# Fiio E7 or Cmoy bass boost v2.02



## jack95

Was originally thinking of getting the cmoy but the E7 also looks like a good pick. Im not sure which one to get and if you guys could help me thatd be great. By the way i will be using these with my ipod classic and my ATH-M50s


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## OperatorPerry

I would also like to know.


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## Anaxilus

Cmoy.  The E7 is said to be pretty much worthless unless you use the DAC input only.


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## roker

Illmatic is a great album.


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## Deep Funk

Quote:


roker said:


> Illmatic is a great album.


 
  Indeed...  I will skip the E7 for now though. I would be a waste of money at the moment.


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## zero7525

For the same price, you can get better amps like the Ibasso T3, the Mini 3, etc. The cmoy and E7 will soon have you wanting to get a better amp. Buy the best you can buy and stick with it for a while. Or buy the cheapest (Fiio E5) so you can get a taste of what's to come when you upgrade.


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## Anaxilus

How is a T3 the same price as the Cmoy 2.02?  The Cmoy is $65, the T3 is double.  I haven't heard the new Cmoy but it looks rather impressive for the price.  I have the E5 and M50's, its an ok pairing if you don't push the M50's much.  The E5 will distort eventually and muddy up the sound.


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## Jack C

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Cmoy.  The E7 is said to be pretty much worthless unless you use the DAC input only.


 

 I don't know why this viewpoint is perpetuated in this forum but it is simply not true.  There has been quite a few threads discussing this with a lot of good information in them. 
   
  Jack


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## zero7525

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> How is a T3 the same price as the Cmoy 2.02?  The Cmoy is $65, the T3 is double.  I haven't heard the new Cmoy but it looks rather impressive for the price.  I have the E5 and M50's, its an ok pairing if you don't push the M50's much.  The E5 will distort eventually and muddy up the sound.


 

 Sorry, I only meant the Fiio. The cmoy maybe good, if you would want to save up and get this amp, go for it. I'd go for the Ibasso though, personally. If you search stuff up, maybe you can find good information between the cmoy and the T3 and whether it is worth it to spend a little more for the $100+ amps.


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





jack c said:


> I don't know why this viewpoint is perpetuated in this forum but it is simply not true.  There has been quite a few threads discussing this with a lot of good information in them.
> 
> Jack


 

 Where do you think I read that the HO on the E7 is negligible?  Granted I haven't used the E7 but from posters I am familiar with and various threads there are numerous claims that the HO on the E7 offers little if any amplification whereas the DAC side works well.  I can only report what I have read, if someone wants to provide links to the OP to the contrary feel free.


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## kmhaynes

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Where do you think I read that the HO on the E7 is negligible?  Granted I haven't used the E7 but from posters I am familiar with and various threads there are numerous claims that the HO on the E7 offers little if any amplification whereas the DAC side works well.  I can only report what I have read, if someone wants to provide links to the OP to the contrary feel free.


 
  That was pretty much my experience with the E7.  I don't use a DAC because I don't listen off computer that much -- but I did try it and it is loud and powerful (possibly because the computer output is already pretty loud?).  
   
  But as far as an amp it just didn't have enough power, IMO.  The volume control goes from 0 to 60.  Until you reach 50, the volume was lower than my source, whether Zune30 or Fuze.  That gave me 51-60 to get a bit more volume to drive my RE0, and it just wasn't enough power to warrant having it.  The bass boost was negligible on setting 1, OK on setting 2, and the treble was cut on setting 3 (same as bass boost on the E5).  I returned it after one week.


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## Jack C

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Where do you think I read that the HO on the E7 is negligible?  Granted I haven't used the E7 but from posters I am familiar with and various threads there are numerous claims that the HO on the E7 offers little if any amplification whereas the DAC side works well.  I can only report what I have read, if someone wants to provide links to the OP to the contrary feel free


 

 Well, these same threads you referred to also indicated that using the line out or LOD from a audio source provides plenty of volume. So it's not just the DAC that works well in the E7 as you've claimed here.  Even in cases where the user is limited to using the headphone output from a source, the source volume can be set sufficiently high to ensure a good signal quality and the E7 can then be used to provide superior power amplification to the headphones.
   
  The only case where the E7 is not a good match, is when a user is trying to get more volume out of a source and the only thing he has access to is a weak headphone output. I am not making light of this situation, but this is quite a narrowly defined group that doesn't represent the majority of portable headphone amp users willing to spend $100 just on an amplifier.
   
  Jack


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## Jack C

I wanted to illustrate the above points with an actual example of how the E7 can help improve the sound from a player's headphone output:
   
  Take the Cowon D2 player's output - suppose you have a 16ohm headphone, here's the performance you can expect:
   
  http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Single_Players/Cowon%20D2%20-%2016%20Ohm%20Load.htm
   
  I am unsure of the E7's input impedance, but suffice to say it is higher than 600ohms. Presenting the D2 with a 600ohm load gives you the following performance:
   
  http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Single_Players/Cowon%20D2%20-%20600%20Ohm%20Load.htm
   
  You get a significant boost in signal quality across the measurements in terms of frequency response, noise, distortion, crosstalk, and IMD. Just to be thorough, here's the D2's performance into "no load:
   
  http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons_%28No_Loads%29/Cowon%20D2-O2%20-%20No%20Loads.htm
   
  The above graph actually shows two poings: 1) there is again more raw performance from the D2's headphone output at no load versus 600ohm load, the E7 's input impedance is closer to no load rather than 600Ohm, if its input is standard 10k Ohms. 2) the graphs show the expected increase in performance across the board as the D2's volume is increased, most significantly an increase of 12dB in signal to noise ratio! This is what I was referring to when I wrote in my previous post that "the source volume can be set sufficiently high to ensure a good signal quality".
   
