# Schiit Saga Tube Rolling



## KoshNaranek

I thought I would share my impressions of the Saga Preamp and some of the Tube Rolling I have already done on it.
  
 Firstly, I would like to say how impressed I am with the sound form the Stock Tubes. If tube rolling was not so cheap(for non RCA tubes) and fun I would not bother and just enjoy the music if tube rolling is intimidating to you.
  
  
 I am just going to place the tubes in rank order with some comments
  
 1. RCA Red base: Mike is correct, this tube is really a revelation. Wide and Deep soundstage. Presence is excellent and you can hear more dynamic range.
  
 2. Hitachi, Hytron GT and GE GTB tubes: Noticeable improvement over stock tube. I would not cry into my drink with any of these. GE voices closest to the RCA and the Hitachi and Hytron are more mellow. All are very pleasant. I got these tubes for about $10 each and they represent the best value.
  
 3. Tung-Sol GTB: Very warm. Too warm for my taste. I place it here in the list, not because I liked it, but because others might gravitate to it. This one was $20.
  
 4. Sylvania GTB: slight improvement over stock: not enough to bother.
  
 5. Stock tube: Very nice. Serves as the baseline.
  
 6. Sylvania GTA: Midrange emphasis. Good for vocals I suppose.
  
 7. JJ Electronics New Tube: Quite the disappointment given how much I like their E88CC tubes.


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## Jason Stoddard

It's not often I reply on tube rolling threads, because everything is so subjective. And I won't go subjective here. This is just a comment on tube construction. 
  
 Specifically, construction of new-production "6SN7" type tubes. The new production tubes we've evaluated (JJ, Electro-Harmonix) don't look like typical 6SN7s. Their plates look reminiscent of something you'd see in late-production compactron tubes intended for television service. This in itself isn't a bad thing, as there are some very nice compactron tubes out there.
  
 That said, the difference in plate geometry is (ahem) _interesting, _and may bear some discussion, if anyone here knows anything about the construction of these new-production tubes.


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## KoshNaranek

jason stoddard said:


> It's not often I reply on tube rolling threads, because everything is so subjective. And I won't go subjective here. This is just a comment on tube construction.
> 
> Specifically, construction of new-production "6SN7" type tubes. The new production tubes we've evaluated (JJ, Electro-Harmonix) don't look like typical 6SN7s. Their plates look reminiscent of something you'd see in late-production compactron tubes intended for television service. This in itself isn't a bad thing, as there are some very nice compactron tubes out there.
> 
> That said, the difference in plate geometry is (ahem) _interesting,_ and may bear some discussion, if anyone here knows anything about the construction of these new-production tubes.




Thank you Jason


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## bigro

This is a somewhat detailed History of the 6SN7. There is some details about Different Plate types used as well as variations over the years and another mention of the red base tubes.
  
http://www.fourwater.com/files/hist6sn7.txt


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## limelake

koshnaranek said:


> I thought I would share my impressions of the Saga Preamp and some of the Tube Rolling I have already done on it.
> 
> Firstly, I would like to say how impressed I am with the sound form the Stock Tubes. If tube rolling was not so cheap(for non RCA tubes) and fun I would not bother and just enjoy the music if tube rolling is intimidating to you.
> 
> ...


 
 Was the Tung-Sol one of the new Russian Made ? Or a NOS ?


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## KoshNaranek

limelake said:


> Was the Tung-Sol one of the new Russian Made ? Or a NOS ?




Used tube. Production number 322607-3. Google says they are actually made by Sylvania but it has a side getter and sounds nothing like my Sylvania GTB (top getter)


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## limelake

Okay thankyou! I think I will try a GE tube to start.


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## KoshNaranek

limelake said:


> Okay thankyou! I think I will try a GE tube to start.




I think I want to try a non Red base RCA. Their prices are not so dear.


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## limelake

I ordered a GE last night...I was eyeing up the Raytheon.....made in japan in the 70's. Then again I may try a new production JJ....ahh well, I better just try the GE first befor I buy anything else.


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## KoshNaranek

limelake said:


> I ordered a GE last night...I was eyeing up the Raytheon.....made in japan in the 70's. Then again I may try a new production JJ....ahh well, I better just try the GE first befor I buy anything else.




Tried the JJ, it was really bad. Good luck with GE. I think my Hitachi is 70s also, I really like it as well. Since my wife likes it best, it probably get the most use.


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## limelake

Sorry I didn't mean a JJ...I meant a new production tung-sol.


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## KoshNaranek

New production Tung-Sol is made in Russia and rebranded by New Sensor Corporation. Jason's comments above would apply to them I think.


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## limelake

koshnaranek said:


> New production Tung-Sol is made in Russia and rebranded by New Sensor Corporation. Jason's comments above would apply to them I think.


 
 I do believe that some of the new production tubes may be good....perhaps great ? Who knows ? Problem is, eventually NOS tubes will become scarce, very expensive, even disappear. What will the next generation of tubes be like ? Will we be wanting the current generation then ? Or will they be better ? I think new production methods don't allow toxic elements and manufacturing techniques and tubes have suffered due to such.So...........who wants to be the first to jump into and test the new production shuguangs and shuguang treasures and the jj golds and all the offerings from eh/new sensor ? Don't get me wrong, I personally love the NOS tubes i own, I do think they are better. I dumped the new production tubes (shuguang) in my amp for NOS JAN GE5670's and never looked back. But the were very, affordable. I think we should support the current manufacturers to a certain degree....But I think they are well aware of the short comings of their versions...How do we get them to build tubes that sound the same as the NOS or very close ? I don't know that they can....or can they ? I must state that i do love my new production tung-sol el84's and because of that i ordered some new production mullard el84's in my order last night. Can amps be designed to sound fantastic around the new production tubes ? Jason can you comment on this ? I know you can buy skids of awesome NOS russian military dirt cheap. I priced 6N6p's last night from the tube store and they cost more than ordering the full tube set for my Valhalla 2 from you !


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## limelake

Just as an added not I am not trying to make this a NOS vs New production thread......I was just thinking through my keyboard.


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## KoshNaranek

limelake said:


> Just as an added not I am not trying to make this a NOS vs New production thread......I was just thinking through my keyboard.




I agree, if the new tube manufacturers make a quality product, then we should support them. I have raved about JJ E88CC on the Valhalla thread. The JJ 6sn7 are useless, and we should vote with our wallets.


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## bigro

koshnaranek said:


> I agree, if the new tube manufacturers make a quality product, then we should support them. I have raved about JJ E88CC on the Valhalla thread. The JJ 6sn7 are useless, and we should vote with our wallets.


 
 JJ E88CC are on the list for Valhalla 2 now. I am curious about the 60's- 70' NOS Russian 6SN7's. Any One try those ?


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## Guidostrunk

These were one of my favorite 6SN7, when I was rolling tubes in my Wa6. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262457922884

I'd also recommend Brimar 6sn7gt. These cost a little more, but worth it imo.


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## KoshNaranek

bigro said:


> JJ E88CC are on the list for Valhalla 2 now. I am curious about the 60's- 70' NOS Russian 6SN7's. Any One try those ?




Make sure you get the gold pins.

By the way, I don't think that it is not possible for modern tube manufacturers to make a superior product now. The only materials that are going to be off limits are lead and mercury. Neither is used in the tube itself. Mercury is used in the purification and processing of Tungsten for the heaters, but that should not be an issue. Vapor deposition is a process undreamed of in the tube heyday and I am sure that would be useful now if engineers put their minds to it.

I suspect that compactron plates are being used in the new 6sn7 because left over compactron mandrels were available. Once the market demands it, new mandrels can be made.


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## RoundRound

Hey guys, 
 I'm totally new to tubes (thanks Schiit!), I wonder how the stock tube in the Lyr 2 compares to the stock tube that comes with Saga? 
  
 I was a solid state guy until I heard my Yggy through a Lyr 2 and was amazed at the effect of the tube. However I'm really a speakers guy at heart (ML Electromotions) And then Schiit announced Saga and Freya - the later is in my sights...
  
 This whole tube thing is new to me - I heard tubes before in various 'audiophile' speakers system and they always sounded noisy - the Lyr 2 was the clearest I heard and gave a real run fir the money to the SS sound I usually prefer. 
  
 Thank you,


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## bigro

roundround said:


> Hey guys,
> I'm totally new to tubes (thanks Schiit!), I wonder how the stock tube in the Lyr 2 compares to the stock tube that comes with Saga?
> 
> I was a solid state guy until I heard my Yggy through a Lyr 2 and was amazed at the effect of the tube. However I'm really a speakers guy at heart (ML Electromotions) And then Schiit announced Saga and Freya - the later is in my sights...
> ...


 
 Their are others Like the OP who have more experience on the question but I just wanted to Point out that The Saga Uses 6SN7 Tubes and The Lyr Like the Valhalla 2 /Vali 2 etc uses the 6922 / ecc88 and their variants. From others Comments it seems people really like the 6SN7's. I am awaiting the Freya which would be my first foray into 6SN7's.


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## KoshNaranek

roundround said:


> Hey guys,
> I'm totally new to tubes (thanks Schiit!), I wonder how the stock tube in the Lyr 2 compares to the stock tube that comes with Saga?
> 
> I was a solid state guy until I heard my Yggy through a Lyr 2 and was amazed at the effect of the tube. However I'm really a speakers guy at heart (ML Electromotions) And then Schiit announced Saga and Freya - the later is in my sights...
> ...





If you are asking how much of a jump in performance do you get by moving up from stock in the Lyr vs Saga, then I would would say that the stock Saga tubes are quite good. You get more change from upgrading the headphone amp tubes.


By the way, it may interest you to know that my Saga test system is Logitech Transporter to Saga to Hafler 9505 to Martin Logan Aerius.


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## RoundRound

koshnaranek said:


> If you are asking how much of a jump in performance do you get by moving up from stock in the Lyr vs Saga, then I would would say that the stock Saga tubes are quite good. You get more change from upgrading the headphone amp tubes.
> 
> 
> By the way, it may interest you to know that my Saga test system is Logitech Transporter to Saga to Hafler 9505 to Martin Logan Aerius.


