# Got the AK 120, but I have a problem...



## hortisimo

The Astell and Kern AK 120 sounds so amazingly pristine that I don't want to get rid of it, but it doesn't have enough power to drive my Sennheiser HD 650's well.
   
  I'm wondering whether passing the audio through an external amplifier would degrade the amazing sound quality coming out of its dual DACs? (I don't know much about how the electronics work, so sorry if this sounds like a rube question.) If an external amplifier will not degrade the sound quality would something like this be suggested?: http://www.amazon.com/Output-Desktop-Headphone-Amplifier-Compatible/dp/B008J26ZL4/ref=pd_sim_e_1
   
  Thank you very much for your time


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## trueno84

Hey there buddy, since no 1 answers to that maybe i can give you my opinion. DAC aka Digital Analog Converter is the one that converts the digital files to analog which is 3.5mm. So you will still be enjoying the dual DAC in ak120. however which amp or how your amp gonna color the sound would be another story. A cheap amp would degrade the audio whereas a good amp would make the already good sound from Ak120 better. Hope it helps


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## hortisimo

Thank you very much for your reply! I got some help from reddit and decided on the O2 from JDS labs. Thanks again!


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## swmkdr

Quote: 





hortisimo said:


> Thank you very much for your reply! I got some help from reddit and decided on the O2 from JDS labs. Thanks again!


 
  That's the perfect choice. The O2 is renowned as a very transparent amp, so you'll get the same sound as you were getting from the AK120 alone but at greater volume.


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## rudi0504

AK 120 with the headphone out has no SQ degradation use external amp 

With very good amps , your AK 120 improve the SQ 

Please don't forget to buy very good mini to mini cable for your set up 

My amp recommendation are :

Pico Power 
RSA the Intruder 

Source : AK 120
Amp : Pico Power or RSA The Intruder 
Headphone : HD 650 
Cable : mini to mini any good brand , better silver cable for your HD 650 or hybrid cable 
SQ : audiophile SQ


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## D K A

Quote: 





rudi0504 said:


> AK 120 with the headphone out has no SQ degradation use external amp
> 
> With very good amps , your AK 120 improve the SQ
> 
> ...


 

 AK 120 with Intruder + alo sxc = heaven SQ
  Very nice recommendation Mr.Rudi


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## justin b

I'm using the ALO sxc mini to mini from my AK100 to my ALO international amp. I would highly recommend it. I used several other "stock" connectors and there was a dramatic improvement of clarity, warmth, dynamic range with the ALO sxc interconnect. It doesn't color the sound to my ears at all, the others I used sounded flatter and more dull. Cables make a difference for sure. I'm new to head-fi, but not to home systems and I nearly have as much money in my cabling as I do my components in my home loudspeaker system.


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## D K A

Quote: 





justin b said:


> I'm using the ALO sxc mini to mini from my AK100 to my ALO international amp. I would highly recommend it. I used several other "stock" connectors and there was a dramatic improvement of clarity, warmth, dynamic range with the ALO sxc interconnect. It doesn't color the sound to my ears at all, the others I used sounded flatter and more dull. Cables make a difference for sure. I'm new to head-fi, but not to home systems and I nearly have as much money in my cabling as I do my components in my home loudspeaker system.


 

 Glad to hear that you like the sxc, of course there must be much improvement from the 'stock' cable


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## lescanadiens

Hi rudi0504,
   
  I am intrigue with Pico Power vs RSA Intruder.
  For single ended, which one is your preference.
  Have you compared between these two?
   
  I was searching for Pico Power, Intruder and I was asking you about SRA 71a vs Intruder in other thread.
  Many thanks in advance rudi. 
  Seems like you have the most complete amps for our reference in headfi!
   
  Cheers mate
   
  Quote: 





rudi0504 said:


> AK 120 with the headphone out has no SQ degradation use external amp
> 
> With very good amps , your AK 120 improve the SQ
> 
> ...


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## DrSheep

I strongly suggest you look into the VerntureCraft SounDroid Typhoon, as it can takes optical directly from your AK120.  In fact, they demoed this feature with an AK100.


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## x838nwy

drsheep said:


> I strongly suggest you look into the VerntureCraft SounDroid Typhoon, as it can takes optical directly from your AK120.  In fact, they demoed this feature with an AK100.




Wouldn't that be using the dac in the SounDroid rather than the AK120?


