# T-amp ONLY produces 5 good watts...



## sumone

People keep recommending this amp. Why?

 I'll play devil's advocate and hope you people correct me where I'm blatantly wrong:

 5 watts is nothing!

 You can't go deaf with only 5 watts (if you truly wanted to provide ear-piercing music). And how can any subwoofer give any decent output with only 5 watts unless this "sub" was a 3" driver or something??? 5 watts a channel is only good if you live in a cardboard box!

 I'm still trying to either buy or put together a nice system that has the ability to actually sound good at very low volumes & very high volumes (with a budget of $200), yet I see this amp recommended time and time again and no-one explains why they recommend it!. It must be the current internet boner for amps or something.

 Help me understand WHY!!!


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## terrymx

i agree the amp is lacking somewhat in the lows, if it has more current and voltage intakes the bass could be tighter and stronger. dont know why one would think of using this amp to connect to subwoofer though. dont think it was meant for, unless ofcourse one cant afford something better.

 they recommend it because the forum doesnt have a rule to disallow recommending it yet.

 i had one, two more just came into the mail today. i love sonic t-amp.


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## aerius

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_You can't go deaf with only 5 watts (if you truly wanted to provide ear-piercing music)._

 

5 watts with suitably efficient speakers will rupture your eardrums. Just a single watt with high efficiency speakers will cause permanent hearing damage.


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## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_P5 watts a channel is only good if you live in a cardboard box!_

 

Or if you have _carboard speakers_. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 [I do by the way in case that wasnt clear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ]


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aerius* 
_5 watts with suitably efficient speakers will rupture your eardrums. Just a single watt with high efficiency speakers will cause permanent hearing damage._

 

Okay, but at what distance...1 meter? 

 Suitably efficient could be 200dB. But what speakers on the market are that efficient & actually sound decent? I'd guess and say most are between 88-100dB?? I don't know a lot about home-audio speakers however, which is my whole reason for asking these questions.


 And about money...recommending it cause it's cheap. Let's say someone recommended a $1000 amp that only did 5 watts. That's what I'm trying to get at.


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Or if you have carboard speakers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [I do by the way in case that wasnt clear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ]_

 

Is that a shot at car audio? If so, yes, I guess I'm poisoned. I've got 160watts going to my components in my car. That's loud enough for me, then again a car is a small enclosed space. If I were to put those same speakers, with the same amp in my room, I'm guessing it wouldn't be as loud. So how can 5 watts be decent?


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## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_Is that a shot at car audio?_

 

No, I actually have cardboard speakers hooked up to the T-amp on my computer rig. Do a google search for 'nxt soundpax speakers' for more info. They actually don't sound bad.


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## Sovkiller

People here is mainly recommneding this amp to be used with the K-1000, but for speaker setup, 5 watts will be enough only with very efficient speakers....


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_No, I actually have cardboard speakers hooked up to the T-amp on my computer rig. Do a google search for 'nxt soundpax speakers' for more info. They actually don't sound bad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

oh, ok. didn't wanna do this but...what speakers sound good with the ability to deafen with only 5 watts powering them? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you could put a number on the efficiency, what should it be greater than?

 My gut is telling me, I'll find out the answers to my questions once I buy & try, but I don't wanna do that at all.

 Or, I could just say scrap the whole put-together-from-scratch & grab the klipsch promedias. It's hard being a wannabe audiophile & a 20yr old that parties at the same time.


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_oh, ok. didn't wanna do this but...what speakers sound good with the ability to deafen with only 5 watts powering them? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you could put a number on the efficiency, what should it be greater than?

 My gut is telling me, I'll find out the answers to my questions once I buy & try, but I don't wanna do that at all.

 Or, I could just say scrap the whole put-together-from-scratch & grab the klipsch promedias._

 

Why are you so eager to be deaf??? Good sound does not equal to loudness at all.....


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_Why are you so eager to be deaf??? Good sound does not equal to loudness at all....._

 

I'm exaggerating a bit when I mention the word deaf...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess what I'm looking for is this:

 1. low volumes = good sound & clarity
 2. medium volumes = good sound & clarity
 3. high volumes = non-distorted loudness, with "ok" sound.


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## Fidelity

One of the most common ways to damage a set of speakers is through using a under powered amplifier at high volumes.


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fidelity* 
_One of the most common ways to damage a set of speakers is through using a under powered amplifier at high volumes._

 

Exactly. My whole thing is if I grab the t-amp that I'll be heavy on the volume. I've seen the T-amp's chart of THD x Output_Power, which is why it only provides 5 good watts. I don't wanna be susceptible & unsatisfied by buying an amp which can't provide the loudness I'm looking for.


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## aerius

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_Okay, but at what distance...1 meter? 

 Suitably efficient could be 200dB. But what speakers on the market are that efficient & actually sound decent? I'd guess and say most are between 88-100dB?? I don't know a lot about home-audio speakers however, which is my whole reason for asking these questions._

 

Speakers rated at ~97dB will cause permanent hearing damage with a couple watts in a typical room at a distance of around 3 meters. The efficiency of the average speaker is around 88dB, not good if you want to crank it on 5 watts, you'll need something in the mid 90's for that.


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## sumone

So I need some mid-90s (or higher) efficient speakers. Recommendations? Also any recommendations for powered/self-amplified subwoofer packages? Budget is $150-ish altogether.


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## bundee1

Look at Klipsch speakers. They are usually higher efficiency. How far will you be sitting from the speakers? I have a 25 watt amp that sounds beautiful with 89db speakers.


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bundee1* 
_Look at Klipsch speakers. They are usually higher efficiency. How far will you be sitting from the speakers? I have a 25 watt amp that sounds beautiful with 89db speakers._

 

I'll be about anywhere from 2 feet to 12 feet away. Sounding beautifull....does that mean loud also?


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## bundee1

Really how loud do you want it? Do you want to piss people off? Or do you just want impact?


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## sumone

Don't wanna piss people off. May sound stupid (as us 20yr olds think funny) but I just want the ability for someone just walking down the street to be able to hear a lot. With my current speakers, which are 7 watts & 23 watts for the sub, it can get "up" there, but the quality is horrible with the distortion and all.

 That's one thing I hate...people who think they're playing their music loud when it's just laced with distortion!

 Usually when I'm getting ready to go to a party, while ironing my clothes, I'll throw on some good music to get me pumped up...and it's gotta be loud! Can't play Lil'Jon & the Eastside Boyz at a low volume; it's just wrong! I also sometimes have people over just "chillin" and we like our music loud. Of course this is only with rap & some club music. Other times I just like to see how a certain song sounds loud. Aside from that, I could care less about loud music. I'm primarily focused on quality though, but I don't want to not be able to get crazy sometimes!


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## bundee1

How big is the room and how much do you want to spend? Im thinking you should get a used power amp for around $200 (Adcom), Used tower speakers(Wharfedale or older PSBs), and a cheap used preamp(Nad). Youll get loud music that sounds pretty decent. That sonic impact amp is for someone who is really going to sit down and get into the music, so it doesnt need to be loud. You arent going to get bass slam from 5 watts, even into a high efficiency speaker. NO LIL JON FOR YOU!


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## JWFokker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_Don't wanna piss people off. May sound stupid (as us 20yr olds think funny) but I just want the ability for someone just walking down the street to be able to hear a lot. With my current speakers, which are 7 watts & 23 watts for the sub, it can get "up" there, but the quality is horrible with the distortion and all.

 That's one thing I hate...people who think they're playing their music loud when it's just laced with distortion!

 Usually when I'm getting ready to go to a party, while ironing my clothes, I'll throw on some good music to get me pumped up...and it's gotta be loud! Can't play Lil'Jon & the Eastside Boyz at a low volume; it's just wrong! I also sometimes have people over just "chillin" and we like our music loud. Of course this is only with rap & some club music. Other times I just like to see how a certain song sounds loud. Aside from that, I could care less about loud music. I'm primarily focused on quality though, but I don't want to not be able to get crazy sometimes!_

 


 Dude, you give us 20 year olds a bad name. First off, you shouldn't contaminate a T-Amp with Lil' Jon and the Eastside Boyz. Or any audio equipment for that matter. If you absolutely have to listen to rap, put on something decent like old school Busta Rhymes albums. Rap has not improved since The Coming and When Disaster Strikes. And second, no one ever said the T-Amp was intended for use with a subwoofer. Buy a cheap sub and amp, a sonotube, slap it together, and for $150 you have your thumpin' bass. Of course, you're probably better off buying a good quality amp and a 12" Shiva sub to use with the sonotube, but that's about 2x the cost. T-Amps are for driving satellites, not subs.


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## CSMR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_You can't go deaf with only 5 watts_

 

That sounds like an advantage to me, but to each his own.


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## RnB180

the sonic t amp recommendations as an actual amp for home speakers are usually from over-enthusiastic fanboys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 obviously if youre serious about music with some good speakers, the sonic t is a joke.

 they might be neat for mutilmedia use though, not for critical listening. Since people have tried to drive real deal speakers with them doesnt mean that the Sonic t is good at it, I think its a novelty.


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## MrJoshua

I really like the sound the Sonic T produces.

 OK, it's not going to make you go deaf (good), but even with drum & bass music, my JBL's accurately produce the whole range of the music at a decent level with no obvious distortion.

 I suppose that's why I've just spent almost twice the purchase price on a nice Hammond case and decent binding posts, RCA sockets etc etc...

 I'm going to take it to shows etc so we can listen to music at a decent level without having to find a power outlet.


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## philodox

You are a fanboy if you use the t-amp with home speakers!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The t-amp fills the same void as SET tube amps: driving efficient speakers. There is no reason that you could not use a great source and great efficient speakers [moth cicadas or horn speakers for example] and have an awesome system that can go quite loud.


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## tennisets

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_Okay, but at what distance...1 meter? 

 Suitably efficient could be 200dB. But what speakers on the market are that efficient & actually sound decent? I'd guess and say most are between 88-100dB?? I don't know a lot about home-audio speakers however, which is my whole reason for asking these questions.


 And about money...recommending it cause it's cheap. Let's say someone recommended a $1000 amp that only did 5 watts. That's what I'm trying to get at._

 

Have you ever heard of SETs (Single Ended Triodes)? Obviously not. You normally couldn't get any decent soudning amp for under $1000 that "only" produces 5 watts. People pay big bucks for SETs because they sound great. Do you have to have pretty efficient speakers? Sure, but there's nothing quite like a good SET/High Efficiency speaker setup.

 You also, apparently, do not know what sensitivity means. A speaker's sensitivity measure its loudness at one meter driven by one watt (dB/W/m).

 Let's look at an example:
 Say you take a speaker with a sensitivity of 93 dB (reasonably high, but certainly not the highest). Factor in room gain and you get an extra 3 dB. Every time you double the wattage, you get 3 more dBs. So with one watt the speaker will play at 96 dB at one meter. With two watts, it will play at 99 dB. With four watts (2A3 amp), it will play at 102 dB. With 8 watts (300B amp), it will play at 105 dB. Loud enough for you yet?

 Granted, you would want speakers with higher than 93 dB senisitivity with an SET (probably), because you would want more headroom (more headroom = better dynamics, in general). But the T-Amp reportedly sounds much more powerful (and will drive less efficient speakers) than its wattage might indicate.

 Me? I love DHTs (Directly Heated Triodes, typically used in SETs, sometimes in Push Pull amps). In fact, I'm building an amp using 2A3 output tubes starting in just a couple of weeks. It'll cost me about $800 (well, my parents, since it's my graduation present). Anyway, my point is it will produce about 8 watts, not much right? But you don't NEED much, with the right speakers, for fantastic sound! An amp like the one I'm building would cost anywhere from $2000 to $4000 dollars if it was sold commercially. Low powered tube amps can be very expensive!

 Okay, I'm done now.