 

 Thank you.
 I'm not familiar with Tubes at all, I noticed that the Tube in Saga and Freya seems physically bigger than the stock one in the Lyr 2 - I wonder about the relationship betwene the two tubes - is bigger considered better? How are tubes classified? Thank you!


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## KoshNaranek

roundround said:


> Thank you.
> I'm not familiar with Tubes at all, I noticed that the Tube in Saga and Freya seems physically bigger than the stock one in the Lyr 2 - I wonder about the relationship betwene the two tubes - is bigger considered better? How are tubes classified? Thank you!




You might want to go to the link in bigro's post early in the thread. It has a good history of the dual triode tube configuration. You may also wish to watch this video 

https://youtu.be/GDvF89Bh27Y

I purchased my first set of tubes from Euro tubes. They were very helpful and walked me through my noob questions. They only carry JJ though.


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## RoundRound

Thank you!
  
 I have my eye on the Brimar tubes form the UK - supposed to be good but I'll start with the stock Schiit ones. Do we know if they are matched pairs in the Freya?


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## theveterans

Do you guys know where can I get the stock 6SN7 tubes that's in the Saga or will Schiit sell those in their site at some point?


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## KoshNaranek

theveterans said:


> Do you guys know where can I get the stock 6SN7 tubes that's in the Saga or will Schiit sell those in their site at some point?




Jason mentioned that they would sell them somewhere in his posts. I imagine it is not a high priority right now.


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## bigro

theveterans said:


> Do you guys know where can I get the stock 6SN7 tubes that's in the Saga or will Schiit sell those in their site at some point?


 

https://www.tubedepot.com/
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types
 I have Also Ordered From this Ebay Seller. They are In Bulgaria so it will take a couple weeks to clear customs but they test and show the results of the testing.  http://www.ebay.com/usr/lci_electronics?_trksid=p2053788.m1543.l2754
  
 Make sure you get matched sets otherwise you can have channel imbalances.


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## limelake

So I have rolled in a NOS GE 6sn7 GTB tube into my SAGA and it is an improvement over the stock. I would say a 20% better than the stock. I can hear a wider stage and deeper...not major but worth the money. About 35$ CAD. The stock tube now that I have listened to it (probably 100hrs of breakin), doesn't offer any change in sound to me....not that it degrades, because it doesn't. The GE is a great step up. Well worth the money. So my review is buy a SAGA ! If you want some sugar,cream, pepper, salt and a hint of tobasco get the GE tube. The GE6sn7 GTB I bought was a mid 70's.


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## theveterans

limelake said:


> So I have rolled in a NOS GE 6sn7 GTB tube into my SAGA and it is an improvement over the stock. I would say a 20% better than the stock. I can hear a wider stage and deeper...not major but worth the money. About 35$ CAD. The stock tube now that I have listened to it (probably 100hrs of breakin), doesn't offer any change in sound to me....not that it degrades, because it doesn't. The GE is a great step up. Well worth the money. So my review is buy a SAGA ! If you want some sugar,cream, pepper, salt and a hint of tobasco get the GE tube. The GE6sn7 GTB I bought was a mid 70's.


 
  
 Is this the FAA 6SN7GTB?


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## limelake

Yes it is the FAA.


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## KoshNaranek

theveterans said:


> Is this the FAA 6SN7GTB?





Yes, inquiring minds want to know. 


Meanwhile, I obtained a standard RCA 6sn7gt tube. I, at least, cannot distinguish between it and the red base RCA. Lovely.


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## theveterans

koshnaranek said:


> Yes, inquiring minds want to know.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, I obtained a standard RCA 6sn7gt tube. I, at least, cannot distinguish between it and the red base RCA. Lovely.


 
  
 Coincidentally, I ordered the RCA 6sn7gtb from tc tubes just minutes ago from here: http://tctubes.com/RCA-6SN7GTB-tube.aspx
  
 I wonder what's the difference though between the 6sn7gt and the 6sn7gtb


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## bigro

Tubes !!!
  
http://tctubes.com/6SN7-ECC32-5692-VT231-tubes.aspx
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types
  
 I ran Across these and the look cool but had a Weird name So I found an interesting article.that peaks my interest. Apparently the person behind them is very respected in the tube community. If Any one has used these please grace us with your opinion,
http://www.store.diyhifisupply.com/Vacuum-Tubes/6SN7-6SL7-tubes/TJ-Fullmusic-Gold-pin-6SN7-Matched-Pair
  
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/tj+synergy/1.html
  
 And how they make them.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/china_2009/tj_full_music/page2.htm


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## KoshNaranek

The Chinese made 6sn7 that I have seen use a square plate cross section similar to Russian tubes. I believe that the tooling for tube production originally came from Russia.

When I went through my original Saga tubes, I found I liked rectangular plates the best (RCA, GE, Hitachi, Hytron) I realized this after listening, so no preconceptions.

The T plate tubes were generally warmer (Sylvania, Tung-Sol)

The stock tube (square plate) was in between. 

This is my personal experience, I have little scientific basis for my conclusions. Past performance is not indicative of future results. I assume no liability for any costs or psychological damage you may incur. Blah Blah Blah Yakity Schmackity.


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## US Blues

bigro said:


> Tubes !!!
> 
> http://tctubes.com/6SN7-ECC32-5692-VT231-tubes.aspx
> http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types
> ...


 
  
 These Northern Electric tubes are made by TJ Fullmusic in China and sold by The Tube Store, Northern Electric is their house brand.
  
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Northern-Electric-6SN7
  
 It seems The Tube Store gets these and tests them in house, even though the box reads Canada, they are only tested there, not manufactured in Canada.


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## theveterans

koshnaranek said:


> The Chinese made 6sn7 that I have seen use a square plate cross section similar to Russian tubes. I believe that the tooling for tube production originally came from Russia.
> 
> When I went through my original Saga tubes, I found I liked rectangular plates the best (RCA, GE, Hitachi, Hytron) I realized this after listening, so no preconceptions.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Agree with you on the RCA 6SN7GTB tubes (couldn't justify spending a huge $$$ on the 5692s). I find that the RCA does not emphasize any frequencies; just make the soundstage wide open, revealing details and transients clearly, and I get the feeling that the sound does not get colored in any way.


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## KoshNaranek

Which GE are you comparing it to?


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## theveterans

koshnaranek said:


> Which GE are you comparing it to?


 
  
 I'm just comparing stock against the RCA. The RCA sounds similar to the stock in tonality, but the RCA edges out the stock objectively in soundstage and imaging IMO and subjectively detail retrieval.


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## hornytoad

The RCA Red Base tubes are 159 bucks a piece! Yikes.


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## KoshNaranek

hornytoad said:


> The RCA Red Base tubes are 159 bucks a piece! Yikes.




I have a red base and black base. I cannot hear the difference.


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## hornytoad

koshnaranek said:


> I have a red base and black base. I cannot hear the difference.


 
 Where have you seen the best price for the Rca Black Base?


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## KoshNaranek

hornytoad said:


> Where have you seen the best price for the Rca Black Base?




I paid $10 for an used tube out of a 5 gallon Homer bucket of tubes from an ebay seller that lives near me


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## bigro

I just bought two matched 1954 Black Base RCA from a seller on ebay for $35 shipped
  
 From that same seller I found these. I am not sure if the coin base makes a difference.                                          http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6SN7GTB-MATCH-PAIR-COIN-BASE-BLACK-PLATE-SIDE-GETTER-MINTY-/282285985062


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## RoundRound

Hello People,
 Has anyone tried the *Sylvania CHS JAN 6SN7WGTA*? 66'
  
 I found a matched quad for $150 - not sure if it's a good deal? I want to use them in the Freya...
  
 Thank you!


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## theveterans

roundround said:


> Hello People,
> Has anyone tried the *Sylvania CHS JAN 6SN7WGTA*? 66'
> 
> I found a matched quad for $150 - not sure if it's a good deal? I want to use them in the Freya...
> ...


 
  
  
 IMO that's a good deal. It should work on the Freya as long as it's a 6SN7. As for sound, you have to wait to hear it. Haven't tried any Sylvania 6SN7s in my Saga though.


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## RoundRound

Thank guys, 
 What is considered a good matching for a m,athcing pair of NOS tubes? 1%? 5%? 10%?
  
 Thank you!


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## KoshNaranek

roundround said:


> Thank guys,
> What is considered a good matching for a m,athcing pair of NOS tubes? 1%? 5%? 10%?
> 
> Thank you!




I am told 20% is considered acceptable. This seems high to me. I would prefer less than 10%


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## RoundRound

Thank you.
  
 Lastly, how long do tubes take to break in? Assuming they are unused NOS?


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## KoshNaranek

A friend wanted me roll new tubes in preparation for Freya. It is cheaper to experiment with Saga.

He purchased a New Russian Tung-Sol and an EH gold pin. We rolled them in the Saga.

Test System: Squeezebox Transporter to Saga to Hafler 9505 to Martin Logan Aerius.

The two tubes are identical, so the Tung-Sol is half the price for the same sound. 

Comparing them to the RCA Black Base yields a different tone, but imaging is equal. I have a slight personal preference for the RCA, but they are very, very close. Not worth arguing about. I would say that they are the second best tubes, but would dispute no one who preferred the Tung-Sol.


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## US Blues

koshnaranek said:


> A friend wanted me roll new tubes in preparation for Freya. It is cheaper to experiment with Saga.
> 
> He purchased a New Russian Tung-Sol and an EH gold pin. We rolled them in the Saga.
> 
> ...


 

 That is a great test and report. Knowing that newly made tubes compare so favorably to a vaunted NOS is good news for those of us who desire a Freya/Saga, and for the long-term viability of tube audio gear as a whole.


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## theveterans

koshnaranek said:


> A friend wanted me roll new tubes in preparation for Freya. It is cheaper to experiment with Saga.
> 
> He purchased a New Russian Tung-Sol and an EH gold pin. We rolled them in the Saga.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I do like the dead-neutral/accurate representation of the RCA black base 1961 GTB. How's the tone with the Tung-Sol?


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## KoshNaranek

theveterans said:


> I do like the dead-neutral/accurate representation of the RCA black base 1961 GTB. How's the tone with the Tung-Sol?




Unfortunately, I did not have a lot of time to listen before there was a flash, a pop, and the left channel of my 22 year old Hafler died.

