# Does a better quality USB cable influence sound?



## John2e

Just purchased a DAC and the manufacturer/designer  suggests purchasing a hi quality USB cable preferably of silver construction.  Has anyone experience any sonic benefit from a better quality USB cable?  Coincidentally they sell said cables for $400


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## PurpleAngel

I'm fine with the $5-$10 USB cables I buy from Monoprice.


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## John2e

purpleangel said:


> I'm fine with the $5-$10 USB cables I buy from Monoprice.


 

 Have you auditioned anything greater


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## PurpleAngel

john2e said:


> Have you auditioned anything greater


 
  
 I think $300 USB cables or for those that spend tens of thousands of dollars on audio.
 Most I would pay for a DAC/amp is around $300.


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## John2e

purpleangel said:


> I think $300 USB cables or for those that spend tens of thousands of dollars on audio.
> Most I would pay for a DAC/amp is around $300.


 
 I hear you...
  
 I have a bit invested in this hobby.  
 Just purchased a Lampizator Atlantic R2R DAC which has been called one of the best DAC's in the world and considered a bargain @ $4.5K.  I am connecting it to their $5K music server.  Might be worth it for me to consider at least a high end cable that I can try and return or easily resell. But if enough people with expierence and who have tried various cables said it is a waste,  I'd use a $3 cable
  
 Yes I know I have a problem 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I need AA,  Audiophile's anonymous 
  
 I can quit at anytime though....


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## chef8489

Since usb transfers digital info , no sonic difference can be heard when changing cables. Since that was your first question. As long as all the data gets from point a your storage to point b your dac, then doesnt matter if its an expensive or cheap cable it will sound the same.


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## GRUMPYOLDGUY

john2e said:


> Just purchased a DAC and the manufacturer/designer  suggests purchasing a hi quality USB cable preferably of silver construction.  Has anyone experience any sonic benefit from a better quality USB cable?  Coincidentally they sell said cables for $400




A USB cable will not change the frequency response in an appreciable way. 

Just use a cable that will get the bits across error free. Any well constructed cable will do that. 

Sent from my E5803 using a highly trained, special forces carrier pigeon


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## John2e

grumpyoldguy said:


> A USB cable will not change the frequency response in an appreciable way.
> 
> Just use a cable that will get the bits across error free. Any well constructed cable will do that.
> 
> Sent from my E5803 using a highly trained, special forces carrier pigeon


 





 you should change your head-fi name to;  FUNNYOLDGUY


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## lbbef

From my personal experience, usb cables do make a difference. My friends around me who are into head-fi and hi-fi also have experienced differences in different USB cables.

Based on my personal experience, the differences can be more easily heard when you pay attention to the finer parts of your setup like the power, grounding, etc... And the difference is even more significant on speakers rather than headphones.

The difference would not affect the sound signature much but rather affect things like the soundstage, dynamics, etc...

Apart from the USB cables, you may want to have a look at the other things about USB like galvanic isolation, USB regeneration, etc.. They make a difference too.

It's quite hard to get around the concept that digital cables do no make a difference but what I would recommend is to get one and trust your ears.

I used to not believe in digital cables until my ears told me otherwise.

Cheers!


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## chef8489

It cant affect sound as no sound goes through it. it is ridiculous to think otherwise. As long as all the ones and 0s get from your storage to your dac and everything on the analogue side is he same, the dac converts the same each time. Thats the beauty of  digital signal. its perfect and does not change. Thats why cable length does not matter with a digital signal. this probably needs to be moved to sound science. And yes i have heard and examined very expensive usb cables.


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## GRUMPYOLDGUY

lbbef said:


> From my personal experience, usb cables do make a difference. My friends around me who are into head-fi and hi-fi also have experienced differences in different USB cables.
> 
> Based on my personal experience, the differences can be more easily heard when you pay attention to the finer parts of your setup like the power, grounding, etc... And the difference is even more significant on speakers rather than headphones.
> 
> ...




What? Can you please explain the principle which substantiates this claim??