  I couldn't find a RMAA plot for a production E7 quickly, so here's one based on a pre-production sample:
   
  http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Various/FiiO%20E7%20%28Aux%20vs.%20USB,%20Vol.%2060,%20No%20Bass%20Levels,%20Var.%20Loads%29.htm
   
  As can be seen, the E7 is not nearly as sensitive to load changes as the D2, thus giving you far superior signal to a 16ohm headphone versus directly from the D2's headphone jack.  Using the E7 following the D2's headphone output gives substantial improvements in sound quality, even though the ultimate volume may only be up to 4dB louder. I believe this is the true fundamental benefit of a separate headphone amp: superior quality amplification, not just more amplification.
   
  Jack


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## Anaxilus

Narrowly defined group eh.  There seems to be a sizable number or threads and posts to the contrary.  I've seen quite a few than say their $20 E5 performs better than the E7 and have reverted back.  I'm willing to bet real money the $65 Cmoy v2.02 kills the $100 E7 whether using the headphone out, line out or whatever non DAC related out you can conceive of.  I really don't understand what your point is.  From your own words it sounds like the Cmoy is better than the E7 and cheaper to boot.  So why would the OP want an E7 if they aren't going to use the DAC?


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## ExpatinJapan

I went for the ibassoT3 myself, getting the E7 seemed like a step down.


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## Jack C

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Narrowly defined group eh.  There seems to be a sizable number or threads and posts to the contrary.  I've seen quite a few than say their $20 E5 performs better than the E7 and have reverted back.  I'm willing to bet real money the $65 Cmoy v2.02 kills the $100 E7 whether using the headphone out, line out or whatever non DAC related out you can conceive of.  I really don't understand what your point is.  From your own words it sounds like the Cmoy is better than the E7 and cheaper to boot.  So why would the OP want an E7 if they aren't going to use the DAC?


 

 Anaxilus,
   
  The point of my posts are not to compare the E7 to another amp, but to point out the inaccuracies in your assertion that the E7 is only good when also used as a DAC. I can appreciate that we are all trying to help one another, especially since most of these products are only available online so there are very few chances for someone to try something in person before making a purchase. I am certain your desire to point out issues you perceived with a product in order to prevent someone from potentially making a bad purchase is rooted in good intentions. At the same time I hope you are receptive to the evidence that I've provided.
   
  There are different amplifier products on the market precisely because people have different needs. Depending on specific needs, the E7 is not always the better choice. Isn't this obvious?
   
  Jack


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## JamesFiiO

Very sorry, although it is not so suitable for me in here, but just want to say:
   
  1, We will increase the gain from the third batch of E7 ! the increasement is about 2.5 dB !
   
  2, The design target of E7 is USB/DAC, and as all you can see, the headphone amplifier inside is similar with E5, so if you have an E5, and just want to use E7 as an amp, you don't need
   
      to buy an E7, although most of our user say the SQ of E7 is better than E5 because the OP is change from OP2338 to AD8692;
   
  3, We have a plan to develop a higher class headphone amplifier, it may have higher gain , and higher SQ,  we are not trying to compare with other brand,  but it will absolutely  better
   
     than E5/E7 in SQ
   
  4, Thanks Jack-Micca, the useful of amp not means volume boost, it is about SQ! I think people can read the thread , it can help user learn more about how the amp help increase SQ
   
      in technology!
   
  5, Any advise and criticize is welcome!
   
  B.R
   
  James from FiiO


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## Anaxilus

Nice reply!  I've used your E3 and E5.  Look forward to hearing this new creation, sounds exciting!
   
  Gotta love a manufacturer willing to respond so quickly and openly.


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## ExpatinJapan

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> 2, The design target of E7 is USB/DAC, and as all you can see, the headphone amplifier inside is similar with E5, so if you have an E5, and just want to use E7 as an amp, you don't need
> 
> to buy an E7, although most of our user say the SQ of E7 is better than E5 because the OP is change from OP2338 to AD8692;
> 
> ...


 
  ^This is the essential info here.


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## zero7525

Very essential info, I've been wondering what was the opamp of the E5/E7.
 And Jack, very nice job on providing your info to support your statement. That info for the D2 and how amps can improve the SQ of a headphone out and not just a line out, is very helpful.


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## JoetheArachnid

Dang it. I was all ready to buy an E7 and now I find that the new batch will be better. Do I wait, or do I leap in and get the most recent batch anyway? Chances are we won't have any third batch ones in the UK for a while.


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## no_mas_123

I'm not familiar with the other amps(too new at this) but the cmoy I have had problems with gain using the HPO of my iPod classic.  Both on low and high gain.  Using it with the fiio lod brought the gain to where it should be.