My initial impression was there was a little more toe tapping going on with the RCA. I am sorry I cannot be more specific at this time. The tone was not different enough that I could immediately characterize it.


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## KoshNaranek

koshnaranek said:


> Unfortunately, I did not have a lot of time to listen before there was a flash, a pop, and the left channel of my 22 year old Hafler died.
> 
> My initial impression was there was a little more toe tapping going on with the RCA. I am sorry I cannot be more specific at this time. The tone was not different enough that I could immediately characterize it.





I will say that my impression was similar to a Hitachi(see my original post). This was my wife's favorite tubes. I did not get her impression though. She is much faster at coming to conclusions than I.


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## RonO

in my setup, I have the Saga going to a NAD 326bee, bypassing the preamp section of the NAD, speakers are ELAC UB5.  I've got 5 tubes, stock, a new stock Russian tung-sol, and 3 NOS tubes, a Silvertone, a CBS/Raytheon, and a Westinghouse.  I can't really tell a difference in any of them, and I also don't detect much of anything but gain to the amplifier when the tube is switched in and out (passive vs. active). It's like 2 clicks on the volume to even between the two modes. There is a difference there, but if you covered the light, I could never tell you which mode it's in.  I have also used a new stock Russian tung-sol 12au7 in my Bottlehead Crack, and I love that tube, which is why I tried their tube in the Saga.  The one advantage to the new tubes is zero microphonics and no hum vs. some of the NOS stuff, not so much on saga, but on the crack it amplifies the noise.
  
 It's interesting the differences in all the tubes, the CBS is a really small bulb, where the westinghouse is huge.  Looking forward to Vidar.
  
 Ron


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## limelake

I am now hearing a big difference after about 150 hours on my SAGA with the stock tube and the GE FAA tube. Perhaps the SAGA it self needs the breakin. The tube buffer now make a noticeable improvement. Both tubes sound great. GE is warmer, stock is faster sounding.


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## limelake

I find the tube buffer really makes a difference in poorer quality HP amps eg. not much with the vali 2 but way better with bravo audio ocean.


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## KoshNaranek

roundround said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Lastly, how long do tubes take to break in? Assuming they are unused NOS?




I have not noticed any break in on tubes that could not be accounted for simply by psychological factors.


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## rnros

roundround said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Lastly, how long do tubes take to break in? Assuming they are unused NOS?




If they are true NOS, I would expect at least 20 hours. Some will require more time. 
I don't typically look for much change beyond 60 or 70, but that certainly could vary by tube.
Note that there are very, very few true NOS tubes available. Most are used.


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## ProfFalkin

us blues said:


> These Northern Electric tubes are made by TJ Fullmusic in China and sold by The Tube Store, Northern Electric is their house brand.
> 
> http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Northern-Electric-6SN7
> 
> It seems The Tube Store gets these and tests them in house, even though the box reads Canada, they are only tested there, not manufactured in Canada.




I got a pair for my Elise. Bright. I might try one in my Saga, but I will probably slap a Sylvania in first.


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## MefAudio

Some awesome impressions here! I know the JAN RCA red base tubes are supposed to last 10k hours, has anyone had any experience with the civilian version? Any idea how long they would last? Also does anyone have experience with the red base 5691 or 5690, or the 5693 for that matter?


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## limelake

Has the Freya knocked the wind out of this thread ?  There has to be more than the handful posting that own a SAGA ! Stand up and be counted I say ! The Freya is nice....but I have no use for it in my audio system. Wow.....the SYS got more posts than the SAGA. Anyone tried new production tubes yet ?


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## theveterans

It's head-fi where most listeners are using headphones. With SYS, you can go backward and use switch for a/bing headphone amps while you can't do that with Saga. Some are turned off with tube costs and Saga's price above Sys of course. It's either go big with Freya or go small with Sys. Then there's Jot with preamp outs so that also cannibalize Saga.


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## limelake

theveterans said:


> It's head-fi where most listeners are using headphones. With SYS, you can go backward and use switch for a/bing headphone amps while you can't do that with Saga. Some are turned off with tube costs and Saga's price above Sys of course. It's either go big with Freya or go small with Sys. Then there's Jot with preamp outs so that also cannibalize Saga.


 
 Yes....I do for get this is Headfi....... ! I came here because of the snobbery of another forum. I just couldn't handle the people there. So I do hear what you are saying. I love Headfi very much.....I sometimes forget where I am !  My true apologies


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## hornytoad

I know nothing about tube rolling but I have some Tung sol kt 120's for one of my amps and like it quite a bit . 

I really think I'm going new production as I feel like we need to support current not out of business manufacturers


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## limelake

I do agree. We do need to support current manufacturers. I do own NOS tubes as well as current manufacturers tubes. Jason's (Schiit) post about new tubes being questionable kind of scared me away..... I do like my new production el84 tungsol's and mullards, curious about JJ's el84s....never owned NOS el84's as they are stupidly priced. I would love to hear from some people with experience using new production tubes in the SAGA. I do use my second output on the SAGA into my headphone amp(s). (vali2 valhalla 2 and bravo ocean).


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## theveterans

I just grabbed a matching pair of brown base 1957 CBS JAN 5692 as they are getting rarer and pricier. I'll compare it to the 1961 RCA GTB for fun. If I have enough spare cash I'll probably grab a later 5692 variant with black base and black plates from Sylvania as well


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## Synergist969

Tube NEWB here would like some help...
  
 For the Schiit Audio Freya pre-amp...
  
 1. Takes a 6SN7 tube...is this an 8 or 9 pin tube?...(I am considering locating/purchasing socket savers unless that is a bad idea...
  
 2. What Tube sellers/web-sites would you recommend for me to begin my search/research?
  
 3. Any critical information with which I should be armed prior to making a selection/clicking the "purchase" button?
  
 4. How do I attempt to request/ensure(?) I am obtaining matched tube sets...either two or ideally four tubes...
  
 5. At the novice level of tube experience, would recently manufactured tubes, (new), be a better value/lower risk than NOS tubes...?...
  
 6. Are there website based suppliers who tend to be more reliable with regard to tube recommendations, and/or reliability of recommended tubes?
  
 THANK YOU for any an all input!...


----------



## theveterans

synergist969 said:


> Tube NEWB here would like some help...
> 
> For the Schiit Audio Freya pre-amp...
> 
> ...


 
  
 1.) 8 pin tube. Standard 6SN7 (all variants GT, GTB, CV181, etc.), 6H8C or 5692 except for 12SN7.
  
 2.) If you want NOS only, go to tctubes (period) com or if you want new production tubes (EH, Tung-sol reissue, JJ) and NOS in one store, go to tubedepot (period) com. If you want used tubes, go to ebay of course.
  
 3.)The 5692 and the vintage GT (not the newer GTA,B) gives one of the widest soundstage and rich sound. If you want overall smoothness, go for the CV181 from Psvanetube
  
 4.) Select match pair from options.
  
 5.) Newer tubes are better value than NOS, but the sound quality depends on the amp. With Saga, NOS sounds better than new tubes, but they range from subtle to noticeable right away.
  
 6.) see reference 6SN7 headfi http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## axc123

According to the manual, Freya accomodates any 6SN7, 6N8S and 5692 tube type, and 6SL7 or 6N9S also work. Does anyone know if ECC32 or ECC33 tube types work with Freya as well?


----------



## theveterans

axc123 said:


> According to the manual, Freya accomodates any 6SN7, 6N8S and 5692 tube type, and 6SL7 or 6N9S also work. Does anyone know if ECC32 or ECC33 tube types work with Freya as well?


 
  
 ECC32 = Mullard CV181 and that might work but beware of the voltage limitation. ECC33 = 6SN7GT which works. Psvane's version of CV181 = 6SN7GT


----------



## ICTWoody

Hey guys. I joined here on Head-Fi just so I could join into this thread. Not new to forums though. 

I just received my Saga on Friday and have only listened to it for a few hours. I should note that I'm not using it in a headphone setup. It's being used in an analogue only 2ch setup. Source is my Denon DP-1250 with a Sumiko Premier MMT arm. Denon DL103 LOMC cart. Emotiva XPS-1 Phono Preamp. Schiit Saga. Icon MB30SE monoblocks using KT150 power tubes. Speakers are custom built 2-Way Altec's using an Onken 360L cabinet with 511B horn etc... Cabling is Belden 8402 for interconnects and Duelund DCA16GA speaker wire.

My Saga showed up with a bad stock tube. The right side triode was popping and crackling so bad that I thought I was going to damage my right speaker. I switched the output to passive and it went away. I grabbed a few other 6SN7's I had handy and popped one in. No more noises. Tried a different tube, still no noises. Put the stock Russian tube in again and the popping and cracking was back. Emailed Schiit and am awaiting a response.

This started me tube rolling the Saga much earlier that I anticipated.

I have been rolling pairs of 6SN7's through my Modwright LS100 preamp in my main system the last few weeks so this is an interesting comparison, hearing the same tubes in the two different preamps. I can tell you with 100% confidence that it is much harder to hear subtle difference with the Saga. I think this is because it is a unity gain unit compared to my Modwright where difference in tubes are easy to hear. I'm guessing it would be easier to hear the difference in a Freya.

So far I've rolled only 3 tubes into the Saga... so I'm going to post more as I listen more. So far I've rolled a Shuguang Black Treasure CV-181, a newer Japanese production NOS GE Black Plate labeled RTT, and a 1940's Sylvania VT-231.

I can say that the Black treasures will fit in a Saga... but just barely. The base will go in, but the glass bottoms out on the cover... I'm not sure if the pins were all the way in or not. I wish the opening was about 1/8" bigger diameter.

The Black Treasure had the most clarity. Soundstage and imaging was lovely. Detail was nice. Very open sounding. The GE was great too and ultimately what I've left in for now. A little better bass than the BT. A little more lush. More tubey sounding. The Sylvania was good too... but somehow less open and exciting to me than the other two... it only stayed in for a couple albums. 

I'm going to post more detailed thoughts once I have more time listening and actually take some notes using reference tracks. I also will wait to get a stock tube so I can put that in the mix as well and how it relates to my other tubes. 

Stay tuned. 

