# Audio-gd Master-5/6/8/9 balanced head amp/ preamp



## tim3320070

I  have been waiting on this for a looong time.
http://audio-gd.com/Master/Master-5/Master-5EN.htm


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## bobxxxbob

Wow! Looks too cool!


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## runswithaliens

Thanks for the heads up... and right when I was looking for a high quality amp/pre-amp - and it even has a remote! Now if only it had tubes sticking out the top of it.


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## .Sup

Just seen this but its a bit too expensive for me I think. I don't really like buttons instead of volume pot.


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## BenBau

I see there is a new 3-pin ACSS connector. I have a Phoenix and a Ref.7 with the "old" 4-pin connector. Does anyone know it's just a new connector or is the signal itself also different? I really like this "one case" Phoenix!


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## tim3320070

Quote: 





.sup said:


> Just seen this but its a bit too expensive for me I think. I don't really like buttons instead of volume pot.


 


  That concerned me too but he states that it's better SQ. Also, the knobs were breaking in shipment too often I guess. I am hoping to be the first buyer- I sold my Phoenix months ago for this.


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## tim3320070

Quote: 





benbau said:


> I see there is a new 3-pin ACSS connector. I have a Phoenix and a Ref.7 with the "old" 4-pin connector. Does anyone know it's just a new connector or is the signal itself also different? I really like this "one case" Phoenix!


 

 Just a different connector, same 4 pin wiring. They have the cable that goes from the old style to the new mini-xlr type. The biggest difference for this over the Phoenix is the ACSS output (there are other internal changes but I don't know what). This only matters if you have an ACSS speaker amp (which I do).


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## .Sup

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> That concerned me too but he states that it's better SQ. Also, the knobs were breaking in shipment too often I guess. I am hoping to be the first buyer- I sold my Phoenix months ago for this.


 
  So Tim you knew this will get released? I always wanted a full sized balanced headphone amp. I heard about the knobs breakig but how does it help make the sound better? Because its all digital now?


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## tim3320070

Quote: 





.sup said:


> So Tim you knew this will get released? I always wanted a full sized balanced headphone amp. I heard about the knobs breakig but how does it help make the sound better? Because its all digital now?


 
  Yeah, I knew about it months ago but was asked to keep it confidential. I was bugging him to make a Phoenix with ACSS output and apparently he had it in the works already.
   
  It may well have stayed in Chinese as I don't really understand it but this is from the webpage:
  [size=medium]Volume control:[/size]
 [size=10pt]   [/size][size=10pt]  The volume control is also different from conventional technology. Conventional volume control technology is [/size][size=x-small]the volume control implement in the analog amp input stage through a volume pot to reduce the signal . but the volume pots quality effect the sound quality direct , the low quality volume pot cause lost the detail and channels imbalance cause the soundstage distortion  . Even the high performance volume pot still cause the detail lose.[/size]
 [size=10pt]    [/size][size=x-small]But in the Master-5 , we applied the I/V conversion volume control , the volume control just  a [/size][size=x-small]variable passive I/V conversion place at the ACSS amp output , [/size][size=10pt]where the output is the current signal, not the voltage signal. The volume control is I/V conversion, and the volume depends on the current (I) conversion to the voltage (V). (Like R-2R D/A chips output passive I/V conversion)  [/size][size=x-small]It can keep the signal frequency band flat and not lost any detail.[/size][size=x-small] It can't degrade on sound quality in every volume level . After the volume , there are four groups [/size][size=x-small] diamond non-feedback buffer output stages offer the very low output impedance  .[/size]
 [size=10pt]            Mark Levinson also knows that current volume control has great benefits, so in their Top End preamp NO.32 volume control, they use many components to change the signal to current signal (I), then through the R-2R network to control the volume, and then change back to voltage signal (V) again. But Master-5 is simply a more complete work in terms of the current signal, and technically, it is superior to conventional technology.[/size]
 [size=x-small]            The volume control quality is much important in the real balance gear . It must guarantee the four channels signal control exact to achieve the performance of the real balance gear .  If the cool and hot of the balance signal can't guarantee exact, the balance output will has large distortion cause the sound quality and performance even much worst than a single end gear waste the  balance gear  design and the cost. 
             In Master-5 is applied a four channels digital control relays based volume control. Master-5 has 99 steps exponential characteristic volume control allow users smooth to control the volume level . .Master-5 has total four channels through changing the DALE resistors to control the volume for avoid channels imbalanced ,achieve the best performance and sound quality of the gear.[/size]


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## Headphony

Any thoughts on how this would compare to the Phoenix?


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## BenBau

I hope there's a little bit more bass compared to the Phoenix!


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## .Sup

Thanks for clarification Tim!


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## BenBau

I could not resist and ordered one. I really love the one-box design. The Ref.7 on top of my Phoenix alway looked a bit "messy".


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## tim3320070

I thought _I_ had a problem!


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## BenBau

I know, I know, but OCD can be an advantage for an audiophile


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## tim3320070

You might ask Kingwa if the XLR out from the Master-5 is any better than the Phoenix since you're not using ACSS to your Brystons. Then again, you could go for the Master-2 Mono's and compare to the Bryston. It's only money.


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## Soundinista

Very, _very_ intriguing! Do report back on that beauty, guys, please.


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## BenBau

I have had de C-1 Master mono-blocks for over a year, but sold them a few months ago after trying the Brystons. I thought they were a bit too neutral for my taste. They sounded boring and I was always yawning, trying to pop my ears open, while listening to them. I really like the sound of my current setup, but now it's time to try something new.


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## tim3320070

Yeah, I don't think his amps will ever be confused for dynamic. But this is why I have heavy sounding speakers (Mirage M7si) and headphone (D7000). His amps tighten these bass-heavy guys up and sound wonderful to my ear. I like that "wall of sound" that deep bass brings but I like it clean sounding.


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## dyl1dyl

It looks like it can work well with headphones as well as in a good speaker rig


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## Audio-Omega

Is it worth buying only for use as headphone amp ?


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## tim3320070

I just ordered this beast.


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## Audio-Omega

When will you get it ?


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## tim3320070

They say 2 weeks but that might not include 300 hours burn-in and ship time, etc. I am guessing a month.


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## Audio-Omega

I would buy one if I didn't have Apex Peak.  May be I should get it for balanced usage.


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## kccheng

Audio-GD Master 6 Real Balanced ACSS Preamp & Headphone amp is released.
   
  It is higher headphone output power than Master 5.
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-5/Master-5EN.htm


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## elwappo99

Quote: 





kccheng said:


> Audio-GD Master 6 Real Balanced ACSS Preamp & Headphone amp is released.
> 
> It is higher headphone output power than Master 5.
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-5/Master-5EN.htm


 


  Wow, that thing is pretty powerful.


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## tim3320070

I wonder if it's too much for my Denon D7000? I have the option to get this over the 5 and I think I will. I've asked if there is any SQ difference between the two.


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## FauDrei

tim3320070 said:


> ...I've asked if there is any SQ difference between the two.


 
   
  ...and the answer was?


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## tim3320070

Won't get a response until tonight- I asked too late. But I asked the difference between the 2 and he stated what is says on the website basically- "The different is the Master 5 output transistors is power by the class A PSU, the Master6 is not so have not power output limit."
  The Master-6 is a bit more powerful than the Phoenix and I could run my D7000 at about a max of 18/99 on the Phoenix so I am concerned I'll be having the volume very low.


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## somestranger26

I would opt for the  5 if you're using with D7000 headphones. I think the Master-6 is really aimed at HE-6 and LCD-2 owners only, and I do think you'd be stuck at a very low volume setting. I don't even need 9 o'clock on my NFB-10 to drive the HE-6, and it has very similar output power to the Master-6. The 5 should sound better just because of the class A power supply.


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## tim3320070

That's what I am leaning towards, it's a lot of power and I don't plan on getting any open headphones (I prefer speakers anyway).


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## Audio-Omega

I guess Master 5 has more than enough power to drive Sennheiser HD800.


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## tim3320070

[size=x-small]50 ohm:   1700MW
 100 ohm: 2400MW
 300 ohm: 1200MW
 600 ohm:   600MW[/size]
*[size=x-small](Balanced , Class A)[/size]*
   
*[size=x-small]Phoenix has:[/size]*
  25 ohm: 1000MW
  62 ohm: 2500MW
 100 ohm: 3000MW
 300 ohm: 1800MW
 600 ohm: 900MW
   
  Still a lot of juice IMO and it's why I choosing it over the 6.


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## elwappo99

Surprised the Phoenix has more power than the Master 5. I think your choice of the Master 5 is still good though. I think even the Master 5 would be able to drive HE-6 to a decent level, depending on source. Too much power is a bad thing if you're dealing with those Denons.


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## dyl1dyl

Hey guys, if possible, would sm1 mind posting some comparisons of se vs balanced for the master 5. Thanks


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## tim3320070

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Surprised the Phoenix has more power than the Master 5. I think your choice of the Master 5 is still good though. I think even the Master 5 would be able to drive HE-6 to a decent level, depending on source. Too much power is a bad thing if you're dealing with those Denons.


 


  I am most interested in it as a preamp first (to my C10SE), head amp second.


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## FauDrei

Just a short notion: It is possible to order both - Master-5 and Master-6 with custom (lowered) gain.
   
  Do not know how would this affect preamp function, but lowering the gain would make much better use of both volume control scales for headphone listening. I reckon Master-6 with +6dB/+9dB gain could be a cracker for HE-x and the likes.


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## tim3320070

Are you asking _me _about getting both? If so, I can't do that but I get what you mean. You get the 6 and I'll get the 5 and we can trade opinions based on our headphones (you know you want one).


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## .Sup

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Are you asking _me _about getting both? If so, I can't do that but I get what you mean. You get the 6 and I'll get the 5 and we can trade opinions based on our headphones (you know you want one).


 

  
  I think he is asking if both can be ordered with reduced gain. Not both at the same time but if both have that option to be ordered that way. That's what I gathered from his post anyway, I could be wrong.


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## FauDrei

Huh... didn't expect to be so unclear... Sup got me right, but just in case let me rephrase: Both - Master-5 and Master-6 have custom (lowered) gain option when ordering one/any/either/each of them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  ...and yes Tim - I want one, but for the time being my wallet puts veto on that... and yes - it would be 6 (except the output transistors, the whole 6, including pre-drive output stage is the same as 5 -- pure class A, not to mention that those 8-9W will firmly grip my HE-5, HE-500 and melt my other phones).
   
  Man... just recently I've maxxed my Roc and now it really kicks a**. It should put my headamp upgradeitis to rest for some time, but no... The irony is that in the process I've empirically learned that even small PSU upgrade (4 caps) can make quite perceivable difference. I can only imagine what kind of improvement those dual mono parallel multi stage class A Master PSU sections are carrying with them. Well... once I finish fixing and maxxing my RE-1/7 I hope...


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## superjohny

it would be really interesting to see how master 5/6 competes with LF or Leben which is more than double the price tag.


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## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Are you asking _me _about getting both? If so, I can't do that but I get what you mean. You get the 6 and I'll get the 5 and we can trade opinions based on our headphones (you know you want one).


 






 I look forward to your impressions Tim to say the least.
   


  Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Huh... didn't expect to be so unclear... Sup got me right, but just in case let me rephrase: Both - Master-5 and Master-6 have custom (lowered) gain option when ordering one/any/either/each of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Absolutely right FD....I've been waiting to hear from you on the MAX front....now to get that source completed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The PSU MAX mod for the Phoenix made for a _*considerable*_ improvement...there is no reason for you not to expect big gains once the RE7/RE1 are done.
   
  PM me in a few weeks with your impressions of the MAXed ROC if you have time...I'd love to hear what you have to say.
   
  Peete.


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## tim3320070

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> I look forward to your impressions Tim to say the least.


 

 Shipping today (along with NFB10SE) so maybe end of next week sometime.


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## FauDrei

tim3320070 said:


> Shipping today (along with NFB10SE) so maybe end of next week sometime.


 
  Good times ahead for Tim... We are all ears (and eyes).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   


pricklely peete said:


> Absolutely right FD....I've been waiting to hear from you on the MAX front....now to get that source completed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Getting there Peete, getting there:
   

   
  It's been sooo long since I've last heard RE-1/7... almost 10 months of listening to DacMagic. It's funny how you adapt to it and it sounds good to you... OK, DM was "sligthly" modified, powered by Little Pinkie, combined with Audiophilleo2, XLRed to MAXed Roc... but still...


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## BenBau

yippee, mine shipped too!


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## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Good times ahead for Tim... We are all ears (and eyes).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You are almost done !!!! Looks like just a few more hours of work FD ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You are in a for a real treat once you have the RE"X" back in the signal pathway. The DM with the Pinkie is a nice low cost alternative (relatively low cost) but be prepared to pick your jaw off the carpet once RE"X" is inserted
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
   


  Quote: 





benbau said:


> yippee, mine shipped too!


 


  Excellent....congrats !!
   
  Peete.


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## BenBau

Delivered!
   
  Heavy & sturdy as all Audio-gd stuff.
  No scratches and dents.
  Posted a quick pic in my gallery.
  Have to go to work now, will upload some more pics later today.


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## nigeljames

Quote: 





benbau said:


> Delivered!
> 
> Heavy & sturdy as all Audio-gd stuff.
> No scratches and dents.
> ...


 

 Looking forward to your opinions vs Phoenix


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## superjohny

really interested to know how it compares the leben or LF though price tag is twice as much


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## tim3320070

I was hoping to be the first owner darnit, looks like a few more days- congrats BenBau. I haven't had the Phoenix for months while waiting on this so I can't compare anything other than NFB-10SE.


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## BenBau

A quick first impressions.
  Packaging was perfect as always.
  Some light damage on the left back corner. Nothing really serious. Probably happened during packaging. Unfortunately still "standard" on Audio-gd stuff. Also, degreasing is necessary. Build precision is fair. Also a really sharp edge on the back side. It's heavy and sturdy though. This is still "as good as it gets" with Audio-gd. I buy the brand for it's sound quality, so for me it's perfectly acceptable.
  Because the DAC and Master-5 have the same size, I can put the latter on top. I expect it to get as hot as my Phoenix. On top there's better heat dissipation.
  The new ACSS connector is a lot better, it clicks and locks. I like the short black cable (the older one was pink). No pink power cable. No serial cable.
  As a rule, do not listen to new Audio-gd stuff before burning in at least 200 hours. After connecting everything, I could not resist putting the HD650 on my head. Wow, this thing sounded great COLD! My Phoenix has to warm up at least an hour to get some bass and clarity, but the Master-5 is cold almost on the same level. This is promising...


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## FauDrei




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## .Sup

Quote: 





benbau said:


> A quick first impressions.
> Packaging was perfect as always.
> Some light damage on the left back corner. Nothing really serious. Probably happened during packaging. Unfortunately still "standard" on Audio-gd stuff. Also, degreasing is necessary. Build precision is fair. Also a really sharp edge on the back side. It's heavy and sturdy though. This is still "as good as it gets" with Audio-gd. I buy the brand for it's sound quality, so for me it's perfectly acceptable.
> Because the DAC and Master-5 have the same size, I can put the latter on top. I expect it to get as hot as my Phoenix. On top there's better heat dissipation.
> ...


 
  How much did everything with shipping costs and custom fees set you back Ben?


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## BenBau

Total: 1380 euros.
Tax was "only" 95 euros (we even have to pay import tax over the shipping costs over here).
Customs value $300 - Stated as "PC sound card" :wink_face:


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## tim3320070

Mine is in the house finally. I was waiting since January. I really missed this sound quality since selling the Phoenix. It needs a few days before I can comment further.


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## .Sup

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Mine is in the house finally. I was waiting since January. I really missed this sound quality since selling the Phoenix. It needs a few days before I can comment further.


 


  But you don't need to wait with pictures.


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## tim3320070

Sure


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## .Sup

Thanks Tim, it looks amazing on top of your DAC.


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## tme110

They do look good together. I liked the separate PS with the Phoenix but it does make sense that they'd make a HPA to match their larger DACs. Of course it must make for a very large system?

Do you still need to use the DI?

Do you have different phones? I'm curious how you like the push button volume esp wrt to switching phones. I like being able to tell where the volume is before I turn my amp on and I like knowing exactly where to swing the knob for my grado's or sens or etc.


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## DarknightDK

So how does it sound compared to other amps out there? I'm seriously considering this and can't wait for more detailed impressions on the Master 5.


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## tim3320070

Yes, I use the DI still, this system is computer based for music but I run my Blu-ray player (movies) and my HD radio tuner (NPR) through it as well.
  I don't love the button approach (I can't reach over in the dark and adjust as easily but I'm getting the feel for it). But I understand the move- the knobs broke in transit and they were more money. Kingwa states it's better for SQ too, I don't know. All his volume systems have memory so you don't have to worry about it starting loud, it will start where it was left last or can start from level 0 (I think- maybe it's 1 not sure).


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## BenBau

After about 80 hours burn-in I am really impressed. This amp is really something.

First the BASS, it's amazing. The bass is not only "louder", but it also goes to subsonic levels. Did someone secretly planted a sub into my headphones? As a pre-amp, my B&Ws are producing lows I have never heard; "O.K. you can tell me now, where did you hide the subwoofer".

In the high frequency range this thing also goes, where the Phoenix stops. Clarity, detail, space, it's all there. I always had a feeling something was missing (one of the primary reasons I upgraded). No harshness, no artificial "loudness", it's just MAGIC.

The extension of the sound spectrum is not a simple EQ-thing, there is really MORE music. What is truly amazing, is that there is more "blackness" between all these (extra) layers of sound. This is what the Phoenix made such a special amp and what was described here before by others. The Master-5 brings it to another level. The separation between the musical layers makes this the best amp I have ever heard. I do not believe music can sound better than this.

As expected, this amp does get hot, but because it's on top of my Ref.7, not as hot as my Phoenix. I can still touch it without burning my hands.

Another plus: the IR reception is a lot better. I don't have to point my Nevo directly at the amp. I can point in any direction and the Master listens.

This is an amazing amp and a worthy successor to the Phoenix. Respect to Kingwa for designing this wonderful amp.


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## tim3320070

I agree on the bass. Kind of surprised me. Not that it's boosted, no that at all.
  BenBau-  I'm sure the Bryston is great, but ACSS to the Master-5 might be worth a try for you. I like most of what they produce but the amps are what awed me.


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## lmswjm

Wow, this gets me thinking about one day getting the Master-6 with an HE-6 and some Thunderpants to boot.


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## tim3320070

I'm not sure how well the 6 would do with your D7000. I am on 07/99 with my D7000/ Master-5 and it's a nice volume. I can't go beyond 15-16 without ears hurting. I'm really glad I didn't go with the 6. Just an FYI.
   
  Edit: Hooked up the DT770/600 and they require about 28-30 for similar volume as D7000 at 07 (both balanced).


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## lmswjm

What volume did you listen at on the Phoenix with the Denons?


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## tim3320070

About 10-12 I think, pretty similar.


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## BenBau

According to the specs, the Phoenix does 900mW @ 600Ohm and the Master-5 does 600mW. Still, on my Phoenix the perfect volume was 45/70 and on the Master-5 it's 30/70. I guess it's because of the extended sound signature.
   
  Tim, the sound is going to change drastically during the burn-in. The bass heaviness will slowly fade away. The bass will still be there, but more "subsonic". The highs will come and bring the sound in balance.
  I did have the Master-1 monoblocks, but sold them after a year, because I found them to neutral (=boring). I use ACSS TO the Master-5 from my Ref.7 DAC. I think you mean FROM the Master?
   
  One more thing about the sound. The difference between 16/44 and 24/96 is very clear now. On the Phoenix, high-def music was only a little bit better than the usual 16/44 FLACs, but on the Master-5 the difference is breathtaking.
   
  By the way, did I already tell you I LOVE this amp?


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## olor1n

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Sure


 


  That is a serious looking rig. Must sound as good as it looks.


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## tim3320070

Quote: 





benbau said:


> According to the specs, the Phoenix does 900mW @ 600Ohm and the Master-5 does 600mW. Still, on my Phoenix the perfect volume was 45/70 and on the Master-5 it's 30/70. I guess it's because of the extended sound signature.
> 
> Tim, the sound is going to change drastically during the burn-in. The bass heaviness will slowly fade away. The bass will still be there, but more "subsonic". The highs will come and bring the sound in balance.
> I did have the Master-1 monoblocks, but sold them after a year, because I found them to neutral (=boring). I use ACSS TO the Master-5 from my Ref.7 DAC. I think you mean FROM the Master?
> ...


 
  Yes, I meant to, not from.
  I am worried now because I am looking at my Master-5 which has 4-pin ACSS output (large XLR style) and my C10SE has the smaller 3-pin ACSS inputs. I am wondering if I can do ACSS from the Master-5 to the C10SE (I told them this was the setup for me). I am waiting on responses from Kingwa.
   
  I am waiting on posting any impressions for at least 3-4 days. Right now, it sounds very impressive through D7000 but the real test is the speaker setup for which I need ACSS cables yet apparently.


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## .Sup

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Yes, I meant to, not from.
> I am worried now because I am looking at my Master-5 which has 4-pin ACSS output (large XLR style) and my C10SE has the smaller 3-pin ACSS inputs. I am wondering if I can do ACSS from the Master-5 to the C10SE (I told them this was the setup for me). I am waiting on responses from Kingwa.
> 
> I am waiting on posting any impressions for at least 3-4 days. Right now, it sounds very impressive through D7000 but the real test is the speaker setup for which I need ACSS cables yet apparently.


 


  Old connector on the right, new one on the left. Is this what you want?


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## tim3320070

No (that connector is no longer), they use an XLR on the master series and a mini type XLR on everything else. Check the pictures on the back of the Master-5 and the back of the C10SE.
  The problem I see is, they use a 4-pin on the Master series and a smaller 3-pin on everything else so I am confused. I will let you know what Kingwa says.
   
  Edit: Kingwa confirmed I cannot use the Master series with non Master series equipment via ACSS (other connections work).
   
  Any one want to but my C10SE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?


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## tme110

well that an 'interesting' development.  very strange.


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## macrog

Hello
   
  You cant use a master series pre or power amp with a non master series pre or power amp via acss connection.
   
  You can however use any A-g acss dac with the Master series preamps via acss connection.
   
  I have fed my Master 1 preamp from the acss outputs of a Reference 7.1, Reference 7HE, NFB-7 and NFB-8 without problems. You just need the right cables. The Master series preamps now have the new standard acss plugs on the inputs.
   
  The acss outputs on the Master series preamps and inputs on the Master series power amps are via a 4 pin XLR connection.
   
  I hope this is helpful.
   
  Macrog
   
  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> No (that connector is no longer), they use an XLR on the master series and a mini type XLR on everything else. Check the pictures on the back of the Master-5 and the back of the C10SE.
> The problem I see is, they use a 4-pin on the Master series and a smaller 3-pin on everything else so I am confused. I will let you know what Kingwa says.
> 
> Edit: Kingwa confirmed I cannot use the Master series with non Master series equipment via ACSS (other connections work).
> ...


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## tim3320070

Thanks- I am getting it sorted out with Kingwa. I did not realize they worked in one direction and not the other. Edwin (or whomever) did not realize this either apparently when I was ordering the Master-5 and the ACSS cable for it to work with the C10SE.


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## tim3320070

I am hearing what BenBau was saying about 24/96. It's more than that with this amp, it's resolving to the extreme on good recordings but manages to keep it without fatigue.
  Rush Moving Pictures 24/96 "Vital Signs" is visceral, clear and engaging with the D7000, volume be damned. Geddy's bass is something else, so clear.
  Wow!


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## .Sup

Is a thin sounding amplifier or thick? Does it have body?


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## tim3320070

It doesn't add bass or warmth, it doesn't have a sound signature. If you want it to make bass-shy headphones sound fuller, it won't. However, it makes bass heavy cans like my D7000 better in the bass as it seems to refine it or tighten it up (whatever the term, it sounds better).
  Listening to Jeffrey Luck Lucas, it's like he's standing right behind me singing in my ear. Pretty striking how real it sounds.


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## BenBau

I'm almost at the 200 hours mark.
  Did some real listening this afternoon.
  "The Wall" 24/96 from Pink Floyd on my speakers. It was like listening to a surround system. The music was just EVERYWHERE. In the beginning I pressed the mute button a few times, because I was convinced someone was calling or was coming up the stairs. Amazing....


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## tim3320070

I am hoping to get my speaker rig going with this soon (Kingwa has been very helpful).
  I am having the pause issues with the D7000 too- I keep thinking my daughter is walking up behind me but it's the music from the very far right or left- huge soundstage.
  This unit is really tough on bad recordings- they sound _really _bad. Try some old Chris Isaak recordings, they sound like he recorded them on a radio shack cassette player. But the flip side is good recordings (or remastered stuff) sounds amazingly good.


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## BenBau

That's what I've experienced too. Bad music (like low bitrate mp3) really sounds bad.


----------



## tim3320070

I got the ACSS connection working between the Master-5 and my C10SE. This was my fault mostly as I didn't realize the ACSS connection cannot work in that direction.
  Kingwa sent detailed instructions with a marked-up image- some soldering and snipping and a redo of one end of the ACSS cable they sent (Neutrik 4-pin on the master-5 side) and all works great. Better than great actually. BenBau and I have some serious listening to enjoy. I sound like a love-sick fanboy copying his remarks but the sound is truly kind of spread out in a way that no headphone can replicate like speakers. Sound is delicate, refined, detailed, smooth.
  Well done again Kingwa.


----------



## DarknightDK

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I got the ACSS connection working between the Master-5 and my C10SE. This was my fault mostly as I didn't realize the ACSS connection cannot work in that direction.
> Kingwa sent detailed instructions with a marked-up image- some soldering and snipping and a redo of one end of the ACSS cable they sent (Neutrik 4-pin on the master-5 side) and all works great. Better than great actually. BenBau and I have some serious listening to enjoy. I sound like a love-sick fanboy copying his remarks but the sound is truly kind of spread out in a way that no headphone can replicate like speakers. Sound is delicate, refined, detailed, smooth.
> Well done again Kingwa.


 
   

 [size=medium]Thanks for your initial impressions. 
   
  How does the Master 5 sound compared to other amps in the market? Particularly, how does it compare to  the NFB10SE? What are the differences in SQ between your Ref 8 + Master 5 and the NFB10SE?​[/size]


----------



## tme110

I didn't know there was  a 24/96 version of the wall.
  
  Quote: 





benbau said:


> "The Wall" 24/96 from Pink Floyd on my speakers.


----------



## BenBau

You're right, it's not an official release. It was made by a friend with some crazy $10.000+ record player and a $$$$$ studio.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Sounds good you guys.........speakers really show the level of detail in sound staging etc...it's hard to go back to cans (for me at least).
   
  Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Nevermind- misunderstood you Peete


----------



## FauDrei

Tim, can you, please, write a line or two on the similarities (if any) and differences between Master-5, Phoenix and Roc?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## tim3320070

Well, it's been too long since the Phoenix was around. Suffice to say I don't feel any let down with the Master-5 and I can't be certain the Master-5 is an improvement over the Phoenix with headphones- don't take that for them being equal, it's just been too long since I had the Phoenix. However, going from the Roc to the Phoenix was interesting- the soundstage got wider with the Phoenix. This didn't necessarily mean better fidelity but a more spacious sound. The Master-5 sounds really good- that floating, 3D sound is pretty compelling (with speakers). This would be a good question for Kingwa.


----------



## Northernwind

Tim
  Please can you write few words about sound of C10SE? How it sounds compared to other amps you have heard? Why you purchase C10SE, not Master-3? They both in similar price range.


----------



## FauDrei

If I'm not mistaken - Tim got his C-10 SE quite some time before Master-3 or Master-5 were released.


----------



## tim3320070

No, I got Master-5 and 10SE at the same time (about 3-4 week ago actually). I use the Master-5 with a C10SE (modified to work with Master-5) for my main rig with D7000's and older Mirage speakers. The NFB10SE is a second setup I use with my DT770/600.
  I've known about the Master-5 since January though. Patience has its virtues.
   
  Northernwind- I don't know what you mean, the Master-3 is an amp?


----------



## macrog

I am also fascinated then.
   
  Why the C-10SE and not the Master 3 power amp?
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog


----------



## tim3320070

Misunderstanding on my part- I was thinking you were saying NFB10SE (brain fart).
   
  I got the C10SE just before he released the Master-3 (January maybe). He had me modify the C10 to work with the ACSS output of the Master-5, I then modified the ACSS cable he sent by reterminating one end to 4-pin XLR. Works great. I never realized the Master series does not output via ACSS to non Master series amps at the time either.


----------



## nigeljames

Any more impressions guys? Especially compared to the Phoenix.
   
  Although I am more interested in the Master-6 it would still be relevent.


----------



## tim3320070

Be certain you want that much power, the Master-6 might make using other headphones impossible with the high power output. I'm so glad I did not get it as the D7000 are rather loud at 12-15/99.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Be certain you want that much power, the Master-6 might make using other headphones impossible with the high power output. I'm so glad I did not get it as the D7000 are rather loud at 12-15/99.


 


  I will be using it for my HE-6 mainly but also the LCD-2's. My T1's should also be good with it as they are not balanced and the output is only(?) 600mw @600 ohms.


----------



## tim3320070

My DT770/600 (balanced) require about 30-35/99 for full volume listening if that helps.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> My DT770/600 (balanced) require about 30-35/99 for full volume listening if that helps.


 


  Yes thanks, it seems the T1's should do very well on the Master-6.
   
  One of the things I am looking for is flexibility and the Master-6 should provide it.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





northernwind said:


> Tim
> Please can you write few words about sound of C10SE? How it sounds compared to other amps you have heard? Why you purchase C10SE, not Master-3? They both in similar price range.


 


  The C10SE is typical AGD- no frequency emphasis, very revealing, very powerful, very refined, zero background noise. I had an Emotiva XPA-2 which seems to be pretty similar in design and spec's but it sounded brighter/ colder vs the C10SE, just less real. I think Kingwa's amps are excellent.


----------



## Soundinista

Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> Thanks for your initial impressions.
> 
> How does the Master 5 sound compared to other amps in the market? *Particularly, how does it compare to  the NFB10SE?* What are the differences in SQ between your Ref 8 + Master 5 and the NFB10SE?​


 
  bump (emphasis added)


----------



## tim3320070

Vs the NFB10SE, the Master-5 is more detailed, wider and deeper soundstage (sound goes beyond the sides towards the back of your head some), overall more refined, more delicate, more 3D. Nothing night and day but enough for me to warrant the purchase. That said, I could live with the NFB10SE and nothing else and be happy, it is excellent.


----------



## Soundinista

Thanks, Tim! That's exactly what I expected. I've had my NFB-10SE for ten days now (some 40 hours logged in, at most) and I'm *mightily* impressed with both, the DAC and the headamp. To my ears, the DAC is phenomenal. I haven't yet been able to compare it to the Grace m902, but I bet the 10SE is *audibly* better. The headamp is a total surprise: extremely powerful and totally silent (the blackest background I've ever experienced). It falls behind my Rudistor amps only -- especially the RPX300, 4-5 times more expensive -- only in the width/depth/3D of the soundstage.
   
  So, I can imagine how the Master-5 beats the smaller amp in soundstaging/3D -- and how the diminishing-returns effect bites hard too.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Vs the NFB10SE, the Master-5 is more detailed, wider and deeper soundstage (sound goes beyond the sides towards the back of your head some), overall more refined, more delicate, more 3D. Nothing night and day but enough for me to warrant the purchase. That said, I could live with the NFB10SE and nothing else and be happy, it is excellent.


 


  Are you able to breifly compare both the master 5 HeadPhone out & the 10ES Headphone out whilst using the same DAC ie 10ES dac??


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





customnuts said:


> Are you able to breifly compare both the master 5 HeadPhone out & the 10ES Headphone out whilst using the same DAC ie 10ES dac??


 

 Sorry, I changed my ACSS cable to work with my speaker amp. I would have to use the XLR connection which would not be an effective comparo. Ask Kingwa his opinion of these two head amps. Suffice to say the Master-5 is a better amp, 3X the money better, probably not realistically but I wanted TOTL sound.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





soundinista said:


> Thanks, Tim! That's exactly what I expected. I've had my NFB-10SE for ten days now (some 40 hours logged in, at most) and I'm *mightily* impressed with both, the DAC and the headamp. To my ears, the DAC is phenomenal. I haven't yet been able to compare it to the Grace m902, but I bet the 10SE is *audibly* better. The headamp is a total surprise: extremely powerful and totally silent (the blackest background I've ever experienced). It falls behind my Rudistor amps only -- especially the RPX300, 4-5 times more expensive -- only in the width/depth/3D of the soundstage.
> 
> So, I can imagine how the Master-5 beats the smaller amp in soundstaging/3D -- and how the diminishing-returns effect bites hard too.


 


  My Master-5 is part of a quality front end (Audiophilleo2, Ref-8). Just running the Master-5 from an ordinary source would not take full advantage of it IMO. If I didn't have this system, I would most likely be happy with the NFB10SE as my only setup.
  You are definitely right-on about diminishing-returns.


----------



## OneSec

I'm rather surprised Master-5 / Master-6 only have 1 thread going on this forum. I would expecting more.
   
  Tim,
  Have you ever plug multiple phones to the master5 and see if it powers all phones together?


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





onesec said:


> I'm rather surprised Master-5 / Master-6 only have 1 thread going on this forum.* I would expecting more.*
> 
> Tim,
> Have you ever plug multiple phones to the master5 and see if it powers all phones together?


 


  Yes I am of the same opinion myself. Given the interst the Phoenix got when it was released I would of expected more interest in these especially as they are supposed to be better than the Phoenix. I am interested in the Master-6 myself to partner with the NFB-7 but it won't happen until early next year. I will need to sell my Roc to finance it as well.


----------



## LarsHP

I ordered my Master-6 this Monday and expect receiving it in about three weeks. 
When I have had time to listen to it, I will make a review of it here on Head-Fi.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





onesec said:


> I'm rather surprised Master-5 / Master-6 only have 1 thread going on this forum. I would expecting more.
> 
> Tim,
> Have you ever plug multiple phones to the master5 and see if it powers all phones together?


 

  
  They work simultaneously, yes (balanced and SE). But I'm not sure the 3-pin and 4-pin inputs are both active (I don't have 3-pin plugs)- ask Kingwa.


----------



## OneSec

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> They work simultaneously, yes (balanced and SE). But I'm not sure the 3-pin and 4-pin inputs are both active (I don't have 3-pin plugs)- ask Kingwa.


 


  Thanks Tim. That's good enough for me.


----------



## tim3320070

@larshp
   
  I would like to hear impressions with the 6 and the HE-6 (balanced of course).


----------



## LarsHP

tim3320070 said:


> @larshp
> 
> I would like to hear impressions with the 6 and the HE-6 (balanced of course).




Me too ... 
I ordered the Master-6 because I want to run in balanced mode all the way. 
Hopefully it's going the be a very good balance in my ears and brain as well


----------



## OneSec

KongWa recommends me Master-6 when he knows I have HE-6. So I guess master-6 has best synergy among Audio-GD products. How good? I have no idea though.


----------



## tim3320070

It has tremendous output so it might be difficult to use with efficient headphones- keep that in mind. My master-5 is plenty loud at about 12/99 with my D7000 balanced. But remember that it's also a very high end preamp for speaker use (my main use).


----------



## macrog

The Master 6 is absolutely fine running my balanced AKG702s and balanced HD800s with  volume on up to 25 out of 99 and I note that on high impendance headphones the output is the same as the Master 5. I haven't had the opportunity to compare the Master 5 to the Master 6 yet though.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog


----------



## tim3320070

Thanks for that input- that's much higher than I would have thought possible.


----------



## macrog

Source is a Reference 7.1 and NFB8.1 running acss and balanced connections. As a comparison the Phoenix headphone amp appears to be about the same volume level on a volume setting of 30 as the Master 6 is on 25 (with the volume set to 99 steps on both). This is on both the balanced akg702s and balanced HD800s.
   
  I am suprised so few people have fedback their opinions on sound quality. I cant because I am an Audio-gd reseller in New Zealand.
   
  Hope this is helpful.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog


----------



## superjohny

Quote: 





macrog said:


> Source is a Reference 7.1 and NFB8.1 running acss and balanced connections. As a comparison the Phoenix headphone amp appears to be about the same volume level on a volume setting of 30 as the Master 6 is on 25 (with the volume set to 99 steps on both). This is on both the balanced akg702s and balanced HD800s.
> 
> I am suprised so few people have fedback their opinions on sound quality. I cant because I am an Audio-gd reseller in New Zealand.
> 
> ...


 

 I am really interested to know the sound quality as well, I will be paring this with ref8 and LA7000 and Lcd-2 rev1. Especially interested to  know how this will be compared to liquid fire and the leben.


----------



## OneSec

Are you able to give a direct comparison with phoenix? Since you are selling them all. Otherwise I would appreciate if you could PM your opinion to me.
  Quote: 





macrog said:


> Source is a Reference 7.1 and NFB8.1 running acss and balanced connections. As a comparison the Phoenix headphone amp appears to be about the same volume level on a volume setting of 30 as the Master 6 is on 25 (with the volume set to 99 steps on both). This is on both the balanced akg702s and balanced HD800s.
> 
> I am suprised so few people have fedback their opinions on sound quality. I cant because I am an Audio-gd reseller in New Zealand.
> 
> ...


----------



## macrog

I believe that a Phoenix or Master 5/6 would be overkill if you are running an Asus ST soundcard as source.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog


----------



## OneSec

Even my headphone is overkill. I'm upgrading in stages, but amp is the component I concentrate at the moment.
   
  Thanks for enlightening. I wish I have the money to upgrade all at once. End of day I will still use my PC as transport.
   
  Quote: 





macrog said:


> I believe that a Phoenix or Master 5/6 would be overkill if you are running an Asus ST soundcard as source.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Macrog


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





onesec said:


> Even my headphone is overkill. I'm upgrading in stages, but amp is the component I concentrate at the moment.
> 
> Thanks for enlightening. I wish I have the money to upgrade all at once. End of day I will still use my PC as transport.


 


  Are you using the ST as digital out to a DAC? Or are you using the 2 RCA to an amp?


----------



## OneSec

Current plan is still to use the DAC on ST, with 2 RCA out.
   
  DAC is evolving too fast with the 24 /32 bit currently. Eventually after it settles down with USB3 as matured interface, I might go for a long term DAC with USB3 interface. (DSP included).
   
  Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Are you using the ST as digital out to a DAC? Or are you using the 2 RCA to an amp?


----------



## Soundinista

Quote: 





onesec said:


> I'm rather surprised Master-5 / Master-6 only have 1 thread going on this forum. I would expecting more.


 
   So am I. The only thing standing between me and a Master 5 is a cruel, elusive pile of $$$!


----------



## metalgear

just wondering if there was no way to combine the master 5 and 6 offerings together as a single unit by way of switches to control impedence and output (with minimal/no degradation to sound quality)?


----------



## LarsHP

metalgear said:


> just wondering if there was no way to combine the master 5 and 6 offerings together as a single unit by way of switches to control impedence and output (with minimal/no degradation to sound quality)?



Why don't you ask Kingwa that question?
I would expect it to include two hp amp sections or at least partly two, but I am far from an expert on this.


----------



## tme110

With the ref series DACs gone, I wonder if there will be a master level one.  Though the larger AGD DACs do seem to be over the top already...


----------



## clam

a pre/head amp/dac would be nice, i'm all for low box counts


----------



## tim3320070

I asked about the NFB-9 having a headphone output, it's possible. That would be a pre-dac-amp. I doubt the head amp portion would be as good as the Master-5 though.


----------



## customNuts

Surely there are more opinions/reviews of the Master 5/6. I have bought the limited Ref 7.1 and would like to move on the master 5 soon after. 
  At the moment the amp I'm using is a littledot mk6.
  Anyone compared master 5/6 with littledot mk6??


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





customnuts said:


> Surely there are more opinions/reviews of the Master 5/6. I have bought the limited Ref 7.1 and would like to move on the master 5 soon after.
> At the moment the amp I'm using is a littledot mk6.
> Anyone compared master 5/6 with littledot mk6??


 


  Yes opinons are few and far between which surprises me given the attention the Pheonix received when it first came out.
  As is the norm on Head-fi one good review from an experienced member will change all that.
   
  I know of one person who has recently received the Master-6 and I have one ordered and it should be delivered Febuary.
  At least what opinions I have read have all been positive


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> Yes opinons are few and far between which surprises me given the attention the Pheonix received when it first came out.
> As is the norm on Head-fi one good review from an experienced member will change all that.
> 
> I know of one person who has recently received the Master-6 and I have one ordered and it should be delivered January.
> At least what opinions I have read have all been positive


 
  Sounds good, I am interested to how the master 6 compares to the RSA Darkstar as an ortho and hard to drive dynamic headphone amp..


----------



## Maxime Trepreau

Is the Master 6 exact same amp than the 5 with just more power ?
  When I read the Audio GD site it's not very clear. It makes me feel that the Master 6 is not as much class A as the 5.
   
  This part for example :
   
   

 *[size=x-small]Power Consumption[/size]*
  [size=x-small]45W [/size]*[size=x-small]class A[/size]*[size=x-small] @240V or 120V[/size]
 [size=x-small]45W idle @240V or 120V[/size]
   
  or that :
   
   

 *[size=x-small]Headphone amp Output Power 
 　[/size]* 
 [size=x-small]50 ohm:   1700MW
 100 ohm: 2400MW
 300 ohm: 1200MW
 600 ohm:   600MW[/size]
*[size=x-small](Balanced , Class A)[/size]*
 [size=x-small]　[/size] [size=x-small]40 ohm:   9000MW
 50 ohm:   7000MW
 100 ohm: 3500MW
 300 ohm: 1200MW
 600 ohm:   600MW[/size]
*[size=x-small](Balanced , For >20 ohm headphones)[/size]*
   
  Should I order the Master 6 for HD800 ?
   
  Thanks for your help guys.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> I know of one person who has recently received the Master-6 and I have one ordered and it should be delivered January.  At least what opinions I have read have all been positive


 

 Probably me you are referring to. I have had it for ten days and I can now say that I think the Master-6 drives the HE-6 with ease, finesse and power. I would add holographic imaging and stellar transparency. To me this is definitely high end performance.
   
  At first it had increased bass and treble, but now it has found itself - relaxing the extremes of the audio spectrum.
  After discovering this, I remembered that someone here on Head-Fi saying the same thing about how Audio-gd's products change with burn in the first days.
   