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## lilkoolaidman

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Very sorry, although it is not so suitable for me in here, but just want to say:
> 
> 1, We will increase the gain from the third batch of E7 ! the increasement is about 2.5 dB !
> 
> ...


 

 Wait, so, since I bought the E7 recently, I don't get the superior model? I think you should have an upgrade price for people who already bought the original E7. Also, I use the DAC, so that is useful for me, but I also use it with an LOD on my iPod. It sounds good, but am I really just using an E5?


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## Anaxilus

Quote:  





> am I really just using an E5?


 

 No, it clearly says the opamp is different.  I'll leave the rest of query to others.  The whole E7 discussion isn't even of interest to me.  Unsubscribing.


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## Kibble Fat

I like how Anaxilus is able to bash the E7 without ever having heard it.  If all you're going to do is regurgitate other peoples' impressions from other threads, please just post the links. 
   
  Go DIY and build yourself a Mini3 for $70.  Right now I'm looking for a commercially available amp under $100 for a friend of a friend so these threads are helpful.  With work and school I don't have time to order & build a Mini3 for him.  :\


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





kibble fat said:


> I like how Anaxilus is able to bash the E7 without ever having heard it.  If all you're going to do is regurgitate other peoples' impressions from other threads, please just post the links.
> 
> Go DIY and build yourself a Mini3 for $70.  Right now I'm looking for a commercially available amp under $100 for a friend of a friend so these threads are helpful.  With work and school I don't have time to order & build a Mini3 for him.  :\


 

 Bashing?  Funny, everything I said was substantiated by the maker of the E7.  In fact they are making an 'improved' version due to the concerns of the unit.  Why should I search and post links when we had 3 separate threads on the issue.  If you don't like how I try to help people then use the ignore function.  I know it works because I have you on it.  Go whine to someone else who cares.  Shoo fly.


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## kmhaynes

I had the E7 for about 10 days and found that as an amp, it DID NOT have the power you would expect.  I've stated before that the digital volume ranged from 01 to 60 -- that's a huge numeric range, but when pairing the E7 with my Zune 30, I had to push the E7 volume to 50 before it equaled the Zune 30 headphone out volume.  Everything below 50 was a cut in volume compared to the Zune volume.  That left me 10 steps (51-60) to generate any volume above the Zune 30.  The SQ compared to the Zune HO was a bit cleaner and crisper, but not tons.  And the bass boost was OK at position 2 (position 1 was barely noticeable), and position 3 did the boost bass/cut highs trick the E5 does.
   
  So, as an amp alone it wasn't much for the price.


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## Endless

The cMoy's were the best investments i've spent in this hobby so far. Not only does it drive my RE0's giving it the bass that it needs (pfft RE-Zeros), it can also drive my HD 650s quite decently. The bass boost is also a great feature that boosts the bass while leaving all the details of my RE0's still intact. One criticism is that the Altoids box gets scratched easily in my pocket, but that's to be expected.
   
   
  +1 for cMoy BB 2.02. No regrets.


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## Mad Max

Quote: 





lilkoolaidman said:


> Wait, so, since I bought the E7 recently, I don't get the superior model? I think you should have an upgrade price for people who already bought the original E7. Also, I use the DAC, so that is useful for me, but I also use it with an LOD on my iPod. It sounds good, but am I really just using an E5?


 

 You can  always roll opamps in the E7 for  even better sound.


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## ClieOS

If the goal is just to get more volume out, I am pretty sure a CmoyBB can do a better job. However, amping is not about getting loud volume (or coloration), but getting the control of power / current reserve / voltage swing for the headphone to take benefit of / perform better. I won't call the increase of gain as 'improve version', as setting higher gain introduce more potential for distortion, which is the first thing to avoid in any amping. Just because It is done on request doesn't mean it is actually better. To me, the only thing that really needs to be improved is its transparency, a gain switch will be very nice but it is not the priority since the majority of IEM / earbud out there doesn't really need that much power to begin with.


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





clieos said:


> If the goal is just to get more volume out, I am pretty sure a CmoyBB can do a better job. However, amping is not about getting loud volume (or coloration), but getting the control of power / current reserve / voltage swing for the headphone to take benefit of / perform better. I won't call the increase of gain as 'improve version', as setting higher gain introduce more potential for distortion, which is the first thing to avoid in any amping. Just because It is done on request doesn't mean it is actually better. To me, the only thing that really needs to be improved is its transparency, a gain switch will be very nice but it is not the priority since the majority of IEM / earbud out there doesn't really need that much power to begin with.


 

 While I agree an amp can do what you say and the E7 can apparently do that to a degree, the primary function of an amp is amplification.  That means to amplify the power and signal of the source.  Conditioning the signal is a secondary benefit and tends toward being a line conditioner more than an amplifier.  If you can do both then that's ideal.  The argument just doesn't hold IMO when the E7 used as a DAC has a higher gain than the HO.  I'm sure this discrepancy is intentional in the design, and that's fine.  I just don't think consumer expectations are in line with what you are defining as amplification.  What about the ER4-S at 100ohms?  You really want to tell them sorry your IEM wasn't designed for our amp?