- Woody


----------



## Fr8dog

I've had my Saga for about 6 weeks. Also bought a Mimby at the same time. Replaced an Emotiva DC-1. Almost returned the Saga. Sounded horrible. Found the crossover I had didn't play nice with the Saga. Not sure why. Removed the crossover (too many cables extra cables anyway) and never looked back.


----------



## Synergist969

> 1.) 8 pin tube. Standard 6SN7 (all variants GT, GTB, CV181, etc.), 6H8C or 5692 except for 12SN7.
> 
> 2.) If you want NOS only, go to tctubes (period) com or if you want new production tubes (EH, Tung-sol reissue, JJ) and NOS in one store, go to tubedepot (period) com. If you want used tubes, go to ebay of course.
> 
> ...


 
  
   Dear theveterans:
  
     Thank you sir for your very complete and detailed response(s)!...it will go a long way to my engaging in my latest addiction subset...    ...my long-standing primary one being "Hi-Fi" in general...
  
 "Hi, my name is Tim, and I'm an audiophile"...
  
 Oh, and I enjoyed watching that old Mullard Factory video on tube manufacturing...learned a good bit coming from my state of nearly total ignorance...wondering if there are any more, easy to digest, informative video...    ...


----------



## belgiangenius

Messing around with various tubes in my Freya, I've noticed you are best off with your most transparent tubes in the buffer stage.    So, now I have my Sylvania VT-231 in the buffer stage. 
  
 The Kenrad VT-231 and Sylvania 1952 6SN7GT chrome domes I have sound similar (great bass, slightly less transparent).  I've settled on the KenRads in the gain stage for now.  If I use those tubes in both stages, sound starts to get a little syrupy because I think they just compound each other.
  
 I have CBS Hytron 5692 (brown base) and RCA VT-231 grey bottles on the way to try out too.


----------



## bigro

belgiangenius said:


> Messing around with various tubes in my Freya, I've noticed you are best off with your most transparent tubes in the buffer stage.    So, now I have my Sylvania VT-231 in the buffer stage.
> 
> The Kenrad VT-231 and Sylvania 1952 6SN7GT chrome domes I have sound similar (great bass, slightly less transparent).  I've settled on the KenRads in the gain stage for now.  If I use those tubes in both stages, sound starts to get a little syrupy because I think they just compound each other.
> 
> I have CBS Hytron 5692 (brown base) and RCA VT-231 grey bottles on the way to try out too.


 
  
 This is Interesting, My Expectation was the tube selection in the Buffer stage would not have much if any effect. Are you only Rolling NOS?
  
 I guess this will Be the Saga/Freya Impressions thread until someone create a Freya Thread. My Freya is on the way (Although it will be here on Friday when I am out of town) Monday is a Holiday for me so  I will have some time to play Once I pick it up from the fedex store.


----------



## RoundRound

I'm curious about the idea of using an adapter from 6SN7 to 7N7 - which are supposed to sound great be cheaper - but all the adapters I found online require rewiring into the pre-amp - literally replacing the socket... is this the case? Is there an adapter I could drop into the existing socket (in Freya? when it finally get's to Britain) - that would be awesome!


----------



## KoshNaranek

roundround said:


> I'm curious about the idea of using an adapter from 6SN7 to 7N7 - which are supposed to sound great be cheaper - but all the adapters I found online require rewiring into the pre-amp - literally replacing the socket... is this the case? Is there an adapter I could drop into the existing socket (in Freya? when it finally get's to Britain) - that would be awesome!




The 7n7 uses a loktal base but is electrically identical to a octal base (6sn7). I suppose you could modify the 7n7 tube by crimping spacers to the pins to increase their diameter so it makes good contact. The pin spacing is apparently identical.


----------



## theveterans

belgiangenius said:


> Messing around with various tubes in my Freya, I've noticed you are best off with your most transparent tubes in the buffer stage.    So, now I have my Sylvania VT-231 in the buffer stage.
> 
> The Kenrad VT-231 and Sylvania 1952 6SN7GT chrome domes I have sound similar (great bass, slightly less transparent).  I've settled on the KenRads in the gain stage for now.  If I use those tubes in both stages, sound starts to get a little syrupy because I think they just compound each other.
> 
> I have CBS Hytron 5692 (brown base) and RCA VT-231 grey bottles on the way to try out too.


 
  
 How does the 5692 sound as input buffer in the Freya?


----------



## jseymour

Would this work without rewiring?  I assumed that the point of tube adapters was that they eliminated rewiring.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-7N7-7F7-TO-6SN7GT-B65-6SL7-tube-converter-adapter/201320848428?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D407a7a982b9144989da7fb5990ff0ba4%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D191571501320
  
 Sorry for the long link.


----------



## KoshNaranek

jseymour said:


> Would this work without rewiring?  I assumed that the point of tube adapters was that they eliminated rewiring.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-7N7-7F7-TO-6SN7GT-B65-6SL7-tube-converter-adapter/201320848428?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D407a7a982b9144989da7fb5990ff0ba4%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D191571501320
> 
> Sorry for the long link.




It says 7n7 to 6sn7 but LOOKS like a 6sn7 to 7n7. You might have to just take one for the team.


----------



## belgiangenius

bigro said:


> This is Interesting, My Expectation was the tube selection in the Buffer stage would not have much if any effect. Are you only Rolling NOS?
> 
> I guess this will Be the Saga/Freya Impressions thread until someone create a Freya Thread. My Freya is on the way (Although it will be here on Friday when I am out of town) Monday is a Holiday for me so  I will have some time to play Once I pick it up from the fedex store.


 
  
 Yes, I'm only rolling NOS.  I've tried new 12AU7 and 12AT7 tubes before and was never impressed.  Granted, they're not broken in yet, but I'm not impressed with the 1980s NOS Russian tubes that came with it either.
  
 In my experience, the buffer stage has less impact than the gain stage, but it can still muck up the sound if you don't put transparent tubes there.


----------



## belgiangenius

theveterans said:


> How does the 5692 sound as input buffer in the Freya?


 
  
 You mean in the gain stage?  Don't have them yet, but will let you know!  5692s are supposed to be some of the best.


----------



## theveterans

Not the output gain stage, but input buffer stage? My 5692's haven't arrived yet either


----------



## theveterans

Got my JAN-CHY-5692 brown base for my Saga. Wow! Soundstage is also very wide like the RCAs, but the biggest difference is the slight harshness from the RCA GTB is completely gone! Only CON is that the price is getting insanely expensive for a 5692 brown base.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Found a very interesting reference via Google.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/MostVacuumTubes.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj404XwitnRAhUjxFQKHY2oAcgQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNFYJnkwVMl3EWJxJcRm1V6Y07z9Hg


----------



## bigro

The new Production Tung sols seem to be getting some very good marks over on the Freya Thread. Has Any one tried one in the Saga?


----------



## RonO

For me, the new stock Tung Sol was the first tube I got for the Saga, as I use the 12au7/6189 they make in my Crack.  I posted on this earlier in the thread, no specifically about the Tung-Sol, just that from the tubes I tried, I just don't hear a lot of difference in them, and yet, have come back to the Tung-Sol.


----------



## KoshNaranek

bigro said:


> The new Production Tung sols seem to be getting some very good marks over on the Freya Thread. Has Any one tried one in the Saga?




Tried them just before the Hafler blew up. They were excellent.


----------



## shoom

koshnaranek said:


> Tried them just before the Hafler blew up. They were excellent.


 
  
  
I’ve been running RCA in my SAGA for a few weeks now but the Tung Sol popped through the letter box this morning and curiosity got the better of me.


A bit of a nice surprise really.


After a few hours cooking.


Firstly I’d say that to my ears and in my set up these sound quite a bit better than the stock tubes and in comparison to the RCA are richer and rounder. They also have a slightly different sound shape compared to the wide and high RCA they are just a tad slimmer and less tall. But they do seem to have a deeper presentation with more of the tube mid’s which puts more meat on the bone of vocals for example. Nicely deep in the bass also. The top seems to have just a little less sparkle than the RCA but that may change as these tube really warm up.


Big, beefy, and very fruity so far without losing detail.


Not bad for a current production tube and the Russians can make them BTW. I’ve had some very nice 6n1p/6n6p in the past. 


I’m liking the Tung Sol ATM.


It’s great fun.


----------



## belgiangenius

shoom said:


> I’ve been running RCA in my SAGA for a few weeks now but the Tung Sol popped through the letter box this morning and curiosity got the better of me.
> 
> 
> A bit of a nice surprise really.
> ...


 
  
 Wow, what an endorsement of the Tung-Sols.
  
 Which RCAs were you running?


----------



## shoom

belgiangenius said:


> Wow, what an endorsement of the Tung-Sols.
> 
> Which RCAs were you running?


 

 ​RCA 6sn7GTB but orange print on the base which I think may be late production supplied by Langrex here in the UK.
  
 I'm going to give the Tung Sol a good work out and report back as they are a little under done burn in wise.


----------



## KoshNaranek

shoom said:


> ​RCA 6sn7GTB but orange print on the base which I think may be late production supplied by Langrex here in the UK.
> 
> I'm going to give the Tung Sol a good work out and report back as they are a little under done burn in wise.




Since you are in the UK, would you be willing to take one for the team and try Brimar UK round plate tubes? They do not ship to the US and are difficult to obtain for me.


----------



## Andrew Rieger

How many of you are using the Saga as a tube buffer stage for a solid state headphone amp?


----------



## Khragon

I'm using it to feed iFi Pro iCan, which has it own tube stage mode on top of SS mode.  Can't say much as I just started using Saga.  I'm also feeding Saga into Glenn 300B, but mainly use it as passive preamp for the remote control capability.


----------



## liquidsmote

I'll post pics and impressions when I get a chance, but I can confirm the Tung-Sol reissue is legit. Not only is it significantly better than the stock meh, but it is just as good if not better than the RCA GTB, GE GTA and GTB, Sylvania, and chromedome Philco. 

Of the above, the Philco chromedome is wonderful ... truly a treasure. Probably a Sylvania relabel, but massively different in internal construction from my branded Sylvania.

Unlike previous posts ... the GE GTA / GTB are my least favorite of the bunch ... I find them to be quite brittle / harsh sounding.


----------



## Odin412

Thanks for all the impressions. I'm using the stock tube for now, but I'll probably try out the Tung-Sol and Electro-Harmonix Gold tubes down the line, There's also a Northern Electric 6SN7 tube that looks a bit different, but I haven't seen much impressions about that one.


