# "Cable Blind Taste Test"



## Edwood

I know DBT is not allowed here, but how about an in home, one person, "Blind Cable Taste Test"? 
_*edit, The test has been changed to a single set of Three cables._

 I want to make two visually identical InterConnect's. Label one a generic "A" and the other "B". One will be made from standard Starquad microphone cable, the other all balls out solid 99.99% silver. A mailing list gets started in this thread, and everyone tries them out for a week and posts which one they like better. They then mail it to the next person, etc etc. When the cables return to me, I reveal which cable was made out of what. 
 (cables could also be labeled with symbols or something, since the whole "letter grade" bias might factor in.)

 Should probably be limited to unbalanced IC's for now, as most people do not have balanced sources and amps.

 To mix things up a bit, two sets would go out. But the "A" and "B" are reversed in each set. One set goes to the East Coast, the other goes to the West Coast. 

 I would like to limit this test to the United States for now, to keep shipping costs and time down for everyone.

 I realize that there is always a risk for an unscrupulous member to just keep the wires and not mail it along for the next person, but I'm hoping that everyone will be honest, as the silver cable is obviously not cheap to make. Maybe this project will be limited to a smaller amount of people to start with? 

 I am still trying to make a decent silver IC (experimenting) so this little project won't be happening tomorrow. I just wanted to gauge the interest here. I'm not going to be charging anything for this, everyone would pay for their own shipping to the next person, and pay it along.

 So here's a chance to prove whether or not you can hear the difference between cables.
 This is my current method for this "test" I'm open to suggestions. I think this will be fun.

 -Ed


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## meat01

Sign me up! You should use different color heat shrink and/or techflex and put some sort of tamper seal or bond the connectors so that no one cheats 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and you would not have to mark them.


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## oneeyedhobbit

Absolutely--I've never understood why this particular sub-forum was anti DBT anyway.


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## Chinchy

Count me in. Let me know when/how to provide my info. I'll be part of the West Coast team.


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## Edwood

DBT is not forbidden, it just that it's use in a heated discussion is not allowed.

 This test is to leave it in a single person's hands. Everyone listens, passes the cables along, etc. And when the all is done, the secret is revealed.

 Yes, the connectors will be tamper proof. Someone messes with them, we'll all know.

 -Ed


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## lan

Sign me up. There's a chance that I like neither though. Should you make more than 2?


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## ooheadsoo

I put maybe because this thing is a time eater! Also of concern is how long the IC's will be. Some people may need longer lengths. For those who need shorter lengths, flexibility of the IC may be an issue.


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lan* 
_Sign me up. There's a chance that I like neither though. Should you make more than 2?_

 

I'm thinking two test pairs for now. One pair for the Eastern US and one for the Western half.

 We'll see how it goes from there.

 I also think it's best to limit the test to the two cables. "A" and "B" 
 It defeats the purpose of a blind test if you compare it to other cables. (of course everyone can compare them all they want to their own cables, but for the sake of simplicity in this test, I would ask that people only post about the two IC's for this test.)

 I know you have a fondness for for tape, lan, but I will be disguising these cables, so no scotch tape will be used here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_I put maybe because this thing is a time eater! Also of concern is how long the IC's will be. Some people may need longer lengths. For those who need shorter lengths, flexibility of the IC may be an issue._

 

That's why I think one week should be just enough time. Too long and the test could go on forever. What does everyone think? * Is one week long enough for each person?* Keep in mind that shipping between people will add time to the test as well. But that's why I am thinking two pairs of IC's will help. Also, I think it would be best to organize the shipping to be from whichever person is closest to the next one, to make shipping cheaper and faster. 

*I would like to ideally limit the length to 1 - 1.5 meters. * What's everyone's thoughts? What's a good length? Remember, the silver gets kinda expensive the longer I make it, and also the shorter the better for SQ.
 Since I'm doing this for free, I think it's not a lot to ask for people participating to rearrange their equipment a bit if it is needed.

 The cables should be pretty flexible, BTW.

 -Ed


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## jude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_....DBT is not forbidden, it just that it's use in a heated discussion is not allowed...._

 

Says who? DBT discussion isn't allowed in this forum because of a problem we had with a couple of people (one really bad one in particular) -- as well as experience from at least one other audio forum -- in which cable discussions were being hit with "you're-crazy-'cause-DBT-would-prove-so" posts. No cable discussion seemed safe for a time, so the no-DBT rule, first in place at Audio Asylum's cable forum, was instituted here.


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## Edwood

I'm trying to come up with a very simple bullet proof test for people to have fun with. I suppose it is technically "single blind" and not Double Blind as the tester and test subject are one in the same, and they'll know when they're switching cables.

 So I guess this test should really be called a "Blind Cable Taste Test".


 -Ed


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## Dane

What is described here isn't a real blind test - the subject knows when the switch is done.

 A single blind test (which this is not) means that the subject doesn't know when the switch is done, but the assistent does.

 A real DBT means that both the subject and the assistent don't know what's going on. A third person is needed in this case.

 So you see, you do not need to worry since hardly anybody performs the forbidden DBT - the legal SBT can however bring you a long way, but it works best if the assistent is a non-believer determined to hide the switch from the subject.


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## lan

I think 1 week is enough time and 1 meter is good. 0.5 maybe too short for some people setups. 1.5 is kind of getting long.


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dane* 
_What is described here isn't a real blind test - the subject knows when the switch is done.

 A single blind test (which this is not) means that the subject doesn't know when the switch is done, but the assistent does.

 A real DBT means that both the subject and the assistent don't know what's going on. A third person is needed in this case.

 So you see, you do not need to worry since hardly anybody performs the forbidden DBT - the legal SBT can however bring you a long way, but it works best if the assistent is a non-believer determined to hide the switch from the subject._

 


 I am going to call it the "Blind Cable Taste Test" from now on.

 Like the infamous soft drink taste tests, the tester has no idea which drink is what, and they get to choose which one to drink first. Then they are asked which one they like better and why, and finally after that, it is then revealed which drink was what.

 Try not to chew on the cables, though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


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## Canman

This sounds like a great idea Ed. I think you should stick to 1M cables since that seems to be most common length. I wouldn't worry too much about particulars, but this will be an interesting test.

 It is important to come up with a solid hypothesis so that the results are less arguable. The way I see it, a decent hypothesis is if a statistically significant majority is able to identify the correct interconnect, then there are audible differences between different conductor types (or just different cable). To determine what is statistically significant, you'll have to consult one of our resident statisticians like Hirsch. 

 You also need to figure out what data you want to collect from participants. Will it matter when it comes times to discuss the results what components people used? Maybe the older guys went to too many concerts in their younger days and can't hear squat anymore..in this case recording age might be helpful. 

 Also--maybe the test participants can each paypal Ed a dollar or two so that his costs of doing the test are less. 

 I am very interested in participating. Keep us posted!


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## elnero

Edwood,

 You may want to get people to refrain from posting until everyone has had a chance to listen. That way people aren't influenced by others observations. If people wanted to get their impressions down on paper so to speak maybe they could PM their thought to you and you could post them at a later date.

 Oh and if it does make it into Canada you can count me in.


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## zachary80

Sounds like a great dea, but the main problem will be deciding who is and isn't allowed to get the cables (and keeping track).

