# The Reference 6SN7 Thread



## adhoc

[size=medium]- Headings and important sections in RED
 - Color of opinions quoted corresponds to original thread.[/size]


*[size=medium]6SN7 variants:[/size]*
*[* = definitely a safe 6SN7 substitute]*

*ALWAYS ASK YOUR AMP MANUFACTURER FIRST BEFORE SWAPPING TUBE TYPES!!!*

*6SN7GT* *- First designation of the 6SN7 tube type. ‘G’ = glass body & ‘T’ = short bottle.
*6SN7W* / 6SN7A* / 6180* *- 10000hrs minimum life. Often labeled with JAN-CHS (equals Sylvania-made military stock) The A is generally a taller bottle with the mica above the metal band while the W has the bottom mica a bit below the metal band. But it's common to find both labelled as each other also.
*6SN7GTA* *- 'Upgrade' of 6SN7GT, max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total. Hence tube better fulfills special requirements for TV sweep applications, like higher peak power and better impulse capabilities. 
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer. 
*6SN7GTB* *- Same as GTA, but with faster tube heat-up (11 seconds only). 
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer. 
*6SN7GTC* *- Metal envelope type 6SN7 [ie. glass envelope replaced by a metal cap]. Not well regarded. From Audio Asylum: _”South American trash can style 6SN7, 1970's vintage, pure rubbish, I wouldn't even count on it really being a 6SN7 as the South American tube makers were fairly...'liberal'...with their use of tube numbers.” –Robert H_ 
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer. 
*6SN7GTY* *- Only found on 6SN7GTs with brown ‘low-loss’ Micanol bases. RCA (US - lighter brown) and Brimar (British - darker brown) made GTYs.
*6SN7WGT* *- Military version of the 6SN7GT; 10,000hrs minimum life (up for debate). _“IMO, while tubes (like car engines or light bulbs) may be rated for a specific lifetime, a LOT depends on the actual usage type and pattern the tube will see. E.g. Switch your amp on/off 10 times a day? Don’t expect 10,000hrs.”_ -Author
*6SN7WGTA* *- Military version of 6SN7GTA.
*6SN7WGTB* *- Military version of 6SN7GTB.

*VT-231* *- Military Part number for 6SN7. Part number used until 1945 - hence presence of this designation is usually a guarantee for real old tubes.
*JAN-XXX-6SN7** - JAN= Joint Army Navy. Factories conducted stress tests (above normal 'civilian' specs) on samples of standard tubes. If they survived, the whole lot would be approved (batch approval), and marked with the prefix JAN. The samples that are actually used for the stress tests are discarded. * Do remember that the stress tests conducted were on SMALL samples. “ Very interesting thing nobody talks about - especially dealers who have made a living buying old military stock that occasionally pops out of warehouses. What did the government do with tube shipments they received where their spot testing results were not acceptable? Well, in some cases, they sent them back, whereupon the manufacturer sold them into the secondary markets. A lot of those are still floating around today. OR - the government stuck the shipment into a warehouse, and in typical bureaucratic fashion, forgot about them - until some SoCal slickster approaches them with a great offer. Bingo! They are back on the market as super-duper cold war commie beating top grade mil-spec tubes - and sold to you and I, who don't realize that they probably failed the spec test. The VT or JAN designations have too often been assumed in tube folklore to be better tubes. In reality, they may be the rejects. I have occasionally found FIELD STOCK in foreign countries left behind after a war. This is the primo stuff. Not the stuff sitting in a US or UK warehouse.” –Robert H.  [PHOTO HERE]*
*5692 *- Military part number for a 'shock-proof' tube. Introduced 1948. The famous RCA "red base" is a 5692. Weight is much higher, and tube construction differs from 6SN7s. 275V maximum plate voltage & maximum 1.75W per section. * [PHOTO HERE]*

*33S30A* / 33S30B** - Swedish military versions of the 6SN7. Very _very_ rare and sought after. 
*ECC31, 32, 33, 34* - Popular MISconception: these are *NOT *equivalent to 6SN7. Especially the ECC32/CV181 - close, but the 50% higher current draw will probably fry some transformers. Grid voltage, gain and transconductance are all different for these tubes. Ask your amp manufacturer first before substituting these in.
*CV181/CV2821* – Alternate designations for ECC32/ECC33 respectively. The popular Mullard CV181 is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7s – 50% more power draw means that the tube will probably send your transformer up in smoke. 
*1633/6042* - 25V/0.15A heater version of the 6SN7.
*6N8S** - Old Russian designation for the 6SN7. Some Eastern European and Chinese tube factories still use this designation.
*6H8C* - Russian designation for a 6SN7 with a higher plate voltage. * [PHOTO HERE]*
*13D2* - Europe-only 'special quality' version of the 6SN7GT. The tube is reinforced for additional mechanical rigidity. * [PHOTO HERE]*
*CV1986* / CV1988* *- Both are the UK Government Common Valve designation for the 6SN7GT. * [PHOTO HERE]*
*CV2627* *- UK Government Common Valve designation for the 6SN7W.
*B65** - 6SN7 replacement made by Marconi/Osram/GEC. _Extremely _rare and sought after. * [PHOTO HERE]*
*7N7 *- Electrically IDENTICAL to the 6SN7 tube. This tube has a loctal-base. To fit a 6SN7 socket, a loctal-socket-to-octal-base adaptor must be fashioned. Why loctals? These tubes were created (and strongly advocated by RCA and Philco) for use in high-frequency radio applications, where the longer wires present in normal 6SN7 bases were causing problems by picking up interference. *[PHOTO HERE]*


*Some words on tube reliability:*

 To ensure good tube reliability you should probably run a tube at 70% or less of its maximum plate dissipation.

 Using the general audio application of 250 plate volts, a bias of 8 volts resulting in 9ma of current and plate dissipation of 2.25 Watts, we find: 

 5692 - runs 43 % over maximum rating – It isn’t a 10,000 hour tube when you run it this HOT!
 6SN7GT - runs 64% of maximum – coasting and liking it
 6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






*Words of Wisdom:*
*
 ● “It may be possible to get genuine Sylvanias or Tungsols labelled as something else; for instance I've seen a Tungsol roundplate labelled as Emerson and a genuine Sylvania VT231 labelled as Ferranti.They may be cheaper if they are labelled like this.” – Rob N

 ●  And a counterpoint to the opinion stated above. “Sometimes true, not. In many cases that secondary branding was a legitimate aftermarket sale. In many other cases is was a dumping of tubes that failed to meet spec to a rebrander to liquidate under a name not associated with the original manufacturer - a tertiary market to dump 'grey' tubes. Yup, they were always cheaper. Rightfully so.” –Robert H.

 ● "In tubes WITHOUT top getter flashes, small metallic splotches (which look similar to getter flashes) on the inside of the glass above the heater filament openings indicates that the tubes are USED; tungsten from the heater evaporates with use and condenses there." -author

 ●  And a counterpoint to the opinion stated above. “Again, often true, but certain tubes - particularly short bottle GE's from the 50's - develop these splotches virtually immediately upon testing and so this cannot be considered a real sign of use for those tubes.” –Robert H.

 ● “In general – a ‘W’ suffix anywhere behind the tube type number indicates a low-microphonics version of that tube.” – various

 ● "The "getter flashing" absorbs free oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and hydrogen from the tube whether the tube is used or not. You can be certain the vacuum is bad "ONLY" if the flashing turns chalky white all over. If it is silver, black, rainbow-colored, or even totally gone, the tube might still work fine. In fact, a "BLACK" getter is MORE effective than a "SHINY" getter at absorbing gas.

 ● Here's a quote taken from "GETTER MATERIALS FOR ELECTRON TUBES" by Werner Espe: "If the getter is vaporized very slowly, the first barium atoms evaporated will absorb the gas present so that the remaining getter is deposited in a very high vacuum, exhibiting a "shiny" mirror. If flashing is done very rapidly, however, the getter deposits in a rather high vapor pressure, and the getter mirror will be discolored (rainbow-like) due to the dispersion of the barium. If vaporization is carried out in the inert atmosphere of a rare gas, the condensed deposit will be "black", resulting in a "dispersal" getter. This condition does not mean that the getter is contaminated, but merely that the deposit is finely divided and therefore absorbs light. Such deposits exhibit "HIGH" efficiency than the bright deposits: i.e. DARKER is better. 

 The ONLY way to accurately determine the health of a vacuum tube is to test it ELECTRICALLY. PERIOD. Anyone who discards a tube because its getter flashing is slightly "discolored" is making a sad mistake." - Tubeseller.com

 ● “It's also worth knowing that there is a common misconception about those VT-231 numbered tubes. It's nothing more than a number. If you find a 6SN7GT of the same vintage, it will be identical to the VT-231 numbered version. I have here Sylvania 6SN7GT from 1945 identical to the VT-231 numbered tube, and Raytheon 6SN7GT 1944 identical to the 1944 VT-231. Also RCA's, Tungsols, and so on. There is no magical significance to the VT-231 number. But some people think there is, because salesmen have told them so. It's become popular folklore in tube circles.” – Tubeseller.com*
[size=x-small]
 JAN codes (JAN-xxx-6SN7 / 6SN7x / 6SN7xx / 6SN7xxx) 
 [IF there is an added designation ‘VT-231’ = WW2 vintage, roughly made till 1947]

 GE: *CL* (JAN’ed GE tubes are rather rare)
 Hytron: *CHY* (merger with CBS came after VT-231 designation, hence no 'CBS/Hytron' yet)
 Ken-Rad: *CKR*
 Sylvania: *CHS*
 Raytheon: *CRP*
 RCA: *CRC*
 Tung-Sol: *CTL*[/size]


*A few words regarding the Mullard CV181:*

 This tube is highly sought-after. BUT, it is NOT a 6SN7. It is an ECC32, which is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7. As mentioned earlier, the current draw for this tube is 50% higher than a 6SN7. *This will blow most power transformers over time.* And power transformers rarely die alone – they usually take some other parts with them when departing this plane. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The higher current draw also results in higher gain – something which many people forget when trying out this tube. *All other factors remaining constant, a higher gain results in a higher volume, which can in turn result in the (mistaken) impression that the tube has a ‘fuller’ sound. *

 Which _may or may not_ have contributed to this particular tube’s much sought after status. Food for thought, indeed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




_“It's interesting to note that a single dealer created virtually the whole myth and market for the CV181. He made a lot of bucks off them because he had an almost limitless South African source for the tube.” Robert H._




*[size=large]-= THE 6SN7 REFERENCE LIST =-[/size]*

 Opinions are distilled from these pages:

*6SN7 VT-231 5692 Tube Audio Performance – Chimera Labs Revised 05/2003: *http://home.att.net/~chimeraone/6sn7sound.html

*Singlepower tube rolling thread: * http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...er+tuberolling

*PPX3-NS67+ upgrades or MPX3?: * http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...sylvania+6sn7-

*View Single Post – MPX3 Upgrade (Glod): *http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showp...0&postcount=24

*Tuberolling the Wheatfield HA2: * http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=5692

*MicroZOTL tube rolling thread: *http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...highlight=5692

*Tuberolling the Eddie Current HD-25: *http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120460


*4 SECTIONS:**

 1. VT-231 TUBES[*]
 2. NOS TUBES
 3. NEW STOCK TUBES
 4. 5692 TYPE TUBES
 5. VTV’s TUBE RANKINGS (from ISSUE #11)
 [*]: I have received some flak over giving a separate section to what is essentially an inventory control number, perhaps implying a certain “mystique” about these tubes/ Remember people - THERE IS NONE. Just as there are “good” and “bad” 6SN7s there are “good” and “bad” VT-231s. 

*
*- 1. VT-231 TUBES*

*Hytron VT-231* * [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black base, black plates, bottom getter, rectangular top and bottom micas]_
● “Hytrons [are] slightly less forward and colder than the Sylvania's (VT-231s).” -Glod

*Ken-Rad VT-231 (also available with ‘US Navy’ label) (1940s vintage) (2 types- parallel or staggered [ie diagonal pattern of grid posts on mica when viewed from the top] plates. Staggered are preferred.)** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black glass ending ~7mm above base, white labels, staggered/parallel plates, bottom getter (still visible), may have no labels on black base]_
● “Great Bass, drive, sweet midrange, good bandwidth” –Chimera
● “the Ken Rad VT-231 is often referred to as the very best 6SN7 for low end [referring to bass, not low-quality equipment], and I've heard nothing to contradict that” –Hirsch
 ● “40's should be the same as the VT-231 designations with staggered plates. Lots is written about this tube. I agree with most of what's written online. 40's KR, in either clear or black glass with staggered plates and bottom getters, are good tubes. Bass is definitely it's strong suit. On the other hand, the highs are more grainy then other tubes. Consider this tube the antithesis of the Sly VT-231s. Some say it's got a sweet midrange, but in my application it isn't (even bordering on lean).” –Len
 ● “good midrange, not as rich as Sylvania, excellent highs, known for powerful bass.” –Hirsch, in personal correspondence with author
● “The month I spent waiting to get this tube where rewarded with the best bass performance of any tube I have yet tried.the bass is amazing,tight,accurate and very focused.Output tube matching becomes more important with this tube but the reward is the incredible bass.There is no real loss of soundstage or midrange dynamics from the 5692 brownbase but some of the bass comes at the expense of vocal clarity.an awsome upgrade.” –Tuberoller
● “OK, there's the bass. This particular 6SN7 is a monster. Great bass response on the R10...but with any other headphone can be overwhelming (depends on 12AT7)...but the midrange and highs seemed to suffer. Tonality was great, but the ZOTL seemed to have problem with smearing. My suspicion is that the older tubes just can't handle the ZOTL/R10 power demands.” –Hirsch
● “VT-231 Ken-Rad, flat black plates - Great Bass, drive, sweet midrange (maybe not as sweet as the Syl VT231). Great top end extension as well and not harsh.” –scottpaul_iu
● “This is a tube that I enjoy immensely. Bass is very propulsive and visceral and grabs you at first listen. Unexpectedly, low level detail is best of all the tubes tested so far. I had my sister randomly switch tubes while I was blinded and I confirmed, in my setup at least, that this tube is the best for low level detail. Midrange is slightly less sweet than the 1952 syl 6SN7GT. Bass slam on this tube has to be heard to be believed. Instrument separation is slightly less than the Raytheon vt231. Vocals are a nice blend of clear and sweet on this tube. A very quick tube, outdone only by the 1952.” –adhoc
 ● “With reference to the KenRad, the first version can have either black glass or clear glass, always with staggered plates (I was the one who coined the 'staggered plates' moniker - there is zero sonic difference between the two). In the late 40's, when GE had taken more control over the KenRad operation, there was a second version with clear glass and in-line ribbed plates - it is NOTEABLY inferior sonically - gone is the big bass and the midrange bloom, added is a dry, slightly constricted sound with no magic.” -Robert H. (in personal correspondence) 

*National Union “VT-231”* *[PHOTO HERE]*
_[grey/black glass (former rarer) - black glass starting 1/4 of way from top of base and ending near top, black base, circular top mica with 2 rectangular mica pieces attached to sides, copper grid posts,]_
 ● *“NU never actually made a tube designated VT-231*, although some have the JAN-CNU designation - the earlier grey glass model. It sounds very different from the later black glass version that was manufactured from about 1949 to 1953 and NEVER had a military designation.” Robert H. (in personal correspondence)
● “Good drive and great midrange, softer bass and a touch euphonic” –Chimera
● “The NU tubes are both some of the smoothest 6SN7s I've heard. They aren't really lush so much as they are "liquid." RCAs are definitely sweeter. I prefer the gray glass for its tonality, but the black glass has better bass in my system” –Len
 ● “…the sound is very good. Wide soundstage, a little more forward presentation, very good bass, and treble, and a sweeter midrange than the Kenrad. I still like the way the Kenrad attacks better. but if your looking for a lusher sounding tube than the KenRad theses grey glass NU are good. They dont sacrifice the bass and little treble.” –tom hankins
 ● “I agree completely with Tom about the grey glass NU tube. The lushness he describes doesn't seem to apply to the black glass version, but that tube has its own strengths. Both are worth trying if you can find them.” –Hirsch
 ● “The NU black glass is very similar to the KenRad, the bass is not quite as huge. A bit dark, beautiful sound.” –Robert H

*Raytheon VT-231 (2 versions, T plates and flat plates - former is of earlier construction than the latter)** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[2 versions - both clear glass, black base, but one (later version) has 2 free support posts and flat plates, other does not (has normal T-plates)]_
● “Like the Tung-Sol a little sweeter, nice balance of detail and timbre” –Chimera [flat plates]
● “I thought it had a hard area in the midrange that gave the Sylvania a clear edge. I was wrong, I think. I've now tried two sets in the past week, and there's no trace of the hardness I heard before. My suspicion is that the amp had not fully burned in when I tried them, and that what I was hearing wasn't the tubes, but the amp itself. It's also possible that it was a cabling or source issue, since there have been a lot of system changes since the early tuberolling attempts. Right now, these tubes are heaven. Extended highs, a crystal clear midrange lacking some of the Sylvania's warmth, and an extended bass response. Interesting, actually, since these were also the tubes I eventually settled on with the MicroZOTL when I had one. They've got something that eventually brings me back to them. The level of detail seems higher than it is with Sylvania's, and the bass impact of these tubes really comes through on the R10.” –Hirsch [flat plates]
● “Raytheon VT-231 or JAN-CRP-6SN7GT are much more forward in their presentation. [compared to Ken-Rad and Sylvania VT-231 combo]” –Glod [flat plates]
● “If you like (much) more excitement and drive; change the Sylvania's for Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7WGT from the early to mid 1950.” –Glod [flat plates]
● “I like this tube. It doesn't compare to the better 40's 6SN7, but it's significantly cheaper (or at least it should be). It's relatively linear with a little emphasis in the midband. Not a big sound, but very easy to listen to.” –Len [flat plates]
 ● “excellent dynamics. Loads of power, but can be slightly harsher than the other two pairs [syl vt-231 and ken rad vt-231].” –Hirsch, in personal correspondence with author [flat plates]
● “I've been experimenting with the Raytheon VT-231. There are two versions of this tube. One is a box plate, that looks like the early Sylvania plates. I wasn't particularly impressed by this. It's a good tube, but doesn't have anything the other 6SN7's I've been using couldn't do. However, the other version has flat plates and support rods. This is a different beast entirely. It's got a very fast attack, with extreme control of the lower midrange and midbass. Extended highs. The midrange is not as lush as some of the other 6SN7's, but it's dead accurate. In front of a pair of Syl VT-231's, this tube makes the Supra a very forward sounding amp, with great speed and the best bass I've gotten out of the amp. Since I put it in a few weeks ago, I've simply left it there, and listened to music (no urge to roll any more tubes right now).” –Hirsch
● “Compared to 1952 Syl 6SN7GT and KenRad vt231, this is a brighter sounding tube. There is a certain forcefulness to the presentation that is quite attention-grabbing. Vocals are extremely clear with this tube. The mids are less sweet and a wee bit thinner than both the KR and 1952. There is a slight dry-ness to the sound overall. Clarity clarity clarity, yet less low level detail than the KR. A tad less bass slam than the 1952. I noticed some reverb.” –adhoc
 ● “There are at least FOUR versions that I have found. This tube, in one form or another, was in production from 1943 to at least 1956 - a long time. There is a short bottle T-plate version and a tall bottle version with narrow plates. Number of support rods and clips on the micas differed. Other minor changes. Most prefer the ribbed plates over the T-plates and the earlier ones are better.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)

*RCA VT-231* *[PHOTO HERE]*
_[black base, grey/black glass (latter far more rare), 2 extra rectangular mica pieces attached to either side of round top mica, grey glass starts from the bottom and ends near the top and will have a few thin clear vertical lines 'scratched' into it by both extra mica pieces, crimped filament openings]_
● “RCA VT-231 grey-bottles are much warmer and have a grand presentation with accentuated reverb. [compared to Ken-Rad and Sylvania VT-231 combo]” –Glod
● “I have used the gray glass RCA VT231 as input in the MPX3 (7 months ago) and it had good bass and nice detail,(sorry to be so vague but I haven't used them for a while) but it doesn't sound 'right' as a TS RP does.” –Rob N
● “I had tried the RCA VT-231, and thought the high end didn't cut it compared to Sylvania's.” –Hirsch
 ● "As far as lushness goes the 1940's RCA grey glass is the one to go for." -RobN [in personal correspondence with author]
 ● “The warmest, best tonally is the early grey glass RCA VT-231. This one has very strong bass, a bit less defined, but an incredible rich midrange.” –Robert H
 ● “Yes, the RCA VT-231 is a bit syrupy. It certainly doesn't have the openess and detail of, say, the Sylvania VT-231. But it's TONALITY is just, well...right. The sound of musical instruments - their tonality - is simply the correct one. I just love this tube. So musical. It's sorta like a real babe, with killer knockers, but she's got a little too much around the middle. You know there's something not perfect, BUT - it just feels so damn good you can't keep yourself from going back.” –Robert H
 ● “Here we get into murky territory. RCA produced a grey glass 6SN7GT with side micas straight through from 1942 until at least 1956, and there is a great deal of sonic variation among tubes within that period. None are bad. But the early one sound far better. This is one of my favorite 6SN7's, but let's face it - it is very warm and lush, has a huge soundstage and huge bloom - not for Cary owners (for example) whose amps are already tubby sounding. In a good, neutral tube amp - which is what a good tube amp is, actually - this tube is a king. But be VERY careful about the vintage. Early ones have the magic. Later ones are good but no moondust.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)

*Sylvania VT-231 ** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black base, white (1940s) or green (1950s - very rare) labels, bottom getter (visible), black T-plates, tall bottles, rectangular top and bottom micas]_
● “Wide bandwidth, well balanced, excellent sound stage and air” -Chimera
● “Good high end extension, a warm and full midrange and decent bass extension. Imaging is precise and the perceived staging is wide. What could be better?” –Hirsch (refers to 1940s and pre-1953 construction tubes only) 
 ● “Right off the bat, the bass is recessed but with more control. Everything sounds more refined and delicate. Soundstage is bigger too. Will report back once they are burn in.” -Habib
 ● “I've been using all 3 Sylvania VT-231s in my MPX3 for the past couple days now. While the clarity and resolution improved, bass didn't. I would describe the overal sound characteristic as neutral, transparent, and musical. Problem right now is with the Sylvanias, the MPX3 is great for jazz and classical but not so great for hiphop and rock. I am wondering if TS as gain tube will take care of my problem. Just something to make it bring out more of the bass.” –Habib
 ● “Turns out that the bass is not so much recessed but the overall sound being more neutral. I was used to the stock EH tubes being more boomy.” –Habib
 ● “Sylvania VT-231s are good value tubes, with the main deficiency in the bass region. Some here think it's a sweet tube; I disagree. It's a very linear tube from the midrange on up and does the treble region very well (extended and grainless).” –Len
 ● “Very nice midrange, slightly weak bass, good highs. One of the best all-around tubes. This is not the 1952 "big bass" tube, which is not a VT-231. IThe 1952 tube looks similar, but has green print, and will say 6SN7GT on it. There will be a three digit date code on the base of the tube, and the first number will be "2"” –Hirsch, in personal correspondence with author
● “this tube afforded great improvements in midrange,vocals and detail.bass was not as tight as the Ken-Rad but the vocal performance was superior.this tube was fond of piano jazz and lush vocal tracks.It also matched well with all the output tubes and ran a little hot.” –Tuberoller
● “Using the Sylvania VT-231, I simply couldn't get a decent bass response, no matter what I did.” –Hirsch
 ● “VT-231 Sylvania, black plates, wide bandwidth, well balanced, excellent sound stage and air, good bass but not quite as much bass as the KenRad VT231.” –scottpaul_iu
 ● “If you are looking for strong bass, avoid the mid-40's Sylvania VT-231 which has weak bass” –Robert H
 ● “Curiously, in your pictures you show a version that is neither of these - you show the first version from 1943 that has a plate getter and engraved base - it is perhaps the best of any, it actually has bass! Along with the other characteristics of the 1945 white label version. Worth checking around for, a very good tube, best Syl VT-231 IMO.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)

*Tung-Sol VT-231 * * [PHOTO HERE]*
_[keyhole-shaped black plates, black glass ending 1/4 from top, black base, oval or round (rare) micas]_
● “Tung-Sol round-plates are much faster, open and perhaps a bit colder [compared to Ken-Rad and Sylvania VT-231 combo]” –Glod
● “I really like the Tung Sol VT 231.It has a very,very nice overall balance and is fast and accurate.Not the killer bass of the Ken Rad and not the super lush midrange of the CBS brown base but a nice sonic signature that will not offend.” –Tuberoller
 ● “This tube was never considered special until some dealer got a bunch, noticed the price creeping up, slipped a few judicious posts onto Audio Asylum shilllling them, and sat back to watch he demand he generated drive up the price - and then, it snowballs - everyone's gotta try them - and then, everybody who paid $250 to $300 for a pair of tubes all of a sudden starts hearing incredible things in them and they are the new "best". One idiot on Ebay has even taken to selling French Neotron round plates and alluding to them being as good as Tungsols, or maybe even made by Tungsol! (hint - the Neotron is an OK tube, but nothing special.) The fact is, the T-S round plates are very fine, have great inner transparency and are unique sounding, the mids are not lush, but they do have a nice touch of euphonics, the bass is weaker than I would like and the highs can be sibilant - a problem. It does have the virtue of being the most uniformly quiet 6SN7 and consistent from sample to sample.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)



*- 2. NOS TUBES*

*Amperex 6SN7GT* *[PHOTO HERE]*
 [red labels, grey T-plates, rectangular top & bottom mica, ‘flying-saucer’ getter holder at bottom]
_This tube was never made by Amperex. ALL Amperex tubes on the market are Russian relabels. The Ameperex tube looked suspiciously like a Sovtek, right down to the 'flying saucer' getter. Amperex catalogs have been checked and verified to prove that Amperex never made a 6SN7 tube. For all you that have paid big $$$ for Amperex 6SN7GTs: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

*Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTY** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[dark brown base, black glass (starting 1/4 from base and covering top of glass) with white labels on glass, clear glass (very rare)]_
● “FE is Brimar's manufacturing code, and the Y in 6SN7GTY simply means it has a brown micanol base. It's a good, lush sounding tube and perfectly usable in your amp.” –Len
 ● “The Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTY was the first 6SN7 I fell in love with, so it does have a place in my heart. It is not a TS/RP-sounding tube, however. Brimars are very sweet, lush sounding tubes. […] It should be noted that Brimars are also the quietest 6SN7s I've ever had the pleasure of using. All in all, the CV1988 is a terrific tube, but it is not a TS/RP competitor. You turn to Brimars when you want a more euphonic sound.” –Len
 ● "Lush and romantic = Brimar or RCA, Brimar being more lush but some consider bloomy. Both have strong lower end." -Len [in personal correspondence with author]

*CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT* * [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, black base, white labels, bottom getter (not usually visible)] _
● “Quiet and musical, the best of the non-military tubes” -Chimera
● “The Hytrons are the most mellow and have the most refined sound. Very smooth and airy up and down with a nicely detailed high end. Not much punch. Never gets bright. Bass is there, but not very detailed and tubby sounding.” -bobjew
 ● “The Hytron and slightly later CBS-Hytron 6SN7GT is an excellent sounding tube that can be found from time to time on Ebay for a very reasonable price. Good extension top to bottom, a lucid midrange, smooth, doesn't call any attention to itself in the audiophile sound effects department.” –Robert H

*CBS/Hytron 6SN7GTB** [PHOTO HERE]*
 [black bases, red labels, side getter]
_These tubes are rebranded GE 6SN7GTB tubes._

*GE 6SN7GTA** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[side getter, grey plates, black base, white labels, round top mica] _
● “The great driver tube? Fast, wide bandwidth, smooth sound at the expense of the of low level detail. Along with the Sylvania yellow Labels and Tung-Sol Top getter 6SN7GTB, a great “fourth” tube in Atma-Sphere amps.” -Chimera 

*GE 6SN7GTB ** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[gray plates, side getters, black base, white or orange labels] [4 vintages: *a.* early 1950's (D-getter, white labels) *b.* early 1960's (O-getter) *c.* mid-1960's (exposed top filament wire) and *d.* 1970's (coin base)]_
● “Work horse, lacks refinement, a good tube” -Chimera
 ● “EARLY 1950s: Not a bad tube, not a great tube. Very warm, not harsh, warm but not overly ripe or detailed mids, a bit zippy on top, not magical, but overall, a pretty decent tube. This version appears to have been made up to the early 1960's, but sonically the tube declines as the dates get more recent. Look for early 50's dates.” –Robert H
 ● “EARLY 1960s: Again, not terrible, but not as good as the earlier one, a bit more grain & grit, and the bass is bloated & indistinct. There are worse, but this one is nothing to go out of your way for.” –Robert H
 ● “MID-1960s EXPOSED FILAMENT WIRE: This one has the filament wire running across the top-mica between the cathodes, giving a nice lighting effect - but sonically, it's not very good - dry, grainy, zippy highs, a flat, uninvolving sound. Nice light effect though.” –Robert H
 ● “1970s COIN BASE: Horrible, microphonic, noisy, unmusical, one of the worst 6SN7s ever made.” –Robert H

*Ken-Rad 6SN7GT*
_[usually JAN versions, black base, clear glass, staggered plates - IDENTICAL TO VT231 AFAIK]_
● “Bass a little tubby, but clean with great ambiance and air” -Chimera

*Raytheon 6SN7WGT*
 [brown base, red labels, top getter with rectangular getter holder on stalk, black plates with 'cubes' on top mica, round top mica with 3 'umbrella spokes']
 ● “A few other suggestions are the Raytheon 1950's 6SN7WGT brown base, has great bass and nice warmth (can have yellow, orange, red, brown printing depending on the year)” –Robert H

*RCA Silver Label 6SN7GT / GTA / GTB ** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, bottom getter (usually not visible), black base, silver labels]_
● “More musical than the Sylvania Chrome Domes, rich harmonic structure with excellent imaging and sweet non fatiguing sound performance. Good imaging and low level detail resolution. Becomes a little too sweet in equipment that uses a lot of 6SN7 types. Nice combination with Sylvania Chrome Domes and the better 6SN7 “driver” tubes.” -Chimera
 “The 1950's GT is a completely different animal than the RCA GTA or GTB from that period, in fact, it's pretty much the same tube as the 40's grey glass - not as good as I mention above - but still a nice tube. The GTA came in two variants - the single side getter and double side getter. Both lack the ultimate refinement but are good, punchy musical tubes. Fun tubes. The GTB's are not the worst GTB's, but not really worth picking up for a serious 6SN7 -phile.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)
 ”
*RCA Silver Label 6SN7GT / GTA / GTB** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, single/twin side getters, black base, silver labels] _
● “What to get when you combine the bandwidth and speed of the Sylvania Chrome Dome and rich harmonic structure of the RCA silver Labels Bottom Getter….the RCA Silver Labels Side Getters. But the highs are a little recessed and the bass is a little forward. Low level midrange resolution a little obscured. Overall a very nice tube.” -Chimera

*RCA Orange Label 6SN7GTB** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[bottom getter (usually not visible), orange labels]_
● “Rich midrange, warm sound, likes being combined with other 6SN7 types, likes the Atma-Spheres” –Chimera

*RCA 6SN7WGT*
_[???]_
● “I am also liking the RCA 6SN7WGT.This tube has a lush midrange with very extended treble and good bass.I love this one for most Jazz music with the Beyer 931 phones.” –Tuberoller
 ● “Never existed. Sometimes in the late 60's you see some tubes labelled as such due to the chaotic nature of 60's labelling, but RCA never made 'em. RCA DID make a very rare 6SN7GTY in the 50's which is a grey bottle tube and very nice, pretty much the grey glass 6SN7GT of the period with a brown base.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)

*Sylvania 6SN7GT (1952 vintage ONLY)** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[*3 holes in each plate*, copper grid posts, bottom getter, green labels, black base and plates, vertical date code (read from top-down) ‘*2*xx’ with ‘xx’ representing week #, 'polished' silvery rectangular mica]
 [*NON-1952 *vintage short-bottle 6SN7GTs can have *ROUND MICAS* and NEVER have 3 holes per plate [only 2] - check for an example in my photo gallery]_
● “One tube that you should look out for is 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT. It's constructed with the same tooling as the 40's VT-231, but this tube is different in that it actually has good, propulsive base. I can only speculate why it sounds much better even though the tooling is the same. But it is certainly one of the top 5 6SN7s on my list. For a while, I thought all these Syl rectangular plated 6SN7GT were all the same, but it turns out my previous 1952's were on their last legs.” –Len
 ● “The best treble I've heard is the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boys" (I refer to these tubes as Syl VT-231s on steroids - better treble and rock solid bass). The first time I heard the 52's, I literally had an "oh my!" reaction to the treble.” –Len
 ● “The 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT shares the sonic characteristic of the previous 6SN7GT/VT-231 tall bottle, except many say it is more refined and has significantly more (clean) bass.” –Len [in personal correspondence with author] 
● “A tube with what is imo a slightly dark and effortlessly natural sound. An extremely sweet (but not overdone) midrange. There is roughly the same amount of slam as the Ken-Rad VT-231 [KR], yet the slam is definitely less visceral than the KR. This is an extremely musical tube, with a less airy sound than both the KR and Raytheon [RT]. The treble on this tube is more ‘tubey’ sounding, and is less cold than the KR and certainly the RT. What surprised me was that there was slightly less discernable low level detail than the KR. Low level detail is the same as the RT. Instrument separation was slightly less than the RT. A completely non-fatiguing tube to listen to. Female vocals are a joy to listen to on this tube – echoing another member, I really feel like reaching across and getting to know Diana Krall a –whole- lot better with this tube. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




” –adhoc 
 ● “If you can, try the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT from 1952, bottom getter - incredible bass, warm lovely mids and very extended sweet highs. Some days I think this may be the best sounding 6SN7 ever made.” –Robert H
 ● “The '52 Syl came to me from Neville in Australia who had a big stash and I first posted about them on Tubes Asylum and coined the "Bad Boys" moniker that still sticks. Your description is dead on, later in '52 the tube changed to a shorter bottle with round serrated micas - an ordinary, dry sounding tube - but it does have a 1952 date code and many sellers try to pass it off as the good ones. All around this is one of the best 6SN7's ever made.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)

*Sylvania 6SN7GT / WGT / GTA / WGTA / GTB (1950s vintage)** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[“Chrome Dome” / “Silver Top” (ie top getter), black base, green labels, 'Sylvania' text is in 'bold'-looking font] _
● “Non-fatiguing, smooth, with good detail resolution, bandwidth and speed. Bass can be a bit warm and exaggerated, a good thing if your speakers are bass shy. Does not have the midrange ambience and resolution of the VT-231 types. But very good overall.” –Chimera
● “Good high end extension, a warm and full midrange and decent bass extension. Imaging is precise and the perceived staging is wide. What could be better?” –Hirsch (refers to 1940s and pre-1953 construction tubes only) 
 ● “I've tried the 6SN7WGTA. They tend to have a very dry sound. Midrange is lean. Extension at highs and lows is pretty good. The exact sound may depend on year of manufacture. I had a set from 1952 that I used regularly when I had the ZOTL, but later years exacerbated the issue with dryness of the sound. I heard the same dryness with the Supra, and didn't explore these tubes much further. They can be a decent tube, and might work well as output tubes if a tube with a full midrange was used as the gain tube.” –Hirsch
 ● “Another tube that I didn't really like with the R10, but am enjoying a lot with the PS-1 is the Syl 6SN7WGT (brown base). Clean and dynamic. In some amps, with some headphones, these tubes can sound dry in the midrange. However, the PS-1 seems to handle them well.” –Hirsch
 ● “Another good tube by Sylvania, but the price of these are climbing beyond what I'd pay for them. If you can get them cheap, they're definitely worth an audition. Presentation is big and strong, particularly in the bass region. Top is a little sibilant, but not terribly so. [refers to WGT brown base]” –Len
 ● “IME the 6SN7WGT is a very fast tube with great highs and tight lows. However, I've found a dryness in the mids that was sometimes too dry, and I've never kept them in an amp for very long. A good tube that hasn't been to my taste. A friend of mine loves them as output tubes when using his maxed-out PPX-6SN7 with the PS-1, so I'm probably going to revisit them soon. [refers to WGT brown base]” –Hirsch
 ● “The 6SN7WGT and WGTA (sounds very similar) are good tubes, but they aren't on par with the earlier 6SN7W tubes (any of the three versions). It is the midrange that is lacking: a bit lean and diffuse compared to the full sound of the 6SN7W. The treble isn't as sparkling either, although the 6SN7WGT is still great in the upper registers. I actually like the midbass of the WGT/WGTA better though, as I find it a little tighter. But overall, it doesn't compare to the terrific Syl 6SN7W.” –Len
● “this tube offered much wider soundstage and sweetened the midrange nicely. It did nothing to improve the bass, which remained thin and sloppy. [refers to Syl 6SN7GTA]” –Tuberoller
● “6SN7GT, Sylvania Green Label, nice even sound, not harsh, smooth, with good detail resolution and bandwidth extension.” –scottpaul_iu
 ● “6SN7GTB, Sylvania Green Label, rich harmonic structure, good midrange, decent soundstage. This would be a good NOS tube to get as they are fairly easy to find and not to pricey right now.” –scottpaul_iu
 ● “6SN7WGT, Sylvania Green Label, Top Getter, “silver top” , very clean sound with great detail resolution and speed. Bass can be a little tubby and not well resolved and midrange a little congested.” –scottpaul_iu
 ● “6SN7WGTA, Sylvania black base green label, clean and fast with great drive, good bass.” –scottpaul_iu
 ● “The WGT and WGTA versions possess the Sylvania trademark sound, but they are not as airy, are more aggressive sounding, but has a slightly thinner mid and highs. [when compared to the 1952 Syl 6SN7GT]” –Len [in personal correspondence with author]
 ● “First - there is only ONE Chrome-dome. That is a 1950's 6SN7GT with mid-sized bottle that has the getter almost entirely covering the glass, hence the term 'chrome-dome' was coined to describe it. It is a fabulous sounding tube, close to as good as the '52 Syl, but extremely rare as it had such an awesome rep early on in the tube renaissance that it is pretty much long been absorbed into private collection where very few pop out. Unfortunately, due to the legendary status of the real chrome dome and it's virtual disappearance from the market, sellers have been calling virtually any top getter Sylvania by that name - despite those tubes not having a real chrome-dome at all. There are a few versions of the WGT, and the WGTA has etched markings on tyhe glass. The GTA came in two versions during the 50's with different plates, one hugely good sounding, the other not so great. There are numerous GTB's that range in sound from ok to not so great, but the GTB has nothing to do sonically with the others, and really aren't worth seeking out.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)

*Sylvania Yellow Label 6SN7GTB (1960s vintage)* * [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, top small getter, yellow labels, black base]_
● “Clean sound with good harmonic structure, excellent midrange and bass, high frequency a bit recessed and nice soundstage and ambience. Very good driver tube.” –Chimera
● “I've seen the Gold (yellow) lettering on the Syl 6SN7GTB. It's a tube that has good tonal balance, but IMO doesn't reach the same level of detail as the 6SN7GT.” –Hirsch
 ● “Syl 6SN7GTBs are from the 60's and come in several iterations. IME, it's a good value tube with lots of slam, but lacks the refinement of the earlier tubes. While the resolution is good, it just doesn't demonstrate the finesse of 1940's tubes. Hear a TS RP and you'll know what I'm talking about Most GTBs had similar characteristics.” –Len
● "Surprisingly refined sounding - not bad considering the bargain prices these can be picked up for. Great detail and air. Cymbals have a very nice _shimmer_ to them with this tube. Very very slightly dry sounding. Not too much impact. Bass seems a tad moderated with this tube compared to, say, a Ken Rad vt231. Great extended decay on notes. Laid-back sounding." -adhoc

*Sylvania 6SN7W * * [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, top getter, metal (with black/green labels) OR black bases (with green/white labels), tall (metal and plastic bases) or short bottles (plastic only bases)] _
● “Excellent low level detail resolution, very immediate sounding with a lot of Slam. There are three types of these tubes, two large bottle types, one has a metal ring and one smaller bottle with s smaller plates structure. The smaller one has better low level detail and the larger ones have more slam.” – Chimera
● “Sylvania 6SN7W short-bottle are similar to the Tung-Sol RP, but more forceful in their presentation” –Glod
● “Syl 6SN7W tall bottles, especially the metal base, are always more microphonic (not to mention less reliable). Before you think I don't like these Sylvanias, let me say their sound is huge and gorgeous. I don't find them dark at all, but rather very lively, forward, and big sounding. If only they were less microphonic and less resistant to arc-over (I hate it when $100+ tubes die prematurely), I'd have no reservations recommending this tube if you need to liven up your system. IME, the 6SN7A and 6SN7W metal base are the same exact tubes. Construction is identical and sound is the same to me .... just print differences at the very top of the tube.” –Len
 ● “The Syl 6SN7W tall bottles - both metal and black base - throw a huge soundscape with lots of heft and slam.” –Len
 ● “Hirch's opinion of these tubes probably differ from mine, but this is what I think of the Syl 6SN7W metal bases: It's a big big sounding tube that throws the most expansive soundstage of any 6SN7. Good bass, lush mids, very extended treble. They really do add a "sparkle" to the highs that is unlike any other 6SN7. Problem for me is this sparkle gets fatiguing after a while. Triangles and high hats that were initially amazing get a bit grating. The big, lush sound is also a double edged sword, and I often find myself preferring the finesse of other tubes like the TS RP. Syl 6SN7W metal is an exciting tube, no doubt. It's just a little too much for me. I do encourage people give it a shot if their wallets are deep enough (obtain it soon as prices aren't getting any cheaper). My personal preference is just that - personal; I'm sure this tube will captivate a great many other listeners.” –Len
 ● "Sylvania 6SN7W has strong bass and is full, but I wouldn't say it's romantic or warm (though it is very musical IMO)." -Len [in personal correspondence with author]
 ● "The Syl. 6SN7W metal can have an amazing soundstage but also can be prone to a little harshness in the higher frequencies." -RobN [in personal correspondence with author]
 ● “The W metal base is full, big sounding, euphonic, very magical - if you get the right pair. They are more problematic than any other 6SN7, can arc over easily, can be very microphonic, and the risks are as high as the price. When they are used and drop in transconductance by about 20%, they sound dull. Magic is gone.” –Robert H

*Telefunken 6SN7GTA** [PHOTO HERE]*
 [GT: ??? GTA: top getter, white labels on glass, black base, round mica with diamond points scattered around it]
_*GT:* This tube certainly lives up to its ‘legendary’ status. Why? *Because it never existed.* 6SN7s were NEVER made by Telefunken. 
 This tube is always sourced from Philips Holland (which in turn sourced from 1960s East German or Russian factories) Also occasionally rebranded as Ultron and Hoges.
*GTA:* This tube, while labelled ‘Made in West Germany’, was almost certainly not made in West Germany. Most who purchase this tube have been disappointed with its sound, describing it as ‘boring’ and ‘dry’ (AA)._

*Tung-Sol 6SN7GT 'Round Plate'** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[round mica [?-1942] or oval mica [1942-46] (no audible difference), 2 U-shaped structures on mica, thin keyhole shaped plates, mostly with dark glass, silver labels]_
● “Tung Sol round plate 6SN7GT: what can I say? This tube in front of a pair of Sylvania's seems to do it all. Exquisite detail, strong bass, glorious midrange and extended highs.” –Hirsch 
 ● “Those are the best of the Tung Sol's. A stunning tube. Highly detailed, full midrange with superb bass.” -Hirsch
● “If you like more speed and agility, change the Ken Rad for a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT (round-plates)” –Glod
● “I keep hearing TS RP are microphonic, but of the dozen or so pairs I've owned, that's never proven the case.” –Len
 ● “TS RP are my favorite 6SN7s, bar none. They do everything right, and the only complaint I hear about them (other then microphonics which is contrary to my experience) is that they are linear to the point of being boring If you're using a SET, nothing expresses their midrange beauty like a TS RP.” –Len
 ● “I think I prefer the TS RP which IMO sound 'lusher' than the 6SN7W metals [metal bases]” –Rob N
 ● “The TS RP, on the other hand, doesn't possess as large a presentation [as the Syl 6SN7W] but is a lot more refined and seductive.” –Len
 ● “I try not to use the soundstage word when talking about headphones but using the TS RP is presenting a not only wider but deeper and much clearer soundstage with the senns. than either the Sylvania VT-231 or the KenRad VT-231. I still think the bass is more pronounced with the KenRad, but the more I use the TS I'm starting to think the bass is better defined through them.(the TS) The midrange and treble is by far the best I've heard through my system. So sweet, smooth, and still with great detail.” –tom hankins
 ● “TS RP simply has the best separation of space - with accurate timber and timing. The midrange is magical, especially when mated with SETs [Single-Ended Triodes].” –Len
 ● “The most musical tube is the Tung Sol round plate. It's simply the best balance of everything a tube can offer IMHO." -Len [in personal correspondence with author]
● "This tube seems to have a slightly dry signature when compared directly to the Syl '52. It seems to combine the best traits of many tubes - the bass and impact of the KR VT231, the clarity of the RT VT231 and most of the musicality of the Syl '52 with unparalled detail. This tube makes music, any music, beautiful to listen to - it certainly lives up to its reputation." -adhoc

*Tung-Sol White Label 6SN7GT (1940-50s vintage)** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[made between 1948 and 1956. structure is completely different from the abovementioned Round Plate GTs - these have grey 'T'-plates and a bottom getter. rectangular getter holder. tall bottle with black bases and white labels. these resemble GTBs (the next tube below) except for the bottom getter.]_
 ● “Concurrently with the last days of the TS R-P there was a version with regular ribbed plates - that could have been grey OR black, and has the notorious round side mica spacers termed "mouse ears". A very, very good sounding tube. There was a later version that squared ofc those ears - still the same tube, then they dropped the ears all together and the plates were always grey - still a super sounding tube. But it's not commonly found, and unless it has the mouse ears, people often mistake it for Russian - good for me, I love the tube and pick 'em up at dirrt cheap prices and get better performance that most of the big buck stuff.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)

*Tung-Sol White Label 6SN7GTB (1960s vintage)** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[3 versions: *a.* top D-getter, tall bottle *b.* top O-getter, tall bottle *c.* short bottle. ALL VERSIONS have triangular black plates, black base, white labels.] [There are also a number of Tungsol branded GTB's with flat ribbed plates that are rebrands from other makers, particularly RCA. All Tungsol GTB's after the tri-plate short bottle version are rebrands of inferior quality.]_
● “Very fast, clean and dynamic. Excellent bandwidth, good harmonic structure. A little too analytical and it sounds better mixed with some of the more musical tubes Very good driver tube and likes to be mixed with RCA bottom getter 6SN7.” -Chimera
● “The GTBs are more dry in the upper registers and lack the refined, airy, grainless mids and highs of the earlier round plates. Bass is pretty solid and controlled.” –Len
● “The Tung Sol 6SN7GTB is a nice tube. Good clear sound.” –Hirsch
 ● “The first version - tri-plate/D-getter tall bottle - was actually the same tube as the identically constructed WGT and WGTA, I have seen them mixed together in a factory bulk pack with identical date & batch codes - so they are all the same tube. Bonus, because it's a very nice sounding tube and because some unknowledgeable people look down on GTB's, they are easier to find & less expensive. Well balanced, rounded tone, reasonably good and tight bass, the highs are smooth and not excessively bright. A good all round tube.” –Robert H
 ● “Next was a version, also with tall bottle, but with O-getter - I find this one to sound virtually the same as the D-getter version, there may be some slight sonic differences for the obsessive types with too much time on their hands. Personally, I would rather listen to the music than worry about micro-differences of this magnitude. They are cheaper yet and a good buy.” –Robert H
 ● “Short bottle, tri-plate, early 1960's. Similar sonically to the earlier ones, a bit less open, still a very good tube.” –Robert H
 ● “But here's an inside tip - Tungsol late 50's and early 60's 6SN7GTB are exactly the same as the WGT and WGTA, except they have a black base - and nobody wants GTB's, so they usually go cheap. They are exactly the same tube, Tungsol simply relabelled WGT's as GTB's to fill GTB orders. I know this, I've had a bulk factory box that had tubes with the exact same date and batch codes - but were labelled either WGT, GTB, WGTA, or even just GT. All identical and come from the same production run. If you see some Tungsol GTB's, and CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT's, grab some, they are still an excellent value.” –Robert H

*Tung-Sol 6SN7WGT* * [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, brown base, top getter] _
● “Sounds similar to the Tung-Sol VT-231, but not as clean” -Chimera
 ● “But here's an inside tip - Tungsol late 50's and early 60's 6SN7GTB are exactly the same as the WGT and WGTA, except they have a black base - and nobody wants GTB's, so they usually go cheap. They are exactly the same tube, Tungsol simply relabelled WGT's as GTB's to fill GTB orders. I know this, I've had a bulk factory box that had tubes with the exact same date and batch codes - but were labelled either WGT, GTB, WGTA, or even just GT. All identical and come from the same production run. If you see some Tungsol GTB's, and CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT's, grab some, they are still an excellent value.” –Robert H

*Tung-Sol 6SN7WGTA* * [PHOTO HERE]*
_['triangular' black plates, brown base, white labels, tall bottle, top getter]_
● “Very good bandwidth, bass, detail and soundstage” -Chimera
 ● “But here's an inside tip - Tungsol late 50's and early 60's 6SN7GTB are exactly the same as the WGT and WGTA, except they have a black base - and nobody wants GTB's, so they usually go cheap. They are exactly the same tube, Tungsol simply relabelled WGT's as GTB's to fill GTB orders. I know this, I've had a bulk factory box that had tubes with the exact same date and batch codes - but were labelled either WGT, GTB, WGTA, or even just GT. All identical and come from the same production run. If you see some Tungsol GTB's, and CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT's, grab some, they are still an excellent value.” –Robert H



*- 3. NEW STOCK TUBES*

*NEW STOCK – Electro-Harmonix EH6SN7** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, black base, black labels on glass, top getter]_
● “The Electro Harmonix were the most dynamic in the MPX3 . The Bass is also the best and biggest of the three; quite detailed and tight. Midrange is also full of detail air and transparency up and down the range. Gets a little too bright in my system at times, but generally the most fun and involving tubes to listen to so far for me.” –bobjew
 ● “With the Electro Harmonix 6SN7's in current production, there is no need to suffer.” –Hirsch
 ● “They are fast-paced tubes with a bit of a heavy bass and paired with a slower driver tube the combo sounds quite nice.” –donovansmith
● “I came across a new 6SN7 tube by Electro-Harmonix and it sounds great. This tube seems to be a very good copy of the Sylvania VT231.It has killer bass and an excellent midrange and vocal performance. It warms up quickly and is not noisy or microphonic at all. It is an excellent value at $10.00 a pop. […] The build quality is high and they are very, very closely matched as tested on my tube tester. These get a "best buy" recommendation from Tuberoller. Try them before dropping big bucks on the Ken-Rads or CBS Brown or Red based tubes.” –Tuberoller
● “The biggest finding is that the Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 tube is about as good as a Syl 6SN7GTB.” –scottpaul_iu

*NEW STOCK – Electro-Harmonix EH6SN7 Gold Pins** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[gold pins, brown base, otherwise identical to non-gold pin version]_
● “Aside from the obvious differences between the tubes– gold plated pins and the new goldish colored base; they look exactly the same. The model number is the same. The box has the same graphics with the addition of "gold pin" and printed in gold instead of black. Not surprisingly, they also sound very similar.” –bobjew

*NEW STOCK - Sovtek 6SN7** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black base, black labels on glass, bottom getter (not usually visible) with 'flaying saucer' getter holder] [known to be relabelled amperex (with brown bases)]_
● “First off, forget about the Sovtek 6NS7's as they sound really lousy. I was at the electronics store for something else and they just happened to have a stock of them for 5.00 each and thought I'd give them a try. The sound was flaccid and weak compared to any of the others. Weak Bass and very little HF air. Tried one of these as the driver in combination with the others and their sound was diminished.” -bobjew
● This tube has an _extremely_ forward and big bass, a moderate amount of slam, a too-rich sounding midrange and slightly recessed highs. Mids are a bit shouty-sounding. Where this tube fails, and fails miserably, is details and separation. When compared to the Syl 1952 6SN7GT / KenRad vt231 / Raytheon vt231, everything seems hopelessly smeared. There is less 'air' around instruments than both the 1952 and RT.” –adhoc 



*- 4. 5692 TYPE TUBES*

 An interesting anecdote: the 5692 type tube was first developed by RCA (but RCA never actually _made_ them!) after the US Army Artillery Corps requested a tube that could stand up to the _immense_ trauma that came with repeated firing. Apparently, large field pieces would chew through tubes in no time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5692s are characterised by their extremely-short bottle form factor, vastly oversized plates and extremely liberal use of support posts. Almost all 5692s have small top getters and double micas on top.

 *Fact 1:* The 5692 was patented in 1949, but was not produced en masse till around 1951. Hence this would imply that there is no such thing as a 1940s 5692. 

 *Fact 2:* The widely advertised of ‘10000 hrs life’ for the 5692 is just advertising baloney. If one would observe carefully, the 5692’s specs differ quite greatly from the 6SN7s – far lower plate voltage and max dissipation rates are given. It can be inferred that this conservatism in its ratings contributes directly to the 5692’s purported long life. Hence, if you intend to use the 5692 as a drop-in for a 6SN7 in an amp running 6SN7 voltages and currents, be prepared to have your 5692 last no longer than a normal 6SN7 at best.

 *Fact 3:* By the late 1960s, tube manufacturers were relabelling tubes willy-nilly in an attempt to minimise their losses in what was essentially a dying market. There are many instances of 6SN7GTBs/WGTs/ being labelled as 5692s and passed on to the market. The vice-versa applied too; 5692s were relabelled as other 6SN7 types. Hence when verifying potential 5692 purchases look out for the 5 extraneous free-standing (ie. not attached to a grid/plate) support posts.

*Fact 4:* Only 3 American companies are definitely known to have made 5692s – General Electric (“RCA” 5692s were made by GE) [red bases – colour varies from a cherry-red to a deep red easily confused with brown], CBS/Hytron [brown bases] and Sylvania [black bases]. Raytheon purportedly made a small batch of brown-based 5692 [the CK5692 – apparently the mica shape was slightly different from normal CBS/Hytrons], but as CBS/Hytrons were _known_ to be relabelled as Raytheons, this remains a mystery. *If you know the answer to this, let me know...*





*Fact 5:* There is only one known non-American make of this tube: Swedish Standard Electric 33S30, which can be distinguished by the micas and the plates always having a serial number scratched on.


*5692, CBS-Hytron** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black plates, top getter, brown base] [known to be relabelled as Raytheon 5692 and Raytheon 6SN7WGT]_
● “Fast, good dynamics, lot of air and great timbre” –Chimera
● “WOW!! this is one of the incredible tube swaps I have ever done. This tube improved everything greatly. amazing improvements in detail, imaging, soundstage depth and bass tautness.” –Tuberoller
 ● “The RCA or CBS 5692 is a good tube, but doesn't get to the top of the list. It has much weaker bass, is very nice tonally, and the highs are a bit recessed.” –Robert H

*5692, RCA Red Base (made by GE)* * [PHOTO HERE]*
_[grey plates, top getter, red base, 1950s vintage - white labels, 1960s vintage - orange labels] [known to be relabelled as GE 5692]_
● “Very warm sweet sound, great on voices and jazz” –Chimera
 ● "RCA 5692 red base. I finally found out why people like this tube. It hasn't sounded good in any other 6SN7 amp I've used. In the Wheatfield, it's got plenty of detail and a nice "lush" tubey sound." -Hirsch [in _Tuberolling the Wheatfield HA2_ thread]
● "Warm. Lush. Romantic - these words spring to mind immediately. Better air than even the TS RP. Seperation and detail are on par with the best of them imo. Slightly tubby bass. Good impact. Amazing with jazz and pianos. Never harsh sounding." -adhoc
 ● ”The RCA or CBS 5692 is a good tube, but doesn't get to the top of the list. It has much weaker bass, is very nice tonally, and the highs are a bit recessed.” –Robert H

*5692, Sylvania** [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black base, top getter, yellow 'Sylvania' label on glass] [RUMOURED TO BE RELABELLED Syl 6SN7GTBs. BEWARE! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




]_
● “5692, Sylvania, very fast , good bass and dynamics, lot of air and great timbre. My favorite tube in my current system.” -scottpaul_iu
 ● “All the black base Syl 5692's I've seen are rebranded GTB'S - THEY DON'T EVEN LOOK LIKE 5692'S! But there are real Sylvania 5692's that have the 5692 construction and brown bases, these are the ones I suspect the comment refers to. It's interesting that such an ordinary sounding tube caught on in such a big way with some audiophiles despite it's poor sonics. It first came to attention in the 1980's when the 6SL7 version, the 5691, was used in an MFA preamp. The 5691's good performance in that unit and it's cool red base caught the interest of some 6SN7 users, particularly in the Orient - where most of the MFA production was sold, hence where the buzz first caught on. The 5692 then started to get a bit of circulation, at which point Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note UK had amassed a sizeable stash of them and, finding he could get outrageously high prices for them from his bespoke customers due to their rarity and the unique red bases, proclaimed them "the best" - conveniently to support the prices he was charging. It all caught on from there and, like so much of audio, has no bearing to reality.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)




*- 5. VTV’s TUBE RANKINGS*

 This section is included for informational purposes and for the sake of completeness - I also find it interesting to compare my taste in tubes with others. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Please do NOT use this section as your SOLE reference. This is why:

*Vacuum Tube Valley (VTV) have in the past been accused of a conflict of interest as they also sell tubes. Suspiciously, after this review came out, VTV suddenly had stock of all the top-rated tubes. Some of the top-rated tubes were previously unknown and unloved AND stocked only by VTV.*

 1. Mullard CV-181: 97 / Sylvania 6SN7W ('40's vintage): 97 
 3. Raytheon 6SN7WGT: 96 
 4. Sylvania 1950s top getter Sylvania 6SN7GT: 95 
 6. GE 6SN7GTA: 94 
 7. Brimar CV1988 (brown base, 1950s): 93
 8. Brimar CV1988 (brown base, 1972) / CBS 5692 / RCA 5692 (red base, 1950s) / Tung-Sol VT-231 (round black plates, smoked bottle 1945): 92

 “I questioned the independence of the VTV crowd quite loudly on Tubes Asylum and got a whole lot of deletions and grief for it - they are a sponsor, after all. But not only did VTV coincidentally suddenly have stock of their top rated ones for huge prices when the issue came out, all of a sudden Kevin Deal turned up a big stash of the Raytheon WGT's that were second on the list.

 But despite those misgivings, I must admit I have found their rankings to have stood the test of time, while there can always be debate and quibbling about subjective rankings, overall, it's pretty close to the mark.

 I just wish VTV didn't have this awful smell about it.” – Robert H. (in personal correspondence)





*Version History:*
 1.0 - 140505 - Original thread started
 1.0.1 - 140505 - Minor correction made: 'CHY' replaced 'JHY' for VT-231 designation. On Hirsch's advice, point on CBS/Hytron vs Hytron added. On RobN's advice added some more similar tubes after further research.
 1.0.2 - 150505 – Have completely overhauled the 6SN7 substitute section
 1.1.0 - 150505 - MAJOR ADDITION: indicated which tubes I have PHOTOS for. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 1.1.1 - 170505 - Corrected some minor spelling errors.
 1.1.2 - 200505 - Added some more opinions. Added photos for the CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT.
 ---
 1.2.0 – 220505 – MAJOR ADDITION: Opinions from another thread added.
 1.2.1 - 270505 - Some additional opinions added.
 1.2.2 - 290505 - Minor details regarding the 5692 RCA Red Base’s label colors added.
 ---
 1.3.0 - 020605 - Major overhaul of tube descriptions done. Photos added for Syl non-1952 6SN7GT, Syl 5692, RCA 6SN7GTA Side Getter, GE 6SN7GTA.
 1.3.1 - 040605 - Added some opinions on the TS RP.
 1.3.2 - 080605 - Corrections made to spelling/grammar.
 1.3.3 - 130605 - More spelling/grammar corrections and tube descriptions have been finally completed
 1.3.4 - 180605 - Opinions on Syl Yellow Label GTB & RCA 5692 added.
 ---
 1.4.0 – 250605 - TONS of opinions from selected Audio Asylum members _[Robert H added for now, Jack G and Chris Garrett coming soon]_. Tube descriptions for MANY tubes beefed up for greater clarity. Special 5692 ‘facts’ section added. Section 5 on VTV’s rankings added. Added under section ‘substitutes’ tube types 6SN7GTC and GTY. Added section on the Mullard CV181. Added some more tubes to the fray – CBS/Hytron 6SN7GTB, Raytheon 6SN7WGT, Telefunken 6SN7GT/GTA.
 1.4.1 – 260605 – Added the Amperex 6SN7GT. Beefed up the small section on 7N7 – there’s a minor history lesson there now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 1.4.2 – 030705 – Added more details on the Telefunken 6SN7GTA. Found pictures for it too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 1.4.3 - 170705 - ADDED a LOT more details to the descriptions for a LOT more tubes. Now it's might even be possible to identify tubes without photos! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 1.4.4 - 141205 - Added the Tung Sol 6SN7GT White Label to the list. (Thanks nmculbreth!)
*2.0.0* – 060606 – MAJOR changes made. Lots of new stuff by Robert H. added. Enjoy people. This project is far from over.


----------



## adhoc

*some background on this thread:*

 i've only recently been converted to the 'light side' of tubed amplification ( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). for someone who has been a solid-state advocate his entire life, the avalanche of knowledge that came with my conversion was, to say the least, extremely daunting. 

 top getters vs side getters, GTA vs GTB, t-plate vs round-plate, black plates vs grey plates - all these were extremely confusing to a newbie like me. add to this the *fact *that most of the information regarding well-regarding tubes were scattered far and wide over *n* threads with *n^n* pages and well.. you get the idea.

 enter *The 6SN7 Reference Thread* - here I have condensed all of what i consider the information needed to make an informed decision on which 6SN7 tube (or a similar variant) to choose.

 I have tried as much as possible to avoid quoting impressions which result from a _*mixture *_of 6SN7s, but i have made exceptions for posts which clearly opine over a particular tube's qualities. 

*tubed people of head-fi, this is my gift to you. enjoy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*

_*
 please do continue to post all further opinions on tubes you may have. i'll add them to the list. please do inform me too if i've gotten anything wrong.*_


----------



## tom hankins

With all the amps out there using this tube. This needs to be a Sticky.


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## e_dawg

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant, adhoc.


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## Rob N

Great idea 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A few things you might want to add:-

 You can also use a B65 made by Marconi/Osram/GEC which has either a metal or plastic base.

 The Telefunken 6SN7GTA commands high prices but IMO doesn't sound as good as the older 6SN7W/GT/VT231 types

 As with the ECC32 in some applications you may be able to use the ECC34 which has lower mu than a 6SN7,and also the ECC33


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## adhoc

ver1.0.2 - did a *major *overhaul of the 6SN7 substitutes section.


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## purk

Many thanks man. I really appreciate the info. Being a new owner of Single Power amp, this thread is very helpful.


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## adhoc

*MAJOR ADDITION - indicated which tubes i have close-up colour photos of. *this should help people confirm tube types and might even prevent attempts at fraud - conmen rarely get _all _the prints correct when attempting to counterfeit tubes.

 it would be nice if someone could host the photos for me though. free photo-hosting services would definitely NOT be able to handle the throughput for what i have in mind. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: wait.. wasnt head-fi supposed to implement a photo-hosting service? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: to the mod who gave me a custom title - *a BIG thank you!* i feel, well, really special now.


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## Dhw

While I probably won't own a tube amp anytime soon (besides my Traynor guitar tube amp...mmm...), I still think this is an impressive compilation! Great job! (informative postings like this keep me hooked on this site!)


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 EDIT: to the mod who gave me a custom title - a BIG thank you! i feel, well, really special now. 
 

that would be the boss man,Jude.

 only a 'supermod" can do custom titles and he is the only one with _that_ title. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 EDIT: wait.. wasnt head-fi supposed to implement a photo-hosting service? 
 

There IS a picture hosting site and found on the main forum page


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## ayt999

so what about the 6SN7A, 13D2, CV1986, CV1988, CV3627, and 6N8S ? there might be more, but that's what I have offhand.

 also, maybe the 5692 under the tube types should be in bold like the others.


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## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ayt999* 
_so what about the 6SN7A, 13D2, CV1986, CV1988, CV3627, and 6N8S ? there might be more, but that's what I have offhand.

 also, maybe the 5692 under the tube types should be in bold like the others. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

done. even threw in the 6H8C for good measure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks rickcr42 for the heads-up regarding photo galleries - i cant believe i've overlooked that link for so long!


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 Thanks rickcr42 for the heads-up regarding photo galleries - i cant believe i've overlooked that link for so long 
 

All good.I "lose" my glasses all the time 

 "anybody see my glasses ?"

 Once the giggling starts I realise I am wearing them


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## SHVentus

Adhoc,

 Great post. Just wish you had posted earlier. Great contribution. Thanks.


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## KenW

Wow, what a post! Singlepower owners must be happy to see this!

 Of course, those of us who own the Raptor won't benefit but surely someone will step up to the plate and do something similar for us?? C'mon...don't be shy.


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## Audio Addict

Has anyone tried these 6SN7s. In talking with Kevin today, I broke down and ordered a pair.

Pope Philips Holland


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## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio Addict* 
_Has anyone tried these 6SN7s. In talking with Kevin today, I broke down and ordered a pair.

Pope Philips Holland_

 

Kevin must have scored those on one of his tube hunting trips to Europe. What did he say about them compared to other tubes?

 I did get to see his humongous custom tube tester at his place, and I doubt any other tube sellers have anything close to test tubes.


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## SHVentus

Are they in Kevin's private stash, or are they available to the open public?


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## adhoc

oops. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the popes *ARE *available to the general public. sorry all for the confusion - my bad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but.. *$135* for a SINGLE 'platinum grade' [ie extremely closely matched triodes] pope 6sn7?! _mein gott!!_ this had _better _be good.


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## ayt999

are we talking about the Pope 6SN7GT? it isn't in his secret stash section so should be available to everyone, although you have to pay more if you don't have something from him that uses the tube.


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## palchiu

Thanks for this post!!! 

 Very helpful with my PPX3-6SN7 tube rolling.


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## Audio Addict

I have an AES-3 DJH preamp purchased from Kevin that uses the 6SN7GTs so I was able to purchase them at the buyer club rate, which is substantially lower. The price was the same as SinglePower Audio wanted for a CBS-Hytron so it didn't seem that out of line.

 Actually Kevin mentioned they were found in South American. He has people on the lookout all across it world it seems.


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## Glod

A very fine job you have done there adhoc. It is very nice to see some recent attention to the 6SN7. As your research shows, most was thought and written a couple of years ago.

 I think one of the best sides of your compilation of 6SN7 views and impressions, is that it is easy to compare peoples views. IME, views need to be related to what music and equipment people are listening to and it is always a healthy advice to read what several persons have written. And then in the end, it is of course a matter of taste, too.


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## adhoc

major addition: linked opinions from another thread.


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## grox

adhoc: I didn't realise that my image and my comments would end up in this thread and in your gallery. Oh well... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (edit:grammar)


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## fr4c

whoaa, awesome. thanks for the post adhoc.


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## adhoc

major update done - tube descriptions have been _completely_ overhauled. added some new photos. check version history for details.


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## adhoc

update made. this should be the last update for some time for this thread.


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## adhoc

...and i was wrong.

*MAJOR changes have been made to the original post;* _bump_ for a vastly improved reference thread.


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## Rob N

One thing I've just noticed,Sylvania 6SN7W's with metal base can also have green printing on the base as well as black





 Pic by Len


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## adhoc

thanks for that RobN - would you mind if I added that to my photo stash?

 anyway, FWIW, i've seen metal bases with green printing being marked 6SN7*A*.


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## Rob N

No problem


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## Hirsch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob N* 
_One thing I've just noticed,Sylvania 6SN7W's with metal base can also have green printing on the base as well as black_

 

It actually goes far beyond that. Metal base tubes with 6SN7W on the base have been known to have 6SN7A on the bottle. 6SN7A's have been known to have 6SN7GT on the base, etc. I think I've got as many metal base tubes that have inconsistent labeling between bottle and base as those that are in agreement.


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## Hirsch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* 
_anyway, FWIW, i've seen metal bases with green printing being marked 6SN7*A*. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The 6SN7A is actually a slightly different variant of the 6SN7 than the 6SN7W, but I've forgotten what the differences actually are.


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## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* 
_The 6SN7A is actually a slightly different variant of the 6SN7 than the 6SN7W, but I've forgotten what the differences actually are._

 

google is my friend. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




_"There are two versions of the metal base Sylvania, one designated 6SN7A and the other 6SN7W. Often the 'A' version is mislabelled 'W' just to make it more confusing. 
 The 'A' is a taller bottle and the bottom mica extends just on top of the metal base. It has copper grid posts. The 'W' is shorter and as a result the bottom mica is recessed inside the base ring. Regular grid posts. The tall bottle 'A' is much rarer, but that is truly splitting hairs as they are both extremely difficult to find."_


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## Hirsch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* 
_google is my friend. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"There are two versions of the metal base Sylvania, one designated 6SN7A and the other 6SN7W. Often the 'A' version is mislabelled 'W' just to make it more confusing. 
 The 'A' is a taller bottle and the bottom mica extends just on top of the metal base. It has copper grid posts. The 'W' is shorter and as a result the bottom mica is recessed inside the base ring. Regular grid posts. The tall bottle 'A' is much rarer, but that is truly splitting hairs as they are both extremely difficult to find."




_

 

Google may be a friend, but the labels on the tubes are a pain in the butt, as they really don't match the description. If this is accurate, I've got some "A"s mislabeled as "W"s as well as the reverse. I suspect that this description of the differences is not complete, as I believe there were also metal base GT's, making at least three possible Syl metal base variants. There is no real correlation between bottle height and tube type that I've found.


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## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* 
_Google may be a friend, but the labels on the tubes are a pain in the butt, as they really don't match the description. If this is accurate, I've got some "A"s mislabeled as "W"s as well as the reverse. I suspect that this description of the differences is not complete, as I believe there were also metal base GT's, making at least three possible Syl metal base variants. There is no real correlation between bottle height and tube type that I've found._

 

Hirsch, Adhoc,I have a MPX3 comming from Mikhail on Tuesday or Wednesday and I have been reading with much intrest all of the threads on tubes.

 Question: So from your quote finding the right tube is going to be hard..But is there also any info as far as price i.e. whats a fair price on xyz tubes so we tube newbies don't get taken to the cleaners.


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## Covenant

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* 
_Hirsch, I have a MPX3 comming from Mikhail on Tuesday or Wednesday and I have been reading with much intrest all of the threads on tubes._

 

MPX3's are evil like that aren't they? I'm planning on buying one too, and suddenly _vacuum tubes_ become an interesting subject... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got me spending $200 on a matched quad of Hytron 6SN7's too. Evil.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Covenant* 
_MPX3's are evil like that aren't they? I'm planning on buying one too, and suddenly vacuum tubes become an interesting subject... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Got me spending $200 on a matched quad of Hytron 6SN7's too. Evil._

 

I hope the tube rolling will add to the hobby aspect af headphone listening.


----------



## Covenant

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* 
_I hope the tube rolling will add to the hobby aspect af headphone listening._

 

Or the wallet-crushing aspect. I can already see myself pouncing on the first set of Tung-Sol 6SN7GT's i see, anywhere


----------



## Hirsch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* 
_Question: So from your quote finding the right tube is going to be hard..But is there also any info as far as price i.e. whats a fair price on xyz tubes so we tube newbies don't get taken to the cleaners._

 

Tube prices are rather volatile. Further, the right price can depend on a number of factors. Has the tube been fully tested? Is it new or used? Will the dealer stand behind the tube if it fails?

 I've got a pair of tube testers that I use to check all tubes that I get. I would be very careful buying from eBay without these. There are some good sellers on eBay, who will provide test results on tubes that they are selling. However, buying from known good sellers is more expensive (once people figure out they are good, they get repeat business).

 For 6SN7's, tubeseller.com usually has decent pricing that is reflective of what market price normally is.

 I can't really provide a price in dollars for any given tube. For example, TSRP's normally have been going around $200/pr on eBay, but that seems to be rising lately, and $275 would be reasonable. However, I just saw a quad go for just over $200, so who knows? The quad was used (value down), one tube had missing locator pin (value drops), and I don't remember if there were test results posted (if not, another value dropper), so the final price may have been right...or not. If those tubes were near the end of their useful life, then even that price was too high. If the tubes tested near NOS, they were a steal.


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## Rob N

Also having an original box (in good condition) can push up the price.
 The most expensive 6SN7 type I've seen is the Swedish Standard,a rare tube which goes for $650+ a pair 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've seen apair of 6SN7W with metalbase in original military boxes go for over $400.


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## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob N* 
_Also having an original box (in good condition) can push up the price.
 The most expensive 6SN7 type I've seen is the Swedish Standard,a rare tube which goes for $650+ a pair 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've seen apair of 6SN7W with metalbase in original military boxes go for over $400._

 

Wow:.... I had no idea, that tubes were so expensive. Thanks guys


----------



## Len

Mark, decent NOS 6SN7s can be had for as little as $20 a pair, with many "premium" pairs occupying the $100-150 range. There are some extremely rare tubes like the Swedish Standard that will fetch top dollar, but you really needn't these tubes for great performance (fact is, I don't really like the Swede 33S30).


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## adhoc

looking at construction alone, imo the 'premium' 33S30 suspiciously resembles a 5692-type tube.


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## Len

The 3SS30 is indeed a 5692, specially built for the Swedish military.


----------



## markmaxx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Len* 
_Mark, decent NOS 6SN7s can be had for as little as $20 a pair, with many "premium" pairs occupying the $100-150 range. There are some extremely rare tubes like the Swedish Standard that will fetch top dollar, but you really needn't these tubes for great performance (fact is, I don't really like the Swede 33S30)._

 

I went to Hirsch's link www.tubeseller.com and there are some Premium 6SN7s in the $115.00 to $375.00 range in deed.

 I have not even got my amp yet and I am already worried about new tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Sorry for the thread hijack. I can see I have lots to learn. But at least because of you guys, I also have lots to read!


----------



## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markmaxx* 
_I went to Hirsch's link www.tubeseller.com and there are some Premium 6SN7s in the $115.00 to $375.00 range in deed.

 I have not even got my amp yet and I am already worried about new tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry for the thread hijack. I can see I have lots to learn. But at least because of you guys, I also have lots to read!_

 

actually, with tubeseller.com, you are paying extra for peace of mind. 

 you _could_ much better prices on, say, eBay - however the caveat is that with eBay comes _*risk -*_ counterfeiting, unacceptable microphonics, pictures not matching product receievd, faked test results, DOA tubes, lousy packaging et al...

 then again, on eBay there is the (granted, unlikely) possibility of finding _That Really Great Deal That No One Else Notices._


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## adhoc

170705 - some pretty comphrehensive updates have been added for the tube descriptions.


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## ServinginEcuador

Your 6SN7 archivist name is quite appropriate! This is a substantial piece of work whose value is immense. Thanks for taking the time to compose such a tome.

 A quick comment on this work:

 First, unless these individuals used a duo or trio of the same exact tubes it's difficult-impossible to tell if it's a byproduct of interaction in how different tubes sound, or whether it is truly once tube's characteristics coming through. If someone used a SinglePower amp you add a variable of using two different tubes whose strengths can fill in for the weakness of the other tube(s), and ones whose weaknesses combine for a pretty bad sound. 

 Thoughts on a particular tube's sound characteristic are not nearly as worthwhile when the amp is not listed in with the comments. The context of sound is much more helpful when one knows at least the amp in which the tube's sounds were discovered. If someone has a dry sounding system to start with, and later describes a sound as neutral, we've got the context that helps us figure out what the tube is doing to the sound, and how it makes up for certain flaws in one's system.


 Here's an example: I just removed a pair of GE JAN, 1966 vintage tubes that look exactly like the Sylvania bad boys, minus the copper rods. In my SDS-T these tubes are fast, but lean in the bass with a tipped-up sound. The highs were more extended than any other tube I've heard in my system, and with the right driver tube to fill in the bass and drop the highs a little this will be an amazingly good combo. The Ken-Rad and TS RP did nothing to alleviate the lack of bass and pronounce highs, but I won't give up yet as it is a very lively tube that has potential.

 Right now I've got a pair of the Syl bad boys with a TS RP in the driver's seat. A superb combo, but sounds a little rolled-off in the highs. This could be due to the change over to from the GE, so I won't yet give a definitive statement on the sound of this combo, but I will say it is very, very good so far. After a couple of days of burning in this trio, and time to let me ears readjust to a lessened high-end, I'll have more to say.

 Using two TS RPs in the output stage did something rather unexpected: it nearly killed the high-end of my system. Dark, dark, dark is how I would describe the use of those tubes as outputs. Not my cup o' tea at all!

 Using the Ken-Rad with the Syl JAN CHS tubes as outputs was my first trio in this amp, and it was fabulous. I won't give much comment as I later found that one of the tubes was a Bad Boy, and the other was not. May have done some weird things to the sound, making for a less than ideal listening environment. 

 It wasn't until I found this thread that I realized that I had about (8) of the Bad Boy tubes!! Now that I've installed a pair into my system I'm all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and lovin' the sound.


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## adhoc

SIE, thank you for your kind comments. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, regarding the fact that combination of tubes were frequently used - you are correct. However, I *did* take that into account when compiling this thread, which is why the various comments are colour-coded based on their original 'source' thread.


----------



## ServinginEcuador

adhoc,

 I saw that the quotes referred to individual threads, which was IMHO a really nice touch. 

 [size=small]To ANYONE reading this thread: MAKE SURE TO CHECK INTO HAVING YOUR AMP SWITCHED OVER TO ACCEPT 12SN7 TUBES!!!!! [/size]
 At about 1/10th to as high as 1/4 for the same exact sound it is simply a steal. Tung-Sol roundplates, although impossible to find, only run about $50 a tube.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* 
_adhoc,

 I saw that the quotes referred to individual threads, which was IMHO a really nice touch. 

 [size=small]To ANYONE reading this thread: MAKE SURE TO CHECK INTO HAVING YOUR AMP SWITCHED OVER TO ACCEPT 12SN7 TUBES!!!!! [/size]
 At about 1/10th to as high as 1/4 for the same exact sound it is simply a steal. Tung-Sol roundplates, although impossible to find, only run about $50 a tube._

 


 I have six or seven Tung Sol round plate 12sn7's. I didnt pay more than $7 for any of them. I paid the same price for NU black glass and Ken Rad 12sngt's. The most I paid for any 12sn7 was $15 for some RCA dark gray glass 12sn7's I especially wanted. I found five or six later on for $6.50 each. There is a good supply of RCA, Sylvania and Tung Sol clear glass 12sn7's if you look around. The only tough to find 12sn7's for me were the Ken Rad's and the Raytheon's. I am still passively looking for the Raytheons. Passively because I discovered the loctal 7n7/14n7 which is the best sounding tube I have had in my Singlepower amp setups period. Loctal 7n7's cost $6-7 most places and 14n7's run from $2.25- $3.50. All you need is an octal to loctal tube socket adapter and your set..... no amp mods needed.


----------



## Len

The 7N7 is a great substitute. Tube rolling opportunity greatly diminishes compared to 6SN7 (not necessarily a bad thing), but it's a terrific sounding tube. The big plus-side is any 6SN7 can be refitted to use 7N7 with relative ease. I'm actually surprised no one is offering a commercial adapter for it yet (AFAIK). 7N7s are cheap (likely will remain cheap for a long time) and relatively easy to find.

 12SN7 are harder to find (except for people named Earl! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), and, unlike the 7N7, converting 6SN7 to 12SN7 has inherent design problems unless you purposely design the application for this purpose. But 12SN7 has more variety then 7N7 and can provide you equivalent 6SN7 sound (for about 75% of the 6SN7 variety). The main concern is - due to its limitd production runs - any small surge in interest for 12SN7s will raise its price quickly, as evinced by this past year. If you're planning on using 12SN7s, I'd buy them now.

 A big shame is I think a lot of 7N7 and 12SN7s got thrown out with the trash over the decades. They saw little practical use before the tube renaissance of the early 90s (or even during tube's glory days), and guitar amps favored the 6SN7 by a stark margin. So chances are, a lot of 7N7 and 12SN7, and less popular tubes found a permenant home at the dump yard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This compounds availability problems of tubes which were originally far less prolific. In years past, I've picked up dozens of 7N7s for free from folks who were going to simply trash them.

 It's easy to see why the 6SN7 was a favored tube. It sounds terrific, rivals any other tube in terms of sonic variety, was manufactured in incredible quantities (much more then 7N7 or 12SN7), and uses the very popular octal base. Problem is, it became a victim of its greatness, and prices (and lately, availability) reflects this. It's getting costly to operate, but from an investment viewpoint, the yield is better then the stock market


----------



## ServinginEcuador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* 
_I have six or seven Tung Sol round plate 12sn7's. I didnt pay more than $7 for any of them._

 

The only problem is that now it's impossible to find any. I've been looking for six months now, and haven't found any since I got lucky with the huge batch of tubes I got off of eBay. Nobody seems to have the Tung-Sol RP tubes now, which is quite sad as I'd like to buy a few more for myself.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ServinginEcuador* 
_The only problem is that now it's impossible to find any. I've been looking for six months now, and haven't found any since I got lucky with the huge batch of tubes I got off of eBay. Nobody seems to have the Tung-Sol RP tubes now, which is quite sad as I'd like to buy a few more for myself._

 


 Hmmm. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am going to have to look around some more. I like the loctals so well I havent been on the lookout for any 12sn7's lately. Plus I have 175 12sn7's anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Being the original adopter has its perks.... seems I got all my primo 12sn7's and 5687's before they disappeared and lots cheaper too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The landscape changes quickly with tubes these days.


----------



## Len

I think you did gobble up all the good 12SN7s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But there's still a lot of 5687 out there. The SLAMs are actually quite late in the game when it comes to this tube. Audio Note owners, for example, have you guys beat by a decade+.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Len* 
_I think you did gobble up all the good 12SN7s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But there's still a lot of 5687 out there. The SLAMs are actually quite late in the game when it comes to this tube. Audio Note owners, for example, have you guys beat by a decade+._

 

Yes your right about the 5687's. I found a good number of tung sol 5687's recently and I told another head-fier about them so he could get them. I have over 100 and probably 50 or more are the tung sol D getters.... I dont need ANY tubes. But I always look for them anyway. I think I just like the challenge of finding the tubes I use in general. The loctals are my babies. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hate to pass up any loctals even though I have about 200 between the 7n7 and 14n7's.


----------



## adhoc

i would agree with the comments so far regarding higher voltage 'replacements' for the 6SN7s. i would like to add 2 more advantages of using higher filament voltages:

 - less hum; a higher voltage means less current. current generates magnetic fields. magnetic coupling means hum. hence less current = less hum. 
 - you can get cheaper filament trannies for 12V.

 fwiw, iirc there are also *25*n7s and *40*n7s out there.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* 
_i would agree with the comments so far regarding higher voltage 'replacements' for the 6SN7s. i would like to add 2 more advantages of using higher filament voltages:

 - less hum; a higher voltage means less current. current generates magnetic fields. magnetic coupling means hum. hence less current = less hum. 
 - you can get cheaper filament trannies for 12V.

 fwiw, iirc there are also *25*n7s and *40*n7s out there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 



 With the Singlepower amps all you need to do is switch the 12 volt supply for a 25 or 40 volt supply and your in business. I have been looking for some 25sn7's....or 1633's. These tubes seem to mostly be RCA gray glass but there doesnt appear to be much of a supply; atleast from all my usual sources. For myself I dont know if the search is worth the effort. Some high voltage loctals would be nice though.


----------



## Glod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* 
_i would agree with the comments so far regarding higher voltage 'replacements' for the 6SN7s. i would like to add 2 more advantages of using higher filament voltages:

 - less hum; a higher voltage means less current. current generates magnetic fields. magnetic coupling means hum. hence less current = less hum. 
 - you can get cheaper filament trannies for 12V.

 fwiw, iirc there are also *25*n7s and *40*n7s out there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Well - I have this BRIMAR 13D1...also a 25V filament. The thing is that I only have one: I’ll need two more, and a different heater wall-wart, for my 6V/12V MPX3. On the other hand, I do very little tube rolling nowadays. If anyone would like to have it, give me an offer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: A 13D1 is supposedly a 25V filament 6SN7...


----------



## patman657

adhoc,

 In an eBay search for 6SN7 variants, I came across this auction. The tube appears to be a RCA 5692 manufactured by Marconi-Radiotron, a company that in this thread does not seem to be credited with making a 5692. I'm certainly no expert on tubes, but I thought I would post this so those who are more knowledgeable could look into it.


----------



## Growlerrr

I use these tubes in an integrated amp and not for a headphone amp, but still wanted to share my 2 cents. 

 As noted, combining tubes will often produce the best results. My amp uses 4 6SN7's per channel and I have settled (repeatedly) on the following combination:

 Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle
 Tung Sol RP
 B65 Marconi/Osram/GEC (All sound the same for vintage UK manufactured. Foreign made B65's are not in the same league)
 Swedish Standard 33S30

 The Sylvanias and TS's have been well covered here and I agree with the general consensus.

 The B65 has gone largely undiscussed. In the combination that I use, this tube adds depth to the soundstage and places instruments accurately. It also smoothes out highs, such as triangles, that can be shrill when using only the Tung Sol, for instance. When used alone, it has strong bass, but is slower than the Sylvania or TS. It is also a touch euphonic (though it does not roll off the high end). For me, this actually complements the other tubes well. 

 I find the Swedish Standard to be a stellar tube. Adhoc and Len have mentioned that it is a 5692 in construction. However, it sounds nothing like an RCA or CBS.

 I must note that I do not have 8 of the Swedish standards and, therefore, cannot describe them as a stand-alone tube. I have tried the Sylvanias, Tung Sols, and B65's alone and have found it best to use a pair of each rather than 8 of a single make.

 Anyway, the Swedish Standard, when used with the other tubes, provides unsurpassed neutrality. It seems to allow the other tubes to shine in their particular areas of strength while mitigating their flaws. Instruments and vocals are anchored, bass tightens, soundstage opens, clarity increases, timbre becomes more natural, and timing is made more accurate.

 Would I use the Swedish Standard if I only had a single 6SN7? I have no idea since I can't attribute its benefits to the tube itself without hoarding a bunch more and slipping them into all 6SN7 sockets, but I would certainly give it a try if you use multiple 6SN7's.

 I hope that this was helpful for the 33S30 and B65's that haven't been covered much in this thread.


----------



## augustwest

_"I hope that this was helpful for the 33S30 and B65's that haven't been covered much in this thread."_

 Are these two tubes "drop-in replacements" for the 6sn7? What kind of prices do they go for.

 - augustwest


----------



## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *augustwest* 
_"I hope that this was helpful for the 33S30 and B65's that haven't been covered much in this thread."

 Are these two tubes "drop-in replacements" for the 6sn7? What kind of prices do they go for.

 - augustwest_

 

*I would consider the B65 a direct drop in for a 6SN7GT.* (edited)

 The B65 has what many consider to be 'tipped up' highs that add an unnatural amount of 'shimmer' to music. Also, IME they are extremely prone to microphonics. Perhaps a lot of the mystique has to do with the metal bases earlier examples of this tube come with?

 I have tried the Osram (2) and Marconi (1) flavours and did not like them - that's not saying others cannot though. They come up from time to time on eBay and I would expect them to go for ~$50 minimum each in fair condition (ie not testing as new).

 The 33S30 is AFAIK identical to a 5692, so use it as you would a 5692.

 It is also _exceedingly _rare - I have only come across 2 examples in the last 3 years on eBay. In one instance, it was labeled correctly (Swedish Standard) and went for an astronomical price; in the other it was labeled 'Haltron 5692' and went for a pittance. 

 The trick is to look closely at the plates - do they have a 'dirty black' (as opposed to flat black or matte black or shiny black) coating and numbers scratched on? If so, you're good to go. When labeled correctly, these tubes can go for upwards of $150 per tube.


----------



## adhoc

_whoops!_


----------



## GoldWarlock

is there a thread like this for 6as7?
 It'd be great!


----------



## jamato8

You could always start one.


----------



## Von Soundcard

What is the average life of a NOS '40s-'50s 6SN7 ?

 Any links, resources on the subject ?


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the average life of a NOS '40s-'50s 6SN7 ?

 Any links, resources on the subject ?_

 

Depends on how long you run them. 

_
 5692 - 275 Volts maximum & maximum 1.75 Watts per section
 6SN7GT/WGT -- 300 Volts maximum & maximum 3.5 Watts per section
 6SN7GTA/GTB - 450 Volts maximum & maximum 5.0 Watts per section

 Using the general audio application of 250 plate volts, a bias of 8 volts results in 9ma of current and a plate dissipation of 2.25 Watts, we find:


 5692 - runs 43 % over maximum rating – It isn’t a 10,000 hour tube when you run it this HOT!
 6SN7GT - runs 64% of maximum – coasting and liking it
 6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you.

 "5692 - runs 43 % over maximum rating – It isn’t a 10,000 hour tube when you run it this HOT!
 6SN7GT - runs 64% of maximum – coasting and liking it
 6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you."_

6SN7GT VT-231 Audio Tube Performance

 I think 1,000-2,000 hours is about the norm, however I don't remember where I read it. 



 -Nick


----------



## penger

Thanks to whoever bumped this! Great read.


----------



## Von Soundcard

I was referring to usage within manufacturer provided limits (voltage, current) and a usual home operating cycle (6 - 8 hours / day). 

 I'd like to know if there is a "default" life-span for this type of tubes ('40s-'50s 6SN7, esp. military) - like there is for modern tubes, especially the pro versions.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I think 1,000-2,000 hours is about the norm, however I don't remember where I read it. 

 -Nick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Most 6sn7gt's will last around 5000 hours. New production 6sn7 tubes, in general, wont last nearly as long.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most 6sn7gt's will last around 5000 hours. New production 6sn7 tubes, in general, wont last nearly as long._

 


 Who logs their hours anyways!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just listen.. 


 mmm.. music..mmm


----------



## Von Soundcard

It's important when you buy tubes, if it lasts half the time you buy twice the tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am mostly interested in old tubes ('40s-'50s), esp. military versions. That figure of 5000 hours sounds really good. However does it represent the time until they start to degrade their sound quality substantially OR the time until they fail completely ?


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's important when you buy tubes, if it lasts half the time you buy twice the tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I am mostly interested in old tubes ('40s-'50s), esp. military versions. That figure of 5000 hours sounds really good. However does it represent the time until they start to degrade their sound quality substantially OR the time until they fail completely ?_

 


 5,000 hours will last you almost 3 years, if you listen to it for 5 hours a day. That's a lot of listening. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 -Nick


----------



## Hirsch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am mostly interested in old tubes ('40s-'50s), esp. military versions. That figure of 5000 hours sounds really good. However does it represent the time until they start to degrade their sound quality substantially OR the time until they fail completely ?_

 

In the absence of information about the circuit you are running them in, the 5000 hour figure doesn't mean anything. A tube life rating makes assumptions about how hard you are driving the tube. A circuit that is easy on the tubes can extend their life significantly. One that is hard on the tubes will chew them up and spit them out.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the absence of information about the circuit you are running them in, the 5000 hour figure doesn't mean anything. A tube life rating makes assumptions about how hard you are driving the tube. A circuit that is easy on the tubes can extend their life significantly. One that is hard on the tubes will chew them up and spit them out._

 


 Very well said. 


 I will end up buying a duplicate of the tubes I like anyways, so if something DOES happen, I have another one handy. Or I'll buy in pairs, if I can.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very well said. 


 I will end up buying a duplicate of the tubes I like anyways, so if something DOES happen, I have another one handy. Or I'll buy in pairs, if I can._

 

Concerning this:


 To ensure good tube reliability you should probably run a tube at 70% or less of its maximum plate dissipation.

 Using the general audio application of 250 plate volts, a bias of 8 volts resulting in 9ma of current and plate dissipation of 2.25 Watts, we find: 

 5692 - runs 43 % over maximum rating – It isn’t a 10,000 hour tube when you run it this HOT!
 6SN7GT - runs 64% of maximum – coasting and liking it
 6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you.

 The older tubes probably burn faster then the newer type tubes. 

 Most jan or w designated tubes have 10.000 hours of life, minimum of at least 5000 anyway.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Concerning this:


 To ensure good tube reliability you should probably run a tube at 70% or less of its maximum plate dissipation.

 Using the general audio application of 250 plate volts, a bias of 8 volts resulting in 9ma of current and plate dissipation of 2.25 Watts, we find: 

 5692 - runs 43 % over maximum rating – It isn’t a 10,000 hour tube when you run it this HOT!
 6SN7GT - runs 64% of maximum – coasting and liking it
 6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you.

 The older tubes probably burn faster then the newer type tubes. 

 Most jan or w designated tubes have 10.000 hours of life, minimum of at least 5000 anyway._

 

I posted a link to that info. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've read it before.

 5692's are mostly for low watts, because it runs 43% over maximum rating. The normal rating for a 5692 is 1.075 watts, in order to "maintain" the 10,000 hour rating it must be used in low wattage amplifiers. 

 Most tubes will last you longer than a year, in which I recommend picking up a duplicate, just in case. 





 -Nick


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I posted a link to that info. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've read it before.

 5692's are mostly for low watts, because it runs 43% over maximum rating. The normal rating for a 5692 is 1.075 watts, in order to "maintain" the 10,000 hour rating it must be used in low wattage amplifiers. 

 Most tubes will last you longer than a year, in which I recommend picking up a duplicate, just in case. 





 -Nick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If they were only to last 1 year or more, i would suggest you get multiple duplicates. or do you change amps every year?!


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If they were only to last 1 year or more, i would suggest you get multiple duplicates. or do you change amps every year?!_

 

I have duplicates, and a wide variety of tubes too. That I actually listen to.


----------



## Von Soundcard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hirsch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the absence of information about the circuit you are running them in, the 5000 hour figure doesn't mean anything. A tube life rating makes assumptions about how hard you are driving the tube. A circuit that is easy on the tubes can extend their life significantly. One that is hard on the tubes will chew them up and spit them out._

 

I already said I was referring to operating conditions within the limits set by the manufacturer (current, voltage). If you have any specifics regarding what conditions can age faster (this type of) tube, by all means share them.

 I now see a double figure of 10000 hours mentioned. This is already hard to belive, as new E88CC professional tubes have 10000 hours and they are among the best at this. Is there any resource on this ? And are these figures referring to operating life while sustaining the best sound or to the whole life-span until complete failure ?


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I already said I was referring to operating conditions within the limits set by the manufacturer (current, voltage). If you have any specifics regarding what conditions can age faster (this type of) tube, by all means share them.

 I now see a double figure of 10000 hours mentioned. This is already hard to belive, as new E88CC professional tubes have 10000 hours and they are among the best at this. Is there any resource on this ? And are these figures referring to operating life while sustaining the best sound or to the whole life-span until complete failure ?_

 


 Well, I'll give this a try. These are the results that came up from a quick search.


 "The 5692 is a commercial "premium" version of the type 6SN7 tube."

 "They also have long life cathodes rated at 10,000 hours of service."

 "The 5692 is a militarized version of the 6SN7, originally designed to work with artillery (all the vibration was destroying tubes at a frightening rate). Scott Frankland (the F in MFA) has written that they chose the 5692 because of its longevity (10,000 hours!!!)"

 Then..

 "5692 was markted as a 10,000 hour 6SN7, ruggardized for the military with multiple (usually five) support rods. But the reason why it lasts 10,000 hours is it was rated at only 275V and 1.75 watts of plate dissipation, much less then 6SN7 ratings.* When 6SN7 electrical specs are applied, the 5692 doesn't last any longer then a 6SN7."*



 -Nick


----------



## jamato8

Yep, and I have many 5692's and do not like their sound. They have a poor frequency extension on both ends, lack dynamics and clarity and just plain do not present the music in a convincing manner. Now the 5691, the 6SL7 sub but at lower operating points, does sound pretty good but I will take a good Sylvania of 1952 vintage or a nice Tungsol 6SU7.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


 A few words regarding the Mullard CV181:

 This tube is highly sought-after. BUT, it is NOT a 6SN7. It is an ECC32, which is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7. As mentioned earlier, the current draw for this tube is 50% higher than a 6SN7. This will blow most power transformers over time. And power transformers rarely die alone – they usually take some other parts with them when departing this plane. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The higher current draw also results in higher gain – something which many people forget when trying out this tube. All other factors remaining constant, a higher gain results in a higher volume, which can in turn result in the (mistaken) impression that the tube has a ‘fuller’ sound.

 Which may or may not have contributed to this particular tube’s much sought after status. Food for thought, indeed.

 “It's interesting to note that a single dealer created virtually the whole myth and market for the CV181. He made a lot of bucks off them because he had an almost limitless South African source for the tube.” Robert H. 
 

This section from the OP is interesting, but I think it can be slightly misleading. *Certain designs* , such as the SinglePower MPX3 and Extreme, are more than capable of handling the ECC32 and, in those amps, the ECC32 does in fact sound truly excellent, even in the opinion of the designer. The warning that the ECC32 is not a drop in replacement for the 6SN7 is very real and valid; the idea that in the right design that it isn't a good sounding tube (which was quoted by the OP) is most likely sour grapes about the fact that they are pricey. Just my opinion of course.

 In general however, the OP is a terrific piece of work!


----------



## Von Soundcard

If there is a good resource or anyone actually knows about this topic from experience and not Google, I'm still interested in this.

 Also about factors which may shorten a 6SN7 tube's life, other than the obvious (excessive current / power).


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If there is a good resource or anyone actually knows about this topic from experience and not Google, I'm still interested in this.

 Also about factors which may shorten a 6SN7 tube's life, other than the obvious (excessive current / power)._

 

What's wrong with Google? Do you want someone with a book to show you? Maybe copy pages and post them here.. I'm confused..


----------



## Von Soundcard

There's nothing wrong with Google, only with people that misuse it. Google is for (quick) finding, not for learning and certainly not for advising others. If you got your (professional) knowledge of Google I understand your position, but then do refrain from posting any more advice, at least for my questions.

 Yes, I'd like someone with a book (what a scary thought...) or better yet with professional experience to give his opinions on the topic.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's nothing wrong with Google, only with people that misuse it. Google is for (quick) finding, not for learning and certainly not for advising others. If you got your (professional) knowledge of Google I understand your position, but than do refrain from posting any more advice, at least for my questions.

 Yes, I'd like someone with a book (what a scary thought 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) or better yet with professional experience to give his opinions on the topic._

 

I'll bite my tongue on this, before we head into OT territory. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, most everything from Google, came from a book, eventually. How do you think it got there? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm working on a college degree, and 75% of the time I use Google, however I enjoy books to. Furthermore, I will guess there will be only a handful of people with tube books out there..



 Take care..


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I'd like someone with a book (what a scary thought...) or better yet with professional experience to give his opinions on the topic._

 

I'm not sure you will find people more knowledgeable about such things than Hirsch and Jamato, but if you want to ask your question to another group of tube-heads, you can try Tubes Asylum

 I suggest that if you do decide to post over there that you be _extremely_ polite if you actually want people to reply


----------



## Von Soundcard

I'm am at least as polite as those addressing me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Unfortunately none of those mentioned by you actually had a clear and on topic reply, that's why I asked for more opinions. 
 Thanks for the link, I'll probably post there eventually.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However, most everything from Google, came from a book, eventually. How do you think it got there? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Don't get me wrong, that's still extremely hilarious, but it's great you didn't say everything in books eventually came from Google


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unfortunately none of those mentioned by you actually had a clear and on topic reply, that's why I asked for more opinions. _

 

For my benefit at least, could you please re-state exactly what your question is?


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Don't get me wrong, that's still extremely hilarious, but it's great you didn't say everything in books eventually came from Google 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

.


----------



## Von Soundcard

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For my benefit at least, could you please re-state exactly what your question is?_

 

See, now that's already a bit unpolite, making me ask for the third or fourth time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However, I would like to know manufacturer declared (and/or actual, if there are none of the first) hours of functioning for 40s-50s 6SN7 tubes, esp. military versions (VT-231, etc.). Assuming normal operating conditions as stated by the producer.

 I was also interested in less than obvious factors that can influence the life-span of those tubes - and general audio performance, actually - such as operating points, regimes, type of powering etc. I would welcome a good resource on this, online or not, as it is a wide and complex subject.


----------



## Skylab

I certainly wasn't trying to be impolite - in fact, I was trying to help.

 The RCA Datasheet for the 6SN7 does not spec any life expectancy, although it certainly does spec standard operating conditions: http://www.tubezone.net/pdf/6sn7.pdf

 And if the makers do not provide a spec for lifespan, I'm not sure that you will ever get a definitive answer to your question - all you will get is anecdotal evidence. I searched tubes asylum, and there was nothing definitive there except the suggestion to check the RCA tube manual, which I was able to find online, but which says nothing about lifespan. Even if they did, all the could provide was a Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF), which is, of course, a MEAN 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The US Government does define how to calculate MTBF for vacuum tubes (see sec 7.1): http://snebulos.mit.edu/projects/ref...7F-Notice2.pdf

 From what I have been able to gather, the expectation of a 6SN7 run "normally" is about 5,000-7,000 hours, although it can be longer.


----------



## Von Soundcard

Actually it was more of a pun to your last reply 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5000-7000 hours does sound a bit optimistic, from what I've heard it could be perhaps half of that; however it all depends on what the figure means: is it the degradation of it's response below certain values or total lifetime until failure.

 Even though the manufacturers may not have usually provided life expectancies for the tubes, they could have done so for the military versions - in which case they may lay somewhere in an army manual or spec.
 However, the best advice would indeed come from a professional who has worked with this tube and knows it's limitations.

 But you see, whenever we get into serious territory and someone brings a significant issue to the table - one which may involve hard gained knowledge or even trade secrets - all the 'gurus' suddenly have something else to do and you're left with _Google_


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually it was more of a pun to your last reply 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5000-7000 hours does sound a bit optimistic, from what I've heard it could be perhaps half of that; however it all depends on what the figure means: is it the degradation of it's response below certain values or total lifetime until failure.

 Even though the manufacturers may not have usually provided life expectancies for the tubes, they could have done so for the military versions - in which case they may lay somewhere in an army manual or spec.
 However, the best advice would indeed come from a professional who has worked with this tube and knows it's limitations.

 But you see, whenever we get into serious territory and someone brings a significant issue to the table - one which may involve hard gained knowledge or even trade secrets - all the 'gurus' suddenly have something else to do and you're left with Google



_

 


 I understand the importance of answering your question, but you will get mixed results. 

 You have to remember these tubes are up to 60 years old, and may have never been used. It could die on you the next day you have it. And because of the nature of tubes, we kind of average what the well respected have to say, and get from 1,000-8,000 hours. Since they are so old, there is no concrete evidence saying one tube WILL last "X" amount of hours. My advise to you, buy multiple replacements, that way you will always have one hand. 

 You could have 10 of the same tubes, with 4 failing under 1,000 hours,4 failing between 2,000 and 6,000, and you may find the rest of your tubes average 7,000+ hours. 

 It is too dependent on the source, and the tube. I don't know how much more you want. Dare I say to use Google, but I bet I can help you out with specifics, but it would be with the use of Google, which it seems your not to fond of. 

 Maybe this book would help you:

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Power Vacuum Tubes Handbook, Second Edition (Electronics Handbook Series)

 Check with your local library. I am not having too much luck, as most everything I am reading says "too many variables in play". 

 In all honesty, just image 2,000-4,000 would be an adequate amount of time. 

 Just register here:

Tubes Asylum

 And ask away. Some of those guys are true tube nuts; if you can't pull the answer you're looking for, you may not ever know. These are some of the most knowledgeable people in the Tubes department, I know. 



 Good luck..


 -Nick


----------



## Skylab

The other real issue is this: let's say you were to discover that RCA spec'd the 6SN7 at 3,000 hours MTBF. What good does that information actually do you? That spec would be for a certain usage, which is almost certainly not going to match the actual usage you get in an amp anyway! So to me, the information you are seeking, while it may indeed be interesting academically, has almost no practical value.

 And also, specs for tubes provided when they were made would not apply anyway to tubes that have been sitting on shelves for 50 years or so. These tubes clearly have aged, even if not used.

 Bottom line: I don't think there is any information out there that will provide any real value. 6SN7's in audio amps could last for 30,000 hours potentially. But what is likely to happen to NOS tubes is that they will fail on power up at some point. Not the end of the world - just time to upgrade


----------



## Von Soundcard

That is a hollow consumerist and atechnical viewpoint 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You should know how long your gear lasts - along with how you can make it last longer and perform better. If an amp is made to obey all limitations layed by the producer there is no reason the tube will die sooner. I'm not at all sure age plays such a large role in top quality tubes, and if it does is should be easily quantifiable by an expert. 
 The other thing is you can sometimes find very hard some tubes you like. Change is not always the best thing - if it's not broke why would you mess with it ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So you need to know well in advance how large a stock of your favorite tubes to make.

 The best estimate of the actual life-span should come from a professional electronics engineer who has worked with these exact tubes - old NOS 6SN7 - and therefore knows exactly how they behave over time (which is what I've asked for all along). A general life expectancy figure from the manufacturer helps too.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Von Soundcard* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is a hollow consumerist and atechnical viewpoint 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You should know how long your gear lasts - along with how you can make it last longer and perform better. If an amp is made to obey all limitations layed by the producer there is no reason the tube will die sooner. I'm not at all sure age plays such a large role in top quality tubes, and if it does is should be easily quantifiable by an expert. 
 The other thing is you can sometimes find very hard some tubes you like. Change is not always the best thing - if it's not broke why would you mess with it ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So you need to know well in advance how large a stock of your favorite tubes to make.

 The best estimate of the actual life-span should come from a professional electronics engineer who has worked with these exact tubes - old NOS 6SN7 - and therefore knows exactly how they behave over time (which is what I've asked for all along). A general life expectancy figure from the manufacturer helps too._

 


 If you find someone, please share..


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## blubliss

Has anyone tried the 1578, a Russian variant of the 6SN7? A tube seller i trust is telling me they are better than the Tung-Sol round plates.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried the 1578, a Russian variant of the 6SN7? A tube seller i trust is telling me they are better than the Tung-Sol round plates._

 


 How much are they?


----------



## blubliss

I think he told me $200/pr but i can't find the email now.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think he told me $200/pr but i can't find the email now._

 

Wow, pricey.


 Are these it?

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-6SN7-6N8S-1...QQcmdZViewItem


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## blubliss

Not sure if that is it. Haven't seen pics yet. He sells on Audiogon. Price could be less too. Certainly a lot less than the Tung-Sol roundplates.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not sure if that is it. Haven't seen pics yet. He sells on Audiogon. Price could be less too. Certainly a lot less than the Tung-Sol roundplates._

 


 Well, if they were THAT good, or better, don't you think there would be more discussion on these tubes? I mean it seems every tube has been tried.. except these.


 Here ya go:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...highlight=1578


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, pricey.


 Are these it?

RARE!!! 6SN7 = 6N8S = 1578 Metal base Lot of 2 NIB 1954 - eBay (item 150271746477 end time Jul-23-08 05:09:22 PDT)_

 

NO. Those tubes are a FLAT RIP-OFF. Just a basic Russian 6N8S with a metal base. No better than the black-base ones you can get for $1 each.

 The *actual* 1578 has a totally different plate structure - see here:

RARE! 1 USSR TUBE 1578=6SN7 Unique military development - eBay (item 260261138109 end time Jul-19-08 21:00:00 PDT)

 That one IS a 1578. Interesting tube. Some people think it's the best sounding 6SN7 there is - others (including me) were less than impressed. Personally - I wouldn't spend the jack for one. RCA, Ken-Rad, or Sylvania VT-231's all beat the pants off the 1578 IMHO.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NO. Those tubes are a FLAT RIP-OFF. Just a basic Russian 6N8S with a metal base. No better than the black-base ones you can get for $1 each.

 The *actual* 1578 has a totally different plate structure - see here:

RARE! 1 USSR TUBE 1578=6SN7 Unique military development - eBay (item 260261138109 end time Jul-19-08 21:00:00 PDT)

 That one IS a 1578. Interesting tube. Some people think it's the best sounding 6SN7 there is - others (including me) were less than impressed. Personally - I wouldn't spend the jack for one. RCA, Ken-Rad, or Sylvania VT-231's all beat the pants off the 1578 IMHO._

 


 Gotcha. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 That was the first thing that came up, so I linked it..


----------



## blubliss

Thanks for the info. One guy in that thread liked them a lot. My seller did say they are microphonic, but i don't think that's a problem for me. Anyway, i have a total warranty with him, can return anything, so it's not that risky.

 I am interested in hearing from those who have heard these tubes.


----------



## blubliss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NO. Those tubes are a FLAT RIP-OFF. Just a basic Russian 6N8S with a metal base. No better than the black-base ones you can get for $1 each.

 The *actual* 1578 has a totally different plate structure - see here:

RARE! 1 USSR TUBE 1578=6SN7 Unique military development - eBay (item 260261138109 end time Jul-19-08 21:00:00 PDT)

 That one IS a 1578. Interesting tube. Some people think it's the best sounding 6SN7 there is - others (including me) were less than impressed. Personally - I wouldn't spend the jack for one. RCA, Ken-Rad, or Sylvania VT-231's all beat the pants off the 1578 IMHO._

 

Thanks Skylab. I do like the Ken-Rads and Sylvanias a lot. That is what i currently use in both my amps. My seller has the real 1578s you mention. I may just try them out to see for myself in my amps.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Skylab. I do like the Ken-Rads and Sylvanias a lot. That is what i currently use in both my amps. My seller has the real 1578s you mention. I may just try them out to see for myself in my amps._

 

If you do, and don't like them, shoot me a PM so I can try one. I wouldn't pay full value, but I'd like to try one nonetheless. 




 -Nick


----------



## Skylab

I do suggest trying them out. I found them to be a little grainy and dry sounding, but that is just in my amps. Might be great in other amps, and to other ears


----------



## nick20

blubliss, 

 I couldn't resist, but to compliment you on your stunning headphone collection. I'm just speechless... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 -Nick


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## blubliss

Skylab,

 Were you able to just drop those ECC32s into your Extreme? Where did you get them, if you don't mind me asking?

 My tube seller is a guy on Audiogon, username paul_lindemann. Very nice guy. I've gotten Sylvania VT 231, and WE 2C51 from him for less than others sell them for.


----------



## blubliss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_blubliss, 

 I couldn't resist, but to compliment you on your stunning headphone collection. I'm just speechless... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Nick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thank, Nick. I went crazy last year.


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank, Nick. I went crazy last year.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 You can send one of them to me, if you'd like. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 -Nick


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skylab,

 Were you able to just drop those ECC32s into your Extreme? Where did you get them, if you don't mind me asking?

 My tube seller is a guy on Audiogon, username paul_lindemann. Very nice guy. I've gotten Sylvania VT 231, and WE 2C51 from him for less than others sell them for._

 

Yes, the ECC32 works great in the SP Extreme, with no problems. Mikhail from Singlepower even strongly recommended it to me as an excellent driver tube in the Extreme, and indeed it is. I also use one as the driver tube in my SP MPX3. They just sound great. I got them from Brendan at tubeworld.com - brown base NOS Mullards, $200 plus shipping. Expensive, yes, but *really* great in SP amps. Never tried one in any other amp I have because I am unsure if they would work.

 I too have bought tubes from Paul, and he's a great seller.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried the 1578, a Russian variant of the 6SN7? A tube seller i trust is telling me they are better than the Tung-Sol round plates._

 

I did and indeed they are really good! I don't like the russian 1578 as driver tube but 2 of them as powertubes are really nice! That is what most people do, use a different driver and 2 as powertubes, really nice combo.

 I have probably 2 up for sale, new....just pm me.

 Also 2 sylvania w , wich are extremely rare and highly sought after!

 I stick with my just as rare jan philips wgta's.

 1 jan philips wgta was better as driver tube then the russian 1578.

 But, the russians are up with all the other exotic 6sn7's, that is if you got the real deal! 

 Lots of other russians are indeed crap, only the real 1578 is a really good tube! hence getting really rare and expensive!


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the ECC32 works great in the SP Extreme, with no problems. Mikhail from Singlepower even strongly recommended it to me as an excellent driver tube in the Extreme, and indeed it is. I also use one as the driver tube in my SP MPX3. They just sound great. I got them from Brendan at tubeworld.com - brown base NOS Mullards, $200 plus shipping. Expensive, yes, but *really* great in SP amps. Never tried one in any other amp I have because I am unsure if they would work.

 I too have bought tubes from Paul, and he's a great seller._

 

I can get 2 cvc 181/ecc32 tubes for 50 euro's a piece!


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can get 2 cvc 181/ecc32 tubes for 50 euro's a piece!_

 

Then buy them and I will buy them from you


----------



## Black Stuart

I would distrust any tubeseller who says the Russian 1578s are microphonic, they are in fact completely non-microphonic, which for me was a first and make the best 6SN7 for a pre-amp.

 As someone said - you either love them or hate them. I first heard of these particular 6SN7s' from Bob Prangell (he of Moskido fame) on diyforum.

 Incidentally he also put me onto the 1579 aka 6SL7. He rates those 2 tubes as the best of their respective types.

 It was me that persuaded Tourmaline to try the 1578. Even though we share the same basic h/amp namely the BadaPH12, his take on the valve is very different from mine - I loved them so much I built up quite a stash.

 I certainly don't find them grainy at all - just very, very neutral. I did'nt really understand what that meant (in tube terms) until I encountered this tube. 

 A 'bit on the dry side' - yes that's a comment I can understand but very fast, dynamic and balanced from top to bottom - Ken-Rads/Sylvanias/GEs/Gts/WGT/WGTA - to my ears they are all coloured, some more than others.

 BTW - there are 3 slight differences internally which result in small but noticeable variations in presentation.

 I note what my friend Tourmaline says but for me 3 x 1578s are fine - it could also be a difference in ages that determines what the individual hears. I tried using a Sylvania chrome top as driver, very musical but I missed the seperation, staging and dynamics 0f 3 x 1578s.

 Once I heard this tube - the search was over. My problem is to find a design where I can use them in a phono stage - I don't like ECC83s. Apparently the 6SN7 has too high an 'ouput capacitance' - esta la vida.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NO. Those tubes are a FLAT RIP-OFF. Just a basic Russian 6N8S with a metal base. No better than the black-base ones you can get for $1 each.

 The *actual* 1578 has a totally different plate structure - see here:

RARE! 1 USSR TUBE 1578=6SN7 Unique military development - eBay (item 260261138109 end time Jul-19-08 21:00:00 PDT)

 That one IS a 1578. Interesting tube. Some people think it's the best sounding 6SN7 there is - others (including me) were less than impressed. Personally - I wouldn't spend the jack for one. RCA, Ken-Rad, or Sylvania VT-231's all beat the pants off the 1578 IMHO._

 

Has anyone compared the "real" 1578 to Electroharmonix 6SN7EH (basically the same thing as TungSol reissue 6SN7)? I use 6SN7EH when I feel like something different, less lush and round than NOS types, or mixed with one NOS and one EH.


----------



## Black Stuart

Hi Jon L,
 yes I have the EH, IMO it's not a patch on the 1578 and yes I agree that a lot of the NOS do have this 'lush' sound - you pays yer money and makes yer choice.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Jon L,
 yes I have the EH, IMO it's not a patch on the 1578 and yes I agree that a lot of the NOS do have this 'lush' sound - you pays yer money and makes yer choice._

 

Assuming you mean "match" by "patch," what specifically differs between 1578 and 6SN7EH sound?


----------



## Skylab

The EH 6SN7 is constructed NOTHING like the 1578. If there is any similarity in would just be a happy coincidence. And IMHO the EH 6SN7 is about the worst sounding 6SN7 I have ever heard, though I have never listened to any Chinese ones. When I am looking for a less lush sound, then I go with the Sylvania tall-bottle VT-231. That is not a lush sounding tube like the RCA grey-glass VT-231 is. The Ken-Rad black-glass VT-231 is sort of in-between in some ways, and is also a nice change-up.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would distrust any tubeseller who says the Russian 1578s are microphonic, they are in fact completely non-microphonic, which for me was a first and make the best 6SN7 for a pre-amp.

 As someone said - you either love them or hate them. I first heard of these particular 6SN7s' from Bob Prangell (he of Moskido fame) on diyforum.

 Incidentally he also put me onto the 1579 aka 6SL7. He rates those 2 tubes as the best of their respective types.

 It was me that persuaded Tourmaline to try the 1578. Even though we share the same basic h/amp namely the BadaPH12, his take on the valve is very different from mine - I loved them so much I built up quite a stash.

 I certainly don't find them grainy at all - just very, very neutral. I did'nt really understand what that meant (in tube terms) until I encountered this tube. 

 A 'bit on the dry side' - yes that's a comment I can understand but very fast, dynamic and balanced from top to bottom - Ken-Rads/Sylvanias/GEs/Gts/WGT/WGTA - to my ears they are all coloured, some more than others.

 BTW - there are 3 slight differences internally which result in small but noticeable variations in presentation.

 I note what my friend Tourmaline says but for me 3 x 1578s are fine - it could also be a difference in ages that determines what the individual hears. I tried using a Sylvania chrome top as driver, very musical but I missed the seperation, staging and dynamics 0f 3 x 1578s.

 Once I heard this tube - the search was over. My problem is to find a design where I can use them in a phono stage - I don't like ECC83s. Apparently the 6SN7 has too high an 'ouput capacitance' - esta la vida._

 

I am with stuart that the real russian 1578 is just as good as any other exotic 6sn7, like the sylvania w's, the tung sol and the wgta. It's just that we modded our amps differently, so it all comes down to preference and matching. Different cdplayer might also mean different favourite tube.

 The sylvania w's are most dynamic though and have probably the best bass of them all.

 With the jan philips wgta's the balance is just right.

 But as i said, just as rare as the 1578, the sylvania w's, tung sol etc.

 Note that the jan philips wgta is not the same as any other wgta tube...
 most sylvania's use the designation of 5y3, wich means wgt, not a real wgta, the jan philips has different designation on the bottom and is the real wgta, wich was developed for televion broadcasting and such. rare tube! hardly turned on and therefor long lasting!

 I can make some pictures for you guys so you know how the real tubes look like!!!


----------



## Skylab

Actually, Sylvania made both 6SN7WGT and 6SN7WGTA. Different tubes. I have some of each. The GTA has higher plate voltage ratings and greater dissipation than the GT. The lower rated 6SN7GT (or the military number VT-231) are not subs for a 6SN7GTA or 6SN7GTB in some amps, although in normal use in most 6SN7 circuits, all these types should be interchangeable. And the "W" before the "GT" or "GTA" just indicates the military version.

 And a 5Y3 is a rectifier tube, totally different thing.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, Sylvania made both 6SN7WGT and 6SN7WGTA. Different tubes. I have some of each. The GTA has higher plate voltage ratings and greater dissipation than the GT. The lower rated 6SN7GT (or the military number VT-231) are not subs for a 6SN7GTA or 6SN7GTB in some amps, although in normal use in most 6SN7 circuits, all these types should be interchangeable. And the "W" before the "GT" or "GTA" just indicates the military version.

 And a 5Y3 is a rectifier tube, totally different thing._

 

Problem is skylab, that most jan sylvania wgta's i see for sale have this designation, the 5y3, so this is not a real substitute for a 6sn7 tube!


----------



## nick20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Problem is skylab, that most jan sylvania wgta's i see for sale have this designation, the 5y3, so this is not a real substitute for a 6sn7 tube!_

 

I think he's agreeing ; 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And a 5Y3 is a rectifier tube, totally different thing._


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Problem is skylab, that most jan sylvania wgta's i see for sale have this designation, the 5y3, so this is not a real substitute for a 6sn7 tube!_

 

Well, it's certainly true that the 5Y3 is not anything even remotely close to the 6SN7! Totally and completely different tube. But there are LOTS of tubes that might have the "WGT" or WGTA" appendix. I own 6SL7WGT's, 6SJ7WGT's, etc., etc. So do not confuse "WGT" or "WGTA" as having anything to do with the 6SN7 specifically.

 And again, I own several 6SN7WGTA's - both from Sylvania and Tung-Sol - so it's not just Phillips that made them.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, it's certainly true that the 5Y3 is not anything even remotely close to the 6SN7! Totally and completely different tube. But there are LOTS of tubes that might have the "WGT" or WGTA" appendix. I own 6SL7WGT's, 6SJ7WGT's, etc., etc. So do not confuse "WGT" or "WGTA" as having anything to do with the 6SN7 specifically.

 And again, I own several 6SN7WGTA's - both from Sylvania and Tung-Sol - so it's not just Phillips that made them._

 


 I know, but it is this specific jan philips batch that is so highly regarded! it is as highly regarded as the 1578, the sylvania w's etc. Just as rare.

 But the designation IS important! Only then you can pick the right batch of tubes that sound good. I have also sylvania wgt's but they don't even come close to the jan philips wgta's concerning sound quality.
 The wgta is a newer, improved version of the wgt, wich was made for broadcasting purposes. It might even be that philips had their own specs for this batch and therefor sound better?!

 Not every wgta is the same, every brand has it's own signature.

 As Stuart said, even the russian 1578 has 3 variations wich all sound slightly different.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 And i saw in a list of highly regarded tubes specifically the jan philips wgta named as one of the best sounding tubes.


----------



## tourmaline

I found this about the jan philips wgta's:

 "6SN7WGTA JAN Philips or any other high quality 6SN7GT. I've tried RCA, Tung-Sol, Raytheon, various Sylvania '40s-'80s, GE and even the latest China production and all of 'em work fine. The JAN Philips 6SN7WGTA is my favorite because of it's* high reliability and very low noise*."

 Just like the russian 1578, they are very quit.


----------



## Jon L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The EH 6SN7 is constructed NOTHING like the 1578. If there is any similarity in would just be a happy coincidence. And IMHO the EH 6SN7 is about the worst sounding 6SN7 I have ever heard, though I have never listened to any Chinese ones._

 

LOL. Though I can totally see how a lot of people may feel that way about EH 6SN7 due to its complete lack of bloom or richness, I find it to make a nice clear driver tube for something like a 300B *if* the input tube before it has some nice harmonics, such as National Union Grey Glass 6SN7 or KenRad VT231.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL. Though I can totally see how a lot of people may feel that way about EH 6SN7 due to its complete lack of bloom or richness, I find it to make a nice clear driver tube for something like a 300B *if* the input tube before it has some nice harmonics, such as National Union Grey Glass 6SN7 or KenRad VT231._

 


 Some people use/used the EH gold as driver tube. It suppose to sound good if you mix it right with other tubes.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jon L* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL. Though I can totally see how a lot of people may feel that way about EH 6SN7 due to its complete lack of bloom or richness, I find it to make a nice clear driver tube for something like a 300B *if* the input tube before it has some nice harmonics, such as National Union Grey Glass 6SN7 or KenRad VT231._

 

I can see that. It is all about synergy, isn't it


----------



## Skylab

I have ordered some 6F8G's with adapters to try in my MPX3. Looking forward to checking these out. They are basically identical to the 6SN7GT electrically, but they do have a different pin configuration, and you need to account for the anode cap in the adapter. I ordered some adapters and a couple sets of tubes - looking forward to trying them.


----------



## jtwrace

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NO. Those tubes are a FLAT RIP-OFF. Just a basic Russian 6N8S with a metal base. No better than the black-base ones you can get for $1 each.

 The *actual* 1578 has a totally different plate structure - see here:

RARE! 1 USSR TUBE 1578=6SN7 Unique military development - eBay (item 260261138109 end time Jul-19-08 21:00:00 PDT)

 That one IS a 1578. Interesting tube. Some people think it's the best sounding 6SN7 there is - others (including me) were less than impressed. Personally - I wouldn't spend the jack for one. RCA, Ken-Rad, or Sylvania VT-231's all beat the pants off the 1578 IMHO._

 

What is the difference between these two tubes? Is there something different internally? Just becasue they are a $1 tube does it mean it can't be good? Just curious as most of the NOS tubes were just that way back when.


----------



## Skylab

Yes, they are different. The plate structure is completely different. Take a look.


----------



## jtwrace

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, they are different. The plate structure is completely different. Take a look._

 

OK. Got it!!! Now I just need to find the real ones....without spending $100 per tube. I've tried the RCA's, sylvaina and now have the Pope Hollands which I think are the best. Can you recommend anything that isn't crazy expensive like the TS round plates?

 Thanks-

 btw-Love this thread


----------



## Skylab

I think the Raytheon WGT's sound excellent, and can often be had for less than $50 per pair if you are patient.


----------



## tagosaku

Also, rebranded tube can be found cheaper. 
 If you are lucky even TS RP can be found at non premium price.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the Raytheon WGT's sound excellent, and can often be had for less than $50 per pair if you are patient._

 

They are nice indeed.


----------



## paul_lindemann

Outstanding compilation!

 I would add a line for the 6H8C/6N8S 1578 tube - Among the finest 6SN7 made. Russian military tube with a metal base and 1578 stamped on the glass.

 This tube has the best attributes of the finest 6SN7 tubes, the dynamics of the 6SN7W Sylvanias, the air and sheer musicality of the Tung Sol Round Plates, the clarity and detail of the Raytheon, and the midrange magic of the RCA.

 A rare tube that is still cheap, but getting expensive as more folk try them and find out what audio nirvana is all about (No, not THAT Nirvana!).


----------



## Black Stuart

Paul,
 I would agree entirely with what you say about the 1578 except that they ain´t cheap anymore.

 It´s strange but you either love this tube or hate it - I love it.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Paul,
 I would agree entirely with what you say about the 1578 except that they ain´t cheap anymore.

 It´s strange but you either love this tube or hate it - I love it._

 

I don't hate it, i told you i would rate it as the top 3 tube, but in my system the jan philips wgta's just work a little better.


----------



## tbooncharone

Totally agree with skylab comment with less than $50 this best you can buy [Raytheon WGT's].


----------



## Akabeth

Some really good info here, thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Though this still left me wondering:
Is there any website where one can get a current market pricing for all these 6SN7 variants?

 It seems complete packaging and intact lettering drives the prices up more than any factor so far I've seen so far. The prices on AudiogoN, eBay and various tube e-tailers are not so similar for many of these.


----------



## Aura

Not sure how recently (or frequently) this thread is updated, but a slight add-on needs to be made for the Brimar CV1988. I received a black base CV1988 the other day that was labeled 6SN7GT. It still is a Brimar CV1988, but not the brown-base 6SN7GTY version (the "Y" is the designation for the brown-base as already noted). 

 As for how it compares to the GTY, both Skylab and myself believe they sound exactly the same. It is still a CV1988, just a version that I had personally never seen before. Makes me wonder how rare it is...


----------



## Akabeth

I mean when I find pages like these...

http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6sn7.html

 The NOS tubes I'm staring down at are now 'triple'!!! the listed prices above. Of course I don't think it's up to date but still, this webpage can't be that old.


----------



## Aura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Akabeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean when I find pages like these...

6SN7 / 5692 Vacuum Tube List

 The NOS tubes I'm staring down at are now 'triple'!!! the listed prices above. Of course I don't think it's up to date but still, this webpage can't be that old._

 

Welcome to 6SN7 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. 

 The series as a whole has become very pricey with even relatively standard pairs seemingly commanding a premium (especially for NOS). 

 As for the dream pairs, such as the Mullard ECC32's, $350-400 per pair is the norm.


----------



## Rob N

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not sure how recently (or frequently) this thread is updated, but a slight add-on needs to be made for the Brimar CV1988. I received a black base CV1988 the other day that was labeled 6SN7GT. It still is a Brimar CV1988, but not the brown-base 6SN7GTY version (the "Y" is the designation for the brown-base as already noted). 

 As for how it compares to the GTY, both Skylab and myself believe they sound exactly the same. It is still a CV1988, just a version that I had personally never seen before. Makes me wonder how rare it is..._

 

I've got a couple of pairs of the black bases.Brimars are becoming increasing scarce and prices are rising


----------



## Skylab

Yeh, the fact that Tung-Sol 6SN7GT round plates are $400-500/pair is insane.


----------



## Akabeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeh, the fact that Tung-Sol 6SN7GT round plates are $400-500/pair is insane._

 

Apparently that's one of the types I'm looking at (as soon as I get this 6v psu sorted out) and it's more like US$450-'600!!' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for a NOS/matched VT-231 pair... that's from all the live listings I've checked. 

 That's good for a balanced HD650! -OR- 

 a NOS pair of Mullard ECC82 or RCA 6592 red base '*plus*' a few pairs of 6BL7GT's! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







  Quote:


 *This is MADNESS!!* 
 






 As much as I love listening to music and exploring gears, I know my limits


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeh, the fact that Tung-Sol 6SN7GT round plates are $400-500/pair is insane._

 

Wow, I remember when, oh well. I have a few pairs of the round plate tungsols. One pair is in a beautiful thick box for the military with nice deep printed blue, the boxes look just like when they were made back in the 1940's.. I like them fine but 6SN7's aren't my favorite. I also have more than a dozen of the Sylvania 1952 6SN7's in nos. The 6SN7 was one of the highest produced tubes of all time. I hope that they someday make some good new ones.


----------



## Akabeth

Do these premium tubes make 'that' much of a difference (or should I say improvement) to the sound of a system when implemented properly?

 Don't tell me this goes back to the 'try it first, talk later' bit?....


----------



## jamato8

In a good system they add that last bit of "you are there" and refinement. Some like the Tungsol round plates and some don't. I think they are very fine but also like the Sylvania 1952 model. I prefer a good 6DJ8 that is correctly implemented and I have some Russian Amperex 6DJ8's that are better than anything else I have heard in 6SN7's or 6DJ8's.


----------



## Akabeth

Refinement... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My wallet is gonna be in trouble this winter...

 *cough* Chinucifi-fi *cough* T_T


----------



## Skylab

No doubt good tubes can really make an amp shine. But like anything, it is about amp-tube-headphone synergy, and it is of course subject to diminishing returns.


----------



## ppl

Has anyone tried the generic Russian 6SN7GT from Antique radio supply part number T-6SN7GT-RUSSIA


----------



## Skylab

Hi Phil:

 I have, and was not impressed. Some Russian tubes are pretty good, but with the exception of the uber-expensive 1578, Russian 6SN7's have all been pretty bad, IMO. Certainly they will be blown away by even the very cheapest RCA or Sylvania 6SN7GTB.


----------



## ppl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Phil:

 I have, and was not impressed. Some Russian tubes are pretty good, but with the exception of the uber-expensive 1578, Russian 6SN7's have all been pretty bad, IMO. Certainly they will be blown away by even the very cheapest RCA or Sylvania 6SN7GTB._

 

Thanks, Are there any currently produced 6SN7's that are at least decent? sounding, In my situation paying $300 U.S.D. is not an option. The Primary reason i have not Played with tubes in over 30 years is the ridiculous prices demanded of NOS tubes resulting in low bang for the Buck in my use.

 I have Compared the NOS GE,RCA,Sylvania 6BL7GTA to the Russian 6SN7GT and liked the 6BL7GTA allot better regardless of brand. I assumed that the 6BL7GTA is just a better sounding tube than the 6SN7 however since i only compared the Russian types this may not be consistent.


----------



## shellylh

I won a brown base Tung-Sol USN-CTL 6sn7wgta (made in USA) off ebay pretty cheap. I am not expecting much but bought thought it seemed interesting. Has anyone tried it? 

 Can I use this 6sn7wgta's in the Extreme?

 Skylab said that the Sylvania 6sn7wgta could be used in the Extreme (and would sound good) so I assume they can all be used in the extreme but maybe not. 

 Haven't been able to get my hands on a reasonably priced Sylvania 6sn7wgta yet.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ppl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, Are there any currently produced 6SN7's that are at least decent? sounding, In my situation paying $300 U.S.D. is not an option. The Primary reason i have not Played with tubes in over 30 years is the ridiculous prices demanded of NOS tubes resulting in low bang for the Buck in my use.

 I have Compared the NOS GE,RCA,Sylvania 6BL7GTA to the Russian 6SN7GT and liked the 6BL7GTA allot better regardless of brand. I assumed that the 6BL7GTA is just a better sounding tube than the 6SN7 however since i only compared the Russian types this may not be consistent._

 

I understand the issue, Phil - I don't think it's reasonable to sell an amp you are making with NOS tubes - no one would expect that. 

 The Re-issued Tung-Sol 6SN7's are the best of the current production, IMO. Then the people who buy your amp can roll in their own.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shellylh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I won a brown base Tung-Sol USN-CTL 6sn7wgta (made in USA) off ebay pretty cheap. I am not expecting much but bought thought it seemed interesting. Has anyone tried it? 

 Can I use this 6sn7wgta's in the Extreme?

 Skylab said that the Sylvania 6sn7wgta could be used in the Extreme (and would sound good) so I assume they can all be used in the extreme but maybe not. 

 Haven't been able to get my hands on a reasonably priced Sylvania 6sn7wgta yet._

 

Yes, you can use this as the driver tube in the Extreme, and it's a pretty good sounding tube, too!


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ppl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, Are there any currently produced 6SN7's that are at least decent? sounding, In my situation paying $300 U.S.D. is not an option. The Primary reason i have not Played with tubes in over 30 years is the ridiculous prices demanded of NOS tubes resulting in low bang for the Buck in my use.

 I have Compared the NOS GE,RCA,Sylvania 6BL7GTA to the Russian 6SN7GT and liked the 6BL7GTA allot better regardless of brand. I assumed that the 6BL7GTA is just a better sounding tube than the 6SN7 however since i only compared the Russian types this may not be consistent._

 

6BL7GTAs dont compare to the best nos 6SN7s foir gain duty. As an output tub in the SP headamps the 6BL7GTA is superb. One problem .... the 6BL7GTA has the 6SN7 pinout but they draw 1.5 amps of heater current vs 0.6 amps for a 6SN7. Using this tube in place of a 6sn7 could burn up your power transformer in many amps. Make sure you check your power trasformer rating.


----------



## paul_lindemann

Pretty spot on thread of the Russian tubes!

 IMHO, the 1578 Russian tube is in the top two or three 6SN7 tubes ever manufactured. In my system, the 1578 has better air, depth and sheer musicality compared to the Tung Sol round plates and Sylvania 6SN7Ws - which are among the best of the best tubes on most folks list!

 As far as bang for the buck tubes consider:

 1. Sylvania 6SN7WGTA - Slam, Speed and detailed, but with a very musical soul and a touch of warmth throughout the bandwidth. Beware of the post 1970 versions of this tube with the black base, as they tend to sound much drier and lack the musical PRAT of the brown base earlier versions. Matched pairs can be found around $109.

 2. Sylvania 6SN7 circa 1950's white label with leaf insignia - very similar tooling to the VT231, but without the price tag! Nice warmth and ambiance. Matched pairs can be found as low as $59.

 3. CBS Hytron 6SN7 - Great clarity and ambiance. Liquid smooth sound throughout the sound spectrum. The perfect tube to tame a harsh or aggressive system! Matched pairs can be found as low as $69.

 Disclaimer: I deal in NOS tubes, so take my comments for what they are worth.


----------



## paul_lindemann

An excerp from my post earlier today - 

 1. Sylvania 6SN7WGTA - Slam, Speed and detailed, but with a very musical soul and a touch of warmth throughout the bandwidth. Beware of the post 1970 versions of this tube with the black base, as they tend to sound much drier and lack the musical PRAT of the brown base earlier versions. Matched pairs can be found around $109.


----------



## Rob N

Does anyone know how to decode Brimar/STC date codes?

 The CV1988 labelled ones are relatively easy because they carry a two letter or 4 digit code see here,it's the civilan ones which only carry a code like this 3L8 384

 I have the following Brimar 6SN7GT's pairs:-

 CV1988 brownbase VK (Oct 1964) FE (STC Oldway plant) 4L8 384
 CV1988 blackbase XL (Nov 1966) FE (STC Oldway plant) 4L5 383
 CV1988 blackbase XB (Feb 1966) FE (STC Oldway plant) 3J5 383

 Non military pair
 6SN7GT brownbase 1C9 384 on one tube and 3L8 384 on the other


----------



## shellylh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, you can use this as the driver tube in the Extreme, and it's a pretty good sounding tube, too!_

 

Thanks skylab. Looks like I will be having some fun tube rolling next weekend. I currently have a Ken-Rad VT-231 and a couple of RCA USN CRC 6sn7-gt's that came with the Extreme when I bought it (although I think one of the RCAs is going bad).


----------



## Torero

Has someone used the true 1578 tube or the Sophia 6SN7?


 Must revive this thread. More opinions.


----------



## Happy Camper

Should be a tube sticky.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Torero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has someone used the true 1578 tube or the Sophia 6SN7?


 Must revive this thread. More opinions._

 

I've used the Sophia 6SN7. Nice tube, but not worth the money, IMO. No better than your run of the mill RCA or Sylvania NOS tube, which sells for half of what the Sophia sells for, or less. Still, nice to see some new current production 6SN7's.


----------



## Speederlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've used the Sophia 6SN7. Nice tube, but not worth the money, IMO. No better than your run of the mill RCA or Sylvania NOS tube, which sells for half of what the Sophia sells for, or less. Still, nice to see some new current production 6SN7's._

 

How about the Shuguang Treasure 6SN7GT? That sells for in the vicinity of $320 from Woo and Grant Fidelity. Vastly not worth it or....

 edit - you replied here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/shu...oughts-444038/

 Thanks.


----------



## Skylab

I just answered this question in the thread you started for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Overall, it's a very nice tube. Sounded good as the driver tube in my Darkvoice 336SE, and in my Wheatfield HA-2. However, it's NOT as good as the real Mullard CV181/ECC32, and it's not much cheaper. Admittedly, ECC32's have continued to climb in price - a while back I got some nice NOS ones for $150 each - now they seem to sell for more like $250 each, which is kinda nuts. But the Shuguang, while very good, is just not the same. 

 So is it worth $the current asking price of $275 a pair? IMHO, no. I prefer the $200/pair Brimar CV1988, and frankly even the Tung-Sol tall bottle 6SN7WGT, which are usually less than $100/pair, although kinda hard to find._


----------



## Speederlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just answered this question in the thread you started for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :_

 






 Yup, thanks.

 How about the 6SN7GT Tung-Sol? It's not the tall bottle 6SN7WGT but it seems more expensive - $350 for a pair - (not saying expensive = good, but demand must be pushing the price). What is the difference between the two?


----------



## Skylab

You clearly mean the black-glass, round plate Tung-Sol 6SN7GT. Those sound great, no doubt. If you have the money, they are really nice sounding tubes. If you're patient, you can get them for less than $300/pair, too.

 The 6SN7WGT's are totally different - different looking and sounding. They are a little less warm, for one. But I think the tall-bottle WGT's sound really good, and are the "bargain" of the vintage/NOS super-6SN7's. JMO, of course (and I still prefer the ECC32).


----------



## Speederlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You clearly mean the black-glass, round plate Tung-Sol 6SN7GT. Those sound great, no doubt. If you have the money, they are really nice sounding tubes. If you're patient, you can get them for less than $300/pair, too._

 

Yup, those are the ones.

 So black-glass, round plate Tung-Sol 6SN7GT vs CV181/ECC32 Mullard 
 You go Mullard, yes?


----------



## Speederlander

Also, Standard Radio 33S30B / 5692 / 6SN7. Anyone have comments on this tube? Worth the high price?


----------



## regal

This is a good thread, but for some reason I prefer the Sylvania and RCA 6n7GTB's to the older 6sn7gt and 7n7's, I must be the odd man out on this. The sound just seems fresher and more live.


----------



## regal

Well I found that there must have been something wrong with my Sylvania 6SN7GT and 7N7, they sound distand and hollow, probably bad tubes.

 I did find a pair of grey glass RCA VT-231 and these are perfect for me, never heard any amp so good. The Stacker II is very revealing almost SS like and these tend to help add some weight.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Speederlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup, those are the ones.

 So black-glass, round plate Tung-Sol 6SN7GT vs CV181/ECC32 Mullard 
 You go Mullard, yes?_

 

That's a subjective decision. TS 6SN7GT round plate in smoke glass is considered the best 6SN7 by many people.

 Both are rare, but I saw a NOS pair sold at $199. So, with luck, you can snatch one for a cheaper than $300.


----------



## regal

Just got a pair of National Union 6SNTGT's. Half black glass. The bass is just unbelieveable, I can't believe how much better the quality/quantity of the bass is with these tubes I've tried Sylvania 231s, RCA 231's, the usual GTBs. The midrange is still very nice too. NU are my favorites so far, don't hear about them as much. Guess I need to try the Ken-Rads but damn they are pricey.


----------



## KBerube80

this is the greatest 6sn7 thread in the history of the world.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a subjective decision. TS 6SN7GT round plate in smoke glass is considered the best 6SN7 by many people.

 Both are rare, but I saw a NOS pair sold at $199. So, with luck, you can snatch one for a cheaper than $300._

 

I hear/read many think they are tie with the sylvania w's. Many think the russian 1578 is the best 6sn7 around. Hence they dried up quickly... It all depends on the amp you use the tubes in and probably your preference.

 I heard quite alot of 6sn7 tubes and thus far the jan/philips, 1578 russians and the sylvania w's are my top 3, in no particular order. depending on the amp and mods, i could happely live with either of those. if we talk driver tubes, i give the notch to the jan/philips and the sylvania w's as i think the russians are better as a powertube...


----------



## monsieurguzel

I was actually curious about the quality of a 6SN7 tube in relation to the different roles it plays in an amp. I know that the WA22 and WA5, the 6SN7 is used as a driver and not a power tube. I am wondering how important the quality of the 6SN7 is if it is used as a driver? Is it worth investing in the really high end NOS 6SN7 tubes (ie Tung Sol Round Plate) if it is only used as a driver tube? For example, I read that Ken Rad VT-231s have very good deep bass, but does this characteristic show up when used as a driver tube? If not, I'm wondering how important tube rolling is for driver tubes...


----------



## rosgr63

There is also a Tung-Sol Black Glass with square mica not oval or round.
 As for the 1578's the ones with the perforated plates are supposed to be the best.


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for the 1578's the ones with the perforated plates are supposed to be the best._

 

Quite expensive for russian tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

For a matched pair with the 1578 logo on the glass you could pay $200.
 For a similar pair from the Metz factory without the logo $100-$120.
 I don't know what the difference is they look exactly the same!


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For a matched pair with the 1578 logo on the glass you could pay $200.
 For a similar pair from the Metz factory without the logo $100-$120.
 I don't know what the difference is they look exactly the same!_

 

I've been paying $50-$70 for nice VT231/GT's, used to paying $20 max for russian tubes, are these really that good? What is their sonic signature closest to NOS wise?


----------



## Skylab

I seem to be a bit of an outlier on this opinion, but I have never been impressed by the 1578's. They sound dry and clinical to me. I have a very nice pair, was NOS/NIB when I got them from a super-reputable seller. Have the multi-hole plates, stamped 1578. But I thought they were just OK - nothing special. I'd take a decent Sylvania or RCA 6SN7GT over the 1578 any day, let alone a Tung-Sol, Raytheon, or Hytron


----------



## rosgr63

I will refer you to another thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/6sn...31/index5.html, maybe you can find some info from people who actually use or have used them.
 I have a pair but I am so happy with my Tung-Sol Mickey Ears (with a cracked base, I am not using my spare one) that I haven't checked them out yet!


----------



## regal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I seem to be a bit of an outlier on this opinion, but I have never been impressed by the 1578's. They sound dry and clinical to me. I have a very nice pair, was NOS/NIB when I got them from a super-reputable seller. Have the multi-hole plates, stamped 1578. But I thought they were just OK - nothing special. I'd take a decent Sylvania or RCA 6SN7GT over the 1578 any day, let alone a Tung-Sol, Raytheon, or Hytron 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thankyou, great when this forum saves me money ! I very happy with my RCA & NU GTs. I'll stick with them and save for a Raytheon or Tung-Sol one day.


----------



## rosgr63

Skylab I am Sorry you answered before me, thanks!


----------



## mrarroyo

I recently started using a Russian 6H8C from the earlie 1980's in the driver position of my Singlepower MPX3. I much prefer its sound to other offerings from GE, RCA, Brimar, etc.


----------



## rosgr63

Miguel have you tried the Sylvania 6SN7W, or any Black Glass Tung Sols?


----------



## mrarroyo

I have to look, I recall trying a Sylvania brown base.


----------



## SpudHarris




----------



## Magb

Hello.
   
  The details about Rayhteon 6sn7WGT, what year are we talking about here? I have some from the early 70's.
  Would be nice to hear what other people think about them, just as good as earlier models or?


----------



## tjkurita

What is with the three pages of spam by "favaBabs?"
   
  Anyway, I bought a burned-in pair of Shuguang Treasure CV181s.  As most of you know, they are a 6SN7 but shaped and named like a CV181, which, as we know, has too much heater draw for our purposes.  I plugged them into my amp and I heard some very interesting things.  These tubes gained a very good reputation thanks to reviews such as Mark Wheeler's at TNT-Audio.  To make a long, somewhat long-winded review short, they were the best 6SN7 type he had ever heard.  He focused particularly on the resolution and the inner detail of the CV181.  But he also writes that it images better, has better dynamics (macro and micro), is faster, stronger, hipper, lighter, sexier.  The whole package.  Of course, I had to try them. 
   
  My favorite tube and the reference 6SN7 in my system is the Sylvania 6SN7GTA short bottle chrome top from the 50s.  The Syl. has great detail, wonderful air, the high end is sparkly and yet refined without any harshness.  The bass is tight and low and strong.  It keeps things quick, but I personally think the rectifier tube affects the speed of an amp more than the driver.  The Syl. images wonderfully and the image is tight and solid and holographic.  I figured I would plug in the CV181 and get all of these qualities only MORE SO.  Like it would be a Syl. GTA just with more gain.  More power.  More authority. 
   
  I was wrong.  Immediately, the CV181 was underwhelming at best.  The only thing about it that met my expectations was the higher gain.  It is a higher gain tube than what I was using (for some reason).  The high end went all muted and cut off.  The high end detail in particular suffered significantly.  The resolution in general also decreased significantly.  The bass was out of control.  It lost all tightness and became wooly and one-note-ish.  The soundstage flattened out and lost cohesion...  It wasn't harsh.  It was almost the opposite of harsh.  Not brittle.  So it has that going for it.  I've heard brittle sounding Chinese tubes and I always thought that was the signature of Sino tubes.  These break that mold. 
   
  I dare say that my Sylvania GTBs from the 50's (taller, chrome top, yellow labels) sound better.  And the GTAs sound significantly better than the GTBs. 
   
  Now, this is not a review as much as it is a long question.  If the CV181 has the EXACT OPPOSITE effect in my system than it does in a lot of other systems, and if my favorite is the GTA, what kinds of additional 6SN7s should I be looking for?  BTW: the GTA sounds better than my Ken Rad dark glass and VT-231s by Sylvania and Tung-Sol something or others I have lying around.  Should I just look for more of the same?  Is there better?  Also, I'm curious, has anyone else had similar results to mine? 
   
  Here is my system:  Sylvania big bottle 5AR4 rectifiers, choked power supply, 6SN7 driving 300B SET, Cain and Cain back-loaded horns with a single fostex full range driver and super tweeters.  All cables are 47 Labs OTA single strand copper.  I tested soundstage and imaging using speakers because I don't consider imaging as much of an issue with HP.  The ultimate soundstage compliment I can give a supra-aural headphone (or any headphone for that matter) is if they sound like they disappear.  In my opinion this is as good as imaging can get with a headphone.  Speakers image as if the musicians are right in the room, sitting in front of you.  HP can't really do that. 
   
  Any comments or advice or invitations to tube rolling parties would be welcome.


----------



## audiquattro

That is a cool setup my friend.
   
  Quote: 





tjkurita said:


> Here is my system:  Sylvania big bottle 5AR4 rectifiers, choked power supply, 6SN7 driving 300B SET, Cain and Cain back-loaded horns with a single fostex full range driver and super tweeters.  All cables are 47 Labs OTA single strand copper.  I tested soundstage and imaging using speakers because I don't consider imaging as much of an issue with HP.  The ultimate soundstage compliment I can give a supra-aural headphone (or any headphone for that matter) is if they sound like they disappear.  In my opinion this is as good as imaging can get with a headphone.  Speakers image as if the musicians are right in the room, sitting in front of you.  HP can't really do that.
> 
> Any comments or advice or invitations to tube rolling parties would be welcome.


 
  I also agree that using speaker system is better reference than headphone system when all the placement and equipment matched properly.  I use similar setup with 6sn7 driver + 6sn7 phase splitter in a parellel 300B SET monos to drive 12" full range drivers.
  I also got the treasure CV181s / Sylvania 6SN7W / TS round plate oval and round type + another 20 other types of 6SN7 variants.  I didn't want to get the Mullard ECC32 just yet because of the price, gain and higher current requirement.
  After listening to a bunch of different 6sn7 over time,  my favorite still goes to the reference tube TS round plate oval as it is the best natural and transparent sounding tube in my setup.  I thought the higher gain from the cv181 would be a good thing but it is not always the case.  I lost the transparency from the TS round plate oval.   The bass didn't increase a whole lot to a noticeable level.   In any case,  the treasure CV181s / Sylvania 6SN7W are quite similar except the CV181 sounds a tad darker and richer.   I also found that TS round plate oval plate sounds better than the TS round plate round shape plate as it sounds the more transparent.
   
  I believe that you have too much gain with CV181 in your amp.   You would definitely loose the high frequency.   Just keep in my that they are not direct plugin replacement.  I felt it slightly in my setup but still acceptable.  I wish they have silver plated leg instead of gold.


----------



## mikey8811

I was reading this great thread and was wondering if anyone has experience tube rolling with the 6SN7 in a Cary SLP 05 preamp. I just purchased a Cary SLP 05 as a preamp and my setup is as follows

 Cary Audio SLP-05 Preamp > Krell FPB 200 c Power Amp > Dynaudio Contour S3.4 Speakers

 I moved from a Krell KRC preamp which I found too neutral for my liking and was looking for more tube dimensionality and bloom. The Cary SLP 05 gives me that "live" atmosphere and soundstaging but I find that brass and horn instruments are still on the bright and harsh side with the stock EH 6SN7 tubes. It could be the Krell power amp. As such I thought of tube rolling and trying out some other tubes to hopefully give me more warmth and I guess a more euphonic and traditional tube sound. Would you be kind enough to suggest some tubes I could try out?
 I have been recommended the Brimar 6SN7, RCA 5922 or RCA 6SN7 GTB (am confused between silver and orange labels). I searched online am told that the former has microphony and is not suitable for a preamp.

 To start of with I will swap tubes 3 & 6, the balanced tubes and keep the existing EH 6SN7's in the other positions.

 Look forward to any feedback especially from folk with specific SLP 05 experience.

 Thanks


----------



## jamato8

The RCA 5692 is IMO a poor sounding tube. It is lifeless and actually has a different operating range than a true 6SN7 as it is a long life tube, 10,000 hours, and has a lower voltage rating. The EH you are using would sound grainy and it not a good tube to stick with. There are Sylvania chrome domes that would be better or Tung-sol WTB. There are many and many that are better than the EH.


----------



## Skylab

I put Tung-Sol 6SN7GT black-glass round-plate tubes in my Cary SLP-05 and never looked back. The sound with the BGRP is absolutely astonishing. I couldn't sell my Krell preamp fast enough after getting the Cary


----------



## dminches

jamato8 said:


> The RCA 5692 is IMO a poor sounding tube. It is lifeless and actually has a different operating range than a true 6SN7 as it is a long life tube, 10,000 hours, and has a lower voltage rating. The EH you are using would sound grainy and it not a good tube to stick with. There are Sylvania chrome domes that would be better or Tung-sol WTB. There are many and many that are better than the EH.




I am using a pair of 5692s in my modwright transporter and think it sounds great. It is very detailed, yet warm. I like it a lot better than the pair of shuguang cv181s that I was using.


----------



## jamato8

I like the 5691, which are the 10,000 hour version of the 6SL7 but like the 5692, have to be run at lower operating points. I am glad the 5692 is working well for you. I have not encountered many people who like them but what matters is what you hear. I have the red and the yellow base versions and late 1950's and 60's so I have tried many different versions.


----------



## Todd R

Quote: 





tjkurita said:


> What is with the three pages of spam by "favaBabs?"
> 
> Anyway, I bought a burned-in pair of Shuguang Treasure CV181s.  As most of you know, they are a 6SN7 but shaped and named like a CV181, which, as we know, has too much heater draw for our purposes.  I plugged them into my amp and I heard some very interesting things.  These tubes gained a very good reputation thanks to reviews such as Mark Wheeler's at TNT-Audio.  To make a long, somewhat long-winded review short, they were the best 6SN7 type he had ever heard.  He focused particularly on the resolution and the inner detail of the CV181.  But he also writes that it images better, has better dynamics (macro and micro), is faster, stronger, hipper, lighter, sexier.  The whole package.  Of course, I had to try them.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I had the Shuguang Treasure CV181 tubes in 2 different components at 2 different times, and both times had the same impression.
  They are smooth & creamy sounding with a large soundstage, but they are lacking high end extension and are extremely soft sounding with no dynamics or punch.
  In other words....BORING!
  I wouldn't use them unless your system was unbareably bright & edgy.


----------



## Skylab

Todd, I agree. Was never impressed by the Shuggie CV181. 

I also like the sound of the RCA red-base 5692. Sounds good to me - my only complaint about them (other than the price) is they don't glow much


----------



## jamato8

Well looking at the prices of the black plate 5692 red base in NOS, I guess I made a good investment. :^) I noticed it was 10 years ago I was discussing the 5692 on Audio Asylum. Time just accelerates by.


----------



## mikey8811

Hi Jamato
   
  Are you saying you think the RCA 5692 is unsuitable for the Cary SLP 05? Are they the same as RCA 6SN7 GTB's ? Pardon me as I am a newbie to tube rolling. I don't mind a rolled off sound in exchange for more warmth but would like to avoid operating problems that cause problems in the preamp.
   
  How much would the set me back? As I am trying them out, I do not want to spend too much.
   
  Thanks


----------



## jamato8

I don't know the operating voltages and the resistors used in the Cary. I would ask Cary Audio. The tubes will work in the Cary but they will not last the 10,000 hours as they will be run at higher than intended operating points. The preamp will not have a problem with the tubes. 
   
  How much will what set you back? The 5692 red base appear to cost over $100 each now. There are also different versions and manufactures. GE produced many as did some others. RCA's were made by GE. There are different versions of the RCA marked tubes as in grey plate and black plate. The black plate was generally earlier in production. In the 5691 I prefer the black plate but that is a 6SL7 type, which is a voltage amplification tube vs the 6SN7 is a current tube and they have a different mu. Anyway, some really like the 5692 but you are going to pay out some money for NOS and I personally never like used tubes as you have know idea how they have been run and I have often found they do not have the best sound unless they have been lightly used.


----------



## mikey8811

I'll write to Cary for the details but I am confused about the RCA 6SN7 GTB's - are they the same as the 5692 you describe? I was recommended the RCA 6SN7 GTB grey glass (see link below)
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item1c1b62dded&item=120718548461&nma=true&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&rt=nc&si=z1kT0vv5a%252B0XGjEUEVas0NAB80k%253D
   
  Are they the same ones?
   
  Thanks


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





mikey8811 said:


> I'll write to Cary for the details but I am confused about the RCA 6SN7 GTB's - are they the same as the 5692 you describe? I was recommended the RCA 6SN7 GTB grey glass (see link below)
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item1c1b62dded&item=120718548461&nma=true&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&rt=nc&si=z1kT0vv5a%252B0XGjEUEVas0NAB80k%253D
> 
> ...


 
  They perform the same function but have different electrical operating points. You can use the 6SN7 GTB. The 6SN7GTB and 5692 will do the same thing but again the working voltages are lower for the 5692 but I don't know the operating points of the Cary. I would email them or call. They are normally very helpful. I used to do woodwork for them years ago in custom bases for their amplifiers and they always tried to keep customers informed.


----------



## Skylab

The Cary will work fine with any 6SN7 - you can even use an ECC32, but they don't fit in the chassis very well, sadly.
   
  I liked 5692's in my SLP-05, but I like the Tung-Sol BGRP much better.


----------



## mikey8811

I wrote to Cary, they say most of these 6SN7's will work but they do not have much experience tuberolling with NOS tubes, preferring instead to make the best out of current production tubes. They referred me to Upscale Audio.
   
  I was going to spring for the black-base RCA 6SN7 GT Grey Glass or RCA VT-231 for $100 a pair or the RCA 6SN7 GTB's for $50 a pair.
   
  However, Upscale Audio cautions me on using the RCA VT-231, RCA 6SN7 GT or  Grey Glass, RCA 6SN7 GTB's in a preamp because of high microphonics. Specifically he says that they will be noisy and  cause quite a bit of distortion, loud howling noises, ringing, and be generally unpleasant to listen to.  These tubes are only suitable in the driver stage of an amplifier, or a tube output buffer as microphonics are not an issue in those types of circuits.
   
  Now I am pretty confused.
   
  Any thoughts especially in the context of the Cary SLP 05 ?


----------



## jamato8

I never had much in the way with microphonics with those tubes. And if in the driver position, that is where a microphonic tube would be noticed. I have gotten more noise though with the grey glass but I never really liked that tube anyway.


----------



## Todd R

Quote: 





mikey8811 said:


> However, Upscale Audio cautions me on using the RCA VT-231, RCA 6SN7 GT or  Grey Glass, RCA 6SN7 GTB's in a preamp because of high microphonics. Specifically he says that they will be noisy and  cause quite a bit of distortion, loud howling noises, ringing, and be generally unpleasant to listen to.  These tubes are only suitable in the driver stage of an amplifier, or a tube output buffer as microphonics are not an issue in those types of circuits.


 
  I've used RCA Grey glass tubes with no problems at all. I had microphonics with Ken-Rad tubes.


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





todd r said:


> I've used RCA Grey glass tubes with no problems at all. I had microphonics with Ken-Rad tubes.


 
  I don't find Upscale's comments make much sense.


----------



## Todd R

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> I don't find Upscale's comments make much sense.


 


 Maybe Kevin has some other tubes he needs to get rid of?


----------



## jamato8

Maybe from that special cookie jar. :^)


----------



## Skylab

I think Upscle Audio has nice tubes, but they charge CRAZY prices.


----------



## dannie01

Agree! I had a pair Ken Rad VT-231 for the WA5LE and they were crazily microphonic whenever I touched the amp or even dial the volume knob. Finally swapped a pair Sylvania 6SN7 chrome top short bottle with the seller, they are slightly microphonic too, but sound very good especially in clasical music. 
  
  Quote: 





todd r said:


> I had microphonics with Ken-Rad tubes.


----------



## jamato8

I like tubes that are slightly microphonic, not enough that they pick up everything like a microphone, but just a touch.


----------



## dminches

Why is that?

My pair of TS BGRPs in my modwright are slightly microphonic. It has never bothered me.


----------



## jamato8

Why is what? I like a slightly microphonic tube as it adds more life and dimension to the sound. I like the acoustical affect on the music.


----------



## Wedge

I don't mind a slightly microphonic tube, but I am not a huge fan of really noisy tubes.


----------



## Skylab

ALL tubes are at least slightly microphonic.


----------



## Wedge

I guess I meant a little more than slightly microphonic.


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





skylab said:


> ALL tubes are at least slightly microphonic.


 
  Well yes but I think you know what we are getting at. It is like adding reverb to a dry recording to give it life, which is done for many studio recordings or they fall flat. 
  
  Quote:


wedge said:


> I guess I meant a little more than slightly microphonic.


 
  The old pencil eraser test. Rap, rap, hey this tube is microphonic. Look, whack, whack, see I can hear that!! what a junk tube! :^) Playing with some of the old tubes that I like, late 1920's to the early 1930's, there are some real gems. Some would make excellent microphones. Others have just the right touch. It is all about balance.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> Well yes but I think you know what we are getting at. It is like adding reverb to a dry recording to give it life, which is done for many studio recordings or they fall flat.


 
   
  Indeed, I was just playing.  Yes, sometimes a slightly microphonic tube can sound better than one that isn't. Unless a tube is horribly microphonic, I really don;t worry about it.


----------



## mikey8811

Hi
   
  After a long and fruitless attempt trying to hunt down some RCA Grey Glass 6SN7's , I came across these on eBay
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320713374641
   
  They don't look like a matched pair as the colour of the lettering on each tube label is different.
   
  The seller description says:
   
  [size=x-small][size=large][size=medium]104 & 102 and 102 & 102, well above typical NOS tubes reading. The minimum good reading of the 6SN7 tube on this tester is 50 & 50. Short and Gas testings passed for both tubes.[/size][/size][/size]
   
  Sound OK?
   
  How do these military spec ones sound ? Anyone try them in the balanced output positions ie. tube nos. 3 & 6 in a Cary SLP 05 preamp? Or would I be better off with the black base silver label RCA 6SN7 GTB's?
   
  Thanks


----------



## jamato8

Hard to say what you would be better off with as everyones ear is different. I have a number of the grey glass 6SN7's and I always found them to be too warm for my liking and lacking in clean detail. They have followers so for the right price they are worth a listen I guess. As far as internal construction on the two being exactly the same, I wouldn't know from the image. They appear to be made in 1945 and 1944.


----------



## dminches

He is a good seller.  I have purchased stuff from him before and I have been pleased.  That's not to say that you will like the sound of the tubes...


----------



## mikey8811

Hi
   
  Thanks for the feedback.
   
  Not much luck winning these auctions.
   
  Currently bidding on similar RCA VT-231 Grey Glass, Brimar 6SN7 GT, Tungsol BGRP (long shot - looks very expensive) and black base clear glass RCA 6SN7 GTB from 1950's.
   
  Would someone with the experience characterise the sounds of these tubes relative to each other and the red base RCA 5692's?
   
  Thanks


----------



## mikey8811

Hi
   
  Up for some feedback please.
   
  This is my impression based on research (mostly from this thread and other online sources) - your comments please on if they are appropriate.
   
  [size=smaller][size=larger]1. RCA 5692 Red Base - a long shot as this seems expensive (the best of the RCA's with a warm midrange, wide soundstage, smooth highs which are still somewhat extended, laid back and maybe rolled off)

 2. Brimar 6SN7 GT - most likely the black base clear glass as the brown base dark glass one is probably too expensive (warm with a wide soundstage and smooth extended highs but more dynamic than the RCA sound)

 3. Tungsol Black Glass Round Plates - again a long shot as it is probably over my budget (the best all rounder with all the above attributes quite balanced out)

 4. RCA VT-231 Grey Glass (a poorer cousin of the 5692 red base with similar attributes at a lower price)

 5. RCA 6SN7 GTB - (one more notch down in the RCA sound with similar attributes at a lower price)[/size][/size]
   
  Also, do preamp tubes need to be matched pairs? I keep getting conflicting opinions on this. Cary says yes but many others say only power tubes need matching.


----------



## Anaxilus

.


----------



## williaty

Is there any way to use a multimeter to verify that a 6SN7 is "safe" or not? Obviously, it can't tell you if there's still life in the tube, but can you at least test resistances between pins to verify that it isn't shorted and won't blow up your amp?


----------



## Elysian

This thread is a lifesaver!  Been hunting all over for 6SN7 (NOS and new production) reviews, and I think this thread has saved me a lot of wallet pain.
   
  Does anyone have experience pairing the new production Electro Harmonix 6SN7 (gold pin) with either the Shuguang Gold Treasure 300B-Z or Psvane 300B-T tubes?  I realize the pairing will also depend on how I want to adjust the final SQ of the gear.
   
  Seems like the majority of people feel the new production Electro Harmonix 6SN7 tubes have better bass and overall precision in the sound than the Shuguang Treasure 6SN7 at a fraction of the price.  The EHes also seem to compare well with the NOS Sylvania and Tung Sol 6SN7s.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





elysian said:


> This thread is a lifesaver!  Been hunting all over for 6SN7 (NOS and new production) reviews, and I think this thread has saved me a lot of wallet pain.
> 
> Does anyone have experience pairing the new production Electro Harmonix 6SN7 (gold pin) with either the Shuguang Gold Treasure 300B-Z or Psvane 300B-T tubes?  I realize the pairing will also depend on how I want to adjust the final SQ of the gear.
> 
> Seems like the *majority of people feel the new production Electro Harmonix 6SN7 tubes have better bass and overall precision in the sound than the Shuguang Treasure 6SN7 *at a fraction of the price.  The EHes also seem to compare well with the NOS Sylvania and Tung Sol 6SN7s.


 

 Not sure where you got this impression? I happen to have the  EH Golds and Treasures and the Treasures are much better tubes IMO. Cleaner, more balanced and extended.


----------



## Elysian

From some of the posts earlier in this thread, as well as various impressions on the Treasures on other forums.
   
  Aside from the Grant Fidelity testimonials, yours is one of the few comments I've seen that say the Treasures are both cleaner and more extended.  One of the main complaints I've read about the Treasures is that they don't reproduce certain frequencies that well.  At least from what others have said the Treasures seem good if there are particular imbalances in the system.  The Tung Sols seem to be well-favored, but I'd prefer new production over NOS.
   
  I'll probably need to pick up a quad of 6SN7s soon, so I'm looking for something with a good price-performance ratio (with good soundstaging, bass, and transparency), and is reliable.


----------



## Anaxilus

Agreed w/ MH.  I have not heard the EH gold pins but the standard EH's are crap and my bottom of the barrel tube.  I have not heard a worse tube.  I need to get rid of all of them.  Pretty much worthless IMO.  The current Tung Sol GTB's are better than the EH's generally IME.  They look identical in build to the EH's except brown base but the GTB's have a bit more chrome on top than the EH's.  I've been through about 8 GTB's and 6 EH's, pretty consistent difference IMO.  Not night and day but enough to matter.  Though I'm dealing w/ 6 output tubes so YMMV.  The Treasure I heard was bright, analytical, precise, weak on the low end if it had any.  The EH's were flabby, bloated, distorted crap.


----------



## Elysian

I don't think the new production EH gold pins are any different than the black bottoms, other than the pins.  That's interesting, as that's the most negative impression I've heard on the EHes.  Hmm, looks like I need to keep looking then.  That's unfortunate about hearing the possible weakness in the low-end, as I'm looking for a tube with good low-end reproduction.
   
  Any suggestions on any new production 6SN7 to match with Psvane or Treasure 300Bs?  I read negative comments on the Sophia Electrics, and people were pretty unanimous on preferring the Sylvania 6SN7GTA and GTBs.


----------



## Anaxilus

I've used some older 50's Sylvania GTA's w/ the heavy chrome domes and they can be nice but are analytical.  Less precise than the Treasures but better balanced overall for my setup.  The current Tung Sol GTB's can be pretty decent and add some low end body w/o too much compromise but I've cherry picked quite a few and left the rest to sit w/ the EH's.  I haven't been too impressed w/ consistency of the new Russian stuff in my limited experience.


----------



## Todd R

Quote: 





elysian said:


> Seems like the majority of people feel the new production Electro Harmonix 6SN7 tubes have better bass and overall precision in the sound than the Shuguang Treasure 6SN7 at a fraction of the price.  The EHes also seem to compare well with the NOS Sylvania and Tung Sol 6SN7s.


 


  I'd go with the EH tubes, they are reliable quiet and not too expensive. They don't sound bad, and they don't really have any charictaristic that stands out. Rather neutral, not terribly exciting, but acceptable sound.  
   
  I've had the Shuguang Treasures on 2 occasions in 2 different types of components, and don't like them. They have a big rich sound, and may impress you at first until you realize they have all the dynamic punch of a sponge. Soft & soggy. 
   
  The "new" Tung-Sol reissues I did not like either. Cheap enough and quiet, but edgy, gritty and irritating. Pulled back out of the system within a couple days. 
 Anybody want them? I'll sell them cheap.


----------



## Skylab

I wasn't wild about the Treasures, I thought they sounded good but were overpriced.  The EH 6SN7 on the other hand is a disaster IMO.  Actually sounds BAD.  Had them in my Cary SLP-05 and it's a good thing I had a bunch of other 6SN7's to use or I would never have known what they Cary can be.  Even the cheapest Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounds much better than the EH, and are actually cheaper! Heck, many vintage Russian 6H8C's sound better than the EH, and those can be had for $2-3 per tube.


----------



## Todd R

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I wasn't wild about the Treasures, I thought they sounded good but were overpriced.  The EH 6SN7 on the other hand is a disaster IMO.  Actually sounds BAD.  Had them in my Cary SLP-05 and it's a good thing I had a bunch of other 6SN7's to use or I would never have known what they Cary can be.  Even the cheapest Sylvania 6SN7GTB sounds much better than the EH, and are actually cheaper! Heck, many vintage Russian 6H8C's sound better than the EH, and those can be had for $2-3 per tube.


 


  Treasures are definitely overpriced.
  So far my preference has been NOS Sylvania tubes, but I don't know where you find them priced cheaper than an EH (Let me know your secret, I won't tell).
  I also like the RCA Grey glass if you need a little darker sound.


----------



## Elysian

Hmm... so if I'm trying to keep a quad of 6SN7s below $200ish, my best options are probably the NOS Sylvania, and as a lower priority, the new production EHes?
   
  Are there any options to look at in that price band, or even better, as part of new production stock?  There seem to be a lot of great 300B options, but the 6SN7 cupboard seems more bare, and I still haven't figured out to choose a complementary set of 6SN7 and 300Bs.
   
  I can go higher pricewise if needed, but I'm probably putting most of my tube budget towards Psvane or Treasure 300Bs.


----------



## dminches

There are bunch of 6SN7 quads on Audiogon there are pretty nice tubes including sylvanias, ratheyons and baldwins (sylvanias).


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





elysian said:


> From some of the posts earlier in this thread, as well as various impressions on the Treasures on other forums.
> 
> Aside from the Grant Fidelity testimonials, yours is one of the few comments I've seen that say the Treasures are both cleaner and more extended. * One of the main complaints I've read about the Treasures is that they don't reproduce certain frequencies that well.*  At least from what others have said the Treasures seem good if there are particular imbalances in the system.  The Tung Sols seem to be well-favored, but I'd prefer new production over NOS.
> 
> I'll probably need to pick up a quad of 6SN7s soon, so I'm looking for something with a good price-performance ratio (with good soundstaging, bass, and transparency), and is reliable.


 

 One of their issues is that they can do this too well for some...and sound too clean and in turn to some clinical. They are better at extended frequencies over my NOS Sylvania 6SN7s, RCA VT-231 Smoked Glass and are very close to my Sylvania 5692 brown base driver tubes (but in the end the 5692s are my favourite driver tubes with my WA22).


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





todd r said:


> *Treasures are definitely overpriced.*
> So far my preference has been NOS Sylvania tubes, but I don't know where you find them priced cheaper than an EH (Let me know your secret, I won't tell).
> I also like the RCA Grey glass if you need a little darker sound.


 
   
  Agreed 100%.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





dminches said:


> There are bunch of 6SN7 quads on Audiogon there are pretty nice tubes including sylvanias, ratheyons and baldwins (sylvanias).


 


  Yup, and there are regularly quads of Sylvanias on Audiogon for less than new EH quads cost.


----------



## MacedonianHero

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yup, and there are regularly quads of Sylvanias on Audiogon for less than new EH quads cost.


 

 And they sound quite a bit better too.


----------



## Elysian

I appreciate the Audiogon heads-up.  I've only checked for Treasures and Sophia Electrics on Audiogon, and didn't really think to check for less fancypants tubes


----------



## recdiy

I saw the "_6H8C - Russian designation for a 6SN7 with a higher plate voltage. _* [PHOTO HERE]"  link is dead, I made some pictures with my 6H8C including the box and the datashet*
*http://www.apcc.tk/photo-gallery/category/8-6sn7-tube*


----------



## Dr Frankestein

My thoughts on various 6SN7's.
   
  I am new to this forums but I have been following it for some time and have really enjoyed this thread and learned a lot from it. In my Supratek Chardonnay preamplifier I have used the following 6SN7's.
   
  EH and TS new issue: I am convinced these are the same tube. They are very satisfying, not bad in my opinion, better than what I expected. Instruments have body and bass is strong. Highs are a little coarse.
   
  RCA GTB clear glass from the 50's. Very musical and smooth. Bass is not that strong. Not that 3D sounding. Perspective behind the speakers. Not too extended in the high frequencies.
   
  RCA grey glass 40's or 50's I do not recall. Basically the same sound as above but one can say these are silky smooth. They are also laid back and have stronger bass and more air than the GTB above. Highly recommended.
   
  Sylvania black base 5692. Now, one does not really see much about these in the internet pages. They do exist. The Sylvania 5692 always mentioned is the brown base. These are the short bottle, 5 posts triple mica tubes, real 5692's. Obtained from a local electronics store raid by a friend. The sound is lightning fast, with a very clear presentation which could be described as cold or clinical, I do not detect the warmth alluded to the RCA red bases. They are not too dimensional. They are also laid back.
   
  And last Raytheon GTB. These are from the 50's. Clear glass, side getter, short bottle, etc. These are very very smooth with a very 3D and palpable presentation. Have much more air than all the above. Bass seems kind of disorganized so far. Got these yesterday so I have to wait for more hours of playback. I will report back.


----------



## Solude

Subscribed.


----------



## loonytunes1

Dear adhoc, the Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle black base(6sn7 W B 5 stamped on top of tube), better than the Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle metal base(6SN7 A L 4 stamped on the top of tube)? I have a Sony Modwright SCDXA5400ES that i would like to tube roll.


----------



## Solude

Recently got my hands on the new Psvane CV181-T and one thing is certain... its not a relabeled Shug Treasure.  Not even remotely similar.  The one I have is very clean, with great deep bottom end and extended treble without being V like.  Not a cheap tube and I could definitely do without the gold base but so far so good.


----------



## Solude

My Sylvania 6SN7W brown base finally came in and wow, just wow.  The Ken Rad might have been the goto for bass heads but I'm glad mine was smashed and I tried the Syl instead.  Its not neutral, its not terribly clean, but damn it's musical with a great bottom end.


----------



## musicman59

Guys and Ladies,
  I am reducing my rectifier and driver tube collection. Please check out my posts at the accessories for sale forum.
  Thanks.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





musicman59 said:


> Guys and Ladies,
> I am reducing my rectifier and driver tube collection. Please check out my posts at the accessories for sale forum.
> Thanks.


----------



## scottosan

Need help on this. its my favorite and cant identify it. It is labelled Micro Electron. Its a 6SN7GTR. The plates are pretty long and has a square getter.


----------



## Skylab

It's actually a 6SN7GTB (the last letter is a B, not an R). And to me it looks like Raytheon.


----------



## Neogeo333

I think it might be Sylvania.  Could be wrong.  Do you see any teeth on the mica?  Most Raytheon I've seen have those spiky teeth on them.  Also look for the numbers of holes on the plate.


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## LogicAudio

it looks like Raytheon


----------



## maddmaxxdrummer

Hi, need some help.. I just acquired 2 Sylvania 6F8G VT-99

I installed them into woo audio adaptors and then into a Yaqin tube buffer.(SD-CD3)
I noticed that the filament glow in one of the tubes is more then the other. In the middle part. Is this because maybe the black coating in the tube may be not exactly the same.. ?Thus allowing less glow to show...?
Or is there a problem with the filament and should return them to the seller...?

I did get some inference noise, on first power up, on the side of the tube with less glow...
And then a few random loud pops... On the same side. I immediately turned off everything.


Any help from some experts would be great

Regards
Max


----------



## i luvmusic 2

So many to choose from............


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## Bluecatamps

Post all the markings on the tube it will be easier to identify, from what you have there it looks like a Sylvania.


----------



## Khragon

I just bought a pair of Tungsol 6F8G, labeled as Hyvac.
  
 Can anyone confirm for me that this is indeed Tungsol 6F8G round plate?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/151306200737?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
  
 Thanks.


----------



## musicman59

khragon said:


> I just bought a pair of Tungsol 6F8G, labeled as Hyvac.
> 
> Can anyone confirm for me that this is indeed Tungsol 6F8G round plate?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151306200737?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
> ...


 
 Yes, they look like mine.


----------



## Frank I

The ones I am selling are in original boxes labeled us army signal corp and dated 1942 and are brand new.  If interested I have of the round plates and one pair of the  flatplatess I am selling . These are as good as the 6sn7 TS BGP som think better. offering here before Ebay. PM me with any offers


----------



## tonereef

Anyone here familiar with 6SN7 GTB by Marconi Radiotron PP, black base, tubes are stamped "Japan" but presumably sold in Canada. I'm using in a DIY amp for Stax 009s and wondering whether these tubes are limiting the lower mid/bass response. If so, any suggestions to improve the situation? The amp sounds excellent in other respects.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I promised my self no more 6/12SN7's tubes for me but i was tempted by these 2 SYLVANIA  8SN7 GTB for $15 ,2 12SN7  SYLVANIA and PHILCO for $8, 6 12SN7 T-S,GE,CBS Hytron,SYLVANIA and RCA for $29.Is these a good deal? THANKS!


----------



## lojay

What 6sn7s do people recommend for Woo WA5? 
I'm using Tungsol BGRP and Sylvania 6sn7w metal base. I find the metal base airier with a wider representation of the soundstage, but the Tungsol is king when it comes to tonal balance, warmth and bass. The presentation is more immediate and front row. The metal base is too bright with the HD800 and sounds 'artificial'.

Forgot to add that the Tungsol BGRPs are ridiculously microphonic...

Disliked the Kenrads (which had little bass on the WA5 contrary to its reputation).

For something different, do you recommend the CV181 (which Woo suggests fits in the amp), B65 or RCA 5692?


----------



## musicman59

lojay said:


> What 6sn7s do people recommend for Woo WA5?
> I'm using Tungsol BGRP and Sylvania 6sn7w metal base. I find the metal base airier with a wider representation of the soundstage, but the Tungsol is king when it comes to tonal balance, warmth and bass. The presentation is more immediate and front row. The metal base is too bright with the HD800 and sounds 'artificial'.
> 
> Forgot to add that the Tungsol BGRPs are ridiculously microphonic...
> ...


 
  
 I use the TS BGRP 6F8G with adapters. I personally like the better than the TS BGRP 6SN7 version.


----------



## asindc

musicman59 said:


> I use the TS BGRP 6F8G with adapters. I personally like the better than the TS BGRP 6SN7 version.


 
 Do you find the 6F8Gs less microphonic than the 6SN7 version?


----------



## musicman59

asindc said:


> Do you find the 6F8Gs less microphonic than the 6SN7 version?


 
 Yes, I do but it varies from tubes to tubes.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

How do you test a tube for short without a tube tester is this possible?Thanks!


----------



## isquirrel

I have a RCA 6SN7-GT 1940's era, grey glass and a RCA 5692 Red Base 1950's, which would be the better tube?
  
 Using an ALO Studio Six


----------



## hypnos1

solude said:


> Recently got my hands on the new Psvane CV181-T and one thing is certain... its not a relabeled Shug Treasure.  Not even remotely similar.  The one I have is very clean, with great deep bottom end and extended treble without being V like.  Not a cheap tube and I could definitely do without the gold base but so far so good.


 
  
 When I was trying different 6SN7s as power tubes in my Little Dot MKIV SE (with adapters!), I found the T-IIs just as you describe...wonderful clarity; good soundstage; depth _and_ good detail in the bass...AND this all gets better with 30+ hours burn-in. I personally preferred them to even some nice VT231s and a pair of 7N7s. They were only surpassed - as power tubes, anyway - when we discovered the 6AS7Gs, but that's another story...
  
 ps. Having seen (heard!) what the 6SN7 family can do, I managed to persuade a Polish amp maker to prototype a reasonably priced model using these as drivers, with a pair of 6AS7G/6080s (theirs being the Russian 6N13S) as powers. If anyone is interested in knowing more about this project - and any input re the 6SN7 would be MUCH appreciated - I started a thread recently...*"Feliks-Audio...6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype".*...All are welcome!


----------



## TonyNewman

hypnos1 said:


> When I was trying different 6SN7s as power tubes in my Little Dot MKIV SE (with adapters!), I found the T-IIs just as you describe...wonderful clarity; good soundstage; depth _and_ good detail in the bass...AND this all gets better with 30+ hours burn-in. I personally preferred them to even some nice VT231s and a pair of 7N7s. They were only surpassed - as power tubes, anyway - when we discovered the 6AS7Gs, but that's another story...
> 
> ps. Having seen (heard!) what the 6SN7 family can do, I managed to persuade a Polish amp maker to prototype a reasonably priced model using these as drivers, with a pair of 6AS7G/6080s (theirs being the Russian 6N13S) as powers. If anyone is interested in knowing more about this project - and any input re the 6SN7 would be MUCH appreciated - I started a thread recently...*"Feliks-Audio...6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype".*...All are welcome!


 
  
 Well done. Anything that helps put more quality new production tubes out there in the market is a very good thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I am also having some success with the Psvane T11s. They have an epically long burn in (150+ hours), and the globe size can be a problem in the WA6 and WA5 - apart from that the sound is detailed and extended at both ends. Just lacking a little warmth and musicality - but burn in is far from complete for mine. Overall they are VERY good tubes - they beat all the NOS I have heard so far.


----------



## punit

tonynewman said:


> I am also having some success with the Psvane T11s. They have an epically long burn in (150+ hours), and the globe size can be a problem in the WA6 and WA5 - apart from that the sound is detailed and extended at both ends. Just lacking a little warmth and musicality - but burn in is far from complete for mine. Overall they are VERY good tubes - they beat all the NOS I have heard so far.


 
 Hi Tony, you mean the Psvane CV181 ? I am curious about the Psv's.  just so that I can have a point of reference, which NOS 6sn7's are you referring to ?


----------



## TonyNewman

punit said:


> Hi Tony, you mean the Psvane CV181 ? I am curious about the Psv's.  just so that I can have a point of reference, which NOS 6sn7's are you referring to ?


 
  
 I have tried a bunch of NOS 6SN7s. Best I have heard so far have been a pair of 50s Sylvania 6SN7GTA. These tubes have warmth and musicality, but in every other area the Psvane T2s kill them, even without full burn in. Bass and treble extension, detail, clarity, speed - all much superior in the T2s. The Sylvania's sound cloudy and constricted in comparison (but have nice warmth). The T2s are also very well balanced - they give an even and accurate presentation of the music - 'transparent' might be the right word.
  
 These are the grey bottle 6SN7s labelled as CV-181s from Psvane, but they aren't - they are 6SN7s. Some bizarre marketing tactic that just confuses folks.
  
 My plan is to match the T2s with warm rectifiers + 300Bs in my WA5. I think that will work well.
  
 I have been so impressed with the Psvane T2s that I have taken the plunge and ordered some of their 1:1 replica tubes in 300B and 274B. I don't expect these tubes to replicate the legendary vintage WE sound 100%, but I am hoping they will be good sounding tubes that give a taste of that mid range magic. Considering the current pricing of vintage WE NOS, that is about as close as I am ever going to get.
  
 I am a little surprised that the new production tubes have had so little attention in reviews and general discussion - there are some gems out there worth checking out.
  
 EDIT - should have added that the T2s and Sylvania were roughly cost equivalent. My primo matched T2s were around $170 USD for the pair, and the Sylvanias were around $150. Not a big cost difference.
  
 EDIT2 - My Mullard GZ32 rectifiers have arrived - these are small enough to allow me to put the Psvane T2s back in my WA6 (removing the EML 274B). Right away, with zero burn in on the GZ32, I am getting a superior sound with the T2s that I was with the Sylvania 6SN7GTAs plus EML 274B. The Mullard GZ32s are great value @ $70, the Sylvania 6SN7GTAs are not. I'd say the same about the EML 274B - not worth the $270ish price tag compared to the $70 GZ32. I think I will cancel my pending order for another EML 274B and purchase 3 (or 4) GZ32s instead.


----------



## hypnos1

tonynewman said:


> Well done. Anything that helps put more quality new production tubes out there in the market is a very good thing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, TN...much appreciated.
  
 Wow - 150+ hrs? So I wasn't even getting their full potential...This bodes well for my using them in the Feliks-Audio amp (when the prototype is finished - _hopefully_ 2 to 3 weeks off now)...glad I didn't move them on after all!
  
 Actually, I did find the PsVanes could sound a little on the light side with certain pieces of music...or, rather, certain _recordings_ of same - not all recording engineers are equal! And despite bordering on heresy(!), this was remedied by mixing with a 7N7...used as power tubes, remember...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.(But , of course, it all depends on the rest of the set-up...these powers were driven by a pair of (wonderful) C3GSs - that I had to make adapters for - which I'm sure helped no end).
  
 On the subject of NOS 6SN7s, member gibosi did find that the Sylvania 6SN7W was an excellent tube...but they look very pricey now...


----------



## TonyNewman

hypnos1 said:


> On the subject of NOS 6SN7s, member gibosi did find that the Sylvania 6SN7W was an excellent tube...but they look very pricey now...


 
  
 The top tier 6SN7s are now hard to find and expensive. Try getting a matched pair of NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7GT round plates for under $300. The lesser 6SN7s (like the Sylvania 6SN7GTAs I have tried) were poor value for money to my ears. The T2s provide everything I am looking for except for the warmth - and I can fix that with careful pairing of rectifier/power tubes.
  
 My WA6 now has the T2s in it with a GZ32 - and it has never sounded better. Total tube cost is less than an EML 274B.
  
 The 150 hours is a minimum with the treasure series (Shuguang or Psvane). Some folks say 300 hours to fully mature. Mine are at around 100 hours and still improving. Similar deal with the Sophia 6SN7s - took over 100 hours for the harshness to fade with mine.


----------



## punit

tonynewman said:


> The 150 hours is a minimum with the treasure series (Shuguang or Psvane). Some folks say 300 hours to fully mature. Mine are at around 100 hours and still improving. Similar deal with the Sophia 6SN7s - took over 100 hours for the harshness to fade with mine.


 

 How do you find the Psv vs the Sophia 6SN7 ?


----------



## TonyNewman

punit said:


> How do you find the Psv vs the Sophia 6SN7 ?


 
  
 I don't want to say too much on that until I have completed burn in with both sets and given them both a thorough testing in my WA5 with a range of rectifier and power tubes. I am weeks away from that point, given the long burn in times with many tubes. A lot of fun playing with these things, but it takes a long time to rack up 300 hours on a tube amp, even when using a WA6 to help with the burn in.
  
 I will say that I have been impressed with both so far, the T2s in particular. After 100 hours these tubes really start to deliver. How far they can go I don't know yet.
  
 I am most excited about having some Psvane 1:1 WE replicas on the way (300B and 274B). These are the top line Psvane rectifier and power tubes and I am expecting great things from them. There is almost nothing out there that I can find for review material on these tubes - so it is a bit of a gamble.


----------



## hypnos1

hypnos1 said:


> When I was trying different 6SN7s as power tubes in my Little Dot MKIV SE (with adapters!), I found the T-IIs just as you describe...wonderful clarity; good soundstage; depth _and_ good detail in the bass...AND this all gets better with 30+ hours burn-in. I personally preferred them to even some nice VT231s and a pair of 7N7s. They were only surpassed - as power tubes, anyway - when we discovered the 6AS7Gs, but that's another story...
> 
> ps. Having seen (heard!) what the 6SN7 family can do, I managed to persuade a Polish amp maker to prototype a reasonably priced model using these as drivers, with a pair of 6AS7G/6080s (theirs being the Russian 6N13S) as powers. If anyone is interested in knowing more about this project - and any input re the 6SN7 would be MUCH appreciated - I started a thread recently...*"Feliks-Audio...6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype".*...All are welcome!


 
  
 Here's confirming the Feliks-Audio guys are definitely going ahead with the use of 2x 6SN7s as opposed to just 1...after testing, they found low-impedance 'phones benefited from using 2 (there had been queries from members on this subject). And I personally am _really_ glad - my HD650s will surely also say "thank you" and the amp will look SO much better as an added bonus!
  
 Hopefully shouldn't be _too_ long now to blast-off!


----------



## isquirrel

Hi guys, I have recommended to thread and hope you can help.
  
 I have the an ALO Studio Six which uses a 6SN7 2 x 6V6's 2 x 0B2's and a 5AR4
  
 I am experimenting with tube rolling the 6SN7 spot, single tube.
  
 I have the following 6SN7 varieties and have put my comments on sonics next to the tube description
  
 RCA 6SN7 GT 1940's Grey Glass - smooth wide soundstage, rich harmonics
  
 RCA 5692 Red Base 1950's - rich with plenty of bloom not as high resolution as the above
  
 Tung Sol 6SN7 GT/VT-231 Round Plates - Black Glass - Having trouble, I heard these need plenty of hours but it is not what I expected, given their reputation, a little sibilant and can be a little harsh, bass is not great
  
 RCA 6SN7GT - 1940's Grey Glass - smooth wide soundstage, great resolution
  
 Ken Rad 6SN7GT/VT-231 JAN-CKR Black Glass - the best of the lot, clean not gritty as I had been told, best bass
  
  
 Are my findings in line with your experiences or do I need to try some of these again and allow more burn in time?
  
 Beginning to doubt myself....


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## punit

I have the Woo WA22 & Glenn's OTL (plus had WA 6 , Btlhd Crack, DV 336SE). My experience in rolling 6SN7's has been that although generally a particular type will have some general characteristics, the other tubes also influence the sound. For example with a particular Rectifier , Power combination the TS BGRP 6SN7 produces one of the best sound - so dynamic, Great extension on both ends, amazing clarity. But with a different rec / power tube it sounds shrill, tone is bad. Similarly for Ken Rad, it generally has good bass but some times has weak bass depending on the combination.
  
 I have no experience with ALO Studio Six, but maybe the same "synergy between tube combinations"  holds true for it & maybe the other tubes that you have do not mate well with the TS BGRP.


----------



## punit

Are the RCA 5692 red base similar sounding to the CBS Hytron 5692 ? They seem to have similar structures. I have the RCA 5692 & was wondering if it was worth getting the CBS Hytron ? Can anyone who has heard both please comment ?


----------



## Skylab

Punit I have always liked the CBS/Hytron 5692 better than the RCA. It's very worth getting. 

I squirrel, you must have a bad or near end of life TS VT-231. Your other tube comments sound pretty consistent with what most people hear, but not with the TS, especially the sibilant and harsh part. I've never found this, myself. It DOES have less bass weight than the RCA or KenRad tubes, though.


----------



## isquirrel

skylab said:


> Punit I have always liked the CBS/Hytron 5692 better than the RCA. It's very worth getting.
> 
> I squirrel, you must have a bad or near end of life TS VT-231. Your other tube comments sound pretty consistent with what most people hear, but not with the TS, especially the sibilant and harsh part. I've never found this, myself. It DOES have less bass weight than the RCA or KenRad tubes, though.


 

 I read over at Tube maze that someone had similar issues with the TS RP, it was recommended that it be put on extended burn in as per the following comment
  
'The TS RP often need some extended usage to “wake up” the cathode and strip off the oxidized layer of barium on the cathode to get down to the strongly emitting layers of cathode emulsion. Before an extended “burn in” or “wake up” period, the roundplate 6SN7s are a little bit sluggish-sounding, and sound a little bit muddled/muddy, and in particular do not have good treble extrension or “air” in the high frequencies. But.. oh, WOW, when these legendary roundplate TungSol 6SN7s DO wake up after some burn in time… they will absolutely blow you away.'
  
Accordingly I did so and the sound improved markedly.
  
 I then did a marathon 6SN7 tube comparison last night which yielded the following results:
  
*Studio Six*
  
 Test of 6SN7’s Valves - 21/09/14
  
*Tube 1 - RCA Red Base 5692 1950’s*
  
 Valve is quiet, nice colouring, 1st up noticed sounds thicker, maybe more texture
 vocals are smooth, texture, maybe more centred image, nice rhythm, feels smoky with everything being intimate.
  
 T4 = starts very delicate, music coming from a black background, no noise, no sibilance, snare drum sounds tight, good layering of the instruments, at end of track good cymbals decay
  
 T5 = guitar image in far right, vocal is dead centre, aware of a nice drum kick around 2.00 great emotion and no brightness at all! very relaxing to listen to, great sound
  
 I feel as though i can hear everything in its right place, nothing is too emphasised.
  
 T6 aware the shaker at 1.00 can hear detail in bass guitar, no sibilance or brightness
  
 T5 no sibilance or brightness, good rendition of space
  
 Overall sound is warm, thick and lush with plenty of unforced detail, maybe not the last word in resolution
  
*Tube 2 - RCA 6SN7-GT 1940’s half grey glass*
  
 T4 tonal balance is brighter, seems very clear, no sibilance, not as much colour, doesn’t sound as thick or textural
  
 T5 wide soundstage, impression is its clearer or just lighter, not as much bloom drum kick not as well pronounced
  
 T6 sounds thinner I think, shaker is there but not quite as textural, music is not as layered
  
*Tube 3 - RCA 6SN7-GT Grey Glass 1940’s *
  
 T3 better than valve 2 little more texture, better depth to soundstage not as thin, bass guitar line is easier to follow.
  
 T4 warmer, better separation, quiet, snare drums are not pronounced not quite as as thick or full bodied as V1
  
 T5 more texture, val is clear with emotion, not as warm, no sibilance, 1.51 little bit shouts , good emotion, orchestra in background not a layered as in V1 but netter than V2
  
*Tube 4 - Ken Rad Staggered Plates 6SN7GT/ VT-231 JAN CKR*
  
 T3 a little grudge not a smooth or liquid as V1 or V3, bit shimmery on cymbals, could be a touch dirty, not smooth or liquid, bit shrill 
  
 T4 vocal a little coarse, soundstage is shallow, instruments sound a bit plain and thin, boring 
  
 T5 attention wandered, vocals seems to be covered in a sheen, missing rich texture of V1 or V3
  
*Tube 5 - Tung Sol Round Plates Black Glass 6SN7GT/VT-231*
  
 T3 clarity and delicacy, goals are more alive, best so far nice layering, i cancer everything that is going on, heard reverb for the 1st time at end of track
  
 T4 nice reverb, vocals are crystal clear, none of the grunge apparent in V4
  
 T5 guitar very nice harmonics, not trying to stand out, instruments behind layered well, very clear and clean sound. Great emotion mid track. Best of all worlds here, everything just sounds right!
  
 Conclusion: *Tube 5 - Tung Sol Round Plates Black Glass* is the winner followed by *Tube 1 - RCA Red Base*


----------



## grmnasasin0227

tonynewman said:


> I have been so impressed with the Psvane T2s that I have taken the plunge and ordered some of their 1:1 replica tubes in 300B and 274B. I don't expect these tubes to replicate the legendary vintage WE sound 100%, but I am hoping they will be good sounding tubes that give a taste of that mid range magic. Considering the current pricing of vintage WE NOS, that is about as close as I am ever going to get.
> 
> *I am a little surprised that the new production tubes have had so little attention in reviews and general discussion - there are some gems out there worth checking out.*


 
 I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience members of this forum completely eschew current production, and as decent NOS sources dry up and prices rise...what then? Offerings from Shuguang and Sophia are a step in the right direction, and they're great tubes, to boot!


----------



## TonyNewman

grmnasasin0227 said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience members of this forum completely eschew current production, and as decent NOS sources dry up and prices rise...what then? Offerings from Shuguang and Sophia are a step in the right direction, and they're great tubes, to boot!


 
  
 To put it bluntly, this fantastic hobby of ours has no future without new production tubes. NOS, by definition, will become increasingly scarce and expensive as the limited stocks are exhausted.
  
 I plugged in my Psvane replica WE300Bs into the WA5 last night. Keep in mind these comments are after about 4 hours of use - so the break in has barely started. Right out of the box I noticed these tubes are delivering something that the SERPs didn't after 200 hours - some mid-range magic. I have never heard a vintage WE300B or the recent production WE300B - so I have no way to compare - but _something _is definitely happening with the replica WE300Bs.
  
 Detail and extension aren't happening yet - the SERPs kill in those areas - but, as I was hoping, the mid range magic is present in some degree right out of the box.
  
 I'll give a more in depth comparison once I have 300 hours on the SERPs and the replica 300Bs (i.e. in about 2 months).


----------



## isquirrel

Just posted an add for my various 6SN7's
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/737133/various-6sn7-valves


----------



## Lorspeaker

inexpensive 6N8S.... good extention on the top..spacious sounding...on my DV336se


----------



## el donkey

hard to photo in situ but I have put a pair of these Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT VT231 in my power amp in place of electrons from China. With no burn in they have better midrange. I assume these are the T plates not flat plates?


----------



## BlakeT

I am really liking my NOS Sylvania 6BX7 GT as a substitute for my 6SN7's.  I prefer them to my usual 6SN7 Sylvania Bad Boys.


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> inexpensive 6N8S.... good extention on the top..spacious sounding...on my DV336se


 
 Yes nice using as power tubes in LD


----------



## Oskari

el donkey said:


> I assume these are the T plates not flat plates?


 
  
 Yep.


----------



## Poladise

Does anyone know when these may have been made? I cant find any pictures of other Kenrads with the same print layout.
 They're more clear sounding than the stock tubes they replaced in my LD VI+, but they're quite dry and and a little grainy in upper mids. Was hoping the Kenrad VT231's would have a bit of bloom and be more euphonic than the cheap stock tubes.


----------



## bbmiller

The first posting of this thread I am assuming was when it was started "5/14/05 THREAD STARTER" is that 2005 I am not sure how you decode dates in that format? If it is in that first posting they talked about new stock Electro-Harmonix EH6SN7 does what was said back then still holds sway in accordance to the latest thinking in November 2004. I will post what is said below, but before I do I have another question. The only data sheet I can find Electro-Harmonix EH6SN7 is in Russian and I am thinking it is saying it has a heater current of 600 mA., But I am not sure so could you look at the link which is here and tell me?
  
 One more thing before I repost are these electro-Harmonix tubes still being made in this year and month of November 2014. Perhaps you don't know either, it seems it takes some more clever searching then I am certainly able to do to find this out.


> > *NEW STOCK – Electro-Harmonix EH6SN7** [PHOTO HERE]*
> > _[black plates, black base, black labels on glass, top getter]_
> > ● “The Electro Harmonix were the most dynamic in the MPX3 . The Bass is also the best and biggest of the three; quite detailed and tight. Midrange is also full of detail air and transparency up and down the range. Gets a little too bright in my system at times, but generally the most fun and involving tubes to listen to so far for me.” –bobjew
> > ● “With the Electro Harmonix 6SN7's in current production, there is no need to suffer.” –Hirsch
> > ...


----------



## dBel84

I am not clear on exactly what it is that you were looking for but Tube Depot has them in stock . For data sheets on most tubes I use Duncanamps as they link to many different resources. .dB


----------



## bbmiller

dbel84 said:


> I am not clear on exactly what it is that you were looking for but Tube Depot has them in stock . For data sheets on most tubes I use Duncanamps as they link to many different resources. .dB


 

  
 OK originally what I was looking for is these tubes still as highly thought of as when original postings were made. I was sure that at the time of those original postings the people were sincere in their beliefs but I was wondering if the ensuing years if these tubes have gone down pecking order hierarchy because thinking has evolved?

 My research to seems to indicate that as you say tubedepot are still selling these and still talking about them like they are still made. I thought perhaps given the age of that original posting they may not still be made.

 Well seeing what you can see in that buying option box in the screen capture picture I posted above I now have a new question. Would checking all those options, which if add up correctly would take you to $10 more to be very worthwhile. It seems that my little dot IV MK SE does not require match tubes since the driver tubes are not in push-pull cross the tube driver tubes, but are in push-pull across the two triode sections in a double triode. Well that would mean you could take care of any inconsistencies in gain by adjustment of your media player, but if I were to check all the others options I would probably check that one to since it would be only two dollars. Well have you or anybody here paid for hand-picked tube selection with good results.

