# Explain to me the importance of a quality power cable (if any)



## wakeride74

I've been hunting around and reading various amp reviews and have noticed a couple comments on upgraded power cables. Now I understand and have heard the advantage in upgraded IC's but I'm a bit lost on the power thing. Would anyone care to comment on this? Is there a value in picking up something like the K|A|S Primus?


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## trains are bad

My humble informed opinion:

 There is no point to using anything other than normal, copper wire. Lowe's extension cord would be fine. All the power cable does is conduct the electricity from the romex wire running through the wall to the power suppy of the amp. Note that this is 'only' based on knowledge of physics and electronics. I'm sure lots of people will show up to discuss how power cables really do make a difference in sound, which I never have doubted. Placebo effect is very real.


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## Melchior

You'll prolly get a few different replies for this. I am of the opinion that with a properly designed power supply, the only factors needed in a good power cable are shielding, and wire gauge adequate to the current draw. You can get such cables for under 20 dollars in lengths appropriate to most systems.


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## coolshot

well imo it all depends on where you're getting your source of power. Ok i live at home and my parents house is under 5 yrs old. Our lines are new and clean and i think the transfer is pretty new its a new sub division built all at the same time. My friend lives with his gf in a mobile home in the next city over. Its a run down nieghborhood 30+yrs and i think the mobile home (not a trailor with wheels, the double wide i think its called)

 ok im my house i hear no buzzing and power anomilies what so ever. However, in his house, i soon as a plug in, i hear buzzing. It really sucks sound wise to try to listen to something while hes got a cheap walmart lamp plugged in on the same circuit as my rig. It sounds like im outside near a powerstation in the summer. Its that bad. So i think conditioning will only help relative on how clean your power is from the start. The cleaner it the less filtering you need, just like water.


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## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolshot* 
_The cleaner it the less filtering you need, just like water._

 


 The ultimate audiophile power tweak...solar panels?


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## roadtonowhere08

I have seen my fusebox. No fancy power cable is going to make up for the fact that it looks like crud. I also know that the wire inside the walls is nothing special either. Let's not get started with the power grid, and so on and so forth. A nice 12-14ga power cable is more than enough. If placebo could be bottled...


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## markl

That KAS is a nice cable, I've owned one. But I like the Black Sand Violet better (and it's cheaper).


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## bigshot

Anything that costs more than $5 is a total waste of money. I would be suspect of anyone who recommended an expensive power cable to me. Even assuming they mean well, it shows a lack of understanding of simple physics that might indicate that they don't know what they're talking about in other areas as well.

 See ya
 Steve


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## PhilS

The replacment of power cables in my system substantially reduced some sibilance I was experiencing. Power cables may indeed make a difference in your system. It may be worthwhile to give it some of the offerings a try, especially if you can do so on 30-day or 60-day return, in which case you really may have nothing to lose. As for the categorical statements to the effect that they make no difference and nobody should ever spend more than $X for a power cable, some people who make such statements have no experience with the product. Others seem to have no purpose in life or on this forum other than to troll for these types of threads and make dogmatic statments about what something is worth to others. Ignore it and make up your own mind.


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## Patrick82

$3k Nordost Valhalla power cord is great, I use it for everything. Amp, CD player, DAC, power conditioners, computer, projector, LCD monitor, you name it!

 It didn't make a big difference for my video gear though, but I love it for audio!!





 Acer AL1914




















 [size=xx-large]*Videos*[/size]

*Computer:* http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/f...08.01).DivX.avi

*Projector:* http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/f...09.06).DivX.avi


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## Black Stuart

Hi Bigshot,
 some will listen, some won't. As I plan to build an alt/energy home I thought that as I will not be connected to any mains grid - end of problem but I've been assured by pros who know on another forum, that, even using a pure sine wave converter I will never get absolutely 'pure' juice. Certainly using solar/wind/water produced 'juice' will make a huge difference.

 Filters - I made some and though they can make a real difference for video etc. I just found they 'muddied' the sound so removed them. 

 I do think that well designed PSUs WILL make a difference and that is where money can be usefully spent.

 Stuart


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## markl

Quote:


 I would be suspect of anyone who recommended an expensive power cable to me. Even assuming they mean well, it shows a lack of understanding of simple physics that might indicate that they don't know what they're talking about in other areas as well. 
 

 I'd be suspect of anyone with an opinion on anything he's never heard. It;s the First Rule of Head-Fi. You risk looking like this:

 "Grados suck!" 

 "Oh yeah, which models have you heard?" 

 "Erm, none, but I mean they're so *ugly* and I don't like the people who like them, they have Kooties...."


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## Solude

Power cords absolutely do make a difference. Call it shielding, geometry, materials whatever it is... I'm just glad the cord I settled on is cheap ~$5 14AWG shielded and readily available.

 Other quite a bit more expensive cords also made a difference just not all positive in my rig so the $350+ was hard to swallow. But they did make a difference.

 For filtering, less is best. I like the Monster 1000 series for no nonsense minimalist filtering and isolation. Anything more and it chokes the gear. What I'd really like is a power bar like the Hammond or PS Audio without filtering but with surge protection. No one seems to make that. You want surge you get filtering, no filtering well no surge.

 Touching base on a few other claims... Romex is actually very fine power cable. If you cut open some audiophile retardly difficult to flex cable you'll find Romex in a new dielectric. Actually one of the more effective DIY cords is a Romex braid.

 For the physics and electrical gurus in house, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're likely bachelors of X and not PhDs active in the field of conductor development. Might be wrong but generally the my textbook says types are students which makes them at best someone with the potential to know more than the jist of it someday. Today though, all you know is the bare bones minimum they tell you so that the world makes sense


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## threEchelon

I'd go for a volex 17604. It's like what's in your walls, 14AWG wire.


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## hembergler

Without power conditioning, I don't see how a power cord can make a difference. There are hundreds of miles of plain copper wire in your house and suspended between telephone poles. Changing the last 3' of that wire to something more expensive is not going to do anything.

 Now, if you do have a power conditioner, I can see a power cord making a very, very, slight difference due to the guage of the wire and the shielding. Whether it is audible is up for debate.


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## some young guy

power cables can make a huge difference in a system. the better the resolution of your system, the more you'll hear. i've spent hours listening to different a/c cables in my set-up, with and without a conditioner and in my personal experience, they defenately make a difference. it's not always a good difference mind you... but after actually hearing a couple dozen cables for myself, that's my opinion.


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hembergler* 
_Without power conditioning, I don't see how a power cord can make a difference. There are hundreds of miles of plain copper wire in your house and suspended between telephone poles. Changing the last 3' of that wire to something more expensive is not going to do anything.

 Now, if you do have a power conditioner, I can see a power cord making a very, very, slight difference due to the guage of the wire and the shielding. Whether it is audible is up for debate._

 

I thought power cords didn't matter without power conditioning until I tried for myself. 


*xStream Statement* has shielding and background was much blacker with it, but music was very slow. 

*Valhalla* had background noise but sounded MUCH faster with almost the same body as Statement.

*Vishnu* sounded thinner with even more background noise, the fatter Valhalla hides detail and gives colored dynamics, I have modded it and 1 conductor Valhalla sounds more transparent than Vishnu (1 conductor), because of *Dual* Micro Mono-Filaments instead of Single. But I only compared using a Power Plant.

*Stock* cable sounded very harsh, edgy and fatiguing. Nordost cables sounded VERY smooth and had the same detail as stock. Statement had worst detail of all, but also the blackest background because of filtering.


 Using an Ultimate Outlet makes the background a little blacker. Using a Power Plant gives a MUCH blacker background, and further demagnetizing the system improves it even more. Nordost cables are a match made in heaven with a Power Plant!


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## Aman

*Notice:* Do not take a word that Patrick82 says with more than a grain of salt. He makes ridiculous claims advocating for extremely expensive products, with absolutely no factual claim, stance, or backup. When he "objectively" listens to thousand-dollar cables, he simply MAKES UP sound characteristics. He has no basis to his ideas. He believes prodcts such as the Mighty Pebbles, a $100 "tweak" which you place on top of your audio gear, that supposedly makes the system sound much better, makes a huge difference. I remember a thread where he didn't like the sound of his system, so instead of doing away with the parts which may have made his system sound worse (how could it sound bad? look at his system's specs!), he just got rid of his music and bought new CDs that sounded "better". This guy is the pinnacle of audiophiles who only love the equipment, and not the music. I have never seen a single post by him in the Music section of these forums. I am not saying that cables of any kind don't make a difference, but this guy is not the one to trust if you want a valid reason why they do. 

 Do not take this the wrong way, man, but I would consider you 'mentally ill' if I didn't know any better. Your opinions are dangerous, as they lead people to spending ridiculous amounts of money on useless crap.


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## Sleestack

The mind is capable of just about anything, so if you have the money to burn, by all means go and buy some expensive power cords and let your perceptions direct you to sonic bliss. I bought dozens of $100 power cords from Cobalt, but my reasons were purely aesthetic. On the other hand, if you are on a budget, I highly advise you to spend your money elsewhere first. Furthermore, if you are hearing huge sonic differences between power cords I'd make sure to check the power supplies in your gear or your power source and make sure you don't have any issues.


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## roadtonowhere08

Do you people realize that for the price of these much vaunted Nordost power cables, I could buy four (4) Klipsch RF-83 speakers which are my dream speakers. Now, does anyone want to guess which is a better value?

 There is a point where this hobby turns into a sickness, and unfortunately some do not know this. All of this talk about cables that are more expensive than most headphones, really kinda sickens me. There is nothing healthy about these discussions.

 Patrick82: you seem like a very nice person, but seriously, do you really believe everything you say or does Nordost not have a return policy?

 What happened to enjoying the music?


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aman* 
_*Notice:* Do not take a word that Patrick82 says with more than a grain of salt. He makes ridiculous claims advocating for extremely expensive products, with absolutely no factual claim, stance, or backup. When he "objectively" listens to thousand-dollar cables, he simply MAKES UP sound characteristics. He has no basis to his ideas. He believes prodcts such as the Mighty Pebbles, a $100 "tweak" which you place on top of your audio gear, that supposedly makes the system sound much better, makes a huge difference. I remember a thread where he didn't like the sound of his system, so instead of doing away with the parts which may have made his system sound worse (how could it sound bad? look at his system's specs!), he just got rid of his music and bought new CDs that sounded "better". This guy is the pinnacle of audiophiles who only love the equipment, and not the music. I have never seen a single post by him in the Music section of these forums. I am not saying that cables of any kind don't make a difference, but this guy is not the one to trust if you want a valid reason why they do. 

 Do not take this the wrong way, man, but I would consider you 'mentally ill' if I didn't know any better. Your opinions are dangerous, as they lead people to spending ridiculous amounts of money on useless crap._

 

1) I can't make up anything, I just listen to how it sounds like.

 2) *Brilliant* Pebbles ($79), didn't make a "huge" difference, it was the opposite. It wasn't worth the $30 I paid for it. http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196008

 3) I haven't got rid of my music and bought new ones. I have stopped listening to Reference classical HDCD recordings because they have bad layering compared to mixed recordings.
 For a couple weeks I didn't like my trance albums because I heard clicks and pops sometimes, but then I got used to it.

 4) I have made a few posts in the music section a year ago. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Buying all those albums was a mistake, I could have bought cable sooner.


 I don't care if everyone says I'm wrong, it happens in *every* hobby I do, but it eventually gets proven I was right.

 Why not try for yourself before you buy?


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_Do you people realize that for the price of these much vaunted Nordost power cables, I could buy four (4) Klipsch RF-83 speakers which are my dream speakers. Now, does anyone want to guess which is a better value?_

 

I take Valhalla any day.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_There is a point where this hobby turns into a sickness, and unfortunately some do not know this. All of this talk about cables that are more expensive than most headphones, really kinda sickens me. There is nothing healthy about these discussions.

 Patrick82: you seem like a very nice person, but seriously, do you really believe everything you say or does Nordost not have a return policy?_

 

I'm still a skeptic even though my impressions have been consistent after 18 months. If you become a believer you quickly become delusional and take the improvements for granted. Ever wonder why old "golden eared" audiophiles fail blind tests? Because eventually they get sick and tired of being skeptics and then they just let go of all their doubts and start enjoying the ride instead. It's perfectly normal!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_What happened to enjoying the music?_

 

I can't enjoy music if I don't hear it properly.


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## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_ I take Valhalla any day._

 

I knew you'd say that. There is not a cable on earth that I would choose over those speakers... unless they did my taxes.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I'm still a skeptic even though my impressions have been consistent after 18 months. If you become a believer you quickly become delusional and take the improvements for granted. Ever wonder why old "golden eared" audiophiles fail blind tests? Because eventually they get sick and tired of being skeptics and then they just let go of all their doubts and start enjoying the ride instead. It's perfectly normal!_

 

They fail blind tests, because they can't tell the difference. That should make them even more skeptical, yes? Perhaps they just give into the hype, justify the cost, and become their own hype machines. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I can't enjoy music if I don't hear it properly._

 

Then you should be only using Mogami


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## Thaddy

Wow Patrick, if your room isn't a fire hazard, then I don't know _what_ is.


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thaddy* 
_Wow Patrick, if your room isn't a fire hazard, then I don't know what is._

 

Formula 1 driver driving 100 mph in city street is safer than old woman driving 20 mph.


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_They fail blind tests, because they can't tell the difference. That should make them even more skeptical, yes? Perhaps they just give into the hype, justify the cost, and become their own hype machines._

 

That's what I said. They start looking at the cables and only *remember* the differences between each cable instead of *hear* them. That's why they don't hear a real difference anymore. But that doesn't mean they didn't a hear a difference many years before that.


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## Thaddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Formula 1 driver driving 100 mph in city street is safer than old woman driving 20 mph._

 

Because, yeah...you know what you're talking about.


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## peelax

Headfi is dangerous 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm not sure why people who say power cables make a difference get slated more than people who say, for instance, op-amp rolling makes a difference. 

 Seemingly, there are a lot of purely subjective opinions around here that just get accepted as fact after a while - I would like to consider myself a logical man but then I have still paid extra money for better caps, op-amps, psus etc. In my heart of hearts I really don't think I could ever hope to hear the difference these modifications make, but yet I still enjoy this hobby and spending the money is part of it, and to some extent I "think" I can tell the difference. Also it is always cool to have a new toy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would, in fact, say that patriks expression of hifi fetishism is no more ridiculous than someone who spends thousands on amps, dacs etc etc etc, constantly seeking something that arguably does not exist. 

 The fact that he peruses his passion at the expense of feeding himself is rather more worrying though.

 The reason headfi is so bad is when you read 100 people all saying this is better than that you eventually believe it (it just so happens that because there is really such little non-subjective evidence that power cables make a difference they seem to have fallen out of favor?), it is human nature, and in some way this is what drives the hobby, at least for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray


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## hYdrociTy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hembergler* 
_Without power conditioning, I don't see how a power cord can make a difference. There are hundreds of miles of plain copper wire in your house and suspended between telephone poles. Changing the last 3' of that wire to something more expensive is not going to do anything.

 Now, if you do have a power conditioner, I can see a power cord making a very, very, slight difference due to the guage of the wire and the shielding. Whether it is audible is up for debate._

 


 Exactly! There might be more coloration by plugging some 2guage different metal wire into a copper 14~whatever awg thats standard for homes...
 Maybe some people prefer the coloration?

 What I picture in my mind is that :
 Home Current----> Power cable---> power supply of amp----->audio stuff

 With a $3000 cable it will be like this:
 Ugly-------------> Pretty--------> Ugly-----(componets)----> sound

 With a 5 dollar decently constructed cable:
 Ugly-------------> Ugly----------> Ugly-----(componets)----> sound

 No matter what you replace the cable with, eventually it will all come out as the same exact crap your power supply pumps out to the rest of the components... I can see if you compare 14awg cable vs a 40guage corroded wire but all those "advanced silver litz strand" bull is nonsense..

 I can justify spending 5000USD on one of those Power Regenerators, but not thousands on a cable..IMO Id rather have a 5 dollar cable and a 200 buck ac->batt->ac buck power conditioner than some elite hunk of wire...

 Oh and BTW this is coming from a cable enthusiast too. Interconnect and headphone DO make a teeny difference albeit for ME its just cosmetic and fun/cute thing....


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## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_
 I can't enjoy music if I don't hear it properly._

 

Whether or not costly power cables make a difference and with apologies to Patrick, everyone should take note: *the quoted statement is the defining symptom of audiophilia crossing the line into obsessive illness.* It is one thing to enjoy music and seek to make it better and more enjoyable. It is quite another not to enjoy music unless a stringent ritual is observed and/or objects, which therby qualify as fetishes, are not involved.


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## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *peelax* 
_Headfi is dangerous 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm not sure why people who say power cables make a difference get slated more than people who say, for instance, op-amp rolling makes a difference. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray_

 

It isn't necessarily different, but when you have an uninformed member on a budget seeking advice on power cables, and you have pepole advising him that a $1K power cable is going to make the difference, I think certain members feel an obligation to save the member and his wallet.

 Even though I buy very high priced gear, I'm always very careful to make
 sure people understand that in addition to aural preferences, my choices stem from aesthetic concerns and a healthy amount of disposable income. It's fun to dabble in the world of audiophilia, but when giving advice I try keep things in perspective.


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## peelax

Yer I totally agree, I don't think I gave the best example!


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## gmoffatt

No one is going to drop $3000 on a power cable just because they read Patrick's post showing an improvement of 1150 on a scale of 1 to 10. I enjoy reading about his impressions of various room temperatures and brilliant pebbles, etc. Keep up the good work, sir.


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## peelax

But it might lead them to believe there is a superb price/improvement ratio and drop a lot considering their budget.


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## peelax

However with regards to the original post, I think you should get someone to build you a cable, you know you are getting reasonable value for money, and from the DIY cable thread some of them look _really_ nice.


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## some young guy

it never ceases to amaze me how hot this topic is. no matter what forum it is, it always seems to be the most polarized arguement. if you like to play around with a/c cables, you're a deaf fool who imagines he can hear things that aren't there... i don't understand why some folks get so worked up about it. just because you explain it with an ee degree, doesn't mean it's all phyco-acoustics. i can remember when the same arguements were being made about interconnects too.


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## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hYdrociTy* 
_No matter what you replace the cable with, eventually it will all come out as the same exact crap your power supply pumps out to the rest of the components... I can see if you compare 14awg cable vs a 40guage corroded wire but all those "advanced silver litz strand" bull is nonsense..

 I can justify spending 5000USD on one of those Power Regenerators, but not thousands on a cable..IMO Id rather have a 5 dollar cable and a 200 buck ac->batt->ac buck power conditioner than some elite hunk of wire...

 Oh and BTW this is coming from a cable enthusiast too. Interconnect and headphone DO make a teeny difference albeit for ME its just cosmetic and fun/cute thing...._

 

 Ok, so you say interrconnects and headphone cables can make a difference. Presumably, it is because you think you hear a difference. In my house with my system, however, I would say that the upgrades in power cables that I made (the cables were not $3000 cables but $150 cables) made a bigger difference than the interconnects, based on what I heard. I could see some skeptic saying no cables of any type make a difference, all amps sound the same, blah, blah, blah, but I think it is somewhat inconsistent for someone to say that interconnects can make a difference but power cords cannot.


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## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_They fail blind tests, because they can't tell the difference. That should make them even more skeptical, yes? Perhaps they just give into the hype, justify the cost, and become their own hype machines. 
_

 

 This is a DBT-free forum.


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## Black Stuart

Listen on my old forum, there are plenty who are going to shell out for slate plinths for their Garrards and Lenco TTs. Will they make a difference yes but how much - these plinths sell from £275($500) - £1200($2180) and I believe there is another company that makes these plinths seem very cheap.

 These plinths are beautifully made, no doubt about that but for £1200, I could put together a damn good s/hand vinyl based system COMPLETE.

 OK, they could spend the money on nose candy/ fast women or turn into alcoholics spending on outrageously expensive wine. 

 I believe in live and let live, if some of us see a benefit in buying what many see as snake oil let them. I do accept totally what some posters have said about peer group pressure - I demand value for money/bang for bucks - that's my take on it.

 Stuart


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## slwiser

Just a point of order: Just how does "it" power all those components?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_$3k Nordost Valhalla power cord is great, I use it for everything. Amp, CD player, DAC, power conditioners, computer, projector, LCD monitor, you name it!

 It didn't make a big difference for my video gear though, but I love it for audio!!_


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## hYdrociTy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* 
_Just a point of order: Just how does "it" power all those components?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

im sure he has one for every electronic item he has.
 Think 3000 dollar power cable on his acer LCD is over the top? Try using such godly cables to power a toaster.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Impressions: WOW!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so crispy and subtle signature of charred flavoring! Not at all subdued at the edge! Butter has never melted so smoothly as now, from such even heat!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ! For years I have auditioned only the finest breads, and yet I felt something was missing..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now I know what it is. The pico-volt spikes that came through from my last toaster cable (a budget 800 dollar 12awg OFC) created uneven distribution of thermodynamic energy, resulting in channel imbalance of the two bread slots! One would come out perfect, and the other would be charred at the middle?!?!?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But ALAS The Valhalla smooths out such sparkling display of electrical insability and as a bonus increased the palatestage so much! Tastes not at all tinny, but as if I were at the middle chair an actual kitchen table!!!!


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## BrianS

i get highly irritated with people who have not tried different power cords and yet say they make no difference because of "science"...

 how do you know you dislike asparagus if you've never tried it?

 maybe patrick's cables make a great difference but i do agree components should come first and cables last.


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## slwiser

Given what he has said about them I thought maybe he had tapped into a magic cord that could do duty for any component needed at the same time with a single cord. 

 I do think the concept of magic plays out here in some manner, maybe slight of hand or some misdirection.

 From what I am reading about these cords and ICs he uses they could make any Bose sound like..........................................a Dac sound like a R10, an amp sound like a CD, etc....duck look like a dog.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 One more thing....his concepts defies the law of diminishing returns in many ways from what I am seeing.

 Yea, I know I just made a host of people mad. So hit me.....it hurtssssss badddd...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hYdrociTy* 
_im sure he has one for every electronic item he has.
 Think 3000 dollar power cable on his acer LCD is over the top? Try using such godly cables to power a toaster.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Impressions: WOW!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so crispy and subtle signature of charred flavoring! Not at all subdued at the edge! Butter has never melted so smoothly as now, from such even heat!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ! For years I have auditioned only the finest breads, and yet I felt something was missing..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now I know what it is. The pico-volt spikes that came through from my last toaster cable (a budget 800 dollar 12awg OFC) created uneven distribution of thermodynamic energy, resulting in channel imbalance of the two bread slots! One would come out perfect, and the other would be charred at the middle?!?!?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But ALAS The Valhalla smooths out such sparkling display of electrical insability and as a bonus increased the palatestage so much! Tastes not at all tinny, but as if I were at the middle chair an actual kitchen table!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


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## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_This is a DBT-free forum._

 

I don't believe I ever suggested having one, as having one would be futile. There are those who listen to music, and there are those that listen to their gear.


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## ooheadsoo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BrianS* 
_how do you know you dislike asparagus if you've never tried it?_

 

How do you know you shouldn't use asparagus inside your power cords if you've never tried it?


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## slwiser

Sounds almost like everything else I have heard lately from this discussion. It is the magic I was talking about.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ooheadsoo* 
_How do you know you shouldn't use asparagus inside your power cords if you've never tried it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* 
_Just a point of order: Just how does "it" power all those components?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have cut my Valhallas to shorter lenghts and use 1 for each. 

 Anyone with a Benchmark DAC1 should buy Valhalla power cord for it, I wasn't sure before, but now I am after reading this: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/benchmark.htm
 If DAC1 + Valhalla doesn't make a skeptic a believer, nothing does!


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## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I have cut my Valhallas to shorter lenghts and use 1 for each. 

 Anyone with a Benchmark DAC1 should buy Valhalla power cord for it, I wasn't sure before, but now I am after reading this: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/benchmark.htm
 If DAC1 + Valhalla doesn't make a skeptic a believer, nothing does!_

 

I did a word search on that article, and "Valhalla" did not show up; however, "snake oil" did throughout.

 You are really not helping your case. 

 If you want to blow all your money, go ahead. You are, however, showing a very large lack of responsibility by suggesting something that no normal person would buy.


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## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_I don't believe I ever suggested having one, as having one would be futile._

 

No, you suggested that there have been some and that people "fail[ed]" them, which is a discussion which basically violates the intent of a "DBT-free forum." No big deal; you weren't flagrant about it or anything. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_There are those who listen to music, and there are those that listen to their gear._

 

 Actually there are three categories: those who listen to their music and don't care much about their gear, those who listen to their gear and don't care much about their music, and those who have discovered what should be fairly obvious, i.e., that high quality gear can make music much more enjoyable. I submit that the vast majority of regular participants on Head-Fi are in this latter category. For some reason, however, people like to pretend that many or most who have high quality systems or that are constantly tweaking their systems don't care about the music. It's a ridiculous notion, one without any basis in fact from what I have observed, and it appears in some circles to almost amount to some sort of prejudice. It's all rather strange to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't understand why people constantly have to criticize others by implication whenever these types of threads come up.