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## Necros

As the others have said, you don't need hundreds or thousands of watts to drive speakers- although it certainly doesn't hurt. You're correct that when a SS clips it is disastrous to tweeters. But I've heard 8W tube amp drive big JM Labs Electra speakers and they sound great, and more than loud enough.

 And you won't get "200db" efficiency, the most I've seen is ~107dB.
 I've got 2.2KW of power from my amps, but really don't need even half that. Still it's good I have reserves, I don't want to blow £120+ tweeters.

 As for the Sonic T, but I would certainly consider it for PC speaker system amplifier...


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_You are a fanboy if you use the t-amp with home speakers!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The t-amp fills the same void as SET tube amps: driving efficient speakers. There is no reason that you could not use a great source and great efficient speakers [moth cicadas or horn speakers for example] and have an awesome system that can go quite loud._

 


 I will state once again using the sonic t amp as your primary amp source for critical music listening is a joke. If you are using speakers refernece speakers using a t amp as the primary amp then you have some priority issues. If digital amplification is your boat then there are better digital amps out there then a battery power plastic t amp.

 people like the sonic t because its $40 and performs more then expected from a $40 amp makes it so popular, but there there are the fanboys that think it can lauch rockets and drive them them around.... 

 My fanboy comment was directed to a select group, if you were offended about my comment then you should ask yourelf why.

 thanks!


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## philodox

The T-amp performs very well when run with a regulated PSU and there are a few options for modding them. I think that you are focusing a little to much on it being little and plastic and battery powered.

 Have you heard the T-amp with efficient speakers?


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## RnB180

no, but then if i wanted a digital amp Id just get the panny sa xr70.
 S7V rated it at roughly 70 watts all channels driven @ 8 ohms. also inexpensive for what it offers.

 I already have a sold state that is capable of driving my speakers to reference decible levels. along with a couple of subs that hit the 115-120 dB mark just from the LFE alone. I have no need to spend $40 for a 5 watt digital amp to drive 2 speakers. dont get me wrong, I dont use anything special either, I use an entry level high current hk measured at about 55-60 (real) watts per channel all channels driven.

 $40 is not expensive, but id rather invest $40 in a digital amp worth while.


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## bundee1

RnB maybe you should read the reviews and visit the audio asylum and audiocircles. With the types of speakers and music these guys are listening to maybe there is some magic there. These guys are modifying or buying modded versions of the amp for the price of a couple of good powercords. Since the amp is batterypowered you dont need the powercords anyway. Check this out:

www.redwineaudio.com

 I have no affiliation with them but the rave reviews have piqued my interest.


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## Feanor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_no, but then if i wanted a digital amp Id just get the panny sa xr70.

 $40 is not expensive, but id rather invest $40 in a digital amp worth while._

 

RnB, if havent heard the t-amp, what exactly qualifies you to pass judgement on people who use it? [anyway, it can be had for 20$ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ]

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact/t.html


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## Necros

The level of hype was exactly the same as the Outlaw HT pre-amp...hyped up before release as a Lexicon beater...truth far from it


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## comabereni

The T-amp is a unique product with limited application, but it certainly *does* produce high quality sound and *is* more than good enough for "critical listening". I believe it has special appeal to budding high efficiency speaker enthusiasts that haven't dropped the cash yet for a single ended triode amplifier (that typically cost from around $600.00 to $(THOUSANDS).00. Some of those high-end amplifiers only deliver 3 clean watts. 6moons.com and many others on the audio forums have raved about circuit in this amp for months now--the enclosure may be cheap and the price certainly is, but the quality sound the circuit itself is capable of is not hype.

 That said, I don't use mine to drive a subwoofer--that would be rediculous. I only power my ~89dB Paradigm bookshelf speakers with it and they play loudly and cleanly, to the point where my wife regularly tells me to turn it down. That's in a 10 x 14 home office. I couldn't have a block party with my system, but I could go deaf with it in my room, if that was my goal. I DO have a 12" subwoofer, but it has its own 250-watt amp. The amp/speaker combination sounds really great.

 So, as has been said several times now--the T-amp performs very well _within its limits_. If your goal is to lose your hearing half a block away, look elsewhere. If it is to enjoy great sounding music with moderate to high efficiency speakers on a tight budget (recommend 89dB sensitivity and higher), then it's worth a listen. Read the 6moons article. Check out the discussions on the other audio forums. You can always add a separate, powered sub later if needed.

 -coma


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JWFokker* 
_Dude, you give us 20 year olds a bad name. First off, you shouldn't contaminate a T-Amp with Lil' Jon and the Eastside Boyz. Or any audio equipment for that matter. If you absolutely have to listen to rap, put on something decent like old school Busta Rhymes albums. Rap has not improved since The Coming and When Disaster Strikes. And second, no one ever said the T-Amp was intended for use with a subwoofer. Buy a cheap sub and amp, a sonotube, slap it together, and for $150 you have your thumpin' bass. Of course, you're probably better off buying a good quality amp and a 12" Shiva sub to use with the sonotube, but that's about 2x the cost. T-Amps are for driving satellites, not subs._

 

Umm...okay. I guess. Contaminating equipment with Lil Jon...lol. You're a funny guy! I didn't ask about what music I should play on some speakers but what speakers I should my music with. C'mon, do you think I really listen to Lil Jon on a daily basis & like his music? It all depends on what mood I'm in. Like I said, when getting ready for a party, I need to get "crunk"...lol! Otherwise...ha...Lil Jon as music=a joke!

 If I've already got a 12" sub...similar to the Shiva...maybe a step lower. So buying a separate sub is out of the question unless it has an internal amp. Otherwise I'd just grab an amp for the sub I've got.


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tennisets* 
_Have you ever heard of SETs (Single Ended Triodes)? Obviously not. You normally couldn't get any decent soudning amp for under $1000 that "only" produces 5 watts. People pay big bucks for SETs because they sound great. Do you have to have pretty efficient speakers? Sure, but there's nothing quite like a good SET/High Efficiency speaker setup._

 

Believe me, if I even knew what an SET amp is and how it's better than other amps, I probably wouldn't be asking all this stuff! Like I mentioned in another thread. I'm a wannabe audiophile. 192kbs lame mp3 = indistinguishable from CD...because of this I don't qualify as being an audiophile it seems. And since I'm a wannabe, I won't spend tons of money on "high-end" equipment since my ears'll tell me that I would've heard the same thing on something 1/10 the price.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tennisets* 
_You also, apparently, do not know what sensitivity means. A speaker's sensitivity measure its loudness at one meter driven by one watt (dB/W/m)._

 

I thought I was implying that I knew what sensitivity meant when I said "at a distance of 1meter". And 105dB doesn't seem that loud to me.


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Necros* 
_As the others have said, you don't need hundreds or thousands of watts to drive speakers- although it certainly doesn't hurt. You're correct that when a SS clips it is disastrous to tweeters. But I've heard 8W tube amp drive big JM Labs Electra speakers and they sound great, and more than loud enough.

 And you won't get "200db" efficiency, the most I've seen is ~107dB.
 I've got 2.2KW of power from my amps, but really don't need even half that. Still it's good I have reserves, I don't want to blow £120+ tweeters._

 

I was exaggerating when I said 200dB...but like I mentioned...what products are on the market w/that rating? Probably only in some research studies or whatever.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Necros* 
_As for the Sonic T, but I would certainly consider it for PC speaker system amplifier..._

 

I don't get this statement. My PC is the same as my handheld CD player which is the same as my DAP which is the same as my DVD player/TV combo. They all produce sound no matter what the application.


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *comabereni* 
_That said, I don't use mine to drive a subwoofer--that would be rediculous. I only power my ~89dB Paradigm bookshelf speakers with it and they play loudly and cleanly, to the point where my wife regularly tells me to turn it down. That's in a 10 x 14 home office. I couldn't have a block party with my system, but I could go deaf with it in my room, if that was my goal. I DO have a 12" subwoofer, but it has its own 250-watt amp. The amp/speaker combination sounds really great._

 

What sub? How does it sound together? What type of music do you listen to? Me, I can go from 50 Cent to Norah Jones.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *comabereni* 
_So, as has been said several times now--the T-amp performs very well _within its limits_. If your goal is to lose your hearing half a block away, look elsewhere. If it is to enjoy great sounding music with moderate to high efficiency speakers on a tight budget (recommend 89dB sensitivity and higher), then it's worth a listen. Read the 6moons article. Check out the discussions on the other audio forums. You can always add a separate, powered sub later if needed._

 

I only need my loudness sparingly. I guess I'm finally starting to see that 5 watts with efficient speakers has the ability to get loud. But all this is still blind to me cause I've yet to hear ANY decent setup.

 There's no way I'm gonna run ONLY regular speakers. I absolutely need a sub!


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## yorkie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_no, but then if i wanted a digital amp Id just get the panny sa xr70.
 S7V rated it at roughly 70 watts all channels driven @ 8 ohms. also inexpensive for what it offers.

 I already have a sold state that is capable of driving my speakers to reference decible levels. along with a couple of subs that hit the 115-120 dB mark just from the LFE alone. I have no need to spend $40 for a 5 watt digital amp to drive 2 speakers. dont get me wrong, I dont use anything special either, I use an entry level high current hk measured at about 55-60 (real) watts per channel all channels driven.

 $40 is not expensive, but id rather invest $40 in a digital amp worth while._

 

Why do you keep talking about watts? To use a metaphor; I don't care if your car has 300 horsepower, if your wheels are square you're not going to get anywhere. The SI T-Amp can drive a pair of reasonably efficient speakers to ear splitting levels, and I don't think it's fair for you to criticise the sound quality of something you've never heard.


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## comabereni

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_If I've already got a 12" sub...similar to the Shiva...maybe a step lower. So buying a separate sub is out of the question unless it has an internal amp. Otherwise I'd just grab an amp for the sub I've got._

 

Exactly what I did. Bought a 12" Infinity Kappa Perfect sub and powered it with a 12VDC amplifier designed for mobile audio. I run both the T-amp and sub amp off 13.8VDC linear power supplies (Astron) I bought off Ebay. Okay, I probably couldn't actually go deaf listening to the T-amp with my 89db efficient speakers, but it's too loud to have a conversation in the same room, whatever dB-level that is. And it sounds better than any mid-fi receiver/amplifier system I've ever owned or heard. I believe no "reasonable" person who heard my home office system would find it lacking.

 Here's how you can do it:

 T-amp: $30
 Paradigm Atoms: $140
 Sub driver: $80
 Sub amp: Get a nice older one off Ebay for $50
 Crossover: $30 (Harrison Labs has decent passive lowpass Xovers for cheap)
 Linear Power Supply: $70

 Total: $400

 -coma


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Feanor* 
_RnB, if havent heard the t-amp, what exactly qualifies you to pass judgement on people who use it? [anyway, it can be had for 20$ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ]

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact/t.html_

 


 where am I passing judgement on people that use it? BTW ive read the 6 moons review, they hooked it up for fun, however NOT using it as a primary amp for critical listening. unother then for the review.

 should I listen to a 5 watt amp before I can evaluate that my 55 watt amp has more power?


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## Necros

Quote:


 I don't get this statement. My PC is the same as my handheld CD player which is the same as my DAP which is the same as my DVD player/TV combo. They all produce sound no matter what the application. 
 

True all produce sound, but some are better than others. If there wasen't just be cheap amps eh?

  Quote:


 And 105dB doesn't seem that loud to me. 
 

105dB is blooming loud, certainly in the hearing loss range. I listen to 91dB PEAKS, and that is more than loud enough, over that and I get some hearing fatigue.

 105dB sensitivity is how efficient the speaker is. You shouldn't listen to 105 (or even near there)

  Quote:


 what products are on the market w/that rating? Probably only in some research studies or whatever. 
 

Some horns, JBL that sort of thing.