 The talk of the promo on the tubedepot site exit sound like new production tubes may be even better than NOS tubes due to not being made by hand and hence more consistent. What have been the experiences of people on this thread new manufactured tubes as compared with NOS?


----------



## Skylab

Personally I don't like the EH 6SN7 at ALL. I much, much prefer even a run of the mill 60's-70's Sylvania 6SN7GTB.


----------



## bbmiller

skylab said:


> Personally I don't like the EH 6SN7 at ALL. I much, much prefer even a run of the mill 60's-70's Sylvania 6SN7GTB.


 
 How much do you think your preferred run of the mill 60's-70's Sylvania 6SN7GTB could varying one from the other. Were you able to get hand-picked (via tube tester) choices of this tube would that be much preferable all make little difference?


----------



## Skylab

No, I don't think there is more variation between NOS tubes than current production tubes. Maybe less. Tube production was much more robust in the tube heyday era than it is today.


----------



## Stereolab42

Avoid tubedepot. They've sold me unmatched matched pairs, and noisy low-noise tubes.


----------



## bbmiller

stereolab42 said:


> Avoid tubedepot. They've sold me unmatched matched pairs, and noisy low-noise tubes.


 
 Do you think there is such a thing as that handpicking tube seller we should like? I mean handpicking via tube testing.


----------



## Stereolab42

bbmiller said:


> Do you think there is such a thing as that handpicking tube seller we should like? I mean handpicking via tube testing.


 
  
 Stick to eBay. I'm serious -- as a buyer you hold all the power. Find sellers with golden feedback and plausible testing results, and get your own tester also. Buy once, then if the goods check out, mark that seller as a favorite.


----------



## punit

skylab said:


> Personally I don't like the EH 6SN7 at ALL. I much, much prefer even a run of the mill 60's-70's Sylvania 6SN7GTB.


 

  On my Liquid Glass, the EH 6SN7 is an amazing match with LCD XC & X but sounds Bad / not so great with HD 800, T1, TH 900. Its has an aggressive sound which suits the Audeze's I guess.


----------



## bbmiller

> dbel84 said:
> 
> 
> > I am not clear on exactly what it is that you were looking for but Tube Depot has them in stock . For data sheets on most tubes I use Duncanamps as they link to many different resources. .dB


 
 OK data sheet from duncanamps because they link to many resources really does seem great, but looking at the screenshot below could any of you all give me a source to decode the abbreviations they are using. I mean under the 6SN7-GT rating designation they have the abbreviations VH, IH, CGK, CGA and on the  6SN7-GT application data designation they have class, VA, VG1, IA, RA, S abbreviations and I am having trouble finding out where duncanamps or anybody else decodes these abbreviations for you so could somebody here tell where to find the decoding of those abbreviations or decode them for me here.


----------



## Skylab

Are you planning to design your own amps? If not, I don't know what you want that info for. 

Anyway:

Vh is heater voltage
Va is plate voltage
Ia is plate current
Ra is plate resistance
S is transconductance, which is the one useful number for laymen, albeit laymen with a mutual transconductance tube tester, or perhaps those who trust the transconductance numbers in eBay auctions


----------



## bbmiller

skylab said:


> Personally I don't like the EH 6SN7 at ALL. I much, much prefer even a run of the mill 60's-70's Sylvania 6SN7GTB.


 
  


skylab said:


> Are you planning to design your own amps? If not, I don't know what you want that info for.
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> ...


 
 Well you didn't say it, but from what you decoded for me already I am thinking IH much mean heater current which is appointed to me for if I am to use my little dot amplifier with my octal power tube adapters and not exceed the heater current limitations I will have to limit the power tubes I roll to one amp or supply current externally which is complicated.
  
 In the above quote you stated "even a run of the mill 60's-70's Sylvania 6SN7GTB" was better than the EH 6SN7. Well if it's even an run-of-the-mill I was thinking of asking you, since you talk so much on these forms and consequently may know a lot, about what cound be better than went be run-of-the-mill and even in a 6SN7 family tube what wound be better . But after learning more from those indeed very good duncanamps datasheets I began to think maybe that question was too small. What I mean I saw that another family of tubes 6AS7 had the same pen out, but knew from other talk on these head FI forums that that family could exceed my one amp limitations for power tube rolling.
  
 Which brought me to questions on how the tube numbering system works. The EH 6SN7 family and the  6AS7 family differ by the the S and N in the third digit. Internet searches are vacuum tube numbering systems get kind of fuzzy once you get to the third digit. But perhaps you and others would say learning that numbering system is not the way to go when looking for reviews for the same octal penout both the  6SN7 family and 6AS7 family share. Can anybody here give me a comprehensive list of all octal families with these pinout which have a enough heater current to be good power tubes, but not so much that they exceed one amp heater current is it just the 6SN7 family that fulfills this requirement or is there any other I could consider.
  
 Well Skylab I'm going to ask it in your opinion what is the best octal tube power to used with both half in push-pull with the pen out  6SN7 has and not exceeding one amp heater current? And if those are quite expensive what is the best reason me price ones that meet these requirements.


----------



## Skylab

My opinion is: If the amp is designed to use a 6SN7, then one should use a 6SN7


----------



## Stereolab42

bbmiller, you're getting ahead of yourself here. If you're rolling tubes into an amp you didn't build yourself, you cannot deduce on your own what may and may not work using datasheets. The only authority on the matter is the amp's manufacturer, or others who were brave enough to try the tubes on their own... surely there is a Little Dot forum here with owners that could provide more advice...? I would strongly suggest just sticking with 6SN7s, there are so many of those you could roll for several lifetimes and not get bored.


----------



## isquirrel

Just took a risk and ordered these off eBay, never seen any other 6SN7's like them.
  
 http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&view=all&item=281382057788&tid=1303169565018&ssPageName=ADME:X:UPICB:AU:1123
  
 Anyone ever seen anything like these before ?


----------



## Badas

isquirrel said:


> Just took a risk and ordered these off eBay, never seen any other 6SN7's like them.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&view=all&item=281382057788&tid=1303169565018&ssPageName=ADME:X:UPICB:AU:1123
> 
> Anyone ever seen anything like these before ?




Link doesn't show anything. Is it the Brimar black bottles you talked about? I have seen before but never heard. It should be interesting.


----------



## isquirrel

badas said:


> Link doesn't show anything. Is it the Brimar black bottles you talked about? I have seen before but never heard. It should be interesting.


 

 Whoops sorry this should work 
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281382057788?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## Badas

isquirrel said:


> Whoops sorry this should work
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281382057788?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649




Damn. Those are very different. Never seen anything like them.

If they sound fantastic please don't tell us.  We won't be able to get them anyway.


----------



## Neogeo333

I hope you dont hate me.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/361150885193


----------



## Badas

^

What the heck are these things. They look super cool. I hope they sound nice guys.


----------



## Neogeo333

its alright nothing to spectacular like an ECC32 or TS round mica.  They supposely last 10k hours.  Germany answer to the 5962?


----------



## Angelbelow

Anyone have thoughts on the following tubes?
  
 6SN7GT USSR Military
  
 6SN7WGT Philips ECG


----------



## Skylab

The Philips ECG 6SN7WGT is late production Sylvania. Nice tubes.


----------



## Angelbelow

skylab said:


> The Philips ECG 6SN7WGT is late production Sylvania. Nice tubes.


 
  
 Awesome, thanks.


----------



## Renderman

The link to the 6SN7 VT-231 5692 Tube Audio Performance – Chimera Labs article is no longer current however, the article is still available at: http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/6sn7_vt.htm May I suggest substituting this in the opening post? This is a very interesting read, I recommend it!


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for posting, I was just looking for the old page.


----------



## ericr

renderman said:


> The link to the 6SN7 VT-231 5692 Tube Audio Performance – Chimera Labs article is no longer current however, the article is still available at: http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/6sn7_vt.htm May I suggest substituting this in the opening post? This is a very interesting read, I recommend it!




A sort of interesting read. It seems odd though how so many different tubes are just lumped together by manufacturer and given the same sonic description, such as "6SN7GT, 6SN7WGT, 6SN7GTA, 6SN7WGTA 6SN7GTB". 

Too broad of a brush IMHO.


----------



## richard51

Anybody here  has information about the 7193 /2c22 tubes family versus 6sn7gt family ? i have read some few but very clear statements about the superiority of the 7193 family.... in the past i had experience truly superior sound in upgrading to the 6 sn7 family from 12au7 for example (bugle boy and amperex )....Now i am curious about 7193 tubes.... Perhaps difficult to buy but cheap tubes..., i waited for 19 national unions tubes now .... the adapter is "en route" .... for one 6ns7 its necessary to put 2 tubes 7193 in the adapter.....high frequency tubes in world war II used in tanks communication....i will report my impression .
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 some observation and opinions i collected on the web about the 7193 :
  
 The ultimate 6SN7 for me wasn't a 6SN7 at all. I replaced the 6SN7s in my Supratek Chenin preamp with CCS loaded 2C22 single triodes, biased to 3.4V using (4) Cree SiC Schottky Diodes on the cathode. To say they were MUCH MUCH better is an understatement. The 2C22 is roughly equivalent to 1/2 of a 6SN7, but the anode and grid are taken out via top caps.
 Bass is clearer and more defined, mids are to die for, treble is sparkling without being grating. Using the CCS I am able to replace both sections of the 6SN7 with a single 2C22 and still have plenty of gain.
 What is magic is the 2C22/7193, but that's 6.6k Rp and two top caps. Mind, that's where the magic is if that's what you want and you have a high input impedence on your amp. I thank my lucky stars i came across that tube.
  
  
 I converted my 6SN7 preamp to 2C22 and there's no going back - better high, lows, spatial rendition, tone, etc. I run them at 14.6mA, 175V, CCS on plate, Cree SiC Shottky diodes for bias,  
  
  
 I couldn't believe my ears when I heard the 2C22 a few years ago - it made all 6SN7s sound boring.
  
 I know the 2C22 stage sounds excellent - almost DHT.


----------



## qwersddssdds

The myth of Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 (Bad Boy) is sorely built by this guy: Robert H.
  
 I bought and tried a pair of well functional ones for about $70. I can confirm to you they worth at best $10 for the sound.
  
 The bass is lacking, the sound is squeezed and the treble is harsh and grainy that it is really fatiguing. If someone really wants it, I can send to you for $10 to test (shipping excluded), maybe it shines on you system? Hope.
 IMO, They are not even close to Sylvania 6SN7WGTA in any way.
  
 My lesson, be really careful in the vintage tube industry which is very watered and full of scam.


----------



## KoperViking

Hi qwers... and "Heads".
  
  
 The Sylvania -52 "Bad Boys" already shines on my Wyetech Labs Opal No.040 pre here in Norway 
  
 But I need spares and will gladly buy from you -If you still have them. Do you? 
  
  
 General info:
 The "Bad Boys" Sylvania 6SN7-GT was made from late 1951, week 39 ("1/39") to early 1953, week 13 ("3/13").
 They have black T-plates -3 holes, Copper grids, Bottom getter, "polished" rectangular mica, green labels on black base.
  
 I've seen many "Bad Boys" on eBay that's really not the ones:
 6SN7GT; 2 hole T-plates, sometimes "VT-231". Also 3 hole versions of "cromes" or flat plates. Even WGTA's..
 Some of these are good, other less good but NONE of them are "Bad Boys" 
  
 Otherwise, have a nice day!


----------



## qwersddssdds

Hi Koper,
 Very Thanks for your interest.
  
 I still have them. You can check in the link below. I can give you more clear pictures if you need.
 https://2.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2007.1000338.6.4.cP8WUm&id=522705090906
  
 The right one with date code 231 is not working very well but still functional normally, but I may not recommend you buying that. I am currently using Ken-rad VT231 which IMO is more catering to my preference.
  
 Anyway, I can give you each for $5. But you have to deal with shipping fees, which may be very high.  
  
 You too


----------



## isquirrel

koperviking said:


> Hi qwers... and "Heads".
> 
> 
> The Sylvania -52 "Bad Boys" already shines on my Wyetech Labs Opal No.040 pre here in Norway
> ...


 

 I have a new pair, immaculate condition and only taken out fr testing, if you PM me I will send you photos and details, also have 2 x pairs of NOS Syl Metal bases


----------



## Thenewguy007

Can someone upload the pictures for the Kenrad VT-231with staggered plates?
 The pics in the first post are broken.
 I'd like to know what they look like & get the right ones & not the inferior GE produced ones.


----------



## reggieplaysbass

Amazing thread!


----------



## KoperViking

-Yes! Excellent


----------



## Len

One of the rarest 6SN7 variants is now on ebay in NIB condition: the 33S30B
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-NOS-NIB-33S30B-5692-6SN7GT-ECC33-Standard-Radio-/252379523567?
  
 It'll be fun to see how crazy expensive this pair fetches.


----------



## Len

qwersddssdds said:


> The myth of Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 (Bad Boy) is sorely built by this guy: Robert H.
> 
> I bought and tried a pair of well functional ones for about $70. I can confirm to you they worth at best $10 for the sound.
> 
> ...


 
 You may have gotten a tired pair because I can confirm (having listened to hundreds of true Bad Boys vs VT-231) that the Bad Boy bass is FAR superior.  And neither the VT-231 nor the Bad Boys should have harsh, grainy, fatiguing treble.  They're actually known for outstanding treble, which is my experience as well.
  
 The construction between the two Sylvanias are very different.  I've even take photos of an exposed Bad Boy vs a VT-231 that shows VERY significant differences in design:
 http://reefscapes.net/temp/headfi/52v6sn7gt.jpg
  
 Yes, Robert Hutton was a questionable dude (we spoke at length in private, and he's even scammed me of a thousand dollars worth of tubes).  But that doesn't mean everything he said was false.


----------



## dosley01

len said:


> One of the rarest 6SN7 variants is now on ebay in NIB condition: the 33S30B
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-NOS-NIB-33S30B-5692-6SN7GT-ECC33-Standard-Radio-/252379523567?
> 
> It'll be fun to see how crazy expensive this pair fetches.


 

  
 Wow!!!


----------



## Len

I was honestly expecting more for a NIB pair like this, but the market is down across the board.


----------



## oshipao

Hi there fellow 6SN7 owners. Got this in the mail today, a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Do anyone know which year these are from by looking at the picture? It also says H6B on the top of both.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Hey Guys, just received a pair NOS Tubes, sold as Sylvania 6SN7GTA/ECC32 Tubes Chrome Domes 1953, but the are labeled Motorola. First is this a Sylvania Tube? They are indeed "chrome dome", just curious. Probably won't be able to listen to them until my move is completed next week. Has anyone ever heard this tube, it's not included in the original post?


----------



## jamato8

wildcatsare1 said:


> Hey Guys, just received a pair NOS Tubes, sold as Sylvania 6SN7GTA/ECC32 Tubes Chrome Domes 1953, but the are labeled Motorola. First is this a Sylvania Tube? They are indeed "chrome dome", just curious. Probably won't be able to listen to them until my move is completed next week. Has anyone ever heard this tube, it's not included in the original post?


 

 Tubes were rebranded all the time and Sylvania supplied, along with RCA, a lot of the tubes to be rebranded. It started back in the 1920's. The ones to watch out for are the real off brand as those were normally rejects they could buy, that tested low or high and then they would buy them and rebrand them.


----------



## ericr

oshipao said:


> Hi there fellow 6SN7 owners. Got this in the mail today, a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Do anyone know which year these are from by looking at the picture? It also says *H6B* on the top of both.




1956


----------



## ericr

wildcatsare1 said:


> Hey Guys, just received a pair NOS Tubes, sold as Sylvania 6SN7GTA/ECC32 Tubes Chrome Domes 1953, but the are labeled Motorola. First is this a Sylvania Tube? They are indeed "chrome dome", just curious. Probably won't be able to listen to them until my move is completed next week. Has anyone ever heard this tube, it's not included in the original post?




With pictures showing all of the lettering on both the glass and the base it's pretty likely the tube can be correctly identified.


----------



## oshipao

ericr said:


> 1956




Thank you ericr,

I appreciate it!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

ericr said:


> With pictures showing all of the lettering on both the glass and the base it's pretty likely the tube can be correctly identified.




They are packed ATM, so next week when I unload at the new house I'll take some pics before installing them in the MicroZOTL 2, thanks!


----------



## nix177

Anyone has a tube tester in Orange County, California? or know someone who does? I sold mine recently and need to test a pair.


----------



## JoeDoe

Sorry to necro a thread fellas, but I'm curious to know if anyone has any experience with the Sylvania Gold Brand 6SN7GT?


----------



## ericr

I have a brown base GB 6SN7 GTxW (x = A or B, I'm traveling and can't check for sure).

It's an excellent tube - on par with the 6SN7W which is my favorite tube in the Project Ember. The only catch is they seem to be susceptible to interference. I was using the GB pretty much full time and took my rig to a local meet (with loads of gear packed together) and it sounded like crap. Swapped the tube and all was well. It was fine at home again. Another HF said they had experienced the same.

At times you can get them at a great price, but if they are much more than $40-50 I would recommend putting the money towards a 6SN7W. 

FWIW I have both the metal base and black base 6SN7 and agree with many the metal base is the best, but just so slightly. IMHO it's not worth the premium price the metal base commands.


----------



## JoeDoe

Thanks for your thoughts! I've got an icon HP8, and a pair of the gold brand's on the way. Will post impressions once they arrive.


----------



## whirlwind

ericr said:


> I have a brown base GB 6SN7 GTxW (x = A or B, I'm traveling and can't check for sure).
> 
> It's an excellent tube - on par with the 6SN7W which is my favorite tube in the Project Ember. The only catch is they seem to be susceptible to interference. I was using the GB pretty much full time and took my rig to a local meet (with loads of gear packed together) and it sounded like crap. Swapped the tube and all was well. It was fine at home again. Another HF said they had experienced the same.
> 
> ...


 
  
 With the tip from a fellow head-fier.....I just picked up a 6SN7W that tested strong  $65 shipped.
  
 I can't wait to hear it in my amp.


----------



## JoeDoe

Still waiting on the Sylvania Golds, but in the meantime I've got a nice pair of strong Ken Rad VT231s and RCA Coin Base 6SN7GTBs come in. 

So far I'm liking the richness of the RCA a little better than the KR. I've yet to pick up on the delicious low end that KR owners rave about... Maybe burn in will change that?


----------



## ericr

whirlwind said:


> With the tip from a fellow head-fier.....I just picked up a 6SN7W that tested strong  $65 shipped.
> 
> I can't wait to hear it in my amp.




Cool!

Let us know how it performs, and how it compares to your other 6SN7.


----------



## Frihed89

Just in case no one has mentioned it, the 6F8G is the electrical equivalent of the 6SN7GT, but needs a pin/cap adapter.  Lovely sounding tube, even older than the 6SN7GT.


----------



## JoeDoe

frihed89 said:


> Just in case no one has mentioned it, the 6F8G is the electrical equivalent of the 6SN7GT, but needs a pin/cap adapter.  Lovely sounding tube, even older than the 6SN7GT.


 
 If I'm not mistaken, the 6F8G is a single triode which means you need two of them to work in place of a single 6SN7 right? For some amps (like my Icon HP8), I don't think that's an option. Just not enough real estate.


----------



## Frihed89

joedoe said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the 6F8G is a single triode which means you need two of them to work in place of a single 6SN7 right? For some amps (like my Icon HP8), I don't think that's an option. Just not enough real estate.


 
 It's a dual triode: http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6f8g.html


----------



## whirlwind

joedoe said:


> frihed89 said:
> 
> 
> > Just in case no one has mentioned it, the 6F8G is the electrical equivalent of the 6SN7GT, but needs a pin/cap adapter.  Lovely sounding tube, even older than the 6SN7GT.
> ...


 
 JoeDoe, you can use one...you just need an adapter....they are great tubes.....especially tung sol and national union.


----------



## JoeDoe

frihed89 said:


> It's a dual triode: http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6f8g.html







whirlwind said:


> JoeDoe, you can use one...you just need an adapter....they are great tubes.....especially tung sol and national union.




I see. I think I was thinking of the 6J5. Looks similar. May have to give the 6F8G a go!


----------



## 432789

anyone know about these?


----------



## gurubhai

^Ya, I have one. Nice tubes, structurally they are identical to early 50's sylvania tubes and sound like them too.


----------



## RoundRound

Hello guys,
 Can You help me identify those? 
 I believe they are *6SN7WGTA *- which are overspeced compared to the normal 6SN7? Would they work in a Schiit Freya? How much do you feel a matched quad would be worth? Is $150 a good deal for those 4?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## r2muchstuff

Lovely looking quad 
  
 I am not sure of value, $150 is not outlandish.
  
 JMTC,
 r2


----------



## RoundRound

r2muchstuff said:


> Lovely looking quad
> 
> I am not sure of value, $150 is not outlandish.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you, can yo uhelp me recognise the exact model/year?
 I think it's *6SN7WGTA*

 Also what is the relation betwene Sylvania and Brimar? What sonic properties can I expect?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## r2muchstuff

Looks like the date code on tube to the left in photo is 66 06, I am not clear about the 06.  This would be 1966, 6th week.  That is all I can add, maybe others with more experience/knowledge will help out.
  
 r2


----------



## Skylab

Personally I like the Sylvania JAN 6SN7WGTA a lot. Very balanced, nice tube. Not superlative in any respect but very good at almost everything. $150 forma NOS quad is quite good.


----------



## abvolt

skylab said:


> Personally I like the Sylvania JAN 6SN7WGTA a lot. Very balanced, nice tube. Not superlative in any respect but very good at almost everything. $150 forma NOS quad is quite good.


 
 I agree I've got 2 sets of those also..


----------



## RoundRound

Thanks guys.
 I'm looking forward to getting my long overdue Schiit Freya and hear them out. 
  
 Those tubes are supposed to be a mnatche dquad (or two pairs), here is the testing data I got from the seller, not sure how to read it...
  
1-A was 6.5/6.7
 1-B was 6.7/ 7.0
 2-A was 7­.5 / 7.5
 2-B was 7.8/8.­0
  
 What do these numbers mean and how matched is matched in tubes? 5%?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## Griff65

Hi my 336 se turned up today, would the 6SN7GT JAN 6SN7WGTA make a suitable first purchase? 

Tia


----------



## atarione

griff65 said:


> Hi my 336 se turned up today, would the 6SN7GT JAN 6SN7WGTA make a suitable first purchase?
> 
> Tia


 
  
 nice... my 336SE came last friday.. I'm also trying to figure out some NOS tube options.  
  
 How are you liking your 335SE w/ the stock tubes?  I have been diggin' mine w/ my DT880's and also using it as a preamp w/ my Sony TA-N77ES amp and JBL L1 speakers...listening to the speakers that way now..


----------



## Skylab

roundround said:


> Thanks guys.
> I'm looking forward to getting my long overdue Schiit Freya and hear them out.
> 
> Those tubes are supposed to be a mnatche dquad (or two pairs), here is the testing data I got from the seller, not sure how to read it...
> ...




Honestly without more data, those numbers mean almost nothing. What tube tester were they taken on? And on that tester, what is the target reading for a 6SN7GTA? Until you know this, the numbers are more or less just numbers. 




griff65 said:


> Hi my 336 se turned up today, would the 6SN7GT JAN 6SN7WGTA make a suitable first purchase?
> 
> Tia




Well they would be a nice first purchase IMO, although there are certainly many options, and some less expensive (and some much more of course).


----------



## Griff65

atarione said:


> nice... my 336SE came last friday.. I'm also trying to figure out some NOS tube options.
> 
> How are you liking your 335SE w/ the stock tubes?  I have been diggin' mine w/ my DT880's and also using it as a preamp w/ my Sony TA-N77ES amp and JBL L1 speakers...listening to the speakers that way now..


 
  
 I'm moving from an original M-stage to the 336 and very happy with the change, also T50rp have replaced my Q40's, so the sound signature is very different.
  
  
 Happy with the stock tubes but already scoring the auction site 
  
 Thanks for the nod Skylab..


----------



## RoundRound

Ok, I'll bite,
  
 Can you guys least a few of the most underrated 6SN7s out there - so an ambitious, but noob audiophile can experiment with NOS tubes on the cheap? (I hope).
  
 Thank you!


----------



## ericr

roundround said:


> Thanks guys.
> I'm looking forward to getting my long overdue Schiit Freya and hear them out.
> 
> Those tubes are supposed to be a mnatche dquad (or two pairs), here is the testing data I got from the seller, not sure how to read it...
> ...




What Skylab said. If you put a brand new 6SN7 in the sellers tester what would it read? If a new tube reads 7.5 then the B set is as strong as new tubes (even though they may have seen some use), and the A set is close to new. However, if a new tube reads 14 then the sellers tubes are effectively used up. A common rule is a tube needs to be replaced when it tests at 60% of a new tube.

Plus, while these pairs each have 2 tubes that are reasonably matched, it doesn't automatically make them a matched quad. A1 has a plate at 6.5 while B2 has a plate at 8.0. I'm not familiar with your amp but that seems to be a bit wider spread than many "matched sets" I've seen for sale. It would probably be best to check with experienced owners of your amp before buying.

Assuming the questions Skylar raises are answered favorably, for 1960s Sylvania 6SN7s (vs 1940 or 50) the price is OK though not any sort of killer deal.


----------



## ericr

roundround said:


> Ok, I'll bite,
> 
> Can you guys least a few of the most underrated 6SN7s out there - so an ambitious, but noob audiophile can experiment with NOS tubes on the cheap? (I hope).
> 
> Thank you!




6SN7 x 4 will not = cheap, unfortunately. 

In my experience the 6SN7 market is pretty well sorted out and for the most part you get what you pay for. Sure, if you watch ebay closely over several months you'll likely snag deals on 2 or 3 singles of different brands, but good luck for closely matched quads. You will likely be buying from a professional seller and paying the going rate.

All that aside:
-Sylvania 6SN7GT with T plates, short bottles and chrome flashing 1/2 to 3/4 the way down (late.1940s thru early 1950s).
-Hytron 6SN7GT T.plates with 2 holes/rivets per plate - a bit light on bass in my amp but otherwise very nice (late 1940s thru 1952ish - my later one is CBS labeled with 3 holes isn't as good sounding).
-The National Union black glass is said to be quite good and can be very reasonably priced (huge price variations on this one for some reason).

Good luck finding quads!

Or, don't mess around and go for the good stuff: Sylvania 6SN7W (black base is the best value, but must have only 2 holes per plate), or the Tung-Sol black round plate (for a warmer/thicker/richer sound).


----------



## RoundRound

ericr said:


> Plus, while these pairs each have 2 tubes that are reasonably matched, it doesn't automatically make them a matched quad. A1 has a plate at 6.5 while B2 has a plate at 8.0. I'm not familiar with your amp but that seems to be a bit wider spread than many "matched sets" I've seen for sale. It would probably be best to check with experienced owners of your amp before buying.
> 
> Assuming the questions Skylar raises are answered favorably, for 1960s Sylvania 6SN7s (vs 1940 or 50) the price is OK though not any sort of killer deal.


 
  
 Thank you,
 I want to use this quad in a Schiit Freya (once they come out!) pre-amp. 
 Here's what Schiit has to say abouty the issue of matched tubes:
  
 _With respect to tubes, yes, you'll want matched tubes at least for the input pair. The input pair does voltage gain, so it's the most critical. The input pair is on the right-hand side of the quad. The output pair is on the left-hand side. It's a follower, so it's less critical. _

 _ _

 _We're also doing some degeneration of the input, so matching will be less critical, but you're still going to want to have reasonable matching._

 _No biasing is necessary, since the input is run off a current source, which sets the operating point of the whole system._
 
Does this help? I think the second pair is less critical?


----------



## ericr

Well, they do know their Schiit!

Based on that info I would be comfortable with the matching of those pairs for the Freya. Just put the closest matched pairs on the right side.

So the matching is OK, but what does a new 6SN7 read on the sellers tester?


----------



## Csericks

Can you help me I'm new to the 6sn7 world. I picked up a few tubes for a 2nd amp that I'll use at work. I suspect these are all rebrands and I'd like to know what I actually have. Can you help? Thanks!


----------



## JohnBal

csericks said:


> Can you help me I'm new to the 6sn7 world. I picked up a few tubes for a 2nd amp that I'll use at work. I suspect these are all rebrands and I'd like to know what I actually have. Can you help? Thanks!
> RCA?
> Sylvania?
> Sylvania?
> ...


 
  
  Those are my best guesses. But don't bet your life, I could be wrong.


----------



## Csericks

Thanks for your input! Any of them worth listening to?


----------



## 432789

???


----------



## RoundRound

Hello People,
  
 I bought a pair of matched Tang Sol VT-231's - please see picture:
  
  

  

  
 I'm trying to figure out the date code, it's a bit blurred but reads SC 66 A - elsewhere its stamped BBB - not sure what this means.
 Any advice would be welcome - thank you!


----------



## hackstu

Does anyone know of a genuine supplier of psvane/shuagang tube/valves on ebay??


----------



## Oskari

roundround said:


> Hello People,
> I'm trying to figure out the date code, it's a bit blurred but reads SC 66 A




I don't think that's a date code. That SC and A is a reference to US Army Signal Corps.


----------



## RoundRound

oskari said:


> I don't think that's a date code. That SC and A is a reference to US Army Signal Corps.


 

 Thanks mate, very helpful.
  
 How can I figure the vintage of these tubes then?
  
 Best,
 Yarden


----------



## Oskari

roundround said:


> How can I figure the vintage of these tubes then?




Since they have the VT-231 number, they should be quite old, roughly WW2 kind of old.

Do you have the boxes? Any additional info there?


----------



## RoundRound

oskari said:


> Since they have the VT-231 number, they should be quite old, roughly WW2 kind of old.
> 
> Do you have the boxes? Any additional info there?


 

 No,
 Sadly no boxes. No worries, when the mythical Freya finally reaches British shores I'll be able to actually hear these tubes.


----------



## Jozurr

roundround said:


> Hello People,
> 
> I bought a pair of matched Tang Sol VT-231's - please see picture:
> 
> ...


 
  
 How much did these cost you? Are they NOS?


----------



## RoundRound

I paid about $160 delivered - I believe they measure like NOS


----------



## whirlwind

roundround said:


> I paid about $160 delivered - I believe they measure like NOS


 
 Nice.
  
 Those are wonderful sounding tubes


----------



## RoundRound

whirlwind said:


> Nice.
> 
> Those are wonderful sounding tubes


 
  
 I hope I didn't overpay...


----------



## Thraex

I suggest to try the new TungSol 6SN7GTB as a driver tube, in my EL34 SET amp it sounds equal or even better than a few NOS I've at hand: Sylvania 6SN7GT VT-231 bottom getter green label, two pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB chrome top yellow label, Philips 6SN7 WGTA JAN green label and a new ElectroHarmonix 6SN7.
 In my setup of course and I don't have a tester to check if the NOS tubes are really new even if they came from reputable sellers, anyway it means it's a very good tube at a great price.
 Burn-in necessary as usual: at first it's a bit compressed, lacks details and bass too slow, then it becomes dynamic, natural and very good in any area.


----------



## Jozurr

roundround said:


> I paid about $160 delivered - I believe they measure like NOS


 
 Great price! Off ebay?


----------



## RoundRound

jozurr said:


> Great price! Off ebay?


 

 Indeed


----------



## mbyrnes

Subscribed


----------



## RoundRound

What about the 7N7 tubes? They are said to be identical electrically to the 6SN7 but with a different pin arrangement. Supposedly a socket adapter will allow using a 7N7 in the Freya. Allegedly they are less popular so there are lots of NOS stock at sane prices...
  
 What are the downsides of using socket adapters? Can they damage the socket? Reduce the sound? Other risks?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## jamato8

roundround said:


> What about the 7N7 tubes? They are said to be identical electrically to the 6SN7 but with a different pin arrangement. Supposedly a socket adapter will allow using a 7N7 in the Freya. Allegedly they are less popular so there are lots of NOS stock at sane prices...
> 
> What are the downsides of using socket adapters? Can they damage the socket? Reduce the sound? Other risks?
> 
> Thank you!


 

 If the adapter is well made there shouldn't be much degradation. I have adapters I have made and a couple I have purchased. 7N7 are equivalent with a loctal base. Sylvania made almost all of them. They are a good tube and I have many but I still go back to the 6SN7 tubes with my preference to the 12SN7 types and the 6SN7W. 
  
 Nation Union (NU) also made some in round plate. They are very good, hard to find and the tube in Sylvania or NU should last a long time but I have not had good luck with them over the years. It doesn't make sense but they tend to go noisy for me. Why I don't know as I have tried them in different circuits and know the electrical operating points. They should be superb so I keep trying them.


----------



## RoundRound

Thank you!


----------



## RoundRound

Hey guys,
 I got a pair of NOS Tang Sols V-231s that the seller said were tested and matched. 
  
 I used them a bit in my Freya, after about 6 hours they developed a noticeable, loud hum - I swapped their locations and it went away only to come back after a few hours...  
  
 Are the tubes faulty? Can I fix it somehow? should I return them they weren't cheap...
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Jozurr

roundround said:


> Hey guys,
> I got a pair of NOS Tang Sols V-231s that the seller said were tested and matched.
> 
> I used them a bit in my Freya, after about 6 hours they developed a noticeable, loud hum - I swapped their locations and it went away only to come back after a few hours...
> ...


 
  
 Run them in for 50-70 hours or so. New tubes need burn in to settle down.


----------



## RoundRound

jozurr said:


> Run them in for 50-70 hours or so. New tubes need burn in to settle down.


 

 Thanks, although theze are tubes from the 50s surely there were burnt in during that time?
 Also what about the 2nd law of Entropy? If they humm now, can it really get better with usage? not worse?


----------



## Jozurr

roundround said:


> Thanks, although theze are tubes from the 50s surely there were burnt in during that time?
> Also what about the 2nd law of Entropy? If they humm now, can it really get better with usage? not worse?




If they are indeed NOS and not just tested as NOS they might not have been burned in. Furthermore, some unused tubes are noisy in the beginning due to carbon settlements, and therefore open up and settle after some burn in. Yes if the tubes are past their healthy life they will get worse, but if you are going to use them or return them, the burn in period won't matter so no harm in allowing them that time to work themselves out.


----------



## RoundRound

jozurr said:


> If they are indeed NOS and not just tested as NOS they might not have been burned in. Furthermore, some unused tubes are noisy in the beginning due to carbon settlements, and therefore open up and settle after some burn in. Yes if the tubes are past their healthy life they will get worse, but if you are going to use them or return them, the burn in period won't matter so no harm in allowing them that time to work themselves out.


 

 Cool thank you, I'll give it a go...
  
 What's the worst that can happen? Do tubes blow up? And if it did would it take out my Freya with it? The room?
  
 May sound stupid but I'm a tube noob here... Thanks!


----------



## Jozurr

roundround said:


> Cool thank you, I'll give it a go...
> 
> What's the worst that can happen? Do tubes blow up? And if it did would it take out my Freya with it? The room?
> 
> May sound stupid but I'm a tube noob here... Thanks!




The worst is they'll die and take nothing with them. Dont puncture the tubes etc or break them. Also, dont keep the headphones plugged in or use it as a preamp to speakers during burn in. Occasionally plug in headphones to check on low volume to not transmit bad sound into them. Best of luck!


----------



## RoundRound

jozurr said:


> The worst is they'll die and take nothing with them. Dont puncture the tubes etc or break them. Also, dont keep the headphones plugged in or use it as a preamp to speakers during burn in. Occasionally plug in headphones to check on low volume to not transmit bad sound into them. Best of luck!


 

 Thank you.
  
 I did some testing and the hum definitely comes from the tubes (goes away when I switch to passive or JFET), it's also not volume dependant - if I pause the music and turn up the volume dial up or down (all the way) it stay at the same level...
  
 I'm a bit concerned because I read online that one shouldn't leave tube amps unattended or working with out being connected to something at the output end (does a turned off power amp count?).


----------



## jamato8

roundround said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I did some testing and the hum definitely comes from the tubes (goes away when I switch to passive or JFET), it's also not volume dependant - if I pause the music and turn up the volume dial up or down (all the way) it stay at the same level...
> 
> I'm a bit concerned because I read online that one shouldn't leave tube amps unattended or working with out being connected to something at the output end (does a turned off power amp count?).


 

 It depends upon the design of the amp. That is more true with some of the older designs. As an example I have a pair of SixPacs, which are mono amplifiers for speakers and they are fine with no load. Are you referring to a preamp or headphone amp or what? I haven't run into either that needed a load. I think in general though because of the working voltages the it is often best when leaving the house, to turn off tube equipment.


----------



## RoundRound

Thanks, 
 I'm using a Schiit Freya. 
  
 I wonder if leaving it connected to a powered-off power amp is considered safe?


----------



## Jozurr

Im not entirely sure what could possibly go wrong with leaving it running without a load? Yes when leaving the house you should always turn off tube equipment generally, but these tubes can't really cause massive damage to anything unless they have some major shorts etc.


----------



## dminches

roundround said:


> Hey guys,
> I got a pair of NOS Tang Sols V-231s that the seller said were tested and matched.
> 
> I used them a bit in my Freya, after about 6 hours they developed a noticeable, loud hum - I swapped their locations and it went away only to come back after a few hours...
> ...


 
  
 Given that you paid significantly less than what these tubes normally cost this isn't a huge surprise.  They still may be ok but I would contact the seller and let him know that they may be bad.
  
 Are you using them in something designed for 6SN7s?


----------



## RoundRound

dminches said:


> Given that you paid significantly less than what these tubes normally cost this isn't a huge surprise.  They still may be ok but I would contact the seller and let him know that they may be bad.
> 
> Are you using them in something designed for 6SN7s?


 

 Yes, I was using them in a Schiit Freya - which was designed for 6SN7 - 
 Anyway I now returned them to the seller and got a refund so all good.


----------



## RoundRound

I wonder how long it takes these NOS tubes to break in?
  
 I understand that most 6SN7 NOS tubes are used to some degree (although 'test new' , but still even if they were broken in and then not used for 30 years (for example) - how many hours of 'new' usage do they need to reach optimal performance?
  
 How long for totally new unused tubes?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## atarione

when I got tubes for my DV none of teh 6SN7 tubes I bough have any noticeable hum however the GE 6AS7GA tube I bought had a slight amount of hum (undetectable w/ my 250Ohms DT880's but noticeable w/ the M50's or DT770's
  
 blah blah blah... i didn't leave the amp on for hours unattended I just continued listening with my DT880's for a day or two  (maybe 8~9 hours) the hum went away in my case..   but from what I have read the time for hum to die down or if the hum ever goes away can vary considerably.
  
  
 with as warm as the DV gets I personally am not too keen on leaving it switched on unattended personally.


----------



## RoundRound

Hello people,
 I have a question about tube matching, I saw on ebay a pair of RCA 6SN7GT, their measurements are:
  
Tube 1: Section 1:  2870 uMhos   Section 2:  2870 uMhos
Tube 2: Section 1:  2555 uMhos   Section 2:  2310 uMhos
  
 Are they matched? Tube 2 is about 20% less powerful than tube 1, no? Am I missing something?
  
 Thank you,


----------



## Jozurr

roundround said:


> Hello people,
> I have a question about tube matching, I saw on ebay a pair of RCA 6SN7GT, their measurements are:
> 
> [COLOR=CC0000][COLOR=000000]Tube 1: Section 1:  2870 uMhos   Section 2:  2870 uMhos[/COLOR][/COLOR]
> ...




No they are not. Generally a matched pair is considered to be under 10% variation AND the tubes have to be similar in construction. For RCA tubes, you should be avoiding the tall lettering tubes (post 1948) and looking for the RCA logo in a circle.


----------



## RoundRound

jozurr said:


> No they are not. Generally a matched pair is considered to be under 10% variation AND the tubes have to be similar in construction. For RCA tubes, you should be avoiding the tall lettering tubes (post 1948) and looking for the RCA logo in a circle.


 

 Thanks mate!
 Much appreciated.
  
 Another Noob question, how to decipher the date on these tubes? Are they good? Supposedly made by Tung Sol:


----------



## Egill23

Yes those are made by Tung-sol. the different upper and lowe mica are characteristic together with the grey t-plates. Then the code 322 means they are Tung Sol tubes and I guess they were made in 1952. These are the mouse ears tube without the ears described on the first page as:
*Tung-Sol White Label 6SN7GT (1940-50s vintage)* *[PHOTO HERE]*
_[made between 1948 and 1956. structure is completely different from the abovementioned Round Plate GTs - these have grey 'T'-plates and a bottom getter. rectangular getter holder. tall bottle with black bases and white labels. these resemble GTBs (the next tube below) except for the bottom getter.]_
 ● “Concurrently with the last days of the TS R-P there was a version with regular ribbed plates - that could have been grey OR black, and has the notorious round side mica spacers termed "mouse ears". A very, very good sounding tube. There was a later version that squared ofc those ears - still the same tube, then they dropped the ears all together and the plates were always grey - still a super sounding tube. But it's not commonly found, and unless it has the mouse ears, people often mistake it for Russian - good for me, I love the tube and pick 'em up at dirrt cheap prices and get better performance that most of the big buck stuff.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)
  
 I haven't heard them myself, so I can't comment on that. I have been eying these two swell as those Tung sol flat plates 6f8g's he sells on ebay, but I need to chill it with the tube purchases until I have evaluated the ones I bought this last month (Ken-Rad vt 231, Rayteon vt-231. National Union vt-99, Sylvania 6sn7wgt & some 49-53's Sylvania 6sn7gt).


----------



## dminches

roundround said:


> Hello people,
> I have a question about tube matching, I saw on ebay a pair of RCA 6SN7GT, their measurements are:
> 
> Tube 1: Section 1:  2870 uMhos   Section 2:  2870 uMhos
> ...


 
  
 Just looking at the gm of a triode is only half the equation.  So the answer to your question is, maybe.  Here is an explanation of matching for triodes.
  
*Triodes*
Triodes have an interesting relationship where two parameters relate to make a third. These parameters are locked into a relationship so that knowing any two will yield the third. Just like ohm's law. In the case of triodes, Mu = Gm x Rp. Gm has the units of mhos, (amps per volt) and Rp has the units of ohms (volts per amp) and when multiplied their units cancel, making MU (a measure of voltage gain) unit-less as it should be. A Mu of 30 means that what goes in comes out 30 times bigger.

Triodes are most widely used for voltage amplification in our preamps. Here, Mu (voltage gain) is the more important parameter to measure and most directly affects what you hear. If you have a tube with a Mu of 30 in one channel and a MU of 33 in the other, you will have a 1-dB imbalance in your preamp. So let’s say you get two triodes matched for Gm. There is no assurance that these tubes will have equal voltage gain. Voltage gain (Mu) is the product of Gm and Rp. So if Gm is matched to, get matched Mu (the important characteristic in this circuit) Rp must be matched also and Rp is almost never measured. So as you can see although the famous Hickock tube testers are sought for their ability to measure Gm, this was more of a marketing ploy and less useful for real-world testing. If the vendor measuring Gm would give you the Rp then you could calculate the Mu by simple multiplication. The reason you don't get the Rp data is that it is hard to measure and no commercial tube tester ever measured it.

Modern audiophiles are more concerned about "matching" than ever before. They want everything to be matched, though they rarely know what it should be matched for. This is a dangerous situation as many of you are buying because the vendor says it is matched, though it may or may not be matched for something unimportant while something important is not matched. Gm and MU are a perfect example.

Rp or plate resistance is the second most important parameter as it directly affects the output impedance of the preamp. Circuit designers are looking at Mu primarily, Rp next and we hardly care about Gm at all. Why then do most vendors measure Gm and Gm alone? Because most testers only measure Gm! No commercial tester ever measured Mu either. And even the Hickock, treasured for measuring Gm, doesn’t measure it meaningfully (due to current dependency), accurately (due to calibration difficulties) or consistently (due to internal circuit drift).

Since Mu is what controls voltage gain, and voltage gain is what we listen to, then lets measure that directly. That is just what we do at RAM TUBE WORKS. Of course we had to build our own tester to do that. A few years ago I heard that one of my competitors tried to duplicate the RAM tester and gave up after spending $100,000. It took me about a year to develop the small tube tester and another 6 months to develop the power tube tester. These were no small efforts.


----------



## ericr

I'm sceptical of vendors claiming to have the secret sauce (that no one else can figure out) that makes the items they sell far superior to the very same items sold by all other vendors.

Does anyone have links or direct knowledge to confirm or refute the claims of RAM TUBE WORKS?

I'm no electonic engineer, so maybe I'm of the mark, but a few things about this pitch bother me:

1) It's a sales pitch.

2) No one seems to be copying him.

3) "Circuit designers are looking at Mu primarily, Rp next and we hardly care about Gm at all."

Well it seems a designer would be working under the assumption that the tubes used in his design are working to factory specification, and if a tube is faltering the owner will replace it with a new one. What is there to care about?

4) "A few years ago I heard that one of my competitors tried to duplicate the RAM tester and gave up after spending $100,000.

OK, millions of tube testers have been made that measure Gm (they used to be found in every hardware, drug and discount store across the USA) - so that can't be too hard. Mu (aka gain) is a measure of amplification - again something common and often done. I'm not familiar with Rp (which he said was plate resistance). Measuring resistance is also something very common, and even if (for some odd reason) it was more difficult to so for a plate inside tube I doubt it is far from an unsolvable problem.

Someone spent $100,000 and couldn't figure out make these three measurements? If so, IMHO it speaks to their incompetence more than the difficulty of the task. Oh wait, I just remembered he said "These parameters are locked into a relationship so that knowing any two will yield the third."

5) He talks about specific of problems (drift, calibration, etc.) common tube testers face, yet he does not claim to have solved these problems. Rather he says let's measure something else instead. Note that no facts are given to show that the end result is better, just that it took a long time for him to build his testers and "he heard" someone failed to copy it.



I'm much more comfortable with vendors who give measured results. Something like "We have the best matched tubes with Mu, Rp, and Gm each matched to within 3%!"

Instead he employs what in marketing speak is known as FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). If the product you are selling doesn't stand out on it's own merits, you spread FUD against your competitors products.

It seems to me he is either really bad at marketing, or *really* good at it.


PS - I find it hilarious that the company name (RAM) in dminches post above actually links to Walmart.com!


----------



## dminches

While what you are saying about RAM may be true, that doesn't mean that the engineering is wrong.
  
 Matching is much more important in power tubes than preamp tubes.  6SN7s do not need to be matched to the same precision as a power tube.
  
 If you find conflicting information regarding the engineering please post it.  
  
 Bob Putnak of tubesound.com has a very good article regarding tube matching.  Worth the read.
  
http://tubesound.com/2010/10/27/tube-matching-with-a-tube-tester/
  
 One of his main points is that tube testers were meant to find bad tubes, not match them.  People who think that 2 tubes shown to be within 10% or each other are matched are kidding themselves.
  
  
 Quote:


ericr said:


> I'm sceptical of vendors claiming to have the secret sauce (that no one else can figure out) that makes the items they sell far superior to the very same items sold by all other vendors.
> 
> Does anyone have links or direct knowledge to confirm or refute the claims of RAM TUBE WORKS?
> 
> I'm no electonic engineer, so maybe I'm of the mark, but a few things about this pitch bother me:


----------



## RoundRound

Hi Guys,
 Very interesting discussion!
  
 Can I add a Noob question and ask how do I know a Tube (6SN7) is at the end of it's life and needs to be replaced? I don't have a tester just by using it in the preamp
 (Schiit Freya).


----------



## RoundRound

Another question, 
 You say that 'power tubes need to be matched' and taht pre-amp tubes are less sensitive, but my understanding is that in the Freya the right pair os 'gain pair' which I read as power tubes...? Am I missing something?
  
 Thank you,


----------



## dminches

roundround said:


> Another question,
> You say that 'power tubes need to be matched' and taht pre-amp tubes are less sensitive, but my understanding is that in the Freya the right pair os 'gain pair' which I read as power tubes...? Am I missing something?
> 
> Thank you,


 
  
 The Freya is a preamp, not a power amp so these aren't power tubes.


----------



## Jacobh

Possibly a dumb question. Tube Depot has NOS Sovtek 6sn7 (supposedly 1970s Novisibirsk) for cheap. I can't find much on these (probably because they aren't good). Anyone know if these are worse than the new production Tung-sols?


----------



## RoundRound

Hello People,
 I bought a pair of NOS Tang-sol mouse ears and one of them has the base cracked - it was mentioned in the ebay listing so I'm not going to return it (they also sound wonderful!).
  
 But I wonder if there's a risk that the base/tube will break when I pull it out of the socket? The pre-amp is a Schiit Freya. picture below:


----------



## Skylab

The TS Mouse Ears were all very prone to cracked bases. Not sure why versus other TS tubes. But in any case, if the tube is working well,and you are careful, it's nothing to be concerned about.


----------



## RoundRound

skylab said:


> The TS Mouse Ears were all very prone to cracked bases. Not sure why versus other TS tubes. But in any case, if the tube is working well,and you are careful, it's nothing to be concerned about.


 

 Thanks mate, so it won't disintegrate if I pull it out gently?
 Sounds brilliant so far!


----------



## ericr

No expert by any means and only have a couple of tubes with cracked bases, but I just try to remember to only pull them out by the base (not the glass) and to pull straight up in one nice clean motion. So far, so good.


----------



## RoundRound

ericr said:


> No expert by any means and only have a couple of tubes with cracked bases, but I just try to remember to only pull them out by the base (not the glass) and to pull straight up in one nice clean motion. So far, so good.


 

 My problem is that with the Freya I can't reach the base and have to pull them from the glass... Also to rock them gently out of the socket...
  
 Does the base actually hold the glass or is there just for cosmetics?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## Pandahead

Quote: 





roundround said:


> My problem is that with the Freya I can't reach the base and have to pull them from the glass... Also to rock them gently out of the socket...
> 
> Does the base actually hold the glass or is there just for cosmetics?
> 
> Thank you!


 
 I originally posted these pictures of my high-tech invention on the Freya thread. Inevitably when I remove tubes the lip of the base catches on the inside of the case opening more often than I'd like. You probably would like to avoid this with the cracked base just to be safe. It also prevents scraped sides as the openings on my Freya are sharp! Hope this helps. (it was easier to photograph on Saga)
  
 Mouse ears are fantastic in Freya. Precise detailed imaging with a huge soundstage. They shame the new production quad I have, but that's just my opinion.
  
 I have yet to deconstruct a 6SN7 but the base appears to be primarily integral to soldering the pins and providing the keyway for proper insertion.


----------



## 432789

my top 6sn7 tube:
  
 RFT 6SN7 (ceramic) as gain tube
 Sylvania 6SN7W black-base as output tube
  
 tungsols rp great but overrated IMO


----------



## Synergist969

Anyone out there who can suggest a 6SN7 tube that won't break the bank, but smooths out the upper frequencies and/or raises the low to mid mid-range...?...Currently using the new manufacture Tung Sol's in the gain stage and the stock tubes in the follower stage, and otherwise listen in buffered mode...both too bright...
  
 In my system, once I replaced the Ragnarok as a pre-amplifer with the Freya, the high frequencies are a bit overpowering...high strings are steely, clarinets, oboes, flutes all sound too "hard" and bright, and trumpets in the higher registers can be a bit to bright to overpowering.  My stereo system is fairly resolving, and worked very well with Ragnarok's pre-amp section, and I have changed nothing else in my system...
  
 Thank you for your input.


----------



## musicman59

synergist969 said:


> Anyone out there who can suggest a 6SN7 tube that won't break the bank, but smooths out the upper frequencies and/or raises the low to mid mid-range...?...Currently using the new manufacture Tung Sol's in the gain stage and the stock tubes in the follower stage, and otherwise listen in buffered mode...both too bright...
> 
> In my system, once I replaced the Ragnarok as a pre-amplifer with the Freya, the high frequencies are a bit overpowering...high strings are steely, clarinets, oboes, flutes all sound too "hard" and bright, and trumpets in the higher registers can be a bit to bright to overpowering.  My stereo system is fairly resolving, and worked very well with Ragnarok's pre-amp section, and I have changed nothing else in my system...
> 
> Thank you for your input.



A potential option is the Ken Rad V231. They go for about $150/pair NOS.
Looks like Brent Jessee (audiotubes dot com) has some.


----------



## Rob N

Anyone know the approx current value of the Sylvania metal base labelled MR (maintenance and repair) with green print on the base in commercial Sylvania boxes


----------



## ericr

rob n said:


> Anyone know the approx current value of the Sylvania metal base labelled MR (maintenance and repair) with green print on the base in commercial Sylvania boxes




Do you have a picture? The only metal base Sylvania 6SN7 I've seen is the 6SN7W (aka 6SN7A).


----------



## Rob N




----------



## ericr

Nice picture. That is a beautiful tube (in many ways)!

Looking at the top of the tube does it say 6SN7W or 6SN7A?

If so, prices I've found for the 6SN7W run from about $100 for rougher appearance to $150-200 for the physical condition shown in your picture. This is for tubes that test to (or very near) new electrically - regardless of appearance.

The 6SN7W was originally made for the US Navy during WWII. It also comes in black base versions (no metal base) that are tall or short bottle (glass). IMHO they rate in order: metal base, black base tall bottle, black base Short bottle. However it is very close between them and regardless of base or size, all my 6SN7W exceed all of my other 6SN7, Sylvania or otherwise (in my system). This includes the highly-rated Tung-Sol black round plate, which is my second favorite 6SN7 tube.

Never seen one with the M&R imprint you mentioned, but if it it is a 6SN7W or 6SN7A it's a winner in my book. 

All IMHO.

-Eric


----------



## OctavianH

Hi guys,
  
 I read the first post and some others, but I cannot say I have found my answer. I plan to upgrade a Little Dot MK2 via adapters to Siemens C3G as driver tubes and 6SN7 as power tubes. I try to find a good match, for a fast/clean/detailed setup to pair with Beyerdynamic T1.2
 Which tubes do you reccomend for more a more detailed/colder sound? I have found some WGTA from Sylvania and Tung-Sol.
  
 Thanks for advice!


----------



## OctavianH

Anyone can give me an advice related to these 6HC8 to be used, as described in previous post, as output / power tubes?
  
https://olxro-ring05.akamaized.net/images_mercadorro/144928711_1_644x461_vand-6-tuburi-electronice-rusesti-6h8c-6sn7-oradea_rev001.jpg
  
https://olxro-ring05.akamaized.net/images_mercadorro/144928711_2_644x461_vand-6-tuburi-electronice-rusesti-6h8c-6sn7-fotografii_rev001.jpg
  
https://olxro-ring05.akamaized.net/images_mercadorro/144928711_3_644x461_vand-6-tuburi-electronice-rusesti-6h8c-6sn7-accesorii-audio-video_rev001.jpg


----------



## Rob N

ericr said:


> Nice picture. That is a beautiful tube (in many ways)!
> 
> Looking at the top of the tube does it say 6SN7W or 6SN7A?
> 
> ...




Here is a pic of the boxes


----------



## ericr

Very cool boxes, in very good shape! 

My *guess* is these boxes are post war packaging. A lot of military equipment was sold as surplus and maybe Sylvania saw an opportunity selling replacement tubes.

M & R sounds similar to today's term MRO (maintenance, repair ans overhaul) used in aviation and industrial manufacturing.

The top should be printed with 6SN7W or 6SN7A. 

Most importantly there should only be two holes (or rivets) per plate.

The typical WWII 6SN7W packaging can be seen here:

http://www.tubemaze.info/sylvania-chs-6sn7w-metal-base/


----------



## Rob N

ericr said:


> Very cool boxes, in very good shape!
> 
> My *guess* is these boxes are post war packaging. A lot of military equipment was sold as surplus and maybe Sylvania saw an opportunity selling replacement tubes.
> 
> ...




My understanding is that during the war some tubes were available to the public and sold with MR markings rather than repackaged military stock


----------



## ericr

Makes sense - that some (likely small) portion of the overall tube production was allocated for civilian M&R purposes.

From the picture it looks *identical* to the 6SN7W. What is imprinted on the top?

Do you own these?

Another thought is the boxes may not be original to the tube. Several of the 6SN7 tubes I've bought came in wonderful vintage boxes that were not correct to the tube.

What's printed on the box end-flap?

What all is printer on the metal base? "M & R" or maybe an anchor?


----------



## winders

Hey folks, I will be buying a Schiit Audio Freya soon and would like some advice on tubes that would work great in it. The two right tubes are the differential voltage gain stage. The two left tubes are for the cathode follower output stage.
  
 I have a nice matched quad set of NOS Sylvania 6SN7WGTA tubes from 1967 that I can use in place of the stock tubes. How good are those tubes? What tubes might be as good or better for Freya?
  
 Which stage is more important when it comes to the tubes? The gain stage or the output stage? Should I be looking at different tube types for each stage?


----------



## Jozurr

winders said:


> Hey folks, I will be buying a Schiit Audio Freya soon and would like some advice on tubes that would work great in it. The two right tubes are the differential voltage gain stage. The two left tubes are for the cathode follower output stage.
> 
> I have a nice matched quad set of NOS Sylvania 6SN7WGTA tubes from 1967 that I can use in place of the stock tubes. How good are those tubes? What tubes might be as good or better for Freya?
> 
> Which stage is more important when it comes to the tubes? The gain stage or the output stage? Should I be looking at different tube types for each stage?




It will depend on the kind of sound you want from the freya as different tubes have different flavour. The driver/gain stage will have a bigger impact compared to follower stage. As long as the pairs are matched you wont have to go for all 4 same tubes unless you want the exact sound of those particular kind of tubes. Otherwise you can blend in two different pairs.


----------



## winders

What is a reasonable price these days for a matched pair of real Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy" tubes?


----------



## Pandahead

I won 4 genuine 3 hole bad boys in a bid for $186.00 but before that I had purchased a pair for $140.00, so it's kind of like be patient and see what shows up and hope only a few people are looking.


----------



## meomap

Hi,

Does anyone here ever try 6SN7 tube from Sophia Electric?
If so, how does it compares to other brands here?

Tx.


----------



## winders

Pandahead said:


> I won 4 genuine 3 hole bad boys in a bid for $186.00 but before that I had purchased a pair for $140.00, so it's kind of like be patient and see what shows up and hope only a few people are looking.



Brent Jesse, the owner of AudioTubes, has said that the two hole version performs identically to the 3 hole version. Looking at the tube construction, they do appear identical except for the holes in the plates. Thoughts?


----------



## Pandahead

winders said:


> Brent Jesse, the owner of AudioTubes, has said that the two hole version performs identically to the 3 hole version. Looking at the tube construction, they do appear identical except for the holes in the plates. Thoughts?



It would be fun to know the answer to this as it relates to Freya but I haven't gone quite that far down the rabbit hole yet to get four more tubes to make a direct comparison. This stuff won't be around forever so I suppose the more we know the better. I have certainly appreciated the info collected on the first page of this thread to use as a reference, it seems like a good road map.
.


----------



## Rob N

No MR on the base but there is the Sylvania logo 

Can't upload pics on this new forum format


----------



## Makiah S

Howdy, really enjoyed reading through this thread!!! I just got my self a Project ember [used to have a starlight] and I went with a Electro Harmonix 6SN7, from Tube Depot [they actually shipped faster and cheaper than amazon, go figure] 

What do you guys think of it? Sound wise I remember I liked my GE 6SN7 GTA but I found better detail with a VokShod Rocket... but I can't remember what my VokShod was, I only remember paying like $49 for it and waiting a month -.- I'm hoping the Electro Harmonix 6SN7, will be detailed enough to merit it's purchase over a GE 6sn7 GTA


----------



## Makiah S

@adhoc I really want to thank you for your initial write up! I did in fact try out the newStock Electro Harmonix 6sn7EH Gold and Non Gold, I've only listened to the Non Gold, but it really does sound pretty great! I'm quite impressed, and I don't think I'd have gotten it, if not your that first post of yours


----------



## larcenasb

Switching between my RCA 1940s grey-glass (VT-231 equivalent) and my Sylvania t-plate (VT-231 equivalent), I notice the purity of sound from the Sylvania -- it's very clean, very controlled -- but the music doesn't reach me. With the RCA, the peaks and emotions of songs GRAB me, churn my insides, and make listening a visceral experience -- but the RCA isn't as clean and controlled as the Sylvania. The sample song here was Adele's "Hello". Anyone else have similar experiences with these tubes? I use a fully-modded Bottlehead Crack and AKG K240 Sextetts.


----------



## gug42 (May 25, 2017)

By the way, Can I use reports and informations about 6SN7 for the sister 6SL7 ?


----------



## belgiangenius

larcenasb said:


> Switching between my RCA 1940s grey-glass (VT-231 equivalent) and my Sylvania t-plate (VT-231 equivalent), I notice the purity of sound from the Sylvania -- it's very clean, very controlled -- but the music doesn't reach me. With the RCA, the peaks and emotions of songs GRAB me, churn my insides, and make listening a visceral experience -- but the RCA isn't as clean and controlled as the Sylvania. The sample song here was Adele's "Hello". Anyone else have similar experiences with these tubes? I use a fully-modded Bottlehead Crack and AKG K240 Sextetts.



That is my experience.   The RCA is romantic and lush and a little lacking on top whereas the Sylvania is completely neutral and detailed but lacking bass.

One of my favorites that seems to combine them both into one is the Raytheon VT-231 flat plate.


----------



## larcenasb

belgiangenius said:


> That is my experience.   The RCA is romantic and lush and a little lacking on top whereas the Sylvania is completely neutral and detailed but lacking bass.
> 
> One of my favorites that seems to combine them both into one is the Raytheon VT-231 flat plate.



I'll have to try and snag a Raytheon then, never heard it yet. Thanks for your input, cheers!


----------



## Makiah S

larcenasb said:


> I'll have to try and snag a Raytheon then, never heard it yet. Thanks for your input, cheers!



I haven't had any issues with Soft bass out of my Sylvania Chrome Dome 6sn7's, I've only got a 1950s Jan-Chs W and a GTA, other wise the clarity is really nice, but I do have a 6sn7 GT Naj CHS Green Label vt231 and a white label vt 231 [no jan chs] both of them are bottom getter flashed with Tall Bottles, I have the White label non vt231 in now, but I'll compare my 2 vt231s to my Jan-Chs 6sn7w

But I'm really loving my Sylvania tubes out of my Project Ember, taut powerful bass great mids and awesome clarity!


----------



## attmci

These are selling like hotcakes.

I am sure they will be gone within one day.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162527576896?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


----------



## belgiangenius

Not a bargain.  You can get a properly matched pair tested for noise, etc., for not a lot more than $176.

It's a bit of a gamble how he's selling them.


----------



## attmci

belgiangenius said:


> Not a bargain.  You can get a properly matched pair tested for noise, etc., for not a lot more than $176.
> 
> It's a bit of a gamble how he's selling them.


Agree. 

These are real NOS tube in military boxes. 

Forget about the measurements.  There is no way he could have enough time to warm up all those tubes before the measurements. I got the first two and afraid of the imbalance issues.  However,  both tubes are tested fine on my tester.


----------



## UntilThen

attmci said:


> Agree.
> 
> These are real NOS tube in military boxes.
> 
> Forget about the measurements.  There is no way he could have enough time to warm up all those tubes before the measurements. I got the first two and afraid of the imbalance issues.  However,  both tubes are tested fine on my tester.



Lovely sounding tubes.


----------



## ericr

Two thumbs up for the 6SN7W!


----------



## gug42 (May 30, 2017)

-


----------



## Makiah S

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAN-CHS-Syl...8f48df&pid=100011&rk=2&rkt=12&sd=162527576896

Wow that's a long link, but I got a 2800/2800 matched 6sn7W Jan-Chs GT, and it's PHENOMENAL! I really love it! I'm going to compare it with the VT231 JAN-CHS variants here in the next few days, I did compare my short bottle chrome dome'd 6sn7W to a tall bottle, bottom getter flashed VT 231 and they shared a simmilar tone, but 6sn7W had better mirco detail.


----------



## gug42

At this price, not worth it to test new production ? cv-181 TII and Z ?


----------



## Makiah S

Hey guys I goof'd and bought an un measured un tested tube, I really have no desire to put it into my Amp without knowing how it measures. What tests can I do with my multi meter to ensure that it's... safe to plug in?


----------



## attmci

belgiangenius said:


> Not a bargain.  You can get a properly matched pair tested for noise, etc., for not a lot more than $176.
> 
> It's a bit of a gamble how he's selling them.



Sir, you mean these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/222531131104?rmvSB=true


----------



## winders

attmci said:


> Sir, you mean these?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/222531131104?rmvSB=true



That is a crazy price for those tubes! Sylvania 6SN7W tubes are nice, but not $280 each nice!


----------



## Tim Le

Does anyone have experience with the new PsVane tubes? They look nice, but how do they sound?


----------



## Seamaster

Need some help here. There are few versions of  Mullard CV181. Do they sound different? Which version to get? Thanks.


----------



## BearMonster

Does anyone here have experience with the JJ 6Sn7?


----------



## Frihed89

No, but I have an opinion anyway.  First of all, if you are using the tube as a driver in some circuits - esp. the cathode follower - the driver doesn't effect the sonic signature, apart from the tube's electrical characteristics.  In that case, a $18.00 6SN7 won't sound any different than a $150 one.  As an output tube, the story is different, and all I can say is: avoid the expensive Chinese tubes.  Buying used (or "NOS") tubes off EBay is a mine field.  Avoid it.  Talk with a reputable dealer. I recommend Jim McShane (google this) or "Byrd" at electrostatic69@twcny.rr.com.  Of course, there are others.  Another alternative is to buy a 7N7 GT or GTB and an adapter.  It is electrically similar to the corresponding 6SN7 model.  They were all made by Sylvania.  Great tube.  Good luck.


----------



## Makiah S

Frihed89 said:


> No, but I have an opinion anyway.  First of all, if you are using the tube as a driver in some circuits - esp. the cathode follower - the driver doesn't effect the sonic signature, apart from the tube's electrical characteristics.  In that case, a $18.00 6SN7 won't sound any different than a $150 one.  As an output tube, the story is different, and all I can say is: avoid the expensive Chinese tubes.  *Buying used (or "NOS") tubes off EBay is a mine field*.  Avoid it.  Talk with a reputable dealer. I recommend Jim McShane (google this) or "Byrd" at electrostatic69@twcny.rr.com.  Of course, there are others.  Another alternative is to buy a 7N7 GT or GTB and an adapter.  It is electrically similar to the corresponding 6SN7 model.  They were all made by Sylvania.  Great tube.  Good luck.


 
Not entirely true, but caution is needed as is a very good return policy, I do most of my purchases on eBay for tubes,but I often need to do 1-2 exchanges as I'll get some in MUCH worse condition that what's been measured an or reported, 

I do like the dedicated dealers more though, much easier to work with and a lot less hassle. Still if you can work through the disaster of eBay you can get some great sounding Tubes for a bit less some times. Still you need to tread very carefully with eBay sellers


----------



## attmci

Frihed89 said:


> No, but I have an opinion anyway.  First of all,_* if you are using the tube as a driver in some circuits - esp. the cathode follower - the driver doesn't effect the sonic signature, apart from the tube's electrical characteristics.  In that case, a $18.00 6SN7 won't sound any different than a $150 one*_.  As an output tube, the story is different, and all I can say is: avoid the expensive Chinese tubes.  Buying used (or "NOS") tubes off EBay is a mine field.  Avoid it.  Talk with a reputable dealer. I recommend Jim McShane (google this) or "Byrd" at electrostatic69@twcny.rr.com.  Of course, there are others.  Another alternative is to buy a 7N7 GT or GTB and an adapter.  It is electrically similar to the corresponding 6SN7 model.  They were all made by Sylvania.  Great tube.  Good luck.



Really?


----------



## wataga123

Looking to identify this pair of Amperex 6sn7gtb's.  I know they are most likely relabeled. Amperex orange world logo. Carton says country of manufacture is stamped on tube, this case it says made in USA. Possible date code 0-40 on both. 1960? 1950? Halo top getter, round mica with 6 spikes, black plates, (t plates at slight angle to each other?) 3 holes but then 2 more holes on outer edge. GE or Sylvania?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



http://imgur.com/a/YH3Ak




http://imgur.com/a/h4BSj


----------



## Oskari

wataga123 said:


> Looking to identify this pair of Amperex 6sn7gtb's.  I know they are most likely relabeled. Amperex orange world logo. Carton says country of manufacture is stamped on tube, this case it says made in USA. Possible date code 0-40 on both. 1960? 1950? Halo top getter, round mica with 6 spikes, black plates, (t plates at slight angle to each other?) 3 holes but then 2 more holes on outer edge. GE or Sylvania?


Sylvania. 1950 is too early for GTB. The type was introduced in 1954.


----------



## JimL11

Agree, probably Sylvania, date code could be for 1960. Sylvania had plates at an angle, GE were facing each other. Also GE had side getter, Sylvania had top getter.


----------



## Blueshound24 (Dec 25, 2017)

Frihed89 said:


> No, but I have an opinion anyway.  First of all, if you are using the tube as a driver in some circuits - esp. the cathode follower - the driver doesn't effect the sonic signature, apart from the tube's electrical characteristics.  In that case, a $18.00 6SN7 won't sound any different than a $150 one.  As an output tube, the story is different, and all I can say is: avoid the expensive Chinese tubes.  Buying used (or "NOS") tubes off EBay is a mine field.  Avoid it.  Talk with a reputable dealer. I recommend Jim McShane (google this) or "Byrd" at electrostatic69@twcny.rr.com.  Of course, there are others.  Another alternative is to buy a 7N7 GT or GTB and an adapter.  It is electrically similar to the corresponding 6SN7 model.  They were all made by Sylvania.  Great tube.  Good luck.




So I have an Icon Audio HP8 MKII but know very little about tube amps/preamps and whether the 6SN7’s are drivers or other. Regarding this amp, would you say the 6SN7 are more important or the ECC83/12AX7 to the quality of the sound? Which tubes should I invest more in, (6SN7 or 12AX7)? Or do they affect the sound equally? Any recommendations for upgrades for either?

It came with 2 - David Shaw CV181 x 2, but right now I’m using 2 - CBS JAN-CHY-5692 brown base, (6sn7), and one Amperex 12ax7 made in Holland (Hammond).



http://www.iconaudio.com/main-products/icon-audio-hp8-mkii/
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/icon-audio-hp8-mk2-tube-headphone-amplifier
_*We use two Class A valves with high quality output transformers that provide ideal matching to almost any headphone type 30-600.*_

*The power supply has generous mains transformer two custom output transformers. The HP8 MK II is a heavy 7kg, and very solidly made, giving you an idea of how much iron you get for your money!*

*Like our other models the HP8 MKII has no printed circuit board and is all hand wired with top quality components. We use silver PTFE audio cable, gold plated terminals and the famous “ALPS” volume pot for sonic purity.*

The front valve is the excellent ECC83/12AX7. this has exceptional detail and fluidity. It complements the super 6SN7 (the best hi fi valve ever?). This combination will give you a simply stunning insight into inner detail of your favourite recordings whether analogue or digital.


·        All hand wired point to point
·        No printed circuit board to ‘colour’ sound
·        Japanese Blue ALPS volume pot.
·        Class A, all Triode circuit
·        Output impedance matching from 6 to 600Ω
·        2 x 6SN7 for output 1x ECC83/12AX7 input valve
·        NOS, Treasure and Full Music types available
·        Signal to noise level -90db
·        Freq response better than 20hz-20kHz +0 –0.2db
·        Total harmonic distortion typically less than 0.2% 1khz
·        Also Suitable for ≥ 8 ohm high efficiency loudspeakers
·        Japanese steel EI transformers with low oxygen copper
·        High quality 2W metal film, & wire-wound resistors
·        Solen audio capacitors, Jensen upgrade available
·        Custom hand wound output transformers
·        Ceramic valve holders for minimum leakage
·        Silver PTFE audio cable
·        Gold plated Input/outputs
·        One line input
·        Loop through facility
·        350mv input sensitivity.


----------



## wataga123

Thanks for the quick replies. They are marked gtb and so are the boxes. I'm gonna say 1960 era.


----------



## Frihed89

Blueshound,  this is a Single-ended design with an output transformer and the output tubes, 6SN7, are paralelled to increase the power out.  The output tubes will have the biggest impact. The driver tube is the 12AX7, and I suspect it is in an SRP or casacde ciruit of some kind, so it should also have some sonic effect, but not nearly as great as the output tubes.  I can't say much more.


----------



## Blueshound24

Frihed89 said:


> Blueshound,  this is a Single-ended design with an output transformer and the output tubes, 6SN7, are paralelled to increase the power out.  The output tubes will have the biggest impact. The driver tube is the 12AX7, and I suspect it is in an SRP or casacde ciruit of some kind, so it should also have some sonic effect, but not nearly as great as the output tubes.  I can't say much more.



Thank you for all that, (not that I understand much of it , I was always curious which tubes I might be better off improving. 

So, any recommendations for an upgraded pair of 6SN7 to replace my CBS JAN-CHY-5692 brown base?


----------



## attmci (Dec 25, 2017)

Blueshound24 said:


> Thank you for all that, (not that I understand much of it , I was always curious which tubes I might be better off improving.
> 
> So, any recommendations for an upgraded pair of 6SN7 to replace my CBS JAN-CHY-5692 brown base?


CBS JAN-CHY-5692 are nice tubes.

Have you consult the manufacture for recommendations?

I do believe the driver tube, your 12AX7, also plays a important role in the amp (a SET?).


----------



## Blueshound24

attmci said:


> CBS JAN-CHY-5692 are nice tubes.
> 
> Have you consult the manufacture for recommendations?
> 
> I do believe the driver tube, your 12AX7, also plays a important role in the amp (a SET?).




It's actually 6sn7 x 2. It came with 2 - David Shaw CV181, but right now I’m using 2 - CBS JAN-CHY-5692 brown base, (6sn7), and one Amperex 12ax7 made in Holland (Hammond). I have emailed them and if I remember right any 6sn7 should work.


----------



## Blueshound24

attmci said:


> CBS JAN-CHY-5692 are nice tubes.
> 
> Have you consult the manufacture for recommendations?
> 
> I do believe the driver tube, your 12AX7, also plays a important role in the amp (a SET?).




I have dealt with Brent Jesse in the past and emailed him,  he concurred the Hytron CBS JAN-CHY-5692 brown base is one of the best NOS tubes of that type,  but he did say the 12AX7 I have could be improved on. I can appreciate his honesty when he says stay with what you have because it's a good tube.



> Thanks for your request.  It sounds like you have the 6SN7 tubes covered very nicely.  The Hytron 5692 is one of the best NOS tubes you can buy of that type!
> 
> The 12AX7 is a tube with much higher gain than the 6SN7.  I would say you can improve there.  If you like the fairly sweet and airy sound of the Amperex, you may wish to upgrade to one of the following:
> 
> ...



So, I guess I may be shopping for a better 12AX7    (looks kinda spendy though...)


----------



## thekorsen (Feb 2, 2018)

Anyone try the Shuguang 6SN7GT? I only found one article that mentioned them in the dark corners of the internet, otherwise they are a ghost in the 6sn7 world. Being Shuguang's cheapest 6SN7 offering I'm surprised to see so little chatter about them.


----------



## Makiah S

thekorsen said:


> Anyone try the Shuguang 6SN7GT? I only found one article that mentioned them in the dark corners of the internet, otherwise they are a ghost in the 6sn7 world. Being Shuguang's cheapest 6SN7 offering I'm surprised to see so little chatter about them.



Huh no I've never even heard of them but sure enough there's folks out there selling a single with balanced triodes ect... for like $30, for what it's worth I prefer the balanced matched ect... EH 6sn7 Black label over my non balanced just what ever EH 6sn7 Gold Label...


----------



## thekorsen

Mshenay said:


> Huh no I've never even heard of them but sure enough there's folks out there selling a single with balanced triodes ect... for like $30, for what it's worth I prefer the balanced matched ect... EH 6sn7 Black label over my non balanced just what ever EH 6sn7 Gold Label...


Welp, found a guy selling the model mentioned in that previously linked article for $19 shipped. Since they were made fairly recently I'm not too worried about the triodes being imbalanced. Took the plunge, will see how it compares to my Tung-Sol "mouse ears" that has some channel imbalance problems and the 6922EH I use regularly in my Vali 2.


----------



## Blueshound24

thekorsen said:


> Anyone try the Shuguang 6SN7GT? I only found one article that mentioned them in the dark corners of the internet, otherwise they are a ghost in the 6sn7 world. Being Shuguang's cheapest 6SN7 offering I'm surprised to see so little chatter about them.


 

One opinion re: Shuguang 6SN7 here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/page-293#post-10955703


----------



## Makiah S (Feb 2, 2018)

Blueshound24 said:


> One opinion re: Shuguang 6SN7 here:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/page-293#post-10955703



Holy smokes $155 for a single Psvanne, I actually heard an Elise over the weekend with a pair of Psvanne's and it was stunning so... I can't really refute how good they must sound. Any one have any thoughts on how they compare to the TOTL NOS 6sn7s? Including those crazy rare $200+ ones

Scratch that I just going to buy one and see how good it really sounds... I always like having a good spare


----------



## abvolt

thekorsen said:


> Anyone try the Shuguang 6SN7GT? I only found one article that mentioned them in the dark corners of the internet, otherwise they are a ghost in the 6sn7 world. Being Shuguang's cheapest 6SN7 offering I'm surprised to see so little chatter about them.



Everything I've ever read on them is their sq is simply great but they don't live long, the two guys I talked to both said these tubes die in less than a year,  that kept me from trying them..enjoy


----------



## Makiah S

Well I picked up a Psvanne MK II... it'll be here in about 2 weeks. I have a show on the 15th and it's set to be delivered on that day at the earliest! So I guess the show is where I'll hear it first lol! Here's to hoping it sounds every bit as good as ppl say. Certainly looks lovely


----------



## attmci (Feb 3, 2018)

Let me share a couple of review articles about the history of the 6SN7GT I had read many times. Hope it won't against the Head-fi rule.

6SN7: Driver of Choice By Eric Barbour © 1999

Listening to 6SN7s By Charles Kittleson and Eric Barbour (pls ignore the ratings. )


link: https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/10064340.pdf


----------



## Makiah S

Just a quick reminder guys don't forget to clean your tube contacts every now and again, just a itty bit of this stuff goes a long way imo

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DeoxIT-D-a...319169&hash=item418887b81a:g:NFEAAOSw8lBTonep


----------



## attmci (Apr 4, 2018)

Mshenay said:


> Just a quick reminder guys don't forget to clean your tube contacts every now and again, just a itty bit of this stuff goes a long way imo
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DeoxIT-D-a...319169&hash=item418887b81a:g:NFEAAOSw8lBTonep


https://www.amazon.com/CAIG-LABORAT...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0000YH6F8

Cheaper

Please set an alert at CCC, and wait this drop below *$22*. Yes, it will.


----------



## Makiah S

attmci said:


> https://www.amazon.com/CAIG-LABORAT...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0000YH6F8
> 
> Cheaper



Thanks! I actually got my pair from Amazon as well just to try it, wasn't pushing the link so much the product. But I'm glad you found a more cost effective avenue


----------



## brad1138 (Feb 4, 2018)

Hello, I am trying to figure where these (pic #1) fit in the list. According to this page http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6sn7.html the GT is the same as VT-231 "type 1" and that fits with some of the comments in the OP of this thread. But these have flat plates, like "type 2" VT-231, and both of these guides refer to a rectangular plate for the "type 1".

I am not sure what I have actually fits any of the descriptions, it seams the flat plates aren't referenced by anyone until the VT-231 with extra support rods came out (pic #2).

When people talk of the Raytheon VT-231 flat plate being a very good tube, do they mean these or, just the later variant with support rods (pic #2)


****EDIT****: The more searching I do, it seems the VT-231 version of this is all but nonexistent. I do not believe this model is what is meant when people say "VT-231 flat plate"


----------



## larcenasb

Since many have talked about 6F8G tubes here, I hope it's okay my posting in this thread.

I've just acquired a couple beautiful Ken-Rad 6F8G round plate tubes, and am wanting to learn how to interpret their date codes.

The tube to the left marked "Ken-Rad" and "VT-99" has a date code of "P2R," and the tube to the right marked "WARDS SUPER AIRLINE" has a date code of "E9R."

Their constructions are identical except that the WARDS has copper tabs holding the plates (see color difference between the tubes). Possibly, I'd guess, that the copper version is of earlier manufacture--but I'm not sure and would really like to know for a fact. So, if anyone has a data sheet for Ken-Rad date codes, or can tell me how to interpret them, I'd be deeply appreciative. Thanks so much and happy listening!


----------



## spacequeen7

There is few B65 up for grabs on ebay  ..little pricey 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/B65-6SN7GT...893423?hash=item2cc774faef:g:CBcAAOSwvThZ1NyF


----------



## brad1138

spacequeen7 said:


> ..little pricey



Just a little..... LOL!


----------



## abvolt

funny wonder if they'll sell..


----------



## attmci

abvolt said:


> funny wonder if they'll sell..


They won't.

But I was surprised another guy had sold a number of these for such a high price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-VT-231-6SN7-GT-WELL-BALANCED-PAIR-Gm-Ip-NOS-PLATINUM-MATCHED-TUBE/140675286711?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=2&asc=44039&meid=07785eaddca44218bcbe2624c8428f30&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=253108327259&itm=140675286711&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


----------



## sasaki99

Can somebody explain me the expression of  "Fry transformer" and "send your transformer up in smoke" 
What is transformer in Audio. 
Thanks


----------



## Frihed89

Power transformers convert AC voltage from your mains up or down to another AC voltage, and block DC votage; Input and output transformers are used for impedance matching from the input signal to the driver or from the power tube to speaker. Interstage transformers either transform the impedance of a signal between two tube stages, or when they needed to convert between single-ended and differential signals.

"Fry" means you overload the transformer on the input side with too much voltage, usually the power tranformer.


----------



## ilikepooters

Not had time to read the whole thread,

Any opinions on the metal base versions of the Russian 6N8S tubes? (Also known as 1578, or, MELZ etc)

They seem to command premium prices from what i see, i want to know if it's just because of rarity or if there's really any sonic value to this pricing.


----------



## MWSVette (Apr 7, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> Not had time to read the whole thread,
> 
> Any opinions on the metal base versions of the Russian 6N8S tubes? (Also known as 1578, or, MELZ etc)
> 
> They seem to command premium prices from what i see, i want to know if it's just because of rarity or if there's really any sonic value to this pricing.




The "Search this thread" field above is your friend.  Search 1578 you will get a number of impressions...


----------



## sasaki99

Frihed89 said:


> Power transformers convert AC voltage from your mains up or down to another AC voltage, and block DC votage; Input and output transformers are used for impedance matching from the input signal to the driver or from the power tube to speaker. Interstage transformers either transform the impedance of a signal between two tube stages, or when they needed to convert between single-ended and differential signals.
> 
> "Fry" means you overload the transformer on the input side with too much voltage, usually the power tranformer.



Thank you sir, I may not understand all these stuff. My question is will these transformers damage my amp or my headphone sir?


----------



## MWSVette (Apr 7, 2018)

sasaki99 said:


> Thank you sir, I may not understand all these stuff. My question is will these transformers damage my amp or my headphone sir?






The transformers are on the right of the amp in this picture.  If you use the wrong tubes or power voltages (115v vs 230) you can burn out or "fry" those transformers resulting in a non-functional amp...


----------



## attmci (Apr 7, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> Not had time to read the whole thread,
> 
> Any opinions on the metal base versions of the Russian 6N8S tubes? (Also known as 1578, or, MELZ etc)
> 
> They seem to command premium prices from what i see, i want to know if it's just because of rarity or if there's really any sonic value to this pricing.



Most metal base versions of the Russian 6N8S tubes are not the famous 1578.


----------



## attmci

sasaki99 said:


> Thank you sir, I may not understand all these stuff. My question is will these transformers damage my amp or my headphone sir?


I don't think your message has anything to do with this thread.

And yes, when the transformers are damaged, your amp is done.


----------



## ZAXX40

attmci said:


> They won't.
> 
> But I was surprised another guy had sold a number of these for such a high price.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-VT-231-6SN7-GT-WELL-BALANCED-PAIR-Gm-Ip-NOS-PLATINUM-MATCHED-TUBE/140675286711?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=2&asc=44039&meid=07785eaddca44218bcbe2624c8428f30&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=253108327259&itm=140675286711&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


I actually bought a pair of these for my Schiit Freya. They were the first tubes that were dead quiet. I have tried the stock tubes, EH and Northern electric tubes. I have not heard any new tubes that I can stand because of noise. I was close to just listening to the solid state option of the preamp till I found these. I would love to find another set of NOS tubes (different from these for testing). From what I have heard so far new tubes are noise makers.


----------



## attmci (Apr 11, 2018)

ZAXX40 said:


> I actually bought a pair of these for my Schiit Freya. They were the first tubes that were dead quiet. I have tried the stock tubes, EH and Northern electric tubes. I have not heard any new tubes that I can stand because of noise. I was close to just listening to the solid state option of the preamp till I found these. I would love to find another set of NOS tubes (different from these for testing). From what I have heard so far new tubes are noise makers.


I was not complaining the quality of these tubes.

Glad you like them.


----------



## spacequeen7

Hi ,anyone familiar with this candles ?


----------



## Oskari

spacequeen7 said:


> Hi ,anyone familiar with this candles ?


Russian rebrands.


Oskari said:


> This Ultron was a house brand of Bürklin; they did not make the tubes themselves.


----------



## spacequeen7

I used to have a Utron tube  but I'm pretty sure it was German made , bottom getter looks Russian tho,Thank you


----------



## Oskari

spacequeen7 said:


> I used to have a Utron tube  but I'm pretty sure it was German made , bottom getter looks Russian tho,Thank you


Yes, in true rebrander fashion they sold tubes from many makers.


----------



## spacequeen7

Oskari said:


> Yes, in true rebrander fashion they sold tubes from many makers.


Hopefully I won't be disappointed  
Cheers


----------



## spacequeen7

Got them "Russian re-brands"  today ,best way to describe them ,they sound similar to one of my favorites - 1950 Raytheon 6sn7gt (pictured ) just improved in all directions  ..,forward-full mids,in your face vocals  ,cleaner top and detailed low end ,I have more then few 6SN7 but this one takes the cake 
Bought quad for electrostatic tube amp so it will be hard to keep away from them,good deal


----------



## winders

Sorry, there is no way those Russian rebrands are any good.....I now do not trust your ears.


----------



## attmci

spacequeen7 said:


> Got them "Russian re-brands"  today ,best way to describe them ,they sound similar to one of my favorites - 1950 Raytheon 6sn7gt (pictured ) just improved in all directions  ..,forward-full mids,in your face vocals  ,cleaner top and detailed low end ,I have more then few 6SN7 but this one takes the cake
> Bought quad for electrostatic tube amp so it will be hard to keep away from them,good deal


As long as you like it, be happy. No need to buy those $300 RCA VT231.


----------



## spacequeen7

attmci said:


> As long as you like it, be happy. No need to buy those $300 RCA VT231.


Unfortunately after quick testing ,one have a major hum and another one shows slight low end distortion so 2 out of 4 ,got them from Denmark for $75


----------



## attmci

spacequeen7 said:


> Unfortunately after quick testing ,one have a major hum and another one shows slight low end distortion so 2 out of 4 ,got them from Denmark for $75


You may want to clean the pins.


----------



## ilikepooters

attmci said:


> You may want to clean the pins.


it's worth touching a hot soldering iron to each pin to reflow the solder.


----------



## ilikepooters

Can anyone tell me if these metal bases I bought from ebay are the famous Melz tubes? Thought it was worth a punt  at the price.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THREE-NO...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## cebuboy

Look for the ones with the holed plates.


----------



## Strat-Mangler

Has anybody compared Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys from 1952 to other years? From what I've read, they were only made during 1950-1953 so I'm wondering if there is any difference in sound from 1952 to the other years.


----------



## Makiah S

I found them to be punchier than other years and other models, so the expected dry'r spacious sound but with a bit more "umph"


----------



## mourip

spacequeen7 said:


> Got them "Russian re-brands"  today ,best way to describe them ,they sound similar to one of my favorites - 1950 Raytheon 6sn7gt (pictured ) just improved in all directions  ..,forward-full mids,in your face vocals  ,cleaner top and detailed low end ,I have more then few 6SN7 but this one takes the cake
> Bought quad for electrostatic tube amp so it will be hard to keep away from them,good deal



Glad to hear this. All that matters is that you enjoy them.


----------



## Nik74

Anyone here have experience with the CBS Hytron 6SN7? I m thinking of them as a b day present to myself, they are expensive though so wonder what others here think of them . I m reading they have an exceptional soundstage so i wonder what the 800S would sound with them


----------



## abvolt

I had a pair of them when I was using 6sn7s with my wa22 they were excellent sounding but I don't remember them being too pricey nothing like the ecc35's I now use..enjoy


----------



## Nik74

Thanks for that. The ones I have found are around £250 a pair... Can ECC35 be used in the place of 6SN7?


----------



## whirlwind

Nik74 said:


> Thanks for that. The ones I have found are around £250 a pair... Can ECC35 be used in the place of 6SN7?



Yes


----------



## TheSnafu

Thanks to all writers here, very helpful 

What kind of lifespan you guys have gotten with 6SN7's ? How it behaves when it's going bad, just fades away or POP 

I swapped my pre- and poweramps 12AU7's and 6922's to 6SN7's (both TungSol 6SN7GTB with adapters) and it was way bigger improvement than swapping to better 12AU7's or 6922's has been before.

cheers


----------



## attmci

Nik74 said:


> Anyone here have experience with the CBS Hytron 6SN7? I m thinking of them as a b day present to myself, they are expensive though so wonder what others here think of them . I m reading they have an exceptional soundstage so i wonder what the 800S would sound with them


Can you use ECC33? So many great tubes in UK/EU.


----------



## abvolt

Nik74 said:


> Thanks for that. The ones I have found are around £250 a pair... Can ECC35 be used in the place of 6SN7?



That seems a little high to me I think I paid like 80 or 90 for the pair but that was also 4 or 5 years ago. I know tube prices are only going up, if they are from a very reputable person then go for it, they do have a very nice sq, the ecc35 & 33's will work well but are much higher priced maybe 200 to 250 each, I love tube rolling..enjoy


----------



## attmci

whirlwind said:


> Yes


It depends.


----------



## Hazi59

I need help identifying these 6h8c tubes. My brother in law gave these to me as a gift, but I want to know as much information about these as I can get. Any help from a savvy tube veteran would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## abvolt

looks like an early Russian maybe the 1960's same as the 6sn7gt I've never tried a Russian tube in my wa22 some members have had very bad results with them, I don't know more then that I'm sure it's on the woo amp thread..


----------



## ilikepooters

Hazi59 said:


> I need help identifying these 6h8c tubes. My brother in law gave these to me as a gift, but I want to know as much information about these as I can get. Any help from a savvy tube veteran would be greatly appreciated!


Those are Nevz (Novosibirsk factory) can tell by the Pentagon logo if both tubes have it.


----------



## Oskari

ilikepooters said:


> Those are Nevz (Novosibirsk factory) can tell by the Pentagon logo if both tubes have it.


Yep, and that's a month-year date below the type code.


----------



## Hazi59

The numbers are XI 69, so I assume that is November 1969...still burning them in. Typical Russian tubes...both hum like crazy. On 23rd hour of burn in...but my Ken Rad VT-231 took 118 hours of burn-in to stop humming.


----------



## mourip (Oct 3, 2018)

I would like to make sure that everyone is aware of how good the 7N7 (14N7) sound. These are early 6SN7 and 12SN7 direct equivalents that in my listening experience rival the best NOS 6SN7s. They are cheap and only require a loctal to octal adapter to work. The inexpensive adapter is easily found on eBay. I use these as output tubes in my LTA MicroZOTL v2 and new LTA MicroZOTL Preamp.

On another topic does anyone have a source for the "holy grail" Russian  Meltz 6H8C/6N8S 1578 OTC 5 hole plate metal base (did I get that right?) tubes? This is one of the last 6SN7 type tubes that I still want to try...


----------



## abvolt

I've been using the 7n7 for some time now they are nice but have never tried any russian tubes..


----------



## JKDJedi

mourip said:


> I would like to make sure that everyone is aware of how good the 7N7 (14N7) sound. These are early 6SN7 and 12SN7 direct equivalents that in my listening experience rival the best NOS 6SN7s. They are cheap and only require a loctal to octal adapter to work. The inexpensive adapter is easily found on eBay. I use these as output tubes in my LTA MicroZOTL v2 and new LTA MicroZOTL Preamp.
> 
> On another topic does anyone have a source for the "holy grail" Russian  Meltz 6H8C/6N8S 1578 OTC 5 hole plate metal base (did I get that right?) tubes? This is one of the last 6SN7 type tubes that I still want to try...


Just started this tube search journey, 2 weeks ago, and have 3 tubes coming in already...what did I get myself into?  Now the 7n7, interesting.


----------



## belgiangenius

mourip said:


> On another topic does anyone have a source for the "holy grail" Russian  Meltz 6H8C/6N8S 1578 OTC 5 hole plate metal base (did I get that right?) tubes? This is one of the last 6SN7 type tubes that I still want to try...



I ordered a couple on ebay from Ukraine guaranteed to be great but got scammed - they were very staticy and noisy, so I ended up getting a refund.


----------



## attmci

belgiangenius said:


> I ordered a couple on ebay from Ukraine guaranteed to be great but got scammed - they were very staticy and noisy, so I ended up getting a refund.


These?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-1578-6N...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## mourip

belgiangenius said:


> I ordered a couple on ebay from Ukraine guaranteed to be great but got scammed - they were very staticy and noisy, so I ended up getting a refund.



Glad to hear that they at least gave you a refund. Try Brent Jesse Recording. He is an excellent seller and carries these sometimes...


----------



## DaaDaa

if you buy something, it doesnt work for you and you get a refund, i think by definition, you didnt get scammed.
if you opened the box and there was a cucumber in it, then you would have been scammed.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 24, 2019)

FYI -- from what I've read, the Melz are notorious for having static.  This is due to the solder and age of the tube, but it can typically be resolved by re-flowing the solder on the tube pins.  You can do this by running a hot soldering iron up and down the pins to melt and re-flow the solder inside.  Be sure to keep the tube in an upright position with pins pointing downward as one does not want to have solder flow into the tube base and possibly bridging pins.  An electronics soldering vise or something similar that can secure the tube in the right position while you perform this task is recommended as it does get too hot for hand-holding.  Several have reported this as resolving the static issue with their Melz tube and while I've not done it specifically on a Melz, I have done this on several older tubes that exhibited static and the static was gone afterwards.

Not recommended on a cucumber, though.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> These?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-1578-6N8S-6SN7-double-triode-USSR-OTK-MELZ/163458583392?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


Only $110..  o.O these that good?


----------



## ilikepooters

Same seller I got mine from. Had the static and I reflowed the solder and now working flawless.

Someone said they think they are a tier 2 tube below the likes of Brimar 13D2, Sylvania bad boy or Mullard ECC32/33 but I've found, in Lyr 3 at least, they are on par if not beating my Marconi B65 and Brimar black glass.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Only $110..  o.O these that good?


I don't have these expensive Russian tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> I don't have these expensive Russian tubes.


Electro Harmonix arriving today for me, stoked!


----------



## TheSnafu

Last week i got pair of Shuguang 6N8PA "globe" tubes. I must say these are pretty awesome tubes: dead silent, balanced and extended sound. Imo as good as CV-181-Z treasure. If not better.

These are pretty large, diameter is 56mm. I use these in my power amps with TAD EF86 and TungSol KT66's. Didn't fit to my pre amp (i knew that sockets were too close so no surprises there, but sure would have been interesting to try that too)...

So, my 6SN7 preferences: pre amp Shuguang CV-181-Z and power amp these 6N8PA's.

cheers


----------



## JKDJedi

TheSnafu said:


> Last week i got pair of Shuguang 6N8PA "globe" tubes. I must say these are pretty awesome tubes: dead silent, balanced and extended sound. Imo as good as CV-181-Z treasure. If not better.
> 
> These are pretty large, diameter is 56mm. I use these in my power amps with TAD EF86 and TungSol KT66's. Didn't fit to my pre amp (i knew that sockets were too close so no surprises there, but sure would have been interesting to try that too)...
> 
> ...


So your all Shuguanged out then, nice, got any pics?


----------



## TheSnafu

Sure, power amps are Nelson Audio Image M9's. CV-181-Z pics are in 6SN7 thread


----------



## Nik74 (Jan 24, 2019)

@JKDJedi The Electroharmonics are an all round very decent option. Enjoying them right now and feel they re good value for money


----------



## JKDJedi

TheSnafu said:


> Sure, power amps are Nelson Audio Image M9's. CV-181-Z pics are in 6SN7 thread


Nice set up!!


----------



## Odin412

TheSnafu said:


> Sure, power amps are Nelson Audio Image M9's. CV-181-Z pics are in 6SN7 thread



Very cool! Are these compatible with the 6SN7 tube? These would be cool to try in my Schiit Saga preamp.


----------



## TheSnafu

6N8P = chinese markings for 6SN7 (GT or GTB) = same tube

Notice what i said about size, these are pretty big. 

You can get these in blue too : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Matched-...h=item467363dde0:g:uRwAAOSwYK1bI2Gk:rk:2:pf:0 

imo absolute bargain in this ~$120/pair range. i got first Shuguangs, CV-181-Z's, at the end of the last summer and haven't had any problems. Longevity was my only concern when buying these, but so far all good.

Standard shipping (free) to EU was less than two weeks.


----------



## JKDJedi

TheSnafu said:


> 6N8P = chinese markings for 6SN7 (GT or GTB) = same tube
> 
> Notice what i said about size, these are pretty big.
> 
> ...


I can grab one of these Shuguangs, CV-181-Z from China for $60, been wanting to try this tube, seems like the most talked about tube on any thread I've been on so far. They have it listed for about $129 in Canada. They do look awesome.


----------



## OldSkool

I'm loving the '52 Sylvania Bad Boys thru a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter in my Woo WA2. Does anyone know if the 7N7's will work with a WA2? If so, will I need to stack adapters?

Cheers!


----------



## JKDJedi

OldSkool said:


> I'm loving the '52 Sylvania Bad Boys thru a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter in my Woo WA2. Does anyone know if the 7N7's will work with a WA2? If so, will I need to stack adapters?
> 
> Cheers!


Post #542 answered that already,  yes adapter needed. It's basically the exact same tube wire for wire as the 6SN7


----------



## ilikepooters

OldSkool said:


> I'm loving the '52 Sylvania Bad Boys thru a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter in my Woo WA2. Does anyone know if the 7N7's will work with a WA2? If so, will I need to stack adapters?
> 
> Cheers!



Can also run 6F8G's but you'll need 2 adaptors


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 25, 2019)

Noob question, what do all these numbers mean when tested? WHen shopping tested numbers are posted 70/70 100/110 ... what does it mean? any 101 tube testing links out there? thanks in advance.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jan 25, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Noob question, what do all these numbers mean when tested? WHen shopping tested numbers are posted 70/70 100/110 ... what does it mean? any 101 tube testing links out there? thanks in advance.



I'm not familiar with that tester, but basically, he's stating NOS / Spec tubes nominally test at 70 for each triode, hence 70/70, with the actual test results being 100/110. I always take ebay seller tube readings with a pinch of salt, plenty of people on there making up test results.

A couple of other standards you might see:

2600/2600 micromohs or umohs, which is the Spec 6SN7 reading for transconductance.
Ia = 9, gm = 2.9, i'm not sure what these mean, but are the spec readings for a 6SN7.

Then there are various emission testers which are pretty useless, they'll tell you if a tube is good or bad but that's about it.


----------



## belgiangenius (Jan 25, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> FYI -- from what I've read, the Melz are notorious for having static.  This is due to the solder and age of the tube, but it can typically be resolved by re-flowing the solder on the tube pins.  You can do this by running a hot soldering iron up and down the pins to melt and re-flow the solder inside.  Be sure to keep the tube in an upright position with pins pointing downward as one does not want to have solder flow into the tube.  An electronics soldering vise or something similar that can secure the tube in the right position while you perform this task is recommended as it does get too hot for hand-holding.  Several have reported this as resolving the static issue with their Melz tube and while I've not done it specifically on a Melz, I have done this on several older tubes that exhibited static and the static was gone afterwards.
> 
> Not recommended on a cucumber, though.



Interesting.  I still have them in my junk pile, so maybe I'll give that a try.

Here they are.  They look good.


----------



## belgiangenius

Dadbeh said:


> if you buy something, it doesnt work for you and you get a refund, i think by definition, you didnt get scammed.
> if you opened the box and there was a cucumber in it, then you would have been scammed.



In my book, a misrepresentation is a misrepresentation, regardless of whether the seller ultimately gives in and issues a refund in order to avoid having to resolve a claim filed against them through Ebay.


----------



## exdmd

The tube sellers to look for are the ones testing their tubes on the industry standard Amplitrex AT1000 tube tester. However the AT1000 can test tubes in fixed bias or automatic bias mode. You should look for tests done in fixed bias mode instead of automatic. Sometimes I think sellers like to use automatic mode because it can report Gm values that are artificially high and not really representative of the true condition of the tube. If a seller has an AT1000 and you are interested in an expensive tube insist on a test done in fixed bias mode.


----------



## attmci

ilikepooters said:


> I'm not familiar with that tester, but basically, he's stating NOS / Spec tubes nominally test at 70 for each triode, hence 70/70, with the actual test results being 100/110. I always take ebay seller tube readings with a pinch of salt, plenty of people on there making up test results.
> 
> A couple of other standards you might see:
> 
> ...


No. 70/70 is 65%.


----------



## alvin sawdust (Jan 25, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> FYI -- from what I've read, the Melz are notorious for having static.  This is due to the solder and age of the tube, but it can typically be resolved by re-flowing the solder on the tube pins.  You can do this by running a hot soldering iron up and down the pins to melt and re-flow the solder inside.  Be sure to keep the tube in an upright position with pins pointing downward as one does not want to have solder flow into the tube.  An electronics soldering vise or something similar that can secure the tube in the right position while you perform this task is recommended as it does get too hot for hand-holding.  Several have reported this as resolving the static issue with their Melz tube and while I've not done it specifically on a Melz, I have done this on several older tubes that exhibited static and the static was gone afterwards.
> 
> Not recommended on a cucumber, though.


Many thanks for the tip. Re-flowed a Melz 1578, Marconi black glass B65 and a CBS Hytron 5692 that were all at deaths door ( or so I thought ) with crackling and static. They are now all dead quiet and sounding great. I even brought life back to a Raytheon 6528 that wouldn't fire up at all.
Couldn't do anything with the cucumber though!


----------



## Ripper2860

Glad it helped.  I can't tell you how many tubes I threw out before I found this tip.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 25, 2019)

attmci said:


> No. 70/70 is 65%.


I don't know what 65% means. and listening to this thing, just got in, I get it now..NOS sounds RIDICULOUS! (Meaning great)


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> I don't know what 65% means. and listening to this thing, just got in, I get it now..NOS sounds RIDICULOUS! (Meaning great)



No worries, your tube was tested as NOS.

It's a rebranded Sylvania (Hygrade Sylvania Corp; 312 ) made in 14th week of 1955.


----------



## attmci (Jan 26, 2019)

An interesting writing about the "*Cryogenic Treatment of Tubes"*

And feel free to read the other articles.


----------



## belgiangenius (Jan 26, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Glad it helped.  I can't tell you how many tubes I threw out before I found this tip.



Dude!  Thanks for this tip!

By chance I still had those 1578s in a junk pile on my bench (photo on previous page).  It's only by chance that they sat there for ~18 months and never found their way out the door.

I heated up a 150W soldering iron until it glowed red and touched each pin of both tubes for about 15 sec.

I plugged them into my Schiit Freya and....dead quiet!

I finally got to try these tubes out.  Damn.  These are some of the best sounding neutral tubes I have ever heard!

They don't have the sweetness of something like a Raytheon VT-231, but they are excellent tubes.  I may try them in the buffer position rather than the driver position.


----------



## attmci

belgiangenius said:


> Dude!  Thanks for this tip!
> 
> By chance I still had those 1578s in a junk pile on my bench (photo on previous page).  It's only by chance that they sat there for ~18 months and never found their way out the door.
> 
> ...


To be honest, you should let the seller know this.


----------



## belgiangenius

attmci said:


> To be honest, you should let the seller know this.



I considered that too.  I will see if he is still on eBay after a year and a half.  

But the reality is they were not delivered in the promised condition.  Now I have unexpectedly managed to repair them myself.  What does that make the items that were delivered worth?  Not an easy question.


----------



## attmci

Fine.


----------



## ilikepooters

Also worth noting, if you see any voids in the bottoms of the pins, a nice blob of cardas quad goes in there nicely


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 7, 2019)

So a Facebook follower just got wind of my new hobby and is bringing his junk from his garage for me to take a peek at, see anything worth keeping?


----------



## alvin sawdust

Ripper2860 said:


> Glad it helped.  I can't tell you how many tubes I threw out before I found this tip.


I am just about to order a better quality soldering iron. Re-flowing will probably be now part of the ritual, when I receive a new (to me) tube, of fine sanding the pins and cleaning with deoxit.
For me it's got to be one of the best tips and one that wouldn't normally cross your mind. I have a GEC A1834 that didn't power up and had a loose base. Have secured the base with two part resin and re-flowed the pins and bingo, sounding wonderful as I type this


----------



## JKDJedi

OMG... For only $7 this baby is KILLING IT!
Raytheon 6SN7GT 280 113 . 
Very s m o o t h with a slight bass hump. Creamy vocals... Superb.


----------



## JKDJedi

So I really don't know what NOS 6SN7 tubes are considered le creme de le creme, but I kind of have an idea what new stock tubes might be, Sophia  https://www.ebay.com/i/163472178030?chn=psand Black Treasure https://www.ebay.com/itm/CV181-Z-Sh...-6SN7-6N8P-6H8C/223139362664?var=521952360483 Or should I just go with NOS tubes?


----------



## attmci (Feb 4, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> So I really don't know what NOS 6SN7 tubes are considered le creme de le creme, but I kind of have an idea what new stock tubes might be, Sophia  https://www.ebay.com/i/163472178030?chn=psand Black Treasure https://www.ebay.com/itm/CV181-Z-Sh...-6SN7-6N8P-6H8C/223139362664?var=521952360483 Or should I just go with NOS tubes?


You may want to ask the guys here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336-336i-tuberolling-tubes.193214/

Oops, you already found your buddy there.


----------



## ilikepooters

JKDJedi said:


> So I really don't know what NOS 6SN7 tubes are considered le creme de le creme, but I kind of have an idea what new stock tubes might be, Sophia  https://www.ebay.com/i/163472178030?chn=psand Black Treasure https://www.ebay.com/itm/CV181-Z-Sh...-6SN7-6N8P-6H8C/223139362664?var=521952360483 Or should I just go with NOS tubes?




There are some really good current production 6SN7's, PS Vane globe from grant fidelity, ShuGuang CV181-Z etc.

For NOS there isn't a lot of top tier tubes that aren't unobtanium

Brimar 13D2 (ultra rare)
Marconi / Osram B65 (ultra rare, ultra expensive)
MELZ (Genuine 1578) (pretty rare in good working order, most of them crackle and need solder reflowing)
Brimar (clear glass with orange print / or black glass white print) (expensive)
Sylvania 6SN7W (very expensive)
Mullard ECC33 (ultra expensive, not an exact equivalent)

Geniune Sylvania bad boy is a good tube, but warm, definitely not neutral. can be $60+
Westinghouse 6SN7GTB D getter (can be found quite cheap, very solid all rounder)


----------



## ggillies

JKDJedi said:


> So a Facebook follower just got wind of my new hobby and is bringing his junk from his garage for me to take a peek at, see anything worth keeping?


That Sylvania looks interesting!  P.S. you have your West Marine user name and password showing in the photo.!


----------



## JKDJedi

ggillies said:


> That Sylvania looks interesting!  P.S. you have your West Marine user name and password showing in the photo.!


LMAO...oops...better delete that..thanks!!


----------



## JKDJedi

ilikepooters said:


> There are some really good current production 6SN7's, PS Vane globe from grant fidelity, ShuGuang CV181-Z etc.
> 
> For NOS there isn't a lot of top tier tubes that aren't unobtanium
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Westinghouse 6SN7GTB recommendation... that tube mated with a relative inexpensive 6080WC NOS Philips on my Darkvoice has turned my HD6XX into a complete different headphone...my god,,,the wide sound stage and overall tonality of the combo for the price has me blown away.. now what to do with the rest of my tubes


----------



## MLGrado

Tungsol Tall Bottle black plates
RCA VT-231 from 40's, gray glass
Ken Rad VT-231 from 40's---- my current favorite. 

Also, don't knock the early Russian tubes (1578 is indeed the best, almost ubobtanium, but there are a SLEW of 1950's early production FOTON 6H8C, that are TRULY NOS, boxes never opened.  They were so cheap and knowing they were still sealed, I bought around 100 of them.  I am good stock with 6SN7 forever now.  The later versions don't sound as good, and stick to FOTON, stay away from the others, like NEVS.  But the early versions I mentioned are EXCELLENT tubes for not a lot of $$$.  Better than any new production I have heard, for significantly less money.


----------



## ilikepooters

I think the NEVZ are OK, nothing spectacular but there are far worse 6SN7's for a whole lot more money.


----------



## JKDJedi

So from the box of tubes I posted about a few weeks back, found one tube that I can use...lol, it's a 9 pin tube so I had to get 9 to 8 pin adapter from Ebay, took forever to get here. the tube I found is the Raytheon 12AT7WA. This puppy puts out a loud dynamic (think, dam, i can really hear how hard he's strumming that guitar) sound, and deepest bass from a  preamp tube to date for me, mind you I've only been dancing with the devil since the holidays. (aka tuberolling) I did a quick check on voltage use with the 6SN7 tubes and they are about 6.3 volts to heat the center, checked on the 12AT7 tubes and the center is heated at 6.3 and 12.6.. So I'm thinking I have a keeper here.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> So from the box of tubes I posted about a few weeks back, found one tube that I can use...lol, it's a 9 pin tube so I had to get 9 to 8 pin adapter from Ebay, took forever to get here. the tube I found is the Raytheon 12AT7WA. This puppy puts out a loud dynamic (think, dam, i can really hear how hard he's strumming that guitar) sound, and deepest bass from a  preamp tube to date for me, mind you I've only been dancing with the devil since the holidays. (aka tuberolling) I did a quick check on voltage use with the 6SN7 tubes and they are about 6.3 volts to heat the center, checked on the 12AT7 tubes and the center is heated at 6.3 and 12.6.. So I'm thinking I have a keeper here.


You know the 12AT7 has a AF of 60 (vs 6SN7's 20) right?


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 13, 2019)

attmci said:


> You know the 12AT7 has a AF of 60 (vs 6SN7's 20) right?


Ok, what is AF? Sounds like maybe not a go?


----------



## leftside

12AT7's... another rabbit hole to jump down. And 12AX7, and 12AU7  The GEC B309 are probably my favorite 12AT7 variant. I use those in my two main amps. The Raytheon windmill getter 12AX7 is a fabulous tube, and I use those in the MC phono stage of my preamp. If your amp can handle them, then I say go for it. Amazing sound from these little tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 13, 2019)

leftside said:


> 12AT7's... another rabbit hole to jump down. And 12AX7, and 12AU7  The GEC B309 are probably my favorite 12AT7 variant. I use those in my two main amps. The Raytheon windmill getter 12AX7 is a fabulous tube, and I use those in the MC phono stage of my preamp. If your amp can handle them, then I say go for it. Amazing sound from these little tubes.


Thanks, hasnt blown up yet.. But you never know.. It is a few decibels louder..  Great sound, best yet for me. Just not sure how long it's gonna stay there.. Any 6SN7 tubes that you know might mimic the 12AT7WA?

Lol..just reread your comment...12AX7 .. Well, if the Darkvoice336se can handle it, I'll flirt with the idea of getting one.


----------



## leftside

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, hasnt blown up yet.. But you never know.. It is a few decibels louder..  Great sound, best yet for me. Just not sure how long it's gonna stay there.. Any 6SN7 tubes that you know might mimic the 12AT7WA?


Afraid not. They are totally different tubes. Always tough to compare tubes when the gain is different. Our ears tend to believe louder = better. The Raytheon 12AT7 are good though.


----------



## attmci

leftside said:


> 12AT7's... another rabbit hole to jump down. And 12AX7, and 12AU7  The GEC B309 are probably my favorite 12AT7 variant. I use those in my two main amps. The Raytheon windmill getter 12AX7 is a fabulous tube, and I use those in the MC phono stage of my preamp. If your amp can handle them, then I say go for it. Amazing sound from these little tubes.


12au7 and 12at7 also has different AF.
It will kill you or your headphones if you used on some  amps.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 14, 2019)

attmci said:


> 12au7 and 12at7 also has different AF.
> It will kill you or your headphones if you used on some  amps.


Thanks for the info, I had to go edit a few posts I did about it, warning them it could explode their  headphones. It did sound .....loud? So yeah, guilty with the louder has to be better crowd...the live tracks sounded so real. :.(  Tito..pass me a tissue.


----------



## mourip (Mar 14, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Ok, what is AF?



Audio Frequency gain.

Most folks just say "gain". It is the factor by which the input signal is multiplied by a given device.

With a higher gain tube you will find yourself using a lower volume setting to get the same effective volume. This may mean that you are using less of your source signal and increasing noise relative to signal.

It may work just fine but only your own ears can tell.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Quick question for those on this thread, has anyone had experience matching 6SN7s with the Woo WA5?


----------



## attmci

http://www.turneraudio.com.au/basic-tube-1.html


----------



## JKDJedi

mourip said:


> Audio Frequency gain.
> 
> Most folks just say "gain". It is the factor by which the input signal is multiplied by given device.
> 
> ...


Thanks, the volume level is louder, but the overall dynamics were incredibly good as well, like a different set of headphones. There was some noise but at certain octaves, not a deal breaker for me, crazy little tube packs a punch!


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 15, 2019)

Mullard CV181 regarded as the optitome of 6SN7 replacement, by some/most? Vs the Sophia Electric Class A 6SN7. Worth grabbing both or?? Anybody here have one or the other?


----------



## leftside

Yes to the Mullard CV181/ECC32. Get a lightly used one for around $200 and you may never bother with a 6SN7 again. As per the norm with Mullard, there are lot's of construction differences with this fabulous tube, so if you are looking for two with matching construction it can sometimes be a little tricky. Pan, wire/rectangular, spade getters, different micas, brown base, black base, etc. The good news is they all sound good, but they are very popular tubes and a lot on eBay have been badly abused/used. Make sure you get test results from a trusted seller with a decent tester.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

mourip said:


> Audio Frequency gain.
> 
> Most folks just say "gain". It is the factor by which the input signal is multiplied by a given device.
> 
> ...


Meh, I paid the extra 4 bucks to get (my very first) JJ 6SN7 selected for low hiss at Tube Depot. And the extra 2 bucks to get a tube selected for a balanced triode. _This thread's be very helpful, thanks eh_.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 16, 2019)

At what Decade did Sylvania take over tube production.., it seems like EVERYTHING was made by Sylvania..lol, I spent some time this morning looking up what I thought was a date code.. 722... turns out it's a manufacture stamp..yes, Sylvania.  A RCA  231 replica? Sounds good, just (I shouldn't be) surprised.


----------



## exdmd

JKDJedi said:


> Mullard CV181 regarded as the optitome of 6SN7 replacement, by some/most? Vs the Sophia Electric Class A 6SN7. Worth grabbing both or?? Anybody here have one or the other?



If you read the first page of this thread there is a caution about the Mullard CV181:


> This tube is highly sought-after. BUT, it is NOT a 6SN7. It is an ECC32, which is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7. As mentioned earlier, the current draw for this tube is 50% higher than a 6SN7. *This will blow most power transformers over time.* And power transformers rarely die alone – they usually take some other parts with them when departing this plane.



Also the 1940's Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates are hard to beat. I have a few some with round, some with oval micas, they sound the same. Best midrange I have heard with exceptional imaging and staging.


----------



## JKDJedi

exdmd said:


> If you read the first page of this thread there is a caution about the Mullard CV181:
> 
> 
> Also the 1940's Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates are hard to beat. I have a few some with round, some with oval micas, they sound the same. Best midrange I have heard with exceptional imaging and staging.


Are the "BAD BOYS" worth grabbing?


----------



## elmoe

JKDJedi said:


> Mullard CV181 regarded as the optitome of 6SN7 replacement, by some/most? Vs the Sophia Electric Class A 6SN7. Worth grabbing both or?? Anybody here have one or the other?



I have a matched pair of Sophias Class As in my MPX3. They replaced a matched pair of Ken Rad VT231s that had too many hours on them. I'd recommend them over most vintage 6SN7s.


----------



## JKDJedi

elmoe said:


> I have a matched pair of Sophias Class As in my MPX3. They replaced a matched pair of Ken Rad VT231s that had too many hours on them. I'd recommend them over most vintage 6SN7s.


Yeah, thats what I'm getting, the Sophia in this video has a nice sense of space compared to the vintage tube.


----------



## elmoe

That's the exact model I have, they have been great performers in my amp for many years now.


----------



## exdmd

JKDJedi said:


> Are the "BAD BOYS" worth grabbing?



Sure if you can get a true Bad Boy with date codes made between late 1951 and early 1953; also three rivet hole plates for under $100 and test strong. The first digit of the date code represents the year, and needs to start with a 1, 2, or 3. If it was made in 1950 it is not a Bad Boy. Example: date code 240 means made week 40 of 1952. My second favourite 6SN7GT after the Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates.


----------



## attmci

exdmd said:


> Sure if you can get a true Bad Boy with date codes made between late 1951 and early 1953; also three rivet hole plates for under $100 and test strong. The first digit of the date code represents the year, and needs to start with a 1, 2, or 3. If it was made in 1950 it is not a Bad Boy. Example: date code 240 means made week 40 of 1952. My second favourite 6SN7GT after the Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates.


I have an idea. We will call all those fakes on the eastbay BadBoy, and the real one GoodBoy from now on.


----------



## JKDJedi

exdmd said:


> Sure if you can get a true Bad Boy with date codes made between late 1951 and early 1953; also three rivet hole plates for under $100 and test strong. The first digit of the date code represents the year, and needs to start with a 1, 2, or 3. If it was made in 1950 it is not a Bad Boy. Example: date code 240 means made week 40 of 1952. My second favourite 6SN7GT after the Tung Sol 6SN7GT round plates.


I'm looking at a 2hole BAdBoy (bottom getter)  322407-3 code (really cheap) I also have a Tall Boy 6SN7GTB? (with a date code of 322HR3) I take the 322 is the Tung-Sol Stamp?


----------



## exdmd

JKDJedi said:


> I'm looking at a 2hole BAdBoy (bottom getter)  322407-3 code (really cheap) I also have a Tall Boy 6SN7GTB? (with a date code of 322HR3) I take the 322 is the Tung-Sol Stamp?



A genuine Bad Boy should have a black base with the Sylvania brand name, triangular logo and codes stamped in green ink. Look for a vertical three digit code next to the triangular Sylvania logo. For example 210 would be week ten of 1952.


----------



## attmci

exdmd said:


> A genuine Bad Boy should have a black base with the Sylvania brand name, triangular logo and codes stamped in green ink. Look for a vertical three digit code next to the triangular Sylvania logo. For example 210 would be week ten of 1952.


There are many rebranded GoodBoy 6SN7GT on the market (For 30-40 bucks).

Make yourself familiar with the structures of a GoodBoy:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/page-1667#post-14794655


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 17, 2019)

exdmd said:


> A genuine Bad Boy should have a black base with the Sylvania brand name, triangular logo and codes stamped in green ink. Look for a vertical three digit code next to the triangular Sylvania logo. For example 210 would be week ten of 1952.





attmci said:


> There are many rebranded GoodBoy 6SN7GT on the market (For 30-40 bucks).
> 
> Make yourself familiar with the structures of a GoodBoy:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/page-1667#post-14794655


Copper tubing and 3 holes.. thank you!
This? ---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7WGT-US...975400?hash=item56c176cb28:g:uSsAAOSwlddcdY0X


----------



## attmci (Mar 17, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Copper tubing and 3 holes.. thank you!
> This? ---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7WGT-US...975400?hash=item56c176cb28:g:uSsAAOSwlddcdY0X


Nope. a GoodBoy has to be a 6SN7GT.

The "BadBoy" you linked  is a 6SN7WGT with high price. Take a note, and ignore that seller in the future.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Nope. a GoodBoy has to be a 6SN7GT.
> 
> The "BadBoy" you linked  is a 6SN7WGT with high price. Take a note, and ignore that seller in the future.


Thanks, I 'm pretty sure I found it, price is up there. Listed as Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT (1951)


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, I 'm pretty sure I found it, price is up there. Listed as Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT (1951)


Also double check the three teeth on the shorter sides of the top mica (no teeth on the bottom one).

Good luck!


----------



## OldSkool

@JKDJedi  The one you linked is a chrome dome and not the same. Real BadBoys have 3 holes (not 2), "teeth" on the top mica and made between mid '51 to early '53. The 1952 tube is the most sought after as there is no doubt it is genuine.

I can't believe the crap I see on ebay that's listed as Badboys and are not even close.


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> Copper tubing and 3 holes.. thank you!
> This? ---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7WGT-US...975400?hash=item56c176cb28:g:uSsAAOSwlddcdY0X



This tube is neither a true "Bad Boy" nor a true "Chrome Dome".  I hate it when sellers throw those names around as physical characteristics when the name is typically used to identify specific tubes.  While 'Bad Boy' and Chrome Dome' are not registered trademarks -- not everything with 3-hole plates is a "Bad Boy" and not everything with a top chrome flashing is a "Chrome Dome".


----------



## attmci (Mar 18, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> This tube is neither a true "Bad Boy" nor a true "Chrome Dome".  I hate it when sellers throw those names around as physical characteristics when the name is typically used to identify specific tubes.  While 'Bad Boy' and Chrome Dome' are not registered trademarks -- not everything with 3-hole plates is a "Bad Boy" and not everything with a top chrome flashing is a "Chrome Dome".


The brand new trademark is GoodBoy.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

OldSkool said:


> @JKDJedi.....{snip}.......
> I can't believe the crap I see on ebay that's listed as Badboys and are not even close.





Ripper2860 said:


> This tube is neither a true "Bad Boy" nor a true "Chrome Dome".  I hate it when sellers throw those names around as physical characteristics when the name is typically used to identify specific tubes.  While 'Bad Boy' and Chrome Dome' are not registered trademarks -- not everything with 3-hole plates is a "Bad Boy" and not everything with a top chrome flashing is a "Chrome Dome".



_Keep this intel coming on the thread. You teach me... and I'll teach others_.


----------



## mourip (Mar 18, 2019)

ebay is a wilderness. I even found a "MATCHED PAIR SYLVANIA BLACK PLATE BAD BOY STYLE 6F8G NOS NIB TUBES" there.

I like the way the seller used "bad boy style"...


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 18, 2019)

attmci said:


> Also double check the three teeth on the shorter sides of the top mica (no teeth on the bottom one).
> 
> Good luck!


Tha


Ripper2860 said:


> This tube is neither a true "Bad Boy" nor a true "Chrome Dome".  I hate it when sellers throw those names around as physical characteristics when the name is typically used to identify specific tubes.  While 'Bad Boy' and Chrome Dome' are not registered trademarks -- not everything with 3-hole plates is a "Bad Boy" and not everything with a top chrome flashing is a "Chrome Dome".


Thanks, quickly learning that this


mourip said:


> ebay is a wilderness. I even found a "MATCHED PAIR SYLVANIA BLACK PLATE BAD BOY STYLE 6F8G NOS NIB TUBES" there.
> 
> I like the way the seller used "bad boy style"...


This guy claims the 3 hole plates are "consumer" versions  of the  VT-231 .


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 18, 2019)

There was never a VT-231 Sylvania Bad Boy.  There were JAN-CHS, but no VT-231.  There was also never a WGT or W true Chrome Dome.  

The true Chrome Domes were almost fully covered w/ top Chrome flashing covering approx 3/4 or more of the tube, were 6SN7GT and were made '51 and '52.

The true Bad Boy was made late '51 to early '53, was labeled as a 6SN7GT or JAN-CHS 6SN7GT, has bottom chrome flashing approx. 1/3 of the way up the bottom of the tube,  has rectangular top and bottom mica with the top mica having 3x spikes on each short side of the top mica.  The  Bad Boy also has black T-plates with 3x rivet holes per plate and copper support rods protruding up through the top mica. **

** Some say there are 2-hole Bad Boys, but these are not technically known as Bad Boys.  They can sound very much like the legit 3-hole Bad Boy, but in my opinion must have all of the physical characteristics of the 3-hole as listed above except for the 2 holes vs 3.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Tha
> 
> Thanks, quickly learning that this
> 
> This guy claims the 3 hole plates are "consumer" versions  of the  VT-231 .



You will become an expert in a couple of years.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Geez.  There was never a VT-231 Sylvania Bad Boy.  There was also never a WGT Chrome Dome.


He didn't say it was, he said the 3 hole consumer version was sometimes regarded as "Bad Boy"


----------



## Ripper2860

OK.  I read too much into that one.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  I read too much into that one.


No my mistake, I edited the original post, I was like, no! That's not what I meant!..


----------



## Ripper2860

NP.  I edited my original post, as well -- to provide more info regarding Bad Boy and Chrome Dome.


----------



## leftside (Mar 20, 2019)

Anyone else using 6J5's or L63's (with adapters) instead of 6SN7's? I have a few and have been really enjoying these tubes. Right up there with the best of the 6SN7's IMO. The UK ones like GEC can be a bit pricey (but still cheaper or on par with other premium 6SN7's) and the US ones like RCA and Raytheon are very good.


----------



## Nik74

Hello everyone. A general question non specific to 6SN7 but still very relevant.
If you had an amplifier that uses a quad of the same valves , say 6SN7 or EL84 etc , 2 for each channel, would you necessarily be looking at buying matched quads, or would you say it is ok or even a good idea to have two matched pairs? 
Would the amplifier topology affect this or would there be any safety considerations in the latter case? 
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts - or being directed somewhere else if you feel this is not a relevant thread
Nik


----------



## mourip

Nik74 said:


> Hello everyone. A general question non specific to 6SN7 but still very relevant.
> If you had an amplifier that uses a quad of the same valves , say 6SN7 or EL84 etc , 2 for each channel, would you necessarily be looking at buying matched quads, or would you say it is ok or even a good idea to have two matched pairs?
> Would the amplifier topology affect this or would there be any safety considerations in the latter case?
> Looking forward to hearing your thoughts - or being directed somewhere else if you feel this is not a relevant thread
> Nik



 My opinion is that as long as you have a way of adjusting channel balance then two matched pairs is fine.


----------



## JKDJedi

So who has a Sylvania NOS JAN 6SN7W? Hear it's the cats meow.


mourip said:


> My opinion is that as long as you have a way of adjusting channel balance then two matched pairs is fine.


I concur, a dual mono block design like LaFigaro would be workable.


----------



## ilikepooters (Mar 22, 2019)

leftside said:


> Anyone else using 6J5's or L63's (with adapters) instead of 6SN7's? I have a few and have been really enjoying these tubes. Right up there with the best of the 6SN7's IMO. The UK ones like GEC can be a bit pricey (but still cheaper or on par with other premium 6SN7's) and the US ones like RCA and Raytheon are very good.



I've had a play with quite a few of these, Osram L63's have all the sound of a B65 at only a fraction of the price. Just looks ugly as sin with adaptor 

Also worth a go are the 6C5 / 6C5G / 6C5 GT. Which are near enough spec wise if you squint at the numbers.

Had really surprising results with the Russian 6S5S / 6C5C, are equivalent to western 6C5 family which are on par with the GEC/MOV L63's for sound quality.


----------



## ilikepooters

double post


----------



## leftside

ilikepooters said:


> I've had a play with quite a few of these, Osram L63's have all the sound of a B65 at only a fraction of the price. Just looks ugly as sin with adaptor
> 
> Also worth a go are the 6C5 / 6C5G / 6C5 GT. Which are near enough spec wise if you squint at the numbers.
> 
> Had really surprising results with the Russian 6S5S / 6C5C, are equivalent to western 6C5 family which are on par with the GEC/MOV L63's for sound quality.


Agreed that the Osram/GEC L63 sounds very similar to the B65. Can never decide if I prefer these over the ECC32 or vice-versa. They don't look tooooooo  bad with adapters 




 

I have a pair of Brimar 6C5G which are nice as well. I'll have to check out the Russian 6C5C.


----------



## JKDJedi

leftside said:


> Agreed that the Osram/GEC L63 sounds very similar to the B65. Can never decide if I prefer these over the ECC32 or vice-versa. They don't look tooooooo  bad with adapters
> 
> 
> 
> I have a pair of Brimar 6C5G which are nice as well. I'll have to check out the Russian 6C5C.


Holy BAt AMps!! DUDE!


----------



## leftside

I was thinking of posting a picture with 4 6BL7's in adapters where the power tubes are at the rear (two each side), but I think that would be tube overload


----------



## JKDJedi

Hey guys the special notes on the first page of this thread has me  a little worried about the 6SN7GTA tubes I have coming in.. are they amp specific and/or will they work in place of a regular 6SN7 tube?  
*
6SN7GTA* *- 'Upgrade' of 6SN7GT, max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total. Hence tube better fulfills special requirements for TV sweep applications, like higher peak power and better impulse capabilities. 
If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer.


----------



## ilikepooters

JKDJedi said:


> Hey guys the special notes on the first page of this thread has me  a little worried about the 6SN7GTA tubes I have coming in.. are they amp specific and/or will they work in place of a regular 6SN7 tube?
> *
> 6SN7GTA* *- 'Upgrade' of 6SN7GT, max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total. Hence tube better fulfills special requirements for TV sweep applications, like higher peak power and better impulse capabilities.
> If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer.




Can use a GTA in place of a regular 6SN7, will likely last slightly longer due to the higher ratings. Using a regular 6SN7 in place of a GTA where the circuit has been designed around the GTA might have some undesired effects though.


----------



## JKDJedi

So i've played with a NOS vs New Tong-Sol 6SN7GTB for some time and feel that the New outshines the NOS in width and just overall musicality, I'm in know of the high praise for NOS tubes as superior vs New tubes, I'd like to think maybe the NOS tube I have might be past it's prime? And don't feel bad if the NEW is just a better tube in comparison, anyone else feel the same?


----------



## Monsterzero

JKDJedi said:


> So i've played with a NOS vs New Tong-Sol 6SN7GTB for some time and feel that the New outshines the NOS in width and just overall musicality, I'm in know of the high praise for NOS tubes as superior vs New tubes, I'd like to think maybe the NOS tube I have might be past it's prime? And don't feel bad if the NEW is just a better tube in comparison, anyone else feel the same?



So you prefer the Russian made over the real one?


----------



## JKDJedi

Monsterzero said:


> So you prefer the Russian made over the real one?


Yes, it resonates a purer and larger sound to my ears. Pairing Tung Sol 7236 and/or Westinghouse 421a with the Russian made Tung Sol just sounds better to my ears.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> So i've played with a NOS vs New Tong-Sol 6SN7GTB for some time and feel that the New outshines the NOS in width and just overall musicality, I'm in know of the high praise for NOS tubes as superior vs New tubes, I'd like to think maybe the NOS tube I have might be past it's prime? And don't feel bad if the NEW is just a better tube in comparison, anyone else feel the same?


A better test would be between the new production and either the "mouse ears" or round plates nos versions. I've done the "mouse ears" and to me it beats the new production.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 15, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> A better test would be between the new production and either the "mouse ears" or round plates nos versions. I've done the "mouse ears" and to me it beats the new production.


Are those the D getters? I can grab a pair for decent price at 90% new EDIT: Ok I found them, those are not 6SN7GTB , they're 6SN7GT Tubes, so not really a true comparison maybe? And thanks, now i'm curious about these guys, these right? ---> http://www.tubemaze.info/tung-sol-6sn7gt-black-t-plate-mouse-ears-mica/


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Are those the D getters? I can grab a pair for decent price at 90% new


Don't think so, the getter is on the bottom in the mouse ears. They usually turn up on ebay. The mouse ears refers to 2 mica disks on either side of the top plate support. Search on ebay for tung-sol 6sn7 mouse ears.


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> Don't think so, the getter is on the bottom in the mouse ears. They usually turn up on ebay. The mouse ears refers to 2 mica disks on either side of the top plate support. Search on ebay for tung-sol 6sn7 mouse ears.


Just found them and edited my prior post, they seem like a keeper and not the same as the pair of tall TungSol 6SN7GTB I'm comparing. My motivation was the video posted by TYCO, he did a NEW - OLD Tung SOL caparison  and I'm finding the exact same results with my headphones, the mids seem to be just a slight more forward with some extended clarity which I like.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Just found them and edited my prior post, they seem like a keeper and not the same as the pair of tall TungSol 6SN7GTB I'm comparing. My motivation was the video posted by TYCO, he did a NEW - OLD Tung SOL caparison  and I'm finding the exact same results with my headphones, the mids seem to be just a slight more forward with some extended clarity which I like.



Thanks for the clip, it'll be interesting to hear what he has to say. No one I've recommended the mouse ears to has had anything bad to say about them.


----------



## JKDJedi

Keno18 said:


> Thanks for the clip, it'll be interesting to hear what he has to say. No one I've recommended the mouse ears to has had anything bad to say about them.


No thank you, I got one coming in the mail to check out, thanks for the heads up!


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> No thank you, I got one coming in the mail to check out, thanks for the heads up!


After you've had a chance to evaluate it please let me know what you think.


----------



## attmci (Jun 16, 2019)

Monsterzero said:


> So you prefer the Russian made over the real one?


It should be read as "So i've played with a NOS vs New Tong-Sol 6SN7GTB for some time and feel that the New outshines the NOS in width and just overall musicality *in my system*"

But, yes, trust your own ears, and just ignore what the others said. 

And no Westinghouse 421a unless it's a rebranded tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> It should be read as "So i've played with a NOS vs New Tong-Sol 6SN7GTB for some time and feel that the New outshines the NOS in width and just overall musicality *in my system*"
> 
> But, yes, trust your own ears, and just ignore what the others said.
> 
> And no Westinghouse 421a unless it's a rebranded tube.


Yeah but the sound is very similar on the YouTube vid (speakers) and on my headphones... two very different systems..


----------



## exdmd

JKDJedi said:


> Are those the D getters? I can grab a pair for decent price at 90% new EDIT: Ok I found them, those are not 6SN7GTB , they're 6SN7GT Tubes, so not really a true comparison maybe? And thanks, now i'm curious about these guys, these right? ---> http://www.tubemaze.info/tung-sol-6sn7gt-black-t-plate-mouse-ears-mica/



If you get a chance you should try the 1940s Tung Sol 6SN7GT with black glass, black round plates with round or oval micas. Expect to pay over $200 though.


----------



## Monsterzero

exdmd said:


> If you get a chance you should try the 1940s Tung Sol 6SN7GT with black glass, black round plates with round or oval micas. Expect to pay over $200 though.



One of my favorites in my GOTL. 3D imaging is fantastic on it. I found mine for $100.00 about a year ago.


----------



## JKDJedi

exdmd said:


> If you get a chance you should try the 1940s Tung Sol 6SN7GT with black glass, black round plates with round or oval micas. Expect to pay over $200 though.


Got any pics of that?


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Got any pics of that?


Here's one: http://www.tubemaze.info/tung-sol-6sn7gt-round-black-plates/


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> Here's one: http://www.tubemaze.info/tung-sol-6sn7gt-round-black-plates/


Nice ...and pics of yours?


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Nice ...and pics of yours?


Too rich for my blood, lol.  I'm content with my RCA grey glass 6SN7's and Sylvania VT-231's.


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## JKDJedi (Jun 16, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> Too rich for my blood, lol.  I'm content with my RCA grey glass 6SN7's and Sylvania VT-231's.


Lol...just messing with ya.. yeah, that one even looks expensive. Found them here---> God why did I have to stumble on these..... these look like de creme de le creme according to the site..but they have 42 pieces to get rid of.. http://www.nostubestore.com/2018/07/tung-sol-jan-ctl-6sn7gt-vt-231-round.html


----------



## JKDJedi

So as usual.. my goofness had ordered a tube not paying attention to the details.. I thought I ordered a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB Mouse Ears tube.. it's actually a 12SN7GTB... @#_& is a 12SN7GTB.. will it work?


----------



## whirlwind

JKDJedi said:


> So as usual.. my goofness had ordered a tube not paying attention to the details.. I thought I ordered a Tung Sol 6SN7GTB Mouse Ears tube.. it's actually a 12SN7GTB... @#_& is a 12SN7GTB.. will it work?



Only if your amp will accept 12 volt  tubes.....if not....maybe you can return it for a 6 volt tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

whirlwind said:


> Only if your amp will accept 12 volt  tubes.....if not....maybe you can return it for a 6 volt tube.


Just got a hold of him and yeah, he's willing to trade, thanks!!


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Lol...just messing with ya.. yeah, that one even looks expensive. Found them here---> God why did I have to stumble on these..... these look like de creme de le creme according to the site..but they have 42 pieces to get rid of.. http://www.nostubestore.com/2018/07/tung-sol-jan-ctl-6sn7gt-vt-231-round.html


I won't trust.


----------



## leftside

attmci said:


> I won't trust.


Why not - I thought that site was very reputable? Have you had problems with them?


----------



## JKDJedi

So I read somewhere here (or other site) that the Westinghouse tube was a good "bang for your buck" 6SN7, and dug up mine from my desk, and...sounds good! probably the widest and airiest (can i use that term...AiRiest?) tube I got, any choice Westinghouse tubes worth looking for? The one I have is the top getter 6SN7GTB 60-48 (1960 48th week?) it's a cheap tube but turns my usually narrow HD6XX into some wide sounding cans.


----------



## belgiangenius

JKDJedi said:


> Lol...just messing with ya.. yeah, that one even looks expensive. Found them here---> God why did I have to stumble on these..... these look like de creme de le creme according to the site..but they have 42 pieces to get rid of.. http://www.nostubestore.com/2018/07/tung-sol-jan-ctl-6sn7gt-vt-231-round.html



Do you research and you will find many of the best tube gurus label the Tungsol round plate as mediocre and overhyped.  Not worth the money, IMHO.


----------



## Monsterzero

belgiangenius said:


> Do you research and you will find many of the best tube gurus label the Tungsol round plate as mediocre and overhyped.  Not worth the money, IMHO.



Different strokes,ears,gear,preferences. Personally the TS 6SN7GT BGRP is one of my fav drivers.


----------



## whirlwind

Monsterzero said:


> Different strokes,ears,gear,preferences. Personally the TS 6SN7GT BGRP is one of my fav drivers.




Mine too.


----------



## exdmd

belgiangenius said:


> Do you research and you will find many of the best tube gurus label the Tungsol round plate as mediocre and overhyped.  Not worth the money, IMHO.



We are going to need to see some links to back that claim up or you are just trolling blowing smoke.


----------



## belgiangenius

exdmd said:


> We are going to need to see some links to back that claim up or you are just trolling blowing smoke.



Dude.  Just go to the first post in this thread and see what Robert H. Says about them.


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> So I read somewhere here (or other site) that the Westinghouse tube was a good "bang for your buck" 6SN7, and dug up mine from my desk, and...sounds good! probably the widest and airiest (can i use that term...AiRiest?) tube I got, any choice Westinghouse tubes worth looking for? The one I have is the top getter 6SN7GTB 60-48 (1960 48th week?) it's a cheap tube but turns my usually narrow HD6XX into some wide sounding cans.



Highly recommend Westinghouse 50's 6SN7GTB with offset black ladder plates and top D-shaped getter holder.  These are pretty hard to find, but do pop-up on occasion and are not crazy expensive (usually south of $50).  It's on my top 5 list of 6SN7 tubes and ranks highly with many on the Schiit Lyr 3 tube rolling thread.  Highly recommended.


----------



## exdmd

belgiangenius said:


> Dude.  Just go to the first post in this thread and see what Robert H. Says about them.


----------



## belgiangenius

● “This tube was never considered special until some dealer got a bunch, noticed the price creeping up, slipped a few judicious posts onto Audio Asylum shilllling them, and sat back to watch he demand he generated drive up the price - and then, it snowballs - everyone's gotta try them - and then, everybody who paid $250 to $300 for a pair of tubes all of a sudden starts hearing incredible things in them and they are the new "best". One idiot on Ebay has even taken to selling French Neotron round plates and alluding to them being as good as Tungsols, or maybe even made by Tungsol! (hint - the Neotron is an OK tube, but nothing special.) The fact is, the T-S round plates are very fine, have great inner transparency and are unique sounding, the mids are not lush, but they do have a nice touch of euphonics, the bass is weaker than I would like and the highs can be sibilant - a problem. It does have the virtue of being the most uniformly quiet 6SN7 and consistent from sample to sample.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Highly recommend Westinghouse 50's 6SN7GTB with offset black ladder plates and top D-shaped getter holder.  These are pretty hard to find, but do pop-up on occasion and are not crazy expensive (usually south of $50).  It's on my top 5 list of 6SN7 tubes and ranks highly with many on the Schiit Lyr 3 tube rolling thread.  Highly recommended.


Thanks Ripper, I'll let you know how these work out


belgiangenius said:


> ● “This tube was never considered special until some dealer got a bunch, noticed the price creeping up, slipped a few judicious posts onto Audio Asylum shilllling them, and sat back to watch he demand he generated drive up the price - and then, it snowballs - everyone's gotta try them - and then, everybody who paid $250 to $300 for a pair of tubes all of a sudden starts hearing incredible things in them and they are the new "best". One idiot on Ebay has even taken to selling French Neotron round plates and alluding to them being as good as Tungsols, or maybe even made by Tungsol! (hint - the Neotron is an OK tube, but nothing special.) The fact is, the T-S round plates are very fine, have great inner transparency and are unique sounding, the mids are not lush, but they do have a nice touch of euphonics, the bass is weaker than I would like and the highs can be sibilant - a problem. It does have the virtue of being the most uniformly quiet 6SN7 and consistent from sample to sample.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)


That's in reference to the VT 231 tube buddy ^^


----------



## belgiangenius (Jun 21, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks Ripper, I'll let you know how these work out
> 
> That's in reference to the VT 231 tube buddy ^^



VT231 is just the military designation of the same tube, buddy.

http://www.nostubestore.com/2018/07/tung-sol-jan-ctl-6sn7gt-vt-231-round.html

The listing even says 6SN7GT/VT-231


----------



## JKDJedi

belgiangenius said:


> VT231 is just the military designation of the same tube, buddy.
> 
> http://www.nostubestore.com/2018/07/tung-sol-jan-ctl-6sn7gt-vt-231-round.html
> 
> The listing even says 6SN7GT/VT-231


 sounds good...thanks!


----------



## Wes S (Jun 24, 2019)

In regards, to the Tung Sol, there are always two sides of the story.  However, I am pretty sure, that tube has remained famous, for a reason. 

The big questions are -  Which one sounds better, the one with copper grid post, or steel? and round plates or oval?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

belgiangenius said:


> Dude!  Thanks for this tip!
> 
> By chance I still had those 1578s in a junk pile on my bench (photo on previous page).  It's only by chance that they sat there for ~18 months and never found their way out the door.
> 
> ...


That sounds rather simple to a noob like me. 150W sounds like a powerful iron, but I do not even have any. What kind of soldering tip - pointed or chisel, i.e. did you touch the pins with a point, or with a flat tip?


----------



## JKDJedi

Are the Brimar 6SN7GT Grey Round Plates really worth $300!? X(


----------



## audiquattro (Jul 17, 2019)

belgiangenius said:


> Do you research and you will find many of the best tube gurus label the Tungsol round plate as mediocre and overhyped.  Not worth the money, IMHO.



After tried about 50+ different types, these are still the reference tube for my Dared DV Parallel SET 300B  amp driver tube.
The Sylvania VT231 6SN7W Metal Base came closely 2nd.

Tried them on Cary SLP-98 preamps as well.    It sounds incredible euphonic.  Warm and juicy.

Like all others said, your setup may vary.  I am all in with tube gear driving my horn / dual concentric / single driver speakers.


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Are the Brimar 6SN7GT Grey Round Plates really worth $300!? X(


Yes!  If they test good, and have no noise or microphonics.  They can be found for cheaper, and also for a lot more.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 19, 2019)

Wes S said:


> Yes!  If they test good, and have no noise or microphonics.  They can be found for cheaper, and also for a lot more.





Wes S said:


> Yes!  If they test good, and have no noise or microphonics.  They can be found for cheaper, and also for a lot more.


I have one and I can confirm that it has an excellent sonic signature for my taste: resolves well in terms of timbres and space, fast and clear, balanced tonality, rich harmonics, and euphonic to my ears in Vali 2 on AKG K702.


----------



## Wes S

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I have one and I can confirm that it has an excellent sonic signature for my taste: resolves well in terms of timbres and space, fast and clear, balanced tonality, rich harmonics, and euphonic to my ears in Vali 2 on AKG K702.


Good description, of one of my favorite tubes.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Wes S said:


> Good description, of one of my favorite tubes.


Thank you. It was in a batch of 30 loose used tubes for which I paid $380. It had no brand on it. In the same batch, I found CBS 5692, and some other very good tubes.


----------



## Roasty

I didn't see this thread before I went on ebay and bought this rca 6sn7..

Can I get some advice if these tubes are any good or should I have purchased something else? Did I overpay for the tubes? 

It'll be used on my woo audio 22 (with Brimar 5z4g/Sophia 274b, and TS 5998).


----------



## audiquattro

Roasty said:


> I didn't see this thread before I went on ebay and bought this rca 6sn7..
> 
> Can I get some advice if these tubes are any good or should I have purchased something else? Did I overpay for the tubes?
> 
> It'll be used on my woo audio 22 (with Brimar 5z4g/Sophia 274b, and TS 5998).




https://www.etsy.com/listing/718654...MIiMuukY7D4wIVkp6fCh30sAFjEAQYASABEgLWMPD_BwE

looks like you overpaid.  

Off topic
As for 5998 type, have you tried with 6080 or Western Electric 421A tube?
The WE 421A sounds much more transparent and euphonic in my 421A/5998 triode push pull amp.


----------



## Roasty

audiquattro said:


> https://www.etsy.com/listing/718654...MIiMuukY7D4wIVkp6fCh30sAFjEAQYASABEgLWMPD_BwE
> 
> looks like you overpaid.
> 
> ...




oh damn.. haha oh well.

I do have matched pairs of Mullard 6080 and  WE421A coming in the mail. looking forward to trying out the WE tubes.


----------



## attmci

audiquattro said:


> https://www.etsy.com/listing/718654...MIiMuukY7D4wIVkp6fCh30sAFjEAQYASABEgLWMPD_BwE
> 
> looks like you overpaid.
> 
> ...


Those two should be disposed according to the readings.
C-top 5998 is very close to 421A if you can find one.


----------



## attmci (Jul 20, 2019)

Roasty said:


> oh damn.. haha oh well.
> 
> I do have matched pairs of Mullard 6080 and  WE421A coming in the mail. looking forward to trying out the WE tubes.


Get a pair of ECC35/33 and a WE422A.

Maybe a pair of b65, Brimar 1988, TS BGRP, metal base GZ34, Syl 6sn7w later.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 21, 2019)

*Sylvania 6SN7GT*. Were they ONLY made between 1946-1953 as this website states? https://www.tubeworld.com/6sn7.htm#sylgt I'm trying to figure out the which decade these tubes are--> 

My understanding is the first number is (top to bottom) last digit of year then next two are numbers of the  week.

ANd Are these the Bad Boys?? Dated 1952.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 21, 2019)

Top pic: 852 looks like a 1952 (8th month) Chrome Dome.  The tube on the right w/ what seems to be a 313 code is a bit of a mystery.  313 looks like a MFG code, but Sylvania's MFG code is 312.  Not sure if that's a factory error, some other type of code (factory code?)  or another MFG relabeled by Sylvania.  I cannot find a reference to a 313 MFG code in any of my docs, so it's a bit of a mystery to me.

Bottom pic:  They seem to have all the required characteristics of Bad Boys and 1952 certainly fall within the range.  6SN7GTA came out about 1954


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 24, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Top pic: 852 looks like a 1952 (8th month) Chrome Dome.  The tube on the right w/ what seems to be a 313 code is a bit of a mystery.  313 looks like a MFG code, but Sylvania's MFG code is 312.  Not sure if that's a factory error, some other type of code (factory code?)  or another MFG relabeled by Sylvania.  I cannot find a reference to a 313 MFG code in any of my docs, so it's a bit of a mystery to me.
> 
> Bottom pic:  They seem to have all the required characteristics of Bad Boys and 1952 certainly fall within the range.  6SN7GTA came out about 1954


Thanks for your input, a member here brought it to my attention (Sennfan83261) some documentation that states the Slyvania 6SN7GT stopped production in 1954 http://vintagetubeservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Octal_Tubes_March_2018.pdf So if the codes read like stated on the first page of this thread end of year (last digit) on top and last two numbers the week of that year, these tubes would be, or read as, 1948 52nd week and 1953 13th week. Thats what my thought s are now if there's any validation the document is correct. And yes I'm hoping these are the real deal "Good Boys" just a little nervous about the getter flash being a liitle dull, usually a sign of leakage. Won these off an auction on Ebay and the price is a liitle to good to believe.. so yeah, a crap shot at best.
Edit: Update, turns out this dealer doesn't know what he's doing, or maybe he does, apparently these tubes got sold without his knowledge and he offered me something different, of course I denied the offer. Be careful out there guys.


----------



## cddc

subscribed


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Those two should be disposed according to the readings.
> C-top 5998 is very close to 421A if you can find one.



I agree the $13ish pair has a very low reading...I personally won't bid on them...waste of money and shipping fee.

On the other hand, the ones on screenshot I think is way overpriced.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

cddc said:


> subscribed


Welcome to the thread, @cddc . What shiny audio toys do you have (or are considering)?


----------



## cddc

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Welcome to the thread, @cddc . What shiny audio toys do you have (or are considering)?



Thanks buddy, I am currently on BH Crack with speedball and HD800/HD650.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Hey guys the special notes on the first page of this thread has me  a little worried about the 6SN7GTA tubes I have coming in.. are they amp specific and/or will they work in place of a regular 6SN7 tube?
> *
> 6SN7GTA* *- 'Upgrade' of 6SN7GT, max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total. Hence tube better fulfills special requirements for TV sweep applications, like higher peak power and better impulse capabilities.
> If your amp is designed around this tube, you MAY NOT be able to substitute in other 6SN7 versions due to the higher ratings for this tube – check with your manufacturer.





ilikepooters said:


> Can use a GTA in place of a regular 6SN7, will likely last slightly longer due to the higher ratings. Using a regular 6SN7 in place of a GTA where the circuit has been designed around the GTA might have some undesired effects though.




Nice Q&A. 

I was once concerned about 6SN7 GTA/B's as well, because their 450V plate voltage is much higher than the 300V GT ones. 

Glad to hear they are okay in circuits designed for 6SN7 GT's, but can someone let me know if GTA/B's are biased correctly in a circuit designed for GT's? Do GTA/B's and GT's have the same B+ voltage (i.e. 450V v.s. 300V is just rating instead of desired B+ voltage)?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 28, 2019)

cddc said:


> Nice Q&A.
> 
> I was once concerned about 6SN7 GTA/B's as well, because their 450V plate voltage is much higher than the 300V GT ones.
> 
> Glad to hear they are okay in circuits designed for 6SN7 GT's, but can someone let me know if GTA/B's are biased correctly in a circuit designed for GT's? Do GTA/B's and GT's have the same B+ voltage (i.e. 450V v.s. 300V is just rating instead of desired B+ voltage)?




Copy n Pasted from the Universe Somewhere...

"This is the later improved version, and the improvements were primarily geared toward the TV chassis designers who demanded more max. plate wattage and voltage, where vertical circuits can put up to 1500 volt pulses at 7 watts on the plates. *For hi-fi audio use, these improvements are meaningless.* These are fine tubes, nonetheless. Most are found in the short glass envelope, but some brands like Raytheon used the Tall Boy style. Sylvania made tubes have the triangular plates mounted lower, and set at angles to each other, although some of the very earliest examples of the GTA types still used the dull blackplates facing each other. RCA used the flat black plates "sideways" to each other, and GE used the grey plates parallel to each other. The Sylvania types in demand have a large top getter patch. The earliest Sylvania GTA types have a green label and heavy top getter flashing extending down the sides of the tube. Watch for the very rare "Tall Boy" Sylvania 6SN7GTA, one of the few tall glass tubes made by Sylvania for this tube type, said to rival the military types in sound quality. The early GTB types are similar, but most have a yellow or red label, with some rare first production run tubes still out there with the 1940s green label. Watch for these tubes, made by Sylvania for other brands like Zenith, Philco, and Motorola. They are currently bargain priced and are the same fine tube as those with the Sylvania label! The versions from the 1960s have the getter just covering the top of the tube. All of these have the same black triangular plates and are excellent tubes. The GE types have a side getter and large parallel grey plates, and the RCA used both bottom or side getter. Some side and bottom getter types have 2 getter patches on top, right above the plates. This often happened during the factory gettering process with 6SN7 types that did not have top getters. It is not a sign of use, as the spots are usually bright silver and visible on tubes still sealed in the box. Most other vintage USA brands you find will have been made by these three vendors, and will be one of the above variations, regardless of brand on the label. A few were made with brown micanol bases, the RCA types being very dark brown, the GE types being a lighter, marbled brown. The brown micanol bases are most often found in military tubes, as they resist heat, moisture, and fungus/mildew growth. It was not uncommon, however, for manufacturers to repackage unsold military surplus tubes in "civilian" boxes and sell them to the general public. Many audiophiles prefer either the Sylvania chrome tops, the RCA, or the GE side getter over any others, even over the military or redbase types. These are all a great bargain now, and are sure to be rare and expensive tomorrow".


Not sure if this answered your question though,   Anywho, just don't slap a 6SN7 tube in an amp designed for these TV tubes. but your ok to use these tv tubes on a 6SN7 amp. Like mentioned on page 1 of this cool thread.


----------



## JKDJedi

Found a nice surprise this weekend thats really blown me away with it's sonic quality, for the price. I've found these Sylvania made tubes (312) usually in pairs, on Ebay for really low prices, some sold individually for $49 and others for $21 a pair (anybody find these cheaper?). Copper posts, low getter flash past the base a bit and angled plates, a good digging up if your ever get the itch to grab something different. 

*ADMIRAL (312) 6SN7GT (1952)
 
*


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Found a nice surprise this weekend thats really blown me away with it's sonic quality, for the price. I've found these Sylvania made tubes (312) usually in pairs, on Ebay for really low prices, some sold individually for $49 and others for $21 a pair (anybody find these cheaper?). Copper posts, low getter flash past the base a bit and angled plates, a good digging up if your ever get the itch to grab something different.
> 
> *ADMIRAL (312) 6SN7GT (1952)
> 
> *




Nice shot, buddy!

And thanks a lot for the cool paragraph above.


----------



## OldSkool

JKDJedi said:


> Found a nice surprise this weekend thats really blown me away with it's sonic quality, for the price. I've found these Sylvania made tubes (312) usually in pairs, on Ebay for really low prices, some sold individually for $49 and others for $21 a pair (anybody find these cheaper?). Copper posts, low getter flash past the base a bit and angled plates, a good digging up if your ever get the itch to grab something different.
> 
> *ADMIRAL (312) 6SN7GT (1952)
> 
> *



Looks like a 3-hole 1952 Bad Boy to me. Nice score!


----------



## Roasty

OldSkool said:


> Looks like a 3-hole 1952 Bad Boy to me. Nice score!



I was googling 6sn7 bad boy and this thread/post came up:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-23

I've no experience with the "bad boy" tubes. have you had a chance to listen to them yourself?


----------



## cddc

I find Bad Boy very tricky...Some people on ebay call the ones with top getter Bad Boy, others call the ones with bottom getter Bad Boy.

And reviews are also mixed. Some say they are very good, some say they have harsh highs, and some say they are just ordinary Syl's and can't hear a difference and so it's hyped.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 29, 2019)

Roasty said:


> I was googling 6sn7 bad boy and this thread/post came up:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-23
> 
> I've no experience with the "bad boy" tubes. have you had a chance to listen to them yourself?




Oh boy....you gonna open a can of worms on this topic, bottom line, they seem to be a collectors item, I read that the JAN-CHS 3 hole 6SN7GT (1952) are built the same/or better than the Sylvnia VT-231 (1940s?) with better dynamic sound. And have a higher than average resale value because of that. Arguably in the ALL TIME top 5 list of 6SN7GT drivers. And yeah, there's skeptics out there that say they can't tell the difference blind folded. Will find out for myself one day, maybe. Been saying that for a couple of months here!  (Cry Wolf?) 

from page 1 of this cool thread... (read page one...all of it.. good stuff there)!

_[*3 holes in each plate*, copper grid posts, bottom getter, green labels, black base and plates, vertical date code (read from top-down) ‘*2*xx’ with ‘xx’ representing week #, 'polished' silvery rectangular mica]
[*NON-1952 *vintage short-bottle 6SN7GTs can have *ROUND MICAS* and NEVER have 3 holes per plate [only 2] - check for an example in my photo gallery]_
● “One tube that you should look out for is 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT. It's constructed with the same tooling as the 40's VT-231, but this tube is different in that it actually has good, propulsive base. I can only speculate why it sounds much better even though the tooling is the same. But it is certainly one of the top 5 6SN7s on my list. For a while, I thought all these Syl rectangular plated 6SN7GT were all the same, but it turns out my previous 1952's were on their last legs.” –Len
● “The best treble I've heard is the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boys" (I refer to these tubes as Syl VT-231s on steroids - better treble and rock solid bass). The first time I heard the 52's, I literally had an "oh my!" reaction to the treble.” –Len
● “The 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT shares the sonic characteristic of the previous 6SN7GT/VT-231 tall bottle, except many say it is more refined and has significantly more (clean) bass.” –Len [in personal correspondence with author]
● “A tube with what is imo a slightly dark and effortlessly natural sound. An extremely sweet (but not overdone) midrange. There is roughly the same amount of slam as the Ken-Rad VT-231 [KR], yet the slam is definitely less visceral than the KR. This is an extremely musical tube, with a less airy sound than both the KR and Raytheon [RT]. The treble on this tube is more ‘tubey’ sounding, and is less cold than the KR and certainly the RT. What surprised me was that there was slightly less discernable low level detail than the KR. Low level detail is the same as the RT. Instrument separation was slightly less than the RT. A completely non-fatiguing tube to listen to. Female vocals are a joy to listen to on this tube – echoing another member, I really feel like reaching across and getting to know Diana Krall a –whole- lot better with this tube. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




” –adhoc
● “If you can, try the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT from 1952, bottom getter - incredible bass, warm lovely mids and very extended sweet highs. Some days I think this may be the best sounding 6SN7 ever made.” –Robert H
● “The '52 Syl came to me from Neville in Australia who had a big stash and I first posted about them on Tubes Asylum and coined the "Bad Boys" moniker that still sticks. Your description is dead on, later in '52 the tube changed to a shorter bottle with round serrated micas - an ordinary, dry sounding tube - but it does have a 1952 date code and many sellers try to pass it off as the good ones. All around this is one of the best 6SN7's ever made.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)


----------



## Alchemy_

I'm a pretty big novice so I don't know how reliable my opinion is here but I do have a real badboy running in my Bottlehead Crackatwoa and I have to say adhoc pretty much nails the description. I also have to agree with another opinion I've found around that this tube is a little "shy" and that sound seems to want to be drawn out of it.

I've been running it for around a month and against my long time RCA grey-glass the badboy is exceptionally non-fatiguing and produces a dark sound signature with very smooth highs, and keeps it's main claim over its vt-231 predecessor that it can deliver solid bass. Personally I absolutely love this tube particularly when I'm listening to more relaxing music. To me this tube has one hell of a unique sound signature.

If it matters to anyone I pair all this with a 6336A power tube. The Crackatwoa is a shunt regulated and CCS fed OTL amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

Hoping someone can help me here, I'm eyeing a 6SN7GT tube and they have two types, a GAIN and a Driver. o.O When did 6SN7GT have two different type? I sent him a pic of my Darkvoice amp and he insisted that  "You would need a "gain stage" tube as you have a single 6SN7 which acts for both gain and driving purposes". This sound right? My Darkvoice amp has one slot for 6AS7G power tube and one slot 6SN7 tube. The difference between the GAin and Driver 6SN7GT tube that I'm looking at is $40


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Hoping someone can help me here, I'm eyeing a 6SN7GT tube and they have two types, a GAIN and a Driver. o.O When did 6SN7GT have two different type? I sent him a pic of my Darkvoice amp and he insisted that  "You would need a "gain stage" tube as you have a single 6SN7 which acts for both gain and driving purposes". This sound right? My Darkvoice amp has one slot for 6AS7G power tube and one slot 6SN7 tube. The difference between the GAin and Driver 6SN7GT tube that I'm looking at is $40


Doesn't sound kosher. One  6sn7gt may have more gain than another but I think that is due to length of use. Not originally manufactured that way. The longer you use a tube the more it wears out, therefore less gain (amplification).


----------



## JimL11

JKDJedi said:


> Hoping someone can help me here, I'm eyeing a 6SN7GT tube and they have two types, a GAIN and a Driver. o.O When did 6SN7GT have two different type? I sent him a pic of my Darkvoice amp and he insisted that  "You would need a "gain stage" tube as you have a single 6SN7 which acts for both gain and driving purposes". This sound right? My Darkvoice amp has one slot for 6AS7G power tube and one slot 6SN7 tube. The difference between the GAin and Driver 6SN7GT tube that I'm looking at is $40



A 6SN7 is a 6SN7, there aren't two types. Maybe the seller is thinking that a gain stage tube (generally a grounded cathode topology with voltage gain) needs to be quieter than a driving stage tube (often a cathode follower topology with current gain but no voltage gain), but since the Darkvoice amp is working at line voltages, it really shouldn't make a noticeable difference.


----------



## exdmd (Aug 3, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Oh boy....you gonna open a can of worms on this topic, bottom line, they seem to be a collectors item, I read that the JAN-CHS 3 hole 6SN7GT (1952) are built the same/or better than the Sylvnia VT-231 (1940s?) with better dynamic sound. And have a higher than average resale value because of that. Arguably in the ALL TIME top 5 list of 6SN7GT drivers. And yeah, there's skeptics out there that say they can't tell the difference blind folded. Will find out for myself one day, maybe. Been saying that for a couple of months here!  (Cry Wolf?)
> 
> from page 1 of this cool thread... (read page one...all of it.. good stuff there)!
> 
> ...



Here is the relevant thread on Tubes Asylum for anyone definitively needing to identify a real Sylvania "Bad Boy". Another link worth reading is this one at Audiomart. I have had them and they are worth seeking out but I do still prefer the 1940's Tung Sol round plates.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 3, 2019)

exdmd said:


> Here is the relevant thread on Tubes Asylum for anyone definitively needing to identify a real Sylvania "Bad Boy". Another link worth reading is this one at Audiomart. I have had them and they are worth seeking out but I do still prefer the 1940's Tung Sol round plates.


I'm laughing at the idea that someone bought a rebranded Sylvania (RCA)for  that much.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Hoping someone can help me here, I'm eyeing a 6SN7GT tube and they have two types, a GAIN and a Driver. o.O When did 6SN7GT have two different type? I sent him a pic of my Darkvoice amp and he insisted that  "You would need a "gain stage" tube as you have a single 6SN7 which acts for both gain and driving purposes". This sound right? My Darkvoice amp has one slot for 6AS7G power tube and one slot 6SN7 tube. The difference between the GAin and Driver 6SN7GT tube that I'm looking at is $40




Sounds pretty weird...my take on that is one of the 6SN7's could possibly be noisier than the other. It could be microphonic in driver stage while still quiet in gain stage.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 4, 2019)

cddc said:


> Sounds pretty weird...my take on that is one of the 6SN7's could possibly be noisier than the other. It could be microphonic in driver stage while still quiet in gain stage.


I think he believes my amp is 6SN7 only.. this was his initial response to my Driver vs Gain 6SN7GT question...

"The power tubes need to be driven. In case there is no any separate driving tubes in the circuit, that means the gain (input) tubes operate for both task : voltage amplification plus driving.
In such a design as yours it would be better to use the tubes selected for gain stage. The tubes selected for driver stage might later be slightly microphonic in the course of time which would be negligible if they are used for the driving task only. "

So just get the said GAIN tube to be safe? Or not deal with the questionable logic of this guy?


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I think he believes my amp is 6SN7 only.. this was his initial response to my Driver vs Gain 6SN7GT question...
> 
> "The power tubes need to be driven. In case there is no any separate driving tubes in the circuit, that means the gain (input) tubes operate for both task : voltage amplification plus driving.
> In such a design as yours it would be better to use the tubes selected for gain stage. The tubes selected for driver stage might later be slightly microphonic in the course of time which would be negligible if they are used for the driving task only. "
> ...




You are right. I think the guy made a mistake. He thought the 6SN7 in your amp acts as both driver and power, which is not true, as it has 6AS7G as power tube.


----------



## cddc

So seller has 2 types of 6SN7's, with one being slightly microphonic, especially used as power/GAIN tube. Well, it might be quiet in the driver stage, or not, but it's up to you. If it has 30-day Return Policy, you can probably give the noisier ones a shot.


----------



## JKDJedi

*UltraSonic Rx Damping Instrument 

 *_Snake Oil? _


----------



## Skylab

IMO, mildly useful if you have a microphonic tube. Otherwise of no value.


----------



## Wes S

Skylab said:


> IMO, mildly useful if you have a microphonic tube. Otherwise of no value.


I tried them and they helped just a little bit with a slightly microphonic tube, and in my opinion were not worth what I paid for them.  For my really microphonic tubes, they did nothing. I also like the look of just the tube by itself.  I believe others have had good experiences, and maybe they put their in a better position on the tube?


----------



## mourip

Skylab said:


> IMO, mildly useful if you have a microphonic tube. Otherwise of no value.



I have tried silicone dampening rings, tube shields and also Mapleshade brass weights. 

I either heard no change or, unfortunately, found some "life" was removed from the music...making the name "tube dampener" all too real


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 27, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> *UltraSonic Rx Damping Instrument  *_Snake Oil? _


I actually put these dampers on my Psvane 6SN7 (stock drivers in Feliks-Audio Elise) just last week, and placebo or not feel it added a bit blacker background, instrument separation and clarity to the mids, a little better treble extension. Differences are small but positive, and it's relatively affordable. They offer a 60 day return, so may be worth trying for yourself.


----------



## JKDJedi

What year did they change the RCA logo on the 6SN7GT? I just got one in but the date codes are half rubbed off   trying to figure out which decade this tube is.


----------



## Ripper2860

The big meatball logo is typically '40s, IIRC.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> The big meatball logo is typically '40s, IIRC.


I concur.


----------



## JKDJedi

Great Write up--->  https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


----------



## sennfan83261

Ripper2860 said:


> The big meatball logo is typically '40s, IIRC.


I think I answered the question in another thread, but I want to include it here mainly for the link to the guide on RCA's naming convention for their tubes.


sennfan83261 said:


> If "G5" is indicated on that 6SN7GT (it looks that way to me), then it is a private-brand non-OEM tube with a shipping date of June, 1945 (see "2. RCA DATE OF SHIPMENT" in the source below).  From 1936-1945, RCA tube date codes went by "Letter-Last Digit of the Year-E," where the "E" is indicative of an OEM shipment.  If the terminal "E" is missing, then it is a non-OEM shipment.  Hope this helps!
> 
> Source: http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf


----------



## mourip

JKDJedi said:


> Great Write up--->  https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/



Excellent indeed. Nice to see the 7N7 mentioned.

I have owned and tried many of the best 6SN7 variants, including the TSRPs and found the 7N7 to surpass them all. Very clear with linear fidelity throughout the bandwidth. 

They are cheap and all you need is a pair of loctal to 8 pin adapters easily found on eBay. If you need a 12SN7 you can use a 14N7. I uses these in my Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL v2 and  ZOTL Preamp.


----------



## attmci

mourip said:


> Excellent indeed. Nice to see the 7N7 mentioned.
> 
> I have owned and tried many of the best 6SN7 variants, including the TSRPs and found the 7N7 to surpass them all. Very clear with linear fidelity throughout the bandwidth.
> 
> They are cheap and all you need is a pair of loctal to 8 pin adapters easily found on eBay. If you need a 12SN7 you can use a 14N7. I uses these in my Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL v2 and  ZOTL Preamp.


It depends, it depends.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 8, 2019)

attmci said:


> It depends, it depends.





mourip said:


> Excellent indeed. Nice to see the 7N7 mentioned.
> 
> I have owned and tried many of the best 6SN7 variants, including the TSRPs and found the 7N7 to surpass them all. Very clear with linear fidelity throughout the bandwidth.
> 
> They are cheap and all you need is a pair of loctal to 8 pin adapters easily found on eBay. If you need a 12SN7 you can use a 14N7. I uses these in my Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL v2 and  ZOTL Preamp.


Might just grab a 7n7 for collection sake, not at all expensive but little here and a little there adds up!   Anyway, quick looking in revealed that most 7n7 tubes were made by Sylvania, no surprise there I quess.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Might just grab a 7n7 for collection sake, not at all expensive but little here and a little there adds up!   Anyway, quick looking in revealed that most 7n7 tubes were made by Sylvania, no surprise there I quess.



Hey JKDJedi - so you gonna run a 7n7 in the DV?  Challenge Accepted?
_
_


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 8, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Hey JKDJedi - so you gonna run a 7n7 in the DV?  Challenge Accepted?


And a (1950's?) Marconi 6CG7..but don't tell no one,


----------



## mourip (Sep 8, 2019)

attmci said:


> It depends, it depends.



Depends...on? 

Did you want to contribute something?

If you are saying that everything is system dependent and viewed according to subjective taste then I would certainly agree. Most appraisals of tubes on this thread are subjective. If enough folks talk up a tube then it becomes popular and everyone wants to try it. I am just trying to offer an alternative for those who want to try an inexpensive tube that they might really enjoy.


----------



## JKDJedi

mourip said:


> Depends...on?
> 
> Did you want to contribute something?
> 
> If you are saying that everything is system dependent and viewed according to subjective taste then I would certainly agree. Most appraisals of tubes on this thread are subjective. If enough folks talk up a tube then it becomes popular and everyone wants to try it. I am just trying to offer an alternative for those who want to try an inexpensive tube that they might really enjoy.


All of the above, and maybe the TSRP comment??     Hey,  in my best Danny DeVito voice... " Forget About It"!  Jokes aside, thanks for the 7n7 comment, I rushed and ordered one after reading it.


----------



## attmci

mourip said:


> Depends...on?
> 
> Did you want to contribute something?
> 
> If you are saying that everything is system dependent and viewed according to subjective taste then I would certainly agree. Most appraisals of tubes on this thread are subjective. If enough folks talk up a tube then it becomes popular and everyone wants to try it. I am just trying to offer an alternative for those who want to try an inexpensive tube that they might really enjoy.


Where I have almost all the various 6sn7 and related tubes.

But it's the first time I heard a 7n7 beat a TS BGRP. So I said it depends. Sorry if that hurt your feelings.

You do have a very special amp. And I appreciate you sharing the information.

Enjoy.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Sep 9, 2019)

mourip said:


> Excellent indeed. Nice to see the 7N7 mentioned.
> 
> I have owned and tried many of the best 6SN7 variants, including the TSRPs and found the 7N7 to surpass them all. Very clear with linear fidelity throughout the bandwidth.
> 
> They are cheap and all you need is a pair of loctal to 8 pin adapters easily found on eBay. If you need a 12SN7 you can use a 14N7. I uses these in my Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL v2 and  ZOTL Preamp.


Well. Like 6SN7, 7N7 are not all made equal - although the variety is smaller. @bcowen has a post on 7N7 he calls Frankentube, Philco made in Lansdale (former National Union factory), which some of us agree is the best among them. I recently bought two of the NOS for $50, so cheap they are no longer. The rest depends on your equipment and preferences.


----------



## mourip

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Well. Like 6SN7, 7N7 are not all made equal - although the variety is lesser. @bcowen has a post on 7N7 he calls Frankentube, Philco made in Lansdale (former National Union factory), which some of us agree is the best among them. I recently bought two of the NOS for $50, so cheap they are no longer. The rest depends on your equipment and preferences.



Thanks for the reference to the Frankentube. I have been using tall bottle 7N7s with T-plates. Not sure about the other qualifications.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Well. Like 6SN7, 7N7 are not all made equal - although the variety is lesser. @bcowen has a post on 7N7 he calls Frankentube, Philco made in Lansdale (former National Union factory), which some of us agree is the best among them. I recently bought two of the NOS for $50, so cheap they are no longer. The rest depends on your equipment and preferences.


Happiness is finding said post..got my popcorn ready and reading this thing....now 

EDIT: My Search Begins... I'm coming to get you Frankentube


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

JKDJedi said:


> Happiness is finding said post..got my popcorn ready and reading this thing....now
> 
> EDIT: My Search Begins... I'm coming to get you Frankentube



these look like it, but better check with @bcowen 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-Tung-Sol-7N7-Vacuum-Tubes-RARE-Tall-Bottle-Box-Plate-Audio-Twin-Triodes/283540549638


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> these look like it, but better check with @bcowen
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-Tung-Sol-7N7-Vacuum-Tubes-RARE-Tall-Bottle-Box-Plate-Audio-Twin-Triodes/283540549638


Thanks Deaf Donkey , after reading his  small write up on the Frankentube, did a search (looking for tall 7n7, chrome dome 1/3 of the way down, race track oval micas, Black T plates, and the flat Frankenstein head up top) it was quick to find,  Not as exotic as the Tung Sols you shared with me, but very close if not carbon copy on build, Philco branded. ( Made by National Union? )


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks Deaf Donkey , after reading his  small write up on the Frankentube, did a search (looking for tall 7n7, chrome dome 1/3 of the way down, race track oval micas, Black T plates, and the flat Frankenstein head up top) it was quick to find,  Not as exotic as the Tung Sols you shared with me, but very close if not carbon copy on build, Philco branded. ( Made by National Union? )



I cannot confirm with certainty who made them. Pretty darn sure they were made by Sylvania though.  7N7's were made only by Sylvania and National Union (again, not 100% certain on that but pretty darn sure as well), so the exterior branding is irrelevant.  The Philcos you've pictured look to be genuine Frankies as are the Tung Sols in the Ebay link. Pretty pricey though. There's another ad on Ebay right now.  Says they are new, but not tested and I can't see the bottom mica clearly. That true fully oval "racetrack" mica with no points on it is key.  But $23 with free shipping isn't a bad deal, just be aware of the caveats.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202774994841?ul_noapp=true


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 9, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I cannot confirm with certainty who made them. Pretty darn sure they were made by Sylvania though.  7N7's were made only by Sylvania and National Union (again, not 100% certain on that but pretty darn sure as well), so the exterior branding is irrelevant.  The Philcos you've pictured look to be genuine Frankies as are the Tung Sols in the Ebay link. Pretty pricey though. There's another ad on Ebay right now.  Says they are new, but not tested and I can't see the bottom mica clearly. That true fully oval "racetrack" mica with no points on it is key.  But $23 with free shipping isn't a bad deal, just be aware of the caveats.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/202774994841?ul_noapp=true


Thanks for the post, looks like they just have one left. The pair I grabbed went for $33 delivered and tested/advertised at 86% so if they are the Frankies,  Reading some of these threads is huge entertainment (new tube every Thursday!  ) with tons of tips and knowledge. Feeling like a kid in a candy store.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks for the post, looks like they just have one left. The pair I grabbed went for $33 delivered and tested/advertised at 86% so if they are the Frankies,  Reading some of these threads is huge entertainment (new tube every Thursday!  ) with tons of tips and knowledge. Feeling like a kid in a candy store.



$33 delivered isn't bad at all for a pair.  Just commit to yourself that you'll hang here or the Lyr 3 Tube Roller's thread.  If you mistakenly wander over to the Lyr Tube Rollers thread (different than the Lyr 3 thread), you'll find yourself spending your mortgage payment on adapters and $300/pair 9-pin tubes.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> $33 delivered isn't bad at all for a pair.  Just commit to yourself that you'll hang here or the Lyr 3 Tube Roller's thread.  If you mistakenly wander over to the Lyr Tube Rollers thread (different than the Lyr 3 thread), you'll find yourself spending your mortgage payment on adapters and $300/pair 9-pin tubes.


This is true!  I tried to stay away from the Lyr Tube Rollers thread, but got sucked in a while ago, and my tube collection doubled.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 23, 2019)

+1

Take it from me -- stay far, far away!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 11, 2019)

bcowen said:


> $33 delivered isn't bad at all for a pair.  Just commit to yourself that you'll hang here or the Lyr 3 Tube Roller's thread.  If you mistakenly wander over to the Lyr Tube Rollers thread (different than the Lyr 3 thread), you'll find yourself spending your mortgage payment on adapters and $300/pair 9-pin tubes.


Just got them in and am just getting use to expecting the unexpected...not the Frankensteins, at least one of them for sure not a Franken, sharp edged mica.  And not a pair as mentioned before, I misread the description. And these being my very first 7N7 tubes..I honestly don't know if the top is flat enough to be considered a Franken, so to be safe..the search continues! (still waiting for the adapter)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 11, 2019)

The one on the left is a Frankie.  The one on the right appears that it might not be a Frankie.  The bottom mica on the right appears to be more of a rounded-off rectangle mica while the one on the left is much more oval -- a tell-tale sign of a true Frankie.  Of course, it could just be the pic angle on the right tube.

BTW -- Enjoy.  The Frankie is a very nice tube.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Just got them in and am just getting use to expecting the unexpected...not the Frankensteins, at least one of them for sure not a Franken, sharp edged mica.  And not a pair as mentioned before, I misread the description. And these being my very first 7N7 tubes..I honestly don't know if the top is flat enough to be considered a Franken, so to be safe..the search continues! (still waiting for the adapter)



What @Ripper2860 said.     Genuine Frankie on the left, and a Frankimposter on the right.  This may sound utterly silly, but the difference in sound between the genuine Frankie and any other tall bottle 7N7 is quite apparent. Be sure to clean the tube pins really well even if they look clean visibly. With the much smaller contact area (compared to the pins of a 6SN7), getting those pins squeaky clean is important. If you haven't done that before, good 'ol isopropyl alcohol (but _not_ rubbing alcohol) and a pipe cleaner are cheap and work great.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> The one on the left is a Frankie.  The one on the right appears that it might not be a Frankie.  The bottom mica on the right appears to be more of a rounded-off rectangle mica while the one on the left is much more oval -- a tell-tale sign of a true Frankie.  Of course, it could just be the pic angle on the right tube.
> 
> BTW -- Enjoy.  The Frankie is a very nice tube.





bcowen said:


> What @Ripper2860 said.     Genuine Frankie on the left, and a Frankimposter on the right.  This may sound utterly silly, but the difference in sound between the genuine Frankie and any other tall bottle 7N7 is quite apparent. Be sure to clean the tube pins really well even if they look clean visibly. With the much smaller contact area (compared to the pins of a 6SN7), getting those pins squeaky clean is important. If you haven't done that before, good 'ol isopropyl alcohol (but _not_ rubbing alcohol) and a pipe cleaner are cheap and work great.


Thanks for the confirmation guys, and clean the pins....copy, will do that right now. I have some time still till the adapter gets in (this time I grabbed one from Bulgaria!) And am really anxious and excited how this might play out, will have some wine and Cannonball Adderly (Somethin' Else) joining the party.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 11, 2019)

double post


----------



## attmci

Anyone want a TS 6f8g for $300? Seems a new dealer is born.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/312765672056?ul_noapp=true


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Anyone want a TS 6f8g for $300? Seems a new dealer is born.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/312765672056?ul_noapp=true


Can't you get those for under $100? Or at $100!?


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Can't you get those for under $100? Or at $100!?


The tube is overpriced. Then there are TS round plate and flat plate versions of the same tube. The round one costs more than the other.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Anyone want a TS 6f8g for $300? Seems a new dealer is born.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/312765672056?ul_noapp=true



ROFL!!  At least he has all positive feedback.  Both of them.


----------



## attmci (Sep 12, 2019)

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  At least he has all positive feedback.  Both of them.


He has no idea what he is doing.

His other listing is a reasonable deal.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-matching...554680?hash=item48d2479ff8:g:z5YAAOSwispdea5z


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

I need some help with the two tubes in the pictures.  I acquired them in my quest for the ultimate 6NS7 tube.  I am looking for information and value for them. Or if someone is interested in them I would sell them for a fair price.

   Thanks
2019_0908_113242_001.jpg

2019_0908_113548_002.jpg


----------



## sennfan83261 (Sep 14, 2019)

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> I need some help with the two tubes in the pictures.  I acquired them in my quest for the ultimate 6NS7 tube.  I am looking for information and value for them. Or if someone is interested in them I would sell them for a fair price.
> 
> Thanks
> 2019_0908_113242_001.jpg
> ...


The Sylvania looks like a 6SN7GT, early '50s flat plates.  The three digit date code should be on the black base: year-week with the year being the first digit.  Not my favorite Sylvania 6SN7GT's for my Darkvoice 336SE, as I think the bad boys (early to mid 1952 T-plate three holes), early '50s 6SN7GT chrome domes, and the early '50 2-hole T-plates sound better than them with that amp.  Hell, I like Sylvania's early-mid '50s 6SN7GTA's better than the two early '50 6SN7GT flat plates in my possession.  Overall, they're pretty good, but there's better from that manufacturer.  If used, I would pay $15-20 for one of those flat plates.  Typically, I pass them for the others that I mentioned.

As for the CBS 6SN7GTB, I don't know since I don't have any but they seem to be plentiful and cheap.


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> The Sylvania looks like a 6SN7GT, early '50s flat plates.  The three digit date code should be on the black base: year-week with the year being the first digit.  Not my favorite Sylvania 6SN7GT's for my Darkvoice 336SE, as I think the bad boys (early to mid 1952 T-plate three holes), early '50s chrome domes, and the early '50 2-hole T-plates sound better than them with that amp.  Hell, I like Sylvania's early-mid '50s 6SN7GTA's better than the two early '50 6SN7GT flat plates in my possession.  Overall, they're pretty good, but there's better from that manufacturer.  If used, I would pay $15 for one of those flat plates at most.  Typically, I pass them for the others I mentioned.
> 
> As for the CBS 6SN7GTB, I don't know since I don't have any but they seem to be plentiful and cheap.



The CBS 6SN7GT (not to be confused with the CBS/Hytron 5692) is a decent sounding tube. But just decent -- nothing special.  Relatively speaking, it's a $20 tube in NOS condition.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 13, 2019)

Would a 6CG7 tube work with an ECC83 to 6SN7 adapter? I got the ECC83 adapter to use with a 12AT7 tube a while back, so wondering if a 9 pin adapter is a 9 pin adapter or just get a 6CG7 to 6SN7  adapterto be safe.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Would a 6CG7 tube work with an ECC83 to 6SN7 adapter? I got the ECC83 adapter to use with a 12AU7 tube a while back, so wondering if a 9 pin adapter is a 9 pin adapter or just get a 6CG7 to 6SN7  adapterto be safe.


No. Wrong pinout . A 6cg7 has the pinout of a 6922. Better to get the right adapter


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 13, 2019)

Keno18 said:


> No. Wrong pinout . A 6cg7 has the pinout of a 6922. Better to get the right adapter


That explains a lot...thank you. (I meant 12AT7) so have that adapter on order, thanks.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That explains a lot...thank you. (I meant 12AT7) so have that adapter on order, thanks.



@Keno18 is correct (of course).  The 12AU7/12AX7/12AT7 all have the same pinout, just different gain levels. To adapt for a 6SN7 socket, pin 9 is put into play to run those tubes at 6 volts. The 6CG7 has no pin 9 connection. 







Download the TDSL program at the link below.  Hasn't been updated in quite some time but is still a very handy program for getting tube info. The data sheet links tab will take you directly to web pages with copies of the original spec sheets.  Some of the links go to nonexistent pages now, but most still work.

http://www.duncanamps.com/tdslpe/


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 17, 2019)

So is it weird I enjoyed (more) the JAN Sylvania 7N7 over the Philco (Franken) 7N7?  Maybe I need to let these tubes settle in before judging, the short bottle GE 7N7 has some spark to it, and the Philco 7N7 with the meanest slam, (BAss) , to me the Sylvania combined both evenly. What do I know,


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 17, 2019)

That GE sure looks like a Sylvania.  The V-angled plates are VERY similar to Sylvania 6SN7's I've seen.

As for you liking the Sylvie better than Frankie -- there's a lot to be said for Synergy, HP sound profile, and personal preference.  Part of the fun is finding the tube that suits what you like and all else be damned!!  

I've found that while I like Frankie, I like the Lansdale Frankies best.  I own a Sylvie 7N7 with a middle support rod between the plates (similar to 6SN7W) and it fares as well or maybe better than non-Lansdale Frankies and darn close to the Lansdales.  The Lansdales and center support rod Sylvie just have a bit more bottom-end punch, air and top-end extension, IMHO w/ my setup, ears and music preferences.

Don't even get me started on Brimar 6SN7GTs.


----------



## LoryWiv

Speaking of Brimar, I believe they are now making a new production "Brimar Thermionics" 6SN7. Has anyone given it a listen?


----------



## Odin412

LoryWiv said:


> Speaking of Brimar, I believe they are now making a new production "Brimar Thermionics" 6SN7. Has anyone given it a listen?



Interesting! I tried to order one, but there was no shipping option to the US. I sent a them message to find out more. I think it's good that more new-production tubes are coming to market. After all, the supply of vintage tubes is finite and at some point all vintage tubes will either have burned out or been scooped up by obsessive hoarders.


----------



## JKDJedi

Odin412 said:


> Interesting! I tried to order one, but there was no shipping option to the US. I sent a them message to find out more. I think it's good that more new-production tubes are coming to market. After all, the supply of vintage tubes is finite and at some point all vintage tubes will either have burned out or been scooped up by obsessive hoarders.


not in our lifetime


----------



## JKDJedi

Anybody else Deoxit here?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> So is it weird I enjoyed (more) the JAN Sylvania 7N7 over the Philco (Franken) 7N7?  Maybe I need to let these tubes settle in before judging, the short bottle GE 7N7 has some spark to it, and the Philco 7N7 with the meanest slam, (BAss) , to me the Sylvania combined both evenly. What do I know,



Yes, it would be very weird if you enjoyed a tube that was actually made by GE.     Fortunately that one was made by Sylvania. Most likely the Philco was too. 

But as much as it pains me to say it, @Ripper2860 is right on with the synergy thing. If it sounds good to you, that's all that matters.  We beat up on GE tubes a lot because a lot of them sound terrible.  They probably made some good sounding ones along the way by mistake, but that's a needle in a haystack kinda thing.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Anybody else Deoxit here?



I order it by the 55 gallon drum.  Cheaper by the ounce that way.    I do NOT like the residue DeOxit leaves behind, so on loctal pins I'll let it sit for 5 minutes or so and then scrub it off (along with whatever contaminants come with it) with isopropyl alcohol.  But that's just the way I go about it....


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Yes, it would be very weird if you enjoyed a tube that was actually made by GE.     Fortunately that one was made by Sylvania. Most likely the Philco was too.
> 
> But as much as it pains me to say it, @Ripper2860 is right on with the synergy thing. If it sounds good to you, that's all that matters.  We beat up on GE tubes a lot because a lot of them sound terrible.  They probably made some good sounding ones along the way by mistake, but that's a needle in a haystack kinda thing.


Makes sense! These so u nd incredible by the way, huge headroom and so life like, Best buy so far.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Yes, it would be very weird if you enjoyed a tube that was actually made by GE.     Fortunately that one was made by Sylvania. Most likely the Philco was too.
> 
> But as much as it pains me to say it, @Ripper2860 is right on with the synergy thing. If it sounds good to you, that's all that matters.  We beat up on GE tubes a lot because a lot of them sound terrible.  They probably made some good sounding ones along the way by mistake, but that's a needle in a haystack kinda thing.



I am so glad to hear that.  I have tried a few GE tubes also, but have never come across one that i liked or sounded half way decent.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I am so glad to hear that.  I have tried a few GE tubes also, but have never come across one that i liked or sounded half way decent.


I concur, sold all of mine (6SN7 GE) last week . .


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 20, 2019)

I can't say in words how excited I am to finally have in my hands ...the Bad Boys. (Good Boys),
Been asking and learning on this thread, and everyone's input on how to spot a goodie helped a lot in my find. Stoked


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I can't say in words how excited I am to finally have in my hands ...the Bad Boys. (Good Boys),
> Been asking and learning on this thread, and everyone's input on how to spot a goodie helped a lot in my find. Stoked



Awesome!  But just from the visual appearance it looks like they probably test bad. I'll be happy to test them for you and if they do in fact test bad, I can toss them in the trash here and not waste the money on return shipping. I just always try to be helpful.  

Seriously, those look _*really*_ nice.  Have you had a chance to give them a listen yet?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Awesome!  But just from the visual appearance it looks like they probably test bad. I'll be happy to test them for you and if they do in fact test bad, I can toss them in the trash here and not waste the money on return shipping. I just always try to be helpful.
> 
> Seriously, those look _*really*_ nice.  Have you had a chance to give them a listen yet?


   thanks, yes for a little bit last night, some Led Zeppelin. Any preference on 6as7 tubes to mate with the Baddy? (So I almost prefer the 7N7) but am holding out on true confessions until these all settle in!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> thanks, yes for a little bit last night, some Led Zeppelin. Any preference on 6as7 tubes to mate with the Baddy? (So I almost prefer the 7N7) but am holding out on true confessions until these all settle in!



Sorry, but I have no experience with 6AS7's at all.  Never had an OTL amp....


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> Sorry, but I have no experience with 6AS7's at all.  Never had an OTL amp....


I have the Feliks-Audio Elise OTL and favorite 6AS7G equivalent is the Tung Sol 7236, excellent stage and detail although perhaps a bit "clinical." I've heard great things about Tung Sol 5998's as well, tend to be pricier but I just scored a pair and will be testing soon. Of course with DV instead of Elise and different drivers, YMMV but thought I'd share what I've learned thus far.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sorry, but I have no experience with 6AS7's at all.  Never had an OTL amp....


WHat!? Get one!


----------



## OctavianH

LoryWiv said:


> I have the Feliks-Audio Elise OTL and favorite 6AS7G equivalent is the Tung Sol 7236, excellent stage and detail although perhaps a bit "clinical." I've heard great things about Tung Sol 5998's as well, tend to be pricier but I just scored a pair and will be testing soon. Of course with DV instead of Elise and different drivers, YMMV but thought I'd share what I've learned thus far.



I have no idea what genres you like, but in my case with rock music the combo of RCA VT-231 + Tung Sol 7236 is a killer combo. However, it is not a clean sound, it is a veiled one, a muddy one, but it has exactly the veil and distortion you need for electric guitar. This kicks ass on heavy metal or stuff like that.


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> I have the Feliks-Audio Elise OTL and favorite 6AS7G equivalent is the Tung Sol 7236, excellent stage and detail although perhaps a bit "clinical." I've heard great things about Tung Sol 5998's as well, tend to be pricier but I just scored a pair and will be testing soon. Of course with DV instead of Elise and different drivers, YMMV but thought I'd share what I've learned thus far.


Yes the 7236 are fast tubes, 5998 more laid back compared to the 7236. Wow a pair for the Elise.. $$$, nice find! If I ever upgrade the Darkone it might just be the Elise.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> Yes the 7236 are fast tubes, 5998 more laid back compared to the 7236. Wow a pair for the Elise.. $$$, nice find! If I ever upgrade the Darkone it might just be the Elise.


Got a great deal on some Elise tubes from a fellow Head-Fi'er whose rolled on...love this community.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> WHat!? Get one!



Nah, I'm kinda waiting on the right deal for a single-ended 300B headphone amp.  Transformers pretty much required.


----------



## LoryWiv

GOTL.......I am happy with Elise but the GOTL folk swear by it.


----------



## LoryWiv

OctavianH said:


> I have no idea what genres you like, but in my case with rock music the combo of RCA VT-231 + Tung Sol 7236 is a killer combo. However, it is not a clean sound, it is a veiled one, a muddy one, but it has exactly the veil and distortion you need for electric guitar. This kicks ass on heavy metal or stuff like that.


That is so interesting, @OctavianH. I am listening to the TS 7236 as I type with RCA 1948 JAN 6SN7 gray glass (very similar to VT-231) and don't find them veiled at all. In fact, I may swap the 7236 for 5998's to add a touch more bass warmth, although I hope not to lose much detail. Just reminds us that so much is system dependent. Thanks for all you contribute here and on the Elise thread, BTW. I have learned a lot from you!


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> That is so interesting, @OctavianH. I am listening to the TS 7236 as I type with RCA 1948 JAN 6SN7 gray glass (very similar to VT-231) and don't find them veiled at all. In fact, I may swap the 7236 for 5998's to add a touch more bass warmth, although I hope not to lose much detail. Just reminds us that so much is system dependent. Thanks for all you contribute here and on the Elise thread, BTW. I have learned a lot from you!


Don't forget the headphones.... And according to sennfan83261 you haven't lived till you tried the CF8G VT-99 ... I kinda agree.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Don't forget the headphones.... And according to sennfan83261 you haven't lived till you tried the CF8G VT-99 ... I kinda agree.



Yes the 6F8Gs/VT-99s are awesome.  I enthusiastically agree...Sennfan83261 has made me a believer in these tubes, and I doubt I could ever go back to the 6SN7s save for the RCA Gray Glass and Tung Sol Mouse Ears.


----------



## JazzVinyl

LoryWiv said:


> GOTL.......I am happy with Elise but the GOTL folk swear by it.



Elise is a nice amp too.  Biggest problem I had with mine was heat.  I wish the designers had included a small fan to circulate air below the deck.  If your willing to point a small fan towards her while on, she will be happier in the long run. 

Lots of tube combos sound good in Elise.  Do try C3g’s 7N7 and 6N7’s.   A pair of 1940’s Visseaux 6N7G’s and 6H13C or 5998’s as powers were sublime in Elise.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> I order it by the 55 gallon drum.  Cheaper by the ounce that way.    I do NOT like the residue DeOxit leaves behind, so on loctal pins I'll let it sit for 5 minutes or so and then scrub it off (along with whatever contaminants come with it) with isopropyl alcohol.  But that's just the way I go about it....




I think you were joking...55 gallon drum of Deoxit?

Is there a link to the product...I'd like to check out the price first


----------



## cddc (Sep 24, 2019)

I normally just cleanse pins with tissues. In most cases it worked just fine. Unless there's too much rust, I use sandpaper or blade.

I prefer physical method to chemical method...LOL


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 25, 2019)

Have these on their way, a bit of an impulse purchase from Upscale Audio to use in my Feliks Elise. All Upscale notes is that they are early Russian, found in a cave in Brazil, intriguing but not very specific. Can anyone help me ID their make / year of production?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 25, 2019)

That's a 60's flat-plate Foton.  Don't be surprised if the markings on the glass are non-existent when you get the tube.  Seems uncle Kevin likes to vigorously clean the glass with the markings typically falling victim to his anal retentive ways!  

** I purchased one from Upscale myself and mine came devoid of markings.  It sounds pretty nice in my Lyr 3, but I must say that I do prefer the 50's ribbed version a bit better.  Pairing and Synergy are key however and it may may be killer tube in your Feliks!!


----------



## triggsviola

LoryWiv said:


> Have these on their way, a bit of an impulse purchase from Upscale Audio to use in my Feliks Elise.. All Upscale notes is that they are early Russian, found in a cave in Brazil, intriguing but not very specific. Can anyone help me ID their make / year of production?



I love these tubes! I’ve got two in my Euforia and one in my Vali. I found them to be very well-balanced (not too gooey, not too bright) and sound as good as tubes that are way more expensive (at least the ones I’ve tried).


----------



## LoryWiv

Thanks @Ripper2860 for the quick ID, and the insider knowledge about our friend Mr. Deal. Does he clean the pins as well or should I plan to do so when I receive them?

@triggsviola I hope they place nice with my Elise as drivers. I will pair them with either Tung Sol 5998's or 7236's. What powers did you pair them with in Euforia?


----------



## meomap

LoryWiv said:


> Have these on their way, a bit of an impulse purchase from Upscale Audio to use in my Feliks Elise.. All Upscale notes is that they are early Russian, found in a cave in Brazil, intriguing but not very specific. Can anyone help me ID their make / year of production?


I decided to go with this instead of yours.
Changed my mind at last moment.
Ordered one tube for my ALO Studio Six.
Will use it with Utopia and AFC.
Hope, it's worth it.
The amp designer said only worthy upgrade section of tubes in this amp are 6SN7 and 6V6 section.


----------



## LoryWiv

meomap said:


> I decided to go with this instead of yours.
> Changed my mind at last moment.
> Ordered one tube for my ALO Studio Six.
> Will use it with Utopia and AFC.
> ...


Nice, @meomap, let us know how you like this tube with your gear. For interest, where did you source it from?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 25, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @Ripper2860 for the quick ID, and the insider knowledge about our friend Mr. Deal. Does he clean the pins as well or should I plan to do so when I receive them?



Mine arrived with squeaky-clean and shiny pins.  I felt no need to clean them.


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> Mine arrived with squeaky-clean and shiny pins.  I felt no need to clean them.


Ah, the benefits of anal-compulsive behavior...


----------



## meomap

LoryWiv said:


> Nice, @meomap, let us know how you like this tube with your gear. For interest, where did you source it from?


If you meant bought from than Upscale Audio.


----------



## LoryWiv

meomap said:


> If you meant bought from than Upscale Audio.


Nice...hope they sound great.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> I think you were joking...55 gallon drum of Deoxit?
> 
> Is there a link to the product...I'd like to check out the price first



Of course I was joking. As much as a little bottle of the stuff costs, I'd have to take out a 2nd mortgage for a 55 gallon drum.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Have these on their way, a bit of an impulse purchase from Upscale Audio to use in my Feliks Elise. All Upscale notes is that they are early Russian, found in a cave in Brazil, intriguing but not very specific. Can anyone help me ID their make / year of production?



That particular tube is a 1965.  The '60's are nice sounding tubes, but bettered by the '50's. Not huge differences between the '51 - '56 rib plates and the '57 - '59 smooth plates, but I think the ribbed versions are still a bit better.  Note that the pin soldering on these can be questionable, whether it was poor workmanship or poor quality solder that has degraded over time.  On the plus side if you bought them from Upscale you should get a properly working tube out of the box.


----------



## triggsviola

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @Ripper2860 for the quick ID, and the insider knowledge about our friend Mr. Deal. Does he clean the pins as well or should I plan to do so when I receive them?
> 
> @triggsviola I hope they place nice with my Elise as drivers. I will pair them with either Tung Sol 5998's or 7236's. What powers did you pair them with in Euforia?



I’m still using the stock 6AS7G powers. I’ll get the 5998 soon.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Of course I was joking. As much as a little bottle of the stuff costs, I'd have to take out a 2nd mortgage for a 55 gallon drum.



True, the thing is costly for such a small bottle or tube.

I remember I saw 2 types of Deoxit. Jedi just posted one packed in small glass bottle, I think it is for cleansing only. The other type of Deoxit is packed in 2 tiny tubes (one tube for de-oxidation and one tube for protection).

Which one do you guys use?


----------



## cddc

I got a shaky shaky Tung Sol 6SN7GT, when I hold the base, the glass bottle can be swayed.

