb is just as good?  And also- is I2s, COAX, AES, etc better or worse than each other- or it is cable differences we are hearing?  I myself do not have clear answers to these questions...


----------



## FredA (Jul 15, 2022)

rsbrsvp said:


> The SOTM and PS and Intona cost more..  My intention is NOT to get into price issues- but technology.  Also, My intention is not to sell anyone on my theory but to create intellectual discussion.
> 
> The headline of my suggested discussion is: Is DDC really something that makes sense- or is it all about the isolation, relocking, etc- and usb is just as good?  And also- is I2s, COAX, AES, etc better or worse than each other- or it is cable differences we are hearing?


The latest usb input on Audio-gd's latest dacs is excellent. The di20he only brings a small improvement. But it has other advantages. FWs do not all sound the same, nor does the parallel mode vs serial. Same with i2s cables or any digital cable. So you can fine-tune the sound to your likings. 

The older usb input can't compare.

It is all about noise as audio-gd's dacs are not using the clock of the incoming signal.


----------



## dougms3

rsbrsvp said:


> There is so so much confusing information about DDC's out there.
> 
> Originally the purpose of these was to allow one who had a dac without USB input to use a PC as a source.
> 
> ...


Interesting argument.

The quality of the cables brings up an x factor.  I2s is considered the most ideal pathway but if the cable for the other inputs is much higher quality, I'd imagine the higher quality connection is more important.

I have an audioquest carbon coax cable and a cheap knockoff cable coming in next week.  I wanted to compare to see how much of a difference the aq carbon makes if any.  Will test it out on the di20.

Got my di20he today and i willbabsolutely handle carefully with an umbrella.  As expected always packaged well. Can't wait to plug it in tonight.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

rsbrsvp said:


> The SOTM and PS and Intona cost more..  My intention is NOT to get into price issues- but technology.  Also, My intention is not to sell anyone on my theory but to create intellectual discussion.
> 
> The headline of my suggested discussion is: Is DDC really something that makes sense- or is it all about the isolation, relocking, etc- and usb is just as good?  And also- is I2s, COAX, AES, etc better or worse than each other- or it is cable differences we are hearing?  I myself do not have clear answers to these questions...



To me a good DDC or several is an essential switchboard to connect all kinds of gear. Just one example, how can a PC talk to AES/EBU devices? Pro gear is pretty much 100% AES/EBU or AESid and 75 ohm clocks. If you have a mix of pro gear and consumer gear you need a good DDC.

S/PDIF coax is rated to 24/192, optical to 24/96. AES/EBU is good to 24/192. If you listen to PCM up to those rates, the downsides to S/PDIF are only the lousy cabling and connectors and SCMS if your device supports it. Of those three, AES/EBU is obviously the way to go with better cable, better connectors, and no SCMS.

I2S is better when you need higher data rates sometime in the possible future... DSD256 and above aren't happening on S/PDIF or AES/EBU. I wish they had used locking connectors, but the idea of repurposing HDMI cables is definitely smart.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

KZCloud89 said:


> I was looking all over for a Wireworld Chroma 7 1 meter but nowhere to be found so went ahead and order the Ali one.  We will see.
> 
> The R28 HDMI port is on its side so looks like I only have to twist the cable 90 degree.


Chroma 7 is out of production and I think even so is 8, but I found plenty of Chroma 8 available online.

Anyway, you need the _Sidewinder Edition_


----------



## Jandu

rsbrsvp said:


> The SOTM and PS and Intona cost more..  My intention is NOT to get into price issues- but technology.  Also, My intention is not to sell anyone on my theory but to create intellectual discussion.
> 
> The headline of my suggested discussion is: Is DDC really something that makes sense- or is it all about the isolation, relocking, etc- and usb is just as good?  And also- is I2s, COAX, AES, etc better or worse than each other- or it is cable differences we are hearing?  I myself do not have clear answers to these questions...



Thanks, for the quick reply. Not an easy answer to some of these questions. Depends on how a certain connection is made and how much care was used to move the signal or isolate it from noise. Even on a good unit, not all the connections are made equal and a lot of time will have different sound. 

If the length of a cable makes a difference, it is too finite to determine whether anything else also contributing to it.

Your comparison is valid since it is connecting from the same source and go to the same DAC.


----------



## dougms3

Had to rearrange some stuff to make room for the DI20HE, its bigger than I expected.

Only been listening for a few hours but first impressions are that the noise level is unbelievably low.  Everything is improved, I mean everything which is really surprising because I couldn't get DSD to work with the Denafrips ares II and its limited to 24/192 via coax vs the DSD512 upsampling I was using before.

It is quite a big difference and its only about 1% burned in at this point.

This is not good, I'm going to go crazy wondering what dsd512 sounds like with this.


----------



## DecentLevi

rsbrsvp said:


> My cable manufacturer believes S/PDIF can better than BNC.  Why?  Yes- BNC is exactly 75ohm and SPDIF may be 1/10 of 1% off of 75 ohm.  But coax only allows for very thin gauge wire.  Using RCA terminations in SPDIF he can make OCC sliver as thick as 12awg- and he believes this thick gauge is critical to the delivery of the signal and will make a substantial sonic difference..


Oh, who is your cable manufacturer? And if you've gotten one from him, which other s/pdif cables have you compared it to?


----------



## Articnoise

rsbrsvp said:


> So I wonder if a usb to i2s or AES/EUB conversion is any better than a USB to USB regenerator assuming cable structure is equal and the re-clocker, isolator, regenerator is equal.



I believe they are equal nowadays and its all boil down to which type of output that sound best on your source and which input that sounds best on your DAC. Of course this also implies that equally good cables are used.


----------



## dougms3

For the DI20HE, does anyone know the specifics of what these settings do?

*The 1st display element :*
       "P" (Parallel) means the signal will            be processed internally by the 32 bit (PCM) or 64 bit (DSD) parallel            mode . "S" (Serial) means the signal will be processed by the serial            mode.
*The 2nd display element :*
       "C" (Clock) means the Clk OUT on the            backplate outputs a 256fs main clock , "L" (LRCK/WCLK) means the output is            the word clock .


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> The latest usb input on Audio-gd's latest dacs is excellent. The di20he only brings a small improvement. But it has other advantages. FWs do not all sound the same, nor does the parallel mode vs serial. Same with i2s cables or any digital cable. So you can fine-tune the sound to your likings.
> 
> The older usb input can't compare.
> 
> It is all about noise as audio-gd's dacs are not using the clock of the incoming signal.


Exactly how I feel.  Top of the line USB inputs will not need a DDC.  A good USB reclocker/isolator may be somewhat helpful.

DDC is for cases were the USB input is not up to par and if you want a to have multiple options to change things around.: Different firmware, different connections, Parallel vs serial, etc....

USB inputs are certainly getting better and better.  I'm not sure how to technically measure how good a usb input is vs a spdif, coax, aes/ebu, etc.....

I think the many many pages of discussion about which ddc output is better is total bluff and no one can prove conclusively that one output is better than another unless the cables used were identical in every way and the quality of the inputs on our dacs are equally good.  Nothing wrong with sharing our experiences- but just important to mention that our experiments are scientifically very flawed and we need to be careful about the conclusions we make.

If I were to make one suggestion to Kingwa for one change in future editions of the DI-20, it would be:  Add USB output...   Why not???  even more flexibility this way.


----------



## sajunky

rsbrsvp said:


> Exactly how I feel. Top of the line USB inputs will not need a DDC. A good USB reclocker/isolator may be somewhat helpful.


You don't need reclockers, these would break asynchronous data transfers. This is a feature USB introduced to the audio equipment, you never heard about before. Early USB implementations didn't work in such mode. Now, with modern USB receivers it is the most important to maintain asynchronous transfers, so a receiver can use a high precision internal clock. Reclocking devices are not required in this case, even harmful. It is why it is correct what you say that top of the line devices do not need a DDC. However... 

You need a galvanic isolation on USB port. Problem is that USB protocol require DC signaling for handshaking. In practice it is difficult to do and many implementations are incomplete. It is why converters USB to S/PDIF come handy and are not expensive.

Top of the line devices use clever idea to place galvanic isolator after USB receiver, on the internal I2S lines. Asynchronous data delivery is maintained if done correctly. Unfortunately not all brands do care about, as they decided to go easy way and reclock whether needed or not. Audio GD in their R-8/R-7 (2021 and later) DACs use bi-directional isolator, there is no reclocking on USB port, no added jitter. So theoretically R-8/R-7 do not need DDC, right? 

In practice, there is still some noise entering inside DAC through the USB interface, and then through the power supply spread inside, so DDC is still helping. This is a fact, confirmed by many.


----------



## vgmbpty

Well, my practical experience with very high end dacs ( a friend owns a store, does a lot of trade in) is the following:

1. That blanket statement that high end well designed dacs do not need USB reclockers is BS.  I personally tested dacs going from $5K USD to $75K USD, and 7 out of 10 sounded way better after reclocking.   The other 3 sounded slightly better but the effect was not dramatic.  It is a design decision.

2) Including such electronics in the ddc would increase too much the price because of the cost of the components required for the power supply and the uber expenside crystal.

I believe Kingwa made a smart decision leaving USB and making a much more affordable ddc.


----------



## sajunky

vgmbpty said:


> 2) Including such electronics in the ddc would increase too much the price because of the cost of the components required for the power supply and the uber expenside crystal.


If you read my post carefully, with modern USB receivers reclockers do nothing in terms of reclocking, as reclocking can only make things worse. They actually do something, it is redirecting of ground loops. The rest is a marketing bull. There are expensive, approaching the cost of DI-20. A real job they do is the same as the $50 ifi Defender. In this case description is not misleading. If you use two iDefenders in series, there is still an inprovement. If a DDC is not enouch, iDefender can still help, but a strenght of DDC is in a quality of power supply, it is what you pay for.

This above discussion is strictly about USB port, S/PDIF ports work on a different principle, they do require reclocking.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

gimmeheadroom said:


> Be aware, the DI-20 and DI-20HE are bigger than most people might expect. So check the dimensions to make sure they will be ok in your setup. They are not desktop gear but rather belong in shelves/racks.





dougms3 said:


> Had to rearrange some stuff to make room for the DI20HE, its bigger than I expected.


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


>


I had enough room but didn't account for the room I needed to put a wood block under the wires so that it doesn't put straing on the sockets lol.


----------



## FredA

dougms3 said:


> For the DI20HE, does anyone know the specifics of what these settings do?
> 
> *The 1st display element :*
> "P" (Parallel) means the signal will            be processed internally by the 32 bit (PCM) or 64 bit (DSD) parallel            mode . "S" (Serial) means the signal will be processed by the serial            mode.
> ...


1. Parallel vs serial mode is about the method of processing the data internally. Try both, they give different sound signature. The parallel mode is more accurate timing-wise but you could prefer serial
2. It is with regards to the format of the clock output on the back panel. If you have a dac featuring a clock input, this setting allows to choose the corresponding  clock format and feed the dac the required signal, assuming the required fornat is one of the two offered.


----------



## dougms3

FredA said:


> 1. Parallel vs serial mode is about the method of processing the data internally. Try both, they give different sound signature. The parallel mode is more accurate timing-wise but you could prefer serial
> 2. It is with regards to the format of the clock output on the back panel. If you have a dac featuring a clock input, this setting allows to choose the corresponding  clock format and feed the dac the required signal, assuming the required fornat is one of the two offered.


You're right, it is a slightly different signature in the sound parallel vs serial, they both sound good, not sure which one I prefer yet.  

Decisions, decisions.


----------



## FredA

dougms3 said:


> You're right, it is a slightly different signature in the sound parallel vs serial, they both sound good, not sure which one I prefer yet.
> 
> Decisions, decisions.


The serial mode will make the burn-in easier cause more forgiving. Once done,  you should figure this out. The burn-in is quite painful, a real roller coaster.


----------



## dougms3

FredA said:


> The serial mode will make the burn-in easier cause more forgiving. Once done,  you should figure this out. The burn-in is quite painful, a real roller coaster.


So I hear.  On the product page, Kingwa recommends 1000 hours.  

Makes sense since power has to flow through all those transistors, capacitors, etc and it looks like he puts a thousand in each device he makes.


----------



## vgmbpty

sajunky said:


> with modern USB receivers reclockers do nothing in terms of reclocking, as reclocking can only make things worse. They actually do something, it is redirecting of ground loops. The rest is a marketing bull


So are you saying that the Innuos phoenix USB reclocker is a scam?


----------



## FredA

dougms3 said:


> So I hear.  On the product page, Kingwa recommends 1000 hours.
> 
> Makes sense since power has to flow through all those transistors, capacitors, etc and it looks like he puts a thousand in each device he makes.


The accusilicons need much time, in particular.

Once burned, it becomes very steady.


----------



## sajunky

vgmbpty said:


> So are you saying that the Innuos phoenix USB reclocker is a scam?


Reclocking may be useful for older devices. During the last 10-15 years USB asynchronous data transfers became a standard and this feature is not doing any good anymore.

Missleading at least. Whether it is a scam or not, it depends on the price they charge comparing to a DDC, marketing target (older or new devices) and how you do assesment determining proportion of useful features vs. completely useles. An ordinary $10 USB 2.0 hub do full reclocking, it is only useful for MTT feature or when lenght of the cable is approaching 5 meters. I use self-powered USB 2.0 hub for ground loops redirection, it does a job. These expensive audiophile gadgets that cost 10x more do the same things. The rest is a power of marketing.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I think we're talking about at least two different things here.  

@sajunky is talking about reclocking the USB signal itself and he covered that topic well. But that is the transport layer, not the audio content layer. It is obviously impossible for a USB hub to have any awareness of the content of what goes through it in terms of audio signals, everything is just data. And so I think that is not what most people mean when they talk about reclocking of audio.

I think when most people think about reclocking, we're talking about the audio signal, not the USB signal. This is stripping the clock signal from an audio signal and replacing it with a better quality clock signal. For example. Mutec does this on all inputs- S/PDIF coax and optical, AES/EBU, AESid. It's bit-perfect, and it has helped in surprising situations annd there is also audible benefit here of course.


----------



## slazhx

Just to lower the heat. I agree that Kingwa should add USB output. It will add more flexibility to the DI-20, and at the same time let users make their own judgment about which one suits their needs.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Jul 17, 2022)

arayasg said:


> I agree that Kingwa should add USB output. It will add more flexibility to the DI-20, and at the same time let users make their own judgment about which one suits their needs.


As I think a few guys (not sure who, but probably @sajunky @FredA @DACLadder) have pointed out, there is already USB isolation on the later model R7 and R8 DACs and maybe some others. Maybe a while ago that could have helped but I think nowadays USB output is really not something anybody wants or needs for the DI-20/HE for use with Kingwa's DACs.

I don't use the USB input on my R8 Mk2 at all, but I use everything else.


----------



## mrjayviper (Jul 17, 2022)

so I was directed here by audio-gd.com (http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmware/AmaneroforWinEN.htm) if I  want to  ask questions about updating the firmware the audio-gd/amanero combo386 USB board.

some info: I'm planning to buy a Reference 10.2 with the Amanero 384 board.

3 questions please:


Can I use the firmware files available on amanero.com? If yes, which one should I download? they seemed more up-to-date than the ones on audio-gd.com.


On the audio-gd.com instructions, it says this -> "When open the tool, there is an ID windows, just keep it as default and click ok." My question is, what's the default ID? Would the configtool.exe auto-detect the device when I start the process?


Steps 3/4 (audio-gd's instructions) says to shutdown the device. Do I need to turn it on again? Do I need to unplug/replug the USB cable?

Thanks a lot.


----------



## sajunky

Inst


mrjayviper said:


> so I was directed here by audio-gd.com (http://www.audio-gd.com/Firmware/AmaneroforWinEN.htm) if I  want to  ask questions about updating the firmware the audio-gd/amanero combo386 USB board.
> 
> some info: I'm planning to buy a Reference 10.2 with the Amanero 384 board.
> 
> ...


Instructions are very similar, but Amanero assumes that the module is USB powered, it is not true in the case of Audio GD equipment.

Therefore when Amanero website gives instruction to unplug, then re-plug USB cable, you need after unplugging USB cable additionally to cycle a power of DI-20 (switch power off, wait 20 second, then switch power on). Wait 10 seconds and insert USB cable back.


----------



## dougms3

sajunky said:


> Inst
> 
> Instructions are very similar, but Amanero assumes that the module is USB powered, it is not true in the case of Audio GD equipment.
> 
> Therefore when Amanero website gives instruction to unplug, then re-plug USB cable, you need after unplugging USB cable additionally to cycle a power of DI-20 (switch power off, wait 20 second, then switch power on). Wait 10 seconds and insert USB cable back.


Wait I'm confused, is it the amanero driver or firmware?  I think he's referring to the driver right?

On the amanero site it looks likethe newest drivers are the combo384 1.067, on the audio-gd site the drivers are 1.062.  

I'm using the 1.067 version drivers and can confirm it works properly.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> Wait I'm confused, is it the amanero driver or firmware?  I think he's referring to the driver right?
> 
> On the amanero site it looks likethe newest drivers are the combo384 1.067, on the audio-gd site the drivers are 1.062.
> 
> I'm using the 1.067 version drivers and can confirm it works properly.


There are three pieces 

1. The WIndows USB driver (Amanero)
2. The DI-20/HE USB driver (Amanero)
3. The DI-20/HE firmware (Audio-gd, you need Quartus and the JTAG debugger to install)

If you don't have problems, and you're new to Audio-gd, the best idea is to leave it alone.


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> There are three pieces
> 
> 1. The WIndows USB driver (Amanero)
> 2. The DI-20/HE USB driver (Amanero)
> ...


I wouldn't mess with firmware stuff unless it was absolutely necessary but its always good to have updated drivers.

Not much to go wrong with with it, even if there is an issue its easy to rollback to the previous drivers.


----------



## mrjayviper

gimmeheadroom said:


> There are three pieces
> 
> 2. The DI-20/HE USB driver (Amanero)


Based on this list (https://amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm), which driver applies to the Audio/Amanero board?



dougms3 said:


> I wouldn't mess with firmware stuff unless it was absolutely necessary but its always good to have updated drivers.
> 
> Not much to go wrong with with it, even if there is an issue its easy to rollback to the previous drivers.



firmware updates can bring about new features which some people might want. or just general bug fixes


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> I wouldn't mess with firmware stuff unless it was absolutely necessary but its always good to have updated drivers.



No, Kingwa doesn't ship firmware du jour unlike the rest of the world. Anything he flashes on a box that goes out the door is fine.



dougms3 said:


> Not much to go wrong with with it, even if there is an issue its easy to rollback to the previous drivers.



Really, we'll be keeping our eyes peeled for stories of woe and lettuce know how it goes


----------



## RONJA MESCO (Jul 20, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm sure somebody will know. As for me, I run the stock firmware and never upgrade unless I have a problem.


Does anyone know a good cost-effective clock that I can try out that won't break the bank...I keep wondering what is possible, even though the sound I have now is awesome just with my Di-20...but there is a part of me that wonders WHY IN THE HELL IS THERE AN PORT FOR AN EXTERNAL CLOCK?!?!?! Hmmmmmm....


----------



## FredA

RONJA MESCO said:


> Does anyone know a good cost-effective clock that I can try out that won't break the bank...I keep wondering what is possible, even though the sound I have now is awesome just with my Di-20...but there is a part of me that wonders WHY IN THE HELL IS THERE AN PORT FOR AN EXTERNAL CLOCK?!?!?! Hmmmmmm....


The Morion mv89a. Ebay sellers will allow customization of impedance, wave shape and signal level. 

For the di20, you need 50ohm,  around 1.8Vpp and a square output. A sine also works but is a little less optimal, 1.8Vpp is in the middle of the range, lower and higher values will work (0.3 to 3.3v).

You will need a good 12v power supply (2a is enough) and a 50ohm cable. And a dc cable. 

Many bought the clock from this guy

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/333541364404?hash=item4da89d52b4:g:1CIAAOSwBXJhqgnq


----------



## gimmeheadroom

RONJA MESCO said:


> Does anyone know a good cost-effective clock that I can try out that won't break the bank...I keep wondering what is possible, even though the sound I have now is awesome just with my Di-20...but there is a part of me that wonders WHY IN THE HELL IS THERE AN PORT FOR AN EXTERNAL CLOCK?!?!?! Hmmmmmm....



Because if you have a bunch of gear, it's good to run it off one master clock.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Jul 21, 2022)

RONJA MESCO said:


> Does anyone know a good cost-effective clock that I can try out that won't break the bank...I keep wondering what is possible, even though the sound I have now is awesome just with my Di-20...but there is a part of me that wonders WHY IN THE HELL IS THERE AN PORT FOR AN EXTERNAL CLOCK?!?!?! Hmmmmmm....



This is probably one of the most affordable:
https://hifigo.com/products/aune-ac1-audio-clock

I had it and it made a difference. It has 4 outputs, 2 sinus and 2 square, so it is good to get a feel for the possibilities of an external clock. I have replaced it with an Afterdark Trifecta Emperor Double Crown with 3 outputs.

But beware of the impedance. I have a custom 75 Ohm clock input on my DI-20HE.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> This is probably one of the most affordable:
> https://hifigo.com/products/aune-ac1-audio-clock
> 
> I had it and it made a difference. It has 4 outputs, 2 sinus and 2 square, so it is good to get a feel for the possibilities of an external clock. I have replaced it with an Afterdark Trifecta Emperor Double Crown with 3 outputs.
> ...


Nice unit. They say the outputs are 50ohm on ali and linsoul audio. This is correct?


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> Nice unit. They say the outputs are 50ohm on ali and linsoul audio. This is correct?



Strange, I remember mine was 75 Ohm as my other gear with clock connections. Also on the picture of the rear the connectors look like 75 Ohm ones.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> Strange, I remember mine was 75 Ohm as my other gear with clock connections. Also on the picture of the rear the connectors look like 75 Ohm ones.


It will have to be confirmed by an eventual seller. Maybe they have both optïons... 

The stability (Allen deviation i guess) looks good but they do not spec phase noise.


----------



## slazhx

FredA said:


> The Morion mv89a. Ebay sellers will allow customization of impedance, wave shape and signal level.
> 
> For the di20, you need 50ohm,  around 1.8Vpp and a square output. A sine also works but is a little less optimal, 1.8Vpp is in the middle of the range, lower and higher values will work (0.3 to 3.3v).
> 
> ...



Here's a tip. You can get something like a 10+% disc. if you directly contact queen'sland and make payment via Paypal instead of Ebay. You just need to have a direct Whatsapp to them which is shown in this link: https://www.ebay.ca/usr/queen*s_land?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2559

Nice seller to communicate with.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

arayasg said:


> Here's a tip. You can get something like a 10+% disc. if you directly contact queen'sland and make payment via Paypal instead of Ebay. You just need to have a direct Whatsapp to them which is shown in this link: https://www.ebay.ca/usr/queen*s_land?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2559
> 
> Nice seller to communicate with.


Unfortunately, I had very bad luck with that guy. I asked for a few modifications which according to his ebay ad are welcome and no problem, but after a few emails he ignored me.


----------



## dougms3

arayasg said:


> Here's a tip. You can get something like a 10+% disc. if you directly contact queen'sland and make payment via Paypal instead of Ebay. You just need to have a direct Whatsapp to them which is shown in this link: https://www.ebay.ca/usr/queen*s_land?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2559
> 
> Nice seller to communicate with.


I'm new to the master clock thing, how exactly does it work?

What can expect in terms of improvement?

Where does one get a quality 50ohm coaxial cable ?


----------



## slazhx

gimmeheadroom said:


> Unfortunately, I had very bad luck with that guy. I asked for a few modifications which according to his ebay ad are welcome and no problem, but after a few emails he ignored me.



oh, sorry for that. I was about to get one from him but ended up with Mutec instead as the steal price popped up by that time. 



dougms3 said:


> I'm new to the master clock thing, how exactly does it work?
> 
> What can expect in terms of improvement?
> 
> Where does one get a quality 50ohm coaxial cable ?



There is much info for that. Try searching "morion" within this thread. You just need a clock and BNC cable to connect between it and other devices receiving the clock signals. You better check this on yours first. To my ears, one word for this improvement is Timing.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Jul 22, 2022)

On my journey to optimal sound I yesterday received an SDTrans384 (a minimalistic SD transport). I owned it before but a year ago it sort of exploded after being fed with a much too high voltage (human error, phfew...), and I really missed it since. It is an inconvenient device (only plays wav and dff files, only I2S and BNC/spdif out, only accepts small-size fat32 sd cards), but I know of no better source when fed by a good LPS (with the right voltage that is). For me it is a benchmark and sanity check when investigating expensive streamers such as the AQ Linq or MU1. This one costed me € 350 2nd hand with upgraded clocks.

I compared, with the SDTrans384 playing:
(1) PCM176 --> spdif --> Spring 3
(2) PCM176 --> I2S --> Spring 3
(3) DSD256 --> I2S --> Spring 3
(4) PCM176 --> spdif --> DI-20HE --> I2S --> Spring 3

No network involved. SQ to my ears: (1) < (2) < (3) < (4), the first confirming my earlier preference for DSD with just the Spring 3. However I now prefer (4) with PCM.
I like (3) and (4) even better than PureAsioPlayer streaming via Diretta.

Alas the combination of SDTrans384 + DI-20HE + DSD is impossible. For that I would need a DDC with I2S in- as well as output.
So, after preferring DSD for the last 6 months or so, I am now back to playing PCM with setup (4).
The effect of the DI-20HE is wonderful. It creates such a richly saturated texture.

There is one flip side: the minuscule glitches that I remember when using the spdif input to the DI-20HE are back. I never could get rid of them. They are so few and far between that I could live with them, but any advice would be welcome.

The positive effect of the DI-20HE is further enhanced by a (not yet broken in) HE-1 that I have on loan from a friend for the weekend. And in a few days a used HE-1 Vacuum will arrive, so it is a great time for comparisons.

Next will be an audition of the R7HE (EC version) to compare it with my Spring 3 L2. I hope to be able to do that at home, as then I can use the Afterdark clock that is hooked up to the DI-20HE also for the R7HE.

Sorry for the somewhat OT rambling, but the DI-20HE remains the spider in this web.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> On my journey to optimal sound I yesterday received an SDTrans384 (a minimalistic SD transport). I owned it before but a year ago it sort of exploded after being fed with a much too high voltage (human error, phfew...), and I really missed it since. It is an inconvenient device (only plays wav and dff files, only I2S and BNC/spdif out, only accepts small-size fat32 sd cards), but I know of no better source when fed by a good LPS (with the right voltage that is). For me it is a benchmark and sanity check when investigating expensive streamers such as the AQ Linq or MU1. This one costed me € 350 2nd hand with upgraded clocks.
> 
> I compared, with the SDTrans384 playing:
> (1) PCM176 --> spdif --> Spring 3
> ...


Did you mention you were on fw 4.075? If so, the glitches could be due to the cd transport's being way to off the exact playback frequency.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> Did you mention you were on fw 4.075? If so, the glitches could be due to the cd transport's being way to off the exact playback frequency.



You mean SD transport?
Yes I am on 4.075, but also tried 4.076, 4.07_Beta1 and 3.933, and all had the same problem with spdif, regardless of source (and I used maybe 5 different sources). With usb input there was never a problem.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> You mean SD transport?
> Yes I am on 4.075, but also tried 4.076, 4.07_Beta1 and 3.933, and all had the same problem with spdif, regardless of source (and I used maybe 5 different sources). With usb input there was never a problem.


Sd. Yes. Ok. I don't have the issue with 4.076 last time i checked.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> Sd. Yes. Ok. I don't have the issue with 4.076 last time i checked.



Thanks, I may try 4.076 again. I found 4.075 more silky but with the HE-1 in the chain (which is more rounded than the Spring 3 preamp board) this could work.


----------



## dougms3

bodiebill2 said:


> You mean SD transport?
> Yes I am on 4.075, but also tried 4.076, 4.07_Beta1 and 3.933, and all had the same problem with spdif, regardless of source (and I used maybe 5 different sources). With usb input there was never a problem.


What kind of problems are you experiencing with spdif?

I'm getting some buffering issues with it.


----------



## FredA

I had a periodic pop with 3.933. But i don't use spdif anymore on the di20he. The spdif input on the r7he mkii is so good, no reclocking by the di20he is even needed.


----------



## DecentLevi (Jul 22, 2022)

The previously mentioned issue about my DI20 exhibiting awful static, and R/L channel mismatch on the majority of power-up cycles has currently been resolved, and astonishingly - it seemed to be all down to DAC pairings!!

Just last week I got the new Chord Mojo 2 portable DAC (which includes a modest internal amp) and paired it with the DI20, and. 'WALA' - the first startup worked just fine. Assuming it was just a normal random chance that the DI20 worked right, I carried on and enjoyed the FANTASTIC sound, that IMO comes darn close to the Chord Qutest... it took me a while to notice that in fact the pairing is actually trouble free in the long run. Each startup works perfectly and quickly, including with sample rate changes.

This is literally the 4th DAC I have paired with the DI20, all previous of which have exhibited the above static and channel reversal issue, which I had been used to troubleshooting on a daily basis by power cycling on / off the unit between 2 and 10 times until the audio comes out right. The first DAC being Schiit Modi 2 multibit (for this one I can't quite recall if it happened less frequent or not at all), then was Chord Qutest, then iFi Micro iDSD Black Label as a DAC. All of these connected with RCA coax cables, with the exception of the Qutest which had to use a custom BNC to RCA cable to be compatible with its input. And now for some reason even though my new DAC is also from Chord Electronics and also using a RCA digital coax cable, the problem is solved. I have a hunch it may have had to have something to do with a digital handshake between the DDC and the DAC. Probably not significant, but the difference now being with the new DAC is that the digital coax cable is RCA on the DI20 side and 2-pin 3.5mm on the DAC side, for compatibility.


----------



## DecentLevi

rsbrsvp said:


> I think so to...
> 
> Check out this usb cable.    Someone I trust very much in the audio business told me this is the best USB cable he has ever heard cost-no object.  It has built in galvanic isolation.  I was also told- not all galvanic isolation is the same.  This company got it right...
> 
> https://fibbrcable.com/products/alpha-usb-a-b-optical-fiber-digital-audio-cable


I took the plunge on your suggestion, and yesterday caved and bought it. From your words and another review I found, seems like a mighty solid performance and transparent refinement can be had from this USB optical cable. I also like the fact that they actually have minimum one meter length, and 5 volt DC input on the receiving side. Plus, it's on sale for half the normal price; or so the website says. 

I was actually reluctant and pushed it out for a few days, seeing how the Fibbr customer service was absolutely non-existent. I tried their chat option, web contact form and email, all of which got no response at all after 3 days and counting. I even emailed them after the transaction went through to the PayPal email address that showed up to ask for a tracking number, but still no reply. You did however tell me that you bought it from that same source and it arrived in your country quickly, so, keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## bodiebill2

dougms3 said:


> What kind of problems are you experiencing with spdif?
> 
> I'm getting some buffering issues with it.



Maybe you have the same issue? I described it above as:


bodiebill2 said:


> There is one flip side: the minuscule glitches that I remember when using the spdif input to the DI-20HE are back. I never could get rid of them. They are so few and far between that I could live with them, but any advice would be welcome.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> I had a periodic pop with 3.933. But i don't use spdif anymore on the di20he. The spdif input on the r7he mkii is so good, no reclocking by the di20he is even needed.


That is promising! I hope I will be able to find out...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I don't know what firmware I have, my DI-20HE is newish. But, I run a streamer into it via coax and have 0 noise issues. If there was a problem as @FredA encountered, it was probably fixed in later firmware. But the same is true of my DI-20 non HE, which I think is 2 years old now. Also no noise over coax.


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> I don't know what firmware I have, my DI-20HE is newish. But, I run a streamer into it via coax and have 0 noise issues. If there was a problem as @FredA encountered, it was probably fixed in later firmware. But the same is true of my DI-20 non HE, which I think is 2 years old now. Also no noise over coax.


Last time i tried, i had no issue on coax with 4.076. Never had any on usb.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> Last time i tried, i had no issue on coax with 4.076. Never had any on usb.


Good to hear. If I recall correctly, Kingwa has been shipping 4.076 for a while now.


----------



## mrjayviper

4 questions please:

1. does this product "cleans up" the input and then the output is then fed to a DAC?

2. If yes to no1, can I use the SPDIF (the motherboard provides an SPDIF header) output of the on-board Realtek sound chip? Or I need to use a quality sound card (like Xonar Essence)?

3. In relation to nos 1 and 2, is it best to stick with USB if available?

4. what's the advantage of this device over something like Schiit Wyrd/Eitr (which seems to be much simpler)

Thanks for the help/reply.


----------



## Jandu

mrjayviper said:


> 4 questions please:
> 
> 1. does this product "cleans up" the input and then the output is then fed to a DAC?
> 
> ...


1, yes
2,yes for the first part of your question 
3, depends on which provides a better source signal
4, I will let someone who has both to comment


----------



## DecentLevi

Brief update on my above posting about Alpha USB optical cable from Fibbr. I actually did get a response today after having ordered 2 days ago, and looks like it will be shipped early next week. If you can't get ahold of them feel free to let me know by PM.


----------



## 801evan

DecentLevi said:


> Brief update on my above posting about Alpha USB optical cable from Fibbr. I actually did get a response today after having ordered 2 days ago, and looks like it will be shipped early next week. If you can't get ahold of them feel free to let me know by PM.


That review doesn't bring confidence. 😂


----------



## DecentLevi

I think purity of DC input makes a difference too. Worst case scenario I'll try another cable later.


----------



## 801evan

DecentLevi said:


> I think purity of DC input makes a difference too. Worst case scenario I'll try another cable later.


It should. I eye-roll that the guy doesn't have the listening acuity or the setup to not hear the difference.


----------



## dougms3

The burn in is quite annoying.  The fluctuations, losing bass and coming back day by day, volume is low today.  

Good news is only 940 hours left to go.


----------



## roberto2 (Jul 27, 2022)

What can we think about this clock?

https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-ock-1

It can be found cheaper on Ali...


----------



## Articnoise

dougms3 said:


> The burn in is quite annoying.  The fluctuations, losing bass and coming back day by day, volume is low today.
> 
> Good news is only 940 hours left to go.


You don't need to burn in the DI-20HE for 1000 hours before it sounds at it best. 200 hours is enough.


----------



## FredA

roberto2 said:


> What can we think about this clock?
> 
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-ock-1
> 
> It can be found cheaper on Ali...


-110dB @1hz is excellent at the price point, if real. Looks well made.


----------



## FredA

Anyone using the Gustard c2 clock cable?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

roberto2 said:


> What can we think about this clock?
> 
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-ock-1
> 
> It can be found cheaper on Ali...


I'd like to find a European source for that. Thanks for this link.

It's just unfortunate he has two signwave outs, square wave forevah!


----------



## dougms3

Articnoise said:


> You don't need to burn in the DI-20HE for 1000 hours before it sounds at it best. 200 hours is enough.


Well I hope you're right.

Thats the amount of time recommended on the product page.


----------



## FredA

WTH, I just ordered the Gustard C2 clock cable.


----------



## slazhx

FredA said:


> WTH, I just ordered the Gustard C2 clock cable.



Look forward to your finding.


----------



## Igor375375 (Jul 28, 2022)

roberto2 said:


> Что мы можем думать об этих часах?
> 
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-ock-1
> 
> На али можно найти дешевле...


https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005004167277639.html?sku_id=12000028255397665
Very interesting, I think it would be a good addition to the DI20HE, there is no alternative at this price.


----------



## FredA

Igor375375 said:


> https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005004167277639.html?sku_id=12000028255397665
> Very interesting, I think it would be a good addition to the DI20HE, there is no alternative at this price.


Indeed. If all is as stated, this is a huge bargain.


----------



## Ninja Theory

Hi. Which is a better DDC, the DI-20HE or the SU-6? Please can you explain why if you are able to share an opinion? I don’t believe the answer must be only because the DI-20HE has an external clock and the SU-6 does not.


----------



## dougms3

Ninja Theory said:


> Hi. Which is a better DDC, the DI-20HE or the SU-6? Please can you explain why if you are able to share an opinion? I don’t believe the answer must be only because the DI-20HE has an external clock and the SU-6 does not.


The HE has a regenerative power supply, internal clock is oven controlled vs temperature on the SU-6 (OCXO is more accurate), galvanically isolated, more advanced USB interface.  

Thats all I can think of but I'm sure theres more.


----------



## Ninja Theory

I have a DI-20 non HE. I need to make a decision: Sell my R7HE Mk1 and DI-20 and buy a R7HE Mk2 or keep my R7HE Mk1 and buy a DI-20HE or Singer SU-6


----------



## FOUNDERZERO

Ninja Theory said:


> Hi. Which is a better DDC, the DI-20HE or the SU-6? Please can you explain why if you are able to share an opinion? I don’t believe the answer must be only because the DI-20HE has an external clock and the SU-6 does not.


I used to own an SU-6... the DI-20HE is a much better sounding device, in my opinion.


----------



## FredA

FOUNDERZERO said:


> I used to own an SU-6... the DI-20HE is a much better sounding device, in my opinion.


It is likely the best out there.


----------



## Ninja Theory

FredA said:


> It is likely the best out there.


Hi Fred. When you have a minute could you share your thoughts on the related question I asked in the R7 thread.


----------



## FredA

Ninja Theory said:


> Hi Fred. When you have a minute could you share your thoughts on the related question I asked in the R7 thread.


Which was?


----------



## Ninja Theory

Ninja Theory said:


> I have a DI-20 non HE. I need to make a decision: Sell my R7HE Mk1 and DI-20 and buy a R7HE Mk2 or keep my R7HE Mk1 and buy a DI-20HE or Singer SU-6


Hi Fred. This is the question I referred to. Sorry for a moment I thought I had posted it in the R7 thread.


----------



## FredA

Ninja Theory said:


> Hi Fred. This is the question I referred to. Sorry for a moment I thought I had posted it in the R7 thread.


Getting the mkii is best. And an ext. clock later. Consider the he7 as well if you don't need dsd.


----------



## Ninja Theory

FredA said:


> Getting the mkii is best. And an ext. clock later. Consider the he7 as well if you don't need dsd.


Just to be sure I understand. If I am able to make the R7HE Mk2 happen, I will have to sell my R7 Mk1 and my DI-20, and I won't have budget to buy a DI-20HE.

So if I understand correctly: R7HE Mk2 > R7HE Mk1 + DI-20HE ?


----------



## FredA

Ninja Theory said:


> Just to be sure I understand. If I am able to make the R7HE Mk2 happen, I will have to sell my R7 Mk1 and my DI-20, and I won't have budget to buy a DI-20HE.
> 
> So if I understand correctly: R7HE Mk2 > R7HE Mk1 + DI-20HE ?


Yes. Using a decent streamer, that is. Using a noisy pc, i can't tell.


----------



## Ninja Theory

FredA said:


> Yes. Using a decent streamer, that is. Using a noisy pc, i can't tell.


Streamer is decent: Lumin U1 Mini upgraded. Removed SMPS and fitted 12V DC and LPS.

Source: Mac Mini. Also upgraded. Same as Lumin: Removed SMPS and fitted 12V DC and LPS.


----------



## FredA

Ninja Theory said:


> Streamer is decent: Lumin U1 Mini upgraded. Removed SMPS and fitted 12V DC and LPS.
> 
> Source: Mac Mini. Also upgraded. Same as Lumin: Removed SMPS and fitted 12V DC and LPS.


Go for it then. You wil get an even bigger upgrade with the ext. clock.


----------



## Ninja Theory

I am informed by some knowledgeable people in my audio circle that the SU-6 has a better clock than the DI-20HE and that it is a better DDC overall. Can anyone confirm which device has the better clock? 

I am tending towards the DI-20HE mainly because of the feedback I read here, and also because I have a DI-20 non-HE which I enjoy very much - but would like to confirm this matter of which device has the better clock if someone can help.


----------



## 801evan

A better clock means nothing with weak sauce psu. 😉


----------



## Ninja Theory

801evan said:


> A better clock means nothing with weak sauce psu. 😉


I am powering from a PS Audio PowerPlant, and the SU-6 would be powered from a LPS if I had to purchase it. I am thinking the upgrade from DI-20 to DI-20HE is the right move.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 31, 2022)

Ninja Theory said:


> I am informed by some knowledgeable people in my audio circle that the SU-6 has a better clock than the DI-20HE and that it is a better DDC overall. Can anyone confirm which device has the better clock?


Who are these people, maybe I know them? 

SU-6 use US band Crystek CCHD-957 oscilators. If you follow diyaudio forum, you will find that Crystek oscilators real performance depends on the quality of power supply, for this issue there were considered inferior to the Japaneese brand NDK. Problem with NDK, was availability only in large quantities >1k (or 10k). While there are on-line dealers selling in small quantities, there is no assurance for getting the A grade batch. If you do DIY job, you can take a risk, verify every piece by measurements, but a reputable brand will seek a direct relationship with the company.

Audio GD was the first company who offered an unknown Chineese brand Accusilicon as the option along with Crystek CCHD-957. Time is passing, Accusilicon has received international recognition and now there is no CCHD-957 option. However if you insist on the CCHD-957 oscilators, it is a solder-in replacement. Email Kingwa, I am sure he wiil give you a favour at no extra cost.


----------



## Jandu

Ninja Theory said:


> I am powering from a PS Audio PowerPlant, and the SU-6 would be powered from a LPS if I had to purchase it. I am thinking the upgrade from DI-20 to DI-20HE is the right move.



You may be able to tell some of the changes by trying the following:

1, don't use your PS Audio PowerPlant and listen to your system/music with DI20
2, Use your PS Audio PowerPlant and listen to your system/music with DI20

A few have got the DI20 first and then purchased the DI20HE, I believe all feedbacks were positive. I certainly have never heard from this forum that someone upgraded and regretted the upgrade.


----------



## ekjellgren

Sorry if I'm confused, but if I want to get a DDC between pc and Musician Pegasus, which one would be the best < €1000. Is SU-6 better then DI-20?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

ekjellgren said:


> Sorry if I'm confused, but if I want to get a DDC between pc and Musician Pegasus, which one would be the best < €1000. Is SU-6 better then DI-20?


If you already have the DAC, and especially if the DAC you have has IIS (I2S) then buy the DDC from the same company as your DAC.

As far as I have read, nobody who tried both thinks that SU-6 is better than the DI-20HE. I don't know if anybody compared it to the non HE model.


----------



## FredA

ekjellgren said:


> Sorry if I'm confused, but if I want to get a DDC between pc and Musician Pegasus, which one would be the best < €1000. Is SU-6 better then DI-20?


Di20he according to @DACLadder, who has both.


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> Good to hear. If I recall correctly, Kingwa has been shipping 4.076 for a while now.


I got a DI20HE, production February 2022, made a request to Kingwa for the serial number, here is his reply:
"Dear Igor,
It built in the V4.075 firmware as default.
I recommend you don't change the firmware now, until the unit finish the full burn in ."
p.s. I'll connect and heat it up tomorrow and report my impressions.


----------



## Igor375375

The DI20HE has been successfully incorporated into the set-up.
The result is a steam train:
DELL ( on LBP ) => USB GothicAudio OUTSIDER =>
DI20HE => I2S AudioQuest Carbon 48 Braid => R-28 2022. Power to both the DAC and the converter WireWorld Electra 7 2.0m.
Warmed up for an hour ...
Does it sound out of the box? Yes, it does.
Does it dramatically change the sound? No.
Then why do you need a converter? Yes, you do.
First impressions:

Scene gets wider and deeper.
The whole range becomes a bit more detailed.
In the floor set up there appears sensation as if in the concert hall, as someone once wrote, even the applause sounds different.
I'll write more in detail as it warms up.
While I'm satisfied, worthwhile add.
p.s. I'll have to try the OSHO's external clocks, good thing the DI20HE supports 10mhz external clocks input.


----------



## DACLadder

The DI-20HE is the best sounding DDC I have tried including the SU-6, SU-1, F1 of the Singxer varieties.   I haven't tried them all but I even like sound of the Gustard U16 better than the Singxers..  I was judging sound quality with Audio GD DACs.  YMMV depending on your system components.

As far as operation the Singxers perform flawlessly.  Cannot recommend the Gustard U16 as it was junk with my Win 10 PC and music server.  

If you have clean AC power the regular DI-20 is a great option to explore...   Specifically the higher end version of the DI-20 with Accusilicon 90/98M oscillators.


----------



## Zachik

@DACLadder have you tried the newer Gustard U18 DDC? Supposedly better than U16 and no driver / windows issues...


----------



## DACLadder

@Zachik  No, haven’t tried the Gustard U18 but a friend has and says he likes (sound qualty) the DI20HE better.  Have not used the newer Singxer SU-2 either.


----------



## Zachik

DACLadder said:


> @Zachik  No, haven’t tried the Gustard U18 but a friend has and says he likes (sound qualty) the DI20HE better.  Have not used the newer Singxer SU-2 either.


Thanks. I currently use the older Gustard U12, and honestly much prefer the form factor (and price) of the U18 (vs. DI20HE)...


----------



## Ninja Theory

DACLadder said:


> The DI-20HE is the best sounding DDC I have tried including the SU-6, SU-1, F1 of the Singxer varieties.   I haven't tried them all but I even like sound of the Gustard U16 better than the Singxers..  I was judging sound quality with Audio GD DACs.  YMMV depending on your system components.
> 
> As far as operation the Singxers perform flawlessly.  Cannot recommend the Gustard U16 as it was junk with my Win 10 PC and music server.
> 
> If you have clean AC power the regular DI-20 is a great option to explore...   Specifically the higher end version of the DI-20 with Accusilicon 90/98M oscillators.


What benefit does the DI-20 bring if the DAC has the same clocks?


----------



## sajunky

Ninja Theory said:


> What benefit does the DI-20 bring if the DAC has the same clocks?


Instant synchronisation. There is no need for reclocking,


----------



## FredA

Ninja Theory said:


> What benefit does the DI-20 bring if the DAC has the same clocks?


Less noise, i suppose.


----------



## dougms3

Ninja Theory said:


> What benefit does the DI-20 bring if the DAC has the same clocks?


I think with audio-gd equipment in general, you can see that he likes to show off the internals of his devices.  Not alot of manufacturers do this.

He knows that even if someone mimics the design, no one can offer the device for the price he offers it at the quality that he offers.


----------



## Contrails

Stay away from SU-1. It's a joke. The USB directly into my Topping D70S was better.  

I am looking to get the DI20 to convert USB to Coax/BNC to a Metrum Menuet (no i2s). I have a AC power conditioner so I am thinking I won't need a DI20HE.


----------



## motberg

FredA said:


> Indeed. If all is as stated, this is a huge bargain.


Links for Taobao, store and clock

https://diykits.world.taobao.com/?spm=2013.1.1000126.3.5a0c7e2cO3vtPU

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?sp...BDG4f&id=672359989282&ns=1&abbucket=14#detail

Top user feedback says it beats his C16, (but the "review" was copied to the cable reviews also). 
Store/business looks legit though....


----------



## FredA

motberg said:


> Links for Taobao, store and clock
> 
> https://diykits.world.taobao.com/?spm=2013.1.1000126.3.5a0c7e2cO3vtPU
> 
> ...


Yep. On paper, it beats the c16. About on par with the c18. It is one domain where specs surely matter


----------



## Igor375375 (Aug 7, 2022)

FredA said:


> Yep. On paper, it beats the c16. About on par with the c18. It is one domain where specs surely matter


I wonder if the *LHY OCK-1* is really on par with the* Gustard C18*?


----------



## DACLadder

The LHY-OCK-1 may be a decent 10M  clock.  -110dBm/hz at 1hz.  1 sq. wave and 2 sine wave outputs.

Prices vary wildly but are offered at a little over $350us on AliExp.  Some readable specs here…
https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-ock-1


----------



## DACLadder

Gustard C18 specs.  Very similar to the LHY-OCK-1.  I’ve been looking for a better clock to replace the Oscilloquartz OCXO (-90db/hz) in my PC setup.  Would be a huge upgrade for that system. So price-wise the LHY audio clock looks to be a bargain if it lives up to its specs.  Where is ASR when you need them the most??

https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...E-DvpmBDgL8tijOGhPvNc98lc34-juz4aAmGcEALw_wcB


----------



## dougms3

Igor375375 said:


> I wonder if the *LHY OCK-1* is really on par with the* Gustard C18*?