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## DrSheep

Quote: 





x838nwy said:


> Wouldn't that be using the dac in the SounDroid rather than the AK120?


 
  Actually that is a good question, because the SDT uses the same port for analog line in and optical in.  However, since the AK120 has an analog line out, the OP can use that instead.  But again I don't think getting a optical to analog convertor would work, as it also bypass the internal DACs from the AK120.  So either way the OP will have to bypass the internal DACs by using the optical out, unless s/he choose to stick with the headphone out and double amp.  One key point to note is that the SDT does support DSD, and I think it will work well with the AK100/120.


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## x838nwy

So in conclusion, the 120 cannot be used as a conventional DAC (as in without going through a variable gain stage)? Is there a way to get a fixed line-level out?


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## DrSheep

Quote: 





x838nwy said:


> So in conclusion, the 120 cannot be used as a conventional DAC (as in without going through a variable gain stage)? Is there a way to get a fixed line-level out?


 
http://www.astellnkern.com/eng/htm/feature/04_feature_120.asp
   
  I think the AK120 can only function as a DAC if only use in USB or Optical in mode, then the headphone / optical out will turns into a line out.  However, straight from the device the port should only act as an headphone out, as no where in the manual mention that the AK120 has an analog line out function.


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## rudi0504

lescanadiens said:


> Hi rudi0504,
> 
> I am intrigue with Pico Power vs RSA Intruder.
> For single ended, which one is your preference.
> ...




Sorry for late reply 
Battle of 3 single ended high end amp :

Source : AK 120
Amp : from left to right 
 RSA RS 71 A > RSA Intruder > Pico Power 
Headphone : Ultrasone Sig Pro 
Cable : oyaide headphone cable 
 Wagnus mini to mini 

RS 71 A :
High : similar to Pico Power , below Intruder 
Mid : the sweetest midrange from these 3
Bass : the best bass impact and slam from these 3
Soundstage : very depth , is not as wide as these 2
Separation : the other 2 has better instrument placement .

Intruder : 
High : is more open than RS 71 A and Pico Power 
Mid : is not as sweet as RS 71 A , is on par with pico power has a bit sibilance 
Bass : has less bass impact compare to RS 71 A , is below Pico Power too 
Soundstage : wider than RS 71 A , is on par with Pico Power
Separation : better than RS 71 A , is on par with Pico Power.

Pico Power :
High : on par with RS 71 A
Mid : below RS 71 A , is on par with Intruder
Bass : less impact compare RS 71 A , but better than Intruder .
Soundstage : wider than RS 71 A , on par with Intruder .
Separation : is on par with Intruder , better than RS 71 A.

Power wise : RS 71 A > Pico Power > Intruder 
Clarity : Intruder > Pico Power > RS 71 A
Mid : RS 71 A > Intruder > Pico Power 
Bass impact : RS 71 A > Pico Power > Intruder 

IMO

These 3 high end portable amp has their strong and weak point .
Nobody is perfect


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## lescanadiens

Thank you rudi,
You are truly a pathfinder in the Headfi wilderness.

Appreciate your help



rudi0504 said:


> Sorry for late reply
> Battle of 3 single ended high end amp :
> 
> Source : AK 120
> ...


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## rudi0504

lescanadiens said:


> Thank you rudi,
> You are truly a pathfinder in the Headfi wilderness.
> 
> Appreciate your help




You are welcome 
 I hope you can choose between these 3 portable amps


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## DrSheep

Silly question: does the AK120 has an analog line out? No where in the spec I can find it mentioned. Also will that be a problem double ampping from the headphone out?


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## snapple10

Pico Power compared to intruder , noticed what I call a kick must be what the impact on bass , you are descrbing- still trying to learn terms 

Now , how does that cables for sig. Pro compare to stock? Sorry, if off topic


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## harryb

Quote: 





rudi0504 said:


> Sorry for late reply
> Battle of 3 single ended high end amp :
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  OK but if you were trapped on a desert island the AK120, a set of CIEM's and just one of these amps....which one would it be??


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## AlanYWM

Quote: 





harryb said:


> OK but if you were trapped on a desert island the AK120, a set of CIEM's and just one of these amps....which one would it be??


 
   
  I would pick the Intruder because it has a dac and built-in batteries. Not that it would help much in a desert


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## lescanadiens

I will choose PP, and if possible to own both, then Intruder.