I read you guys recommended nail polish to stick a peeled off base back to tube. Not sure if nail polish works for the shaky shaky base? Or I should use some glue?

I don't know how to clean the dust between the glass bottle and base, should I just fill the gap with some nail polish regardless?


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> True, the thing is costly for such a small bottle or tube.
> 
> I remember I saw 2 types of Deoxit. Jedi just posted one packed in small glass bottle, I think it is for cleansing only. The other type of Deoxit is packed in 2 tiny tubes (one tube for de-oxidation and one tube for protection).
> 
> Which one do you guys use?



I use the D5 in both spray and liquid form (depending on the application) and I also like the Fader Lube spray (safe for pots that have plastic contacts or wipers).  I think the trick with either though is to use it very sparingly. I think many people just hose stuff down with it and that ends up causing more problems than it solves.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> I got a shaky shaky Tung Sol 6SN7GT, when I hold the base, the glass bottle can be swayed.
> 
> I read you guys recommended nail polish to stick a peeled off base back to tube. Not sure if nail polish works for the shaky shaky base? Or I should use some glue?
> 
> I don't know how to clean the dust between the glass bottle and base, should I just fill the gap with some nail polish regardless?



I like this best for regluing bottles to bases. I'm sure there's lots of different things that work as well, this is just what I use. Kind of a super glue on steroids.  A drop placed at three points equidistant around the perimeter between the glass and the base works great, and I've yet to have a tube come loose after using this. Just let it dry overnight. Even though it's supposed to dry quickly, you'll have some (hopefully) seep between the glass and the base and that needs longer to cure. Best also to clean the spots where you'll be applying it. A Q-tip dipped in isopropyl alcohol (not rubbing alcohol though) works great -- just scrub with that on the two surfaces and get as much crud out of the crack between them as possible without damaging the tube.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DGZBFJM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## cddc (Sep 25, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I use the D5 in both spray and liquid form (depending on the application) and I also like the Fader Lube spray (safe for pots that have plastic contacts or wipers).  I think the trick with either though is to use it very sparingly. I think many people just hose stuff down with it and that ends up causing more problems than it solves.






bcowen said:


> I like this best for regluing bottles to bases. I'm sure there's lots of different things that work as well, this is just what I use. Kind of a super glue on steroids.  A drop placed at three points equidistant around the perimeter between the glass and the base works great, and I've yet to have a tube come loose after using this. Just let it dry overnight. Even though it's supposed to dry quickly, you'll have some (hopefully) seep between the glass and the base and that needs longer to cure. Best also to clean the spots where you'll be applying it. A Q-tip dipped in isopropyl alcohol (not rubbing alcohol though) works great -- just scrub with that on the two surfaces and get as much crud out of the crack between them as possible without damaging the tube.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DGZBFJM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1



Excellent recommendations and tips! Much appreciate it!


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Don't forget the headphones.... And according to sennfan83261 you haven't lived till you tried the CF8G VT-99 ... I kinda agree.


Damn, how is that Western Electric 421A+6F8G/VT-99 (Sylvania?) pairing?


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 26, 2019)

sennfan83261 said:


> Damn, how is that Western Electric 421A+6F8G/VT-99 (Sylvania?) pairing?


 It's a great pairing Sennfan.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> That particular tube is a 1965.  The '60's are nice sounding tubes, but bettered by the '50's. Not huge differences between the '51 - '56 rib plates and the '57 - '59 smooth plates, but I think the ribbed versions are still a bit better.  Note that the pin soldering on these can be questionable, whether it was poor workmanship or poor quality solder that has degraded over time.  On the plus side if you bought them from Upscale you should get a properly working tube out of the box.


So a 1953 Foton might be a good buy.. ?


----------



## cebuboy

LoryWiv said:


> Have these on their way, a bit of an impulse purchase from Upscale Audio to use in my Feliks Elise. All Upscale notes is that they are early Russian, found in a cave in Brazil, intriguing but not very specific. Can anyone help me ID their make / year of production?


That is a ‘65 Foton basing from the picture. You can get them for cheap from former Soviet Republics. Great price/performance. The ‘57 and below sounds nicer to my ears but is getting hard to find especially from a reputable seller.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 26, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That particular tube is a 1965.  The '60's are nice sounding tubes, but bettered by the '50's. Not huge differences between the '51 - '56 rib plates and the '57 - '59 smooth plates, but I think the ribbed versions are still a bit better.  Note that the pin soldering on these can be questionable, whether it was poor workmanship or poor quality solder that has degraded over time.  On the plus side if you bought them from Upscale you should get a properly working tube out of the box.


Good eyes, @bcowen, I missed that entirely. I appreciate it! And thanks @cebuboy for confirming. They should arrive by tomorrow and I'm excite to test them out!


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 26, 2019)

It's New Tube Thursday!!


----------



## cddc

A question regarding tube cleansing: is there a coating on the tube pins, or is it just plain vanilla zinc (or steel?) ?

If there is a coating, then using sandpaper or blade to clean pins could be problematic.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> A question regarding tube cleansing: is there a coating on the tube pins, or is it just plain vanilla zinc (or steel?) ?
> 
> If there is a coating, then using sandpaper or blade to clean pins could be problematic.


Thinking it's plain vanilla, I scrape mine with pocket knife.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Thinking it's plain vanilla, I scrape mine with pocket knife.



I think so too, but not 100% sure about it.

It's softer than the blade, and can be scraped off easily, so I don't think it's steel, mostly likely it's plain vanilla zinc.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I think so too, but not 100% sure about it.
> 
> It's softer than the blade, and can be scraped off easily, so I don't think it's steel, mostly likely it's plain vanilla zinc.


That's where the Deoxit comes in, adds a coating


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> That's where the Deoxit comes in, adds a coating




It is a really good idea!

Does the glass bottle one you quoted earlier has a coating component other than de-oxidation and cleansing?


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> It is a really good idea!
> 
> Does the glass bottle one you quoted earlier has a coating component other than de-oxidation and cleansing?


The bottle I posted just does the coating, cleaning with alcohol like the others posted (I use a q tip)and scraping with knife works for me for cleaning duties.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> That's where the Deoxit comes in, adds a coating


Why is adding a coating a good idea...does it improve conductivity / some other sonic virtue?


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Why is adding a coating a good idea...does it improve conductivity / some other sonic virtue?


According to Deoxit.........YES!


----------



## cddc

Adding sonic virtue - I double it, maybe snake oil does ... 

Preventing future oxidation for sure!

But then there is a coating, a coating, a coating. Is the chemical coating conductive?  I think it should be conductive.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 27, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> Have these on their way, a bit of an impulse purchase from Upscale Audio to use in my Feliks Elise. All Upscale notes is that they are early Russian, found in a cave in Brazil, intriguing but not very specific. Can anyone help me ID their make / year of production?


Hmmmm, these arrived from Upscale Audio. I'm evaluating their sound and thus far pleased. The caveat is that one of the tube's filaments glows brightly and the other very dimly, a very visible difference. I swapped sockets and it is clearly the tube, not the socket. I did order them in  driver / buffer grade as I'm using them as drivers, so didn't expect a  perfect match, but the difference visually  is striking, not sure what to make of it. Sonically, I do not notice any channel volume imbalance nor extraneous noise from either tube, but wondering if this is "normal" or warrants asking for an exchange.


----------



## cddc

LoryWiv said:


> Hmmmm, these arrived from Upscale Audio. I'm evaluating their sound and thus far pleased. The caveat is that one of the tube's filaments glows brightly and the other very dimly, a very visible difference. I swapped sockets and it is clearly the tube, not the socket. I did order them in  driver / buffer grade as I'm using them as drivers, so didn't expect a  perfect match, but the difference visually  is striking, not sure what to make of it. Sonically, I do not notice any channel volume imbalance nor extraneous noise from either tube, but wondering if this is "normal" or warrants asking for an exchange.




Here is a quote from the signature of some top guru (a very nice gentleman) here on HF:

"There are few pleasures as simple, and wonderful as music - *Craig Uthus  *If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, you've measured the wrong thing - *Daniel R. von Recklinghausen*  My goal is to make a amp that sounds great with the cheapest tubes - *2359glenn*"


----------



## cddc

I feel you...it is really annoying to have a tube with visible difference between 2 sections. But the more important thing is that it should sound good and balanced.

If you're really unhappy with the difference, you should contact Upscale for an exchange or refund.


----------



## cddc

I am trying to figure out a scientific explanation for it:

A filament glows brighter than the other, which means it has higher temperature than the other. Now the function of filament is to heat up the cathode so that the later can emit more electrons. So the difference in temperature could lead to different emission levels. If you have a tube tester, you can test the emission levels of the 2 sections (but I think most of us don't have it). 

Normally difference of emission or mu within 10% is considered matching. That being said, a difference above 10% could sometimes just be fine and inaudible.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> I am trying to figure out a scientific explanation for it:
> 
> A filament glows brighter than the other, which means it has higher temperature than the other. Now the function of filament is to heat up the cathode so that the later can emit more electrons. So the difference in temperature could lead to different emission levels. If you have a tube tester, you can test the emission levels of the 2 sections (but I think most of us don't have it).
> 
> Normally difference of emission or mu within 10% is considered matching. That being said, a difference above 10% could sometimes just be fine and inaudible.



The usual thing happening here is that the filament is sticking a bit higher above the top of the plate(s) in one tube than the other.  The absolute “brightness” is the same, it’s just that one appears brighter because there is more of it that’s visible.  If the tubes are sonically the same, then there’s no issue other than the visual appearance.   If that appearance is objectionable, Upscale is normally very accommodating about sending a replacement .


----------



## LoryWiv

I appreciate all of the feedback about difference in tube filaments glowing at different brightness intensity. if it is just that one filament sticks out from plate more, I'll try to damp down my OCD and live with it. Not with the amp. right now but will check on this when I am home and report back.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> I appreciate all of the feedback about difference in tube filaments glowing at different brightness intensity. if it is just that one filament sticks out from plate more, I'll try to damp down my OCD and live with it. Not with the amp. right now but will check on this when I am home and report back.



Just look closely at the internals of both tubes.  If you see some (or some more) wires sticking up above the plates in one tube more than the other, then that is likely the tube that ‘glows’ more brightly.  Again though, if you got those from Upscale they will quite likely resolve any concerns or issues you have without any trouble — just email them and let them know.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> Just look closely at the internals of both tubes.  If you see some (or some more) wires sticking up above the plates in one tube more than the other, then that is likely the tube that ‘glows’ more brightly.  Again though, if you got those from Upscale they will quite likely resolve any concerns or issues you have without any trouble — just email them and let them know.


Yes, I think that is the essential issue, in fact from top view the one that glows less below the MICA is brigher atop the tube...I've decided not to worry about it as no sonic difference.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 28, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, I think that is the essential issue, in fact from top view the one that glows less below the MICA is brigher atop the tube...I've decided not to worry about it as no sonic difference.


I have a bunch of perfectly matched pairs of tubes, that don't glow with the same brightness.  I always prefer a pair that shines the same, but often I just live with the ones that don't.  My pair of Mullard CV2492 that I am currently using in my LP, don't shine the same, but they sound incredible.  Just to echo what others have said, if they test and sound good, try not to let the look bother you.  I am as OCD as it gets, and symmetry is a big one for me, so I struggle with this, big time.  However, once I start getting into the music and how good it sounds, I soon get over the looks, everytime.


----------



## attmci (Sep 28, 2019)

@LoryWiv I don't like that site. I know you probably purchased your amp from them.

They are still selling an old version of a headphone at the same price of the new version. Upgrade from old to new will cost $1750.

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/produc...yeLByCj1bZjXYNlWDeDtifAeKarBHeahoCYdgQAvD_BwE

If you like 6sn7gt, you should search the Eastbay everyday and you will get a pair of good ones cheap. First, you need to learn how to identify different brands of good tubes. Good luck with your tube rolling.


----------



## LoryWiv

attmci said:


> @LoryWiv I don't like that site. I know you probably purchased your amp from them.
> 
> They are still selling an old version of a headphone at the same price of the new version. Upgrade from old to new will cost $1750.
> 
> ...



I think Upscale has pro's and con's like most businesses, but their reps. at Canjam SoCal. allowed me a nice long audition and the FA Elise I bought was at a nice discount. They dealt with me fairly. I'm sure you're right some of the gear is overpriced, not sure yet if the tubes I bought from them are a keeper. As you correctly point out, I'm trying to learn more about tube ID but fleabay still seems a bit hit and miss in terms of seller integrity.

I'm also looking into 7N7's with adapter for 6SN7 sockets, inexpensive at JAC music although adapters get pricey. Thoughts on these?

Thanks, @attmci!


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> The usual thing happening here is that the filament is sticking a bit higher above the top of the plate(s) in one tube than the other.  The absolute “brightness” is the same, it’s just that one appears brighter because there is more of it that’s visible.  If the tubes are sonically the same, then there’s no issue other than the visual appearance.   If that appearance is objectionable, Upscale is normally very accommodating about sending a replacement .



Uneven brightness is indeed pretty common. 

I am normally on T-plates Syl 6SN7's and in most cases just can't see any glow from them. There were couple of times I thought they were dead tubes until I turned off all lights and began to notice their dim glow...

So last night I pulled out some flat-plates GE GTA/GTB and Brimar GT. They have filaments sticking out of top mica so I can see 2 red dots. I turned them on and carefully examined them, and did notice one tube had uneven brightness (like 40/60) despite sounding balanced. 

Though there could be uneven brightness caused by difference in filaments, I think your case is much more common.


----------



## cddc (Sep 28, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I order it by the 55 gallon drum.  Cheaper by the ounce that way.    I do NOT like the residue DeOxit leaves behind, so on loctal pins I'll let it sit for 5 minutes or so and then scrub it off (along with whatever contaminants come with it) with isopropyl alcohol.  But that's just the way I go about it....



A question about the coating by Deoxit: I know the contaminants taken off by Deoxit need to be cleaned, but is isopropyl alcohol going to remove the protective coating formed by Deoxit?

The oxidation is much better on 6SN7 pins than on 12AU7 pins in general...you can still see the silver color on most 6SN7 pins, but most 12AU7 pins are black or dark blue, look damn dirty. So I am thinking if it is okay to try WD40 for pin cleansing? I still have a can of WD40 (specialist, rust release) left over from last time when I was trying to replace the car battery by myself. I think WD40 can penetrate and dissolve the rust/oxide. It might be okay to spray some WD40 to the 12AU7 pins, then let it sit for a while and scrub it off with isopropyl alcohol. I don't expect coating from WD40, so using isopropyl alcohol to clean it is perfectly fine here.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> A question about the coating by Deoxit: I know the contaminants taken off by Deoxit need to be cleaned, but is isopropyl alcohol going to remove the protective coating formed by Deoxit?
> 
> The oxidation is much better on 6SN7 pins than on 12AU7 pins in general...you can still see the silver color on most 6SN7 pins, but most 12AU7 pins are black or dark blue, look damn dirty. So I am thinking if it is okay to try WD40 for pin cleansing? I still have a can of WD40 (specialist, rust release) left over from last time when I was trying to replace the car battery by myself. I think WD40 can penetrate and dissolve the rust/oxide. It might be okay to spray some WD40 to the 12AU7 pins, then let it sit for a while and scrub it off with isopropyl alcohol. I don't expect coating from WD40, so using isopropyl alcohol to clean it is perfectly fine here.


Take one for the team and let us know how it worked out!


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> I think Upscale has pro's and con's like most businesses, but their reps. at Canjam SoCal. allowed me a nice long audition and the FA Elise I bought was at a nice discount. They dealt with me fairly. I'm sure you're right some of the gear is overpriced, not sure yet if the tubes I bought from them are a keeper. As you correctly point out, I'm trying to learn more about tube ID but fleabay still seems a bit hit and miss in terms of seller integrity.
> 
> I'm also looking into 7N7's with adapter for 6SN7 sockets, inexpensive at JAC music although adapters get pricey. Thoughts on these?
> 
> Thanks, @attmci!


go to post #737 of this thread and read on..


----------



## JimL11

cddc said:


> A question about the coating by Deoxit: I know the contaminants taken off by Deoxit need to be cleaned, but is isopropyl alcohol going to remove the protective coating formed by Deoxit?
> 
> The oxidation is much better on 6SN7 pins than on 12AU7 pins in general...you can still see the silver color on most 6SN7 pins, but most 12AU7 pins are black or dark blue, look damn dirty. So I am thinking if it is okay to try WD40 for pin cleansing? I still have a can of WD40 (specialist, rust release) left over from last time when I was trying to replace the car battery by myself. I think WD40 can penetrate and dissolve the rust/oxide. It might be okay to spray some WD40 to the 12AU7 pins, then let it sit for a while and scrub it off with isopropyl alcohol. I don't expect coating from WD40, so using isopropyl alcohol to clean it is perfectly fine here.



A safe way to remove oxidation is to get a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser and shove the pins into it a few times. The Magic Eraser is an abrasive plastic and will scour the oxidation off without any adverse effects.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> go to post #737 of this thread and read on..


Ah. great pointer, thanks man!


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Take one for the team and let us know how it worked out!




Will do, I'm gonna sacrifice a GE or RCA 12AU7 in the worst case scenario...at least it's not expensive 

Or maybe it will turn out to be wonderful...


----------



## cddc

JimL11 said:


> A safe way to remove oxidation is to get a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser and shove the pins into it a few times. The Magic Eraser is an abrasive plastic and will scour the oxidation off without any adverse effects.



Will try that too...I did buy some Mr. Clean Magic Erasers for car wash long time ago, but somehow never used them. Need to find them out and give it a shot. The inner circle of the pins is hard to reach though...


----------



## JimL11

cddc said:


> Will try that too...I did buy some Mr. Clean Magic Erasers for car wash long time ago, but somehow never used them. Need to find them out and give it a shot. The inner circle of the pins is hard to reach though...



No need to overthink it, just hold the tube and shove the bottom right into the Eraser. With 7 and 9 pin miniature tubes, they just go right in up to the glass - a few times should clean all the pins at once. With octal tubes the Eraser gets deformed somewhat but it's not like the Eraser is a big expense.


----------



## cddc

JimL11 said:


> No need to overthink it, just hold the tube and shove the bottom right into the Eraser. With 7 and 9 pin miniature tubes, they just go right in up to the glass - a few times should clean all the pins at once. With octal tubes the Eraser gets deformed somewhat but it's not like the Eraser is a big expense.



Plug-and-play...simple as that 

I like it!


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Will do, I'm gonna sacrifice a GE or RCA 12AU7 in the worst case scenario...at least it's not expensive
> 
> Or maybe it will turn out to be wonderful...



Killing a GE is not a sacrifice. It's a gift to humanity in general.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Killing a GE is not a sacrifice. It's a gift to humanity in general.


 L M F A O !!!


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Ah. great pointer, thanks man!


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-7N7-7F...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 Strong 7N7 adapter..NOT like the CHiFi ones ...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 29, 2019)

cddc said:


> A question about the coating by Deoxit: I know the contaminants taken off by Deoxit need to be cleaned, but is isopropyl alcohol going to remove the protective coating formed by Deoxit?
> 
> The oxidation is much better on 6SN7 pins than on 12AU7 pins in general...you can still see the silver color on most 6SN7 pins, but most 12AU7 pins are black or dark blue, look damn dirty. So I am thinking if it is okay to try WD40 for pin cleansing? I still have a can of WD40 (specialist, rust release) left over from last time when I was trying to replace the car battery by myself. I think WD40 can penetrate and dissolve the rust/oxide. It might be okay to spray some WD40 to the 12AU7 pins, then let it sit for a while and scrub it off with isopropyl alcohol. I don't expect coating from WD40, so using isopropyl alcohol to clean it is perfectly fine here.



I guess it all depends on what your end goal is. If leaving a coating of the Deoxit in place as a preservative is the goal, then yes the alcohol will pretty much defeat that.  I use Deoxit just to clean as it seems to lift off crud and oxidation better than most anything else I've tried (short of using an abrasive like sandpaper or emery paper). I don't want any of it left on there when I'm done though, which is why I follow with alcohol. There's lots of contact conditioners and preservatives out there, and I use a conditioner in a couple places in my system. But when it comes to tube pins (and moreso tube sockets), my preference is just metal-to-metal with the two surfaces as clean as possible.  You can obviously clean tube pins at any point you want with relative ease, but if any of these conditioners or preservatives start to bake and crust onto the contacts of a tube socket, that becomes a much more difficult proposition to rectify.  I'm not suggesting there's a right or wrong approach to this, just relating what I do and why.

 I *do* like @JimL11 's suggestion of the magic eraser.  I've never tried using one for this purpose, but for 9-pin tubes especially that sounds like an awesome idea.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Killing a GE is not a sacrifice. It's a gift to humanity in general.



LOL ...I agree. So I tried three GE's  (two 12AU7's and one 6SN7GTB).

I cleaned all tubes first with isopropyl alcohol and Q-tips. The two 12AU7's before applying WD40 and Mr. Clean Eraser:



 




Then I sprayed some WD40 (penetrate specialist, rust release) to pins on the 12AU7 with lighter getter flash (this one seemed dirtier), and gave the pins a good scrub using Q-tip and WD40, followed by isopropyl alcohol. For the other 12AU7, I just shoved its pins into Mr. Clean Eraser multiple times (without WD40) until Mr. Clean became Mr. Holes... . And here's how they looked after cleansing:




I couldn't see any difference...had expected the black/blue/brown crud to be removed by WD40.


----------



## cddc (Sep 30, 2019)

After seeing no changes, I picked up a GE 6SN7 with dirty pins. Again, cleaned it first with isopropyl alcohol and Q-tips. And here's how it looked after alcohol and before WD40 (the bottom one):







And here's how it looked after WD40:





Some little improvement here, and I suspect the little improvement came from scrubbing instead of from WD40. I didn't see anything dissolved by WD40, the residual still looked pretty clean.

So pretty disappointed with WD40. It works on rusted nuts very well, but is of little use here. And it smells even after cleansing the pins with isopropyl alcohol afterwards.

I think I should try Deoxit next time as per @JKDJedi  and @bcowen.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> I guess it all depends on what your end goal is. If leaving a coating of the Deoxit in place as a preservative is the goal, then yes the alcohol will pretty much defeat that.  I use Deoxit just to clean as it seems to lift off crud and oxidation better than most anything else I've tried (short of using an abrasive like sandpaper or emery paper). I don't want any of it left on there when I'm done though, which is why I follow with alcohol. There's lots of contact conditioners and preservatives out there, and I use a conditioner in a couple places in my system. But when it comes to tube pins (and moreso tube sockets), my preference is just metal-to-metal with the two surfaces as clean as possible.  You can obviously clean tube pins at any point you want with relative ease, but if any of these conditioners or preservatives start to bake and crust onto the contacts of a tube socket, that becomes a much more difficult proposition to rectify.  I'm not suggesting there's a right or wrong approach to this, just relating what I do and why.
> 
> I *do* like @JimL11 's suggestion of the magic eraser.  I've never tried using one for this purpose, but for 9-pin tubes especially that sounds like an awesome idea.




Good points...for conditioners there is Deoxit Gold. But metal-to-metal contact should be the best.

I tried WD40 with little success, it didn't dissolve crud and oxide on pins. So I should try Deoxit next time.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> LOL ...I agree. So I tried three GE's  (two 12AU7's and one 6SN7GTB).
> 
> I cleaned all tubes first with isopropyl alcohol and Q-tips. The two 12AU7's before applying WD40 and Mr. Clean Eraser:
> 
> ...



That bluish-brown color is heat discoloration from melting the glass around the pins in the manufacturing process. One thing I know that will remove it: Blue Away.  Dumb expensive, but it works.  We use it at work for getting brown welding spots off of stainless.  But.....I can't say that I've heard any audible difference after using it on tube pins (and cleaning the excess off with alcohol) versus a good scrub with Deoxit and an alcohol rinse. Just makes the pins prettier.  Most are steel, so it's not like they'll be all bright and shiny...just less 'multicolored' looking afterwards.

https://simichrome.factoryoutletsto...category_id=29487&ci=eNkZZk2WiBmm7RKDz9Samg==


----------



## cddc

You are right, the bluish-brown discoloration should be the burns from melting the glass. Surprised to hear that there's indeed some solution to remove it. Learning something new is always good 

I don't really mind the discoloration on pins, all I need is a good contact between pins and sockets. So Deoxit should be good enough. Or if I really want to take the discoloration off, sandpaper should always work.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> You are right, the bluish-brown discoloration should be the burns from melting the glass. Surprised to hear that there's indeed some solution to remove it. Learning something new is always good
> 
> I don't really mind the discoloration on pins, all I need is a good contact between pins and sockets. So Deoxit should be good enough. Or if I really want to take the discoloration off, sandpaper should always work.



Emery paper works quite well, just kind of a PITA to use.  The Blue Away is much easier...a bottle of it appeared on my work desk at home a while back, and I have no idea where it came from.    I rarely go to the trouble of using it though as it just improves things visually...the Deoxit is plenty enough sonically.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Emery paper works quite well, just kind of a PITA to use.  The Blue Away is much easier...a bottle of it appeared on my work desk at home a while back, and I have no idea where it came from.    I rarely go to the trouble of using it though as it just improves things visually...the Deoxit is plenty enough sonically.



I was surfing internet yesterday and came across some post where lemon juice was recommended for cleaning pins on miniature tubes...soak pins in lemon juice for couple of hours and rinse

I happened to have a bottle of outdated lemon juice in my fridge...so my "beloved" GE 12AU7 has a new task ...will report back


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> I was surfing internet yesterday and came across some post where lemon juice was recommended for cleaning pins on miniature tubes...soak pins in lemon juice for couple of hours and rinse
> 
> I happened to have a bottle of outdated lemon juice in my fridge...so my "beloved" GE 12AU7 has a new task ...will report back



Haven't ever heard of that. Let us know how it turns out, and thanks for being the guinea pig (which seems to be my role most of the time).   
Worst case? The lemon juice completely dissolves the pins and the GE sounds no worse than it did before.


----------



## cddc

LOL....poor GE 

So here is the theory behind lemon juice from the post:

"It depends on the kind of "crud" being dealt with. Nasty stuff on the steel pins of 7 and 9 pin miniature tubes frequently responds to soaking in lemon juice for a few hours. Follow with a water flush and, finally, anhydrous isopropanol.

Lemon juice contains ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and citric acid. The ascorbate ion is a reducing agent, which turns Fe+3 into Fe+2. The citrate ion is a good complexing agent, which can bring otherwise sparingly soluble cations into solution.

Both citric and ascorbic acids are quite weak. They are quite slow in attacking elemental Iron. "


----------



## bcowen (Oct 3, 2019)

cddc said:


> LOL....poor GE
> 
> So here is the theory behind lemon juice from the post:
> 
> ...



OK, the chemistry went flying right over my head -- nothing has changed there since high school.  But I love the anhydrous isopropanol part.  I can get 99.9% (which is considered anhydrous) for $10.47 a quart, or get 99% for $2.82 quart, or go to the corner pharmacy and get 93% for $1.49 quart.  The portion that's less than 100% is just water.  I vote for the 99% 'cause Amazon will deliver it for free and that enhances my laziness consistency by avoiding the drive to the corner pharmacy.    Seriously, I have used the 99% for the ritualistic rinse step after ultrasonic cleaning of LP's, and it _does_ dry (evaporate) more quickly than the 93%. But I'm not sure reducing the drying time by perhaps a whole additional second with the 99.9% anhydrous stuff is worth spending over $10 for it.


----------



## cddc (Oct 3, 2019)

bcowen said:


> OK, the chemistry went flying right over my head -- nothing has changed there since high school.  But I love the anhydrous isopropanol part.  I can get 99.9% (which is considered anhydrous) for $10.47 a quart, or get 99% for $2.82 quart, or go to the corner pharmacy and get 93% for $1.49 quart.  The portion that's less than 100% is just water.  I vote for the 99% 'cause Amazon will deliver it for free and that enhances my laziness consistency by avoiding the drive to the corner pharmacy.    Seriously, I have used the 99% for the ritualistic rinse step after ultrasonic cleaning of LP's, and it _does_ dry (evaporate) more quickly than the 93%. But I'm not sure reducing the drying time by perhaps a whole additional second with the 99.9% anhydrous stuff is worth spending over $10 for it.



The extra $8 for 99.9% is definitely worth it IMO...I don't want any water left over on pins (thou it evaporates eventually), and a bottle of isopropyl alcohol can last many years for tube cleansing.

Unfortunately I only have the 99% one. I went to Walmart but could only find isopropyl alcohol up to 90%, then turned to a corner pharmacy and found the 99% one...thought it was the highest grade available in the market. Now I know I was wrong. Would have grabbed the 99.9% one


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> Seriously, I have used the 99% for the ritualistic rinse step after ultrasonic cleaning of LP's, and it _does_ dry (evaporate) more quickly than the 93%. But I'm not sure reducing the drying time by perhaps a whole additional second with the 99.9% anhydrous stuff is worth spending over $10 for it.


I too use an ultrasonic cleaner with a custom attachment to clean my vinyl (and then a VPI HW-17 to rinse/dry). I wonder if the ultrasonic machine can be used for cleaning the pins on tubes? Perhaps the tank could be filled with water to the correct level/height and the tube(s) could be attached securely somehow to the basket so that only the pins are in the ultrasonic tank/water.

Not sure I'd want the pins in the water for so long, but it might be worth a try on a cheap tube.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Multi-Ultr...lry-1-3-2L-3L-6L-10L-15L-22L-30L/202697154875

Or something smaller:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/600ml-Ultr...llery-Cleaning-Basket-Timer-Tank/143343425560

I currently use fine grit paper to sand the pins, and then 99% IPA to wipe/clean up.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> The extra $8 for 99.9% is definitely worth it IMO...I don't want any water left over on pins (thou it evaporates eventually), and a bottle of isopropyl alcohol can last many years for tube cleansing.
> 
> Unfortunately I only have the 99% one. I went to Walmart but could only find isopropyl alcohol up to 90%, then turned to a corner pharmacy and found the 99% one...thought it was the highest grade available in the market. Now I know I was wrong. Would have grabbed the 99.9% one



You can get 100% for about $60 a quart from a chemical supply house.  Why stop at 99.9%?


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> I too use an ultrasonic cleaner with a custom attachment to clean my vinyl (and then a VPI HW-17 to rinse/dry). I wonder if the ultrasonic machine can be used for cleaning the pins on tubes? Perhaps the tank could be filled with water to the correct level/height and the tube(s) could be attached securely somehow to the basket so that only the pins are in the ultrasonic tank/water.
> 
> Not sure I'd want the pins in the water for so long, but it might be worth a try on a cheap tube.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Multi-Ultr...lry-1-3-2L-3L-6L-10L-15L-22L-30L/202697154875
> ...



Interesting idea.  Not sure I'd want to try it on an octal.  Seems the fluid would migrate up into the base no matter how you immersed it in the tank. Certainly wouldn't do it with a Foton or Melz 6N8S / 1578 unless the pins had been resoldered first….what solder *is* in there would probably be laying at the bottom of your tank in tiny pieces. Could be worth a try on a 9-pin though, although I'm not sure what sonic advantage would occur over just a good cleaning with Deoxit and alcohol rinse. I have a few Philips ECG 6922's I'll try it on. There's no possible way to make that tube sound any worse, and who knows...maybe it would change it from high suckage to not as high suckage.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> You can get 100% for about $60 a quart from a chemical supply house.  Why stop at 99.9%?




Wow....that's a big premium from 99.9% to 100%.......I'd rather spend the money on tubes 

Okay, 99% is good and sufficient...might grab a 99.9% one if I see it from a corner pharmacy someday, but definitely won't waste the time to locate a chemical supply house.


----------



## JimL11

So here's the thing about 100% isopropyl alchol that anyone who took high school chemistry used to know - it is hygroscopic, which is a fancy word meaning that it will absorb water from the atmosphere. So, even if you start with 100% isopropyl alcohol, after you've used it a few times, it will no longer be 100% because any water in the atmosphere will gradually enter it. So, there is no point in spending extra money for the 100% stuff, because it's not going to stay that way over time.


----------



## bcowen

JimL11 said:


> So here's the thing about 100% isopropyl alchol that anyone who took high school chemistry used to know - it is hygroscopic, which is a fancy word meaning that it will absorb water from the atmosphere. So, even if you start with 100% isopropyl alcohol, after you've used it a few times, it will no longer be 100% because any water in the atmosphere will gradually enter it. So, there is no point in spending extra money for the 100% stuff, because it's not going to stay that way over time.



But I'll finish drinking it long before then.  

Seriously, while I _can_ tell a difference -- visually -- in the drying time between the 93% and 99% (on LP's, not tube pins), it's not a lot. Perhaps 10 seconds if I had to guess. I can't imagine the drying time between the 99% and 99.9% could be more than a second or two if even that. Probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 7, 2019)

Thanks @bcowen you got me so obsessed with the Frankie that I on a daily routine would go around on the internet sending emails searching Ebay and what not, asking if they had a  JAN CBRZ 7N7 Lansdale. And it seems like that day has come...  (In the mail)!!


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Seriously, while I _can_ tell a difference -- visually -- in the drying time between the 93% and 99%



You really need to get out more, Bill.


----------



## JKDJedi

JimL11 said:


> So here's the thing about 100% isopropyl alchol that anyone who took high school chemistry used to know - it is hygroscopic, which is a fancy word meaning that it will absorb water from the atmosphere. So, even if you start with 100% isopropyl alcohol, after you've used it a few times, it will no longer be 100% because any water in the atmosphere will gradually enter it. So, there is no point in spending extra money for the 100% stuff, because it's not going to stay that way over time.


----------



## meomap

Hi,

Just received one ZALYTRON 6SN7 tube from Upscale yesterday.
The other one is GE.
Will test it with ALO Studio Six hp amp later.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 8, 2019)

meomap said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just received one ZALYTRON 6SN7 tube from Upscale yesterday.
> The other one is GE.
> Will test it with ALO Studio Six hp amp later.


What numbers if any are on the Zalytron?


----------



## meomap

JKDJedi said:


> What numbers if any are on the Zalaytron?


The other side only stated 6SN7GTB.


----------



## JKDJedi

meomap said:


> The other side only stated 6SN7GTB.


Ok, no date stamp. Never heard of that tube before and was wondering who built it.


----------



## Slade01

meomap said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just received one ZALYTRON 6SN7 tube from Upscale yesterday.
> The other one is GE.
> Will test it with ALO Studio Six hp amp later.





JKDJedi said:


> Ok, no date stamp. Never heard of that tube before and was wondering who built it.



Most likely CBS/Hytron 5692.


----------



## Keno18

JKDJedi said:


> Ok, no date stamp. Never heard of that tube before and was wondering who built it.


The "GTB" I think indicates that at least it's in the latest generation of 6sn7s.


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Have these on their way, a bit of an impulse purchase from Upscale Audio to use in my Feliks Elise. All Upscale notes is that they are early Russian, found in a cave in Brazil, intriguing but not very specific. Can anyone help me ID their make / year of production?


So how you liking the Fotons? See some that are low on price and others a little up there.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> So how you liking the Fotons? See some that are low on price and others a little up there.


They are well built, dead quiet, but a bit too warm, and add slight grain to mids in my chain with Tung Sol 7236 as output tubes. That said, bass is tight, treble very natural and non-fatiguing, a lot to like.t These may also need a few more hours to shine, only 20 hours or so thus far..


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You really need to get out more, Bill.



How would I know the difference between 93% and 99% if I did that?  Geez, your logic sometimes escapes me.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks @bcowen you got me so obsessed with the Frankie that I on a daily routine would go around on the internet sending emails searching Ebay and what not, asking if they had a  JAN CBRZ 7N7 Lansdale. And it seems like that day has come...  (In the mail)!!



Sweet!!  Be interested in your impressions once you get them.


----------



## bcowen

meomap said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just received one ZALYTRON 6SN7 tube from Upscale yesterday.
> The other one is GE.
> Will test it with ALO Studio Six hp amp later.



The Zalytron is actually a 5692 (a top tier 6SN7). If you got that for a good price, right on!!!  The GE will make a good doorstop.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The Zalytron is actually a 5692 (a top tier 6SN7). If you got that for a good price, right on!!!  The GE will make a good doorstop.


crap, now I want one! The Zaly not the GE


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> They are well built, dead quiet, but a bit too warm, and add slight grain to mids in my chain with Tung Sol 7236 as output tubes. That said, bass is tight, treble very natural and non-fatiguing, a lot to like.t These may also need a few more hours to shine, only 20 hours or so thus far..


Sounds like you described my Raytheon 6SN7WGT, so I asked because I grabbed a 1958 pair for collections sake. See how they sound off my Darky (Darkvoice)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Sounds like you described my Raytheon 6SN7WGT, so I asked because I grabbed a 1958 pair for collections sake. See how they sound off my Darky (Darkvoice)



Be aware the Fotons take a significant amount of break-in time unless you resolder the pins.  @Paladin79 discovered that relationship as I was experiencing (and reporting) 100+ hours of play time before the tubes really started to sing (and the graininess would go away by then as well). Once the pins are resoldered, that break-in time goes down to a few hours. It seems that either poor soldering techniques or a bad solder formulation which has deteriorated over time -- or both -- are the major (if not the sole) contributor to this.  But once either resoldered or given enough play time, the Fotons remain one of my personal favorites in the Lyr 3 even over tubes that cost considerably more.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Be aware the Fotons take a significant amount of break-in time unless you resolder the pins.  @Paladin79 discovered that relationship as I was experiencing (and reporting) 100+ hours of play time before the tubes really started to sing (and the graininess would go away by then as well). Once the pins are resoldered, that break-in time goes down to a few hours. It seems that either poor soldering techniques or a bad solder formulation which has deteriorated over time -- or both -- are the major (if not the sole) contributor to this.  But once either resoldered or given enough play time, the Fotons remain one of my personal favorites in the Lyr 3 even over tubes that cost considerably more.


I can now try a Foton in a Lyr 3, perhaps a 53 or 54 tonight.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can now try a Foton in a Lyr 3, perhaps a 53 or 54 tonight.



Let it warm up for a bit, and then play this.  The Foton was made for it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 9, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Let it warm up for a bit, and then play this.  The Foton was made for it.





bcowen said:


> Be aware the Fotons take a significant amount of break-in time unless you resolder the pins.  @Paladin79 discovered that relationship as I was experiencing (and reporting) 100+ hours of play time before the tubes really started to sing (and the graininess would go away by then as well). Once the pins are resoldered, that break-in time goes down to a few hours. It seems that either poor soldering techniques or a bad solder formulation which has deteriorated over time -- or both -- are the major (if not the sole) contributor to this.  But once either resoldered or given enough play time, the Fotons remain one of my personal favorites in the Lyr 3 even over tubes that cost considerably more.


I'll heat those pins up on arrival, thanks!! (this Friday) And will break them in with this album..


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'll heat those pins up on arrival, thanks!! (this Friday) And will break them in with this album..



I prefer removing all the old russian solder, then adding some nice kester liquid rosin flux, and then replacing the solder. Personally I use some Kester that is no longer made with 3 per cent silver. It is not ROHS compliant but then, I do not really care.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Let it warm up for a bit, and then play this.  The Foton was made for it.



Is this Marilyn Manson's brother maybe? Where, or why do you find this stuff lol?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I prefer removing all the old russian solder, then adding some nice kester liquid rosin flux, and then replacing the solder. Personally I use some Kester that is no longer made with 3 per cent silver. It is not ROHS compliant but then, I do not really care.


remove the solder... I'm not even gonna try that. #HowToRuinaTube


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 9, 2019)

um, I have done maybe 100 so far, including 1578 Melz. You just have to understand the technique, @bcowen knows it now that i explained it. No tubes have been ruined.

The Foton does sound exceptional in the Lyr 3, and the Bifrost 2 is no slouch feeding it. I was looking for tubes to try and I still have not brought the tubes home that I sent Jason at Schiit for the tube shootout. I am curious about the black glass Ken-Rad especially. I have more around but I would have to dig them out.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 9, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> um, I have done maybe 100 so far, including 1578 Melz. You just have to understand the technique, @bcowen knows it now that i explained it. No tubes have been ruined.
> 
> The Foton does sound exceptional in the Lyr 3, and the Bifrost 2 is no slouch feeding it. I was looking for tubes to try and I still have not brought the tubes home that I sent Jason at Schiit for the tube shootout. I am curious about the black glass Ken-Rad especially. I have more around but I would have to dig them out.


Looks like you cut the bottom out and let the old solder out and just fill with new solder? How do you refill with them tiny holes?


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 9, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Looks like you cut the bottom out and let the old solder out and just fill with new solder? How do you refill with them tiny holes? And Dark Glasss Ken RAd? just won one off Ebay wth a NAtional Union both VT231, again, just for collections sake



You heat them and use a solder sucker, there is no cutting. Once rosin is applied, you use small gauge solder and capillary action causes the solder to flow inside the cavities. If you have ever soldered copper water pipes then you have seen how solder can flow. I have taught soldering, this is not something you want to try on a good tube first thing. Get some dud tubes and practice a bit. And dud tubes can be handy for such things as headphone racks. The tube on the right does not show it but both are lit.

I ended up with a lot of black glass tubes when I bought supposed duds, many work.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 10, 2019)

Burped


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Looks like you cut the bottom out and let the old solder out and just fill with new solder? How do you refill with them tiny holes?



You need a solder sucker.  @Paladin79 directed me to this one which works great, and especially so for this application. I've sucked and resoldered a bunch of Fotons quite successfully and haven't killed one yet, although the appearance of my finished pins is still second fiddle to what Tom can achieve.  Perhaps he sucks more.   


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006GOKVKI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Is this Marilyn Manson's brother maybe? Where, or why do you find this stuff lol?



It finds me. Can't explain it.  It just happens.  Admit it though... you love it, right?


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I have taught soldering, this is not something you want to try on a good tube first thing. Get some dud tubes and practice a bit. And dud tubes can be handy for such things as headphone racks.



@JKDJedi surely you have some g.e. tubes collecting dust ready to be practiced on...


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi surely you have some g.e. tubes collecting dust ready to be practiced on...



ROFL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi surely you have some g.e. tubes collecting dust ready to be practiced on...





bcowen said:


> You need a solder sucker.  @Paladin79 directed me to this one which works great, and especially so for this application. I've sucked and resoldered a bunch of Fotons quite successfully and haven't killed one yet, although the appearance of my finished pins is still second fiddle to what Tom can achieve.  Perhaps he sucks more.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006GOKVKI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Sold all my GE preamps  and if we just want to do the reheating of the pins, upside down, on her side, missionary....err got side tracked ... Or ??


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...this is not something you want to try on a good tube first thing. Get some dud tubes and practice a bit.



And @JKDJedi , if you need some practice tubes, PM @Ripper2860 . He has a whole collection of dud tubes.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Sold all my GE preamps  and if we just want to do the reheating of the pins, upside down, on her side, missionary....err got side tracked ... Or ??



What works best for me is the tube nearly horizontal with a very slight downward tilt to the pins (a couple degrees maybe). As @Paladin79 noted, you want capillary action to draw the solder up into the pin.  If you do it upside down (or the pins tilted up relative to the tube top), you run the risk of the solder flowing into the tube base and potentially shorting some wires together. If you're only going to reheat (and not suck), best to add a little solder when you reheat so that you get some new, good solder pulled up into the pin between the wire and the pin cavity.


----------



## meomap

Just installed the Jalytron 6SN7 OR CBS.
Far left of picture only.
Sounds dead quiet.
Sounds a lot more open and airiness than the GE 6SN7 and more details.
Funny thing at first is I did not see any light inside the tube when comparing to the GE. I thought I bought a dud.
I heard my GE for years now.
I just heard the newer type of tube and like WOW.
Waiting for more burn_in.


----------



## JKDJedi

meomap said:


> Just installed the Jalytron 6SN7 OR CBS.
> Far left of picture only.
> Sounds dead quiet.
> Sounds a lot more open and airiness than the GE 6SN7 and more details.
> ...


That's nice looking amp, and because I know very little, I have to ask, If the one Zalytron tube is your preamp, what are the others?


----------



## bcowen

meomap said:


> Just installed the Jalytron 6SN7 OR CBS.
> Far left of picture only.
> Sounds dead quiet.
> Sounds a lot more open and airiness than the GE 6SN7 and more details.
> ...



Mmmmmmmm….tubes. More tubes = more Mmmmmmmmm.  

Seriously, that's a beautiful piece.  What is it?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> What works best for me is the tube nearly horizontal with a very slight downward tilt to the pins (a couple degrees maybe). As @Paladin79 noted, you want capillary action to draw the solder up into the pin.  If you do it upside down (or the pins tilted up relative to the tube top), you run the risk of the solder flowing into the tube base and potentially shorting some wires together. If you're only going to reheat (and not suck), best to add a little solder when you reheat so that you get some new, good solder pulled up into the pin between the wire and the pin cavity.


Copy, I'll try this with one of the Fotons that come in next month, freakn snail mail.. my brother n law is a welder, I might just have him do the honors.


----------



## meomap

JKDJedi said:


> That's nice looking amp, and because I know very little, I have to ask, If the one Zalytron tube is your preamp, what are the others?


Next two are Pope 6V6.
Next two are normal cheap OB2 regulator.
Last one on the right is Genelex Gold Lion 5AR4 or GZ34.
This is ALO Studio Six Reference Tube Amp.


----------



## meomap

bcowen said:


> Mmmmmmmm….tubes. More tubes = more Mmmmmmmmm.
> 
> Seriously, that's a beautiful piece.  What is it?


Hi,
That is ALO Studio Six Reference hp tube amp.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Copy, I'll try this with one of the Fotons that come in next month, freakn snail mail.. my brother n law is a welder, I might just have him do the honors.



If he can solder too, then by all means.  Never do yourself what you can get someone else to do for you.  

But I have welders and brazers (sweat soldering copper pipe, etc) at work, and one does not equal the other. Put a welder on a brazing job, and you end up with a big heap of scrap copper.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It finds me. Can't explain it.  It just happens.  Admit it though... you love it, right?



Your choice of music reminds me of when my daughter was going to college high up in the Rockies and students would not return for classes because the skiing happened to be very good. She remarked one time that if she heard the word "tubular" one more time she was going to stick a pencil in her ear. Some of your music is pencil in the ear worthy. That was a compliment right?


----------



## bcowen

meomap said:


> Next two are Pope 6V6.
> Next two are normal cheap OB2 regulator.
> Last one on the right is Genelex Gold Lion 5AR4 or GZ34.
> This is ALO Studio Six Reference Tube Amp.



Sweet!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Your choice of music reminds me of when my daughter was going to college high up in the Rockies and students would not return for classes because the skiing happened to be very good. She remarked one time that if she heard the word "tubular" one more time she was going to stick a pencil in her ear. Some of your music is pencil in the ear worthy. That was a compliment right?



Assuming sticking a pencil in your ear feels good (subjectively of course), then yes.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

meomap said:


> That is ALO Studio Six Reference hp tube amp.



I may be mistaken but I believe I know the guy who worked on the design of that amp, he goes by @TomSix  as I recall.  I have not seen him in a while, and I may be wrong, but the brand looks awfully familiar.


----------



## meomap

Paladin79 said:


> I may be mistaken but I believe I know the guy who worked on the design of that amp, he goes by @TomSix  as I recall.  I have not seen him in a while, and I may be wrong, but the brand looks awfully familiar.


Yes, it is.
@TomSix is the designer of that sweet amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> If he can solder too, then by all means.  Never do yourself what you can get someone else to do for you.
> 
> But I have welders and brazers (sweat soldering copper pipe, etc) at work, and one does not equal the other. Put a welder on a brazing job, and you end up with a big heap of scrap copper.


SOB!! I just took a good look at the pins on these tubes for the first time....they're all covered and sealed with solder at the tips! o.O Mind.....BLOWN.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> SOB!! I just took a good look at the pins on these tubes for the first time....they're all covered and sealed with solder at the tips! o.O Mind.....BLOWN.




LOL....that's my observation too, couple of weeks ago....so I asked Ken how tube bases were installed onto tubes the other night...


----------



## JKDJedi

Found one of my tubes with a loose base did the ninja search and found that clear nail polish was the popular fix, works!


----------



## DenverW

Hi!  Love the thread!

I was wondering if anyone has insight on how to identify a date code on a rca vt-231.  The code seems to be:

SC
278
A

Just trying to figure out how early the tube was made.  Any help is appreciated!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Found one of my tubes with a loose base did the ninja search and found that clear nail polish was the popular fix, works!



A good cyanoacrylate glue works well too.  But emphasis on "good"....the Krazy Glue brand doesn't qualify (IMO).  I've used the Rhino glue for just this purpose for years and have never had a tube base come loose afterwards.  Of course, your wife's nail polish (assuming it's your wife's ) is free for you, so there's that.  LOL!


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DGZBFJM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Roasty

JKDJedi said:


> Found one of my tubes with a loose base did the ninja search and found that clear nail polish was the popular fix, works!



I had a few tubes bought off ebay with loose bases. Araldite always does the trick for me.. rock solid bases by the next day.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> A good cyanoacrylate glue works well too.  But emphasis on "good"....the Krazy Glue brand doesn't qualify (IMO).  I've used the Rhino glue for just this purpose for years and have never had a tube base come loose afterwards.  Of course, your wife's nail polish (assuming it's your wife's ) is free for you, so there's that.  LOL!
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DGZBFJM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Yes it was free..  wish I had read further into the nail polish fix in applying tape to the tube so that only the base gets the sappy mess....now I have to clean up the thing with nail polish remover.  first world problems.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Yes it was free..  wish I had read further into the nail polish fix in applying tape to the tube so that only the base gets the sappy mess....now I have to clean up the thing with nail polish remover.  first world problems.



Just wipe off the original silkscreening, write "GE" on it with a magic marker, and anybody looking at it will consider the sappy mess as normal.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Just wipe off the original silkscreening, write "GE" on it with a magic marker, and anybody looking at it will consider the sappy mess as normal.


Lol!! Copy!


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Lol!! Copy!



Yeah but it will make the resale value plummet to 0.  He'd be stuck with that tube for life!


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Yeah but it will make the resale value plummet to 0.  He'd be stuck with that tube for life!


This one is a lifer already before I trashed half the "National",, I'm such a dork!      Union is still intact.. read that the grey glass (front page of this thread) are rare and that National never really made VT231 but this tube has VT231 on it . o.O


----------



## attmci (Oct 13, 2019)

Roasty said:


> I had a few tubes bought off ebay with loose bases. Araldite always does the trick for me.. rock solid bases by the next day.


All similar epoxy glue, but could have different resistance temp.
This one is no good:
https://www.amazon.com/Araldite-ARA-400001-Standard-2-Tubes-Epoxy/dp/B00AU0MW1K

high temperature resistance (-30 to 65 degree Celsius)


shuuuut, this is  *"The Reference 6SN7 Thread"*

*Seems another thread had been screwed. *


----------



## Roasty

attmci said:


> All similar epoxy glue, but could have different resistance temp.
> This one is no good:
> https://www.amazon.com/Araldite-ARA-400001-Standard-2-Tubes-Epoxy/dp/B00AU0MW1K
> 
> ...



Lol crap that's the one I've been using.. Seems to do the job though. Epoxy still looks good. Used it on recommendations from another forum who have used the same araldite version. 

Anyways, to steer things back.. 

I saw a pair of matched nos Pope 6SN7 tubes. Going for about usd430. Worth it?


----------



## attmci (Oct 13, 2019)

Roasty said:


> Lol crap that's the one I've been using.. Seems to do the job though. Epoxy still looks good. Used it on recommendations from another forum who have used the same araldite version.
> 
> Anyways, to steer things back..
> 
> I saw a pair of matched nos Pope 6SN7 tubes. Going for about usd430. Worth it?


Mullard produced ECCXX, but not 6SN7GT. 

https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=663.1935


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> All similar epoxy glue, but could have different resistance temp.
> This one is no good:
> https://www.amazon.com/Araldite-ARA-400001-Standard-2-Tubes-Epoxy/dp/B00AU0MW1K
> 
> ...




I believe you mentioned using carpenter's glue to fix loose base last time...did it work well?


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> I believe you mentioned using carpenter's glue to fix loose base last time...did it work well?


Not me, Sir.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> This one is a lifer already before I trashed half the "National",, I'm such a dork!      Union is still intact.. read that the grey glass (front page of this thread) are rare and that National never really made VT231 but this tube has VT231 on it . o.O




LOL...I'd rather have a loose base....hope your glue-applying skill improves, don't forget to find a GE to practice on, as always  

Never had a NU VT-231, but the one in the photo looks like an RCA grey glass except having the  "NU VT-231" stencil on it.


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Not me, Sir.



My bad...sorry. 

Gotta be someone else, just curious to know the result


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 14, 2019)

cddc said:


> LOL...I'd rather have a loose base....hope your glue-applying skill improves, don't forget to find a GE to practice on, as always
> 
> Never had a NU VT-231, but the one in the photo looks like an RCA grey glass except having the  "NU VT-231" stencil on it.


Yup lesson learned..  I'd swear it was a RCA too only this guy is really tall, taller than the RCA for sure. (and sound signature are different)


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Yup lesson learned..  I'd swear it was a RCA too only this guy is really tall, taller than the RCA for sure. (and sound signature are different)




Cool...congrats for a very good find! 

Most of the NU 6SN7's I've seen come with Black Glass, grey glass NU's are rare


----------



## attmci

This could be Bangbangtubes or manifest_audio. So do not buy.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-CV1988...530604?hash=item1cdb5f276c:g:34IAAOSw-NldpIZP


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> This could be Bangbangtubes or manifest_audio. So do not buy.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-CV1988...530604?hash=item1cdb5f276c:g:34IAAOSw-NldpIZP


Overpriced? O.o


----------



## Slade01

Question on FOTONs - how do I know I am looking at a FOTON (how would I distinguish this from other Russian tubes?)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 15, 2019)

Look for a diamond logo with 6H8C in the center (see below).  You may also see a 2 digit year code under the right bottom of the diamond.

The example below is a flat-plate Foton. They also have ribbed plate versions, which are typically 1955 and earlier.


----------



## Paladin79

I was just offered a group of 50 Fotons at a very low price but they were not from the 50’s.


----------



## Slade01

Ripper2860 said:


> Look for a diamond logo with 6H8C in the center (see below).  You may also see a 2 digit year code under the right bottom of the diamond.
> 
> The example below is a flat-plate Foton. They also have ribbed plate versions, which are typically 1955 and earlier.



Thank you.  Is the FOTON name the factory/plant/location/name?  I always thought these were just really old Reflektors all this time assumed the diamond was their old logo).  Learning something new every day...  I am assuming the ribbed plates probably sound better?  And so this one with the star in the diamond and date code is also a foton i am assuming.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 15, 2019)

I'd shoot Bill Cowen ( @bcowen  ) a PM and see what he has to say about this tube.  H'es pretty much the Foton rersident expert.

Any Reflektor tubes I've seen have a oval like logo with a rectangle in front, but the earlier ones may have had a diamond.



All the 6SN7 compatible Foton's I've seen are marked 6H8C inside the diamond -- never seen one with a star and 3820 markings in the diamond.


----------



## Slade01

Ripper2860 said:


> I'd shoot Bill Cowen ( @bcowen  ) a PM and see what he has to say about this tube.  H'es pretty much the Foton rersident expert.
> 
> Any Reflektor tubes I've seen have a oval like logo with a rectangle in front, but the earlier ones may have had a diamond.
> 
> ...



Sounds good.  Yeah I'm a fan of Reflektor tubes and have only really seen the logo you posted as the current reflektor logo.  I thought I saw somewhere that someone posted a russian logo guide that listed the diamond as an older logo so I got confused and just curious about the history.  And the one I posted with the star...yeah I wasn't sure if this is a knock off or not!  I will have to shoot Bcowen a msg.  Thanks!


----------



## Slade01

Slade01 said:


> Sounds good.  Yeah I'm a fan of Reflektor tubes and have only really seen the logo you posted as the current reflektor logo.  I thought I saw somewhere that someone posted a russian logo guide that listed the diamond as an older logo so I got confused and just curious about the history.  And the one I posted with the star...yeah I wasn't sure if this is a knock off or not!  I will have to shoot Bcowen a msg.  Thanks!



Found the logo guide that I saw....


----------



## bcowen (Oct 15, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Thank you.  Is the FOTON name the factory/plant/location/name?  I always thought these were just really old Reflektors all this time assumed the diamond was their old logo).  Learning something new every day...  I am assuming the ribbed plates probably sound better?  And so this one with the star in the diamond and date code is also a foton i am assuming.



That's a military approval symbol. I've seen that on some Fotons, but can't say whether it was exclusive to Foton.  Based on the top mica supports and the plate rod winged tops, that sure looks like a Foton though.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Thank you.  Is the FOTON name the factory/plant/location/name?  I always thought these were just really old Reflektors all this time assumed the diamond was their old logo).  Learning something new every day...  I am assuming the ribbed plates probably sound better?  And so this one with the star in the diamond and date code is also a foton i am assuming.



The ribbed plates *do* sound better to my ears, but it's not a huge difference.  Much bigger difference between even a non-ribbed '50's Foton and anything '60's or later. Any of the '50's are quite a bit better.


----------



## JKDJedi

Rolling this weekend...


----------



## cddc (Oct 16, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'd shoot Bill Cowen ( @bcowen  ) a PM and see what he has to say about this tube.  H'es pretty much the Foton rersident expert.
> 
> Any Reflektor tubes I've seen have a oval like logo with a rectangle in front, but the earlier ones may have had a diamond.
> 
> ...




LOL...this logo looks like


----------



## cddc (Oct 16, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I was just offered a group of 50 Fotons at a very low price but they were not from the 50’s.



If you're buying 50, you can strike a deal 

Lots of people here consider Foton good value


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Overpriced? O.o



BangyBang is a notorious scammer...avoid any of his tubes, way overpriced


----------



## OctavianH

cddc said:


> If you're buying 50, you can strike a deal
> 
> Lots of people here consider Foton good value



I had the chance to listen to the Foton 6H8C from 50s which look like these:







And some Nevs 6H8C from 70s which look like this:






The first ones are great, but the 70s were under my expectation in terms of sound quality. They were cheap but I sold them after a few hours. So check before you buy. They might not be Fotons.

These newer versions were made most probably here:
http://www.rutubes.com/category/nevz-tube-novosibirsk-russia/


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> If you're buying 50, you can strike a deal
> 
> Lots of people here consider Foton good value




I am fairly familiar with them thanks. I even had a 1954 version in the 6sn7 equivalents I sent to Schiit audio for their tube challenge Sept. 13th. 

 This is some of my work in concealing said tubes for double blind testing. I am building some amps for future blind testing and I will use cages this time so shape of a 6sn7 equivalent is not a limiting factor.

I have also done a lot of work with some of the single triode forerunners of the 6sn7's and those will have the ability to be concealed for future testing as well.


----------



## Velozity

Hey guys maybe you can help me out.  I'm gathering some of my 6SN7s to sell that I don't use.  Can you help me decipher the date codes of these two Sylvania 6SN7GTB?  Thanks!


----------



## Slade01

Velozity said:


> Hey guys maybe you can help me out.  I'm gathering some of my 6SN7s to sell that I don't use.  Can you help me decipher the date codes of these two Sylvania 6SN7GTB?  Thanks!



Yeah i think thats one of the great mysteries - the Sylvania Letter Code.  It's assumed that the two letter code is the plant, and the three letters below correspond to some date.   But no one seems to know beyond that.  I know because I had one of these same Sylvania 6SN7GTBs also which I sold, but was unable to give any more information than "it tests strong".  Lol.  But who knows, maybe someone has figured it out or stumbled upon the information by now.


----------



## cddc

LOL...I agree. The 3 letter code is the ugliest date code...no way you can figure out which year unless you have an official manual from Sylvania. If there is a number you can at least figure out which year.

But in your case I don't think people really care about which years these GTB's were made. GTB's are always the latest version. My guess is 60's or 70's.


----------



## Ripper2860

I believe GTBs were introduced in 1954, so that should at least provide a starting point ...


----------



## cddc

Paladin79 said:


> I am fairly familiar with them thanks. I even had a 1954 version in the 6sn7 equivalents I sent to Schiit audio for their tube challenge Sept. 13th.
> 
> This is some of my work in concealing said tubes for double blind testing. I am building some amps for future blind testing and I will use cages this time so shape of a 6sn7 equivalent is not a limiting factor.
> 
> I have also done a lot of work with some of the single triode forerunners of the 6sn7's and those will have the ability to be concealed for future testing as well.




No doubt about it. I have been reading your wonderful posts on tubes for long time, very informative...all the way back to the time when I was trying to buy a Crack kit, that's about 5 or 6 years ago...LOL

Double blind test is good, people tend to think the more expensive tube sounds better, but in fact I read lots of negative reviews towards the pricey 5692 tubes 

Price is normally set by supply and demand, not necessarily the sound quality.  But double blind test could tell the truth. Please let us know how the Schiit challenge goes


----------



## cddc

My wild guess on the date codes BZU and BDL:

B could mean 2, so it's 1952 or 1962 or 1972. 

But GTB was introduced in 1954 according to @Ripper2860 , that leaves us with 1962 or 1972. So my pick is 1962


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I was just offered a group of 50 Fotons at a very low price but they were not from the 50’s.


I got email from the Russian too several months ago.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> The ribbed plates *do* sound better to my ears, but it's not a huge difference.  Much bigger difference between even a non-ribbed '50's Foton and anything '60's or later. Any of the '50's are quite a bit better.


I recall you have 1000 of these.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> I recall you have 1000 of these.



Well, I did.  I gave away so many to my friends (both of them) that I'm down to around 990 now.  Probably need to re-stash.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> I got email from the Russian too several months ago.



If it's the same Russian, he had a few pre-'55's left, and quite a few 58's and 59's.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 17, 2019)

cddc said:


> No doubt about it. I have been reading your wonderful posts on tubes for long time, very informative...all the way back to the time when I was trying to buy a Crack kit, that's about 5 or 6 years ago...LOL
> 
> Double blind test is good, people tend to think the more expensive tube sounds better, but in fact I read lots of negative reviews towards the pricey 5692 tubes
> 
> Price is normally set by supply and demand, not necessarily the sound quality.  But double blind test could tell the truth. Please let us know how the Schiit challenge goes



The Schiit challenge took place September 13th and was written up by AudioHead.

https://audio-head.com/double-blind-a-b-schiit-shootout-tubes/

There are a couple caveats that should go along with this blind test. Originally I would have wanted Lyr 3's used but Saga preamps were used since Jason wanted to use speakers for the group. I built all cables and one splitter device so they could switch between four tubes at a time, I sent eight total tubes. The Saga uses a tube as a buffer, not a gain device so I am not sure how much difference could be detected. The tubes were not damaged in shipping, all measure equivalent to NOS or not far from that and not everyone has the tube listening ability of Mr. Cowen in rating such tubes. 

Jason learned about this because I had done the same challenge with @bcowen maybe a month or so before. Bills challenge was to pick a GE tube from the other tubes I sent, and I included some tubes I knew Bill was familiar with. Foton, Frankie, Bad Boy, etc. I believe Bill did mention which tubes he liked but the object of that test was to pick the GE tube as the worst and it got down to two tubes, his choices were nearly spot on in naming the tubes concealed in PVC.

Between the time of Bill's exercise and the Schiit shootout, I replaced the GE and a couple other tubes with things like Tung Sol Mouse ears, CBS/Hytron 5692, and a Melz 1578. Tomorrow morning I will show rankings of those tubes as they were blind tested by a group of audiophile friends. Now that I have the tubes back I am going to move on to a final test where 6sn7 equivalents will be tested and compared under very tight circumstances. Cages will cover the tubes so that single triode, different tube shapes, loktals, whatever can be concealed. Testing will be in class A headphone amps and the same type Sennheiser headphones will be used by all.  I am building all associated amps, cables, etc. and they will be as electroniclally close as I can make them.This will be a 100 point system I have used in the past with friends who helped set it up. Specific music is geared toward specific things like sound stage, attack, glare, etc.

Such testing can take days and I have participated once before with a very exceptional group of individuals.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, I did.  I gave away so many to my friends (both of them) that I'm down to around 990 now.  Probably need to re-stash.



Wait, you have given away tubes? Let me make sure you have my address and giving them away is not the same as having the pin solder replaced right?  Oh wait you send me some for experiments, I think that involved work on my part.


----------



## attmci (Oct 17, 2019)

I need to check my ratings for this I posted before based on memories.


----------



## attmci (Oct 17, 2019)

attmci said:


> I need to check my ratings for this I posted before based on memories.


Found it.

I wonder if you can post a picture of the badboy/goodboy you submitted to them?

They should look exactly like these(top left):




 is



Moreover, the authentic 1578 are very rare, and there are tons of fakes.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tub...entic-russian-military-1578-vacuum-tubes.html


----------



## Wes S

attmci said:


> Found it.
> 
> I wonder if you can post a picture of the badboy/goodboy you submitted to them?
> 
> ...


The good old, "Badboy" info never stops. . .I wonder how many times this exact picture has been posted in the forums. . .


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 17, 2019)

attmci said:


> Found it.
> 
> I wonder if you can post a picture of the badboy/goodboy you submitted to them?
> 
> ...



Was that question and statement directed to me?

And I have a pretty good idea about which is the authentic 1578 unless the info has changed in the last day or so. I do not have photos handy but three hole black plate bottom foil getter and copper rods on the Sylvania. The sylvania is still sealed but I will try to look around tomorrow to see if I saved photos. I built identical extensions for each tube so that not even the base was visible but they are very well sealed.


----------



## attmci

Wes S said:


> The good old, "Badboy" info never stops. . .I wonder how many times this exact picture has been posted in the forums. . .


I posted multiple times because most of the "badboy" on the Eastbay are fakes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 17, 2019)

People throw around the Bad Boy term a lot, no doubt. I do not buy many "fakes" and the tricky thing with finding a whole bunch of 6sn7 equivalents was all the brands manufactured by a company for another company.  This can lead to some interesting finds if you know what to look for.


----------



## attmci

attmci said:


> I posted multiple times because most of the "badboy" on the Eastbay are fakes.


On the other hand, many syl tubes not claimed as badboys are real ones and are cost less than $50 a piece.


----------



## JazzVinyl

attmci said:


> On the other hand, many syl tubes not claimed as badboys are real ones and are cost less than $50 a piece.



Do you know the history of how "bad boys" got the moniker of "bad boys"?  

According to this account:
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=235559

It was a guy in AUS who found a big cache of them, wanted to sell them on Ebay for $50.00 a pair, and started called them "bad boys" to 'enhance' their value on the market.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 17, 2019)

No doubt someone named them that lol. There are some Sylvania 6J5 single triode tubes with a similar build that I dubbed Naughty Girls just to see if the name will spread. I will try to post a photo of those tomorrow.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Sylvania...SEAAOSwOC1desxD:sc:USPSFirstClass!47403!US!-1

This one is close but one needs matched pairs and I would need to see the top of the tube.


 Some of you may know about those tubes but the loktal version is the 7A4, I began using them and their military counter part, VT-192.


----------



## attmci (Oct 17, 2019)

JazzVinyl said:


> Do you know the history of how "bad boys" got the moniker of "bad boys"?
> 
> According to this account:
> https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=235559
> ...


I knew.

Do you have some? Do you like these?

If not, feel free to put them on sale here: https://www.head-fi.org/forums/cables-speakers-accessories-for-sale-trade.6553/

I am pretty sure they will find good home.

If you do a eastbay search, 6SN7GT Badboy, all those first 100 results are fake.

NO, these are not what others want.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Factory-Mistake-2-3-Hole-6SN7-VT-231-6SN7GT-Hytron-BadBoy-Plate/273109275238?hash=item3f9694d266&_trkparms=ispr=1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB/x7ZbaZTyexl3yh3SJt+KFDPP5VITYpcia5lDcgmrHSaX+q0wMUAAR8w8u3jBl6kKuf6Og4eJcJMB5ycPNseVeh7fAWomYPjl6moG8Z2mGd9E5RMVQ59Y0M+DRyydBIkEuBuQD8acrTrv/i4AO4R3IVOhs87BIiouVjvAdTcGmlM60e8i3dfqUziFxbh/Fp41DcD3DkmyaIOVKsNh1EofvOoNwcGRwupL1xxQ/2Z4+qAHFqTbfBYGcCq8oKc+Vwl67+HQWkW3KQGDMJ56wznWIA49h+kFtiaQC6P34WQsFtPU0q7b07tH3x6W2GwlKRJORdxNjp4/rU9yZHWoQDH1BMmgD4uTly9+IXHgKYgayjT0GzZX+TMczFuqo6Cz8hgvZqkndpSYbHbWmtn3jEdHniHOiUt12wTH9dLGU3QT18N1+gdGzjF5NOL74KhmKjecr2tDBkfrKMzPvi4bAHeCOnDOOOQAIs1znRQ1KkqbZBJ3sfE6va1EjgXJAd1qryAngTNsncWsoVlQ6Dajmp2Ta37u2caRE6Or0ro56Dx3d7MTKyw2ra3VpGy3QcHF9DA0o4Q/0ZC+SKOMyTMoQIEsoRqYh2AFlbmCSDwFvK7ydS8QlIFRoiMAGfIw6syhmz5U7tysyIEcmoyG+4OaEbA/APXeO3XDqzOr6tPAP9KnhNXUYjT63qkeB2PNolQVyrXNO913Nlyv/2Kb8uhNNnWaxnefwkl08ljSKzLc10YRMRNXysPCG97idqf7pXV14NqmwKhq6JzPuDD26MBRUaxj6DdkMR7B6Dv33OzAIFvJTujmH6ngWmvXEaL9B3u7bYz9O3fUvtx+nEy1dySwm4/cGwB2nLDLZZ2nwH82AqZ+eRR6W9VUeSo2ohUx+CojR9LO0tN7nofjUezHcu24NrWz/6/F1S6HXBr3rpTJ4mxApopB9WKhgW8ezz+xemZvrl/DUYbycOhrfOyDxj4pcOGHqfMOYsYxBS28VHLyEcnGgqEP+WsgstrrY7qqxdF4nTi4DKhZZ2We5J&checksum=27310927523875366f4467294c4ca458c75f47df1661


----------



## JazzVinyl

attmci said:


> I knew.
> 
> Do you have some? Do you like these?
> 
> ...



I am sure you know this, but, the link can be shortened to:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Facto...T-231-6SN7GT-Hytron-BadBoy-Plate/273109275238

Everything after that item number (starting with the "?hash=") can be schwacked.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Paladin79 said:


> Some of you may know about those tubes but the loktal version is the 7A4, I began using them and their military counter part, VT-192.



I have just come across some NOS 74A's...what adapter do I need?


----------



## Paladin79

JazzVinyl said:


> I have just come across some NOS 74A's...what adapter do I need?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...155816?hash=item2ee7206628:g:ZYMAAOSwZupcTRBV

something like this if you are going straight to an octal socket for 6sn7


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Was that question and statement directed to me?
> 
> And I have a pretty good idea about which is the authentic 1578 unless the info has changed in the last day or so. I do not have photos handy but three hole black plate bottom foil getter and copper rods on the Sylvania. The sylvania is still sealed but I will try to look around tomorrow to see if I saved photos. I built identical extensions for each tube so that not even the base was visible but they are very well sealed.


Or no, please don't break the seal. We trust your words. According to the memory, the real badboys sound good, well, not as good as those expensive metal based Syl 6SN7s.


----------



## Slade01

attmci said:


> I knew.
> 
> Do you have some? Do you like these?
> 
> ...



I don't know @attmci  maybe if it can get hyped up, someone will buy that "rare factory mistake" tube.  i can't believe they are still trying to peddle that s***.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 17, 2019)

attmci said:


> Or no, please don't break the seal. We trust your words. According to the memory, the real badboys sound good, well, not as good as those expensive metal based Syl 6SN7s.



Well, @bcowen heard it and said that is a Sylvania Bad Boy in his blind test. Breaking the seal is not easy on those, there is sealing wax and hot glue, and with heat the pvc can even start to melt. I tried removing one and said "screw this" and just built new tubes for any new tubes that went to Schiit.

 Here are two of the 7A4's in place of the 6sn7. I have an extension in place otherwise that might fit directly into the Lyr 3 but I have not tried.

oh and 6j5's as well, top photo. what I call the Naughty Girls in front, three hole black plates.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-p...155816?hash=item2ee7206628:g:ZYMAAOSwZupcTRBV
> 
> something like this if you are going straight to an octal socket for 6sn7



Roger that!  Thanks!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Paladin79 said:


> Here are two of the 7A4's in place of the 6sn7. I have an extension in place otherwise that might fit directly into the Lyr 3 but I have not tried.
> 
> oh and 6j5's as well, top photo. what I call the Naughty Girls in front, three hole black plates.



I assume you have carefully compared the naughty girls to 7A4's?


----------



## Paladin79

JazzVinyl said:


> I assume you have carefully compared the naughty girls to 7A4's?



Yes and I would say they are comparable to the Sylvania VT-192's, there are a lot of 6j5's out there and while the channel separation is there, it took me a while before I was happy with the SQ and these are the best I have heard. You can get the metal can versions for very little money and they are ok but nothing remarkable. 

oh and on the Melz 1578's I have some from 1963 I like the best so far.  Those in a Freya plus really open the pre-amp up, I often combine them with CBS/Hytron 5692's. Four of them are a bit too much of a good thing.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Paladin79 said:


> Yes and I would say they are comparable to the Sylvania VT-192's, there are a lot of 6j5's out there and while the channel separation is there, it took me a while before I was happy with the SQ and these are the best I have heard. You can get the metal can versions for very little money and they are ok but nothing remarkable.



The Sylvania 6J5's are the best you have heard?  I have NU 6J5's and a pair of Tung-Sol 6J5's...heard those?


----------



## Paladin79

JazzVinyl said:


> The Sylvania 6J5's are the best you have heard?  I have NU 6J5's and a pair of Tung-Sol 6J5's...heard those?




yeppers.  I own quite a few tubes but it is a matter of preferences. I have some ST's as well that are nice.

I have many options for gear I own, and may well own more Schiit tube products than anyone you might come across. I am including the hybrid Coaster amps, and maybe five or six of us have built those, but I have built ten or so.


----------



## JazzVinyl (Oct 17, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I have many options for gear I own, and may well own more Schiit tube products than anyone you might come across. I am including the hybrid Coaster amps, and maybe five or six of us have built those, but I have built ten or so.



Very nice!  I love DIY too...

Can depend on what cans ya like too,  My Beyer's like the Tung-Sol's best, the Senn's...NU.


----------



## Paladin79

JazzVinyl said:


> Very nice!  I love DIY too...
> 
> Can dependent on what ya like too, I should think.  My Beyer's like the Tung-Sol's best, the Senn's...NU.



Very true, and what a boring world it would be if we all liked the same thing. It varies with me with types of music as well.


----------



## Wes S

JazzVinyl said:


> Do you know the history of how "bad boys" got the moniker of "bad boys"?
> 
> According to this account:
> https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=235559
> ...


I do. “The '52 Syl came to me from Neville in Australia who had a big stash and I first posted about them on Tubes Asylum and coined the "Bad Boys" moniker that still sticks. Your description is dead on, later in '52 the tube changed to a shorter bottle with round serrated micas - an ordinary, dry sounding tube - but it does have a 1952 date code and many sellers try to pass it off as the good ones. All around this is one of the best 6SN7's ever made.” –Robert H. (in personal correspondence)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Jason learned about this because I had done the same challenge with @bcowen maybe a month or so before. Bills challenge was to pick a GE tube from the other tubes I sent, and I included some tubes I knew Bill was familiar with. Foton, Frankie, Bad Boy, etc. I believe Bill did mention which tubes he liked but the object of that test was to pick the GE tube as the worst and it got down to two tubes, his choices were nearly spot on in naming the tubes concealed in PVC.



Very gracious of you, as usual. But you still *did* win.  



Paladin79 said:


> This will be a 100 point system I have used in the past with friends who helped set it up. Specific music is geared toward specific things like sound stage, attack, glare, etc.



I believe the Marilyn Manson catalog has everything you need in those areas.  I can help with specifics if you like.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wait, you have given away tubes? Let me make sure you have my address and giving them away is not the same as having the pin solder replaced right?  Oh wait you send me some for experiments, I think that involved work on my part.



I didn't say I gave them away for free.  There are always contingencies.


----------



## bcowen

JazzVinyl said:


> The Sylvania 6J5's are the best you have heard?  I have NU 6J5's and a pair of Tung-Sol 6J5's...heard those?



I have a pair of Tung Sols and a pair of the Sylvania VT-192's.  Not sure if the Sylvanias are identical to the ones Tom has, but IIRC they're within a year or two. The Tung Sols sound quite good, but I like the Sylvanias better in the Lyr 3.  Just my preference though, and some here regularly question whether what I listen to actually even qualifies as music, so YMMV.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Very gracious of you, as usual. But you still *did* win.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the Marilyn Manson catalog has everything you need in those areas.  I can help with specifics if you like.  LOL!!



We almost used some Manson but I believe it was tied with the sound of someone dragging their fingernails across a chalkboard. My kids got to love Bob Dylan so there is hope i may like Manson if given enough time.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We almost used some Manson but I believe it was tied with the sound of someone dragging their fingernails across a chalkboard.



Or in other words, sounded like solid state?


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Well, I did.  I gave away so many to my friends (both of them) that I'm down to around 990 now.  Probably need to re-stash.


I used to have 200 5998, and gave away like 195 in the past couple of years. JK


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> I used to have 200 5998, and gave away like 195 in the past couple of years. JK


You best be kidding lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

JazzVinyl said:


> Do you know the history of how "bad boys" got the moniker of "bad boys"?
> 
> According to this account:
> https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=235559
> ...


Who's this Robert H guy who swears this tube is the 2nd coming..  “If you can, try the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT from 1952, bottom getter - incredible bass, warm lovely mids and very extended sweet highs. Some days I think this may be the best sounding 6SN7 ever made.” –Robert H


----------



## cddc (Oct 19, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Who's this Robert H guy who swears this tube is the 2nd coming..  “If you can, try the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT from 1952, bottom getter - incredible bass, warm lovely mids and very extended sweet highs. Some days I think this may be the best sounding 6SN7 ever made.” –Robert H



Pal of the Aussie with the big cache...


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Pal of the Aussie with the big cache...



Have you guys heard the 1983 - 1987 Philips ECG 6SN7GT's?  Easily the most fantastic sounding 6SN7 ever made. Makes a Bad Boy sound like a worn out GE.  You just have to try them.  You'll never tube roll again as these are "*IT* and not surpassed by anything.  I have about a hundred, and would be willing to sell them for $250 each.  Free shipping too.  Just PM me if interested.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Have you guys heard the 1983 - 1987 Philips ECG 6SN7GT's?  Easily the most fantastic sounding 6SN7 ever made. Makes a Bad Boy sound like a worn out GE.  You just have to try them.  You'll never tube roll again as these are "*IT* and not surpassed by anything.  I have about a hundred, and would be willing to sell them for $250 each.  Free shipping too.  Just PM me if interested.


I was buying some dud tubes for my headphone stands but I generally get those by the pound. I will consider the offer though. 
 I did tell my supplier I preferred black and grey glass and it is amazing how many working tubes he sent me thinking they were duds.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was buying some dud tubes for my headphone stands but I generally get those by the pound. I will consider the offer though.
> I did tell my supplier I preferred black and grey glass and it is amazing how many working tubes he sent me thinking they were duds.



For you Tom, and you only, I'd cut you a deal. If you want to buy 10 of them, I'll make it a flat $2k.

*** Note to others: this special deal is not available to anyone else ***


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> You best be kidding lol.


I do have two brand new pairs. One pair in original box, one pair in white box. The the highest bidder wins.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 19, 2019)

attmci said:


> I do have two brand new pairs. One pair in original box, one pair in white box. The the highest bidder wins.



Are you talking Tung Sol 5998's? I do have some but would not mind having more if the price is right. Bill is not allowed to help you negotiate though. 

If you are talking the same tubes Bill mentioned, never mind lol.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> For you Tom, and you only, I'd cut you a deal. If you want to buy 10 of them, I'll make it a flat $2k.
> 
> *** Note to others: this special deal is not available to anyone else ***



What a great guy you are Bill!  Let me talk to my financial adviser and if he likes the deal I will be in touch. This could be a better investment than some of the stocks that are only bringing in about 30% right now.  Now the 5998's are investment worthy, I have no idea how many people built Bottlehead Cracks through the years but those folks certainly buy up those tubes when they can.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> What a great guy you are Bill!  Let me talk to my financial adviser and if he likes the deal I will be in touch. This could be a better investment than some of the stocks that are only bringing in about 30% right now.  Now the 5998's are investment worthy, I have no idea how many people built Bottlehead Cracks through the years but those folks certainly buy up those tubes when they can.



This guy has a bunch of them pretty cheap.  And they're GE's even.  What could be better?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This guy has a bunch of them pretty cheap.  And they're GE's even.  What could be better?



Hell's ducks man, you know the power tubes can be decent lol. It is all the other GE tubes you have to wonder about.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Have you guys heard the 1983 - 1987 Philips ECG 6SN7GT's?  Easily the most fantastic sounding 6SN7 ever made. Makes a Bad Boy sound like a worn out GE.  You just have to try them.  You'll never tube roll again as these are "*IT* and not surpassed by anything.  I have about a hundred, and would be willing to sell them for $250 each.  Free shipping too.  Just PM me if interested.




You have already successfully coined the legendary "FrankenTube" or "Frankie"...well done!  

Please call the 1983 - 1987 Philips ECG 6SN7GT's "Good Boys" so that people will buy another legendary for $250 apiece with confidence...


----------



## attmci (Oct 19, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> What a great guy you are Bill!  Let me talk to my financial adviser and if he likes the deal I will be in touch. This could be a better investment than some of the stocks that are only bringing in about 30% right now.  Now the 5998's are investment worthy, I have no idea how many people built Bottlehead Cracks through the years but those folks certainly buy up those tubes when they can.


You mean @Skylab? LOL

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/page-1981#post-15165935


 _*Contributor*_

*Skylab*


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Hell's ducks man, you know the power tubes can be decent lol. It is all the other GE tubes you have to wonder about.


How do you know Bill like "ducks"? LOL


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> You mean @Skylab? LOL
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/page-1981#post-15165935
> 
> ...




OMG......what a stash!!! 

Well done!


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> You have already successfully coined the legendary "FrankenTube" or "Frankie"...well done!
> 
> Please call the 1983 - 1987 Philips ECG 6SN7GT's "Good Boys" so that people will buy another legendary for $250 apiece with confidence...



LOL!  I was thinking something like "Godzilla's person Offspring" or something for the Philips.  Frankie was named as such due to the squared-off top shape of the bottle, so the Philips name needs something that at least has something relative to it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hell's ducks man, you know the power tubes can be decent lol. It is all the other GE tubes you have to wonder about.



Their 211's are good, but that's technically a transmitting tube (not to nitpick or anything ).  Their 6CA7's (EL34's) blow chunks.  Haven't ever tried a GE 6550...not sure if they actually made them or had them OEM'd.  And I haven't tried their 5998's as I've never had an OTL amp (which is the typical application for that tube).  I also never tried out those rectifiers either -- have you had the opportunity to give them a listen in the Cary?  If so, are they any better than what was in there when you got it (Sovteks, IIRC)?


----------



## JKDJedi

OctavianH said:


> I had the chance to listen to the Foton 6H8C from 50s which look like these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_I haVE A PAIR OF 58' COMING IN and it seems like they are without the ribbed For her pleasure plates... so might just go ahead and grab an early 50's _


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Their 211's are good, but that's technically a transmitting tube (not to nitpick or anything ).  Their 6CA7's (EL34's) blow chunks.  Haven't ever tried a GE 6550...not sure if they actually made them or had them OEM'd.  And I haven't tried their 5998's as I've never had an OTL amp (which is the typical application for that tube).  I also never tried out those rectifiers either -- have you had the opportunity to give them a listen in the Cary?  If so, are they any better than what was in there when you got it (Sovteks, IIRC)?



They were not any worse than the Sovteks, in all honesty I am not sure I could hear much difference.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> _I haVE A PAIR OF 58' COMING IN and it seems like they are without the ribbed For her pleasure plates... so might just go ahead and grab an early 50's _



The 58's are quite good once you replace the solder in the pins.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I was thinking something like "Godzilla's person Offspring" or something for the Philips.  Frankie was named as such due to the squared-off top shape of the bottle, so the Philips name needs something that at least has something relative to it.


These guys ?? ---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...306241?hash=item593603c5c1:g:WJ4AAOSwpdddgNw0


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> The 58's are quite good once you replace the solder in the pins.


Thanks, and I might just try that. On just one of them, then compare the modded tube to the other...interesting.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, and I might just try that. On just one of them, then compare the modded tube to the other...interesting.



On the unmodded one, if you have a tube tester, check it on occasion and you might find the readings are not consistent.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> On the unmodded one, if you have a tube tester, check it on occasion and you might find the readings are not consistent.


So I just ordered an early 50's (just for them ribs) and if the resoldering works out with the 58' I'll do the same with this one as well. Thanks @Paladin79


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> So I just ordered an early 50's (just for them ribs) and if the resoldering works out with the 58' I'll do the same with this one as well. Thanks @Paladin79


Not a problem and contact me if you need some instructions on the re-solder. I have taken a lot of photos that might help a bit.

@bcowen came around to my way of thinking on these and I have done some pretty extensive sound spectrum testing that supported my theory on why the sound changed so much before settling in on the un-soldered tubes.


----------



## MasonStorm

bcowen said:


> Have you guys heard the 1983 - 1987 Philips ECG 6SN7GT's?  Easily the most fantastic sounding 6SN7 ever made. Makes a Bad Boy sound like a worn out GE.  You just have to try them.  You'll never tube roll again as these are "*IT* and not surpassed by anything.  I have about a hundred, and would be willing to sell them for $250 each.  Free shipping too.  Just PM me if interested.


Can you post some pictures for us?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Not a problem and contact me if you need some instructions on the re-solder. I have taken a lot of photos that might help a bit.
> 
> @bcowen came around to my way of thinking on these and I have done some pretty extensive sound spectrum testing that supported my theory on why the sound changed so much before settling in on the un-soldered tubes.





MasonStorm said:


> Can you post some pictures for us?


I believe he was just being facetious.


----------



## MasonStorm

JKDJedi said:


> I believe he was just being facetious.


Aw shoots


----------



## JKDJedi

MasonStorm said:


> Aw shoots


Seems like they all had a glass of wine yesterday and had at it with some online fun...  MISSED THE PARTY.


----------



## Paladin79

My test station for 6sn7's I just finished.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> _I haVE A PAIR OF 58' COMING IN and it seems like they are without the ribbed For her pleasure plates... so might just go ahead and grab an early 50's _



Good luck finding them.  There's a pair on Ebay right now...for $66 with shipping. What?!?  The ribbed plates (pre '57) have become pretty scarce, but are popping up now and then at high prices.  IIRC, I paid $32 _delivered_ for 4 (yes, four) '52's back before everybody started gobbling them up.  Further, as @Paladin79 mentions below, once the pins are resoldered the '58's sound so close to the earlier versions that I can't state with any confidence I could pick them apart in a blind test.  Go into the '60's and things go downhill quickly, but any of the '50's are very good whether ribbed for pleasure or not.  I guess in the grand scheme of NOS tube prices even $54 isn't bad, just that the price on these things has gone up higher and faster than even Tom's stock funds.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> These guys ?? ---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...306241?hash=item593603c5c1:g:WJ4AAOSwpdddgNw0



I just fell out of my chair laughing.  Hmmm...guess that's FOOCL rather than ROFL.    Yes, those are exactly the nasty garbage Godzilla-excrement ones I was referring to.  $155 USD?  I'll be laughing about this one all night. Probably most of tomorrow too.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Good luck finding them.  There's a pair on Ebay right now...for $66 with shipping. What?!?  The ribbed plates (pre '57) have become pretty scarce, but are popping up now and then at high prices.  IIRC, I paid $32 _delivered_ for 4 (yes, four) '52's back before everybody started gobbling them up.  Further, as @Paladin79 mentions below, once the pins are resoldered the '58's sound so close to the earlier versions that I can't state with any confidence I could pick them apart in a blind test.  Go into the '60's and things go downhill quickly, but any of the '50's are very good whether ribbed for pleasure or not.  I guess in the grand scheme of NOS tube prices even $54 isn't bad, just that the price on these things has gone up higher and faster than even Tom's stock funds.


crap, I got just one for near that price.. one left, but your find seems like a steal compared to the one I got. https://www.ebay.com/itm/rare-versi...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They were not any worse than the Sovteks, in all honesty I am not sure I could hear much difference.



That's actually a compliment for a GE!


----------



## JKDJedi

Rolling(Tall) 7N7 Saturday morning... Philco is neck n neck with the Lansdale, and both of these (Lansdale&Philco) just a touch above the Sylvania (in vocals, far right) The Philco has more impact (especially in the bass, which I like). Philco build is similar to Lansdale, differences are black plates (vs grey on the Lansdale) and the mica seem to have a powdered coating (on the Philco) vs the bar metal on the Lansdale. Other than that they are carbon copy, in sound and build. (But you just said the Philco has more impact.. and yeah, the Philco is obviously newer, fresher, than the LAnsdale I have, look at the base) These are easily up there top 5  all time in my little tube box of collections.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I believe he was just being facetious.



Who, me or @Paladin79 ?  I'm always dead serious about everything, so you must mean Tom.  

The tubes in the Ebay link you posted look just like the garbage I have:


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My test station for 6sn7's I just finished.



Sweet!!!

(except those aren't 6SN7's LOL!)


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!!!
> 
> (except those aren't 6SN7's LOL!)


They are equivalents. Are you playing tube Nazi again?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They are equivalents. Are you playing tube Nazi again?



Yes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yes.


Just start at them till your eyes cross and they look like one tube with both cathodes inside it.


----------



## JazzVinyl

JKDJedi said:


> Rolling(Tall) 7N7 Saturday morning... Philco is neck n neck with the Lansdale, and both of these (Lansdale&Philco) just a touch above the Sylvania (in vocals, far right) The Philco has more impact (especially in the bass, which I like). Philco build is similar to Lansdale, differences are black plates (vs grey on the Lansdale) and the mica seem to have a powdered coating (on the Philco) vs the bar metal on the Lansdale. Other than that they are carbon copy, in sound and build. (But you just said the Philco has more impact.. and yeah, the Philco is obviously newer, fresher, than the LAnsdale I have, look at the base) These are easily up there top 5  all time in my little tube box of collections.



Weren't all 7N7's made by Sylvania, except for a tall bottle grey glass, made by NU?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 19, 2019)

JazzVinyl said:


> Weren't all 7N7's made by Sylvania, except for a tall bottle grey glass, made by NU?


I read Sylvania and Raytheon on one write up, and read Sylvania and NU on another , but safe to say Sylvania did the bulk of it. From what I have the Philco and Lansdale are a little taller than the Sylvania made tube, the Sylvania made tube has different micas as well. So it's possible the Philco and Lansdale (Lansdale are military designated) are both NU made?


----------



## Slade01

JazzVinyl said:


> Weren't all 7N7's made by Sylvania, except for a tall bottle grey glass, made by NU?





JKDJedi said:


> I read Sylvania and Raytheon on one write up, and read Sylvania and NU on another , but safe to say Sylvania did the bulk of it. From what I have the Philco and Lansdale are a little taller than the Sylvania made tube, the Sylvania made tube has different micas as well. So it's possible the Philco and Lansdale (Lansdale are military designated) are both NU made?



So for clarification...Sylvania created Loktals with Philco.  Philco had bought the National Union tube manufacturing (the Lansdale, PA) plant.  Majority of 7N7 does come from them.  Raytheon and NU also ends up manufacturing Loktals after the fact.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> So for clarification...Sylvania created Loktals with Philco.  Philco had bought the National Union tube manufacturing (the Lansdale, PA) plant.  Majority of 7N7 does come from them.  Raytheon and NU also ends up manufacturing Loktals after the fact.


My man.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> My man.



I did extensive research on 7N7.  This was borne out of trying to find about specifically about military spec'ed tubes such as Lansdale's Frankie.  I have a milspec Sylvania 7N7, which I was also trying to find more information about - date codes/location, etc.  So I had come across alot of historical information about Loktals in the process.


----------



## attmci

Can you recognize what are those tubes used?


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> I did extensive research on 7N7.  This was borne out of trying to find about specifically about military spec'ed tubes such as Lansdale's Frankie.  I have a milspec Sylvania 7N7, which I was also trying to find more information about - date codes/location, etc.  So I had come across alot of historical information about Loktals in the process.




The box looks pristine, a very good addition to anyone's stash. I bet the tube inside brand new.


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Can you recognize what are those tubes used?



I saw some expensive BVA KT66 tubes (GEC?) and a Sylvania 6SN7GT (VT-231?)

So you scored a beat-up amp loaded with upbeat tubes for a good price?


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> I saw some expensive BVA KT66 tubes (GEC?) and a Sylvania 6SN7GT (VT-231?)
> 
> So you scored a beat-up amp loaded with upbeat tubes for a good price?


Nope, this is from the London Science Museum.


----------



## Paladin79

I meant to post this Friday but got busy with other things. Here is a ranking of the eight tubes that I sent to Schiit Audio for a 6sn7 equivalent shootout. Prior to shipping them some friends and I got together and did a blind listening using music a couple audio engineers from the group had put together for examining different nuances in audio equipment or devices. Many of the tubes are 6sn7 equivalents and most all are US or Russian made. Now that these tubes are back one final testing will be done containing Brimar, Mullard, and various Chinese made tubes.The DAC of choice in the testing was the Aqua La Voce S2 and many folks used the Lyr 3, Bottlehead Crack, et alia.

Final choices, favorite to least favorite were:

Ken Rad black glass VT-231
Melz 1578
CBS/Hytron 5692
RCA Grey Glass (1942 as I recall)
Sylvania Bad Boy
Foton (1954 ribbed plates)
Tung Sol mouse ears
Sylvania 7n7 Frankie

By no means consider this a list of the best tubes made but they were what I had around that I did not mind encasing in PVC. Eight tubes was the number @bcowen and I agreed to for a challenge he and I had going and eight was a good number to send to Schiit Audio to be A/B tested in groups of four. (Maybe that should be ABCD testing).  Scoring was a 100 point system that I have described before and it was the same exact music that caused a very large group to select the Aqua DAC as their favorite. The upcoming test will be with four identical headphone amps but we did not have that option for this test. Personally I have favorite tubes I use in a highly modified BH Crack, and others I prefer in the Lyr 3 so certainly YMMV.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Nope, this is from the London Science Museum.


Maybe it's because I've been looking at these tubes for awhile these last few weeks...but that little guy far left.....Foton.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I meant to post this Friday but got busy with other things. Here is a ranking of the eight tubes that I sent to Schiit Audio for a 6sn7 equivalent shootout. Prior to shipping them some friends and I got together and did a blind listening using music a couple audio engineers from the group had put together for examining different nuances in audio equipment or devices. Many of the tubes are 6sn7 equivalents and most all are US or Russian made. Now that these tubes are back one final testing will be done containing Brimar, Mullard, and various Chinese made tubes.The DAC of choice in the testing was the Aqua La Voce S2 and many folks used the Lyr 3, Bottlehead Crack, et alia.
> 
> Final choices, favorite to least favorite were:
> 
> ...


Just need the Melz and Hytron and my Mount Rushmore is complete!!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Just need the Melz and Hytron and my Mount Rushmore is complete!!



Do any of the rankings come close to what you prefer since you have six of the eight?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 20, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Do any of the rankings come close to what you prefer since you have six of the eight?


I don't have a Slyvania Frankie (and think there's no such thing really) but have four Frankie's on hand, and Foton on the way, so technically I only have half this group, and would say that this might be spot on. Would love to blind test these on the Darkvoice amp (which is said to be darker sounding?) And wonder if Schitt amps are brighter in general, so the blind test with a darker amp could be a lot different. We're these blind tested with Bottle Crack amps? going back to your post and rereading it..  And want to add, it would be really interesting if a Sylvania Chrome Dome was thrown into the mix)


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> The box looks pristine, a very good addition to anyone's stash. I bet the tube inside brand new.


I cuncur, 43' you kidding me!?


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 20, 2019)

I don't have a Slyvania Frankie (and think there's no such thing really) but have four Frankie's on hand, and Foton on the way, so technically I only have half this group, and would say that this might be spot on. Would love to blind test these on the Darkvoice amp (which is said to be darker sounding?) And wonder if Schitt amps are brighter in general, so the blind test with a darker amp could be a lot different. We're these blind tested with Bottle Crack amps?


Some of us used the BH Crack. Mine is highly customized to my preferences and a few people used that. It will be a while before I build the amps for the next round of testing and honestly with the PVC they may be a little tall for our purposes anyway. It is feasible I could send these to you to hear blind. Once the numbers on the top of the cylinders are scrambled you would have no idea which is which. Bill can confirm this.

The 7N7 I used was built by Sylvania to the best of my recollection but may have had another or no name on it.

The BH crack I used is on the right.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> I saw some expensive BVA KT66 tubes (GEC?) and a Sylvania 6SN7GT (VT-231?)
> 
> So you scored a beat-up amp loaded with upbeat tubes for a good price?



Good eye!  Those are definitely GEC KT-66's up front.  I bought a complete set of those plus a couple spares for the Cary V-12i monoblocks from Uncle Kevin (Upscale Audio) many years ago.  With 12 output tubes per amp...well you can do the math.  Have sold them off over the years as they didn't make those amps sing like the much less expensive Ei KT-90 Type 3 did at the time.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Some of us used the BH Crack. Mine is highly customized to my preferences and a few people used that. It will be a while before I build the amps for the next round of testing and honestly with the PVC they may be a little tall for our purposes anyway. It is feasible I could send these to you to hear blind. Once the numbers on the top of the cylinders are scrambled you would have no idea which is which. Bill can confirm this.


Count me in, you guys have my address, you know where to find me.  Seriously though, this would be an honor.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I cuncur, 43' you kidding me!?



Yes sir. True NOS.  The tube was in super pristine condition.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Yes sir. True NOS.  The tube was in super pristine condition.


It's 5:30 am in the morning over here...and EVERYBODY IS AWAKE!!!! Lol.. Good Morning fellows, enjoy your coffee and the rest of your day!!


----------



## bcowen (Oct 20, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Some of us used the BH Crack. Mine is highly customized to my preferences and a few people used that. It will be a while before I build the amps for the next round of testing and honestly with the PVC they may be a little tall for our purposes anyway. It is feasible I could send these to you to hear blind. Once the numbers on the top of the cylinders are scrambled you would have no idea which is which. Bill can confirm this.
> 
> The 7N7 I used was built by Sylvania to the best of my recollection but may have had another or no name on it.



Yup, I can confirm that.  Even my X-Ray vision couldn't see anything telltale from a visible perspective.    The Ken-Rad and the RCA were included in the stealth tubes Tom sent me and were both very pleasant surprises. I hadn't heard either of them before, and IIRC they were both my top two favorites from that group.

Question Tom:  is the ranking you provided above from your group, or the ranking you got back from the Schiit, or just a combined/cumulative ranking of all that have listened to them in blind conditions? 

And just a note to @JKDJedi : that CBS/Hytron 5692 is a bit of a chameleon. It's been a (if not *the*) top contender in most Cary pieces I've owned and also sounds fantastic in the Vali 2. In the Lyr 3?  Kinda pretty OK sounding, but that's about all.  Just my opinion and preference obviously, but I sent one to @Ripper2860 and his conclusion was similar in the Lyr.  Pair it with the right amp and it sings, but can be rather mediocre in others.  Of course, the same can be said with most tubes.  May knock your socks off in the Darkvoice...never know 'til you try.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> It's 5:30 am in the morning over here...and EVERYBODY IS AWAKE!!!! Lol.. Good Morning fellows, enjoy your coffee and the rest of your day!!



And you too.  I slept in this morning, and am only through my first pot of coffee at this point.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 20, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Yup, I can confirm that.  Even my X-Ray vision couldn't see anything telltale from a visible perspective.    The Ken-Rad and the RCA were included in the stealth tubes Tom sent me and were both very pleasant surprises. I hadn't heard either of them before, and IIRC they were both my top two favorites from that group.
> 
> Question Tom:  is the ranking you provided above from your group, or the ranking you got back from the Schiit, or just a combined/cumulative ranking of all that have listened to them in blind conditions?
> 
> And just a note to @JKDJedi : that CBS/Hytron 5692 is a bit of a chameleon. It's been a (if not *the*) top contender in most Cary pieces I've owned and also sounds fantastic in the Vali 2. In the Lyr 3?  Kinda pretty OK sounding, but that's about all.  Just my opinion and preference obviously, but I sent one to @Ripper2860 and his conclusion was similar in the Lyr.  Pair it with the right amp and it sings, but can be rather mediocre in others.  Of course, the same can be said with most tubes.  May knock your socks off in the Darkvoice...never know 'til you try.



Ok I will say it again. This ranking was prior to the tubes going to Schiit audio for their shootout, not a combined ranking, just my group. Some of the friends are professionals, a few are musicians, and a couple just have bat-ears.  It has a few upgrades, I put a couple crappy tubes in with a GE to confuse Bill but I left all of those out, and I changed out the 7n7 as well.


 This is not the ranking from Schiit audio, that is talked about some in the AudioHead piece but they were using the tubes as buffers.  I am going to set up one more test using whatever top 6sn7 equivalents I can lay my hands on, I am helping with design and building those. Class A and I believe my friends decided on Senn HD 800's as the headphone of choice for this blind test.

I estimate maybe 25 6sn7 equivalents for that challenge, and because of the cages that can conceal most any tube, we can use 6j5 and 7A4 pairs I insisted on that.

Oh and I offered to send the eight tubes to JKDJedi so he can hear the tubes he has not heard. Part of this to me is a way for a person to listen, decide what they like, and then maybe pursue those tubes. If you think the Foton is the best sounding tube in the bunch, you would save a lot of money compared to buying several I have in the eight tube group. Price range for these can be $20 to $150 roughly.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will say it again.



You obviously haven't had *your* coffee yet.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You obviously haven't had *your* coffee yet.


Just two cups for me. When it gets to be six AM I have one cat on my chest and a kitten who has learned that if he knocks over lamps and starts batting everything else he can find across the room I will most likely get up to see what just went crashing to the floor. 

Sorry if my wording was unclear, I can change, if I have to, I guess.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Just two cups for me. When it gets to be six AM I have one cat on my chest and a kitten who has learned that if he knocks over lamps and starts batting everything else he can find across the room I will most likely get up to see what just went crashing to the floor.
> 
> Sorry if my wording was unclear, I can change, if I have to, I guess.



Cats have clever ways of training us.  Both of mine have been expert teachers.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I meant to post this Friday but got busy with other things. Here is a ranking of the eight tubes that I sent to Schiit Audio for a 6sn7 equivalent shootout. Prior to shipping them some friends and I got together and did a blind listening using music a couple audio engineers from the group had put together for examining different nuances in audio equipment or devices. Many of the tubes are 6sn7 equivalents and most all are US or Russian made. Now that these tubes are back one final testing will be done containing Brimar, Mullard, and various Chinese made tubes.The DAC of choice in the testing was the Aqua La Voce S2 and many folks used the Lyr 3, Bottlehead Crack, et alia.
> 
> Final choices, favorite to least favorite were:
> 
> ...


This confirms you badboy is not genuine.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> This confirms you badboy is not genuine.



And yet @bcowen named it blind lol. 
Not genuine as in someone is faking a tube from the 50’s and has all the internals correct?

They are good tubes no doubt but there are other brands out there. Have you heard all the other types mentioned?


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> And yet @bcowen named it blind lol.
> Not genuine as in someone is faking a tube from the 50’s and has all the internals correct?
> 
> They are good tubes no doubt but there are other brands out there. Have you heard all the other types mentioned?


Hmmm, now I may have to worry about his talent to identify the GEs. 
One of his favorite tubes is rated at the end of the list, and this will be a key financial risk (think of his followers).


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 20, 2019)

Bill was very accurate in the blind test and he may have specifics he likes but he also really liked the Ken Rad and RCA. There were some decent tubes in the eight listed above.

It is considerably different to know which tube you are listening to with all its associated hype. We all have specific likes and dislikes. These tests used 25 criteria and if the 7n7 was rated higher it would have scored as such.  I own several and do not listen to them very often but YMMV.

I have the greatest respect for Bill’s judgement but over a given couple of days these are the results I got. Now I cannot say there was any Marylin Manson in the test music, that might have caused the Frankie to rate higher.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Hmmm, now I may have to worry about his talent to identify the GEs.
> One of his favorite tubes is rated at the end of the list, and this will be a key financial risk (think of his followers).



The tube included in the steak dinner challenge was not a Frankie.  It was a tall bottle Sylvania 7N7, but not a Frankentube.   

The Bad Boy, OTOH, was the real deal.  Very nice sounding tube to be sure, but I have several and they rate at least 6th on my personal list of top tubes.  That comes with the usual caveat -- that's *my* list and wholly dependent on my preferences and my equipment.  Had Tom included a CBS/Hytron 5692 in the group, it would have fared rather poorly I think because I was doing all listening in the Lyr 3.  Had I been using the Vali 2, the ranking of the CBS would have been quite different.  Perhaps the Bad Boy is subject to the same fate, but in the Lyr 3 it's just a nice sounding tube and doesn't merit all the hoopla that surrounds it.  YMMV, of course.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The tube included in the steak dinner challenge was not a Frankie.  It was a tall bottle Sylvania 7N7, but not a Frankentube.
> 
> The Bad Boy, OTOH, was the real deal.  Very nice sounding tube to be sure, but I have several and they rate at least 6th on my personal list of top tubes.  That comes with the usual caveat -- that's *my* list and wholly dependent on my preferences and my equipment.  Had Tom included a CBS/Hytron 5692 in the group, it would have fared rather poorly I think because I was doing all listening in the Lyr 3.  Had I been using the Vali 2, the ranking of the CBS would have been quite different.  Perhaps the Bad Boy is subject to the same fate, but in the Lyr 3 it's just a nice sounding tube and doesn't merit all the hoopla that surrounds it.  YMMV, of course.



The 7N7 was swapped out for this and the Schiit challenge as I mentioned earlier. The only limits I faced in Bills challenge was not to use one specific brand that might sound worse than GE to Bill. Half or more of his tubes were high quality IMHO.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Bill was very accurate in the blind test and he may have specifics he likes but he also really liked the Ken Rad and RCA. There were some decent tubes in the eight listed above.
> 
> It is considerably different to know which tube you are listening to with all its associated hype. We all have specific likes and dislikes. These tests used 25 criteria and if the 7n7 was rated higher it would have scored as such.  I own several and do not listen to them very often but YMMV.
> 
> I have the greatest respect for Bill’s judgement but over a given couple of days these are the results I got. Now I cannot say there was any Marylin Manson in the test music, that might have caused the Frankie to rate higher.


Some Miles Davis (Kind Of Blue)? 7N7 Frankie plays that well.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Some Miles Davis (Kind Of Blue)? 7N7 Frankie plays that well.


I do not recall that being in the mix but there was certainly a wide range of music. Some was specifically recorded for this and other testing. Every hear the Chesky samples demonstrating specific characteristics? This was more like that, you knew what to listen for then did a comparison. Spanish Harlem sung by Rebecca Pidgeon is a good example.  Each of us might have some favorite test songs but this is geared to a large group.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I do not recall that being in the mix but there was certainly a wide range of music. Some was specifically recorded for this and other testing. Every hear the Chesky samples demonstrating specific characteristics? This was more like that, you knew what to listen for then did a comparison. Spanish Harlem sung by Rebecca Pidgeon is a good example.  Each of us might have some favorite test songs but this is geared to a large group.


Kind of Blue is the most sold jazz album of all time, and yup Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon is a classic, thanks to Tyco Dogg for sharing that in one of his 6sn7 comparison videos .... But.... Miles Davis Kind Of Blue... If you can get past the Bill Cosby interview... This video explains what this album did for jazz music.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 20, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Kind of Blue is the most sold jazz album of all time, and yup Spanish Harlem by Rebecca Pidgeon is a classic, thanks to Tyco Dogg for sharing that in one of his 6sn7 comparison videos .... But.... Miles Davis Kind Of Blue... If you can get past the Bill Cosby interview... This video explains what this album did for jazz music.




It is a great and popular album no doubt.
Spanish Harlem was not in there either, I did not do the selecting.  
Part of my background and education is engineering but it is not audio engineering. Some in my group are more well versed so I yield to their expertise.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> The tube included in the steak dinner challenge was not a Frankie.  It was a tall bottle Sylvania 7N7, but not a Frankentube.
> 
> The Bad Boy, OTOH, was the real deal.  Very nice sounding tube to be sure, but I have several and they rate at least 6th on my personal list of top tubes.  That comes with the usual caveat -- that's *my* list and wholly dependent on my preferences and my equipment.  Had Tom included a CBS/Hytron 5692 in the group, it would have fared rather poorly I think because I was doing all listening in the Lyr 3.  Had I been using the Vali 2, the ranking of the CBS would have been quite different.  Perhaps the Bad Boy is subject to the same fate, but in the Lyr 3 it's just a nice sounding tube and doesn't merit all the hoopla that surrounds it.  YMMV, of course.


OK, we all agree to replace the "badboy" with a 6SN7W. A ECC33 and this will make it 10. 

https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-6sn7gt


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> The 7N7 was swapped out for this and the Schiit challenge as I mentioned earlier. The only limits I faced in Bills challenge was not to use one specific brand that might sound worse than GE to Bill. Half or more of his tubes were high quality IMHO.


It's very difficult to push up the price of 7N7. Good luck!!!! 









I have a small box full of these. LOL


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> OK, we all agree to replace the "badboy" with a 6SN7W. A ECC33 and this will make it 10.
> 
> https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-6sn7gt


As I said, there will be one more test that is less limited on choices. Some of the odd shaped Chinese tubes would not have fit in the PVC, and while I wanted to give Bill and Schiit some decent choices, I invested in excess of $1,000 in tubes, cable and connectors, splitter and switch for this. I also spent three or four weekends on it. Want to set something up? Go for it lol.  There may well be thirty 6sn7 equivalents in my final tests. Friends can lend tubes without risk of damage like I did with the PVC.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> OK, we all agree to replace the "badboy" with a 6SN7W. A ECC33 and this will make it 10.
> 
> https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-6sn7gt


I just got my Bad Boys (and they sound good, not as good as my Chrome Domes but they sound good) so I agree to disagree, keep them in, what ever that means.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> As I said, there will be one more test that is less limited on choices. Some of the odd shaped Chinese tubes would not have fit in the PVC, and while I wanted to give Bill and Schiit some decent choices, I invested in excess of $1,000 in tubes, cable and connectors, splitter and switch for this. I also spent three or four weekends on it. Want to set something up? Go for it lol.  There may well be thirty 6sn7 equivalents in my final tests. Friends can lend tubes without risk of damage like I did with the PVC.


Someone must have purchased all those ECC33s. This is the only one I can find:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ECC33-6SN7...315063?hash=item420a664137:g:0JkAAOSwTEVdgQpU


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Someone must have purchased all those ECC33s. This is the only one I can find:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/ECC33-6SN7...315063?hash=item420a664137:g:0JkAAOSwTEVdgQpU


Mullard and Brimar will be in the final test group and friends have those. There is also supposed to be a very rare tube that is worth serious money but the owner is keeping us in the dark till the tests occur.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Mullard and Brimar will be in the final test group and friends have those. There is also supposed to be a very rare tube that is worth serious money but the owner is keeping us in the dark till the tests occur.


Now we're all in the dark....please keep us posted!!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Now we're all in the dark....please keep us posted!!


I will, this will not be a quick process, Jason at Schiit can just grab four amps or preamps and do a shootout, I will be building ours and I have several projects in the works.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Mullard and Brimar will be in the final test group and friends have those. There is also supposed to be a very rare tube that is worth serious money but the owner is keeping us in the dark till the tests occur.


I hope it's a B65.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> I hope it's a B65.


GEC is my guess as well. I do all right but some of these guys have a lot more invested in gear than I want to commit.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> OK, we all agree to replace the "badboy" with a 6SN7W. A ECC33 and this will make it 10.
> 
> https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-6sn7gt



I *do* like the 6SN7W better than the Bad Boy, and I only have the bakelite base version, not the metal base.  Haven't ever tried an ECC33. But #10 won't be a Chinese tube...in my system anyway.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now I cannot say there was any Marylin Manson in the test music, that might have caused the Frankie to rate higher.



Actually, Marilyn and a '50's Foton are a match made in heaven.  Or I guess if we're talking Manson, a match made in hell would be more appropriate.  LOL!


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> GEC is my guess as well. I do all right but some of these guys have a lot more invested in gear than I want to commit.


Yup, a guy has gears in the basement which worth much more than the property.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I *do* like the 6SN7W better than the Bad Boy, and I only have the bakelite base version, not the metal base.  Haven't ever tried an ECC33. But #10 won't be a Chinese tube...in my system anyway.


The metal base is better according to the memory.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I *do* like the 6SN7W better than the Bad Boy, and I only have the bakelite base version, not the metal base.  Haven't ever tried an ECC33. But #10 won't be a Chinese tube...in my system anyway.


Yeah this is just for testing, I know people with some of the more costly tubes and no I’ll affects.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Yup, a guy has gears in the basement which worth much more than the property.



I rarely pay a lot for my gear but I know a lot of people in the industry.


----------



## attmci

attmci said:


> The metal base is better according to the memory.


OK, it's much better. Larger soundstages and clarities for my system. It has nothing to do with the metal base, most of these has cracks even NIB.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Someone must have purchased all those ECC33s. This is the only one I can find:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/ECC33-6SN7...315063?hash=item420a664137:g:0JkAAOSwTEVdgQpU



Speaking of ECC33's, anybody ever tried an ECC40?  Needs an adapter to plug into a 6SN7 socket, but specs look in the ballpark otherwise.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Speaking of ECC33's, anybody ever tried an ECC40?  Needs an adapter to plug into a 6SN7 socket, but specs look in the ballpark otherwise.


Ask these guys over there. I no longer collect mini 6SN7Gt...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts.558352/


----------



## JazzVinyl

Have you folks tried the GEC B-729?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-B729-ECC804-Valve-Tube-NOS-V28/173448536561

Good stuff


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Final choices, favorite to least favorite were:
> 
> Ken Rad black glass VT-231
> Melz 1578
> ...



Question on this ranking - due to the fact its a numerical point system, can you disclose how close or far apart were the top 4?


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 21, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Question on this ranking - due to the fact its a numerical point system, can you disclose how close or far apart were the top 4?


Certainly, I will look up the info at home this evening and list all eight.

As I recall some of the numbers were pretty close. I think historically folks might listen to  five or six elements of sound as they listen, perhaps more if they are well trained. There is no way around not covering the whole spectrum in these tests and while say bass, mids or spacing might be incredible and rate the top score those things alone are not enough to propel a tube to the top since that only accounts for 12 points or a little more than 10% of the overall experience. This is not exactly casual, fun listening but it is possible to come away a better listener, IMHO.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Rolling(Tall) 7N7 Saturday morning... Philco is neck n neck with the Lansdale, and both of these (Lansdale&Philco) just a touch above the Sylvania (in vocals, far right) The Philco has more impact (especially in the bass, which I like). Philco build is similar to Lansdale, differences are black plates (vs grey on the Lansdale) and the mica seem to have a powdered coating (on the Philco) vs the bar metal on the Lansdale. Other than that they are carbon copy, in sound and build. (But you just said the Philco has more impact.. and yeah, the Philco is obviously newer, fresher, than the LAnsdale I have, look at the base) These are easily up there top 5  all time in my little tube box of collections.



@JKDJedi have you ever rolled any 7AF7s by any chance?


----------



## attmci

Slade01 said:


> Question on this ranking - due to the fact its a numerical point system, can you disclose how close or far apart were the top 4?


All top 8 are very close.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi have you ever rolled any 7AF7s by any chance?


None


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Certainly, I will look up the info at home this evening and list all eight.
> 
> As I recall some of the numbers were pretty close. I think historically folks might listen to  five or six elements of sound as they listen, perhaps more if they are well trained. There is no way around not covering the whole spectrum in these tests and while say bass, mids or spacing might be incredible and rate the top score those things alone are not enough to propel a tube to the top since that only accounts for 12 points or a little more than 10% of the overall experience. This is not exactly casual, fun listening but it is possible to come away a better listener, IMHO.



More the reason why i'd like to see how close they were between each other, because with a 100 point scale and a more critical approach to it - definitely gives it some serious merit.  For instance, I always, always see the comparisons between the Ken Rad Black Glass and RCA Gray Glass - i've always seen them allegedly neck and neck, but this ranking has RCA two spots down.  Now if you show me that the Gray Glass is there +/- only a few points from the top 3, then its probably one of the greatest values in 6SN7 history with its current price point.  But yeah, seeing how close some tubes came compared to others is definitely telling.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 21, 2019)

attmci said:


> All top 8 are very close.



There were only eight compared, I will post the numbers fairly soon

Ken-Rad black glass   93.4
Melz 1578                    91.7
CBS/Hytron  5692        90.4
RCA grey glass            89.7
Sylvania Bad Boy        88.3
Foton 1954                  84.7
Tung Sol Mouse ears   80.1
Sylvania 7n7 Frankie   75.4

All tubes had some merit, strengths and weaknesses with this particular test panel.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> There were only eight compared, I will post the numbers fairly soon
> 
> Ken-Rad black glass   93.4
> Melz 1578                    91.7
> ...


You probably mentioned it 500 times here already, and might bare repeating, these tubes were all tested on the same amp and dac throughout, nobody brought in their own equipment? And what was the tubed amp used for this test?


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 21, 2019)

Two were used, a Lyr 3 and a Bottlehead Crack. If folks had a preference they used whichever they liked.

DAC was an Aqua La Voce 3


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 21, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Two were used, a Lyr 3 and a Bottlehead Crack. If folks had a preference they used whichever they liked.
> 
> DAC was an Aqua La Voce 3


and the bottlehead used 6as7g/6080/5998/7236? And a ladder dac, interesting. (my 1000th post.... Yeeeee HAHH!!!)  #Celebrating


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> There were only eight compared, I will post the numbers fairly soon
> 
> Ken-Rad black glass   93.4
> Melz 1578                    91.7
> ...


Fai


Paladin79 said:


> There were only eight compared, I will post the numbers fairly soon
> 
> Ken-Rad black glass   93.4
> Melz 1578                    91.7
> ...


Fair enough.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> and the bottlehead used 6as7g/6080/5998/7236? And a ladder dac, interesting. (my 1000th post.... Yeeeee HAHH!!!)  #Celebrating


Tung Sol 5998 this time. The Crack is highly modified to my likes. This DAC is the favorite of this group, voted best of 20 we tried.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Tung Sol 5998 this time. The Crack is highly modified to my likes. This DAC is the favorite of this group, voted best of 20 we tried.


5998 it is, gonna be tube rolling some of those this week.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> 5998 it is, gonna be tube rolling some of those this week.



My work is pretty easy to find, google steampunk bottlehead crack, images.9 out of the first 10 images are mine, well on my search anyway. The black one with carbon fiber I built for my son.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> My work is pretty easy to find, google steampunk bottlehead crack, images.9 out of the first 10 images are mine, well on my search anyway. The black one with carbon fiber I built for my son.


Thats a work of art there, beautiful.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Thats a work of art there, beautiful.



Thanks I have had some offers on it but that is most likely a one time build. I made a headphone stand and modified headphones to go with it, and cables of course. It is pretty stable, one inch quartered oak and nearly three pounds of 1/8 inch copper plate.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks I have had some offers on it but that is most likely a one time build. I made a headphone stand and modified headphones to go with it, and cables of course. It is pretty stable, one inch quartered oak and nearly three pounds of 1/8 inch copper plate.


So speed rolling through some of my tubes, Bad Boy, RCA GG, Mouse Ears, 7N7 Frankie, Ken Rad, ... Few of them I've forgotten how they sound


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 21, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> So speed rolling through some of my tubes, Bad Boy, RCA GG, Mouse Ears, 7N7 Frankie, Ken Rad, ... Few of them I've forgotten how they sound


Switch boxes and multiple amps really help. Imagine going back and forth and just listening for any element. Then you get down to a couple tubes and go back and forth all you want. It sounds like you have quite a few of the eight and your opinion may differ greatly but it is an interesting process nonetheless. The four amps I build will be as exact as I can make them, I will cut every wire and wire all components point to point.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Ask these guys over there. I no longer collect mini 6SN7Gt...
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts.558352/



That thread seems to be kinda dead, and most of the chatter is about ECC35's that are more of a 6SL7 equivalent.  Thanks though.

So I guess I'll be the guinea pig on the ECC40.  I mean _someone_ has to do it, so I ordered an adapter.  If it turns out to be the 2nd coming, I'll stash up and then let everyone know.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The four amps I build will be as exact as I can make them, I will cut every wire and wire all components point to point.



If you cut all the wires, how is the amp even going to work?  

(sorry...couldn't help myself)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 5998 it is, gonna be tube rolling some of those this week.



Is that a picture of your amp with the WE 421A?  Sweeeeeeeeeeeet!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Switch boxes and multiple amps really help. Imagine going back and forth and just listening for any element. Then you get down to a couple tubes and go back and forth all you want. It sounds like you have quite a few of the eight and your opinion may differ greatly but it is an interesting process nonetheless. The four amps I build will be as exact as I can make them, I will cut every wire and wire all components point to point.


And you know someones gonna use the "SYnergy" word here...it wasnt me.. I'm just curious about it as everyone else is here (or not), of course the list is gonna be different.. I can hear it already, I almost want to do this for the Darkvoice thread. Excellent idea, kudos.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If you cut all the wires, how is the amp even going to work?
> 
> 
> 
> Lol I am starting to like the idea of not building you a custom Bottlehead crack more and more with each passing day.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


>


Almost fell of my chair... L M F A O !!!


----------



## JKDJedi

great.. this is not as easy as I thought it was gonna be.., spots 2, 3 and 4 are awesome in their own way.. can I borrow your 5 Bottle Head Cracks?  @Paladin79


----------



## Paladin79

I have been swapping out the eight tubes in the test just to see if I can pick them out. Top numbers removed. The one that always jumps out easily for me is the Melz 1578, an unusual sound, mids quite forward. I felt four of them in a Freya was too good, another gentleman told me the same thing the other night.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> And you know someones gonna use the "SYnergy" word here...it wasnt me.. I'm just curious about it as everyone else is here (or not), of course the list is gonna be different.. I can hear it already, I almost want to do this for the Darkvoice thread. Excellent idea, kudos.



I'd probably say it.  It matters.  You were thinking it too asking about what power tube was used in the BHC test.  I was wondering the same thing.  DV is no different.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 21, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> great.. this is not as easy as I thought it was gonna be.., spots 2, 3 and 4 are awesome in their own way.. can I borrow your 5 Bottle Head Cracks?  @Paladin79


I just have one now, and four other amps to build of mostly my own design. The tubes were at Schiit audio, they had plenty to choose from. I will loan you tubes but the steampunk amp does not leave my house lol.

Bed for me, busy days ahead.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 21, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> I have been swapping out the eight tubes in the test just to see if I can pick them out. Top numbers removed. The one that always jumps out easily for me is the Melz 1578, an unusual sound, mids quite forward. I felt four of them in a Freya was too good, another gentleman told me the same thing the other night.


Metz 1578.... copy


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> None



I was just curious as I know you're blazing through tubes and 7AF7 is near in the same vane as the 7N7 using the same adapter.  I just got a sylvania 7AF7 myself.  This thing has round plates!  This is gonna be interesting.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I was just curious as I know you're blazing through tubes and 7AF7 is near in the same vane as the 7N7 using the same adapter.  I just got a sylvania 7AF7 myself.  This thing has round plates!  This is gonna be interesting.


Did a quick search on it and sounds promising, let me know how it rocks Slade.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Just need the Melz and Hytron and my Mount Rushmore is complete!!




Holy....you're a fast runner


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> I was just curious as I know you're blazing through tubes and 7AF7 is near in the same vane as the 7N7 using the same adapter.  I just got a sylvania 7AF7 myself.  This thing has round plates!  This is gonna be interesting.




LOL...6SN7 tube rolling soon evolves into adapter rolling....I think I need to grab myself some adapters to try new tubes.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Metz 1578.... copy



I saw some Matz 1578 tubes from 50's and some from 80's...not sure if they have significant changes in sound like the Foton's do.

Make sure to check it out before you hit the BUY button.


----------



## Gazny

Any recommendations for a sub $30 preamp tube? Looking for something unique sounding.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Good eye!  Those are definitely GEC KT-66's up front.  I bought a complete set of those plus a couple spares for the Cary V-12i monoblocks from Uncle Kevin (Upscale Audio) many years ago.  With 12 output tubes per amp...well you can do the math.  Have sold them off over the years as they didn't make those amps sing like the much less expensive Ei KT-90 Type 3 did at the time.



 LOL...running this amp with GEC's will definitely cost you a fortune....2 x 12 x GEC KT66 = 24 x $350 =


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> LOL...6SN7 tube rolling soon evolves into adapter rolling....I think I need to grab myself some adapters to try new tubes.



Lol. Sorry.  I digress at this point and will probably lift this into the DV tube rolling thread.  But yeah...adapters add an extra element of fun for sure.  

That being said, I am glad to see a serious listing/rating of straight 6SN7.  Through my journey, and not surprisingly, I parsed down my 6SN7 tube collection to just RCA Gray Glass and Tung Sol mouse ears. Seeing as it ranked as high compared to other tubes sort of validates what I hear.  So yeah...these blind test results are awesome and interesting to hear about.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Lol. Sorry.  I digress at this point and will probably lift this into the DV tube rolling thread.  But yeah...adapters add an extra element of fun for sure.
> 
> That being said, I am glad to see a serious listing/rating of straight 6SN7.  Through my journey, and not surprisingly, I parsed down my 6SN7 tube collection to just RCA Gray Glass and Tung Sol mouse ears. Seeing as it ranked as high compared to other tubes sort of validates what I hear.  So yeah...these blind test results are awesome and interesting to hear about.



LOL...you did not digress at all buddy...all 6SN7's and equivalent are welcome here. 

It's just there're so many 6SN7-equivalent...6CG7/6GU7/12BH7/7N7/7AF7/etc...I'm kinda getting lost, not knowing which direction to go....  

If you really like RCA Grey Glass, you should really try the Brimar 6SN7GT, I have both and prefer the Brimar a little bit...both have amazing mids. The RCA Grey Glass is definitely a great value as you suggested earlier. They can easily be found under $30.

Tung Sol mouse ear is pretty unique, I can only say that. It sounds kinda skinny to my taste but with great clarity...definitely a keeper, might sound super for some genre. I have 3 mouse ears, but unfortunately 2 of them are noisy (with little hums/cracks from time to time), and all 3 have cracks in the base....not sure if they are common problems to mouse ears.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 22, 2019)

cddc said:


> LOL...you did not digress at all buddy...all 6SN7's and equivalent are welcome here.
> 
> It's just there're so many 6SN7-equivalent...6CG7/6GU7/12BH7/7N7/7AF7/etc...I'm kinda getting lost, not knowing which direction to go....
> 
> ...


And yup...cracks in the bass seems to be common with the mousketeer. Sounds great with my setup, I had it tucked away for awhile and when I saw it In the Bottlehead list...took it for a spin earlier, it's a nice surprise, hanging in there with the top.


----------



## JKDJedi

Gazny said:


> Any recommendations for a sub $30 preamp tube? Looking for something unique sounding.


Seems to be the Mouse ears or the RCA grey glass if you want something that makes you hold your breath for a second and think holy $^1t this sounds awesome... (For $30)


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 22, 2019)

cddc said:


> LOL...you did not digress at all buddy...all 6SN7's and equivalent are welcome here.
> 
> It's just there're so many 6SN7-equivalent...6CG7/6GU7/12BH7/7N7/7AF7/etc...I'm kinda getting lost, not knowing which direction to go....
> 
> ...


 Which Brimer do you have?


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Which Brimer do you have?



Just a Brimar 6SN7GT clear glass...haven't really checked its code or date yet


----------



## LoryWiv

Gazny said:


> Any recommendations for a sub $30 preamp tube? Looking for something unique sounding.


I recently switched from NOS 1948 RCA JAN 6SN7GT to the new production Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. These latter can be had for < $30 and I prefer them to the vintage tubes which cost far more.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 22, 2019)

My favorite Melz 1578 to date is the 1963, later I will look to see if they are still available. I changed the solder on ten of them so I had plenty to sample.

rz6apq@gmail.com

You can email Edward at the above address, he may still have some of the Melz 1578's.

The 63's are my favorite but YMMV.


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> I recently switched from NOS 1948 RCA JAN 6SN7GT to the new production Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. These latter can be had for < $30 and I prefer them to the vintage tubes which cost far more.



I have at least a dozen of the Tung Sol and they are certainly an all right tube, I know Jason at Schiit is switching from those to current production JJ's he likes better. He also has some equipment I do not have to compare performance. I am sure no one hear wants to hear about such testing and they want to rely on the human ear alone but I like to use a combination of both, for some applications.


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> LOL...you did not digress at all buddy...all 6SN7's and equivalent are welcome here.
> 
> It's just there're so many 6SN7-equivalent...6CG7/6GU7/12BH7/7N7/7AF7/etc...I'm kinda getting lost, not knowing which direction to go....
> 
> ...



Yes the Brimar.  I've heard quite alot about it and hoping to give it a try at some point...I know a lot of people rave about this tube as well.  

Don't know if anyone here has had any experience with the National Union Black Glass?  Is it comparable with the Ken Rad?


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Yes the Brimar.  I've heard quite alot about it and hoping to give it a try at some point...I know a lot of people rave about this tube as well.
> 
> Don't know if anyone here has had any experience with the National Union Black Glass?  Is it comparable with the Ken Rad?


I own some of each and prefer the Ken-Rads, the NU to me is comparable to some of the more common RCA and Sylvania tubes.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I own some of each and prefer the Ken-Rads, the NU to me is comparable to some of the more common RCA and Sylvania tubes.



Thank you for your service.    You just saved me !


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Thank you for your service.    You just saved me !


I may grab an extra Lyr 3 for some quick AB testing and see how they do. If I do not have much spare time I could always just use four of those, it is pretty easy to run the outputs to a four way switch box and I already made a signal splitter I could run from my Gungnir to the four Lyr 3's. It is worth a thought anyway and considering the flat top on the Lyr, I could make the cages pretty quickly. I have built copper mesh inside a copper frame before and while it lets heat out, the mesh is so fine you cannot see what is underneath.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Did a quick search on it and sounds promising, let me know how it rocks Slade.



Right now the 7AF7 is perfection only if you are running it with a 7236 (or probably a 5998).  With this configuration  It is the epitome of classic round plate sound.  Balanced and full especially in the mid-range. I'd say medium soundstage but satisfying.  I am wondering if it is due to the fact that the 7AF7 is a low gain version of the 7N7, the higher gain power tubes kind bring it back into balance in my opinion (in respect to the DV amp).    I tried running it with a 6AS7G and 6080WA...sounds thin, with recessed vocals otherwise.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Right now the 7AF7 is perfection only if you are running it with a 7236 (or probably a 5998).  With this configuration  It is the epitome of classic round plate sound.  Balanced and full especially in the mid-range. I'd say medium soundstage but satisfying.  I am wondering if it is due to the fact that the 7AF7 is a low gain version of the 7N7, the higher gain power tubes kind bring it back into balance in my opinion (in respect to the DV amp).    I tried running it with a 6AS7G and 6080WA...sounds thin, with recessed vocals otherwise.




Interesting, low gain version of 6SN7 (mu=20) is 12AU7 (mu=16), and I don't like 12AU7s in general due to their narrower soundstage vs. 6SN7s. 7AF7 sounds like a 12AU7 in a larger envelope per your impression.


----------



## cddc

Did a quick search and found 7AF7 also has mu=16 and draws 0.3A (v.s. mu=20 and 0.6A in 6SN7), exactly the same parameters as 12AU7. But it seems doing well in your amp despite having a narrower soundstage.


----------



## Slade01 (Oct 22, 2019)

cddc said:


> Interesting, low gain version of 6SN7 (mu=20) is 12AU7 (mu=16), and I don't like 12AU7s in general due to their narrower soundstage vs. 6SN7s. 7AF7 sounds like a 12AU7 in a larger envelope per your impression.



Well the 7AF7 mu=16 as well, so i think you are spot on.  The sound stage is more narrow than the 7N7/6SN7 for sure.  But whats to like about it is the round plate signature.  I do get the hefty sound back with a higher gain power tube, but thats in an OTL amp.  Otherwise, yeah, on its own, to me at least, its naturally  more anemic.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> LOL...running this amp with GEC's will definitely cost you a fortune....2 x 12 x GEC KT66 = 24 x $350 =



Fortunately for me they weren't $350/tube back when I bought them.    Those amps were way cool though.  The 12 tubes were grouped into 3 quads, and you could switch each quad independently on-the-fly between full class A and ultralinear. So you could run all Class A at 100 watts per amp, or all ultralinear at 200 watts per amp, or 1/3 class A, 2/3rd's ultralinear, etc.  I didn't play much with the 1/3, 2/3 thing...I ran them in full Class A all the time as 100 watts was way more than I needed for the speakers I had at the time anyway.


----------



## DenverW

Has anyone had a chance to do a comparison of the Sylvania 6sn7w metal base vs black base?  The black base are still semi available, where as the metal base are quite expensive at the moment.  Just wondering if I should bother finding a good black base or just hold out.


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> Has anyone had a chance to do a comparison of the Sylvania 6sn7w metal base vs black base?  The black base are still semi available, where as the metal base are quite expensive at the moment.  Just wondering if I should bother finding a good black base or just hold out.



I'd be interested in knowing too.  I have a pair of black bases, but have never had a metal base version.  Those are supposed to be uber tubes (with prices to match) but wondering how big the difference between them really is.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2019)




----------



## JKDJedi

I'm proud parent of new/old twins.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'm proud parent of new/old twins.


1958, very nice!


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2019)

I'm doing the ole reheating of the pins with soldering gun, will try replacement of old solder this weekend. Edit: Darkvoice amps have this unusual character trait of finding real NOS tubes, i call it the new NOS Hum Dinger Of a Thing. The one tube where I reheated the pins...crazy loud hum and the tube that I left alone has a lower audible hum. The usual remedy is to let these babys cook for 48 hours, (pull out power tube and leave preamp tube in). Usually after 24 hours the hum is gone. Life of owning a DArkvoice. Anyway, the side experiment is modded tube vs stock in the next coming week or so.


----------



## cddc

LOL....so we can name it "DV hum"


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> I'd be interested in knowing too.  I have a pair of black bases, but have never had a metal base version.  Those are supposed to be uber tubes (with prices to match) but wondering how big the difference between them really is.



I read that metal base is prone to hums...imagine someone spent $100+ and got a dud....so I never touched a metal base this far, too risky


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> LOL....so we can name it "DV hum"



That hum for me was super notorious with the new re-issue tubes.


----------



## Slade01 (Oct 24, 2019)

cddc said:


> I read that metal base is prone to hums...imagine someone spent $100+ and got a dud....so I never touched a metal base this far, too risky



Yeah, that would be unfortunate (would be pissed!).


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Yeah, that would be unfortunate (would be pissed).   Though my only experience with metal bases are with the 7N7 and 7AF7 also Sylvania made, and the hum was very minimal that goes away quickly with burn in time.  That being said, it was only a 10-20 dollar investment.




Sorry for my misrepresentation by missing out the Sylvania 6SN7W 

I think tubes with metal base in general is better than plastic base, it is sturdier and at least provides some shielding to radio interference.

It's just the famous Sylvania 6SN7W metal base that has the notorious humming issue, I read multiple times on it. On the other hand the short bottle black plastic base Slyvania 6SN7W doesn't have the issue, but @attmci seems to prefer the Sylvania 6SN7W metal base to plastic base.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-73


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> Sorry for my misrepresentation by missing out the Sylvania 6SN7W
> 
> I think tubes with metal base in general is better than plastic base, it is sturdier and at least provides some shielding to radio interference.
> 
> ...



Nope. That was my ignorance.  Lol.  I was just happy about the metal base in general.  You are right though.  I know a buddy of mine who loves the Sylvania 6SN7W (plastic base) and he's had no humming issues, so its a pretty curious thing that the metal base version has that issue (learning something new every day...).


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm doing the ole reheating of the pins with soldering gun, will try replacement of old solder this weekend. Edit: Darkvoice amps have this unusual character trait of finding real NOS tubes, i call it the new NOS Hum Dinger Of a Thing. The one tube where I reheated the pins...crazy loud hum and the tube that I left alone has a lower audible hum. The usual remedy is to let these babys cook for 48 hours, (pull out power tube and leave preamp tube in). Usually after 24 hours the hum is gone. Life of owning a DArkvoice. Anyway, the side experiment is modded tube vs stock in the next coming week or so.



While I'm certainly no expert at this to which @Paladin79 can attest, I think I see the problem: if you actually touch the pins with the soldering iron, it seems to work better.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> While I'm certainly no expert at this to which @Paladin79 can attest, I think I see the problem: if you actually touch the pins with the soldering iron, it seems to work better.


   I had a feeling....


----------



## mourip (Oct 26, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> My favorite Melz 1578 to date is the 1963, later I will look to see if they are still available. I changed the solder on ten of them so I had plenty to sample.
> 
> rz6apq@gmail.com
> 
> ...



Thanks for the referral.

The hole plate with metal base Melz 6H8C/1578 is one 6SN7 variant that I have always wanted to try.

 These "Holy Grail" tubes seem to go for about $100 each on eBay or from Brent Jesse when in stock. Searching on eBay is daunting due to the possibility of getting a bad one or not choosing the "right" one from the Russian/Ukrainian sellers.

 Is Edward a private seller or a web seller?

Thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

He will sell direct if you contact him and maybe save you some fees. I know a few people who have purchased from him and I replaced the solder in the tube pins so I know they were the real deal. I have at least two of his 1963's myself.


----------



## mourip

Paladin79 said:


> He will sell direct if you contact him and maybe save you some fees. I know a few people who have purchased from him and I replaced the solder in the tube pins so I know they were the real deal. I have at least two of his 1963's myself.



Thanks!


----------



## JKDJedi

Found an interesting article that starts out with this....

*Fact:* There is no such thing as a perfectly sealed vacuum tube. All tubes leak.

*Fact:* Over time, molecules of air pass through these "imperfect" seals, contaminating the inside of the tube.

*Fact:* A tube that sits on the shelf collects a relatively large amount of air inside over time.

*Fact:* The longer the tube sits inactive, the more air is accumulated.

*Fact:* The larger the tube, the greater the leakage.

*Fact:* The high level of vacuum, and removal of contaminant molecules is maintained by something known as the, "getter", which is usually a form of "rare earth minerals", that absorb the air, when heated by the filament in the tube.

*Fact: *Over-heating of tube seals, can compromise the seal, and cause rapid tube failure. Tube seals can also be damaged by high current start-up in-rush, which can crack seals by mechanical stress.

*Fact: *There is no such thing as, "too much cooling air flow" over the tube. Too little cooling air can be a big problem, and lead to seal over-heating.


https://web.archive.org/web/20120605105654/http://www.kk5dr.com/Tubes.html


----------



## toufeeq

First off, this thread is an encyclopedia of knowledge on the 6SN7. Thanks to all the contributors. 

Second, I'd like to experiment with an alternate tube to my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB on my Darkvoice 336SE and looking for some recommendations. I usually listen to Led Zeppelin, Tool and Bob Dylan on my Darkvoice and would like to know what other 6SN7 tube I should be experimenting with? 

Everyone seems to be raving about the Ken Rad VT-231 but not sure if this is the right tube for my music listening. I paid ~$30 for the GTB and I think my next tube would be in the $50-75 range.


----------



## Paladin79

toufeeq said:


> First off, this thread is an encyclopedia of knowledge on the 6SN7. Thanks to all the contributors.
> 
> Second, I'd like to experiment with an alternate tube to my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB on my Darkvoice 336SE and looking for some recommendations. I usually listen to Led Zeppelin, Tool and Bob Dylan on my Darkvoice and would like to know what other 6SN7 tube I should be experimenting with?
> 
> Everyone seems to be raving about the Ken Rad VT-231 but not sure if this is the right tube for my music listening. I paid ~$30 for the GTB and I think my next tube would be in the $50-75 range.



For that price I would search for RCA or Sylvania. Maybe a National Union.


----------



## toufeeq

Paladin79 said:


> For that price I would search for RCA or Sylvania. Maybe a National Union.



RCA/Sylvania/National Union VT-231s?


----------



## Paladin79

toufeeq said:


> RCA/Sylvania/National Union VT-231s?


Yes if you can get them for that price.


----------



## toufeeq

So in general are the VT-231s better than the 6SN7GTB. And by better, I mean in terms of construction and quality for a vintage tube. I know sound is subjective. Why are the 231s higher priced than a normal vintage 6SN7 from the same manufacturer?


----------



## Paladin79

toufeeq said:


> So in general are the VT-231s better than the 6SN7GTB. And by better, I mean in terms of construction and quality for a vintage tube. I know sound is subjective. Why are the 231s higher priced than a normal vintage 6SN7 from the same manufacturer?


VT-231 was the military designation, you can often catch a Sylvania bad boy for less money going with the vt-231 name on them.


----------



## cddc

toufeeq said:


> First off, this thread is an encyclopedia of knowledge on the 6SN7. Thanks to all the contributors.
> 
> Second, I'd like to experiment with an alternate tube to my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB on my Darkvoice 336SE and looking for some recommendations. I usually listen to Led Zeppelin, Tool and Bob Dylan on my Darkvoice and would like to know what other 6SN7 tube I should be experimenting with?
> 
> Everyone seems to be raving about the Ken Rad VT-231 but not sure if this is the right tube for my music listening. I paid ~$30 for the GTB and I think my next tube would be in the $50-75 range.





LOL....people are going crazy with Ken Rad VT-231

Tung-Sol GTB is actually pretty good, with good bass and definition. The differences going from Tung-Sol GTB to VT231's will be small. Diminishing return kicks in here...LOL


----------



## toufeeq

cddc said:


> LOL....people are going crazy with Ken Rad VT-231
> 
> Tung-Sol GTB is actually pretty good, with good bass and definition. The differences going from Tung-Sol GTB to VT231's will be small. Diminishing return kicks in here...LOL



Right. Definitely feels like a slippery slope where I get a bunch of old vintage tubes and I can’t really tell the difference between them. 

I guess I’m just curious at this point if there is a markedly different tube to the GTB for my kusic tastes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 4, 2019)

cddc said:


> LOL....people are going crazy with Ken Rad VT-231
> 
> Tung-Sol GTB is actually pretty good, with good bass and definition. The differences going from Tung-Sol GTB to VT231's will be small. Diminishing return kicks in here...LOL


That has not been my experience nor the listening sessions I set up but buy what you want to buy.

if you cannot tell any difference buy cheap, there are plenty of GE’s out there.


----------



## cddc (Nov 4, 2019)

I have a question - why a brand new tube with super testing results (125% / 125% Gm) has humming issues?

I'm pretty sure I have cleaned the pins multiple times and the tube sits in the socket well, but there are still intermittent hums (I have burnt it in for couple of days now). It really pissed me off.

I don't think the solder inside pins needs to be reheated, if the connection is weak there, the tube won't test so well (125% on both channels by the seller).

Any reason and possible solution? Thanks.


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> I have a question - why a brand new tube with super testing results (125% / 125% Gm) has humming issues?
> 
> I'm pretty sure I have cleaned the pins multiple times and the tube sits in the socket well, but there are still intermittent hums (I have burnt it in for couple of days now). It really pissed me off.
> 
> ...



Noise has little to do with emission, try tapping on the tube to see if the noise goes away.  Being brand new I would doubt a poor solder in the pins. I get that in 60 year old tubes.


----------



## cddc

Paladin79 said:


> Noise has little to do with emission, try tapping on the tube to see if the noise goes away.  Being brand new I would doubt a poor solder in the pins. I get that in 60 year old tubes.




Thanks a lot for the suggestion, I will try to tap it couple of times.

Yup, very weird. If it is a used tube and comes with mediocre testing results, I won't be surprised by noises. But this is a NIB NOS brown base military tube with super testing results, I was just really pissed off when hearing the noises.


----------



## Skylab

Another very nice and often overlooked tube in the price range would be the Sylvania 6SN7WGT


----------



## Paladin79

Skylab said:


> Another very nice and often overlooked tube in the price range would be the Sylvania 6SN7WGT


A very good tube.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> I have a question - why a brand new tube with super testing results (125% / 125% Gm) has humming issues?
> 
> I'm pretty sure I have cleaned the pins multiple times and the tube sits in the socket well, but there are still intermittent hums (I have burnt it in for couple of days now). It really pissed me off.
> 
> ...



Did you buy this from a vendor or someone on Ebay?  I ask only because I've bought many a tube on Ebay that the seller has stated wildly inflated test measurements or bogus measurements altogether (I have testers so I can easily check).  Also, an _intermittent_ hum in many cases can be a grounding or poor contact issue. You've cleaned the tube pins, but have you cleaned the socket contacts as well and assured they are tight and don't need re-tensioned?


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Did you buy this from a vendor or someone on Ebay?  I ask only because I've bought many a tube on Ebay that the seller has stated wildly inflated test measurements or bogus measurements altogether (I have testers so I can easily check).  Also, an _intermittent_ hum in many cases can be a grounding or poor contact issue. You've cleaned the tube pins, but have you cleaned the socket contacts as well and assured they are tight and don't need re-tensioned?




Sometimes I buy tubes from vendors like Langrex, sometimes off ebay, this particular noisy tube is coming off eBay.

I think grounding and contact is okay in my amp. Most of my tubes are nice and quiet in my amp, so I think it is more likely with the tube itself. It's just weird such a new tube can have humming issue, i think I was out of luck....


----------



## toufeeq

Skylab said:


> Another very nice and often overlooked tube in the price range would be the Sylvania 6SN7WGT


How do you know what is a fair price to pay for this tube? I see prices range from $40 to $100. What should I be looking for? I don't really know what to make of the testing results nor can I verify they are credible as I don't have a tester.


----------



## Skylab

Do you have an eBay seller you trust? That’s the best way to know, IMO


----------



## toufeeq

Skylab said:


> Do you have an eBay seller you trust? That’s the best way to know, IMO


Nope but I’m open to recommendations if you know any. Maybe DM me if you don’t feel like replying publicly?


----------



## attmci

toufeeq said:


> How do you know what is a fair price to pay for this tube? I see prices range from $40 to $100. What should I be looking for? I don't really know what to make of the testing results nor can I verify they are credible as I don't have a tester.


$100? Nope. @Skylab can sell u cheap.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> That has not been my experience nor the listening sessions I set up but buy what you want to buy.
> 
> if you cannot tell any difference buy cheap, there are plenty of GE’s out there.


Same here, each tube has it's character or sound signature to it, collect what you can when you can. Lot more fun listening with your own ears. And one tube you thought was a dud (didn't really like) will turn around and surprise you with a different power tube.


----------



## Skylab

toufeeq said:


> Nope but I’m open to recommendations if you know any. Maybe DM me if you don’t feel like replying publicly?



well I haven’t been actively buying tubes for a while so unfortunately I didn’t recognize any of the sellers I saw on eBay with that tube listed. Generally though I think $40-60 is the right price for that tube. 



attmci said:


> $100? Nope. @Skylab can sell u cheap.



Ha, thanks!! Yeah I was always pretty fair about my prices I thought - tried to be anyway. But i have pared the collection down to where I don’t want to sell anymore.


----------



## DenverW

toufeeq said:


> Right. Definitely feels like a slippery slope where I get a bunch of old vintage tubes and I can’t really tell the difference between them.
> 
> I guess I’m just curious at this point if there is a markedly different tube to the GTB for my kusic tastes.



you mentioned you wanted a different sound from the Tung sols to experiment with.  I might recommend a rca grey glass 6sn7gt/vt231.  They don’t sell for as much as the ken rads, and have a pretty distinctive  tube sound.  I’m terrible at descriptions, but I would say a less defined more liquid sound; more reverb.  It’s an enjoyable tube that I like about as much as ken rad for half the price.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 4, 2019)

toufeeq said:


> Nope but I’m open to recommendations if you know any. Maybe DM me if you don’t feel like replying publicly?


I can vouch for this seller https://www.ebay.com/usr/valvedriven?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754 Have a few good buys from him and tubes are MINT, edit.. well when he has them..not much there now..


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Same here, each tube has it's character or sound signature to it, collect what you can when you can. Lot more fun listening with your own ears. And one tube you thought was a dud (didn't really like) will turn around and surprise you with a different power tube.



I never doubt every tube has its unique characteristics and sound signature 

I just think a run off the mill Tung-Sol GTB will offer 90% of the good sound quality you can get from a NOS 6SN7 tube, the other 10% you have to pay for a premium to get it, where diminishing return has a flat curve there...LOL


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I never doubt every tube has its unique characteristics and sound signature
> 
> I just think a run off the mill Tung-Sol GTB will offer 90% of the good sound quality you can get from a NOS 6SN7 tube, the other 10% you have to pay for a premium to get it, where diminishing return has a flat curve there...LOL


If that's all your after sure, same could be said about headphones, cars, food. To each their own, if you like collecting nostalgic tubes with history, power to ya. If you just want a good sounding tube from say Walmart, good for you.


----------



## cddc

Why the extra 10% costs so much...all tube addicts are crazy people, me included...


----------



## DenverW

And also, as good as different tubes sound, I really enjoy the pursuit, collection, and experimentation.  It’s more than just listening; that’s just the happy end result.


----------



## JKDJedi

Skylab said:


> Another very nice and often overlooked tube in the price range would be the Sylvania 6SN7WGT


And there's a few out there at decent prices ... Just found a few ....so tempting!!


----------



## DenverW

I tried a Tung sol 6sn7wgt last night and it left me unimpressed.  Seemed a bit grating in the upper end; lacking smoothness.  After that glowing recommendation if anyone wants to purchase it for $20 lemme know


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> I tried a Tung sol 6sn7wgt last night and it left me unimpressed.  Seemed a bit grating in the upper end; lacking smoothness.  After that glowing recommendation if anyone wants to purchase it for $20 lemme know


   LOL .


----------



## DenverW

Just kidding!  I meant to say you could test it for me for a year.


----------



## toufeeq

DenverW said:


> I tried a Tung sol 6sn7wgt last night and it left me unimpressed.  Seemed a bit grating in the upper end; lacking smoothness.  After that glowing recommendation if anyone wants to purchase it for $20 lemme know



I have a Sylvania 6SN7WGT in the mail that I managed to get off Ebay. The seller had it listed as untested so not sure how good it is. 

I’ll update here on how it performs and if its underwhelming, might add it to the 1yr testing pile.


----------



## Slade01

toufeeq said:


> So in general are the VT-231s better than the 6SN7GTB. And by better, I mean in terms of construction and quality for a vintage tube. I know sound is subjective. Why are the 231s higher priced than a normal vintage 6SN7 from the same manufacturer?



One other reason for a labeled VT-231 is that you know for certainty the time range when they were produced.   But yeah there is no difference in construction what so ever between designated ones and consumer versions.


----------



## Slade01

@JKDJedi hey how did you make out with those Fotons btw?  Been on vacay so maybe I missed your results...


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 5, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi hey how did you make out with those Fotons btw?  Been on vacay so maybe I missed your results...


You know for $10.95 a pair, these 1958 Fotons sound really good. These do need the 100 hour burn in, one of them got sacrificed for the my first try at replacing the solder in the pins, sort felt like I wasted the tube but the thing is still working! Gonna finish that project as soon as the wire brush gets in I ordered from Amazon. The other tube I left untouched, and Its nearly Noise free! It had a loud hum initially, and I knew I just had to be patient with the burn In process, so yesterday I did a quick listen and now it's a very low hum on the left channel only! It's an impactful tube, fast like the Black Treasure, a nice grab. Wondering how the 53' I have coming in will compare to these, that one was not $10. 

The left tube here has the new solder


----------



## Paladin79

Yikes I have not seen a soldering gun like that in ages. If you can solder with that, you can solder with anything lol.

The 58's are very nice and yes the 100 hour burn in i dispelled a few months ago. A couple hours and you are golden with new solder.

I do try for a complete seal of solder over the tip of the pin but that will come in time for you. You are getting there.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Yikes I have not seen a soldering gun like that in ages. If you can solder with that, you can solder with anything lol.
> 
> The 58's are very nice and yes the 100 hour burn in i dispelled a few months ago. A couple hours and you are golden with new solder.
> 
> I do try for a complete seal of solder over the tip of the pin but that will come in time for you. You are getting there.


 Hah!  Paladin79 has been very patient with my screw ups on this project...   Thanks for your help buddy, I had a smaller gun and threw the tips away thinking I would never need them...SMH...  where's that flat head!!   So my next go at it will be with a lot thinner solder wire. And smaller gun.


----------



## DenverW

It was my understanding that the connection to the socket was more middle, not at either end?  The tip shouldn’t touch anything.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> It was my understanding that the connection to the socket was more middle, not at either end?  The tip shouldn’t touch anything.


Probably, my soldering replacement involved what was inside the pins....or is my thinking wrong about that too? There's soldering inside the pins .... right? Oh God. . .if it was just the tips .... NooooOooooOOooooOoooo


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> It was my understanding that the connection to the socket was more middle, not at either end?  The tip shouldn’t touch anything.


I am not sure I follow what you are saying.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Probably, my soldering replacement involved what was inside the pins....or is my thinking wrong about that too? There's soldering inside the pins .... right? Oh God. . .if it was just the tips .... NooooOooooOOooooOoooo



Ok I remove the old solder with a solder sucker, and replace it inside the pin, but personally I like to seal the end of the pin, the part on the very end. Just the way they look from the factory.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I remove the old solder with a solder sucker, and replace it inside the pin, but personally I like to seal the end of the pin, the part on the very end. Just the way they look from the factory.


 I thought I was doing that too ... Lol... Got the high socks look


----------



## cddc

I guess what @DenverW was trying to say is that a complete seal of solder over the tip of the pin is not necessary, since the contact is mainly made at the middle


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I thought I was doing that too ... Lol... Got the high socks look


It takes some practice, and I have maybe 12 styles of solder tips for multiple Weller and other brand soldering stations.


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> I guess what @DenverW was trying to say is that a complete seal of solder over the tip of the pin is not necessary, since the contact is mainly made at the middle



It is probably not necessary but it was not how I was taught to solder so I seal it. It is not easy to see how well you did inside the pin and if you extend the solder all the way to the bottom of the pin, you know you are good. Part of it is just matching the original for me perhaps.


----------



## DenverW

Cddc has it correct!  Thank you for saying what I was trying to say, but better


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> Cddc has it correct!  Thank you for saying what I was trying to say, but better



LOL I understand now, but having done this on many tubes, it is not easy to know how well you did in the middle of the pin, I keep the tube at a slightly downward angle so as not to get too much solder flowing through the pin, capillary action will draw it up into place. I like to be sure it is a good connection.


----------



## cddc

Paladin79 said:


> It is probably not necessary but it was not how I was taught to solder so I seal it. It is not easy to see how well you did inside the pin and if you extend the solder all the way to the bottom of the pin, you know you are good. Part of it is just matching the original for me perhaps.




I think it takes a lots of practice to make a nice seal extending all the way to bottom, like the ones coming out of factory. But for sure it will look and feel much better.


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> I think it takes a lots of practice to make a nice seal extending all the way to bottom, like the ones coming out of factory. But for sure it will look and feel much better.



Yep, I try to tell people to practice on some duds first. I do $100 tubes for folks all the time and have never damaged one, but I have worked in electronics since the seventies, had tube theory in college, and have taught electronics and soldering so I probably take some things for granted when I do them myself.


----------



## cddc

I think I'll need lots of GE tubes for practice...


----------



## DenverW

Paladin79 said:


> Yep, I try to tell people to practice on some duds first. I do $100 tubes for folks all the time and have never damaged one, but I have worked in electronics since the seventies, had tube theory in college, and have taught electronics and soldering so I probably take some things for granted when I do them myself.



you’re a guy I need to know!


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 5, 2019)




----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 5, 2019)

Sorry I am using my phone, part of the work I did for one 6sn7 equivalent tube challenge for Schiit audio


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You know for $10.95 a pair, these 1958 Fotons sound really good. These do need the 100 hour burn in, one of them got sacrificed for the my first try at replacing the solder in the pins, sort felt like I wasted the tube but the thing is still working! Gonna finish that project as soon as the wire brush gets in I ordered from Amazon. The other tube I left untouched, and Its nearly Noise free! It had a loud hum initially, and I knew I just had to be patient with the burn In process, so yesterday I did a quick listen and now it's a very low hum on the left channel only! It's an impactful tube, fast like the Black Treasure, a nice grab. Wondering how the 53' I have coming in will compare to these, that one was not $10.
> 
> The left tube here has the new solder



That makes me feel a lot better about my own pin soldering skills.

LOL...J/K.  

One thing I've seen pretty consistently is that the factory solder job on the pre-57's (rib plates) is much better visually than the '57's and later.  Doesn't speak to the solder itself degrading or being of poor quality, but the workmanship is considerably better. So that '53 you have coming has a good chance of sounding better right off the bat, and not necessarily due to the plate construction.  The '58's I've resoldered are so darn close to the earlier ribbed plates I wouldn't have confidence I could pick between them in a blind test. Could be due to the better factory workmanship alone.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yep, I try to tell people to practice on some duds first. I do $100 tubes for folks all the time and have never damaged one, but I have worked in electronics since the seventies, had tube theory in college, and have taught electronics and soldering so I probably take some things for granted when I do them myself.



Oh come on. Just admit you're an expert at doing these and the rest of us are rank amateurs.  

Did my box of 50 Fotons show up yet for you to resolder?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh come on. Just admit you're an expert at doing these and the rest of us are rank amateurs.
> 
> Did my box of 50 Fotons show up yet for you to resolder?


Well I am more familiar with your abilities but I am still trying to give others the benefit of the doubt.

Your tubes got here and I picked out my favorites and put the rest back up for sale. What did you think these guys were practicing with. If you want money for the tubes I will write you out an IOU, it is practically the same thing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well I am more familiar with your abilities but I am still trying to give others the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Your tubes got here and I picked out my favorites and put the rest back up for sale. What did you think these guys were practicing with. If you want money for the tubes I will write you out an IOU, it is practically the same thing.



I figured as much, so no way I'm sending you the 50 I have left.  Guess I'll have to do those myself , but don't be expecting pictures....self-inflicted embarrassment is not my style.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


>



By strange coincidence, I had spaghetti for dinner last night.


----------



## ggillies (Nov 6, 2019)

toufeeq said:


> First off, this thread is an encyclopedia of knowledge on the 6SN7. Thanks to all the contributors.
> 
> Second, I'd like to experiment with an alternate tube to my Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB on my Darkvoice 336SE and looking for some recommendations. I usually listen to Led Zeppelin, Tool and Bob Dylan on my Darkvoice and would like to know what other 6SN7 tube I should be experimenting with?
> 
> Everyone seems to be raving about the Ken Rad VT-231 but not sure if this is the right tube for my music listening. I paid ~$30 for the GTB and I think my next tube would be in the $50-75 range.



I know this is a bit off the beaten path, but after EXTENSIVE listening with various tubes, including Ken-Rad VT-231 and many others, I have found for my personal tastes for Rock music and EDM tracks that I really like the Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA.  It has lots of good, tight, deep bass and beautiful midrange and highs.... And it's affordable!  These are the exact ones I have (I stocked up and bought 4).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Philips-JA...889607?hash=item3d9355f707:g:TFYAAOSwMOtb~0uE

That Philips, combined with the Tung-Sol 7238 as a 6AS7 replacement is perfect for my listening tastes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> By strange coincidence, I had spaghetti for dinner last night.



keep it up and I will stop letting you gift me tubes!!!


----------



## bcowen (Nov 6, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> keep it up and I will stop letting you gift me tubes!!!



Man, that's harsh.  But I know when I'm beaten, so I'll quit.  But only after you translate into English what this means:  “Oh it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. The trombones crunched redgold under my bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise silverflamed, and there by the door the timps rolling through my guts and out again crunched like candy thunder. Anthony Burgess".      I've never done LSD...is that required to "get it"?


----------



## toufeeq

ggillies said:


> I know this is a bit off the beaten path, but after EXTENSIVE listening with various tubes, including Ken-Rad VT-231 and many others, I have found for my personal tastes for Rock music and EDM tracks that I really like the Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA.  It has lots of good, tight, deep bass and beautiful midrange and highs.... And it's affordable!  These are the exact ones I have (I stocked up and bought 4).
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Philips-JA...889607?hash=item3d9355f707:g:TFYAAOSwMOtb~0uE
> 
> That Philips, combined with the Tung-Sol 7238 as a 6AS7 replacement is perfect for my listening tastes.



Is the 6SL7WGT just the European version of the 6SN7?


----------



## bcowen

ggillies said:


> I know this is a bit off the beaten path, but after EXTENSIVE listening with various tubes, including Ken-Rad VT-231 and many others, I have found for my personal tastes for Rock music and EDM tracks that I really like the Philips JAN 6SN7WGTA.  It has lots of good, tight, deep bass and beautiful midrange and highs.... And it's affordable!  These are the exact ones I have (I stocked up and bought 4).
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Philips-JA...889607?hash=item3d9355f707:g:TFYAAOSwMOtb~0uE
> 
> That Philips, combined with the Tung-Sol 7238 as a 6AS7 replacement is perfect for my listening tastes.



OK, I'm confused.  You like the 6SN7WGTA, but linked a 6SL7WGT.  Not that either of them float my boat, but that just goes to show we all have different tastes and preferences and there is no such thing as a *universally* best tube.


----------



## bcowen

toufeeq said:


> Is the 6SL7WGT just the European version of the 6SN7?



No, the 6SL7 has 3x the gain of a 6SN7.  Pinouts are the same and other than the gain and the 2x heater current draw of the 6SN7 over the 6SL7, the other operating characteristics are very similar.


----------



## ggillies

bcowen said:


> Man, that's harsh.  But I know when I'm beaten, so I'll quit.  But only after you translate into English what this means:  “Oh it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. The trombones crunched redgold under my bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise silverflamed, and there by the door the timps rolling through my guts and out again crunched like candy thunder. Anthony Burgess"    I've never done LSD...is that required to "get it"?


Dude!!!!  That's pure GOLD right there; it's like you translated "The Jabberwocky" into Tube-ese...


----------



## bcowen

ggillies said:


> Dude!!!!  That's pure GOLD right there; it's like you translated "The Jabberwocky" into Tube-ese...



  That's in @Paladin79 's signature line.  I take no credit for it...and don't even understand it.  LOL!


----------



## ggillies (Nov 6, 2019)

bcowen said:


> OK, I'm confused.  You like the 6SN7WGTA, but linked a 6SL7WGT.  Not that either of them float my boat, but that just goes to show we all have different tastes and preferences and there is no such thing as a *universally* best tube.


Ah, crap.. I sent the wrong link....  What I meant to send was this: You can find them MUCH cheaper than this seller is charging.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...306241?hash=item593603c5c1:g:WJ4AAOSwpdddgNw0


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Man, that's harsh.  But I know when I'm beaten, so I'll quit.  But only after you translate into English what this means:  “Oh it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. The trombones crunched redgold under my bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise silverflamed, and there by the door the timps rolling through my guts and out again crunched like candy thunder. Anthony Burgess".      I've never done LSD...is that required to "get it"?



Put your comic books down and read a Clockwork Orange, or at least watch the movie lol. And Burgess created some of his own language for the novel, called Nadsat I want to say but it has been a couple years since I read it, Russian based. 

Which reminds me I am speaking to a Russian right now about some tubes. I have some on the way but they do not apply to this thread, they are more for a Mjolnir. Something about a silver shield, 1975, I forget the rest, but they may be ok.

And I just had spaghetti for lunch so thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Put your comic books down and read a Clockwork Orange, or at least watch the movie lol.



I don't know how to read, but I *did* watch the movie.  Made my life seem almost normal comparatively.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I don't know how to read, but I *did* watch the movie.  Made my life seem almost normal comparatively.


----------



## Velozity

ggillies said:


> Ah, crap.. I sent the wrong link....  What I meant to send was this: You can find them MUCH cheaper than this seller is charging.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That Philips ECG tube looks to have identical construction to my Sylvania 6SN7GTB.  Maybe the Philips is a rebrand?


----------



## ggillies (Nov 6, 2019)

You're right, it looks EXTREMELY similar.  Maybe it is a rebrand?  Not sure if Philips was a manufacturer of tubes, or just OEM of another manufacturer.

Maybe someone on this Forum is familiar with the Philips/Sylvania tie-in?

I just happened on the Philips as part of my buying spree of all the 6SN7 tubes I wanted to try; I bought around 30+ tubes and wanted to try them all to see which ones I liked the best.  The Philips was the one that I liked best of all the tubes I tried.  I did NOT, however try that particular Sylvania that you showed.


----------



## cddc

Velozity said:


> That Philips ECG tube looks to have identical construction to my Sylvania 6SN7GTB.  Maybe the Philips is a rebrand?




They do look very similar, not sure if they're the same, if same then you can buy GTB's at a much lower price. Lots of military versions are the same as consumer versions, like the Sylvania Gold Brand.

BTW, is the board you made to store tubes? It's a great idea. The pins will be sitting there dust-free.


----------



## Velozity

cddc said:


> They do look very similar, not sure if they're the same, if same then you can buy GTB's at a much lower price. Lots of military versions are the same as consumer versions, like the Sylvania Gold Brand.
> 
> BTW, is the board you made to store tubes? It's a great idea. The pins will be sitting there dust-free.




Thanks!  Yes it's just pieces of 3/4" MDF that I drilled 7/8" holes into with a Forstner bit (you can drill to a certain depth without going all the way through) and spray painted brown.  Just a neat way of re-purposing some leftover wood from building speaker boxes .  This makes it easier to store on a shelf and grab the one I want quickly without going through boxes.


----------



## whirlwind

Velozity said:


> Thanks!  Yes it's just pieces of 3/4" MDF that I drilled 7/8" holes into with a Forstner bit (you can drill to a certain depth without going all the way through) and spray painted brown.  Just a neat way of re-purposing some leftover wood from building speaker boxes .  This makes it easier to store on a shelf and grab the one I want quickly without going through boxes.




Some nice tubes there.


----------



## cddc

Velozity said:


> Thanks!  Yes it's just pieces of 3/4" MDF that I drilled 7/8" holes into with a Forstner bit (you can drill to a certain depth without going all the way through) and spray painted brown.  Just a neat way of re-purposing some leftover wood from building speaker boxes .  This makes it easier to store on a shelf and grab the one I want quickly without going through boxes.




Yup, a super neat idea - makes tube rolling much easier while keeping tubes clean


----------



## DenverW

Speaking of rebrand, I just figured out by comparing that the Westinghouse 6sn7wgta that I was speaking highly of is actually a rebranded top getter Sylvania gt.  Tubes are funny things.


----------



## toufeeq

Velozity said:


> Thanks!  Yes it's just pieces of 3/4" MDF that I drilled 7/8" holes into with a Forstner bit (you can drill to a certain depth without going all the way through) and spray painted brown.  Just a neat way of re-purposing some leftover wood from building speaker boxes .  This makes it easier to store on a shelf and grab the one I want quickly without going through boxes.


That is a very unique solution to tube storage.

Does anyone have a recommended way to store tubes? I was looking at some Amazon Basics hard cases vs. just throwing them into a drawer. Any recommendations?


----------



## LoryWiv

toufeeq said:


> That is a very unique solution to tube storage.
> 
> Does anyone have a recommended way to store tubes? I was looking at some Amazon Basics hard cases vs. just throwing them into a drawer. Any recommendations?


I am using pelican style hard cases and happy with that solution.


----------



## bcowen

toufeeq said:


> That is a very unique solution to tube storage.
> 
> Does anyone have a recommended way to store tubes? I was looking at some Amazon Basics hard cases vs. just throwing them into a drawer. Any recommendations?



I keep the small tubes (9 pinners, octals, etc) in plastic bins with a snap-on cover that slide up under the bed.  Bigger tubes like octal power tubes, 300B's, 211's, etc I have in file boxes in the closet.  Bit more of a pain to get to, but not like I'm rolling them a lot anyway.



 

Back in the olden days I had my own audio room with a nice closet, but then kid happened and I wasn't allowed to have my own stuff or space anymore.


----------



## DenverW

That’s a lot of tubes!


----------



## ggillies

bcowen said:


> I keep the small tubes (9 pinners, octals, etc) in plastic bins with a snap-on cover that slide up under the bed.  Bigger tubes like octal power tubes, 300B's, 211's, etc I have in file boxes in the closet.  Bit more of a pain to get to, but not like I'm rolling them a lot anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Back in the olden days I had my own audio room with a nice closet, but then kid happened and I wasn't allowed to have my own stuff or space anymore.


Jeez!!!  You could sell all those tubes and buy a vacation home in Hawaii..!!


----------



## bcowen

ggillies said:


> Jeez!!!  You could sell all those tubes and buy a vacation home in Hawaii..!!



Yeah, but then I wouldn't have any tubes.  Difficult....so difficult.


----------



## G0rt




----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


>


----------



## Oskari

Velozity said:


> That Philips ECG tube looks to have identical construction to my Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Maybe the Philips is a rebrand?





ggillies said:


> You're right, it looks EXTREMELY similar. Maybe it is a rebrand? Not sure if Philips was a manufacturer of tubes, or just OEM of another manufacturer.
> 
> Maybe someone on this Forum is familiar with the Philips/Sylvania tie-in?



Philips was a major tube maker but Philips also bought (the relevant part of) Sylvania and called it Philips ECG.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 8, 2019)

bcowen said:


>



Dont you who mean 'He who dies after having fondled the most tubes wins'?  

And don't think that it escaped me that you keep your most fondled tubes under your bed.   Ewwww.


----------



## cddc

Need help from gurus here:

Just found a tube with abso-fu*king-lutely no info on glass or base, no etched code on top or side of glass, no print or whatever...

Now how do I know if it is a 6SN7 or 12SN7 or 25SN7? If it is a 25SN7 and I plug it into my 6SN7 socket, are the filaments going to burn out?

I am thinking of measuring the filament resistance between pin 7 and pin 8, not sure if there is a significant difference to identify them?


----------



## DenverW

If it’s a 6sn7 we could probably identify it with a picture. We could try!


----------



## cddc (Nov 8, 2019)

DenverW said:


> If it’s a 6sn7 we could probably identify it with a picture. We could try!




No, I doubt it. I don't think we can't tell the difference between 6SN7 and 12/25SN7 by appearance, they look exactly the same, same external and same internal.


----------



## DenverW

Not with that attitude!

But in all seriousness, cddc is more experienced than I, so my ideas out.


----------



## cddc

Really sorry man, my bad. I think I was just too lazy to shoot some pics. But trust me I really can't tell any difference between 6SN7 and 12/25SN7 by just appearance.


Here is a picture showing three 12SN7 tubes, I don't think I can tell they are three 12SN7 tubes if the seller doesn't specify 12SN7 in the title. By appearance I would guess the left two are just run off the mill Sylvania 6SN7 GTA or GTB tubes.


----------



## DenverW

I'm really disappointed in everyone!  I assumed ya'll could tell the wiring on these sockets on sight!


----------



## toufeeq

I'm looking for a cheaper alternate to the Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W. 
I currently have a  Sylvania 6SN7WGT and a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB. I feel the Syl 6SN7W would be a good upgrade but is beyond my budget and looks like this tube had reliability problems(esp. the metal base ones). Is there anything that has a similar sound signature but at lower cost?


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> If it’s a 6sn7 we could probably identify it with a picture. We could try!




So here comes the subject in question - only RCA brand is visible from the base, but I couldn't find any 6SN7 or 12/25SN7 from the tube, it's completely wiped out....and I am confused why people call it etched code, if it's etched into glass, it won't disappear...LOL


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Dont you who mean 'He who dies after having fondled the most tubes wins'?



No, that would mean *you* win.  Can't have that, obviously.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 9, 2019)

cddc said:


> Need help from gurus here:
> 
> Just found a tube with abso-fu*king-lutely no info on glass or base, no etched code on top or side of glass, no print or whatever...
> 
> ...



I doubt you'd burn up or even damage the filaments in the tube if it's a 12 or 25SN7.  You could experience cathode stripping though where voltage is being applied to the plates without the filament(s) at proper temperature (and this is assuming the filament would NOT get to proper temperature in a 12 or 25 volt tube if only fed with 6 volts).  Honestly, I've only read about this particular phenomenon and have never experienced it, but it seems it would just cause the tube to wear out much more quickly and not be an "instant death" type problem. 

Not really sure how to determine what the tube is, sorry to say. Possible that you could tell in a tube tester, although that's iffy as well.  If it's a new or fairly new 12SN7 you may just get a low reading if tested at 6.3 volts -- but you could also get the same reading if it's a 6SN7 that has a lot of usage.  A tester probably would screen out a 25 volt tube though, as at 6.3v it would probably not register any reading at all. If you didn't pay a lot for the tube, I'd give it a try. Other than the filament voltage differences, the 12SN7 only draws half the heater current of the 6SN7 and the 25SN7 1/4 of the current, so damage to your amp is highly unlikely.  Worst case is that it's actually a 12SN7 and just wears out faster, or if a 25SN7 may not operate at all...or wear out even faster.  And too, you may stick it in there, find that it sounds like dogvomit (eg: GE), and have no desire to mess with it further.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> I doubt you'd burn up or even damage the filaments in the tube if it's a 12 or 25SN7.  You could experience cathode stripping though where voltage is being applied to the plates without the filament(s) at proper temperature (and this is assuming the filament would NOT get to proper temperature in a 12 or 25 volt tube if only fed with 6 volts).  Honestly, I've only read about this particular phenomenon and have never experienced it, but it seems it would just cause the tube to wear out much more quickly and not be an "instant death" type problem.
> 
> Not really sure how to determine what the tube is, sorry to say. Possible that you could tell in a tube tester, although that's iffy as well.  If it's a new or fairly new 12SN7 you may just get a low reading if tested at 6.3 volts -- but you could also get the same reading if it's a 6SN7 that has a lot of usage.  A tester probably would screen out a 25 volt tube though, as at 6.3v it would probably not register any reading at all. If you didn't pay a lot for the tube, I'd give it a try. Other than the filament voltage differences, the 12SN7 only draws half the heater current of the 6SN7 and the 25SN7 1/4 of the current, so damage to your amp is highly unlikely.  Worst case is that it's actually a 12SN7 and just wears out faster, or if a 25SN7 may not operate at all...or wear out even faster.  And too, you may stick it in there, find that is sounds like dogvomit (eg: GE), and have no desire to mess with it further.




Great thoughts, much appreciate it!...indeed I haven't seen the problem discussed here on head-fi before, possibly because 12SN7 and 25SN7 are very unpopular and the "etched code" in most cases is visible.

Using tester to differentiate them is a innovative idea, I did some research last night and found the following possible solutions:
1. measure filament resisitance
2. the glow of a 12SN7 or 25SN7 in a 6SN7 socket might be dim so that you can tell it is not a 6SN7
3. you can measure the current draw of the heater, as 12SN7 only draws half and 25SN7 a quarter

I will try to measure the filament resistance first after getting a battery for my multimeter today or tomorrow.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Great thoughts, much appreciate it!...indeed I haven't seen the problem discussed here on head-fi before, possibly because 12SN7 and 25SN7 are very unpopular and the "etched code" in most cases is visible.
> 
> Using tester to differentiate them is a innovative idea, I did some research last night and found the following possible solutions:
> 1. measure filament resisitance
> ...



Be very interested in what you find with the filament resistance. Logically thinking, the wire diameter would be a bit larger in the 12SN7 and even a bit larger than that in the 25SN7, so both should indicate less resistance than a 6SN7. But I'm just guessing here and have no factual information to base that on.

Do you have a test socket with taps to measure the current draw?  Just wondering how you were thinking of measuring that. Hadn't even thought of testing the tube in that manner, but great idea!!


----------



## cddc (Nov 10, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Be very interested in what you find with the filament resistance.
> 
> Do you have a test socket with taps to measure the current draw?  Just wondering how you were thinking of measuring that. Hadn't even thought of testing the tube in that manner, but great idea!!



Wow...test socket...first time saw and heard of it! It's a great idea. Lots of things learned from tube veterans here.  I wish I had that test socket when I was building my Crack.

The first thing came to my mind when I was trying to figure out how to differentiate 6/12/25SN7 tubes is to measure the filament resistance, which is related to the physical difference in building materials, but I was not too sure if it would work (coz the difference might be too small to tell). So when you brought forward the idea of using tube tester to differentiate them, you were already thinking way ahead of me, LOL, a very innovative idea!

The idea of measuring heater current draw was actually not coming from me, I found it last night from some forum by googling. Though it could be the most accurate way to differentiate 6/12/25SN7 tubes theoretically, I think it would be difficult to implement without a test socket. Even with a test socket I am still not too sure if it will work. I saw a YouTube clip showing you how tubes work, where a guy measures the current by plug the multimeter into his circuit (in series). But if we use a test socket, the multimeter will run in parallel with the circuit (instead of in series), so will it still be able to measure the heater current? My limited high school level of knowledge on electronics is impotent to answer the question...LOL Have you tried to measure the heater current draw with the test socket? I'd be very interested to know.

So grabbed a new battery for my multimeter this afternoon, and here come the filament resistance measurements: I only have one 12SN7 (was sent to me by mistake ), and its filament resistance between pin 7 and pin 8 measured at 8.2 ohm. I measured couple of my 6SN7 tubes, and they all measured around 1.5 ohm (including the tube in question). So I would conclude that measuring filament resistance should work (thou only one sample of 12SN7 makes the conclusion a little bit shaky )

To sum up, we have the following ways to tell a 6SN7 tube from 12/25SN7 tubes:

1. Measure the filament resistance between pin 7 and pin 8 - the easiest way. Filament resistance for 6SN7 is around 1.5 ohm, and filament resistance for 12SN7 is around 8.2 ohm. I would guess filament resistance for 25SN7 should be even higher.

2. Measure the heater current draw - I think it is the most accurate way theoretically, as we all know 6SN7 draws 0.6A, 12SN7 0.3A, and 25SN7 0.15A. But it is more difficult/dangerous to implement, you'd better have a test socket.

3. Measure the emission/Gm with a tube tester (an innovative idea from @bcowen ) - a 12 or 25SN7 under 6.3V heater current will have a lower emission/Gm value than 6SN7 does.

4. Check the tube glow - the glow of a 12SN7 or 25SN7 in a 6SN7 circuit will be dim. I personally think it is hard to judge, coz sometimes I cannot see the glow of 6SN7 in a 6SN7 circuit unless I turn off the light.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Wow...test socket...first time saw and heard of it! It's a great idea. Lots of things learned from tube veterans here.  I wish I had that test socket when I was building my Crack.
> 
> The first thing came to my mind when I was trying to figure out how to differentiate 6/12/25SN7 tubes is to measure the filament resistance, which is related to the physical difference in building materials, but I was not too sure if it would work (coz the difference might be too small to tell). So when you brought forward the idea of using tube tester to differentiate them, you were already thinking way ahead of me, LOL, a very innovative idea!
> 
> ...



OK, scratch the test socket idea.  I've used the test socket to measure plate current on my tester with no problems (the 752A doesn't have jacks to measure plate current like the 539 series testers).  But as soon as I touch my meter probes to the test socket across the heater pins, the fuse bulb lights up like a Christmas tree.  Now this may just be the tester saying "I don't like this" and the test socket would work and give a good reading in the Lyr (or whatever) amp. But I'm too chicken to try it.    Perhaps the resistance added by the meter itself in parallel is not a good thing to do.  Testing the tube in a tester via the normal procedure would probably be the most reliable indicator, but without a tester the resistance neasurement at least gives a good clue.


----------



## toufeeq

I’m curious to know if this is a good tube to purchase. Can’t tell what is wrong with it from the photo so thought I’d share: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/163939597942


----------



## DenverW

toufeeq said:


> I’m curious to know if this is a good tube to purchase. Can’t tell what is wrong with it from the photo so thought I’d share: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/163939597942




For the price its fine.  Just keep in mind its not especially balanced, and not NOS, but not horrific.  You also don't know the seller or if you can trust his measurements and he has only the single photo.  It does look like a Sylvania vt 231.  If you're looking for an inexpensive tube that would be different from the ken rad vt231 you picked up this fits the bill.  The guy has decent feedback, so he'd probably protect that to make sure you're happy.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> You know for $10.95 a pair, these 1958 Fotons sound really good.....It's an impactful tube, fast like the Black Treasure, a nice grab. Wondering how the 53' I have coming in will compare to these, that one was not $10.



That is really good.  Yeah, 11 bucks for a pair for something that is similar to the black treasure is definitely a good deal.  Definitely looking forward to hearing how your 53's will compare with the 58's, if its a sizable difference or just really diminishing returns.  For some reason, for those who do like the russian tubes - I often hear them described as fast, maybe crisp.  I only have the russian power tubes but they lend to that "fast-ness" as well.


----------



## JKDJedi

toufeeq said:


> I’m curious to know if this is a good tube to purchase. Can’t tell what is wrong with it from the photo so thought I’d share: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/163939597942


Price is right


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Price is right


Yeah but what's up with the (not chrome) coating on the glass? I've never seen that before.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Yeah but what's up with the (not chrome) coating on the glass? I've never seen that before.



Some Syl tubes have bottom getter instead of top getter (chrome top), the tube is one of them. It has chrome getter flash on the glass right above the base.


----------



## Slade01 (Nov 13, 2019)

cddc said:


> Some Syl tubes have bottom getter instead of top getter (chrome top), the tube is one of them. It has chrome getter flash on the glass right above the base.



I get that.  I have tubes with bottom flashing.  But unless my eyes are super bad, the flash around the glass doesnt look chrome at all but brownish/burnt looking?  Or maybe it's a bad photo/angle.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 13, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> I get that.  I have tubes with bottom getters.  But unless my eyes are super bad, the flash around the glass doesnt look chrome at all but brownish/burnt looking?  Or maybe it's a bad photo/angle.


Probably angle and flash, that seems to be the look


Slade01 said:


> I get that.  I have tubes with bottom getters.  But unless my eyes are super bad, the flash around the glass doesnt look chrome at all but brownish/burnt looking?  Or maybe it's a bad photo/angle.


Might be the age or use of the tube..but check these out... really nice and tempting https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania...226270?hash=item3fd0ee6dde:g:PFkAAOSw5B9dxdxt  if the price stays low like that....cha ching


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> I get that.  I have tubes with bottom getters.  But unless my eyes are super bad, the flash around the glass doesnt look chrome at all but brownish/burnt looking?  Or maybe it's a bad photo/angle.



LOL...I'm pretty sure it is a very bad photo...shot at night using flash and with wrong angle and with lots of dust. 

The seller is definitely a very bad photographer. I guess @JKDJedi will do way better than the seller in photography....

But the chrome bottom getter seems normal to me.


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> LOL...I'm pretty sure it is a very bad photo...shot at night using flash and with wrong angle and with lots of dust.
> 
> The seller is definitely a very bad photographer. I guess @JKDJedi will do way better than the seller in photography....
> 
> But the chrome bottom getter seems normal to me.



In that case @toufeeq should jump on that. It is a good price...


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> In that case @toufeeq should jump on that. It is a good price...



The price is about right, I think, coz its Gm's are mediocre.

Here is a pair with excellent Gm's, but I doubt the price will stay there...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania...541671?hash=item5b641b6827:g:vygAAOSwoPJdwxDu


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> The price is about right, I think, coz its Gm's are mediocre.
> 
> Here is a pair with excellent Gm's, but I doubt the price will stay there...
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania...541671?hash=item5b641b6827:g:vygAAOSwoPJdwxDu



Lol. It helps to actually read through the descriptions.  Yeah Gm measurements explain the pricing.  Well, at least the seller seems fair about it for sure.


----------



## DenverW

It was my understanding that a getter doesn’t need to be chrome in image to still be good, that measurements are the only thing to be trusted.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 13, 2019)

Getter flashing info...

https://tubesound.com/brown-or-black-getter-flashing-does-not-mean-used/

Seems that the only true No-Go is WHITE flashing.


BTW -- the wire halo, D or box in the tube is the GETTER HOLDER and the chrome part is the GETTER FLASHING.  The holder wire holds the getter flashing material before it is flashed onto the inner part of the glass tube resulting in the shiny chrome-like flashing.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> The price is about right, I think, coz its Gm's are mediocre.
> 
> Here is a pair with excellent Gm's, but I doubt the price will stay there...
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania...541671?hash=item5b641b6827:g:vygAAOSwoPJdwxDu


I could've swore I posted a link to a nice pair here somewhere... Did I post it in the wrong thread?


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I could've swore I posted a link to a nice pair here somewhere... Did I post it in the wrong thread?




LOL...that pair is also very nice 

Lots of Sylvania VT-231's coming out of the caves recently...


----------



## toufeeq

Thanks all. I was definitely on the fence due to the getter as it was looking weird to me. The flash explains it. Pulled the trigger! 

On a separate note, is the measurement supposed to denote the "life" of the tube or the sound properties of the tube?


----------



## DenverW

It helps...and it doesn’t.  You can use the measurements to determine the life of the tube, but some tubes with mediocre measurements will still have hundreds if not thousands of hours left before they fail.  Also, for sound quality, a tube with very different measurements will not have good balance.  Will it be enough to have an audible difference?  That’s harder to determine.  Also, you’re trusting the sellers measurements which may not always be accurate.  Other things that can cause problems with a tube, like the hum, microphonics, how it works with the amp or power tube, won’t show up in gm measurements.

You’ll get an idea over time how to treat the data.


----------



## JKDJedi

The Foton just got in! And as usual, if you know me, my luck is perfect when it comes to vendors..... not.  First the good, this thing sounds better than I anticipated, I'm gonna have fun comparing it to the 58'. Thinking this tube best with live music right now, And the bad....well, it's not a 53'  it's a 56' ... Oh well, still has the ribbed plates, so not too bummed, and the description reads 51' or 56" would be shipped, 51' would've been dope though. I don't know why I thought 53' I'm getting to old for this stuff . ..


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> The Foton just got in! And as usual, if you know me, my luck is perfect when it comes to vendors..... not.  First the good, this thing sounds better than I anticipated, I'm gonna have fun comparing it to the 58'. Thinking this tube best with live music right now, And the bad....well, it's not a 53'  it's a 56' ... Oh well, still has the ribbed plates, so not too bummed, and the description reads 51' or 56" would be shipped, 51' would've been dope though. I don't know why I thought 53' I'm getting to old for this stuff . ..


Replace the solder in the pins on all 50’s Fotons and you will do yourself a big favor.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The Foton just got in! And as usual, if you know me, my luck is perfect when it comes to vendors..... not.  First the good, this thing sounds better than I anticipated, I'm gonna have fun comparing it to the 58'. Thinking this tube best with live music right now, And the bad....well, it's not a 53'  it's a 56' ... Oh well, still has the ribbed plates, so not too bummed, and the description reads 51' or 56" would be shipped, 51' would've been dope though. I don't know why I thought 53' I'm getting to old for this stuff . ..



As @Paladin79 noted, the pin soldering on any of the '50's Fotons is more important than the year, at least in my experience. I honestly think a big part of the difference in sound between the ribbed plates and non-ribbed plates (again, staying within 1950's manufacturing years) is the pin soldering. Visually at least, the solder job on the ribbed plates is way better than the non-ribbed plates. I would bet (but this is just a guess on my part) that when the plate structure changed, there were other changes in manufacturing as well and the pin soldering process took a giant step backwards with the later smooth plate versions.


----------



## jambaj0e (Feb 12, 2020)

So I ended up buying this matched pair of Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate for $450. Wow, most I've paid for 6SN7 tubes so far, hope I didn't overpaid for it. My only concern is that it's a TungSol branded as General Electric. Is that common or did I mistake in buying these and should cancel before they ship it out?

"
​
This auction is for one strong old stock matched pair of TungSol round plate 6SN7GT twin triode vacuum tubes branded for General Electric as shown. These both have the same 1946 date (617). Both have clear tops with no cathode marks. These were tested on our Hickok 539C tester, with results of 3000 for all four triode sections, which calculates to 115% of the expected new value.

"

Strong Matched Pair TungSol 6SN7GT Round Plate Vacuum Tubes Same 1946 Date


----------



## JKDJedi

jambaj0e said:


> So I ended up buying this matched pair of Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate for $450. Wow, most I've paid for 6SN7 tubes so far, hope I didn't overpaid for it. My only concern is that it's a TungSol branded as General Electric. Is that common?
> 
> "
> ​
> ...


I'm sure these will sound phenomenal. Me personally if I'm paying that much, for a Tung Sol tube.   It better have Tung Sol printed on the tube. These look like the real thing so take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> So I ended up buying this matched pair of Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate for $450. Wow, most I've paid for 6SN7 tubes so far, hope I didn't overpaid for it. My only concern is that it's a TungSol branded as General Electric. Is that common or did I mistake in buying these and should cancel before they ship it out?
> 
> "
> ​
> ...


Friends and I have some of those in a 6sn7 equivalent blind test we will be doing in the near future, it will be interesting to see how they come out compared to most any other type made.


----------



## jambaj0e

JKDJedi said:


> I'm sure these will sound phenomenal. Me personally if I'm paying that much, for a Tung Sol tube.   It better have Tung Sol printed on the tube. These look like the real thing so take that with a grain of salt.



Yea, I wonder if I should cancel it. On the other hand, all the ones that say Tung Sol for the Round Plates are going for over $600!


----------



## JKDJedi

jambaj0e said:


> Yea, I wonder if I should cancel it. On the other hand, all the ones that say Tung Sol for the Round Plates are going for over $600!


Lol... I was gonna say! I did a quick look right now, holy cow! These are in high demand . I was gonna link a store here but they are SOLD OUT. Wow, crazy...


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 12, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> Yea, I wonder if I should cancel it. On the other hand, all the ones that say Tung Sol for the Round Plates are going for over $600!


If they are for your own use and enjoyment I would not be too concerned. They are not the easiest tubes to find lol.


----------



## jambaj0e

Paladin79 said:


> If they are for your own use and enjoyment I would not be too concerned. They are not the easiest tubes to find lol.



Sigh, I just request to cancel it. As much as I'm sure the seller, who is a commercial dealer in tubes, is not going to pull my leg and sell me a fake one, I know that if and when I sell them, I won't be able to get as much money because they're rebranded.


----------



## JKDJedi

jambaj0e said:


> Sigh, I just request to cancel it. As much as I'm sure the seller, who is a commercial dealer in tubes, is not going to pull my leg and sell me a fake one, I know that if and when I sell them, I won't be able to get as much money because they're rebranded.


They're some Tung Sol pairs out there near that price range. $498 I saw just now on eBay. I know the feeling, been there done that. Sleep is more important than anything!


----------



## Paladin79

A current favorite of mine is the 1963 Melz on the left, some call them the 1578 but these rarely have those numbers on them. It has all the right attributes so I consider it the same tube. It is not as mids-forward as some of the other Melz I own, and like many of these Russian tubes, it is a good idea to replace the solder inside the pins Fotons are in the same club. I designed this amp to be fairly revealing of tube sound, and thus far those who have heard it seem to agree.


----------



## jambaj0e

Yeah, I may get those Tung Sols instead.

What do you guys think about getting the 6F8G + adapter variants of either the Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate or the Sylvania Bad Boys?


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 12, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> Yeah, I may get those Tung Sols instead.
> 
> What do you guys think about getting the 6F8G + adapter variants of either the Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate or the Sylvania Bad Boys?


6f8g are really nice and a very good conversation piece.. go for it. They sound very nice, you hear the difference immediately.
Slyvania pictured.


----------



## jambaj0e

I'll look into those 6F8G tubes.

In the meantime, does this seem like a good deal? I mean, he said they're matched Sylvania 3-hole bad boys, but one of the tubes is a Philco. Have you heard of Bad Boys rebranded as Philco? And how does their test look?

Matched Sylvania Bad Boys (Philco rebranded)

"Tubes: Two (2) 6SN7GT Sylvania and Philco by Sylvania BAD BOYS vintage vacuum tubes,

black ribbed 3 hole plates, bottom foil getters,
tubes test:

*84, 88 %
82, 84 %*

Tubes did not have original boxes, I assume them as used.
Price is for all tubes pictured. "


----------



## Paladin79

There are often codes that tell you who really built the tubes. Sylvania built for lots of folks


----------



## JKDJedi

jambaj0e said:


> I'll look into those 6F8G tubes.
> 
> In the meantime, does this seem like a good deal? I mean, he said they're matched Sylvania 3-hole bad boys, but one of the tubes is a Philco. Have you heard of Bad Boys rebranded as Philco? And how does their test look?
> 
> ...


Wrong....no such thing as a philco Bad Boy, there is a bunch of Sylvanias out there that "might" share the Bad Boy sound but there is Only one "Bad Boy" tube out there. I've done my research for a few years before grabbing a pair myself. The Bad Boys are little taller too. 1952 is the year you want, and the top Mica has to have the 3 spikes on each end. Preferably the JAN-CHS version. Those are the real deal Holyfield Bad Boys.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Friends and I have some of those in a 6sn7 equivalent blind test we will be doing in the near future, it will be interesting to see how they come out compared to most any other type made.



I'm sure everyone here would look forward to those results!


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I'm sure everyone here would look forward to those results!


They will happen one day, and we are using most known variables. Single triode tubes in oairs, loktals, etc


----------



## attmci

jambaj0e said:


> I'll look into those 6F8G tubes.
> 
> In the meantime, does this seem like a good deal? I mean, he said they're matched Sylvania 3-hole bad boys, but one of the tubes is a Philco. Have you heard of Bad Boys rebranded as Philco? And how does their test look?
> 
> ...


Hard to identify these tubes due to the poor pictures. Can you see three holes on both sides? Brand is not important.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Hard to identify these tubes due to the poor pictures. Can you see three holes on both sides? Brand is not important.


Brand is not important!? O.O I beg to differ. Maybe not in sound. But in Identity, there is only one Bad Boy. If your looking for the Sylvania 6SN7GT sound that's one thing, but don't call it a Bad Boy if it's not The Bad Boy.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Brand is not important!? O.O I beg to differ. Maybe not in sound. But in Identity, there is only one Bad Boy. If your looking for the Sylvania 6SN7GT sound that's one thing, but don't call it a Bad Boy if it's not The Bad Boy.


I have some single triode Sylvania's I termed the Naughty Girls, black plate, three hole, 6J5's. Their successor was the 7A4.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 12, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> So I ended up buying this matched pair of Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate for $450. Wow, most I've paid for 6SN7 tubes so far, hope I didn't overpaid for it. My only concern is that it's a TungSol branded as General Electric. Is that common or did I mistake in buying these and should cancel before they ship it out?
> 
> "
> ​
> ...



As far as I know, TungSol is the only US manufacturer that ever made a round plate 6SN7.  Most times I see something advertised as a round plate 6SN7 for less than big bucks, upon closer inspection it's always a 6SL7.  The round plates were used extensively in the 6SL7, but not the 6SN7.  One thing for sure with these tubes is that they were NOT made by GE. The round plate Tung Sols are supposed to be one of the holy grail 6SN7 breed, and with prices to match genuine ones. Sadly, I've never had the opportunity to hear one.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> As far as I know, TungSol is the only US manufacturer that ever made a round plate 6SN7.  Most times I see something advertised as a round plate 6SN7 for less than big bucks, upon closer inspection it's always a 6SL7.  The round plates were used extensively in the 6SL7, but not the 6SN7.  One thing for sure with these tubes is that they were NOT made by GE. The round plate Tung Sols are supposed to be one of the holy grail 6SN7 breed, and with prices to match genuine ones. Sadly, I've never had the opportunity to hear one.


You should have said something when we were doing the GE tube challenge, mine is now with other tubes I own about to be blind tested.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 12, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I have some single triode Sylvania's I termed the Naughty Girls, black plate, three hole, 6J5's. Their successor was the 7A4.


  Love it! I haven't heard every Sylvania made but prefer the Chrome Domes short bottle 6SN7GT ( getter flash three guarters the way down if not completely covering the entire glass) although one could argue here too that there is only ONE CHROME DOME. (1950)?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You should have said something when we were doing the GE tube challenge, mine is now with other tubes I own about to be blind tested.



You have a round plate Tung Sol?  *YOU* should have said something,  LOL!!

Although I certainly wouldn't have blamed you for _not_ putting it in a PVC pipe...that would have been almost sacrilegious and angered the tube gods.


----------



## Velozity

If you're patient and can buy singles then Tung Sol BGRP can usually be had for $150-$180 each.  If you need matched pairs that's a different story.


----------



## DenverW

Take a look at this one, my friend.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Tun...-6SN7-Audio-Amplifier-Tube-Valve/133314917530


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Take a look at this one, my friend.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Strong-Tun...-6SN7-Audio-Amplifier-Tube-Valve/133314917530


Think he's looking for a pair.


----------



## Propagandist

Figured this might be a good place to post some 6SN7 impressions.

I've done a lot of 6SN7 tube rolling over the past couple months since I've gotten my IHA-1 amp.  Being new to the hobby, I didn't really know how to interpret reviews from other people until I've actually heard things.  So, I went nuts and bought a lot of tubes.  I got my hands on matched pairs of GE GTBs, Raytheon GTBs, RCA GTBs, Sylvania GTAs, Sylvania 3-hole "Bad Boy" GTs, and some Ken Rad black glass GTs.

The GE 6SN7GTBs were some that I immediately knew I didn't like.  They just sounded too bright to me!  I'm not sure if they just weren't able to push enough current for the lower end, but it wasn't enjoyable to listen to at all for me.

I wasn't able to really tell a difference between Raytheon and RCA 6SN7GTBs.  They sound warm, tubey, and fun.  Plenty of bass to play with, and they reproduce highs sufficiently as well.  If I had to pick a favorite of this whole bunch, it would be these.  I have to add that it took several purchases to get Raytheons that I was happy with.  A whole lot of them that I purchased on ebay seemed to have the glass leaned over compared to the base, or the getter flashing was inconsistent between the matched pairs.  This is a very minor gripe, but it annoyed me.  For that reason I just ended up sticking with the RCAs, which all seemed to be pretty consistently made.  Some of the 60s vintage RCAs have a little filament that goes from hole to hole across the top of the tube.  I have no idea what (if anything) that would do sonically, since it's just the heater filament, but they're pretty. 

The Sylvania 6SN7 GTAs are a close second in preference.  They're not as warm as the RCAs/Raytheons, but they're by no means bright.  They're able to produce more detail in the highs.  Being treble sensitive, or at least treble aware, I'd normally consider that fatiguing after a long listening session.  But they are just so incredibly smooth!  It's hard to describe in words.  Something about its production of highs just doesn't bother me at all.  These are really great tubes, and I'd recommend everyone get a pair.  They're easy to recognize by their predominant getter flashing on the top, which gives them the "Chrome Dome" moniker.  Since the bases are tall, they seem to get hotter than the other tubes I've got.  Not sure if that will matter to anyone, but it's worth mentioning.

I was most surprised by the Sylvania 6SN7GTs, the 3-hole "Bad Boys".  I did not like these tubes -at all-.  They were like the Sylvania 6SN7GTAs, but without the smoothness.  They were forward, aggressive, and fatiguing.  Given that they sell for a premium, I had really high hopes for these tubes, and ended up returning them.  Maybe my ears are too lo-fi, but I don't see what all the fuss is about these.  