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yorkie* 
_Why do you keep talking about watts? To use a metaphor; I don't care if your car has 300 horsepower, if your wheels are square you're not going to get anywhere. The SI T-Amp can drive a pair of reasonably efficient speakers to ear splitting levels, and I don't think it's fair for you to criticise the sound quality of something you've never heard._

 



 Im speaking of wattage because a 5 watt amp is capable of clipping speakers.
 remember I dont think this amp was ever intended for anything more then mulitmedia use. 

 BTW, you refer to efficient home speakers how effiencient are you referring to? On real world terms you say 5 watts drive ear splitting levels, What decible level do you consider ear splitting? and What SPL do you recommend for a speaker to possess to perform in your words "ear splitting levels"

 talking about real world numbers here, if you go to your local home theater shop tell me what the effineciency of say.. a B&W or martin logan is.

 I would consider above reference level as ear splitting, somewhere above 120 dB imo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Im not telling people they are wrong for using it as an amp, Im jsut against those that are overly enthusiastic and make this out to be the best thing since sliced bread.


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## 450

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_BTW, you refer to efficient home speakers how effiencient are you referring to?_

 

Probably somewhere around 92db+

 eek...you keep editing! 


 Just because its NOT B&W or Martin Logan or Magnapan (okay...you didnt mention that one...but I like 'em!) doesn't mean they sound bad...


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## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *comabereni* 
_Here's how you can do it:

 T-amp: $30
 Paradigm Atoms: $140
 Sub driver: $80
 Sub amp: Get a nice older one off Ebay for $50
 Crossover: $30 (Harrison Labs has decent passive lowpass Xovers for cheap)
 Linear Power Supply: $70

 Total: $400_

 

One thing you missed is that that's $200 over my budget! I just remembered I have some amps laying around too...a 750watt class D & 300 watt a/b. So I could use the 300 watt amp to power my sub which already have. This'll be like deja-vu cause that's what I had in my car at one time! Only thing is I'd have to make an enclosure for the sub. Probably port it in the 40s or so. So that takes off $50 + $80 or $130. 

 There's no better priced 12v power supply? 110V AC -> 12-14VDC? Where can I get this T-amp for $30?? A quick look on eBay gave me results >$50!


----------



## RnB180

never said they sound bad


----------



## comabereni

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_One thing you missed is that that's $200 over my budget! I just remembered I have some amps laying around too...a 750watt class D & 300 watt a/b. So I could use the 300 watt amp to power my sub which already have. This'll be like deja-vu cause that's what I had in my car at one time! Only thing is I'd have to make an enclosure for the sub. Probably port it in the 40s or so. So that takes off $50 + $80 or $130. 

 There's no better priced 12v power supply? 110V AC -> 12-14VDC?_

 

Lucky you--you might be able to do this for not much over your stated budget. I read somewhere that you need approximately 10 amps for every 100 watts, so stick with your 300-watt amplifier. Look on Ebay for the Astron RS-35A or RS-50A (numbers correspond to surge amps--I believe the RS-35A is 25A continuous). You should be able to land one for around the price I stated earlier, even if an ugly one. The T-amp at full output only needs around 2 amps (2.2) peak, so you can probably run both off one power supply. My 35A PSU has meters and my so-called 250-watt bridged RMS MTX amplifier never come close to maxing it out. I didn't port my sub--the goal was to keep this system =musical=, so it's in a 1.25 cu.ft. sealed enclosure.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_Where can I get this T-amp for $30?? A quick look on eBay gave me results >$50!_

 

I just saw a thread here on this forum where it was announced the T-amp is in stock and selling for $20 somewhere. Elsewhere for $30. Maybe someone knows.

 -coma


----------



## sumone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *comabereni* 
_Look on Ebay for the Astron RS-35A or RS-50A (numbers correspond to peak amps). You should be able to land one for around the price I stated earlier, even if an ugly one. The T-amp at full output only needs around 2 amps (2.2) peak, so you can probably run both off one power supply. My 35A PSU has meters and my so-called 250-watt bridged RMS MTX amplifier never come close to maxing it out. I didn't port my sub--the goal was to keep this system =musical=, so it's in a 1.25 cu.ft. sealed enclosure._

 

Cool! A power supply, some bookshelfs, & the T-amp is looking mighty attractive!

 You kept yours sealed? I thought read a lot about the whole car-audio in the home environment was to port your subs in the 40s or so. Sealed would be eaiser to make so cool, I'll just go with that!


----------



## yorkie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Im speaking of wattage because a 5 watt amp is capable of clipping speakers.
 remember I dont think this amp was ever intended for anything more then mulitmedia use. 

 BTW, you refer to efficient home speakers how effiencient are you referring to? On real world terms you say 5 watts drive ear splitting levels, What decible level do you consider ear splitting? and What SPL do you recommend for a speaker to possess to perform in your words "ear splitting levels"

 talking about real world numbers here, if you go to your local home theater shop tell me what the effineciency of say.. a B&W or martin logan is.

 I would consider above reference level as ear splitting, somewhere above 120 dB imo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Im not telling people they are wrong for using it as an amp, Im jsut against those that are overly enthusiastic and make this out to be the best thing since sliced bread._

 

If you think "reference level volume" is above 120db, you need to see a doctor. I'm not kidding around. I don't want you to give yourself hearing damage. This article is pretty informative: http://www.headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm

 Anyway, you can make the 5 watts of the T-Amp as loud as you want by using more efficient speakers. There's a whole world out there of high efficiency speakers for you to explore, and I gaurantee there are plenty out there that could give you serious hearing damage with 5 watts at their belt.


----------



## Oddball

www.ecost.com has the t-amp for $20 plus $8ish shipping.


----------



## philodox

comabereni... Thanks for the impressions of your experiences with the T-amp. You explained what I was trying to say much better than I could have done it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 RnB180... No offence meant man, but you havent even heard the thing so your opinions dont really carry all that much weight in this discussion.


----------



## Necros

Any UK dealers of this amp? Looking into a TV speaker system..not gonna replace my Audiolab 8000Q system though


----------



## comabereni

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_Cool! A power supply, some bookshelfs, & the T-amp is looking mighty attractive!

 You kept yours sealed? I thought read a lot about the whole car-audio in the home environment was to port your subs in the 40s or so. Sealed would be eaiser to make so cool, I'll just go with that!_

 

I know there are some ported sub designs liked by some music enthusiasts, but a ported enclosure is generally recommended for home theater. I wanted tight, musical bass and was willing to sacrifice a little bass extension. I have to turn the volume on my sub amplifier way down as is, so that's not a problem.

 For speakers, I read a pile of reviews and settled on the highly praised Paradigm Atom. I am not aware of any speaker that outperforms it in the same price range. You can buy them used off Ebay for only a little more than $100 for recent iterations (v2 and v3). First generation Atoms have a flat back (rather than sculpted plastic) and use spring connectors rather than binding posts, but I hear they sound good and often sell for less than $100. You might also look at the Titan model. Perhaps others have speaker recommendations in the $100 range I'm not aware of.

 -coma


----------



## philodox

What is the efficiency of the Atoms? I was thinking about getting the Moth Audio Cicada's myself, but they are a bit more expensive.


----------



## Ferbose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_I will state once again using the sonic t amp as your primary amp source for critical music listening is a joke. If you are using speakers refernece speakers using a t amp as the primary amp then you have some priority issues. If digital amplification is your boat then there are better digital amps out there then a battery power plastic t amp.

 people like the sonic t because its $40 and performs more then expected from a $40 amp makes it so popular, but there there are the fanboys that think it can lauch rockets and drive them them around.... 

 My fanboy comment was directed to a select group, if you were offended about my comment then you should ask yourelf why.

 thanks!_

 

There is a lot of misunderstanding here. 

 First, how loud do you need to play your music?

 In live music, the loudest passage is generally between 110-115 dB. 
 However, in the confined space of a house, it is generally not preferred to listen at such high SPL--too much room reflection and too loud for neighbors. 
 In a real home, the peak SPL of 100-105 dB is generally sufficient. 
 You see, I have 88.5 dB/W/1m bookshelf speakers (anechoic measurement from Canada's NRC). With a pair I get +3 dB, and then plus room reflection +2.5dB. Sonic Impact outputs 5.5-6 clean watts, which adds +7.5 dB. That is 101.5 dB at 1m. In my small room I sit about 1.5 meters away, so thats is -3.5dB. In my chair I get 98 dB SPL, which is only slightly lower that the 100 dB required for a "good" reproduction. I do have two active subs in my system. Generally the loudest passages of music or movies has low-frequency content. Using two loud active subs with minimonitors hitting 98 dB, I don't feel any lack of dynamic range. 
 The preferred average listening level for most people is 65 dB on stereo. In very good classical music recordings, the peak is generally 25-30 dB above the average. That is why 100 dB is loud enough for most people. 
 Be aware that prolonged exposure to sound over 80 dB causes hearing damage. 
 From the above analysis, you can see that a 5W amp is not a joke. The power of the amplifier is all relative to speaker efficiency and room size. There is no trick here. 
 Only people who misunderstand the real power requirements of audio amplifiers would dismiss 5W amps, which include a lot of SET stuff, as useless. In fact, famous audio engineer Mr. Klipsch onece said 50 years ago he doesn't see why people would ever need amps with more than 5 watts. 


 My main spekaers are only $1175, and they used to be driven by $350 Jolida JD301 hybrid amp with $120 Axiom speaker cables. The Athena speakers received Sounstage End-of-Year Award for "Exceptional Value" and I have always considered the Jolida one of the best integrated amps in the <$500 range. Arguably, I don't have a fancy speaker setup, but I think it is decent enough for an audiophile with a limited budget. When T-amp came into my system, it quickly replaced the Jolida for better resolution and clarity. The improvements of using T-amp (stock with sealed lead battery as PSU) is quite obvious and significant. I would say in those five watts, T-amp sounds like an amp three times the price of my Jolida. Of course I could be called a "fanboy" for saying T-amp competes with $1000 amp. However, I am actually more conservative than the reviewers at "6 moons" and "TNT Audio." Are those seasoned audio reviewers just "fanboy" as well? If a $30 dollar amp could turn experieicned reviewers into fanboys, does not this say something about its _exceptional_ sound quality. Reviewers at 6-Moons and TNT-Audio blatantly point out that T-amp can compete with >$1k amps. And IMHO that is not a joke.


----------



## comabereni

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_comabereni... Thanks for the impressions of your experiences with the T-amp. You explained what I was trying to say much better than I could have done it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 RnB180... No offence meant man, but you havent even heard the thing so your opinions dont really carry all that much weight in this discussion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's just that I've been listening to this combo since December and am blown away by what I put together for so cheap. It took a little creative thinking (running all 12VDC equipment).

 BTW, RnB is a particularly cool head-fi'er, but as his own signature indicates, sometimes the "foolish things of the world shame the wise" and the "weak things of the world shame the strong". I think the T-amp qualifies, with a little careful component matching.

 -coma


----------



## Necros

oh not ported versus sealed debate? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyhoo ported is mostly more efficient, so could help with low powered amps.

 NHT's are incredibly inefficient, need a good 100W or so.

 Atom sensitivity- 89dB / 86dB (Sensitivity -- Room / Anechoic)


----------



## sumone

Where in the world are these Paradigm Atoms? I cannot find them! Who makes them? Is this "Atom" the model number or what?

 You guys have convinced me. As soon as I saw the ecost.com link...I bought it


----------



## comabereni

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_Where in the world are these Paradigm Atoms? I cannot find them! Who makes them? Is this "Atom" the model number or what?

 You guys have convinced me. As soon as I saw the ecost.com link...I bought it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Paradigm = Canadian speaker company
 Atom = Speaker model

 Here are some listed on Ebay: *click*

 P.S. Paradigm speakers are not available new on the Internet, only from local dealers. The Atoms are priced at around ~$180/pair new anyway, so look to Ebay for used Atoms or work a local deal. I bought mine locally from an authorized dealer for $140 (floor model).