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_Actually there are three categories: those who listen to their music and don't care much about their gear, those who listen to their gear and don't care much about their music, and those who have discovered what should be fairly obvious, i.e., that high quality gear can make music much more enjoyable. I submit that the vast majority of regular participants on Head-Fi are in this latter category. For some reason, however, people like to pretend that many or most who have high quality systems or that are constantly tweaking their systems don't care about the music. It's a ridiculous notion, one without any basis in fact from what I have observed, and it appears in some circles to almost amount to some sort of prejudice. It's all rather strange to me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't understand why people constantly have to criticize others by implication whenever these types of threads come up._

 

There are only so many hours in the day. If one spands all that time switching out cables or tweaking their system, they are NOT listening to their music. And to me, that is what this hobby is all about.

 Now, I agree with you, that high quality stuff does make music sound better, but high quality does not have to have a high price (especially three thousand friggin dollars for a cable). I will never go to the extreme that some on this forum will go, yet I will bet them their entire system that I enjoy the music coming out of my speakers just as much as they enjoy the music coming out of their speakers. Yes, that is subjective, but while they write subjective reviews filled with subjective words and comments, I will be here enjoying my music.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_There are only so many hours in the day. If one spands all that time switching out cables or tweaking their system, they are NOT listening to their music. And to me, that is what this hobby is all about._

 

 I believe that power cords and interconnects make an audible difference. I have swithced out several interconnects and power cords before finding the right combination for me. I would estimte the total time involved was less than 10 yours over a period of three years. I expect my experience is not atypical in terms of the amount of time that is consumed with changing out cables.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_Now, I agree with you, that high quality stuff does make music sound better, but high quality does not have to have a high price (especially three thousand friggin dollars for a cable)._

 

I can't defend a $3,000 cable. My attitude is if people want that, that's up to them. But it's not for me either.  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_ . . . yet I will bet them their entire system that I enjoy the music coming out of my speakers just as much as they enjoy the music coming out of their speakers._

 

 I don't know how to compare levels of enjoyment between different people, but it seems to me the issue is not whether you enjoy your music as much as they enjoy their music, the issue is whether they enjoy their music as much as they did before the tweak or whatever, which is something only they can determine.


----------



## Aman

Quote:


 I don't care if everyone says I'm wrong, it happens in every *hobby* I do, but it eventually gets proven I was right. 
 

The astonishing thing about this phrase is that you can actually consider what you do a 'hobby' - buying really expensive, useless items and listening to your tiny music library with it. This is no hobby. If you had any real appreciation for music, then listening to music with an active intellectual and musical sense would be considered a 'hobby' (for most, music is merely a pastime). However, I know that you don't have any appreciation for music:

  Quote:


 I have made a few posts in the music section a year ago. Buying all those albums was a mistake, I could have bought cable sooner. 
 

This is just outrageous. This is just absurd. Are you for real? You're no music fan - you're just a cable fetishist!


----------



## Aman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *some young guy* 
_it never ceases to amaze me how hot this topic is. no matter what forum it is, it always seems to be the most polarized arguement. if you like to play around with a/c cables, you're a deaf fool who imagines he can hear things that aren't there... i don't understand why some folks get so worked up about it. just because you explain it with an ee degree, doesn't mean it's all phyco-acoustics. i can remember when the same arguements were being made about interconnects too._

 

I'm not saying it's wrong to be a "believer". I am not going to weigh in on whether or not they make a difference. In my uninformed youth, I purchased a set of DiMarzio interconnects that seemed to widen the soundstage and clear up the mid-bass muddiness of my stereo rig, but it wasn't anything near substantial - it was a minor 2%-5% difference at most. I honestly, however, do not have an opinion as to whether or not cables make a difference. The only thing I am commenting on is the absurdity of Patrick82 and his dangerous influence he has on this community. He can potentially scare away any half-intelligent human being from Head-Fi, or drive any newbie half-insane.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_I did a word search on that article, and "Valhalla" did not show up; however, "snake oil" did throughout.

 You are really not helping your case. 

 If you want to blow all your money, go ahead. You are, however, showing a very large lack of responsibility by suggesting something that no normal person would buy._

 

Ok, so skeptics search around for certain words instead of looking at the big picture. Now it all makes sense.

 That reviewer used $5500 cables and DAC1 was almost as good as CD player costing 20 times more. Which is a bigger bang for your buck?

 The future is $975 DAC, $800 ICEpower amp, $300 computer transport, and $20 000 worth of cables! And no, it's not a joke.


----------



## Thaddy

Patrick, you've clearly gone off the deep end...


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thaddy* 
_Patrick, you've clearly gone off the deep end..._

 

I go as deep as possible to find the Truth! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The problem is most don't have enough resolution in their gear for cables to matter. If you go to the extreme high-end then cables are ALL THAT MATTERS. I'm saying that you don't need to spend 1 million on equipment until cables become the weakness, does that make me crazy? Would I be less crazy if I owned $500 000 source and amp (with all the bells and whistles) with $20 000 cables? No, that would make me more crazy because I would get worse sound for more money.


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I go as deep as possible to find the Truth! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The problem is most don't have enough resolution in their gear for cables to matter. If you go to the extreme high-end then cables are ALL THAT MATTERS. I'm saying that you don't need to spend 1 million on equipment until cables become the weakness, does that make me crazy? Would I be less crazy if I owned $500 000 source and amp (with all the bells and whistles) with $20 000 cables? No, that would make me more crazy because I would get worse sound for more money._

 

Last I checked, cables do not make a sound, speakers do. Cables are the LEAST important thing in the chain, as evidenced by the fact that NO creator of music uses any of this esoteric cable garbage to create their music. Most use balanced Mogami cables from the source/DAC to the amps. And I would be willing to bet that most of them would laugh you out of their studio if you suggested they use anything other than a good 12/14 ga power cable. What you are doing is merely changing the sound, you are NOT making the music more faithful. If all you said from the get-go was "I like the way these cables make my music sound", I'm sure you'd have nobody objecting. But when you make it sound like they are the second coming of Christ, you are bound to have people that do not believe you, and with good reason.

 The future of music replication does not even include DACs; they will be obsolete once digital amps become a more mature technology. Bet on it.


----------



## Nospam

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_...The future is $975 DAC, $800 ICEpower amp, $300 computer transport, and $20 000 worth of cables! And no, it's not a joke._

 

OMG, I love that line! It sounds so insane, it's classic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Patrick82, if anything, your posts are always enjoyable to read.


----------



## HumanMedia

Powercords make an audible difference and the difference is more audible in more resolving systems. With my simplistic BSc understanding I used to deny that they could make any difference. Tried swapping a few stock cords, still no difference. After 6 years of denial I tried some different high gauge and shielded cables - noticable difference!

 Science is all about creating theories which model the observable behaviour, not the other way around. If people pull their heads out of the sand they will find there is a difference and if they look a little further there is much science to explain such differences.

 And people should lay off Patrick. It is people like him who go against commonly held beliefs to actually try different things and are the ones who make real discoveries. Despite jumping to expensive conclusions sometimes, it is he who holds the spirit of science and experimentation alive.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_Last I checked, cables do not make a sound, speakers do. Cables are the LEAST important thing in the chain, as evidenced by the fact that NO creator of music uses any of this esoteric cable garbage to create their music. Most use balanced Mogami cables from the source/DAC to the amps. And I would be willing to bet that most of them would laugh you out of their studio if you suggested they use anything other than a good 12/14 ga power cable. What you are doing is merely changing the sound, you are NOT making the music more faithful. If all you said from the get-go was "I like the way these cables make my music sound", I'm sure you'd have nobody objecting. But when you make it sound like they are the second coming of Christ, you are bound to have people that do not believe you, and with good reason.

 The future of music replication does not even include DACs; they will be obsolete once digital amps become a more mature technology. Bet on it._

 

Ok, so stock cables that are infected with RFI/EMI don't change the sound?


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Ok, so stock cables that are infected with RFI/EMI don't change the sound?_

 

You do realize that many quality $10 cables are heavily shielded, right?

 BUT

 You cannot have it both ways. According to the "audiophile gospel", shielded cables and/or ferrite rings reduce dynamics. Unshielded cables suffer from RFI/EMI. On which side of the fence do yours sit?

 HumanMedia: there is nothing scientific about what Patrick82 is doing. He has no spirit or science. See science deals with numbers and facts not words like "airiness" and link to nonsense with devices called Quantum Physics Noise Disruptors. Now, granted he is being very polite in defending his position, I will give him that. It is appreciated.


----------



## c0mfortably_numb

I don't see anything wrong with buying a "decent" power cord, but I don't think I would spend hundreds of dollars on one. I personally use and recommend the "Iron Lung Jelly Fish" they used to be on sale for $19.99, but they have gone up to $29.99. Still a respectable price, for a well insulated 14 gauge cord.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_You do realize that many quality $10 cables are heavily shielded, right?

 BUT

 You cannot have it both ways. According to the "audiophile gospel", shielded cables and/or ferrite rings reduce dynamics. Unshielded cables suffer from RFI/EMI. On which side of the fence do yours sit?_

 

Yes. But not as heavily shielded as PS Audio cables. With xStream Statement power cable all the subtle details are gone even if the background is blacker, but some people like that coloration, I'm not one of them.

 I want it both. Nordost made the Valhalla fatter than neutral to give it a blacker background and colored dynamics. I have modded them into the correct size and there are no weaknesses. My modded interconnect went up to 1 million on my 1-10 scale.

 Everyone has problems in their system so Nordost had to make the sound fatter than normal, otherwise nobody would buy their cables! But even when comparing the unmodded Valhalla power cord against a stock cable it sounds more neutral. The detail is the same as stock cord but it's MUCH smoother. The fatter Valhalla also makes the background much blacker because it hides detail, the blackness also gives the illusion of greater dynamics.
 When I made it thinner it gave much more detail than stock, and it's still smooth as silk. I believe it's the polished conductor surface and low dielectric that makes it sound that smooth.

 Cheap cable without shielding = Harsh, noisy background, emphasized detail, not realistic.
 Stock Valhalla = Smoother, blacker, same detail, real life.


----------



## Zenja

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* 
_Powercords make an audible difference and the difference is more audible in more resolving systems. With my simplistic BSc understanding I used to deny that they could make any difference. Tried swapping a few stock cords, still no difference. After 6 years of denial I tried some different high gauge and shielded cables - noticable difference!

 Science is all about creating theories which model the observable behaviour, not the other way around. If people pull their heads out of the sand they will find there is a difference and if they look a little further there is much science to explain such differences.

 And people should lay off Patrick. It is people like him who go against commonly held beliefs to actually try different things and are the ones who make real discoveries. Despite jumping to expensive conclusions sometimes, it is he who holds the spirit of science and experimentation alive._

 

QFT

 Most people outside of head-fi will turn green in the face before accepting the things that are accepted here. Most of you here are doing the same thing when something like this comes up that's outside your experience. I guess it just really takes experience and trying something in order to believe it unless there's already enough people saying otherwise.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aman* 
_The astonishing thing about this phrase is that you can actually consider what you do a 'hobby' - buying really expensive, useless items and listening to your tiny music library with it. This is no hobby. If you had any real appreciation for music, then listening to music with an active intellectual and musical sense would be considered a 'hobby' (for most, music is merely a pastime). However, I know that you don't have any appreciation for music:_

 

 I don't necessarily concur with some of Patrick's viewpoints or predictions, but at the same time, I find as curious as some of his statements or theories the predilection of some folks to populate these types of threads with the kind of judgmental comments and veiled insults contained in the post above. (Or to put it in more colloquial terms: "What gives you the right"?)

 And Patrick isn't really doing anybody any harm. Criticisms or rebuttals of his views (and most are reasonably polite) are available for newbies and others to consider.


----------



## Elephas

Cable non-believers attack the motivations and character of people who post about cable differences because there's not much else to argue about. There is no common experience, so the arguments boil down to two:

 1. Science = cables don't make any difference
 2. The poster is flawed/crazy/an idiot etc. Why? See No. 1.

 Not all professional recording studios use expensive cables, but not all use $8500 Lavry Gold DACs either. They, like the rest of us, have to decide how to maximize their budget. I don't think there's an argument that different recording studios produce different quality recordings.


----------



## some young guy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aman* 
_I'm not saying it's wrong to be a "believer". I am not going to weigh in on whether or not they make a difference. In my uninformed youth, I purchased a set of DiMarzio interconnects that seemed to widen the soundstage and clear up the mid-bass muddiness of my stereo rig, but it wasn't anything near substantial - it was a minor 2%-5% difference at most. I honestly, however, do not have an opinion as to whether or not cables make a difference._

 

it's too bad you let one set of interconnects sour you on what can be heard with the correct wires in place. i think it's very clear that you definitely have an opinion as to whether or not cables make a difference. my system has benefited greatly from my own consideration of new ideas. rather than spending what i also consider a ridiculous sum of money on cables, i built most of my own. i am a lover of music with over 1200 discs in my collection. every time i make an improvement in my system, part of the fun is running through the collection and hearing differences in recordings i've listened for years. 


  Quote:


 The only thing I am commenting on is the absurdity of Patrick82 and his dangerous influence he has on this community. He can potentially scare away any half-intelligent human being from Head-Fi, or drive any newbie half-insane. 
 

so, driving half-intelligent humans away is bad?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Elephas* 
_Not all professional recording studios use expensive cables, but not all use $8500 Lavry Gold DACs either._

 

I've worked with dozens of recording studios, and I have never found a single recording engineer that advocated the use of high end cables.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## BrianS

another point, just because you have more music doesn't mean you appreciate it anymore than someone else. i happen to have about 20 CD's i enjoy each more than once a week. although my collection is about 200 or 300.

 if patrick wants to spend his money on nordost rather than amp or dac that is his choice. i dont agree that he recommends it to people but apparently he hears a big difference. i value his insights of tweaking when he is soldering cables, bypassing connectors and changing things daily to detect differences.
 sometimes i do wonder how good his ears are and if i could possibly tell the differences but if he can tell good for him.

 now if you really want to go overboard, the deep end, and possibly drown, try the zero from tara labs patrick.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BrianS* 
_now if you really want to go overboard, the deep end, and possibly drown, try the zero from tara labs patrick. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hello new cable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Why settle for air dielectric when you can get vacuum! It has rectangular conductors too, I had that idea myself. Optimizing the gauge size isn't important then.

 Problem is the interconnect needs connectors to keep it at vacuum. So it's air+hardwired VS vacuum+connectors. Since my modded cable is going to be 25 cm with ERS toilet paper roll air dielectric I already know which is going to be best.
 I would like to compare the The Zero Digital cable against Valhalla though! I think it will be better. Only $7k, I already started saving!!


----------



## slwiser

This is a hobby and it is fine that Patrick enjoys tweaking his cables. This thread is fun.

 My main point is if you believe then make sure you don't look behind the curtain it may be a detriment to your belief system. 

 It is magic that is having its sway here.


----------



## skyline889

I thought the whole point of the Nordost Valhalla and the reason why it was so expensive was because the eight conductors were wrapped in an extruded, airtight teflon tube, using Nordost's own proprietary technology to do so. The reason given for the extremely high end pricing was the high ratio of cables dumped due to imperfection compared to the cables actually sold. By cutting the power cords open and resoldering the conductors to new plugs yourself or worse leaving them bare and exposed to the elements as you've done in your hard-wiring of internals/dacs/amps and such, aren't you defeating the whole purpose of the Valhalla cable? Unlless perhaps you have some way of performing the job better than Nordost.

 Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in cables, I myself am using a Analog Research Silver Raincoat power cord, $120 if bought new, $60 used, with just my Head-Five but I just don't see how upgrading a power cable can yield a bigger difference than upgrading a component. I noticed a very very slight increase in resolution with the new cable compared to the cheapy generic one I was using before but it wasn't mind blowing. Even regular rca interconnects provided more of a difference in sound quality.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skyline889* 
_I thought the whole point of the Nordost Valhalla and the reason why it was so expensive was because the eight conductors were wrapped in an extruded, airtight teflon tube, using Nordost's own proprietary technology to do so. The reason given for the extremely high end pricing was the high ratio of cables dumped due to imperfection compared to the cables actually sold. By cutting the power cords open and resoldering the conductors to new plugs yourself or worse leaving them bare and exposed to the elements as you've done in your hard-wiring of internals/dacs/amps and such, aren't you defeating the whole purpose of the Valhalla cable? Unlless perhaps you have some way of performing the job better than Nordost._

 

Defeating the whole purpose? Removing the connectors makes a bigger difference than inert air VS moving air. Even if the silver plating isn't enough to prevent oxidation, it's worth it if I get better sound for a few years. I will upgrade cables then anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Valhalla isn't meant to be used with blocky plugs that worsen the sound. If you believe everything Nordost says then you would need to buy a 2 meter cable for each component instead of cutting them to 50 cm and save a few thousand.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BrianS* 
_another point, just because you have more music doesn't mean you appreciate it anymore than someone else._

 

That may be true if the person with the music lets it sit on the shelf unlistened to. But there is absolutely no way that anyone could have any sort of understanding of any aspect of music with only 20 cds. Music is a language that requires exercise. The more you expose yourself to, and the more you think about what you hear, the more you understand in other music.

 Limiting myself to 20 cds, or one particular type of music, would be like eating Chow Mein every day of my life for all three meals. I could do it, but it wouldn't be very rewarding.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Geoff Rymer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_That may be true if the person with the music lets it sit on the shelf unlistened to. But there is absolutely no way that anyone could have any sort of understanding of any aspect of music with only 20 cds. Music is a language that requires exercise. The more you expose yourself to, and the more you think about what you hear, the more you understand in other music.

 Limiting myself to 20 cds, or one particular type of music, would be like eating Chow Mein every day of my life for all three meals. I could do it, but it wouldn't be very rewarding.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

That's not a bad analogy. Now I have to go and spend some more money on music!


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_That may be true if the person with the music lets it sit on the shelf unlistened to. But there is absolutely no way that anyone could have any sort of understanding of any aspect of music with only 20 cds. Music is a language that requires exercise. The more you expose yourself to, and the more you think about what you hear, the more you understand in other music.

 Limiting myself to 20 cds, or one particular type of music, would be like eating Chow Mein every day of my life for all three meals. I could do it, but it wouldn't be very rewarding.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Some people buy new CDs to get variation, others upgrade their systems.

 After a tweak it's like I'm listening to that album for the first time! But then it becomes boring again so I need to keep on tweaking...

 I don't know the "language" of music, all I understand is detail or no detail, and the more detail the better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 As long as multiple sounds are stuffed together in the album it's good enough, why buy expensive CDs just for different randomizations of sounds? Wouldn't it be better to just have 1 universal album that has it all?
 It's more fun to go deeper into the same album instead of scratch the surface of hundreds of albums.


----------



## hYdrociTy

You know what would blow patrick's mind? pi. You want detail? go find us what pi is using your phenominal patience and attention to miniscule details. The world will thank you for that..and dont believe that nonsense that pi is irrational or it never ends. What do they know right?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe with nasa-approved cables thick enough to tow an 18-wheeler, your calculator will be faster and more accurate.. and then you will get ever closer to your dream of perfection


----------



## markl

Quote:


 My main point is if you believe then make sure you don't look behind the curtain it may be a detriment to your belief system. 
 






 I didn't believe in power cords either. No one is born believing in or having any knowledge of any aspect of audiophilia ($200 headphones? Ridiculous! A dedicated headphone amplifier? Absurd!). We're all skeptics and agnostics to start with, and it all sounds bizarre. 

 I don't think anyone *wants* to spend extra money for the sake of spending extra money (unless they are a moron or absurdly wealthy). I think if someone tries something, and it works, they keep it. If not, it goes up on audiogon. Why keep something that makes no difference or then spend more money on upgrading the things that didn't work for you in the 1st place? Makes no sense to me. There are hundreds of models of aftermarket power cords at all prices, so they must be working for *someone*.

 I resisted buying an aftermarket cord for ages; I mean, on its face, it sounds ridiculous with all that non-audiophile-grade wire behind the outlet. So I went into it with an expectation and a prejudice that power cords were bunk, and only bought one because there was a deal on a $100 cord for $50. For $50 I thought what the hey, at that price, it's worth an experiment just for fun.

 Much to my surprise, the difference this power cord made was clearly audible and undeniable. So despite my bias against it and expectation it would not work, and reluctance to spend extra unnecessary money on further power cord upgrades-- it worked, and I heard the difference. 

 In the last 5 years, I've now owned over 20 models of aftermarket cords and each one has a distinct personality. I've documented my results here in a massive shoot-out review. Not every one was an overall improvement, a few were worse than cheap cords like the popular Volex and Jellyfish, basically just hospital-grade cords, but fine performers. Like with interconnect cables, there is a low correlation between price and performance with power cords. Also as with ICs, results depend heavily on *synergy* with your gear. 

 I think anyone who believes in scientific method believes things must be tried and experienced, rather than rejected on theory alone. Theories have to be tested, and that means listening. Also to listen to just one pair of aftermarket ICs, hear no difference then conclude that all aftermarket cables are bunk is also unscientific. You have only established one of the following:

 1. You personally can't hear a difference, your ears or gear aren't sensitive enough. But you are only a sample size of one.

 2. This particular cable you tried does not make any difference over stock. That leaves all the hundreds of thousands of other models still untested. 


 I do agree, and have always said (with all due respect to Patrick), that putting a $2K cord or IC on a $200 component is absurd. A $200 cord on a $2K component, now that makes sense.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Some people buy new CDs to get variation, others upgrade their systems._

 

I enjoy your posts. They're very funny and ironic. You're an effective troll to this crowd.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_I don't think anyone *wants* to spend extra money for the sake of spending extra money (unless they are a moron or absurdly wealthy). I think if someone tries something, and it works, they keep it. If not, it goes up on audiogon. Why keep something that makes no difference or then spend more money on upgrading the things that didn't work for you in the 1st place?_

 

Shopaholics and people with OCD do that all the time. That's basically what we're talking about here. Most people buy a stereo system- they refine a few things about it- and then they enjoy it for years and years without adding another thing to it. Others feel the need to churn their equipment, replacing cables and components randomly in search of some sort of satisfaction. But the satisfaction comes in the churning, so they never get around to actually listening to music. You can see this happening in the sig files all over this forum. Some people actually admit it.

 For me, it's all about the music, not the wires.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_ But there is absolutely no way that anyone could have any sort of understanding of any aspect of music with only 20 cds._

 

 And there is absolutely no way that you can resist make categorical statements that, due to their overbreadth and the lack of qualification, are not correct (in addition to appearing quite arrogant and judgmental). Classic bigshot.


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Hey Patrick, just out of curiosity, what CD do you do all your tweaking with?


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_Hey Patrick, just out of curiosity, what CD do you do all your tweaking with?_

 

Trance Arena 3 CD1, who needs anything else?






http://www.discogs.com/release/254442


 It has blacker background than my other albums, usually I listen to track 11 and 14 because they have the most detail. Sometimes I listen to other CDs when tweaking.


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Trance Arena 3 CD1, who needs anything else?






http://www.discogs.com/release/254442


 It has blacker background than my other albums, usually I listen to track 11 and 14 because they have the most detail. Sometimes I listen to other CDs when tweaking._

 

Does this album even have one real instrument? Try some classical. That is the most demanding music if you want to test "realism".

 Try this: http://store.acousticsounds.com/brow...14254&section=


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_Does this album even have one real instrument? Try some classical. That is the most demanding music if you want to test "realism".

 Try this: http://store.acousticsounds.com/brow...14254&section=_

 

I have all the best ones and it was a mistake to buy. They are nothing compared to my trance albums.


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I have all the best ones and it was a mistake to buy. They are nothing compared to my trance albums._

 

Hey, whatever floats your boat


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Shopaholics and people with OCD do that all the time. That's basically what we're talking about here. Most people buy a stereo system- they refine a few things about it- and then they enjoy it for years and years without adding another thing to it. Others feel the need to churn their equipment, replacing cables and components randomly in search of some sort of satisfaction. But the satisfaction comes in the churning, so they never get around to actually listening to music. You can see this happening in the sig files all over this forum. Some people actually admit it. 
 

 Speaking for myself, I have around 4000 CDs, I listen to music religiously, I read about music when I'm not listening. For me audio is a drug delivery system for my drug of choice- music. Like any junkie, I'm always looking for a better fix. Equipment upgrades do that for me, they help me enjoy the music all the more, connect me to it better. I'll always be looking for ways to increase the buzz I get from my tunes.

 Wading through the audio jungle is a necessary evil in order to get the most from your music. In my mind, you can't be much of a music lover without paying attention to the means through which it's delivered-- namely your equipment. For me, music lover and audiophile are synonymous not opposites. 

 I hate cooking, can't stand it. So, why would I spend all my time reading about new ovens and utensils, collecting new recipes, and spending thousands of dollars on the latest egg beater? Makes no sense. I find this argument that audiophiles with expensive systems actually hate music is just plain ridiculous on its face.

 Also, who's more ridiculous to you, bigshot, the guy who is always spending his time and energy upgrading his sytem with cables, listening to his gear and not the music, or the guy who spends equal amounts of his (presumably valuable?) time arguing with them about it on a cables forum? You are likely one of the top posters here in this section of Head-Fi, even though you have no knowledge/experience/interest in the topic at hand. Maybe less time spent in here could be more time listening to music for you? Just a thought....


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_ For me, music lover and audiophile are synonymous not opposites. 
_

 

 So true. Just like food lover and cooking enthusiast are synonymous in many respects. Imagine someone saying to someone who likes to prepare elaborate cuisine: "You're really not a food lover like me. I can go right to McDonalds and get a burger and really enjoy it, or sample any of the 50 fast food restaurants in my area at a moments notice, but you don't really enjoy food because you spend too much time selecting the best ingredients for your fancy recipes and and too much time dicing, chopping, mincing and stirring to really enjoy your food."