The Ken Rad 6SN7GT Black Glass tubes hold a special place in my collection.  Just like people say, the bass in these is phenomenal.  Lots of slam, lots of detail in the bass.  Extremely warm tubes that are just so fun to listen to.  They don't really reproduce detail as well as some of the other tubes I mention here, but that's not why you listen to these tubes.  Surprisingly, they don't seem to sacrifice soundstage to be able to produce the bass.  I kind of thought they would, but it's just as wide.  

I ended up downselecting my collection to Ken Rad 6SN7GTs, RCA 6SN7GTBs, and Sylvania 6SN7GTAs.  It provides me with a wide range of different sound signatures.  

I got backups for each of these so I should be set for the foreseeable future.  But now I'm broke.


----------



## Velozity

Paladin79 said:


> A current favorite of mine is the 1963 Melz on the left, some call them the 1578 but these rarely have those numbers on them. It has all the right attributes so I consider it the same tube. It is not as mids-forward as some of the other Melz I own, and like many of these Russian tubes, it is a good idea to replace the solder inside the pins Fotons are in the same club. I designed this amp to be fairly revealing of tube sound, and thus far those who have heard it seem to agree.




Nice.  What amp is that?


----------



## mourip

JKDJedi said:


> 6f8g are really nice and a very good conversation piece.. go for it. They sound very nice, you hear the difference immediately.
> Slyvania pictured.



I tried 6F8Gs in an amp that I used to own. I found that they were susceptible to picking up noise through the plate cap wire. I had to turn off my desk lamp to do listening and keep the wire bent away from the 5998 output tube. It may be that I did not get a pair of well made adapters. YMMV.


----------



## mourip

JKDJedi said:


> Wrong....no such thing as a philco Bad Boy, there is a bunch of Sylvanias out there that "might" share the Bad Boy sound but there is Only one "Bad Boy" tube out there. I've done my research for a few years before grabbing a pair myself. The Bad Boys are little taller too. 1952 is the year you want, and the top Mica has to have the 3 spikes on each end. Preferably the JAN-CHS version. Those are the real deal Holyfield Bad Boys.



Thanks for this. That "Bad Boy designation is pretty loosely used these days. I have even seen it used to describe non-6SN7 tubes on e$ay. No surprise I guess...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 17, 2020)

I have a '52 Philco 'Bad Boy'.  It's a re-badged Sylvania w/ 3-hole plates, tall bottle, rectangular bottom mica, rectangular top mica w/ 3- downward bent spikes per short side and bottom flashing.  I also have a '52 real Sylvania 'Bad Boy' and it is indistinguishable when compared to the Philco branded tube -- both physical attributes and sound-wise.  At least to these ears.

As far as I recall based on my research, Philco did not actually make tubes -- they entered into contracts with others to make tubes for them.  Early tubes were National Union/Lansdale and then it was Sylvania as we ll as others.  This applied to both 7N7 family of tubes and 6SN7s.


----------



## Paladin79

Velozity said:


> Nice.  What amp is that?


It is one I designed and built.


----------



## mourip

Ripper2860 said:


> I have a '52 Philco 'Bad Boy'.  It's a re-badged Sylvania w/ 3-hole plates, tall bottle, rectangular bottom mica, rectangular top mica w/ 3- downward bent spikes per short side and bottom flashing.  I also have a '52 real Sylvania 'Bad Boy' and it is indistinguishable when compared to the Philco branded tube -- both physical attributes and sound-wise.  At least to these ears.
> 
> As far as I recall based on my research, Philco did not actually make tubes -- they entered into contracts with others to make tubes for them.  Early tubes were National Union/Lansdale and then it was Sylvania as we ll as others.  This applied to both 7N7 family of tubes and 6SN7s.



To All: Speaking of 7N7s. This is a great tube and a real sleeper. You need a loctal adapter but these are very inexpensive and my second choice behind the TSRP.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 17, 2020)

I agree!!  Having a few of the notorious 'Frankies' and a couple of black glass Lansdale Philcos and even a Sylvania with copper support rod (ala 6SN7W), I can attest that the 7N7 family has some real hidden gems!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 17, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I have a '52 Philco 'Bad Boy'.  It's a re-badged Sylvania w/ 3-hole plates, tall bottle, rectangular bottom mica, rectangular top mica w/ 3- downward bent spikes per short side and bottom flashing.  I also have a '52 real Sylvania 'Bad Boy' and it is indistinguishable when compared to the Philco branded tube -- both physical attributes and sound-wise.  At least to these ears.
> 
> As far as I recall based on my research, Philco did not actually make tubes -- they entered into contracts with others to make tubes for them.  Early tubes were National Union/Lansdale and then it was Sylvania as we ll as others.  This applied to both 7N7 family of tubes and 6SN7s.




 Lansdale (left)  Philco (center) Sylvania  (right)

The three 7N7 are almost Identical. The Sylvania is a little shorter. The Philco (center) bottom mica different material than the Lansdale s (left).  And to my ears the three have some variants in sound, In a good way of course. I use to have a short bottled Philco 6SN7GT that had the Sylvania EIA code (312) that sounded great. As to who actually built these guys is an interesting subject. Philco may have built the Lansdale 7N7 but I'm not sure I'm on board that they built some Sylvanias, maybe the other away around. I could be persuaded though.


----------



## Jbucla2005

How is the Electro Harmonix 6SN7?


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 17, 2020)

Jbucla2005 said:


> How is the Electro Harmonix 6SN7?


From memory, (still in my drawer) nice treble, on the brighter side and fast. You might enjoy the Fotons over the Electro. Now I'm gonna have to roll the Electro just because...


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2020)

Propagandist said:


> Figured this might be a good place to post some 6SN7 impressions.
> 
> I've done a lot of 6SN7 tube rolling over the past couple months since I've gotten my IHA-1 amp.  Being new to the hobby, I didn't really know how to interpret reviews from other people until I've actually heard things.  So, I went nuts and bought a lot of tubes.  I got my hands on matched pairs of GE GTBs, Raytheon GTBs, RCA GTBs, Sylvania GTAs, Sylvania 3-hole "Bad Boy" GTs, and some Ken Rad black glass GTs.
> 
> ...



Interesting perceptions, you still have plenty of tubes to try but IMHO many tubes are amp dependent. One of my favorite tubes is the black glass Ken-Rad VT-231 and it scored toward the top in several of the blind tests friends helped me conduct. That tube and RCA grey glass from 1942 did quite well. Recently I worked on designing an amp that would allow for a closer examination of 6sn7 sound, @bcowen understood when he heard one. I have a tough time differentiating with a lot of modern headphone amps.


----------



## Propagandist

Paladin79 said:


> Interesting perceptions, you still have plenty of tubes to try but IMHO many tubes are amp dependent. One of my favorite tubes is the black glass Ken-Rad VT-231 and it scored toward the top in several of the blind tests friends helped me conduct. That tube and RCA grey glass from 1942 did quite well. Recently I worked on designing an amp that would allow for a closer examination of 6sn7 sound, @bcowen understood when he heard one. I have a tough time differentiating with a lot of modern headphone amps.


I'd love to have a couple pairs of the RCA grey glasses, but as I mentioned above, I ran out of money.


----------



## Paladin79

Propagandist said:


> I'd love to have a couple pairs of the RCA grey glasses, but as I mentioned above, I ran out of money.


It does get pricey at times, my current favorite tube is a 1963 Melz that can fetch $120 each, a quad of those in a Schiit Freya starts to get expensive lol.  There are plenty of inexpensive quality tubes around if you know what to look for and how to read manufacturers codes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 17, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Lansdale (left)  Philco (center) Sylvania  (right)
> 
> The three 7N7 are almost Identical. The Sylvania is a little shorter. The Philco (center) bottom mica different material than the Lansdale s (left).  And to my ears the three have some variants in sound, In a good way of course. I use to have a short bottled Philco 6SN7GT that had the Sylvania EIA code (312) that sounded great. As to who actually built these guys is an interesting subject. Philco may have built the Lansdale 7N7 but I'm not sure I'm on board that they built some Sylvanias, maybe the other away around. I could be persuaded though.



Very nice.  I also have CBRZ Lansdale 7N7s and must say they rank as my favorite of the 7N7s.  There's not a lot of information on Lansdale and even some speculation that Lansdale did not actually MFG tubes, but instead was an enhanced testing facility that ran more rigorous testing and certification for military tubes.  Of course, I have no definitive info on that, but I do suspect it could very well be true.

As to who made 7N7s, I'm of the mind that practically all 7N7s were Sylvania or under license from Sylvania -- including most Philcos.  My research has indicated that a VERY early Philco black smoked glass 7N7 with round-plates was actually a National Union-made tube and came out of the Lansdale location. It is a 7N7, but has round plates similar to 7AF7, however my research indicates the Philco black smoked glass tube was a 40's vintage and very rare.  It pre-dates the move to Sylvania re-branded tubes by Philco.  Many Philco 7N7 as well as practically all other 7N7s (GE, RCA, CBS/Hytron, CBRZ Lansdale, etc) are typically 50's vintage and very likely Sylvania.  Do keep in mind that not all Sylvania 7N7s are the same, just as not all Sylvania 6SN7s are the same -- even the tall bottle 7N7s.  Ask @bcowen about Frankie vs. Frankimposter.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2020)

I have them but have never been a big fan of the Frankies, rarely listen to them to be honest...there are just too many tubes I like better. They are a decent deal if you can get them for $20 so they are good for the price.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 17, 2020)

I give up.


----------



## Ripper2860

You can lead a horse to water ...


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> You can lead a horse to water ...


You can lead many horses to water as well, unfortunately we are going to pare down the 6s7n equivalents for our local testing to 50 tube types and the Frankie did not make the cut. Nor did Electro-Harmonix, GE, and some lower end Sylvania and RCA. A committee of ten are making the choices and the amount of tubes to be blind tested was getting out of hand. Opening up the testing to single triode tubes, Russian tubes, Chinese, and British tubes made for a pretty long list.


----------



## Ripper2860

Didn't even make the cut??  Now you went and hurt Frankie's feelings and likely have Bill all out of sorts!  I hope you're happy now!!


----------



## Paladin79

LOL what can I say, it kept finishing poorly in blind tests and when you start adding better and better tubes, they went farther and farther down the list. I gave up seven I owned so they would have plenty to compare. The short bottle version finished about the same place. There are some exceptionally fine tubes in this batch.


----------



## Spy Car (Mar 11, 2020)

Greetings all, I'm new to the game (and to the forum). I have a Dark Voice 336se in transit. It will be my first tube amp and am feeling anticipatory.

In the interim, I'm reading deeply into threads on tubes to educate myself.

In an impulse purchase, I grabbed a "pair" of Zenith tubes (one 6SN7GT and one 6SN7GTB  2 Hole Black Plates) that I saw on ebay late last night.

I have found little information on them in my searches. These were very reasonably priced and--frankly--they looked too cool to pass up.

Here are a few photos from the vendor.

Any info is appreciated. Now to find my first power tube.

Bill (who is realizing how this could potentially get addictive)


----------



## Velozity

Spy Car said:


> Greetings all, I'm new to the game (and to the forum). I have a Dark Voice 336se in transit. I will be my first tube amp and am feeling anticipatory.
> 
> In the interim, I'm reading deeply into threads on tubes to educate myself.
> 
> ...




Those are made by Sylvania, evidenced by the manufacturing code "280".  I think the GT was assembled in December 1958 and the GTB was April 1965 but I could be wrong.  Nice tubes, congrats!  I'll be listing about 10 premium 6SN7s for sale soon if you want your stash to grow.  PM me if interested.


----------



## Spy Car

Velozity said:


> Those are made by Sylvania, evidenced by the manufacturing code "280".  I think the GT was assembled in December 1958 and the GTB was April 1965 but I could be wrong.  Nice tubes, congrats!  I'll be listing about 10 premium 6SN7s for sale soon if you want your stash to grow.  PM me if interested.



I hope you are right about the date of the GT, as I'm vintage 1958 myself. LOL.

I will PM you.

Thanks for the information on these tubes. I can't wait to get this amp. I can't remember the last time I looked forward to an acquisition as much as this one.

Bill


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 11, 2020)

Velozity said:


> Those are made by Sylvania, evidenced by the manufacturing code "280".



I'm a bit confused.  My research indicates that code 280 is Raytheon MFG code and those tubes look like Raytheon tubes.  312 is Sylvania MFG code and the mica structure looks unlike any Sylvanias I'm familiar with.


----------



## cddc

Spy Car said:


> Greetings all, I'm new to the game (and to the forum). I have a Dark Voice 336se in transit. It will be my first tube amp and am feeling anticipatory.
> 
> In the interim, I'm reading deeply into threads on tubes to educate myself.
> 
> ...




You did it very well. 

These tubes look like Raytheon VT-231 to me. The price would have been doubled, had someone recognized them.


----------



## cddc

Well, to be exact, the GT one could be Raytheon VT-231, and it looks the same as my VT-231. The GTB one is not likely to be a VT-231, because GTB is a later production.


----------



## Spy Car

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm a bit confused.  My research indicates that code 280 is Raytheon MFG code and those tubes look like Raytheon tubes.  312 is Sylvania MFG code and the mica structure looks unlike any Sylvanias I'm familiar with.



When I look up the MFG code (no expert here) I'm also seeing Raytheon listed for my Zenith tubes.

I just scored a real "new" vintage NOS Tung-Sol Jan 5998 from a local tube wholesaler. Stoked!

Bill


----------



## Spy Car

cddc said:


> You did it very well.
> 
> These tubes look like Raytheon VT-231 to me. The price would have been doubled, had someone recognized them.



$25 for the pair. I did well?

Bill


----------



## cddc

Spy Car said:


> $25 for the pair. I did well?
> 
> Bill



Actually, very well. 

Raytheon VT-231 alone can easily cost $40+.


----------



## cddc

Spy Car said:


> When I look up the MFG code (no expert here) I'm also seeing Raytheon listed for my Zenith tubes.
> 
> I just scored a real "new" vintage NOS Tung-Sol Jan 5998 from a local tube wholesaler. Stoked!
> 
> Bill



Just curious:

How much did you pay for the 5998?


----------



## bcowen

Spy Car said:


> When I look up the MFG code (no expert here) I'm also seeing Raytheon listed for my Zenith tubes.
> 
> I just scored a real "new" vintage NOS Tung-Sol Jan 5998 from a local tube wholesaler. Stoked!
> 
> Bill



Welcome!  Be sure to check out this thread too. Lots of good info:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/

I have the same question as @cddc on the 5998. I've been looking for one for a while, but everything I've seen so far is more than I want to pay ('cause I'm cheap).


----------



## Spy Car

cddc said:


> Just curious:
> 
> How much did you pay for the 5998?



You will hate me. Especially when I post the pictures. And I recieved the original box with details.

5960 - 272 -8552
DAS 900 - 69 - C - 2451
A 3/69
JAN 5998
Wagner Electric Corp T.S Div

$38 plus tax.

I  think may have experienced a bit of "beginners luck." 

Now I just need the amp to arrive. LOL.

Bill


----------



## bcowen

Spy Car said:


> You will hate me. Especially when I post the pictures. And I recieved the original box with details.
> 
> 5960 - 272 -8552
> DAS 900 - 69 - C - 2451
> ...



You're right.  I hate you. 

Seriously, nice score!  Always fun to find a spectacular deal, and you sure did.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 11, 2020)

cddc said:


> Well, to be exact, the GT one could be Raytheon VT-231, and it looks the same as my VT-231. The GTB one is not likely to be a VT-231, because GTB is a later production.



GTB was introduced in 1954, IIRC.


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> GTB was introduced in 1954, IIRC.



Yep, VT-231's were made in 40's, so they can't be GTB's.


----------



## cddc

Spy Car said:


> You will hate me. Especially when I post the pictures. And I recieved the original box with details.
> 
> 5960 - 272 -8552
> DAS 900 - 69 - C - 2451
> ...



I won't hate you if you could pick up a pair for me as well...I'll pay additional 15% commission BTW....LOL


----------



## Velozity (Mar 11, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm a bit confused.  My research indicates that code 280 is Raytheon MFG code and those tubes look like Raytheon tubes.  312 is Sylvania MFG code and the mica structure looks unlike any Sylvanias I'm familiar with.




I stand corrected, thanks.  I should've checked my own stash first:


----------



## Spy Car (Mar 11, 2020)

cddc said:


> I won't hate you if you could pick up a pair for me as well...I'll pay additional 15% commission BTW....LOL



It is possible that I hit on a veritable motherload of vintage tubes.

My impression is there is a deep stock of the sort of items we covet. I'm just building the relationship--met the guy today through a friend's introduction. The guy supplies commercial buyers for industrial uses--not audio enthusiasts, who he seems to think are kooky, annoying and difficult.

But we hit it off and I'm welcome to come back.

He mentioned he has "little demand" for 5998s. Gulp. I know there are more. How many? I do not know. But I don't get the impression that he is in short supply.

After I told him which tube types work in the Darkvoice amp, he rolled off a long list of variants in both the 6SN7 and 6AS7 styles. He seems to have A LOT OF TUBES packed in his warehouse.

As I discover what's there, I will share.

Bill


----------



## bcowen

Spy Car said:


> As I discover what's there, I will share.



That part about me hating you?  I was just kidding.  Really.  Promise.  .


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You're right.  I hate you.
> 
> Seriously, nice score!  Always fun to find a spectacular deal, and you sure did.


I got two at that price as well but they are already promised.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I got two at that price as well but they are already promised.



OK great.  Then since I don't hate @Spy Car any more I'll hate you instead.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OK great.  Then since I don't hate @Spy Car any more I'll hate you instead.


Everyone needs a hobby.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 15, 2020)

A favorite tube in an amp I designed:
1963 Melz 6H8C sometimes called the 1578. This tube with a Tung Sol 5998 and I am happy. YMMV


----------



## brownstd

Velozity said:


> I stand corrected, thanks.  I should've checked my own stash first:


Pretty sure that the sylvania in the pic is an early VT 231. Internal structure definitely VT-231. CAA stands for Civil Aviation Authority--I think that was the labeling used prior to VT-231 from 1940 to 43(?).  If so, GREAT find.  These are hard to come by and are considered the best of the Sylvania VT-231 vintages.  The Raytheon 6sn7gt tubes are also very good (but more common).  Seems like you have found a goldmine.


----------



## Paladin79

This is the amp I designed for 6sn7 comparison, a fancier version of the basic four amps to be used in a 52 tube challenge some friends and I are working on. This amp, (top right) has a cabinet of tulip poplar and ebony with a 6as7g power tube.I gifted one to @bcowen  and he understands how the attempt is to let the tube characteristics shine, my purpose in building said amps.

I have my favorite 6sn7's but YMMV


----------



## Mikem53

Great write-up !!!  Many thanks to the OP for this great compilation of information !!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is the amp I designed for 6sn7 comparison, a fancier version of the basic four amps to be used in a 52 tube challenge some friends and I are working on. This amp, (top right) has a cabinet of tulip poplar and ebony with a 6as7g power tube.I gifted one to @bcowen  and he understands how the attempt is to let the tube characteristics shine, my purpose in building said amps.
> 
> I have my favorite 6sn7's but YMMV



Mine is WAY better than that one because of its Carolina Blue patina. But I'm still scratching my head wondering if the color was @Paladin79 's original intention or whether it just turned out that way on its own.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Mine is WAY better than that one because of its Carolina Blue patina. But I'm still scratching my head wondering if the color was @Paladin79 's original intention or whether it just turned out that way on its own.


Just dumb luck, I was hoping for Duke colors but it just didn't work out. I am including Foton's and RCA 6AS7G's as the base tubes, they do a decent job together.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Just dumb luck, I was hoping for Duke colors but it just didn't work out. I am including Foton's and RCA 6AS7G's as the base tubes, they do a decent job together.



At least it didn't turn out some ugly red color like some particular midwest schools.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> At least it didn't turn out some ugly red color like some particular midwest schools.


With comments like that, you best hope your amp never breaks.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> With comments like that, you best hope your amp never breaks.



I would expect it's so well engineered that the only failure I'll ever experience will be a worn out tube.


----------



## Ripper2860

BTW -. Tom engineered a light bending method that refracts light to make it look like Carolina Blue but it is actually Deacon Blue.  The only way you can really tell is in complete and total darkness.  Try it sometime.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I would expect it's so well engineered that the only failure I'll ever experience will be a worn out tube.


If it does break, I need to start practicing the phrase "It sucks to be you Bill".


----------



## Ripper2860

That's Bill's life every day.  The phrase you need to rehearse is "It sucks even more to be you today, Bill".


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> That's Bill's life every day.  The phrase you need to rehearse is "It sucks even more to be you today, Bill".



You guys are polluting this thread with worthless drivel.  Yes, there *is* value in consistency, but perhaps there are exceptions.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ooops.  I just realized that this is one of the most sacred threads at HF, IMHO.  I will refrain and take it to PM to continue with my further harassment.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Just dumb luck, I was hoping for Duke colors but it just didn't work out. I am including Foton's and RCA 6AS7G's as the base tubes, they do a decent job together.



An RCA 6AS7GA (straight bottle version of 6AS7G) and the Foton were the first tubes I put in mine.  The Foton is a great choice, IMO, for a tube that punches well above its (current) price point.  

Somehow I seem to have, um, _collected _quite a few '58's.  Trade 'ya some for some pin soldering?


----------



## Monahans67

I don't care what color it is that is one fine looking amp for sure.  You do great work Paladin.  I am sure Bill will treasure it for years to come.  That is if he doesn't let Ripper use it and not get it back.  LOL


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> An RCA 6AS7GA (straight bottle version of 6AS7G) and the Foton were the first tubes I put in mine.  The Foton is a great choice, IMO, for a tube that punches well above its (current) price point.
> 
> Somehow I seem to have, um, _collected _quite a few '58's.  Trade 'ya some for some pin soldering?


Sure I am just sitting around hoping for some work. Well and assembling this, but other than that I am free as a bird, glad to help out. I keep two for every one I solder for you, something like that?  58's happen to be the Fotons I am supplying.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> You guys are polluting this thread with worthless drivel.  Yes, there *is* value in consistency, but perhaps there are exceptions.


Really? What exceptions?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 18, 2020)

Monahans67 said:


> I don't care what color it is that is one fine looking amp for sure.  You do great work Paladin.  I am sure Bill will treasure it for years to come.  That is if he doesn't let Ripper use it and not get it back.  LOL


Thanks and Bill, with all his foibles and issues has given me several very nice tubes over the last couple years so it was my turn to be nice to the little fellow. It was also much easier to give him an amp than let him tell me what he wanted on one. I did have to build the darn thing sideways to fit his shelf he stole, um copied my design on.

Ripper wants an amp as well and so far his requests are not nearly as outlandish as some of the concentrated audio gibberish Bill has been known to exude.


----------



## jambaj0e

On my Cayin HA-300, I started out with the stock Shuguang WE6SN7 paired with the stock TJ Full Music 300b, went to a pair of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys, then Psvane CV-181T MkII that I paired with the Psvane ACME Supreme 300b (at $900/pr, the most expensive tubes I paid so far), before now going back to the Sylvania Bad Boys with the ACME 300bs.

My Cayin HA-300 tube amp with current tubes of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys + Psvane ACME Supreme 300b




The stock Shuguang WE6SN7+ TJ Full Music 300b: Very good sound with large soundstage, just left of neutral sound, with excellent musicality and lots of texture. Good bass but slightly lacking slam.

1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys + TJ Full Music 300b: Surprisingly dampened the treble region to the point that it was too laid back. Slight gain in the mid and mid-bass, but not too much of an improvement over the stock Shuguangs to warrant the change, especially at the cost of treble extension and energy.
Psvane CV-181T MkII + TJ Full Music 300b: My 2nd favorite combination with lots of musicality all around, better bass, slightly darker and warmer, and smooth but detailed treble. Warmer than other combination and most tube-like sound. Soundstage is slightly narrower, but not by much.


Psvane CV-181T MkII + Psvane ACME Supreme 300b: Wow, the soundstage, clarity, treble extension, and transient! This combination has a lot more air up top and just tons of space and detail. I didn't realize how much I was missing from previous combinations. I'm hearing micro-textures and things that I didn't realize were there before even though the stocks are already very, very good. BUT this ACME 300b tube is also challenging. It requires MINIMUM 100 hours of burning in, and don't reach its best form until almost 200 hours in. When I first got this tube, it was all what mentioned above, but also slimmer on the mid-bass and bass. There's clarity and detail, but not body in the bottom end. I almost hated it since I didn't have the lusciousness and body. Instead of returning it, I pressed on. I even bought a Schiit Loki to add some of the bass. It kinda works.


1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys + Psvane ACME Supreme 300b: Right around the 100 hours, the ACME 300bs finally opened up at the bottom end, and wow! I am now getting a lot of that beautiful bottom end and mids. Then I decided to switch back to the Sylvania Bad Boys, thinking that since the ACME 300bs are already modern sounding tubes, I may want to balance it out with vintage tubes, and boy did it paid off.  The Bad Boys are darker and warmer than the CV-181T, and that only help to complement the sound from the ACME 300bs. Now I have a warmer sound with beautiful mids, but unlike the TJ Full Music, I now have a lot of that treble extension and energy with this pairing. It also takes a bit of the excess energy up top and rounded it off a bit which I don't mind, since I still have a lot of resolution all over the place. There is still density without congestion, and you can place where instruments are in space.



Finally, with the Chord Qutest DAC and Audeze LCD-3 Fazor headphones, one thing that I notice with all my tubes, but ESPECIALLY with the ACME 300bs, the quality of source music really matters.Good to great recordings/mastering sound great, but bad ones, especially when placement of vocals and instruments are not optimal will not sounds that great. I also notice that I can notice dissonance and imperfect harmonization more with the ACMEs. It's very resolving and it does highlight both the good and bad in songs.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks and Bill, with all his foibles and issues has given me several very nice tubes over the last couple years so it was my turn to be nice to the *little* fellow. It was also much easier to give him an amp than let him tell me what he wanted on one. I did have to build the darn thing sideways to fit his shelf he stole, um copied my design on.



Little? 



Paladin79 said:


> Ripper wants an amp as well and so far his requests are not nearly as outlandish as some of the concentrated audio gibberish Bill has been known to exude.



I quit exuding audio gibberish last week.  But remind me again what value the fuse is? Need to get that Synergistic Research Orange on order tonight.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Really? What exceptions?



@Ripper2860 told me earlier, but I forgot already.


----------



## Monahans67

bcowen said:


> Little?
> 
> 
> 
> I quit exuding audio gibberish last week.  But remind me again what value the fuse is? Need to get that Synergistic Research Orange on order tonight.


You mean Ripper wanting Barbie and Ken Shaped tubes is not outlandish, geez.


----------



## bcowen

jambaj0e said:


> On my Cayin HA-300, I started out with the stock Shuguang WE6SN7 paired with the stock TJ Full Music 300b, went to a pair of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys, then Psvane CV-181T MkII that I paired with the Psvane ACME Supreme 300b (at $900/pr, the most expensive tubes I paid so far), before now going back to the Sylvania Bad Boys with the ACME 300bs.
> 
> My Cayin HA-300 tube amp with current tubes of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys + Psvane ACME Supreme 300b
> 
> ...



Nice write-up, and thanks for sharing!  The mesh plate 300B's are ultra cool looking to boot.


----------



## Monahans67

bcowen said:


> Nice write-up, and thanks for sharing!  The mesh plate 300B's are ultra cool looking to boot.


Dang thanks a lot guys.  I just had to wipe down my keyboard to get all the drool off it. LO L  Man what a nice set up.  Color me impressed.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Little?
> 
> 
> 
> I quit exuding audio gibberish last week.  But remind me again what value the fuse is? Need to get that Synergistic Research Orange on order tonight.


The fuse is whatever the fuse wants itself to be and I believe it feels comfortable at a rating of 2.5 amps. The fuse is new, as is the fuse holder, mess with it not.


----------



## Ripper2860

Monahans67 said:


> Dang thanks a lot guys.  I just had to wipe down my keyboard to get all the drool off it. LO L  Man what a nice set up.  Color me impressed.



I won't tell you what @bcowen most likely had to wipe.  Ewww.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The fuse is whatever the fuse wants itself to be and I believe it feels comfortable at a rating of 2.5 amps. The fuse is new, as is the fuse holder, mess with it not.



I'll work more on my humor, but thanks for the info anyway Yoda.


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> Ooops.  I just realized that this is one of the most sacred threads at HF, IMHO.  I will refrain and take it to PM to continue with my further harassment.


And deprive us of entertainment while we are in seclusion?


----------



## Ripper2860

No need to worry.  It's still open season on the Schiit Vali and Lyr 3  threads.


----------



## Monahans67

Ripper2860 said:


> No need to worry.  It's still open season on the Schiit Vali and Lyr 3  threads.


Yes it is, it is!!!!!


----------



## thomaskong78

I had been happy with Sylvania vt231 made in 1940's.

But some people claim that Bad boy version made in 1952 has better bass and body than vt231.

Can anybody confirm the below linked tubes are genuine "Bad boy"?

https://www.vivatubes.com/tests-nos...7gt-black-3-rivet-t-bad-boy-plate-tall-tubes/

thanks in advance


----------



## whirlwind

thomaskong78 said:


> I had been happy with Sylvania vt231 made in 1940's.
> 
> But some people claim that Bad boy version made in 1952 has better bass and body than vt231.
> 
> ...




Just from what you see of them in the picture, they look legit to me.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 22, 2020)

I am sending some of my concealed 6SN7’s with an amp so a friend can hear some classic tubes that match well with a Class A amp. One final test, @bcowen has heard them as well as Jason at Schiit and others.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 22, 2020)

Going through my rummage and found these guys in there, or forgot about them really... not sure how to read the date codes on these, is it year first then week? Thinking I have two from 1967 and one from 1960.. correct?
EDIt: doing some research and it seems that the two on the left are actually from 1957.. found this link to help with that presumption. https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/preamp/products/6sn7gtb-westinghouse-1957


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Going through my rummage and found these guys in there, or forgot about them really... not sure how to read the date codes on these, is it year first then week? Thinking I have two from 1967 and one from 1960.. correct?
> EDIt: doing some research and it seems that the two on the left are actually from 1957.. found this link to help with that presumption. https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/preamp/products/6sn7gtb-westinghouse-1957



With most US tube codes it's year then week (or quarter). Glad you found that link though 'cause I generally suck at deciphering dates.


----------



## barbz127

Is it worth grabbing a set of Ken rad Jan CKR 6sn7gt clear glass tops? Box says accepted may 1945.

Thankyou


----------



## JKDJedi

barbz127 said:


> Is it worth grabbing a set of Ken rad Jan CKR 6sn7gt clear glass tops? Box says accepted may 1945.
> 
> Thankyou


One of these?


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 24, 2020)

I received Freya+ this morning



I skipped JJ stock tubes and inserted Nos Amperex 6sn7gtb in gain stage and Sylvania 6sn7gtb in buffer stage.



After running demagnetization tracks twice( 6min each) on Freya and Jot R to drive Raal Sr1a headphone, I started listening to Capricio Italian (Tchaikovsky) directed by Bernstein.



Wow, Freya with Jot R sounds much better than Jot R only with more relaxed and nuanced details but with minimal loss of transparency



While it sounds slightly thin with Jot R only.



Old Jazz recording by Benny Goodman sounds more relaxed with less hot edge from Freya and Jot R.



My digital source is Dave and HMS.



I use 20ft Purist Audio Design balanced cable between Dave and Freya and 6ft Synergistic Research balanced cable between Freya and Jot R.



I still have several choice of tube rolling with Sylvania vt231, RCA gray glass 6sn7gt and all quad Syl 6sn7 gtb.



Audio depends on personal preference, but Freya fitted with Nos tubes and Jot R sounds much more musical to my ears than Jot R only with overall nuanced presentation.



Although I had enjoyed fast and exciting sound out of Sr1a driven by Jot R for the last three months, I keep going back to 009s driven by Kgsshv Carbon amp to get more relaxed sound.



With Freya and Jot R, Sr1a move halfway between Jot R only and 009s with relaxed presentation.





Out of curiosity, I am driving HD 800s out of Rca output of Freya using "Hosa TPR-257" adapter bought from Amazon.


Wow, Freya+ is also a killer amp for HD 800s.



I had driven HD 800s by headphone output of Dave and HMS.



It sounds transparent but with one note bass.





But with Freya in the chain after Dave, HD 800s sounds almost perfect with nice soundstage, clean details and full and textured bass.

Freya also makes sound of 009s driven by Kgsshv Carbon amp more graceful.




Freya + use 4 6sn7 tubes, two in gain stage and two more in buffer.

It is kind of dream amp for tube rolling of 6sn7.

I have Nos Syl vt 231,GTB,  Rca, Tungsol tubes to roll.


----------



## barbz127

JKDJedi said:


> One of these?



Similar markings but not identical.


----------



## thomaskong78

So far RCA gray glass 6sn7 is best in Freya+ for my taste with warm and lush sound.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> So far RCA gray glass 6sn7 is best in Freya+ for my taste with warm and lush sound.


A very good tube indeed, I have also used a quad of Melz 1578's that I like and other friends have liked them as well in the Freya. Another favorite is the CBS/Hytron 5692. The RCA grey glass and Ken-Rad black glass VT-231 are among my favorite tubes in the under $1,000 range. I personally listen to them in my builds along with 1963 Melz.


----------



## Jon L

thomaskong78 said:


> So far RCA gray glass 6sn7 is best in Freya+ for my taste with warm and lush sound.


If your tastes align with RCA gray glass 6SN7, keep an eye out for National Union Gray Glass 6SN7/VT231.
IME, if a component uses 2 6SN7 per channel, I usually find the best final sound is obtained by combining two different types of 6SN7, one from "warm, rich" camp and one from "fast, detailed" camp.


----------



## Paladin79

Jon L said:


> If your tastes align with RCA gray glass 6SN7, keep an eye out for National Union Gray Glass 6SN7/VT231.
> IME, if a component uses 2 6SN7 per channel, I usually find the best final sound is obtained by combining two different types of 6SN7, one from "warm, rich" camp and one from "fast, detailed" camp.


I do that with some tubes and it is sure easier to find matching pairs than matching quads on some of the older tubes.


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> I do that with some tubes and it is sure easier to find matching pairs than matching quads on some of the older tubes.



List of my 6sn7 tube

1. quad Syl vt231
2. quad Syl GTB made in 1955
3. Two Amperex 6sn7 made in Canada
4. Six Rca gray glass
5. Two Tungsol 6snygt "Mouse Years"
6. Two Syl GT "Bad boy " coming in next Monday
7. Two Melz 6n8s coming in May
8. Two Tungsol roundplate 12sn7(not sure it can be used for 6ns7 slot)
9. Two CBS/Hytron 6ns7gt


List of my 6sl7 tube

1. One mullard ECC85
2. One Kenrad vt 229
3. Two Tungsol 12slgt( not sure it can be used for 6sl7 slot)
4. Two Syl vt229

I will mix and roll in Freya.

It is going to be lot of work.

I had bought socket savers to protect socket from too frequent tube rolling.


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> List of my 6sn7 tube
> 
> 1. quad Syl vt231
> 2. quad Syl GTB made in 1955
> ...


So that's why they're called socket savers ..  interesting.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 25, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> So that's why they're called socket savers ..  interesting.


https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/socket-saver-8-pin

I bought 6 of them over there but I shall have bought 7 instead.


----------



## barbz127

Can anyone comment on how the new production Tung sol 6sn7gtb tubes perform?

Good value for money?


----------



## mourip (Apr 25, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> Tungsol roundplate 12sn7(not sure it can be used for 6ns7 slot)
> 
> Tungsol 12slgt( not sure it can be used for 6sl7 slot)



In the spirit of helpfulness ...

There is a significant difference between a *6*SN7/6SL7 and a *12*SN7/12SL7. The "12" means that it requires a 12 volt heater supply. The only amps that I know of that support a 12 volt 6SN7 are the LTA MicroZotl head/Pre amps which have jumpers so that you can use either 6 or 12 volt tubes. There may be other amps also but you do not want to run a tube that needs a 12v heater with only 6v.

Apologies if this is obvious to you but perhaps it might help someone else wanting to go down the tube swapping rabbit hole!
BTW. The TSRP 12SN7 is my current favorite in my LTA Pre.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 25, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> List of my 6sn7 tube
> 
> 1. quad Syl vt231
> 2. quad Syl GTB made in 1955
> ...



That is a decent list.
Which two Melz do you have coming in May? If the 1578 style I have found the year to be important, and many need pin re-soldering.

I own everything you list except for the Amperex and 12sn7's, I bought most 6sn7's of the various brands I could find as part of different tube challenges including those built for other brand names. I also purchased black and grey glass versions of most all tube types. I have had a few Freya's as well as a half dozen other amps that use 6sn7's and since I have 30 amps to build I still have plenty of 6sn7 listening to do. I build my own socket savers as well as some tube adapters, when time allows.
I have also listened to many different single triode tubes like 7A4's and 6J5's.


----------



## bcowen

mourip said:


> In the spirit of helpfulness ...
> 
> There is a significant difference between a *6*SN7/6SL7 and a *12*SN7/12SL7. The "12" means that it requires a 12 volt heater supply. The only amps that I know of that support a 12 volt 6SN7 are the LTA MicroZotl head/Pre amps which have jumpers so that you can use either 6 or 12 volt tubes. There may be other amps also but you do not want to run a tube that needs a 12v heater with only 6v.
> 
> ...



Spot on advice.  I'll just add that there's also a big difference between a 6S*N*7 and a 6S*L*7, the latter having 3.5x the gain of the former. Unlikely that plugging a 6SL7 into an amp designed for a 6SN7 will cause any harm or damage, but the significant extra gain may lead to distortion or having to use the volume control at the very bottom of its range where most pots are less balanced and/or linear between the channels.


----------



## JKDJedi

barbz127 said:


> Can anyone comment on how the new production Tung sol 6sn7gtb tubes perform?
> 
> Good value for money?


They're ok, my first buy, the red base. The original is a little better and cost less if you can find them.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/143585889653


----------



## Gazny

Any socket saver recommendations? I'm in the market to pick one up


----------



## bcowen

Gazny said:


> Any socket saver recommendations? I'm in the market to pick one up



Although I've never tried one myself, many are impressed with the ones TubeMonger makes. Expensive, but look to be very high quality. Appears they're out of stock on octal versions right now, but you could check and see when they expect to have more available.  Always the ones from China through Ebay. Cheap, and cheap (price and construction).    And fellow HeadFi member @Deyan does some very nice work. Huge step up from anything you'll get from China or Hong Kong. I've purchased several adapters from him and have been very pleased with the quality and quick turnaround. His prices are quite reasonable, but he's in Bulgaria so you'd have to wait a bit for delivery. But send him a PM if you're interested.


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 25, 2020)

Gazny said:


> Any socket saver recommendations? I'm in the market to pick one up


Like Bcowen mentioned above, depends on what you want. Google is your friend. https://www.google.com/search?q=soc...rome..69i57.9504j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 and post #1398 just mentioned a link a few posts above..


----------



## SHIMACM

Can anyone tell me the year of manufacture of these tubes and if they are actually 6sn7wgt or wgta?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 25, 2020)

My latest 6sn7 listening station, I built @bcowen one for the small shelf he copied from me, so I figured I would make my own. Tulip poplar and ebony. Listening to a 1958 Foton till I make sure all is well and start installing nicer tubes.   
The amp is intended to let the 6sn7 shine, and some of my test subjects seem to be able to discern between various tubes to a greater extent with said design. Being a Gemini, I added two of most everything so it should be twice as good as Bill's amp.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My latest 6sn7 listening station, I built @bcowen one for the small shelf he copied from me, so I figured I would make my own. Tulip poplar and ebony. Listening to a 1958 Foton till I make sure all is well and start installing nicer tubes.
> The amp is intended to let the 6sn7 shine, and some of my test subjects seem to be able to discern between various tubes to a greater extent with said design. Being a Gemini, I added two of most everything so it should be twice as good as Bill's amp.



Wait....you copied the amp you made me?  What?  When can I expect my royalty check?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wait....you copied the amp you made me?  What?  When can I expect my royalty check?


Drat I give you a headphone amp and now I have to pay you too??  Can I just send you a cat instead? I just knew this would be trouble.


----------



## MLGrado

thomaskong78 said:


> I had been happy with Sylvania vt231 made in 1940's.
> 
> But some people claim that Bad boy version made in 1952 has better bass and body than vt231.
> 
> ...



Damn good tubes, those VT-231.  I have listened to most all those later models that are supposed to be 'better'.  Not to my ear.  

WW2 era VT-231 are special stuff.  Pretty much everybody made a great one then.   I have 5 pair of the smoke/grayed out RCA VT-231 from early 40's.  Awesome stuff.  Also have a couple pair of Ken Rad too.  

My ears REALLY like the predecessor the the 6SN7, though.  I have invested in a dozen or so pair of 6F8G.  My current go to pair is made by Tung Sol.  Pure heaven.  

Only negative compared to the 6SN7 is microphonics.  6F8G can be very microphonic, and it seems all of them may be just a touch so.  But the best examples are low enough it isn't any real consequence.


----------



## MLGrado (Apr 25, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Going through my rummage and found these guys in there, or forgot about them really... not sure how to read the date codes on these, is it year first then week? Thinking I have two from 1967 and one from 1960.. correct?
> EDIt: doing some research and it seems that the two on the left are actually from 1957.. found this link to help with that presumption. https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/preamp/products/6sn7gtb-westinghouse-1957



tube codes can be a pain.  Even when there are agreed upon rules, makers still seemed to find a way to muck things up and leave a confusing mess.

Date code on that far right tube is 60-48. Made in the 48th week of 1960.

The other are somewhat confusing.  The 3 digit code  743 is the date code.  7 is the year, 43 is the week.  Now what decade?  You have to look at the construction and compare to others.  (there are some other things that go into it as well, but I don't want to confuse both myself and everyone else  )

Now, I am NOT sure what the 'R' is doing in the middle of the date code on the other tube.

Getting back to the answer, the most reasonable decade IMO is the 50's.

So the others are made 43rd week of 1957..


----------



## JKDJedi

MLGrado said:


> Damn good tubes, those VT-231.  I have listened to most all those later models that are supposed to be 'better'.  Not to my ear.
> 
> WW2 era VT-231 are special stuff.  Pretty much everybody made a great one then.   I have 5 pair of the smoke/grayed out RCA VT-231 from early 40's.  Awesome stuff.  Also have a couple pair of Ken Rad too.
> 
> ...


Have just the one Sylvania 6F8G and yup microphonics galor, which I enjoy very much, gives that 1940's nostalgic sound you kinda want from a tube that's 80 plus years old.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Drat I give you a headphone amp and now I have to pay you too??  Can I just send you a cat instead? I just knew this would be trouble.



Finally.  Sheeez, I open the box and carefully packed inside is a beautiful amp, but clearly no cat. I was hoping for at least a kitten.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 26, 2020)

I also ordered red brown bass Sylvania 6n7wgt and 1956 Tungsol Tall bottle tubes from Ebay today.

No end to vintage collecting greed.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 26, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> I also ordered red brown bass Sylvania 6n7wgt and 1956 Tungsol Tall bottle tubes from Ebay today.
> 
> No end to vintage collecting greed.



Hoping you meant 6*S*N7?  

Be interested in your impression of the Tung Sols. I have a couple mouse ears and some '60's-era short bottle T-plate versions, but that's the extent of my experience with TS 6SN7's. I take a look every now and then hoping to find a screaming deal on a round plate Tung Sol (considered by many to be in holy grail territory), but the prices are most certainly not a deal, screaming or otherwise.


----------



## Jon L

bcowen said:


> I take a look every now and then hoping to find a screaming deal on a round plate Tung Sol (considered by many to be in holy grail territory), but the prices are most certainly not a deal, screaming or otherwise.



Sadly, that kind of price gouging is what happens when a couple of "guru's" hype something, a couple dozen followers repeat them, then 20 years later, voila!
The Tung-Sol VT-231 6SN7 roundplate tube is a very good tube, but not nearly deserving the pricetag today.  If some of you get a chance, have somebody swap the tubes without you knowing which, and directly compare the TS roundplates to something like Sylvania 1940's 6SN7/VT231 and see what happens...


----------



## bcowen

Jon L said:


> Sadly, that kind of price gouging is what happens when a couple of "guru's" hype something, a couple dozen followers repeat them, then 20 years later, voila!
> The Tung-Sol VT-231 6SN7 roundplate tube is a very good tube, but not nearly deserving the pricetag today.  If some of you get a chance, have somebody swap the tubes without you knowing which, and directly compare the TS roundplates to something like Sylvania 1940's 6SN7/VT231 and see what happens...



Quite true. Still want to hear one, but at those prices I'll continue just wanting to hear one. 

Same routine with Bad Boys. Seems like every other Sylvania 6SN7 listing on Ebay these days has Bad Boy somewhere in the title.  I have a couple (that meet the definition), and while I find them to be very good sounding tubes they don't even make my personal top 5 list.


----------



## Paladin79

Jon L said:


> Sadly, that kind of price gouging is what happens when a couple of "guru's" hype something, a couple dozen followers repeat them, then 20 years later, voila!
> The Tung-Sol VT-231 6SN7 roundplate tube is a very good tube, but not nearly deserving the pricetag today.  If some of you get a chance, have somebody swap the tubes without you knowing which, and directly compare the TS roundplates to something like Sylvania 1940's 6SN7/VT231 and see what happens...


I have come across two people that can blindly identify tubes consistently, one who can tell you brand name and types. One who can repeatedly match tubes in the same order that she chose an hour before. Rarity is a factor, and anticipation. If you search and search for an RCA black glass, it is hard to say you do not care for the sound when you finally own one and hear it lol.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 26, 2020)

Jon L said:


> Sadly, that kind of price gouging is what happens when a couple of "guru's" hype something, a couple dozen followers repeat them, then 20 years later, voila!
> The Tung-Sol VT-231 6SN7 roundplate tube is a very good tube, but not nearly deserving the pricetag today.  If some of you get a chance, have somebody swap the tubes without you knowing which, and directly compare the TS roundplates to something like Sylvania 1940's 6SN7/VT231 and see what happens...


About 20 years ago, I got WE300B made in 1940's at 3k$.

I had run more than 10K hours on it but it is still working  fine.

Recently I had  tried to get one more pair as spare without success.
Someone asked for 10k $ on used one in good condition.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> About 20 years ago, I got WE300B maded in 1940's at 3k$.
> 
> I had run more than 10K hours on it but it is still working  fine.
> 
> ...


Highly sought after for sure. Supply and demand.


----------



## barbz127

Is the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT VT-231 (bottom getter, plates have two holes) classed as a Vt-231, the GT, bad boy or something else?

I have a set of these on order locally and should have them in a day or 4


----------



## thomaskong78

barbz127 said:


> Is the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT VT-231 (bottom getter, plates have two holes) classed as a Vt-231, the GT, bad boy or something else?
> 
> I have a set of these on order locally and should have them in a day or 4


It is classified as just vt231 which had been my go 6sn7 tube in Line Magnetic 508 amp for the last 2 years.

It is transparent with lot of details.

Bad boy version is made in 1952 which I expect to get one tomorrow.

I will compare Bad boy and vt231 to find out Bad boy is hyped up or not.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have come across two people that can blindly identify tubes consistently, one who can tell you brand name and types. One who can repeatedly match tubes in the same order that she chose an hour before. Rarity is a factor, and anticipation. If you search and search for an RCA black glass, it is hard to say you do not care for the sound when you finally own one and hear it lol.



Speaking of black glass, how about some Grandpa Frankies?  Had to think about these quite a bit, but in a final moment of weakness I bit the bullet and spent the $20.  LOL!!


----------



## thomaskong78

bcowen said:


> Speaking of black glass, how about some Grandpa Frankies?  Had to think about these quite a bit, but in a final moment of weakness I bit the bullet and spent the $20.  LOL!!


They look nice with all the clear date code.

Is 7n7 interchangeable with 6sn7?


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> About 20 years ago, I got WE300B made in 1940's at 3k$.
> 
> I had run more than 10K hours on it but it is still working  fine.
> 
> ...



Depending on the voltages yours are seeing in your amp, you may _never_ need to replace them. I've seen several stories of the WE's running 24/7 for 30+ years in older (ie: pre digital) telephone equipment and were still going strong when finally removed from service.  I have probably close to 10k hours on the KR 300BXLS's (high current 300B version) in my Jota amp and they're still sounding as good as ever. I have a backup pair I pop in every now and then just to see if I can detect any degradation in the originals, and so far I can't hear a bit of difference.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> They look nice with all the clear date code.
> 
> Is 7n7 interchangeable with 6sn7?



The 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a loctal instead of an octal base. Adapters required due to the base and pinout differences, but they are identical electrically.


----------



## thomaskong78

bcowen said:


> The 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a loctal instead of an octal base. Adapters required due to the base and pinout differences, but they are identical electrically.



https://www.angela.com/tubeconversionadapter6sn7octal8pinbottomto7n7loctal8pintop.aspx
I found adapter for it.

But I may not go for 7n7 tube with additional cost of 60$.

Anyway, it will be helpful for your to compare the SQ of your 7n7 and other 6sn7 like Syl vt 231.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> https://www.angela.com/tubeconversionadapter6sn7octal8pinbottomto7n7loctal8pintop.aspx
> I found adapter for it.
> 
> But I may not go for 7n7 tube with additional cost of 60$.
> ...



Here's a start:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Speaking of black glass, how about some Grandpa Frankies?  Had to think about these quite a bit, but in a final moment of weakness I bit the bullet and spent the $20.  LOL!!


LOL just keep them in the Lyr and you will be happy. They might even be all right in a Freya but I cannot recall trying any there.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> They look nice with all the clear date code.
> 
> Is 7n7 interchangeable with 6sn7?


It is, you just need a Loktal to Octal socket adapter. A single triode version of the 6sn7 is the 7A4, it is Loktal as well. You need two of them and a special adapter.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 26, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> It is, you just need a Loktal to Octal socket adapter. A single triode version of the 6sn7 is the 7A4, it is Loktal as well. You need two of them and a special adapter.


The only problem is that I still have too many 6sn7s tubes to roll into Freya.

I will consider 7n7 after finishing options on 6sn7s


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> The only problem is that I still have too many 6sn7s tubes to roll into Freya.
> 
> I will consider 7n7 after finishing options on 6sn7s


There are a lot of choices out there, and to be honest I roll tubes less in Freya than in headphone amps and a lot less often on the buffer side of the amp. Tubes I sent Schiit for blind testing were used in a Saga as a buffer stage and I am not so sure how much difference I could have heard between quality tubes. I own or have owned most ever bit of tube gear Schiit has made including Coaster amps. I did early builds on those as well. For my ears, I needed to create my own amp and in it the 7n7's do not sound as good to me as I hoped so I do not use them a lot right now.


----------



## MLGrado

thomaskong78 said:


> They look nice with all the clear date code.
> 
> Is 7n7 interchangeable with 6sn7?



With correct pin adapter yes.  I have a pair of Philco 7n7.  Sounds nice.  Not enough listening to them yet to say much more.


----------



## MLGrado

Jon L said:


> Sadly, that kind of price gouging is what happens when a couple of "guru's" hype something, a couple dozen followers repeat them, then 20 years later, voila!
> The Tung-Sol VT-231 6SN7 roundplate tube is a very good tube, but not nearly deserving the pricetag today.  If some of you get a chance, have somebody swap the tubes without you knowing which, and directly compare the TS roundplates to something like Sylvania 1940's 6SN7/VT231 and see what happens...



I have yet to pony up the $$$ for a pair of early Tung-Sol 6SN7.  I have several pair of Tung Sol 6F8G, though, from early 1940's.  To my ear they are indeed the best sounding ones I own.  Fortunately (at least at the time I bought them) the 6F8G Tung Sol's were not nearly as expensive as the 6SN7.


----------



## thomaskong78

MLGrado said:


> I have yet to pony up the $$$ for a pair of early Tung-Sol 6SN7.  I have several pair of Tung Sol 6F8G, though, from early 1940's.  To my ear they are indeed the best sounding ones I own.  Fortunately (at least at the time I bought them) the 6F8G Tung Sol's were not nearly as expensive as the 6SN7.


Is 6F8g interchangeable with 6sn7?


----------



## mourip

thomaskong78 said:


> Is 6F8g interchangeable with 6sn7?



Yes. It is electrically equivalent but you need a pin adapter as the 6F8G has a plate cap and so has a different pinout. You can get them on eBay.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL just keep them in the Lyr and you will be happy. They might even be all right in a Freya but I cannot recall trying any there.



Yes, the Frankie makes me happy in the Lyr 3.  Bigger surprise though is how it sounds in the Vali 2.  Could even be an end-game tube in that amp.  In your amp, the 7N7 failed to impress.  Not a proclamation one way or the other on either the amp or the tube, but more just underscores the importance of synergy between the amp, the tube....and the listener.  One interesting difference: both the Lyr and the Vali are hybrids where the gain in your amp is solely from the tubes. Perhaps something to that, or perhaps the Frankie is just more enjoyable to some than others which can also be said for most other tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yes, the Frankie makes me happy in the Lyr 3.  Bigger surprise though is how it sounds in the Vali 2.  Could even be an end-game tube in that amp.  In your amp, the 7N7 failed to impress.  Not a proclamation one way or the other on either the amp or the tube, but more just underscores the importance of synergy between the amp, the tube....and the listener.  One interesting difference: both the Lyr and the Vali are hybrids where the gain in your amp is solely from the tubes. Perhaps something to that, or perhaps the Frankie is just more enjoyable to some than others which can also be said for most other tubes.


You should sell most of those tubes to Ripper, once he gets one of my amps you can buy them back at half price. I no longer even turn on the Lyr, or Mjolnir or Vali or even a highly modified BH Crack that I tuned for my ears.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You should sell most of those tubes to Ripper...



I would, but he'd put them in backwards and then claim I sold him dead tubes.


----------



## Jon L

MLGrado said:


> Fortunately (at least at the time I bought them) the 6F8G Tung Sol's were not nearly as expensive as the 6SN7.



Unfortunately, people have caught on to this 6F8G thing...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VT-99-TUNG...578331?hash=item3b1235ae1b:g:sIgAAOSwFuZbL5gH


----------



## bcowen

mourip said:


> Yes. It is electrically equivalent but you need a pin adapter as the 6F8G has a plate cap and so has a different pinout. You can get them on eBay.



Glad you mentioned this.  Kind of forgot they were in the stash.  I'll have to give it a try in the Incubus.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I would, but he'd put them in backwards and then claim I sold him dead tubes.


I am adding pre-amp out to some of the amps, I need to check it with the Cary soon. I would tell you my favorite 6sn7 with the amp but I included one with a sample amp for blind listening and I do not want to spill the beans.


----------



## MLGrado

bcowen said:


> I would, but he'd put them in backwards and then claim I sold him dead tubes.




HAHA

On a more serious note, I have had similar experiences selling tubes on eBay.  Send perfect tubes, buyer claims they are dead or measure poorly.  Wants to keep but also wants partial refund.. I hate online fraud so much..


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 28, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> On my Cayin HA-300, I started out with the stock Shuguang WE6SN7 paired with the stock TJ Full Music 300b, went to a pair of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys, then Psvane CV-181T MkII that I paired with the Psvane ACME Supreme 300b (at $900/pr, the most expensive tubes I paid so far), before now going back to the Sylvania Bad Boys with the ACME 300bs.
> 
> My Cayin HA-300 tube amp with current tubes of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys + Psvane ACME Supreme 300b
> 
> ...


I also have Psavne Acme 300B and 805 tubes in my Line Magnetic 805 int amp.
They are best new production  tubes that I had ever tried with transparent and clean details.

I had been using Syl vt 231 in the amp for the last 2 years which is very transparent with good extension on top and details.

Last week, I swapped it with RCA gray which give more warm and lush sounnd.


Yesterday I received "Bad boy " version from reliable dealer.

it sound closer to RCA gray bottle than vt 231 with warm sound but rather closed top extension.

My Lansche 4.1 speaker with plasma tweeter has good extension on top.

After 10 hours with Bad boy, I prefer it to vt231 in my 2 channel system with more pleasing balance.


But Bad boy  may not work well with headphones which tend to have limited top extension.

I also expect delivery of Tungsol mouse ear this afternoon.

Since I do not have enough time to do tube rolling of more than 9 sets of tubes , I had better stop buying binge of 6sn7 tubes


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am adding pre-amp out to some of the amps, I need to check it with the Cary soon. I would tell you my favorite 6sn7 with the amp but I included one with a sample amp for blind listening and I do not want to spill the beans.



Aw, c'mon.  Share some beans. Your secret is safe with us. Absolutely. No question.  None of us would tell a soul....at least until after we stashed up.


----------



## bcowen

MLGrado said:


> HAHA
> 
> On a more serious note, I have had similar experiences selling tubes on eBay.  Send perfect tubes, buyer claims they are dead or measure poorly.  Wants to keep but also wants partial refund.. I hate online fraud so much..



I guess I've been pretty lucky in that regard. I've sold quite a number on Ebay with only 1 really bad experience.  Had another instance too where I sold a used (but strong testing) quad of Telefunken EL-84's. The guy was delighted and sent me a long email about how glorious they were in his amp.  Then about 3 weeks later he emailed again saying one of them had red-plated. He wasn't demanding or even asking for anything, just said he knew it kind of came with the territory but wanted to let me know.  I didn't have any others or I'd have just put one in the mail to him. I offered to take them all back and refund him in total, but he said they sounded so good he didn't want to part with them and would look for another to match up.  I refunded him half of what he'd paid for the quad, not because I had to but because it was the right thing to do. Never heard back if he found a suitable mate for the 3 good ones.


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, I bought this tube. Is it a legitimate Good Boy?


----------



## DenverW

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, I bought this tube. Is it a legitimate Good Boy?



Do you mean “bad boy”?  I can’t tell from the picture.


----------



## barbz127

I read comments that 6sn7 are prone to microphonics, is this due to the construction? Or is it purely because they are popular in audio so more in use vs other tube types?

Is there anyway to tell how microphonic a tube is without having it connected? Ie woild it sound loose if you tap one or is that common with the 6sn7 construction?


----------



## DenverW

There isn’t a way to tell by my knowledge from looking at the tube.  Even some tubes with a loose base will sound fine, and a tube that looks perfect will be a mess.  The tubes are often more than 50 years old, so unless you pay more and get a “tested” tube sometimes you just won’t know.


----------



## thomaskong78

After seeing good deal on RCA vt231 and Kenrad vt231, I could not resist it.



i pulled the trigger for both of them.


----------



## barbz127

I know the Ken rad eBay item and was going to buy after work tonight


----------



## SHIMACM

DenverW said:


> Do you mean “bad boy”?  I can’t tell from the picture.



So the tube is from November 1951, according to the seller. The only difference for the "Bad Boy" is the fact that it has only two holes per rod.

Does anyone know?


----------



## Paladin79

barbz127 said:


> I read comments that 6sn7 are prone to microphonics, is this due to the construction? Or is it purely because they are popular in audio so more in use vs other tube types?
> 
> Is there anyway to tell how microphonic a tube is without having it connected? Ie woild it sound loose if you tap one or is that common with the 6sn7 construction?


I have never found the 6sn7's to be more or less prone to microphonics than any other tube and between what I own and what local friends own, we have in excess of 1,000 different tubes from all over the world. Within specific brands there can be a few issues but nothing severe.


----------



## DenverW

SHIMACM said:


> So the tube is from November 1951, according to the seller. The only difference for the "Bad Boy" is the fact that it has only two holes per rod.
> 
> Does anyone know?



The bad boy tubes have three hole plates, so it would be a different tube then.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 30, 2020)

Updated list of 6sn7 that I have

1. Six Syl vt231
2. quad Syl GTB made in 1955
3. Two Amperex 6sn7 made in Canada
4. Six Rca gray glass
5. Two Tungsol 6snygt "Mouse ears"
6. Two Syl GT "Bad boy "
7. Two Melz 6n8s coming in May
8. Six Tungsol 6sn7gtb
9. Two CBS/Hytron 6ns7gt
10, Three red brown base Syl 6sn7wgt
11. Four RCA vt231 coming on next Monday
12. Two Kenrad vt231 coming on next Monday
13 Two Shuaguang Black treasure 181cvz


Considering that Schitt Freya +takes four 6Sn7, I now have decent collection of 6sn7.

With higher filament current, I am not going to use 181cvz in Freya+.

By the way Freya + give lot of bang for the money.

I connect Freya to my headphone amplifiers (Kgsshv Carbon and Schitt Jot R).

It makes sound out of Stax 009s, Raal Sr1a, Sennheiser HD 800s more enjoyable.


Pair of Tungsol roundplate are too expensive for me to afford.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Raytheon vt231 has a reputation of aggressive sound thus I am not ready to buy one.


After two days of listening, I am happy with "Bad boy" in Line Magnetic 508.

Compared with Syl vt231, it give fuller bass and sweeter but rather closed in treble.

In warm system or headphone, Syl vt231 may work better.



While I had enjoyed Syl vt231 for the last two years with transparent, excellent top extension and nice details, Bad boy appears to be better fit in my revealing two channel system with excellent treble extension out of plasma tweeter.

I just ordered one more "Bad boy" as reserve.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Apr 30, 2020)

DenverW said:


> The bad boy tubes have three hole plates, so it would be a different tube then.


Do not be disappointed too much.

It may work well in your system.

Some people reported good result with two hole tube.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> Updated list of 6sn7 that I have
> 
> 1. Six Syl vt231
> 2. quad Syl GTB made in 1955
> ...



You're almost to 50. That's the minimum required to get your official Tube Hoarders Collectors certificate.  When you get to 100, you get a plaque. 500?  That would be more than me and that's not acceptable.


----------



## DenverW

When you get to 1000 you get free counseling.


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> When you get to 1000 you get free counseling.



Which is much less than the divorce attorney will cost.


----------



## Paladin79

I am comparing some 6sn7's as well as power tubes in some amps I designed, they are identical other than one has dual volume controls and dual headphone jacks. Tulip Poplar and ebony.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am comparing some 6sn7's as well as power tubes in some amps I designed, they are identical other than one has dual volume controls and dual headphone jacks. Tulip Poplar and ebony.



I get the dual volume control thing, but how can you listen to two pairs of headphones at the same time?  Or is this for people with hearing aids?  You know, kinda like people wearing glasses getting slagged with the four eyes thing...is this the aural equivalent?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I get the dual volume control thing, but how can you listen to two pairs of headphones at the same time?  Or is this for people with hearing aids?  You know, kinda like people wearing glasses getting slagged with the four eyes thing...is this the aural equivalent?


One pair of headphones, proper cables and switch boxes. And in this case with pre-amp out I can remove the headphones to hear either with powered Martin Logan speakers.

Now if quarantine ever ends, friends and I will use four amps at a time but hard telling when that will be. I suppose I could run a left channel from one amp and right channel from another but I am not sure how well that would work. With binaural tones I believe the brain hears something in between two different frequencies so I will stick to this method. I was taught to allow at least two minutes before swapping amps, it takes a short time to adjust to each sound.


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> I am comparing some 6sn7's as well as power tubes in some amps I designed, they are identical other than one has dual volume controls and dual headphone jacks. Tulip Poplar and ebony.


They look gorgeous!

 

I am pretty  sure they will sound good as they look.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> I am comparing some 6sn7's as well as power tubes in some amps I designed, they are identical other than one has dual volume controls and dual headphone jacks. Tulip Poplar and ebony.


Simple, uncluttered but beautiful design! Pease share your findings comparing tubes with these amps. Thanks.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Simple, uncluttered but beautiful design! Pease share your findings comparing tubes with these amps. Thanks.


Since @bcowen has one of the amps I believe he will concur that the RCA grey glass is extremely good in the amp. During serious listening I use a Tung Sol 5998 power tube.

The RCA has a clarity over its entire range and enough bass to make it constantly appealing. I have a fondness for Melz 1578's from 1963 and in this amp the mids are rich and glorious but lack a little in the low end at times compared to the RCA.

Black glass VT 231 Ken-Rads are close to the top as well as Tung Sol round plates and Sylvania Bad Boys. I bought a large number of Russian military grade transformers that I use in the amps and the Fotons and Melz hold their own at times, but I am more apt to use them with RCA 6as7G power tubes.

The one on the left, is going to Ripper in the near future, the other will go to a local friend as soon as I get a VU meter box built to match. So far I have received very positive reviews on the amp but they are made to let the tube sound shine through and differ a lot from modern solid state and hybrid amps.


----------



## attmci

thomaskong78 said:


> Updated list of 6sn7 that I have
> 
> 1. Six Syl vt231
> 2. quad Syl GTB made in 1955
> ...


Try these. They are very good.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124132265505


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Since @bcowen has one of the amps I believe he will concur that the RCA grey glass is extremely good in the amp. During serious listening I use a Tung Sol 5998 power tube.
> 
> The RCA has a clarity over its entire range and enough bass to make it constantly appealing. I have a fondness for Melz 1578's from 1963 and in this amp the mids are rich and glorious but lack a little in the low end at times compared to the RCA.
> 
> ...



First, I feel it necessary to point out that attempting to compare your amp to *anything* solid-state is like trying to compare a brand new Lexus to @Ripper2860 's 1975 Trabant.  

The amp sounds awesome.  I could go on and on, but it's listening time. Sorry.  

Seriously, I'm finding that every tube has a more pronounced sonic signature than in any other HP amp I've used. I find this to be really cool, as tube rolling goes to a whole 'nuther level of fun. I know one of your primary goals for the amp was to showcase the differences in 6SN7's, but the output tube gets just as much attention as the 6SN7 from what I'm hearing.  And somehow in the process you also made a fantastic sounding amp, regardless of your design intent.    The pairing of the 6SN7 and the output tube is important too.  For instance, a '53 Foton 6N8S paired with an RCA 6AS7GA or Tung Sol 6080 is quite nice.  With the Cetron 7236, the Foton loses favor. The Cetron is very much liking the Psvane CV181-T Mk II, and the gray glass RCA 6SN7 might be right there with it but I just started listening to that combo this afternoon.  It's a good thing I have lots of 6SN7's to play with, and it's a bad thing I have lots of 6SN7's to play with because I may die of old age before I get through all of them. LOL!   And surprisingly, the Frankie that I know so well and love in the Lyr 3 and Vali 2 just doesn't sing in your amp regardless of the output tube, at least so far. Not that it sounds bad, it just doesn't impress.  But there's lots of output tubes I haven't tried yet, so who knows if it will find a lovable mate in the future...


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Try these. They are very good.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/124132265505



Dang.  Somebody beat me to them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> First, I feel it necessary to point out that attempting to compare your amp to *anything* solid-state is like trying to compare a brand new Lexus to @Ripper2860 's 1975 Trabant.
> 
> The amp sounds awesome.  I could go on and on, but it's listening time. Sorry.
> 
> Seriously, I'm finding that every tube has a more pronounced sonic signature than in any other HP amp I've used. I find this to be really cool, as tube rolling goes to a whole 'nuther level of fun. I know one of your primary goals for the amp was to showcase the differences in 6SN7's, but the output tube gets just as much attention as the 6SN7 from what I'm hearing.  And somehow in the process you also made a fantastic sounding amp, regardless of your design intent.    The pairing of the 6SN7 and the output tube is important too.  For instance, a '53 Foton 6N8S paired with an RCA 6AS7GA or Tung Sol 6080 is quite nice.  With the Cetron 7236, the Foton loses favor. The Cetron is very much liking the Psvane CV181-T Mk II, and the gray glass RCA 6SN7 might be right there with it but I just started listening to that combo this afternoon.  It's a good thing I have lots of 6SN7's to play with, and it's a bad thing I have lots of 6SN7's to play with because I may die of old age before I get through all of them. LOL!   And surprisingly, the Frankie that I know so well and love in the Lyr 3 and Vali 2 just doesn't sing in your amp regardless of the output tube, at least so far. Not that it sounds bad, it just doesn't impress.  But there's lots of output tubes I haven't tried yet, so who knows if it will find a lovable mate in the future...


Is it just me or does the Cetron have higher gain than 6080’s, I am not even getting to half volume on Rippers amp and the level is quite nice! Or maybe it is the roll of aluminum foil I used for wiring in his instead of the usual high purity copper and silver?


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I am comparing some 6sn7's as well as power tubes in some amps I designed, they are identical other than one has dual volume controls and dual headphone jacks. Tulip Poplar and ebony.


Dammit. Enough with the pictures, you're giving me amp envy🤤


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Dammit. Enough with the pictures, you're giving me amp envy🤤


Drat I just ordered some honey locust that should be incredible, but as you wish lol

Soon I hope to build an amp a week, a lot of local friends want one. I have sent a couple out as loaners and even gifted one to a friend but I need to get seriously busy on them.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

thomaskong78 said:


> Updated list of 6sn7 that I have
> 
> 1. Six Syl vt231
> 2. quad Syl GTB made in 1955
> ...


Wow! I have a Woo WA22 on the way and prefer a lush sound. Would you recommend the RCA gray glass for this application? The VT-231 designation just means it was made during or around WW2 right?


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 2, 2020)

attmci said:


> Try these. They are very good.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/124132265505


You got to be kidding.

I


Relaxasaurus said:


> Wow! I have a Woo WA22 on the way and prefer a lush sound. Would you recommend the RCA gray glass for this application? The VT-231 designation just means it was made during or around WW2 right?


RCA gray bottle will sound warm and lush while Syl vt 231 sounds detailed and more transparent on the verge of analytical in some case.

I got mine from Ebay dealer.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6SN7GT-Gray-Glass-Vacuum-Tubes-TESTS-NOS-PLATINUM-MATCHED-on-AT1000/264712259099?_trkparms=aid=1110012&algo=SPLICE.SOIPOST&ao=1&asc=225074&meid=bd106731b6244bd0baf70a63550b

vt231 was made for military spec.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Is it just me or does the Cetron have higher gain than 6080’s, I am not even getting to half volume on Rippers amp and the level is quite nice! Or maybe it is the roll of aluminum foil I used for wiring in his instead of the usual high purity copper and silver?



Not just you.  Amplification factor for the 7236 is 4.8 versus 2.0 for a 6080. 

I can't believe you used genuine aluminum foil in @Ripper2860 's amp.  I'd have used a rusty coat hanger.  He must have sweet talked you, but now you're going to spoil him.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Not just you.  Amplification factor for the 7236 is 4.8 versus 2.0 for a 6080.
> 
> I can't believe you used genuine aluminum foil in @Ripper2860 's amp.  I'd have used a rusty coat hanger.  He must have sweet talked you, but now you're going to spoil him.



And he actually painted my top plate!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> And he actually painted my top plate!!



I'm pretty sure that's just a thin coating of lead.  Try not to lick it and you should be OK.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 2, 2020)

I've developed an immunity to lead over my lifetime, so no worries. 

BTW -- Your amp case was previously Finnegan's litter box.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> And he actually painted my top plate!!


Bill’s has rust but if you say patina it sounds better.

Generally you want to use ammonia or vinegar to achieve a patina but cat urine works and it is much cheaper. Eventually Bill's cats are going to "mark" that amp when they notice the other cat smell. Someone may be in for a bargain at that point.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

thomaskong78 said:


> RCA gray bottle will sound warm and lush while Syl vt 231 sounds detailed and more transparent on the verge of analytical in some case.
> 
> I got mine from Ebay dealer.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6SN7GT-Gray-Glass-Vacuum-Tubes-TESTS-NOS-PLATINUM-MATCHED-on-AT1000/264712259099?_trkparms=aid=1110012&algo=SPLICE.SOIPOST&ao=1&asc=225074&meid=bd106731b6244bd0baf70a63550b


Thank you, just ordered


----------



## Roasty

I just ordered a pair of Ken Rad black glass vt-231with staggered copper posts. Anyone have comments on this?


----------



## Ripper2860

You won't be sorry you did.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2020)

I will have to check my versions of that tube, there is one I liked better than others. As I recall I had to go by tube lettering but it has been more than a year since I messed around with them. My favorite had JAN on it and this shows the other side.

It always finished well in the blind tube challenges I conducted and will be among the 52 best of the best tube challenge I will do one day.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 3, 2020)

I am going through 6sn7 tubes in Line Magnetic 508 to drive Lansche 4.1 with plasma tweeter which give most details even among Totl speakers.

The source is CD's stored in SSD of Cocktail audio X30 and Dac is Dave and HMS.


So far "Bad boy" gave the best overall balanced sound .

Tungsol GTB made in 1955 also give pleasant sound (steal at 60$ paid at Ebay).

RCA gray bottle give warm and lush sound.

Red brown base Syl 6nswgt give fresh sound with good details maybe slightly less refined than  Bad boy.

CBS/Hytron give somewhat lively sound with slightly less bass.


Now the question is whether I will try out super expensive Tungsol Black Grass round plate vt231 or not.

One in good condition cost around 600$ or more.

Had anybody compared Bad boy and TBgrp in your system?


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> I am going through 6sn7 tubes in Line Magnetic 508 to drive Lansche 4.1 with plasma tweeter which give most details even among Totl speakers.
> 
> The source is CD's stored in SSD of Cocktail audio X30 and Dac is Dave and HMS.
> 
> ...


I have but see the bad boy is farther down my list of favorites so between those two the Tung Sol is a far superior tube IMHO. An accurate sound, great mids and good bass. It becomes a little tricky because I have many amps and tailor them to my sound preferences. Now I could put 6sn7's in a Freya and run it through a Cary power amp but I really have a hard time differentiating between tubes in that setup.


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> I have but see the bad boy is farther down my list of favorites so between those two the Tung Sol is a far superior tube IMHO. An accurate sound, great mids and good bass. It becomes a little tricky because I have many amps and tailor them to my sound preferences. Now I could put 6sn7's in a Freya and run it through a Cary power amp but I really have a hard time differentiating between tubes in that setup.


Surprisingly Tungsol GTB that I paid 60$ at Ebay give almost 85% performance of Bad Boy which cost me 200$.

Since my system is very revealing on the analytical side, somewhat warm Bad boy seems to work well in my system.

I am afraid that TBGRP vt231 may sounds too analytical in my system as well as Syl vt231.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> Surprisingly Tungsol GTB that I paid 60$ at Ebay give almost 85% performance of Bad Boy which cost me 200$.
> 
> Since my system is very revealing on the analytical side, somewhat warm Bad boy seems to work well in my system.
> 
> I am afraid that TBGRP vt231 may sounds too analytical in my system as well as Syl vt231.


Some prices are customer driven and Bad Boys are probably one of the most well known tubes but in blind listening, I have had no one put them very close to the top. I can tell more on headphone amps than speaker systems, but I own both of course. Right now I limit myself to Class A amps that I design and build but I am fortunate to get to hear most high end products made because of my local audio group.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> Surprisingly Tungsol GTB that I paid 60$ at Ebay give almost 85% performance of Bad Boy which cost me 200$.
> 
> Since my system is very revealing on the analytical side, somewhat warm Bad boy seems to work well in my system.
> 
> I am afraid that TBGRP vt231 may sounds too analytical in my system as well as Syl vt231.



Are the CBS/Hytrons you mentioned earlier 6SN7's or 5692's?  I have some Hytron 6SN7's (but not CBS dual labeled) that are decent, but not in my personal upper echelon. Same with some CBS 6SN7's (but not Hytron dual labeled).  The CBS/Hytron 5692 however is different and an awesome tube. Doesn't light me up in the Lyr, but it was my favorite tube in a number of pieces of Cary gear in the past. Warm balanced, not the tightest bass but very full and punchy, glorious midrange, and a 'friendly' treble that didn't ever pierce or fatigue. Haven't looked at prices on those in a while though...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Are the CBS/Hytrons you mentioned earlier 6SN7's or 5692's?  I have some Hytron 6SN7's (but not CBS dual labeled) that are decent, but not in my personal upper echelon. Same with some CBS 6SN7's (but not Hytron dual labeled).  The CBS/Hytron 5692 however is different and an awesome tube. Doesn't light me up in the Lyr, but it was my favorite tube in a number of pieces of Cary gear in the past. Warm balanced, not the tightest bass but very full and punchy, glorious midrange, and a 'friendly' treble that didn't ever pierce or fatigue. Haven't looked at prices on those in a while though...


The 5692 was included in a couple blind tests after yours, I like them in the Freya.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Dang.  Somebody beat me to them.




Hmmmmm.

These are more expensive.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/163709663277


----------



## whirlwind

attmci said:


> Hmmmmm.
> 
> These are more expensive.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/163709663277




The B36 is an option if your amp can use 12 volt tubes and much cheaper than B65


----------



## ken6217

Can I use denatured alcohol for cleaning the pins? I had read that you shouldn’t use rubbing alcohol because of the oils in it. Thanks.


----------



## bcowen

ken6217 said:


> Can I use denatured alcohol for cleaning the pins? I had read that you shouldn’t use rubbing alcohol because of the oils in it. Thanks.



Yes, assuming it's denatured _*isopropyl*_ alcohol.  And correct on avoiding rubbing alcohol. That has skin conditioners like Lanolin in it. Great for the skin, but likely to leave a residue on your pins which is exactly what you're trying to get rid of by cleaning them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yes, assuming it's denatured _*isopropyl*_ alcohol.  And correct on avoiding rubbing alcohol. That has skin conditioners like Lanolin in it. Great for the skin, but likely to leave a residue on your pins which is exactly what you're trying to get rid of by cleaning them.


I always turn to Bill with my alcohol related questions, the man is a wealth of information.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I always turn to Bill with my alcohol related questions, the man is a wealth of information.



At first I thought that was a compliment.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 4, 2020)

ken6217 said:


> Can I use denatured alcohol for cleaning the pins? I had read that you shouldn’t use rubbing alcohol because of the oils in it. Thanks.


https://www.analogueseduction.net/contact-treatment/kontak-audio-contact-cleaning-fluid.html

I had been using above cleaner for any electric contact like IC, Speaker cable or tube pins.

It really improve the sound making it cleaner and transparent without leaving any residue.

It takes around 10 days to receive the item from England.

I ordered two more this January.


----------



## barbz127

On the topic of cleaning, whats the best way to clean the glass? I have a set of RCA's that have arrived with some gunk near the base of the glass.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> https://www.analogueseduction.net/contact-treatment/kontak-audio-contact-cleaning-fluid.html
> 
> I had been using above cleaner for any contact like IC, Speaker cable or tube pins.
> 
> ...



I really like Kontak. It's just very expensive, although the site you linked has a much better price on it than Music Direct which is where I purchased it last time. Thanks for sharing that!


----------



## bcowen

barbz127 said:


> On the topic of cleaning, whats the best way to clean the glass? I have a set of RCA's that have arrived with some gunk near the base of the glass.



Very carefully.   Just about any liquid (even plain water) can remove the silkscreened print from a lot of tubes. Depends on the manufacturer and when it was made. If you can get to the gunk without having to get into the printed area, then you should be OK. Personally, I'd dip a cotton swab (Q-Tip) in some isopropyl alcohol and rub away at the gunk that way. If that gets the main gunk off, then follow with some regular glass cleaner (sprayed on a Q-Tip) to get the glass nice and clear, but stay away from any printed area with that as well.


----------



## ken6217

Thanks a lot.

This is what I happen to have in my garage, but don't want to use it before asking here. Is this any good?

https://www.amazon.com/Klean-Strip-QKGA75003-Denatured-Alcohol-1-Quart/dp/B001FOSX9U


----------



## bcowen

ken6217 said:


> Thanks a lot.
> 
> This is what I happen to have in my garage, but don't want to use it before asking here. Is this any good?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Klean-Strip-QKGA75003-Denatured-Alcohol-1-Quart/dp/B001FOSX9U



That's a wood alcohol, probably denatured with methanol.  May work fine, although I've never used it. I know isopropyl is hard to find right now, but as far as alcohol that's all I can recommend from personal experience. The Kontak mentioned earlier works great as does Caig DeOxit but both are more expensive.


----------



## ken6217

Thanks. Actually, I just realized I have some DeOxit. I know they make a lot of different products. Is this the one to use? Also, do you need to wipe off all excess so the the pins are totally free of the DeOxit?


----------



## bcowen

ken6217 said:


> Thanks. Actually, I just realized I have some DeOxit. I know they make a lot of different products. Is this the one to use? Also, do you need to wipe off all excess so the the pins are totally free of the DeOxit?



That should work just fine. Best to apply it liberally, let it sit on the pins for a few minutes to dissolve the crud, and then wipe it off thoroughly. There may still be a slight amount of residue and that's OK, I'd just wipe as much off as you can.


----------



## ken6217

bcowen said:


> That should work just fine. Best to apply it liberally, let it sit on the pins for a few minutes to dissolve the crud, and then wipe it off thoroughly. There may still be a slight amount of residue and that's OK, I'd just wipe as much off as you can.



Thanks so much.


----------



## thomaskong78

RCA vt231 is the best 6sn7 so far in my 2 channel system with round timber, fast dynamics but not harsh transient and wide soundstage.

I ordered two more pairs of RCA vt 231 as reserve or for use with Freya in my headphone system.


Now the only remaining choice is Tungsol BGRP vt231.

But it is damn expensive compared with other ones.


----------



## ken6217

thomaskong78 said:


> RCA vt231 is the best 6sn7 so far in my 2 channel system with round timber, fast dynamics but not harsh transient and wide soundstage.
> 
> I ordered two more pairs of RCA vt 231 as reserve or for use with Freya in my headphone system.
> 
> ...



That TS is my favorite. It’s really sick what happened to the pricing on this. A few years ago you can get a good match pair for $275, and that was expensive then. Now it’s like double that.


----------



## thomaskong78

After going through lot of thread, I pulled the trigger for TS BGRP at high price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




but at lower price than Psavne Acme 300B or 805.

The Reference 6SN7 Thread

I hope it is going to be the last 6sn7 tube that I purchase.

Now I have around 20 pairs of Nos 6sn7 tubes which I will use for Line Magnetic 508 and Schitt Freya pre which use quad 6sn7.

Schitt Freya is also nice preamp in my headphone setup.

Sylvania vt231 in gain stage and RCA gray bottle in buffer stage give ideal combination of details speed and wide and deep soundstage but without hot edges.

Freya in the chain make sound out of 009s, sr1a and hd800s more refined and musical.

I still have to test Kenrad vt231, MELZ 6N8S 6SN7 and TS BGRP in my system.

With 20 pairs of Nos 6sn7 tubes, I may need to sell some of them in the future.


----------



## Ripper2860

thomaskong78 said:


> ...I hope it is going to be the last 6sn7 tube that I purchase. ...



You're a funny, funny man!


----------



## ken6217

Actually I had to decide this month if I wanted to buy another pair of TSRP, or pay my mortgage.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 8, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> You're a funny, funny man!



You may be right.

I had pulled the trigger for Raytheon vt 231 about 20 minutes ago.


I had been trying Kenrad vt231 which has a reputation of great bass for last 3 hours.

It seems to me that both "Bad boy" and "Kenrad" have excellent bass  while Syl vt231 has tighter but less bass.

Surprising thing is that Kenrad vt 231 give very sweet tone  with good transparency.
It could be end game 6sn7 for some people.

There is no best thing in audio

It depends on personal taste and system.


Thus Bad boy" and "Kenrad sounds similar to each other while Kenrad is more transparent than Bad boy.

But it is possible to get Kenrad vt231 around 100$.


TS bgrp appears to be similar to Syl vt231.

I am not so sure whether I will like it in my system. It may sounds slightly hot like Syl vt231.

Just out of curiosity I also had pulled the trigger for Raytheon vt231 at 100$ to go through all the tubes with good reputation.

It is like tasting wines with different flavor


----------



## ken6217 (May 8, 2020)

Out of curiosity, has anyone had a pair go TSRP that sounded off? I recently got a new amp and decided to buy another pair which tested strong, but just sounds flat. I chalked it up to the amp not being broken in yet. They tested at 102/94 and 98/96.

I decided to put in the pair that I always use, and man what a difference. The amp sounds like it should.

Anyone else have had this happen in their system?


----------



## Jon L

thomaskong78 said:


> After going through lot of thread, I pulled the trigger for TS BGRP at high price



This is funny because that's exactly how I ended up buying TS roundplates.  After spending $$$ on dozens of 6SN7's for rolling fun, I just couldn't NOT buy the TSRP to try for myself.  Just goes to show that in this hobby, sometimes one just has to hear for himself...


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 8, 2020)

ken6217 said:


> Out of curiosity, has anyone had a pair go TSRP that sounded off? I recently got a new amp and decided to buy another pair which tested strong, but just sounds flat. I chalked it up to the amp not being broken in yet. They tested at 102/94 and 98/96.
> 
> I decided to put in the pair that I always use, and man what a difference. The amp sounds like it should.
> 
> Anyone else have had this happen in their system?


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-20#post-10899742

Someone mentioned that TSRP need extended burn in to sound right.


----------



## thomaskong78

Jon L said:


> This is funny because that's exactly how I ended up buying TS roundplates.  After spending $$$ on dozens of 6SN7's for rolling fun, I just couldn't NOT buy the TSRP to try for myself.  Just goes to show that in this hobby, sometimes one just has to hear for himself...


I fully understand your statement.

What was your impression of TSrp.


----------



## ken6217

thomaskong78 said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-20#post-10899742
> 
> Someone mentioned that TSRP need extended burn in to sound right.



I believe thats true, however since these tubes are around 75 years old, and have been used, I got to believe that that, and the additional 60 hours that I put on him is enough to show how they sound.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> After going through lot of thread, I pulled the trigger for TS BGRP at high price
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, I'm officially jealous.    Please do tell us what you think of it once you get it.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> Just out of curiosity I also had pulled the trigger for Raytheon vt231 at 100$ to go through all the tubes with good reputation.



Flat plates or T-plates?


----------



## thomaskong78

bcowen said:


> Flat plates or T-plates?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Of-Vi...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

You can judge from the photo.

I am not good at it.


----------



## bcowen

ken6217 said:


> I believe thats true, however since these tubes are around 75 years old, and have been used, I got to believe that that, and the additional 60 hours that I put on him is enough to show how they sound.



It's possible the pin soldering needs redone. I thought that issue was related specifically to Fotons (and possibly Melz of the same era), but I just had a Tung Sol 7236 that even though it tested nicely had a bad hum and some sputtering in the left channel. Resoldered the pins and that fixed it.  Not sure if that will be any help to yours, but might be worth a try as expensive as those are.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Of-Vintage-Raytheon-Jan-CRP-6sn7gt-VT-231-Vacuum-Tubes-Very-Strong/333531816135?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> You can judge from the photo.
> 
> I am not good at it.



T-plates.  Excellent.  Really nice tubes!  I can't stand the flat plate version, but maybe that's just me.


----------



## ken6217

bcowen said:


> It's possible the pin soldering needs redone. I thought that issue was related specifically to Fotons (and possibly Melz of the same era), but I just had a Tung Sol 7236 that even though it tested nicely had a bad hum and some sputtering in the left channel. Resoldered the pins and that fixed it.  Not sure if that will be any help to yours, but might be worth a try as expensive as those are.



Actually I took a shot and told the guy that I want to return them and he said ok.  Whew.


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> That is a decent list.
> Which two Melz do you have coming in May? If the 1578 style I have found the year to be important, and many need pin re-soldering.
> 
> I own everything you list except for the Amperex and 12sn7's, I bought most 6sn7's of the various brands I could find as part of different tube challenges including those built for other brand names. I also purchased black and grey glass versions of most all tube types. I have had a few Freya's as well as a half dozen other amps that use 6sn7's and since I have 30 amps to build I still have plenty of 6sn7 listening to do. I build my own socket savers as well as some tube adapters, when time allows.
> I have also listened to many different single triode tubes like 7A4's and 6J5's.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-MELZ-6...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I am still waiting for this one.


----------



## bcowen

ken6217 said:


> Actually I took a shot and told the guy that I want to return them and he said ok.  Whew.



Better yet.  Good deal.


----------



## Jon L

thomaskong78 said:


> What was your impression of TSrp.



Let's just say I ended up using Sylvania Metal Base 6SN7W, another grossly hyped, expensive tube.


----------



## thomaskong78

Jon L said:


> Let's just say I ended up using Sylvania Metal Base 6SN7W, another grossly hyped, expensive tube.


How the latter sound?


----------



## Relaxasaurus

6NS7 vs 12au7. Just got my gray glass delivered and can't wait to take them for a spin.


----------



## ken6217

Relaxasaurus said:


> 6NS7 vs 12au7. Just got my gray glass delivered and can't wait to take them for a spin.



Nice. I have a Cayin HA-300.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

ken6217 said:


> Nice. I have a Cayin HA-300.


Awesome! I've been trying to get my hands on an HA-300 loaner for a comparo but it being 75lbs and all poses a bit of a problem


----------



## ken6217

Relaxasaurus said:


> Awesome! I've been trying to get my hands on an HA-300 loaner for a comparo but it being 75lbs and all poses a bit of a problem



I haven't had a tube amp in a few years before this. I see you also have a V280. I have a V281 but haven't listened to it since last year. After I got my Abyss 1266 TC, I got a SimAudio 600i V2 speaker amp and a 4 pin XLR to banana plug speaker adapter. I wanted to try a 300B amp with the Abyss to see how it is.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

ken6217 said:


> I haven't had a tube amp in a few years before this. I see you also have a V280. I have a V281 but haven't listened to it since last year. After I got my Abyss 1266 TC, I got a SimAudio 600i V2 speaker amp and a 4 pin XLR to banana plug speaker adapter. I wanted to try a 300B amp with the Abyss to see how it is.


What are your thoughts so far? What driver tubes does it use?


----------



## ken6217

Relaxasaurus said:


> What are your thoughts so far? What driver tubes does it use?



Not enough hours on it to form an accurate opinion. Two 6SN7 driver tubes.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 9, 2020)

I had been back and forth between Rca vt231 and Kenrad vt231.

Rca give more spark and air.

Eva Cassidy's voice is more exciting through Rca.

KR give more sweet and laid back sound,

KR has a good reputation of bass but compared with RCA just tad a bit more fullness.

RCA appears to have slightly wider soundstage than KR.

So far, my conclusion is that they sound different but I can not say which is better.

It will depend on personal taste, system and genre of music.


So far I had paid between 50-170$ per pairs of Nos 6sn7 tubes including RCA and KR.


But pair of Tungsol BGRP cost me 575$ including shipping.

I expect to get TSbgrp on Tuesday.

But I am not sure whether I will like it in my system.

Sylvania vt 231 sounds a little bit hot in my system and TS may sound similar to Syl.


I will have my finger crossed.


----------



## ken6217

thomaskong78 said:


> I had been back and forth between Rca vt231 and Kenrad vt231.
> 
> Rca give more spark and air.
> 
> ...



As long as the tubes are strong, you’ll like it.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 10, 2020)

Now I am going back and forth between Rca vt 231 and "Bad boy".

Bad boy is all around good player in sweet treble, full bass nice tonality.

But Rca vt231 has more spark and air than Bad boy while matching other respects.

I will have shootout between TS BGRP, RCA vt231, KR vt231, Syl vt231, Raytheon vt 231 and "Bad boy" next weekend.

If I get MELZ 6N8S 6SN7 Metal Base next week, then I will also include it in shootout


RCA5691, Psavne Acme 300B, Psavne Acme 805 are also being used in Line Magnetic 508 amplifier.

Speaker will be Lansche 4.1 with plasma tweeter.

Digital source will be Dave and HMS fed by ripped CD stored in ssd drive of Cocktail audio x30.

I will play

Eva Cassidy's 'Autumn Leaves"

"Trinity Sessionn " by Cowboy Junkies

For classical orchestra, "Trittico" directed by Fennel.

"Still harry after all these years" will be for fusion jazz.


----------



## Thenewguy007

thomaskong78 said:


> But pair of Tungsol BGRP cost me 575$ including shipping.



NOS tested pairs sell for half of that on eBay. If the tubes you get have any hum or noise, initiate a return of those tubes immediately.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 10, 2020)

Thenewguy007 said:


> NOS tested pairs sell for half of that on eBay. If the tubes you get have any hum or noise, initiate a return of those tubes immediately.


The lowest  price that I found on Ebay for TS bgrp pair is 450$.



If I have problem of noise and hum, I will return it.

I had ordered it from refutable dealer.

Thus it is more likely that it will sounds fine.

The question is whether it is worth 4 times as other nice vt231s.


----------



## ken6217

Thenewguy007 said:


> NOS tested pairs sell for half of that on eBay. If the tubes you get have any hum or noise, initiate a return of those tubes immediately.



Well if you find it, post the link here. Unfortunately $500+ for a good matched pair is the going price. $275 is a price from a couple of years ago.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 10, 2020)

I am back to Syl vt231 from Bad boy playing "Trinity Sessionn " by Cowboy Junkies .

It is much more transparent with deeper stage and nuanced and spooky details.

That is why I had used it in Line Magnetic 508 amp for two years.

The only downside of it is that its bass sound too controlled (not bad but it would be nice if it sounds full as  Kenrad or Bad boy).

I guess TS bgrp will sound similar to Syl vt231.

Let us see whether TS is worth 4 times of cost of RCA , Syl or KR.


----------



## ken6217

thomaskong78 said:


> I am back to Syl vt231 from Bad boy playing "Trinity Sessionn " by Cowboy Junkies .
> 
> It is much more transparent with deeper stage and nuanced and spooky details.
> 
> ...



I think the TSRP has more weight to it than the Sylvania.


----------



## Jon L

thomaskong78 said:


> I guess TS bgrp will sound similar to Syl vt231.



Not really.  

IME, this is the problem with 6SN7 rolling.  I have not found a 6SN7/VT231 that does everything right and check all the boxes, even the venerable TS BGRP or Sylvania metal base.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 11, 2020)

Jon L said:


> Not really.
> 
> IME, this is the problem with 6SN7 rolling.  I have not found a 6SN7/VT231 that does everything right and check all the boxes, even the venerable TS BGRP or Sylvania metal base.


As I am going through several tubes this afternoon, I found so called "Bad boy" got over hyped.

It is veiled and closed in (not enough treble extension) compared with Syl vt 231 which goes around 125-150$.

Bad boy is not worth more than 125$ but being sold at 200$ or more.


I am getting the feeling that  TS BGRP or Sylvania metal base may get over hyped


----------



## Gazny

thomaskong78 said:


> As I am going through several tubes this afternoon, I found so called "Bad boy" got over hyped.
> 
> It is veiled and close in (not enough treble extension) compared with Syl vt 231 which goes around 125-150$.
> 
> ...


What is a great value tube in your opinion?


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 10, 2020)

Gazny said:


> What is a great value tube in your opinion?


Rca vt 231 if you can get it under 150$.

It has a good balance of nice air and sparkle and decent bass just short of Kenrad.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-RCA-VT...641386?hash=item4205b5ca2a:g:61EAAOSwlPhdPnMt

This one could be nice buy if this dealer is honest.

By the way, i already  got three pairs of Rca vt231 which may outlast me.


----------



## ken6217 (May 10, 2020)

Gazny said:


> What is a great value tube in your opinion?



Not really any different than ones opinion components. What one person likes, another person doesn’t. A lot of people love Utopia and Chord products. I don’t. Doesn’t make it right or wrong. Just a different opinion.

But getting back to tubes, I think it also depends on what type of music you listen to and how do you like to listen to music will determine what tube you like.

For instance with 300B tubes, Tatatsuki tubes are every well regarded. I like classic rock music, but for me those tubes are not good for that genre. Too polite sounding.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 10, 2020)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Red-Brown-Base-Sylvania-6SN7WGT-6SN7-All-3-hole-plates-Strong-Trio/264683854969?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

This is the best value to performance at 3 tubes at 60$.

Sometimes you can find a bargain at Ebay, but it could be hit or miss.

I am listening to "Vision of Love" by Maria Carey using this pair of tube.

It has extended treble and tight and slightly fuller bass than  Syl vt231 while it falls slightly short of clean treble compared with Syl vt231, but not that bad.

I like this tube better than "Bad boy".


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 10, 2020)

http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/6sn7_vt.htm
6SN7WGT, Tung-Sol. Black Plate, brown base – Sounds similar to the Tung-Sol VT-231, not as clean

Although it is labelled as Sylvania, it may be same as brown base 6sn7wgt Tungsol.

But its price is 1/12 of TS vt231.

I will find out how much difference there are between these tubes on Tuesday.


----------



## Jon L

ken6217 said:


> I think it also depends on what type of music you listen to and how do you like to listen to music will determine what tube you like.
> 
> For instance with 300B tubes, Tatatsuki tubes are every well regarded. I like classic rock music, but for me those tubes are not good for that genre. Too polite sounding.



I've got some Takatsuki 300B tubes.  Instead of "polite," many would call them "refined" and balanced, etc.  I kind of like the cheaper Gold Lion PX300B for rock, hip-hop, pop, etc.  Which 300B do you like for classic rock?


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 10, 2020)

Jon L said:


> I've got some Takatsuki 300B tubes.  Instead of "polite," many would call them "refined" and balanced, etc.  I kind of like the cheaper Gold Lion PX300B for rock, hip-hop, pop, etc.  Which 300B do you like for classic rock?


I have WE 300B made in 1940's.

It sound refined but very fast  and with  tight bass,  wide and deep soundstage.

It rocks but now it cost too much like TS bgrp, actually much more 10k$ for decent pair.


----------



## ken6217

Jon L said:


> I've got some Takatsuki 300B tubes.  Instead of "polite," many would call them "refined" and balanced, etc.  I kind of like the cheaper Gold Lion PX300B for rock, hip-hop, pop, etc.  Which 300B do you like for classic rock?



Polite and refined is the same thing to me. 

I’ve been using KR Audio, and I like them.
I heard JJ 300B tubes are supposed to be good with rock. Punchy and dynamic but a little soft up top, but not the most refined tube in the world


----------



## Jon L

Speaking of KR, I used to run AVVT AV32B SL (300B spec).  Now THAT was a stout-sounding tube!


----------



## scottcw

Maybe y'all could start a 300B thread.


----------



## ken6217

scottcw said:


> Maybe y'all could start a 300B thread.



Relax, bro. There’s not a thread on this forum which doesn’t go off the narrow topic of the thread for a few posts. My suggestion is to read over the posts that you don’t find applicable.


----------



## jambaj0e

So yesterday night, I had a panic! My Cayin HA-300 has had some intermittent crackling and electric pulse about every 3-4 days. All of a sudden yesterday night, though, it went to a very loud crackling, and even when I turned off the DAC, it went on. I shut it off, took all audio cables off, and it was still doing it. I swapped out the Psvane ACME 300b tubes with the stock TJ Full Music 300b, and it lowered the crackling, but it was still there.

Then I swapped out the old stock 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boys with the new stock Psvane CV181-T mkII and that did the trick. Dead silent once again.

This morning, though, I put the Sylvanias back in, but swapped channels around. Surprisingly, dead silent again. I'm hoping that instead of the right Sylvania tube reaching end of life, it was somehow because I didn't seat the tube properly back in when I did do a quick swap & listen between the Sylvania and CV181 that I did 2 weeks ago.

Here's the "offending Psylvania tube." Do you see anything physically wrong with it?


----------



## jambaj0e

Here's the matching pair that I had, to compare:


----------



## ken6217

I don’t know, but I wouldn’t keep playing around with it. As I mentioned a few days ago, I just purchased this amp. I used to have another one about a year and a half ago as well, but I sold it. I had some issues similar to yours, and brought it to an authorized service place. The guy started yelling at me when I picked it up after it was fixed. He told me to stop swapping tubes so much that the sockets became loose.


----------



## jambaj0e

ken6217 said:


> I don’t know, but I wouldn’t keep playing around with it. As I mentioned a few days ago, I just purchased this amp. I used to have another one about a year and a half ago as well, but I sold it. I had some issues similar to yours, and brought it to an authorized service place. The guy started yelling at me when I picked it up after it was fixed. He told me to stop swapping tubes so much that the sockets became loose.



Well, looks like the same Sylvania tube started making low crackling noise again, so I turned it off, waited for a good 10 minutes and went back to the new stock Psvane CV181-T mkII. I think it was the tube since I swapped channels with the Sylvania and the crackling now occured in the left channel.

Socket-wise, thankfully it's still tight, but I don't think I'll be changing tubes for a while now.


----------



## ken6217

It was crazy. The guy starts yelling at me. I yelled back at him. I said What are you talking about? That’s the whole deal of owning a tube amp. Roll tubes!!


----------



## jambaj0e

ken6217 said:


> It was crazy. The guy starts yelling at me. I yelled back at him. I said What are you talking about? That’s the whole deal of owning a tube amp. Roll tubes!!



How often were you rolling tubes? I have to say now I understand the risk inherent with buying and using vintage tubes. As lovely the sound can be, it can also be a ticking timebomb =\


----------



## ken6217

Back then, I was trying a few different tubes, but nothing crazy. I recall the sockets for the 300B’s were always loose


----------



## jambaj0e

ken6217 said:


> Back then, I was trying a few different tubes, but nothing crazy. I recall the sockets for the 300B’s were always loose



yes, the 300b you have to really push in and hear the "click". Even then there is a slight play on them, too. That's also why I keep the cage over the tubes so there's no accidental bump by anyone


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 11, 2020)

ㅓ응


ken6217 said:


> It was crazy. The guy starts yelling at me. I yelled back at him. I said What are you talking about? That’s the whole deal of owning a tube amp. Roll tubes!!


Use socket saver if you do lot of tube rolling!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CED-P-ST8-1000-VACUUM-TUBE-8-PIN-OCTAL-SOCKET-SAVER-for-6L6-6V6-6SN7-EL34/150688246271?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## bcowen

jambaj0e said:


> Well, looks like the same Sylvania tube started making low crackling noise again, so I turned it off, waited for a good 10 minutes and went back to the new stock Psvane CV181-T mkII. I think it was the tube since I swapped channels with the Sylvania and the crackling now occured in the left channel.
> 
> Socket-wise, thankfully it's still tight, but I don't think I'll be changing tubes for a while now.



If the socket is tight, contacts are clean, and the crackling follows the tube, there's a good chance that the pin solder is the problem in that Sylvania. Do you have a soldering iron?


----------



## ken6217

thomaskong78 said:


> ㅓ응
> 
> Use socket saver if you do lot of tube rolling!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CED-P-ST8-1000-VACUUM-TUBE-8-PIN-OCTAL-SOCKET-SAVER-for-6L6-6V6-6SN7-EL34/150688246271?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



Thanks. I had thought of those but I always wondered if it affects the transparency at all. My experience with interconnect adapters they do.


----------



## ken6217

Has anyone compared the sound of a Brimar CV1988 6SN7GT brown base to the TSRP? That's another expensive tube if you can find it.


----------



## jambaj0e

bcowen said:


> If the socket is tight, contacts are clean, and the crackling follows the tube, there's a good chance that the pin solder is the problem in that Sylvania. Do you have a soldering iron?



I don't have a soldering iron, and although I did hear a strange shuffling noise from the CV181-T after my first listening session with it that got me worried, it hasn't made any electrical noise since then. I'm hoping that the problem is limited to those '52 Sylvania Bad Boys, which I will really, really miss, because they sound so good on my system, much better than the CV-181T mkII.

So I guess I can either get the same tubes, or try a whole different type. What's comparable with the Bad Boys in terms of bass extension, imaging, sweet vocals, and air?


----------



## Roasty

Received my Ken Rad black glass vt 231 today, but one of the tubes is bad. On turning on the amp, loud hum followed by super loud machine gun ratatat static. Crazy loud. Hope it has not messed up my Utopia driver...

Have contact the ebay seller and they will send me another tube. Oh well..


----------



## thomaskong78

I received Tungsol Black grass round plate and Raytheon Vt231 tubes yesterday.



I had done shootout between TS BGRP, RCA vt231, KR vt231, Syl vt231, Raytheon vt 231 and Bad boy



I had played same tracks for 6 tubes.



Eva Cassidy’s ’Autumn Leaves"



"Post card blues " by Cowboy Junkies



For classical orchestra, "Trittico" directed by Fennel.



"Still harry after all these years" will be for fusion jazz



1. TS BGRP gave most transparent almost see through sound. But it’s tonal balance is slightly skewed to treble, so it could sound hot in bright system.



It sound fast but the bass falls way short of the standard set by KR vt231 even behind Rca or Raytheon.



Some people are of the opinion that this one is holy grail of 6sn7 tubes doing everything well .



But it’s bass is disappointing.



2. RCA vt231 is kind of all around player. Compared with TS bgrp, its sound is slightly warmer with lush tone but with enough sparkle and air.



It is also very transparent just short of TS.



Its bass is also better than TS.



I paid only 1/5 price of TS on RCA vt231.



But RCA is as almost as good as TS.



Thus TS bgrp is over priced due to hype and RCA is a good deal.



if you can find Nos RCA vt 231 under 1505, grab it.



I had bought 3 pairs of RCA vt 231 with average price of 130$.



3. Kenrad vt231 has best bass among 6sn7 tubes.



With KR in it, I got the impression that I do not need subwoofer to get deep bass.



It also sound sweet. Thus its tonal balance is kind of neutral.



It is pretty transparent just short of TS.



4. Raytheon vt 231.



I could grab one RT vt231 at 80$.



But it was steal for the performance.



Its sound is halfway between RCA and KR.



it give better bass than TS and pretty good speed with transparency close to TS.



I ordered one more RT vt231 at 70$ today.





5. Sylvania vt 231



Its sound is very similar to TS.



It has spooky details and transparency very close to TS.



But it’s bass is too tight but not with enough force.



I also have three pairs of Syl vt 231 at average price of 110$ for pair.



This one work better in Freya pre in front of headphone amplifiers rather than 2 channel system.





6. Bad boy ( Sylvania GT 3 holes made in 1952 or 1953)



This one has good tonal balance (slightly bass heavy) which will work well with bright system.



But it falls short of above vt231 tubes in tranparency with limited treble extension.



Its bass is full but not at the same level as KR but close to RCA or RT.





To conclude, this one is not at the same level as five vt231 tubes in detail and transparency.



It is overpriced due to hype.



But if your system is on the bright side, bad boy may work.



I think it is foolish to pay more than 150$ on it.


----------



## ken6217 (May 12, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> I received Tungsol Black grass round plate and Raytheon Vt231 tubes yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’ve found it differently than you in my system previously. It’s not just the tube that plays the part, it’s the amp as well. In addition, the rest of the system plays a part. 

The best one is the one that sounds the best in your amp (your circuit) and your system, to you. There is no best tube, in general, considering these criterium, as each tube will perform differently under these different conditions and also according to your own personal taste

For me, I found the bass much better on the TS, as well as the overall tonality in my system. This tube is renowned for a reason. It’s just not your cup of tea.

Btw, I hope your letting the tubes settle for at least a few hours or a day in the amp before critically listening, even if the tubes are used.

All opinions are subjective, mine and yours. You are coming off as the self proclaimed authority on tubes when you finish off my saying that is is foolish for paying more than $150.

The market dictates the price of something, not the individual seller. If something is selling for a crazy high price, there’s a reason for it. It’s the demand. And the reason the demand is there is because people like how that particular item sounds.


----------



## DenverW

A socket saver should have no audible effect on sound quality.  I would recommend one if you're rolling tubes often.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 12, 2020)

ken6217 said:


> I’ve found it differently than you in my system previously. It’s not just the tube that plays the part, it’s the amp as well. In addition, the rest of the system plays apart, as well as how you like to hear music. For example, one person could say the treble is sweet and extended, and someone could listen and say it sounds bright to me.
> 
> I found the bass much better on the TS, as well as the overall tonality in my system. This tube is renowned for a reason. It’s just not your cup of tea.
> 
> ...


I think TS bgrp is the best 6sn7 tube with see through transparency but it is over priced overall.

I have much more revealing system than you reaching full 20hz.

http://stereotimes.com/speak112410.shtml

Thus I am in a better position to judge its bass.

KR 10, RCA and RT 9,  TS 8.5 which is not bad compared with other 6sn7 tubes.

Some  6sn7 tubes are over priced through hype done by some tube sellers.

I was blown away by the performance of Raytheon vt231 which I paid 80$.

It is 90% as good as TS bgrp.


----------



## ken6217 (May 12, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> I think TS bgrp is the best 6sn7 tube but it is over priced.
> 
> Some price of 6sn7 tube is over priced through hype done by some tube seller.



It’s not A tube seller. It’s tube seller(s). If only one dealer charged that price, and no one else did, they wouldn’t be able to sell it.

If only one dealer charges that price, and no one else did, he wouldn’t be able to sell the tube.
Depends on what the definition of overpriced is. If someone likes it enough, they’ll pay for it. That’s the reason the price is so expensive. Its not overpriced, because that’s what the market is. If it was worth $100, and somebody charges $500, that’s called overpriced. The correct terminology in this case would be that it’s expensive, not overpriced.

A 911 Turbo is not overpriced. It’s expensive.

I do agree the price of the TSRP is crazy high. You can probably thank the Head Fi community for that for help pushing up the price. About 3 years ago, I remember pairs going for $250 maximum.


----------



## scottcw

thomaskong78 said:


> I have much more revealing system than you reaching full 20hz.
> 
> http://stereotimes.com/speak112410.shtml
> 
> Thus I am in a better position to judge its bass.



Full of yourself much?


----------



## scottcw

thomaskong78 said:


> I received Tungsol Black grass round plate and Raytheon Vt231 tubes yesterday.



Maybe you could start a whole new 6SN7 thread as well.


----------



## ken6217

scottcw said:


> Maybe you could start a whole new 6SN7 thread as well.



Great idea..... it can be called The Obnoxious, Self Absorbed, And Blind Authoritative List of 6SN7 Tubes According To ME.


----------



## Ripper2860

thomaskong78 said:


> I have much more revealing system than you reaching full 20hz.
> 
> http://stereotimes.com/speak112410.shtml
> 
> Thus I am in a better position to judge its bass.



I wouldn't be so sure about that ...


----------



## DenverW (May 12, 2020)

"Great idea..... it can be called The Obnoxious, Self Absorbed, And Blind Authoritative List of 6SN7 Tubes According To ME."

I’d totally read it.


----------



## bcowen (May 12, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> I think TS bgrp is the best 6sn7 tube with see through transparency but it is over priced overall.
> 
> I have much more revealing system than you reaching full 20hz.
> 
> ...



The monetary value of *anything* is what someone is willing to pay for it. No more, no less, and really that simple. 

You're in a great position to determine the value of a tube in  your system, but not in mine...or anybody else's.


----------



## scottcw

bcowen said:


> The monetary value of *anything* is what someone is willing to pay for it. No more, no less, and really that simple.
> 
> You're in a great position to determine the value of a tube in  your system, but not in mine...or anybody else's.



You clearly have not read The Obnoxious, Self Absorbed, And Blind Authoritative List of 6SN7 Tubes According To ME with 4 posts to an audience of one.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 12, 2020)

@bcowen can't read. He was struck blind by Carolina pulled-pork BBQ poisoning as a young lad.  His cat does all his forum posting for him.  Sad, really.   



It was the excessive vinegar and coleslaw that did it.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen can't read. He was struck blind by Carolina pulled-pork BBQ poisoning as a young lad.  His cat does all his forum posting for him.  Sad, really.
> 
> 
> 
> It was the excessive vinegar and coleslaw that did it.



How many times do I have to tell you that I never contaminate _*good*_ BBQ with coleslaw?  Now if I was stuck with only TX BBQ, I'd probably add coleslaw, whatever I could scrape out of a nearby dumpster, and probably pour some hydrochloric acid on it just to make it taste good...


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 12, 2020)

bcowen said:


> How many times do I have to tell you that I never contaminate _*good*_ BBQ with coleslaw?



Well, yeah.  After being struck blind it's probably best that you did cut-out the coleslaw.  



bcowen said:


> Now if I was stuck with only TX BBQ, I'd probably add coleslaw, whatever I could scrape out of a nearby dumpster, and probably pour some hydrochloric acid on it just to make it taste good...



Apparently your taste buds were affected along with your eyesight.   


(Ooops.  This is the 6SN7 reference thread.  My apologies for the shenanigans.)


----------



## DenverW

Ya, let’s keep this on topic.  I prefer to eat coleslaw while listening to a light and airy sylvania 6sn7gt.


----------



## ken6217

DenverW said:


> Ya, let’s keep this on topic.  I prefer to eat coleslaw while listening to a light and airy sylvania 6sn7gt.



I'll give you an interesting tweak. If you liberally apply some of the mayonnaise to the pins of those tubes, it really gives you very smooth and creamy presentation.


----------



## scottcw

Cole slaw is over priced. I have a much more revealing fork than anyone, reaching full bottom of trough. 

Thus I am in a better position to judge cole slaw's base.


----------



## housekrl

Hello everyone,
This is my first post in this great thread. I've been rolling 6SN7 tubes in my WA6 for a couple years now.
On a whim I bought some rebranded Sylvania GTA chrome tops, labeled Magnavox, for a whopping $10 on EBay.
Wouldn't you know, they are my new favorite tubes. Go figure! Most of the time i strike out on the cheap tubes. This time i struck gold. Just had to share, it was so exciting.


----------



## barbz127

housekrl said:


> Hello everyone,
> This is my first post in this great thread. I've been rolling 6SN7 tubes in my WA6 for a couple years now.
> On a whim I bought some rebranded Sylvania GTA chrome tops, labeled Magnavox, for a whopping $10 on EBay.
> Wouldn't you know, they are my new favorite tubes. Go figure! Most of the time i strike out on the cheap tubes. This time i struck gold. Just had to share, it was so exciting.


What others have you liked with the wa6?

My tube adaptors just arrived in country and looking forward getting to use them.

Currently have some rca vt232 grey glass and Sylvania vt231 ready to go in


----------



## housekrl

barbz127 said:


> What others have you liked with the wa6?
> 
> My tube adaptors just arrived in country and looking forward getting to use them.
> 
> Currently have some rca vt232 grey glass and Sylvania vt231 ready to go in


My other favorites are a NOS Hytron with 2 hole bb plates, and a NOS Tung sol. I've tried others from most of the major brands but find these along with the rebranded Sylvania the best to my ears.
I must note though that I have not paid more than $85 a pair, and average around $60 a pair.


----------



## Paladin79

Finnegan and I are checking out a PSVANE CV181TII in one of my amps and initial listening is impressive. Great mids and highs, accurate bass but I will have to spend time with a lot of different music to really form an opinion about that.


----------



## LoryWiv

Please ask Finnegan if the timbre and tone sound natural. I read elsewhere that these tubes have excellent frequency response and good technicalities but can produce an artificial sounding tonality. I think the implication was that they were technically impressive but not faithful to that user's view of "musicality".


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Please ask Finnegan if the timbre and tone sound natural. I read elsewhere that these tubes have excellent frequency response and good technicalities but can produce an artificial sounding tonality. I think the implication was that they were technically impressive but not faithful to that user's view of "musicality".


I asked. Does “meow” help?  
I was just happy he showed an interest in something besides knocking lamps off of tables.

Now as far as myself, it is a little early in the listening process for me to form strong judgements. The amp I designed tends to show the best and worst in tubes yet with my early listening I was very impressed. Other owners with the same amp and same  driver tube were similarly impressed.


----------



## bcowen (May 20, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Please ask Finnegan if the timbre and tone sound natural. I read elsewhere that these tubes have excellent frequency response and good technicalities but can produce an artificial sounding tonality. I think the implication was that they were technically impressive but not faithful to that user's view of "musicality".



While my aural acuity pales in comparison to Finnegan,  that's not my experience with it.  Too, if there's any substance to preconceived notions affecting our listening evaluation on something, then I should have hated this tube because I have a bias against Chinese tubes from earlier (bad) experiences. The CV181T-II sounds quite nice to my ears. Expensive and in the price range of many prized NOS tubes, but it looks to be very well constructed as well.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> While my aural acuity pales in comparison to Finnegan,  that's not my experience with it.  Too, if there's any substance to preconceived notions affecting our listening evaluation on something, then I should have hated this tube because I have a bias against Chinese tubes from earlier (bad) experiences. The CV181T-II sounds quite nice to my ears. Expensive and in the price range of many prized NOS tubes, but it looks to be very well constructed as well.


I know @Bowen will wince when I say it but I  tend to form opinions of tubes pretty quickly upon first listen and they rarely change much after burn in.😉


----------



## attmci (May 20, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I asked. Does “meow” help?
> I was just happy he showed an interest in something besides knocking lamps off of tables.
> 
> Now as far as myself, it is a little early in the listening process for me to form strong judgements. The amp I designed tends to show the best and worst in tubes yet with my early listening I was very impressed. Other owners with the same amp and same  driver tube were similarly impressed.


Reminds me a seller who had listed a pair of GEC 6AS7G. After a couple of days, he removed the link. I asked him what happened. He told me that's a "meow" effect, but he still love him/her. And because I am an old customer, he offer me £100  for the leftover tube. LOL


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know @Bowen will wince when I say it but II  tend to form opinions of tubes pretty quickly upon first listen and they rarely change much after burn in.😉



@bcowen is wincing too.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> @bcowen is wincing too.


Lol I cannot edit when on my phone and it’s an awful lot of trouble to get to a computer to fix such things.

I was also trying to pretend I was interested in a tv show my wife and I were watching, such is married life I suppose.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 20, 2020)

attmci said:


> Reminds me a seller who had listed a pair of GEC 6AS7G. After a couple of days, he removed the link. I asked him what happened. He told me that's a "meow" effect, but he still love him/her. And because I am an old customer, he offer me £100  for the leftover tube. LOL


Now what I want to know is if you still have that GEC 6as7g? I have had the good fortune to hear other GEC's but not that one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/a1834-tube...814404?hash=item3b3b59d8c4:g:6pkAAOSwKtBdsXdm

They are around of course.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Now what I want to know is if you still have that GEC 6as7g? I have had the good fortune to hear other GEC's but not that one.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/a1834-tube...814404?hash=item3b3b59d8c4:g:6pkAAOSwKtBdsXdm
> 
> They are around of course.


Yes. Still have it. 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 20, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Please ask Finnegan if the timbre and tone sound natural. I read elsewhere that these tubes have excellent frequency response and good technicalities but can produce an artificial sounding tonality. I think the implication was that they were technically impressive but not faithful to that user's view of "musicality".



I inquired via PM and Finnegan replied that the tube is definitely the Cat's Meow!


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I inquired via PM and Finnegan replied that the tube is definitely the Cat's Meow!







Finnegan may have helped with an amp build, does this look familiar?


----------



## Ripper2860

Vaguely.


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> I inquired via PM and Finnegan replied that the tube is definitely the Cat's Meow!


Purrfect, thank him for the reply.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan may have helped with an amp build, does this look familiar?



He's assuming that's a new litter box.  Question is whether he appreciates the headphone jack or considers it unnecessary human bling.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> He's assuming that's a new litter box.  Question is whether he appreciates the headphone jack or considers it unnecessary human bling.


I believe Finnegan was sharing some cat dander since this cabinet was going to belong to Ripper.

I am rediscovering the CBS/Hytron 5692 in an amp, a classic and a favorite in a Freya plus pre-amp.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 21, 2020)

I received Melz 1578 tube 2 hours ago.

It blew my mind with nice decay and body, deep bass, wide and deep soundstage.

I had not been blown by TS bgrp just impressed with its transparency.

To me this one is one tier above TS bgrp.

I am listening to "The Wall"  which sounds full and powerful without subwoofers.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/133366164135


I ordered one more tube as spare.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe Finnegan was sharing some cat dander since this cabinet was going to belong to Ripper.
> 
> I am rediscovering the CBS/Hytron 5692 in an amp, a classic and a favorite in a Freya plus pre-amp.



Hmmmm....thanks for mentioning that.  Might be a perfect partner with the Cetron 7236.  The Tung Sol 5998 that I've been dying to hear was supposed to be here last Saturday but is nowhere to be found. Sent by Priority Mail and arrived at the Charlotte hub on 5/15, but apparently got tired and couldn't make it the remaining 15 miles to my mailbox.     I've found over the last month that things sent regular First Class arrive much faster than anything sent Priority Mail. Apparently they reclassified it to _Low_ Priority Mail and didn't tell anyone...


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> I received Melz 1578 tube 2 hours ago.
> 
> It blew my mind with nice decay and body, deep bass, wide and deep soundstage.
> 
> ...



Those are some of the cleanest, newest looking 1578's I've yet seen!


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> I received Melz 1578 tube 2 hours ago.
> 
> It blew my mind with nice decay and body, deep bass, wide and deep soundstage.
> 83 vintage perhaps, I have some made about that timeframe.
> ...


It looks like an 83 vintage, should have in-your-face mids


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm....thanks for mentioning that.  Might be a perfect partner with the Cetron 7236.  The Tung Sol 5998 that I've been dying to hear was supposed to be here last Saturday but is nowhere to be found. Sent by Priority Mail and arrived at the Charlotte hub on 5/15, but apparently got tired and couldn't make it the remaining 15 miles to my mailbox.     I've found over the last month that things sent regular First Class arrive much faster than anything sent Priority Mail. Apparently they reclassified it to _Low_ Priority Mail and didn't tell anyone...


Running the TS 5998 with the 5692 as we speak. I had a couple in the Freya and I wanted to individually test them. It may be time to swap caps in the Cary power amp lol, I get a slight hum.


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> It looks like an 83 vintage, should have in-your-face mids


Yes it sounds as you described.

I  also ordered one made in 1970's.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Those are some of the cleanest, newest looking 1578's I've yet seen!


Those tend to get re-stenciled, often it is red or violet lettering.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 21, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> Yes it sounds as you described.
> 
> I  also ordered one made in 1970's.


Date code will be in with the Melz emblem, you did well if it is 70's then.

Hopefully the solder in the pins will not be an issue, if it is, that is an easy fix.

They do have a unique sound. I just pulled two from a Freya that should be that vintage.


----------



## bcowen (May 21, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Running the TS 5998 with the 5692 as we speak. I had a couple in the Freya and I wanted to individually test them. It may be time to swap caps in the Cary power amp lol, I get a slight hum.



You haven't re-done the caps in the SLA-70 yet?  I'm totally ashamed of you.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You haven't re-done the caps in the SLA-70 yet?  I'm totally ashamed of you.


Only the ones you gave me, there are other caps there as I recall lol. Generally I just lay round drinking scotch and eating bonbons but I guess I could find the energy to change the caps lol, after I build another 20 amps in my spare time.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Only the ones you gave me, there are other caps there as I recall lol. Generally I just lay round drinking scotch and eating bonbons but I guess I could find the energy to change the caps lol, after I build another 20 amps in my spare time.



Slacker.  

I haven't swapped out the electrolytics in the Super Amp either. Been sitting there for 2 months waiting. I'm pretty ashamed of myself too.  And I _really_ need to do the electrolytics in the Jota that are now close to 20 years old.  That will be an un-fun job as I'll pretty much have to completely disassemble the amp to get to them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Slacker.
> 
> I haven't swapped out the electrolytics in the Super Amp either. Been sitting there for 2 months waiting. I'm pretty ashamed of myself too.  And I _really_ need to do the electrolytics in the Jota that are now close to 20 years old.  That will be an un-fun job as I'll pretty much have to completely disassemble the amp to get to them.


I would offer to help but that would involve shipping the amps and I know you can handle the work once you put your mind to it.  

I am searching for pairs of 6J5's and found some nice Sylvania ST's from long ago.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would offer to help but that would involve shipping the amps and I know you can handle the work once you put your mind to it.
> 
> I am searching for pairs of 6J5's and found some nice Sylvania ST's from long ago.



The Jota weighs about 80 pounds, so shipping it back and forth is not the most financially prudent route. I do appreciate you thinking about possibly maybe potentially offering to help though. 

I'm listening to some round plate Tung Sol 6J5's along with the Mullard 6080.  Much to like.  I don't have any round plate Tung Sol 6SN7's to compare with, but these 6J5's sound good enough to make me wonder if they're just the same or close.  Well, except for the price...I paid $5 a piece for them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The Jota weighs about 80 pounds, so shipping it back and forth is not the most financially prudent route. I do appreciate you thinking about possibly maybe potentially offering to help though.
> 
> I'm listening to some round plate Tung Sol 6J5's along with the Mullard 6080.  Much to like.  I don't have any round plate Tung Sol 6SN7's to compare with, but these 6J5's sound good enough to make me wonder if they're just the same or close.  Well, except for the price...I paid $5 a piece for them.



I have black glass round plate Tung Sol’s somewhere, I may have loaned them out for the 6sn7 challenge but I have another on the way and one I could buy at $175 but I do not know the seller. Caps are replaced in the Cary, firing it up soon.


----------



## MrCypruz

Deleted.


----------



## thomaskong78

Since I use pair of 6sn7 in LM508 and quad 6sn7 in Freya, i consider ordering more 1578.

Just out of curiosity, i also had ordered cheap 6n8s tubes for comparison.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/QUAD-FOUR-Matched-Balanced-Russian-6N8S-6SN7-double-triode-TUBE-NEW-NOS/312402083888?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I do not expect them to be as good as 1578.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 22, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> Since I use pair of 6sn7 in LM508 and quad 6sn7 in Freya, i consider ordering more 1578.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, i also had ordered cheap 6n8s tubes for comparison.
> A very good Russian tube for the price is the 1958 Foton, they are out there in quantity last I looked. Once again, pin re-soldering really helps.
> ...



A very good, inexpensive tube is the 1958 Foton. They are still around, last I looked and once you resolder the pins, they can be an excellent choice for the money as Russian tubes go.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 22, 2020)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273874731266?ul_noapp=true

I placed an order of one more pair of 1578 made in 1980

It will take 6 weeks to get it.

This dealer offer 60 days of return.

After having listed to 1578 for 8 hours, I am convinced this is the King of 6sn7 with nice timber, great bass, wide and deepest soundstage.


TS bgrp is not a bad tube but it is over hyped.


----------



## scottcw

I currently don't have any other frames of reference, but Brent Jesse recommended the Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass military 6SN7GT as the closest sound to the Tung Sol round plate without a ridiculous price.

It is in the driver slot of my EC Balancing Act and sounds great. I do not know how much is the Ken Rad, the matched NOS RCA 45s, or the overall circuit of the BA. I'm happy in any case.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 22, 2020)

scottcw said:


> I currently don't have any other frames of reference, but Brent Jesse recommended the Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass military 6SN7GT as the closest sound to the Tung Sol round plate without a ridiculous price.
> 
> It is in the driver slot of my EC Balancing Act and sounds great. I do not know how much is the Ken Rad, the matched NOS RCA 45s, or the overall circuit of the BA. I'm happy in any case.





Choice of tube or cable depends on system and personal taste.

There is no best thing. for everybody.


All vt231 (Syl, Kr, Rca, RT and TS) are in the same tier, not that TS is one notch above .

Only Melz 1578 is in the first tier to my taste and system.

Bass Kr, Rca, Rt, TS , Syl in the order

Transparency TS, Syl, Kr, RT, RCA

Details Syl, TS, Kr, RT, RCA

Tonal balance Kr, RCA, TS, RT, Syl

Soundstage width RCA, Syl, TS, Kr, RT

Soundstage Depth TS, Kr, Syl, RT, RCA


Thus overall they are close in SQ.

Unless you want see-through transparency, you do not need to pay 500$ for TS bgrp.

Kr is attractive due to best bass and sweet tonality.

Syl is attractive due to excellent details and transparency

RCA give warm and lush sound which make one comfortable with nice bass.

RT is not far behind other ones.


But if I were you, I would go for 1578 instead of Kenrad vt 231.

I have three pairs of KR and they are pretty good tube but not in the same league as 1578 in soundstage, bass, dynamics and overall signature.


----------



## LoryWiv (May 22, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> Choice of tube or cable depends on system and personal taste.
> 
> There is no best thing. for everybody.
> 
> ...


Thank you @thomaskong78 for a very helpful listing. I am tempted to try the MELZ 1578 but note vintage Russian tube pins often require re-soldering to perform well and noise free. I have no soldering skills whatsoever. Is it risky to try them then?


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> Choice of tube or cable depends on system and personal taste.
> 
> There is no best thing. for everybody.
> 
> ...


There are a couple versions of the Ken-Rad black glass and that tube as well as a Melz 1578 were in at least three blind tube listening tests conducted by friends. (One person being Jason at Schiit) and in those groups, the Ken-Rad was rated higher than the Melz 1578 so opinions certainly vary. I like to get opinions from large groups myself and the next study will have at least 50 participants, many from the audio industry.   I like the 1578 as well as the black glass Ken-rad.

I have not paid $500 for the TS bgrp, some are out there for $175 or so, some of the Ken-Rad VT 231 bg can be had for $50 on occasion if you are patient.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 22, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Thank you @thomaskong78 for a very helpful listing. I am tempted to try the MELZ 1578 but have heard that the pins often require re-soldering to perform well and noise free. I have no soldering skills whatsoever. is it risky to try them then?


I have removed and replaced the solder in about 25 of those and would help out at no charge. Now that offer is not open to @bcowen since he is likely to back a truck up to my place with more Fotons than exist in Russia but I will certainly help out on occasion.

I have also posted photos in the past of step by step tube pin soldering if you would like me to walk you through that. 

I have taught soldering as well as electronics as well as having a few decades experience so I might have the credentials to help with such things.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 22, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Thank you @thomaskong78 for a very helpful listing. I am tempted to try the MELZ 1578 but note vintage Russian tube pins often require re-soldering to perform well and noise free. I have no soldering skills whatsoever. Is it risky to try them then?


The tube that I got yesterday worked fine without soldering.

If you have bad luck with 1578 tube, then you can send it to Paladin79 to have soldering done on it.

He will do the work at reasonable cost for you since he is a nice gentleman.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> The tube that I got yesterday worked fine without soldering.
> 
> If you have bad luck with 1578 tube, then you can send it to Paladin79 to have soldering done on it.
> 
> He will do the work at reasonable cost for you since he is a nice gentleman.


They do tend to work better than some of the Fotons from the fifties. People used to cook those for 100 hours till I demonstrated what changing the solder might do lol. The problems in the Melz are generally not as apparent, I have had noise at high frequencies, intermittent hum, microphony, but not on all I have bought. If you ever get a chance to listen to the 1963, that is my favorite 1578. @bcowen has one unless he lost it in a tube avalanche. He also had some from the 80's but I bought those from him a while back.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 22, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> They do tend to work better than some of the Fotons from the fifties. People used to cook those for 100 hours till I demonstrated what changing the solder might do lol. The problems in the Melz are generally not as apparent, I have had noise at high frequencies, intermittent hum, microphony, but not on all I have bought. If you ever get a chance to listen to the 1963, that is my favorite 1578. @bcowen has one unless he lost it in a tube avalanche. He also had some from the 80's but I bought those from him a while back.


Thanks a lot for valuable tips.

I noticed some high frequency  noise before warm up. but those noise are gone after 10 minutes warm up.

Then I shall ask @bcowen whether he has spare 1578 made in 1963 to sell to me.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 22, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> Thanks a lot for valuable tips.
> 
> Then I shall ask @bcowen whether he has spare 1578 made in 1963 to sell to me.



This is off subject but I do have a loaner amp out there that I designed specifically for 6sn7 listening. I do not want to put words in his mouth but @bcowen and others @Ripper2860  might corroborate that it succeeds in showing off tube differences. Down the road I may be able to lend it out to a couple of you gentlemen to check out. It is currently in North Dakota, or maybe South Dakota I forget.

This is just a hobby for me and has nothing whatsoever to do with my company and I am always happy to get fresh input. I have no intent of building more other than some I promised local friends so this is not a business venture in the least.  Currently with that amp I have four 6sn7 equivalents encased in PVC that have been used in some of my blind testing, average price for those tubes is $85-$90 each.

I would be shocked if Bill would sell that tube and friends have offered to buy my extras already.


----------



## LoryWiv (May 22, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I have removed and replaced the solder in about 25 of those and would help out at no charge. Now that offer is not open to @bcowen since he is likely to back a truck up to my place with more Fotons than exist in Russia but I will certainly help out on occasion.
> 
> I have also posted photos in the past of step by step tube pin soldering if you would like me to walk you through that.
> 
> I have taught soldering as well as electronics as well as having a few decades experience so I might have the credentials to help with such things.


You are gracious to offer @Paladin79. if I could figure out which of my ten thumbs to hold the solder gun with I could give it a try. Thankfully my profession requires my brain more than my dexterity.  I'm hunting Melz 1578 or VT231 options and if I go with the former may give you a shout. Thanks again, gentlemen!


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> You are gracious to offer @Paladin79. if I could figure out which of my ten thumbs to hold the solder gun with I could give it a try. Thankfully my profession requires my brain more than my dexterity.  I'm hunting Melz 1578 or VT231 options and if I go with the former may give you a shout. Thanks again, gentlemen!


I have to use my brain as well but I like challenges and right now I am learning woodworking and more metallurgy.


----------



## thomaskong78

LoryWiv said:


> You are gracious to offer @Paladin79. if I could figure out which of my ten thumbs to hold the solder gun with I could give it a try. Thankfully my profession requires my brain more than my dexterity.  I'm hunting Melz 1578 or VT231 options and if I go with the former may give you a shout. Thanks again, gentlemen!


If you want  to go for VT231, i may sell a pair at nice price either Kenrad or RCA vt231 at excellent condition.

I had amassed three pairs of KR and RCA but may not need that many after getting three pairs of 1578.

If you are interested, pm me.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> Since I use pair of 6sn7 in LM508 and quad 6sn7 in Freya, i consider ordering more 1578.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, i also had ordered cheap 6n8s tubes for comparison.
> 
> ...



Not to dis on your purchase, but those appear to be '70's manufacture which while not bad by any means are not nearly as good as the '50's.  Hard to beat the price on these '58's while this seller still has some. Still won't be as good as the Melz 1578, but sound very nice period, and especially for the money (IMO).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...645882?hash=item23cc316a3a:g:zcMAAOSwY9pd3OhS

I've bought several different times from this seller and had good experiences each time. FWIW.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have black glass round plate Tung Sol’s somewhere, I may have loaned them out for the 6sn7 challenge but I have another on the way and one I could buy at $175 but I do not know the seller. Caps are replaced in the Cary, firing it up soon.



Crap!  Is this re-shaming?  Kind of like re-gifting? Now *I* have to replace the caps in my Cary. And I had other things to do this weekend, like petting the cat.  No rest for the weary, I guess.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is off subject but I do have a loaner amp out there that I designed specifically for 6sn7 listening. I do not want to put words in his mouth but @bcowen and others @Ripper2860  might corroborate that it succeeds in showing off tube differences. Down the road I may be able to lend it out to a couple of you gentlemen to check out. It is currently in North Dakota, or maybe South Dakota I forget.
> 
> This is just a hobby for me and has nothing whatsoever to do with my company and I am always happy to get fresh input. I have no intent of building more other than some I promised local friends so this is not a business venture in the least.  Currently with that amp I have four 6sn7 equivalents encased in PVC that have been used in some of my blind testing, average price for those tubes is $85-$90 each.
> 
> I would be shocked if Bill would sell that tube and friends have offered to buy my extras already.



Sell a tube?  That's a very difficult concept. Tubes are made to be hoarded collected, which necessitates intake and precludes outflow.  Perhaps there's a class at the local community college that can instruct me on this strange ritual. Probably won't click, but you never know.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sell a tube?  That's a very difficult concept. Tubes are made to be hoarded collected, which necessitates intake and precludes outflow.  Perhaps there's a class at the local community college that can instruct me on this strange ritual. Probably won't click, but you never know.


I believe I gifted you the 63 Melz, if you do sell it I should get a small portion of the proceeds. 85% seems about right.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Not to dis on your purchase, but those appear to be '70's manufacture which while not bad by any means are not nearly as good as the '50's.  Hard to beat the price on these '58's while this seller still has some. Still won't be as good as the Melz 1578, but sound very nice period, and especially for the money (IMO).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...645882?hash=item23cc316a3a:g:zcMAAOSwY9pd3OhS
> 
> I've bought several different times from this seller and had good experiences each time. FWIW.


I would have bought some tubes from the above seller unless he charge 100$ for shipping. 

My journey is almost over.

I had better finish shootout and go back to music lover.

From 2013 to 2017 I had spent just 1000$ on Cocktail Audio x12 music server and few Nos 12au7 and 12ax7 tubes.

But since 2018 I had spent too much money on audio components and gadgets.

My  system already sounds so musical that it should be inside  top 5% or even 2 % among audiophile system.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> I would have bought some tubes from the above seller unless he charge 100$ for shipping.
> 
> My journey is almost over.
> 
> ...



That last statement is interesting lol.


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> That last statement is interesting lol.


If you live close by to my home, you can find out yourself.

But it is 2000 miles away. 


I had my first serious audio system on 1978.

Since then I had paid attention to small details to make my system sound detailed and dynamic but not over the top.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe I gifted you the 63 Melz, if you do sell it I should get a small portion of the proceeds. 85% seems about right.



Please re-read immediately preceding post.   

Seriously, I only sell off tubes I don't like, or seem to somehow(?) have _collected _an extreme excess of.  I'm about halfway de-stashed of the 12AU7 pile that once numbered close to 500.  Don't even have any components left that use the 12AU7 natively. Duh.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> If you live close by to my home, you can find out yourself.
> 
> But it is 2000 miles away.
> 
> ...


I had my first in the 60’s but I was pretty young. I have worked in speaker design and most aspects of audio. I tend to build what I cannot buy and as far as systems, my audiophile group has some pretty deep pockets so I have heard phenomenal gear with regularity. 

Every time I believe I have heard the be all end all system I hear something I like better lol.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 22, 2020)

1578 tube is one of the epic products that had me blown out.

1. Thiel speaker driven by Perreuax pre and power(200watts) on 1986
2.  Apogee Duetta Sig speaker on 1989
3. Krell KSA 150  on1990
4. DCS Elgar Dac and CEC tl0x transport on 1998
5. Jadis 500 to drive B&W Notilus 800 on 1999
6. Silbatone SET amplifier with WE 300B made in 1940's on 2001
7. Lansche 4.1 speaker with plasma tweeter on 2007
8. Line Magnetic 508 SET on 2018
9. Stax 009s and Sr1a headphones on 2019
10.  1578 tube on 2020

1578 makes my system full bodied with nice decay and with widest soundstage that I have had in my listening room.

It is a steal at 250$ that I had paid.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...kqPO4XjfoWX7MF20VYBo=w1200-h800-no?authuser=0

This was taken about 3 years ago.  Except Lansche 4.1 speaker, Audio Note IC and SC cables, every major components had been replaced


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Please re-read immediately preceding post.
> 
> Seriously, I only sell off tubes I don't like, or seem to somehow(?) have _collected _an extreme excess of.  I'm about halfway de-stashed of the 12AU7 pile that once numbered close to 500.  Don't even have any components left that use the 12AU7 natively. Duh.


Hmm I seem to remember building a BH Crack or two, I might use a 12AU7 in such an amp but if you start gifting me tubes I will have to reciprocate and my next design will be very pricey so think big!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 22, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> 1578 tube is one of the epic products that I had experienced.
> 
> 1. Thiel speaker driven by Perreuax pre and power(200watts) on 1986
> 2.  Apogee Duetta Sig speaker on 1989
> ...


LOL
This is like deja vu all over again. What if I sent you a Melz 1578, any year you wish, in primo condition along with say seven other tubes, 6sn7 equivalent. You would be able to pick out that tube with no problem because it is such a remarkable tube to you? I like a challenge but I must warn you I have done this type thing before. You would not know the identity of any tube.

I have heard most all of the gear on your list at one time or another. Are you listening to the 1578's on a Line Magnetic? It has been a while since my group listened to one but I have a pretty idea how it rated. I just cannot remember if it takes two tubes or one and matched pairs would certainly prove a challenge for me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hmm I seem to remember building a BH Crack or two, I might use a 12AU7 in such an amp but if you start gifting me tubes I will have to reciprocate and my next design will be very pricey so think big!



I think I have a dozen or so of these left.  Big enough?   

This seller's ad is rather misleading. The 12AU7WAH is an ECC802S equivalent. The 'WA' is just a regular 12AU7.  Mine, of course, are the WAH's with the long hole plates, which are of course better than the versions with the small hole plates and the solid plates.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I think I have a dozen or so of these left.  Big enough?
> 
> This seller's ad is rather misleading. The 12AU7WAH is an ECC802S equivalent. The 'WA' is just a regular 12AU7.  Mine, of course, are the WAH's with the long hole plates, which are of course better than the versions with the small hole plates and the solid plates.


It is a start


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is a start



Well then. I might have to go to my private stash.  Normal people aren't even allowed to look at it. Of course that would necessitate your next big thing to have a couple 300B's sprouting out of the top.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well then. I might have to go to my private stash.  Normal people aren't even allowed to look at it. Of course that would necessitate your next big thing to have a couple 300B's sprouting out of the top.


Nos WE 300B pair made in 1940's or 1950' fetch 10K$ or more now.

Thus if you find 10 nice ones, you can move into larger house.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well then. I might have to go to my private stash.  Normal people aren't even allowed to look at it. Of course that would necessitate your next big thing to have a couple 300B's sprouting out of the top.


LOL sprouting eh? You must be planting a garden in your spare time when you are not petting your cat.
 300b, 6080, practically the same thing only different. Since it is for you I will have to check to see if GE ever made 300B's.  If I make you a set of mono blocks you get no input whatsoever, that is why I give things to you, it is much easier than giving you choices.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL sprouting eh? You must be planting a garden in your spare time when you are not petting your cat.
> 300b, 6080, practically the same thing only different. Since it is for you I will have to check to see if GE ever made 300B's.  If I make you a set of mono blocks you get no input whatsoever, that is why I give things to you, it is much easier than giving you choices.



If GE had ever made a 300B it would have been designated the 300BLAH. 

No need for monoblocks. One 300B per channel in a stereo amp would do the trick. Single-ended of course, but you already knew that. Better yet, use 300BXLS's. 20 watts/channel. 'Phone impedance whether high, low, or close to a dead short would be irrelevant. And 6SN7's make great drivers for them, so you'd only have to buy two tubes. For you. I have some.  LOL!

And just so there's no misunderstanding, that's not input.  I was merely thinking out loud.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If GE had ever made a 300B it would have been designated the 300BLAH.
> 
> No need for monoblocks. One 300B per channel in a stereo amp would do the trick. Single-ended of course, but you already knew that. Better yet, use 300BXLS's. 20 watts/channel. 'Phone impedance whether high, low, or close to a dead short would be irrelevant. And 6SN7's make great drivers for them, so you'd only have to buy two tubes. For you. I have some.  LOL!
> 
> And just so there's no misunderstanding, that's not input.  I was merely thinking out loud.


It would be easier to just house train a feral cat, or maybe a badger. Maybe I could just get one of those from the wild, it would be less stressful than building you something lol.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 23, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I believe I gifted you the 63 Melz, if you do sell it I should get a small portion of the proceeds. 85% seems about right.


I found Melz 1578 claimed to be made in 63 at Ebay.






They have five holes but not 1578 logo.

Are they really 1578?


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> I found Melz 1578 claimed to be made in 63 at Ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They look to be true 1578's with the metal mica supports up top. Can't see the shape of the bottom mica though which is also important.

I have some '64's coming.  Some assembly required.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 23, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> I found Melz 1578 claimed to be made in 63 at Ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


According to my Russian source, and I know and trust him fairly well. A lot of stamping goes on to convince people they are getting 1578's, mine come new in original packaging without the 1578 on them.That is why some of the lettering looks so fresh and new, it is. That tube has all the proper indicators, so it is correct.

The violet 1578 down below is definitely wrong.This is a seller I was warned about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-1578-6N...951454?hash=item261891959e:g:g0sAAOSwiOZcTAXD

Notice how sloppy the paint or ink looks. I buy 63's in bulk but I stay away from the others, I also prefer the sound of the 63's.


----------



## thomaskong78

The following is quoted from other person.

i will have two pairs of 1578 made in 80's and one made in 70"s

But i am also curious about one made in 60's or even  50's.

So far I like the sound out of one made in 80's.

"Every version of the military 68HC tube with metal base is a little different sounding. Even each year of 1578's are different too. Finding the holy grail is not easy and finding tubes that measure like new is not easy either. Best to stock up on them before they all disappear. I have several versions of 68HC and two or three versions of 1578. The best I think is the 1578 from the 70's. "


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 23, 2020)

One Russian dealer try to sell stock of 13 tubes made in 1968.

It also appears to have five holes and other typical shape of 1578, but no 1578 logo either.

After getting delivery of 1578 made in 70's on Wednesday I will decide whether to go for 13 stock tubes made in 68.

I welcome input from experienced users.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> The following is quoted from other person.
> 
> i will have two pairs of 1578 made in 80's and one made in 70"s
> 
> ...


Each persons taste is different I liked the 70’s and 80’s version till I heard the 63’s. Friends and I are doing a 52 tube challenge and the 63 is the only 1578 voted in for consideration but there is a caveat. We are using my amps and they tend to show flaws and major differences. You need not take my word for that. Ask around.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> It would be easier to just house train a feral cat, or maybe a badger. Maybe I could just get one of those from the wild, it would be less stressful than building you something lol.


Quick off-topic question about your amp…
Why not have an optional 12v heater (the biggest benefit of the G1217 Project Solstice)? 12sn7s are waaaay cheaper than the 6v ones


----------



## attmci

thomaskong78 said:


> I found Melz 1578 claimed to be made in 63 at Ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are a lot of previous discussions. Google is your friend. Many ppl agree this is not a genuine 1578.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Quick off-topic question about your amp…
> Why not have an optional 12v heater (the biggest benefit of the G1217 Project Solstice)? 12sn7s are waaaay cheaper than the 6v ones


The amp was designed for 6SN7 testing so I concentrated on that. It would be feasible to run a 12 volt filament with my current power transformer so I might consider it sometime. For now, I have promises to keep and the majority of my friends own 6SN7’s.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> There are a lot of previous discussions. Google is your friend. Many ppl agree this is not a genuine 1578.


Lol and because someone stamps a number on it, it is lol. There are specific indicators you look for, that tube has them but believe what you want to believe.


----------



## attmci (May 23, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Lol and because someone stamps a number on it, it is lol. There are specific indicators you look for, that tube has them but believe what you want to believe.


So true. It's very easy to produce some 1578.

I cannot tell the difference between a ECC33 and a ECC35 without use it.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 23, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Lol and because someone stamps a number on it, it is lol. There are specific indicators you look for...



Well, that would have been nice to know a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> According to my Russian source, and I know and trust him fairly well. A lot of stamping goes on to convince people they are getting 1578's, mine come new in original packaging without the 1578 on them.That is why some of the lettering looks so fresh and new, it is. That tube has all the proper indicators, so it is correct.
> 
> The violet 1578 down below is definitely wrong.This is a seller I was warned about.
> 
> ...



Interesting. I'd always looked at the metal mica supports up top as one of the main qualifiers of a 1578 versus just a regular hole plate Melz. The tube on the right has the metal supports, the tube on the left doesn't. No way the one on the left is a 1578.  The one on the right is questionable, but the tabs on the bottom mica are also a requirement and that can't be seen clearly. I've also never seen 1578 printed on the base...only on the glass. I've bought several things from that seller without any issue, but not any Melz tubes.  If he's going to enter the relabeling business, he should probably confer with BangyBang Tubes for some pointers.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, that would have been nice to know a couple of weeks ago.



ROFL!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (May 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Interesting. I'd always looked at the metal mica supports up top as one of the main qualifiers of a 1578 versus just a regular hole plate Melz. The tube on the right has the metal supports, the tube on the left doesn't. No way the one on the left is a 1578.  The one on the right is questionable, but the tabs on the bottom mica are also a requirement and that can't be seen clearly. I've also never seen 1578 printed on the base...only on the glass. I've bought several things from that seller without any issue, but not any Melz tubes.  If he's going to enter the relabeling business, he should probably confer with BangyBang Tubes for some pointers.


Absolutely, as I said I was warned about that seller and the tubes are stamped with identical markings lol.
Come to think of it a friend from Minnesota got ripped off on one of his tubes and that was the source a few of us used till I found my current source.


----------



## thomaskong78

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-JAN-CRP-6SN7GT-VT-231-Vacuum-Tubes-1944-Balanced-Matched-on-Hickok/392787627010?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2

I won this Raytheon Vt231 tube at Ebay auction at 50$ on May 11th.
Including shipping and tax, total cost was 65$ on me.

After receiving this one yesterday, I replaced Melz 1578 with this RT vt213 for examination and comparison purpose this afternoon.

Wow this is the best 65$ that I had spent on audio gadget.
While 1578 sound more dynamic with nice decays, wider soundstage, this RT sound little bit more clean on treble.

The only downside of Melz 1578 is some crackle noise before warmup.

Most of crackle noise is gone after 10 minutes warmup but compared with RT vt231, I noticed slight high frequency noise.

Overall I am still of the opinion that Melz 1578 is the King of 6sn7 with explosive dynamics, deep bass, widest and deepest soundstage.

But valuewise, this Raytheon Vt231 which cost me 65$ is the best value with nice musicality.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-JAN-CRP-6SN7GT-VT-231-Vacuum-Tubes-1944-Balanced-Matched-on-Hickok/392787627010?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2
> 
> I won this Raytheon Vt231 tube at Ebay auction at 50$ on May 11th.
> Including shipping and tax, total cost was 65$ on me.
> ...


Um the Melz is most likely fixable but I recall someone saying it was fine? Maybe I am confused. How many different 6SN7’s have you listened to in headphone amps?


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> Um the Melz is most likely fixable but I recall someone saying it was fine? Maybe I am confused. How many different 6SN7’s have you listened to in headphone amps?


I had tried 15 different kinds of 6sn7 on Line Magnetic 508 amplifiers to drive Lansche 4.1.

Also I have Schitt Freya in my headphone system.

But I found that my 2 channel system is more sensitive to change of 6sn7 tubes.

Crackle noise is not that bad after 10 minutes warmup, but compared with RT vt231 I noticed slight noise which does not bother me very  much.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> I had tried 15 different kinds of 6sn7 on Line Magnetic 508 amplifiers to drive Lansche 4.1.
> 
> Also I have Schitt Freya in my headphone system.
> 
> ...


So an integrated amp and a pre-amp it sounds like. I test, replace the solder, test again before plugging the Melz into equipment so I never get those results.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 23, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> So an integrated amp and a pre-amp it sounds like. I test, replace the solder, test again before plugging the Melz into equipment so I never get those results.


If cracking noise bother me very much in the future, I shall try soldering on the tube.

For the time being I will listen to it as is.

I expect to get another Melz 1578 on Wednesday made in 1973.

The one that I am using is supposed to be made in 80's.

I will also compare cracking noise between those two.


----------



## bcowen

I was almost ready to jump on this 1949 KenRad.  Even though GE bought them out in 1945, the 188-4 indicates the KenRad Owensboro plant and the black plates are KenRad design and materials (GE changed everything to gray plates once the bean counters moved in and got their offices decorated). Then I noticed the white blob at the base that should be, um, like silver.   Seller states "tested good."  Right.  The charlatans on Ebay continue to proliferate...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was almost ready to jump on this 1949 KenRad.  Even though GE bought them out in 1945, the 188-4 indicates the KenRad Owensboro plant and the black plates are KenRad design and materials (GE changed everything to gray plates once the bean counters moved in and got their offices decorated). Then I noticed the white blob at the base that should be, um, like silver.   Seller states "tested good."  Right.  The charlatans on Ebay continue to proliferate...


I have not heard one but for that price it is worth a try.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-JAN-CRP-6SN7GT-VT-231-Vacuum-Tubes-1944-Balanced-Matched-on-Hickok/392787627010?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2
> 
> I won this Raytheon Vt231 tube at Ebay auction at 50$ on May 11th.
> Including shipping and tax, total cost was 65$ on me.
> ...



Have you listened to both of the Raytheons?  From the auction photos, looks like one has T-plates and the other has flat ladder plates.  Distinctly different sound between them to my ears.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have not heard one but for that price it is worth a try.



That's what I was thinking until I saw the vaporized getter flash.


----------



## thomaskong78

bcowen said:


> Have you listened to both of the Raytheons?  From the auction photos, looks like one has T-plates and the other has flat ladder plates.  Distinctly different sound between them to my ears.


No I tested one I won at auction.

I may swap with earlier one.

But somehow I got the feeling that this one give better bass.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's what I was thinking until I saw the vaporized getter flash.


I do not see them come up for sale often but now I am curious about them.


----------



## thomaskong78

bcowen said:


> Have you listened to both of the Raytheons?  From the auction photos, looks like one has T-plates and the other has flat ladder plates.  Distinctly different sound between them to my ears.


I had gone back and forth between two RT tubes.

They sound similar but one with T-plate has slightly more bass slam.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> I was almost ready to jump on this 1949 KenRad.  Even though GE bought them out in 1945, the 188-4 indicates the KenRad Owensboro plant and the black plates are KenRad design and materials (GE changed everything to gray plates once the bean counters moved in and got their offices decorated). Then I noticed the white blob at the base that should be, um, like silver.   Seller states "tested good."  Right.  The charlatans on Ebay continue to proliferate...



What a sharp look. I bought my 6as7g chatham from this same seller. I hope there's nothing wrong with him.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> I had gone back and forth between two RT tubes.
> 
> They sound similar but one with T-plate has slightly more bass slam.



Thanks for giving both a listen.  I like the T-plate version quite a bit. The flat plate?  Have a bunch of those and perhaps the one I listened to when I was comparing had issues, but I couldn't much stand it. Bright, screechy, grating and just chewed on my ears.  But based on what you're describing maybe it was just a bad sample. I'll go back and listen to another one or two and see.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> What a sharp look. I bought my 6as7g chatham from this same seller. I hope there's nothing wrong with him.



I hope not too.  Chances are the lettering on the base of the Chatham you bought is engraved, which would make it difficult (if not impossible) to relabel or counterfeit. Let us know once you get it.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 24, 2020)

I have a matched pair of Raytheon T plates in a Freya plus right now but I would have to listen to them individually in an Incubus to tell much about them but I may try that soon.
I was given the Raytheons as I recall along with some other matched pairs and quads.

I have been listening to a Psvane CV181-TII for a while. That tube and a couple pieces by OPPO are probably the only Chinese gear I own but I may try more Psvanes down the road, this tube has promise.

Ok I tried the Raytheons in a revealing headphone amp and while there is decent bass the mids were lacking and underwhelming as were the highs. I have test tracks that lend themselves to 25 criteria in the sonic spectrum and only made it to the sixth test before I had enough lol. On to other tubes for me but the Raytheons are suitable in a Freya or such but not for serious listening IMHO.

I inserted the 63 Melz and put on Art Pepper's Waltz me Blues and I am once again encompassed in sonic bliss.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I hope not too.  Chances are the lettering on the base of the Chatham you bought is engraved, which would make it difficult (if not impossible) to relabel or counterfeit. Let us know once you get it.


I have Chathams but they are the 6080WG's as best i recall, wonderful tubes. If the 6as7g is anywhere close, that should be a nice find.


----------



## LoryWiv

Does anyone know if Marconi Canada is the real deal? I know the golden age was British. Considering these but not certain if they will live up to the Marconi reputation:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-NOS-N...-Plate-Smoke-Glass-Canada-Strong/114141580685


----------



## LoryWiv

I pulled the trigger on these UK Brimars instead of the Marconi. Can anyone tell what date they were made from the markings? Is it Q3 of 1956 based on what is visible on the lateral base margins or is this not how one identifies these tubes (I know the codes are not always what they seem?) Thanks for any infor, I am excited to try these in my Feliks-Audio Elise.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184303760199


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> I pulled the trigger on these UK Brimars instead of the Marconi. Can anyone tell what date they were made from the markings? Is it Q3 of 1956 based on what is visible on the lateral base margins or is this not how one identifies these tubes (I know the codes are not always what they seem?) Thanks for any infor, I am excited to try these in my Feliks-Audio Elise.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/184303760199



I am not well versed on Brimars in the least, but with the oval plate construction those are almost certainly '50's production.  Bet they sound awesome!


----------



## bcowen (May 25, 2020)

ken6217 said:


> I decided to go in a different direction with my amp. If anyone is interested, I am selling these TSRP below. They had never been used prior to me getting them. They now have about 30 hours on them. They are immaculate. I'm too embarrassed to tell you what I paid for them, but if you are interested in them, please let me know.
> 
> I also have a pair of excellent strong Ken Rad VT-231 grey glass, and  Pair of KR Audio 300B  tubes with low hours for sale.



And I'm too embarrassed to say that even if you're selling them at a discount relative to what you paid, I can't afford them.   I will say though that I've purchased several times from Bullz and have received tubes exactly as he's advertised them each time.  He's not necessarily the cheapest, but his prices aren't inflated by any means and he's one of the increasingly few Ebay sellers that is honest and upfront IME.

Edit: Are the KR's regular 300B's or the 300BXLS's?  If the former, @Paladin79 might be interested for an amp he's planning to build in the near future.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 26, 2020)

What's the story on the grey plated Sylvania? In this case the semi round one (T plates?) I found listed on eBay, 1951 6SN7GT Sylvania. Is there such an animal? Wondering if it's just the flash of the photograph.


----------



## Ripper2860

Never seen a 3-hole gray plate.  I suspect it is the photo.  If you're interested, you might want to ping the seller and have them message more pics.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Never seen a 3-hole gray plate.  I suspect it is the photo.  If you're interested, you might want to ping the seller and have them message more pics.


I don't know...might be grey


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> What's the story on the grey plated Sylvania? In this case the semi round one (T plates?) I found listed on eBay, 1951 6SN7GT Sylvania. Is there such an animal? Wondering if it's just the flash of the photograph.



I think it's just the photo.  I've never seen a round plate Sylvania 6SN7 (round plate 6S*L*7's are quite common, OTOH).  Doesn't mean a round plate Sylvania 6SN7 doesn't exist, I've just never seen one.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 26, 2020)

Well, if it is, it may be one of a kind or one of very few in the wild.  To me it lookms like it's not a round plate -- it looks like rectangular plates just like my true 3H-BB Sylvies, just the wrong color.  It looks like a VERY bright light shining from the top, but I don't think that's enough to make it look that gray.  Can you say HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE!!??


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, if it is, it may be one of a kind or one of very few in the wild.  Can you say HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE!!??


Kinda hoping, feather in my cap if I actually get the thing, I sent the seller a message asking about it. See what he says.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I don't know...might be grey



The somewhat rounded edges of the T-plates are strange.  Almost looks like the forming tooling was badly worn.  I get the same thing at work when press brake dies start to wear -- the sharp 'creased' edge of a 90-degree bend starts to round off.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Kinda hoping, feather in my cap if I actually get the thing, I sent the seller a message asking about it. See what he says.


I believe I own one or two of those but I want to say they generally had another name on them.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, if it is, it may be one of a kind or one of very few in the wild.  Can you say HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE!!??



Perhaps.  Or maybe a bad hangover Monday production lot.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe I own one or two of those but I want to say they generally had another name on them.



"Rejects"?  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The somewhat rounded edges of the T-plates are strange.  Almost looks like the forming tooling was badly worn.  I get the same thing at work when press brake dies start to wear -- the sharp 'creased' edge of a 90-degree bend starts to round off.


Probably why it's listed low


Paladin79 said:


> I believe I own one or two of those but I want to say they generally had another name on them.


The plot thickens....


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Perhaps.  Or maybe a bad hangover Monday production lot.



Well, if like a double-strike coin getting past the mint, this made it past Sylvania QC, then it's still HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, if like a double-strike coin, it made it past Sylvania QC, then it's still HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE!!


That and on some rails for the train to run over...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, if like a double-strike coin getting past the mint, this made it past Sylvania QC, then it's still HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE!!



Perhaps. Or maybe the Sylvania quality inspector attended the same party.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 26, 2020)

Nobody ever did the coin on the train track thing?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> "Rejects"?  LOL!


I will do some research tomorrow but those look familiar.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Perhaps. Or maybe the Sylvania quality inspector attended the same party.


L M F A O .... Rolling on Da Floor!!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Nobody ever did the coin on the train track thing?



I always lived on the other side of the tracks.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I am not well versed on Brimars in the least, but with the oval plate construction those are almost certainly '50's production.  Bet they sound awesome!


Does that seller sounds familiar to you?


----------



## attmci (May 26, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Does anyone know if Marconi Canada is the real deal? I know the golden age was British. Considering these but not certain if they will live up to the Marconi reputation:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-NOS-N...-Plate-Smoke-Glass-Canada-Strong/114141580685


Delete.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Does that seller sounds familiar to you?



Seller on the Brimars?  Didn't even pay attention initially, sad to say.  Menifee Audio is BangyBang.  Not that I would ever buy anything from either, but from what I've seen being sold on the Menifee site the tubes usually look to be genuine. Seriously overpriced in most cases, but genuine.  The BangyBang site is for the fakes and relabels. Overpriced too even if the tubes were legit (which in most cases they aren't).  One of the worst scammers on Ebay, IMO.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Did you see the RCA icon on the box?



I think that's RVC (Radio Valve Company) rather than RCA:

http://www.jproc.ca/marconi/tube_production.html


----------



## attmci (May 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I think that's RVC (Radio Valve Company) rather than RCA:
> 
> http://www.jproc.ca/marconi/tube_production.html


There is no Marconi 6SN7GT, it's a B65!

But this looks like something different. The American Marconi is RCA for sure.

Italian Marconi is* Firve.*


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> Seller on the Brimars?  Didn't even pay attention initially, sad to say.  Menifee Audio is BangyBang.  Not that I would ever buy anything from either, but from what I've seen being sold on the Menifee site the tubes usually look to be genuine. Seriously overpriced in most cases, but genuine.  The BangyBang site is for the fakes and relabels. Overpriced too even if the tubes were legit (which in most cases they aren't).  One of the worst scammers on Ebay, IMO.


Yikes, I did order a pair of Brimar's from Menifee, forgot they were same folks as BangyBang which I knew to steer clear of. The photos and test results looked favorable and price reasonable. I should have them in 4-5 days and will report if concerns.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 27, 2020)

I bought a clear glass / brown base Brimar CV1988 / 6SN7GTY and should be getting it in a few weeks.  While it does not actually say Brimar, the plates and mica structure are a give-away.  The plates on this one are BLACK as they are on my smoked glass Brimar CV1988.

If your CV1988s sound anything like my smoked glass, you'll be very happy, IMHO.


----------



## Dave01236

Does anyone have experience with the mullard ecc35's AND the sylvania metal base 6sn7w? I'm currently rocking the mullard's in my WA22 amp, and I've heard amazing things about the sylvania tubes. I just don't know how they compare against the mullards. And nowadays the sylvania tubes are CRAZY expensive. So, gotta make sure before I do anything stupid to my wallet.

I'm also curious about the 6fg8 tung sol tubes, if someone could compare them to the ecc35's that'd be great as well since they are much cheaper than the sylvania tubes and still offer a great sound.


----------



## thomaskong78

Dave01236 said:


> Does anyone have experience with the mullard ecc35's AND the sylvania metal base 6sn7w? I'm currently rocking the mullard's in my WA22 amp, and I've heard amazing things about the sylvania tubes. I just don't know how they compare against the mullards. And nowadays the sylvania tubes are CRAZY expensive. So, gotta make sure before I do anything stupid to my wallet.
> 
> I'm also curious about the 6fg8 tung sol tubes, if someone could compare them to the ecc35's that'd be great as well since they are much cheaper than the sylvania tubes and still offer a great sound.


Mullard ecc35' is 6sl7 tube with 3 times more gain than 6sn7.

They may be interchangeable in some amps and not in other amps due to distortion.

i had used Mullard ecc35' in Line Magnetic 508 for one year with good result.

But about 3 weeks ago I replaced it with RCA 5691 which give better details and deeper bass than Mullard ecc35'.

Pair of Rca 5691 can be bought at around 200$ from  Ebay.


----------



## Dave01236

thomaskong78 said:


> Mullard ecc35' is 6sl7 tube with 3 times more gain than 6sn7.
> 
> They may be interchangeable in some amps and not in other amps due to distortion.
> 
> ...


    Yes my amp supports both the 6sl7 and the 6sn7. And im surprised that those rca tubes sound actually better than the mullards! I'll see if i could find a decent pair of those.


----------



## attmci

Dave01236 said:


> Yes my amp supports both the 6sl7 and the 6sn7. And im surprised that those rca tubes sound actually better than the mullards! I'll see if i could find a decent pair of those.


You can find a pair.

However, I disagree with thomas. It depends.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 28, 2020)

QUAD FOUR Matched Balanced Russian 6N8S 6SN7 double triode TUBE NEW NOS | eBay

After listening to 1578 Melz, I am back to Nos 6n8s tube made in 1978 that I got quad at 46$.

By the way i got my first serious audio system on 1978.

What a coincidence.

This is a steal.

It sound musical with good balance of full bass and sweet treble.

Jump at it before they run out of this batch.


----------



## thomaskong78

Deleted


----------



## thomaskong78

attmci said:


> You can find a pair.
> 
> However, I disagree with thomas. It depends.


You seem to be nice gentleman.

Thanks for kind word.


----------



## Phantaminum

Dave01236 said:


> Does anyone have experience with the mullard ecc35's AND the sylvania metal base 6sn7w? I'm currently rocking the mullard's in my WA22 amp, and I've heard amazing things about the sylvania tubes. I just don't know how they compare against the mullards. And nowadays the sylvania tubes are CRAZY expensive. So, gotta make sure before I do anything stupid to my wallet.
> 
> I'm also curious about the 6fg8 tung sol tubes, if someone could compare them to the ecc35's that'd be great as well since they are much cheaper than the sylvania tubes and still offer a great sound.



You’re talking about top tier tubes. 

Mullards are nice and warm. Really fantastic for its smokey, smooth mids, with  great bass and are holographic. They are  some of my favorites.

 Sylvania 6SN7Ws  have more treble extension, with punchy bass, while behaving more neutral. Holographic as well. 

Tung-Sol 6c8g sounds just like the BGRP 6SN7 version. They take a bit more to open up but have great treble extension, great bass, and have fantastic drive. The PRaT on these is some if not the best. You can’t go wrong with any of them  but rating them it would go:

1. TS 6c8g
2. Mullard ECC35
3. Sylvania 6SN7W


----------



## whirlwind

Phantaminum said:


> You’re talking about top tier tubes.
> 
> Mullards are nice and warm. Really fantastic for its smokey, smooth mids, with  great bass and are holographic. They are  some of my favorites.
> 
> ...




Great description of these tubes, and pretty much spot on to what I hear
I adore the sound of the Mullards, whether it be ECC 31/32/33/35 all are some of the best I have heard.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 28, 2020)

After listening to 6n8s tube made in 1978 for several hours, I am back to Kenrad vt 231.
KR also has nice bass with sweet and refined atmostphere.

Definitely KR vt231 is at least half notch or even one notch above 6n8s .


Now I have 16 different variants of 6sn7 tubess.

After changing tube, sound also change as if new pre is being used.

It is like tasting various wines or coffees.

But if you do lot of tube rolling, be sure to use socket saver.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CED-P-ST8-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


By the way, if your amp can use both 6sn7 and 6sl7, then it is economical to buy 6sl7.

Pair of TS bgrp 6sn7 cost 500$ or more while you can get pair of  TS bg vt229 around 100$.

I also have TS bg vt229 which sounds vivid with lot of details like TS bgrp vt231.


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> After listening to 6n8s tube made in 1978 for several hours, I am back to Kenrad vt 231.
> KR also has nice bass with sweet and refined atmostphere.
> 
> Definitely KR vt231 is at least half notch or even one notch above 6n8s .
> ...


Preaching to the choir, but thanks for sharing your experiences.


----------



## JKDJedi

I sent the seller (EbaY)two messages asking about the grey ghost (Sylvania) and no answer... the silence is killing me !!! How should I rate this in the communication? 1 star?


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 28, 2020)

*Another person got 1578 tube this afternoon.

His impression.

big_greg*
2,391 posts
05-28-2020 6:14pm
First impression of the 1578 - wow! Looking forward to see how they sound after a little burn in.




https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pair-Extremely-rare-1578-6N8S-audiophile-6H8S-6SN7-Metal-base/273874731266?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

This afternoon, I got delivery of another 1578 Melz tube from Russia after one week from placing order.

Very fast shipping.

I had not got tubes yet from Ukraine that I ordered 5 weeks ago.

This 1578 was made in 1980 and looks clean as Nos tube.

After playing demagnetization track, I am listening to familiar music to me.

"Thriller" by MJ sounds spooky with deep and full bass, wide and deep soundstage.

Its bass, decay and soundstage is just beyond any other 6sn7 tubes.

But people may get the impression that it is bass heavy.

Now I have three pairs of 1587 Melz tubes and eight 6n8s tubes, I am going to stop shopping of 6sn7 tubes.

After being back from Kr vt231 this morning, I found that 1578 give more body and decay while KR give almost same amount of details as 1578.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 28, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> *Another person got 1578 tube this afternoon.
> 
> His impression.
> 
> ...


Dammit....now I'm craving another Russian made tube .  I'm super curious now about these as @Paladin79 shares the same excitement about these tubes. To be or not to be....

Edit: this thread is hazardous to my wallet...I caved. From Russia with Love. Now to explain the $100 to the wifey..


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 28, 2020)

Just tell her what I tell mine -- $100 spent on tubes is $100 not spent on phone sex.


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> *Another person got 1578 tube this afternoon.
> 
> His impression.
> 
> ...


There's so many 1578 tubes out there hard to tell which ones to look for? Are these legit 1578? Do they have to have 1578 stamped on them?


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 28, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> There's so many 1578 tubes out there hard to tell which ones to look for? Are these legit 1578? Do they have to have 1578 stamped on them?


This is from someone else

I have had older ones and ones with no 1578 etched in the glass. Not as good so far.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/shootout-of-nos-6sn7-tubes.30637/page-3


It will be safe to order one from the dealer that I got.

In addition he ship very fast.

If you order from other dealer, it may take more than 6 weeks to get it.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 28, 2020)

Here's a guide I use...


----------



## JKDJedi (May 29, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Here's a guide I use...


Your a lifesaver...I can sleep tonight..


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Dammit....now I'm craving another Russian made tube .  I'm super curious now about these as @Paladin79 shares the same excitement about these tubes. To be or not to be....
> 
> Edit: this thread is hazardous to my wallet...I caved. From Russia with Love. Now to explain the $100 to the wifey..


LOL it looks like you got your answer, the photos are not the best but those should be legit as best I can tell. A lot of the remarked ones have the proper characteristics, it just makes them easier to sell when there is a 1578 stamped on them. Hopefully you get the real deal, I know of folks who buy some of these and get one good one and one that was obviously marked 1578 but did not have the right criteria, and did not sound the same.


----------



## JKDJedi

They finally answered!


*Hi, I was going through some 6SN7’s a while back and I found that tube with some other Sylvania tubes. I don’t remember where or when I got it. Everything about that tube is exactly the same as all the other Sylvania N7’s I have, mica wafers, internal construction etc. except it has grey plates. It’s definitely a Sylvania and it dates 1951.
They must have done it for a very short while because I have other 2 hole types dating 1951 and they are black.
A great collector tube. Thanks again.
Best regards,
Doug*


----------



## Paladin79 (May 29, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> They finally answered!
> 
> 
> *Hi, I was going through some 6SN7’s a while back and I found that tube with some other Sylvania tubes. I don’t remember where or when I got it. Everything about that tube is exactly the same as all the other Sylvania N7’s I have, mica wafers, internal construction etc. except it has grey plates. It’s definitely a Sylvania and it dates 1951.
> ...


I went through some of my Sylvanias but have not found a match yet. My 1578’s include matched pairs from 63, 69,73, and 86, all with the correct elements. All kinds of stamping and lack thereof. The 1963 is my favorite followed by the 1969's. The mids are nearly overpowering on some of the versions from the 70's and 80's IMHO. It makes them distinctive and easy to spot and maybe that is why this tube really jumps out at people compared to listening to a bunch of RCA's, or Sylvanias, or Tung Sols. The 63 to me has a more balanced sound over the whole spectrum once again IMHO.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I went through some of my Sylvanias but have not found a match yet. My 1578’s include matched pairs from 63, 69,73, and 86, all with the correct elements. All kinds of stamping and lack thereof.


Nice collection there. Very nice.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 29, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Nice collection there. Very nice.


I have some at work for employees to listen to as well and a Tung Sol 5998. My employees constantly want to hear  the amp I designed before they ship out to friends so the 63 Melz and Tung Sol are the baselines they use. It is a long wait but I can get the 63's at a very good price if I buy in volume but when you are buying capacitors that are $100 each and expensive transformers, and wire that is $60 a foot,  it is a little tough to invest in a lot more tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I have some at work for employees to listen to as well and a Tung Sol 5998. My employees constantly want to hear I designed before they ship out to friends so the 63 Melz and Tung Sol are the baselines they use. It is a long wait but I can get the 63's at a very good price if I buy in volume but when you are buying capacitors that are $100 each and expensive transformers, and wire that is $60 a foot,  it is a little tough to invest in a lot more tubes.


When my valve arrives I'll pair it with the 5998 first roll session. Excited.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> When my valve arrives I'll pair it with the 5998 first roll session. Excited.


Which amp?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Which amp?


I only own one dude... Not a high roller like the rest of you guys here


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I only own one dude... Not a high roller like the rest of you guys here


lol the Darkvoice, I should have checked the other thread. You will have some very nice tubes for that amp though. I pay very little for equipment and tubes but then I have made my own cables, amps, modified headphones, built my own equipment racks, and have done plenty of DIY electronics just to save a buck here and there. People who have sent me tubes and quality scotch and such know they can call on me and I will help them out. The exception is @bcowen, I should be way on the plus side with him.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 29, 2020)

Someone recommend Telefuknen 6sn7 but I found it is listed at 1,600$ from Italy.


I am done for shoot out.

05-29-2020 10:11am
shkong78..... when you get a chance, i strongly recommend the Telefunken 6sn7. With all the characteristics you described and your listening styles the Telefunken might be your cup of tea!

here is my lists of 6sn7 in particular order:

telefunken 6h8c 6sn7
GEC 1988 Metal base 6sn7
Amperex miniwatts ecc32
tungsol Round plates
Tungsol 6f8g Round plates w/adaptor
Sylvania metal base
Kenrad black Round plate
Metz Russian

Hands down the telefunken 6h8c my go-to for 6sn7


Thanks for your recommendation.

But there is no best thing for everybody.

It will depend on system and personal taste.

Also some audio gadgets are overpriced with hype or due to law of diminishing return.
Someone recommend Telefuknen 6sn7 but I found it is listed at 1,600$ from Italy.

I am done for shoot out.


I have more than enough 6sn7 (18 different kinds total 80 tubes) .

Thus I am going to stop purchase of more 6sn7 tubes.

Since my speakers with plasma tweeter and Dave and HMS is on the neutral or somewhat analytical side ( not warm or bloated) , my preference without considering cost is

1. 1578 Melz
2. TS bgrp
3. Syl vt231
4. Kenrad vt231 bg
5. Raytheon vt231
6. RCA vt231 gray bottle
7 6n8s made in 1978
8. Syl 1952 "Bad boy" three hole.
9 Syl 6sn7w brown base 
10 Syl gtb tall bottle made in 1955
11 RCA gray bottle
12 Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z ( New production)
14.. CBS/Hytron made in 50's
15,Tungsol gtb tall bottle made in 1950’s
16. Amperex GTB 
17. New production 6n8s ( stock tube of Schitt Freya)
18. New production Tungsol GTB


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> Someone recommend Telefuknen 6sn7 but I found it is listed at 1,600$ from Italy.
> 
> 
> I am done for shoot out.
> ...


And those are just the ones that we know about, the history behind said tubes are just as facinating, to me anyway. Nice collection.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> And those are just the ones that we know about, the history behind said tubes are just as facinating, to me anyway. Nice collection.


My problem with such things is buyer expectation. You have heard what others think or how much something costs and to me that can really affect how you might rate a tube. Another factor is equipment choice, I have had eight tubes used in a blind challenge that were used as buffers in a pre-amp, in hybrid amps, etc.  Can you pick that tube you like so well and describe in such detail when you hear it with seven other tubes and some may be better, some worse?  What headphones, what speakers? What music choices?  Are you A/B testing or are you going from memory?  I know of two people who can pick the same tube consistently when offered eight different 6sn7's for blind listening. Eliminate cost and brand and suddenly less expensive tubes can do very well and if you re-read an evaluation will it be anywhere close to the same as when you received a tube that was thought to be wonderful and was uber expensive.


----------



## jaboki

thomaskong78 said:


> Someone recommend Telefuknen 6sn7 but I found it is listed at 1,600$ from Italy.
> 
> 
> I am done for shoot out.
> ...



Is this the 1578 you used? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pa...-audiophile-6H8S-6SN7-Metal-base/273874731266

Just double checking before trying it out.


----------



## thomaskong78

jaboki said:


> Is this the 1578 you used? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pa...-audiophile-6H8S-6SN7-Metal-base/273874731266
> 
> Just double checking before trying it out.


Yes I ordered new tube from above link.

One of tube need more than 20 minutes warmup before some high frequency noise is gone..

After playing one hour it seems to be fine

It is better to choose 6sn7 tube based upon what you want to improve.


The advantage of 1578 is nice timber,  bass, decay and widest and deepest soundstage, but it can sound closed in if your system is on the warm side.

If you want to go for utmost  transparency and details, then you had better get Sylvania vt231.

If you want lush and warm sound, then go for RCA vt231 grey bottle.

Just my 2 cent.


----------



## jaboki

thomaskong78 said:


> Yes I ordered new tube from above link.
> 
> One of tube need more than 20 minutes warmup before some high frequency noise is gone..
> 
> ...



Thank you for your feedback!

What stores do you recommend to get the Sylvania/RCA? I just recently picked up a tube amp, and starting to learn all of this.


----------



## thomaskong78

jaboki said:


> Thank you for your feedback!
> 
> What stores do you recommend to get the Sylvania/RCA? I just recently picked up a tube amp, and starting to learn all of this.



It could be hit or miss to order from Ebay.

It is better to order from dealer with good feedback and return offer.

This one may be fine

First you have to decide whether to go for details or lush and warm sound.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Sylvan...101686?hash=item340f5dc036:g:I28AAOSw8ZhdNUb1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-RCA-VT...906335?hash=item34279d18df:g:qDoAAOSwh5petNzZ


----------



## jaboki

thomaskong78 said:


> It could be hit or miss to order from Ebay.
> 
> It is better to order from dealer with good feedback and return offer.
> 
> ...


I definitely want something that's lush > warm > details.

Thank you for the quick responses by the way.


----------



## Paladin79

Check out Lowtechelec on Etsy for tubes, I have found him to be honest and reliable and he checks tubes in a Cary amp (when feasible) as well as a tube tester. He does not deal in many NOS but generally has a great selection of 6SN7’s.


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 29, 2020)

Someone is very happy with 1578.

But I have a problem with one of tube.

KR is dead quiet, but 1578 has  hum and high frequency noise until 20 minutes warmup.

I am going to wait few more days before I contact the dealer.

Do I need to re solder it?

*big_greg*
2,397 posts
05-29-2020 4:35pm
I bought a pair of the Melz 1578 from the seller _@shkong78_ recommended for my Modwright LS 100. I played them for a while last night and they sounded really good right out of the box (I had the LS 100 in HTBP mode for about an hour to get them warmed up, watching TV).

They are detailed, dynamic, and the bass is prominent with a texture that I have not heard in my system before. Pithy might be a good description of the sound of the bass. The soundstage was expanded and there seemed to be more separation between the instruments. I can't wait for them to break in a little more.

They were one of the best bang for the buck upgrades I've made to my system.  I've used Shuguang CV-181, the stock Tung-Sol tubes, Sylvania Chrome Domes, Sylvania 6SN7GTA "tall boys", and Sophia Electric clear and blue tubes.  The 1578s were the best by far.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> Someone is very happy with 1578.
> 
> But I have a problem with one of tube.
> 
> ...


I explained about issues unless the pins are re-soldered, the Melz and Fotons can be very stable with help. A tube may sound fine at first but the older ones are especially susceptible.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> *Another person got 1578 tube this afternoon.
> 
> His impression.
> 
> ...



Unless I'm missing something (which is more possible than not ) you still lack a 1950's Foton 6N8S. Not suggesting the 70's ones you have are anything but good, but you really should try the Fotons. The ribbed plate (anode) versions are best ('51 through '55 and some '56's), but the non-ribbed '56's through '59's are darn close and usually much less expensive.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Just tell her what I tell mine -- $100 spent on tubes is $100 not spent on phone sex.



Or Barbies.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Here's a guide I use...



This is what I've always used too.  Can't remember who put this photo together (wasn't me) but thanks to him for doing it.


----------



## attmci

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383567216972


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 29, 2020)

I am listening to "The Wall" .

I am happy that Line Magnetic 508 fitted with 1578 can drive my speaker Lansche 4.1 with such full force and control of bass.

It also give widest and deepest soundstage with holographic layering in my listening room so far.

If you are bass freak or soundstage mania, then you shall try 1578 Melz


Since having 1578 in my 2 channel system, I spend less time on headphones..

Headphones could not match dynamics and excitement of 2 channel system, although I have decent headphones, Raal Sr1a, Stax009s and HD 800s.


----------



## LoryWiv

LoryWiv said:


> Yikes, I did order a pair of Brimar's from Menifee, forgot they were same folks as BangyBang which I knew to steer clear of. The photos and test results looked favorable and price reasonable. I should have them in 4-5 days and will report if concerns.


The Brimars arrived and they are flawless with clean pins, no appreciable noise floor or microphonics. Arrived just as advertised. Sound is an interesting blend of lush / warm with rich but organic sounding mids. Female vocals in particular excel, rich and soaring but free of sibilance Treble extension and bass tightness are a bit less than I'd like but the good news on bass is no bleed, and instrument layering is very good. I've paired them with Tung-Sol 7236 powers which are quite neutral, and will continue to assess. But as for Menifee Audio, no complaints from me.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This is what I've always used too.  Can't remember who put this photo together (wasn't me) but thanks to him for doing it.


It has always been what I used myself and it did take some time but I got to know some Russians I can rely on. When testing the 1578's they would often offer the ones with obvious noise issues at a lower price or include them at no charge. I got several 1578's free or at little cost after replacing the solder in the pins. They would only test them for a short time so others would develop issues as they were used. You just have to remember that some are forty years old and others are 60 or more years old before the solder started breaking down as is the case with Fotons from the 50's.There are some who just re-flow that old solder but I prefer to remove it, use fresh rosin and a higher grade solder with silver content so I only have to do the process once and never have to concern myself with a noisy tube in my system. In all honesty I have not run into the solder issues with tubes from RCA, Sylvania, Tung Sol etc. from the same time periods.

 As far as hearing what one tube is like compared to another, it has never been about speakers compared to headphones for me, it has been about how can I isolate that tube sound and give the signal the purest path I can build so the differences are more obvious. This process also shows the weakness of many tubes, noise is more obvious. I personally cannot hear it as well if I stick two tubes or four tubes in an integrated amp or pre-amp or when adding a power amp to the chain. I get calls about once a week from folks all over the country wanting to tell me about their $50k or $100k or $250k system. My favorite was from a guy who had $250k in a two channel system, until the divorce lol. Many of my local friends are like that and they might spend $1,000 to $2,000 on a tube but in various systems could not tell me in blind listening if they had a Brimar, or GEC, or Marconi they were listening to so I sought to remedy that. To me there is also what an individual hears and what that individual likes. One person might prefer a 1578, another a RPBG Tung Sol in blind listening. Take fifty people who listen to tubes a lot and the consensus might be a black glass Ken-Rad VT231 or an RCA grey glass in blind listening. It also gets interesting when you stay inside a brand and have folks try to tell you which tube is the Bad Boy out of a group of Sylvania tubes, or the BGRP among Tung Sols. A $10 tube compared to a $250 tube because someone thought of a catchy name people might remember, or wow the tubes are going for $250 each, they must be worth it!


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> The Brimars arrived and they are flawless with clean pins, no appreciable noise floor or microphonics. Arrived just as advertised. Sound is an interesting blend of lush / warm with rich but organic sounding mids. Female vocals in particular excel, rich and soaring but free of sibilance Treble extension and bass tightness are a bit less than I'd like but the good news on bass is no bleed, and instrument layering is very good. I've paired them with Tung-Sol 7236 powers which are quite neutral, and will continue to assess. But as for Menifee Audio, no complaints from me.



Glad to hear you had a good experience!  The price was quite reasonable for those particular tubes, and while that's a departure from the normal Menifee approach there's certainly nothing wrong with that.  Perhaps they are changing their ways, or one can at least hope.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> My problem with such things is buyer expectation. You have heard what others think or how much something costs and to me that can really affect how you might rate a tube. Another factor is equipment choice, I have had eight tubes used in a blind challenge that were used as buffers in a pre-amp, in hybrid amps, etc.  Can you pick that tube you like so well and describe in such detail when you hear it with seven other tubes and some may be better, some worse?  What headphones, what speakers? What music choices?  Are you A/B testing or are you going from memory?  I know of two people who can pick the same tube consistently when offered eight different 6sn7's for blind listening. Eliminate cost and brand and suddenly less expensive tubes can do very well and if you re-read an evaluation will it be anywhere close to the same as when you received a tube that was thought to be wonderful and was uber expensive.


 With one of my headphones, you really have to concentrate to hear differences in preamp, the other...right away, no quess work. So yeah, I can see how that plays out. Lot of fun.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 30, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> With one of my headphones, you really have to concentrate to hear differences in preamp, the other...right away, no quess work. So yeah, I can see how that plays out. Lot of fun.


Now imagine a fairly simple circuit in four identical revealing headphone amps, and you switch back and forth between them using the same music. Same headphones, in this case Sennheiser 800's, then as you get down to your two favorite tubes, you just switch between those two. Quality switch boxes are used, each amp is as identical as I can make them and built for those headphones.

Twenty-five criteria are generally used and the music exhibits each of those criteria so you know you are listening for sound stage, or decay or bass or whatever. Then you score each of the criteria and compare just that difference between the tubes. 52 tubes are involved, four at a time. At the end you can even take your top six or eight scores, and really concentrate on those tubes. You do not know till after the test which tube is which. Top score is 100 and that top tube chosen by 50 people could be a $20 tube or a $200 tube. Price, brand,previous opinions all go out the window.I have been through similar tests on equipment that could take 8-10 hours, this will be over a weekend for obvious reasons and currently it stands at four people listening at a time but with more headphones, the splitter setup is not too tough to do.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Now imagine a fairly simple circuit in four identical revealing headphone amps, and you switch back and forth between them using the same music. Same headphones, in this case Sennheiser 800's, then as you get down to your two favorite tubes, you just switch between those two. Quality switch boxes are used, each amp is as identical as I can make them and built for those headphones.
> 
> Twenty-five criteria are generally used and the music exhibits each of those criteria so you know you are listening for sound stage, or decay or bass or whatever. Then you score each of the criteria and compare just that difference between the tubes. 52 tubes are involved, four at a time. At the end you can even take your top six or eight scores, and really concentrate on those tubes. You do not know till after the test which tube is which. Top score is 100 and that top tube chosen by 50 people could be a $20 tube or a $200 tube. Price, brand,previous opinions all go out the window.I have been through similar tests on equipment that could take 8-10 hours, this will be over a weekend for obvious reasons and currently it stands at four people listening at a time but with more headphones, the splitter setup is not too tough to do.


It'd be interesting to see the results of that test. Maybe a cool little documentary to post on YouTube.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> It'd be interesting to see the results of that test. Maybe a cool little documentary to post on YouTube.


It is a group thing and not exactly mine to share. I can tell you in PM why the music cannot be shared I have a relatively small part to play. I know @sam6550a is an engineer and if I showed him a bit of my schematic he would probably get it and understand. If I sent him a loaner amp, he would really get it lol. One of the best descriptions is tubes that used to sound 60/40 difference now sound 100/50 when compared. A gentleman here provided that info and I am going from memory.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> It is a group thing and not exactly mine to share. I can tell you in PM why the music cannot be shared I have a relatively small part to play. I know @sam6550a is an engineer and if I showed him a bit of my schematic he would probably get it and understand. If I sent him a loaner amp, he would really get it lol. One of the best descriptions is tubes that used to sound 60/40 difference now sound 100/50 when compared. A gentleman here provided that info and I am going from memory.


 Music is something we use to listen to our tubes..lol. was this a test on the Sound Of Music or just the tubes in general? It'd be interesting to know how the tubes compared in that test. You could mute the music.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 30, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Music is something we use to listen to our tubes..lol. was this a test on the Sound Of Music or just the tubes in general? It'd be interesting to know how the tubes compared in that test. You could mute the music.


The virus has delayed testing. The music just helps demonstrate parts of the sound spectrum. I am just saying I keep being asked for a copy of the test music and that will not happen, a ranking of the tubes I should be able to provide. In the last couple years I have been able to get one friend in as a listener. She has the ability to tell me when she hears OFC wire compared to silver plated, compared to litz, compared to solid silver etc. In a DAC test she was the only person whose answers matched the combined average of a 50 person group and her abilities with tubes is pretty scary lol. Another person with remarkable abilities is @bcowen and while he and I kid each other, I say this quite seriously.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> It is a group thing and not exactly mine to share. I can tell you in PM why the music cannot be shared I have a relatively small part to play. I know @sam6550a is an engineer and if I showed him a bit of my schematic he would probably get it and understand. If I sent him a loaner amp, he would really get it lol. One of the best descriptions is tubes that used to sound 60/40 difference now sound 100/50 when compared. A gentleman here provided that info and I am going from memory.


Thank you for the compliment Tom, I really would like to see the schematic!


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Thank you for the compliment Tom, I really would like to see the schematic!


I will PM you part of it when I get a chance. Enough so you get the idea lol.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 30, 2020)

Here's the Readers Digest version of the schematic...

SIGNAL ------> TUBES  ------>  EARS ------> AUDIO NIRVANA


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Here's the Readers Digest version of the schematic...
> 
> SIGNAL ------> TUBES  ------>  EARS ------> AUDIO NIRVANA


Does the amp perhaps reveal tube sound? You own a lot of 6sn7's


----------



## JKDJedi

sam6550a said:


> Thank you for the compliment Tom, I really would like to see the schematic!


J


Paladin79 said:


> Does the amp perhaps reveal tube sound? You own a lot of 6sn7's


Misguided missle alert.... How does an amp not reveal tube sound when the sound comes from the tubes? O.o or are they just ornaments on top of transformers? Hmmm Inquiring minds want to know...


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> J
> 
> Misguided missle alert.... How does an amp not reveal tube sound when the sound comes from the tubes? O.o or are they just ornaments on top of transformers? Hmmm Inquiring minds want to know...


Some do a better job of it than others. Some are actually hybrid, part tube, part solid state. Some are designed to sound more like solid state. There are some in which the tubes are more for show IMHO, those usually come from off shore. Some OTL amps are made to work with low impedance headphones as well as high impedance. There are a lot of variables. Another aspect is just how much of the design is made for a specific purpose. You can buy a receiver that has a cheap headphone out circuit, or you can buy a tuner, amp, pre-amp, and headphone amp as separate pieces. There are also integrated amps. There are also classes of amps, class A is not efficient, puts out a lot of heat, gets expensive to build etc. I do class A, it is what I prefer.


----------



## Ripper2860

There's a lot of stuff that can come between the tubes and sound.  I can tell you that Valhalla 2, while a nice OTL amp, did not come close to revealing the true sound of my tubes like this amp.  Of course, there's a bit more between the tube and sound with a hybrid.

Even the same tubes I use in VH2 (12AU7) when used in this amp with an adapter sound much nicer.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Some do a better job of it than others. Some are actually hybrid, part tube, part solid state. Some are designed to sound more like solid state. There are some in which the tubes are more for show IMHO, those usually come from off shore. Some OTL amps are made to work with low impedance headphones as well as high impedance. There are a lot of variables. Another aspect is just how much of the design is made for a specific purpose. You can buy a receiver that has a cheap headphone out circuit, or you can buy a tuner, amp, pre-amp, and headphone amp as separate pieces. There are also integrated amps. There are also classes of amps, class A is not efficient, puts out a lot of heat, gets expensive to build etc. I do class A, it is what I prefer.


I see said the blind man....as he spat into the wind ....it's all coming back to me. Valid point. Wondering what type of amp I have now. And what a good upgrade would be. To get an honest pure sound of the tubes. You wonder sometimes, is this tube overkill for my amp?


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 30, 2020)

The Darkvoice is an OTL amp -- not hybrid.  OTL amps are not all the same, however.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I see said the blind man....as he spat into the wind ....it's all coming back to me. Valid point. Wondering what type of amp I have now. And what a good upgrade would be. To get an honest pure sound of the tubes. You wonder sometimes, is this tube overkill for my amp?


I own in excess of 500 6sn7's, I have a collection of GE tubes that would boggle the mind, I keep them just to annoy @bcowen . It is not happening much right now but when I get a chance to get out and hear a lot of tube gear and there are some pieces in which changing tubes affects little IMHO. Either that or the difference is so slight, I would not pay the extra money. I build my own headphone cables and have access to most anything made. There are times where the cost just does not justify the effect.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I own in excess of 500 6sn7's, I have a collection of GE tubes that would boggle the mind, I keep them just to annoy @bcowen . It is not happening much right now but when I get a chance to get out and hear a lot of tube gear and there are some pieces in which changing tubes affects little IMHO. Either that or the difference is so slight, I would not pay the extra money. I build my own headphone cables and have access to most anything made. There are times where the cost just does not justify the effect.


L M F A O .. @bcowen and GE.   Perfect Combination ...


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 30, 2020)

I have an RCA and GE 6AS7GA tube on the way (it was a bundle).  I will be sure to taunt @bcowen by telling him the GE is superior to the Tung-Sol and Cetron power tubes.

BTW - the best tube-related  investment I've made is the $20 I slipped Bill's mail carrier to 'lose' his TS 5998.  😄


----------



## Paladin79 (May 30, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> L M F A O .. @bcowen and GE.   Perfect Combination ...


Bill and I had this bet you may or may not know about. The bet was for a steak dinner and large bottle of wine. Bill bet he could pick out a GE tube in a blind study, and we agreed it had to be chosen from eight tubes. I sent him some very nice tubes and I would say he identified at least half of them correctly. I bought and listened to a lot of GE tubes just trying to find the one that sounded best. Bill was a very good sport and few people would have the nerve to take on such a challenge. He came very very close, it got down to choosing between two tubes and he picked the wrong one. I may have spent $500 and a couple weekends working on that challenge, to win a steak dinner lol. Because of his willingness and sportsmanship, I did send him the same vintage bottle of Italian wine I enjoyed as well as a bottle of white wine for his wife. Jason from Schiit heard us talking about it and wanted to do a tube challenge so I sent him eight concealed tubes. No GE though, more top tier tubes. Because Saga's were used, few could tell the tubes apart much, so that got me thinking of a better way to hear tube differences so I designed my own amp for that purpose. I sealed the tubes in PVC, and four of them are out with a loner amp right now. To be honest, I am not sure I could easily remove them if I wanted to.  

Bill listened to the tubes in a Schiit Lyr 3 as I recall, I could maybe tell a Melz from a Foton in it on a good day so that made what he did all the more impressive.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I have an RCA and GE 6AS7GA tube on the way (it was a bundle).  I will be sure to taunt @bcowen by telling him the GE is superior to the Tung-Sol and Cetron power tubes.
> 
> BTW - the best tube-related  investment I've made is the $20 I slipped Bill's mail carrier to 'lose' his TS 5998.  😄


ROFL!!


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 31, 2020)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/QUAD-FOUR-Matched-Balanced-Russian-6N8S-6SN7-double-triode-TUBE-NEW-NOS/312402083888?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



After I get quad of them last week, I was  really surprised at nice bass, wide soundstage and sweet treble.

Thus I had ordered quad more of them.

I played them for testing again after getting another quad.

All of them sound good without hum or high frequency noise not like 1578 Melz.

Of course 1578 gve more implosive bass with even wider soundstage.


But they are excellent value at 46$ including tax on quad.

Do most  Russian tube have excellent bass?

I am just curious.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I own in excess of 500 6sn7's, I have a collection of GE tubes that would boggle the mind, I keep them just to annoy @bcowen . It is not happening much right now but when I get a chance to get out and hear a lot of tube gear and there are some pieces in which changing tubes affects little IMHO. Either that or the difference is so slight, I would not pay the extra money. I build my own headphone cables and have access to most anything made. There are times where the cost just does not justify the effect.



It all makes perfect sense now.  You design an amp using GE tubes, and once you get it to where it sounds good, the GE's come out and plugging in ANY other tube makes the amp spectacular.  Pretty ingenious!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I have an RCA and GE 6AS7GA tube on the way (it was a bundle).  I will be sure to taunt @bcowen by telling him the GE is superior to the Tung-Sol and Cetron power tubes.
> 
> BTW - the best tube-related  investment I've made is the $20 I slipped Bill's mail carrier to 'lose' his TS 5998.  😄



I'm betting the RCA you get was made by GE.  Or is that hoping? 

I just got a Chatham 6080 for cheap.  So there.  And the seller agreed to ship it FedEx. It'll take more than $20 to bribe the FedEx guy.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I see said the blind man....as he spat into the wind ....it's all coming back to me. Valid point. Wondering what type of amp I have now. And what a good upgrade would be. To get an honest pure sound of the tubes. You wonder sometimes, is this tube overkill for my amp?


I may grab one of the amps you own and work with it a bit. They use some decent components and wiring scheme but folks seem to be modifying them for a reason lol. There are things I would change and I only glanced inside one for an hour or so as I repaired one for a friend. I just listened enough to know it was working and did not spend any time with other tubes. 

 I may be able to get a loaner amp to you so you can hear what an OTL amp is capable of. In with the amp are four 6sn7's with their identities concealed, it would be a fun experiment for you to hear them in your amp and then in mine and then you would have a better idea if good tubes will help your amp.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It all makes perfect sense now.  You design an amp using GE tubes, and once you get it to where it sounds good, the GE's come out and plugging in ANY other tube makes the amp spectacular.  Pretty ingenious!


I have to do something with all those GE tubes, even Finnegan will not play with them unless I lay them on a bed of catnip. I used some in headphone stands but I have been too busy to make many of them lately. I wired them so they glowed like working tubes. I also found a photo showing a Melz or Foton tube during the process of solder replacement, in case any of you consider trying this at home please ask for instructions first lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have to do something with all those GE tubes, even Finnegan will not play with them unless I lay them on a bed of catnip. I used some in headphone stands but I have been too busy to make many of them lately. I wired them so they glowed like working tubes. I also found a photo showing a Melz or Foton tube during the process of solder replacement, in case any of you consider trying this at home please ask for instructions first lol.



I suppose I could do a short video of *me* resoldering pins.  Sometimes seeing how _*not*_ to do something properly can be more instructive than seeing _how_ to do it properly.  Just trying to help, as usual.  

And Finnegan continues to impress with his elevated level of cat sense.  I predict @Ripper2860 will be looking for a Finnegan of his own in the near future.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I suppose I could do a short video of *me* resoldering pins.  Sometimes seeing how _*not*_ to do something properly can be more instructive than seeing _how_ to do it properly.  Just trying to help, as usual.
> 
> And Finnegan continues to impress with his elevated level of cat sense.  I predict @Ripper2860 will be looking for a Finnegan of his own in the near future.


In an effort to not drill holes in the front of this wonderful honey locust I am going to mount resistor ladder pots on either side of the 6sn7 that will go into this amp. This will allow an extremely short run of high quality wire to the tube grid. That is 1/8 inch patinated copper, it makes for an excellent ground system as well as adding about two pounds of weight that cut down on microphonics. I may not be able to run pairs of 6j5's but sometimes you just have to sacrifice functionality for looks.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> In an effort to not drill holes in the front of this wonderful honey locust I am going to mount resistor ladder pots on either side of the 6sn7 that will go into this amp. This will allow an extremely short run of high quality wire to the tube grid. That is 1/8 inch patinated copper, it makes for an excellent ground system as well as adding about two pounds of weight that cut down on microphonics. I may not be able to run pairs of 6j5's but sometimes you just have to sacrifice functionality for looks.



Now all you need to do is glue some googly-eyes on the pot knobs, and then mount this on the front of the case just under them.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Now all you need to do is glue some googly-eyes on the pot knobs, and then mount this on the front of the case just under them.


