# Cardas Myrtle Wood Blocks



## vcoheda

i just ordered some cardas myrtle wood blocks to use as resonance/vibration control for my G08. i wanted to try something for it and had read pretty decent reviews about these blocks. they were only around $45, so i did not think the risk was too great. if they do something positive to the sound, great. if not, no big deal.

 does anyone have any experience with them.

 thanks


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## nick20

I don't, but I saw these as well, on AudioAdvisor, and was somewhat interested. 


 I am however, interested in hearing your initial impressions/opinion on these. It's $45 for 6 blocks, correct?


http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CRMWB




 Happy listening,


 -Nick


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## vcoheda

those are the ones. they come in 2 sizes, large and small. i got the larger ones. why not. only a little more. they give you six blocks, which you can use for two components in pyramid formation. i am only going to use it with my G08, at least initially, so i will use four in a square and set the other two aside.


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_those are the ones. they come in 2 sizes, large and small. i got the larger ones. why not. only a little more. they give you six blocks, which you can use for two components in pyramid formation. i am only going to use it with my G08, at least initially, so i will use four in a square and set the other two aside._

 


 I was thinking about using 3 & 3, like you said. But am not sure between the Isopod/cone combo or these? I like the look of solid wood, but I've heard the Iso's do a good job at what they're supposed to do. 


 Please do report back and share your thoughts with us on these. 




 Happy listening,



 -Nick


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## chesebert

I had 2 sets of cardas block. They didn't work well in my situation; that's not to say they didn't have a perceivable sound. On the contrary, their effects were very obvious. 

 My rack (Ikea tables) are not very good at dissipating the vibration and putting a wood block on wood table introduces vibration into my components instead of moving the vibration away from them. 

 I would suggest you use cardas block with a somewhat good rack that can dissipate the vibration into the ground.

 <the very fact that some wood block can alter the sound amazes me>


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had 2 sets of cardas block. They didn't work well in my situation; that's not to say they didn't have a perceivable sound. On the contrary, their effects were very obvious. 

 My rack (Ikea tables) are not very good at dissipating the vibration and putting a wood block on wood table introduces vibration into my components instead of moving the vibration away from them. 

 I would suggest you use cardas block with a somewhat good rack that can dissipate the vibration into the ground.

 <the very fact that some wood block can alter the sound amazes me>_

 


 Since I still live at home, and will be using a solid wood set of drawers in my room, are you saying the wood on wood won't work? Would I be better off with some type of rubber (ie. Vibrapod/cone) instead of wood?

 Like this?








 Err, sorry for the short thread jack vcoheda..


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## lextek

The Cardas blocks look nice.


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## vcoheda

what is the cardas logo a picture of anyway and what is the rationale behind it, if anyone knows.


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## lextek

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what is the cardas logo a picture of anyway and what is the rationale behind it, if anyone knows.




_

 

I believe it is similar to nautilus shell. B&W used the design in a high end speaker. What it means I have no idea.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.sacredarch.com/sacred_geo_exer_shell.htm

 Seems like something to do with "secret ratio".


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## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since I still live at home, and will be using a solid wood set of drawers in my room, are you saying the wood on wood won't work? Would I be better off with some type of rubber (ie. Vibrapod/cone) instead of wood?

 Like this?








 Err, sorry for the short thread jack vcoheda.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

lol..that's exactly what I use. I am not saying wood on wood is bad. What I am saying is my wood table is not coupled to the floor (its actually sits on top of the carpet), so the table tend to 'retain' the vibration.


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lol..that's exactly what I use. I am not saying wood on wood is bad. What I am saying is my wood table is not coupled to the floor (its actually sits on top of the carpet), so the table tend to 'retain' the vibration._

 

PM sent, so vcoheda can have his thread back.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 -Nick


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## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lextek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe it is similar to nautilus shell. B&W used the design in a high end speaker. What it means I have no idea.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.sacredarch.com/sacred_geo_exer_shell.htm

 Seems like something to do with "secret ratio"._

 

from that link:

  Quote:


 The Nautilus Shell Spiral

 The shell of the chambered nautilus is a symbol of beauty and proportional perfection. 
 

that's cool. i think that is right. even if the blocks don't work or work to my liking, i'll have some nice decorations.


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## Icarium

Isn't the inner ear similar in shape to a nautilus?


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## sugarinthegourd

The Nautilus shell's dimensions are based on the Golden Ratio, aka Phi. See also Fibonacci series, etc. I think Cardas uses some version of the Golden Ratio in choosing strand diameters for their cables. There are many books on the Golden Ratio/Phi if anyone wants to learn more...

 John


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## vcoheda

got the cardas blocks today. the 6 wooden blocks come in a nice velvet-type pouch. they come in two sizes, small and large. i got the large blocks. but even they are kind of small. each block measures 1" x 1.618" x 2.618". very nice looking wood with some type of lacquer finish and of course each block has that cool-looking cardas logo on it - whatever it may be. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 my current setup sits on a very large - think oversized 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - wooden end table. the G08 rests on the table with nothing underneath. on top of the G08 is a thin yet sturdy piece of oak wood, then the apache power supply and then the apache amp. the apache power supply and amp each have four still points for vibration/resonance control. i read that the most typical configuration was to use 3 blocks in the shape of a pyramid with 2 in the back and 1 in the front. this is also convenient as 6 blocks allows for use with two components. my only intention was to use them under my G08 player, so i planned to use 4 - one at each corner.

 the G08 is heavy and the stuff on top of it is not terribly light. it took me a while to set everything up - to get the 4 blocks under the four corners of the player. also, i realized as i was trying to situate the blocks that the bottom of the G08 is not entirely flat. at each corner, there are smallish rubber pads - so the blocks did not sit entirely flush at the corners. but they seemed good enough. before i set up the blocks i listened to a a few tracks of a CD i am familiar with. i listened again with the blocks. could not detect any difference. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 went back and forth a while - blocks, no blocks; 3 blocks, 4 blocks; blocks at corners or closer to middle. after about 1.5 hours, i concluded that if there were any differences, i could not detect them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 next tried 3 or 4 blocks under the amp portion. no change. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 final test. 4 blocks under the power supply instead of the still points. 1st track. omg! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 what happened. very noticeable increase in sound stage and imaging - not subtle. removed the blocks. everything got a bit smaller. put the blocks back. larger. why they did nothing under the CD player or amp, i don't know, but under the power supply. yes. they work. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i guess you just have to play around with them for a while.

 edit: 3 or 4 blocks under the power supply seem to have the same effect, so i'm going with 3 under the power supply and 3 under the amp portion - 2 in the back and 1 front center. definitely worth the $40+ or so i spent.


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## Asr

You're situating the blocks directly in contact with the chassis, right? They're not supposed to be supports for rubber or spiked feet to sit on but rather supports for the chassis itself, according to what I've read about them.


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## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're situating the blocks directly in contact with the chassis, right? They're not supposed to be supports for rubber or spiked feet to sit on but rather supports for the chassis itself, according to what I've read about them._

 

no. i didn't know that. there are no instructions with the blocks. just a small piece of paper describing the wonderful properties of myrtle wood. but i did try the blocks under the chassis with the G08. i used every configuration i could think of and at different placements. some differences in audio are immediately apparent; others are only noticeable over time, but of no less importance. maybe they do have a positive affect when used under the G08 and it is of the latter kind. i don't know.


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## nick20

vcoheda, would you mind taking a few pictures of them in use?


 And your using the blocks on the bare chassis, correct, and not using the blocks under the rubber/metal feet?




 Thanks,


 -Nick


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## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_vcohea, would you mind taking a few pictures of them in use?And your using the blocks on the bare chassis, correct, and not using the blocks under the rubber/metal feet?_

 

sorry. no camera (lame, i know). and yes. i am using 4 blocks under the chassis of the apache power supply and tried them under the chassis of the G08 and amp with no noticeable effect. as mentioned, maybe a longer A/B period would have revealed some changes.


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## gritzcolin

Or how about but cheap gear and not have to worry about "vibration" this is another one of these snake oil thing I still just don't buy into. All this high end gear needs special mounting or it sounds like crap? If thats the case count me out and i will stick with cheap gear that sounds good even when im jumping around. Only thing i can kinda buy are cd players and record players but solid state amps come one what moving parts are you protecting?


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## vcoheda

^ thanks for the insightful comments.


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## ingwe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what is the cardas logo a picture of anyway and what is the rationale behind it, if anyone knows.




_

 

Rent the movie _Pi_. All will be explained.


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## jinp6301

golden ratio!!!


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## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what is the cardas logo a picture of anyway and what is the rationale behind it, if anyone knows.




_

 

Yes it's a cut away view of a Nautilus shell. The Nautilus shell symbolizes life, internal harmony, and the perfection of nature, so that may be what Cardas is trying to invoke with their logo. 

 The Myrtle blocks may or may not work well, but it seems like a lofty price for something that could so easily be made at home. Myrtle wood is not that expensive. Of coarse if you have no access to tools it's not ridiculous like some other anti resonance devices.
 I've used the Vibrapods and Vibracones, and they work quite well. I've recently purchased some of the rubber/cork/rubber sandwiched blocks, and am having great results with them. I paid $10.00 for a set of four.


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## vcoheda

found this from stereophile. mirrors my findings to a tee.


> In my "Follow-Up" on Ayre Acoustics' AX-7e integrated amplifier in the January 2006 issue, I mentioned my fondness for Ayre's Myrtle Block isolation devices. The Myrtle Blocks happen to be designed and made by Cardas Audio, also in accordance with the aforementioned golden-section ratio (each block measures 0.618" by 1" by 1.61"). Unlike other things that come and go in less than a season's time, I'm still using the Ayre Myrtle Blocks; they remain my favorite and most heartily recommended cheap tweak.
> 
> There isn't much of a trick to using these tiny isolation blocks, the only hurdle being the way certain audio products are shaped: Ayre Myrtle Blocks are meant to be used in groups of three, and they want to go underneath the actual structure of a given component, not its feet—yet the columnar legs of products such as the Yamamoto A-08 amplifier are too tall to allow that. Other products are just too oddly configured—a Linn LP12 with its bottom cover discarded (the way I like to run them), for example, or those large, open-design turntables whose pointed feet are themselves too tall.
> 
> ...


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *swt61* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've used the Vibrapods and Vibracones, and they work quite well. I've recently purchased some of the rubber/cork/rubber sandwiched blocks, and am having great results with them. I paid $10.00 for a set of four._

 


 How much did you pay for the pod/cone combo? 

 The myrtle wood blocks are about $7 a block, which isn't very expensive, of course you have to buy 6, which allows you to use 3 per component, but nonetheless, $7 a piece is very in-expensive IMO. 

 I have also seen the cork/rubber blocks you mentioned too.. I think I'll pick up these instead:

http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/2650

 and maybe the Cardas blocks, and see what difference I can tell, if any.


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## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what is the cardas logo a picture of anyway and what is the rationale behind it, if anyone knows.




_

 

Yes, that is a shell, but the purpose behind is to illustrate the magic of the "Golden Ratio", or specifically, the "Golden Spiral". No, it is not art only, the Golden Ratio has a strong mathematical base and it has fascinated many because when you look at many things around us, the Golden Ratio is at play.

 Some interesting links :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

http://www.cuip.net/~dlnarain/golden/activities.htm

 And Cardas use the Golden Ratio in their cable design, as they so claimed.

 F. Lo


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## fkclo

Just to add the following on how Cardas connect their cable design (patented) with the Golden Section.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...n+Stereo+Magic

 I am pretty sure if you measure the aspect ration of the Gardas block, the figure may sound familiar 

 F. Lo


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## edstrelow

As a partial response to some of the observations made above and the sceptical comment about no moving parts to cause vibrations, transformers vibrate quite a bit and that might be why dissipating transformer vibration helps. I would assume what you are getting is microphonics generated by the transformer vibration, essentially all the components are vibrated by the transformer. The effects may be subtle but will be more obvious with good equipment.

 I also agree that even cheap equipment benefits from vibration control, in fact it may be one of the cheapest ways to improve sound quality. I put small sorbethane pads ( cut from a larger sheet) under my portable cd player and then of course make sit the player and pads on a firm surface such as a hard table or even a jewel case. I find a major improvement in clarity, and soundstage.

 You can get sheets of sorbethane from many locations even from Edmund Scientific for about $20.00.