----------



## hYdrociTy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Trance Arena 3 CD1, who needs anything else?






http://www.discogs.com/release/254442


 It has blacker background than my other albums, usually I listen to track 11 and 14 because they have the most detail. Sometimes I listen to other CDs when tweaking._

 

Track 14: hamasaki!!! wow i used to OD on her music back in my minidisc days...when i was in middle school..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Hey how can you use some "dubious compilation"????? Puke...
 If you didnt live so far away id actually send you some of my ~original~ ayumi cds... 
M and cybertrance...


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_ For me audio is a drug delivery system for my drug of choice- music. Like any junkie, I'm always looking for a better fix. Equipment upgrades do that for me, they help me enjoy the music all the more, connect me to it better. I'll always be looking for ways to increase the buzz I get from my tunes.

 In my mind, you can't be much of a music lover without paying attention to the means through which it's delivered-- namely your equipment. For me, music lover and audiophile are synonymous not opposites. 

 I hate cooking, can't stand it. So, why would I spend all my time reading about new ovens and utensils, collecting new recipes, and spending thousands of dollars on the latest egg beater. 

 Also, who's more ridiculous to[than] you, bigshot...?_

 

While I agree with you Markl that audiophilia and music appreciation are far from mutually exclusive, the ways in which the analogies you make fail are telling. Is it music or sound that gives you the buzz? The music after all does not change with new equipment, just the sound. Having to deliver it better as with a drug has to do with getting a greater dose which sounds like an addictive process that requires ever increasing doses to achieve a buzz. Is it really an "increase [in] the buzz" or needing more intensity/quality to get a buzz over and over as time goes on?

 As to food, the analogy to the above would more correctly be liking food in relation to getting into cooking, though that better correlates to being a musician and getting into the fine points of serving food is the best analogue of audiophilia in the culinary realm. That analogy goes against your assertion that audiophilia and love of music are synonymous. I love food and but hate to cook (or to be a waiter), like you. I love music and I am an audiophile, like you also. So there is no correlation.

 Your most compelling point is that you own and listen to much music all along through all the equipment changes. It is when you cease to enjoy music until you up the dose audiophilically that it is unhealthy, as with becoming addicted to a drug.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_Is it music or sound that gives you the buzz? The music after all does not change with new equipment, just the sound._

 

Well, ALL music IS sound, but not all sound is music. When one is getting the "buzz" from music, it HAS to be through sound; therefore, one must have good sound to have good music. 

 When you go to a live acoustic concert and stuff pillows on your ears, even though the 'music' in the hall has not changed, the inferior sound will ruin your musical experience.


----------



## Duggeh

I just wanted to chime in on this thread, which I have so enjoyed reading.

 I love food, thats the main reason why I'm as overwieght as I am. I also love to cook, at any level, even if its just creatign an elaborate sandwich, or if its cooking a 3 course meal for friends. Although of course, when im doing that, the wine does help a bit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway, I love my music, I love all kinds, although my particular "fetish" is for Mike Oldfield and other various pregressive works. I also love the equipment side of my music hobby, listening to some of my favourites through the different equipment, and then, not nessessarily deciding what I like best, but certianly being able to articulate on the differences (althoguh this is something I'm still learnign how to do).

 My niche behaviour as far as the equipment side of the hobby is concerned, is wanting to experience the really esoteric and unusal headphones that there are, more than I might be interested, for examples, in tubes or cables or formats or LPs or compression via various formats and bitrates or via amplification.

 In any event, some people would say that I am stupid to have spent as much money as I have on Jecklin Floats and Sennheiser surrounders and other more ultimately meaningless paraphanialia, when for the money involved, I could have really readressed the balance at the other end of my system with the Omega 2.

 To them I say flibbertigibbits. I like the swapping, more than (so far) I enjoy the speaking one thru system.

 Where I think I'm trying to go with this is to say:

 Patrick may inspire some people, fascinate others, and disgust others, in how and why he goes about what he does with this hobby that we allhave in common. However, whatever his motivations, what he thinks them to be or what they really might be, if as has been insinuated, but I am in no way my self ever suggesting, mentally unbalanced, what they may be. He is spending his money on what he wants to spend it on. He is garnering immense satisfaction from this pursuit and however "esoteric" we may consider this to be, we have no right to pish posh it off as being ******** and placebo.

 Patrick may be right, or the naesayers may be right, peraonlly I enjoy his contributions to this website on issues and equipment than I nor many actually own, and I look forward to his further tweeking adventures. As for my personal opinion, well youve just had it i that past few sentences, but as for judgement, I would LOVE to hear Patricks system in person, I would really enjoy spending time with him and talking personally about what he likes and dislikes, and maybe if im lucky, ill get a plate of pasta, pineapple and sausage while im there.

 My own personal opinion on powercords themselves? Ive never bought an aftermarket one. But Say if I was to buy one. One. To which device should I attatch it? My amp, my PC, my radio?

 The experiementation would certianly be fun were I to do so, but I would be readily able to recognise the possible placebo effect in my judgements.

 This is something Patrick has never done with his power cable impressions. And with good reason. The second that he were to do so. All of his "credibility" on the subject would discintegrate. And there wouldnt even be any debate over the matter anymore.

 I've typed for long enough and my Gin has gone all warm. Im finishing this ramble now.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Is it music or sound that gives you the buzz? 
 

 Hi, Riboge, don't know how to express the impact of music on my life, except to say that I can't possibly function without my music. 

 I shudder to think what life or this world would be like without music. I couldn't function. IMO, music could be just about the sole justification for mankind's existence on planet earth, despite all the evil we do to each other. I think that if there are ETs, the sole reason they might decide to spare us human beings is our creation of music. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 IMHO, there is no greater form of art, period. Nothing else connects to you like music. Forget paintings, poetry, literature, sculpture, film, or whatever else there is. That's all bull-crap compared to the effect of music. At least it is for me.

 I *need* music like any junkie needs his fix. Sad but true. I wouldn't want to live in a world without music.

 So, for me, all this audio stuff is just a means to an end. The better the gear, the truer the fidelity, the better the fix. It's as simple as that for me...


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_ IMHO, there is no greater form of art, period. Nothing else connects to you like music. Forget paintings, poetry, literature, sculpture, film, or whatever else there is. That's all bull-crap compared to the effect of music. At least it is for me._

 

100% agree. I have never derived more pleasure from any other form of art, not by a long shot. Music is the ultimate expression of artistic communication and emotion.

 I would be lying if I said that I did not enjoy Patricks contributions to this forum. Quite the contrary. His posts are very entertaining. I just take his plethora of adjectives with a grain (or truckload) of salt.


----------



## Riboge

Markl, music has always been to me something along the lines of what you say, though I don't think to the extent it is for you. I sensed that and never thought of what you had to say about power cables or whatever as anything but a fulfilling passion not taking precedence to the music itself.

 JonL, sorry but what you wrote was sophistical and meaningless IMO. Of course music's medium, so to speak, is sound, but the music is not the sound. I have always envied the musician seated near me at my lifelong symphony season tickets who always brought the score and could enjoy the music reading the score even before the performance began.

 Duggeh, I too am not into labelling Patrick ill though I have as a psychiatrist been trying to warn and advise others about going too far, or is it the wrong direction ?, with audiophilia. Patrick is a very creative and adventurous guy, it seems, who is clearly prepared to pay the price, psychically, for his ventures beyond ordinary rationality. Others may not understand or be able to make as informed a decision about this without more input from other points of view.

 In sum, I just want to emphasize how much I enjoy and appreciate these exchanges that Head-fi affords and thank all for their contributions to it.


----------



## Duggeh

Yes. Thats somethign I did not make sufficiently clear in my previous post.

 Whatever the opinions of the individual head-fier, and however they go about the pursuit of their hobby. I deeply enjoy their participation in this forum, it it the diversity of individuals here combined with the understanding an tolerance albiet pointitive of other members which IMHO makes this arguably the finest forum community in the world.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* 
_This is something Patrick has never done with his power cable impressions. And with good reason. The second that he were to do so. All of his "credibility" on the subject would discintegrate. And there wouldnt even be any debate over the matter anymore._

 

All I care about is the Truth, no matter if it's good or bad, or if I'm right or wrong. I keep contradicting myself all the time about other things (non audio), but with cables my impressions have been consistent after over a year. It could change though, everything is possible. If I would find I was running on placebo all this time and it would destroy my credibility, so be it. But until that happens I will keep buying more cables because they are worth more to me than they cost, why else would I spend so much on them?

 Who needs food when you have cable? I don't feel any hunger when listening to Valhalla! It's the best diet in the world!


----------



## Duggeh

Good on you patrick for standin by what you believ in, no matter ho wstrange it may seem to others. I hope that your cablign search brings you to complete fruition eventually.

 As for your diet, well, thats somethign I could never follow, I enjoy my food too mcuh to cut back on my cooking to aid funding my hi-fi. But as I say, thats me and not you.

 If there were someone id send a cable I had just made to for impression itd be you I am sure.

 Id like to know though, what do you do between testing upgrades, I mean it takes time to work up the spare tousands in money to try out or to buy the extra cabling you covet so. Do you spend that time listening to your rig as is, or do you tweek in other ways in the intertime.

 Also, have you ever considered a second pair of headphones or a vinyl rig?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_$3k Nordost Valhalla power cord is great, I use it for everything. Amp, CD player, DAC, power conditioners, computer, projector, LCD monitor, you name it!

 It didn't make a big difference for my video gear though, but I love it for audio!!_

 


 Not sure if these will make a difference, of if you will hear it, but for sure you have some serious extra cash to burn, honestly I will never in my whole life will spend that much in any cables, power or not...BTW if my math is not wrong, using one for each as you mentioned, that add up about $21,000.00....holy cow, I rather would get a brand new car instead...


 Now about the original post, you will get hundreds of answers, that could be group in mainly two sides, the one who believe in that a power cord will improve the sound, and will begin to reco this and that cable, and the ones who believe that you will waste your money and will suggest to get a Volex or a Quail for under $15.00...Ones will hear differences and even name them, and other will say that is no scientific evidence of this improvent and that this is an absurd...both are right according ot their respective points ofview and believes, and you will find literature, articles, and gurus of both aproaches, with explanations, so the asnwer is.......believe what you want, and try it for yourself...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My suggestion, save your money for other upgrades that will give you a lot more enjoyment in life in general, audio or not, and leave the power cords for the last one...


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* 
_As for your diet, well, thats somethign I could never follow, I enjoy my food too mcuh to cut back on my cooking to aid funding my hi-fi. But as I say, thats me and not you._

 

I have been fat my whole life. Valhalla cable is the only thing that worked.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* 
_Id like to know though, what do you do between testing upgrades, I mean it takes time to work up the spare tousands in money to try out or to buy the extra cabling you covet so. Do you spend that time listening to your rig as is, or do you tweek in other ways in the intertime._

 

I watch some tv with my 13 years old 21 inch crt with mono speakers, it works good enough. 
 4 years ago I used to watch 18 MB quality Stargate SG-1 series on computer monitor, it was 160x120 resolution I believe. Sometimes I couldn't see what was going on, but I used the sound to fill in the missing pieces. I used cheap cordless headphones back then. It had background noise and picked up radio, but it didn't bother me.
 When I upgraded to HD590 I couldn't stop upgrading because the improvements were so huge. 

 I don't listen much if it doesn't sound like real life, because all I do is complain about the sound. My ears keep improving so I need to improve the audio system too. Rarely 2 weeks go by without me changing something in the system.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* 
_Also, have you ever considered a second pair of headphones or a vinyl rig?_

 

Based from what others have said, vinyl is the opposite of what I want. I don't like smooth and warm sound.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_BTW if my math is not wrong, using one for each as you mentioned, that add up about $21,000.00....holy cow, I rather would get a brand new car instead..._

 

I choose bicycle + cables.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_JonL, sorry but what you wrote was sophistical and meaningless IMO. Of course music's medium, so to speak, is sound, but the music is not the sound. I have always envied the musician seated near me at my lifelong symphony season tickets who always brought the score and could enjoy the music reading the score even before the performance began.
_

 

 "Music 1. The art of arranging _sounds _in time to produce a composition that elicits an aesthetic response in a listener. 2. Vocal or instrumental _sounds _having some degree of melody, harmony or rythym." American Heritage Dictionary (emphasis added). "Music" is more than just the notes on a sheet of paper. Furthermore, it is only common sense that a systems ability to reproduce the sounds that constitute music correctly add to the enjoyment of music for many. Who's the sophist again?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_Having to deliver it better as with a drug has to do with getting a greater dose which sounds like an addictive process that requires ever increasing doses to achieve a buzz. Is it really an "increase [in] the buzz" or needing more intensity/quality to get a buzz over and over as time goes on?_

 

I think this is really an inappropriate comment, although perhaps I am reading more into it than you intended.

 P.S. Does the addiction extend to the musician who spends a substantial amount of money on a particular type of violin or other instrument? Is he or she really interested in the music, or just in the "sound"?


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Shopaholics and people with OCD do that all the time. That's basically what we're talking about here. Most people buy a stereo system- they refine a few things about it- and then they enjoy it for years and years without adding another thing to it. Others feel the need to churn their equipment, replacing cables and components randomly in search of some sort of satisfaction. But the satisfaction comes in the churning, so they never get around to actually listening to music. You can see this happening in the sig files all over this forum. Some people actually admit it.

 For me, it's all about the music, not the wires.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

If my system would sound acceptable in the first place I wouldn't need to tweak it, it would be kinda pointless. It needs to function properly so I can focus on listening to the music instead of hearing flaws in the system. I'm not a fan of hiding those flaws (background noise) with tubes either. However, tubes aren't too bad for classical recordings since they are low quality in the first place, it's more consistent and realistic if everything gets muddied up. With solid-state there is only clarity in single sounds but everything gets muddy when multiple sounds are playing, the recording gear is no good. But in trance albums there's just clarity all over the place and nothing blends together, ever. You can insert 20 melodies playing at once and they are all distinct. I think people underestimate what Valhalla cables can do.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_Hey, whatever floats your boat
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I think people underestimate what Valhalla cables can do._

 

What I do think, is that you completelly understimate what $21,000.00 can do in other aspects of life, other than cables.....or at least in mine....


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_What I do think, is that you completelly understimate what $21,000.00 can do in other aspects of life, other than cables.....or at least in mine.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

I don't have a life so it does nothing. Nobody needs more than a few hundred per month anyway, anything more is a waste. Some people waste it on hookers and drugs, I waste on cables. As long as you enjoy the ride...


----------



## Thaddy

According to your profile you're 23. That's quite young to already be cooped up inside your place doing absolutely nothing but spending insane amounts of money on *pretty looking cables.*


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I don't have a life so it does nothing. Nobody needs more than a few hundred per month anyway, anything more is a waste. Some people waste it on hookers and drugs, I waste on cables. As long as you enjoy the ride..._

 

Why you say that, do you have any terminal decease??? Everybody has a life, and if by any chance you are spending your daddy's money, and that is the only exsplanation I found to your liberal way of life, please at least be less show off, to call it the least, that hurts sometimes...while ones need money desperately, others are simply trying to find a way of wasting it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











 Who say that nobody needs more than a few hundreds per month? Really? how much is your rent??? and how much is your gas, just to mention two of them, mine is a more thna a few hundred...What you do not really need is to waste $21,000.00 in power cords that will do nothing in your system, other than make it look fancier....


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_Why you say that, do you have any terminal decease??? Everybody has a life, and if by any chance you are spending your daddy's money, and that is the only exsplanation I found to your liberal way of life, please at least be less show off, to call it the least, that hurts sometimes...while ones need money desperately, others are simply trying to find a way of wasting it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Who say that nobody needs more than a few hundreds per month? Really? how much is your rent??? and how much is your gas, just to mention two of them, mine is a more thna a few hundred...What you do not really need is to waste $21,000.00 in power cords that will do nothing in your system, other than make it look fancier....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

 Why don't "we" mind our own freakin' business and let the guy live his life the way he wants. Stop worrying about what others do or what they have when it doesn't affect you. Geez, this is getting ridiculous.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_Why don't "we" mind our own freakin' business and let the guy live his life the way he wants. Stop worrying about what others do or what they have when it doesn't affect you. Geez, this is getting ridiculous._

 


 Because that is a public forum, and we all have different points of view. And what he stated was simply insulting to "some of us", period...BTW my post was directed to him personally, and not to you...

 If you want to do it, that is up to you, go and do it yourself, or simpy stop reading and posting here in this thread, or add me to your ignore list, but please stop telling me what do I have to do, or worry about, I do, and mind, and worry, about what I please!!! Sorry to be rude, and if you do not like it, sorry...


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_Because that is a public forum, and we all have different points of view. And what he stated was simply insulting to "some of us", period...BTW my post was directed to him personally, and not to you...

 If you want to do it, that is up to you, go and do it yourself, or simpy stop reading and posting here in this thread, or add me to your ignore list, but please stop telling me what do I have to do, or worry about, I do, and mind, and worry, about what I please!!! Sorry to be rude, and if you do not like it, sorry... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

Right back at ya, my brotha.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_And there is absolutely no way that you can resist make categorical statements that, due to their overbreadth and the lack of qualification, are not correct_

 

Please. By all means, list the 20 cd titles that are all one needs to give one an understanding of music.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_Also, who's more ridiculous to you, bigshot, the guy who is always spending his time and energy upgrading his sytem with cables, listening to his gear and not the music, or the guy who spends equal amounts of his (presumably valuable?) time arguing with them about it on a cables forum?_

 

Discussing the absurdity of some aspects of audiophilia is a worthwhile passtime when you consider that others are reading these posts. I'm not really talking to you. I'm giving advice to the people out there reading this forum.

 Here is my advice... Don't waste time and money on cables. Spend your money on great speakers, a good amp and an average CD player. Take the money you save and buy lots and lots of great music. I'm always happy to provide recommendations to anyone interested in the areas of music I've explored. A lot of serious collectors took the time to share their knowledge with me, and I'm happy to pass the favor along.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* 
_Well, ALL music IS sound, but not all sound is music. When one is getting the "buzz" from music, it HAS to be through sound; therefore, one must have good sound to have good music._

 

There's an easy way to tell if you are more interested in sound than music. If you go out to buy a classical cd and the fact that it's digitally recorded is more important to you than the conductor, you aren't concerned with the music.

 I have 78s of Enrico Caruso that I play on my Victrola VV-X. The sound quality is far from hifi, but it makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck nonetheless.

 Sound quality is the least important aspect of the appreciation of music. It helps, but performance is everything.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thaddy* 
_According to your profile you're 23. That's quite young to already be cooped up inside your place doing absolutely nothing but spending insane amounts of money on *pretty looking cables.*_

 

Never believe everything people tell you on the internet. You might find out that that drop-dead gorgeous 22 year old Russian supermodel is actually a 50 year old truck driver from Diluth!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## hYdrociTy

Somehow right now I have a desperate urge to sell my liver and kidneys in order to purchase a K1000 and a dac1... not those cables tho.. Man talk about the dark side. I feel like anakin talking to palpatine. I know he is evil... but.. those k1000s and that thousand dollar dac..... arrggg must resist!!!
 Oh noes.. those northern european deity named cables seems desierable too...I better stop looking at this thread...


----------



## Black Stuart

Bigshot,
 stop it your only winding them up - I too am only in it for the music.

 Stuart


----------



## wakeride74

Wow, this thread went straight to crap... There are a few useful comments from people I know enough here to trust their opinion but all is far from a consensus so I think I'll wait until the meet in April to make my own conclusions.


 ok, resume the verbal beatings


----------



## Comfy

Shannyn Sossamon's kid's name is Audio Science Clayton. 
 Somehow I always think about that kid when reading Patrick82's posts. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hYdrociTy* 
_those northern european deity named cables_

 

Valhalla is where the viking warriors went after dying gloriously in battle. Which seems to be Patrick's fate too, at least in this thread...


----------



## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* 
_Wow, this thread went straight to crap... There are a few useful comments from people I know enough here to trust their opinion but all is far from a consensus so I think I'll wait until the meet in April to make my own conclusions.


 ok, resume the verbal beatings
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This thread definitely degenerated into more of the same.

 In any case, even though I am guilty of all sorts of audiophilia, I do suggest that you think twice before throwing down a big sum on power cables. Headphones/speakers (and in the case of speakers, acoustic conditions) and your source material (i.e. music) are going to have the biggest impact on sound IMO. Everything else is just tweaking, which may or may not bring you better results.

 If you would like, I would be happy to lend you a $100 Cobalt power cable for comparison. It might not be a $1000 power cable, but at least you'll have something to compare with your stock cable.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_"Music 1. The art of arranging sounds in time to produce a composition that elicits an aesthetic response in a listener. 2. Vocal or instrumental sounds having some degree of melody, harmony or rythym." American Heritage Dictionary (emphasis added). "Music" is more than just the notes on a sheet of paper. Furthermore, it is only common sense that a systems ability to reproduce the sounds that constitute music correctly add to the enjoyment of music for many. Who's the sophist again?

 I think this is really an inappropriate comment, although perhaps I am reading more into it than you intended.

 P.S. Does the addiction extend to the musician who spends a substantial amount of money on a particular type of violin or other instrument? Is he or she really interested in the music, or just in the "sound"?_

 

I guess I am supposed to respond. Look at what you wrote "the ART OF ARRANGING sound..." Not sound but the arrangement of sound thru time. A given work played thru a cheap radio, from an old scratchy lp or a player piano is the same music but not the same exact sounds. The part of the sound that is essential--the tones and durations---and consistent among these playings is just exactly the aspects audiophiles do not focus on in trying to refine the sound of the music and make it better.

 I don't know what you read into my other comment, but it was a possible interpretation of what markl had written that I put forth to make a point. I was surely not saying listening to music alot is intrinsically addictive, for heaven's sake! I was saying that the effort to improve sound quality thru upgraded components and connectors CAN be for some like an addiction in its pattern of needing ever greater amounts to get a buzz and being about stopping the discomfort of not having such a fix (upgraditis?) more than the continuing enjoyment of music however rendered.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sleestack* 
_This thread definitely degenerated into more of the same.

 In any case, even though I am guilty of all sorts of audiophilia, I do suggest that you think twice before throwing down a big sum on power cables. Headphones/speakers (and in the case of speakers, acoustic conditions) and your source material (i.e. music) are going to have the biggest impact on sound IMO. Everything else is just tweaking, which may or may not bring you better results.

 If you would like, I would be happy to lend you a $100 Cobalt power cable for comparison. It might not be a $1000 power cable, but at least you'll have something to compare with your stock cable._

 

Mighty kind of ya my friend
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There is enough debate around subject that I'm not overly anxious to hear for myself so I'm fine with waiting until the meet. Thanks for the generous offer though


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_ I was saying that the effort to improve sound quality thru upgraded components and connectors CAN be for some like an addiction in its pattern of needing ever greater amounts to get a buzz and being about stopping the discomfort of not having such a fix (upgraditis?) more than the continuing enjoyment of music however rendered._

 

I very much agree. People can be addicted to just about anything, audio components are no exception. I got a little bit that way for a while after finding this place, but I noticed myself not enjoying the music nearly as much. I was analyzing the music more than I aready do normally, switching headphones and tweaking cables. I had three pairs of headphones, and I only really used one. I have managed to convince myself that I should be happy with what I have for now, and I find that I enjoy music more now. I am not looking for flaws, I am just taking in the music. YMMV, but I like where I am at this point.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sleestack* 
_In any case, even though I am guilty of all sorts of audiophilia, I do suggest that you think twice before throwing down a big sum on power cables. Headphones/speakers (and in the case of speakers, acoustic conditions) and your source material (i.e. music) are going to have the biggest impact on sound IMO. Everything else is just tweaking, which may or may not bring you better results._

 

Tweaking my system gave the biggest improvements, and it was for free.

 The difference between gear that costs 4 times more is smaller than the difference between Nordost Vishnu and Nordost Valhalla, at least in my system.
 If I can spend $1000 on source and $3000 on power cord and get better sound than $4000 on source and $700 on power cord, who not choose the one that saves me the most money? There are only doubts just because skeptics say so. Nobody has been crazy enough to try it so nobody says it's a good idea.
 All my source and amp upgrades have been a disappointment because I expected huge differences and all I got was subtle at best. Valhalla power cord made a bigger improvement, and I can plug it into any gear.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_What you do not really need is to waste $21,000.00 in power cords that will do nothing in your system, other than make it look fancier....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			









_

 

The bigger waste would be spending that money on pretty boxes that reduce in value over the years.


----------



## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Tweaking my system gave the biggest improvements, and it was for free.

 The difference between gear that costs 4 times more is smaller than the difference between Nordost Vishnu and Nordost Valhalla, at least in my system.
 If I can spend $1000 on source and $3000 on power cord and get better sound than $4000 on source and $700 on power cord, who not choose the one that saves me the most money? There are only doubts just because skeptics say so. Nobody has been crazy enough to try it so nobody says it's a good idea.
 All my source and amp upgrades have been a disappointment because I expected huge differences and all I got was subtle at best. Valhalla power cord made a bigger improvement, and I can plug it into any gear.
 ._

 

I don't doubt your perceptions and respect your personal preferences. I am in no position to judge what you perceive. I'm also no skeptic as I have gone through enough setups and tweaks myself to understand what works for me. Nevertheless, I do think it is important to point out that you do stand in a vast minority, even among cable believers, if you believe that cables (in a system that has no irregular power or impedance issues) can have a greater impact on sound than speakers/headphones and source material. I question if you have ever done extensive testing with various speaker setups. If so, do you think cables have a bigger impact than room acoustics?