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## ClieOS

If amplification is the primary function, than an E3 or Boostaroo can do that just fine, what is the point of buying a more expensive amp? There are more to just amplification, thus that is why some amp are better / more expensive than other. Even with the same gain factor, a 3MOVE will still sound better than a T3D, and a T3D will still sound better than an E7 - it has nothing to do with how much the signal has been amplified, but the difference / refinement in control.
   
  Also, E7 gain factor is set by the power amp chip and it is the same for both analog-in as well as DAC, so there is not such thing as different gain on analog-in vs. DAC. The difference is that the DAC has a better / more powerful output that most DAP's headphone-out, simply on the fact that it is a line-level signal while DAP's HO isn't. Crap-in-crap-out is just the basic principle. I never find E7 volume to be not enough when I use it with my Fuze's LO (20/60 is the regular volume). If you really think about it, most who connect their iPod / iMod / diyMod via LOD to an amp will never likely need the extra amplification (*louder volume). Even at zero gain, the maximum volume on the amp will be at the same level as line-level. Unless you are using a very very difficult to drive headphone, the chance is you are not going to max out on the amp (which is the same as connecting the headphone directly to LO) and thus you do not need any amplification on the signal level at all. I do have ER4S so I can speak from personal experience that I can drive it to sufficient loudness with just my Fuze's HO. What an amp (via Fuze LO) provides is the extra juice / voltage swing to turn it alive, at the same listening volume. You will be wrong to assume the E7 can't drive ER4S to more than sufficient volume, as along as you can provide a decent source at the front. Perhaps what FiiO didn't anticipate is that many user doesn't quite have a good source with decent output power, thus a gain switch will be used to get more volume out.
  
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> While I agree an amp can do what you say and the E7 can apparently do that to a degree, the primary function of an amp is amplification.  That means to amplify the power and signal of the source.  Conditioning the signal is a secondary benefit and tends toward being a line conditioner more than an amplifier.  If you can do both then that's ideal.  The argument just doesn't hold IMO when the E7 used as a DAC has a higher gain than the HO.  I'm sure this discrepancy is intentional in the design, and that's fine.  I just don't think consumer expectations are in line with what you are defining as amplification.  What about the ER4-S at 100ohms?  You really want to tell them sorry your IEM wasn't designed for our amp?


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## Anaxilus

So the DAC section is louder than the HO section.  The HO section is barely louder than the source.  Gotcha..


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## ClieOS

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> So the DAC section is louder than the HO section.  The HO section is barely louder than the source.  *Gotcha*..


 

 Apparently not.
   
  The gain factor for both the DAC and the source are the same. The DAC input is louder than the most analog output from various DAP - that is the point. If you have a source that has output higher than the DAC output, then E7 will be louder just as well.


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## lilkoolaidman

I don't see why people are complaining about volume. My E7 was able to drive my 580s at a volume of 40 (it goes up to 60). So either these people are using a HO of a source at a low volume. Or they listen really loud. I can also honestly say it sounds better than the HO of my iPod classic, which seems to be the point of an amplifier. From a scientific POV, amplification is simply a gain in the amplitude of a sound wave, but from a sound POV, it means better sound by unleashing, so to speak, the potential of a pair of headphones. I feel that the E7 achieves this with most headphones. Whether you like the E7 or not is HIGHLY subjective and relative (as is this whole hobby).


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## kmhaynes

Quote: 





lilkoolaidman said:


> I don't see why people are complaining about volume. My E7 was able to drive my 580s at a volume of 40 (it goes up to 60). So either these people are using a HO of a source at a low volume. Or they listen really loud. I can also honestly say it sounds better than the HO of my iPod classic, which seems to be the point of an amplifier. From a scientific POV, amplification is simply a gain in the amplitude of a sound wave, but from a sound POV, it means better sound by unleashing, so to speak, the potential of a pair of headphones. I feel that the E7 achieves this with most headphones. Whether you like the E7 or not is HIGHLY subjective and relative (as is this whole hobby).


 
  Are you using the E7 as an amp or DAC with your Senn 580s?  Using mine as an amp with my Zune 30, I had to turn the E7 all the way to 50 (out of 60) for the volume of the E7 to match the volume of the Zune, regardless of the volume of the Zune, which was probably 7 out of 15 or 16.  So the E7 was nearly maxed just equaling the volume of the source player.  At 60 out of 60, the E7 was only a bit louder than the Zune -- it wasn't amplifying by much.


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## ClieOS

First, I don't have the datasheet of the power amp with me now, but I think ~50/60 to equal the input volume is correct (or very near). The opamp controls volume by varying the gain factor and it is not fully linear. The way the opamp is designed, it will attenuate the volume first (in minimum volume) by reducing the gain under 1 then increase the gain to 3~4 (at max volume). Gain of 1 (equal loudness) is right around 50/60.
  
  Second, when you are amping the HO of a DAP, do try to max out the volume (w/o distortion). This way not only you get a stronger signal to amp, you are also getting better dynamic range (which is that main point). For a general recommendation, I will say 80%~90% is desirable as this is where most DAP has the max volume without distortion. If you have DAP with very clean output (Sansa Fuze / Clip+ for example), you can even max out the volume.
  Quote: 





kmhaynes said:


> Are you using the E7 as an amp or DAC with your Senn 580s?  Using mine as an amp with my Zune 30, I had to turn the E7 all the way to *50 (out of 60) for the volume of the E7 to match the volume of the Zune*, regardless of the volume of the Zune, *which was probably 7 out of 15 or 16*.  So the E7 was nearly maxed just equaling the volume of the source player.  At 60 out of 60, the E7 was only a bit louder than the Zune -- it wasn't amplifying by much.