 I can sympathize a little bit with some sceptics who wonder about some tweaks and various upgrades. For many years I couldn't see the point of better grade IC's but at some point I did enough listening and realized that some of these things do work. Things like sorbethane are pretty inexpensive and even if you decide they don't work it's all part of the hobby.


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## gritzcolin

Myrtle wood Bam just saved you tons of money now you can even have extra for the microwave.


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## DarkAngel

I have entire drawer of footer tweaks, have tried many designs over last 20 yrs. For the Myrtle blocks they should contact gear case not under existing feet, I would use only 3 since weight support not an issue and this gives you even stable mount platform.

 There is guy at Audiogon tweak section that makes/sells his own Myrtle blocks for cheaper price........without the Cardas logo.

 Personally I do not use the Myrtle blocks in my systems, but they are simple and easy. I currently use Herbies 1" Tenderfeet and Isocup footers and Mapleshade Brass cones with Maple platforms.

 In the past I found the bearing designs like Aurios and Rollerblock very effective buy a real hassle and heavy cables can mess them up, so to simplify I quit using them.


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## swt61

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much did you pay for the pod/cone combo? 

 The myrtle wood blocks are about $7 a block, which isn't very expensive, of course you have to buy 6, which allows you to use 3 per component, but nonetheless, $7 a piece is very in-expensive IMO. 

 I have also seen the cork/rubber blocks you mentioned too.. I think I'll pick up these instead:

http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/2650

 and maybe the Cardas blocks, and see what difference I can tell, if any._

 

I think I paid $12.00 per pod/cone (so that would be $36.00 per component if three are used). I misunderstood the price of the Myrtle blocks, and agree that $7.00 per block is quite reasonable, especially given the nice aesthetics of the finished product.
 The article from Stereophile was interesting too, and has me wanting to try some Myrtle blocks myself.


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## chesebert

I would not use cardas block unless you have a good rack; cardas block transmits vibrations both ways, so bad rack means vibration up into the component; and that just defeats the purpose of the block.


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## Asr

vcoheda, have you placed the Apache on top of the Meridian, or next to it? I've read reports that weighting down CD players can be just as effective a vibration isolation method as isolator feet or blocks, was wondering if you've tried it. Heavy books can work if the Apache isn't heavy enough, they seem to be a common method.


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## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_vcoheda, have you placed the Apache on top of the Meridian, or next to it? I've read reports that weighting down CD players can be just as effective a vibration isolation method as isolator feet or blocks, was wondering if you've tried it. Heavy books can work if the Apache isn't heavy enough, they seem to be a common method. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

my apache power supply and amp sit atop my G08 - maybe that is isolation in itself. i tried the cardas blocks under the G08 with and without the apache components on top. couldn't detect any difference.


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## Asr

Hrmm, I guess the Meridian is already optimally designed to counter vibration then. Interesting to learn that the blocks had the most effect under the Apache's PSU, I guess there really is some credit to the theory that stabilizing power transformers can result in better sound.


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## vcoheda

EDIT: i was wrong about the G08. the bottom is covered in a different kind of material than the top, but it is not rubber. it is hard kind of plastic. only the corners have the rubber protrusions. also, i experimented more with the blocks and actually do think they make a subtle difference under the G08 - but i noticed that placement is key. before i was using two blocks in back an one front. after playing around with the player, it is clear that the front end is heavier than the back end. so i now use two blocks up front and one back and i think this combination has a beneficial effect - although it is not as apparent as using the blocks under the Apache power supply. to be safe, it is probably easier to use four blocks under all pieces of equipment. i may buy some more just for this purpose.


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i tried the cardas blocks again under my Meridian G08 and did not notice any difference. i found this odd, because site after site people recommend using isolation components under the CD player, because of a noticeable effect. however, when i was taking another look at the G08, i noticed that the entire bottom is covered in a layer of rubber material which then protrudes at the corners to form feet. i think this is the reason the blocks do not work - i.e., there is already isolation there.

 not sure why i didn't notice this before, but it is a semi-heavy player and i do not find myself lifting it up at such an angle as to see clearly the entire bottom half. from what i have read and my experience with them under my Apache, i do think it is likely that the cardas blocks will have a positive effect on other CD players._

 


 I went ahead and ordered a 6-pack of the small blocks.

 I think your CDP's of much better quality, right? And probably uses better isolation/dampening material. 


 My next cheap "tweak" is going to be add some Dynamat dampening material inside my CDP, because of some vibrations I can feel with my hand applying pressure to the CD tray. I found some of these stuff for $12 online, and retails for $40 in stores.







 -Nick


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## fishski13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i tried the cardas blocks again under my Meridian G08 and did not notice any difference. i found this odd, because site after site people recommend using isolation components under the CD player, because of a noticeable effect. however, when i was taking another look at the G08, i noticed that the entire bottom is covered in a layer of rubber material which then protrudes at the corners to form feet. i think this is the reason the blocks do not work - i.e., there is already isolation there.

 not sure why i didn't notice this before, but it is a semi-heavy player and i do not find myself lifting it up at such an angle as to see clearly the entire bottom half. from what i have read and my experience with them under my Apache, i do think it is likely that the cardas blocks will have a positive effect on other CD players._

 

i've had really excellent results with my myrtle blocks under all compenents that are in the speaker/hi-fi chain, except my TT - i prefer my FIM iso-bearings. i have a Salamander rack with shelves made of mdf. the blocks clean up the bass quite a bit, including overall speed and transient detail throughout the other registers - the music just flows better.

 these tweaks fall in the YMMV category. the myrtle blocks are cheap enough to suck it and see. an excellent VFM tweak in my hi-fi.

 PACE


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## Tbln

Silly question for Myrtle block users.

 How are you supposed to orientate the blocks under the equipment? Is it with the Cardas logo facing upwards or facing forwards?

 Thanks.


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tbln* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Questions for Myrtle block users.

 How are you supposed to orientate the blocks under the equipment? Is it with the Cardas logo facing upwards or facing forwards?_

 


 Good question. I just received my 6 blocks today, and had the same question.

 I don't think there is a right or wrong answer however, you may want to experiment with them. 

 This is how I have them; and this is also what I was told was the "proper" way.








 "The Cardas logo facing you..."




 Hope this helps..


 -Nick


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## vcoheda

the logo (i believe) serves two purposes - one is decorative and the second (more importantly) is to mark the alignment of the wood. i read that when using wooden isolation blocks, the grain of the wood should all run in the same direction.

 also, if you using 3 blocks, you will use a pyramid formation - 2 in the back and 1 in the front. this formation could be reversed depending on the where the weight of the component falls - the heavier part is where the 2 blocks should be.


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## fishski13

mine are the lower right with a single notch. Cardas makes these for Ayre with their own logo. the notch is to lift/secure cables if one so chooses to use these for that purpose - i do not. 

 per the dealer i bought them from, it doesn't matter which way they are oriented, just make sure that you are consistant with orientation, and place 2 of them under the heavier side of the component.

 PACE


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishski13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 mine are the lower right with a single notch. Cardas makes these for Ayre with their own logo. the notch is to lift/secure cables if one so chooses to use these for that purpose - i do not. 

 per the dealer i bought them from, it doesn't matter which way they are oriented, just make sure that you are consistant with orientation, and place 2 of them under the heavier side of the component.

 PACE_

 


 Just out of curiosity, these are the same price as the Cardas blocks, correct? From the places I found both the Ayre and Cardas blocks, they were consistent with pricing. 

 Is that true on your end? Mind me asking how much you paid for yours?





 -Nick


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## fishski13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just out of curiosity, these are the same price as the Cardas blocks, correct? From the places I found both the Ayre and Cardas blocks, they were consistent with pricing. 

 Is that true on your end? Mind me asking how much you paid for yours?





 -Nick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

i think i paid $7 or $7.50 a piece + tax. 

 the dealer i bought them from swears by these blocks and sells mdf Salamander and Sanus racks, placing them under every piece of electronics. they really work well with my Salamander rack. 

 PACE


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishski13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i think i paid $7 or $7.50 a piece + tax. 

 the dealer i bought them from swears by these blocks and sells mdf Salamander and Sanus racks, placing them under every piece of electronics. they really work well with my Salamander rack. 

 PACE_

 


 Wow, a pretty significant price difference between the Cardas blocks, which, like you said, are the same thing.

 Cardas single cut are $62 for 6, and the Ayre are $45 for 6 (from your previous post). How long ago did you purchase these? And it sounds like you purchased these locally...?





 -Nick


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## fishski13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, a pretty significant price difference between the Cardas blocks, which, like you said, are the same thing.

 Cardas single cut are $62 for 6, and the Ayre are $45 for 6 (from your previous post). How long ago did you purchase these? And it sounds like you purchased these locally...?





 -Nick_

 

yes, locally last winter, but click the link and note the dimensions. then, go to pg. 3. i think you must have bought the Large size blocks. i have the smaller size - i paid more.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73026

 btw, Exodus is one of my all time favorites. 

 PACE


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## fishski13

sorry, this link will let you view different pages.

http://www.musicdirect.com/category/...id=49&start=25

 PACE


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## fishski13

also, it appears that the Ayre blocks only come in the small size, and are $15 for a set of 3 vs. $51 for a set of 6 Cardas. note the difference in grain patterns, the Cardas is much nicer looking. i bet the Ayre are deemed "seconds" in terms of aesthetics, and badged under this name at a discounted price for Charle Hansen, and thus, anyone who wants to buy them. mine aren't as pretty as the Cardas, but i have them placed perpendicular to the photo in your thread, with the ends of the blocks facing me, colored with a black Sharpie marker to blend in with my black shelves and black components.

 PACE


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishski13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also, it appears that the Ayre blocks only come in the small size, and are $15 for a set of 3 vs. $51 for a set of 6 Cardas. note the difference in grain patterns, the Cardas is much nicer looking. i bet the Ayre are deemed "seconds" in terms of aesthetics, and badged under this name at a discounted price for Charle Hansen, and thus, anyone who wants to buy them. mine aren't as pretty as the Cardas, but i have them placed perpendicular to the photo in your thread, with the ends of the blocks facing me, colored with a black Sharpie marker to blend in with my black shelves and black components.

 PACE_

 


 That's where I bought my Cardas from. Paid $30 for 6 ($5/peice), the same price as the small Ayre. 


 I will agree, the grain patterns I have on 4 of the 6 blocks are downright beautiful. I will likely have my Mom finish these, and she's finished all our unfinished wood in the house for years now.



 OT: Exodus is a solid CD. I like Legends more, because its more of a compilation of his better tracks, but that's like cheating..

 I have not heard any more Bob Marley, but after one listen, I'm hooked. I plan to have most of his CD's before my birthday in April of next year. I'll peck away at it each week, with a new CD purchase. I hear Catch a Fire is his 3rd best album he has. It's my next CD for this week.






 -Nick


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## fishski13

add Kaya to your short list.

 PACE


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## Tbln

Thanks Nick!

 That's what I had expected. Doesn't make sense to have the logo covered up under the equipment right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishski13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_add Kaya to your short list.

 PACE_

 


 Thanks, will do.


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## luvdunhill

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fishski13* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_add Kaya to your short list.

 PACE_

 

seriously, if you can get Kaya blocks, please PM me!


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## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_seriously, if you can get Kaya blocks, please PM me!_

 


 Huh? Kaya blocks?


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## fishski13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luvdunhill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_seriously, if you can get Kaya blocks, please PM me!_

 





smokin'

 PACE


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## bigshot

Who's going to be the first to put "TEAM BLOCK HEAD FI" in their sig?

 See ya
 Steve


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## Kang

I used the mytle blocks for a year or so. Then, I switched to SRA. Stunning improvement, but the cost is also significantly different.


----------



## Oliver :)

Now if that's not some nice myrtle blocks... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, does anyone know what happened to Panda Thumb Audio? Did Gary drop the business?


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Oliver * /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now if that's not some nice myrtle blocks... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, does anyone know what happened to Panda Thumb Audio? Did Gary drop the business?_

 


 If you e-mail him, I am pretty sure he will still make them for you. I read this while searching other threads for Cardas Myrtlewood, and Panda Audio came up as well. The person who posted it said to e-mail him if you wanted something. I believe his e-mail is on his home page...