  I have a LC Audio Sidewinder pre amp and LC Audio ZAPsolute Mk 4 power amp set to compare it to.
  When attaching the HE-6 to the LC Audio power amp and using the Master-6 as pre amp the difference is subtle, but in favor of the Audio-gd.
  Master-6 hp out delivers more transparency and better imaging precision than Master-6 pre out to ZAPsolute (HE-6 attached to speaker tabs).
  The Master-6 as a pre amp is clearly better than the LC Audio Sidewinder pre amp.
  This is obvious when using hp out of the Master-6 versus the LC Audio amp combo (speaker tabs out), because then the difference more clearly there.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





maxime trepreau said:


> Is the Master 6 exact same amp than the 5 with just more power ?
> When I read the Audio GD site it's not very clear. It makes me feel that the Master 6 is not as much class A as the 5.
> 
> This part for example :
> ...


 
   
  Yes, you are right: the Master-5 and -6 are identical except for the last headphone amp step - as seen in the above power figures.
  Both amps run fully balanced and class A all the way, except the last headphone amp step in the Master-6. This is because of the extra power it is producing.
  To drive the Sennheiser HD800 - forget the Master-6 and go for the Master-5.
  The Master-6 is only for extremely low sensitivity headphones (read: HiFiMan HE-6 and the like).


----------



## Maxime Trepreau

Thx, I'll go for it.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





maxime trepreau said:


> Thx, I'll go for it.


 

 Good luck!
  It is truely a heavy headphone / pre amp. When I lifted it I couldn't believe how heavy it is.


----------



## DarknightDK

Keep those impressions coming! Looking forward to more impressions on the Master 5 & 6. It is on my shortlist as well.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





larshp said:


> Probably me you are referring to. I have had it for ten days and I can now say that I think the Master-6 drives the HE-6 with ease, finesse and power. I would add holographic imaging and stellar transparency. To me this is definitely high end performance.
> 
> At first it had increased bass and treble, but now it has found itself - relaxing the extremes of the audio spectrum.
> After discovering this, I remembered that someone here on Head-Fi saying the same thing about how Audio-gd's products change with burn in the first days.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the impressions LarsHP, I see you have the Ref 7.1 in your signature. Is that the source your were using??


----------



## LarsHP

customnuts said:


> Thanks for the impressions LarsHP, I see you have the Ref 7.1 in your signature. Is that the source your were using??



Yes, using the ACSS connection between the two Audio-gd boxes.


----------



## customNuts

Has anyone compared or heard both the master 5/6 & the DNA Sonet? 
  I Can't decide.


----------



## Maxime Trepreau

I just ordered a master 5.

20 days to go.


----------



## Larryonfire

Great to read some impressions on the Audio-gd Master-6 and kind of funny the attention is not that big on this Master amp . Does the Master 6 get as hot as the Phoenix, it sounded like you could cook an egg on top of it.


----------



## tim3320070

Both are warm and possibly hot but not ever that hot. You could not burn your hand. They are class A which run hot by nature. The Master-5 might be a little cooler from memory.


----------



## DarknightDK

Any more impressions of the Master 5 / 6?


----------



## LarsHP

darknightdk said:


> Any more impressions of the Master 5 / 6?



Hmm. I could add that the K-701 sounds less thin in the bass and the piercing treble is gone when plugged into the Master-6.


----------



## BournePerfect

Well an m-Stage can do that for the K701 as well lol. What amp are you coming from with the AKG?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## LarsHP

bourneperfect said:


> Well an m-Stage can do that for the K701 as well lol. What amp are you coming from with the AKG?
> 
> -Daniel




The M-Stage! I bought it because many people said it had a good synergy with the K-701. The M-Stage has warm and transparent mids that suits the K-701 well. However the bass was thin and the treble piercing sharp with that combo. When I use the same cd player and interconnects to the Master-6, the sharp treble is gone and there is a little more bass. 

I should add that I don't have the M-Stage anymore, but when I had it it was intolerable with my cdp and K-701, which is not the case with the Master-6 between the two. I am not saying that the K-701 sounds like a totally different headphone, but now it sounds noticeably better balanced via the Master-6. 

I think this is due to the same effect as when the HE-6 is underamped, even though the K-701 is much easier to drive of course. In other words I think that especially somewhat bright headphones in general will benefit from being driven by more-than-one-should-think powerful amps. In this case the M-Stage is about 440mW IIRC, and if the K-701 is driven by a - let's say - four times more powerful amp, then it is audible as in taming the treble and strengthening the bass. I would think that the Schiit Lyr would be a good combo for the K-701 because of this (and the price is in the league of the phone). I saw someone here on head-fi who has that combo recommending it for this very reason.


----------



## DarknightDK

Lars, how does the Ref 7.1 pair with the Master 6? This is a combo which i am seriously considering. Do you consider this paring to be the most resolving, natural and transparent which you have heard?
   
  Still waiting for someone to do a proper review of the Master 5 / 6.


----------



## lmswjm

I have the Master 6 and the Phoenix. I don't think there are any formal reviews because the buzz has already passed since the hey days of the Reference 1 and Phoenix. 

I needed another preamp to drive a separate speaker rig and an amp to power the HE6 to boot. Without directly comparing the two, I believe the Master 6 is a small step up from the Phoenix (which I love). I would also think the 7.1 is also an incremental upgrade on the RE1. 

I recently compared the headphone out on the Antelope Gold with Voltikus vs. The RE1 and Phoenix. Surprisingly the AudioGD combo didn't lose and I sent the Antelope back. It was a demo with a few hundred hours on it. 

So you can purchase from AudioGD with confidence even though they aren't blowing up the forums anymore. Head Fiers can be fickle. Just read through the massive RE1 and Phoenix threads.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> Lars, how does the Ref 7.1 pair with the Master 6? This is a combo which i am seriously considering. *Do you consider this paring to be the most resolving, natural and transparent which you have heard?*
> 
> Still waiting for someone to do a proper review of the Master 5 / 6.


 

 That's an easy one: YESSSS!


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> ... I believe the Master 6 is a small step up from the Phoenix ...


 

 That is my impression from what Kingwa wrote to me, when I asked about the differences between the two.


----------



## BournePerfect

What opamps were you using in the m-Stage. I used the OP627AP biased into Class A with great results! Great bass impact (really!), and smooth highs. I'm strongly considering the Master 5/6 to pair with a T1-and I just might pick up my old favorite (K702) to test on it. I also wish I could hear one on a Lyr sometime because they seem like a perfect match on paper (POWER, dynamics, tame highs) for the AKG.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## .Sup

Thanks for impressions!


----------



## LarsHP

bourneperfect said:


> What opamps were you using in the m-Stage. I used the OP627AP biased into Class A with great results! Great bass impact (really!), and smooth highs. I'm strongly considering the Master 5/6 to pair with a T1-and I just might pick up my old favorite (K702) to test on it. I also wish I could hear one on a Lyr sometime because they seem like a perfect match on paper (POWER, dynamics, tame highs) for the AKG.
> 
> -Daniel




I had the most expensive version of class A biased OPA627 from Tams Audio - ready modded.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





larshp said:


> That is my impression from what Kingwa wrote to me, when I asked about the differences between the two.


 


  Kingwa said the same to me stating that the Master-5/6 was more transparent and neutral than the Phoenix. However that was when I asked him about the differences with easy to drive headphones.
  I would expect with something like the HE-6's the differences would be significantly larger.


----------



## lmswjm

I've heard the HE6 on both, but not in a direct comparison. Generally speaking, if you had a volume issue with the Phoenix, the Master 6 fixes that. Other than that, it doesn't transform the HE6 into another animal. I was actually surprised on how well the Phoenix amplified the HE6 on some recordings.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> I've heard the HE6 on both, but not in a direct comparison. Generally speaking, if you had a volume issue with the Phoenix, the Master 6 fixes that. Other than that, it doesn't transform the HE6 into another animal. I was actually surprised on how well the Phoenix amplified the HE6 on some recordings.


 


  I have the Roc and don't have any volume issues especially fed via the 5.6volt output of the NFB-7.
  I feel the Roc does a very good job with the HE-6's but I hope the Master-6 is a clear step up.
  I will have 30 days to make up my mind on the Master-6 so I have nothing to lose.


----------



## tme110

I'm starting to think of the master 5 myself.  Personally, my preference for my main system is a tube amp and all of my main systems have been American made (note, I've had about 6 AGD products) so I still have to think about it.  My current system is already overkill for what I need but I now have several balanced sources but no amp to connect them to.  I'm not even talking about any SE/balanced debate, it's that I already have the gear.  Though I would likely sell almost everything I have, including all my AGD DAC's etc and just have the Master5 being fed by my oppo95.


----------



## lmswjm

nigeljames said:


> I have the Roc and don't have any volume issues especially fed via the 5.6volt output of the NFB-7.
> I feel the Roc does a very good job with the HE-6's but I hope the Master-6 is a clear step up.
> I will have 30 days to make up my mind on the Master-6 so I have nothing to lose.




Looking forward to your impressions....


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> Lars, how does the Ref 7.1 pair with the Master 6? This is a combo which i am seriously considering. Do you consider this paring to be the most resolving, natural and transparent which you have heard?
> 
> Still waiting for someone to do a proper review of the Master 5 / 6.


 

 This is the combo I've been after also. I recieved the ref 7.1 almost a month ago and am waiting on the master 5 to be delivered. Atm I'm using audiophilleo2 +ref 7.1 + littledot mk6+ which is really impressive. 
  I'll post impressions when my master 5 arrives. I will hopefully have the Auraliti PK90 by then as a front end too.


----------



## DarknightDK

Any more impressions of the Master 5/6 amplifier paired with the Ref 7.1? Keep em coming!


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> Any more impressions of the Master 5/6 amplifier paired with the Ref 7.1? Keep em coming!


 
  Just buy it. You won't hear it here on the net 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  If you plan using the Master-6 and Ref 7.1 with HE-6 I promise you that you won't be disappointed.


----------



## colour97

i will be member of master 5 family very soon.  talk to all of you after i receive the amp.


----------



## Maxime Trepreau

I'm waiting for mine too (and Lite DAC 83)


----------



## tme110

I'd be interested in seeing more pictures of the master in people's systems.


----------



## customNuts

I'll post some impressions when I get mine in 2 weeks. I had to wait over a month due to the Chinese holiday. 
  Also does anyone know if the master 5 will drive the he6 well on high gain??


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





customnuts said:


> I'll post some impressions when I get mine in 2 weeks. I had to wait over a month due to the Chinese holiday.
> Also does anyone know if the master 5 will drive the he6 well on high gain??


 

 I think the Master-6 is the one for HE-6. It delivers 7 Watts in 50 Ohms.
   
  If you already have the HE-6, then time will tell you, but if you haven't, I wouldn't recommend it with the Master-5, since it is "only" 1,7 Watts in 50 Ohms. The Master-6 is 7 Watts, so that's more than four times as much. I haven't seen anybody recommend lower wattage than 5 Watts for the HE-6 (HiFiMan EF6). Also be aware that 5 Watts in class A (the EF6 is running class A) will be able to deliver more current than a class A/B design - if I understand this correctly.
   
  On the other hand - if you use (or plan to use) Audeze LCD-2, LCD-3, HiFiMan HE-500 or a regular dynamic headphone, then the Master-5 will be the one to go for.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





customnuts said:


> I'll post some impressions when I get mine in 2 weeks. I had to wait over a month due to the Chinese holiday.
> Also does anyone know if the master 5 will drive the he6 well on high gain??


 


  Does the Master-5 have a selectable gain setting?
  If not how are you going to select high gain?


----------



## tim3320070

There is no gain adjustment on the Master-5


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> There is no gain adjustment on the Master-5


 


  Yes just as I thought.
   
  On another note, does anyone know if the Roc/Phoenix bias mod is possible on the Master-5/6?
  Probably have to ask Kingwa but thought I would ask here first.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> There is no gain adjustment on the Master-5


 


  Oh, ok - didn't know that. I don't own the He6 - if I did I would have ordered the master 6 for sure. With D7000, HD650's customs and maybe a LCD rev2 in the future, the master 5 is the way for me.
   
  Does anyone know how the little dot mk6+ compares to the master 5/6??


----------



## tim3320070

The D7000 with Master-5 is great to my ears.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> On another note, does anyone know if the Roc/Phoenix bias mod is possible on the Master-5/6?
> Probably have to ask Kingwa but thought I would ask here first.


 

 IMO the output voltage mod isn't really all that worthwhile - IME Kingwa knows what he is doing with the factory settings.  Any adjustments make the sound either mushy or shouty.


----------



## irvin59

Quote: 





customnuts said:


> Oh, ok - didn't know that. I don't own the He6 - if I did I would have ordered the master 6 for sure. With D7000, HD650's customs and maybe a LCD rev2 in the future, the master 5 is the way for me.
> 
> Does anyone know how the little dot mk6+ compares to the master 5/6??


 
  LD mk vi + compares well to the master 6. They have different flavours as you'd expect with tube vs ss, but with the tubes I have (mullard ecc 35's and sylvania 7236's) I wouldn't rate the sq of the 6 higher. Since I put in the 7236's, on high gain the LD is more powerful than the 6.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





irvin59 said:


> LD mk vi + compares well to the master 6. They have different flavours as you'd expect with tube vs ss, but with the tubes I have (mullard ecc 35's and sylvania 7236's) I wouldn't rate the sq of the 6 higher. Since I put in the 7236's, on high gain the LD is more powerful than the 6.


 


  Wow, the mk6+ really is stellar value. I was hoping however that the master 5 would be an improvement considering the price diff and the value of audo_gd. What DAC are using with it & what cans??


----------



## colour97

i still have a little time to choose either master 5 or 6.
   
  i don't have he6, but 7 watts is  very attractive.
   
  now i am using es10 and dt880 250 ohm, do you think it is too loud if i take master 6. 
   
  please give some comments.


----------



## irvin59

Quote: 





customnuts said:


> Wow, the mk6+ really is stellar value. I was hoping however that the master 5 would be an improvement considering the price diff and the value of audo_gd. What DAC are using with it & what cans??


 


  With the cost of the upgraded tubes the prices are much closer ( If I count all the tubes I have been through to reach this point, I have spent more on the LD). I have the ref 7.1 Dac. LCD-3, HE-6, D7000.
  The 6 is also a lot more versatile with lots more inputs and outputs and functions better as an SE amp than the LD, and is much more solidly built.


----------



## irvin59

Quote: 





colour97 said:


> i still have a little time to choose either master 5 or 6.
> 
> i don't have he6, but 7 watts is  very attractive.
> 
> ...


 
  I chose the 6 and I would do so again. It works very well with my D 2000's/ 7000's which are quite sensitive. Also with digital volume control I don't think there will be any problem with channel imbalance at low volume levels. As I understand it they are the same amp except that the 6 switches to AB when the extra power is required.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





colour97 said:


> i still have a little time to choose either master 5 or 6.
> 
> i don't have he6, but 7 watts is  very attractive.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Why is 7 Watts attractive?
  For those headphones you will have more than enough power with the 1,7 Watts that the Master-5 delivers, I expect.
   
  Are you going to use it as a pre-amp also?
  If so, then beware that the gain might be too much for your power amp when you want to listen at low levels. That's my only issue with the Master-6.
   
  If you don't plan getting a HiFiMan HE-6 (or similarly heavy to drive headphone), then I would advise you to get the Master-5 instead.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





colour97 said:


> i still have a little time to choose either master 5 or 6.
> 
> i don't have he6, but 7 watts is  very attractive.
> 
> ...


 

 The Master-5 is plenty of power for these headphones. I am at volume 8-10/99 with balanced D7000 most of the time. 15/99 is painful.


----------



## lmswjm

There isn't 3-4 times more power for the Master6 over the Phoenix as implied. I would describe the difference as significant only, not monumental. I was actually scared to plug the D7000's in based on the specs, but they didn't explode afterall. I've powered the HE6 and D7000 balanced on the Master6 just fine. If there is any chance that you might get a headphone that's hard to power in the future, get the 6. I know I'll be hearing more orthos in the future, so I'm covered.
   
  I agree with the point Lars made about the 6 as a preamp in a speaker rig though. Low level listening is a little challenging. Even when listening pretty loud, I've never gone past 12/70.


----------



## LarsHP

lmswjm said:


> There isn't 3-4 times more power for the Master6 over the Phoenix as implied. I would describe the difference as significant only, not monumental. I was actually scared to plug the D7000's in based on the specs, but they didn't explode afterall. I've powered the HE6 and D7000 balanced on the Master6 just fine. If there is any chance that you might get a headphone that's hard to power in the future, get the 6. I know I'll be hearing more orthos in the future, so I'm covered.
> 
> I agree with the point Lars made about the 6 as a preamp in a speaker rig though. Low level listening is a little challenging. Even when listening pretty loud, I've never gone past 12/70.




We agree that four times as much power isn't monumental. In dB's it's only 6dB, but that also means the Master-5 is more than enough for any headphone except one or two orthodynamics.


----------



## macrog

Master 5 sounds subtly better on easy to drive headphones.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog
   
  Quote: 





colour97 said:


> i still have a little time to choose either master 5 or 6.
> 
> i don't have he6, but 7 watts is  very attractive.
> 
> ...


----------



## Soundinista

[size=12pt]The hypnotic beauty of glowing tubes notwithstanding, the charms of wallet-depleting, Russian-themed, chatter-inducing, flavor-driven, gourmet tube-rolling notwithstanding, and in spite of the frowning of many of the subjectivist Head-Fi gurus, with whom I even happen to agree in most matters of principle, when I put a set of headphones on my head, I want my headphone amp to give me the largest, airiest, most three-dimensional soundstaging money can buy (when the spatial information is in the material, of course), plus all the bass extension and tonal correctness my phones will let me experience, with sound emerging from a gargantuan, pitch black background – all discernible flavor coming from the phones themselves. I accept no excuses for noise, flabby bass, or shallow/narrow soundstaging. That’s my ideology in a nutshell.[/size]
   
  [size=12pt]Ever since Tim started this thread, I have been unable to find anything else on the landscape that promises that kind of sonic experience more convincingly than the Master-5/6, with such a seductive set of convenience features on top of it. It dominated my imagination completely. I’m now about to find out if Audio-gd’s claims do, in fact, describe the best amp’ing I’ve been able to find. A Master-5 is coming my way.[/size]
   
  [size=12pt]Thank you, Tim, for the thread and the thoughtful advice in PM’s. Will keep you posted.[/size]
   
  [size=12pt]




[/size]


----------



## colour97

master 5 is out of stock , only 6 is available at this moment.
   
  so after 1 week, i will receive 6.


----------



## colour97

tomorrow i should receive my master 6.  now at ems sorting centre.
   
  feel like boxing day in Feb.


----------



## Neogeo333

please give your impression of the master-6 later on.  This is one in my short list to get amp.


----------



## dailydoseofdaly

Quote: 





colour97 said:


> tomorrow i should receive my master 6.  now at ems sorting centre.
> 
> feel like boxing day in Feb.


 


   
  I wish we had boxing day in the states, I could go for a master6 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Looking forward to your impressions
  ​


----------



## lmswjm

Cd7 + Ref7.1 + Master 6 = The best sound I have ever experienced. Kick ass details, dynamics and above all realism. Piano and percussion are amazing. This includes both speakers and headphones.


----------



## colour97

let's  post some open box photo.


----------



## DarknightDK

Very nice! Now tell us how it sounds


----------



## customNuts

Well my Master 5 finally arrived about a week ago. I ordered it just before the Chinese NY so I had a big wait. Anyway it is paired up with my almost new Ref 7.1 (1704UK) & they were both custom ordered, re-wired with OCC Nucleotide Copper.
  I have a Modded/re-cabled D7000 and also modded/re-cabled HD650 to use with it atm and I must say, this is the most amazing set-up I have had thus far. It is a very detailed, neutral, holographic experience. Super black background, deep tight bass and extended, precise treble.
  It doesn't have the smoothness I get from my little dot mk6+ however, nothing feels lacking and I'm never wanting for more. It is also VERY powerful with me never going over 8-12 with the D7000 and 14-16 with the HD650's. It is also HUGE - especially with the DAC.
  I have some ed 8's coming soon which should be interesting - especially since the system as a whole should have a lot of burn-in to go before it has completely opened up.  
   
  I can't recommend them both highly enough - & that goes for the Littledot mk6+ also which is not far behind the Master-5 albeit a slightly different experience.


----------



## colour97

Initial impression: 
   
  i had owned phoenix for 1 week and there is comparsion.
  outlook - both design are ugly. if you like art deco, high tech design, need to stay away from audio-gd.
  body weight : both are very very heavy.
  temp: for 4 hours burn in , master 6 has only a nearly cool hand feel , phoenix temp is like a heater .
  hard to bear in summer time without air-con.
   
  in this thread , what worried me at the beginning is it is too powerful to drive dt880(250 ohm) and es10. 
  but the fact is master 6 
  can drive  those can at 17/70 for 880, 08/90 for es10 , let my pair of ear on easy. 
   
  now i only have single end and this beast only had 200 hrs burn-in ( i pushed too hard to kingwa to deliever it
  to me for my annual leave entertainment, so kingwa asked me to keep burning in at home).
  so initial impression is not accurated. but comparing with phoenix 1 week burn in, 
  more neutral, more more black background, very transparent, and very detailed, and very pushing power. 
   
  yes, not smooth enough, i think after 300 - 500 hours, let's see how it will be. will give more 
  impression after few weeks time. 
   
  i am planning to get IBASSO DX100 as transport and analog line-out directly to 6. because this new toy 
  has es9018 dac.
  or keep waiting for cd7 
  please give some ideas.  thank you.


----------



## DarknightDK

Would love to hear more comparisons of the Ref 5 with your Little Dot MK VI once the Ref 5 has had its burn in. Audio Gd gear tend to need at least 500 hours of burn-in before the sound really stabilizes imo.


----------



## Jonlereux

I am also interested in the comparison between the reference 5 and Little dot MKVI. Also, what was your experience ordering from Audio Gd? I have been hesitant ordering from them due to the long leadtimes according to other posts here on headfi, but recently purchased a Lyr to keep me entertained if wait is the only negative


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> Would love to hear more comparisons of the Ref 5 with your Little Dot MK VI once the Ref 5 has had its burn in. Audio Gd gear tend to need at least 500 hours of burn-in before the sound really stabilizes imo.


 


   


  Quote: 





jonlereux said:


> I am also interested in the comparison between the reference 5 and Little dot MKVI. Also, what was your experience ordering from Audio Gd? I have been hesitant ordering from them due to the long leadtimes according to other posts here on headfi, but recently purchased a Lyr to keep me entertained if wait is the only negative


 

  
   
 Do you guys mean Master 5?? As a few people have asked me already, I'll post a quick comparison between my Master 5 (M5) and my Little dot Mk6+ (LD).
 First a bit of background on the setup:
 I used the Ref 7.1 (8xPCM1704U-K) as the source for both.
 The M5 used the Acss connection & the LD had my silver/cotton xlr IC's so I could use both amps at once and switch between them quickly. (When I switched between stock acss cables & my silver xlr's whilst using the M5/Ref7.1 combo, there was almost no difference between them.)
 Also the LD has some of the best tubes you can get in it. Tungsol 5998 power tubes and Sylvania Bad Boy's.
 Both using balanced modded D7000. (awesome synergy btw)
 LD is fully burnt in, M5 has about 150hrs, Ref 7.1 has about 300hrs. Also my M5 & Ref7.1 are re-cabled with DHC occ copper ($30 upgrade each)
  
 Ok... There is not a huge difference, but it's there. The LD as expected has a tube presentation. So it's smoother, a touch warmer. There is also a little less definition/smearing in the bass. The bass is also a bit bigger in the LD.
 The M5 is more holographic/3D more air, more extended at both ends, more bass detail and a tiny bit more detail overall. More neutral over all. Both have awesome deep tight bass). 
 The M5 is however more grainy/less smooth.
  
 Now with the M5 not being burned in completely yet, (neither is the ref7.1 but thats irrelevant for this comparison) so that should smooth out a touch. Also I have to say these differences are TINY and resulted from dissecting the sounds as much as I could over lengthy A B comparisons (just switching the headphone from one to the other) and the liquidity and tube warmth of the LD is great & probably preferable to some. So at the moment, if I had to put a figure on it, the LD is 95% at the level of the M5 performance. With custom ACCS cables and complete burn-in, The M5 should pull ahead a little more. 
  
 Also the M5 has WAY more functions with an awesome preamp and LOADS of inputs/outputs.
 The LD can't be used with a single ended DAC as it sounds terrible with out a balanced signal. So it depends on what you prefer, your needs and what u want to spend.
  
 The LD is by far the better value imo at about $700 cheaper or $400-$500 if you factor in excellent tubes. In saying that, both are awesome buys for the money. I'm trying to decide on which to sell - I guess it will be the LD as the M5 is slightly the better performer but I just can't bring my self too.
  
 Both are simply world class balanced amps IMHO.  I hope that helps.


----------



## Jonlereux

Thanks for the comparison customNuts. I wish more members gave A/B comparisons between amps to give a reference point of performance. I would like to use the Master 5 as a preamp and headphone amp.  My source will be an Oppo 95 Balanced out into the Master 5 balanced input.
  It is also interesting to see the value of the Little Dot as a headphone amp as well. I was interested in several tube amps; Woo audio, Decware, Rays Samuels Raptor, and never considered the Little Dot tube amps. 
  I may be interested if you sell it ....
  Again, thanks for the great comparison!!


----------



## Jonlereux

Quote: 





colour97 said:


> Initial impression:
> 
> i had owned phoenix for 1 week and there is comparsion.
> outlook - both design are ugly. if you like art deco, high tech design, need to stay away from audio-gd.
> ...


 
  I am using an Oppo BDP95 as a source and could not be happier. USB inputs allow the use of an external harddrive, flash drive or you can also stream via network. currently listening to 24/192K Flac files via thumb drive and performance is amazing. Plays SACD, DVD audio, and pretty much any format you can input.
   
  I purchased it after a disappointing audition of a Cambridge Audio Dac magic plus. I ended up sending the CA Dac magic back due to several issues and couldnt be happier I did.


----------



## DarknightDK

Thanks for your impressions customNuts. It was helpful. I'm actually quite surprised that the Little Dot Mk VI+ is almost as good at the Master 5 at this point. The MkVI+ is quite a steal at that price and represents great value. I suppose the gap may widen after another 300+ hours of burn-in with the Master 5, as with all Audio GD gear, they require a lot of burn-in before the sound really stabilizes.


----------



## zenpunk

Considering that the few people on this forum who had the chance to compare the LD MKV+ directly to the Woo Audio WA22, WA5 and BA in most case preferred the LD I am surprised the Audio GD performed that well. Of course the  headphones and the rest of the equipment used will  affect the final sound ( and that without taking into account people's different tastes)


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> Considering that the few people on this forum who had the chance to compare the LD MKV+ directly to the Woo Audio WA22, WA5 and BA in most case preferred the LD* I am surprised the Audio GD performed that well*. Of course the  headphones and the rest of the equipment used will  affect the final sound ( and that without taking into account people's different tastes)


 


  I don't know why you are surprised. The Phoenix is still regarded as one of the best SS amps you can get and the Master-5/6 is better than the Phoenix.
  I have the Master-6 for about 10 days now and it is superb with T1's, LCD-2's and the HE-6.


----------



## Jonlereux

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> Considering that the few people on this forum who had the chance to compare the LD MKV+ directly to the Woo Audio WA22, WA5 and BA in most case preferred the LD I am surprised the Audio GD performed that well. Of course the  headphones and the rest of the equipment used will  affect the final sound ( and that without taking into account people's different tastes)


 


 My inital thoughts were I would prefer a solid state amp as I shopped around. I had never considered a LD MK VI. what are your experiences with the LD compared to some of your SS amps for instance? I am using HD 650's but my thoughts are leaning towards Planars of some sort...


----------



## zenpunk

To be honest the HD650 (balanced) is the only headphone I didn't like through the LD MKVI+ but if going planar (I only owned HE-500 and HE-6) the LD is a great match. The problem with tube is you will likely spend quite a bit more on tube upgrade and it is not  very green/efficient. I only briefly listened to ref7 and Phoenix at meets and it sounded good but nothing special.
  I am not one of those who believe amps or DACs (if properly designed) make a massive difference, improvements are usually very subtle. I previously owned a Meier Concerto and was surprised by how much better the LD MKVI+ was.
  If looking for a excellent ss amp I would probably consider something like the Apex Arete rather than any of the Audio GD stuff.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





darknightdk said:


> Thanks for your impressions customNuts. It was helpful. I'm actually quite surprised that the Little Dot Mk VI+ is almost as good at the Master 5 at this point. The MkVI+ is quite a steal at that price and represents great value. I suppose the gap may widen after another 300+ hours of burn-in with the Master 5, as with all Audio GD gear, they require a lot of burn-in before the sound really stabilizes.


 
  Agree that this is a little surprising, but this is or course with upgraded tubes in the LD Mk6+ he says.


----------



## zenpunk

Those Tung-Sol 5998 have become extremely hard to find those days and two matched pairs will cost up to $500.


----------



## Jonlereux

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> To be honest the HD650 (balanced) is the only headphone I didn't like through the LD MKVI+ but if going planar (I only owned HE-500 and HE-6) the LD is a great match. The problem with tube is you will likely spend quite a bit more on tube upgrade and it is not  very green/efficient. I only briefly listened to ref7 and Phoenix at meets and it sounded good but nothing special.
> I am not one of those who believe amps or DACs (if properly designed) make a massive difference, improvements are usually very subtle. I previously owned a Meier Concerto and was surprised by how much better the LD MKVI+ was.
> If looking for a excellent ss amp I would probably consider something like the Apex Arete rather than any of the Audio GD stuff.


 
  Thanks for the response.I am looking at the HE5LE headphones for my next pair and have heard they are hard to drive. I initially thought about purchasing a Darkvoice 337 instead of the Lyr ,but my thoughts were that the Lyr would drive the HE5Le's better. The Master 5 and 6 looked like a good match for them as well however comparisons with the higher end Audio Gd products are hard to come by. I prefer to see comparisons between two amps because of the subtle differences between two amps can be very small. Its interesting to hear that the LD easily outperforms the Meier.


----------



## zenpunk

I always tried to avoid tubes amps but after listening the a Darkvoice 337SE I was hooked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Many people seem happy with Lyr +HE-6 so you should have no problem with it but I doubt it will be as transparent and resolving as the Master5/6 or LD MKV+. I don't believe balanced amp are inherently superior to SE but the LD seem to offer the best SQ for the money and happened to be balanced. It drives the HE-6 easily on high gain so should sound great with the HE5-LE. I am sure the Master 6 will also sound great and you avoid the risk of tube upgraditis


----------



## Jonlereux

Thanks for your input Zenpunk.
   
  It is difficult to choose an amp without auditioning it and feedback from comparisons is all I can go by. Hopefully I can pick an amp that matches my  listening and musical preferences.I am looking for an amp that is dynamic but also has that "blackness" during quiet passages. I am also looking for an amp that sounds clear and uncompressed,  Unfortunately it also has to do with the rest of the pieces of the puzzle; phones, Dac, tube selection, recording... I have been biased towards SS and the Audio Gd Phoenix and Master 5/6 series have been on my shortlist, but the more I hear about some tube amps the more I would like to listen to them.  Thanks to all on this thread for the input and hopefully I can return the favor in the future.


----------



## tim3320070

The real test will be with a speaker rig IMO. The air and 3D effect of my speaker rig makes the Master-5's qualities more apparent. I use the D7000 as well and while it sounds wonderful with the Master-5, my speaker rig has that much more realism and awe effect. My guess is that the added power filtering and supply of the Master-5 would be most evident in a quality speaker rig. With that, my speakers are not considered bright (like Thiel for instance), and as such, the neutrality (or lack of color) of the Master-5 is welcome.


----------



## Jonlereux

Tim,
   
  That would be something for me to consider. Thus far my speaker rig doubles as my Home theater setup and I dont have a dedicated stereo setup
   
  It seems like you have or have had several Audio Gd products
   
  What is your experience with purchasing from Audio Gd? Lead time? customer service if you have problems? They seem to offer excellent value products... As mentioned before, Phoenix was a product that I was interested in and from what I have heard the Master series outperforms it in every way.
   
  Thus far the unknown of the ordering process has kept me from pulling the trigger on some of the items they have to offer.


----------



## cacatalysis

Skylab put up a ranking of 22 solid amps a couple of years ago, and phoenix is on top of the list.  I bought one from audio-gd a while ago.  I have never had any problem with it, still have it.  It is excellent for HD650, HD800 and HE5, but only marginal for HE6.  I moved to a WA22 last year, and found myself prefer it for my HD800.  For HD650, however, it is a toss up between phoenix and WA22.  I have never heard a master 5 or 6, but I have confidence in audio-gd products based on my experience with phoenix.  I also find phoenix to be an excellent pre-amp (later I found that the designer of the phoenix commented that phoenix is better as a pre-amp). 
   
  By the way I have a brand new HE 5LE just received from head-direct as an replacement of my HE5, which cracked several weeks ago.  I am planning to sell the HE 5LE, because I have an HE6 now.  If anybody is intrested in a HE 5LE, please PM me.  Little dot VI+ seems to be an interesting amp, but whether it has enough power to drive HE6 is uncertain based on mixed impressions from different users.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





jonlereux said:


> I am also interested in the comparison between the reference 5 and Little dot MKVI. Also, what was your experience ordering from Audio Gd? I have been hesitant ordering from them due to the long lead times according to other posts here on headfi, but recently purchased a Lyr to keep me entertained if wait is the only negative


 


  Audio-gd have been surprisingly good to deal with. Emails get answered quickly by Sai or Kingwa himself, never had a problem with a product. For example I forgot to ask for the OCC wire in my Master 5 and I emailed them the day they were shipping it out and asked if it was too late. They said no problem, re-wired it and re burned it in for the same $30 cost.
  I first bought a NFB-10SE (now that is an insane unit for the $500 promo)
  then bought the ref 7.1, then M5 all with in 3 months, so yes I was impressed by the service and of course their products. One small thing, the units all were a touch dirty when unwrapped. A bit disappointing, they couldn't wipe it first but no bother, just wiped it off my self.
  
  Quote: 





jonlereux said:


> Thanks for the comparison customNuts. I wish more members gave A/B comparisons between amps to give a reference point of performance. I would like to use the Master 5 as a preamp and headphone amp.  My source will be an Oppo 95 Balanced out into the Master 5 balanced input.
> It is also interesting to see the value of the Little Dot as a headphone amp as well. I was interested in several tube amps; Woo audio, Decware, Rays Samuels Raptor, and never considered the Little Dot tube amps.
> I may be interested if you sell it ....
> Again, thanks for the great comparison!!


 

 Your welcome Jonlerux. I understand it is hard when you can't audition something first. It makes it a very expensive hobby! 
  For example, I wanted to try out a balanced DNA sonet which has a fabulous reputation, so I though I'd 'upgrade' from the LD mk6+. So a bought a near new one with $200 upgraded tubes. Tried it out and there was just no comparison. The LD outclassed it in every way. I really wanted the Sonet to win but it was clear on the first listen. The LD's image was far more coherent, compose, 3D and stable. It had a blacker background, tighter deeper bass, better decay and more detail. Basically a overall sense of clarity, fidelity and authority. As a result I packed it up and put it up for sale all within a week. Normally I wouldn't sell an amp so quickly without spending a good amount of time with it but there was no point - it wasn't going to improve the amount it needed to stay. That was an expensive test.
   Don't get me wrong, the Sonet was a beautiful amp and it's reputation is deserved, however the LD is a couple of clear steps above it. 
   
  I'm sure you will be very happy with the Oppo 95/Master 5 combo. If you need a good preamp, I would go with the Master5/6. In that department it is clearly better than the LD (& u get a remote!). Also the M5 sounds good with a single ended input whereas the LD is not impressive with RCA at all. It is a balanced Headphone amp - that's where it's strengths lie for sure. The M5 has far more versatility. As I said before, depends what your needs are.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





cacatalysis said:


> Skylab put up a ranking of 22 solid amps a couple of years ago, and phoenix is on top of the list.  I bought one from audio-gd a while ago.  I have never had any problem with it, still have it.  It is excellent for HD650, HD800 and HE5, but only marginal for HE6.  I moved to a WA22 last year, and found myself prefer it for my HD800.  For HD650, however, it is a toss up between phoenix and WA22.  I have never heard a master 5 or 6, but I have confidence in audio-gd products based on my experience with phoenix.  I also find phoenix to be an excellent pre-amp (later I found that the designer of the phoenix commented that phoenix is better as a pre-amp).
> 
> By the way I have a brand new HE 5LE just received from head-direct as an replacement of my HE5, which cracked several weeks ago.  I am planning to sell the HE 5LE, because I have an HE6 now.  If anybody is intrested in a HE 5LE, please PM me.  Little dot VI+ seems to be an interesting amp, but whether it has enough power to drive HE6 is uncertain based on mixed impressions from different users.


 


  The LD actually has a gain switch and on high it is definitely powerful enough for the HE6, I have read several impressions. I don't know the exact power but it apparently has as much if not more power than the Master 6 on high gain. Power is one thing it has a lot of. Conversely on low gain, it handles my sensitive JH16's with no hiss - balanced.
  If anyone needs the exact figures, you could find out with a quick email to LD & AGD. Unless someone has them??


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> Those Tung-Sol 5998 have become extremely hard to find those days and two matched pairs will cost up to $500.


 


  They are expensive and rare but they can be found for less than that in like new condition as I did. I paid $300 for my 4x 5998's.
  But yes you can pay up to and above $500 for 4.


----------



## Neogeo333

My wallet saw this thread and is hiding somewhere.  Good quick review on the two amps CNuts.  Have you tried other dac with both of them?  Which one you think is more easier with lesser recordings?  Let say you have a wide range of phones from high to low inpedance and low to high sensitive phones, which amp would be better overall?


----------



## maguire

Hi guys, one day I planning on getting Pre- Mono Master2 power amps, Which would be better? C1 Master or 5? . I know the Master 5 is balanced HP amp also and I would not mind using with my custom Miracle, but will there be any noticible differences in quality going with speaker rig?


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> My wallet saw this thread and is hiding somewhere.  Good quick review on the two amps CNuts.  Have you tried other dac with both of them?  Which one you think is more easier with lesser recordings?  Let say you have a wide range of phones from high to low inpedance and low to high sensitive phones, which amp would be better overall?


 


  Sure, happy to help. Being in Aussie land it sucks having to buy something just to hear it so I'm more than happy to answer any questions while I have them both side by side. 
  I briefly had my Antelope Zodiac+ & Ref 7.1 together and tested both before it was sold. The Ref 7.1 replaced it - It was far superior. The zodiac+ had amazing digital/clocking section and more features, however it fell short big time (in comparison) in the power supply and analogue sections. The Ref 7.1 is right up there in that regard.
  The differences between the M5 & LD where still fundamentally the same, but with a less black background and less authority/weight. (There were more smaller differences but it's all of memory now.) The Zodiac+ btw is supposed to improve alot with a good psu.
   
  As far as using a wide range of headphones, I would have to say the LD would be slightly more versatile due to the gain switch. I have used HD650, D2000, D7000, JH16, HD800 & it handled them all great. Ortho's wouldn't be a prob on high gain. 
  The M5 has no gain switch and does all those cans no probs also. You would need the M6 for hard to drive orthos though. A M6 owner could answer if it drives sensitive customs without hiss, if it does then I would probable get the M6 over the M5.
   
  Both amps are high fidelity and are very transparent, but if you were to feed them compressed MP3's the LD would be a little less ruthless. I have plenty of 320kps mp3's that get a listen on both amps no probs, but lossless is that much better.
   
  Also I had the Yulong D100 (Awesome DAC for the money) but only with the LD. It sounded quite similar to the Zodiac+. LD mk6+ & D100 is a killer system for the money.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





maguire said:


> Hi guys, one day I planning on getting Pre- Mono Master2 power amps, Which would be better? C1 Master or 5? . I know the Master 5 is balanced HP amp also and I would not mind using with my custom Miracle, but will there be any noticible differences in quality going with speaker rig?


 


  I think King-wa would be the best to answer that as I would be surprised if anyone had both the Master pre-amp & Master 5 as they are both pre/amps. Logic would tell me that if you wanted the best pre-amp performance then get the pure pre-amp, but if you ever wanted to use headphones, get the M5.
  When u email Audio-gd, just put in the subject "For King-wa".


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *customNuts* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> A M6 owner could answer if it drives sensitive customs without hiss, if it does then I would probable get the M6 over the M5.


 

 Kingwa says on the Master-5/-6 page, that the Master-6 can't handle headphone loads lower than 20 Ohms.
  If there is interest, I can try with my SM3 since it is very sensitive, but to me this has never been an issue, so I have never even thought of trying with iem's.


----------



## colour97

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> Those Tung-Sol 5998 have become extremely hard to find those days and two matched pairs will cost up to $500.


 

 so why i don't consider tube amp, hardware maybe not so expensive, but after you add up some good tubes , your cost will
  be increased instantly, then why not make it simple, get a ss amp.


----------



## Jonlereux

Sounds like an email to Audio gd is in order. They have quite a few product that I have been intersted in, the Master 5/6 just being one of them. As for wallets, I think my wife hid mine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Thanks for all of the feedback customNuts, 
  This newbie appreciates all of the advice he can get!!


----------



## maguire

Yes please try it Lars


----------



## colour97

when i talked with kingwa: ( we are speaking the same language), he said
   re master 5/6 : head amp is bonus.  what we paid for is the pre-amp.
  master 6 can drive any easy or hard to drive can. but in fact my es10 i set 8-10/70 is ok to listen.
   
  after around 200 hrs burn-in,  my impresson is  you will easily find out which album is good recording, no bargain. 
   
  and more details i can get in which  previously cantate 2 can't provide.
   
  when i listened to RUSH-MOVING PICTURE , didnt feel noisy, I set DT880 to 30/70, 
  Now,  high-mid-bass is very neutral and harmony, i won't feel any part is too much. and of course
  the horsepower is so strong. 
   
  forget to tell you, dt880 is single end only, later on, will mod it to balance. and change another power cord instead of fty power cord.


----------



## colour97

Quote: 





jonlereux said:


> I am using an Oppo BDP95 as a source and could not be happier. USB inputs allow the use of an external harddrive, flash drive or you can also stream via network. currently listening to 24/192K Flac files via thumb drive and performance is amazing. Plays SACD, DVD audio, and pretty much any format you can input.
> 
> I purchased it after a disappointing audition of a Cambridge Audio Dac magic plus. I ended up sending the CA Dac magic back due to several issues and couldnt be happier I did.