Sent from my E5803 using a highly trained, special forces carrier pigeon


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## OldRoadToad

I cannot hear a difference so why would I pay the difference?  Pricier cabling does look better but not *that *much better.
  
 The choice is yours and yours alone...Unless, that is, you're married. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 All the best!
  
 ORT


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## Currawong

chef8489 said:


> It cant affect sound as no sound goes through it. it is ridiculous to think otherwise. As long as all the ones and 0s get from your storage to your dac and everything on the analogue side is he same, the dac converts the same each time. Thats the beauty of  digital signal. its perfect and does not change. Thats why cable length does not matter with a digital signal. this probably needs to be moved to sound science. And yes i have heard and examined very expensive usb cables.


 

 Noise is known to get through, though that's more a problem with the electronics, a cheap cable that pics up noise, which wouldn't affect regular data transfers, can affect analogue circuits. There have been measurements taken that show this. How much that is audible is, not surprisingly, up for debate.


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## chef8489

currawong said:


> Noise is known to get through, though that's more a problem with the electronics, a cheap cable that pics up noise, which wouldn't affect regular data transfers, can affect analogue circuits. There have been measurements taken that show this. How much that is audible is, not surprisingly, up for debate.


 
 there is no noise on  digital signal. that would require adding 1s and 0s to the information and a cable can not do that. you would get more noise from your power cable cable and grid than from a usb cable carrying a digital signal. As long as there was no loss of data due to he cable you will have just as pure copy of the music no matter which cable. It is not a sound wave with resistance moving through the cable. What changes the sound happens from the dac on till it reaches your ears.


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## raxx

This reminds me of a guy on youtube with a super expensive HT set up, and he bought $400 power cables. WHY!!?!?!?!


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## MikePio

Indeed! I bought a gold plated and beryllium infused USB cable for 1 grand and the difference was huge. Blew my mind.


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## Xamdou

Sorry to go slightly off topic but does USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 makes a difference in SQ for those DACs that supports both?


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## Currawong

chef8489 said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > Noise is known to get through, though that's more a problem with the electronics, a cheap cable that pics up noise, which wouldn't affect regular data transfers, can affect analogue circuits. There have been measurements taken that show this. How much that is audible is, not surprisingly, up for debate.
> ...


 

 High-frequency noise can pass through a USB (or any other digital signal). What is more, the processing done for USB, which is vastly more complex than that of S/PDIF, causes the chips themselves to produce more noise, which can pass through to the other circuits of a component. I suggest reading posts by some of the leading engineers from manufacturers here who have discussed this in detail, including discussion of USB cables.


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## raxx

currawong said:


> High-frequency noise can pass through a USB (or any other digital signal). What is more, the processing done for USB, which is vastly more complex than that of S/PDIF, causes the chips themselves to produce more noise, which can pass through to the other circuits of a component. I suggest reading posts by some of the leading engineers from manufacturers here who have discussed this in detail, including discussion of USB cables.


 
 "leading engineers from manufacturers"? as in the folks that make these overpriced cables and then invent a reason to buy these cables?


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## Currawong

raxx said:


> currawong said:
> 
> 
> > High-frequency noise can pass through a USB (or any other digital signal). What is more, the processing done for USB, which is vastly more complex than that of S/PDIF, causes the chips themselves to produce more noise, which can pass through to the other circuits of a component. I suggest reading posts by some of the leading engineers from manufacturers here who have discussed this in detail, including discussion of USB cables.
> ...


 

 No, they don't make USB cables. They manufacture DACs. One just posted, yet again, about the numerous issues with USB as an audio transmission protocol on here. I don't want to post their names (both are very prolific posters) but if you want links to where they are discussing so you can read and ask them about it yourself, I'll PM you.


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## raxx

currawong said:


> No, they don't make USB cables. They manufacture DACs. One just posted, yet again, about the numerous issues with USB as an audio transmission protocol on here. I don't want to post their names (both are very prolific posters) but if you want links to where they are discussing so you can read and ask them about it yourself, I'll PM you.


 
 Thanks, but my dac/amp are connected to my PC through a USB cable and I hear zero noise through my headphones when I crank up the volume.