 -Nick


----------



## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you e-mail him, I am pretty sure he will still make them for you. I read this while searching other threads for Cardas Myrtlewood, and Panda Audio came up as well. The person who posted it said to e-mail him if you wanted something. I believe his e-mail is on his home page..._

 

Yip, you can find it if you use Google's cache. It's a pity that the site seems to be down though. Pandafeet are a very interesting product. While the success of _all_ vibration / isolation products is very much subject to individual setups, Pandafeet have an excellent value for money ratio.


----------



## vcoheda

EDIT: i was wrong about the G08. the bottom is covered in a different kind of material than the top, but it is not rubber. it is hard kind of plastic. only the corners have the rubber protrusions. also, i experimented more with the blocks and actually do think they make a subtle difference under the G08 - but i noticed that placement is key. before i was using two blocks in back an one front. after playing around with the player, it is clear that the front end is heavier than the back end. so i now use two blocks up front and one back and i think this combination has a beneficial effect - although it is not as apparent as using the blocks under the Apache power supply. to be safe, it is probably easier to use four blocks under all pieces of equipment. i may buy some more just for this purpose.

 i now also place a thick and pretty dense soft cover book on top of the player. i think this has a beneficial effect as well. i also experimented with placing the magnetic disk from a 5 1/4 floppy on top of the CD during playback. i A/B'ed for about an hour and could not find any noticeable differences. i think i will try it again though as there is clearly something to CDs becoming magnetised or building up static electricity.


----------



## bigshot

CDs are made of mylar and plastic. They can't become magnetized.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## colonelkernel8

Last time I checked, static electricity wont really effect the reflection of a laser.


----------



## vcoheda

that's okay. i've read otherwise.

 bigshot: don't even bother responding to any of my threads or posts. you're on my ignore list, so i don't read any of them.


----------



## bigshot

Static electricity won't affect the laser, but it can cause pops through the line as it discharges. But once it's discharged, it's over and done with. The big cause of static is dry weather. Putting a floppy disk on top of your CD player won't do diddly to prevent it. A room humidifier might help.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Static electricity won't affect the laser, but it can cause pops through the line as it discharges. But once it's discharged, it's over and done with. The big cause of static is dry weather. Putting a floppy disk on top of your CD player won't do diddly to prevent it. A room humidifier might help.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

The problem is, i think, that people hear a difference when they use such things but that the sellers or manufacturers don't even have a clue of how it exactly works.


----------



## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is, i think, that people hear a difference when they use such things but that the sellers or manufacturers don't even have a clue of how it exactly works._

 

Thing is, even if it's only a placebo, you might think it sounds better, even if you're aware of it most likely being a placebo. All you have to do is decide on whether it is worth the money to you. You can get some very nice whiskey for the price of some "enhancements".


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Oliver * /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thing is, even if it's only a placebo, you might think it sounds better, even if you're aware of it most likely being a placebo. All you have to do is decide on whether it is worth the money to you. You can get some very nice whiskey for the price of some "enhancements"._

 


 Any other ideas for non-drinkers? My parents drink... lots.. however I can't muster the taste of hard liquor, or beer for that matter.


 A nice brew of tea is my thing..


----------



## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any other ideas for non-drinkers? My parents drink... lots.. however I can't muster the taste of hard liquor, or beer for that matter.


 A nice brew of tea is my thing.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes... "tea"... that might be another possibility. Maybe you can find out why the top end on Cyprees Hill records always sounds so... numb.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Oliver * /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes... "tea"... that might be another possibility. Maybe you can find out why the top end on Cyprees Hill records always sounds so... numb._

 


 I like black tea over all brew's, however will settle for green tea, if black is not available.


 Eh, can't say I understand the second sentence. I'm not a fan of Cypress Hill.. sorry.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Oliver * /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thing is, even if it's only a placebo, you might think it sounds better, even if you're aware of it most likely being a placebo. All you have to do is decide on whether it is worth the money to you. You can get some very nice whiskey for the price of some "enhancements"._

 

Everything that is not completely understood is placed under the label placebo. I know of a lot of audio things that are NOT placebo but give real improvements.


----------



## peelax

I think all these threads degenerating into the same boring aruements is ridiculous. Although I agree with people like bigshot I think it would be nice to just leave these threads alone. There is nothing constructive gained by arguing, no one is convinced.

 Admin can we have a sceptics forum?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peelax* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think all these threads degenerating into the same boring aruements is ridiculous. Although I agree with people like bigshot I think it would be nice to just leave these threads alone. There is nothing constructive gained by arguing, no one is convinced.

 Admin can we have a sceptics forum? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Just because you sceptics never listen yet judge something you don't know anything about.

 People who actually used em, say thay make a difference in sound. I use other firbation reduction products and i can tell you that they make a huge impact on sound.

 Placebo is something that doesn't do anything, these products do and it can be heard.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just because you sceptics never listen yet judge something you don't know anything about.

 People who actually used em, say thay make a difference in sound. I use other firbation reduction products and i can tell you that they make a huge impact on sound.

 Placebo is something that doesn't do anything, these products do and it can be heard._

 


 Ahmen!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peelax* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think all these threads degenerating into the same boring aruements is ridiculous. Although I agree with people like bigshot I think it would be nice to just leave these threads alone. There is nothing constructive gained by arguing, no one is convinced._

 

The point isn't to convince people who've proved many times in the past that they won't listen to reason. It's to make sure that a newbie doesn't stumble across this thread and think that the unsubstantiated mojo they're talking about actually works. The same three posters are adept at disguising themselves as a consensus and shouting down any opposition. As soon as they start to lose an argument they start fussing to the admins to lock the thread so they won't lose face. It takes someone as stubborn as me to keep them from turning this forum into magic land.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## LawnGnome

This thread is silly.

 Some schmuck can easily go and create some sort of "issue" and then some sort of "solution" and people will pay huge sums for it.


 EDIT:

 And I'm with bigshot. Ridding these fallacies doesn't involve converting the believers, it involves educating people so they don't fall into the lies.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Placebo is something that doesn't do anything, these products do and it can be heard._

 

You don't really understand what the placebo effect is...

 You're somewhat right, it doesn't do anything, but it makes one think that something is happening.

 I don't think this is correct, but try to think of placebo as a red herring...


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahmen!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just because you sceptics never listen yet judge something you don't know anything about.

 People who actually used em, say thay make a difference in sound. I use other firbation reduction products and i can tell you that they make a huge impact on sound.

 Placebo is something that doesn't do anything, these products do and it can be heard._

 

x2


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are also saying you don't understand the placebo effect?

 By his ways, you shouldn't talk about something you don't know anything about. 

 Guess he should never mention it. Even though he experiences._

 

?


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 x2.. LOL


----------



## peelax

Quote:


 The point isn't to convince people who've proved many times in the past that they won't listen to reason. It's to make sure that a newbie doesn't stumble across this thread and think that the unsubstantiated mojo they're talking about actually works. The same three posters are adept at disguising themselves as a consensus and shouting down any opposition. As soon as they start to lose an argument they start fussing to the admins to lock the thread so they won't lose face. It takes someone as stubborn as me to keep them from turning this forum into magic land.

 See ya
 Steve 
 

OK then I'll wade in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






> Just because you sceptics never listen yet judge something you don't know anything about./QUOTE]
> 
> How is it possible to go through life with that kind of attitude? You cannot try everything for yourself. You have to use something called common sense and I'm afraid my common sense tells me that putting wood blocks under my amp will not result in any difference in the sound, and that any difference I hear will be purely down to the placebo effect as my hearing is _subjective_. If having wood under pieces of audio equipment is that great then why aren't all audio manufacturers doing it? People always seem to forget how much work have gone on previously in audio equipment, doesn't it strike anyone as strange that people keep on making breakthroughs that will revolutionise your listening experience. People also seem to forget that there are far far far far more advanced pieces of electronics out there functioning perfectly, that aren't stuck on pieces of wood!
> 
> I never really understood how people got suckered into these rediculous things with no evidence backing it up ... before I came to this forum, its like a small part of the dark ages has survived.


----------



## bigshot

When they're just posting two or three letter high fives to each other, I think they've run out of gas. It isn't easy to defend severely overpriced blocks of wood with nautilus shell designs on them.

 If you need to put something under your cd player, find a couple of paperback books of similar thickness, or tape some soda bottle caps under the feet. It's always good to have adequate ventilation between components. Heat kills electronics. But you're fooling yourself if you think you hear a difference in your amp because of what you've put under it.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Scrith

I have some of these Cardas wood blocks. They were given to me by NeilPeart because they were a convenient way to seperate the top and bottom halves of my Dynamight amp (which runs quite hot, like most class A amplifiers).

 I didn't notice any improvement in sound with them, probably because I didn't expect to hear one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 These are just pieces of wood, people. They don't even look particularly attractive (compared to, say, the wood used in the Dynaudio speakers I have sitting nearby).

 But you know what...if I had to guess, I would say that the hockey pucks (also from NeilPeart) that I have sitting under the bottom section of the Dynamight have a bigger impact on sound than those wood blocks...let's hear the audiophile explanation for that!


----------



## vcoheda

works for me. guess you're out of luck.


----------



## chesebert

These blocks works for me as well. Although I later upgraded to the tender foot, which gave me a little better bass fullness. 

 I was actually quite surprised that blocks of wood actually makes a difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I always question the type of music those who can't tell the differences are listening to??


----------



## meat01

Quote:


 I always question the type of music those who can't tell the differences are listening to?? 
 

Why would this matter? Do they not affect rap or country? If the blocks change the signal, wouldn't they change the sound on any type of music or speech? They should even change the sound of test tones for that matter.

 Again, this stuff can be measured. If the signal does not measure differently (in your case the bass frequency), then what would your ears be hearing?


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why would this matter? Do they not affect rap or country? If the blocks change the signal, wouldn't they change the sound on any type of music or speech? They should even change the sound of test tones for that matter.

 Again, this stuff can be measured. If the signal does not measure differently (in your case the bass frequency), then what would your ears be hearing?_

 

because synthesized sound and naturally produced sound have different harmonic contents; there are a lot more nuisances in the sound that's naturally produced. e.g. the sound of different types of wood/rosin/string in a violin, not counting the musician himself/herself 

 I did use the crappy radio shack sound meter to measure the difference. I got an additional 1db in the upper bass area without the cardas block (just a rough test). so the block didn't quite work for me, but the fact the block made a difference is pretty interesting.


----------



## tourmaline

peelax;3388165 said:
			
		

> OK then I'll wade in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When they're just posting two or three letter high fives to each other, I think they've run out of gas. It isn't easy to defend severely overpriced blocks of wood with nautilus shell designs on them.

 If you need to put something under your cd player, find a couple of paperback books of similar thickness, or tape some soda bottle caps under the feet. It's always good to have adequate ventilation between components. Heat kills electronics. But you're fooling yourself if you think you hear a difference in your amp because of what you've put under it.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Not thinking, hearing. No placebo, the difference was to huge for that.
 But it isn't always for the good, you know. Some feet make sound worse, some better. it's trial and error to find the best for your setup.

 The only thing i think feet work are under a cdplayer, not so convinced about amps and other components though. ofcourse speakers also benefit from good fibration feet. Tube amps might benefit from it though, not sure about transistor or fet amps.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But it isn't always for the good, you know. Some feet make sound worse, some better. it's trial and error to find the best for your setup._

 

Voodoo.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Oliver :)

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not thinking, hearing. No placebo, the difference was to huge for that.
 But it isn't always for the good, you know. Some feet make sound worse, some better. it's trial and error to find the best for your setup.

 The only thing i think feet work are under a cdplayer, not so convinced about amps and other components though. ofcourse speakers also benefit from good fibration feet. Tube amps might benefit from it though, not sure about transistor or fet amps._

 


 Is fibration some new sort of fad I have missed out on? We're talking vibration, folks... 

 So, once again, isolation and dampening can make for significant changes in the sound of your setup. I agree that the difference is sometimes way too big to be ignored or accredited to placebo. I myself had a "day and night" experience with Pandafeet saving me from changing my hifi-rack again. It was am easy, fast, and pretty well priced operation. The degree of influence of these products on your specific setup is highly individual, from extreme to negligible, but we're definitely not talking magic pebbles, rainbow-foil and snake-oil here.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Voodoo.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I didn't know you were into black magic.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_works for me. guess you're out of luck._

 

Or he is smart enough to know better.