 

 can you give more impression if :
  balance output to amp directly, and
   
  use it as a transport - digital out  to dac to amp. 
   
  what interested me for this oppo is its
   
   
  ES9018 SABRE 32-bit Reference DAC
  & Toroidal Transforme, 
   
  and thinking about how would it sound if balance out to master 6.
   
  i cant get CD7SE , and looking for  any good choice other than CD7SE,


----------



## Jonlereux

Colour97, I am using the RCA's out directly to my Schiit Lyr amp. The Schiit amp is not balanced. I plan on getting a balanced amp, like the Master 5 and using the balanced outs, however I have spent lots of $ lately and cannot afford it right now
   
  The reason I ended up with the Oppo 95 is that I had purchased a Cambridge Dac Plus and was disappointed in the performance.
  I had issues with high resolution files, Signal out via Rca's and problems playing different file formats.
   
  The Oppo is an amazing unit; sounds much better than the Cambridge Dac plus using all formats. It will play Super audio CD, and will also play high resolution Flac 24/192 files directly from a USB thumb drive. I am using a portable hard drive connected directly to the USB port and am able to navigate the folders via monitor.
   
  It is also a phenomenal blu ray and 3d blu ray player  which is an added plus for me, but it may not be important to you.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





maguire said:


> Yes please try it Lars


 


   
  I had to cut my 1/8" to 1/4" adapter to be able to plug the SM3 into it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Well, this cut might compromise the connections and make a partial short or whatever - or it may not. I don't think so, but here is what I hear and don't hear:
  Anyway I can hear NO hiss, but a clearly audible hum is present (from a trafo somewhere) when music is not playing.
  At level 1 on the volume, sound is in fact very low. Gain is therefore strangely enough not a problem and there is no channel imbalance (listened just shortly).
   

 Edit: the SM3 has a sensitivity of 122dB/mW and is 34 Ohm.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





jonlereux said:


> Tim,
> 
> That would be something for me to consider. Thus far my speaker rig doubles as my Home theater setup and I dont have a dedicated stereo setup
> 
> ...


 
  They are very good, honest sellers. If they have to build it, it will take at least a month so be patient. If you ever have a problem or questions other than wanting a quote, contact Kingwa directly. His english is okay but not great so you have to ask questions in a simple, short format.


----------



## maguire

Thank you Lars, custom nuts, Tim, colour etc. You all have been very helpful. I will have to get in touch with man himself as directed for additional info. In simple short format... yep. got it...


----------



## Jonlereux

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> They are very good, honest sellers. If they have to build it, it will take at least a month so be patient. If you ever have a problem or questions other than wanting a quote, contact Kingwa directly. His english is okay but not great so you have to ask questions in a simple, short format.


 
  Tim, It sounds  like you have been very pleased with Audio Gd and the services they have provided. Thanks for the feedback. I am awaiting the arrival of some HE5LEs and the Master 6 would be a perfect fit for them. I will be driving them with a Schiit Lyr until I can pull the trigger on something balanced. I would love to hear the Master Series though. Can I ask what headphones do you primarily use with the Master 5?


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





customnuts said:


> I briefly had my Antelope Zodiac+ & Ref 7.1 together and tested both before it was sold. The Ref 7.1 replaced it - It was far superior. The zodiac+ had amazing digital/clocking section and more features, however it fell short big time (in comparison) in the power supply and analogue sections. The Ref 7.1 is right up there in that regard.


 
  I've posted this before: I tested the Zodiac Gold with Voltikus PSU headphone out against the Ref1/ Phoenix combo. From the hype, I was expecting the Zodiac to be my next DAC, but to my surprise the ZG did not out-perform the Audio-Gd units.
   
  I have purchased the CD7, Ref1(V5), Phoenix, Ref 7.1 and Master 6 direct from Kingwa for my 2 current set-ups. I have always received excellent customer service and have to say that all of these components are excellent products that have eliminated any need for upgrade in the forseeable future.


----------



## maguire

I got in touch with Kingwa, re his best  pre-amp, & also if master5 can be used with custom IEM's.
   
  His response was that his best Pre amp was Master-1.
  Re- Master5 as he has not tried this before  would probably be ok with customs,but they might be too sensative .
   
  So just as Custom nuts & Lars have suggested.


----------



## colour97

some impressions:
   
  recently i am using audio technica AD700 to listen for 1 week. ( i bought this used one  2 years ago about usd 75.00)
   
  it is open can and  53mm driver and its soundstage is pretty wide but very thin treble and bass. what attract me most is its soundstage.
   
  or may say no bass at all. 
   
  then listen for 1 week, and volume is around 12/70 , its sound change to be thicker , more richer  all the way,
   
  because of the upside of the wide soundstage , make the whole listening to be more 3 D image. 
   
  this master 6 really brings back ad700 to a new life,  to another high level music .  ( i guess on the past, ad700 driver was
  not well warmed up)


----------



## nigeljames

Not ready for a review or anything like that yet but after having the Master-6 for 2 weeks now I have been able to put around 60 hours of power up of which about 25 hours with a signal through it and it already sounds so good that I am no longer concerned with any burn in.
   
  With the HE-6's its very neutral with no emphasis on any part of the frequency range. Excellent dynamics,speed,clarity and detail. Stunning bass depth and control. Plenty of power, normally 30-35/70.
   
  With LCD-2 r2 (new less than a week old) Extremely full bodied and powerful sound. Bass goes through the floor with excellent control and presence. Excellent low level detail and imaging. Great layered soundstage depth and natural width. No darkness at all, hf's extend way up and don't seem recessed and are very smooth. Volume at 18-25/70
   
  Unbalanced with Beyer T1's. I have never heard the Beyers with more bass depth and power. Similar sound to the HE-6's in many ways. Excellent dynamics, clarity and detail again. Probably the best I have ever heard the T1's.
  Volume at 28-35/70 (unbalanced)
   
  So far highly impressed.


----------



## lmswjm

That's encouraging, I'm even more excited now about my incoming LCD3's next week........


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> That's encouraging, I'm even more excited now about my incoming LCD3's next week........


 


  lmswjm have you received your LCD-3's yet? They are probably my next headphone purchase.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> lmswjm have you received your LCD-3's yet? They are probably my next headphone purchase.


 

 As expected, The Phoenix and Master 6 power these phones effortlessly. The LCD3's have unsurpassed bass response. The best I have heard for quality, quantity, speed and detail. Definitely reference. They sound to me just like the FR graph shows, solid bass and mids with highs that are just on the south side of neutral with full details etc. I thought these would be perfect for me, because I am a bass head at heart. However, I'd like a little more out of the highs to match the rest of the frequencies. To me it's a little too much bass tilted.
   
  What was worse was the pressure on my ear canals. The ear pads created the greatest air-tight seal around my ears I've have ever experienced. I would actually put the phones on, and have to stick my fingers underneath the pads to break the seal. Even then there was still positive pressure on the ear canals. This coupled with the heavy weight of the phones made me too uncomfortable to listen to for long periods. I had read that one head-fier experienced a bout of tinnitus after repeated, long listening sessions and I definitely could see that. However another head-fier acknowledged the pressure, but for him it was more akin to custom IEM's. I can't stand those either though.
   
  To summarize I'd say that the sound wasn't worth enduring the lack of comfort associated with them. They are beautiful phones though.
   
  It is possible that they could be the holy grail for some, but I would recommend that they be auditioned in a non-commitment type environment first, especially considering the expense.
   
  One more point to add is that from what I have read, they have significant variability in production. It is possible that not all LCD3's create this ear pressure.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> As expected, The Phoenix and Master 6 power these phones effortlessly. The LCD3's have unsurpassed bass response. The best I have heard for quality, quantity, speed and detail. Definitely reference. They sound to me just like the FR graph shows, solid bass and mids with highs that are just on the south side of neutral with full details etc. I thought these would be perfect for me, because I am a bass head at heart. However, I'd like a little more out of the highs to match the rest of the frequencies. To me it's a little too much bass tilted.
> 
> What was worse was the pressure on my ear canals. The ear pads created the greatest air-tight seal around my ears I've have ever experienced. I would actually put the phones on, and have to stick my fingers underneath the pads to break the seal. Even then there was still positive pressure on the ear canals. This coupled with the heavy weight of the phones made me too uncomfortable to listen to for long periods. I had read that one head-fier experienced a bout of tinnitus after repeated, long listening sessions and I definitely could see that. However another head-fier acknowledged the pressure, but for him it was more akin to custom IEM's. I can't stand those either though.
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry to hear about the comfort issues you are having must be very frustrating to have issues like that at the price.
  I notice the air pressure myself with my LCD-2 r2 but its very mild and only in the right ear. I have found that if I put them on very slowly though I don't notice it.
   
  Disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that the LCD-3's are darker than the LCD-2 r2's. With my Master-6 there is absolutely no darkness at all although I do use a silver TWAG-2 cable which may be having an effect on the brightness.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> As expected, The Phoenix and Master 6 power these phones effortlessly. The LCD3's have unsurpassed bass response. The best I have heard for quality, quantity, speed and detail. Definitely reference. They sound to me just like the FR graph shows, solid bass and mids with highs that are just on the south side of neutral with full details etc. I thought these would be perfect for me, because I am a bass head at heart. However, I'd like a little more out of the highs to match the rest of the frequencies. To me it's a little too much bass tilted.
> 
> What was worse was the pressure on my ear canals. The ear pads created the greatest air-tight seal around my ears I've have ever experienced. I would actually put the phones on, and have to stick my fingers underneath the pads to break the seal. Even then there was still positive pressure on the ear canals. This coupled with the heavy weight of the phones made me too uncomfortable to listen to for long periods. I had read that one head-fier experienced a bout of tinnitus after repeated, long listening sessions and I definitely could see that. However another head-fier acknowledged the pressure, but for him it was more akin to custom IEM's. I can't stand those either though.
> 
> ...


 

 I have heard people use "vegan' pads ie not leather but velour to great effects. It certainly would not seal as well and would bring up the treble & open the presentation somewhat. "Drez" could tell you more as he was the one who spoke to me about 'vegan' pads.
  Also I have used alot of TWag  (but not with lcd2/3) and it has always opened up the treble a small but noticeable amount from my experience.


----------



## colour97

i will triggle at LITE DAC-83 . but i cannot get any reference 7 or 7.1 to compare with. 
   
  and there are only only  few impressions posted.
   
  hope anyone can give me some advices
   
  thank you.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





colour97 said:


> i will triggle at LITE DAC-83 . but i cannot get any reference 7 or 7.1 to compare with.
> 
> and there are only only  few impressions posted.
> 
> ...


 


  I have not heard the lite-83 but the design should be at least a strong indicator. 4 x1704 vs 8 x 1704. hence the lite 83 is more comparable to the Reference 5 as opposed to Ref 7.1. You might have more luck comparing those 2 instead.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





colour97 said:


> i will triggle at LITE DAC-83 . but i cannot get any reference 7 or 7.1 to compare with.
> 
> and there are only only  few impressions posted.
> 
> ...


 
  I don't know what "triggle" means, so I might be off target / topic / misunderstand what you are asking about. Anyway, here it is:
  John Darko at Digital Audio Review has made reviews of both the DAC-83 and the Ref 7.1. I am not sure if there is a big difference between to two DACs, but he ended up returning the Lite and later reviewed and bought the Audio-gd.


----------



## colour97

i will trigger lite 83. May buy it tomorrow. 
   
  when reference 7.1 price is 1900 usd and 83 price is usd 1000............very tempting 
   
  will come back to you impression if i make this purchase.
   
  thank you.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





colour97 said:


> i will trigger lite 83. May buy it tomorrow.
> 
> when reference 7.1 price is 1900 usd and 83 price is usd 1000............very tempting
> 
> ...


 

 Good luck!
  The difference might be in bass level as far as I understand, where the Audio-gd probably has more bass weight than the Lite.


----------



## colour97

Got lite dac 83.


----------



## tim3320070

I updated the thread title to include the new Master-8: http://audio-gd.com/Master/Master8/Master-8EN.htm


----------



## steve2151

I'm guessing this means Master 5/6 are discontinued? Being able to toggle output power for an extra $30 is quite a big upgrade.


----------



## LarsHP

steve2151 said:


> I'm guessing this means Master 5/6 are discontinued? Being able to toggle output power for an extra $30 is quite a big upgrade.



You are probably right. If I was about to buy one today, I wouldn't hesitate getting the 8 instead of the 6.


----------



## drez

*EDIT:* Refer to my later post.


----------



## nigeljames

I would like to know at what point the Master-6 switches to class A/B. I listen to the HE-6's at about volume 30-35 so less than half the max volume level so I actually doubt that the Master-6 would need to switch at that level.
  Even if it does I certainly don't notice it.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> I would like to know at what point the Master-6 switches to class A/B. I listen to the HE-6's at about volume 30-35 so less than half the max volume level so I actually doubt that the Master-6 would need to switch at that level.
> Even if it does I certainly don't notice it.


 
   
  I should probably quote message from Kingwa "The Master 6 if high current output stage, its configuration made it without switch distortion so it should be a class A amp."
   
So as far as switching distortion definition of class A is concerned it is fully class A.  This is the present definition of class A.
   
As far as the older definition of class A (this older definition refers to the amount of current available at the ouput stage), [the Master 6 is] class A output is 400MW at 100 ohm and Class AB is 3500MW at 100 ohm.  For any sensible listening level, even with the HE-6, the Master 6 will still be class A even by the old definition.
   
AFAK class- A aspects have not changed between Master 6 and Master 8.
   
*EDIT:* I have hopefully clarified this post.


----------



## drez

I have edited my previous posts so hopefully they will not create any confusion.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





drez said:


> I should probably quote message from Kingwa "The Master 6 if high current output stage, its configuration made it without switch distortion so it should be a class A amp."
> 
> So as far as switching distortion definition of class A is concerned it is fully class A.  This is the present definition of class A.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes thanks for the info it does clarify things.
  Its good to know that the Master-6 is,for all intents and purposes, fully class A.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





drez said:


> I should probably quote message from Kingwa "The Master 6 if high current output stage, its configuration made it without switch distortion so it should be a class A amp."
> 
> So as far as switching distortion definition of class A is concerned it is fully class A.  This is the present definition of class A.
> 
> ...


 
  It would have been nice to know what the output level is in the old definition in 50 Ohms. It should theoretically be double as much (800mW), but usually it's not. The Master-6 is in fact spec'ed to double the output from 100 to 50 Ohms: 3,5W to 7W (in class AB).
   
  The Master-5 is spec'ed at 2400mW class A in 100 Ohms, so things are looking a little odd here ... The Master-6 ought to have more power than the 5 - even in class A - or what?
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-5/Master-5EN.htm
  (scroll down to the bottom of the page to see spec's.)
   
  Anyway - if it sounds wonderful - who cares? Hmmm ... the fools like me do.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





larshp said:


> It would have been nice to know what the output level is in the old definition in 50 Ohms. It should theoretically be double as much (800mW), but usually it's not. The Master-6 is in fact spec'ed to double the output from 100 to 50 Ohms: 3,5W to 7W (in class AB).
> 
> The Master-5 is spec'ed at 2400mW class A in 100 Ohms, so things are looking a little odd here ... The Master-6 ought to have more power than the 5 - even in class A - or what?
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think the old definition of class A has to do with idle current, no real idea how that works out in terms of 100/50 ohms.  Either way I think 1600mW into 50 Ohms will be pretty loud with the HE-6.  I no longer have the EF-6 or any other high-output amplifier for comparison as to whether there is any clipping type distortion, but honestyl it's pretty impossible to tell. You would need another class A (by old definition to do with idle current) ampilifier with very low distortion to compare, and even then how do you tell if one or the other is transparent or coloured.  Given the absence of any real reference point it is impossible to say whether M6 is bright or just neutral and transparent.  
   
  IMO though the fact that only some recordings are bright (regardless of level) tends to suggest that the M6 is in fact neutral and transparent.  It would be good to have a HD600 around to compare in terms of having a neutral benchmark that doesn't push the power output.  I think I will be sticking with the M6 for some time to come though, as honestly none of the amplifiers at this price point would stand a chance against the M6 IMO.  EF-6 is a little sweeter, but in my experience traded some detail and definition in return for this.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





drez said:


> I think the old definition of class A has to do with idle current, no real idea how that works out in terms of 100/50 ohms.  Either way I think 1600mW into 50 Ohms will be pretty loud with the HE-6.  I no longer have the EF-6 or any other high-output amplifier for comparison as to whether there is any clipping type distortion, but honestyl it's pretty impossible to tell. You would need another class A (by old definition to do with idle current) ampilifier with very low distortion to compare, and even then how do you tell if one or the other is transparent or coloured.  Given the absence of any real reference point it is impossible to say whether M6 is bright or just neutral and transparent.
> IMO though the fact that only some recordings are bright (regardless of level) tends to suggest that the M6 is in fact neutral and transparent.  It would be good to have a HD600 around to compare in terms of having a neutral benchmark that doesn't push the power output.  I think I will be sticking with the M6 for some time to come though, as honestly none of the amplifiers at this price point would stand a chance against the M6 IMO.  EF-6 is a little sweeter, but in my experience traded some detail and definition in return for this.


 
  The power output in old def of class A should double when impedance is halved (for SS amps) - just as in class AB. (To me class A is only the "old"def.)
   
  The 800mW (in 50 Ohm) I mentioned was doubled from the 100 Ohm spec (400mW) that you wrote earlier. Am I right that you doubled the figure that I wrote into 1600mW?
   
  Interesting what you think of the Master-6 vs. the EF-6. Did you have them side-by-side to compare?
  The sweeter (warmer?) sound of the EF-6 could very well be because it's running class A.


----------



## tim3320070

I have definitely left some recordings behind since going to AGD gear- it does reveal the poor quality they were recorded in. I would not trade this clarity though for a smearing that would make it more listenable as the good recordings are spine tingling.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





larshp said:


> The power output in old def of class A should double when impedance is halved (for SS amps) - just as in class AB. (To me class A is only the "old"def.)
> 
> The 800mW (in 50 Ohm) I mentioned was doubled from the 100 Ohm spec (400mW) that you wrote earlier. Am I right that you doubled the figure that I wrote into 1600mW?
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think the sweetness/warmth of the EF-6 is probably more likely due to sound signature tuning than the output current.  A good experiment is to turn the volume down and listen to recordings you find too bright.  I find almost no change in the brightness with lower volume, therefore I think the Master 6 is transparent and neutral rather than bright.  Don't get me wrong the EF-6 could equally bite with bright recordings as overall it also was quote transparent, and I never tried it out with good interconnects as I didn't want to invest in single ended cables until I was sure.  As it turned out the transformer in the EF-6 picked up too much line noise on my circuit, so I was sort of forced into changing to the Master 6.  Overally though, I agree with tim that with good recordings, the Maseter 6 is just unmatched.  
   
  Other methods of tuning system sound signature can be dune with cabling, playback software, playback streaming method, transport selection etc.  IME Audio-GD USB transports are a tad on the dark and warm side, so the new DI could very well be an excellent choice.  Battery power is also often found to reduce harshness of a component esp transport.  In most cases though there is a tradeoff between transparency and warmth (maybe in exception of battery power.)  With my system I even find that file format and buffer size plays a role (flac often seems warmer than WAVE, large buffer size increase warmth but reduces fidelity)  If your HE-6 is out of warranty (as mine is) it might be worth trying hard-wiring (but I would want a longer cable first as DIY hard wiring plus short cable = problems...)


----------



## LarsHP

Just to clarify:
  I am very, very satisfied with the Master-6, and I think it is neutral, open mids, extremely transparent, it has no harsh treble and a tight bass. I don't find it bright sounding, however the HE-6 is somewhat bright. This is also stated by Tyll at InnerFidelity.
   
  However, my point is that if you take a certain amp circuit that's running class AB and then make it run class A, the sound gets warmer / sweeter. My power amp has a switch for choosing class AB or A, and when it runs class A, there is less veil and a warmer tone. (Purrin has stated the same thing about when modding an amp into class A.)
   
  One more thing about this "old" and "new" definition of class A. I don't think there is any such thing, but there may very well be something to it, when we are talking Audio-gd amps, because they are built as current domain and has no fixed gain, but a variable gain: current and gain increases as volume increases.
   
  BTW: There is not a single amp in audio running class B (that I know of). All analogue amps are running either AB or A.


----------



## lmswjm

Kingwa  1,  Fang  0
   
I wonder how Mr. Samuels would fare. He would definitely win the "blow out the HE-6 drivers" portion of the contest.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





larshp said:


> Just to clarify:
> I am very, very satisfied with the Master-6, and I think it is neutral, open mids, extremely transparent, it has no harsh treble and a tight bass. I don't find it bright sounding, however the HE-6 is somewhat bright. This is also stated by Tyll at InnerFidelity.
> 
> However, my point is that if you take a certain amp circuit that's running class AB and then make it run class A, the sound gets warmer / sweeter. My power amp has a switch for choosing class AB or A, and when it runs class A, there is less veil and a warmer tone. (Purrin has stated the same thing about when modding an amp into class A.)
> ...


 
   
  I think this is pretty spot on - neutral + bright = bright, so to make HE-6 neutral needs a slightly coloured amplifier or other mods/equipment imo.  One thing for sure is the EF-6 runs in class-A the amount of heat it puts out is insane.


----------



## blankdisc

i totally agree with drez. I also think that HE-6 needs an amp that has a warm/sweet sound signature. I had a chance to listen to the master-6, and i think that personally i prefer EF6 with my HE-6. 
   
  Don't get me wrong. Master-6 is a GREAT amp. I almost ordered one (MASTER-5) until i heard EF6.
   
  Compare against EF6 i fee that Master-6 is just a little bit too unforgiving. The source and the recording must have extremely good quality. On the other hand EF6 sounds good even with an iPod as the source. 
   
  At the end of the day i decided that EF6 is a little bit more fun and musical to listen to. 
   
  If you want neutral and referencing sound, MASTER-6 is a good choice. If you want a warm, sweet and musical sound, EF6 is probably better.
   
  just my two cents...


----------



## LarsHP

I think it has much to do with pairing/synergy also. In my case I solved the HE-6 brightness (it is in fact a little bright sounding) with a simple, but effective mod, and then the setup sounds just perfect. In my mind it is better to adjust where the unbalance is instead of counterbalancing, but in the end it's how the complete chain sounds.


----------



## blankdisc

Personally i don't think that HE-6's sound signature is bright. It will def sound bright if not giving enough power, and HE-6 needs a lot of power. 
   
  We all hear things differently. At the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference. 
   
  Have a sound signature is actually good. Having a little bit color in the sound is actually good (as long as it was done tastefully and mildly). Most of the hi-end products have its own sound signature. Dead neutral stuff doesn't usually sell well except for professional use.


----------



## colour97

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> i totally agree with drez. I also think that HE-6 needs an amp that has a warm/sweet sound signature. I had a chance to listen to the master-6, and i think that personally i prefer EF6 with my HE-6.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. Master-6 is a GREAT amp. I almost ordered one (MASTER-5) until i heard EF6.
> 
> ...


 
   
  i totally agree Master-6 is just a little bit too unforgiving. The source and the recording must have extremely good quality.
   
  the bad recording really need to think about how to find a coloured tube amp to listen to. master 6 do unforgive all of them. no bargain.


----------



## LarsHP

I don't find the Master-6 unforgiving, just extremely transparent and highly resolving. 

I have had the HE-6 for more than a year, and thought it was perfectly balanced until a month or two ago: I attended some classical concerts (w/o amplification), and that made my suspicion clearer. Often when listening to recordings I have felt it was somewhat bright, but I thought that well this is probably how the recording is. Now I am convinced that the HE-6 is in fact bright - or to put it more precisely: it has too much upper mids and treble. Take a look at the frequency graphs at HeadRoom and InnerFidelity and read what they say about how the optimal graph should look. They are indirectly and directly saying that the HE-6 has too much in the upper frequencies. 

My amps - both the Master-6 and my 50 Watt class A power amp - are more than powerful enough to drive the HE-6 to it's full potential. And frankly, I am beginning to think that this power issue w/ HE-6 is also because it is bright, and when you have much more than enough power on tap, the brightness lessens. However, it doesn't disappear completely - in my opinion of course.


----------



## lmswjm

I always thought the HE6 was a little tipped up in the treble, but overall pretty neutral. I'd like to hear the SR-009 one day to really hear what neutral sounds like.


----------



## LarsHP

lmswjm said:


> I always thought the HE6 was a little tipped up in the treble, but overall pretty neutral. I'd like to hear the SR-009 one day to really hear what neutral sounds like.



Jude said in his Head-fi TV review of the SR-009, that it was a little bright (!) If you want your HE-6 darker, then put a piece of felt between the earpad and the magnet grill and make a hole of about 3,5 - 4,5 cm roughly in the centre, and then it sounds just as you want (bigger hole=brighter, smaller hole=darker).


----------



## lmswjm

Thanks for the tip Lars, but I wound up selling my HE6's a while back. I have the new Fostex TH900's on order now. Hope to have them by next week. As you might have guessed, my tastes lean toward the euphonic side of neutral.
   
  BTW, what phone would be widely accepted as neutral then? I suppose that could be a thread all of its own.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





larshp said:


> I don't find the Master-6 unforgiving, just extremely transparent and highly resolving.
> I have had the HE-6 for more than a year, and thought it was perfectly balanced until a month or two ago: I attended some classical concerts (w/o amplification), and that made my suspicion clearer. Often when listening to recordings I have felt it was somewhat bright, but I thought that well this is probably how the recording is. Now I am convinced that the HE-6 is in fact bright - or to put it more precisely: it has too much upper mids and treble. Take a look at the frequency graphs at HeadRoom and InnerFidelity and read what they say about how the optimal graph should look. They are indirectly and directly saying that the HE-6 has too much in the upper frequencies.
> My amps - both the Master-6 and my 50 Watt class A power amp - are more than powerful enough to drive the HE-6 to it's full potential. And frankly, I am beginning to think that this power issue w/ HE-6 is also because it is bright, and when you have much more than enough power on tap, the brightness lessens. However, it doesn't disappear completely - in my opinion of course.


 
   
  How do you find the two compare in terms of sound signature?  I think I might felt mod my velour pads as well.  On my system some recordings like Deutschegrammophon are great, DECCA on the other hand is too bright and slightly grainy.


----------



## LarsHP

drez said:


> How do you find the two compare in terms of sound signature?  I think I might felt mod my velour pads as well.  On my system some recordings like Deutschegrammophon are great, DECCA on the other hand is too bright and slightly grainy.



The Master-6 is just a hair more transparent than the LC Audio ZAPsolute Mk.4 power amp, which in turn is a little warmer. Not much difference, but it's there on high quality recordings. (I am using the Master-6 as pre amp.)


----------



## Larryonfire

Lars, you will be better of with the Master 8, take one for the team 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





blankdisc said:


> i totally agree with drez. I also think that HE-6 needs an amp that has a warm/sweet sound signature. I had a chance to listen to the master-6, and i think that personally i prefer EF6 with my HE-6.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. Master-6 is a GREAT amp. I almost ordered one (MASTER-5) until i heard EF6.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I've read quite a few post of people claiming & implying the master 5/6 to be unforgiving, & unmusical so I thought I'd chime in.
  I have the Ref 7.1 + Master 5 and I have never head such a sweet, fun, musical & insanely hi-end presentation. I am a self confessed basshead and love romantic musicality.  Now the 7.1/M5 combo is very detailed, transparent & neutral - but it is done in a grain/harsh free musical manner with deep tight bass a plenty. There is a wealth of authority and body to the music but it is done in a way that does not detract from the intent of the recording. This is where the brilliance of Kingwa's ethos is apparent imo. 
  The best way I can describe it is - Neutral done properly. 
  Goes without saying that I do not believe empty, bright sound signatures like HD800 to be neutral - in fact far from it.


----------



## nigeljames

I don't know how anyone could find the Master-6 'unmusical'. With the NFB-7, and from other observations the Ref7, its highly musical.
   
  I admit the LCD2r2's are more 'fun' than the HE6's but is that not the nature of the phones.
  Personally if I had an headphone that is neutral, detailed and transparent, which I believe the HE6's are, then I would not want an amp to color that.
  So the Master-6 fits the bill very well indeed.


----------



## Currawong

Synergy between components is definitely important.  I have the same issue with the hybrid Stacker II vs. my Phoenix: It's slightly less resolving but a little more "musical" and pairs best with my Metrum Octave, rather than the Ref 7.1, as the latter seems to boost the bass slightly in combination.
   
  lmswjm: Once you've heard treble from a 'stat, you'll be done for. It's rather like the first time you hear mids from an ortho.


----------



## Larryonfire

I agree on the synergy thing, it does matter a lot to find the right balance between the different parts in ones system. I spend some time, a few weeks back with the Metrum Octave in my own setup and it was great fun. Very dynamic sounding, had good control and brought some calmness in the music because of the PSU. In A/B comparison with my Calyx 24/192 DAC, the Metrum was not as transperant but more musical. I could easily live with the Octave and maybe I will buy it, nice to switch between two DAC´s that gives different presentations. Sorry if it was a little of topic, but point is, all parts matters for the synergy. Sometimes you trade of in one area to gain in another and it still gives you a smile on your face.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





larryonfire said:


> Lars, you will be better of with the Master 8, take one for the team
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Sure I will !
  Just send me the money and I will get this done


----------



## lmswjm

```

```



currawong said:


> lmswjm: Once you've heard treble from a 'stat, you'll be done for. It's rather like the first time you hear mids from an ortho.




"Give me bass weight, or give me death"

But seriously, stats are high on my list for my next meet.


----------



## tim3320070

I am finding that I like a heavy weighted sound but I do that with headphones and speakers, using a highly resolving source and amp for the "fidelity". I should probably try it the other way around for good measure.


----------



## lmswjm

As long as we are off topic, permit me to continue on with this theme base on MuppetFace's latest musings on the TH900 as I impatiently wait for its delivery:
   
   
"There is a certain weightiness to the TH900's sound---in part thanks to the slight bass emphasis, but also across the entire sonic spectrum---that gives it a definite sense of presence. It conveys instruments as _grounded_, placing them on a more solid foundation in the sonic space which surrounds the listener. Having lived with the TH900 for several weeks now, I've come to appreciate just how adept it is at imaging; in fact I'd go so far as to say it deserves a spot alongside the most capable electrodynamic headphones in this regard.
   
While these spatial qualities are important to me in their own right, it's the overarching phenomena to which they contribute I find most intriguing: the sense of _being there_ amidst the performance. It's a sense of presence or physical manifestation, a cumulative effect that is more than the sum of its parts and difficult to ascribe with any great degree of certainty to specific variables. Grossly overgeneralizing the strengths of various technologies, it often seems as though orthodynamic headphones excel here more than their electrodynamic counterparts in my humble opinion (though the piezoelectric TakeT H2+ still reigns supreme in this respect). Nevertheless, the TH900 is able to convey music in a fairly lifelike and convincing manner, drawing the listener in with its immersive presentation and sound that pulsates with vital energy. As I've mentioned previously, music just seems to have an organic quality when played through the TH900; it sounds as though it were alive, as though it were natural.
   
I feel a connection to the music, and in this sense I feel as though I'm partaking of it."
   
   
   
  Please forgive the OT and my drool, but these should see a lot of time on my Master 6 and Phoenix for relevance sake


----------



## colour97

master 6 as a pre amp to pair with 300B tube amp as power amp and  headphone out to senn hd650.


----------



## preproman

This is vary confusing.  I see this for the Master 8 = Headphone amp Output Power - (Balanced , Class A , High power model) = 50 ohm:   7000MW.
   
  [size=x-small]How many watts is this going into 50 ohms?[/size]


----------



## nigeljames

7 watts per channel, the same as my Master-6


----------



## tme110

preproman said:


> This is vary confusing.  I see this for the Master 8 = Headphone amp Output Power - (Balanced , Class A , High power model) = 50 ohm:   7000MW.
> 
> [size=x-small]How many watts is this going into 50 ohms?[/size]


 

 what part are you confused about?


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> what part are you confused about?


 
  I got it now thanks.  
   
  How about the H, L - power switche on the back of the Master 8?  I know what the gain switches are for - but what are the H, L  power switches used for?


----------



## Anda

Quote: 





preproman said:


> How about the H, L - power switche on the back of the Master 8?  I know what the gain switches are for - but what are the H, L  power switches used for?


 
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master8/Master-8EN_Use.htm


----------



## nigeljames

From the Audio-gd website:
   
*[size=small]How to choose the output models in Master-8 :[/size]*[size=small]* *[/size]
[size=x-small]                     Master-8 have a switch on rear can select between high power model and low power model base on different headphones request . *( Before select , Must power off and waiting least 10 seconds ) *, both models are working on without "switch distortion" Class A state.
                      Master-8 have a switch on rear can select the gain boost on XLR and RCA input model for some low output level source can cooperate with Master-8 perform high power output. * ( Before select please lower the volume at first )*[/size]


----------



## RedBull

Guys, I like Audio Gd sound signature, usually smooth, relax transient, I seriously consider Master 8 (7 Watt for LCD-2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, my LCD-2 will thank me for that), I think it will pair nicely with my Ref 7.1.
   
  Does anyone has Master 8 (or 6) and Lehmann BCL can do some sound comparison?  It is not to replace BCL as I like the signature A LOT, but you know, I need something BETTER!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Thanks.


----------



## RedBull

Has anyone try using SE headphone with it?  cos I do not have any intention to convert my headphone to balance.
   
  With Phoenix, the SE performance is so-so, I'm afraid Master 8 too (hope not),  That will be very dissapointing for me


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Guys, I like Audio Gd sound signature, usually smooth, relax transient, I seriously consider Master 8 (7 Watt for LCD-2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Master 5/6/8 & Ref 7.1 is seriously impressive - end game - performance (if we would ever accept such a thing!) You wont be disappointed. 
  As far as single ended, the amp performs really well - surprisingly well. I tried it out when testing some RCA cables. 
  Also used it for a while with SE Sig Pro's & Beyer T1's before I re cabled them. Although there is a clear step up again when going balanced and it seems mad to own such an elaborate flagship amp and not use it's capabilities??


----------



## nigeljames

I use my unbalanced T1's with the  Master-6. Sounds very good but hope to re-terminate soon.
  But it is a balanced amp and if you don't intend to use it that way,especially as you already have a balanced DAC, you won't reap the full benefits.
   
  As for the 'relax transient' quote, I think you are hearing your source rather than the amp. With the NFB-7 transient rich nusic is quite stunning and extremely fast. Certainly not 'relaxed' unless the music is that way.


----------



## RedBull

The reason I don't do balance is because I'm not believer in Balance other than it gives louder sound, sorry guys.  For long distance, yes ...
   
  My Leben is only single ended, but it sounds as nice (if not better) than majority of anything out there.
   
  My only worry is, if Master 8 SE is only 'after thought' and not given enough attention to the sound quality.
  Anyway, there's already a lot of threads dedicated to Balance vs SE performance and I don't want to derail this thread, I just want to know the reality for Master 8 itself, if SE is seriously designed or just for convenience.


----------



## drez

Master 8 is designed to be a balanced amplifier, the components and topology were designed to be used in a certain way and reflect the design philosophy.  You can get some idea of the reason/intention he uses balanced toplogy, current signalling and other aspects from the AudioGD website.
   
  In my understanding it can be used single ended but you are paying for functionality and components you are not using.


----------



## RedBull

It's ok   I want the best performance out from SE connection. 
   
  Will I still get 7 watts per channel out from SE connection?  or will I get just half of that?
   
  At least, I can still utilize ACSS performance connecting to Ref 7.1


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





redbull said:


> It's ok   I want the best performance out from SE connection.
> 
> Will I still get 7 watts per channel out from SE connection?  or will I get just half of that?
> 
> At least, I can still utilize ACSS performance connecting to Ref 7.1


 
  As far as I am aware, no, you wont get the full 7 watts.


----------



## lmswjm

The Master 6 is a great amp, either SE or Balanced. SE is not an afterthought.  I have no plans of balancing my TH900 or W3000ANV. I've heard my Phoenix (balanced) and a Leben at a meet and didn't think I was missing anything. It would be hard to imagine that you would be disappointed with the 7.1 > ACSS > Master 8 to whatever. I would get a balanced cable for the Audeze for power sake, but you probably will still get approx 2/3 to 3/4's volume SE.


----------



## nigeljames

*Redbull*: I am surprised you say you are not a believer in balanced yet you have a balanced DAC! I don't know what outputs you are using from the DAC but if they are RCA then you are probably missing out on what the DAC is capable off.
   
   As regards power I use a volume level on my unbalanced T1's only slightly below my balanced HE6's. I could be wrong but it's always been stated that using any balanced Audio-gd amp single ended menas using half the amp and therefore half the output power.
   
  The master-6/8 does have a good single ended output BUT it was designed for balance use and using it single ended would be like buying a super fast sports car and only use it to go to the shops.


----------



## tim3320070

I don't know know why you wouldn't spend $15-20 (and 15 minutes time) to reterminate to balanced just to see even if you're convinced it's placebo. At the very least you have more current with the same clarity.


----------



## lmswjm

I understand the desire not to go balanced from the beginning. The 7.1, however, potentially opens a can of worms. If you utilize rca's and go SE from that point, you're obviously not going the optimal route. That said, I'm fine going optimal all of the way, and then using SE headphones. Volume aside, I don't think there is a night and day difference in SQ. If it was an ortho with removable cables, I would go balanced though. Easy to drive headphones that are valuable with fixed cables would be another story.


----------



## FauDrei

Hmm... If, hypothetically, I already own RE-7.1, LCD-2 and Master-8, would I invest a couple of hundreds more for (f.e. Norse Audio's) LCD-2/3 balanced cable? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  ...perhaps even with matching 4-pin XLR to RTS adapter if it turns out I really, really do not like the sound of my balanced LCD-2.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





customnuts said:


> As far as I am aware, no, you wont get the full 7 watts.


 
   
  I think so too.  In Audio Gd website, the output power only mentioned in Balance, don't even bother to say output power for SE.
   
_[size=x-small]50 ohm:   7000MW
 100 ohm: 3500MW
 300 ohm: 1200MW
 600 ohm:   600MW
 (Balanced , Class A , High power model)[/size]_
   
  Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> The Master 6 is a great amp, either SE or Balanced. SE is not an afterthought.  I have no plans of balancing my TH900 or W3000ANV. I've heard my Phoenix (balanced) and a Leben at a meet and didn't think I was missing anything. It would be hard to imagine that you would be disappointed with the 7.1 > ACSS > Master 8 to whatever. I would get a balanced cable for the Audeze for power sake, but you probably will still get approx 2/3 to 3/4's volume SE.


 
   
  That's what I thought too.  I have *SE-only* (BCL, Leben) amp and if I have to change my LCD-2 to balance to sound good, that would be quite troublesome having to swap cable when I want to use different amp.  Not to mentioned non-replaceable headphones like Fostex T50RP and AD700, which I like the sound too, I wouldn't want to cut cable for Balance.
   
  Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> *Redbull*: I am surprised you say you are not a believer in balanced yet you have a balanced DAC! I don't know what outputs you are using from the DAC but if they are RCA then you are probably missing out on what the DAC is capable off.
> 
> As regards power I use a volume level on my unbalanced T1's only slightly below my balanced HE6's. I could be wrong but it's always been stated that using any balanced Audio-gd amp single ended menas using half the amp and therefore half the output power.
> 
> The master-6/8 does have a good single ended output BUT it was designed for balance use and using it single ended would be like buying a super fast sports car and only use it to go to the shops.


 
   
  I bought Ref. 7.1 not because I want the Balance function, but because I want the best SE DAC performance that I can afford. 
  I asked Kingwa, what the best SE DAC performance he has.  He recommended DAC19, but I asked him again, SE to SE compared, which is better, DAC19 or Ref. 7.1? he said that Ref. 7.1 is still better than DAC19 even on SE performance.
  I believe his statement because several feedback, like Headfonia, comparing Ref. 7.1 and Bryston, he (Mike) said that Ref. 7.1 is better, and he only test that on SE.
  That's my consideration when selecting Ref. 7.1  of course if I have Balance amp, I will use the Balance connection, or even ACSS, but I won't change my amp or having to swap cables (inconvenience) just to get Balance connection out of my Ref. 7.1, no way.
  I believe good sound can be churned out from either Balance or SE connection.
   
  Maybe if I have HE-6, I will definitely reterminate to Balance as my other amps can't drive them anyway.  But the thing is, I don't think I like the sound of HE-6, I'm a darker sound person.
   
  I don't mind buying sports car for buying groceries in the supermarket, if I can still enjoy the ride anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I don't know know why you wouldn't spend $15-20 (and 15 minutes time) to reterminate to balanced just to see even if you're convinced it's placebo. At the very least you have more current with the same clarity.


 
   
  As mentioned in my previous reply, I have other amps that have SE-only connection that the sound I like.  I won't sell them


----------



## RedBull

Has anyone compared to another power monster like BCL, Lyr, V200, Darkstar or even Mini Torri if that make sense (SS vs tubes), Mjolnir anyone?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, regardless of price, just performance alone.
  I heard Lyr, Darkstar myself.  
  I read a LOT about V200 and considerably Mini Torri, through Skylab review, not much yet on Mjolnir.
   
  From experience reading forums, I can only get to understand the sound of a component through comparison.  This is darker than that, soundstage is deeper than that => I can accurately portray the sound in my mind, even without trying.  This is what I do before I buy Ref. 7.1 and when I finally decided to buy, I get exactly the sound that I imagine I would have.


----------



## tim3320070

> As mentioned in my previous reply, I have other amps that have SE-only connection that the sound I like.  I won't sell them


 
  I failed to mention the additional 10-12 minutes to create the 4-pin to SE adapter that costs another $7-8 in plugs. Hey, if it's too much, it's too much for you!


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





redbull said:


> It's ok   I want the best performance out from SE connection.
> 
> Will I still get 7 watts per channel out from SE connection?  or will I get just half of that?
> 
> At least, I can still utilize ACSS performance connecting to Ref 7.1





  As far as I am aware, no, you wont get the full 7 watts. 
   
   
   
   
  I think some one needs to verify this with Audio-gd.  I don't see how you can get the same watts out of a balanced output and the SE output.  This is a balanced amp by design.  From what I have seen on other balanced amps - balanced outputs are 2x the output of SE.
   
  Just needs to be verified.