 -coma


----------



## philodox

Hey, I never said RnB wasnt a cool guy, I just thought he went a little far in putting down a product that he has no experience with.


----------



## JWFokker

I say he should buy a pair of Fostex FE126E 4.5" full range drivers and put them in ported box. Cheaper than a pair of Atoms by far and they're quite excellent drivers. I'd recommend Tang Band W3-871's but they're not too efficient. Only 87 or 88db 1w/1m. The Fostex FE126E is 93db 1w/1m. Plenty efficient for a T-Amp. For $37 for the drivers and a few bucks more for some connectors, Acousta-Stuf and the MDF for a pair of boxes, you could have some pretty damn nice speakers. I suggest using the PC as the input to the T-Amp so you can use the EQ in Winamp to minimize the 6db peak at 6.5khz. Atoms are nice, but not cheap. For $70 tops you could have a pair of speakers that aren't quite as good, but a hell of a lot better than what you've got (and better for the money than the Atoms) and easily driven by a T-Amp.

 Check this out:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-50975.html

 While it may sound great for around $60-70, that still doesn't resolve your bass problem though. I think you should take the money saved, buy a good power supply for your car amp that you're going to use, buy a decent 12" Dayton sub for $100 and put it all together with a sonotube. That's the way to go.

 EDIT: Just remembered you have car subs and amps.


----------



## RnB180

I like the sound of athenas, Canadian speakers in general sound good, and offer good price versus performance. 

 I actually use a 5.2 surround set up with Mirage Omni polar speakers. the efficiency of my speakers are 91 dB. 

 I use my the speakers for home theater and reference dolby level is at the 115-120 mark last time I checked.

 If youre happy with the t amp, thats great, but if you are seriously powering tower speakers then why not just get something like the Panny or JVC offerings? which actually offer more features and headroom.

 powering $1k speakers with a $20 amp? if it floats your boat.

 BTW, i doubt those 6 moon guys are using the sonic t as their primary amp, have they used it as an amp? yes! are they using it over what they really use? NO, 

 tell me one audiophile including 6 moons and every other audio site drop their multi kilo buck amp set up for a $20 sonic t. That is my response to anyone that repeatedly points to the SAME 6moons review mentioned several times already.


 am I a cool guy yep 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, Can I be stubborn, YES! Im sure I can drive my speakers with the T amp, my little 5 watt tubey powers my mirage better then my friends 100 watt onkyo HTIB receiver. I dont find it difficult to believe that a sonic t CAN power my speakers, doesnt mean Id want to use it as a source of primary amplification.


----------



## ooheadsoo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_Im speaking of wattage because a 5 watt amp is capable of clipping speakers._

 

Actually, I doubt if power equivalent to a small handful of AA batteries can clip very many speakers.

 The chip inside the t-amp is also used in the $100 griffin powerwave, if that means anything. Anyway, if you're on a strict budget, I don't see much of an option - you've got the t-amp or you can go multimedia. If you want to blast your music and you don't have super efficient speakers, forget it. If you have super efficient speakers, then I doubt you're the kind of guy that wants to blast your music for a house party. *shrug*


----------



## RnB180

clipping as in underpower not over power 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 btw, I have a sneaking suspiscion that a lot of the positive remarks and hype are due to the astronomical price versus performance ratio, 

 build and sound quality can be easily overlooked by the price.

 as quoted from the TNT review that no one seems to mention

  Quote:


 Manufacturing and finish. What do you expect I should say? It is damn cheap, anyway it is nicely built and finished. For sure it possesses one of the highest WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) ever seen on Planet Earth 
 The loudspeakers spring clips are flimsy and easy to break. Plus they don't accept anything else than 1.5-2.0 mmq bare wire.
 As the T-Amp so small, there's not enough room between the input minijack and the DC power inlet. The volume knob isn't exactly user-friendly though extremely precise  



 Sound. Uhm, here are my notes: output power is too low, sometimes it sounds harsh in the highs and slow in the first octave. The bass range, from time to time, lacks control, especially when pushed too hard. Overall dynamics not excellent. Now, re-read thinking at the 23$-price target. I know, I'd better keep my mouth shut :-|


----------



## bln

There are other options than the T-amp below 50 dollars -- just check out eBay, as well as thrift stores, for a vintage amp or receiver. It's not hard at all to get a 30-watt receiver with phono, headphone jack, tone controls, etc. for under $50.


----------



## ooheadsoo

When those 8 AA batteries are outputting full power DC, I don't think it's enough to stress out any decent drivers.


----------



## yorkie

Quote:


 If youre happy with the t amp, thats great, but if you are seriously powering tower speakers then why not just get something like the Panny or JVC offerings? which actually offer more features and headroom. 
 

This is really simple, so bear with me: The T-Amp isn't an integrated receiver. If you need the features of an integrated receiver, you're not looking for a T-Amp. If you're strictly looking at sound quality, the T-Amp can "seriously" power speakers, provided that they are of a reasonably high efficiency.

 If you're looking for the features of an integrated receiver, or more power, then you're either looking for a different amp or some product to compliment the T-Amp. That doesn't change the fact that for its uses the T-Amp is a great product.

  Quote:


 BTW, i doubt those 6 moon guys are using the sonic t as their primary amp, have they used it as an amp? yes! are they using it over what they really use? NO,

 tell me one audiophile including 6 moons and every other audio site drop their multi kilo buck amp set up for a $20 sonic t. That is my response to anyone that repeatedly points to the SAME 6moons review mentioned several times already. 
 

I don't understand where any of these comments are coming from. Noone is saying that the T-Amp is perfect, or that it can beat out an amplifier which costs thousands of dollars. The fact that reviews are all using 2k$+ amplifiers to compare it to speaks for itself.

 Why do you keep trying to knock a piece of audio equipment you've never heard before? I don't get it... you're not going to change anyone's opinions, either buy it or give up insulting it.


----------



## geforcewong

It's a low priced efficient amp that's mainly built for consumers looking for decent sound at a low price. It has the capabilities of a Class AB amp at low volumes and doesnt generate a lot of heat as more powerful Class A amps... You really can't complain about it considering the price you pay for them.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yorkie* 
_
 I don't understand where any of these comments are coming from. Noone is saying that the T-Amp is perfect, or that it can beat out an amplifier which costs thousands of dollars. The fact that reviews are all using 2k$+ amplifiers to compare it to speaks for itself._

 


 actually, someone made silly remark and posting the 6 moons link asking if I would call them fanboys because they used it. Making the typical gibberish enthusiasm comments and using the same 6 moon link you see everywhere. It has however been conveniently edited out by the poster after my rebuttal. My post would make sense if the original post I was responded to wasnt mysteriously removed.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *geforcewong* 
_It's a low priced efficient amp that's mainly built for consumers looking for decent sound at a low price. It has the capabilities of a Class AB amp at low volumes and doesnt generate a lot of heat as more powerful Class A amps... You really can't complain about it considering the price you pay for them._

 


 I think he nailed it on the head.


----------



## RnB180

I keep my mouth shut for now, wouldnt want to add fuel to the fire.
 Ill probably pick one up to see what the hype is about whenever I have cash to burn, but Id rather put into a new amp.


----------



## JWFokker

The lack of power below 40Hz is seriously improved by swapping out the stock capacitors for higher quality, larger Panasonic caps. You guys should check out DIYAudio's Class D amp forum. They're all over this thing. For $20-30 for the T-Amp and $10-15 in caps and resistors you can have an amp that is significantly improved over the stock T-Amp. Of course, it's also a good idea to run it off higher capacity batteries or a regulated linear power supply. You can pick up an Astron RS-3A for pretty cheap.


----------



## geardoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_Okay, but at what distance...1 meter? 

 Suitably efficient could be 200dB. But what speakers on the market are that efficient & actually sound decent? ..._

 

I could use some help finding some speakers for my t-amp under $100 or or so. Anything that would do jazz some justice? 

 I saw that Outpost had some Polk Audio R50 series for about $70. Would these do with the t-amp?


----------



## comabereni

I know it's impossible to evaluate anything independent of how much it costs, but I'd like to make one last point in this thread before I stop monitoring it. 

 The sound from my T-amp is far more similar to high-end components I've experienced in expensive 'audiophile' showrooms than any multi-hundred dollar receiver or amplifier I've bought or listened to. Is it perfect? No. I sometimes notice it is a little too "dry", grainy, lacking in that awesome "blackness" you experience and dream about after hearing the mega-kilobuck stuff. Sometimes at high volume, I find I've pushed it into clipping--makes me want something with a little more power, or more efficient speakers. Would I use the T-amp somewhere other than my office? Like in a dedicated listening room? I don't know--I've been debating that as I have been planning my "high-end" system. I'm not sure exactly how much I'm going to have to spend to improve on the sound I'm enjoying from my T-amp. Maybe a DIY single-ended triode/pentode tube amp project costing several hundred dollars, or a similarly designed digital amp with a bit more power, or maybe just an optimized T-amp with a tubed pre-amp and better speakers than I have in the office. 

 FWIW, Rnb is correct that there are other digital amps out there to consider that have more power and only cost a bit more. These include the 30w 3-channel amp from TEAC, three Tripath amp kits from 41Hz audio, the Panasonic digital receivers, a Sharp receiver ooheadsoo is using, etc. So if it's the 5-watt thing holding anyone back, come up with a few more $10 bills and buy more power. It certainly makes speaker selection a lot less difficult. But, if your room is small, your budget tight, your goal to have great 2-channel sound, and you understand what you're getting into and can live with the limits of your decision, the T-amp delivers--more than you are likely to expect.

 -coma


----------



## vba

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *comabereni* 
_That said, I don't use mine to drive a subwoofer--that would be rediculous. I only power my ~89dB Paradigm bookshelf speakers with it and they play loudly and cleanly, to the point where my wife regularly tells me to turn it down. That's in a 10 x 14 home office. I couldn't have a block party with my system, but I could go deaf with it in my room, if that was my goal. I DO have a 12" subwoofer, but it has its own 250-watt amp. The amp/speaker combination sounds really great.

 So, as has been said several times now--the T-amp performs very well _within its limits_. If your goal is to lose your hearing half a block away, look elsewhere. If it is to enjoy great sounding music with moderate to high efficiency speakers on a tight budget (recommend 89dB sensitivity and higher), then it's worth a listen. Read the 6moons article. Check out the discussions on the other audio forums. You can always add a separate, powered sub later if needed.

 -coma_

 

I agree with the above and Tennisets. I'm a 51 year old that has been in the audio game for a good number of years. I get the impression that many on this board are much younger than me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I bought the T-amp a couple of months back to see what the fuss was about. Damn this thing sounds nice. I'm using 88 db/1m (8 ohm/3ohm miniumum) B&W 601s3 speakers and those 5 watts sound plently loud enough for me. I don't have any desire for more bass when listening to Classic Rock or Classical. This amp caused me replace my old 1987 vintage Creek CAS4040 (30 w/ch) int. amp. with a lowly 5 watts. There's no comparison, dead quite compared to the Creek and much better sounding.

 There was no concern regarding volume levels, as I knew 5-6 watts would go along way. As indicated above 88 + 3 (for two speakers) + 3 (for room gain) - 8 dB (speaker distance) = 86dB for the first watt. This is loud, listening to music at these levels for a few hours can cause hearing damage. The extra 4 watts or so leaves plenty for headroom.


----------



## breez

When calculating SPL levels people should remember the decible figure only applies to the musical peaks/transients. In general average level is 10-20dB lower depending on music.