 Unless you think these blocks are magical, and only display their power to those that believe? This is the real world, time to give up the Harry Potter mentality.


----------



## vcoheda

interesting article on isolation devices. includes rankings of various products on the second page. they don't list the cardas blocks though.

http://www.gcaudio.com/products/revi...noverview.html


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_interesting article on isolation devices. includes rankings of various products on the second page. they don't list the cardas blocks though.

http://www.gcaudio.com/products/revi...noverview.html_

 

Yet not a single piece of evidence.

 Even their first sentence is wrong.

 " It’s unquestioned that vibration and resonance alter the sound of our playback systems."


----------



## Scrith

If you expect to hear a difference after installing this (or any similar) object in your system, you probably will. All of this speculation is a complete waste of time without blind tests, I'm afraid.


----------



## vcoheda

maybe if you distrust your ability to be objective in any sense of the word, then yes. not me though. i have tried lots of tweaks. sometimes i heard differences; other times i did not. so the above is your own personal problem.


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_snip

 Placebo is something that doesn't do anything, these products do and it can be heard._

 

Just to clarify, a placebo is something that has no supporting categorical evidence for its effectiveness, but actually serves its intended purpose (or part thereof) because the consumer believes that it will be effective.

 So, the placebo effect actually does do something. It convinces us that it works.

 Equally, there is the opposite effect where regardless of supporting evidence the consumer believes that the object or treatment will not be effective; and they are often proven correct - even with clinically proven medicines.

 The problem with the cable or other improvement argument is that if you believe, then you probably hear an improvement. However, if you disbelieve - rather than are open-minded, you won't hear a difference.

 The two opposing sides will never meet in the middle because they are on two different continuums.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fordgtlover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to clarify, a placebo is something that has no supported evidence for its effectiveness, but actually serves its intended purpose (or part thereof) because the consumer believes that it will be effective.

 So, the placebo effect actually does do something. It convinces us that it works.

 Equally there is the opposite effect where regardless of supporting evidence the consumer believes that the object or treatment will not be effective; and they are often proven correct - even with clinically proven medicines.

 The problem with the cable or other improvement argument is that if you believe, then you probably hear an improvement. However, if you disbelieve - rather than are open-minded, you won't hear a difference.

 The two opposing sides will never meet in the middle because they are on two different continuums._

 

That's why properly-conducted DBT's are so important, they remove pre-conceived notions, and the placebo effect.


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's why properly-conducted DBT's are so important, they remove pre-conceived notions, and the placebo effect._

 

Only if you want to prove something.

 Audio is about the enjoyment of music and the equipment. I have no particular problem with letting others believe in their tweaks, but to pick up on an important point by Bigshot, the real potential for damage here is when newbies expect night and day differences in their $500 system by buying $500 cables or wooden blocks.

 Newbies need to understand that these differences may be very, very subtle and may only be detected by those who have very good systems and are atuned to the nuances of their own system.

 A $500 system doesn't have nuances; it has a whole lot of room for upgrades. No, I am not bagging cheap systems (we've all had them). I am just suggesting that in a cheap system a source upgrade or speaker (or headphone) upgrade will yield significantly more improvement that wooden blocks or a new power cable.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fordgtlover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only if you want to prove something.

 Audio is about the enjoyment of music and the equipment. I have no particular problem with letting others believe in their tweaks, but to pick up on an important point by Bigshot, the real potential for damage here is when newbies expect night and day differences in their $500 system by buying $500 cables or wooden blocks.

 Newbies need to understand that these differences may be very, very subtle and may only be detected by those who have very good systems and are atuned to the nuances of their own system.

 A $500 system doesn't have nuances; it has a whole lot of room for upgrades. No, I am not bagging cheap systems (we've all had them). I am just suggesting that in a cheap system a source upgrade or speaker (or headphone) upgrade will yield significantly more improvement that wooden blocks or a new power cable._

 


 ok there bud.


----------



## gritzcolin

No one liked my idea of buying a board of the same stuff for $10 and making twice as many and saving yourselves $30+. Yeah I figured most of this stuff was because you want people to see that you can spend money on a name. Or are the circular saws they use to cut the wood made of magical carbide that infuses the wood with sound enhancing fairy dust. 

 I don't know if it works cause i have junk for audio equipment and use a 30 year old dresser as a stereo stand. But why get ripped off for an emblem burned into the wood that probably makes the wood less effective on a quantum level.

  Quote:


 A $500 system doesn't have nuances; it has a whole lot of room for upgrades. No, I am not bagging cheap systems (we've all had them). I am just suggesting that in a cheap system a source upgrade or speaker (or headphone) upgrade will yield significantly more improvement that wooden blocks or a new power cable. 
 

So you are saying expensive gear is built shoddily since it needs fancy wooden blocks to make it sound perfect? If I spend $4500 for a cd player that motor laser assembly better be suspended in a vacuum and not be suseptible to vibration when i walk around the room. OMG I THINK I JUST HAD A BRAZILLION DOLLAR IDEA WITH THAT! or even better nano tubes.


----------



## fordgtlover

... whoops


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Snip

 So you are saying expensive gear is built shoddily since it needs fancy wooden blocks to make it sound perfect? If I spend $4500 for a cd player that motor laser assembly better be suspended in a vacuum and not be suseptible to vibration when i walk around the room. OMG I THINK I JUST HAD A BRAZILLION DOLLAR IDEA WITH THAT! or even better nano tubes._

 

I'm not really sure what you're saying.

 The whole post provides context for the last paragraph. I am arguing that we should discourage the thinking in newbies that a $$$ tweak will improve a cheap system - cheap systems need upgrades to improve them.

 I have never said that I think anybody should buy 'fancy wooden blocks'.

  Quote:


 Audio is about the enjoyment of music and the equipment. *I have no particular problem with letting others believe in their tweaks*, but to pick up on an important point by Bigshot, the real potential for damage here is when newbies expect night and day differences in their $500 system by buying $500 cables or wooden blocks. 
 

My position on this issue is clear enough from my post without engaging in a slanging match with anybody.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fordgtlover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not really sure what you're saying.

 The whole post provides context for the last paragraph. I am arguing that we should discourage the thinking in newbies that a $$$ tweak will improve a cheap system - cheap systems need upgrades to improve them._

 

I am just saying that if I was to ever spend that much money I'd expect the price i and others paid to go into R&D on how to get the best that you can get out of the box. I see what you mean by upgrading but with the best gear you shouldn't need to tweak it to get it to it's absolute highest potential.

  Quote:


 I have never said that I think anybody should buy 'fancy wooden blocks'. 
 

I think we should call them Magical wooden blocks.


----------



## fordgtlover

^

 I think we are on the same page, just taking a different line.

 Unfortunately, it is possible that I have never had a system good enough to benefit from tweaks. I have a medium range amp, speakers and source. I still believe that I would be better spending my money saving for higher quality speakers.


----------



## vcoheda

i love how people debate endlessly the effectiveness or lack thereof of a tweak - but never actually try it.

 seems rather pointless to me.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i love how people debate endlessly the effectiveness or lack thereof of a tweak - but never actually try it.

 seems rather pointless to me._

 

As i stated before in this thread; people that don't actually tried the tweaks themselfs are not taken seriously by me. Some people are just arguing for the sake of arguing!

 Yes, there are worse and better fibration reduction systems out there.
 But to claim none of them work is rediculous, especially when you never tried one yourself!


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok there bud._

 

Depends on the fibration reduction system. As you can see in the link provided somewhere in this thread, some have more impact then others.

 Yes, i wouldn't spend much on fibration reduction if it is seen as an upgrade. Those things have always to be seen as final tweaks! If you're satisfied with the sound and think it could be a little better, then fibration reduction is your best bet. If you plan on getting significant better sound, get a new cdplayer!


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a great tweak for you! This increases the air around instruments, expands the soundstage and extends the frequency response beyond the range of hearing. All you have to do is strip down to your underwear and stand on your head in front of your speakers while they're playing. I don't know why it works- it just works! Don't knock it until you've tried it!


 And please post pictures.


 See ya
 Steve_

 

That is not actually putting something under the cdplayer to try to reduce fibration in the pickup system and is just another idiotic BigShot comment.

 If you don't have anyhting serious to contribute, why spend so much time in this thread?!

 Standing on your head will not gain any significant improvement on sound, not at any price, it is not proven it will make sound better, price is not relevant for this kind of standing on your head tweaks and is a waste of time and money! I bet standing on your head is inaudible!

 In this case also waste of time and server diskspace.

 Actually there was a university paper on fibration reduction in cd players and they concluded that fibration reduction was for 70% responcable of the sound.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_fibration reduction was for 70% responcable of the sound._

 

You know what? You are very silly. You're becoming serious competition for Patrick!

 See ya
 Steve

 P.S. I bet you're trying the "standing on the head tweak" right now!


----------



## gritzcolin

I have seen many tweaks for cd players. I used to place a towel underneath my old cd player. I have also seen one that involved a block of wood placed on top of the center of the player never did it though. I am not saying the wood blocks don't work I am just saying you can get them much much cheaper than every one is.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i love how people debate endlessly the effectiveness or lack thereof of a tweak - but never actually try it.

 seems rather pointless to me._

 


 Most people would prefer not to waste their money.

 BTW, wanna buy some pebbles in a jar?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most people would prefer not to waste their money.

 BTW, wanna buy some pebbles in a jar?_

 

If they remove vibration from my cdplayer, why not.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know what? You are very silly. You're becoming serious competition for Patrick!

 See ya
 Steve

 P.S. I bet you're trying the "standing on the head tweak" right now!_

 

The only one being silly is you. You ARE the patrick of sceptics!

 Instead of constantly making stupid remarks, i read technical papers. I know they are a bit to hard for you to understand....Maybe if you stand on your head.....

 By the way, the university paper was about vibration reduction in cdplayer laserpickup systems. NOT about woodblocks but i used it to make clear that vibration reduction in a cdplayer is very important.


----------



## jsaliga

What in blazes is fibration?

 --Jerome


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jsaliga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What in blazes is fibration?

 --Jerome_

 

Same as vibration only spelled incorrect.


----------



## bigshot

incorrectLY

 See ya
 Steve

 P.S. If vibration causes so many problems, why can you turn most CD players on their sides while they're playing without any error?


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i love how people debate endlessly the effectiveness or lack thereof of a tweak - but never actually try it.

 seems rather pointless to me._

 

Certainly from my perspective, most of these tweaks seem to cost far more than they appear to be worth. Whatever happened to the kind of tweaks that had the potential to make a difference, but cost almost nothing; tweaks like wrapping blue tack around your electrolytic capacitors, or screws, nuts and ballbearings for isolation feet, or slabs of offcut granite under your turntable (or perhaps amp) to minimise vibration.

 I for one don't want to spend $$$ on something that I am not convinced will make adifference to my audio experience.

 I try not to argue about whether these audiophile tweaks work or not.


----------



## Vangelis

I understand why people have had mixed results with the Cardas myrtlewood blocks. The large size Cardas blocks are the better size but the real problem is that there is simply no “one best variety” of wood for tuning audio components. 

 I first heard about tuning with wood from Charles Hansen, president of Ayre Acoustics. He told me to go to Toys R Us and buy a box of kids’ Jenga blocks. He said "maple sounds great under my amplifier” (at that time he only made amplifiers). I was skeptical to say the least, but hey, I had just discovered power cords several years earlier as a previous non-believer. When I slipped the three blocks under the amp I was very impressed with the improvements they made across the board (no pun intended) to the amp’s sound. Around the same time a friend phoned to tell me that another mutual friend had come over with a pile of wood blocks and spent the better part of a day using them to tune each component in his system. He was amazed with the results. The next week my system was tuned in the same fashion and from that time forward I’ve tuned my audio system with wood. The fellow that came over was Mike Van Evers who writes for Stereo Times. Mike explained that there is no single wood that is best for tuning because each piece of gear has it own resonence issues. 

 Most of the pieces of wood I use were cut to the “Golden Ratio” as discussed by George Cardas. There are a number of improvements I listen for when tuning for instance bass, detail, harmonic bloom and such, but most importantly do the musicians sound more in tune with each other, is the music line connected better, in other words is the gestalt or the whole of the musical message conveyed with a more emotional connection. All of us with an audio hobby have made changes to our systems that allowed us to hear music in a more meaningful way. Yup, tuning with wood will provide this type of result. 