Following criterias:
Sq: comparable according to rudi's description.
Price: PP is more affordable compared to Intruder.
Build: PP is hands down more attractive.
You have to see PP in person to appreciate the build quality. The most beautifully constructed portable amp i have seen.

It comes to a matter of taste sq wise and convenience.

PP has no dac (unless you use PC).

Battery swapping is quite annoying with all things rechargeable these days.

Balance outputs. Unless we have a balanced hp, then we don't need to.

With AK120, i have tried, it sounds magical with PP, single ended.

IMHO.





alanywm said:


> I would pick the Intruder because it has a dac and built-in batteries. Not that it would help much in a desert


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## cukis350

Quote: 





drsheep said:


> Silly question: does the AK120 has an analog line out? No where in the spec I can find it mentioned. Also will that be a problem double ampping from the headphone out?


 
  anyone has an answer for this?  I am thinking of using the AK120 as a source for my Stepdance, but not sure if it's possible since Stepdance does not an optical input.
   
  Thanks!
  
  Leon


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## DrSheep

Quote: 





cukis350 said:


> anyone has an answer for this?  I am thinking of using the AK120 as a source for my Stepdance, but not sure if it's possible since Stepdance does not an optical input.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Leon


 
  I think that should be fine, as the best answer I found was that the headphone out is basically a variable line out, which in some sense is just playing with words.  However, given the quality of the AK120, I do think there should not be any distorsion at max volume.


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## justin b

+1 cranking the volume to max did not create audible distortion (that I could perceive anyway) from the headphone out on my AK100 when running into my preamp on my main system. I have since had it modded to RWAK-S so it's truly line level out, but it did fine before being modded with the volume maxed (though now it sounds noticeably better). I would imagine the same is true for the AK120 going to your Stepdance.


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## cukis350

Thank you guys for your replies. Btw, do you know of any optical cable that works with the AK1XX that you can recommend?


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## x838nwy

cukis350 said:


> Thank you guys for your replies. Btw, do you know of any optical cable that works with the AK1XX that you can recommend?




If you're gonna connect it to your stepdance, you won't be able to use the optical connection. Any mini jack at the ak120 will suffice.


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## cukis350

Oh I'm asking in general about the optical cable that will work with the AK120. I'm familiar with optical with toslink connector but not the 3.5mm jack.


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## DrSheep

I got mine from Sys. Concept Inc. in Canada total to $67.51 CAD shipped.  VentureCraft also has one ready made but it is almost triple the price.


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## kerrys30

. Wrong post.


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## keane1024

Well, I don't expect AK120 to be able to drive your HD650, because it is simply not designed to do that. I think AK120 has only optical out and no line out, so I don't recommend using it with portable amps to drive headphones like HD650. Maybe you can use it as a USB dac.


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## kerrys30

I've tried my hd650 straight out ak120 and worked but agree couldn't go to loud even with volume right up. Also tried it plugging into my jds labs c5 amp and ak120 and much better volume. Looking at rsa intruder now.......


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## CosmicHolyGhost

I think Centrance M8 LX is the correct answer especially if you have bal cable for HD650....


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## customNuts

cosmicholyghost said:


> I think Centrance M8 LX is the correct answer especially if you have bal cable for HD650....


 
  
 Well said.


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## goodvibes

x838nwy said:


> So in conclusion, the 120 cannot be used as a conventional DAC (as in without going through a variable gain stage)? Is there a way to get a fixed line-level out?


 
  
 max gain effectively removes any gain control effects. The headphone out is as quiet and clean as a line out but some phones need more juice. Line outs are simply fixed gain op amps without as much impedance consideration. If the main amp is of that quality. it will work equally well. Turning the gain all the way up eliminates any digital or volume pot effects. I don't think Red Wine swap out the amp stage on the dac mod for their line out.


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## Goldlion973

Ah, this is what got me in a twist in the other AK120 thread... first off, Moon Audio make custom optical cables of various lengths, Fiio also have a short optical cable for use with their products that you can buy (jack to jack).
  
 Heard that the AK120's headphone out doubles as a line out, this muddled my brain when looking for a portable amp to match with the device as it already is a DAC and an expencive one at that so using the optical out to another DAC would mean purchasing a higher quality converter than what the AK offers or otherwise risk undoing a $1000 purchase. This means using the DAC in the AK120 and simply boosting its signal with a good amp and not a DAC/Amp as the AK120 would have output its signal to analogue already, is only one DAC/amp I can think of that takes an optical in and seems worthy of the match up and thats the Hifi-M8, which isn't portable by any means... it'd basically be a waste of money not using the AK's internals IMO.
  