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sleestack* 
_If so, do you think cables have a bigger impact than room acoustics?_

 

Not a chance. I can walk around my room and hear a different frequency balance everywhere I go. No cable makes that amount of difference. Room acoustics is one of the most important things, by far. Play music in a concrete room vs. a well treated room and you'll see what I mean. You can even mess around with spare carpet behind your speakers on the walls. Room reflection is MUCH more variable than cables.


----------



## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_Not a chance. I can walk around my room and hear a different frequency balance everywhere I go. No cable makes that amount of difference. Room acoustics is one of the most important things, by far. Play music in a concrete room vs. a well treated room and you'll see what I mean. You can even mess around with spare carpet behind your speakers on the walls. Room reflection is MUCH more variable than cables._

 

You definitely don't need to be selling me on the importance of room acoustics. I use TACT's advanced room correction systems in all my speaker setups and have demonstrated the impact of room acoustics to many people with the push of a button. Despite the value of my setups, I use Cobalt cables throughout my systems. Not dirt cheap, but not outrageous by any means.


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sleestack* 
_You defintely don't need to be selling me on the importance of room acoustics. I use TACT's advanced room correction systems in all my speaker setups and have demonstrated the impact of room acoustics to many people with the push of a button. Despite the value of my setups, I use Cobalt cables throughout my systems. Not dirt cheap, but not outrageous by any means._

 

I was not trying to sell you anything, as I have nothing to gain. You asked if Patrick thought cables made more of a difference than room acoustics; what do you think he will say? I hope you were asking a rhetorical question, because so far, we have nothing to suggest otherwise that he would give you any other answer than cables mean more than pretty much anything. I am assuming this includes room acoustics. Given the predictableness of his answers, I would open the question up to everyone if I were you, since even you said that he was in the minority with his views on cables (at least to the degree that he believes). 

 IMO, cables do not hold a candle to a properly treated room. I think most people will agree.


----------



## Patrick82

Headphones are better than $1 million worth of room treatments. You can live in a dumpster and get better sound as long as the environment is quiet.

 I think skeptics don't have good enough rooms to hear a difference between cables. Rooms make a bigger difference than cables so it has to be fixed first. But in my headphone system, cables, vibration and power are the weaknesses!


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_ But in my headphone system, cables, vibration and power are the weaknesses!_

 

How? Your cables are worth more than my car
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Besides, there are positional and spatial placement qualities that speakers possess that headphones will never have, not even close. Now, if you want to get inside the music and analyze every minute detail down to what machine created the sound (in your case 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) you are already in heaven


----------



## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_I was not trying to sell you anything, as I have nothing to gain. You asked if Patrick thought cables made more of a difference than room acoustics; what do you think he will say? I hope you were asking a rhetorical question, because so far, we have nothing to suggest otherwise that he would give you any other answer than cables mean more than pretty much anything. I am assuming this includes room acoustics. Given the predictableness of his answers, I would open the question up to everyone if I were you, since even you said that he was in the minority with his views on cables (at least to the degree that he believes). 

 IMO, cables do not hold a candle to a properly treated room. I think most people will agree._

 

Despite the fact that I agree with most of what you have to say, I do think you may need to relax. It just seemed that you thought I was asking Patrick about room acoustics to benefit my own knowledge on the subject. I have no idea if Patrick has any experience with speaker systems. If he does, I would expect him to say that cables have more impact than room acoustics. Nevertheless, there are some pretty simple and overwhelmingly obvious ways to demonstrate the impact of room acoustics to him.


----------



## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Headphones are better than $1 million worth of room treatments. You can live in a dumpster and get better sound as long as the environment is quiet.

 I think skeptics don't have good enough rooms to hear a difference between cables. Rooms make a bigger difference than cables so it has to be fixed first. But in my headphone system, cables, vibration and power are the weaknesses!_

 


 I definitely have the rooms and the equipment to make a better assessment on the subject than you. Headphones are a far more distorted way to listen to music. They are much like looking at objects in a microscope. A resolving speaker system will give you just as much detail with far better presentation and dynamics. Headphones can be immensely satisfying, but any headphone system is relegated to serving as a monitoring tool when put in the same room as a spectacular speaker setup.


----------



## roadtonowhere08

Sleestack: the internet is not very good at the more subtle ways of communication. I did not mean to come off as a preacher to you, but I had no knowledge what you knew. Did not mean to offend...


----------



## Sleestack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_Sleestack: the internet is not very good at the more subtle ways of communication. I did not mean to come off as a preacher to you, but I had no knowledge what you knew. Did not mean to offend..._

 

No problem. We all need a head check if we take this stuff too seriously.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sleestack* 
_I definitely have the rooms and the equipment to make a better assessment on the subject than you. Headphones are a far more distorted way to listen to music._

 

This is undeniably true. Headphones are great for portable listening, or if your family members or neighbors object to your music. But it's no substitute for sound filling a room around you.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## BrianS

what the heck does enjoying 20 cd's a couple times each in a week have to do with an understanding of music? am i not a music lover, an audiophile if i dont enjoy a cd once a year and move on??....


 come on now


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_The part of the sound that is essential--the tones and durations---and consistent among these playings is just exactly the aspects audiophiles do not focus on in trying to refine the sound of the music and make it better.
_

 

 I'm not sure I understand your point, as there seems to be a typo or grammatical error in this sentence, but anyway, how do you know what audiophiles focus on or do not focus on? Again, why are so many people so presumptuous to think they know what other people do when they listen to music, why they listen to music, or why they seek to improve the "sound" of their "music"?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BrianS* 
_what the heck does enjoying 20 cd's a couple times each in a week have to do with an understanding of music?_

 

Music is a language. The more you listen to, the more you understand. If you were still reading the first 20 books you read as a child over and over again, would you consider yourself "literate"?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Please. By all means, list the 20 cd titles that are all one needs to give one an understanding of music.
_

 

 I didn't say that one only needs to listen to 20 CD's to obtain a full understanding of music. YOU said that no one could have any understanding of music if they only have 20 CD's, and that is misleading or at least an overstatement, since one's appreciation of music may have been obtained from other sources, at other times, from other experiences, etc. For example, if the greatest musician in the world with a lifetime of exposure to music decides he only wants to keep 20 CD's in his collection, and to spend the rest of his money on a good audio system so he can just enjoy those 20 CD's for the rest of his life, would you say he does not or cannot have a full understanding of music? Also, you said that no one could have "_any _understanding of _any _aspect of music" with only 20 CD's, and that categorical aspect of the statement is just absurd.

 In any event, why do you have to be so judgmental of others (and snobbish) when it comes to their appreciation of music?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_I didn't say that one only needs to listen to 20 CD's to obtain a full understanding of music._

 

No you didn't. Another poster claimed that he could spend more money on equipment and cables because all he ever listened to were 20 cds. If he really feels that way about music, he could probably save even more money- a boom box would probably suffice.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* 
_How? Your cables are worth more than my car
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Besides, there are positional and spatial placement qualities that speakers possess that headphones will never have, not even close. Now, if you want to get inside the music and analyze every minute detail down to what machine created the sound (in your case 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) you are already in heaven 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Why in heaven?

 If music sounds acceptable and you can listen all day without problems, then why upgrade? But if it sounds horrible you need to find a way to fix the problem. Would you run marathon with broken legs even though you love running? If you can run without pain you will enjoy it more don't you think?

 If I can't hear what the vocalists are singing then how can I understand the music? If everything is covered with mud there is no music! Imagine an art lover who looks at paintings that are covered with a cloth, he can't see anything and he won't understand anything. Or how about a wine lover who has each drink mixed with manure. It needs to be pure! Without proper power the music isn't pure, it's colored.

 People who listen to crappy FM radio don't hear the music like it sounds, all they hear is their own imagination, they create the music in their own minds. For each person the music sounds different, but nobody hears it like it should sound.

 If I can fix a problem so the music becomes listenable to, then how can it be a waste of money? It's completely the opposite!


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* 
_I would LOVE to hear Patricks system in person, I would really enjoy spending time with him and talking personally about what he likes and dislikes, and maybe if im lucky, ill get a plate of pasta, pineapple and sausage while im there._

 

If audiophile comes and listens to my system he would get shocked and die. I don't want my home to be filled with dead bodies...
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Comfy* 
_Valhalla is where the viking warriors went after dying gloriously in battle._

 

You need to build it up with many upgrades over many months. If I would suddenly upgrade from stock cords into a fully modded Valhalla system I would get heart attack.


----------



## Thaddy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_If audiophile comes and listens to my system he would get shocked and die. I don't want my home to be filled with dead bodies..._

 

I'd really like to see this in someones signature


----------



## Aman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Headphones are better than $1 million worth of room treatments. You can live in a dumpster and get better sound as long as the environment is quiet._

 

And when you listen to your miniscule music collection, don't you ever feel the need to actually EXPERIENCE the music? Headphones, not even your precious (now rare) AKG K1000s, can produce the sound stage, depth, and imaging capabilities of speakers.

 For somebody who needs to hear music "right", and in no other fashion, I find it highly odd that you haven't invested all of these outrageous funds into speakers that actually produce an accurate image.


----------



## shplorgh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_If audiophile comes and listens to my system he would get shocked and die. I don't want my home to be filled with dead bodies..._

 

Having seen picutres of this system I think the statement is more literal than intended.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hungrych* 
_Having seen picutres of this system I think the statement is more literal than intended. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Bare air dielectric power cords running all over the apartment would be fun. Nudge and die!


----------



## skyline889

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thaddy* 
_I'd really like to see this in someones signature
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I had a hard time deciding between this quote and, "I tweak too extreme anyway". 






 You are one crazy tweaker Patrick82, wish I had the money or the cojones to do the mods you do.


----------



## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aman* 
_Headphones, not even your precious (now rare) AKG K1000s, can produce the sound stage, depth, and imaging capabilities of speakers._

 


 Yeah cmon Patrick get some decent speakers!


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* 
_Yeah cmon Patrick get some decent speakers!_

 

I don't have 1 million dollars for bigger apartment and room treatments.


----------



## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I don't have 1 million dollars for bigger apartment and room treatments._

 


 If you could pick up some second hand Spendor BC-1 or SP-1, redo the internal wiring and binding posts, and do some DIY room treatments, it will seem as though you are a great deal richer for less than a fancy cable. 

 P.S. And Im not knocking fancy cables
 P.P.S. And they kickass on trance as well!
 P.P.P.S. You might have to change your avatar icon tho


----------



## BrianS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_No you didn't. Another poster claimed that he could spend more money on equipment and cables because all he ever listened to were 20 cds. If he really feels that way about music, he could probably save even more money- a boom box would probably suffice.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

if that is what you got out of my post, it is inaccurate. i meant to say i was enjoying my 20 cd's although i have about 300. is it a crime to have "favorites"? no need to insult my intelligence or hearing ability.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I don't have 1 million dollars for bigger apartment and room treatments._

 

First you stated that you do not need more than a few hundred a month, and now you are complaining becasue you do not have enough money to get more real state for your hobby....you do not need a million, what you need is more common sense, honestly...

 Well FYI for the price you had paid for the cables you have, you can get a decent apt around here, of course not real state enough to play loud a decent pair fo speakers, but hey! is an starting point....get a pair of Axioms, with a good speaker amp, nice sweet spot, sit in a comfortable recliner, Jacky D on the rocks on the hand, dim the light, and you will dump that K-1000 with all that expensive cable pretty soon after acouple of shots, and a nice CD sounding....


----------



## tangsta

Spending 12,000 on POWER cords is a COMPLETE joke to me. 12,000 can be spent much better on a lot of other things. i believe up to a certain point cables make the slightest amount of differences. put it this way, the more expensive your equipment, the more you can hear with different cabling. for god sakes, this guy has a DAC-1 and hes already using valhallas for everything. why dont you just put your power cord on your computer? hey, it might run 300% faster with your terminology


----------



## Tachikoma

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangsta* 
_Spending 12,000 on POWER cords is a COMPLETE joke to me. 12,000 can be spent much better on a lot of other things. i believe up to a certain point cables make the slightest amount of differences. put it this way, the more expensive your equipment, the more you can hear with different cabling. for god sakes, this guy has a DAC-1 and hes already using valhallas for everything. why dont you just put your power cord on your computer? hey, it might run 300% faster with your terminology_

 

He already did


----------



## BrianS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tachikoma* 
_He already did 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

and it runs noticeably, audibly 126x as good as before, with a rating of 337 on a 10 point scale.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangsta* 
_put it this way, the more expensive your equipment, the more you can hear with different cabling. for god sakes, this guy has a DAC-1 and hes already using valhallas for everything. _

 

Price doesn't matter. In my experience the cheaper the power supply the bigger the improvement.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangsta* 
_why dont you just put your power cord on your computer? hey, it might run 300% faster with your terminology_

 

I'm using half of my Valhallas for my computers. I removed one from my LCD and plugged it into a few extension strips and gaming computer. I'm trying to find out if the biggest difference is from lower EMI near the equipment.

 I rarely use that computer so I haven't had a chance to try it yet.


----------



## robert1325

Valhalla in a computer, how cool! 

 I tried my dad's MIT Z-cords ( the old ones) , it sounded tighter and with a quieter background. More focus.


----------



## Patrick82

Ok I tried it with my gaming rig that has Audigy2 soundcard. I had 3 extension strips and 7+ meters stock cords in the path.

 First I listened to 1 meter Valhalla, then 1.5 meter stock. I heard no obvious difference.
 Next I changed stock into 1 meter Statement, I heard a difference! Bass was heavier. Then I changed back and forth and yes there is a difference even with multiple crappy extension strips! I even heard a difference between 1 meter and 1.5 meter Statement, the longer cable had deeper and heavier bass.
 _____________________________

*Nordost Valhalla:* Open. Heavy bass. Fastest sound of all.
*xStream Statement:* Heavier bass. Darker. Less open. Muddy. 
*Stock:* More open than Valhalla. Thinner bass.

 Valhalla sounded good but I didn't know why, later I found out it was because it made the music sound faster. The Valhalla is fatter than neutral which gives colored dynamics, it adds heaviness without sacrificing detail compared to stock cord, so it's both heavy and fast. Background seemed blacker and smoother compared to stock cord, but I wasn't sure.

 Statement sounded good at first. Different sounds were emphasized and music sounded like I never heard it before. But it quickly became fatiguing because of the darkness and muddiness. If someone can't hear a difference between stock and Statement then he must be deaf! In the end I preferred stock cord because it was more open and neutral.

 I liked Valhalla the most but the difference was too small to be worth it.


 After this I replaced the stock cord of my projector into 1 meter Valhalla and text was sharper even with stock extension strips! So this confirms that Valhalla has EMI rejection near the component.
 _____________________________


 This test also confirms that Nordost Valhalla is colored and not neutral. But it still sounds more real life than stock cord does. Hmm, I guess that's why Nordost don't recommend shorter cables. Shorter cables is only good with power conditioning.

 So adding a Nordost Valhalla after long runs of crappy wiring makes a difference because it's colored + rejects EMI from the component.


----------



## tangsta

Do you realize that your cords just feed power to a psu anyways? i really cant make any sense of this at all. please tell me why you would hear even the slightest amount of difference.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tangsta* 
_Do you realize that your cords just feed power to a psu anyways? i really cant make any sense of this at all. please tell me why you would hear even the slightest amount of difference._

 

Placebo is the simple explanation for those with tin ears who don't hear a difference, it makes them feel better about themselves.

 A PSU that is being fed high frequency noise doesn't work properly, when noise is reduced it sounds better. I have lot of theories, but this I know for certain.


----------



## lan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_A PSU that is being fed high frequency noise doesn't work properly, when noise is reduced it sounds better. I have lot of theories, but this I know for certain._

 

Of course it works properly other wise you wouldn't hear anything at all.

 I believe in power cords but I also believe if you are getting extreme in your tweaks you could benefit in modifications. Your power supply also emits some noise. You must do everything to make it better if you're really concerned about power quality 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The power cord although it does something is too far up the chain. Why don't you get into DIY? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It looks like your destiny with all this tweaking and stuff.


----------



## Patrick82

IMO if music sounds too muddy that you need to fill in the missing pieces with your long-term memory, then it isn't working properly. I have a problem hearing what vocalists are singing because I don't have experience in hearing those words in the real world. What I hear is what I hear, nothing more.

 People with low-fi systems use the music as a guide for their own imagination. They might as well not listen to music at all. The music is just there to make them get started with their imagination, but they don't really need it. But if you need the music, you need to hear it all and not parts of it.

 The difference between power supplies is only big if you are using stock power cord. But with Valhalla they all sound the same! I can plug it into cheap computer and it sounds as good as dedicated transport with expensive capacitors. My best PSU + Nordost Vishnu sounded worse than my worst PSU + Valhalla.

 I can't believe people think cables make a subtle difference and should be done last. In my system cables make the biggest difference! Of course the difference is subtle if you compare two cables costing $100 each! I can't even hear that myself. Outlaw PCA and Van den Hul interconnects sound the same to me. No wonder why there are so many skeptics! If I hadn't listened to Valhalla I would be a huge skeptic myself, even a bigger skeptic than bigshot, trust me. To the extreme!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Placebo is the simple explanation for those with tin ears who don't hear a difference, it makes them feel better about themselves._

 

In some people, placebo evokes a feeling of superiority. They pride themselves on what they're (not really) hearing.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## 883dave

a couple of points.

 1) if you have an idea on power cords, to be fair...please advise your system components...and all the pwer cords that you have tried

 2) a power cord is not at the end of the electrical path...rather it is at the start of the path that the component sees


----------



## hYdrociTy

the power signal doesnt do anything but provide the power. Its the audio signal that is amplified, so a good interconnect is in order. Power cables carry an already ugly signal from a home stucture into your equipment. If the cables do make anything clear, then its all the ugliness thats opened up. Hence the coloration. Those power strips dont look like they are of too high a quality either.

 Quality should be spread out to every component..power conditions, and all other cables too.. not concentrated on one fetish object. Its like taking the golden entrance of the trump tower and stacking it in front of a white castle.


----------



## ken36

First I din not believe, then I did, now I don't. Go figure.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* 
_Well, ALL music IS sound, but not all sound is music. When one is getting the "buzz" from music, it HAS to be through sound; therefore, one must have good sound to have good music. 

 When you go to a live acoustic concert and stuff pillows on your ears, even though the 'music' in the hall has not changed, the inferior sound will ruin your musical experience._

 


 Exactly, some cables have a kind of blanket over the sound, whilst others lift the veil and sparkle. Good ones are in the last catagory, and most likely not cheap. Also some cable sound faster then others.

 There are differences in cables, why, probably different materials and isolators, i hear always differences in cables.

 I experimented myself with some different powercables;

 1,5-2,5 mm2(most used diameter) good focus, clear sound.
 4mm2 (warmer sounding, more air and body.

 Silver cables, more (micro) detail in the extreem high and bottom. Some silver cables can be harsh in the extreem high and low.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_In some people, placebo evokes a feeling of superiority. They pride themselves on what they're (not really) hearing.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Yes, my placebo ride began 2 years ago when I couldn't hear a difference between soundcards. 2nd try I upgraded to an amp and heard no difference. But then the 3rd time I upgraded from HD590 to K501 and at the same time made myself believe there was a difference so it would boost my self confidence. Placebo at its best!
 Or then there just _may_ be a difference between headphones after all.

 If cables make no difference, sources and amps make no difference.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_In some people, placebo evokes a feeling of superiority. They pride themselves on what they're (not really) hearing.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Or some people have just better hearing?! Some people run faster, some are more beautiful, some have more brains, etc. Do i have to continue?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 Might also be that some people have more revealing equipment, so that differences are more evident.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Yes, my placebo ride began 2 years ago when I couldn't hear a difference between soundcards. 2nd try I upgraded to an amp and heard no difference. But then the 3rd time I upgraded from HD590 to K501 and at the same time made myself believe there was a difference so it would boost my self confidence. Placebo at its best!
 Or then there just may be a difference between headphones after all.

 If cables make no difference, sources and amps make no difference._

 

Further more, there are a lot of cables internally in audio equipment.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_Further more, there are a lot of cables internally in audio equipment.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, it is amusing when a cable skeptic hears a difference between amps when only the internal wiring has been changed. And then he pays 10 times more for that magic amp.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_If cables make no difference, sources and amps make no difference._

 

The difference between amps is small. The same goes for CD players. The difference between headphones and speakers is huge.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## 883dave

Hey Steve...

 I appears you speak from lack of experience.

 Care to relate some of your audio trails


----------



## drarthurwells

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_The difference between amps is small. The same goes for CD players. The difference between headphones and speakers is huge.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Not true.

 The difference between amps and CD players is huge - though not as big as that between drivers.

 ICs and other cables can may a big difference.

 You must have years of listening experience, with different component, cable and tube changes, and a good idea of what to listen for, plus a top system, to hear differences in changes to that system.

 Very few people can do this.


----------



## F1GTR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *some young guy* 
_it never ceases to amaze me how hot this topic is. no matter what forum it is, it always seems to be the most polarized arguement. if you like to play around with a/c cables, you're a deaf fool who imagines he can hear things that aren't there... i don't understand why some folks get so worked up about it. just because you explain it with an ee degree, doesn't mean it's all phyco-acoustics. i can remember when the same arguements were being made about interconnects too._

 

The fact that this topic is always hot, makes me lean towards the opinion that cables are snake oil.

 If they weren't, they would have proven themselves already. They haven't, hence we have these threads.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *F1GTR* 
_The fact that this topic is always hot, makes me lean towards the opinion that cables are snake oil. If they weren't, they would have proven themselves already. They haven't, hence we have these threads._

 

You'll find that the biggest proponents of vague subjective listening impressions suddenly demand that a person listen to and objectively evaluate each and every cable on the market as soon as one says that there's no discernable difference between them. Logic gets twisted into a pretzel on a regular basis.

 It's pretty clear from just the past couple of posts that some people have a great deal of difficulty putting things in proper perspective when it comes to relative proportions of differences. It's not a huge leap to say that headphones and speakers sound a lot more different from each other than amps and CD players... Five minutes in a stereo store listening room will prove that. Even the most bloody obvious facts get argued with.

 It doesn't take long to figure out whether someone posting has their feet on the ground or not. It always seems to come down to golden ears and super duper rigs that "reveal" problems that LESSER stereo rigs can't reproduce. It feels like I'm chatting with Margaret Dumont instead of hifi nuts sometimes. It's ironic that 90% of the discussion around here is about mods and tweaks and oversampling overkill that make very little difference, when the things that really do make a difference rarely get mentioned at all.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Vul Kuolun

There are at least two kinds of people in audio:

 Those who need to see to be able to hear the grass grow.

 And those who accept that a human can not hear like a bat, and that there are far less subjects unknown in (audio-) science than the tweaking industry wants you to believe.


----------



## 883dave

Steve, I for one do not refute what you hear. 

 Where the problem arrises is from generalized statements.



			
				bigshot said:
			
		

> The difference between amps is small. The same goes for CD players. The difference between headphones and speakers is huge.
> 
> Have you ever heard a Zanden or a CEC transport and DAC combo, compared to a Shanling, Marantz or sony?
> How about a LAMM amp compared to an ARC or Dartzeel?
> ...


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Where the problem arrises is from generalized statements._

 

An excellent point, and certain folks have raised the practice of making generalized, categorical, and judgmental statements to a high art form. Such statements are particularly problematic when the statements themselves use terms that are rather imprecise, or use terms that mean different things to different people. Such terms include terms like "huge," "small," "subtle," etc. The subsequent defense of such generalized and categorical statements, and the intimation that those who question them are not being logical or sane, is rather hilarious. Some folks throw around words and concepts, and argue about principles of logic, as if they know of what they speak. In reality, they just demonstrate that sometimes the more you act like you know something, the less you actually know.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_It's ironic that 90% of the discussion around here is about mods and tweaks and oversampling overkill that make very little difference, when the things that really do make a difference rarely get mentioned at all._

 

Last time I checked, there is a separate forum for headphones (and also amps and sources) and there is plenty of discussion of what the differences are between various headphones, etc. on those other forums. It is also not surprising that this is not discussed extensively on this sub-forum, since it is for the purpose of talking about cables and related tweaks. And 90% of the discussion on this forum is not about those "other" differences, because 90% of us on this sub-forum don't divert or krap on threads like a certain few like to do.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Have you ever heard a Zanden or a CEC transport and DAC combo, compared to a Shanling, Marantz or sony?
 How about a LAMM amp compared to an ARC or Dartzeel?_

 

Have you ever heard the difference between a set of inexpensive Sony portable headphones and a high end pair of Sennheisers? How about the difference between some Tandy bookshelf speakers compared to a set of JBL studio monitors?

 Go out and buy a $100 speaker and a $2,500 speaker and compare them. Then go out and buy a $100 CD player and a $2,500 one and see if the difference is greater or less than the difference between the speakers. I think we both know what the outcome would be without even doing this experiment.

 Money is best spent on the speakers. You get more improvement in sound quality for the bucks than with any other stereo component.

 Speakers - Headphones - Amp - CD Player - Cables in that order.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## 883dave

Steve...

 I assume you saw my post before edit. If not let me know and I will send it to you. Also if you are ever get to the north western region of north america let me know, I will be more than happy to demonstrate.

 I put up a part of my own audio trails to show that, what you state as absolute fact, may differ in anothers real world experiences. When stating what appears to be FACT it is very beneficial to get data on where one's fact arrive from.