 I could write volumes on this topic, instead I will offer a few essential tips: 
 1. Start by replacing all your shelves with at least 5/8 thick maple (not veneered) as the platform to start your tuning. Most lumber yards will cut the shelves. 
 2. Go to the hobbyist tweaky wood supply store to source scraps you can cut .
 3. Buy enough of each wood to make at least 6 blocks.
 4. Mix woods both above and below components.
 4. Three blocks work best under components 
 5. One or two blocks are best on tops of components
 6. A must do- Go to the Mike Vansevers web site page (see below) and read down the page where he details how to tune with wood as well as which woods affects what sonic parameters. Many of the wood varies are shown on his instruction page other than Pernambuco wood which is also a must. 
VansEvers - Support - Tweak 5


 Tuning with wood opens a whole new world to really improve your HiFi . WARNING: watch out if you share your wood tuning enthusiasm as you may committing audio blasphemy. Yes, you will be thrashed, scolded and accused of audio heresy bordering on sonic devil worship. A flood of postings will fly in from members who are compelled to race to their key boards just to tell you how wrong you are and that wood tuning is impossible. However, you might do your own evil laugh totally comfortable in the knowledge that your system has never sounded this good before wood tuning.. Hee…hee…hee. By the way, the naysayer members aren’t just unenlightened, in fact they just can’t help themselves, their bodies and minds have been possessed by the ghost of Julian Hirsch, repeating over & over…Amplifiers all sound the same, specs are specs, speaker wire and interconnects all the same, turntables no difference, better sounding power cords and power conditioners simply in the their imagination, and of course micro phonics and tuning with wood are surely audio Voodoo requiring an immediate exorcism for you and your system.


----------



## vcoheda

good link. thanks.


----------



## Uncle Erik

I tried this myself.

 Woodwork is another of my hobbies, and I've got cuts of a number of woods as scrap, as well as a variety of saws, planes, etc.

 So I took some rock maple, cut blocks to the golden ratio, then tested it under my turntable, CD player, preamp, and power amp.

 It made no difference at all. Absolutely nothing. They sounded just like they did before. There was no change in the sound.

 So I gave the blocks to my 3 year old nephew. He likes stacking them up and putting Hot Wheels on them. Since they enhance his toy car enjoyment, I guess they weren't a complete waste.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When they're just posting two or three letter high fives to each other, I think they've run out of gas. It isn't easy to defend severely overpriced blocks of wood with nautilus shell designs on them.

 If you need to put something under your cd player, find a couple of paperback books of similar thickness, or tape some soda bottle caps under the feet. It's always good to have adequate ventilation between components. Heat kills electronics. But you're fooling yourself if you think you hear a difference in your amp because of what you've put under it.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I'm with you here, there is no way in heaven, hell, or earth that these blocks will make any difference in the sound of any equipment (unless you have any problems due to overheating) aslo if Cardas keep on selling these stupid things, honestly they will loose my last bit of credibility, that right now is pretty lame in favor of their producs...

 Vibration control devices need to be made of soft material in order to absorb and dissipate the vibration, a solid block of wood will absorb nothing, or pretty much close to nothing...Aslo if they cost $5.00 that is OK, but at $45.00 for 4 blocks of wood, is in any sane person book, a horrible rip off. If you go to home depot you will get the same blocks for under $5.00, so they are charging 35.00 for the logos, good business, trust me than the more you buy from them this stupid things, the more useless things they will put into a market for the bunch of silly "snobophiles" to get them...

 Guys are you serious about that those blocks make a difference??? My God where have the sanity gone??? I'm really worried about you guys...


----------



## vcoheda

i try to be honest with myself about what i hear, because it's my system and more importantly my money that i spend to build and refine it. i really do think that a lot of tweaks work and some work quite well. that's been my experience.

 for those that hear no differences, i think a large part of it is that you tell yourself that there will be no differences, so there aren't any. of course this argument runs both ways. however, these group of people seem to be so fervent in their opinions and beliefs that i feel they more so than others lack the objectivity needed to make such discernments. that and their system may not be revealing enough.


----------



## Sovkiller

I believe that some tweaks can make a system sound better, and that is true, and I have seen some that really work...But what I do not consider is that 4 blocks of wood under my CD player will be a tweak at all, they will not even look nice there...there are others vibration absorbing devices, with a more "rational/scientific" approach, (that maybe will not do anything neither but at least will look better, this ones not even that)

Here in the Audioadvisor page you can find others that IMO offer at least a more scientific approach and that I do believe that will work or at least have more chances of working than this little brick of wood (even when they sell also these Cardas bricks...)

 For example the vibrapods are a lot cheaper, and are made of rubber and steel, more industrial materials, with some elaboration, and some research, the solid-tech disc of silence has some elaboration and had some research behind them, they are more expensive though, but a block of wood...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...man, gimme a break!!!

 Of course as you said you used your money, and if you feel fine spending it like that, that is your prerogative...But I will do my best to stop others from doing that, that is for sure...


----------



## vcoheda

so your mission in life to prevent people from spending $5.00 on a block of wood. i would think world hunger or peace - or pretty much anything - would be a better use of your time.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so your mission in life to prevent people from spending $5.00 on a block of wood. i would think world hunger or peace - or pretty much anything - would be a better use of your time._

 

Really? Well think twice about that, it is not $5.00, it is $45.00, that is 9 times that amount. 
 Now doing a quick math, those $45.00 could serve also to mitigate some of those problems we have nowdays in the world, (that you seem to be so worried about, given that you mentioned them) right? 
 Well FYI some of the charity organization we have here in US, and in the world in general sometimes only ask for a $5.00 donation to feed a kid in poor countries in Asia, Africa, or Latin America, or maybe to offer proper medical care to them, or maybe send it to the DAV (Disable American Veterans) if you want to keep the money home...So IMO this money could be easily used in offering 9 kids those services, but putting the money in wrong pockets, and spending some money in 4 stupid blocks of wood will not do any good to anybody not even to your system for much that you beleive they do...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Sorry but I do not see any benefit in wasting money like that, not even $5.00...


----------



## Uncle Erik

It is interesting to note that speaker designers, builders and manufacturers almost never use solid wood in their designs.

 Solid wood is remarkably uneven and inconsistent. It changes shape and size with the temperature and humidity and, internally, every piece is substantially different from another.

 This is why you don't find solid wood in speakers. Resonance and vibration substantially change the way a speaker sounds. Since solid wood is so inconsistent, they don't use it because each speaker would be slightly different. Instead, speaker makers mostly use MDF. Wilson and a few others use exotic materials, but never solid wood.

 Because wood is so inconsistent, how could blocks of it under a component change the sound? If it truly changes the sound because of vibrations, it would change the sound day by day, hour by hour. The specific gravity changes with the humidity. That will change the resonant value. If resonant value affects the sound, then the resulting sound would be wildly inconsistent.

 These blocks are snakeoil.

 Vcoheda, you miss the point. It's not about stopping someone from spending $5 on a chunk of wood. It's about critical thinking and not being sold a bill of goods by someone out to make a buck off the gullible. Why would you gulp the marketing of a corporation that wants nothing but profit? Do you think Cardas exists to make your life better or as a bearer of truth? No, Cardas is there to turn a buck. If they can sell nonsense at a profit, by god, they will.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Myrtle wood Bam just saved you tons of money now you can even have extra for the microwave._

 

I repeat this. OMG it really heats my food faster with these underneath and it adds to the oven baked taste. 

 Yet when I posted it no one cared. it's the same thing but cheaper much cheaper with a 1 foot board you could reduce vibration on most of your gear if that what you believe and still have an extra $30-$40 since you didnt pay for the Cardas name.


----------



## vcoheda

i still don't care.


----------



## Asr

I used to respect Ayre and Cardas but the more I read about them, the more it seems they exist more to sell hype rather than well-founded technology, and despite any differences you might be hearing with these Myrtle wood blocks, there's no science to support that the difference you hear should be better. There are architects and engineers who work day in day out to discover and build the best vibration isolation, shock absorption, etc, and the optimal shape of isolator feet is a cone or spike, not a block. No offense but you can believe what you want, there's no scientific evidence that these wood blocks are a good design at all, and personally I wouldn't waste $1 on them. If you want well-designed isolator feet, cones or spikes are much better.

 You have to be really ignorant to reject the decades (if not centuries) of science that's gone into researching the best shock absorption and anti-vibration isolation that tons of buildings today rely on in earthquake-centered geographic areas.

 And as Uncle Erik pointed out, solid wood is a terrible material to use for something intended for use as vibration isolation. It's _organic_, and if you expect organic material to stay in static condition in different humidities and temperatures you're dreaming.


----------



## vcoheda

i've read enough observational impressions about these blocks to make me believe that what i am hearing is true. that's enough for me. the cost of these blocks is so cheap compared to almost everything else in audio that everyone should try them for themselves. it's the kind of tweak that like most is noticeable on some components/configurations and less so on others - but after using them for a while and then removing them, the positive effects become apparent.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for those that hear no differences, i think a large part of it is that you tell yourself that there will be no differences, so there aren't any._

 

Do you think the reverse might possibly be true?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you think the reverse might possibly be true?

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 And what do you think we see here everyday with all those "tweaks", and especially while you spend some cash on them, of course you *have to* hear any improvement, otherwise people could think that you are an idiot...


----------



## vcoheda

just like you tell yourself everyday that the Ed.9s are worth $1000+


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just like you tell yourself everyday that the Ed.9s are worth $1000+ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well at least I bet you that I can get my $1,000.00 back any time, any day, just listing them here...and in less than 24 hours I will sell them, wanna bet??? Now try to sell those stupid blocks for the half of the price you paid, to see how many are willing to get them...

 Sorry but I'm not alone on the enjoyment the Edition 9 provide, see how many have gotten them before, and after, I got mine, and are still enjoying them, the are not a FOM headphones, they are very serious headphones, and sound very good. BTW it is not $1,000.00 they cost actually close to $1,500.00, and there are still many many happy owners that believe they are worth and had paid for them with no remorse...

 Now as a side note, I'm very happy with them, those made the most noticeable improvement that I have heard ever in audio, as you can expect while you replace headphones or speakers, those changes can be for good or bad, fortunately for me, this time was for good, in other occasions have been for bad...but the transducers always made the most noticeable changes in any audio chain, and I'm not alone on that, just ask around...

 Now it is curious on how you compare a transducer that usually are the most important part in any audio chain, and the part that make the most dramatic change, to some stupid blocks of wood, are you really serious??? 

 Even if they are not worth the price, you can find tons of guys that will like them, as preference is all about, I do not think that you can say the same about those wood blocks, and I do not think that you will find too many guys around that will believe that four blocks of wood will change anything in audio, unless the height of the gear you place on top, and of course the balance in your wallet...


----------



## vcoheda

relax.

 i'm just playing with you. but the blocks are so cheap. 3 blocks cost $15. in audio land, that is virtually free. buy one set and try them under every component you own. i bet they will make a pleasant difference under at least one of them.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_relax.

 i'm just playing with you. but the blocks are so cheap. 3 blocks cost $15. in audio land, that is virtually free. buy one set and try them under every component you own. i bet they will make a pleasant difference under at least one of them._

 

I'm not upset, where do you get that idea, it takes a lot more to upset me... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry but this time I think I would pass, for close to nothing that it could be, just think that $15.00 is the price of virtually any new CD, and I rather prefer to get the new CD instead of woodwork... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I could see other stuff that even while dubious to me, they may or not work, power cables, power conditiones, IC's, cones, piramids, spikes, wall treatments, fluids, etc....but these wood blocks are as close as snake oil as a tweak can be...


----------



## monolith

Even if you do believe that those things make a difference, what really bugs me is that you'd buy them from Cardas. It'd be cheaper and more efficient just to get a board of the stuff and cut it up into blocks. You could even cut it into shapes that actually have a chance of dissipating vibration while you're at it, combining the *mystical effects of myrtle wood* with *things that make sense*. 

 This isn't like other audio components where you're paying for research or labour costs or something. This is literally _only_ paying for a brand name. It's as bad as Nike charging $50 for a plain white t-shirt with a little swoosh over the breast. It boggles the mind.