----------



## preproman

This is a balanced amp by design.  I think you will get your moneys worth if you go with a balanced source and balanced headphones.  Otherwise maybe you should get a SE amp by design.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





preproman said:


> As far as I am aware, no, you wont get the full 7 watts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  SE doesn't employ the full circuitry of this design. This was established early on when the Phoenix was released. When I'm using my SE adapter, I have to turn the volume up an additional 25% (approx) to get to the same dB levels.
   
  @ RedBull: I don't believe you need to balance the LCD2 to get it to sound good. Currawong could probably better confirm this.


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





redbull said:


> That's what I thought too.  I have *SE-only* (BCL, Leben) amp and if I have to change my LCD-2 to balance to sound good, that would be quite troublesome having to swap cable when I want to use different amp.  Not to mentioned non-replaceable headphones like Fostex T50RP and AD700, which I like the sound too, I wouldn't want to cut cable for Balance.


 
  To go balanced to SE, all you need is an adapter.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> @ RedBull: I don't believe you need to balance the LCD2 to get it to sound good. Currawong could probably better confirm this.


 
   
  I have re cabled all my cables for my B22 - I'll tell you.  It has made more of a difference besides volume levels.  Detail retrieval has improved as well.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I have re cabled all my cables for my B22 - I'll tell you.  It has made more of a difference besides volume levels.  Detail retrieval has improved as well.


 
  x2 re balanced
  if your using the M5/6/8, for you will get noticeably better performance balanced - regardless of the can. (unless too sensitive for M6)


----------



## Currawong

I don't claim to understand amp circuits well, but I tend to look at things this way:
   
  Audio equipment designers have quite a range of circuit topologies they can choose from, along with choices about components used and features they can include, along with any compromises made as a result. Since most amps output from the same, standard TRS socket, we don't have to give as much consideration to the topology, unless we're considering an OTL tube amp and its related impedance issues.  Balanced topologies are a design choice, like any other (just like whether or not to use OPAMPs or negative feedback or whatever), but for us, they affect us more directly, as they can't use a conventional headphone socket, due to the separated signal returns. As a result of this, I think people pay more attention to the benefits or issues with such a design than they might the finer points of the design choices in amps with a conventional output.
   
  I reckon, if you have a Ref 7.1, getting the Master 8 would be a good match, because you can get the most out of the design of both, using the ACSS connection. If not that though, I'd still get an amp with a balanced design if possible.


----------



## drez

For me I just trust Kingwa's ears - I think he puts a lot of work into tuning the sound signature of his amplifiers.  If an amplifier is designed to be balanced, using it single ended will halve the corner frequency the amplifier is capable of and designed to use and therefore you are getting a sound that is different to that intended by the designer.  With the Master 6 I find that sound a little less detailed and precise *when running single ended*.  Overall though I find the Ref 7.1 Master 6 combination very transparent and revealing yet also natural when used balanced.
   
  With previous AudioGD amplifier I had I tried altering the output voltage to colour the sound, but in the end I found the stock setting to produce the best results.  Having said this I am guilty of using my Ref 7.1 and Master 6 using XLR IC rather than the ACSS connection - so I guess I better build myself some ACSS cables
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
   
  EDIT to make my point clear


----------



## Kingwa

Just a short pick up for the balance headphone amps.
   
  Advantage:
  1, Less distortion : The balance amp built with two  amps for the hot and cold signal in each channel, the cold and hot signal will meeting at the headphone, so can  counteract most distortion .
  2, Higher S/N : The philosophy as the point 1, the balance amp not only counteract distortion but also counteract  the noise from transmit between source and amp and the amps inborn noise . So balance amp not only have advantage in long distance transmit but short distance transmit for less noise .
  3, Higher Slew rate Etc : If a single ended amp have 100V/us slew rate, a balance amp based on this single end amp can arrive 200V/us . The faster Slew rate can keep the signal output more follow the input signal  , thus have more neutral and monitor sound, easy arrive "the wire with gain" .
  4, Less request from power supply : Even the power supply undulate but the balance amps based on the difference can avoid the effect .
  5, Higher power output : In theory is 4 times .
  6, Less effect by the parts model :  Keep the balance amps have same parameter parts can easy arrive the design target .
   
  Weakness:
 1, Higher cost : Four amps for the stereo headphone amp, compare to two amps in the single ended amp , usually have near double cost . And request the parts parameter exact match in the hot and cold amp cause the building cost higher.
  2, Larger size : Usually have near double size .
  3, Higher output impedance : Usually have double output impedance . For a Monstor power amp, lower the output impedance to 50% is much difficult but for a headphone amp, lower the output impedance to 50% just easy, maybe without any cost increase .


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I failed to mention the additional 10-12 minutes to create the 4-pin to SE adapter that costs another $7-8 in plugs. Hey, if it's too much, it's too much for you!


 
   
  Not that it is too much, but I do not want to modify cables, ... ya, in other words it's too much for me ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> As far as I am aware, no, you wont get the full 7 watts.
> 
> I think some one needs to verify this with Audio-gd.  I don't see how you can get the same watts out of a balanced output and the SE output.  This is a balanced amp by design.  From what I have seen on other balanced amps - balanced outputs are 2x the output of SE.
> 
> Just needs to be verified.


 
   
  I asked Kingwa today, confirm I won't get full 7 watts out of SE, not even half  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> This is a balanced amp by design.  I think you will get your moneys worth if you go with a balanced source and balanced headphones.  Otherwise maybe you should get a SE amp by design.


 
   
  Agree, but which one?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  V200?  I think Lyr sounds fun, but I'm afraid I accidentally burn my high sensitivity headphone and it's not so detail, but fun.  I'm a sucker for detail.
  Anyone compared Master 8 vs Beta22 in SE mode?
   
  Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> SE doesn't employ the full circuitry of this design. This was established early on when the Phoenix was released. When I'm using my SE adapter, I have to turn the volume up an additional 25% (approx) to get to the same dB levels.
> 
> @ RedBull: I don't believe you need to balance the LCD2 to get it to sound good. Currawong could probably better confirm this.


 
   
  Yes, definitely, I tried my friend Phoenix in SE more with T1.  It sounds .... so so ...
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> I have re cabled all my cables for my B22 - I'll tell you.  It has made more of a difference besides volume levels.  Detail retrieval has improved as well.


 
   
  To me, an amp that designed for Balance, going from its SE mode to Balance (which it is actually designed for) will definitely improve the sound.
  But amp that's designed for SE (and added Balance for convenience), going from SE to Balance, degrade the sound.
  That's the logic that I believe.
   
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> I don't claim to understand amp circuits well, but I tend to look at things this way:
> 
> Audio equipment designers have quite a range of circuit topologies they can choose from, along with choices about components used and features they can include, along with any compromises made as a result. Since most amps output from the same, standard TRS socket, we don't have to give as much consideration to the topology, unless we're considering an OTL tube amp and its related impedance issues.  Balanced topologies are a design choice, like any other (just like whether or not to use OPAMPs or negative feedback or whatever), but for us, they affect us more directly, as they can't use a conventional headphone socket, due to the separated signal returns. As a result of this, I think people pay more attention to the benefits or issues with such a design than they might the finer points of the design choices in amps with a conventional output.
> 
> I reckon, if you have a Ref 7.1, getting the Master 8 would be a good match, because you can get the most out of the design of both, using the ACSS connection. If not that though, I'd still get an amp with a balanced design if possible.


 
   
  Correct though, but the limitation then is at the headphone amp which is less than half its Balance out.
  It's either I maxxed out the DAC performance, which inherently optimized for ACSS, but sacrifice on Headphone SE out or
  not maximizing my DAC out, but I'll get FULL headamp SE out with other (???) amp.
   
  Quote: 





drez said:


> For me I just trust Kingwa's ears - I think he puts a lot of work into tuning the sound signature of his amplifiers.  If an amplifier is designed to be balanced, using it single ended will halve the corner frequency the amplifier is capable of and designed to use and therefore you are getting a sound that is different to that intended by the designer.  *With the Master 6 I find that sound a little less detailed and precise*.  Overall though I find the combination very transparent and revealing yet also natural.
> 
> With previous AudioGD amplifier I had I tried altering the output voltage to colour the sound, but in the end I found the stock setting to produce the best results.  Having said this I am guilty of using my Ref 7.1 and Master 6 using XLR IC rather than the ACSS connection - so I guess I better build myself some ACSS cables


 
   
  ^ little less detailed, compared to?
  I actually too, kinda like Kingwa's sound preference that's why I keep following A-Gd products, but why oh why every top end he design are Balance  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  Just kidding, I'm sure he has strong reason for that.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> Just a short pick up for the balance headphone amps.
> 
> Advantage:
> 1, Less distortion : The balance amp built with two  amps for the hot and cold signal in each channel, the cold and hot signal will meeting at the headphone, so can  counteract most distortion .
> ...


 
   
  Thanks Kingwa for the technical explanation.  Looks like I have to buy Norse Balance cable for my LCD-2  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  As for the weakness #2.  I heard that the 'exact match'nes will drift over time?  that will cause unevenness on the sound?


----------



## Kingwa

The advantage point 6 can explain this.
   
  The balance amp have less effect by the parts parameter changed than the single ended amp.
   
  In ACSS amp, the signal point is on the resistors not as the other amps the point on the transistors .
   
  The resistors are much less sensitive  by time and temperature than the transistors.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Agree, but which one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Have not compared it.  Audio-gd has made several versions of their Master series amps.  The same B22 design has been around for years.  I'm a bit pratial to DIY especially the ones from YBM and SWA.  Those guys know what they're doing and have been doing it for years.  
   
  What I'm saying is if you get a balanced amp then it use with balanced Headphones.  If you are only going to use SE connections then get a SE designed amp.  This way you'll be getting the full potential of both.  It's way better than getting a balanced amp and using it in SE mode just to say "I have a balanced amp"  Just get a SE amp.
   
  Take the GS-1 and the GS-X.  At the point in time when I got my GS-1, I said hell I should get the GS-X - Justin ask why, if your only going to use it in SE mode.  Might as well get the GS-1.  You get the same output power of out both SE outputs. GS-1 and GS-X  -  So save some money.  The GS-X is for if your going to use it with balanced Headphones.
   
  Just my 2 cents..


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





redbull said:


> The reason I don't do balance is because I'm not believer in Balance other than it gives louder sound, sorry guys.  For long distance, yes ...
> 
> My Leben is only single ended, but it sounds as nice (if not better) than majority of anything out there.
> 
> ...


 
  "For long distance ..." and "SE only after thought":
  These quotes makes me think you don't know the difference between balanced connection and balanced circuit design. In the latter case all circuits are doubled and the signal runs in-fase and reversed-fase in the two lines. Pro gear might only use balanced connection, which means single ended circuit design and then a conversion to balanced just before the XLR connections.
   
  The Audio-gd balanced products are fully balanced design, and this even includes single ended connection, since the RCA signal is converted to balanced signal / path and then at another RCA output then converted back again. This would be the case if you use your Ref 7.1 with RCA to your (future) Master 8 amp. Hence there will be a couple of conversions in the path where you might loose a little bit of SQ compared to a balanced connection. But still, all circuits will be in use with RCA connection (plus the SE -> Bal. -> SE conversion).


----------



## FauDrei

...not to mention that you bypass DAC's output I/V stage and preamp's input V/I stage if you use ACSS (CAST) connections. Similar to having both DAC and pre on same circuit board (but each with it's own power supply).


----------



## tim3320070

I could have reterminated your LCD cable in the time you spent responding to this thread  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  It's only simple Canare cable, nothing "fancy" you might ruin if that's what you're thinking.
   
  If you're near Chicago sometime, I can help you out with it.


----------



## .Sup

faudrei said:


> ...not to mention that you bypass DAC's output I/V stage and preamp's input V/I stage if you use ACSS (CAST) connections. Similar to having both DAC and pre on same circuit board (but each with it's own power supply).



Wow did not know that, will need to get an ACSS amp. Thanks for the info FauDrei!


----------



## drez

Quote: 





redbull said:


> ^ little less detailed, compared to?
> I actually too, kinda like Kingwa's sound preference that's why I keep following A-Gd products, but why oh why every top end he design are Balance
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sorry I meant the SE output is less deatiled and precise than the balanced.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> The advantage point 6 can explain this.
> 
> The balance amp have less effect by the parts parameter changed than the single ended amp.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Although I don't really understand electronic, but  trust you as so many high end amps offers Balance design.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  But do you know why very seldom I see speaker, even high end, have Balance connection?
  I don't try to challenge you, just want to learn from the expert.
   
  Thanks Kingwa.
   
  Quote: 





preproman said:


> Have not compared it.  Audio-gd has made several versions of their Master series amps.  The same B22 design has been around for years.  I'm a bit pratial to DIY especially the ones from YBM and SWA.  Those guys know what they're doing and have been doing it for years.
> 
> What I'm saying is if you get a balanced amp then it use with balanced Headphones.  If you are only going to use SE connections then get a SE designed amp.  This way you'll be getting the full potential of both.  It's way better than getting a balanced amp and using it in SE mode just to say "I have a balanced amp"  Just get a SE amp.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Similar situation here  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I haven't seen published Beta22 output power in SE mode so far, any idea?
   
  Quote: 





larshp said:


> "For long distance ..." and "SE only after thought":
> These quotes makes me think you don't know the difference between balanced connection and balanced circuit design. In the latter case all circuits are doubled and the signal runs in-fase and reversed-fase in the two lines. Pro gear might only use balanced connection, which means single ended circuit design and then a conversion to balanced just before the XLR connections.
> 
> The Audio-gd balanced products are fully balanced design, and this even includes single ended connection, since the RCA signal is converted to balanced signal / path and then at another RCA output then converted back again. This would be the case if you use your Ref 7.1 with RCA to your (future) Master 8 amp. Hence there will be a couple of conversions in the path where you might loose a little bit of SQ compared to a balanced connection. But still, all circuits will be in use with RCA connection (plus the SE -> Bal. -> SE conversion).


 
   
  Very interesting, I never thought of that. 
  How about V200, Lavry DA11, Grace M903, are they fully balance or just converting Balance input to SE circuitry?  I never see they mentioned about those models are fully balance.
  Btw, out of curiosity, in their web, I don't see Martin Logan N 512 is fully balance as well.
   
  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I could have reterminated your LCD cable in the time you spent responding to this thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks Tim, sorry to frustrate you with my questions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  In balance, does cable quality matters then?
   
  Quote: 





drez said:


> Sorry I meant the SE output is less deatiled and precise than the balanced.


 
   
  Thanks for confirming.


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Although I don't really understand electronic, but  trust you as so many high end amps offers Balance design.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  AVR;s  may not be balanced but many 2-channel and 'seperate' systems are.
   
  Balanced connections are less sensitive to cable quality than the standard connections and ACSS is even less so.


----------



## tme110

though while I personally believe that you can get SE systems that sound as good as SE, I also believe that components designed as balanced sound better when in balanced mode.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> I also believe that components designed as balanced sound better when in balanced mode.


 
   
  I agree 100%.  Also the V200 is not a balanced amp it just can take XLR inputs.  The V181 is their balanced amp - it's 2 V100s in the V181 box.  I think


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Thanks Tim, sorry to frustrate you with my questions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Oooh, does cable quality matter?[size=large] IMO, not at all but that's a kooky topic. Just reterminate the cable it came with- super easy if you have a solder gun, solder and a the plugs needed (can be bought from AGD when ordering the Master-8). I promise you can do it. PM me if you need further help on this.[/size]


----------



## drez

Good advice - I wouldn't bother with an aftermarket cable unless you have money to burn.  I would highly recommend the Mater 8 though, especially using the ACCS connection.  Just made up a cable using the ACCS connection and to be honest I cant rule out burn in or level differences (should be easy enough to do as the Master 6 retains different volumes for the different inputs) but off the cuff I am hearing improvements in "lack of grain" without reducing detail, dynamic transition, as well as spatial definition.  Well worth using the ACCS connection method IMO.


----------



## nigeljames

The ACSS connection has slightly lower output than XLR so even if the volume is set at say 30/70 on both ACSS and XLR XLR will be slightly louder.
  On another point I made up a ACSS cable using Homegrown Audio solid silver cable and there is very little if any difference between it and my Artisan Ultimate Silver XLR cable. Both are pure silver,one solid one stranded, but I could not tell the difference in a blind test. Total cost of the Artisan was about £200 and the HomegrownAudio about £55. Both are excellent!


----------



## drez

Well could be the XLR cable I built was crap (it's probably too inductive as I used the VHAudio interconnect recipe - new cable is same wire but just loose strands) or of course level differences or placebo (although I did my best to match level by ear), CustomNuts also told me he thinks the two connection methods sound too similar to tell apart.  The downside with ACCS is the mini-XLR connectors are a bit fiddly to wire, and at least the Rean connectors I was using don't seem to be built to very fine tolerances (Switchcrafts were 4 times more expensive though so I took my chances.)  Either way I like what I hear
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Here's a picture of anyway:


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> The ACSS connection has slightly lower output than XLR so even if the volume is set at say 30/70 on both ACSS and XLR XLR will be slightly louder.
> On another point I made up a ACSS cable using Homegrown Audio solid silver cable and there is very little if any difference between it and my Artisan Ultimate Silver XLR cable. Both are pure silver,one solid one stranded, but I could not tell the difference in a blind test. Total cost of the Artisan was about £200 and the HomegrownAudio about £55. Both are excellent!


 
  I made up some ACSS cables using silver solid core wire from Handmade electronics. Big difference in clarity over stock.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> I made up some ACSS cables using silver solid core wire from Handmade electronics. Big difference in clarity over stock.


 
   
  I never had the stock ACSS cables so can't do any comparisons.
  The Master-6 sounds so good via XLR that I almost did not bother with ACSS but I decided I wanted to free up the XLR's on my NFB-7 for when/if I purchase another balanced amp.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Oooh, does cable quality matter?[size=large] IMO, not at all but that's a kooky topic. Just reterminate the cable it came with- super easy if you have a solder gun, solder and a the plugs needed (can be bought from AGD when ordering the Master-8). I promise you can do it. PM me if you need further help on this.[/size]


 
   
  Thank you sir!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I know it's a ridiculous question for this kind of amp, has anyone tried with IEM?  any hiss?  or even causing the driver to explode?
  If you have tried, what IEM was that?


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Thank you sir!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I tried it with my Klipsch X10 and it works but you'll find that volume can't get much beyond 5/99 (1-2/99 for me) depending on source and sensitivity of the IEM.


----------



## RedBull

Do you hear hiss when no music is playing?


----------



## LarsHP

redbull said:


> Do you hear hiss when no music is playing?



Tried with my SM3 (122dB, 34 Ohms) and no hiss even when no music playing. However there was hum (from a transformer somewhere).


----------



## FauDrei

Quiet mechanical hum from transformer?
   
  Had similar issue with my RE-1. Turned out my AC power line had some DC in it. Solved with DC blocking filter. Complete system is dead silent since (when paused 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





larshp said:


> Tried with my SM3 (122dB, 34 Ohms) and no hiss even when no music playing. However there was hum (from a transformer somewhere).


 
   
  Thanks for testing for me.
   
   
  Guys, do you (heavy) stack Audio-gd on top of each other?  like Master8 on top of Ref. 7.1?  (with some non-conductive layer of course)


----------



## drez

If you must it's probably a good idea to separate the chassis a decent amount to allow adequate ventilation.  I just used 3 offcuts of pine and doesn't seem to get too hot.  I might use some wood spikes on the ref 7.1 to get some airflow underneath someday as well...  Advantage of stacking IMO is you can use very very short interconnects (but then again Master 6 and REf 7.1 use plenty of hookup wiring so who's kidding who with interconnects)


----------



## RedBull

Ok, heat related concern noted.
   
  I'm worried that the metal feet would make a permanent mark to the other gear, don't you think?


----------



## drez

There possibly a chance of that also, I guess you could use rubber/felt pads or some other isolation device.  My 3 offcuts of wood work a charm lol


----------



## chrometaphor

Just got my Master 8 in yesterday.  This thing is built like a tank.  I didn't expect it to be quite so deep so I had to do some reshuffling which took up most of my night.  I'm very pleased with it.  Using the stock XLR provided with the LCD-3 and it sounds sublime.  Looking forward to being able to mess around with it more tonight.


----------



## RedBull

^Thanks. Do you have other amp to compare the sound to?


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Do you hear hiss when no music is playing?


 
  Never hiss anywhere- all his gear is dead silent


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Thanks for testing for me.
> 
> 
> Guys, do you (heavy) stack Audio-gd on top of each other?  like Master8 on top of Ref. 7.1?  (with some non-conductive layer of course)


 
  I have it on top of my Ref-8, separated with some dense foam discs.


----------



## lmswjm

In between tracks, it is as silent as if the system is powered off.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





lmswjm said:


> In between tracks, it is as silent as if the system is powered off.


 
   
  THeres a few impressions of the Master 8/6 with the HE-6s in the HE-6 thread. But i was wondering if you had anything more indepth? or if you had the opportunity to compare the Master 6 with any other amps that are known to run the HE-6s well? such as some of those integrateds people are talking about. or any higher end speaker amps.
   
  I've decided on the HE-6s but im doing research now to pick an amp. and oddly enough i didnt like them with the Dark Star, but i loved them running out of a AMB B24 speaker amp.
   
  Edit: i just have a really hard time believing that this thing can push 7watts class A into a 50 ohm load. thats 374mAs of quiescent current, which is kind of hard to beleive, that thing would be stupid hot all the time unless you were running HE-6s at like max volume. Not to mention the Master 8 just doesnt look like it has enough capacitors -_-


----------



## tim3320070

Well if you don't believe the spec's Kingwa states, why are you interested? And yeah, it's hot.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Well if you don't believe the spec's Kingwa states, why are you interested? And yeah, it's hot.


 
   
  Its not that i dont believe it, its that i have a hard time believing it. And i want to believe it, cause i would love to own one, i just want to make sure that its powerful enough for the HE-6s. And i was hoping one of you would convince me that it really does put out 7watts class A into 50ohms


----------



## tim3320070

Okay, paint me cornfused then on what you mean and want- rocking my brains out to the Master-5/ Ref-8/ DT770-600 right now.


----------



## tme110

he's been putting out 5+ watts hp systems for a couple of years now.  Even his low end amps have several watts.  I'm sure it's a fully ballanced class a design probably with class a power supplies.  I have no idea if it's still class a at 7 watts though - but at the lower imedances I thought it did stay class a (ie when it's in master-5 mode).


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Yeah the website can be kind of ambiguous. Ill probably just end up sending an email to Kingwa to ask him, hes always been pretty responsive to questions in the past


----------



## macrog

In my opinion Audio-gd gear sounds much better with space between components on separate shelves. I try to position gear so that transformers are as far away from each other as possible.

Regards

Andrew


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Its not that i dont believe it, its that i have a hard time believing it. And i want to believe it, cause i would love to own one, i just want to make sure that its powerful enough for the HE-6s. And i was hoping one of you would convince me that it really does put out 7watts class A into 50ohms


 
   
   
  I think everyone who has heard the Master-6/8 can confirm that it absolutely has enougth power for the HE-6's. There is no issues with power at all.
  If Hifiman themselves bring out an amp designed purely for the HE-6's that only produces 5 watts into 50 ohms then 7 watts as got to be plenty.
   
  In reality does the Master-6 need to be producing 7 watts into 50 ohms ALL the time? It's already been stated that the Master-6 will never need to switch out of class A running the HE-6's so the Master-6 certainly is not struggling at any humane volume.


----------



## drez

Not really you would go deaf


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> THeres a few impressions of the Master 8/6 with the HE-6s in the HE-6 thread. But i was wondering if you had anything more indepth? or if you had the opportunity to compare the Master 6 with any other amps that are known to run the HE-6s well? such as some of those integrateds people are talking about. or any higher end speaker amps.
> 
> I've decided on the HE-6s but im doing research now to pick an amp. and oddly enough i didnt like them with the Dark Star, but i loved them running out of a AMB B24 speaker amp.
> 
> Edit: i just have a really hard time believing that this thing can push 7watts class A into a 50 ohm load. thats 374mAs of quiescent current, which is kind of hard to beleive, that thing would be stupid hot all the time unless you were running HE-6s at like max volume. Not to mention the Master 8 just doesnt look like it has enough capacitors -_-


 
   
  I had the HE6 for a while. Only real listening was done with the Phoenix and Master 6. Master 6 definitely better of course, but Phoenix was no slouch, especially with higher level recordings.
   
  I don't doubt that M6 pushes 7 watts, but the HE6 handles them with no signs of stress at all. That always made me wonder if there was more to be had. Yes, there is enough power for loud volume, but was the voltage swing optimal? I never got a chance to hear them with any other amps before I sold them. I would have liked to hear them off of a speaker amp to answer those questions, but never got the chance. Ultimately, I didn't feel compelled to pursue a potential dedicated rig for the HE6. However, I know LarsHP really likes his Master 6 / HE6 combo. What was the overall consensus with the Master 6/8 in the HE6 thread?
   
  BTW, what didn't you like about the Dark Star? Didn't Skylab write that was his best HE6 experience, even slightly better than his vintage receivers? If you preferred the speaker amp over the Dark Star, I doubt that the Master 8 could trump that.


----------



## RedBull

tim3320070 said:


> I have it on top of my Ref-8, separated with some dense foam discs.




Dense foam disc? How does it look like? You have photos of how you stack your gear?
I ask because my space is very limited, and I have my other amps too.
Thinking how to efficiently make space for it.



lmswjm said:


> In between tracks, it is as silent as if the system is powered off.




^ This with what phone?



macrog said:


> In my opinion Audio-gd gear sounds much better with space between components on separate shelves. I try to position gear so that transformers are as far away from each other as possible.
> Regards
> Andrew




Good idea to seperate trasformer as much as possible, but I also have limited height on my table, so separating each amp with rack is a bit tough, although I actually really want to separate each amp with rack tray so to avoid scratches to the surface of the amp.


Btw, how's Master 8 handle high impedance phones like HD650, T1 or HD800?
Any report on that?
I don't have them, but just in case.


----------



## tim3320070

Discs are those black foam air port fillers for speakers, about 3" diameter x 3" long- they compress to about 1" so that's the space between the Ref-8 and M5 (hard to show in a pic).


----------



## RedBull

I get what you mean though. So it's the soft type.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Dense foam disc? How does it look like? You have photos of how you stack your gear?
> I ask because my space is very limited, and I have my other amps too.
> Thinking how to efficiently make space for it.
> ^ This with what phone?
> ...


 
   
  I have the Master-6 not the 8 but it handles my T1's superbly and I have not even balanced them yet. I will order a 4 pin XLR today and re-terminate next week. I will then report back.


----------



## RedBull

Thanks. How do you compare T1 running on Master 6 (in SE) vs your WA6 SE?


----------



## lmswjm

I mostly use the TH900, D7000. The other phones in my sig worked just as well to my memory.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Thanks. How do you compare T1 running on Master 6 (in SE) vs your WA6 SE?


 
   
  I haven't compared then to be honest but I would say they are on the same level but the T1's are not yet fully utilising the Master-6 and the Woo is only running single ended off the DAC which should mean its at an disadvantage compared to the Master-6.
  I fully expect the T1's to go up at least a level once balanced.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Im thinking im just gonna grab a Master 3 instead for use with the HE-6s, since then i know i wont be running out of power, and plus, when i do have space for speakers ill already have a top shelf amp for them


----------



## RedBull

Oh, seriously, you want to drive HE-6 with [size=x-small]250W @ 8ohm? [/size]The website don't have data for 50/60 ohms though (obviously)?
   
  Isn't that seriously overkill?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Nevermind, let us know how it sound


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Oh, seriously, you want to drive HE-6 with [size=x-small]250W @ 8ohm? [/size]The website don't have data for 50/60 ohms though (obviously)?
> 
> Isn't that seriously overkill?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Itll be somewhere around 30-35 watts (edit: this figure actually comes out closer to 40 watts, using the simple halfing power for every doubling of impedance) i figure that it could pump into the He-6s. But i havent heard a headphone amp that can power them as well as a good speaker amp can. Even a dual mono 4 board fully balanced B22 couldnt do it. So i figure i should be safe rather than sorry, and its convenience to double as an amazing speaker amp in the future is priceless.
   
  I will be sure to ask kingwa about that gain though. the amps max voltage output is 58 volts RMS. this means that in order to need 30db of gain to hit max output your input would have to be .058 volts...most balanced sources output a voltage north of at least 4...that seems ludicrous to me. so ill ask for 20db of gain on mine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  though that math doest add up either, 58 volts into the 50ohm load of HE-6s is 67 watts. and you say, but wait it might run out of current, but this is doubtless since that only requires 1.16 amps. and in order for it to pump 1000 watts into 2 ohms it needs 22 amps, i think itll be alright 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. so somewhere above 60 watts into the HE-6s it is!


----------



## RedBull

I wonder how many email Kingwa received a day. He even responded to my email in the evening. He is super!

Oh, I dont understand your calculation btw o_O but nevermind me.


----------



## lmswjm

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Itll be somewhere around 30-35 watts i figure that it could pump into the He-6s. But i havent heard a headphone amp that can power them as well as a good speaker amp can. Even a dual mono 4 board fully balanced B22 couldnt do it. So i figure i should be safe rather than sorry, and its convenience to double as an amazing speaker amp in the future is priceless.
> 
> I will be sure to ask kingwa about that gain though. the amps max voltage output is 58 volts RMS. this means that in order to need 30db of gain to hit max output your input would have to be .058 volts...most balanced sources output a voltage north of at least 4...that seems ludicrous to me. so ill ask for 20db of gain on mine
> 
> ...


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





redbull said:


> I wonder how many email Kingwa received a day. He even responded to my email in the evening. He is super!
> Oh, I dont understand your calculation btw o_O but nevermind me.


 
   
  Which part of the calculations did you not understand?  id be happy to explain


----------



## tim3320070

Man that's crazy but go for it! The up side is that amp will rock any set of speakers you can think of.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Which part of the calculations did you not understand?  id be happy to explain


 
   
  Everything 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  for example, how do you know "*the amps max voltage output is 58 volts RMS*"?  I don't see it ion his website though.
   
  ^ Edit: oops, I saw it on the website, right in the middle.  Did Kingwa just add that in?


----------



## LarsHP

My speaker amp is 50W @ 8 Ohms in class A. It sounds warmer than my Master-6, but slightly less transparent. No difference in bass quality or quantity between them. I don't use the HE-6 via the speaker amp any longer. The Master-6 really is a master of an amp


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Everything
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Haha yeah i couldnt tell you how long its been there, so im not sure what to tell ya. as for the rest of it, i just used a couple formulas I = V/R and P = VI from which you can also create P = I(squared)R. so knowing that, the rest of it just kind of falls into place.
   
  I = current in amps
  V = voltage
  R - resistance in ohms
  P = power in watts


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Even a dual mono 4 board fully balanced B22 couldnt do it. So i figure i should be safe rather than sorry, and its convenience to double as an amazing speaker amp in the future is priceless.


 
   
  That depends on how the balanced B22 was configured for gain.  If it were mine, for example, you're probably right since I'm only using a gain of 2 per board (effective 4 per channel).  However the B22 can be configured with more gain (2x, 5x, 8x, and 11x).  If it were configured for 8x or 11x, it should be more than enough.  I would even think 5x would be enough.  It just depends how loud you really want to listen to them.  I use dynamics and not orthos.  With the HD800 and a gain of 2x, the loudest I ever use it would be the 12:30 o'clock position on my attenuator.  The HD650s seem to require a little more power so I can go up to maybe 1:30 - 2:00 on the attenuator.  But I never max it out which would be the 5:30 position.  Obviously the orthos require more power but I'd be the B22 you listened to wasn't configured for a higher gain.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> That depends on how the balanced B22 was configured for gain.  If it were mine, for example, you're probably right since I'm only using a gain of 2 per board (effective 4 per channel).  However the B22 can be configured with more gain (2x, 5x, 8x, and 11x).  If it were configured for 8x or 11x, it should be more than enough.  I would even think 5x would be enough.  It just depends how loud you really want to listen to them.  I use dynamics and not orthos.  With the HD800 and a gain of 2x, the loudest I ever use it would be the 12:30 o'clock position on my attenuator.  The HD650s seem to require a little more power so I can go up to maybe 1:30 - 2:00 on the attenuator.  But I never max it out which would be the 5:30 position.  Obviously the orthos require more power but I'd be the B22 you listened to wasn't configured for a higher gain.


 
   
  It wasnt that it didnt get loud enough, it ran out of steam when you tried to listen too loud. The soundstage started getting pretty constricted. at lower volumes it sounded pretty stellar, it just didnt hold its composure into volumes that i would more regularly listen to. Anywhere below like 12 oclock on this particular B22 sounded amazing, but when you went above that is when it started running out of steam. I believe they had each board configured to 8x gain? Im pretty sure it was the power supplies. I surmise that maybe have 4 power supply boards, one for each amp board might mitigate the issue.
   
  So i guess in leu of this that maybe a Master 8 would work, since it probably has a beefy enough power supply...its just i really liked that i could use the Master 3 in the future when i do have room for speakers...alas, i have some months still to decide


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> That depends on how the balanced B22 was configured for gain.  If it were mine, for example, you're probably right since I'm only using a gain of 2 per board (effective 4 per channel).  However the B22 can be configured with more gain (2x, 5x, 8x, and 11x).  If it were configured for 8x or 11x, it should be more than enough.  I would even think 5x would be enough.  It just depends how loud you really want to listen to them.  I use dynamics and not orthos.  With the HD800 and a gain of 2x, the loudest I ever use it would be the 12:30 o'clock position on my attenuator.  The HD650s seem to require a little more power so I can go up to maybe 1:30 - 2:00 on the attenuator.  But I never max it out which would be the 5:30 position.  Obviously the orthos require more power but I'd be the B22 you listened to wasn't configured for a higher gain.


 
   
  The gain on the B22 is set a 8X.  Like SoupRKowva said it sounded really good at anywhere below 12 O'clock.  On this B22 the HE-6 can get really load at around 3 or 4 pm however, this is when it starts to lose the fullness it had at below 12 O'clock.  Now, on the speaker amps..  The B24, UPA-2, Rotel mono blocks and the UPA-1 mono block,  the HE-6 kept the fullness, bass, and transparency at higher listening levels and for longer periods of time.
   
  Don't get me wrong.  The B22 is a amazing amp - with anything other than the HE-6.  Thats why I'm going to a mono block rig for the HE-6s.


----------



## RedBull

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> Haha yeah i couldnt tell you how long its been there, so im not sure what to tell ya. as for the rest of it, i just used a couple formulas I = V/R and P = VI from which you can also create P = I(squared)R. so knowing that, the rest of it just kind of falls into place.
> 
> I = current in amps
> V = voltage
> ...


 
   
  Got it!  I found this, which is very useful  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   

   
   
   
  Good enough?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Got it!  I found this, which is very useful
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  haha exactly, i wish id had that handy when i was doing all that math, woulda saved me some time deriving them myself


----------



## Audio-Omega

Has anyone bought a Master 8 ?


----------



## drez

Not sure, but apparently it should sound pretty much the same as Master 5 and 6 just with different features/output.  Most people who have those are pretty happy, myself included.  Any other products you are comparing against?  Maybe someone else can comment?


----------



## Audio-Omega

Probably something from Schiit or Sennheiser.


----------



## RedBull

I really still would like to compare with Lehmann BCL or Lyr (in Single ended please) if anyone could comment.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





redbull said:


> I really still would like to compare with Lehmann BCL or Lyr (in Single ended please) if anyone could comment.


 
   
  I think Lehman BCL can be cloned really easily - very simple circuit with OPamp (there are clones on the market too lol), haven't heard any of these - maybe I can give some impression after local meet tomorrow.  I will hear the Mjolnir tomorrow as well.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





drez said:


> I think Lehman BCL can be cloned really easily - very simple circuit with OPamp (there are clones on the market too lol), haven't heard any of these - maybe I can give some impression after local meet tomorrow.  I will hear the Mjolnir tomorrow as well.


 
   
  Looking forward to your impresions of the Mjolnir especially as you have the Master-6 as well.
   
  Will you be listening to it in your own system?


----------



## drez

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> Looking forward to your impresions of the Mjolnir especially as you have the Master-6 as well.
> 
> Will you be listening to it in your own system?


 
   
  Hopefully I cna get in early and hoook it up to my Ref 7.1
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Wont be using my usual computer or power outlet though so it still wont be 100% my usual system.


----------



## RedBull

drez said:


> I think Lehman BCL can be cloned really easily - very simple circuit with OPamp (there are clones on the market too lol), haven't heard any of these - maybe I can give some impression after local meet tomorrow.  I will hear the Mjolnir tomorrow as well.




Thanks, please help to share a little comparison with BCL with LCD-2.

Actually I don't mind simple design that can easily cloned or opamp as long as it sounds good to my ear. 

For me, BCL sound is very very detail, spacious, airy, timbre is very true to life, natural and smooooth. No lose bass here. It's a very good match for LCD-2. But in this hobby, the next question is always, can I get better than this?

I'm very familiar with the sound character of BCL, so if you could give a relative comparison to this, that will be really helpful.


----------



## drez

Quote: 





redbull said:


> Thanks, please help to share a little comparison with BCL with LCD-2.
> Actually I don't mind simple design that can easily cloned or opamp as long as it sounds good to my ear.
> For me, BCL sound is very very detail, spacious, airy, timbre is very true to life, natural and smooooth. No lose bass here. It's a very good match for LCD-2. But in this hobby, the next question is always, can I get better than this?
> I'm very familiar with the sound character of BCL, so if you could give a relative comparison to this, that will be really helpful.


 
   
  Sounds like I would like the sound of it as well - hopefully someone will have one at the meet tomorrow.


----------



## preproman

I would like to see a review of the Master 8.  Are there any out there?  I'm mostly interested in the sound sig of the amp, the noise floor / background noise.  Is the amp considered to be transparent or Colored?  I'm not interested in how much power it has.  I'm really looking for the sound quality of the amp.  Thinking this may be my next SS amp.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





preproman said:


> I would like to see a review of the Master 8.  Are there any out there?  I'm mostly interested in the sound sig of the amp, the noise floor / background noise.  Is the amp considered to be transparent or Colored?  I'm not interested in how much power it has.  I'm really looking for the sound quality of the amp.  Thinking this may be my next SS amp.


 
   
  I have the Master-6 not 8 but as far as I am aware they are identical except the Master-8 has a gain switch (someone correct me if I am wrong) and I can say that the Master-6 is neutral and very transparent which is what it was designed to be. I have never been more aware of differing production qualities than I am now.
   
  Also, what background noise!!  Although there are exceptions I would not expect or tolerate any noise or hiss of any sort on an expensive high quality SS amp.
  I have had the volume on max with the T1's and LCD's plugged in and can detect absolutely no noise via ACSS. Not tried via XLR but would expect the same.


----------



## preproman

Thanks nigeljames,
   
  How do you like the voulme control?  Does it operate like a step, every .5 dbs?


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Thanks nigeljames,
> 
> How do you like the voulme control?  Does it operate like a step, every .5 dbs?


 
   
  A bit strange at first to be honest, used to the good old rotery control, but now I have got use to it its absolutely fine and yes it operates as you describe. Easy to find the volume level you want.


----------



## RedBull

Referencing at A-Gd superb neutral DAC Ref. 7.1, I have a feeling I will also like Master 8, but who knows it has slight variation that I might not like.  Even Ref. 7.1 and NFB-2 have a slightly different sound.
   
  The only safer bet is by reading and reading many comparison, esp. with the amp I'm familiar with.  Usually I can get pretty accurate feeling by reading comparisons.
   
  I bought NFB-2 and Ref. 7.1 without any listening at all and yet  when I received it, I get 99% the sound that I thought it was.


----------



## Alanaudio

Hi, I'm hard to make a choice between LD MK6+ and master8 with LA7000. I like the clear and musical sound. Which one do you think fit better with la7000? And how is the difference between them?


----------



## FauDrei

Based on tube sound stereotypes and my understanding of "A-GD sound" - Master-8 would be "clear" and Little Dot MK VI+ would be "musical"... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  ...and that, of course, does not help you... sorry


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





alanaudio said:


> Hi, I'm hard to make a choice between LD MK6+ and master8 with LA7000. I like the clear and musical sound. Which one do you think fit better with la7000? And how is the difference between them?


 
   
  The Master-8 will control the bass better if thats an issue.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





alanaudio said:


> Hi, I'm hard to make a choice between LD MK6+ and master8 with LA7000. I like the clear and musical sound. Which one do you think fit better with la7000? And how is the difference between them?


 
  I've already written a comparison between those 2 amps with LA7000 & others in this thread. 
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/570722/audio-gd-master-5-6-8-balanced-head-amp-preamp/210#post_8216321


----------



## Alanaudio

Sorry, I haven't checked the next page when I replied.


----------



## customNuts

No worries, hope it helps. There both excellent balanced amps. Depends what your after but the edge imo goes to the M5/6/8.


----------



## Alanaudio

Nice review， now i decided the combination between DAC: ref7, YuLong d18,  NAD M51, and AMP between, master8, LDmk6+(with 5998)
  The reason i still can't make up my mind is that i want the sound to be like hi-end, but it's not worth to pay about the twice price for a little bit improvement. 
  And for the MK6+, even it is not in the same level as master8, i really like the look of it.
  Do you have any advice for the combination? Thanks


----------



## tim3320070

At this level, I'm not sure why you care about looks- the Master-8/ Ref-7 via ACSS will impress as it has everyone who has purchased it (or similar)- absolute clarity and black background that the recording is able to give (with sufficient speakers).


----------



## tme110

at this level, people are usually set for either SS or tubes.  AGD is the only non American amp producer that's caught my attention but I'm pretty sure the Master 8 is on a whole new level compared to the LD.  Plus, since you've asked about AGD in DAC threads, you do have the ACSS too.


----------



## drez

IMO AudioGD Ref/Master gear aims for transparency and neutrality, CustomNuts is probably the person who can best offer comparison between those components. If you are looking at the Ref 7.1 then the new Master 7 is worth considering as it has a revised digital board and new 32 bit USB input, if I were buying I would go for the Master 7. Sabre or PCM1704 (or AKM) will all offer benefit over Sigma Delta DAC's IMO. Another thing to consider is that while the Ref 7.1 has Incredible potential and transparency it seems to be very sensitive to changes in transport and even computer settings (even through my Audiophilleo 2 Purepower) which to me is a good thing as I find tweaking computer setting very interesting. Transparency is of course a double edged sword as it will keep you continuously hunting perceived flaws in the sound quality - and consistently I find that the rest of my gear is holding the Ref 7.1 and Master 6 back - which is a real testament to how transparent these components are.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





alanaudio said:


> Nice review， now i decided the combination between DAC: ref7, YuLong d18,  NAD M51, and AMP between, master8, LDmk6+(with 5998)
> The reason i still can't make up my mind is that i want the sound to be like hi-end, but it's not worth to pay about the twice price for a little bit improvement.
> And for the MK6+, even it is not in the same level as master8, i really like the look of it.
> Do you have any advice for the combination? Thanks


 
  If you want the best sound for your money, I would advise you to start with the best possible headphones within your budget and taste.
   