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## Jack C

ClieOS is exactly right - when applied to a headphone output of a DAP, the key benefit of a headphone amp is not to provide volume amplification, but superior amplification. I illustrated this in post #13 in this thread:
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495707/fiio-e7-or-cmoy-bass-boost-v2-02#post_6781213
   
  The example illustrates how the E7 can significantly improve the quality of the sound from the headphone output of a DAP with real actual measurements.  If volume amplification was the goal, then what the listener would get is the same poor quality output, just louder.


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## kmhaynes

Quote: 





jack c said:


> ClieOS is exactly right - when applied to a headphone output of a DAP, the key benefit of a headphone amp is not to provide volume amplification, but superior amplification. I illustrated this in post #13 in this thread:
> 
> The example illustrates how the E7 can significantly improve the quality of the sound from the headphone output of a DAP with real actual measurements.  If volume amplification was the goal, then what the listener would get is the same poor quality output, just louder.


 
  I understand and agree.  But I also recognize the some listeners put volume amplification on an equal footing with superior (quality) amplification.  The E7 does certainly provide a clean quality output.  However, earlier someone was wanting input on how the E7 would drive higher impedance phones (Yuin PK1 or 2s, I think?), which I felt it would not quite have the power to help there -- but maybe was wrong about that, since I don't have any high impedance phones.


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## Anaxilus

Fiio is making a new version E7.  That says it all.  The rest is pointless semantic debate about what 'amplification' means.  Perhaps those happy w/ the current E7 should start a new thread or petition to ask Fiio to stop development of the V2 since its so obviously unnecessary.


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## Jack C

Quote: 





kmhaynes said:


> I understand and agree.  But I also recognize the some listeners put volume amplification on an equal footing with superior (quality) amplification.  The E7 does certainly provide a clean quality output.  However, earlier someone was wanting input on how the E7 would drive higher impedance phones (Yuin PK1 or 2s, I think?), which I felt it would not quite have the power to help there -- but maybe was wrong about that, since I don't have any high impedance phones.


 

 Having never tried the Yuin's, I don't know how the E7 will work with them. When driving my DT880/600 and DT990/600 phones, the E7 is only able to provide enough volume for relaxed listening. If someone is limited to using a headphone output that lacks volume in the first place, then the volume would be even lower.
   
  I think the current E7 design provides 4dB of gain, another 2.5dB would put it at 6.5dB. This makes the E7 that much more versatile as a device. Whether the additional 2.5 is considered "unnecessary" is up to individual application.
   
  Jack


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## ClieOS

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Fiio is making a new version E7.  That says it all.


 

 So by the same standard, JDS making of cMoyBB v2.02 makes v2.03 and future development 'unnecessary' as well? Perhaps a thread to tell JDS never to refine their product because how perfect it is now for some people? Or could we just assume any future development of cMoyBB is an definite indication of defect in v2.02 (or any previous version in the matter)? Hmmm...


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## cykoakustik

Quote: 





clieos said:


> So by the same standard, JDS making of cMoyBB v2.02 makes v2.03 and future development 'unnecessary' as well? Perhaps a thread to tell JDS never to refine their product because how perfect it is now for some people? Or could we just assume any future development of cMoyBB is an definite indication of defect in v2.02 (or any previous version in the matter)? Hmmm...


 

 Excellent point.
   
  But the cMoyBB is clearly advertised and labeled (on the circuit board) with a version number, i.e. [v2.02].  On the JDS Labs website, it's clearly shown what version is being sold.  There's a Revision History also.
   
  How about the E7?  How are we supposed to distinguish which is being purchased?  How can we be certain which one a person will get from a website or on eBay?
   
  Is FiiO going to clearly advertise it as version 2?  On the device itself and on the box?
   
  I was planning to purchase the E7, but thanks to this thread, I'm going to postpone my purchase.  Or I might just purchase directly a JDS Labs cMoyBB v2.02 or iBasso T3.


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## ClieOS

Who knows? I doubt they even finish any re-designing it yet, left alone any firm release date. I do know they are still trying to fulfill their current order, which should take them some time.
   
  On a side note, if you have money for a T3, goes for it. It is pretty big step up from both E7 and cmoy.
  
  Quote: 





cykoakustik said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> But the cMoyBB is clearly advertised and labeled (on the circuit board) with a version number, i.e. [v2.02].  On the JDS Labs website, it's clearly shown what version is being sold.  There's a Revision History also.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





clieos said:


> So by the same standard, JDS making of cMoyBB v2.02 makes v2.03 and future development 'unnecessary' as well? Perhaps a thread to tell JDS never to refine their product because how perfect it is now for some people? Or could we just assume any future development of cMoyBB is an definite indication of defect in v2.02 (or any previous version in the matter)? Hmmm...