 Hell, how do you know that myrtle wood is the best for dissipating vibration? I mean, we already have ample reason to believe it's specifically a bad material for doing that. Why not buy all kinds of exotic hardwoods and put them under your audio components. Don't know until you try, right? I have a feeling that your CD player would really benefit from some mahogany under the front left corner.

 The best part is that if someone vulnerable to such scams did that, they'd probably find a correlation between the improvement in sound and the rarity of the woods, or something to that effect.

 Another possible test is to take identical wood blocks emblazoned with the logos of a variety of different brands and see which one sounds better. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Nordost knows how to cut a block of wood better than Cardas does.


----------



## LawnGnome

People are far too willing to spend money on products from these companies. There is no way these companies don't know they are scamming people.


----------



## vcoheda

the blocks aren't a scam.

 It seems that just about everything has an impact on the sound you hear - racks, feet, shelves and other devices used in conjunction. to me it seems very logical that wood blocks in some way and just like other isolation/dampening devices impact the sound as well.


----------



## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the blocks aren't a scam.

 It seems that just about everything has an impact on the sound you hear - racks, feet, shelves and other devices used in conjunction. to me it seems very logical that wood blocks in some way and just like other isolation/dampening devices impact the sound as well._

 

Maybe so But the price tag on alot of this stuff is infact a scam.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe so But the price tag on alot of this stuff is infact a scam._

 

have you tried the cardas blocks?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_have you tried the cardas blocks?_

 

Let's say that someone does, and indeed they make a difference, does that fact make them worth $45.00 bux....??? Does the use of an electric saw, and engraving the logo make them cost that much? 

 As posted above here is the price of the wood, enough ot make a bunch of those blocks of that size...that fact alone regardless of what kind of difference they make or not, is in my book an scam...period...


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's say that someone does, and indeed they make a difference, does that fact make them worth $45.00 bux....??? Does the use of an electric saw, and engraving the logo make them cost that much? 

 As posted above here is the price of the wood, enough ot make a bunch of those blocks of that size...that fact alone regardless of what kind of difference they make or not, is in my book an scam...period... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

yes, but have you actually tried them (either by buying some myrtle wood and taking the time to make your own, or purchasing them from cardas)?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, but have you actually tried them (either by buying some myrtle wood and taking the time to make your own, or purchasing them from cardas)?_

 

See some posts above, at least one other member had, and he felt no effect at all in his systm...but even if 100 guys had, and love it, and the wood blocks make their system indeed sound a lot better, which part of the rip off pricewise fact that will change? An item that cost $2.00 to be made (and being conservative here) and is sold for $45.00 is a rip off regardless of the effect they produce, and regardless of how many people had tried it, and like it or not...

 I'm not saying that the block is a rip off because it will not change or will have not have any impact on the sound (even while I'm 100% sure it does not) I'm saying they are outrageously expensive for being just 4 blocks of wood...period...Now my question is: what part of that statement needs to be proved to you, do you believe that 4 blocks of wood cost $45.00?

 Sorry but I like the height my CD player is right now, and the day I do not like it, and want it to be higher, I promise you that I will not buy neither from Cardas, but will get some wood blocks in home depot....


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_See some posts above, at least one other member had, and he felt no effect at all in his systm...but even if 100 guys had, and love it, and the wood blocks make their system indeed sound a lot better, which part of the rip off pricewise fact that will change? An item that cost $2.00 to be made (and being conservative here) and is sold for $45.00 is a rip off regardless of the effect they produce, and regardless of how many people had tried it, and like it or not...

 I'm not saying that the block is a rip off because it will not change or will have not have any impact on the sound (even while I'm 100% sure it does not) I'm saying they are outrageously expensive for being just 4 blocks of wood...period...Now my question is: what part of that statement needs to be proved to you, do you believe that 4 blocks of wood cost $45.00?

 Sorry but I like the height my CD player is right now, and the day I do not like it, and want it to be higher, I promise you that I will not buy neither from Cardas, but will get some wood blocks in home depot....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 you seem to have a lot of opinions for someone who hasn't even tried the footers in question, or a facsimile thereof.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you seem to have a lot of opinions for someone who hasn't even tried the footers in question, or a facsimile thereof._

 

It is a logical fallacy to beleive that you must use a product to come to a reasonable conclusion on it.

 Quite stupid reasoning to be blunt.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you seem to have a lot of opinions for someone who hasn't even tried the footers in question, or a facsimile thereof._

 

You are wrong, I have only one opinion regarding the blooks, not a lot of opinions as you said, the blocks are a rip off period...


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is a logical fallacy to beleive that you must use a product to come to a reasonable conclusion on it.

 Quite stupid reasoning to be blunt._

 

logic? I was merely asking to ascertain his experience with a certain product.

 do you have any experience with wood footers?


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are wrong, I have only one opinion regarding the blooks, not a lot of opinions as you said, the blocks are a rip off period...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 





 so, your only input to this discussion are that the wooden blocks are overpriced?


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_logic? I was merely asking to ascertain his experience with a certain product.

 do you have any experience with wood footers?_

 

Do you understand what I said?


----------



## monolith

First off, all you need to do is think a little about this one. Hard wood doesnt absorb vibration, and block-shapes don't dissipate vibration into the things they're on (like spikes might).

 In any case, I'm highly disinclined to trust anyone's impressions after simple AB tests with something like this. Any improvement would be, at best, *incredibly* subtle, and the perfect opportunity for some blind tests.

 As I said before, I bet if Nordost started selling identical blocks for four times the price and with their brand name on them instead of Cardas, that people would compare the two and say the Nordost blocks win hands down. 

 Even *if* they improve sound, it's still a scam.


 So anyway, back to suggesting hilarious wood block isolation techniques. How about stacking them two or three layers high and then putting your components on top? It can only get better, right? Also, since they're not spike shaped (ie. they're not concerned with dissipating vibrations), why not just use a sheet of myrtle wood under your components? Imagine the number of Cardas logos they could fit on one of those babies.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so, your only input to this discussion are that the wooden blocks are overpriced?_

 

BTW Have you ever tried them?


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW Have you ever tried them? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

no. but why should that matter? it doesn't seem to make any difference for you to opine at length as to the inefficacy of a couple of wooden blocks.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you understand what I said?_

 

have you ever used Cardas Myrtle wood footers under any of your gear?


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no. but why should that matter? it doesn't seem to make any difference for you to opine at length as to the inefficacy of a couple of wooden blocks._

 

Hey, ho, a trolling you go.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no. but why should that matter? it doesn't seem to make any difference for you to opine at length as to the inefficacy of a couple of wooden blocks._

 

So is funny how you are assuming that others are wrong, even while you have not tried them, and even when it could be possible that after you try them by yourself, you could believe the same we do. 

 Now just to end this absurd dicussion, do you consider fair to pay $45.00 for four blocks of wood, is that a right price for you?


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey, ho, a trolling you go._

 

have you tried any footers under your gear?


----------



## tom hankins

I have used the Ayre blocks. (same thing as the Cardas) I was getting alot of woofer flutter through my turntable to my speakers.(subsonics freq. which cause your woofers to go crazy jumping around during vinyl playback) I placed one each on there backs under the cones that came with my turntable. and two under the table motor. Woofer flutter gone! So they do isolate good, better than the cones I got with my table. I have since gone to a 2 1/2" solid walnut slab under my table, and the blocks (thre each) under everything else on my rack. 
 Its funny to hear all the people on this thread that dont have even a bit of a clue as to wether this product can do anything or not, talk so much BS.
 Are they a ripoff? Well they were able to relieve the stress of $25K amplifiers from having to work more than they should. (it takes power for for the woofers to be moved around and try to produce that subsonic bass) For a total cost of 18 bucks! I would rank them more in the great deal than ripoff group. 
 BTW: woofer flutter is real! You can see and touch it! its there, or its not. Without the Blocks it was.....with them it was not. 
 Wether the rest of my gear is better for using them I cant say for sure. But I do know they are at the very least knocking out some of the frequencies that were coming through my table. For a total of 9 bucks per componant.


----------



## dvw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have used the Ayre blocks. (same thing as the Cardas) I was getting alot of woofer flutter through my turntable to my speakers.(subsonics freq. which cause your woofers to go crazy jumping around during vinyl playback) I placed one each on there backs under the cones that came with my turntable. and two under the table motor. Woofer flutter gone! So they do isolate good, better than the cones I got with my table. I have since gone to a 2 1/2" solid walnut slab under my table, and the blocks (thre each) under everything else on my rack. 
 Its funny to hear all the people on this thread that dont have even a bit of a clue as to wether this product can do anything or not, talk so much BS.
 Are they a ripoff? Well they were able to relieve the stress of $25K amplifiers from having to work more than they should. (it takes power for for the woofers to be moved around and try to produce that subsonic bass) For a total cost of 18 bucks! I would rank them more in the great deal than ripoff group. 
 BTW: woofer flutter is real! You can see and touch it! its there, or its not. Without the Blocks it was.....with them it was not. 
 Wether the rest of my gear is better for using them I cant say for sure. But I do know they are at the very least knocking out some of the frequencies that were coming through my table. For a total of 9 bucks per componant._

 

What you are experiencing is rumble. This is a well known issue. Most of the time it originated from the vinyl itself because of slightly off center center hole or warp of the album. Sometime you can also hear a pitch change because of this. Most phono preamp has a subsonic filter built in. 

 I am not sure how the wood block solves this problem. Probably the feedback from the speaker exaggerated the problem. But you should experiement with isolating your speakers as well. I have spikes on all my speakers. But most importantly you'll need to add a subsonic filter. Wood block is not going to eliminate the problem totally. BTW a record clamp will also help.


----------



## tom hankins

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dvw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What you are experiencing is rumble. This is a well known issue. Most of the time it originated from the vinyl itself because of slightly off center center hole or warp of the album. Sometime you can also hear a pitch change because of this. Most phono preamp has a subsonic filter built in. 

 I am not sure how the wood block solves this problem. Probably the feedback from the speaker exaggerated the problem. But you should experiement with isolating your speakers as well. I have spikes on all my speakers. But most importantly you'll need to add a subsonic filter. Wood block is not going to eliminate the problem totally. BTW a record clamp will also help._

 


 I have had vinyl in my system most of the time over 37 years. This isnt my first issue with this problem. I HATE to use the filter in my phonostage.(or any phonstage) It will effect the sound. (this comes from experience, the builder of the phono, and where I bought the phonostage) Some of the subsonic sound is picked up through the vinyl itself. however when i talked to either VPI, Sim Audio, and Music Driect (about having to use the filter) they all suggested using some sort of isolation first and see if it would help. (no one mentioned anything as cheap as the blocks though...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Hmmmmm) I did, it worked. 
 I also use the VPI center weight and ring clamp that came with the VPI SuperScoutmaster table I have. I have also added the Super Platter. I know warped albums are the worst. 
 I also have my Thiel CS7.2 speakers spiked to concrete floors. 
 My point on the blocks is they will help in isolation. I have seen this with my own eyes.
 What I cant believe about this thread (in general) is that almost every one of the doubters has never even seen the product(let alone used one) and are all saying its a ripoff. They worked for me, and I dont see why they cant work for others. In my system they were a super cheap fix.


----------



## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I cant believe about this thread (in general) is that almost every one of the doubters has never even seen the product(let alone used one) and are all saying its a ripoff. They worked for me, and I dont see why they cant work for others. In my system they were a super cheap fix._

 

to actually withhold comment until you have actually tried the product in question. that sounds too reasonable. we can't have that.


----------



## tom hankins

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_to actually withhold comment until you have actually tried the product in question. that sounds too reasonable. we can't have that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL

 I have tried to keep the value of other peoples opinions about anything audio in two groups.

 VALID OPINIONS:
 1. Have owned the product
 2. Have done home audition with the product
 3. Have heard the product in a system they are familiar with

 INVALID OPINIONS
 1. Any numbskull that doesn't fit in the top three groups.


----------



## vcoheda

those are good rules. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 if the majority of people followed them, there might actually be intelligent discussion on this board, or at least more of it.