 (Sorry, just had to repeat that to myself there)
  
 Am thinking of pairing the device with a MIII B+ for its power, would be able to use it at home with full sized phones... but as the international is size matched for the AK100 I'm wondering whether it'll pair well or even sound good... as though ALO are saying that its not suitable sonically whereas their other devices are or something. Subversive messaging going on here methinks :-/


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## CosmicHolyGhost

y not get Intruder?


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## stvc

goldlion973 said:


> Ah, this is what got me in a twist in the other AK120 thread... first off, Moon Audio make custom optical cables of various lengths, Fiio also have a short optical cable for use with their products that you can buy (jack to jack).
> 
> Heard that the AK120's headphone out doubles as a line out, this muddled my brain when looking for a portable amp to match with the device as it already is a DAC and an expencive one at that so using the optical out to another DAC would mean purchasing a higher quality converter than what the AK offers or otherwise risk undoing a $1000 purchase. This means using the DAC in the AK120 and simply boosting its signal with a good amp and not a DAC/Amp as the AK120 would have output its signal to analogue already, is only one DAC/amp I can think of that takes an optical in and seems worthy of the match up and thats the Hifi-M8, which isn't portable by any means... it'd basically be a waste of money not using the AK's internals IMO.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thought MIII B+ having hiss issue?


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## Goldlion973

With IEM's I've heard... would have to read more into that if its still a problem, what headphones etc... the Intruder only works with a low level audio output as a DAC, consider that to be a serious over sight that they're probably going to fix with a new model before long, not really looking for a DAC so the 71b would be more of a contender.
  
 Am sizing up the Hifi-M8 at the moment, value wise it offers more even if it is a bit bulky :-/


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## Goldlion973

... ah, it doesn't have an analogue input, only digital.... back to the international/71b comparison.


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## tarainfo

I just received my Ak 120 and will be using my Sennheiser 600 with it

Now inclining toward the Sr71b portable amp. Probably using it single ended at the beginning


Anyone tried this combo

Thanks for your help


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## Goldlion973

Have read reviews that the International is a better option, its size has even been made to match the A&K range.


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## tarainfo

goldlion973 said:


> Have read reviews that the International is a better option, its size has even been made to match the A&K range.




Could you point me to those reviews ?
The Ak120 sounds fine with my Sennheiser 600 but I'm sure that matched with the right amp, it would me much better. But which one?


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## Goldlion973

Thought it was headphonia that claimed it betters the RSA but its not, probably a good idea to save webpages as I go along next time, Zotero is a brilliant app if anyone is into research....in their International review Mike compares the international to the rest of the ALO line and gives the MIII a good review next to it.... of course the MIII doesn't double as a DAC and neither does the 71B which may or may not make them better dedicated devices, noise is an issue on the MIII, the Intruder has a lame DAC in comparison.... also, I feel a bias in some of headphonias reviews at times in the same way people on here are slanted toward the sites sponsors as they're heavily active on the forum, the Hifi-Man range does not get rave reviews on other forums such as anythingbutiod.com where users even go so far as to accuse them of fraud comparing sonic graphs etc .lol.
  
 The International Amp is sized to match the AK100 so it might actually be a bit small for the AK120, which is worse than a device being larger than the DAP IMO, at least I'd prefer the amp to be bigger than the DAP, especially a small and expencive one like the 120.
  
 http://www.headfonia.com/alo-international/
  
 Quite a few other reviews about.


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## Goldlion973

Sorry... it was the RX that was reviewed as being more powerful than the 71b, able to pair with the HE600: *http://www.headfonia.com/the-power-pack-alo-rx-mk3-b/* If you read the comments section in the review on the centrance M8 are below.
  
 All in all it'd come down to what you intend to use with the device. Wouldn't mark more powerful as being better sounding but IMO it says something for the diversity of a device as well as its value.
  
 Lord Victor Halgaard
   Just curious, any idea how much power this has compared to the ALO Rx Mk3b? For example how well would it drive something like the HE-6 comparably? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







 http://www.headfonia.com Mike
   That’s a good question and I should be able to compare it if I have the two side by side.
 However from the review of the Mk3B I know that the Rx can drive a HE6 better than the M8 can drive the K1000. And from experience the K1000 is easier to drive than the HE-6


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## tarainfo

In the end, I think I'll forgo the balanced approach and go with the SR-71A
Every review I saw was positive and it is an ideal match for HD 600
It's a bit bigger but so are HD 600s


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## Goldlion973

http://www.headfonia.com/rsa-sr71b-first-impression/


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## sathyam

Has anybody tried the ALO Rx Mk3 B+. with the AK120? I just ordered one of those AMPs for my AK120 to drive my LCD-2? From the Headfonia reviews, and also other Head-Fi threads, I found better reviews compared to the SR-71A.
  