Even if its not as good as the C18, if it comes close, its not bad at 25% of the price of the C18.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/325...00028718724848!sea&curPageLogUid=zvvtS6jYcd9S

This is the cheapest I've found it for.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Phase noise is NOT the only number that matters in a external clock.  Thermal temperature and other numbers also effect results.   Many OXCO manufacturers actually believe thermal temperature is more important than phase noise including Morion.

Innuos uses a OXCO with -85dcb noise in their OXCO for their phoenixusb.  Pretty bad hu?  Well- I saw two comparisons comparing the phoenixusb to the STOM tx-usb ultra reclocker using a Paul Hynes SR7 power supply and Mutec Ref10 clock with -115dcb phase noise and both said the phoenixusb was better (and much much cheaper).  I had some emails with innuos and they said they tried many many OXCO's with their phoenixusb and many had much lower phase noise than the one they chose, but sounded worse.  We oversimplify when we stress phase noise as being the only important number in an external clock.....  

In addition- all 10mhz external clocks increase jitter (timing errors) even though they reduce phase noise.  Look it up on google.....


----------



## sajunky

rsbrsvp said:


> Phase noise is NOT the only number that matters in a external clock. Thermal temperature and other numbers also effect results. Many OXCO manufacturers actually believe thermal temperature is more important than phase noise including Morion.


What is thermal temperature affect other than a long term nominal frequency?  Is this important to us and how? What are these other parameters?


rsbrsvp said:


> In addition- all 10mhz external clocks increase jitter (timing errors) even though they reduce phase noise. Look it up on google.....


Yes, synchronisation errors are prevented (therefore do not contribute to the phase noise increase) if two devices are referenced by the same clock. I think this is what you have heard. Whether external clocks increase jitter is a matter of a type of internal clocks and end result cannot be predicted easily. So called and very popular ultra-low phase (fem-to-second) oscilators use digital PLL internally tuned to a fixed frequency. Clock digital synthesisers for 10MHz external clock use a similar technology and in both cases quality depends on the source clock. It means, external clock wins, but there are losses on connections. In other words, it may or may not...

One thing you need to remember. Phase noise is the same as jitter. Calculated differently, but the same. And which term is used, it depends on the application. External clocks have lower phase noise in a low frequency spectrum, while PLL generated clocks excel in higher frequecies, above middle audio spectrum range, but filtration is less effective for frequencies below 1kHz. For audio purpose this is the most important range.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> What is thermal temperature affect other than a long term nominal frequency?  Is this important to us and how? What are these other parameters?
> 
> Yes, synchronisation errors are prevented (therefore do not contribute to the phase noise increase) if two devices are referenced by the same clock. I think this is what you have heard. Whether external clocks increase jitter is a matter of a type of internal clocks and end result cannot be predicted easily. So called and very popular ultra-low phase (fem-to-second) oscilators use digital PLL internally tuned to a fixed frequency. Clock digital synthesisers for 10MHz external clock use a similar technology and in both cases quality depends on the source clock. It means, external clock wins, but there are losses on connections. In other words, it may or may not...
> 
> One thing you need to remember. Phase noise is the same as jitter. Calculated differently, but the same. And which term is used, it depends on the application. External clocks have lower phase noise in a low frequency spectrum, while PLL generated clocks excel in higher frequecies, above middle audio spectrum range, but filtration is less effective for frequencies below 1kHz. For audio purpose this is the most important range.


Yeah. Something many don't get get. Phase noise and jitter are different ways of looking at the same thing. Jitter is an average figure over the audio band giving the average timing error in seconds. Phase noise is more detailed, it give the specific timing error as a function of frequency. A phase error can easily be tranlated into a number in seconds, for those wondering.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Aug 7, 2022)

sajunky said:


> What is thermal temperature affect other than a long term nominal frequency?  Is this important to us and how? What are these other parameters?
> 
> Yes, synchronisation errors are prevented (therefore do not contribute to the phase noise increase) if two devices are referenced by the same clock. I think this is what you have heard. Whether external clocks increase jitter is a matter of a type of internal clocks and end result cannot be predicted easily. So called and very popular ultra-low phase (fem-to-second) oscilators use digital PLL internally tuned to a fixed frequency. Clock digital synthesisers for 10MHz external clock use a similar technology and in both cases quality depends on the source clock. It means, external clock wins, but there are losses on connections. In other words, it may or may not...
> 
> One thing you need to remember. Phase noise is the same as jitter. Calculated differently, but the same. And which term is used, it depends on the application. External clocks have lower phase noise in a low frequency spectrum, while PLL generated clocks excel in higher frequecies, above middle audio spectrum range, but filtration is less effective for frequencies below 1kHz. For audio purpose this is the most important range.


I am not very technically adept but if you look at the Morion site- they say clearly that thermal temperature is the single most important factor in OXCO clock performance.  Why?- I have no idea.  Stability, and other measurements which I don't understand also effect.

In addition- many technically minded people have told me that these -121dcb clocks will NOT get anywhere near that number in a non controlled home environment.  The manufacturer of the Hibiki 10mhz clock, and innuos both told me this as well.

Again- the Phoenixusb is perhaps the most highly respected usb reclocker made.  It uses a -85dcb OXCO.  It beat out in several comparisons the SOTM usb reclocker using Ref10 (-115dcb) clocking and paul Hynes PS in several reviews.   Check Auudiobacon and Audiophilelifestyle forum for several of these comparisons...

From my personal experience, I recently owned two etherregens for which I had Ref10 -120SE clock hooked up to both of these switches...  I compared it to the innuos phoenixnet with -85dcb clock and it was about a tie to my ears.  I see from this that the phase noise number is not everything....  So many other factors I do not understand...


----------



## rsbrsvp

If phase noise and jitter are the same thing- than external clocks harm jitter- and do not improve it..

Google quotes:
1. 10MHz master clocks use rate multipliers to convert to digital audio rates, which *generate more jitter* and tend to have a dirtier spectrum.31 Oct 2020
2. Although _external clocks do increase jitter_, it's a FACT there is a widely reporting increase in SQ.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Check out this article:  https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock

Overall, it should be clear from these tests that employing an external master clock cannot and will not improve the sound quality of a digital audio system. It might change it, and subjectively that change might be preferred, but it won't change things for the better in any technical sense. A‑D conversion performance will not improve: the best that can be hoped for is that the A‑D conversion won't become significantly degraded. In most cases, the technical performance will actually become worse, albeit only marginally so.


----------



## rsbrsvp

So- for a fellow who is not technically capable, I'm really getting in over my head.  My intention was just to make it clear that it does not seem clear at all that external clocks help- and seemingly- unless I am really misunderstanding these articles- they technically make things worse...

You technically minded headfiers are welcome to correct me and put me in my place if need be....  i welcome your input


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Check out this article:  https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock
> 
> Overall, it should be clear from these tests that employing an external master clock cannot and will not improve the sound quality of a digital audio system. It might change it, and subjectively that change might be preferred, but it won't change things for the better in any technical sense. A‑D conversion performance will not improve: the best that can be hoped for is that the A‑D conversion won't become significantly degraded. In most cases, the technical performance will actually become worse, albeit only marginally so.


It is not my experience. External clocks with Audio-gd improve staging and bass quality.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> It is not my experience. External clocks with Audio-gd improve staging and bass quality.


It is not my experience either.   I think our ears and technical truth may not be in sync..


----------



## rsbrsvp

Another google quote:

 Hence, _outboard clocks typically help INCREASE (not reduce) jitter_.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Check out this article:  https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock
> 
> Overall, it should be clear from these tests that employing an external master clock cannot and will not improve the sound quality of a digital audio system. It might change it, and subjectively that change might be preferred, but it won't change things for the better in any technical sense. A‑D conversion performance will not improve: the best that can be hoped for is that the A‑D conversion won't become significantly degraded. In most cases, the technical performance will actually become worse, albeit only marginally so.


This article misses a very important point: phase noise under 20hz is detrimental to sound quality and no internal clock i know of can come close to an ext master clock with this regard. So using the internal clock, you are stuck with this low freq phase noise.


----------



## rsbrsvp

My friends, we believe what we choose to believe- all of us....   and we hear what we like......

I think for me to argue with the enormous and nearly universal technical data that 10mhz clocks add jitter is simply foolish.

To say that I like the sound of my system with these clocks is personal opinion; non-technical.   Also- perhaps there is some other factor- not related to jitter which improves with an external clock which our ears like which makes up for the increase in jitter caused by our clocks.

My personal subjective opinion of these clocks based on my usage of them is they increase focus and bass, and overall fullness of sound. The image gains solidity and meatiness.  I like this result.  Detail and air IMHO are diminished.  Nevertheless the final result is pleasing to my ear.  My only question is- is it a placebo effect or a cognitive dissonance effect???  A question which is hard to answer...


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> My friends, we believe what we choose to believe- all of us....   and we hear what we like......
> 
> I think for me to argue with the enormous and nearly universal technical data that 10mhz clocks add jitter is simply foolish.
> 
> ...


Done enough a/b with 3 different setups to assure you it is not a placebo effect. Staging, imaging, and bass are improved. There is even more air IMO. For me, the clock is a big plus. Here to stay. I even have a spare one, just in case.


----------



## FredA

Another great bargain from Kingwa:

http://audio-gd.com/HE/HE1L/HE1LEN.htm


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> Done enough a/b with 3 different setups to assure you it is not a placebo effect. Staging, imaging, and bass are improved. There is even more air IMO. For me, the clock is a big plus. Here to stay. I even have a spare one, just in case.


Fred, this is no contradiction to factual data.   All external clocks regardless of phase noise numbers increase jitter yet may sound better due to some other factor which we just don't understand.

audio-gd is perhaps one of the best examples of a company which has been severely criticized for poor technical measurements in most of their products, but so many of us love the way the products sound...  This is OK with me....   I have no choice but to accept that measurements and sonic pleasure are not in agreement much of the time...


----------



## rsbrsvp

By the way, WORD CLOCKS (not 10 mhz clocks)- if they are superior to the internal clocks of our dacs- (from what I understand) do improve things by properly synchronizing our systems clocks together....  

I may not understand.....


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Fred, this is no contradiction to factual data.   All external clocks regardless of phase noise numbers increase jitter yet may sound better due to some other factor which we just don't understand.
> 
> audio-gd is perhaps one of the best examples of a company which has been severely criticized for poor technical measurements in most of their products, but so many of us love the way the products sound...  This is OK with me....   I have no choice but to accept that measurements and sonic pleasure are not in agreement much of the time...


As i have pointed out, jitter in the 0-20hz range likely improves with the external, while it may  be worse beyond 20hz or so. Which implies the impact of jitter on sound cannot be inferred from an overall jitter figure.  It has to be analyzed into more details.


----------



## FredA

Using a common 10mhz clock on both the di20he and r7he gives a proper synchronization as well.


----------



## rsbrsvp

FredA said:


> Using a 10mhz clock on both the di20he and r7he gives a proper synchronization as well.


and sounds fantastic


----------



## FredA

I might recieve the Gustard c2 clock cable this week, by the way. Looking forward to trying it.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Ok if the hifi world is hot on clocks right now, but the pro world has been buying master clocks since the 1980s and it seems clearly a best-practice to run all the gear in your chain off one clock.

 On the Mutec and probably other sites you can find reviews from pro audio guys (studios, etc) that have facts on what a good clock does that don't line up with the naysayer stuff that was quoted upthread. One guy even measured a significant decrease in jitter.


----------



## sajunky

rsbrsvp said:


> All external clocks regardless of phase noise numbers increase jitter yet may sound better due to some other factor which we just don't understand.


As I explained before, it is not evident truth that external clocks increase jitter. Secondly, if you look at numbers, you must understand conditions how these numbers are taken. These conditions vary from one vendor to another. Some try to avoid publishing data for a low frequency range which is critical for SQ, as I have mentioned before and @FredA too. Others only give a total jitter energy across specified frequency range, and a range is also different to make their product look better. Ordinary users depend on the other users feedback and your input is valuable as well.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I appreciate everyone's input....  Again- I am not technically minded...

The main thing seems to be that most of us like these clocks- including me........


----------



## FredA

Kingwa's 10M input implementation is good enough to bring sound quality improvments. It's been proven over and over. Results will vary depending on the dac. Even older.or cheaper dacs using a 8805 or dir9001 spdif receiver will benefit from being fed by an externally clocked Di20/he. Many will be floored with the result. It is really a breakthrough experience, in many cases. The sound can  become so analog and clear. Just wonderful.


----------



## FredA

As my he9 mkii pre matures, the stage is opening up, and i am reminded of how great things can be. 

Jim Hall Live.Vol 2-4 is a great album to get, to enjoy things to the max. If you like jazz. A lot of air. Great bass, drums and guitar.


----------



## Igor375375 (Aug 8, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Even if its not as good as the C18, if it comes close, its not bad at 25% of the price of the C18.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256804127469659.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.486a4353277ZwC&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000028718724848"}&pdp_npi=2@dis!USD!395.0!355.5!!!!!@2103255a16599008824987128ed49a!12000028718724848!sea&curPageLogUid=zvvtS6jYcd9S
> 
> This is the cheapest I've found it for.


Hi. I've noticed this shop too, the cheapest offer. I'll take the *LHY OCK-1* here. I'll also be getting a *BNC* cable to go with it https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050026...781027712.1640613639&sku_id=12000021653642404 and *WireWorld Stratus 7 2.0m* power cable. I have the entire *WireWorld Electra 7* power harness, I like them a lot, but I'll get a cheaper one for the clock.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Igor375375 said:


> Hi. I've noticed this shop too, the cheapest offer. I'll take the *LHY OCK-1* here. I'll also be getting a *BNC* cable to go with it https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050026...781027712.1640613639&sku_id=12000021653642404 and *WireWorld Stratus 7 2.0m* power cable. I have the entire *WireWorld Electra 7* power harness, I like them a lot, but I'll get a cheaper one for the clock.


Lucky for you if you can import from China without doubling the price! I would like to try this clock but it would cost me at least 2X the price by the time various offices get their hands out of my pockets.


----------



## Igor375375 (Aug 8, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Lucky for you if you can import from China without doubling the price! I would like to try this clock but it would cost me at least 2X the price by the time various offices get their hands out of my pockets.


Yes, we have so far, and up to €1,000 is tax-free. Delivery is also mostly included in the price. 
But we can't buy from you now, at least not without problems .


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Igor375375 said:


> Yes, we have so far, and up to €1,000 is tax-free. Delivery is also mostly included in the price.
> But we can't buy from you now, at least not without problems .


I know, the world has gone insane.


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> I know, the world has gone insane.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Beer is about the only thing we have worth sending to you


----------



## Igor375375 (Aug 8, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Beer is about the only thing we have worth sending to you


Czech beer is very tasty, one of the best in the world. I used to be a big beer connoisseur. Now I only drink dry wine .


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> Beer is about the only thing we have worth sending to you


Not true, Milan Kundera wrote one of my favorite books, the unbearable lightness of being, alot composers, artists, intellectuals in general come out of the czech republic.  

Also you those very fine czech womens


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Aug 8, 2022)

Igor375375 said:


> Czech beer is very tasty, one of the best in the world. I used to be a big beer connoisseur. Now I only drink dry wine .


Yes, the variety of beer here is incredible. We can get unfiltered, unpasturized beer of many kinds, all delivered cold to the house and it is not expensive at all.

There are also many wineries in the Moravian region which my friends like but I didn't try them.



dougms3 said:


> Not true, Milan Kundera wrote one of my favorite books, the unbearable lightness of being, alot composers, artists, intellectuals in general come out of the czech republic.



It's funny because the borders changed a lot and also countries are relatively small and people moved around. But yes, Mahler and some famous conductors, and of course a lot of great folk music. But not matter who it is, the Slovaks or Germans will argue it was their guy 



dougms3 said:


> Also you those very fine czech womens



Yes they are quite beautiful but also very tall. I'm surprised they didn't make waves in womens basketball...


----------



## Zachik

Don't forget the Czech hockey players!!


----------



## mrjayviper

possible to customize the pinout for the HDMI port? thanks


----------



## Jandu

mrjayviper said:


> possible to customize the pinout for the HDMI port? thanks


Two ways:

1, ask AGD to configure to your spec
2, custom make the HDMI cable


----------



## dougms3

mrjayviper said:


> possible to customize the pinout for the HDMI port? thanks


In the settings menu, you can switch the type of HDMI standard.


----------



## FredA

http://audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN_Use.htm


----------



## Fibre101

I know a lot have talked about the silver acss cables and their improvements. I was thinking of getting a silver acss, particularly the Robertson one but im still unsure. I currently use the audio gd pro acss cable which is an improvement over the original acss for more of a "anologue sound" said by kingwa. how much of a jump is the copper cable to the silver acss cable? I own a silver i2s along with a silver headphone cable aswell. I've heard that copper cables have an overall warmer signature while silver is usually brighter. If someone can guide me in the right direction, that will be great!


----------



## Vangelo (Aug 10, 2022)

Not sure if anyone can help. My mate & I just invested in a pair of these DI-20HE's. We both have similar systems using the ifi STREAM as a source.
Whereas everything all works fine outputting USB from the Stream and into the 20HE, attempting to use the SPDIF output from the stream causes a loud squeal when the music is paused.

I have read as much as I can of this thread to try to find a solution. The units are new with 4075 firmware.

I am new to these DDCs, so any suggestions would be welcomed!

Cheers

V

PS. Just tested CD player with SPDIF out which works fine, so seems to be some incompatibility with iFi Stream.


----------



## dougms3

Vangelo said:


> Not sure if anyone can help. My mate & I just invested in a pair of these DI-20HE's. We both have similar systems using the ifi STREAM as a source.
> Whereas everything all works fine outputting USB from the Stream and into the 20HE, attempting to use the SPDIF output from the stream causes a loud squeal when the music is paused.
> 
> I have read as much as I can of this thread to try to find a solution. The units are new with 4075 firmware.
> ...


What file format are you streaming? Are you upsampling?

It sounds like you are trying to use a sample rate or dsd upsampling beyond the limits of spdif which is 24/192 and dsd over dop 64.


----------



## FredA

Vangelo said:


> Not sure if anyone can help. My mate & I just invested in a pair of these DI-20HE's. We both have similar systems using the ifi STREAM as a source.
> Whereas everything all works fine outputting USB from the Stream and into the 20HE, attempting to use the SPDIF output from the stream causes a loud squeal when the music is paused.
> 
> I have read as much as I can of this thread to try to find a solution. The units are new with 4075 firmware.
> ...


The bnc outout won't necessarily work, depending on the dac. Make sure you have the right output. From the rear, the spdif outs are the first 3 from the left. Give rca a try. Or aes/ebu.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

He should also report it in the ifi stream thread here. It sounds like the stream isn't muting all outputs when it's not playing, could be easily fixed in firmware.


----------



## sajunky (Aug 10, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> He should also report it in the ifi stream thread here. It sounds like the stream isn't muting all outputs when it's not playing, could be easily fixed in firmware.


Absolutely right, I was just busy typing. However problem is that ifi is actually disabling output completely instead of muting digital data. Lack of the signal cause DI-20 lose synchronisation. All devices I know continue sending embedded clock signal with a digital silence. Ifi should fix it.

Kingwa could try to fix this issue by muting data after loosing sync, but such information is available with a delay, some click would be still present. It would affect response to the normal transmission errors, normally not noticeable, so better fix it at the source.


----------



## FredA

My Gustard c2 is just out of the customs, on the other side of Canada... So not much hope for this week. Canada Post is the worst.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> Canada Post is the worst.



Maybe 2nd worst 

Anyway good luck! Congrats on the growing clock collection


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> Maybe 2nd worst
> 
> Anyway good luck! Congrats on the growing clock collection


It is just a clock cable.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> It is just a clock cable.


You wrote Gustard C2 and I thought it must be the clock itself 

Now I see they even have a model number for the cable. That's marketing


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> You wrote Gustard C2 and I thought it must be the clock itself
> 
> Now I see they even have a model number for the cable. That's marketing


Yeah they better do. They nearly charge 200usd. It better be good.


----------



## Vangelo

dougms3 said:


> What file format are you streaming? Are you upsampling?
> 
> It sounds like you are trying to use a sample rate or dsd upsampling beyond the limits of spdif which is 24/192 and dsd over dop 64.


Hi....thanks for taking this up.
I just got the DDC.....not trying to do anything fancy.
I was running the ZS directly into my DAC via SPDIF cable. I used the same connection with DDC, so SPDIF from ZS into DDC.
Played fine right away, but issue came when I paused track & got loud squeal. I was using Tidal HiFi at the time, but does same with files....standard redbook mainly is what I play.
I tried to trouble shoot. USB fine, & output from DDC doesnt matter.
I tested DDC SPDIF input with 2 other devices....my CDplayer & a Bluetooth receiver. Both fine.


----------



## Jandu

Vangelo said:


> Hi....thanks for taking this up.
> I just got the DDC.....not trying to do anything fancy.
> I was running the ZS directly into my DAC via SPDIF cable. I used the same connection with DDC, so SPDIF from ZS into DDC.
> Played fine right away, but issue came when I paused track & got loud squeal. I was using Tidal HiFi at the time, but does same with files....standard redbook mainly is what I play.
> ...



It is not unusual to hear some noises, like pops or short burst of sound, when switching between hi-res (DSD) to redbook. Normally, between redbook to redbook should be quite. Are you switching between sources, like Tidal to DSD?

Also, you may want to leave the DI20 to burn-in for a few weeks before it sounds best. However, I don't think that would affect the load squeal.


----------



## Vangelo

Jandu said:


> It is not unusual to hear some noises, like pops or short burst of sound, when switching between hi-res (DSD) to redbook. Normally, between redbook to redbook should be quite. Are you switching between sources, like Tidal to DSD?
> 
> Also, you may want to leave the DI20 to burn-in for a few weeks before it sounds best. However, I don't think that would affect the load squeal.


Thanks for the reply. Yes.....do get the clicks & pops when changing formats. That is not the concern. Its the squeal which is quite loud when I use the SPDIF input and pause a track, be it from files on USB stick or Tidal. Also happens if I switch ZS off.

All is good via USB input.

I dont have any DSD files..............


----------



## dougms3

Vangelo said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yes.....do get the clicks & pops when changing formats. That is not the concern. Its the squeal which is quite loud when I use the SPDIF input and pause a track, be it from files on USB stick or Tidal. Also happens if I switch ZS off.
> 
> All is good via USB input.
> 
> I dont have any DSD files..............


Are you using windows, mac, android?

What is the sample rate you are using?


----------



## Vangelo

dougms3 said:


> Are you using windows, mac, android?
> 
> What is the sample rate you are using?


Android

Sample rate doesnt seem to matter. Tidal is usually 16/44. Files same or 24/96.


----------



## Fibre101

Vangelo said:


> Android
> 
> Sample rate doesnt seem to matter. Tidal is usually 16/44. Files same or 24/96.


i ran into the same issue when i got the ifi zen streamer. Usb sounds great with the di 20 but I missed eq from my mac with windows so was hoping spdif would work so i just used it with a different dac instead and it works.


----------



## PeterCraig (Aug 11, 2022)

I also had a bit of a short squeal issue when my DI20 was brand new and changed tracks/sample rates. My issue went away after about 400 hours.

After that....smooth sailing.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> My Gustard c2 is just out of the customs, on the other side of Canada... So not much hope for this week. Canada Post is the worst.


I'm really interested in your findings about this cable, dear Fred. Actually I'm using a self made RG-402, blue skinned  exactly like Gustard C2 between Mutec, R7HE and DI-20HE. It was very cheep building them, and results seems good. Very very noosy, lol....


----------



## FredA

Il Cuffiotto said:


> I'm really interested in your findings about this cable, dear Fred. Actually I'm using a self made RG-402, blue skinned  exactly like Gustard C2 between Mutec, R7HE and DI-20HE. It was very cheep building them, and results seems good. Very very noosy, lol....


The C2 is a design that discards impedance matching. Can be used as 50-ohm or 75-ohm cable. This got me intrigued and it also rings a bell with Acoustic Zen using a 110ohm cable for 75-ohm applications. I should get the cable on Monday or Tuesday.

So i will be glad to comment on it for you and anyone interested.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> The C2 is a design that discards impedance matching. Can be used as 50-ohm or 75-ohm cable. This got me intrigued and it also rings a bell with Acoustic Zen using a 110ohm cable for 75-ohm applications. I should get the cable on Monday or Tuesday.
> 
> So i will be glad to comment on it for you and anyone interested.


Interesting! Especially as I am now experimenting with a Merging Hapi network DAC that has a 75 Ohm word clock input. Currently I feed this with a 75 Ohm cable coming from the word clock output of the DI-20HE. The latter is 50 Ohm (in spite of the fact that I ordered it with the 75 Ohm 10 MHz input) and I was considering to ask Magna Hifi to convert this to 75 Ohm. Which seems to be pretty easy: replacing the connector and one resistance. Not sure whether I could do this myself. But with the magical C2 this may not be needed? Looking forward to your findings...


----------



## FredA

Got the c2 clock cable two hours ago.

Right from the start, clarity has improved, cymbal are better. Also, there is a better depiction of depth and the sound is more relaxed. So far, it's a winner. Very glad with my purchase.

The cable, although it looks like an rg402, cannot be bent permanently, it seems.  So different construction.

It came well packed in a nice box featuring a magnetic lid. A bit fancy.


----------



## dougms3

Has anyone tried testing different cables on the di20he?

Would it have much of an effect since the HE has regenerative power?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> Has anyone tried testing different cables on the di20he?



I have not but I'm sure somebody has. I use Kingwa's cable. I like the heavy duty build and the price is right. I bought it for all my Audio-gd gear except my R2R-11, because it just feels wrong to use an el-cheapo IEC computer cord with his beautiful gear 



dougms3 said:


> Would it have much of an effect since the HE has regenerative power?



Good quality cable and connections can't hurt. I'm sure it doesn't improve the power, it just helps make sure the power gets there.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> Got the c2 clock cable two hours ago.
> 
> Right from the start, clarity has improved, cymbal are better. Also, there is a better depiction of depth and the sound is more relaxed. So far, it's a winner. Very glad with my purchase.
> 
> ...


Fred, did you really only show the box and not the cable? I kept looking for the second photo


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> I have not but I'm sure somebody has. I use Kingwa's cable. I like the heavy duty build and the price is right. I bought it for all my Audio-gd gear except my R2R-11, because it just feels wrong to use an el-cheapo IEC computer cord with his beautiful gear
> 
> 
> 
> Good quality cable and connections can't hurt. I'm sure it doesn't improve the power, it just helps make sure the power gets there.


He uses knockoff oyaide connectors on his power cables.  They have been reported to be 95% capable of the original by many people that bought them.


----------



## FredA (Aug 15, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Fred, did you really only show the box and not the cable? I kept looking for the second photo


The cable looks like not much, same as in the pics on ali. Maybe a bit better than your typical rg402 because of the gold-plated plugs. It sure sounds well though.


----------



## FredA (Aug 15, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Has anyone tried testing different cables on the di20he?
> 
> Would it have much of an effect since the HE has regenerative power?


The effect is not huge IMO. The amps and pres  are more sensitive. Any cable with decent shielding and gauge will do IMO. I would not spend over 100$. I use an Odin knock-off myself.


----------



## dougms3

FredA said:


> The effect is not huge IMO. The amps and pre a more sensitive. Any cable with decent shielding and gauge will do IMO. I would not spend over 100$. I use an Odin knock-off myself.


I have the odin knockoff on it now, when I get less lazy I'll test a cheap cable and see if theres any difference.


----------



## Vangelo (Aug 16, 2022)

Is it possible for FW to become corrupted and stop the DI-20 from working?
My friends unit was working fine via Zen Streamer/USB + Quobuz. He then tried to cast YouTubeMusic via Bubble/ZS which caused white noise then silence.
He has not been able to get DDC to work again, altho streaming direct to DAC is fine.
The FW at the time was 3.933.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Could be as simple as forgetting the Selector controls input between RCA coaxial and USB.


----------



## Vangelo

gimmeheadroom said:


> Could be as simple as forgetting the Selector controls input between RCA coaxial and USB.


He did not alter inputs, but will check & report back.
Slight issue we had when I first updated the firmware & went through the procedure which was 100% successful.....but could not get a sound out of the Di20.
Re-did the procedure, and second time it worked, & everytime after that as we sampled the different FW's.


----------



## sajunky (Aug 16, 2022)

Vangelo said:


> He did not alter inputs, but will check & report back.
> Slight issue we had when I first updated the firmware & went through the procedure which was 100% successful.....but could not get a sound out of the Di20.
> Re-did the procedure, and second time it worked, & everytime after that as we sampled the different FW's.


Yes, flashing may pass, while some locations produce unstable result. This is a hardware fault, if it happened more than once, it indicate that there are weak cells and reprogramming in future should be avoided. Upload the best firmware, and stick to that version.

It can be also non-volatile memory chip losing configuration, it is worth to try first what @gimmeheadroom says. Also try to power off, disconnect all other devices and leave it for few hours. It will discharge internal static electricity that device could be exposed to.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> Got the c2 clock cable two hours ago.
> 
> Right from the start, clarity has improved, cymbal are better. Also, there is a better depiction of depth and the sound is more relaxed. So far, it's a winner. Very glad with my purchase.
> 
> ...


Thanks Fred, interesting! Did you buy just one cable? If yes, did you connect the dac or the DI-20? And again...did you have experience with RG402 in the past? I think I'll buy a couple of those...Just need to see where, coz from China directly I would pay a lot of duties...


----------



## FredA

Il Cuffiotto said:


> Thanks Fred, interesting! Did you buy just one cable? If yes, did you connect the dac or the DI-20? And again...did you have experience with RG402 in the past? I think I'll buy a couple of those...Just need to see where, coz from China directly I would pay a lot of duties...


Only one, on the dac. I think a second one would make very little difference if any, could be wrong. It beats all my other cables so far, including the red one from Afterdark and my ebay rg402s. While listening , i realized i had put the di20he on a 75-ohm out by mistake, and had my setup like this for a few months. I put it back on a 50-ohm out and perceived little difference if any.


----------



## FredA (Aug 16, 2022)

Vangelo said:


> Is it possible for FW to become corrupted and stop the DI-20 from working?
> My friends unit was working fine via Zen Streamer/USB + Quobuz. He then tried to cast YouTubeMusic via Bubble/ZS which caused white noise then silence.
> He has not been able to get DDC to work again, altho streaming direct to DAC is fine.
> The FW at the time was 3.933.


Hot swapping hdmi can cause issues if not lucky. Pushing the red button behind (close to the update port) will erase the amanero fw. I would bet this is what happened. You would not see the amanero though on the computer.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> Yes, flashing may pass, while some locations produce unstable result. This is a hardware fault, if it happened more than once, it indicate that there are weak cells and reprogramming in future should be avoided. Upload the best firmware, and stick to that version.
> 
> It can be also non-volatile memory chip losing configuration, it is worth to try first what @gimmeheadroom says. Also try to power off, disconnect all other devices and leave it for few hours. It will discharge internal static electricity that device could be exposed to.


It is worthwhile to check the verify option in the Altera programmer. . Could be a programming problem (bad transmission caused by a bad contact or something else causing an error).


----------



## sajunky (Aug 16, 2022)

FredA said:


> Hot swapping hdmi can cause issues if not lucky. Pushing the red button behind (close to the update port) will erase the amanero fw. I would bet this is what happened. You would not see the amanero though on the computer.


Pressing red button is one thing. Is such case only USB port would stop working. The other is a very common case that hot swapping cause permanent damage HDMI ports in TV sets, set-top boxes, etc., a DAC/DDC is not an exception.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> Only one, on the dac. I think a second one would make very little difference if any, could be wrong. It beats all my other cables so far, including the red one from Afterdark and my ebay rg402s. While listening , i realized i had put the di20he on a 75-ohm out by mistake, and had my setup like this for a few months. I put it back on a 50-ohm out and perceived little difference if any.


I had a similar situation, I was using the DI-20 WCLK out into a 75 ohm input on a DAC. It worked fine, the DAC had no problem locking to the WCLK signal. Probably a short cable just doesn't make enough loss or reflection.


----------



## Vangelo

sajunky said:


> Yes, flashing may pass, while some locations produce unstable result. This is a hardware fault, if it happened more than once, it indicate that there are weak cells and reprogramming in future should be avoided. Upload the best firmware, and stick to that version.
> 
> It can be also non-volatile memory chip losing configuration, it is worth to try first what @gimmeheadroom says. Also try to power off, disconnect all other devices and leave it for few hours. It will discharge internal static electricity that device could be exposed to.


Thanks....will get him to give this a go....


----------



## Vangelo

FredA said:


> Hot swapping hdmi can cause issues if not lucky. Pushing the red button behind (close to the update port) will erase the amanero fw. I would bet this is what happened. You would not see the amanero though on the computer.


I dont think cables were hot swapped & this particular unit has no red button


----------



## FredA (Aug 16, 2022)

Vangelo said:


> I dont think cables were hot swapped & this particular unit has no red button


Could be black. Right by the update port. If the computer sees the amanero, this is not the issue.


----------



## Il Cuffiotto

FredA said:


> Only one, on the dac. I think a second one would make very little difference if any, could be wrong. It beats all my other cables so far, including the red one from Afterdark and my ebay rg402s. While listening , i realized i had put the di20he on a 75-ohm out by mistake, and had my setup like this for a few months. I put it back on a 50-ohm out and perceived little difference if any.


Got it, thanks.
I cannot be sure, but I tend to think that clock cable can have identical influence on both gears, no hierarchy have logical sense...I experienced this changing cables of inferior quality like rg416 or rg402. Mixing them in various combination produced noticeable differences, being always better the use of same cable in both connections.


----------



## Vangelo

FredA said:


> Could be black. Right by the update port. If the computer sees the amanero, this is not the issue.


Great news. My mates Di-20 started working again after leaving off for a few hours. Static build-up?


----------



## FredA (Aug 16, 2022)

Vangelo said:


> Great news. My mates Di-20 started working again after leaving off for a few hours. Static build-up?


My best guess is the clocks can be really unstable during burn-in, assuming the unit is new.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Interestingly, the DI-20 keeps AES/EBU active even when it should not work i.e. the sample rate is higher than 192 KHz. I can get DXD to play mostly ok over AES/EBU to my Brooklyn.


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> I had a similar situation, I was using the DI-20 WCLK out into a 75 ohm input on a DAC. It worked fine, the DAC had no problem locking to the WCLK signal. Probably a short cable just doesn't make enough loss or reflection.


The dac clocks the signal as well in my case. As long as there a lock and  as long as it does not make the i2s aignal noisier, it is ok. Using the external clock on the di20he vs the internal makes little difference since i got the latest r7he fw.

Having a mismatch will raise jitter of course. But won't cause a locking issue.


----------



## FredA

Vangelo said:


> Great news. My mates Di-20 started working again after leaving off for a few hours. Static build-up?


Or a dc offset made a little too high temporariy because of  burn-in. Who knows. Popping noise can also occur (and will) during burn-in. Everything should be fine after 500h. Or sooner.


----------



## 12kurupt

Igor375375 said:


> Hi. I've noticed this shop too, the cheapest offer. I'll take the *LHY OCK-1* here. I'll also be getting a *BNC* cable to go with it https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050026...781027712.1640613639&sku_id=12000021653642404 and *WireWorld Stratus 7 2.0m* power cable. I have the entire *WireWorld Electra 7* power harness, I like them a lot, but I'll get a cheaper one for the clock.


looking forward to your experience with the LHY OCK-1 and DI20. I'll probably be picking up the DI-20HE within the next few days and am considering the OCK-1 or C16. I prefer the price of the OCK-1


----------



## Igor375375

12kurupt said:


> looking forward to your experience with the LHY OCK-1 and DI20. I'll probably be picking up the DI-20HE within the next few days and am considering the OCK-1 or C16. I prefer the price of the OCK-1


OK, I will. DI20HE I'm very happy with, it's definitely worth the money, I've been warming it up for about 300 hours, the system sound is very mature, a worthwhile purchase. I ordered my LHY OCK-1 and BNC Gustard cable from ali expresse. WireWorld Stratus 7 2.0m power cable already purchased.


----------



## PeterCraig

It's definitely worth the money. That is a fact!


----------



## FredA

Got mine over 2y ago. It is just great. Kingwa's best product ever perhaps. Hard to say, he made so many great ones. 

It sounds full and it stages outstandingly. It is very stable with the usbridge sig. 

The c2 clock cable is improving, even though it easily beat my other cables from the start. Things can't get much better from here. It is very hard to perceive it's a digital source playing (di20he along with the r7he mkii,  both clocked by the afterdark eva) . The level of detail is amazing. The definition in the extreme low range has improved too. A layer of air has been added as well.


----------



## dougms3

Igor375375 said:


> OK, I will. DI20HE I'm very happy with, it's definitely worth the money, I've been warming it up for about 300 hours, the system sound is very mature, a worthwhile purchase. I ordered my LHY OCK-1 and BNC Gustard cable from ali expresse. WireWorld Stratus 7 2.0m power cable already purchased.


I have about 350 hours burn in time, its still fluctuating a bit but not as much now.  Really sucked for the first 200 hours or so, bass was going in and out.  

If you are looking for some good cables on the cheap, check out this thread.  I directly compared the audioquest carbon coax vs the odin 2 knockoff coax and it outperformed the carbon.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aliexpress-cables.963919/page-36#post-17103379

Really interested your assessment once you receive the ock-1, I may follow your route.  Which dac do you have?


----------



## Igor375375 (Aug 19, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Which dac do you have?


Audio GD R-28 2022.


----------



## RONJA MESCO

DecentLevi said:


> The previously mentioned issue about my DI20 exhibiting awful static, and R/L channel mismatch on the majority of power-up cycles has currently been resolved, and astonishingly - it seemed to be all down to DAC pairings!!
> 
> Just last week I got the new Chord Mojo 2 portable DAC (which includes a modest internal amp) and paired it with the DI20, and. 'WALA' - the first startup worked just fine. Assuming it was just a normal random chance that the DI20 worked right, I carried on and enjoyed the FANTASTIC sound, that IMO comes darn close to the Chord Qutest... it took me a while to notice that in fact the pairing is actually trouble free in the long run. Each startup works perfectly and quickly, including with sample rate changes.
> 
> This is literally the 4th DAC I have paired with the DI20, all previous of which have exhibited the above static and channel reversal issue, which I had been used to troubleshooting on a daily basis by power cycling on / off the unit between 2 and 10 times until the audio comes out right. The first DAC being Schiit Modi 2 multibit (for this one I can't quite recall if it happened less frequent or not at all), then was Chord Qutest, then iFi Micro iDSD Black Label as a DAC. All of these connected with RCA coax cables, with the exception of the Qutest which had to use a custom BNC to RCA cable to be compatible with its input. And now for some reason even though my new DAC is also from Chord Electronics and also using a RCA digital coax cable, the problem is solved. I have a hunch it may have had to have something to do with a digital handshake between the DDC and the DAC. Probably not significant, but the difference now being with the new DAC is that the digital coax cable is RCA on the DI20 side and 2-pin 3.5mm on the DAC side, for compatibility.


THIS THIS THIS...I still have it happening to me from time to time. Sometimes I wondered if my issue was that I have everything fired up in my chain before it goto the DI-20 thus complicating the handshake. I do notice that the more, that when I have the DI-20 on before the rest of the signal chain (and whatever app I am using) that things work out better.


----------



## DecentLevi

I realized there may have been more to the issue with DI20 injecting static into the DAC randomly after some of the power-on cycles. It must have something to do with the (ridiculous) proprietary ACSS version of S/PDIF used by Audio-GD and it's compatibility with DACs of other brands via RCA coax. Especially when I was having to use a special cable that had BNC on one end and RCA on the other end, this was probably a lot of the fault with handshake or random compatibility rejection. At least with Chord Mojo 2 it's compatible, and hopefully my next DAC will like it too.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

The RCA coax input is normal S/PDIF and there are two coax outputs, one normal S/PDIF and one ACSS.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Aug 23, 2022)

My DI-20 base model is no longer seen by my newish PC. It works over coax so it's not dead.

I have removed and reinstalled the Windows drivers and rebooted a few times, nothing.

I can't find the info in this thread about reflashing amanero on the DI-20. Can somebody please remind me what to do? Thanks.

updated: big thanks to @DACLadder, info is here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/post-15427632


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> My DI-20 base model is no longer seen by my newish PC. It works over coax so it's not dead.
> 
> I have removed and reinstalled the Windows drivers and rebooted a few times, nothing.
> 
> I can't find the info in this thread about reflashing amanero on the DI-20. Can somebody please remind me what to do? Thanks.


If you just change PC, you likely need to install the amanero driver. Link there to download it:

http://www.audio-gd.com/pro/dac/Amanero/AmaneroEN.htm


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> If you just change PC, you likely need to install the amanero driver. Link there to download it:
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/pro/dac/Amanero/AmaneroEN.htm


Thank you @FredA

When I brought the PC up last week or so, I had already installed the latest drivers and was using the DI-20 over USB.

I don't know what happened, but the PC started giving errors that the USB device was not recognized. I did reinstall but it didn't fix it.

I found @DACLadder post from June 2020 where there was enough info to make me remember what to do. And he's right, something weird happens with the amanero firmware tool oemtool117u that you have to turn the DI-20 off between flashing CPLD and CPU. It says to erase the device so if you don't pay attention you could get yourself in a loop having it half installed 

Anyway, all ok now, thank you!


----------



## FredA

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thank you @FredA
> 
> When I brought the PC up last week or so, I had already installed the latest drivers and was using the DI-20 over USB.
> 
> ...


I can hardly stand down times with my setup. I erased the Amanero on my di20he 8 months ago or so, by accident. I was in panic mode! LOL!


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> I can hardly stand down times with my setup. I erased the Amanero on my di20he 8 months ago or so, by accident. I was in panic mode! LOL!



Yeah, I can definitely relate. I had the PC on its side to try to block the light coming out of the ethernet jack and I thought I might have pulled a cable loose. I checked everything and couldn't find anything wrong. 5 series of uninstalling Windows drivers, rebooting, reinstalling, nothing worked. Really annoying and I have no explanation. When it worked over RCA I knew the DI-20 itself must be ok. Big sigh of relief


----------



## bodiebill2

Today I received an SMSL VMV D2 DAC that I want to use as follows:
    DSD files --> DI-20HE --> I2S --> D2
Both devices have settings to adjust the I2S pin layouts and I believe I tried all permutations. However I get no music, just distorted noise.
The DI-20HE shows 64, 128 or 256 (whatever applies), but the D2 keeps showing 44, 88 or 176.
Are these devices incompatible? Could it be that the D2 expects a 'DSD flag' or 'Mode' signal on pin 14 or 15 and that the DI-20HE does not send that?


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> Today I received an SMSL VMV D2 DAC that I want to use as follows:
> DSD files --> DI-20HE --> I2S --> D2
> Both devices have settings to adjust the I2S pin layouts and I believe I tried all permutations. However I get no music, just distorted noise.
> The DI-20HE shows 64, 128 or 256 (whatever applies), but the D2 keeps showing 44, 88 or 176.
> Are these devices incompatible? Could it be that the D2 expects a 'DSD flag' or 'Mode' signal on pin 14 or 15 and that the DI-20HE does not send that?


Something like this. Could also be related to the hdmi cable you use. If you use a regular cable including all lines,  it'a not the cable. PCM works ?


----------



## Jandu

bodiebill2 said:


> Today I received an SMSL VMV D2 DAC that I want to use as follows:
> DSD files --> DI-20HE --> I2S --> D2
> Both devices have settings to adjust the I2S pin layouts and I believe I tried all permutations. However I get no music, just distorted noise.
> The DI-20HE shows 64, 128 or 256 (whatever applies), but the D2 keeps showing 44, 88 or 176.
> Are these devices incompatible? Could it be that the D2 expects a 'DSD flag' or 'Mode' signal on pin 14 or 15 and that the DI-20HE does not send that?


For troubleshooting, try CD file, try to bypass DI20he, try other output from DI20he.


----------



## DACLadder

bodiebill2 said:


> Today I received an SMSL VMV D2 DAC that I want to use as follows:
> DSD files --> DI-20HE --> I2S --> D2
> Both devices have settings to adjust the I2S pin layouts and I believe I tried all permutations. However I get no music, just distorted noise.
> The DI-20HE shows 64, 128 or 256 (whatever applies), but the D2 keeps showing 44, 88 or 176.
> Are these devices incompatible? Could it be that the D2 expects a 'DSD flag' or 'Mode' signal on pin 14 or 15 and that the DI-20HE does not send that?


Audio GD only supports native DSD and no flags (I believe).  You probably just have to find compatible I2S output mode on the DI-20,and match that up ro an appropriate input mode on the D2 DAC.  See section 10 (pg 12) in the D2 DAC manual.  Then find a comparible pinout for DI-20 (1 of 4).  See links below…

https://www.smsl-audio.com/upload/portal/download/VMVD2Manual.pdf
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20HE/DI20HEEN_Use.htm


----------



## LostHisMarbles (Sep 1, 2022)

Am very interested in this one, only hesitating because i am -ideally- after a combo of an audio-gd DAC* and DDI that are both capable of being fed by an external clock.
i) i don't want "regen", am dead set against it as 40 years in this industry (am a pro, not only a consumer) i've yet to see one that doesn't mess with the sound in ways nothing should. Just my opinion here, i've read the thread, i know folks will disagree, they've "heard" it; i get that. Just me. Which personal opinion leads me to:
ii) for his dedicated, non regen R-1 and D-77 if i recall correctly? Clock 'IN' isn't an option. They're the ones i'm interested in, either one, due to space constraints.

And again, i'll probably buy the DI-20 alone, but.. ideally, you want the exact same clock feeding everything in the digital domain; everything.
I really like what i see in the pics (i can deduce enough just by looking at the PCB) and i love his prices.
So.. tempted, but not quite there. Yet 
* there's always the option of buying them and modifying them, sure, but bit of money for nothing then, plus i have a certain.. aversion towards the digital domain and not as much experience as in the analog. In short, i can't be asked ^^


----------



## dougms3

LostHisMarbles said:


> Am very interested in this one, only hesitating because i am -ideally- after a combo of an audio-gd DAC* and DDI that are both capable of being fed by an external clock.
> i) i don't want "regen", am dead set against it as 40 years in this industry (am a pro, not only a consumer) i've yet to see one that doesn't mess with the sound in ways nothing should. Just my opinion here, i've read the thread, i know folks will disagree, they've "heard" it; i get that. Just me. Which personal opinion leads me to:
> ii) for his dedicated, non regen R-1 and D-77 if i recall correctly? Clock 'IN' isn't an option. They're the ones i'm interested in, either one, due to space constraints.
> 
> ...


You could always ask him for an option thats not listed.  He may be willing to accomodate.

Just curious what would you modify?


----------



## bodiebill2 (Sep 1, 2022)

DACLadder said:


> Audio GD only supports native DSD and no flags (I believe).  You probably just have to find compatible I2S output mode on the DI-20,and match that up ro an appropriate input mode on the D2 DAC.  See section 10 (pg 12) in the D2 DAC manual.  Then find a comparible pinout for DI-20 (1 of 4).  See links below…
> 
> https://www.smsl-audio.com/upload/portal/download/VMVD2Manual.pdf
> http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20HE/DI20HEEN_Use.htm


Thanks all for your suggestions.
PCM works well from the DI-20HE over the same cable. Also, DSD works well directly into the D2 with a USB cable.
Trying another output than I2S does not make sense as only I2S does higher resolution DSD.
I did see all the I2S pin layout settings for both devices. The invert (D2) and swap (DI) settings are not so interesting as the just swap left and right. So 2x2 (D2) x2 (DI) = 8 permutations remain. I tried them all, but in all cases just static noise out of one channel. I give up on this one.

This is what Kingwa wrote to me:
"Since 2016, a lot DAC designs had not require the DSD flag , they can switch between DSD and PCM auto .
And the DSD flag has not the worldwide standard , the level and pin definition may different between different products so the Di20HE has not output the DSD flag."


----------



## gimmeheadroom

LostHisMarbles said:


> Am very interested in this one, only hesitating because i am -ideally- after a combo of an audio-gd DAC* and DDI that are both capable of being fed by an external clock.
> i) i don't want "regen", am dead set against it as 40 years in this industry (am a pro, not only a consumer) i've yet to see one that doesn't mess with the sound in ways nothing should. Just my opinion here, i've read the thread, i know folks will disagree, they've "heard" it; i get that. Just me. Which personal opinion leads me to:
> ii) for his dedicated, non regen R-1 and D-77 if i recall correctly? Clock 'IN' isn't an option. They're the ones i'm interested in, either one, due to space constraints.
> 
> ...