----------



## monolith

On the other hand, this time using some reason:

 Trustworthy opinions:

 1. Has tested the effectiveness of the product with a blind test.

 Untrustworthy opinions:

 1. Hasn't tested the product with a blind test.
 2. Has been involved in any way with selling the product.


 In any case, even if they improve your sound monumentally, they're still a waste of money for the reasons that have been given. Unless, as goes back to my point before, the Cardas logo adds to the sound. My opinion is that a Nordost logo on the block would really tighten up the bass.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On the other hand, this time using some reason:

 Trustworthy opinions:

 1. Has tested the effectiveness of the product with a blind test.

 Untrustworthy opinions:

 1. Hasn't tested the product with a blind test.
 2. Has been involved in any way with selling the product.


 In any case, even if they improve your sound monumentally, they're still a waste of money for the reasons that have been given. Unless, as goes back to my point before, the Cardas logo adds to the sound. My opinion is that a Nordost logo on the block would really tighten up the bass._

 

Have you "blind tested" any of the gear you own?


----------



## tom hankins

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On the other hand, this time using some reason:

 Trustworthy opinions:

 1. Has tested the effectiveness of the product with a blind test.

 Untrustworthy opinions:

 1. Hasn't tested the product with a blind test.
 2. Has been involved in any way with selling the product.


 In any case, even if they improve your sound monumentally, they're still a waste of money for the reasons that have been given. Unless, as goes back to my point before, the Cardas logo adds to the sound. My opinion is that a Nordost logo on the block would really tighten up the bass._

 


 You have know idea what your talking about. you dont need a blind test to know when your woofers are jumping around from subsonic frequencies in the signal of your vinyl playback. (Mine are traced almost 100% to lack of isolation from the rack itself). All you have to do is look at them. have you ever even owned a vinyl system? If you did you would not be making a fool of yourself about wether or not the blocks work at isolating a product. I tried them. They worked. If they didnt the woofers would still be jumping around. 
 Before they were all over the place with any album I used. Now I only get a little if I have an album that is warped bad. 
 Blind test to see if the woofer flutter has gone down or not when the blocks are used VS. not used????? You cant even hear the SUBSONIC FREQ. The point of using the blocks was so my amp and speakers would stop trying to reproduce the sound. ( and working harder than they need) You need to do your homework before you make comments like this. I never said the bass tightened up or anything like that. I said the blocks worked for me. That they gave isolation to my table from subsonic frequencies that were reaching my speakers.

 The more you post the more I realize you have zero idea what your talking about, let alone what the purpose of the blocks are for. ISOLATION!!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have tried to keep the value of other peoples opinions about anything audio in two groups._

 

Me too... Those who understand the basic principles of how sound reproduction works, and those who take the salesman's word for it.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you "blind tested" any of the gear you own?_

 

Yup.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have know idea what your talking about. you dont need a blind test to know when your woofers are jumping around from subsonic frequencies in the signal of your vinyl playback. (Mine are traced almost 100% to lack of isolation from the rack itself). All you have to do is look at them. have you ever even owned a vinyl system? If you did you would not be making a fool of yourself about wether or not the blocks work at isolating a product. I tried them. They worked. If they didnt the woofers would still be jumping around. 
 Before they were all over the place with any album I used. Now I only get a little if I have an album that is warped bad. 
 Blind test to see if the woofer flutter has gone down or not when the blocks are used VS. not used????? You cant even hear the SUBSONIC FREQ. The point of using the blocks was so my amp and speakers would stop trying to reproduce the sound. ( and working harder than they need) You need to do your homework before you make comments like this. I never said the bass tightened up or anything like that. I said the blocks worked for me. That they gave isolation to my table from subsonic frequencies that were reaching my speakers.

 The more you post the more I realize you have zero idea what your talking about, let alone what the purpose of the blocks are for. ISOLATION!!_

 

Lowering your gaze an inch or two will show you that I have indeed owned a vinyl system.

 Anyway, my comments were general ones about the effectiveness of things, especially tweaks. Obviously I'm also not going to hope people try to blind test headphones, as that's impossible. Also, blind testing tells you if things sound different, not if they move differently. Short of being a little distracting, it wouldn't matter if my subwoofer was doing somersaults if front of me if it didn't affect the sound they were putting out.

 So have you tried anything else? Seems like a vibration problem could also be solved by something that actually absorbs vibrations, like soft pencil erasers or half tennis balls or something. Our physics department uses half tennis balls under experimental apparatuses that are sensetive to vibrations many orders of magnitude finer than anything you'll experience in audio. These things are sensetive to being looked at the wrong way, and the department has all the money in the world to spend on hard woods and brass spikes.

 I'll also thank you not to patronise me. I'd like to think that years of studying physics at least clued me in to what "subsonic" means.


----------



## tom hankins

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup.



 Lowering your gaze an inch or two will show you that I have indeed owned a vinyl system.

 Anyway, my comments were general ones about the effectiveness of things, especially tweaks. Obviously I'm also not going to hope people try to blind test headphones, as that's impossible. Also, blind testing tells you if things sound different, not if they move differently. Short of being a little distracting, it wouldn't matter if my subwoofer was doing somersaults if front of me if it didn't affect the sound they were putting out.

 So have you tried anything else? Seems like a vibration problem could also be solved by something that actually absorbs vibrations, like soft pencil erasers or half tennis balls or something. Our physics department uses half tennis balls under experimental apparatuses that are sensetive to vibrations many orders of magnitude finer than anything you'll experience in audio. These things are sensetive to being looked at the wrong way, and the department has all the money in the world to spend on hard woods and brass spikes.

 I'll also thank you not to patronise me. I'd like to think that years of studying physics at least clued me in to what "subsonic" means._

 

Hmmmmmmm...But I thought you were saying that the blocks could not help any kind of vibration problems.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I also have used hockey pucks, racket balls and other things for vibration control. I agree they work. These Ayre blocks worked too. its that simple. they got rid of a problem by isolating my table. I never said you cant make or find something cheaper. I said they worked for me. Anyway this thread is about the blocks not homemade vibration control.
 what they did is get rid of a problem I had in my system. You can try and spin your lack of knowledge about the woofer problems associated with vinyl playback all you want. But for me they worked. get over it. I dont see why its problem.
 Does it really bother all the people that have been declaring these things VooDoo (even though they have not one single bit of evidence to support it) I have the evidence that they will isolate gear. In my system they did so by tuning out the subsonic frequencies from getting through to my speakers. the test to see, was as simple as opening my eyes. 
 I think its irresponsible for you and others to maintain they cant possibly be good for anything when you have never tried them in any way, shape, or form. I hope other readers of this thread will be able to see through your lack of knowledge on this product. Have a great night. i am going to spin some vinyl on my vibration and woofer flutter free system. Glad I'm me and not you.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup._

 

so, that's n=1.

 if you're talented enough at "science", then please explain to me how statistically significant your "blind test" results were. Did you perform a T test to check your sample size? how many standard deviations? or better yet, do you have documentation of the test? or was it more of a hobbyist's exploit?


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hope other readers of this thread will be able to see through your lack of knowledge on this product. Have a great night. i am going to spin some vinyl on my vibration and woofer flutter free system. Glad I'm me and not you.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I hope the readers of this thread don't read what you or others say and go buy expensive wood blocks to fix audible problems they might have.

 I wholeheartedly share that last sentiment. Being you seems to be quite tiresome.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so, that's n=1.

 if you're talented enough at "science", then please explain to me how statistically significant your "blind test" results were. Did you perform a T test to check your sample size? how many standard deviations? or better yet, do you have documentation of the test? or was it more of a hobbyist's exploit?_

 

They were significant enough to justify the decision I made from them, which was admittedly a minor one. I was testing to see if it was worth using the lineout of my iPod into a headphone amp over the headphone out of the iPod alone. Using random tracks from my iPod and volume settings matched by my ears, I was blindfolded to my satisfaction and a friend conducted an ABX. For 15 songs I was right 12 times, two of the three misses being very low quality recordings (one badly recorded live concert, one badly recorded black metal).

 I didn't bother repeating the experiment many times to get a normal distribution out of it or anything. It was just a casual thing to see if I was wasting my time or not, and a spur of the moment idea between classes. If I bought a much more expensive amp and I had to justify the expense over the one I currently own, or if carrying an amp around was a big bother for me, I might do that. I have a second iPod LOD coming, this time made of cryo copper. I'd be interested to test it against my current one made of Canare Starquad, though I'm already pretty confident what the result would be.

 Love the big scary science words though. You musta done read some thick books.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Tom, what kind of phono preamp do you use? Almost all of them use a high pass filter to cut out subsonic frequencies. Those are well known to cause problems for woofers. If you are still experiencing problems, you can build a high pass filter for under $5, more if you want boutique parts.

 Also, one cause of rumble is the bearing. They do wear out eventually and are an easy fix. You can usually find them at reasonable prices, too.

 And again, I tried golden ratio blocks to no effect. Even if there were subsonic vibrations, they were caught by the subsonic filter, which my phono stage has. Respectfully, I think a high pass filter is the most appropriate solution to subsonic problems. It directly fixes the problem. Anything else is driving screws with a hammer.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tom hankins* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the evidence that they will isolate gear. In my system they did so by tuning out the subsonic frequencies from getting through to my speakers._

 

Damping the feet of a turntable isn't going to "tune out subsonic frequencies from reaching the speakers", it's the exact opposite. Isolating a turntable prevents vibration from the speakers from reaching the turntable. It's called acoustic feedback. And acoustic feedback isn't "subsonic". It's perfectly audible.

 As the previous poster said, a tennis ball cut in half would do a MUCH better job of it than a wooden block. A folded up beach towel, as long as the platter is level and it doesn't cover the vents, would be better still.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## yotacowboy

monolith;3472082They were significant enough to justify the decision I made from them said:
			
		

> sorry, but the big scary science words are simple statistics terms. from a statistical standpoint, you did little (actually nothing) in terms of showing that there is any validity to your test. Your findings, though admirable, have absolutely no (zero) statistical significance due to your miniscule sample size, no repeatability, and flawed experimental design - and therefore have no relevance to a population (actually, any population). sorry, but your claims of "blind testing" are "scientifically" unfounded, and by applying your own rules, your opinions have absolutely no relevance here. this is simple Statistics 101.
> 
> You've been pretty adamant about your position that, unless "blind tested," any differences between audio components are simply subjective. Well, I hate to break it to you, but you've essentially fallen into simple subjective (not objective) conclusions due to the fact that your findings (with regards to any of your gear) have no significance to any group of people. please, don't muddy the clear waters of valid science with your attempts at pseudo-scientific exploits masquerading as some sort of "rule". you're only making yourself out to be someone with a lot of steadfast (and often misinformed) opinions, and little actual experience. It's a good idea not to bring up ABX or double blind, or simple blind experiments unless you actually have some actual experience conducting them and analyzing the results. Hence, the sticky at the top of this forum.
> 
> pot, meet kettle.


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry, but the big scary science words are simple statistics terms. from a statistical standpoint, you did little (actually nothing) in terms of showing that there is any validity to your test. Your findings, though admirable, have absolutely no (zero) statistical significance due to your miniscule sample size, no repeatability, and flawed experimental design - and therefore have no relevance to a population (actually, any population). sorry, but your claims of "blind testing" are "scientifically" unfounded, and by applying your own rules, your opinions have absolutely no relevance here. this is simple Statistics 101.

 You've been pretty adamant about your position that, unless "blind tested," any differences between audio components are simply subjective. Well, I hate to break it to you, but you've essentially fallen into simple subjective (not objective) conclusions due to the fact that your findings (with regards to any of your gear) have no significance to any group of people. please, don't muddy the clear waters of valid science with your attempts at pseudo-scientific exploits masquerading as some sort of "rule". you're only making yourself out to be someone with a lot of steadfast (and often misinformed) opinions, and little actual experience. It's a good idea not to bring up ABX or double blind, or simple blind experiments unless you actually have some actual experience conducting them and analyzing the results. Hence, the sticky at the top of this forum.

 pot, meet kettle._

 

My findings have significance to me, because that's what I was testing for. As I said, if I wanted or was willing to come to a conclusion applicable to a population, I'd happily conduct many more tests each with many more runs and analyze it properly, not to mention designing it more rigorously. I spent hours analyzing statistics in the lab before which I did my test. What I did, while simple, is certainly a lot better than most do when deciding what gear to use. I'd be overwhelmingly pleased if most posters could claim about their tweaks and gear what I can about mine, let alone if they could do better (ie. more statistically significant). It showed me that I wasn't wasting my time or space in my bag having that little amp with me. 