 I agree that people should not post there findings before everyone has had their turn. Maybe a good way would be to send all the information to an email address for safekeeping


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* 
_Edwood,

 You may want to get people to refrain from posting until everyone has had a chance to listen. That way people aren't influenced by others observations. If people wanted to get their impressions down on paper so to speak maybe they could PM their thought to you and you could post them at a later date.

 Oh and if it does make it into Canada you can count me in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That could be part of the fun. Bandwagon jumping? I think I may label them by symbols rather than numbers or letters. Maybe one is "circle" and the other "square" or maybe "triangle".

 I'm thinking maybe a wild card could be thrown in here. Maybe there could be three IC's.

 1. Cotton insulated 20awg 99.99% Solid silver 
 2. Canare Starquad (should I terminate it half balanced? Ground the shield braid?)
 3. The guts of the crappiest cable I can find

 I bought some PVC tubing to play with today. The silver "twisted pair" just barely fits (the cotton is pretty thick). I think it may be a good idea to put the "guts" of the Canare Starquad inside the same PVC tubing, and like wise with the "crappiest cable I can find". That way, they would all "feel" the same. and would be closer in flexibility to each other.

 So one would be labeled "circle", "square", and "triangle".

 -Ed


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zachary80* 
_Sounds like a great dea, but the main problem will be deciding who is and isn't allowed to get the cables (and keeping track).

 I agree that people should not post there findings before everyone has had their turn. Maybe a good way would be to send all the information to an email address for safekeeping 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hmmmm. What does everyone think? 

 A. New thread once Test is out and about, where everyone posts whatever they want. Which symbol they like better, and why. Guessing as to which cable is what. I reveal which symbols are which cable when the Test is over and all the cables are back to me.

 B. New thread once Test is out and about , where everyone posts ONLY posts which order they prefer each cable. e.g. 1.Circle, 2.Square, 3.Triangle, or some standard format like that. I reveal which symbols are which cable when the Test is over and all the cables are back to me.

 C. This thread is closed, people email/PM me their results, and I post them when the Test is over and all cables are back to me, and reveal which symbols are which cable.

 D. This thread remains open, people email/PM me their results, and I post them when the Test is over and all cables are back to me. Everyone tries to refrain from mentioning specifics, like which symbol they like better and why. I reveal which symbols are which cable.

 -Ed


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## Earwax

I don't think people should post any results until everyone has had a chance to listen. I think there's too large a chance that seeing posts will influence the later testers. 

 I marked on poll that I'm interested, but I'd best warn you that I don't expect to hear any difference in your 2 cable types, though I've heard (or at least think I've heard) really bad thin plastic cables grunge up a system.


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## eric343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dane* 
_What is described here isn't a real blind test - the subject knows when the switch is done.

 A single blind test (which this is not) means that the subject doesn't know when the switch is done, but the assistent does.

 A real DBT means that both the subject and the assistent don't know what's going on. A third person is needed in this case._

 

So to do a true double blind test you'd need three people and at least three cables?

 The first person would build two identical and one different cables. The second would label them in series (colors or letters or something). The third would then listen and try to determine which cables are different and which are the same, and what the sonic qualities of each are.

 That way, the tester wouldn't know when he's switching (since he doesn't know which are the same) or what he's "supposed" to be hearing.


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## acs236

I'm in.


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## ooheadsoo

Definitely option C. We don't want any lemmingism at all showing up.


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## fewtch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Canman* 
_It is important to come up with a solid hypothesis so that the results are less arguable. The way I see it, a decent hypothesis is if a statistically significant majority is able to identify the correct interconnect, then there are audible differences between different conductor types (or just different cable)._

 

One test would not be enough to prove this... after all, suppose you tossed a coin and it came up heads 8/10 times... does it prove something?

 I'd say do this test on both coasts (as proposed) but use completely different colored cable jackets for each coast (e.g. blue and red on the West, green and orange on the East), gather the results, then do the test again -- swapping the cables between coasts! Then when it's all done, collate the results and make them available. IMO this would be a bit better than just a single test, although there's still an element of chance involved.


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## WmAx

Quote:


 I want to make two visually identical InterConnect's. Label one a generic "A" and the other "B". 
 


 I believe that modification of your methodology would yeild more valuable results then your initially proposed test format.

 I suggest use of an ABX-type of format. Make up at minimum 10 test sets of cables. Each set should be consist of 3 cable pairs. Pair A, Pair B and Pair X(control). The test subject will try to identify A or B to X. 30 pairs of cables may seem excessive at first mention, but this is needed in order to gather data of value, statistically, from a subject.

 Before you begin to ship out cables for testing, they should be shipped to a naysayer(if that's the nickname you feel is appropriate). This person will sort, seal and mark the cables. Record the cable ID data and keep data sealed until the test cycle is complete. Note: For maximally valuable data in this test, ABX cable order should be re-arranged for every test subject. This would at least minimize possible cheating(for example a test subject that figured out which cables were which by whichever manner and then shared this data with other test subjects, thus propogating more errors). Cables must be tamper proofed in some manner. But nothing is iron-clad. I'm sure their is still some way to find out materials, perhaps measuring the respective effects within a magnetic field, like a metal detector? Perhaps the cables can be encased within a copper mesh tubing, in order to make such a cheating method difficult? After test cycle is complete, results need to be observed, but not yet released. If a person scores a significantly high result, then they should be re-tested with teh cables re-arranged. This is due to statisical law. In a large number of subjects tested, a small percentage MUST score signficantly high scores. Just like if you flip a quarter enough times, eventually you will get 10 heads in a row. By submitting that person to another trial, you will confirm their results with much higher confidence.

 It MUST be noted that this test can not be scientifcally valid oustide of a controlled setting. Cheating/tampering with the test is still possible in this 'mail it around' method. IN addition, a switching system that allows the test subject to instantly change samples is needed in order to maximize sensitivity to small differences. A lab controlled test with postivie results, would be intriguing, though. 

 -Chris


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## meat01

The problem with doing the tests on both coasts and then swapping the cables is that you wouldn't get the results for a year. As it is, this test will take a while, and by the time the results are in, people may have forgotten about it.

 I think option D is the best, as I don't see any reason to close this thread. 

 I think this is a good test the way you have already described it, even though there may be chance involved. If I couldn't tell the difference, I would say so rather than claiming that I can tell which one is which, only to be wrong. If there truly is such a huge difference as some claim, then it should be easy for people to figure out which cable is silver. 

 You could A/B the cables and guess/claim which one is better, or you could have someone give you a blind test and see if you can tell which one is which (by color or symbol) 10 times out of 10.


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## Edwood

Uh, keep in mind that this little project is coming out of my pocket. Remember: Simple and Fun to start with. 
 I think six IC's (pairs) is enough for now. Three for each half of the USA. Depending on how it goes, we can expand worldwide from there. This test will take long enough for the USA as it is. 

 The A,B,X may be the best route to go. (I think symbols may work the best, I want to cables otherwise to look the same) THe "X" factor in this test will be the guts of the crappiest cable I can find. Or just really crappy wire, no fancy twisting/braiding or shielding. Any recommendations for the crappiest and cheapest I can use for X?