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## StanD

currawong said:


> Noise is known to get through, though that's more a problem with the electronics, a cheap cable that pics up noise, which wouldn't affect regular data transfers, can affect analogue circuits. There have been measurements taken that show this. How much that is audible is, not surprisingly, up for debate.


 

 And how often In the real world does this actually happen? All of my setups are dead quiet. Some people lay claim to soundstage improvements and improved bass and so on. I don't see how that could possibly be real.


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## John2e

currawong said:


> No, they don't make USB cables. They manufacture DACs. One just posted, yet again, about the numerous issues with USB as an audio transmission protocol on here. I don't want to post their names (both are very prolific posters) but if you want links to where they are discussing so you can read and ask them about it yourself, I'll PM you.


 
 Currawong
  
 Thanks I would like to read some of these posts.  You have access to and own some of the very best equipment and also posses extremely developed listening skills. I have read some of your reviews.  Would you please PM the links to me.
  
 Kind regards
  
 Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the matter, I respect that.  Currawong's opinion seems to be based on facts and he has evidence to support it. 
  
 If someone with a differing opinion could provide me some links on how they came to their conclusion, I would very much like to read those links as well. Simply stating I do not hear it , thus it is not true is insufficient.  People have different levels of equipment and hearing differences as well.
  
 Please be kind to one another this topic tends to bring out the worst in people  
  
  
 John


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## OldRoadToad

Sometimes, people hear what they want to hear.  If you are listening for flaws, you'll find them. Few groups are as ridiculously anal retentive as audiophiles (camera folk come to mind...LOL!).
  
 Normally I would say if it makes someone happy but where the vast majority of audiophiles are concerned, "happy" cannot be reached.  What about "satisfied"?  Usually it's followed by the words, "for now".
  
 I purchase things based upon how they look, feel and whether or not I can afford them.  Speakers/headphones are probably the most important link in the chain that makes up this hobby.  Cables?  Meh.  Buyer's remorse is normal with almost any purchase and if you wait a bit it will disperse like the fog it is.  As said elsewhere, the Beach Boys never sang, "I can hear digits"...
  
 Apparently none of the Beach Boys are "audiophiles".
  
 ORT


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## John2e

oldroadtoad said:


> Few groups are as ridiculously anal retentive as audiophiles (camera folk come to mind...LOL!).


 
  
 Isn't the cable/tweeks sub forum of a headphone forum where you would most likely find these people.  So why even come here ?  To laugh at the freaks?


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## Music Alchemist

Here's some technical info: http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference
  
 I like the USB hard adapter included with the Sonore microRendu network player since it bypasses the need for a USB cable.


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## StanD

music alchemist said:


> Here's some technical info: http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference
> 
> I like the USB hard adapter included with the Sonore microRendu network player since it bypasses the need for a USB cable.


 
 The most common USB errors results in disruptions to the music, something I don't experience in any of my hookups and I do not use expensive cables. The 1's an 0's are not common analog signals like the audio that one amplifies or listening but are based upon threshold voltages and with an applied hysteresis to aid proper level detection for numbers going to the DAC. None of this is going to affect the SQ other than disruptions or glitches, I don't  get these either, do you? In fact glitches can result from other conditions having nothing to do with the USB cable or transmission.
 If you have a ground loop, chances are it's going to manifest in noise for glitches. Can't blame the cable for that. Either you fix the ground loop or get a galvanic isolator, I recommend solving the ground loop, it's usually easy to fix. Many times the source has a noise issue, some laptops are notorious, however, a cable is not going to solve that. One can always make for fringe cases or stories to scare people, however, just think about the majority of users that are getting the proper results without worrying about their cables.
 If anyone takes pleasure in dropping a few hundred bucks on a USB cable that's OK with me, for myself I'll skip that expenditure.


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## John2e

music alchemist said:


> Here's some technical info: http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference
> 
> I like the USB hard adapter included with the Sonore microRendu network player since it bypasses the need for a USB cable.