 My order would be...Turntable (source), Transducers (I use this term as I am fairly new to headphone and have not had a lot of experience as yet), Room treatment, CD player (although have not comparred fairly in my system), amps (have used different amps, and yes there is a difference here), cables and lastly vacuum tubes.

 Getting back on thread...a power cord, to me is an important part of the equasion. It is the first part of the electrical signal that a component sees. In my experience synergy is important in all cables, there is no absolutely neutral cable. Try as many as you can at different price points, take notes of the difference in sound of each. Then pick the one that sounds best in your set up. If you find no difference consider yourself lucky with all the money you will save. 
 In my system dedicated lines and upgraded recepticles have made more difference than power cables (however this is another topic)


----------



## Patrick82

It is weird that skeptics stay skeptics for so many years. For some reason they want to believe cables make no difference at all. People don't change, so these threads are pretty useless.
 I can change no problem, I went from extreme fasting to extreme eating over night. Tomorrow I could be the biggest cable skeptic in this forum and raving more than bigshot. I don't have any beliefs, past or future doesn't matter, only this moment matters. And at this moment I can hear a HUGE difference between cables. When looking back at a few megabytes of my logs, the impressions are consistent EVERY TIME. What other proof is needed?


----------



## shplorgh

How come every thread patrick posts in becomes the best thread ever?


----------



## 883dave

Patrick...

 Have you ever noticed, that people who state cables make no difference

 GENERALLY

 won't tell you what components they use

 will not state if they have actually ever tried cables 

 believe that anyone who can hear a difference is dillusional

 are very firm in stating what they believe as FACT

 did I miss any?


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Patrick...

 Have you ever noticed, that people who state cables make no difference

 GENERALLY

 won't tell you what components they use

 will not state if they have actually ever tried cables 

 believe that anyone who can hear a difference is dillusional

 are very firm in stating what they believe as FACT

 did I miss any?_

 

Yeah, their profile is always empty for some reason.

 They also don't tell if their system sounds like real life. Because if they would respond yes, then better cables would make no difference at all.

 Some people think that iPod with stock earbuds sounds "perfect" and anything better is magic placebo. Those are the people who do drugs every night in loud parties, no wonder they are deaf.


----------



## 883dave

Yeah...lol


----------



## Joey_V

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_I don't know the "language" of music, all I understand is detail or no detail, and the more detail the better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As long as multiple sounds are stuffed together in the album it's good enough, why buy expensive CDs just for different randomizations of sounds? Wouldn't it be better to just have 1 universal album that has it all?_

 

You are one overly obsessed tweaker, not even an audiophile... just a tweaker for the sake of tweaking - out of boredom most likely. Keep buying your super expensive cables and cut them up... soon you will realize that you spent a fortune on items that have absolutely ZERO resale value. When that day comes, you will realize that you have spent way way more than your tiny music collection was worth spending on. 

 And yes... your room is a fire hazard.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joey_V* 
_You are one overly obsessed tweaker, not even an audiophile... just a tweaker for the sake of tweaking - out of boredom most likely. Keep buying your super expensive cables and cut them up... soon you will realize that you spent a fortune on items that have absolutely ZERO resale value. When that day comes, you will realize that you have spent way way more than your tiny music collection was worth spending on. _

 

Valhalla is too good to sell, that's why I cut them to pieces. At least I can use them with video gear when I get bored of music, it's a great investment. A bigger waste would be buying a $50k magic CD player. 
 Valhalla is a great bang for my buck, I can plug it into anything! Not only does it improve the performance of my gear, it helps me lose fat as well!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Joey_V* 
_And yes... your room is a fire hazard._

 

I run all my computers with the cover off for lower temps, who doesn't? Putting harddrives outside the case keeps them from burning up from heat. As long as there aren't any pets to fry it's safe. Old hairy grandma with magic candles all over the house is a bigger fire hazard.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Tomorrow I could be the biggest cable skeptic in this forum and raving more than bigshot._

 

I don't rave. I just point out plain old horse sense. For some reason that makes certain people (the same four or five of them) very agitated.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Elephas

The biggest difference I've encountered so far using different power cables was with the Dared MP-5 amp. Changing the power cord from a generic one to a Zu Birth to an ASR Audio cord reduced hiss and hum, making the background quieter and blacker.

 Other gear have also been affected by power cord changes.

 --

 I don't participate in Head-Fi to argue. I come here to learn and share my experience. I'm interested in all aspects of sound reproduction, which includes associated gear such as power cords. There's not much I can do except to listen, take notes, listen some more and post impressions. I appreciate others who do the same. 

 Those who state xxx this or that doesn't make a difference, it's impossible, etc. aren't providing information I can use. All the equations, electromagnetic theory and logical "plain old horse sense" posted here won't make me think I don't hear a difference.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Elephas* 
_I don't participate in Head-Fi to argue. I come here to learn and share my experience. I'm interested in all aspects of sound reproduction, which includes associated gear such as power cords. There's not much I can do except to listen, take notes, listen some more and post impressions. I appreciate others who do the same. 
_

 

 Yeah, that's what this hobby is all about, IMO. For some reason though, this make scertain people (the same four or five of them) very agitated.


----------



## F1GTR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_Yeah, that's what this hobby is all about, IMO. For some reason though, this make scertain people (the same four or five of them) very agitated._

 

No I think what makes them agitated is the fact that this forum, because of its DBT-free policy, leans toward agreeing with those that believe that cables actually do make a difference. There doesn't seem to be any room for real debate, because that might cause a little arguing and hurt feelings and well we just can't have that. Since a large amount of people on this forum still don't believe in cables, this policy creates agitation.

 To me the real problem here lies in the fact that the majority of those that have already chosen to believe in cables, or vice versa, simply refuse to believe those that choose otherwise NO MATTER WHAT INFORMATION THEY MAY BE PRESENTED WITH. The cable believers seem to almost always make the assumption that the the cable doubters have only tried a whole one or two sets of cables in their lifetime and are therefore not qualified to speak on the subject. On the other hand, the cable doubters have no physical and scientific proof that the cables are making a difference and therefore write off what the cable believers are hearing as placebo. This problem/anomaly is only exacerbated by the DBT-free policy IMO.

 I've tried out my fair share of cables, and while I may have wanted to believe that I noticed a slight change in the sonic signature between them, the change was exactly that...slight. So slight in fact that it created internal doubt as to whether I was actually hearing the difference I thought I was perceiving. After this experience, I was far less inclined to spend $300+ on a set of cables considering I couldn't hear much, if anything, between the $100-150 pairs I had tried.

 I believe the majority of cable doubters fall in to this category with myself. They have tried cables, whether the cable believers choose to believe they have or not, in the past and have come to the conclusion that spending thousands of dollars on cables is not for them based on the price/performance ratio. If one can't hear much of anything between a few $150 pair of cables, why in the heck would they even consider a Nordost option?


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *F1GTR* 
_No I think what makes them agitated is the fact that this forum, because of its DBT-free policy, leans toward agreeing with those that believe that cables actually do make a difference._

 

 My gut reaction to this is: So what? Why can't we have a forum where people (crazy though they may be) just want to talk about cables and tweaks and how this or that cable really improved their system (in their mind at least) without every thread being inundated by the skeptics? _That's _what creates agitation. This is a hobbyists' forum, not a graduate EE seminar.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *F1GTR* 
_ I've tried out my fair share of cables, and while I may have wanted to believe that I noticed a slight change in the sonic signature between them, the change was exactly that...slight. So slight in fact that it created internal doubt as to whether I was actually hearing the difference I thought I was perceiving. After this experience, I was far less inclined to spend $300+ on a set of cables considering I couldn't hear much, if anything, between the $100-150 pairs I had tried.

 I believe the majority of cable doubters fall in to this category with myself. They have tried cables, whether the cable believers choose to believe they have or not, in the past and have come to the conclusion that spending thousands of dollars on cables is not for them based on the price/performance ratio._

 

 Well, there's no way to really determine this as a factual matter, but I disagree with this assertion about how many cable skeptics have actually tried aftermarket cables. Repeated posts on this board on the cable issue routinely include many so-called skeptics stating that they have not tried aftermarket cables and that they have no intention of doing so, because they cannot possibly make a difference. 

 On the other hand, I respect your experience and viewpoint, as you have actually tried the experiment. So you have something valuable to contribute, IMO, based on an actual trial. That's useful, and I for one, would consider your experience in my own evaluation of the issue. On the other hand, my experience and the experience of many others is different. Why must certain skeptics assume that because they didn't hear a difference in their system under their listening conditions, etc., that I could not hear a difference in my system, or that nobody else can? And why must some assume that what's "not for them based on the price/performance ratio" might not be desirable or "right" for others?

 That's really what it gets down to. I don't care if others don't hear differences and don't want to spend money on cables. That's fine. To each his own. I also don't have problems with people who make statements like: "I tried aftermarket cables and I did not really hear any difference," or "the differences I heard were very subtle and not worth the cost." But many (by no means all) of the skeptics seem to make it their life mission to make sure others (a) don't spend their own money on cables or determine what's "right" for them, and (b) don't talk about cable or tweaks and what works for them without the important quaification that "nobody has ever proven that cables make an audible difference, and the reported differences are all placebo, blah, blah, blah. 

 And on this latter point, it is particularly "agitating" that the comments of many skeptics are rarely: "I have not heard a difference in my experience . . . " or "I don't think that the evidence that cables make an audible difference is persuasive . . . ," or "In my opinion, people should really consider how much of what they purport to hear might be explained by placebo effects . . . ." These are certainly valid viewpoints that are worthy of serious consideration. But instead, they always have to make absolutist type statements -- and in the majority of cases there is no absolutely _no _reference to actual experience -- to the effect that cables can't possibly make a difference and anybody who believes otherwise is foolish and basically in the same cateory as people who believe in alien beings. These folks are not interested in a reasonable dialgoue (and I think you and I and others could have one), assuming it is appropriate in the context of a given thread, but only in trolling for opportunities to start a fight.


----------



## bigshot

It's human nature to believe that the particular product that you bought is the best. And it's also human nature to resort to ad homiem attacks and mocking when you can't offer well supported arguments.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *F1GTR* 
_If one can't hear much of anything between a few $150 pair of cables, why in the heck would they even consider a Nordost option?_

 

Because the difference between stock and cheap cable is too small to be audible. When I upgraded from stock to Nordost Vishnu the difference was very small, but when I upgraded from Vishnu to Valhalla the difference was HUGE. With Valhalla I got more than I paid for, much more. But with cheap cables I would rather use stock cable instead, they give more for my money.

 You can also modify the Vishnu into twice the size, I liked the flavor with my DAC1 for a while.






 Or 4 times the size:





 With my Krell KAV-500i power amp it gave heavier bass and the smoothness of tubes. It was very relaxing and had the same detail as Valhalla but without the transparency and scary dynamics. For a while I considered changing to the "QuadVishnu" flavor but instead I downgraded my amp to match the current draw of my Valhalla cable. Yes, I built my system around my cables.


----------



## 883dave

Quote "And it's also human nature to resort to ad homiem attacks and mocking when you can't offer well supported arguments"

 It is also human nature to disparage anything you don't understand or believe!

 How does one offer well supported arguments when the only instrument we have to guage is our own ears? You can't possibly hear what I hear, just as I can't hear what you hear.

 Sort of like telling someone they are crazy for not liking the taste of a certain food, just because you do.

 Without the ground work of knowing what products a person has tried and in what situation is, in my mind, arguing color with a color blind person

 I have played with numerous cables...interconnects, speaker, power cords, and yes even the wires in my walls. Some I did not hear any difference, others slight, and to MY EARS I will repeat to MY EARS one set made so much different to my music listening enjoyment I splurged and bought them (these were Tara Labs the One). They lifted a veil, made the music more coherant from bottom to top. When the girlfriend came home and listened for several seconds (she did not know anything was different), she looked at me with rolling eyes and said "how much did that up-grade cost"


----------



## 883dave

Patrick...

 You state you have built a system around your cables. 

 Have you tried getting better components to go with those cables? 
 If not you might want to try a much better Source with your cables, you might be shocked how much better those cables can sound.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 There doesn't seem to be any room for real debate, 
 

 What is it with the flat-earthers on this board? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 There are conspiracy theorists who claim that all original and *allegedly* contrary thought is automatically shut down by the Head-Fi thought-police (in threads going on for weeks with dozens of pages of replies), and here we have a cable nay-sayer, 190+ replies in claiming he has no ability to argue his point! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Have you read this thread? Do you read *any* threads in this section of Head-Fi? Do any of these threads ever end up in anything but a food-fight between believers and non-believers? What can't you say that you haven't already said? Do you expect your post to be eliminated and to be banned? What about all the other doubters in this thread who've expressed themselves already? Their posts are still intact.

 So many flat-earthers have a weird persecution complex it seems to me. Only talk of DBT is "banned" in here, and if you ask me, the mods are WAY too lax in "enforcing" it. It's discussed all the time here, even if indirectly ("where's the scientific proof" etc.)

 I know the mod staff. There are at least *some* cable nay-sayers among them, so it's not a matter of enforcing any Head-Fi "dogma" which just doesn't exist.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Patrick...

 You state you have built a system around your cables. 

 Have you tried getting better components to go with those cables? 
 If not you might want to try a much better Source with your cables, you might be shocked how much better those cables can sound._

 

In my system cables, vibration and power are the weaknesses, not the source or amp.

 The shorter path the better. I don't want my CD player jammed with so many bells and whistles that the signal can't pass through anymore. 
 I downgraded to Benchmark DAC1 because it sounds more transparent than the big boxed mysterious high-end. My $4000 Cary 303/300 sounds muddy in comparison. I don't want to spend 20 times more for "what if it sounds as good as DAC1 with 4 step isolation instead of 5 so it's going to save me $400 worth of isolation feet?". I'm not able to do 5 step isolation with a bigger box because my rack isn't high enough and my table is in the way. Going from 4 to 5 steps made a HUGE difference.









 DAC1
 5) Feet Of Silence
 metal plate
 4) Feet Of Silence
 GCC-100 amp
 3) Feet Of Silence
 2) Suspension shelf
 1) Disc Of Silence


----------



## HumanMedia

Have to admit I think the Cary is great overall but the bass is muddy. The proportion is right its just that its character is very wooly or 'all the same'.


----------



## Elephas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_It's human nature to believe that the particular product that you bought is the best._

 

I don't believe the products I use are the best. In fact, I know that they aren't, because I've experienced better.

 I had the chance to audition gear at some local audio shops. I could try cables with their demo gear or bring my own. There were cables I didn't like, some I didn't have much of an opinion on, and some that sounded the same as others lower in price. There was no pressure from the sales staff who left me alone with the gear.

 I would much rather not spend money on cables. As far as I'm concerned, they're out of sight, out of mind. I hate crawling and mucking around at the back of the rack plugging and unplugging cables. I don't want to look at or think about cables, power cords, interconnects, etc. But if they affect the sound, I care about them.

 Some cables I auditioned improved the sound. How much of an improvement? I don't think it was night and day, or like different headphones. It was much more subtle. With music and gear I am familiar with, the difference was more obvious and significant to me. One power cord made the background darker, increased contrast and dynamics and brought out more details and texture. It made enough difference to be worth the price to me. Others may not think so, and that's fine.

 Am I going to spend more time and money looking for better power cords? No, because I'm satisfied with the current one. Those who believe cables make no difference should be satisfied with their cables, too.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Whats that plate between the DAC and the pre? You're trying to catch precious resonances, right? With damping foots in between?

 This maybe the reason why there are so few sceptics here at head-fi: Who needs sceptics, when you can have believers like this guiding the subject into the abyss of absurdity?


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_Whats that plate between the DAC and the pre? You're trying to catch precious resonances, right? With damping foots in between?

 This maybe the reason why there are so few sceptics here at head-fi: Who needs sceptics, when you can have believers like this guiding the subject into the abyss of absurdity? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I just wanted to place something thin in between both sets of isolation feet. I was worried the plate would make it worse, but the overall improvement was much bigger than I thought it would be.


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_They also don't tell if their system sounds like real life._

 

A question Patrick.

 You keep mentioning sounding like real life, but didn't you say your listening test source was a techno compilation album? It's all manfactured sound, I realy don't understand what you are saying.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_How does one offer well supported arguments when the only instrument we have to guage is our own ears? You can't possibly hear what I hear, just as I can't hear what you hear._

 

Good question!

 I can offer observations based on my subjective perception that you *can* understand... "The music at that heavy metal concert was very loud." "This soup is very salty." "The glare of the setting sun was in my eyes and I couldn't see the car until I rear ended it." These are all observations that are consistent with your own experiences at one time or another.

 I can tell you if the highs in your system are too harsh, turning down the treble dial might help. I don't need to know how your system sounds to you, or what difference the treble control makes to your ears.

 However, if one person says that a cable gives their system "analogue warmth" and another person says the exact same cable made their system "more detailed with extended highs", we've got two completely different observations that don't seem to relate to each other.

 The reason that the subjective observation of the effect of cables is impossible to convey to another person isn't because it's subjective... it's because every observation seems to be different. We measure the cables, and they meausure consistently. Why don't they sound the same?

 The logical answer is that the cable itself isn't responsible for the differences in the way it's perceived... the individual listener's *perception* is the wild card causing the different results.

 If that's the case, we can say, "Go ahead and use whatever sounds best to you." But that isn't exactly useful advice. It's more useful to say, "there is no difference between the sound of cables- it's better to focus your time and money on tweaking the things that really DO make a difference".

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* 
_A question Patrick.

 You keep mentioning sounding like real life, but didn't you say your listening test source was a techno compilation album? It's all manfactured sound, I realy don't understand what you are saying._

 

Vocals aren't manufactured. Some albums also have nature sounds that I couldn't tell apart from birds singing outside my window.

 I don't want my system to sound similar to orchestral instruments, I already had that a year ago. I only care about real life transparency. The sounds need to come from a black background around me. If the background is noisy like with my reference classical recordings, then it doesn't sound like real life no matter how "similar" the instruments sound like. If the background is black but the detail is muddy, then it also doesn't sound like real life. Nordost Valhalla power cable is the only one I tried that does it both. Black background + detail.


----------



## shplorgh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Vocals aren't manufactured. Some albums also have nature sounds that I couldn't tell apart from birds singing outside my window.

 I don't want my system to sound similar to orchestral instruments, I already had that a year ago. I only care about real life transparency. The sounds need to come from a black background around me. If the background is noisy like with my reference classical recordings, then it doesn't sound like real life no matter how "similar" the instruments sound like. If the background is black but the detail is muddy, then it also doesn't sound like real life. Nordost Valhalla power cable is the only one I tried that does it both. Black background + detail._

 

Real life doesn't have a "black background"...


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hungrych* 
_Real life doesn't have a "black background"..._

 

Why? I don't hear any added noise from real life.


----------



## shplorgh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Why? I don't hear any added noise from real life._

 

Unless you live in an anechoic chamber or have terrible hearing, there's ambient noise pretty much everywhere.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hungrych* 
_Unless you live in an anechoic chamber or have terrible hearing, there's ambient noise pretty much everywhere._

 

I can't hear the dust mites crawling on my bed. My ears are too bad... It's just dead black. The only thing that makes sound in my room is the clock ticking on the wall, wind outside window, Zalman Reserator humming, my body humming, whine from my computer mouse. Everything around them are black! That's not the case with most audio gear, there's noise all over the place that shouldn't be there. The objects in the soundstage should be surrounded with blackness! 

 EDIT: To get transparency the contrast ratio needs to be as big as possible. Valhalla does it by hiding some of the detail (background noise) but compensating for it with the silver plating which makes it "whiter". So it's both blacker and whiter than neutral. When making Valhalla thinner you get more detail and background noise but it doesn't sound white anymore because the contrast is different. That's how Valhalla gives fake dynamics.


----------



## Aman

A recording with excellent instrumental dynamics, sound stage, imaging, and realism, with some slight analog noise in the background, is a much more realistic recording than a black background with computerized noises and vocals with effects up the wazoo...


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_To get transparency the contrast ratio needs to be as big as possible. Valhalla does it by hiding some of the detail (background noise) but compensating for it with the silver plating which makes it "whiter". So it's both blacker and whiter than neutral. When making Valhalla thinner you get more detail and background noise but it doesn't sound white anymore because the contrast is different. That's how Valhalla gives fake dynamics._

 

I think we should come up with a prize for really creative theories like this! I have a buddy who came up with one almost as good... He says that married couples tend to look and act alike the longer they've been married. He theorized that they were sharing spit when they kissed and their DNA was intermingling. Brilliant!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## 883dave

Steve are stating that you have heard a difference in cables but can not find any measurements to back up the difference you hear, so you chock it up to perception and move on?

 QUOTE

 If that's the case, we can say, "Go ahead and use whatever sounds best to you." But that isn't exactly useful advice. It's more useful to say, "there is no difference between the sound of cables- it's better to focus your time and money on tweaking the things that really DO make a difference".

 How is a persons experiences with cables or what ever makes their / a system sound different not useful advise. And it would be a lot better for you to say "( In my opinion) there is no difference between the sound of cables- it's better to focus your time and money on tweaking the things that really DO make a difference".


 Steve for the record please state what cables you use, have used, and on what equipment. You seem to talk as a man strong convictions without any evidence to back yourself, am I missing where you have stated your trials??


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aman* 
_A recording with excellent instrumental dynamics, sound stage, imaging, and realism, with some slight analog noise in the background, is a much more realistic recording than a black background with computerized noises and vocals with effects up the wazoo._

 

I'll tell you a secret technique that sound mixers know, but they don't like to admit that they use...

 If you have a track that is a little weak on the high end, and you can't EQ it to correct for it because the high frequency info just isn't there to pull up, you can make it sound brighter and less muffled if you add a tiny bed of hiss in the 8-12kHz range. The ear will hear the hiss and imagine high frequency information in the track that doesn't exist. I know engineers who keep a sample of tape hiss to work into their mixes in cases like this.

 This is also why some CD reissues of analogue recordings sound slightly muffled compared to the LP release. The low level sound of tape hiss and crackle is giving the impression of high frequency sound that isn't there in the recording- remove the noise with a dynamic noise filter and the sound becomes muffled- even if the dynamic filter is set to just filter the lowest volume level stuff.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* 
_Steve are stating that you have heard a difference in cables but can not find any measurements to back up the difference you hear, so you chock it up to perception and move on? Steve for the record please state what cables you use, have used, and on what equipment. You seem to talk as a man strong convictions without any evidence to back yourself, am I missing where you have stated your trials??_

 

I'm saying, if people who claim to hear a difference can't even agree on what that difference is, AND measurements don't indicate that there is any difference, AND the stuff we aren't allowed to talk about here indicates that there is no difference... odds are the differences are in perception, not the cable itself. (I have a few more ANDs that I left out...)

 I use Radio Shack cables on all of my equipment, except for the XLR and BNC connectors which I buy at Electronic City in Burbank, CA. I don't have a fixed audio rig. I have a closet full of equipment that moves around between my home system and my audio workstation as I need it. It's a wide variety of stuff from pro grade equipment to midrange stereo store stuff. I don't generally buy audiophile equipment, because I can find midrange stuff or pro grade equipment that performs the same at a much lower cost. My speakers are the most important part of my system. They were designed for me by a friend of my brother's who manufactured speakers for JBL and RSL back in the late 70s. I've supplemented them with a pair of Klipsch rear channel speakers that I found I liked.

 I've worked in the film business as a post production supervisor for 20 years. In that capacity, I've supervised sound mixes for TV and CD release, as well as music, vocal and dialogue recording sessions. I've got more hours racked up in the studio than I can ever count, and I've worked with some excellent engineers (and a lot of lousy ones too!) Some of my best friends are musicians and sound engineers. They enjoy talking shop with me and hearing about the hijinx that go on in this forum.

 I've only reported on one of my tests in this forum. It's in a thread called 2 Channel SACD. It wasn't a strictly scientific test, but it was sufficient for my purposes. In the past, I've run similar listening tests on my iPods and the various pieces of equipment I was considering purchasing. I don't plan to do any tests of cables in the near future, because there are much more important things to do. You may think that makes me uninformed to comment, but I don't need to go to the moon to know that people who claim it's made of green cheese are wrong.

 How's that?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I'm saying, if people who claim to hear a difference can't even agree on what that difference is, AND measurements don't indicate that there is any difference, AND the stuff we aren't allowed to talk about here indicates that there is no difference... odds are the differences are in perception, not the cable itself. (I have a few more ANDs that I left out...)

 I use Radio Shack cables on all of my equipment, except for the XLR and BNC connectors which I buy at Electronic City in Burbank, CA. I don't have a fixed audio rig. I have a closet full of equipment that moves around between my home system and my audio workstation as I need it. It's a wide variety of stuff from pro grade equipment to midrange stereo store stuff. I don't generally buy audiophile equipment, because I can find midrange stuff or pro grade equipment that performs the same at a much lower cost. My speakers are the most important part of my system. They were designed for me by a friend of my brother's who manufactured speakers for JBL and RSL back in the late 70s. I've supplemented them with a pair of Klipsch rear channel speakers that I found I liked.

 I've worked in the film business as a post production supervisor for 20 years. In that capacity, I've supervised sound mixes for TV and CD release, as well as music, vocal and dialogue recording sessions. I've got more hours racked up in the studio than I can ever count, and I've worked with some excellent engineers (and a lot of lousy ones too!) Some of my best friends are musicians and sound engineers. They enjoy talking shop with me and hearing about the hijinx that go on in this forum.