LMAO, um I intend to have my Cowen filter turned on until this project is complete, as much as I would just love to follow some of your suggestions.


----------



## Ripper2860

BTW -- there is an IGNORE USER feature...


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I may grab one of the amps you own and work with it a bit. They use some decent components and wiring scheme but folks seem to be modifying them for a reason lol. There are things I would change and I only glanced inside one for an hour or so as I repaired one for a friend. I just listened enough to know it was working and did not spend any time with other tubes.
> 
> I may be able to get a loaner amp to you so you can hear what an OTL amp is capable of. In with the amp are four 6sn7's with their identities concealed, it would be a fun experiment for you to hear them in your amp and then in mine and then you would have a better idea if good tubes will help your amp.


The amp I have is OTL, and the cult modding community (of this amp) found out you could lift the veil of this amp with a few tweaks inside. My first tubed amp. And I enjoy it over the iFi unit I have. The few amps I looked at are the Elise and La Figaro. (Looked..not heard... ) listening to a custom tubed amp would be a delight. I've seen some of your amps and those amps are a work of art.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- there is an IGNORE USER feature...


L M F A O I was wondering about that last night...


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> The amp I have is OTL, and the cult modding community (of this amp) found out you could lift the veil of this amp with a few tweaks inside. My first tubed amp. And I enjoy it over the iFi unit I have. The few amps I looked at are the Elise and La Figaro. (Looked..not heard... ) listening to a custom tubed amp would be a delight. I've seen some of your amps and those amps are a work of art.


I have one that does not have a pre-amp out that is pretty basic in tulip poplar and ebony I will try to send. I did use some very good components though. The only thing I ask is that you pay shipping to the next person I suggest, in the U.S.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Now all you need to do is glue some googly-eyes on the pot knobs, and then mount this on the front of the case just under them.


Do you really want the meter upside down?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Do you really want the meter upside down?


Bill wants me to put a smiley face on the amp, the meter is the mouth. OMG I am starting to understand the guy! Time to change hobbies, maybe wine tasting, that sounds safe and Bill only buys the boxes anyway.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Bill wants me to put a smiley face on the amp, the meter is the mouth. OMG I am starting to understand the guy! Time to change hobbies, maybe wine tasting, that sounds safe and Bill only buys the boxes anyway.


I wondered if he listens to music while standing on his head. Sorry if I misinterpreted his desires.


----------



## Ripper2860

If you want to keep Bill occupied, ask him about automobile tires.  😄


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I wondered if he listens to music while standing on his head. Sorry if I misinterpreted his desires.


I would not put that past him, it might explain some things. The man has some ways about him that are just not right.


----------



## Ripper2860

sam6550a said:


> I wondered if he listens to music while standing on his head. Sorry if I misinterpreted his desires.



Bill can't afford tube dampers so he places his tube amps upside down on the stand.


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> If you want to keep Bill occupied, ask him about automobile tires.  😄


Has he re-tired?


----------



## Ripper2860

LOL!  Good one!  

He is, but he has not told his employer yet.  😀


----------



## attmci (May 31, 2020)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-vintage-Sylvania-Metal-Base-jan-chs-6SN7A-6sn7w-tube-6SN7GT/392818609428?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=01edf4d20822448ebc9f940c7b849b30&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=none&sd=392818609428&itm=392818609428&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&brand=SYLVANIA&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:be72cc62-a35a-11ea-a9e8-ea68f42b78c0|parentrq:6b897edf1720aaeece0514b4fff7dab8|iid:1

The MB Syl 6SN7W is one of the best US 6SN7 tubes. Highly recommended.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I wondered if he listens to music while standing on his head. Sorry if I misinterpreted his desires.



I have no desires.  Only stupid ideas.  But on the plus side, I have lots of them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would not put that past him, it might explain some things. The man has some ways about him that are just not right.



Some?


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Has he re-tired?



LOL!  I might be tomorrow morning after my boss sees my month-end numbers for May.  At minimum, I'll be stopping by a re-tail store...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Some?


Many? Most?
Listening to Art Pepper meets the rhythm section album.... The twin 6j5's I am running are working wonders, Sylvania ST's. Each channel is perfect, no cross talk. I own a lot of tubes but right now I am hard pressed to change these out. I feel every draw of the bow across a stand up bass.


----------



## jaboki

thomaskong78 said:


> It could be hit or miss to order from Ebay.
> 
> It is better to order from dealer with good feedback and return offer.
> 
> ...



I just got the RCA's and they are perfect! Thank you!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 6, 2020)

So I"m really digging the described "  a touch euphonic " sound of the JAN National Union tube,  question is (and not that I have the monies for it) would a Brimar CV1988 be a nice upgrade over the NU, or are they similar in sound character?


----------



## LoryWiv (Jun 6, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> So I"m really digging the described "  a touch euphonic " sound of the JAN National Union tube,  question is (and not that I have the monies for it) would a Brimar CV1988 be a nice upgrade over the NU, or are they similar in sound character?


I can't compare directly to answer your question but I have a Brimar 6SN7GT which is definitely euphonic: warm'ish, sweet mids and the instrument placement / layering is exceptional. What it lacks are that last bit of frequency extesnion and detail retrieval, but I think that's an expected trade-off for its euphonic character.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jun 6, 2020)

2 x MELZ 6N8S 6SN7 Metal Base Tubes | eBay


I got delivery of this 6n8s Melz tube made in 1953 about 3 hours ago.

It took six weeks of wait from Ukraine.

But it is worth the wait.

This is the most exciting 6sn7 tube that I had tried in my Line Magnetic 508 amp.

it sounds very dynamic with excellent details, wide and deep soundstage.

Compared with famed 1578 Melz ( I have two pairs made in 80 and one pair made in 83), 1578 give slightly more bass slam, even wider and deeper soundstage.

While 1578 has clean treble, it sound rather closed in and bass heavy, but this 68ns Melz tube made in 1953 give more lively treble and more details although its treble has slightly hard edge compared with 1578.

I am playing old rock. It seems that they are playing in front of me.

It is going to be interesting if I can compare this with Sylvania wgt metal base.

I have Sylvania wgt brown base which sounds similar to this 6n8s but 6sn8s give more dynamic sound.


This is a steal at 65$ including shipping for pair which cost one quarter of 1578.

I place an order of two more pairs of this.


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> 2 x MELZ 6N8S 6SN7 Metal Base Tubes | eBay
> 
> 
> I got delivery of this 6n8s Melz tube made in 1953 about 3 hours ago.
> ...


6 weeks ouch, think I got my Melz from the same guy. ok, 4 weeks to go then.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jun 7, 2020)

After 10 hours of listening to 6n8s made in 53, I am more impressed with it.

It sounds dynamic with nice air and details.

I am listening to "Hero" by Mariah Carey.

It sounds so delicious and nuanced through this tube that I am just happy.

It is kind of midway between 1578 and TS bgrp.

All Russian tubes that I had tried have better bass than even Kenrad vt231 which used to be called bass king of 6sn7.


The only drawback of this tube is it has some high frequency noise as well as 1578.

I had to try  re soldering pins.someday.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> After 10 hours of listening to 6n8s made in 53, I am more impressed with it.
> 
> It sounds dynamic with nice air and details.
> 
> ...



I think it is wonderful that you rate it between the tubes mentioned, you can save a lot of money since you are rating a what $12 tube above either the 1578 or TS bgrp, um except for the high frequency noise. My experience with that type of tube is that it is not helped much by re-soldering the pins. I do believe I sent one to @bcowen in our 6sn7 equivalent challenge and he rated it worse than a GE but each to their own I guess.   The one I sent had two of the three features of a 1578 even lol.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 7, 2020)

This is the Melz I sent, 1956.

I will have to give it a second listen. I removed it and the GE from the batch I sent Jason at Schiit as well as an Electro Harmonix that was also rated pretty low. The 56 Melz has the same ribbed plates as the 53, no holes in the plates.

I just popped it for another listen, there is indeed some noise in high frequencies, bass is ok, mids are nothing near what the 1578 is capable of. Bill found it to be torture to listen to it much and I get it now.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do believe I sent one to @bcowen in our 6sn7 equivalent challenge and he rated it worse than a GE but each to their own I guess.   The one I sent had two of the three features of a 1578 even lol.



Oh puhleeeeeeeeze.  The Melz you sent was brand new and had no time on it. No break-in, like the purest form of N in NOS you can get. Not to rekindle the break-in debate unnecessarily, but I haven't heard a new or never-used tube yet that doesn't benefit from at least a few hours of break-in time and signal.  And Russian-made tubes (be they Fotons, Melz, Reflectors, whatever) seem to benefit even more from break-in than most Euro and USA made tubes.  So there.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jun 7, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> This is the Melz I sent, 1956.
> 
> I will have to give it a second listen. I removed it and the GE from the batch I sent Jason at Schiit as well as an Electro Harmonix that was also rated pretty low. The 56 Melz has the same ribbed plates as the 53, no holes in the plates.


Evaluation of tube will depend on system  and personal taste.

My system is very revealing due to Dave and HMS as digital and Lansche 4.1 with plasma tweeter.

In addition Lansche has two active 10 inch woofers which go down to 20hz.

Another thing is that I also have two 18 inch Scaena carbon composite subwoofers, which can be connected on and off to Lansche 4.1 through digital equalization.

I do not claim that 6n8s sound better than 1578 or TS bgrp.

But to me 1578 sound slightly closed in with less treble details while TS bgrp lacks bass slam.


This 6n8s made in 53 goes midway between 1578 and TS.

Thus I enjoy this tube more than either 1578 or TS.

But I have to find way to reduce high frequency noise of this tube.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 7, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> Evaluation of tube will depend on system  and personal taste.
> 
> My system is very revealing due to Dave and HMS as digital and Lansche 4.1 with plasma tweeter.
> 
> ...


LOL oh I totally understand personal taste and you have listed the equipment used several times and I am familiar but equipment is also a matter of personal taste no matter of course. I only mentioned what you did about putting that tube between the other two, and you sort of repeated it. I think it is wonderful you like it, other than the noise.


bcowen said:


> Oh puhleeeeeeeeze.  The Melz you sent was brand new and had no time on it. No break-in, like the purest form of N in NOS you can get. Not to rekindle the break-in debate unnecessarily, but I haven't heard a new or never-used tube yet that doesn't benefit from at least a few hours of break-in time and signal.  And Russian-made tubes (be they Fotons, Melz, Reflectors, whatever) seem to benefit even more from break-in than most Euro and USA made tubes.  So there.


There were two melz, one was the 1578, so there. lol  I have the master list here you know. The 1578 did not have the 100 hours on it or whatever you were touting back then but it had been re-soldered.


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> Evaluation of tube will depend on system  and personal taste.
> 
> My system is very revealing due to Dave and HMS as digital and Lansche 4.1 with plasma tweeter.
> 
> ...


Tubes are hit or miss with many variables involved. It's a shame your nice amp couldn't get the most out of them nice tubes.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jun 7, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Tubes are hit or miss with many variables involved. It's a shame your nice amp couldn't get the most out of them nice tubes.


My  Lansche 4.1 has control of treble strength since plasma tweeter is also active one.

With 1578 I tip it up by one notch.

Even with that, I prefer other tubes like Sylvania, TS,  Raytheon vt231 and 6n8s made in 53 to 1578 for lady vocal.

But with TS bgrp, I have no other choice than using Scaena subwoofers to get enough slam.

With all Russina tubes and Kenrad vt231, I do not need subwoofers to get bass slam.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 7, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Tubes are hit or miss with many variables involved. It's a shame your nice amp couldn't get the most out of them nice tubes.


Pretty soon you will be able to judge an amp capable of exhibiting tube sound, and hear four of the better tubes Mr Cowen heard.In our challenge I made an attempt to send him a couple tubes that were not on the level of a Sylvania Bad Boy or Ken Rad black glass VT-231.

I own and have owned plenty of tube equipment but I prefer headphone amps and headphones for tube evaluation and added other devices for bass slam has never been my thing and I have designed and built speakers and sub-woofers.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Pretty soon you will be able to judge an amp capable of exhibiting tube sound, and hear four of the better tubes Mr Cowen heard.In our challenge I made an attempt to send him a couple tubes that were not on the level of a Sylvania Bad Boy or Ken Rad black glass VT-231.


I'm thinking the other guy got a knock off or something 😂 (made in China?)
I'm joking of course


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jun 7, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Pretty soon you will be able to judge an amp capable of exhibiting tube sound, and hear four of the better tubes Mr Cowen heard.In our challenge I made an attempt to send him a couple tubes that were not on the level of a Sylvania Bad Boy or Ken Rad black glass VT-231.


Among high end audiophile, Line Magnetic 508 or 805 had got excellent reputation.

I also keep Silbatone 300B Set fitted with We 300B made in 40's which is an exotic amplifier with silver foil output transformer.

But I usually play LM 508 due to more headroom (48 watts vs 8 watts) although my speaker is pretty sensitive ( official eff 99db/w, but i believe real eff is 95db/w still pretty high for non horn speaker).

I had gone through most of famous 6n7 except Telefuken and Sylvania wgt metal base ( I have Syl wgt brown base).

Now I am getting ideas of the pros and cons  of each tube.

No tube is perfect.

1578 has rather closed in treble although its treble is pure and clean.

TS has no bass slam compared with Kenrad vr231 and Russian tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 7, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I'm thinking the other guy got a knock off or something 😂 (made in China?)
> I'm joking of course


Other than the one PSVane tube I am not sure I own anything made in China, maybe Electro-Harmonix or is that Russian, I forget. Got to run, later.

Oh and I heard Line Magnetic with other amps as did my audiophile group, blind listening, no preconceived notions. Later


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> Evaluation of tube will depend on system  and personal taste.



Truer words have never been spoken.   

And that goes even further down to the component level.  As an example, I've rolled probably a dozen different tubes through my Cary DAC and like 60's Tungsram 6922's in it best (and I'm not a big fan of 6922's of _any_ make to boot, generally preferring a 6DJ8 in most cases). But I do NOT like the Tungsrams in either the Vali 2 or Lyr 3 -- the treble is just too forward and aggressive. To be fair, the Vali 2 and Lyr 3 are only used for headphone listening and the Cary DAC is only used in the big rig through regular loudspeakers, so the listening method also comes into play.  But a tube I like best in one component doesn't even make the list in a couple others.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Other than the one PSVane tube I am not sure I own anything made in China, maybe Electro-Harmonix or is that Russian, I forget. Got to run, later.
> 
> Oh and I heard Line Magnetic with other amps as did my audiophile group, blind listening, no preconceived notions. Later



I've only seen Electro-Harmonix branding on Russian-made tubes.  But probably some of your extensive GE stash was made in China.


----------



## Ripper2860

Perhaps the Chinese GE's are really 'GENERAL TSO' tubes with 'NERAL TSO' rubbed off.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Perhaps the Chinese GE's are really 'GENERAL TSO' tubes with 'NERAL TSO' rubbed off.


To PSVane or not to PSVane.....that is the question... #firstworldproblems


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Perhaps the Chinese GE's are really 'GENERAL TSO' tubes with 'NERAL TSO' rubbed off.



Coincidences are always funny.  The General even kinda sorta looks like @Paladin79 except for some differences.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Coincidences are always funny.  The General even kinda sorta looks like @Paladin79 except for some differences.


🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> To PSVane or not to PSVane.....that is the question... #firstworldproblems



The PSVane CV-181T Mk 2 is sure a nice partner with the Cetron 7236 in the Incubus.  Obviously can't comment on how it might sound in the DV though.  You have a TungSol 7236, right?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The PSVane CV-181T Mk 2 is sure a nice partner with the Cetron 7236 in the Incubus.  Obviously can't comment on how it might sound in the DV though.  You have a TungSol 7236, right?


And a Sylvania 7236... Don't double dare me!!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> And a Sylvania 7236... Don't double dare me!!


There will be one power tube with the Incubus you get next week but I cannot recall which one I included, maybe an ST RCA or a Russian winged C.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> There will be one power tube with the Incubus you get next week but I cannot recall which one I included, maybe an ST RCA or a Russian winged C.


O.o no GEC ? ☹️


----------



## bcowen (Jun 7, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> O.o no GEC ? ☹



And here all along you thought *I* was bad @Paladin79??


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And a Sylvania 7236... Don't double dare me!!



Man, you've already got a bunch of new 6J5's to listen to.  Quit hoarding.  That's my job.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> And here all along you thought *I* was bad @Paladin79??


🤣🤣🙂😉


----------



## Odin412

bcowen said:


> The PSVane CV-181T Mk 2 is sure a nice partner with the Cetron 7236 in the Incubus.  Obviously can't comment on how it might sound in the DV though.  You have a TungSol 7236, right?



I use the PSVane CV-181T Mk 2 in my Saga. Excellent tube.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> There will be one power tube with the Incubus you get next week but I cannot recall which one I included, maybe an ST RCA or a Russian winged C.



If it's the one you sent Al, it's both.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> If it's the one you sent Al, it's both.


It is getting harder and harder to recall which tubes went with which amp except for a 63 Melz and a Tung Sol 5998.



JKDJedi said:


> O.o no GEC ? ☹


There is only so much stuff I will do for free, lol and I know the one amp you have so you have proper tubes for an Incubus anyway lol. The amp is leaving a friend who owns a few 6sn7's and that is about it as I recall.

 I was saying earlier that I heard a Line Magnetic in blind listening with an audiophile group, it finished in the lower half of of those tested. It was not on the bottom though, and came out ahead of a few amps.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is getting harder and harder to recall which tubes went with which amp except for a 63 Melz and a Tung Sol 5998.
> 
> There is only so much stuff I will do for free, lol and I know the one amp you have so you have proper tubes for an Incubus anyway lol.



Man, somehow I feel slighted. I got the amp BYOT (Bring Your Own Tubes).  And I don't have very many.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 7, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Man, somehow I feel slighted. I got the amp BYOT (Bring Your Own Tubes).  And I don't have very many.


I was not about to send you innocent tubes to be fondled. I feel bad enough that I was an enabler and caused you to buy all those 6080 equivalents, I will probably get a reprimand letter from Tube Addicts Anonymous saying I am contributing to your addiction, or fetish, or whatever is wrong with you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was not about to send you innocent tube to be fondled. I feel bad enough that I was an enabler and caused you to buy all those 6080 equivalents, I will probably get a reprimand letter from Tube Addicts Anonymous saying I am contributing to your addiction, or fetish, or whatever is wrong with you.



Please don't feel bad. 6080's are cheap and I was getting bored with 6SN7's anyway. Now, about that 300B amp...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Please don't feel bad. 6080's are cheap and I was getting bored with 6SN7's anyway. Now, about that 300B amp...


Sorry but I believe I moved Ripper ahead of you for any future builds. First he would have to have a 300B amp and then I guess I could build you one, maybe, if I had to.

I am trying to listen to the 56 Melz 6H8C but this may not last too long before I roll in something else.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry but I believe I moved Ripper ahead of you for any future builds. First he would have to have a 300B amp and then I guess I could build you one, maybe, if I had to.
> 
> I am trying to listen to the 56 Melz 6H8C but this may not last too long before I roll in something else.



What?!?!?!  @Ripper2860 couldn't tell the difference between a 300B amp and a clock radio.  Sheeez.  Just for that I'm not copying any more of your stuff.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 7, 2020)

bcowen said:


> What?!?!?!  @Ripper2860 couldn't tell the difference between a 300B amp and a clock radio.  Sheeez.  Just for that I'm not copying any more of your stuff.


I believe I have the perfect gift now for the both of you, be sure to add a subwoofer to yours so you can get more bass slam.


----------



## Ripper2860

I already have a version of that.  It's labeled 'Tice Power Block'.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I already have a version of that.  It's labeled 'Tice Power Block'.



I'm guessing you neglected to add the Marigo dots in the correct locations though, didn't you?


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I believe I have the perfect gift now for the both of you, be sure to add a subwoofer to yours so you can get more bass slam.


Nice touch---a GE, @bcowen's favorite!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 8, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> Nice touch---a GE, @bcowen's favorite!


I know!!! Lol  

The man keeps me busy trying to come up with new ideas he can borrow.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I'm guessing you neglected to add the Marigo dots in the correct locations though, didn't you?



I strategically placed them in the site's CART and left them there.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know!!! Lol
> 
> The man keeps me busy trying to come up with new ideas he can borrow.



Well, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Except I'm not imitating, I'm copying.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 8, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
> 
> Except I'm not imitating, I'm copying.


Ok, the Pinnacle 6J5GT tubes arrived and the internal construction is identical to some Russian 6c2c's I removed from an adapter so I have a feeling they will sound about the same, once they burn in of course.



Same as these I imagine...https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6S2S-6J5-VT94-Soviet-Triode-6C2C-Tube-NOS-Lot-4pcs/372666381513?hash=item56c4a5b4c9:g:76EAAOSwXsVc0nOq


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Ok, the Pinnacle 6J5GT tubes arrived and the internal construction is identical to some Russian 6c2c's I removed from an adapter so I have a feeling they will sound about the same, once they burn in of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as these I imagine...https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6S2S-6J5-VT94-Soviet-Triode-6C2C-Tube-NOS-Lot-4pcs/372666381513?hash=item56c4a5b4c9:g:76EAAOSwXsVc0nOq



I'm thinking my(made in China) adapter is in quarantine, stuck an hour away from me for over a week  Well, looking forward to your thoughts on the Pinnacles!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'm thinking my(made in China) adapter is in quarantine, stuck an hour away from me for over a week  Well, looking forward to your thoughts on the Pinnacles!


They are decent sounding tubes for the price. I had been listening to the Russian version some and they have a good all around sound, plenty of bass for my likes, mids are good, highs are crisp and detailed. I like the sound stage of Sylvania a bit more. Listen closely for channel separation, cross talk is pretty much non existent. On a scale of ten I would rate the Sylvania Naughty Girls a 9 and these 6.5.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> They are decent sounding tubes for the price. I had been listening to the Russian version some and they have a good all around sound, plenty of bass for my likes, mids are good, highs are crisp and detailed. I like the sound stage of Sylvania a bit more. Listen closely for channel separation, cross talk is pretty much non existent. On a scale of ten I would rate the Sylvania Naughty Girls a 9 and these 6.5.


Yikes .. 6.5... that's the last time @bcowen takes any recommendations from me... 🤣
I saw these favorited over a lot of other tubes at another thread, that user must've been on crack.


----------



## DenverW

I would recommend a 7193 to 6sn7 as a fun adapter.  You can use it for 7193, cv6, and e1148 tubes, which are each 1/2 of a 6sn7. The tube pairs are pretty inexpensive, and I’ve found them to match pretty well with the best 6sn7 I’ve heard.  Also, it looks ridiculous and franken tubey.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Yikes .. 6.5... that's the last time @bcowen takes any recommendations from me... 🤣
> I saw these favorited over a lot of other tubes at another thread, that user must've been on crack.


LOL everything is relative and when you ask for an opinion you get an opinion. You might also think you have the best setup imaginable and then you hear something that impresses you more. There is an Incubus amp heading your way, it is as revealing as I can make it, try the tubes in there and compare them to that set of Sylvania's you have and form your own opinions. A better way to do it though is to get someone else to swap them back and forth, maybe put a cardboard box over them so you do not know which is in the amp at any given time. See if you can consistently pick out one set correctly and see which set you prefer. There are no wrong answers, maybe you will like the Pinnacles more. Be warned though, it takes a lot of listening to differentiate between certain decent tubes.

I am also sending you four tubes that Bill has heard, they are concealed so you will not know brand or approximate value. Rank those and I will tell you after the fact what you heard. Pick your absolute favorite of those four, have someone place a box over them once again and swap them around several times without you watching their selections. See if you can find your absolute favorite again, blind. It is not that easy.

I have only heard maybe a dozen different sets of 6j5's or 7A4's so there are plenty I have not heard.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Yikes .. 6.5... that's the last time @bcowen takes any recommendations from me... 🤣
> I saw these favorited over a lot of other tubes at another thread, that user must've been on crack.



No worries.  I rank the Pinnacles a solid 6.75.  

I've seen another Pinnacle-labeled 6J5 version on Ebay with a gray phenolic base. The seller's pictures were too limited to see any internal detail, but it's possible there's a Pinnacle out there made somewhere besides Russia that's an entirely different animal altogether.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am also sending you four tubes that Bill has heard, they are concealed so you will not know brand or approximate value. Rank those and I will tell you after the fact what you heard. Pick your absolute favorite of those four, have someone place a box over them once again and swap them around several times without you watching their selections. See if you can find your absolute favorite again, blind. It is not that easy.



Ahhhhh....fresh meat for the grinder.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> LOL everything is relative and when you ask for an opinion you get an opinion. You might also think you have the best setup imaginable and then you hear something that impresses you more. There is an Incubus amp heading your way, it is as revealing as I can make it, try the tubes in there and compare them to that set of Sylvania's you have and form your own opinions. A better way to do it though is to get someone else to swap them back and forth, maybe put a cardboard box over them so you do not know which is in the amp at any given time. See if you can consistently pick out one set correctly and see which set you prefer. There are no wrong answers, maybe you will like the Pinnacles more. Be warned though, it takes a lot of listening to differentiate between certain decent tubes.
> 
> I am also sending you four tubes that Bill has heard, they are concealed so you will not know brand or approximate value. Rank those and I will tell you after the fact what you heard. Pick your absolute favorite of those four, have someone place a box over them once again and swap them around several times without you watching their selections. See if you can find your absolute favorite again, blind. It is not that easy.
> 
> I have only heard maybe a dozen different sets of 6j5's or 7A4's so there are plenty I have not heard.


Gonna document the whole thing, wondering if I should post it here or on another thread. Thoughts?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Ahhhhh....fresh meat for the grinder.


Not everyone has your aural skills, Bill could most likely tell you what each of the concealed tubes are but he is unique, just like everybody else.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Not everyone has your aural skills, Bill could most likely tell you what each of the concealed tubes are but he is unique, just like everybody else.



Unique?  That's the nicest thing you've ever called me.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Unique?  That's the nicest thing you've ever called me.


I know, I must be getting mellow in my old age. 

Thanks for sending me those tubes though, I just happened to have to remove the same type from my adapter. I am not sure where I got the Russian version, you may have recommended them for all I know. 6.75 indeed!!! lol


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 9, 2020)

Bill is 'The Tube Whisperer'.  All tubes reveal themselves to him after...

Well, this is really not the place to discuss such things.


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill is 'The Tube Whisperer'.  All tubes reveal themselves to him after...
> 
> Well, this is really not the place to discuss such things.


How would you know?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Gonna document the whole thing, wondering if I should post it here or on another thread. Thoughts?


I would think as long as you are talking differences in 6sn7 tubes you are fine. That should certainly be on topic. Now if you are able to consistently tell one tube from another blind, I would not mention it to @bcowen, the man has a pretty fragile ego and he is likely to snap.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I would think as long as you are talking differences in 6sn7 tubes you are fine. That should certainly be on topic. Now if you are able to consistently tell one tube from another blind, I would not mention it to @bcowen, the man has a pretty fragile ego and he is likely to snap.


Lol...copy!! 🤣🤣


----------



## Ripper2860

sam6550a said:


> How would you know?



Bill's wife told me.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, this is really not the place to discuss such things.



Whew. After all these years you finally got _something_ right.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jun 13, 2020)

Third Shootout

1. National Union Black glass.

It was heard that National union did not make tube themselves but rebranded other tubes.

NU bg looks similar to either Kenrad bg or Tungsol bg.

its sounds similar to KR bg but with slightly less slam but slightly more treble extension.

i paid 120$ for this tube, It is not excellent value but worth its price overall.


2. Russian 6n8s metal base Melz made in 53

Most people talk about 1578 Melz.

But this one sounds nice with excellent bass, nice details, wide and deep soundstage.

Overall this give best performance for the cost (65$ per pair compared with 250$ per pair of 1578).

1578 sounds slightly more refined and dynamic while 6n8s made in 53 give slightly more detailed.

I had ordered four more pairs.


3. Amperex GTB

I had enjoyed Amperex 12Au7 tubes with neutral and round midrange.

Amperex may have house sound.

This Amperex gtb tube also sound round and refined midrange similar to RCA gray bottle.

It is a nice tube with Jazz.


4. CBS hytron gtb

This one sound lively with decent details and dynamics.

But compared with excellent vt231's this tube is one notch below in details and refinement.

I would rather you buy vt231's or Russian tubes than this.


5. RCA clear bottle made in 56

I paid only 22$ for pair of this.

But it was very good value for the cost.

Sometimes you can get a hit from Ebay dealer.

It sounds similar to RCA gray bottle but with more transparency.


6. Russian 6n8s black base made in 78

I paid 46$ for quad.

But it was excellent with nice bass, details, dynamics, wide and deep soundstage.

It lacks refinement compared with 1578.

I like this tube overall.








DetailsTransparenSpeedTonalityTreble ExTreble ClMi DynMac DynS. DepthS. widthNet costTotal ScTS bgrp9.59.51099.510989.5957593RCA vt231998.59.59.598.598.5108990.5KR vt231999108.59910998391.5RT vt231999998.599.5996590Syl vt10109.5810109.57.59910092.5Bad boy87.58.597.58.58.598.592158415788.58.59989.59.510.51010.525094S 181z88.5898.598.5898.512085RCA gr87.5897.588.59.591010584.5Syl Tall8.588.58888988.510882.5Syl Wgt999998.5988.58.54587.5Ts tall9998.5998.58.58.58.55487.5Amperex8.588.59.58.598.59997688Rca56999998.58.58892287Cbshy989.58.5988.598.58.56586.56n8s(78)8.598.598.58.59999.52388.56n8s(53)99999.5991099.56592NU bg9999.59998.58.5912089.5


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> Third Shootout
> 
> 1. National Union Black grass.
> 
> ...



Good info and I may have to revisit other Melz tubes. My group uses 25 criteria but it will be a while before 50 test subjects can assemble to go through the 52 tubes we have collected. We will also be using amps that show off strengths and weaknesses of tubes so the scores should vary a lot more IMHO. Covid 19 is really affecting our abilities to run such tests and I prefer using large groups. This goes back to the wisdom of crowds and Francis Galton. Basically the average of a group of individuals can be more accurate than the choice of any one individual in the group. Most of the audiophiles in my group are university related so they take a more scientific approach to such tests. These will also be blind tests so people will not know going in if there is a 1578 or a GEC or a Brimar or Mullard being tested. This eliminates expectation bias. I have heard of studies where the same wine was placed in two bottles, one marked $10, the other marked $5 and people would choose the more expensive wine as the best. Swap the labels and the opposite wine was chosen as best. Hand someone a tube that fetches $20 and another that goes for $2,000 and I imagine you would get similar results if they knew ahead of time which is which, blind testing eliminates such bias.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Good info and I may have to revisit other Melz tubes. My group uses 25 criteria but it will be a while before 50 test subjects can assemble to go through the 52 tubes we have collected. We will also be using amps that show off strengths and weaknesses of tubes so the scores should vary a lot more IMHO. Covid 19 is really affecting our abilities to run such tests and I prefer using large groups. This goes back to the wisdom of crowds and Francis Galton. Basically the average of a group of individuals can be more accurate than the choice of any one individual in the group. Most of the audiophiles in my group are university related so they take a more scientific approach to such tests. These will also be blind tests so people will not know going in if there is a 1578 or a GEC or a Brimar or Mullard being tested. This eliminates expectation bias. I have heard of studies where the same wine was placed in two bottles, one marked $10, the other marked $5 and people would choose the more expensive wine as the best. Swap the labels and the opposite wine was chosen as best. Hand someone a tube that fetches $20 and another that goes for $2,000 and I imagine you would get similar results if they knew ahead of time which is which, blind testing eliminates such bias.



Personally, I'd _always_ go for the $2000 GE.  But that's just me.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Personally, I'd _always_ go for the $2000 GE.  But that's just me.


Ok I will pack up five of them for you once I have received payment in my PayPal account.


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will pack up five of them for you once I have received payment in my PayPal account.


It will be better to send five tubes with 10k$ bill to Bill.

He may leave the will to pay you 10k$ after his death.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 13, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> It will be better to send five tubes with 10k$ bill to Bill.
> 
> He may leave the will to pay you 10k$ after his death.


I own a lot of GE's so I could try to pick out the best one to trick Bill with, I need to recover that money somehow, it is not like anyone would actually buy these tubes otherwise.

Oh and I did like your format Thomas, I just get vastly different results sending the same eight tubes to different people, generally though the grey glass RCA, black glass Ken-rad and Melz 1578 do rate pretty high. We will have the BGRP Tung Sol among the 52 tubes in our testing but I had no included it before because of cost. It required a lot of labor and expense to send out the tubes I did use.

One thing I should mention is Bill has one of the type amps we will use for tube comparison, as does Ripper, and soon JKDJedi will have a loaner. @bcowen would you say I am accurate in my description of the amp as showing the differences in 6sn7's?

Also I should mention that music we will be using was recorded specifically for showing off certain aspects of sound, in several cases the performance artists will be among the listeners. Imagine if you will, someone highly trained on the violin, who is used to hearing that sound live. Then you ask them to pick the most accurate sounding performance with various tubes. Many of the recordings were done by a grammy award winning audio engineer and he is a test subject as well. I will also mention that the average is supposed to be more accurate but we have one listener who had a perfect score on DAC's as they were chosen by the group. The average is not always more accurate than the individual but it was in 49 out of 50 subjects.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 13, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I own a lot of GE's so I could try to pick out the best one to trick Bill with, I need to recover that money somehow, it is not like anyone would actually buy these tubes otherwise.
> 
> Oh and I did like your format Thomas, I just get vastly different results sending the same eight tubes to different people, generally though the grey glass RCA, black glass Ken-rad and Melz 1578 do rate pretty high. We will have the BGRP Tung Sol among the 52 tubes in our testing but I had no included it before because of cost. It required a lot of labor and expense to send out the tubes I did use.
> 
> ...


Now I seem to recall a certain youtuber who claimed the GE was the Best Of the BEst... thinking he was on cocaine to be honest.


Paladin79 said:


> I own a lot of GE's so I could try to pick out the best one to trick Bill with, I need to recover that money somehow, it is not like anyone would actually buy these tubes otherwise.
> 
> Oh and I did like your format Thomas, I just get vastly different results sending the same eight tubes to different people, generally though the grey glass RCA, black glass Ken-rad and Melz 1578 do rate pretty high. We will have the BGRP Tung Sol among the 52 tubes in our testing but I had no included it before because of cost. It required a lot of labor and expense to send out the tubes I did use.
> 
> ...


Accuracy vs Colored Sound.... Did we open up a can of worms?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Now I seem to recall a certain youtuber who claimed the GE was the Best Of the BEst... thinking he was on cocaine to be honest.
> 
> Accuracy vs Colored Sound.... Did we open up a can of worms?


I am not sure I follow but tubes certainly do have a certain type of sound and if you can switch between them to judge bass, mids or whatever is not a bad thing. I do like to eliminate bias where possible. When you read about someone raving about a particular tube, and that tube costs $125 is it truly worth it. If I were to buy such a thing I would be expecting a lot from it just by review and associated price. Someone came up with a catchy name, Bad Boy and a tube you used to be able to buy for $15 is now worth $100 up. I have heard of Melz 1578's for a long time and certainly prefer some years to others, but they are rarely bought for less than $125, I tend to pay less because of the exchange rate between here and Russia.

Suppose a $20 Melz is chosen as the best sounding tube in a blind test, that would be wonderful and many people could enjoy such a tube at little cost but once again if you pay $20 for one tube and $125 for another, it is human nature to think the $125 tube must be better lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will pack up five of them for you once I have received payment in my PayPal account.



Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always sounds like a great deal until the stuff you don't mention, like the shipping cost.  What, $5k for bulk rate?  $10k for First Class?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 13, 2020)

I only buy good sounding tubes.  I can't help it if some of the more expensive ones just sound better.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always sounds like a great deal until the stuff you don't mention, like the shipping cost.  What, $5k for bulk rate?  $10k for First Class?


Ok I will do it like Amazon, free shipping!!! Two day delivery!!! Now the price per tube just changed but "free shipping" sounds great right?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 13, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I only buy good sounding tubes.  I can't help it if some of the more expensive ones just sound better.


Unfortunately I do not have the time or materials to send you eight tubes to compare blind. A fun test would be four $20 tubes of my choosing compared to four $125 and up tubes. I know @bcowen could name most of the tubes and he might choose a Frankie as well as a black glass Ken-rad as favored tubes.

In some of our testing we excluded some dacs and amps that exceeded $10,000 because all items were donated by group members and it is not a lot of fun to hear that you paid a large sum of money for a product and then rated it toward the bottom yourself or that is where the group rated it. We are not doing that with tubes but then only a few are in the $1,000 up price range. Rarity becomes a factor in pricing as well as sound I would think.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 13, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I own a lot of GE's so I could try to pick out the best one to trick Bill with, I need to recover that money somehow, it is not like anyone would actually buy these tubes otherwise.
> 
> Oh and I did like your format Thomas, I just get vastly different results sending the same eight tubes to different people, generally though the grey glass RCA, black glass Ken-rad and Melz 1578 do rate pretty high. We will have the BGRP Tung Sol among the 52 tubes in our testing but I had no included it before because of cost. It required a lot of labor and expense to send out the tubes I did use.
> 
> ...



I _will _say it's the best price-to-performance amp I've ever had.  

Seriously, I would definitely agree your amp shows differences in 6SN7's better any other component I've used to date.  Not even a contest with the Lyr 3 -- it hints at differences while your amp lays them bare.  And I've had quite a number of 6SN7 based components beyond the Lyr 3 over time like the Cary preamp you listened to for a bit as well as several other preamps and amps. While most of those were great sounding components, none of them let as much of the tube itself come through.  But let's not discount what it does for the power tube...the differences in those is quite audible as well.  Take the tale of two Tung Sols. The one on the right is a 6080 with what looks like genuine printing.  And it probably is, just that the printing was applied by RCA.    When I first listened to it, my thought was "Huh?!?!? Thought these were supposed to be pretty good tubes." Maybe not upper echelon, but not meh.  And this was quite plainly meh, just to be polite about it:   






Then I tried the TungSol below on the right (dead Chatham 6080 on the left...bit hard to make out the print).  Holy tube-elicious, Batman!!  Anybody that can't hear a difference (and a substantial difference) between these two TungSol labeled tubes should maybe consider another hobby.  Now I can't say how dramatic that difference might have come through in another OTL amp as I don't have any others, but the difference in the Incubus was startling.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will do it like Amazon, free shipping!!! Two day delivery!!! Now the price per tube just changed but "free shipping" sounds great right?



Free shipping?  I just can't accept that...way too generous of you.  I'll Paypal you the $10k and drop a couple NOS Western Electric 421A's in the mail to you in trade.  Fair?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Now I seem to recall a certain youtuber who claimed the GE was the Best Of the BEst... thinking he was on cocaine to be honest.
> 
> Accuracy vs Colored Sound.... Did we open up a can of worms?



Somebody close it quick.  PLEASE!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Now I seem to recall a certain youtuber who claimed the GE was the Best Of the BEst... thinking he was on cocaine to be honest.



Was it the same guy that gushed over Pinnacle 6J5's by chance?  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am not sure I follow but tubes certainly do have a certain type of sound and if you can switch between them to judge bass, mids or whatever is not a bad thing. I do like to eliminate bias where possible. When you read about someone raving about a particular tube, and that tube costs $125 is it truly worth it. If I were to buy such a thing I would be expecting a lot from it just by review and associated price. Someone came up with a catchy name, Bad Boy and a tube you used to be able to buy for $15 is now worth $100 up. I have heard of Melz 1578's for a long time and certainly prefer some years to others, but they are rarely bought for less than $125, I tend to pay less because of the exchange rate between here and Russia.
> 
> Suppose a $20 Melz is chosen as the best sounding tube in a blind test, that would be wonderful and many people could enjoy such a tube at little cost but once again if you pay $20 for one tube and $125 for another, it is human nature to think the $125 tube must be better lol.


 Sorry, meant that in a humorous nature. Love your angle and theory here.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Free shipping?  I just can't accept that...way too generous of you.  I'll Paypal you the $10k and drop a couple NOS Western Electric 421A's in the mail to you in trade.  Fair?


Ok you drive a hard bargain but you win, I will get the GE tubes out of the vault later on.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Was it the same guy that gushed over Pinnacle 6J5's by chance?  LOL!!


L M F A O .. Oh god, I posted that by accident... it's that Zeus character on Z Reviews


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I only buy good sounding tubes.  I can't help it if some of the more expensive ones just sound better.



OK, whatever you say.  Preference is key, of course.  But I've seen your tube stash.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I _will _say it's the best price-to-performance amp I've ever had.
> 
> Seriously, I would definitely agree your amp shows differences in 6SN7's better any other component I've used to date.  Not even a contest with the Lyr 3 -- it hints at differences while your amp lays them bare.  And I've had quite a number of 6SN7 based components beyond the Lyr 3 over time like the Cary preamp you listened to for a bit as well as several other preamps and amps. While most of those were great sounding components, none of them let as much of the tube itself come through.  But let's not discount what it does for the power tube...the differences in those is quite audible as well.  Take the tale of two Tung Sols. The one on the right is a 6080 with what looks like genuine printing.  And it probably is, just that the printing was applied by RCA.    When I first listened to it, my thought was "Huh?!?!? Thought these were supposed to be pretty good tubes." Maybe not upper echelon, but not meh.  And this was quite plainly meh, just to be polite about it:
> 
> ...


LOL comparing price to performance is hardly fair since I gifted you the amp and paid shipping but I appreciate your other comments.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Sorry, meant that in a humorous nature. Love your angle and theory here.


Much of the work and theory comes from folks with more training and education than I possess, I merely designed four identical amps that might reveal tube sound, the music and test setup is where a lot of work comes in. I contribute, and I get to participate as do all involved.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 13, 2020)

bcowen said:


> OK, whatever you say.  Preference is key, of course.  But I've seen your tube stash.




Well, I figured if I hid all my TOTL tubes in GE boxes they'd be safe from you.  Turns out it's better than any security system I could have installed!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, I figured if I hid all my TOTL tubes in GE boxes they'd be safe from you.  Turns out it's better than any security system I could have installed!!


Does everyone here have (at least) one of them TOTL (TungSol correct?) I feel like I need to get one to be considered a serious collector.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Does everyone here have (at least) one of them TOTL (TungSol correct?) I feel like I need to get one to be considered a serious collector.




I have some Jan 6080 WA Chatham's, they look pretty well identical to the Tung Sols Bill showed. I popped one into an Incubus for some listening right now along with some Sylvania 6J5's I find appealing.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Does everyone here have (at least) one of them TOTL (TungSol correct?) I feel like I need to get one to be considered a serious collector.



Hell No!!  Where's the fun in that?   I'd much rather spend  $2000 on tubes in a hit-or-miss fashion trying to find a hidden gem as opposed to spending $400 on one TSRP tube that everyone knows is outstanding and is already regarded as a TOTL tube!!   

Besides -- I have a limit of $150 on any one tube.  



Paladin79 said:


> I have some Jan 6080 WA Chatham's, they look pretty well identical to the Tung Sols Bill showed. I popped one into an Incubus for some listening right now along with some Sylvania 6J5's I find appealing.



This is the 6SN7 thread, Tom!!  I'm pretty sure he was referring to the round-plate 6SN7.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Hell No!!  Where's the fun in that?   I'd much rather spend  $2000 on tubes in a hit-or-miss fashion trying to find a hidden gem as opposed to spending $400 on one TSRP tube that everyone knows is outstanding and is already regarded as a TOTL tube!!
> 
> Besides -- I have a limit of $150 on any one tube.


Same here, missed a bidding on one that went for $124....almost cried.


----------



## thomaskong78

Ripper2860 said:


> Hell No!!  Where's the fun in that?   I'd much rather spend  $2000 on tubes in a hit-or-miss fashion trying to find a hidden gem as opposed to spending $400 on one TSRP tube that everyone knows is outstanding and is already regarded as a TOTL tube!!
> 
> Besides -- I have a limit of $150 on any one tube.


You guys are living in small world.

Some serious audiophiles are talking about Magico M9 speaker with price tag of mere 750,000$.

I left two posts on the thread as below.


Place pre order before they run out of stock.

Even my house in rural area fetch more than 1 M$.

II I sell my house and buy this one, I will have enough cash to buy condo for elderly.

Can I play this small guy in condo?

Is there any elderly discount for M9? 


I had bought the ticket to Axpona 2020 but the cancelled ticket will be good for 2021 event.

Thus if I go ahead with Axpona 2021, then i will have a chance to listen to this speaker.

But it is unlikely that sincere audiophile will buy this speaker since they know well enough how hard it is to optimize this kind of monster speaker.

It will be more likely that some billionaire buy one to brag about it.

We will see the pair of speaker with price tag of 1M$ pretty soon.

Then it will be easier to brag about it.


Recently I had spent 4K$ on Nos 6sn7 tubes for shootout.

It was kind of wine tasting.

Now I had settled at Russion tubes called 1578 Melz and 6h9s which cost just 300$.

But after tube rolling, my system sounds much more dynamic with clean details, wider and deeper soundstage.

Thus it is unlikely that I will change my speaker in the near future.


If I upgrade my speaker, then I will go to Vintage Western horn system which cost around 300K$ (modest price tag compared with M9).

I shall have bought one Vintage western horn about 13 years ago when I have 1M$ of cash.


But I had spent the 1M$ on stocks and lost half of the money 3 years later on Lehman crash.


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> You guys are living in small world.
> 
> Some serious audiophiles are talking about Magico M9 speaker with price tag of mere 750,000$.
> 
> ...


crap ...must really suck to live like that.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Same here, missed a bidding on one that went for $124....almost cried.


Sorry I did not realize you were talking TSRP, I own a couple and have another on the way, right now they are part of the upcoming tube challenge, even within specific types we try to pick out the newest and best sounding when possible. A couple tubes are pretty much one of a kind, one person has some that were handed down by his grandfather who designed tubes for RCA. They used to have the largest television plant in the world here in town so there are a few descendants still here.


----------



## Ripper2860

So what is your take on the TSRP as compared to 40's RCA Gray Glass and the Melz?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hell No!!  Where's the fun in that?   I'd much rather spend  $2000 on tubes in a hit-or-miss fashion trying to find a hidden gem as opposed to spending $400 on one TSRP tube that everyone knows is outstanding and is already regarded as a TOTL tube!!



Copycat.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 13, 2020)

thomaskong78 said:


> You guys are living in small world.
> 
> Some serious audiophiles are talking about Magico M9 speaker with price tag of mere 750,000$.
> 
> ...


I know a lot of Russians who deal in tubes, they happily trade many of their tubes for Sylvania's, RCA's, and Tung Sols. Maybe it is just a matter of familiarity breeding contempt.I have worked in speaker design and there can be crazy markups involved, I prefer to build my own or catch a deal from friends. Tubes on the other hand are becoming more scarce so I buy them as I buy real estate and invest in the stock market. I got out just before the crash and bought heavy when the market was low.

I can recall a company that will charge $30,000 for two speaker cables. I think they list them just to get attention but every now and then someone will probably buy them, and I imagine they go laughing all the way to the bank. You cannot make sound better, the most you can hope for is to have less loss and less distortion over a particular distance. I am always more impressed with those who know the sound in real life and can tell me how close and end result is when it goes through an amplifier, wires, and transducers. Recording plays a big part as well so the audio engineer and recording equipment come into play.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> So what is your take on the TSRP as compared to 40's RCA Gray Glass and the Melz?


of those tubes I have consistently picked the RCA in blind tests until I heard the 63 Melz, but I have never claimed to have great hearing. They have to be in an Incubus for me to choose between them consistently. Even a highly modified BH Crack would only show a slight difference for me, and the power tubes were a waste of time.  For serious testing I use the music my group does so it is never this or that sounds better, there are 25 criteria and a final score. All three rated in the 90's. The black glass Ken Rad VT 231 is right in the mix.


----------



## bcowen

Back to 6SN7's (or halfway?) with some 6J5's.  First the Pinnacle-labeled Russian 6S2S (or 6C2C depending on which alphabet you prefer  ), and thanks to @Paladin79 for pointing out their heritage.  These things have that Russian bass thing going on. Hard to put it in words exactly, but there's this rhythmic drive in the mid - upper bass that just gets your foot tapping. It's the punch and weight and timing I think that just all comes together nicely and makes you want to crank it up and grab the air guitar.  And what's nice is you CAN crank it up, as the treble never gets hot, harsh, or fatiguing no matter how loud you go.  This particular trait is one of the most endearing qualities (to me) of the Foton 6N8S, and these 6J5's have it just the same.  Nice stage too with good width and depth.  Not as harmonically engaging in the mids and lacking some of the low level detail and note decay that I hear in the Sylvanias (below), but I'm going to say at this point that just like the Fotons, these are great cheap tubes!  I'm working at finding what's better out there (which most certainly exists), but for rock and metal these Russkies don't leave me wanting at all.

Next up are the '45 Sylvanias.  Hmmm.  Rather gritty sounding at the outset which pretty much went away after about 5 hours of break-in.  As mentioned above the mids are nicely detailed and full of harmonic info.  Treble is extended and detailed, but currently can wield a bit of an edge at louder volumes (recording dependent). What I'm not enthused with at this point is the bass. Nicely defined and with relatively good extension, but also rather thin sounding and lacking body. The "where's the beef" kind of thing.  Maybe that will improve with some more break-in, and if it does then I might could like this tube quite a bit.  If not, then they're going to be filed away in the also-ran bin. 

After I give the Sylvies their full due the Brimars are on deck next.   

Pinnacle 6J5GT (Russian 6S2S):


 

1945 Black Round plate Sylvania 6J5GT:




Gray Round plate Brimar 6J5GT (haven't looked at the year):


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Back to 6SN7's (or halfway?) with some 6J5's.  First the Pinnacle-labeled Russian 6S2S (or 6C2C depending on which alphabet you prefer  ), and thanks to @Paladin79 for pointing out their heritage.  These things have that Russian bass thing going on. Hard to put it in words exactly, but there's this rhythmic drive in the mid - upper bass that just gets your foot tapping. It's the punch and weight and timing I think that just all comes together nicely and makes you want to crank it up and grab the air guitar.  And what's nice is you CAN crank it up, as the treble never gets hot, harsh, or fatiguing no matter how loud you go.  This particular trait is one of the most endearing qualities (to me) of the Foton 6N8S, and these 6J5's have it just the same.  Nice stage too with good width and depth.  Not as harmonically engaging in the mids and lacking some of the low level detail and note decay that I hear in the Sylvanias (below), but I'm going to say at this point that just like the Fotons, these are great cheap tubes!  I'm working at finding what's better out there (which most certainly exists), but for rock and metal these Russkies don't leave me wanting at all.
> 
> Next up are the '45 Sylvanias.  Hmmm.  Rather gritty sounding at the outset which pretty much went away after about 5 hours of break-in.  As mentioned above the mids are nicely detailed and full of harmonic info.  Treble is extended and detailed, but currently can wield a bit of an edge at louder volumes (recording dependent). What I'm not enthused with at this point is the bass. Nicely defined and with relatively good extension, but also rather thin sounding and lacking body. The "where's the beef" kind of thing.  Maybe that will improve with some more break-in, and if it does then I might could like this tube quite a bit.  If not, then they're going to be filed away in the also-ran bin.
> 
> ...


I do like some Russian tubes. Unfortunately I have equipment where I can examine signal in and amplified signal out so I can see how some parts of the audio spectrum are affected by specific tubes. I always listen first, form an opinion, then try to see if the things I enjoy are representative of the original signal. My preferred tubes are enjoyable to me and more often than not, faithful to the original sound.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do like some Russian tubes. Unfortunately I have equipment where I can examine signal in and amplified signal out so I can see how some parts of the audio spectrum are affected by specific tubes. I always listen first, form an opinion, then try to see if the things I enjoy are representative of the original signal. My preferred tubes are enjoyable to me and more often than not, faithful to the original sound.



So in other words, the Russian 6S2S's measure like schiit?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So in other words, the Russian 6S2S's measure like schiit?


Let’s just say they add a lot more to the sound signature than other pairs of 6j5’s but some harmonics can be pleasing to some ears.


----------



## Ripper2860

The man listens to Marian Manson exclusively and at 120db.  I'm not so sure Bill's hearing is what it used to be, so we should just humor him.  Poor guy.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 14, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> The man listens to Marian Manson exclusively and at 120db.  I'm not so sure Bill's hearing is what it used to be, so we should just humor him.  Poor guy.


lol
Yeah I was trying to find a nice way to say it and it has been a while since I looked closely at those tubes, but as I recall, they do show a higher bass level without adding a lot of distortion. Sometimes tubes are not as linear as you hope and they really stress certain areas. The 80's Melz 1578's are a great example, the mids are in your face, I know of no other tube that measures like they do but they seem to sacrifice some of the high frequencies. They are still fun to listen to and it is one tube I can pick out blind easier than others. Think back to some of the Fotons and people saying they were a roller coaster ride till you burned them in for 100 hours. I examined four or five and the results were all very different and that should not be. I replaced the solder and all were fine and just needed the usual burn in. I did go ahead and run one of them for 100 hours and the only difference I saw was a slightly lower emission and less gain but it was minute, otherwise the tracked as the other Fotons did that I only changed the solder on. They have a slightly higher bass level but I did not see much distortion. I agree with Bill that many of the Russian tubes are a bargain but I had to go through a lot of them to find specific ones I liked and were more consistent across the whole audio spectrum.

You have to remember too that I am designing amps so I am constantly on the lookout for tubes to use as a baseline, one of Bill's favorites the Frankie, does not sound so good in my amp and its measurements are not as bad as many tubes I have listened to or examined. They are generally a bargain but I can only listen to them in a Lyr 3 and then it sounds more like a lot of other tubes IMHO.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 14, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Let’s just say they add a lot more to the sound signature than other pairs of 6j5’s but some harmonics can be pleasing to some ears.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The man listens to Marian Manson exclusively and at 120db.  I'm not so sure Bill's hearing is what it used to be, so we should just humor him.  Poor guy.



Marian?  I never knew she was a singer.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 14, 2020)

You do have quite an extensive and obscure collection of music -  I'll give you that.


(I hate autocorrect)


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


>


Absolutely, and honestly if I like a tube, I like a tube. With my background I am always curious why some sound the way they do. If Bill likes his Marilyn Manson at ear bleeding levels with a lot of bass, more power to him. As long as he is not playing it at four AM on my front lawn, I am glad it makes him happy.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> lol
> Yeah I was trying to find a nice way to say it and it has been a while since I looked closely at those tubes, but as I recall, they do show a higher bass level without adding a lot of distortion. Sometimes tubes are not as linear as you hope and they really stress certain areas. The 80's Melz 1578's are a great example, the mids are in your face, I know of no other tube that measures like they do but they seem to sacrifice some of the high frequencies. They are still fun to listen to and it is one tube I can pick out blind easier than others. Think back to some of the Fotons and people saying they were a roller coaster ride till you burned them in for 100 hours. I examined four or five and the results were all very different and that should not be. I replaced the solder and all were fine and just needed the usual burn in. I did go ahead and run one of them for 100 hours and the only difference I saw was a slightly lower emission and less gain but it was minute, otherwise the tracked as the other Fotons did that I only changed the solder on. They have a slightly higher bass level but I did not see much distortion. I agree with Bill that many of the Russian tubes are a bargain but I had to go through a lot of them to find specific ones I liked and were more consistent across the whole audio spectrum.
> 
> You have to remember too that I am designing amps so I am constantly on the lookout for tubes to use as a baseline, one of Bill's favorites the Frankie, does not sound so good in my amp and its measurements are not as bad as many tubes I have listened to or examined. They are generally a bargain but I can only listen to them in a Lyr 3 and then it sounds more like a lot of other tubes IMHO.


Jamming to the Frankenstein... sublime.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Jamming to the Frankenstein... sublime.


See if you like it as well when the Incubus arrives, now UPS says Tuesday.

I only spent maybe a half hour listening to a Darkvoice I repaired for a friend but I imagine it does sound good with the Frankie.


----------



## yonson

Paladin79 said:


> I know a lot of Russians who deal in tubes, they happily trade many of their tubes for Sylvania's, RCA's, and Tung Sols. Maybe it is just a matter of familiarity breeding contempt.I have worked in speaker design and there can be crazy markups involved, I prefer to build my own or catch a deal from friends. Tubes on the other hand are becoming more scarce so I buy them as I buy real estate and invest in the stock market. I got out just before the crash and bought heavy when the market was low.
> 
> I can recall a company that will charge $30,000 for two speaker cables. I think they list them just to get attention but every now and then someone will probably buy them, and I imagine they go laughing all the way to the bank. You cannot make sound better, the most you can hope for is to have less loss and less distortion over a particular distance. I am always more impressed with those who know the sound in real life and can tell me how close and end result is when it goes through an amplifier, wires, and transducers. Recording plays a big part as well so the audio engineer and recording equipment come into play.



There are actually quite a few companies that have $30k+ speaker cables, Ansuz and Nordost are 2 that come to mind without much thought, I know there are others though.  I know a couple guys that have them and they have gone up through the tiers and they say they can tell a difference, but they have way better "ears" than I do.  I've gotten to where I listen to the music more than the gear and I don't listen as critically as I once did, as long as it's not distorted and is a close representation as to what I remember I'm usually happy...


----------



## Paladin79

yonson said:


> There are actually quite a few companies that have $30k+ speaker cables, Ansuz and Nordost are 2 that come to mind without much thought, I know there are others though.  I know a couple guys that have them and they have gone up through the tiers and they say they can tell a difference, but they have way better "ears" than I do.  I've gotten to where I listen to the music more than the gear and I don't listen as critically as I once did, as long as it's not distorted and is a close representation as to what I remember I'm usually happy...


All they would have to do is convince me in a blind test that they could consistently pick those cables over something I assembled for under $1,000 and I would be impressed lol. A cable can maintain a signal, it cannot improve it. There is only so much improvement that can be made in that area and personally I would be more likely to spend the money on something else like an amp or speakers for a more noticeable improvement. What do I know though, I have only spent 15 years in that specific field.😸


----------



## yonson

Paladin79 said:


> All they would have to do is convince me in a blind test that they could consistently pick those cables over something I assembled for under $1,000 and I would be impressed lol. A cable can maintain a signal, it cannot improve it. There is only so much improvement that can be made in that area and personally I would be more likely to spend the money on something else like an amp or speakers for a more noticeable improvement. What do I know though, I have only spent 15 years in that specific field.😸


I don't really concern myself with it, it's their money and if they perceive there is a difference and they are happy with them, who am I to try and convince them otherwise.


----------



## Paladin79

yonson said:


> I don't really concern myself with it, it's their money and if they perceive there is a difference and they are happy with them, who am I to try and convince them otherwise.


Understandable, it is hard to argue beliefs. I am always curious about such things and occasionally I get surprised. 

Getting back to 6SN7’s I know two people who can differentiate between tubes well, one who knows brands and has done a lot of listening. Another with exceptional hearing who can pick the same tube out of eight no matter which tube she is given as an example. Mix them up all you want, and blind she can pick whichever she was asked to pick.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Understandable, it is hard to argue beliefs. I am always curious about such things and occasionally I get surprised.
> 
> Getting back to 6SN7’s I know two people who can differentiate between tubes well, one who knows brands and has done a lot of listening. Another with exceptional hearing who can pick the same tube out of eight no matter which tube she is given as an example. Mix them up all you want, and blind she can pick whichever she was asked to pick.



The easiest way to hear differences in tubes is to listen to Marian Manson at 120 db.  But only after breaking in the tube(s) for at least 100 hours, of course.


----------



## bcowen

yonson said:


> I don't really concern myself with it, it's their money and if they perceive there is a difference and they are happy with them, who am I to try and convince them otherwise.



Couldn't agree more.

And it's all relative.  $30k is a crapload of money to me regardless of what it's spent on. To others it's pocket change or the cost of a week's vacation. And If I told the average person I'd spent $900 on a pair of headphones, they'd be convinced I'm insane.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> And it's all relative.  $30k is a crapload of money to me regardless of what it's spent on. To others it's pocket change or the cost of a week's vacation. And If I told the average person I'd spent $900 on a pair of headphones, they'd be convinced I'm insane.


I always wonder what the marketing cost is to convince someone to pay that much. Headphone cost I can sometimes understand but a $1,000 cable to said headphones has always baffled me but then I have access to and have tried most conceivable types of wire made, and know material and labor costs so my opinions are probably jaded. 

Tubes on the other hand just get to be more and more scarce so they are not a bad investment and have stood the test of time.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 15, 2020)

So what you guys think? Ken Rad Black and Clear Ken Rad. VT231 both of em, was brought to my attention that the clear glass could actually be a Sylvania! Sure does look like one, and it's taller than the Black KenRad. @Wes S


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> So what you guys think? Ken Rad Black and Clear Ken Rad. VT231 both of em, was brought to my attention that the clear glass could actually be a Sylvania! Sure does look like one, and it's taller than the Black KenRad. @Wes S


Hmmm I would have to see the clear glass close up, I may have one in my tubes somewhere. I have different logos on all of my black glass vt-231's so those may well be close in production years.


----------



## Ripper2860

My KR clear glass has ladder plates.  Those T plates look an awful lot like Sylvania to me.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> My KR clear glass has ladder plates.  Those T plates look an awful lot like Sylvania to me.



Could also be GE's if they were made in 1945 or after. LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Could also be GE's if they were made in 1945 or after. LOL!!


I was laughing then found this! Those ladder plates could very well be GE!  https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=KEN-6SN7GT-VT231
whats really baffling me is that I can't find a matching photo (on the internet) to the one I have. bizzare  o.O


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 16, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I was laughing then found this! Those ladder plates could very well be GE!  https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=KEN-6SN7GT-VT231
> whats really baffling me is that I can't find a matching photo (on the internet) to the one I have. bizzare  o.O


It would have been interesting to get  your impressions before you find, or found out who made them.  

There should be a package delivered today for you including some 6sn7's for blind testing. No GE's though, I have only sent one of those to @bcowen.

Check this out, and the number 188 on the side.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-1940s...029940?hash=item2895fc45b4:g:LLMAAOSwja5e1uu5

188-5 are tubes made by GE in the Owensboro Kentucky plant.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 16, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> It would have been interesting to get  your impressions before you find, or found out who made them.
> 
> There should be a package delivered today for you including some 6sn7's for blind testing. No GE's though, I have only sent one of those to @bcowen.
> 
> ...



Quick Google and found this..

"The EIA *code* of *188*-5 identifies the Owensboro, KY tube factory. Until 1945 that was the original *Ken*-*Rad* factory. In 1945 GE was allowed to buy the factory, after the Federal Government stepped in to quell a labor dispute (under direct orders of Pres. Roosevelt "

"So GE owned the plant from 1945 onward.

The tubes that were produced there were still labeled "Ken-Rad" until about 1952. The brand was recognized for quality, so GE kept using it. GE's Cold War ramp up in the early-'50s started with their "5-star" products, and that move ended the use of the Ken-Rad name.

So... '50s "Ken-Rad" = GE product"


Now I'm searching on how the freak a Sylvania got into my Kenrad, or the other way around.. mysterious, the silver lining, I've always waned a VT231 Sylvania!!! CAn anyone decipher the numbers on KenRAd?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 16, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Quick Google and found this..
> 
> "The EIA *code* of *188*-5 identifies the Owensboro, KY tube factory. Until 1945 that was the original *Ken*-*Rad* factory. In 1945 GE was allowed to buy the factory, after the Federal Government stepped in to quell a labor dispute (under direct orders of Pres. Roosevelt "
> 
> ...


I do have some Sylvania VT 231's somewhere, I just do not recall if they are black glass and how visible the plates are. I need to search for them later along with a GE Frankie, but  that is another story. I do not recall which tubes I sent you mounted in PVC but I have put Sylvania Vt-231's in there as well as Bad boys but I have a lot of such tubes out there, I would not know what I sent you till you give me the four digit codes on the fronts lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I do have some Sylvania VT 231's somewhere, I just do not recall if they are black glass and how visible the plates are. I need to search for them later along with a GE Frankie, but  that is another story. I do not recall which tubes I sent you mounted in PVC but I have put Sylvania Vt-231's in there as well as Bad boys but I have a lot of such tubes out there, I would not know what I sent you till you give me the four digit codes on the fronts lol.


Thanks for the clue, lets see if my ear is up to the task of picking it!!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks for the clue, lets see if my ear is up to the task of picking it!!


Be sure and compare the Darkvoice to the Incubus, you should be able to pick out tube sound a lot better with the second amp but that is for you to decide.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 16, 2020)

From left to right there are grey and black ladder plates all made by GE. Stamped on the first four tubes are Marconi, Ken-Rad, Motorola, and Eico. The fifth tube is a two hole black plate Sylvania, I am still looking around for some of my Sylvania VT-231's. I have no idea what became of them but every now and then I find a tube elsewhere in the house that seemed to have been batted around and lost under a bed or refrigerator. Oh well, some things in life are just a mystery I guess.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 16, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Be sure and compare the Darkvoice to the Incubus, you should be able to pick out tube sound a lot better with the second amp but that is for you to decide.





Paladin79 said:


> From left to right there are grey and black ladder plates all made by GE. Stamped on the first four tubes are Marconi, Ken-Rad, Motorola, and Eico. The fifth tube is a two hole black plate Sylvania, I am still looking around for some of my Sylvania VT-231's. I have no idea what became of them but every now and then I find a tube elsewhere in the house that seemed to have been batted around and lost under a bed or refrigerator. Oh well, some things in life are just a mystery I guess.


That 2nd tube, KenRad, looks like it has tplates like the Sylvania (and my collection of tubes only spills into three drawers..  ) Might have to unload some on a fire sale soon.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 16, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> That 2nd tube, KenRad, looks like it has tplates like the Sylvania





This should be a better view. I have a lot of tubes sorted 8 at a time in very nice boxes with foam inserts, I just keep some of the tubes from the @bcowen tube challenge in an aluminium case so they are easy access if he wants to bet a steak dinner again one day.
 Being an honorable person, I did not substitute tubes I knew were GE with brand names like CBS, Ken-Rad etc. You would be shocked at how many tubes I bought that turned out to be made by other manufacturers, some were even stamped with the wrong EIA codes. I also found Sylvania bad boys with other names on them, but those are tubes I search for myself so I am a little hesitant to name them.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> This should be a better view.


I have these two coming in and am hoping the KenRad is not older than 1952, if so, back to the auction table.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks for the clue, lets see if my ear is up to the task of picking it!!


I just decided that since I am donating that amp and tubes, it really does not matter if the person gets three tubes or four. Let me know which is your favorite in the PVC tubes and I will most likely gift you that one.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I just decided that since I am donating that amp and tubes, it really does not matter if the person gets three tubes or four. Let me know which is your favorite in the PVC tubes and I will most likely gift you that one.


what!? you serious!?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> what!? you serious!?


yep, and I now know which tubes I sent, there is only one tube there that might fetch less than $100 so try not to pick it lol.


----------



## Paladin79

Paladin79 said:


> yep, and I now know which tubes I sent, there is only one tube there that might fetch less than $100 so try not to pick it lol.


You seem like a very good guy and I wanted to give you something for going out of your way to hear the Incubus.


----------



## Dave01236

Hello fellow headfiers. I've done a lot of research (a lot!) about the best 6sn7 tubes out there, and a few weeks ago I finally pulled the trigger and bought some tung sol 6f8g's black ladder plates with adapters. I don't know if they sound very different from the round plates version though, if anybody knows please tell me. The drivers I currently have in my cayin ha300 amp are the stock tubes : the shuguang we6sn7's. So, I do believe the 6f8g's will make a big difference to the sound. My headphones are the hifiman he1000 SE.

I'd like to get a 2nd pair of drivers that could compete with the 6f8g's. So far I have read amazing things about the sylvania 6sn7w metal base, the melz 1578 russian tubes and the mullard ecc32. I previously used the ecc 35's and liked them very much but unfortunately 6sl7 won't work in my new amp. I wonder if anyone has heard all of those tubes and could give me their honest opinion about them, and describe their sound. That would be very appreciated and I might be able to save a lot of $$$! Also, I mostly listen to rock and metal music. So, speed and slam are very important factors for me.


----------



## JKDJedi

Dave01236 said:


> Hello fellow headfiers. I've done a lot of research (a lot!) about the best 6sn7 tubes out there, and a few weeks ago I finally pulled the trigger and bought some tung sol 6f8g's black ladder plates with adapters. I don't know if they sound very different from the round plates version though, if anybody knows please tell me. The drivers I currently have in my cayin ha300 amp are the stock tubes : the shuguang we6sn7's. So, I do believe the 6f8g's will make a big difference to the sound. My headphones are the hifiman he1000 SE.
> 
> I'd like to get a 2nd pair of drivers that could compete with the 6f8g's. So far I have read amazing things about the sylvania 6sn7w metal base, the melz 1578 russian tubes and the mullard ecc32. I previously used the ecc 35's and liked them very much but unfortunately 6sl7 won't work in my new amp. I wonder if anyone has heard all of those tubes and could give me their honest opinion about them, and describe their sound. That would be very appreciated and I might be able to save a lot of $$$! Also, I mostly listen to rock and metal music. So, speed and slam are very important factors for me.


My guess, because of the Rock and Metal, the Melz 1578


----------



## Dave01236

JKDJedi said:


> My guess, because of the Rock and Metal, the Melz 1578



I ordered a pair of these yesterday, thanks! Apparently they offer a very big soundstage. The soundstage is already pretty wide with my cayin ha300 so I can't wait to see that, combined with the Melz. Many say they are the holy grail of 6SN7's, and for an affordable price too. They're very affordable compared to the sylvania 6sn7w metal base and the tung sol BGRP. These tubes go for twice the price of the melz, and even more.


----------



## Paladin79

Dave01236 said:


> I ordered a pair of these yesterday, thanks! Apparently they offer a very big soundstage. The soundstage is already pretty wide with my cayin ha300 so I can't wait to see that, combined with the Melz. Many say they are the holy grail of 6SN7's, and for an affordable price too. They're very affordable compared to the sylvania 6sn7w metal base and the tung sol BGRP. These tubes go for twice the price of the melz, and even more.


Hopefully you read what to look for in that particular tube, there has been plenty of info posted about them.


----------



## Dave01236

Paladin79 said:


> Hopefully you read what to look for in that particular tube, there has been plenty of info posted about them.



Yes I did! Here's what they look like. They should be true Melz 1578.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 17, 2020)

You should be fine, I cannot see the date code but they look like some from the 80's, it is inside the circle at the lower right. All the components look correct. The do have a history of solder break down inside the pins and I would help you with that at no charge if you ever need it and do  not want to risk it yourself. Be prepared for really predominant midrange with those tubes, few other tubes have that sound IMHO. I like all the years but my personal favorite is the 1963.


----------



## Dave01236

That's amazing! Thank you very much. I can't wait to hear the midrange of these. In my previous amp (WA22) I had the ECC35's and I really liked the midrange of these tubes. If the melz can give me the same midrange magic I used to have with the ecc35's, then that's perfect!

I'm also getting some takatsuki 300b's very soon. I cannot wait to start tube rolling!


----------



## JKDJedi

Dave01236 said:


> Yes I did! Here's what they look like. They should be true Melz 1578.


True Blue!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Well, blind testing is ongoing, not as easy as I thought it would be, and the added pressure of picking a premium tube over maybe a GE is ENORMOUS  Might keep this private, or not. Depending on the outcome of course!   .


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Well, blind testing is ongoing, not as easy as I thought it would be, and the added pressure of picking a premium tube over maybe a GE is ENORMOUS  Might keep this private, or not. Depending on the outcome of course!   .


I only send GE tubes to @bcowen , you are probably too young to understand this reference but the least expensive tube in that batch comes from a very revered brand, and your hint is Annette Funicello. Sam would get it, and others I would hope.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I only send GE tubes to @bcowen , you are probably too young to understand this reference but the least expensive tube in that batch comes from a very revered brand, and your hint is Annette Funicello. Sam would get it, and others I would hope.


Disney made tubes?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Disney made tubes?


Something like that.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> I only send GE tubes to @bcowen , you are probably too young to understand this reference but the least expensive tube in that batch comes from a very revered brand, and your hint is Annette Funicello. Sam would get it, and others I would hope.


You could modernize the reference: Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, Ryan Gosling and Christine Aguilera were later iteration members of the same club.


----------



## yonson

JKDJedi said:


> Disney made tubes?



First thing that popped in my head was What does the Mickey Mouse club have to do with tubes...


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Something like that.


Good one!


----------



## JKDJedi

yonson said:


> First thing that popped in my head was What does the Mickey Mouse club have to do with tubes...


L M F A O... They probably collaborated with RCA 🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 17, 2020)

yonson said:


> First thing that popped in my head was What does the Mickey Mouse club have to do with tubes...


Really? What did Annette have in common with a specific name given to a tube type? How about mouse ears?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Tung-...929302?hash=item5b74763ad6:g:Co4AAOSwzMVeubjm


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Really? What did Annette have in common with a specific name given to a tube type? How about mouse ears?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Tung-...929302?hash=item5b74763ad6:g:Co4AAOSwzMVeubjm


Noooooooo Noooooooo Noooooo No Clues !!!!! Now I'm Gonna really be concentrating!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Noooooooo Noooooooo Noooooo No Clues !!!!! Now I'm Gonna really be concentrating!


ok sorry lol, no more clues.


----------



## yonson

Paladin79 said:


> Really? What did Annette have in common with a specific name given to a tube type? How about mouse ears?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Tung-...929302?hash=item5b74763ad6:g:Co4AAOSwzMVeubjm



I'm still green in the tube rolling game and I'm not well versed in "tube talk", I didn't know about those...  I only have 4 different tubes for my Saga +


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 17, 2020)

yonson said:


> I'm still green in the tube rolling game and I'm not well versed in "tube talk", I didn't know about those...  I only have 4 different tubes for my Saga +


I knew it would be obscure to some, both references. I have done a lot with 6sn7 equivalents including designing an amp around them so they are kind of second nature to me. The Saga uses a tube as a buffer according to Jason at Schiit so it was not my first choice for his tube challenge but I know it is a respected preamp and since I have had a few Freyas I have never purchased a saga. I have tried or own most all other tube amps Schiit has made, I own a couple of their DACS as well but I am not a big fan of solid state at this stage of my career.

I am in the middle of replacing the solder in some Foton tubes, and I use the same process on Melz if anyone has any questions, I can also take a picture or two if that helps. I am stopping and listening to each tube after solder replacement. I use a very small diameter Kester solder that is 3% silver for the process. It flows into the pins without leaving much cleanup.

Listening to a 53 Foton with ribbed plates but soon it will be 52's.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I knew it would be obscure to some, both references. I have done a lot with 6sn7 equivalents including designing an amp around them so they are kind of second nature to me. The Saga uses a tube as a buffer according to Jason at Schiit so it was not my first choice for his tube challenge but I know it is a respected preamp and since I have had a few Freyas I have never purchased a saga. I have tried or own most all other tube amps Schiit has made, I own a couple of their DACS as well but I am not a big fan of solid state at this stage of my career.
> 
> I am in the middle of replacing the solder in some Foton tubes, and I use the same process on Melz if anyone has any questions, I can also take a picture or two if that helps. I am stopping and listening to each tube after solder replacement. I use a very small diameter Kester solder that is 3% silver for the process. It flows into the pins without leaving much cleanup.
> 
> Listening to a 53 Foton with ribbed plates but soon it will be 52's.


If you want to try a first generation Saga, PM me Tom.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> If you want to try a first generation Saga, PM me Tom.


Thanks Sam, I will think it over. I would want to return the favor of course, maybe lend you an Incubus sometime. With rainbow poplar perhaps.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks Sam, I will think it over. I would want to return the favor of course, maybe lend you an Incubus sometime. With rainbow poplar perhaps.


I would probably take advantage of your impeccable woodworking skills.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I would probably take advantage of your impeccable woodworking skills.


It is harder for me than the electronics lol. I keep practicing on other things.


Anyway back to 6sn7's, I am listening to some 1952 ribbed plate Fotons and they are better than I remembered, or the Cetron power tube really helps, maybe it is a combination of the two. Anyway these were pretty crappy before I replaced solder and my friend was starting to suspect his Saga as the issue. These tubes are still a bargain if you can lay your hands on some from the fifties.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> It is harder for me than the electronics lol. I keep practicing on other things.
> 
> Anyway back to 6sn7's, I am listening to some 1952 ribbed plate Fotons and they are better than I remembered, or the Cetron power tube really helps, maybe it is a combination of the two. Anyway these were pretty crappy before I replaced solder and my friend was starting to suspect his Saga as the issue. These tubes are still a bargain if you can lay your hands on some from the fifties.


I really need to obtain your re soldering process procedures, as I have some CCCP era tubes that need some attention.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I really need to obtain your re soldering process procedures, as I have some CCCP era tubes that need some attention.


Pm me an email address and I will send you photos and explain the process and give you links for the solder I use, it was discontinued by Kester but was bought up and put in small tubes by NTE I think, .020 diameter as I recall.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Disney made tubes?



ROFL!


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I would probably take advantage of your impeccable woodworking skills.



Great.  Now his head will be so big his glasses won't fit any more and he won't be able to tell the difference between purpleheart and #4 grade yellow pine...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Great.  Now his head will be so big his glasses won't fit any more and he won't be able to tell the difference between purpleheart and #4 grade yellow pine...


Now now, my work is only impeccable if you stand back a ways and kind of squint your eyes.  By the way are you not the guy who thinks he should get compensated for the name Frankentube?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now now, my work is only impeccable if you stand back a ways and kind of squint your eyes.  By the way are you not the guy who thinks he should get compensated for the name Frankentube?



You mean kind of like how downtown Detroit looks nice...from a distance?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean kind of like how downtown Detroit looks nice...from a distance?



LOL, ok back to tubes. I know I have probably not said a lot about Foton's in the past but the 1952 with Cetron power tube is really impressing me, the bass is certainly there but well defined. I would love to get my hands on more 1952's (hint,hint) and if I were to receive a care package I bet I could make your wife a nice cutting board one day. I have a feeling you are not allowed to be around sharp instruments and I get the impression that you slather everything, including breakfast cereal, in bar-b-cue sauce anyway. You might even have to look up the word charcuterie again if I send such an item.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, ok back to tubes. I know I have probably not said a lot about Foton's in the past but the 1952 with Cetron power tube is really impressing me, the bass is certainly there but well defined. I would love to get my hands on more 1952's (hint,hint) and if I were to receive a care package I bet I could make your wife a nice cutting board one day. I have a feeling you are not allowed to be around sharp instruments and I get the impression that you slather everything, including breakfast cereal, in bar-b-cue sauce anyway. You might even have to look up the word charcuterie again if I send such an item.



LOL!  I think the last time my wife cooked was around 2014, so not sure she'd remember what a cutting board is used for.  

Regardless, I'll have to check my stash of '52's.  If I have 30 or 40 I suppose I could spare a couple.  Pin soldering and break-in not included.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I think the last time my wife cooked was around 2014, so not sure she'd remember what a cutting board is used for.
> 
> Regardless, I'll have to check my stash of '52's.  If I have 30 or 40 I suppose I could spare a couple.  Pin soldering and break-in not included.


lol
I imagine I could spare the time to solder some of those tubes for you as well, if I have to, I suppose. Not that your soldering skills are not supreme and remarkable to behold of course, you are a busy man and tube hoarding is a full time job. I may have to share my GE stash with you as a thank you!


----------



## JKDJedi

She's drop dead gorgeous 😍 just in, let's see how long this infatuation lasts. #myfirstmelz not sure how to date these. OTH 23 13 on the side. V1-71 on the the logo.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 18, 2020)

1971, you look in the lower right corner of the Melz logo, that is what it looks like to me.

They can take a little while to burn in but pop that in the Incubus and pay close attention to the mids.  

If you get any noise in the highs I will walk you through solder replacement but on occasion they sound all right.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> 1971, you look in the lower right corner of the Melz logo, that is what it looks like to me.
> 
> They can take a little while to burn in but pop that in the Incubus and pay close attention to the mids.


I know, I fig


Paladin79 said:


> 1971, you look in the lower right corner of the Melz logo, that is what it looks like to me.
> 
> They can take a little while to burn in but pop that in the Incubus and pay close attention to the mids.


I know, I know, and I have a strong feeling what and which your talking about too.. lol. Do I want another pair of ears or a Melz is the question!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I know, I fig
> 
> I know, I know, and I have a strong feeling what and which your talking about too.. lol. Do I want another pair of ears or a Melz is the question!


I have some from the late 70's but not a 71 so it will be interesting to get your take on that tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I have some from the late 70's but not a 71 so it will be interesting to get your take on that tube.


Just lit her up, no break in needed, I think I'm a Melz fan boy now    .. wow.  Sensational.  5998 pushing from behind, great mix.  Mr. P.C John Coltrane. & your Art Pepper "Imagination"... all day..lol,   starting get really familiar with these two tracks


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 18, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Just lit her up, no break in needed, I think I'm a Melz fan boy now    .. wow.  Sensational.  5998 pushing from behind, great mix.  Mr. P.C John Coltrane. & your Art Pepper "Imagination"... all day..lol,   starting get really familiar with these two tracks


Now if you are adventuresome, here are a few tunes I use for testing, I am not saying they are lovely, or entertaining, just very good test tracks IMHO. You may want to be sitting down with a nice adult beverage when you listen to a couple of them, here is an easy one first.

Nite Crawler......Larry Carlton
Rango II.....Vulfpeck
Roustabout......Beats Antique
Robot Rock.......Daft Punk

oh and Night Time in the Switching Yard.....Warren Zevon, I have used it as a test track since the album Excitable Boy was released.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Now if you are adventuresome, here are a few tunes I use for testing, I am not saying they are lovely, or entertaining, just very good test tracks IMHO. You may want to be sitting down with a nice adult beverage when you listen to a couple of them, here is an easy one first.
> 
> Nite Crawler......Larry Carlton
> Rango II.....Vulfpeck
> ...


I'll have to grab that adult beverage ASAP!!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'll have to grab that adult beverage ASAP!!


Listening to a 63 Melz with a Cetron power tube in a glorified Incubus amp with $3k in parts right now. 
The track is The Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove....Dead Can Dance
Most everyone knows this as a fine test track I would think. We are three hours ahead of you here so the sun is nearly over the yardarm, but then when you are working from home, most any time can be happy hour.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 18, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Listening to a 63 Melz with a Cetron power tube in a glorified Incubus amp with $3k in parts right now.
> The track is The Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove....Dead Can Dance
> Most everyone knows this as a fine test track I would think. We are three hours ahead of you here so the sun is nearly over the yardarm, but then when you are working from home, most any time can be happy hour.


Must be nice... My stay at home mandate ends Sunday. Starting the new summer hours of 10-4s ( 10 hour days Fridays off).... Wup the f-k weee. I can't wait.  Not. We'll see if I can sneak out for the beer run. The last pairing on the Darkvoice that I really liked was the Chatham 6080 and Raytheon VT231. Have it on the Incubus, but first, that 🍻. 😉


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> She's drop dead gorgeous 😍 just in, let's see how long this infatuation lasts. #myfirstmelz not sure how to date these. OTH 23 13 on the side. V1-71 on the the logo.



Sweet!  I have several different vintages of the non-hole plates, and they play in the same field as the Fotons (little different sound, but quite good). But still none are as good as the hole plate versions. 

Speaking of Fotons, these just arrived today after a forever+infinity wait for them to arrive. Some '57's, a couple '59's, and 4 ribbed plate '56's.  Cool!  I have both ribbed and non-ribbed plate '56's (guessing that was the year they changed the plate configuration), and the ribbed ones do sound better. Not huge, but noticeable. Haven't tested them yet...hopefully no dogs so I can send all 10 to @Paladin79 for resoldering. LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  I have several different vintages of the non-hole plates, and they play in the same field as the Fotons (little different sound, but quite good). But still none are as good as the hole plate versions.
> 
> Speaking of Fotons, these just arrived today after a forever+infinity wait for them to arrive. Some '57's, a couple '59's, and 4 ribbed plate '56's.  Cool!  I have both ribbed and non-ribbed plate '56's (guessing that was the year they changed the plate configuration), and the ribbed ones do sound better. Not huge, but noticeable. Haven't tested them yet...hopefully no dogs so I can send all 10 to @Paladin79 for resoldering. LOL!


Give me a little time to add an addition on my house for when the semi backs up. I wonder if my zoning allows for a loading dock? I know how many Russian tubes you have.😉


----------



## JKDJedi

It's so on....


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 18, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Now if you are adventuresome, here are a few tunes I use for testing, I am not saying they are lovely, or entertaining, just very good test tracks IMHO. You may want to be sitting down with a nice adult beverage when you listen to a couple of them, here is an easy one first.
> 
> Nite Crawler......Larry Carlton
> Rango II.....Vulfpeck
> ...


I just accidentally listened to Roustabout by Elvis Presley....and thoroughly enjoyed it. Weird. And you just messed me up real bad with this track (Roustabout......Beats Antique) ...bad...I'm beside myself right now wondering what da F^%k is this S&^t ...this is the track you want to listen too...  https://tidal.com/browse/track/93436725 Still Loving You - Scorpions


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 18, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I just accidentally listened to Roustabout by Elvis Presley....and thoroughly enjoyed it. Weird. And you just messed me up real bad with this track (Roustabout......Beats Antique) ...bad...I'm beside myself right now wondering what da F^%k is this S&^t ...this is the track you want to listen too...  https://tidal.com/browse/track/93436725 Still Loving You - Scorpions


I prefaced it by saying it was not great music, just a good test track lol. A young employee of mine mentioned it mostly because of the percussion.
A great album by the way.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I prefaced it by saying it was not great music, just a good test track lol. A young employee of mine mentioned it mostly because of the percussion.


Yup ..you did... I should've picked that up. Not that you need it but, your back in my graces...   (mind you i just downed a 32 ounce beer so forgive my forwardness) yeah, light weight   

So Who else got something in the mail today!!                         Anybody??                                 come on!!!     Share!!!


----------



## Dave01236

Good and bad news my friends.. my Woo WA22 is now in working condition with a new fuse, and I found the guilty tube. And unfortunately it is my very expensive rectifier, the takatsuki 274B.  What happened absolutely shocked me, as I've never seen that happen before. It didn't glow in the first 10 seconds when I inserted the tube, then all of a sudden it started glowing VERY, VERY brightly. It's like turning on a lightbulb in your bathroom or something. That's how I would describe what happened. No it did not glow as bright (obviously!) , but the way it started glowing is exactly the same. Then, there were sparkles inside the tube. Like fireworks. 

The tube is supposed to have 50-100 hours on it, according to the seller. Hmmmm. 1000$ CAD flushed down the drain. I asked the seller if he still had a warranty but I expect not really, as this is a used tube. I hope nothing bad will happen to my takatsuki 300B'S!!!

By the way I should recieve the MELZ either tomorrow or monday. I cannot wait!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Dave01236 said:


> Good and bad news my friends.. my Woo WA22 is now in working condition with a new fuse, and I found the guilty tube. And unfortunately it is my very expensive rectifier, the takatsuki 274B.  What happened absolutely shocked me, as I've never seen that happen before. It didn't glow in the first 10 seconds when I inserted the tube, then all of a sudden it started glowing VERY, VERY brightly. It's like turning on a lightbulb in your bathroom or something. That's how I would describe what happened. No it did not glow as bright (obviously!) , but the way it started glowing is exactly the same. Then, there were sparkles inside the tube. Like fireworks.
> 
> The tube is supposed to have 50-100 hours on it, according to the seller. Hmmmm. 1000$ CAD flushed down the drain. I asked the seller if he still had a warranty but I expect not really, as this is a used tube. I hope nothing bad will happen to my takatsuki 300B'S!!!
> 
> By the way I should recieve the MELZ either tomorrow or monday. I cannot wait!!!


Not all that familiar with rectifiers, do those need to be biased? Or is your Woo Audio self biased?


----------



## bcowen

Dave01236 said:


> Good and bad news my friends.. my Woo WA22 is now in working condition with a new fuse, and I found the guilty tube. And unfortunately it is my very expensive rectifier, the takatsuki 274B.  What happened absolutely shocked me, as I've never seen that happen before. It didn't glow in the first 10 seconds when I inserted the tube, then all of a sudden it started glowing VERY, VERY brightly. It's like turning on a lightbulb in your bathroom or something. That's how I would describe what happened. No it did not glow as bright (obviously!) , but the way it started glowing is exactly the same. Then, there were sparkles inside the tube. Like fireworks.
> 
> The tube is supposed to have 50-100 hours on it, according to the seller. Hmmmm. 1000$ CAD flushed down the drain. I asked the seller if he still had a warranty but I expect not really, as this is a used tube. I hope nothing bad will happen to my takatsuki 300B'S!!!
> 
> By the way I should recieve the MELZ either tomorrow or monday. I cannot wait!!!



Your rectifier has a short.  I'm not clear from your description -- did this happen with your first use of this tube after receiving it?  If so, it was either defective to begin with, or it took a hard bump in shipping that caused one or more if the elements to shift and either get close enough to touch or close enough to arc (I suspect the latter due to the fireworks show).  Either way, if this happened on very first use, the seller should be liable for replacement or refund as you did NOT receive a working tube.  His fault or the shipping company's fault is irrelevant -- you didn't get what you paid for.


----------



## Dave01236 (Jun 19, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Your rectifier has a short.  I'm not clear from your description -- did this happen with your first use of this tube after receiving it?  If so, it was either defective to begin with, or it took a hard bump in shipping that caused one or more if the elements to shift and either get close enough to touch or close enough to arc (I suspect the latter due to the fireworks show).  Either way, if this happened on very first use, the seller should be liable for replacement or refund as you did NOT receive a working tube.  His fault or the shipping company's fault is irrelevant -- you didn't get what you paid for.



I wish this happened the day I recieved it! Unfortunately not, the tube worked perfectly for a few days. I turned the amp on, left my house for a few hours, came back. I noticed the amp had no power. Tried to turn it on, nothing at all. The tube caused the fuse to fail (which is a very good thing) swapped the fuse for a new one yesterday, then it's literally fireworks inside the tube. It died infront my very own eyes! But at least my amp still works perfectly so I am relieved.


----------



## JKDJedi

Dave01236 said:


> I wish this happened the day I recieved it! Unfortunately not, the tube worked perfectly for a few days. I turned the amp on, left my house for a few hours, came back. I noticed the amp had no power. Tried to turn it on, nothing at all. The tube caused the fuse to fail (which is a very good thing) swapped the fuse for a new one yesterday, then it's literally fireworks inside the tube. It died infront my very own eyes! But at least my amp still works perfectly so I am relieved.


You turned the amp on and left the house? O.o


----------



## Dave01236

JKDJedi said:


> You turned the amp on and left the house? O.o



I was going to listen to some music when I came back. That was only for a few hours, just enough time for the tubes to be fully warmed up. And yes I know, 30 minutes is usually enough. To be honest, even if I was infront of my computer when it happened, it wouldn't have made a difference. As far as I know, amps/tubes shouldn't burn your house down when they fail. I certainly hope so.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 20, 2020)

I came across this tube from a seller I know, made by National Union. I have several with the NU name on them but this is not a bad buy considering it has free shipping. One warning though, he lists tubes as good, and strong. One might get a years playing time out of this tube but the price is certainly reasonable.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-So...835972?hash=item3b48d2a984:g:lHgAAOSwsc5e5T0L

Tubes like that with the NU name can oftentimes run $40-$50.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Natio...brand=National&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851


----------



## thomaskong78

Another happy new user of 1578


*mid40sguy*
124 posts
06-20-2020 7:10pm
My pair of 1980 Melz 1578 from Olga arrived yesterday. After playing 8-10 hours background music in our living room system I sat down to listen.
WOW!
I'm ordering another set of Metz 1578 now. I also ordered a pair of 1954 Metz 6N8S.
What I noticed…. depth, focus and groove. I'm not a huge Kraftwork fan but listening to Tour De France (2009) remaster (M) Tidal I was unable to surf the internet the music kept drawing me in!
Thanks for the heads up Thomas


----------



## cddc (Apr 20, 2022)

Deleted previous writing on "the biggest lie", sorry for the wrong info. I wrote it before I took a deep dive into testers.

The conversion table that translates TV-7 test results into Micromhos is incorrect, it will understate 6SN7 Mutual Conductance by 400 Micromhos or more. If you see TV-7 results in Micromhos, they must be wrong because the conversion table is wrong, so you'd better ask for the original TV-7 test numbers. Also, 104 is *not* the 100% NOS value of 6SN7.

"*The TV-7 minimum recommended value (65%) for each plate of the 6SN7 type tube is 50.*" is a correct statement, as it's coming from the U.S. Department of Defense. The U.S. Department of Defense issued the TV-7 datasheet booklet, on the booklet they gave out the minimum good value for each type of tubes, which is 65% of NOS.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> This is a 6SN7 thread, so I think I should also post here:
> ================================================
> 
> 
> ...


 Was it something I said?


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Was it something I said?



What did you say?....I have no idea


----------



## Paladin79

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-MELZ-6...434383?hash=item3da4c5d80f:g:5tEAAOSwe~Ze3mRR

I happened upon this tube and currently own enough of of the 63's to be happy for a while but this could be an excellent buy for one of you. I do not know the seller and cannot address how strongly this tube tests but it has the right indicators and is worth taking a chance on IMHO. Oftentimes these tubes fetch $120-$130.


----------



## mourip

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-MELZ-6...434383?hash=item3da4c5d80f:g:5tEAAOSwe~Ze3mRR
> 
> I happened upon this tube and currently own enough of of the 63's to be happy for a while but this could be an excellent buy for one of you. I do not know the seller and cannot address how strongly this tube tests but it has the right indicators and is worth taking a chance on IMHO. Oftentimes these tubes fetch $120-$130.



Boy. That went fast. If anyone here bought it and found a second one to use with it let us know your thoughts!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 22, 2020)

mourip said:


> Boy. That went fast. If anyone here bought it and found a second one to use with it let us know your thoughts!


I know a lot of people and one friend had been asking me if I had extras but mine disappear pretty quickly in amps I build for friends, and I have been known to run four in a Freya +. I own 1578's covering three decades but only but the 63's when I can find them. The others have more pronounced midrange but I am not quite as happy with the highs. The 63 is more balanced over all yet the mids are still wonderful.


----------



## thomaskong78

I ordered Kenrad vt 231 tube from Ebay dealer " vascotube " or "tube tech" on June 5th Thursday.

Most Ebay dealer ship the item on next day or following day.

But this guy did not show any shipping information by Saturday.

Thus i sent request to give tracking information. 

But no response from him.

After going through his measurement " TUBE1) 90/112TUBE2) 100/120 ",  I got the impression that this tube is not matched well.

Thus on Sunday I sent him to cancel this order if it had not been shipped.

But no response from him either.

On Monday, I gave him final ultimatum, if he does not respond to his reply, then I will leave negative feedback on him.

But I got no response by 6PM eastern time, thus I left negative feedback on him at his Ebay site.

Then he contacted me and asked me to start return process instead of his cancelling unshipped order.


I started return process but he refused to agree to return proceedure unless I change the feedback on him.

I told him that you had not responded to my three inquires for more than 48 hours.

Thus i can not change my feedback out of my conscience.

He then found out that I am an Asian and gave me racial slur against Asian.

I had tried to resolve this case peacefully.

I told him that if he give me sincere apology about racial slur and cancel the order from his unshipped item, then I will close the case.

But no response for more than 10 days.


I had bought lot of things including Nos tubes in Ebay, but had not had any problem with anyone except this guy.

Most other dealers gave response to my inquiry within 12 hours.

But this guy did not respond to my three inquiries for more than 48 hours.

And then he made a racial slur against me.

I am going to file racial discrimination suit against him.

Stay away from Ebay dealer " vascotube "


Thomas


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> I ordered Kenrad vt 231 tube from Ebay dealer " vascotube " or "tube tech" on June 5th Thursday.
> 
> Most Ebay dealer ship the item on next day or following day.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you had to go through something like that, lot of tension with everything that's going on in the world. He might have shipped that tube after all. Some dealers are really busy sometimes and should answer you promptly if they can. If he did send you the tube just take it and don't deal with him anymore. Not worth the squeeze to prove a point sometimes. Good luck with that tube, and keep us posted.


----------



## thomaskong78

JKDJedi said:


> I'm sorry you had to go through something like that, lot of tension with everything that's going on in the world. He might have shipped that tube after all. Some dealers are really busy sometimes and should answer you promptly if they can. If he did send you the tube just take it and don't deal with him anymore. Not worth the squeeze to prove a point sometimes. Good luck with that tube, and keep us posted.


He did not send tube but refused to return the money either.

He is a terrible guy.

I told him that if you can not respond to inquiry within 24 hours, then you shall not sell the items at Ebay.

I will let him pay for racial slur against me.


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> He did not send tube but refused to return the money either.
> 
> He is a terrible guy.
> 
> ...


Sometimes you can win by losing.


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jun 22, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Sometimes you can win by losing.


I can tolerate late shipping and response but not racial slur.

I will do my best to kick him out of Ebay seller unless he express sincere apology to me.


----------



## LoryWiv

thomaskong78 said:


> He did not send tube but refused to return the money either.
> 
> He is a terrible guy.
> 
> ...


With the world trying to educate and elevate itself, this guy must be living under a rock to make a remark about ethnicity as if somehow that is relevant. I am truly sorry you had to endure a racial slur.


----------



## thomaskong78

LoryWiv said:


> With the world trying to educate and elevate itself, this guy must be living under a rock to make a remark about ethnicity as if somehow that is relevant. I am truly sorry you had to endure a racial slur.


This is the mail that I sent him last Friday but no response.

He does not seem to realize what he had done wrong.




Re: Racial discrimination suit

Hi

Out of grace, I am going to give you the last chance.

If you express sincere apology about racial slur  and cancel the order of Kenrac vt231 on your side by 6PM, Friday 19th, 

then I will settle this case as solved.


If not, I will post your racial slur in three audio forums where I am well known member.

Also I will ask my attorney to file racial discrimination suit against you next week.


The fact that I gave you chance for leniency and you did not accept it will go agains you at the court proceeding.


Be wise young man.


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> This is the mail that I sent him last Friday but no response.
> 
> He does not seem to realize what he had done wrong.
> 
> ...



This may or may not help but if you paid by PayPal they used to act on the customer's side and might still do that. I had a seller who did not send me a product and PayPal shut down his ability to use them until the seller corrected the problem. This was a while back but you might have some recourse as far as the seller not refunding your money. If you paid by credit card you can dispute the purchase on the card and more often than not, you will not be charged.


----------



## thomaskong78

Paladin79 said:


> This may or may not help but if you paid by PayPal they used to act on the customer's side and might still do that. I had a seller who did not send me a product and PayPal shut down his ability to use them until the seller corrected the problem. This was a while back but you might have some recourse as far as the seller not refunding your money. If you paid by credit card you can dispute the purchase on the card and more often than not, you will not be charged.


I used Paypal thus i can go into it.

Now the more serious thing can happen to him.

If he does not express sincere apology, then I will send his racial slur to Ebay to stop his status of seller.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> This may or may not help but if you paid by PayPal they used to act on the customer's side and might still do that. I had a seller who did not send me a product and PayPal shut down his ability to use them until the seller corrected the problem. This was a while back but you might have some recourse as far as the seller not refunding your money. If you paid by credit card you can dispute the purchase on the card and more often than not, you will not be charged.


And eBay is usually good with such claims, there's a grace period where you can try to resolve disputes before they come in. I've never had to go that far.....never... .honest!


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> I used Paypal thus i can go into it.
> 
> Now the more serious thing can happen to him.
> 
> If he does not express sincere apology, then I will send his racial slur to Ebay to stop his status of seller.


If you don't mind me asking...what exactly did he say?


----------



## Paladin79

thomaskong78 said:


> I used Paypal thus i can go into it.
> 
> Now the more serious thing can happen to him.
> 
> If he does not express sincere apology, then I will send his racial slur to Ebay to stop his status of seller.


You do have quite a bit of power in this situation, that guy sells a lot of product on Ebay and either Ebay kicking him off or PayPal shutting him off till the situation is resolved would hurt his business considerably.


----------



## thomaskong78

JKDJedi said:


> If you don't mind me asking...what exactly did he say?


I do not want to have his dirty words open in public..

Those words will be sent to Ebay or open during court action only.


----------



## JKDJedi

thomaskong78 said:


> I do not want to have his dirty words open in public..
> 
> Those words will be sent to Ebay or open during court action only.


Copy.


----------



## SHIMACM

Who compared the Melz 1578 to the Ken Rad Vt231 which one you choose as your favorite? Paladin79, with their blind listening group, chose Ken Rad as the best. ThomasKong78 said that Melz is the best. So, but someone who had the opportunity to compare the two? If so, do you have a favorite?


----------



## cddc

thomaskong78 said:


> I ordered Kenrad vt 231 tube from Ebay dealer " vascotube " or "tube tech" on June 5th Thursday.
> 
> Most Ebay dealer ship the item on next day or following day.
> 
> ...



Being racism is definitely unacceptable. All companies (including eBay) have strict rules against racism and discrimination. Report to eBay, I'm pretty sure eBay will straighten things out.

Just checked the seller " vascotube ", he is quite expensive on tubes. A run-of-the-mill Sylvania GTA can be priced at $70ish with him/her, I won't buy from the seller in the first place.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Being racism is definitely unacceptable. All companies (including eBay) have strict rules against racism and discrimination. Report to eBay, I'm pretty sure eBay will straighten things out.
> 
> Just checked the seller " vascotube ", he is quite expensive on tubes. A run-of-the-mill Sylvania GTA can be priced at $70ish with him/her, I won't buy from the seller in the first place.



Agree that @thomaskong78 should report this to Ebay regardless of the next steps. If he's been communicating with this loser seller through Ebay's messaging, they'll have a record of it all anyway. ALWAYS use Ebay's messaging in these situations...just gives further protection with them having all the correspondence recorded.  

I've had a bad run of tube luck here recently. Tubes never sent, tubes pure garbage, tubes lost in the mail, and a pair of Chatham 6AS7G's I just got today and one with a dead short in it...even an arc flash spot inside the bottle indicating it shorted or arced before it was ever sent.  In every case so far, Ebay has refunded my money quickly.  DON'T file a refund request with both Ebay and PayPal at the same time.  Use one or the other, otherwise they ping-pong it back and forth and while you'll still get a refund, it just takes a good bit longer. Ebay is quicker with refunds than PayPal.  Just wish I didn't know that from experience. 

Regardless of the monetary issue(s) the racial slur is unforgivable, even with an apology IMO.  Take the guy out.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Agree that @thomaskong78 should report this to Ebay regardless of the next steps. If he's been communicating with this loser seller through Ebay's messaging, they'll have a record of it all anyway. ALWAYS use Ebay's messaging in these situations...just gives further protection with them having all the correspondence recorded.
> 
> I've had a bad run of tube luck here recently. Tubes never sent, tubes pure garbage, tubes lost in the mail, and a pair of Chatham 6AS7G's I just got today and one with a dead short in it...even an arc flash spot inside the bottle indicating it shorted or arced before it was ever sent.  In every case so far, Ebay has refunded my money quickly.  DON'T file a refund request with both Ebay and PayPal at the same time.  Use one or the other, otherwise they ping-pong it back and forth and while you'll still get a refund, it just takes a good bit longer. Ebay is quicker with refunds than PayPal.  Just wish I didn't know that from experience.
> 
> Regardless of the monetary issue(s) the racial slur is unforgivable, even with an apology IMO.  Take the guy out.


Well said, and I would never slur your beloved Duke team, you can count on that! I believe PayPal was owned by EBay when I had to shut a seller down in order to get my product. It was around Christmas so the seller was frantic to help.


----------



## attmci

thomaskong78 said:


> I ordered Kenrad vt 231 tube from Ebay dealer " vascotube " or "tube tech" on June 5th Thursday.
> 
> Most Ebay dealer ship the item on next day or following day.
> 
> ...


You should call the eBay directly.


----------



## Roasty

Managed to get a pair of the Melz 1578 from a local seller. NOS for USD180.








They have a nice full bass and mid bass, but not very tight or punchy. Good highs with decent air and clarity. Perhaps things will improve after running them for some time. At the moment, I find the Mullard ECC35 are still my best tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

Pa
[QUOTE="Roasty said:


> Managed to get a pair of the Melz 1578 from a local seller. NOS for USD180.
> 
> 
> 
> They have a nice full bass and mid bass, but not very tight or punchy. Good highs with decent air and clarity. Perhaps things will improve after running them for some time. At the moment, I find the Mullard ECC35 are still my best tubes.


what year are they?


----------



## Roasty

Paladin79 said:


> what year are they?



Good question. I don't know. How do u tell?


----------



## Wes S

Roasty said:


> Managed to get a pair of the Melz 1578 from a local seller. NOS for USD180.
> 
> 
> 
> They have a nice full bass and mid bass, but not very tight or punchy. Good highs with decent air and clarity. Perhaps things will improve after running them for some time. At the moment, I find the Mullard ECC35 are still my best tubes.


Would love to hear your thoughts on the mids with the Melz 1578, when you get some more time with them.  That is the only top-tier 6SN7 that I am lacking in my collection, and really want to hear one soon.


----------



## Roasty

Wes S said:


> Would love to hear your thoughts on the mids with the Melz 1578, when you get some more time with them.  That is the only top-tier 6SN7 that I am lacking in my collection, and really want to hear one soon.



Will do. Am running them in now. 

Curious what are the top tier tubes in your list/regard?
I recently tried to get a pair of TS bgrp but didn't manage to.
I have TS bad boy, Ken Rad bg vt231, TS tall boy (cheap, but surprisingly good for the money!), raytheon vt231, and ecc35 mullard.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 24, 2020)

Roasty said:


> Good question. I don't know. How do u tell?


A two digit number in the lower right of the Melz logo tells the year.

Did you mean Sylvania bad boy?


----------



## Wes S

Roasty said:


> Will do. Am running them in now.
> 
> Curious what are the top tier tubes in your list/regard?
> I recently tried to get a pair of TS bgrp but didn't manage to.
> I have TS bad boy, Ken Rad bg vt231, TS tall boy (cheap, but surprisingly good for the money!), raytheon vt231, and ecc35 mullard.


Cool thanks!  

My top tier 6SN7 tubes that I own -

1.  Brimar CV1988 Black Glass w/ Brown & Black base
2.  Tung Sol  BGRP
3.  Sylvania Bad Boy 52'
4.  Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle
5.  KenRad Black and Clear Glass VT231
6.  National Union Grey Glass
6.  RCA Grey Glass 40's  
7.  Westinghouse 6SN7GTB Black Plate D Getter


----------



## Roasty

Wow your top 1 and 2 are what I'm looking for! The brimar cv1988 are priced really high...!


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Cool thanks!
> 
> My top tier 6SN7 tubes that I own -
> 
> ...


A nice list, I have heard all except for the National Union grey glass, I own several black glass.


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> A nice list, I have heard all except for the National Union grey glass, I own several black glass.


Thanks!  I am really enjoying them, in my Bottlehead Crack.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 24, 2020)

Roasty said:


> Wow your top 1 and 2 are what I'm looking for! The brimar cv1988 are priced really high...!


They sure are, at the moment.  I did see a Brimar CV1988 single sell for $80 a couple of days ago, so there are good deals every now and then.  Of all my 6SN7's, the Tung Sol BGRP is my current fav, and the mids are damn near perfection.


----------



## Paladin79

Roasty said:


> Wow your top 1 and 2 are what I'm looking for! The brimar cv1988 are priced really high...!


Try shopping for GEC B65's, or Marconi's, everything is relative.


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Thanks!  I am really enjoying them, in my Bottlehead Crack.


Is your Bottlehead crack standard or has it had modifications?


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> Is your Bottlehead crack standard or has it had modifications?


It has speedball, and an Alps Blue Velvet Pot, and the rest is stock.


----------



## LoryWiv

Roasty said:


> Will do. Am running them in now.
> 
> Curious what are the top tier tubes in your list/regard?
> I recently tried to get a pair of TS bgrp but didn't manage to.
> I have TS bad boy, Ken Rad bg vt231, TS tall boy (cheap, but surprisingly good for the money!), raytheon vt231, and *ecc35 mullard.*


Is ECC35 a compatible / drop in replacement for other 6SN7's?


----------



## Ripper2860

I thought ECC35 was a 6SL7 variant.


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> Try shopping for GEC B65's, or Marconi's, everything is relative.


Been there and tried to do that, but I gave up on the B65's as those are never coming down in price and I sure as heck have never found a deal on one.  I sure would love to hear one though. . .


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 24, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Been there and tried to do that, but I gave up on the B65's as those are never coming down in price and I sure as heck have never found a deal on one.  I sure would love to hear one though. . .


Both will be a part of some blind 6sn7 equivalent tests I am involved with, whenever we feel safe meeting in a group of fifty people. Only 52 tubes were deemed worthy but those two brands certainly were. Luckily my group can put together some of the top equipment around from within its ranks, DAC's, Amps, speakers, pre-amps and I cannot go to any one audio showroom to hear such equipment, and switch between them for blind listening. It is always fun to see a Topping DS7 DAC finish above items costing ten times the price lol.

Being in the trade, I rarely pay much for my audio gear and if patient, most anything I want comes my way sooner or later. Tubes are another story though and they are finite items, no matter how good an investment, I hate to pay $2000 for something a cat (Finnegan) might knock off a table or that I would not want to use because of its value. Even in borrowing something like that from others I certainly worry something might happen.


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> Both will be a part of some blind 6sn7 equivalent tests I am involved with, whenever we feel safe meeting in a group of fifty people. Only 52 tubes were deemed worthy but those two brands certainly were. Luckily my group can put together some of the top equipment around from within its ranks, DAC's, Amps, speakers, pre-amps and I cannot go to any one audio showroom to hear such equipment, and switch between them for blind listening. It is always fun to see a Topping DS7 DAC finish above items costing ten times the price lol.
> 
> Being in the trade, I rarely pay much for my audio gear and if patient, most anything I want comes my way sooner or later. Tubes are another story though and they are finite items, no matter how good an investment, I hate to pay $2000 for something a cat (Finnegan) might knock off a table or that I would not want to use because of its value. Even in borrowing something like that from others I certainly worry something might happen.


Man!  I sure would love to take part in that blind 6SN7 test.  I have heard quite a few tubes in my day, but have never tried anything like that.  For me and my tube rolling, I usually stick with 1 tube for at least a couple of weeks to a month, and this allows me to get a good feel for what the tube is actually doing, and if I am not satisfied by then it is time to roll another.  So, it would be interesting to see if I could figure things out on the spot.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 24, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Man!  I sure would love to take part in that blind 6SN7 test.  I have heard quite a few tubes in my day, but have never tried anything like that.  For me and my tube rolling, I usually stick with 1 tube for at least a couple of weeks to a month, and this allows me to get a good feel for what the tube is actually doing, and if I am not satisfied by then it is time to roll another.  So, it would be interesting to see if I could figure things out on the spot.


I no longer run the group, we are limited to two years each or I would try to get you in. You hear the same music for each tube and the sounds highlight 25 criteria. Top score of 100 on a four point system. At the end if you have any you want to compare head to head you can do that. We will switch between four tubes at a time using four identical amps I designed that are made to showcase tube sound. I also gifted one to @bcowen since he knows tubes and has shared many with me. You may have heard us speak of the Incubus amp, that is the one.


----------



## LoryWiv

Wes S said:


> Man!  I sure would love to take part in that blind 6SN7 test.  I have heard quite a few tubes in my day, but have never tried anything like that.  For me and my tube rolling, I usually *stick with 1 tube for at least a couple of weeks to a month*, and this allows me to get a good feel for what the tube is actually doing, and if I am not satisfied by then it is time to roll another.  So, it would be interesting to see if I could figure things out on the spot.


I admire your discipline. For myself, I find that I'll go a few weeks with a tube set I'm enjoying then get the "itch" and commence tube rolling ADHD, in which I may change them out twice in a given day just to allow comparison whilst things are fresh in memory. That said, I may not be giving each set enough time for settling in, for brain burn-in or whatever alchemy happens to allow a fair assessment.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 24, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> I admire your discipline. For myself, I find that I'll go a few weeks with a tube set I'm enjoying then get the "itch" and commence tube rolling ADHD, in which I may change them out twice in a given day just to allow comparison whilst things are fresh in memory. That said, I may not be giving each set enough time for settling in, for brain burn-in or whatever alchemy happens to allow a fair assessment.


I am consistently changing out tubes in various amps in home use but when I compare  it is hard for me to say, oh yea that tube I heard two months ago was better or worse than the one I am listening to now lol. In the tube challenge you are A/Bing them and each section of music is probably five minutes long so you have a bit of time for your ears to adjust as you switch back and forth. There is also the strength of numbers, forty nine people listening and scoring the tubes as well as yourself. In the end you may be close to the final average or way off but you give your opinion without knowing brand, cost, type of tube, whatever. We use 6sn7 equivalents so you might here two 6j5's, or 7A4's, or a 5692 etc.
Hear what others think of a tube, or know a tube is arriving you just paid $250 for and your perspective changes. Hear a $2,000 knowing what it is you have in front of you, are you going to score it worse than a known $20 tube. Blind listening is important to eliminate bias.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Both will be a part of some blind 6sn7 equivalent tests I am involved with, whenever we feel safe meeting in a group of fifty people. Only 52 tubes were deemed worthy but those two brands certainly were. Luckily my group can put together some of the top equipment around from within its ranks, DAC's, Amps, speakers, pre-amps and I cannot go to any one audio showroom to hear such equipment, and switch between them for blind listening. It is always fun to see a Topping DS7 DAC finish above items costing ten times the price lol.
> 
> Being in the trade, I rarely pay much for my audio gear and if patient, most anything I want comes my way sooner or later. Tubes are another story though and they are finite items, no matter how good an investment, I hate to pay $2000 for something a cat (Finnegan) might knock off a table or that I would not want to use because of its value. Even in borrowing something like that from others I certainly worry something might happen.


Tom, Can u use a 12V tube in your new amp?


----------



## attmci

Roasty said:


> Good question. I don't know. How do u tell?


96-97. It's on your tube.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Tom, Can u use a 12V tube in your new amp?


Not unless there is an adapter made for it but generally it is easier to use a tube requiring a 6 volt filament in a 12 volt circuit.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Not unless there is an adapter made for it but generally it is easier to use a tube requiring a 6 volt filament in a 12 volt circuit.


Glenn's OTL can do that.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Glenn's OTL can do that.


I can add a switch and add the circuit but the amp was designed for a 6sn7 challenge, I have built others with different capabilities but no one has asked for usage with 12 volt tubes yet.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I can add a switch and add the circuit but the amp was designed for a 6sn7 challenge, I have built others with different capabilities but no one has asked for usage with 12 volt tubes yet.


The original discussion can be found here, about 9 years ago. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/page-97


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 24, 2020)

attmci said:


> The original discussion can be found here, about 9 years ago.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/page-97


Interesting, I have never given it a lot of thought. This is just a weekend hobby for me and I have only built about 20 amps of this style since the first of the year. I have done a few to friends specs but it can be grueling.  Of those 20 I gave away six to friends.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can add a switch and add the circuit but the amp was designed for a 6sn7 challenge, I have built others with different capabilities but no one has asked for usage with 12 volt tubes yet.



How about a 25 volt tube?  I bought one by mistake.  I know, I know....trying to grasp the thought of me making a mistake is difficult at best, but I'm blaming it on the cat.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2020)

bcowen said:


> How about a 25 volt tube?  I bought one by mistake.  I know, I know....trying to grasp the thought of me making a mistake is difficult at best, but I'm blaming it on the cat.


Sure blame the cat. I blame whoever is supposed to be watching you so you do not buy spurious tubes. See why I gifted this man an amp, can you imagine giving such a person choices?? 

Normally you design a circuit to work with a certain tube type and it is possible to make allowances so you can use other tubes but just plugging them in is not something I like to do if their gain is now lower or whatever. If you bias a tube incorrectly you can greatly shorten that tubes life, it has been years since I studied tube theory but I want to say that is hot biasing. Doing things like using two single triode tubes is fine for replacing a 6sn7, each has half the gain so the end result is the same. Substituting a 6 volt tube in a 12 volt circuit can be allowed for and there are adapters for that exact purpose.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sure blame the cat. I blame whoever is supposed to be watching you so you do not buy spurious tubes. See why I gifted this man an amp, can you imagine giving such a person choices??
> 
> Normally you design a circuit to work with a certain tube type and it is possible to make allowances so you can use other tubes but just plugging them in is not something I like to do if their gain is now lower or whatever. If you bias a tube incorrectly you can greatly shorten that tubes life, it has been years since I studied tube theory but I want to say that is hot biasing. Doing things like using two single triode tubes is fine for replacing a 6sn7, each has half the gain so the end result is the same. Substituting a 6 volt tube in a 12 volt circuit can be allowed for and there are adapters for that exact purpose.



So what you're saying then is I shouldn't proceed with the 211 tube adapter I was making for the Incubus?   .


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2020)

bcowen said:


> So what you're saying then is I shouldn't proceed with the 211 tube adapter I was making for the Incubus?   .


I may need to re-write the warranty on your free amp, so that one of us (me) is not constantly having to fix said amp each time you blow it up. Other than say a Psvane driver and Cetron power tube, you should get my written permission before changing any tubes.


----------



## denniswaugh (Jun 25, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Is ECC35 a compatible / drop in replacement for other 6SN7's?


The ECC35 is equivalent to a 6SL7, a higher gain tube than the 6SN7.
It is compatible with my WA22 but you should check compatibility with your amp.

The Mullard ECC35 is amongst my favourite driver tubes together with Tung Sol BGRP and the Melz 1578.
IMO the Mullard ECC35 and the Tung Sol BGRP are very similar in their sound presentation, i.e, detailed, articulate, engaging and for want of a better word "euphoric".
The Melz has a drier presentation. Bass is a little lighter than the ECC35 and TS, a very detailed and spacious midrange with a precise top end. I imagine the sound more like SS than tube.
I've given up trying to decide which one I like best. Over the past 4 years I've chopped and changed between these driver tubes. They are all great tubes.
This months favourite is the Melz but I know in a month or so I will be drawn back to the ECC35 or TSrp. That's the beauty of owning a tube amp.
I use the above tubes with WE422 rectifier and either TS 5998 or GEC 6AS7G power tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

denniswaugh said:


> The ECC35 is equivalent to a 6SL7, a higher gain tube than the 6SN7.
> It is compatible with my WA22 but you should check compatibility with your amp.
> 
> The Mullard ECC35 is amongst my favourite driver tubes together with Tung Sol BGRP and the Melz 1578.
> ...


What year is the Melz 1578 you are describing?  I agree with most of your statements except sounding like solid state but then you may have an 80’s version perhaps?


----------



## denniswaugh




----------



## denniswaugh

Not sure of the year


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2020)

denniswaugh said:


>


That sure looks like a 59 within the Melz logo, and much higher getter flash than I have seen before. I must own four tube amps that sound solid state to me with most any tube so I certainly would not question your description. All of your other points about the tube were spot on IMHO.


----------



## denniswaugh

Yes it's 59 within the logo and I assume the other stamps (2&14) possibly being month and day of manufacture.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2020)

Could be, and my favorites come from about that time so most likely you have a wonderful example. The solder inside the pins can break down, even on the newer Melz so I hope you do not experience any noise in that tube. If so it may well be repairable. With proper technique that is, here I am dripping liquid solder flux inside each pin so I am assured the new solder I add will adhere properly.


----------



## denniswaugh

Paladin79 said:


> Could be, and my favorites come from about that time so most likely you have a wonderful example. The solder inside the pins can break down, even on the newer Melz so I hope you do not experience any noise in that tube. If so it may well be repairable.


Its funny you mention this. I purchased these a about 5 years ago and when I plugged them in, one of them made horrendous popping and crackling noises. It  never improved with time so I ended up sticking them in a drawer for 2 years or so. I was rather pis***d off with one of them being a duff. 
Somewhere I must have come across a suggestion to re solder the pins. This I did and it worked.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2020)

denniswaugh said:


> Its funny you mention this. I purchased these a about 5 years ago and when I plugged them in, one of them made horrendous popping and crackling noises. It  never improved with time so I ended up sticking them in a drawer for 2 years or so. I was rather pis***d off with one of them being a duff.
> Somewhere I must have come across a suggestion to re solder the pins. This I did and it worked.


Yep, and some folks re-flow the old solder and that is better than nothing but since I know whatever the Russians were using to be historically bad on the Melz and Fotons, I remove the old, do a thorough cleaning, then add new solder with a 3% silver content. I do not want to be faced with the same situation down the road lol.

Oh yeah, I am impressed with your tube selection, especially the power tubes.


----------



## denniswaugh

Paladin79 said:


> Yep, and some folks re-flow the old solder and that is better than nothing but since I know whatever the Russians were using to be historically bad on the Melz and Fotons, I remove the old, do a thorough cleaning, then add new solder with a 3% silver content. I do not want to be faced with the same situation down the road lol.
> 
> Oh yeah, I am impressed with your tube selection, especially the power tubes.


Re: power tubes. 
I know this is the 6sn7 thread but I'll quickly mention that I've tried many manufactures 6080's and Russian c wing 6as7g in my Wa22. 
IMO, Nothing beats the TS5998 or the GEC/Marconi/Osram 6as7g.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2020)

denniswaugh said:


> Re: power tubes.
> I know this is the 6sn7 thread but I'll quickly mention that I've tried many manufactures 6080's and Russian c wing 6as7g in my Wa22.
> IMO, Nothing beats the TS5998 or the GEC/Marconi/Osram 6as7g.


I have a few of the Tung Sol 5998's myself, as far as the others, I hate to spend more on one tube than I spent on the total parts in the amps I build lol. I strive for balance.
The tubes you use in conjunction with 6sn7's matter so I do not consider it too far off topic but that is just my opinion. If you can catch any deals on British 6sn7 or 5998 equivalents, you should PM me. If anyone like @bcowen or @Ripper2860 approaches you with the same request, I would run away as if they are contagious.


----------



## denniswaugh

I'm always looking


----------



## Wes S (Jun 25, 2020)

denniswaugh said:


> Re: power tubes.
> I know this is the 6sn7 thread but I'll quickly mention that I've tried many manufactures 6080's and Russian c wing 6as7g in my Wa22.
> IMO, Nothing beats the TS5998 or the GEC/Marconi/Osram 6as7g.


How bout the Bendix 6080WB graphite plate? I am curious if you have you heard that one?  I have the 5998 too, but it can't hold a candle next to the Bendix, for my taste.  Pair the Bendix with a Tung-Sol BGRP, and magic happens.


----------



## denniswaugh

Wes S said:


> How bout the Bendix 6080WB graphite plate? I am curious if you have you heard that one?  I have the 5998 too, but it can't hold a candle next to the Bendix, for my taste.  Pair the Bendix with a Tung-Sol BGRP, and magic happens.


Never did get hold of the Bendix 6080 graphite plate. In the UK its another tube that's impossible to find at a reasonable price.


----------



## Wes S

denniswaugh said:


> Never did get hold of the Bendix 6080 graphite plate. In the UK its another tube that's impossible to find at a reasonable price.


Got ya.  They are on another level compared to all the other 6080's, but are getting harder and harder to find.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 25, 2020)

Wes S said:


> How bout the Bendix 6080WB graphite plate? I am curious if you have you heard that one?  I have the 5998 too, but it can't hold a candle next to the Bendix, for my taste.  Pair the Bendix with a Tung-Sol BGRP, and magic happens.


Canare RCA connectors and boots and their cable or Belden 1505 would be my guess for your interconnects.

Getting back to 6sn7's, I am having a discussion with a Russain on what he believes 1578's are, what he has to say:

Thanks Tom.  On ebay many write to me questions about whether I have tubes of 1578 60s. I explain to everyone that in the 60s there were no 1578 tubes, they appeared in the 70s. In fact, this is all the same 6n8s, but selected from a large batch for the balance of plates in one tube. 

Basically he is explaining when some were marked 1578 starting in the 70's but they are the same tube. This is one person's thought on these, ask someone else, get a different answer I suppose, but this is a gentleman I know and trust and he is careful not to call his 63 Melz 1578's, just trying to be honest. Knowing what kind of solder they had, I would be amazed if very many were well balanced until that was replaced.


----------



## SHIMACM

thomaskong78 said:


> I had been back and forth between Rca vt231 and Kenrad vt231.
> 
> Rca give more spark and air.
> 
> ...



I just bought RCA Vt231 and Ken Rad Vt231 and agree with your impressions. The only observation is that Ken Rad's stage is a little deeper. However, the RCA stage is wider.


----------



## SHIMACM

ThomasKong78 - Was the Ken Rad used in the comparison the transparent glass or the black glass?


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> Canare RCA connectors and boots and their cable or Belden 1505 would be my guess for your interconnects.
> 
> Getting back to 6sn7's, I am having a discussion with a Russain on what he believes 1578's are, what he has to say:
> 
> ...


Pretty close on the interconnects, but they are custom parts made by the same companies (Canare & Belden), for Blue Jeans Cables.


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Pretty close on the interconnects, but they are custom parts made by the same companies (Canare & Belden), for Blue Jeans Cables.


Yeah I know about such things, the 1505 is a Belden number, it should be on those cables, F is stranded center conductor, A is solid copper. The owner of that company is a pretty good guy.

Anyway I am back to listening to some one of a kind RCA 6sn7's, I need to return them soon before Finnegan takes a liking to them and starts batting them around. His face was buried in a pillow last I checked.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 25, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah I know about such things, the 1505 is a Belden number, it should be on those cables, F is stranded center conductor, A is solid copper. The owner of that company is a pretty good guy.
> 
> Anyway I am back to listening to some one of a kind RCA 6sn7's, I need to return them soon before Finnegan takes a liking to them and starts batting them around. His face was buried in a pillow last I checked.


I figured you know a few things about cables.   Not sure they say 1505 on them as these Blue Jeans interconnects are quite a bit thicker than the 1505 cables I bought from them. I was under the impression they had this cable custom made by Belden specifically for Blue Jeans. It has a thicker insulation, and thinner solid copper core, compared to the 1505. Blue Jeans calls this the LC-1.


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> I figured you know a few things about cables.   Not sure they say 1505 on them as these Blue Jeans interconnects are quite a bit thicker than the 1505 cables I bought from them. I was under the impression they had this cable custom made by Belden specifically for Blue Jeans. It has a thicker insulation, and thinner solid copper core, compared to the 1505. Blue Jeans calls this the LC-1.


That could well be, it has been years since I checked their products. Anyway very nice tubes in the BH Crack. 

 I need to get @bcowen's thoughts on the 80's Melz tubes compared to the 63 version I sent him, I recall he was not to thrilled with the 80's for the price, and I gifted him the 63 so maybe that helps with his assessment.


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> That could well be, it has been years since I checked their products. Anyway very nice tubes in the BH Crack.
> 
> I need to get @bcowen's thoughts on the 80's Melz tubes compared to the 63 version I sent him, I recall he was not to thrilled with the 80's for the price, and I gifted him the 63 so maybe that helps with his assessment.


That sure is a nice gift!  63' or 80's. . . I think I would take the 63' without even hearing them.  Older is always better with tubes, so they say.


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> That sure is a nice gift!  63' or 80's. . . I think I would take the 63' without even hearing them.  Older is always better with tubes, so they say.


Oh I just gave him the 63, he did not care for the 80’s versions he bought so I bought them from him.


----------



## LoryWiv

denniswaugh said:


> The ECC35 is equivalent to a 6SL7, a higher gain tube than the 6SN7.
> It is compatible with my WA22 but you should check compatibility with your amp.


Thanks, will do. Is the pin-out different from 6SN7 / adapters needed or do you just mean to check comparability re.: electrical characteristics?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may need to re-write the warranty on your free amp, so that one of us (me) is not constantly having to fix said amp each time you blow it up. Other than say a Psvane driver and Cetron power tube, you should get my written permission before changing any tubes.



Then can you email me a permission slip for this, or do I have to wait for a notarized hard copy in the mail?  Mo' power is mo' better, right?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh I just gave him the 63, he did not care for the 80’s versions he bought so I bought them from him.



Oh I liked the 80's....just didn't like them so much at $100.  But the '63 is much better, especially for the money.


----------



## Dave01236

bcowen said:


> Oh I liked the 80's....just didn't like them so much at $100.  But the '63 is much better, especially for the money.



Much, much better? I've had the 80's for only a couple of days and I'm already a big fan of the midrange of those tubes. I haven't compared them to my stock tubes that came with my amp yet, the shuguang we6sn7, but to be honest I don't think it's worth it. The melz are in another league. As soon as they were in. The first song I listened to. I was already a very happy guy. Good news I found a guy willing to sell me his melz 63's. I am receiving the tung sol ladder plates 6f8g's monday or tuesday though, and I'm not sure if I will prefer the sound of those, I can't wait to try them out. If I'm not a fan of the 6f8g sound, there's a high chance that I get a pair of melz from the 60's! What are your thoughts about the 63's compared to the 80's? What's better?


----------



## denniswaugh

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks, will do. Is the pin-out different from 6SN7 / adapters needed or do you just mean to check comparability re.: electrical characteristics?


Its a drop in replacement. Just check with your amp manufacturer that the electrical characteristics are compatible.


----------



## Paladin79

Dave01236 said:


> Much, much better? I've had the 80's for only a couple of days and I'm already a big fan of the midrange of those tubes. I haven't compared them to my stock tubes that came with my amp yet, the shuguang we6sn7, but to be honest I don't think it's worth it. The melz are in another league. As soon as they were in. The first song I listened to. I was already a very happy guy. Good news I found a guy willing to sell me his melz 63's. I am receiving the tung sol ladder plates 6f8g's monday or tuesday though, and I'm not sure if I will prefer the sound of those, I can't wait to try them out. If I'm not a fan of the 6f8g sound, there's a high chance that I get a pair of melz from the 60's! What are your thoughts about the 63's compared to the 80's? What's better?


The mids are indeed prominent on the 80's version, and Bill can answer this also but I continue to own those tubes from the 60's,70's, and 80's and have spent a lot of time with them. As I recall Bill may have reflowed the solder on his 80's version so that should not have been an issue at the time. I do not claim to have Bill's sense of hearing but the top person I know locally was part of a small group that did a blind listening with me. The consensus was the 63 had a more responsive bass and more realistic mids, both were incredible in the highs. The 70's version was a little closer to the 63 sound. I looked at all three with test equipment and I really did not see much distortion in the mids on the 80's, just a slightly higher level in mid frequencies and a little lower bass.


----------



## bcowen

Dave01236 said:


> Much, much better? I've had the 80's for only a couple of days and I'm already a big fan of the midrange of those tubes. I haven't compared them to my stock tubes that came with my amp yet, the shuguang we6sn7, but to be honest I don't think it's worth it. The melz are in another league. As soon as they were in. The first song I listened to. I was already a very happy guy. Good news I found a guy willing to sell me his melz 63's. I am receiving the tung sol ladder plates 6f8g's monday or tuesday though, and I'm not sure if I will prefer the sound of those, I can't wait to try them out. If I'm not a fan of the 6f8g sound, there's a high chance that I get a pair of melz from the 60's! What are your thoughts about the 63's compared to the 80's? What's better?



Well, 'much' is a relatively subjective term.   And personal preference is even more subjective.  I think the '63 I have is more balanced from top to bottom. The '80's were more forward in the midrange and a bit more aggressive up top (not to the level of being fatiguing at all, just having a bit sharper edge to the notes). The '63 is more evenly balanced across the frequency spectrum.  Hard to say one is 'better' per se as I think a lot depends on preference and ancillary equipment. I'll put it this way:  if I had a choice to buy a '63 or an '80's version for the same price, I'd pick the '63.  If the 80's was, say, 25% less than the '63, I'd go with the '80.  Hope that makes sense and helps some.  I hate trying to assign percentages, but in this case I'll suggest that you're getting probably 90+% of the Melz goodness with the '80s, so how much that extra 10% is worth to you is obviously a personal judgement call. And again, that's just IMO based on a relatively limited listening period.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have a few of the Tung Sol 5998's myself, as far as the others, I hate to spend more on one tube than I spent on the total parts in the amps I build lol. I strive for balance.
> The tubes you use in conjunction with 6sn7's matter so I do not consider it too far off topic but that is just my opinion. If you can catch any deals on British 6sn7 or 5998 equivalents, you should PM me. If anyone like @bcowen or @Ripper2860 approaches you with the same request, I would run away as if they are he was contagious.



Here....I edited this for clarity.  No charge.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> Got ya.  They are on another level compared to all the other 6080's, but are getting harder and harder to find.



I bought a trio of Chatham/TungSol graphite plates...not Bendix(s), but was hoping they'd be close.  Unfortunately they have disappeared into the Charlotte USPS black hole and unlikely to ever be seen again.  

If I bought a GE, it would be in my mailbox tomorrow. But try getting a good tube?  Not gonna happen, at least if it's shipped with the USPS. 

On the plus side, I *did* get a response *today* that they'd received my "Package Search Request" for the missing TungSol 5998 tube.....that I requested back on May 27th (!).  They have become so absurd lately you can't do anything but laugh.


----------



## Dave01236

bcowen said:


> Well, 'much' is a relatively subjective term.   And personal preference is even more subjective.  I think the '63 I have is more balanced from top to bottom. The '80's were more forward in the midrange and a bit more aggressive up top (not to the level of being fatiguing at all, just having a bit sharper edge to the notes). The '63 is more evenly balanced across the frequency spectrum.  Hard to say one is 'better' per se as I think a lot depends on preference and ancillary equipment. I'll put it this way:  if I had a choice to buy a '63 or an '80's version for the same price, I'd pick the '63.  If the 80's was, say, 25% less than the '63, I'd go with the '80.  Hope that makes sense and helps some.  I hate trying to assign percentages, but in this case I'll suggest that you're getting probably 90+% of the Melz goodness with the '80s, so how much that extra 10% is worth to you is obviously a personal judgement call. And again, that's just IMO based on a relatively limited listening period.



You are right, it is indeed personal preference. It is true the 80's have aggressive highs, I have noticed that too. How's the bass with the 63's?


----------



## bcowen

Dave01236 said:


> You are right, it is indeed personal preference. It is true the 80's have aggressive highs, I have noticed that too. How's the bass with the 63's?



The bass in the '63's is one of its more alluring qualities, to me.  It's got that swing and rhythm to it that I hear in many Russian tubes like the Fotons.  Even in these Pinnacle-labeled Russian 6J5's I have that seem to be a source of amusement to a person or two.    Maybe it's more in the mid-to-upper bass where whatever it is that's occurring is occurring. Compared to the Foton the Melz has a little more extension and weight, and is more full bodied.  Neither the Melz or Foton are what I'd label as basshead tubes.  If someone wants to shear the drivers out of their 'phones with elevated subterranean bass hammering, the Melz won't do it. Personally I much prefer bass that has weight and authority with good slam and dynamics....but is not overblown, accentuated, or lacking in definition and the '63 scores pretty highly in that regard to me.  Compared to the '80's?  Hard to say quite honestly.  It's been a while now since I had the '80's, and I don't recall there being a big difference between the two in that area. Most of the difference that stood out to me was in the mids, treble, and overall balance where the '63 edges out the '80.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> I bought a trio of Chatham/TungSol graphite plates...not Bendix(s), but was hoping they'd be close.  Unfortunately they have disappeared into the Charlotte USPS black hole and unlikely to ever be seen again.
> 
> If I bought a GE, it would be in my mailbox tomorrow. But try getting a good tube?  Not gonna happen, at least if it's shipped with the USPS.
> 
> On the plus side, I *did* get a response *today* that they'd received my "Package Search Request" for the missing TungSol 5998 tube.....that I requested back on May 27th (!).  They have become so absurd lately you can't do anything but laugh.


Bummer!  My company works directly with USPS, and I still won't use them myself if given the option.  They need a serious overall!


----------



## bcowen (Jun 27, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Bummer!  My company works directly with USPS, and I still won't use them myself if given the option.  They need a serious overall!



I was reading a story this morning that the Minneapolis city council has voted on legislation to de-fund the police department.  I don't want to even think about starting a discussion on that particular topic -- I only mention it because I have a _*much*_ better idea of something to de-fund.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> I was reading a story this morning that the Minneapolis city council has voted on legislation to de-fund the police department.  I don't want to even think about starting a discussion on that particular topic -- I only mention it because I have a _*much*_ better idea of something to de-fund.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The bass in the '63's is one of its more alluring qualities, to me.  It's got that swing and rhythm to it that I hear in many Russian tubes like the Fotons.  Even in these Pinnacle-labeled Russian 6J5's I have that seem to be a source of amusement to a person or two.    Maybe it's more in the mid-to-upper bass where whatever it is that's occurring is occurring. Compared to the Foton the Melz has a little more extension and weight, and is more full bodied.  Neither the Melz or Foton are what I'd label as basshead tubes.  If someone wants to shear the drivers out of their 'phones with elevated subterranean bass hammering, the Melz won't do it. Personally I much prefer bass that has weight and authority with good slam and dynamics....but is not overblown, accentuated, or lacking in definition and the '63 scores pretty highly in that regard to me.  Compared to the '80's?  Hard to say quite honestly.  It's been a while now since I had the '80's, and I don't recall there being a big difference between the two in that area. Most of the difference that stood out to me was in the mids, treble, and overall balance where the '63 edges out the '80.


I do not get the 80's out real often but I will try to do that today after I get some work done on an amp or two plus a couple side projects. I have only heard the 80's in other amps so I will give an 80 and 63 an A/B test in some identical Incubus amps today. I tend to borrow some test equipment from an engineering lab but I still have a few things in my shop that will give an accurate appraisal. I generally have help so that can make things go a little faster.

My wife has taken over part of my shop with pottery so, I should not get yelled at too much if I set up a few things in the family room, she may not even notice.


----------



## Wes S

Got to love the look of @Deyan 's adapters!  I really love how the color scheme even matches my amp.   It is also nice knowing it is a high quality point to point wired adapter, that makes tube rolling a breeze.  Bravo!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do not get the 80's out real often but I will try to do that today after I get some work done on an amp or two plus a couple side projects. I have only heard the 80's in other amps so I will give an 80 and 63 an A/B test in some identical Incubus amps today. I tend to borrow some test equipment from an engineering lab but I still have a few things in my shop that will give an accurate appraisal. I generally have help so that can make things go a little faster.
> 
> My wife has taken over part of my shop with pottery so, I should not get yelled at too much if I set up a few things in the family room, she may not even notice.



I'm betting that turntable would sound a lot better if you hooked it up.  But engineering is not my forte'.


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> I do not get the 80's out real often but I will try to do that today after I get some work done on an amp or two plus a couple side projects. I have only heard the 80's in other amps so I will give an 80 and 63 an A/B test in some identical Incubus amps today. I tend to borrow some test equipment from an engineering lab but I still have a few things in my shop that will give an accurate appraisal. I generally have help so that can make things go a little faster.
> 
> My wife has taken over part of my shop with pottery so, I should not get yelled at too much if I set up a few things in the family room, she may not even notice.


Dang!!  That is some serious looking equipment.  You really don't mess around.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 28, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Dang!!  That is some serious looking equipment.  You really don't mess around.



That's just so he can covertly communicate via secure means with his Russian suppliers of transformers and tubes.  Wait til you see his actual test equipment!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 27, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I'm betting that turntable would sound a lot better if you hooked it up.  But engineering is not my forte'.


Shhhh

Everything has to be somewhere and at that moment I just needed a place to set it down lol.. My wife has the shop already so I am setting up dual amps to check an 86 Melz against the 63, amps, cables, everything is as identical as I can get it. Source is a Gungnir with some special test tracks where I can concentrate on any portion of the sound spectrum.

I already shared my secret of lighted tubes in a headphone rack with you, you should take that to the grave.



If I look around some more I might find more Melz tubes but I did come across some from 63,69,73, and 86 so I have a small assortment but I will concentrate on 63 and 86 right now. Power tubes will be matched winged C Svetlanas from 1979, and maybe later some Tung Sol 5998's.

Tubes and switch boxes are in place, I may check out the 73's vs the 63 and 86 if I get time.

The bass is a bit more pronounced on the 86 version but a little muddled compared to the 63.IMHO, mids are definitely more pronounced on the 86 as I said earlier. I am monitoring volume levels with meters on each amp to assure all is equal.

I am happy listening to either but side by side there are certainly differences. These are just initial reactions, more testing to follow.

I am picking out things in the 63's I do not hear as well with the 86 version, generally low frequency range.

The 73 is like a cross between the two, I will have to listen to this one more. A test track that is fairly accessible is Daft Punk's Around the World, it is pretty redundant but that is a good thing when you are switching back and forth between tubes.

They are all interesting in their own way but for bass accuracy I would go with the 63, then the 73, and lastly the 86. Mids are more out front in the 86, 73 is more linear like the 63. I can understand anyone loving the Melz from any of those three decades.

73 has much higher bass thump than a 69, about to try a 56 Melz with most of the same parts, just to see where it stacks up.

Ok this tube shows promise but I need to listen to a few more. Bill I may have to send you a 73 and an 80's Melz so you can listen in the Incubus. Also if you have an Melz with the metal top wings, stepped bottom mica but no holes in the plate, let me know, 55,56, and 57 preferably. Bill the 73 and 86 are only loaners, keep that in mind.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 27, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Shhhh
> 
> Everything has to be somewhere and at that moment I just needed a place to set it down lol.. My wife has the shop already so I am setting up dual amps to check an 86 Melz against the 63, amps, cables, everything is as identical as I can get it. Source is a Gungnir with some special test tracks where I can concentrate on any portion of the sound spectrum.
> 
> ...



No worries.  I'll return them promptly.  Subjective return terms are always best. 

And sorry to say I struck out on the non-hole plate Melz.  I have '52's, '54's, 56's and '57's, but none of them have the 1578 features -- all have the plastic mica supports up top and both top and bottom micas are oval.  Bummer.

But lo and behold I *did* get this and a Chatham graphite plate today.  The Priority Mail box looked like it had been run over by a truck (and probably was), but the tubes seemed to survive the brutality.  Both the Tung Sol and the Chatham test quite nicely right at NOS levels and with decently (but not perfectly) balanced triodes.  The 3rd tube?  Well, the seller DID state it was a freebie which is a good thing as it's pretty close to dead at 250 GM (675 is minimum good on the Hickok for a 6080) and extremely high interelement leakage on both triodes.  Have no idea who made it -- only marking on it is "6080WB" up top with a '307' below that (not a valid EIA code). Plates are graphite but totally different shape than the TS and Chatham, and it has dual O getters up top versus the dual D getters in both the TS and Chatham.  And no, I haven't listened yet...just got here about an hour ago.  Special delivery 4 days late.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No worries.  I'll return them promptly.  Subjective return terms are always best.
> 
> And sorry to say I struck out on the non-hole plate Melz.  I have '52's, '54's, 56's and '57's, but none of them have the 1578 features -- all have the plastic mica supports up top and both top and bottom micas are oval.  Bummer.
> 
> But lo and behold I *did* get this and a Chatham graphite plate today.  The Priority Mail box looked like it had been run over by a truck (and probably was), but the tubes seemed to survive the brutality.  Both the Tung Sol and the Chatham test quite nicely right at NOS levels and with decently (but not perfectly) balanced triodes.  The 3rd tube?  Well, the seller DID state it was a freebie which is a good thing as it's pretty close to dead at 250 GM (675 is minimum good on the Hickok for a 6080) and extremely high interelement leakage on both triodes.  Have no idea who made it -- only marking on it is "6080WB" up top with a '307' below that (not a valid EIA code). Plates are graphite but totally different shape than the TS and Chatham, and it has dual O getters up top versus the dual D getters in both the TS and Chatham.  And no, I haven't listened yet...just got here about an hour ago.  Special delivery 4 days late.


At some point listen to the Tung Sol with the  63 Melz and see what you think. The Chatham is no slouch as well. It you get a good buy on a 73 Melz 1578 go for it, an extraordinary tube.


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> Shhhh
> 
> Everything has to be somewhere and at that moment I just needed a place to set it down lol.. My wife has the shop already so I am setting up dual amps to check an 86 Melz against the 63, amps, cables, everything is as identical as I can get it. Source is a Gungnir with some special test tracks where I can concentrate on any portion of the sound spectrum.
> 
> ...


I spy, a pair Alpha Prime.


bcowen said:


> No worries.  I'll return them promptly.  Subjective return terms are always best.
> 
> And sorry to say I struck out on the non-hole plate Melz.  I have '52's, '54's, 56's and '57's, but none of them have the 1578 features -- all have the plastic mica supports up top and both top and bottom micas are oval.  Bummer.
> 
> But lo and behold I *did* get this and a Chatham graphite plate today.  The Priority Mail box looked like it had been run over by a truck (and probably was), but the tubes seemed to survive the brutality.  Both the Tung Sol and the Chatham test quite nicely right at NOS levels and with decently (but not perfectly) balanced triodes.  The 3rd tube?  Well, the seller DID state it was a freebie which is a good thing as it's pretty close to dead at 250 GM (675 is minimum good on the Hickok for a 6080) and extremely high interelement leakage on both triodes.  Have no idea who made it -- only marking on it is "6080WB" up top with a '307' below that (not a valid EIA code). Plates are graphite but totally different shape than the TS and Chatham, and it has dual O getters up top versus the dual D getters in both the TS and Chatham.  And no, I haven't listened yet...just got here about an hour ago.  Special delivery 4 days late.


Nice!  There are like 5 or 6 different versions of the graphite plate 6080WB all made by Bendix.  I look forward to hearing your impressions.  That one in the picture has the thickest plates of all the versions.


----------



## Wes S

There are some pics and info on post # 1358 for all the different versions of the Bendix, in the thread linked here. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-91


----------



## whirlwind

bcowen said:


> No worries.  I'll return them promptly.  Subjective return terms are always best.
> 
> And sorry to say I struck out on the non-hole plate Melz.  I have '52's, '54's, 56's and '57's, but none of them have the 1578 features -- all have the plastic mica supports up top and both top and bottom micas are oval.  Bummer.
> 
> But lo and behold I *did* get this and a Chatham graphite plate today.  The Priority Mail box looked like it had been run over by a truck (and probably was), but the tubes seemed to survive the brutality.  Both the Tung Sol and the Chatham test quite nicely right at NOS levels and with decently (but not perfectly) balanced triodes.  The 3rd tube?  Well, the seller DID state it was a freebie which is a good thing as it's pretty close to dead at 250 GM (675 is minimum good on the Hickok for a 6080) and extremely high interelement leakage on both triodes.  Have no idea who made it -- only marking on it is "6080WB" up top with a '307' below that (not a valid EIA code). Plates are graphite but totally different shape than the TS and Chatham, and it has dual O getters up top versus the dual D getters in both the TS and Chatham.  And no, I haven't listened yet...just got here about an hour ago.  Special delivery 4 days late.



Nice military Bendix...congrats


----------



## thomaskong78 (Jul 1, 2020)

After receivtng two more pairs of 6n8s metal base tube made in 1952 today, now I have 5 pairs of 6n8s metal base tubes in addition to 3 pairs of 1578 tubes made in 1980 and 83.

6n8s metal base  sounds more female like with nuanced details while 1578 sounds more robust with deeper bass.

I will take turns at tubes depending on my mood.


----------



## JKDJedi

Is it just me or tubes in general have come up in prices by a huge margin lately... by a lot.


----------



## Ripper2860

Only since you restarted your incessant tube rolling...


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Only since you restarted your incessant tube rolling...


👍😂 I swear I look up a listing and the price doubles when I click to open it.  As if they see me coming... "It's Jedi raise the prices"!


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> At some point listen to the Tung Sol with the  63 Melz and see what you think. The Chatham is no slouch as well. It you get a good buy on a 73 Melz 1578 go for it, an extraordinary tube.


Thinking I lucked out big time with that 73' (got it on a blind bid )   =)


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Thinking I lucked out big time with that 73' (got it on a blind bid )   =)


I predict you will love it.


----------



## bcowen

thomaskong78 said:


> After receivtng two more pairs of 6n8s metal base tube made in 1952 today, now I have 5 pairs of 6n8s metal base tubes in addition to 3 pairs of 1578 tubes made in 1980 and 83.
> 
> 6n8s metal base  sounds more female like with nuanced details while 1578 sounds more robust with deeper bass.
> 
> I will take turns at tubes depending on my mood.



"Female like"?  I love it!  Sweeter and kinder, right?

Except females don't have tubes, they have sockets.  

(sorry for that....I must been infected by @Ripper2860  -vid19 somehow...)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Is it just me or tubes in general have come up in prices by a huge margin lately... by a lot.



Only the expensive ones.


----------



## JKDJedi

My very first upgrade purchase  was the "new" Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. That was a few years ago. It replaced a no name tube and was held to it's highest esteem by me. As my collection grew it's use was less and less. But it stood out as my first, right there,top shelf, right corner, tucked away. Once in a while, I'd bring it out for a short listen, just to remember and relive that very first purchase/upgrade. I sadly sold her yesterday. Hoping she brings joy to the next person in her lifes journey.


----------



## SHIMACM

What do you say about this valve?


----------



## Roasty

Aside from on eBay, does anyone know where I can get a pair of TS bgrp?


----------



## Wes S

Roasty said:


> Aside from on eBay, does anyone know where I can get a pair of TS bgrp?


They have been hunted down to nearly extinction, from all the reputable tube dealers not on ebay.  Perhaps you might get lucky, if you post a wanted ad in the classifieds.  The only one's I have seen lately are on ebay, going for insane amounts.


----------



## Roasty

Wes S said:


> They have been hunted down to nearly extinction, from all the reputable tube dealers not on ebay.  Perhaps you might get lucky, if you post a wanted ad in the classifieds.  The only one's I have seen lately are on ebay, going for insane amounts.



Yea crazy prices on ebay. I emailed vacuumtubes.net but they were out of stock too. Ended up ordering a pair of RCA smoke glass vt231 just to console myself.


----------



## Wes S

Roasty said:


> Yea crazy prices on ebay. I emailed vacuumtubes.net but they were out of stock too. Ended up ordering a pair of RCA smoke glass vt231 just to console myself.


The RCA have quite a different sound sig, but in the right application (needing lots of warmth), they are the best tube.


----------



## Roasty

Wes S said:


> The RCA have quite a different sound sig, but in the right application (needing lots of warmth), they are the best tube.



Yeah I read they were a bit warm sounding so wanted to try them out with the Utopia and Abyss. Vacuumtubes.net seems to have the most sane prices out there. Even the RCA vt231 were priced much better on that site than on ebay.


----------



## bcowen

Roasty said:


> Aside from on eBay, does anyone know where I can get a pair of TS bgrp?



Vintage Tube Services shows a couple in stock.  Andy has been in the business since even before my addiction was diagnosed and has a stellar reputation for his knowledge of genuine tubes and very thorough testing. But cheap he's not, and when the price is listed as "call", best be sure your wallet is sitting down before you whip out your phone. 

http://vintagetubeservices.com/octal-tubes/


----------



## Wes S (Jul 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Vintage Tube Services shows a couple in stock.  Andy has been in the business since even before my addiction was diagnosed and has a stellar reputation for his knowledge of genuine tubes and very thorough testing. But cheap he's not, and when the price is listed as "call", best be sure your wallet is sitting down before you whip out your phone.
> 
> http://vintagetubeservices.com/octal-tubes/


I am not seeing the BGRP?  However, his tubes are without a doubt the best I have ever bought.  He is super expensive, but the tubes are stunning.  He cleans the pins to where they look brand new and test the heck out of the tube.  He takes a while to ship, as he does all the stuff mentioned, but if money is no option and you want a true NOS tube, Andy is it.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> I am not seeing the BGRP?  However, his tubes are without a doubt the best I have ever bought.  He is super expensive, but the tubes are stunning.  He cleans the pins to where they look brand new and test the heck out of the tube.  He takes a while to ship, as he does all the stuff mentioned, but if money is no option and you want a true NOS tube, Andy is it.



Very last line in the screen shot.  Unless there's a clear glass round plate?  I've never seen one, although they could certainly exist...


----------



## bcowen

Wait....here's some!!  

I must profess, though, I was NOT aware that 'round' was a subjective term.  LOL!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Tung-Sol...304959?hash=item3664519fff:g:0Y0AAOSwiE9e17O1


----------



## Wes S (Jul 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Wait....here's some!!
> 
> I must profess, though, I was NOT aware that 'round' was a subjective term.  LOL!!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Tung-Sol...304959?hash=item3664519fff:g:0Y0AAOSwiE9e17O1


This sure looks like a BGRP, to me.  This is one I just bought on ebay for $150 NOS.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Very last line in the screen shot.  Unless there's a clear glass round plate?  I've never seen one, although they could certainly exist...


I see it now, thanks.  From the past, "call" either means they are crazy expensive or out of stock.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 3, 2020)

Wes S said:


> This sure looks like a BGRP, to me.  This is one I just bought on ebay for $150 NOS.



That certainly is.  Nice looking tube!  And for $150?  Nice score!! 

The ones I pictured above are T-plates that the seller has advertised as round plates.  Unless he meant that the tubes themselves are round.  Probably still some nice sounding tubes, but TS round plates they most certainly aren't.


----------



## cddc (Jul 3, 2020)

LOL...all the tung sol talks...you guys just successfully pushed up the bgrp price (look at the $500/pair just sold). Keep it silent so that I can possibly score one. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Tung-Sol...lack-round-plates-matching-pair-/224036094872


That aside I have noticed the seller* igolioto* for long time. His 6SN7 testing values always seem way too high, normally in 3300 - 3500 micromhos range. And he calls his TV-3 tester calibrated - I highly doubt it. Remember a 100% NOS 6SN7 has Gm = 2600 micromhos.

Another seller I've noticed for long time is *brhines2012*. His 6SN7 testing values with some Mercury tester is suspiciously way too high either, in 3300 - 3500 micromhos range.

Beware and verify their testing values if you buy tubes from them.


----------



## JKDJedi

Roasty said:


> Yeah I read they were a bit warm sounding so wanted to try them out with the Utopia and Abyss. Vacuumtubes.net seems to have the most sane prices out there. Even the RCA vt231 were priced much better on that site than on ebay.


There's a few of them on bid in the UK. Saw a few go for under $150. Might get lucky checking there


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> The RCA have quite a different sound sig, but in the right application (needing lots of warmth), they are the best tube.


Not a fan of the RCA, and excited to read that they need lots of warmth, have the right pairing in mind for them. Will try that over coffee this morning. 😁


----------



## Wes S (Jul 3, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Not a fan of the RCA, and excited to read that they need lots of warmth, have the right pairing in mind for them. Will try that over coffee this morning. 😁




The RCA grey glass is the most syrupy/lush 6SN7 around.  I had a bright pair of cans back in the day, that I like to pair with the Grey Glass, and they sounded killer.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 3, 2020)

Wes S said:


> The RCA grey glass is the most syrupy/lush 6SN7 around.  I had a bright pair of cans back in the day, that I like to pair with the Grey Glass, and they sounded killer.


Maybe you can help me date mine, the date is rubbed off , this has to be a mid to late 40's when did they change the logo?


----------



## Wes S (Jul 3, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Maybe you can help me date mine, the date is rubbed off , this has to be a mid to late 40's when did they change the logo?


That does look like the "meatball" logo, which is an early version.  I can't remember when they made the change.  Is there a letter followed by a number stamped on the base?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 3, 2020)

Wes S said:


> That does look like the "meatball" logo, which is an early version.  I can't remember when they made the change.  Is there a letter followed by a number stamped on the base?


Looks like G5 or G8 (THAT OR 65) hard to tell. I just found date codes for RCA and there's no G , looks like manufacturing was from 36 to 82, so who knows, I ordered that Tube Lure book that @Paladin79 suggested a while back, maybe it will have some history on the logo.  (and you were spot on about that warm tube.. Mullard and this is nice) 
http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf


----------



## Wes S (Jul 3, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Looks like G5 or G8 (THAT OR 65) hard to tell. I just found date codes for RCA and there's no G , looks like manufacturing was from 36 to 82, so who knows, I ordered that Tube Lure book that @Paladin79 suggested a while back, maybe it will have some history on the logo.  (and you were spot on about that warm tube.. Mullard and this is nice)
> http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf


That's exactly what I found.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 3, 2020)

Wes S said:


> That's exactly what I found.


I DON'T SEE A g ANYWHERE.. Where's Waldo!


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> I DON'T SEE A g ANYWHERE.. Where's Waldo!


My guess is 63 or 65.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> LOL...all the tung sol talks...you guys just successfully pushed up the bgrp price (look at the $500/pair just sold). Keep it silent so that I can possibly score one.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Tung-Sol...lack-round-plates-matching-pair-/224036094872
> 
> ...



I have a TV-3 in the closet.  It still sits high atop the throne of PITA testers to work on.  The TV-3's were made (primarily) for the Navy, and they sprayed some kind of anti-fungal, anti-corrosive goop all over the inside of them. Made sense I guess given the intended application. Perhaps that stuff used to remain in some semi-liquid state, but at this point it has hardened into something akin to a very thick coat of lacquer. EVERY test point is a pain to get to already, and then you have to somehow scrape this crusted gook off before you can get a meter reading on a cap or wire junction.  Anybody that can fully and properly calibrate one of these things has my total respect. Then you get a tiny little meter to try and read GM readings on, and arrgghhh!  I was so delighted when I got it because I had read that they are very good testers, and probably were when they were new(er) and functioning at 100%.  I never could get mine to calibrate properly after expending Herculean efforts to do so and finally gave up on it.  It's been a good organ donor though.   Perhaps 'igolioto' has one that is properly calibrated, but like you I very (_very_) highly doubt it.


----------



## cddc

The measurements from* igolioto* and *brhines2012* look so fake, compared to the measurements we normally see. So just beware.


----------



## Ralf Hutter

This:



bcowen said:


> Perhaps 'igolioto' has one that is properly calibrated, but like you I very (_very_) highly doubt it.



and this:



cddc said:


> The measurements from* igolioto* and *brhines2012* look so fake, compared to the measurements we normally see. So just beware.



Since the values are similar between the two of them, would you think that they're setting some testing parameters incorrectly (I know nothing about testing tubes) or are they just picking numbers out of the air and perhaps not testing them at all?

I have a set of brhines Sylvania GTB's that I'll send to somebody to test, if you want to compare his results with yours.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ralf Hutter said:


> This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everyone's testers are calibrated differently, so you'll never get the same tests results across the board between different testers. So I'm told.


----------



## bcowen

Ralf Hutter said:


> This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



IME with two different and truly calibrated testers (a Hickok and a Weston), tubes like 6080's and 6AS7's can show some really high values -- higher than NOS values in many cases.  But 6SN7's are pretty consistent across the board as far as measuring right at average NOS values if they are truly NOS.  I've had an odd one here or there that would measure higher, but like 2800 or 2900, NOT 3k+ like these guys are reporting. My guess would be they're just making the numbers up, or have testers that haven't been touched for a rebuild or voltage check since they were manufactured 50+ years ago.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Everyone's testers are calibrated differently, so you'll never get the same tests results across the board between different testers. So I'm told.



That's quite true. But the readings should be reasonably close once converted to micromho values (depending on how the tester provides the GM reading).


----------



## cddc (Nov 5, 2020)

Ralf Hutter said:


> This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You don't need a tester to find out they are lying. If you often check 6SN7 tubes (and of course their measurements) on fleabay, you'll find measurements from *igolioto* and *brhines2012* are outrageously high, way above reasonable ranges. They either make up the numbers or their testers are garbage, in either case they are dishonest.

Dan Nelson calibrated TV-7 testers have reliable measurements. And lots of sellers use TV-7. Convert these TV-7 measurements to % quality, and you will have an idea where 6SN7 tubes should be tested at, and how ridiculous * igolioto* and *brhines2012* 's numbers are.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> You don't need a tester to find out they are lying. If you often check 6SN7 tubes (and of course their measurements) on fleabay, you'll find measurements from *igolioto* and *brhines2012* are outrageously high, way above reasonable ranges. They either make up the numbers or their testers are garbage, in either case they are dishonest.
> 
> Dan Nelson calibrated TV-7 testers have reliable measurements. And lots of sellers use TV-7. Convert these TV-7 measurements to % quality, and you will have an idea where 6SN7 tubes should be tested at. Attention here, TV-7 measurements can be deceiving, you need to correctly convert them to percent quality. Read my write-up on TV-7 readings some pages earlier (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-15691779).



IMO, Dan Nelson is probably as close to an expert on TV-7's as you'll find these days. While TV-7's aren't quite at the PITA level of a TV-3, they are rather complex to fully and correctly restore and calibrate, and I've never heard anything but rave reviews on the work he does.  I'll make no claim to be an expert on vintage tester restoration and calibration (TV-7's or otherwise) as I do it mostly as a hobby, but I *do* know enough to know there's a lot to learn on these things and I'm most happy to refer anyone wanting a TV-7 restored straight to Dan.   Problem with most of these questionable EBay sellers is that they don't want to spend the money to have the tester gone through and restored and calibrated. Using an uncalibrated tester is no better (and maybe even worse) than not even testing the tube to begin with.


----------



## DenverW

Unless I see a picture of the tube being tested, showing the settings and results, I just assume some fudging is going on.  Some fudging, which I accept on eBay, and some outright deceit, which is a little harder to accept.  Post the shady ones on the bad tube seller thread.


----------



## attmci

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts.558352/

Have fun!


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts.558352/
> 
> Have fun!



Dang it!!  Just when you think you're in full remission, a new drug pops up.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Dang it!!  Just when you think you're in full remission, a new drug pops up.


These are the very nice tubes I used >80% of the time.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Dang it!!  Just when you think you're in full remission, a new drug pops up.


Do I want to know? 🤔


----------



## cddc (Jul 12, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Dang it!!  Just when you think you're in full remission, a new drug pops up.



LOL....no worries, I won't lose sleep if not getting these ECC3X tubes.

First of all, 6SN7 is a U.S. tube. Few European countries made 6SN7 tubes. Brimar made some, but they were mainly for U.S. market. B65 or Pope (or some other Dutch 6SN7s) are few and far between, and fu*king expensive, you don't want to pay the price unless you're insane 

Secondly, ECC33/35 are not 6SN7 equivalents. ECC35 is basically a 6SL7 (gain=70), so you can't stick it into your 6SN7 (gain = 20) circuit. ECC33 has a gain of 35, almost double the gain from 6SN7, so I don't think it will work well in 6SN7 circuit as well.


----------



## tafens

Paladin79 said:


> Be sure and compare the Darkvoice to the Incubus, you should be able to pick out tube sound a lot better with the second amp but that is for you to decide.



If you don’t mind my asking, what are the design traits that makes the Incubus much better in showing tube differences than other amps like the Darkvoice or Lyr3 that was mentioned earlier?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 13, 2020)

tafens said:


> If you don’t mind my asking, what are the design traits that makes the Incubus much better in showing tube differences than other amps like the Darkvoice or Lyr3 that was mentioned earlier?


Well I own a Lyr 3 but I have never been inside it much, I also own a Mjolnir 2, and owned a Valhalla. The Valhalla was an OTL as I recall but it sounded more like solid state to me, I can hear a little tube difference in the Lyr 3. I know Jason and he puts out a fine versatile product to fit most anyone's budget. One of the best analogies came from @bcowen who said something like a lot of amps made tubes sound 60 compared to 40, the incubus is more like 100 to 50 using the same tubes. Perhaps my hearing is not that good so I worked hard to produce something that would allow myself and friends to hear tube differences better.

The Dark Voice I would change a lot were I to own one, I have only repaired one but it gave me an idea of the quality of parts they were using and it is obviously an amp in the under $300 range. It does use point to point wiring so it could be made to sound better.The power supply on the Incubus is a huge part of the amp, as well as the wire, and components. All point to point wiring with a fairly simple signal path that I prefer. A closer analogy would be a Bottlehead Crack that someone took the time to change the pots, output caps, but with a much larger power transformer, more filter caps, and very pure copper and silver plated copper wire.  I have modified some of those to my tastes but this is a different design of course and it has power to spare. Looks are important to me as well so I spend a lot of time on the cabinets. It has been said that the perfect amp would be a wire with gain, this is as close to that as I can get it while using a 6sn7 and 6080 power tube as I can get it.

Two Mundorf oil filled caps I often use in the output stage cost about the same as a Dark Voice if you happen to get one in the $200 range. 

I designed and built four identical amps that I donated to my local audiophile group for 6sn7 testing. Many of my friends are engineers so I try to incorporate specific wire, capacitors, and cabinets they prefer but the design stays the same.  I have given six away and tried to cover costs when helping friends out. Personally I was not sure folks would like or understand the sound, but to date, only one person who has heard one has not asked for one, and he is saving up. I really thought it would need high impedance headphones but it does better than expected down to fifty ohms.  I have been so busy building for others that I am finally getting to take time out to work on my own, 1/8 inch patinated copper plate with a honey locust cabinet. This is not an easy wood to work with and I am keeping three sides as pure as I can with pots and jacks on the top or back.
 And another in brushed copper I made for a friend, there was a lot of finish work yet to go but you get the idea..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Do I want to know? 🤔



No.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Well I own a Lyr 3 but I have never been inside it much, I also own a Mjolnir 2, and owned a Valhalla. The Valhalla was an OTL as I recall but it sounded more like solid state to me, I can hear a little tube difference in the Lyr 3. I know Jason and he puts out a fine versatile product to fit most anyone's budget. One of the best analogies came from @bcowen who said something like a lot of amps made tubes sound 60 compared to 40, the incubus is more like 100 to 50 using the same tubes. Perhaps my hearing is not that good so I worked hard to produce something that would allow myself and friends to hear tube differences better.
> 
> The Dark Voice I would change a lot were I to own one, I have only repaired one but it gave me an idea of the quality of parts they were using and it is obviously an amp in the under $300 range. It does use point to point wiring so it could be made to sound better.The power supply on the Incubus is a huge part of the amp, as well as the wire, and components. All point to point wiring with a fairly simple signal path that I prefer. A closer analogy would be a Bottlehead Crack that someone took the time to change the pots, output caps, but with a much larger power transformer, more filter caps, and very pure copper and silver plated copper wire.  I have modified some of those to my tastes but this is a different design of course and it has power to spare. Looks are important to me as well so I spend a lot of time on the cabinets. It has been said that the perfect amp would be a wire with gain, this is as close to that as I can get it while using a 6sn7 and 6080 power tube as I can get it.
> 
> ...


Would that be the Evo Oil variety? And would someones amp..(eh hem), have such caps in their amp..??


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 13, 2020)

It's Pennzoil.  And you have to drain and fill every 3000 hours.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> It's Pennzoil.  And you have to drain and fill every 3000 hours.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Would that be the Evo Oil variety? And would someones amp..(eh hem), have such caps in their amp..??


Think silver/gold supreme, EVO is another grade as I recall.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Think silver/gold supreme, EVO is another grade as I recall.


Awww.. who put Pennzoil in Rippers amp


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Would that be the Evo Oil variety? And would someones amp..(eh hem), have such caps in their amp..??


I forget, I will have to look. I cannot be expected to remember every component of 20 amps lol.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm special.  Keeps that new cap sound going.  BTW -- mine are fully synthetic oil filled caps.  Good for 6,000 hours.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 13, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I forget, I will have to look. I cannot be expected to remember every component of 20 amps lol.


No, that's ok...lol..leave it please..I'm good..


----------



## Ripper2860

Don't do it!!   You'll void the warranty!!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Don't do it!!   You'll void the warranty!!!!


EXACTLY!!!


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Don't do it!!   You'll void the warranty!!!!


There is no warranty till I say there is one. And that starts tomorrow.


----------



## JKDJedi

I got to go.. see ya guys..wife thinks I'm going crazy cause I haven't stopped laughing since I sat here... (L M F A O )


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm special.  Keeps that new cap sound going.  BTW -- mine are fully synthetic oil filled caps.  Good for 6,000 hours.



For the music you listen to, 0W-20 probably sounds better than 5W-30.  Manson sounds best with a straight 50 weight, but one with a detergent additive helps keep things a bit cleaner.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 13, 2020)

Jedi gets an amp I used myself and little expense was spared. It just gives me a reason to finish my own, and progress is being made. The cabinet is nearly complete and I was gifted $3,000 in caps and resistors.

I keep running a Melz tube from 56 or so that has most of the traits of a 1578 and it impresses me more every day. I hooked up four different headphones tonight and the bass is to die for. I need to get ahold of some Russians and try for more lol.


----------



## G0rt

Paladin79 said:


> There is no warranty till I say there is one. And that starts tomorrow.



You could maybe add a warranty switch? Some music probably sounds better without.


----------



## Jaeger18

any one has experienced with this tube?

https://sophiaelectric.com/products/pages-se-new-6sn7

mind sharing your thoughts of its SQ?


----------



## Wes S

Paladin79 said:


> Jedi gets an amp I used myself and little expense was spared. It just gives me a reason to finish my own, and progress is being made. The cabinet is nearly complete and I was gifted $3,000 in caps and resistors.
> 
> I keep running a Melz tube from 56 or so that has most of the traits of a 1578 and it impresses me more every day. I hooked up four different headphones tonight and the bass is to die for. I need to get ahold of some Russians and try for more lol.


Wow!  The grain on that wood is insane!  Love it man.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 14, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Wow!  The grain on that wood is insane!  Love it man.


It is not easy to find and those are particularly good pieces, 3/4 inch thick. I hate to disturb the looks with a headphone jack so I am still considering options on where I can mount that, maybe on the top plate.

This is the 56 Melz I am really starting to like, it has the proper metal wings and steps in the bottom mica but no holes in the plate.The plates look more like ribbed Fotons from the early fifties. Only these have two ribs instead of three and black plates instead of grey. If anyone comes across more of these I would be interested in buying them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I hate to disturb the looks with a headphone jack so I am still considering options on where I can mount that, maybe on the top plate.



If you were a true purist, you'd just hardwire the headphone cable straight in.  I'm disappointed.


----------



## hackstu (Jul 14, 2020)

Message deleted, put on another thread


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 14, 2020)

Nothing to see here...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If you were a true purist, you'd just hardwire the headphone cable straight in.  I'm disappointed.


Ok bluetooth headphones it is! Why bother with those old school wires at all?   

 Just trust me, whatever I do will be cool, in my opinion. You will make fun of whatever I do anyway.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok bluetooth headphones it is! Why bother with those old school wires at all?
> 
> Just trust me, whatever I do will be cool, in my opinion. You will make fun of whatever I do anyway.



I've never made fun of anything you've done.  Yet.  

Copied?  For sure.


----------



## JKDJedi

Jaeger18 said:


> any one has experienced with this tube?
> 
> https://sophiaelectric.com/products/pages-se-new-6sn7
> 
> mind sharing your thoughts of its SQ?


----------



## Mr Trev

IEC Matsushita 6SN7?? Does such a thing exist? I'm thinking rebrands, what you guys think?
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Trio-IEC-Ja...Top-Halo-Original-Sleeves-Trsted/303600111754


----------



## JKDJedi

Anyone else use this stuff?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Anyone else use this stuff?


They make various products that I use, including that.


----------



## Ripper2860

I do, as well.


----------



## Jaeger18

JKDJedi said:


>




thanks for the heads up  

but does the sophia blue glass has a different sound compare to the sophia in the video?


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Anyone else use this stuff?


Great stuff!  I use a couple of their products, as well.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> IEC Matsushita 6SN7?? Does such a thing exist? I'm thinking rebrands, what you guys think?
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Trio-IEC-Ja...Top-Halo-Original-Sleeves-Trsted/303600111754



I don't know a thing about those....sorry.  But I did just pick up a trio of International Servicemaster labeled 6922's that are actually the genuine mid-70's SWGP silver shield Reflector 6N23P's that are currently going for $100+ a pop.  $30 for the three of them, and they all test at perfect NOS levels.   Finally a score after a bunch of derelict purchases here recently.


----------



## Ripper2860

Don't hurt yourself!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Don't hurt yourself!!



Killjoy.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I don't know a thing about those....sorry.  But I did just pick up a trio of International Servicemaster labeled 6922's that are actually the genuine mid-70's SWGP silver shield Reflector 6N23P's that are currently going for $100+ a pop.  $30 for the three of them, and they all test at perfect NOS levels.   Finally a score after a bunch of derelict purchases here recently.



I know that Mullard had a 6SN7 variant. I also know Matsushita had access to Mullard tooling. Maybe a cheaper way to get the same sig…
Unfortunately the seller is using ebay's GSP so I'm out. Read way too many bad things about GSP and tubes.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 16, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> I know that Mullard had a 6SN7 variant. I also know Matsushita had access to Mullard tooling. Maybe a cheaper way to get the same sig…
> Unfortunately the seller is using ebay's GSP so I'm out. Read way too many bad things about GSP and tubes.


Interesting, I have never seen a Mullard made 6SN7.  I have seen a Brimar made 6SN7 labeled Mullard, but never a true Mullard.  As a big fan of Mullard, I would love to see and hear their 6SN7.  Anyone heard one?  I would love to know how they sound.


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> I know that Mullard had a 6SN7 variant. I also know Matsushita had access to Mullard tooling. Maybe a cheaper way to get the same sig…
> Unfortunately the seller is using ebay's GSP so I'm out. Read way too many bad things about GSP and tubes.


When you say "variant" are you suggesting the CV181?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Jaeger18 said:


> any one has experienced with this tube?
> 
> https://sophiaelectric.com/products/pages-se-new-6sn7
> 
> mind sharing your thoughts of its SQ?


Looks so beautiful! Why would anyone care listening to it?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> It is not easy to find and those are particularly good pieces, 3/4 inch thick. I hate to disturb the looks with a headphone jack so I am still considering options on where I can mount that, maybe on the top plate.
> 
> This is the 56 Melz I am really starting to like, it has the proper metal wings and steps in the bottom mica but no holes in the plate.The plates look more like ribbed Fotons from the early fifties. Only these have two ribs instead of three and black plates instead of grey. If anyone comes across more of these I would be interested in buying them.


You know, Tom, MELZ was the first tube factory in Russia, They also had a tube designer unit. Many a Russian tube was made there as a sample, and then sent over to other factories to produce. Then the RCA equipment in the late Thirties. And then all the story of evacuation, when the Germans were advancing during the WWII, and reestablishment after the war. When I was researching their history last year, reading Russian forums and sites, and what's on the market in Russia and the satellites, I bloody lost track - so many variations. I am lucky to be one of the few people round who does not like their sound in my gear, otherwise, I'd be still digging  . I can have a refresher look again, if you are interested...


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You know, Tom, MELZ was the first tube factory in Russia, They also had a tube designer unit. Many a Russian tube was made there as a sample, and then sent over to other factories to produce. Then the RCA equipment in the late Thirties. And then all the story of evacuation, when the Germans were advancing during the WWII, and reestablishment after the war. When I was researching their history last year, reading Russian forums and sites, and what's on the market in Russia and the satellites, I bloody lost track - so many variations. I am lucky to be one of the few people round who does not like their sound in my gear, otherwise, I'd be still digging  . I can have a refresher look again, if you are interested...


Oh I have plenty of tubes but I will ask Russian friends to be on the lookout. This one is more of a curiosity since it is the only one I have seen. Other 56’s have round micas and other variations.


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> When you say "variant" are you suggesting the CV181?


My thoughts exactly, because Mullard never made a 6SN7.


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> My thoughts exactly, because Mullard never made a 6SN7.


I try to use the word equivalent when talking tubes outside the US.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jul 16, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I try to use the word equivalent when talking tubes outside the US.


Many sources confirm that Mullard made ECC32/CV181 which are near equivalent to 6SN7


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 16, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Many sources confirm that Mullard made ECC32/CV181 which are near equivalent to 6SN7


I'd like a link to those sources please, I was interested in them a couple years back then found this at the OP of this thread

*CV181/CV2821* – Alternate designations for ECC32/ECC33 respectively. The popular Mullard CV181 is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7s – 50% more power draw means that the tube will probably send your transformer up in smoke.

and this...

 "Despite of the similar pin configuration and Octal-base, the ECC32 / CV181 preamplifier vacuum tube is not an exact electrical equivalent to a 6SN7 and should not be used to substitute a 6SN7 in preamplifier designs where the plate voltage could reach over 300 volts DC. The ECC32 may not work well in some applications where the negative grid bias is too high. Also, the ECC32 requires 950-milliamperes of heater filament current versus the 600-milliamperes required for the 6SN7 so the power supply transformer would have to be upgraded". 
http://boneshifi.blogspot.com/2015/..., the ECC32 / CV181,voltage rating of 450-VDC.


----------



## cddc (Jul 16, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I'd like a link to those sources please, I was interested in them a couple years back then found this at the OP of this thread
> 
> *CV181/CV2821* – Alternate designations for ECC32/ECC33 respectively. The popular Mullard CV181 is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7s – 50% more power draw means that the tube will probably send your transformer up in smoke.
> 
> ...





You are correct, Mullard ECC32 is strictly not a 6SN7 equivalent, as it requires 0.95A heater current (vs 0.6A on 6SN7). It's a must that you check with your amp manufacturer to see whether the transformer in your amp has the extra juice to feed it, otherwise the transformer will get fried.

Mullard ECC35/ECC33 are not 6SN7 equivalents as well, one being 6SL7 and the other somewhere between 6SL7 and 6SN7.

As far as I know, Mullard never made a 6SN7 tube.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I know that Mullard had a 6SN7 variant. I also know Matsushita had access to Mullard tooling. Maybe a cheaper way to get the same sig…
> Unfortunately the seller is using ebay's GSP so I'm out. Read way too many bad things about GSP and tubes.



Good call on that.  I've purchased two things that went through GSP. One I never received, one was ordered and shows tracking on April 2nd, and that's the last it's been seen. I've received refunds for both from Ebay, but still.  I'm pretty sure GSP is an acronym for "Gonna Sit in Perpetuity"


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'd like a link to those sources please, I was interested in them a couple years back then found this at the OP of this thread
> 
> *CV181/CV2821* – Alternate designations for ECC32/ECC33 respectively. The popular Mullard CV181 is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7s – 50% more power draw means that the tube will probably send your transformer up in smoke.
> 
> ...



I'm not an engineer and don't even play one on TV, but I will say that any amp designer that runs a 6SN7 at anything close to 300vdc is an idiot. Avoid like the plague.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You know, Tom, MELZ was the first tube factory in Russia, They also had a tube designer unit. Many a Russian tube was made there as a sample, and then sent over to other factories to produce. Then the RCA equipment in the late Thirties. And then all the story of evacuation, when the Germans were advancing during the WWII, and reestablishment after the war. When I was researching their history last year, reading Russian forums and sites, and what's on the market in Russia and the satellites, I bloody lost track - so many variations. I am lucky to be one of the few people round who does not like their sound in my gear, otherwise, I'd be still digging  . I can have a refresher look again, if you are interested...



Know anything about these?  Similar (but not exact) to a 6SN7.  Just got some of these in but haven't wired one up to an octal base just yet.  Figured I'd try one first in the Incubus and see if it blows up...gotta explore that mysterious warranty text a bit.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Know anything about these?  Similar (but not exact) to a 6SN7.  Just got some of these in but haven't wired one up to an octal base just yet.  Figured I'd try one first in the Incubus and see if it blows up...gotta explore that mysterious warranty text a bit.


This would be cool over a live feed...    getten my popcorn ready!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> This would be cool over a live feed...    getten my popcorn ready!



LOL!  I have to wait until I'm sure Tom isn't on vacation.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I have to wait until I'm sure Tom isn't on vacation.


I want to officially say I do not know @bcowen and have no knowledge of him having possession of one of my amps. I should have just given it to a homeless person, my life would be easier.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I want to officially say I do not know @bcowen and have no knowledge of him having possession of one of my amps. I should have just given it to a homeless person, my life would be easier.



If I keep on buying tubes for this amp, I'll soon be homeless. Does that help?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If I keep on buying tubes for this amp, I'll soon be homeless. Does that help?


Ok, you kinda, sorta qualify.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I want to officially say I do not know @bcowen and have no knowledge of him having possession of one of my amps. I should have just given it to a homeless person, my life would be easier.


😂😂😂


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2020)

I will neither confirm nor deny that this works and sounds fabulous with the Incubus using a 6922 -> 6SN7 adapter**...   

https://www.tubemonger.com/Mullard_CV3986_6021_1975_Mitcham_E88CC_SUB_NOS_p/ex-6021m.htm


** Do not try this with Lyr 3!!


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> When you say "variant" are you suggesting the CV181?



Quite possibly the CV181. Or maybe I meant the ECC33. It varies really…




Paladin79 said:


> I try to use the word equivalent when talking tubes outside the US.



Variant is the metric equivalent of equivalent - I'd explain how to do the conversion, but it might make your head explode


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I will neither confirm nor deny that this works and sounds fabulous with the Incubus...
> 
> https://www.tubemonger.com/Mullard_CV3986_6021_1975_Mitcham_E88CC_SUB_NOS_p/ex-6021m.htm


I need to get ahold of my lawyers first thing tomorrow and have them stipulate which tubes you are allowed and not allowed to use in a certain amp. Here is an analogy, in electronics there are plugs and jacks, pins and sockets, they have gender. Just because a particular pin might fit into a particular socket (here you are allowed to dream of yourself and say Chrissy Teigen) does not mean it is realistic or acceptable behavior to insert some tubes into some sockets.😸


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I will neither confirm nor deny that this works and sounds fabulous with the Incubus **...
> 
> https://www.tubemonger.com/Mullard_CV3986_6021_1975_Mitcham_E88CC_SUB_NOS_p/ex-6021m.htm
> 
> ...



So the Incubus sails through a Rippering without a glitch.  This has NOT helped clarify the warranty thing. Thanks for nothing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to get ahold of my lawyers first thing tomorrow and have them stipulate which tubes you are allowed and not allowed to use in a certain amp. Here is an analogy, in electronics there are plugs and jacks, pins and sockets, they have gender. Just because a particular pin might fit into a particular socket (here you are allowed to dream of yourself and say Chrissy Teigen) does not mean it is realistic or acceptable behavior to insert some tubes into some sockets.😸



@Ripper2860 might be able to help as he has extensive experience with Barbies.  Kinda different, but sockets and pins (the latter an especially apropos description for @Ripper2860 ) kinda work the same way.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2020)

I can neither confirm nor deny that this has ever happened.  But if it did, it sounded fabulous and the Incubus' lower plate voltage vs Lyr 3 would have made this possible w/o red-plating.  That is if I were silly enough to try this for say an extended period of 3-4 days in extended listening sessions.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So the Incubus sails through a Rippering without a glitch.  This has NOT helped clarify the warranty thing. Thanks for nothing.


JkDJedi, just use the Marconi tube I am sending you and ignore those who shall remain nameless (Cowen and Ripper) and you can look forward to many years of happy listening.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2020)

I don't have many years left, so I have nothing to lose.  


BTW -- That tube I referenced has nothing over a very good 6SN7, so no need to get all up in arms over not having one (or two).  Just stick with what's recommended.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> JkDJedi, just use the Marconi tube I am sending you and ignore those who shall remain nameless (Cowen and Ripper) and you can look forward to many years of happy listening.


And I thought rolling a 12AT7WA was dangerous...you guys are nutz!


----------



## JKDJedi

Mr Trev said:


> Quite possibly the CV181. Or maybe I meant the ECC33. It varies really…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to call you out like that I was asking or trying to get an idea if anyone here actually uses the Mullard CV181 on their amps. You hear and read not for 6SN7 amps and then @Ripper2860   is rolling Barbies on his amp...


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> JkDJedi, just use the Marconi tube I am sending you and ignore those who shall remain nameless (Cowen and Ripper) and you can look forward to many years of happy listening.



I think what Tom is saying is to leave to the tube rolling to the experts who shall remain nameless (Cowen and Ripper).


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I think what Tom is saying is to leave to the tube rolling to the experts who shall remain nameless (Cowen and Ripper).


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> JkDJedi, just use the Marconi tube I am sending you and ignore those who shall remain nameless (Cowen and Ripper) and you can look forward to many years of happy listening.


Looking forward to it.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Looking forward to it.


A young lady listened today and loved it. I feel bad having her ship it tomorrow but there will be other tubes and amps.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I think what Tom is saying is to leave to the tube rolling to the experts who shall remain nameless (Cowen and Ripper).



I'm pretty sure that's *not* what he's saying, but I like your version better.


----------



## Mr Trev

JKDJedi said:


> I didn't mean to call you out like that I was asking or trying to get an idea if anyone here actually uses the Mullard CV181 on their amps. You hear and read not for 6SN7 amps and then @Ripper2860   is rolling Barbies on his amp...



No worries, sometimes the alphabet soup scheme of tube names trips me up.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm pretty sure that's *not* what he's saying, but I like your version better.


You guys are just jealous, I can pretty well guarantee neither of you own the Marconi 6SN7 that Jedi will be receiving.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You guys are just jealous, I can pretty well guarantee neither of you own the Marconi 6SN7 that Jedi will be receiving.



Fine then.  Marconis were made by GE.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Fine then.  Marconis were made by GE.


All of them???? Want to bet a steak dinner and bottle of wine at the same restaurant where Mellencamp took Billy Joel? Hmmm?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> All of them???? Want to bet a steak dinner and bottle of wine at the same restaurant where Mellencamp took Billy Joel? Hmmm?



How about a Big Mac and a small fry?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> How about a Big Mac and a small fry?



I am looking over the wine list as we speak, was it the 2015 or 2016 that was the preferred year? Old Deaf Donkey might have to advise me. I think the particular Tuscan red I seek is best at an early age? Sadly I doubt the restaurant is open, sigh.
So much has changed since we last bet.

McDonalds should never enter into a wager between men.


----------



## JKDJedi

My curiosity has peaked tremendously now... Marconi... Hmmm..


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> My curiosity has peaked tremendously now... Marconi... Hmmm..


Bill has to think back to how much I spent to win our last bet, it is rarely about the money to me. It often involves history and science and abilities.
Enough about this, back to 6sn7 tubes, I will be receiving some excellent examples this weekend on loan, but I will listen blind, score them, and then discover.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> You guys are just jealous, I can pretty well guarantee neither of you own the Marconi 6SN7 that Jedi will be receiving.



Maybe not the one, but I own a black glass Marconi 6SN7.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Maybe not the one, but I own a black glass Marconi 6SN7.


I have heard them. Not the same


----------



## Ripper2860

Well, please do share.  This is a 6SN7 thread and it's most appropriate to elaborate here.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, please do share.  This is a 6SN7 thread and it's most appropriate to elaborate here.


I am waiting for Mr. Cowen to do better than fast food.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

JKDJedi said:


> I'd like a link to those sources please, I was interested in them a couple years back then found this at the OP of this thread


Well, I do not have all of the recorded but one said that "The best plain 6SN7 GTB's are Mullard made in Japan on Mullard equipment." I have also found some interesting info here.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill has to think back to how much I spent to win our last bet, it is rarely about the money to me. It often involves history and science and abilities.
> Enough about this, back to 6sn7 tubes, I will be receiving some excellent examples this weekend on loan, but I will listen blind, score them, and then discover.



I think you should send whichever one you like best to me so that I can verify your auditory faculties are still intact.  Only request is that if it has etched dots on the glass, nevermind.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 17, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I think you should send whichever one you like best to me so that I can verify your auditory faculties are still intact.  Only request is that if it has etched dots on the glass, nevermind.


We need something new to bet on.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I think you should send whichever one you like best to me so that I can verify your auditory faculties are still intact.  Only request is that if it has etched dots on the glass, nevermind.


I can find you some with etched dots but there are plenty of other Marconi's out there. Now the other tubes I will be checking are some that might make the list of 52 for testing so I have no idea what they are at this time.

We did come up with a new way of concealing tubes for blind testing for just sending them back and forth to each other. Much easier than PVC, but it is only for standard 6sn7 glass shape. This was another idea I had and so far it is working.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can find you some with etched dots but there are plenty of other Marconi's out there. Now the other tubes I will be checking are some that might make the list of 52 for testing so I have no idea what they are at this time.
> 
> We did come up with a new way of concealing tubes for blind testing for just sending them back and forth to each other. Much easier than PVC, but it is only for standard 6sn7 glass shape. This was another idea I had and so far it is working.



Well?  Please share the idea.  I'm needing something new to copy.  

I should have my mini-Schiit rack all blinged out by the end of the weekend.  I might post some pictures.  Maybe.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We need something new to bet on.



I'm game, so long as it doesn't involve Barbie dolls.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well?  Please share the idea.  I'm needing something new to copy.
> 
> I should have my mini-Schiit rack all blinged out by the end of the weekend.  I might post some pictures.  Maybe.


It is a little too early to let this idea out, but it is quick and easy but requires a trial time before I am totally happy with the concept. With it anyone should be able to conceal a tube within say ten minutes and remove it from concealment in under a minute. No damage to the tube whatsoever.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> It is a little too early to let this idea out, but it is quick and easy but requires a trial time before I am totally happy with the concept. With it anyone should be able to conceal a tube within say ten minutes and remove it from concealment in under a minute. No damage to the tube whatsoever.


Or burnt eyebrows trying to torch the lid off... 🙄


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Or burnt eyebrows trying to torch the lid off... 🙄


No heat at all needed for removal, no cleanup required.


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> It is a little too early to let this idea out, but it is quick and easy but requires a trial time before I am totally happy with the concept. With it anyone should be able to conceal a tube within say ten minutes and remove it from concealment in under a minute. No damage to the tube whatsoever.



Oooops.  Looks like Tom may have to go back to the drawing board...


----------



## JKDJedi

Can anyone ID these? Going for two grand, might make a play on them.. #not


----------



## G0rt

Paladin79 said:


> It is a little too early to let this idea out, but it is quick and easy but requires a trial time before I am totally happy with the concept. With it anyone should be able to conceal a tube within say ten minutes and remove it from concealment in under a minute. No damage to the tube whatsoever.



So, it DOES involve Barbie? Dolls?


----------



## JKDJedi

G0rt said:


> So, it DOES involve Barbie? Dolls?


----------



## Paladin79

G0rt said:


> So, it DOES involve Barbie? Dolls?


Ripper is not involved!!!   

I will try to post something next week about it, I do not want people jumping the gun and trying this till I know for sure how the system holds up.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

JKDJedi said:


> Can anyone ID these? Going for two grand, might make a play on them.. #not


What's there to identify? http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaq0027.htm and https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_b65.html


----------



## JKDJedi

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> What's there to identify? http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaq0027.htm and https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_b65.html


 Anybody have em? Is the juice out of these worth the squeeze?


----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


> So, it DOES involve Barbie? Dolls?



ROFL!!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Can anyone ID these? Going for two grand, might make a play on them.. #not



Yes.  They are tubes.  But I have no direct experience to comment on the value proposition.

Hope that helps some?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yes.  They are tubes.  But I have no direct experience to comment on the value proposition.
> 
> Hope that helps some?


I know this probably get’s tricky but your comment is not withheld because of your inability to comment? It’s going to be a long day, I just know it.

And thanks for confirming they are tubes!!  Your timely answer kept me from guessing pineapples or aardvarks.


----------



## tafens

Paladin79 said:


> I know this probably get’s tricky but your comment is not withheld because of your inability to comment? It’s going to be a long day, I just know it.
> 
> And thanks for confirming they are tubes!!  Your timely answer kept me from guessing pineapples or aardvarks.



And here I went thinking they were porcupines.
Having spines and all. Eight small and one large. Typical.


----------



## attmci (Jul 18, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> I know that Mullard had a 6SN7 variant. I also know Matsushita had access to Mullard tooling. Maybe a cheaper way to get the same sig…
> Unfortunately the seller is using ebay's GSP so I'm out. Read way too many bad things about GSP and tubes.


That's a ECC33.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-EC...507738?hash=item2aea7a43da:g:YGIAAOSwride~9IR


----------



## Paladin79

tafens said:


> And here I went thinking they were porcupines.
> Having spines and all. Eight small and one large. Typical.


It is a good thing @bcowen came along and helped out, the man is a veritable font of useful information.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know this probably get’s tricky but your comment is not withheld because of your inability to comment? It’s going to be a long day, I just know it.



I have no comment on the _value proposition_.  My comment that they are tubes holds true.  Mostly, I think?  So maybe it'll only be a 50% long day?


----------



## Ripper2860

Fixed it for you...



Paladin79 said:


> It is a good thing @bcowen came along and helped out, the man is a veritable font of useful useless information.


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> And here I went thinking they were porcupines.
> Having spines and all. Eight small and one large. Typical.



Porcupines have quills, not spines. Sheeeez, do I have to tell you guys _everything_?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Or burnt eyebrows trying to torch the lid off... 🙄



What are eyebrows good for anyway?  I mean eyelashes kinda have some reasonable utility, but eyebrows?  Kind of like an appendix and tonsils...no useful purpose.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Phixed itt fer U...



You should quit editing other people's posts.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> That's a ECC33.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-EC...507738?hash=item2aea7a43da:g:YGIAAOSwride~9IR


Brimar made? Or are these really Mullard?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I should quit editing other people's posts.



What you talkin' bout Willis??


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Brimar made? Or are these really Mullard?



That looks like Brimar top mica and plates.  Unique getter holder compared to my Brimars, but mine are 6SN7GT and CV1988, not ECC33.


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> That looks like Brimar top mica and plates.  Unique getter holder compared to my Brimars, but mine are 6SN7GT and CV1988, not ECC33.


I don't thinks so.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2020)

Top mica is VERY similar.  Plates on ECC33 while similar do look shorter and are not ribbed.  Very reminiscent of Brimar, but I could see it not being Brimar.


My Brimar 6SN7GT:


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> What are eyebrows good for anyway?  I mean eyelashes kinda have some reasonable utility, but eyebrows?  Kind of like an appendix and tonsils...no useful purpose.


"The main biological function of eyebrows is to *keep sweat and moisture away from our eyes*. The arching shape and the direction of the individual hairs help to direct moisture towards the sides of our faces, keeping most of the liquid away from our eyes, whether it’s raining or we’re sweaty from an intense workout."
-*Source*

*Also, if eyebrows weren't a thing what would I do with my eyebrow pencil?*


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> "The main biological function of eyebrows is to *keep sweat and moisture away from our eyes*. The arching shape and the direction of the individual hairs help to direct moisture towards the sides of our faces, keeping most of the liquid away from our eyes, whether it’s raining or we’re sweaty from an intense workout."
> -*Source*
> 
> *Also, if eyebrows weren't a thing what would I do with my eyebrow pencil?*



Mine don't help with that at all.  Maybe they're defective?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2020)

Duh.  That's because your eyebrows are painted on.


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> Top mica is VERY similar.  Plates on ECC33 while similar do look shorter and are not ribbed.  Very reminiscent of Brimar, but I could see it not being Brimar.
> 
> 
> My Brimar 6SN7GT:


This is the top of a ECC35/ECC33:





These are Brimar


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2020)

I stand corrected.  Your images very clearly show that they are not as similar as I 1st thought.  Much better pics than those in the eBay listing.

Now let's get down to brass tacks...

1. How do the ECC33 sound??
2. What reel-to-reel is that?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> 2. What reel-to-reel is that?



It's one that sounds reely good.  Duh.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> It's one that sounds reely good.  Duh.


Careful, he may deck you for a response like that!


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Careful, he may deck you for a response like that!



ROFL!!


----------



## Ripper2860




----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> I stand corrected.  Your images very clearly show that they are not as similar as I 1st thought.  Much better pics than those in the eBay listing.
> 
> Now let's get down to brass tacks...
> 
> ...


Will, Bill already answered your question. LOL


----------



## Ripper2860

It's a conspiracy, isn't it?


----------



## attmci

To be honest, the headphones makes much more impact on SQ than tubes. Try a pair of Abyss 1266, they are incredible.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 19, 2020)

I agree.  Transducers do make a far greater impact than tube-rolling.  Sonic tweaking is all that rolling really amounts to -- tailoring the sound to get the most of what one desires from their amp, HPs, and music.  I am very happy with my Arya headphones and cannot imagine how wonderful the Abyss must sound.  Maybe it's a good thing I have not heard them.  I'll continue to live in the bliss of my Abyss ignorance!!


----------



## G0rt

Ripper2860 said:


> I agree.  Transducers do make a far greater impact than tube-rolling.  Sonic tweaking is all that rolling really amounts to -- tailoring the sound to get the most of what one desires from their amp, HPs, and music.  I am very happy with my Arya headphones and cannot imagine how wonderful the Abyss must sound.  Maybe it's a good thing I have not heard them.  I'll continue to live in the bliss of my Abyss ignorance!!



And then there's that moment when just the right bottle in just the right amp with just the right cans all come together and magic happens.

A Frankie 7N7 landed in my Lyr 3, and suddenly an over-warm, syrupy LCD-3f found itself open to the sky, au naturel. We're in love...


----------



## mourip

G0rt said:


> ...open to the sky, au naturel.



Best description of the 7N7/14N7 I have heard. A very undervalued tube.

Don't tell anyone!


----------



## G0rt

mourip said:


> Best description of the 7N7/14N7 I have heard. A very undervalued tube.
> 
> Don't tell anyone!



Oops, although that cat's been out a while now.


----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


> Oops, although that cat's been out a while now.



Yeah, some guy named @Ripper2860 hoarded the entire world supply.  Perhaps his Barbies are outfitted with loctal sockets?


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.  I have finally snatched the pebble from your hand.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  I have finally snatched the pebble from your hand.



That wasn't a pebble.  The cat's litter box got a little full.  Sorry.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  I have finally snatched the pebble litter from your hand.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> Yeah, some guy named @Ripper2860 hoarded the entire world supply.  Perhaps his Barbies are outfitted with loctal sockets?



All Barbies should be fitted with Loktal sockets.


----------



## bcowen

G0rt said:


> All Barbies should be fitted with Loktal sockets.



LOL!  Yes, it's important that the pin fits snugly in the socket.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yes, it's important that the pin fits snugly in the socket.


Right, and if you put it in right you'll get a nice, warm, glowing response.


----------



## Roasty (Jul 22, 2020)

I just received a pair of RCA 6sn7gt grey glass from Roy at vacuumtubes. I'm really enjoying the sound. Really spacious and the mids are very very nice. Is there some reason these tubes are not recommended more often?


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Right, and if you put it in right you'll get a nice, warm, glowing response.



LOL!  Just be sure both the pin and socket are clean for the best outcome.


----------



## bcowen

Roasty said:


> I just received a pair of RCA 6sn7gt grey glass from Roy at vacuumtubes. I'm really enjoying the sound. Really spacious and the mids are very very nice. Is there some reason these tubes are not recommended more often?



I've seen them recommended regularly by a number of forum members, especially the 1940's era ones.


----------



## Roasty

bcowen said:


> I've seen them recommended regularly by a number of forum members, especially the 1940's era ones.



Ah ok I must have missed those posts. 
Well, just glad I've added this to my collection. Really nice sounding tubes!


----------



## SHIMACM

Roasty said:


> I just received a pair of RCA 6sn7gt grey glass from Roy at vacuumtubes. I'm really enjoying the sound. Really spacious and the mids are very very nice. Is there some reason these tubes are not recommended more often?



It's my favorite tube with the T1.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 24, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I stand corrected.  Your images very clearly show that they are not as similar as I 1st thought.  Much better pics than those in the eBay listing.
> 
> Now let's get down to brass tacks...
> 
> ...


New found respect for the RCA the same...


----------



## Wes S

Roasty said:


> I just received a pair of RCA 6sn7gt grey glass from Roy at vacuumtubes. I'm really enjoying the sound. Really spacious and the mids are very very nice. Is there some reason these tubes are not recommended more often?


That was the first 6SN7 I fell in love with!  The early 40's version, that is.  I have a ton of those, and will use them again someday soon.  They have a unique sound sig, that works very well in certain situations, and is definitely a tube everyone should have in their collection.