Not sure I fully understood your post but for the DDC look at DI-20HE which supports 10 MHz external clock and one of the R8 or better (lower numbers are higher tier products) R2R DACs, the latest revision also support external clock input.

Even without a master clock (which I have but it doesn't do 10 MHz) this is the most analog setup I have heard. To be more accurate, I no longer hear the gear, just the music.


----------



## LostHisMarbles (Sep 1, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Not sure I fully understood your post



No worries, English is my second language so probably on my end 
As mentioned above, i have space constraints so the R8 isn't a consideration unfortunately. This is all for a mini-system to listen from while i'm working.

As to how good or not a DAC is, any DAC, i can assure you it's even better if fed correctly by the same exact clock that feeds your digital interface. Guaranteed, bankable.
* that is of course assuming you have or need a digital interface in the first place, sure; i do, because said mini-sytem won't have a dedicated transport; will be 'fed' straight from the PC, so some form of isolation/reclocking is a must. Again, it's just for myworkbench. Limitations.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

LostHisMarbles said:


> No worries, English is my second language so probably on my end
> As mentioned above, i have space constraints so the R8 isn't a consideration unfortunately. This is all for a mini-system to listen from while i'm working.



I see. There is a new R-27HE all in one and the R-27 all in one, but I don't remember if they accept external clock input.



LostHisMarbles said:


> As to how good or not a DAC is, any DAC, i can assure you it's even better if fed correctly by the same exact clock that feeds your digital interface. Guaranteed, bankable.



Yes, I agree with that, it is a known principle from pro audio.



LostHisMarbles said:


> * that is of course assuming you have or need a digital interface in the first place, sure; i do, because said mini-sytem won't have a dedicated transport; will be 'fed' straight from the PC, so some form of isolation/reclocking is a must. Again, it's just for myworkbench. Limitations.



Most of us in the Audio-gd threads have a DI-20HE and one or more pieces of Audio-gd gear 

Right now at this moment I'm recording off my DI-20HE -> AES -> Mutec MC-3+ USB -> AES -> TASCAM DA-3000


----------



## LostHisMarbles

gimmeheadroom said:


> There is a new R-27HE all in one and the R-27 all in one



I thought about replying to this, then decided i shouldn't waste people's time; then i thought maybe i gave the wrong impression, so.. 

- I don't want an all-in-one, as i've only electrostatic headphones, it would be a waste of both space and money.
- I mentioned the two particular models (R-1 or D-77) as primarily my issue is with width, not height; got this tiiiny shelf i intend to cram everything on top of one another, think a mini-stack?

Again though, i appreciate the help


----------



## gimmeheadroom

LostHisMarbles said:


> I thought about replying to this, then decided i shouldn't waste people's time; then i thought maybe i gave the wrong impression, so..
> 
> - I don't want an all-in-one, as i've only electrostatic headphones, it would be a waste of both space and money.
> - I mentioned the two particular models (R-1 or D-77) as primarily my issue is with width, not height; got this tiiiny shelf i intend to cram everything on top of one another, think a mini-stack?
> ...


I see, sorry for the misunderstanding. When you wrote "mini system" my thoughts headed toward all-in-one.

In that case I would recommend contacting Kingwa to see if he is willing to rig up a clock input for the R-1. I'm sure his chipdacs are excellent, but most of the guys here are fans of his R2R DACs.


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> In that case I would recommend contacting Kingwa to see if he is willing to rig up a clock input for the R-1.


Unfortunately, R-1 board is not capable to accept 10 MHz external clock. Only Mk2 versions have on-board clock synthesiser, R-1 is still at Mk1 level. But speak, maybe this fall...

It would be great, as Mk2 board is also better optimised for jitter, there is a significant improvement is SQ. If upgraded to Mk2, it would be a killer.


----------



## bodiebill2

comzee said:


> Thanks, that makes sense! Should work then. I'll update the thread with definitive answer once I get it in.


hi @comzee , did you manage to get I2S working with the DI-20HE and the Gustard X26 DAC? And if yes, for DSD as well?


----------



## LostHisMarbles (Sep 1, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> curious what would you modify?



I think i missed your post earlier today, only just saw it; apologies.
Been mentioned in a previous post of mine, would just add a clock input somewhere (on the DAC obviously); the hussle is the backplate believe it or not, not the PCB modifications 
I'd need to first take it all apart, do my mod, calculate where i need the extra socket, unscrew backplate, mark it, drill it, enlarge hole bit by bit (never drill a hole straight to the diameter you're after if you want a good job), reassemble, resolder.. it's a minor thing technically speaking, but in practice.. can't be asked, i claim age!

But i'll ask him, yeah.
I really like how you always get a response with him, fast too; no robots, no nothing. All these questions must take up a lot of his time, i know what _that_ can be like; so he has my respect, i'll say that ^^


----------



## FredA

LostHisMarbles said:


> Am very interested in this one, only hesitating because i am -ideally- after a combo of an audio-gd DAC* and DDI that are both capable of being fed by an external clock.
> i) i don't want "regen", am dead set against it as 40 years in this industry (am a pro, not only a consumer) i've yet to see one that doesn't mess with the sound in ways nothing should. Just my opinion here, i've read the thread, i know folks will disagree, they've "heard" it; i get that. Just me. Which personal opinion leads me to:
> ii) for his dedicated, non regen R-1 and D-77 if i recall correctly? Clock 'IN' isn't an option. They're the ones i'm interested in, either one, due to space constraints.
> 
> ...


You would be very surprised how good the r2r 11 mkii sounds fed through rca spdif by an externally clocked di20/he. Even without a clock input.


----------



## LostHisMarbles (Sep 1, 2022)

@FredA appreciate the input Fred 
Will almost certainly bite the bullet and call it a day, lol, but as i've got a couple of other purchases prioritised i'm.. mostly procrastinating? Pondering on it some more anyhow.

* The real funny part will be if it impresses me; that would be bad. 'Cause then i'd have to change my second system too, wouldn't i. Never ends this thing, never ^^


----------



## FredA

LostHisMarbles said:


> @FredA appreciate the input Fred
> Will almost certainly bite the bullet and call it a day, lol, but as i've got a couple of other purchases prioritised i'm.. mostly procrastinating? Pondering on it some more anyhow.
> 
> * The real funny part will be if it impresses me; that would be bad. 'Cause then i'd have to change my second system too, wouldn't i. Never ends this thing, never ^^


Yeah, never ending it is. I just ordered and silver dc cable to possibly upgrade the streaming and have applied Stabilant 22 contact enhancer to my streamer psu's fuse. Took a day to show benefits. i don't know if it is a coincidence but the staging has acquired another dimension it seems.


----------



## comzee

bodiebill2 said:


> hi @comzee , did you manage to get I2S working with the DI-20HE and the Gustard X26 DAC? And if yes, for DSD as well?


Yes the DI-20HE i2s works with the Gustard X26.
I don't listen to DSD, or have any DSD tracks to test with.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

comzee said:


> Yes the DI-20HE i2s works with the Gustard X26.
> I don't listen to DSD, or have any DSD tracks to test with.


http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html?


----------



## bodiebill2 (Sep 2, 2022)

comzee said:


> Yes the DI-20HE i2s works with the Gustard X26.
> I don't listen to DSD, or have any DSD tracks to test with.


Thanks!

So I still do not know whether DSD via I2S would work in this setup. Kingwa writes about this: "If the DAC need DSD flag for work, that can't work well with the DI20HE , maybe no sound on the PCM or no sound on the DSD, depend on the DAC flag require design."

Not sure whether "that can't work well" means "there is a chance this will not work well" or "it will not work well"  

I wonder whether it would be possible to tweak the DAC to always receive the required signal on pin 15, even if this would mean that I could no longer play PCM via I2S (which would be no problem for me).

I have also asked Gustard.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 2, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> So I still do not know whether DSD via I2S would work in this setup. Kingwa writes about this: "If the DAC need DSD flag for work, that can't work well with the DI20HE , maybe no sound on the PCM or no sound on the DSD, depend on the DAC flag require design."
> 
> ...


A definitive answer is whether a DAC really need this flag or can also use auto-detection method *in a case pin is not connected*. This question Gustard must answer. For your SMSL DAC it is clear that DSD datastream is not detected. You can ask SMSL support centre about firmware upgrade that use autodetection. If they don't answer, it means that they don't have such plans.

Not sure whether my English is good enough to give a tip, but, let try. If you can force a DSD Flag pin to a level high, it will tell a DAC to interpret a datastream as DSD. Level 'high' is achieved by connecting a pin to the 5V power source by a resistor. It require DIY skills and may invalidate warranty.


----------



## bodiebill2

sajunky said:


> A definitive answer is whether a DAC really need this flag or can also use auto-detection method *in a case pin is not connected*. This question Gustard must answer. For your SMSL DAC it is clear that DSD datastream is not detected. You can ask SMSL support centre about firmware upgrade that use autodetection. If they don't answer, it means that they don't have such plans.
> 
> Not sure whether my English is good enough to give a tip, but, let try. If you can force a DSD Flag pin to a level high, it will tell a DAC to interpret a datastream as DSD. Level 'high' is achieved by connecting a pin to the 5V power source by a resistor. It require DIY skills and may invalidate warranty.


Thanks! I was secretly hoping that you would give your 2(?) cents  This is useful information for my quest... I have contacted SMSL as well as Gustard and will post the results here.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 2, 2022)

@bodiebill2 . Always in (@) your service.


----------



## Louisiana

If the question has been asked before, I apologize in advance.
What exactly are the differences between the DI-20 and DI-20HE?
Regenerative power supply, I've figured that out myself so far, but otherwise?

Background:
I've been the owner of an Audio-GD R28 for a month now, and I love the unit.
Today I got a Gustard U18 for testing, and am very happy with the difference I2s / USB.

So now I will order a DDC from Audio-GD in any case, the only question now is: better equal to the DI-20HE?


----------



## FredA

Louisiana said:


> What exactly are the differences between the DI-20 and DI-20HE?
> Regenerative power supply, I've figured that out myself so far, but otherwise?


That's it. Only difference.


----------



## Louisiana

FredA said:


> That's it. Only difference.



Thanks for the answer.
What would be your recommendation in my case?

Chain: Roon Rock -> Asus TinkerBord -> DietPi -> Audio GD R28 (2020 Model)

Since the normal DI-20 should be perfectly sufficient for me?


----------



## dougms3

Louisiana said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> What would be your recommendation in my case?
> 
> Chain: Roon Rock -> Asus TinkerBord -> DietPi -> Audio GD R28 (2020 Model)
> ...


I think the di20he is recommended if you have no power conditioning or if you want the best.  

Regenerative power is very expensive and although the di20he is a bit pricey, it's a bargain for a device with regenerative power.

I went with the HE because i didn't want to wonder what could have been.


----------



## FredA

Louisiana said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> What would be your recommendation in my case?
> 
> Chain: Roon Rock -> Asus TinkerBord -> DietPi -> Audio GD R28 (2020 Model)
> ...


Yes it should.


----------



## bodiebill2

sajunky said:


> If you can force a DSD Flag pin to a level high, it will tell a DAC to interpret a datastream as DSD. Level 'high' is achieved by connecting a pin to the 5V power source by a resistor. It require DIY skills and may invalidate warranty.



If you say "the 5V power source", do you mean that this is already available somewhere in the DAC? If yes, where to look for it?
And about the resistor: what value and where would you put it?
Not that I will try anytime soon, just trying to understand...


----------



## sajunky

bodiebill2 said:


> If you say "the 5V power source", do you mean that this is already available somewhere in the DAC? If yes, where to look for it?
> And about the resistor: what value and where would you put it?
> Not that I will try anytime soon, just trying to understand...


5V can be found inside DAC. The best is to take from the power supply of the interface chip converting from LVDS (HDMI I2S signal lines) to the internal logic levels. It might be 3.3V, not 5V.

Resistor value is not critical, 1k to 10k will do. If wires go outside the case (to the external switch), 10nF film cap can be added in parallel to the ground, it will prevent triggering false detection of a noise.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> 5V can be found inside DAC. The best is to take from the power supply of the interface chip converting from LVDS (HDMI I2S signal lines) to the internal logic levels. It might be 3.3V, not 5V.
> 
> Resistor value is not critical, 1k to 10k will do. If wires go outside the case (to the external switch), 10nF film cap can be added in parallel to the ground, it will prevent triggering false detection of a noise.


Do you mean also to add a switch to force the dsd mode manually? Not very convenient.


----------



## bodiebill2

sajunky said:


> 5V can be found inside DAC. The best is to take from the power supply of the interface chip converting from LVDS (HDMI I2S signal lines) to the internal logic levels. It might be 3.3V, not 5V.
> 
> Resistor value is not critical, 1k to 10k will do. If wires go outside the case (to the external switch), 10nF film cap can be added in parallel to the ground, it will prevent triggering false detection of a noise.


Thanks! A bit daunting for me now -- without looking the the actual device -- but this info may come in handy in future.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 3, 2022)

FredA said:


> Do you mean also to add a switch to force the dsd mode manually? Not very convenient.


Not that inconvenient if everything is converted to DSD on the PC. Many Delta-Sigma users use this trick, as in some cases it allows to bypass couple stages of internal processing, giving better sound in result.

I even got a spark about suggesting Kingwa such option for DI-20, but I am R2R NOS user and play original source as it is, so it escaped my memory.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> Not that inconvenient if everything is converted to DSD on the PC. Many Delta-Sigma users use this trick, as in some cases it allows to bypass couple stages of internal processing, giving better sound in result.
> 
> I even got a spark about suggesting Kingwa such option for DI-20, but I am R2R NOS user and play original source as it is, so it escaped my memory.


Same here. I listen to old stuff (PCM). R2R is the best solution for me.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> Same here. I listen to old stuff (PCM). R2R is the best solution for me.



Here even jazz from 1928 is upsampled to DSD. Amazing how good some of these recordings are, f.i. those on the Okeh label.
I am sure it is setup dependent, but DSD here is more open, pristine, aristocratic, a bit cooler. I understand that many prefer PCM which to my ears is a tad warmer, but also more closed in. Of course the words we use already show our bias... Will it be champagne (DSD) or chocolate (PCM)? Both delicious.


----------



## Louisiana

bodiebill2 said:


> I am sure it is setup dependent, but DSD here is more open, pristine, aristocratic, a bit cooler.


Absolut!
With my Pro iDSD i prefer DSD, upsampling with HQPlayer, with my R28, i prefer PCM.
R2R with DSD sounds lifeless, in my opinion.


----------



## sajunky

Louisiana said:


> Absolut!
> With my Pro iDSD i prefer DSD, upsampling with HQPlayer, with my R28, i prefer PCM.
> R2R with DSD sounds lifeless, in my opinion.


The same. DSD sounds better on Delta-Sigma DACs, but a key difference gives R2R DAC, then an advantage of DSD is blown away.


----------



## bodiebill2

sajunky said:


> The same. DSD sounds better on Delta-Sigma DACs, but a key difference gives R2R DAC, then an advantage of DSD is blown away.



I forgot to say that I am now using a Merging Hapi DAC with Ravenna and DSD256. Very D/S indeed! Best DSD I have experienced so far.
And I also preferred DSD with Lampizator and Holo Audio Spring 3 L2. WIth Denafrips Terminator and Musician Pegasus, however, I found it difficult to decide between PCM and DSD.

I will soon add an R2R DAC to stay sane. Likely one with a 10 MHz clock input  Ogling a Gustard R26 -- hoping that it will work with the DI-20HE (research ongoing).


----------



## Louisiana

bodiebill2 said:


> I will soon add an R2R DAC to stay sane. Likely one with a 10 MHz clock input  Ogling a Gustard R26 -- hoping that it will work with the DI-20HE (research ongoing).



Skip the Gustard, and go to Audio-GD R28, or better, R27


----------



## bodiebill2 (Sep 3, 2022)

Louisiana said:


> Skip the Gustard, and go to Audio-GD R28, or better, R27



Can you elaborate a bit? Indeed I have been looking at these also, and even at the R7HE. Have you compared Gustard with the Audio-gd ones?
I want the 2nd DAC to excel at R2R *and* DSD.


----------



## Louisiana

bodiebill2 said:


> Can you elaborate a bit? Indeed I have been looking at these also, and even at the R7HE. Have you compared Gustard with the Audio-gd ones?



I haven't compared the units side by side yet, but have had a few units from Gustard in the past.
The build quality of the Audio-GD units is outstanding, and the sound is just stunning - no other manufacturer has convinced me like this in the past, and I have tried many, including various units from Denafrips, but none have lasted long.

My ifi stack (Pro iDSD & Pro iCAN ) has been collecting dust since I got the R28 




bodiebill2 said:


> I want the 2nd DAC to excel at R2R *and* DSD.


I think R2R and DSD do not fit together technically.
As written above, I love DSD upsampling with my Pro iDSD, but with the R28 I don't like it at all.
As far as I read here in the forum, actually also almost all Holo Audio DAC owners use PCM exclusively.

But at the end of the day, it's all a matter of taste. 

With me and Audio-GD it was love at first sight - or rather, at first sound.


----------



## bodiebill2

Louisiana said:


> With me and Audio-GD it was love at first sight - or rather, at first sound.



I am a great Audio-gd fan also! The DI-20HE and Vacuum HE-1 XLR are center pieces in my setup.
Perhaps I will end up with an Audio-gd DAC also, but I must admit I am intrigued by the ethernet input of the Gustard R26.


----------



## sajunky

bodiebill2 said:


> I am a great Audio-gd fan also! The DI-20HE and Vacuum HE-1 XLR are center pieces in my setup.
> Perhaps I will end up with an Audio-gd DAC also, but I must admit I am intrigued by the ethernet input of the Gustard R26.


It is great feature, but you already have DI-20. Therefore adding dedicated RPi 4 based network streamer is better option.

BTW, From the Audio GD DAC range, the lowest model with 10MHz external clock support is R-8Mk2. Affordable.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Sep 3, 2022)

Louisiana said:


> Absolut!
> With my Pro iDSD i prefer DSD, upsampling with HQPlayer, with my R28, i prefer PCM.
> R2R with DSD sounds lifeless, in my opinion.



I listen to a fair amount of DSD, usually SACD ISO via foobar2000 over my R8 MK2. It sounds great.


----------



## rsbrsvp

A question for my friends:    When the DI is hooked up to the R-7HE, and there is an external 10mhz clock connected to the DI and to the R-7HE, are the clocks in sync like a word clock?


----------



## bodiebill2

sajunky said:


> A definitive answer is whether a DAC really need this flag or can also use auto-detection method *in a case pin is not connected*. This question Gustard must answer. For your SMSL DAC it is clear that DSD datastream is not detected. You can ask SMSL support centre about firmware upgrade that use autodetection. If they don't answer, it means that they don't have such plans.



Gustard answered my question:
"For R26, when DSD is played back from IIS port, a flag must be given at pin 15. Otherwise, the screen will always display PCM and cannot give the correct sample rate display."
Although they are only talking about 'screen' and 'display', I assume that -- as in the case of the SMSL VMV D2 -- neither will proper playback work in that case.
I will ask them about the auto-detect option via future firmware.

Now I will be shopping for an Audio-gd DAC with 10 MHz clock input. I am considering the R8HE MK2.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> I am a great Audio-gd fan also! The DI-20HE and Vacuum HE-1 XLR are center pieces in my setup.
> Perhaps I will end up with an Audio-gd DAC also, but I must admit I am intrigued by the ethernet input of the Gustard R26.


It has a built in streamer.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> A question for my friends:    When the DI is hooked up to the R-7HE, and there is an external 10mhz clock connected to the DI and to the R-7HE, are the clocks in sync like a word clock?


It is the same clock signal, so yes, the two gears work in synch. Both derive their word clock from the 10m using the same method so end up with synched word clock. There can be a phase difference of course but they are synched.


----------



## Jake2

bodiebill2 said:


> Gustard answered my question:
> "For R26, when DSD is played back from IIS port, a flag must be given at pin 15. Otherwise, the screen will always display PCM and cannot give the correct sample rate display."
> Although they are only talking about 'screen' and 'display', I assume that -- as in the case of the SMSL VMV D2 -- neither will proper playback work in that case.
> I will ask them about the auto-detect option via future firmware.
> ...


@ bodiebill

I've been following your investigations on this with great interest, as I'd recently purchased the SMSL VMV D2 with the intention of pairing it with the DI-20HE to handle an almost exclusively native DSD input source. All rather disappointing. On the plus side I fortuitously stumbled across your comments just before I pulled the trigger on the DI-20HE, if not the D2. So I really appreciate all the info you've provided in terms of pin layouts and info from Audio-Gd and Gustard, and IIRC, a still-open query to SMSL.

For what is is worth, as an alternative to the 5v manual re-wiring workaround being raised, one possible option that occurred to me, would be to order a bespoke hdmi cable with a remapping from a 'live' but redundant (for me) non-DSD pin on the DI-20HE switched to 'on/1, and repoint it at the D2's pin 15, which would hopefully give it the 5v trigger it needs. No idea if this would work and/or problems with doing so, or which pin(s) might be candidates for this. 

Cheers, Jake
Long time lurker, first time poster


----------



## rsbrsvp (Sep 5, 2022)

FredA said:


> It is the same clock signal, so yes, the two gears work in synch. Both derive their word clock from the 10m using the same method so end up with synched word clock. There can be a phase difference of course but they are synched.


Interesting that most "official" word clock dacs have two inputs for 44 and 48?  This makes me question if single input dacs like audio-gd are synchronizing with external clocks.  I recently bought a new dac called HIBIKI SDS and the external clock feature has two inputs.  I think the Denifrips Dacs do also.



FredA said:


> It has a built in streamer.


Can the gustard be fed direct from a ethernet cable from my router?   If so- isn't this simply "the best" solution as it avoids usb and HDMI and is as direct as possible?  Why doesn't Kingwa put an ethernet input on his dacs?


----------



## bodiebill2

Jake2 said:


> @ bodiebill
> 
> I've been following your investigations on this with great interest, as I'd recently purchased the SMSL VMV D2 with the intention of pairing it with the DI-20HE to handle an almost exclusively native DSD input source. All rather disappointing. On the plus side I fortuitously stumbled across your comments just before I pulled the trigger on the DI-20HE, if not the D2. So I really appreciate all the info you've provided in terms of pin layouts and info from Audio-Gd and Gustard, and IIRC, a still-open query to SMSL.
> 
> ...



hi Jake, creative idea, I recognize the 'don't give up' mentality ☺️ But better to await guidance from someone more technical than me.

The DI-20HE I would not like to be without, so I sent back the D2, will avoid the R26, and get myself an R8HE MK2 with 75 Ohm clock input. No fancy stuff like volume control or streamer, but usually these disappoint anyway.


----------



## FredA

rsbrsvp said:


> Can the gustard be fed direct from a ethernet cable from my router? If so- isn't this simply "the best" solution as it avoids usb and HDMI and is as direct as possible? Why doesn't Kingwa put an ethernet input on his dacs?


Having the streamer built-in is a compromise. These connections are a source of noise. Can work very well but you don't get the same level of isolation to noise. The rj45 is not galvanically isolated by default.


----------



## bodiebill2

Gustard promise additional functionality via firmware in future. NAA would be nice.
I never liked streaming SQ wise until I used Diretta, and now Ravenna. So it depends on the SW implementation and HW (fiber, EtherRegen etc.).
Sorry, I realize this rather belongs in the Gustard thread...


----------



## sajunky

rsbrsvp said:


> Interesting that most "official" word clock dacs have two inputs for 44 and 48? This makes me question if single input dacs like audio-gd are synchronizing with external clocks. I recently bought a new dac called HIBIKI SDS and the external clock feature has two inputs. I think the Denifrips Dacs do also.


Two "official" clock inputs was an established standard for many years, but recently is replaced with a single 10MHz input. A single cable means less crowding, it also makes a system more immune to the electromagnetic interference (EMI) that would generate between two cables. It is a latest trend. Your concern is whether 10MHz clock provide a perfect synchronisation, the answer is YES. It is done with the latest technology called a digital clock synthesiser implemented in FPGA. All DACs in this price range are bulit on a basis of very complex FPGA, these circuits are not 100% utilised, so adding a clock synthesiser is a matter of having necessary skills with only few external components.

One warning. You won't be able to use your SBS clock with Denafrips Terminator Plus/II. It has a reversed function (output, not input), it will work only with Denafrips DDC as nobody else do the same.


rsbrsvp said:


> Can the gustard be fed direct from a ethernet cable from my router? If so- isn't this simply "the best" solution as it avoids usb and HDMI and is as direct as possible? Why doesn't Kingwa put an ethernet input on his dacs?


Yes, network streaming is an interesting trend, but still immature. It is probably sponsored by such guys like Roon. Ask them whether it runs proprietary software or you can use open source software and which one. As long there is no established standard, I would rather install a small box based on RPi 4 with HDMI I2S output. There is also a concern of ground loops on the long Ethernet cable. @FredA has mentioned it, for this reason I would also prefer to wire network streamer to a DDC, not directly to a DAC.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I run Bluesound boxes into both my DI-20s over coax. On the big rig it then goes from the DI-20HE via IIS into my R8 MK2 and also into a Mutec MC3+ USB via AES/EBU and then on to wherever (i.e. R8 over AES/EBU or other devices).

In the headstation, from the DI-20 into a Brooklyn DAC+ over AES/EBU and an RME ADI-2 DAC FS over coax. RME doesn't have AES/EBU input on the non-pro model.

The Bluesound might not be the ultimate in sound quality but it's a convenient solution since it supports more streaming services than any other devices I'm aware of, it supports MQA, and the apps on Windows, Android etc. control multiple devices in one place.


----------



## FredA

For a streamer, i prefer one with a clean usb output, ideally with a 10M input, and let the di20he do the interfacing with the dac. . The Sotm fits that bill but its price is a bit high for what it is.


----------



## FredA

Took the stabilant 22 contact enhancer off the streamer psu's fuse this morning. Won't be using it for a while... It made the sound sterile. Maybe i was not patient enough... The sound has more body without it. 200cad for this....


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> For a streamer, i prefer one with a clean usb output, ideally with a 10M input, and let the di20he do the interfacing with the dac. . The Sotm fits that bill but its price is a bit high for what it is.



An Afterdark Rossana streamer with the right options also fits the bill.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Sep 5, 2022)

sajunky said:


> Two "official" clock inputs was an established standard for many years, but recently is replaced with a single 10MHz input. A single cable means less crowding, it also makes a system more immune to the electromagnetic interference (EMI) that would generate between two cables. It is a latest trend. Your concern is whether 10MHz clock provide a perfect synchronisation, the answer is YES. It is done with the latest technology called a digital clock synthesiser implemented in FPGA. All DACs in this price range are bulit on a basis of very complex FPGA, these circuits are not 100% utilised, so adding a clock synthesiser is a matter of having necessary skills with only few external components.
> 
> One warning. You won't be able to use your SBS clock with Denafrips Terminator Plus/II. It has a reversed function (output, not input), it will work only with Denafrips DDC as nobody else do the same.
> 
> Yes, network streaming is an interesting trend, but still immature. It is probably sponsored by such guys like Roon. Ask them whether it runs proprietary software or you can use open source software and which one. As long there is no established standard, I would rather install a small box based on RPi 4 with HDMI I2S output. There is also a concern of ground loops on the long Ethernet cable. @FredA has mentioned it, for this reason I would also prefer to wire network streamer to a DDC, not directly to a DAC.


I don't get the problem.  Put a Uptone Audio etherregen between the Ethernet connection and the Gutard or a phoenixnet.  These reclock, galvanically isolate, etc..  Why introduce HDMI or SPDIF?.  There are all kinds of fancy ethernet isolating mechanisms on the market....   Kingwa needs to add ehternet as another option for the DI input and output...


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> An Afterdark Rossana streamer with the right options also fits the bill.


It is based off a rpi4 so likely inferior. I don't see any 10M input in the description but Adrian's descriptions are messy. 

There is a used sotm sms200 neo ultra with 10M input offered on a forum. Not sure if worth the upgrade compared to my Usbridge sig.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> It is based off a rpi4 so likely inferior. I don't see any 10M input in the description but Adrian's descriptions are messy.
> 
> There is a used sotm sms200 neo ultra with 10M input offered on a forum. Not sure if worth the upgrade compared to my Usbridge sig.



I bought the Rossana with the 10M input option, plus I2S etc. I also have the SE of the SOtM sMS-200 Ultra Neo with the 10M input. I mostly use Rossana as I prefer Diretta which can run on GentooPlayer on the RPi4.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> I bought the Rossana with the 10M input option, plus I2S etc. I also have the SE of the SOtM sMS-200 Ultra Neo with the 10M input. I mostly use Rossana as I prefer Diretta which can run on GentooPlayer on the RPi4.


How much with usb out only and 10M input? It beats the Sotm soundwise?


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> How much with usb out only and 10M input? It beats the Sotm soundwise?


I did prefer it, but that was only after using the Diretta network protocol.

Looking at the Afterdark website... I notice that Adrian removed the clock option. Actually I had a problem with my Rossana and it is now for service with Adrian... Maybe there is a more general problem with the clock function... I hope to hear back any day now.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> For a streamer, i prefer one with a clean usb output, ideally with a 10M input, and let the di20he do the interfacing with the dac. . The Sotm fits that bill but its price is a bit high for what it is.


The new Bluesound Node was said to have finally received the promised firmware update that lets it talk to a USB DAC or DDC. I didn't buy it though since I don't have a free USB input on either of my DI-20s. Anyway, it could be on the list to consider if somebody wants a transport that will stream over USB. The BluOS app is quite good.


----------



## iFi audio

Louisiana said:


> My ifi stack (Pro iDSD & Pro iCAN ) has been collecting dust since I got the R28



Ouch! I trust that this stack served you well. Now enjoy your R28


----------



## sajunky

rsbrsvp said:


> I don't get the problem.  Put a Uptone Audio etherregen between the Ethernet connection and the Gutard or a phoenixnet.  These reclock, galvanically isolate, etc..  Why introduce HDMI or SPDIF?.  There are all kinds of fancy ethernet isolating mechanisms on the market....   Kingwa needs to add ehternet as another option for the DI input and output...


Well, if works, why not? You don't need HDMI nor S/PDIF, but you need Bluetooth... .LOL. 
I only comment on the fact that reclock of Ethernet is a marketing bull, the same as reclocking of USB connection.

In my opinion adding Ethernet to a DAC is like turning TV set into a smart TV. Once it happen, you have to replace TV every two years. The same will be with a "Smart DAC", while in a current plain setup with I2S-HDMI or S/PDIF it will serve me for the next 15 years.


----------



## FredA

Two points though: making the usb signal less noisy is worth the effort. Second point: synching the usb source with the receiver will reduce noise. No back and forth to regulate the data flow. One could argue that a better clocked usb source would also help. I know the Usbridge sounds better than a regular pi. 

As for the streamer being built-in, it could disabled. At least in the case the Gustard r26, it seems likely. They could offer it as an option, it would make much sense. What would also make sense would be to use the r26 within a simpler setup for the living room. Just add speakers and a power amp and you are good to go. This is trendy. 

It is not a real hardcore audiophile setup, but a good setup nonetheless. If you can beat the sound quality of r28 fed by a pi, why not. But not my thing for sure. I prefer keeping the different functions separate.


----------



## sajunky

FredA said:


> Second point: synching the usb source with the receiver will reduce noise. No back and forth to regulate the data flow. One could argue that a better clocked usb source would also help.


Hmmmm... USB root hub shares a bandwith with all connected devices. So no, it is not possible for USB frames to arrive at strictly regular intervals. In the past it was called synchronous mode. 

No. Better clocked USB source doesn't help, not at all. Some other factors might cause such device to sound better.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> Hmmmm... USB root hub shares a bandwith with all connected devices. So no, it is not possible for USB frames to arrive at strictly regular intervals. In the past it was called synchronous mode.
> 
> No. Better clocked USB source doesn't help, not at all. Some other factors might cause such device to sound better.


Possibly. I am no expert.  Some have said otherwise. I would have to look into it deeply but i am short in time and energy. So i won't argue. You know more than me on this topic. 

Not all usb audio outputs are born equal, that will be my take for now.


----------



## bodiebill2

bodiebill2 said:


> Looking at the Afterdark website... I notice that Adrian removed the clock option. Actually I had a problem with my Rossana and it is now for service with Adrian... Maybe there is a more general problem with the clock function... I hope to hear back any day now.



I asked Adrian and the Rossana is still available with the 10 MHz clock input:
https://www.adark.co/products/after...osanna-network-bridge-x-ocxo-10m-master-clock

And mine is fixed


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> I asked Adrian and the Rossana is still available with the 10 MHz clock input:
> https://www.adark.co/products/after...osanna-network-bridge-x-ocxo-10m-master-clock
> 
> And mine is fixed


Can it be used as a standalone player? I guess so, you just need to insert an sd card with the sw you want. A weak point is the usb out is just a rpi 4b standard out, from what i see.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> Can it be used as a standalone player? I guess so, you just need to insert an sd card with the sw you want. A weak point is the usb out is just a rpi 4b standard out, from what i see.



Yes, you can use it as a standalone player. I believe it comes with a moOde SD. I am using GentooPlayer with Diretta or NAA. USB drives can be attached, however my experience with that is not so good in general, so I did not try with Rossana.

You may be right about the USB output. I imagine though that the LPS inside Rossana helps, and the DI-20HE cleans up things further. I assume that the SOtM sMS-200 Neo Ultra has a better dedicated USB implementation, but I cannot say that it sounds better -- using the DI-20HE that is.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> Yes, you can use it as a standalone player. I believe it comes with a moOde SD. I am using GentooPlayer with Diretta or NAA. USB drives can be attached, however my experience with that is not so good in general, so I did not try with Rossana.
> 
> You may be right about the USB output. I imagine though that the LPS inside Rossana helps, and the DI-20HE cleans up things further. I assume that the SOtM sMS-200 Neo Ultra has a better dedicated USB implementation, but I cannot say that it sounds better -- using the DI-20HE that is.


Synching the processor with the 10M input possibly makes a difference. Can you a/b with and without or it has to be connected at all time?


----------



## bodiebill2 (Sep 6, 2022)

FredA said:


> Synching the processor with the 10M input possibly makes a difference. Can you a/b with and without or it has to be connected at all time?



No A/B alas as it exclusively works with an external clock. In my case an Afterdark Trifecta.Emperor Double Crown. This has 3 connections, and soon I will have 4 candidates: EtherRegen, streamer, DDC, DAC. Which would you connect? I guess the latter 3?


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> No A/B alas as it exclusively works with an external clock. In my case an Afterdark Trifecta.Emperor Double Crown. This has 3 connections, and soon I will have 4 candidates: EtherRegen, streamer, DDC, DAC. Which would you connect? I guess the latter 3?


Yes.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I'm with @sajunky on this, don't bother reclocking USB or ethernet.


----------



## Stellabagpuss

Hi ,
Hope you guy can help. Just got my hands on a DI 20HD,and been having a hard time getting it to work.
l run ,Win 10 PC with Jriver mc29,l output via MATRIX AUDIO ELEMENT H USB CARD, l have selected Amereo drivers and l can see that the output is reaching the GD, and indeed different sample rates are being displayed on GD. 
However l cannot seem to output via l2s, l can actually hear a quiet distorted sound of the audio.
My DAC is a SMSL M400, l can see that the DAC is getting a signal, but is permanently on DSD setting,although l only output PCM from the PC.
Naturally l am frustrated,having gone through the settings many times. 
Could you chaps double check, l believe my issue is that the GD I2s output is not compatible with my M400 DAC. l believe its pin 19 can a glance, could be more pins. 

https://www.smsl-audio.com/portal/product/detail/id/547.html

l would post a diagram, but l can seem where to upload it,

ll would really appreciate it you could look, before l go crazy 🤪
Many thanks


----------



## Stellabagpuss

Stellabagpuss said:


> Hi ,
> Hope you guy can help. Just got my hands on a DI 20HD,and been having a hard time getting it to work.
> l run ,Win 10 PC with Jriver mc29,l output via MATRIX AUDIO ELEMENT H USB CARD, l have selected Amereo drivers and l can see that the output is reaching the GD, and indeed different sample rates are being displayed on GD.
> However l cannot seem to output via l2s, l can actually hear a quiet distorted sound of the audio.
> ...


Forgot to mention, l also run a Gustard U18 with this setup without a hitch


----------



## FredA (Sep 6, 2022)

Stellabagpuss said:


> Hi ,
> Hope you guy can help. Just got my hands on a DI 20HD,and been having a hard time getting it to work.
> l run ,Win 10 PC with Jriver mc29,l output via MATRIX AUDIO ELEMENT H USB CARD, l have selected Amereo drivers and l can see that the output is reaching the GD, and indeed different sample rates are being displayed on GD.
> However l cannot seem to output via l2s, l can actually hear a quiet distorted sound of the audio.
> ...


First and foremost, no hot plugging /unplugging of the hdmi cable.
 The smsl has to be configured in normal i2s mode and the di20he has to have the 3rd digit set to "n" and the fourth set to "2" in  the settings mode.

Follow this :
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN_Use.htm

I got the smsl pin def here

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/stre...ac-es9038pro-aesebu-hdmi-i2s-mqa-p-14680.html


----------



## Stellabagpuss (Sep 6, 2022)

FredA said:


> First and foremost, no hot plugging /unplugging of the hdmi cable.
> The smsl has to be configured in normal i2s mode and the di20he has to have the 3rd digit set to "n" and the fourth set to "2" in  the settings mode.
> 
> Follow this :
> ...


Okay ,l will try this out tomorrow, fingers crossed, btw no hot pluging, M400 is set to normal l2s when running to the Gustard U18.
l will report back.

One other question, l presume l use the WASPI Amereo driver for replay


----------



## FredA

Stellabagpuss said:


> Okay ,l will try this out tomorrow, fingers crossed, btw no hot pluging, M400 is set to normal l2s when running to the Gustard U18.
> l will report back.
> 
> One other question, l presume l use the WASPI Amereo driver for replay


Wasapi works on pc with foobar. Should be ok.


----------



## FredA

Stellabagpuss said:


> Okay ,l will try this out tomorrow, fingers crossed, btw no hot pluging, M400 is set to normal l2s when running to the Gustard U18.
> l will report back.
> 
> One other question, l presume l use the WASPI Amereo driver for replay


You possibly have a driver issue cause whatever the i2s output settings, it should display 44.1, 48.0, 88.2, 96.0, 176, 192 or 384 if you play pcm. Have you installed the amanero driver?


----------



## LostHisMarbles (Sep 6, 2022)

Have already mentioned this in my precious few posts here, but am old; young at heart though!
With age comes a certain.. unwillingness? To accept or even consider new things 

Partly this, partly my near exclusively working on analog (different budget, so unfair a comparison, but am mentioning it so you know whom you're talking to), i initially went /sigh on the whole L2S thing. You know, new trends again, they have to sell something "new", more software alchemies, etc etc.
But tonight i thought feck it, don't be such a grumpy old fart, just have a look.

I see why, i get it. A bit hesitant still due to the nature of the cables required, too many pins, too close to one another, too thin wires, too little space for proper insulation(s). But it's sound, they use what the industry already has to offer, so O.K., HDMI; and it makes sense, just for separating that bedamned clock alone and entirely at that.. leave some connections unused in between, separate left from right even more, makes sense.

This Kingwa dude, i like him 
(if i typed the name wrong, no offense meant)

Have thus decided on going through with purchasing both DAC and DI from him; new experiments await me. For starters, forget HDMI, i'll do my own "L2S", using the same Oyaide cabling i use for other signal cables and am thinking some gold-plated Amphenol plugs (multi-pinned). So i can compare apples to apples.

P.S. I maintain however that nothing comes close to a good analog setup!
I had to say that, lol
P.P.S. One must also note i go through all this for a third, during-workhours-only subsystem. Totally reasonable and responsible attitude, right, it's why she loves me so much!


----------



## FredA

LostHisMarbles said:


> Have already mentioned this in my precious few posts here, but am old; young at heart though!
> With age comes a certain.. unwillingness? To accept or even consider new things
> 
> Partly this, partly my near exclusively working on analog (different budget, so unfair a comparison, but am mentioning it so you know whom you're talking to), i initially went /sigh on the whole L2S thing. You know, new trends again, they have to sell something "new", more software alchemies, etc etc.
> ...


L2S? You mean I2S perhaps... 

Get an 10M external clock and hook it up. You won't see much a difference in terms of analogness.


----------



## LostHisMarbles (Sep 6, 2022)

FredA said:


> L2S? You mean I2S perhaps...



Tell me a mere typing mistake is enough to trigger you 

* Takes a special kind of person to correct a non native English speaking stranger in such a manner, but i will out of politeness assume this is mere strictness on your end solely out of sheer love for the application at hand and without any character-related traits attached; and thus explain that if you're Greek, i and l (γιώτα and λάμδα) can be confusing while typing in English, especially if rushing it.
I do appreciate the correction however, as an error is always an error


----------



## FredA

LostHisMarbles said:


> Tell me a mere typing mistake is enough to trigger you
> 
> * Takes a special kind of person to correct a non native English speaking stranger in such a manner, but i will out of politeness assume this is mere strictness on your end solely out of sheer love for the application at hand and without any character-related traits attached; and thus explain that if you're Greek, i and l (γιώτα and λάμδα) can be confusing while typing in English, especially if rushing it.
> I do appreciate the correction however, as an error is always an error


Not really.

Get ready for the painful burn-in. A real roller-coaster but worth the pain.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Stellabagpuss said:


> Okay ,l will try this out tomorrow, fingers crossed, btw no hot pluging, M400 is set to normal l2s when running to the Gustard U18.
> l will report back.
> 
> One other question, l presume l use the WASPI Amereo driver for replay



Use ASIO drivers for the best results and diagnostic effect.


----------



## sean perth (Sep 7, 2022)

Hi
Looking for some advice, regarding whether to go for the DI-20 or save and get the HE,  I have a Auralic Aries G1 connected to an Accurate D1000 DAC, my DAC has I2S so would like to utilise
that.
Thoughts please and why would I buy the HE over the standard

cheers

Sean


----------



## bodiebill2

Stellabagpuss said:


> Okay ,l will try this out tomorrow, fingers crossed, btw no hot pluging, M400 is set to normal l2s when running to the Gustard U18.
> l will report back.
> 
> One other question, l presume l use the WASPI Amereo driver for replay



Reminds me of a similar -- but opposite -- issue I had with a SMSL VMV D2, which probably has the same I2S pinout as the M400.
In my case I could only play PCM but no DSD over I2S as the DI-20HE does not have pins 14 or 15 connected that are needed to send the M400 the DSD flag (also called PCM/DSD mode). I returned the D2 for that reason. It seems that on your M400 the flag keeps set at DSD, but cannot be switched to PCM?


----------



## sajunky

bodiebill2 said:


> It seems that on your M400 the flag keeps set at DSD, but cannot be switched to PCM?


Yeah...looks like. But at least on M400 polarity of a flag can be reversed. Still inconvenient...


----------



## Stellabagpuss

FredA said:


> You possibly have a driver issue cause whatever the i2s output settings, it should display 44.1, 48.0, 88.2, 96.0, 176, 192 or 384 if you play pcm. Have you installed the amanero driver?


That's why l believe the drivers are fine and the usb output,  frequency is being displayed ,will report back tonight, thanks for the pointers, a great help


----------



## Stellabagpuss

bodiebill2 said:


> Reminds me of a similar -- but opposite -- issue I had with a SMSL VMV D2, which probably has the same I2S pinout as the M400.
> In my case I could only play PCM but no DSD over I2S as the DI-20HE does not have pins 14 or 15 connected that are needed to send the M400 the DSD flag (also called PCM/DSD mode). I returned the D2 for that reason. It seems that on your M400 the flag keeps set at DSD, but cannot be switched to PCM?


Aha, so l won't be able to output PCM ?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sean perth said:


> Hi
> Looking for some advice, regarding whether to go for the DI-20 or save and get the HE,  I have a Auralic Aries G1 connected to an Accurate D1000 DAC, my DAC has I2S so would like to utilise
> that.
> Thoughts please and why would I buy the HE over the standard
> ...


If you have questionable power line quality and/or not much in the way of budget constraint, get the HE.

If your power line quality is very good and you want a good DDC at a bargain price, and also have more limited space (the HE is quite deep) then get the base model.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 7, 2022)

Stellabagpuss said:


> Aha, so l won't be able to output PCM ?


According to the pinout (attached), M400 should play PCM, but not DSD on the I2S connection.

When using S/PDIF it should play PCM and DSD64, mabe even DSD128 on the AES (if any), not sure. Did you check if there is firmware update with autodetection?


----------



## FredA

Stellabagpuss said:


> Aha, so l won't be able to output PCM ?


Try to change the settings on the di20he as I stated. Could fix it, most likely.


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> Try to change the settings on the di20he as I stated. Could fix it, most likely.


You lost me. Or do you mean on the M400?


----------



## Stellabagpuss

Okay ...Sorted it ,settings for on GD are N on 3rd and 1 on 4th for l2s on display.
Also in the M400 DSD menu, l had to click the DSD flag option.
Happy and relieved now. 
Thanks for your help everyone 👍


----------



## FredA

[


Stellabagpuss said:


> Okay ...Sorted it ,settings for on GD are N on 3rd and 1 on 4th for l2s on display.
> Also in the M400 DSD menu, l had to click the DSD flag option.
> Happy and relieved now.
> Thanks for your help everyone 👍


Ok so these are the standard audio-gd settings...


----------



## Stellabagpuss

FredA said:


> [
> 
> Ok so these are the standard audio-gd settings...


l have no idea if it was set standard, as it's a used unit, but in a nutshell, it was the DSD FLAG option in the M400 that was stopping the M400 from producing any audio, and for some reason, just plugging the I2s cable made the M400 default to DSD,something the Gustard U18 doesn't do. 
l only use PCM, so you can see my confusion,l am guessing there's something in the  GD I2s Pins that's triggering DSD on the M400, anyway, now l have around it,l pretty happy.
One final question in regards to Parallel and Serial, being that l am using PCM, would l be better with P mode? I must admit,l am struggling to understand what change what advantages one has over the other?


----------



## FredA

Stellabagpuss said:


> l have no idea if it was set standard, as it's a used unit, but in a nutshell, it was the DSD FLAG option in the M400 that was stopping the M400 from producing any audio, and for some reason, just plugging the I2s cable made the M400 default to DSD,something the Gustard U18 doesn't do.
> l only use PCM, so you can see my confusion,l am guessing there's something in the  GD I2s Pins that's triggering DSD on the M400, anyway, now l have around it,l pretty happy.
> One final question in regards to Parallel and Serial, being that l am using PCM, would l be better with P mode? I must admit,l am struggling to understand what change what advantages one has over the other?


Parallel is better in theory. But you might prefer the sound of serial if you need more warmth.


----------



## sajunky

Stellabagpuss said:


> it was the DSD FLAG option in the M400 that was stopping the M400 from producing any audio, and for some reason, just plugging the I2s cable made the M400 default to DSD,something the Gustard U18 doesn't do.
> l only use PCM, so you can see my confusion,l am guessing there's something in the GD I2s Pins that's triggering DSD on the M400, anyway, now l have around it,l pretty happy.


I guess M400 pickup a noise on a pin that is floating free. It is wrong, it should have a stable 0 or 1 logic level when not connected. But it is idicative that you have attempted a hot plug, never do that. Always power off both devices before attaching or disconnecting HDMI plugs.


----------



## Stellabagpuss

sajunky said:


> I guess M400 pickup a noise on a pin that is floating free. It is wrong, it should have a stable 0 or 1 logic level when not connected. But it is idicative that you have attempted a hot plug, never do that. Always power off both devices before attaching or disconnecting HDMI plugs.


Both units where powered down, unless you flag the DSD setting in M400 menu is checked, it defaults to a DSD input, the l2s leads have remained in the sockets, without removal.


----------



## sajunky

Stellabagpuss said:


> Both units where powered down, unless you flag the DSD setting in M400 menu is checked, it defaults to a DSD input, the l2s leads have remained in the sockets, without removal.


I don't want to argue, just interpreting what you wrote clearly (according to my poor English, not what you meant). 

I want to add that if you find HDMI cable that do not have a wire for the  DSD_ID pin, it will be better for stability and also most likely for SQ as well. If present, it is left unterminated on one side, becoming a source for interference.