 I've only reported on one of my tests in this forum. It's in a thread called 2 Channel SACD. It wasn't a strictly scientific test, but it was sufficient for my purposes. In the past, I've run similar listening tests on my iPods and the various pieces of equipment I was considering purchasing. I don't plan to do any tests of cables in the near future, because there are much more important things to do. You may think that makes me uninformed to comment, but I don't need to go to the moon to know that people who claim it's made of green cheese are wrong.

 How's that?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Some engeneers also use audioquest high end silver cables and high end equipment(mark levinson).They are so proud of it that they mention it on the back of the cd and state it is recorded with high end cables and equipment and sound the best. So, even amongst engeneers they don't think the same about cables and equipment.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Maybe that's the reason why there's such a difference in recordings because of the cables and equipment used in the recordings.
 Some recordings sound really bad, maybe the radio shack cables?!

 I aslo know musicians, none of them use the same equipment or cables, yet they all think their system sounds closest to the real instrument. If i leaf out the differences in cables and equipment, how can you explain the fact that none of em are using the same speakers? You said the bigger differences are in the speakers...HHmm, even the so called experts can't deside wich equipment(speakers) is closest to the real instrument...or they must hear all different?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cables:
 so, theoretically you guys are compensating for lack in detail in cables in a recording, you said yourself that you guys do that. It's possible that with better cables, there is more info for the mix and doesn't need as much noise as with a cheaper cable?! Especially reference type of cables gain more in the higher frequencies.

 it indeed seems that some manufacturers, like apogee and benchmark, make pro type of equipment that is cheaper in comparison to home audio. The 1000 dollar dacs of those companies are performing quite well for the money. However, there are said to be much better dacs in the home audio section. So, it seems that pro audio is not using the best equipment, some studio's are using home audio high end equipment(krell, mark levinson).

 None of you claim is written in stone amongst professionals.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_Some engeneers (sic) also use audioquest high end silver cables and high end equipment.They are so proud of it that they mention it on the back of the cd and state it is recorded with high end cables and equipment and sound the best._

 

That's advertising. People with a high profile can make money from product endorsements. My musician friends all get free instruments if they promise to use them on stage and in publicity photos.

 I'm sure that the people who advertise that they use a particular brand of cables do actually use them. But I doubt that it makes any real difference to the sound of the CD. There are a million things in a mix that make a lot more difference than the cabling.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_If i leaf (sic) out the differences in cables and equipment, how can you explain the fact that none of em are using the same speakers?_

 

The speakers are all set up in different rooms.

 Even from speaker to speaker in a given product line there are variations. That's why you do room treatments to optimize the sound the speakers produce and equalize to compensate for the errors in response. This is Audio 101.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_so, theoretically you guys are compensating for lack in detail in cables in a recording, you said yourself that you guys do that._

 

No, I didn't. I said that the performance of a high end cable is identical to the performance of a reasonably well made Radio Shack cable. They both conduct the signal equally and sound the same.

 When I spoke of detail, it was relating to the distance between the musician and the microphone. More detail is not necessarily better when it comes to soundstage. Natural presence and a clear sonic placement of the instruments is the goal. If one instrument is close miked and another is miked from a distance with room acoustics, they won't sound like they're on the same planet when you mix them together. You can't close mike everything and build a realistic soundstage with digital reverbs either (although plenty of engineers try...)

 Soundstage is just as important for mono recordings... The most shockingly real sounding record I ever heard was an early RCA side by Jim Reeves. I can't remember the title, but it was early- before Four Walls- before Chet Atkins let Reeves croon softly directly into the mike. If you closed your eyes, the subtle differences in room reflection allowed you see the placement of each instrument in three dimensions. Really cool sound.

 I have a 1930s record by Joe Daniels and his Hotshots, a UK hot jazz dance band, where the clarinet runs out of the studio and down the hall to take a solo. He sounds all distant and dreamy. It really surprises you when he sneaks back into the room for the big finish.

 A friend of mine is recording at Sun Records in a month or two. It's the same room that Jerry Lee Lewis, Roy Orbison and Elvis Presley recorded in. He has heard other modern recordings made in the same room, and they don't have that immediate presence of the old 50s Sun records. So he looked up the guy who engineered for Sun and asked him to draw a diagram of the placement of the musicians in the room, and where the monitors were placed. It's not at all how one would expect it to be set up. He's going to set the room up exactly the way this guy described it. Sun Records even has the same piano used in all the sessions with a burn mark on a key in the lowest register where Jerry Lee would rest his grit. That's authenticity you can't fake!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_That's advertising. People with a high profile can make money from product endorsements. My musician friends all get free instruments if they promise to use them on stage and in publicity photos.

 I'm sure that the people who advertise that they use a particular brand of cables do actually use them. But I doubt that it makes any real difference to the sound of the CD. There are a million things in a mix that make a lot more difference than the cabling.



 The speakers are all set up in different rooms.

 Even from speaker to speaker in a given product line there are variations. That's why you do room treatments to optimize the sound the speakers produce and equalize to compensate for the errors in response. This is Audio 101.



 No, I didn't. I said that the performance of a high end cable is identical to the performance of a reasonably well made Radio Shack cable. They both conduct the signal equally and sound the same.

 When I spoke of detail, it was relating to the distance between the musician and the microphone. More detail is not necessarily better when it comes to soundstage. Natural presence and a clear sonic placement of the instruments is the goal. If one instrument is close miked and another is miked from a distance with room acoustics, they won't sound like they're on the same planet when you mix them together. You can't close mike everything and build a realistic soundstage with digital reverbs either (although plenty of engineers try...)

 Soundstage is just as important for mono recordings... The most shockingly real sounding record I ever heard was an early RCA side by Jim Reeves. I can't remember the title, but it was early- before Four Walls- before Chet Atkins let Reeves croon softly directly into the mike. If you closed your eyes, the subtle differences in room reflection allowed you see the placement of each instrument in three dimensions. Really cool sound.

 I have a 1930s record by Joe Daniels and his Hotshots, a UK hot jazz dance band, where the clarinet runs out of the studio and down the hall to take a solo. He sounds all distant and dreamy. It really surprises you when he sneaks back into the room for the big finish.

 A friend of mine is recording at Sun Records in a month or two. It's the same room that Jerry Lee Lewis, Roy Orbison and Elvis Presley recorded in. He has heard other modern recordings made in the same room, and they don't have that immediate presence of the old 50s Sun records. So he looked up the guy who engineered for Sun and asked him to draw a diagram of the placement of the musicians in the room, and where the monitors were placed. It's not at all how one would expect it to be set up. He's going to set the room up exactly the way this guy described it. Sun Records even has the same piano used in all the sessions with a burn mark on a key in the lowest register where Jerry Lee would rest his grit. That's authenticity you can't fake!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Even in an optimized room, every brand speaker does not sound the same!
 Those speakers are made with a certain sound a theory in mind! The sound the DESIGNER thinks is best.

 I still state that if experts, like the musicians, can't decide wich speaker is closest to the real instrument, then we never gonna be able to end this discussion! Everybody hears differently and has a different perception of how instruments should sound! maybe because of the differences in hearing?! We all know that nothing in nature is the same...

 Nice story, i happen to know that the first Elvis recordings were made with tube equipment, i bet that equipment is replaced now by solid state?! There you have your other sound. I won't deny that carefully placing musicians in a room won't effect sound. As a matter affect, RCA made the early recordings and they all used RCA tube equipment. We all know, that tubes in that period sound much beter then modern produced tubes. NOS from that era fetch high prices!

 One other thing, if a recordroom is optimized, why do you have to carefully place the musicians in the first place? I thought the optimizations would prefend things like this and everything that should not in the record is canceled out that way! So, theoretically, in a well optimized room it doesn't matter where the musicians are situated!

 Ps.
 what does this mean?
 (sic) spelling? Well, i am not a native North American.

 P.P.s.
 i see you live in Hollywood, isn't that the place where they sell dreams?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







(sorry, just a little joke)


----------



## bigshot

Speakers are mechanical instruments. Just like every violin, classical guitar and oboe sound a little bit different, the same goes for speakers. Solid state equipment is very consistent. Every amp will sound pretty much like any other amp of the same model. When you put a speaker in a room, you have to make sure it's positioned in such a way that it performs well. You need to equalize its response to make the sound as balanced as possible. Once you do that, the sound of it can be very much like the sound of the instruments it's reproducing. If you're familiar with the sound of acoustic instruments, adjusting the equalization to make a speaker's response flat is a relatively simple thing. It isn't impossible by any means.

 Recording is much more complicated than playing back. You aren't just reproducing soundstage, you're creating it. The choice of microphone, the distance between the performer and the mike, the distance between the performer and the walls of the recording booth and other performers, the balance and placement of the instrument in the mix, and how it relates to the other instruments all around it... all of these things are creative choices by the sound engineer, and all of these choices can affect whether the mix has a natural presence or not. Sound mixing is an art, not a science. It's a matter of achieving a pleasing balance.

 The sound of Elvis's early recordings wasn't a result of tube equipment. It was a product of the old style ribbon microphones they used back then and how the engineer placed them in the room in relation with the musicians. My friend told me that the way they positioned the musicians in the old days was with the singer in the middle, and all of the instruments in a circle around him. It wasn't set up with drums at the back and guitars up front like on a stage. Putting the musians in a circle made them focus on each other, and reduced the need for high levels of volume in the monitors in the room. They basically performed for each other at a normal volume level. The distance of the singer from the wall gave the vocals a natural slapback echo in loud parts, and positioning the rhythm section in the corners of the room used the walls to project their sound towards the center. Pretty simple actually, but not intuitive. The only person facing the window and the engineers would have been the singer. Everyone else would be facing him.

 I apologize for harping on your spelling. I'm happy to explain basic audio production theory to you as long as you are willing to incorporate it.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Speakers are mechanical instruments. Just like every violin, classical guitar and oboe sound a little bit different, the same goes for speakers. Solid state equipment is very consistent. Every amp will sound pretty much like any other amp of the same model. When you put a speaker in a room, you have to make sure it's positioned in such a way that it performs well. You need to equalize its response to make the sound as balanced as possible. Once you do that, the sound of it can be very much like the sound of the instruments it's reproducing. If you're familiar with the sound of acoustic instruments, adjusting the equalization to make a speaker's response flat is a relatively simple thing. It isn't impossible by any means.

 Recording is much more complicated than playing back. You aren't just reproducing soundstage, you're creating it. The choice of microphone, the distance between the performer and the mike, the distance between the performer and the walls of the recording booth and other performers, the balance and placement of the instrument in the mix, and how it relates to the other instruments all around it... all of these things are creative choices by the sound engineer, and all of these choices can affect whether the mix has a natural presence or not. Sound mixing is an art, not a science. It's a matter of achieving a pleasing balance.

 The sound of Elvis's early recordings wasn't a result of tube equipment. It was a product of the old style ribbon microphones they used back then and how the engineer placed them in the room in relation with the musicians. My friend told me that the way they positioned the musicians in the old days was with the singer in the middle, and all of the instruments in a circle around him. It wasn't set up with drums at the back and guitars up front like on a stage. Putting the musians in a circle made them focus on each other, and reduced the need for high levels of volume in the monitors in the room. They basically performed for each other at a normal volume level. The distance of the singer from the wall gave the vocals a natural slapback echo in loud parts, and positioning the rhythm section in the corners of the room used the walls to project their sound towards the center. Pretty simple actually, but not intuitive. The only person facing the window and the engineers would have been the singer. Everyone else would be facing him.

 I apologize for harping on your spelling. I'm happy to explain basic audio production theory to you as long as you are willing to incorporate it.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Strange, the engineer that re-recorded his hits said that because of the RCA tube equipment it sounded so good!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Different engineers, different thoughts...

 The recordings do sound different though, i'll give ya that.

 NP, i am aware that i occassionally make errors in spelling. Even in my native language.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 However, if one person says that a cable gives their system "analogue warmth" and another person says the exact same cable made their system "more detailed with extended highs", we've got two completely different observations that don't seem to relate to each other. 
 

1. "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

 2. We are relying on people reporting on the sound they hear actually understanding the lingo and being able to effectively communicate about it. Not everyone can.

 3. You are assuming that everyone describes every cable in a random way. That's not true. Look at many of the reviews and bigger threads about certain cables, and through all the noise you can easily pick out some basic characteristics of that cable that most seem to agree on.

 4. Also, a cable can sound "more detailed with extended highs", to me even if it's actually "warm and analog" to you if my cable of reference is even warmer and less extended than the new one. If my reference is a super-dark cable, and I put in the only slightly brighter but still rellatively dark cable, it's going to sound quite extended to me and what I am used to. To you, with your super-bright, revealing reference cables, that same cable will sound dull and dark. So, two people hearing the exact same thing, drawing different conclusions based on different points of reference.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_When you put a speaker in a room, you have to make sure it's positioned in such a way that it performs well. You need to equalize its response to make the sound as balanced as possible. Once you do that, the sound of it can be very much like the sound of the instruments it's reproducing._

 

I can't help but to raise my hand with a comment regarding this as I've just gone through the process. And I do apologise (sort of) for being off-topic of the thread title. I certainly have not read all the posts in this thread (there'll be many more just like this).

 I moved a month ago, suffered for that month waiting for the delivery of a big bundle of cheap acoustical foam, which arrived yesterday. Initially, all plugged in, I felt I wasn't even listening to the same stereo system (ATC amp & speaker). Just ghastly, horrible, cringe worthy music! Due to WAF, I concocted the plan to adhere the foam to strong cardboard sections which can be put in places needed and removed easily. So...with a 3x5 foot piece behind my head, 4 bass buster types in the corners to my rear and a pair of L shaped pieces from the sides of the TV to around behind the speakers the result was stunning in a way that no cable, power cord or conditioner has been. Gorgeous, rich music with palpable soundstage. I love music again.

 I had planned that after the room was cured of it's deathly illness I'd evaluate anew my cables and cords by swapping out all these pricey Nordost lines for a hodge podge of assorted inexpensive stuff and hear which is worth keeping. 

 I do appreciate Big Shot/Steve's point of view on these matters. If my son were going out to purchase a stereo with his hard earned money and it amounted to a few thousand, I'd rather he go shopping with Steve than Patrick.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I can't help but to raise my hand with a comment regarding this as I've just gone through the process. And I do apologise (sort of) for being off-topic of the thread title. I certainly have not read all the posts in this thread (there'll be many more just like this).

 I moved a month ago, suffered for that month waiting for the delivery of a big bundle of cheap acoustical foam, which arrived yesterday. Initially, all plugged in, I felt I wasn't even listening to the same stereo system (ATC amp & speaker). Just ghastly, horrible, cringe worthy music! Due to WAF, I concocted the plan to adhere the foam to strong cardboard sections which can be put in places needed and removed easily. So...with a 3x5 foot piece behind my head, 4 bass buster types in the corners to my rear and a pair of L shaped pieces from the sides of the TV to around behind the speakers the result was stunning in a way that no cable, power cord or conditioner has been. Gorgeous, rich music with palpable soundstage. I love music again.

 I had planned that after the room was cured of it's deathly illness I'd evaluate anew my cables and cords by swapping out all these pricey Nordost lines for a hodge podge of assorted inexpensive stuff and hear which is worth keeping. 

 I do appreciate Big Shot/Steve's point of view on these matters. If my son were going out to purchase a stereo with his hard earned money and it amounted to a few thousand, I'd rather he go shopping with Steve than Patrick. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 However, headphones do not suffer from bad accoustics and are therefor better to hear small differences in equipment or cables.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_Even in an optimized room, every brand speaker does not sound the same!
 Those speakers are made with a certain sound a theory in mind! The sound the DESIGNER thinks is best.

 I still state that if experts, like the musicians, can't decide wich speaker is closest to the real instrument, then we never gonna be able to end this discussion! Everybody hears differently and has a different perception of how instruments should sound! maybe because of the differences in hearing?! We all know that nothing in nature is the same..._

 

You really believe this? Don't you think the designer will make the speakers sound like YOU imagine it to be right? At last, he wants to sell them to you and not to himself. That's the reason why audiophile speakers are seldom neutral. If you want a neutral system, buy a Klein&Hummel or something, and you're done. There's no such thing as a search for the holy grail of audio in real (studio) life.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_Nice story, i happen to know that the first Elvis recordings were made with tube equipment, i bet that equipment is replaced now by solid state?! There you have your other sound. I won't deny that carefully placing musicians in a room won't effect sound. As a matter affect, RCA made the early recordings and they all used RCA tube equipment. We all know, that tubes in that period sound much beter then modern produced tubes. NOS from that era fetch high prices!_

 

Here we go again with the most dependable criterion known to the "open-minded" hifi-hobbyist: Pricing.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_One other thing, if a recordroom is optimized, why do you have to carefully place the musicians in the first place? I thought the optimizations would prefend things like this and everything that should not in the record is canceled out that way! So, theoretically, in a well optimized room it doesn't matter where the musicians are situated!_

 

If this isn't an oath of audiophile disclousure, nothing is.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *patrick82* 
_Vocals aren't manufactured._

 

If you believe that the Vocals used in trance tracks are not editet to death, you're lost. Not to mention you do not even hear this. You surely know what a compressor is, don't you patrick?

 My deepest respect to bigshot. I wish i had this knowledge and especialy his patience.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_However, headphones do not suffer from bad accoustics and are therefor better to hear small differences in equipment or cables.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You're absolutely right about room acoustics and headphones and I thought of that as well during my post but tried to stay short ('n sweet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_You really believe this? Don't you think the designer will make the speakers sound like YOU imagine it to be right? At last, he wants to sell them to you and not to himself. That's the reason why audiophile speakers are seldom neutral. If you want a neutral system, buy a Klein&Hummel or something, and you're done. There's no such thing as a search for the holy grail of audio in real (studio) life.



 Here we go again with the most dependable criterion known to the "open-minded" hifi-hobbyist: Pricing.




 If this isn't an oath of audiophile disclousure, nothing is.



 If you believe that the Vocals used in trance tracks are not editet to death, you're lost. Not to mention you do not even hear this. You surely know what a compressor is, don't you patrick?

 My deepest respect to bigshot. I wish i had this knowledge and especialy his patience._

 

Serious, i use now NOS tubes in my tube amp, they sound considerably better then the stock tubes installed. Nothing to do with money; if i found it to sound the same or worse, i would sell the NOS tubes immediatly...and spend the money on more expensive cables.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_You're absolutely right about room acoustics and headphones and I thought of that as well during my post but tried to stay short ('n sweet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )._

 

maybe that's why users of headphone hear differences easier or more then users of speakers?! accoustics can easally cancel out small differences in any frequency...also, speakers are much further away from the listener, microdetails become harder to hear, or you must have a very expensive ultra revealing speaker. Headphones are very close to your ear, hence nothing gets lost, easier to dertermin small differences.

 I hear them, also in cables...

 But i am still very interested in why i hear differences and why others think it is impossible to hear it. No imagination though, the differences are persistent, changing cables get the same result over and over again...no placebo...and it can't be accoustics.....


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I do appreciate Big Shot/Steve's point of view on these matters. If my son were going out to purchase a stereo with his hard earned money and it amounted to a few thousand, I'd rather he go shopping with Steve than Patrick. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_My deepest respect to bigshot. I wish i had this knowledge and especialy his patience._

 

I can't say I've always agreed with everything Steve has said and I recall thinking him a bit too tight with the funds regarding vinyl playback. There may be other examples but I don't read here all that much. But my appreciation is of his refusal to be "taken in" by faulty logic.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* 
_We are relying on people reporting on the sound they hear_

 

And sometimes I can't rely upon my own opinion, such is the problem of music and audio equipment. Once when in a particular seriously no-nonsense frame of mind (is there another type of no-nonsense? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) I determined that the sonic benefits of vinyl (as per the modest table I had) were too subtle for me to tolerate and I sold the whole works. Then over the next 9 months I realized that I generally am not a seriously no-nonsense, cut-throat listener of music most of the time and lamented the loss of the subtle but real. I dove back into the vinyl world. 

 I guess I'm trying to say that I myself am a different listener at different times, with different tolerances for different degrees of subtleties......at different times. I'm more careful now in evaluation and that'll extend to cables and cords.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* 
_I can't say I've always agreed with everything Steve has said and I recall thinking him a bit too tight with the funds regarding vinyl playback. There may be other examples but I don't read here all that much. But my appreciation is of his refusal to be "taken in" by faulty logic.


 And sometimes I can't rely upon my own opinion, such is the problem of music and audio equipment. Once when in a particular seriously no-nonsense frame of mind (is there another type of no-nonsense? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) I determined that the sonic benefits of vinyl (as per the modest table I had) were too subtle for me to tolerate and I sold the whole works. Then over the next 9 months I realized that I generally am not a seriously no-nonsense, cut-throat listener of music most of the time and lamented the loss of the subtle but real. I dove back into the vinyl world. 

 I guess I'm trying to say that I myself am a different listener at different times, with different tolerances for different degrees of subtleties......at different times. I'm more careful now in evaluation and that'll extend to cables and cords._

 

That's why we listen to different kinds of music on certain days...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 By the way, not all sound engineers agree with bigshot, so his statements are also not carved in stone...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But they are noted.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_No imagination though...no placebo..._

 

For the nature of this forum you cannot affirm this one, as it's impossible for you to eliminate it.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_You really believe this? Don't you think the designer will make the speakers sound like YOU imagine it to be right? At last, he wants to sell them to you and not to himself. That's the reason why audiophile speakers are seldom neutral. If you want a neutral system, buy a Klein&Hummel or something, and you're done. There's no such thing as a search for the holy grail of audio in real (studio) life.



 Here we go again with the most dependable criterion known to the "open-minded" hifi-hobbyist: Pricing.




 If this isn't an oath of audiophile disclousure, nothing is.



 If you believe that the Vocals used in trance tracks are not editet to death, you're lost. Not to mention you do not even hear this. You surely know what a compressor is, don't you patrick?

 My deepest respect to bigshot. I wish i had this knowledge and especialy his patience._

 

First of all, big speaker companies hire people to listen to speakers and adjust them to their advice...they don't ask me if they make a speaker how i think it should sound!!!

 So, yes, they design speakers to their own philosy and tasts and hope more people like it like they do!

 That's why people don't like the same equipment, cables and speakers!

 You're right though about voices and even musical instrument, they all get tweaked during recordings...
 Do you know enya, her voice is constantly tweaked with alot of echo...some engineers try to be exact some try to be more creative with voices...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some people need tweaking of their voice...if you hear them live they don't sing as good as on a record/cd....tweaking in a studio can also do a lot of good.....


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_First of all, big speaker companies hire people to listen to speakers and adjust them to their advice...they don't ask me if they make a speaker how i think it should sound!!!

 So, yes, they design speakers to their own philosy and tasts and hope more people like it like they do!_

 


 In this case, it should be rather obvious that "YOU" refered to you as the customer.

 But wasn't it your point to say that thers a biiiiiig mystery about sound, so big even the speaker building companies don't rely on measurements but on the hearing of "experts"?
 Your argumentation is getting quite inconsistent, at least for my taste.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_maybe that's why users of headphone hear differences easier or more then users of speakers?! accoustics can easally cancel out small differences in any frequency...also, speakers are much further away from the listener, microdetails become harder to hear, or you must have a very expensive ultra revealing speaker. Headphones are very close to your ear, hence nothing gets lost, easier to dertermin small differences._

 

Depends on the items I guess. My ATC SCM35 speakers are revealing in a gentle easy to listen to manner but aren't very expensive at $4K (different companies offer different value for the dollar and IMHO ATC are champs) and they make my Sennheiser HD600's sound plain silly. Detail, resolution, dynamics, richness, you name it, the 600's get thumped.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_I hear them, also in cables...

 But i am still very interested in why i hear differences and why others think it is impossible to hear it. No imagination though, the differences are persistent, changing cables get the same result over and over again...no placebo...and it can't be accoustics.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Later when I re-examine my cables it'll be only for myself. There certainly isn't any chance whatsoever of affecting anyone elses opinion! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So why bother. 

 I will say I've accidently blind tested myself by being mixed up as to which cable I was listening through and heard very much what I expected to hear. Then came the revelation. D'oh!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyhow, the worth of any item will be an entirely personal value judgement.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_In this case, it should be rather obvious that "YOU" refered to you as the customer.

 But wasn't it your point to say that thers a biiiiiig mystery about sound, so big even the speaker building companies don't rely on measurements but on the hearing of "experts"?
 Your argumentation is getting quite inconsistent, at least for my taste._

 

I am still saying that; the final tweaking is done by experts who listen to the speakers and tell the company how to tweak them, so it sounds right according to them. So, yes, the final tweaks are done by ear, not measuring instruments, that is, if you rule out ears as a measuring instrument in the first place.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_However, headphones do not suffer from bad accoustics and are therefor better to hear small differences in equipment or cables.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Headphones don't have room acoustic problems, but they also don't have any of the benefits of good room acoustics either. Headphones are OK for casual listening when you don't want to bother other people, but they don't hold a candle to good speaker setups. It's like looking at a vast panorama through a window or looking at it through coke bottle glasses.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Riboge

Among many larger annoying things about this thread, which is more like a re-enactment of The Fight Club than it is an intellectual discussion, is the misuse of the word "placebo." It is taken into English from the latin verb meaning "I will please (you)." or more losely "I will be meet your requirement or need" as in to _placate_ someone, derived from the same root. It is a medical term first of all. As well known it refers to wishes and expectations eliciting positive effects from treatments not related to the physiological effects of the treatment. It is invariably a temporary effect. What is being referred to here and elsewhere on head-fi does not or may not have any of these characteristics.