----------



## SHIMACM

Interesting how the synergy between the tubes is everything. Today I rolled my three 6sn7s with my new Tung-sol 5998. For the first time, the RCA vt231 gray glass was not my favorite. Ken Rad vt231 was considerably better, with Raytheon vt231 in second and RCA last. Combined with Chatham 6as7g and Mullard 6080 the RCA vt231 is without a doubt the best for me. But with Tung-Sol it was different.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> There were only eight compared, I will post the numbers fairly soon
> 
> Ken-Rad black glass   93.4
> Melz 1578                    91.7
> ...



This ranking Paladin79 used the Tung-Sol 5998 as a power tube, which confirms my impressions. If you change the power tube, I believe that this ranking will change.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> This ranking Paladin79 used the Tung-Sol 5998 as a power tube, which confirms my impressions. If you change the power tube, I believe that this ranking will change.


It can change things slightly we also swapped in some Chatham and Bendix tubes and got similar results, not always identical but close.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> It can change things slightly we also swapped in some Chatham and Bendix tubes and got similar results, not always identical but close.



Just remembering that my phone is the T1. With other headphones the result may be different.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 2, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Just remembering that my phone is the T1. With other headphones the result may be different.


We are using only Senn HD 800's for serious testing, and I personally built the amps so they are exact as I can get them. The DAC to be used is an Aqua La Voce S3. Oh and hearing ability is different so we will use an average score of 50 very qualified folks when we can ever get together again lol. When things get better we can party like it was 2019.


----------



## JKDJedi

One of my tubes left channel went out. I reheated the pins and cleaned them pretty good. Only thing I can think of is when (two months ago) one of my amps shorted that it might have damaged this tube..thoughts? (wasn't an expensive tube)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> One of my tubes left channel went out. I reheated the pins and cleaned them pretty good. Only thing I can think of is when (two months ago) one of my amps shorted that it might have damaged this tube..thoughts? (wasn't an expensive tube)



Possible.  But also possible that the one triode just died on its own, or the emission has degraded to the point you get no sound (more probable if the other triode is close to or below minimum values).  No way to know that for sure though without a tube tester...


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 5, 2020)

Copy


----------



## Ripper2860

Paste


----------



## Wes S

OK. 

 Here is my Copy and Paste.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 6, 2020)

I am listening to a 1967 Melz 1578 before I replace its solder as well as two 1952 Fotons. The Melz is a lovely sounding tube. I am listening through a Schiit Gungnir, a loaded Incubus Elegan amp, and Focal Utopias. I have a high regard for the 1963 Melz but the 1967 is right up there with it IMHO.

Oh and for those asking about the filament current on the Incubus amp, it has a 1.9 amp capability on each filament winding.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> OK.
> 
> Here is my Copy and Paste.


Those have the same ( or they appear to) inners as the VT-99 and tall 7N7... Which sound stellar on my amps.. this would be an excellent addition.Nice grab. ☺️


----------



## Ripper2860

Wes S said:


> OK.
> 
> Here is my Copy and Paste.




You could have rented a nice cabin for a week in Brokenbow, Oklahoma for the price of that tube.


----------



## clrvlewis

I am currently reading this long, but very informative thread.  I purchased I Cary SLP-05 and had the Ultimate upgrade done.  It is one of my favorite pre-amps I have ever owned.  I use Focal Sopra 3's for my speakers and they are a little bright. I ordered 6 RCA 6SN7 GT's to use in the Cary.  I use balanced imputs and outputs so I have to use all 6.  The GT's sounds great but I think it might be a little bit to much of a good thing. using all 6. The top end is rolled off a little to much.

Just seeing if anyone has experience with the SLP-05 and tubes used.  I also have a Mullard rectifier as well.  The GT's set me back $800 so just hoping for some one with experience with the SLP-05 before I order the next batch of tubes. I am going to try a mix and match with the GT's and the EH that came with the Cary to see if I can bring back a little sparkle.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> You could have rented a nice cabin for a week in Brokenbow, Oklahoma for the price of that tube.


LOL, and that's about right!  I freaking love that place and I am into fly fishing as much as headphones, so I am up there all the time.  Also, I actually have a buddy from high-school that owns a cabin, so I stay for free.  So, the money I would have spent on a cabin, paid for that tube.   By the way, the tube was worth every penny I paid for it, as it is hands down the best 6SN7 I have heard in my BHC.


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Those have the same ( or they appear to) inners as the VT-99 and tall 7N7... Which sound stellar on my amps.. this would be an excellent addition.Nice grab. ☺


The internals of the Sylvania 6SN7W metal base and 7N7 (otherwise know as the Frankie) definitely look close, so I would love to hear one of those someday.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 6, 2020)

BTW -- Frankie does not have Umbrella top structure and is missing the support rod between the plates.  I also believe Frankies are gray plate as opposed to W's black.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 6, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- Frankie does not have Umbrella top structure and is missing the support rod between the plates.  I also believe Frankies are gray plate as opposed to W's black.


I knew you would have the answer, and think I will just stick with the W.  I thougt they had black plates and support rods, and must have been looking at the wrong tube?


----------



## Ripper2860

I have a few Ws and Frankies, although my Ws are the less desirable tall and short bottle versions w/ black phenolic base.


----------



## JKDJedi

The OG Frankie's


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> OK.
> 
> Here is my Copy and Paste.



Sweet!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am listening to a 1967 Melz 1578 before I replace its solder as well as two 1952 Fotons. The Melz is a lovely sounding tube. I am listening through a Schiit Gungnir, a loaded Incubus Elegan amp, and Focal Utopias. I have a high regard for the 1963 Melz but the 1967 is right up there with it IMHO.
> 
> Oh and for those asking about the filament current on the Incubus amp, it has a 1.9 amp capability on each filament winding.



Then I should only use one of these at a time, right?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Then I should only use one of these at a time, right?


Those are two 6080's in one?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Those are two 6080's in one?



Almost, at least as far as heater current (4.75 amps).


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- Frankie does not have Umbrella top structure and is missing the support rod between the plates.  I also believe Frankies are gray plate as opposed to W's black.



You mean you don't have any black plate Frankies?  Slacker. 

Seriously, as long as all the other FrankenParameters are met, I can't tell any difference sonically between the black plates and gray plates.


----------



## Ripper2860

Actually, I do.  Just happens that the JAN CBRZs I pulled to check were gray plate.  6 and 1/2 dozen as far as I can tell.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Actually, I do.  Just happens that the JAN CBRZs I pulled to check were gray plate.  6 and 1/2 dozen as far as I can tell.


Holy Collectors ..... Half dozen CBRZ...dude!

Philco 7N7 black plates.. (Sylvania?)


----------



## bcowen (Aug 6, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Holy Collectors ..... Half dozen CBRZ...dude!
> 
> Philco 7N7 black plates.. (Sylvania?)



99.9% chance it's a Sylvania. As far as I can tell, National Union was the only other manufacturer of this tube type, and the couple tall bottle NU's I have are distinctly different inside.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Those are two 6080's in one?


Bill cannot be trusted to select proper tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill cannot be trusted to select proper tubes.



I consider 'proper' to be a wholly subjective term.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I consider 'proper' to be a wholly subjective term.


I told you, you have .7 amp of breathing room, please be careful with that extra amount of freedom. Some people, geesh!!


----------



## Paladin79

I am really liking this Jan Sylvania 6c8g.
Higher gain than a 6sn7 and a surprisingly good sounding tube in my amp.


----------



## Ripper2860

Bill told me I had 7 amps of headroom and the the '.' was a burned out pixel on my monitor.  


Paladin79 said:


> I told you, you have .7 amp of breathing room, please be careful with that extra amount of freedom. Some people, geesh!!



Bill told me I had 7 amps of headroom and that the '.' in front of the 7 was a stuck pixel on my monitor.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 7, 2020)

The OG Frankie's

[/QUOTE]

The one below sure looks like it has black plates, and support rod, in this pic, but I see I was wrong.


----------



## Ripper2860

I have one with a support rod as well, but it's not the OG Frankie as described by @bcowen .  He gave me one w/ a support rod for free -- does anyone here really believe that Bill would offer up a Frankie for FREE!!??


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill told me I had 7 amps of headroom and the the '.' was a burned out pixel on my monitor.
> 
> 
> Bill told me I had 7 amps of headroom and that the '.' in front of the 7 was a stuck pixel on my monitor.



We needed someone to be the guinea pig for testing Incubus repair services, so we volunteered you.  Pretty nice of us, right?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> We needed someone to be the guinea pig for testing Incubus repair services, so we volunteered you.  Pretty nice of us, right?


Don’t you guys have Lyr 3’s you can stuff spurious tubes into????  Or at least wait a bit so I can gather my earnings and hide out somewhere.


----------



## Ripper2860

So you're saying if it works on a Lyr 3 it's a GO on Incubus??


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> So you're saying if it works on a Lyr 3 it's a GO on Incubus??


No I would say just keep them in the Lyr, they have a five year warranty and are used to dealing with um certain people.   
I will start telling you guys daily which tubes you can and cannot use in the Incubus, today Tung Sol 5998's and Fotons are safe, provided the Fotons have been re-soldered.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No I would say just keep them in the Lyr, they have a five year warranty and are used to dealing with um certain people.
> I will start telling you guys daily which tubes you can and cannot use in the Incubus, today Tung Sol 5998's and Fotons are safe, provided the Fotons have been re-soldered.



I think I may have a Foton in the stash, but I'll have to check.  But I know I don't have a TS 5998. Can I sub a 211 or 845?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I think I may have a Foton in the stash, but I'll have to check.  But I know I don't have a TS 5998. Can I sub a 211 or 845?


No substitutions ever!!  If you do not have a specific tube listen to music on your phone!!😉


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No substitutions ever!!  If you do not have a specific tube listen to music on your phone!!😉



Damn.  Perhaps you should solder the tubes in place like @johnjen to prevent people like me @Ripper2860 from 'accidents'.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Damn.  Perhaps you should solder the tubes in place like @johnjen to prevent people like me @Ripper2860 from 'accidents'.


It has crossed my mind lol but seriously as long as you guys know there is not a lot of wiggle room you should be fine. If I get an amp back with an open filament winding then there will be some serious talk about who pays for the transformer.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll save you the trouble -- it's Bill's fault.  It's always Bill's fault.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It has crossed my mind lol but seriously as long as you guys know there is not a lot of wiggle room you should be fine. If I get an amp back with an open filament winding then there will be some serious talk about who pays for the transformer.



Hopefully @Ripper2860 will share details with the group once you've had your talk with him.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hopefully @Ripper2860 will share details with the group once you've had your talk with him.


Well one of us is bound to lol.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll save you the trouble -- it's Bill's fault.  It's always Bill's fault.



You sound like my boss.


----------



## attmci (Aug 8, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I have one with a support rod as well, but it's not the OG Frankie as described by @bcowen .  He gave me one w/ a support rod for free -- does anyone here really believe that Bill would offer up a Frankie for FREE!!??


I do.

The catch is he want you to claim his OG F beats the B65 etc.


----------



## JKDJedi

Don't know much about Brimar... but....made in Japan!? 🤔


----------



## Ripper2860

I don't think so ...


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't think so ...


Someone suggested Brimar outsourced them to Japan... 😒


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm a huge fan of Brimar - made in UK Brimar, that is.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Don't know much about Brimar... but....made in Japan!? 🤔




Brimar is a made in UK tube, and has round plates.

This one is a fake one, it has flat plates. It is very likely a made in Japan tube, rebranded as Brimar.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Brimar is a made in UK tube, and has round plates.
> 
> This one is a fake one, it has flat plates. It is very likely a made in Japan tube, rebranded as Brimar.


Kinda had the same idea about it . Just wanted some back up before I go in and straighten some folks out. .😂


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Kinda had the same idea about it . Just wanted some back up before I go in and straighten some folks out. .😂




Aren't you in for a 3 week remission now after the holy grail GEC 6AS7G purchase today? ...  😅


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Aren't you in for a 3 week remission now after the holy grail GEC 6AS7G purchase today? ...  😅


😂😂 I'm just helping folks out, not buying any Brimars....not yet anyways 😁


----------



## JKDJedi

So there's reference out there that any tube with the stop sign logo with 6SN7GT in it, Sylvania tubes for example, are most likely made by RCA. 0.o What the Mercedes!? #blasphemy 

https://www.tubemuseum.org/SearchRe...is is why we see,at some time relabeled tubes!

*MEANINGLESS CODES by TUBE REMARKETERS:*

"Both Tung-Sol and RCA utilized the "Stop-Sign" logo [5751] in brackets. The "hole" in the top mica identifies these USA made tubes from the TUNG-SOL factory in Newark, New Jersey, USA in the 1950's.

THE UNITED-ELECTRIC RELABEL CODE 88-37 IS MEANINGLESS AS THEY SIMPLY RELABELED NEW OLD STOCK TUBES FROM TUNG-SOL. RCA, SYLVANIA, AND OTHERS. NO ONE MADE D-GETTER OR SQUARE-GETTER TUBES IN 1988! AND UNITED-ELECTRONICS WAS OUT OF BUSINESS IN 1988! SO 88-37 WAS UNITED-ELECTRONICS INTERNAL NUMBERING SYSTEM AND DID NOT SIGNIFY ANY MANUFACTURING DATE.

Especially, during the 1950's war effort, it was a common practice for USA factories to source tubes from each other and re-label them. When a government requirement for CV4017 tube specification came in a Request For Proposal (RFP) to the 4 major USA tube factories they all worked together to source from one another to fill the orders. This is why we see so many tubes made by Tung-Sol labeled as RCA, RCA made tubes labeled Sylvania, Sylvania made tubes labeled GE ... and so on, Sylvania, RCA, Tung-Sol and everyone else at some time relabeled tubes! This is why we have to LOOK AT THE ORIGINAL FACTORY CODES IF PRESENT (NOT THE UNITED ELECTRONICS RELABEL CODE),, and identify the real tube manufacturer by codes, inner construction, shape of the tip, and shape of the getter ring to determine the real origin of the tubes.

UNITED (United Electrics Company, Newark, N.J., USA) was a company that simply re-labeled Tung-Sol, RCA, Sylvania, and GE USA made tubes for resale".


----------



## bcowen (Aug 12, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂 I'm just helping folks out, not buying any Brimars....not yet anyways 😁



Forget that Japanese stuff.  Here's some nice Made in the USA Mullards.  I'm sure the similarity to an RCA is just due to the camera angle.  And only $150 (US) for this beautiful $20 pair of tubes.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-6AS7G-PAIR-OF-NEW-OLD-STOCK-TUBES/164322388270?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=225074&meid=da9900cec66b4c7aa3aff50b539b25b1&pid=100290&rk=2&rkt=4&sd=233674644603&itm=164322388270&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2060778&brand=Mullard&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507


----------



## cddc

They are 100% pure RCA flavor "Mullard", guaranteed  🤭🤭🤭


----------



## attmci

WOW  Now you know how good they are: "owner lost hearing as was forced to sell"

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/l...es-only-pair-in-the-world-for-sale-full-range

We have one top condition pair of super rare Genesis 1 speakers incl. servo amp and original factory crates. These speakers are recently crated and ready to ship - owner lost hearing as was forced to sell.  You know this speaker if you are looking at this ad and understand it is one of the worlds top 3 best speakers ever made - most would say #1 - but if you have ever heard a set you never forget that sound. Four columns, two large bass towers and two main arrays with servo amp to drive the bottom - just add a stereo amp and you are good to go. Available in the finish shown in the photos - feel free to call with any questions. We have sold more big used Genesis and Wilsons and shipped them worldwide that almost anyone so we know how to handle these properly and get them to you. Heat treated crates mean they can be shipped into any country, currently set for 120v operation for here in the USA.


----------



## JKDJedi

for the Gurus out there... I have a tube that the base was switched out on, looks a lot like a Sylvania but then I noticed today that the CBS-Hytron 6SN7GT tubes sort of look the same! Do Sylvania and CBS-Hytron share the same getter type? I'm thinking 1945-50 for this tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

JKDJedi said:


> for the Gurus out there... I have a tube that the base was switched out on, looks a lot like a Sylvania but then I noticed today that the CBS-Hytron 6SN7GT tubes sort of look the same! Do Sylvania and CBS-Hytron share the same getter type? I'm thinking 1945-50 for this tube.


It's bad when your replying to your own post..where did everybody go? Was it something I said? 
Anyways, I went ahead and ordered a CBS-Hytron to compare this too.


----------



## JKDJedi

National Union Day


----------



## JKDJedi

National Union Week? @Slade01 Thanks for  National Union  6C8G .. Very Nice.. Two Thumbs Up! (Pairs well with the Chatham 6AS7g)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> National Union Week? @Slade01 Thanks for  National Union  6C8G .. Very Nice.. Two Thumbs Up! (Pairs well with the Chatham 6AS7g)



Your Incubus grew wings!  Or are those solar panels?  Cool idea...no mains noise, no need for a power conditioner.  You 'da man!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Your Incubus grew wings!  Or are those solar panels?  Cool idea...no mains noise, no need for a power conditioner.  You 'da man!


I hear X Wings do a better job.. on the hunt!!  A Baby Yoda ?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I hear X Wings do a better job.. on the hunt!!  A Baby Yoda ?



LOL!

And I'll take your NU and raise you a KenRad.    





But I haven't listened to either of these in a very long time.  I'll give the NU a whirl too.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!
> 
> And I'll take your NU and raise you a KenRad.
> 
> ...


We buying from the same guy?   Let me know what you think of both.. I'm enjoying the NU right now have a few more to go..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> We buying from the same guy?   Let me know what you think of both.. I'm enjoying the NU right now have a few more to go..



LOL!  I'm gonna quit trying to one-up you.  I know when I'm beaten.     

I've had both of those for a couple years...just haven't whipped them out in a while.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'm gonna quit trying to one-up you.  I know when I'm beaten.
> 
> I've had both of those for a couple years...just haven't whipped them out in a while.


I got these the same day your 7193 showed up. Only had time for quick listen to the Ken Rad 6C8G last night and just finished some time with the NU 6C8G. Im not sure if I'm biased here or what but every NU tube I've listened too has impressed me so far. I think it's the laid-back delivery of these guys that I like so much. The 7193 comparison I did was a tough one... I almost "lost" your Ken Rads 😂🤣... Better ship this quick!! 😝


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> National Union Week? @Slade01 Thanks for  National Union  6C8G .. Very Nice.. Two Thumbs Up! (Pairs well with the Chatham 6AS7g)



No problem! I'm glad they have a good home!  National Union does make some really nice tubes.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'm gonna quit trying to one-up you.  I know when I'm beaten.
> 
> I've had both of those for a couple years...just haven't whipped them out in a while.



Yes exactly - I've had these tubes stashed away for a while, but not seeing the light of day.  Glad to see they are in good hands with @JKDJedi.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I got these the same day your 7193 showed up. Only had time for quick listen to the Ken Rad 6C8G last night and just finished some time with the NU 6C8G. Im not sure if I'm biased here or what but every NU tube I've listened too has impressed me so far. I think it's the laid-back delivery of these guys that I like so much. The 7193 comparison I did was a tough one... I almost "lost" your Ken Rads 😂🤣... Better ship this quick!! 😝



All I know is with these NU and Ken Rad 6C8Gs - whatever it is that makes them special, making me a true believer in the round plate design.  I mean there is something special about them and how they convey sound.  It's pretty incredible.


----------



## MarkR7

If anyone has an extra pair of National Union 6f8g round plates that need a good home, I’d be interested in them!


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 28, 2020)

I am using a 6C8G RCA myself, I may need to buy other examples.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> All I know is with these NU and Ken Rad 6C8Gs - whatever it is that makes them special, making me a true believer in the round plate design.  I mean there is something special about them and how they convey sound.  It's pretty incredible.



I really like the Tung Sol 6J5's I have...with round plates.


----------



## Paladin79

I just committed to buy a large group of these new in the box, my favorite Melz 1578. I have made several purchases from this seller and they are NOS with original paperwork and boxes.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I just committed to buy a large group of these new in the box, my favorite Melz 1578. I have made several purchases from this seller and they are NOS with original paperwork and boxes.


Save one for me please. .


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Save one for me please. .


will do.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Save one for me please. .



One?  What about a backup? And a backup for the backup?  I'm starting to worry about you.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 5, 2020)

bcowen said:


> One?  What about a backup? And a backup for the backup?  I'm starting to worry about you.


Well I do have my personal stash and those are sacrosanct. I have included some in amp builds, not yours of course but important people.   Giving you good tubes is just feeding the monkey.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well I do have my personal stash and those are sacrosanct. I have included some in amp builds, not yours of course but important people.   Giving you good tubes is just feeding the monkey.



Dang.  Somehow I feel like I should feel diminished. But then I go look at my Foton stash and feel undiminished again.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 5, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Dang.  Somehow I feel like I should feel diminished. But then I go look at my Foton stash and feel undiminished again.


I am listening to some Fotons as we speak, I re-soldered a 51, a couple 52's and a couple 58's. I do this for people you know, not those of your ilk and guile but people lol.
Listening in my best build with some Utopias, life is good. Some of the handwriting on the tube boxes looks vaguely familiar but I have never known you to give up a tube if you can find a way not to.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am listening to some Fotons as we speak, I re-soldered a 51, a couple 52's and a couple 58's. I do this for people you know, not those of your ilk and guile but people lol.
> Listening in my best build with some Utopias, life is good. Some of the handwriting on the tube boxes looks vaguely familiar but I have never known you to give up a tube if you can find a way not to.



IIRC, I had a senior moment and put your address on the shipping box by mistake.  Oh well.  I have more.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am listening to some Fotons as we speak, I re-soldered a 51, a couple 52's and a couple 58's. I do this for people you know, not those of your ilk and guile but people lol.
> Listening in my best build with some Utopias, life is good.





bcowen said:


> One?  What about a backup? And a backup for the backup?  I'm starting to worry about you.


Have a 71' Melz that I'm anxious to compare to the much celebrated 63'  At nearly $100 a pop...not hoarding on these guys..


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 5, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Have a 71' Melz that I'm anxious to compare to the much celebrated 63'  At nearly $100 a pop...not hoarding on these guys..


Money is flooding into my PayPal account, looks like I can afford the good single malt this holiday weekend. And amazingly enough the last time I ordered from Russia I got the package in eleven days, previous time took two months. The package sat in Chicago for a month.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Money is flooding into my PayPal account, looks like I can afford the good single malt this holiday weekend. And amazingly enough the last time I ordered from Russia I got the package in eleven days, previous time took two months.


Enjoy!   And thanks again


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Enjoy!   And thanks again


You are most welcome Jedi, just be sure and tell @bcowen how great it sounds in your deluxe version of the Incubus.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are most welcome Jedi, just be sure and tell @bcowen how great it sounds in your deluxe version of the Incubus.



I'm really beginning to not like you as much as @Ripper2860 .


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 5, 2020)

@bcowen  -- Quit whining.  Your amp was built sideways at your insistence.  A sideways amp produces sound 90 degrees out of phase from the original signal, so of course all the other Incubus amps are gonna sound better.  It's not like Tom can do anything to about that -- it's physics! 🙄


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I'm really beginning to not like you as much as @Ripper2860 .


😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣😘 (I'm sure he's joking)😁😁


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣😘 (I'm sure he's joking)😁😁
> 
> Bill has to be semi kind to me in case his sideways amp goes sideways.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen  -- Quit whining.  Your amp was built sideways at your insistence.  A sideways amp produces sound 90 degrees out of phase from the original signal, so of course all the other Incubus amps are gonna sound better.  It's not like Tom can do anything to about that -- it's physics! 🙄



OK, I'm back to not liking you most.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 6, 2020)

bcowen said:


> OK, I'm back to not liking you most.


Some serious frenemy vibe going down on this thread!  t's all in good fun, right? if so, the rest of us will just "roll" with it.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Some serious frenemy vibe going down on this thread!  t's all in good fun, right? if so, the rest of us will just "roll" with it.



Yes, all in good fun to be sure.


----------



## Paladin79

All three of them use a headphone amp I designed specifically for 6sn7 tubes so it is always good to learn of their experiences with various tubes. I am particular interested in the GEC L63's and power tube @bcowen is listening to and hoping he sends a set my way.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> All three of them use a headphone amp I designed specifically for 6sn7 tubes so it is always good to learn of their experiences with various tubes. I am particular interested in the GEC L63's and power tube @bcowen is listening to and hoping he sends a set my way.



LOL!  I only send you GE's with low GM or dead shorts.  Now you want something different?  

Of course, anything is possible when amp upgrades might be involved.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 7, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I only send you GE's with low GM or dead shorts.  Now you want something different?
> 
> Of course, anything is possible when amp upgrades might be involved.


Ok send me a GEC pair and a WE along with your amp and and I will help you out. Before long @FLTWS will have heard both versions side by side so he might be able to shed some light on the changes. Just remember his version one is no slouch.

Have you described the GEC here? That might get us back on topic a bit.

I just located some 1956 Melz that seem to be few and far between. It has some of the traits of the 1578 but not the perforated plates, I got one by accident and consider it near the top of 6sn7 equivalents I own.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I only send you GE's with low GM or dead shorts.  Now you want something different?
> 
> Of course, anything is possible when amp upgrades might be involved.


I don't think it's too difficult to put a "C" after the "GE" and a "L63" anywhere on the tube. Bangbangbang.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 6, 2020)

bcowen said:


> OK, I'm back to not liking you most.



My work here is done.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Have you described the GEC here? That might get us back on topic a bit.



I don't think so.  Since this is a 6SN7 thread and the L63 is a 6J5 sub with only one triode, my comments would have only been 50% appropriate (which, of course, is 100% more appropriate than usual   ).

I'm finding a lot to like with these. Glorious midrange and a sweet yet detailed treble. Not the last word in bass punch, but the bass that is there is very nicely defined with good extension.  Adapter needed of course to drop a pair in a 6SN7 socket (adapter shown below from @Deyan ). Langrex (through Ebay) still has these available -- not cheap, but not stupid-priced like many genuine GEC's these days...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/L63-CV1067...785746?hash=item48a5d41812:g:BK8AAOSwH7ZdeoEt


----------



## maxemil

Can anyone help me identifying the production code of my NOS Sylvania 6SL7 GT VT-229. I could not find anything online pertaining this odd code type.

Thanks a lot.


----------



## JKDJedi

maxemil said:


> Can anyone help me identifying the production code of my NOS Sylvania 6SL7 GT VT-229. I could not find anything online pertaining this odd code type.
> 
> Thanks a lot.


the 582 throws me off...as there is only 52 weeks in a year.. so..my uneducated guess is... (from the next string of numbers...) 1958..5th week (Feb)


----------



## maxemil

Did Sylvania really make the GTs until 1958???


----------



## JKDJedi

maxemil said:


> Did Sylvania really make the GTs until 1958???


Good question! Believe they only made them to 54... So yeah... Those numbers could be anything. Not use to seeing two rows like that. Is that a GT??


----------



## Slade01

maxemil said:


> Did Sylvania really make the GTs until 1958???



Is your tube actually labeled a vt-229?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Is your tube actually labeled a vt-229?


@Slade01 Have you ever tried rolling one of them 6SL7 in place of the 6SN7? Just curious as the 6C8G is supposedly an 6SL7 equivalent. Or stay away from that idea?


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> @Slade01 Have you ever tried rolling one of them 6SL7 in place of the 6SN7? Just curious as the 6C8G is supposedly an 6SL7 equivalent. Or stay away from that idea?



If we're talking on the darkvoice- i have stayed away from this. Two things that I noted with the 6SL7 from my research through posts:


While the 6SL7 has a lower heater current than the 6SN7, the amplification factor is allegedly super high (6SL7 at 70x, vs 6SN7 at 20x)...meaning it will probably end up causing too much distortion or clipping.     
A quote that i noted from the darkvoice tube rolling thread which I took as a warning:  





> _As for the 6SL7 don't go there, it will bias the 6AS7 too hot for the DV power supply. The 6SN7 and the 6AS7 are direct coupled, so the front end sets bias for the output. There is a 20 watt power supply resistor in there you are *liable* to cook."_



So with the alleged risk of too much distortion or cooking resistors, I stayed away from the 6SL7.  I also thought there was a user who accidentally used a 6SL7 and did not end up with good results (thought his DV was broke) or something to that effect.  Maybe someone brave could prove this wrong, but yeah, I stayed away from the idea.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Good question! Believe they only made them to 54... So yeah... Those numbers could be anything. Not use to seeing two rows like that. Is that a GT??



I asked about the VT designation, if it has VT-229 actually printed, it could only go up to 1953/1954.  But regular consumer label it's definitely possible Sylvania made 6SL7s from 1954 into at least the mid 60s.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I asked about the VT designation, if it has VT-229 actually printed, it could only go up to 1953/1954.  But regular consumer label it's definitely possible Sylvania made 6SL7s from 1954 into at least the mid 60s.


I thought those only went to 1945? or is that just with VT-231?


----------



## maxemil

Thank you guys for trying to help me with my Sylvania 6SL7GT puzzle. Actually I am a tube rolling novice (on my LM508ia and EAR 834 clone) and appreciate any help in my learning journey I can get!

Actually I am not sure if is a VT-229. However it seems to be a GT. Please see attached picture.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I thought those only went to 1945? or is that just with VT-231?



That was my assumption as well, but designated VT-229 (JAN CHS 6SL7GT) has date codes beyond 45...into the mid 50s.  I've seen this based on what was being sold in the market.  For example:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-NOS-NIB-S...099357?hash=item2d1282f01d:g:PX8AAOSw26ZfFMGW

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VT-229-JAN...TUBE-BLACK-PLATES-SC966A-3L-WOW-/333186710720


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> That was my assumption as well, but designated VT-229 (JAN CHS 6SL7GT) has date codes beyond 45...into the mid 50s.  I've seen this based on what was being sold in the market.  For example:
> 
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-NOS-NIB-S...099357?hash=item2d1282f01d:g:PX8AAOSw26ZfFMGW
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/VT-229-JAN...TUBE-BLACK-PLATES-SC966A-3L-WOW-/333186710720


The Navy assigned codes under its own system, that's were that (JAN ) deal comes from. The VT numbers were assigned to radio tubes between 1916-17 to 1942 by The Signal Corps. After 1942 the list mushroomed out of control. That's what I'm reading... Don't know the details. I got the 1945 date from the OP of this thread on VT-231. That date/year coincides with the end of WWII.  So now I'm confused...🤣 Especially with that listing there of a 1950 VT-229.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> The Navy assigned codes under its own system, that's were that (JAN ) deal comes from. The VT numbers were assigned to radio tubes between 1916-17 to 1942 by The Signal Corps. After 1942 the list mushroomed out of control. That's what I'm reading... Don't know the details. I got the 1945 date from the OP of this thread on VT-231. That date/year coincides with the end of WWII.  So now I'm confused...🤣 Especially with that listing there of a 1950 VT-229.



For Sylvania VT-231, definitely only made in the 40s so it makes sense about the 1945 date....although Raytheon made VT-231 into the 50s.  But For the VT-229, Sylvania made them into the 50s.  Even if the war ended, im sure the military still had equipment and applications they used tubes for post-war.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> For Sylvania VT-231, definitely only made in the 40s so it makes sense about the 1945 date....although Raytheon made VT-231 into the 50s.  But For the VT-229, Sylvania made them into the 50s.  Even if the war ended, im sure the military still had equipment and applications they used tubes for post-war.


Learn something every day. Check this out, VT tubes were listed in three different variant classifications, some of them with multiple different tube types per class.  Huge list of them...
http://www.audiotubes.com/VT crossreference.htm


----------



## sennfan83261

maxemil said:


> Thank you guys for trying to help me with my Sylvania 6SL7GT puzzle. Actually I am a tube rolling novice (on my LM508ia and EAR 834 clone) and appreciate any help in my learning journey I can get!



From my post in the other 6SN7 thread (how many are there these days?):



sennfan83261 said:


> Usually that's the EIA code showing which tube manufacturer made the tube because the conventional numbering scheme for triple digit identifiers that denote the time of manufacture around that time had the first digit as the year and the last two digits as the week of the year; Sylvania adopted this date code scheme in 1947 (http://www.dvhrc.com/pdfs/February_1996.pdf). Obviously there's only 52 weeks in a year not 82, so the first triple digit identifier looks like an EIA code. However, "582" does not seem to align with typical EIA codes shown in tube sites: https://tubesound.com/who-manufactured-your-tube/
> 
> However, here's a fuller list of EIA codes as of 1961: https://www.ecianow.org/assets/docs/EIAStandards/1.7.4_EIAcodes1961.pdf
> 
> ...


----------



## JKDJedi

Well.. first impressions on the tube was ....where's the printing!? Lit it up with my phone's flashlight...and like a blue light looking for fingerprint. .it glowed at me... Freakn awesome.  Thanks @Paladin79 , excellent tube, very smooth, tone even across the board, very nice. The other Melz I have is a 71' energy driven especially in the mids... These compliment each other well. Happy Camper. 😁
63' Melz

71 Melz

63 Melz & 7236 Tung Sol


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Well.. first impressions on the tube was ....where's the printing!? Lit it up with my phone's flashlight...and like a blue light looking for fingerprint. .it glowed at me... Freakn awesome.  Thanks @Paladin79 , excellent tube, very smooth, tone even across the board, very nice. The other Melz I have is a 71' energy driven especially in the mids... These compliment each other well. Happy Camper. 😁
> 63' Melz
> 
> 71 Melz
> ...


LOL I am glad you found the etching. The tubes are 57 years old so maybe the logo does fade a bit. And I know the sound of the other Melz so I keep some of them as well.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Well.. first impressions on the tube was ....where's the printing!?



I suspect some fondling occurred before you received it which probably diminished the print visibility.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I suspect some fondling occurred before you received it which probably diminished the print visibility.


Hell's ducks man! I do not have an attraction to Russian tubes, Sylvania naughty girls might be another matter.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I suspect some fondling occurred before you received it which probably diminished the print visibility.


How did it past customs?? (up someones as.... never mind...   )

And today's lesson is...

    Among the common *applications* of *vacuum tubes* are amplification of a weak current, rectification of an alternating current (AC) to direct current (DC), generation of oscillating radio-frequency (RF) power for radio and radar, and creation of images on a television screen or computer monitor.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Among the common *applications* of *vacuum tubes* are amplification of a weak current, rectification of an alternating current (AC) to direct current (DC), generation of oscillating radio-frequency (RF) power for radio and radar, and creation of images on a television screen or computer monitor.



Thanks for that...I had no idea.  I thought they were only for making your stereo look cool.


----------



## highstream

6F8G not 6SN7, but not sure where to find a current thread where people are knowledgeable, so I'll try here... I came across this pair of Sylvania 6F8G-VT99 and noticed that they are different heights, which the seller confirms. Does that likely mean different years? Anything to know about that -- or otherwise? Thanks,


----------



## JKDJedi

highstream said:


> 6F8G not 6SN7, but not sure where to find a current thread where people are knowledgeable, so I'll try here... I came across this pair of Sylvania 6F8G-VT99 and noticed that they are different heights, which the seller confirms. Does that likely mean different years? Anything to know about that -- or otherwise? Thanks,


That would be mine conclusion, different years. Great tube.


----------



## Tom-s (Sep 16, 2020)

Height difference is not related with tubes being from different years. Especially in the '20s, '30s and '40s a height difference within a batch was normal.
Here's an example of a same date (see Tax sticker), so about the same age, pair of Fivre 76 tubes. Notice the height difference?
In this post i show more of these also with a minor height difference. Even early 9 pin tubes, '50s pinched waist types, have this within a single batch.


----------



## sennfan83261

highstream said:


> 6F8G not 6SN7, but not sure where to find a current thread where people are knowledgeable, so I'll try here... I came across this pair of Sylvania 6F8G-VT99 and noticed that they are different heights, which the seller confirms.


If they are of the same age, it looks like one was sent off to war and the other one rode out the war while being in the National Guard, lol.


----------



## Slade01

sennfan83261 said:


> If they are of the same age, it looks like one was sent off to war and the other one rode out the war while being in the National Guard, lol.



Lol. Seriously, maybe one is a b-stock tube.  In all seriousness, I know from experience with RCA tubes, they had tubes that were deemed "substandard" or "M/R" that for some reason or other were not up to standard spec.  Though I don't think glass height would affect operating specs that much.


----------



## highstream (Sep 19, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. If the tubes have different histories, that could also account for the different external wear patterns.

Tom-s, interesting you linked to a Fivre. I picked up a couple different sized 1940's Fivre 5U4G's from an Italian dealer a few months ago, one of which turned out to be really enjoyable in my Supratek preamp, although a few weeks ago I got another USAF 596 which is a notch better for my purposes. I also have a Fivre 5R4GY, which is supposed to be the best of them, coming slow boat from Germany.


----------



## JKDJedi

This baby measured near death on the listing... (1700/1400Gm) And for $20 I couldn't resist .. will I still get the "sound" of the TSRP??


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> This baby measured near death on the listing... (1700/1400Gm) And for $20 I couldn't resist .. will I still get the "sound" of the TSRP??



What is the branding listed on that tube?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> What is the branding listed on that tube?


*Hyvac* (I've never heard of them)


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> *Hyvac* (I've never heard of them)



Really good find.  The lettering print just looked interesting (stands out).  Even if the tube us 1700/1400 it should last you a good long while.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Really good find.  The lettering print just looked interesting (stands out).  Even if the tube us 1700/1400 it should last you a good long while.


Thanks @Slade01 did a quick (dirty resoldering) and will test this later this week. (see if the soldering changes things as far as measurements go)


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 24, 2020)

I am going through some NOS 1963 Melz I just got. Some logos are more pronounced as @JKDJedi found out.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am going through some NOS 1963 Melz I just got. Some logos are more pronounced as @JKDJedi found out.


The Beez Kneez... 😁


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> The Beez Kneez... 😁


Lol I need to hang on to some for myself but it is never easy, if course I have a Freya, Lyr 3 and Incubus amps that favor them.


----------



## bpiotrow13

Hi All, i have an opportunity to buy RCA 6SN7GTB. Could anyone tell how is it different to RCA 6SN7GT, which i think is equivalent?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 27, 2020)

bpiotrow13 said:


> Hi All, i have an opportunity to buy RCA 6SN7GTB. Could anyone tell how is it different to RCA 6SN7GT, which i think is equivalent?



The -GTB version has controlled heater warm-up and handles higher voltage and current than the regular -GT. The first page of this thread has a nice summary of the differences in 6SN7 types.


----------



## bpiotrow13

bcowen said:


> The -GTB version has controlled heater warm-up and handles higher voltage and current than the regular -GT. The first page of this thread has a nice summary of the differences in 6SN7 types.


Thanks, i have read it. Is there a difference in sound between rca 6sn7gt and 6sn7gtb? Also, just wanted to make sure i can use 6sn7gtb as a substitute for 6sn7gt.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 28, 2020)

You can use the GTB in place of GT tube, however, if an amp is specifically designed for GTB and delivers the higher plate voltage, then one cannot use a GT in place of a GTB -- if that makes sense.

As far as sound goes -- there are good and bad GTs just as there are good and bad GTBs.  One of my favorite tubes is a Westinghouse Reliatron GTB, so I would hesitate to say that all GTs sound better or that all GTBs sound worse.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 28, 2020)

bpiotrow13 said:


> Thanks, i have read it. Is there a difference in sound between rca 6sn7gt and 6sn7gtb? Also, just wanted to make sure i can use 6sn7gtb as a substitute for 6sn7gt.



If your amp is set up to run GT's you can quite safely substitute GTB's. Sometimes not the other way around, although that is rare. Will the GTB's sound different? Quite likely, but whether they sound better (or worse) is a subjective thing that only you can determine.


----------



## bpiotrow13

bcowen said:


> If your amp is set up to run GT's you can quite safely substitute GTB's. Sometimes not the other way around, although that is rare. Will the GTB's sound different? Quite likely, but whether they sound better (or worse) is a subjective thing that only you can determine.


Thanks, seems GTB would be fine.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 6, 2020)

I just acquired some Melz NOS from 1958, they are not that easy to find but I love their sound. A deep rich bass and mids to die for, this has all the characteristics of my favorite 1578's except for perforated plates and the  higher price tag. I will warn that these are not easy to find, most will have round bottom mica and mica wings at the top. I searched for over six months before I saw some for sale out of Russia.


.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I just acquired some Melz NOS from 1958, they are not that easy to find but I love their sound. A deep rich bass and mids to die for, this has all the characteristics of my favorite 1578's except for perforated plates and the  higher price tag. I will warn that these are not easy to find, most will have round bottom mica and mica wings at the top. I searched for over six months before I saw some for sale out of Russia.
> 
> 
> .


Did you resolder them, as always?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I just acquired some Melz NOS from 1958, they are not that easy to find but I love their sound. A deep rich bass and mids to die for, this has all the characteristics of my favorite 1578's except for perforated plates and the  higher price tag. I will warn that these are not easy to find, most will have round bottom mica and mica wings at the top. I searched for over six months before I saw some for sale out of Russia.
> 
> 
> .


Interesting plate design. Hytron & Sylvania come to mind with that design, are there other manufacturers that used this plate design?


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Did you resolder them, as always?


Absolutely


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Interesting plate design. Hytron & Sylvania come to mind with that design, are there other manufacturers that used this plate design?


I can look at some other tubes but really you need to look no further than your 1963 Melz. Just imagine those plates without the perforations, and you have the 58 with solid plates.

I must say the bass on this tube does seem to exceed that of the Melz 1578's I own and the mids and highs are identical to the 63's. I had a couple employees listen and they fell in love with the tube, I am also going to send one on to another friend for evaluation. He has two of my Incubus amps as well as IC cables I made for him and I respect his listening abilities and judgement. I offered to lend one to @bcowen but he either ignored the offer or he dozed off and went face first into his bowl of Captain Crunch cereal and lost track of my offer.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I can look at some other tubes but really you need to look no further than your 1963 Melz. Just imagine those plates without the perforations, and you have the 58 with solid plates.
> 
> I must say the bass on this tube does seem to exceed that of the Melz 1578's I own and the mids and highs are identical to the 63's. I had a couple employees listen and they fell in love with the tube, I am also going to send one on to another friend for evaluation. He has two of my Incubus amps as well as IC cables I made for him and I respect his listening abilities and judgement. I offered to lend one to @bcowen but he either ignored the offer or he dozed off and went face first into his bowl of Captain Crunch cereal and lost track of my offer.


L m F A o...


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 14, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> L m F A o...




I finally went with a socket saver since I change out tubes pretty often in my amp. This is the 58 Melz with a Tung Sol 5998, this sound is ideal for me, YMMV. If I get a semi-serious review of the 58 I will post it. I hate to have folks buy tubes on my recommendation alone so I get others involved. If they give a bad review, I can just say I barely know them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can look at some other tubes but really you need to look no further than your 1963 Melz. Just imagine those plates without the perforations, and you have the 58 with solid plates.
> 
> I must say the bass on this tube does seem to exceed that of the Melz 1578's I own and the mids and highs are identical to the 63's. I had a couple employees listen and they fell in love with the tube, I am also going to send one on to another friend for evaluation. He has two of my Incubus amps as well as IC cables I made for him and I respect his listening abilities and judgement. I offered to lend one to @bcowen but he either ignored the offer or he dozed off and went face first into his bowl of Captain Crunch cereal and lost track of my offer.



I was probably busy resuscitating the B&K tester for @JKDJedi . Either that or recuperating from electrocuting myself.  Either way, I'm blaming it on him.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was probably busy resuscitating the B&K tester for @JKDJedi . Either that or recuperating from electrocuting myself.  Either way, I'm blaming it on him.


Ok, maybe, just maybe I can get the sample tube sent on to you but I will want it returned to me unharmed. I will need your, as well as your cats paw print on the contract. Maybe you can give me a phone number for your local neighborhood watch so I can have them keep an eye on you with the tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok, maybe, just maybe I can get the sample tube sent on to you but I will want it returned to me unharmed. I will need your, as well as your cats paw print on the contract. Maybe you can give me a phone number for your local neighborhood watch so I can have them keep an eye on you with the tube.



I promise to return it with no more than 4000 hours on it.  Just to get it, you know, properly broken-in since you seem to neglect that step all too frequently.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I promise to return it with no more than 4000 hours on it.  Just to get it, you know, properly broken-in since you seem to neglect that step all too frequently.


Send it to me for that other 4000 hours. ..just to be safe. These tubes can be ornery. 😁


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I promise to return it with no more than 4000 hours on it.  Just to get it, you know, properly broken-in since you seem to neglect that step all too frequently.


Some dingbat used to tell me of tubes that needed 100 hours of break-in but I am more apt to take the minimalist approach. Often I will just move the tubes close to the tube sockets and imagine what they might sound like. Seriously with new solder in the pins of 60 year old tubes, 10 hours and under is fine for me.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Send it to me for that other 4000 hours. ..just to be safe. These tubes can be ornery. 😁



LOL!  I'm guessing @Paladin79 would balk at that by insisting that re-soldering the pins makes 4000 hours sufficient.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'm guessing @Paladin79 would balk at that by insisting that re-soldering the pins makes 4000 hours sufficient.


I should just let @sam6550a check out the tube instead, he is far more stable and reasonable, you guys worry me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I should just let @sam6550a check out the tube instead, he is far more stable and reasonable, you guys worry me.



We're discussing high end audio here.  Remind me again how stability and reason apply?


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I should just let @sam6550a check out the tube instead, he is far more stable and reasonable, you guys worry me.


Me stable? Don't ask my wife to voice her opinion.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Me stable? Don't ask my wife to voice her opinion.


All things are relative, compared to a couple guys here you are a stable genius. No need to mention any names though.   

So anyway the magical 1958 Melz is on its way to a friend in Pennsylvania, I forget what amp you use Sam, maybe a Lyr 3?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> We're discussing high end audio here.  Remind me again how stability and reason apply?


Hells ducks man! Stop using logic, it does not behoove you.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> All things are relative, compared to a couple guys here you are a stable genius. No need to mention any names though.
> 
> So anyway the magical 1958 Melz is on its way to a friend in Pennsylvania, I forget what amp you use Sam, maybe a Lyr 3?


_I have a Saga, a Freya [all first gen]. and a highly modified  ST-70 powe amp that uses 6SN7s in the voltage amp and phase inverter stages._


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 15, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> _I have a Saga, a Freya [all first gen]. and a highly modified  ST-70 powe amp that uses 6SN7s in the voltage amp and phase inverter stages._


If you can hear tube differences in the Saga that could be the way to go, I do not have enough of these to send two out. I do have matched sets of 1963 Melz 1578's, Cowen and Jedi know those, as well as Ripper. I bought all a friend had just to help him out.

I run a quad of the 63 1578's in my Freya +, some of the other years like the 80's versions had killer mids but they did not have the balance of the 63's. The 58 solid plate Melz seem to have the bass thump of the older Fotons with superb mids and highs, IMHO.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> If you can hear tube differences in the Saga that could be the way to go, I do not have enough of these to send two out. I do have matched sets of 1963 Melz 1578's, Cowen and Jedi know those, as well as Ripper. I bought all a friend had just to help him out.
> 
> I run a quad of the 63 1578's in my Freya +, some of the other years like the 80's versions had killer mids but they did not have the balance of the 63's. The 58 solid plate Melz seem to have the bass thump of the older Fotons with superb mids and highs, IMHO.


I certainly can hear tube differences in Saga. Currently running flat plate RCA branded Lowry.


----------



## Odin412

sam6550a said:


> I certainly can hear tube differences in Saga. Currently running flat plate RCA branded Lowry.



Same here. I'm currently running a new-production Psvane tube.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 16, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> I certainly can hear tube differences in Saga. Currently running flat plate RCA branded Lowry.



That is good to know. The Saga is the only tube device I have not owned yet when Jason ran a blind test using my tubes and four of the Saga, he said it was hard to tell much difference because it acts as a tube buffer. Not being there for the shootout and not owning a Saga, I was not certain how much you would hear. There is also a big difference between hearing four devices switched back and forth using power amps and speakers. Spending days with each tube and listening to a wide range of music is always more revealing I would think. Personally I prefer headphone amps to discern a difference and I geared one of my designs to picking up on said differences.

The listener is also a factor, @bcowen heard some of the same tubes Jason heard and did very well picking out differences on a Lyr 3, I am hard pressed to do the same with that amp and I listen to a lot of tubes. Running one of my Incubus amps with Focal Utopias or Senn 800's makes those differences more apparent to a very large group of people.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> That is good to know. The Saga is the only tube device I have not owned yet when Jason ran a blind test using my tubes and four of the Saga, he said it was hard to tell much difference because it acts as a tube buffer. Not being there for the shootout and not owning a Saga, I was not certain how much you would hear. There is also a big difference between hearing four devices switched back and forth using power amps and speakers. Spending days with each tube and listening to a wide range of music is always more revealing I would think. Personally I prefer headphone amps to discern a difference and I geared one of my designs to picking up on said differences.
> 
> The listener is also a factor, @bcowen heard some of the same tubes Jason heard and did very well picking out differences on a Lyr 3, I am hard pressed to do the same with that amp and I listen to a lot of tubes. Running one of my Incubus amps with Focal Utopias or Senn 800's makes those differences more apparent to a very large group of people.
> 
> escape me.


Trom what I have read on this forum, @bcowen posesses extraordinary auditory detection and analysis capability. I can detect gross differences [like NOS Russian to NOS US tubes], but the fine nuanced differences escape me.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Trom what I have read on this forum, @bcowen posesses extraordinary auditory detection and analysis capability. I can detect gross differences [like NOS Russian to NOS US tubes], but the fine nuanced differences escape me.


Bill proved that to me himself. I encapsulated each tube and used sealing wax with an impression in the wax so I could tell if they were tampered with. I also used Identical tube extenders so nothing could be learned from the bottom of the tube base. He picked several of the tubes correctly and had not heard at least one I can recall, a black glass Ken Rad VT-231.

 My audiophile group came up with music recorded to show twenty five different nuances and I built four identical revealing amps to hear all we could with 6sn7 equivalents. We also have a high mix of younger grad students from audio engineering to performance artists we like to use for testing, as well as some of the older folks who have been around audio for a very long time. In our testing there is no price tag or expectation bias, at the end of the day we know one tube scored 96 compared to another that scored 93 when all scores are averaged. Similar scoring is done by 8 very qualified people in order for a tube to get into the final 52 we will compare. I am getting the 1958 Melz solid plate in for such testing as I have done with the 1963 Melz 1578. This is going very slowly right now because of Covid but within a couple weeks I should know how the 58 does and I will have the opinion of a few folks on here as well, possibly even Bill if he behaves himself.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Trom what I have read on this forum, @bcowen posesses extraordinary auditory detection and analysis capability. I can detect gross differences [like NOS Russian to NOS US tubes], but the fine nuanced differences escape me.



You guys are too kind.  It's all from a misspent youth listening to tubes instead of going to school.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ...possibly even Bill if he behaves himself.



Why do there _*always*_ have to be conditions? And difficult ones at that?


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Why do there _*always*_ have to be conditions? And difficult ones at that?


He did not say HOW he expects you to behave.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> He did not say HOW he expects you to behave.


The opposite of his usual self.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> The opposite of his usual self.


That leaves a lot of maneuvering room!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The opposite of his usual self.



So then like @Ripper2860 ?  Man, that's harsh.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So then like @Ripper2860 ?  Man, that's harsh.


Trying to get back on topic, I may have a line on more of the solid plate Melz I like but it is too early to say for sure.

I will eventually get one to you after a few other friends hear one. I have to be sure it is worthy of your ears.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> _I have to be sure it is worthy of your ears._



I'm delighted we're finally back on topic.  LOL!!!


----------



## attmci (Oct 16, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Bill proved that to me himself. I encapsulated each tube and used sealing wax with an impression in the wax so I could tell if they were tampered with. I also used Identical tube extenders so nothing could be learned from the bottom of the tube base. He picked several of the tubes correctly and had not heard at least one I can recall, a black glass Ken Rad VT-231.
> 
> My audiophile group came up with music recorded to show twenty five different nuances and I built four identical revealing amps to hear all we could with 6sn7 equivalents. We also have a high mix of younger grad students from audio engineering to performance artists we like to use for testing, as well as some of the older folks who have been around audio for a very long time. In our testing there is no price tag or expectation bias, at the end of the day we know one tube scored 96 compared to another that scored 93 when all scores are averaged. Similar scoring is done by 8 very qualified people in order for a tube to get into the final 52 we will compare. I am getting the 1958 Melz solid plate in for such testing as I have done with the 1963 Melz 1578. This is going very slowly right now because of Covid but within a couple weeks I should know how the 58 does and I will have the opinion of a few folks on here as well, possibly even Bill if he behaves himself.


BBiillll has the talent to rejuvenation/replace/reseal many of these "sealed" tubes. So any report from the Bill Lab is questionable (i.e. a solid plate Melz sounds better than tube xx/yy/zz/3344/4433 etc.). Just my 2c.

So please use the tube you like and call it a day.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 17, 2020)

attmci said:


> BBiillll has the talent to rejuvenation/replace/reseal many of these "sealed" tubes. So any report from the Bill Lab is questionable (i.e. a solid plate Melz sounds better than tube xx/yy/zz/3344/4433 etc.). Just my 2c.
> 
> So please use the tube you like and call it a day.


LOL, funny.

Bill has the talent to hear a difference and there was a bet involved. Bill stated he could tell a GE tube in the group and it came down to two tubes and he lost the bet. I gifted Jedi his favorite tube from a few still in pvc, he can tell you how easy it was to remove a tube without melting the pvc enclosure.  Hot glue was used as well. I have removed some myself and I know what it is like.

Of course people listen to tubes they like but if they could not hear a difference I suppose they would like all tubes equally.

The solid plate Melz is a fairly recent discovery so Bill has never heard one as far as I know. All of his 50's Melz had different configurations.  I am sending a sample to friends to get their opinion and as always, they might still prefer other tubes. I have never had the belief that if I like a tube, other folks will like it equally.

Many of the Melz perforated plate tubes go for $90 to $120 depending on shipping and this tube sells for half that when they can be found. I only own three of the 1958's and I am not selling any so please do not think this is an effort to hype the tube. My local group is working on a comparison of most any 6sn7 equivalent out there and we are always looking for variations.

Oh and I have promised a few people they can hear the tube but it is not my intent to exclude anyone so those who is curious can always PM me and I would see about the tube going to them at some point.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, funny.
> 
> Bill has the talent to hear a difference and there was a bet involved. Bill stated he could tell a GE tube in the group and it came down to two tubes and he lost the bet. I gifted Jedi his favorite tube from a few still in pvc, he can tell you how easy it was to remove a tube without melting the pvc enclosure.  Hot glue was used as well. I have removed some myself and I know what it is like.
> 
> ...



ROFL!!  I stepped out of the "Bill Lab" (whatever that is) and just saw this.

I could have probably figured out how to get the tubes out of their PVC prisons intact if I'd truly wanted to.  Getting them back *in* without obvious signs of tampering would have been next to impossible, if not impossible altogether.  But a few salient points for clarification:

1) This was a challenge between me and you. For fun....and education. Beyond that, there were some observers on the sidelines that were above all (I think) hoping to see a train wreck.    This was not some rigorous, peer-reviewed, bulletproof scientific statement intended for publication in the next AES paper.
2) You won, I lost. Had I opened up the PVC casings to see what tube was what, the end result would obviously have been the opposite.
3) You put a huge amount of thought, time and work into preparing those tubes.  I put a lot of time into the listening portion, and for those that have never done something like this, try it sometime. It's not as easy as it might appear. Opening up the PVC tubes would have been (at minimum) extremely disrespectful of your time and effort.  It comes down to a thing called integrity, which may be in short supply elsewhere...but wasn't here.
4) It's no fun and certainly not rewarding (at least for me) to win a game by cheating. 
5) Most importantly, this was a challenge to see if I could pick out a GE manufactured tube -- blindly -- from a number of others. There was no statement by me or you on the sonic quality of any particular tube in the challenge. Yes, I stated which ones I *personally* preferred out of the group which is proof positive of one thing only: I have preferences....as does everyone else.

I can't tell if @attmci was joking or not. If he was, I'm LOL.      If not, I'll post back when I care.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 17, 2020)

Meanwhile in Bill's Lab, @bcowen  's diabolical plan to become a human vacuum tube reaches its final conclusion...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  I stepped out of the "Bill Lab" (whatever that is) and just saw this.
> 
> I could have probably figured out how to get the tubes out of their PVC prisons intact if I'd truly wanted to.  Getting them back *in* without obvious signs of tampering would have been next to impossible, if not impossible altogether.  But a few salient points for clarification:
> 
> ...


When Jason at Schiit saw some of the same tubes in PVC he was surprised by the amount of work involved. I also ended up buying a lot of tubes in hopes of finding the best sounding GE. There was also a lot of money spent on trying to find a couple tubes that sounded similar to the GE but in the end it came down to one. Included in that group was a Sylvania Bad Boy, a Ken Rad black glass VT 231, RCA grey glass, Tung Sol mouse ears, a 1954 Foton and probably a Melz 1578. Many of those tubes have since been donated to others. All told I probably spent $1,000 and a few weekends of my time for a fun experiment. 

I no longer mount tubes in PVC but none were harmed in the process. Current blind comparisons are done with a large metal cover that can include other shapes of 6sn7 equivalents including single triode versions. Even things like the Psvane would not have worked because of their shape. 

 Bill is a class act and it was his idea for the wager. If someone says I can hear this or that, my reaction is great, show me!  And Bill correctly identified many of the tubes that were concealed. No one else has come close.

That being said, different amps can make a big difference IMHO, I design amps to my liking and certain tubes appeal to me more than others. Headphones and DAC's are another factor. In your own setup you will have favorite tubes that have very little to do with anything I might like.


----------



## attmci (Oct 17, 2020)

Deleted.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  I stepped out of the "Bill Lab" (whatever that is) and just saw this.
> 
> I could have probably figured out how to get the tubes out of their PVC prisons intact if I'd truly wanted to.  Getting them back *in* without obvious signs of tampering would have been next to impossible, if not impossible altogether.  But a few salient points for clarification:
> 
> ...


Ahh yes .. that was a lot of fun. .nearly burned my eyebrows off.. 😂


----------



## JKDJedi

56' Foton baking in well... 🙂


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> 56' Foton baking in well... 🙂


Did you buy that off EBay or did @bcowen help out?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 25, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Did you buy that off EBay or did @bcowen help out?


He did. 😎 (I think) 🤔
He sent me a 57' ( very nice Foton )
Found this one off eBay. 😁
I did a @bcowen and just did a reflow of the pins. Dirty "flow" Dancing? 😂 Anyways, it improved by 15% in transconductance.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> He did. 😎 (I think) 🤔


Lol good, he knows enough to re-solder the pins, I believe.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Lol good, he knows enough to re-solder the pins, I believe.


Reedited the post 😒


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Reedited the post 😒


Reflowing should buy some time.

Bill should get the 58 Melz soon, then Sam or Ripper but it should get to you later. I own a lot of Melz 1578’s but the solid plate has some differences IMHO.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 56' Foton baking in well... 🙂



The '56's with ribbed plates aren't easy to find anymore. '56 had to be the year the plates were changed from ribbed to smooth -- I have '56's with both types of plates, but everything I've seen that is '55 and earlier has the ribbed plates and everything '57 and later has the smooth plates. Honestly I can't tell much difference in any of the ribbed plates ('51 - '56), and I can't tell any difference between the (late) '56 through 1959 smooth plates.  Things went to hell in a handbasket in 1960 though, as the 4 different 60's years I have convey that solid-statey sound with a bleached out midrange (to my ears anyway).  Not that they're horrible tubes, just a letdown from the '50's versions.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The '56's with ribbed plates aren't easy to find anymore. '56 had to be the year the plates were changed from ribbed to smooth -- I have '56's with both types of plates, but everything I've seen that is '55 and earlier has the ribbed plates and everything '57 and later has the smooth plates. Honestly I can't tell much difference in any of the ribbed plates ('51 - '56), and I can't tell any difference between the (late) '56 through 1959 smooth plates.  Things went to hell in a handbasket in 1960 though, as the 4 different 60's years I have convey that solid-statey sound with a bleached out midrange (to my ears anyway).  Not that they're horrible tubes, just a letdown from the '50's versions.


I tended to include a lot of the 58 Fotons with my Incubus amps, they seemed to be fairly plentiful compared to some of the other years and once the solder was replaced the balance was quite good.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I tended to include a lot of the 58 Fotons with my Incubus amps, they seemed to be fairly plentiful compared to some of the other years and once the solder was replaced the balance was quite good.


There is a bunch out there.. I just realized I have 4 58' 1 57' and 1 56'.. oh oh .. the @bcowen effect is wearing on me...only 994 more fotons to go! 😂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> There is a bunch out there.. I just realized I have 4 58' 1 57' and 1 56'.. oh oh .. the @bcowen effect is wearing on me...only 994 more fotons to go! 😂



That's 994 more of each year of manufacture, right?  No such thing as too many backups.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's 994 more of each year of manufacture, right?  No such thing as too many backups.


I have plenty even with sending 30 or so out. They are a great value and sound fine with say a Lyr 3 but average with my current setup. YMMV


----------



## Paladin79

Ok @bcowen has the 58 Melz in his possession and is threatening to torture the poor tube with Marilyn Manson. What Sam and Jedi will receive may be a timid and frightened tube with no will to live but we shall see.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Ok @bcowen has the 58 Melz in his possession and is threatening to torture the poor tube with Marilyn Manson. What Sam and Jedi will receive may be a timid and frightened tube with no will to live but we shall see.


Thanks for including me in the tour. I'll revive it with some Bob Marley. 😁


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks for including me in the tour. I'll revive it with some Bob Marley. 😁


Marley could help! Maybe some spiced rum and one of those hand rolled party refreshments that is still not legal in Indiana. Bill is probably offering the poor thing wine from a box. Oh and Ripper is in the group too, but he knows jazz so that is pretty safe.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Marley could help! Maybe some spiced rum and one of those hand rolled party refreshments that is still not legal in Indiana. Bill is probably offering the poor thing wine from a box.


😂😂


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok @bcowen has the 58 Melz in his possession and is threatening to torture the poor tube with Marilyn Manson. What Sam and Jedi will receive may be a timid and frightened tube with no will to live but we shall see.



Semantics.  It will just be well broken-in.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Marley could help! Maybe some spiced rum and one of those hand rolled party refreshments that is still not legal in Indiana. Bill is probably offering the poor thing wine from a box. Oh and Ripper is in the group too, but he knows jazz so that is pretty safe.



If @Ripper2860 plans on torturing the Melz with jazz, I'm *not* sending it to him directly.  As a card carrying member of PET*T* (that's ethical treatment of *T*ubes, not to be confused with fondling), I took an oath to never do harm.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Semantics.  It will just be well broken-in.


Just try not to slather it with bar-b-cue sauce. 

Seriously though, a track I love to test tubes with is Larry Carlton's Sunrise.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If @Ripper2860 plans on torturing the Melz with jazz, I'm *not* sending it to him directly.  As a card carrying member of PET*T* (that's ethical treatment of *T*ubes, not to be confused with fondling), I took an oath to never do harm.


I may have to look at a map, I am trying for a slow westward migration for the tube. Texas is still in the Union right or was the wall built on its norther edge?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may have to look at a map, I am trying for a slow westward migration for the tube. Texas is still in the Union right or was the wall built on its norther edge?



LOL!  As far as I know it's still just northern Mexico.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  As far as I know it's still just northern Mexico.


Anyway hopefully you will comment on the 58 one day soon and agree it is a wonderful tube and my taste is impeccable and how you should listen to me more often, etc.

Another interesting test song is a Daft Punk medley from Pentatonix from their PTX album.


----------



## bcowen (Oct 26, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Anyway hopefully you will *(1)* comment on the 58 one day soon and *(2) *agree it is a wonderful tube and *(3) *my taste is impeccable and *(4)* how you should listen to me more often, etc.



Well, to answer in order:
*1)* Affirmative
*2) *Quite possible based on early impressions
*3)* & *4)* Anything is possible however unlikely it might first appear


----------



## DougD

Paladin79 said:


> Ok @bcowen has the 58 Melz in his possession and is threatening to torture the poor tube with Marilyn Manson. What Sam and Jedi will receive may be a timid and frightened tube with no will to live but we shall see.


Nothing that a strong dose of North Carolina's other favorite, S.C.O.T.S., can't cure. Restore the tube's will to live with Voodoo Cadillac, raise it to a higher plane with Soul City, and blow it's freeky little glass head into euphorialand with Greenback Fly and Skullbucket. That's how you burn in a tube to make it inspirational for the rest of its life!!! (For those in Texas and fans of brisket ... well, just do exactly the same thing, don't try to fiddle with the recipe.)


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> Seriously though, a track I love to test tubes with is Larry Carlton's Sunrise.



From 'The Paris Concert' album?


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 26, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> From 'The Paris Concert' album?


Fire Wire I believe. But it is on both albums I would think, I was listening to Fire Wire.


----------



## G0rt

Paladin79 said:


> Fire Wire I believe.



Nope. But I do like Dirty Donna's House Party from that one.


----------



## Paladin79

G0rt said:


> Nope. But I do like Dirty Donna's House Party from that one.


Song number 9 on the album Fire Wire, Sunrise. 😉


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Fire Wire I believe.


----------



## G0rt

Paladin79 said:


> Song number 9 on the album Fire Wire, Sunrise. 😉



Damn, I'm gotta re-rip that. Mine skips from The Prince to Mean Street. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## maxemil

bcowen said:


> The '56's with ribbed plates aren't easy to find anymore. '56 had to be the year the plates were changed from ribbed to smooth -- I have '56's with both types of plates, but everything I've seen that is '55 and earlier has the ribbed plates and everything '57 and later has the smooth plates. Honestly I can't tell much difference in any of the ribbed plates ('51 - '56), and I can't tell any difference between the (late) '56 through 1959 smooth plates.  Things went to hell in a handbasket in 1960 though, as the 4 different 60's years I have convey that solid-statey sound with a bleached out midrange (to my ears anyway).  Not that they're horrible tubes, just a letdown from the '50's versions.


Could someone please post a picture of the ribbed vs. smooth plates? I have a hard time what exactly to look for at my '51 and '56. 
Thanks a lot.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 27, 2020)

maxemil said:


> Could someone please post a picture of the ribbed vs. smooth plates? I have a hard time what exactly to look for at my '51 and '56.
> Thanks a lot.




Smooth on left, ribbed on right.

This is not a bad buy on some 1979 Melz, 

https://www.etsy.com/listing/833761...f=sr_gallery-1-4&organic_search_click=1&frs=1

From the 19th century no less.    Perforated plate and all the proper characteristics.


----------



## maxemil

Paladin79 said:


> Smooth on left, ribbed on right.


Great. Thanks. 
A picture is worth...


----------



## bcowen (Oct 27, 2020)

maxemil said:


> Could someone please post a picture of the ribbed vs. smooth plates? I have a hard time what exactly to look for at my '51 and '56.
> Thanks a lot.



Below an early '56.  The "ribs" are the small ridges at the arrows:




Below a pic just swiped off Ebay, but shows how the plates have a smooth surface from top to bottom: If these photos are lacking at showing adequate detail, perhaps @JKDJedi can help -- his photography skills leave mine in the dust. 





Edit:  looks like @Paladin79 beat me to it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.etsy.com/listing/833761...f=sr_gallery-1-4&organic_search_click=1&frs=1
> 
> From the 19th century no less.



ROFL!   Considering the huge money some people will pay for 1930's and 1940's tubes, that's an exceptional price for tubes made in the 1800's.  Too bad there's only one lot left...


----------



## Ripper2860

1800s, huh?  That explains the 500 service hours.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 27, 2020)

Plates on the 56 Melz, shiny black plates with two ribs instead of the three on Fotons. The perforated plate 1578 has the same two ribs and black plates.


----------



## Paladin79

G0rt said:


> Damn, I'm gotta re-rip that. Mine skips from The Prince to Mean Street. Thanks for the tip!


I should mention I have 40,000 albums on a 2tb drive, the jazz section is divided into modern and classic so I can pull up the artists pretty easily. All albums and songs are in order.


----------



## maxemil

bcowen said:


> Below an early '56.  The "ribs" are the small ridges at the arrows:
> 
> 
> Below a pic just swiped off Ebay, but shows how the plates have a smooth surface from top to bottom: If these photos are lacking at showing adequate detail, perhaps @JKDJedi can help -- his photography skills leave mine in the dust.
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## maxemil (Oct 27, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Plates on the 56 Melz, shiny black plates with two ribs instead of the three on Fotons. The perforated plate 1578 has the same two ribs and black plates.
> Apparently Foton has switched from ribbed to smooth areound the same time: attached see a picture of my Fotons from 1957.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Below an early '56.  The "ribs" are the small ridges at the arrows:
> 
> 
> Below a pic just swiped off Ebay, but shows how the plates have a smooth surface from top to bottom: If these photos are lacking at showing adequate detail, perhaps @JKDJedi can help -- his photography skills leave mine in the dust.
> ...


For the monies, don't know of a better bargain than wat these are going for. And straight from the motherland.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> For the monies, don't know of a better bargain than wat these are going for. And straight from the motherland.


Indeed they are a great buy.

There are some 50's versions on ebay for about $20 with shipping so they are still around. I have no need to buy any more myself. I am concentrating on other Russian tubes right now.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Indeed they are a great buy.
> 
> There are some 50's versions on ebay for about $20 with shipping so they are still around. I have no need to buy any more myself. I am concentrating on other Russian tubes right now.


Grab a few from them yesterday. Probably last pair. #maybe


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Grab a few from them yesterday. Probably last pair. #maybe



There was a pair of ribbed plate '56's that popped up this morning for $10 + $12 shipping that for some incomprehensible reason I just couldn't resist.  I _need_ more Fotons about as much as a recovering alcoholic _needs_ a shot of liquor, but at least there are some parallels between the addictions.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There was a pair of ribbed plate '56's that popped up this morning for $10 + $12 shipping that for some incomprehensible reason I just couldn't resist.  I _need_ more Fotons about as much as a recovering alcoholic _needs_ a shot of liquor, but at least there are some parallels between the addictions.


You are hopeless.😀
I am not sure I mentioned what I paid for the unusual Melz, I am curious how you would value it?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 27, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> You are hopeless.😀
> I am not sure I mentioned what I paid for the unusual Melz, I am curious how you would value it?


Don't say, it will ruin the experiment.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> There was a pair of ribbed plate '56's that popped up this morning for $10 + $12 shipping that for some incomprehensible reason I just couldn't resist.  I _need_ more Fotons about as much as a recovering alcoholic _needs_ a shot of liquor, but at least there are some parallels between the addictions.


I was only 2 closer to your 1000 ( not really but)...what da!?.. 😂


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are hopeless.😀
> I am not sure I mentioned what I paid for the unusual Melz, I am curious how you would value it?



I'll refrain from commenting on the sonics until everyone on the list has a chance to hear it (and I'm still evaluating it myself).  But I will say at this point I'd value it higher than $5 plus shipping.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was only 2 closer to your 1000 ( not really but)...what da!?.. 😂



There's still some '58's on Ebay if you want to close the gap again (for now).


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 27, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I'll refrain from commenting on the sonics until everyone on the list has a chance to hear it (and I'm still evaluating it myself).  But I will say at this point I'd value it higher than $5 plus shipping.  LOL!


I have identical tubes being examined, but I will hold off disclosing details since you guys need to try it. $5 indeed lol!


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> I _need_ more Fotons about as much as a recovering alcoholic _needs_ a shot of liquor...



Difference between an alcoholic and a drinker; an alcoholic goes to meetings.

No meetings, no problem.


----------



## attmci (Oct 31, 2020)

No wonder you guys love R tubes now. The price of the nicer tubes are ridiculous high.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Mullard-ECC35-CV569-6SL7GT-first-version-RARE-Pan-Getters-NOS-/264785203425?hash=item3da66d90e1:g:wFUAAOSwQyBfAIBD&nma=true&si=nB%2FzJR9YuZ9Zz016ujo6gUxrSSY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mullard-EC...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## SHIMACM

Too bad it doesn't ship to Brazil. Look at that bargain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383797839417?ul_noapp=true


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> No wonder you guys love R tubes now. The price of the nicer tubes are ridiculous high.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-Mullard-ECC35-CV569-6SL7GT-first-version-RARE-Pan-Getters-NOS-/264785203425?hash=item3da66d90e1:g:wFUAAOSwQyBfAIBD&nma=true&si=nB%2FzJR9YuZ9Zz016ujo6gUxrSSY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> ...



Very true.
@Ripper2860 now has a sample Russian tube I like and Jedi and Sam6550a will receive it eventually along with a couple other folks who wanted to hear it. One has to do a lot of listening to find the right years and types that are the most enjoyable. It also helps to be able to re-solder the pins.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Too bad it doesn't ship to Brazil. Look at that bargain.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/383797839417?ul_noapp=true


well crap... that was a steal


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Very true.
> @Ripper2860 now has a sample Russian tube I like and Jedi and Sam6550a will receive it eventually along with a couple other folks who wanted to hear it. One has to do a lot of listening to find the right years and types that are the most enjoyable. It also helps to be able to re-solder the pins.


I'm a new fan to Melz (1578) tubes and am enjoying them more than I thought I'd be. The exotic build matches the output.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> well crap... that was a steal


It certainly was.😎


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> It certainly was.😎


😂😂😂 had a feeling... 🙃


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂 had a feeling... 🙃


Just helping out my local group in case this one tests higher than others we have.  It is a tube that has made our final cut of 52 for blind testing.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂 had a feeling... 🙃


That brimar sold within half hour of @SHIMACM  posting that link.   Was definitely a bargain...


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> That brimar sold within half hour of @SHIMACM  posting that link.   Was definitely a bargain...


I was surprised it was still there. The time change (and other events, has me getting up early. I needed to jump in before @bcowen saw it.😜


----------



## bcowen

This has to be a new world record. 10 calendar days shipment to delivery from the Ukraine. As a plus, both tubes test dead-on NOS values with perfectly matched triodes (and military stamps to boot -- both are '56's).  Not bad for $10.  And while not Brimars quite obviously, I can't let @Paladin79 have gloating dibs totally unchallenged.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was surprised it was still there. The time change (and other events, has me getting up early. I needed to jump in before @bcowen saw it.😜



Grrrrr......denied because of a Chamber of Commerce meeting, otherwise it would have been mine. I don't even like (most) Brimars.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Grrrrr......denied because of a Chamber of Commerce meeting, otherwise it would have been mine. I don't even like (most) Brimars.


Lol I am not a huge fan but the price was right. As far as Foton’s why????  I would rather have a Futon instead of a Foton.

Oh and I am listening to three VR-102’s (BL63’s), they are different and musical.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> As far as Foton’s why????



Why _not_????



Paladin79 said:


> I would rather have a Futon instead of a Foton.



For naps?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Why _not_????
> 
> 
> 
> For naps?



Having extra Fotons is like getting a bonus track on a Yoko Ono album.😉


----------



## cgb3

Paladin79 said:


> Having extra Fotons is like getting a bonus track on a Yoko Ono album.😉


I don't know that I agree with the premise, but that is one well turned phrase!

It's mine now. The problem; so very few know who Yoko Ono is these days. I suppose that's a good thing, but it does make one feel old.


----------



## bcowen

cgb3 said:


> I don't know that I agree with the premise, but that is one well turned phrase!
> 
> It's mine now. The problem; so very few know who Yoko Ono is these days. I suppose that's a good thing, but it does make one feel old.



LOL!  He's obviously pulled out his Yoko, Shaun Cassidy, Jackson 5, Leif Garrett, and Captain & Tenille collection. Most would be boxing them up to donate dump at a local flea market, but Tom is laying on his futon and listening with a satisfied smile...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  He's obviously pulled out his Yoko, Shaun Cassidy, Jackson 5, Leif Garrett, and Captain & Tenille collection. Most would be boxing them up to donate dump at a local flea market, but Tom is laying on his futon and listening with a satisfied smile...


Lol


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  He's obviously pulled out his Yoko, Shaun Cassidy, Jackson 5, Leif Garrett, and Captain & Tenille collection. Most would be boxing them up to donate dump at a local flea market, but Tom is laying on his futon and listening with a satisfied smile...


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "Paladin79, postagem: 15960865, membro: 452938"]
I was surprised it was still there. The time change (and other events, has me getting up early. I needed to jump in before @bcowen saw it.😜
[/QUOTE]

The best offers make it very difficult to ship internationally. So the way and share with friends.


----------



## Paladin79

cgb3 said:


> I don't know that I agree with the premise, but that is one well turned phrase!
> 
> It's mine now. The problem; so very few know who Yoko Ono is these days. I suppose that's a good thing, but it does make one feel old.


I was kidding about the Fotons, they are probably the best priced tube out there unless you can catch some of the 56-58 solid plate Melz for a reasonable price but few know about them yet and they are not very common.


----------



## shafat777

Ive been using my Feliks Audio elise for about a month now. So far, this amp rocks. However i think its time for me to dive head first in the world of tube rolling. For starters I have a pair of 6as7g RCA black plate power tubes. Driver tubes, for now, are PSVane cv-181 T mk2. This combo is decent as it gives me plenty of bass while maintaining a good balance of mids and highs. However, the bass is boomy and not very controlled and not very punchy, which in returned casts a veil over the mids and vocals. 

Can anyone plz recommend me some 6sn7 tube or variants that will play well with my RCA 6as7gs. The PS vane is good but i want to bring out the best out of my Elise. 

I mostly use my ZMF VC and Auteur with my Elise. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## JKDJedi

shafat777 said:


> Ive been using my Feliks Audio elise for about a month now. So far, this amp rocks. However i think its time for me to dive head first in the world of tube rolling. For starters I have a pair of 6as7g RCA black plate power tubes. Driver tubes, for now, are PSVane cv-181 T mk2. This combo is decent as it gives me plenty of bass while maintaining a good balance of mids and highs. However, the bass is boomy and not very controlled and not very punchy, which in returned casts a veil over the mids and vocals.
> 
> Can anyone plz recommend me some 6sn7 tube or variants that will play well with my RCA 6as7gs. The PS vane is good but i want to bring out the best out of my Elise.
> 
> I mostly use my ZMF VC and Auteur with my Elise. Any help would be appreciated.


You just described something that would best be remedied with changing out them RCA instead of the PSvanes.


----------



## Paladin79

shafat777 said:


> Ive been using my Feliks Audio elise for about a month now. So far, this amp rocks. However i think its time for me to dive head first in the world of tube rolling. For starters I have a pair of 6as7g RCA black plate power tubes. Driver tubes, for now, are PSVane cv-181 T mk2. This combo is decent as it gives me plenty of bass while maintaining a good balance of mids and highs. However, the bass is boomy and not very controlled and not very punchy, which in returned casts a veil over the mids and vocals.
> 
> Can anyone plz recommend me some 6sn7 tube or variants that will play well with my RCA 6as7gs. The PS vane is good but i want to bring out the best out of my Elise.
> 
> I mostly use my ZMF VC and Auteur with my Elise. Any help would be appreciated.


I do not run a Feliks but have heard nothing but good things about the amp. A tube I like with my amps is the 1963 Melz 1578 as far as excellent mids, highs, and and accurate bass. There should be a few more folks on here that can talk about this tube so mine is not the only opinion. I just lost a PSvane Mk-2 yesterday when it was knocked to the floor, still in its original box thanks to my cat Finnegan.    I liked it all right but it was not toward the tops as far as overall accuracy. I run the same RCA 6as7g's on occasion but I prefer Tung Sol 5998's myself. Add those to an Incubus amp along with the Melz tube and Focal Utopias and I am a happy man. I could lend you a couple 63 Melz to try but I do not know you as well as others on here so details would have to be worked out. No offense intended of course.


----------



## shafat777

Would like to enlighten me? What tubes would you recommend me changing to?


----------



## JKDJedi

shafat777 said:


> Would like to enlighten me? What tubes would you recommend me changing to?


Well he did mention the 5998 (and if you can afford them nice headphones, you can afford a pair of 5998)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do not run a Feliks but have heard nothing but good things about the amp. A tube I like with my amps is the 1963 Melz 1578 as far as excellent mids, highs, and and accurate bass. There should be a few more folks on here that can talk about this tube so mine is not the only opinion. I just lost a PSvane Mk-2 yesterday when it was knocked to the floor, still in its original box thanks to my cat Finnegan.    I liked it all right but it was not toward the tops as far as overall accuracy. I run the same RCA 6as7g's on occasion but I prefer Tung Sol 5998's myself. Add those to an Incubus amp along with the Melz tube and Focal Utopias and I am a happy man. I could lend you a couple 63 Melz to try but I do not know you as well as others on here so details would have to be worked out. No offense intended of course.



I hope Finnegan gave you a time-out for leaving that within his reach.


----------



## bcowen

shafat777 said:


> Would like to enlighten me? What tubes would you recommend me changing to?



Agree completely with @JKDJedi on this.  If you want to keep the RCA's in play, then the Melz that @Paladin79 noted will be a more synergistic match. '50's Foton 6N8S's are also worth considering and on the cheaper side.  I like the PSVane myself, so would probably go with a better power tube mate. The Tung Sol 5998 is a good choice, as are a Chatham 6AS7G or a Tung-Sol or Cetron 7236.  The Russian Svetlana 6N5S / 6N13S can work too, and if you can find some '50's manufacture all the better.


----------



## shafat777

Thanks for the reply. I was under the impression that my RCA 6as7gs would be better than my stock psvane 6n13s. I still have those. I ll look into the Svetlanas. The tung sol and chatam seems to be rare and expensive but i ll keep an eye out for those as well.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 8, 2020)

shafat777 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I was under the impression that my RCA 6as7gs would be better than my stock psvane 6n13s. I still have those. I ll look into the Svetlanas. The tung sol and chatam seems to be rare and expensive but i ll keep an eye out for those as well.



Are you sure the stock tubes aren't 6N13P's?  Those would be Shuguang, not PSVane as they don't (currently) make a 6N13P.  And if the stock tubes are truly Shuguang 6N13P's, the Russian 6N13S will have an entirely different (and better, IMO) sound especially when paired with the PSVane CV181-T II.


----------



## shafat777

Accordingn to the Elise manual, the stock power tubes are 6N13S. The marking on the tube says "6H13C"


----------



## bcowen

shafat777 said:


> Accordingn to the Elise manual, the stock power tubes are 6N13S. The marking on the tube says "6H13C"



OK, that would be a Russian Svetlana then.  Might want to give those another listen with the CV181's in play and see what you think.  Be sure to give them some break-in time (if you haven't already) as the sound will change over the first 20 hours or so.


----------



## Paladin79

shafat777 said:


> Accordingn to the Elise manual, the stock power tubes are 6N13S. The marking on the tube says "6H13C"


http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_alphabet.php

That is just the difference between alphabets. I generally include the Svetlana flying C in my amps.

The thing is, I have always found greater differences in driver tubes than power tubes but that can be very amp dependent so my mind first goes to driver tubes.


----------



## shafat777

bcowen said:


> OK, that would be a Russian Svetlana then.  Might want to give those another listen with the CV181's in play and see what you think.  Be sure to give them some break-in time (if you haven't already) as the sound will change over the first 20 hours or so.



Thanks for that. I have actually never heard my stock russian power tubes with cv 181s. I upgraded the powers first. and then the drivers. 

With that being said, you seem very knowledgeable in these tubes. I will keep searching 5998s but with my present tubes, which drivers tubes should i invest in? I heard sylvania 6sn7gtb are excellent, as well as rca vt-231are also great. Any tips?


----------



## bcowen

shafat777 said:


> Thanks for that. I have actually never heard my stock russian power tubes with cv 181s. I upgraded the powers first. and then the drivers.
> 
> With that being said, you seem very knowledgeable in these tubes. I will keep searching 5998s but with my present tubes, which drivers tubes should i invest in? I heard sylvania 6sn7gtb are excellent, as well as rca vt-231are also great. Any tips?



In addition to the driver tubes mentioned previously, a Sylvania Bad Boy 6SN7 might work nicely, as well as 40's or 50's Raytheons (6SN7 / VT-231).  An RCA VT-231 / 6SN7 wouldn't be my choice -- while they can be quite excellent with the right power tube, they aren't going to be the best match with the RCA 6AS7's.  In order to improve on the bass issues you mention, you need a driver tube that is fast, articulate, and fairly neutral in the bass. The Melz and Fotons score nicely in that area, IMO.


----------



## shafat777

Okay, i am looking a pair of Raytheon vt-231 on ebay and i think i might give those a shot. In the mean time, i m gonna try my svetlanas with my cv-181s and report back. I didnt pay much for the rca 6as7gs, so if i have to replace those, it wont be too bad. I just want something that will make my elise sing in harmony with my VC and Auteur.


----------



## MasonStorm

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I am not a huge fan but the price was right. As far as Foton’s why????  I would rather have a Futon instead of a Foton.
> 
> Oh and I am listening to three VR-102’s (BL63’s), they are different and musical.



Yikes!  Please be sure your amp is up to the task posed by VR-102's.  Please see http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0300.htm (at the bottom of the page).  *A VR-102 draws a heater current of 1.3A,  literally more than double the 0.6A of a 6SN7.*  People around here quite correctly warn each other about rolling in an ECC32, with its 0.9A draw.  A VR-102 is much worse than that!


----------



## bcowen

MasonStorm said:


> Yikes!  Please be sure your amp is up to the task posed by VR-102's.  Please see http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0300.htm (at the bottom of the page).  *A VR-102 draws a heater current of 1.3A,  literally more than double the 0.6A of a 6SN7.*  People around here quite correctly warn each other about rolling in an ECC32, with its 0.9A draw.  A VR-102 is much worse than that!



Since he built the amp, I'm pretty confident he knows what he's doing.  

With tubes and amps, I mean.  As far as some other stuff, well, that's different.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Since he built the amp, I'm pretty confident he knows what he's doing.
> 
> With tubes and amps, I mean.  As far as some other stuff, well, that's different.


this


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 8, 2020)

MasonStorm said:


> Yikes!  Please be sure your amp is up to the task posed by VR-102's.  Please see http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0300.htm (at the bottom of the page).  *A VR-102 draws a heater current of 1.3A,  literally more than double the 0.6A of a 6SN7.*  People around here quite correctly warn each other about rolling in an ECC32, with its 0.9A draw.  A VR-102 is much worse than that!


I designed my amp and have a pretty good understanding of the heater current limits. 1.3 amps plus 2.4-2.5 amps are still within said limits. I am also in the unusual situation that if I ever damaged it, I probably only have enough parts to build ten more unless I had to buy more transformers.  

Your warning is great for those who might not know their amps capabilities. I gifted one to @bcowen knowing full well he might try some strange tubes but if he destroys the filament windings in the power transformer, he then owns a 2 lb door stop.

Oops I was answering while others were answering as well. Somehow Mr. Cowen was channeling my response.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I designed my amp and have a pretty good understanding of the heater current limits. 1.3 amps plus 2.4-2.5 amps are still within said limits. I am also in the unusual situation that if I ever damaged it, I probably only have enough parts to build ten more unless I had to buy more transformers.
> 
> Your warning is great for those who might not know their amps capabilities. I gifted one to @bcowen knowing full well he might try some strange tubes but if he destroys the filament windings in the power transformer, he then owns a 2 lb door stop.
> 
> Oops I was answering while others were answering as well. Somehow Mr. Cowen was channeling my response.



Awwwww.....man.  I only had 2 wires left to solder in for my homemade 6080 -> dual 845 adapter.  And now you're raining on my parade.  Fine.  I'll try it in the Darkvoice first.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Awwwww.....man.  I only had 2 wires left to solder in for my homemade 6080 -> dual 845 adapter.  And now you're raining on my parade.  Fine.  I'll try it in the Darkvoice first.


Friends and I are involved in a wager where I have to build a class A speaker amp using some very strange tubes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GU-50-OTK-...381724?hash=item3b4c7dc69c:g:FokAAOSwroxfNR8L

Unique tube holders, unique sockets and as far as I know there are no substitutions out there. The amp may be Cowen proof by the time I am done.


----------



## Ripper2860

Riiiiight.  As if anything could ever truly be 'Cowen-Proof'.


----------



## LoryWiv (Nov 8, 2020)

shafat777 said:


> Okay, i am looking a pair of Raytheon vt-231 on ebay and i think i might give those a shot. In the mean time, i m gonna try my svetlanas with my cv-181s and report back. I didnt pay much for the rca 6as7gs, so if i have to replace those, it wont be too bad. I just want something that will make my elise sing in harmony with my VC and Auteur.


Hi @shafat777. I also tried RCA 6AS7G in Elise and found them a bit bloomy (sloppy bass to be blunt). I agree with others it may be best to try different powers before rolling drivers too extensively, and the stock Elise powers are just OK IMO. Best options I've found as powers are GEC 6080 (installed in photo below) aand new production Genalex Gold Lion KT88's run with adapters from @Deyan. With either of those as powers, I've had good results with various drivers including Brimar 6SN7GT and adapter-requiring alternatives. I also used the new production Tung Sol 6SN7GT for quite a while and while it is warm leaning the bass is decently controlled. It is an amazing value and good all arounder, and as a new production tube doesn't require the "hunt" (admittedly that can be part of the fun though).   Good luck!


----------



## Tom-s

Paladin79 said:


> Unique tube holders, unique sockets and as far as I know there are no substitutions out there. The amp may be Cowen proof by the time I am done.



That's only until someone notes the GU50 is based on a Telefunken LS50 that is close to the family of FL152 ->  EL152, EL153 and EL156.
Here's a sample from that family in my collection.


----------



## Paladin79

Tom-s said:


> That's only until someone notes the GU50 is based on a Telefunken LS50 that is close to the family of FL152 ->  EL152, EL153 and EL156.
> Here's a sample from that family in my collection.



I had heard of them but right now I am limited on what I can use. Down the road I will search for some.


----------



## Paladin79

This tube arrived today, I will have to try various power tubes. Mids and highs are quite good but the jury is out on the bass so far.


----------



## Mr Trev

Philips black glass? Anyone?
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/NOS-Philips...ss-1950s-New-in-Box-1-No-Reserve/274566191298


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This tube arrived today, I will have to try various power tubes. Mids and highs are quite good but the jury is out on the bass so far.



Sweet!

I finally got off my butt and wired one of these up today.  Melz certainly didn't make it easy.  In the Mullard CV3986 I did a while back, there was a distinctive gap between pin 1 and pin 9 for identifying the leads. No such gap in the Melz -- all 8 leads are equidistant around the bottom, and there's no notch, bump, or marking in the glass to identify pin 1 or 8.  Fortunately the cathode, grid, and anode leads for each triode are mirror images of each other, so once identifying the heater leads the rest was pretty easy to guess...and I was lucky enough to get it right the first time (at least as indicated by the Hickok).  Have it burning in for a bit now, and looking forward to see if it holds a candle to the (much) pricier 1578's and 6N8S's.


----------



## bcowen

Looks rather un-elegant in the Elegant Incubus, but it doesn't sound that way.  On first listen it was pretty raw (and fatiguing). After about 4 hours of play, the top end has smoothed out quite nicely and has nice detail without fatigue. Great bass thump, but lacking fullness and bloom in the mids.  Enough promise though to keep it going and see what develops after it gets 20-25 hours on it. If it's a typical Russkie that will make a substantial difference.


----------



## Mr Trev

I could make some crass, frat-boy jokes right about now…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I could make some crass, frat-boy jokes right about now…



That's @Ripper2860 's job.  Just a public service announcement to preclude development of a frat-boy fight here.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Looks rather un-elegant in the Elegant Incubus, but it doesn't sound that way.  On first listen it was pretty raw (and fatiguing). After about 4 hours of play, the top end has smoothed out quite nicely and has nice detail without fatigue. Great bass thump, but lacking fullness and bloom in the mids.  Enough promise though to keep it going and see what develops after it gets 20-25 hours on it. If it's a typical Russkie that will make a substantial difference.



I may need to write an owners manual just for you!! The Incubus is probably embarrassed to be seen with that tube.😀


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may need to write an owners manual just for you!! The Incubus is probably embarrassed to be seen with that tube.😀



Huh?  I thought the Incubus was made for Russian Melz tubes.  You mean I can use other brands?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Huh?  I thought the Incubus was made for Russian Melz tubes.  You mean I can use other brands?


It runs normal Russian tubes just fine, stop going with abnormal!!!!   Geesh, building an amp should be easy but there is the human factor you have to contend with.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> That's @Ripper2860 's job.  Just a public service announcement to preclude development of a frat-boy fight here.



Frat boy?  You are giving me far too much credit.  Everyone knows my jokes skew towards a younger crowd.


----------



## Paladin79

Tom-s said:


> That's only until someone notes the GU50 is based on a Telefunken LS50 that is close to the family of FL152 ->  EL152, EL153 and EL156.
> Here's a sample from that family in my collection.


Do you actually use any of the Telefunken LS50's yourself?  Do you have a pair you would like to sell?
If it helps, I am a Tom S. myself.


----------



## Paladin79

The solid plate Melz 1578 look alike should be on its way to @JKDJedi now, and then on the way to sam6550a. I am listening to one myself this morning along with various power tubes. Before long it will be possible to post opinions on said tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> The solid plate Melz 1578 look alike should be on its way to @JKDJedi now, and then on the way to sam6550a. I am listening to one myself this morning along with various power tubes. Before long it will be possible to post opinions on said tube.


stoked .. 😎


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 15, 2020)

The 63 Melz 1578 is a great tube for comparison unless you happen to have a 1958 perforated plate. 

Last I looked some of the 1578's are going for higher prices, I saw one at $186. People list them as hard to find yet I tend to see plenty on Ebay.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Looks rather un-elegant in the Elegant Incubus, but it doesn't sound that way.  On first listen it was pretty raw (and fatiguing). After about 4 hours of play, the top end has smoothed out quite nicely and has nice detail without fatigue. Great bass thump, but lacking fullness and bloom in the mids.  Enough promise though to keep it going and see what develops after it gets 20-25 hours on it. If it's a typical Russkie that will make a substantial difference.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity


LOL, well to begin with the transformer cover is not copper, that is a copper looking paint @bcowen used. The copper on the top plate is sealed to maintain that particular patina. 

I would say as long as Mr. Cowen does not grind through the top finish and start licking the top plate he should be fine.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, well to begin with the transformer cover is not copper, that is a copper looking paint @bcowen used. The copper on the top plate is sealed to maintain that particular patina.
> 
> I would say as long as Mr. Cowen does not grind through the top finish and start licking the top plate he should be fine.



It's actually a paint with copper particles in it so it reacts with the aging solution.  I wondered why I felt weird after doing a couple shots of it.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It's actually a paint with copper particles in it so it reacts with the aging solution.  I wondered why I felt weird after doing a couple shots of it.


Ah I never did ask you too much about that paint. I am pretty careful with copper as well as lead based solder. A couple good reasons besides Covid to wash your hands.


----------



## Mr Trev

Mmmm. Copper and lead: delicious but deadly.

<I promise, one of these days I'll post something other than a smart-ass remark>


----------



## SHIMACM (Nov 16, 2020)

what do you think of this Melz?


----------



## SHIMACM

SHIMACM said:


> what do you think of this Melz?



Or is this one better?


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> Or is this one better?


I would go with the second ones if they are similar in price.

Both have all the indications of a true 1578. The tubes from the 80's have real pronounced midrange while the earlier versions from the  sixties are more well rounded, especially the versions from 58-63 that I own. All of them IMHO need pin solder replacement, just like the Fotons.  The tube year is in the lower right of the Melz logo, I could not make it out on those but I only have time to look quickly this morn.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> I would go with the second ones if they are similar in price.
> 
> Both have all the indications of a true 1578. The tubes from the 80's have real pronounced midrange while the earlier versions from the  sixties are more well rounded, especially the versions from 58-63 that I own. All of them IMHO need pin solder replacement, just like the Fotons.  The tube year is in the lower right of the Melz logo, I could not make it out on those but I only have time to look quickly this morn.



Thanks for the clarification. If I choose Melz, I must buy the second one, confirm Paladin79 indication. As the money is short, I am in huge doubt between the Melz 1578 and a pair of GEC L63, since you can't buy both. Can anyone make a brief comparison of the two?


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> Thanks for the clarification. If I choose Melz, I must buy the second one, confirm Paladin79 indication. As the money is short, I am in huge doubt between the Melz 1578 and a pair of GEC L63, since you can't buy both. Can anyone make a brief comparison of the two?


I believe @bcowen can.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Thanks for the clarification. If I choose Melz, I must buy the second one, confirm Paladin79 indication. As the money is short, I am in huge doubt between the Melz 1578 and a pair of GEC L63, since you can't buy both. Can anyone make a brief comparison of the two?


If your unable to desolder the pins of the Melz 1578 then clearly the GECL63 would be a better buy.


----------



## Slade01 (Nov 16, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> If your unable to desolder the pins of the Melz 1578 then clearly the GECL63 would be a better buy.



@SHIMACM I can only add that if you did go with the GEC L63 approach - you would invest in that dual 6J5 adapter - which will open you up to another, deeper vein in the rabbit hole of tube rolling...


----------



## JKDJedi

Well... as luck would have it..talk about Melz tubes...and look what just dropped in today... 4 weeks in waiting. Not the premium 1578 but a Melz just the same. See how they stack up to the 1578 on hand and especially...to the mystery tube coming in later this week.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Well... as luck would have it..talk about Melz tubes...and look what just dropped in today... 4 weeks in waiting. Not the premium 1578 but a Melz just the same. See how they stack up to the 1578 on hand and especially...to the mystery tube coming in later this week.


Just do not get them mixed up and send @sam6550a one of those. 😬


----------



## kvik

Regarding resoldering pins.. any advice on how this is best done? Received a pair of 1958 Melz, and one is fine I believe, but the other makes loud crackling noises. I am not that experienced with a solder iron, but perhaps with some idea of what to do and not do, I might still give it a go.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Just do not get them mixed up and send @sam6550a one of those. 😬


One unknown in the equation is all I can handle. I would like to hear @JKDJedi's results of his comparison of the "special" Melz to his find.


----------



## sam6550a

kvik said:


> Regarding resoldering pins.. any advice on how this is best done? Received a pair of 1958 Melz, and one is fine I believe, but the other makes loud crackling noises. I am not that experienced with a solder iron, but perhaps with some idea of what to do and not do, I might still give it a go.


@Paladin79 is the expert on this task. I use a Hakko FR-301 desoldering tool, along with a Weller soldering iron, Kester liquid flux, and Kester #66/44 0.031" solder. @Paladin79 posted a procedure summary on this thread a while ago, but I could not locate it. Suggest you contact him.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> One unknown in the equation is all I can handle. I would like to hear @JKDJedi's results of his comparison of the "special" Melz to his find.


I have a pretty good idea since I already own some of those Melz with round micas.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> @Paladin79 is the expert on this task. I use a Hakko FR-301 desoldering tool, along with a Weller soldering iron, Kester liquid flux, and Kester #66/44 0.031" solder. @Paladin79 posted a procedure summary on this thread a while ago, but I could not locate it. Suggest you contact him.


As much as I resist following his advice,  @bcowen suggested not long ago that I should do a Word document with photos showing all the steps. I will try to work on that this week. This would be a very easy solution and save me a lot of typing and hunting for photos. Sam certainly knows what he is doing on this, as does this Cowen fellow.


----------



## Paladin79

kvik said:


> Regarding resoldering pins.. any advice on how this is best done? Received a pair of 1958 Melz, and one is fine I believe, but the other makes loud crackling noises. I am not that experienced with a solder iron, but perhaps with some idea of what to do and not do, I might still give it a go.



You have a very fine year for Melz, got photos? Perforated plate or solid?


----------



## kvik

They are perforated (see below). I found some of your comments in this thread about solder replacement. And realize I need to practice on duds first. Some photos of the process would still be very useful.


----------



## Paladin79

kvik said:


> They are perforated (see below). I found some of your comments in this thread about solder replacement. And realize I need to practice on duds first. Some photos of the process would still be very useful.


Those are indeed excellent tubes. I will go back through my photos and help where I can. I have ‘58’s with both solid and perforated plates, Jedi will hear a solid plate soon.


----------



## JKDJedi

sam6550a said:


> One unknown in the equation is all I can handle. I would like to hear @JKDJedi's results of his comparison of the "special" Melz to his find.


I think we have to wait a few weeks before we all compare notes? We sworn to secrecy? 🙄


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I think we have to wait a few weeks before we all compare notes? We sworn to secrecy? 🙄


It would be nice to post results together, Sam can hear your comments after he has heard the tube if that is all right. Try to keep it for a week only.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I think we have to wait a few weeks before we all compare notes? We sworn to secrecy? 🙄



Yes.  If you spill the beans too early....


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Just do not get them mixed up and send @sam6550a one of those. 😬


lol... I'm wondering if I'm getting another Marconi from @Ripper2860 🤔


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> lol... I'm wondering if I'm getting another Marconi from @Ripper2860 🤔


Shhhh, now @bcowen will want a Marconi too and they are rare!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 17, 2020)

kvik said:


> They are perforated (see below). I found some of your comments in this thread about solder replacement. And realize I need to practice on duds first. Some photos of the process would still be very useful.


Here are a few photos of the process. Once I remove the old solder, I apply liquid flux with a sharp pick, I try to use a heat sink on the back of the pin to keep the solder from flowing too far in, and finally the finished product. I use tiny solder that fits inside the pin easily, it is 2% silver. If you get good at this there is very little clean up, the solder joints should be shiny when you finish soldering. Oh and I only heat the outside of the pin, that way if any solder sticks there, it is accessible and easy to clean off. I use a Panavise and rotate the tube as needed. You need to heat the joint to allow the solder to flow, directly touching solder to the tip tends to burn off the flux in the solder itself.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Here are a few photos of the process. Once I remove the old solder, I apply liquid flux with a sharp pick, I try to use a heat sink on the back of the pin to keep the solder from flowing too far in, and finally the finished product. I use tiny solder that fits inside the pin easily, it is 2% silver. If you get good at this there is very little clean up, the solder joints should be shiny when you finish soldering. Oh and I only heat the outside of the pin, that way if any solder sticks there, it is accessible and easy to clean off. I use a Panavise and rotate the tube as needed. You need to heat the joint to allow the solder to flow, directly touching solder to the tip tends to burn off the flux in the solder itself.


Looks daunting to me. I am in the medical profession and my wife likes to say "You fix people, not things. Leave that to others." I hate to say it but she is probably right (again).


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Looks daunting to me. I am in the medical profession and my wife likes to say "You fix people, not things. Leave that to others." I hate to say it but she is probably right (again).


Once you understand how solder is drawn to heat then it all makes sense, little dab will do ya. You should of seen (at the beginning) what I was using to do this ... you'd think I was gonna weld a frame of a vehicle together . .😂 
still a novice but just a few tubes away from being pretty good at this.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Once you understand how solder is drawn to heat then it all makes sense, little dab will do ya. You should of seen (at the beginning) what I was using to do this ... you'd think I was gonna weld a frame of a vehicle together . .😂
> still a novice but just a few tubes away from being pretty good at this.


Why are you typing, you should be opening your mail box, the tube has been delivered lol.

As far as soldering, LoryWiv might be able to explain capillary action. Here is a brief description I pulled off the net.

*Soldering* and Brazing with *capillary solder* joint fittings is the most common system for joining copper tube. ... Basically, when two metal surfaces are close to one another as copper tube is when coupled into a fitting, liquid metal will be drawn into the gap by "*capillary*" *action*.

This is not quite the same thing but the solder does draw into the pins when done properly.


----------



## SHIMACM

What happens if I don't reseat the pins?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Why are you typing, you should be opening your mail box, the tube has been delivered lol.
> 
> As far as soldering, LoryWiv might be able to explain capillary action. Here is a brief description I pulled off the net.
> 
> ...


At work, trying to look busy .  slow month here, we usually slow down in December, but its 2020... 🙄.  Off tomorrow, (on call) so I'll have most of the day to catch up on some tube rolling. ,😁.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> What happens if I don't reseat the pins?


Reseat?  Do you mean what happens if you just reflow the existing solder and not remove it?  I remove the old solder because it failed in the first place on many Russian tubes. It is 50 to 60 years old in some cases and I trust new solder far more. Also I rarely have to do this with American and British tubes from the same period.


----------



## kvik

@Paladin79 : While it's not totally clear from the pictures, I assume that, along with the heatsink, this previous comment from you about the tube angle still stands?

_"I keep the tube at a slightly downward angle so as not to get too much solder flowing through the pin, capillary action will draw it up into place."_


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> At work, trying to look busy .  slow month here, we usually slow down in December, but its 2020... 🙄.  Off tomorrow, (on call) so I'll have most of the day to catch up on some tube rolling. ,😁.


Oh the work thing lol. It is beer thirty here.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 17, 2020)

kvik said:


> @Paladin79 : While it's not totally clear from the pictures, I assume that, along with the heatsink, this previous comment from you about the tube angle still stands?
> 
> _"I keep the tube at a slightly downward angle so as not to get too much solder flowing through the pin, capillary action will draw it up into place."_


I try to recommend that to others, I have been doing this so long I can have the tube parallel or facing slightly upward but I hate to give that advice.    I tend to err on the side of caution. I do not always use the heat sink but it is a good way to keep the back of the pin cooler so solder is less likely to go that far in. It is not uncommon for me to replace solder in 30-40 tubes at a time. I take more care replacing solder in tubes others own, many are Melz that sell for $120 or so and were I to damage one, I would be obligated to replace it.

If @bcowen ever sends me a truckload of Fotons, I would probably just dunk them in a solder pot and hope for the best.   I would let them cool off before I let Finnegan use them as cat toys, I cannot let him be in the same room when I work with serious tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> What happens if I don't reseat the pins?


 Could get some imbalance, longer burn in time before they really open up (up to 200 hours vs 20 with the resoldered tubes) and possibly failure as @Paladin79 pointed out. And you could get lucky and have no problems at all. Just know that Russian tubes have this Achilles Heel (poor soldering) about them.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

JKDJedi said:


> Well... as luck would have it..talk about Melz tubes...and look what just dropped in today... 4 weeks in waiting. Not the premium 1578 but a Melz just the same. See how they stack up to the 1578 on hand and especially...to the mystery tube coming in later this week.


Were these cheap off of ebay by any chance? I just had 2 similar ones come in today, similar looking and they cost me $5 each + a month of shipping wait time 




These are the first Melz I've owned, is the date code read from the silk screen? Mine say V-55 and VI-56, would that be May 1955 and June 1956?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Could get some imbalance, longer burn in time before they really open up (up to 200 hours vs 20 with the resoldered tubes) and possibly failure as @Paladin79 pointed out. And you could get lucky and have no problems at all. Just know that Russian tubes have this Achilles Heel (poor soldering) about them.


I suspect quality of solder and flux to be the issue. When folks heated Fotons for 200 hours they changed but once retested after they cooled down there were still issues revealed. I replaced the solder in NOS tubes and burn in was fairly standard.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 17, 2020)

tintinsnowydog said:


> Were these cheap off of ebay by any chance? I just had 2 similar ones come in today, similar looking and they cost me $5 each + a month of shipping wait time
> 
> These are the first Melz I've owned, is the date code read from the silk screen? Mine say V-55 and VI-56, would that be May 1955 and June 1956?


Year is in the logo and 55 and 56 are realistic years for those tubes. This is the style tube Jedi is about to hear, if you find any of these, 56-58 with these micas, solid plates, and the metal supports at top, contact me privately and I will most likely make you an offer that is hard to refuse. This is a 1956 as well with all but the perforated plates of a 1578.


----------



## JKDJedi

tintinsnowydog said:


> Were these cheap off of ebay by any chance? I just had 2 similar ones come in today, similar looking and they cost me $5 each + a month of shipping wait time
> 
> These are the first Melz I've owned, is the date code read from the silk screen? Mine say V-55 and VI-56, would that be May 1955 and June 1956?


Mine were not that cheap... 51' not sure if that was the difference in price in those. Wow, $5 for NOS Melz... missed that bid.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Mine were not that cheap... 51' not sure if that was the difference in price in those. Wow, $5 for NOS Melz... missed that bid.


Those look to have had the pins re-soldered, you might want to file down that excess solder on the outside tips of the pins.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

JKDJedi said:


> Mine were not that cheap... 51' not sure if that was the difference in price in those. Wow, $5 for NOS Melz... missed that bid.


They do test NOS, I clicked 'watch' on them as I wasn't well versed in Melz tubes but the seller sent a ridiculously cheap offer.. still not sure if they mistyped it! Would be good to compare listening notes and see if the years are making any difference


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 17, 2020)

tintinsnowydog said:


> They do test NOS, I clicked 'watch' on them as I wasn't well versed in Melz tubes but the seller sent a ridiculously cheap offer.. still not sure if they mistyped it! Would be good to compare listening notes and see if the years are making any difference


Just noticed the construction...dude.. wow... what a find. (wow that's embarrassing.. it was @Paladin79 tubes I was looking at.. see what happens when your on here on your phone looking over your shoulder wondering if the boss is watching... ) 35 minutes to go until I'm FREEEEEEEEEEE!!!!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Just noticed the construction...dude.. wow... what a find. (wow that's embarrassing.. it was @Paladin79 tubes I was looking at.. see what happens when your on here on your phone looking over your shoulder wondering if the boss is watching... ) 35 minutes to go until I'm FREEEEEEEEEEE!!!!


Lol Jedi thought you found the holy grail for $5.00. 😀


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Lol Jedi thought you found the holy grail for $5.00. 😀


🤣😂🤣😂... was beside myself for 5 minutes...


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Why are you typing, you should be opening your mail box, the tube has been delivered lol.
> 
> As far as soldering, LoryWiv might be able to explain capillary action. Here is a brief description I pulled off the net.
> 
> ...


"Capillary action is the ability of a liquid to flow in narrow spaces without the assistance of, or even in opposition to, external forces like gravity." Without it, we'd all have cold fingers and toes. Even with it, I have "cold feet" about soldering, maybe if / when work slows down I'll see if I'm too old a dog to learn new tricks.


----------



## JKDJedi

tintinsnowydog said:


> Were these cheap off of ebay by any chance? I just had 2 similar ones come in today, similar looking and they cost me $5 each + a month of shipping wait time
> 
> These are the first Melz I've owned, is the date code read from the silk screen? Mine say V-55 and VI-56, would that be May 1955 and June 1956?


Just got home and yup same tube as yours, have you had some time with these guys, what's your quick evaluation of them so far?


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> "Capillary action is the ability of a liquid to flow in narrow spaces without the assistance of, or even in opposition to, external forces like gravity." Without it, we'd all have cold fingers and toes. Even with it, I have "cold feet" about soldering, maybe if / when work slows down I'll see if I'm too old a dog to learn new tricks.


I will certainly help if I can. In the meantime I have soldered many tube pins to help those who lack the equipment or desire to do it themselves.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I try to recommend that to others, I have been doing this so long I can have the tube parallel or facing slightly upward but I hate to give that advice.    I tend to err on the side of caution. I do not always use the heat sink but it is a good way to keep the back of the pin cooler so solder is less likely to go that far in. It is not uncommon for me to replace solder in 30-40 tubes at a time. I take more care replacing solder in tubes others own, many are Melz that sell for $120 or so and were I to damage one, I would be obligated to replace it.
> 
> If @bcowen ever sends me a truckload of Fotons, I would probably just dunk them in a solder pot and hope for the best.   I would let them cool off before I let Finnegan use them as cat toys, I cannot let him be in the same room when I work with serious tubes.



I just got some more, so now it's getting close to two truckloads.  You're gonna need a bigger solder pot, and possibly an additional cat.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I just got some more, so now it's getting close to two truckloads.  You're gonna need a bigger solder pot, and possibly an additional cat.


Hell’s ducks man!! Buy some other tubes now and then or maybe hoard something worth hoarding like Barbie dolls or Beanie babys!


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> I will certainly help if I can. In the meantime I have soldered many tube pins to help those who lack the equipment or desire to do it themselves.


You are kind and a gentleman....I may take you up on it at some point when the Melz / Foton itch requires scratching. Right now I have more tubes than time!
Best!


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> You are kind and a gentleman....I may take you up on it at some point when the Melz / Foton itch requires scratching. Right now I have more tubes than time!
> Best!


“Tu-be or not tu-be, that is the question”....


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Nov 18, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Just got home and yup same tube as yours, have you had some time with these guys, what's your quick evaluation of them so far?


Have some things to do but will have some time soon and report back in a few hours; amp is running and burning it in in the meantime!

EDIT with impressions:

They sound very good, and do nothing wrong. Bass is well controlled, mids are detailed and resonant, treble a little grainy but well extended. Overall presentation is very detailed, well-textured and airy with a touch of warmth. Soundstage wide but not too deep. Would definitely rank it above average in the 6SN7s! My benchmark is now the 6J5s though which I think sound better overall compared to the single envelope, but these are certainly very good tubes!

another edit: really enjoying the weight and detail from this tube. All frequencies work very well without anything overwhelming the overall presentation; good (not the most balanced I've heard) linearity. Very nice all-rounder

final edit: not a genre I usually listen to, but these tubes work really nicely with electronic music. Paired with a TS 6080 for testing, I'd imagine a 5998 would give it even more weight and more smoothness across the board. May give it a try with my 5998 tomorrow but also many 6J5s to test first


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> You are kind and a gentleman....I may take you up on it at some point when the Melz / Foton itch requires scratching. Right now I have more tubes than time!
> Best!


If you happen across any Telefunken LS50's I need at least two of them. I am building a speaker amp in order to win a bet and will want to upgrade the tubes down the road.

Also in late winter I may build a couple more Incubus Elegan amps as samples to loan out, class A OTL's with 6sn7 and 6080 tubes. Many of the guys checking out the solid plate 1958 Melz have them so their experience should be similar to my own. I coupled this one with a Tung Sol 5998.


----------



## Paladin79

Ok I have a strange request but it does involve a 6sn7 equivalent tube.

If one of you gentlemen in California can locate and ship me some Satsuma mandarin oranges I would reciprocate by giving you a 1963 Melz 1578 that I have re-soldered so it is good to go. 


*Fruit:* Mandarin
*Variety:*  Satsuma


*What Are They?*  A mandarin with a thin easy peeling skin and delicate flesh. One of the sweetest varieties of citrus.
*Origins/History:  *Originates in China. Introduced to the United States from the Satsuma Province in Japan during the late 19th Century.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I have a strange request but it does involve a 6sn7 equivalent tube.
> 
> If one of you gentlemen in California can locate and ship me some Satsuma mandarin oranges I would reciprocate by giving you a 1963 Melz 1578 that I have re-soldered so it is good to go.
> 
> ...


I'll poke around for you see what i can find


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I have a strange request but it does involve a 6sn7 equivalent tube.
> 
> If one of you gentlemen in California can locate and ship me some Satsuma mandarin oranges I would reciprocate by giving you a 1963 Melz 1578 that I have re-soldered so it is good to go.
> 
> ...


Tom,
There is an orchard and fruit stand 7 miles from me with satsumas. How much do you want?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Tom,
> There is an orchard and fruit stand 7 miles from me with satsumas. How much do you want?


5-10 lbs is plenty at this time if they are not super expensive. Some places in California they were like $2 a pound.

@JKDJedi it looks like we have a winner. I just happened to think, if anyone wants to give reactions to the 1958 Melz solid plate tube, they could put a spoiler alert at the top and a warning not to read down if they are waiting for the overall results. I am going to send Sam a 58 to try and that way in case others on the west coast want to hear one, you can send it on to them. @LoryWiv is in northern California and I would trust him with the tube if he wants to hear one.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> 5-10 lbs is plenty at this time if they are not super expensive. Some places in California they were like $2 a pound.
> 
> @JKDJedi it looks like we have a winner. I just happened to think, if anyone wants to give reactions to the 1958 Melz solid plate tube, they could put a spoiler alert at the top and a warning not to read down if they are waiting for the overall results. I am going to send Sam a 58 to try and that way in case others on the west coast want to hear one, you can send it on to them. @LoryWiv is in northern California and I would trust him with the tube if he wants to hear one.


With pleasure, PM me for contact details. I am still in search of more experience with what various drivers have to offer, and after a foray into Europe (Brimar, Fivre, GEC) and the US (Sylvania, RCA, Tung Sol, Ken Rad, even the much maligned GE) would love to see what my Russian ancestors cooked up!


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> 5-10 lbs is plenty at this time if they are not super expensive. Some places in California they were like $2 a pound.
> 
> @JKDJedi it looks like we have a winner. I just happened to think, if anyone wants to give reactions to the 1958 Melz solid plate tube, they could put a spoiler alert at the top and a warning not to read down if they are waiting for the overall results. I am going to send Sam a 58 to try and that way in case others on the west coast want to hear one, you can send it on to them. @LoryWiv is in northern California and I would trust him with the tube if he wants to hear one.


I'll wait, you kind of did that already on some threads here ...😁 I'm not gonna be "that guy" on this one. I only had 10 minutes with it today.. three shipments came in so my brain is scattered right now. I'll PM you my thoughts...
71'   58'   63'


----------



## LoryWiv

I can help in the quest for citrus as well. The highlighted location is nearly walking distance for me. PM me your order and address and it will be on it's way to you this weekend.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'll wait, you kind of did that already on some threads here ...😁 I'm not gonna be "that guy" on this one. I only had 10 minutes with it today.. three shipments came in so my brain is scattered right now. I'll PM you my thoughts...
> 71'   58'   63'


A lot of things happen, I got the solid plate tubes, loaned them out and then others said they wanted to wait till all the results were in before they said much. I also try to tell people I do not like to go by single opinions, even my own, so I include others.   I have not revealed a couple things about those tubes, and I am curious if others pick up on  specific differences.


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> I can help in the quest for citrus as well. The highlighted location is nearly walking distance for me. PM me your order and address and it will be on it's way to you this weekend.


I have nothing against trying others lol, I will send you my address and see that you are well rewarded, along with Sam. When it rains, it pours, I should have asked long ago lol.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I have a strange request but it does involve a 6sn7 equivalent tube.
> 
> If one of you gentlemen in California can locate and ship me some Satsuma mandarin oranges I would reciprocate by giving you a 1963 Melz 1578 that I have re-soldered so it is good to go.
> 
> ...


That is a strange request indeed. I live in the frozen wastes of Northern Canada and even we have Satsumas this time of year. What gives?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> That is a strange request indeed. I live in the frozen wastes of Northern Canada and even we have Satsumas this time of year. What gives?


They are shipped in or grow there? We can order them here but they are very expensive. Get them where they are grown and the price is reasonable.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> They are shipped in or grow there? We can order them here but they are very expensive. Get them where they are grown and the price is reasonable.



No, they have to be shipped in. Expensive? Everything in Canada is expensive, but I wouldn't say _very_ expensive. Around X-mas time has always been the best time for oranges here - especially when we get the ones grown in Japan . I just assumed it was the same everywhere.

You're not going to try using them to power your amps, are you? Like a potato powered clock…


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> No, they have to be shipped in. Expensive? Everything in Canada is expensive, but I wouldn't say _very_ expensive. Around X-mas time has always been the best time for oranges here - especially when we get the ones grown in Japan . I just assumed it was the same everywhere.
> 
> You're not going to try using them to power your amps, are you? Like a potato powered clock…


Lol

Anyway I just had a Russian tube seller tell me there is no such thing as the Melz solid plate tubes I own. I sent him a photo.


----------



## Paladin79

@JKDJedi has a solid plate 1958 Melz and @sam6550a should have one in a few days after which we should open up the discussion. @bcowen, @Ripper2860, and @FLTWS may want to join in. It is similar to a Melz 1578 and many of you will know that tube.

I feel bad that this tube is not readily available, if you watch for one, you might get lucky.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> @JKDJedi has a solid plate 1958 Melz and @sam6550a should have one in a few days after which we should open up the discussion. @bcowen, @Ripper2860, and @FLTWS may want to join in. It is similar to a Melz 1578 and many of you will know that tube.
> 
> I feel bad that this tube is not readily available, if you watch for one, you might get lucky.


And done... was fun and enjoyable while I had it.. sending her back home today. Now if it looks like a Foton... it's because some settling may have accurred during shipment... 😂... I jest of course!


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 20, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> And done... was fun and enjoyable while I had it.. sending her back home today. Now if it looks like a Foton... it's because some settling may have accurred during shipment... 😂... I jest of course!


You send me a Foton and I will send Finnegan to live with you for a couple weeks. He likes to get up early and starts going after your possessions if you do not get up with him lol

As usual, great photos!! The photo made me wonder if the solid plate was a little taller than the 1578 so I got out a micrometer and mine certainly measured that way. Only a tenth of a mm but still, a difference.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And done... was fun and enjoyable while I had it.. sending her back home today. Now if it looks like a Foton... it's because some settling may have accurred during shipment... 😂... I jest of course!



You rat.  You promised you wouldn't tell that I swapped the Melz internals out with a worn out Foton. My lips still hurt from suckin' that vacuum back in there.  Oh well.  @Paladin79 probably won't be able to hear the difference anyway.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You rat.  You promised you wouldn't tell that I swapped the Melz internals out with a worn out Foton. My lips still hurt from suckin' that vacuum back in there.  Oh well.  @Paladin79 probably won't be able to hear the difference anyway.


😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You rat.  You promised you wouldn't tell that I swapped the Melz internals out with a worn out Foton. My lips still hurt from suckin' that vacuum back in there.  Oh well.  @Paladin79 probably won't be able to hear the difference anyway.


Even Finnegan can tell the difference! The Fotons tend to spread more glass when he knocks them onto a tile floor.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> I have nothing against trying others lol, I will send you my address and see that you are well rewarded, along with Sam. When it rains, it pours, I should have asked long ago lol.


U.S. made, variegated green plates, (vitamin) C getters, vegan micas and perforated basket base. Beautiful orange glow when lit, organic mids, characteristic sweetness and bite. Enjoy.


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> U.S. made, variegated green plates, (vitamin) C getters, vegan micas and perforated basket base. Beautiful orange glow when lit, organic mids, characteristic sweetness and bite. Enjoy.


Wow leaves as well lol Read the book Sellout by Paul Beatty sometime, it is where I learned of them lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wow leaves as well lol Read the book Sellout by Paul Beatty sometime, it is where I learned of them lol.



The leaves are for Finnegan to eat so he can barf on the carpet.  I'm really liking @LoryWiv 's forethought.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The leaves are for Finnegan to eat so he can barf on the carpet.  I'm really liking @LoryWiv 's forethought.


I’d send you a couple but most likely you would just slather them with bar-b-cue sauce and try to grill them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I’d send you a couple but most likely you would just slather them with bar-b-cue sauce and try to grill them.



Leaves?  Or dried barf?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Leaves?  Or dried barf?


Satsumas lol. Do you know of them? They are very good.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 20, 2020)

Little something for the tube loving community..  *Vacuum Tube Valley Magazine*.  * entire 20 magazine set for free!*

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/04...EuuVQ5fzDou6Ygr2WRuROih853uASlhBLmQjxozFbQYA4


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> The leaves are for Finnegan to eat so he can barf on the carpet.  I'm really liking @LoryWiv 's forethought.


Hey man, it's the Holidays....something for the whole family!


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Hey man, it's the Holidays....something for the whole family!


You tell him @LoryWiv  

I had not been on HDTracks for a while so I am sampling various albums this morn. A fairly new audiophile analog collection volume 1 is interesting.


----------



## Marutks

I got this tube from ebay.   Is it real  Tung Sol Black Glass _Round_ _Plate ?







_


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 24, 2020)

That looks to be correct, a very nice find indeed!

@bcowen reminded me there are two versions but in tests conducted by friends both did equally well.

@sam6550a now has a solid plate Melz with different characteristics so soon we can discuss that tube in more detail.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 24, 2020)

Marutks said:


> I got this tube from ebay.   Is it real  Tung Sol Black Glass _Round_ _Plate ?
> _


Not the Tung Sols expert and it might carry the sound of the famous BGRP . However.. someone will point out the collectors BGRP will have the oval micas. not round.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tung-sol-6sn7-6sn7gt-bgrp-oval-mica-220237599


----------



## highstream

I wouldn’t get too carried away with this, as I understand from reading people who followed the history that the round plate business was a marketing ploy by a seller who wanted to jack up prices. Tubemaze.info, who has listened to both round and flat plate versions of the equivalent 6F8G, prefers the latter for its greater body, finding the round plate version on the thin side. Don’t know about the 6SN7 version, but the round plates haven’t been a favorite of users at his site, fwiw.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

highstream said:


> I wouldn’t get too carried away with this, as I understand from reading people who followed the history that the round plate business was a marketing ploy by a seller who wanted to jack up prices. Tubemaze.info, who has listened to both round and flat plate versions of the equivalent 6F8G, prefers the latter for its greater body, finding the round plate version on the thin side. Don’t know about the 6SN7 version, but the round plates haven’t been a favorite of users at his site, fwiw.



He seems to absolutely praise any other round plate tube though: https://tubemaze.info/?s=round+plate&submit=Search
So is it the plates being round or something else?


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 24, 2020)

tubebuyer2020 said:


> He seems to absolutely praise any other round plate tube though: https://tubemaze.info/?s=round+plate&submit=Search
> So is it the plates being round or something else?


The Micas. (mine is not the VT-231, note that the heat sinks are aligned)


----------



## highstream (Nov 24, 2020)

Maybe what he's listened to


tubebuyer2020 said:


> He seems to absolutely praise any other round plate tube though: https://tubemaze.info/?s=round+plate&submit=Search
> So is it the plates being round or something else?



You apparently didn't do a search on 6SN7 or 6F8G at that site. Note that some of what Nikolay writes is based on his listening, hence what he's had come through, and some comes from what users have posted on his site.


----------



## JKDJedi

highstream said:


> Maybe what he's listened to
> 
> 
> You apparently didn't do a search on 6SN7 or 6F8G at that site. Note that some of what Nikolay writes is based on his listening, hence what he's had come through, and some comes from what users have posted on his site.


and that's the bottom line .. if you like the tube, what else matters?


----------



## highstream

If it were only so simple...


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 24, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> and that's the bottom line .. if you like the tube, what else matters?


I like different 6sn7 equivalents in different amps, and the amp I designed tends to show off any flaws in said tubes. The RPBG tung sols do quite well in my amp but so far only 25 people or so have heard the combo and thought the same in blind testing, 3 did not think they scored more than 89 on a 100 scale.

There is expectation bias with some tubes because of hype and associated price tags.


----------



## Paladin79

A loaner solid plate Melz made it back safe and sound after going to four people I trust, well three and @bcowen.  One never knows what skullduggery he might be up to.

Once @sam6550a is ready, let the discussion begin! 

Also I have another version on the way that does not have shiny black plates or the ribs shown on this tube. It may well be from the 80's and have a mid-forward sound, unlike the balanced sound of these beauties. The plates resemble Fotons from 58 on but I will not receive that tube till January. The joys of ordering directly from Russia.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A loaner solid plate Melz made it back safe and sound after going to four people I trust, well three and @bcowen.  One never knows what skullduggery he might be up to.



I just got it broken-in really well for everybody else.  But still no mention of gratitude from _anyone_.  I'm going to have to start paying it backwards.     



Paladin79 said:


> Also I have another version on the way that does not have shiny black plates or the ribs shown on this tube. It may well be from the 80's and have a mid-forward sound, unlike the balanced sound of these beauties. The plates resemble Fotons from 58 on but I will not receive that tube till January. The joys of ordering directly from Russia.



My last shipment from Russia arrived in 8 days.  And one from the UK in 7 days.  Yes, amazed I was.  And then today as a counterpoint I get an email from USPS stating they're still looking for the TungSol 5998 that was shipped back in May.  No wonder they're having problems...all those people spending time looking for one little box.  LOL!


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> A loaner solid plate Melz made it back safe and sound after going to four people I trust, well three and @bcowen.  One never knows what skullduggery he might be up to.
> 
> Once @sam6550a is ready, let the discussion begin!
> 
> Also I have another version on the way that does not have shiny black plates or the ribs shown on this tube. It may well be from the 80's and have a mid-forward sound, unlike the balanced sound of these beauties. The plates resemble Fotons from 58 on but I will not receive that tube till January. The joys of ordering directly from Russia.


Also thanks to @Paladin79 for hooking me up with the '63 Melz, really a special tube. Happy holidays, tube-aholics, and enjoy your families without whom this hobby would only occur in a "vacuum". 😱


----------



## JTbbb

Paladin79 said:


> A loaner solid plate Melz made it back safe and sound after going to four people I trust, well three and @bcowen.  One never knows what skullduggery he might be up to.
> 
> Once @sam6550a is ready, let the discussion begin!
> 
> Also I have another version on the way that does not have shiny black plates or the ribs shown on this tube. It may well be from the 80's and have a mid-forward sound, unlike the balanced sound of these beauties. The plates resemble Fotons from 58 on but I will not receive that tube till January. The joys of ordering directly from Russia.



Would you guys be interested in trusting an English man in this loaner program of Meltz tubes? I would sure like to join in with the appraisal of these tubes, with the aim of owning a pair to add to my little collection one day. I suppose the obstacle could be postage/customs. But surely 2 little second hand tubes couldn’t cause too much trouble in that department?


----------



## Paladin79

JTbbb said:


> Would you guys be interested in trusting an English man in this loaner program of Meltz tubes? I would sure like to join in with the appraisal of these tubes, with the aim of owning a pair to add to my little collection one day. I suppose the obstacle could be postage/customs. But surely 2 little second hand tubes couldn’t cause too much trouble in that department?


There is no loaner program per se, I wanted to get reactions from those listening to the same amp I designed, the Incubus Elegan. All of those folks already owned a 63 Melz 1578 for comparison. The 58 solid plate is so rare I only put it in the hands of gentlemen I knew very well and I doubt I will send that out again other than perhaps to one gentleman in Ohio. I am starting to get low on 63 Melz 1578's and need to keep some of those as backups. If you can find 1963 Melz 1578's on Ebay they run about $120 each. There are plenty there from the 70's and 80's but they have a different sound. I have a grey non-ribbed solid plate Melz on the way but until I receive it, I will not know if it even compares to the black plate 58's. 

I do not mistrust anyone but my reason for loaning tubes was very focused.   

LoryWiv went to a lot of trouble and expense on my part as did Sam so those were different deals entirely.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There is no loaner program per se, I wanted to get reactions from those listening to the same amp I designed, the Incubus Elegan. All of those folks already owned a 63 Melz 1578 for comparison. The 58 solid plate is so rare I only put it in the hands of gentlemen I knew very well and I doubt I will send that out again other than perhaps to one gentleman in Ohio. I am starting to get low on 63 Melz 1578's and need to keep some of those as backups. If you can find 1963 Melz 1578's on Ebay they run about $120 each. There are plenty there from the 70's and 80's but they have a different sound. I have a grey non-ribbed solid plate Melz on the way but until I receive it, I will not know if it even compares to the black plate 58's.
> 
> I do not mistrust anyone but my reason for loaning tubes was very focused.
> 
> LoryWiv went to a lot of trouble and expense on my part as did Sam so those were different deals entirely.



And none of us expressed our gratitude to you (at least very publicly) for sending the '58 out for us to listen to.  So thanks Tom.  You 'da man! 

This does not affect my 'pay it backward' plan though, just to be upfront.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> And none of us expressed our gratitude to you (at least very publicly) for sending the '58 out for us to listen to.  So thanks Tom.  You 'da man!
> 
> This does not affect my 'pay it backward' plan though, just to be upfront.


Thanks Bill and if I do not like the solid plate Melz I just ordered I will send it your way. All you need do is send $117 to the Finnegan liability insurance fund I am starting. Truth be told the 58 was safer in your hands with him roaming around. I believe he is getting bored with Foton tubes and wants to experiment with more expensive cat toys. 

Opinions on the 58 Melz should start soon.


----------



## FLTWS (Nov 26, 2020)

Happy Thanksgiving all. Let's celebrate by talking about turkey and tubes. I'll take the lead on tubes. Some of us have recently been provided with a pristine same of the  1958 Melz, no-holed plate, by Paladin for evaluation.
To that end my notes on said tube. (and other ramblings on sound related stuff - in a blabby mood today so far).


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

FLTWS said:


> Happy Thanksgiving all. Let's celebrate by talking about turkey and tubes. I'll take the lead on tubes. Some of us have recently been provided with a pristine same of the  1958 Melz, no-holed plate, by Paladin for evaluation.
> To that end my notes on said tube. (and other ramblings on sound related stuff - in a blabby mood today so far).


Thanks to @FLTWS  for taking the time to offer that evaluation. Others who should be joining in on 58 solid plate discussions are @bcowen, @Ripper2860, @JKDJedi, and @sam6550a. There are many who have the 63 Melz perforated plate and those tubes are very similar.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> Happy Thanksgiving all. Let's celebrate by talking about turkey and tubes. I'll take the lead on tubes. Some of us have recently been provided with a pristine same of the  1958 Melz, no-holed plate, by Paladin for evaluation.
> To that end my notes on said tube. (and other ramblings on sound related stuff - in a blabby mood today so far).



Nice!  Great detail and description (as usual).  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Just a point of interest: I tested the '58 when I first got it, and there's about a 10% GM difference between the triodes. One is about 5% above a NOS GM of 2600, and the other 5% below.  Be interesting for @Paladin79 to test that tube now after (presumably) a few hundred hours of play and see what it shows on his B&K tester.  That said, unless a tube is running close to (or below) minimum GM in one or both triodes, I've never been able to detect a channel imbalance even with a spread of close to 20% between the sections.  So a 10% difference in a very strong tube is not going to be audible, at least in my experience.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks Bill and if I do not like the solid plate Melz I just ordered I will send it your way. All you need do is send $117 to the Finnegan liability insurance fund I am starting. Truth be told the 58 was safer in your hands with him roaming around.



Well....maybe not.  The '58 Melz safely escaped my clutches, but this NEC 6520 didn't.   Dang Japanese tubes....drop 'em on the floor even one little time and they break.  Sheeez.

I'll give it a spin in the Incubus later today and see if it sounds better without the glass.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Nice!  Great detail and description (as usual).  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
> 
> Just a point of interest: I tested the '58 when I first got it, and there's about a 10% GM difference between the triodes. One is about 5% above a NOS GM of 2600, and the other 5% below.  Be interesting for @Paladin79 to test that tube now after (presumably) a few hundred hours of play and see what it shows on his B&K tester.  That said, unless a tube is running close to (or below) minimum GM in one or both triodes, I've never been able to detect a channel imbalance even with a spread of close to 20% between the sections.  So a 10% difference in a very strong tube is not going to be audible, at least in my experience.


I will get my tube tester out soon, I believe it is part of a Finnegan barricade at the moment.

Recently I mixed the 63 Melz 1578, the 58 solid plate Melz, a black plate Ken-Rad VT231, and a 1942 RCA grey glass in a blind test for eight friends. Test amps were four identical Incubus amps and an Aqua La Voce S3 DAC, HD 800 headphones.

The numbers on this round, with 100 being a perfect score were.

98 for the 58 solid plate Melz
97 for the 63 Melz 1578
94 for the Ken-Rad
93 for the RCA

My personal scores were just one point lower for each of the Melz with the other tubes coming in at 94 each. It is not right to have two tubes so close by the same manufacturer in our final 52 tubes so it will be the 1958 solid plate. It is right up there with the top tubes we have for said test.

The biggest difference in the Melz tubes, for me, was a bit of background noise with no signal for the 63 Melz. The 58 is dead silent in my amp with no signal. Scores aside I believe the 58 has a slight edge in bass accuracy and top end but I am listening with Focal Utopias and not the Sennheisers. I am also listening with a Gungnir DAC.  Tung Sol 5998 power tube. 

The mids on the Melz tubes of this structure are incredible. On some of the later Melz the mids are a bit overwhelming.


----------



## JKDJedi

FLTWS said:


> Happy Thanksgiving all. Let's celebrate by talking about turkey and tubes. I'll take the lead on tubes. Some of us have recently been provided with a pristine same of the  1958 Melz, no-holed plate, by Paladin for evaluation.
> To that end my notes on said tube. (and other ramblings on sound related stuff - in a blabby mood today so far).


Got PDF?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Well....maybe not.  The '58 Melz safely escaped my clutches, but this NEC 6520 didn't.   Dang Japanese tubes....drop 'em on the floor even one little time and they break.  Sheeez.
> 
> I'll give it a spin in the Incubus later today and see if it sounds better without the glass.


You know those can't be found anywhere right now right... sigh


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You know those can't be found anywhere right now right... sigh



Yeah, I know.  First the un-resuscitatable Bendix 6080, now this.  I'm having a bad tube week.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Got PDF?


See how this works for you.


----------



## FLTWS (Nov 26, 2020)

Thanks Tom, I was just gonna pdf it, I think I know how, LOL.
You saved me the trouble.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

FLTWS said:


> Thanks Tom, I was just gonna pdf it, I think I know how, LOL.


I am sure you do lol. I have three computers and an IPad pro opened right now so it was easy enough.

I am listening to a 56 Melz solid plate right now but in all honesty I cannot tell much difference between that and the 58. Getting that tube by accident is what started me on this quest.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I will get my tube tester out soon, I believe it is part of a Finnegan barricade at the moment.
> 
> Recently I mixed the 63 Melz 1578, the 58 solid plate Melz, a black plate Ken-Rad VT231, and a 1942 RCA grey glass in a blind test for eight friends. Test amps were four identical Incubus amps and an Aqua La Voce S3 DAC, HD 800 headphones.
> 
> ...



I A n B tested this tube against my set of Russian tubes (Fotons not included),Melz 1578- 63' 71', (and a pair of 51' 68HC) Only one of them  gave it a good run.. the 63'.  As @Paladin79 pointed out, a very good set of headphones will probably reveal everything these tubes can offer (especially/mostly the 58' oddity) I have great entry level headphones imo so these are my views on the 58' with that in mind. Too my ears the 63' has a velvet texture with an all day sound, it will not fatigue you for them long sessions. The 58' is all that with the ability to draw you into the music a little deeper. Scorpions Live album, track -HOILIDAY- Isn't the best recorded track out there, yet still able to draw some emotion and an occasional goose bump. The 58' somehow made the track more A L i v e... with added detail in the sour rounding crowd. That was my "oh dam" moment with this tube. I also noticed instruments are evenly spread throughout the spectrum range, nothing jumps out at you or gets in the way, and the vocals..wow.. I almost forgot about the vocals..because of that even spread.. vocals seem to take center stage, not in an obtrusive way, with an elevated roundedness. A bonus for Thom Yorke recordings.  

   That was fun to roll,  Thanks @Paladin79


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am sure you do lol. I have three computers and an IPad pro opened right now so it was easy enough.
> 
> I am listening to a 56 Melz solid plate right now but in all honesty I cannot tell much difference between that and the 58. Getting that tube by accident is what started me on this quest.



Does the '56 have the metal top mica supports like the rare '58?  Or is it a standard, non-1578 version?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I A n B tested this tube against my set of Russian tubes (Fotons not included),Melz 1578- 63' 71', (and a pair of 51' 68HC) Only one of them  gave it a good run.. the 63'.  As @Paladin79 pointed out, a very good set of headphones will probably reveal everything these tubes can offer (especially/mostly the 58' oddity) I have great entry level headphones imo so these are my views on the 58' with that in mind. Too my ears the 63' has a velvet texture with an all day sound, it will not fatigue you for them long sessions. The 58' is all that with the ability to draw you into the music a little deeper. Scorpions Live album, track -HOILIDAY- Isn't the best recorded track out there, yet still able to draw some emotion and an occasional goose bump. The 58' somehow made the track more A L i v e... with added detail in the sour rounding crowd. That was my "oh dam" moment with this tube. I also noticed instruments are evenly spread throughout the spectrum range, nothing jumps out at you or gets in the way, and the vocals..wow.. I almost forgot about the vocals..because of that even spread.. vocals seem to take center stage, not in an obtrusive way, with an elevated roundedness. A bonus for Thom Yorke recordings.
> 
> That was fun to roll,  Thanks @Paladin79


I love your photos. Notice how all have the same ribs in the plates, solid or perforated. Now imagine a Foton's plates from the 60's being in place of those two types of plates. I have one of those on the way but I have doubts it will sound close to the 63, I do not know the year on it yet but the plates look like this Foton. Now @bcowen loves his Fotons so if the new tube has the Foton bass with the Melz mids and highs, he will be in hog heaven.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Does the '56 have the metal top mica supports like the rare '58?  Or is it a standard, non-1578 version?


Identical to the 58 in all ways. Metal top supports, ledge on mica plates etc.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I love your photos. Notice how all have the same ribs in the plates, solid or perforated. Now imagine a Foton's plates from the 60's being in place of those two types of plates. I have one of those on the way but I have doubts it will sound close to the 63, I do not know the year on it yet but the plates look like this Foton. Now @bcowen loves his Fotons so if the new tube has the Foton bass with the Melz mids and highs, he will be in hog heaven.



LOL!  Give me the 'Foton Bump' in the upper bass and a tad more harmonic depth and richness in the mids and I won't need to buy any more tubes again ever. Well, except some backups.  And backups for the backups.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Give me the 'Foton Bump' in the upper bass and a tad more harmonic depth and richness in the mids and I won't need to buy any more tubes again ever. Well, except some backups.  And backups for the backups.


Ok this is not a doctored photo, just something for you to think about. It is what I have on the way. If it is from 71 as I suspect, that is not a bad year for a Melz 1578. Imagine Foton bass with mids that jump out at you and highs that must be in the spectrum somewhere.
Smooth grey plates, otherwise the attributes of the 1578.



For those of you wondering about grey plates vs shiny black. Shiny black plates on a 58 Melz in the front. 

Shiny black perforated plate of a Melz 1578 from 1963 in the front.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Give me the 'Foton Bump' in the upper bass and a tad more harmonic depth and richness in the mids and I won't need to buy any more tubes again ever. Well, except some backups.  And backups for the backups.


That is the fun thing about tube collecting, just when you think you know all the variables of a particular brand, something new shows up. If the grey solid plate is anywhere near as good as the 58's I will buy up all I can and dangle a loaner in front of @bcowen.


----------



## highstream (Nov 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Give me the 'Foton Bump' in the upper bass and a tad more harmonic depth and richness in the mids and I won't need to buy any more tubes again ever. Well, except some backups.  And backups for the backups.



I’ve had both an exhilarating and exasperating experience so far with a pair of ‘63 1578s from Paladin79, and if I read bcowen’s post correctly, the latter experience has been along the same lines as his. But my pair only have about 180 hours on them, which is not nearly enough to make any final evaluations or decisions. Rather, in the spirit of the request for Thanksgiving stories, I want to mention a cable, and I hope Palladin79 won’t object to my telling it.

While privately discussing the Melz, I asked Tom if he ever made umbilical cords. I have a Supratek preamp with a separate PSU, with an umbilical cable tying it to the main unit, which uses 6SN7s (part of a living room stereo speaker system). He hadn’t, but generously offered to make one for me with the same silver-plated copper wire that goes into his headphone amps. Now, the funny thing about this offer was that he doesn’t believe that such a power cord can make a difference in sound quality. Nor, in fact, does the preamp’s developer, to the degree that he threatened to cancel the lifetime warranty if I used another than his (he eventually backed off and offered to “profusely apologize” if it makes a significant improvement). My experience had told me a different story, so we proceeded.

From the moment I first plugged it in, it was like I had upgraded the preamp to the model costing $1K more. Playing Agnes Obel’s Katie Cruel, from what had been a large soundstage blob, the music now just snapped into focus, with voice and electronics well placed and coherent. The only catch at that moment was the music was what I call pitch elevated, as if a piano standardly tuned at A above middle C had been tuned at the C above that. I guess that’s what is meant by bright. Based on other experiences, worry set in: would this right itself, when it hadn’t with other gear? Was the silver screwing things up?  Well, 50 hours in the bass righted itself. All of a sudden, singer Andy Bey’s low notes went really low and became gravelly, until he ran out of breath. After that, the only thing left, other than the patience of a few hundred hours of the ups and downs of burn in, was to make sure the mids and uppers settled as well, that the tonality and a bit of warmth I like would be there. Now, a bit over 500 hours in, I can say everything seems in order. 6SN7 tubes like 1943 Ken-Rad’s  sound dry and cool and voices not quite human, while a 1945 RCA pair sound as warm and (overly) euphonic, as advertised.

So in the spirit of Thanksgiving, I’m very grateful for having stumbled across this thread, the good advice and tales others contribute, and most of all for Palladin79’s presence here.


----------



## LoryWiv (Nov 26, 2020)

FLTWS said:


> Happy Thanksgiving all. Let's celebrate by talking about turkey and tubes. I'll take the lead on tubes. Some of us have recently been provided with a pristine same of the  1958 Melz, no-holed plate, by Paladin for evaluation.
> To that end my notes on said tube. (and other ramblings on sound related stuff - in a blabby mood today so far).


A fun and useful read, @FLTWS. In addition to the '58 & '63 being quite close, another takeaway is "...I moved that Melz over to my Incvbvs and wow what a difference. The richness of tone, the sense of air around the instruments, the roundness and sense of body given instruments, the deeper dimensions the Incvbvs gave the soundfield." Kudos to @Paladin79, and that settles it: no Schitt!

While we're sharing impressions, below is what I PM'd @Paladin after spending time with the '63 Melz pair he shared with me in FA Elise: "Had a 1st listen to the '63 MELZ and yes, I can already tell they are special. Using powers I know well that are clean and neutral, the Melz '63 preserve the frequency balance / technicalities (layering, stage, separation, detail) but add some magic, In particular, attack, decay and note weight (perhaps PRaT if you believe in such things) seem just right. The bass is just short of my KR VT-231's but may actually be more tuneful! I am a touch treble sensitive and these bring extension that never crosses over into strident. The mids are the one area I'm not sure of yet, seem a little dry but I must say they are really clean, not a touch of grain, just could benefit from a bit more euphony. All in all, these are keepers for me. "

Since that 1st impression I've changed powers to the slightly warmer GEC 6080 and these have imbued that hoped for euphony in the mids. Really enjoying these tubes in Elise,

Happiest thanksgiving to all!

LW


----------



## Paladin79

highstream said:


> I’ve had both an exhilarating and exasperating experience so far with a pair of ‘63 1578s from Paladin79, and if I read bcowen’s post correctly, the latter experience has been along the same lines as his. But my pair only have about 180 hours on them, which is not nearly enough to make any final judgments or decisions. Rather, in the spirit of the request for Thanksgiving stories, I want to mention a cable, and I hope Palladin79 won’t object to my telling it.
> 
> While privately discussing the Melz, I asked Tom if he ever made umbilical cords. I have a Supratek preamp with a separate PSU, with an umbilical cable tying it to the main unit, which uses 6SN7s (part of a living room stereo speaker system). He hadn’t, but generously offered to make one for me with the same silver-plated copper wire that go in his headphone amps. Now, the funny thing about this offer was that he doesn’t believe that such a power cord can make a difference in sound quality. Nor, in fact, does the preamp’s developer, to the degree that he threatened to cancel the lifetime warranty if I used another than his (he eventually backed off and offered to “profusely apologize” if it makes a significant improvement). My experience had told me a different story, so we proceeded.
> 
> ...


You are most kind.
My background is in science and I have worked with most types of cables and wire known to man over the last 15 years so I am definitely opinionated about some things because of my training and experience. 
That being said, what a person hears and enjoys is a very personal thing. In the case of tubes, I hate to say this tube is wonderful because I think this or that. Thus I call upon groups of people to give opinions and substantiate said opinions as best possible with my local audiophile group and some friends on here. Some of the Melz tubes can be tricky because of the solder the Russians used, I do my best to replace that but on occasion problems can arise regardless of my good intentions.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Ok this is not a doctored photo, just something for you to think about. It is what I have on the way. If it is from 71 as I suspect, that is not a bad year for a Melz 1578. Imagine Foton bass with mids that jump out at you and highs that must be in the spectrum somewhere.
> Smooth grey plates, otherwise the attributes of the 1578.
> 
> 
> ...


Now that looks like an outcome of a Melz 1578 & Foton unwanted child from a wild orgy...  Woodstock?


----------



## bcowen

highstream said:


> I’ve had both an exhilarating and exasperating experience so far with a pair of ‘63 1578s from Paladin79, and if I read bcowen’s post correctly, the latter experience has been along the same lines as his. But my pair only have about 180 hours on them, which is not nearly enough to make any final evaluations or decisions. Rather, in the spirit of the request for Thanksgiving stories, I want to mention a cable, and I hope Palladin79 won’t object to my telling it.
> 
> While privately discussing the Melz, I asked Tom if he ever made umbilical cords. I have a Supratek preamp with a separate PSU, with an umbilical cable tying it to the main unit, which uses 6SN7s (part of a living room stereo speaker system). He hadn’t, but generously offered to make one for me with the same silver-plated copper wire that goes into his headphone amps. Now, the funny thing about this offer was that he doesn’t believe that such a power cord can make a difference in sound quality. Nor, in fact, does the preamp’s developer, to the degree that he threatened to cancel the lifetime warranty if I used another than his (he eventually backed off and offered to “profusely apologize” if it makes a significant improvement). My experience had told me a different story, so we proceeded.
> 
> ...



This is why you need one of these.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Now that looks like an outcome of a Melz 1578 & Foton unwanted child from a wild orgy...  Woodstock?


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> A fun and useful read, @FLTWS. In addition to the '58 & '63 being quite close, another takeaway is "...I moved that Melz over to my Incvbvs and wow what a difference. The richness of tone, the sense of air around the instruments, the roundness and sense of body given instruments, the deeper dimensions the Incvbvs gave the soundfield." Kudos to @Paladin79, and that settles it: no Schitt!
> 
> While we're sharing impressions, below is what I PM'd @Paladin after spending time with the '63 Melz pair he shared with me in FA Elise: "Had a 1st listen to the '63 MELZ and yes, I can already tell they are special. Using powers I know well that are clean and neutral, the Melz '63 preserve the frequency balance / technicalities (layering, stage, separation, detail) but add some magic, In particular, attack, decay and note weight (perhaps PRaT if you believe in such things) seem just right. The bass is just short of my KR VT-231's but may actually be more tuneful! I am a touch treble sensitive and these bring extension that never crosses over into strident. The mids are the one area I'm not sure of yet, seem a little dry but I must say they are really clean, not a touch of grain, just could benefit from a bit more euphony. All in all, these are keepers for me. "
> 
> ...



Thanks for the listening notes!

And I _love_ the pic!  I had no idea there were headphones made _specifically_ for @Ripper2860 .


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> A fun and useful read, @FLTWS. In addition to the '58 & '63 being quite close, another takeaway is "...I moved that Melz over to my Incvbvs and wow what a difference. The richness of tone, the sense of air around the instruments, the roundness and sense of body given instruments, the deeper dimensions the Incvbvs gave the soundfield." Kudos to @Paladin79, and that settles it: no Schitt!
> 
> While we're sharing impressions, below is what I PM'd @Paladin after spending time with the '63 Melz pair he shared with me in FA Elise: "Had a 1st listen to the '63 MELZ and yes, I can already tell they are special. Using powers I know well that are clean and neutral, the Melz '63 preserve the frequency balance / technicalities (layering, stage, separation, detail) but add some magic, In particular, attack, decay and note weight (perhaps PRaT if you believe in such things) seem just right. The bass is just short of my KR VT-231's but may actually be more tuneful! I am a touch treble sensitive and these bring extension that never crosses over into strident. The mids are the one area I'm not sure of yet, seem a little dry but I must say they are really clean, not a touch of grain, just could benefit from a bit more euphony. All in all, these are keepers for me. "
> 
> ...



This is what I PM'd @Paladin79 after I'd listened to the '58 Melz:

1) As I mentioned previously (and my thoughts haven't changed), this tube extracts low-level detail better than most anything I've heard. I don't mean in-your-face hyped up treble, I'm talking about the longer fade into complete silence of a note. The multiples of harmonics that accompany a note. The more individualized voices in the audience of a live recording. All those 'background' type things that happen and that you can hear in live music, but too often go missing in an audio system reproduction. Makes things more _real,_ if you will.
2) Treble is extended and airy without ever being fatiguing or out of proportion.
3) Nice depth to the soundstage, especially compared to the Foton. Width is about the same, but the Melz is deeper and there is better imaging of performers in their own space.
4) Bass is nicely extended and has exceedingly good definition. It's missing that little bump in the upper bass that the Foton has. That may be a coloration of the Foton -- who knows -- but I like it as it seems to add a nice rhythmic quality to the music. Not that the Melz is necessarily deficient in this area, just that it's an area the Foton excels in and scores highly for my personal preferences.

I get a very slight hum in the Incubus with no signal and the volume control in the 2:00 - 4:00 position. Below 2:00 and above 4:00, totally silent. I still don't understand that 2:00 - 4:00 (minor) hum and then no hum from 4:00 to 5:00, but the Melz is not the only tube that does that. I don't listen above 12:00 on anything so it's irrelevant musically -- just a test observation.

The Melz is awesome with a TS 5998, Chatham 6AS7, RCA 6AS7GA, and the Mullard 6080. It's not the best combo with the Cetron 7236...that tube needs a really warm driver tube (the GEC L63's are heavenly with it). The Melz is more neutral to my ears -- slightly to the warm side of neutral, but just slightly.

So in all, nice find! I'd put this Melz in my (personal) top 5. I like it better than the holey plate Melz -- it's just more musical to my ears.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> This is what I PM'd @Paladin79 after I'd listened to the '58 Melz:
> 
> 1) As I mentioned previously (and my thoughts haven't changed), this tube extracts low-level detail better than most anything I've heard. I don't mean in-your-face hyped up treble, I'm talking about the longer fade into complete silence of a note. The multiples of harmonics that accompany a note. The more individualized voices in the audience of a live recording. All those 'background' type things that happen and that you can hear in live music, but too often go missing in an audio system reproduction. Makes things more _real,_ if you will.
> 2) Treble is extended and airy without ever being fatiguing or out of proportion.
> ...


Now that many have spoken, the Incubus amp I designed does show a slight hum with no signal with the perforated plate Melz but not the solid plate. Bill's reactions are slightly different but this man hears things in tubes like no other person I know of so I certainly respect his opinion. I get no hum with other tubes and with the perforated plates it is slight. Oh yeah and I should mention Bills Incubus has some solid silver wire he donated to be used in his amp as well as some other parts I used in my vary own amp but few others.

Ripper may give his impressions later after he watches the Cowboys and Washington slug it out for bottom place in their division.


----------



## highstream

@bcowen  In the process of burning in the 1578, I’ve now tried eight rectifiers and have two more on the way, with the goal of finding a mesh that allows the Melz to shine rather than compete, and to give it more warmth. I’ve most often felt like I’m watching music rather than feeling it so far. 

@JKDJedi I’ve found that no matter how much time a cable spends on the developer’s Dharma, the result don’t compare with time spent plugged to actual components.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Now that many have spoken, the Incubus amp I designed does show a slight hum with no signal with the perforated plate Melz but not the solid plate. Bill's reactions are slightly different but this man hears things in tubes like no other person I know of so I certainly respect his opinion. I get no hum with other tubes and with the perforated plates it is slight. Oh yeah and I should mention Bills Incubus has some solid silver wire he donated to be used in his amp as well as some other parts I used in my vary own amp but few others.
> 
> Ripper may give his impressions later after he watches the Cowboys and Washington slug it out for bottom place in their division.


Well, here are my quick observations. I would like to try one in a Saga sometime, or I could ship you my Saga.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Now that looks like an outcome of a Melz 1578 & Foton unwanted child from a wild orgy...  Woodstock?


Shhh this is a special tube aimed for @bcowen only, I know his tastes or lack there of. I really think it is going to sound like your 71 Melz and that is not a bad thing. I will have to think of a special name for it since Cowen likes tubes with special names. Maybe the Felz, or the Moton.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 26, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> Well, here are my quick observations. I would like to try one in a Saga sometime, or I could ship you my Saga.


Very good observations Sam, I have never experienced a treble roll off with my setup. Hang onto the tube and try it in your Saga sometime, I have so much going on that it could be a while before I tried it. I generally just run two Melz 1578's or two of the solid plate Melz in a Freya plus, a quad is just too much of a good thing and probably overkill.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Shhh this is a special tube aimed for @bcowen only, I know his tastes or lack there of. I really think it is going to sound like your 71 Melz and that is not a bad thing. I will have to think of a special name for it since Cowen likes tubes with special names. Maybe the Felz, or the Moton.


Or a Woodmelz?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Or a Woodmelz?


Woodstock happens to be my dogs name. Here is Finnegan reacting to something @bcowen said. He can't exactly cover his face with his paws. Woodstock is trying to pretend he does not know of Bill.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Shhh this is a special tube aimed for @bcowen only, I know his tastes or lack there of. I really think it is going to sound like your 71 Melz and that is not a bad thing. I will have to think of a special name for it since Cowen likes tubes with special names. Maybe the Felz, or the Moton.



Oh geeez, do I have to do everything around here? The Melzoton. There.  But that's assuming the tube is respectable and not just a mutation of leftover parts.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Well, here are my quick observations. I would like to try one in a Saga sometime, or I could ship you my Saga.



Thanks for sharing, Sam!!


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Thanks for sharing, Sam!!


At my age, there is not a lot to share!


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> At my age, there is not a lot to share!



LOL!  Wisdom.  At least that's what I tell my teenage son, but he doesn't seem to know what it is.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Woodstock happens to be my dogs name. Here is Finnegan reacting to something @bcowen said. He can't exactly cover his face with his paws. Woodstock is trying to pretend he does not know of Bill.



ROFL!

But please -- Finnegan is just smelling Woodstock's butt.  That, or he already passed out.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> ROFL!
> 
> But please -- Finnegan is just smelling Woodstock's butt.  That, or he already passed out.


He probably ate some Texas barbecue.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> He probably ate some Texas barbecue.



LOL!  Then he's passed out for sure.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 27, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> At my age, there is not a lot to share!


Like never waste a ------  oops.. (too much tequila last night).


----------



## Paladin79

Finnegan is helping in my shop. 

I hope to build 6sn7 amps again soon and he tends to be right in the middle of the builds.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is helping in my shop.
> 
> I hope to build 6sn7 amps again soon and he tends to be right in the middle of the builds.



Please get LOTS of cat hair on the next amp you build for @Ripper2860 ....you know, 'cause he loves cats and all.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Please get LOTS of cat hair on the next amp you build for @Ripper2860 ....you know, 'cause he loves cats and all.


A new way to improve SD?


----------



## attmci (Nov 27, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Woodstock happens to be my dogs name. Here is Finnegan reacting to something @bcowen said. He can't exactly cover his face with his paws. Woodstock is trying to pretend he does not know of Bill.


LOL

https://www.chewy.com/kh-pet-produc...0&clickref=1011lcTC6BCJ&utm_term=1011lcTC6BCJ


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 28, 2020)

attmci said:


> LOL
> 
> https://www.chewy.com/kh-pet-produc...0&clickref=1011lcTC6BCJ&utm_term=1011lcTC6BCJ



That cat looks a lot like Finnegan. Here he is helping with some rosewood as I added splines.
I am having a hard time listening to other tubes besides Melz right now. This morn I am back to a 1969 1578, 50's and 60's versions are my favorite in that style of tube. I keep Melz in padded cases, Finnegan proof.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That cat looks a lot like Finnegan. Here he is helping with some rosewood as I added splines.
> I am having a hard time listening to other tubes besides Melz right now. This morn I am back to a 1969 1578, 50's and 60's versions are my favorite in that style of tube.



Where are Finnegan's safety glasses?  Is this an employee failure or a management issue?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Where are Finnegan's safety glasses?  Is this an employee failure or a management issue?


Management for sure. 

I can trust him with pieces of wood, tubes are another matter. The boxes they come in are not enough protection so I have to use large padded boxes. 

As far as Melz 1578's, they appear to have the same construction for a 30 year period yet they sound so different. Enhanced mids in the later tubes but very nice to listen to with some vocals. It turned out to be a round mica Melz I sent you in the tube challenge, I found it the other day. I had pulled it so as not to send it to Jason at Schiit.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Where are Finnegan's safety glasses?  Is this an employee failure or a management issue?


He is searching for 6SN7s.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 28, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> He is searching for 6SN7s.


I am listening to an excellent recording of the Hollies, Long Cool Woman in a black dress.
That song requires an older Melz for my ears, a 63.

Oh and Finnegan will not be close by as I use a kataba saw to flush cut the splines.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am listening to an excellent recording of the Hollies, Long Cool Woman in a black dress.
> That song requires an older Melz for my ears, a 63.
> 
> Oh and Finnegan will not be close by as I use a kataba saw to flush cut the splines.



Love that song...and haven't heard it in ages.  Haven't ever heard an excellent recording of it either...you streaming it or do you have a disc?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Love that song...and haven't heard it in ages.  Haven't ever heard an excellent recording of it either...you streaming it or do you have a disc?


Streaming it from Tidal in Master mode, I like it a bit better than the CD quality version even though it might be slightly lossy.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> He is searching for 6SN7s.



 

Oh, well I guess everything is cool then.  I thought Tom had put him to work sanding.  If *I* was managing, I'd definitely pawn that task off on some unfortunate underling.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Oh, well I guess everything is cool then.  I thought Tom had put him to work sanding.  If *I* was managing, I'd definitely pawn that task off on some unfortunate underling.


I spent at least a day sanding ebony for the top on FLTWS's meter box. After you work with that, most any other wood is a pleasure to sand. Most everything is relative.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> That cat looks a lot like Finnegan. Here he is helping with some rosewood as I added splines.
> I am having a hard time listening to other tubes besides Melz right now. This morn I am back to a 1969 1578, 50's and 60's versions are my favorite in that style of tube. I keep Melz in padded cases, Finnegan proof.



Been reading a couple of articles about "Shou Sugi Ban" finishing. Might look nice?

* "Shou sugi ban (焼杉板) is the art of preserving and finishing wood using fire". Art, Fire, in the same sentence, how can that not be a good thing.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Been reading a couple of articles about "Shou Sugi Ban" finishing. Might look nice?
> 
> * "Shou sugi ban (焼杉板) is the art of preserving and finishing wood using fire". Art, Fire, in the same sentence, how can that not be a good thing.


Preserving the wood is not a big factor since my work is for indoor usage but I do like that affect. I could try it on lesser expensive light wood but it is not something I would try on expensive hardwoods.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Preserving the wood is not a big factor since my work is for indoor usage but I do like that affect. I could try it on lesser expensive light wood but it is not something I would try on expensive hardwoods.



But of course. I didn't mean to imply you should take to your shop with a blowtorch, like some crazed arsonist.
Cedar is apparently the ideal wood for that type of finishing - which struck me as a bit odd, because I always thought cedar was inherently weatherproof. But it still looks cool.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> But of course. I didn't mean to imply you should take to your shop with a blowtorch, like some crazed arsonist.
> Cedar is apparently the ideal wood for that type of finishing - which struck me as a bit odd, because I always thought cedar was inherently weatherproof. But it still looks cool.


Cedar as it weathers turns grey and it is very easy to work with so that would be my choice. Carpenter bees are the only thing I know of that will attack cedar. I do like the look.  I have a bunch of black limba so I could try that as well.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> ...I didn't mean to imply you should take to your shop with a blowtorch, like some crazed arsonist.




Why not?  I mean, assuming we get a video....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Why not?  I mean, assuming we get a video....


Sure, anything for your entertainment!

This has been such a bleak year, this morn I am only listening to black glass 6sn7's. Starting with a few National Unions, then Ken-Rads, Tung Sols then on to other tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sure, anything for your entertainment!
> 
> This has been such a bleak year, this morn I am only listening to black glass 6sn7's. Starting with a few National Unions, then Ken-Rads, Tung Sols then on to other tubes.



I'm listening to these tin cans (6C5's).  Quite nice.  Exceed my preconceived notions, even.


----------



## LoryWiv (Nov 29, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Sure, anything for your entertainment!
> 
> This has been such a bleak year, this morn I am only listening to black glass 6sn7's. Starting with a few National Unions, then Ken-Rads, Tung Sols then on to other tubes.


I am testing some new powers (Tung Sol 6550's). Brimar, Ken Rad, Fivre were nice as drivers but now back to the '63 Melz and I keep having to look around to make certain i've not been transported to the venue. Really a whole next level of presence!


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> I am testing some new powers (Tung Sol 6550's). Brimar, Ken Rad, Fivre were nice as drivers but now back to the '63 Melz and I keep having to look around to make certain i've not been transported to the venue. Really a whole next level of presence!


Careful, @bcowen may start to think I might have an idea how great those tubes are.😜

I spent big bucks on a large quantity for a reason.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Careful, @bcowen may start to think I might have an idea how great those tubes are.😜
> 
> I spent big bucks on a large quantity for a reason.



Yeah, this is totally new news to me.  I had no idea you liked the Melz.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, this is totally new news to me.  I had no idea you liked the Melz.


I like the obscure ones even more but you take what you can get. Which 6sn7 equivalent  tubes do you like as well as the 58 solid plate Melz??? Hmmm? You best not say Fotons.🤪


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I like the obscure ones even more but you take what you can get. Which 6sn7 equivalent  tubes do you like as well as the 58 solid plate Melz??? Hmmm? You best not say Fotons.🤪



6SN7's are so 2010's.  I'm into L63's and 6C5's now.  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> 6SN7's are so 2010's.  I'm into L63's and 6C5's now.  LOL!!


I best not tell you how many of such tubes are making the finals in my 52 tube blind listen. I dearly hate to see a grown man cry.
😟


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I best not tell you how many of such tubes are making the finals in my 52 tube blind listen. I dearly hate to see a grown man cry.
> 😟



It's OK.  I'm not buying any more tubes anyway.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2020)

bcowen said:


> It's OK.  I'm not buying any more tubes anyway.


It’s ok, I will loan you a tube on occasion so you know what you are missing. I must still have a Marconi somewhere.😎

I guess I would be wasting my time if I offered Bill a solid plate 58 Melz for $5 then. The man is not buying any more tubes and I do not want to make him a backslider.


----------



## bcowen

Man, what a _screaming_ deal on this beautiful Bendix labeled....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN...b&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851





...*GE.*    I already feel sorry for the poor sucker that spends $80 on it...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Man, what a _screaming_ deal on this beautiful Bendix labeled....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN...b&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
> 
> ...


Amazing lol


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It’s ok, I will loan you a tube on occasion so you know what you are missing. I must still have a Marconi somewhere.😎
> 
> I guess I would be wasting my time if I offered Bill a solid plate 58 Melz for $5 then. The man is not buying any more tubes and I do not want to make him a backslider.



Don't be an enabler. That's just repugnant.

Would you sell me 2 for $10?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Don't be an enabler. That's just repugnant.
> 
> Would you sell me 2 for $10?


President LBJ quit smoking, he kept a pack of cigarettes near him in order to strengthen his resolve. I will do the same for you, I will PM a photo of a 58 solid plate now and then just to make sure your will power is holding up.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> President LBJ quit smoking, he kept a pack of cigarettes near him in order to strengthen his resolve. I will do the same for you, I will PM a photo of a 58 solid plate now and then just to make sure your will power is holding up.



Fine.  So be a _nice_ enabler then.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Fine.  So be a _nice_ enabler then.


There are few tubes I want to buy anymore, I may grab more 63 Melz 1578's if available so people can experience them without waiting for the long lead time out of Russia. Naturally I will buy more solid plate Melz because they pair so well with the Incubus amp. The L63's that you show there also work well as best I recall but for now I am only set up for blind listening of dual triode tubes. I have four coming in this week but I may not discover their identity till other friends go through the same process.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have four coming in this week but I may not discover their identity till other friends go through the same process.



Huh?  So you're going to do a "blind" package receival?  That may be carrying things a bit far, IMO.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 2, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Huh?  So you're going to do a "blind" package receival?  That may be carrying things a bit far, IMO.


You of all people should know that each tube can be hidden in such a way that the person receiving the tubes does not know brand.😁 “package receival” no less lol.



We are using a newer method, but this is the method you should know.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> You of all people should know that each tube can be hidden in such a way that the person receiving the tubes does not know brand.😁 “package receival” no less lol.
> 
> 
> 
> We are using a newer method, but this is the method you should know.



I still think you shoulda stencilled "not a bomb" onto the sides. Just to avoid confusion


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I still think you shoulda stencilled "not a bomb" onto the sides. Just to avoid confusion


lol, they mostly went to Bill and a bomb mixed in with his might have been a good thing. The man needs some excitement in his life outside of sorting his tube stash.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I still think you shoulda stencilled "not a bomb" onto the sides. Just to avoid confusion



LOL!  Yeah, plus maybe "Trust Me".


----------



## tafens

Mr Trev said:


> I still think you shoulda stencilled "not a bomb" onto the sides. Just to avoid confusion





bcowen said:


> LOL! Yeah, plus maybe "Trust Me".



And a “I promise” just for good measure


----------



## Paladin79

I would be interested to hear if anyone else has any ideas on concealing tubes for blind listening. I am not going to  spray paint tubes and we are currently using heat shrink tubing without adhesive on the inside. No tubes were harmed inside the PVC and identical octal sockets were used so the originals could not be seen. Some Russian tubes have cccp on the base. We mail these tubes but if we are testing equivalents such as 6j5's or 7a4's or odd shaped tubes there is a metal shield that fits down over them in all four identical amps I designed and built.

Imagine thinking through this the first time and coming up with a viable solution.  Not so easy eh?  All tubes are vented so we cannot just dip them in some kind of rubber or plastic coating. Some of you may or may not believe in blind listening but that is another matter. This is for my local group and a lot of thought was put into methodology.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would be interested to hear if anyone else has any ideas on concealing tubes for blind listening. I am not going to  spray paint tubes and we are currently using heat shrink tubing without adhesive on the inside. No tubes were harmed inside the PVC and identical octal sockets were used so the originals could not be seen. Some Russian tubes have cccp on the base. We mail these tubes but if we are testing equivalents such as 6j5's or 7a4's or odd shaped tubes there is a metal shield that fits down over them in all four identical amps I designed and built.
> 
> Imagine thinking through this the first time and coming up with a viable solution.  Not so easy eh?  All tubes are vented so we cannot just dip them in some kind of rubber or plastic coating. Some of you may or may not believe in blind listening but that is another matter. This is for my local group and a lot of thought was put into methodology.



All kidding aside, the way you put those tubes together inside the PVC pipe was quite impressive. There was absolutely no way to determine what tube was in there, and any tampering would have been immediately evident (to you, at least) as there would have been no way to reassemble it without leaving telltale signs. Heat shrink would work fine if the tubes are always in your control -- otherwise it could just be cut off and a new piece put on. But for remote tests like the one I did, the PVC tubes were perfect.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 3, 2020)

bcowen said:


> All kidding aside, the way you put those tubes together inside the PVC pipe was quite impressive. There was absolutely no way to determine what tube was in there, and any tampering would have been immediately evident (to you, at least) as there would have been no way to reassemble it without leaving telltale signs. Heat shrink would work fine if the tubes are always in your control -- otherwise it could just be cut off and a new piece put on. But for remote tests like the one I did, the PVC tubes were perfect.


It is very large heat shrink tubing in the color purple, not exactly something folks have laying around but this is an eight man team that knows each other well and they helped set up this process. No reason or purpose in cheating. If I were to make a wager with someone, I would go back to pvc.  We are giving scores to each tube to see if they end up in the 52 tube final test. We have already been through all the single triodes, and odd shaped tubes in the four amps. Eventually over 50 people will do that final comparison but the way the virus is going, we will be lucky to be done next year sad to say.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Man, what a _screaming_ deal on this beautiful Bendix labeled....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN7GTA-CHROME-SIDED-HALO-1954-TALL-BLACK-BASE-TESTED-STRONG-NEAR-MINT/203170361182?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20200520130048&meid=9fff955a780942d29f6f9ab3acc0d6a6&pid=100005&rk=4&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=373259982946&itm=203170361182&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
> 
> ...



I was literally admiring the top picture of the tube - had never seen a bendix 6sn7 and with a box - looked pristine...then had the misfortune of scrolling and those DOTS just glaring at me.  I startled my dogs when I reacted by yelling out "OH GODD***IT".  🤬


----------



## LoryWiv

Slade01 said:


> I was literally admiring the top picture of the tube - had never seen a bendix 6sn7 and with a box - looked pristine...then had the misfortune of scrolling and those DOTS just glaring at me.  I startled my dogs when I reacted by yelling out "OH GODD***IT".  🤬


Besides duplicity, what do the dots signify?


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 4, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Besides duplicity, what do the dots signify?


Etched dots on a tube  like as pictured means it was made by G.E.  That was their signature.

Also...its actually another form of their date code if I'm not mistaken. 

Personally, I avoid G.E tubes.  All of the 6SN7 G.E made tubes in my experience just sounded like a hot mess.


----------



## Ripper2860

White dots and a 188 MFG code.  Yep, it's a GE.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 4, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> Etched dots on a tube  like as pictured means it was made by G.E.  That was their signature.
> 
> Also...its actually another form of their date code if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Personally, I avoid G.E tubes.  All of the 6SN7 G.E made tubes in my experience just sounded like a hot mess.


It is date code and I like the way you mentioned GE 6sn7's. Some of their power tubes are not too bad.


Now one would think you could easily tell a GE from other brands in a blind listen right? Say eight tubes? If I was less busy I might set up something like that and I do have a lot of GE tubes stored away in my shop, various years. I believe the box is marked Cowen for some reason.   If the tubes are not identifiable there is no expectation bias and suddenly what you heard about a GE or a Sylvania Bad Boy or a Tung Sol might not be so discernible.

Here is an interesting pair of tubes but I see no dots. These are identical to some Canadian Marconi tubes I own.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...005227?hash=item2d159af56b:g:2GEAAOSwGQJfRIIh


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> It is date code and I like the way you mentioned GE 6sn7's. Some of their power tubes are not too bad.
> 
> 
> Now one would think you could easily tell a GE from other brands in a blind listen right? Say eight tubes? If I was less busy I might set up something like that and I do have a lot of GE tubes stored away in my shop, various years. I believe the box is marked Cowen for some reason.   If the tubes are not identifiable there is no expectation bias and suddenly what you heard about a GE or a Sylvania Bad Boy or a Tung Sol might not be so discernible.



I totally understand with expectation bias.  I also understand the amp/implementation has a lot to do with it as well, where some tube types (brands even) can sound better in one amp, but horrible in the next.  I know I give GE tubes a hard time, but my impressions of them were formed with little bias.  When I bought my amp, I bought like 2 small lots of tubes mostly Sylvania, GE and RCA...very cheap and very available, and only having one power tube (RCA 6AS7G).  I knew nothing about tubes - and my only basis for comparison was with the stock sound (Shuguang 6SN7 on the Darkvoice).  After a good amount of time rolling with them, I found that out of those, I mostly liked the tubes from Sylvania and the RCA (finding out the RCA tubes I had were also Sylvania made).  I ended up buying one more small lot of 6SN7s after another month or so passed.....to the effect, this lot had different variants, (chrome, tall/short bottles, different plates), again comprised of Sylvania/Westinghouse/GE, and its the same result for that wave too, consistently rolling the GE tubes the least.  

But that was the beginning and there I had no knowledge that (in the context of the darkvoice amp) there could be synergies with the power tube.  Had I had more flexibility at the time, I might have found a power tube that might have helped the GE's cause somewhat.  Or the fact that it might have been the unusual construction of GE using side getters, that for some reason did not work as well, despite the fact that GE/side getters are considered a great value in other audiophile forums.  All I know is that through 3 waves of tube buying, I came to dislike the GE the most and felt it was a complete waste of money.  So thats how I got to my conclusion.  

Also in fairness, I also do hear above average impressions on GE 5-Star Power Tubes, but i'm not willing to try, at this point in the game.

You're right though, with your pure blind testing, it may be alot more difficult, and if the amp is run with a power tube that actually would complement the GE.  I really do wonder though if the GE side getter just does something to give it away (whether for better or worse).  

And haven't you challenged bcowen already on this?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 4, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> I totally understand with expectation bias.  I also understand the amp/implementation has a lot to do with it as well, where some tube types (brands even) can sound better in one amp, but horrible in the next.  I know I give GE tubes a hard time, but my impressions of them were formed with little bias.  When I bought my amp, I bought like 2 small lots of tubes mostly Sylvania, GE and RCA...very cheap and very available, and only having one power tube (RCA 6AS7G).  I knew nothing about tubes - and my only basis for comparison was with the stock sound (Shuguang 6SN7 on the Darkvoice).  After a good amount of time rolling with them, I found that out of those, I mostly liked the tubes from Sylvania and the RCA (finding out the RCA tubes I had were also Sylvania made).  I ended up buying one more small lot of 6SN7s after another month or so passed.....to the effect, this lot had different variants, (chrome, tall/short bottles, different plates), again comprised of Sylvania/Westinghouse/GE, and its the same result for that wave too, consistently rolling the GE tubes the least.
> 
> But that was the beginning and there I had no knowledge that (in the context of the darkvoice amp) there could be synergies with the power tube.  Had I had more flexibility at the time, I might have found a power tube that might have helped the GE's cause somewhat.  Or the fact that it might have been the unusual construction of GE using side getters, that for some reason did not work as well, despite the fact that GE/side getters are considered a great value in other audiophile forums.  All I know is that through 3 waves of tube buying, I came to dislike the GE the most and felt it was a complete waste of money.  So thats how I got to my conclusion.
> 
> ...


Yes, Bill and I had a wager on his ability to pick a GE tube from a total of eight, and the man was using a Lyr 3 to listen. He did an amazing job and came within one tube of winning the bet. That bet is the only reason I own a bunch of GE's lol.

I was careful to buy tubes with GE dots so I did not get a Ken-Rad by mistake.

Much of my background is in science so if someone tells me they can hear this or that, oftentimes I say great, show me. I thought I was pretty fair in the tubes I sent Bill, among them were a Ken-Rad VT231 black glass, an RCA grey glass, and a Sylvania Bad Boy so it really came down to a couple tubes so I figured I had a 50/50 chance.

This is nothing though, I have made bets with people who tell me they can hear this or that from AC cords or identical lengths of wire and the odds are much more in my favor. 

I did just order a GE VT-231 to add to my Cowen collection.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> Yes, Bill and I had a wager on his ability to pick a GE tube from a total of eight, and the man was using a Lyr 3 to listen. He did an amazing job and came within one tube of winning the bet. That bet is the only reason I own a bunch of GE's lol.
> 
> I was careful to buy tubes with GE dots so I did not get a Ken-Rad by mistake.
> 
> ...



I believe it!   Alot of people are all talk and few actually has the ears to really discern the minutia details in audio...much akin like someone having perfect pitch.   

Regarding GE/Ken-Rad, when GE bought Ken-Rad in the mid 40s they only kept the Ken-Rad designs for a little while until they abandoned it for the side getter design (to my understanding).  



Paladin79 said:


> Here is an interesting pair of tubes but I see no dots. These are identical to some Canadian Marconi tubes I own.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...005227?hash=item2d159af56b:g:2GEAAOSwGQJfRIIh



That is a very interesting find on those Canadian GEs.  To me, those are strikingly looking like CBS/Hytron 6SN7s.  Which are pretty nice sounding tubes.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> This is nothing though, I have made bets with people who tell me they can hear this or that from AC cords or identical lengths of wire and the odds are much more in my favor.



You must be rolling in steak dinners and various cash prizes!  + 🥩 +  💰



> I did just order a GE VT-231 to add to my Cowen collection.



@bcowen that must be an honor, like having a hospital wing or library named after you!


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> @bcowen that must be an honor, like having a hospital wing or library named after you!



LOL!  Depends on perspective, I guess.  With GE tubes populating the library, it's kinda like having a dumpster named for you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I did just order a GE VT-231 to add to my Cowen collection.



You actually paid money (_real _money?) for a GE?  Or did you trade a shipping-damaged cable or something for it?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You actually paid money (_real _money?) for a GE?  Or did you trade a shipping-damaged cable or something for it?


Well people were talking GE tubes and I started looking at some on Ebay lol. At least I never said I have stopped buying tubes then did this.

I am hoping it is really a Ken Rad, I really could not see any dots on the tube.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Depends on perspective, I guess.  With GE tubes populating the library, it's kinda like having a dumpster named for you.


You are lucky I do not still have an El Camino to will to you, I offered it to my son but he just said he would push it off a cliff. I asked him once what color I should paint it, and he said invisible. A russian card partner thought it was the coolest thing ever, but she had not been in the country too long and I am not sure Russia is known for cars anyway.

I named my new amp after you Bill, once I get some decent tubes in it, I will change the name.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I named my new amp after you Bill, once I get some decent tubes in it, I will change the name.



ROFL!  And thus the phrase "damning with faint praise" is applied in a sentence.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> You must be rolling in steak dinners and various cash prizes!  + 🥩 +  💰
> 
> In this case it was more about seeing how well Bill could do, I spent far more than a steak dinner and bottle of wine to set up the challenge lol.


----------



## LoryWiv

Slade01 said:


> I totally understand with expectation bias.  I also understand the amp/implementation has a lot to do with it as well, where some tube types (brands even) can sound better in one amp, but horrible in the next.  I know I give GE tubes a hard time, but my impressions of them were formed with little bias.  When I bought my amp, I bought like 2 small lots of tubes mostly Sylvania, GE and RCA...very cheap and very available, and only having one power tube (RCA 6AS7G).  I knew nothing about tubes - and my only basis for comparison was with the stock sound (Shuguang 6SN7 on the Darkvoice).  After a good amount of time rolling with them, I found that out of those, I mostly liked the tubes from Sylvania and the RCA (finding out the RCA tubes I had were also Sylvania made).  I ended up buying one more small lot of 6SN7s after another month or so passed.....to the effect, this lot had different variants, (chrome, tall/short bottles, different plates), again comprised of Sylvania/Westinghouse/GE, and its the same result for that wave too, consistently rolling the GE tubes the least.
> 
> But that was the beginning and there I had no knowledge that (in the context of the darkvoice amp) there could be synergies with the power tube.  Had I had more flexibility at the time, I might have found a power tube that might have helped the GE's cause somewhat.  Or the fact that it might have been the unusual construction of GE using side getters, that for some reason did not work as well, despite the fact that GE/side getters are considered a great value in other audiophile forums.  All I know is that through 3 waves of tube buying, I came to dislike the GE the most and felt it was a complete waste of money.  So thats how I got to my conclusion.
> 
> ...


One moment, let me finish buttoning up my Kevlar vest. OK, ready now: Early in my journey with Feliks-Audio-Elise GE 7581A's were recommended and I've used them often as drivers in Elise with 6V6 to 6SN7 adapters from @Deyan. I like them better than many other drivers I've tried, punchy bass, clean mids and decent top end extension. They are warm overall but not "gooey" and with a more analytic, neutral output tube they work well in rotation. So yes, as you point out synergy matters quite a lot and sometimes they fit the "Bill". (@bcowen you take on beating on this thread....I can lend you my kevlar once I'm done with it.)


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> (@bcowen you take on beating on this thread....I can lend you my kevlar once I'm done with it.)



  It might be better if I just bought it from you.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 4, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> One moment, let me finish buttoning up my Kevlar vest. OK, ready now: Early in my journey with Feliks-Audio-Elise GE 7581A's were recommended and I've used them often as drivers in Elise with 6V6 to 6SN7 adapters from @Deyan. I like them better than many other drivers I've tried, punchy bass, clean mids and decent top end extension. They are warm overall but not "gooey" and with a more analytic, neutral output tube they work well in rotation. So yes, as you point out synergy matters quite a lot and sometimes they fit the "Bill". (@bcowen you take on beating on this thread....I can lend you my kevlar once I'm done with it.)


Finally an honest man lol.    I am on your side whatever you say LoryWiv, I may need satsumas again next year.
I should have probably asked if anyone could get a good deal on Camus XO cognac but the year is not over yet.

Come to think of it, Bill sent me some GE tubes for a Cary amp, I have given him an Incubus amp and a 1963 Melz 1578. He may have given me other things but I am not counting those right now.


----------



## highstream (Dec 5, 2020)

If anyone would like a Melz 1578 pair, I'm going to pass along the NOS 1963 pair, pins resoldered, I purchased from Paladin79 last month. Assuming Tom had them plugged in for 24 hrs before sending, they have 260 hours of burn in, the good majority idle (I keep track of hours during burn in). If interested, PM privately for photos and particulars.

Follow up: Sold


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 4, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Finally an honest man lol.    I am on your side whatever you say LoryWiv, I may need satsumas again next year.
> I should have probably asked if anyone could get a good deal on Camus XO cognac but the year is not over yet.
> 
> Come to think of it, Bill sent me some GE tubes for a Cary amp, I have given him an Incubus amp and a 1963 Melz 1578. He may have given me other things but I am not counting those right now.



I don't know why, but you should lend LoryWiv that El Camino to load up all those satsumas.  That would be a road trip.  Kids these days don't know classics.😆  Similarly, if you haven't taken a spin on the rear jumpseats of a Subaru Brat, you haven't lived. LOL.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Come to think of it, Bill sent me some GE tubes for a Cary amp...



I sent those as a joke.  Figures you'd actually _like_ them.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 4, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> I don't know why, but you should lend LoryWiv that El Camino to load up all those satsumas.  That would be a road trip.  Kids these days don't know classics.😆  Similarly, if you haven't taken a spin on the rear jumpseats of a Subaru Brat, you haven't lived. LOL.


Wait a minute are you listening to a Darkvoice as your primary amp for 6sn7's, and with Focals?
If so I may have to send you a loaner amp in the spring. 




bcowen said:


> I sent those as a joke.  Figures you'd actually _like_ them.


I know, I know and seriously I have enjoyed all the tubes you sent. I have to rework the Cary one of these days. The Cowen will be in its place for a little while.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know, I know and seriously I have enjoyed all the tubes you sent. I have to rework the Cary one of these days. The Cowen will be in its place for a little while.



LOL!  I'd send you the Super Amp to use as a stand-in, but I'd probably never see it again after comparing to the SLA.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'd send you the Super Amp to use as a stand-in, but I'd probably never see it again after comparing to the SLA.


I could send you a Cary phono preamp as a security deposit.   

Anyway, getting back to tubes. I ordered assorted VT-231's this morn so I may have those to discuss one day soon. I need something new to listen to while I await another solid plate Melz from Russia.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I could send you a Cary phono preamp as a security deposit.



OK, deal.  LOL!  

It probably needs electrolytic replacement surgery too.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> OK, deal.  LOL!
> 
> It probably needs electrolytic replacement surgery too.


You always keep the high ground advantage.


----------



## Paladin79

I just noticed on a headphone site that someone is selling a Lyr 3 with four Foton tubes, some of which have the tubes re-soldered. It appears more and more people are learning about the solder in some of the Russian tube pins.


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Besides duplicity, what do the dots signify?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> It is date code and I like the way you mentioned GE 6sn7's. Some of their power tubes are not too bad.
> 
> 
> Now one would think you could easily tell a GE from other brands in a blind listen right? Say eight tubes? If I was less busy I might set up something like that and I do have a lot of GE tubes stored away in my shop, various years. I believe the box is marked Cowen for some reason.   If the tubes are not identifiable there is no expectation bias and suddenly what you heard about a GE or a Sylvania Bad Boy or a Tung Sol might not be so discernible.
> ...


This looks nothing like any GTB tubes that I'm aware of.. most are plated, talk about base swapping..wow.. and no GE.. it's fully written out. Anyone gonna grab these?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 4, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> This looks nothing like any GTB tubes that I'm aware of.. most are plated, talk about base swapping..wow.. and no GE.. it's fully written out. Anyone gonna grab these?


I believe they are Canadian GE's, I have Marconi's made in Canada that look identical. You have a Marconi that is pure US GE. I am not going to grab those but I did order a GE VT-231 for the heck of it. 

The Marconi's I have are ok, but nothing special as best I recall.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> This looks nothing like any GTB tubes that I'm aware of.. most are plated, talk about base swapping..wow.. and no GE.. it's fully written out. Anyone gonna grab these?



I'm telling you...look up the cbs/hytron gtb tubes.  I think they are a ringer.


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> I'm telling you...look up the cbs/hytron gtb tubes.  I think they are a ringer.


CBS/Hytron do look the same except the ones I found are two hole plates. The Canadian Marconi and GE are three hole.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> CBS/Hytron do look the same except the ones I found are two hole plates. The Canadian Marconi and GE are three hole.



Good eyes.  The only other tube i've seen similar construction to those tubes were from Westinghouse.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I believe they are Canadian GE's, I have Marconi's made in Canada that look identical. You have a Marconi that is pure US GE. I am not going to grab those but I did order a GE VT-231 for the heck of it.
> 
> The Marconi's I have are ok, but nothing special as best I recall.


GE VT-231..oh my.. Ken Rad?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> GE VT-231..oh my.. Ken Rad?


Too early to tell but one can hope.


----------



## LoryWiv

Slade01 said:


> I don't know why, but you should lend LoryWiv that El Camino to load up all those satsumas. That would be a road trip. Kids these days don't know classics.😆  Similarly, if you haven't taken a spin on the rear jumpseats of a Subaru Brat, you haven't lived. LOL.


I ride in style, Tesla Model X, Range Rover or the satsumas stay in sunny California. I suppose we can make a Jeep Grand Cherokee work if I ride back with a box of non-GE tubes.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> I ride in style, Tesla Model X, Range Rover or the satsumas stay in sunny California. I suppose we can make a Jeep Grand Cherokee work if I ride back with a box of non-GE tubes.



It would be more fun if you made @Slade01 ride _*in*_ the back holding a box of GE tubes the entire trip.


----------



## LoryWiv (Dec 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> It would be more fun if you made @Slade01 ride _*in*_ the back holding a box of GE tubes the entire trip.


I'm in. Maybe we can trade the GE's for snacks at a truck stop along the way.


----------



## Paladin79

My new goal is to get @bcowen away from his "not buying any more tubes" stance. I just need to find a couple very nice Ken-Rads that are branded GE to peak his interest. Not only do I want to get him to buy another tube but it must be a GE tube.  I may lend one out just for added peer pressure.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My new goal is to get @bcowen away from his "not buying any more tubes" stance. I just need to find a couple very nice Ken-Rads that are branded GE to peak his interest. Not only do I want to get him to buy another tube but it must be a GE tube.  I may lend one out just for added peer pressure.



If someone wants to send me a GE tube to throw away for them, I'd be happy to help....just 'cause I'm a nice guy and all.  But Covid-19 will be eradicated, global warming solved, and warp-speed space travel part of daily life before I actually spend money on a GE.  Not that I have anything against GE tubes, of course...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If someone wants to send me a GE tube to throw away for them, I'd be happy to help....just 'cause I'm a nice guy and all.  But Covid-19 will be eradicated, global warming solved, and warp-speed space travel part of daily life before I actually spend money on a GE.  Not that I have anything against GE tubes, of course...


Two out of three was not so bad for Meatloaf so I figure you would settle for .5 out of 3. Just wait till I send out a GE; coerce, bribe, cajole, and get superb unbiased opinions of how wonderful the tube is. By the time I am done, I might even want one, as a curiosity.  

Seriously though, for the last year my local group and I have purchased examples of the best 6sn7's around so I am running out of ideas on other tubes to add. Maybe there is an exceptional Ken-RAD stamped GE we do not have, or a rare Melz I have yet to discover.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Two out of three was not so bad for Meatloaf so I figure you would settle for .5 out of 3. Just wait till I send out a GE; coerce, bribe, cajole, and get superb unbiased opinions of how wonderful the tube is. By the time I am done, I might even want one, as a curiosity.
> 
> Seriously though, for the last year my local group and I have purchased examples of the best 6sn7's around so I am running out of ideas on other tubes to add. Maybe there is an exceptional Ken-RAD stamped GE we do not have, or a rare Melz I have yet to discover.


I got some Baldwin (Sylvania) tubes coming in (and not expecting to much) on a recommendation from a Facebook page I'm following. Just to hear what these people are talking about.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I got some Baldwin (Sylvania) tubes coming in (and not expecting to much) on a recommendation from a Facebook page I'm following. Just to hear what these people are talking about.


I have seen those, unless they are different internally than other Sylvanias we have an abundance of those. And GEC, Mullard, Tung Sol, Brimar,Osram, British Marconi's etc. We are trying to limit tubes that are really close to one another. A 58 Melz solid plate will be used but maybe not a 63 1578 since they are so close in sound. Sylvania 2 hole and 3 hole black plate probably fall into that as well. This allows for equivalents as well, 6j5, 7a4, L63's (?).


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I got some Baldwin (Sylvania) tubes coming in (and not expecting to much) on a recommendation from a Facebook page I'm following. Just to hear what these people are talking about.



You never know, so don't let _negative_ expectation bias get in the way. Not too long ago I bought a tall bottle Sylvania 7N7 for $5 and didn't expect much. Turned out differently. Then some particular Russian 6N8S's that I expected to be sterile and solid-state sounding and were quite the opposite. Then a tube type that had never impressed me from a manufacturer that had never been my cup of tea (Brimar 6BQ7A) and.....damn.  Perhaps one day there will even be a GE that impresses me, but I'm not _expecting_ it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 5, 2020)

bcowen said:


> You never know, so don't let _negative_ expectation bias get in the way. Not too long ago I bought a tall bottle Sylvania 7N7 for $5 and didn't expect much. Turned out differently. Then some particular Russian 6N8S's that I expected to be sterile and solid-state sounding and were quite the opposite. Then a tube type that had never impressed me from a manufacturer that had never been my cup of tea (Brimar 6BQ7A) and.....damn.  Perhaps one day there will even be a GE that impresses me, but I'm not _expecting_ it.


You are hard to please. No sense sending you something I just started. I like to keep my skills sharp when not making amp cabinets.


----------



## Tom-s

bcowen said:


> You never know, so don't let _negative_ expectation bias get in the way.
> Perhaps one day there will even be a GE that impresses me, but I'm not _expecting_ it.



Couldn't agree more! 


Hmmm.. 



O, look what i found in the collection! 


I can't figure out the brand..


@bcowen I might just have a few more NOS/NIB sealed beauties!


----------



## leftside

JKDJedi said:


> I got some Baldwin (Sylvania) tubes coming in (and not expecting to much) on a recommendation from a Facebook page I'm following. Just to hear what these people are talking about.


I think you're going to be in for a pleasant surprise. Sure, the "premium" tubes have now gone up in price a lot, but if you search for 6SN7 on eBay you'll still see great tubes at bargain prices.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 5, 2020)

Tom-s said:


> Couldn't agree more!
> 
> 
> Hmmm..
> ...



Those are some pretty sweet looking tubes!  But if that 43-LO at the bottom signifies 1943, those are KenRads (as you know).  Are there any etched dots on the glass?  I'm finding it sooooooo hard to believe GE ever made a tube that pretty.  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

leftside said:


> I think you're going to be in for a pleasant surprise. Sure, the "premium" tubes have now gone up in price a lot, but if you search for 6SN7 on eBay you'll still see great tubes at bargain prices.


I hope so, I've never heard a Sylvania 6SN7GTB and most out (ebay) there are low tested. The page I'm following are saying Baldwin asked Sylvania for the top spec tubes for their organs. If these test like their sticker is showing...


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys my valve drivers are as follows:

Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231
Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231
RCA 6sn7gt vt231 (gray glass)
Ken-Rad 6sn7gt vt231 (Clear glass)
Melz 1578 (1969)
2x GEC L63 (straight glass).

What other valves could you indicate to me, but that were not somewhat redundant.

I was thinking of going after Sylvania 6j5gt, Tung-Sol bgrt and Brimar 6sn7gt to complete the team, but I don't know if they would be valves that would complement the others and if they would be redundant valves.

Does anyone get empowered?


----------



## bl4scott

leftside said:


> I think you're going to be in for a pleasant surprise. Sure, the "premium" tubes have now gone up in price a lot, but if you search for 6SN7 on eBay you'll still see great tubes at bargain prices.


Is there a easy way to know which are 'great' and know the prices are fair for someone that is new to rolling?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 6, 2020)

Great has to do with personal preferences and I like to get as many opinions as I can in blind listening to see how a tube might rate.
You can always ask on here if folks have had dealings with specific sellers as far as fairness and accuracy.
On Ebay I generally look at seller approval ratings as well as test results. I would also recommend that if you try for a certain tube, look for as many sellers as you can because prices do vary a lot.  Some sellers offer refunds if you are not satisfied with a particular tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Guys my valve drivers are as follows:
> 
> Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231
> Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231
> ...


That would be the Tung Sol VT-231. the icing on the cake.  and no it's not the same as the Sylvania there. Sorry.


----------



## leftside

bl4scott said:


> Is there a easy way to know which are 'great' and know the prices are fair for someone that is new to rolling?


Start here to see prices from a premium seller with premium prices to match:
http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm

If any of those tubes catch your eye, see if you can find them on eBay and compare prices. You might find eBay to be cheaper, but sellers like Brent have a great reputation and hence the higher prices. Obviously, one of the downsides of sites like the one from Brent are the lack of pictures. eBay prices are all over the place, which can also make it hard to compare prices.

It is tough starting out buying tubes as there are so many different variations from many different manufacturers - and the labels on the tubes sometimes don't guarantee that those tubes were actually made by the stated manufacturer. As a very rough guide, the earlier tube types with black plate and earlier getters like spade, foil and cup are going to fetch higher prices than D getters which in turn will fetch higher prices than later tubes with O getters. The tubes may or may not sound better.... but you'll run up against tube collectors for the earlier tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

leftside said:


> Start here to see prices from a premium seller with premium prices to match:
> http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
> 
> If any of those tubes catch your eye, see if you can find them on eBay and compare prices. You might find eBay to be cheaper, but sellers like Brent have a great reputation and hence the higher prices. Obviously, one of the downsides of sites like the one from Brent are the lack of pictures. eBay prices are all over the place, which can also make it hard to compare prices.
> ...


This .., the Mother Of aLL Rabbit Holes....


----------



## leftside

SHIMACM said:


> Guys my valve drivers are as follows:
> 
> Sylvania 6sn7gt vt231
> Raytheon 6sn7gt vt231
> ...


If you're already buying 6J5/L63, then that's the direction I'd keep going:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...6c5-12j5-6p5-etc.934653/page-62#post-16020435

It looks like you're interested in some quite expensive tubes. If that's the route you want to go, then you should also consider the Mullard ECC33 and ECC32 if your amp can take them.


----------



## bcowen

This is NOT comforting.  Apparently the USPS has a facility _they_ don't even know about.  Perhaps it's close enough to Area 51 it got annexed?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> This is NOT comforting.  Apparently the USPS has a facility _they_ don't even know about.  Perhaps it's close enough to Area 51 it got annexed?


And what do we have coming in? Another _empty_ box


----------



## bl4scott

leftside said:


> Start here to see prices from a premium seller with premium prices to match:
> http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
> 
> If any of those tubes catch your eye, see if you can find them on eBay and compare prices. You might find eBay to be cheaper, but sellers like Brent have a great reputation and hence the higher prices. Obviously, one of the downsides of sites like the one from Brent are the lack of pictures. eBay prices are all over the place, which can also make it hard to compare prices.
> ...



Thanks Leftside for the information.  I am currently running a Schiit Modius into the Vali 2 (first tube amp!!) 

So far I have acquired:
EH 6922 - pretty bright
JJ Gold Pin E88CC - better than the EH 
Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB New Prod - much better than the two above
Sylvania Jan-CHS 6SN7WGT - so far my favorite
RCA JAN 6SN7GT VT 231 Test NOS "Meatball" Black Plates - waiting delivery but from all I have read, I hope it lives up to all of the hype.

As you can see, I am moving in the direction of more expensive tubes, but I would love to get recommendations of moderate priced ones as well.  I have my eye a Ken-Rad VT-231 and Ratheon VT-231 but unsure which one and why.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And what do we have coming in? Another _empty_ box



LOL!  No, it's a NOS 1951 GEC laptop.   


Seriously, its the copper plate for a secret thing I'm modding.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  No, it's a NOS 1951 GEC laptop.
> 
> 
> Seriously, its the copper plate for a secret thing I'm modding.



I bet I can guess the secret.😎


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I bet I can guess the secret.😎



Bet you can't.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Bet you can't.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 6, 2020)

...