 I am thinking of the following connections: AK120 - Line-out -> Mk3 - Balanced input -> LCD-2 - Balanced output. Would that work out?


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## kerrys30

Unless you get RWAK120-B upgrade I don't think you can get a balanced out from AK120.


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## Goldlion973

AK120 > Single Ended > ALO MIII > Balanced out > LCD RSA Cabled out.
  
 The MIII Amp can take single ended and output balanced... modifying the AK120 to output a balanced signal would make the set up a true balanced one which is why people stack so many devices, they output an unbalanced signal from a player to a device that converts that signal to balanced then to an amp that takes a balanced signal to a balanced headphone.
  
 You'd be saving on pocket space by modifying the AK120 to have it output a balanced signal direct to a balanced amp for a cleaner sound minus it being messed with in the process... you could also listen to it balanced minus an extra amp stage in the middle if you wanted.


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## Munkees

Hi,

 I have a AK120 and recently purchased a ALO International, is there anyway I can use my AK120 as a balanced output without the Red Wine modification? I apologize if this has been answered already, I'm new to a lot of this and have been reading some conflicting information.  I did a search for AK120 balanced and it listed the AK120 as being able to output a balanced signal?
  
 If I can do this, what equipment or additional equipment would I need?
  
 Thanks in advance to everybody for their help!


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## harryb

munkees said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a AK120 and recently purchased a ALO International, is there anyway I can use my AK120 as a balanced output without the Red Wine modification? I apologize if this has been answered already, I'm new to a lot of this and have been reading some conflicting information.  I did a search for AK120 balanced and it listed the AK120 as being able to output a balanced signal?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nope the AK120 has a single ended, not balanced output.  If you need a balanced output, you will need a modification.


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## Munkees

Thanks Harry, that's why I was a little confused when I saw the photo with a single ended output from the AK into the balanced input.  Does the RWAK mod allow you to do that?


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## stvc

Li





munkees said:


> Thanks Harry, that's why I was a little confused when I saw the photo with a single ended output from the AK into the balanced input.  Does the RWAK mod allow you to do that?




Link?


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## tarainfo

I have an AK120 and a Ray Samuels SR71B
I connect the AK120 single ended output to the SR71 single ended input
And the SR71b converts the signal to balanced when I connect my balanced headphones to the RSA 71B's
Balanced output
So you need the SR71bB and the cabling for your headphones can be done by moon-audio


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## Munkees

stvc said:


> Li
> Link?




My mistake. Sorry for not attaching the link. I found out what it was. It's the red wine audio s/b mod to the device and you have to purchase a four pin 3.5mm plug to XLR connection from them. 

I've been getting mixed opinions about this modification especially since the ak120 already has an excellent dac built in. I don't know if I want to be without my ak120 while sending it away plus then I lose the ability to use just the ak120 with my iem's.


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## stvc

I think if you are happy with stock ak120 I suggest you just stick to it, there is no end if you are keep comparing.


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## Munkees

stvc said:


> I think if you are happy with stock ak120 I suggest you just stick to it, there is no end if you are keep comparing.




Good advice. I really appreciate the community helping me not get too carried away lol.


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## DObleX

What about Beyerdynamic DT1350 80ohm? Is it necessary to buy external amp for it? Or will it be enough of internal ak120's amp?


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## iantownsend

Hi there.
  
 I have had the AK120 / D650 combo since AK120 came out. Works fine through external headphone amps.
  
 I use both Fiio Mont Blanc but my preferred goto is  iBasso D2 - Boa.
  
 So good that I returned it back to Chinese manufacturers when battery needed replacing after 4 or 5 years of continual use.
  
 Like anything audio, amplification is extremely personal - a key element for me is connecting lead (AK120 to headphone amp).
  
 I use silver Kimber cable from Russ Andrews in the UK. Sorted ! This gives me the pristine, clear, extended soundstage I love listening to with bass under control.
  
 Enjoy your listening 
  
 Ian


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