----------



## sumone

I already bought the T-amp from e-Cost...it's on the way. So all I need is some efficient bookshelf speakers? It seems the word is either Polk R15 or Paradigm Atoms. I just need a final word on what I should buy!


----------



## jrockway

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_
 My fanboy comment was directed to a select group, if you were offended about my comment then you should ask yourelf why.

 thanks!_

 

When I read comments like this about the T-amp, I read them as being rather defensive. I think that when people pay $5000 for an amp they don't want people with $40 ones to have similarly good sound... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And really, there's no reason $40 worth of electronics can't amplify music well. This isn't rocket science... it's a few transistors in a careful arrangement... an amp's electronics _shouldn't_ cost more than $40! Paying the EEs to design it is the expensive part.

 The plastic covering isn't very nice, but that's why you pay $200 for another box (like Art Taylor's beautiful Ampbox). All in all, I think it's a fine amp for a bookshelf system... not the be all and end all, but not a bad amp at any price!

 (I actually rewired my DT880s to use it as a headphone, and it sounds pretty good, but I like my Headroom Little a bit more. Less noise and more bass. But like I said, the $40 T-amp is a good second headphone amp for my other computer or office...)


----------



## JWFokker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_I already bought the T-amp from e-Cost...it's on the way. So all I need is some efficient bookshelf speakers? It seems the word is either Polk R15 or Paradigm Atoms. I just need a final word on what I should buy!_

 

Screw both of those. Get a pair of Fostex FE127E's and mount each in a 4' x 6' 1/2" sheet of MDF. You'd be extremely surprised how good open baffle speakers sound. Just keep them about 2-4 feet away from a wall and it will sound awesome. You'll get plenty of detailed sound at the volume you're looking for. They're almost flat down to 65Hz.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind...6.1090&pid=323

 I'd recommend the FE126E because they're even more detailed and have even better balanced sound, but they aren't shielded so you'd want to keep them away from your computer if you went that route.


----------



## philodox

Those Fostex drivers sound interesting... have you tried the Polk R15 or the Paradigm Atoms JWFokker?


----------



## ReasonablyLucid

I have a pair of paradigm v3 atoms powered by a Tamp and if I put the volume above the first 1/3rd theres *tons* of distortion, is that normal? Or a faulty tamp?


----------



## JWFokker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Those Fostex drivers sound interesting... have you tried the Polk R15 or the Paradigm Atoms JWFokker?_

 

Nope, but parts costs of speaker systems are a fraction of what you pay due to labor, markup at retail, etc. I say invest your money in the drivers themselves rather than all the guys taking a cut of your money. You're getting more speaker for your dollar that way. For simplicity sake you can use an open baffle design (mount each one to a board - the bigger the better) and it'll sound pretty damn good, though bass extension won't be as good as with a properly tuned enclosure. Is it worth $20 in MDF and a few hours time to you to build the boxes? Of course, you'll want a couple bucks worth of Acousta-Stuf too. But hell, you don't even necessarily need to port them though. A sealed enclosure will sound better than open baffle and you won't run the risk of having boomy bass or any weird resonance as with a ported or transmission line enclosure. They won't go as deep but its simple and the bass will be tight.

 I may be presenting too many options for you to sort through though. I suggest you buy a couple 4x8 sheets of MDF, mount a driver in each, give it a try and if you don't like it, cut up the MDF and make boxes. When positioned correctly, open baffle sounds just fine.


----------



## philodox

Yeah, but paradigm and polk are both decent companies that have done research and paired drivers in appropriate enclosures. They are also quite cheap with the polk only costing ~$80USD and the paradigm about twice that.

 Still, your idea is interesting. Are you saying that you mount the drivers in a sheet of MDF and dont bother with enclosures at all? Do you just attach the speaker wire to the drivers themselves or is something else needed?


----------



## JWFokker

Yep. With open baffle there's no additional hardware needed. It'll sound pretty damn good, but it is worth noting that a properly tuned ported enclosure will sound better. I'm just saying if you want to take the easy way out and do open baffle, it'll sound pretty damn good anyway with those drivers, as they're quite excellent and extremely detailed. Some guys modify their rooms so they can use open baffle because the like the sound so much. You might not want to use open baffle if you have hardwood floors and bare walls, but that wouldn't be a good room to listen to music in anyway.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ReasonablyLucid* 
_I have a pair of paradigm v3 atoms powered by a Tamp and if I put the volume above the first 1/3rd theres *tons* of distortion, is that normal? Or a faulty tamp?_

 


 sounds like you speakers are clipping, which is what happens when they are underpowered.

 keep doing that and youll heat up the voice coils in the driver and kill your speakers.

 the fact that if you start pushing the speakers and its distorting is an obvious give away,

 underpowered clipping is one of the most common ways a speaker dies.
 If I were you Id ditch the tamp and get something suitable for your paradigms.


----------



## ReasonablyLucid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_sounds like you speakers are clipping, which is what happens when they are underpowered.

 keep doing that and youll heat up the voice coils in the driver and kill your speakers.

 the fact that if you start pushing the speakers and its distorting is an obvious give away,

 underpowered clipping is one of the most common ways a speaker dies.
 If I were you Id ditch the tamp and get something suitable for your paradigms._

 

The astron power supply for the tamp came yesterday and I hooked it up today. Everything seems to be fine now. The batteries I was running the tamp off of were just not giving it enough juice.

 Now I could put the volume up to the level where I would go deaf in 30sec before I hear distortion again


----------



## JWFokker

Did you get the RS-3A or the RS-4A and how much did it cost? I'm about to buy one myself. The best I've found so far is $30 for the RS-3A.


----------



## JWFokker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_sounds like you speakers are clipping, which is what happens when they are underpowered.

 keep doing that and youll heat up the voice coils in the driver and kill your speakers.

 the fact that if you start pushing the speakers and its distorting is an obvious give away,

 underpowered clipping is one of the most common ways a speaker dies.
 If I were you Id ditch the tamp and get something suitable for your paradigms._

 

You hate the T-Amp without ever using it. Stop trying to bash the thread. You don't own one. He probably just needed new batteries. When the batteries run out it will distort at higher volumes.

 EDIT: spelling


----------



## RnB180

obviously the batteries did not power the amp enough, causing clipping. where was I incorrect in my assessment?

 I tell him what is going and and jwfokker bashes me.
 I seemed to be the ONLY one that actually gave him a troubleshoot while everyone ignored his post.

 seems like when theres a negative thing to say about the t amp, its ignored or bashed. Then someone say its a great amp and 50 people respond and converse happily.

 earth to jwfokker, critism is part of the world..

 Good job.


 He fixed his problem, case closed.

 btw, i dont hate the t amp, I do however think its a bit overrated by some.


----------



## yorkie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_obviously the batteries did not power the amp enough, causing clipping. where was I incorrect in my assessment?

 I tell him what is going and and jwfokker bashes me.
 I seemed to be the ONLY one that actually gave him a troubleshoot while everyone ignored his post.

 seems like when theres a negative thing to say about the t amp, its ignored or bashed. Then someone say its a great amp and 50 people respond and converse happily.

 earth to jwfokker, critism is part of the world..

 Good job.


 He fixed his problem, case closed.

 btw, i dont hate the t amp, I do however think its a bit overrated by some._

 

Please do not offer advice if you've never even experienced the audio component. Maybe you were trying to be helpful but you were totally incorrect in your assessment. You told him to ditch the T-Amp, and said that the T-Amp was not suitable enough for the Atoms. It would have been a shame if he had taken your advice seriously and bought an entire new amp when his solution was only a 20$ power supply away.

 Don't be surprised if people don't meet your comments with friendly faces in this thread. If you actually had ever heard a T-Amp and decided to criticise it, people would accept your comments happily. The unfortunate fact is that without firsthand experience you have nothing to contribute to this discussion beyond pointing out the obvious limitations of a low power amp.

 It bothers me that what could otherwise be a positive discussion of a budget audio component that gives the world a taste of hi-fi sound has to be rained upon by people who have no experience to speak of. I'm sorry if this post sounds too negative, I don't mean to pass judgment on you.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yorkie* 
_It bothers me that what could otherwise be a positive discussion of a budget audio component that gives the world a taste of hi-fi sound has to be rained upon by people who have no experience to speak of. I'm sorry if this post sounds too negative, I don't mean to pass judgment on you._

 

you dont mean to but you are passing judgement on me on a personal level. not just equipment.

 If I were to buy a t amp that would be a downgrade for me. Clipping is a problem with low powered amps. Doesnt take more money to spring for an amp to supplies more wattage either. with the cost of the amp itself and the power supply, one could go either way.

 Im glad he found a solution. To discern whether or not an amp is clipping your speakrs doesnt take rocket science. Maybe someone else shouldve gave him some trouble shooting advice, other then me? but when you look at it, he asked what was wrong with his amp and NO ONE answered him. people kept praising the amp.

 Rather then me "raining" on the thread, why didnt anyone with a tamp help him? rather then waiting for him to fix it himself, stating he was fine, and THEN let others bash me.

 its great that he gets to use the amp now with no problems, Yorkie, if he were to get something with more headroom, it does NOT necessarily mean its poor advice. but also prove to be an investment for future use.

 In no way am I ever purposely trying to give poor advice to anyone.
 ill be on my way to the sunshine in this thread will return. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the rain gods are now leaving.

 PS: If i drop $30-50 to buy a t amp, clip my speakers and come back, will my opinion count then


----------



## ReasonablyLucid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JWFokker* 
_Did you get the RS-3A or the RS-4A and how much did it cost? I'm about to buy one myself. The best I've found so far is $30 for the RS-3A._

 

Keep searching ebay. I got an RS-7A for $25 shipped


----------



## yorkie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_you dont mean to but you are passing judgement on me on a personal level. not just equipment.

 If I were to buy a t amp that would be a downgrade for me. Clipping is a problem with low powered amps. Doesnt take more money to spring for an amp to supplies more wattage either. with the cost of the amp itself and the power supply, one could go either way.

 Im glad he found a solution. To discern whether or not an amp is clipping your speakrs doesnt take rocket science. Maybe someone else shouldve gave him some trouble shooting advice, other then me? but when you look at it, he asked what was wrong with his amp and NO ONE answered him. people kept praising the amp.

 Rather then me "raining" on the thread, why didnt anyone with a tamp help him? rather then waiting for him to fix it himself, stating he was fine, and THEN let others bash me.

 its great that he gets to use the amp now with no problems, Yorkie, if he were to get something with more headroom, it does NOT necessarily mean its poor advice. but also prove to be an investment for future use.

 In no way am I ever purposely trying to give poor advice to anyone.
 ill be on my way to the sunshine in this thread will return. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the rain gods are now leaving.

 PS: If i drop $30-50 to buy a t amp, clip my speakers and come back, will my opinion count then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You seem to be avoiding the point that you have no experience with the T-Amp. The advice you gave him was just plain wrong. Your intentions are admirable, but the reason noone had answered his question was probably that they didn't know the answer. Perhaps you should have followed their example, and waited for someone who knew the answer to respond.

 And for the record, the statement "Clipping is a problem with low powered amps." is misleading. Clipping is a result of mismatching your equipment. It's caused as much by using speakers with low efficiencies as it is with using low powered amps. The T-Amp is perfectly capable of giving you permanent hearing damage; you just need to make sure you're using the right speakers to compliment it. 

 It's really too bad that the T-Amp isn't the product for you, but maybe someday you'll get a chance to listen to it and realise how quick you've been to pass judgment.


----------



## pne

RnB180, please give the amp a shot, it's really a nice little gem, I don't understand why you nail it because it's a low power amp. It's design was never to push inefficient speakers to thunderous levels, it was designed to work with high efficiency speakers. Those usable 5 watts are very defined and definately hi-fidelity. It's like you're telling someone with a luxury sedan to buy a sports car . Both are for driving, but clearly different purposes.