  I just listened to several top-of-the-line headphones and they were quite different in sound character and quality - much more different than DAC's and amps. To me HD800 is way too bright (too little bass and too much treble) and also sounded dry in the treble. The LCD-3 sounded too dark for my taste. I actually liked LCD-2 better than the twice as expensive Audeze headphone. The HE-6 sounded a little bright and the LCD-2 a little dark, but both were the closest to neutral of the bunch I heard.
   
  When I heard the Denon D2000 back-to-back with the HE-400, the HiFiMan simply crushed the Denon totally in almost about every aspect, but especially in transparency and resolution. Without having heard the modded D7000, I would expect either the HE-6, HE-500 or the LCD-2 to beat it by quite a margin. In other words, if you stick with your D7000, the headphone will be the limiting factor in your setup and choosing different amps and DAC's will be much less important.
   
  Sorry, but this is the (awfull) truth - well, at least in my experience.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





larshp said:


> If you want the best sound for your money, I would advise you to start with the best possible headphones within your budget and taste.


 
  Yep


----------



## Alanaudio

I have to agree with you at this point, d7100(d7000) is the low impedance headphone which is really hard for me to choose the combation compared to the popular and universal ones like lcd2 or HE6. Now I 'm quite regret for that.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





alanaudio said:


> I have to agree with you at this point, d7100(d7000) is the low impedance headphone which is really hard for me to choose the combation compared to the popular and universal ones like lcd2 or HE6. Now I 'm quite regret for that.


 
  If you like the sound and want to keep the headphone you already have, I understand very well. Then the task is to find an amp that matches it and perhaps DAC? Whatever - you will have most benefit from listening to it with your headphone to hear how it fares.
   
  If you want high end quality sound - and the headphone you have isn't in that league - then that's a different story. I think going for "very good" or "good enough" is a valid way of choosing audio gear also. Note that I am not saying that your headphone isn't high end, because I haven't heard it - only the D2000.
   
  If your headphone is very easy to drive, then the point in getting an amp delivering several Watts (like the Audio-gd Master 6 or 8) is less than if you have an orthodynamic headphone like the HiFiMan's or Audeze's. Such a powerful amp is both extremely big and heavy (about 12Kg or 25 pounds) and you will pay a lot of money in shipping fee for something that's not needed. If you on the other hand plan on maybe going for a heavy to drive headphone later, then it would make sense to go for it, to make sure that your amp will drive your next headphone. The Audio-gd amps are truly amazing sounding and will drive any (non-electrostatic) full size headphone you throw at it.


----------



## Alanaudio

Thanks, I have ordered reference10 from audio gd.


----------



## Solude

I'll be honest I've always wanted to try an Audio-GD amp but can't shake the feeling that Kingwa picks a case and then proceeds to fill out the circuit until its full edge to edge   And without actually hearing one, it's hard to know if its priced for high value or not.
   
  So for anyone who is happy with any of the Master 5/6/8 or even previous Phoenix... what did they dethrone?  I purchased my current Peak out of sheer curiosity with next to no thought that it could dethrone the B22 only to be pleasantly surprised.  Did any of you experience that with the Masters?


----------



## Currawong

The power supply takes up a lot of space. It's the reason you can turn the volume up to max and get zero hiss. I can say the Phoenix bested the Stacker II I had here, but then, that wasn't a commercial amp and each one was built differently, by hand.
   
  I like the Phoenix because I don't think about it -- I don't hear it or notice it. Other amps have always tended to impose themselves on the music in some way -- to make themselves known. The Phoenix never has.


----------



## Solude

I read that often.  What I'm really hoping for is someone to poke their head in and say... I got the Master 8 and sold my B22, GS-X, Dynahi the next day.  Anyone fit that description


----------



## lmswjm

About 3 years ago my Phoenix easily replaced my Rudistor RPX-33mkII


----------



## Solude

And the Master 6... where does it improve on your previous Phoenix?
   
  FYI beating a Rudi isn't bragging rights, his amps are pure garbage packaged to fool the senses.  That's coming from a former RP5.1 owner.  I bought into the hype train but didn't stay on the ride long.  But that's another thread   I mean seriously, the current 33 has 12dB gain but a 1Vrms output?  Even at unity gain it would run out of steam before the input /facepalm  And the listed power only happens into 1.4ohm.  Know of any headphones that low?  And $5 says it still uses a power resistor  and runs the case mounted FETs into deep bias to heat the crap out of the case to give the impression of high power while only putting out 20mW into the LCD-3.  Sigh.

   
  Sorry for the rant.  It bugs me when snake oil actually penetrates the market to become FOTM   Sort of like the DarkStar which if not for the massive empty space could fit in a 8x10 single case and not cost $3500.  Just saying   Compare the clone to the retail   That is both the amp and power supply of each of the two balanced channels.


----------



## Hooster

OMG, and I thought Rudi was the biz. Sure looks the part. Thanks for the honesty.


----------



## lmswjm

Master 6 and Phoenix are in 2 diff systems currently. M6 has the edge, but not in another class. The Phoenix is still amazing. Dead quiet, neutral and full sounding. What else would you want? I can't see myself ever selling it.


----------



## Solude

Thanks LM.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

I recently took delivery of m8 and using it as preamp with acss to m3 is major upgrade to phoenix as preamp with xlr. The only issue I am having is that the preamp button doesn't mute the speakers or headphones, they are both always active, which requires me to turn off m3 when I want to listen to headpones. This wasn't the case with the phoenix. Anyone else with this problem?


----------



## Hooster

Quote: 





boynamedsue said:


> I recently took delivery of m8 and using it as preamp with acss to m3 is major upgrade to phoenix as preamp with xlr. The only issue I am having is that the preamp button doesn't mute the speakers or headphones, they are both always active, which requires me to turn off m3 when I want to listen to headpones. This wasn't the case with the phoenix. Anyone else with this problem?


 
   
  Ouch. I think that is what the HP/Pre button should do.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

Just to clarify, both headphone and pre-amp is active when the button is pressed to "h" mode whereas the "p" mode turns off headphone out. Its a bit of an inconvenience when I want to switch back and forth from speakers to headphones without having to turn off the power amp (master 3).


----------



## tim3320070

This is standard- the ACSS is always "on". It's the same on my Master-5. It is silent with XLR however.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

I see. I guess this is something I'll have to live with since the ACSS sounds better in my system than XLR. I haven't tried any fancy XLR cables though.


----------



## Hooster

Just remember you are doing it in the name of sound quality.


----------



## BearMan

Hey guys！

Could Master 8 fully driver HE6 well ? How much percentage volume does it could really load HE6 ?

Harsh Harsh Harsh! I really hate the damn Harsh!

I heard LarsHP said that when provide power than enough will enhance the treble body of He6, is that mean Master8 could give me a smooth , exquisite and fully extension HE6 ? :rolleyes:


----------



## LarsHP

I don't recognize my statement. However, I think the Master-6 or -8 is very neutral and thus doesn't cover up for the extra treble energy the HE-6 has. I have modded my HE-6 darker to a more correct frequency response.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

Quote: 





hooster said:


> Just remember you are doing it in the name of sound quality.


 
   
  Oh man, some of the prices on cables is downright scary, but I do concede that cables make a difference. I'm just glad that there isn't any boutique ACSS cables to tempt me!


----------



## BoyNamedSue

Quote: 





bearman said:


> Hey guys！
> Could Master 8 fully driver HE6 well ? How much percentage volume does it could really load HE6 ?
> Harsh Harsh Harsh! I really hate the damn Harsh!
> 
> ...


 
   
  I listen on the louder side with volume ranging from 50 to 60 out of 99 on the Master 8 with HE-6's. I recall having to crank the volume up to 80 to 90 with the Phoenix.
   
  I think the Master 8 is far from harsh with the HE-6s, and has been the most neutral and least bright and fatiguing compared to my other amps: Duntonic Du-6i 300b amp, DIY First Watt F3, and NFB 10ES.
   
  However, I notice some sibilance even with the Master 8 but this could be that the HE-6 is revealing some flaws in the recording. The sibilance is sizzling on my F3, but less pronounced with the Master 8.
   
  In general, I have found the HE6's to be an unforgiving headphone with poor recordings, compared to my HD650 and LCD2. I can easily hear SQ differences between MP3, FLAC, and 24/96 resolutions. The great thing about the Master 8 is that it is flexible with all my headphones given the gain and power options.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





bearman said:


> Hey guys！
> Could Master 8 fully driver HE6 well ? How much percentage volume does it could really load HE6 ?
> Harsh Harsh Harsh! I really hate the damn Harsh!
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't think anyone is going to get any top flight Audio-gd amp to sound harsh unless it is fed a VERY harsh source or used in a system with a total lack of synergy.
   
  The Master-6 is very smooth and very extended in both directions so I would expect the Master-8 to be as well.


----------



## BearMan

You guys are quite persuasive...

KingWa , you should feel grateful for your have such great fans right here ！

OK.. that's it ! HE6 + Master7+Master8 = My invincible “678 combo” !

Chinese guys’math always better than you guys


----------



## rx7mark

Just curious if anyone has tried a Audion GD SA type DAC with the Master 5/6/8?
   
  Kingwa claims that the Master 8 will output perfect balanced even when inputs are SE.
   
  So a SA 1.32, SA-2, Ref 9 should work well with this amp.
   
  Any experience or thoughts?
   
  Mark


----------



## BoyNamedSue

Quote: 





bearman said:


> You guys are quite persuasive...
> KingWa , you should feel grateful for your have such great fans right here ！
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sounds like a killer combination. Maybe you can get a source with "5" or "9" in the name 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. It looks like a good time to purchase right now with the 5% discount.


----------



## LarsHP

If you prefer a bright sound signature rather than a dark one, then this is going to be as good as it gets. I say this because the HE-6 is bright no matter how many Watts it gets. The LCD-2 is a little dark. Chose what you like best.



bearman said:


> You guys are quite persuasive...
> KingWa , you should feel grateful for your have such great fans right here ！
> OK.. that's it ! HE6 + Master7+Master8 = My invincible “678 combo” !
> Chinese guys’math always better than you guys


----------



## BearMan

Actually , I spend much more time on HE6.

Frankly , LCD2 is always make me down although I still keep it and always expecting it will surprise me in the next system update ...

So this time is the last chance I give to it . When compare with LCD3 which is coming soon, I will make the choice 

All right....which one of these big boys will be the final champion ? My big toe never lies


----------



## BearMan

BTW I customized the Master 7 's CAST connections, I let KingWa to replaced the initial mini XLR into a pair of normal XLR and I will do the same to the Master 8 

So that I can use my Nordost Tyr XLR cable to improve the musical under fully CAST connection ,it just takes me about 30 dollars each，quite worth HA？

Actually It saved me a lot of money and will be a remarkable upgrade I believe ~

Again, Chinese can count


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





bearman said:


> You guys are quite persuasive...
> KingWa , you should feel grateful for your have such great fans right here ！
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Your going to be laughing. I had basically the same combo, Ref 7.1, Master 5 and it was highly versatile, musical yet quite neutral and made every can I had sing. (didn't try the he6 though) 
  Fantastic investment with an end game pre-amp to boot! I miss it.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





bearman said:


> BTW I customized the Master 7 's CAST connections, I let KingWa to replaced the initial mini XLR into a pair of normal XLR and I will do the same to the Master 8
> So that I can use my Nordost Tyr XLR cable to improve the musical under fully CAST connection ,it just takes me about 30 dollars each，quite worth HA？


 
  Absolutely. His upgrades are cheap. I always get what I'm buying rewired with OCC Nucleotide copper for only $30. Totally worth it imo especially if your spending $1000+.


----------



## BearMan

Gee...！

Don‘t bite！


----------



## BearMan

Yeah I do think so and I have a question for you guys abroad, if you guys want to upgrade KingWa's production

Do you shipping them back to China or just sell them then get a new one ?


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





bearman said:


> Gee...！
> Don‘t bite！


 
  I know I'm pretty.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





bearman said:


> Yeah I do think so and I have a question for you guys abroad, if you guys want to upgrade KingWa's production
> Do you shipping them back to China or just sell them then get a new one ?


 
  I simply sell them through head-fi. Usually to a local aussie due to shipping costs (if it's a big unit).


----------



## BearMan

Because his production upgrading fast , I wonder to know can they help customers to improve if that is possible 

No doubt , I dont worry about the Master7 gets into the situation ...because I think it is a highly complete DAC for pcm1704UK already.


----------



## BearMan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *customNuts* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## LarsHP

I have had the Burson Soloist amp for about two weeks and compared it to my Master-6 - primarily with the HE-6, but also with LCD-2 and UM Miracle(!) Surprisingly the Soloist drives the HE-6 excellently and there is not much difference. However when I did yet another comparison test, I discovered that the Audio-gd has both a slightly warmer AND better resolved midrange. This could at least partly be because the Soloist is single ended only and that the SE cable I used might be a little lean sounding. Nevertheless I definitely get a higher resolved and slightly warmer sound with the Audio-gd, which to me is a sign of higher sound quality. This is in direct comparison to the Burson Soloist, which Mike at Headphonia states is the best solid state amp he has heard.


----------



## tim3320070

3 R-core power supplies, gobs of filtering, alum. chassis, fully balanced- it seems to me that the Master-5/6/8 can't lose in it's price bracket (and up). Is it $500 better?


----------



## maguire

Hey Lars, how do the Miracles hold up with the Master6 , does it get hissy?


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Just a quick clarification question: does the Master series of amps run cooler than the Phoenix?  I would seriously look at replacing my Phoenix with a Master 8 if it runs cooler.
   
  TY in advance.
   
   
  Lord Bless,
  doug p.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





servinginecuador said:


> Just a quick clarification question: does the Master series of amps run cooler than the Phoenix?  I would seriously look at replacing my Phoenix with a Master 8 if it runs cooler.
> 
> TY in advance.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't know how hot the Phoenix gets but my Master-6 gets just barely warm after 3- 4 hours. The Master-8 is basically the same amp so should yield the same results.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





larshp said:


> I have had the Burson Soloist amp for about two weeks and compared it to my Master-6 - primarily with the HE-6, but also with LCD-2 and UM Miracle(!) *Surprisingly the Soloist drives the HE-6 excellently and there is not much difference. However when I did yet another comparison test, I discovered that the Audio-gd has both a slightly warmer AND better resolved midrange.* This could at least partly be because the Soloist is single ended only and that the SE cable I used might be a little lean sounding. Nevertheless I definitely get a higher resolved and slightly warmer sound with the Audio-gd, which to me is a sign of higher sound quality. This is in direct comparison to the Burson Soloist, which Mike at Headphonia states is the best solid state amp he has heard.


 
   
  So the Soloist is excellent and the Master-6 is super excellent with the HE-6's.
  The latter I totally agree with


----------



## LarsHP

There is no hiss, but I hear trafo hum when no music is playing. Don't know if it is the trafo in the amp or what. Will check this in the weekend. 



maguire said:


> Hey Lars, how do the Miracles hold up with the Master6 , does it get hissy?


----------



## LarsHP

tim3320070 said:


> 3 R-core power supplies, gobs of filtering, alum. chassis, fully balanced- it seems to me that the Master-5/6/8 can't lose in it's price bracket (and up). Is it $500 better?



Very difficult to say in terms of sound quality. In terms of build the Burson is nice and I like the looks better. The casing is also thick aluminum. However with the Master-6 you get a full size real preamp (which includes a remote and several in- and output's) and a much more powerful headphone amp. 

In terms of size, weight and amount of components, the difference is also because of a minimalist design philosophy (less is more) versus a "the more the better" (if I may interpret Kingwa's style like this) philosophy. Burson makes a point of their desingby emphasizing the low number of components in the signal path in their latest amp. If you don't need balanced connections and preamp functionality is secondary, then the Soloist is an excellent choice.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





larshp said:


> Very difficult to say in terms of sound quality. In terms of build the Burson is nice and I like the looks better. The casing is also thick aluminum. However with the Master-6 you get a full size real preamp (which includes a remote and several in- and output's) and a much more powerful headphone amp.
> In terms of size, weight and amount of components, the difference is also because of a minimalist design philosophy (less is more) versus a "the more the better" (if I may interpret Kingwa's style like this) philosophy. Burson makes a point of their desingby emphasizing the low number of components in the signal path in their latest amp. If you don't need balanced connections and preamp functionality is secondary, then the Soloist is an excellent choice.


 
  Less is more is fine with me but the price is more for less it seems.


----------



## customNuts

Ever since I heard the burson 160D, I have not been a big fan. Granted I haven't heard the soloist yet and I'm sure it's better, but the 160D was on a completely different level to the M5/6/8 imo. For the money, audio-gd eats it for breakfast. 
  The burson is not a bad amp at all, it is just very overpriced imo.
  Each to their own.


----------



## LarsHP

I don't think the Soloist is overpriced at all. The casing and finish is clearly a league above Audio-gd (in my opinion) and sound quality is almost as good as the Master-6 and the Burson is about two thirds of that one (and the Master-5 / -8). 

With the Audio-gd Master amps you get a lot of circuits and components for the money, certainly more than the Burson, but as I said earlier its two etirely different design philosophies. Bottom line it is how it sounds, not how many components there is in the box, which matters. And then there is how you like the looks and what you need in terms of connectivity, remote etc. Size could easily be an issue also. 



customnuts said:


> Ever since I heard the burson 160D, I have not been a big fan. Granted I haven't heard the soloist yet and I'm sure it's better, but the 160D was on a completely different level to the M5/6/8 imo. For the money, audio-gd eats it for breakfast.
> The burson is not a bad amp at all, it is just very overpriced imo.
> Each to their own.


----------



## LarsHP

double post


----------



## LarsHP

sorry - tripple post due to mobile - looked like it didn't submit


----------



## LarsHP

sorryyyy!


----------



## LarsHP

multiposts - sorry


----------



## elwappo99

I don't even know how to follow these posts! It's like LarsHP took a whole page  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The biggest complaint I had with a lot of the previous audio-gd hp amps I owned/heard was the neutral sound, almost to a fault. If there was a spectrum with warm tube amps on one side, and dead neutral SS on the other side, Audio-gd would set the SS extreme. The sound is very detailed, transparent and spacious, but it sounds pretty boring and not a very engaging sound. 
   
  My experiences puts the soloist warmer on this spectrum. It has a very up front presentation, but still maintains a much more coherent and smooth soundstage. Even though I would call it slightly brighter than neutral it still manages to be much more musical and smooth in the overall sound presentation.


----------



## nigeljames

I have always felt that Audio-gd amps have been able to combine neutrality & musicality extremely well.
  I thought that with the Roc and even more so with the Master-6, but neutrality is not what a lot of people want and if it isn't then it's unlikely to sound musical either.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





larshp said:


> I don't think the Soloist is overpriced at all. The casing and finish is clearly a league above Audio-gd (in my opinion) and sound quality is almost as good as the Master-6 and the Burson is about two thirds of that one (and the Master-5 / -8).
> With the Audio-gd Master amps you get a lot of circuits and components for the money, certainly more than the Burson, but as I said earlier its two etirely different design philosophies. Bottom line it is how it sounds, not how many components there is in the box, which matters. And then there is how you like the looks and what you need in terms of connectivity, remote etc. Size could easily be an issue also.


 
  My post was regarding the sound quality alone. I have no interest in which device has more or less parts, & it was based on the 160D not the soloist.


----------



## customNuts

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> I have always felt that Audio-gd amps have been able to combine neutrality & musicality extremely well.
> I thought that with the Roc and even more so with the Master-6, but neutrality is not what a lot of people want and if it isn't then it's unlikely to sound musical either.


 
  Exactly my thoughts. I can't stand dead flat, boring sound signatures and always go for musicality. Audio-gd in general bridge the line between faithful reproduction and musicality better than most imo. The ref 7.1 & M5 was an awesome sounding unit with amazing PRAT, bass and soundstage. Certainly not boring. Of course you could sway the sound sig to your tastes with your choice of cans.


----------



## tim3320070

this is why I pair my amp with richer sounding headphones and speakers


----------



## Lorspeaker

Just curious, anyone heard a difference between the stock-powercord vs your own aftermarket powercords on  the masters?
  ( as in increased musicality )
   
  Or is the power so well managed in the amp itself that the given stock powercord is adequate?


----------



## BournePerfect

I'm in-just ordered a Master 8 to pair with my Master 7 and HD 800 combo. Man this thread needs a revival!
   
  -Daniel


----------



## SoupRKnowva

I know its not a master 5/6/8, but i recently ordered myself a Master 1 to use with my Master 3 power amp and my speakers, i have pretty high hopes for its sound


----------



## BournePerfect

Nice, Soup. Kingwa says it's a better pre than the M8, which is getting high marks from those here using is with speakers. Should be a great time ahead for you. Those speakers burning in nicely for you?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Nice, Soup. Kingwa says it's a better pre than the M8, which is getting high marks from those here using is with speakers. Should be a great time ahead for you. Those speakers burning in nicely for you?
> 
> -Daniel


 
   
  Thats the reason i went with it. I was thinking someday i might have to get back into headphones, so i could spend the extra 200 bucks for the 8 instead of the 1, but i didnt want to take any hit on the pre amp sound quality at all. And ill have a ACSS rig end to end at least for the digital side, running a NFB 1.32 as a dac. I still think kingwa should make an ACSS balanced phono stage but i guess it isnt meant to be.
   
  I think most of the major changes have occured already to their sound, they sound really really nice. Though i havent been able to listen at all for the last week or so, since i sold my D2 to fund the turntable/Master 1 purchase. getting antsy waiting for the master 1 to arrive so i can start listening again. Since before i was running the D2 straight into the Master 3, i didnt need a pre, but with the turntable now, i needed one, which just made getting the table that much more money haha
   
  Edit: yeah people have been saying that his headphone amps make better preamps for quite a while now, even back in the pheonix days people said it wasnt a bad headphone amp, but that it was a state of the art pre amp, im pretty excited about it.


----------



## BournePerfect

Nice. If you get back into headphones, there are numerous people here who are getting great quality from speaker outs of various amps. I'd suggest an ortho or 300Ohm+ cans with what you have before deciding if you need a seperate headphone amp imo.
   
  Quick question: Would there be any forseeable problems using the M8 as a pre to my Leviathan (6-8 watts @ 8ohm) down the line? It will be an integrated, but would love to try the combo sometime I'm sure. It's just that you always hear of tube preamps to ss amps, but not the other way around-just wondering if there's any issues?
   
  -Daniel


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Nice. If you get back into headphones, there are numerous people here who are getting great quality from speaker outs of various amps. I'd suggest an ortho or 300Ohm+ cans with what you have before deciding if you need a seperate headphone amp imo.


 
   
  If i get back into headphones, itll be a pair of HD800s, and if thats the case, i think i would just make adaptors and run them off the XLR outputs on the back of the Master 1, sure it wouldnt be quite as good as the headphone out of the master 8, but as i said before, id rather than State of the Art pre with slighter lesser(for high impedance cans) headphone performance, than the other way around.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





souprknowva said:


> If i get back into headphones, itll be a pair of HD800s, and if thats the case, i think i would just make adaptors and run them off the XLR outputs on the back of the Master 1, sure it wouldnt be quite as good as the headphone out of the master 8, but as i said before, id rather than State of the Art pre with slighter lesser(for high impedance cans) headphone performance, than the other way around.


 
  Using XLR pre out to feed a HD800?
  As I have understood it, a high impedance headphone should have a lot of voltage swing (20-30 Volts) and the pre out won't have that - or am I wrong?


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





larshp said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Eh, the Master 1 can swing 19 volts out of its XLR pre outs, and its output impedance is only 10 ohms, it may not be quite as good as a master 8 would be, but im sure it would work just fine, specially considering the power supplies that kingwa always puts in his gear. Not to mention this is a pretty hypothetical situation, i dont anticipate actually doing it


----------



## BournePerfect

Well it outputs 19V off  the XLRs. But I was refering to conecting the HD800 off of the speaker taps of the Master 3. Either or I guess.
   
  -Daniel


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote: 





bourneperfect said:


> Well it outputs 19V off  the XLRs. But I was refering to conecting the HD800 off of the speaker taps of the Master 3. Either or I guess.
> 
> -Daniel


 

 i actually ran a set of HD800s off the Master 3 at a meet a couple weeks ago. Worked pretty well, but i bet that running them off the xlr outs of the pre would sound better. but again i doubt i will ever actually do either, im gonna be trying my darndest to not move in anywhere that i cant use my speakers.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

So my master 1 arrived today, and while i have no sources to plug into it currently, the thing is a work of beauty, and as a preamp it weighs more than most power amps do these days, what a monster!


----------



## tim3320070

Selling my Master-5 if anyone is interested- see link in my signature


----------



## bbbonthemoon

Anyone could give impressions on master 8? Looks very impressive on paper, but no users reviews available, and there are quite a few for sale after 2-3 months use only. Makes it hard to decide.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





bbbonthemoon said:


> Anyone could give impressions on master 8? Looks very impressive on paper, but no users reviews available, and there are quite a few for sale after 2-3 months use only. Makes it hard to decide.


 
   
  Have not got the Master-8 but have its predessesor the Master-6. All I can say is I love it  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I would expect the Master-8 to sound the same.
   
  Plenty of power, even for the HE-6's, sound excellent with all my phones. Stunning bass, detail and dynamics.
  IMO you won't get a better more versatile amp for the money.
   
  I don't know anybody who has had the Master-5/6/8 who has been disappointed.
  Very revealing of source to make sure your source is up to scratch.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





bbbonthemoon said:


> Anyone could give impressions on master 8? Looks very impressive on paper, but no users reviews available, and there are quite a few for sale after 2-3 months use only. Makes it hard to decide.


 
  The Master 8 is a Master 5 and 6 in one box. There is a button on the back where you select the output power which changes from the 5's output to the 6's output. This means that the M8 is comparable to either M5 or M6 according to the setting.
   
  I also have the M6, and I am hugely impressed by its SQ. Truely high end / reference level. Build like a tank. Heavy like a tank too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I would have liked to have the functionality of the M8 though:
  When using it as pre amp or with phones other than my HE-6 I would have prefered the lower gain and power ~ M5.


----------



## bbbonthemoon

Thanks for the impressions guys! I'm shopping for powerhouse amplifier, and my other options are Ron Samuels Dark Star and Cavalli Liquid Glass/Liquid Gold, both are more than twice the price(LAu x4 the price), thats why Master 8 looks so interesting. Any of you had a chance to compare Master 8 to any of these amps? Wondering if they worth the extra $.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





bbbonthemoon said:


> Thanks for the impressions guys! I'm shopping for powerhouse amplifier, and my other options are Ron Samuels Dark Star and Cavalli Liquid Glass/Liquid Gold, both are more than twice the price(LAu x4 the price), thats why Master 8 looks so interesting. Any of you had a chance to compare Master 8 to any of these amps? Wondering if they worth the extra $.


 
   
  I would not bother with the Dark Star given that it's a $1750 amp in a $1750 case.
   
  The Cavalli's could be nice but at their price they would need to be a hell of a lot better than the Master-8. Personally I doubt they are that much better if at all because in that price range there is only preferred not better a such.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





nigeljames said:


> I would not bother with the Dark Star given that it's a $1750 amp in a $1750 case.
> 
> The Cavalli's could be nice but at their price they would need to be a hell of a lot better than the Master-8. Personally I doubt they are that much better if at all because in that price range there is only preferred not better a such.


 
   
  Agreed on both points. The price points of those amplifiers is really starting to become excessive. I think they know their market and think they can pump out an amp like that and just run the prices up.
   
   
  Has anyone compared these amps to the Mjolnir?


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





bbbonthemoon said:


> Dark Star and Cavalli Liquid Glass/Liquid Gold


 
   
  DarkStar is a gain clone, just but a gain clone for $300 instead.  LG and LAu aren't powerful.  B22, GS-X mk2, Mjolnir and M8 are powerful.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





solude said:


> DarkStar is a gain clone, just but a gain clone for $300 instead.  LG and LAu aren't powerful.  B22, GS-X mk2, Mjolnir and M8 are powerful.


 
   
  Why isen't the LAu powerful?  I thought it was rated at like 6wpc into 50ohms or something like that..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I really don't know - I'm just asking.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote: 





solude said:


> DarkStar is a gain clone, just but a gain clone for $300 instead.


 
   
  Shhhhh, that's supposed to be a secret


----------



## Solude

Quote: 





preproman said:


> Why isen't the LAu powerful?  I thought it was rated at like 6wpc into 50ohms or something like that..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  550mW of it is class A.  8W of GS-X mk2 is class A.  GS-X mk2 costs $4K less.  Math, good stuff.


----------



## preproman

Power - not what kind of power.
   
  Class A or Class A/B 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  That really doesn't matter for the question I had.   It's still 6watts into 50ohms..
   
  I know the price is crazy and I would never....  Not being biased further into Class A is just the start...  So yes - your correct $4K less is a steal in comparison.  IMO anyway..


----------



## Solude

9W even but at AB.  Just saying at $6.5K... the least you can do is be pure class A.  To put it into perspective, your balanced B22 can swing ~15W pure class A into 50ohm.


----------



## Theogenes

Quote: 





elwappo99 said:


> Has anyone compared these amps to the Mjolnir?


 
   
  I'd be interested in this as well!


----------



## bbbonthemoon

Quote: 





solude said:


> DarkStar is a gain clone, just but a gain clone for $300 instead.  LG and LAu aren't powerful.  B22, GS-X mk2, Mjolnir and M8 are powerful.


 
   
  According to manufacturers: 
  LAu: 9W@50 Ohms
  LG: 6W@50 Ohms
  Mjolnir: 5W@50 Ohms
  B22: 5.6W@32 Ohms (3.5W@50 Ohms)
  GS-X MKII: Output Power 1 Watt (single ended), 2 Watts (balanced), not mentioned at what impedance


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





bbbonthemoon said:


> According to manufacturers:
> LAu: 9W@50 Ohms
> LG: 6W@50 Ohms
> Mjolnir: 5W@50 Ohms
> ...


 
   
  That's old info on the GS-X mk2.  The B22 can be configured many different ways.


----------



## mowglycdb

I have a question for people that have had  lots of Audio-GD equipment.
   
  I have the NFB-6 AMP and I'm considering upgrading to master 8 sooner or later, I know both aren't in the same league, but, ¿Have any of you noticed the audible differences between these amps? 
   
   I'm using monitors  and  Audeze LCD-2 (balanced cable) , source Audio-GD NFB-1.32 conected by ACSS.
   
  Thank you.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





mowglycdb said:


> I have a question for people that have had  lots of Audio-GD equipment.
> 
> I have the NFB-6 AMP and I'm considering upgrading to master 8 sooner or later, I know both aren't in the same league, but, ¿*Have any of you noticed the audible differences between these amps? *
> 
> ...


 
   
  I certainly hope so given the price difference. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I had the Roc before the Master-6 and felt it was in the same league as the Woo6se.
  The Master-6 is significantly better then the Roc especially in the bass,detail,dynamics and speed departments and that's before you use the HE6's


----------



## tim3320070

Going from the Roc to the Phoenix and now my Master-5, the biggest difference I hear is a wider soundstage- sounds come from behind more than just the sides if you understand but it's not exactly dramatic and unless you have money to burn, I would put it into music purchases or headphones personally


----------



## steve2151

Quote: 





mowglycdb said:


> I have a question for people that have had  lots of Audio-GD equipment.
> 
> I have the NFB-6 AMP and I'm considering upgrading to master 8 sooner or later, I know both aren't in the same league, but, ¿Have any of you noticed the audible differences between these amps?
> 
> ...


 
   
  I have Tim's old Reference 8 along with a Master 8 and there is a small but noticeable improvement over my SA-1/SA-31 stack. It's mostly the little things (slighter larger soundstage, quicker transient speed, and a bit more bass impact without rolling off the upper frequencies). 
   
  You'll notice a larger improvement in going from a mid-fi headphone to a flagship, but if you've got a preferred headphone, a better chain will get you that last 5%.


----------



## mowglycdb

Quote: 





steve2151 said:


> I have Tim's old Reference 8 along with a Master 8 and there is a small but noticeable improvement over my SA-1/SA-31 stack. It's mostly the little things (slighter larger soundstage, quicker transient speed, and a bit more bass impact without rolling off the upper frequencies).
> 
> You'll notice a larger improvement in going from a mid-fi headphone to a flagship, but if you've got a preferred headphone, a better chain will get you that last 5%.


 
   
   
  upgrading to LCD-3 would be wiser over  upgrading the amp then.  I'm missing more open/airyness and soundstage from the LCD-2.


----------



## LarsHP

Quote: 





mowglycdb said:


> upgrading to LCD-3 would be wiser over  upgrading the amp then.  I'm missing more open/airyness and soundstage from the LCD-2.


 
  If that's the case then keep away from the LCD-3!
   
  It has significantly LESS airyness than LCD-2. I tried them both side by side before buying, and to my surprise I actually liked the LCD-2 is better than the LCD-3 because of that. The LCD-2 is a somewhat dark sounding headphone, but the LCD-3 is simply too dark - in my opinion of course - just as I find the HD800 too bright. If you want the LCD-2 sound, but want more airyness then HE-500 or HE-6 would be closer I expect. Or if you want to keep the LCD-2 then get it balanced: either buy an aftermarket cable or simply solder off the standard plug and solder on a 4XLR. This of course makes the Master-8 (or maybe a used M5 og M6) interesting again, because they have (4XLR) balanced headphone output.


----------



## preproman

Quote: 





larshp said:


> If that's the case then keep away from the LCD-3!
> 
> *It has significantly LESS airyness than LCD-2.* I tried them both side by side before buying, and to my surprise I actually liked the LCD-2 is better than the LCD-3 because of that. The LCD-2 is a somewhat dark sounding headphone, but the LCD-3 is simply too dark - in my opinion of course - just as I find the HD800 too bright. If you want the LCD-2 sound, but want more airiness then HE-500 or HE-6 would be closer I expect. Or if you want to keep the LCD-2 then get it balanced: either buy an aftermarket cable or simply solder off the standard plug and solder on a 4XLR. This of course makes the Master-8 (or maybe a used M5 og M6) interesting again, because they have (4XLR) balanced headphone output.


 
   
  WOW
   
  You are the first person I've seen give an impression like this.   Maybe you had a veiled pair.  For me the LCD-3s did everything better than the LCD-2.2s


----------



## Solude

Simple misuse of the word OR listened to a veiled air.


----------



## LarsHP

The LCD-3 has less upper mids and treble (from about 1.5kHz to 12kHz), which I experience as less airy. The HD800 has too much in the higher frequencies and sound very airy, but too bright (to me).
   
  In short I don't like the LCD-3 because it is simply too dark sounding (to me). So even if it has a little more resolution in the mids, it doesn't help me because the tonality is way off (in my opinion).


----------



## SoupRKnowva

It was a good run with my master 1 and master 3 guys, i really like the sound of them both. Kind of wish i had gotten the chance to try running some hd800s straight off the xlr pre amp outputs as well. But alas, im selling both of them because i got orders to korea and i wont have space :/
   
  But alas, I'll be getting back into headphones because of it, so i guess there is always an upside!


----------



## mowglycdb

I little question, ¿will a NFB-6 do enough justice for a Audeze LCD-3  or should I get the master-8 before?


----------



## BournePerfect

Thead revival.
  
 Anyone compared the gsx mkii to the M5/6/8 yet?
  
 -Daniel


----------



## mowglycdb

I was actually thinking about the same thing,  I have the Audeze LCD-3, so I'm interested in M8's performance.


----------



## undersys

I've just dropped King-wa an emai labout the possibility of rack mounting the Master 8 and a remote control (hardware). Just after volume control via hardware, via a cable.
 Hopefully some good news, I am quite interested to hear how it goes with the LCD 3.


----------



## mowglycdb

And I bought it lol, hopefully I'll get it by the end of this week or the begining of the next.


----------



## undersys

Just keep in mind last week was pretty much a week long Holiday for China 

 I'll be putting in my order later. Did you get any modifications ?


----------



## mowglycdb

Nope, no modifications at all.    I've seen that there are people that don't believe in aftermarket power cables but.. in the audio-gd site is says it so it must be true xp
  
 1, Master-8 has extremely high fidelity; its SQ is neutral. It can show how good or how bad a recording or source is.
 2, It is better not to stack gear, if it's necessary to stack the Master-8 on top of other gear, place a peice of paper or other insulating material on top of the other gear, as the Master-8 has conductive aluminium feet.
*3, Attention must be given to matching suitable power and signal cables.*


----------



## RedBull

bourneperfect said:


> Thead revival.
> 
> Anyone compared the gsx mkii to the M5/6/8 yet?
> 
> -Daniel




Another bump for this question, very interested too.


----------



## ogodei

bourneperfect said:


> Thead revival.
> 
> Anyone compared the gsx mkii to the M5/6/8 yet?
> 
> -Daniel


 
  
  
 I have a master 8 on the way in, hope to compare it with Dubstep Girl's Mk2 at the Chicago meet next month.  Otherwise I'm on the waiting list for a Mk2 from the current batch but there's no estimated delivery date for that.
  
 On a related note, question for any current or former Master 5/6/8 owners:  the a-gd site states the units "undergo more than 100 hours of burn-in".  Given that, is there any benefit to additional burn in once I get the unit?  Can I skip it?  Any opinions from personal experience out there?


----------



## nigeljames

ogodei said:


> I have a master 8 on the way in, hope to compare it with Dubstep Girl's Mk2 at the Chicago meet next month.  Otherwise I'm on the waiting list for a Mk2 from the current batch but there's no estimated delivery date for that.
> 
> On a related note, question for any current or former Master 5/6/8 owners:  the a-gd site states the units "undergo more than 100 hours of burn-in".  Given that, is there any benefit to additional burn in once I get the unit?  Can I skip it?  Any opinions from personal experience out there?


 
 There are a hell of a lot of parts in the Master-8 so another 100+ hours is a good idea.


----------



## mowglycdb

Ogdei   it's usually more than 300 hours burn in with agd


----------



## elwappo99

ogodei said:


> bourneperfect said:
> 
> 
> > Thead revival.
> ...


 
  
  
 Would really be interested to hear your thoughts. If you can post in this thread please?


----------



## undersys

mowglycdb said:


> Ogdei   it's usually more than 300 hours burn in with agd


 
  
 wow..

 Will just leaving it ON be enough ? Or do you recommend playing something though it for 300hrs?


----------



## mowglycdb

Make that 400, playing music yes, the major changes happen before that ofcourse.   Wait... ¿Is this whole week a holiday in China?  BAW, guess I'll have to wait more time for recieving it.


----------



## undersys

Righto, something to keep in mind when I get mine.

  
 Last week was the Holiday  So you should be fine.


----------



## ogodei

elwappo99 said:


> Would really be interested to hear your thoughts. If you can post in this thread please?


 
  
 Will post.  Hopefully the GS-X will ship soon (this year?) so I can get time for a more in depth comparison.
  
  


mowglycdb said:


> Make that 400, playing music yes, the major changes happen before that ofcourse.   Wait... ¿Is this whole week a holiday in China?  BAW, guess I'll have to wait more time for recieving it.


 
  
 Wow, 400 hours?  I'm afraid the house will burn down if I leave the thing running for 17 days straight!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Mine was shipped Monday last week.  Anyone know DHL shipping times HK to the USA (Chicago) ?  I don't have a tracking number.


----------



## customNuts

ogodei said:


> I have a master 8 on the way in, hope to compare it with Dubstep Girl's Mk2 at the Chicago meet next month.  Otherwise I'm on the waiting list for a Mk2 from the current batch but there's no estimated delivery date for that.
> 
> On a related note, question for any current or former Master 5/6/8 owners:  the a-gd site states the units "undergo more than 100 hours of burn-in".  Given that, is there any benefit to additional burn in once I get the unit?  Can I skip it?  Any opinions from personal experience out there?


 
  
 I owned the M5. I would recommend 100+ hrs also. As mentioned there are so many parts in this beast, especially in the psu that would benefit from burn in imo. The first 50hrs will do the majority of it though.
 Great purchase btw - stunning amp & pre amp. My monitors never sounded so good as through the m5 preamp.


----------



## mowglycdb

ogodei said:


> Wow, 400 hours?  I'm afraid the house will burn down if I leave the thing running for 17 days straight!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Send a email to Kingwa asking for your tracking number, I've bought things before and it has taken less than 5 days to arrive at my country. So you should send that mail.


----------



## ogodei

I just heard from back from Grace there.  Apparently the amp was not shipped on Monday before the holiday, which frankly disappoints me a little because an earlier email from them assured me that it was.   Now Hong Kong customs is backed up due to the post-holiday influx so DHL is backed up, too.
  
 So, they shipped it yesterday via TNT and I now have a tracking number but no scheduled delivery date.  Perhaps it will show up after it clears US customs.
  
 The sweet joy of anticipation continues.


----------



## ogodei

Master 8 is now at 66 hours of burn in, about time to start listening.
  
 The unit came with a remote control and also with another set of internal electronics for the remote, packed in bubble wrap.  The finished remote didn't work but the separate set of electronics did, so i just swapped out the electronics in the chassis.
  
 I haven't seen this from a manufacturer before.  Anyone know if this is supposed to be a quality control thing, or do they use multiple sets of IR receivers and just throw in both transmitters?


----------



## LarsHP

I also got extra knobs and dials for my Ref. 7.1 DAC, that I haven't had any use for. So I expect they put extra components if something should be harmed during transport.


----------



## froger

ogodei said:


> Master 8 is now at 66 hours of burn in, about time to start listening.
> 
> The unit came with a remote control and also with another set of internal electronics for the remote, packed in bubble wrap.  The finished remote didn't work but the separate set of electronics did, so i just swapped out the electronics in the chassis.
> 
> I haven't seen this from a manufacturer before.  Anyone know if this is supposed to be a quality control thing, or do they use multiple sets of IR receivers and just throw in both transmitters?


 
 I faced the same issue when I got mine 7 months ago. If the remote only works solely for the amplifier, I don't understand why they should use multiple sets of IR, and in any way, it should definitely work for the set they send the remote together with. On top of that, the remote cover with the replacement electronic did not cover well, resulting in a small bulge and caused a little discomfort when holding the remote. While the amp is supposed to be value for money, the remote control just felt too DIY to me.