 -Ed


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## Ruahrc

Here's a suggestion for the "X" cable? Maybe go out and buy a common or popular cable (like a plain cheap RadioShack or Monster Cable or Acoustic Research) that the average guy would most likely buy if he were to enter a technology store like BB and get. That way we could see if it is possible to pick out the average cable from the good and/or silver one?

 It would really shed a lot of light on to whether or not "Generic brand X" cable you can buy at BB is really that much worse than "audiophile" cables.

 Just a thought

 Ruahrc


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WmAx* 
_Before you begin to ship out cables for testing, they should be shipped to a naysayer(if that's the nickname you feel is appropriate). This person will sort, seal and mark the cables. Record the cable ID data and keep data sealed until the test cycle is complete. Note: For maximally valuable data in this test, ABX cable order should be re-arranged for every test subject. Cables must be tamper proofed in some manner. But nothing is iron-clad. I'm sure their is still some way to find out materials, perhaps measuring the respective effects within a magnetic field, like a metal detector? Perhaps the cables can be encased within a copper mesh tubing, in order to make such a cheating method difficult? After test cycle is complete, results need to be observed, but not yet released. If a person scores a significantly high result, then they should be re-tested with teh cables re-arranged. This is due to statisical law. -Chris_

 

I guess that would make me the Nay Sayer as I won't be participating in the test, as I am the one making the cables and therefore I know which one is which. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you guys want, someone else can be the verification. (Naturally they can't be participating in the test either.) Where I would email/PM them the "secret" of which cable is which, right before I send them out. That way there is an additional witness, and you know I'm not lying about the results. When you guys PM your rankings/results, PM them to both me and the third party "Nay Sayer." (you can send the same PM's to up to five people now, by separating multiple user names with ';' )

 C'mon, guys. Some level of honesty and trust will have to take place here for two reasons. 

 1. Someone could always find out what's inside if they really wanted to. I don't think it should be necessary to encase the cables with lead for those with access to XRay machines. (so Radiologists and Airport security are out. heheh, just kidding) If you are someone that just can't resist spoiling it for everyone, don't participate.

 2. Someone decides to spoil it for everyone and just keep the cables and not pass them on. (for this, maybe it would be best to limit the test to those that have a positive feedback thread here, apologies to the newbies, this time) or it get's lost in the transit from the shipping, or they get run over by a tank.

 Try not to take this "Taste Test" too seriously, guys. I just want to provide a fun and simple test for those that want a semi controlled answer to the question: "Do cables really make a difference?" Without getting into a DBT flame fest.

 Who knows, maybe the results will be predictable or surprising. Either way, this is not a strict scientific test.

 -Ed


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ruahrc* 
_Here's a suggestion for the "X" cable? Maybe go out and buy a common or popular cable (like a plain cheap RadioShack or Monster Cable or Acoustic Research) that the average guy would most likely buy if he were to enter a technology store like BB and get. That way we could see if it is possible to pick out the average cable from the good and/or silver one?

 It would really shed a lot of light on to whether or not "Generic brand X" cable you can buy at BB is really that much worse than "audiophile" cables.

 Just a thought

 Ruahrc_

 

Good idea.

 How about the cheapest Rat Shack cables? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Like the crappy stock ones you get included with cheap "hifi" equipment. 

 -Ed


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## Edwood

Can someone change the Title of this thread to:
*In Home, Chain Mailing, One Person "Blind Cable Taste Test" *

 ?

 Uh, I guess Jude is the only moderator here? 

 Since this test is not a DBT. I had the wrong definition there.

 -Ed


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## ooheadsoo

Ed, after you make the 3 identical cable pairs, you could then bundle them together and swap them around until you don't know which is which any more. Then you could come out and play too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Only thing is, the last person in the test would have to mail the ic's back to you for your dissection 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think the thread should be closed because people might let something slip if they get too excited. I also don't want people saying, "well i think one cable sounds like this, and another sounds like that, this one kinda sucks." Even though they don't say which is which, people will start to think one sounds this way, the other that way etc etc.


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## WmAx

Quote:


 Try not to take this "Taste Test" too seriously, guys. I just want to provide a fun and simple test for those that want a semi controlled answer to the question: "Do cables really make a difference?" Without getting into a DBT flame fest. 
 

I apologize for my presumption. I mistakenly thought this was a serious attempt at testing.

 -Chris


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## halcyon

EdWood,

 great idea!

 Can I offer my personal suggestions. Discard/use as you see fit, these are just IMHO(TM):

 - Forget the demands for scientific validity. It's not possible to do it without for paid researchers and a controlled test environment. Also, there's always a possibility of cheating. Make this fun and learning experience, not an exercise in pseudo-science. Most of the advice for "scientific" methodology in this thread are completely wrong, btw 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - Don't try to statistically analyze the results. As long as the test method is not scientific, neither is the statistical results, regardless of how they are analyzed. This doesn't mean we can't all learn by listening and have some fun while we do it.

 - To keep it simple. I'd also recommend three cables: one "great" cable, one "standard" cable and one "crap". It's easier to define "standard"as : the basic "comes with a japanese integrated component, unshielded black thin cord with red/white connectors". The "crap" cable could be a cable that is truly so abysmal that it even measures differently in the audio band. This should be the easiest cable to spot (in theory).

 - Defining "great" cable is going to be difficult. I suggest not only using a good wire, but also good dielectric and good connectors (both matter electrically for capacitance). It's going to be harder making a cable like that AND disguising it to look like all the rest, though.

 - If you can, try making the weight and bending of the cables roughly equal, if you so desire. Visually of course, it'd be nice if they were pretty similar (inside a cloth of some sort).

 - Make it known from the start that it is not possible to prove something does not exist with a limited set of experiments (refer to a standard text on philosophy of science). Further, Just because the results of the test will be X, it doesn't mean X is the universal truth and everybody should bow to it. 

 I'm all for a test that people can personally use to test their own hearing/gear/opinions.

 However, if one wants to go for a scientific test, I'd suggest contacting an experimental psychology professor well versed in sensory testing methodologies and working further from there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If one wants to cater to the home-grown pseudo-science crowd, then there are a couple of forums good for those, but their names don't start with head-fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cheers,
 Halcyon


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## SunByrne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ruahrc* 
_Here's a suggestion for the "X" cable? Maybe go out and buy a common or popular cable (like a plain cheap RadioShack or Monster Cable or Acoustic Research) that the average guy would most likely buy if he were to enter a technology store like BB and get. That way we could see if it is possible to pick out the average cable from the good and/or silver one?

 It would really shed a lot of light on to whether or not "Generic brand X" cable you can buy at BB is really that much worse than "audiophile" cables._

 

I personally like this suggestion a lot--this would be much more interesting than making one of the cables a "worst case" scenario. I bet even most of the naysayers (myself included) have something at least at this level.

 I would love to participate, and I think it's a great fun idea. Perfect empirical validity? Of course not--but fun and interesting nonetheless.

 And to *halcyon*: I'm an experimental psychology professor and I teach statistics at the graduate level. As pointed out, this isn't going to be perfect, but it's not like the goal here is a refereed journal article. This would certainly not pass muster, but we can still have some fun with it, and aren't hobbies supposed to be fun?

 And to *WmAx*: relax a little. No, it's not a completely serious attempt (maybe semi-serious) and nobody's going to put up a lab for it (I certainly won't), but that doesn't mean there's no value whatsoever. Entertainment has value, and I think it would be entertaining to find some "true believers" faced with the fact that they really can't tell the difference or, conversely, some skeptics who can. I just wonder how many "true believers" will sign up.