----------



## JTbbb

So far I have acquired:
EH 6922 - pretty bright
JJ Gold Pin E88CC - better than the EH
Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB New Prod - much better than the two above
Sylvania Jan-CHS 6SN7WGT - so far my favorite
RCA JAN 6SN7GT VT 231 Test NOS "Meatball" Black Plates - waiting delivery but from all I have read, I hope it lives up to all of the hype.

As you can see, I am moving in the direction of more expensive tubes, but I would love to get recommendations of moderate priced ones as well.  I have my eye a Ken-Rad VT-231 and Ratheon VT-231 but unsure which one and why.
[/QUOTE]

As I can see 😀. You are going down the rabbit hole and will surely end up with both 😂.


----------



## bl4scott

Ain't that the truth - Yet another expensive habit.


----------



## Paladin79

I just received a GE VT-231 that has a different getter and grey ladder plates instead of black, otherwise it looks the same as some Ken-Rads I own.
Oh and different top mica on the VT 231.  Bass seems very good, but this will take some serious listening before I can form a judgement. Upper mids seem quirky.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I just received a GE VT-231 that has a different getter and grey ladder plates instead of black, otherwise it looks the same as some Ken-Rads I own.
> Oh and different top mica on the VT 231.  Bass seems very good, but this will take some serious listening before I can form a judgement. Upper mids seem quirky.



Is your GE VT-231 - does it have the side getter?


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I just received a GE VT-231 that has a different getter and grey ladder plates instead of black, otherwise it looks the same as some Ken-Rads I own.
> Oh and different top mica on the VT 231.  Bass seems very good, but this will take some serious listening before I can form a judgement. Upper mids seem quirky.


Going back to the smooth plate 58 Melz, I have installed it into an original Saga and am listening to it. My initial impression is remarkable transparency. It is difficult for me to discern a difference between the tube and passive modes of the preamp, at least with the program material I have tried to date. Also, the tube is dead quiet in the Saga, and recall that the original Saga has an AC filament supply. I will continue listening this weekend.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 12, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> Is your GE VT-231 - does it have the side getter?


bottom, no dots of course both tubes in the photo have the 188-5 so it was after GE bought Ken-Rad but most likely kept using Ken Rad parts.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Going back to the smooth plate 58 Melz, I have installed it into an original Saga and am listening to it. My initial impression is remarkable transparency. It is difficult for me to discern a difference between the tube and passive modes of the preamp, at least with the program material I have tried to date. Also, the tube is dead quiet in the Saga, and recall that the original Saga has an AC filament supply. I will continue listening this weekend.


I experience the same thing in Incubus amps, dead quiet with no signal. I just hope another I bought lives up to the shiny black plate, I will know more in January.


----------



## sqitis

Wow what a thread! Good work to all of you on your contribution to this thread. I have reached out to a couple of you and I would like to personally thank @Paladin79 & @bcowen for all their help and advice! Lets keep the thread going!!


----------



## Slade01 (Dec 12, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> bottom, no dots of course both tubes in the photo have the 188-5 so it was after GE bought Ken-Rad but most likely kept using Ken Rad parts.


Thank you.  Im trying to figure out when ge started to abandon the Ken rad designs and whether it was gradual or they just flipped the switched to their side getter designs.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Wow what a thread! Good work to all of you on your contribution to this thread. I have reached out to a couple of you and I would like to personally thank @Paladin79 & @bcowen for all their help and advice! Lets keep the thread going!!


My advice is to avoid @bcowen at all costs.   On occasion he can have his lucid moments though. Thanks again for the beer Sqitis, the Anchor brewing special ale is my favorite so far.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> My advice is to avoid @bcowen at all costs.   On occasion he can have his lucid moments though. Thanks again for the beer Sqitis, the Anchor brewing special ale is my favorite so far.



No problem! I picked up some more special ones yesterday and will bring you some on the next trip. Yeah my other audio friend loves this years batch of the Anchor!


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Thank you.  Im trying to figure out when ge started to abandon then Ken rad designs and whether it was gradual or they just flipped the switched to their side getter designs.


I do believe the ladder plates stayed as they moved to the side getter judging by tubes in my possession. Gibosi has a far better grasp on GE tube history than I can recall.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 12, 2020)

sqitis said:


> No problem! I picked up some more special ones yesterday and will you some on the next trip. Yeah my other audio friend loves this years batch of the Anchor!


As well he should. One of these days I will have to build you something like this as a thank you. First though I need to get a loaner amp out there, and possibly help Bill with a cabinet for a Darkvoice amp.


.


----------



## sqitis

Oh I just dropped in the Foton and it's a funner tube than the NU Black glass, just more information and excitement. That's my initial thoughts so far anyways......


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> As well he should. One of these days I will have to build you something like this as a thank you. First though I need to get a loaner amp out there.



Oh I'd be in heaven with that piece!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My advice is to avoid @bcowen at all costs.



That would be my advice too.  Although if you continue buying GE tubes, we're gonna have to add you to the list.  Or drag you kicking and screaming to the nearest ear doctor.


----------



## highstream

I decided to hold off commenting about the Melz 1538, 1963 version, until it had sold. As so often occurs, my experience is apparently in the minority. The main component parts of my system are a heavily modified Oppo 203 (digital only), a Lampizator Atlantic TRP dac (tube), a Supratek Chardonnay preamp and ATC SCM19A active floorstanders. The 1578 was used in the preamp. I found the Melz to have strong PRAT and great transparency, the best I had heard to that time (the two pairs of late 1940's-early '50's Sylvania 6SN7's I've been listening to for the past week have even a bit more of the latter, and a more holographic sound). What I found lacking with the Melz was that it was decidedly on the cool side of modestly warm, hence leaving me listening more to the "sound" than the music; on the thin side without much body and hence air; and a bit laid back in a way that often felt passive. I found myself sometimes having to turn up the volume to get sufficient midrange into the room, especially with singers (I tried moving the speakers). To get the Melz over the hump for me, I tried 10 rectifiers, but none seemed to bring them into my ballpark while maintaining the Melz's strengths. My reference against the 1578 was and remains the Sylvania 6F8G (and USAF 596 rectifier). 

Something I've noticed with main components, cables and accessories including tubes, is that those with the greatest clarity, details and PRAT are rarely if ever associated with modest warmth and body. Not being electronically knowledgeable, I don't really understand why, although I often imagine that at least some of the highly expensive gear, that which is way beyond my means, surely must have overcome the gap.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> As well he should. One of these days I will have to build you something like this as a thank you. First though I need to get a loaner amp out there, and possibly help Bill with a cabinet for a Darkvoice amp.
> 
> 
> .


That is an uncommonly handsome piece, @Paladin79. Really beautiful, like something from a 17th century harpsichord cabinet.


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> That is an uncommonly handsome piece, @Paladin79. Really beautiful, like something from a 17th century harpsichord cabinet.


Thanks Lory, it is for a family member who missed four years of school because of war yet managed to get her PhD in a timely manner.  I am just practicing in case I make something for Cowen.🙂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That would be my advice too.  Although if you continue buying GE tubes, we're gonna have to add you to the list.  Or drag you kicking and screaming to the nearest ear doctor.


Wait!! I am supposed to listen to the tubes?
I was just using them in class A amps as cat warmers.

As far as 1578’s one has to listen to those from the 70’s and 80’s to start to understand why the 63 stands out. It is rating extremely well in blind listening, it was barely beaten out by the 58 solid plate.
We look at 25 criteria and final appraisal is done by a group. Both are toward the top compared to all 6SN7 equivalents made, naturally any individual’s MMV. I mainly use headphone amps to rate tubes, and they are amps of my own design and preferences. 😷


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks Lory, it is for a family member who missed four years of school because of war yet managed to get her PhD in a timely manner.  I am just practicing in case I make something for Cowen.🙂


If you do, be sure that it includes a GE logo.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Oh I'd be in heaven with that piece!


finishing two of these today, long baths in food grade mineral oil.



I may do something with purple heart wood on a loaner Incubus amp. I want Sam6550A, Lory, and others to hear one sometime. I do add preamp out but something like this is never as good as an individual preamp built for that purpose. Sqitis will hear my personal incubus with one of the 58 solid plate Melz tubes and possibly a bottom getter Chatham 6as7g when Covid conditions improve. Maybe next fall?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> If you do, be sure that it includes a GE logo.


GE logo with dot date code, only the best for Bill.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> finishing two of these today, long baths in food grade mineral oil.
> 
> 
> I may do something with purple heart wood on a loaner Incubus amp. I want Sam6550A, Lory, and others to hear one sometime. I do add preamp out but something like this is never as good as an individual preamp built for that purpose. Sqitis will hear my personal incubus with one of the 58 solid plate Melz tubes and possibly a bottom getter Chatham 6as7g when Covid conditions improve. Maybe next fall?


Oh man I can't wait!!


----------



## sqitis (Dec 12, 2020)

Ok @Paladin79 those Foton are fun and very good! Which years did you send me? Highly underrated!

Ok I think I see it...57 looks like the number on the tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 12, 2020)

sqitis said:


> Ok @Paladin79 those Foton are fun and very good! Which years did you send me? Highly underrated!


57's, were what I had handy. If you would like a matched quad of those, I may well be able to do that. If I have any trouble I bet Sir Cowen Esquire can help, he has more Fotons than Russia possesses at this point. The date code is to the lower right of the rhombus. I can make sure the pins are re-soldered for you, they generally need it.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> 57's, were what I had handy. If you would like a matched quad of those, I may well be able to do that. If I have any trouble I bet Sir Cowen Esquire can help, he has more Fotons than Russia possesses at this point. The date code is to the lower right of the rhombus.



Found it! Is that the sweet year? I see some lower 50's with ribs but only 60's with no ribs on Ebay. Mighty fine they are for the cost!


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Found it! Is that the sweet year? I see some lower 50's with ribs but only 60's with no ribs on Ebay. Mighty fine they are for the cost!


Anything from 51-58 should be fine when re-soldered, Bill is the resident expert on these. Buy the ribbed plates when you can, I probably only own 20 or so ribbed plate. They are not my favorite Russian tube but the prices are still very low so buy them up while you can. I can teach you soldering technique on those one day if you are interested.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> If you do, be sure that it includes a GE logo.



You're mean.  What did I ever do to deserve _that_?  

That was a rhetorical question.  We'd need a new thread (perhaps a new website) if you're thinking about starting a list...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> finishing two of these today, long baths in food grade mineral oil.
> 
> 
> I may do something with purple heart wood on a loaner Incubus amp. I want Sam6550A, Lory, and others to hear one sometime. I do add preamp out but something like this is never as good as an individual preamp built for that purpose. Sqitis will hear my personal incubus with one of the 58 solid plate Melz tubes and possibly a bottom getter Chatham 6as7g when Covid conditions improve. Maybe next fall?



That is like totally gorgeous, Tom!  _Very _nice.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That is like totally gorgeous, Tom!  _Very _nice.


I tapered the ends so you can flip the cutting boards easily when switching from vegetables to proteins or vice versa.

Ok a rough guess, how many fifties Fotons do you own right now? I am going to look for a matched quad for Sqitis to try and if I do not have them I bet you do lol.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Found it! Is that the sweet year? I see some lower 50's with ribs but only 60's with no ribs on Ebay. Mighty fine they are for the cost!


if you want to try a quad of 65's I will gift them to you. I need to check under the refrigerator tomorrow, I usually give them to Finnegan when he is looking for a toy, there might be some under the refrigerator.

Otherwise I have a couple 52's, 3 53's, 2 54's, 1 56 and 1 58 I found with so far.


----------



## sqitis (Dec 12, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> if you want to try a quad of 65's I will gift them to you. I need to check under the refrigerator tomorrow, I usually give them to Finnegan when he is looking for a toy, there might be some under the refrigerator.
> 
> Otherwise I have a couple 52's, 3 53's, 2 54's, 1 56 and 1 58 I found with so far.


Damn you can have my knock off's for Finnegan if needed or hell even my EH.......LOL I'd definily like to hear early 50 with ribs to compare to these 57.

I'd like to try Bill's recommendation and go with 4 CBS 5692 in the gain and 2 Foton or Melz in the buffer and see what kind of magic they can create paired together.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Damn you can have my knock off's for Finnegan if needed or hell even my EH.......LOL I'd definily like to hear early 50 with ribs to compare to these 57.


That is easily done. I need to finish up some rosewood boxes then I will see what matches up well, maybe late tomorrow, Monday at the latest. I may throw in a few Satsumas if they arrive in time.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I tapered the ends so you can flip the cutting boards easily when switching from vegetables to proteins or vice versa.
> 
> Ok a rough guess, how many fifties Fotons do you own right now? I am going to look for a matched quad for Sqitis to try and if I do not have them I bet you do lol.



I only have a couple, but I haven't resoldered them yet.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> I only have a couple, but I haven't resoldered them yet.


Holy shi@@, can I come over and root through them>....LOL Just kidding! Man I'd be in tube heaven with that batch!!! WOW


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> That is easily done. I need to finish up some rosewood boxes then I will see what matches up well, maybe late tomorrow, Monday at the latest. I may throw in a few Satsumas if they arrive in time.


No rush and thank you again for all the help! You guys rock!


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> I only have a couple, but I haven't resoldered them yet.


That never ceases to impress! Mother Russia must have designated you and your collection a natural treasure !


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I only have a couple, but I haven't resoldered them yet.


The numbers Bill has on the boxes could change a bit with re-solder, I can always help with that. Bill even has a column of 65's.


----------



## sqitis

Where do I send PP or my check??? LOL I'll send my addy as well......


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The numbers Bill has on the boxes could change a bit with re-solder, I can always help with that. Bill even has a column of 65's.



Why would you resolder the boxes?

LOL...sorry, just couldn't help myself.

I'd be happy to send off any of the '60's. But the '50's are better (to my ears).  But once into the '50's, the difference between the ribbed plates ('51 through part of '56) and the non-ribs (other part of '56 through '59) is much more subtle.  I *think* I could pick between a '50's (rib or not) and a '61 or later version blindly.  But I have NO confidence I could blindly pick _reliably_ between a '50's rib and a '50's non-rib, FWIW.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 12, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Why would you resolder the boxes?
> 
> LOL...sorry, just couldn't help myself.
> 
> I'd be happy to send off any of the '60's. But the '50's are better (to my ears).  But once into the '50's, the difference between the ribbed plates ('51 through part of '56) and the non-ribs (other part of '56 through '59) is much more subtle.  I *think* I could pick between a '50's (rib or not) and a '61 or later version blindly.  But I have NO confidence I could blindly pick _reliably_ between a '50's rib and a '50's non-rib, FWIW.


Careful or Bill will get you started on these:
You will need Loktal to 8 pin sockets. Bill termed them Frankies and won't credit me with the term "Naughty girls" for single triode tubes that look like Bad Boys lol.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> Why would you resolder the boxes?
> 
> LOL...sorry, just couldn't help myself.
> 
> I'd be happy to send off any of the '60's. But the '50's are better (to my ears).  But once into the '50's, the difference between the ribbed plates ('51 through part of '56) and the non-ribs (other part of '56 through '59) is much more subtle.  I *think* I could pick between a '50's (rib or not) and a '61 or later version blindly.  But I have NO confidence I could blindly pick _reliably_ between a '50's rib and a '50's non-rib, FWIW.


Now wait, which ones do you prefer...rib or non rib 50's?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 12, 2020)

sqitis said:


> Now wait, which ones do you prefer...rib or non rib 50's?


I believe Bill offered you 60's Fotons, as I said earlier I would gift you some of those, possibly a matched quad. I did locate five so far. Finnegan was holding out.

I can most likely lend you matched pairs of other years.


----------



## FLTWS

#17 NC just pounded #10 Miami.62 to 26.


----------



## sqitis

FLTWS said:


> #17 NC just pounded #10 Miami.62 to 26.


Go Heels!


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> I believe Bill offered you 60's Fotons, as I said earlier I would gift you some of those, possibly a matched quad. I did locate five so far. Finnegan was holding out.
> 
> I can most likely lend you matched pairs of other years.


Yea lets try a set of ribbed 50's to compare and then go from there.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Yea lets try a set of ribbed 50's to compare and then go from there.


Consider it done


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Careful or Bill will get you started on these:
> You will need Loktal to 8 pin sockets. Bill termed them Frankies and won't credit me with the term "Naughty girls" for single triode tubes that look like Bad Boys lol.



I'm so pleased to see you giving the Frankies proper love.    

And I bestow full and irrevocable credit to you for Naughty Girls.  No way I'd claim _that_.  LOL!!!


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Now wait, which ones do you prefer...rib or non rib 50's?



I like the ribs a bit better.  But what I was trying to say is that the sonic difference between them and the non-ribbed '50's dates is pretty minor.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> #17 NC just pounded #10 Miami.62 to 26.



Go 'Heels!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Yea lets try a set of ribbed 50's to compare and then go from there.



This isn't a great price but isn't too bad either especially if the seller will combine shipping for a multi-tube purchase. The ribbed versions are becoming more scarce and the price is going up gradually.  Some yahoo on Ebay is even trying to get $50 _a piece_ for them right now (and no, it's not me LOL!).  I've never bought from that seller before, so just an FYI, but he claims they are tested.  Still probably need a pin solder job regardless. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...037764?hash=item4db8ddfd04:g:jsQAAOSwxklfeABj


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> I only have a couple, but I haven't resoldered them yet.



My goodness, how about solder up a pair and sell them to an Englishman for his Euforia 👍😀.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> This isn't a great price but isn't too bad either especially if the seller will combine shipping for a multi-tube purchase. The ribbed versions are becoming more scarce and the price is going up gradually.  Some yahoo on Ebay is even trying to get $50 _a piece_ for them right now (and no, it's not me LOL!).  I've never bought from that seller before, so just an FYI, but he claims they are tested.  Still probably need a pin solder job regardless.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...037764?hash=item4db8ddfd04:g:jsQAAOSwxklfeABj


I got my pair from him and the price went up $2 for what I got mine for. One tested low with grid leakage the other tested ok until I resoldered the pins and that got it up to better measurements. The one I use sounds exceptional. Nice width , no, excellent width, and a highly musical tube. And shipment takes a bit. I forgot I ordered these by the time I got them. So not the best endorsement but order two or more if you do buy from this guy. and resoldering is needed.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 13, 2020)

I am going through some Fotons this morn and listening to a 52  in my Incubus. Great bass but it covers the mids a bit too much for my taste, I am still waiting for the high frequencies, they must be in there somewhere lol. For the price they are wonderful tubes. With some specific music they are very nice. Red Right Hand, The Beast in Me, and the Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove sound very good with this tube. Just not enough balance over the entire spectrum for me, I can hear it and I can measure it. YMMV
The Focal Utopias are a bit of a waste on this tube, HD 650's are fine IMHO.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am going through some Fotons this morn and listening to a 52  in my Incubus. Great bass but it covers the mids a bit too much for my taste, I am still waiting for the high frequencies, they must be in there somewhere lol. For the price they are wonderful tubes. With some specific music they are very nice. Red Right Hand, The Beast in Me, and the Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove sound very good with this tube. Just not enough balance over the entire spectrum for me, I can hear it and I can measure it. YMMV
> The Focal Utopias are a bit of a waste on this tube, HD 650's are fine IMHO.



The mids will improve after some play time IME.  I don't want to re-hash the whole break-in thing, but even after pin resoldering these tubes need at least 10-15 hours of play time (maybe even 20) before everything seems to come together.  At least that's what I hear.  But I totally agree on the relevance of the music in play.  For someone that listens mostly to light classical or small-ensemble jazz or the like, the Fotons would _not_ be my recommendation. For rock and metal (and even much better stuff like Marilyn Manson ), they're a favorite...for me.  Classify them as a boisterous, party-mode tube rather than a delicate, introspective, thoughtful listening type tube, if that makes any sense.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> The mids will improve after some play time IME.  I don't want to re-hash the whole break-in thing, but even after pin resoldering these tubes need at least 10-15 hours of play time (maybe even 20) before everything seems to come together.  At least that's what I hear.  But I totally agree on the relevance of the music in play.  For someone that listens mostly to light classical or small-ensemble jazz or the like, the Fotons would _not_ be my recommendation. For rock and metal (and even much better stuff like Marilyn Manson ), they're a favorite...for me.  Classify them as a boisterous, party-mode tube rather than a delicate, introspective, thoughtful listening type tube, if that makes any sense.


I don't know, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the one Foton I have can best one the most popular VT-231 out there.. and that one tube I'm currently selling..


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The mids will improve after some play time IME.  I don't want to re-hash the whole break-in thing, but even after pin resoldering these tubes need at least 10-15 hours of play time (maybe even 20) before everything seems to come together.  At least that's what I hear.  But I totally agree on the relevance of the music in play.  For someone that listens mostly to light classical or small-ensemble jazz or the like, the Fotons would _not_ be my recommendation. For rock and metal (and even much better stuff like Marilyn Manson ), they're a favorite...for me.  Classify them as a boisterous, party-mode tube rather than a delicate, introspective, thoughtful listening type tube, if that makes any sense.


I have had these around for a while and they have plenty of break in,I measure re-solder then measure again before they first went into one of my amps. I tend to test outgoing Incubus amps with these then switch off for more critical listening. Only after a period of break in would I want to try to match any tube, I have just not matched these yet. The Fotons do always seem to be well balanced tubes after being re-soldered. The exception is the 65's, I doubt I have ten hours on them yet.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> The mids will improve after some play time IME.  I don't want to re-hash the whole break-in thing, but even after pin resoldering these tubes need at least 10-15 hours of play time (maybe even 20) before everything seems to come together.  At least that's what I hear.  But I totally agree on the relevance of the music in play.  For someone that listens mostly to light classical or small-ensemble jazz or the like, the Fotons would _not_ be my recommendation. For rock and metal (and even much better stuff like Marilyn Manson ), they're a favorite...for me.  Classify them as a boisterous, party-mode tube rather than a delicate, introspective, thoughtful listening type tube, if that makes any sense.


That was my thoughts exactly last night after listening to some older rock.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I don't know, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the one Foton I have can best one the most popular VT-231 out there.. and that one tube I'm currently selling..



VT-231's were produced by a lot of manufacturers and with your love of hip hop you mentioned the other day, I can see why you would favor a Foton. 

In my latest version of the Incubus, and the one I built for my self I really worked on an extended top end. Preliminary tests on four identical incubi amps I built over a year ago have the Foton rating very well on bass, decent on mids, and fairly low on treble. That being said they may make the final 52 tube cutoff for a large blind listen. They are a fun tube but I am used to treble that has no ceiling, that just drifts higher and higher then slowly fades. Bill has an early version, you have one that is close to my final version.

Tubes rate higher in some areas and lower in others, occasionally a tube can be found that does well across the board. I also value the opinion of many people, that is why I sent the solid plate Melz around. It is why I sent a couple loaner Incubus amps to people I know from here. When all the tubes are listened to blind and rated blind by a group of vary talented listeners, I am more apt to pay attention. I have participated in many of these listening sessions but now we lean on those who have not lost as much high frequency response as folks over 50.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> The mids will improve after some play time IME.  I don't want to re-hash the whole break-in thing, but even after pin resoldering these tubes need at least 10-15 hours of play time (maybe even 20) before everything seems to come together.  At least that's what I hear.  But I totally agree on the relevance of the music in play.  For someone that listens mostly to light classical or small-ensemble jazz or the like, the Fotons would _not_ be my recommendation. For rock and metal (and even much better stuff like Marilyn Manson ), they're a favorite...for me.  Classify them as a boisterous, party-mode tube rather than a delicate, introspective, thoughtful listening type tube, if that makes any sense.



Surprisingly. it does make sense.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> Surprisingly. it does make sense.



Which?  That the statement makes sense, or I'm making sense?  Assuming it's the former....


----------



## FLTWS

Not sure, now I'm confused!


----------



## Paladin79

I just came across a Bendix 6sn7GTA when searching for Fotons. Luckily it was made by Sylvania and not GE. Short body chrome dome with what some call winged plates.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I just came across a Bendix 6sn7GTA when searching for Fotons. Luckily it was made by Sylvania and not GE. Short body chrome dome with what some call winged plates.


Pics or it didn't happen, no really, what is a Bendix Sylvania thats not a GE??? o.O


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Pics or it didn't happen, no really, what is a Bendix Sylvania thats not a GE??? o.O


Both Sylvania and GE built those, this one was made by Sylvania.
Here is the Bendix, note the 312 on the tube? Sylvania.

And for @sqitis  I found five 1965 Fotons that are closely matched, I also found some really well matched 53 Fotons that had belonged to Bill, then Ripper, then me. I traded them out with Ripper with some I had re-soldered so I am not sure of the hours on these. They may need to be burned in but nothing like the 100 hours that were once thought.


----------



## sam6550a

sam6550a said:


> Going back to the smooth plate 58 Melz, I have installed it into an original Saga and am listening to it. My initial impression is remarkable transparency. It is difficult for me to discern a difference between the tube and passive modes of the preamp, at least with the program material I have tried to date. Also, the tube is dead quiet in the Saga, and recall that the original Saga has an AC filament supply. I will continue listening this weekend.


Quick update on the 58 Melz smooth plate. After a lot of listening to the Melz and some other tubes in the Saga, I was concerned that I was not hearing a significant difference between them or between tube and passive modes of the original Saga. A little investigation with the trusty but dusty oscilloscope provided the answer----the 6SN7 in the Saga is a cathode follower, so its stage voltage gain is less than unity. This makes subtle listening differences [at least for me] difficult to detect. When I tried the 58 in the voltage gain stage of a power amplifier, the performance difference compared to other NOS [RCA flat plate side getter, Russian Tung Sol, 85 solid plate 6H8C], was noticeable, especially in the lack of noise. I am going to continue listening with the 58 in the voltage amp stage. Stand by for periodic updates.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> finishing two of these today, long baths in food grade mineral oil.
> 
> 
> I may do something with purple heart wood on a loaner Incubus amp. I want Sam6550A, Lory, and others to hear one sometime. I do add preamp out but something like this is never as good as an individual preamp built for that purpose. Sqitis will hear my personal incubus with one of the 58 solid plate Melz tubes and possibly a bottom getter Chatham 6as7g when Covid conditions improve. Maybe next fall?


Beautiful workmanship-----I would have a hard time using as a cutting board----probably use it as a serving board!


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Quick update on the 58 Melz smooth plate. After a lot of listening to the Melz and some other tubes in the Saga, I was concerned that I was not hearing a significant difference between them or between tube and passive modes of the original Saga. A little investigation with the trusty but dusty oscilloscope provided the answer----the 6SN7 in the Saga is a cathode follower, so its stage voltage gain is less than unity. This makes subtle listening differences [at least for me] difficult to detect. When I tried the 58 in the voltage gain stage of a power amplifier, the performance difference compared to other NOS [RCA flat plate side getter, Russian Tung Sol, 85 solid plate 6H8C], was noticeable, especially in the lack of noise. I am going to continue listening with the 58 in the voltage amp stage. Stand by for periodic updates.


Jason used four Sagas in a blind listen with some of my tubes but he warned me it might not show a lot of difference between tubes. I will send you a loaner Incubus in the spring, and it will be a pretty one just in case someone falls in love with it along the line.  No cardboard for you, that is reserved for Bill.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Both Sylvania and GE built those, this one was made by Sylvania.
> Here is the Bendix, note the 312 on the tube? Sylvania.
> 
> And for @sqitis  I found five 1965 Fotons that are closely matched, I also found some really well matched 53 Fotons that had belonged to Bill, then Ripper, then me. I traded them out with Ripper with some I had re-soldered so I am not sure of the hours on these. They may need to be burned in but nothing like the 100 hours that were once thought.


Love that Bendix tube there. <3


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Beautiful workmanship-----I would have a hard time using as a cutting board----probably use it as a serving board!


Yeah my wife says the same thing but, one of those are going on my sons bar, he might slice an occasional lime on it or such. I wanted to use other woods since the bar top itself is solid cherry.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> VT-231's were produced by a lot of manufacturers and with your love of hip hop you mentioned the other day, I can see why you would favor a Foton.
> 
> In my latest version of the Incubus, and the one I built for my self I really worked on an extended top end. Preliminary tests on four identical *incubi* amps I built over a year ago have the Foton rating very well on bass, decent on mids, and fairly low on treble. That being said they may make the final 52 tube cutoff for a large blind listen. They are a fun tube but I am used to treble that has no ceiling, that just drifts higher and higher then slowly fades. Bill has an early version, you have one that is close to my final version.
> 
> Tubes rate higher in some areas and lower in others, occasionally a tube can be found that does well across the board. I also value the opinion of many people, that is why I sent the solid plate Melz around. It is why I sent a couple loaner Incubus amps to people I know from here. When all the tubes are listened to blind and rated blind by a group of vary talented listeners, I am more apt to pay attention. I have participated in many of these listening sessions but now we lean on those who have not lost as much high frequency response as folks over 50.


The entire post is helpful, but importantly let it be known that the plural of incubus is incubi. Thank you @Paladin79, you have both audiophile and grammatical game. Here's to Head-fi literacy.


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> The entire post is helpful, but importantly let it be known that the plural of incubus is incubi. Thank you @Paladin79, you have both audiophile and grammatical game. Here's to Head-fi literacy.


@FLTWS takes the time to write it out correctly, Incvbvs using "v"s instead of "u"s but I get lazy.
I am hoping to find a few more solid plate Melz before I send the amp out for a listen and possibly four concealed power tubes in case anyone wants to wager they can pick a Chatham bottom getter 6as7g in a blind listen.   Bill is not allowed to compete in that challenge.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Love that Bendix tube there. <3


https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-x-6SN7g...249207?hash=item56e57b47b7:g:ywkAAOSwpo9fc0wv

There are plenty of the Bendix and Sylvania around.

Avoid this one, notice the 188 and side getter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN...482024?hash=item2f505923a8:g:Ne4AAOSwxAFfpdSD


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 13, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-x-6SN7g...249207?hash=item56e57b47b7:g:ywkAAOSwpo9fc0wv
> 
> There are plenty of the Bendix and Sylvania around.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised by this one I got recently.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'm surprised by this one I got recently.


That appears to be the same tube, I cannot see all the numbers but GE built some Sylvania built some as far as I know. That is the same as the Bendix I just found. I have multiple locations for tubes including drawers in my shop so it takes me a while to find things. I also have 50-100 loaned out lol. I do keep better tubes away from Finnegan.

I recommended the Baldwins to sqitis since those are tested for audio applications and I have seen a lot of NOS out there.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 13, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> That appears to be the same tube, I cannot see all the numbers but GE built some Sylvania built some as far as I know. That is the same as the Bendix I just found. I have multiple locations for tubes including drawers in my shop so it takes me a while to find things. I also have 50-100 loaned out lol. I do keep better tubes away from Finnegan.
> 
> I recommended the Baldwins to sqitis since those are tested for audio applications and I have seen a lot of NOS out there.


I got tipped on these from a tube rollers page on Facebook, they recommended the Baldwin's as they asked Sylvania for the cream of the crop specifically for their organs. I was Intrigued by that comment, how could I resist.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I got tipped on these from a tube rollers page on Facebook, they recommended the Baldwin's as they asked Sylvania for the cream of the crop specifically for their organs. I was Intrigued by that comment, how could I refuse.


That is a tube I can listen to with all forms of music. A song I might use with strong bass, good mids, and decent highs is Stuck in the Middle with You by Stealers Wheel. Bass is better on the Foton but compare all aspects of the tube and I bet the Baldwin does a nice job throughout the range.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Beautiful workmanship-----I would have a hard time using as a cutting board----probably use it as a serving board!



Me too.  I'd probably frame it and hang it on the wall.  Even if it meant displacing the velvet Elvis.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Jason used four Sagas in a blind listen with some of my tubes but he warned me it might not show a lot of difference between tubes. I will send you a loaner Incubus in the spring, and it will be a pretty one just in case someone falls in love with it along the line.  No cardboard for you, that is reserved for Bill.



You best _not_ use up my cardboard on something else.  I won't feel special any more.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Me too.  I'd probably frame it and hang it on the wall.  Even if it meant displacing the velvet Elvis.


Does your Elvis picture hang next to Dogs playing Poker?
You need to listen to the Austin Lounge Lizards more. They have a song, Paint me on Velvet. Another Stupid song about Texas is quite good too. "I am proud to be American, until I can secede."  That is an old song, no relevance to present day.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> That is a tube I can listen to with all forms of music. A song I might use with strong bass, good mids, and decent highs is Stuck in the Middle with You by Stealers Wheel. Bass is better on the Foton but compare all aspects of the tube and I bet the Baldwin does a nice job throughout the range.


I'm sipping truth serum at the moment.. (red red wine) and hope this link works..  nice recordings here. I don't usually listen to this genre but love it mixed within my playlist,

Carry On - Crosby,Stills,Nash & Young
https://tidal.com/browse/track/209393

Followed by

It's A Long Way There - Little River Band
https://tidal.com/browse/track/4214961


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Does your Elvis picture hang next to Dogs playing Poker?
> You need to listen to the Austin Lounge Lizards more. They have a song, Paint me on Velvet. Another Stupid song about Texas is quite good too. "I am proud  to be American, until I can secede."  That is an old song, no relevance to present day.


Wow..I like it!
https://tidal.com/browse/track/115107329 Paint me on Velvet Baby!! Jesus and Elvis, Willy And Me  L M F A O.. nice ..


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'm sipping truth serum at the moment.. (red red wine) and hope this link works..  nice recordings here. I don't usually listen to this genre but love it mixed within my playlist,
> 
> Carry On - Crosby,Stills,Nash & Young
> https://tidal.com/browse/track/209393
> ...


In vino veritas.  

I am working in some tube listening along with finishing up some projects. We may be listening to the same power tubes as well, I have a Chatham bottom getter in now I forgot I owned. I do have a bunch of tube boxes on the way, I need to get organized. I could take lessons from @bcowen, not that I would of course, but I could.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Wow..I like it!
> https://tidal.com/browse/track/115107329 Paint me on Velvet Baby!! Jesus and Elvis, Willy And Me  L M F A O.. nice ..


Those guys are all pretty well educated, formed the group just after college I believe. They have a song that is all redundancy called the Big Rio Grande River. Lines like "I felt her nearness close to me."

https://tidal.com/browse/album/35224760
songs 1 and 3 are favorites

Also a song mentioning "we hide the shotguns, when we drink gin."

Funny stuff, I do like this Sylvania tube, now I will see if I can pair it up for @sqitis sometime so he can decide if he wants to go for Baldwins.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> You best _not_ use up my cardboard on something else. I won't feel special any more.


I could be happy with old cigar box wood.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 13, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> I could be happy with old cigar box wood.




I also have a couple Cohiba Esplendido cigar boxes somewhere. A lovely young woman in a book group happened to go to Cuba a while back, I handed her an envelope filled with cash. I also just found where I stashed more tubes lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Does your Elvis picture hang next to Dogs playing Poker?



Well, um, yeah. Dang. Do you have a hidden camera set up here?  I guess since I keep the closet door closed you didn't see all my leisure suits?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> In vino veritas.
> 
> I am working in some tube listening along with finishing up some projects. We may be listening to the same power tubes as well, I have a Chatham bottom getter in now I forgot I owned. I do have a bunch of tube boxes on the way, I need to get organized. I could take lessons from @bcowen, not that I would of course, but I could.



I used to be _really _organized. But that was back when I was allowed to have my own room. Then kid happened.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 13, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> I could be happy with old cigar box wood.



But @Paladin79 uses a _really_ high grade of cardboard for me. Maybe he thinks more of me than he lets on. Or perhaps it was just part of the box from his new refrigerator. With the printing on the inside I can't tell the difference...blind and all.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 13, 2020)

CTL-VT-231 BGRP. TS. (Not to shabby)


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I used to be _really _organized. But that was back when I was allowed to have my own room. Then kid happened.


Angels sing when this door opens... 🙂


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> I used to be _really _organized. But that was back when I was allowed to have my own room. Then kid happened.


I actually like the guard cat myself.......


----------



## sqitis

JKDJedi said:


> VT-231 BGRP. TS. (Not to shabby)


Ok he brought out the big guns now!


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I also have a couple Cohiba Esplendido cigar boxes somewhere. A lovely young woman in a book group happened to go to Cuba a while back, I handed her an envelope filled with cash. I also just found where I stashed more tubes lol.


Tubes in a cigar box---is the sound more relaxed?


----------



## Paladin79

Absolutely and I can keep the tubes away from Finnegan better. Things like shoe boxes do not work, he bites chunks out of them and spits them out.


----------



## JTbbb

Hello there chaps, may I have your learned thoughts on these? They are supposed to be Ken-Rad 1948, but Paladin79 mentioned several posts ago “avoid 188” so this has me slightly worried even though that statement referred to a Bendix tube. Thanks.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 14, 2020)

JTbbb said:


> Hello there chaps, may I have your learned thoughts on these? They are supposed to be Ken-Rad 1948, but Paladin79 mentioned several posts ago “avoid 188” so this has me slightly worried even though that statement referred to a Bendix tube. Thanks.


It gets tricky with Ken-Rad because GE bought them and still kept producing tubes with Ken-Rad parts for a while. I was indeed talking about Bendix the other day and GE built some, as did Sylvania. Those could be proper Ken-Rads. Maybe @gibosi knows the plate structure on those.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Electrical_Lamp_Company


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Hello there chaps, may I have your learned thoughts on these? They are supposed to be Ken-Rad 1948, but Paladin79 mentioned several posts ago “avoid 188” so this has me slightly worried even though that statement referred to a Bendix tube. Thanks.



The "stop sign" frame bordering the 6SN7 silk-screened on the glass was used by RCA and TungSol, so these are particularly confusing.  The text font is NOT GE, which is a good thing, nor are there any etched dots on the glass which is another good thing (meaning it's very unlikely they were made by GE).  Did KenRad actually make them, or did RCA or TungSol OEM them for KenRad?  I don't know for sure...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The "stop sign" frame bordering the 6SN7 silk-screened on the glass was used by RCA and TungSol, so these are particularly confusing.  The text font is NOT GE, which is a good thing, nor are there any etched dots on the glass which is another good thing (meaning it's very unlikely they were made by GE).  Did KenRad actually make them, or did RCA or TungSol OEM them for KenRad?  I don't know for sure...


I have the same Ken-Rad tube as well as a Motorola with the same ladder plates, both marked 188-5. A Jan GE vt-231 has identical plates but they are grey instead of shiny black. Those same plates were used in GE tubes with side getters and the dot dating system. Finnegan is more interested in a Tung Sol and Philco black glass at the moment, he is being a huge help.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 14, 2020)

Same tube here dated D5 with no visible 188 code, (rubbed off?) Just the JAN-CKR-6SN7GT Ken Rad io the base. mids are insane paired with the right output tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is more interested in a Tung Sol and Philco black glass at the moment, he is being a huge help.



Appears Finnegan has way better taste in tubes than you, what with all these GE purchases of late.  I'm beginning to worry about you.  Perhaps you need some better hearing protection while operating that table saw.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Appears Finnegan has way better taste in tubes than you, what with all these GE purchases of late.  I'm beginning to worry about you.  Perhaps you need some better hearing protection while operating that table saw.


I bought one GE VT-231 just in case you and I get into a tube challenge again. This time though I would have to have the steak dinner delivered by Uber Eats or some such.
I wear hearing protection, it is the saw trying to eat my thumb that is the biggest concern! Oops back to work for me, I am still employed you know.


----------



## JTbbb

Thanks very much everyone for your input. I think in all probability these tubes are Ken-Rad. Either manufactured by them or more likely by another using KR parts. I guess we’ll never really know unless you could time travel!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oops back to work for me, I am still employed you know.



Bummer, dude.  It's _way _more fun the other way.


----------



## JKDJedi

JTbbb said:


> Thanks very much everyone for your input. I think in all probability these tubes are Ken-Rad. Either manufactured by them or more likely by another using KR parts. I guess we’ll never really know unless you could time travel!


It's a great tube, enjoy. 🙂


----------



## LoryWiv

sam6550a said:


> Tubes in a cigar box---is the sound more relaxed?


Best used for _smoked_ glass tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Bummer, dude.  It's _way _more fun the other way.


I would be working much harder if retired, and no more soup, free amps for you!!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would be working much harder if retired, and no more soup, free amps for you!!!!



I'm not technically retired.  Yet. Just thoroughly enjoying life not having to deal with that rancid monkey-puss piece of human garbage I had for a boss any more.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I'm not technically retired.  Yet. Just thoroughly enjoying life not having to deal with that rancid monkey-puss piece of human garbage I had for a boss any more.


one year to go for me... 30 years of service and at 55...GONE fishing!! (well, if the misses gives me permission that is)


----------



## SHIMACM

Esses TS BGRP estão aqui?


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 14, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Esses TS BGRP estão aqui?


Não, esses tubos são RCA.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> no son de RCA



I did not understand. Are they RCAs?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I did not understand. Are they RCAs?


RCA


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> RCA



I was surprised at the price. Thanks!


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I was surprised at the price. Thanks!


Também perguntei sobre eles, é uma lista impopular.  fique longe daquele.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Também perguntei sobre eles, é uma lista impopular.  fique longe daquele.



Bite-em my butt-us.  Speak English.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> one year to go for me... 30 years of service and at 55...GONE fishing!! (well, if the misses gives me permission that is)



What are you going to do _then_? Play golf all day, or just harass @Paladin79 like me?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What are you going to do _then_? Play golf all day, or just harass @Paladin79 like me?


You keep forgetting I might help you with your Darkvoice cabinet, or maybe extremely not help you.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> What are you going to do _then_? Play golf all day, or just harass @Paladin79 like me?


If I harass him enough I might get another amp out of it... 🤣


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You keep forgetting I might help you with your Darkvoice cabinet, or maybe extremely not help you.



Ooops.  I meant "carry on intelligent and interesting conversations with @Paladin79 ".  Stupid auto-correct...I hate it.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> If I harass him enough I might get another amp out of it... 🤣


I already sent you Finnegan's favorite amp!

He chews on the tubes a lot less if they are glowing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I already sent you Finnegan's favorite amp!
> He chews on the tubes a lot less if they are glowing.



You should get Finnegan something more appropriate to chew on.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Ooops.  I meant "carry on intelligent and interesting unilateral conversations with @Paladin79 ".  Stupid auto-correct...I hate it.


There I fixed it for you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There I fixed it for you.



LOL!  I _was_ gonna say that, but didn't want to make you feel bad.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should get Finnegan something more appropriate to chew on.


He likes dogs, it is the other cats he terrorizes.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> What are you going to do _then_? Play golf all day, or just harass @Paladin79 like me?


Embrace the power of "and".


----------



## sqitis (Dec 14, 2020)

So I'm getting ready to drop in some 73' Melz and pull out the 57 Foton. What changes should I expect? Just curious to hear yawls thoughts........


----------



## JKDJedi

sqitis said:


> So I'm getting ready to drop in some 73' Melz and pull out the 57 Foton. What changes should I expect? Just curious to hear yawls thoughts........


extreme mids


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> So I'm getting ready to drop in some 73' Melz and pull out the 57 Foton. What changes should I expect? Just curious to hear yawls thoughts........


73 is not as bad as 80’s versions but the mids are noticeable, highs are decent, bass is to my liking but not overpowering.


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> So I'm getting ready to drop in some 73' Melz and pull out the 57 Foton. What changes should I expect? Just curious to hear yawls thoughts........



Since you are not (at least currently) a Southerner, the 'yawls' transgression is forgiven.  But it's Y'alls for future reference.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Since you are not (at least currently) a Southerner, the 'yawls' transgression is forgiven.  But it's Y'alls for future reference.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> Since you are not (at least currently) a Southerner, the 'yawls' transgression is forgiven.  But it's Y'alls for future reference.


Does it count if I lived in NOLA for a while.....LOL


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> 73 is not as bad as 80’s versions but the mids are noticeable, highs are decent, bass is to my liking but not overpowering.



Right out the gate a smoother tube with more inner detail. Mid is not bad really at least not yet. The highs might be touch softer than the Foton but that's just a soft preference probably. Yeah the bass is more there and rounder overall. I like it so far!


----------



## sqitis

Ok yeah, I'd like to take this 73 Melz and marry it with the CBS/Hytron 5692 excellent match for sure! I see now @bcowen & @Paladin79, you guys are spot on!


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Ok yeah, I'd like to take this 73 Melz and marry it with the CBS/Hytron 5692 excellent match for sure! I see now @bcowen & @Paladin79, you guys are spot on!


I may get some 63’s before long, I like them better. The 73’s are what I happened to have. Now a pair of solid plate 58’s are very top shelf but they are as rare as rocking horse Schiit.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> I may get some 63’s before long, I like them better. The 73’s are what I happened to have. Now a pair of solid plate 58’s are very top shelf but they are as rare as rocking horse Schiit.


Keep me in the loop! I'd like to hear those for sure!!


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Keep me in the loop! I'd like to hear those for sure!!


You will hear them, that is a promise. I may build an Incubus before I finish a Cowen speaker amp, you can pick it up and I would lend you headphones, not Utopias but something decent.


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Does it count if I lived in NOLA for a while.....LOL



No, sorry.  That's too close to Texas, which as we all know is a foreign country.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> No, sorry.  That's too close to Texas, which as we all know is a foreign country.


Hahaha too damn funny! But also true!


----------



## sqitis

Yep I like this 73 melz, it's smooth and jazzy. It's a tubey tube that is also detailed. Just a very well rounded sound with the most inner detail of the lower end.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Yep I like this 73 melz, it's smooth and jazzy. It's a tubey tube that is also detailed. Just a very well rounded sound with the most inner detail of the lower end.


Great description. The Melz offer so many differences depending on the year made. They are not cheap; worth investigating though.


----------



## sqitis

I will say that for this 73 Melz to shine it needs the proper tube to compliment it.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> I will say that for this 73 Melz to shine it needs the proper tube to compliment it.


It depends on its usage, it is one of the reasons I do class A amps with driver and power tube. You hear each 6sn7 and can change the sound profile a bit with the power tube. Pop in another 6sn7 and differences are obvious. Want to listen to specific songs and increase the bass? Pop in a Foton. I design for my ears and along the way others seemed to get it.😀


----------



## JKDJedi

sqitis said:


> I will say that for this 73 Melz to shine it needs the proper tube to compliment it.


Get the 63'


----------



## sqitis (Dec 14, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> It depends on its usage, it is one of the reasons I do class A amps with driver and power tube. You hear each 6sn7 and can change the sound profile a bit with the power tube. Pop in another 6sn7 and differences are obvious. Want to listen to specific songs and increase the bass? Pop in a Foton. I design for my ears and along the way others seemed to get it.😀


I totally agree! Each of these work better with different types of music. This Melz is just not fatiguing at all and just very melodic. No, it's not the most vivid or airy tube but pair that with what it lacks and OMG you could hear audio euphoria.


----------



## sqitis

JKDJedi said:


> Get the 63'


I'm trying! You gotta line on some??   I just gotta stay patient, I know they will come...soon


----------



## JKDJedi

sqitis said:


> I'm trying! You gotta line on some??   I just gotta stay patient, I know they will come...soon


these guys might have it, message them. and @Paladin79 might have some 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...-/172487230235?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


----------



## sqitis

JKDJedi said:


> these guys might have it, message them. and @Paladin79 might have some
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...-/172487230235?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


Yeah I'm working Tom over on testing and trying to get some goodies from him. He's been great and I gotta feeling he'll find me some 63's!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> these guys might have it, message them. and @Paladin79 might have some
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...-/172487230235?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292


I should have two shortly after Christmas depending on the USPS, I have some horror stories involving them.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Yeah I'm working Tom over on testing and trying to get some goodies from him. He's been great and I gotta feeling he'll find me some 63's!


Today my people will ship a bunch of wood products I made, I just have one more to complete and then I can turn my attention to cables, an amp, and maybe a cutting board for you and your wife. I have a custom shed being delivered today and I may be able to convert that to a listening area short term.


----------



## sqitis

Awesome, thank you Tom! No rush! It's the Holidays, take it easy!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have a custom shed being delivered today and I may be able to convert that to a listening area short term.



First the GE's, and now _this_?  Tom, it may be time for an intervention.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> First the GE's, and now _this_?  Tom, it may be time for an intervention.



It is for my wife and stop posting photos it will spoil the surprise!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> First the GE's, and now _this_?  Tom, it may be time for an intervention.



Practically the same thing, only different.


----------



## Paladin79

I just happened upon one of these in my tubes, a Tung Sol with black glass, VT-231, not a bad sounding tube.
Oh yeah I have to be careful reaching for my mouse, it may be occupied.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I just happened upon one of these in my tubes, a Tung Sol with black glass, VT-231, not a bad sounding tube.
> Oh yeah I have to be careful reaching for my mouse, it may be occupied.


Is it just me or for some reason the top mica and support rods resemble certain Russian tubes?    i don't know why the OP says these are dry, not even close, these are as transparent of a tube if I ever heard one. Nice quick attack and lots of energy. Like black coffee.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Is it just me or for some reason the top mica and support rods resemble certain Russian tubes?    i don't know why the OP says these are dry, not even close, these are as transparent of a tube if I ever heard one. Nice quick attack and lots of energy. Like black coffee.


it does look like Melz supports. The Melz are just a bit wider. The tube does have a lot of character.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Practically the same thing, only different.



That's not a _shed_.  That's like a starter home.  In fact, it may even be bigger than the first house I bought... LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's not a _shed_.  That's like a starter home.  In fact, it may even be bigger than the first house I bought... LOL!!


Hey I need my shop back, I am desperate. I keep getting sawdust all over my wife's pottery wheel, and her if she does not duck out quick enough.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> it does look like Melz supports. The Melz are just a bit wider. The tube does have a lot of character.


That's another tube on my short list I'd like to try someday.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> That's not a _shed_.  That's like a starter home.  In fact, it may even be bigger than the first house I bought... LOL!!


Hell it's definitely nicer than some I've lived in......LOL


----------



## sqitis

Ok so I left the gear on overnight with the 73 Melz and wow does it bloom after a true warm up. Initially I thought maybe it was rolled off at the top, but nope! It just needed to warm up and the bass/lower mid bass is spectacular! As far as the mid range goes I don't find it all that forward, very detailed and full yes. It just pulls more inner detail out of instruments and maybe some think it seems forward but I'm sure it's all system dependent.  I had a quad set of 78 Melz in my previous Cary SLP-05 and these 73 remind me of them and I reconnize this sound. Not sure if they made changes from 73 to 78 but I hear the similarities.


----------



## JKDJedi

sqitis said:


> Ok so I left the gear on overnight with the 73 Melz and wow does it bloom after a true warm up. Initially I thought maybe it was rolled off at the top, but nope! It just needed to warm up and the bass/lower mid bass is spectacular! As far as the mid range goes I don't find it all that forward, very detailed and full yes. It just pulls more inner detail out of instruments and maybe some think it seems forward but I'm sure it's all system dependent.  I had a quad set of 78 Melz in my previous Cary SLP-05 and these 73 remind me of them and I reconnize this sound. Not sure if they made changes from 73 to 78 but I hear the similarities.


what amp are you using and output tubes are?


----------



## sqitis (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm using a quad set of 44' Sylvania VT-231 with the 73 Melz in the buffer stage and the inexpensive pair of Emotiva XPA-1 gen2 mono blocks. I do use a set of Audio Research Ref 210 mono's as well but they are out of town at the moment. Yeah I know I might get boo'd since it's no CAN setup.....


.


----------



## JKDJedi

sqitis said:


> I'm using a quad set of 44' Sylvania VT-231 with the 73 Melz in the buffer stage and the inexspensive pair of Emotiva XPA-1 gen2 mono blocks. I do use a set of Audio Research Ref 210 mono's as well but they are out of town at the moment.


whoah... please share a pic of that setup. nice.


----------



## sqitis

JKDJedi said:


> whoah... please share a pic of that setup. nice.


Sorry TT rig is on the floor waiting to be put back on the wall after I re-paint, so she's resting at the moment. I also need to get some scatter plates behind the speakers on the wall.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> Since you are not (at least currently) a Southerner, the 'yawls' transgression is forgiven.  But it's Y'alls for future reference.


I had a really enjoyable experience sailing a yawl from Morehead to St. Croix years ago.


----------



## attmci

sqitis said:


> I'm using a quad set of 44' Sylvania VT-231 with the 73 Melz in the buffer stage and the inexpensive pair of Emotiva XPA-1 gen2 mono blocks. I do use a set of Audio Research Ref 210 mono's as well but they are out of town at the moment. Yeah I know I might get boo'd since it's no CAN setup......


You need BT: 
https://www.monoprice.com/product?c...1853&cjevent=de7561463f3a11eb82bf01400a240611


----------



## JKDJedi

sqitis said:


> Sorry TT rig is on the floor waiting to be put back on the wall after I re-paint, so she's resting at the moment. I also need to get some scatter plates behind the speakers on the wall.


gonna give the 71' another roll ...been awhile.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 15, 2020)

sqitis said:


> Sorry TT rig is on the floor waiting to be put back on the wall after I re-paint, so she's resting at the moment. I also need to get some scatter plates behind the speakers on the wall.


wow.. that's highly impressive to say the least.. wasn't expecting anything dramatic as that.. very nice. You Kevin Deal from Upscale Audio? @sqitis


----------



## sqitis

JKDJedi said:


> gonna give the 71' another roll ...been awhile.


Leave it on for like a day and then listen.....LOL


----------



## sqitis

JKDJedi said:


> wow.. that's highly impressive to say the least.. wasn't expecting anything dramatic as that.. very nice. You Kevin Deal from Upscale Audio?


Yep I know who he is.....always shopped tubes at his site.


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Yep I know who he is.....always shopped tubes at his site.



I am most pleased to see the maple blocks which shows you're a man of impeccable audio taste. Please get @Paladin79 over for a demonstration so he'll quit thinking I'm making it all up.  LOL!


----------



## sqitis (Dec 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I am most pleased to see the maple blocks which shows you're a man of impeccable audio taste. Please get @Paladin79 over for a demonstration so he'll quit thinking I'm making it all up.  LOL!


Yep will do! I love the maple blocks....just the extra step that does seem to help on the final touches.

Oh and the best part is the homemade isolation setup......you'll love the details


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Yep will do! I love the maple blocks....just the extra step that does seem to help on the final touches.
> 
> Oh and the best part is the homemade isolation setup......you'll love the details



I'm a bit disappointed the cable risers are solid state, but I didn't want to offend you.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I am most pleased to see the maple blocks which shows you're a man of impeccable audio taste. Please get @Paladin79 over for a demonstration so he'll quit thinking I'm making it all up.  LOL!


Wow can you tell when the maple blocks are in the room and not in the room like sorbothane?  I would love to see a demonstration of that.😜


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Wow can you tell when the maple blocks are in the room and not in the room like sorbothane?  I would love to see a demonstration of that.😜


Yeah Sorbothane sucks the sound out of the room and sounds dead.....LOL I may have some laying around and we can compare


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wow can you tell when the maple blocks are in the room and not in the room like sorbothane?  I would love to see a demonstration of that.😜



No, but I can tell you when a component that I'm familiar with is sitting on sorbothane versus a maple block.  Steak dinner bet on that for sure...and *TWO* bottles of $1.99 scotch.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> I'm a bit disappointed the cable risers are solid state, but I didn't want to offend you.


Ok which ones do you prefer?? I went stupid cheap but want to go with the old school cable risers that were used on power poles........LOL


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Yeah Sorbothane sucks the sound out of the room and sounds dead.....LOL I may have some laying around and we can compare
> [/QUOTE
> My plan was to have Bill’s wife randomly conceal some on her person so Bill could say when the sound went dead.


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Ok which ones do you prefer?? I went stupid cheap but want to go with the old school cable risers that were used on power poles........LOL



In my previous home and system I used ceramic ones.  Mostly because I got a bunch of them for cheap and they didn't look as stupid as some.  Honestly I couldn't tell a bit of difference in the 'type' of riser used, but I_ could_ hear a difference with the speaker cables lifted off the floor (which was wall-to-wall carpet of a wool/nylon blend on a concrete pad). In my current setup (suspended hardwood floor) I can't tell any difference with or without.  Different floor, different cables.  Is it static charge that makes a difference?  I really don't know, but my experience would suggest that could be at least a partial (and reasonably viable) explanation.  Vibration doesn't make sense in the applications I've had, as my current suspended floor vibrates a lot more than my old concrete pad foundation.


----------



## bcowen

Sigh.  You've been spending too much time reading Geoff Kait's musings. As hard as you may find it to believe, that stuff is beyond hilarious...even to me.  

http://machinadynamica.com/#:~:text... to noise ratio, thus improving sound quality.


----------



## sqitis (Dec 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> In my previous home and system I used ceramic ones.  Mostly because I got a bunch of them for cheap and they didn't look as stupid as some.  Honestly I couldn't tell a bit of difference in the 'type' of riser used, but I_ could_ hear a difference with the speaker cables lifted off the floor (which was wall-to-wall carpet of a wool/nylon blend on a concrete pad). In my current setup (suspended hardwood floor) I can't tell any difference with or without.  Different floor, different cables.  Is it static charge that makes a difference?  I really don't know, but my experience would suggest that could be at least a partial (and reasonably viable) explanation.  Vibration doesn't make sense in the applications I've had, as my current suspended floor vibrates a lot more than my old concrete pad foundation.


Yep those are the same ones I expected to be better. Nice setup! I like the dual racks and vinyl setup! What amps are those? Almost look 805ish......LOL


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> In my previous home and system I used ceramic ones.  Mostly because I got a bunch of them for cheap and they didn't look as stupid as some.  Honestly I couldn't tell a bit of difference in the 'type' of riser used, but I_ could_ hear a difference with the speaker cables lifted off the floor (which was wall-to-wall carpet of a wool/nylon blend on a concrete pad). In my current setup (suspended hardwood floor) I can't tell any difference with or without.  Different floor, different cables.  Is it static charge that makes a difference?  I really don't know, but my experience would suggest that could be at least a partial (and reasonably viable) explanation.  Vibration doesn't make sense in the applications I've had, as my current suspended floor vibrates a lot more than my old concrete pad foundation.


I thought you guys were joking until I saw the pic here.... risers to keep the cable off the floor.. I'm speechless. 😐


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I thought you guys were joking until I saw the pic here.... risers to keep the cable off the floor.. I'm speechless. 😐


It is done, I need to get my wife to start making those out of clay. I could do maple tops for them.😎  Maybe a dozen in a set, I may get back my investment in the shed pretty quickly.


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Yep those are the same ones I expected to be better. Nice setup! I like the dual racks and vinyl setup! What amps are those? Almost look 805ish......LOL



Good eyes!  Those were the 211's.  Had three different versions of the 805's too, starting with the original version using an EL-34 as the pre-driver for the 845 tube.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> It is done, I need to get my wife to start making those out of clay. I could do maple tops for them.😎  Maybe a dozen in a set, I may get back my investment in the shed pretty quickly.


Yep I'll be your first customer! I was just about to ask you to make some 19x16 maple blocks.....LOL


----------



## sqitis (Dec 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Good eyes!  Those were the 211's.  Had three different versions of the 805's too, starting with the original version using an EL-34 as the pre-driver for the 845 tube.


Yes the orignal 211! I noticed that and almost bought a pair of those from a local friend. Match made in heaven for my SLP-05! Can't help notice the "eye" on the front of the amps!


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Yep I'll be your first customer! I was just about to ask you to make some 19x16 maple blocks.....LOL


I could but see I was taught to avoid solid surfaces, so mine would be more ornate.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is done, I need to get my wife to start making those out of clay. I could do maple tops for them.😎  Maybe a dozen in a set, I may get back my investment in the shed pretty quickly.



Give them some fancy, scientific sounding name (you know, involving 'quantum' or 'molecular' or 'subatomic' or 'dark matter' or similar), put together a 10 page white paper (doesn't need to make any sense as long as it's beyond any possible comprehension), and they'll fly out of the shed faster than you can box them up.


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Yes the orignal 211! I noticed that and almost bought a pair of those from a local friend. Match made in heaven for my SLP-05! Can't help notice the "eye" on the front of the amps!



Yeah, too bad they changed that to a meter.  The 'eye' was way more entertaining.    But don't feel bad about missing the 211's...they were probably my least favorite Cary amp of the couple dozen that passed through my hands over the years.  I loved the 300B versions of the 805's and the V-12i (especially in monoblock form).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Give them some fancy, scientific sounding name (you know, involving 'quantum' or 'molecular' or 'subatomic' or 'dark matter' or similar), put together a 10 page white paper (doesn't need to make any sense as long as it's beyond any possible comprehension), and they'll fly out of the shed faster than you can box them up.


Those are still a hard sell. I am getting people from other sites asking about my amp, I only need $25-$30k to cover the complete setup. 3 months would do it if I did not give some away.


----------



## sqitis (Dec 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, too bad they changed that to a meter.  The 'eye' was way more entertaining.    But don't feel bad about missing the 211's...they were probably my least favorite Cary amp of the couple dozen that passed through my hands over the years.  I loved the 300B versions of the 805's and the V-12i (especially in monoblock form).


Yep the original 211 I heard were just a tad dry and forward...lacking the air that I enjoy! I really like the V12i mono as well and maybe one day will have some.......Pretty to look at as well!

Long story short, I almost pulled the trigger on the Walter Becker set of 211's here in Indiana that went up for auction but then I got realistic.....LOL


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those are still a hard sell. I am getting people from other sites asking about my amp, I only need $25-$30k to cover the complete setup. 3 months would do it if I did not give some away.



You could probably do the white paper tonight before you go to bed.    Spell check is unnecessary -- if it doesn't flag at least 75% of the words, you haven't picked ones that are confusing enough.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> You could probably do the white paper tonight before you go to bed.   Spell check is unnecessary -- if it doesn't flag at least 75% of the words, you haven't picked ones that are confusing enough.


Oh god that is sooooo true!!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You could probably do the white paper tonight before you go to bed.    Spell check is unnecessary -- if it doesn't flag at least 75% of the words, you haven't picked ones that are confusing enough.


I will throw in septentrional, but I still do not have access to my mouse, Finnegan is keeping guard on it.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I thought you guys were joking until I saw the pic here.... risers to keep the cable off the floor.. I'm speechless. 😐



I've never tried them with a headphone cable.  Guess I have something to do tomorrow after all.


----------



## SHIMACM

For those looking for 1963 Melz. I think those are. See the photos.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...C32-HOLE-PLATE-MELZ-tube-60s-OTK/172487230235


----------



## sqitis

SHIMACM said:


> For those looking for 1963 Melz. I think those are. See the photos.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...C32-HOLE-PLATE-MELZ-tube-60s-OTK/172487230235


Yeah I've been watching those as well.....


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> For those looking for 1963 Melz. I think those are. See the photos.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...C32-HOLE-PLATE-MELZ-tube-60s-OTK/172487230235


Even if those  say sixties they would most likely be very good tubes, I own a 69 somewhere and it is decent. Naturally I would have a friends and family price for sqitis and when they say the tubes might deliver by March, sometime that is very true. I am still waiting for a solid plate Melz out of Russia I ordered November 25th.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Even if those  say sixties they would most likely be very good tubes, I own a 69 somewhere and it is decent. Naturally I would have a friends and family price for sqitis and when they say the tubes might deliver by March, sometime that is very true. I am still waiting for a solid plate Melz out of Russia I ordered November 25th.


Oh wow, that's crazy. Yeah that's why I'm holding off buying anything outside of the US at the moment.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> Even if those  say sixties they would most likely be very good tubes, I own a 69 somewhere and it is decent. Naturally I would have a friends and family price for sqitis and when they say the tubes might deliver by March, sometime that is very true. I am still waiting for a solid plate Melz out of Russia I ordered November 25th.



The ad is 63.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Oh wow, that's crazy. Yeah that's why I'm holding off buying anything outside of the US at the moment.


I had one package from Russia that sat in Chicago for a month waiting to clear customs, if the items come in to New York or DC they arrive pretty quickly. My tube is in Indianapolis now but the last time I mailed something there it took ten days to arrive lol. That was well before the Christmas rush too.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> The ad is 63.


Sorry I missed that, I kept looking for a clear logo.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I missed that, I kept looking for a clear logo.



Does the number on the base always correspond to the date silkscreened on the glass below the Melz logo?  I've never paid attention to that before.  Just wondering if that is, in fact, the date or if it's an unrelated number.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 16, 2020)

I will look at some, I was always told if it was purple that was stamped on later. Many of mine are unstamped down below but I have a 78 where it matches down below and it is stamped in purple along with 1578, that is a Russian add on but the date is right. On a 69 there is no such number. On my 63's there is no markings on the base whatsoever as I recall.


----------



## JKDJedi

sqitis said:


> Oh wow, that's crazy. Yeah that's why I'm holding off buying anything outside of the US at the moment.


From Russia Wit Love.. Up to two months sometimes.. they come via boat freight.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> For those looking for 1963 Melz. I think those are. See the photos.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...C32-HOLE-PLATE-MELZ-tube-60s-OTK/172487230235


I'd message them and specifically ask for the 63' if ordering from them (thanks to @Paladin79 for the find on the 63' excellent tube)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> From Russia Wit Love.. Up to two months sometimes.. they come via boat freight.



I got my last pair of Fotons from Russia (purchased about 3 months ago) in 8 days.  Now the Tung Sol 5998 that shipped from California last May?  Still conspicuous by its absence.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 16, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I got my last pair of Fotons from Russia (purchased about 3 months ago) in 8 days.  Now the Tung Sol 5998 that shipped from California last May?  Still conspicuous by its absence.


I am waiting for more Satsumas and a couple times I could not even get the tracking system to work for USPS.

I do believe Russia is using flights again for international mail, I have received things in 8 days but it depended on port of entry, the customs office, then the US mail.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I'd message them and specifically ask for the 63' if ordering from them (thanks to @Paladin79 for the find on the 63' excellent tube)


I like them but it is hard to please everyone.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am waiting for more Satsumas and a couple times I could not even get the tracking system to work for USPS.
> 
> I do believe Russia is using flights again for international mail, I have received things in 8 days but it depended on port of entry, the customs office, then the US mail.



My caps for the Darkvoice were accepted at the Post Office in Texas last Saturday morning.  They're still at the Post Office in Texas.  I mean I know Texas is a big state and all, but still...


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it is probably at the infamous Coppell, TX distribution center -- the Black Hole of the USPS.  Packages go in and never come out.   

Or if elsewhere, please be be patient it does take a while to get across this big state on horseback.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it is probably at the infamous Coppell, TX distribution center -- the Black Hole of the USPS.  Packages go in and never come out.
> 
> Or if elsewhere, please be be patient it does take a while to get across this big state on horseback.



LOL!  So Coppell must be the TX version of NC's Mid-Carolina Distribution center near Charlotte.  They need a warehouse as big as Texas just to store all the stuff they've "lost."


----------



## Paladin79

I am getting things back and forth to California in 2-3 days USPS, soon I should have several items for @sqitis including a pair of 63 Melz.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> I am getting things back and forth to California in 2-3 days USPS, soon I should have several items for @sqitis including a pair of 63 Melz.


Oh yes, love it! Can't wait! I'm driving down to Louisville tomorrow for your next gift.....LOL


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Oh yes, love it! Can't wait! I'm driving down to Louisville tomorrow for your next gift.....LOL


Try to keep it small, quart size or less. My wife would be upset if I tried to stable a race horse in the shed.  
You are a fine example of how one should treat a friend, @bcowen is on the other end of the scale. He searches for $1.89 bottles of scotch as a thank you.


----------



## attmci

Another victim?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174562187613?ul_noapp=true


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Try to keep it small, quart size or less. My wife would be upset if I tried to stable a race horse in the shed.
> You are a fine example of how one should treat a friend, @bcowen is on the other end of the scale. He searches for $1.89 bottles of scotch as a thank you.



My momma always taught me it's the thought that counts.  At least that's what she always said when all I got for Christmas was a sock.  But I always looked forward to my birthday when I'd get the other sock to go with it.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Another victim?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/174562187613?ul_noapp=true


L M F A O..NooooOOOOooooOOOooo That is wrong in a lot of ways.. Who buys this!?  (permission to rass on the new guy that chimes in, are these any good?)


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> L M F A O..NooooOOOOooooOOOooo That is wrong in a lot of ways.. Who buys this!?  (permission to rass on the new guy that chimes in, are these any good?)



Dude, menifee/bangybang is getting away with murder.

NOS RARE PAIR 6J7G SCREEN PLATE * FULL FLASHING PERFECT TUBES VINTAGE 348A 6J7GT | eBay 

Look at this BS above.  I have a similar pair, but costs me 25 bucks.  This guy is unbelievable.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Try to keep it small, quart size or less. My wife would be upset if I tried to stable a race horse in the shed.
> You are a fine example of how one should treat a friend, @bcowen is on the other end of the scale. He searches for $1.89 bottles of scotch as a thank you.


It just might be a miniature pony......LOL


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> It just might be a miniature pony......LOL


You are fine as long as the word "keg" applies to the pony. I have already decided on a cutting board design I will gift you, after I get some other projects completed.


----------



## FLTWS

Somewhere recently I saw a post showing a pair of speaker cables with a price tag of $100,000.00. No speakers or amp attached at either end, just the cables. 
That makes my head hurt.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Try to keep it small, quart size or less. My wife would be upset if I tried to stable a race horse in the shed.
> You are a fine example of how one should treat a friend, @bcowen is on the other end of the scale. He searches for *$1.89 bottles of scotch* as a thank you.


Are we sure it's not scotch tape coming your way for that kind of money?


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Are we sure it's not scotch tape coming your way for that kind of money?


I did once win a bet with a lady from New York and she sent me miniature bottles, maybe that is what Bill located 😺


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I did once win a bet with a lady from New York and she sent me miniature bottles, maybe that is what Bill located 😺



Better not be.  The ad clearly stated it was a 55 gallon drum for that price.  I hesitated, but when I saw the free shipping I couldn't resist.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> L M F A O..NooooOOOOooooOOOooo That is wrong in a lot of ways.. Who buys this!?  (permission to rass on the new guy that chimes in, are these any good?)



Every time that guy gets a PayPal email stating he's just received funds, he's *got* to be laughing his butt completely off.

I think I'll put up a pair of Frankies for $400, and if *I* get that PayPal email, I'll immediately post an audio recording of me laughing _my_ butt off.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Better not be.  The ad clearly stated it was a 55 gallon drum for that price.  I hesitated, but when I saw the free shipping I couldn't resist.


Remind me to buy you a can of water sometime. You would like this one cause it uses a cat in its add.






Now getting back to tubes, I have a couple 63 Melz 1578's cooking that are tightly matched. Test track is a remastered version of Blue Monday by New Order.


----------



## attmci

Slade01 said:


> Dude, menifee/bangybang is getting away with murder.
> 
> NOS RARE PAIR 6J7G SCREEN PLATE * FULL FLASHING PERFECT TUBES VINTAGE 348A 6J7GT | eBay
> 
> Look at this BS above.  I have a similar pair, but costs me 25 bucks.  This guy is unbelievable.


The one I referred to is sold. 

Try this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-RARE-NOS...2&brand=Brimar&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Remind me to buy you a can of water sometime. You would like this one cause it uses a cat in its add.
> 
> 
> 
> Now getting back to tubes, I have a couple 63 Melz 1578's cooking that are tightly matched. Test track is a remastered version of Blue Monday by New Order.


Pretty sure it comes with a used water filter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WLF-20B-Re...046732?hash=item2f4d76134c:g:MEkAAOSwXwRfSLKo


----------



## DenverW

attmci said:


> The one I referred to is sold.
> 
> Try this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-RARE-NOS-BRITISH-MADE-TUBES-BRIMAR-B65-6SN7GT-VT-231-5Y3GT-6V6GT-AMAZING/174470970649?_trkparms=aid=1110012&algo=SPLICE.SOIPOST&ao=1&asc=20200122160600&meid=b42b2e3b7a0649a1a865f0931340c00a&pid=100011&rk=4&rkt=12&sd=174562187613&itm=174470970649&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=PromotedSellersOtherItemsV2&brand=Brimar&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850



I don't see what the problem is.  He clearly states that they're amazing.  What do you people want?!?!?


----------



## attmci

DenverW said:


> I don't see what the problem is.  He clearly states that they're amazing.  What do you people want?!?!?


Did you notice there are there different tubes listed as a bundle? Who the heck need to buy three different tubes at the same time? The seller wants you to believe you will get three Brimar 6SN7GT at $350.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 18, 2020)

I just received another version of a solid plate Melz, this one with dull gray plates instead of shiny black. It also has a round getter holder and the date code is 86. First I need to test it, re-solder it then test it again and then it goes into an Incubus for a first impression. I for one like to get a feel for how the tube sounds out of the box and more intense listening later.

Bass and mids are very good, the treble needs to improve for me to be happy with this tube. There are some red flags. Metal bass appears to have been re-crimped. No actual Melz logo yet it has the majority of the right traits. Purple lettering on the base is pretty sloppy, barely legible on date code. Pins are loose and already re-soldered apparently. Upper mids are starting to remind me of actual 1578's of this period.

Current test album is The Joy of Music, The Job of Real Estate by Vulfpeck. Range of instruments and sounds is interesting, remember this is a test album, I am not recommending it the way @bcowen might suggest Marilyn Manson.



.


----------



## DenverW

attmci said:


> Did you notice there are there different tubes listed as a bundle? Who the heck need to buy three different tubes at the same time? The seller wants you to believe you will get three Brimar 6SN7GT at $350.


there certainly are a lot of crap sellers on eBay.  It makes me angry every time I see a rca 6as7g being sold like it’s a 421a or 5998.


----------



## Slade01

DenverW said:


> there certainly are a lot of crap sellers on eBay.  It makes me angry every time I see a rca 6as7g being sold like it’s a 421a or 5998.



yes this!  kills me when i see people trying to sell GE as GEC tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 18, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> yes this!  kills me when i see people trying to sell GE as GEC tubes.


Shhhh Cowen may stop buying them from me if he reads this.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just received another version of a solid plate Melz, this one with dull gray plates instead of shiny black. It also has a round getter holder and the date code is 86. First I need to test it, re-solder it then test it again and then it goes into an Incubus for a first impression. I for one like to get a feel for how the tube sounds out of the box and more intense listening later.
> 
> Bass and mids are very good, the treble needs to improve for me to be happy with this tube. There are some red flags. Metal bass appears to have been re-crimped. No actual Melz logo yet it has the majority of the right traits. Purple lettering on the base is pretty sloppy, barely legible on date code. Pins are loose and already re-soldered apparently. Upper mids are starting to remind me of actual 1578's of this period.
> 
> ...



They might sound different if you turned them right side up.  Just sayin'.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Shhhh Cowen may stop buying them from me if he reads this.



Yeah, I'm really tired of having to paint that extra "C" on every tube you send me.  Seems like it wouldn't take all that long if you'd just do it while you're resoldering the pins.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 18, 2020)

The solid plate Melz is coming around, a few things about it were iffy, but I do not care. This tube is starting to sound pretty good. I doubt I will buy another at around $110 and a long wait. The mids might be at a slightly higher level than my 56 and 58's but it is decently balanced and quite musical. Bass does not blur the mids like some tubes and after maybe six or seven hours the highs are there. There still seems to be a bit of a ceiling but that has been elongated since early listen so that may continue to climb.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> The solid plate Melz is coming around, a few things about it were iffy, but I do not care. This tube is starting to sound pretty good. I doubt I will buy another at around $110 and a long wait. The mids might be at a slightly higher level than my 56 and 58's but it is decently balanced and quite musical. Bass does not blur the mids like some tubes and after maybe six or seven hours the highs are there. There still seems to be a bit of a ceiling but that has been elongated since early listen so that may continue to climb.


That might have the 78 Melz sound like the ones I had...maybe


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> That might have the 78 Melz sound like the ones I had...maybe


That may well be, by tomorrow I may be able to get a better handle on the sound. Right now it is certainly not causing fatigue. Very soon I will have two 63 Melz ready to go and a bucket of Fotons, a padded bucket.


----------



## sqitis (Dec 18, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> That may well be, by tomorrow I may be able to get a better handle on the sound. Right now it is certainly not causing fatigue. Very soon I will have two 63 Melz ready to go and a bucket of Fotons, a padded bucket.


Hahaha Love it! I got you something for your stable today as well.....

Oh and I got a pair of inexpensive RCA VT-231 Gray glass and they are kinda ehhh.....nothing bad but nothing great either.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Hahaha Love it! I got you something for your stable today as well.....
> 
> Oh and I got a pair of inexpensive RCA VT-231 Gray glass and they are kinda ehhh.....nothing bad but nothing great either.


Finding great tubes is never easy. I have plenty of RCA, Ken-Rad. Tung Sol, Sylvania etc that might rate 85-90 on a 100 point scale but finding the 95's or better is more my goal.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Finding great tubes is never easy. I have plenty of RCA, Ken-Rad. Tung Sol, Sylvania etc that might rate 85-90 on a 100 point scale but finding the 95's or better is more my goal.


Agree!


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Finding great tubes is never easy. I have plenty of RCA, Ken-Rad. Tung Sol, Sylvania etc that might rate 85-90 on a 100 point scale but finding the 95's or better is more my goal.


So true, @Paladin79. Just received a pair of Bendix 6V6GT / 5992 (adapters from @Deyan into Elise's 6SN7 socket)  and 1st listen is very positive. Thehus far they lack that last few percent of technicalities of the Melz '63's I'd had in previously this week, as the Melz were so well extended on both ends, mids just right, and offered great stage, separation and layering. That said, the Bendix bring a touch more euphony and are very enjoyable in their own right. I'm oping they'll improve over next hours and days as they were NOS. 

The Melz I received from @Paladin79 are a 95% for me, very special tubes and I know they'll be back in the rotation. The Bendix so far are not quite at that level but there is something about them that keeps me listening. So many tubes, so little time.


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> So true, @Paladin79. Just received a pair of Bendix 6V6GT / 5992 (adapters from @Deyan into Elise's 6SN7 socket)  and 1st listen is very positive. Thehus far they lack that last few percent of technicalities of the Melz '63's I'd had in previously this week, as the Melz were so well extended on both ends, mids just right, and offered great stage, separation and layering. That said, the Bendix bring a touch more euphony and are very enjoyable in their own right. I'm oping they'll improve over next hours and days as they were NOS.
> 
> The Melz I received from @Paladin79 are a 95% for me, very special tubes and I know they'll be back in the rotation. The Bendix so far are not quite at that level but there is something about them that keeps me listening. So many tubes, so little time.


I am glad you are enjoying them, I kept hearing a bit of background noise with no signal with them that was ever so slight, it turned out to be a Tung Sol 5998. I did not have that noise with the solid plate tubes so I kept blaming it on the 63's lol. Others who owned 63's never commented on this but then my Incubus is one of a kind and I thought it might have been a combination of parts I used in my amp. One day I hope to send you an Incubus to compare with the Feliks and maybe I can match up tubes so you are comparing apples to apples.


----------



## DenverW

Does anyone have experience with new production shuguang tubes?  I keep hearing how wonderful the black treasure or natural sound cv181 tubes are, but I’m honestly skeptical of new production tubes.  These cost about what good NOS tubes would cost as well...


----------



## sqitis

DenverW said:


> Does anyone have experience with new production shuguang tubes?  I keep hearing how wonderful the black treasure or natural sound cv181 tubes are, but I’m honestly skeptical of new production tubes.  These cost about what good NOS tubes would cost as well...


I've used a set of BT in my old SLP-98 and they were top end of middle sounding. They are definitely better than EH or new Tungsol but not as organic as Melz or some really good 40's NOS stuff. It will also depend on your system as well. They also seemed a bit warmer than Sophia Blue glass 6SN7.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finding great tubes is never easy.



My sincerest apologies to all.  I really didn't mean to buy _all _of them....somehow it just happened.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> My sincerest apologies to all.  I really didn't mean to buy _all _of them....somehow it just happened.


No I gifted you the 63 Melz, all else are humbled by its presence.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> No I gifted you the 63 Melz, all else are humbled by its presence.



No, all else are _scared_ by its presence. They fear ties to the Russian mob, and the possibility of having baseball bats taken to their pins.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No, all else are _scared_ by its presence. They fear ties to the Russian mob, and the possibility of having baseball bats taken to their pins.


What about nerve gas?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> What about nerve gas?


I am doing a final listen to a couple 63 Melz for @sqitis this morn, listening to an old Steppenwolf song, Snowblind Friend. Also for a wider range of sound, 3 on E by Vulfpeck.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> I am doing a final listen to a couple 63 Melz for @sqitis this morn, listening to an old Steppenwolf song, Snowblind Friend. Also for a wider range of sound, 3 on E by Vulfpeck.


Keep'em warmed up for me!! Can't wait to hear them!


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Keep'em warmed up for me!! Can't wait to hear them!


I usually have a lot of things going at one time, I am trying to fashion a Y splitter out of rosewood for headphone cables. This is in its earliest stages, I need to round the corners more and get rid of excess material. Right now it is also a bit wonky.  I did the braid but it is still loose till I get ready to permanently mount the splitter. This is litz wire 
inside mesh. Towards the end I will properly twist the wires going to the headphone cups.


.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I usually have a lot of things going at one time, I am trying to fashion a Y splitter out of rosewood for headphone cables. This is in its earliest stages, I need to round the corners more and get rid of excess material. Right now it is also a bit wonky.  I did the braid but it is still loose till I get ready to permanently mount the splitter. This is litz wire
> inside mesh. Towards the end I will properly twist the wires going to the headphone cups.
> 
> 
> .



That looks like about 12 gauge wire.  Hope it's stranded?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That looks like about 12 gauge wire.  Hope it's stranded?


Of course it is, high strand count litz. Without the mesh sleeve it is pretty tiny and easily damaged. I started to do 8 strand count with a clear jacket but remembering which wire is which when you braid was more work than I wanted to do. 

I was a little afraid a Melz 1578 took out my tube tester but luckily a tube inside the tester failed. Getter holder fell off causing a short so I will repair that soon.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was a little afraid a Melz 1578 took out my tube tester but luckily a tube inside the tester failed. Getter holder fell off causing a short so I will repair that soon.



What's the tube number that failed?  I might have one (or 20).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What's the tube number that failed?  I might have one (or 20).


6BN8 but they are not expensive, I have some on the way. I thought of asking you but figured I would buy some extras.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 20, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> 6BN8 but they are not expensive, I have some on the way. I thought of asking you but figured I would buy some extras.



Ahhh...the good old diode and two triodes all shoehorned into one little bottle.  Glad you found some, 'cause all I have is GE's (which would make your 707 sound terrible).   Pretty sure I put one of those GE's in @Ripper2860 's 700, but that was intentional.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> I usually have a lot of things going at one time, I am trying to fashion a Y splitter out of rosewood for headphone cables. This is in its earliest stages, I need to round the corners more and get rid of excess material. Right now it is also a bit wonky.  I did the braid but it is still loose till I get ready to permanently mount the splitter. This is litz wire
> inside mesh. Towards the end I will properly twist the wires going to the headphone cups.
> 
> 
> .


Damn those look like something I could use for speaker cables........LOL


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Damn those look like something I could use for speaker cables........LOL



Or feeding your main electrical panel from the substation.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Or feeding your main electrical panel from the substation.


It is late, maybe tomorrow I can explain wires. You guys are making my head hurt.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Ahhh...the good old diode and two triodes all shoehorned into one little bottle.  Glad you found some, 'cause all I have is GE's (which would make your 707 sound terrible).   Pretty sure I put one of those GE's in @Ripper2860 's 700, but that was intentional.


I believe I ordered some RCA's and the way USPS is handling packages now, maybe they will arrive one day. I also ordered the appropriate resistor in a 1% version.
Now I just have to repair a Chinese amp, finish a few things for @FLTWS then on to other projects including assembling the Cowen amp and re-capping my Cary.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is late, maybe tomorrow I can explain wires.



Mo' power, mo' bigger. Less power, less bigger.

Is there more?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Mo' power, mo' bigger. Less power, less bigger.
> 
> Is there more?


Well there is skin effect, that would be your body telling you to hold the other end of the soldering iron, many learn that quickly but...  And twisted pair, that would be you and a partner dancing to old Chubby Checker records.


----------



## DenverW

bcowen said:


> Mo' power, mo' bigger. Less power, less bigger.
> 
> Is there more?



There is also a direct correlation to beauty and sonic quality.  The prettier a cable is, the better it sounds.  Cables are not unlike other things in this way, in that the more attractive something is, the better it sounds.


----------



## Mr Trev

Quick question

National Union black glass - $31.95 USD?

Worth the email to see if they're actually in stock


----------



## DenverW

Mr Trev said:


> Quick question
> 
> National Union black glass - $31.95 USD?
> 
> Worth the email to see if they're actually in stock



Not a bad tube, but not an exceptional one either.  The older national union smoked gray glass tubes are better, imho.  They are a very lush tube.  Very...tubey, for lack of a better word.  I always feel that unless you're just trying to fill a need to spend a bit more for the better tube, or you'll just end up spending even more when you upgrade/


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 22, 2020)

DenverW said:


> There is also a direct correlation to beauty and sonic quality.  The prettier a cable is, the better it sounds.  Cables are not unlike other things in this way, in that the more attractive something is, the better it sounds.



Now the color purple sounds the best of all IMHO.    I happen to build all cables for my home setups and this is my personal choice. This is a cotton based mesh and as with many natural materials it is less subject to static. It is often used in ESD clothing.

I was also going to comment on the black glass National Unions, decent tubes but kind of middle of the road.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Now the color purple sounds the best of all IMHO.    I happen to build all cables for my home setups and this is my personal choice. This is a cotton based mesh and as with many natural materials it is less subject static. It is often used in ESD clothing.
> 
> I was also going to comment on the black glass National Unions, decent tubes but kind of middle of the road.


Yep love the purple cotton, definitely sounds the best in purple.....


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 22, 2020)

sqitis said:


> Yep love the purple cotton, definitely sounds the best in purple.....


You are a man of substance and great taste, unlike some I could name that adore a certain basketball team in North Carolina. 

I am taking a break and listening more to a grey solid plate Melz, it is getting better and better. It might look bogus but the sound is there for a Melz tube. Not up to 63 standards but well above middle of the road.


----------



## LoryWiv

sqitis said:


> Yep love the purple cotton, definitely sounds the best in purple.....


Especially if you are listening to Prince.


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Especially if you are listening to Prince.


I swear my loaner amp may be Purple Heart and maple, maybe matching interconnects.


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> There is also a direct correlation to beauty and sonic quality.  The prettier a cable is, the better it sounds.  Cables are not unlike other things in this way, in that the more attractive something is, the better it sounds.



In general I'm in complete agreement.  But there's always exceptions...like my wife. Aesthetically pleasing, but sonically fatiguing.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are a man of substance and great taste, unlike some I could name that adore a certain basketball team in North Carolina.
> 
> I am taking a break and listening more to a grey solid plate Melz, it is getting better and better. It might look bogus but the sound is there for a Melz tube. Not up to 63 standards but well above middle of the road.



Yes, we all know purple sounds best, but you kind of 'appropriated' it without filling out the proper paperwork or even submitting an application.  Out of due and proper respect for you none of us got our lawyers involved, but you shouldn't be bragging about it.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yes, we all know purple sounds best, but you kind of 'appropriated' it without filling out the proper paperwork or even submitting an application.  Out of due and proper respect for you none of us got our lawyers involved, but you shouldn't be bragging about it.


I do believe your lawyers are busy right now Bill.   Sqitis gets purple cables tomorrow, I will just go with his opinion. I am not sure my loaner amp will get past more than a couple people before someone offers me some serious cash, being purple and all with tiger maple.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do believe your lawyers are busy right now Bill.   Sqitis gets purple cables tomorrow, I will just go with his opinion. I am not sure my loaner amp will get past more than a couple people before someone offers me some serious cash, being purple and all with tiger maple.



Grrrrrrrrrrrrr..............

Fine.

Then Merry Christmas Happy Holidays Seasons Greetings have a somewhat reasonable weekend to you.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Grrrrrrrrrrrrr..............
> 
> Fine.
> 
> Then Merry Christmas Happy Holidays Seasons Greetings have a somewhat reasonable weekend to you.


And a happy Festivus to you sir. may your presents not contain bar-b-cue dry rub.


----------



## DenverW (Dec 22, 2020)

I'd like to publicly thank @Mr Trev for asking a question pertaining to 6SN7 tubes on this thread.  Well done, sir, it's always hard to forge your own path.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 23, 2020)

DenverW said:


> I'd like to publicly thank @Mr Trev for asking a question pertaining to 6SN7 tubes on this thread.  Well done, sir, it's always hard to forge your own path.


LOL ok here is a 6sn7 question. What currently produced 6sn7 is a favorite? I do like Psvane but there are others being made by the Chinese and Russians. Anything new that folks have tried recently? Oh yeah there is JJ out of the Slovak republic, I believe Jason at Schiit still uses those and prefers the sound to the Russian Tung Sols.


----------



## Mr Trev

DenverW said:


> I'd like to publicly thank @Mr Trev for asking a question pertaining to 6SN7 tubes on this thread.  Well done, sir, it's always hard to forge your own path.


Well, I did promise to one day ask a legit question instead of just making smart-ass remarks…
I just can't remember if it was on this thread tho.


----------



## bcowen

Today's shootout.

Left to right:
'63 Melz 1578 (gifted to me by some really nice guy, but can't remember his name  )
The original Lansdale-labeled 7N7 that became the Frankentube (made in the US by someone at some point in the past )
'52 Foton rib plate 6N8S

Power tube will be limited to a Bendix graphite plate 6080 for consistency. The tube I love to hate.  One of my favorites once it's completely warmed up, but those dang graphite plates take a good 20+ minutes to fully stabilize.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Today's shootout.
> 
> Left to right:
> '63 Melz 1578 (gifted to me by some really nice guy, but can't remember his name  )
> ...


Here are some test tracks for you:

3 on E  Vulfpeck, Antwaun Stanley

Amie 1988 remaster  Pure Prairie League

John the Revelator     Whitehorse

Carmelita remaster 2008   Warren Zevon

The Beast in Me                Nick Lowe

They have bass in them but try to listen to the other elements and not just declare the Foton the winner lol.


Maybe I have time today to set up an Incubus for Sqitis to hear, with a serious set of tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Here are some test tracks for you:
> 
> 3 on E  Vulfpeck, Antwaun Stanley
> 
> ...



I only have the Marilyn Manson subscription to Tidal. I'm cheap.    

Seriously, I'm limiting it to 4 songs, mostly just for best sonic memory with the longer warm-up / cool down time involved with the Bendix. Have to be ones I'm familiar with, and ones that I like (which is critical for assigning an accurate goosebump rating).


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I only have the Marilyn Manson subscription to Tidal. I'm cheap.
> 
> Seriously, I'm limiting it to 4 songs, mostly just for best sonic memory with the longer warm-up / cool down time involved with the Bendix. Have to be ones I'm familiar with, and ones that I like (which is critical for assigning an accurate goosebump rating).


I like four of the five songs I suggested lol, one is there because it covers the sound spectrum nicely.😺
Your tubes, your ears.
Oh and no Incubus testing today, raining here and we were being Covid responsible in my wife’s new shed and getting electricity there was iffy on such a day.

I can definitely listen to the Aaron Copland,


----------



## DenverW

Keeping us all in suspense.....


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 23, 2020)

DenverW said:


> Keeping us all in suspense.....


Since I own those tubes and designed the amp he is most likely using I definitely have my own opinions on outcome. If he uses a Darkvoice, or Lyr 3 all bets are off.🎅🏼


----------



## DenverW

I’m curious because all three of those tubes are new to me, and I’ve listened to a lot of tubes .  enquiring minds want to know!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

Well it is nearly Christmas and Mr Cowen might have started dipping into the egg nog early.

I mentioned the amp he might be using because the Frankentube does not do well in an Incubus amp, the sound is pretty much meh in my amp. I did re-listen to all three last night in a blind listen and scored all three. I do admit I can tell them apart blind but yet I was trying to be as fair as possible.

Score wise, rating 20 elements on each tube I came out with the following.

7n7 Frankie                            85       It scored fairly well in mids but not so much in upper bass or upper high range
Foton from 1952                     89        I chose a lot of music with bass so the Foton did well there but not so much lower mids,
63 Melz 1578                          94       accurate bass and best overall performance, highs that were incredible on Focal Utopias. If I had used Senn 650's it most likely would have scored closer to 90.

I might still choose the Foton with specific music but overall, IMHO the Melz would still be my choice for long term listening. Now if one day you folks were to find a Russian Melz tube with solid black shiny plates instead of perforated, yet all the other attributes of the 1578's, you would have happened upon a holy grail of tubes but once again I am only offering my opinion.

As far as bang for buck, 50's Fotons are still a great buy but not something I would leave in my amp for every day usage.

Merry Christmas all.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well it is nearly Christmas and Mr Cowen might have started dipping into the egg nog early.
> 
> I mentioned the amp he might be using because the Frankentube does not do well in an Incubus amp, the sound is pretty much meh in my amp. I did re-listen to all three last night in a blind listen and scored all three. I do admit I can tell them apart blind but yet I was trying to be as fair as possible.
> 
> ...



OK, so I got sidetracked.  That's never happened before, but this is still 2020 and all so apparently_ anything_ can happen.  

First off, I was using the Darkvoice 336 for this shootout. The Incubus is a far more resolving amp and logic would dictate it to be the better platform for this comparison. But...I'm getting ready to upgrade the capacitors in the Darkvoice (DV), and I wanted to get as solid an auditory baseline as possible before making the change. And that's part of the reason I wanted to compare these 3 tubes, both before and after the cap swap. Secondly, it's *me*, so logic doesn't apply regardless.  Thirdly, I'll have to agree with @Paladin79 that the 7N7 Frankie and the Incubus don't play well together. Although the Frankie does a better showing in the DV, it still finished dead last in this comparo. It is one of my favorites in the Schiit Lyr 3, and I daresay is still my _most_ favorite in the Schiit Vali 2, but for whatever reason it doesn't shine in either of these OTL amps.  Perhaps the voltages and bias point in the Schiit gear are more aligned with its sweet spot?  I don't know and it doesn't really matter, just saying that it isn't a top contender vis-a-vis the Melz or Foton in this scenario. 

The results between the Melz and Foton were not too out of line with prior expectations, but there were a few surprises.  The Foton has some extra energy or dynamic shading or perhaps _pronouncement_ in the upper bass. I call it the 'Foton Bump' and it adds a nice rhythmic quality (to my ears) especially with rock and metal.  A bit more sense of drive in this area.  And I hear this in all the amps I've tried it in, so it doesn't seem to be component dependent. Is it a deviation from neutral?  Probably. But I like it, and it's one of the trademarks of this tube that make it a favorite of mine.  In turn, the Melz is more defined and more resolving all the way through the bass. The Foton has a bit more punch, but bass notes are more believable with the Melz due to its better definition.  The Steve Vai piece is chock full of intentionally overdriven bass guitar notes. I was expecting the Foton would kick the Melz to the curb with this piece, but it was actually just the opposite. The Foton projected a bit more wham, but the overdrive sounds like it's just kind of distorted, where the resolution of the Melz make this overdrive come through as it was intended and made the whole piece more 'real.'  The Copland piece was another bit of surprise -- I expected the Melz to shine through with it, but that extra upper bass energy with the Foton gave a more visceral feel to the bass drum whacks, and made them sound more real. The Melz won on the Colin James track, mostly due to a larger and better defined soundstage, and better instrument separation when things got busy. With the Foton, things were kind of congested sounding in comparison, especially towards the end where all the players are jammin' hard.

So at the end of the day, the Melz offers higher resolution across the frequency spectrum, has a generally wider, deeper, and better delineated soundstage, and has a bit better harmonic depth, especially in the mids.  The Foton is more of a rock and roll tube...not as refined overall as the Melz, but a lot of fun to listen to with party-mode material.  I don't have any numerical rating system, and I'm not even sure how you'd assign a number (consistently, at least) to 'involvement,' or the ability to draw you into the music emotionally and make your foot tap or reach for the air guitar or have a tear stream down your cheek. I would expect the emotional factor is different for all of us anyway, so what might get me in the groove may leave you flat, and vice versa.  For me, there's a place for both tubes in the go-to box, and which one I listen to depends on what kind of musical mood I'm in.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

"I'm not even sure how you'd assign a number (consistently, at least) to 'involvement,' or the ability to draw you into the music emotionally and make your foot tap or reach for the air guitar or have a tear stream down your cheek. I would expect the emotional factor is different for all of us anyway, so what might get me in the groove may leave you flat, and vice versa. For me, there's a place for both tubes in the go-to box, and which one I listen to depends on what kind of musical mood I'm in."

Well first of all, one of my professors taught me that anything can be measured, even the most subjective things like attitude or willingness to cooperate etc. The point system allows me to make sure I compare many aspects of a tube, or piece of audio gear and not get swept up in one or two aspects and forget about others. Some fairly serious audio engineers helped set up the music and rating system. It is hard to argue what make ones foot tap and we are all unique. I am biased toward the Melz and my rating does not match up precisely with 7 friends who heard the same tubes, but the order of finish was the same and they rated the Melz a bit higher, and the Frankie even lower but that is in an Incubus amp. Eight is not a huge number and I will be happier with results when at least 50 are able to compare tubes.

Once the signal leaves one of my DAC's, or pre-amp I built every cable in the chain as well as the headphone amp I am using so of course I have certain likes and dislikes that go above and beyond some specifics or there would be no fun in listening to music. I also have the ability to measure how an amp or tube performs but that is more for design than listening pleasure, yet oftentimes they can go hand in hand.

In the end though, I do not believe my thoughts were that far apart from Bill's but my background is science so my descriptions will be different.


----------



## DenverW

Alrighty, you guys have me convinced.  Now I just need help finding the right Melz tube to try.  It's going to take a lot to pull me from 12au7 though .


----------



## UntilThen

Ah ha so this is where you all congregate. I can't come in here because once I do I'll never leave.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

DenverW said:


> Alrighty, you guys have me convinced.  Now I just need help finding the right Melz tube to try.  It's going to take a lot to pull me from 12au7 though .


I believe there were some 63 Melz on Ebay not long ago, I do not know the seller but that is my favorite year, and the year I gifted Mr. Cowen. You would think year to year, using what appear to be the same internal parts that they would all sound the same but that is not the case. If I find the listing for the 63's I will post it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...230235?hash=item28290a431b:g:4XgAAOSwUKxYeu1A

Here is one but I have no history with this seller, he appears to be using the same photo for a 56 and a 63 so both tubes show the proper internals.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Ah ha so this is where you all congregate. I can't come in here because once I do I'll never leave.


LOL, well at the moment it is on topic. We were comparing a couple Russian tubes.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ah ha so this is where you all congregate. I can't come in here because once I do I'll never leave.



This is the Hotel California of threads.  You're screwed.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, well at the moment it is on topic. We were comparing a couple Russian tubes.



Sorry I'm British biased. Don't mind the Danish or the Americans but I like Australian tubes the best. Ah there's also the German tubes which I love. Telefunkens !


----------



## DenverW

Paladin79 said:


> I believe there were some 63 Melz on Ebay not long ago, I do not know the seller but that is my favorite year, and the year I gifted Mr. Cowen. You would think year to year, using what appear to be the same internal parts that they would all sound the same but that is not the case. If I find the listing for the 63's I will post it.



Don't post it, cause @bcowen will just hoard them.  Subtly let me know with a wink wink nod nod.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

DenverW said:


> Don't post it, cause @bcowen will just hoard them.  Subtly let me know with a wink wink nod nod.


Bill would have started hoarding these long ago if the price was not so high.    Besides he has stopped buying tubes. He heard one of my solid plate 58's, they are really hard to find but I bought those for under $50 each. It is the only Melz I like better than a 63, the difference is slight.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Sorry I'm British biased. Don't mind the Danish or the Americans but I like Australian tubes the best. Ah there's also the German tubes which I love. Telefunkens !


What Australian 6sn7 equivalents are out there?  Also if you happen across any Telefunken LS-50 power tubes I need a set in the worst possible way lol.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-LS...125016?hash=item287b0cc018:g:ReEAAOSw3YJZT736

These are defective but check out the markings.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> What Australian 6sn7 equivalents are out there?  Also if you happen across any Telefunken LS-50 power tubes I need a set in the worst possible way lol.



AWV Radiotron tubes like these https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tube-x-...181414?hash=item1f1985bda6:g:kqsAAOSwDHtfqj3X

I'm gonna show you my Telefunken and Siemens and Tesla and RSD power tubes. They are priceless. They are for a custom amp I will be calling 'Berlin' .. you know the group that sang 'Take My Breath Away' ? Pretty much what these tubes does - take your breath away  . So here it is.. EL11, EL12 EL12N, EL12 spez.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> AWV Radiotron tubes like these https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tube-x-...181414?hash=item1f1985bda6:g:kqsAAOSwDHtfqj3X
> 
> I'm gonna show you my Telefunken and Siemens and Tesla and RSD power tubes. They are priceless. They are for a custom amp I will be calling 'Berlin' .. you know the group that sang 'Take My Breath Away' ? Pretty much what these tubes does - take your breath away  . So here it is.. EL11, EL12 EL12N, EL12 spez.


Very nice, are you designing said amp or someone else?

I am using some GU-50's in an amp of my own design to win a bet but if I decide to keep it, I definitely want to upgrade the power tubes with Telefunken or the like.

I will have to check with my local audio group to see if we have any of those Radiotron, we are trying to accumulate most any 6sn7 equivalent tube known to man to compare in a blind shoot out. Only what are considered the top 52 will be used.


----------



## UntilThen

Dang derail the thread again. This is the 6sn7 thread. I think I'll stay in Dog-Fi. Check out my German Shepherd there. As priceless as the German tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Very nice, are you designing said amp or someone else?
> 
> I am using some GU-50's in an amp of my own design to win a bet but if I decide to keep it, I definitely want to upgrade the power tubes with Telefunken or the like.



Are you kidding me? Designing amps - glurp ! That's not my profession. I'm a professional poker player.

Well you see 2021 is going to be very challenging in terms of what I want to get for my final tube amp. Yes it will be one final tube amp then I'm gonna just play golf and turn pro like Tiger Woods. Makes more money there.

So option one is:-
DNA Stratus because Donald told me there will be an improved amp that seats between Stratus and Stellaris.

Option 2 is to have Berlin build by a custom amp builder, builder to be decided. @L0rdGwyn may stand a chance but that depends on how he turn the DV336se into a SET amp. I kid him too much but he really can turn out some nice tube amps though I have not heard them. 

Option 3 is Auris Nirvana at nearly AUD$10,000 glurp ! Here's a pic of Nirvana driving LCD-4 with Qutest as source. Love this when I heard it last Sat at Minidisc. I didn't want to go home !


Now didn't I say I shouldn't have come in here? All these has nothing to do with 6sn7 lol.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> we are trying to accumulate most any 6sn7 equivalent tube known to man to compare in a blind shoot out. Only what are considered the top 52 will be used.



Hahaha good luck with that. Hope you don't go mad at the end of the blind test.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Are you kidding me? Designing amps - glurp ! That's not my profession. I'm a professional poker player.
> 
> Well you see 2021 is going to be very challenging in terms of what I want to get for my final tube amp. Yes it will be one final tube amp then I'm gonna just play golf and turn pro like Tiger Woods. Makes more money there.
> 
> ...


Nice meters, and decent woodwork, it even has a Corona virus shield.   

Anyway getting back to 6sn7's, I just ordered a Telefunken equivalent to a 6sn7, I will say more once I receive it but that could be at least six weeks.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> I just ordered a Telefunken equivalent to a 6sn7



Picture please.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Picture please.


Not yet, I will have to receive it first.


----------



## UntilThen

There's only so much you can milk out of a 6sn7, good as they are. In the Glenn OTL amp that I had at one time, the 6sn7 socket has seen some other nice(r) variants, specifically the 12v variants and of course pentodes running as strapped triodes. 

Sorry carry on.. this is the 6sn7 thread.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> There's only so much you can milk out of a 6sn7, good as they are. In the Glenn OTL amp that I had at one time, the 6sn7 socket has seen some other nice(r) variants, specifically the 12v variants and of course pentodes running as strapped triodes.
> 
> Sorry carry on.. this is the 6sn7 thread.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/RFT-6SN7-5692-NOS-NIB-Excellent-Testing-Value-Matched-Pair/164486617993?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item264c2a9b89:g:TcoAAOSw8-hfoCj2&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkfOCvCjTOBWK8pwriaolq5oT49ooqO7ojcjXd3Z6nndui19QaFFxgnGHoLtzyj10MAflUuqHXvx4s2v5IdeiyoXUtHIDxhI3B6d7Gs6Ip82D9UJYrntI0KD%2FgQxyB%2FjQNF1CgC823kc0lU2DX%2B9JNDXGJTwUPZotFmEeiAMmeiWpelYCuX8i7wiB4dWUiJp1kC8l%2BGxPgsMquk4PZJYijQxJJxMEerH7HTEfAveWphZTVOElzf2Kp%2FvEsQGKxDlTorZGxEQmNZmRwxQpnHljh1wNz3fNqK%2Fyd2ezsaJEdn26tqjpcEoXAb7J7Q9Qq1SiQG%2Bo7UpKPTuH16lBDYLCPbTqKKJ5GrDG4JvHupg%2FPqQ8LwZi7eIS%2BWC0nhRLKsg%2B3SqlASWBdMdobtjU%2FfdUgZ7Mh%2BE5Jb9eNOYIQhpPbDyPjU1OQ7408WeXuH82NmUaCTL%2B6rrSlaHsToiuNrEgJOKNPp%2FAfDZ1N2HIPDxcFGVupF23Q06hfNCe7gwdFBp4bfQ2QXp3P711vj7ITi5MJj8ea1cJfJa4UCmlge1m7F7KwBI2%2BGxvOB2Jd0xbdaW39L0ok2CyAFk0ZkCawCCoxav%2BEWhIT844zfXau%2FdJMjw7u2smR%2Bx19mftAaCw0VAtzS1uSIJcPUxqKWopAVFO8noMFiZttizC8BaIJykPCJrX1CaRP9qfnmRSibfwvwHHVvkEeRNTAP5Q67CQB6qmmaWA0jtyW1zc49NYrwgDw3hw%2BMo5mBobQY53xwSzStwze2uB5db%2FsKhMFkAo%2BypSZYw%3D%3D|cksum:164486617993e12c3ce200a24226a3c6126ea3cad617|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524

Here is a similar pair to what I just bought. They have the same appearance but different branding.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RFT-6SN7-5692-NOS-NIB-Excellent-Testing-Value-Matched-Pair/164486617993?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item264c2a9b89:g:TcoAAOSw8-hfoCj2&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkfOCvCjTOBWK8pwriaolq5oT49ooqO7ojcjXd3Z6nndui19QaFFxgnGHoLtzyj10MAflUuqHXvx4s2v5IdeiyoXUtHIDxhI3B6d7Gs6Ip82D9UJYrntI0KD%2FgQxyB%2FjQNF1CgC823kc0lU2DX%2B9JNDXGJTwUPZotFmEeiAMmeiWpelYCuX8i7wiB4dWUiJp1kC8l%2BGxPgsMquk4PZJYijQxJJxMEerH7HTEfAveWphZTVOElzf2Kp%2FvEsQGKxDlTorZGxEQmNZmRwxQpnHljh1wNz3fNqK%2Fyd2ezsaJEdn26tqjpcEoXAb7J7Q9Qq1SiQG%2Bo7UpKPTuH16lBDYLCPbTqKKJ5GrDG4JvHupg%2FPqQ8LwZi7eIS%2BWC0nhRLKsg%2B3SqlASWBdMdobtjU%2FfdUgZ7Mh%2BE5Jb9eNOYIQhpPbDyPjU1OQ7408WeXuH82NmUaCTL%2B6rrSlaHsToiuNrEgJOKNPp%2FAfDZ1N2HIPDxcFGVupF23Q06hfNCe7gwdFBp4bfQ2QXp3P711vj7ITi5MJj8ea1cJfJa4UCmlge1m7F7KwBI2%2BGxvOB2Jd0xbdaW39L0ok2CyAFk0ZkCawCCoxav%2BEWhIT844zfXau%2FdJMjw7u2smR%2Bx19mftAaCw0VAtzS1uSIJcPUxqKWopAVFO8noMFiZttizC8BaIJykPCJrX1CaRP9qfnmRSibfwvwHHVvkEeRNTAP5Q67CQB6qmmaWA0jtyW1zc49NYrwgDw3hw%2BMo5mBobQY53xwSzStwze2uB5db%2FsKhMFkAo%2BypSZYw%3D%3D|cksum:164486617993e12c3ce200a24226a3c6126ea3cad617|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524
> 
> Here is a similar pair to what I just bought. They have the same appearance but different branding.



I have owned some of these tubes in the past, they are very nice!  Were one of my favorite 6SN7s, very impressive internal construction as well.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

L0rdGwyn said:


> I have owned some of these tubes in the past, they are very nice!  Were one of my favorite 6SN7s, very impressive internal construction as well.


RFT stands for Rundfunk- und Fernmelde-Technik - a group of state-owned technology companies in the former German Democratic Republic (East Germany). This company produced valves for Telefunken and Siemens and made the famous Siemens EL34. These valves are of very good quality and have excellent consistency.

I had not heard one so I figured it was about time. The seller listed it as Telefunken but most likely built for Telefunken.

Oh and as far as amp design, I made some amps to show off the 6sn7 and associated power tube. I do not do Swiss army knife amps made for a variety of tube types. I prefer concentrating on one element as one might make a headphone amp,pre-amp, and amp compared to a receiver with a headphone jack and a lot of other functions.


----------



## DenverW

UntilThen said:


> There's only so much you can milk out of a 6sn7, good as they are. In the Glenn OTL amp that I had at one time, the 6sn7 socket has seen some other nice(r) variants, specifically the 12v variants and of course pentodes running as strapped triodes.
> 
> Sorry carry on.. this is the 6sn7 thread.


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


>



ROFL!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> RFT stands for Rundfunk- und Fernmelde-Technik - a group of state-owned technology companies in the former German Democratic Republic (East Germany). This company produced valves for Telefunken and Siemens and made the famous Siemens EL34. These valves are of very good quality and have excellent consistency.
> 
> I had not heard one so I figured it was about time. The seller listed it as Telefunken but most likely built for Telefunken.
> 
> Oh and as far as amp design, I made some amps to show off the 6sn7 and associated power tube. I do not do Swiss army knife amps made for a variety of tube types. I prefer concentrating on one element as one might make a headphone amp,pre-amp, and amp compared to a receiver with a headphone jack and a lot of other functions.



You mean those east-German RFT's are worth....real money?  I have a bunch of 12AU7's I need to get on Ebay quick-like.  Sonically they sit somewhere between a Philips ECG with below minimum GM and a GE with one or both triodes directly shorted.      To be clear, I've never heard the RFT 6SN7...speaking only of these 12AU7's I have.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean those east-German RFT's are worth....real money?  I have a bunch of 12AU7's I need to get on Ebay quick-like.  Sonically they sit somewhere between a Philips ECG with below minimum GM and a GE with one or both triodes directly shorted.      To be clear, I've never heard the RFT 6SN7...speaking only of these 12AU7's I have.


I am sorry, I am trying some stout aged in bourbon barrels that Sqitis gave me and I read your sentence as RFT yap yap yap and 12AU7, this beer at 14.7% alcohol would score a 93 on inability to pass a breathalyzer at this point in time.


----------



## DenverW

bcowen said:


> You mean those east-German RFT's are worth....real money?  I have a bunch of 12AU7's I need to get on Ebay quick-like.  Sonically they sit somewhere between a Philips ECG with below minimum GM and a GE with one or both triodes directly shorted.      To be clear, I've never heard the RFT 6SN7...speaking only of these 12AU7's I have.



It’s like Lorenz 12au7.  There are tons of meh junk stock ones, but then there are old, rare welded plate halo better ones that are some of the best ever made.  I’m always keeping an eye out for someone selling one without recognizing what it is...


----------



## UntilThen

DenverW said:


>



There's been some quality posts since I went to sleep again, specifically this because with this attitude, you will get something good out of 6sn7. 

I did roll a couple of good 6sn7 into my Studio Six - Ken Rad 6sn7gt, Sylvania 6sn7w metal base, Mullard ECC33 <------ you testing the ECC33 in the blind test too?


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RFT-6SN7-5692-NOS-NIB-Excellent-Testing-Value-Matched-Pair/164486617993?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item264c2a9b89:g:TcoAAOSw8-hfoCj2&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkfOCvCjTOBWK8pwriaolq5oT49ooqO7ojcjXd3Z6nndui19QaFFxgnGHoLtzyj10MAflUuqHXvx4s2v5IdeiyoXUtHIDxhI3B6d7Gs6Ip82D9UJYrntI0KD%2FgQxyB%2FjQNF1CgC823kc0lU2DX%2B9JNDXGJTwUPZotFmEeiAMmeiWpelYCuX8i7wiB4dWUiJp1kC8l%2BGxPgsMquk4PZJYijQxJJxMEerH7HTEfAveWphZTVOElzf2Kp%2FvEsQGKxDlTorZGxEQmNZmRwxQpnHljh1wNz3fNqK%2Fyd2ezsaJEdn26tqjpcEoXAb7J7Q9Qq1SiQG%2Bo7UpKPTuH16lBDYLCPbTqKKJ5GrDG4JvHupg%2FPqQ8LwZi7eIS%2BWC0nhRLKsg%2B3SqlASWBdMdobtjU%2FfdUgZ7Mh%2BE5Jb9eNOYIQhpPbDyPjU1OQ7408WeXuH82NmUaCTL%2B6rrSlaHsToiuNrEgJOKNPp%2FAfDZ1N2HIPDxcFGVupF23Q06hfNCe7gwdFBp4bfQ2QXp3P711vj7ITi5MJj8ea1cJfJa4UCmlge1m7F7KwBI2%2BGxvOB2Jd0xbdaW39L0ok2CyAFk0ZkCawCCoxav%2BEWhIT844zfXau%2FdJMjw7u2smR%2Bx19mftAaCw0VAtzS1uSIJcPUxqKWopAVFO8noMFiZttizC8BaIJykPCJrX1CaRP9qfnmRSibfwvwHHVvkEeRNTAP5Q67CQB6qmmaWA0jtyW1zc49NYrwgDw3hw%2BMo5mBobQY53xwSzStwze2uB5db%2FsKhMFkAo%2BypSZYw%3D%3D|cksum:164486617993e12c3ce200a24226a3c6126ea3cad617|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524
> 
> Here is a similar pair to what I just bought. They have the same appearance but different branding.



My goodness, I'm glad I don't chase 6sn7 anymore. These prices are outrageous. The AWV Radiotron 6sn7 quad he has there are also outrageous in price.


----------



## UntilThen

DenverW said:


> It’s like Lorenz 12au7.  There are tons of meh junk stock ones, but then there are old, rare welded plate halo better ones that are some of the best ever made.  I’m always keeping an eye out for someone selling one without recognizing what it is...



I think I started an awakening by talking about German tubes. Lorenz is a brand I played with when shopping for c3g tubes for my GOTL. I have a few RFT EL11 tubes. However IMO, Telefunken is the most prized of them all.


----------



## Mr Trev

UntilThen said:


> My goodness, I'm glad I don't chase 6sn7 anymore. These prices are outrageous. The AWV Radiotron 6sn7 quad he has there are also outrageous in price.



Outrageous indeed. The logo and printing look suspiciously pristine too. Does Bangy have a Vietnam affiliate?


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> Outrageous indeed. The logo and printing look suspiciously pristine too. Does Bangy have a Vietnam affiliate?



He's expanding his operations. He might have a branch in Canada.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow if you're chasing Tung Sol 6sn7gt bgrp, you're out of luck.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tungsol...brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219


----------



## FLTWS

As I've said before, I think we have reached the point where *U*sed *O*ld *S*tock will be sold as *N*ew *O*ld *S*tock with a premium price after after some fresh makeup or a complete face lift.


----------



## Dave01236

UntilThen said:


> Wow if you're chasing Tung Sol 6sn7gt bgrp, you're out of luck.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tungsol-Jan-CTL-Vt-231-6SN7-CV1988-Oval-Mica-Black-Glass-Pair/164118551225?_trkparms=aid=1110009&algo=SPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=20200220094952&meid=0cd1daf957ff4f44860678fe408129ff&pid=100008&rk=3&rkt=12&sd=174422886986&itm=164118551225&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=default&brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219



What a coincidence, 5 minutes ago I was browsing numerous websites for these since I am interested in buying a pair. I saw one pair on ebay for approximately the same price as this one. The pricing of vintage tubes is absurd these days, Especially on Ebay.


----------



## UntilThen

These are better alternatives. Paid only $99 for a new pair. TS 12SL7gt bgrp. You sure you don't want to do a blind test of this too @Paladin79  ? Pretty sure you can't pick out the difference between that and it's 6sn7 cousin.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> These are better alternatives. Paid only $99 for a new pair. TS 12SL7gt bgrp. You sure you don't want to do a blind test of this too @Paladin79  ? Pretty sure you can't pick out the difference between that and it's 6sn7 cousin.


ECC 33's yes, B65's yes, no 6 or 12 sl7's. When I say equivalent, we are also going through single triode tubes like 6j5's, 7A4's etc.

We have plenty of the Tung Sol BGRP's, they are out there if you shop around. I mainly built four identical amps and have supplied some of my own tubes, built cables, and helped with the test procedure. I am not the final say on which tubes are close enough to 6sn7's to be used.    We can only do so much right now because of the virus so much of this is moot till we can get together as a group.


----------



## UntilThen

Dave01236 said:


> What a coincidence, 5 minutes ago I was browsing numerous websites for these since I am interested in buying a pair. I saw one pair on ebay for approximately the same price as this one. The pricing of vintage tubes is absurd these days, Especially on Ebay.



Just ask @Paladin79 to build you an amp that use 12SL7GT and buy my pair for 1/2 price - I'll give you a discount for being on the same forum.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> We can only do so much right now because of the virus so much of this is moot till we can get together as a group.



You're getting together when it is safe? It's a long way for me to get to you guys. Perhaps you all come down under instead and at the same time you can visit the old AWV Radiotron factory. A piece of tube history !


----------



## Dave01236

UntilThen said:


> Just ask @Paladin79 to build you an amp that use 12SL7GT and buy my pair for 1/2 price - I'll give you a discount for being on the same forum.



I Appreciate the offer very much  but I already spent way too much on the current amp I am using, the Cayin ha300. I just wish I could tube roll a little bit more with this amp since it is compatible with only 6sn7, ecc32, 6h8c... I wish it could take 6SL7 tubes!! So I could buy a pair of those 12sl7's. They are very similar to the famous tung sol bgrp indeed.

Right now I am using the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters. In my amp their sound is similar to the melz tubes, so I enjoy them. Slight background noise in my left channel, but it does not bother me. With adapters sometimes you have to deal with slight noise.


----------



## Paladin79

Dave01236 said:


> I Appreciate the offer very much  but I already spent way too much on the current amp I am using, the Cayin ha300. I just wish I could tube roll a little bit more with this amp since it is compatible with only 6sn7, ecc32, 6h8c... I wish it could take 6SL7 tubes!! So I could buy a pair of those 12sl7's. They are very similar to the famous tung sol bgrp indeed.
> 
> Right now I am using the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters. In my amp their sound is similar to the melz tubes, so I enjoy them. Slight background noise in my left channel, but it does not bother me. With adapters sometimes you have to deal with slight noise.


Interesting choice of tubes and I have been known to run 6f8g's myself, which year Melz are you comparing them to?


----------



## UntilThen

Dave01236 said:


> I Appreciate the offer very much  but I already spent way too much on the current amp I am using, the Cayin ha300. I just wish I could tube roll a little bit more with this amp since it is compatible with only 6sn7, ecc32, 6h8c... I wish it could take 6SL7 tubes!! So I could buy a pair of those 12sl7's. They are very similar to the famous tung sol bgrp indeed.
> 
> Right now I am using the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters. In my amp their sound is similar to the melz tubes, so I enjoy them. Slight background noise in my left channel, but it does not bother me. With adapters sometimes you have to deal with slight noise.



Ha you come to the right person. My pair of Tung Sol 6f8g's with Poland made adapters are whisper quiet and they sound like Tung Sol 6sn7gt bgrp. I love these tubes. It was pointed out to me by my Greek friend and I can't remember his name now !!! Stavros !!! I am pretty sure that's what he's called. Also sold me a pair of NOS GEC 6as7g and when I say NOS, it's NOS.

Btw I came very close to buying the Cayin ha300. How do you like it?


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> You're getting together when it is safe? It's a long way for me to get to you guys. Perhaps you all come down under instead and at the same time you can visit the old AWV Radiotron factory. A piece of tube history !


We are over 320,000 in deaths in the US and certain parts of Indiana are hit pretty hard by Covid 19, so yes I play it safe. Your situation may be quite different.


----------



## shafat777

Whats the main difference between Sylvania VT-231 and Bad boys? I have a pair of Vt231s and was wondering if bad boys would be better or even an side grade...


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> We are over 320,000 in deaths in the US and certain parts of Indiana are hit pretty hard by Covid 19, so yes I play it safe. Your situation may be quite different.



Oh yes that is very sombre and no jokes here. I sympathise with you guys. Let's hope 2021 will be better.


----------



## UntilThen

shafat777 said:


> Whats the main difference between Sylvania VT-231 and Bad boys? I have a pair of Vt231s and was wondering if bad boys would be better or even an side grade...



A bit of history here. It's worth reading if you're interested in 6sn7.
https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


----------



## UntilThen

Note the article make mention of Sylvania 6sn7w metal base. This is a fav tube of mine. I bought it from Langrex for GBP175 and it's NOS. Here's a picture of it being used in my previous Studio Six. Selling the SS was a mistake.


----------



## shafat777

UntilThen said:


> A bit of history here. It's worth reading if you're interested in 6sn7.
> https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


Thanks for the good read. I might get a pair of bad boys just to add to my collection. But only at a fair price though.


----------



## UntilThen

I blame you @bcowen and @Paladin79 for dragging me in here. Now I have to drag my way out to the safer waters of Dog-Fi.


----------



## Dave01236 (Dec 26, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Interesting choice of tubes and I have been known to run 6f8g's myself, which year Melz are you comparing them to?



I am comparing them to the 63' Melz hole plates. I also have many, many 6n8s melz tubes with only 2 holes in the plates. I have years 1948-1956. I like the sound of the 48' one, year 52' comes very close. Fun fact : 6n8s melz from 1948-1949 do not have any holes in the plates. It does not affect the sound quality at all though, quite the contrary I enjoy very much the sound of the 48'. My favorite 6n8s melz tubes so far were made in 1948 and 1952. They sound almost identical to the real deal, the 1578 hole plates tubes. That's if you have a pair from 63' !! My matched pair from 80' doesn't sound as good, at least to my ears. If I had to pick between a pair of 1578 hole plates made in the 70's or 80's, or a pair of 6n8s melz made in 52', I'd pick the 6n8s melz 52'.



UntilThen said:


> Ha you come to the right person. My pair of Tung Sol 6f8g's with Poland made adapters are whisper quiet and they sound like Tung Sol 6sn7gt bgrp. I love these tubes. It was pointed out to me by my Greek friend and I can't remember his name now !!! Stavros !!! I am pretty sure that's what he's called. Also sold me a pair of NOS GEC 6as7g and when I say NOS, it's NOS.
> 
> Btw I came very close to buying the Cayin ha300. How do you like it?



I'm surprised that we not only have the same amp in our possession, but we also have the same adapters. I'm pretty sure my adapters were made in Poland as well. They are identical. I enjoyed very much the WA22 last year, before upgrading to the cayin ha300. I compared both amps yesterday, and I don't regret buying the cayin ha300 in June. It is a true beast. The wa22 is still an amazing amp for sure though. Even during my testing yesterday I still managed to enjoy very much the sound of this amp. But with the cayin amp it's different. Much different. The soundstage is huge, to me it sounds three times wider. The instrument separation is definitely better as well, the bass hits harder. Much harder. Accoustic guitars sound amazing with the woo amp, but with the cayin sometimes I just close my eyes and I just cannot believe what I am hearing. It is that good.

But I have to say, the tubes I bought, the Takatsuki 300B's definitely are the main factor in my amp currently. Without them, my amp would not be as good. I'd say they are 3 times better than the stock tubes that came with the amp. People compare them to the mighty western electric 300b's. I saw some ridiculous listings on ebay, something like $1500 for one takatsuki 300B.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I blame you @bcowen and @Paladin79 for dragging me in here. Now I have to drag my way out to the safer waters of Dog-Fi.



It's not my fault.  Nothing is _ever_ my fault. And where is @Ripper2860 when you need someone to blame?

But since you're here, might as well drag you kicking and screaming to Cat-Fi (where dogs know their place).


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> It's not my fault.  Nothing is _ever_ my fault. And where is @Ripper2860 when you need someone to blame?
> 
> But since you're here, might as well drag you kicking and screaming to Cat-Fi (where dogs know their place).



Omg what thread am I in now? I'm posting in so many simultaneously that I forget where I am in. Then I see these cats and dog sleeping. I am hypnotised now.

I'm still in pole position at 80. @Paladin79 has overtaken you at 5th with 20 and you and @L0rdGwyn are off the charts !


----------



## UntilThen

Dave01236 said:


> I'm surprised that we non-only have the same amp in our possession, but we also have the same adapters. I'm pretty sure my adapters were made in Poland as well. They are identical. I enjoyed very much the WA22 last year, before upgrading to the cayin ha300. I compared both amps yesterday, and I don't regret buying the cayin ha300 in June. It is a true beast. The wa22 is still an amazing amp for sure though. Even during my testing yesterday I still managed to enjoy very much the sound of this amp. But with the cayin amp it's different. Much different. The soundstage is huge, to me it sounds three times wider. The instrument separation is definitely better as well, the bass hits harder. Much harder. Accoustic guitars sound amazing with the woo amp, but with the cayin sometimes I just close my eyes and I just cannot believe what I am hearing. It is that good.
> 
> But I have to say, the tubes I bought, the Takatsuki 300B's definitely are the main factor in my amp currently. Without them, my amp would not be as good. I'd say they are 3 times better than the stock tubes that came with the amp. People compare them to the mighty western electric 300b's. I saw some ridiculous listings on ebay, something like $1500 for one takatsuki 300B.



Thanks for the feedback. I've been through a lot of tube amps. WA22 is only one of them. I once had the Woo Audio WA5LE with Takatsuki 300b tubes loan to me for 2 weeks to compare with my Glenn OTL amp. That was a great 2 weeks. Looking back, I had the best time of my life for the last 5 years. Didn't know I love this hobby so much but I do. Most of all, it's how good the music sound to me that matters most.

Here's a picture of the GOTL and WA5LE while auditioning them. 10th Feb 2018


----------



## Dave01236 (Dec 26, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I've been through a lot of tube amps. WA22 is only one of them. I once had the Woo Audio WA5LE with Takatsuki 300b tubes loan to me for 2 weeks to compare with my Glenn OTL amp. That was a great 2 weeks. Looking back, I had the best time of my life for the last 5 years. Didn't know I love this hobby so much but I do. Most of all, it's how good the music sound to me that matters most.
> 
> Here's a picture of the GOTL and WA5LE while auditioning them. 10th Feb 2018



Glorious looking amps. Candy for the eye!!! I own the Yggdrasil as well. I see no reason to upgrade, Yggdrasil is most likely the best Dac in that price range. I had the sennheiser hd800 cans a long time ago. I enjoyed them, their soundstage was very appealing to me. I mostly listen to rock/metal so I had to sell those and go for the Audeze LCD 2 headphones. It was a great decision back then. Now I have the he1000SE headphones, and once again I see no reason to upgrade. They offer 90% of the Susvara performance. Anyway at that price point, you're pretty much at the top. It is indeed a special hobby, I started with a modi 2 made by schiit audio and sennheiser 558 headphones. I didn't even own a dac during my teenage years. If you told the old me back then that I was gonna spend thousands and thousands in amps/headphones, I probably would've said : Why not buy a car? 

It is so addictive, once you get something better, guess what? 2 months later you want something better, once again.


----------



## bcowen

Dave01236 said:


> I didn't even own a dac during my teenage years.



Me either.  But I waited patiently each day for digital music to be invented.


----------



## UntilThen

Dave01236 said:


> Glorious looking amps. Candy for the eye!!! I own the Yggdrasil as well. I see no reason to upgrade, Yggdrasil is most likely the best Dac in that price range. I had the sennheiser hd800 cans a long time ago. I enjoyed them, their soundstage was very appealing to me. I mostly listen to rock/metal so I had to sell those and go for the Audeze LCD 2 headphones. It was a great decision back then. Now I have the he1000SE headphones, and once again I see no reason to upgrade. They offer 90% of the Susvara performance. Anyway at that price point, you're pretty much at the top. It is indeed a special hobby, I started with a modi 2 made by schiit audio and sennheiser 558 headphones. I didn't even own a dac during my teenage years. If you told the old me back then that I was gonna spend thousands and thousands in amps/headphones, I probably would've said : Why not buy a car?
> 
> It is so addictive, once you get something better, guess what? 2 months later you want something better, once again.



We have so much in common with our gear, it's frightening and I thought @bcowen is my long lost cousin.

After I bought Yggdrasil in 2017, I never look at another dac again because it's just golden to my ears. 2017 was when I bought Yggdrasil, Ragnarok, HD800 and LCD-2f from A2A. All within 2 weeks. The manager send me an email to thank me. 

Right now I've LCD-3f, LCD-X, HD800 and HEKSE is on it's way in the delivery by Sendle. Just sold off Verite but I might get anther one again later.

I started off with a JDS Lab o2/odac with hd650 in 2015 then I got a 2nd hand DV336se. That was the start of my love affair with tube amps.

Then followed:-
Feliks Elise
Feliks Euforia
La Figaro 339 - twice
Glenn OTL amp
ALO Audio Studio Six
Oblivion by Ultrasonic Studio

ss amps are:-
Ragnarok
Jotunheim
Burson Conductor V2+
Burson Audio Play

and 3 Sansui amps  

Ok that's enough.... still haven't had breakfast and it's 12 noon !!! @bcowen  it's your fault !!!


----------



## UntilThen

I wasn't kidding when I said I had 2 La Figaro 339. One to drive the left driver and the other right. You got to try that !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Omg what thread am I in now? I'm posting in so many simultaneously that I forget where I am in. Then I see these cats and dog sleeping. I am hypnotised now.
> 
> I'm still in pole position at 80. @Paladin79 has overtaken you at 5th with 20 and you and @L0rdGwyn are off the charts !



Grrrrrr......  First thing you're sleeping, and then you're sleeping again, and then without warning you're in the lead?  That auto-posting software isn't allowed at HeadFi, unless they changed the rules while *I* was sleeping. Dangit.

Fine.  But just as a friendly reminder, there's not much month left...

(I'm back to PM'ing myself *u*ntil *t*hen)


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Me either.  But I waited patiently each day for digital music to be invented.



When I was a teenager, I never heard of a dac. I was instead given this drum set to make my own music. The rest is history. I became the drummer for Led Zeppelin.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Grrrrrr......  First thing you're sleeping, and then you're sleeping again, and then without warning you're in the lead?  That auto-posting software isn't allowed at HeadFi, unless they changed the rules while *I* was sleeping. Dangit.
> 
> Fine.  But just as a friendly reminder, there's not much month left...
> 
> (I'm back to PM'ing myself *u*ntil *t*hen)



I'm at 86 !!! Going to be knighted by the Queen soon.


----------



## Dave01236

UntilThen said:


> We have so much in common with our gear, it's frightening and I thought @bcowen is my long lost cousin.
> 
> After I bought Yggdrasil in 2017, I never look at another dac again because it's just golden to my ears. 2017 was when I bought Yggdrasil, Ragnarok, HD800 and LCD-2f from A2A. All within 2 weeks. The manager send me an email to thank me.
> 
> ...



It's actually crazy Indeed. You will absolutely love the hifiman cans trust me. I do not look elsewhere for headphones. Okay maybe I did think about getting the focal utopia just because they are probably in the top 3 of the best cans in the same price range as the 1000SE. But I am NOT pulling that trigger !! Absolutely not. I hope not. Enough money spent !! 

I ALMOST got the ragnarok back when I ordered my mjolnir 2. I wanted a good upgrade to my Lyr 2. As you can see, I'm a big Schiit Audio fan. Since the Mjolnir is a tube amp it was a more fitting amp for me since I did like tubes very much. It all started with the valhalla for me. Yes, another Schiit product !!   

I forgot to say, I also have the sylvania 6sn7w metal base tubes in my possession. Well, not for long. I will ship them to a fellow headfier on monday. I was not a fan of the sound personally. I prefer 6f8g and melz tubes. Sometimes amps are very picky for tubes !!


----------



## Dave01236

UntilThen said:


> When I was a teenager, I never heard of a dac. I was instead given this drum set to make my own music. The rest is history. I became the drummer for Led Zeppelin.




If I remember correctly, I bought my first electric guitar not too long after getting my first DAC. Stairway to Heaven is a song I listened to so many times on different amps/dacs/headphones. I should really listen to it again soon. I'll have a blast listening to that song, it's been a while since last time I listened to it !!


----------



## UntilThen

Ok I've completely derail the 6sn7 thread. So I'll leave and walk off into the sunset. Bye guys. You were beautiful.  Please continue with your 6sn7.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 26, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> When I was a teenager, I never heard of a dac. I was instead given this drum set to make my own music. The rest is history. I became the drummer for Led Zeppelin.






LOL!  But how totally rude of them to cut you out of the picture like that.  Here...I restored it:


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  But how totally rude of them to cut you out of the picture like that.  Here...I restored it:


Thanks! It’s good to be recognised here. This will surely go into Rock and Roll Hall of Fame !


----------



## UntilThen

Dave01236 said:


> I mostly listen to rock/metal so I had to sell those and go for the Audeze LCD 2 headphones. It was a great decision back then. Now I have the he1000SE headphones, and once again I see no reason to upgrade.



Hmmm I miss this completely. So HE1000se was ok for you with rock? Forget about metal. It’s too progressive for me.

In that case, I can’t wait for the HE1000se to arrive. Its supposed tobe between 31 Dec and 7 Jan.


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> It's not my fault.  Nothing is _ever_ my fault. And where is @Ripper2860 when you need someone to blame?
> 
> But since you're here, might as well drag you kicking and screaming to Cat-Fi (where dogs know their place).


Now that boy don't miss no meals!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 26, 2020)

OMG.  That dog has had way too much pork BBQ. 😯

Seems to be nurture as opposed to nature given the girth of the kitty at the bottom of the pic.  🙄


----------



## Paladin79

Dave01236 said:


> I am comparing them to the 63' Melz hole plates. I also have many, many 6n8s melz tubes with only 2 holes in the plates. I have years 1948-1956. I like the sound of the 48' one, year 52' comes very close. Fun fact : 6n8s melz from 1948-1949 do not have any holes in the plates. It does not affect the sound quality at all though, quite the contrary I enjoy very much the sound of the 48'. My favorite 6n8s melz tubes so far were made in 1948 and 1952. They sound almost identical to the real deal, the 1578 hole plates tubes. That's if you have a pair from 63' !! My matched pair from 80' doesn't sound as good, at least to my ears. If I had to pick between a pair of 1578 hole plates made in the 70's or 80's, or a pair of 6n8s melz made in 52', I'd pick the 6n8s melz 52'.



Now what you have not mentioned are 56-58 with all the attributes of the hole plates but without the holes. I even ended up with one from the 80's without Melz markings. Other than the 63's those are my favorite Melz tubes and towards the top of any tubes I own. My guess is the factory ran out of perforated plates and used left over plates. 58 Melz is on the left.


----------



## Dave01236

UntilThen said:


> Hmmm I miss this completely. So HE1000se was ok for you with rock? Forget about metal. It’s too progressive for me.
> 
> In that case, I can’t wait for the HE1000se to arrive. Its supposed tobe between 31 Dec and 7 Jan.



Yes they are great on every genre of music for sure. Amazing bass and soundstage. They really rock !  


Paladin79 said:


> Now what you have not mentioned are 56-58 with all the attributes of the hole plates but without the holes. I even ended up with one from the 80's without Melz markings. Other than the 63's those are my favorite Melz tubes and towards the top of any tubes I own. My guess is the factory ran out of perforated plates and used left over plates. 58 Melz is on the left.



I said earlier I had year 1956 but I may have been wrong, if I am not then I barely used it since I can't remember how it sounded like. Maybe I should try to order some from year 56' - 58' if you have that sweet 58' in your favorites !


----------



## UntilThen

Dave01236 said:


> Yes they are great on every genre of music for sure. Amazing bass and soundstage. They really rock !



He1000se with amazing bass and soundstage ? I find that hard to believe. Count me a sceptic until I hear it !


----------



## UntilThen

Guys He1000se is a NOS 6sn7gt in case you didn't know. So don't boot me out.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Guys He1000se is a NOS 6sn7gt in case you didn't know. So don't boot me out.



Hope it's not a GE, or it's back to Dog-Fi for you..


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Hope it's not a GE, or it's back to Dog-Fi for you..



If you think about it - a GE is just one 'C' short of stardom. So why wouldn't you love a GE without the C ? 

Btw did you know that I started my IT career in GE fourscore and seven years ago? That's General Electric for you - without the Company. It's American not the GEC British.    Now I'll start a war.


----------



## Dave01236

UntilThen said:


> Guys He1000se is a NOS 6sn7gt in case you didn't know. So don't boot me out.



Of course, everyone knows its the first 6sn7gt ever produced, which is why it has a special name !


----------



## UntilThen

Dave01236 said:


> Of course, everyone knows its the first 6sn7gt ever produced, which is why it has a special name !



Now he's my friend. All of you remember that !


----------



## UntilThen

German shepherd at Dog-Fi is doing well with 5 likes. Needs more exposure.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dog-fi.460466/post-16061729


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> If you think about it - a GE is just one 'C' short of stardom. So why wouldn't you love a GE without the C ?
> 
> Btw did you know that I started my IT career in GE fourscore and seven years ago? That's General Electric for you - without the Company. It's American not the GEC British.    Now I'll start a war.



We've been through the 'C' thing already (probably while you were sleeping).   

My bro' in law has been a career GE guy, first in aircraft engines then playing with trains.  I still give him grief whenever one of my GE appliances dies, to which his usual reply is "which plane have you been in when a GE engine failed?"  Oh crap, now we're back to stewardesses.....


----------



## Paladin79

Dave01236 said:


> Yes they are great on every genre of music for sure. Amazing bass and soundstage. They really rock !
> 
> 
> I said earlier I had year 1956 but I may have been wrong, if I am not then I barely used it since I can't remember how it sounded like. Maybe I should try to order some from year 56' - 58' if you have that sweet 58' in your favorites !


Let me try one more time lol. The 56 and 58's I am talking about are identical to 1578's except without perforated plates. Same metal supports at the top, same bottom mica. Many of the older Melz have oval micas or mica supports at the top, those are not what I am describing here lol.

The first photo is a 58 and you can see the solid plates better than on my photo of the 56. What I am not talking about are these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-MELZ-6...202481?hash=item2af83a6331:g:QNkAAOSwoS9fvnB1

I have them, I have heard them, not the same thing. I sent a sample of a 58 solid plate to five people on here including @bcowen,@Ripper2860,@JKDJedi, @FLTWS, and @sam6550a. All but Sam had one of my amps with which to check out the tube and I hope to get him a loaner amp in the next couple months. All reports on the tube were fairly positive and many of these guys have the 63 perforated plates and other 1578's. I do not call this a 1578 because of the plate difference but that is the only difference.

If you are able to find these, PM me and I will make it worth your while. There is one version on EBAY right now but they do not have shiny plates, and they do not even have a Melz logo, I bought one and it looks like someone has added or reattached the metal base so I do not recommend them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Let me try one more time lol. The 56 and 58's I am talking about are identical to 1578's except without perforated plates. Same metal supports at the top, same bottom mica. Many of the older Melz have oval micas or mica supports at the top, those are not what I am describing here lol.
> 
> The first photo is a 58 and you can see the solid plates better than on my photo of the 56. What I am not talking about are these:
> 
> ...



Yes, the quasi-1578 (or should we call it the Mutant Melz ) is a different animal.  I actually preferred it to the '63 true 1578. Not a night and day kind of difference, but I thought overall it was more musically engaging than the '63.  And I prefer that '63 (true) 1578 to the regular Melz 6N8S (and I have several early '50's dates of those).


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 27, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Yes, the quasi-1578 (or should we call it the Mutant Melz ) is a different animal.  I actually preferred it to the '63 true 1578. Not a night and day kind of difference, but I thought overall it was more musically engaging than the '63.  And I prefer that '63 (true) 1578 to the regular Melz 6N8S (and I have several early '50's dates of those).


They are very rare. One thing others may not have noticed is they are dead quiet with no signal, I get a little background noise with the 63 with specific power tubes, never with the solid plate version of the 1578 but then I went overboard on my personal Incubus amp so others may not be getting the same effects. I am also getting better high frequency response than the 63, but it is slight. I can measure it and hear it on Focal Utopias but with other headphones, fuhgettaboutit.

Please note, Bill is not allowed to name this tube!!!!  

I was thinking more on the lines of "alien" 1578.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They are very rare. One thing others may not have noticed is they are dead quiet with no signal, I get a little background noise with the 63 with specific power tubes, never with the solid plate version of the 1578 but then I went overboard on my personal Incubus amp so others may not be getting the same effects. I am also getting better high frequency response than the 63, but it is slight. I can measure it and hear it on Focal Utopias but with other headphones, fuhgettaboutit.



You mean _your_  Incubus is better than mine?  That's just sooooooo not fair.  I'm telling Mom.  And you're probably gonna get grounded.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean _your_  Incubus is better than mine?  That's just sooooooo not fair.  I'm telling Mom.  And you're probably gonna get grounded.


Naturally I used wood that sounds better on mine, and I did not line the inside with Sorbothane like I did yours. 
Oh and I used store bought capacitors in mine, yours are comprised of tin foil and cat dander as I recall.

Speaking of the use of wood in audio. Years ago when folks were looking for a solid surface to set their turn tables on, the thing they could often find were butcher blocks.

Thick legs, some tops as thick as 8 inches, a very stable surface you could buy easily. I have seen a few made with solid cherry but generally it is maple. If you look at a Janka scale there are plenty of woods rated higher, even purple heart but...try to buy enough Brazilian rosewood or ebony, or Brazilian cherry to make such a table and it would cost a fortune.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Naturally I used wood that sounds better on mine, and I did not line the inside with Sorbothane like I did yours.
> Oh and I used store bought capacitors in mine, yours are comprised of tin foil and cat dander as I recall.
> 
> Speaking of the use of wood in audio. Years ago when folks were looking for a solid surface to set their turn tables on, the thing they could often find were butcher blocks.
> ...



Maple is the best sounding wood. Everybody knows that, right? And Sorbothane is great for, um, uh, um....crap. Can't seem to remember right now. Maybe it will come to me later. I'm sure it's good for something. Well, I'm _pretty_ sure it's good for something.  I think.  Just nothing related to audio.  Not that I have an opinion or anything, of course.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Maple is the best sounding wood. Everybody knows that, right? And Sorbothane is great for, um, uh, um....crap. Can't seem to remember right now. Maybe it will come to me later. I'm sure it's good for something. Well, I'm _pretty_ sure it's good for something.  I think.  Just nothing related to audio.  Not that I have an opinion or anything, of course.


I used Sorbothane to absorb vibration in the tubes used in Schiit Coaster amps on Jason's suggestion. They are headphone amps and a small pad is all you need. Originally I think the stuff was used for shoe bottoms or inserts lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Let me try one more time lol. The 56 and 58's I am talking about are identical to 1578's except without perforated plates. Same metal supports at the top, same bottom mica. Many of the older Melz have oval micas or mica supports at the top, those are not what I am describing here lol.
> 
> The first photo is a 58 and you can see the solid plates better than on my photo of the 56. What I am not talking about are these:
> 
> ...


From my notes the 58' sang at it's best with the GEC 6AS7G, and I also found these notes that I collected when I spent time with the 58' "*1578 is the Russian code for cyliner within a cylinder and the tooling, although visually similar, is very differnt - as is the sound."* For the 58' oddity not having1578 plates, was special. dependent on pairing was on par with the 63' (although my fondness of the 63' gave it the edge on some pairings, by a red hair) The 58' does have this spacious airiness about it that seems to elevate the top end in a non fatiguingway. Speaking of the 63' I need to find that tube..


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Wow if you're chasing Tung Sol 6sn7gt bgrp, you're out of luck.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tungsol-Jan-CTL-Vt-231-6SN7-CV1988-Oval-Mica-Black-Glass-Pair/164118551225?_trkparms=aid=1110009&algo=SPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=20200220094952&meid=0cd1daf957ff4f44860678fe408129ff&pid=100008&rk=3&rkt=12&sd=174422886986&itm=164118551225&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=default&brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219


I grabbed one for way less than that, way less.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> When I was a teenager, I never heard of a dac. I was instead given this drum set to make my own music. The rest is history. I became the drummer for Led Zeppelin.



Wikipedia says you died in September 1980   (John Bonham)


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Please note, Bill is not allowed to name this tube!!!!
> 
> I was thinking more on the lines of "alien" 1578.



I could offer my services? After all I'm Sir Tube A Lot. I know all the tubes and have the best names for them all. I suggest Guinevere, she's my favourite.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> Wikipedia says you died in September 1980   (John Bonham)



Listen Jedi, haven't you heard of Mk2 or Mk3? You know when a movie is so good, there will always be a sequel.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Listen Jedi, haven't you heard of Mk2 or Mk3? You know when a movie is so good, there will always be a sequel.


Like the best Xmas movie of them all..... Die Hard.


----------



## LoryWiv (Dec 27, 2020)

is that you on the drum kit, @UntilThen? It's actually son of Bonzo, and BTW this is an outstanding version, worth a listen.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> Like the best Xmas movie of them all..... Die Hard.



I was going to say Bad Santa but I won't....


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> is that you on the drum kit, @UntilThen? It's actually son of bonzo, and BTW this is an outstanding version, worth a listen.



My drum set is better. It's Sonor from Germany Berlin. Just like all good tubes are Telefunken from Germany.

Yes Nancy Wilson sang well and Bonzo Jr played well but not as well as me.

But it's this video of Foo Fighters, Kid Rock and Lenny Kravitz that impressed me, especially Lenny. That's me drumming at 5:41 of the video. Even Tracy Chapman is there !


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> I was going to say Bad Santa but I won't....


LOL..


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> My drum set is better. It's Sonor from Germany Berlin. Just like all good tubes are Telefunken from Germany.
> 
> Yes Nancy Wilson sang well and Bonzo Jr played well but not as well as me.
> 
> But it's this video of Foo Fighters, Kid Rock and Lenny Kravitz that impressed me, especially Lenny. That's me drumming at 5:41 of the video. Even Tracy Chapman is there !



Sorry @bcowen .. you just lost your _DUDE_ status to this guy..  This IS  the *DUDE*...  Nice.. I thought you were joking, insane mad skills there.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> Sorry @bcowen .. you just lost your _DUDE_ status to this guy..  This IS  the *DUDE*...  Nice.. I thought you were joking, insane mad skills there.



Are you talking about Foo Fighters, Lenny or me? I think the answer is obvious. I declare that Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates is the best 6sn7 there ever is. Period. Stop searching for others. Go get a pair if you can find a good pair.


----------



## Ripper2860

Bad Santa for the WIN!!!


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 27, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Are you talking about Foo Fighters, Lenny or me? I think the answer is obvious. I declare that Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates is the best 6sn7 there ever is. Period. Stop searching for others. Go get a pair if you can find a good pair.


I have a (oval micas) Tung Sol Vt-231 BGRP and a (consumer brand) Tung Sol BGRP, both sound the same, the VT-231 the stronger of the two, and yeah, it's excellent.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Bad Santa for the WIN!!!


LOL.. ok..2 to 1  ..anyone else want to vote in on this?


----------



## UntilThen

Ripper2860 said:


> Bad Santa for the WIN!!!



So says Billy Bob Thornton.

Is this the best ever 6sn7?


----------



## Ripper2860

A Sylvania Bad Boy tube given or received for Christmas can be referred to as a 'Bad Santa', so we remain 'on-topic'.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> I have a Tung Sol Vt-231 BGRP and one consumer brand Tung Sol BGRP, both sound the same, the VT-231 the stronger of the two, and yeah, it's excellent.



I'll be honest. I've not heard a TS 6sn7gt bgrp but I have heard the TS 12SL7GT bgrp which I believe has the same sonic signature and yes it was a favourite on my Glenn OTL amp.

Here I improvised and use 3 of the black diamonds together simultaneously and it brought the house down !


----------



## UntilThen

Here are my 4 favourite traditional drivers on GOTL. By traditional, I mean not those frankenstein creations that came after.

So here are:-

GEC B36 (I know I know this isn't exactly a 6sn7 but it's 12v and it sounds superb!)
Mullard ECC33 (this is is a diamond - love it !)
Tung Sol 12SL7GT bgrp (this is Bad Santa - according to me)
Sylvania 6sn7w metal base (superb ! - I can't tell you how much I love this tube)

Finally ZMF Atticus. What can I say. I miss it.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> I'll be honest. I've not heard a TS 6sn7gt bgrp but I have heard the TS 12SL7GT bgrp which I believe has the same sonic signature and yes it was a favourite on my Glenn OTL amp.
> 
> Here I improvised and use 3 of the black diamonds together simultaneously and it brought the house down !


It's a step above the Bad Santa's here...


----------



## UntilThen

Another shot of those tubes but this time with the inclusion of Mullard ECC35. I did regret selling off the GOTL because as far as tube rolling 6sn7 is concerned, it's superb. A good 6sn7 plus 6 x 6bx7gt or 4 or 2 x 6as7 / 6080 is the tour de force and retirement dream come true. Can't believe after all these years I'm still marketing GOTL but it's was the most fun time for me on this nutty journey.

and of course t's all related to 6sn7 because that is the driver tube the GOTL is designed for.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Another shot of those tubes but this time with the inclusion of Mullard ECC35. I did regret selling off the GOTL because as far as tube rolling 6sn7 is concerned, it's superb. A good 6sn7 plus 6 x 6bx7gt or 4 or 2 x 6as7 / 6080 is the tour de force and retirement dream come true. Can't believe after all these years I'm still marketing GOTL but it's was the most fun time for me on this nutty journey.
> 
> and of course t's all related to 6sn7 because that is the driver tube the GOTL is designed for.


seems like you roll more amps than tubes though...lol, must be nice. ,🙂


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> My drum set is better. It's Sonor from Germany Berlin. Just like all good tubes are Telefunken from Germany.
> 
> Yes Nancy Wilson sang well and Bonzo Jr played well but not as well as me.
> 
> But it's this video of Foo Fighters, Kid Rock and Lenny Kravitz that impressed me, especially Lenny. That's me drumming at 5:41 of the video. Even Tracy Chapman is there !



Who is the bushy haired dude who plays lead on Whole Lotta Love?


----------



## DenverW

12 volters have no place here!  Take your heathen 12v tubes away from my innocent 6SN7!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 27, 2020)

I have been busily building an amp (dubbed the Cowen for now), once the glue dries, I can do final finish on the amp and begin final assembly. All connectors have been made to fit before I can get to the final stages. This is use of GU-50's and 6BX6's. Wood is tiger maple set between strips of white walnut. Dual ladder pots, 15 watt class A SET.


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Who is the bushy haired dude who plays lead on Whole Lotta Love?


that was a sick solo.. (had a bad boy dangling around his neck too)


----------



## DenverW

Paladin79 said:


> I have been busily building an amp (dubbed the Cowen for now), once the glue dries, I can do final finish on the amp and begin final assembly. All connectors have been made to fit before I can get to the final stages. This is use of GU-50's and 6BX6's. Wood is tiger maple set between strips of white walnut.



The cowen?  Are you TRYING to set me up for one liners?


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> seems like you roll more amps than tubes though...lol, must be nice. ,🙂



Yes it starts off with foreplay a lot... I mean tube rolling

Then I got into the real thing and that's amp rolling except I would keep a couple of amps with me at any one time so I can roll as many tubes as I want simultaneously and and plug my headphone jacks into any of the amps and then there's headphone rolling   

Oct 2019 was the worst because these 3 tube amps have as many tube combinations as the Rubik's cube. Literally 2 weeks could go by with nothing else to do but tube, amp and headphones rolling. I had 5 headphones at that time. 

Top to bottom - WA22, Studio Six, Yggdrasil, Glenn OTL amp.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> I have been busily building an amp (dubbed the Cowen for now), once the glue dries, I can do final finish on the amp and begin final assembly. All connectors have been made to fit before I can get to the final stages. This is use of GU-50's and 6BX6's. Wood is tiger maple set between strips of white walnut.



I'm interested to see how this turns out because I love tube amps.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Yes it starts off with foreplay a lot... I mean tube rolling
> 
> Then I got into the real thing and that's amp rolling except I would keep a couple of amps with me at any one time so I can roll as many tubes as I want simultaneously and and plug my headphone jacks into any of the amps and then there's headphone rolling
> 
> ...


Great hobby. My friends and family don't get it, (tubes?) but half the interest is music and the other half is the tech behind it all. Who would of thought 80 year old tubes would be the thing in 2020 and beyond.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> I'm interested to see how this turns out because I love tube amps.


The cabinet takes a while and this gives me a little practice incorporating woods before I do that on a loaner Incubus amp. Maybe spalted maple in between purple heart like this charcuterie board I made. The looks of the amp are important to me, I rarely use metal except for top plates.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> The cowen?  Are you TRYING to set me up for one liners?


LOL hey this one was to win a bet, when that is over I will use some serious tubes and most likely change the name. I am not sure how good this one will sound and Schiit was already taken.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Who is the bushy haired dude who plays lead on Whole Lotta Love?



You mean the one with sunglasses? That's Lenny Kravitz. 

Here's his more well known song.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> The cabinet takes a while and this gives me a little practice incorporating woods before I do that on a loaner Incubus amp. Maybe spalted maple in between purple heart like this charcuterie board I made. The looks of the amp are important to me, I rarely use metal except for top plates.



Wow I'm a sucker for wood, specifically beautifully finished wood and what you have there is superb ! I want a tube amp based on that.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> You mean the one with sunglasses? That's Lenny Kravitz.
> 
> Here's his more well known song.



No, I know that's Lenny singing but another dude at far right of the stage played the final lead guitar solo on that same track, Whole Lotta Love, can't quite place him....


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Sorry @bcowen .. you just lost your _DUDE_ status to this guy..  This IS  the *DUDE*...  Nice.. I thought you were joking, insane mad skills there.



You must have missed it in the other thread.  I'm Dude's _assistant_ now. But always better to be an assistant than a nothing. I think.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> No, I know that's Lenny singing but another dude at far right of the stage played the final lead guitar solo on that same track, Whole Lotta Love, can't quite place him....



Oh yes I see him. I think that's @bcowen after a few drinks.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You must have missed it in the other thread.  I'm Dude's _assistant_ now. But always better to be an assistant than a nothing. I think.



I'm totally confused now. Just who is the Dude? Or do you mean the Duke? and yes Bcowen is my assistant and also drives my golf cart.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL hey this one was to win a bet, when that is over I will use some serious tubes and most likely change the name. I am not sure how good this one will sound and Schiit was already taken.



Well if it sounds really, _really_ good (like paradigm-shifting, new holy grail-ish, redefining the state of audio art, etc), then just rename it the _Mr._ Cowen. Easy!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well if it sounds really, _really_ good (like paradigm-shifting, new holy grail-ish, redefining the state of audio art, etc), then *just rename it the Mr. Cowen*. Easy!



Hmmm why do I think that's not a good idea? I think it should be name UntilThen because there will be another one after that !

Alright exhausted now after posting on multiple threads. I'm off to mow the front lawn. I did the back lawn yesterday !


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'm totally confused now. Just who is the Dude? Or do you mean the Duke? and yes Bcowen is my assistant and also drives my golf cart.



I feel good that I still have _some_ value after firing myself as your landscaper.  But don't be concerned about any severance pay since I self-terminated before I started.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Oh yes I see him. I think that's @bcowen after a few drinks.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> I'm totally confused now. Just who is the Dude? Or do you mean the Duke? and yes Bcowen is my assistant and also drives my golf cart.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well if it sounds really, _really_ good (like paradigm-shifting, new holy grail-ish, redefining the state of audio art, etc), then just rename it the _Mr._ Cowen. Easy!


Ok send me a matched pair of LS 50 Telefunkens and I will add Mr. to the amp.... for a week.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok send me a matched pair of LS 50 Telefunkens and I will add Mr. to the amp.... for a week.



But that would leave me without a dispenser for my Q-Tips.  Oh, the quandary.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> It's not my fault.  Nothing is _ever_ my fault. And where is @Ripper2860 when you need someone to blame?
> 
> But since you're here, might as well drag you kicking and screaming to Cat-Fi (where dogs know their place).


You might think about decreasing that shreaded GE tube food topping. Animals looking a bit corpulent.


----------



## cgb3

JKDJedi said:


> Like the best Xmas movie of them all..... Die Hard.


Which was a great movie, if for no other reason than to resurrect the homily "Yippee Ki-Yai ... "


----------



## bcowen

cgb3 said:


> You might think about decreasing that shreaded GE tube food topping. Animals looking a bit corpulent.



ROFL!  The photo distorts things a bit....the dog is actually only about 5 lbs heavy per her last vet visit a couple months ago.  The cat?  Well, no distortion there...she's a hippo dressed up like a cat. But even if I didn't like her I wouldn't feed her GE...that'd just be cruel.


----------



## UntilThen

I come back from mowing the lawn and the thread's still here.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok send me a matched pair of LS 50 Telefunkens and I will add Mr. to the amp.... for a week.



For some reason, I thought you meant KEF LS50.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> For some reason, I thought you meant KEF LS50.


Yeah I get that when I search for the tubes. What I am stuck with for now are Russian made GU-50's and they can be had for very little money.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah I get that when I search for the tubes. What I am stuck with for now are Russian made GU-50's and they can be had for very little money.



You mean this? Strange looking tubes.Very interesting. Russian power pentode capable of 50 watts !!!

Just a thought. Maybe you should start a thread to discuss all kinds of tubes or your tube amp creations. There will be interest.


----------



## Mr Trev

UntilThen said:


> Just a thought. Maybe you should start a thread to discuss all kinds of tubes or your tube amp creations. There will be interest.



I'd subscribe.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> You mean this? Strange looking tubes.Very interesting. Russian power pentode capable of 50 watts !!!
> 
> Just a thought. Maybe you should start a thread to discuss all kinds of tubes or your tube amp creations. There will be interest.


There is not a lot to discuss, I do not give out schematics or BOM's. As I said, this was a bet and those tubes were handed to me along with some other parts I need to use. This will most likely be one of a kind. I am using pentodes as triodes by the way.

This is Finnegan trying to steal rubber bands from 6sn7 tube boxes:


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> I'd subscribe.



I'd subscribe too. I always knew that Canadians and Australians have much in common.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> I'd subscribe too. I always knew that Canadians and Australians have much in common.


Something else Canadians and Australians have in common:

*Euchre* was played in North America starting in the early 19th century, but originated in Alsace, under the name “Juckerspiel.” The game was carried to the New World by German-speaking immigrants. Some of the game's other terms also come from German.

I used to play tournaments against Australians and Canadians, many tournaments were live in Canada. My partner was often a Russian mathematician from Belaruse. She is wicked smart and now a US resident. I also played poker and chess, two of three games considered games of skill.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> There is not a lot to discuss, I do not give out schematics or BOM's. As I said, this was a bet and those tubes were handed to me along with some other parts I need to use. This will most likely be one of a kind. I am using pentodes as triodes by the way.
> 
> This is Finnegan trying to steal rubber bands from 6sn7 tube boxes:



Think of it as a place we all can wallow in amp envy


----------



## bl4scott

Quick question for you guys.  Is it common for a tube to have a low level hum when nothing is playing?  Picked up a  Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT / VT-231 which sounds good so far except for the hum.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Think of it as a place we all can wallow in amp envy


I will consider it but I have to be careful because I am a member of the trade here so I do have some restrictions. I can talk freely about some things and not others. I do talk about specific tubes for my amps in 6sn7 and 6as7g threads. I am on a couple threads here concerned with amp building but I really do not want to build that many amps for others, I have helped friends mostly.


----------



## Paladin79

bl4scott said:


> Quick question for you guys.  Is it common for a tube to have a low level hum when nothing is playing?  Picked up a  Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT / VT-231 which sounds good so far except for the hum.


Generally that is not normal, I believe I may have loaned a couple of those to Sqitis and I doubt he gets hum nor did I. You might want to try re-soldering the pins if you have those capabilities. If you do not, I would help at no charge.


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> Think of it as a place we all can wallow in amp envy



and where I can bounce my jokes off @bcowen . I like him I do. I wouldn't have talk so much if not for him.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Something else Canadians and Australians have in common:
> 
> *Euchre* was played in North America starting in the early 19th century, but originated in Alsace, under the name “Juckerspiel.” The game was carried to the New World by German-speaking immigrants. Some of the game's other terms also come from German.
> 
> I used to play tournaments against Australians and Canadians, many tournaments were live in Canada. My partner was often a Russian mathematician from Belaruse. She is wicked smart and now a US resident. I also played poker and chess, two of three games considered games of skill.



What the...  I've not heard of Euchre before. I think I will stick to poker.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> and where I can bounce my jokes off @bcowen . I like him I do. I wouldn't have talk so much if not for him.


I kid with Bill but he has been most helpful with tubes so I gifted him one of my Incubus amps. I probably spent $1,000 setting him up with a 6sn7 challenge but it was worth it to see his skills in action. There are plenty of people who brag about their abilities but Bill is one of the few who can back them up. Now he still has not proven to me that he can hear a difference in maple shelves vs other wood, or sorbothane being in a room so I will let those things pass.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> What the...  I've not heard of Euchre before. I think I will stick to poker.


Do you play online as well as in games with real people? Were you kidding about being a professional poker player?


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Do you play online as well as in games with real people? Were you kidding about being a professional poker player?



Of course not. I'd be broke by now if I am a poker player. Safer to spend my money on amps, amps and more amps. Sonics from Ultrasonic Studio has just shown me a few sneak preview photos of his next creation. I am impressed ! I am sworn to secrecy until it's reviewed.


----------



## bl4scott

Paladin79 said:


> Generally that is not normal, I believe I may have loaned a couple of those to Sqitis and I doubt he gets hum nor did I. You might want to try re-soldering the pins if you have those capabilities. If you do not, I would help at no charge.



I appreciate the offer for the help.  It was something I picked up off ebay for $35.00 so not sure if it is worth the effort.  For the price, is it worth keeping or fixing?


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Of course not. I'd be broke by now if I am a poker player. Safer to spend my money on amps, amps and more amps. Sonics from Ultrasonic Studio has just shown me a few sneak preview photos of his next creation. I am impressed ! I am sworn to secrecy until it's reviewed.


It is not always easy to judge emotion in the written word so I was curious. lol  I definitely discounted your ability to be another Tiger Woods unless you had great training from the age of four.   There is also a great deal of difference in online play compared to sitting down with individuals.


----------



## Paladin79

bl4scott said:


> I appreciate the offer for the help.  It was something I picked up off ebay for $35.00 so not sure if it is worth the effort.  For the price, is it worth keeping or fixing?


I consider it an ok tube but nothing spectacular. I have access to most any VT-231's made and the Raytheon is not one of my favorites.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> It is not always easy to judge emotion in the written word so I was curious. lol  I definitely discounted your ability to be another Tiger Woods unless you had great training from the age of four.   There is also a great deal of difference in online play compared to sitting down with individuals.



Guess I have a deadpan sense of humour. I like golf, just wish I'm like Tiger Woods. However I have a good caddy in @bcowen, he will help me achieve that if he doesn't drive our cart into the lake.


----------



## bl4scott

Paladin79 said:


> I consider it an ok tube but nothing spectacular. I have access to most any VT-231's made and the Raytheon is not one of my favorites.



I am trying to add the right ones to my small but growing collection.   What are your impressions of the RCA JAN 6SN7GT VT 231?  I am eyeing a Melz per all of the feedback here.  Is there a specific year of Ken Rad that is recommended?


----------



## Paladin79

bl4scott said:


> I am trying to add the right ones to my small but growing collection.   What are your impressions of the RCA JAN 6SN7GT VT 231?  I am eyeing a Melz per all of the feedback here.  Is there a specific year of Ken Rad that is recommended?


There are some black glass Ken Rad VT-231's I really like, I will try to find a photo, there are a couple versions I have seen but I prefer one over the other. I like RCA and Sylvania VT-231's but rate the black glass Ken-rads a bit higher, more musical IMHO. In many of my blind tube setups, the black glass Ken-Rad rated quite high. @bcowen  had not heard one so he could not pick it out of 8 tubes I sent him, but as I recall he really liked it.


----------



## UntilThen

bl4scott said:


> I am trying to add the right ones to my small but growing collection.   What are your impressions of the RCA JAN 6SN7GT VT 231?  I am eyeing a Melz per all of the feedback here.  Is there a specific year of Ken Rad that is recommended?



That's the Ken Rad that I like. The black glass ones. What year? haha...I'll leave that to paladin or bcowen.

It's the left most tube on the amp. Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> There are some black glass Ken Rad VT-231's I really like, I will try to find a photo, there are a couple versions I have seen but I prefer one over the other. I like RCA and Sylvania VT-231's but rate the black glass Ken-rads a bit higher, more musical IMHO. In many of my blind tube setups, the black glass Ken-Rad rated quite high. @bcowen  had not heard one so he could not pick it out of 8 tubes I sent him, but as I recall he really liked it.



He just read my mind regarding the Ken Rad black glass. Gosh I miss that amp and all the tubes that I sold together with it. But time marches on. I'm onto tubes such as 6P36S


----------



## UntilThen

Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass are also featured on my WA22. Lovely bass and warmth but still very clear.


----------



## UntilThen

bl4scott said:


> I am trying to add the right ones to my small but growing collection.   What are your impressions of the RCA JAN 6SN7GT VT 231?  I am eyeing a Melz per all of the feedback here.  Is there a specific year of Ken Rad that is recommended?



Should try to get the Sylvania 6sn7w metal base to your small and growing collection. Super clarity and details with great soundstage. Another of my fav 6sn7 that has left me. That's the chrome tube on the left. Fortunately Studio Six uses only one 6sn7.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass are also featured on my WA22. Lovely bass and warmth but still very clear.


You have the version Black Glass Ken Rad I prefer as best I can tell. Here are four of the eight tubes I sent Bill, the bet was that he could pick a GE from the tubes I sent.
The black glass is going into 4968, to its right is a grey glass RCA, but the most interesting tube is on the far left.That is the glorious 1956 Melz, solid plate with most traits of the 1578. I pulled that tube and did not send it on to Jason at Schiit because Bill did not like it. I kept listening and wondering why he did not like it, then I bought 58's that look identical and sound identical to those who have heard them lol. I have many tubes I would sell or maybe give away but never that 56, it is my favorite tube.


----------



## UntilThen

Guess my interest with 6sn7 died when I sold off these 2 lovely amps but here's 2 more 6sn7 that I like.

There's also this Brimar 6sn7gt black glass. Love it.


And this Mullard ECC33


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> The black glass is going into 4968, to its right is a grey glass RCA, but the most interesting tube is on the far left.That is the glorious 1956 Melz, solid plate with most traits of the 1578.



I still have a pair of RCA grey glass but I am not so fond of it. Warm tone. If I still have those amps, I would have experimented with Melz. These Russian 6sn7 can be very expensive.


----------



## UntilThen

The 2 amps side by side. Probably the most interesting point of my head-fi journey but the future looks ever more interesting with more tube amps on the horizon. I should stop soon though. There will be just one more tube amp then the final curtain for me. I'll stop chasing tube amps. I promise bcowen that !


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> I still have a pair of RCA grey glass but I am not so fond of it. Warm tone. If I still have those amps, I would have experimented with Melz. These Russian 6sn7 can be very expensive.


You have to be pretty careful buying the Russian tubes and many Russians will try to convince you all Melz are worth $100 up, it is specific 1578 style tubes you should watch for, I own many but my favorite year is the 63 on the perforated plate. Solid plates sound better to me but they are extremely rare, I watched for them for six months before finding a few 58's.


----------



## UntilThen

If you told me I'd be this involved when I started in 2015, I wouldn't have believe you.  So it's probably karma that I pick up a solid state amp yesterday - Questyle CMA Twelve - maybe a sign that I should be walking away from tubes haha.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> If you told me I'd be this involved when I started in 2015, I wouldn't have believe you.  So it's probably karma that I pick up a solid state amp yesterday - Questyle CMA Twelve - maybe a sign that I should be walking away from tubes haha.


I spent many years with solid state amps but now they are not for me. I am trying to replicate sounds I heard many years ago with tubes and highly efficient speakers which are less common now.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> You have the version Black Glass Ken Rad I prefer as best I can tell. Here are four of the eight tubes I sent Bill, the bet was that he could pick a GE from the tubes I sent.
> The black glass is going into 4968, to its right is a grey glass RCA, but the most interesting tube is on the far left.That is the glorious 1956 Melz, solid plate with most traits of the 1578. I pulled that tube and did not send it on to Jason at Schiit because Bill did not like it. I kept listening and wondering why he did not like it, then I bought 58's that look identical and sound identical to those who have heard them lol. I have many tubes I would sell or maybe give away but never that 56, it is my favorite tube.



Did you ever manage to wrestle those tubes out of their… tubes? Or are they trapped for the ages?


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> The 2 amps side by side. Probably the most interesting point of my head-fi journey but the future looks ever more interesting with more tube amps on the horizon. I should stop soon though. There will be just one more tube amp then the final curtain for me. I'll stop chasing tube amps. I promise bcowen that !


Bill wants that GE on far left of the Six. It's not like me to tease someone I don't really know but you all make it look so appealing. Hope he has thick skin and broad shoulders...


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

Mr Trev said:


> Did you ever manage to wrestle those tubes out of their… tubes? Or are they trapped for the ages?


I just got one out, but getting the hot glue off of it will take a while. Some are still in PVC. It took me 15 minutes with a professional heat gun, I finally had to soften the pvc and cut it away. There is no way anyone could tamper with them. On two points I used sealing wax with an impression from an intaglio signet ring. That melted long before the tube was released lol. I had a 1578 Melz in one and I lost track of the year, it was a 1976.

The Ken-Rad black glass vt 231 is in an Incubus amp right now, still in pvc. Great detail and warmth I can listen to this tube for quite a while.


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Bill wants that GE on far left of the Six. It's not like me to tease someone I don't really know but you all make it look so appealing. Hope he has thick skin and broad shoulders...


That GE 6sn7 is the stock driver tube that came Studio Six. Not sure if I gave it away with the sale or kept it. Why is Bill in love with GE tubes? I told him GE is where I started my career. Too many years ago now to care when that was.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> That GE 6sn7 is the stock driver tube that came Studio Six. Not sure if I gave it away with the sale or kept it. Why is Bill in love with GE tubes? I told him GE is where I started my career. Too many years ago now to care when that was.


Lory was being facetious. Bill hates GE and our bet was that he could pick a GE from any eight tubes I sent him. As you may be able to tell, I sent him some quality tubes and some he knows like the Frankie and Foton. I want to say it came down to an Electro Harmonix and the GE and he picked the EH.  I needed one crappy tube in the lot, just to have a fighting chance. I also listened to hmmm 25-30 various GE just to pick the one I liked best.  Bill is a class act and paid his debt, I still have many of the tubes and gained some knowledge along the way. Now when Bill compares RFT to GE and he has not heard a 6sn7 RFT before, I could foresee another challenge lol.

Oh and I sent photos and tube types to a neutral party to keep everything honest. I used identical extensions so you could not read CCCP on the tube base.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Lory was being facetious. Bill hates GE and our bet was that he could pick a GE from any eight tubes I sent him. As you may be able to tell, I sent him some quality tubes and some he knows like the Frankie and Foton. I want to say it came down to an Electro Harmonix and the GE and he picked the EH.  I needed one crappy tube in the lot, just to have a fighting chance. I also listened to hmmm 25-30 various GE just to pick the one I liked best.  Bill is a class act and paid his debt, I still have many of the tubes and gained some knowledge along the way. Now when Bill compares RFT to GE and he has not heard a 6sn7 RFT before, I could foresee another challenge lol.
> 
> Oh and I sent photos and tube types to a neutral party to keep everything honest. I used identical extensions so you could not read CCCP on the tube base.


On the Schiit Freya Impressions and Tube Rolling thread, post number 2071 is from a gentleman that prefers NOS GE 6SN7s. Perhaps Bill would be interested in reading it.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Lory was being facetious. Bill hates GE



Hahaha I told Billy that GE is really GE without the 'C' so that ought to be good ! It's GEC's cousin.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

sam6550a said:


> On the Schiit Freya Impressions and Tube Rolling thread, post number 2071 is from a gentleman that prefers NOS GE 6SN7s. Perhaps Bill would be interested in reading it.


They are certainly reasonable in price and truthfully I do not hear differences in a Freya like I might headphone amps. I am listening to the black glass Ken Rad with Utopias for the first time and am loving the sound.


----------



## UntilThen

sam6550a said:


> On the Schiit Freya Impressions



Ummm I always wanted to get that but never got around to it. There's always another amp to buy !


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Lory was being facetious. Bill hates GE and our bet was that he could pick a GE from any eight tubes I sent him. As you may be able to tell, I sent him some quality tubes and some he knows like the Frankie and Foton. I want to say it came down to an Electro Harmonix and the GE and he picked the EH.  I needed one crappy tube in the lot, just to have a fighting chance. I also listened to hmmm 25-30 various GE just to pick the one I liked best.  Bill is a class act and paid his debt, I still have many of the tubes and gained some knowledge along the way. Now when Bill compares RFT to GE and he has not heard a 6sn7 RFT before, I could foresee another challenge lol.
> 
> Oh and I sent photos and tube types to a neutral party to keep everything honest. I used identical extensions so you could not read CCCP on the tube base.



That's a lot of trouble you go to concealing those 6sn7s. Fotons ! I bought 7 of them just so I can use them all in GOTL. One for driver and 6 for power tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Ummm I always wanted to get that but never got around to it. There's always another amp to buy !


It is a decent pre-amp I use with a Cary power amp, and I will try it on the Cowen within a few days. I can visualize the circuitry so now it is just a matter of building.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> That's a lot of trouble you go to concealing those 6sn7s. Fotons ! I bought 7 of them just so I can use them all in GOTL. One for driver and 6 for power tubes.


They improve drastically when you replace the solder in the pins, I convinced Bill of that and he might acknowledge it in a roundabout way. 
And the concealed tubes went on to other people, figuring out how to conceal them was not easy but I doubt I spent more than a couple weekends to set that up. I have done similar things with cable, I have most any type of wire imaginable with the same RCA connectors, and metal braid over the wires but those were tests I did here and only had to look alike.

Such things are easy for me, now betting someone I can cut four aces from a standard deck of cards that is being shuffled during the whole process is not so easy. With each ace the odds go up drastically, it took me a lot of practice before I could get the fourth.


----------



## UntilThen

Well Billy was most outrageous in the Darkvoice thread. When the holiday is over and I go back to work, I'll still be in a hangover from the fast and furious jokes. Funny thing is I've not met Bill before until this Christmas. Kind of like drop from the sky.   

Billy Crystal at his best. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16063348


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Well Billy was most outrageous in the Darkvoice thread. When the holiday is over and I go back to work, I'll still be in a hangover from the fast and furious jokes. Funny thing is I've not met Bill before until this Christmas. Kind of like drop from the sky.
> 
> Billy Crystal at his best.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16063348


@bcowen is a huge reason why I keep coming back to Headfi. He's humble (most of the time) patient, and funny as heck. Shares his knowledge and extremely generous with equipment help and what not. Don't know any other member like him. @Paladin79 a close 2nd!


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> @bcowen is a huge reason why I keep coming back to Headfi. He's humble (most of the time) patient, and funny as heck. Shares his knowledge and extremely generous with equipment help and what not. Don't know any other member like him. @Paladin79 a close 2nd!



Well I can't afford him as caddy then. I'll tear up this contract and set him free and back to Head-Fi


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> and where I can bounce my jokes off @bcowen . I like him I do. I wouldn't have talk so much if not for him.



Awww, man.  That was  nice.  And ditto.

Even if you are (currently) winning the posting contest.  First I lose to @Paladin79 , and now this. Sigh. Perhaps I should take up something less competitive.  Maybe sniffing glue or something.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I kid with Bill but he has been most helpful with tubes so I gifted him one of my Incubus amps. I probably spent $1,000 setting him up with a 6sn7 challenge but it was worth it to see his skills in action. There are plenty of people who brag about their abilities but Bill is one of the few who can back them up. Now he still has not proven to me that he can hear a difference in maple shelves vs other wood, or sorbothane being in a room so I will let those things pass.



Nooooooooo....not the sorbothane challenge. That would suck the life out of me (just like it does the music).  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There are some black glass Ken Rad VT-231's I really like, I will try to find a photo, there are a couple versions I have seen but I prefer one over the other. I like RCA and Sylvania VT-231's but rate the black glass Ken-rads a bit higher, more musical IMHO. In many of my blind tube setups, the black glass Ken-Rad rated quite high. @bcowen  had not heard one so he could not pick it out of 8 tubes I sent him, but as I recall he really liked it.



Yes, it was that one and a 40's RCA smoke glass (IIRC) that I really liked out of that bunch. Had never heard either before, and they were some of my favorites of the challenge.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Nooooooooo....not the sorbothane challenge. That would suck the life out of me (just like it does the music).  LOL!


What say we double the usual bet, I know you want to do this and all I have to do is talk your wife into hiding it on her person and walking into the room eight or ten times.

Wait we would need to agree what a big bottle of wine is, and no boxes of wine.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yes, it was that one and a 40's RCA smoke glass (IIRC) that I really liked out of that bunch. Had never heard either before, and they were some of my favorites of the challenge.


You liked the black glass vt 231 Ken Rad but you had not heard one before so it was impossible for you to name it as I recall. The RCA and Ken Rad finished very well in other challenges.  I got to like the 56 Melz so I kept searching for them and found the 58's.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Well I can't afford him as caddy then. I'll tear up this contract and set him free and back to Head-Fi



 LOL!  Can I take the beer with me?  Please?  I'm pretty sure they'll get the cart out of the lake by sunset, but even if they don't?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Can I take the beer with me?  Please?  I'm pretty sure they'll get the cart out of the lake by sunset, but even if they don't?



This beer? You have to get it off the stewardesses if they let you. They love their beer.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16058151


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Awww, man.  That was  nice.  And ditto.
> 
> Even if you are (currently) winning the posting contest.  First I lose to @Paladin79 , and now this. Sigh. Perhaps I should take up something less competitive.  Maybe sniffing glue or something.



I've been in pole position since Christmas Eve and will remain so until New Year's Eve. Not even Hamilton can touch me.

My next amp will be called 'Ditto'.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> I've been in pole position since Christmas Eve and will remain so until New Year's Eve. Not even Hamilton can touch me.
> 
> My next amp will be called 'Ditto'.


I hope at least your wearing headphones when posting.. clothing not required...


----------



## UntilThen

Bored... I'm waiting for hekse and CMA 12 to turn up. New toys always excite.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 28, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Bored... I'm waiting for hekse and CMA 12 to turn up. New toys always excite.


Are the ZMF's your current headphones? I want to try the Verite's sometime myself.

I have been busily listening to a 1976 Melz 1578 with a Chatham 6as7g that I am really starting to like. I may have to get a few more Chathams out of my stash for a re-listen one day.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> This beer? You have to get it off the stewardesses if they let you. They love their beer.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/post-16058151



You mean I have a choice?  If I can have the stewardesses then screw the beer.  Wait....I might have that backwards.


----------



## UntilThen

JKDJedi said:


> I hope at least your wearing headphones when posting.. clothing not required...



Jedi, you visualise too much. My German shepherd is posting for me as I dictate to him. He's quick with his paws on the keyboard.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dog-fi.460466/post-16061729


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Are the ZMF's your current headphones? I want to try the Verite's sometime myself.



I want to try the Atticus. I need a good high impedance closed design, and there's not a lot of choices out there.


----------



## JKDJedi

UntilThen said:


> Jedi, you visualise too much. My German shepherd is posting for me as I dictate to him. He's quick with his paws on the keyboard.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dog-fi.460466/post-16061729


i was just wondering which head your headphones were hanging on?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I want to try the Atticus. I need a good high impedance closed design, and there's not a lot of choices out there.


If you would stop listening to disco grunge polka music, maybe your wife would allow you open headphones!


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Are the ZMF's your current headphones? I want to try the Verite's sometime myself.
> 
> I have been busily listening to a 1976 Melz 1578 with a Chatham 6as7g that I am really starting to like. I may have to get a few more Chathams out of my stash for a re-listen one day.



Sold off my ZMF Verite Open LTD Pheasant Wood only 2 weeks ago after owning it for one long year ! Well a friend was egging me to sell it so I let it go in the spirit of Christmas.
Now I have HD800, LCD-3f, LCD-X, HD650 and the incoming He1000se. 

When I was collecting 6as7 / 6080, I had everything except the WE421A. Had a pair of Chatham 6as7g with those copper rod. Nice tubes. Even had the Chatham 6520 not those with the dimples. Dimples 6520 are I believe 5998.


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> If you would stop listening to disco grunge polka music, maybe your wife would allow you open headphones!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I want to try the Atticus. I need a good high impedance closed design, and there's not a lot of choices out there.



Why didn't you ask me a few years earlier? I sold off the Eikon and Atticus for cheap and the Atticus has nice Padauk wood !

Atticus



Eikon


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> I want to try the Atticus. I need a good high impedance closed design, and there's not a lot of choices out there.


Verite Closed (300Ω) has generated much enthusiasm as well, though pricey!


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Sold off my ZMF Verite Open LTD Pheasant Wood only 2 weeks ago after owning it for one long year ! Well a friend was egging me to sell it so I let it go in the spirit of Christmas.
> Now I have HD800, LCD-3f, LCD-X, HD650 and the incoming He1000se.
> 
> When I was collecting 6as7 / 6080, I had everything except the WE421A. Had a pair of Chatham 6as7g with those copper rod. Nice tubes. Even had the Chatham 6520 not those with the dimples. Dimples 6520 are I believe 5998.


The HD 800 is our go to test headphones for our 6sn7 challenge, Tung Sol 5998's in the Incubi amps last I heard.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> The HD 800 is our go to test headphones for our 6sn7 challenge, Tung Sol 5998's in the Incubi amps last I heard.



We are in agreement then. Sennheiser make the HD800 for only one purpose - to test tubes. And a secondary purpose to listen to the 'Four Seasons' - Vivaldi.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You mean I have a choice?  If I can have the stewardesses then screw the beer.  Wait....I might have that backwards.



Facepalm


----------



## UntilThen

Formula 1 current standing:-

UntilThen 47
bcowen 26
paladin 22

stellar performances.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If you would stop listening to disco grunge polka music, maybe your wife would allow you open headphones!



LOL!  My wife listens to ABBA.  'Nuff said.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Why didn't you ask me a few years earlier? I sold off the Eikon and Atticus for cheap and the Atticus has nice Padauk wood !
> 
> Atticus
> 
> ...



Can I ask retroactively?   

Seriously, what did you think of them, specifically for rock and full-symphony type classical?  Yeah, I'm aware they are "entry" level for ZMF, but they're in much more of a doable price range at present.  I could always sell some tubes and get bett.....  (crap, I must be drunk....or temporarily possessed).


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Formula 1 current standing:-
> 
> UntilThen 47
> bcowen 26
> ...



I tend to look longer term, although you are getting increasingly larger in my rearview mirror.  Time for me to go post some worthless drivel (or more of the same, depending on perspective).


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Can I ask retroactively?
> 
> Seriously, what did you think of them, specifically for rock and full-symphony type classical?  Yeah, I'm aware they are "entry" level for ZMF, but they're in much more of a doable price range at present.  I could always sell some tubes and get bett.....  (crap, I must be drunk....or temporarily possessed).



Seriously I think they are great for Metallica 'Nothing Else Matters' and Beethoven 'Fifth Symphony'. Atticus rules them all at that price. Not the last word on treble extension but when you're rocking to AC/DC, what does it matter - or nothing else matters !

Now play this loud and with subwoofer on... I mean with Atticus on. In my case it's LCD-X doing the lows.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I tend to look longer term, although you are getting increasingly larger in my rearview mirror.  Time for me to go post some worthless drivel (or more of the same, depending on perspective).



If you look at that score, it's only a matter of 2 days before I catch you !


----------



## UntilThen

20th May 2017 - I took this iconic photo, just like the Beatles walking down Abbey Road crossings.

Yggdrasil > Feliks Euforia > HD800  -  I should have stop right there. No need to spend more money. This setup is really good.

Tubes on Euforia are : Sylvania 6sn7w and Bendix 6080wb


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> If you look at that score, it's only a matter of 2 days before I catch you !



I was never good at math.  I have to defer that analysis to @Paladin79 .


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Seriously I think they are great for Metallica 'Nothing Else Matters' and Beethoven 'Fifth Symphony'. Atticus rules them all at that price. Not the last word on treble extension but when you're rocking to AC/DC, what does it matter - or nothing else matters !
> 
> Now play this loud and with subwoofer on... I mean with Atticus on. In my case it's LCD-X doing the lows.




Excellent.  Thanks!


----------



## UntilThen (Dec 29, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I was never good at math.  I have to defer that analysis to @Paladin79 .


----------



## UntilThen

Ok staying on topic. Love this combination of Sylvania 6sn7w short tube and GEC 6as7g on Euforia. Sigh, I did have some nice tubes and gear back then but time and improvements marches on. These days I use light bulbs.


----------



## UntilThen

And while we're talking 6sn7, you can use these too with adapters.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> 20th May 2017 - I took this iconic photo, just like the Beatles walking down Abbey Road crossings.
> 
> Yggdrasil > Feliks Euforia > HD800  -  I should have stop right there. No need to spend more money. This setup is really good.
> 
> Tubes on Euforia are : Sylvania 6sn7w and Bendix 6080wb


Deja vu @UntilThen. After rolling a slew of non-standard (KT family, 6L6, 6V6) tubes with adapters in Feliks-Audio Elise, I'm rolling OG last few days with GEC 6080's and Sylvania VT-231's. The results are wonderful. Whether I just sit back and listen with eyes closed or analyze critically, musicality and technicalities both excel.

Of course the drive to explore other combinations is still there, but man it's nice when one's gear sounds this nice!


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Deja vu @UntilThen. After rolling a slew of non-standard (KT family, 6L6, 6V6) tubes with adapters in Feliks-Audio Elise, I'm rolling OG last few days with GEC 6080's and Sylvania VT-231's. The results are wonderful. Whether I just sit back and listen with eyes closed or analyze critically, musicality and technicalities both excel.
> 
> Of course the drive to explore other combinations is still there, but man it's nice when one's gear sounds this nice!



Deja vu indeed @LoryWiv . I roll quite a lot of tubes in Elise, both conventional and unconventional. 

This is the start of me being unconventional. 

c3g and 6BL7gt


Love Elise so much I had a model show off this.


----------



## UntilThen

Just to keep it on topic, otherwise @bcowen will fire me.

In the early days, all I could afford were these Sylvania 6sn7gtb coin base.


----------



## UntilThen

Then I progress by buying these almost mint Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome top for $50 and I was very proud of them at that time. It was my first pair of decent tubes. I still have them to this day !


----------



## UntilThen

It was Sylvania all the way then.... with these brown base and I thought brown base were exotic tubes.   

Sylvania 6sn7wgt


----------



## UntilThen

Such was my love for Elise, I kept these stickers.


----------



## UntilThen

I had these Tung Sol 6sn7gtb. Mind you Tung Sol @Paladin79  !!! Bet you didn't have that.


----------



## UntilThen

Then I pick up a quad of 6sn7, the GE specially for @bcowen , the rest are Japanese 6sn7, Triad, Rad-Tel, etc, very colourful names.


----------



## UntilThen

The invasion of 6sn7 begun. My inventory starts to overflow.


----------



## UntilThen

Finally to end it all, I decided to go big.


----------



## UntilThen

LinkedIn is amazing. Practically every job has a title ending with Consultant. There's Bicycle Mechanic Consultant, Beauty Consultant, Broker Consultant, Psychiatrist Consultant. There must be a Head-Fi Consultant or a Tube Consultant.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the best sound I've ever gotten. A earbud powered by Ragnarok. Ear shattering. To keep on topic, that's Euforia with stock drivers and GEC 6080.  

Anyone knows what those drivers are called? Some kind of 6sn7 ! @Paladin79 make sure you include these 6sn7 in your blind test.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> This is the best sound I've ever gotten. A earbud powered by Ragnarok. Ear shattering. To keep on topic, that's Euforia with stock drivers and GEC 6080.
> 
> Anyone knows what those drivers are called? Some kind of 6sn7 ! @Paladin79 make sure you include these 6sn7 in your blind test.



They look like UK version Psvanes. I am not sure if we have that exact model but we try not to have tubes from the same manufacturer that are similar to some already chosen.

e.g.  We may run a Melz solid plate 1578 like tube but not a 63 Melz 1578 since there are very close. Sylvania has so many tubes out there so we might run a three hole plate bad boy and not the two hole plate etc. We only look for the best representative sample and a Tung Sol black glass round plate might rate better than other Tung Sols


----------



## FLTWS

Yes, look like 6SN7 UK Black Plates, I have some, I like them.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Just to keep it on topic, otherwise @bcowen will fire me.
> 
> In the early days, all I could afford were these Sylvania 6sn7gtb coin base.



I have a pair of those!  And some RCA coin bases as well I think.  Of all the great 6SN7's out there, they are not some of them.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> Yes, look like 6SN7 UK Black Plates, I have some, I like them.



I only have one of the PSVanes -- a CV181T Mk 2.  Very nice sounding tube (especially in the Lyr 3), and a nice surprise for me as I wasn't expecting great things from it. Pretty impressive build quality as well...these are _not _your grandfather's Chinese tubes.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


>



I see what you did there.  All those tube photos.  Yup.  Didn't slide by me even a little.  But I only have 7 tubes.  I suppose if I took like 5 photos of each one from different angles, that would give me, uh, um....dangit.  @Paladin79 , how many more posts would that give me?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 29, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I see what you did there.  All those tube photos.  Yup.  Didn't slide by me even a little.  But I only have 7 tubes.  I suppose if I took like 5 photos of each one from different angles, that would give me, uh, um....dangit.  @Paladin79 , how many more posts would that give me?


The answer to most everything is 42, go with that number.

Here is some more book related advice:

First *Law of Mentat*...: 'A process cannot be understood by stopping it. Understanding must move with the flow of the process, must join it and flow with it. ' 

You are welcome.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> I only have one of the PSVanes -- a CV181T Mk 2.  Very nice sounding tube (especially in the Lyr 3), and a nice surprise for me as I wasn't expecting great things from it. Pretty impressive build quality as well...these are _not _your grandfather's Chinese tubes.



Yes, they are not. They are a premium priced tube but I feel I got my moneys worth with the 4 different type matched pairs of Psvane / Shuguang Treasure Globes I've purchased, (all from Grant Fidelity). All things considered price-wise I'm comfortable knowing that I can have these available along with 40 more single or matched pair, mostly really true NOS, of the usual suspects; Ken-Rad, Westinghouse, Raytheon, Tungsol, Foton, Melz, RCA, etc., etc.) 6SN7 types in my inventory. Going forward I suspect as true NOS stocks dwindle prices will skyrocket on them running the gamut from just over priced to stupid expensive. And I don't doubt there are many who will take advantage of putting a premium price on a used tube to take advantage of that fact.


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> The answer to most everything is 42, go with that number.



Hmmm, 2 x 58' Melz smooth plates would get me to that magic number, 42!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The answer to most everything is 42, go with that number.



LOL!  Perfect (for today, anyway).


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> First *Law of Mentat*...: 'A process cannot be understood by stopping it. Understanding must move with the flow of the process, must join it and flow with it. '
> 
> You are welcome.



OK, now I have a headache.  Thanks a lot.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> Hmmm, 2 x 58' Melz smooth plates would get me to that magic number, 42!



There's only one source for those that I know of.  But I won't reveal it publicly 'cause I don't want @Paladin79 getting deluged with a bunch of beggar PM's.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> Hmmm, 2 x 58' Melz smooth plates would get me to that magic number, 42!


It would indeed! And they should be easier to find now that Bill has stopped buying tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There's only one source for those that I know of.  But I won't reveal it publicly 'cause I don't want @Paladin79 getting deluged with a bunch of beggar PM's.


Drat I need to think of some new tube so people will not ask me for those. Hmmm Photons, kinda sorta like Fotons only different. It is like loktal, sometimes you find those spelled loctal.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Drat I need to think of some new tube so people will not ask me for those. Hmmm Photons, kinda sorta like Fotons only different. It is like loktal, sometimes you find those spelled loctal.



Hmmmmm....a loktal Foton 6N8S.  Do you have the Russian number for that?  Feel free to just PM it to me privately so it's kept secret until you get stashed up.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hmmmmm....a loktal Foton 6N8S.  Do you have the Russian number for that?  Feel free to just PM it to me privately so it's kept secret until you get stashed up.


I will send info and a sample by USPS, you should have it by St. Swithin's day or there about.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  My wife listens to ABBA.  'Nuff said.



When I was young, my fav song was 'Fernando' but I could not understand why everyone say 'Penaldo' until I realised they were referring to Christina Ronaldo taking the penalty kicks. So Penalty and Ronaldo = Penaldo.

That's ABBA for you.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> It would indeed! And they should be easier to find now that Bill has stopped buying tubes.



Nobody buys the 58' Melz because I'm next in line and I need 2 for my WA22.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I see what you did there.  All those tube photos.  Yup.  Didn't slide by me even a little.  But I only have 7 tubes.  I suppose if I took like 5 photos of each one from different angles, that would give me, uh, um....dangit.  @Paladin79 , how many more posts would that give me?



In 5 years of Head-Fi, I took thousands of photos of everything including the NAD dac and Denon TT my wife bought for me. If I release them, my posts will exceed wuwhere but I won't. Just saying.   

Dammit I'm listening to ABBA Greatest Hits thanks to bcowen.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Nobody buys the 58' Melz because I'm next in line and I need 2 for my WA22.


Good luck finding them lol, I have no extras and I just paid $110 for a close facsimile of dubious provenance.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Good luck finding them lol, I have no extras and I just paid $110 for a close facsimile of dubious provenance.



Does bcowen have 2? because I know where he lives and when he's asleep.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> In 5 years of Head-Fi, I took thousands of photos of everything including the NAD dac and Denon TT my wife bought for me. If I release them, my posts will exceed wuwhere but I won't. Just saying.
> 
> Dammit I'm listening to ABBA Greatest Hits thanks to bcowen.


I used to tell my son Pink Floyd was on tv and he would come running in to find ABBA singing something or other. He was in Sweden and visited the ABBA museum as a neighbor called him to tell him the basement of his new house was flooding, he is very not fond of ABBA lol


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Does bcowen have 2? because I know where he lives and when he's asleep.


Nope, I loaned Bill one just to peak his curiosity and received it back after Jedi, Ripper, FLTWS, and others heard it.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Dammit I'm listening to ABBA Greatest Hits thanks to bcowen.



Dang, man.  Didn't mean to hurt your feelings so bad you'd resort to that.  How can I apologize properly (I mean besides sending tubes or stewardesses or anything equally outlandish)?


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> I used to tell my son Pink Floyd was on tv and he would come running in to find ABBA singing something or other. He was in Sweden and visited the ABBA museum as a neighbor called him to tell him the basement of his new house was flooding, he is very not fond of ABBA lol



Don't get me started on Pink Floyd. I have most of Pink Floyd album on vinyl 180gm and they are 'mint'. Now you make me listen to 'Another brick in the wall'. This song should be played at school graduations.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Does bcowen have 2? because I know where he lives and when he's asleep.



I keep 2 in the safe as protected stash.  The other 200 are stored with my 7 tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Dang, man.  Didn't mean to hurt your feelings so bad you'd resort to that.  How can I apologize properly (I mean besides sending tubes or stewardesses or anything equally outlandish)?



No wonder my LCD-X sound a bit off this morning. Now I have to retune it with Stevie Nick's Dreams and drinking raspberry juice at 4:49am on the 30th Dec 2020. My dear friends on Head-Fi and 6sn7 thread, the year is almost over. Your last chance to make amends.


----------



## UntilThen

Omg CMA 12 arriving today according to tracking. Let's hope hekse arrive by tomorrow and my last wish before the year is out is to have 2 x 58' Melz arriving at my front door.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Omg CMA 12 arriving today according to tracking. Let's hope hekse arrive by tomorrow and my last wish before the year is out is to have 2 x 58' Melz arriving at my front door.



I'm not familiar with the CMA 12 (sorry).  Is this it?   Looks nice!


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Omg CMA 12 arriving today according to tracking. Let's hope hekse arrive by tomorrow and my last wish before the year is out is to have 2 x 58' Melz arriving at my front door.


You can certainly make the wish before year end and if you search each day you might find a pair before 2021 is over.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'm not familiar with the CMA 12 (sorry).  Is this it?   Looks nice!



CMA 12 is this technological marvel that is made of aircraft grade 10mm thick aluminium and the '12' refer to 12 miniture 6sn7 specifically 58' Melz used inside that slim carbonated case. If you're interested, after I've use it for 3 months, I can sell it to you.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> You can certainly make the wish before year end and if you search each day you might find a pair before 2021 is over.



Huh found it.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Audio-t...AAOSwahVftrH2&frcectupt=true&autorefresh=true

There's 2.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 29, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Huh found it.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Audio-t...AAOSwahVftrH2&frcectupt=true&autorefresh=true
> 
> There's 2.


Yep those are maybe from the 80’s, no Melz logo and the metal bases look like they have been added on. Other than that they are perfect lol.  I own one.

The real one is on the left, what you have in the photo is on the right. Different getter holder, dull grey plate instead of shiny black plate.

You have been paying attention though, that is the proper bottom mica and metal supports at the top.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Yep those are maybe from the 80’s, no Melz logo and the metal bases look like they have been added on. Other than that they are perfect lol.  I own one.
> 
> The real one is on the left, what you have in the photo is on the right. Different getter holder, dull grey plate instead of shiny black plate.
> 
> You have been paying attention though, that is the proper bottom mica and metal supports at the top.


Yeah I got tired of looking for them on Ebay.....can't tell whats what and not sure if they are real date codes etc........


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Yeah I got tired of looking for them on Ebay.....can't tell whats what and not sure if they are real date codes etc........


The date code you can trust is in the Melz logo, sellers stamp 1578 down below trying to duplicate that tube IMHO.  I check fairly often and have not found 56 or 58, my one supplier only had three 58's.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> The date code you can trust is in the Melz logo, sellers stamp 1578 down below trying to duplicate that tube IMHO.  I check fairly often and have not found 56 or 58, my one supplier only had three 58's.


Ok that's good to know! So many have price hiked as well and want ridiculous money for even 70-80's models.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Ok that's good to know! So many have price hiked as well and want ridiculous money for even 70-80's models.


Yes and they try to sneak in lesser desired Melz for the same money. Caveat emptor


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> Yeah I got tired of looking for them on Ebay.....can't tell whats what and not sure if they are real date codes etc........



By the time you see them on Ebay, well, you won't see them on Ebay.  'Cause @Paladin79 has already snagged the real ones.  LOL!


----------



## sqitis

bcowen said:


> By the time you see them on Ebay, well, you won't see them on Ebay.  'Cause @Paladin79 has already snagged the real ones.  LOL!


Now that's the truth!


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Now that's the truth!


Only what I could find,  I even took a chance on an iffy one, to protect others.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> CMA 12 is this technological marvel that is made of aircraft grade 10mm thick aluminium and the '12' refer to 12 miniture 6sn7 specifically 58' Melz used inside that slim carbonated case. If you're interested, after I've use it for 3 months, I can sell it to you.