----------



## Stellabagpuss

Yes agreed, a bespoke would be great.
l currently run a Blue Jeans FE cable, tried a few, AVPLAY,  the Blue Jeans sounds the best in my setup.
l am just pleased  l found a option in the M400 to get it working. 
So no disagreement from my side. many thanks again for your insight and input


----------



## Stellabagpuss

FredA said:


> Parallel is better in theory. But you might prefer the sound of serial if you need more warmth.


Yes l find Parallel better to my ears, slightly clearer, very marginal. 
Thanks again


----------



## bodiebill2

FredA said:


> Got the c2 clock cable two hours ago.
> 
> Right from the start, clarity has improved, cymbal are better. Also, there is a better depiction of depth and the sound is more relaxed. So far, it's a winner. Very glad with my purchase.
> 
> ...



Does your DI-20HE have a 50 Ohm clock input? The C2's connectors appear to be 50 Ohm. As I have everything here at 75 Ohm, and without further information how they have achieved that the C2 discards impedance mismatches, I am reluctant to buy it.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> Does your DI-20HE have a 50 Ohm clock input? The C2's connectors appear to be 50 Ohm. As I have everything here at 75 Ohm, and without further information how they have achieved that the C2 discards impedance mismatches, I am reluctant to buy it.


Yes.

I understand.

The c2 makes the sound surgical thus leaner. But paired with the Gustard hdmi cable (1.5m) i just received (and which is now out of stock), i get such great sound. They are meant to be used together it seems.


----------



## FredA (Sep 9, 2022)

I hope the Gustard hdmi cable comes back in stock soon. Not expensive and my new favorite. It sells for under 50usd normally. Some are left on ali for around 200usd... The seller is jacking the price off...

Best cable i have tried. It stages really well and has a full sound. Great timbres. It is kind of mind-blowing how good it is.


----------



## Fibre101

Hello. I use the original di20 and was wondering if anyone else came across an issue I had. I was burning in a new headphone and my di20 randomly sent out a really loud ongoing beep to my r8, I had to volume down my amp and actually thought my headphones broke cause of how loud it was. Thankfully its fine but it was that loud since I heard it from another room. I then used AES and everything seems fine. I cant tell if its i2s or not since I always used i2s connections with my di20. I currently have the newest firmware for my r8 and 3.993 for the di20. Also, I use the popular Morion ocxo square wave.

 Luckily I didn't have the headphones on when the loud beep started or I may have lost hearing, no joke. If anyone else had this issue please let me know.


----------



## FredA

Fibre101 said:


> Hello. I use the original di20 and was wondering if anyone else came across an issue I had. I was burning in a new headphone and my di20 randomly sent out a really loud ongoing beep to my r8, I had to volume down my amp and actually thought my headphones broke cause of how loud it was. Thankfully its fine but it was that loud since I heard it from another room. I then used AES and everything seems fine. I cant tell if its i2s or not since I always used i2s connections with my di20. I currently have the newest firmware for my r8 and 3.993 for the di20. Also, I use the popular Morion ocxo square wave.
> 
> Luckily I didn't have the headphones on when the loud beep started or I may have lost hearing, no joke. If anyone else had this issue please let me know.


Perhaps an issue with your i2s cable. Never had such an issue. I used to use 3.933 and now am on 4.076.


----------



## Fibre101

I had the i2s cable (avplay silver) for a while. I might change the firmware to 4.076 just to be safe I guess. Thanks!


----------



## sajunky

Fibre101 said:


> I was burning in a new headphone and my di20 randomly sent out a really loud ongoing beep to my r8, I had to volume down my amp and actually thought my headphones broke cause of how loud it was. Thankfully its fine but it was that loud since I heard it from another room.


It can be not on the I2S connection, but on the USB. On Windows, such noise is generated when using WASAPI 'push' mode instead of 'event'. In the 'event' mode it is rather a random drop to silence for a fraction of second when losing sync, recovery is quick. A long USB cable can cause it, but more frequently it is due to the internal Windows latency issue and happens more frequent in a 'push' mode.


----------



## Fibre101 (Sep 10, 2022)

I dont use wasapi but I believe it is windows sync, since I did recently get a pure silver usb a few days ago. Still not sure but ever since I rebooted the di20 and used AES, I haven't experienced an issue.


----------



## Stellabagpuss

FredA said:


> Does not matter. It is for the clock output.


Sorry to bring an old Subject, just wondering if you confirm if this socket outputs  10MHZ or is it word clock? 
l run a AD clock on the 10mhz socket, would l be able to link via this socket a GUSTARD R26 DAC into its 10mhz socket?


----------



## bodiebill2

Stellabagpuss said:


> Sorry to bring an old Subject, just wondering if you confirm if this socket outputs  10MHZ or is it word clock?
> l run a AD clock on the 10mhz socket, would l be able to link via this socket a GUSTARD R26 DAC into its 10mhz socket?


*CLK OUT ：*
         Outputs 256fs main clock or LRCK/WCLK (3.3V LVDS @ 50 Ohm) . User-selectable .


----------



## Stellabagpuss

So what does it output? l presumably WCLK is wordclock? What is LRCK mean ?


----------



## bodiebill2

Word CLocK (WCLK) and Left Right ClocK (LRCK) are different names for the same clock signal.


----------



## Stellabagpuss

l see, so no daisy changing to another 10mhz dac, unless you use a word clock


----------



## FredA

Stellabagpuss said:


> Sorry to bring an old Subject, just wondering if you confirm if this socket outputs  10MHZ or is it word clock?
> l run a AD clock on the 10mhz socket, would l be able to link via this socket a GUSTARD R26 DAC into its 10mhz socket?


Yep, it the word clock.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 12, 2022)

Stellabagpuss said:


> l see, so no daisy changing to another 10mhz dac, unless you use a word clock


Daisy chaining is possible with BNC T-plug, but all devices in the middle must have internal terminators removed.

T-plug:
https://camarasdeseguridad.cr/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/t-bnc.jpg


----------



## jmmbarco

Hi guys! This is my first post in the thread.
I finally pulled the trigger and ordered the DI-20HE from MagnaHifi and I have some doubts about the interface I wish you could help me.

My setup is the following. My transport is a linux x86 based machine (external usb card from CoreAudio with Andrea Mori clocks) running naa, HQPlayer embedded connected via ethernet. Only PCM is being used because my DAC is TDA1541 based (abbas audio) with spdif input. Anyway it is possible that I get some kind of DSD DAC in near future so I am not limiting the use of DI-20HE to PCM. Currently, I am using a Mutec MC3+USB as interface connected via USB to transport and spdif to abbas dac.
DI-20HE will replace MC3+USB and will be conected to Afterdark Giesemann Double Crown 10Mhz clock (sinewave) as well.

I ordered the interface yesterday and it has not been shipped yet. Jos from MagnaHifi can update firmware on the device at no cost for me, which is a great value support IMO. SO finally my questions are: 
1. Should I perform an update to FPGA (DI-20V4.075 or DI-20V4.076) in the DI-20 taking into account my linux based setup?
2. Should I perform an update to the embedded Amanero CPLD_1081/CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDSD and CPU firmware_2006be11 taking into account my linux based setup?
3. Will I get any benefit from that in terms of SQ and/or system stability (clicks, pops, etc.)?

I would deeply appreciate any hint and guidance about the subject.

Thank you very much in advance!


----------



## bodiebill2

jmmbarco said:


> Hi guys! This is my first post in the thread.
> I finally pulled the trigger and ordered the DI-20HE from MagnaHifi and I have some doubts about the interface I wish you could help me.
> 
> My setup is the following. My transport is a linux x86 based machine (external usb card from CoreAudio with Andrea Mori clocks) running naa, HQPlayer embedded connected via ethernet. Only PCM is being used because my DAC is TDA1541 based (abbas audio) with spdif input. Anyway it is possible that I get some kind of DSD DAC in near future so I am not limiting the use of DI-20HE to PCM. Currently, I am using a Mutec MC3+USB as interface connected via USB to transport and spdif to abbas dac.
> ...



After some trials I chose for firmware 0.75, but this is my personal taste. 'More silky' (from my notes).

If in future you want to play higher resolution DSD from Linux, Amanero CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDSD and 2006be11 are a good (the best?) combination. Note that the latter requires the swapped CPLD version.


----------



## jmmbarco

bodiebill2 said:


> After some trials I chose for firmware 0.75, but this is my personal taste. 'More silky' (from my notes).
> 
> If in future you want to play higher resolution DSD from Linux, Amanero CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDSD and 2006be11 are a good (the best?) combination. Note that the latter requires the swapped CPLD version.


So, do you recommend upgrading before shipping?


----------



## bodiebill2

jmmbarco said:


> So, do you recommend upgrading before shipping?


Well, you could ask them, but it will not hurt to get the hang of it yourself. It is likely that you want to reflash in future anyway. Magna ships the DI-20HE with the Altera blaster and attaches the wires (at least for the R8HE that I recently got) so that the Amanero reset can be done from the outside.


----------



## sajunky

jmmbarco said:


> So, do you recommend upgrading before shipping?


Keep the stock firmware till you get special requirements for your new DAC, this is my opinion.


----------



## jmmbarco

Got reply from Jos. Unit is already updated (FPGA and Amanero as well), so no need to worry.... let's see how it behaves. Shame that my main rig is not available until a couple of weeks.... So I will use it during the burn-in in my office (Auralic Vega).
Thank you guys, ... )


----------



## bodiebill2

Today I got my DI-20HE back from Magna Hifi. Internally the CLK output was set to 75 Ohm. The connector however was not replaced, so it is essentially still a 50 Ohm connector. According to Jos it should be OK like this. Maybe just in case I will order a impedance-tolerant Gustard C2 cable after all.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Today I got my DI-20HE back from Magna Hifi. Internally the CLK output was set to 75 Ohm. The connector however was not replaced, so it is essentially still a 50 Ohm connector. According to Jos it should be OK like this. Maybe just in case I will order a impedance-tolerant Gustard C2 cable after all.


That's really annoying. They should have changed the connector.

FWIW I ran my Brooklyn DAC+ off the DI-20 clock for months with no problems getting a lock and no audible issues, using a 75 ohm cable with 75 ohm BNCs on each end!


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> That's really annoying. They should have changed the connector.
> 
> FWIW I ran my Brooklyn DAC+ off the DI-20 clock for months with no problems getting a lock and no audible issues, using a 75 ohm cable with 75 ohm BNCs on each end!


Now the good news:
The reason I asked them to convert the CLK output was to use it with a Merging Hapi DAC with 75 Ohm WCLK input. Although it is hard to be sure after a 2 week break, I believe the the Hapi with Ravenna and the new WCLK connection has improved even further. Playing DSD256 now: outstanding. I think I will keep the Hapi D/S as a sanity check next to all the R2R lushness and bliss. Both are great, I think, just different.


----------



## sajunky

Clock In connector had been replaced. Clock out is still 50 Ohms. They did not understand exactly what you wanted.

You can replace connector at any electronics workshop.


----------



## bodiebill2

sajunky said:


> Clock In connector had been replaced. Clock out is still 50 Ohms. They did not understand exactly what you wanted.



The 10 MHz clock input was already 75 Ohm when I bought it -- they did not touch that.

About the CLK out, they say (translated from Dutch): "Internally the circuit has been changed so that the connection is configured as "75 Ohm" impedance" (which they kindly did for free), but that it would be 2 or 3 hours work to also replace the connector.

Trying to tame my OCD, I must say that my ears are happy.



sajunky said:


> You can replace connector at any electronics workshop.


Thanks! Maybe for later, when my OCD pops up again...


----------



## sajunky

bodiebill2 said:


> Thanks! Maybe for later, when my OCD pops up again...


Connector impedance gives a minor wave reflection indeed. It is not perfect, but you can leave with it.

I am now more convinced that your problem is not related to the Audio GD equipment.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

It starts to feel like a firmware issue. I had annoying noise with certain rates of PCM but not over USB or IIS. When I couldn't explain it well enough to Kingwa, Rob @ Magna helped out and we got new firmware in a week that resolved it completely.


----------



## bodiebill2

Aren't we crossing thread boundaries? May be confusing for some. I will report back in the R-7, R-7HE ... etc. thread...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> Aren't we crossing thread boundaries?



Aren't we Audio-gd fans


----------



## sajunky

bodiebill2 said:


> Aren't we crossing thread boundaries? May be confusing for some. I will report back in the R-7, R-7HE ... etc. thread...


You can safetly post here. At least I can post here, but on the R-7 thread I am restricted. You are aware of it as I communicated with you PM.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> You can safetly post here. At least I can post here, but on the R-7 thread I am restricted. You are aware of it as I communicated with you PM.


How can you be restricted on the R7 thread(s)?


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> How can you be restricted on the R7 thread(s)?


My access was restricted on the request of a thread owner when I honestly disagreed that Bifrost 2 sounds better than the old R2R-11.


----------



## bodiebill2

sajunky said:


> You can safetly post here. At least I can post here, but on the R-7 thread I am restricted. You are aware of it as I communicated with you PM.


Ah, I see, no problem.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> My access was restricted on the request of a thread owner when I honestly disagreed that Bifrost 2 sounds better than the old R2R-11.


I'm not sure I understand. Are you not allowed to be an Audio-gd fanboy in Audio-gd threads? Let's all thread-crap the schiitty threads then


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm not sure I understand. Are you not allowed to be an Audio-gd fanboy in Audio-gd threads? Let's all thread-crap the schiitty threads then


Business rules. A voice of guys with medals must be more important than mine.


----------



## lator

Fibre101 said:


> If anyone else had this issue please let me know.


Had this issue. Turned out my USB cable was too far off from 90 ohm spec and replacing it fixed the issue.


----------



## Igor375375

Igor375375 said:


> Hi. I've noticed this shop too, the cheapest offer. I'll take the *LHY OCK-1* here. I'll also be getting a *BNC* cable to go with it https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050026...781027712.1640613639&sku_id=12000021653642404 and *WireWorld Stratus 7 2.0m* power cable. I have the entire *WireWorld Electra 7* power harness, I like them a lot, but I'll get a cheaper one for the clock.


Got the LHY OCK-1 and the BNC Gustard cable. Been listening to the clock and cable since last night ( left the clock on overnight, connected to the square output ). 
My impressions: 
don't really want to switch to the internal clock anymore ( the clocks switch on the fly, by pressing a button, with a delay of several seconds )... Sound is different with external OCXO, better partition of instruments, wider scene, more volume. Especially noticeable on complex compositions. After warm-up the sound will hopefully be even better.
Conclusion:
The DI20HE sounds better with the OCXO outboard than the inboard. I recommend it.


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 22, 2022)

Igor375375 said:


> Got the LHY OCK-1 and the BNC Gustard cable. Been listening to the clock and cable since last night ( left the clock on overnight, connected to the square output ).
> My impressions:
> don't really want to switch to the internal clock anymore ( the clocks switch on the fly, by pressing a button, with a delay of several seconds )... Sound is different with external OCXO, better partition of instruments, wider scene, more volume. Especially noticeable on complex compositions. After warm-up the sound will hopefully be even better.
> Conclusion:
> The DI20HE sounds better with the OCXO outboard than the inboard. I recommend it.


I just got the OCK-1 yesterday as well and for what is is worth I'm using it with the Gustard U18 (I'm seriously considering the DI20HE hence following this thread). Similar impressions here - external clock has far better separation, depth and width of soundstage, greater transient speed and impact, bass definition, weight etc etc. Night and day difference. Easy to flick back and forwards to compare. Pretty impressive bang for buck.

Edit: this is with a standard BNC cable of unknown ohms whilst I await the Gustard C2 cable.


----------



## Igor375375

Jake2 said:


> ..... OCK-1 .... Similar impressions here - external clock has far better separation, depth and width of soundstage, greater transient speed and impact, bass definition, weight etc etc. Night and day difference.


You've done an even better job of describing the effect of plugging in an external OCXO, I agree completely, but I forgot to mention the bass. I thought that in your case there wouldn't be such an increase in sound quality, as the Gustard U18 has the latest generation of Accusilicon AS338 clocks.


----------



## dougms3

Igor375375 said:


> Got the LHY OCK-1 and the BNC Gustard cable. Been listening to the clock and cable since last night ( left the clock on overnight, connected to the square output ).
> My impressions:
> don't really want to switch to the internal clock anymore ( the clocks switch on the fly, by pressing a button, with a delay of several seconds )... Sound is different with external OCXO, better partition of instruments, wider scene, more volume. Especially noticeable on complex compositions. After warm-up the sound will hopefully be even better.
> Conclusion:
> The DI20HE sounds better with the OCXO outboard than the inboard. I recommend it.


Are you guys only connecting the ock-1 to the Di-20he or both the dac and di20?


----------



## sajunky

Igor375375 said:


> I thought that in your case there wouldn't be such an increase in sound quality, as the Gustard U18 has the latest generation of Accusilicon AS338 clocks.


AS338 are already available for few years, there are more expensive, but in real applications SQ do not increase much, probably is not noticeable, as there are no reports it would do.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jake2 said:


> Edit: this is with a standard BNC cable of unknown ohms whilst I await the Gustard C2 cable.



Apparently, for short lengths of clock cable to one device, it does not matter to an audible degree. Upthread here or in the R7 thread I mentioned I ran my DI-20's (non HE) WLCK into my Brooklyn DAC+ since I run that DAC over AES/EBU out of the DI-20. The Brooklyn had no problem locking and it sounded good. I couldn't decide whether I liked the Brooklyn's internal clock or the DI-20's but when Fred pointed out quite correctly that the DI-20 clock out is 50 ohms, I decided not to use it.

(All pro audio since the 80s has standardized on 75 ohm clocks)


----------



## Jake2

dougms3 said:


> Are you guys only connecting the ock-1 to the Di-20he or both the dac and di20?


Just to my DDC (Gust U18, not the di20) as my current DAC doesn't  have clock in. New DAC with 10M clock input en route, will try then.


----------



## dougms3

Jake2 said:


> Just to my DDC (Gust U18, not the di20) as my current DAC doesn't  have clock in. New DAC with 10M clock input en route, will try then.


That's pretty impressive improvement for just the ddc connection.


----------



## Jake2

dougms3 said:


> That's pretty impressive improvement for just the ddc connection.


I may have gotten a little carried away with the 'night and day' ref, but it is for me, not a subtle difference. Setup is far from optimal as U18 DDC is connected to DAC via toslink (yep, it doesn't have an I2S either!) so will use I2S on new DAC on arrival and report back.


----------



## Igor375375 (Sep 22, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Are you guys only connecting the ock-1 to the Di-20he or both the dac and di20?


Only to the DI20HE. My Audio GD R-28 2022 DAC does not have an external clock input.


----------



## dougms3

Jake2 said:


> I may have gotten a little carried away with the 'night and day' ref, but it is for me, not a subtle difference. Setup is far from optimal as U18 DDC is connected to DAC via toslink (yep, it doesn't have an I2S either!) so will use I2S on new DAC on arrival and report back.


Too late, you've already convinced me that i need one.

To not get it would be a disservice to myself and disrespectful to the audio gods.  Blessed be the fruit.


----------



## Igor375375

dougms3 said:


> Too late, you've already convinced me that i need one.
> 
> To not get it would be a disservice to myself and disrespectful to the audio gods.  Blessed be the fruit.


The pairing of the *LHY OCK-1* and the *DI20HE* showed a very high result in terms of sound enhancement. Listening for the third day, just a delight both in the speakers and in the headphones.  *LHY OCK-1* I recommend it with confidence .


----------



## OCC7N

Im in for DDC at the moment, as I also have a jcat usb xe.

Chord TT2 is known for very bad USB implementation to my surprise after alot of google.

There I need spdif connection to my TT2. 

Im wondering why there is no optical on them.


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 24, 2022)

*S/pdif input qn*

One reason I'm considering the DI20 (probably HE), acknowledging but putting to one side for now its high performance with USB inputs, is its ability to accept a s/pdif input. I tried to follow the discussion earlier in the thread about whether or not it reclocks the signal - I think the conclusion was, to quote @sajunky, "...not reclocking but a simple case of a clock synchronisation."

In any case I'm more interested in how it actually sounds with s/pdif. In particular how does the DI-20 fare with an average to poor quality spdif input..  say from a TV or other AV device, then outputting via I2s? This would be my use case for the s/pdif input.

interested in your experiences here, how much does the DI20 clean up/improve the sound vs going direct? Appreciate it'll depend on the DAC too.

Finally has anyone compared this to the Ifi s/pdif Ipurifier2? I'm assuming the DI20 would trump it comfortably but a confirmation would be nice.

I have the Ipurifier s/pdif v1 (20db more jitter/phase noize than the v2 apparently, per IFI ) which is an improvement over going direct but it can't quite manage to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. TV content still comes through a bit thin and edgy through my Focal Sopras that replaced some more forgiving KEF LS50s.


----------



## Mr Brett

Have bought a used DI-20HE.
Listened last night for the first time.
Also with a re-clocked network switch and LPS, and new ethernet cables.
I knew the music very well.
On the surface was the music I knew.
But underneath, there was so much more information.


----------



## Mr Brett

An obvious next step is to add a clock.
Any suggestions for the DI-20HE?

Probably looking at the US$500-$1300 mark.


----------



## OCC7N

I just wish the DI20HE had optical option. Because of that I am looking at(singxer, matrix and denafrips)

Thinking of Matrix so I can save up to the best dac possible(audio-gd)


----------



## Mr Brett

I was surprised there was no optical in.
Had previously been using that for movies into my system.
And I thought the ACSS was BNC, but couldn't get it to work.
Running an old Atlas Compass coax cable to my old Dac, but still an impressive step up for me.
I'd heard from someone whose opinions I respect that the DI-20HE is better than Denafrips, Gustard and Singxer.
It was his (and a couple of others) who set my mind on one.


----------



## OCC7N

Mr Brett said:


> I was surprised there was no optical in.
> Had previously been using that for movies into my system.
> And I thought the ACSS was BNC, but couldn't get it to work.
> Running an old Atlas Compass coax cable to my old Dac, but still an impressive step up for me.
> ...


If I go that route Im selling my TT2

HE9LE. I have
R7HEmk2 want
DI20HE want

is the HDMI option the best method(di20he to r7he)?


----------



## lator

Mr Brett said:


> An obvious next step is to add a clock.
> Any suggestions for the DI-20HE?
> 
> Probably looking at the US$500-$1300 mark.


https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-ock-1


----------



## OCC7N

Musical Phoenix vs Denafrips hermes/gaia

Who is copying who here? Same company?

They look exactly the same


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> Musical Phoenix vs Denafrips hermes/gaia
> 
> Who is copying who here? Same company?
> 
> They look exactly the same


Yeah this was reported at the time. No official answer, all we can guess is extra production capacity on the manufacturing line.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> I just wish the DI20HE had optical option. Because of that I am looking at(singxer, matrix and denafrips)
> 
> Thinking of Matrix so I can save up to the best dac possible(audio-gd)



Pass on the matrix and get a Mutec box.


----------



## OCC7N

gimmeheadroom said:


> Pass on the matrix and get a Mutec box.


That thing looks awesome, also has inputs!

What crystal is it using?


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Sep 25, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> That thing looks awesome, also has inputs!
> 
> What crystal is it using?


Yes, one of the things I like about it is that it has better connectivity than the DI-20 and it reclocks. But, it does not do native DSD.

I don't know about any crystal. There is a PLL there but I'm not sure of the source. It can also run off external 10MHz clocks. The Mutec site has good doc or you could send an email.


----------



## FredA

Jake2 said:


> *S/pdif input qn*
> 
> One reason I'm considering the DI20 (probably HE), acknowledging but putting to one side for now its high performance with USB inputs, is its ability to accept a s/pdif input. I tried to follow the discussion earlier in the thread about whether or not it reclocks the signal - I think the conclusion was, to quote @sajunky, "...not reclocking but a simple case of a clock synchronisation."
> 
> ...


The improvement with my OPPO dvd is major. But i don't use this input because my r7he mkii does a similar job by itself.





Mr Brett said:


> An obvious next step is to add a clock.
> Any suggestions for the DI-20HE?
> 
> Probably looking at the US$500-$1300 mark.


Gustard c18. Check the Afterdark offerings as well.


----------



## Mr Brett

There are a couple of clocks on EBay/AliExpress.
Around $400-$600. The LHY OCK-1 being one.

Then you go somewhere along the chain of AfterDark or get a Gustard C18.
After that it seems to be Cybershaft, Mutec, SOtM.

I'm looking for something to connect to a modded DI-20HE and then to a modded Gustard A22.
It needs to be at least a noticeable step up from the DI-20HE on its own (a big step would be even better).

The Mutec and SOtM are out of reach with funds and added tax/import duty.
Not sure about any of the the AfterDark iterations, but they suit my space limitations, and fit into a planned Plixir Elite dual linear power supply.


----------



## Jake2

Mr Brett said:


> There are a couple of clocks on EBay/AliExpress.
> Around $400-$600. The LHY OCK-1 being one.
> 
> Then you go somewhere along the chain of AfterDark or get a Gustard C18.
> ...


For what it's worth LHY warn against buying from Aliexpress (i got mine from LHY though a little more expensive), as there's no authorized vendors on there, though I've disregarded that advice for one of their other items.


----------



## Igor375375

Jake2 said:


> For what it's worth LHY warn against buying from Aliexpress (i got mine from LHY though a little more expensive), as there's no authorized vendors on there, though I've disregarded that advice for one of their other items.


I don't think LHY is such a powerful and popular brand that it would be cost-effective to counterfeit it on Ali. Admired the work of LHY OCK-1, I also ordered a linear power supply LHY on Ali, the seller wrote that they only have originals, and to forge one, it is necessary at least to make a kind of external housing, which is already expensive and unlikely to pay off.
https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050023...12.1640613639&_gac=1.53079479.1661837132.null


----------



## FredA

Igor375375 said:


> I don't think LHY is such a powerful and popular brand that it would be cost-effective to counterfeit it on Ali. Admired the work of LHY OCK-1, I also ordered a linear power supply LHY on Ali, the seller wrote that they only have originals, and to forge one, it is necessary at least to make a kind of external housing, which is already expensive and unlikely to pay off.
> https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050023...12.1640613639&_gac=1.53079479.1661837132.null


It depends on how good the assembling is done. The parts are likely all the same.


----------



## Jake2

FredA said:


> It depends on how good the assembling is done. The parts are likely all the same.


I can only speculate re the economics of counterfeiting, at what minimum volumes it becomes profitable (expect it depends). Though funnily enough for the above linked power supply I see from a comment on Jay's Audio/LHY product page that their longstanding power supply LPS25VA is one of their most popular units with 600 sold to date. So I would hazard a guess that's sufficient demand/brand reputation to tempt others to seek a slice of the Jays/LHY pie.


----------



## FredA

Jake2 said:


> I can only speculate re the economics of counterfeiting, at what minimum volumes it becomes profitable (expect it depends). Though funnily enough for the above linked power supply I see from a comment on Jay's Audio/LHY product page that their longstanding power supply LPS25VA is one of their most popular units with 600 sold to date. So I would hazard a guess that's sufficient demand/brand reputation to tempt others to seek a slice of the Jays/LHY pie.


Who knows...


----------



## FredA

I emailed Jay/LHY to ask for a phase noise plot. If they are serious with the 118dB@1hz, this clock is a really awesome value.


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 27, 2022)

FredA said:


> I emailed Jay/LHY to ask for a phase noise plot. If they are serious with the 118dB@1hz, this clock is a really awesome value.


110db at 1hz from memory?

Edit 1. I see their website now says 118db, though unless my memory is playing tricks or I wasn't wearing glasses I'm sure it did say 110db. As that was the figure I cross checked to the afterdark clock specs table before pulling the trigger. Quite agree though re value - if either figure is accurate.

Edit 2 - good to see on this occasion my memory wasn't faulty - it was -110db/ 1hz per @DACLadder here.

Aaand.. edit #3 - OK, I'm not super familiar with Afterdark's pricing being pretty new to this clock business, so may be imagining things, but have they just dropped their pricing a fair bit?


----------



## Igor375375

Jake2 said:


> I can only speculate re the economics of counterfeiting, at what minimum volumes it becomes profitable (expect it depends). Though funnily enough for the above linked power supply I see from a comment on Jay's Audio/LHY product page that their longstanding power supply LPS25VA is one of their most popular units with 600 sold to date. So I would hazard a guess that's sufficient demand/brand reputation to tempt others to seek a slice of the Jays/LHY pie.


I read the reviews. There is not much of an alternative for my parameters ( 130W, 230V, 19.5V) anyway. At the moment I use the following. https://aliexpress.ru/item/32878072...2.1640613639&_gac=1.148043432.1661837132.null
The sound is of course better than the stock switching power supply, but when you check the output current with a tester, the voltage jumps by hundredths of a volt (with the switching power supply by tenths of a volt).
I decided to use a LHY unit, designed for Audio PC. I hope it's not fake, the seller swears it's original .


----------



## Jake2

FredA said:


> The c2 clock cable is improving, even though it easily beat my other cables from the start. Things can't get much better from here. It is very hard to perceive it's a digital source playing (di20he along with the r7he mkii,  both clocked by the afterdark eva) . The level of detail is amazing. The definition in the extreme low range has improved too. A layer of air has been added as well.


Just got my Gustard C2 cable this arvo. Replaced the no name 75ohm one I'd been using with the OCK-1. 

Early days (well, hours) but WOW. So far for me the main difference is notes seem more fleshed out, piano notes for example are more fully formed and sweet, not just the transient edges, female vocals more full bodied and textured, just far more natural and a greater ease to the sound. 

After a few cable ABs, no way I'm changing back. Might have to get a second C2.


----------



## Igor375375

Jake2 said:


> Just got my Gustard C2 cable this arvo. Replaced the no name 75ohm one I'd been using with the OCK-1.
> 
> Early days (well, hours) but WOW. So far for me the main difference is notes seem more fleshed out, piano notes for example are more fully formed and sweet, not just the transient edges, female vocals more full bodied and textured, just far more natural and a greater ease to the sound.
> 
> After a few cable ABs, no way I'm changing back. Might have to get a second C2.


Congratulations. It's a good thing I made the right choice for the Gustard C2 straight away.


----------



## FredA

Jake2 said:


> 110db at 1hz from memory?
> 
> Edit 1. I see their website now says 118db, though unless my memory is playing tricks or I wasn't wearing glasses I'm sure it did say 110db. As that was the figure I cross checked to the afterdark clock specs table before pulling the trigger. Quite agree though re value - if either figure is accurate.
> 
> ...


Don't think so, they have issues with their website. The top 3-output is 3800usd. The -110db one is 2300.

As for 110dB for the cheap one, it's the figure you find on Ali. This website states -118dB.

https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-ock-1


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 27, 2022)

FredA said:


> Don't think so, they have issues with their website. The top 3-output is 3800usd. The -110db one is 2300.
> 
> As for 110dB for the cheap one, it's the figure you find on Ali. This website states -118dB.
> 
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-ock-1


Yes, I acknowledge it says -118db on their website now, my point was both I and dacladder previously went to their website (which is where I bought mine from, I never looked at Aliexpress) which used to say -110db.

Anyway, it's a moot point, as I bought it, it sounds great, even better now with the C2 cable. I'll be interested in the phase noise chart if you manage to get it - so good luck with that.

Re Afterdark website pricing being skew-wiff - ah I see, the top three are still showing as <USD1k on the product page, but when you go through to checkout it corrects to USD2k+.


----------



## FredA

Jake2 said:


> Yes, I acknowledge it says -118db on their website now, my point was both I and dacladder previously went to their website (which is where I bought mine from, I never looked at Aliexpress) which used to say -110db.
> 
> Anyway, it's a moot point, as I bought it, it sounds great, even better now with the C2 cable. I'll be interested in the phase noise chart if you manage to get it - so good luck with that.
> 
> Re Afterdark website pricing being skew-wiff - ah I see, the top three are still showing as <USD1k on the product page, but when you go through to checkout it corrects to USD2k+.


Yep, the figure was -110dB and then was updated to -118dB. Afterdark has competition now, including the c18. And of course the LHY OCK-1. 

Indeed, the c2 cable is a keeper!


----------



## OCC7N

FredA said:


> Yep, the figure was -110dB and then was updated to -118dB. Afterdark has competition now, including the c18. And of course the LHY OCK-1.
> 
> Indeed, the c2 cable is a keeper!


Ansuz Mainz C2?


----------



## Jake2

OCC7N said:


> Ansuz Mainz C2?


The Gustard C2 BNC master clock / digital cable.

Though you make me realize I'm just using a generic power cable for my clock. This could get expensive.


----------



## Mr Brett (Sep 28, 2022)

I have a Project Stream Box S2 Ultra as my first streamer.
For price and size, it's very good.
Run a Mad Scientist Black Magic Ultra USB to the DI-20HE.

I also have an Aqvox USB 5v linear power supply (Type A female).
Used it to good effect with my Halide Bridge from MacBook to Dac.
I was wondering if using the Aqvox lps with the USB cable from the Project to the DI-20HE would be of any benefit?


----------



## shogo33

After all this chatter, ordered the LHY clock from Beattechnik.  I didnt want to risk buying a copy, as I was stung before on Aliexpress.  Its on its way, planning to use it with my U18 DDC, to which i will plan to upgrade to a DI-20HE next year.


----------



## vica1

I got a reply from the Beatechnik: "We have verified the specs with LHY Audio, it is -110dBc. However, we were told that it rivals Cybershalf OP13/14 Master Clock."


----------



## Dandoudou

Hello,
I'm new to this forum, and I have a DI-20HE. I read the posts about the LHY clock, and found them interesting.
How do you power this Master clock? What is the voltage that is required for the LPS?


----------



## bodiebill2

Dandoudou said:


> Hello,
> I'm new to this forum, and I have a DI-20HE. I read the posts about the LHY clock, and found them interesting.
> How do you power this Master clock? What is the voltage that is required for the LPS?


Welcome 
I believe the LHY has AC input and an internal DC stage, so no need for an additional LPS.


----------



## FredA

bodiebill2 said:


> Welcome
> I believe the LHY has AC input and an internal DC stage, so no need for an additional LPS.


Indeed.


----------



## roberto2

FredA said:


> Yep, the figure was -110dB and then was updated to -118dB. Afterdark has competition now, including the c18. And of course the LHY OCK-1.
> 
> Indeed, the c2 cable is a keeper!


Now I can read -110db on their website 😳🤔


----------



## FredA

roberto2 said:


> Now I can read -110db on their website 😳🤔


I just told Alvin, the guy who answers the emails, to do so. It's just normal to post the real figure. The clock is still a great value.


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 28, 2022)

vica1 said:


> I got a reply from the Beatechnik: "We have verified the specs with LHY Audio, it is -110dBc. However, we were told that it rivals Cybershalf OP13/14 Master Clock."



As FredA says still great value (and cheers for getting the specs page corrected).

Unsure why they'd refer those particular Cybershaft models with -113 to -115 1hz phase noise rather than the slightly lower models. Suspect the quoted -110db is a minimum (max noise level) to allow for model variation. From Cybershaft's jp website:






For now, unless FredA manages to procure a phase noise plot I'll just assume it's -110db and more to the point continue to enjoy the great improvements it brings to my system.


----------



## FredA

Jake2 said:


> As FredA says still great value (and cheers for getting the specs page corrected).
> 
> Unsure why they'd refer those particular Cybershaft models with -113 to -115 1hz phase noise rather than the slightly lower models. Suspect the quoted -110db is a minimum (max noise level) to allow for model variation. From Cybershaft's jp website:
> 
> ...


I don’t think i’ll get it.


----------



## Dandoudou

Anyone tried the Aune XC1 Master Clock?

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-devices/aune-xc1-master-clock-ocxo-10mhz-black-p-16517.html


----------



## OCC7N

Dandoudou said:


> Anyone tried the Aune XC1 Master Clock?
> 
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-devices/aune-xc1-master-clock-ocxo-10mhz-black-p-16517.html


I was gonna ask the same question, same link, same thread.


----------



## bodiebill2

Dandoudou said:


> Anyone tried the Aune XC1 Master Clock?
> 
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hifi-devices/aune-xc1-master-clock-ocxo-10mhz-black-p-16517.html



Yes I had that one. All I can say is that it is a decent clock and the improvement when used was noticeable. However I sold it when I got an Afterdark Emperor Double Crown, which was a clear step up.


----------



## OCC7N (Sep 29, 2022)

I have decided to go for the matrix spdif2, because Im concidering not selling my TT2, It sound so sweet, I can not give it up.

When I get the R8HE mk2 it will be connected to the I2S and the TT2 optical.

What do you guys think of this.....

What DDC could be a better option that has optical and I2S?....not interested in Singxer....denafrips?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Douk douk douk douk of Earl.  The Matrix is hugely overpriced. Go douk or go home...

Denafrips no, not unless you want noise and ground loops for the rest of your life. No.


----------



## Dandoudou

bodiebill2 said:


> Yes I had that one. All I can say is that it is a decent clock and the improvement when used was noticeable. However I sold it when I got an Afterdark Emperor Double Crown, which was a clear step up.



I'm not surprised that the AfterDark Double Crown is a better product, as it costs 7 or 8 times the price of the Aune XC1. 
It would be interesting to know how the XC1 compares to the LHY OCK-1.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Dandoudou said:


> I'm not surprised that the AfterDark Double Crown is a better product, as it costs 7 or 8 times the price of the Aune XC1.
> It would be interesting to know how the XC1 compares to the LHY OCK-1.


There's a good lesson there. At some point you have to start spending huge money for incremental gains.

The LHY build looks better than Aune. I would pass on the latter.


----------



## OCC7N

gimmeheadroom said:


> Douk douk douk douk of Earl.  The Matrix is hugely overpriced. Go douk or go home...
> 
> Denafrips no, not unless you want noise and ground loops for the rest of your life. No.


I was thinking the exact opposite. It cost way under Singxer SU6, and the difference is "slighty" in most reviews/impressions.

400euro vs 700euro.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> I was thinking the exact opposite. It cost way under Singxer SU6, and the difference is "slighty" in most reviews/impressions.
> 
> 400euro vs 700euro.


I know at least two guys that had noise problems with Iris they could not resolve and eventually sold them.

Everybody says the DI-20HE is clearly better than the top Singxer. So for 64 USD instead of 500 euros, the Douk is the hot ticket.


----------



## OCC7N

gimmeheadroom said:


> I know at least two guys that had noise problems with Iris they could not resolve and eventually sold them.
> 
> Everybody says the DI-20HE is clearly better than the top Singxer. So for 64 USD instead of 500 euros, the Douk is the hot ticket.


I meant the Matrix


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> I meant the Matrix


Hah, ok. Still, get the no-brand model which appears to be identical, for 10% of the price.


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 29, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> I'm not surprised that the AfterDark Double Crown is a better product, as it costs 7 or 8 times the price of the Aune XC1.
> It would be interesting to know how the XC1 compares to the LHY OCK-1.


Any claimed phase noise measurements for the Aune? I did a quick Google but drew a blank.


gimmeheadroom said:


> There's a good lesson there. At some point you have to start spending huge money for incremental gains.
> 
> The LHY build looks better than Aune. I would pass on the latter.


Reading all this listening to the OCK--1 right now, which has really just started to open up btw.. sound stage width now well beyond speakers, sounds pretty awesome... I realise if (ok, when) I eventually want to step up I'm going to have to spend a lot.


gimmeheadroom said:


> I know at least two guys that had noise problems with Iris they could not resolve and eventually sold them.
> 
> Everybody says the DI-20HE is clearly better than the top Singxer. So for 64 USD instead of 500 euros, the Douk is the hot ticket.


The Douk is remarkable, almost unbelievable value. Start with that as a baseline. I need to get it back out of my car where it feeds an Xdsd Gryphon (ridiculous soundstage for a car stereo) and AB it to the SU6 and Gustard et al.


----------



## OCC7N

gimmeheadroom said:


> Hah, ok. Still, get the no-brand model which appears to be identical, for 10% of the price.


Im actually surprised of the price/Douk. Im interested in it now.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> Im actually surprised of the price/Douk. Im interested in it now.


@sajunky recommends it as a solid value. For the price and due to his recommendation it makes sense and is very low risk.

Worst case, you get a dead one. Everybody needs a door-stop in the summer months


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 29, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> Im actually surprised of the price/Douk. Im interested in it now.


I sort of parked it when I got the U18 & OCK but the Douk is the real deal, makes the Gryphon sound twice as good... way more airy, faster, more punchy etc.

It arrived about the same time as the SU6 and it was close enough on initial casual listening it gave me a bit of buyers remorse on the latter.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

They finally have European sources for the LHY. I'll pick one up when I get back, I'm away on business now.

I'm peeved they have only one square wave output. Later I'll write and see if they can build one with 2 75ohm and 1 50ohm outputs, all square wave.


----------



## Dandoudou (Sep 29, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> There's a good lesson there. At some point you have to start spending huge money for incremental gains.
> 
> The LHY build looks better than Aune. I would pass on the latter.


Reading the posts on the thread about the LHY, it seems more safe to buy it from Beatechnik.
I need to choose between 75 Ohm and 50 Ohm outputs.

I have only two devices in my setup with a 10 MHz input: the DI-20HE and EtherRegen. Furthermore, I'm planning to upgrade in the future to a DAC with a 10 MHz input.

Any advises for the output impedance that I should select for the LHY?

EDIT
@gimmeheadroom posted about this issue while I was writing my message.
Who is their European retailer?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Dandoudou said:


> Reading the posts on the thread about the LHY, it seems more safe to buy it from Beatechnik.



I see authorized European distributors on the beatechnik site. I can't buy from Singapore, it would cost me at least 2X.



Dandoudou said:


> I need to choose between 75 Ohm and 50 Ohm outputs.
> I have only two devices in my setup with a 10 MHz input: the DI-20HE and EtherRegen. Furthermore, I'm planning to upgrade in the future to a DAC with a 10 MHz input.
> 
> Any advises for the output impedance that I should choose for the LHY?



if you're going with Audio-gd or consumer gear, 50 ohms all the way.

I have pro gear which is all 75 ohm, plus Audio-gd gear. That makes it a lot harder until I spring for the Mutec clock.


----------



## Jake2

gimmeheadroom said:


> I have pro gear which is all 75 ohm, plus Audio-gd gear. That makes it a lot harder until I spring for the Mutec clock.


I guess there's the Gustard C2 cable to the rescue if you put stock in their impedance matching claims. It certainly sounds good but is a bit spendy.


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> I see authorized European distributors on the beatechnik site. I can't buy from Singapore, it would cost me at least 2X.


Don't listen to anyone, get it from Ali, great LHY clock, works great.
https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050041...2.1640613639&_gac=1.258584597.1661837132.null


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> if you're going with Audio-gd or consumer gear, 50 ohms all the way.
> I have pro gear which is all 75 ohm, plus Audio-gd gear. That makes it a lot harder until I spring for the Mutec clock.


Not that simple. F.i. the R8HE Mk2 will be 75 Ohm when you opt for the EC (external clock) option, which is user selectable via firmware. Also, the DI-20HE can be easily ordered with 75 Ohm.


----------



## bodiebill2

Igor375375 said:


> Don't listen to anyone, get it from Ali, great LHY clock, works great.
> https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050041...2.1640613639&_gac=1.258584597.1661837132.null


Shipping from Russia?
The Aliexpress ones do not seem to offer the 75 Ohm option that Beatechnik offers?


----------



## Igor375375

bodiebill2 said:


> Shipping from Russia?
> The Aliexpress ones do not seem to offer the 75 Ohm option that Beatechnik offers?


From China. Yes, only 50 ohms. But I would check with the seller on the Ali website.


----------



## FredA

OCC7N said:


> I have decided to go for the matrix spdif2, because Im concidering not selling my TT2, It sound so sweet, I can not give it up.
> 
> When I get the R8HE mk2 it will be connected to the I2S and the TT2 optical.
> 
> ...


Optical should work fine if the source is decent. The mkii redoes the timing entirely. Plus you will avoid ground loops.


----------



## FredA

Dandoudou said:


> Reading the posts on the thread about the LHY, it seems more safe to buy it from Beatechnik.
> I need to choose between 75 Ohm and 50 Ohm outputs.
> 
> I have only two devices in my setup with a 10 MHz input: the DI-20HE and EtherRegen. Furthermore, I'm planning to upgrade in the future to a DAC with a 10 MHz input.
> ...


They likely can do a mix of both.


----------



## OCC7N

FredA said:


> Optical should work fine if the source is decent. The mkii redoes the timing entirely. Plus you will avoid ground loops.


If I save 350euro(douk) for almost same performance I am happy. This means I will get R8HE mk2 sooner😊

@gimmeheadroom thanks!🙌


----------



## Dandoudou

FredA said:


> They likely can do a mix of both.


Who can do that? Beatechnik?


----------



## FredA

Dandoudou said:


> Who can do that? Beatechnik?


Yes, i would ask for it. Try also with ali. They sure can do it on Beatechnik.


----------



## Dandoudou

FredA said:


> Yes, i would ask for it. Try also with ali. They sure can do it on Beatechnik.


Thanks. 
I sent a message to Beatechnik, asking if it's possible. 
I will report their answer.


----------



## Dandoudou

FredA said:


> Try also with ali


I'll also try with Ali.


----------



## vica1

Yesterday I ordered a modified (output waveform: Square Wave x 2, Sinewave x 1)OCK-1 from Beatechnik for an additional payment of $80.


----------



## Dandoudou (Sep 29, 2022)

FredA said:


> Try also with ali.


When I connect to Ali from France, I can not find your reseller.
There's another reseller that sells it for €457, while Beatchenik sells it for €449 (shipping fees to France, included).

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005004388285929.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.28ca3018K5l8Z1&algo_pvid=d9de9ecc-48c8-44ce-b0c5-842d50feec82&algo_exp_id=d9de9ecc-48c8-44ce-b0c5-842d50feec82-13&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000029004281361"}&pdp_npi=2@dis!EUR!915.87!457.93!!!!!@0b0a01f816644515444251537e50fc!12000029004281361!sea&curPageLogUid=Y5TY2wsXtlsq

The conversion of the price of your reseller in Rubles makes €431.


----------



## Dandoudou

vica1 said:


> Yesterday I ordered a modified (output waveform: Square Wave x 2, Sinewave x 1)OCK-1 from Beatechnik for an additional payment of $80.


I'm a dummy… Could you explain please what's the advantage of ordering a mix of Square Wave, and Sine Wave.


----------



## vica1

Dandoudou said:


> I'm a dummy… Could you explain please what's the advantage of ordering a mix of Square Wave, and Sine Wave.


Advantage? I don't know, maybe I'll need it someday. I have Audio GD DI-20HE and R-27HE, according to Kingwa, square wave is better. LHY basically offers square 1x and sine 2x, and I asked them to modify it.


----------



## Igor375375 (Sep 29, 2022)

vica1 said:


> Advantage? I don't know, maybe I'll need it someday. I have Audio GD DI-20HE and R-27HE, according to Kingwa, square wave is better. LHY basically offers square 1x and sine 2x, and I asked them to modify it.


Congratulations on your purchase. Will you connect the LHY simultaneously to the Audio GD DI-20HE and the R-27HE ?
The DI-20HE has a 50 ohm input and the R-27HE has a 75 ohm input.


----------



## vica1

Igor375375 said:


> Congratulations on your purchase. Will you connect the LHY simultaneously to the Audio GD DI-20HE and the R-27HE ?
> The DI-20HE has a 50 ohm input and the R-27HE has a 75 ohm input.


Thanks. Yes I will. I have a DI-20HE with 75 ohm input.


----------



## bodiebill2

Dandoudou said:


> When I connect to Ali from France, I can not find your reseller.
> There's another reseller that sells it for €457, while Beatchenik sells it for €449 (shipping fees to France, included).
> 
> https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005004388285929.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.28ca3018K5l8Z1&algo_pvid=d9de9ecc-48c8-44ce-b0c5-842d50feec82&algo_exp_id=d9de9ecc-48c8-44ce-b0c5-842d50feec82-13&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000029004281361"}&pdp_npi=2@dis!EUR!915.87!457.93!!!!!@0b0a01f816644515444251537e50fc!12000029004281361!sea&curPageLogUid=Y5TY2wsXtlsq
> ...


Note that on Aliexpress import duties are already included in the price. If you buy from Beatechnik, you will probably have to pay these separately.


----------



## OCC7N

bodiebill2 said:


> Note that on Aliexpress import duties are already included in the price. If you buy from Beatechnik, you will probably have to pay these separately.