 I'm running 92db efficient speakers in a small room, the t-amp is perfect for a lot of music I listen to. Do I use it all the time? No. With bass heavy or dance music, metal, hard rock, I use my integrated 80w. Same when people are over for a party. When I'm listening to classic rock, jazz, orchestral, blues, I use the t-amp for it's clarity. You want to knock the t-amp? I'm an owner and I'll admit it's not perfect. The bass rolloff is quite noticeable, and a problem I am trying to fix along with a lot of other DIYers. The highs are so clear at times they can be too much/shrill and listening fatigue sets in. But there is no way I can get the same quality of mids and high's from my 80wpc amp. If a t-amp will clip with your speakers then it's not for you, but thats no reason to turn away other people. I don't think you should underestimate it without at least hearing it is all.

 btw, correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe it's the amplifier clipping not the speakers.


----------



## JeffL

5 Watts is not going to be enough, even with sensitive speakers, in an average room for bassheavy music.

 If you want volume and clarity, you need power behind it, plain and simple.

 Large drivers especially like gobs of power, and if want good, tight, low bass, you need an amp that can control those drivers to a reasonable degree of accuracy.

 $200 would get you a lowend Crown amplifier. I bought my XLS 202 on eBay for ~$175. Good sensitive speakers though aren't going to be cheap. You'll probably want to increase your budget, especially if you want a decent high power amplifier.


----------



## Ferbose

An 100W integrated amplifier cannot power the speakers at an outdoor rock concert--does this make every 100 W integrated amplifier a piece of crap compared to 2000W pro-audio amps? 
 If a 2000W amp outputs lousy first 5 Watts, it can't be a piece of audiophile equipment. 
 If an 100W integrated amplifier sounds good in those 100 Watts, it is worthy of being used in a serious stereo system.
 If a 5W T-amp sounds good in those 5 Watts, it is worthy of being used in a serious stereo system.
 If someone has heard T-amp and thinks it sounds like crap, the person is entitled to his opinion. 
 If someone has not heard of T-amp, then he has nothing to offer in terms of discussing its sound quality. 
 And we already know how much power T-amp can output from the TA2024 datasheet, and no amount of bashing is going to change the fact that 5W is enough power in quite a few application scenarios. The simple fact is that you need at least 95-100 dB peak SPL at your listening seat. Simple math will tell you what the peak SPL is depending on speaker efficiency and listening distance. 
 The point is, we all know how much power T-amp has, and we just need to know if those 5 watts sound good or not. Only people who have listened toT-amp can offer insight into its sound quality. 5 Watts is still 5 Watts, no matter how hard someone tries to make it look insignificant. By definition, 5 Watts is 5 Joules of work per second, and it won't get any smaller than that just becuase someone says it is so "tiny."


----------



## RnB180

I tell it like how it is, his amp was clipping his speakers. I dont know what you mean by his amp clipping. Ive always thought clipping was done to the speakers when a frequency is required but not enough juice is put out, thus the driver trying to recreate that response is unable to resulting in a plateau and the coil starts moving really fast and eventually melts.

 So in his situation if it were battery powered, the batteries could not provide enough power tus causing clipping? According to Yorker I am wrong?
 component matching and actual clipping is two different matters. 


 audibly what you hear when a speaker clips in distortion and dirty sound as you try to push it.

 I was going to buy a sonic t am for fun, but then that would be $20 wasted. I would have nothing to use it with. 

 though I am not throwing digital amplification out the window at all, I will probably pick up the new panny 55.

 Home theater was my first audio hobby, then head fi. prior to head fi I was a home theater nut for a couple of years. I was more into demo refernce level and dvds then headphones. I come from a different perspective, according to t amp owners efficiency is a must. I like to drive my soundtrrack up 100+ decibles, during reference movie viewing my subs along hit the 115-120 dB mark. So I like my headroom.

 but obviously people that own a t amp wont be pushing their speakers like that. Thats why I consider a t amp pointless for "me". people keep telling me Im wrong for thinking that. How many times do I have to say the t amp wont give me enough power for my own use?


----------



## JeffL

Quote:


 An 100W integrated amplifier cannot power the speakers at an outdoor rock concert--does this make every 100 W integrated amplifier a piece of crap compared to 2000W pro-audio amps? 
 

You'd be surprised at what people use for equipment sometimes, especially when money is tight. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


 If a 2000W amp outputs lousy first 5 Watts, it can't be a piece of audiophile equipment. 
 

Not true at all. If your listening room is huge, and you are using that 2kw amp to power multiple subwoofers, you might constantly run that amp near clipping. It depends on the listening setup, and the usage.

  Quote:


 If a 5W T-amp sounds good in those 5 Watts, it is worthy of being used in a serious stereo system. 
 

Maybe in volume limited scenarios. But 5 watts of peak power is pushing it, especially with highly dynamic music.

  Quote:


 If someone has heard T-amp and thinks it sounds like crap, the person is entitled to his opinion. 
 If someone has not heard of T-amp, then he has nothing to offer in terms of discussing its sound quality. 
 

Not necessarily. That person might have insight as to technical characteristics and design of the amp, but may not necessarily have heard one. You can measure THD without listening to the amp, for instance.

  Quote:


 And we already know how much power T-amp can output from the TA2024 datasheet, and no amount of bashing is going to change the fact that 5W is enough power in quite a few application scenarios. 
 

Nearfield scenarios, maybe. Where the is no need for a subwoofer.

  Quote:


 The point is, we all know how much power T-amp has, and we just need to know if those 5 watts sound good or not. Only people who have listened toT-amp can offer insight into its sound quality. 
 

Fine, but the original question in this thread wasn't regarding what the T-Amp sounded like, it was concerning whether or not the amp would be powerful enough to drive speakers to a "loud" listening level, depending on the thread starters preferences.

  Quote:


 5 Watts is still 5 Watts, no matter how hard someone tries to make it look insignificant. By definition, 5 Watts is 5 Joules of work per second, and it won't get any smaller than that just becuase someone says it is so "tiny." 
 

Yes, but you also contradicted yourself here. Those 5 watts may sound entirely different from amp to amp, based on design, distortion levels, and so on.


----------



## ucbEE

Quote:


 People keep recommending this amp. Why?

 I'll play devil's advocate and hope you people correct me where I'm blatantly wrong:

 5 watts is nothing!

 You can't go deaf with only 5 watts (if you truly wanted to provide ear-piercing music). And how can any subwoofer give any decent output with only 5 watts unless this "sub" was a 3" driver or something??? 5 watts a channel is only good if you live in a cardboard box!

 I'm still trying to either buy or put together a nice system that has the ability to actually sound good at very low volumes & very high volumes (with a budget of $200), yet I see this amp recommended time and time again and no-one explains why they recommend it!. It must be the current internet boner for amps or something.

 Help me understand WHY!!! 
 

That was the original post. Let's take a look at OP's questions and try to answer them one by one:

  Quote:


 1. People keep recommending this amp. Why? 
 

Because it sounds good to these people with the right equipment and under the right conditions.

  Quote:


 2. I'll play devil's advocate and hope you people correct me where I'm blatantly wrong:
 5 watts is nothing! 
 

5 watts is obviously enough for these said people given the right equipment and the right listening conditions/volume requirements

  Quote:


 3. And how can any subwoofer give any decent output with only 5 watts unless this "sub" was a 3" driver or something??? 
 

I don't think I can answer this question, as I don't use a sub, so someone who has ACTUALLY TRIED give a response please.

  Quote:


 4. yet I see this amp recommended time and time again and no-one explains why they recommend it!.....Help me understand WHY!!! 
 

refer to question 1


----------



## Necros

Use this a rough guide..

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...alculator.html

 Personally I would only use this amp on small PC like speakers in near field listening, and not bookshelfs or bigger for room level. Considering in my room peaks will be near clipping with this amplifier. I have a good 20dB peak maximum headroom with my amps, compared to the T-Amp. Considering if it clips several hundred quid down the spout (£2000 speakers) might as well get a high quality amp, decent current drive, decent wattage and knowing you're safe.


----------



## xtype

Hahaha.... 
 Some of this conversations is a bit laughable.

 Got a clean 5 watts? 
http://www.avantgarde-usa.com/trio.html
 Any bloody room you like!

 Have a look at Nelson Pass's First Watt page:
http://firstwatt.com/
 And then take a look at his Lowther driven back loaded horns:
http://passdiy.com/

 These will certainly hurt your ears with only 5 watts.

 "5 watts is nothing!"

 Gosh, someone needs to tell all of the people at the High Efficiency Asylum that they are wasting their time and money.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/bbs.html

 "5 Watts is not going to be enough, even with sensitive speakers, in an average room for bassheavy music."

 This is completely incorrect.

 I have some nice Fostex FE Sigma driven horns powered by about three watts of tubes and it gets sufficiently loud (in my 4 metre by 9 metre room) to run my wife out. Plenty of tight, accurate bass.
 And then you bring up subwoofers... no one, including the OP, was contemplating powering a multiple driver subwoofer (as you suggested) with a 5 watt T-Amp anyway. but if you really, really wanted to, there are quite a few front horn subwoofer designs that can sound good with little power.

 But wait, I thought this was "Headphone Hi-Fi", Why are we discussing low power amplifiers for speaker use?

 Cheers,
 -xtype


----------



## Daroid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yorkie* 
_The advice you gave him was just plain wrong. (...)_

 

Your car stalls. You complain to the car dealer offers you two solutions. Either to let him modify the car or buy another car.

 Maybe RnB180 should, as the car dealer, look at what is actually causing the stalling and see what potential modifications and solutions can be done. Exchanging the car for a different car would of course solve the problem altogether. It's not the least wrong, but it is not very professional either. Atleast he knows and explains why the car was stalling.


----------



## yorkie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_I tell it like how it is, his amp was clipping his speakers._

 

That doesn't make your advice correct.

 Please refer to your original statement: "If I were you Id ditch the tamp and get something suitable for your paradigms."

 That's simply not "how it is". The T-Amp is perfectly suitable for the Paradigm Atoms, and there are hundreds of people out there successfully using this combination. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_How many times do I have to say the t amp wont give me enough power for my own use?_

 

Then what are you doing here? You've never heard the T-Amp, so what exactly can you contribute to the discussion beyond pointing out the obvious fact that the T-Amp produces only five good watts? If we wanted to know that we would read the thread title.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Daroid* 
_Your car stalls. You complain to the car dealer offers you two solutions. Either to let him modify the car or buy another car.

 Maybe RnB180 should, as the car dealer, look at what is actually causing the stalling and see what potential modifications and solutions can be done. Exchanging the car for a different car would of course solve the problem altogether. It's not the least wrong, but it is not very professional either. Atleast he knows and explains why the car was stalling._

 

The advice was simply bad. He didn't know what the problem was, and told the person that the T-Amp wasn't suitable for his needs and that he should buy a new amplifier.

 If your head hurts a car mechanic can tell you that you have a headache, but RnB's advice was the equivalent of telling you to get a lobotomy instead of a bottle of aspirin. 

 When I wanted to learn about headphones I came here and read through dozens of threads, confident that the information I would learn here was correct. I don't like to see people handing out bad advice simply for the sake of giving advice, there are a lot of people who will read this thread with a purchase in mind. It's just irresponsible.


----------



## PeterR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_I tell it like how it is, his amp was clipping his speakers. _

 

Speakers don't clip. Amps do.
  Quote:


 I dont know what you mean by his amp clipping. Ive always thought clipping was done to the speakers when a frequency is required but not enough juice is put out, thus the driver trying to recreate that response is unable to resulting in a plateau and the coil starts moving really fast and eventually melts. 
 