 

 This was posted on the computer audio section
  
 http://archimago.blogspot.com.br/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html
  
 Just when I think I've got it figured out


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## Music Alchemist

john2e said:


> This was posted on the computer audio section
> 
> http://archimago.blogspot.com.br/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html
> 
> Just when I think I've got it figured out


 
  
 His measurements are cool, but remember that he did not test any expensive USB cables there. (Some of them cost many thousands.)


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## StanD

music alchemist said:


> His measurements are cool, but remember that he did not test any expensive USB cables there. (Some of them cost many thousands.)


 

 You expect them to be any better? If so, in what way, exactly?


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## Music Alchemist

stand said:


> You expect them to be any better? If so, in what way, exactly?


 
  
 Read the countless impressions from those who use them. Also, follow the posting guidelines:
  


> *please avoid trashing equipment you haven't used*


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## StanD

music alchemist said:


> Read the countless impressions from those who use them. Also, follow the posting guidelines:


 

 In my case, I'm an EE and fully understand the topic and know the difference between engineering and myth,


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## Joe Bloggs

music alchemist said:


> stand said:
> 
> 
> > You expect them to be any better? If so, in what way, exactly?
> ...




I'll put this as politely as the situation would allow:

Since the poster is querying the utility of said expensive cables as part of the decision process for buying said cables, an answer that you must own said cables in order to question them is not a satisfactory answer...

Especially when the price tag escalates to the point that buying said product becomes an excercise in buyer "self-selection" in terms of buyers' product feedback (if you know what I mean--I dare not elaborate).

At this point it should be noted that the USB standard probably wasn't drafted with a mind to requiring cables costing hundreds of dollars per piece for compliance to signalling requirements. In this respect, bigger pricetag, fatter conductors, exotic materials, intimidating-looking sheathing--none of these things guarantee a better chance at standards compliance--whereas an officially certified USB cable is guaranteed to already be standard compliant.

The day when a >100USD fat silver USB cable passes official USB standard testing is the day when I might consider batting an eye at one.

What? Manufacturer spent millions researching this new cable structure and material? Surely they have at least a certificate to show for it?


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## Music Alchemist

My take on the issue is:
  

Only those who have heard a product should make claims about how it sounds.
  
Assumptions, speculation, theory, and demands for proof (via measurements, controlled listening tests, or otherwise) belong in Sound Science—not in the other sections, where people go to read impressions from actual users.
  
Claiming that all USB cables sound the same is tantamount to saying the _countless_ audiophiles who have reported otherwise are witless hearing-impaired liars. Nice.
  
I make no claims either way. I just think everyone should avoid jumping to conclusions.


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## Joe Bloggs

Well then John2e posted his question in the wrong forum, is all I have to say.


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## Music Alchemist

joe bloggs said:


> Well then John2e posted his question in the wrong forum, is all I have to say.


 
  
 He posted in the right section, as he was looking for impressions:
  


john2e said:


> Has anyone experience any sonic benefit from a better quality USB cable?


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## John2e

joe bloggs said:


> Well then John2e posted his question in the wrong forum, is all I have to say.


 

 its also being discussed here
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/820803/long-time-member-need-some-help-getting-started-in-computer-audio
  






 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This topic has people who are convinced they are correct on each side. I am still keeping an open mind and will ultimately have to try and decide for myself rather than seek a clear consensus.
  
 Respectfully
  
 John


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## Joe Bloggs

john2e said:


> its also being discussed here
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/820803/long-time-member-need-some-help-getting-started-in-computer-audio
> 
> ...




Still the wrong forum according to the rules--

According to the rules, we can only speak freely if you post in this subforum
http://www.head-fi.org/f/133/sound-science

Otherwise, you know, science talk need not apply. There's no reverse rule against subjective impressions in this forum, so this forum is the freest forum of discussion in the strictest sense of the word.


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## Music Alchemist

@John2e
  
 If you'd like to try various cables out for yourself, you can borrow them from thecableco.com for a small fee and have it put toward any future purchases.


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## Joe Bloggs

Rather than belaboring the point as to whether cables make a difference or not, let me just say that I believe other factors dominate over cable or even DAC/amp selection.

--so, impressions talk it is here?