True this is visible on checkout. I have seen it before. But it is on product over 200 hundred dollars or something?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> True this is visible on checkout. I have seen it before. But it is on product over 200 hundred dollars or something?


In Europe (EU), you have to pay only VAT until 135 euros total price of item + insurance (if any) + shipping

More than 135 total you start paying penalties, random fees, ransom etc. depending on your country.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Dandoudou said:


> I'm a dummy… Could you explain please what's the advantage of ordering a mix of Square Wave, and Sine Wave.



So people can argue whether square wave clocks or sinewave clocks sound better 



Igor375375 said:


> Congratulations on your purchase. Will you connect the LHY simultaneously to the Audio GD DI-20HE and the R-27HE ?
> The DI-20HE has a 50 ohm input and the R-27HE has a 75 ohm input.



The R-27HE has a 75 ohm clock input?! I refuse to believe it...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Igor375375 said:


> Don't listen to anyone, get it from Ali, great LHY clock, works great.
> https://aliexpress.ru/item/10050041...2.1640613639&_gac=1.258584597.1661837132.null



I cannot, anything ordered outside the EU will cost me 2X buy the time I have it in my hands...



bodiebill2 said:


> Not that simple. F.i. the R8HE Mk2 will be 75 Ohm when you opt for the EC (external clock) option, which is user selectable via firmware. Also, the DI-20HE can be easily ordered with 75 Ohm.



Horrible, completely avoidable technochaos. I have been saying all clock connections should be 75 ohm, and now this,.  And this does not help when we already have the gear. It's too heavy and risky to ship it back and forth.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jake2 said:


> I guess there's the Gustard C2 cable to the rescue if you put stock in their impedance matching claims. It certainly sounds good but is a bit spendy.


I saw the comments but I can report even using a 50 ohm DI-20 WCLK into a Brooklyn DAC+ using a standard 75 ohm clock cable works and sounds pretty much indistinguishable from the internal clock. So I wouldn't spend money on a cable like that.

Rather, I ask again- no, I demand! - that consumer hifi manufacturers reject the non-standard 50 ohm clock setups and go 75 ohm like the pro audio world has done since the 1980s...


----------



## bodiebill2 (Sep 29, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> True this is visible on checkout. I have seen it before. But it is on product over 200 hundred dollars or something?



The final price (base price + duties) is already visible/listed, provided the buyer is logged in.
Taxation depends on the buyer's country. In The Netherlands all imported goods -- regardless of price -- are taxed at 21% since last June or so. Actually after that the total cost became lower as the customs administration fee (on top of the 21%) was waived, and also faster as customs -- that used to give about 1 week delay -- are now bypassed.


----------



## FredA

Beatechnik has supplied the plot!


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 29, 2022)

FredA said:


> Beatechnik has supplied the plot!


Awesome work Fred... looks like the official spec of -110db @ 1hz  was rather conservative indeed!


----------



## FredA

Jake2 said:


> Awesome work Fred... looks like the official spec of -110db @ 1hz  was rather conservative indeed!


It does not mean all units will be that good but some should.


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 29, 2022)

FredA said:


> It does not mean all units will be that good but some should.


Fer sure. In an area where every extra -1db @ 1hz is hard won and priced accordingly, it's great to think they'll be somewhere in the -110-115db range, perhaps even consistently in the upper end of that range per the anecdotal comments from Beatechnik about Jays saying it's competitve with Cybershaft <-113/114db clocks. 

Given how dramatically my unit improves my sound it's gotta be upper -114s at least.. 😉

Appreciate with Afterdark they're a fair bit more transparent re their testing methodology and equipment and have pedigree here, so with them you get more certain performance (including I see comparatively better 10hz phase noise at an equivalent 1hz phase noise level) but one pays for it.

Competition is good.


----------



## Jake2

gimmeheadroom said:


> I saw the comments but I can report even using a 50 ohm DI-20 WCLK into a Brooklyn DAC+ using a standard 75 ohm clock cable works and sounds pretty much indistinguishable from the internal clock. So I wouldn't spend money on a cable like that.
> 
> Rather, I ask again- no, I demand! - that consumer hifi manufacturers reject the non-standard 50 ohm clock setups and go 75 ohm like the pro audio world has done since the 1980s...


@gimmeheadroom I've found just the clock for you, this Cybershaft has four inputs each individually switchable between 50/75 ohms. 

https://cybershaft.shop/products/op...put-10mhz-master-clock?variant=41464326946991


----------



## DecentLevi

Fibre101 said:


> Hello. I use the original di20 and was wondering if anyone else came across an issue I had. I was burning in a new headphone and my di20 randomly sent out a really loud ongoing beep to my r8, I had to volume down my amp and actually thought my headphones broke cause of how loud it was. Thankfully its fine but it was that loud since I heard it from another room. I then used AES and everything seems fine. I cant tell if its i2s or not since I always used i2s connections with my di20. I currently have the newest firmware for my r8 and 3.993 for the di20. Also, I use the popular Morion ocxo square wave.
> 
> Luckily I didn't have the headphones on when the loud beep started or I may have lost hearing, no joke. If anyone else had this issue please let me know.


You sent me into fits of laughter. Same &##% thing I've had to deal with numerous times with the DI20. Of multiple noise issues this has exhibited; most being luckily fixed with a random change of DAC, this still issue still persists but for me it's with DSD. Usually when I press stop or do any navigation within a DSD track, is when I hear the ultra loud ear numbing squelch noise so loud I can feel it through the headphones. Once I had to go into recovery mode to give my ears a break. This thing is a curse and a blessing.

Presumably your USB or other digital cables came loose or had some microarching because it seems indicative of a lost signal. If not that, who knows if it was caused by the aforementioned codecs or cable length, and hopefully fixed now.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Sep 30, 2022)

Jake2 said:


> @gimmeheadroom I've found just the clock for you, this Cybershaft has four inputs each individually switchable between 50/75 ohms.
> 
> https://cybershaft.shop/products/op...put-10mhz-master-clock?variant=41464326946991



I am not sure how the switching between 50 and 75 Ohm works, as all the connectors are 50 Ohm. Maybe it is similar to the hybrid word clock output on my DI-20HE, that was converted internally to 75 Ohm but still has the 50 Ohm connector.


----------



## OCC7N

I think we need to contact kingwa and ask on this matter. If I knew much about clock I would ask because, I am afraid I might either not question correct or understand his answer correct.


----------



## Jake2 (Sep 30, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> I am not sure how the switching between 50 and 75 Ohm works, as all the connectors are 50 Ohm. Maybe it is similar to the hybrid word clock output on my DI-20HE, that was converted internally to 75 Ohm but still has the 50 Ohm connector.


My suggestion was a bit of a lighthearted one tbh given its extreme cost. But their approach is interesting.

Given the expected very high precision of the unit I'd assume the section of terminating output circuit on the other side of the connector is designed, when switched to 75 ohms, to somehow switch the  characteristic impedance of that circuit and the connector to 75 ohms.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jake2 said:


> @gimmeheadroom I've found just the clock for you, this Cybershaft has four inputs each individually switchable between 50/75 ohms.



Thanks, but no 

As I said, I cannot buy anything from outside the EU. And if I'm gonna spend that kind of money on a clock I'm buying the Mutec which is a known-good, local (to me) company with a responsive owner, good service, and a real warranty. And it has the right combo of outputs.

And what somebody said upthread, the connectors should be correct for the cables. They kind work but are not identical.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

DecentLevi said:


> You sent me into fits of laughter. Same &##% thing I've had to deal with numerous times with the DI20. Of multiple noise issues this has exhibited; most being luckily fixed with a random change of DAC, this still issue still persists but for me it's with DSD. Usually when I press stop or do any navigation within a DSD track, is when I hear the ultra loud ear numbing squelch noise so loud I can feel it through the headphones. Once I had to go into recovery mode to give my ears a break. This thing is a curse and a blessing.
> 
> Presumably your USB or other digital cables came loose or had some microarching because it seems indicative of a lost signal. If not that, who knows if it was caused by the aforementioned codecs or cable length, and hopefully fixed now.



Are you sure it's not your player? This has never happened to me on either of my 2 DI-20s, one base model, one HE.

Are you using the ASIO drivers and does your player support them? I use foobar2000 with the Amanero drivers.


----------



## Mr Brett

Whew. I've done it.
Read the thread.
Only took me five days!


----------



## Mr Brett

Back then to my clock question.
Or more, to my clock solution.

Import duty and tax kicks in over NZ$1000. Hoping to keep under that, otherwise AfterDark, Cybershaft and Mutec become even more expensive.
And not really interested in a clock that costs more than my Dac.
If that's the case I'm probably better off buying a better Dac.

From what some have experienced, the LHY OCK-1 performs well for its price.
And one less linear power supply is helpful in my predicament.

So...
About to order a LHY OCK-1 from Beatechnik.
And probably a Gustard C2 to match.


----------



## Igor375375

Mr Brett said:


> From what some have experienced, the LHY OCK-1 performs well for its price.
> And one less linear power supply is helpful in my predicament.
> 
> So...
> ...


I have nothing to compare it to, but the performance of the LHY OCK-1 and Gustard C2 is excellent, the sound is much better than with the DI20HE internal clock.


----------



## LWPS (Oct 1, 2022)

Hello I am having my DI20 (non-HE) with me for a year. Keep following the post here and pleased to learn from the sharings.

Learnt the positive comment from some of you, I ordered a LHY OCK-1. Waiting for its arrival after the long Chinese holdiay, I'm lucky the unit will be sent from LHY 4 hours driving distance away from my place.

Will share my listening experience when got it connected.


----------



## FredA (Oct 1, 2022)

Mr Brett said:


> Back then to my clock question.
> Or more, to my clock solution.
> 
> Import duty and tax kicks in over NZ$1000. Hoping to keep under that, otherwise AfterDark, Cybershaft and Mutec become even more expensive.
> ...


Seems like very good choices. The c2 is rather expensive but worth it soundwise.


----------



## mikicasellas

gimmeheadroom said:


> Lucky for you if you can import from China without doubling the price! I would like to try this clock but it would cost me at least 2X the price by the time various offices get their hands out of my pockets.


Hi greetings !

How is the LHY Clock so far ?

Best !


----------



## gimmeheadroom

mikicasellas said:


> Hi greetings !
> 
> How is the LHY Clock so far ?
> 
> Best !



Hello 

I'm sorry, I don't have it...at the time of that post there was European distributor. I plan to get one later. 2 or 3 guys here did already.


----------



## Mr Brett (Oct 5, 2022)

I just did it.
Has taken me five days to pull the pin (and sold an amp and a pair of headphones to help pay for it).

So just ordered an LHY OCK-1 from Beatechnik, and a Gustard C2 from Australia.


----------



## OCC7N

Jake2 said:


> For what it's worth LHY warn against buying from Aliexpress (i got mine from LHY though a little more expensive), as there's no authorized vendors on there, though I've disregarded that advice for one of their other items.


I have a hard time finding there powersupply in europe:
https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lps80va

This says 80VA. If I choose 15V it will deliver 5.33A right?


----------



## FredA

OCC7N said:


> I have a hard time finding there powersupply in europe:
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lps80va
> 
> This says 80VA. If I choose 15V it will deliver 5.33A right?


Ask them. They state that 5A for 12V so... You should probably get 4A, at least.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> I have a hard time finding there powersupply in europe:
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lps80va
> 
> This says 80VA. If I choose 15V it will deliver 5.33A right?


They have European distributors now so you could just email them.

Personally I'm very against external power supplies. There's a healthy toroidal transformer in the LHY clock, if I get the LHY I'll use the internal power supply.


----------



## Dandoudou

gimmeheadroom said:


> They have European distributors now so you could just email them.


Who is the European distributor?


----------



## OCC7N

gimmeheadroom said:


> They have European distributors now so you could just email them.
> 
> Personally I'm very against external power supplies. There's a healthy toroidal transformer in the LHY clock, if I get the LHY I'll use the internal power supply.


its actually for my Chord TT2. Just wanna try and see if it can improve


----------



## Jake2 (Oct 5, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> I have a hard time finding there powersupply in europe:
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lps80va
> 
> This says 80VA. If I choose 15V it will deliver 5.33A right?



Click on the specs tab of that page at the bottom. Shows specs for a range of voltages if not 15v. Looks like those 80va options all calculate to around 60va rather than 80va (not sure why), so the 15v would be around 5A.  Edit - meant 4amps!


----------



## OCC7N (Oct 5, 2022)

Jake2 said:


> Click on the specs tab of that page at the bottom. Shows specs for a range of voltages if not 15v. Looks like those 80va options all calculate to around 60va rather than 80va (not sure why), so the 15v would be around 5A.


15x4=60VA =4A?

If this is true its perfect.

EDIT: But this looks really good: 3 outputs: DC DC and USB
https://www.kecesaudio.com/P8.html


----------



## Jake2

OCC7N said:


> 15x4=60VA =4A?
> 
> If this is true its perfect


Yep, typo!


----------



## LWPS (Oct 6, 2022)

LWPS said:


> Hello I am having my DI20 (non-HE) with me for a year. Keep following the post here and pleased to learn from the sharings.
> 
> Learnt the positive comment from some of you, I ordered a LHY OCK-1. Waiting for its arrival after the long Chinese holdiay, I'm lucky the unit will be sent from LHY 4 hours driving distance away from my place.
> 
> Will share my listening experience when got it connected.


Some background info: it’s the first external clock in my system. I heard about how an external clock makes changes to sound quality but most of them cost over USD1,000 like the Cybershaft, Mutec, Grimm. No budget to try these.

The OCK-1 arrived earlier. It has been working together with my DI-20 for around 5 hours – with the power cord came with the package, a Black Cat Digi-75 75ohm BNC cable that is the only digital cable I have on hand. Plan to do some listening to it during the burn-in period then consider to purchase a 50 ohm one.

Impression: The improvement is noticeable, I describe it as a “fog remover”. Without changing the tonal balance and the your system’s presentation on “taste”, it gives:

-    more solid outlines and imaging
-    particular well in lower bass definition
-    clearer layers. Depths both to the back and in front of the speakers.
-    greater transient speed
-    simply more real, not only the instrument itself but kind of telling the actions

After first 3 hours listening, I replaced the fuse (only a pc of 1A fuse at the IEC inlet) and it gave another change. Not to share here because change of fuse is more to personal tastes.

It’s all about a good valued product in the expensive HiFi world.


----------



## lator

OCK-1 arrived yesterday and I concur with the previous poster. For me sinewave sounds better, probably system synergy or due to BNC cable (Cybershaft semi rigid).


----------



## Jake2 (Oct 6, 2022)

lator said:


> OCK-1 arrived yesterday and I concur with the previous poster. For me sinewave sounds better, probably system synergy or due to BNC cable (Cybershaft semi rigid).



That's a classy DAC you have there too, good to hear the OCK-1 can play well at that level. (Edit - I was thinking of the new DAC 200, but hear the DAC 8 is strong too)

If you haven't already try hooking the clock up to both your DDC and DAC, preferably with identical cables. I did this arvo for the first time, albeit non-matching cables, and resolution went up several notches. The Cybershaft cables sound the way to go for well priced performance.


----------



## lator

Unfortunately DAC 8 DSD doesn't have word clock input. However for next DAC upgrade definitely a consideration.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Dandoudou said:


> Who is the European distributor?



https://www.jays-audio.com/distributor



LWPS said:


> Some background info: it’s the first external clock in my system. I heard about how an external clock makes changes to sound quality but most of them cost over USD1,000 like the Cybershaft, Mutec, Grimm. No budget to try these.



The Mutec is about 5000 USD...


----------



## Jake2

J





gimmeheadroom said:


> https://www.jays-audio.com/distributor
> 
> 
> 
> The Mutec is about 5000 USD...



Coincidentally about the same price as this 50ohm BNC clock cable I came across yesterday in my research. Makes the Gustard C2 seem cheap.
https://briseaudio.com/en/products/murakumo-bnc50


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jake2 said:


> J
> 
> Coincidentally about the same price as this 50ohm BNC clock cable I came across yesterday in my research. Makes the Gustard C2 seem cheap.
> https://briseaudio.com/en/products/murakumo-bnc50


That's another reason to prefer 75 ohm clocks. Pro audio cables are cheap and good.

I can't see spending more than 20 bucks on one


----------



## Jake2

gimmeheadroom said:


> That's another reason to prefer 75 ohm clocks. Pro audio cables are cheap and good.
> 
> I can't see spending more than 20 bucks on one


Oh they make a 75ohm version for the same price if that's your preference... 😉


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jake2 said:


> Oh they make a 75ohm version for the same price if that's your preference... 😉


At first I thought it was 715 yen which is about 5 bucks so I said to myself, what's the big deal?

Then I saw the three zeros after the 715 

If you buy a cable for 5 thou you need to spend 50-100 thou on the clock to get your money's worth


----------



## Jake2

gimmeheadroom said:


> At first I thought it was 715 yen which is about 5 bucks so I said to myself, what's the big deal?
> 
> Then I saw the three zeros after the 715
> 
> If you buy a cable for 5 thou you need to spend 50-100 thou on the clock to get your money's worth


Yep, pretty insane money eh.

More usefully here's a reasonably priced impedance matching solution (yes, appreciate it's solving a problem you'd rather didn't exist... but still)  https://cybershaft.shop/collections/all/products/50-ohm-matching-adapter


----------



## lator

gimmeheadroom said:


> If you buy a cable for 5 thou you need to spend 50-100 thou on the clock to get your money's worth


I wish it worked like that but sadly quality cables improve sound quite a bit more than I originally anticipated even with layman gear.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

lator said:


> I wish it worked like that but sadly quality cables improve sound quite a bit more than I originally anticipated even with layman gear.


Then I'm better off than most of you guys. I buy name-brand pro audio cables and I'm FDH


----------



## lator

At least your wallet


----------



## DecentLevi

gimmeheadroom said:


> Are you sure it's not your player? This has never happened to me on either of my 2 DI-20s, one base model, one HE.
> 
> Are you using the ASIO drivers and does your player support them? I use foobar2000 with the Amanero drivers.


I have been using Foobar2000 with Amanero drivers all along for DSD, with the DSD WASAPI event digital output mode. Foobar doesn't (seem to) support ASIO drivers, but my player (AIMP) that does support ASIO has shown the same performance either way. Though the aforementioned super loud beeping issue on DSD stop or navigation isn't as frequent with my current setup, it does seem to be some sort of issue with the DI20 changing from ultra high bandwidth to a stop or down to normal redbook formats.


----------



## Mr Brett

Looking at getting a AES/EBU cable to go from DDC to Dac.
Options?
Seriously looking at an Audience AU24SX. Not cheap, but certainly no need to upgrade.
Perhaps a Triode Wire Labs Spirit 110.

Do have a Blue Jeans I2S cable that I will at least try...

Thoughts?


----------



## OCC7N

DecentLevi said:


> I have been using Foobar2000 with Amanero drivers all along for DSD, with the DSD WASAPI event digital output mode. Foobar doesn't (seem to) support ASIO drivers, but my player (AIMP) that does support ASIO has shown the same performance either way. Though the aforementioned super loud beeping issue on DSD stop or navigation isn't as frequent with my current setup, it does seem to be some sort of issue with the DI20 changing from ultra high bandwidth to a stop or down to normal redbook formats.


https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio

I have actually not tried this yet but I will because foobar can also run VST plugins. I will be testing this with Stereo Tube vst


----------



## gimmeheadroom

DecentLevi said:


> I have been using Foobar2000 with Amanero drivers all along for DSD, with the DSD WASAPI event digital output mode. Foobar doesn't (seem to) support ASIO drivers, but my player (AIMP) that does support ASIO has shown the same performance either way. Though the aforementioned super loud beeping issue on DSD stop or navigation isn't as frequent with my current setup, it does seem to be some sort of issue with the DI20 changing from ultra high bandwidth to a stop or down to normal redbook formats.



foobar2000 definitely has ASIO driver support including for DSD. I have been using it for many years. I think it's recommended in Kingwa's foobar download package from his site but I can't remember.



Mr Brett said:


> Looking at getting a AES/EBU cable to go from DDC to Dac.



I make my own from Sommer cable stock and Hicon connectors. They're one of the easiest cables to make due to the size of cable and connectors.

Member @Silver Wolf makes beautiful headphone cables. I wonder if he intends to go pro


----------



## lator

Mr Brett said:


> Looking at getting a AES/EBU cable to go from DDC to Dac.
> Options?


If you can find good deal on Furutech Digiflux now is a good time to look for ex-demo or second hand market. Or splurge for the new version with NCF plugs, still worth it.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 7, 2022)

Mr Brett said:


> Looking at getting a AES/EBU cable to go from DDC to Dac.
> Options?
> Seriously looking at an Audience AU24SX. Not cheap, but certainly no need to upgrade.
> Perhaps a Triode Wire Labs Spirit 110.
> ...



I happen to be selling a very good AES/EBU cable (as I am now using I2S exclusively): Swiss Cables IC Balanced Reference XLR. It is a NOS version that I could get at an affordable price so I am only asking €275.


----------



## Dandoudou

I ordered the OCK-1 from Beatechnik, paid by PayPal, but was not charged with any duty fees for France. 
I presume that the duty fees will be charged by the transport company that will ship the device…


----------



## Mr Brett

Dandoudou said:


> I ordered the OCK-1 from Beatechnik, paid by PayPal, but was not charged with any duty fees for France.
> I presume that the duty fees will be charged by the transport company that will ship the device…


In New Zealand tax is added on the bigger websites like Amazon, EBay and Aliexpress.
Other websites not so.

If items are over NZ$1000 including shipping, tax/import duty is applied by customs once in the country.
Pay the fee, items get delivered.


----------



## Mr Brett

Have bought an Audience AU24SX AES/EBU cable.
Expensive, but will have no need to upgrade.


----------



## lator

Inspired by OCK-1 finally upgraded DI-20 to DI-20HE. Let it burn.


----------



## lator

Surprises continue. HE sounds better connected to power conditioner. And still prefer sine to square with OCK-1.


----------



## FredA

lator said:


> Surprises continue. HE sounds better connected to power conditioner. And still prefer sine to square with OCK-1.


Depends on the clock cable maybe.


----------



## Dandoudou

I ordered the OCK-1 with mix outputs, 50 and 75 ohms. 

What BNC cables would you advise me? 
Audiophonics, my French favorite reseller, has the Gustard C2 in its catalog in a 50 ohms version. 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/cabl...-digital-coaxial-cable-50-bnc-1m-p-16894.html


----------



## Igor375375

Dandoudou said:


> I ordered the OCK-1 with mix outputs, 50 and 75 ohms.
> 
> What BNC cables would you advise me?
> Audiophonics, my French favorite reseller, has the Gustard C2 in its catalog in a 50 ohms version.
> ...


Great cable, only positive impressions.


----------



## bodiebill2

Dandoudou said:


> I ordered the OCK-1 with mix outputs, 50 and 75 ohms.
> 
> What BNC cables would you advise me?
> Audiophonics, my French favorite reseller, has the Gustard C2 in its catalog in a 50 ohms version.
> ...



I believe the C2 only exists as a 50 Ohm cable, however with Gustard's claim that "the adaptive design concept makes it compatible with 50 Ohm or 75 Ohm characteristic impedance, so there is no need to worry about impedance issues".


----------



## Mr Brett

I've bought a Gustard C2 cable.


----------



## Jake2 (Oct 12, 2022)

*Gustard C2 measurements* - credit to L7 Audiolab for the measurements & Xema at ASR for spotting this. 
https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/measurements-of-gustard-x26-pro/

Measurements are of Gustard x26 Pro dac with C18 clock, blue line is a standard BNC cable (not sure which brand, translated description below*) and red for Gustard C2 cable.

I estimate around 10db less jitter/ phase noise (maybe even more as the offset approaches 1hz) for the C2 which is pretty impressive given how expensive every dB noise/jitter saved is for clocks beyond -100db @ 1-10hz offset.

*A '50 ohm coaxial BNC-JJ male-to-male connecting line RG316 pure copper silver-plated BNC'


----------



## bodiebill2

As I was somewhat puzzeled by what Gustard says about their C2 cable:

_The adaptive design concept makes it compatible with 50 Ohm or 75 Ohm characteristic impedance, so there is no need to worry about impedance issues._

I asked them and here is their reply:

_There may be a translation error, this is a 50 ohm cable and can also be used for 75 ohm machines. If it is connected to a sine wave there is no impedance problem, on the other hand the cable is very short and has very little effect on the impedance._


----------



## GoldenOne

bodiebill2 said:


> As I was somewhat puzzeled by what Gustard says about their C2 cable:
> 
> _The adaptive design concept makes it compatible with 50 Ohm or 75 Ohm characteristic impedance, so there is no need to worry about impedance issues._
> 
> ...


Bit of a concerning response. 

'Adaptive design' is fairly clear in terms of intention. I don't think that can be blamed on a translation error.
At least it's clear now that it is a 50 Ohm cable. So for those using 75 Ohm a different cable would be more suitable.

Additionally, characteristic impedance should not vary based on length. Characteristic impedance and DC impedance are not the same.


----------



## PhMZ4

Jake2 said:


> *Gustard C2 measurements* - credit to L7 Audiolab for the measurements & Xema at ASR for spotting this.
> https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/measurements-of-gustard-x26-pro/
> 
> Measurements are of Gustard x26 Pro dac with C18 clock, blue line is a standard BNC cable (not sure which brand, translated description below*) and red for Gustard C2 cable.
> ...



of course they chose a RG316 cable for a favorable comparison, with a damping factor of 16 for the RG316, whereas a comparison with a RG400 (DF of 9) or even a RG402 (DF of 7.2) would have been a more fair one compared to what one can obtain with a good RG402 costing no more than 20$ in avg., which would have better demonstrated the value/cost of the C2… my few cts


----------



## bodiebill2

It would be nice to have more data points with respect to perceived SQ using external clocks with different cable impedances (50, 75, either matching or not), wave types (sine vs square) etc. Even if the theory is on impedance matching seems clear, there is some controversy regarding sine and square waves, and in the end it is the effect on SQ that counts.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

bodiebill2 said:


> It would be nice to have more data points with respect to perceived SQ using external clocks with different cable impedances (50, 75, either matching or not), wave types (sine vs square) etc. Even if the theory is on impedance matching seems clear, there is some controversy regarding sine and square waves, and in the end it is the effect on SQ that counts.


Kingwa suggests using square wave clocks with this gear so you can't go wrong. But clocks can have subtle effects. You might prefer one or the other.

Data point, I used 75 ohm clock cable out of a DI-20's 50 ohm WCLK into my Brooklyn DAC+ (pro gear, so 75 ohms) and could never decide if I preferred the DI-20s clock or the Brooklyn's internal clock. In the end, after a few months @FredA pointed out the DI-20's clock output is 50 ohms, so I stopped using it to clock my Brooklyn.


----------



## bodiebill2

gimmeheadroom said:


> Kingwa suggests using square wave clocks with this gear so you can't go wrong. But clocks can have subtle effects. You might prefer one or the other.
> 
> Data point, I used 75 ohm clock cable out of a DI-20's 50 ohm WCLK into my Brooklyn DAC+ (pro gear, so 75 ohms) and could never decide if I preferred the DI-20s clock or the Brooklyn's internal clock. In the end, after a few months @FredA pointed out the DI-20's clock output is 50 ohms, so I stopped using it to clock my Brooklyn.



Another data point: my DI-20HE WCLK output was internally 'converted' to 75 Ohm (although the connector remains 50 Ohm, don't ask me to explain) and I prefer using this for my Merging Hapi 75 Ohm WCLK input above the Hapi's own clock. The DI-20HE receives an external 10 MHz clock signal from an Afterdark Trifecta Emperor Double Crown.


----------



## bodiebill2

Actually, I think I will put my new Gustard C2 cable up for sale. Reason: it is 50 Ohm and I have 75 Ohm connections throughout. Offers are welcome. I am in The Netherlands.


----------



## Dandoudou (Oct 12, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> Actually, I think I will put my new Gustard C2 cable up for sale. Reason: it is 50 Ohm and I have 75 Ohm connections throughout. Offers are welcome. I am in The Netherlands.


Did you compare it to your 75 ohms cables with your 75 ohms outputs?


----------



## bodiebill2

Dandoudou said:


> Did you compare it with your 75 ohms cables on your 75 ohms outputs?


Yes, and it actually sounds very good, on par with my Oyaide cables. But it 'feels' better to stick to 75 Ohm in my system.


----------



## Dandoudou (Oct 12, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> on par with my Oyaide cables


Oyaide 75 ohm BNC cables cost 1,5 times the price of the C2…


----------



## Dandoudou (Oct 12, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> Actually, I think I will put my new Gustard C2 cable up for sale.


I could have bought it from you, but I just ordered a new one yesterday… I will receive it by the end of the month…


----------



## LWPS (Oct 12, 2022)

I had my OCK-1 connected to DI-20 with the Black Cat 75ohm cable via sinewave output. Decided to try out a 50ohm cable as Kingwa mentioned to me the cable's impedance affects sound quality. Ordered an non audio brand cable costs USD20 under an experiment purpose.

https://hk.element14.com/mueller-electric/bu-p2249-c-36/cable-assy-bnc-plug-plug-rg58c/dp/3932565

The cable arrived yesterday. To my ear, the impedance matters.I don't know about technical details, only I know the differences of the two cables are conductors, different impedance, and money I paid. With the 50ohm cable plugged in I had no intention to switch back to the Black Cat given the sound just presented a lot fuller and the bandwidth are nearly the same. The 75ohm could be described as weaker, and somehow delivered incompleted messages?! Could not judge the amount of micro details as the cable was brand new.


----------



## Jake2 (Oct 13, 2022)

LWPS said:


> I had my OCK-1 connected to DI-20 with the Black Cat 75ohm cable via sinewave output. Decided to try out a 50ohm cable as Kingwa mentioned to me the cable's impedance affects sound quality. Ordered an non audio brand cable costs USD20 under an experiment purpose.
> 
> https://hk.element14.com/mueller-electric/bu-p2249-c-36/cable-assy-bnc-plug-plug-rg58c/dp/3932565
> 
> The cable arrived yesterday. To my ear, the impedance matters.I don't know about technical details, only I know the differences of the two cables are conductors, different impedance, and money I paid. With the 50ohm cable plugged in I had no intention to switch back to the Black Cat given the sound just presented a lot fuller and the bandwidth are nearly the same. The 75ohm could be described as weaker, and somehow delivered incompleted messages?! Could not judge the amount of micro details as the cable was brand new.


Someone could it explain it much better than I, but the way I understand it is that when you have an impedance mismatch it causes part of the clock signal waveform to be reflected back at the boundary between the cable and the BNC socket, which then bounces back from the other end and arrives back at the DAC clock input as a secondary out of sync waveform slightly muddying the leading edge of the signal waveform (slowing its ‘rise time’), making it harder for the DAC to consistently and precisely detect the leading edge reducing the overall precision of the master clock signal, increasing phase noise / jitter.

I noticed the same clearly audible improvements when I switched from a 75 ohm BNC to a 50 ohm C2 used with an OCK-1 and a 50ohm DAC & DDC.


----------



## Mr Brett

> ...when you have an impedance mismatch it causes part of the clock signal waveform to be reflected back at the boundary between the cable and the BNC socket, which then bounces back from the other end and arrives back at the DAC clock input as a secondary out of sync waveform slightly muddying the leading edge of the signal waveform (slowing its ‘rise time’), making it harder for the DAC to consistently and precisely detect the leading edge reducing the overall precision of the master clock signal, increasing phase noise / jitter.



That is a very good explanation. I even understood it, which is saying something when dealing with descriptions so complex!


----------



## dougms3

A question regarding the LHY OCK-1.

If the outputs are 50ohms, wouldn't that cause an issue if you wanted to also connect something like an r8mk2 since the clock output on that dac is 75ohms?


----------



## Dandoudou (Oct 13, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> A question regarding the LHY OCK-1.
> 
> If the outputs are 50ohms, wouldn't that cause an issue if you wanted to also connect something like an r8mk2 since the clock output on that dac is 75ohms?


In this case, you need to buy a customized clock with a mix of 75 and 50 ohms outputs.
That's what I did by ordering mine from Beatchenik, and they customized it according to my instructions.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 13, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> A question regarding the LHY OCK-1.
> 
> If the outputs are 50ohms, wouldn't that cause an issue if you wanted to also connect something like an r8mk2 since the clock output on that dac is 75ohms?



You mean clock _input_ on the DAC? Indeed I would not advise combining a 50 Ohm clock or cable with a DAC expecting 75 Ohm. However, the LHY OCK-1 can be ordered with 75 Ohm outputs, just ask.

P S I see that Dandoudou also answered. Indeed a hybrid version (50 and 75 mixed) is an option if your system asks for it.


----------



## dougms3

Dandoudou said:


> In this case, you need to buy a customized clock with a mix of 75 and 50 ohms outputs.
> That's what I did by ordering mine from Beatchenik, and they customized it according to my instructions.


Did that cost extra?

Are you able to verify that the terminal is indeed 75ohms and 50ohms?

I generally don't take their word for it.  

Also, I've noticed when I contacted beatechnik, the person who responded is the owner of Denafrips, Alvin Chee.  I guess he's a distributor for LHY?


----------



## bodiebill2

dougms3 said:


> Are you able to verify that the terminal is indeed 75ohms and 50ohms?
> I generally don't take their word for it.


Check this:


----------



## Dandoudou (Oct 13, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> I generally don't take their word for it.
> 
> Also, I've noticed when I contacted beatechnik, the person who responded is the owner of Denafrips, Alvin Chee.  I guess he's a distributor for LHY?


Yes, I exchanged emails with Alvin, who presented himself as the cofounder of the company, and with Annie, the head of the logistics department.
I had the impression that I'm dealing with serious people who know their job. That's why I ordered the clock from them. They fulfilled my order very quickly, and I should receive the clock tomorrow.
Denafrips is a company that makes great products, so it seems to me like a reassuring reference.


----------



## AudioAlex

bodiebill2 said:


> Check this:


As I understand it is both the termination and the resistor behind it that define the impedance.. The most reliable way to verify is to actually measure the impedance of the termination..


----------



## Dandoudou (Oct 14, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> Check this:



I received the OCK-1. Unlike on your picture, its 75 and 50 ohms female outputs are all the same.
What does it mean?


----------



## Dandoudou (Oct 14, 2022)

AudioAlex said:


> As I understand it is both the termination and the resistor behind it that define the impedance.. The most reliable way to verify is to actually measure the impedance of the termination..


I received the OCK-1 today. Unlike on your picture, its female 75 and 50 ohms outputs are all the same.
What does it mean?


----------



## bodiebill2 (Oct 14, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> I received the OCK-1 today. Unlike on your picture, its female 75 and 50 ohms inputs are all the same.
> What does it mean?


You mean outputs? Not sure. Maybe ask Alvin? I am not very technical but I had something similar when Magna Hifi converted the WCKL output on my DI-20HE to 75 Ohm. They said they did it internally, so I guess they changed a resistor. However the visible connector was still the original 50 Ohm one just like your 3 clock outputs. It again confirms that this is underdocumented territory :-|

Maybe someone has instructions how to DIY measure the impedance?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

75 ohm clock cables work ok with 50 ohm connectors. But it seems dumb to do that on purpose. They should have changed to the correct connectors.


----------



## Dandoudou

bodiebill2 said:


> You mean outputs? Not sure. Maybe ask Alvin? I am not very technical but I had something similar when Magna Hifi converted the WCKL output on my DI-20HE to 75 Ohm. They said they did it internally, so I guess they changed a resistor. However the visible connector was still the original 50 Ohm one just like your 3 clock outputs. It again confirms that this is underdocumented territory :-|
> 
> Maybe someone has instructions how to DIY measure the impedance?


I sent a mail to Alvin, asking why the customized 50 ohm output has the same connector as the 75 ohm outputs.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Dandoudou said:


> I sent a mail to Alvin, asking why the customized 50 ohm output has the same connector as the 75 ohm outputs.


Because the connectors were 0,5 euros for 3 pieces on Aliexpress?


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## Getafix (Oct 14, 2022)

It means they are not very precise in what they do. I also believe they are not precise in measuring the phase noise of their products.

And the impedance of a clocking circuit is more complex than putting in a 50 or 75 ohm resistor.


----------



## AudioAlex

bodiebill2 said:


> Maybe someone has instructions how to DIY measure the impedance?


Just google: how to measure resistance using a multimeter.. there is plenty of instructions online..


----------



## AudioAlex

bodiebill2 said:


> They said they did it internally, so I guess they changed a resistor. However the visible connector was still the original 50 Ohm one just like your 3 clock outputs.


I believe it is common practice amongst EC manufacturers.. Mine (Morion) is adjusted the same way: I have 3 identical terminations, but one of them is 75 Ohm (different resistor).


----------



## bodiebill2

AudioAlex said:


> Just google: how to measure resistance using a multimeter.. there is plenty of instructions online..


Thought about that of course but as we are talking about clock connectors and cables, some guidance on what to measure (from where to where, connectors internally, cable, whole chain?) would be welcome.


----------



## Igor375375 (Oct 17, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> 75 ohm clock cables work ok with 50 ohm connectors. But it seems dumb to do that on purpose. They should have changed to the correct connectors.


It turns out it's not that simple. Here's a quote from the R-27HE manual:
" *"2 - BNC", for the BNC coaxial digital input; (If update the EC  firmware, the 2-BNC is for the external clock input .The external clock output impedance must be 75 ohms, the supported output level range is 0.7-3.0V and a 50-ohm BNC cable must be used.)*"
p.s. I wrote to Kingwa, here's his reply: 
" *Dear Sir,
The R27HE default with 75 ohm socket for the clock input .
If your clock is 50 ohm, you can custom order the R27HE with 50 ohm socket .
The DI20HE default with 50 ohm socket so don't need custom order .
Kingwa* "


----------



## Mr Brett

Received the LHY OCK-1 today.
Set everything up. 
I let Qobuz lapse. Just corrected that.

Is playing now. How long of a burn in is suggested?


----------



## Mr Brett

The Gustard C2 will be a while. Sent it to my brother in Australia.
So using a 75ohm Black Cat Silverstar in the interim.

At some stage will A/B with the OCK-1 and the DI-20HE internal clock.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Igor375375 said:


> It turns out it's not that simple. Here's a quote from the R-27HE manual:
> " *"2 - BNC", for the BNC coaxial digital input; (If update the EC  firmware, the 2-BNC is for the external clock input .The external clock output impedance must be 75 ohms, the supported output level range is 0.7-3.0V and a 50-ohm BNC cable must be used.)*"
> p.s. I wrote to Kingwa, here's his reply:
> " *Dear Sir,
> ...


Hard to understand what this means. And anyway, mixing and matching clock connectors is certainly not standard.


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> Hard to understand what this means. And anyway, mixing and matching clock connectors is certainly not standard.


It all makes sense to me. Above in the photo there is an example of how the OCK-1's customer-driven resistance is done. And the BNC Gustard cable is designed to work with two resistances 50 and 75. So I don't see any problem.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Igor375375 said:


> It all makes sense to me. Above in the photo there is an example of how the OCK-1's customer-driven resistance is done. And the BNC Gustard cable is designed to work with two resistances 50 and 75. So I don't see any problem.


The problem is that this was a hack to begin with. The jacks that are used for clock inputs in some cases used to be ACSS inputs and these are optionally changed to clock inputs.

Kingwa uses 50 ohm clocks by default in most cases but apparently 75 ohm in other cases.

This leads to a sloppy, incompatible mess. There is no such thing as a cable designed to work with 50 ohm and 75 ohm. That's marketing nonsense. The reality is that for short lengths of cable, the 50 ohm cables are mostly ok in 75 ohm applications and the 75 ohm cables are mostly ok in 50 ohm applications. But that doesn't mean it should have been done that way. The correct setup consists of the right connectors and cables for the impedance.

There are long standing standards (40+ years) in pro audio and there was no case of mixing and matching cables. What's going on now is dumb and pointless.


----------



## Igor375375 (Oct 18, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> This leads to a sloppy, incompatible mess. There is no such thing as a cable designed to work with 50 ohm and 75 ohm. That's marketing nonsense


Gustard is a respected and established brand. I don't think it would be misleading. I won't argue, Gustard's 50 ohm BNC works and sounds great, I'm very happy with it. When I order my Audio GD DAC with external clock input I will most likely order 50 ohm impedance from Kingwa (alternatively order a new clock with two 50 ohm and 74 ohm outputs, but I prefer the first option, as in that case you can think about the more advanced external clock Gustard C18 with all four 50 ohm outputs).


----------



## gimmeheadroom

I used a 3/4 meter 75 ohm cable out of the DI-20's 50 ohm WCLK into a Brooklyn DAC+ (75 ohms) and I couldn't decide if it was better or worse than the Brooklyn's internal clock. So, I doubt using the wrong cable is audible for short lengths.

I'll eventually get a Mutec REF10 with 9 75 ohm outputs to use with normal/pro gear and one 50 ohm output, just to use with a DI-20HE


----------



## bodiebill2

Igor375375 said:


> Gustard is a respected and established brand. I don't think it would be misleading. I won't argue, Gustard's 50 ohm BNC works and sounds great, I'm very happy with it. When I order my Audio GD DAC with external clock input I will most likely order 50 ohm impedance from Kingwa (alternatively order a new clock with two 50 ohm and 74 ohm outputs, but I prefer the first option, as in that case you can think about the more advanced external clock Gustard C18 with all four 50 ohm outputs).



Whether intended or due to translation, the Gustard claim ('adaptive design') is indeed misleading, judged from their own reply upon asking (see above):
_There may be a translation error, this is a 50 ohm cable and can also be used for 75 ohm machines. If it is connected to a sine wave there is no impedance problem, on the other hand the cable is very short and has very little effect on the impedance._
So there is no special design involved as this applies to all 50 Ohm BNC cables. I sold mine as I try to stick to 75 Ohm overall.


----------



## Dandoudou

I received the C2 cable for the DI-20HE + a 75 ohm cable from Audiophonics for the EtherRegen.
So, I'm starting to use the OCK-1.

Is there a burn-in period for the clock and for the cables?


----------



## Igor375375 (Oct 22, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> I received the C2 cable for the DI-20HE + a 75 ohm cable from Audiophonics for the EtherRegen.
> So, I'm starting to use the OCK-1.
> 
> Is there a burn-in period for the clock and for the cables?


There is, but as this is my first external watch, I can't say for sure, about a week, but my power cable was already warmed up. The effect of the OCK-1 and Gustard C2 is immediately audible.


----------



## Dandoudou (Oct 22, 2022)

My power cable is also burned already.
I agree. The sound of the DI-20HE is already more refined with the OCK-1 + the C2 cable.


----------



## Igor375375

Dandoudou said:


> My power cable is also burned already.
> I agree. The sound of the DI-20HE is already more refined with the OCK-1 + the C2 cable.


You are correct in describing the change in sound, it has become more refined.


----------



## Fibre101

Is there a discernible difference between the morion clock and the ock 1 in terms of sound objectively that is noticeable or is it very close sounding?


----------



## PeterCraig (Oct 23, 2022)

Fibre101 said:


> Is there a discernible difference between the morion clock and the ock 1 in terms of sound objectively that is noticeable or is it very close sounding?



Looking forward to someone comparing the two. The Morion made a big difference in my setup. It is like a window was opened to allow me to see and feel the musical landscape. The old cliche a veil was lifted is the perfect descriptor in this case.


----------



## Igor375375

Fibre101 said:


> Is there a discernible difference between the morion clock and the ock 1 in terms of sound objectively that is noticeable or is it very close sounding?


We are unlikely to see a direct comparison. Since their price tag is about the same, the sound output will be about the same. The Gustard C18 would be in a different league. The only direct difference is that the OCK-1 has an inline power supply, while the Morion has an external one. Power supply is important. Everyone has to decide for himself what is more convenient for him to arrange. I am more comfortable with the built-in OCK-1.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

True, good clocks cost money but I don't think we can conclude clocks which cost the same are equally good or really anything aside from they cost the same.

I agree with you, I like the OCK build more than the Morion, Aune, etc.


----------



## AudioAlex (Oct 24, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I like the OCK build more than the Morion, Aune, etc.


What about the OCXO themselves..? Morion is a well established entity with lots of expertise in the field.. Is there any reference to the OCXO inside the OCK device? It says SUPER SC Cut OCXO  Mod. by LHY Audio.. So the manufacturer of the device has the expertise to modify OCXO as well? I don't know to what extent the OCXO was modified by LHY Audio and who produced it originally, but I remain a bit sceptical..


----------



## ChJL (Oct 24, 2022)

So I'm trying to find out what would be a better upgrade. The Loki Max which I just got in or a DDC.
Since I have the X26 pro I was reading that thread and many over there use the U18 and state an improvement. Ignoring the possibility of updating the clock for now!!

Since I don't use a PC I don't use EQ either hence the Loki Max which I could return still... and go the DDC route.

There is an improvement using this analog EQ! But I'm wondering if the "right chain+HP" would make EQ redundant. Or be 

I was browsing through this thread. What's up with these ongoing updates?  
Would you still get the DI-20 over the other DDC in this price range?
Now, EQ or DDC? Are you using both? Thanks for your input!
What's better? A funny question right? But still...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

In what price range? Mutec is very good, in a country near us


----------



## ChJL

Yeah but I'm trying to find out either/or first...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

ChJL said:


> Yeah but I'm trying to find out either/or first...


@FredA and @DACLadder are the clock kings, I am sure they will chime in.

Personally, I'm holding out for a Mutec since I have good experience with their products and service, and they're next door in case something ever goes wrong.


----------



## ChJL

Which ones do you have experience with? No DI-20 right?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

ChJL said:


> Which ones do you have experience with? No DI-20 right?


I don't have a 10 MHz clock. I use a Mutec's WCLK into my TASCAM gear.


----------



## FredA

ChJL said:


> Which ones do you have experience with? No DI-20 right?


The di20 is a great choice. The u18 would also work very well. I assume you have a headphone setup. If so, equilizing could still be needed. My appoach is to find an hp set that fits in. I am not inclined towards adding devices in the signal path. But it can work. Adding a ddc is like icing on the cake. Can't say how much a diff with de x26-pro, i have no experience with it. An ext clock is also a possibility. Even a cheap one would bring improvements. There is one in the 500$ range that's been recommended in this thread recently. I would probably buy a clock first if i were in your situation.


----------



## lator

I can't listen to headphones without EQ so if you don't want to use DSP then Loki is more important. DI-20 is still best in class for sure, especially if you have power conditioner difference to HE-version is very small. I use JMC DSP with DI20 and recently updated DI20HE.


----------



## ChJL

gimmeheadroom said:


> @FredA and @DACLadder are the clock kings, I am sure they will chime in.
> 
> Personally, I'm holding out for a Mutec since I have good experience with their products and service, and they're next door in case something ever goes wrong.


Just seen a Mutec Ref 10 Master Clock on Audio Markt.
9 months old, 1.100.- off


----------



## ChJL

FredA said:


> The di20 is a great choice. The u18 would also work very well. I assume you have a headphone setup. If so, equilizing could still be needed. My appoach is to find an hp set that fits in. I am not inclined towards adding devices in the signal path. But it can work. Adding a ddc is like icing on the cake. Can't say how much a diff with de x26-pro, i have no experience with it. An ext clock is also a possibility. Even a cheap one would bring improvements. There is one in the 500$ range that's been recommended in this thread recently. I would probably buy a clock first if i were in your situation.


Correct HP setup.
After some playtime with the Loki Max I'm leaning more towards EQ first and later Clock/DDC...
I'm still wondering which DACs don't have folks wanting add ons?
Adding a clock, DDC plus probably not the simplest of cables has one spending quite a bit. There must be DAC designers who have these aspects coverd right?


----------



## lator

ChJL said:


> There must be DAC designers who have these aspects coverd right?


The effects are additive so not really in practical use.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

ChJL said:


> After some playtime with the Loki Max I'm leaning more towards EQ first and later Clock/DDC...
> I'm still wondering which DACs don't have folks wanting add ons?
> Adding a clock, DDC plus probably not the simplest of cables has one spending quite a bit. There must be DAC designers who have these aspects coverd right?



I'm far from British, but as I understand it, I prefer the British system of tone controls and EQ which is to say none. No Loudness control, nothing. I avoid gadgets, the only gadget component I have is an RME DAC which is glorious even without using the onboard EQ. I just don't use it very much though because it has some other annoying aspects. Anyway- I like Audio-gd gear just the way it is and I would like if it were even simpler and didn't have "phono" mode etc.