----------



## liquidsmote

odin412 said:


> Thanks for all the impressions. I'm using the stock tube for now, but I'll probably try out the Tung-Sol and Electro-Harmonix Gold tubes down the line, There's also a Northern Electric 6SN7 tube that looks a bit different, but I haven't seen much impressions about that one.


 

 If you do try out the EH, please let me know your thoughts regardless of how subjective they may be. It's 2x the price of the Tung-Sol and I spent most of my $ on NOS. Most of those NOS cost more than the Tung-Sol reissue, so I was very surprised by the high SQ. I held off on the EH due to it being close in price to the GE's (disappointment) ... but I really would like to know how they work out for you.
  
 I'll update ASAP with a little more detail when I can take some pics so people know exactly what I've tried. Philcos are usually cheap btw, they didn't manufacture a whole lot on their own from my research, but their relabels are usually cheaper than the "brand name" manufacturer they relabeled.


----------



## KoshNaranek

I compared the new Tung-Sol to the Gold EH. They were exactly the same. See my previous posts.


----------



## liquidsmote

koshnaranek said:


> I compared the new Tung-Sol to the Gold EH. They were exactly the same. See my previous posts.


 

 Indeed, but would still like Odin's opinion. More (subjective) data points is usually a good thing!


----------



## liquidsmote

PHOTO DOES NOT INDICATE AN ORDER OF PREFERENCE
  
 FROM LEFT TO RIGHT - ALL SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS!!!
  
 1) Belton / JJ 6SN7 socket saver from EuroTubes:
 This socket saver uses a Belton socket matched to a JJ base. The adapter socket sits nearly flush with the Schiithole. Fitting tubes is difficult at first due to the tightness of the Belton socket (as reported on other sites), and I recommend a few insertions and removals before installing in the Saga. I hear no changes in SQ when using this adapter.
  
 2) Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB Re-issue:
 For $20 this tube provides excellent SQ comparable, if not better than NOS. Full deep bass extension, wide sound stage, and clear crisp (but not brittle) highs. A real winner!
  
 3) GE 6SN7GTB from 1961:
 Meh ... an improvement over stock but not much. Bright but harsh, I quickly fatigued listening to this tube. Lost a lot of sub bass response with this.
  
 4) RCA 6SN7GTB from 1959:
 The most expensive of the bunch ... a noticeable improvement over stock. Smooth, lush, musical are all adjectives that come to mind. Not as much bass extension or control as the Tung-Sol, but a softer presentation.
  
 5) Philco 6SN7GTB from 1956:
 Most likely a Sylvania. Excellent SQ, very close to the Tung-Sol but just a touch softer and slightly looser with sub bass. Cost me less than the Tung-Sol!
  
 6) Sylvania 6SN7GTB of unknown vintage, probably 70's:
 Similar to the Philco but I need more time with this one.
  
 7) GE 6SN7GTA from 1954:
 From the Schenectady, NY plant according to EIA code. Just as bad as the GE 6SN7GTB. Harsh, brittle, lacking bass extension, unimpressive sound stage ... barely an improvement over stock.
  
 Updates:
  
 Running CBS 5751 triple micas on my mini tube amp input has calmed down the GE 6SN7GTB/A a little bit ... but the bass extension is still weak AF.
 I typically love GE 12AX7 and 5751s ... even the 80's versions are decent. Hence my even greater disappointment with GE 6SN7s ...
 I've tried matching the GE 6SN7 with RCA/Philco/Sylvania/Mullard/ and a bunch of re-issues ... the CBS was the first palatable pairing.


----------



## KoshNaranek

liquidsmote said:


> Indeed, but would still like Odin's opinion. More (subjective) data points is usually a good thing!




Oh, sorry.


----------



## liquidsmote

koshnaranek said:


> Oh, sorry.


 

 No problem, and thank you for starting this thread!


----------



## Odin412

liquidsmote said:


> Indeed, but would still like Odin's opinion. More (subjective) data points is usually a good thing!


 
  
 Thanks for the vote of confidence! I am far from a tube guru but I'll be happy to report my impressions. I plan to order the Tung-Sols and Electro-Harmonix tubes in a few days and then I'll try them out and report on what I hear.


----------



## KoshNaranek

liquidsmote said:


> No problem, and thank you for starting this thread!




You are welcome. 

BTW, I no longer have the Saga. I bought it as a gift for my father and he has it now. Through poor planning on my part, I set it up for him and was forced to initially use the interconnects that came with the ADCOM GFA555. The sound quality was disappointing in its sense of space.

While I was visiting, I decided to order Monoprice interconnects from Amazon($10 for 2 sets). Schiit had used their cables for RMAF, but this was my first experience with them.

There was an improvement in timbre and an enormous improvement in sense of space. The system sounded almost as good as it did in my house (In a larger room with better speakers).

Impressed with the value of these cables.


----------



## liquidsmote

koshnaranek said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> BTW, I no longer have the Saga. I bought it as a gift for my father and he has it now. Through poor planning on my part, I set it up for him and was forced to initially use the interconnects that came with the ADCOM GFA555. The sound quality was disappointing in its sense of space.
> 
> ...


 

 I love Monoprice cables ... I'm running their 1/8" to RCA from my HTPC to my Saga ... but I do need some of their interconnects from the Saga to my amp and subs! They have a new series of mono sub cables (Monolith I think) that I'd like to take a look at. I'm also running Monoprice 12AWG speaker wire to from my mini tube amp to my bookshelves, and noticeably better than the ****ty RCA 16 AWG I was running. Monoprice banana plugs ... at least the ones with dual / plastic shielding are pure crap though.


----------



## Odin412

liquidsmote said:


> If you do try out the EH, please let me know your thoughts regardless of how subjective they may be. It's 2x the price of the Tung-Sol and I spent most of my $ on NOS. Most of those NOS cost more than the Tung-Sol reissue, so I was very surprised by the high SQ. I held off on the EH due to it being close in price to the GE's (disappointment) ... but I really would like to know how they work out for you.


 
  
 I tried the EH tube, but it's not for me. It has good bass extension and sound stage, but the treble is too bright (and slightly strident) for me. I've probably had the tube running for 30-40 hours before giving it a good listen today. Maybe it needs more burn-in?
  
 Anyway, back to the stock tube for a while - and I really like how the Saga sounds with the stock tube! The Tung-Sol is next.


----------



## Odin412

I've now tried both the Electro-Harmonix Gold and the Tung-Sol tubes, and I've decided to return to the stock tube. The EH and Tung-Sol tubes sound quite similar, but they're both on the bright side for my taste. The stock tube may be too dark for some, but I really enjoy the smoothness and musicality that it delivers. All in all, the Saga is an outstanding value and a great preamp.


----------



## JohnBal

Odin412 said:


> I've now tried both the Electro-Harmonix Gold and the Tung-Sol tubes, and I've decided to return to the stock tube. The EH and Tung-Sol tubes sound quite similar, but they're both on the bright side for my taste. The stock tube may be too dark for some, but I really enjoy the smoothness and musicality that it delivers. All in all, the Saga is an outstanding value and a great preamp.


I think if its musicality and tone you're after, then a 1950's RCA might be what you're after.


----------



## theveterans

JohnBal said:


> I think if its musicality and tone you're after, then a 1950's RCA might be what you're after.



If you mean the 5692's they're not the right one. The 5692s are more open, extended, sort of opposite of the traditional tube sound that is present with the stock tube. In simple terms, the tonality is exactly like passive mode, but much clearer, wider and more extended on both bass and treble. So if passive mode doesn't sound musical to the OP, the 5692 won't as well.


----------



## JohnBal

theveterans said:


> If you mean the 5692's they're not the right one. The 5692s are more open, extended, sort of opposite of the traditional tube sound that is present with the stock tube. In simple terms, the tonality is exactly like passive mode, but much clearer, wider and more extended on both bass and treble. So if passive mode doesn't sound musical to the OP, the 5692 won't as well.


Actually, I was referring to the RCA 6SN7. I have never heard the 5692, but the RCA 6SN7's I have heard have been smooth.


----------



## Odin412

JohnBal said:


> I think if its musicality and tone you're after, then a 1950's RCA might be what you're after.



Thanks for the tip! I'm a bit ambivalent about vintage tubes. On the one hand I've heard vintage tubes in other amps that sound absolutely incredible. On the other hand there is a finite supply of vintage tubes with corresponding escalating prices, and when they're gone they're gone for good. The RCA 6SN7 looks to be around $65 which isn't too bad so maybe I'll give that one a try. There's also a new production tube from Northern Electric that I haven't tried, but it's expensive at $90 so I'll probably try the RCA first to see if I like the 'vintage' tube sound.


----------



## liquidsmote (May 26, 2017)

Odin412 said:


> Thanks for the tip! I'm a bit ambivalent about vintage tubes. On the one hand I've heard vintage tubes in other amps that sound absolutely incredible. On the other hand there is a finite supply of vintage tubes with corresponding escalating prices, and when they're gone they're gone for good. The RCA 6SN7 looks to be around $65 which isn't too bad so maybe I'll give that one a try. There's also a new production tube from Northern Electric that I haven't tried, but it's expensive at $90 so I'll probably try the RCA first to see if I like the 'vintage' tube sound.



Try a Raytheon 6SN7GTB before the RCA if you can ... it can be had for less than $20 (all 3 of mine came with box and tested NOS) and really has that good vintage tone. I was a little dissapointed with RCA ... it's not bad, but for the price I was expecting more ... and IMO the Raytheon outperforms it by a good margin.


----------



## Odin412

liquidsmote said:


> Try a Raytheon 6SN7GTB before the RCA if you can ... it can be had for less than $20 (all 3 of mine came with box and tested NOS) and really has that good vintage tone. I was a little dissapointed with RCA ... it's not bad, but for the price I was expecting more ... and IMO the Raytheon outperforms it by a good margin.



Sweet! I became overwhelmed with temptation and ordered the Raytheon as well as the RCA. It'll be fun to check out some real vintage tubes!


----------



## liquidsmote (May 30, 2017)

Odin412 said:


> Sweet! I became overwhelmed with temptation and ordered the Raytheon as well as the RCA. It'll be fun to check out some real vintage tubes!