 The effects posited here are belief-influenced colorations or distortions (including but not limited to enhancements). Ironically, the adjective I can think of that comes closest to a single word for it in English is "dogmatic".
 The effect claimed to be involved in cable discrimination could be defined as the excess of certain psychological factors in the overall perception of the sound. These include convictions and beliefs, unconscious meanings of sound and music, et al. Other factors are state of the organs involved, physiology, other motivations, training, expectations, setting, et al.

 Is the 'dogmatic' perception effect 1) that believers add difference from within or that 2) that skeptics delete differences from within or is it both? The perceived differences are usually persisting and not always positive. Some have claimed it is always the result of wanting more expensive cables to be worth the greater expenditure, but that is not at all clearly always the case from what has been reported here--that is, if the effect is 'in' the believers. It could just as well be a phenomenon of skeptics who don't want to experience the difference in order to save money or feel better about not having it and/or to get something for nothing (equal cables for less), scoff at believers or whatever. That is, it could be any of these if there is such a thing at all.


----------



## bigshot

If you find this thread annoying, there's no reason you have to follow it. Feel free to read threads that are more pleasant for you. You can rest assured that those of us participating in it are not annoyed. (At least I'm not...)

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_If you believe that the Vocals used in trance tracks are not editet to death, you're lost. Not to mention you do not even hear this. You surely know what a compressor is, don't you patrick?_

 

Vocals are edited but not manufactured from scratch. I choose the albums that have the cleanest vocals.

 What is a compressor?


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_My deepest respect to bigshot. I wish i had this knowledge and especialy his patience._

 

Imagine when he realizes it was all a waste and cables make a difference.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_For the nature of this forum you cannot affirm this one, as it's impossible for you to eliminate it._

 

If it is possible to eliminate emotion, wouldn't it be possible to eliminate placebo as well?


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Headphones are OK for casual listening when you don't want to bother other people, but they don't hold a candle to good speaker setups. It's like looking at a vast panorama through a window or looking at it through coke bottle glasses.
_

 

That's your opinion, and one that is not universally shared, at least in terms of the magnitude of the differences between headphones and speakers. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, but it is only an opinion or value judgment, and other others assess the differences differently or have different preferences.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_
 My deepest respect to bigshot. I wish i had this knowledge and especialy his patience._

 

Yes, Steve is very knowledgeable and indeed is quite patient.

 However, there are several folks on this forum who also deserve some kudos for their various posts on these issues, which generally are insightful, and effective at dealing with some of the illogic, misinformation, and categorical judgments that emanate from certain quarters. A non-exclusive list would include Jazz, markl, and Riboge. They elevate the debate in almost all instances. Keep up the good work everyone; it's a fun read (most of the time).


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_That's your opinion, and one that is not universally shared, at least in terms of the magnitude of the differences between headphones and speakers._

 

You won't find a single engineer who uses cans when he isn't recording. They're a necessary evil used to prevent spill feeding back into the mike when you record, but they are never used for monitoring a mix because they don't have as balanced a presentation as speakers, particularly when it comes to high and low frequencies and dynamics. You might like the coloration and distortion headphones add to sound, but that doesn't make them more accurate than speakers.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* 
_A non-exclusive list would include Jazz, markl, and Riboge. They elevate the debate in almost all instances._

 

You forgot Patrick and Tourmaline!

 Hooray for everyone! Group hug time!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_You won't find a single engineer who uses cans when he isn't recording. They're a necessary evil used to prevent spill feeding back into the mike when you record, but they are never used for monitoring a mix because they don't have as balanced a presentation as speakers, particularly when it comes to high and low frequencies and dynamics. You might like the coloration and distortion headphones add to sound, but that doesn't make them more accurate than speakers.
_

 

LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 "a necessary evil" "the coloration and distortion headphones add to the sound" You're unbelievable. This is "Head-Fi" ya know, a forum that is "generally geared for headphone high fidelity enthusiasts." 

 P.S. I never said they were more accurate than speakers and I don't think anyone else said that on this thread. I just don't think headphones suck and that listening to them is like looking through coke bottle glasses. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Again, however, it's a matter of personal preference and idiosyncracies, but since only yours count, I submit.


----------



## JohnFerrier

Except for maybe binaurals, recordings aren't made specifically for headphone listening with complete left/right channel seperation. Headphone listeners have to cope with a largely distorted stereo image.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_If you find this thread annoying, there's no reason you have to follow it. Feel free to read threads that are more pleasant for you. You can rest assured that those of us participating in it are not annoyed. (At least I'm not...)

 See ya
 Steve_

 

And yet you wrote this to be annoying, clearly, in what you say and by pointedly focusing an an initial aside and ignoring the body of what I offered. Do you understand it at all, and are you going to consider that you might have a negatively biased type of perception much as you wish others to consider their possible positive bias? Those are rhetorical questions BTW, I have no desire for the kind of responses you offer. For example:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_ they don't have as balanced a presentation as speakers, particularly when it comes to high and low frequencies and dynamics. You might like the coloration and distortion headphones add to sound, but that doesn't make them more accurate than speakers.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

The claim you are distorting and thus not really responding to was that finer detail and the like might be better perceived with headphones which thus might serve better for discerning subtle differences among cables, not that they were "more accurate" in every way. I happen to agree with your saying speakers, or at least the better ones, all in all have a more balanced presentation. You make even agreeing with you difficult and annoying.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_And yet you wrote this to be annoying, clearly, in what you say and by pointedly focusing an an initial aside and ignoring the body of what I offered. Do you understand it at all, and are you going to consider that you might have a negatively biased type of perception much as you wish others to consider their possible positive bias? Those are rhetorical questions BTW, I have no desire for the kind of responses you offer._

 

Then you're speaking entirely for your own benefit?

 Read no further, lest you be further annoyed...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_The claim you are distorting and thus not really responding to was that finer detail and the like might be better perceived with headphones which thus might serve better for discerning subtle differences among cables, not that they were "more accurate" in every way. I happen to agree with your saying speakers, or at least the better ones, all in all have a more balanced presentation._

 

Headphones are good for listening to the noise in a recording. I use them for declicking 78s. But there's no noise in cables to hear. If you can't measure significant differences with an oscilloscope, people who claim to hear a difference can't even agree on what kind of difference it makes, and the forbidden letters don't indicate that there's a difference, using headphones to listen for differences isn't going to help.

 Balance is the most important aspect of sound reproduction, and it's one of the least discussed topics around this forum. A lot of people say that their equipment has flat response as if it's a bad thing!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Then you're speaking entirely for your own benefit?

 Read no further, lest you be further annoyed...



 Headphones are good for listening to the noise in a recording. I use them for declicking 78s. But there's no noise in cables to hear. If you can't measure significant differences with an oscilloscope, people who claim to hear a difference can't even agree on what kind of difference it makes, and the forbidden letters don't indicate that there's a difference, using headphones to listen for differences isn't going to help.

 Balance is the most important aspect of sound reproduction, and it's one of the least discussed topics around this forum. A lot of people say that their equipment has flat response as if it's a bad thing!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Clearly I meant rhetorical with respect to you who are the only party addressed in those most recent questions expressed for others to witness. Again you tendenciously misunderstand just to be a smart ass.

 And yes, the rest of your response is no more responsive to what was actually claimed about headphone audibility of fine detail than the first time. You just reinterate your unsubstantiated initial assertion that there's no detail to hear adding a further unsubstantiated and actually logically impossible claim "they don't agree on what kind of difference" since you don't know all of the them and can't conceivably have information about what they did or didn't agree on on all occasions. It has yet to be demonstrated whether or not a test panel could agree under the correct circumstances.

 Thus you prove again what I said about the worth of your responses and make me feel foolish in responding again (your purpose? Your feeling appropriately foolish would be good for all of us.). It won't happen again.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* 
_For the nature of this forum you cannot affirm this one, as it's impossible for you to eliminate it._

 

neither can you prove it.
 Imho, a useles discussion.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Headphones don't have room acoustic problems, but they also don't have any of the benefits of good room acoustics either. Headphones are OK for casual listening when you don't want to bother other people, but they don't hold a candle to good speaker setups. It's like looking at a vast panorama through a window or looking at it through coke bottle glasses.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Yup, heard several awesome speaker setups. However, to reach alevel of detail a headphone can give ya, you need to spend serious amounts of money to equal or surpass that.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Then you're speaking entirely for your own benefit?

 Read no further, lest you be further annoyed...



 Headphones are good for listening to the noise in a recording. I use them for declicking 78s. But there's no noise in cables to hear. If you can't measure significant differences with an oscilloscope, people who claim to hear a difference can't even agree on what kind of difference it makes, and the forbidden letters don't indicate that there's a difference, using headphones to listen for differences isn't going to help.

 Balance is the most important aspect of sound reproduction, and it's one of the least discussed topics around this forum. A lot of people say that their equipment has flat response as if it's a bad thing!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

maybe because flat responce is linked to dry, dull and lifeless sounding systems?!


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_You forgot Patrick and Tourmaline!

 Hooray for everyone! Group hug time!

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Big hug......


----------



## steaxauce

Could someone link me to some technical documents describing the benefits of different designs of power cables? I've never seen one. In fact, I've never seen technical documents describing the benefits of any type of cable, anywhere in the system. Engineering papers about anything like this would be great.

 I didn't read the whole thread, but I saw someone say that oscilloscopes couldn't pick up any distortion caused by power cords. What about other types of cables? If an oscilloscope can't pick up any distortion that does exist, it certainly won't be audible, right?

 Main purpose of this post is to get links to engineering papers.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* 
_a further unsubstantiated and actually logically impossible claim "they don't agree on what kind of difference" since you don't know all of the them and can't conceivably have information about what they did or didn't agree on on all occasions. It has yet to be demonstrated whether or not a test panel could agree under the correct circumstances._

 

I was just working off of Phil's comments about Edwood's test. He said that the results were inconclusive because Edwood asked the test subjects to identify the three types of cables when there isn't any agreement among cable believers as to just what the sound of those three types of cables are.

 If there *is* concensus, then why weren't the test subjects able to identify the three types of cables more accurately than random chance?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_Yup, heard several awesome speaker setups. However, to reach alevel of detail a headphone can give ya, you need to spend serious amounts of money to equal or surpass that._

 

Detail is just one aspect of sound reproduction, and it requires balancing against the main body of the sound just like any other aspect. More of any one thing isn't good. A balance of all aspects is what makes for present and realistic sound. Good speakers in the proper environment present a balanced presentation much better than any headphones.

 Of course, if you are going for an unrealistic reproduction because that's your personal taste, that's fine for you. It doesn't apply to anyone else who might have different tastes though.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_maybe because flat responce is linked to dry, dull and lifeless sounding systems?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That is exactly the incorrect assumption that I was referring to. Do some googling on frequency response and find out what flat response really means.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *steaxauce* 
_Could someone link me to some technical documents describing the benefits of different designs of power cables? I've never seen one. In fact, I've never seen technical documents describing the benefits of any type of cable, anywhere in the system. Engineering papers about anything like this would be great._

 

Here is a link to the site of the former Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Labs that someone linked to earlier...

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 Hope this helps
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Here is a link to the site of the former Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Labs that someone linked to earlier...

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 Hope this helps
 Steve_

 

I have lost count how many times skeptics have linked to that page. People believe what they want to believe. For some reason they believe what is written on a website by some old "wise" man with tin ears, instead of trying to find out the truth by themselves. Insert the word "Truth" into a website and skeptics are all over that place. See roger russel and Audioholics.

 Nobody should believe anything that is written down...actually I don't believe what I am writing right now! Everytime I compare cables I do it fresh without being biased, and EVERYTIME I hear the same differences when looking at my logs. It doesn't get more accurate than that. How can people deny the truth? They don't want to believe, that's why. Who's having the placebo? The ones who believe or the ones who refuse to believe?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Nobody should believe anything that is written down...actually I don't believe what I am writing right now!_

 

You are the king of unintended irony. I salute you and step back to let you continue about your merry way. Enjoy the incomprehensible spectacle that life presents you! I got my answer.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_You are the king of unintended irony. I salute you and step back to let you continue about your merry way. Enjoy the incomprehensible spectacle that life presents you! I got my answer._

 

Yes, and you believe what you say? How can you know it will always be the truth if you can't learn new information and make new conclusions? Just because something made sense 100 years ago doesn't mean it still makes sense with the new knowledge.
_"If you don't contradict yourself you are narrow minded."_

 The only thing I haven't contradicted myself about are my impressions of my tweaks, they stay the same, and they are also the same for others who have tried them.


----------



## NotJeffBuckley

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Yes, and you believe what you say? How can you know it will always be the truth if you can't learn new information and make new conclusions? Just because something made sense 100 years ago doesn't mean it still makes sense with the new knowledge.
"If you don't contradict yourself you are narrow minded."

 The only thing I haven't contradicted myself about are my impressions of my tweaks, they stay the same, and they are also the same for others who have tried them._

 

Patrick, you keep quoting yourself as though you're some kind of wise master yourself, but your statement there is totally irrational and completely unfounded. If you contradict yourself, you're inconsistent and incapable of holding a rational viewpoint regarding the issue at hand. Do not borrow epistemological terms and then try to debase epistemology through their excercise.

 The "new knowledge" in no way contradicts the "old knowledge" on the subject of audio. Small-t theorists hawking overpriced strands of metal spout a lot of highly, highly dubious information regarding audio transmission without even attempting to back up their claims because they're aware of the audio expectancy effect and its well-documented effects on listening enjoyment. If it pleases you to hear a difference that cannot be detected with devices more sensitive than the sharpest human ears around, continue to do so. Some cables even measure infatismally better than others, so you've got some kind of basis to work on. Problem is, expensive does not mean better in every case, and bling-factor is more present in headphone audio than in nearly any other "niche" field, for reasons ostensible and otherwise.

 I appreciate Jazz's perspective because he seems to understand that it is important to ground subjective impressions in objective reality, and focuses on genuine differences (though sometimes smaller than ought to be detectable, to human acoustic understanding, differences nonetheless). I do not understand, and no amount of reading of this sort of thread has given me perspective to understand, the complete lack of barriers to BS in high end audio.

 By the way, I've finalized my Karma Nuggets. They may appear to be spray-painted, stale and/or festering Burger King chicken nuggets, but if you allow them to sit between your sofa's cushions it will aromatically improve the audio transmissivity of the room. Any takers?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_That is exactly the incorrect assumption that I was referring to. Do some googling on frequency response and find out what flat response really means.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

it really means dull, flat sounding sound.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NotJeffBuckley* 
_Patrick, you keep quoting yourself as though you're some kind of wise master yourself, but your statement there is totally irrational and completely unfounded._

 

"I quote myself because there is nobody else worth quoting"

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NotJeffBuckley* 
_If you contradict yourself, you're inconsistent and incapable of holding a rational viewpoint regarding the issue at hand. Do not borrow epistemological terms and then try to debase epistemology through their excercise._

 

Keeping the same viewpoint and sticking to it is narrow minded. If you are a skeptic your whole life without even touching a cable, then how can it be rational?
 I touch cables every day and I still don't believe until I listen to them.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NotJeffBuckley* 
_If it pleases you to hear a difference that cannot be detected with devices more sensitive than the sharpest human ears around, continue to do so._

 

The devices don't perceive the sound the same way as human ears do.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NotJeffBuckley* 
_Some cables even measure infatismally better than others, so you've got some kind of basis to work on. Problem is, expensive does not mean better in every case, and bling-factor is more present in headphone audio than in nearly any other "niche" field, for reasons ostensible and otherwise._

 

Ok, so you agree there are differences between cables?

 Which expensive cables have you tried that were worse than cheap cables?


----------



## GASTAN

and yet, I thought it means "analytical"






 --G


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GASTAN* 
_and yet, I thought it means "analytical"





 --G_

 

Same thing.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As Mr. Bigshot himself stated: flat frequency responce may not sound good, hence they use a less flat frequency responce to make it sound more pleasing.


----------



## GASTAN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_hence they use a less flat frequency responce to make it sound more pleasing.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

u mean like colouring ?
 Is that what Sennheiser did with my HD650, so they sound more musical ?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Just because something made sense 100 years ago doesn't mean it still makes sense with the new knowledge._

 

Sorry, Patrick. You don't know what you're talking about. I provided links to you to help you understand and you didn't bother to look at them. I'm not the one that isn't listening. If you aren't going to engage in a two way conversation, there's not much point conversing with you.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_it really means dull, flat sounding sound._

 

I provided you with a clue too. Sorry to find out that you aren't willing to carry on a two way conversation either. Go sit with Patrick. You two will get along fine.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Sorry, Patrick. You don't know what you're talking about. I provided links to you to help you understand and you didn't bother to look at them. I'm not the one that isn't listening. If you aren't going to engage in a two way conversation, there's not much point conversing with you._

 

Ok, so Earth is flat because it was what made sense thousands of years ago?

 How can you make progress if you think you already know everything and don't bother experimenting?


----------



## NotJeffBuckley

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_Ok, so Earth is flat because it was what made sense thousands of years ago?

 How can you make progress if you think you already know everything and don't bother experimenting?_

 

Patrick, the earth is now known to be not-flat through the excercise of reason, deductive and inductive logic, and scientific examination, the same practices which defy the concept of a power cable to influence the audio signal over any other power cable. Solipsistic skepticism is what you're practicing, and it's an odd combination, but if you have the money and it works for you I will not criticise your decisions directly... The folks who thought the earth was flat had more in common with the _edit: more radical, not all_ subjectivist position in audio than that of objectivists 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, as a humanitarian, I feel I have to make a request of you. Please, I beg of you, don't use the same reasoning you're using for audio to try to find out if things under the sink are drinkable! Trust the scientists on this one, no matter how skeptical of their claims of toxicity you may be!


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_I provided you with a clue too. Sorry to find out that you aren't willing to carry on a two way conversation either. Go sit with Patrick. You two will get along fine.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I am clueless in seatlle.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 You said yourself that they tweaked speakers who had a flat responce so they sounded a bit more appealing. You're stories don't get consistant.


----------



## shplorgh

Do you people have lives or do you just argue with mental patients over the internet all day?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hungrych* 
_Do you people have lives or do you just argue with mental patients over the internet all day?_

 

kinda..keeps ya mentally fit.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NotJeffBuckley* 
_Patrick, the earth is now known to be not-flat through the excercise of reason, deductive and inductive logic, and scientific examination, the same practices which defy the concept of a power cable to influence the audio signal over any other power cable. Solipsistic skepticism is what you're practicing, and it's an odd combination, but if you have the money and it works for you I will not criticise your decisions directly... The folks who thought the earth was flat had more in common with the edit: more radical, not all subjectivist position in audio than that of objectivists 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, as a humanitarian, I feel I have to make a request of you. Please, I beg of you, don't use the same reasoning you're using for audio to try to find out if things under the sink are drinkable! Trust the scientists on this one, no matter how skeptical of their claims of toxicity you may be!_

 

Science doen't know everything. Somethimes scientists are doing things the waythey do cuase they don't know what they are doing...


----------



## Aman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hungrych* 
_Do you people have lives or do you just argue with mental patients over the internet all day?_

 

This guy makes me feel a lot better about myself...


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NotJeffBuckley* 
_Patrick, the earth is now known to be not-flat through the excercise of reason, deductive and inductive logic, and scientific examination, the same practices which defy the concept of a power cable to influence the audio signal over any other power cable._

 

How can anyone be sure that the logic is true now if they thought it was true before and it wasn't?
 It's like saying that science didn't know everything yesterday but today science knows everything. Don't you think that's a narrow minded way of thought?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* 
_You said yourself that they tweaked speakers who had a flat responce so they sounded a bit more appealing._

 

Go back and read it again. You misunderstood what I was saying. And while you're at it, see if you can figure out what "flat response" really means. When you've done that, then we can continue.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Zenja

If you guys think that science has everything figured out and everything that doesn't fit fully with mainstream thought is wrong, you're totally wrong. I remind you that science is to explain things that we observe, not the other way around.

 How many people do you think are out there doing real research about how expensive cables that some of these companies make affect the sound of expensive audio drivers?

 I don't even get what a lot of you are trying to argue. Until you've tried the cables that Patrick has tried with similar equipment, you're in no position to confirm nor deny what he's saying. The only reason most people buy things like headphone amps is because there are enough people saying that they make a difference. There's very few people that have tried very expensive power cords (and there's a good reason for that too), so now it's easy to just blindly say you don't believe it.

 I'm not saying I believe it or not either, but you can't strongly deny what he's saying.


----------



## NotJeffBuckley

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* 
_How can anyone be sure that the logic is true now if they thought it was true before and it wasn't?
 It's like saying that science didn't know everything yesterday but today science knows everything. Don't you think that's a narrow minded way of thought?_

 

Boy, Patrick, that's a really easy position to argue against, and it helps keep crows out of the fields (in other words, huge strawman fallacy).

 Science, abstractly, is inherently progressive, but we're not even talking about science with a big S, just the particular science of audio signal transmission over wires (and in this specific case, how the wire used to connect your device to your wall and its trail of lowest bid miles and miles of wire could improve sound quality a few steps removed from that), a field in which there are few if any large, hanging questions.

 If power cords can improve the sensitivity and clarity of a signal, then why aren't $2000+ power cords used in delivering current to devices which rely on vastly more precision than audio? Audio relies on frequencies from ~20 to ~20,000 hertz, though some claim that supersonics (frequencies up to around 70-80khz, in usual parlance) can enhance the experience - whichever your view, there are signals which are transmitted with orders of magnitude more sensitivity and run without detectable error from perfectly normal power cables. The unfounded claims of manufacturers and the, uh, "creative" hypotheses of buyers don't answer this, which is strange considering it challenges the legitimacy of those claims and in so doing ought to be easy to answer if the claims are legit.

 Edit: *I want to clarify that I am not against the possiblity, I am just inherently skeptical of radical claims without a demonstrated basis. If it could be demonstrated objectively, why is it not? That would sell more product than any claims.*


----------



## Tuarreg

Check this out. Very interesting.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2004.html

 Tuarreg


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Tuarreg* 
_Check this out. Very interesting.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2004.html

 Tuarreg_

 

The most complex music got the highest score: 80%. That's proof enough that cables make a difference.
 Skeptics like to ignore that though, like with everything else.


----------



## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* 
_Here is my advice... Don't waste time and money on cables. Spend your money on great speakers, a good amp and an average CD player. Take the money you save and buy lots and lots of great music. I'm always happy to provide recommendations to anyone interested in the areas of music I've explored. A lot of serious collectors took the time to share their knowledge with me, and I'm happy to pass the favor along._

 

QFT. IMO.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


 and perhaps of greatest significance, the time it took to switch cords was longer than the generally accepted 5 second length of human auditory memory. This reduced what Manny terms “the differential sharpness of perception” of participants. 
 

That's probably why people hear easier differences in their own home envirement when they are releaxed, sitting in the sweet spot and have more time to evaluate things.

 I agree with patrick that better cables portray complex music with way more ease and detail.

 Also, they are very positive about the Nordost valhalla.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (wich doesn't surpise me).


----------



## markl

.


----------



## DanG

In case it isn't clear to anyone yet, religious and political discussion is not allowed _anywhere_ on Head-Fi, not just in the Members' Lounge. This forum is for cables, right? Bringing religion or politics into it just gets people upset and is offensive to some... so let's just try to keep the discussion on topic, okay?


----------



## JahJahBinks

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Formula 1 driver driving 100 mph in city street is safer than old woman driving 20 mph._

 


 I have to quote this one myself.


----------



## PIratelord

I think for the OP, the best way is still to try for yourself, especially for sensitive topics like this. Equipments at different levels benefits differently from power cables in my experience. People with different hearing/experience/knowledge/opinion argue differently as well. IMHO, it's not nice to either tell others what to do or make strong and definite argument on topics like this. Trying to stop or discouraging someone from trying things is as irresponsible as persuading him/her to do so. I personally don't like people who keep talking about physics here. If someone really care about science you should understand that the most subjective way to share your comment is by sharing your own experience, not your belief. Why so sure about how physics would behave before you understand ALL of them? Basing on the fact that "only knowledge known to you is correct" is not itself a correct way of thinking. In fact this should also be true even if you already know ALL the physics known to human. Before electricity was invented, none of your gears could be explained by physics. 
   
   
  Just realised the last post was made on 2006........................


----------



## googleborg

owned


----------



## JerryLove

Quote: 





piratelord said:


> I think for the OP, the best way is still to try for yourself, especially for sensitive topics like this. Equipments at different levels benefits differently from power cables in my experience. People with different hearing/experience/knowledge/opinion argue differently as well. IMHO, it's not nice to either tell others what to do or make strong and definite argument on topics like this. Trying to stop or discouraging someone from trying things is as irresponsible as persuading him/her to do so. I personally don't like people who keep talking about physics here. If someone really care about science you should understand that the most subjective way to share your comment is by sharing your own experience, not your belief. Why so sure about how physics would behave before you understand ALL of them? Basing on the fact that "only knowledge known to you is correct" is not itself a correct way of thinking. In fact this should also be true even if you already know ALL the physics known to human. Before electricity was invented, none of your gears could be explained by physics.


 
   
  Yea. Like when someone asks if painting the volume dial on his amplifier brown will make the sound more chocolatey. All these "experts" come on talking about how the color of the gain control has no effect on the sound, and bringing up all this "physics" junk about how the outside of the gain control isn't even in the signal path. It's not nice to either tell others what to do or make strong and definite argument on topics like this.
   