----------



## ogodei

Is this the same remote?
  

  
 Its certainly not elegant but I kind of like its "I can control your amp or chock your tires, all the same to me" rugged spirit.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Seems to work fine once the parts were swapped out.  I presume that in the case of the remote it's more cost effective to waste a percentage of boards that cost a few cents than it is to source and QC higher grade electronics.  I also presume this would not apply to the amplifier itself, seeing as warranty shipping costs would kill them.


----------



## froger

Just want to say, I have never gotten a faulty remote of any electonic device ever in my life before regardless of the price of that device, so i don't buy that cost-effective theory at all. Seriously, how long will it take or how much will it cost for Audio-gd to just test out the remote to make sure it works? Something that will probably take them a few minutes to settle, in the end cost me half an hour to figure out and fix the issue. I seriously hope they have much better customer service when it comes to servicing the amplifier.


----------



## mowglycdb

Lol I have the same problem, just tried the remote now, it doesn't work, though I don't care that much, it sounds terrific.


----------



## ogodei

froger said:


> Just want to say, I have never gotten a faulty remote of any electonic device ever in my life before regardless of the price of that device, so i don't buy that cost-effective theory at all. Seriously, how long will it take or how much will it cost for Audio-gd to just test out the remote to make sure it works? Something that will probably take them a few minutes to settle, in the end cost me half an hour to figure out and fix the issue. I seriously hope they have much better customer service when it comes to servicing the amplifier.


 
  
 Well, I have certainly received faulty electronic equipment before. Too often for comfort actually.  But I agree that shipping a non-functioning remote along with a replacement piece already in the box is a strange and somewhat disconcerting business practice. Which is why I posted originally. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 End of the day, I have a functioning amp and remote at a comparatively good price. And since Kingwa has a good reputation around here for service and quality I'm not going to worry too much about it.


----------



## drez

mowglycdb said:


> Lol I have the same problem, just tried the remote now, it doesn't work, though I don't care that much, it sounds terrific.


 
  
 Have you tried changing battery?


----------



## mowglycdb

I will soon.

 Has anyone tried to change the power modes?   I changed it and didn't notice any difference in volume with my Audeze LCD-3. So I was wondering if the following image is swapped or if it's swapped in my unit. ¿Does the gain switch do something when you're connected by ACSS? If it's doesn't then it would logic to expect the switches are swapped.


----------



## LarsHP

There is no gain in ACSS except for the volume control AFAIK. Gain switches are for XLR and RCA connections.


----------



## mowglycdb

larshp said:


> There is no gain in ACSS except for the volume control AFAIK. Gain switches are for XLR and RCA connections.


 
  
 So the switches are inverted I see, thanks. ¿Does the LCD-3 sound better on high power mode?


----------



## LarsHP

I can't tell how the switches are done because I have the Master 6. 

Can't say if LCD-3 benefit from the extra power. You'll have to test and hear for yourself. Low power should be enough considering it's sensitivity, but I haven't tried it myself.


----------



## ogodei

mowglycdb said:


> I will soon.
> 
> Has anyone tried to change the power modes?   I changed it and didn't notice any difference in volume with my Audeze LCD-3. So I was wondering if the following image is swapped or if it's swapped in my unit. ¿Does the gain switch do something when you're connected by ACSS? If it's doesn't then it would logic to expect the switches are swapped.


 
  
  


mowglycdb said:


> So the switches are inverted I see, thanks. ¿Does the LCD-3 sound better on high power mode?


 
  
 The switch labels on the photo are correct.  Measuring with a Beyer T1, I get a 7dB bump on the XLR inputs moving from Low to High gain.
  
 Haven't measured the power output changes but moving from low to high power (even after the obligatory 10 second shut down) causes the amp to shut down using some cheap 45 ohm phones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## mowglycdb

ogodei said:


> Haven't measured the power output changes but moving from low to high power (even after the obligatory 10 second shut down) causes the amp to shut down using some cheap 45 ohm phones
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Give it a try please, cause I didn't notice anything  with my LCD-3  that's  91dB/mW


----------



## Ryukun

Wow looks awesome!


----------



## mowglycdb

larshp said:


> I can't tell how the switches are done because I have the Master 6.
> 
> Can't say if LCD-3 benefit from the extra power. You'll have to test and hear for yourself. Low power should be enough considering it's sensitivity, but I haven't tried it myself.


 
  
 Well Master 6 would be a Master 8 on high power right?
  
 What volume do you use  for loud listening with the LCD-2?


----------



## LarsHP

Yes, basically a Master 6 is a Master 8 on high gain AFAIK.
  
 I don't think it will help you to know what volume setting I use with LCD-2 for loud listening since it varies quite a lot from album to album. Also from listener to listener it will vary quite a lot: Some may find 80dB loud and others will think it's normal and that it should be 90-95dB to be loud. Sorry I can't help you there.


----------



## mowglycdb

that's too bad :s.  Don't confuse high gain with high power it's a different thing, there are both switches for gain and for power on the Master 8. In the tests I have made, neither switches affect the volume I get from my LCD-3, so I'm not sure if the power switch is even working.
  
 I was asking what volume is loud for you on the Master 6 in the 0-70 scale


----------



## LarsHP

You could simply check it by testing SPL at a very high volume setting and see if there's a difference with high and low power settings. Don't put the headphones on - just listen from a distance - or you might damage your hearing.
  
 (You are right: I meant high power, not high gain.)


----------



## mowglycdb

I'm gonna give that I try, but I have already tried it at 35/70  with no notable difference.


----------



## ogodei

mowglycdb said:


> I will soon.
> 
> Has anyone tried to change the power modes?   I changed it and didn't notice any difference in volume with my Audeze LCD-3. So I was wondering if the following image is swapped or if it's swapped in my unit. ¿*Does the gain switch do something when you're connected by ACSS?* If it's doesn't then it would logic to expect the switches are swapped.


 
  
  


larshp said:


> *There is no gain in ACSS except for the volume control AFAIK. Gain switches are for XLR and RCA connections.*


 
  
 To make sure you're clear, if you are connecting your DAC to the amp via the ACSS connections the gain switch will NOT effect your volume output.  Lars HP is correct on this: the gain switch ONLY affects sources coming in via XLR and RCA.  The switch is useful primarily if your source is providing a very low voltage signal for some reason.
  
 The power should not affect volume, just provide more power for the phones to draw.  I'm not sure what phones would need the higher power, would like to learn more about that myself.
  
 Your final volume setting in the m8 will depend on multiple things including the phones, the gain setting, the DAC output volume, the source media volume, etc.  Depending on how I output from my DAC I can get the same dB output levels by setting the m8 at "65" or at "8".    So knowing what someone else's final volume level is doesn't tell you much about your own setup.


----------



## mowglycdb

I have a test (sonic generations on steam really sounds low) where I can put 70/70 and I have it on high power, it still sounds louder from my NFB-6 at max volume. I don't really get it maybe someone else could enlighten us?


----------



## LarsHP

ogodei, I think you are right!
  
 I forgot that the volume control is before the amp section. This means that it's only if the amp is driven beyond it's limit (1.8W in 50 Ohm in low setting) and clip at peaks that you will hear it - while in high power mode it won't clip unless the peaks exceed 7W in 50 Ohm.
  
 With your LCD-3 (91dB at 1 MILLIWATT) headphone I don't think it will be a problem even at loud listening levels when the amp is in "low power" mode. The high power option is only for HiFiMan HE-6 (measured 77.5dB sensitivity) and the old AKG K1000 headphones (spec'd 74dB).


----------



## ogodei

My bet is an interaction with the volume control on the NFB-6.  I don't understand all the tech on the audio-gd site about volume in NFB-6, but the output might be high filtered via ACSS when in'headphone amp model' as they describe it.  Or something. 
  
 I can guarantee you the amp can play very loud if its getting the correct signal.   Try the XLR or RCA connections and see if that makes a difference.


----------



## LarsHP

mowglycdb said:


> I have a test (sonic generations on steam really sounds low) where I can put 70/70 and I have it on high power, it still sounds louder from my NFB-6 at max volume. I don't really get it maybe someone else could enlighten us?


 

 Here you are mixing gain and power. You should get an album with high levels and then turn up the volume untill you hear distortion from the amp clipping (in low power mode). Then switch to high power mode and play at the same volume level. Now the distortion/clipping should be gone.


----------



## mowglycdb

New test: Foobar playing a loud mp3 song.
  
 DAC: NFB-1.32  1,2+1,2MA (ACSS)
  
 Amp:
  
 NFB-6 : rated  4500 mW /  50 Ohm       Max volume: 79      
  
 Audio-GD Master 8: rated  High power 7000mW 50 Ohm/Low power 1800mW 50 Ohm       Max volume: 70
  
 Result:
  
 NFB-6 was louder in about 3dB. In both cases I couldn't detect a diference between the SPL of High and Low Power in Master 8. I didn't detect clipping in any case.
  
 Conclusion:
  
    If the bottle neck was the low power from the DAC, I would have heared the same SPL from both amps, so yeah I'm clueless. Though from 1800mW (Master 8 low power) to 4500mW (NFB-6), Could it explain the difference in SPL? or does the NFB-6 Have more gain?
  
 I'm planning to do tests with the HE-6 so maybe my DAC is the bottle neck? I suppose that the bigger DACs that output 2 +2MA (ACSS) would make a difference.


----------



## LarsHP

Yes. What you are experiencing here is the difference in gain, not power.


----------



## Kingwa

The Master 8 setting on 99 steps volume have boost the gain + 6DB.
 In the XLR connect model, the Master 8 can setting the gain on rear to boost another 6DB.
 Total boost +12DB which is may have different in test.


----------



## mowglycdb

Thank you, yeah, I guess the signal(usb) isn't strong enough to take all the advantage of the Master 8.


----------



## LarsHP

Signal strength is basically gain. Power is the highest output without clipping (and needs enough gain to be reached). With your LCD-3 you probably won't need more power than what the Master 8 is capable of in low power mode. Even my HE-6 doesn't need it unless you play very, very loud.


----------



## ogodei

larshp said:


> Signal strength is basically gain. Power is the highest output without clipping (and needs enough gain to be reached). With your LCD-3 you probably won't need more power than what the Master 8 is capable of in low power mode. Even my HE-6 doesn't need it unless you play very, very loud.


 
  
 LarsHP, can you think of _any_ headphone that would need that much power at lower volumes?  Is it just esoteric or professional monitor grade stuff?


----------



## LarsHP

The short and truthful answer is a big NO. Even the HE-6 "only" needs 20mW to reach 90dB. A headphone with a low sensitivity of about 90dB/mW (LCD-2, LCD-3 and HE-500) really don't need an amp with more than 1.5 - 2W. My Burson Soloist is in that range power wise and it drives even HE-6 beautifully. It may in extreme situations need more gain and power, but for sensible listening conditions it is sufficient. IMO of course.


----------



## ogodei

Yeah, I'm with you.  Sort of like a V-8 engine in a matchbox car.
  
 This thing is solid though.  No nuance to it really, it just presents everything very cleanly.  Going to do some listening tests against the GS-X Mk II in a few weeks, want to see if this can match it.


----------



## LarsHP

Oh! Please post your findings here. It would be interesting to know how the Audio-gd Master amp fares against the GSX MkII.


----------



## joyway

Master 9 is anounced to replace master 8


----------



## M-13

Wow Cool, Master 9.
  
 What's the difference? Is it just the back layout and the volume control is better now?


----------



## customNuts

I wonder how much better it sounds than the M5/M6/M8? I do miss my M5......


----------



## RedBull

Does anybody knows the output power for 50 ohms single ended?
What's written in the website is only for balanced output.


----------



## nigeljames

Normally half the balanced output as you are basically using half the amp.


----------



## ogodei

m-13 said:


> Wow Cool, Master 9.
> 
> What's the difference? Is it just the back layout and the volume control is better now?


 
  
 Front Layout and remote look exactly the same.  On the back they added a volume bypass button and a hard button to retain volume memory (feature is available in the menu of the Master 8)
  
 Looks like there's a single power profile for the 9, where the Master 8 has a switch to go from "low" to "high" power profile.  The output on the 9 is higher than the "high" profile on the 8:
  
 Master 8:
 50 ohm:   7000MW
 100 ohm: 3500MW
 300 ohm: 1200MW
 600 ohm:   600MW
  
  
 Master 9:
 40 ohm:   9000MW
 100 ohm: 3800MW
 300 ohm: 1250MW
 600 ohm:   630MW
  
 Uhhhh, that's a lot of power.  I cant even get off the "Low" setting with the master 8.


----------



## M-13

ogodei said:


> Front Layout and remote look exactly the same.  On the back they added a volume bypass button and a hard button to retain volume memory (feature is available in the menu of the Master 8)
> 
> Looks like there's a single power profile for the 9, where the Master 8 has a switch to go from "low" to "high" power profile.  The output on the 9 is higher than the "high" profile on the 8:
> 
> ...


 

 Good Summary. The power is just slight more than the 8 I guess... but I love it. Man... 9W of Class A into my HE-500 would be delcious. My current amp does 10.5W, but it's class A/B and built from much lower quality components.
  
 I think the Master 9 will be my end game. I'll buy the HE-6 and either an LCD-3 or the new LCD-X and be done. I'm thinking either Anedio D2 or the Yulong DA8 for the source upgrade...
  
 Man that's a lot of money I'm spending...


----------



## LarsHP

9W in 40 Ohm is the same as the Master 6, which I think basically is a Master 8 in high power mode. However, the M9 does have more power in 100 Ohm.


----------



## RedBull

n





nigeljames said:


> Normally half the balanced output as you are basically using half the amp.




Hmm, thanks but I don't think so, it could be less than half somehow. Hope Kingwa post the se power output on his website.


----------



## customNuts

I asked Kinwga the differences between the M8 & M9 and here it is:
  
 "The Master 9 is improve the headphone output.
 The output power is slight increase, but pure class A output is the point.
 In sound , the Master 9 have slight better than the Master 8 in headphone output, XLR/ RCA preamp output , and same level on the ACSS output.
 The sound is slight richer than the Master 8 in mid and low frequency.
 Kingwa"
  
 Yummy! I want it.


----------



## customNuts

m-13 said:


> Good Summary. The power is just slight more than the 8 I guess... but I love it. Man... 9W of Class A into my HE-500 would be delcious. My current amp does 10.5W, but it's class A/B and built from much lower quality components.
> 
> I think the Master 9 will be my end game. I'll buy the HE-6 and either an LCD-3 or the new LCD-X and be done. I'm thinking either Anedio D2 or the Yulong DA8 for the source upgrade...
> 
> Man that's a lot of money I'm spending...


 
 When I tried out my Master 5 with my Yulong D18, it was a match made in heaven. When I bought my DA8, it was a clear jump up in performance from the D18. I have recommended to several people the DA8 & M8 (now M9) as an end game pairing - serious synergy. Its exactly what I would have kept if If I didn't have the D8 & A8 coming from yulong.
 I still might get the M9 as a second amp for the D8 - if I can swing it.


----------



## M-13

customnuts said:


> When I tried out my Master 5 with my Yulong D18, it was a match made in heaven. When I bought my DA8, it was a clear jump up in performance from the D18. I have recommended to several people the DA8 & M8 (now M9) as an end game pairing - serious synergy. Its exactly what I would have kept if If I didn't have the D8 & A8 coming from yulong.
> I still might get the M9 as a second amp for the D8 - if I can swing it.


 

 Cool Man! Thanks for the confirmation. I think M9 + DA8 will be my personal end game. I'll probably get the HE-6/LCD-3 and then just be done for a while.


----------



## nigeljames

redbull said:


> n
> Hmm, thanks but I don't think so, it *could be less than half somehow*. Hope Kingwa post the se power output on his website.


 
  
 Why?
  
 It has been stated before that power is approximately halved when a balanced Audio-gd amp is used with unbalanced phones.
  
 So unless something has changed.....


----------



## i019791

nigeljames said:


> Why?
> 
> It has been stated before that power is approximately halved when a balanced Audio-gd amp is used with unbalanced phones.
> 
> So unless something has changed.....


 
 The specs of NFB-10.33 at the AGD site indicate that the "half" hypothesis is incorrect


----------



## mowglycdb

Why didn't I wait a month...  xD, I doubt there will be impressions of Master-8 vs Master-9. I wonder what I'll be missing in this headphone output improvement :C


----------



## lmswjm

I couldn't resist bugging Kingwa about sonic improvements over my Master 6:
  
 Dear Bill,
 The Master 9 is pure class A amp.
 Its sound is a little richer on low and mid  .
 In my mind the Master 6 don't want upgrade to the Master 9, the different not much, but the used master 6 sale price is much different to the new Master 9.
 Kingwa


----------



## joyway

lmswjm said:


> I couldn't resist bugging Kingwa about sonic improvements over my Master 6:
> 
> Dear Bill,
> The Master 9 is pure class A amp.
> ...


 
 wow, Kingwa is very honest!


----------



## RedBull

i019791 said:


> The specs of NFB-10.33 at the AGD site indicate that the "half" hypothesis is incorrect




Yup, see compass spec www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1033/NFB10.33EN_Specs.htm
The output at se is not remotely half of balance output. Don't ask me why though.

Oops, sorry, I meant nfb 10.33


----------



## LarsHP

lmswjm said:


> I couldn't resist bugging Kingwa about sonic improvements over my Master 6:
> 
> Dear Bill,
> The Master 9 is pure class A amp.
> ...


 

 Thanks! I really like to hear that ...


----------



## M-13

How is the HE-6 with the Master 6/8/9?
  
 Can it drive it to potential?


----------



## drez

m-13 said:


> How is the HE-6 with the Master 6/8/9?
> 
> Can it drive it to potential?




With acss input my master 6 would clip. Better off with a speaker amp or the precision 1 imo.


----------



## nigeljames

drez said:


> With acss input my master 6 would clip. Better off with a speaker amp or the precision 1 imo.


 
  
 Really!
  
 I could not get mine to clip even if I try.
  
 On some recordings that have a low output I have got to 60-65 out of 70, which is too loud to listen to for more than a few minutes (at most, often a few seconds) and there is absolutely no sign of clipping. In fact it shows no sighs of stress at all at anywhere near max output.
  
 You must listen very loud!


----------



## mowglycdb

He's probably using the exponencial volume control that adds 6dB, that might explain the clipping.


----------



## drez

nigeljames said:


> Really!
> 
> I could not get mine to clip even if I try.
> 
> ...




Would happen to me on certain tracks even dynamically compressed ones. Hannibal soundtrack seemed to trigger it. I don't play very loud, I'm not sure why it clipped, just that it doesn't clip with hd800.


----------



## nigeljames

drez said:


> Would happen to me on certain tracks even dynamically compressed ones. Hannibal soundtrack seemed to trigger it. I don't play very loud, I'm not sure why it clipped, just that it doesn't clip with hd800.


 
  
 Did you try using XLR connections on the same tracks?
  
 The output is higher on XLR so lower volume would be required.


----------



## LarsHP

I have never had my HE-6 clip with my Master 6 regardless of input path...
 Master 6 seems to have almost limitless power.
  
 For the HE-6 to clip with 7 Watts you are exceeding at least 115dB (if you are conservative and use the measurement from Inner Fidelity) or even 121dB (if you go by HiFiMan's spec's). That's incredibly loud. 
  
 Even with my Burson Soloist which only gives about 1.7 Watts in 50 Ohm, I have never heard any clipping.
  
 If you get (got?) clipping with Master 6, then I would expect that either something's not right with the amp - or that you listen at extremely, ear-damaging loud levels.


----------



## LarsHP

m-13 said:


> How is the HE-6 with the Master 6/8/9?
> 
> Can it drive it to potential?


 

 In my opinion the answer is a BIG yes.
  
 Master 5 is much lower powered, and would probably still be nice, but might not have the headroom or power to blast your ears


----------



## staalf

Hello I am Frans from the Netherlands and new to this forum although I read the forum every day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Maybe you guys can help me out.
  
 Last year I started with my hobby again. I bought an Violectric v200, an Audio GD Reference DAC and a Denon D7000.
  
 I am planning to buy a Master 8 or 9 by Christmas.
  
 I wonder however of the Master 8 or 9 (Class A 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) can drive the Denon (25 ohm) or simply blow it up.
  
 Hope to hear from you and sorry for my terrible English in advance.


----------



## mowglycdb

Master-8 is discontinued. No it won't blow it up, the master 9's output is 1 ohm if your earphones are more than 10 ohms lol, they should be good. PD: Plus the new Super exponencial volume control should help with more sensitive headphones, though don't think about using iems on it xp


----------



## staalf

That is great. Thank you for your quick answer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I also thought about Icon Audio, but now it will be a Master 9 for sure.


----------



## joyway

staalf said:


> That is great. Thank you for your quick answer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Wow, I'm considering Master 9 too...


----------



## staalf

joyway said:


> Wow, I'm considering Master 9 too...


 

 I heard the Master 5 in the Netherlands in the house of another forum member. It was a whole new world for me. If the Master 9 is the same league or better, then I will be extremely happy.
 I heave to wait till Christmas gratification though.


----------



## mowglycdb

Slightly better as stated from king-wa  richer in the mid a lower band, with headphone out and XLR/RCA and the same out of the ACSS conection.


----------



## LarsHP

Master 8 and 9 is basically a Master 5 and 6 in one box AFAIK. Master 5 is powerful and Master 6 is super powerful.


----------



## M-13

I doubt anyone can give me a answer, But how would the Precision 1 compare?
  
 Will it even get somewhat close to the performance or not even a chance?


----------



## sayh

m-13 said:


> I doubt anyone can give me a answer, But how would the Precision 1 compare?
> 
> Will it even get somewhat close to the performance or not even a chance?


 
 Interesting, i have been wanting to know as well, how master 8/9 does against precision 1, on HE-6.


----------



## victorcc

I asked Kingwa a few weeks ago. This is what he replied:

_Dear Victor,

The Precision 1 is not balanced design, so its slight warmer than the Master 8, we have consider it is low range gear so we design reduce the odd distortion but keep slight even distortion for sound smooth.

The power of course can drive the HE6. Its noise is very low.

The normal sensitivity headphone can't hear the noise on listen volume.

Kingwa_


----------



## drez

Hmm I really wan't to get M9 - the OCC wiring and pure class A operation appeal to the irrational audiophile within.


----------



## ogodei

victorcc said:


> I asked Kingwa a few weeks ago. This is what he replied:
> 
> _Dear Victor,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Master 8 \ 9 can power the HE6 just fine, listened to it on the Master 8 last week.  Dubstep Girl swears the HE6 still has more potential than what she was hearing on it but couldn't state what amp would bring it out, other than a recommendation for speaker amps.


----------



## LarsHP

I think a direct comparison would be needed. My "super duper" speaker amp doesn't drive it better than my M6.


----------



## ogodei

Agreed.


----------



## RedBull

Made me want to try what the fuzz with this he6.


----------



## mowglycdb

It's released today, I wonder if anyone from here have pre-ordered it already.


----------



## staalf

mowglycdb said:


> It's released today, I wonder if anyone from here have pre-ordered it already.


 

 I wish, but have to wait till my Christmas gratification 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 When it is then I order directly. Can't wait!


----------



## mowglycdb

Bumps, anyone that pre-orded Master-9 it should be recieving it or have recieved it today


----------



## staalf

staalf said:


> I wish, but have to wait till my Christmas gratification
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have just ordered the Master 9 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I don't know when I will receive it. When I do I will connect it and I can compare it with my Violectric V200.
  
 I will know counting the days.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

You are lucky. I have the m8. And I am trying not buy yhe m9. Enjoy. The m8 drives all my headphones very we'll , even the HE6. 

Al D


----------



## staalf

alrainbow said:


> You are lucky. I have the m8. And I am trying not buy yhe m9. Enjoy. The m8 drives all my headphones very we'll , even the HE6.
> 
> Al D


 

 I feel lucky indeed.
  
 I have heard the Master 5 or 6, don't remember exactly, at home by a dutch member of Head-Fi. I was blown away. I have save money for a year and now I can finally buy one.
  
 I am trilled.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

You should be I have the M7/M8 combo. . Kingwa ,s stuff is just superb . It's a shame he equipment does not get the publicity like others do. I tell people about audio gd and most people know of it , but with no advertising I just get the looks like I am buying something from a vacuum store . I also own a ref10.32. My first taste of him. All good . Enjoy.

What dac you are using ??


----------



## staalf

I have bought the Audio-GD Reference 7 + USB / Coaxial converter second hand. At that point it was connected with master 5/6.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Sabre dac right


----------



## staalf

alrainbow said:


> Sabre dac right


 

 Nope. It is the one with PCM1704UK Chips.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

ok i know that one, that's close to the m7 I have . great dac man. there is something about that dac that is very appealing to me.
  
 AL D


----------



## Clemmaster

A comparison of Reference 10.32 and M7/M8 combo would be HIGHLY appreciated here!
 How is the voicing between the 2? Is the Ref 10 darkish (like the Ref 5.32) and the M7/M8 more neutral?
 How about dynamics, definitions and all the technical aspect of the sound?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Well I have them but I really wanted someone here to have a post of them. To me they are close in the type of sound sig.

But the overall performance is going to the m7. It is more engaging closer to the music, but not edgy . I just ordered from kingwa the I2S conversion kit . So I can use my off ramp with it . I be leave it will get it closer to the m7. 
I have 4 dacs in that price range. The M7/ref10.32/mytek and the Pwd mkii. Audio gd 1704 chips is great with headphones. But the Pwd mkii is great with speakers and last would be the mytek. I guess once I get the kit I will bring it to my office and compare to the ref 10.32 dac. 

Al. D


----------



## staalf

staalf said:


> I have just ordered the Master 9
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have received the mail that the Master 9 is ready for shipment.
 May be tomorrow I will have a tracking number. Can't wait.
  
 Is there anybody who already received their Master 9??


----------



## mowglycdb

You'll recieve it before Friday 6th (if it was by UPS).
  
 I have the master 8 and I'd advise you to let the Master 9 heat up well before evaluating it's performance, it works much better if it's heated ( Has much more impact than burn in, I haven't noticed much difference with burn in but it may be sounding smoother) YMMV.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I can concur with MO in this , they Are like tube amps in this regard maybe 20 mins or so to be at there best.


Al D


----------



## M-13

If I had the Master 9 they would never get turned-off... LOL


----------



## mowglycdb

alrainbow said:


> I can concur with MO in this , they Are like tube amps in this regard maybe 20 mins or so to be at there best.
> 
> 
> Al D


 
 20 min?
  
 I noticed they sound better as it gets hotter haha.Till the point it's close to burning your hands.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Maybe so lol, mine are stacked with 4 inches of space between them hence the fans. Anyway the fans were off and I forgot they were on , about two hours man they were HOT .. 

Al D


----------



## DarknightDK

staalf said:


> I have received the mail that the Master 9 is ready for shipment.
> May be tomorrow I will have a tracking number. Can't wait.


 
  
 Great stuff. Looking forward to your impressions on the Master 9. From what I've read, it seems like a very promising amp indeed.


----------



## DarknightDK

To those who own the Master 5/6/8/9, what are your thoughts in relation to the amplifier's capabilities in terms of detail retrieval, resolution and microdynamics?
  
 In other words, is the amplifier capable of bringing out the utmost micro detail found in good quality recordings that are presented clearly and within their own space (assuming all source equipment have such capabilities)?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I do not know anyone who owns the m9 yet , but I do own the m8. And I think it is very detailed great stuff .dead black background . And enough power for all my headphones , including the he6 .

Al D


----------



## BournePerfect

m-13 said:


> If I had the Master 9 they would never get turned-off... LOL


 
  
 Until the next power bill arrives. 
  
 -Daniel


----------



## LarsHP

darknightdk said:


> To those who own the Master 5/6/8/9, what are your thoughts in relation to the amplifier's capabilities in terms of detail retrieval, resolution and microdynamics?
> 
> In other words, is the amplifier capable of bringing out the utmost micro detail found in good quality recordings that are presented clearly and within their own space (assuming all source equipment have such capabilities)?


 

 a BIG YES to all ...


----------



## nigeljames

darknightdk said:


> To those who own the Master 5/6/8/9, what are your thoughts in relation to the amplifier's capabilities in terms of detail retrieval, resolution and microdynamics?
> 
> In other words, is the amplifier capable of bringing out the utmost micro detail found in good quality recordings that are presented clearly and within their own space (assuming all source equipment have such capabilities)?


 
  
  
 Absolutely Yes


----------



## ogodei

+1


----------



## RedBull

Are you all connecting m8/9 to headphone in balance mode?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I am .

Al D


----------



## ogodei

redbull said:


> Are you all connecting m8/9 to headphone in balance mode?


 
  
  
 I switch between balanced 4 pin and the unbalanced depending on the phones.  My T1 and HD800 are stock cables.


----------



## RedBull

So which phones do you used balance? lcd-x and hd 600?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

HE6. HD800. LCD 3. And CIEM S


----------



## ogodei

redbull said:


> So which phones do you used balance? lcd-x and hd 600?


 

 Alpha Dogs, LCD-X, HD 600 balanced;  T1s, HD800s, DT-250s, and misc other unbalanced


----------



## SoupRKnowva

alrainbow said:


> HE6. HD800. LCD 3. And CIEM S


 
  
 You don't get any buzz/hiss/hum using CIEMs balanced?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Soup if the amp has a low noise floor no it's silent. However the Mytek. 
Does have a small noise until the music starts.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

alrainbow said:


> Soup if the amp has a low noise floor no it's silent. However the Mytek.
> Does have a small noise until the music starts.



Oh I was asking specifically about the master 6/8/9, whichever one you use


----------



## ALRAINBOW

The M8 with the M7 dac


----------



## RedBull

ogodei said:


> Alpha Dogs, LCD-X, HD 600 balanced;  T1s, HD800s, DT-250s, and misc other unbalanced




Thanks.

So when is your gsx mkii expected to come? I am waiting anxiously for your comparison with m8


----------



## DarknightDK

alrainbow said:


> The M8 with the M7 dac


 
  
 How's the pairing of the M7 with the M8? I'm considering a similar combo, for the LCD3 and HD800.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Well the M8 is out and the M9 is in. But the pair is excellent . It will take off the edge with the HD800, without sacrificing detail. And with the LCD,s it will great to. It is the dac I use the most. , there is something marvelous about it. And the M8or now 9. Will power the HE6 as well. In balance mode of course. Make sur you get the cast cables from kingwa so you may have a fully balanced connection from dac to preamp. 

Al D


----------



## ogodei

Red Bull said:
			
		

> So when is your gsx mkii expected to come? I am waiting anxiously for your comparison with m8


 

  
 Spoke to Justin from Headamp just recently about that, the likelihood is 'early next year' now.
  
 I did have the chance to compare the master 8 head-to-head with a GSK MkII at the Chicago meet last month.  Both amps were running off burned-in Mytek 192 DSD DACs, fed them both the same files but from different PCs.  Listened with Fostex 900s, Senn HD800s, and Audeze LCD-Xs.
  
 Personally, I couldn't tell the difference after several minutes of going back and forth.  It was at a meet and I don't pretend to be the most discerning of listeners, but I didn't hear any difference on the tracks I listened to.  Dubstep Girl (who brought the GS-X) couldn't tell the difference either for maybe the first 5 minutes.  She was listening at much louder volume than I was (or anyone else at the meet actually! ) 
 and eventually determined the following:


dubstep girl said:


> ive posted a few impressions of GS-X vs. Master 8.
> 
> basically the master 8 is slightly brighter than the gsx but both are fairly neutral with a similar sound signature. the master 8 has a bigger soundstage and more air, the gsx slightly warmer. but overall both sound pretty much dead neutral.


 
  
 The above is from the GS- X thread where there has been some recent discussion of the topic. She also posted some more detailed impressions in the ChiUniFi 7.5 impressions thread. 
  
 My plan is still to get the GS-X, do a comparison for a few months, and sell the loser.  Form factor may ultimately play a role here, the master 8 takes up more desk space.  But I am still completely happy with it. The GS-X may just be adding beauty at the cost of $1500 bucks.


----------



## RedBull

That is a very useful comparison ogodei. Thanks.

Btw, just to make sure that she's comparing gsx mkii and not the previous mki, correct? cos I read that mkii and mki is quite a bit different in terms of power.


----------



## DarknightDK

Thanks for the summary Ogodei. We'll be very interested to hear the results of your comparison between the M8 and the GSX mkII. At the price point, it seems like the M9 is an unbeatable value and a fantastic amp!
  
  
 Quote:


redbull said:


> That is a very useful comparison ogodei. Thanks.
> 
> Btw, just to make sure that she's comparing gsx mkii and not the previous mki, correct? cos I read that mkii and mki is quite a bit different in terms of power.


 
  
 The GSX mkII was compared to the M8 at the meet.


----------



## ogodei

Definitely GS-X Mk II, one from the first batch, not an upgraded GS-X.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I can add this to the comparison. 

HEADAMP , compared to audio gd. This is general observation of the two companies. 

Audio gd is the best bang for the buck. All of there devices made are extremely well made and the spec,s are also are among the best. And given a two week or less order to your door in the USA is also impressive. Kingwa also Answer ,s his emails promptly. The sound of kingwa,s Amps Is wire with gain as there is no sound to his amps. I own the mytek dac. And as I do not care for the sound it is clear and precise in its sound, now change to another dac and the amp reviews this sound as well. I own a few dac,s and the audio gd changes with them meaning it has no house sound of its own. And as such great recordings will make you smile and the bad will make you change the song or disk. 
The audio gd has two more features that are important , first is the gain control on the back of the unit. It has a high gain and low gain. This is important as songs and connected devices are all not at the same level of output. 
The second is also important it gives you several inputs to use , as I have several devices I use with the pre/ amp . This comes in very handy when changes between inputs . 

Now HEADAMP . 
I do not have possession of any amps. But I have read many reviews and comparisons . And what I will say is not about the sound.
It is about doing business. First a quick story to setup why I feel they way I do. 
Did you ever here about a new place to eat but the line is long and reservations when made is really not payed attention to. So you just wait anyway. Well when you finally get to sit down and eat, is it the best you ever had?? Well I'm guessing if it's like my memories it's not worth the wait. Audio gd and HEADAMP I think are very near top of the hi end . And Most likely they are tops but do not charge triple the price for it. 
Now I have been waiting about six months now for my BHSE. And you may say I am just being mad about the wait. But the truth is I am not . I was well aware of the pending wait and there will be people here telling me they waited far longer then me. But my answer is there not me , only I am me. And there is little on this earth worth waiting for and it defenietly 
Not an amp or any device. A couple of months is understood. Beyond that well I just want to hear the difference between it and woo audio Wes with all upgrades. By the way ordered and deliverd in two weeks. 

Now as for looks , well HEADAMP wins this as his devices are very pleasing to the eyes. And from what I read to the ears too. I will keep you posted when ever that happens. And one last thought , kingwa is someone who will discuss in emails whatever you need to ask, changeling inputs on a dac. Or increasing the gain on an amp. Has anyone here ever received a reply from HEADAMP in the same week lol. But I am still waiting............

Al D


----------



## BournePerfect




----------



## RedBull

I like the comment about bigger soundstage and more air on m8.
How about bass punch? after hearing Phoenix long time ago, have the impression that m8/9 bass could be less punchy than gsx mkii?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Not as yet hearing the HEADAMP and owning several kingwa amps I can say this . They both are very well presentation amps , and if put side by side it will difficult to decker none over the other. Justin's amps are stealer and if there is improvements it will be additional power and even less coloring of the music being played . I emailed kingwa about improvements over my M8 and maybe ordering the M9. He is a honest man and said there is improvements but said for me not to order as the improvements were small.

Al D


----------



## ogodei

redbull said:


> I like the comment about bigger soundstage and more air on m8.
> How about bass punch? after hearing Phoenix long time ago, have the impression that m8/9 bass could be less punchy than gsx mkii?


 
  
 For me, I will have to have more time with the amps side by side to make any judgment on that.  A couple of people on the GS-X thread might have more input.
  


alrainbow said:


> Not as yet hearing the HEADAMP and owning several kingwa amps I can say this . They both are very well presentation amps , and if put side by side it will difficult to decker none over the other. Justin's amps are stealer and if there is improvements it will be additional power and even less coloring of the music being played . I emailed kingwa about improvements over my M8 and maybe ordering the M9. He is a honest man and said there is improvements but said for me not to order as the improvements were small.
> 
> Al D


 
  
 Agreed with you on the comparability of the Headamp v. audiogd, and largely on your comments about delivery time frames.  It's very hard to recommend a product if it simply isn't available and a comparable experience is to be had right away, for less money. The main hesitation for most people seems to be warranty concerns, thinking that shipping time and costs would be too great for Kingwa's products, but eventually those concerns can be overridden if the time gap for availability becomes too much.


----------



## LarsHP

Also the warranty includes return shipping IIRC, so that's not a concern.


----------



## nigeljames

redbull said:


> I like the comment about bigger soundstage and more air on m8.
> How about bass punch? after hearing Phoenix long time ago, have the impression that m8/9 bass could be less punchy than gsx mkii?


 
  
 I had it on good authority, before I bought my M6, from people who had owned/heard the Phoenix and at least one of the Master series amps that the bass is significantly better on the Master series amps.
 A couple of Phoenix owners commented that the amp had to be warmed up for at least an hour before significant bass appears which is absolutely not the case with the master series.
  
 Personally I feel the bass on the M6 is superb with plenty of tight controlled punch if it's on the recording.


----------



## i019791

larshp said:


> Also the warranty includes return shipping IIRC, so that's not a concern.


 
 For the first year only


----------



## RedBull

nigeljames said:


> I had it on good authority, before I bought my M6, from people who had owned/heard the Phoenix and at least one of the Master series amps that the bass is significantly better om the Master series amps.
> A couple of Phoenix owners commented that the amp had to be warmed up for at least an hour before significant bass appears which is absolutely not the case with the master series.
> 
> Personally I feel the bass on the M6 is superb with plenty of tight controlled punch if it's on the recording.




Hopefully, possible, as i like the bass on ref. 7.1 a lot.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Have you emailed kingwa, he is incredible honest about how it will sound. He truly is a good guy in this. 

Just pose your question well. Cause although he seems to understand pretty well his answered sometimes confuse me. Do it now , he is around at this time..post what he says
Al D


----------



## staalf

staalf said:


> I have received the mail that the Master 9 is ready for shipment.
> May be tomorrow I will have a tracking number. Can't wait.
> 
> Is there anybody who already received their Master 9??


 

 I have received the Audio-gd Master 9 and I wrote I small review about it. (It is my first one, so be kind to me.)
  
http://www.head-fi.org/products/audio-gd-master-9-preamp-headphone-amp/reviews/10071


----------



## DarknightDK

Thanks for taking the time to post an initial review of the master 9. I believe you're the first to do so. Give the amp a good 300 hours to burn in and you'll notice good improvements in the sound quality. Audio gd products need to be burned in for some time before they perform their best. IMO of course.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Staalf. What dac do you use with the M9 ??


----------



## M-13

alrainbow said:


> Staalf. What dac do you use with the M9 ??


 
 "~The hardware is a *Audio-GD Reference 7 DAC + USB */ Coaxial and a Master 9. The headphone is still a Denon D7000."


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Do you use the audio gd balance cables?


----------



## DarknightDK

Does the ACSS cables really make a difference as compared to using balanced interconnects on the master dac/amp setup?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Well kingwa made it to use so I do. I have a pair of mono krell,s and a krell preamp. Krell calls it cast. And they are over twenty years old . The truth is I have never. A/B it . But it comes with it . Or you can buy it from kingwa. Cheap like 100 a pair or less. His cables are not normal balance connectors either . One last thing ACSS is balanced but only cap astilbe with his devices. The M9 is CAST , krell type system.


----------



## undersys

M9 is also backwards compatible with kingwa's existing ACSS system.
 Kingwa says his gear works better if connected via ACSS between Audio-gd components.


----------



## sayh

ACSS is not about the cable, it sounds better imho, all about synergy with ACSS or CAST equipments.
 You got to hear it to see if you like it, sort of a clearer dynamics overall, in a sense some feel it lacks musicality dependent on genres.


----------



## undersys

Sayh : So your saying it sounds more neutral then say XLR balanced  ?
 Not that I can comment I've not heard ACSS ... yet


----------



## macrog

I cant comment on the Master 9 as I don't have mine yet, but acss interconnect from Master 7 DAC sounds more transparent on the Master 5, 6 & 8.
  
 I preferred the acss connection even compared to Analysis Plus Gold Oval Balanced interconnect cables that I absolutely love on everything else which cost about 200 times more than the a-g cables.
  
 The best comparison I can make between Balanced and Acss interconnects is that acss sound alot like the difference of running my Master 7 DAC with I2S digital input. Removal of coloration and a slightly cleaner window of sound.
  
 I hope that is helpful.
  
 I like the look of the new case work on the Master 9.
  
 Regards
  
 Macrog


----------



## staalf

alrainbow said:


> Do you use the audio gd balance cables?


 

 No, I have them, but they are far to short. I have all equipment next to each other. I use Sommercable Epilogue Neutrik XLR. These cables are used in many studios because they are so neutral.


----------



## sayh

undersys said:


> Sayh : So your saying it sounds more neutral then say XLR balanced  ?
> Not that I can comment I've not heard ACSS ... yet


 
 I concur acss is more dynamic and transparent over the xlr inputs, AGD equipments are already neutral by itself.


----------



## LarsHP

I did make a/b comparisons between ACSS and XLR connections maybe a year ago, and found that the ACSS connection had higher resolution, microdynamics, speed. Comparison was with a $600 XLR "Reference" cable, which I know makes a slightly warmer sound without loosing details, and sound via XLR was indeed slightly warmer than via ACSS. After that, ACSS has been the connection to the Master 6, unless I need the have two simultaneous outputs from my Ref 7.1 when comparing two amps.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I just ordered a Master 9- and I would like to understand better what ACSS is.
  
 I see the amplifier has RCA, XLR, and 4 pin XLR out.  What is ACSS?   I see no other output?
  
 Do I need to re-cable my headphone to use ACSS?
  
 Please explain in simple terms.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Never mind.   I just checked Audiogd website.   If I understand correctly from there, ACSS is an improved balanced operation.


----------



## mowglycdb

ACSS is a conector that inter-conects different Audio-GD equipment for example:
  
   DAC                PRE-AMP            Power-AMP
 Master7 - ACSS- Master9 -ACSS-   Master 3.
  