 

 As usual you fail to see the forest thru the trees.  They are only making a new version w/ increased gain because of the complaints to which you have said are unjustified.  It was clear from Fiio's post this was not product progression but a specific response to complaints.  You continue to defend a product that even the manufacturer considers to be flawed for some reason.  Quite suspect.  Keep telling everyone not happy w/ the E7 that they don't know how to use it.  I guess they are just holding it wrong huh.  How about you just accept that some people don't like the product and move on.  I honestly don't care about the E7 either way.  I do care that some of the defense of it seems to have an agenda.  If I go shopping for a sports car and you sell me a luxury car I guess I shouldn't complain because what I was really after was comfort and not speed, I just wasn't smart enough to know it.  Thx.


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## ClieOS

And so are you. What is it defected or flawed about E7? Is it because there isn't enough gain that makes an amp defected? It surely isn't. I am not saying E7 is perfect, but it is functional and up to the spec, just not up to some of your expectation. You are the one that seems to be confused between the concept of 'flaw' and 'not meeting expectation'. If E7 has listed a gain of 7dB and only delivers 3~4dB, I will call it defected / flawed - yet it is not the case. If you are not happy about only having a small gain factor and like to voice your opinion, it is all okay for me. Will a selectable gain switch be helpful from the beginning? Sure it would. However, if someone feels that the volume is not enough only because (s)he has not used it in the optimum way, I would think my comment on the analog-in (DAP's HO vs. LO) might be of good help with them (I mean, how difficult it is to turn up the HO volume?). After all, it is pretty common knowledge (at least in Head-fi) that if you want to properly amp the HO, you should make sure the volume is higher on the DAP to get the best dynamic range. Why is there the sharing of such knowledge must be of any agenda or cynical purpose?
   
  A 150mph-top-speed sports car won't run up to 300mph even if you wish it can do it, nor does it must be flawed because the car maker now think they can modify the car due to popular demand to 300mph. Well it will be a big problem of false advertising _if _the car maker claims the car can run faster than it could before the modification, but they didn't. I certainly don't recall FiiO telling people that E7 has more than 3~4dB gain.
   
  On a side note, I think it is not a secret I am in regular talk (i.e. opinion and feedback) with FiiO (in fact, with a few other manufacturer as well). As to why a small gain is used on E7, the reason (as I was told during early development) being that it is more suitable to E7 targeted audience, the fast growing netbook user, considered that they most likely will not be using any hard-to-drive headphone (i.e. regular earbud and IEM) and mainly are looking for an upgrade from internal sound card. If the gain is too high, it will be difficult for people with sensitive headphone. Also, the same gain setting has been utilized on E5 and seems to work very well for FiiO so far. It is a product aims for the general public, not Head-fier. FiiO is just trying to make VW Golf level of products for the mass at most, not your sports or luxury car lover. If any people think FiiO can make cheap amp with magical properties, well it is just not going to happen. Amp is never the magic cure for SQ, and never will be. I don't care much about whether anyone really feels there must be an agenda behind what I have said, nor does it necessary means what I have posted is wrong. I am only here to explain my POV, ciao.
   
   
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> *As usual you fail to see the forest thru the trees*.  They are only making a new version w/ increased gain because of the complaints to which you have said are unjustified.  It was clear from Fiio's post this was not product progression but a specific response to complaints.  You continue to defend a product that even the manufacturer considers to be flawed for some reason.  Quite suspect.  Keep telling everyone not happy w/ the E7 that they don't know how to use it.  I guess they are just holding it wrong huh.  How about you just accept that some people don't like the product and move on.  I honestly don't care about the E7 either way.  I do care that some of the defense of it seems to have an agenda.  If I go shopping for a sports car and you sell me a luxury car I guess I shouldn't complain because what I was really after was comfort and not speed, I just wasn't smart enough to know it.  Thx.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





jack95 said:


> Was originally thinking of getting the cmoy but the E7 also looks like a good pick. Im not sure which one to get and if you guys could help me thatd be great. By the way i will be using these with my ipod classic and my ATH-M50s


 
   
  Original Post
   
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Cmoy.  The E7 is said to be pretty much worthless unless you use the DAC input only.


 
   
  My response
   
  Quote: 





clieos said:


> A 150mph-top-speed sports car won't run up to 300mph even if you wish it can do it, nor does it must be flawed because the car maker now think they can modify the car due to popular demand to 300mph. Well it will be a big problem of false advertising _if _the car maker claims the car can run faster than it could before the modification, but they didn't. I certainly don't recall FiiO telling people that E7 has more than 3~4dB gain.
> 
> On a side note, I think it is not a secret I am in regular talk (i.e. opinion and feedback) with FiiO (in fact, with a few other manufacturer as well). As to why a small gain is used on E7, the reason (as I was told during early development) being that it is more suitable to E7 targeted audience, the fast growing netbook user, considered that they most likely will not be using any hard-to-drive headphone (i.e. regular earbud and IEM) and mainly are looking for an upgrade from internal sound card. If the gain is too high, it will be difficult for people with sensitive headphone. Also, the same gain setting has been utilized on E5 and seems to work very well for FiiO so far. It is a product aims for the general public, not Head-fier. FiiO is just trying to make VW Golf level of products for the mass at most, not your sports or luxury car lover. If any people think FiiO can make cheap amp with magical properties, well it is just not going to happen. Amp is never the magic cure for SQ, and never will be. I don't care much about whether anyone really feels there must be an agenda behind what I have said, nor does it necessary means what I have posted is wrong. I am only here to explain my POV, ciao.