Nice! I hope they both work out for you and I totally know that temptation ... my wife said if she's any more little boxes come in she'll kill me ... so now I have to hide them! =D =D =D

If you don't mind me asking, where'd you pickup the Raytheon? I got all 3 from eBay, but the RCA came from the Depot. They just had a sale for ~$25 off that one, but I had already picked mine up full price =/ .

And BTW ... I've been eyeballing that Northern Electric too ... just because it looks so darn cool! I'll post if I ever pick it up!


----------



## MOFOfunk

I have found a Sylvania 6SN7W made in USA in a box fro the danish marine and a General Electric "Electronic Tube" 6SN7GT. Both look new. Have any of you guys any experience with these tubes? Sound impression are appreciated. What is the right price for them? The guy who is selling them wants 150US$ for both of them..


----------



## liquidsmote (May 31, 2017)

MOFOfunk said:


> I have found a Sylvania 6SN7W made in USA in a box fro the danish marine and a General Electric "Electronic Tube" 6SN7GT. Both look new. Have any of you guys any experience with these tubes? Sound impression are appreciated. What is the right price for them? The guy who is selling them wants 150US$ for both of them..



I have a couple Sylvania 6SN7GTBs as well as a military Sylvania 6SN7WGT brown base (VT-231). The civilian versions sound better to me than the WGT, with a clean Hi-Fi sound, great extension, bright but not sibilant highs, and slightly loos but nice lows. The WGT is a little more controlled than the GTBs, but not as "smooth." I paid just under $50 for mine from Antique Electronics Supply.

I am NOT a fan of the GE 6SN7GTA or 6SN7GTB ... they both sounded the same ... harsh, sibilant, and brittle are how I'd describe them. My opinion of the GEs runs contrary to most others', so YMMV. They were cheap though ... $40 with box (old GE style, not 60s redesign) from Tube Depot, and $20 without box from a seller I buy from on Reverb.


----------



## MOFOfunk

Thanks for those impressions and good guidance. It's a vast jungle out there for a tube newbie. 
The way you describe them it's definitely the 6sn7gtb that would fit my sound preferences most. Would you say your system is resolving/analytical, the opposite or in between? 

If any of you experienced tubies happend to fall over a good tube offer you are more than welcome to link me in a PM. It can be for Saga and Freya i'm researching for a friend with Saga and for my soon to be Freya. 

Now I'm going to check out:
https://www.tubesandmore.com/search/node/6sn7
http://www.thetubestore.com/Search?go=&search=6sn7
https://reverb.com/brand/tube-store


----------



## liquidsmote (Jun 2, 2017)

MOFOfunk said:


> Thanks for those impressions and good guidance. It's a vast jungle out there for a tube newbie.
> The way you describe them it's definitely the 6sn7gtb that would fit my sound preferences most. Would you say your system is resolving/analytical, the opposite or in between?
> 
> If any of you experienced tubies happend to fall over a good tube offer you are more than welcome to link me in a PM. It can be for Saga and Freya i'm researching for a friend with Saga and for my soon to be Freya.
> ...



With that said, don't hold yourself back from trying GTs, GTAs, GTBs, and WGTs ...

My system is capable of resolving the differences between any of the tubes I've thrown in, and I would say it trends towards a bright and exciting type of sound. My Saga preamp is currently in front of a Rogue Cronus Magnum, which itself has 9 tubes total tubes of various types. The total possibility of combinations can be overwhelming, but even a single change can make more than a subtle difference. I will say that of the 10+ different 6SN7 variants I've tried, the Raytheon (USA or Japan) has sounded great regardless of what I roll into the Magnum (or the EL84 Miniwatt I ran before).

I'd also check out tubedepot.com ... I've been ordering from them for a while, and they've always resolved any issues promptly without any muss or fuss.


----------



## Odin412

liquidsmote said:


> If you don't mind me asking, where'd you pickup the Raytheon? I got all 3 from eBay, but the RCA came from the Depot. They just had a sale for ~$25 off that one, but I had already picked mine up full price =/ .
> And BTW ... I've been eyeballing that Northern Electric too ... just because it looks so darn cool! I'll post if I ever pick it up!



I got the RCA from Tube Depot and the Raytheon from tctubes.com. I haven't had a chance to listen to the Raytheon yet, but I'll report back on what I hear. I've spent a little time with the RCA and I like what I've heard so far.


----------



## liquidsmote

Odin412 said:


> I got the RCA from Tube Depot and the Raytheon from tctubes.com. I haven't had a chance to listen to the Raytheon yet, but I'll report back on what I hear. I've spent a little time with the RCA and I like what I've heard so far.



Nice! I forgot about TCTubes! All 3 of my Raytheons are later gray plates ... it looks like yours will be a 50's black plate. Lol, now I'm jelly ... let us know what you think!


----------



## Odin412

liquidsmote said:


> Nice! I forgot about TCTubes! All 3 of my Raytheons are later gray plates ... it looks like yours will be a 50's black plate. Lol, now I'm jelly ... let us know what you think!



Well, so far I'm really liking the Raytheon tube! Deep, juicy bass; smooth, liquid midrange and clean, not overly bright treble. Very nice overall tone, too. I think I finally get what the vintage tube thing is all about.


----------



## Allanmarcus

HI. 

Right now I'm using a Mjolnir 2 as a headphone amp, but also as a preamp to a Koss ESP/950 and an Auralic Taurus Mk2.  I have a mullard 12AU7 in my Crack amp. Can I use this 12AU7 directly in the Saga?

In the Mj2 I have two WE396a tubes, based on a recommendation from @Jason Stoddard 
Has anyone tried a WE396A TO 6SN7 adapter to hear how the WE396a sounds in the Schiit?

Thanks


----------



## liquidsmote

Odin412 said:


> Well, so far I'm really liking the Raytheon tube! Deep, juicy bass; smooth, liquid midrange and clean, not overly bright treble. Very nice overall tone, too. I think I finally get what the vintage tube thing is all about.



You said it better than I did ... really summed up the quality of the sound I'm hearing from this tube! I'm glad you like it ... not all NOS are winners, but there are gems out there ... and not always the most expensive ones at that!


----------



## liquidsmote

Allanmarcus said:


> HI.
> 
> Right now I'm using a Mjolnir 2 as a headphone amp, but also as a preamp to a Koss ESP/950 and an Auralic Taurus Mk2.  I have a mullard 12AU7 in my Crack amp. Can I use this 12AU7 directly in the Saga?
> 
> ...



Unless I'm seriously misinformed ... no you cannot use a 12AU7 in the Saga for at least a couple reasons: 1) 12AU7 is a min-tube ... a 9 pin ... while the Saga uses a 8 pin octal socket. 2) the 6SN7 is a 6 volt tube ... the 12AU7 is a 12 volt tube. I've seen adapters out there but I wouldn't go that route ... there's plenty of affordable new issue and NOS 6SN7 tubes available that sound great. I've even tried a 6SL7 with no issue.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Has anyone tried the Sovtek 6sn7? It has a different internal design than the EH/Tung-Sol series.


----------



## Odin412 (Jul 20, 2017)

KoshNaranek said:


> Has anyone tried the Sovtek 6sn7? It has a different internal design than the EH/Tung-Sol series.



I haven't tried the 6SN7, but I've tried the Sovtek 6SL7 and liked it quite a bit. I found it to be very nice and smooth with good bass, with maybe a little hardness in the midrange. However, the tube is quite cheap so there's little harm in trying it.

I also tried a JJ 6SL7 but I found the midrange to be too 'hard'-sounding for my taste.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Odin412 said:


> I haven't tried the 6SN7, but I've tried the Sovtek 6SL7 and liked it quite a bit. I found it to be very nice and smooth with good bass, with maybe a little hardness in the midrange. However, the tube is quite cheap so there's little harm in trying it.
> 
> I also tried a JJ 6SL7 but I found the midrange to be too 'hard'-sounding for my taste.


The JJ 6sn7 is terrible. I gave it to the kids down the street for "show and tell"


----------



## treynolds155

So after many months of research I pulled the trigger on the Saga and I've got to say it is a HUGE improvement over my old Theta DS Pre that I was still using it's analog section. I went back and forth vs the Freya but am glad I got the one tube Saga. Out of the box I popped in a Raytheon that has been the buzz for sometime here, I fell in love with the sound immediately and like I said it's been a really big improvement in every way over the Theta. So after a month burn in, just for the heck of it I put in the stock tube and give it a listen and was surprised by how much fun it was, what a lively tube. Now I'm not saying it's better by any means, just that it was quite enjoyable, very detailed and in your face...not always in the best way but....fun!! I'll refer to that tube as my guilty pleasure lol. Anyway, if you're considering the Saga...go for it!! And don't be scared to start off with the stock tube, with only one to deal with...you will try others.


----------



## Odin412

treynolds155 said:


> Anyway, if you're considering the Saga...go for it!! And don't be scared to start off with the stock tube, with only one to deal with...you will try others.



Congratulations! I'm very happy with my Saga as well. It sounds great, the relay-stepped attenuator is way cool and it's fun to try out different tubes and change the sound a bit.