  You know, before the sun was invented, people couldn't explain why it was light outside (BTW: electricity was not invented and more than the sun was); and if a poster cannot explain the exact composition of dark matter, then he doesn't know all of physics and has no place commenting on whether the color of a gain control knob effects the sound of an amp.


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





jerrylove said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Please forgive the faulty word used. Change the "invent" into discovered if that makes my point stronger please and thank you for your help. 
   
  I actually couldn't agree more with your idea. But I think it's still not time yet to discuss that until:
  1, We know how to distinguish a certain type of sound is chocolatey or strawberry-like with a touch of orange flavour.
  2, Somebody or some companies start painting the volume dial of an amp to make money
  3, Someone is willing to pay for it because he/she hears a difference/improvement. 
   
  If the 3 above do happen, you can then post your view to make a really good argument. Otherwise, I am afraid it's a bit irrelevant to talk about. 
   
  BTW, I am quite certain though by making the whole case of a CD transport transparent, it should sound different. Amp might not be a good place to start your research if you are indeed interested, especially the volume knob.


----------



## IPodPJ

There is a company called Silver Rock who sells a $480 wooden volume knob and claims it makes a difference, so there are companies who do that.
   

   
  "Silver Rock Signature Knob $480.00

 Good vibrations, Bad vibrations it?s all about vibrations!! RAM would like
 to introduce a new signature level knob developed for the mighty Silver
 Rock potentiometer. The standard bakelite knob is certainly the best
 sounding compromise... but now Audio Consulting has taken this aspect of
 the Silver Rock much further. The new knobs are custom made with beech
 wood and bronze where the bronze is used as the insert to mount to the
 stem of the volume pot. The beech wood is coated several times with C37
 lacquer for best sound as pointed out by Dieter Ennemoser. How can this
 make a difference??? Well, hearing is believing as we always say. The
 sound becomes much more open and free flowing with a nice improvement in
 resolution. Dynamics are better and overall naturalness is improved. Here
 is a test for all you Silver Rock owners. Try removing the bakelite knobs
 and listen. You will be shocked by this! The signature knobs will have an
 even greater effect?really amazing! The point here is the micro vibrations
 created by the volume pots and knobs find their way into the delicate
 signal path and cause degradation (Bad vibrations equal bad sound). With
 the signature knobs micro vibrations from the C37 concept of wood, bronze
 and the lacquer itself compensate for the volume pots and provide (Good
 Vibrations) our ear/brain combination like to hear?way better sound!!

 Knobs can easily be installed on all versions of the Silver Rock potentiometer."
   
   
  Or you could spend your evening reading this:
   
  http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina5.htm
   
  This product even claims as its selling point it's all in your head:
   
  http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina47.htm


----------



## PIratelord

That sounds interesting. Nothing I can say about however because I have not tried it. 
   
  A post like this simply ask for suggestions, I think it's pretty simple matter:
  If I hear a difference, I say I hear a difference, explain what I heard and I respect people who doesn't. 
  If I don't hear a difference, I say I don't and I respect people who does. 
  I don't count on my limited knowledge to tell the world that my judgement is definitely correct and try to make everyone else to think the same way. 
  I don't think that people who share different opinions are either idiot, liar, or hypocrite etc.
  I do not tell others that it is impossible AT ALL that someone hears a difference and/which imply that if he claimed that he did, he must be either an idiot, liar, or hypocrite etc. AND I do not like people who does this. 
   
   
  These are the points I was trying to make.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





piratelord said:


> That sounds interesting. Nothing I can say about however because I have not tried it.
> 
> A post like this simply ask for suggestions, I think it's pretty simple matter:
> If I hear a difference, I say I hear a difference, explain what I heard and I respect people who doesn't.
> ...


 


 It sounds interesting?  Yes, from the description it certainly sounds that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Now to how it ACTUALLY sounds, I wouldn't know because I would never buy one.


----------



## JerryLove

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *PIratelord* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Please forgive the faulty word used. Change the "invent" into discovered if that makes my point stronger please and thank you for your help.
> 
> ...


 

 So something isn't true until a company produces a product claiming it is true? Fortunately: someone did indeed make a wooden knob (above).
   
  So there's a company in elbonia which is selling brown paint for volume knobs which make the sound more chocolatey. Hey, you can't prove there isn't. Can you say that they are wrong without doing exactly what you dismiss others doing on principle? Are you ready to say that painting your volume knob brown *might* change the sound?
   
  Seriously. Let me repeat the question. Do you assert, having not listened, that painting the front of your volume knob brown will have no effect on sound; or do you assert that you believe it is possible that painting your volume knob brown will change the sound?


----------



## IPodPJ

Painting the knob will have no effect on the sound, unless you THINK it will.


----------



## JerryLove

Quote:


ipodpj said:


> Painting the knob will have no effect on the sound, unless you THINK it will.


 

 I agree with you, but I am curious what PirateLord will say.
   
  Will he refuse to conclude that putting paint on a volume knob will not affect sound (thus looking a little silly for denying the obvious), or will he assert, having never heard, that paint will not change the sound: thus trusting basic science in direct violation of his own earlier assertions?
   
  My point being, of course, is to establish that we can indeed make absolute claims about sound, at least in some instances, without having to actually listen first.


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





jerrylove said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I didn't say it WAS NOT TRUE until a company produces it, I said it's IRRELEVANT TO TALK ABOUT. Please read patiently. 
   
  I don't assert that painting the front of my volume knob will have no effect on sound. Do you? You certainly can assert that it is or isn't the case on your amp, but how can you be sure what mine is made of? 
   
  Furthermore, why does it have to be my volume knob? Can it be someone else? How do you know there's no such design that the company deliberately made the sound sensitive to the colour of its volume knob? Like putting a light sensor there which is connected to god know what circuits in the equipment. I am not an expert in electrical theory but I am quite sure if some experts deliberately want to make the sound of an amp sensitive to the colour of it's volume knob, it is possible. How can you prove there isn't anyone doing that, as you asked? 
   
  It's the same that an expensive power cable might not effect the sound in a particular system, but you can never prove that it doesn't perform in every single one. 
   
  1+1=2 is scientifically pretty difficult to prove. Can you prove it? Can you conclude that it is DEFINITELY true? If you can, you might well become one of the greatest mathematicians in this century. 
   
  Again, as I said, they are IRRELEVANT TO TALK ABOUT. You still have not proved anything relating to the topic of power cables either.


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





jerrylove said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> ipodpj said:
> ...


 
   
  First of all, your point being, if I refuse to conclude what you reckon, I look a little silly. Hmmmm....

 The best proof is always the facts, not belief.
  And there is a huge gap between OBVIOUS and TRUE.


----------



## JerryLove

Quote:


piratelord said:


> I didn't say it WAS NOT TRUE until a company produces it, I said it's IRRELEVANT TO TALK ABOUT. Please read patiently.
> I don't assert that painting the front of my volume knob will have no effect on sound. Do you? You certainly can assert that it is or isn't the case on your amp, but how can you be sure what mine is made of?


 

 I just wanted to make sure we all understood your position. You believe that it's possible that painting the front of a volume knob will affect the sound coming out of a speaker / headphone.
   
  With that out in the open, I must conclude that there is no common ground from which to form consensus. Your grasp of reality has long since passed the border to fantasy and you and I lack useful shared presuppositions.


----------



## haloxt

Piratelord, philosophy and head-fi don't mix.


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





jerrylove said:


> Quote:
> 
> I just wanted to make sure we all understood your position. You believe that it's possible that painting the front of a volume knob will affect the sound coming out of a speaker / headphone.
> 
> With that out in the open, I must conclude that there is no common ground from which to form consensus. Your grasp of reality has long since passed the border to fantasy and you and I lack useful shared presuppositions.


 


 The idea of painting a volume knob affects sound is actually from yourself if my memory still work properly. There's a huge gap between possible and practical, and so far it looks like that it's the former you havd always been concerned with, based in your previous posts. What I did is simply showed you the possibility of how that could be done and that's all. There's also a huge gap between imagination and fantasy. I would not think of anyone who has a grasp of reality would ever come up with an idea of comparing painting a volume knob with using a properly designed power cable.
   
  I totally agree that you and I lack useful shared presuppostitions. Just like I will never be able to understand why someone would get into a power cable discussion, posting a totally irrelevant idea about painting a volume knob which does not in any way suggest what was asked but merely attack a stranger's post.
   
  At the end, you can always conclude something like you always easily did. However, your conclusion is not neccesarily true neither was your previous ones. You still have not proved them. All I am wanting to say is, it's not as easy as you thought it would be to prove something being impossible. Basic science is simply not enough to conclude neither a good power cable can not make a difference, nor painting a volume knob of an amp makes no difference. At least not to me.


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Piratelord, philosophy and head-fi don't mix.


 







No intention to get into them at the first place.
   
  It should be simplified as 2 propositions:
  1, Basic science is enough to prove that a good power cord does not affects sound.
  2, Basic science is NOT enough to prove that a good power cord does not affects sound.
   
  I chose the second, and that should be all the story.
   
  But when facing a critical challenge, I just couldn't simply let myself "look silly" can I.


----------



## JerryLove

Quote: 





piratelord said:


> The idea of painting a volume knob affects sound is actually from yourself if my memory still work properly.


 
   
  That is correct... but *you* believe it's possible; where as most of us trust our reason and "science" to tell us that it is not possible.


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





jerrylove said:


> That is correct... but *you* believe it's possible; where as most of us trust our reason and "science" to tell us that it is not possible.


 
   
  No idea where the "most of you" is from. Who are you actually representing? 
   
  I not only believe it's possible. I have showed you how it could be possible as well.


----------



## haloxt

He represents science!


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> He represents science!


 


  Good to know. I might have been messing with the wrong person then.


----------



## JerryLove

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PIratelord* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> No idea where the "most of you" is from. Who are you actually representing?
> 
> I not only believe it's possible. I have showed you how it could be possible as well.


 

 Are you disputing the claim that "most people believe that painting a volume knob will have no effect on sound"?
   
  I suppose that's less silly than your belief that painting a volume knob might change the sound.
   
  I'd be interested in seeing the results of a pole "do you believe it's possible for putting paint on a volume knob to change sound" and find out what "most" think.


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





jerrylove said:


> Quote:
> 
> Are you disputing the claim that "most people believe that painting a volume knob will have no effect on sound"?
> 
> ...


 

 I think you just have not read my points patiently, again. Or you simply just twist my arguments into your personal flavour. 
   
  I'd be interested in seeing the results of a pole "Do you believe it's possible to deliberately make the sound of an amp sensitive to the colour of it's volume knob?" 
   
  It would be a lot more interesting if you can put a big enough price there for anyone who successfully make one. Why not? You don't think it's possible anyway. 
   
  Again and again, I told you that's irrelevant to this power cable discussion.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Piratelord, you cannot prove a negative. Everyone knows that.

If you contend that a power cord makes a difference, the burden of proof is on you.

Also, you're offering the unknown as "proof" that something might work. That makes no sense whatsoever.

You're acting like cables exist in a vacuum where anything is possible. The problem with that position is that there are - literally - hundreds of millions of electrical products out there. Similarly, there have been hundreds of millions of tests, going back a good 120 years. If there was a mysterious force governing power cables, then you must assume that these anomalies would turn up in all sorts of electrical goods. But they don't. Everything behaves according to understood physics and science. So if your power cord actually produces a different result, all sorts of strange results should be turning up in - again, literally - millions of different electrical products. If what you're proposing is true, then you should be finding anomalous results with light bulbs and electric motors, just to name two.

Further, if the electrical signal is changed enough to be heard, then that ought to show up on a DMM, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, etc., as well. That they don't _strongly_ suggests that there is no difference.

Again, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If you assert something, then back it up. You can't expect someone to prove a negative.

If you think your personal experience is enough to justify a claim, then you must demonstrate that you are free of bias and not susceptible to placebo or expectation. That's tough, since the human mind is a complete sucker for those things. If you can demonstrate that you aren't biased and placebo doesn't work on you, I imagine you could make quite a bit of money as a test subject.


----------



## keanex

1+1=2 can easily be proven given a definitive definition of 1 and 2 being agreeable to the equation. Also, no power cord, not even a $2913798173 one, will increase any sound quality. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluded and ignores basic science.


----------



## Yoga Flame

Piratelord, it seems that you are making the argument that it is possible that power cords/painted volume knobs can make an audible difference; in the same sense that it is possible we are all living in a computer simulation a.k.a. the Matrix. That is, philosophically, there is no way to say with absolute certainty that it isn't the case.
   
  Is that right?


----------



## PIratelord

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Piratelord, you cannot prove a negative. Everyone knows that.
> 
> If you contend that a power cord makes a difference, the burden of proof is on you.
> 
> ...


 
   

 [size=medium]My point is not to prove a power cable makes a difference.
  My point is that it's not easy to proof it makes no difference by using basic science. 
  I suggested that it is not appropriate to make the subject a definite negative by analysing basic science only. 
  I did not propose anything neither did I conclude whether it definitely works or doesn't. This is exactly what I suggested in my first post, that it's more appropriate to share experience, not telling others something is definite. 
   
  These points went right from my first to my last posts, which don't seem to conflict too much with what you just suggested. 
   
  PS: My wife who knows nothing about Hifi, identified the difference between a Siltech Ruby Hill G6 and a 15 dollars unknown power cord, on the amp, in a blind test. Although she was not able to tell how better the ruby hill was, she did say it sounds better. 
  This is my own experience, but I don't have to prove that power cable works to anyone. I have absolutely no interest in doing so. I only suggested others to try for themselves. 
   
  Just in case you didn't notice, I was not the one who always assert or conclude things, not unless I was made to do so. ​[/size]


----------



## JerryLove

Quote:


> I personally don't like people who keep talking about physics here. If someone really care about science you should understand that the most subjective way to share your comment is by sharing your own experience, not your belief. Why so sure about how physics would behave before you understand ALL of them?


 
   
  Quote: 





> I didn't say it WAS NOT TRUE until a company produces it, I said it's IRRELEVANT TO TALK ABOUT. Please read patiently.


 
   
  I'm sorry, I thought I had understood you to say "possible".
   
  Do you believe that it is possible that painting a volume knob changes the sound, or do you believe it is impossible that painting a volume knob changes the sound? You've wasted far more time talking circles around the question than it would take to answer it (the answer being at most two words).
   
  In debate, I would be discussing shared framework.
  In philosophy, we would be discussing presuppositions.
  In legal parlance I'm offering a rebuttal for your statement.
  From a scientific perspective, I'm testing your hypothesis with an example.
   
  In any case: *you* actually raised the question of whether one could make a statement about whether something could affect sound without listening directly. Your claim that one cannot is patently false.
   
  Furthermore: it is pre-facia silly. If you would like relevance: the relevance is that I am reframing your claim so as to make its inherent silliness apparent. You must either admit that you, yourself, do not believe what you have asserted (by acknowledging that painting a volume knob cannot have sonic impact despite not knowing all of physics), or you must believe / pretend to believe that we cannot know whether painting a volume knob has sonic impact.
   
  In either case: your response will discredit your earlier claim (which, as I mentioned, is both false and silly).
   
  It is a corner you painted yourself in before I even arrived in this part of the thread. Your unwillingness to answer so simple a question appears merely evasive.


----------



## PIratelord

Quote:  





> ....
> 
> Also, you're offering the unknown as "proof" that something might work. That makes no sense whatsoever.





> ....


 

 I pointed out the discussion on painting the volume knob was irrelevant many times. However, Jerrylove claimed "there's a company in elbonia which is selling brown paint for volume knobs which make the sound more chocolatey. Hey, you can't prove there isn't. " I was simply following the logic.


----------



## JerryLove

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PIratelord* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> My point is that it's not easy to proof it makes no difference by using basic science.​


 
   
  It's very easy to establish if it makes an audible difference: ABX tests do so quite well.
   
  Quote: 





> I did not propose anything neither did I conclude whether it definitely works or doesn't. This is exactly what I suggested in my first post, that it's more appropriate to share experience, not telling others something is definite.


 
   
  Of course you did: you asserted (though in passive-aggressive language) that one cannot be "sure about how physics would behave before you understand ALL of them"
   
  Quote: 





> PS: My wife who knows nothing about Hifi, identified the difference between a Siltech Ruby Hill G6 and a 15 dollars unknown power cord, on the amp, in a blind test. Although she was not able to tell how better the ruby hill was, she did say it sounds better.


 
   
  Are you in or visiting Florida? I would be thrilled to conduct an ABX test with your power cables. You or your wife can guess which is which. I'm only an hour from Disney: I'll put you up in the guest room for your trouble and you can go vacation. If you manage it, I'll be right here next to you touting power cables.
   
  If not: perhaps someone else in your area will.


----------



## keanex

Quote: 





piratelord said:


> [size=medium]My point is not to prove a power cable makes a difference.
> My point is that it's not easy to proof it makes no difference by using basic science.
> I suggested that it is not appropriate to make the subject a definite negative by analysing basic science only.
> I did not propose anything neither did I conclude whether it definitely works or doesn't. This is exactly what I suggested in my first post, that it's more appropriate to share experience, not telling others something is definite.
> ...


 


  I just flew around my house, literally flew. You have to believe me because I posted it.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Again, you cannot prove a negative, Piratelord. If you're struggling with that fact, check out some formal logic.

What you are saying is that because not everything is understood, then power cables could work.

That's a _non sequitur._ Because some part of theoretical physics isn't full understood does not mean that some guy cranking out cables in his garage has somehow unraveled the Great Mysteries of the Universe. The more likely supposition is that the guy just made something up without any backing evidence and is hoping to make a profit. If you disagree, please point us to the test results.

Also, you seem to miss the point that if cable claims are true (which would be odd, because the cable mythology is chock full of self-contradictions. If the assertion of one manufacturer are correct, then it would mean that several other manufacturers are dead wrong.) they would invalidate a bunch of stuff that already works. If every loopy cable theory were correct (notwithstanding the contradictions), then your computer probably wouldn't turn on, your light bulbs would misbehave and your car wouldn't run.

You must take the claims in the context of what already exists.


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## keanex

He's either trolling or is defending his stance because he's already invested money he won't get back into it. Either way you're wasting your time.


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## PIratelord

Hey, I have to copy your previous question for reference here:
   
  Seriously. Let me repeat the question. Do you assert, having not listened, that painting the front of your volume knob brown will have no effect on sound; or do you assert that you believe it is possible that painting your volume knob brown will change the sound?
   
  And my answer, plus a question, in my previous reply: 
   
  I don't assert that painting the front of my volume knob will have no effect on sound. Do you? 
   
  Seriously, do you assert that painting the front of MY volume knob will have no effect on sound coming out of MY speakers? Without even knowing what my amp is made of? 
   
  I didn't avoid your question. It's just you keep changing it to suit your flavour. Why answer it once more? You are gonna change it again after that I guess.  
   
  I have made my point. And you haven't proved them wrong. I absolutely don't see any need to get any further into either debate/philosophy/legal/scientific prospective. Neither do I see any need to get someone to my place to test our hearing. As I said, I was not trying to proof anything. I don't understand why anyone would want to prove a power cable does/doesn't make a difference in a forum. Go carry it out properly and get it published or whatsoever, might proof yourself a lot more efficiently than simply trying to dig mistakes out from a stranger's post, especially a stranger who doesn't understand electrical very well. (I did not say you succeed BTW). You can always choose to buy them or not, why keep convincing others with your own belief? 
   
  to your last post: 
  It's very easy to establish if it makes an audible difference: ABX tests do so quite well.
  Agreed. So, don't use basic science. 
   
  Quote: "Of course you did: you asserted (though in passive-aggressive language) that one cannot "sure about how physics would behave before you understand ALL of them""
  Do you agree with this? or do you assert "one can be sure about how physics would behave before he understand ALL of them"? 
   
  I would rather stop here. Not gonna reply anymore. I am happy with spending my money on power cables. I am suggesting others to have a try before concluding whether they work.


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## haloxt

I think if you read carefully enough you will notice piratelord doesn't say half of the things people think he's saying. If I remember correctly, Bertrand Russell said in Impact of Science on Society, that there may come a time where the only scientific progress would be things like product r&d, and that fundamental science would not be allowed to progress. Piratelord seems to me to have the right mindset for research, but the last few pages illustrate how little we care about such things.


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## JerryLove

Quote: 





piratelord said:


> Hey, I have to copy your previous question for reference here:
> 
> Seriously. Let me repeat the question. Do you assert, having not listened, that painting the front of your volume knob brown will have no effect on sound; or do you assert that you believe it is possible that painting your volume knob brown will change the sound?
> 
> ...


 
   
  So I asked what you *do* believe, and you told me what you *don't* assert? You did not answer the question I asked. You did not answer the clearly intended point either. I thought you did (I thought you said "yes"), but then you told me you didn't, but that you didn't say "no".
   
  I'll change the sentence to remove the offending verb if you prefer... it's surprisingly hard to get you to answer a very simple question.
*Piratelord. Is it possible that painting the front of my volume knob will change the sound coming out of my speakers? *
   
  To give you an example of what an answer to this question might look like: I'll go ahead and answer it as though it were asked to me:
  "No, it's not possible".
   
  OK. Your turn. Answer the question you've been dodging for pages. Consider "yes" and "no".


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## JerryLove

Quote:


haloxt said:


> I think if you read carefully enough you will notice piratelord doesn't say half of the things people think he's saying. If I remember correctly, Bertrand Russell said in Impact of Science on Society, that there may come a time where the only scientific progress would be things like product r&d, and that fundamental science would not be allowed to progress. Piratelord seems to me to have the right mindset for research, but the last few pages illustrate how little we care about such things.


 

 Haloxt: Do you believe that it is possible that painting the front of my volume knob can change the sound coming out of my speakers?


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## haloxt

Under special circumstances. If we painted it red and there was a bull in the room I think something would happen to the sound yes.


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## livewire

Sweet baby jeebus! Will it ever end?
  I find that by taping silver crucifixes to my power cords, it wards off bad ju-ju.
  And that's a fact jack!


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## scottiebabie

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Under special circumstances. If we painted it red and there was a bull in the room I think something would happen to the sound yes.


 


  yup i think the bull mite also agree red's the color.


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## Omega17TheTrue

haloxt said:


> Under special circumstances. If we painted it red and there was a bull in the room I think something would happen to the sound yes.




It is scientifically proven that bull can't see colors... until of-course another study prove the contrary, but yes different color and aesthetic can greatly affect how we perceive the sound like for example glowing tubes.


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## JerryLove

omega17thetrue said:


> haloxt said:
> 
> 
> > Under special circumstances. If we painted it red and there was a bull in the room I think something would happen to the sound yes.
> ...


 yes, but will the sound actually change? If you need the caviat : presume that that the color change is unknown to the listener.


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## Prog Rock Man

A test run by Hifi Wigwam where members had 4 power cords at home to test and pass on. It included 2 kettle leads, an audiophile one, a DIY one and a tester CD were sent out to the forum members. The results were inconclusive to say the least, for example;

 There were 23 answers :
 4 said that the kettle lead was A
 6 said that it was B
 8 said that it was C
 5 said that they didn't know.

 Of the participants 8 identified sound differences between the kettle lead and itself.
   
  One run by Hometheatrehifi .com, was an ABX blind test with a generic and Nordost Valhalla power cord which resulted in 73 out of 149 correct identifications so 49% accuracy, the same as chance.
   
  So using your ears alone fails to pick out 'better' power cables.


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## ert

Quote: 





jerrylove said:


> Quote:
> 
> Do you believe that it is possible that painting the front of my volume knob can change the sound coming out of my speakers?


 
   
  Possible, but extremely unlikely.  Far more likely explanations to a perceived difference in sound is atmospheric differences, mental or physical differences,  placebo, etc.  Unfortunately cable believers do not really see the mountain of established evidence in the scientific community on placebo and psychosomatics.  Of course, there's always that tiny chance that painting the knob or using special cable braiding may affect the sound.  In the absence of evidence for placebo, we might even entertain such theories.  I'm not sure why the cable believers ignore the evidence and only maintain arguments based on scientific mysteries.  Uncle Erik has it right:
  
  Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> That's a _non sequitur._ Because some part of theoretical physics isn't full understood does not mean that some guy cranking out cables in his garage has somehow unraveled the Great Mysteries of the Universe. The more likely supposition is that the guy just made something up without any backing evidence and is hoping to make a profit. If you disagree, please point us to the test results.


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## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





ert said:


> Possible, but extremely unlikely.  Far more likely explanations to a perceived difference in sound is atmospheric differences, mental or physical differences,  placebo, etc.  Unfortunately cable believers do not really see the mountain of established evidence in the scientific community on placebo and psychosomatics.  Of course, there's always that tiny chance that painting the knob or using special cable braiding may affect the sound.  In the absence of evidence for placebo, we might even entertain such theories.  I'm not sure why the cable believers ignore the evidence and only maintain arguments based on scientific mysteries.  Uncle Erik has it right:


 

 x2. But a recent thread I started on the very subject of ignoring placebo got slaughtered. Anything but deal with the issue.
   
  I think that there is no chance that painting the knob will affect the actual sound. It could however affect the perception of the sound, especially if it accompanied by clever marketing and gets good reviews or positive threads in forums.


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## Omega17TheTrue

[quote name="JerryLove" yes, but will the sound actually change? If you need the caviat : presume that that the color change is unknown to the listener.[/quote]

Of course not, that why blind-tests are the most important thing when evaluating gear but almost every-time overlooked on purpose by vendors and/or very hard to achieved.


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