  
 If you have an Audio-GD DAC I'd recommend you to ask for the ACSS cables If I'm not wrong it's less than 30$ for the pair.


----------



## rsbrsvp

No-  I don't own a Audiogd DAC.
  
 From what I understand from the technical detail sheet on the Master 9 it seems that even XLR or RCA input can output ACSS which is as good as ACSS coming from the source.
  
_ "Master 9 is a true balanced design applying the newest ACSS design which can improve the XLR connection to sound as good as the ACSS connection." _
  
  
_"Using RCA input, Master 9 can convert to balanced ACSS signal and output real balance signal from XLR and ACSS."_
  
 Maybe I am misunderstanding what it says.


----------



## mowglycdb

rsbrsvp said:


> No-  I don't own a Audiogd DAC.
> 
> From what I understand from the technical detail sheet on the Master 9 it seems that even XLR input can output ACSS which is as good as ACSS coming from the source.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think he was talking about the XLR output connection, he made some changes from Master 8 to Master 9 where he improved the XLR and headphone out to be better while  ACSS would retain it's current performance.


----------



## sayh

rsbrsvp said:


> I just ordered a Master 9- and I would like to understand better what ACSS is.
> I see the amplifier has RCA, XLR, and 4 pin XLR out.  What is ACSS?   I see no other output?
> Do I need to re-cable my headphone to use ACSS?
> Please explain in simple terms.


 
 ACSS is a balance interconnection natively called by audiogd, and it is used to connect their equipment together that has this interconnection, like you would with others that has RCA or XLR. This is actually is the same technology as krell CAST interconnection, so krell equipment is compatible.
  
 The 4 pins XLR input and output you see on the master series of amps and pre-amps are the acss connectors.
 Kingwa still uses a mixture of 3 pins mini XLR, and 4 pins XLR currently. AGD equipment before late 2010 are using LEMO connectors for acss, and it was replaced with mini-XLR after which. When the master series starts to appear, 4 pins XLR was implemented from then. So be sure to know the complicated naming convention of the acss cables you wanted, if you make an order from them.
 And you do not terminate your headphones to plug into the acss interconnections.


----------



## rsbrsvp

So- what would I call the 4 pin balanced headphone output on the Audiogd Master 9?  Is there a name for it?


----------



## sayh

You already said it, it is a balanced headphone output, and it is the 4pins female xlr connector located on the front panel.


----------



## rsbrsvp

But that 4-pin connector is not called ACSS?


----------



## mowglycdb

The acss conector are the gold ones next to the switches.
  
 The 4-pin xlr and 3 pin are called XLR, the outputs on the left and right corner.  There should be another set of ACSS connectors that should be pre-amp outputs.
  
 Front

  
 Back


----------



## ALRAINBOW

why dont you post a pic of the front and the back . put something in the photo a reference on one side. then there can be no dobt .


----------



## rsbrsvp

got it.   Thanks to everyone for the lesson..


----------



## ALRAINBOW

COOL .


----------



## drez

IIRC using ACSS results in lower distortion, cables can be made by professional cable makers or DIY as alternatives to the stock cables. Switchcraft, Rean and now Furutech all make mini xlr 3 pin female connectors which work well.


----------



## Clemmaster

I didn't see the pictures of the new M9. Is that just me or the picture they had in the front page looked identical to the M8?
  
 Now they look like this, with a volume pot:


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Me toooo. Please post a pic of the real M9. 

Al D


----------



## undersys

Yeah i am keen to know if that image is the real Master 9? The Master 8 did not have the volume control nob.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

M7/M8 combo. 

Al D


----------



## Clemmaster

alrainbow said:


> Me toooo. Please post a pic of the real M9.
> 
> Al D


 
  
 I don't own one.
 I was just checking Audio-gd's website and found out that the M9 looks different from before.


----------



## undersys

I'll have one soon  Order has just gone in.


----------



## M-13

clemmaster said:


> I didn't see the pictures of the new M9. Is that just me or the picture they had in the front page looked identical to the M8?
> 
> Now they look like this, with a volume pot:


 
 Me likey!
  
 I realize it's digital, but I still like having that pot. I think the overall design looks better than the M8. It's a small difference but I like!
  
 Drool


----------



## OneSec

I wonder if Sony UDA-1 will be a nice complement to Master 9 or their headphone amp. Right now I'm exploring the support for DSD...


----------



## undersys

I'd prefer it with out the nob , but I don't really care either way 
  
 I was thinking of adding in a Loki to give me DSD but hey maybe not


----------



## drez

Looks good, interesting the headphone outs are wired to the 3 pin xlr first, also,hookup lengths are different so i guess this doesn't matter so much. I will probably order one some time in January.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

The truth is there is almost no dacs that play dsd directly without converting it to PCM or multibit. I did a lot of reading on the topic. You are better off getting a good dac and convert dsd and all high res to wave. This will improve the sound in Almost all dacs . I even did this with my DAP , s as well . The GUI is much faster with this format , the chips inside do not have to process the files as much. It also improves the batter life as well.

Al D


----------



## undersys

I only have one DSD album anyways.. but that's a fair comment ALRAINBOW.
  
 Also apparently, that IS the new face of the Master 9. According to someone in the other master 9 thread. I wonder why kingwa brought back the volume nob.
  
 Also ALRAINBOW ;
  
 How do you find the heat when stacking M8/M7? From my understanding the M8 runs pretty warm?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Not sure why . I read somewhere that king wa moved away from it due to breakage during shipment . I do prefer the buttons as it is easy to know exactly where you are with numbers. Does anyone here know if the knob changes numbers in the display ? If it does then I am fine with that..

Al D


----------



## tim3320070

Knob changed number before he did buttons, I'm sure it would now.
  
 Maybe ask Kingwa about DSD? I would keep the ACSS connection between DAC and M9 if I could.


----------



## undersys

Last time i spoke to kingwa he did not seem to interested in DSD, that may change how ever.


----------



## rsbrsvp

I was wondering if those with experience with Audio-gd amplifiers could tell me if they sound better warmed up- and if so how much time do they need to be warmed up to sound their best?
  
 Also- I want to put mine in a cabinet.  If I am warming it up for many hours- can I close the cabinet door- or could it overheat?


----------



## undersys

rsbrsvp,
 Can't comment on the warm up time yet 
  
 But kingwa seemed to see no issue with me rack mounting mine into a full rack...
 I do have ventilation in the rack but yeah..


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I can add that the amps need to be warm. To sound well. But keep in mind they are class a 
And as such gendrate a lot of heat weather being used or not


----------



## rsbrsvp

alrainbow said:


> I can add that the amps need to be warm. To sound well. But keep in mind they are class a
> And as such gendrate a lot of heat weather being used or not


 
 How long is warm?  One hour- or ten hours- or somewhere in between?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I say warm as I. It feels warm so depending on your room temp it wi vary. 
But if a time must be pinned down 30 mins. 

Go to Psaudio forums. Read the discussion on stanby. All ps audio equipment is ways on

And in fact most of your equipment in your home is on. TV microwave 
Cable box. All on. I have a demon 5805ci. It's a ten channel surround sound receiver. 

It has two buttons on the front. One is on off. The other is standby. It is a fact that all extrinsic a work better 
When they are at there normal running temp. However tubes have a short life spam so just warmup when used. 
But CLASS a devices use the same power playing or not. And for this reason. Warmup is better than always on

Hope this helps


----------



## LarsHP

Kingwa said to me in an email quite a while ago that warm-up time (to max SQ or the like) is 30 minutes.
 Make sure the equipment has good ventilation since they run in class A.
 Frankly I haven't checked the difference between cold and after 30 minutes ... so can't comment on any sound difference.


----------



## mowglycdb

alrainbow said:


> I say warm as I. It feels warm so depending on your room temp it wi vary.
> 
> But if a time must be pinned down 30 mins.
> 
> ...



 


^ This

In my case it takes from 30 min to one hour and a half, if you touch it and it's hot, say 45-50 C+ it should play at it's best, soundstage gets bigger, more dynamic and more body. More than room temperature depends mostly in it's ventilation, my master 8 warms the room quite a bit. with master 9 that uses 55 instead of 48W, it could be more notorious(?)


----------



## Clemmaster

mowglycdb said:


> alrainbow said:
> 
> 
> > I say warm as I. It feels warm so depending on your room temp it wi vary.
> ...


 
 48W (or 55 for that matters) is nothing and certainly won't warm the room, unless it's a tiny one .
 It's lower than a regular bulb (60 - 100W).
  
 How warm is it at your place? 50C is a lot and you would feel burned if you touch it (metal case).


----------



## mowglycdb

It's about 30 C up to 33C in santiago, chile. The sun hits my room in the afternoon, so it gets even hotter + PC on DAC and Master8. I'd say it gets up to 36-38 C if not more.


----------



## Clemmaster

mowglycdb said:


> It's about 30 C up to 33C in santiago, chile. The sun hits my room in the afternoon, so it gets even hotter + PC on DAC and Master8. I'd say it gets up to 36-38 C if not more.


 
  
 Wow in that case...
  
 My NFB-27 got pretty hot in summer, too, but certainly nowhere near as hot as in Chile.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

as for warm up time , its not about time its really about temperature . anything about 100 f is fine as for higher temps he should have a max operating temp on his site.
  
 a good rule of thumb to follow is staking is only ok if it is not an amp.  and the m8 or m9 is an amp.  when I first setup the M7\M8 I stacked them with about 2 inches of space .
  
 well after 3 hours they were really hot. like I smelled the electronics . now I shut it down all is well, but now there is 4 inches and two fans on top of the lower unit  . get my drift, and this in nyc , fall and central ac.  unless you make provisions its not cool to stack and in a rack if open might be ok, but should be monitored and if closed no way.
  
 closed cabinets never a good idea for heat generating devices. just take your cable box and put a dvd player on top , it will become really hot. it is like turning up the heat as one device adds the heat to the other. 
  
 al d


----------



## OneSec

Putting a class A 30 minutes idle is bad for mother earth  And probably your wallet. I know a friend who rush to home from work everyday, and first thing he does is to turn on his AMP, before he fetches his kids from school...
  
  
 I guess next time when I turn my setup on Reference 10.32 on next time, do some Internet browsing for 30 minutes before I start to listen to Music.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

No that is not the point of this thread. I listen to all my stuff as soon as I turn it on . But the question was asked will it sound better when warmed up compared to cold . That was answered here . I own a ref 10.32. It was my first audio gd device. But as much as I do not want to say it matters it does . Now I own several ps audio power plants . And they are internet controlled power conditioners . So when heading to office or home . I turn on the equipment from my iPhone. 

Al d


----------



## M-13

onesec said:


> Putting a class A 30 minutes idle is bad for mother earth  And probably your wallet. I know a friend who rush to home from work everyday, and first thing he does is to turn on his AMP, *before he fetches his kids from school...*


 
 The man knows his priorities. ROFL


----------



## rsbrsvp

Here is a correspondence with Audio-gd:
  
 Dear Steven,
 No problems, even you cover the Master 9 top side, power on it 5 hours still no any matter, its heat sink ability have a lot spare room.
 Kingwa

 At 2013-12-13 14:38:23,"Steven Rubin"  wrote:


> Yes.  The cabinet is 3x the size of the master 9.  Can I leave Master 9 in the cabinet running *with the door closed* for 3-4 hours or is the heat to much?
> Thanks,
> 
> Steven


----------



## undersys

Thats close to what he told me too. AS i'll be rack mounting mine so i wanted to make sure it won't get too hot.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

if you rack mount and it is all open not so bad ,but you must check as when being used. but most defintly not is closed.

al d


----------



## rsbrsvp

I told Audio-gd I was putting the Master 9 in a closed cabinet and i wanted to keep it running for 4-5 hours.  He told me as long as the cabinet is at least three times the size of the unit- providing breathing room- I could close the cabinet while it was on for many hours.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

No absolutly not. It is genrrating heat and in an enclosed box not good

Do what you wish and i hope it works out 

Al


----------



## macrog

I have always found with Audio-gd gear that a decent gap between components improves the sound.
  
 I have always left my master 5, 6 & 8 turned on all the time but switched to preamp mode. I switch to headphone mode when I am going to start listening.
  
 regards
  
 Macrog


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Does it make less heat in preamp mode , draw less power ?


----------



## macrog

yes definitely less heat in preamp mode
  
 Macrog


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Very good idea sir did not think of that. Makes sense though it must turnoff the headphone amp. 

Al D


----------



## tim3320070

alrainbow said:


> No absolutly not. It is genrrating heat and in an enclosed box not good
> 
> Do what you wish and i hope it works out
> 
> Al


 
 You know better than the designer eh?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

What i think is a mis understanding with you and kingwa. Do. A post ask others see who says its ok. And i do hope all is well weather you do want i say or not. I am just trying to help 
Sorry. .


----------



## undersys

I can't comment yet, but kingwa said to me inside a rack would be fine (rack is ventilated) and closed.
 Also it was not a mis-understanding as in language wise.
  
 On the same note, the rack will be open when i am using the master 9 anyways...


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Now that sounds fine and I guess I did not read the ventilation part 
I'm glad it's fine. And as for warm up if in a cabinet I'm sure the warm up time will decrease as well

Enjoy it's a great product


----------



## Benny-x

alrainbow said:


> I have 4 dacs in that price range. The M7/ref10.32/mytek and the Pwd mkii. Audio gd 1704 chips is great with headphones. But the Pwd mkii is great with speakers and last would be the mytek.
> 
> Al. D


 
 Hey Al, I'm really at odds between getting the Master & of the PWD mkII, and I see there you've got both of them.
  
 I'm mainly moving over to speakers, but will always have a few sets of headphones on hand. It's very interesting that you say the PWD mkII is better for speakers, and I was wondering if you could expand on that at all? It you could go more in depth for your views on the 2, that'd be amazing and greatly appreciated. 
  
 In music I'm really looking for big soundstage, imaging, bass impact, and believability. I want to feel as I'm there and enjoy every moement. I don't need to get the microest details, I just want to get all the information I need for it to sound right. As for what I'll be listening to; music (female vocal trance/dubstep & other electronica[50%], 80s & 90s rock[20%], hip-hop[20%] and classical[10%], but few to no jazz, country, or acoustic) and movies of all kinds.
  
 Thanks in advance if you can flesh that comparison out a bit for me!


----------



## ALRAINBOW

How do you intend to connect the DAC. This important. USB. / coax/ i2s ?


----------



## Clemmaster

benny-x said:


> Hey Al, I'm really at odds between getting the Master & of the PWD mkII, and I see there you've got both of them.
> 
> I'm mainly moving over to speakers, but will always have a few sets of headphones on hand. It's very interesting that you say the PWD mkII is better for speakers, and I was wondering if you could expand on that at all? It you could go more in depth for your views on the 2, that'd be amazing and greatly appreciated.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Audio-GD in general (not just the PCM1704) have a sound that is bigger and further back a few rows compared to the competition. This is an aspect that I really like with headphones because it helps to get the sound out of the head.
  
 With speakers, you probably would like the sound direction to go the other way: more forward, closer to you. Think of what the result in the headphones would be? The sound is in your head.
  
 For speaker listening I preferred the Chord QuteHD because it is livelier and more upfront. It's not bad at all with headphones because it has a very good depth in the sound, but the NFB-27 (and now SA-2) pushed the sound fews rows back in depth and the singer would not be that close to my head anymore, for a better overall viewing.
  
 IMO, the headphone amp section should do this "pushing back/forward the sound", so that one can use the same DAC in both headphone and speaker setups without the aforementioned consequences.


----------



## nigeljames

clemmaster said:


> The Audio-GD in general (not just the PCM1704) have a sound that is bigger and* further back a few rows* compared to the competition. This is an aspect that I really like with headphones because it helps to get the sound out of the head.
> 
> With speakers, you probably would like the sound direction to go the other way: more forward, closer to you. Think of what the result in the headphones would be? The sound is in your head.
> 
> ...


 

 Are you including the their Sabre32 DAC's in that?
  
 I find my NFB-7 to be anything but laid back or distant. Just the way I like it


----------



## jamc

I am in the process of finding a great amp for my current HE-500 and possible HE-6 in the future. The usual suspects in the tube realm- WA6SE, Taboo MkIII and then I saw this thread and am looking into SS amps now as well. Is the Master 9 more than I would need... Precision 1 too little? Anyone with either headphone using an Audio-gd amp?
 Thanks


----------



## Clemmaster

nigeljames said:


> Are you including the their Sabre32 DAC's in that?
> 
> I find my NFB-7 to be anything but laid back or distant. Just the way I like it


 
  
 Yes, the NFB-27 was explosive (dynamics) in its sound, just how I like it too! But, the sound stage was still pushed-back compared to, say, the Chord or the Ciunas.
 It's not distant in the sense laid back, it's really a physical thing: you're further from the performers, yet you can still feel the grip and attacks as if you where next to them.
  
 I'm thinking of returning the SA-2 and get the NFB-27 back, actually. Still debating...


----------



## nigeljames

jamc said:


> I am in the process of finding a great amp for my current HE-500 and possible HE-6 in the future. The usual suspects in the tube realm- WA6SE, Taboo MkIII and then I saw this thread and am looking into SS amps now as well. Is the Master 9 more than I would need... Precision 1 too little? Anyone with either headphone using an Audio-gd amp?
> Thanks


 
  
 If you are looking for an amp with a future purchase of the HE-6 in mind I am afraid you need to rule out the Woo6se and Taboo, neither has enough power.
 The Precision does look interesting and will definitely have enough power.


----------



## Benny-x

alrainbow said:


> How do you intend to connect the DAC. This important. USB. / coax/ i2s ?


 
 I had been using a JKenny Mk3 SPDIF in my old Lite DAC-83 system, but I sold all of it off when I moved a few months ago. 
  
 I thought I had read much earlier in this thread that Kingwa's new USB32 was a great step up and more or less eliminated the need for a great SPDIF convertor like the old REF 7 or 7.1 needed. I was very happy to hear that and also read the same thing about the PWD mkII. Has that opinion changed now about the Master7? I really hope it hasn't, I hated having to play the "what's the best sounding and most compatible" SPDIF game.
  
 As long as the USB32 on the M7 or the USB on the PWD can handle Integer Mode from my specialized and modified ComputerAudiophile C.A.P.S v3 Zuma server, I'll be supplying the DAC via clean powerd USB 3.0. 
  
 If I have to go back to SPDIF I would either get a Jkenny Ciúnas or cry and then hope SWMBO didn't murder me when I tried to get a Berkeley Alpha USB. I cannot justify the funds in going to the EA-OR5, so unless there's another great and affordable i2s convertor out there, I don't think that's option is there for me. I would like to avoid this additional stage if you believe I can get great sound via USB input.


----------



## Benny-x

clemmaster said:


> The Audio-GD in general (not just the PCM1704) have a sound that is bigger and further back a few rows compared to the competition. This is an aspect that I really like with headphones because it helps to get the sound out of the head.
> 
> With speakers, you probably would like the sound direction to go the other way: more forward, closer to you. Think of what the result in the headphones would be? The sound is in your head.
> 
> ...


 
 Fantastic explanation of their differences, Clemmater. That makes a very good point and a much more defined variable for me to consider when thinking about getting the M7 vs. PWD mkii. Or other contender DACs.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I think Clem said it great too. I can add this to it. The pwd mkii is best sounding with the bridge or hdmi i2s. Input
The USB is not as clean as the others. But the difference in the DAC is still as Clem says 
Now I can also say if the music you listen to is high quality. The the pdwmkii is ok. 
But the M7 is a little more easy on the ears with less than high quality. I think Clem will agree
With me in this. And one more thing to consider is cost. At 4k for just a DAC
You can get both the M7/M9 combo. And have ACSS connection between them
And have a preamp and great headphone amp too. $$$ wise is just make sense 

Al D


----------



## Clemmaster

alrainbow said:


> I think Clem said it great too. I can add this to it. The pwd mkii is best sounding with the bridge or hdmi i2s. Input
> The USB is not as clean as the others. But the difference in the DAC is still as Clem says
> Now I can also say if the music you listen to is high quality. The the pdwmkii is ok.
> But the M7 is a little more easy on the ears with less than high quality. I think Clem will agree
> ...


 
  
 Prep could chime in because he used to own both the M7 and PWD2. I never heard either.
 I was just making a general statement on my experience with many Audio-GD DAC which all had this "pushed-back" feeling that works great with headphones.
  
 From what I read, the PWD has a more frontal kind of sound. I know Darryl liked it a lot with his HE-6, so either he is not bothered by the forward sound like I am, or the First Watt F1J does the pushing back thing instead.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Clem I have them both it is as your say. The audio GD m7. Is a brilliant DAC
But it has not pre amp function and I think is a little wore forgiving over all. 
But it is my faverite DAC in all. The pwdmkii is great on speakers and in fact is tuned 
With speakers in mind Paul does not like headphones and has infinity IRS 5 
Speakers. I have them too it is an extreme detail oriented system. I have tried the M7 
On them and you are a little back. So the image suffers a littlle. But the pwdmkii
Is front row center the stage is wide and the detail is fine too. I think for headphones it's bit much
Not for me and I like analytical and all the detail I can get. The M7 is sweeter
And the pwdmkii is colder. 
The only drawback is preamp and the input on the pwdmkii. To be up close you need the better input
Makes bass tighter. 
One last thing the pwdmkii is a work in progress with changing fiirm wares
The m7 ur done when you load the USB drivers


----------



## LarsHP

jamc said:


> I am in the process of finding a great amp for my current HE-500 and possible HE-6 in the future. The usual suspects in the tube realm- WA6SE, Taboo MkIII and then I saw this thread and am looking into SS amps now as well. Is the Master 9 more than I would need... Precision 1 too little? Anyone with either headphone using an Audio-gd amp?
> Thanks


 

 I have HE-6 and use it with Master 6 (which is roughly a Master 9 in high power mode) and Burson Soloist. I also have a tube amp, that I use with HE-6: the Leben CS300.
  
 If I was to keep just one amp, I would without a doubt keep the Audio-gd.

 If you have ever heard an Audeze LCD-2 / LCD-3 / LCD-X, and then listen to HE-6 with a tube amp you'll for sure think that in terms of hard hitting bass, you lost quite a bit compared to the Audeze headphone. Now, if you then hook up the HE-6 to a good, powerful solid state amp, you will hear that the bass tightens up and gets more hard hitting - not like an Audeze, but better.
  
 So, if you primarily listen to softer genres and prefer a spacious sound with silky smooth mids and treble over a robust, powerful bass, then go for a top quality tube amp.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I agree the guys stuff is first rate . I am sure there is better but not much at what cost. I wish he made a electrostatic amp wow how much I could have saved. 

I have amps almost 4 times the price yes they are very good . But not that much and if there is a change who knows what is better. I am trying to fined a reason to buy the M9. .

Al d


----------



## ALRAINBOW

As for dacs and there sounds they do sound very different but for me I have to compare them to explain the change in good detail. As for the mytek my fave when used with the pre it is dull unpolished back seat . You do not need to do an A/B test to hear it. But bypassed it is a very good dac. Food for thought if I use the off ramp 5 with the dacs I have mentioned they are all very close in sound only by A/B ing could I say what the change is. Now I just bought a new dac and when it is setup correctly I want to see how it compared to the others with speakers and headphones . 

I hope this helps .


----------



## aeolushu

My new Master-9 arrived today, it sounds amazing even without running-in.
  
 My system: Weiss DAC2 ------ Master-9 ------ HD800, all connected with XLR cable. DAC output level: +17dBu, Master-9 running in Low Gain.
  
 I can hear a very big improvement compared to my previous Luxman DA-200.
  
 This configuration sounds extremely spacious and transparent, with high sound density and good texture. Lots of details, but nothing to do with "clinical". On the contrary, it sounds smooth and musical. Imaging is very small and very precise.
  
 The problem of this configuration is that the treble can be sparkling and aggressive  in some bad recorded tracks. Need more adjustment of cables, and need more running-in, of course.
  
 In one word, I am in love with Master-9.


----------



## LarsHP

Did you do the Anaxilus mod on your HD800? If not, I would expect the treble issue to be caused by the headphone, not the rest of the chain.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

You know I did not do the mod as not amps bring that out on the hd800. As the hdvd800 is great with the hd800. It is a tad more bright than With the M8


----------



## aeolushu

No I did not get any mod of HD800. I think it's because every component in the chain (Weiss DAC2, Master-9, HD800) is very transparent and unforgiving. So, it's "rubbish in, rubbish out". The aggressive treble only comes when the record is really really bad, and this configuration sounds exceptionally good in most of the music.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I feel,the same way. As I am sure the headphone while it was being developed had it's mods and concessions before it went into production . So I leave it alone like you.


----------



## LarsHP

Well, Tyll Hertsens at InnerFidelity, who adores HD800 says that there is a resonance or something in the treble that only will be addressed if the so called Anaxilus mod is done. It's basically a damping of the cup with felt. 

When I heard the HD800 side by side with Audeze and HiFiMan orthodynamic headphones, it was pretty obvious that the HD800 had more than neutral amount of treble AND more problematic: the treble was dry sounding. A description Tyll Hertsens also uses BTW. This dryness to the treble is allegedly fixed with the mod.


----------



## BournePerfect

On the flip side there's plenty of people around here who have tried the mod, and preferred the stock sound. I for one wouldn't give up the huge soundstaging of the HD800 for any other subtle improvements the mod may or may not bring.
  
 -Daniel


----------



## ALRAINBOW

As I have the headphone both the hd800 and the LCD,s . I cannot fathom how someone can remark that the hd800 is Brite and use the LCD,s 3 or any other . My point is the LCD,s are very mid and treble recessed compared to the hd800. So how can one be Brite and the other normal . As I respect tyle for his opinions and I generally agree with his reviews some how something makes no sense with this statement . And brittleness of the hd800 is it's virtue and if you want to tame it . Use. Tube amp or a ss amp with theta tube sound .


----------



## tongyiqian

me too,I hope there's a little bit more bass compared to the Phoenix! thank you


----------



## drez

aeolushu said:


> No I did not get any mod of HD800. I think it's because every component in the chain (Weiss DAC2, Master-9, HD800) is very transparent and unforgiving. So, it's "rubbish in, rubbish out". The aggressive treble only comes when the record is really really bad, and this configuration sounds exceptionally good in most of the music.




I think that's it - master 6 does not hide bad recordings, and is very revealing of upstream and downstream components. In my system I would say only a few badly recorded tracks have aggressive treble, burn in might help but some [bad] recordings will always sound bad. Anax mod version 2 can make the treble less prickly, but still prominent, while still sounding closer to stock than the original Anax mod.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

To me let it burn in a few weeks , but I do not expect it to change any though. But the unit must be on for a while like 20 to 30 mins . Warm to the touch for sure , now this will make a big difference in the sound. Now the M9 gives you what you put in and HD800 is brutal and it plays what it is. It's not an LCD type headphone , it's a ref grade tool. I would not mod it . Try a different music genre and see how it goes if all music has this or just some , it's the dac or TRANSPORT .

All DACS. Have some flaws in there processing and the highs might be your DACS flaw. The M7 is a little warmer type DAC and the PS Audio PWDMKII is cold and brutal. So pick your poison but do not pick the M9 or the HD800. Those two devices are on top of the game. Ps all reviewers have a sound preference and anyone who likes the LCD,s cannot be happy with the HD800. They are just two different universes . Borough a different dac from someone and try different music too.


----------



## staalf

aeolushu said:


> My new Master-9 arrived today, it sounds amazing even without running-in.
> 
> My system: Weiss DAC2 ------ Master-9 ------ HD800, all connected with XLR cable. DAC output level: +17dBu, Master-9 running in Low Gain.
> 
> ...


 

 First congratulations with your Master-9. I have one also and share your thoughts.
  
 I have solved the sparkling and aggressive bad recorded tracks with a plugin. It is the VST Redline Preamp from 112dB. (Vintage Grunge setting works for me.)
  
http://www.112db.com/redline/preamp/?demo
  
 It is try before you buy and I have great results with it.
  
 I must also say that the sound also have improved a lot since I got it. I am very happy!


----------



## ALRAINBOW

May I ask what DAC you are using ? 

Al d


----------



## staalf

alrainbow said:


> May I ask what DAC you are using ?
> 
> Al d




I have the Audio-gd ref7 dac and could not be more satisfied. I am a big Audio-gd fan now.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

That is cool they are good stuff . I have a few of there units. M7 M8. And a ref 10.32.


----------



## staalf

alrainbow said:


> That is cool they are good stuff . I have a few of there units. M7 M8. And a ref 10.32.


 
 Wow, that is a nice list of equipment. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Which of the two do you prefer sound wise? The Master 7 or the ref 10.32.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Master 7. It is everything like the ref 10. But even more detail.


----------



## aeolushu

staalf said:


> First congratulations with your Master-9. I have one also and share your thoughts.
> 
> I have solved the sparkling and aggressive bad recorded tracks with a plugin. It is the VST Redline Preamp from 112dB. (Vintage Grunge setting works for me.)
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for your recommendation. I will have a look at it.


----------



## Benny-x

alrainbow said:


> I think Clem said it great too. I can add this to it. The pwd mkii is best sounding with the bridge or hdmi i2s. Input
> The USB is not as clean as the others. But the difference in the DAC is still as Clem says
> Now I can also say if the music you listen to is high quality. The the pdwmkii is ok.
> But the M7 is a little more easy on the ears with less than high quality. I think Clem will agree
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a lot for your guys' help and comments. In the end I also talked to Prep and found the PWD Mkii at a great price. So I'm going to check it out and see how it sounds. In the end I was really worried that although the M7 would be resolving and have soundstage, that it might lack some bass impact that I need. I'm a bit of a bass head in the end. I'm going to mate it with a Phoenix that I also picked up this past week and hopefully get a good balance in the bass slam out of them. 
  
 It's going to be an interesting year in the audio department for me. Haha, besides a custom BNC cable and a couple tweaks/add-ons, it was a 120% complete system sell off and rebuild. It'll be interesting to see how it all sounds and turns out the 2nd time around... I enjoyed round 1 a lot, but it turned out pretty expensive for me and I can't say that I got what I was looking for. So, time to see again. See if I learned a thing or two?
  
 Anyway, thanks again guys.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

As I own all of what you are looking to buy , keep in mind and ask me what you wish . Right now the M7 is at my home and PWDmkii and PWT is at my office lol. So by the weekend they all should be in the same place and I can do the test you wish with the headphones you wish maybe if I have them. Also shoot me a pm for what music you know and maybe we can work that out as well. It can only get better if you were there than this . 

Good luck. 

Al. D


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Also what firmware is on the pwdmkii the sound does change a lot from older to newer . The newest is 4.2.3'.


----------



## Benny-x

alrainbow said:


> As I own all of what you are looking to buy , keep in mind and ask me what you wish . Right now the M7 is at my home and PWDmkii and PWT is at my office lol. So by the weekend they all should be in the same place and I can do the test you wish with the headphones you wish maybe if I have them. Also shoot me a pm for what music you know and maybe we can work that out as well. It can only get better if you were there than this .
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Al. D


 
  
 I've already bought the PWD Mkii and Phoenix, but they haven't arrived yet. So I guess I missed that chance at asking you more about it before I pulled the trigger :-/  Should be ok, though. I think what I've bought will be a better pairing than previously.
  
 Also, I downloaded all 3 versions of the firmware for the PWD Mkii, so when it does arrive I'll mostly cycle between the newest, 2.4.3, and the bass heavy version, 2.0.2. Apparently the 2.2.0 version was more trebley and lost the impact that 2.0.2 had, and that no matter the revision, it didn't really return until the new 2.4.3. Anyway, I'll see which I like between 2.0.2 and 2.4.3.
  
 If I could ask about it, I'd ask how the Phoenix mated with the PWD Mkii over USB vs. over SPDIF. I used to have a Jkenny Mk3 HiFace and thought it was a great converter, but I've heard that the PWD Mkii's USB input is really fantastic. I wonder if in the end, the DAC still sounds better via that interface and that maybe USB really hasn't caught up yet?
  
 I don't know of an I2s convertor to try, since the PWD Mkii uses HDMI I2s. Any tips?
  
 Thanks a lot for continuing to help, Al.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

The USB implementation is fine and listening with both will be you best way to sort that out. 

Phoneix ??


----------



## ALRAINBOW

The off ramp 5 has the HDMI and the rj45type i2s outputs. Imperical audio


----------



## Benny-x

Alright, thanks. I'll stick to using USB for the trials 
  
 Quote:


alrainbow said:


> The off ramp 5 has the HDMI and the rj45type i2s outputs. Imperical audio


 
  
 Yeah, the Off Ramp is WAY too expensive for me though. Sorry, I should have mentioned that. Also the OR-5 is based on the old HiFace internals, so it can't do Integer Mode and suffers because of it. Lots of other SPDIF converters that can do Integer Mode are really said to have closed the gap on the OR-5 when they were used with it. There should be a new OR-6 coming out soon that uses a whole new chip set and can do Integer Mode, but still, it'll be too pricey for me 
  
 Now besides that converter, are there any others out there that aren't CRAZY expensive. Although I doubt I ever would, I'd consider an SPDIF/I2s converter up to ~$1200, but would really prefer MUCH cheaper. The Berkeley - Alpha USB looks interesting and I think about it, but again, it's quite pricey at $1600 street prices.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

The Audiophilleo pp1 and pure power . 

http://www.audiophilleo.com. It does 384 dsd as well. . Besides just convert ded to wav . There is no direct benefit in leaving it in ded format . I have that too . 

Al. D


----------



## Benny-x

alrainbow said:


> The Audiophilleo pp1 and pure power .
> 
> http://www.audiophilleo.com. It does 384 dsd as well. . Besides just convert ded to wav . There is no direct benefit in leaving it in ded format . I have that too .
> 
> Al. D


 
  
 Thanks. I have heard a lot about the Audiophilleo + PurePower1 and how good it is. And it does Integer Mode too :-D  And yes, I agree that currently converting DSD to PCM is the best move, unless you do have one of the 3 or 4 truly 1bit DACs to handle the true DSD stream. Anyway, DSD isn't a format I'm too concerned with right now, I've left it in the land of marketing hype. I'll wait until it really settles in as a format and people know some way to "make" it sounds better than other formats.
  
 So about the  Audiophilleo + PurePower1, do you use this to connect the PWD Mkii or the M7 to your source computer? What effect has it had on the both DACs, and more so the PWD Mkii?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I own the MSB platinum dac stack with the UMT and galaxy clock. And if you can have a listen to it. It will change your mind of digital recordings verses analog for ever. 

No matter what we read or here people spout about did octal verses analog it's just hype for one or the others products . You going to hear it will be a far better judge .

The audio app with pure power will make that dac move up enough to be worth the investment . It sounds better than the transport to my ears.


----------



## Benny-x

alrainbow said:


> I own the MSB platinum dac stack with the UMT and galaxy clock. And if you can have a listen to it. It will change your mind of digital recordings verses analog for ever.
> 
> The audio app with pure power will make that dac move up enough to be worth the investment . It sounds better than the transport to my ears.


 
  
 Yeah, I don't think a good digital system will sound worse that other TOTL systems. I have a lot of faith in the state of digital now. I think it also has a lot to do with goo planning and good component synergy. I actually can't say what a good analogue system sounds like anyway, as I've never heard a "great" one :-/
  
 And about the Audiophilleo + PP1, have you used it with your DACs before? Especially the PWD Mkii. What was the result? I used to use the JKenny Mk3 HiFace and it definitely did make a difference in sound quality in my old DAC. The Audiophilleo + PP1 is ~$1000 though, so I'm wondering what more it can do that JKenny's new, non-HiFace based, Ciúnas can't?


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I am with you regarding anolog verses digital. But the people with a 100k system will say differently . I have heard a a couple of 100k plus systems and they sound great and there is something about the sound that is calming to hear. But a 100 k digital system sounds way better , but does lack that anolog calming affect. But I would rather have a drink to calm the nerves and have the musicisions in the room with me . As only digital can give you the they are here kind of sound realalisim .


----------



## macrog

My Master 9 has finally arrived and I am pleased to say the upgrade from the Master 8 was very worthwhile. The improvement in detail is immediately apparent.  The A-g CD7FV, Master 7, Master 9, Sennheiser HD800 combo is absolutely gorgeous.
  
 Now if only M2Tech would only come up with a OSX Mavericks Evo driver so I could ditch the Master 7s inbuilt USB32 I would be fully happy. In my opinion though it does take the full M2Tech Evo stack to surpass the inbuilt usb32.
  
 Kingwa always understates the improvement between models and I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade from any other A-g headphone amp to the Master 9. Well worth the effort and money.
  
 The difference between my Master 9 / master 7 / Hd800 system and the Cavalli Liquid Lightening 2 / Stax SR009 is so small I dont think anyone rational would do the upgrade 
  
 Regards
  
 Macrog


----------



## ALRAINBOW

As I do agree with kingwa,s lacking of usb32 input , and I am sure the M8 best,s the M9. But the stax 009 compared to the HD800 really. You need a better amp for the stax. 

I have the woo Wes all in with the stax. And I have written that setup well the hd800 is 85 percent of the stax , but the level of sound from the stax is just so fast and transparent compared to the HD800. If you can find someone with a woo Wes or BHSE. And here just what those cans can really give you.


----------



## preproman

benny-x said:


> Yeah, I don't think a good digital system will sound worse that other TOTL systems. I have a lot of faith in the state of digital now. I think it also has a lot to do with goo planning and good component synergy. I actually can't say what a good analogue system sounds like anyway, as I've never heard a "great" one :-/
> 
> And about the Audiophilleo + PP1, have you used it with your DACs before? Especially the PWD Mkii. What was the result? I used to use the JKenny Mk3 HiFace and it definitely did make a difference in sound quality in my old DAC. The Audiophilleo + PP1 is ~$1000 though, so I'm wondering what more it can do that JKenny's new, non-HiFace based, Ciúnas can't?


 
  
 Hey Ben take a look at this.  http://www.audiobyte.ro/hydra.html#  It's a cheaper way for you to use the I2S input of the PWD2.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/665558/audiobyte-hydra-high-end-usb-interface


----------



## negura

I prefer a neutral sounding interface with the PWD2. Hydra-X is warm sounding and the PWD2 itself is also slightly warm off neutral, which is fine. More than this I find it detracts from overall transparency.
  
 USB to AES:
http://www.yellowtec.de/products-lp/puc2-lp/puc2-lite.html
  
 I also had the non PP Audiophilleo 2 with a linear regulated PSU for the USB power rail. It was great with the PWD2, but I marginally preferred the PUC2 as it proved even more resolving.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I have the pwd and both offramp and ap1/pp. I also have the m7 m8 combo 
If this helps


----------



## preproman

negura said:


> I prefer a neutral sounding interface with the PWD2. Hydra-X is warm sounding and the PWD2 itself is also slightly warm off neutral, which is fine. More than this I find it detracts from overall transparency.
> 
> USB to AES:
> http://www.yellowtec.de/products-lp/puc2-lp/puc2-lite.html
> ...


 
  
 I only recommended the Hydra -X as a cheaper way to use the I2S input of the PWD2.  
  
 Have you heard the I2S output of the Hydra-X with the I2S input of the PWD2?


----------



## negura

preproman said:


> I only recommended the Hydra -X as a cheaper way to use the I2S input of the PWD2.
> 
> Have you heard the I2S output of the Hydra-X with the I2S input of the PWD2?


 
  
 I've not done extensive input testing at that time, but my experience in general in this respect is that while different inputs can indeed sound a bit different, it's a fairly limited impact to sound signature. Unless there are reasons to believe the I2S implementation of the PWD2 and Hydra are indeed significantly superior or different than the others, for some reason...


----------



## preproman

I guess it would be based on the same reasons you feel that AES pcu2 bring improvments.  Some feel I2S will bring improvments over AES, USB and Coax (RCA / BNC)..
  
 Anyway Ben was interested in USB to I2S converters.


----------



## Benny-x

preproman said:


> I guess it would be based on the same reasons you feel that AES pcu2 bring improvments.  Some feel I2S will bring improvments over AES, USB and Coax (RCA / BNC)..
> 
> Anyway Ben was interested in USB to I2S converters.


 
 If you say A = B, and I say B = C, then by simple reason, A = C... That was pretty funny to read, I had a good laugh.
  
 Thanks for pointing me over to the Hydra-X, Darryl. I commented over in that thread too, but what ever happened to your unit? I don't see it listed in your sig or profile, and you never mentioned it when I asked you via PM. I'd hate to say, but I'm guessing you may have never received the unit? Or it was defective or something like that? I'd really love to hear your views on it, it is the cheapest, and seemingly high quality, I2s convertor I've seen around. 
  
 If the word is good about its pairing with the PWD Mkii and I save up a bit, I might have to grab it. Thanks again for pointing me back to it.


----------



## Clemmaster

benny-x said:


> If you say A = B, and I say B = C, then by simple reason, A = C... That was pretty funny to read, I had a good laugh.
> 
> Thanks for pointing me over to the Hydra-X, Darryl. I commented over in that thread too, but *what ever happened to your unit*? I don't see it listed in your sig or profile, and you never mentioned it when I asked you via PM. I'd hate to say, but I'm guessing you may have never received the unit? Or it was defective or something like that? I'd really love to hear your views on it, it is the cheapest, and seemingly high quality, I2s convertor I've seen around.
> 
> If the word is good about its pairing with the PWD Mkii and I save up a bit, I might have to grab it. Thanks again for pointing me back to it.


 
  
 DOA...


----------



## preproman

Yup - it was DOA, they wanted to seen me a replacement right away, but I declined the offer.


----------



## Benny-x

preproman said:


> Yup - it was DOA, they wanted to seen me a replacement right away, but I declined the offer.


 
 Dammit. I had this sneaking feeling that it was DOA and that you'd have declined the replacement. I was just holding it in and hoping you would say Yeah, it was backordered and hasn't arrived yet or my new one's on the way, there was just a supply shortage" or something like that. I guess you got a new, more expensive, DAC, so it just wasn't worth it? 
  
 Given it does what I want though(USB->HDMI-I2s), it doesn't cost more than the DAC itself, and it's battery powered, I may have to give it a look in a few months when work slows down. The more and more I think about it, the more doing a shootout between a few convertors/components seems like a good idea. I've always thought about it, but never committed to the idea. Guess it's be time.
  
 Anyway, I think I'll be happy with the PWD Mkii USB input for a while, though.
  