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## Edwood

Yeah, whoever said that those Coke vs Pepsi taste tests were scientific? But there's something compelling about the two plain white dixie cups full of two identical looking liquids, and not knowing which one is which.

 That's what inspired to me to come up with this test.

 -Ed


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## meat01

Quote:


 And to WmAx: relax a little. No, it's not a completely serious attempt (maybe semi-serious) and nobody's going to put up a lab for it (I certainly won't), but that doesn't mean there's no value whatsoever. Entertainment has value, and I think it would be entertaining to find some "true believers" faced with the fact that they really can't tell the difference or, conversely, some skeptics who can. I just wonder how many "true believers" will sign up. 
 

He did relax. He apologized, when he realized that he misunderstood the purpose of the test.


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## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_That could be part of the fun. Bandwagon jumping? I think I may label them by symbols rather than numbers or letters. Maybe one is "circle" and the other "square" or maybe "triangle".

 I'm thinking maybe a wild card could be thrown in here. Maybe there could be three IC's.

 1. Cotton insulated 20awg 99.99% Solid silver 
 2. Canare Starquad (should I terminate it half balanced? Ground the shield braid?)
 3. The guts of the crappiest cable I can find

 I bought some PVC tubing to play with today. The silver "twisted pair" just barely fits (the cotton is pretty thick). I think it may be a good idea to put the "guts" of the Canare Starquad inside the same PVC tubing, and like wise with the "crappiest cable I can find". That way, they would all "feel" the same. and would be closer in flexibility to each other.

 So one would be labeled "circle", "square", and "triangle".

 -Ed_

 

Wouldn't you have to make them approximately the same weight, thickness and stiffness to stop folks from guessing what might be inside..? Just a thought after reading that the silver one only just fit into the tubing...


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## eric343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WmAx* 
_I'm sure their is still some way to find out materials, perhaps measuring the respective effects within a magnetic field, like a metal detector? Perhaps the cables can be encased within a copper mesh tubing, in order to make such a cheating method difficult?_

 

I once did something like this with the Virtual Dynamics Nite cables, using a CT scanner: http://www.audiogeek.net/images/nite/

 A copper shield wouldn't help (you can see right through the shielding) -- you'd need lead.


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ipodstudio* 
_Wouldn't you have to make them approximately the same weight, thickness and stiffness to stop folks from guessing what might be inside..? Just a thought after reading that the silver one only just fit into the tubing..._

 

I'm going to make them feel very similar. I won't say anymore. If people are going to spend more time trying to find ways to dissect the cables or use XRays or CT scans rather than just using them in their system and listening, then this test is pointless. 

 -Ed


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## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_I'm going to make them feel very similar. I won't say anymore. If people are going to spend more time trying to find ways to dissect the cables or use XRays or CT scans rather than just using them in their system and listening, then this test is pointless. 

 -Ed_

 

LOL!! I can see everyone sat there with microscopes and mini X-ray machines, trying to figure out which one that ruddy silver one is..


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## eric343

A microscope would be pretty useless... though someone might try to bring in a friend of theirs from the CIA that specializes in flaps & seals work!


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eric343* 
_A microscope would be pretty useless... though someone might try to bring in a friend of theirs from the CIA that specializes in flaps & seals work! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 LOL, I'm gonna use Heavy Wall Adhesive Heatshrink to seal the connectors to the cable and Multifilament Nylon Techflex, which does not easily separate like standard techflex. When stretched taut, it barely even leaks light when you put it up to the light.

 No fiberoptic scopes either, guys. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


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## tomek

i also like the idea of 3 cables, one of them being completely terrible, measurably bad so that we have some sort of baseline to work with.

 the data will mean a lot more to me if the someone can't pick out any cables at all including the one that is measurably bad, while those that can pick that one out can also pick out the other ones.


----------



## eric343

3M EPS-300 double wall adhesive heatshrink? Like the stuff you can find on eBay and Digikey and... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 And you forgot to protect against TDR testing... though I don't think you can, since all you gotta do is plug in the cable


----------



## The_Mac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eric343* 
_3M EPS-300 double wall adhesive heatshrink? Like the stuff you can find on eBay and Digikey and... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











 And you forgot to protect against TDR testing... though I don't think you can, since all you gotta do is plug in the cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

He could always just terminate them properly, but then that would just defeat the purpose of the test, now wouldn't it?

 Good idea by the way edwood, if you ever decide to extend the range of the test to include the center of the continent, I'd love to give them a listen. I'm right near detroit, so it's a short mail from them to me to them, or even to get the cables up to Waterloo or Toronto.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eric343* 
_3M EPS-300 double wall adhesive heatshrink? Like the stuff you can find on eBay and Digikey and... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 And you forgot to protect against TDR testing... though I don't think you can, since all you gotta do is plug in the cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Digikey lists EPS-300 as thin wall? I have tons of that stuff, but I ordered some thick wall from McMasterCarr. I hope it's good stuff, it was the only place I could find thick wall adhesive 3:1 in any color other than black. Heheh, they had Red. Wooooo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Uh, how do I protect against TDR? 
 You're not allowed to post anything about these cables when you see them, Eric. you're gonna spoil it for everyone. You'll probably be able to tell just by looking at them with your XRay vision. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OK, let me repeat. NO TEST EQUIPMENT! USE YOUR OWN GEAR AND YOUR OWN EARS. If you really must use test equipment out of your own curiosity, please keep it to yourself and don't post anything about it until AFTER the results are revealed.

 -Ed


----------



## halcyon

Ah, the audio gods must be angry at me. My 2nd post here got zapped. No worry, I'm back in line and won't argument about test methodologies anymore 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 regards,
 halcyon

 PS Decided to organize a local test with my own test control parameters. Thanks for the idea!


----------



## ipodstudio

Perhaps we could pay the cost of a duplicate set of cables which we could send round the guys here in Europe. Then the cables wouldn't be going back and forth over several continents. I actually think it's important that we try to involve everyone who's interested in such projects, regardless of their geographical location, if it's at all doable. Shipping is just a small obstacle that's easily overcome.
 Question is if Ed has the time and will to make a duplicate set? I'm in too and will gladly contribute a few bucks to towards the costs.


----------



## lan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_OK, let me repeat. NO TEST EQUIPMENT! USE YOUR OWN GEAR AND YOUR OWN EARS. If you really must use test equipment out of your own curiosity, please keep it to yourself and don't post anything about it until AFTER the results are revealed._

 

Ok, I'll keep my dog (if I had one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) out of the room. He can probably hear and smell the difference. But seriously, does anyone have an audiophile pet? I think I'll start a thread in general discussion about this....


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The_Mac* 
_He could always just terminate them properly, but then that would just defeat the purpose of the test, now wouldn't it?_

 

Terminate them properly?
 Is there a better way than solder?