I have a wealthy audiophile friend, so actually I do get to use fancy cables and DACs and amps should the fancy take over me. I suppose I have at some point borrowed some megabuck cable of his at his place to connect my setups. I can't say I've ever noticed a difference that such a cable made on my setups when I was tuning them. Turning on/off corrective EQ tuning and/or HRTF processing always makes a night and day difference.

...and I know that cables make "a night and day difference" for most folks here too--let's just say, you try my soundstage DSP mod and then come back and let's talk about what a night and day difference consists of?


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## John2e

music alchemist said:


> @John2e
> 
> If you'd like to try various cables out for yourself, you can borrow them from thecableco.com for a small fee and have it put toward any future purchases.


 

 Thanks did not know they were still around about 20 years ago they sent me a bunch of interconnectors and I noticed some audible differences between them. Since then I have always purchased quality cables.  I just purchased a decent USB from amazon AudioQuest and they have a full return policy.  I will PM you with the results..
  
 Thanks


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## John2e

joe bloggs said:


> Rather than belaboring the point as to whether cables make a difference or not, let me just say that I believe other factors dominate over cable or even DAC/amp selection.
> 
> --so, impressions talk it is here?
> 
> ...


 

 very interesting stuff Joe I will certainly read it thoroughly 
  
 Thanks


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## StanD

music alchemist said:


> My take on the issue is:
> 
> 
> Only those who have heard a product should make claims about how it sounds.
> ...


 

 All I say this is very basic engineering, the same engineering that makes it possible for everyone to buy the kit to enjoy listening to music. Basically I'll paraphrase Joe, if it's compliant, you're good to go.
 I work on Wall Street, writing software. I have friends that more money than they need and buy the most expensive stuff without a second thought. Perhaps I should have become a Financials guy.
 I've brought over Amazon Basics USB cables to some of my buddies to compare with their mega buck USB cables to attach t their megabuck DACs and they couldn't tell the difference, nor could I. I wish I could adequately describe the looks on their faces.  I'll leave other cable comparisons out of this discussion.


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## Music Alchemist

joe bloggs said:


> Rather than belaboring the point as to whether cables make a difference or not, let me just say that I believe other factors dominate over cable or even DAC/amp selection.
> 
> --so, impressions talk it is here?
> 
> ...


 


stand said:


> All I say this is very basic engineering, the same engineering that makes it possible for everyone to buy the kit to enjoy listening to music. Basically I'll paraphrase Joe, if it's compliant, you're good to go.
> I work on Wall Street, writing software. I have friends that more money than they need and buy the most expensive stuff without a second thought. Perhaps I should have become a Financials guy.
> I've brought over Amazon Basics USB cables to some of my buddies to compare with their mega buck USB cables to attach t their megabuck DACs and they couldn't tell the difference, nor could I. I wish I could adequately describe the looks on their faces.  I'll leave other cable comparisons out of this discussion.


 
  
 See, I totally accept that: listening to it and not hearing a difference. My only issue is jumping to conclusions and applying that to everyone else.


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## raxx

music alchemist said:


> See, I totally accept that: listening to it and not hearing a difference. My only issue is jumping to conclusions and applying that to everyone else.


 
 I am 100% convinced that people who spend hundreds of dollars on usb and power cables *think* there is a difference in sound quality because you know the cables cost more, and therefore there has to be a difference in sound ( in your mind ) because otherwise you will have to accept the reality that you got ripped off.


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## StanD

music alchemist said:


> See, I totally accept that: listening to it and not hearing a difference. My only issue is jumping to conclusions and applying that to everyone else.


 

 I am firmly convinced that if I swallow a big rock it will be bad experience, so I will not do it. The biology behind this is pretty simple. If after being informed, if someone else insists upon doing this, they can go for it. All I can do is bring up the point so new or uninformed folks do not do the same.


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## OldRoadToad

High end cabling can be attractive to look at but it has no effect on anything other than one's ego and wallet.  I don't mind others buying this stuff, in fact, good for them.   I was asked at a recent show to give a pair of cables a listen.
  
 I picked up an unattached set, held them to my ear and said, "I don't even hear the ocean"...
  