----------



## jonathan c

gimmeheadroom said:


> I'm far from British, but as I understand it, I prefer the British system of tone controls and EQ which is to say none. No Loudness control, nothing. I avoid gadgets, the only gadget component I have is an RME DAC which is glorious even without using the onboard EQ. I just don't use it very much though because it has some other annoying aspects. Anyway- I like Audio-gd gear just the way it is and I would like if it were even simpler and didn't have "phono" mode etc.


…on/off switch, Humbug !!


----------



## FredA (Nov 5, 2022)

ChJL said:


> Correct HP setup.
> After some playtime with the Loki Max I'm leaning more towards EQ first and later Clock/DDC...
> I'm still wondering which DACs don't have folks wanting add ons?
> Adding a clock, DDC plus probably not the simplest of cables has one spending quite a bit. There must be DAC designers who have these aspects coverd right?


The audio-gd dacs are totally fine without an ext. clock. But once you have tried with one, you do not want to go back.


----------



## Mr Brett

ChJL said:


> So I'm trying to find out what would be a better upgrade. The Loki Max which I just got in or a DDC.
> 
> Would you still get the DI-20 over the other DDC in this price range?
> Now, EQ or DDC? Thanks for your input!
> What's better? A funny question right? But still...



I was lucky to find a Used DI-20HE at a very good price.
Was looking at a range of DDC, from Singxer, Topping, Denafrips, Gustard, Mutec and Audio GD.

A reputable expert I trust steered me away from Singxer, Topping, Denafrips. Said there were better for the price.
Some friends compared a modified Gustard U18 with the Audio GD DI-20HE.
The Gustard neared the Audio GD only with an attached AfterDark clock.

Upon their listening impressions and advice, I bought the DI-20HE. No Regrets!


----------



## Jake2 (Oct 28, 2022)

Mr Brett said:


> I was lucky to find a Used DI-20HE at a very good price.
> Was looking at a range of DDC, from Singxer, Topping, Denafrips, Gustard, Mutec and Audio GD.
> 
> A reputable expert I trust steered me away from Singxer, Topping, Denafrips. Said there were better for the price.
> ...



So I've consistently heard others on this thread say DI20HE > Gustard U18 (which I have), but also, IIRC, that the Gustard U18 > DI20 (non-HE).

Makes me wonder how a U18 (or DI20 non-HE) + a quality power regenerator like the PS Audio PowerPlant 3 would fare vs the DI20HE.

Yes, the combo is significantly more expensive than the DI20HE, but then one could also use the power regen with one's DAC and clock and pre-amp, effectively turning them all into 'HE'-adjacent versions in Audio-gd lingo...

Anyone done this with the U18 and/or DI20 (non-HE)? And better yet, compared it to the DI20HE? I am tempted by the DI20HE, but the I2S DSD flag compatibility limitation gives me pause. Hence doing the mental gymnastics on the separate power regen option.

(Edit - I should perhaps be asking this over on the U18 thread...)

Incidentally, from my crash course in the last month or so in 3 x DDCs, 2 x modern DACs (an SMSL AK4499 and this week the R26) and clocks (well, ok, singular, the OCK-1), my conclusion is it is always somewhere between quite noticeable and dramatic how much a quality 10mhz external clock improves _everything_, and the more devices in your chain that you can connect the clock to, the better. I now find myself looking at previously appealing products with new eyes, noting with disappointment only a minority accept an external clock.

@ChJL I would advise getting the best DAC you can afford that has an external clock input* AND get/try one of the decent ~USD500 clocks referred in this thread. I know I'm far from the first to express this sentiment, but I heartily endorse it. *With limited exceptions of higher end DACs like the T+A DAC200 that are accepted to have have pretty much pulled out all the stops on the internal clocks.


----------



## lator

Jake2 said:


> Makes me wonder how a U18 (or DI20 non-HE) + a quality power regenerator like the PS Audio PowerPlant 3 would fare vs the DI20HE.


I recently upgraded from DI20 to HE and surprisingly HE sounds considerably better with Burmester 038 power conditioner just like DI20 did. Straight from wall or conditioning turned off sound degrades.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Oct 28, 2022)

Jake2 said:


> So I've consistently heard others on this thread say DI20HE > Gustard U18 (which I have), but also, IIRC, that the Gustard U18 > DI20 (non-HE).
> 
> Makes me wonder how a U18 (or DI20 non-HE) + a quality power regenerator like the PS Audio PowerPlant 3 would fare vs the DI20HE.
> 
> ...



I have both DI-20 base and HE versions. I swapped the base version into my headstation from my big rig. I didn't do a side by side comparison and I'm not sure I noticed a big difference. I think the HE is worth the money anyway for the better power supply.

Agreed with everybody about the benefits of good clocks. When I run my DI-20/HE into a Mutec MC3+ USB on the way to my R8 MK2 it adds a bit of air and sparkle.


----------



## Fibre101

Jake2 said:


> So I've consistently heard others on this thread say DI20HE > Gustard U18 (which I have), but also, IIRC, that the Gustard U18 > DI20 (non-HE).
> 
> Makes me wonder how a U18 (or DI20 non-HE) + a quality power regenerator like the PS Audio PowerPlant 3 would fare vs the DI20HE.
> 
> ...


I have non-he audio gd products like the r8, regular di20, etc and I use the ps audio regen with great results. Keep in mind that the regen in the audio gd are pure class A while my ps audio regen is class ab. Still I'm able to hear the difference between a regular conditioner vs my ps regen. I don't have any "he" products from adg to compare though unfortunately. I just got a used ps regen to save myself from spending more on all the he products from agd.

I've asked kingwa about this and his response was;

"It is not only the external power work under class AB result , but the design is most important .It just like a lot power amps work under class AB but the sound may different large as USA to China.If the external power is high end level, I guess the DI20 sound quality is very close Di20HE .
Kingwa"


----------



## lator

Fibre101 said:


> If the external power is high end level, I guess the DI20 sound quality is very close Di20HE .
> Kingwa"


It is very close, closer than I thought. Still can't say I am disappointed with the upgrade.


----------



## Fibre101

FredA said:


> The latest usb input on Audio-gd's latest dacs is excellent. The di20he only brings a small improvement. But it has other advantages. FWs do not all sound the same, nor does the parallel mode vs serial. Same with i2s cables or any digital cable. So you can fine-tune the sound to your likings.
> 
> The older usb input can't compare.
> 
> It is all about noise as audio-gd's dacs are not using the clock of the incoming signal.


is this why my 2021 r8 sound difference between i2s and aes are not really noticeable? aes feels a bit warmer while i2s feels analytical .


----------



## FredA

Fibre101 said:


> is this why my 2021 r8 sound difference between i2s and aes are not really noticeable? aes feels a bit warmer while i2s feels analytical .


Yes. The differences are subtle.


----------



## dougms3

Is there a significant difference between the coaxial vs i2s or aes from the di20 to dac?


----------



## FredA

dougms3 said:


> Is there a significant difference between the coaxial vs i2s or aes from the di20 to dac?


Depends on the dac more than on the di20. The rca out i think has the lowest jitter on the di20 according to a review including measurements. It was the unit with the lowest jitter ever measured by this reviewer. I2s was not measured.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Oct 30, 2022)

dougms3 said:


> Is there a significant difference between the coaxial vs i2s or aes from the di20 to dac?



You could look at it in terms of bandwidth. IIS has by far the most, AES/EBU has better physical and electrical transmission characteristics than coax although recent-ish S/PDIF coax standard goes to 24/192, same as AES/EBU. So one way to look at it is if you play Redbook, it's well within spec for any transport. If you play highres 24/192 you're at the top of the specified range for AES/EBU and coax. If you play high rate PCM, DXD, or high bitrate DSD then as a practical matter you need IIS. We didn't mention ACSS, which is rated to 32/352(?) and is really much better than S/PDIF coax. But most non Audio-gd gear does not have a provision for that kind of bandwidth on S/PDIF coax receivers, so you still can't play anything above 24/192 reliably.

To me, S/PDIF (coax or optical) is the least desirable. AES/EBU has locking connectors and I make my own cables; it's a pro standard. S/PDIF is a consumer standard, cables don't lock. I never use S/PDIF if I have any other option. ACSS coax is very good. The BNC connectors were the right choice. Now, this is coax as it always should have been.

In my setup, maybe AES/EBU out of the DI-20HE into a Mutec MC-3+ USB and from there into the DAC (R8 MK2) has a slight edge in clarity and space over IIS direct. But it varies by recording so I am not certain I could say absolutely one or the other.

As always, try 'em all and use the one(s) you prefer.


----------



## Igor375375

FredA said:


> The latest usb input on Audio-gd's latest dacs is excellent. The di20he only brings a small improvement.


I'm with you all the way. I have an Audio GD R-28 2022. The introduction of the DI20HE only polished the sound a bit, from an audiophile point of view, but it didn't make a dramatic change. The USB Audio GD R-28 2022 ( Win11, ASIO ) performance is excellent in itself.
*Audio PC* => *USB GothicAudio *=> *DI20HE* => *I2S AudioQuest Carbon 48 Braid* => *Audio GD R-28 2022* ...
Power cables *WireWorld Electra 7*.


----------



## Igor375375

Good afternoon. I have (according to Kingwa, I sent him the serial number) a firmware version 4.75 installed on my DI20HE. Has anyone compared it to the latest version 4.76?


----------



## FredA

Igor375375 said:


> Good afternoon. I have (according to Kingwa, I sent him the serial number) a firmware version 4.75 installed on my DI20HE. Has anyone compared it to the latest version 4.76?


4.076 is smoother. Other than that, not sure.


----------



## Igor375375

FredA said:


> 4.076 is smoother. Other than that, not sure.


Thank you. I'll try 4.76.


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## Igor375375 (Nov 8, 2022)

FredA said:


> 4.076 is smoother. Other than that, not sure.


Reflashed it to 4.076.
The sound is indeed a bit more interesting, perhaps you're right - smoother. I'll stay with 4.076. Thank you.


----------



## roberto2

There is a new LHY-OCK-2 on the market!
https://www.beatechnik.com/lhy-audio-ock-2


----------



## roberto2




----------



## Jake2 (Nov 15, 2022)

roberto2 said:


>



Cheers Roberto for the heads' up and links - looks pretty sweet, not least the <-115db phase noise @ 1hz offset spec and the greater number of outputs. *Edit *- and I see from the vid its outputs have individually switchable output impedance - excellent for folk like @gimmeheadroom !

It looks like they've used the same milled aluminium chassis as used for their newer network switch. Smart.

As a very happy and content (for now) owner of the OCK-1 for a month or so it's great to see this, though in my country with import duties etc it'd attract it'll work out as twice the cost of the OCK-1 which'll help me resist the temptation to upgrade for the time being. I look forward to new owners' impressions, especially those of OCK-1 owners who can't resist upgrading...


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jake2 said:


> Cheers Roberto for the heads' up and links - looks pretty sweet, not least the <-115db phase noise @ 1hz offset spec and the greater number of outputs. *Edit *- and I see from the vid its outputs have individually switchable output impedance - excellent for folk like @gimmeheadroom !
> 
> It looks like they've used the same milled aluminium chassis as used for their newer network switch. Smart.
> 
> As a very happy and content (for now) owner of the OCK-1 for a month or so it's great to see this, though in my country with import duties etc it'd attract it'll work out as twice the cost of the OCK-1 which'll help me resist the temptation to upgrade for the time being. I look forward to new owners' impressions, especially those of OCK-1 owners who can't resist upgrading...



Unfortunately it is only half the solution, since the connectors should be 75 ohm for 75 clock cables and 50 ohms for 50 ohm clock cables...


----------



## Igor375375

gimmeheadroom said:


> Unfortunately it is only half the solution, since the connectors should be 75 ohm for 75 clock cables and 50 ohms for 50 ohm clock cables...


I've spoken to Kingwa- no they don't. And there is a universal 50/75 GUSTARD C2 Clock BNC cable.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

dougms3 said:


> So if the clock out put were converted to 75ohms on the di20, it can be used to connect a dac to sync the clocks to the di20?



In general, no. Most DACs that have clock input need a 50 ohm 10 MHz clock. Digital recorders use 75 ohm WCLK.



Igor375375 said:


> I've spoken to Kingwa- no they don't. And there is a universal 50/75 GUSTARD C2 Clock BNC cable.



I don't know what this means.

In practice anyway, for short lengths of clock cable, I cannot hear any difference.


----------



## JaMo (Nov 16, 2022)

Hi all,

I think I should fill in some here. I have been using master clocks for a while now and I have a preference for the square wave time pulse.. But it has its downside with a less tolerant behavior with connectors and cables (BNC) than the sine wave pulse. With that said, You can very well get a good function with a "miss-match"-cable-connector setup on meduim level clocks but if You are using an exclusive/very expensive external master clock (like Cybershaft OP20/21, Mutec Ref10 (SE120), AfterDark Giesemann EVA..), I strongly recommend You to be more careful to match impedance thoroughly. Especially when using square wave pulse (Mutec). A missmatch on that level can ruin the excellence of, the refinements and the efforts put in to the highest level of master clocks. => Meaning.. You could do just fine with a much less expensive clock. To get the most out of the set up, You have to strive for perfection. (Impedance in this case)

With the Ock-1 for the moment feeding Gustard gears (U18/R26), the result is really, really good and this on -110 dBc/1Hz (!).. The price/performance value is crazy good. If the Ock-2 is doing the job as good as the Ock-1, and this with a -5 dBc/1 Hz lower value, it will propably be a tough competitor with this price of US749 to all the other 10MHz Master clock providers on the market.

The Ock-2 is said to be equipped with better voltage regulators (LT3042) than those in the Ock-1 design. This is relevant and I agree, it will be very interesting to read users reports on the Ock-2.

A truth: -There is no combined matching BNC cable and/or connectors. In the case of Gustard, the K2 clock syntheseizer seem to compensate for a less good match. I don't have proof for this but my tests shows a good result even if I provoke with awful bad matching.

If I get my hands on an OCK-2, I will test it and compare to Ock-1 and to my Mutec Ref10 SE120.  (By the way..DI20HE/R7HE Mk2 are on pause right now, I will soon fire them up and test also with them)

Have a nice evening.
/Jan


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Nov 17, 2022)

JaMo said:


> A truth: -There is no combined matching BNC cable and/or connectors. In the case of Gustard, the K2 clock syntheseizer seem to compensate for a less good match. I don't have proof for this but my tests shows a good result even if I provoke with awful bad matching.



Great post @JaMo  as usual 

I had used the 50 ohm WCLK output of my DI-20 base model into my Brooklyn DAC+ using a 75 ohm clock cable before @FredA reminded me the DI-20's clock output is 50 ohms. I had the same results as you, I was unable to decide whether the Brooklyn's internal clock or the DI-20 WCLK was better. But the effect of mismatched impedance is supposed to get worse as the cable runs get longer. I haven't tested that but I found for short lengths of cable I don't hear bad results.


----------



## FredA

JaMo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think I should fill some here. I have been using master clocks for a while now and I a preference for the square wave time pulse.. But it has its downside with a less tolerant behavior with connectors and cables (BNC) than the sine wave pulse. With that said, You can very well get a good function with a "miss-match"-cable-connector setup on meduim level clocks but if You are using an exclusive/very expensive external master clock (like Cybershaft OP20/21, Mutec Ref10 (SE120), AfterDark Giesemann EVA..), I strongly recommend You to be more careful to match impedance thoroughly. Especially when using quare wave pulse (Mutec). A missmatch on that level can ruin the excellence of, the refinements and the efforts put in to the highest level of master clocks. => Meaning.. You could do just fine with a much less expensive clock. To get the most of the set up, You have to strive for perfection. (Impedance in this case)
> 
> ...


Great post, Jan!

Cybershaft offers output impedance configuration on what seems to be 50-ohm connector.  So LHY is not out line here. 

Good insight on the regulators.


----------



## Jake2 (Nov 17, 2022)

JaMo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think I should fill in some here. I have been using master clocks for a while now and I have a preference for the square wave time pulse.. But it has its downside with a less tolerant behavior with connectors and cables (BNC) than the sine wave pulse. With that said, You can very well get a good function with a "miss-match"-cable-connector setup on meduim level clocks but if You are using an exclusive/very expensive external master clock (like Cybershaft OP20/21, Mutec Ref10 (SE120), AfterDark Giesemann EVA..), I strongly recommend You to be more careful to match impedance thoroughly. Especially when using square wave pulse (Mutec). A missmatch on that level can ruin the excellence of, the refinements and the efforts put in to the highest level of master clocks. => Meaning.. You could do just fine with a much less expensive clock. To get the most out of the set up, You have to strive for perfection. (Impedance in this case)
> 
> ...


Nice post JaMo - I'll defer to your greater experience with external clocks, especially high end ones like the Ref10 - really good to get your perspective here, including your view that the OCK+1 + Gustard DACs punch well above their weight.

Apologies if you're already aware of this, but hey it's a long thread, one reason the performance of this nominally -110db/1hz clock may exceed expectations is that based on an OCK-1 phase noise plot obtained by @FredA from LHY (-115.5db/1hz) and anecdotes from Beatechnik (re explanatory info they'd been given from LHY around comparability to -113-114db Cybershaft models) it looks like the 110 for the OCK-1 may be conservative. Of course in the absence of individual measurement certs which would probably push the price up, we just know it's somewhere <-110db.

I have the R26 & OCK-1 (my first clock) and am really impressed with the performance - I mean many folk are super impressed by the R26 alone or with 'just' a DDC, let alone with an eternal clock. My OCK-1 instance (in case there is model variation) has clearly audibly lifted the performance of each DAC and DDC I've connected it to, and is good enough that it is very sensitive to different BNC cables (the Gustard C2, a $20 generic 50ohm pro audio cable & ~$100 75 ohm 'hifi' coax cable) - the differences are immediately obvious. The least good sounding one by some margin was the 75ohm one, the cheapy 50ohm a little better, with the C2 in a different ballpark.

So my second Gustard C2 cable arrived yesterday. The uplift of connecting the OCK-1 to both the R26 & my DDC (the U18, not the DI20 sorry) using C2 cables versus my baseline of the last few weeks of using just the one C2 connected to the R26 and the 50 ohm pro audio cable for my U18 was greater than I'd hoped. A significantly more three dimensional and organic presentation (I really must consult my thesaurus). Etched edges I wasn't even aware of disappeared, bass notes became more multi-layered and tuneful. And so on. So notwithstanding the K2 compensation you describe, my OCK-1 instance is good enough to benefit from a cable with lower jitter/impedance mismatch reflections (I believe the technical term is lower 'return loss', higher being better).

I look forward to your future comparisons.


----------



## JaMo (Nov 18, 2022)

Jake2 said:


> Nice post JaMo - I'll defer to your greater experience with external clocks, especially high end ones like the Ref10 - really good to get your perspective here, including your view that the OCK+1 + Gustard DACs punch well above their weight.
> 
> Apologies if you're already aware of this, but hey it's a long thread, one reason the performance of this nominally -110db/1hz clock may exceed expectations is that based on an OCK-1 phase noise plot obtained by @FredA from LHY (-115.5db/1hz) and anecdotes from Beatechnik (re explanatory info they'd been given from LHY around comparability to -113-114db Cybershaft models) it looks like the 110 for the OCK-1 may be conservative. Of course in the absence of individual measurement certs which would probably push the price up, we just know it's somewhere <-110db.
> 
> ...


Hi @Jake2
Thanks for the kind words (from You all). I think Your post here also points out how "annoyingly good" these LHY Ock-1 clocks seems to be. The sense and the better performance shown with good matched connectors and cables just shows this phenomenia. This is more or less a definition on a really good external oscillator. Bad clocks don't reacts much on this. But.. I have a hard time to accept that OCXO's with phase noise of below -115dBc/1Hz will be sold for around USD350-449 in the Ock-1. This should propably more or less "kill the market" if it was done. For me as a representative for the consumers I would like it alot but it isn't realistic... at least for the longer terms.
I am not 100% sure that the plot @FredA got (a very nice plot of a -115.5 dBc OCXO) was from a Ock-1... If it was, it is a clear "home run" and a "collectors item", I think.
Even so. I Believe You. A master clock of high quality will respond well on/to good cables/connectors matching. Here comes the annoyance again. A USD350-449 from LHY does this.... (There is no justice in the world.. -right?!) Joke aside. The LHY Ock-1 is a GEM. A few will propably get a -115 dBc/1Hz OCXO or better inside and I Salute You all as Winners. This opportunity will propably not ever come back so, Enjoy.

I think LHY has realized this and the new Ock-2 will most likely hold the higher spec's OCXO's but in/on the same level (<-115dBc/1Hz) and better PSU to get lower noise values.


By the way.. I may get my hands on a LHY Ock-2 clock. If it will be true, I will post about it here for sure. So stay tuned if You are interested in how it performs with the Di20/HE and R7HE Mk2.

Have a nice evening
/Jan


----------



## gimmeheadroom

JaMo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> an exclusive/very expensive external master clock (like Cybershaft OP20/21, Mutec Ref10 (SE120), AfterDark Giesemann EVA..), I strongly recommend You to be more careful to match impedance



@JaMo did you compare the REF10 to the SE120 version?


----------



## Jake2 (Nov 17, 2022)

JaMo said:


> Hi @Jake2
> Thanks for the kind words (from You all). I think Your post here also points out how "annoyingly good" these LHY Ock-1 clocks seems to be. The sense and the better performance shown with good matched connectors and cables just shows this phenomenia. This is more or less a definition on a really good external oscillator. Bad clocks don't reacts much on this. But.. I have a hard time to accept that OCXO's with phase noise of below -115dBc/1Hz XO will be sold for around USD350-449 in the Ock-1. This should propably more or less "kill the market" if it was done. For me as a representative for the consumers I would like it alot but it isn't realistic... at least for the longer terms.
> I am not 100% sure that the plot @FredA got (a very nice plot of a -115.5 dBc OCXO) was from a Ock-1... If it was, it is a clear "home run" and a "collectors item", I think.
> Even so. I Believe You. A master clock of high quality will respond well on/to good cables/connectors matching. Here comes the annoyance again. A USD350-449 from LHY does this.... (There is no justice in the world.. -right?!) Joke aside. The LHY Ock-1 is a GEM. A few will propably get a -115 dBc/1Hz OCXO or better inside and I Salute You all as Winners. This opportunity will propably not ever come back so, Enjoy.
> ...


Lol Jan, I like your indignant take on this! Yes it had crossed my mind that back when FredA got that plot 6 weeks ago LHY must've been well advanced in their OCK-2 design and production so would've had a few OCK-2 OCXO plots to hand. Still, Jays/LHY and the vendor, Beatechnik/Vinshine both have solid reputations, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they selected one of the better (if not the best) OCK-1 plots, which is still far from representative of course!

Quite agree though that if I was in their shoes, any OCXOs north of -115db/1hz will now be put aside into the OCK-2 inventory. Still, statistically there'll still be a few 113-114db OCK-1s around going forwards, given they can't legitimately use those OCXOs in the OCK-2, which remains amazing value. But again, if I was in their shoes I'd want to underplay this and stick to the -110db spec for the OCK-1 as otherwise there'd be less motivation for folk to make the jump to the OCK-2.

As my one was despatched early Sep, 2 months before the release of the OCK-2, I'm going to optimistically assume they'd not yet weeded out all the <-115db OCXOs... so there's a chance I hit the jackpot but will never know for sure. 

So encouraged by my success with the OCK-1 I've got one of LHY's new SW-8 switches arriving next week. I see they're already getting some good early reviews over in the What's Best forum* (quoted here on Beatechnik's blog) so it's looking promising. Will report back.

Jake

*Edit - I see the second complimentary post now there is by a dude with 100k speakers. LHY might've done it again...


----------



## dougms3

JaMo said:


> Hi @Jake2
> Thanks for the kind words (from You all). I think Your post here also points out how "annoyingly good" these LHY Ock-1 clocks seems to be. The sense and the better performance shown with good matched connectors and cables just shows this phenomenia. This is more or less a definition on a really good external oscillator. Bad clocks don't reacts much on this. But.. I have a hard time to accept that OCXO's with phase noise of below -115dBc/1Hz XO will be sold for around USD350-449 in the Ock-1. This should propably more or less "kill the market" if it was done. For me as a representative for the consumers I would like it alot but it isn't realistic... at least for the longer terms.
> I am not 100% sure that the plot @FredA got (a very nice plot of a -115.5 dBc OCXO) was from a Ock-1... If it was, it is a clear "home run" and a "collectors item", I think.
> Even so. I Believe You. A master clock of high quality will respond well on/to good cables/connectors matching. Here comes the annoyance again. A USD350-449 from LHY does this.... (There is no justice in the world.. -right?!) Joke aside. The LHY Ock-1 is a GEM. A few will propably get a -115 dBc/1Hz OCXO or better inside and I Salute You all as Winners. This opportunity will propably not ever come back so, Enjoy.
> ...


Very interested in your impressions of the OCK2 if you do get it.

That looks very appealing with the ability to switch the impedance with dip switches.


----------



## JaMo

gimmeheadroom said:


> @JaMo did you compare the REF10 to the SE120 version?


Hi. No, I have not. After an internal struggle I decided to go with the highest specified version. So I have only owned and used the SE120 version ( I will never sell it). But I am sure that the REF10 also is very good. The Mutec design has a very refined PSU for the OCXO. This is equal important as the XO itself. This to be able to keep noise levels down. Mutec PSU is very silent, far lower and beyond what we can hear. Our friend @DACLadder own the Mutec REF10 and I know he is pleased with it. He may comment on it. We'll see. @DACLadder also provided Kingwa @ Audio-gd a Mutec REF10 unit to and this will benefit us all when Kingwa continue to further evolve his designs and firmwares. This is really good. Thank You Scott.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

JaMo said:


> Hi. No, I have not. After an internal struggle I decided to go with the highest specified version. So I have only owned and used the SE120 version ( I will never sell it). But I am sure that the REF10 also is very good. The Mutec design has a very refined PSU for the OCXO. This is equal important as the XO itself. This to be able to keep noise levels down. Mutec PSU is very silent, far lower and beyond what we can hear. Our friend @DACLadder own the Mutec REF10 and I know he is pleased with it. He may comment on it. We'll see. @DACLadder also provided Kingwa @ Audio-gd a Mutec REF10 unit to and this will benefit us all when Kingwa continue to further evolve his designs and firmwares. This is really good. Thank You Scott.



Thank you! I remembered correctly then. Surely if you can afford it, there is good reason to go with the best.

I have the REF10 on my list, the price here is good. The SE120 is another 1.200 euros, I'm not sure I want to spend it.

And I have a big problem with lack of space, I don't know where I would place a big clock.


----------



## lator

To be able to buy high end gear for mid-fi prices is truly a refreshing change of pace. Thank you Audio-GD and LHY.


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## JaMo (Nov 18, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thank you! I remembered correctly then. Surely if you can afford it, there is good reason to go with the best.
> 
> I have the REF10 on my list, the price here is good. The SE120 is another 1.200 euros, I'm not sure I want to spend it.
> 
> And I have a big problem with lack of space, I don't know where I would place a big clock.


In my case, I approached Mutec by email with some questions before the SE120 was announced for the market. I wasn't really in for a buy at the time. I got an answer the same night and I was lucky (I guess..) to get small discount on a combined REF10 SE120 and a MC3+USB reclocker, delivery included. I had a "severe internal struggle" with the money numbers but I decided to go all in under these circumstances. I have never regret this decision. The REF10 SE was delivered with the original face plate and I was promised to get the SE120 faceplate when they was produced. Said and done. Replacing the faceplate was an easy task. Now the prices have rised to an unhealthy level on Mutec clocks

I can assure You to be a happy listener with the Ock-1 and most likely the Ock-2 for very decent money. I have to admit that I hadn't expected the Ock-1 to perform this good. This also compared to the REF10 SE120
/Jan


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## gimmeheadroom (Nov 18, 2022)

JaMo said:


> In my case, I approached Mutec by email with some questions before the SE120 was announced for the market. I wasn't really in for a buy at the time. I got an answer the same night and I was lucky (I guess..) to get small discount on a combined REF10 SE120 and a MC3+USB reclocker, delivery included. I had a "severe internal struggle" with the money numbers but I decided to go all in under these circumstances. I have never regret this decision. The REF10 SE was delivered with the original face plate and I was promised to get the SE120 when they was produced. Said and done. Replacing the faceplate was an easy task. Now the prices have rised to an unhealthy level on Mutec clocks
> 
> I can assure You to be a happy listener with the Ock-1 and most likely the Ock-2 for very decent money. I have to admit that I hadn't expected the Ock-1 to perform this good. This also compared to the REF10 SE120
> /Jan


Chris at Mutec usually gets back to me quickly also. I have two Mutec boxes and I know I would get good service from them if anything happened. It is somewhat close by, so if I get a clock it will most likely be the REF10. It's not really that expensive here.

The other thing about Mutec that impresses me is that in every email, Chris says thank you for being a customer and buying the product. I feel they have a face, and appreciate my business.

Great story and great post! Many thanks


----------



## Dandoudou

I have the C2 for 50 ohms. 
Which 75 ohms cable would you advise me?


----------



## JaMo

Dandoudou said:


> I have the C2 for 50 ohms.
> Which 75 ohms cable would you advise me?


I bought two 75 Ohm BNC cables from Mutec. I have also tried to use Military spec 1 m 75 Ohm BNC cables. They worked fine too. 75 Ohm BNC is recording studio standard so You can find good and cheap 75 Ohm cables at Thomann, https://www.thomann.de/fr/pro_snake...MIp-mhlfO5-wIVytvVCh3DlQfLEAQYAiABEgIMafD_BwE


----------



## Dandoudou

JaMo said:


> I bought two 75 Ohm BNC cables from Mutec. I have also tried to use Military spec 1 m 75 Ohm BNC cables. They worked fine too. 75 Ohm BNC is recording studio standard so You can find good and cheap 75 Ohm cables at Thomann, https://www.thomann.de/fr/pro_snake...MIp-mhlfO5-wIVytvVCh3DlQfLEAQYAiABEgIMafD_BwE


Thank you.
I read somewhere on one of the threads that the LMR400 50 ohms is almost as good as the C2.
Can someone confirm it?


----------



## JaMo (Nov 19, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> Thank you.
> I read somewhere on one of the threads that the LMR400 50 ohms is almost as good as the C2.
> Can someone confirm it?


LMR400 is good. I have two of them up and running (Ock-1 to U18 and to R26)  and two more incoming/on order. @FredA have both C2 and LMR400. He can fill in on this


----------



## Dandoudou

I found the LMR400 for €16 on Aliexpress. 
I'll buy it to compare it with the C2, and I'll post feedback.


----------



## JaMo (Nov 19, 2022)

Guys and gals,
I am sorry to have polluted this DI20/HE thread with a bit too much master clock talk. It is not completely OT though the DI20/HE benefit very well with a good external clock.

Master clocks are vital for the final sonic result of the gears/rigs and more and more gears today are equipped with this option to add an externa XO.

Master clocks deserv their own thread. I found an old thread named "Master Clock Talk" that could get new life: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/master-clock-talk.228428/page-6


----------



## FredA (Nov 19, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> Thank you.
> I read somewhere on one of the threads that the LMR400 50 ohms is almost as good as the C2.
> Can someone confirm it?


Well i said this so me saying it again should not count as confirmation  . I will go back to the lmr400 on the dac. This should be  enlightening.


----------



## FredA

One thing though, the c2 and the lm400 do not sound the same. So it is more about taste and synergy than sound quality.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

JaMo said:


> Guys and gals,
> I am sorry to have polluted this DI20/HE thread with a bit too much master clock talk. It is not completely OT though the DI20/HE benefit very well with a good external clock.
> 
> Master clocks are vital for the final sonic result of the gears/rigs and more and more gears today are equipped with this option to add an externa XO.
> ...



Nonsense! Your posts are 100% on topic and super helpful. Thank you for all the great info you have posted in the Audio-gd threads!


----------



## Fibre101

FredA said:


> One thing though, the c2 and the lm400 do not sound the same. So it is more about taste and synergy than sound quality.


I currently use the lm400 (really thick) bnc cables as well and debating whether I should replace with the C2. Are they really night and day difference. The C2 is like 10x the price!


----------



## lator

Fibre101 said:


> I currently use the lm400 (really thick) bnc cables as well and debating whether I should replace with the C2. Are they really night and day difference. The C2 is like 10x the price!


Just ordered C2 yesterday should arrive by next week. I'll add impressions here.


----------



## FredA

Fibre101 said:


> I currently use the lm400 (really thick) bnc cables as well and debating whether I should replace with the C2. Are they really night and day difference. The C2 is like 10x the price!


Not at all. They are very close. My best advice is to wait for something better.


----------



## roberto2 (Nov 22, 2022)

Beatechnik is selling a 50 ohm cable for 79$ that looks nice but I don't know how it sounds...

https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/bnc-cable


----------



## FredA

roberto2 said:


> Beatechnik is selling a 50 ohm cable for 79$ that looks nice but I don't know hot it sounds...
> 
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/bnc-cable


Looks much (50-ohm version) like the the Gustard C2. Gustard does not make their cable AFAIK. Question the seller.


----------



## gimmeheadroom (Nov 22, 2022)

roberto2 said:


> Beatechnik is selling a 50 ohm cable for 79$ that looks nice but I don't know hot it sounds...
> 
> https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/bnc-cable


Similar 75 ohm cables are like 12 euros. I have to believe we can do better.

For example this https://www.thomann.de/intl/pro_snake_bncleitung_05m.htm is less than 2,5 euros.

I used to have tools to crimp coax, I need to get another set.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Do you guys have any sense of how helpful a good clock is just into the DI-20HE, rather than directly into the DAC?


----------



## ChJL

Jake2 said:


> Makes me wonder how a U18 (or DI20 non-HE) + a quality power regenerator like the PS Audio PowerPlant 3 would fare vs the DI20HE.


Look at post 1009 in Gustard U18 thread! @MartinWT uses just that...


----------



## Jake2

ChJL said:


> Look at post 1009 in Gustard U18 thread! @MartinWT uses just that...


Cheers, yes I've since had a few exchanges from Martin around this.


----------



## PeterCraig

gimmeheadroom said:


> Do you guys have any sense of how helpful a good clock is just into the DI-20HE, rather than directly into the DAC?



I'm using the DI-20HE with the Morion feeding a 9 year old Master 7. The M7 doesn't accept a clock signal. 

I had the pleasure recently of going without the Morion as I lent it to a friend for 10 days. And quite honestly my system sounded great without it. 

But once put back the cliche of cliches takes place and a veil was lifted. At least on headphones. Everything becomes more natural and clear. But not by leaps and bounds. But definitely enough to make it worth it. 

I'm on the fence about trying an OCK-1.


----------



## lator

gimmeheadroom said:


> Do you guys have any sense of how helpful a good clock is just into the DI-20HE, rather than directly into the DAC?


OCK-1 improves sound quite a bit I only connect it to DI-20HE. Quite similar improvements as using a proper USB reclocker (Innuos Phoenix or Ideon 3R Master Time for example).


----------



## gimmeheadroom

lator said:


> OCK-1 improves sound quite a bit I only connect it to DI-20HE. Quite similar improvements as using a proper USB reclocker (Innuos Phoenix or Ideon 3R Master Time for example).


Thank you and @PeterCraig for the helpful info!

I have a Mutec MC-3+ USB which I can drive from the REF10 in addition to the DI-20HE. I can use the MC-3+ USB directly or AES/EBU out of the DI-20HE. So I expect some improvement, but I didn't know how much better it could be when driving the DAC directly.


----------



## JaMo (Nov 26, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I have a Mutec MC-3+ USB which I can drive from the REF10 in addition to the DI-20HE. I can use the MC-3+ USB directly or AES/EBU out of the DI-20HE. So I expect some improvement, but I didn't know how much better it could be when driving the DAC directly.


I also have a MC3+USB. I thought it sounded a bit synthetic/artficial so a with a quick investgation I found a small swtched power supply inside. I voided the warranty tha same evening and "extracted" the switched PSU and then rebuild the unit to to get its 5V from a Ultra Silent Linear PSU. That was the cure! The sound went up to the DI20HE level.
The MC3+USB doesn't send out I2s but it has a very good DSD to PCM conversion. For me this os brilliant for my TDA1541A S2 dac (Kingwa's design limited ed.)

I can absolutely recommend the switched PSU extraction, if You are into the voiding of the warranty game..
/Jan


----------



## gimmeheadroom

JaMo said:


> I also have a MC3+USB. I thought it sounded a bit synthetic/artficial so a with a quick investgation I found a small swtched power supply inside. I vaided the warranty tha same evening and "extracted" the switched PSU and then rebuild the unit to to get its 5V from a Ultra Silent Linear PSU. That was the cure! The sound went up to the DI20HE level.
> The MC3+USB doesn't send out I2s but it has a very good DSD to PCM conversion. For me this os brilliant for my TDA1541A S2 dac (Kingwa's design limited ed.)
> 
> I can absolutely recommend the switched PSU extraction, if You are into the voiding of the warranty game..
> /Jan


I remember you mentioned this, but I don't think my DIY skills are up to that level. I don't understand SMD at all, I don't have experience with ESD work. I was ok with through-hole in the 1970s and 1980s but that's as far as it goes with me.

I don't use the MC-3+ for DSD at all, I was surprised to hear you like the conversion. When I listen to SACD rips, I run IIS off the DI-20HE to the DAC.


----------



## JaMo (Nov 23, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I was surprised to hear you like the conversion. When I listen to SACD rips, I run IIS off the DI-20HE to the DAC.


Yes, I do that with the other chains. But with the older chip designs (PCM1704, TDA1541A..), not supporting DSD.. Those chips was designed before DSD was invented.

So in my music library I have both PCM in many formats and I also have rather much DSD material... And I want to able "to throw" all formats to all and every dac (DeltaSigma, R2R ladders and to those older non-DSD dacs. The MC3+USB converts DSD to highest possible standard PCM in 176.4kHz.

Edit. I also use the MC3+USB as reclocker to better up and restore the SPDIF signal from my TEAC CD player.
/J


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## lator (Nov 23, 2022)

Fibre101 said:


> I currently use the lm400 (really thick) bnc cables as well and debating whether I should replace with the C2. Are they really night and day difference. The C2 is like 10x the price!


C2 arrived early and been comparing against Cybershaft semi rigid 2 clock cable. First off my previous preference running OCK-1 to DI-20HE from sinewave output is reversed while using C2. With C2 squarewave output is a clear winner as it should be in theory.

So comparisons are Cybershaft sine vs C2 square from this point forward.

C2 has overall more polished sound. Decay is a bit shorter but not overly short still sounding natural. Resolution especially mid frequencies goes to C2 and soundstaging is more natural. Cybershaft pinpoints sounds drawing attention to hifi magic tricks but on the other hand imaging is strong. Vocal timbre is more accurate with C2. High frequencies are maybe a bit subdued with C2.

First conclusion is that C2 seems more natural fit for DI-20HE but both are high quality options and tables could turn if using sinewave optimised equipment.


----------



## Dandoudou (Nov 23, 2022)

I have feedback to share about the USB port of the DI-20HE.

I should describe first briefly my streaming setup.
I have two RPI streamers, an Allo USBridge Sig and a PI2AES. Both work with a RBi3 and GentooPlayer that is configured as a Diretta Target.
For those who do not know this software, Diretta is a Japanese streaming protocol with which the CPU load of the streamer is extremely low, because a Host on the LAN renders the sound.

Before buying the DI-20HE, the sound of the PI2AES was more refined than the sound of the Allo. I was connecting the PI2AES to the I2S input of my Pegasus R2R DAC, and the Allo to its USB input.

The DI-20HE improved the sound of my system. Since I bought it, a few months ago, I connect it to the I2S port of Pegasus. I connect the PI2AES to the SPDIF port of the DI-20HE, and the Allo to its USB port.
In this configuration, the addition of the DI-20HE to the setup reduced the difference between the sound quality of the two streamers. Nevertheless, the sound of the PI2AES  remained more refined.

I have an iFi iGalvanic 3 that I use with a laptop and a mobile USB DAC. I never thought that it might be worthy to try to use iGalvanic with the Allo, since the Allo is supposed to have a “Clean” USB output.

A few weeks ago, I placed iGalvanic between the Allo and the DI-20HE, and I was surprised by the improvement of the sound. The sound of the Allo became much more ample. In A/B comparisons, it became actually superior to the sound of the PI2AES.
Since then, I use the Allo as my main streamer in the following setup:

Allo USBridge Sig > USB > iFi iGlavanic 3 > USB > DI-20HE > IAS > Pegasus

My conclusion was that the galvanic isolation of the USB port of both the Allo and the DI-20HE was not that great.
I made then another test. I connected the Allo directly to the USB port of Pegasus, both with and without iGalvanic. And in the A/B comparison, I could not hear a difference. If there was one, it was way too subtle for my auditory memory, because it takes about a minute to switch the playback from one configuration to the other.

Therefore, I conclude that the galvanic isolation of the USB port of Pegasus is superior to the one of the DI-20HE, which is quite surprising.
I don’t know if other DI-20 users observed something similar.


----------



## lator

Never tried with DI-20 or DI-20HE because they work without USB vbus connected. However with M2TECH ddc  got similar results with iFi iPurifier 3 and Jcat/Intona USB Isolator.


----------



## lator

Forgot to note that Ideon 3R Master Time Black Star works great between source and DI-20/HE.


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## Dandoudou (Nov 23, 2022)

lator said:


> However with M2TECH ddc got similar results with iFi iPurifier 3 and Jcat/Intona USB Isolator.


As you mentioned Intona, it reminds me that I tried it with a friend, a few weeks after I bought Pegasus. I completely forgot  about this trial.

We placed the Intona between the Allo and Pegasus, and powered it by the USB port, then by an iFi iPower, and finally by an Allo Shanti.
Only when the Intona was powered by the Shanti, we could hear a very small improvement: a slightly better resolution on the drum beats of a track of jazz.


----------



## Jake2

gimmeheadroom said:


> Similar 75 ohm cables are like 12 euros. I have to believe we can do better.
> 
> For example this https://www.thomann.de/intl/pro_snake_bncleitung_05m.htm is less than 2,5 euros.
> 
> I used to have tools to crimp coax, I need to get another set.


In terms of 'doing better' I reckon a not bad approach would be to select and try a reasonably priced cable from a company that specialises in the design and manufacture of RF and microwave components and integrated assemblies (incl cables) and provides a good suite of measurements for each model including those relevant to our intended use of carrying a 10mhz clock signal. Specs, such as:

the cable's 'return loss' in db, higher the better - its inherent level of internal reflectivity at a range of frequencies including 10mhz. This value represents the ratio of the incident (or signal) wave to the reflected wave
insertion loss, sorta  but not precisely the inverse of return loss. Also measured in db, the lower the better.   
For example something like this USD25 hand-formable cable from Minicircuit with a return loss at 10mhz of ~45db (superb, anything about 20db is very good I understand) and insertion loss of 0.02 db (vanishingly low). https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=141-24BM+ See link for downloadable data sheet.






Which looks remarkably similar to Cybershaft's USD30-55 semi-rigid cable, though the latter is offered at multiple lengths up to 1.5m whereas the former has a maximum length of two feet per Minicircuit's selection tool. This one comes with a certificate of measured 'SWR' - which I presume refers Standing Wave Ratio or Voltage Standing Wave Ratio (VSWR), closely related to return loss, another way of measuring the amount of reflected signal.  https://cybershaft.shop/products/50ohm-bnc-semi-rigid-cable-2





I would've already ordered a cable or two from either or both of these companies to try if the shipping to NZ wasn't totally insane for Minicircuit (~USD140) and OTT for Cybershaft relative to the cable prices (>USD50). I believe a few folk on here have used the Cybershaft and rate it.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Thank you for the info and link @Jake2 

I'm checking with Mutec on availability of 50 ohm clock cables.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

gimmeheadroom said:


> Thank you for the info and link @Jake2
> 
> I'm checking with Mutec on availability of 50 ohm clock cables.



Ok, got a quick answer and it's not good. Mutec doesn't have any 50 ohm cables. This is not surprising, just annoying.

I will probably buy a crimp tool and bulk cable. I have been putting this off because it seems like you need specific crimp tools or at least dies for every type of connector nowadays. I made 50 ohm cables in the 70s and 80s and it was a lot easier...

So, I'll probably be selling custom 50 ohm cables some time next year


----------



## JaMo

Hi all, 

I have put a bit of new life into the Master Clock Talk thread. Here is a link to my first post there: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/master-clock-talk.228428/post-17261742

/Jan


----------



## Fibre101

Probably a silly question but does the di 20 use alot of bus power? I assume not but wanted to be sure since I wanted to try my usb regen, but I only have a 12v linear supply.


----------



## ProLoL

Fibre101 said:


> Probably a silly question but does the di 20 use alot of bus power? I assume not but wanted to be sure since I wanted to try my usb regen, but I only have a 12v linear supply.


My USB regen worked great with a 5v PSU connected to the DI20.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Nov 26, 2022)

I wanted to ask for some advice from DI-20 users.

I had a DI-20HE which worked perfectly.   I sold it, regreted, and bought a new one.  The new one outputs I2s perfectly but all other outputs- ACSS, SPDIF, Balanced output with tons of electrical noise.   I have tried multiple DAC's and PC's and USB cables and the result is the same.   The HDMI is perfect, the other outputs are full of electrical noise.  Has anyone else experienced this issue and how do I go about solving it?


----------



## Fibre101

rsbrsvp said:


> I wanted to ask for some advice from DI-20 users.
> 
> IO had a DI-20HE which worked perfectly.   I sold it, regreted, and bought a new one.  The new one outputs I2s perfectly but all other outputs- ACSS, SPDIF, Balanced output with tons of electrical noise.   I have tried multiple DAC's and PC's and USB cables and the result is the same.   The HDMI is perfect, the other outputs are full of electrical noise.  Has anyone else experienced this issue and how do I go about solving it?


This also happened to me when I bought my di 20 a while back. I think this is happening because of burning in, not exactly sure. Can't remember what I did but it disappeared after a day or two. I think I just messed around with sample rates untill one worked.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Nov 26, 2022)

Fibre101 said:


> This also happened to me when I bought my di 20 a while back. I think this is happening because of burning in, not exactly sure. Can't remember what I did but it disappeared after a day or two. I think I just messed around with sample rates untill one worked.


I've had mine for several months- and it is not going away....  All outputs besides HDMI are completely useless as the noise is very very obvious...


----------



## Fibre101

What firmware are you using? Also what dac? Odd that only the i2s is working well. Are you using an external clock?


----------



## JaMo

rsbrsvp said:


> I've had mine for several months- and it is not going away....  All outputs besides HDMI are completely useless as the noise is very very obvious...


You should definitely take contact with Kingwa about this issue


----------



## rsbrsvp

So I have identified the problem.      It only happens when I up-sample or down-sample the music from from my PC.  If I play the file in its original format- there is no noise from any of the outputs......  

The question is how to fix the problem.   I have tried every firmware- and they all react the same...


----------



## PeterCraig

Narrowing it down. 

Have you tried up-sampling on the pc with different software. 

If not try another software program and see if the results are the same.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Any up-sampling or down-sampling whether using audrivana, JR River Media, or even windows built in sample rate converter causes this noise.

By the way- what is the absolute best performing copper based (no silver) Hdmi cable?


----------



## Jandu

rsbrsvp said:


> Any up-sampling or down-sampling whether using audrivana, JR River Media, or even windows built in sample rate converter causes this noise.
> 
> By the way- what is the absolute best performing copper based (no silver) Hdmi cable?


Not sure about best, but performance/price ratio is highest with blue jean HDMI 0.5m


----------



## Jake2

rsbrsvp said:


> Any up-sampling or down-sampling whether using audrivana, JR River Media, or even windows built in sample rate converter causes this noise.
> 
> By the way- what is the absolute best performing copper based (no silver) Hdmi cable?


A few folk over in the U18 thread really rate the Tubulus Argentus, including one who found it a big step up over the BJC FE he'd used for a while in his pretty resolving system. Oops - sorry, just realised it's silver so not what you asked about but may be of use to others considering I2S cable upgrades.

I'm using the BJC FE which works well and is super affordable but I've no other I2S reference point.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

rsbrsvp said:


> Any up-sampling or down-sampling whether using audrivana, JR River Media, or even windows built in sample rate converter causes this noise.