 -Ed


----------



## eric343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_Digikey lists EPS-300 as thin wall? I have tons of that stuff, but I ordered some thick wall from McMasterCarr. I hope it's good stuff, it was the only place I could find thick wall adhesive 3:1 in any color other than black. Heheh, they had Red. Wooooo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 EPS-200 is the thin wall, EPS-300 is the thick wall stuff... Quote:


 Uh, how do I protect against TDR? 
 You're not allowed to post anything about these cables when you see them, Eric. you're gonna spoil it for everyone. You'll probably be able to tell just by looking at them with your XRay vision. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

Well, I generally don't tell people about the XRay vision.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eric343* 
_Well, I generally don't tell people about the XRay vision. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You're gonna have a lot of fun in college. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 XRay vision or not.........
 -Ed


----------



## eric343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_You're gonna have a lot of fun in college. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 XRay vision or not.........
 -Ed_

 

Believe me, I'm going to enjoy every minute of it


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eric343* 
_Believe me, I'm going to enjoy every minute of it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Speaking of which, give us a little more notice when you need a place to stay down here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

ARGH!

 OK that's the last time I order from McMasterCarr. This is the second order they screwed up. The heatshrink is waaaaaay too huge.

 Plus they have left out a couple when I ordered more than one. It's all going back. 

 I guess I'll try Digikey this time.

 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eric343* 
_EPS-200 is the thin wall, EPS-300 is the thick wall stuff..._

 

Digikey lists them both as Thin wall. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyone know where to buy 3:1 Shrink thick wall adhesive heatshrink in the 3/4" variety?

 -Ed


----------



## eric343

What size did you order? For most RCA connectors, 1/2" is fine (that's what I use).

 I'm not sure if EPS-300 is 3:1, but (speaking as someone who has used both EPS-200, EPS-300, and brand-X heatshrink), it's definitely thick wall.

 I would suggest you just get EPS-300 and be done with it...

 You can get good prices on EPS-300 if you go on eBay.
http://search.ebay.com/eps-300_W0QQf...wordredirectZ1

 Fuseguy224 (the guy that's selling all the stuff) has always been an excellent seller to deal with.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eric343* 
_What size did you order? For most RCA connectors, 1/2" is fine (that's what I use).

 I'm not sure if EPS-300 is 3:1, but (speaking as someone who has used both EPS-200, EPS-300, and brand-X heatshrink), it's definitely thick wall.

 I would suggest you just get EPS-300 and be done with it...

 You can get good prices on EPS-300 if you go on eBay.
http://search.ebay.com/eps-300_W0QQf...wordredirectZ1

 Fuseguy224 (the guy that's selling all the stuff) has always been an excellent seller to deal with._

 

Yeah, I looked it up on 3M's site. Digikey has the description wrong.

 I'm using Neutrik ProFi connectors. Will 1/2" fit over the whole shell, or should I get 3/4"?

 -Ed


----------



## bangraman

As someone attempting comparisons but without the Blind, I'd be curious about the outcome.


 Could I also make a suggestion? Why not three sets, of which two would be the same?


----------



## The_Mac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_Terminate them properly?
 Is there a better way than solder?

 -Ed_

 

I meant by placing appropriate resistors on either end such that the cable looks transparent when using TDR. The resistors eliminate the vast majority of the differences between cables, and would be a bad idea for this test (unless you only did it to one cable)

 For a much better explaination read Kevin Gilmore's Dynahi thread in the DIY forum where he and Eric start getting into the technical bits. (I've got a vague grasp, they're masters at this stuff)


----------



## eric343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The_Mac* 
_I meant by placing appropriate resistors on either end such that the cable looks transparent when using TDR. The resistors eliminate the vast majority of the differences between cables, and would be a bad idea for this test (unless you only did it to one cable)

 For a much better explaination read Kevin Gilmore's Dynahi thread in the DIY forum where he and Eric start getting into the technical bits. (I've got a vague grasp, they're masters at this stuff)_

 

Unfortunately, terminating the cables like this would cause there to be a noticeable attenuation in one cable when used with most sources (if you did it to only one cable), making it quite obvious which one was "supposed to be" better.


----------



## Edwood

OK, I have most of the parts needed.

 Anyone know of a place that sells Neutrik Profi's cheaper than Markertek?

 Buying six pairs of those things is getting pricey.....

 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

Mwahahahaha. I got a hold of some cheap Radio Shack IC's I'm going to salvage the wires from. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Still need to find a cheaper source for the Neutrik Profi's to make the East Coast set.

 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

OK, I realize this is nearly one year, later, but I'm the ultimate procrastinator. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 From left to right. Rat Shack Cable, 22AWG Teflon insulated Solid Silver, and Canare Starquad L-4E6S





 I have all the raw materials for the first (and maybe only) set.


 The cables are almost finished. I will be starting a new thread with a sign up, along with rules and directions.

 -Ed


----------



## ayt999

you are making them so they look and feel exactly the same right?

 where did you get the silver wire from?

 I'll be waiting for the sign-up list... hope shipping those wouldn't cost much. I hate paying for shipping.


----------



## Edwood

Left over fine silver wire. Don't remember if it's from Homegrown Audio or from the batch I bought from Hoover and Strong.

 As for shipping, I was thinking of the "Pay it Foward" policy. I'll start off by shipping to the first person (or more likely handing them off to a SoCal Head-fier first) and then each person ships it to next person and so on and so forth.

 I'm going to try to make the packaging easy to repackage and cheap to ship. Probably shipping should be at the least Priority USPS, which will run about $4.30 with delivery confirmation. So if you'd rather ship via FedEx or UPS, through work or something, it's entirely up to you, as long as the shipment is trackable.

 -Ed


----------



## ayt999

Hoover and Strong does teflon coating? I wasn't aware of that. how was the Hoover and Strong ordering process?


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ayt999* 
_Hoover and Strong does teflon coating? I wasn't aware of that. how was the Hoover and Strong ordering process?_

 

Nope, I bought bare silver wire and teflon tubing from somewhere else (Action Electronics, I think). Then threaded the silver wire in the teflon tubing myself.

 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

The cables are nearly complete.

 Working out the eligibility, rules, distribution methodolgy, etc. 

 I will start a new thread to start the sign up roster.

 Please no PM's, I'd like to keep it within that (future) thread.

 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

Cables are completed.

 -Ed


----------



## ooheadsoo

Very nice, looks great, Ed.


----------



## Feanor

Great project, I dont know how I missed this one. This is the ultimate cable test . I dont know if this has been posted before, but if people post their impressions here before the others have finished, then the test loses some of its "blindness" (if forum member X says the triangle cable sounds so and so, how would it be different from the cable having cardas printed on it? ). Maybe they should email the impressions to you, so you can reveal them in the end. Triple thumbs up on the idea! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 EDIT: yep, post 16 has me beaten.


----------



## Edwood

Rules, Eligibility, and Sign up thread has been posted.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...31#post1350131

 -Ed


----------



## xlEnt

can i be first to buy the winning IC from you at the end of this test ^_^


----------



## Mr.Radar

EDIT: Whoops, double post. Delete this please.


----------



## Mr.Radar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xlEnt* 
_can i be first to buy the winning IC from you at the end of this test ^_^_

 

The whole point of this test is to see whether or not its worth it to buy _any_ expensive ICs at all, not to find the best-sounding one (although that'll be the byproduct of this test if in fact differences between the cables can be heard).

 Also, thanks Edwood for giving the audio community a test like this! I'm pretty sure that nothing like this has ever been attempted before, and if many people get the same (or completely different) results it could completely change the face of cable debates, not only on Head-Fi but in the whole audiophile community (because it'll be performed not by one or two people in one or two systems but by many people in many systems so the results can't be dismissed as easily).