----------



## treynolds155

Thanks! As much as I love the sound with the Raytheon (it will be left in it for the most part) I'm thinking of trying out the new issue TungSol to see if it matches the sound character of the stock tube but perhaps be more refined. After burn in I found the sound of the Raytheon vs passive to be hardly noticeable. There really was something about the immediacy of the stock tube that I liked, not that I'd want to listen to it all the time. The Raytheon is a keeper for sure. You really got to love the Schiit out of this thing, one tube and you can change everything...and for only $350!!! My older high end vintage equipment is starting to get lonely lol


----------



## Makiah S

super excited to hear this does accept 6sn7, I understood that the 6H8C was the Russian equivalent of a 6sn7

I've got an extra Sylvania 6sn7GT Green Label that I'm not using, I'm curious to see how the Saga might improve the already super detailed sound of my Ember II with my White Lavel Syl 6sn7 GT


----------



## Odin412

I've had a lot of fun rolling a number of tubes through my Saga over the last few months and I though that I'd share my impressions of the tubes that I've tried so far. Please note that I'm very treble-sensitive so I tend to react strongly to tubes that have a bright tone to them. YMMV, of course:

Stock 6SN7    Nice and smooth
Tung-Sol 6SN7    Too bright
Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 Gold    Too bright
RCA 6SN7 (vintage 60s)    A little bit bright, but very nice bass and midrange
Raytheon 6SN7GTB (vintage 50s)    Deep bass, liquid midrange, smooth treble; very slight brightness
Raytheon 6SN7GTB (vintage 60s)    Deep bass, liquid midrange, very smooth treble - the version with chrome top has smoother treble
Sovtek 6SL7GT (vintage 70s)    Very nice and smooth with good bass; maybe a little hardness
JJ 6SL7    Hard-sounding midrange
RCA 5692 Red Base (vintage 50s)    Nice and smooth with good imaging and space; slight brightness
Raytheon 6SN7GT / VT-231 (vintage 60s)    Somewhat lean bass, but good space and very airy and extended treble; a bit too bright
Northern Electric  6SN7    Good bass, open, smooth and vivid midrange, airy treble; very spacious; a tiny bit bright


----------



## liquidsmote

Odin412 said:


> I've had a lot of fun rolling a number of tubes through my Saga over the last few months and I though that I'd share my impressions of the tubes that I've tried so far. Please note that I'm very treble-sensitive so I tend to react strongly to tubes that have a bright tone to them. YMMV, of course:
> 
> Stock 6SN7    Nice and smooth
> Tung-Sol 6SN7    Too bright
> ...



Awesome post! You beat me to the NE 6SN7 ... sounds like it compared to the 50's / 60's Raytheon? Also looks like the only tube you didn't find a little bright was the stock Russian ... I might have to give it another shot, as it's been a loooong time.

Have you tried any 6SL7 tubes? I've only tried a JAN PhilipsECG 6SL7WGT. I would like to hear the increase in distortion that's mentioned in the manual, but I didn't get it from the Philips. It too was a bit bright, but I've found that with all Philips ... octals and 9-pins.


----------



## limelake

I noticed no difference with the stock tube at all, with the FAA GE6SN7GTB the differerence was slight. How much difference is there move to some of the others out there ?


----------



## Odin412

liquidsmote said:


> Awesome post! You beat me to the NE 6SN7 ... sounds like it compared to the 50's / 60's Raytheon? Also looks like the only tube you didn't find a little bright was the stock Russian ... I might have to give it another shot, as it's been a loooong time.
> 
> Have you tried any 6SL7 tubes? I've only tried a JAN PhilipsECG 6SL7WGT. I would like to hear the increase in distortion that's mentioned in the manual, but I didn't get it from the Philips. It too was a bit bright, but I've found that with all Philips ... octals and 9-pins.



Thanks! I find that I really like the Northern Electric tube. It's not cheap, but I really like the sound. It looks cool too - it's so big that it just barely fits into the hole on the top cover. Initially I found it a bit bright but I dialed the 6 kHz band on the J River EQ back around 2 dB and that helped a lot. The only 6SL7 tubes I tried are the JJ (didn't like it) and Sovtek. The Sovtek is actually quite nice, but I thought that it sounded a bit 'hard' in the midrange sometimes. Maybe it's the added distortion that I'm hearing? When I feel like it maybe I'll look for a couple more 6SL7 to try out - they're not that expensive and it's fun to roll different tubes and listen to the differences.


----------



## Odin412

limelake said:


> I noticed no difference with the stock tube at all, with the FAA GE6SN7GTB the differerence was slight. How much difference is there move to some of the others out there ?



That's a tough question to answer since perception of sonic differences varies a lot among individuals, and only you can decide what does and doesn't make a difference for you. To me a new production Electro-Harmonix or a 1960s vintage Raytheon will sound noticeably different than the stock tube. Now, 'noticeable' in this context does not mean night and day difference, but a subtly different sound that you can hear. My advice would be to purchase a couple of inexpensive tubes and try them out to see what you think.


----------



## limelake

Okay thank you, How about new production tung sol ?


----------



## liquidsmote

limelake said:


> Okay thank you, How about new production tung sol ?





Odin412 said:


> Tung-Sol 6SN7 Too bright





liquidsmote said:


> 2) Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB Re-issue:
> For $20 this tube provides excellent SQ comparable, if not better than NOS. Full deep bass extension, wide sound stage, and clear crisp (but not brittle) highs. A real winner!



I think Odin was talking about the new production in his post. My impressions below his ... definitely on the brighter side of neutral, but the bass was nice. I run it every once in a while, but always go back to the Raytheon.

I DO need to pick up that NE 6SN7 Odin has. It is pricey in comparison to many, but is beautiful and I know would really pop sitting on the socket saver!


----------



## Odin412

I attached a photo of the Northern Electric 6SN7 in my Saga. As you can see it's quite large and almost fills the opening. (Apologies for the slightly out of focus image - my stupid phone had trouble focusing on the tube glass.)




NE 6SN7 in Saga by Odin412 on Head-Fi.org


----------



## liquidsmote

Odin412 said:


> I attached a photo of the Northern Electric 6SN7 in my Saga. As you can see it's quite large and almost fills the opening. (Apologies for the slightly out of focus image - my stupid phone had trouble focusing on the tube glass.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You weren't kidding ... that's tight! You should consider a socket saver just so you can see the bling bling of the gold base on that NE!


----------



## Nuttinbutair

I bought a Saga several weeks ago and have been rolling a few tubes through it. The Saga sounds great, and sounds clearly better than the Alps pot in my headphone amp. One tube vs. passive difference that I thought was odd: tubes make less difference compared to passive based on my system/hearing with head phones then tubes vs. passive when using speakers.

This seems odd to me because my HP rig is much better than the speakers in my current tinkering. The Saga is in a chain of:

Mac Mini > Bimby > Saga > Stax SRM-1 Mk2 > SR-404​
The speakers are cheap 18 year old Altec Lansing 2.1 powered units that output from the Saga in my desktop system.

With the speakers both the tone and the sense of an expanded soundstage are much more obvious with tubes. Has anyone else had a similar experience?


----------



## Synergist969 (Dec 27, 2017)

Dear Nuttinbutair:

   I too tend to hear more significant sound stage/imaging differences while listening to a loudspeaker based system than through headphones, (when trying different settings, i.e. passive/active/different tubes, etc.), even when both systems/component chains are of reasonably high and "equivalent"(?) resolution levels and the loudspeaker based system is "correctly"(?) set up in the listening space...(Please see my audio chain listing...)  I believe this is due to a combination of factors. 
1.  The way in which our ears/brain receives, and perceives/interprets sound...at least tens of thousands if not more years of natural refinement to identify, and interpret sounds with regard to location/distance, etc... 
2. The way in which the vast majority of recordings are made...(UNLESS the recording is made with a true binaural technique...), the vast majority of recordings are made utilizing one or more specific recording techniques, (microphone placement, minimal miking, minimal or no multi-tracking, etc., (at least for natural space acoustical recordings)), so as to maximize the positive sonic effect of a pair of loudspeakers set up to direct sound at the listener in the classic 60-60-60 degree/equilateral triangle configuration...


----------



## Nuttinbutair (Dec 27, 2017)

Thanks Synergist969.  I am still puzzling over the difference and think that your #1, our perception, is possibly the cause of the difference.  The acoustic part of the effect looks like it is described by the head-related transfer function.  The difference I am hearing could be HRTF and an effect due to the distortion of sound caused by the tube.  My thinking being that when both ears can hear the tube induced distortion from both speakers, our brains interpret the distortion as enhanced spatial detail.

I puzzled over that idea and don't think that seems quite right.  The Saga specs using the stock tube show a very low THD.  So the distortion should be nearly imperceptible.  Also, from what I have read, tubes tend to be rather linear when not driven into clipping.  I would expect the passive mode to be supremely linear.  So if this difference is due to distortion, could it be a distortion not measured by THD?

It could also be that the powered preamp drives the low end speaker amp better than the passive.  So maybe the amp quality, particularly of the input stage, is a cause of the more substantial difference in my case.  I'll have to tinker some more.


----------



## Nuttinbutair

Oh, and just in case it was not obvious, this is my first tube based bit of audio gear.  So yes, I am a tube noob!


----------



## Synergist969 (Dec 27, 2017)

Nuttinbutair said:


> Thanks Synergist969.  I am still puzzling over the difference and think that your #1, our perception, is possibly the cause of the difference.  The acoustic part of the effect looks like it is described by the head-related transfer function.  It could be an effect due to the distortion of sound caused by the tube.  My thinking being that when both ears can hear the tube induced distortion from both speakers, our brains interpret the distortion as enhanced spacial detail.  I puzzled over that idea and don't think that seems quite right.  The Saga specs using the stock tube show a very low THD.  So the distortion should be nearly imperceptible.
> 
> It could also be that the powered preamp drives the low end speaker amp better than the passive.  So maybe the amp quality, particularly of the input stage, is a cause of the more substantial difference in my case.  I'll have to tinker some more.



  Dear Nuttinbutair:

    Yes, I of course agree with your agreement of my "#1" reason...lol...and Yes, I agree that the H.T.F., (or lack thereof with headphone listening, unless the headphone amp. generates/implements a well designed H.T.,R. in the headphone signal path), impacts our perception of image location, depth, etc...

    If I recall correctly, at least the vast majority of we humans cannot reliably detect THD levels below.0.1%...?...at least as "distortion", however, just perhaps we DO perceive/interpret it as something else...and that may be MORE apparent via loudspeaker output than headphones...so, keep tinkering with your ideas...and let me know what else occurs to you...


----------



## Nuttinbutair

Getting back to the subject of this thread, I have three tubes that I am listening to alternately.  After reading this thread I'm sure the tube choices will be familiar to other readers.  My goal for the tubes was to add a bit more mid-range meat to the sound of my headphones, and add more spatial detail.  So after only a limited time using each, here are some early impressions:

Stock tube - On the headphones I struggle to identify if the Saga is in passive or active mode, without looking at the light.  The tube seems smooth and unoffensive, but not quite what I was after.
Raytheon 6SN7/GTB black plates, US made - This one is currently my favorite with the Stax.  I enjoy its laid back nature, full mid-range and solid bass.
Tung-Sol new 6SN7/GTB - I thought I was going to like this one the most from the descriptions from others.  So far it is too fatiguing for me in the high frequency range, even after running for about 40 hours. Could be the Stax present more high range, my ears are burned out, or the tube needs more running time.
More time may produce a different set of opinions, so I will report back if things change.