Is this true even without the DI-20HE?



rsbrsvp said:


> By the way- what is the absolute best performing copper based (no silver) Hdmi cable?



That is clearly not possible to answer since it's based on opinion. I like Wireworld cables, they come in various flavors and they're good values IMHO.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Nov 27, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Is this true even without the DI-20HE?


USB direct to any DAC I have tried from my PC is perfect.  Only with the DI between the PC and DAC,  and I have tried several PC's, several DAC's, and several USB cables, does this problem occur.  I use Amazon HD to stream and have my windows output on the combo 384 set at 32/44.1..  We know that Amazon is not bit perfect and therefore- any music at higher bitrates will downsample to this value and at lower bitrates will upsample to this value.  Every single file which is recorded at 16/44.1 plays perfect through all outputs.  Every single file which is at a higher value like 48 or 96 hertz results in electrical noise through the non i2s outputs.


----------



## bodiebill2

PeterCraig said:


> Narrowing it down.
> 
> Have you tried up-sampling on the pc with different software.
> 
> If not try another software program and see if the results are the same.


I think I once noticed the same noise and concluded that it happened because the product of two times oversampling (PC and DAC) was higher than 8x. For instance 2x an 4x still works but 4x and 4x produces noise.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

rsbrsvp said:


> USB direct to any DAC I have tried from my PC is perfect.  Only with the DI between the PC and DAC,  and I have tried several PC's, several DAC's, and several USB cables, does this problem occur.  I use Amazon HD to stream and have my windows output on the combo 384 set at 32/44.1..  We know that Amazon is not bit perfect and therefore- any music at higher bitrates will downsample to this value and at lower bitrates will upsample to this value.  Every single file which is recorded at 16/44.1 plays perfect through all outputs.  Every single file which is at a higher value like 48 or 96 hertz results in electrical noise through the non i2s outputs.


There's a lot of software in the way here. Have you tried with a bitperfect source using the DI-20HE's ASIO drivers?


----------



## rsbrsvp

gimmeheadroom said:


> There's a lot of software in the way here. Have you tried with a bitperfect source using the DI-20HE's ASIO drivers?


All bit perfect files play perfectly through all outputs


----------



## gimmeheadroom

rsbrsvp said:


> All bit perfect files play perfectly through all outputs



If so, I have to believe there is an interaction in the Amanero driver and Windows mixer when ASIO is not used. What if you try 24/44.1? More to the point, what if you set both Windows mixer and the Amanero driver to the same depth and sample rate?

BTW I use Bluesound devices to stream from scamazon, that way you get bit-perfect. They're not expensive and they support a large number of services. I also use them with Tidal for the MQA, and for Deezer Hifi which like scamazon does not have a bitperfect desktop app. I use the coax out of the Bluesound into the DI-20/HE and they're good up to 24/192.


----------



## rsbrsvp

gimmeheadroom said:


> If so, I have to believe there is an interaction in the Amanero driver and Windows mixer when ASIO is not used. What if you try 24/44.1? More to the point, what if you set both Windows mixer and the Amanero driver to the same depth and sample rate?
> 
> BTW I use Bluesound devices to stream from scamazon, that way you get bit-perfect. They're not expensive and they support a large number of services. I also use them with Tidal for the MQA, and for Deezer Hifi which like scamazon does not have a bitperfect desktop app. I use the coax out of the Bluesound into the DI-20/HE and they're good up to 24/192.


This sounds like a reasonable idea.   I do not know however how to set the depth and sample rate in the windows mixer as I do not see that option available in the sound mixer..


----------



## gimmeheadroom

rsbrsvp said:


> This sounds like a reasonable idea.   I do not know however how to set the depth and sample rate in the windows mixer as I do not see that option available in the sound mixer..


I may not have remembered correctly. Maybe the one device is the only place you can change it. 

Here is what I have:







On this tab what you select only matters if you don't use ASIO or WASAPI drivers supplied by Amanero. So in the case of a music player that doesn't do bitperfect, these settings can matter. However in my setup, I got rid of all the desktop apps.






Volume should always be set to 100% here.






Again, the settings on this tab only matter if you don't use ASIO or WASAPI drivers. In my case I was testing a 48K file from a non bitperfect app and so I set this to match that rate. But, the two checkboxes are important.






And of course, turn off Spatial sound and any enhancements that might be offered.


----------



## lator

^I have all Windows sound devices disabled and set output manually from audio player settings.


----------



## rsbrsvp (Nov 27, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> I may not have remembered correctly. Maybe the one device is the only place you can change it.
> 
> Here is what I have:
> 
> ...


Wow- that was thorough.   I did all this.  Tons of noise from non HDMI outputs.  It makes no sense because my previous DI-20HE had no issues in the same system.

Problem is I sent it back to audio-gd and they checked it thoroughly and found NO problems.  It almost sounds like interference is getting Sounds very much like emi/rfi noise) in there but I cannot figure how to stop it.  I wonder if perhaps it is not grounded inside?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

rsbrsvp said:


> Wow- that was thorough.   I did all this.  Tons of noise from non HDMI outputs.  It makes no sense because my previous DI-20HE had no issues in the same system.
> 
> Problem is I sent it back to audio-gd and they checked it thoroughly and found NO problems.  It almost sounds like interference is getting Sounds very much like emi/rfi noise) in there but I cannot figure how to stop it.  I wonder if perhaps it is not grounded inside?



Is the DAC also new?


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have tried my DI-20HE on 4 different dacs using the ACSS and SPDIF output.  Also- with two different PC's, end even in someone else's home- just to make sure it is not my electricity.  Also- I have tried 3 different USB cables.   Same problem.....   I just got a lemon; but audio-gd will not replace it; although they did offer me my money back.  Problem is I don't want money.  I want the the DI-20HE to work.   And- with HDMI out it does or with any other output as long as it is up or downsampled.


----------



## Jandu

rsbrsvp said:


> I have tried my DI-20HE on 4 different dacs using the ACSS and SPDIF output.  Also- with two different PC's, end even in someone else's home- just to make sure it is not my electricity.  Also- I have tried 3 different USB cables.   Same problem.....   I just got a lemon; but audio-gd will not replace it; although they did offer me my money back.  Problem is I don't want money.  I want the the DI-20HE to work.   And- with HDMI out it does or with any other output as long as it is up or downsampled.


I suggest to leave it, allow it to burn in for at least 500 hrs. My unit had noises with most connections in the beginning which went away as it ages.


----------



## bodiebill2

Jandu said:


> I suggest to leave it, allow it to burn in for at least 500 hrs. My unit had noises with most connections in the beginning which went away as it ages.


@rsbrsvp
Does the problem occur with USB input as well as spdif input into the DI20HE?
Did you try reflashing the DI20HE' s firmware?


----------



## Dandoudou (Nov 27, 2022)

During the first months, my DI-20HE was suddenly starting to emit, once or twice a day,  a strong noise, like a kind of ground loop. It was happening only when there was no playback. As soon as I was streaming music, the noise was disappearing, but could come back if I stopped streaming.
The only way to stop the noise was to reboot the DI.

This annoyance disappeared over time.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I have reboot 10 times, reinstalled firmware 20 times and burnt in unit for over 1000 hours.  I have reinstalled Amanero driver many times as well.  I have not specifically burnt in using the spdif output functioning as all burn in has been with the HDMI output- and this may be the last possibility.    All input is USB from PC only...


----------



## Dandoudou

It was happening to me both with USB and SPDIF input. 
For output, I've always been using I2S.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

That's frustrating. I hope it starts working properly soon.


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## sajunky (Nov 27, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> A few weeks ago, I placed iGalvanic between the Allo and the DI-20HE, and I was surprised by the improvement of the sound. The sound of the Allo became much more ample. In A/B comparisons, it became actually superior to the sound of the PI2AES.
> Since then, I use the Allo as my main streamer in the following setup:
> 
> Allo USBridge Sig > USB > iFi iGlavanic 3 > USB > DI-20HE > IAS > Pegasus
> ...


You made some good testing, however my conclusion is quite opposite. When some level of refinement is reached, our sensors become more sensitive. We start to react on very small changes. This is what you get with DI-20HE.

With Pegasus alone I have two comments. First, I am not sure whether Pegasus USB connection use asynchronous transfers with a local oscilator as a master or does reclocking like Denafrips does. Reclocking degrade sound comparing to the direct use of local oscilators. Secondly, Pegasus do not have a galvanic isolation on USB port, if it does, correct me if I am wrong. So, it cannot be better separation than on the DI-20HE. My conclusion is that either a direct Pegasus connection has reached dirty level where our sensors do not report a difference (you know that in extreme all DACs sound the same), or ifi iGalvanic is not effective. Ifi recommends iDefender in combination with iGalvanic.


----------



## sajunky

Fibre101 said:


> Probably a silly question but does the di 20 use alot of bus power? I assume not but wanted to be sure since I wanted to try my usb regen, but I only have a 12v linear supply.


DI-20 do not use USB power. In fact in all Audio GD equipment (DACs an DDCs) with Amanero USB module USB power is not connected.


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## Dandoudou (Nov 27, 2022)

sajunky said:


> You made some good testing, however my conclusion is quite opposite. When some level of refinement is reached, our sensors become more sensitive. We start to react on very small changes. This is what you get with DI-20HE.
> 
> With Pegasus alone I have two comments. First, I am not sure whether Pegasus USB connection use asynchronous transfers with a local oscilator as a master or does reclocking like Denafrips does. Reclocking degrade sound comparing to the direct use of local oscilators. Secondly, Pegasus do not have a galvanic isolation on USB port, if it does, correct me if I am wrong. So, it cannot be better separation than on the DI-20HE. My conclusion is that either a direct Pegasus connection has reached dirty level where our sensors do not report a difference (you know that in extreme all DACs sound the same), or ifi iGalvanic is not effective. Ifi recommends iDefender in combination with iGalvanic.


My system is quite transparent. I use optical isolation, and all the gear is powered with good LPSs.
At the beginning, my interpretation was similar to yours. I thought that with the DI-20HE the transparency of my system was even greater, and that was the reason for which I can hear an improvement when iGalvanic is placed between the Allo USBridge and the DI.
But my interpretation changed after thinking to what happens in the system of @bodiebill2 . He told me that with his After Dark Rossana streamer + his DI-20HE, the sound was not as good as with his SOtM + DI-20HE, despite the fact that Rossana benefits from the Diretta protocol, and is configured as a Diretta Target. He concluded that the USB port of the SOtM was better implemented than the port of Rossanna. That's why I reached the conclusion that the galvanic isolation of the USB port of the DI-20HE was not that great.

Pegasus has a good USB implementation by AMR. I just presumed that it has a galvanic isolation, but I did not see any technical information about this port, and as far as I know the Musician did not release it.

I don't have iFi iDefender, but I have iFi iPurifier 3. When I place it alone between the USB ports of the Allo and the DI-20HE, it improves the sound, but not as much as iGalvanic. When I use both iGalvanic and iPurifier, the improvement is very slightly better than with iGalvanic alone.

I bought the Gustard R26. When I will receive it, I will proceed with additional tests. I will report how its USB input behaves VS the input  of the DI-20HE.


----------



## sajunky

Dandoudou said:


> I don't have iFi iDefender, but I have iFi iPurifier 3. When I place it alone between the USB ports of the Allo and the DI-20HE, it improves the sound, but not as much as iGalvanic. When I use both iGalvanic and iPurifier, the improvement is very slightly better than with iGalvanic alone.


In my view iDefender is the most effective iFi device for DACs having no galvanic isolation on USB port, suggesting to try. Purifier is just a marketing toy, it works like USB Hub, its effectiveness is not better. Have no experience with iGalvanic, but even iFi suggest to use it with iDefender. For a real galvanic isolator, we need professional devices like Intona.


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## bodiebill2 (Nov 27, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> But my interpretation changed after thinking to what happens in the system of @bodiebill2 . He told me that with his After Dark Rossana streamer + his DI-20HE, the sound was not as good as with his SOtM + DI-20HE, despite the fact that Rossana benefits from the Diretta protocol, and is configured as a Diretta Target. He concluded that the USB port of the SOtM was better implemented than the port of Rossanna. That's why I reached the conclusion that the galvanic isolation of the USB port of the DI-20HE was not that great.



Correction:
Rossana + Diretta >= SOtM sMS Neo Ultra SE + mpd/upmpdcli > Rossana + mpd/upmpdcli

" >= " meaning that it is at least as good, maybe slightly better.

Both Rossana and SOtM have a 10 MHz 75 Ohm clock input.

A rational explanation of this result could be that for Rossana I use a Paul Hynes SR4T LPS that is better than the LPS in Rossana, but that Diretta (more?) than makes up for this. I might experiment with powering Rossana with a Paul Hynes.

Streamers with 10 MHz input are pretty rare, so I am keeping both for experiments 

P S Forgot to say: I sold my USB isolators when I got the DI20HE as they hardly made any difference to my ears anymore.


----------



## sajunky

rsbrsvp said:


> I have reboot 10 times, reinstalled firmware 20 times and burnt in unit for over 1000 hours.


I read about last two pages and it is a really tough problem. And DI-20 came back from Kingwa with no fault detected... 

I think something in a system has changed between testing with the first unit. My first bet is that you are using Windows 10/11 and upgrades to the system were made. I hear that Windows 11 messed up with USB stack similar to the Creators version. Old story, it took Microsoft 3 years to fix all issues. You don't have other device with Amanero receiver to try, but I have some suggestions, most most important first:

- With win10/11 disconnect DI-20 and uninstall Amanero drivers, including ASIO driver from the Control Panel if it is still there on the list. Restart Windows and reconnect DI-20. Let Windows to recognise device and load built-in drivers. If it doesn't load drivers, there is something wrong with Windows or firmware on the Amanero is corrupt. Then try to see whether problem persists. This is critical test, as Amanero driver use bulk mode transfers, while built-in driver use asynchronous audio mode like XMOS devices.

- try to use beta Amanero firmware (which also comes with different Windows drivers)

- don't use Amanero output as a default Windows device. Lets select Amanero in your application instead. As a bonus, it will prevent Windows sounds to leak.

Of course, the most intriguing is fact that bit-perfect transfers do not trigger a problem. Did you check DPC latency?


----------



## Dandoudou

bodiebill2 said:


> SOtM sMS Neo Ultra SE + mpd/upmpdcli > Rossana + mpd/upmpdcli


Thank you for correcting me. 

If the quality of the Paul Hynes SR4T LPS makes the difference in this comparison, Rossana is somehow more noisy with its built-in LPS. A good galvanic isolation of the USB port is supposed to reduce the incoming noise.


----------



## iFi audio

Dandoudou said:


> I don't have iFi iDefender, but I have iFi iPurifier 3. When I place it alone between the USB ports of the Allo and the DI-20HE, it improves the sound, but not as much as iGalvanic. When I use both iGalvanic and iPurifier, the improvement is very slightly better than with iGalvanic alone.



That's about correct. iPurifier 3 is our entry-level USB reclocker/regenerator, designed to improve USB a fair bit, but not as much as micro iUSB3.0 (now discontinued) that is comparable (as in: tiered the same way in our offer) to iGalvanic3.0. Hope this helps, thanks!


----------



## OCC7N (Dec 19, 2022)

bodiebill2 said:


> Another data point: my DI-20HE WCLK output was internally 'converted' to 75 Ohm (although the connector remains 50 Ohm, don't ask me to explain) and I prefer using this for my Merging Hapi 75 Ohm WCLK input above the Hapi's own clock. The DI-20HE receives an external 10 MHz clock signal from an Afterdark Trifecta Emperor Double Crown.


Seriously this needs to be adressed. Its nothing but confusion.

This is where I lose all my logic. Is this some sort of marketing 2 in 1 thing?

Im gonna hold the trigger on this one. My patience went up.

I dont understand why Kingwa has not yet clarified this.

20.12.2022
UPDATE: It was my own misunderstanding(poor knowledge)
PM me for more information


----------



## sajunky (Nov 28, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> This is where I lose all my logic. Is this some sort of marketing 2 in 1 thing?


75Ohm was a standard for word clock in the professional audio equipment and TV installations.

50Ohm was a standard in measuring equipment, amateur radio, military radar installations, etc.

When 10MHz clock was introduced, designers decided for 50Ohm cabling, I think it was in order to differentiate from the existing audio word clock systems. It makes sense, as these clock systems are functionally incompatible, i.e., word clock frequency depends on the current sampling rate, while 10MHz clock is fixed frequency and requires sophisticated clock synthesisers to work.

Audio GD has 75ohm output for a word clock, it is compatible with professional audio and 50Ohm inputs for 10MHz clock, it matches most of 10MHz sources. I don't see any deviation from a common practice.

A for compatibility of connectors, it depends. On the long cable runs impedance must be maintained to avoid standing wave (reflection on both ends: back and forward). However tolerance of cables impedance is not maintained very strict, making matching difficult, reflections on connectors are much smaller than cables. So matching connectors is less important. On the short runs matching impedance is even less important. It is why for the 10Mhz clock applications it can be assumed that these connectors are compatible.

Hope it clears any questions.

[EDIT] Similar discussion is pending in parallel. Can anyone repost this in high-end R-7 section? Someone has requested to cut my access there and - it was done.


----------



## OCC7N

sajunky said:


> 75Ohm was a standard for word clock in the professional audio equipment and TV installations.
> 
> 50Ohm was a standard in measuring equipment, amateur radio, military radar installations, etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explaination, but why not keep it to one type instead. It does not make sense to me. All highend brands in hifi is mostly 75Ohm. They dont mix it up


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## sajunky (Nov 28, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> Thanks for the explaination, but why not keep it to one type instead. It does not make sense to me. All highend brands in hifi is mostly 75Ohm. They dont mix it up


Major high-end audio brands responded very slow to the 10Mhz clock. I think most of them are still using word clock systems. If you connect these both, it won't work. So what is a benefit of using the same cabling system? This is my question. At least ordinary users will notice a difference and won't waste a time in connecting incompatible systems. I think it was a logical choice.


----------



## OCC7N

sajunky said:


> Major high-end audio brands responded very slow to the 10Mhz clock. I think most of them are still using word clock systems. If you connect these both, it won't work. So what is a benefit of using the same cabling system? This is my question. At least ordinary users will notice a difference and won't waste a time in connecting incompatible systems. I think it was a logical choice.


Can you recommend a great setup with R8HE mk2 + DI20HE. What should I tell magnahifi for the configuration?


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## Jake2 (Nov 28, 2022)

sajunky said:


> 75Ohm was a standard for word clock in the professional audio equipment and TV installations.
> 
> 50Ohm was a standard in measuring equipment, amateur radio, military radar installations, etc.
> 
> ...


Nice explanation and history thanks @sajunky.

On the topic of the criticality (or not) of impedance matching, reflections and their effect on jitter and considerations in using external clocks, over on the R26 thread I recently came across a fascinating 2021 white paper by John Swenson of Uptone Audio. Expect some of you may be familiar with it already as I found a couple older refs in two other forums but not in this or other related threads.

TL;DR - in the view of the paper author:

square wave super sensitive to reflections in cable/signal path but not to external sources of RF (etc) noise affecting signal amplitude (takeaway - precise impedance of cable and matching to components is critical, shielding from noise not so much);
sine wave - cables, at least short ones - not as sensitive to impedance mismatch reflections (no precision square wave-front to have its rise time messed up) but the integrity of its shape for timing purposes receiving circuit of the sine signal is likely more sensitive to RF noise/ in the amplitude axis so good shielding is critical.
Impedance mismatches require careful design and implementation to avoid at every point in the signal chain from oscillator to end load/DAC and can occur internally within a clock - there is no way to know whether a particular external clock design or instance has entirely avoided this. I guess an example of this may be use of 75ohm style BNCs rather than 50ohm, though it may be a designer like LHY can compensate through upstream circuitry to still deliver the desired characteristic impedance in the circuit(?).
Swenson's recommendation - if in doubt use sine wave clock signals as more forgiving of impedance mismatches within the cable and the clock and recipient DAC/DDC, but instead of spending on an expensively shielded or low reflection cable just use a specifically designed filter at the load end (eg DAC) to strip out any noise beyond 10mhz the cable has picked up to clean up the sine wave. The theory being a basic and potentially noisy cable can be used for sine as the filter will clean it up by getting rid of the noise outside the clock signal band.
The paper and its recommendation of going sine + filter prompted an Audiophilestyle forum group buy of the Mini-circuits filters. MC is a specialist RF cable/equipment manufacturer I linked in a previous post re their precision testing cables with v low internal reflection specs. AfterDark bought up all Mini-circuit's stock for the group-buy. I see the filters are still stocked by AD and are back in stock at Mini-circuits.

Has anyone here tried these filters?

I haven't tried the filters but am really intrigued. At USD40 they're not expensive so would give em a go but they're extortionately expensive to ship from either vendor to NZ. May get a mate returning from the States at Christmas to bring a couple back. Incidentally when I finally got around to AB'ing sine vs square from the OCK-1 to my R26 and/or with U18 using Gustard C2 cables I found sine sounded way better. No comparison. So applying John Swenson's logic, notwithstanding my attempt to use decent quality hopefully low reflection cables, there was likely still one or more impedance mismatches in the signal path from OCXO to R26/U18 PLL circuit.


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## sajunky (Nov 29, 2022)

Jake2 said:


> Has anyone here tried these filters?
> 
> I haven't tried the filters but am really intrigued.


Maybe it is a question in a wrong place. Your experience with R26 can be completely different. Kingwa preference to the square wave source reflect on tuning of the clock synthesiser. The output from the clock synthesiser drives all internal circuits, it should be evaluated how analogue filter (destroying square shape) influence output jitter. This technology consists of digital PLL (PLL coupled with clock dividers). If you are familar with PLL, it is an effective filter, it can be tuned to very high Q.

In other words, when you are using such filter, you are converting square wave source to a very rough sine wave. It shouldn't be used with a square wave source, IHMO.

I am actually more concern about other issue. Low frequency jitter is more important than high frequency, as a source is always weak in this area. I think we should focus on a low frequency jitter while these analogue filters are completely transparent to the acoustic frequencies, and placing inductive elements on a cable make it very sensitive to the environmental noise which carries a lot of power lines noise. This is a huge issue in this idea.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> 75Ohm was a standard for word clock in the professional audio equipment and TV installations.
> 
> 50Ohm was a standard in measuring equipment, amateur radio, military radar installations, etc.
> 
> When 10MHz clock was introduced, designers decided for 50Ohm cabling, I think it was in order to differentiate from the existing audio word clock systems. It makes sense, as these clock systems are functionally incompatible, i.e., word clock frequency depends on the current sampling rate, while 10MHz clock is fixed frequency and requires sophisticated clock synthesisers to work.



But as we see, it doesn't help at all but rather just adds confusion, since you can plug a 75 ohm cable into a 50 ohm socket and vice versa.



sajunky said:


> Audio GD has 75ohm output for a word clock, it is compatible with professional audio and 50Ohm inputs for 10MHz clock, it matches most of 10MHz sources. I don't see any deviation from a common practice.



The DI-20HE uses a 50 ohm clock output for WCLK. I was surprised to learn this but @FredA reminded me:

http://audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20HE/DI20HEEN_Use.htm

"CLK OUT ：
         Outputs 256fs main clock or LRCK/WCLK (3.3V LVDS @ 50 Ohm) . User-selectable "

So we're back to gratuitous incompatibility with long-standing standards from the 1980s.



sajunky said:


> [EDIT] Similar discussion is pending in parallel. Can anyone repost this in high-end R-7 section? Someone has requested to cut my access there and - it was done.



Outrageous!


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> The DI-20HE uses a 50 ohm clock output for WCLK. I was surprised to learn this but @FredA reminded me:
> 
> http://audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20HE/DI20HEEN_Use.htm
> 
> ...


You are right, now I remember we had a discussion before. It was your main objection, I can't disagree.

Regarding 10MHz clock input, it is following a growing standard which is 50Ohm, should stay as is.


----------



## Jake2

sajunky said:


> Maybe it is a question in a wrong place. Your experience with R26 can be completely different. Kingwa preference to the square wave source reflect on tuning of the clock synthesiser. The output from the clock synthesiser drives all internal circuits, it should be evaluated how analogue filter (destroying square shape) influence output jitter. This technology consists of digital PLL (PLL coupled with clock dividers). If you are familar with PLL, it is an effective filter, it can be tuned to very high Q.
> 
> In other words, when you are using such filter, you are converting square wave source to a very rough sine wave. It shouldn't be used with a square wave source, IHMO.
> 
> I am actually more concern about other issue. Low frequency jitter is more important than high frequency, as a source is always weak in this area. I think we should focus on a low frequency jitter while these analogue filters are completely transparent to the acoustic frequencies, and placing inductive elements on a cable make it very sensitive to the environmental noise which carries a lot of power lines noise. This is a huge issue in this idea.


Cheers sajunky. I defer to your greater knowledge here - I just find the whole area fascinating and am reading what I can to get a better mental model of the many variables in play. Your comments re PLL tuning, filter frequencies and inductance make clear that I'm still barely scratching the surface. Btw to clarify the filter is only being proposed with a sine wave output, not a square wave.

I posted this here as it has been one of the more sustained and friendly discussions around this topic (alas not the case on all threads). Felt his theories may help explain some of the varying results people get with clocks/clock cables. But perhaps the master clock thread is a better spot.

Cheers,
Jake


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## bodiebill2 (Nov 29, 2022)

sajunky said:


> Audio GD has 75ohm output for a word clock, it is compatible with professional audio and 50Ohm inputs for 10MHz clock, it matches most of 10MHz sources. I don't see any deviation from a common practice.


Very useful post, thanks!
Although the DI20HE WCLK output is standard 50 Ohm as confirmed by Kingwa and Magna Hifi. I had it converted to 75 Ohm.

P S Sorry, this was already mentioned by @gimmeheadroom above...


----------



## iFi audio

bodiebill2 said:


> Afterdark Trifecta Emperor Double Crown



Just googled that. Not having heard it I can't comment what that clock does, but it sure looks good all in carbon!


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## sajunky (Nov 29, 2022)

Jake2 said:


> Btw to clarify the filter is only being proposed with a sine wave output, not a square wave.
> 
> I posted this here as it has been one of the more sustained and friendly discussions around this topic (alas not the case on all threads). Felt his theories may help explain some of the varying results people get with clocks/clock cables. But perhaps the master clock thread is a better spot.


Yes, It is expected. I just mentioned it as most of people following Kingwa recommendation will purchase devices with square wave clock output. Users may be confused with this project, now they won't. Filters are not a right solution for a square wave output, it is plain and simple.

New ideas are emerging. While in this case I have a reservation even in the sine-wave output setup, but members and myself will be interested in your feedback, thanks in advance.

[EDIT] On a second thought, filter on the transmission line is a complete nonsense, including a sine-wave clock output. If you look at the input impedance of a narrow-band pass filter, it has a peak at the nominal frequency. While it can (?) be tuned to the transmission line value, all other frequencies will bounce, it should be surpressed as it happens on the pure resistance terminator.

A solution is to terminate a line correctly with a pure resistor, then buffer the signal and apply filter afterwards. It means an active buffer. The best place for such design is inside receiver.


----------



## DecentLevi

rsbrsvp said:


> I have reboot 10 times, reinstalled firmware 20 times and burnt in unit for over 1000 hours.  I have reinstalled Amanero driver many times as well.  I have not specifically burnt in using the spdif output functioning as all burn in has been with the HDMI output- and this may be the last possibility.    All input is USB from PC only...


Not sure if you've solved your problem yet, but here's my 2c with a similar problem that may help. I used to get a loud screeching sound from my DI20 (non-HE) when navigating within, or stopping DSD playback. After making the following cabling upgrades, the problem never came back. In the last few months I have added an iFi iDefender from the PC connected to a Fibbr Alpha USB-optical-USB cable, iFi iPurifier 3 (which goes into my existing Wyrd), then a new much thicker gauge short-run USB cable, (which goes to my existing iFi iPurifier 2), then out of the DI20 I'm using a much better quality RCA coax cable to my DAC. What I believe to be making the difference is thicker USB and digital RCA coax cables which happen to be made of pure sterling silver - these are cheap Chinese knockoffs of multi-thousand dollar cables that are actually made of said material, which you can read about here. In terms of the iFi products, these seem to be adding more depth, purity and detail but I believe it's these better conducting cables that are fixing any data transmission issues.


----------



## DecentLevi

Dandoudou said:


> My system is quite transparent. I use optical isolation, and all the gear is powered with good LPSs.
> At the beginning, my interpretation was similar to yours. I thought that with the DI-20HE the transparency of my system was even greater, and that was the reason for which I can hear an improvement when iGalvanic is placed between the Allo USBridge and the DI.
> But my interpretation changed after thinking to what happens in the system of @bodiebill2 . He told me that with his After Dark Rossana streamer + his DI-20HE, the sound was not as good as with his SOtM + DI-20HE, despite the fact that Rossana benefits from the Diretta protocol, and is configured as a Diretta Target. He concluded that the USB port of the SOtM was better implemented than the port of Rossanna. That's why I reached the conclusion that the galvanic isolation of the USB port of the DI-20HE was not that great.
> 
> ...


After some research and familiarizing myself with many obscure products mentioned, I was finally able to understand this post. It seems you're basically saying the DI20's USB input benefits from clean, regenerated USB input. That definitely agrees with my experience, being that I have a series of 5 USB purifiers/defenders/regenerators between my laptop of the DI-20, and I could hear an improvement every time, usually for the better depending on the placement. Additionally I found that thicker cables and premium conductors made a difference, as well as both specific ferrite clamps and copper foil tape together on the outside of the USB and RCA coax cables. 

Do you or anyone have an opinion on any difference between the iGalvanic and the Schiit Wyrd? Although not quite the same category type, jut curious about the sonic differences.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 2, 2022)

DecentLevi said:


> Do you or anyone have an opinion on any difference between the iGalvanic and the Schiit Wyrd? Although not quite the same category type, jut curious about the sonic differences.


How your output device name is changing (from Amanero digital....) in the Device Manager when inserting reclockers or isolators like iGalvanic? Report back, it is important for asynchronous data delivery. *DI-20 assumes that transfers are asynchronous*. When asynchronous transfer is broken, it may generate noise as there is no reclocking on USB port! Some other brands do always reclock, quality drop may be unnoticed.

USB cables are important and placement of a ferrite on the cable is critical. Also order of devices in the chain. By example iDefender, must be the first device in the chain, iFi recommends direct plugged to the USB port - not using the cable, and redirecting ground loops with external power supply is most effective. Extra devices are optional and order is not so clearly defined as many have a mixed function. Reclockers (if used, I really don't like these) or isolators should be placed closer to a DAC.

Now about chosing the right cable in the right place. As mentioned before, for devices with ground loop redirection function, the best is no cable between USB host. If using cable, it must be a thick one (thick wires, not the outher jacket) and *sans ferrite*. Having a multimeter, check resistance of the wires. Poor cable may measure 1Ohm on a distance 1meter. Power supply of the ground loops redirector should be plugged close to the computer's outlet.

Cable coming out of ground loop redirector may have a larger resistance, but should be well shielded and have a ferrite (either moulded or added a clamp). Closer to a DAC, better shielding and bigger ferrite. But ferrite choke do not block mains frequency noise, only HF. It is why ground loop redirection (if properly made) is the most critical part of installation.


----------



## Big man on the Fox

I have a question that may have been covered or considered by others.
Can I use a single output clock feeding into a DI20HE and connect a cable from DI20HE clock out into my R7HE mkII? Will this offer the same benefit as a clock with multiple outputs?


----------



## Big man on the Fox

*I have a question that may have been asked or considered by others:
Can I connect a single output clock into a DI20-HE and then connect a cable from DI20HE clock out into R7HE mkII? Will this give same positive results as using a clock with multiple outputs?*


----------



## sajunky (Dec 2, 2022)

Big man on the Fox said:


> Can I use a single output clock feeding into a DI20HE and connect a cable from DI20HE clock out into my R7HE mkII?


Simple answer, not. DI-20 output is word clock type (for older high-end devices), mk2 has a 10MHz clock input. The same as DI-20 input.

If your 10MHz clock device has only one port, you can daisy chain DI-20 to mk2 using t-connector but device in the middle must have internal terminator removed. In the minimal setup, just connect clock to DI-20. Not the same as synchronising both devices, but still giving positive results.


----------



## dougms3

Big man on the Fox said:


> *I have a question that may have been asked or considered by others:
> Can I connect a single output clock into a DI20-HE and then connect a cable from DI20HE clock out into R7HE mkII? Will this give same positive results as using a clock with multiple outputs?*


I was thinking the same thing but I don't think the clock output on the di20 can be used for that purpose.


----------



## FredA

sajunky said:


> Simple answer, not. DI-20 output is word clock type (for older high-end devices), mk2 has a 10MHz clock input. The same as DI-20 input.
> 
> If your 10MHz clock device has only one port, you can daisy chain DI-20 to mk2 using t-connector but device in the middle must have internal terminator removed. In the minimal setup, just connect clock to DI-20. Not the same as synchronising both devices, but still giving positive results.


Better save the clock for the r7he mkii.


----------



## DecentLevi

sajunky said:


> How your output device name is changing (from Amanero digital....) in the Device Manager when inserting reclockers or isolators like iGalvanic? Report back, it is important for asynchronous data delivery. *DI-20 assumes that transfers are asynchronous*. When asynchronous transfer is broken, it may generate noise as there is no reclocking on USB port! Some other brands do always reclock, quality drop may be unnoticed.
> 
> USB cables are important and placement of a ferrite on the cable is critical. Also order of devices in the chain. By example iDefender, must be the first device in the chain, iFi recommends direct plugged to the USB port - not using the cable, and redirecting ground loops with external power supply is most effective. Extra devices are optional and order is not so clearly defined as many have a mixed function. Reclockers (if used, I really don't like these) or isolators should be placed closer to a DAC.
> 
> ...


There is no problem in my system I was trying to solve, I was just curious if anyone knows a difference between the Wyrd and iGalvanic. I've basically done everything you mentioned as of some time ago. And my extra purifiers and reclockers did not change the codec, they were transparent. Maybe will go back over your post again sometime later.


----------



## sean perth

Hi All
Recently added an Audio GD DI-20 to my setup. There was a noticeable improvement and will run this as if for a few months but got me wondering what is next, limited understanding of word clocks so wondering what would be next as far as adding a word clock and where it goes in my setup 
Current setup 
Auralic Aries G1-audio GD-accurate D1000 DAC 
Thanks for advice 
Sean


----------



## DecentLevi (Dec 2, 2022)

I have something to share I consider extraordinary for the DI-20. Introducing mineral grounding boxes. After minimal setup effort, the sound I am getting from my DI20 is downright vivid, scrumptious and delectable! I'm taken even deeper into the scene and all signs of HF glare are gone, leaving me with an ultra analog lifelike sound with some of the deepest, best subterranean bass and robust dynamics I can remember hearing.







This is for the brave who are willing to delve into relatively uncharted and unexplainable territories, because - I kid you not - not only does this _un_powered box impact the sound (even though my DI20 is already connected to a multi-thousand $ power conditioner and thick aftermarket AC cable), but also nano liquid contact enhancer and rubber absorption feet underneath the box produce audible differences. Initially I tried this on my power conditioner and SS amp but these already seemed to have sufficient grounding/isolation, so clamping it on one of the spare SPDIF sockets of the DI20 is where it really made a difference for me.
I'm not the only one, feel free to read how I got here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aliexpress-cables.963919/post-17273980

Not wanting to derail too much around here, feel free to post on the above link if any queries - where they also happen to be going DIY.


----------



## FredA

DecentLevi said:


> I have something to share I consider extraordinary for the DI-20. Introducing mineral grounding boxes. After minimal setup effort, the sound I am getting from my DI20 is downright vivid, scrumptious and delectable! I'm taken even deeper into the scene and all signs of HF glare are gone, leaving me with an ultra analog lifelike sound with some of the deepest, best subterranean bass and robust dynamics I can remember hearing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. I use a grounding tube on an unused output's neutral on my di20he. This made a difference.


----------



## FredA

sean perth said:


> Hi All
> Recently added an Audio GD DI-20 to my setup. There was a noticeable improvement and will run this as if for a few months but got me wondering what is next, limited understanding of word clocks so wondering what would be next as far as adding a word clock and where it goes in my setup
> Current setup
> Auralic Aries G1-audio GD-accurate D1000 DAC
> ...


You need a 10Mhz master clock. Everyone is getting either the LHY OCK1 or LHY OCK2.


----------



## DecentLevi

Any impressions yet of the OCK2?


----------



## OCC7N

FredA said:


> You need a 10Mhz master clock. Everyone is getting either the LHY OCK1 or LHY OCK2.


Planning on buying the master clock together with DI20HE. Im curious to know what the real benefit is with OCK2 over the OCK1. Price vs performance


----------



## FredA

DecentLevi said:


> Any impressions yet of the OCK2?


Check the clock thread

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/master-clock-talk.228428/page-7


----------



## sean perth

FredA said:


> You need a 10Mhz master clock. Everyone is getting either the LHY OCK1 or LHY OCK2.


Hi given that I need the above
Where would it sit in my chain
Auralic Aries G1-audio GD DI-20 to accurate D1000 DAC


----------



## FredA

sean perth said:


> Hi given that I need the above
> Where would it sit in my chain
> Auralic Aries G1-audio GD DI-20 to accurate D1000 DAC


It would feed the clock signal to the di20. The results will depends on how much the di20 improves things in the first place. You can expect a similar gain with the clock.


----------



## sean perth

FredA said:


> It would feed the clock signal to the di20. The results will depends on how much the di20 improves things in the first place. You can expect a similar gain with the clock.


Hi
So my Auralic G1 has coax out, so would I run a cable from there to which input on the back of the OCK1 ?


----------



## Jandu (Dec 3, 2022)

sean perth said:


> Hi
> So my Auralic G1 has coax out, so would I run a cable from there to which input on the back of the OCK1 ?


Both your source (G1) and the clock (ock 1 or 2) connect to the Di20, the Di20 connects to your DAC. If your DAC accepts clock signal, the same clock (ock 1 or 2) connects to the DAC as well.


----------



## bodiebill2 (Dec 4, 2022)

sean perth said:


> Hi
> So my Auralic G1 has coax out, so would I run a cable from there to which input on the back of the OCK1 ?



As far as I know, the Auralic G1 has no 10 MHz clock input? This would be a BNC connector, but not the spdif type meant for an audio signal.


----------



## sean perth

Hi
No it doesn’t have BNC, so how would I connect?


----------



## bodiebill2

sean perth said:


> Hi
> No it doesn’t have BNC, so how would I connect?


You cannot connect a clock to the G1. Devices with clock input are rather exceptions. I only know a few examples of streamers that have them, such as the special edition of SOtM sMS-200 neo ultra and as an option on Afterdark Rossana.


----------



## sean perth

bodiebill2 said:


> You cannot connect a clock to the G1. Devices with clock input are rather exceptions. I only know a few examples of streamers that have them, such as the special edition of SOtM sMS-200 neo ultra and as an option on Afterdark Rossana.


So does that mean I cannot connect a clock at all within my system? Sorry for all the newbie questions 😂


----------



## FredA (Dec 4, 2022)

sean perth said:


> So does that mean I cannot connect a clock at all within my system? Sorry for all the newbie questions 😂


The di20 can receive a clock signal, it's the only component that has this capacity in your system. You need a 50-ohm cable and a clock. Either of the LHY clocks (ock2 and ock1) would do.


----------



## sean perth

FredA said:


> The di20 can receive a clock signal, it's the only component that has this capacity in your system. You need a 50-ohm cable and a clock. Either if the LHY clocks (ock2 and ock1) would do.


So would it fit after my Di20 and before my DAC or does it just plug into the Di20 and does it’s magic before sending signal to my DAC


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sean perth said:


> So would it fit after my Di20 and before my DAC or does it just plug into the Di20 and does it’s magic before sending signal to my DAC


You plug the 10 MHz 50 ohm clock into the jack that says INPUT 10 MHz and then the DI-20 has a better clocking source than without it. It improves all the signals coming out of the DI-20 over the various outputs.


----------



## sean perth

Argh ok then my I2s out to my DAC


----------



## Big man on the Fox

DACLadder said:


> Give the DI about two weeks to start showing what it is consistently capable.  Some variation in sound in first 0 -12 days.  I've only had power apply 24/7 for about 10 days (240 hrs).  And running internal clocks until I can get better external OCXO power supply.


----------



## Big man on the Fox

I have been running successfully into new Audio GD R7 HE mkII dac for 5 weeks using both spdif and usb On an IFi ZenStream . I have IFi power x 9v Power supply.
Have had no issues with wifi or direct internet connection to dac.Have Xfinity with speeds as high as 150 mbs. Running 2012 MacMini. With Roon.
Problems started yesterday when connecting to new Audio GD DI 20-HE, which is ddc. Running Ethernet into ZenStream and usb into DI 20-HE. Now ZenStream is intermittently disconnecting from Roon end point. I have tried different Ethernet cables from switch. Moved ZenStream to different location. Sometimes it looses hand shake with Roon while still connected to Ethernet or loses connection with Ethernet and then comes back. Tried powering down devices. I’m running latest non- beta version of firmware for ZenStream.
I have also observed that when I disconnect usb cable from DI-20, then Roon changes ZenStream from usb to SPDIF. If I then connect usb cable back, it reverts back to usb (Combo384 Amanero). I thought only way to change was to go into ZenStream settings.
i posted this issue on Head-Fi. :”IFi ZenStrea: Setup,…” and there was a comment that this may be a know issue with Audio GD.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 9, 2022)

Big man on the Fox said:


> I have been running successfully into new Audio GD R7 HE mkII dac for 5 weeks using both spdif and usb On an IFi ZenStream . I have IFi power x 9v Power supply.
> Have had no issues with wifi or direct internet connection to dac.Have Xfinity with speeds as high as 150 mbs. Running 2012 MacMini. With Roon.
> Problems started yesterday when connecting to new Audio GD DI 20-HE, which is ddc. Running Ethernet into ZenStream and usb into DI 20-HE. Now ZenStream is intermittently disconnecting from Roon end point. I have tried different Ethernet cables from switch. Moved ZenStream to different location. Sometimes it looses hand shake with Roon while still connected to Ethernet or loses connection with Ethernet and then comes back. Tried powering down devices. I’m running latest non- beta version of firmware for ZenStream.
> I have also observed that when I disconnect usb cable from DI-20, then Roon changes ZenStream from usb to SPDIF. If I then connect usb cable back, it reverts back to usb (Combo384 Amanero). I thought only way to change was to go into ZenStream settings.
> i posted this issue on Head-Fi. :”IFi ZenStrea: Setup,…” and there was a comment that this may be a know issue with Audio GD.


I wonder, as both Audio GD devices which use the same Amanero Combo 384, how it can be that only one device gives a problem? It must be something different than compatibility issue.

How power connections did change after adding DDC? Are these 3 devices (streamer, DDC and DAC still plugged to the same power extension?

You are only reporting problem on the USB connection. Do the same losing Roon handshake happen when USB cable is disconnected and DDC is connected by coax?

Disconnect Ethernet cable and test whether the same happen on the built-in WiFi.

To eliminate USB port fault on a DDC, connect your MAC (or any laptop) directly to the DDC and test playback on local files.


----------



## OCC7N

Big man on the Fox said:


> I have been running successfully into new Audio GD R7 HE mkII dac for 5 weeks using both spdif and usb On an IFi ZenStream . I have IFi power x 9v Power supply.
> Have had no issues with wifi or direct internet connection to dac.Have Xfinity with speeds as high as 150 mbs. Running 2012 MacMini. With Roon.
> Problems started yesterday when connecting to new Audio GD DI 20-HE, which is ddc. Running Ethernet into ZenStream and usb into DI 20-HE. Now ZenStream is intermittently disconnecting from Roon end point. I have tried different Ethernet cables from switch. Moved ZenStream to different location. Sometimes it looses hand shake with Roon while still connected to Ethernet or loses connection with Ethernet and then comes back. Tried powering down devices. I’m running latest non- beta version of firmware for ZenStream.
> I have also observed that when I disconnect usb cable from DI-20, then Roon changes ZenStream from usb to SPDIF. If I then connect usb cable back, it reverts back to usb (Combo384 Amanero). I thought only way to change was to go into ZenStream settings.
> i posted this issue on Head-Fi. :”IFi ZenStrea: Setup,…” and there was a comment that this may be a know issue with Audio GD.


Have you tried spdif/coax out of zen into di20?


----------



## Vangelo

I am using ZS into Di20. Only USB works reliably.
With SPDIF, all appears to work until you stop or pause the music. Then it emits a loud squeal.

I did mention this earlier in the thread and was told this is because when you stop/pause the ZS, the clock output also stops, and the Di20 freezes.


----------



## OCC7N

Vangelo said:


> I am using ZS into Di20. Only USB works reliably.
> With SPDIF, all appears to work until you stop or pause the music. Then it emits a loud squeal.
> 
> I did mention this earlier in the thread and was told this is because when you stop/pause the ZS, the clock output also stops, and the Di20 freezes.


should not be an excuse. It should work. the clock should not ruin the experience.

What DAC is ZS?


----------



## Giru

I heard the DI-20HE last week and we were comparing it to the Denafrips Gaia; both feeding a T1 DE. 

The Gaia is good but the DI20 with the Cybershaft OCXO was something else entirely. Woah! Huugeee difference. The instruments were almost floating in the air on the DI20 and CS combo. However without the clock the DI20-HE was okay. Infact I dunno if I'll be able to tell the HE and non HE side by side.

I'm considering the DI20 strongly. Thinking of getting the non HE version and getting a very good external clock to go with it.


----------



## sajunky

Giru said:


> I'm considering the DI20 strongly. Thinking of getting the non HE version and getting a very good external clock to go with it.


Problem is that there is no reports of DI-20 (sans HE) with external clock. All guys who use external clocks don't bother with non-HE version.


----------



## Giru

sajunky said:


> Problem is that there is no reports of DI-20 (sans HE) with external clock. All guys who use external clocks don't bother with non-HE version.


Why so? Apart from the power supply, both the HE and the non-HE version seem to have the same DDC circuitry, including the inputs and outputs. I'll mail Kingwa regarding this, maybe he can clarify in detail.

Regardless, for me the HE version is redundant as I'll be getting a AC regenerator for my digital units anyway (PC+DDC+Clock+DAC). The money saved will be directed towards getting a better clock.


----------



## sajunky

Giru said:


> Why so? Apart from the power supply, both the HE and the non-HE version seem to have the same DDC circuitry, including the inputs and outputs. I'll mail Kingwa regarding this, maybe he can clarify in detail.


You don't need to mail Kingwa, it was confirmed here many times. A difference is only in regenerative power supply.


----------



## Giru

sajunky said:


> You don't need to mail Kingwa, it was confirmed here many times. A difference is only in regenerative power supply.


Indeed, I had read as much. I thought maybe the specs changed or something was added to the HE version. You never know with these things nowdays😅. Although in all fairness, Audio-GD is atleast forthcoming about changes in internals with model name changes (v1, v2, 2019, 2021 etc), unlike some other brands.

Anyway, it's set then; will be getting the non HE. It would be the HE if I hadn't ordered the power plant tho.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> should not be an excuse. It should work. the clock should not ruin the experience.
> 
> What DAC is ZS?



I think he means ifi zen stream.


----------



## Big man on the Fox

sajunky said:


> I wonder, as both Audio GD devices which use the same Amanero Combo 384, how it can be that only one device gives a problem? It must be something different than compatibility issue.
> 
> How power connections did change after adding DDC? Are these 3 devices (streamer, DDC and DAC still plugged to the same power extension?
> 
> ...


Not sure where the USB issues are. It seems that IFi streamer has issues when connected to 2 Amanero Combo 384 devices. Perhaps it’s because with Mac it’s controlled by Audio MIDI?
 I have now put all 3 devices into same power extension.
Results are the same with WiFi.
I’m now running Ethernet out of Eero wifi mesh device. Wondering if this is a path with less noise? Prior to getting 2 Audio-gd devices I was feeding IFi streamer with EtherREGEN. Now I’m suspecting that this may not be necessary (as I believe others have reported).


sajunky said:


> I wonder, as both Audio GD devices which use the same Amanero Combo 384, how it can be that only one device gives a problem? It must be something different than compatibility issue.
> 
> How power connections did change after adding DDC? Are these 3 devices (streamer, DDC and DAC still plugged to the same power extension?
> 
> ...