----------



## PhilS

I think this is a great idea, a neat experiment, and I support it 100%. Can't wait to hear the results and the endles debate that will probably ensue. However . . . , if the plan is for each participant to say which cable they think is which, I'm not sure that answers some of the more significant and hotly debated issues about cables. In particular, how does this address the issue of whether some cables sound different in different systems? For example, if Fred says he thinks the diamond cable is the silver conductor, and the circle cable is the RS, and the square cable is the Canare, but John says the diamond cable is the RS, and the circle is the Canare, and the square is the silver, what does that tend to establish? Does it establish that people really can't tell one cable from another, or just that the same type of cable might sound different in different systems, depending on system synergy? And does it prove that cables don't sound differently from one another? I wouldn't think so. I mean wouldn't such test results be entirely consistent with the notion that each cable sounds differently, but that the diamond cable is the most revealing in Fred's system, and the sqaure is most revealing in John's system (assuming they both decide to pick the cable that sounds most revealing as the silver one, which is another assumption that might not prove correct)? And what happens if a number of folks say, that they heard differences between cables, but that they can't identify which is the silver conductor, etc.?

 I apologize if I missed something obvious, but I'm just trying to understand how the parameters and purposes of the test match up to what the results might be. Please no flames, I really am curious about this will work.

 And Ed, thanks for all the work you've done to make this experiment a reality. It will be interesting no matter what the results are.


----------



## Edwood

This test is even more basic than that. It is more or less a personal test. 

 The differences in sound between silver and copper have been debated for quite some time. 

 So this test specifically focuses on whether materials alone make a better sounding cable or controlled manufacturing and design.

 As a wild card, I threw in the crappiest cable I could find into the mix.

 But remember, this is a *private* test. As stated in the Rules, I will not be posting names. Only final numbered results.

 If this test turns into a heated flame fest, it will be the end of it.

 So, remember! Have fun, and trust your own ears....... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 -Ed


----------



## Mr.Radar

I have one question: how long are the cables?


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.Radar* 
_I have one question: how long are the cables?_

 

1 meter each.

 -Ed


----------



## remilard

To address the concern raised in the other thread, this isn't a single blind test let alone double blind so it shouldn't be a problem.

 I do think the test has an inherent bias (not intentional). If everyone prefers the same cable people will tend to believe that is proof that cable differences are tangible, if everything prefers a cable, but not one cable in particular, people will tend to believe that cable differences are tangible and chalk the results up to differing personal tastes.

 That being said, if a lot of the participants (say 8/10) prefer the same cable I would personally consider that to be compelling (in a non statistical non scientific way) evidence that the differences are tangible.

 The best thing about this test is that it seems to avoid all the criticisms of DBT while still preventing participants from having some idea of which cable "ought" to sound better.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *remilard* 
_The best thing about this test is that it seems to avoid all the criticisms of DBT while still preventing participants from having some idea of which cable "ought" to sound better._

 

Bingo! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


----------



## Tim D

You aren't being evil enough in this test 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The test should have some sort of control set (i.e. there should be 4 pairs of cables, with 2 pairs being of same construction, making 2 pairs the same, and the other 2 different).

 I'm not gonna have a rod up my butt and complain why this or that doesn't make it a perfect DBT or administered test, but I do think by throwing in at least 2 pairs that are the same you can get more significant results with low sampling (i.e. see if anyone can identify the pairs that are of same construction). Then again maybe you are beyond evil and you are telling us false information from the get go about the 3 pairs being different... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (the fact that only *you* really know the test methodology regardless of what you *say* it is does in a way make it dbt with the administrater and user being one in the same 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).


----------



## Edwood

Yes, the thought had crossed my mind. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I decided to throw in a "wild card" cable instead.

 -Ed


----------



## eric343

Nice job on the cables, by the way. The construction looks solid.


----------



## rodbac

Nice work on the manufacturing side, there- looks great.

 A couple of things keep running through my mind, though, as I'm thinking about this:

 Did your cables measure the same electrically?

 What makes you think anybody _won't_ report a difference that did before with their own cables? I'm not sure how this is different than someone sitting down with their Acme cable and their Cardas Ubar Cable 5000 and giving them a listen.

 I mean no offense with any of these questions- if any of them sound antagonistic, it's not my intent.


----------



## Jon L

This thread put a smile on my face 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Based on my experience with Canare wire, Rat Shack wire, and solid core silver, I"m absolutely sure any of the 3 types of wire can be made to sound "best" depending on cable design. One would be very wrong to assume the more expensive wire or silver will automatically sound better.

 For example, when 2 cables are constructed with exact same geometry, dielectric, jacketing, AWG, solid core/stranded, only difference being copper vs. silver, then one can make certain predictions. In this case, yes I would bet good amount of my own money that I will be able to identify the different cables. 

 The way this test is set up, it is not going to be pretty...


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rodbac* 
_Nice work on the manufacturing side, there- looks great.

 A couple of things keep running through my mind, though, as I'm thinking about this:

 Did your cables measure the same electrically?

 What makes you think anybody won't report a difference that did before with their own cables? I'm not sure how this is different than someone sitting down with their Acme cable and their Cardas Ubar Cable 5000 and giving them a listen.

 I mean no offense with any of these questions- if any of them sound antagonistic, it's not my intent._

 

The point is to use your ears not test equipment to try to *hear* the difference.

 For more info, read the Rules section of the Sign Up thread.

 -Ed


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Ed, I know it's a little late but having a pure copper RCA in the test set (Kimber TCSS?) to see if copper purity and a nicer dielectric would be preferable to the test members.


----------



## rodbac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_The point is to use your ears not test equipment to try to *hear* the difference.

 For more info, read the Rules section of the Sign Up thread.

 -Ed_

 

I read both threads.

 I'm only thinking of saving some grief, but if you're confident, I'm confident. You know that's the first place people will start questioning, though (was one mis-soldered or something along those lines).

 Also, thinking about the possible results you get back- what are you hoping to discern from them? What are you hoping listeners will get out of this that they couldn't have gotten without your admirable effort?


----------



## Jeff E

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_...
 everyone tries them out for a week and posts which one they like better...
 So here's a chance to prove whether or not you can hear the difference between cables.
 -Ed_

 


 Help me think through the research design. For the proposed study's outcome to demonstrate that we can perceive the difference between the sound of cables I believe that an additional factor is required. Suppose that roughly 1/3 vote for each cable. How can we tell whether folks: 1)hear differences but disagree in their sound preferences or 2) can't hear a difference but believe they can and express what amounts to a random choice? On the other hand, if the votes are clearly not equally distributed, that would show we can distinguish the cables' sound. For this result, we not only would have to need to be able to hear the differences but we would also have to concur in our preferences. Am I understanding the study correctly?


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jeff E* 
_Help me think through the research design. For the proposed study's outcome to demonstrate that we can perceive the difference between the sound of cables I believe that an additional factor is required. Suppose that roughly 1/3 vote for each cable. How can we tell whether folks: 1)hear differences but disagree in their sound preferences or 2) can't hear a difference but believe they can and express what amounts to a random choice? On the other hand, if the votes are clearly not equally distributed, that would show we can distinguish the cables' sound. For this result, we not only would have to need to be able to hear the differences but we would also have to concur in our preferences. Am I understanding the study correctly?_

 

Yes.