 As for the most recent posts on the Master 9 though, I wonder how well my new, but used, Phoenix is going to stack up? I really wanted the new guy, but not wanting to shell out about double and finding one already in Canada, it was too hard to pass up. And getting the Phoenix puts Pricklely Peete's MAX Mods on the table as an option/pet-project


----------



## macrog

The Phoenix is still a great headphone amp in my opinion and even as a preamp was better than the Linn I had prior to getting it.

The Phoenix is much more neutral I.e. Less warm through acss inputs however. 

One of the biggest improvements with the master series pre and headphone amps was improving the quality of the xlr and RCA inputs.

I didnt really notice an difference between the master 5, 6 & 8 except with the hifiman he6's which preferred the higher power of the 6 & 8's. The master 9 is a very worth while improvement though.

Regards

macrog


----------



## Clemmaster

macrog said:


> The Phoenix is still a great headphone amp in my opinion and even as a preamp was better than the Linn I had prior to getting it.
> 
> The Phoenix is much more neutral I.e. Less warm through acss inputs however.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Could you tell us more about the improvement of the M9?
 In what areas you feel it is a better headphone amp? Technically? In terms of tonality?
  
 In the M9 specs, Kingwa re-used the M8 THD measure; Does he feels they don't differ that much in that area?

  
 From the graph, one can clearly see the 2nd and 3rd order harmonics that should tell a bit about the philosophy of sound. It's not designed neutral but the overall level of distortion is impressive (<-120dB almost everywhere).


----------



## negura

benny-x said:


> Anyway, I think I'll be happy with the PWD Mkii USB input for a while, though.


 
  
 The PWD2 USB input is good. Then there's better. I'd still be very pleased with just the PWD2 input though. 
 I sometimes swap to it on my speakers. Oh yeah there's that too. I don't think the PWD2 was voiced by the manufacturer with many headphones.


----------



## macrog

I suppose its a bit like the 3 Bears porridge.
  
 The Phoenix was warm but lack a bit of detail, The Master 5, 6 & 8 were very detailed but could sound a little clinical to some, the master 9 is "just right" more detailed than even the master 5, 6 & 8 but more organic sounding.
  
 Comparing them to Audio-gd DACs I would say the Phoenix was like the reference 1/ 7, the Master 5, 6 & 8 like the NFB7 and the Master 9 more like the Master 7.
  
 regards
  
 Macrog


----------



## Clemmaster

macrog said:


> I suppose its a bit like the 3 Bears porridge.
> 
> The Phoenix was warm but lack a bit of detail, The Master 5, 6 & 8 were very detailed but could sound a little clinical to some, the master 9 is "just right" more detailed than even the master 5, 6 & 8 but more organic sounding.
> 
> ...


 
  





 OK, I'm buying one!
 Thanks for the very clear comparison


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Wow you got that right. I belong to ps audio forums , I have mentioned it and emailed Paul the CEO . To buy a pair of headphones and provide us headphone guys another running option. It's funny you mentioned that. I'm using firmware 243. With the offramp5. Wow what a difference , even headphones sound great. There is a definitive path between us headphone people and the two channel speaker guys. The speaker guys are mostly just pompous about anything not speakers and a such we are looked at as a sub culture. I really mean this. As I have all three forms of music reproduction. . I know what these people really think about this method .

Al. D


----------



## negura

alrainbow said:


> Wow you got that right. I belong to ps audio forums , I have mentioned it and emailed Paul the CEO . To buy a pair of headphones and provide us headphone guys another running option. It's funny you mentioned that. I'm using firmware 243. With the offramp5. Wow what a difference , even headphones sound great. There is a definitive path between us headphone people and the two channel speaker guys. The speaker guys are mostly just pompous about anything not speakers and a such we are looked at as a sub culture. I really mean this. As I have all three forms of music reproduction. . I know what these people really think about this method .
> 
> Al. D


 
  
 I think you're right.  I kind of figured this while rolling components and then trying to get correct and consistent impressions on both speakers and headphones. Weeell ... it's not quite the same.
 I think the main differences are in soundstage and imaging, both of which are quite differently presented. With a few tweaks the PWD2 is absolutely glorious with headphones and by that I mean punching very high up. With speakers it's very much so out of the box imo.
  
 And yes some/many speaker people look very much down on us headphones guys. Even magazines here in the UK only regularly review headphones that are at best mid-fi. I always say: it's cars vs motorcycles. There's no better as such.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Thanks I guess I'm not crazy or paranoid lol. As for speakers and headphones it's very complex, but you are correct dacs sound different on speakers and headphones. To discuss it will certainly creat a war of devices so to speak. 

If one would be willing to start a thread for it that would be cool though. But I wonder how headphone people feel about speaker guys. I use them all so I just do. to get the conflict. 

Al. D


----------



## Benny-x

macrog said:


> I suppose its a bit like the 3 Bears porridge.
> 
> The Phoenix was warm but lack a bit of detail, The Master 5, 6 & 8 were very detailed but could sound a little clinical to some, the master 9 is "just right" more detailed than even the master 5, 6 & 8 but more organic sounding.
> 
> ...


 
 This is like the BEST news I could have heard! My last system was too bass-light for me, I suppose I'm a bit of a bass-head in the end, so I've feared that a lot in any new potential setup I checked out. It was such a disappointment and really put me off hi-fi for a while. Anyway, I'm not a detail-freak, but I still do need enough detail to get the right soundstage and imaging I also crave. So it sounds like the warmer/bassier sound of the Phoenix compared the rest of the Master series, minus the maybe the new M9, might suit me best of all :-D
  
 There's also the whole 2 box thing with the Phoenix, which I just think is plain awesome! I love it.
  
 *by the way, I had inquired with Kingwa about getting the Master 8 in a 2 box enclosure and he said it was possible for an additional couple hundred bucks. He said there was an increase in sound quality with doing so, but that it was only slight and that he didn't think it was worth the money. It was doable upon request all the same. So I don't know if the offer still stands on the M9, but I'm just letting y'all(  ) know.


----------



## Benny-x

alrainbow said:


> Thanks I guess I'm not crazy or paranoid lol. As for speakers and headphones it's very complex, but you are correct dacs sound different on speakers and headphones. To discuss it will certainly creat a war of devices so to speak.
> 
> If one would be willing to start a thread for it that would be cool though. But I wonder how headphone people feel about speaker guys. I use them all so I just do. to get the conflict.
> 
> Al. D


 
 During my timeout from hi-fi, and head-fi, after I sold off my last system I listened a lot on my brother's and friend's speaker setups. I came to appreciate them a lot more than I had previously. It's definitely a lot different presentation than I get with headphones and definitely puts me in a different mood. Now that I'm getting back into it all again I'm designing my new system around both headphones and speakers. 
  
 Each one just offers such good different things that I really need both to feel satisfied. Unfortunately trying to tackle both is more than like twice as expensive


----------



## ALRAINBOW

It's not that bad of you pick devices that work for both. The dac does both, and if you get a speaker amp you can use it for headphones. So the only addition is speakers or headphones . Witch ever comes first. And you do. Ot need like 10 k speakers for it to sound good. And speakers used is the best an safe.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Oh you got the PWD MKII I have that dac too. What firmware are you using ?


----------



## Steph86

Hi all,
  
 Just a quick question - My master-9 arrived today and i've hooked it up to my Master-7. I've got both units connected via ACSS so i'm aware the high and low gain feature isn't available, but is it correct that the volume on the m-9 should be at around 50 to power a pair of T50rp's or HE5-lE's or HE 400's?
  
 Also i've got a stereo amp which is connected via RCA on the pre amp out. Where would be the best place to control the volume from? ie do I have the volume full on the stereo amp and control from the m-9 or via versa?
  
 Any help would be much appreciated.
  
 Regards
 Steph


----------



## nigeljames

steph86 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just a quick question - My master-9 arrived today and i've hooked it up to my Master-7. I've got both units connected via ACSS so i'm aware the high and low gain feature isn't available, but is it correct that the volume on the m-9 should be at around 50 to power a pair of T50rp's or HE5-lE's or HE 400's?
> 
> ...


 
  
 My Master-6 is normally at 25-30 with my T1's, 17-26 with HD800's, 20-34 with LCD2.2's and 35-55 with HE6's.
 So 50 for your T50's seems pretty high. Maybe you just like it LOUD!


----------



## Steph86

nigeljames said:


> My Master-6 is normally at 25-30 with my T1's, 17-26 with HD800's, 20-34 with LCD2.2's and 35-55 with HE6's.
> So 50 for your T50's seems pretty high. Maybe you just like it LOUD!


 
 Oh.... something must be up then! could it be because i'm using the ACSS connection I have no control of the gain feature?
  
 Also it's getting quite hot - does your master 6 do the same?
  
 And when i'm using Foobar (KS) and adjusting the volume i'm getting small popping noises coming through the phones.
  
 Maybe I should ask Kingwa.


----------



## nigeljames

steph86 said:


> Oh.... something must be up then! could it be because i'm using the ACSS connection I have no control of the gain feature?
> 
> Also it's getting quite hot - does your master 6 do the same?
> 
> ...


 
  
 ACSS does produce a lower output than XLR but it does seem to be outputting less than it should be.
  
 There is no gain control on the M6 so it's like it's on high gain all the time but it only gets warm and never hot.


----------



## Steph86

nigeljames said:


> ACSS does produce a lower output than XLR but it does seem to be outputting less than it should be.
> 
> There is no gain control on the M6 so it's like it's on high gain all the time but it only gets warm and never hot.


 
 My m9 is getting very hot - even the side and front panels. I'll definitely email Kingwa see if i'm doing something wrong.


----------



## nigeljames

steph86 said:


> My m9 is getting very hot - even the side and front panels. I'll definitely email Kingwa see if i'm doing something wrong.


 
  
 Maybe it is designed differently from the M6 so that it will get hotter, it is a class A amp after all but better to ask Kingwa or other M9 users.
  
 How does it sound?


----------



## Clemmaster

steph86 said:


> My m9 is getting very hot - even the side and front panels. I'll definitely email Kingwa see if i'm doing something wrong.


 
  
 Could it be that the M9 has a "super-exponential" volume curve and the Master-6 has a linear one? In that case the steps in volume should be rather small in the lower range (to allow good volume precision with sensitive headphones) and should become higher and higher as the volume increases.
 The HE-5LE need lots of gain too, their sensitivity is around 87.5dB! The HE-400 should be more efficient, though.


----------



## tim3320070

The case is meant to get hot, the case is the heat sink. Also, are you using your headphones balanced or single ended? Single ended will have roughly half the volume output.


----------



## Steph86

clemmaster said:


> Could it be that the M9 has a "super-exponential" volume curve and the Master-6 has a linear one? In that case the steps in volume should be rather small in the lower range (to allow good volume precision with sensitive headphones) and should become higher and higher as the volume increases.
> The HE-5LE need lots of gain too, their sensitivity is around 87.5dB! The HE-400 should be more efficient, though.


 
 It could be, i've emailed Kinga asking him about my concerns. tomorrow i'll get the m-7 and m-9 via RCA to see if that makes a difference.


----------



## Steph86

tim3320070 said:


> The case is meant to get hot, the case is the heat sink. Also, are you using your headphones balanced or single ended? Single ended will have roughly half the volume output.


 
 Hi Tim,
  
 I've tried both balanced and SE - same sort of thing really.  The unit has been on for around 3 hours, and for the last 2 the temperature of the casing has been hot, but stable. So i guess you're right this is the way it's supposed to run.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

If i may ask a couple of questions. And offer some advice.

First off if you can measure the temp in cel and farenhight include this in the email. 
1-Next the M9 is total class A amp so it draws the same power if used or at idel . So 55 watts of heat just burning. 
2-Next maybe a dumb question and not being rude. Are you stacking units ? 
3-Next is the unit in a cabinet? 
4-Next what is the ambient temp there ?
5- are you in preamp mode or headphone mode. Preamp will make less heat.
6- are you saying there is no control to volume at all? With headphones ?
7- the headphones must be balanced output from M9 or its half power.
Al


----------



## Clemmaster

It's actually 1/4 the power if used single ended.
  
 Also, what is "very hot"?


----------



## tim3320070

steph86 said:


> Hi Tim,
> 
> I've tried both balanced and SE - same sort of thing really.  The unit has been on for around 3 hours, and for the last 2 the temperature of the casing has been hot, but stable. So i guess you're right this is the way it's supposed to run.


 
 It's not the same at all- have you tried the headphones you mentioned with the 4-pin XLR jack? If those are plugged into the single ended jack, the volume levels you talk about seem about right.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Clem your so slick. 1/2 of each side = 1/4. Brilliant. 

Al


----------



## Clemmaster

alrainbow said:


> Clem your so slick. 1/2 of each side = 1/4. Brilliant.
> 
> Al


 
  
 Lol, no that's not the reasoning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Single ended is 1/2 the voltage of Balanced.
 Power is derived as P = V²/R (R being the load), so: PSE =  (VSE)² / R =  (½ VBAL)² / R = ¼ (VBAL)² / R = ¼ PBAL
  
 Power is additive, so each side gets 1/4 the power but the resulting power is not 1/8, it's still 1/4.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Yes I forgot the p2. I forgot. And I also did not realize you meant it literally . You would never know I'm LISC electric al PE and electrical contractor sssshhhh. Don't tell anyone.


----------



## drez

Iirc m9 has low and high power, low and high gain, exponential volume, and acss also has less gain. Many variables. I would expect m9 to run hotter than m6 which runs warm, so I would not be surprised if it ran hot. I think its normal for the sound to drop out while changing volume with music playing. Nothing sounds worrying to me.


----------



## Articnoise

steph86 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just a quick question - My master-9 arrived today and i've hooked it up to my Master-7. I've got both units connected via ACSS so i'm aware the high and low gain feature isn't available, but is it correct that the volume on the m-9 should be at around 50 to power a pair of T50rp's or HE5-lE's or HE 400's?
> 
> ...


 

 Don’t worry the case gets hot (but not so hot you get burned) and the volume is exponential like Clemmaster says. I play my LCD3 on my Master 9 (low gain) on 40-50 in balanced mood and need to go up to like 50-60 on Hifiman HE500 in SE. I don’t have an Audio gd dac and therefore no ACSS.


----------



## Clemmaster

How do you like the M9?


----------



## Articnoise

clemmaster said:


> How do you like the M9?


 

 I love it =)
  
 The Master 9 have now pushed more than 200 hours and I really love the sound from it. My imprecision is that It’s more extend in both the bas and treble, it’s much more dynamic and have a fuller sound then my Soloist with the LCD 3 and Hifiman HE 500.
  
 The tonality is really good in my set up, with a rich and colorful presentation that have a warm sound then it’s on the record, but I wouldn’t say that it coloured. The transparency and resolution is good, but will probably be even better with a more refined IC like Audioquest sky. I maybe have one coming next week.
  
 The sound has changed a little during the time I have had it at home. The depth in the sound stage is a bit deeper, the overall sound is fuller, more refined and organic now. The initial little bit of harshness in the high treble is now gone. I would say that is the musicality what have changed the most, maybe 10 % better and technicality with about 5 %. Al this from an already high level of musicality and technicality on the Master 9. 
  
 The Master 9 is IMHO clearly superior to my Burson Soloist and Graham Slee Solo ultra linear diamond edition on everything. Regarding dynamic much better.
  
 My system: Jriver ---Audiophilleo 2 with pure power---Hegel HD 20---Audioquest panther---Master-9 --- Q cable french silk ---Audeze LCD 3/Hifiman He 500. I also have 4 power cords from LessLoss and a power strip from Furetech.


----------



## undersys

articnoise said:


> Don’t worry the case gets hot (but not so hot you get burned) and the volume is exponential like Clemmaster says. I play my LCD3 on my Master 9 (low gain) on 40-50 in balanced mood and need to go up to like 50-60 on Hifiman HE500 in SE. I don’t have an Audio gd dac and therefore no ACSS.


 
 I run ACSS and Master 9 with LCD3's (balanced) running around 40-50 as well.


----------



## Steph86

alrainbow said:


> If i may ask a couple of questions. And offer some advice.
> 
> First off if you can measure the temp in cel and farenhight include this in the email.
> 1-Next the M9 is total class A amp so it draws the same power if used or at idel . So 55 watts of heat just burning.
> ...


 

 Hi al,
  
 2 - both units are stacked on top of eachother - M9 on top of M7 but i'm using the supplied stick on insulation buttons on each foot to raise.
 3 - the unit is not in a cabinet
 4 - I'd guess its around 40 degrees stable
 5 - Headphone mode - I can't use preamp mode to listen to headphnes right? I switch to pre amp mode to play music through my stereo amp. Which leads me to another questions am i supposed to have the stereo amp on full volume and control from the m9 or have the m9 on full volume and control from the stereo amp.
 6 - I have control of the headphones, i'm just getting a popping sound when I'm adjusting the volume (through foobar only (KS)


----------



## Steph86

Ahh - I just had a response from Kingwa, some questions we've already covered but it seems like my m9 is okay - only thing I have to try and fix is the popping noise i'm getting in Foobar (KS)
  
1 – the gain switch doesn’t seem to be making any difference to the level of the sound---------Yes, the ACSS is have the standard design so don't want change the gain, the RCA and XLR may have different level from other brands, so have the gain control can easy cooperate with other brands.
2 – with the most of my headphones I need to have the volume setting to around 50 is this correct – t50rp – he5le-he400---------The Master 9 have the exponent volume control, in the first 50 steps volume is very low for different sensitivity headphone and power amp easy control the volume.
3 – When I play music via foobar and KS I get popping noises through the headphones (this isn’t the clicking noises from the volume pot)------------Try different USB connect to the DAC, is the popping noise happen often?
4 – How hot is the master 9 supposed to get? Mine is getting very hot even the front and side panels? I am using a different power cable than the one provided could this be the reason?---------It is a pure class A amp so it is hot, but the temperature usually 50C on the chassis, don't worry this termperature  level, it is very low to the electric parts.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

I can reccomended this , but you do not have to listen to what I am saying. I do stack them but with about 4 inches of space between them and a smal boxer fan on the lower half unit witch ever one that is. In this way nothing gets hot just warm. When I did it as kingwa said , it was hot enough for me to smell the electronics cooking. To hot for me to use this way. Now this is just my opinion. And yes pick one volume control only all others should be turned up to max. Example would be to use the volume control of M9 only. Volume controls tend to rob you of audio performance .


----------



## Steph86

alrainbow said:


> I can reccomended this , but you do not have to listen to what I am saying. I do stack them but with about 4 inches of space between them and a smal boxer fan on the lower half unit witch ever one that is. In this way nothing gets hot just warm. When I did it as kingwa said , it was hot enough for me to smell the electronics cooking. To hot for me to use this way. Now this is just my opinion. And yes pick one volume control only all others should be turned up to max. Example would be to use the volume control of M9 only. Volume controls tend to rob you of audio performance .


 

 Hi - thanks for your help.  I don't have the space for any fans  I guess it's okay in the winter, but summer time is going to a problem. Funny because the M-7 doesn't get anywhere as hot as the M-9.
  
 I'll put volume full on my stereo amp and control from m-9 then.


----------



## drez

steph86 said:


> Hi - thanks for your help.  I don't have the space for any fans  I guess it's okay in the winter, but summer time is going to a problem. Funny because the M-7 doesn't get anywhere as hot as the M-9.
> 
> I'll put volume full on my stereo amp and control from m-9 then.


 
  
 Hmm if the popping noise occurs with only KS I would say it is likely a computer problem - latency spikes or not large enough buffer?  Most consumer operating systems are shocking in the amount of automated background tasks which can cause audio dropouts, but the biggest culprit is usually wireless network controller.


----------



## Steph86

drez said:


> Hmm if the popping noise occurs with only KS I would say it is likely a computer problem - latency spikes or not large enough buffer?  Most consumer operating systems are shocking in the amount of automated background tasks which can cause audio dropouts, but the biggest culprit is usually wireless network controller.


 

 Hi Drez,
  
 Thanks for your input, much appreciated. The strange thing is, before the m-9 arrived I was using the head-amp from my Audio gd Fun and never experienced any popping noise.  My pc is a 5k server PC with enough power to handle anything.  I'll play around with the buffer and also try asio/wasapi tonight when I get home.
  
 I can't see it being the wireless controller as when I'm using my desktop qobuz music streaming service i don't get this popping sound. I gues it's something I can live with as it's only present when adjusting the volume - every 3-5 volume steps it occurs when adjusting.


----------



## Clemmaster

articnoise said:


> I love it =)
> 
> The Master 9 have now pushed more than 200 hours and I really love the sound from it. My imprecision is that It’s more extend in both the bas and treble, it’s much more dynamic and have a fuller sound then my Soloist with the LCD 3 and Hifiman HE 500.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm definitely sold, then... Thanks for the feedback that matches what everybody else said.
  
 I'll have an EF-6 up for sale soon...


----------



## Steph86

I have more information regarding the popping noises from master 9.
 
I believe the issue is with the master 9 and not master 7 for following reasons:
 
1 – I have connected via RCA to audio gd Fun amp to use head-amp and there is no issue.
2 – I have tried 2 different USB cables – still no change
3 – I have tested via master-9 HH and PH and still get popping noise even through speakers.
4 – I have also tried connecting m9 and m7 via RCA instead of ACSS – still there
5 – Popping noise occurs when playing in foobar and also sound from any other application when audio playing eg youtube / qobuz. Etc
6 - Popping also occurs on KS / WASAPI / ASIO
 
The noise occurs only when adjusting the volume (not when it’s set) – it is more noticeable when I try to adjust the volume quickly up and down as the popping occurs in quick concession.
 
I decided to test if it also occurs when I move one volume increment very slowly ( eg +1 every 10 seconds) but still occurs.  The volume number when the popping happens is random depending on what song is playing. Eg:
 
I play “track 1” I hear popping noises at volume 40, 48, 52, 56, 60, 65, 69
 
I play “track 2” I hear at different volume numbers.
 
This is really strange? Any ideas what you think it could be? I hope there is nothing wrong with the unit  I can’t afford to send back for repair….
 
Shall I try and adjust the volume with the remote control also? I haven’t put the batteries in yet.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Ok sounds like your assessment is correct . Email kingwa or have you already done so ?

Al


----------



## ALRAINBOW

You can but to what end. It sounds like something in the volume control board. I am not sure but digital volume controls don't must while adjusting . At,least not one I have seen. Now I have two stepped volume controls that do that . But there stepped


----------



## Steph86

alrainbow said:


> Ok sounds like your assessment is correct . Email kingwa or have you already done so ?
> 
> Al


 
 I have emailed Kingwa with my findings... I so hope it doesn't have to go back! I await his response, will post once i hear something.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

Has anyone here who has a M9. Have any popping when changing the volume control. And the volume board is very simple to change out , if kingwa sends you one.

Al


----------



## Steph86

alrainbow said:


> Has anyone here who has a M9. Have any popping when changing the volume control. And the volume board is very simple to change out , if kingwa sends you one.
> 
> Al


 
 I'm not sure how many people here have purchased/received the new m9 with exponential volume control.


----------



## undersys

steph86 said:


> I'm not sure how many people here have purchased/received the new m9 with exponential volume control.


 
 I have got the m9 with the exponential volume control. (Had it since Monday, and getting daily use 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)
  
 I don't have any clicking/popping or anything when changing the volume via the front panel buttons or the IR remote.
 I don't adjust my volume on the O/S side at all.


----------



## ALRAINBOW

There you go , email kingwa. And see what he says . He is around now


----------



## drez

steph86 said:


> Hi Drez,
> 
> Thanks for your input, much appreciated. The strange thing is, before the m-9 arrived I was using the head-amp from my Audio gd Fun and never experienced any popping noise.  My pc is a 5k server PC with enough power to handle anything.  I'll play around with the buffer and also try asio/wasapi tonight when I get home.
> 
> I can't see it being the wireless controller as when I'm using my desktop qobuz music streaming service i don't get this popping sound. I gues it's something I can live with as it's only present when adjusting the volume - every 3-5 volume steps it occurs when adjusting.




I think this is normal operation of the volume control. It happens on my unit as well.


----------



## Clemmaster

drez said:


> I think this is normal operation of the volume control. It happens on my unit as well.



Wait, are the clicks in the headphones themselves (in which case: on both channels?) or is it just from the unit itself? In the latter case, it's the internal relays doing their job.
If it's only on one channel then something is weird.


----------



## blitzxgene

drez said:


> I think this is normal operation of the volume control. It happens on my unit as well.


 
  
 After reading a bit of this thread, my reference 10 does this as well at numerous volume points. I'm also of the impression (from some long forgot link to an article somewhere) that you should not control the volume through foobar unless it's re-sampling 16 bit material to 24 or higher. Something about the material losing bit depth and the dac receiving lower bit depth material. (16 bit stuff gets sent out as 15, 14, 13 bit etc. instead)
  
 Please correct me if i'm wrong, i'll be seeing if I can find that potentially imaginary article.


----------



## drez

clemmaster said:


> Wait, are the clicks in the headphones themselves (in which case: on both channels?) or is it just from the unit itself? In the latter case, it's the internal relays doing their job.
> If it's only on one channel then something is weird.




For me the unit itself clicks, and occasionally both channels.drop out.


----------



## undersys

My M9's volume nob makes a clicking sound as well, but this is now heard though the headphones its a noise from the unit it self.
  
 If i use the IR remote its dead silent.


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## drez

blitzxgene said:


> After reading a bit of this thread, my reference 10 does this as well at numerous volume points. I'm also of the impression (from some long forgot link to an article somewhere) that you should not control the volume through foobar unless it's re-sampling 16 bit material to 24 or higher. Something about the material losing bit depth and the dac receiving lower bit depth material. (16 bit stuff gets sent out as 15, 14, 13 bit etc. instead)
> 
> Please correct me if i'm wrong, i'll be seeing if I can find that potentially imaginary article.




IMO if you have a good volume control on your preamp then you should disable volume in the music software.


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## Steph86

Hi all,
  
 There appears to be some confusion, let me try and clarify.
  
 I'm experiencing popping noises from actual headphones/speakers when adjusting volume. I also get the clicking noises from the unit but that i'm aware is normal as it's the relay system.
  
 The popping occurs in both channels and happens only when I adjust the volume on the M-9.
  
 I never adjust the volume in my software or windows, only from the m-9.  I think Kingwa also thinks i'm refering to the clicking noises of the relay system but i'm not. I have emailed again to clarify.


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## Steph86

Hi all,
  
 So it seems this popping (break in the signal path) is normal according to Kingwa and has been discussed on head-fi previously. His response below:
  
_The relays volume not only have the machine click in the unit , but the relays points have break and close the signal path cause the click in the signal during change the volume, this matter have discuss in headfi long time ago and this is normal._
  
 I guess i'll have to just get used to hearing popping noises every few increments when adjusting the volume.
  
 Small trade off for the amazing sound quality i guess 
  
 What I find confusing is that some people in this thread are experiencing the popping nosie whilst others aren't - unless of course the people who say they aren't just can't hear it, but it's quite audibile IMO.
  
 After reviewing the last couple of pages people who hear the popping:
  

blitzxgene
drez
undersys
  
  
 People who don't:

ALRAINBOW


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## Kingwa

I know this is not gereral if the users first time use the relays based volume control system.
  
 Most products's volume port have applied the potentiometer have not any noise while change the volume, but the poteniometer is the worst volume control, usually have long wires connect to signal and imbalance exist .
  
 The better is the step switch volume port , most have 24 to 48 steps, it is have not imbalance , but too less steps, and the signal connect to the volume have long wires cause the sound degrade.
 And the steps volume port usually have same or even large level click noise in the signal than the relays based volume .
  
 The another better volume port is the hifi Logic chips based volume port,, it can install close the circuit and no imbalance, but the impedance of the Logic chips is large, cause the signal have through the impedance and less applied now. Usually this mode still have the click while change the volume .
  
 The relays have very low impedance in the relays and close the circuit , no imbalance, more steps , best in my mind .
 So in our products, the low range have the ALPS volume port, no click .
 High and mid range all with relays. More expensive, more complex design on the software  , but just for better responsed on the sound quality.
 Kingwa


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## Steph86

kingwa said:


> I know this is not gerenal if the users first time use the relays based volume control system.
> 
> Most products's volume port have applied the potentiometer have not any noise while change the volume, but the poteniometer is the worst volume control, usually have long wires connect to signal and imbalance exist .
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Kingwa,
  
 Thanks for clearing this up - and clarification! much appreciated. 1st Class customer service as always


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## ALRAINBOW

I did not mean I do not hear clicking , as I do not own a M9. I own a M8. And there is no clicking. I think I did I say that I have a dac that does cut the sound when changing volume .

Al


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## Steph86

alrainbow said:


> I did not mean I do not hear clicking , as I do not own a M9. I own a M8. And there is no clicking. I think I did I say that I have a dac that does cut the sound when changing volume .
> 
> Al


 
 Hi Al,
  
 Oh I see, I understand, sorry missunderstood. What dac do you use?


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## ALRAINBOW

That's fine np. 

Al


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## Articnoise

kingwa said:


> I know this is not gereral if the users first time use the relays based volume control system.
> 
> Most products's volume port have applied the potentiometer have not any noise while change the volume, but the poteniometer is the worst volume control, usually have long wires connect to signal and imbalance exist .
> 
> ...


 

 Nice explained Kingwa!
  
 I can hear the relays clicking from the volume control itself on my Master 9, but nothing through the headphones and no popping or drop out.
  
 I also have a Burson Soloist that has a step switch volume port. It have a larger level of click noise, fewer steps and a bit of popping and drop out then changing volume. Some people have reported that they after a while get some serious problems with the Soloist volume port and need to clean it. I have not experienced it with my and if I have understands it right it’s caused by dust in the port.
  
 I for one really like the Master 9’s relay based exponential volume and the remote, very user friendly and exact.


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## Clemmaster

I have noise in the EF-6 too and the steps are way too large (5dB) for me...


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## Articnoise

5 db steps are way too large for me. I like to be able to tune in the exact listing levels, which I can with booth the Soloist and Master 9. The volume on the 9 is just smoother and more user friendly IMO.


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## Steph86

articnoise said:


> Nice explained Kingwa!
> 
> I can hear the relays clicking from the volume control itself on my Master 9, but nothing through the headphones and no popping or drop out.
> 
> ...


 
 What i don't understand then is how you are not experiencing the popping through the headphones and I am?
  
 Is it purely down to luck depending on hour the units are put together whether you'd get one which make the popping noise or not?


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## Articnoise

Okay I have tried some more and I can some time, but only like every 5e time or so detect a very minor click through the headphones (still not really popping) then change from 40 to 39 and the same from 48 to 47. This never happens then I turn the volume up. 
  
 I don’t have any good explanation to this more than what I sometime detect as a very small relay clicking must be much higher in your M9, by reasons I don’t understands, and consequently make a popping sound. My Burson Soloist who has a higher level of click noise creates a bit of popping then changing volume. More so then going down than up.
  
 Is the popping sound very loud and do you get it then using the remote as well?


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## Steph86

articnoise said:


> Okay I have tried some more and I can some time, but only like every 5e time or so detect a very minor click through the headphones (still not really popping) then change from 40 to 39 and the same from 48 to 47. This never happens then I turn the volume up.
> 
> I don’t have any good explanation to this more than what I sometime detect as a very small relay clicking must be much higher in your M9, by reasons I don’t understands, and consequently make a popping sound. My Burson Soloist who has a higher level of click noise creates a bit of popping then changing volume. More so then going down than up.
> 
> Is the popping sound very loud and do you get it then using the remote as well?


 
 I haven't actually tested it with the remote control, i'll do so on the weekend.
  
 Regarding the level of the popping, it's dependent on the volume level, so when i'm adjusting between 0-30 it's not audible and then i start to hear it from 30+ and it gets louder and louder. as I go to 100. In all honesty it's not loud at all but I can still hear it, I guess it's because i'm not used to it.  Almost like a scratching noise.


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## Articnoise

I think I understand, sound exactly as the behavior on my Soloist. Do it happens both when you increase the volume and then you decrease the volume?
  
 I’m not a technician so this is pure speculation. Can it be that your volume pot suffer from some form of static electricity? Or some dust in the pot maybe? 
  
 Is your setup connected to the right phase? All your electronic should be connected to the same phase. I don’t know if it can make this popping sound, but it’s very important if you want to get the best sound.


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## Kingwa

We have ever applied the steps switch volume port, these ports have quite worst consistency , only less than 25% have low click sound across the siganl while turn the volume. But still louder than the relays based volume ports.
 Over 50% have the loud click noise make some people have scare .
 Around 10% can't appled because the terrible click noise.
  
 In some case of our test, turn the steps swich volume port slowly may have less click noise.
 If the noise a bit louder than while it's band new, may have  a lot dust go into the switch , want to clean by WD-40 or other clean oil.
  
 The relays volume port have not this matter, the dust can be never go into the relays because it is fully windtight .
 The relays was built by the best manufacturer in China , the manufacturer also do the OEM for Omron based on the buzz of the agent workers.
 It have long life than other volume ports like the potentiometer, steps switch .


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## undersys

I don't feel the click is that loud at all, especially if I am playing something a bit heaver sounding I can barely pick it.
 It sounds like a very small click noise, no scratching or popping or anything. Just like kingwa said.
  
 I Don't see the issue to be honest, and that's just my opinion.


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## M-13

I think it's very cool Kingwa (the designer) is explaining the volume control to us. Haha. Makes me want to get the Master 9 even more now.


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## ALRAINBOW

People go and check out the pictures on audio gd ,s website. Itnshows some production phots. They all have heavy coats on it must be freezing there. .

Al


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## Steph86

kingwa said:


> We have ever applied the steps switch volume port, these ports have quite worst consistency , only less than 25% have low click sound across the siganl while turn the volume. But still louder than the relays based volume ports.
> Over 50% have the loud click noise make some people have scare .
> Around 10% can't appled because the terrible click noise.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Kingwa - Thanks for breaking things down further. In your opinion from the relays you use in the Master-9 what % will incur the break in signal path (popping noises through headphones)? Or does every unit do it but just at different audible levels or maybe more frequently when adjusting the volume.
  
 I think the clicking from the actual relay is quite cool 
  
 I'll test the remote control tonight to see if that makes any difference to what i'm currently experiencing. I just haven't had a chance to unscrew the back plate to put the batteries in.


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## Kingwa

The relays we have two steps test before install on the board, 1st is test the electric connect if well, 2nd is rock it close the ear see if have lost sound from inside.
 The click in signal is very slight, most time can't hear but still depend on how many sensitivity headphones  connect .  It already is the one of lowest click sound steps volume port.
  
 It is not change the volume continuely as the potentiometer volume, it is steps so change the volume can here the signal change by steps.
  
 Some few steps have slight louder click sound because the resistors switch from few pcs to one pcs, not the relays matter.


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## ALRAINBOW

My MSB dac has a stepped attenuator it clicks and it cuts the sound when moving. So I would just enjoy a really good pre / headphone amp. 

Al


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## Theogenes

If any current Master 8 owners are interesting in upgrading to the Master 9 (or are looking to sell or trade their M-8 for whatever reason), please drop me a PM. I'm looking to pick one up before the end of the month. Thanks!


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## Theogenes

Well, I received my funds a bit more quickly than I anticipated, so I'm ready to purchase a Master 8 or 9 as we speak! I've had one member PM me about selling his Master 8, but he seems to have fallen off the map, so I'm still interested in picking one up. Anybody have a Master 8 or Master 9 they'd be interested in selling or trading away? Please drop me a PM!


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## ALRAINBOW

Hello I just responded and we will work it out tonight 
I have been working the weekend and am working right now 

So I will hit you back tonight after 6pm 
Ny time 
Thanks 
Al


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## Theogenes

alrainbow said:


> Hello I just responded and we will work it out tonight
> I have been working the weekend and am working right now
> 
> So I will hit you back tonight after 6pm
> ...


 
  
 Hey Al! No problem at all-- looking forward to hearing back from you! Talk to you this evening .


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## ALRAINBOW

Lol. Np talk later 

Al


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## mowglycdb

I was testing XLR vs ACSS (conecting NFB-1.32 to Master 8) , and I could hardly find a diference in quality. Maybe a little less clear, and a bit more noise.
  
 But XLR has much more gain ( I have it on low gain)  vs ACSS
  
 I compared volume levels and it would be something like this.
  
 XLR 31  = ACSS 40
 XLR 40  = ACSS 51
 XLR 70  = ACSS 90
  
 on high gain
  
 XLR 40 = ACSS 63  
  
  
 Interesting


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## ALRAINBOW

I have the M7 M8 combo and I never did test the two 
I just connected it with ACSS and left it alone 
Wow interesting 
Al


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## mowglycdb

Yeah, when I recieve the combo, I'll do the same thing,  but for people using HE-6 and want to drive them very loud, this may the way


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## brunk

Does anyone here have experience with the Master 1 preamp driving 10-20k loads by chance?


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## punit

brunk said:


> Does anyone here have experience with the Master 1 preamp driving 10-20k loads by chance?


 

 Sorry, not clear as to what do you mean by 10-20K load ?


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## brunk

punit said:


> Sorry, not clear as to what do you mean by 10-20K load ?


 
 Amplifier input impedance. Can it handle these low loads? Maybe I should email Kingwa?


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## punit

Yes, he normally replies same day or max by next day .


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## brunk

punit said:


> Yes, he normally replies same day or max by next day .


 
 Thanks Punit


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## brunk

Update for future reference:
  
 Kingwa said the Master 1 can handle loads low as 600 ohms without problems. So anyone searching for this answer in the future will find it here


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## Theogenes

Utterly bizarre note: I have been listening to my HE-6 from the Master 8 a lot recently, and as I was listening today I couldn't shake the feeling that something sounded wrong. The only concrete things I could figure out in terms of what was off was vocals sounded a bit 'cupped,' and the left channel seemed slightly recessed, where I didn't recall them sounding that way before. And although I still can't fully explain what the problem was, I did figure out what caused the issue, at least: I had the HE-6 plugged into the 4-pin XLR (no problem there) at the same time I had the LCD-2 plugged into the SE output. As soon as I unplugged the LCD-2, everything went right back to normal. Weird, huh? 
  
 I thought I'd read before that the M-8 would be able to drive multiple headphones at once without any problems, but my experience was different. Anybody else have a similar experience, or any idea why this happened? I had hoped to be able to have multiple headphones plugged in at once for a few inconsequential reasons (multiple friends could listen at once, be able to quickly and easily compare multiple headphones, and burn in several cans at once), so it's not going to be the end of the world, but it's worth noting. 
  
 I'd be interested in any light someone could shed on this! 
  
 Btw, thus far, the M-8 is an extremely impressive headphone amp, and an even better preamp... Wow!!


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## ALRAINBOW

Good morning 

I am glad you are enjoying the M8. It is a good unit, I think leaving a second headphone is just a bad idea. Even if they were the same headphone , and one BAL and one not SE

they would not be equally amped the same as one is getting both sides of the amp output and one only one side.
Al


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## Theogenes

alrainbow said:


> Good morning
> 
> I am glad you are enjoying the M8. It is a good unit, I think leaving a second headphone is just a bad idea. Even if they were the same headphone , and one BAL and one not SE
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey Al! Yeah, apparently you're right-- running multiple headphones out of the Master-8 is a big no-no. I could've sworn that I read somewhere that it wasn't a problem, but maybe that was with less demanding cans than the HE-6 and LCD-2. Anyway, when not driving a pile of headphones at once, it's pretty impressive what the M-8 is capable of. Absolutely loving it with the HE-6 right now...


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## holyindian

are people in here using the master 9 with the hd800? how does this amp compare to the tubes such as the Cavalli audio liquid glass or even the BA? Anyone compared these three amps?


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## mowglycdb

Yes , there's one review made about Mater-9 and a few headphones, if I recall well  HD800 is a good mix with Master-9


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## dan.gheorghe

Guys, have you seen the new products from Audio-GD? Including the M9 successor?
  
 http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/HE-9/HE-9EN.htm


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## bigfatpaulie

dan.gheorghe said:


> Guys, have you seen the new products from Audio-GD? Including the M9 successor?
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/HE-9/HE-9EN.htm


 
  
 I was looking at that the other day.  It is certainly impressive looking - inside and out.  
  
 (When are you getting yours? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## dan.gheorghe

bigfatpaulie said:


> I was looking at that the other day.  It is certainly impressive looking - inside and out.
> 
> (When are you getting yours?
> 
> ...


 
 Seriously? I hope soon ) Have to sell some stuff first


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## bigfatpaulie

dan.gheorghe said:


> Seriously? I hope soon ) Have to sell some stuff first


 
  
 It's that the name of the game 
  
 I wonder how much of it is a reaction to the Rag.


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## mowglycdb

The only thing that scares me is the Wattage usage from 48 W to 95W :O, in a cold winter it must keep your room warm xp


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## drez

I think another consideration might be whether to use one of these HE integrated power regenerator components or to use an external power filter/regenerator. 
  
 Other components such as source and transport will need to be plugged into a separate power conditioner.
  
 Maybe somehow it is better to have the power filter closer to the component, but this would be a question better answered by Kingwa.
  
 I can see possible efficiencies either way though.  With separate filter the mechanical vibrations and electromagnetic field from the big transformers are isolated, and all components can receive power with similar phase timing, if that is important.  Physically I cannot fit two HE-350 side by side on my rack in any case.
  
 Additionally, as I recall PSAudio's power regenerators recommend separate circuits for each regenerator due to noise dumped back onto the line.  Not sure if this will be the case with these products.


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## goobicii

What is difference between master 8 and 9? Also anybody compared 8 or 9 against Mjolnir?


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## mtoc

Master 1 is the M5/6/7 without the HP amps, and if you change the FET (in the M5/6/8) to the K170/J74 (4 prs) & C2240/A970 (also 4 prs), that's the M1.
  
 Why he killed the 5/6/8? Cos M9's preamp isn't as good as M1. If we mod the 5/6/8 (the preamp part which mentioned above), then nobody would buy the M9.
  
 Why? Cos, the HP amp in the M9, well, that's essentially the same one in the 5/6/8.


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## Nicholas Seltzer

Sorry to resurrect an ancient thread. I'm thinking about a Master 1. Can someone who has one please give me their thoughts on the device and let me know whether or not it has a Home Theater Bypass mode?

Thanks so much.


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## borrego

Nicholas Seltzer said:


> Sorry to resurrect an ancient thread. I'm thinking about a Master 1. Can someone who has one please give me their thoughts on the device and let me know whether or not it has a Home Theater Bypass mode?
> 
> Thanks so much.



I have a Master 1 and I can confirm it does not have a bypass mode. An option will be to have a pair of XLR/RCA split cable tailor made. I think split cables would degrade sound less than internal relay switch + 2 pairs of cables + sockets/plugs.


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