 As for the more important part of your post, me running a small test and not obtaining results applicable to a larger population has nothing to do with me saying such tests (like mine or more rigorous) are worthwhile. Never having conducted a blind test doesn't make one unqualified to say that blind tests are worthwhile. My opinions that blind tests are worthwhile and should be done is steadfast because it's correct.


----------



## vcoheda

soon, all this nonsense will be over.


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_soon, all this nonsense will be over._

 

Ah yes. The segregation forum is coming along nicely. Soon they'll have separate water fountains and baseball leagues for objectivists and "subjectivists".


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry, but the big scary science words are simple statistics terms. from a statistical standpoint, you did little (actually nothing) in terms of showing that there is any validity to your test. Your findings, though admirable, have absolutely no (zero) statistical significance due to your miniscule sample size, no repeatability, and flawed experimental design - and therefore have no relevance to a population (actually, any population). sorry, but your claims of "blind testing" are "scientifically" unfounded, and by applying your own rules, your opinions have absolutely no relevance here. this is simple Statistics 101.

 You've been pretty adamant about your position that, unless "blind tested," any differences between audio components are simply subjective. Well, I hate to break it to you, but you've essentially fallen into simple subjective (not objective) conclusions due to the fact that your findings (with regards to any of your gear) have no significance to any group of people. please, don't muddy the clear waters of valid science with your attempts at pseudo-scientific exploits masquerading as some sort of "rule". you're only making yourself out to be someone with a lot of steadfast (and often misinformed) opinions, and little actual experience. It's a good idea not to bring up ABX or double blind, or simple blind experiments unless you actually have some actual experience conducting them and analyzing the results. Hence, the sticky at the top of this forum.

 pot, meet kettle._

 

We all have heard those same arguments before, time after time...So my next question is: Would you mind to propose *then* any valid methodology for an acceptable DBT for the believers? 

 Since I joined Head-fi, a few years ago, the believers never had accepted any methodology, for any blind test, I have heard off proposed by the skeptics, of course in all cases I have heard off, they have failed miserably (and no, I will not bother in trying to post the experiments, or trying to find them, if you want, do a search here and they will pop up) and the only thing they ask is for a *truly scientific and statistically valid test*, well now is your turn, provide one that will satisfy both fields, I think that the skeptics will have no objection in accepting any gladly, at the end we do not need to prove anything, is you who had to prove that those differences exist, and if you are really able to identify them....


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_soon, all this nonsense will be over._

 

The discussion probably will be over that is true, OTOH the nonsense will be just confined to one forum...


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My opinions that blind tests are worthwhile and should be done is steadfast because it's correct._

 


 ha!!!! prove it!!! prove to me you are without a doubt 100% correct. you screwed around between classes, with no level matching, and now I and anyone else around here is supposed to believe that you are "correct" and that your specific amp is "better" than another? Or any piece of audio gear MUST be "blind tested" by your half-assed standards to warrant any credibility? scientifically!!! you're hilarious. dude, seriously. just stop posting... lol.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We all have heard those same arguments before, time after time...So my next question is: Would you mind to propose *then* any valid methodology for an acceptable DBT for the believers? 

 Since I joined Head-fi, a few years ago, the believers never had accepted any methodology, for any blind test, I have heard off proposed by the skeptics, of course in all cases I have heard off, they have failed miserably (and no, I will not bother in trying to post the experiments, or trying to find them, if you want, do a search here and they will pop up) and the only thing they ask is for a *truly scientific and statistically valid test*, well now is your turn, provide one that will satisfy both fields, I think that the skeptics will have no objection in accepting any gladly, at the end we do not need to prove anything, is you who had to prove that those differences exist, and if you are really able to identify them....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 seriously? i think my time is better spent enjoying my rig. it's about the music, right? You guys are hilarious...

 oh, and remind me to never buy anything from rudistor... i'm just following the rules of trustworthiness... lol...


----------



## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The discussion probably will be over that is true, OTOH the nonsense will be just confined to one forum... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

well one of the groups is clearly insane.


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ha!!!! prove it!!! prove to me you are without a doubt 100% correct. you screwed around between classes, with no level matching, and now I and anyone else around here is supposed to believe that you are "correct" and that your specific amp is "better" than another? Or any piece of audio gear MUST be "blind tested" by your half-assed standards to warrant any credibility? scientifically!!! you're hilarious. dude, seriously. just stop posting... lol._

 

I level matched to where I couldn't tell the difference in volume. I never said or tried to figure out if my amp was better than other amps.

 I encourage you to reread my last post. It's worded pretty clearly with respect to the standard to which I hold what I did. I'm not sure I used the word "scientific" anywhere. Nothing has to be tested my standard. It'd be nice if stuff was tested the way I did or better, since what I did is a lot more than what most do. 

 Anyway, why would I have to prove that blind tests are worthwhile? Do you know what they are? You seem to be a worse troll than most.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_seriously? i think my time is better spent enjoying my rig. it's about the music, right? You guys are hilarious...

 oh, and remind me to never buy anything from rudistor... i'm just following the rules of trustworthiness... lol..._

 

Then again, judging by this you might be illiterate. If he had said that you should buy a Rudistor product his opinion might be questionable, sure.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well one of the groups is clearly insane. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I wonder if it's the group who believes in magic wood and wish granting cables.


----------



## colonelkernel8

You know what guise? Since you have had so much success with these awesome pieces of Cardas wood in tightening up the bass and clearing up the mids and highs in your gear, I just ordered 5 full sets for my system!!!!!11


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I level matched to where I couldn't tell the difference in volume._

 

Unless you put a zero'd DMM on the outputs while playing pink or white noise, you didn't "level match" a damn thing. You've successfully used a subjective method in your after-school-special, "Fisher-Price: My First Single-Blind Experiment". No repeatability, no rigor, you've accomplished nothing beyond proving my point... your opinions about "blind testing" are misinformed.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nothing has to be tested my standard. It'd be nice if stuff was tested the way I did or better, since what I did is a lot more than what most do._

 

What you did is the EXACT THING WHICH YOU ARGUE AGAINST. You preformed a SUBJECTIVE test of the affect of an amp. Don't kid yourself, there is absolutely nothing objective about your methods and standards for "blind testing".

 I wonder what George Cardas has to say about some little wooden blocks, "blind testing" and the effects of certain types of wood in electro-mechanical systems... 3/4's of the way down the page.

Cardas Audio

 Oops!!! I almost forgot... he's UNTRUSTWORTHY, it's a RULE!!! He's a fraud!! He's a witch!!!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, why would I have to prove that blind tests are worthwhile? Do you know what they are?_

 

Well, I've been told that a blind test is when you screw around between classes, without level matching, with a couple of low-resolution/compressed audio files, to see if amps make a difference. Otherwise (in the real world...) they are an experimental design which intends to remove participant bias (or the bias of the experimenter, or the statistician, or all three). Unfortunately, in your case, "removing bias" seems to be nearly impossible.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You seem to be a worse troll than most._

 

Now, now, son... no name-calling. I'm sorry, if by "troll" you mean someone who:

 a) *might* have more experience in human factors experiments and statistics than you

 b) is tired of your pointless and misinformed drivel

 c) is open minded enough to think that in our complex natural world, there may be phenomena that I don't fully understand, but may still experience without being "blind tested"


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_judging by this you might be illiterate_

 

Yup, you got me. I'm illiterate.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you mind to propose *then* any valid methodology for an acceptable DBT for the believers?_

 

Here's one of the textbooks I've found useful, if you're inclined to do a little reading:

Amazon.com: A Practical Guide to Usability Testing: Books: Joseph S. Dumas,Janice C. Redish

 The nicest thing about this book is that it provides step by step guides for conducting valid usability experiments, creating and using mXn matrices for experimental design, both objective and subjective analysis, and is not limited to somewhat esoteric single, double and triple blind experiments. Enjoy!


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## bigshot

Are there any online resources you'd recommend?

 See ya
 Steve


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## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are there any online resources you'd recommend?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Haven't really looked, but this text (along with Amazon.com: Human Factors In Engineering and Design: Books: Mark S Sanders,Ernest J McCormick ) are pretty common undergraduate level ISE textbooks. You might be able to find them at the library.


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## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unless you put a zero'd DMM on the outputs while playing pink or white noise, you didn't "level match" a damn thing. You've successfully used a subjective method in your after-school-special, "Fisher-Price: My First Single-Blind Experiment". No repeatability, no rigor, you've accomplished nothing beyond proving my point... your opinions about "blind testing" are misinformed._

 

I level matched to where I couldn't tell the difference in volume, and I did do it with pink noise. Could I have done it more precisely? Obviously.

 My opinions about blind testing aren't misinformed. The way I carried one out was unrigorous. If people did what I did (or better, ideally), I'd be happier than if they did nothing.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What you did is the EXACT THING WHICH YOU ARGUE AGAINST. You preformed a SUBJECTIVE test of the affect of an amp. Don't kid yourself, there is absolutely nothing objective about your methods and standards for "blind testing".

 I wonder what George Cardas has to say about some little wooden blocks, "blind testing" and the effects of certain types of wood in electro-mechanical systems... 3/4's of the way down the page.

Cardas Audio

 Oops!!! I almost forgot... he's UNTRUSTWORTHY, it's a RULE!!! He's a fraud!! He's a witch!!!_

 

Q: Hey, have you ever blind tested your cables?
 A: Yeah there was this one time where we did. It was totally double blind. No really.

 Of course he's untrustworthy. He's turning a profit that might depend on the answer to that question.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I've been told that a blind test is when you screw around between classes, without level matching, with a couple of low-resolution/compressed audio files, to see if amps make a difference. Otherwise (in the real world...) they are an experimental design which intends to remove participant bias (or the bias of the experimenter, or the statistician, or all three). Unfortunately, in your case, "removing bias" seems to be nearly impossible._

 

Some files were high bitrate mp3s, some lossless. If they're the same for both the A and the B it doesn't matter anyway. Lossless should just make it easier. The design removed enough bias to where I was satisfied. You can certainly fault statistical significance and inexact level matching. Oh, and yes, I should have said that I only believe blind tests apply to seeing if amps make a difference. Nothing else can be blind tested, and no blind tests can be carried out at times other than between E/M theory and advanced physics lab. I also wholeheartedly believe that no blind test in which levels have been matched is valid.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now, now, son... no name-calling. I'm sorry, if by "troll" you mean someone who:

 a) *might* have more experience in human factors experiments and statistics than you

 b) is tired of your pointless and misinformed drivel

 c) is open minded enough to think that in our complex natural world, there may be phenomena that I don't fully understand, but may still experience without being "blind tested"_

 

a) You probably do.
 b) None of that here. Dodged a bullet on that one.
 c) I share this view.


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## UseName

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fordgtlover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to clarify, a placebo is something that has no supporting categorical evidence for its effectiveness, but actually serves its intended purpose (or part thereof) because the consumer believes that it will be effective.

 So, the placebo effect actually does do something. It convinces us that it works.

 Equally, there is the opposite effect where regardless of supporting evidence the consumer believes that the object or treatment will not be effective; and they are often proven correct - even with clinically proven medicines.

 The problem with the cable or other improvement argument is that if you believe, then you probably hear an improvement. However, if you disbelieve - rather than are open-minded, you won't hear a difference.

 The two opposing sides will never meet in the middle because they are on two different continuums._

 

OR they will meet when DBT are encouranged and conducted. This is how clinically proven medicines get proven in the first place. 

 It's not like these tests are expensive either. They can be time consuming but certainly no more time consuming than reviewing 22 power cables.


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## Uncle Erik

Yotacowboy, I'll take your word that you are experienced with testing. What kind of tests would you suggest, rather that DBT?

 There is value even in failed tests. You can rule things out and use that to develop new tests. Science is not about throwing your hands up and saying that something exists but that it's just too much trouble to figure out why it does. Shift your focus from yes/no to why/how. If you're certain that wood blocks and cables make noticeable and surprisingly similar differences with every piece of gear (no matter how it is constructed or the components it uses), then use your considerable skills, education and training to figure out why it is happening and how it works. That's all we ask.

 The point of science is to understand what is. If you hear differences with wood blocks and cables, aren't you the least bit curious how that works? Don't you want to know more? I find amps very interesting, so I've picked up a lot of books and really enjoy building them. When I find something mysterious, I figure out what's going on. Why not the same with cables? Why not learn how they work?


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