 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

All packed up and shipped out to the first tester.

 One week until the next person.

 Sign up here: http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=116203

 -Ed


----------



## eric343

Where is the ordered list of where it's going to go?
 As it stands, us Seattlites are separated out, when it would make more sense to hand the cables off in Seattle and avoid shipping.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eric343* 
_Where is the ordered list of where it's going to go?
 As it stands, us Seattlites are separated out, when it would make more sense to hand the cables off in Seattle and avoid shipping._

 

List is coming up soon. Will be changing as more people sign up. 

 Cables are starting with Iron_Dreamer, as I handed them off to him today after a Mini-Meet we had. So it starts in the Southern California area (where I live), then will make it's way north to Northern California. 

 Next State will probably be Washington, depending on how many sign up. 

 It may end up ZigZagging back and forth from State to State depending on the sign up. 

 While I would've preferred to send the cables out after sign up was complete, I decided to give them a head start to get things going. So, the list will be growing while the cables are in transit. I will make the cut off when there are enough people and the total wait time is reasonable. 

 So what say you, guys? How long would you guys be willing to wait until the last person is done? This will determine how many will be participating from the start.

 -Ed


----------



## meat01

In previous pass arounds on different forums, this process always takes longer than expected, because people will no doubt keep them for longer than a week, because of unforseen reasons they could not make it to a post office. Sometimes people are out of town when the package arrives and don't get to it for a few days or a week. I am not trying to be negative, this is just a fact of life with group pass arounds. If people could really try hard to keep them no longer than 1 week, it would increase the number of participants that get to listen. If there were only 10 people, it would take at least 3 months for them to listen. Just something to think about.


----------



## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_So what say you, guys? How long would you guys be willing to wait until the last person is done? This will determine how many will be participating from the start._

 

3 months would be nice, but I don't think that's long enough to even cover the people who have already signed up. 6 months maybe? I think I'd lose interest by the time a year went by, but I think my interest level will vary depending on how much difference I can hear between the cables!

 That is, if I'm in the test...am I in? I signed up...when are you going to post the list?


----------



## JohnFerrier

Is there another thread with the results?


----------



## Edwood

Test is still going on. 

 -Ed


----------



## Mat347

Awesome idea! I just read thru this for the first time. Awesome info to know for someone just getting into this. Thanks for your effort!


----------



## robzy

I just want to point out that impressions should not be posted publicly! They should be PMed to one member and kept quiet.

 This is to stop bias of the next people after reading others reviews.

 (This may have already been said, but just incase...)

 Rob.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robzy* 
_I just want to point out that impressions should not be posted publicly! They should be PMed to one member and kept quiet.

 This is to stop bias of the next people after reading others reviews.

 (This may have already been said, but just incase...)

 Rob._

 

Yes results are anonymous and PM'd to me only.

 -Ed


----------



## dogthinker

How this going? Do we have an approximate ETA on the results?


----------



## LFF

I think the cables went MIA.


----------



## dogthinker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LFF* 
_I think the cables went MIA. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Really, that's terribly unfortunate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They were supposed to be shipped registered at every point... Well, if they are somehow MIA, then surely the experiment should end and the results (limited as they may be) shared? It'd be a shame to waste the time, effort and money invested.


----------



## Edwood

The cables are still accounted for. The last person on the list has them. There were a few people that "went to the end of the line" and delayed their turn due to schedule reasons (school, vacation, work, etc.).

 So those few remaining people are going to be contacted soon to see if they are still interested in participating.

 Yeah, it's gone waaaaaaay overtime, but it's almost over! 

 -Ed


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Wow, It's been so long I had completely forgotten about this test 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looking forward to the results.


----------



## tyrion

I have them. They are boxed up and ready to go. Send me a pm if you want them and I will ship in the next day or two.


----------



## ilovesocks

Oh boy! Please make a big deal of the results when they're posted!


----------



## Danamr

I am very interested in hearing the results.


----------



## d-cee

this is huge! nice work Edward... cannot wait for the results

 approx how long to go?


----------



## gsteinb88

Two years in the making, damn. Looks like it should turn out some interesting results though, although they may not be conclusive...
 -g


----------



## Phil Ramsay

With the answer this long in the making it will probably be '42', or something like that... 

 Actually, I hope it works out - I would like to l would like to know the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. Or at least a question on many Head-Fi'ers minds.


----------



## Sovkiller

We want to hear the results man???


----------



## iSleipnir

I rarely check this forum so I hope I don't miss it! Very good idea, I've been waiting for the results for this for a long time, I can't wait to see what happens.


----------



## Filburt

I would like to try this as well. I know people talk about cables making a huge difference in some cases. My personal tests have not shown such results, and yet as I understand it, there are plausible explanations for why cables can affect sound. As such, I am curious about this endeavour. I'd be willing to try them out, too, although I am guessing people are really anxious to have some closure


----------



## digitalcat

As a statistician, I could attach a p-value to the blind test and report it to FDA, then they could approve the $$$ cable...or not.


----------



## threepointone

whooooaaaaaaaa came across this on a search. Two years????????????????? wayyy longer than i've been on head-fi. 

 I'm interested in the results, too. How close is this to finishing???


----------



## JJ15k

each time I see this thread bumped, I long for the results, stop!


----------



## mofey

I wanna know, too


----------



## device manager

Who dropped the ball?


----------



## 003

You know, I hope this isn't threadcraping, but if somebody wanted to cheat they could still do it fairly easily. All they would have to do is get an electronc balance, and see which cable weighs more. Then, find the density of microphone cable and silver, and whichever had a higher density would be the heavier one.


----------



## threEchelon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *003* 
_You know, I hope this isn't threadcraping, but if somebody wanted to cheat they could still do it fairly easily. All they would have to do is get an electronc balance, and see which cable weighs more. Then, find the density of microphone cable and silver, and whichever had a higher density would be the heavier one._

 

Shhhh...

 (Or you could just measure impedance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## JJ15k

This test was based on people s good will, it couldn t have been done beter with the means available


----------



## Samgotit

Edwood states in his first post that he believes this will be "fun". That's it. He says nothing about an attempt to try to publish this in _The Journal of Interconnect Physics_





. I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe this constitutes "proof" whatever the results. 

 There are obvious flaws with the test. I'm still dying to see the results.

  Quote:


 So here's a chance to prove whether or not you can hear the difference between cables. 
 

This IMO tells me he's doing this for the individual. 

 But, if anyone points to these results as "proof", either side, the gloves are off.

 [size=large]So... c'mon where's the bloody results![/size]


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## 909

The cables arrived today. Thanks Ed for putting this experiment together and Thaddy for shipping them and giving me the tracking number too.


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## Edwood

Wow. This first run of the test is almost done. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyone know of a good site that will make nice bar graphs or pie charts? I want to make a nice graphic show of the results for you all.

 -Ed


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## Todd R

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_Wow. This first run of the test is almost done. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyone know of a good site that will make nice bar graphs or pie charts? I want to make a nice graphic show of the results for you all.

 -Ed_

 

If you have MS Office just use Excel. Make a spread sheet then from that you can generate graphs & charts. 
 TR


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## Thaddy

And if you don't have M$ Office, check out OpenOffice.org.