The maximum voltage an amp can deliver is limited by its power supply. If the voltage needed to reproduce a certain waveform exceeds this limit, you'll get a waveform with the peaks 'clipped off' at that voltage, making sine waves looking more like square waves. This means higher frequency harmonics are introduced, i.e. distortion.
 check out http://www.rane.com/pdf/note128.pdf


----------



## RnB180




----------



## JeffL

Quote:


 Speakers don't clip. Amps do. 
 

That's not true, either.

 Speakers can clip, if the amount of excursion required to reproduce a given frequency exceeds the drivers limitations.

  Quote:


 Have a look at Nelson Pass's First Watt page:
http://firstwatt.com/
 And then take a look at his Lowther driven back loaded horns:
http://passdiy.com/ 
 

Do you think Nelson Pass would build the thread starter a pair of these speakers for the original $200 price INCLUDING AN AMP?

*GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TOPIC.*


----------



## JWFokker

You could take a pair of Fostex or other high efficiency drivers and put them in a tuned transmission line enclosure with a T-Amp and get down to 50Hz pretty easily for under $200.

 As for a sub, yes, I'd use a different amp. But it's plainly obvious the T-Amp was never intended for use with a sub. That's like complaining that the Cmoy doesn't work well with subs. And you can't bridge the ground wires without bringing the noise floor way up so you'd either have one unused, underpowered channel or you'd have to buy two subs. Then again, two subs isn't such a bad idea. I might try that.

 But seriously, it's a $20-30 amp. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm completely willing to mod my amp for an additional $10 in parts to make it sound significantly better. 

 All it's detractors should be pleased to know that they're going to release a hot rodded version in the not too distant future that uses RCA jacks, has an aluminum case, probably uses better quality caps and resistors and all that crap. They'll be charging $200 for it, a more suitable price for such high quality audio. Maybe you'll buy one then. I'll have mine running off a cheap PSU off ebay and modded Panasonic FM caps for a quarter the price.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JWFokker* 
_You could take a pair of Fostex or other high efficiency drivers and put them in a tuned transmission line enclosure with a T-Amp and get down to 50Hz pretty easily for under $200.

 As for a sub, yes, I'd use a different amp. But it's plainly obvious the T-Amp was never intended for use with a sub. That's like complaining that the Cmoy doesn't work well with subs. And you can't bridge the ground wires without bringing the noise floor way up so you'd either have one unused, underpowered channel or you'd have to buy two subs. Then again, two subs isn't such a bad idea. I might try that.

 But seriously, it's a $20-30 amp. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm completely willing to mod my amp for an additional $10 in parts to make it sound significantly better. 

 All it's detractors should be pleased to know that they're going to release a hot rodded version in the not too distant future that uses RCA jacks, has an aluminum case, probably uses better quality caps and resistors and all that crap. They'll be charging $200 for it, a more suitable price for such high quality audio. Maybe you'll buy one then. I'll have mine running off a cheap PSU off ebay and modded Panasonic FM caps for a quarter the price._

 

You dont get it, the people that say 5 watts is too little ALREADY have superior amplifiers. there is not buying it no matter how hot rod it is. its still a down grade..

 I think its not up to par to my standards. so according to people here in this post, my opinion doesnt count, because I dont use a t amp, but a higher current surround receiver.
 There is a reason you dont see posts like these in a home theater forum. oddly there are a lot of fanatical users on head fi, 

 Tamp supporters at a HI FI forum would be in the minority, why? because people there have equipment that would already slap that little amp silly. It sounds good, but if you think this amp is a very good replacement for something thats actually designed for serious 2 channel listening youre kdding yourself.

 If youre buying it because its cheap and sound good for the price, than thats totally understandable.

 but you aint gonna see anyone there ditching their mono block solid state/tube pre amp combo for a t amp.


----------



## PeterR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JeffL* 
_That's not true, either.

 Speakers can clip, if the amount of excursion required to reproduce a given frequency exceeds the drivers limitations.
_

 

Strictly speaking that's right, but it's more of a soft clipping as the voice coil starts leaving the magnetic field. By the time you really get hard clipping and reach the mechanical stops, accompanied by the sound of the vc hitting the back plate, you're already severely overdriving it.
  Quote:


 Do you think Nelson Pass would build the thread starter a pair of these speakers for the original $200 price INCLUDING AN AMP? 
 

180$ won't be enough if you want to hire Nelson, and plenty if you do it yourself...
 The point was that there are very high quality low powered amplifiers, and that their low power can be more than sufficient when paired with the right speakers (which in smaller rooms really don't need to be giant horns, unless your desire is to 'go deaf', to use the OP's words). So 5W doesn't necessarily make an amp a bad amp, it just can mean it's the wrong amp for you.
 Anyway, what's all this commotion? We're talking about a 20$ amp here, yet accuse it of not blowing Krells out of the water?


----------



## yorkie

RnB, it's alright if you want to judge an audio component you've never heard, but I don't appreciate your reference to 'standards' nor the fact that you're calling people you don't know 'fanatical'.

 Noone is saying that the T-Amp eliminates the need for high end receivers. People are just saying that it's a very solid, musical amplifier which can give people a taste for hi-fi sound for under 50$.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_
 If youre buying it because its cheap and sound good for the price, than thats totally understandable.
_

 



 .


----------



## yorkie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_If youre buying it because its cheap and sound good for the price, than thats totally understandable._

 

Only you would call an amplifier that can easily compete with products that cost twenty times as much "cheap and sound good good for the price". Until you buy a T-Amp you'll never realise exactly how much of an understatement that really is. 

 You can keep trying to phrase the T-Amp in a negative light, but the fact is that even ignoring the price it's a very solid, detailed receiver that is easily capable of satisfying a critical listener. With a few simple DIY modifications it can be made even better, and the price is just icing on the cake.


----------



## JWFokker

If he were to every actually hear one he wouldn't admit to liking it no matter what, no less that it competes with much more expensive amplifiers. Apparently it must have enormous power and cost thousands of dollars to sound this good, regardless of what professional reviewers and people who have ACTUALLY HEARD THE AMP have to say.


----------



## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JWFokker* 
_If he were to every actually hear one he wouldn't admit to liking it no matter what, no less that it competes with much more expensive amplifiers. Apparently it must have enormous power and cost thousands of dollars to sound this good, regardless of what professional reviewers and people who have ACTUALLY HEARD THE AMP have to say._

 


 my amp is was pretty cheap too, I like it. Im sure the t amp sounds great. My amp only cost me a few hundred dollars on sale, are you say the t amp sounds better, since. doesnt have enormous power, just 50 watts all channel driven. It also cost less then $1k too.

 are you saying the t amp will sound better?

 I like my sound loud 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Im sure Id probably like the sound of it, but I just need something with more inputs, power and authority. So it wont work for me. I dont see why people can not understand this.

_EDITED out photos since UCebb complained._

 functionality is also important, which is why I cant use the t amp. I need more then two speaker spring clips.


 my receiver is pretty heavy and large, I plan on switching it out with the panny digital amp, once I read more info on the 55 model. I heard that the amp has excessive brightness. So I will need to listen to it first before making a definate decision.


----------



## JeffL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JWFokker* 
_If he were to every actually hear one he wouldn't admit to liking it no matter what, no less that it competes with much more expensive amplifiers. Apparently it must have enormous power and cost thousands of dollars to sound this good, regardless of what professional reviewers and people who have ACTUALLY HEARD THE AMP have to say._

 

How can I hear this amp? It doesn't get loud enough to be heard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I'm sure it sounds good, but 5 watts is not enough, unless you have a serious horn loaded system, which I'm sure all of you do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Even then, I'm sure a good class A amp would sound far better.

 What you all seem to forget is that this amp is not for everyone! But oh yeah, since hearing is believe, I don't know anything about this amp, and you'll just ignore this post.


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## philodox

The T-amp sounds great with the speakers that come with it... especially when you take into account that they are made out of cardboard.


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## Ferbose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RnB180* 
_my amp is was pretty cheap too, I like it. Im sure the t amp sounds great. My amp only cost me a few hundred dollars on sale, are you say the t amp sounds better, since. doesnt have enormous power, just 50 watts all channel driven. It also cost less then $1k too.

 are you saying the t amp will sound better?
_

 

Ha... Mirage Omnipolar speakers. I would imagine they are great for movies and music alike.
 To answer your question, I guess the answer would be yes. 
 While T-amp would not play louder or drive six speakers, it will most likely sound better in a two-channel setup. 
 BTW, it is the amplifier that clips, not the speaker. When the amp is asked to output more current or voltage than it is capable, distortions becomes very high and becomes very audible. If pushed far beyond clipping, the amp becomes unstable and may catch fire or even destroy speakers with DC. Most hi-fi speakers can reach frightening volumes before they clip. Of course, crappy computer speakers can clip.


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## ucbEE

Listen, you silly people who intend on thread-crapping. The reason you are recieving such a negative response is because you have nothing useful to say. People read this thread expecting to find information about the T-amp. You fill the thread with the same statement repeated over and over. I don't care what kind of sweet system you have at home. I don't want to see useless pictures of a movie playing on your awesome HDTV that you _have _to show everyone. I don't see how your posts have a positive effect on this discussion. People want to know about the amp, not about YOU. Put your damn ego away and shut the hell up.


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## RnB180

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ucbEE* 
_Listen, you silly people who intend on thread-crapping. The reason you are recieving such a negative response is because you have nothing useful to say. People read this thread expecting to find information about the T-amp. You fill the thread with the same statement repeated over and over. I don't care what kind of sweet system you have at home. I don't want to see useless pictures of a movie playing on your awesome HDTV that you have to show everyone. I don't see how your posts have a positive effect on this discussion. People want to know about the amp, not about YOU. Put your damn ego away and shut the hell up._

 


 I did leave the thread, but people keep quoting my old posts and calling me out again.

 like you are doing right now. a bit hypocritical about defining thread crapping.

 when it comes down to it. I talk about equipment, bashers though attack me personally like the example above.

 your post had no contribution whatsoever other then to incite flamatory response. Do you expect me to insult you personally in retaliation? what exactly do you think you are accomplishing with an indignant post like that?

 btw posted my system after the jwfokker remark insulting what I use.

 and correction not HDTV, 7.5' front projection 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 cool your jets, its only a sonic t argument, no need to get your panties in a ruffle. Im sure yorker and fokker, wont hate me just because I agree to disagree. 

 They would think im Sonic t ignorant, but thats okay with me, your post however was just in poor taste.

 Im sure people dont want to know about me, thats good to point out
 but

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JWFokker* 
_If he were to every actually hear one he wouldn't admit to liking it no matter what, no less that it competes with much more expensive amplifiers. Apparently it must have enormous power and cost thousands of dollars to sound this good, regardless of what professional reviewers and people who have ACTUALLY HEARD THE AMP have to say._

 


 but you know what? that SURE does sound like something thats directed at me doesnt it? and it does indeed sound like challenge of equipment versus the t amp.

 people were actually quite respectful throughout the thread,

 UCebb, you however had crossed the line with that post, a real shameful exhibition of character.


 PS: what you refer to as "thread crapping" are valid answers, what did you expect from a title like "T-amp ONLY produces 5 good watts..." did youeven read the original post? theres going to be supporters and non-supporters.

 bye bye


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## ucbEE

You're right on one point RnB, taking a look at what I wrote, I do realize that it is very imflammatory. I apologize. There really wasn't a good reason for me to use such harsh language. 

 Regarding other things, 
 Of course I read the original post, just read my first response in this thread. Learn a thing or two about staying on topic. That is what I mean by thread-crapping. Your posting of your equipment only helped prove JWFokker's point. The T-amp is for people on a tight budget. I'm glad that your amp "only" cost you a *few* hundred dollars. T-amp is 30 bucks man. What a wonderful world it would be if we were all so fortunate as to be able to preceed "a few hundred dollars" with "only". 