 

 Like I said, you continue to miss the point.  Thank you for agreeing with me and finally acknowledging the Cmoy is better at almost *half the price*  ($99 Micca store http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E7-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B003E6K1VK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1280948211&sr=8-1) of the E7 for the OPs intent.  Which is the VW Golf here?  Thx for completely misinterpreting the car analogy btw.


----------



## ClieOS

...and thanks for putting words in my mouth. In case you haven't notice, my OP wasn't replying to the first post but to the later discussion on volume. Well that seems like a good waste of time for me then, but before I leave the discussion: $65 / $85 =/= 0.5. Good day and have fun.


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## zest

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Anaxilus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> the Cmoy is better at almost *half the price*  ($99 Micca store http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E7-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B003E6K1VK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1280948211&sr=8-1) of the E7 for the OPs intent.


 
  You maybe didn't choose the right store, E7+mini to mini cable+free shipping for$84.58.


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## cykoakustik

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Who knows? I doubt they even finish any re-designing it yet, left alone any firm release date. I do know they are still trying to fulfill their current order, which should take them some time.
> 
> On a side note, if you have money for a T3, goes for it. It is pretty big step up from both E7 and cmoy.


 
   
  Seems like FiiO is making a change to the E7 based on whatever reason, customer complaints, detected design flaw, etc.
  Hopefully FiiO will make version 2 distinguishable from version 1 with proper labelling on the device and box.
  And a public press release to notify future customers of a change.
  Or it's going to be difficult and unfair to the consumer.
   
  Thank you for your recommendation for the T3.  I'll definitely consider it. 
   
  I'm contemplating between the cMoyBB v2.02 or iBasso T3.  Or I might just go directly to an iBasso D4
  to clear any doubts.


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## High_Q

Fiio?  LOD cheap and works.  Amps? Meh... Might as well not even amp if considering fiio.  Get a CMOY.  Also pay attention to people on threads for Fiio products, same people praising Fiio products and carrying the threads like the feisty blue robot friend above me.


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## ClieOS

Say what you want, High_Q, as if anyone cares.
   
  On the other hand, I just grab a cMoyBB v2.02 from another member in the FS forum and hopefully it will be here within two weeks. There will be a comparison of course.


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## Zol0ft

@ClieOS: How do you like the cMoyBB v2.02 so far?


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## zero7525

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Say what you want, High_Q, as if anyone cares.
> 
> On the other hand, I just grab a cMoyBB v2.02 from another member in the FS forum and hopefully it will be here within two weeks. There will be a comparison of course.


 

 Yay, reviews! Can you compare it with your ibasso t3, please?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





zol0ft said:


> @ClieOS: How do you like the cMoyBB v2.02 so far?


 

 A great cMoy amp! Probably the best of any cMoy I have heard and certainly better than all other cMoy I currently have - though I do find the default OPA2227 a pretty big limiting factor so far. Detail comparison will have to wait.
  
  Quote: 





zero7525 said:


> Yay, reviews! Can you compare it with your ibasso t3, please.


 
  Yes I can, but not just yet. I have 4 other reviews / impression I need to write first, so it has to wait to later next week or the week after next.


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## Jupiterknight

Quote: 





clieos said:


> A great cMoy amp! Probably the best of any cMoy I have heard and certainly better than all other cMoy I currently have - though I do find the default OPA2227 a pretty big limiting factor so far. Detail comparison will have to wait.
> 
> Yes I can, but not just yet. I have 4 other reviews / impression I need to write first, so it has to wait to later next week or the week after next.


 


 In what ways do you find the OPA2227 a limiting factor?  Is it lack of detail or depth in soundstage? I'm just curious and may purchase one and change opamps if it lacks in these areas, or maybe I should  not!


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## ClieOS

OPA2227 sounds fine if you compare it to OPA2134, but to me the treble is unrefined and the overall presentation is a bit thin on the cMoyBB. I tried OP275, AD8066 and AD8620 (one of them doesn't work with bass boost but I forgot which, probably OP275) and all of them sound smoother, better body, and more resolving then OPA2227. I'll make a more detail note in the review.


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## Jupiterknight

Thanks Clioes for your reply. Resolving or maybe lack of resolution could be where the OPA 2227 has it weakness compared to some "better" opamps, although I always felt it had some warmth to it's sounds, but could be depended on other components in it's particular setup.
  It's probably a cheaper option for some manufactures or I could very much wrong. Anyway, your info has great value to me in my decision.


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## showa60

I don't know if this is classified as thread necro, but I'd like to know how the cmoyBB measures up to the new E7 with increased gain(?). I'm tossing up between the two (and perhaps the ibasso T3D if I can source it).
   
  I assume that the new E7 is out now, but how do you tell the difference between the old version?
   
  Btw, they're selling them out of Malaysia for AU$90. I emailed them asking for the new version, and they said yes, the shipment is only 2 weeks old, so I assume it's the new one.