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## threEchelon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_Wow. This first run of the test is almost done. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyone know of a good site that will make nice bar graphs or pie charts? I want to make a nice graphic show of the results for you all.

 -Ed_

 

You could also downoad the office 2007 beta and run it it compatibility mode. Just save the document as an excel 1997-2003 spreadsheet before you start doing work. That should put it into compatibility mode.


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## threepointone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_Wow. This first run of the test is almost done. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyone know of a good site that will make nice bar graphs or pie charts? I want to make a nice graphic show of the results for you all.

 -Ed_

 

_first run_? there's gonna be a second one?????
 hmmm. . .another two years


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## Edwood

I have Office XP, I'll try to use it.

 Thanks everyone.


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## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_I have Office XP, I'll try to use it._

 

I'll give you a full blast of Excel how-to


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## Sovkiller

RESULTS!!!!!!!


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## hembergler

Yes please.


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## chesebert

I can't wait any longer! PLZ


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## studeb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_Wow. This first run of the test is almost done. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyone know of a good site that will make nice bar graphs or pie charts? I want to make a nice graphic show of the results for you all.

 -Ed_

 

you could post the raw data open for others to analyse also, i could run it through Prism, has better stats and graphing package than XL


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *studeb* 
_you could post the raw data open for others to analyse also, i could run it through Prism, has better stats and graphing package than XL_

 


 I can post the raw data. (No names, though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) if you could run it through that program, that would be great.


 -Ed


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* 
_I can't wait any longer! PLZ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Just wait a little bit longer....


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## Filburt

Are you going to have another test? I'd definitely like to participate if you do.


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## studeb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_I can post the raw data. (No names, though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) if you could run it through that program, that would be great.


 -Ed_

 


 check your PM


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## Hi-Finthen

For the results of this effort!!!

 Thanx Edwood...


 ///How about now.....? July 1///


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## d-cee

nudge =)


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## 003

Results?


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## Hi-Finthen

...HELLO,,,,IS THIS THING ON;-}

 Please kindly sir


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## Snake




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## mofey




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## Hi-Finthen




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## daba

What's the hold up here? Ed, if you want I can tabulate results for you in SPSS.


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## Hi-Finthen

Pleanty of issues are surely more important, like health of himself or family.....Or a hundred other reasons of priority.

 Best-


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## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *daba* 
_What's the hold up here? Ed, if you want I can tabulate results for you in SPSS._

 

I just checked this thread today... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am the hold up. Not Ed's fault at all, but completely mine. The cables will be shipped back to Edwood today and I'll let Ed know my selections. I do apologize. This isn’t the norm for me to lag, but the last few weeks have been an extremely busy time for me. Sorry for the inconvenience.


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## MasiveMunkey

I wish I would have gotten in on this. Seems pretty interesting. Round 2?


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## Edwood

I'm out of town right now.

 Check out my "Puppy-Fi" thread to find out why. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ugh, the Arizona heat is killin me. Bleh.

 I'll be adding up the results after I get home.

 -Ed


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## gevorg

Are you home yet?


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## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* 
_Are you home yet? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think Ed's home.

 And the delivery confirmation indicates Ed received the cables on Saturday (7/15).

 I can't wait to know which cable was which...


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## yellafella321

Oh wow, this thread looks incredibly interesting! Can't wait to hear the results!


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## Edwood

Insanely busy right now.

 Between a last minute rush job for a client and trying to housebreak the new dog, I'm very tired. Ugh. I'll try to add up all the numbers this weekend.

 But the test is done! Can you believe it?

 -Ed


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## d-cee

yayyy \o/


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## digitalmind

This is going to be very interesting. Great project! It went on for more than two years. I can't wait to see the results.


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## Mevunky

Waiting waiting we are all waiting patiently


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## daba

Speaking of going on for two years... perhaps next time, if something similar should be tested, it would be held at a large meet? Subjects would listen to various cables in a quiet setting as a double blind test. Then they would rate the cables on some sort of scale or similar.

 The said cables would then be transported to another large meet... etc.

 It would be quite interesting, and much more expedient than sending them to individuals.


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *daba* 
_Speaking of going on for two years... perhaps next time, if something similar should be tested, it would be held at a large meet? Subjects would listen to various cables in a quiet setting as a double blind test. Then they would rate the cables on some sort of scale or similar.

 The said cables would then be transported to another large meet... etc.

 It would be quite interesting, and much more expedient than sending them to individuals._

 


 A meeting is by far one of the worst environments to evaluate subtle differences in cables, there is to much noise around and people always tend to blame the system and the synergy and blah blah blah......so not sure if this kind of solution will be better at the end, right now they have no excuse to be wrong or right, as they had the cables in the system they are used to listen...


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## 003

So where the heck are the results?


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## daba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_A meeting is by far one of the worst environments to evaluate subtle differences in cables, there is to much noise around and people always tend to blame the system and the synergy and blah blah blah......so not sure if this kind of solution will be better at the end, right now they have no excuse to be wrong or right, as they had the cables in the system they are used to listen..._

 

Yea, I'm aware it'd be noisy; that's a problem with most meets and there's a quick fix by dedicating a room for listening, and another one for socializing. Maybe trying to keep a standardized system for listening as well... perhaps ship a system around?


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## stefancolson

Just a friendly bump. Let's see those results!


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## mbd

Another bump - i've curious to hear the result too


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## Coelomate

Bump! And here I thought such an old thread would HAVE to be done by now


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## yellafella321

Edwood! Results please!


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## 003

Umm, so... 

 Results?


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## Edwood

Waiting on a few data that is missing. Will probably go ahead without them.

 Been pretty sick since Friday morning. Running a fever of 101 degrees currently, ugh.

 -Ed


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## yellafella321

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* 
_Waiting on a few data that is missing. Will probably go ahead without them.

 Been pretty sick since Friday morning. Running a fever of 101 degrees currently, ugh.

 -Ed_

 

Please do go ahead, many of us are dying to hear the results!

 Sorry about your health though, but im sure a lot of us feeling just as sick in anticipation!


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## Mevunky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yellafella321* 
_Please do go ahead, many of us are dying to hear the results!

 Sorry about your health though, but im sure a lot of us feeling just as sick in anticipation!_

 

Agreed. 2 years, and if you die...well have to continue your crusade. Anyway get better, none of that fever stuff, its like being on bad drugs, never good.


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## Czilla9000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mevunky* 
_Agreed. 2 years, and if you die...well have to continue your crusade. Anyway get better, none of that fever stuff, its like being on bad drugs, never good._

 

I'll be like in the movies.....he'll die right when he is about to announce the verdict....and we'll never know.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...Kinda like what happened at the end of Jim Carrey's "The Cable Guy" (pun not intended 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


 FYI, I hope you get better Edwood. My mom is really sick too, as well.


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## Aldo_Lopez

This is very exciting! I want to hear results! Mr.Edwood where are you!?


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## Edwood

Ack. Got a bad cough. Fever is down, but went back up to 100 degrees last night. 

 Good thing the heat wave in SoCal is over.

 -Ed


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## 003

I hope you get better soon but please do release the results!


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## Aldo_Lopez

Its been a week are you still sick? Is this anything serious?


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## Edwood

Results Posted!

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...=1#post2297097

 -Ed


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