----------



## Big man on the Fox

Big man on the Fox said:


> Not sure where the USB issues are. It seems that IFi streamer has issues when connected to 2 Amanero Combo 384 devices. Perhaps it’s because with Mac it’s controlled by Audio MIDI?
> I have now put all 3 devices into same power extension.
> Results are the same with WiFi.
> I’m now running Ethernet out of Eero wifi mesh device. Wondering if this is a path with less noise? Prior to getting 2 Audio-gd devices I was feeding IFi streamer with EtherREGEN. Now I’m suspecting that this may not be necessary (as I believe others have reported).


All is running absolutely perfectly! I can use either spdif or USB, which I am now using. The only change I can think of which gave me such a positive outcome, is putting all 3 devices on same power extension. A big THANK YOU!
Sound is transcendent. I moved my single output AfterDark clock from dac to ddc. Anxiously awaiting OCK-2 !


----------



## sajunky

Big man on the Fox said:


> All is running absolutely perfectly! I can use either spdif or USB, which I am now using. The only change I can think of which gave me such a positive outcome, is putting all 3 devices on same power extension. A big THANK YOU!


I am delighted!


----------



## Mr BubbaHyde

Big man on the Fox said:


> All is running absolutely perfectly! I can use either spdif or USB, which I am now using. The only change I can think of which gave me such a positive outcome, is putting all 3 devices on same power extension. A big THANK YOU!
> Sound is transcendent. I moved my single output AfterDark clock from dac to ddc. Anxiously awaiting OCK-2 !


I'm so glad to hear you've got it going!

If you wouldn't mind and have the time could you make a small post back in the ZS thread, or possibly send me a PM of what you did so we can share with others how to solve the issues. I do not have the Audio GD only a Singxer SU-2 so I'm not much help, but I follow this thread with great interest as it seems like a great piece of gear!

Thanks!

Cheers!!


----------



## Mr Brett

Have had my LHY OCK-1 running for many weeks into my Audio GD DI-20HE.
Received my new (to me) Gustard A22 Dac, with Coherent Systems mods (UK), and an SR Purple fuse.
Have also received the Gustard C2 cable.

My back end is not up and running, so used my Triad Audio L3 into my Grado RS1 headphones.
Listened last night. Wow. What a change in my music.
Love it when you hear minute details you've never heard before.

Next task is to send the LHY OCK-1 to Coherent Systems.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Hey guys,

In a setup where we're using a DDC, is there any technical basis for not connecting DAC(s) via USB?  Is there a concern for noise leakage over an unused USB connection?


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> In a setup where we're using a DDC, is there any technical basis for not connecting DAC(s) via USB?  Is there a concern for noise leakage over an unused USB connection?


There is always a concern of not adding extra noise from additional devices, but it can be a (rare) case when such device dissipate radiation or redirect energy of the compound set DDC-DAC we are trying to protect, sinking current to a different hole where is less harmful, etc. Like these mysterious passive "radiation catching" wood boxes, seen few posts before. You can find a place for a box where radiation from various sources get compensated.


----------



## Jandu

gimmeheadroom said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> In a setup where we're using a DDC, is there any technical basis for not connecting DAC(s) via USB?  Is there a concern for noise leakage over an unused USB connection?


Not sure, the following quotes from AGD, under its pre amp manual:
 The working theory :  Without the idle input short circuit ,if the input 5 and input 4 had connect two extra DACs,  while users select the either input 5 and input 4 , the another input signal will fire through the circuits and mix  into the using signal, even though this signal is  weak  but still can degrade on the sound quality.


----------



## Mr Brett (Dec 13, 2022)

LHY OCK-1 sent today to Coherent Systems.
Be good to hear their impressions, and suggested upgrades for it.
He has an LHY OCK-2 coming as well, so will be able to do a comparison.

Will send my Audio GD DI-20he at the end of December for some of their magic.
Postage to and fro isn't cheap, but in my opinion well worth it.
The DI-20he is a 'final purchase' item for me.


----------



## OCC7N (Dec 12, 2022)

Mr Brett said:


> LHY OCK-1 sent today to Tony at Coherent Systems.
> Be good to hear his impressions, and suggested upgrades for it.
> He has an LHY OCK-2 coming as well, so will be able to do a comparison.
> 
> ...


What is he finna do about dat DI20He?


----------



## Mr Brett (Dec 13, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> What is he finna do about dat DI20He?


I haven't asked him what exactly he will do, but he has upgraded quite a few.

I've had three Dacs and a power supply from him, so know how good his work is.


----------



## OCC7N

Mr Brett said:


> I haven't asked him what exactly he will do, but he has upgraded quite a few.
> Total cost around £350.
> 
> I've had three Dacs and a power supply from him, so know how good his work is.


Links?


----------



## OCC7N

…anyways when it comes to Kingwas dacs, amp and ddc, ofcourse there will be some upgrades/preference etc.

I just want stock, so I know what sound Kingwas was aiming for. I want to hear that hard work, and let my system go for atleast 1000hours(3months) before I do anything.

I somehow chose the 75Ohm impedance version. I am glad I did(@gimmeheadroom thanks!🙌), because I will maybe upgrade my Pro Audio/DAW setup with a master clock and have the audio-gd setup as reference…


----------



## Mr Brett

OCC7N said:


> Links?


https://coherent-systems.co.uk/


----------



## Mr Brett

Listening without the LHY OCK-1, there's something missing...


----------



## sajunky

OCC7N said:


> I just want stock, so I know what sound Kingwas was aiming for. I want to hear that hard work, and let my system go for atleast 1000hours(3months) before I do anything.


Absolutely. And I don't purchase goods from companies who team up with third-parties to create their signature edition versions of a product and sell at a premium price. Mr Tony can make his own DDC.


----------



## OCC7N

Mr Brett said:


> Listening without the LHY OCK-1, there's something missing...


So you can hear a clear difference to the better when OCK1 is connected?


----------



## Mr Brett

I listened quite a few times to the DI-20HE switching between the internal clock and LHY Ock-1.
I thought I heard a difference, but then did I?
Wasn't completely sure. 

Last night, the music was magical.
Tonight, not quite as much.
The only difference is no Gustard C2 and no LHY Ock-1.


----------



## OCC7N

Mr Brett said:


> I listened quite a few times to the DI-20HE switching between the internal clock and LHY Ock-1.
> I thought I heard a difference, but then did I?
> Wasn't completely sure.
> 
> ...


interesting. Do you use sine or square from OCK1?


----------



## Mr Brett (Dec 13, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> …anyways when it comes to Kingwa's dacs, amp and ddc, of course there will be some upgrades/preference etc.
> 
> I just want stock, so I know what sound Kingwa was aiming for. I want to hear that hard work, and let my system go for at least 1000hours (3months) before I do anything.



I've had the DI-20HE for three months. And really like it.
In my view no difference adding a few mods to make it sound even better, to adding a fuse or power cable to a system.
(Although no replaceable fuse in the DI-20he)


----------



## Mr Brett

OCC7N said:


> interesting. Do you use sine or square from OCK1?



Kingwa suggested square wave? I think.


----------



## bodiebill2

Mr Brett said:


> I've had the DI-20HE for three months. And really like it.
> In my view no difference adding a few mods to make it sound even better, to adding a fuse or power cable to a system.


I never discovered a fuse in the DI20HE. Is there one?


----------



## Mr Brett

bodiebill2 said:


> I never discovered a fuse in the DI20HE. Is there one?


No. Sorry. Used that as an example in a system.


----------



## Mr Brett

What I want is for my system to sound the best it can, within my parameters.

Not ripping anyone off.
Not putting down anyone's design.
Just hoping to improve it a little.


----------



## sajunky

Mr Brett said:


> I've had the DI-20HE for three months. And really like it.
> In my view no difference adding a few mods to make it sound even better, to adding a fuse or power cable to a system.


What??? 


Mr Brett said:


> (Although no fuse in the DI-20he)


There is a fuse. Soldered permanently and moulded in cabling. So it is impossible to improve things that sounds already the best!


BTW, it is not a fuse that improve sound, but a contact. With a better fuse you get beter contact for $200 with a poor quality fuse holder.


----------



## OCC7N

Mr Brett said:


> Kingwa suggested square wave? I think.





Mr Brett said:


> What I want is for my system to sound the best it can, within my parameters.
> 
> Not ripping anyone off.
> Not putting down anyone's design.
> Just hoping to improve it a little.


Easy easy😂🙌

Everybody is different. I just said I did not wanted to make any changes before I heard Kingwas edition(atleast 1000Hours). If I wanted to do some custimzation, I would definitly send it to Magnahifi(silver upgrade), because I trust them 100%. 

Nothing wrong with tweaks🙌 

I read that square should be best. But interested in both now.


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 13, 2022)

Today @roberto2 and his friend, Michel, came to my home to compare the OCK-1 with the OCK-2. We had the impression that both clocks sound good, but did not compare a lot between them. Instead, we made some comparisons between the sound of the LAN input of the Gustard R26, and its sound with the Audio-GD DI-20HE.

*TEST 1 *
We compared the two following setups:

1/
Mac (Roon > 384 kHz upsample) > RAAT > RBi4 Host (GentooPlayer, Diretta Host) > Diretta protocol over fiber > EtherREGEN *(+ 10 mHz*) > Cat.7 > Allo USBridge Sig (GentooPlayer, Diretta Target) > USB > iFi iGalvanic 3 > USB > Audio-GD DI-20HE (*+ 10 mHz*) > I2S > Gustard R26

2/
Mac (Roon > 768 kHz upsample) > RAAT over fiber > EtherREGEN (*+ 10 mHz*) > Cat.7 > Gustard R26 (*+ 10 mHz*)

In each of these setups, two devices were connected to the 10 mHz clock.
We all considered that the sound of setup with the LAN input was more resolving, and much more impressive. It’s surprising how good this input of the R26 sounds.

*TEST 2 *
Then, we made a new comparison, but this time we connected three devices of the setup of the DI-20HE to the 10 mHz clock:

1/
Mac (Roon > 384 kHz upsample) > RAAT > RBi4 Host (GentooPlayer, Diretta Host) > Diretta protocol over fiber > EtherREGEN (*+ 10 mHz*) > Cat.7 > Allo USBridge Sig (GentooPlayer, Diretta Target) > USB > iFi iGalvanic 3 > USB > Audio-GD DI-20HE (*+ 10 mHz*) > I2S > Gustard R26 *(+ 10 mHz*)

2/
Mac (Roon > 768 kHz upsample) > RAAT over fiber > EtherREGEN (*+ 10 mHz*) > Cat.7 > Gustard R26 (*+ 10 mHz*)

This time, we all considered that the two setups sound as good, though their sound was different. The setup with the LAN input of the R26 was more resolving. But the setup with the DI-20HE was more relaxing, it had an Audio-GD kind of sound.

After that, we listened to my old Pegasus DAC with the setup of the DI-20HE. And its sound was also very good. It did not disappoint in comparison to the R26.

@roberto2 kindly lent me his OCK-2 and his BNC cables to compare with my OCK-1.
I will take the time to do it, and I will report if I make interesting findings.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

OCC7N said:


> I read that square should be best. But interested in both now.


Square wave is better from an engineering perspective, it's easier to lock on the sharp(er) edges. What you like the sound of might have nothing to do with what's technically better


----------



## sajunky (Dec 13, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> *TEST 1 *
> We compared the two following setups:
> 
> 1/
> Mac (Roon > 384 kHz upsample) > RAAT > RBi4 Host (GentooPlayer, Diretta Host) > Diretta protocol over fiber > EtherREGEN *(+ 10 mHz*) > Cat.7 > Allo USBridge Sig (GentooPlayer, Diretta Target) > USB > iFi iGalvanic 3 > USB > Audio-GD DI-20HE (*+ 10 mHz*) > I2S > Gustard R26


EtherREGEN with 10MHz clock?

It doesn't make sense. It is like synchronising clock on the USB host. Since introducing USB asynchronous transfers, nobody do it. The same on Ethernet with TCP protocol. More importantly, this 10MHz clock cable defeats purpose of two stages of galvanic isolation at once: on the iFi iGalvanic device and DI-20HE USB port isolation. Unless I miss something, it is nonsense.

Can you repeat tests with this coax cable unplugged?

I can be wrong on the need of synchronising Ethernet source device with audio clock, as transfer can be using UDP instead of TCP protocol, but defeating  galvanic isolation is not good.


----------



## Jake2 (Dec 13, 2022)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Square wave is better from an engineering perspective, it's easier to lock on the sharp(er) edges. What you like the sound of might have nothing to do with what's technically better


Better in every scenario, regardless of impedance mismatches and reflections in the signal path. Very much doubt it. As, it appears, does Cybershaft with their top master clock. Anyway it's a moot point, I shall stick with what sounds clearly better to my ears (which is sine, as I posted over in the R26 thread - sorry, losing track!)


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

sajunky said:


> EtherREGEN with 10MHz clock?
> 
> It doesn't make sense. It is like synchronising clock on the USB host. Since introducing USB asynchronous transfers, nobody do it. The same on Ethernet with TCP protocol. More importantly, this 10MHz clock cable defeats purpose of two stages of galvanic isolation at once: on the iFi iGalvanic device and DI-20HE USB port isolation. *Unless I miss something, it is nonsense.*
> 
> ...


Theories are worthless, only facts counts.
The clock improves the sound when it is connected to EtherREGEN, and that's the reason for which the EtherREGEN has a 10 mHz input. Many EtherREGEN users associate a 10 mHz clock to it, look at this 76 pages thread:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...-for-your-etherregen/page/75/#comment-1221802

Regarding the galvanic isolation, I don't understand what it has to do with the clock.
Actually, it's very simple. During the playback, I can switch with the clock selector between the external clock and the internal clock of the DI-20, and the difference is audible in real time. I did it many times, and in such A/B comparison, the sound of the DI-20 with its internal clock is flat in comparison.


----------



## Mr Brett (Dec 13, 2022)

I struggle with people who state opinion as fact. BTW.

My experience and therefore my opinion through five iterations is that fuses do make a difference. This is to do with the fuse composition, not the contact it makes.


----------



## Giru

Dandoudou said:


> Today @roberto2 and his friend, Michel, came to my home to compare the OCK-1 with the OCK-2. We had the impression that both clocks sound good, but did not compare a lot between them. Instead, we made some comparisons between the sound of the LAN input of the Gustard R26, and its sound with the Audio-GD DI-20HE.
> 
> *TEST 1 *
> We compared the two following setups:
> ...



I'm in complete favour of using an external clock with the Ether. I've heard the difference myself. However my qualms are about using the ifi iGalvanic 3. Both the DI20 and the DI20 HE have ultra high speed isolation on their USB input. I'm not saying that the iGalvanic is bad but I wonder how the chain would behave with two isolators in series🤔. FWIW, Kingwa does say not to do it:

http://audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN.htm

Anyway, I did have a chance to listen to the R26 extensively like a week ago and I was not very impressed (the setup was on LAN, no external clock). Not sure whether substantial gains can made by adding the DI20 to it.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jake2 said:


> Better in every scenario, regardless of impedance mismatches and reflections in the signal path. Very much doubt it. As, it appears, does Cybershaft with their top master clock. Anyway it's a moot point, I shall stick with what sounds clearly better to my ears (which is sine, as I posted over in the R26 thread - sorry, losing track!)



This is an Audio-gd thread. Kingwa recommends square wave. I believe @FredA said Kingwa uses the REF10 as his reference clock. Mutec uses square wave, it's a pro audio company that sells to studio and broadcast customers.

After having products from both of those companies, I trust what Kingwa and Chris have to say and their design choices.

Nobody was telling you what to use. I don't find your opinion compelling either.


----------



## Jake2

gimmeheadroom said:


> This is an Audio-gd thread. Kingwa recommends square wave. I believe @FredA said Kingwa uses the REF10 as his reference clock. Mutec uses square wave, it's a pro audio company that sells to studio and broadcast customers.
> 
> After having products from both of those companies, I trust what Kingwa and Chris have to say and their design choices.
> 
> Nobody was telling you what to use. I don't find your opinion compelling either.


Fair enough Dude, i must confess my response conflated posts in two threads so was stronger than I'd I intended. Apologies.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Jake2 said:


> Apologies.



My apologies as well


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

Giru said:


> I'm in complete favour of using an external clock with the Ether. I've heard the difference myself. However my qualms are about using the ifi iGalvanic 3. Both the DI20 and the DI20 HE have ultra high speed isolation on their USB input. I'm not saying that the iGalvanic is bad but I wonder how the chain would behave with two isolators in series🤔. FWIW, Kingwa does say not to do it:
> 
> http://audio-gd.com/R2R/DI20/DI20EN.htm
> 
> Anyway, I did have a chance to listen to the R26 extensively like a week ago and I was not very impressed (the setup was on LAN, no external clock). Not sure whether substantial gains can made by adding the DI20 to it.


A few weeks ago, I posted on this thread a detailed report about a serial of tests that I conducted on this issue.
Surprisingly, the galvanic isolation of the USB port of the DI-20 is not that great, and iGalvanic 3 does improve the sound when it is placed between the DDC and the streamer.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/page-290#post-17258892


----------



## Giru

Dandoudou said:


> A few weeks ago, I posted on this thread a detailed report about a serial of tests that I conducted on this issue.
> Surprisingly, the galvanic isolation of the USB port of the DI-20 is not that great, and iGalvanic 3 does improve the sound when it is placed between the DDC and the streamer.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/page-290#post-17258892


Hmmmm. Interesting. I do have access to the iGalvanic 3. I'll see if I can test it out once I get my di20he.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 14, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> A few weeks ago, I posted on this thread a detailed report about a serial of tests that I conducted on this issue.
> Surprisingly, the galvanic isolation of the USB port of the DI-20 is not that great, and iGalvanic 3 does improve the sound when it is placed between the DDC and the streamer.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/page-290#post-17258892


If you defeat galvanic isolators by plugging 10MHz clock to the EtherREGEN, then none of your comments on the efficiency remain valid anymore.


----------



## Dandoudou

sajunky said:


> If you defeat galvanic isolators by plugging 10MHz clock to the EtherREGEN, then none of your comments on the efficiency remain valid anymore.


We were three experimented audiophiles to listen to the setup yesterday. None was hearing impaired, and we agreed about what we were hearing. 

And I don't see the relation between EtherREGEN that is placed before the streamer and performs both as a switch and as a media converter, and the galvanic isolation that is placed between the streamer and the DDC.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 14, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> Theories are worthless, only facts counts.
> The clock improves the sound when it is connected to EtherREGEN, and that's the reason for which the EtherREGEN has a 10 mHz input. Many EtherREGEN users associate a 10 mHz clock to it, look at this 76 pages thread:
> 
> https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...-for-your-etherregen/page/75/#comment-1221802
> ...


The same external clock device that you have plugged into DDC?

If the answer is positive, then you are defeating galvanic isolation both on iGalvanic and DI-20HE devices. It was a key point of my first response. Without galvanic isolation on USB it is obvious that Gustard sounds better on network connection than through DDC with galvanic isolators not working properly. I do not negate your impressions and your friends, just pointing why it happen.

If the answer is negative, it looks like an utter and complette mental diarrhea feeded by the "cleaner bits" marketing masters theories. Sorry for that comment, hoping is not a case. The first makes a sense, but is fatally flawed. This case is a complete nonsense.

It is not important how you select a clock source as long a coax cable from the 10MHz clock device is plugged into the EtherREGEN switch. THIS makes a problem. I asked you to unplug this cable and repeat tests.


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

sajunky said:


> The same external clock device that you have plugged into DDC?
> 
> If the answer is positive, then you are defeating galvanic isolation both on iGalvanic and DI-20HE devices. It was a key point of my first response. Without galvanic isolation on USB it is obvious that Gustard sounds better on network connection than through DDC with galvanic isolators not working properly. I do not negate your impressions and your friends, just pointing why it happen.
> 
> ...


The comparison is between:
1. EtherREGEN > R26 (RJ45)
2. EtherREGEN > Allo USB Bridge Sig > iGalvanic 3 > DI-20HE > R26 (I2S)

Regarding the LAN input of the R26, many users on the thread of this DAC report that they get a better sound with it than with the U18. (Look at this  post for instance: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gus...ng-music-bridge.963630/page-167#post-17295055 ).
The DI-20HE is a better DDC than the U18, and yet, I would say that it's in parity with the LAN input of the R26. We were really surprised to reach this conclusion yesterday.
The sound with the LAN input is somehow more impressive, because the resolution is greater. With the DI-20HE the sound is smoother. One may prefer one or the other, depending on his taste or the music to which he listens.


I just tried again setup 2, with the OCK-2 clock connected to all the devices except the streamer that does not have a 10 mHz input.
The galvanic isolation performs well, because when iGalvanic is placed between the streamer and the DDC, the sound is much more ample, and with a greater relief. It's not a subtle difference at all.
I reported more in detail about it, when I tested the setup with Pegasus, and without an external clock:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-gd-di-20.918123/page-290#post-17258892

I also compared again the internal clock of EtherREGEN to the external clock, as you asked me. The sound is better with the external clock. It is slightly more dynamic and slightly more resolving.


----------



## sajunky

The same 10MHz clock device as connected to DI-20HE? You didn't answer this question.


Dandoudou said:


> I also compared again the internal clock of EtherREGEN to the external clock, as you asked me. The sound is better with the external clock. It is slightly more dynamic and slightly more resolving.


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

sajunky said:


> The same 10MHz clock device as connected to DI-20HE? You didn't answer this question.


I answered to your question. I said that the OCK-2 clock is connected to all the devices of the setup, except the streamer. 

And it's easy to compare the internal and the external clock of the DI-20. When I switch between them on the fly during the playback with the clock selector of the DI, the sound with the internal clock is flat in comparison.


----------



## sajunky (Dec 14, 2022)

Dandoudou said:


> I answered to your question. I said that the OCK-2 clock is connected to all the devices of the setup, except the streamer.
> 
> And it's easy to compare the internal and the external clock of the DI-20. When I switch between them on the fly during the playback with the clock selector of the DI, the sound with the internal clock is flat in comparison.


I understand wery well how you switch between internal clock and external.

I don't understand why you don't want repeat tests *with 10MHz clock device not connected to the EtherREGEN switch*. I repeatedly advised to not make such connection, as it defeats all ground loop isolators placed on the USB port.

This particular connection affects all configurations with use of 10MHz external clock:
- Gustard DAC using USB port directly
- DI-20HE on USB
- any other DDC on USB

It also affect, but to the lesser extend configuration where Gustard is using Ethernet port. It is why is your conclusion how good is Gustard's Ethernet implementation. This is a comment you made, concluded on wrong merits.


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

sajunky said:


> I don't understand why you don't want repeat tests *with 10MHz clock device not connected to the EtherREGEN switch*. I repeatedly advised to not make such connection, as it defeats all ground loop isolators placed on the USB port.


There's no risk of ground loops, because all my audio devices are connected to the same electrical strip that is connected to the same outlet in the hall. For this reason, all the audio devices are connected to the same ground.
If it wasn't the case, I would not use Cat.7 cables in the setup, because these cables establish a connection between the ground of the devices to which they are connected.
In addition, all the audio devices are isolated  by fiber from the grounding of the other devices of the LAN.

In an earlier post, I told you already that I did disconnect EtherREGEN from the external clock, as you asked me to do, and I compared then between the sound with its internal clock and with the external clock. With the external clock, the sound is a bit more dynamic and more resolving.


----------



## sajunky

Dandoudou said:


> If it wasn't the case, I would not use Cat.7 cables in the setup, because these cables establish a connection between the ground of the devices to which they are connected.


Correct logic. However it comes to the questions:

1. Why you have a need for iGalvanic, it is inconsistent with the above statement.

2. Why you say that USB isolation on DI-20HE is inferior, so you need iGalvanic in series. It is also inconsistent.

I know that galvanic isolation is not perfect, but defeating it doesn't make sense.

I think we can't find a right answer having no physical access to your site. But something is wrong, no doubt.


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

sajunky said:


> Correct logic. However it comes to the questions:
> 
> 1. Why you have a need for iGalvanic, it is inconsistent with the above statement.
> 
> ...


I answered to all these questions in detail in the report that I posted.
You may also need a galvanic isolation between your streamer and your DI, but you won't know it unless you try.
I was also using longtime the DI without iGalvanic during longtime, because I presumed that both the USB output of the USBridge and the USB input of the DI do not need it, but I was wrong. 

I don't defeat the galvanic isolation, the data is streamed through the USB cables. The 10 mHz signal goes through the BNC cables. And there's no risk of ground loops. 
iGalvanic is not limited to ground link optimization. It reduces incoming electrical noise.


----------



## sajunky

Dandoudou said:


> I don't defeat the galvanic isolation, the data is streamed through the USB cables. The 10 mHz signal goes through the BNC cables. And there's no risk of ground loops.


Do you want to say that BNC cable do not introduce ground loops? Please elaborate.


----------



## Dandoudou

sajunky said:


> Do you want to say that BNC cable do not introduce ground loops? Please elaborate.


I told you that there are no possible ground loops, because all the devices are connected to the same outlet.
These are basics for an audio setup.


----------



## sajunky

Dandoudou said:


> I told you that there are no possible ground loops, because all the devices are connected to the same outlet.


Incorrect.


----------



## Dandoudou

sajunky said:


> Incorrect.


What I said was correct: 

https://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/

Furthermore, people who use these clocks connect them to several devices, and should ground loops occur, the presence of iGalvanic between two devices does not increase such risk. 
The galvanic isolation of iGalvanic is reducing the electrical noise that enters to the DI through its USB port, and reaches the DAC through the I2S port.


----------



## FredA (Dec 14, 2022)

Connecting to the same outlet, you minimize possible dc offsets but there can steel be ground loops. Earth loops. Depending if signal cables are grounded on both sides or not.

Using a bigger/better usb cable can help and make the isolator useless. I used to have an intona isolator in my setup. I prefer without it with the di20he. But my streamer outputs a very clean signal. Connecting power and a clock to an intermediate device can create issues i am sure.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

FredA said:


> Connecting to the same outlet, you minimize possible dc offsets but there can steel be ground loops. Earth loops. Depending if signal cables are grounded on both sides or not.
> 
> Using a bigger/better usb cable can help and make the isolator useless. I used to have an intona isolator in my setup. I prefer without it with the di20he. But my streamer outputs a very clean signal. Connecting power and a clock to an intermediate device can create issues i am sure.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


I tried connecting the Allo to the DI-20 with an iFi Mercury, an Audioquest Forest, and a NEOTECH NEUB-1020. The addition of iGalvanic makes a great difference.
But as I wrote in the initial report, when I connected the Allo directly to the USB port of Pegasus, the addition of iGalvanic made no difference.

I never had hum or buz in my system. 

Which streamer are you using?


----------



## FredA

But again, the listening tests is all that matters. Whatever sounds best.

 For instance, I was a bit skeptical about high-end Furutec ac receptacles. I gave the gtx-d nfc (r) a try. It gave a really significant upgrade to my setup, after sounding like crap for a few days.


----------



## Dandoudou

My ac cables are built on order by an artisan that I trust. He is experimenting all kinds of cables, shielding, connectors, and he passes more time on these searches than I could ever have.


----------



## FredA

Dandoudou said:


> I tried connecting the Allo to the DI-20 with an iFi Mercury, an Audioquest Forest, and a NEOTECH NEUB-1020. The addition of iGalvanic makes a great difference.
> But as I wrote in the initial report, when I connected the Allo directly to the USB port of Pegasus, the addition of iGalvanic made no difference.
> 
> Which streamer are you using?


I have the usbridge sig as well. Both my streamer's psu and di20he are connected through the same balanced isolation transformer. I use good cords on both. And a Nimak purple usb cable with no 5v line in between. I don't know why exactly the isolator can help, must depend on many factors. The di20 has gavanic isolation internally. Between the usb receiver and the fpga. Quite similar to what is inside an audio-gd dac, i would say. It's not galavanic isolation on the usb line per say, so not the same as using something like the iGalvanic. There often are tricky issues to fix for a usb receiving device to work properly with a usb streamer. I encountered quite a few. But my current setup is rock-stable and sounds great. My experience is the usb cable does matter quite a lot.

I am now experimenting with grounding tubes/boxes and all sorts of power tweaks. This has doubled the amount of air in the sound. Quite a journey i had over the last 2 months.


----------



## Dandoudou

FredA said:


> I am now experimenting with grounding tubes/boxes and all sorts of power tweaks. This has doubled the amount of air in the sound. Quite a journey i had over the last 2 months.


It's very interesting. I was also planning to experiment with grounding boxes. I will PM you to ask you for advices, when I'll start looking into it.


----------



## FredA

Dandoudou said:


> It's very interesting. I was also planning to experiment with grounding boxes. I will PM you to ask you for advices, when I'll start looking into it.



One important thing i forgot to mention. My usbridge signature is assembled in such a way that its chassis is connected to neutral. So as a consequence, neutral is connected to ground if you have the ground terminal connected (and even without if the shield of the usb cable joins the receiving and sending devices' ground). This likely can cause issues. You have a similar issue with many psus out there that use non isolated 5.5/2.1 connectors, which does the same thing. The gx16-2 connector has no such problem.


----------



## FredA

So you should try disconnecting the usbrdige from ground and remove the iGalvanic, if usbrdige currently grounded. 

With many cables out there, ground is only connected one one side. This is to avoid ground loops. An info i got from Kingwa. I hope i quote him correctly.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

FredA said:


> So you should try disconnecting the usbrdige from ground and remove the iGalvanic, if usbrdige currently grounded.
> 
> With many cables out there, ground is only connected one one side. This is to avoid ground loops. An info i got from Kingwa. I hope i quote him correctly.


Benchmark has a whitepaper on their site regarding how they decide to ground (or not) three conductor cable for balanced audio or AES/EBU. They said they feel it's better to ground digital cable because they are often chained together in installation use to get a long enough cable, but for balanced audio they don't ground the shield to the connector.


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

FredA said:


> One important thing i forgot to mention. My usbridge signature is assembled in such a way that its chassis is connected to neutral. So as a consequence, neutral is connected to ground if you have the ground terminal connected (and even without if the shield of the usb cable joins the receiving and sending devices' ground). This likely can cause issues. You have a similar issue with many psus out there that use non isolated 5.5/2.1 connectors, which does the same thing. The gx16-2 connector has no such problem.


The chassis of my USBridge is also connected to the ground. There's a dedicated connector for that to attach the Allo to the Shanti.

The RBi3 inside the Allo runs on an extremely low CPU load, because it is configured as Diretta Target. In this setting, the endpoint performs very few computing tasks, because the sound is processes and rendered by a Host on the LAN.  The RBi3 of the Allo only converts the Ethernet packages to I2S sound, clocks it, and then translates it for its transfer through the USB port. So, its CPU load is not only low, it is also on a completely constant level.

In addition, GentooPlayer has many tweaks to optimize the RPI with a low power consumption, disabling all the features of the computer that are unnecessary for the procession of the sound, reducing the number of active CPUs to two out of four.


----------



## FredA

Dandoudou said:


> The chassis of my USBridge is also connected to the ground. There's a dedicated connector for that to attach the Allo to the Shanti.
> 
> The RBi3 inside the Allo runs on an extremely low CPU load, because it is configured as Diretta Target. In this setting, the endpoint performs very few computing tasks, because the sound is processes and rendered by a Host on the LAN.  The RBi3 of the Allo only converts the Ethernet packages to I2S sound, clocks it, and then translates it for its transfer through the USB port.
> 
> In addition, GentooPlayer has many tweaks to optimize the RPI with a low power consumption, disabling all the features of the computer that are unnecessary for the procession of the sound, reducing the number of active CPUs to two out of four.


You take the hood off (just the top) and use a multimeter to determine if neutral (no earth) is connected to the chassis. It is not ideal if the case. There is a neutral (next to a 5v) pad near the usb-c power connector. It is label "gnd". I use these two pads to feed a 5.5/2.1 connected i installed to improve power delivery.


----------



## Dandoudou (Dec 14, 2022)

FredA said:


> You take the hood off (just the top) and use a multimeter to determine if neutral (no earth) is connected to the chassis. It is not ideal if the case. There is a neutral (next to a 5v) pad near the usb-c power connector. It is label "gnd". I use these two pads to feed a 5.5/2.1 connected i installed to improve power delivery.


It's night in France. I'll check it tomorrow with a multimeter during daylight.

I don't understand what you mean when you say: "I use these two pads to feed a 5.5/2.1 connected i installed to improve power delivery."
Are you powering your Allo through its dedicated USB-C connector?


----------



## FredA

Dandoudou said:


> It's night in France. I'll check it tomorrow with a multimeter during daylight.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean when you say: "I use these two pads to feed a 5.5/2.1 connected i installed to improve power delivery."
> Are you powering your Allo through its dedicated USB-C connector?


No, I installed a 5.5/2.1 connector, which i use instead.


----------



## FredA

This is where to solder the two wires


----------



## Dandoudou

FredA said:


> This is where to solder the two wires


It's better than the USB-C connector. 
Allo.com should have done it when they based the streamer on the RBi3.


----------



## FredA

Dandoudou said:


> It's better than the USB-C connector.
> Allo.com should have done it when they based the streamer on the RBi3.


Maybe a pcb 5.5/2.1 could be soldered directly there.


----------



## dougms3

FredA said:


> No, I installed a 5.5/2.1 connector, which i use instead.


I have the same grounding tube on my PLC, high five.


----------



## FredA

dougms3 said:


> I have the same grounding tube on my PLC, high five.


I have one my master clock output and dac input (neutral) too. Waiting to be upgraded with 1.5kg boxes. The tubes will then go on the dac analog outputs. Looking forward to it.


----------



## dougms3

FredA said:


> I have one my master clock output and dac input (neutral) too. Waiting to be upgraded with 1.5kg boxes. The tubes will then go on the dac analog outputs. Looking forward to it.


Looking forward to hearing your impressions.  

I really hope it doesn't make that much of a difference so I don't have to get one but considering how much of a difference that tube made, a 1.5kg box will probably be very impactful.


----------



## Jake2

FredA said:


> I have one my master clock output and dac input (neutral) too. Waiting to be upgraded with 1.5kg boxes. The tubes will then go on the dac analog outputs. Looking forward to it.


Which ones are you going with Fred?

I've had these 2kg Quartz Acoustics ones highly recommended, just waiting till after the summer holidays (down here in the Antipodes) before maybe getting some.

https://quartzacoustic.com/shop/qa-premium-audio-ground-box-with-crocodile-clip-cable-included/


----------



## dougms3 (Dec 15, 2022)

Jake2 said:


> Which ones are you going with Fred?
> 
> I've had these 2kg Quartz Acoustics ones highly recommended, just waiting till after the summer holidays (down here in the Antipodes) before maybe getting some.
> 
> https://quartzacoustic.com/shop/qa-premium-audio-ground-box-with-crocodile-clip-cable-included/


So many to choose from.  A few people have tested them in the aliexpress cable thread with great results, I haven't seen that particular one though, just some unbranded variations of it.


----------



## Mr Brett

Jake2 said:


> Which ones are you going with Fred?
> 
> I've had these 2kg Quartz Acoustics ones highly recommended, just waiting till after the summer holidays (down here in the Antipodes) before maybe getting some.
> 
> https://quartzacoustic.com/shop/qa-premium-audio-ground-box-with-crocodile-clip-cable-included/



I have heard these are good...


----------



## FredA

Mr Brett said:


> I have heard these are good...


I got them on ali.


----------



## Mr Brett

FredA said:


> I got them on ali.


I've got an SGS-1, Silent Point and an Aucharm.
Maybe will try a Quartz Acoustics next year.


----------



## dougms3

Mr Brett said:


> I've got an SGS-1, Silent Point and an Aucharm.
> Maybe will try a Quartz Acoustics next year.


Is there any difference between them?

Does one perform better than another?

Pics?

I'm very interested in these grounding boxes.


----------



## Mr Brett

dougms3 said:


> Is there any difference between them?
> 
> Does one perform better than another?
> 
> ...


I've only heard the SGS-1 in my full system.
Initial thoughts: 
Smooth is one way of describing it.
My system has lost its digital sound over the last few months, with the grounding box moving it even further from that.

Will get to putting it all together next year, with the Silent Point and Aucharm in. Will use them on my streamer, Dac and DDC.

On WBF, someone thought the SGS-1 was not as good as others (although is the cheapest of their range).


----------



## FredA

Mr Brett said:


> I've only heard the SGS-1 in my full system.
> Initial thoughts:
> Smooth is one way of describing it.
> My system has lost its digital sound over the last few months, with the grounding box moving it even further from that.
> ...


Got a 3kg silent point here and two Aucharms coming in on Monday.


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## OCC7N

Mail from magnahifi😍 DI20HE has arrived


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## OCC7N

The clock looks like 50 am I right?


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## sajunky

Right. In your setup it will be unused. 

Answering your question in the other thread: connect your clock source both to DDC and a DAC, you need two BNC cables to do so.


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## FredA

It's the clock input that matters. Looks like 75-ohm, not sure from the pic.


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## OCC7N

I believe the devil is twisting my mind right, its like I am against the world trying to figure out set with clock

1. I dont use bnc cable unless I have a master clock - even thoug I have the di20 and R8hemk2

1. Correct?

2. I HAVE to use two bnc cable for the clock setup(master clock, Dac and di20he) to function. 

Which means the master clock has both bnc connected, to master clock outputs, either sine or square(2 bnc ouputs)

These two bnc outputs to both:

DDC 10Mhz input
DAC 10Mhz(IN2)

2. Correct?

3. Since I dont have a master clock I dont need this bnc cable for clock setup between dac and ddc?

3. Correct?


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## FredA (Dec 16, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> I believe the devil is twisting my mind right, its like I am against the world trying to figure out set with clock
> 
> 1. I dont use bnc cable unless I have a master clock - even thoug I have the di20 and R8hemk2
> 
> ...


Your bnc in on the dac is a clock input so all correct. I recommend i2s or aes/ebu for the signal connection. Rca could give great results too. Be prepared for a long burn- in!

Just to be sure, if you had a clock, you would still not use the clock output on the di20he.


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## FredA

Jake2 said:


> Which ones are you going with Fred?
> 
> I've had these 2kg Quartz Acoustics ones highly recommended, just waiting till after the summer holidays (down here in the Antipodes) before maybe getting some.
> 
> https://quartzacoustic.com/shop/qa-premium-audio-ground-box-with-crocodile-clip-cable-included/


Sorry for the delay. I went for the Aucharms. They seem similar inside to the Silent Point i got already.


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## OCC7N

We are different in perception. I exaggerate my impressions a lot: But damn!!!

Just turned on the system:

Synology NAS* > usb >di20he > i2s hdmi > r8hemk2 > acss > he9le > Susvara

Its unbelievable, the distortion/noise/harsness I hear from deltas are all gone. Does not hurt my ears turning the volume up, like it does on:RME TT2 DIABLO.

First I thought it was boring because this dac does not do anything, it does not stand in the way. No coloration, no veils, no muted/darkish coating. This makes it very organic, lively, musical. The extend of every instruments.


If I should explain my impression short:

“It sound like the distortions I hear on all my other deltas is GONE!”

*only DSM 6 supports dacs, DM me if you want to downgrade I can help maybe


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## FredA

OCC7N said:


> We are different in perception. I exaggerate my impressions a lot: But damn!!!
> 
> Just turned on the system:
> 
> ...


At this stage, things will be varying from one day to the next. So be warned. You'll need to do much burn-in. 

Wait until you apply a clock it'll be the finished touch. And res will  at least be as good as with any delta sigma. Dynamic and timbres will be better. 

The analogue character of the sound is quite something indeed. I listen for 25-30h per week. Never any fatigue. I dont know what fatigue is since i got an audio-gd setup.


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## Jandu

OCC7N said:


> We are different in perception. I exaggerate my impressions a lot: But damn!!!
> 
> Just turned on the system:
> 
> ...



Welcome to the club that good music does not require good equipment spec and where sound quality/$ ratio is higher than normal.

Wait till you have over 500 hrs of burn in until you get to a stable sound signature.

Enjoooy


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## OCC7N

Thanks!

Kingwas designs are truly something else.

I feel the bass gives my Susvara that punch I miss from dynamic headphones. The lows are the truth on this setup!

The lows are very very interesting on R8. It gives me the vibe from ATC SCM40A, another dimension, the details in the lows. Wow!

This will be my endgame. There is no distractions, its fast on point, “just” perfect.


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## soundlogic

This just in…I was in the process to check whether or not I had the external clock button checked, and when I press that center button on my DI-20 HE, it says ‘Fail”…
Has anyone experienced this? What’s the fix?
I’ve checked all my external clock connections and all seems good.
Also, what is the recommended firmware, and its most current release dat?


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## gimmeheadroom

soundlogic said:


> This just in…I was in the process to check whether or not I had the external clock button checked, and when I press that center button on my DI-20 HE, it says ‘Fail”…
> Has anyone experienced this? What’s the fix?
> I’ve checked all my external clock connections and all seems good.
> Also, what is the recommended firmware, and its most current release dat?


What's your clock setup?


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## soundlogic

Gustard c-16


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## gimmeheadroom

soundlogic said:


> Gustard c-16


I was asking about how you have the clock setup. Do you get a lock on any other device or is the DI-20 the only device you have that can use a 10 MHz clock?

Did you try each set of outputs?

Do you have an oscilloscope?


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## soundlogic

Thanks for your response…I don’t have other devices to check lock…I was thinking of trying some other outputs, I don’t have an oscilloscope,


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## FredA

soundlogic said:


> Thanks for your response…I don’t have other devices to check lock…I was thinking of trying some other outputs, I don’t have an oscilloscope,


 Could be a bad cable. Try another one if you can.


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## dougms3

soundlogic said:


> This just in…I was in the process to check whether or not I had the external clock button checked, and when I press that center button on my DI-20 HE, it says ‘Fail”…
> Has anyone experienced this? What’s the fix?
> I’ve checked all my external clock connections and all seems good.
> Also, what is the recommended firmware, and its most current release dat?


This might be an obvious thing but doesn't hurt to check.  

Which bnc connector did you plug in to?  Did you try connecting it to the other bnc connector on the di20?


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## soundlogic

So it was working fine about a month ago and then for some reason I went to check it couple of weeks ago and it showed fail so I don’t think I have it plugged into the wrong BNC connector on the DI-20. We also have experienced a couple of power outages in this weather, which probably could have some bearing.
I will try some different outs on Gustard, to see if it can sync properly.


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## sajunky (Dec 26, 2022)

soundlogic said:


> So it was working fine about a month ago and then for some reason I went to check it couple of weeks ago and it showed fail so I don’t think I have it plugged into the wrong BNC connector on the DI-20. We also have experienced a couple of power outages in this weather, which probably could have some bearing.
> I will try some different outs on Gustard, to see if it can sync properly.


C16 is warming up for 15 minutes. During this time all outputs are disabled. DI-20 will not allow to select external clock if cannot lock on the signal. C16 has a button to bypass warming-up time out and activate outputs immediately.

Power cuts could mess up with configuration. Check if all outputs are enabled. Use direct ports (not isolated). After you get it working, disable unused ports one by one for the best SQ.

[Edit] I see ports can be only enabled/disabled in groups. Gustard don't want me to download user manual for some reason.


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## dougms3

soundlogic said:


> So it was working fine about a month ago and then for some reason I went to check it couple of weeks ago and it showed fail so I don’t think I have it plugged into the wrong BNC connector on the DI-20. We also have experienced a couple of power outages in this weather, which probably could have some bearing.
> I will try some different outs on Gustard, to see if it can sync properly.


I see, I thought you just plugged it in out of the box.

Maybe it just needs a reflash of the firmware.


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## Vangelo (Dec 29, 2022)

My hifi buddy came over a few weeks to test out his Leo Bodnar GPS clock on my Di-20:




He gets dramatic results with his Gustard R26. Unfortunately, with the Di-20 we could hear no improvement.

This did prompt me to investigate one of the cheap 10MHz  OCXO clocks from AliExpress. This arrived a few weeks later & I  connected  it directly with a SMA to BNC adapter. I chose this one:




I am powering with iFi Power 2 9v.

Immediately it had an effect. I could detect a subtle widening of the soundstage and maybe more detail. This was using Sine wave output. The Square wave gave a strange effect I did not like.

So I lived with the device for a couple of days and decided to box it, see if that would have further effect:




I also applied some dampening bitumen and a rubber pad on one end so it remains supported behind the Di-20 without straining the socket.
Then I re-did the testing, which I had not done for a few days.

Wow.....all I can say is I was shocked. The difference was so dramatic I wondered how I ever listened to the Di-20 on its own! I cannot be sure if this was due to the box, or the device running in, but for what it cost, I cannot believe it.

I have now ordered another cheap similar cheap clock from a different manufacturer to see if the sound can be further improved. I am now wondering how much hype is there in these expensive clocks............


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## soundlogic

Vangelo said:


> My hifi buddy came over a few weeks to test out his Leo Bodnar GPS clock on my Di-20:
> 
> He gets dramatic results with his Gustard R26. Unfortunately, with the Di-20 we could hear no improvement.
> 
> ...


Can you please post a link to both the clock and box? Thanks


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## Vangelo

soundlogic said:


> Can you please post a link to both the clock and box? Thanks


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004468915743.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.721d2db4knus0U&algo_pvid=e02a6cd7-087c-4af4-8005-365cb15ac810&aem_p4p_detail=202212290127069681225422318240009430816&algo_exp_id=e02a6cd7-087c-4af4-8005-365cb15ac810-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B"sku_id"%3A"12000030264786972"%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21GBP%2121.91%2112.49%21%21%21%21%21%40211b88f016723060264107573e9939%2112000030264786972%21sea&curPageLogUid=0jHYY2KifCbt&ad_pvid=202212290127069681225422318240009430816_1&ad_pvid=202212290127069681225422318240009430816_1

The box I had lying around. Plenty on ebay....


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## OCC7N

Vangelo said:


> My hifi buddy came over a few weeks to test out his Leo Bodnar GPS clock on my Di-20:
> 
> He gets dramatic results with his Gustard R26. Unfortunately, with the Di-20 we could hear no improvement.
> 
> ...


Only connected to DI20(NON-HE)? No Dac?


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## Vangelo (Dec 30, 2022)

OCC7N said:


> Only connected to DI20(NON-HE)? No Dac?


No, my DAC has no clock input.........

Ifi Zen Stream > Di20-HE > i2s > Topping D90LE. Cheap AliExpress 10MHz 50 Ohm  clock connected directly to clock output on Di-20 using SMA to BNC adaptor so it hangs vertically off the back. The Di-20 is on its own isolation platform and I positioned the lower edge of the  clock case on a rubber pad so it rests on the shelf the Di-20 is resting on without straining the BNC socket. The clock has been shielded in its own metal case and is powered by an iFi Power2 9V supply.

Hard to photograph with all the cables, but this is how it is positioned.


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## Big man on the Fox

Anyone using a IFi Audio ZenStream?
I’m feeding USB into DI-20HE with Zen set at position #1-AIO and all is well running Roon.
When I change Zen to position #2-Roon Exclusive, Zen switches to SPDIF?
Anyone else experiencing this? I prefer USB.


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## gimmeheadroom

This sounds very deja vu, did you ask in the zenstream thread?


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## Mr BubbaHyde

Big man on the Fox said:


> Anyone using a IFi Audio ZenStream?
> I’m feeding USB into DI-20HE with Zen set at position #1-AIO and all is well running Roon.
> When I change Zen to position #2-Roon Exclusive, Zen switches to SPDIF?
> Anyone else experiencing this? I prefer USB.


You need to change the device output in Roon Device settings when in Roon Ready Mode.

Cheers!!


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## Big man on the Fox

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> You need to change the device output in Roon Device settings when in Roon Ready Mode.
> 
> Cheers!!


This is USB setting when in #1 AIO



When I switch Zen to #2:





When in AIO #1 DEVICE INFO shows USB
I even tried turning Zen off-on after making changes in Roon.
Note that in screen shot 1 shows Zen as Bridge device and 2 as Audio device


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## Mr BubbaHyde

Big man on the Fox said:


> This is USB setting when in #1 AIO
> 
> When I switch Zen to #2:
> 
> ...


I also posted this answer for you over in the ZS thread, perhaps you are not seeing the replies to your posts.

This will help you sort it out...



Now back to the Audio GD thread, lol

Cheers!!


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## Big man on the Fox

Mr BubbaHyde said:


> I also posted this answer for you over in the ZS thread, perhaps you are not seeing the replies to your posts.
> 
> This will help you sort it out...
> 
> ...



THANK YOU!!  Video showed the one step I Missed.


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