----------



## ClieOS

I am not sure if the new E7 is out or not (nor did I hear it), so I can't really comment on that


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## Jack C

I don't know when exactly the update hit, but I know we've been selling the updated version for a while now. I have not taken one out to try out, nor have we received any feedback from users. From what I gather, there is no way to tell about the update from external appearance.
   
  Based on the discussions we've had regarding the gain of the E7 in this forum, whether "a few to several" dB of boost is going to work for you really depends on your specific application and what you are looking for. For most people, the update would not bring about any practical differences during daily use.
   
  Jack


----------



## Oddworld

I think I can help here as I own both E7 and Cmoy 2.02
   
  The E7 is just absolutely superb in terms of clarity. Great mids, delightful treble, tight bass.
  Cmoy 2.02 has more warmth. Definitely more bass.
  I'm not sure which I prefer...


----------



## Xymordos

Does anyone know the exact release date or month of the new E7s?
   
  &&I thought the E7 target market was the DAC users and not the portable amp users? Why is everyone arguing about the amp? I dont think it was ever designed to power big cans.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





xymordos said:


> Does anyone know the exact release date or month of the new E7s?


 
  All the new E7 coming out after August should be the new version. Of course this doesn't count in those old stock from before August which could still be sold by some retailers.


----------



## Oddworld

So, I have this to say:
   
  I just bought some AKG K702's and I'm listening to them right now
  The Cmoy sounds terrible with the AKGs. The E7 sounds fantastic.
   
  The Cmoy 2.02 sounds completely distorted. I think its trying to push too much bass and just lacks power. I have both the battery and external power supply attached, but its not enough. Every time the bass hits, the rest of the spectrum gets drained.
  When I turn off the bass switch, the problem goes away.
   
  The E7, however, plays well with the K702's. But I think this is because it's not trying to throw all this bass in. Could it use more juice? Sure. But I don't think its necessary right now.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Since the oversea market is more and more important for us! we are upgrading our website now!  so in the future ,we will update more news about our products, and some big upgrade of our products!
   
   
  About E7! there are not big different between old version and new version!  but we add a LED so it can show the charging state when E7 is power off! and also the gian is increase about 2.5dB！but it will not
   
  change a big different in SQ and usage!


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## LarsPT

You guys are sure making my life difficult  Still I'm inclined to get an E7, so I can use it on my ipod/clip+ as an amp or at home in my desktop to play bad company 2 as dac+amp


----------



## Oddworld

I have both. They both sound great, but the E7 has a much higher value. For $30 more dollars the E7 is a _steal_


----------



## XxMerlinxX

Got my E7 today as well and I absolutely love it when paired with my Turbines.  Even my old Marshmallows sound better while connected to the E7, it's really very surprising.


----------



## jseaber

Oddworld: You may find this discussion useful. You're exactly right. The cMoy doesn't have enough power to drive low impedance headphones at high volumes with bass boost. An easy modification doubles the current supply and solves the problem.
   
  Edit: The modification is shown here, under "Virtual Ground".
  Quote: 





oddworld said:


> So, I have this to say:
> 
> I just bought some AKG K702's and I'm listening to them right now
> The Cmoy sounds terrible with the AKGs. The E7 sounds fantastic.
> ...


----------



## Oddworld

Damn, I was wondering if there was an easy way to do that.
  I have the wall wart, so powers not an issue


----------



## NYChaos

Quote: 





jack c said:


> Well, these same threads you referred to also indicated that using the line out or LOD from a audio source provides plenty of volume. So it's not just the DAC that works well in the E7 as you've claimed here.  Even in cases where the user is limited to using the headphone output from a source, the source volume can be set sufficiently high to ensure a good signal quality and the E7 can then be used to provide superior power amplification to the headphones.
> 
> The only case where the E7 is not a good match, is when a user is trying to get more volume out of a source and the only thing he has access to is a weak headphone output. I am not making light of this situation, but this is quite a narrowly defined group that doesn't represent the majority of portable headphone amp users willing to spend $100 just on an amplifier.
> 
> Jack


 

 Jack,
   
  What are you saying? lol That you need a louder source in order for AN AMPLIFIER TO SOUND LOUDER??!!! This is the whole point of getting an amp. I have E7 sitting on my desk right now, and I am AMAZED at how little amplification it provides. (from LOD or headphone amps). Up to 50 volume my source is louder. What is the point of this amp??
   
  About to send it back.
   
   
  Tim


----------



## willmax

Similar situation here, bought an iBasso T3 to go with my iPod Video and MS1 only to find out it did nothing but ruin the sound with an unbalanced amplification. Sent back to the manufacture and got my money back. After that bought a BSG CMoy for half of the price of the T3 and I'm in love with it.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





nychaos said:


> Jack,
> 
> What are you saying? lol That you need a louder source in order for AN AMPLIFIER TO SOUND LOUDER??!!! This is the whole point of getting an amp. I have E7 sitting on my desk right now, and I am AMAZED at how little amplification it provides. (from LOD or headphone amps). Up to 50 volume my source is louder. What is the point of this amp??
> 
> ...


 

 Did they not bump the gain on the new E7's?  I thought that bridge had already been crossed.


----------



## MrPickle

The cmoyBB v2.03 is only $52 (shipping included in that price) for all the parts. Where is this $65 price that you're seeing. Are you trying to buy an already assembled one? Why wouldn't you just build it?


----------