 I neither envy nor pity those with the ability to purchase such items.
  
 ORT


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## HotIce

This magic device is only $2, and has the property to make sound most of the cables, amps, dacs, mp3 players, you name it, the same.
 Best $2 ever spent, considering the money saving potential


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## StanD

hotice said:


> This magic device is only $2, and has the property to make sound most of the cables, amps, dacs, mp3 players, you name it, the same.
> Best $2 ever spent, considering the money saving potential


 
 Is that what they mean by a black background? Talk about a low SNR.


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## HotIce

I'm thinking patent


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## StanD

hotice said:


> I'm thinking patent


 

 Trademark it as ONR (Optical Noise Reduction) and sell it to Dolby.


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## Xamdou

hotice said:


> This magic device is only $2, and has the property to make sound most of the cables, amps, dacs, mp3 players, you name it, the same.
> Best $2 ever spent, considering the money saving potential


 
 Tried and can't change track while wearing this
 Rating : 3 out of 10


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## StanD

xamdou said:


> Tried and can't change track while wearing this
> Rating : 3 out of 10


 

 You need to update its firmware.


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## HotIce

stand said:


> You need to update its firmware.




It has swipe gestures to change tracks and control volume


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## Whitigir

Yes, it does. 

You have no idea how many people would be ignorant or never had the chance to try a real USB cables, and according to the forum rules, they can not talk about if a better USB cables can or can not influence the sounds.


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## music4mhell

yes, it does.
  
 I have tested so many USB cables with Chord Mojo and i found differences in SQ for every USB cable.
  
 At last, i decided to use Pure Copper OTG cable....


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## Whitigir

music4mhell said:


> yes, it does.
> 
> I have tested so many USB cables with Chord Mojo and i found differences in SQ for every USB cable.
> 
> At last, i decided to use Pure Copper OTG cable....




Absolutely ! I make my own USB cables in any version I want by using many different wires and quality. I can attest that it does. It actually even influence the system sound performances more than analog cables

Below is a pure Silver USB cable and Pure Silver/Gold



This one is pure copper of 7N UPOCC


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## Joe Bloggs

whitigir said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> You have no idea how many people would be ignorant or never had the chance to try a real USB cables, and according to the forum rules, they can not talk about if a better USB cables can or can not influence the sounds.




There is no such rule. On the contrary; the rule is that people are not supposed to talk about the possibility that some different USB cables sound the same and why certain listening impressions that point to differences between USB cables may be mistaken. (read up what DBT-free means; the joke above the blindfolds above may be a potential violation of the DBT-free rule)


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## Whitigir

joe bloggs said:


> There is no such rule. On the contrary; the rule is that people are not supposed to talk about the possibility that some different USB cables sound the same and why certain listening impressions that point to differences between USB cables may be mistaken. (read up what DBT-free means; the joke above the blindfolds above may be a potential violation of the DBT-free rule)




Good to know . Thank you though


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## StanD

joe bloggs said:


> There is no such rule. On the contrary; the rule is that people are not supposed to talk about the possibility that some different USB cables sound the same and why certain listening impressions that point to differences between USB cables may be mistaken. (read up what DBT-free means; the joke above the blindfolds above may be a potential violation of the DBT-free rule)


 

 Can we discuss the power of the human imagination?


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## PleasantSounds

The debate regarding superiority of one stream od ones and zeroes over another will inevitably rage on, so let's take a short break and focus on something hopefully more agreeable: aesthetics. This is also a very important factor - in fact the better looking cables also sound better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Starting with the example a few posts above:
  
 Quote:


>





> _hmmm... passable, however the hear shrink endings hardly ooze quality._





>





> _Dear God! My DYI efforts look heaps better...._





>





> _This must be an arm wrestler's version of USB cable. I can easily imagine my 4kg DAC dangling on the end of it...._


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## Whitigir

Proofs, they don't appear good looking, they only sound good . 

Oh, your DIY is good, then you should already know that USB cables do affect sound quality. This 2nd one may look bad to you, but it sounded best.

In the end, you don't know, but you troll. Time to block


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