----------



## Odin412

Nuttinbutair said:


> Getting back to the subject of this thread, I have three tubes that I am listening to alternately.  After reading this thread I'm sure the tube choices will be familiar to other readers.  My goal for the tubes was to add a bit more mid-range meat to the sound of my headphones, and add more spatial detail.  So after only a limited time using each, here are some early impressions:
> 
> Stock tube - On the headphones I struggle to identify if the Saga is in passive or active mode, without looking at the light.  The tube seems smooth and unoffensive, but not quite what I was after.
> Raytheon 6SN7/GTB black plates, US made - This one is currently my favorite with the Stax.  I enjoy its laid back nature, full mid-range and solid bass.
> ...



Thanks for your impressions! I have the same impressions of the Raytheon and Tung-Sol tubes. I love the Raytheon and I find the Tung-Sol to be bright and fatiguing, and I'll be interested to hear if it changes with further use. Please keep us updated on what you find!


----------



## Nuttinbutair

Everyone's comments on this thread were a great resource for me, so I though I should contribute to the cause.


----------



## MWSVette

Just picked up the Schiit Saga used the stock tube for a few days.

Then I picked up this one,

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Sylvan...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

I have only had the new in the amp for a few hours but I like it.  I will try to give additional impressions after the tube has sometime to settle in.

I am looking for a couple more tubes to roll through the Saga.  If any of you have any of the following or tubes that you think I may be interested in trying and that you are willing to part with please let me know.

Tung Sol VT-231 GT black bottle oval getter from the 40's

Sylvania Bad Boy 6SN7WGT 40's or early 50's

RCA 5692 Red Base 40's or early 50's

Thanks


----------



## limelake

I see Schiit has a "Replacement Tubes" section in their product lineup.....8$ for 6SN7 russian tube...30$ for a new production tungsol.......I thought Jason didn't like new production tubes ? Did he get the best of the new production Tung sols ?


----------



## MWSVette

From the Schiit site news section;

In addition, Schiit added a new tube option for Saga and Freya—new production Tung-Sol brand 6SN7s. Customers had been asking for a new-production option, and the Tung-Sol brand tubes tested the best in a comparison of new 6SN7s.

“This is the first time we’ve recommended a new-production tube as an upgrade from NOS,” said Jason Stoddard. “But we’ve found that the Tung-sols are quieter, less microphonic, and more consistent than NOS, in this case. And, all Tung-sols are measured and matched here, both in terms of single-tube triode-to-triode balance and tube-to-tube.”


----------



## Delirious Lab

So has anyone gotten a LISST tube for the Saga?  Would love to read some impressions here...


----------



## Odin412

Has anyone tried the Shuguang Treasure Series CV-181Z tube? I tried to order it but the seller said that the base is too big to fit through the hole at the top.


----------



## liquidsmote (Sep 26, 2018)

Odin412 said:


> Has anyone tried the Shuguang Treasure Series CV-181Z tube? I tried to order it but the seller said that the base is too big to fit through the hole at the top.



I haven't, but the socket saver I use pushes the base of the 6SN7 to almost opening level:
(You will need to ask them to not install the bracket in the comments section)






https://www.eurotubes.com/store/pc/Octal-Socket-Saver-6p2775.htm

Unless the base diameter of the Treasure is larger than the SchiitHole, you should be good with a socket saver.

Hope you've been well! If you get the Treasure, let us know how you like it!


----------



## Odin412

liquidsmote said:


> I haven't, but the socket saver I use pushes the base of the 6SN7 to almost opening level:
> (You will need to ask them to not install the bracket in the comments section)
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks! That will work. I thought that the seller was kidding about the Treasure tube, but my new Psvane 6SN7 arrived today and that tube is so fat that it barely fits into the hole, so it may well be that the Treasure needs this adapter.


----------



## Delirious Lab

Instead of using a socket saver to raise the tube, has anyone tried enlarging the hole?


----------



## jseymour

Delirious Lab said:


> Instead of using a socket saver to raise the tube, has anyone tried enlarging the hole?



Why go through the hassle when $10 solves the problem?  If you enlarge the hole you either need to do it with the unit upside down or remove the case to prevent metal shavings getting on the PC board.  The socket saver also gets heat away from the board and makes it easier to swap tubes.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html


----------



## Delirious Lab

jseymour said:


> Why go through the hassle when $10 solves the problem?  If you enlarge the hole you either need to do it with the unit upside down or remove the case to prevent metal shavings getting on the PC board.  The socket saver also gets heat away from the board and makes it easier to swap tubes.
> 
> https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html


Just asking... If I had a tube that's too wide, I would consider it because I don't have a socket saver lying around, but I do have circular cutters.

And, since it apparently needs to be said, yes of course I would remove the case before doing this.


----------



## ICTWoody

Odin412 said:


> Thanks! That will work. I thought that the seller was kidding about the Treasure tube, but my new Psvane 6SN7 arrived today and that tube is so fat that it barely fits into the hole, so it may well be that the Treasure needs this adapter.





Delirious Lab said:


> Instead of using a socket saver to raise the tube, has anyone tried enlarging the hole?



When I had my Saga I used a Psvane tube in it. It would fit in the hole even with the ceramic base, but it would insert so far that the glass envelope of the tube was touching the aluminum of the case all around. So much so I wasn't even 100% sure the tube was FULLY inserted. I used a good quality socket-saver and didn't think about it anymore. It looks better with the tube raised up anyway, IMO. I think I got mine SS from tubesandmore.com and it was the perfect height It basically put the plug flush with the top of the case... maybe even a hair below. Worked great.

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/socket-saver-8-pin

- Woody


----------



## Odin412

I have listened to the Psvane 6SN7 for a while now and it has become my favorite tube. The bass is deep and juicy, the midrange is vibrant and lifelike and the treble is extended and not bright. There is something about the midrange on this tube that just makes it really enjoyable and makes me want to listen to more music. Very satisfying - and not without irony that after all my searching for (and spending on) vintage tubes my favorite tube is a new-production tube from China. Or maybe that's a good thing: One day all the vintage tubes will have either burned out or been snatched up by hoarders, so I'm glad that there are really good new-production tubes available.


----------



## Nuttinbutair

Odin412 said:


> I have listened to the Psvane 6SN7 for a while now and it has become my favorite tube. The bass is deep and juicy, the midrange is vibrant and lifelike and the treble is extended and not bright. There is something about the midrange on this tube that just makes it really enjoyable and makes me want to listen to more music. Very satisfying - and not without irony that after all my searching for (and spending on) vintage tubes my favorite tube is a new-production tube from China. Or maybe that's a good thing: One day all the vintage tubes will have either burned out or been snatched up by hoarders, so I'm glad that there are really good new-production tubes available.



Hey Odin, and others using the Psvane tubes, which tube are you folks using?  According the the web site (http://en.psvane.com) there are two tubes in the Hi-Fi series that are 6SN7.  There are also two CV181 tubes in the T series that Psvane says can replace the 6SN7GT tubes.


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## Odin412

Nuttinbutair said:


> Hey Odin, and others using the Psvane tubes, which tube are you folks using?  According the the web site (http://en.psvane.com) there are two tubes in the Hi-Fi series that are 6SN7.  There are also two CV181 tubes in the T series that Psvane says can replace the 6SN7GT tubes.



I use the one called 6SN7: http://a.co/d/euy7Dbj

There is another version called CV181 here: http://a.co/d/a6BLBQ3 
I have ordered this one but haven't received it yet.


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## Deaj

I have a Saga on the way. I picked it up used at a great price (owner purchased it and never installed it, as new with box and all contents - owner didn't have a tube for it but included a LSST, just under $300 shipped). No tube included gave me an excuse to source a few NOS tubes. From the source I used to buy guitar amp tubes I purchased a GE 6SN7GTB and a couple of black base RCA 6SN7GTB's, all better than 90%, all with both triodes balanced within 2%, all for under $30! That should keep the Saga sounding good for a while. 

While I can't provide any comment on stock tube vs the aforementioned NOS tubes I will have an opportunity to provide some comparison between the LSST and the NOS GE & RCA 6SN7GTB tubes. Once the holiday season is over and I've had some time to listen I'll post my thoughts.


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## Delirious Lab

Has anyone inadvertently inserted a tube wrong in the Saga?  I don't know if this is inherent to 6SN7 tubes, or the socket that Schiit uses, but the notch in the middle fits quite loosely.  To the point where it can even go in when misaligned.

And so, a couple months ago, I put in a Tung-Sol off by 1/8 of a turn.  Holy Schiit that was scary.

Everything is now fine after some warranty repair on the Saga and the loudspeakers (this one with a stern talking-to), a broken tube and a fried LISST.

So be careful out there.  It's called tube rolling, not tube twisting!


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## golfbravobravo

Delirious Lab said:


> Has anyone inadvertently inserted a tube wrong in the Saga?  I don't know if this is inherent to 6SN7 tubes, or the socket that Schiit uses, but the notch in the middle fits quite loosely.  To the point where it can even go in when misaligned.
> 
> And so, a couple months ago, I put in a Tung-Sol off by 1/8 of a turn.  Holy Schiit that was scary.
> 
> ...



I did fry my Freya by putting in the wrong tunes though.  I shall note your warning, I have had enough white smoke......


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## exdmd

I prefer to buy tubes made from 1940 to 1970 when tubes were king and the manufacturers had their processes and secret sauces down pat. The new Tung Sol 6SN7GTB offered as a $25 option for the Saga is OK, nothing to get excited about, very warm sounding. Trying a handful of NOS tubes my favorite lower cost option is the 1951-1953 Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy, if you are patient you can get a three rivet hole for about $70 on eBay. Nothing I have tried sounds better than a 1940s Tung Sol 6SN7GT though. I managed to grab a few before the prices shot up. The Saga is great value I have compared it to preamps costing four times as much and preferred the Saga. I use mine between a Yggy A2 and a Kenzie tube amp.


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## Gazny

Anyone have new favorites or tubes you enjoy pairing with certain types of music? 

ive been enjoying my GTA and GTB dumont/G.E. mid focused and smooth.


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