  Quote:


 Apparently it must have enormous power and cost thousands of dollars to sound this good, regardless of what professional reviewers and people who have ACTUALLY HEARD THE AMP have to say. 
 

apparently yes. I put my ego away and apologized. Before you respond, RnB, you should do the same.


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## RnB180

actually ive already contacted yorker and jwfokker via pm clarifying my position on the argument.

 I just chose not to involve it in the thread.

 you quoted fokkers comment about amplifiers with enormous power and costing thousands of dollars to sound as good as a t amp. if you read my answer doesnt take much to link why I posted the reply I did.


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## RnB180

BTW, I thought this post's intent was to get a heated debate/argument going from both sides. If anyone feels that it gets too hot in here, theres another pro/supportive sonic t amp thread a few posts down thats perfect for just gobs of sonic t amp info.

 this psot however started off as a comparison and debate between supporters and non-supporters. at least thats how I understood it as.


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## rickcr42

First of all some administrative duties from "moderator" rickcr42:

 Keep the discussion civil and on topic or I will lock the thread.This will be said once and only once .I let this go long enough hoping for self moderation but obviously not happening in my lifetime so you are all on notice to keep it on the high ground

 OK."Member" rickcr42 post.

 Use a low power amp with inefficient speakers and you are looking for trouble unless you listen entirely in the nearfield and even there the lack of headroom can be problematic in some cases.
 Another variable having an effect on the amp/speaker interface exclusive of efficiency is the crossover network.Many don't take this into account but trust me on this,some complex crossovers not only can but do have an effect on the sound of an amp and in extreme cases on the very stability of the amp.
 It is not unknown for a highly reactive passive crossover to send some amp designs into oscillation and even take out the entire output stage.

 The particulars of the T-amp are an unknown to me because I have absolutely zero interest in the technology so my statement is more of the general "amp/speaker" variety and not "T-AMp/Speaker" type.

 common sense will tell you that if you play loud then build a system accordingly and clipping BTW is NOT the same as a loudspeaker scraping against the voice coil.

 one is electrical in nature and is the result of trying to produce more power than the amp is capable of 

 the other is mechanical in nature and is the attempt to make the cone travel further than it is able

 But what clipping CAN do is overheat the voice coil of any tweeters because they attempt to reproduce ultrasonic sounds (the clipping is a square wave) which being in a zone not intended by the designer is also an unprotected area and will melt the VC wires requiring a tweeter replacement.

 Loud music peaks even at triple a speaker power handling is usually fine but ultrasonic noise is not and that is what a clipping amp is putting out.

 assemble your systems with some common sense and with levels in mind and you need never face the problem.

 BTW-other than my rear channel amp ALL my amplifiers are 10 Watts or less SE class-A so lowish power can work if sprinkled with some common sense and limits


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## JWFokker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_Use a low power amp with inefficient speakers and you are looking for trouble unless you listen entirely in the nearfield and even there the lack of headroom can be problematic in some cases._

 

This is exactly the point. Use the T-Amp for what it's intended for and it will excel. No one said the T-Amp was for driving 10" drivers down to 20hz. It's for nearfield listening or systems with efficient speakers, nothing more. Volume levels are entirely dependent upon the efficiency of the driver for ANY amp. Your amp has a fixed limit to how much power it puts out and what the speaker does with it will determine how it sounds and more importantly, how loud it gets. If you use 84db speakers, no, the T-Amp will not be particularly loud even at it's limits. But use 93db speakers (not expensive or uncommon) and it will be more than loud enough to permanently damage your hearing.

 Most of the arguement against the T-Amp centers around unrealistic uses for it and refusal to accept the fact that the T-Amp produces clarity and a soundstage on par with far more expensive amps. No one said the T-Amp is the be all end all of amplifiers. It won't replace your monoblock sub amp. It won't replace your home theater receiver. But with reasonably efficient speakers it can replace your stereo receiver. The clarity and soundstage are exceptional. The T-Amp is strictly for two channel use, so I don't even know why home theater receivers are being mentioned.

 If you want a two channel amplifier and have efficient speakers, get the T-Amp. But buy a separate amp for your sub.


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## mono

Old thread but it's always nice to get more opinions.

 I've modded a T-amp to run off a 13.1V, ~ 1.5 amp linear supply with misc other common mods. Driving junk 87dB speakers in the garage (formerly tested in a carpeted, curtained, furnished room) it's plenty loud enough for normal listening levels. It's ~10W good watts are not enough for the brief periods one might want very loud music but it's entirely loud enough for listening levels you'd use continuously in a moderate-sized room. That makes it a steal for the price and one would typically find worse sound quality if they only focused on wattage alone.

 I"m not suggesting this is all an audio lover could ever want for their primary amp in a normal (home?) room. Rather, what it can do it does very well.


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## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mono* 
_I've modded a T-amp to run off a 13.1V, ~ 1.5 amp linear supply_

 

From what I understand, you shouldnt need to mod the T-amp to achieve this... it will run fine off of a PSU with those specs in stock form. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mono* 
_with misc other common mods._

 

Cool, what else did you do to it? I've been thinking about trying that aluminum chassis upgrade kit myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mono* 
_Driving junk 87dB speakers in the garage (formerly tested in a carpeted, curtained, furnished room) it's plenty loud enough for normal listening levels. It's ~10W good watts are not enough for the brief periods one might want very loud music but it's entirely loud enough for listening levels you'd use continuously in a moderate-sized room. That makes it a steal for the price and one would typically find worse sound quality if they only focused on wattage alone._

 

Great, I have 89dB speakers on the way that I plan on setting up in my office... should work just fine.


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## mono

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_From what I understand, you shouldnt need to mod the T-amp to achieve this... it will run fine off of a PSU with those specs in stock form.Cool, what else did you do to it? I've been thinking about trying that aluminum chassis upgrade kit myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Great, I have 89dB speakers on the way that I plan on setting up in my office... should work just fine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Poor choice of wording on my part, but the power related mods involved taking it out of the case and getting rid of switch, replacing the cap, adding a few, then a linear supply similar to a steps but a bit beefier. This was more of a passing comment than an attempt at enumerating all or the remaining mods done to it as there are sufficient threads already devoted to that. Mainly the point would be that having high enough current potential and higher voltage is useful within the context of this thread about it's output power.

 There are other issues with getting max power out of it in stock form though, because at some point SI stopped soldering the chip's heat-spreader to the board, resulting in far worse heat retention. 

 I ended up using a hefty soldering gun (not pencil iron) to add quite a bit of solder to (re)heatsink it as it was intended in the first place. You'll see clearly enough what I mean if/when you look at a newer SI board in person. That's a bit risky though, you have to do it quickly to minimize the heat buildup on the chip. I did it in waves by adding a little at a time, letting it cool, then refluxing and getting it all to flow together as fast as possible. Even then I was concerned about the chip getting hot. It survived though.

 Plus I took the ground point to that added solder slug so the wires themselves draw heat away too. 

 I was going to go with a hammond Al case but it just seems overdone, using a Hammond wouldn't be all that interesting to me, plus after adding up the costs it was getting harder and harder to justfiy building it up to be a $100 amp when there are better kits out there if you want to go that route (like those from 41hz Anyway I had an old router case lying around and vinyl dyed it. Also managed to salvage the ciruit board's power filtration stage plus it was a good (easy) way to mount it all.

 After reading this thread I started playing around with it some more because I'd cased it up without really finishing it 100%, wanted a large front panel lightup power indicator but only had an LED in it. Plus I'd ordered some nice speaker binding posts but upon receiving my order they were conspicously missing, sold out apparently. I got impatient and just threw a leftover spring-clip on it, may change it to original plan again next time I need more parts from someplace with suitable binding posts.


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## philodox

Wow, sounds like youve done some serious mods there.


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## sumone

ha...I eventually ended up buying the T-amp.

 Guess what it's doing now...

 ...the same thing my old textbooks from school that I never use are doing!

 I also ended up buying the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1s. They're decent to me.

 However, in the back of my mind I keep thinking that the small mids aren't good. What I mean, is that if the speaker enclosure isn't at least a foot high, 6" wide & a foot deep, that the midbass would be weak and that the mids wouldn't sound as "beefy" & full and come out on the harsh side.

 I don't know. I'm still new to this area.


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## mono

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_Wow, sounds like youve done some serious mods there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well I knew how I wanted it and appreciate that it serves a niche. Any other alternative that produces same or better sound will tend to be larger, more power hungry (including greater cooling/ambient-temp considerations), and obviously costlier. I'm not really sure why some try to argue that it's not the best_thing_since_sliced_bread. Of course it's not, but it's still a nice little amp for those needing something with it's qualities. 

 I don't recall exact figures but roughly speaking the majority of the time I was listening to it, it wasn't even using 200mA current, That's barely over 2.5W going into it, just a touch over 1W/ch. out.


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## sumone

mono,

 May I ask what kind of sound you're looking for out of the T-amp; the reason you're doing all these mods?

 In other words, with a flat-out stock T-amp, what do you consider is "wrong" (probably a poor word choice) about the sound? Explaining examples like, "I changed the _______ part to do ______ to the sound", etc. would be good enough.

 ...I'm just trying to "train" or "tune" my hearing.


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## mono

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sumone* 
_mono,

 May I ask what kind of sound you're looking for out of the T-amp; the reason you're doing all these mods?

 In other words, with a flat-out stock T-amp, what do you consider is "wrong" (probably a poor word choice) about the sound? Explaining examples like, "I changed the _______ part to do ______ to the sound", etc. would be good enough.

 ...I'm just trying to "train" or "tune" my hearing._

 

I changed POT to improve tracking.

 I changed input coupling caps to lower high-pass filter (more/lower bass) and less coloration, and less coloration from replacement of SMD input resistor with external metal-films matched to keep L/R channels as near same level as reasonable.
 I added power supply to reduce power ripple and increase pre-distortion output level.

 I recased it because these bits don't fit in the original SI case and it looked _too_ junky, in addition to being light enough that cables might pull it off the shelf. Plus I wanted RCA jack input because minijacks have poor contact, wear out and stress the tiny circuit board pads. The rear of the SI case was already cramped enough.

 Added normal volume knob because I like to be able to turn a knob normally- not sure what SI was thinking with that flush-mount smooth knob.

 I wasn't wanting to use a SLA battery/recharging all the time and realized that technically it was inferior to a linear supply with a lot of near-amp capacitance.

 I put a metal partition in it to reduce EMI from transformer to SI board and I/O wires.

 Added solder to chip 'sink plate because it's MEANT to be 'sinked like that, not sure why SI stopped doing it and I'd heard of others who had theirs getting quite hot.

 The original spring-clips were too small and poorer contact after time passes. I'd _wanted_ binding posts and as mentioned previously had ordered some, but they never came and I was anxious to get the rest of the thing completed (some prjects, once shelved for awhile, never get finished in a timely manner) so I just reused some slightly-better spring-terminals I'd removed from some other amp before upgrading it's terminals. So, I ended up with it finished and working fine, just need to get more binding posts someday and decide on front panel light... was thinking something that read "tripath".

 It should be noted that most of the mods I did, used parts I already had, I would not spend $100 on one of these, and probably not $50 in addition to the amp cost. Even so, when all is said and done if someone didn't "need" more than 5W/ch, they're not going to be able to build anything else better for lower cost.

 If I get motivated I'll post a quick pic of mine.


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## comabereni

I hope you can "get motived". I'd like to see your finished amp.

 -coma


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## mono

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *comabereni* 
_I hope you can "get motived". I'd like to see your finished amp.

 -coma_

 

Heh, motivated meant more like sleep and time...
 It's still not finished though, have to replace the rear speaker posts and get the light in front, but if I got apathetic about it then I _could_ just leave it as-is I suppose.


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## comabereni

That looks *cool*. I love how you can recase these things in almost anything and have the sound be so impressive. Yeah, that's really neat.

 -coma


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