Coolness!

Can I buy it cheaper without the tubes?  I already have some of those.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Yep those are maybe from the 80’s, no Melz logo and the metal bases look like they have been added on. Other than that they are perfect lol. I own one.
> 
> The real one is on the left, what you have in the photo is on the right. Different getter holder, dull grey plate instead of shiny black plate.
> 
> *You have been paying attention though*, that is the proper bottom mica and metal supports at the top.



I have been paying attention? At 4:49am? No way.   

Head bobbing bobbing bobbing bobbing bobbing. Hekse has arrived and despite a thousand and one things I have to do now, I'm trying it on my head with music going !


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Can I buy it cheaper without the tubes? I already have some of those.



You can but then you won't have UntilThen version which is the bestest, badasstest, motherlodetest, hermajesticness, hisexcellencyness.... insert here 'whatever nes' you need.


----------



## UntilThen

sqitis said:


> Now that's the truth!



You can't handle the truth ! Are we clear? Are we clear? 

This is where you say, 'Crystal'.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You can but then you won't have UntilThen version which is the bestest, badasstest, motherlodetest, hermajesticness, hisexcellencyness.... insert here 'whatever nes' you need.



OK, ok, ok....I get it.  I want the UntilThen version only. Anything else would simply be "not exactly."  Please disregard my previous post.  I mean the one about the tubes.  All the other ones are important.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Please disregard my previous post.  I mean the one about the tubes.  All the other ones are important.



I won't do that. It wouldn't be polite of me and you're a friend. I will read it but I will have no inclination nor do I have to give any explanations as to what I think about it. I may like it, most probably I will but recruit, I want you to do 50 push ups and 50 sit ups now ! 

That's what Jack Nicholson said right?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Hekse has arrived and despite a thousand and one things I have to do now, I'm trying it on my head with music going !




Hekse?  Got me again.  Dang.  It's almost like you live on a different continent or something. 






Seriously, how cool.  Can't wait to hear your impressions.  I've never had any Hifimans...yet.  Couldn't resist Drop's last, um, drop on the HE-4XX's though, and they just shipped yesterday. Yeah, yeah...totally opposite end of the Hifiman spectrum. And not even closed like I want need.  But $120?  How could I _not_?


----------



## UntilThen

Woahhhhh. You have no idea how he1000se sound. It's worth more than 10,000 of the best 6sn7, including 58' Melz, Ts 6sn7gt bgrp, Sylvania, Mullard, Raytheon, GE without the C, etc.

I can't believe what I'm hearing !


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Hekse? Got me again. Dang. It's almost like you live on a different continent or something.



We have to timed our posts a little better here ! It's a little bit out of sync ! I just post what you just ask !


----------



## UntilThen

Forget about hd800. Hekse is the new king. Clarity and details flow from the brain, through the blood vassals, through the capillaries, pumped from the heart to all parts of the body. You feel it in your toes, fingers, etc. Soundstage wider than the horizon, higher than the sky, deeper than middle earth. Imaging is incredible... IN CRE DI BLE. Notes here, notes there, trumpet here, drummer there, singer right in the middle, orchestra spanning the stage. This is 5d !!!

HiFiMan if you're watching, I'll collect my pay check after this.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Forget about hd800. Hekse is the new king. Clarity and details flow from the brain, through the blood vassals, through the capillaries, pumped from the heart to all parts of the body. You feel it in your toes, fingers, etc. Soundstage wider than the horizon, higher than the sky, deeper than middle earth. Imaging is incredible... IN CRE DI BLE. Notes here, notes there, trumpet here, drummer there, singer right in the middle, orchestra spanning the stage. This is 5d !!!
> 
> HiFiMan if you're watching, I'll collect my pay check after this.


Wait, is Bill not your vassal? What kind of feudal system are you guys trying to operate anyway. Are you doing a blood oath?


----------



## Odin412

bcowen said:


> I only have one of the PSVanes -- a CV181T Mk 2.  Very nice sounding tube (especially in the Lyr 3), and a nice surprise for me as I wasn't expecting great things from it. Pretty impressive build quality as well...these are _not _your grandfather's Chinese tubes.



Yes, that's a great tube! I love it with my Saga preamp.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Wait, is Bill not your vassal? What kind of feudal system are you guys trying to operate anyway. Are you doing a blood oath?



In my excitement, my puppy typed vassals. Should have been vessels. Bad German Shepherd.

BUT you're correct, Bill is my vassal. I think this is going too far. It's going to hurt his feelings wakakaka.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wait, is Bill not your vassal?



I'm his golf cart driver, not his boat captain.  Sheeez.  Have you not been paying attention?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'm his golf cart driver, not his boat captain.  Sheeez.  Have you not been paying attention?



We need to re-write your job description after this.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> We need to re-write your job description after this.



I like Emperor.  Or Mr. Emperor would be OK if you like that better.


----------



## UntilThen

Help ! I'm still listening. Haven't brush my teeth, haven't shower, haven't had breakfast. This is obsession overload. Bill fly over here now and put this hekse on your head while I go do all that.

...and tracking really does show that Questyle CMA 12 is really really coming today ! Today 30th Dec 2020 will go down in history as a day of infamy.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Help ! I'm still listening. Haven't brush my teeth, haven't shower, haven't had breakfast. This is obsession overload. Bill fly over here now and put this hekse on your head while I go do all that.
> 
> ...and tracking really does show that Questyle CMA 12 is really really coming today ! Today 30th Dec 2020 will go down in history as a day of infamy.


See that is the problem, you are 13 hours in the future and in other parts of the world it is still yesterday.


----------



## UntilThen

I am in pain now. In a state of ecstasy. he100ose is the real soup, the real corn beef, the real spaghetti. I'm listening in Pain from Tidal HiFi now.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> See that is the problem, you are 13 hours in the future and in other parts of the world it is still yesterday.



Yes I often wonder why I'm ahead of all of you. You hear that Bill? Look at the chart again please. Your lofty month score is about to be toppled and no PMing yourself. It's got to be classic War and Peace length posts.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 29, 2020)

UntilThen said:


> Yes I often wonder why I'm ahead of all of you. You hear that Bill? Look at the chart again please. Your lofty month score is about to be toppled and no PMing yourself. It's got to be classic War and Peace length posts.



Well, this does help explain why I feel like I'm always behind on everything.  I thought it was just psychological, but it appears there's actually a scientific explanation!  That @Paladin79 dude is like too awesome....first he discovers the Foton pin solder thing, and now this.  And it's still only 2020, even in those 'ahead' places!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well, this does help explain why I feel like I'm always behind on everything.  I thought it was just psychological, but it appears there's actually a scientific explanation!  That @Paladin79 dude is like too awesome....first he discovers the Foton pin solder thing, and now this.  And it's still only 2020, even in those 'ahead' places!



Never think of Australia as down under again. We're right on top. You are looking at the map upside down.

I like @Paladin79 very much. He reminds me of my decked out paladin in D2 eons ago. The baddest paladin in all the land.


----------



## quimbo

Number of Posts is meaningless to me without taking into account the Likes / Post ratio


----------



## Mr Trev

UntilThen said:


> And while we're talking 6sn7, you can use these too with adapters.


You forgot the ECC40








UntilThen said:


> Then I pick up a quad of 6sn7, the GE specially for @bcowen , the rest are Japanese 6sn7, Triad, Rad-Tel, etc, very colourful names.


How be those Japanese 6SN7? I stumble across the odd Hitachi/Toshiba/Matsushita every so often. No body ever mentions those brands so I have no idea if they're worth a looksee.



bcowen said:


> Seriously, how cool.  Can't wait to hear your impressions.  I've never had any Hifimans...yet.  Couldn't resist Drop's last, um, drop on the HE-4XX's though, and they just shipped yesterday. Yeah, yeah...totally opposite end of the Hifiman spectrum. And not even closed like I want need.  But $120?  How could I _not_?


That's the spirit! Stimulate the economy!
BUT - maybe you shoulda bought this instead: https://www.adorama.com/hmhe560v4.html?emailprice=t. Most folks say the 560 is better. Or, just gone all out on these: https://audio46.com/products/focal-utopia-tournaire-gold-diamond-audiophile-headphones-special-order


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Never think of Australia as down under again. We're right on top. You are looking at the map upside down.



I've just always wondered if Australia is east of the US, or west.  I started swimming there once, but halfway there I got too tired so turned around and came back.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> BUT - maybe you shoulda bought this instead: https://www.adorama.com/hmhe560v4.html?emailprice=t. Most folks say the 560 is better.



I wasn't actually considering sound quality. Just the $120.  I needed to show my wife how much money I'd saved because they were on sale.   



Mr Trev said:


> Or, just gone all out on these: https://audio46.com/products/focal-utopia-tournaire-gold-diamond-audiophile-headphones-special-order



Now *that* is hilarious.  But just to be my usual helpful self, I _did_ enter my email address so they can let me know when they go on sale.  With a 99% discount, I'm all in!


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> You forgot the ECC40
> 
> How be those Japanese 6SN7? I stumble across the odd Hitachi/Toshiba/Matsushita every so often. No body ever mentions those brands so I have no idea if they're worth a looksee.
> 
> ...



ECC40 is  

From memory those Jap 6sn7 sounded leaner and a touch brighter. Good airy, clear tone though.

I have a HE560 v1 here and I don't think it's anyway near compared to the he1000se.  Hekse is even better than the Arya but I'll do a a/b of that tomorrow when I get my son's Arya over. The Utopia is a bit rich with those diamonds. More for the Sultans of swing.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I've just always wondered if Australia is east of the US, or west.  I started swimming there once, but halfway there I got too tired so turned around and came back.



Try this instead. You'll get here faster.


----------



## UntilThen

quimbo said:


> Number of Posts is meaningless to me without taking into account the Likes / Post ratio



It's meaningless to me too. Post count and likes / post ratio is of least concern to me. I'm just enjoying my hekse so much now.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Try this instead. You'll get here faster.



Mine is in the shop.  Can I borrow yours?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Mine is in the shop.  Can I borrow yours?



You can rent mine but you need to be able to fly a drone. It's similar techniques.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You can rent mine but you need to be able to fly a drone. It's similar techniques.



Why?  It's not like *I'm* going to fly it. That's a task for underlings. I'm gonna sit in first class and drink.  Yours _does_ have the fully reclining Italian leather seats, right?  I have a bad habit of making assumptions.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Why?  It's not like *I'm* going to fly it. That's a task for underlings. I'm gonna sit in first class and drink.  Yours _does_ have the fully reclining Italian leather seats, right?  I have a bad habit of making assumptions.



If you want the lambskins leather seats with full recliner and massage plus cocktails and a personal flight stewardess, it will be just for an extra small fee. For pilot, you'll get a WW2 veteran fighter pilot, very experience but because of age, can't see very well but the feel is there.

Oh backup parachutes provided.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> It's meaningless to me too. Post count and likes / post ratio is of least concern to me. I'm just enjoying my hekse so much now.



On 2nd thoughts I do care about the posts. I need to beat bcowen month score before the year is out. It's a huge bet that I cannot afford to lose !!! After EOY, I don't care hehe because a million bucks is coming into my coffer.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Mine is in the shop.  Can I borrow yours?


Are you modding it?


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Are you modding it?



Hell no. Didn't cross my mind that he will mod it. Sends shivers down my spine. That's a super sonic jet.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> In 5 years of Head-Fi, I took thousands of photos of everything including the NAD dac and Denon TT my wife bought for me. If I release them, my posts will exceed wuwhere but I won't. Just saying.
> 
> Dammit I'm listening to ABBA Greatest Hits thanks to bcowen.


Besides a palindrome band name I can't think of much else worth remembering about ABBA. However, I think their music may sound best on NOS GE tubes.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> I'm not familiar with the CMA 12 (sorry).  Is this it?   Looks nice!


Yep, known for a very clean sound. 😅


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Besides a palindrome band name I can't think of much else worth remembering about ABBA. However, I think their music may sound best on NOS GE tubes.



I'll make it up to you with this classic hit. It's going to be the 6sn7 test track.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> If you want the lambskins leather seats with full recliner and massage plus cocktails and a personal flight stewardess, it will be just for an extra small fee. For pilot, you'll get a WW2 veteran fighter pilot, very experience but because of age, can't see very well but the feel is there.
> 
> Oh backup parachutes provided.



The pilot is cool.  As long as he can still hear and knows which button to push when something starts beeping, we're good.  But "backup" parachutes?  This would imply doubts or routine failures with the first ones.  I'll bring my own, thanks.  No discount expected.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> On 2nd thoughts I do care about the posts. I need to beat bcowen month score before the year is out. It's a huge bet that I cannot afford to lose !!! After EOY, I don't care hehe because a million bucks is coming into my coffer.



You can't change a bet in the middle. That was a million GE 12AX7's, not 'bucks.'  Geez.  And just so we're clear, shipping is extra. I will, however, dump throw place them carefully in the shipping dumpster, and even put a tarp over it so they don't get covered in seawater (assuming you want to save money with ocean freight). But there I go assuming again...


----------



## bcowen (Dec 30, 2020)

jonathan c said:


> Are you modding it?



LOL!  Yes, encapsulating the entire passenger cabin in sorbothane.  And since I bought it used lovingly pre-owned from @UntilThen , I'm replacing all the GE tubes in the audio system with good ones.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Yep, known for a very clean sound. 😅



LOL!!!


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Besides a palindrome band name I can't think of much else worth remembering about ABBA. However, I think their music may sound best on NOS GE tubes.



I'm not one to nitpick on semantics (kind of), but this would be more descriptively correct as "may sound less bad."  Hope this helps.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 30, 2020)

Getting back to tubes, I am finding a few types of getter holders on Melz 1578's, a 1976 has a small round saucer shape. It is not as balanced as a 1963 but a nice sounding tube none the less.

Listening to John Hiatt, and some James McMurtry.

Hiatt is from Indianapolis, McMurtry is the son of Lonesome Dove author Larry McMurtry. James was in town years ago working with Mellencamp, one of my renters became his drummer.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yes, encapsulating the entire passenger cabin in sorbothane.  And since I bought it used lovingly pre-owned from @UntilThen , I'm replacing all the GE tubes in the audio system with good ones.



I'll just play you this one song. An old favourite of mine. I am still listening to music with this hekse since yesterday morning. It is beautiful. I've not given much thought to HiFiMan before. I just realised that this is the first HiFiMan I have owned and it will probably be the last because it is perfect. So here you go, just close your eyes and listen to this song. No charge.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'm not one to nitpick on semantics (kind of), but this would be more descriptively correct as "may sound less bad."  Hope this helps.



I'm just going to post 3 posts today including this because that's how I like it. Then I'm going to sleep for 2.5 hours. After which I'll wake up and play golf when the sun is coming up. Then when I've aced the 9 holes, I'll go home and shower and wait for the darn CMA12 to arrive. Then I will listen to music while waiting for New Year's Eve fireworks. It's a beautiful way to farewell 2020 because this year has been a pain in the .... (unprintable). Take care bcowen.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I'm just going to post 3 posts today including this because that's how I like it. Then I'm going to sleep for 2.5 hours. After which I'll wake up and play golf when the sun is coming up. Then when I've aced the 9 holes, I'll go home and shower and wait for the darn CMA12 to arrive. Then I will listen to music while waiting for New Year's Eve fireworks. It's a beautiful way to farewell 2020 because this year has been a pain in the .... (unprintable). Take care bcowen.



Wait...I thought the dishwasher CMA12 was supposed to be delivered yesterday.  Now *I'm* bummed out...


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Wait...I thought the dishwasher CMA12 was supposed to be delivered yesterday.  Now *I'm* bummed out...


and the New Year's Eve is not today...


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> and the New Year's Eve is not today...


Great to see you ODD, how have your been?  Any new tubes?


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Dec 30, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Great to see you ODD, how have your been?  Any new tubes?


Thank you, all well, no new tubes, as I am going through the ones I already have, and that's plenty! Still using your setup of aune T1 and Vali 2, single triodes in aune, and trying different combinations. Nothing scientific, random combinations of 6SN7 family and sheer pleasure of music! Now will take out Frankie out of Vali and put in a 6C8G, will see which one. What else to do under a long lockdown? How are you weathering CoViD?


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Thank you, all well, no new tubes, as I am going through the ones I already have, and that's plenty! Still using your setup of aune T1 and Vali 2, single triodes in aune, and trying different combinations. Nothing scientific, random combinations of 6SN7 family and sheer pleasure of music! Now will take out Frankie out of Vali and put in a C6G8, will see which one. What else to do under a long lockdown? How are you weathering CoViD?


I am doing great thanks, working from home and building new amps in my spare time. I may even consider designing a tube pre-amp to go with a power amp. Hey if you have any sources where you can get a matched pair of Telefunken LS-50 tubes I would send you cash. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LS50-TELEF...072347?hash=item421ed450db:g:YL0AAOSwRO9fPn0D

Must be Telefunken lol, no Russian GU-50s. You cannot throw a rock without hitting one of those, they are pretty common.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I am doing great thanks, working from home and building new amps in my spare time. I may even consider designing a tube pre-amp to go with a power amp. Hey if you have any sources where you can get a matched pair of Telefunken LS-50 tubes I would send you cash.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/LS50-TELEF...072347?hash=item421ed450db:g:YL0AAOSwRO9fPn0D
> 
> Must be Telefunken lol, no Russian GU-50s. You cannot throw a rock without hitting one of those, they are pretty common.


depends what they are worth to you - https://www.ebay.ca/itm/4-X-LS50-TU...152464?hash=item1f186361d0:g:z50AAOSwYW5fj94Y


----------



## Mr Trev

What's the deal with those GU-50/LS50? They kind look like the jar my barber disinfects his combs in.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 30, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> depends what they are worth to you - https://www.ebay.ca/itm/4-X-LS50-TU...152464?hash=item1f186361d0:g:z50AAOSwYW5fj94Y


That is a new listing and I am making an offer lol, I have a better chance of getting two to match with four to choose from.

"What's the deal with those GU-50/LS50? They kind look like the jar my barber disinfects his combs in."

I could be wrong on this but I believe they were used in German and Russian aircraft in WW 2. The housing made them rugged and the pull handle on top was for quick change out. In the early days of WW 2 Russia was an ally of Germany so maybe they borrowed technology but that is just a guess. Some of the Telefunken have a swastica as well as Wehrmacht on them.

They are considered an audiophile tube, pentodes; I will use them as triodes myself to win a bet. I only have Russian versions but if I keep them amp I will increase the quality throughout.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> That is a new listing and I am making an offer lol, I have a better chance of getting two to match with four to choose from.
> 
> "What's the deal with those GU-50/LS50? They kind look like the jar my barber disinfects his combs in."
> 
> ...


You have gotten lucky - I just bought two NOS NIB in original boxes from my friend in France.



Given the lockdown, I will only have them in hand in three weeks from now, and then send them to you as a present.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 30, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You have gotten lucky - I just bought two NOS NIB in original boxes from my friend in France.
> 
> Given the lockdown, I will only have them in hand in three weeks from now, and then send them to you as a present.


Wow thanks so much!!!!   What is your electrical supply there?  Do you have adapters to go to 120 V AC?  I may have to try to get an Incubus amp to you.  

As always you are most kind, I extend my sincerest thanks and will reciprocate one day. I may have to hang onto this amp after all, it is only about 15 watts class A. I called it the Cowen but only with the Russian tubes in it lol, now I have to think of a serious name.


----------



## tafens

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> depends what they are worth to you - https://www.ebay.ca/itm/4-X-LS50-TU...152464?hash=item1f186361d0:g:z50AAOSwYW5fj94Y



Seems like they are rugged enough to be mailed directly without any packaging at all! The ones in the pictures even have stamps already put on them 

Also, with that pull-handle and metal lid-like top, they remind me of a coffee kettle. Conveniently, they even have a built-in heater to keep the coffee warm.. Now where did I put my mug?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 30, 2020)

tafens said:


> Seems like they are rugged enough to be mailed directly without any packaging at all! The ones in the pictures even have stamps already put on them
> 
> Also, with that pull-handle and metal lid-like top, they remind me of a coffee kettle. Conveniently, they even have a built-in heater to keep the coffee warm.. Now where did I put my mug?


Luckily my offer was not accepted lol, his counter offer was reasonable but I turned it down.

I may snag a couple these so the amp is all Telefunken at some point.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TELEFUNKEN...933139?hash=item3f6d9cd053:g:FVQAAOSwpDdVAfas


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> Wow thanks so much!!!!   What is your electrical supply there?  Do you have adapters to go to 120 V AC?  I may have to try to get an Incubus amp to you.


Very kind of you, but let us not worry about this just right now. I have to get them to you first. NOS NIB in original boxes do not mean they are in working order, I cannot even test them on my tester


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I called it the Cowen but only with the Russian tubes in it lol, now I have to think of a serious name.


Are Russian tubes so much inferior in this case - you like your MELZ tubes?


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Very kind of you, but let us not worry about this just right now. I have to get them to you first. NOS NIB in original boxes do not mean they are in working order, I cannot even test them on my tester


I can repair anything that happens within my amp so I am not worried. I doubt my tester will work with them either.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 30, 2020)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Are Russian tubes so much inferior in this case - you like your MELZ tubes?


I love Melz after I have re-soldered them. The Russian GU-50's are ok but I have heard wonderful things about the Telefunkens and there are just not many more choices out there lol. Have you kept  up with the 58 solid plate Melz I found? I like them better than perforated plates but they are very rare.
All the insides of a proper 1578 but no holes in the shiny black plates. I sent one around and others were also impressed as best I could tell.

I end up in crazy bets with friends where we hand each other a bucket of parts and the other person has to make a good sounding amp from said parts. I have had to include magic eye tubes, blade switches, and other odds and ends lol.

I will most likely keep the Cowen amp after I win my bet.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> I love Melz after I have re-soldered them. The Russian GU-50's are ok but I have heard wonderful things about the Telefunkens and there are just not many more choices out there lol. Have you kept  up with the 58 solid plate Melz I found? I like them better than perforated plates but they are very rare.
> All the insides of a proper 1578 but no holes in the shiny black plates. I sent one around and others were also impressed as best I could tell.


Perhaps this is my impaired hearing, or equipment, or both, but MELZ 1578 sound screechy to me. True, I have not resoldered the pins, but I am not sure it would have helped. So I gave a couple to late Robert Padgett, and he re-soldered and liked them. Still have some 1578 NOS, but lost interest - so many tubes I like better. To each his own, I guess - listening to JAN CRC VT-163 now and sounds the world for me, such harmonic tonality and space...https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...183814164965&usg=AOvVaw00uqblN7UA3AgrBl03MjZT


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Perhaps this is my impaired hearing, or equipment, or both, but MELZ 1578 sound screechy to me. True, I have not resoldered the pins, but I am not sure it would have helped. So I gave a couple to late Robert Padgett, and he re-soldered and liked them. Still have some 1578 NOS, but lost interest - so many tubes I like better. To each his own, I guess - listening to JAN CRC VT-163 now and sounds the world for me, such harmonic tonality and space...https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiyutSYrfbtAhVuAGMBHYj7AMQQFjAAegQIBBAC&url=https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1952-Quad-RCA-JAN-CRC-VT-163-6C8G-6C8-Tubes-Getter-EXCELLENT-MATCHED-/183814164965&usg=AOvVaw00uqblN7UA3AgrBl03MjZT


Some of the newer versions of the 1578s have different sounds, I really like the 1963 myself and bought a bunch when I had the opportunity. I now have one left lol or maybe 3 depending on Sqitis take on them. He is local so one day he will hear an Incubus with Focal Utopias and a couple tubes that do not leave my house.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Some of the newer versions of the 1578s have different sounds, I really like the 1963 myself and bought a bunch when I had the opportunity. I now have one left lol or maybe 3 depending on Sqitis take on them. He is local so one day he will hear an Incubus with Focal Utopias and a couple tubes that do not leave my house.


Yeah the 63 is a little different from the 71 and the Foton's. It's more refined and maybe a tad warmer & smoother. I think the others have more of an all out rock sound when they just get with it and jam. I'm definitely wanting to hear some early 50's Melz to see how they sound compared to the 63. I will say 50's Foton is pretty damn good for the money.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 30, 2020)

sqitis said:


> Yeah the 63 is a little different from the 71 and the Foton's. It's more refined and maybe a tad warmer & smoother. I think the others have more of an all out rock sound when they just get with it and jam. I'm definitely wanting to hear some early 50's Melz to see how they sound compared to the 63. I will say 50's Foton is pretty damn good for the money.


I would trust you with two 58 melz solid plates one day but they are not for sale, only for your listening pleasure. They are close to the 63's, only slight differences, better high frequency response IMHO. Most of my listening is with the Incubus and it is made to let the 6sn7 shine. In one of my pre-amp tube setups there are 12 tubes involved, it is tough for me to differentiate as much in that setup.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> I would trust you with two 58 melz solid plates one day but they are not for sale, only for your listening pleasure. They are close to the 63's, only slight differences, better high frequency response IMHO. Most of my listening is with the Incubus and it is made to let the 6sn7 shine. In one of my pre-amp tube setups there are 12 tubes involved, it is tough for me to differentiate as much in that setup.


Understood! That is one area I could hear that would better the 63. Just a little bit more twinkle on the top end......LOL


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> Understood! That is one area I could hear that would better the 63. Just a little bit more twinkle on the top end......LOL


it is hard to explain, like the treble has no ceiling at all and just keeps drifting higher.


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You have gotten lucky - I just bought two NOS NIB in original boxes from my friend in France.
> 
> Given the lockdown, I will only have them in hand in three weeks from now, and then send them to you as a present.



I fully expect to hear some impressions on how they sound in your Vali2 before you ship them off to Paladin - there's gotta be an adapter somewhere


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I fully expect to hear some impressions on how they sound in your Vali2 before you ship them off to Paladin - there's gotta be an adapter somewhere


lol sure there is, pentode, dual triode, practically the same thing. And filament current, pay no attention to that just keep a fire extinguisher close by.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Wait...I thought the dishwasher CMA12 was supposed to be delivered yesterday.  Now *I'm* bummed out...



It's got delayed ! Now I can't wash my clothes until after the New Year. Don't cry for me Argentina (bcowen) and don't bummed out for me. The truth is I never left you. All through my wild days.


----------



## UntilThen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> and the New Year's Eve is not today...



Thanks for coming in ODD. Just in the nick of time. Now I can leave. 

It is New Year's Eve for me.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

UntilThen said:


> It is New Year's Eve for me.


Oh well. Happy New Year, then!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks for coming in ODD. Just in the nick of time. Now I can leave.
> 
> It is New Year's Eve for me.



Yeah, thanks for dropping by @Old Deaf Donkey . We need one of you old guys here to keep an eye on us other old guys here or trouble may brew.     In fact, I'm brewing some Ethiopian Harrar right now which is quite tasty with a shot of Baileys. Actually, most anything is pretty tasty with a shot of Baileys...

And Happy New Year @UntilThen .  You'll already have a hangover by the time we get started.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Yeah, thanks for dropping by @Old Deaf Donkey . We need one of you old guys here to keep an eye on us other old guys here or trouble may brew.     In fact, I'm brewing some Ethiopian Harrar right now which is quite tasty with a shot of Baileys. Actually, most anything is pretty tasty with a shot of Baileys...
> 
> And Happy New Year @UntilThen .  You'll already have a hangover by the time we get started.



Hahaha. Happy New Year to you @bcowen  and everyone here. 5 hours to go before 2021. It was nice meeting you. I'm drinking from the barrel now.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha. Happy New Year to you @bcowen  and everyone here. 5 hours to go before 2021. It was nice meeting you. I'm drinking from the barrel now.



Not sure when the month officially ends on HeadFi's clock, but it's not looking promising for you right now.  If you'd like to challenge this through the courts I understand, but if you want to go ahead and concede let me know when to send the carrier in to pick up my million GE tubes.  I'm counting on those to stock me up with Christmas gifts for @Paladin79 for the next 50 years.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Not sure when the month officially ends on HeadFi's clock, but it's not looking promising for you right now.  If you'd like to challenge this through the courts I understand, but if you want to go ahead and concede let me know when to send the carrier in to pick up my million GE tubes.  I'm counting on those to stock me up with Christmas gifts for @Paladin79 for the next 50 years.


You have wayyyyy too much time on your hands but you have managed to stay out of trouble with your posts I imagine.


----------



## quimbo

Would not be very difficult to develop a script to post messages, is there a prize besides GE tubes that would make it worth while?

Years ago in the days of pagers a peer walked away from a design session and would not listen to reason.  I wrote a quick script that sent a message to her pager every 5 minutes - "Page 1 of 1000", etc.  after 7 pages she asked me if she would be getting 1000 pages.  "Yes, unless we sit down and discuss" 

As my wife says, "never pi** of a programmer"


----------



## bcowen

quimbo said:


> ...is there a prize besides GE tubes that would make it worth while?



No.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No.


I would do another GE tube challenge but that would be unfair to someone trying to pick that tube blind. It is not that easy.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha. Happy New Year to you @bcowen  and everyone here. 5 hours to go before 2021. It was nice meeting you. I'm drinking from the barrel now.


OK, our turn in Europe. 4 1/2 hours left. Hitting the barrel now, too. Happy New Year to all!


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Not sure when the month officially ends on HeadFi's clock, but it's not looking promising for you right now. If you'd like to challenge this through the courts I understand, but if you want to go ahead and concede let me know when to send the carrier in to pick up my million GE tubes. I'm counting on those to stock me up with Christmas gifts for @Paladin79 for the next 50 years.



35 points separate us but a miss is as good as a mile. 2020 is best remembered for Covid-19 and the arduous task of trying to catch Bcowen's post count. I concede. You won and will be crown the new emperor. Just remember to put on some clothes on coronation day. I'll be there to take pictures.

The year ended for me from drinking beer to red wine to vodka cruiser. Just any alcoholic liquid will do. So cheers to you and everyone here.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> OK, our turn in Europe. 4 1/2 hours left. Hitting the barrel now, too. Happy New Year to all!


This is so not fair lol, it is going on 2 pm here and I am still working. Have one for me ODD.
Special thanks go out to those who have gifted me some very nice whisky, bourbon and scotch. It pays not to pass out GE tubes.  
Now if only I had some of what I consider to be a fine Belgian beer, Gulden Draak, but I can buy that locally.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> This is so not fair lol, it is going on 2 pm here and I am still working. Have one for me ODD.
> Special thanks go out to those who have gifted me some very nice whisky, bourbon and scotch. It pays not to pass out GE tubes.
> Now if only I had some of what I consider to be a fine Belgian beer, Gulden Draak, but I can buy that locally.


Oh well, I do stock Chimay Bleu at home only, but won't bother with beer today. Started with Pinot Blanc Rosenbourg from André Blanc in Elsace, and will move on to Chateau Poitevin 2014 from Médoc in France. After that, world is my oyster, but perhaps Armagnac, to keep the line. Happy New Year, Tom!


----------



## JKDJedi

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> OK, our turn in Europe. 4 1/2 hours left. Hitting the barrel now, too. Happy New Year to all!


Party like it's 2020.. 😁


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Party like it's 2020.. 😁


One of my employees keeps saying "party like it was 2019", 2020 sucked!


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> Oh well, I do stock Chimay Bleu at home only, but won't bother with beer today. Started with Pinot Blanc Rosenbourg from André Blanc in Elsace, and will move on to Chateau Poitevin 2014 from Médoc in France. After that, world is my oyster, but perhaps Armagnac, to keep the line. Happy New Year, Tom!


You are a man of refined taste and style. My wine selection will be  tomorrow with lunch and dinner but a pinot blanc will be enjoyed, possibly dinner tonight.
Happy New Year ODD!


----------



## sqitis (Dec 31, 2020)

Yep pouring my fist glass of bourbon for the night......cheers fellas! Oh and we will also be popping a Prosecco that I received from @Paladin79! Thanks Tom!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 31, 2020)

sqitis said:


> Yep pouring my fist glass of bourbon for the night......cheers fellas! Oh and we will also be popping a Prosecco that I received from @Paladin79! Thanks Tom!


You are most welcome, and now that the sun is nearly over the yardarm I am sampling some of the Pinhook you gifted me, a wonderful bourbon, thank you SQ!

Even more appreciated after bringing in firewood and trying to get my cat Finnegan back indoors lol. He wanted a tour of the new shed apparently.


----------



## Paladin79

Tomorrow I hope to start final assembly on the Cowen. After several coats of lacquer on the cabinet.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> This is so not fair lol, it is going on 2 pm here and I am still working. Have one for me ODD.
> Special thanks go out to those who have gifted me some very nice whisky, bourbon and scotch. It pays not to pass out GE tubes.
> Now if only I had some of what I consider to be a fine Belgian beer, Gulden Draak, but I can buy that locally.


Years ago when I was young and dumb I loved Duvel unfiltered. The trick was to decant the layer of brewer's yeast at the bottom while pouring into the stein. Tonight I will likely have a root beer with dinner and struggle to stay awake till midnight, although my wife will probably be out sooner. Funniest part is I don't mind a bit. They say youth is wasted on the young and wisdom on the old. May 2021 find us all living in the grand sweet spot between those two poles of life and all of it made better by music. ⚖🎵


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Tomorrow I hope to start final assembly on the Cowen. After several coats of lacquer on the cabinet.



This one is for me right?


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> This one is for me right?


I was hoping the Cowen name would scare people away! I am hoping not to build more.😷


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> I was hoping the Cowen name would scare people away! I am hoping not to build more.😷



Can you change the name to UntilThen. I like it personalised.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Can you change the name to UntilThen. I like it personalised.


Why sure, one day that could happen but for now they are local pickup only, so Sqitis may be the only one to hear one.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was hoping the Cowen name would scare people away! I am hoping not to build more.😷



Huh?!?  You're going to need to hire 20 or 30 employees to keep up with the demand.  But I'm not the one that's gonna inform your wife that her new shed has been repurposed...already.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Huh?!?  You're going to need to hire 20 or 30 employees to keep up with the demand.  But I'm not the one that's gonna inform your wife that her new shed has been repurposed...already.



Nonsense. Change the name to UntilThen and demand will exceed supply. Question is how much does @Paladin79 want to grow his business. This could be the ZMF of amps. Amps in every type of wood.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Nonsense. Change the name to UntilThen and demand will exceed supply. Question is how much does @Paladin79 want to grow his business. This could be the ZMF of amps. Amps in every type of wood.


Been there and sorta did that. All of my Incubus amps are unique. It is a pleasant hobby but I have too much going on.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Been there and sorta did that. All of my Incubus amps are unique. It is a pleasant hobby but I have too much going on.



Understand that. Again I was kidding because this is just your hobby. We all have our professions and head-fi is just a hobby.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Understand that. Again I was kidding because this is just your hobby. We all have our professions and head-fi is just a hobby.


I have spent much of my career in electronics, project management and business so I could make a profession of it if I cared to but I am too involved in other things like trying to keep Finnegan from breaking my tube collection.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have spent much of my career in electronics, project management and business so I could make a profession of it if I cared to but I am too involved in other things like trying to keep Finnegan from breaking my tube collection.



And working on the Cowen, which is your most important life's work to date.  Can't even believe you left that out of the sentence.  Now if you rename it to @UntilThen it will immediately have to be re-classified into the same category as Bose and Beats.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> And working on the Cowen, which is your most important life's work to date.  Can't even believe you left that out of the sentence.  Now if you rename it to @UntilThen it will immediately have to be re-classified into the same category as Bose and Beats.


I should also like to contribute the the name of the amp: think The Deaf Cowen. Or, The Cowen Donkey. The Cowen Deaf sounds even better!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 1, 2021)

bcowen said:


> And working on the Cowen, which is your most important life's work to date.  Can't even believe you left that out of the sentence.  Now if you rename it to @UntilThen it will immediately have to be re-classified into the same category as Bose and Beats.


Hey once it has Telefunken tubes, and better capacitors and such I may name it the Old Deaf Donkey, the man deserves it lol.  I must say though, Cowen Donkey has a nice ring to it.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 1, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Hey once it has Telefunken tubes, and better capacitors and such I may name it the Old Deaf Donkey, the man deserves it lol.  I must say though, Cowen Donkey has a nice ring to it.


Cowen Donkey sounds appealing, what about Donkey Cowen ? My friend sent me the tracking number for the tubes already, so I can follow the shipment now. As soon as I have the package in Brussels I will ship it to you by UPS, so you should have it in 3 weeks the latest.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I should also like to contribute the the name of the amp: think The Deaf Cowen. Or, The Cowen Donkey. The Cowen Deaf sounds even better!



I used to like you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I must say though, Cowen Donkey has a nice ring to it.



And I _expected_ that from you.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 1, 2021)

bcowen said:


> And I _expected_ that from you.



Now it is just a matter of a lot of wiring


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


>


no out for HF???


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 1, 2021)

Not yet, first I have to win a bet as shown, then I can modify it later. This is made to run highly efficient speakers as such, 15 watts. If I do headphone jacks I will put two of them in parallel for higher and lower impedance headphones. I did not get the best photo of the front, when the light hits the tiger maple just right it really shows it off.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now it is just a matter of a lot of wiring



And putting in the sorbothane.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And putting in the sorbothane.


Well duh!!!  Without that how can I call it a Cowen? I will most likely be keeping the amp and then the sorbothane comes out. Want to bet me I do not get this completed today?


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Hey once it has Telefunken tubes, and better capacitors and such I may name it the Old Deaf Donkey, the man deserves it lol.  I must say though, Cowen Donkey has a nice ring to it.


Only if it has GE tubes ans sorbothane feet.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> Not yet, first I have to win a bet as shown, then I can modify it later. This is made to run highly efficient speakers as such, 15 watts. If I do headphone jacks I will put two of them in parallel for higher and lower impedance headphones. I did not get the best photo of the front, when the light hits the tiger maple just right it really shows it off.



Ok give me that. 15 watts I can run Susvara with it. Put a xlr 4-pin balance out on it please and name it UntilThen because that is such a great name. I should register that name.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Only if it has GE tubes ans sorbothane feet.



Then naming it the *ODD* amp would be most appropriate.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Only if it has GE tubes ans sorbothane feet.


Oh good Bangy Bang has them. Bill buy a pair of these for me and I will keep the Cowen name on the amp as long as those tubes are being used.     I can only do GE drivers though, those power tubes are another matter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...492599?hash=item46a72d9337:g:I7gAAOSw4TVeJEQh


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> And working on the Cowen, which is your most important life's work to date.  Can't even believe you left that out of the sentence.  Now if you rename it to @UntilThen it will immediately have to be re-classified into the same category as Bose and Beats.



Now that is hitting below the belt ! In boxing if you do that, you will have your ears chewed off.   

Don't you miss me sparring with you? But you have ODD and Paladin to do that and they do more than spar.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Want to bet me I do not get this completed today?



Slacker.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> I have spent much of my career in electronics, project management and business so I could make a profession of it if I cared to but I am too involved in other things like trying to keep Finnegan from breaking my tube collection.



I'm just a professional poker player who happen to love amps, not just tube amps.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Don't you miss me sparring with you? But you have ODD and Paladin to do that and they do more than spar.



Yes!  Where have you been?  Hanging out in other threads?  I'm hurt.


----------



## Mr Trev

UntilThen said:


> Nonsense. Change the name to UntilThen and demand will exceed supply. Question is how much does @Paladin79 want to grow his business. This could be the ZMF of amps. Amps in every type of wood.





bcowen said:


> And working on the Cowen, which is your most important life's work to date.  Can't even believe you left that out of the sentence.  Now if you rename it to @UntilThen it will immediately have to be re-classified into the same category as Bose and Beats.





Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I should also like to contribute the the name of the amp: think The Deaf Cowen. Or, The Cowen Donkey. The Cowen Deaf sounds even better!



Naming rights bidding war? Fight, Fight, Fight…


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Yes!  Where have you been?  Hanging out in other threads?  I'm hurt.



I'm in great demand and I am needed in all of Head-Fi. Everywhere I go, I tell them that I love a specific gear until then.... The only thing that is not 'until then' is my beloved German Shepherd. He's with me until the end. He's typing all this, remember?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Oh good Bangy Bang has them. Bill buy a pair of these for me and I will keep the Cowen name on the amp as long as those tubes are being used.     I can only do GE drivers though, those power tubes are another matter.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...492599?hash=item46a72d9337:g:I7gAAOSw4TVeJEQh



If you ever see me buying GE tubes (intentionally), I should be put in front of a firing squad immediately.  And if you ever see me buying _anything_ from BangyBang, I should be put in the gas chamber immediately after the firing squad is done.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Then naming it the *ODD* amp would be most appropriate.


Hey!


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> Naming rights bidding war? Fight, Fight, Fight…



Oooooo Mr Trev is keeping tabs of what we say. Don't worry, in that fight there is only one outcome. UntilThen will trump over Cowen and ODD ! Gosh ODD, I almost choked. I thought Cowen was bad enough.


----------



## UntilThen

What happened? Where did everyone go?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> If you ever see me buying GE tubes (intentionally), I should be put in front of a firing squad immediately.  And if you ever see me buying _anything_ from BangyBang, I should be put in the gas chamber immediately after the firing squad is done.



BangyBang is actually a great name. It's readily identifiable. I mean you bang the tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> What happened? Where did everyone go?


I am having lunch then I will be finishing the Cowen if all goes well. No sign of @sqitis yet, maybe too much bourbon and prosecco last night?


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> I am having lunch then I will be finishing the Cowen if all goes well. No sign of @sqitis yet, maybe too much bourbon and prosecco last night?



WHAT THE ..... That amp is worthy of big bold CAPS. Do you need such big black shields. Maybe show more of the LS50? However it's a statement amp and I want it and I definitely want it called UntilThen.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> I am having lunch then I will be finishing the Cowen if all goes well. No sign of @sqitis yet, maybe too much bourbon and prosecco last night?


I'm alive! Actually took it very easy last night, bed by 12:02am.......LOL


----------



## UntilThen

Hey @bcowen, Head-Fi did not reset the monthly score so only 14 points separates us and you could owe me 1 million bucks by the time today is over.


----------



## Paladin79

sqitis said:


> I'm alive! Actually took it very easy last night, bed by 12:02am.......LOL


We have some local folks who tend to shoot off fireworks and guns at the drop of a hat so I was up till after they were finished.


----------



## UntilThen

I have a question for those amp savvy amongst you. If given a chance between Questyle CMA Twelve and Auralic Taurus Mk2, which would you choose if price is not a consideration?


----------



## Paladin79

I do have help.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I do have help.


Finnegan has that "I am about to do something naughty" look on his face. Probably intimidated by that humongous transformer.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

UntilThen said:


> BangyBang is actually a great name. It's readily identifiable. I mean you bang the tubes.


No. Bangy Bangs you


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 1, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> WHAT THE ..... That amp is worthy of big bold CAPS. Do you need such big black shields. Maybe show more of the LS50? However it's a statement amp and I want it and I definitely want it called UntilThen.


The caps will be underneath. Yes I do need such transformer covers. I could get by with one smaller one but I am a Gemini, I like two’s. I will show more of the tubes later. I have no plans of selling such amps unless I can get this one to sound amazing.

While the GE tubes are tempting, I have these on the way.


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> No. Bangy Bangs you



ROFL!  That sums it up quite concisely and accurately.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 1, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I do have help.





sam6550a said:


> Finnegan has that "I am about to do something naughty" look on his face. Probably intimidated by that humongous transformer.



That's a possibility.  I took it as more of "I am not amused by this disorganized pile of clutter I'm forced to sit amongst" kind of look.  But knocking stuff off the table and watching it hit the floor will rectify that shortly...


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Hey @bcowen, Head-Fi did not reset the monthly score so only 14 points separates us and you could owe me 1 million bucks by the time today is over.



I already complained to the mods.  No response yet, but I'm pretty sure it's at the very top of their to-do list.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's a possibility.  I took it more of "I am not amused by this disorganized pile of clutter I'm forced to sit amongst" kind of look.  But knocking stuff off the table and watching it hit the floor will rectify that shortly...


He is just mad the power tubes are in metal cases and lacking opposable thumbs, he cannot get to them.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> He is just mad the power tubes are in metal cases and lacking opposable thumbs, he cannot get to them.



You cut his thumbs off?  That was mean.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I have a question for those amp savvy amongst you. If given a chance between Questyle CMA Twelve and Auralic Taurus Mk2, which would you choose if price is not a consideration?



Neither.  They're both solid state.

You *did* say amp _savvy_...   

Now if the decision was between the Cowen or the UntilThen, _definitely_ the former.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> While the GE tubes are tempting, I have these on the way.



I use those EF80 on the La Figaro 339 and they sound good but I prefer their cousins the EF86.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I already complained to the mods.  No response yet, but I'm pretty sure it's at the very top of their to-do list.



I can't like this even though it's funny.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Neither.  They're both solid state.
> 
> You *did* say amp _savvy_...
> 
> Now if the decision was between the Cowen or the UntilThen, _definitely_ the former.



I have decided already. After reading this review, I'm letting the Questyle go (after a day of bliss) and will get the Taurus because I want it to drive He6se and Susvara. I guess this will replace the Ragnarok which I had and sold and then wonder why I did that.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...ic-taurus-mkii-balanced-headphone-amp-review/


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> You cut his thumbs off?  That was mean.


Cut his thumbs off? That would give me paws!


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Cut his thumbs off? That would give me paws!


Well done, I could not think of a comment lol.


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> I have decided already. After reading this review, I'm letting the Questyle go (after a day of bliss) and will get the Taurus because I want it to drive He6se and Susvara. I guess this will replace the Ragnarok which I had and sold and then wonder why I did that.
> 
> https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...ic-taurus-mkii-balanced-headphone-amp-review/



Correction. Not getting the Auralic Taurus Mk2 now. Getting a Violectric v280 instead to go with my Yggy. I blame @bcowen for these last minute changes.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Cut his thumbs off? That would give me paws!



*R O F L !!!*


----------



## UntilThen

@bcowen 2 points separate us. Hand over your property and bank account.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> @bcowen 2 points separate us. Hand over your property and bank account.



You can have it all.  Except the tubes.  Get too close to them and I'll back the tank out of the garage. It laughs at lakes.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You can have it all.  Except the tubes.  Get too close to them and I'll back the tank out of the garage. It laughs at lakes.



Some days when the going gets tough, I just need to hear your voice. It does make me laugh and relax. Thanks Becowen.


----------



## UntilThen

@bcowen wake up. I'm 584 and you're 581. Time to pay up. I want everything including the Calvin Klein singlet.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 2, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> @bcowen wake up. I'm 584 and you're 581. Time to pay up. I want everything including the Calvin Klein singlet.



Well, dangit.  Come on over.  Tubes have already been sent to Fort Knox (temporarily) for security purposes.  I'd suggest bringing a large suitcase to get everything else of value, even (sigh) the singlet, although the bottom part will probably be _way_ too large for you.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 2, 2021)

The amp formerly known as Cowen is up and running, first time. I am running some Definitive Technology speakers, for first listen it is pretty good, tubes will be a factor.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The amp formerly known as Cowen is up and running, first time. I am running some Definitive Technology speakers, for first listen it is pretty good, tubes will be a factor.



You haven't put any Q-Tips in the jars tubes yet?  That will probably smooth out the treble a bit.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 2, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You haven't put any Q-Tips in the jars tubes yet?  That will probably smooth out the treble a bit.


Hey those tubes are Finnegan proof, he was helping me hook up the amp a few minutes ago. I am running all new tubes, I only had the proto type going for a half hour maybe.

I was watching WW 2 in color on Netflix as I built the amp, hoping to spot some of those tubes in action lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey those tubes are Finnegan proof, he was helping me hook up the amp a few minutes ago. I am running all new tubes, I only had the proto type going for a half hour maybe.
> 
> I was watching WW 2 in color on Netflix as I built the amp, hoping to spot some of those tubes in action lol.



Well, you already know that Russian tubes take around 100 hours to break-in fully, right?  LOLOLOLOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 2, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Well, you already know that Russian tubes take around 100 hours to break-in fully, right?  LOLOLOLOL!!!


It seems like someone used to say that till I introduced some sanity into the conversation.  

I put in some Hytron drivers and that helps. The treble on what was handed to me would peel the paint off a barn. I may have to run them several days with the sound turned down since I have to use them in my challenge.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well, dangit.  Come on over.  Tubes have already been sent to Fort Knox (temporarily) for security purposes.  I'd suggest bringing a large suitcase to get everything else of value, even (sigh) the singlet, although the bottom part will probably be _way_ too large for you.



Hahaha. You're way too funny. Jim Carrey can't touch you. Comedian !


----------



## UntilThen

UntilThen said:


> Hahaha. You're way too funny. Jim Carrey can't touch you. Comedian !



Sorry I say comedian as a sign of respect. Don't take it wrongly. You're funny and very likeable. 

If you see the score now, you better hand over more than your Calvin Klein brief.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Sorry I say comedian as a sign of respect. Don't take it wrongly. You're funny and very likeable.
> 
> If you see the score now, you better hand over more than your Calvin Klein brief.



I haven't even looked.  I'm on to much more important things now, like doing code forensics on why the 700 PM's I sent to myself aren't counting.  Must be a bug in the forum software, but it's extremely well hidden.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I haven't even looked.  I'm on to much more important things now, like doing code forensics on why the 700 PM's I sent to myself aren't counting.  Must be a bug in the forum software, but it's extremely well hidden.



This is too funny but at the same time so alike what's happening right now in the real world. Just admit you lose and hand me back the crown. Otherwise I'll send the Hitman. I know where live in sunny Ohio.   

612 vs 576 and the gap is widening. 

Let me show you my TV antenna.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> This is too funny but at the same time so alike what's happening right now in the real world. Just admit you lose and hand me back the crown. Otherwise I'll send the Hitman. I know where live in sunny Ohio.
> 
> 612 vs 576 and the gap is widening.
> 
> Let me show you my TV antenna.



So _*you're *_responsible for the sudden increase in RFI around here?  Friggin' Aussies....think you like own the world and stuff.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> So _*you're *_responsible for the sudden increase in RFI around here?  Friggin' Aussies....think you like own the world and stuff.



We don't own the world. That's too much responsibilities. We do have nice beaches and sun tan bodies though.  Don't you agree?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> We don't own the world. That's too much responsibilities. We do have nice beaches and sun tan bodies though.  Don't you agree?



OK.  I'll man-up and admit that's quite pretty.  And extremely tempting.  Is your plane available? 


Still, it would be hard to leave home though...


----------



## UntilThen

That's some archaeological sites you live in. Is that Babylon or Normandy beach landing?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That's some archaeological sites you live in. Is that Babylon or Normandy beach landing?



Detroit.  Same difference.


----------



## yonson

As someone that lives too close to Detroit, that is quite accurate...


----------



## Paladin79

I loaned @sqitis  a few pairs of 6sn7's including some I had in the Freya plus. I just put a couple 50's Fotons in the Freya and now the Cowen amp is sounding exceptional, it is an amp I will keep and use. It should improve a bit with better tubes but right now the sound is giving me goose bumps. High frequencies are clean and clear, mids are glorious, and bass is tight and accurate. I will continue to call it the Cowen for a bit since @bcowen was important in introducing me to Fotons.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

_*Holy hell. Bangy bang?!*_ I was trying to find a thread to learn more about my Schiit Lyr 3 headphone amp. I think I'll park my cursor here.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I loaned @sqitis  a few pairs of 6sn7's including some I had in the Freya plus. I just put a couple 50's Fotons in the Freya and now the Cowen amp is sounding exceptional, it is an amp I will keep and use. It should improve a bit with better tubes but right now the sound is giving me goose bumps. High frequencies are clean and clear, mids are glorious, and bass is tight and accurate. I will continue to call it the Cowen for a bit since @bcowen was important in introducing me to Fotons.



LOL!!  Seems there was a guy with a very similar name that first told you about the Melz a couple years ago (in another venue). But my memory is fallible, so it's quite possible I'm right.   "The Cowen" has kind of a nice ring to it, but I totally understand if you want to change the name to something less obnoxious....as long as it's not to the " @UntilThen ". That would be weird.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!!  Seems there was a guy with a very similar name that first told you about the Melz a couple years ago (in another venue). But my memory is fallible, so it's quite possible I'm right.   "The Cowen" has kind of a nice ring to it, but I totally understand if you want to change the name to something less obnoxious....as long as it's not to the " @UntilThen ". That would be weird.


Come to think of it you may have mumbled something about a Melz once but I was having trouble picking up on whatever North Carolina dialect you were using.    I might just call it the Finnegan since he helped build it. I am about to pop two 58 Melz solid plate into the Freya just to see what happens. Too bad this thing is too heavy to ship as a sample.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Come to think of it you may have mumbled something about a Melz once but I was having trouble picking up on whatever North Carolina dialect you were using.    I might just call it the Finnegan since he helped build it. I am about to pop two 58 Melz solid plate into the Freya just to see what happens. Too bad this thing is too heavy to ship as a sample.



LOL!  I'd probably just eaten some Texas BBQ, and vowels tend to get a little mangled when you're hurling.  

As long as you don't call it the 'Naughty Girl' I'm sure whatever you decide on will be cool.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 3, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'd probably just eaten some Texas BBQ, and vowels tend to get a little mangled when you're hurling.
> 
> As long as you don't call it the 'Naughty Girl' I'm sure whatever you decide on will be cool.


The Naughty Girl name is reserved for some special tubes so of course I could not use it here, hmm I do wonder if I have enough adaptors to plug eight of them into the Freya, I will look later. The 58's did not sound as good as I hoped in the Freya. I do have more driver tubes on the way for the Cowen, the Fotons smooth out the treble, they are not as descriptive but just not as musical right now.

By the way Bill do you own any pairs of EF 80's, EF 800's, or 6BX6's?

Oh yeah what is the difference in the BBQ's again?  They use cow parts and you use pig parts?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> By the way Bill do you own any pairs of EF 80's, EF 800's, or 6BX6's?



No, have never had any component that used any of those, so have never purchased any.



Paladin79 said:


> Oh yeah what is the difference in the BBQ's again?  They use cow parts and you use pig parts?



They "Texas-ize" it somehow.  Perhaps the best analogy would be a speaker amp for low sensitivity, low impedance speakers using a single 6DJ8 as an output tube.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!!  Seems there was a guy with a very similar name that first told you about the Melz a couple years ago (in another venue). But my memory is fallible, so it's quite possible I'm right.   "The Cowen" has kind of a nice ring to it, but I totally understand if you want to change the name to something less obnoxious....as long as it's not to the " @UntilThen ". That would be weird.





Paladin79 said:


> Come to think of it you may have mumbled something about a Melz once but I was having trouble picking up on whatever North Carolina dialect you were using.    I might just call it the Finnegan since he helped build it. I am about to pop two 58 Melz solid plate into the Freya just to see what happens. Too bad this thing is too heavy to ship as a sample.





Paladin79 said:


> The Naughty Girl name is reserved for some special tubes so of course I could not use it here, hmm I do wonder if I have enough adaptors to plug eight of them into the Freya, I will look later. The 58's did not sound as good as I hoped in the Freya. I do have more driver tubes on the way for the Cowen, the Fotons smooth out the treble, they are not as descriptive but just not as musical right now.



The amp is using Soviet tubes, right? It should be named "Glass-nost"


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> The amp is using Soviet tubes, right? It should be named "Glass-nost"



ROFL!!  I like it.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> The amp is using Soviet tubes, right? It should be named "Glass-nost"


LOL

It has Russian tubes until after I win a bet, then it will have Telefunken most likely. Apparently RFT made some as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SRS552M-WF...249476?hash=item3fe76758c4:g:OeQAAOSw8Y5fPhqb


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> LOL
> 
> It has Russian tubes until after I win a bet, then it will have Telefunken most likely. Apparently RFT made some as well.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/SRS552M-WF...249476?hash=item3fe76758c4:g:OeQAAOSw8Y5fPhqb



I missed it, what's this bet about anyhow?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 3, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> I missed it, what's this bet about anyhow?


Some friends bet me I could not build a class A set amp of 15 watts or more using parts they handed me. The unusual Russian pentodes came from them as well as capacitors, wire, and a choke.
Basically I had to use their bucket of parts and do my best. Other friends will hear the amp and decide if it is viable. Now I get to use my own pre amp and with the right tubes in it, the Cowen is sounding glorious at the moment. I will just say in excess of $1,000  was wagered. Once the bet is over I will upgrade many items  and get to keep the amp.
I made it somewhat pretty just in case lol. Oh and I get to use my own speakers to demo it, luckily they will need no modification. I knew I could play with pre-amp and speakers a bit so I figured I had an 70% chance or better of winning the bet. Pentodes can be used as triodes of course.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Some friends bet me I could not build a class A set amp of 15 watts or more using parts they handed me. The unusual Russian pentodes came from them as well as capacitors, wire, and a choke.
> Basically I had to use their bucket of parts and do my best. Other friends will hear the amp and decide if it is viable. Now I get to use my own pre amp and with the right tubes in it, the Cowen is sounding glorious at the moment. I will just say in excess of $1,000  was wagered. Once the bet is over I will upgrade many items  and get to keep the amp.
> I made it somewhat pretty just in case lol. Oh and I get to use my own speakers to demo it, luckily they will need no modification. I knew I could play with pre-amp and speakers a bit so I figured I had an 70% chance or better of winning the bet. Pentodes can be used as triodes of course.



Great concept for a bet.
Gimme your address. I bet you can't turn one of my Little Bears into a fookin awesome sounding amp.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 3, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Great concept for a bet.
> Gimme your address. I bet you can't turn one of my Little Bears into a fookin awesome sounding amp.


I just spent two freaking weekends repairing a Chinese amp for a guy on here. It was not made to be repaired to the best of my estimation lol. Getting its main board out meant unsoldering the power transformer, 16 wires or more, through the tube socket holes lol. The little dot is the second photo, only thing that plus in is the volume pot and they used frigging ribbon cable with maybe 30 awg wire on that. No shielding whatsoever.



Ok bet me $1800 but your amp may look very different when you get it back.   I may use the original fuse and AC socket.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I just spent two freaking weekends repairing a Chinese amp for a guy on here. It was not made to be repaired to the best of my estimation lol. Getting its main board out meant unsoldering the power transformer, 16 wires or more, through the tube socket holes lol. The little dot is the second photo, only thing that plus in is the volume pot and they used frigging ribbon cable with maybe 30 awg wire on that. No shielding whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok bet me $1800 but your amp may look very different when you get it back.   I may use the original fuse and AC socket.



Yup. These things are pretty awful to work on. I'd imagine if you did agree on a bet you'd probably just throw the amp in the garbage and let me win, to save yourself the headache. For the record the Little Bear doesn't even have a fuse and AC socket - switching power supply.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Yup. These things are pretty awful to work on. I'd imagine if you did agree on a bet you'd probably just throw the amp in the garbage and let me win, to save yourself the headache. For the record the Little Bear doesn't even have a fuse and AC socket - switching power supply.


Yeah I do not know them well. I have repaired other Chinese amps and space wise they do not allow for a lot of upgrades.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah I do not know them well. I have repaired other Chinese amps and space wise they do not allow for a lot of upgrades.


Maybe one day I'll challenge you to convert my Vali2 to 6SN7 native - see how I swing this to back on topic


----------



## UntilThen

ScubaMan2017 said:


> _*Holy hell. Bangy bang?!*_ I was trying to find a thread to learn more about my Schiit Lyr 3 headphone amp. I think I'll park my cursor here.



You came to the right place where any bang will do.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> LOL!!  Seems there was a guy with a very similar name that first told you about the Melz a couple years ago (in another venue). But my memory is fallible, so it's quite possible I'm right.   "The Cowen" has kind of a nice ring to it, but I totally understand if you want to change the name to something less obnoxious....as long as it's not to the " @UntilThen ". That would be weird.



Ok I think this is getting personal but seriously UntilThen is an ingenious name.


----------



## UntilThen

Mr Trev said:


> The amp is using Soviet tubes, right? It should be named "Glass-nost"



Very good Trev sorry I miss out the Mr. That's a good cartoon.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Great concept for a bet.
> Gimme your address. I bet you can't turn one of my Little Bears into a fookin awesome sounding amp.



I would advise some caution here.  Without parameters, @Paladin79 could turn it into a giant killer.  May not even resemble a Little Bear or even have the same parts any more, but again....parameters.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Ok I think this is getting personal but seriously UntilThen is an ingenious name.



No otense infended.  Promise.  Just seeing if you were still awake, as I've gained a few posts on you.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> No otense infended.  Promise.  Just seeing if you were still awake, as I've gained a few posts on you.



Not offended at all. Just having a good laugh. Resume work today so post count will likely drop to minus 10. 😃


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Not offended at all. Just having a good laugh. Resume work today so post count will likely drop to minus 10. 😃



Oh, that's right!  It's already tomorrow there.


----------



## UntilThen

That’s right it’s Monday here. You’re behind ... as usual hahaha hohoho. 😀


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I would advise some caution here.  Without parameters, @Paladin79 could turn it into a giant killer.  May not even resemble a Little Bear or even have the same parts any more, but again....parameters.  LOL!


I tend to win bets except for one I recall, drinking was involved. 🤪


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I tend to win bets except for one I recall, drinking was involved. 🤪



Well if drinking is involved, then there is no losing per se.  More of a status.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Well if drinking is involved, then there is no losing per se.  More of a status.


If you can recall, then either the drink or the bet was not enough?...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If you can recall, then either the drink or the bet was not enough?...



I wasn't involved in that bet, although I do feel slighted in being left out.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> If you can recall, then either the drink or the bet was not enough?...


I tend to retain information when I want to.
It just involves chugging a drink and remaining standing in one spot. As long as the other person is honest I can win it against most anyone and we do not leave our current locations.


----------



## JTbbb

Wanted, matched pair of Mullard ecc32 brown base. I know what these are worth and am willing to pay top price for the right tubes 

PM me if you can help.


----------



## JTbbb

Anybody out there know their Mullard tubes? I’m looking at these, but something is putting me off, err on the side of caution. It may be that the dozens of tubes I have looked at mostly have more information on them to be able to identify where manufactured and date. Any help much welcome.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Anybody out there know their Mullard tubes? I’m looking at these, but something is putting me off, err on the side of caution. It may be that the dozens of tubes I have looked at mostly have more information on them to be able to identify where manufactured and date. Any help much welcome.



I don't know much about these to be honest.  However, as there is no getter flashing up top it means that the getters are likely at the bottom...so what is that white ring at the bottom of the glass?  Looks to me like powdery white getter flashing which would mean both tubes have lost their vacuum.  Is the seller stating these are tested?


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> I don't know much about these to be honest.  However, as there is no getter flashing up top it means that the getters are likely at the bottom...so what is that white ring at the bottom of the glass?  Looks to me like powdery white getter flashing which would mean both tubes have lost their vacuum.  Is the seller stating these are tested?



Yes tested as NOS, never opened. I did notice the powdery deposit too. I’m going to stick with my gut feeling and keep looking.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

bcowen said:


> I don't know much about these to be honest.  However, as there is no getter flashing up top it means that the getters are likely at the bottom...so what is that white ring at the bottom of the glass?  Looks to me like powdery white getter flashing which would mean both tubes have lost their vacuum.  Is the seller stating these are tested?



How could they loose the vacuum if they are very silver in the bottom on the inside? My best guess is that the powdery white stuff is cement glue _outside_ attaching the base to the bulb. I tried to look it up back in the day but could not find out why was it white and not yellow or orange.
Maybe this is why some of the tubes have a gray tape/band around that area?
If Mullard had been allowing tubes with flashing material partially splattered outside through their quality control then the brand should be avoided altogether not just in this instance.


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> How could they loose the vacuum if they are very silver in the bottom on the inside? My best guess is that the powdery white stuff is cement glue _outside_ attaching the base to the bulb. I tried to look it up back in the day but could not find out why was it white and not yellow or orange.
> Maybe this is why some of the tubes have a gray tape/band around that area?
> If Mullard had been allowing tubes with flashing material partially splattered outside through their quality control then the brand should be avoided altogether not just in this instance.



It's hard to tell definitively from the pictures, but it looks like the "white stuff" is on the inside, not the outside. That's not shiny silver, it's white. The darker coloration completely surrounding the inside of the bottle is not getter flash -- it's a coating that was used on many tubes of that era intended to absorb stray electrons and keep them more focused between the cathode and the plate.

It would be rather impossible to have getter flash splattered on the outside of the tube unless there was a hole in the glass.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

bcowen said:


> It's hard to tell definitively from the pictures, but it looks like the "white stuff" is on the inside, not the outside. That's not shiny silver, it's white. The darker coloration completely surrounding the inside of the bottle is not getter flash -- it's a coating that was used on many tubes of that era intended to absorb stray electrons and keep them more focused between the cathode and the plate.
> 
> It would be rather impossible to have getter flash splattered on the outside of the tube unless there was a hole in the glass.



I agree that it's hard to say whether it's inside or outside. There is still a lot of silver colour between white material and the gray carbon screen spray you mentioned though.


----------



## LoryWiv

Are ECC32 / CV181 drop in replacements for 6SN7 without adapters, only difference being 0.95 amp heater current rather than 0.6 amp for 6SN7?


----------



## JTbbb

LoryWiv said:


> Are ECC32 / CV181 drop in replacements for 6SN7 without adapters, only difference being 0.95 amp heater current rather than 0.6 amp for 6SN7?



Yes that is correct, without adapters. And yes there is the increased heater current you have to take into account.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

JTbbb said:


> Yes that is correct, without adapters. And yes there is the increased heater current you have to take into account.


and the price to go with it
https://www.ebay.com/itm/cv181-tube...605545?hash=item3b53d605a9:g:BDoAAOSw~Jhf2ct7


----------



## attmci (Jan 7, 2021)

Another way to cheat. LOL.




https://www.ebay.com/itm/184611081796?ul_ref=https%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F0%2Fe11021.m43.l1120%2F7%3Feuid%3D8fec2f866b9947d8a11aa4d98d91bd94%26bu%3D43143433688%26ut%3DRU%26segname%3D11021%26crd%3D20210107074933%26osub%3D-1%7E1%26ch%3Dosgood%26loc%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fulk%252Fitm%252F184611081796%26sojTags%3Dbu%3Dbu%2Cut%3Dut%2Cch%3Dch%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Curl%3Dloc%2Cosub%3Dosub%26srcrot%3De11021.m43.l1120%26rvr_id%3D0%26rvr_ts%3Ddebd233d1760a9c16c339c21ffff50a9&ul_noapp=true


----------



## JTbbb

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> and the price to go with it
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/cv181-tube...605545?hash=item3b53d605a9:g:BDoAAOSw~Jhf2ct7



Yes bonkers prices. And they have been there quite a while.


----------



## JKDJedi

JTbbb said:


> Anybody out there know their Mullard tubes? I’m looking at these, but something is putting me off, err on the side of caution. It may be that the dozens of tubes I have looked at mostly have more information on them to be able to identify where manufactured and date. Any help much welcome.


Send those to me for further evaluation.


----------



## JKDJedi

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> and the price to go with it
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/cv181-tube...605545?hash=item3b53d605a9:g:BDoAAOSw~Jhf2ct7


I emailed tubedepot about the ones they have listed for $250... been about two weeks..no answer.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I emailed tubedepot about the ones they have listed for $250... been about two weeks..no answer.



Did you read the fine print at the bottom?  "$500 shipping/handling fee per tube."


----------



## jonathan c

[QUOTE="bcowen, post: 16090491, member: 489394"
Did you read the fine print at the bottom?  "$500 shipping/handling fee per tube."  

  
[/QUOTE]
That is even before the “cereal” disclaimer?: contents may have settled during shipment....


----------



## Tom-s

JTbbb said:


> Anybody out there know their Mullard tubes? I’m looking at these, but something is putting me off, err on the side of caution. It may be that the dozens of tubes I have looked at mostly have more information on them to be able to identify where manufactured and date. Any help much welcome.



That pair looks fine to me. In my experience with ECC32's they do have single bottom getter. Either the old style Philips foil getter or D getter. One this pair the getter flash as seen looks good. Once the getter gets used because of a leak it'll start to whiten up around its edges. I cannot explain the whit cement like substance at the bottom of the glass. If these pass a test for gas. I'd expect them to stay fine. Once a ECC32 gets worn, the top will start to show silvering / blackening above the heaters in two box shaped forms as a result of the cooling fins.



LoryWiv said:


> Are ECC32 / CV181 drop in replacements for 6SN7 without adapters, only difference being 0.95 amp heater current rather than 0.6 amp for 6SN7?



A lot of people will say they are. But really are not. They'll bias up close enough for a lot of occasions but in some amps (with a DC coupled CCS loaded driver stage) a weak pair could bias 30-40% higher plate voltages and trow off the operating point of the second stage significantly. And make the amp distort more easily. And the mentioned higher heater current could overload the heater winding on your amplifier (and burn the house down; I'm such an optimist  ). So always ask the manufacturer of your amplifier if it's safe to use these. They're not plug and play 6SN7's.


----------



## JTbbb

JKDJedi said:


> I emailed tubedepot about the ones they have listed for $250... been about two weeks..no answer.



Strange that they haven’t been in touch. I emailed them recently and got a comprehensive reply and plenty of pictures. They appear to have 3 pairs and I would of definitely bought one of them. But I’ve come across a pair nearer to home so I won’t have the postage delay, but more importantly nor the import duty.


----------



## JTbbb

Tom-s said:


> That pair looks fine to me. In my experience with ECC32's they do have single bottom getter. Either the old style Philips foil getter or D getter. One this pair the getter flash as seen looks good. Once the getter gets used because of a leak it'll start to whiten up around its edges. I cannot explain the whit cement like substance at the bottom of the glass. If these pass a test for gas. I'd expect them to stay fine. Once a ECC32 gets worn, the top will start to show silvering / blackening above the heaters in two box shaped forms as a result of the cooling fins.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people will say they are. But really are not. They'll bias up close enough for a lot of occasions but in some amps (with a DC coupled CCS loaded driver stage) a weak pair could bias 30-40% higher plate voltages and trow off the operating point of the second stage significantly. And make the amp distort more easily. And the mentioned higher heater current could overload the heater winding on your amplifier (and burn the house down; I'm such an optimist  ). So always ask the manufacturer of your amplifier if it's safe to use these. They're not plug and play 6SN7's.



I know I have been chatting about ecc32 tubes in these pages. But I would like to point out that I have been in touch with my amp manufacture, and they have given it the ok. So it’s good advice from Tom-s.


----------



## Interceptor69

Paladin79 said:


> Not yet, first I have to win a bet as shown, then I can modify it later. This is made to run highly efficient speakers as such, 15 watts. If I do headphone jacks I will put two of them in parallel for higher and lower impedance headphones. I did not get the best photo of the front, when the light hits the tiger maple just right it really shows it off.


That's a beautiful case.


----------



## Paladin79

Interceptor69 said:


> That's a beautiful case.


Thanks, I found more honey locust in my wood pile, I may incorporate it in an amp case. It looks like this:




I am going to build another 6sn7 Incubus amp in purple heart and may make a matching headphone stand and cables, it will be a loaner so people can hear one of my designs.


----------



## Interceptor69

That's nice woodwork.  I wish I had the tools, skills, patience and time to do that type of work.  Or I suppose one should think of this as not work but play or passion.  Do you sell your tube headphone amps?  I see you live in Indiana?  I'm in Tennessee.  Not that far a drive...


----------



## Interceptor69

I came here to learn about possible tubes for my soon-to-arrive Shitt Frey+ but I stumbled upon this wonderful thread of humor, Frankenstein-style amp building and tube knowledge.  More entertaining than most threads here for sure!


----------



## Paladin79

Interceptor69 said:


> I came here to learn about possible tubes for my soon-to-arrive Shitt Frey+ but I stumbled upon this wonderful thread of humor, Frankenstein-style amp building and tube knowledge.  More entertaining than most threads here for sure!


I own a Freya + and have tried many types of tubes in it, soon it heads back to Schiit for repair and I am using the pre-amp out on a Mjolnir. With the amp I just built, I really liked Foton tubes in the gain stage because the high frequencies of the power amp I just built were a bit harsh. @bcowen knows more about the Fotons and I changed those for a specific reason, normally I love Melz 1578's and CBS/Hytron 5692's in the Freya.


----------



## Paladin79

Interceptor69 said:


> That's nice woodwork.  I wish I had the tools, skills, patience and time to do that type of work.  Or I suppose one should think of this as not work but play or passion.  Do you sell your tube headphone amps?  I see you live in Indiana?  I'm in Tennessee.  Not that far a drive...


I have sold some to friends and gifted seven of them to other friends and employees. My daughter was working for UT in Knoxville so I know some of the drive, I have also stayed at a resort east of Nashville. 

Honey locust is not real common and difficult to work with IMHO so I have only made one of those for myself. Often I will use rainbow poplar, various types of maple, walnut, cherry etc.


----------



## Interceptor69

Paladin79 said:


> I own a Freya + and have tried many types of tubes in it, soon it heads back to Schiit for repair and I am using the pre-amp out on a Mjolnir. With the amp I just built, I really liked Foton tubes in the gain stage because the high frequencies of the power amp I just built were a bit harsh. @bcowen knows more about the Fotons and I changed those for a specific reason, normally I love Melz 1578's and CBS/Hytron 5692's in the Freya.


Back for repair? Uh oh...


----------



## Paladin79

Interceptor69 said:


> Back for repair? Uh oh...


I have used it for a year and a half, things fail but Schiit has a good warranty. I know them pretty well and even helped Jason with a 6SN7 tube challenge.


----------



## Interceptor69

Paladin79 said:


> I have used it for a year and a half, things fail but Schiit has a good warranty. I know them pretty well and even helped Jason with a 6SN7 tube challenge.


Glad to know they have a good warranty.


----------



## yonson

So how do you know when/if your tubes are starting to go bad?  The 2 I have in my Saga+ have been running 24/7 since June, haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary yet...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 12, 2021)

yonson said:


> So how do you know when/if your tubes are starting to go bad?  The 2 I have in my Saga+ have been running 24/7 since June, haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary yet...


An easy way to tell is to send them to @bcowen for evaluation, he will say they are bad and offer to "dispose" of them for you.  

The Saga only takes one tube correct.

Seriously if you have been rotating them that is 2160 hours each so they should have plenty of life still in them. It may not be a bad idea to have a brand new tube to put in the Saga on occasion just to compare with the others.

Even at 24 hours a day for one tube I have heard two years is feasible. 

If a tube starts to go you might get noise, a lack of high end or muddled bass. I keep a lot of tubes so I do not have many issues with wearing one out, I can also monitor each channel to know if the output of each channel is still relatively close. I use VU meters.


----------



## yonson

Paladin79 said:


> An easy way to tell is to send them to @bcowen for evaluation, he will say they are bad and offer to "dispose" of them for you.
> 
> The Saga only takes one tube correct.
> 
> ...


I'm running a pair of 7193's in it, I have a spare set for when they start to go.


----------



## Paladin79

yonson said:


> I'm running a pair of 7193's in it, I have a spare set for when they start to go.


I should have figured that out lol, it has been a long day for me. That is a good way to go, if you ever have any doubts you can insert the other pair.


----------



## bcowen

yonson said:


> So how do you know when/if your tubes are starting to go bad?  The 2 I have in my Saga+ have been running 24/7 since June, haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary yet...



As @Paladin79 noted (and excluding noise that starts to develop like hiss, intermittent static-ey sound, hum, etc), the electron emission off the cathode(s) will start to decline as they are used.  Most of the time this decline is so gradual that you don't notice it immediately, but it results in a loss of dynamics, loss of definition and impact in the bass, and treble that starts to sound rather reigned in and lacking extension.  Short of having a tube tester to check the emission level, the easiest way is to plug in a new set of the same tubes and see if you notice any marked improvement as @Paladin79 also recommended.  Small octal tubes like 6SN7's (and 7193's) should easily last 3k+ hours, so you should have lots of life left in the ones you're using now.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> As @Paladin79 noted (and excluding noise that starts to develop like hiss, intermittent static-ey sound, hum, etc), the electron emission off the cathode(s) will start to decline as they are used.  Most of the time this decline is so gradual that you don't notice it immediately, but it results in a loss of dynamics, loss of definition and impact in the bass, and treble that starts to sound rather reigned in and lacking extension.  Short of having a tube tester to check the emission level, the easiest way is to plug in a new set of the same tubes and see if you notice any marked improvement as @Paladin79 also recommended.  Small octal tubes like 6SN7's (and 7193's) should easily last 3k+ hours, so you should have lots of life left in the ones you're using now.



Great the in-depth description of how the sound is affected as a tube wears out. I have been thinking on how worn my current tube might be as I’ve heard some very faint static-ey sounds when totally quiet and no music playing. It coming close to 4000 hours on it by now. After hearing the static I tried a new tube (same brand and type, from the stash) and no static, but otherwise no difference in sound so I guess I’ll be using the old one a bit further! 

Is there some point where the sound starts to degrade more quickly or is it more or less linear until it’s completely worn out?


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> *Small octal tubes like 6SN7's (and 7193's)* should easily last 3k+ hours, so you should have lots of life left in the ones you're using now.



6SN7 small? I guess...


_...that’s not a tube, *this* is a tube!_


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> Great the in-depth description of how the sound is affected as a tube wears out. I have been thinking on how worn my current tube might be as I’ve heard some very faint static-ey sounds when totally quiet and no music playing. It coming close to 4000 hours on it by now. After hearing the static I tried a new tube (same brand and type, from the stash) and no static, but otherwise no difference in sound so I guess I’ll be using the old one a bit further!
> 
> Is there some point where the sound starts to degrade more quickly or is it more or less linear until it’s completely worn out?



In my experience it's pretty linear. At some point the emissions will drop so low that the tube just stops working, but the audible decline will be pretty obvious before you get to that point.  That's just in general....lots of different ways for tubes to (mis)behave as they age and get to the point of needing replacement.  If the static sound in that tube is not obtrusive and everything sounds fine otherwise, I'd keep using it.  Or maybe I should say there's no issue in continuing to use it....*I* probably would have rolled some different tube in its place long before that.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> 6SN7 small? I guess...
> 
> 
> _...that’s not a tube, *this* is a tube!_



ROFL!  My comment of a 6SN7 as small was intended in reference to an octal-based tube used in a pre-amplification or driver application as opposed to an octal-based power tube (6550, KT-88, EL-34, 6AS7, etc) or rectifier (5AR4, GZ-37, 5U4, etc).  Big and small are subjective terms, right?


----------



## JTbbb (Jan 13, 2021)

My brown based Mullard ecc3’s arrived today, and here they are. They are hard to find, relatively expensive but boy I’m lovin em! Edit ecc32’s!


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> My brown based Mullard ecc3’s arrived today, and here they are. They are hard to find, relatively expensive but boy I’m lovin em!



Apologies for the (probable) typo nitpick, but assume you mean ECC32's?  Sweet!!!!


----------



## Paladin79

I keep trying to decide on wood for a loaner 6sn7/6080 amp and continue to find some good choices. Lacewood. It just has a bit of mineral spirits on it to bring out the color.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  My comment of a 6SN7 as small was intended in reference to an octal-based tube used in a pre-amplification or driver application as opposed to an octal-based power tube (6550, KT-88, EL-34, 6AS7, etc) or rectifier (5AR4, GZ-37, 5U4, etc).  Big and small are subjective terms, right?



I thought so, but somehow a classic scene from the movie Crocodile Dundee popped into my head, and I just couldn’t resist..


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I keep trying to decide on wood for a loaner 6sn7/6080 amp and continue to find some good choices. Lacewood. It just has a bit of mineral spirits on it to bring out the color.



That looks pretty sweet, but I'm sticking with my cardboard.  And especially since I just finished coating it with a thick layer of unobtanium.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> That looks pretty sweet, but I'm sticking with my cardboard.  And especially since I just finished coating it with a thick layer of unobtanium.


Did you add sorbothane feet to the cardboard?


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Did you add sorbothane feet to the cardboard?



ROFL!  Sam, of all people you should know that audio grade cardboard has self-damping properties that obviate the need for sorbothane or any other squishy substance that sucks the life out of the music.  So, no...although I did consider it just to make Tom happy.


----------



## Ripper2860

I use a more direct approach and apply treatments to the listener and not the equipment.  Dr. Scholl's gel shoe inserts work a treat and really help reduce listening fatigue.  I cannot vouch for their effectiveness while one is sitting, however.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I use a more direct approach and apply treatments to the listener and not the equipment.  Dr. Scholl's gel shoe inserts work a treat and really help reduce listening fatigue.  I cannot vouch for their effectiveness while one is sitting, however.



I might be mistaken but I think those were meant to be used on your feet, not stuffed in your ears.  But different strokes and all I guess...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 14, 2021)

Scoff if you must.   Because you've pissed me off (and for decorum's sake), I will not share my other proven listener treatments used to enhance my listening enjoyment.


----------



## JTbbb

Ripper2860 said:


> I use a more direct approach and apply treatments to the listener and not the equipment.  Dr. Scholl's gel shoe inserts work a treat and really help reduce listening fatigue.  I cannot vouch for their effectiveness while one is sitting, however.



Eat more pies, the sound deadening affects on your ass are amazing 😀.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Sam, of all people you should know that audio grade cardboard has self-damping properties that obviate the need for sorbothane or any other squishy substance that sucks the life out of the music.  So, no...although I did consider it just to make Tom happy.


I forgot that audio grade cardboard is triple wall!


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I forgot that audio grade cardboard is triple wall!


Nothing but the best for Bill, after Ripper you will get to hear an Incubus amp Sam, the sample will have a lacewood cabinet. It does not have the dampening effects that Bill's possesses but several folks think it is the prettiest yet. I just ask that you pay shipping to the next person. I may then start a second loaner cause this one might receive offers.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Nothing but the best for Bill, after Ripper you will get to hear an Incubus amp Sam, the sample will have a lacewood cabinet. It does not have the dampening effects that Bill's possesses but several folks think it is the prettiest yet. I just ask that you pay shipping to the next person. I may then start a second loaner cause this one might receive offers.



No cardboard?!?  What?  I'll offer $1 then, but only with free shipping.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Nothing but the best for Bill, after Ripper you will get to hear an Incubus amp Sam, the sample will have a lacewood cabinet. It does not have the dampening effects that Bill's possesses but several folks think it is the prettiest yet. I just ask that you pay shipping to the next person. I may then start a second loaner cause this one might receive offers.


I am honored to receive your generous offer, and look forward to some good listening.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 14, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> I am honored to receive your generous offer, and look forward to some good listening.


Do you have headphones with impedance of 50 ohms or higher? @sam6550a


----------



## cgb3

Ripper2860 said:


> I use a more direct approach and apply treatments to the listener and not the equipment.  Dr. Scholl's gel shoe inserts work a treat and really help reduce listening fatigue.  I cannot vouch for their effectiveness while one is sitting, however.


You should try Dr. Scholl's gell suppositories. Ahhhhh, Ummmm. It's what a bum requires after a tiring day.


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> I use a more direct approach and apply treatments to the listener and not the equipment.  Dr. Scholl's gel shoe inserts work a treat and really help reduce listening fatigue.  I cannot vouch for their effectiveness while one is sitting, however.


So this must be a standing joke only.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> So this must be a standing joke only.



I see what you did there.  You might have to explain it to @Ripper2860 though.


----------



## JTbbb

To my more knowledgeable friends. I received these today. Melz 1578  ‘63. The cartons looked original and each tube was wrapped in the enclosed waxed information sheet. There has been discussions here regarding what is a real 1578, and what is masquerading as real.
So, have I bought “From Russia With Love” or “Colonel Rosa Klebb”.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> To my more knowledgeable friends. I received these today. Melz 1578  ‘63. The cartons looked original and each tube was wrapped in the enclosed waxed information sheet. There has been discussions here regarding what is a real 1578, and what is masquerading as real.
> So, have I bought “From Russia With Love” or “Colonel Rosa Klebb”.



@Paladin79 is the reigning expert on these, but those look like real, honest-to-goodness 1578's.  Proper mica shapes, mica supports, and plates.  And the 1963's are @Paladin79 's favorites.....I don't have enough experience personally with true 1578's to be able to comment one way or the other on what years are best, but his word is good enough for me as he's listened to a lot of them.  Those are not the special 1958 mutant version, but if you'd found some of those @Paladin79 would probably be knocking on your front door about now.     Seriously, looks like you did very well.


----------



## Paladin79

JTbbb said:


> To my more knowledgeable friends. I received these today. Melz 1578  ‘63. The cartons looked original and each tube was wrapped in the enclosed waxed information sheet. There has been discussions here regarding what is a real 1578, and what is masquerading as real.
> So, have I bought “From Russia With Love” or “Colonel Rosa Klebb”.


Those are proper 1963 Melz and they look to be in very good condition. Hopefully you have caught the discussions about replacing the solder in the pins and I can help with that if you need it. They might work fine out of the box but you could get noise later on if not soldered properly. I had one I had to replace the solder in three times before it stopped having noise issues.

  The 58's Bill refers to should be called holy grail instead of mutants though lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those are proper 1963 Melz and they look to be in very good condition. Hopefully you have caught the discussions about replacing the solder in the pins and I can help with that if you need it. They might work fine out of the box but you could get noise later on if not soldered properly. I had one I had to replace the solder in three times before it stopped having noise issues.
> 
> The 58's Bill refers to should be called holy grail instead of mutants though lol.



OK, I can live with holy grail.  Just don't start with some adaptation of Naughty Girl.  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OK, I can live with holy grail.  Just don't start with some adaptation of Naughty Girl.  LOL!!


Hmmm now there's an idea, extremely naughty girl.   

I see you are in the UK @JTbbb, hopefully you have had some soldering experience if those start to act up.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those are proper 1963 Melz and they look to be in very good condition. Hopefully you have caught the discussions about replacing the solder in the pins and I can help with that if you need it. They might work fine out of the box but you could get noise later on if not soldered properly. I had one I had to replace the solder in three times before it stopped having noise issues.
> 
> The 58's Bill refers to should be called holy grail instead of mutants though lol.



And in contrast to "true" 1578's, check out these.  These are standard Melz 6N8S's. Note the plastic top mica supports, oval mica shape, and solid plates.  These are good sounding tubes....not nearly as good as a 1578, but still nice tubes.  More on par with a Foton -- different sound presentation, but roughly the same "caliber" if you will.  I'm rolling HARD on the floor laughing at the price on this one though -- this version can easily be found for $25 - $35 each, maybe $50 as a real stretch.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6h8c-tube-...698681?hash=item2d161f9c39:g:cdQAAOSwZdBfThPu


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> And in contrast to "true" 1578's, check out these.  These are standard Melz 6N8S's. Note the plastic top mica supports, oval mica shape, and solid plates.  These are good sounding tubes....not nearly as good as a 1578, but still nice tubes.  More on par with a Foton -- different sound presentation, but roughly the same "caliber" if you will.  I'm rolling HARD on the floor laughing at the price on this one though -- this version can easily be found for $25 - $35 each, maybe $50 as a real stretch.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6h8c-tube-...698681?hash=item2d161f9c39:g:cdQAAOSwZdBfThPu



Is this bangybang going Russian?  Bang Bang!  Blowing up prices....


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Do you have headphones with impedance of 50 ohms or higher? @sam6550a


All of my cans are 38 ohms or less.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Is this bangybang going Russian?  Bang Bang!  Blowing up prices....



LOL!  He should change his seller name to "Bratva" to keep some distinction between BangyBang, Menifee, and this new fake storefront.


----------



## JTbbb

Thank you Gents for your information. Everything felt right that they were the real deal, but it’s reassuring to get confirmation. I am aware of the need to the possibility of having to re-solder the pins, and I do have someone in mind who could possibly do it for me if they need doing. All the same though, thanks for your offer Paladin79.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> All of my cans are 38 ohms or less.


Ok I may throw some Sennheiser’s in the box, 38 might work but best to let you hear higher impedance just in case


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I may throw some Sennheiser’s in the box, 38 might work but best to let you hear higher impedance just in case


I didn't get any Sennheisers in my box..  I don't feel prwetty anymore..


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 15, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> To my more knowledgeable friends. I received these today. Melz 1578  ‘63. The cartons looked original and each tube was wrapped in the enclosed waxed information sheet. There has been discussions here regarding what is a real 1578, and what is masquerading as real.
> So, have I bought “From Russia With Love” or “Colonel Rosa Klebb”.


Congrats! True Blue! REal Deal Holyfeild, Da Genuine Specimen.. .   *Ayatollah of Rock 'n' Rolla*


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

JTbbb said:


> To my more knowledgeable friends. I received these today. Melz 1578  ‘63. The cartons looked original and each tube was wrapped in the enclosed waxed information sheet. There has been discussions here regarding what is a real 1578, and what is masquerading as real.
> So, have I bought “From Russia With Love” or “Colonel Rosa Klebb”.


They look OK, if not that ugly ink stamp. These seem to be with the black plates, not grey ones. I do not remember which ones are older or sound better (I do not want to discuss their sonic character as that annoys some of us). Any way, hereby these different types; shiny [grey] on the left, matt [black] on the right, you seem to have the matt ones.


----------



## JKDJedi

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> They look OK, if not that ugly ink stamp. These seem to be with the black plates, not grey ones. I do not remember which ones are older or sound better (I do not want to discuss their sonic character as that annoys some of us). Any way, hereby these different types; shiny [grey] on the left, matt [black] on the right, you seem to have the matt ones.


gonna have to take a closer look at mine, interesting. Same year and two shades of grey.. 🤔


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> They look OK, if not that ugly ink stamp. These seem to be with the black plates, not grey ones. I do not remember which ones are older or sound better (I do not want to discuss their sonic character as that annoys some of us). Any way, hereby these different types; shiny [grey] on the left, matt [black] on the right, you seem to have the matt ones.


None of mine had the ink stamp, I believe that is added on by some sellers, the purple one at the bottom that is. Mine were all the shiny black metal as I recall, I just have a couple left.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I didn't get any Sennheisers in my box..  I don't feel prwetty anymore..


Drat I must have forgotten to include those, I think you got mystery tubes instead. Oh and a Marconi Bill would love to own.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 15, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Drat I must have forgotten to include those, I think you got mystery tubes instead. Oh and a Marconi Bill would love to own.


😂 I have the... chosen Marconi... (in all seriousness ... didn't sound bad at all) might have to give that one another spin to see if I still feel the same about it


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Paladin79 said:


> None of mine had the ink stamp, I believe that is added on by some sellers, the purple one at the bottom that is. Mine were all the shiny black metal as I recall, I just have a couple left.


OK, re-checked the record. The Russians say the best sounding Moscow-made 6H8C are with shiny perforated anodes, made from carbonised nickel: Moscow factory (МЭЛЗ), metal base, late Fifties. 1578 is an after-manufacturing testing quality assurance stamp, to certify less than 1% difference of transconductance between the triodes, and some other characteristics. These were intented for control panels of the nuclear plants, and the earliest Soviet "computer". 1578 quality stamp was awarded to tubes of different factories and different structures, according to my information. My MELZ tubes have neither ink stamps on the base nor 1578 etching on glass, just factory stamp and date etched on glass. I have seen large quantities of these tubes with ink stamp on metal base with the date as late as October 1979, which is funny, as according to my records MELZ switched 6H8C from metal base to black carbolite base in the 1960ties.


----------



## Mr Trev

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> OK, re-checked the record. The Russians say the best sounding Moscow-made 6H8C are with shiny perforated anodes, made from carbonised nickel: Moscow factory (МЭЛЗ), metal base, late Fifties. 1578 is an after-manufacturing testing quality assurance stamp, to certify less than 1% difference of transconductance between the triodes, and some other characteristics. These were intented for control panels of the nuclear plants, and the earliest Soviet "computer". 1578 quality stamp was awarded to tubes of different factories and different structures, according to my information. My MELZ tubes have neither ink stamps on the base nor 1578 etching on glass, just factory stamp and date etched on glass. I have seen large quantities of these tubes with ink stamp on metal base with the date as late as October 1979, which is funny, as according to my records MELZ switched 6H8C from metal base to black carbolite base in the 1960ties.



I love how you put computer in quotes.
I'm gonna have to get me one of these, just for that fact they probably glow pretty.


----------



## Paladin79

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> OK, re-checked the record. The Russians say the best sounding Moscow-made 6H8C are with shiny perforated anodes, made from carbonised nickel: Moscow factory (МЭЛЗ), metal base, late Fifties. 1578 is an after-manufacturing testing quality assurance stamp, to certify less than 1% difference of transconductance between the triodes, and some other characteristics. These were intented for control panels of the nuclear plants, and the earliest Soviet "computer". 1578 quality stamp was awarded to tubes of different factories and different structures, according to my information. My MELZ tubes have neither ink stamps on the base nor 1578 etching on glass, just factory stamp and date etched on glass. I have seen large quantities of these tubes with ink stamp on metal base with the date as late as October 1979, which is funny, as according to my records MELZ switched 6H8C from metal base to black carbolite base in the 1960ties.


The solid plate Melz from 1956, and 1958 are identical except no perforation. I do have a 56 perforated but I still like the solid plate a bit better. The 63 (perforated) was the oldest I could  find in quantity, I own other perforated plates from the late sixties, seventies, and eighties. I even bought a solid plate that had a purple stamp on it but no Melz logo lol, it has the matt grey plates. Several here heard that solid plate 58 but they are an aberration, the factory probably ran out of perforated plates or these plates never had the holes stamped in them. Jedi, Ripper, and Cowen as well as FLTWS have heard the solid plate version but they were comparing it to the 63. Personally I like the 58 better than any perforated plates I have heard but as always, YMMV.  I bought them for far less than the price of $100 or more the perforated plates fetch. I do like to get others involved so I am not just posting my likes and dislikes. My local group has heard the solid plate and gave it one of the top ratings of any tube in our possession, and we have a serious amount of 6sn7 equivalents.


----------



## JKDJedi

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> OK, re-checked the record. The Russians say the best sounding Moscow-made 6H8C are with shiny perforated anodes, made from carbonised nickel: Moscow factory (МЭЛЗ), metal base, late Fifties. 1578 is an after-manufacturing testing quality assurance stamp, to certify less than 1% difference of transconductance between the triodes, and some other characteristics. These were intented for control panels of the nuclear plants, and the earliest Soviet "computer". 1578 quality stamp was awarded to tubes of different factories and different structures, according to my information. My MELZ tubes have neither ink stamps on the base nor 1578 etching on glass, just factory stamp and date etched on glass. I have seen large quantities of these tubes with ink stamp on metal base with the date as late as October 1979, which is funny, as according to my records MELZ switched 6H8C from metal base to black carbolite base in the 1960ties.


Here's a 71' with 1578 stamped on the glass .. metal base. (left tube)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I didn't get any Sennheisers in my box..  I don't feel prwetty anymore..



I got a bunch of electronic components already wired together in my cardboard box.  You really got shafted man.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I got a bunch of electronic components already wired together in my cardboard box.  You really got shafted man.


As I recall I used wire wrap on yours and actually soldered Jedi's components in place because I had thoughts of keeping that one for myself. Yours might vary a lot as the amp heats up and cools down but you do have the gift of variety.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Mr Trev said:


> I love how you put computer in quotes.
> I'm gonna have to get me one of these, just for that fact they probably glow pretty.


6000 tubes would give you some glow


----------



## Dave01236

Has anyone ever rolled mullard ecc34's ? I've read that they're the low impedance version of the famous ecc32's. I'm curious about how they compare against the 6f8g's. 

Lately it's been a hard choice for me deciding whether I should use the 6f8g's or the melz tubes in my amp. I decided to stick with the 6f8g's and I even ordered a pair of NOS 6C8G'S, with the boxes and all that good stuff. I received those beauties today. Both pairs sound identical, so the 6c8g's will be my spare pair of tubes for now in case anything happens, as well as the 10+ other melz tubes that I have


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Dave01236 said:


> Has anyone ever rolled mullard ecc34's ? I've read that they're the low impedance version of the famous ecc32's. I'm curious about how they compare against the 6f8g's.
> 
> Lately it's been a hard choice for me deciding whether I should use the 6f8g's or the melz tubes in my amp. I decided to stick with the 6f8g's and I even ordered a pair of NOS 6C8G'S, with the boxes and all that good stuff. I received those beauties today. Both pairs sound identical, so the 6c8g's will be my spare pair of tubes for now in case anything happens, as well as the 10+ other melz tubes that I have


These look like sold in India. Are they genuine? The source seems to have unlimited supply of all good tube types, which is somewhat odd, is it not?


----------



## Dave01236 (Jan 15, 2021)

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> These look like sold in India. Are they genuine? The source seems to have unlimited supply of all good tube types, which is somewhat odd, is it not?



Yes this is correct. I think they are genuine unless there are ''fake'' 6C8G's out there. They sound identical to my 6f8g's. I didn't spend much for those tubes so I'm satisfied. As for the supply of tubes, I'm not sure.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Dave01236 said:


> Yes this is correct. I think they are genuine unless there are ''fake'' 6C8G's out there. They sound identical to my 6f8g's. I didn't spend much for those tubes so I'm satisfied. As for the supply of tubes, I'm not sure.


You consider $60 per 6C8G "not much"? That is what they charge on eBay...


----------



## Dave01236

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You consider $60 per 6C8G "not much"? That is what they charge on eBay...



Why are we discussing about pricing? I said that I like those tubes and that I'm satisfied about what I got for the money I spent. In the end, the only thing that's important is if I'm satisfied about my purchase. And I am. They sound identical to my 6f8g's, and if you take a quick look on ebay for tung sol 6f8g's , you will see that some people are trying to sell them for hundreds and hundreds of dollars. Did I spend hundreds and hundreds for the 6c8g's ? No I did not. I would never do that.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

Dave01236 said:


> Why are we discussing about pricing? I said that I like those tubes and that I'm satisfied about what I got for the money I spent. In the end, the only thing that's important is if I'm satisfied about my purchase. And I am. They sound identical to my 6f8g's, and if you take a quick look on ebay for tung sol 6f8g's , you will see that some people are trying to sell them for hundreds and hundreds of dollars. Did I spend hundreds and hundreds for the 6c8g's ? No I did not. I would never do that.


I am not questioning your decision. It is your money and you spend it as you wish, of course. I just wonder about the seller and authenticity of his stock


----------



## bcowen

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> You consider $60 per 6C8G "not much"? That is what they charge on eBay...



Sheeeez ODD.  Value is relative.  You don't even want to know what I paid for my cardboard box amp.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey

bcowen said:


> Sheeeez ODD.  Value is relative.  You don't even want to know what I paid for my cardboard box amp.


Value is. Authenticity is not.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sheeeez ODD.  Value is relative.  You don't even want to know what I paid for my cardboard box amp.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> As I recall I used wire wrap on yours and actually soldered Jedi's components in place because I had thoughts of keeping that one for myself. Yours might vary a lot as the amp heats up and cools down but you do have the gift of variety.



Solder is overrated.  

Seriously though, some of the videos I've seen on YouTube are downright scary.  "Here, just touch the 2 pieces together and drop a blob of solder on them."  My Dad always taught me to think of solder as a sealant, not a glue. The electrical connection should be integral and solid and should work perfectly without soldering it.  The solder just assures it doesn't vibrate loose and seals it from oxidation or corrosion.  You can only wonder how many people watch some of those idiot YouTube's and think they know what they're doing.  So since you know that I know that you know what you're doing, I'm not worried about the wire wrap.  LOL!


----------



## Dave01236

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I am not questioning your decision. It is your money and you spend it as you wish, of course. I just wonder about the seller and authenticity of his stock



You are right on that, he could very well be hiding things. Heck, maybe I did get a bad pair. But like I said, I'm still satisfied with the tubes and they are in my collection right now in case anything bad happens. Because tubes are tubes. 

If we were talking about $500 tubes I don't think I would be ordering them from India, unless the seller was someone I could trust.


----------



## JKDJedi

Dave01236 said:


> Has anyone ever rolled mullard ecc34's ? I've read that they're the low impedance version of the famous ecc32's. I'm curious about how they compare against the 6f8g's.
> 
> Lately it's been a hard choice for me deciding whether I should use the 6f8g's or the melz tubes in my amp. I decided to stick with the 6f8g's and I even ordered a pair of NOS 6C8G'S, with the boxes and all that good stuff. I received those beauties today. Both pairs sound identical, so the 6c8g's will be my spare pair of tubes for now in case anything happens, as well as the 10+ other melz tubes that I have


Nice Grab!!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>



Even without any Sennheisers included?  Spendthrift.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Solder is overrated.
> 
> Seriously though, some of the videos I've seen on YouTube are downright scary.  "Here, just touch the 2 pieces together and drop a blob of solder on them."  My Dad always taught me to think of solder as a sealant, not a glue. The electrical connection should be integral and solid and should work perfectly without soldering it.  The solder just assures it doesn't vibrate loose and seals it from oxidation or corrosion.  You can only wonder how many people watch some of those idiot YouTube's and think they know what they're doing.  So since you know that I know that you know what you're doing, I'm not worried about the wire wrap.  LOL!


Soldering is better described as low temperature welding IMHO but not everyone considers the strength of the connection before solder is applied. Good point about electrical connection.


----------



## Old Deaf Donkey (Jan 16, 2021)

Dave01236 said:


> You are right on that, he could very well be hiding things. Heck, maybe I did get a bad pair. But like I said, I'm still satisfied with the tubes and they are in my collection right now in case anything bad happens. Because tubes are tubes.
> 
> If we were talking about $500 tubes I don't think I would be ordering them from India, unless the seller was someone I could trust.


Yeah. I took it from a wrong angle, perhaps. I wish you enjoy the tubes. I was looking at some C68G and some and C6F8 and 7193 and suddenly realized that I HAVE MORE BLOODY TUBES THAT I CAN EVER LISTEN TO! That's why I do not need more, not because they are more expensive than they used to be, or sold from India!


----------



## JTbbb

Old Deaf Donkey said:


> I HAVE MORE BLOODY TUBES THAT I CAN EVER LISTEN TO!



Yeah, I think I’m there too! Must stop looking at tubes. Must stop looking at tubes. Hopefully it’ll sink in 😀.


----------



## JTbbb

Have now had a morning with the Melz 1578, very nice tubes indeed. I only have the faintest of hum which disappears immediately music starts, so at the moment I am leaving the pins well alone.


----------



## Paladin79

JTbbb said:


> Have now had a morning with the Melz 1578, very nice tubes indeed. I only have the faintest of hum which disappears immediately music starts, so at the moment I am leaving the pins well alone.


The amp I designed has a little hum with the perforated plate 1578's, it can worsen depending on the power tubes. The solid plate of the same structure has no such noise even with a variety of power tubes. It was one of the things I hoped others would notice with their Incubus amps when I loaned the tube. I tend to experiment with my own amp so it may have more to do with my current setup. I am also listening with Focal Utopias so that could well be another factor.

As far as pin re-soldering, some folks just reflow the solder that is in the pins, this can be done by just laying the top of the of the soldering iron against the tip of each pin. I completely remove the old solder and reclean the inside of the pins and use silver content solder. Much of my collection of tubes and amps will be passed down to my son so I do not want to pass along something that once failed be it after sixty years or so.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> The amp I designed has a little hum with the perforated plate 1578's, it can worsen depending on the power tubes. The solid plate of the same structure has no such noise even with a variety of power tubes. It was one of the things I hoped others would notice with their Incubus amps when I loaned the tube. I tend to experiment with my own amp so it may have more to do with my current setup. I am also listening with Focal Utopias so that could well be another factor.
> 
> As far as pin re-soldering, some folks just reflow the solder that is in the pins, this can be done by just laying the top of the of the soldering iron against the tip of each pin. I completely remove the old solder and reclean the inside of the pins and use silver content solder. Much of my collection of tubes and amps will be passed down to my son so I do not want to pass along something that once failed be it after sixty years or so.


I'm starting to believe that Marconi is an RCA.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm starting to believe that Marconi is an RCA.



Depending on when and where it was made, it pretty much is.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 16, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Depending on when and where it was made, it pretty much is.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA


I worked for RCA for five years and was at the liquidation in 1986, later while with another company I did work with GE but nothing involving tubes. It was all solid state by then. What was once the largest color television plant in the world is now a parking lot and some medical offices have moved in. This part of Indiana once had a thriving electronics industry as well as GE and Westinghouse plants.

I am starting to make cuts on the lacewood for my loaner amp, I need to figure out the splines but I am rigging up a couple samples so I can get a better look. It does align perfectly, I was rushing to put some mineral spirits on the boards so I could get a better look at the color.

maple splines will work best but I may make an ebony sample as well.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Much of my collection of tubes and amps will be *passed down to my son* so I do not want to pass along something that once failed be it after sixty years or so.


Perhaps you should name the amps "Legacy" with a prefix for design detail, EG - "Lacewood Legacy" or for Mr. Cowen "Cardboard Legacy"!


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Perhaps you should name the amps "Legacy" with a prefix for design detail, EG - "Lacewood Legacy" or for Mr. Cowen "Cardboard Legacy"!


A fine idea, you have a way with words Lory. I did build Bill’s sideways, he has to listen with one headphone cup on his forehead and the other on the back of his head. Considering his choice of music I believe the loud thumping sounds get through.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A fine idea, you have a way with words Lory. I did build Bill’s sideways, he has to listen with one headphone cup on his forehead and the other on the back of his head. Considering his choice of music I believe the loud thumping sounds get through.



I prefer to listen via bone conduction.  That's why I need 200 watts with 115 dB sensitive HP's.  Mids and highs are so overrated anyway.


----------



## cgb3 (Jan 16, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> As far as pin re-soldering, some folks just reflow the solder that is in the pins, this can be done by just laying the top of the of the soldering iron against the tip of each pin. I completely remove the old solder and reclean the inside of the pins and use silver content solder. Much of my collection of tubes and amps will be passed down to my son so I do not want to pass along something that once failed be it after sixty years or so.


Please, educate me (or let me know where the answer lies). Where does one stop in removing old solder? Presumably, the hollow tubes extend into the vacuum?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 16, 2021)

cgb3 said:


> Please, educate me (or let me know where the answer lies). Where does one stop in removing old solder? Presumably, the hollow tubes extend into the vacuum?


no just to the base.. wires extending out of the glass tube go through the pins and extend a fraction past or just even to the tip. Not all pins are alike. Some are tapered in the tips others are more solid in metal type . Bendix are tough, real tough. Some Russian tubes aren't even true pins, there's a visalble seam along the thin metal pipes as if the metal was folded into a round pin.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> no just to the base.. wires extending out of the glass tube go through the pins and extend a fraction past or just even to the tip. Not all pins are alike. Some are tapered in the tips others are more solid in metal type . Bendix are tough, real tough. Some Russian tubes aren't even true pins, there's a visalble seam along the thin metal pipes as if the metal was folded into a round pin.


Good answer. You can remove the base and pins without affecting vacuum. What can be tricky is getting 60 year old metal clean so it will take solder properly. Extra liquid flux can really help.


----------



## bcowen

Just to clarify here, we're talking about octal base tubes.  On a 9-pin noval where the small pin(s) extend into the glass bottle, heating those with a soldering iron could cause the seal between the pin and glass to be compromised and cause a vacuum leak.  But there's also no reason to be hitting noval pins with a soldering iron...nothing to solder there.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just to clarify here, we're talking about octal base tubes.  On a 9-pin noval where the small pin(s) extend into the glass bottle, heating those with a soldering iron could cause the seal between the pin and glass to be compromised and cause a vacuum leak.  But there's also no reason to be hitting noval pins with a soldering iron...nothing to solder there.


There are also septar, decal, duodecal, and duodecar bases but yes we were talking about Russian 1578 re-soldering. I have 8 pin power tubes where the pins come straight out of the glass but those are arranged in more of a four-four pattern, not a true octal pattern. 

Many of the base numbers come from Latin, another good example is the months of the year, the Roman calendar had ten months therefore the last four come from septem, octo, novem, and decem. 7,8,9 and 10. The loktal or loctal tube base locks in so its name came about differently.

A duodecal tube base is two plus ten so 12.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There are also septar, decal, duodecal, and duodecar bases but yes we were talking about Russian 1578 re-soldering. I have 8 pin power tubes where the pins come straight out of the glass but those are arranged in more of a four-four pattern, not a true octal pattern.
> 
> Many of the base numbers come from Latin, another good example is the months of the year, the Roman calendar had ten months therefore the last four come from septem, octo, novem, and decem. 7,8,9 and 10. The loktal or loctal tube base locks in so its name came about differently.
> 
> A duodecal tube base is two plus ten so 12.



Now you're making my brain hurt.  I was feeling pretty good about counting to 9 without a calculator...

I did, however, match 33.3333333% of the lottery numbers last night. The law of averages suggest my numbers will hit sometime in the next 53,843 years so I'm being patient.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Now you're making my brain hurt.  I was feeling pretty good about counting to 9 without a calculator...
> 
> I did, however, match 33.3333333% of the lottery numbers last night. The law of averages suggest my numbers will hit sometime in the next 53,843 years so I'm being patient.


I was trying to go easy on you, I erased my explanation of duodeseptuaginta.

Are you back to buying tubes again? Did you perhaps fall off of the wagon?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was trying to go easy on you, I erased my explanation of duodeseptuaginta.
> 
> Are you back to buying tubes again? Did you perhaps fall off of the wagon?



I can't even spell that duo-whatever-thingie.    

And I *may* have been looking at a tube on Ebay and accidentally left the page open and my son inadvertently hit enter on the 'buy it now' when he picked up my laptop or something.  I didn't yell at him...I'm sure it was just an unintentional mistake. I'm not a mean Dad after all.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I can't even spell that duo-whatever-thingie.
> 
> And I *may* have been looking at a tube on Ebay and accidentally left the page open and my son inadvertently hit enter on the 'buy it now' when he picked up my laptop or something.  I didn't yell at him...I'm sure it was just an unintentional mistake. I'm not a mean Dad after all.


uh huh






I will stick with my previous assumption.  

What is the *meaning* and origin *of* '*fall off the wagon*'? When you '*fall off the wagon*', you go back to drinking alcohol in large quantities after having abstained *from* it for a while. Nowadays, the expression is used to refer to the resumption *of* any bad activity — drugs, smoking, excessive tube purchases, overeating, etc.May 20, 2013


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I can't even spell that duo-whatever-thingie.
> 
> And I *may* have been looking at a tube on Ebay and accidentally left the page open and my son inadvertently hit enter on the 'buy it now' when he picked up my laptop or something.  I didn't yell at him...I'm sure it was just an unintentional mistake. I'm not a mean Dad after all.


Was the page one where a quad matched set of four GEC 6AS7Gs were posted at, say, £5000 ?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Was the page one where a quad matched set of four GEC 6AS7Gs were posted at, say, £5000 ?



LOL!  Fortunately, no.  I might have yelled then.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> uh huh
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, that's clearly a picture of falling* out* of a wagon, not to nitpick or anything.  If falling *off *the wagon refers to resumption of any bad activity, then I'm probably guilty every day.  Maybe hourly.  Or sooner.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, that's clearly a picture of falling* out* of a wagon, not to nitpick or anything.  If falling *off *the wagon refers to resumption of any bad activity, then I'm probably guilty every day.  Maybe hourly.  Or sooner.


Finnegan helped today.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan helped today.



Finnegan looks mildly dejected that he can't find any tubes to play with...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Finnegan looks mildly dejected that he can't find any tubes to play with...


Finnegan has been known to break a tube within a minute of me opening a package if I turn my back for a couple seconds. I now have to open them in private and lock them away pretty quickly.  

I am listening to some Phil Spector produced music, yeah he died in prison a murderer but at one point in his life he was a huge influence on music, the Wall of Sound.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan has been known to break a tube within a minute of me opening a package if I turn my back for a couple seconds. I now have to open them in private and lock them away pretty quickly.



Well then you should pull some tubes out of your extensive GE stash and accomplish two things at once: 1) entertain Finnegan, and 2) save the world.  Cat owners know that the two are of equal importance.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Well then you should pull some tubes out of your extensive GE stash and accomplish two things at once: 1) entertain Finnegan, and 2) save the world.  Cat owners know that the two are of equal importance.


He likes Fotons but I guess I can introduce him to GE tubes lol.

You are forever responsible for that which you tame, but Finnegan has a ways to go to be tamed.

I am listening to 1966 songs of the year on Tidal, recordings were decent around that time frame while 67 and 68 are much revered as far as great albums. 

In my Incubus I have a 63 Melz 1578 and a bottom getter Chatham 6as7g, I can abide.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> He likes Fotons...



Smart cat!  



Paladin79 said:


> In my Incubus I have a 63 Melz 1578 and a bottom getter Chatham 6as7g, I can abide.



I have a graphite plate Chatham 6080WB and a pair of Hytron 7A4's in mine.  Not labeled "CBS/Hytron" as usual, just Hytron.  I remember getting these quite a while ago and giving them a brief listen in the Lyr 3.  OK, but nothing special.  Spied them in the stash the other day and decided to give them a try in the Incubus, and I damn...I am *really* liking them paired with the Chatham or a Tung Sol 5998.  Waiting on delivery of some good NOS Cinch sockets to make a better adapter than the Chinese one I have...the loctal sockets on it pretty much suck.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Smart cat!
> 
> 
> 
> I have a graphite plate Chatham 6080WB and a pair of Hytron 7A4's in mine.  Not labeled "CBS/Hytron" as usual, just Hytron.  I remember getting these quite a while ago and giving them a brief listen in the Lyr 3.  OK, but nothing special.  Spied them in the stash the other day and decided to give them a try in the Incubus, and I damn...I am *really* liking them paired with the Chatham or a Tung Sol 5998.  Waiting on delivery of some good NOS Cinch sockets to make a better adapter than the Chinese one I have...the loctal sockets on it pretty much suck.


Yep I bought various loktal sockets before I got some decent ones. I may have introduced you to 7A4’s, I like some of the Sylvania industrial tubes that you recommended as I recall. It is late and I spent most of the weekend on an Incubus, I always love the first listen, it never grows old.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yep I bought various loktal sockets before I got some decent ones.



I got a pair of loctal sockets made for marine applications a while back to make an adapter -- full ceramic with heavy silver plating on all the metal parts.  Probably the cat's meow for the marine use they were intended for.  But a nightmare for a tube roller 'cause once you get the tube in you feel like you're gonna bust it for sure trying to get it back out.  Visualize "death grip" and you'll get a good idea...  I have one of these Cinch sockets I'm going to use, but unfortunately only one and I need two. I like it quite a bit, and also like the NOS Amphenol sockets. I'm sure there are other very good ones out there too, but for anyone looking to buy loctal sockets stay away from the (cheap) Chinese ones because they all suck.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 18, 2021)

I just received an RFT( can be branded as Siemens or Telefunken) 6sn7 from Ukraine and am giving it a quick listen.  Right out of the box the mids and bass are quite good, it will take a while to decide on upper range. This thing is built, inside looks very rugged,  dual upper getter holders. Left and right channel separation is as good as anything I own. Listening to Art Pepper meets the Rhythm section and soundstage is very nice indeed. Dead quiet with no signal present. Piano is not as accurate I would like it, but it is early.

A $100 tube. Dimple top.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just received an RFT( can be branded as Siemens or Telefunken) 6sn7 from Ukraine and am giving it a quick listen.  Right out of the box the mids and bass are quite good, it will take a while to decide on upper range. This thing is built, inside looks very rugged,  dual upper getter holders. Left and right channel separation is as good as anything I own. Listening to Art Pepper meets the Rhythm section and soundstage is very nice indeed. Piano is not as accurate I would like it, but it is early.
> 
> A $100 tube.



Nice!!  That would be even more interesting if I hadn't stopped buying tubes.   

The tubes my son accidentally ordered have been shipped. Interesting to hear what they sound like assuming they don't blow up the Incubus.  If they suck, it's clearly my son's fault.  If they're awesome, I'll post my impressions immediately after I've cleaned out the distributor's remaining stock.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> The tubes my son accidentally ordered have been shipped. Interesting to hear what they sound like assuming they don't blow up the Incubus.  If they suck, it's clearly my son's fault.  If they're awesome, I'll post my impressions immediately after I've cleaned out the distributor's remaining stock.



S.O.P. for you.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Nice!!  That would be even more interesting if I hadn't stopped buying tubes.
> 
> The tubes my son accidentally ordered have been shipped. Interesting to hear what they sound like assuming they don't blow up the Incubus.  If they suck, it's clearly my son's fault.  If they're awesome, I'll post my impressions immediately after I've cleaned out the distributor's remaining stock.


I need to practice saying "Bill who?" in case you do blow up the Incubus.    
 Ok after only an hour the bass is even stronger.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> S.O.P. for you.



I am a strong proponent of finding value in consistency.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I need to practice saying "Bill who?" in case you do blow up the Incubus.



On the plus side, I'm pretty sure I know someone that can fix it for me.  The question is whether I can get enough on a 2nd mortgage to cover the cost.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 18, 2021)

bcowen said:


> On the plus side, I'm pretty sure I know someone that can fix it for me.  The question is whether I can get enough on a 2nd mortgage to cover the cost.


You should familiarize yourself with the old Gillette razor theory, give the razors away but make a killing on the blades. Your amp was free, at the time. 

Oh and I needed more light and a headphone stand so I just threw this together. I had the cherry base already completed. I will wire the light in a better way as time allows.


----------



## cgb3 (Jan 18, 2021)

bcowen said:


> 'cause once you get the tube in you feel like you're gonna bust it for sure trying to get it back out.  Visualize "death grip" and you'll get a good idea...



A problem I've experienced all my life. Popular opinion aside, it's not always fun being a "larger" gentlemen.


----------



## SHIMACM

Are the Tung-sol vt231 and Tung-sol bgrp different sound tubes?

I am asking why at the beginning of this topic the differentiation is made treating as if the two tubes were different.


----------



## Paladin79

My Tung Sol bgrp are VT-231's so it is a little hard to know what you are comparing. Got any photos? Mine look like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-J...633752?hash=item4b89c061d8:g:bQsAAOSw0FRf6MyK

I believe there are two versions of the round plate, different micas I believe but I only have this type right now.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My Tung Sol bgrp are VT-231's so it is a little hard to know what you are comparing. Got any photos? Mine look like this:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-J...633752?hash=item4b89c061d8:g:bQsAAOSw0FRf6MyK
> 
> I believe there are two versions of the round plate, different micas I believe but I only have this type right now.



I have seen two versions -- one like you show, and another with the black coating extending all the way to the top of the tube where you can't see the plates at all from the side. The only way to tell that version has round plates is by looking through the top at the shapes punched through the top mica.  I don't have any BGRP's of _any _version so can't comment on any sound difference (if there even is a difference).  The VT designation is not in and of itself an indicator (usually), as the same tubes could have been made on the same line at the same time, some marked with the military approval and some not.  Many Sylvanias are prime examples of this practice.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> The only way to tell that version has round plates is by looking through the top at the shapes punched through the top mica.



Sure, if you're old school.  But us that are a bit more 'hip and with it' use the latest technology.


----------



## SHIMACM

Paladin79 said:


> My Tung Sol bgrp are VT-231's so it is a little hard to know what you are comparing. Got any photos? Mine look like this:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-J...633752?hash=item4b89c061d8:g:bQsAAOSw0FRf6MyK
> 
> I believe there are two versions of the round plate, different micas I believe but I only have this type right now.



At the beginning of this topic, a distinction is made between these two tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 19, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> At the beginning of this topic, a distinction is made between these two tubes.


I have grey glass and black glass and the problem I have with the descriptions is mine match up with the first paragraph since it says they have silver labels and dark glass and say 6sn7GT on them. They also list the years made and mine are oval mica 42-46 when such tubes could be marked VT-231 as is mine, SC (signal corp) JAN.

Both are described as having keyhole plates, and mine has the oval micas. Maybe there were a couple versions of the VT-231 that Tung Sol put out?  Unfortunately the photos of the tubes are no longer there, I will have to do more research. Here is one of mine:

Two U shaped structures on mica etc.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> At the beginning of this topic, a distinction is made between these two tubes.




Yup.  And if you look at the descriptions, either could be either.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Sure, if you're old school.  But us that are a bit more 'hip and with it' use the latest technology.



Quit making things up.  _You_ know the difference because you were there when they were made.


----------



## Paladin79

After about 12 hours of burn in the RFT 6sn7 is a very respectable tube, very few weaknesses. If anything the upper end of the high frequency range may not be up there with a Melz but very close. I listened to a variety of test tracks today, maybe five hours worth and ended up rating this tube 92 out of 100. It may impress me even more later but I can see why they might fetch high prices.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6H8M-...297502?hash=item21630698de:g:HYsAAOSwFCpbt467


----------



## attmci

SHIMACM said:


> At the beginning of this topic, a distinction is made between these two tubes.


  "_keyhole-shaped black plates"?? Anyone has a picture of this kind of plates? _


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> After about 12 hours of burn in the RFT 6sn7 is a very respectable tube, very few weaknesses. If anything the upper end of the high frequency range may not be up there with a Melz but very close. I listened to a variety of test tracks today, maybe five hours worth and ended up rating this tube 92 out of 100. It may impress me even more later but I can see why they might fetch high prices.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6H8M-...297502?hash=item21630698de:g:HYsAAOSwFCpbt467



Very interesting they're using Russian designations with the 6H8C (6N8S).  Obviously made after WWII when Russia occupied East Germany.  Has nothing to do with the sound obviously, just found that of interest.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Very interesting they're using Russian designations with the 6H8C (6N8S).  Obviously made after WWII when Russia occupied East Germany.  Has nothing to do with the sound obviously, just found that of interest.


And they are marked 6sn7. I saw one seller listing them as a type of 5692 but that could by hype. They do appear to be the most internally rugged 6sn7 I have seen. Micas are right at 1/16th inch thick on most I have seen, some look thinner.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> And they are marked 6sn7. I saw one seller listing them as a type of 5692 but that could by hype. They do appear to be the most internally rugged 6sn7 I have seen. Micas are right at 1/16th inch thick on most I have seen, some look thinner.



I think there is actually no mica in that tube, looks like ceramics to me?


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I think there is actually no mica in that tube, looks like ceramics to me?


You are more correct, I just used mica since most would know the portion I was talking about. Plate supports, or insulators may be more accurate, then I saw some that looked more like mica material, only photos though.


----------



## bl4scott

Accidentally purchased these off eBay from Bulgaria. Miss read the add and it appears they won't work for me. Does anyone have a use for these?

2x 6N7S Matched Hi-Fi FOTON Tashkent 50's Military PAIR Tubes 6N7GT 6Н7С


----------



## Paladin79

I have to finish some wiring, tomorrow I will complete a loaner amp that will go to @Ripper2860 then @sam6550a and maybe a few others. This one is lacewood with rainbow poplar splines; curly maple bottom plate.


----------



## bcowen

bl4scott said:


> Accidentally purchased these off eBay from Bulgaria. Miss read the add and it appears they won't work for me. Does anyone have a use for these?
> 
> 2x 6N7S Matched Hi-Fi FOTON Tashkent 50's Military PAIR Tubes 6N7GT 6Н7С



Yeah, those aren't even pin compatible with a 6SN7.  You might check in some of the discussion threads for the Glenn OTL amp.  Sorry I don't follow those threads as I don't have a Glenn, so I don't have a link handy to give you. Not even sure the Glenn can use that tube, but it seems that amp has a huge amount of flexibility with different tubes so may be a possibility.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 23, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I have to finish some wiring, tomorrow I will complete a loaner amp that will go to @Ripper2860 then @sam6550a and @bcowen .  This one is lacewood with rainbow poplar splines; curly maple bottom plate.



Here....fixed this for you.  Always happy to help.   

PS:  That's friggin' gorgeous, Tom.  Love that wood!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 23, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Here....fixed this for you.  Always happy to help.
> 
> PS:  That's friggin' gorgeous, Tom.  Love that wood!


Are you losing interest in your cardboard amp case already?  Did you not just finish going over it with barn paint?

Here is a better look at the wood, that side of my shop has LED lighting and it gets pretty harsh.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Are you losing interest in your cardboard amp case already?  Did you not just finish going over it with barn paint?
> 
> Here is a better look at the wood, that side of my shop has LED lighting and it gets pretty harsh.



Paint?  Huh?  Why would I paint it?  I already told you I had it electroplated with unobtanium.  I'm packing it up now to send off for cryo treatment, and after that's done it'll go directly to Synergistic Research to get quantum tunneled.  Wood, schmood.  I'm going to have a cardboard case that most can only dream of.


----------



## FLTWS

That grain pattern looks reptilian. Boaconda perhaps.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> That grain pattern looks reptilian. Boaconda perhaps.


I may accept a few bids on it but I would not be unhappy keeping this one for myself after a few folks hear it. I want @LoryWiv to compare it to his Feliks audio.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> I may accept a few bids on it but I would not be unhappy keeping this one for myself after a few folks hear it. I want @LoryWiv to compare it to his Feliks audio.


Nice, all in due course, and thank you my friend. This moment I am listening to Elise with the Melz '63 6SN7's you sent my way, driving GEC KT88 powers. The latter sounded a bit warm, euphonic but lacking that last bit of detail, until I swapped in the Melz --> magic is happening. Bach's Goldberg Variations on a modern piano never sounded so ... right!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 24, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Nice, all in due course, and thank you my friend. This moment I am listening to Elise with the Melz '63 6SN7's you sent my way, driving GEC KT88 powers. The latter sounded a bit warm, euphonic but lacking that last bit of detail, until I swapped in the Melz --> magic is happening. Bach's Goldberg Variations on a modern piano never sounded so ... right!


To me, the piano is one of the toughest instruments to replicate and something I listen to intently when picking tubes or proper sound in my Incubus amps. I have other variations of the Melz tube on the way just to see what they sound like. Many of those tubes fetch $100 up but every once in a while you can luck out if you take the chance.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> That grain pattern looks reptilian.



That's just @Paladin79 's reflection in the mirror.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's just @Paladin79 's reflection in the mirror.


Ok someone just had their name crossed off the loaner amp list. LMAO


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok someone just had their name crossed off the loaner amp list. LMAO



LOL!  Well that sure sucks for whoever it was.


----------



## Paladin79

Amp is complete and I have tried a few tubes, after a bit of burn in I will go to 1958 Melz solid plate 1578 equivalent. Testing with a 53 Foton right now. On to a Tung Sol BGRP a little later.


----------



## azvargulis

Hi 6SN7 lovers! Was hoping to get feedback from some experienced folks before giving up on some of these tubes.

I've been trying to acquire a collection of nicer vintage 6SN7 tubes for my Woo WA5-LE, and am stumped by some of the better-reviewed tubes sounding not-so-hot, and the most "common" tubes I have being among the best of the bunch.

From left to right (top row), we have (1) Sylvania "Bad Boys" (non-JAN) with matched date code, (2) more Sylvania "Bad Boys" (JAN) again with matched date code, (3) very non-exclusive Sylvanias I think from the 60's, but I don't actually know, and then (bottom) (4) Sylvania 6SN7Ws.

Pair (1) sounded very good (excellent clarity and presence), but one of the tubes, despite testing well, was very unstable (I could initially coax it to life with some tapping) and died on me about a week in. I didn't _really_ get to fully evaluate, but they sounded _much _better than... Pair (2) despite looking (and supposedly testing) NOS, sound absolutely dull dull dull (poor detail, veiled, poor treble extension) - least favorite pair here. Pair (3) came with my amp, and despite being the "no big deal" tubes have the most clarity and airiness of the bunch and are my current favorite. Pair (4), which should theoretically be better than the black-base-yellow-label tubes are not as clean, a bit slower, and slightly tubby bass.

*Most burning questions:* Is it possible for one pair of "bad boy" tubes (2) to be _that_ much worse than another, theoretically better-testing pair (1)? I burned them (2) in for about 30 hours, but is it possible that they "open up" (would have to be a LOT) with even more burn in? I only have another 3-4 days in my return window. 

Other than that, just wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences, or if I may be losing my mind. I don't mind paying fair market price for good vintage tubes, but at the same time, it really sucks to be disappointed when they go into the amp. I know tubes need to burn in, but some of these would need a pretty major transformation for me to be satisfied with them, and I just haven't had any other tubes change enough on me to have such an expectation.

Chain for reference: Custom NUC server w/ Roon ROCK --> Chord DAVE --> Woo WA5-LE --> Utopia

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!


----------



## bcowen

azvargulis said:


> Hi 6SN7 lovers! Was hoping to get feedback from some experienced folks before giving up on some of these tubes.
> 
> I've been trying to acquire a collection of nicer vintage 6SN7 tubes for my Woo WA5-LE, and am stumped by some of the better-reviewed tubes sounding not-so-hot, and the most "common" tubes I have being among the best of the bunch.
> 
> ...



Just a couple comments:

1) If the first pair of Bad Boys responded favorably to 'tapping', my first thought would be that one or more of the pins has a bad solder connection.  Are you able to solder and re-do the pins on those?

2) Your description of the 2nd pair of Bad Boys sounds to me like worn out tubes.  When you state "supposedly" tested NOS, I'm assuming that's what the seller stated?  If you bought them off Ebay, there are probably more sellers that are flat-out liars (or who use vintage testers that haven't been refurbished or calibrated in 50 years) than there are honest, reliable sellers.  Not suggesting there aren't any good sellers on Ebay, just that they are greatly outnumbered by the charlatans (or ignorant ones).  I'd bet that 2nd pair is on its last leg(s).  If you have no way to test them and have a return window, I'd send them right back (myself).  More burn-in will not improve the deficits you're hearing.

3) IMO (and let me doubly state that...IMO) the short bottle 6SN7W's are_ way_ overhyped.  The tall bottle versions are much, much better.


----------



## azvargulis

bcowen said:


> Just a couple comments:
> 
> 1) If the first pair of Bad Boys responded favorably to 'tapping', my first thought would be that one or more of the pins has a bad solder connection.  Are you able to solder and re-do the pins on those?
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for this. I have never soldered tubes, and don't really have confidence in myself to do this right. The seller of that pair (the one with the tube that died completely) is super responsive and has offered to send me a replacement, as he had a few pairs on hand. 

I'll see if anyone else has other thoughts, but based on your feedback, my current plan is to send those back.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

@bcowen do you think you had worn out any of the tubes you own yourself, by the way? I could not find accurate information on how long 6SN7-like octals are supposed to last...


----------



## Deceneu808

bcowen said:


> Just a couple comments:
> 
> 1) If the first pair of Bad Boys responded favorably to 'tapping', my first thought would be that one or more of the pins has a bad solder connection.  Are you able to solder and re-do the pins on those?
> 
> ...



What is "tapping" ?


----------



## bcowen (Feb 2, 2021)

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @bcowen do you think you had worn out any of the tubes you own yourself, by the way? I could not find accurate information on how long 6SN7-like octals are supposed to last...



I've had a good number of tubes _test_ as worn out immediately after receipt from some Ebay purchases ("worn out" meaning testing below minimum GM or emission levels).   Can't say that I've ever worn out a pair of new-testing tubes from use, although I've had some that have developed noise or significant microphonics after a period of time. As far as life span on a 6SN7 (or any other tube for that matter), a lot depends on how it is run in the circuit. If it's run at conservative voltages, then a 6SN7 can probably last 5k hours, maybe more. If it's run at the upper end (or max) of its ratings, then 1k hours may be the max.  I've seen stories of Western Electric 300B tubes still going strong after 20+ years of 24/7 operation in telephone equipment, although I would imagine they were run quite conservatively in that equipment. I have 9k hours (and counting) on the KR 300BXLS output tubes in my Jota amp. While they don't test at NOS levels, they are still well above minimum.  My tester has settings for a regular 300B but it doesn't have specific settings for the higher-output XLS version (which were developed long after Hickok disappeared from the market), so I can only get an approximation on my tester. But I can't tell any sonic difference (yet) when swapping in a new pair that I have as backups, which is a more valid test.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 2, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> What is "tapping" ?



Just that -- lightly tapping the top of the tube with your fingertip.  Operative word is _lightly_.  I typically do this when testing a tube for shorts or interelement leakage just to be sure that there isn't some internal part that is loose and looks good initially, but even a slight vibration (like a tap) causes an issue to appear.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I've had a good number of tubes _test_ as worn out immediately after receipt from some Ebay purchases ("worn out" meaning testing below minimum GM or emission levels).   Can't say that I've ever worn out a pair of new-testing tubes from use, although I've had some that have developed noise or significant microphonics after a period of time. As far as life span on a 6SN7 (or any other tube for that matter), a lot depends on how it is run in the circuit. If it's run at conservative voltages, then a 6SN7 can probably last 5k hours, maybe more. If it's run at the upper end (or max) of its ratings, then 1k hours may be the max.  I've seen stories of Western Electric 300B tubes still going strong after 20+ years of 24/7 operation in telephone equipment, although I would imagine they were run quite conservatively in that equipment. I have 9k hours (and counting) on the KR 300BXLS output tubes in my Jota amp. While they don't test at NOS levels, they are still well above minimum.  My tester has settings for a regular 300B but it doesn't have specific settings for the higher-output XLS version (which were developed long after Hickok disappeared from the market), so I can only get an approximation on my tester. But I can't tell any sonic difference (yet) when swapping in a new pair that I have as backups, which is a more valid test.


I do push 6sn7's a bit but nowhere near their limits.   Most of us change tubes so often it would be nearly impossible to calculate hours of usage. Or want to calculate it.

It was boring enough waiting for a Foton to cook for 100 hours back when that was a belief.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just that -- lightly tapping the top of the tube with your fingertip.  Operative word is _lightly_.  I typically do this when testing a tube for shorts or interelement leakage just to be sure that there isn't some internal part that is loose and looks good initially, but even a slight vibration (like a tap) causes an issue to appear.


Back when I was more involved with large production electronics a small rubber ball on the end of a wooden dowel was used. An easy way to test for intermits throughout a sound or video circuit.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> Back when I was more involved with large production electronics a small rubber ball on the end of a wooden dowel was used. An easy way to test for intermits throughout a sound or video circuit.



I guess at some voltages it's better to not tap things with a finger.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

I also have managed to procure some of those Fotons @bcowen recommended so very frequently:






It sounds quite good.


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I also have managed to procure some of those Fotons @bcowen recommended so very frequently:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds quite good.


I hope you have re-soldered the pins, otherwise the sound can vary quite a bit. I might plug one in when I want more bass.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> I hope you have re-soldered the pins, otherwise the sound can vary quite a bit. I might plug one in when I want more bass.



No, I have not yet though I am aware of your recommendation from past posts.


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> No, I have not yet though I am aware of your recommendation from past posts.


Thanks, even reflowing the solder might help a bit if you bought some from the fifties.


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I also have managed to procure some of those Fotons @bcowen recommended so very frequently:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds quite good.



I want to know where you got purple ones.  All of mine are like kind of orange.


----------



## tubebuyer2020 (Feb 3, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I want to know where you got purple ones.  All of mine are like kind of orange.



Don't starve the plate and put an honest 10'000 Megavolt on it!

In reality the LED does not look like a Razor gaming PC, it's quite subtle. That was a dark room HDR smartphone shot.


----------



## mayurs

My amp is a Feliks Euforia with stock psvane gold tubes that seem quite good but now I think its time to explore some more tubes.

I have decided to pick 2 sets out of the following tubes that one guy here has for sale. However comparing these to the first page of this thread has me more confused than ever. I am not sure which Sylvania Vt-231 is this, as I read that it has a silvered base to 1/3 length of the bottle and has rectangular mica plates while these seem circular. Same confusion with Raytheon VT-231, the pictures seems a little different from the description I read on the first page.

Then there is the Ken rad VT-231. This seems to be the clear glass and not black so is it worth buying at all? Then there is the Sylvania wgt brown base which I could not find much info on.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Tom-s

Your first "Sylvania" is a Brimar; there's your "problem".  

That's sure a nice Sylvania to score!


----------



## bl4scott

Do you know if 6SN7 tubes will work in a Lyr 2 - since I am using an adapter in my Freya 2 to use the 6SN7, would I be able to use the same for the Lyr 2?  Any opinions on this older unit and would this be a good upgrade to the Freya 2. Do the inserted tubes need to be the same? Sorry for my ignorance.  

Per the manual " Lyr 2 accomodates any 6DJ8, 6922, ECC88, 6N23P, 6BZ7, and 6N1P tube types, so feel free to swap the stock tubes"


----------



## mayurs (Feb 6, 2021)

Thanks for the id of Brimar based Sylvania VT-231. I do not see any info or any thing anywhere about this tube.

Is the Ken Rad VT-231 a ribbed plate one or the staggered one and is the Raytheon VT-231 one with T-plates or flat plates?

Apologies in advance for such basic questions, but the photos on the first page of this thread which has descriptions of the various tubes do not open for me.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## whirlwind

That Ken Rad looks to have staggered plates.
Plop it in your amp and enjoy the bass...I have mine in at the moment and the fun factor is really high!


----------



## attmci

mayurs said:


> Thanks for the id of Brimar based Sylvania VT-231. I do not see any info or any thing anywhere about this tube.
> 
> Is the Ken Rad VT-231 a ribbed plate one or the staggered one and is the Raytheon VT-231 one with T-plates or flat plates?
> 
> ...


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## DeweyCH

Picked up a few nice ones - a couple of Fotons and a CBS brown base:


----------



## attmci (Feb 8, 2021)

Anyone wants a Fivre? @rosgr63
https://www.ebay.com/sch/rosgr63eb/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Anyone wants a Fivre? @rosgr63
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/rosgr63eb/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=


Been there, done that, but thanks. Quite a selection.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Been there, done that, but thanks. Quite a selection.


Those are poor man's ECC33. Very nice.


----------



## mayurs

My tube dealer has sent me pictures of a Mullard British made 6sn7gt which I cannot find any information on. Please help me with the actual make of this tube


----------



## SHIMACM

It looks like a 6n8s Foton Russo.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> It looks like a 6n8s Foton Russo.


Good call, @SHIMACM !  That's exactly what it appears to be, 1956 or later as it has the non-ribbed plates.  Below is a 1959 Foton 6N8S:


----------



## tubebuyer2020

bcowen said:


> Good call, @SHIMACM !  That's exactly what it appears to be, 1956 or later as it has the non-ribbed plates.



Late 1962 or later, since it does not have 4 bottom mica cut-outs. If the getter is a flying saucer one, then late sixties or maybe even seventies. Why do I even know this... Should have state with solid state stuff...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 23, 2021)

Well, your forum moniker kinda tipped your hand.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

I was meant to stop, but then @bcowen started praising Fotons at good prices. My willpower has a limit.


----------



## Ripper2860

Stands to reason that he would.  @bcowen had a college roommate that is now is a Russian Oligarch that dabbles in the Foton tube biz.  Well, and he's also the exclusive supplier of  Novichok to Putin.


----------



## mayurs (Feb 25, 2021)

These tubes are enroute to me for my Feliks Euforia. Can't wait to get them. Is there an easy and inexpensive way to clean the pins which seems a bit dirty to me?


----------



## whirlwind

mayurs said:


> These tubes are enroute to me for my Feliks Euforia. Can't wait to get them. Is there an easy and inexpensive way to clean the pins which seems a bit dirty to me?


Fine grit sand paper or dremel


----------



## tubebuyer2020

mayurs said:


> These tubes are enroute to me for my Feliks Euforia. Can't wait to get them. Is there an easy and inexpensive way to clean the pins which seems a bit dirty to me?


Dirty pins may easily result in noise. Maybe a deoxit pen could help. They are not exactly cheap, but cheaper than any of those tubes I presume.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 25, 2021)

Tape Head cleaner is much cheaper and cleans quite well w/o leaving a residue.  I've been using the below and it works fabulously.  You won't believe the gunk it removes from seemingly clean pins.

https://amazon.com/gp/product/B005DNQZX0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## synfinatic

Ripper2860 said:


> Tape Head cleaner is much cheaper and cleans quite well w/o leaving a residue.  I've been using the below and it works fabulously.  You won't believe the gunk it removes from seemingly clean pins.
> 
> https://amazon.com/gp/product/B005DNQZX0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Isn't that just basically isopropyl alcohol?   https://www.cvs.com/shop/cvs-health-91-isopropyl-alcohol-32-oz-prodid-1011920


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 25, 2021)

A bit more than just alcohol.  It is safe for rubber pinch rollers, etc on tape machines, etc., where-as Isopropyl alcohol can dry those out.  I've used iso alcohol and it does not clean as effectively as this does.  Also contains isohexane and n-hexane which seems to improve ability to dissolve tube pin crud.


----------



## steffinger92 (Feb 25, 2021)

Does anyone know a bit more about this tube? I got it quite cheap from eBay couple of years ago and I've been very happy with it in my Schiit Lyr3 ever since 



 

 



According to the seller's information it's a US made tube (obviously) from the 50s or 60s made to German military specifications...? At least that's what I make of the "BWB 933" logo on the side of the tube. Accoring to what I found online it stands for "Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung" which basically means the German army's supply chain dept.

I can't say much about the sound other than I absolutely love it. I've been using only this tube for the past two years and can currently only compare it to the Russian 6N8S my Lyr3 came with.

Just bought a Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT VT-231 and some cheap Soviet 6H8C / 6N8S from Ukraine. Quite excited to hear how they sound


----------



## LoryWiv

mayurs said:


> These tubes are enroute to me for my Feliks Euforia. Can't wait to get them. Is there an easy and inexpensive way to clean the pins which seems a bit dirty to me?


I've tried a few techniques but from others in this thread's suggestions now using a pipe cleaner with a bit of deoxit on it. Excellent results.


----------



## whirlwind

steffinger92 said:


> Does anyone know a bit more about this tube? I got it quite cheap from eBay couple of years ago and I've been very happy with it in my Schiit Lyr3 ever since
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those old Sylvania military tubes are very nice...especially if you can find them for a nice price.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> A bit more than just alcohol.  It is safe for rubber pinch rollers, etc on tape machines, etc., where-as Isopropyl alcohol can dry those out.  I've used iso alcohol and it does not clean as effectively as this does.  Also contains isohexane and n-hexane which seems to improve ability to dissolve tube pin crud.


How does it taste?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 25, 2021)

Horrible. Like pork BBQ.


----------



## steffinger92

whirlwind said:


> Those old Sylvania military tubes are very nice...especially if you can find them for a nice price.


So is this a re-branded Sylvania tube? The print says RCA but from reading in this thread I've learned that re-branding tubes as manufacturer A when in fact manufacturer B had made them was not uncommon back then?


----------



## whirlwind

steffinger92 said:


> So is this a re-branded Sylvania tube? The print says RCA but from reading in this thread I've learned that re-branding tubes as manufacturer A when in fact manufacturer B had made them was not uncommon back then?



I was referring to the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT VT-231 that you bought.


----------



## steffinger92

whirlwind said:


> I was referring to the Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT VT-231 that you bought.


Ah, got you. It hasn't arrived yet, but I'll post my impressions once I have it here.


----------



## thehutch (Feb 27, 2021)

In original post, Robert H says this of the 1952 “three hole” Syl 67N7GT: “later in '52 the tube changed to a shorter bottle with round serrated micas - an ordinary, dry sounding tube - but it does have a 1952 date code and many sellers try to pass it off as the good ones.”

anyone know what week this change over happened? Or rough idea?


----------



## jonathan c

Tube rolling companions to RCA 5692 in Woo WA6...🤔...😀


----------



## WildPhydeaux

Is it just me or is something off about these "bad boy" tubes?

Cheers,
Robert


----------



## Mr Trev

Looks hand painted to me. I wouldn't touch em.


----------



## WildPhydeaux

That was my observation as well. I see a lot of "iffy" postings for tubes but, wow, it takes some nerve to post that. 

Cheers, 
Robert


----------



## thehutch

WildPhydeaux said:


> Is it just me or is something off about these "bad boy" tubes?
> 
> Cheers,
> Robert


Look fake


----------



## Yoram Diamand

hi, I was exporing the 6sn7 tube market a bit, when I saw the Woo WA5 upgrade tube 5692 CBS Tube (New Old Stock In Pair)
$699.00. That is not cheap. I bought the LINLAI Elite 6sn7 for 194 euro Aliexpress, which did not have the special NOS price for a good tube. I had hoped for ACME 6sn7, but it is not there. As the droplet shape of the Linlai perhaps is too wide, too big for the narrow Feliks Audio Euforia, perhaps I'll have to lift one up, with 2 socket savers. ACME and Linlai Elite compete.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 1, 2021)

Did these come from the set of the low-budget horror “Blair Witch Project”?...


----------



## WildPhydeaux

I'm of two minds with these pictures. The first is that, wow, what kind of nerve to post these when it seems crystal clear that they must be fake. But to be honest I'm no expert and the tubes may well be the real 1952 "bad boy" tubes that someone has "touched up" the paint for reasons of vanity. There are more pictures that the two I grabbed and posted here and the amazing thing to me is they are all nice close-ups - I didn't blow them up to post here, this came directly from the listing. Maybe the guy just has no clue how bad these make him look. Or maybe early "bad boy" tubes all had their labels painted on by little old ladies dipping the corner of their handkerchief into green paint and I should be gobbling these up at $150...  Not.

Cheers,
Robert


----------



## jonathan c

WildPhydeaux said:


> I'm of two minds with these pictures. The first is that, wow, what kind of nerve to post these when it seems crystal clear that they must be fake. But to be honest I'm no expert and the tubes may well be the real 1952 "bad boy" tubes that someone has "touched up" the paint for reasons of vanity. There are more pictures that the two I grabbed and posted here and the amazing thing to me is they are all nice close-ups - I didn't blow them up to post here, this came directly from the listing. Maybe the guy just has no clue how bad these make him look. Or maybe early "bad boy" tubes all had their labels painted on by little old ladies dipping the corner of their handkerchief into green paint and I should be gobbling these up at $150...  Not.
> 
> Cheers,
> Robert


If the seller is legitimate / reasonably knowledgeable about tubes, the seller would recognise that a tube could be sold “as is” with the proper disclosure. A reputable seller could / would also provide with a tube relevant measurements taken on a recognised testing device that was reasonably maintained. The “Alice Cooper” appearance of those tubes suggests that the seller: (i) knows what he does not have since the real item does not need cosmetics; (ii) does not have the ability, equipment, inclination, or wherewithal to properly test and present tubes.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

I will be a contrarian. Here is a "Bad Boy" with a crappy label from a known seller Lowtechelec:





https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/951...e?ga_search_query=boy&ref=shop_items_search_8


----------



## Mr Trev

Huh…
Maybe Sylvania used child labour to paint the logos on their tubes?


----------



## DenverW

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I will be a contrarian. Here is a "Bad Boy" with a crappy label from a known seller Lowtechelec:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/951...e?ga_search_query=boy&ref=shop_items_search_8



To be even more contrarian, if we are taking the strict version of bad boy, that isn’t one.  That would be a “chrome dome.”  Or you might be saying just that in your post?  I’m at work and confused!


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Mr Trev said:


> Huh…
> Maybe Sylvania used child labour to paint the logos on their tubes?



I would assume someone messed up the screen printing process in some fashion, maybe bad paint mix?



DenverW said:


> To be even more contrarian, if we are taking the strict version of bad boy, that isn’t one.  That would be a “chrome dome.”  Or you might be saying just that in your post?  I’m at work and confused!



Sorry, I don't know the exact definition of bad boys, but yes I notice seller says "...chrome dome, Bad Boy-style...". A bit sneaky, based on what you are saying  - not a direct lie but would catch a noob like me!


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I would assume someone messed up the screen printing process in some fashion, maybe bad paint mix?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I don't know the exact definition of bad boys, but yes I notice seller says "...chrome dome, Bad Boy-style...". A bit sneaky, based on what you are saying  - not a direct lie but would catch a noob like me!



I think it gets more and more hilarious as time marches on.  These days, it seems any tube with an octal base that was (possibly) made by Sylvania is a Bad Boy.  Just put "Sylvania Bad Boy" in the search text and as of a few minutes ago, there are 35 listings. Maybe (*maybe*) a half dozen of them are true Bad Boys.  And being a 6SN7 isn't even required any longer....we now have 12SN7 Bad Boys, 6S*L*7 Bad Boys, and I would venture to guess within the next year or so we'll start having Bad Boys that were made in Russia. 

And I don't find the _real _Bad Boys to be any kind of holy grail....or even an exceptional tube for that matter. They are quite nice to be sure, but a $50 tube at most.  My opinion, of course.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I think it gets more and more hilarious as time marches on.  These days, it seems any tube with an octal base that was (possibly) made by Sylvania is a Bad Boy.  Just put "Sylvania Bad Boy" in the search text and as of a few minutes ago, there are 35 listings. Maybe (*maybe*) a half dozen of them are true Bad Boys.  And being a 6SN7 isn't even required any longer....we now have 12SN7 Bad Boys, 6S*L*7 Bad Boys, and I would venture to guess within the next year or so we'll start having Bad Boys that were made in Russia.
> 
> And I don't find the _real _Bad Boys to be any kind of holy grail....or even an exceptional tube for that matter. They are quite nice to be sure, but a $50 tube at most.  My opinion, of course.


You know that the spiel is out of hand should it pitch “GE bad boys”...


----------



## DenverW

I have a bad boy for sale.  Rebranded rca and with one of kind redisigned internals.  They were specially made to match the rca tube.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> You know that the spiel is out of hand should it pitch “GE bad boys”...


LOL!  Yes, those would be more properly labeled as just "GE Bad."


----------



## attmci (Mar 1, 2021)

WildPhydeaux said:


> That was my observation as well. I see a lot of "iffy" postings for tubes but, wow, it takes some nerve to post that.
> 
> Cheers,
> Robert


Rob, trust us and you will get a lot of likes.

The best affordable tube is a 7N7 followed by those from the Russian mafia. Forget about the ECC31, 32, 33,34,35, 36, 37, 38,39  junkies. LOL.


----------



## Slade01

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-TALL-...090296?hash=item2b000793b8:g:XF0AAOSweFlgOSoL

Anyone here ever see/try tubes like this one...a tall bottle with side mouse ears?  This is the only 2nd one i've seen of this kind.  I'm just curious...


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-TALL-...090296?hash=item2b000793b8:g:XF0AAOSweFlgOSoL
> 
> Anyone here ever see/try tubes like this one...a tall bottle with side mouse ears?  This is the only 2nd one i've seen of this kind.  I'm just curious...



I've never seen one like that.  Interesting.  It'd have to sound better than a (normal) Mouse Ear to be worth $125 though (IMO).


----------



## mayurs

My raytheon Vt-231 sound fabulous but has a slight hum on my Euforia. Is there a way to get rid of it?


----------



## Marutks

mayurs said:


> My raytheon Vt-231 sound fabulous but has a slight hum on my Euforia. Is there a way to get rid of it?



Is there no hum if you use other tubes?   Can you recommend some quiet 6SN7 tubes?


----------



## JTbbb

Marutks said:


> Is there no hum if you use other tubes?   Can you recommend some quiet 6SN7 tubes?



The RCA red base 5692’s have a reputation for being silent. Mine certainly are, and sound good too.


----------



## scottshields

JTbbb said:


> The RCA red base 5692’s have a reputation for being silent. Mine certainly are, and sound good too.


+1 on the 5692's.  I have these from Upscale Audio and they are whisper quite (and sound great).  I've also noticed a very slight hum if the volume knob is at zero but if turned up just a little (with no music) the hum disappears with these.

I just took delivery today of Sylvania 6SN7GTA chrome domes from Brent Jessie who's a great tube source BTW.  They seem to have a very slight hum.  Way to early to fully judge them but I have high hopes for them.  They were also only $90 for the pair.


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, my Brimar 6sn7 tube has a time that has noise, or even a channel fails, but when I tap it a little, it goes back to normal and plays normally without any noise. What can this be?


----------



## JTbbb

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, my Brimar 6sn7 tube has a time that has noise, or even a channel fails, but when I tap it a little, it goes back to normal and plays normally without any noise. What can this be?



I think the advice will be to re-solder the pins. To start with anyways.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, my Brimar 6sn7 tube has a time that has noise, or even a channel fails, but when I tap it a little, it goes back to normal and plays normally without any noise. What can this be?


What @JTbbb said.


----------



## mayurs

JTbbb said:


> I think the advice will be to re-solder the pins. To start with anyways.


How does one go about doing this? Sorry if its noob question as I have never soldered before.


----------



## SHIMACM

JTbbb said:


> I think the advice will be to re-solder the pins. To start with anyways.



Besides the pins, is there a possibility of some other problem?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 12, 2021)

+1 on reflowing solder or re-soldering. 

I've also resolved intermittent noise issues by taking a tube and either thumping the top of the tube a few times or even taking the tube in my hand and tapping it on a desk surface while holding the tube upside down.  Sometime these noise issues are the result of debris collecting on the plates and a reasonably vigorous yet cautious few taps will cause the debris to loosen and fall.


----------



## Marutks (Mar 12, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> The RCA red base 5692’s have a reputation for being silent. Mine certainly are, and sound good too.



I have got CBS HYTRON 5692 tube.   It has yellowish-brown base.







Is RCA red base tube better than this tube?


----------



## bcowen (Mar 12, 2021)

Marutks said:


> I have got CBS HYTRON 5692 tube.   It has yellowish-brown base.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We were just discussing these in another thread.  It's unclear who the manufacturers of these tubes were, but according to Upscale Audio (which is by no means definitive, but usually has reliable information) they were made by RCA, GE, and CBS/Hytron.  I just happen to have one of each here that are paying a visit from a fellow HeadFi'er, and as best I can tell these 3 tubes are totally identical inside.  Same support rods, same plate design (and even color), same large rectangular getter, and although the coloration of the micas varies between them, they are all true mica material and all shaped exactly the same with identical support rod collars and cutout design.  If these were not all made in the same factory, and if those 3 companies were truly the only ones involved, they were _extremely_ adept at copying each other down to the finest detail. 

So does the RCA sound better?  I'd be surprised if it sounded much different at all, honestly.  But I'll leave the sonic comparison to the owner of the tubes once I send them back.    Fortunately they all test very close to each other in GM, so any differences (if there are any) won't be due to different output levels.

https://upscaleaudio.com/products/cbs-hytron-5692


----------



## attmci

Someone please buy these very very rare nice 6sn7w before I pull the trigger.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265084923780?ul_noapp=true


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 12, 2021)

WTH!!??  Did they rub off the GT from WGT??   

I have never, ever seen a brown base W.  WGT?  Sure. W?  Nope.  I'd ask for a shot of the top of the tube and look for W's are just to make sure.


----------



## attmci (Mar 12, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> WTH!!??  Did they rub off the GT from WGT??
> 
> I have never, ever seen a brown base W.  WGT?  Sure. W?  Nope.  Of course, I've never seen every tube ever made, either.


Time to learn how to remove the G T. LOL.

Look at the photo at the end of the listing. The have 18 ppl in the store.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 12, 2021)

W's typically have a copper center support rod between the plates. They also have W on the top of the tube. (See pic)

I have several short bottle and tall bottle black base W's and mine all have them.  Not present on the ones listed and no image of the top view for the listed.  

Ex:


----------



## Smallpie

bcowen said:


> We were just discussing these in another thread.  It's unclear who the manufacturers of these tubes were, but according to Upscale Audio (which is by no means definitive, but usually has reliable information) they were made by RCA, GE, and CBS/Hytron.  I just happen to have one of each here that are paying a visit from a fellow HeadFi'er, and as best I can tell these 3 tubes are totally identical inside.  Same support rods, same plate design (and even color), same large rectangular getter, and although the coloration of the micas varies between them, they are all true mica material and all shaped exactly the same with identical support rod collars and cutout design.  If these were not all made in the same factory, and if those 3 companies were truly the only ones involved, they were _extremely_ adept at copying each other down to the finest detail.
> 
> So does the RCA sound better?  I'd be surprised if it sounded much different at all, honestly.  But I'll leave the sonic comparison to the owner of the tubes once I send them back.    Fortunately they all test very close to each other in GM, so any differences (if there are any) won't be due to different output levels.
> 
> https://upscaleaudio.com/products/cbs-hytron-5692


Are the 5692’s a lot different from the 5691’s in sound quality?


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> We were just discussing these in another thread.  It's unclear who the manufacturers of these tubes were, but according to Upscale Audio (which is by no means definitive, but usually has reliable information) they were made by RCA, GE, and CBS/Hytron.  I just happen to have one of each here that are paying a visit from a fellow HeadFi'er, and as best I can tell these 3 tubes are totally identical inside.  Same support rods, same plate design (and even color), same large rectangular getter, and although the coloration of the micas varies between them, they are all true mica material and all shaped exactly the same with identical support rod collars and cutout design.  If these were not all made in the same factory, and if those 3 companies were truly the only ones involved, they were _extremely_ adept at copying each other down to the finest detail.
> 
> So does the RCA sound better?  I'd be surprised if it sounded much different at all, honestly.  But I'll leave the sonic comparison to the owner of the tubes once I send them back.    Fortunately they all test very close to each other in GM, so any differences (if there are any) won't be due to different output levels.
> 
> https://upscaleaudio.com/products/cbs-hytron-5692




I'd add to the group Sylvania 5692, also very similar appearance.


----------



## cddc

Akiravelvet said:


> Are the 5692’s a lot different from the 5691’s in sound quality?




5691 is akin to 6SL7, quite different specs than 5692/6SN7, so can't say how they sound.


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Someone please buy these very very rare nice 6sn7w before I pull the trigger.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/265084923780?ul_noapp=true




Has Bangybang / Menifee / wege_high_tubes moved to Florida and formed a company? 

Clearly they just wiped off "GT" or "GTA" from these "WGT"/"WGTA" tubes, and call them "W".


----------



## bcowen (Mar 12, 2021)

cddc said:


> Has Bangybang / Menifee / wege_high_tubes moved to Florida and formed a company?
> 
> Clearly they just wiped off "GT" or "GTA" from these "WGT"/"WGTA" tubes, and call them "W".


LOL!

I'll not purchase a tube from _any_ seller that throws "Bad Boy" into the title (unless it's a true Bad Boy).  I fully realize Bad Boy is only a nickname someone coined a while back, but it's also supposed to be descriptive of particular construction details and year(s) of manufacture.  Seems like 90% of Ebay sellers just have to toss Bad Boy in the listing somewhere, and to me it's simply deceptive (or totally ignorant) marketing.  I don't even think a true Bad Boy is all that spectacular a tube...I just get irked with the constant misuse and attempted deception.

(stepladder has been moved back into place, so I'll get off my soapbox now )


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> W's typically have a copper center support rod between the plates. They also have W on the top of the tube. (See pic)
> 
> I have several short bottle and tall bottle black base W's and mine all have them.  Not present on the ones listed and no image of the top view for the listed.
> 
> Ex:


Yours appears to be counterfeit. Sorry for your loss!


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> Has Bangybang / Menifee / wege_high_tubes moved to Florida and formed a company?
> 
> Clearly they just wiped off "GT" or "GTA" from these "WGT"/"WGTA" tubes, and call them "W".


Nope.

They called themselves a team of cddcs.


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> 5691 is akin to 6SL7, quite different specs than 5692/6SN7, so can't say how they sound.


They sound very very loud.


----------



## Ripper2860

attmci said:


> Yours appears to be counterfeit. Sorry for your loss!


Those pics are not of mine. 

And I prefer the term HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE over COUNTERFEIT.  😜


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> W's typically have a copper center support rod between the plates. They also have W on the top of the tube. (See pic)
> 
> I have several short bottle and tall bottle black base W's and mine all have them.  Not present on the ones listed and no image of the top view for the listed.
> 
> Ex:


Have one up for adoption ,


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Have one up for adoption ,


Please post this in the Adopt-A-Tube thread where it belongs.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Those pics are not of mine.
> 
> And I prefer the term HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE over COUNTERFEIT.  😜


Who needs _another_ pair of Sylvanias when you can grab this beautiful pair of Bendix 6SN7GTA's instead?  Lovingly made by GE, and probably(?) worth an offer of $5 for the pair.  Maybe $6 if you're feeling spendy.    

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN...b&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Who needs _another_ pair of Sylvanias when you can grab this beautiful pair of Bendix 6SN7GTA's instead?  Lovingly made by GE, and probably(?) worth an offer of $5 for the pair.  Maybe $6 if you're feeling spendy.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/BENDIX-6SN7GTA-CHROME-SIDED-HALO-RARE-1954-SHORT-BASE-PERFECTLY-MATCHED-SET/203266847214?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20201210111314&meid=1795d384c0fa4357a5f0c1864f8622bb&pid=101195&rk=2&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=303911861480&itm=203266847214&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb&brand=Bendix&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851




Why are you guys so picky on Menifee / BangyBang? He has switched his account to "FallAngelFall". 

This is just normal pricing from him, and it brings us a lot of fun/laughter....LOL

I own a Bendix 6SN7 that looks exactly as the ones in the pic, though I have to say this is the worst Bendix I've ever heard.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Why are you guys so picky on Menifee / BangyBang? He has switched his account to "FallAngelFall".
> 
> This is just normal pricing from him, and it brings us a lot of fun/laughter....LOL
> 
> I own a Bendix 6SN7 that looks exactly as the ones in the pic, though I have to say this is the worst Bendix I've ever heard.


If it's exactly like the ones in this listing it was made by GE....etched dots, 188 EIA code and all.  No wonder it sounds bad.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 13, 2021)

cddc said:


> Why are you guys so picky on Menifee / BangyBang? He has switched his account to "FallAngelFall".
> 
> This is just normal pricing from him, and it brings us a lot of fun/laughter....LOL
> 
> I own a Bendix 6SN7 that looks exactly as the ones in the pic, though I have to say this is the worst Bendix I've ever heard.


This "fallangelfall" seller is pretty hilarious.  I've looked through 10 of his current listings for Sylvanias, Raytheons, Philips, GE's etc. and every tube he has for sale measures _exactly_ the same at 200 microamps.  Who'd have thought that both triodes in all of these 6SN7's of different manufacturers and manufacturing dates would measure exactly the same?  He's charmed, I tell 'ya, _charmed_!


----------



## cddc (Mar 13, 2021)

LOL...nice discovery 

Sneaky or made-up tube measurements, 4-20 x overpriced, counterfeit tubes, these are all typical features of BangyBang / Menifee / wege_high_tubes.

This "*FallAngelFall*" is no different, so very likely an account of BangyBang / Menifee, note that he's located in California as well, same as BangyBang / Menifee.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> LOL...nice discovery
> 
> Sneaky or made-up tube measurements, 4-20 x overpriced, counterfeit tubes, these are all typical features of BangyBang / Menifee / wege_high_tubes.
> 
> This "*FallAngelFall*" is no different, so very likely an account of BangyBang / Menifee, note that he's located in California as well, same as BangyBang / Menifee.


He's hitting all areas with each alias focusing on a different thing:

Counterfeit tubes:  BangyBang's Tube's Are's Guaranteed's To's Work's Excellent's In's Your's Gear's.
Sneaky or Made-up Measurements: Menifee Audio (for the legit tubes that BangyBang hasn't re-silkscreened)
4-20x overpriced: This_Guy_Is_High_Tubes

Appears all he's missing is an outlet for totally worn out tubes and/or those with dead shorts.  Perhaps that's in the future plan for fallangelfall??


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Appears all he's missing is an outlet for totally worn out tubes and/or those with dead shorts.  Perhaps that's in the future plan for fallangelfall??


Makes sense.  Fallangelfall to sell the fallen angels of tubes (below minimum ones crashing to earth near dead).  Nice! Bang bang! He strikes again.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Please post this in the Adopt-A-Tube thread where it belongs.


Might just keep this underrated little guy..  #nowplaying


----------



## HTSkywalker

🧐🧐🧐🧐 And the best 6SN7 tube prize goes to...........................


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 30, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> 🧐🧐🧐🧐 And the best 6SN7 tube prize goes to...........................


1.   CBS/Hytron 5692 (brown base)
2.   Melz 6N8S / 1578 (metal base)
3.   RCA 5692 (red base)


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> 🧐🧐🧐🧐 And the best 6SN7 tube prize goes to...........................


Or most popular... Best is subjective.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> 🧐🧐🧐🧐 And the best 6SN7 tube prize goes to...........................


For me ‘best’ = “favourite’...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> 1.   CBS/Hytron 5692 (brown base)
> 2.   Melz 6N8S / 1578 (metal base)
> 3.   RCA 5692 (red base)


This one :
https://www.amazon.com/5692-HYTRON-Audio-Tube-278001/dp/B07TRMWWFN
The Melz is selling for $70 and the RCA for $200
CBS goes first ? although I loved the Melz sound signature


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Or most popular... Best is subjective.


When tested by the @Paladin79  Project it becomes best I believe given the many listeners involved


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 30, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> This one :
> https://www.amazon.com/5692-HYTRON-Audio-Tube-278001/dp/B07TRMWWFN
> The Melz is selling for $70 and the RCA for $200
> CBS goes first ? although I loved the Melz sound signature


Again, for me ‘best’ = ‘favourite’. [ How many Head-Fi thread posts have the disclaimer ‘ymmv’? ]


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Again, for me ‘best’ = ‘favourite’


Agree


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> When tested by the @Paladin79  Project it becomes best I believe given the many listeners involved


But they're going for accuracy...some listen for fun


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> But they're going for accuracy...some listen for fun


Which is your favorite ?


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 30, 2021)

Anyone tested the Psvane CV181-T Mark II or the Shuguang Treasure on the DV
​


----------



## JKDJedi

JKDJedi said:


> But they're going for accuracy...some listen for f





HTSkywalker said:


> Which is your favorite ?


Oh man.. so many.. depends on my mood. Those two spots at the top are nice. And belong there. I'd put the 63' Melz a touch above the CBS 5692. (Maybe more than a touch) I did the blind test with a few tubes and almost picked the mouse ears over the CBS..but the CBS came out on top. No Melz were in that mix. And it was not 50 tubes!


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> Anyone tested the Psvane CV181-T Mark II or the Shuguang Treasure on the DV
> ​


They're good, sold my copy though. Really fast tube. Might grab a mark ii but am more curious about the Sophia


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> They're good, sold my copy though. Really fast tube. Might grab a mark ii but am more curious about the Sophia


Heard they are SS sounding due to their speed, no idea about the Sophia but definitely curious about the 63 Melz if I can spot one.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> 🧐🧐🧐🧐 And the best 6SN7 tube prize goes to...........................


....the same person that's getting the best car prize.


----------



## scottshields

JKDJedi said:


> Oh man.. so many.. depends on my mood. Those two spots at the top are nice. And belong there. I'd put the 63' Melz a touch above the CBS 5692. (Maybe more than a touch) I did the blind test with a few tubes and almost picked the mouse ears over the CBS..but the CBS came out on top. No Melz were in that mix. And it was not 50 tubes!


Good to see the CBS 5692 getting some love.  I've not tried a extensive set of NOS 6SN7's (no Ken Rad's) but I've tried the newer PSVanes and some Sylvania Chrome Domes and the 5692 are the best I've heard.  In my Feliks Euforia they are dead silent, no hum at all and the soundstage and imaging are just amazing!


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 30, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> When tested by the @Paladin79  Project it becomes best I believe given the many listeners involved.


The tubes will be the favorites of a group, and I was taught long ago even subjective things can be quantified.   I doubt seriously I would post results, then individuals would want to argue what their favorite is, or why were the tests not conducted this way or that lol. Also no one wants to find out a tube they know and love may not have made the cut or did not finish toward the top. It is best to let individuals make up their own minds and be happy with what they have. Many of these tubes are hard to find or cost much more than most folks want to spend.


----------



## Bonddam

Will Psvane cv181 t blow up my Crack? After reading the first post I would believe this a yes. In its place bought ken rad 6sn7gt as alternative.


----------



## JKDJedi

Bonddam said:


> Will Psvane cv181 t blow up my Crack? After reading the first post I would believe this a yes. In its place bought ken rad 6sn7gt as alternative.


The first post was referring to the Mullard 181... Not the same as Psvanes


----------



## Bonddam

JKDJedi said:


> The first post was referring to the Mullard 181... Not the same as Psvanes


Okay


----------



## Bonddam

JKDJedi said:


> The first post was referring to the Mullard 181... Not the same as Psvanes


Are you a Jeet Kune Do Jedi?


----------



## JKDJedi

Bonddam said:


> Are you a Jeet Kune Do Jedi?


Yes sir..


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> The tubes will be the favorites of a group, and I was taught long ago even subjective things can be quantified.   I doubt seriously I would post results, then individuals would want to argue what their favorite is, or why were the tests not conducted this way or that lol. Also no one wants to find out a tube they know and love may not have made the cut or did not finish toward the top. It is best to let individuals make up their own minds and be happy with what they have. Many of these tubes are hard to find or cost much more than most folks want to spend.


Yup...I'd be very upset to know my Fotons are not the best for violins... 🤣


----------



## Bonddam

I was a jkd in both oakland and dan's. Liked Dan's method better went Princeton martial art academy


----------



## JKDJedi

Bonddam said:


> I was a jkd in both oakland and dan's. Liked Dan's method better went Princeton martial art academy


Small world.. apprentice for couple years in the valley before training heavily with Dans advanced students. Marc Denny one of them.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Small world.. apprentice for couple years in the valley before training heavily with Dans advanced students. Marc Denny one of them.


And here all along I thought your moniker was a reference to Yoda.  Guess I looked at the wrong family photo.


----------



## Bonddam

I'd be watching the Warrior 2nd season if it wasn't for all this tube stuff.


----------



## stasprof

I went for blue glass Sophia Electric 6sn7 as a driver in my 6C33-B SET amp. The amp now punches better than my class D used to!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> And here all along I thought your moniker was a reference to Yoda.  Guess I looked at the wrong family photo.


Hah!


----------



## Odin412

jonathan c said:


> For me ‘best’ = “favourite’...



In that case it's the Psvane CV181-T Mark II in my case. (Yes, a new-production tube from China - heresy!)


----------



## Slade01

Odin412 said:


> In that case it's the Psvane CV181-T Mark II in my case. (Yes, a new-production tube from China - heresy!)



Not heresy!  Psvane is pretty solid as far as new-production tubes go.  I'd take them any day over the new sensor stuff.


----------



## Odin412

Slade01 said:


> Not heresy!  Psvane is pretty solid as far as new-production tubes go.  I'd take them any day over the new sensor stuff.



Agreed. I bought a Psvane replica of the WE 274B rectifier tube for my Woo Audio WA6. Good stuff.


----------



## Slade01

Odin412 said:


> Agreed. I bought a Psvane replica of the WE 274B rectifier tube for my Woo Audio WA6. Good stuff.



Nice.  I wish Psvane would make a power tube equivalent (6AS7), I don't think they ever did though.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Small world.. apprentice for couple years in the valley before training heavily with Dans advanced students. Marc Denny one of them.



That's why you sir, are a badass!


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> ....the same person that's getting the best car prize.


Yeah definitely not anyone I know with crappy luck lol (me included)


----------



## LoryWiv

Bonddam said:


> Will Psvane cv181 t blow up my Crack? After reading the first post I would believe this a yes. In its place bought ken rad 6sn7gt as alternative.


The vintage CV181's had heater current of 0.9 I believe, new production PSVane CV181 are 0.6 like 6SN7.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The tubes will be the favorites of a group, and I was taught long ago even subjective things can be quantified.   I doubt seriously I would post results, then individuals would want to argue what their favorite is, or why were the tests not conducted this way or that lol. Also no one wants to find out a tube they know and love may not have made the cut or did not finish toward the top. It is best to let individuals make up their own minds and be happy with what they have. Many of these tubes are hard to find or cost much more than most folks want to spend.


Agree as there is no clear best in the common tubes, some may rank higher due to reviews or placibo effect after reading one 😏
It all comes to personal preference and taste same like cars, food and clothes (women 🤐🤐)
The hard to find tubes are a different story and yeah mostly not subject to wide public discussion due to the scarce quantity at hand.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> And here all along I thought your moniker was a reference to Yoda.  Guess I looked at the wrong family photo.


True I also thought he's my fellow co-actor in Star Wars 🤣🤣🤣
That he can unplug and change a tube without even touching it lol


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 31, 2021)

Odin412 said:


> Agreed. I bought a Psvane replica of the WE 274B rectifier tube for my Woo Audio WA6. Good stuff.


Is it true that its speed makes it more SS sounding


----------



## Odin412

Slade01 said:


> Nice.  I wish Psvane would make a power tube equivalent (6AS7), I don't think they ever did though.



+1 to that. Here's hoping that someone at Psvane is reading this thread.


----------



## Odin412

HTSkywalker said:


> Is it true that its speed makes it more SS sounding



I don't think I would call it solid-state sounding, but YMMV. My notes say "Deep, juicy bass; open, spacious and vivid midrange; smooth and extended treble". Hmm, does the fact that I have to keep notes on how my tubes sound mean that I own too many? Nah.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Odin412 said:


> I don't think I would call it solid-state sounding, but YMMV. My notes say "Deep, juicy bass; open, spacious and vivid midrange; smooth and extended treble". Hmm, does the fact that I have to keep notes on how my tubes sound mean that I own too many? Nah.


lol you just listed Solid state amps characteristics 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> lol you just listed Solid state amps characteristics 🤣🤣🤣



Yes - but these characteristics are delivered in a more lively and vibrant way, versus a very dry and clinical presentation that often SS amps do.  

If you're looking for speed and garner some of the SS sound...also consider running a power tube (tungsol or cetron 7236) in that DV.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> lol you just listed Solid state amps characteristics 🤣🤣🤣


They sound like tube characteristics as well


----------



## Odin412

Maybe I like my solid state amps to sound like tube amps, or my tube amps to sound like solid state amps? Or maybe I'm just confused? I don't know - I'm just having fun with audio.


----------



## donato

Odin412 said:


> Maybe I like my solid state amps to sound like tube amps, or my tube amps to sound like solid state amps? Or maybe I'm just confused? I don't know - I'm just having fun with audio.



I think that makes some sense.  We want each type to overcome bad examples of that technology (e.g. tubes that are overly warm with flabby or rolled off bass or SS that is bright and overly analytical).


----------



## JKDJedi

HTSkywalker said:


> True I also thought he's my fellow co-actor in Star Wars 🤣🤣🤣
> That he can unplug and change a tube without even touching it lol


Well...I can .. 😎 😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

JKDJedi said:


> Well...I can .. 😎 😂


As long as Finnegan does not watch this 😂


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Well...I can .. 😎 😂



ROFL!   Can you use the force on a GE and make it sound like a Bendix?  

Please?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> ROFL!   Can you use the force on a GE and make it sound like a Bendix?
> 
> Please?


Impossible even for Yoda himself 😂😂


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> ROFL!   Can you use the force on a GE and make it sound like a Bendix?
> 
> Please?


@JKDJedi can you use the force and force choke the hell out of a GE to explode?


----------



## jonathan c

donato said:


> I think that makes some sense.  We want each type to overcome bad examples of that technology (e.g. tubes that are overly warm with flabby or rolled off bass or SS that is bright and overly analytical).


We just want the best of everything...including WE at GE prices....


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi can you use the force and force choke the hell out of a GE to explode?


Why? It should be perfectly able to do that at random.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Why? It should be perfectly able to do that at random.


It will, given enough time.  You know, like 10 or 11 hours.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> It will, given enough time.  You know, like 10 or 11 hours.


True but still they do last for very long years (mostly collecting dust 😜) as no one can tolerate 10 hours of music coming from a GE tube in a single lifetime 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> True but still they do last for very long years (mostly collecting dust 😜) as no one can tolerate 10 hours of music coming from a GE tube in a single lifetime 🤣🤣🤣


That is why the CIA used GEs for “tube-boarding”...


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 5, 2021)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MELZ-6N8S-...303839?hash=item2afe134b9f:g:DokAAOSwvClgHV1h

I ran one of these all weekend and while this is not a good price to pay, the tube itself has promise. I particularly like Melz from the fifties and early sixties and I prefer this tube to some of the 70's and 80's Melz 1578's, the mids are accurate and not overpowering like some of those. Utopias show just how good the upper range is on some of the Melz and this tube is no exception. If you can find some of these for around $25 they are an exceptional find IMHO.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MELZ-6N8S-...303839?hash=item2afe134b9f:g:DokAAOSwvClgHV1h
> 
> I ran one of these all weekend and while this is not a good price to pay, the tube itself has promise. I particularly like Melz from the fifties and early sixties and I prefer this tube to some of the 70's and 80's Melz 1578's, the mids are accurate and not overpowering like some of those. Utopias show just how good the upper range is on some of the Melz and this tube is no exception. If you can find some of these for around $25 they are an exceptional find IMHO.


I went ahead and ordered the Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT VT231 Black T Plate 1940 WWII Vintage from LowTechelec and Jeff Says Hi once he knew you referred him to me.
@bcowen Likes this tube so it should be nice 🙂🙂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> I went ahead and ordered the Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT VT231 Black T Plate 1940 WWII Vintage from LowTechelec and Jeff Says Hi once he knew you referred him to me.
> @bcowen Likes this tube so it should be nice 🙂🙂


Nice, Jeff is a pretty good guy. I got a tube from Leeds, had issues, emailed him and never heard back.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Nice, Jeff is a pretty good guy. I got a tube from Leeds, had issues, emailed him and never heard back.


This is my 2nd order from him, he's very helpful and he did run a thorough testing on the tube before shipping same like the previous order. He got a new amp on which he plans to sort all his tube stock and the one I ordered was sorted among the premium tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Nice, Jeff is a pretty good guy. I got a tube from Leeds, had issues, emailed him and never heard back.


Do you consider the BottleHead crack an upgrade over the DV sound wise ?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Do you consider the BottleHead crack an upgrade over the DV sound wise ?


If both are stock, the BH Crack is much better IMHO. That being said, I never built a Crack that I did not modify for even better sound but they are easy to get into and made for such changes. By the time you have built one, you will have learned enough to change most anything you want.

Stock cracks, fully built, fetch $600-$750 as I recall.  If you want to build one yourself, watch for a sale and you may get one for $300 instead of $375 with Speedball. It has been a while since I messed around with them so that price could be higher now.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> If both are stock, the BH Crack is much better IMHO. That being said, I never built a Crack that I did not modify for even better sound but they are easy to get into and made for such changes. By the time you have built one, you will have learned enough to change most anything you want.


Was considering the WOO WA6 but the BH Crack seems tempting with the DIY and painting job and possible upgrade. Sound wise it may ends up better sounding than the WOO you think ?


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Was considering the WOO WA6 but the BH Crack seems tempting with the DIY and painting job and possible upgrade. Sound wise it may ends up better sounding than the WOO you think ?


I have not heard that WOO so I best not comment. Both are good brands IMHO.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have not heard that WOO so I best not comment. Both are good brands IMHO.


Heard that the Incubus is THE amp "to rule them all" 👌👌


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Heard that the Incubus is THE amp "to rule them all" 👌👌


I am happy with the end result and others seem to be as well. Two ship soon to folks who have already heard one so at this point all who have heard one wanted one.  I need to build another sample one day but first I am building a small sound system for my wife's pottery shed as well as something that will remain a secret till completed.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am happy with the end result and others seem to be as well. Two ship soon to folks who have already heard one so at this point all who have heard one wanted one.  I need to build another sample one day but first I am building a small sound system for my wife's pottery shed as well as something that will remain a secret till completed.


Staying tuned for the secret to be completed and out


----------



## DenverW

HTSkywalker said:


> Was considering the WOO WA6 but the BH Crack seems tempting with the DIY and painting job and possible upgrade. Sound wise it may ends up better sounding than the WOO you think ?



It depends on what headphones you’re using.  On the sennheiser hd600/650/800 the crack is wonderful.


----------



## HTSkywalker

DenverW said:


> It depends on what headphones you’re using.  On the sennheiser hd600/650/800 the crack is wonderful.


I have the Focal Elear as well as Hifiman Ananda and AKG K550 and I know that planars are out of the question 🙂 so the Elear is the main phones for OTL use


----------



## DenverW

HTSkywalker said:


> I have the Focal Elear as well as Hifiman Ananda and AKG K550 and I know that planars are out of the question 🙂 so the Elear is the main phones for OTL use



I would say no to the crack, then.  It doesn’t play well with focal and hifiman.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> It depends on what headphones you’re using.  On the sennheiser hd600/650/800 the crack is wonderful.







I modded my own headphones and built the cable to the Crack I kept. I also went with a bigger cabinet so I could add any parts I wished to the Crack. I did this during my steampunk period. Dual pots, VU meters, nothing plugging in the top, quartered oak and 2.5 lbs of solid copper. I prefer a nice solid base to cut down on microphony.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I modded my own headphones and built the cable to the Crack I kept. I also went with a bigger cabinet so I could add any parts I wished to the Crack. I did this during my steampunk period. Dual pots, VU meters, nothing plugging in the top, quartered oak and 2.5 lbs of solid copper. I prefer a nice solid base to cut down on microphony.


well this is a signature amp (same how AMG and Maybach alter cars) 😃


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> well this is a signature amp (same how AMG and Maybach alter cars) 😃


The Crack needs 150 ohms up, the DV claims to go down to 32 ohms but realistically I would use 100 ohm up. My Incubus I like to use with 50 ohms up and the Focal Utopias at 80 ohms are to die for with said amp. For 6sn7 testing on four of my amps we use HD800's since most of my group had those, they do a nice job as well.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The Crack needs 150 ohms up, the DV claims to go down to 32 ohms but realistically I would use 100 ohm up. My Incubus I like to use with 50 ohms up and the Focal Utopias at 80 ohms are to die for with said amp. For 6sn7 testing on four of my amps we use HD800's since most of my group had those, they do a nice job as well.


Ok I will let go the Crack in that case ☹ as the Focal sounds good on the DV and probably would also do so with the Incubus with the same 80 Ohms impedance of the Utopias lol 😉😉


----------



## DenverW

For Bottlehead, the s.e.x. And mainline amps work well with focal.


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 7, 2021)

Not a 6SN7, but mellifluous with ambiance, detail, and dynamic range. A nice surprise and inexpensive, to boot. The Woo adapters are a plus.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 8, 2021)

Today my choice of tubes is a Melz 1578 from 1958, I have one from 1961 on the way as well.  The 58 sounds every bit as good as my favorite 1963. Sound is well balanced across the entire spectrum, tight accurate bass and wonderful mids and highs. If you have not heard the perforated plates from this time period they are well worth checking out just remember the solder may be breaking down in the pins and can require attention.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Today my choice of tubes is a Melz 1578 from 1958, I have one from 1961 on the way as well.  The 58 sounds every bit as good as my favorite 1963. Sound is well balanced across the entire spectrum, tight accurate bass and wonderful mids and highs. If you have not heard the perforated plates from this time period they are well worth checking out just remember the solder may be breaking down in the pins and can require attention.


Am getting dragged in buying more 6SN7 tubes as am hearing good things about from this forum, not sure though if such tubes like the TS 5998, the Raytheon t Plate or the Melz you are mentioning would be a waste in the DV and if the DV can give them any justice.
BTW how's the shed project progressing


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 8, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Am getting dragged in buying more 6SN7 tubes as am hearing good things about from this forum, not sure though if such tubes like the TS 5998, the Raytheon t Plate or the Melz you are mentioning would be a waste in the DV and if the DV can give them any justice.
> BTW how's the shed project progressing


The Russian tubes do not play well with a DV, but the TS 5998 may do all right.

The shed is nearly done, it will be wrapped up today or tomorrow. All wooden tables and small shelves inside will be maple since @bcowen says it sounds the best  .  Just some trim to go up and it is finished. I am using a curly maple slab for one table.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The Russian tubes do not play well with a DV, but the TS 5998 may do all right.
> 
> The shed is nearly done, it will be wrapped up today or tomorrow. All wooden tables and small shelves inside will be maple since @bcowen says it sounds the best  .  Just some trim to go up and it is finished. I am using a curly maple slab for one table.


Came up beautifully 😍with nice choice of colors, have a feeling that you did all the woodwork yourself including the floor 🙂
@bcowen recommendation for maple may come in handy but don't consider his recommendation for any electric appliances you may install in the shed 😆
as as a happy Mrs. @Paladin79 will make lie much happier.
Maybe I should halt my tube purchases until I decide which amp I should upgrade towards, unless I can find a good amp which will make use of the 6SN7 and 6AS7G/5998/6080 tubes I started collecting.


----------



## FLTWS

HTSkywalker said:


> Am getting dragged in buying more 6SN7 tubes as am hearing good things about from this forum, not sure though if such tubes like the TS 5998, the Raytheon t Plate or the Melz you are mentioning would be a waste in the DV and if the DV can give them any justice.
> BTW how's the shed project progressing


LOL, I finally came to my senses after spending thousands on all tube types for my multiple tube amps mostly over the past 5 years.
"Hi! Mine name is Frank, and I haven't bought a tube in 6 months."


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Came up beautifully 😍with nice choice of colors, have a feeling that you did all the woodwork yourself including the floor 🙂
> @bcowen recommendation for maple may come in handy but don't consider his recommendation for any electric appliances you may install in the shed 😆
> as as a happy Mrs. @Paladin79 will make lie much happier.
> Maybe I should halt my tube purchases until I decide which amp I should upgrade towards, unless I can find a good amp which will make use of the 6SN7 and 6AS7G/5998/6080 tubes I started collecting.


I am doing a few things but not the floor or trim. I helped with the ceiling and will do all shelves. I am too busy building amps to help pay for it.

Do you use a standard IEC connection on your DV, I recall you use 220v. If your amp does not have much hum you are doing much better with it than what I heard through mine lol


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> LOL, I finally came to my senses after spending thousands on all tube types for my multiple tube amps mostly over the past 5 years.
> "Hi! Mine name is Frank, and I haven't bought a tube in 6 months."


LOL I do believe you are running out of tube types to buy.


----------



## HTSkywalker

FLTWS said:


> LOL, I finally came to my senses after spending thousands on all tube types for my multiple tube amps mostly over the past 5 years.
> "Hi! Mine name is Frank, and I haven't bought a tube in 6 months."


Hope there is another recovery group for buying amps or buying in general, as the shopping spree is paramount around here.
A friend proposed to use the shock therapy by telling THE wife how much he is spending on his hobbies, he's still recovering in ER 🤣🤣 (kidding lol)


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am doing a few things but not the floor or trim. I helped with the ceiling and will do all shelves. I am too busy building amps to help pay for it.
> 
> Do you use a standard IEC connection on your DV, I recall you use 220v. If your amp does not have much hum you are doing much better with it than what I heard through mine lol


Well with 220V a slight hum is audible around 11 increasing slightly with the dialup but nothing to affect the musical representation and does not seem to be specific tube dependent.
While the hum extends through my Rolls SS32 RCA switch to all other amps, removing the Pre-amp tube kills it or totally shutting down the DV. Not sure if it's tube related or amp related though but I can live with it given the cheap price of the DV. My next amp should definitely be a silent upgrade able to drive low impedance cans including planars (if such amp does exist lol)


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Well with 220V a slight hum is audible around 11 increasing slightly with the dialup but nothing to affect the musical representation and does not seem to be specific tube dependent.
> While the hum extends through my Rolls SS32 RCA switch to all other amps, removing the Pre-amp tube kills it or totally shutting down the DV. Not sure if it's tube related or amp related though but I can live with it given the cheap price of the DV. My next amp should definitely be a silent upgrade able to drive low impedance cans including planars (if such amp does exist lol)


Some use my amp with 32 ohm headphones but I prefer 50 up and I have a few sets of planars. Maybe one day I will change one over to 220v and let you hear it but I do have several projects ahead of me before I do that. 

Anyway I need to sort through a few 6sn7's that I will include with one of my amps, the Svetlana winged C is my choice of power tube I generally send but I may have a 6080 to send as well.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Some use my amp with 32 ohm headphones but I prefer 50 up and I have a few sets of planars. Maybe one day I will change one over to 220v and let you hear it but I do have several projects ahead of me before I do that.
> 
> Anyway I need to sort through a few 6sn7's that I will include with one of my amps, the Svetlana winged C is my choice of power tube I generally send but I may have a 6080 to send as well.


I like both the Svetlana Winged C and the Sylvania 6080WA you sent me 👌👌 a very good choice along with my RCA 6AS7G


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> The Russian tubes do not play well with a DV, but the TS 5998 may do all right.
> 
> The shed is nearly done, it will be wrapped up today or tomorrow. All wooden tables and small shelves inside will be maple since @bcowen says it sounds the best  .  Just some trim to go up and it is finished. I am using a curly maple slab for one table.


Looks nice. How are the acoustics?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Looks nice. How are the acoustics?


Probably terrible lol but my wife is not into audio like me.😁


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> Probably terrible lol but my wife is not into audio like me.😁





Mr Trev said:


> Looks nice. How are the acoustics?


Probably depends on how much reverb you like.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> Probably depends on how much reverb you like.


Oh the sound will bounce around in there no doubt, but it is a portable device that can be plugged in on the shed porch if we are outside.  Solid state, bluetooth and aux in. three way speakers with a small subwoofer.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> The Russian tubes do not play well with a DV, but the TS 5998 may do all right.
> 
> The shed is nearly done, it will be wrapped up today or tomorrow. All wooden tables and small shelves inside will be maple since @bcowen says it sounds the best  .  Just some trim to go up and it is finished. I am using a curly maple slab for one table.


Very nice. @bcowen must love the wall colour. I assume that GE lighting will not be used.


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> I like both the Svetlana Winged C and the Sylvania 6080WA you sent me 👌👌 a very good choice along with my RCA 6AS7G


I have always thought that the 6080 sounded more 'robust" than the 6AS7, but my last exposure to the two was years ago.


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> I have always thought that the 6080 sounded more 'robust" than the 6AS7, but my last exposure to the two was years ago.


Well to each it’s advantage IMHO, they have different mating with various pre-amp tubes


----------



## FLTWS (Apr 8, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> I have always thought that the 6080 sounded more 'robust" than the 6AS7, but my last exposure to the two was years ago.


you may be right, I have the following power tubes for my Inky's.

1 x RCA 6AS7GS (Straight Bottle)

5 x SED Winged “C” 6H13C/6AS7G (3 look to really be NOS-end of factory run before closing)

2 Cetron 7236 (definitely NOS)

3 x Tung-Sol 1961 JAN-CTL-5998

2 x RCA 6080

1 x Philips JAN USA 6080WC

2 x GE 6AS7GA

2 x RCA NOS 6AS7G 6AS7 6080 5998 O getter M / P (same date code) (Coke Bottle)

2 x RCA NOS 6AS7G 6AS7 6080 5998 O getter M / P (different date codes) (Coke Bottle)

I also really like the 5998's and especially the Cetron 7236's


----------



## HTSkywalker

FLTWS said:


> you may be right, I have the following power tubes for my Inky's.
> 
> 1 x RCA 6AS7GS (Straight Bottle)
> 
> ...


You prefer it on the Tung Sol 5998 ?


----------



## FLTWS

No. But I get Sam6550a's drift, the 6080 was a bit more "positive" or "there" sounding, but nothing terribly wrong with 6AS7's, I mean were talkin' razors edge thin differences if the tubes are in proper working order with clean pins tightly soldiered and clean tube socket receptacles.
It's easy to make ones self crazy chasing your tail on tube matters. Try one of each if you can get them and hear for yourself.


----------



## HTSkywalker

FLTWS said:


> No. But I get Sam6550a's drift, the 6080 was a bit more "positive" or "there" sounding, but nothing terribly wrong with 6AS7's, I mean were talkin' razors edge thin differences if the tubes are in proper working order with clean pins tightly soldiered and clean tube socket receptacles.
> It's easy to make ones self crazy chasing your tail on tube matters. Try one of each if you can get them and hear for yourself.


By the time the tube warms, do some listening then remove it and replace it with another tube, wait for it to warm.....It would be extremely hard to be able to A/B the sound.  But definitely not a a night and day difference between the RCA 6AS7G, the Svetlana Winged C and the Sylvania 6080WA (what I currently have)


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> By the time the tube warms, do some listening then remove it and replace it with another tube, wait for it to warm.....It would be extremely hard to be able to A/B the sound.  But definitely not a a night and day difference between the RCA 6AS7G, the Svetlana Winged C and the Sylvania 6080WA (what I currently have)


The winged C is based on the RCA 6as7g, I believe their equipment came from RCA. Later RCA went to a top getter as I recall.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The winged C is based on the RCA 6as7g, I believe their equipment came from RCA. Later RCA went to a top getter as I recall.


In fact in a blind test, there is no way I can figure out the sound signature between the 2, The 6080 is a different beast.


----------



## FLTWS

HTSkywalker said:


> By the time the tube warms, do some listening then remove it and replace it with another tube, wait for it to warm.....It would be extremely hard to be able to A/B the sound.  But definitely not a a night and day difference between the RCA 6AS7G, the Svetlana Winged C and the Sylvania 6080WA (what I currently have)


 I would want the tube to go cool to the touch first, popping hot tubes in and out on a quick cycle like that never struck me as a good idea. Especially, especially at these prices. But a tube warm up? Not a big deal like SS, just a few minutes say 10 to 15. I just use my go-to evaluation material that I've been using for years. and rely on my auditory memory. The real important thing is to make sure volume levels are identical.


----------



## HTSkywalker

FLTWS said:


> I would want the tube to go cool to the touch first, popping hot tubes in and out on a quick cycle like that never struck me as a good idea. Especially, especially at these prices. But a tube warm up? Not a big deal like SS, just a few minutes say 10 to 15. I just use my go-to evaluation material that I've been using for years. and rely on my auditory memory. The real important thing is to make sure volume levels are identical.


Best would be to have 2 identical amps with a headphone source switch between the 2 amps with different tubes to compare. Lucky you but no high precision auditory memory here ☹


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 8, 2021)

We were discussing best tube storage boxes few days back and just came across this company
https://papertube.cc/pages/blank-tubes
Minimum order is 500 though, mostly directed to Tube Hoarders who may consider a 3 or 4 figures quantity ( a couple I know off on this forum at least lol)
Just Imagining someone writing or printing 500 GE tube labels 😁😁🤐🤐🤐


----------



## FLTWS

HTSkywalker said:


> Best would be to have 2 identical amps with a headphone source switch between the 2 amps with different tubes to compare. Lucky you but no high precision auditory memory here ☹


Yep 2 identical would be the ticket, the acid test. As far as auditory memory goes, do you think you could tell the difference between a guitar playing in the next room versus a recording of what was just played reproduced over a loudspeaker. I think audiophiles have a tendency to sell themselves short on their hearing ability. As long as there are no medical issues with them, we start hearing the day we are born so we've had lots of practice. The key is don't be afraid to go with your first impression and avoid "the second guessing game."


----------



## FLTWS

HTSkywalker said:


> We were discussing best tube storage boxes few days back and just came across this company
> https://papertube.cc/pages/blank-tubes
> Minimum order is 500 though, mostly directed to Tube Hoarders who may consider a 3 or 4 figures quantity ( a couple I know off on this forum at least lol)
> Just Imagining someone writing or printing 500 GE tube labels 😁😁🤐🤐🤐


LOL, you can buy blank boxes in small quantities at Antique Electronic Supply for just about any size tube. And I think I would prefer square boxes that won't roll off the table or countertop with a $100 plus tube inside, plus square can be stacked.


----------



## HTSkywalker

FLTWS said:


> Yep 2 identical would be the ticket, the acid test. As far as auditory memory goes, do you think you could tell the difference between a guitar playing in the next room versus a recording of what was just played reproduced over a loudspeaker. I think audiophiles have a tendency to sell themselves short on their hearing ability. As long as there are no medical issues with them, we start hearing the day we are born so we've had lots of practice. The key is don't be afraid to go with your first impression and avoid "the second guessing game."


The more scientific way to compare audio is normally the widely trusted one as personal single testing may ends up biased to the listener's liking.
@Paladin79 is the expert in conducting an "at large" tube comparison experiment involving blind testing, professional engineers and listeners with neutral non-coloring equipment and this eliminates personal biased conclusions which may be affected by personal audio preferences.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 8, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact in a blind test, there is no way I can figure out the sound signature between the 2, The 6080 is a different beast.


I have a more difficult time discerning differences in power tubes.

  I also have a hard time believing just because I like a tube others will. FLTWS is very objective and I relied on him and a few others when I found the solid plate Melz 1578 style tube. He, @bcowen, @Ripper2860, @sam6550a , and others heard it. I also had seven local friends do a blind listen and most rated it higher than I did for our tube challenge.  It is just how I go about things and FLTWS I regard very highly in his abilities and sonic descriptions. All own at least one of my amps so they are hearing what I hear for the most part. Sam will have his very own, as will another friend on here.


----------



## whirlwind

FLTWS said:


> I would want the tube to go cool to the touch first, popping hot tubes in and out on a quick cycle like that never struck me as a good idea. Especially, especially at these prices. But a tube warm up? Not a big deal like SS, just a few minutes say 10 to 15. I just use my go-to evaluation material that I've been using for years. and rely on my auditory memory. The real important thing is to make sure volume levels are identical.


That is a very good practice to allow the tube to cool to the touch.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I have a more difficult time discerning differences in power tubes.
> 
> I also have a hard time believing just because I like a tube others will. FLTWS is very objective and I relied on him and a few others when I found the solid plate Melz 1578 style tube. He, @bcowen, @Ripper2860, @sam6550a , and others heard it. I also had seven local friends do a blind listen and most rated it higher than I did for our tube challenge.  It is just how I go about things and FLTWS I regard very highly in his abilities and sonic descriptions. All own at least one of my amps so they are hearing what I hear for the most part. Sam will have his very own, as will another friend on here.


I must agree that I have a very difficult time sorting through sonic differences in power tubes, especially tetrodes and beam power tubes. Single ended amps tend to show discernible differences more easily than push-pull configurations. Of course, your results may vary.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 9, 2021)

I normally use this switch to be able to compare any 2 amps by connecting the amps to A & B ports and the headphones to I/O port all using 3.5mm plugs:

https://www.amazon.com/Sescom-SES-I...child=1&keywords=sescom&qid=1617970100&sr=8-6

Even though made in the US but still not a quality product and overpriced but would do the job for comparison purposes. No Audio memory needed 😜

When used to compare my 4 headphone amps it will go like this:
1- Violectric V90 = Cruel fast cold precise powerful wide soundstage
2- Mcintosch High-Drive = Bit warm, powerful, laid back transparent small soundstage
3- Cavalli CTH = Touch of warmth sweet powerful enough with planars precise wide soundstage good separation
4- Darkvoice = WARM bit muddy (tube dependent) sweet powerful laid back not much precision or precise positioning

The DV is the king of Jazz, Blues and vocals followed by the CTH
The Violectric is an all rounder
The CTH is the 1 to chose if I have to keep only 1
The Mcintosch is just OK


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 9, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> I normally use this switch to be able to compare any 2 amps by connecting the amps to A & B ports and the headphones to I/O port all using 3.5mm plugs
> https://www.amazon.com/Sescom-SES-I...child=1&keywords=sescom&qid=1617970100&sr=8-6
> Even though made in the US but still not a quality product and overpriced but would do the job for comparison purposes. No Audio memory needed 😜


I have built such devices and when needing one quickly that can handle four amps I go with Kramer switch boxes at home.  FLTWS mentioned earlier that signal level should be the same in all amps, at home I have multiple VU meters that I use to monitor each amp. The maple pieces on the top belong to FLTWS and they were certainly fun to build.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 9, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I have built such devices and when needing one quickly that can handle four amps I go with Kramer switch boxes at home.  FLTWS mentioned earlier that signal level should be the same in all amps, at home I have multiple VU meters that I use to monitor each amp. The maple pieces on the top belong to FLTWS and they were certainly fun to build.


True, I always bring the comparison amps to the same level before switching and testing. It's just a basic box, good to compare 2 similar amps driving different tubes.
I see lots of Schiit products in your set😍
Been waiting for the Loki Mini + to be out for some time now, they have delaying the production for at least 2-3 months now


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 9, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> True, I always bring the comparison amps to the same level before switching and testing. It's just a basic box, good to compare 2 similar amps driving different tubes.
> I see lots of Schiit products in your set😍
> Been waiting for the Loki Mini + to be out for some time now, they have delaying the production for at least 2-3 months now


I have or have had most all of Schiit's tube gear except for the Saga because I have a Freya plus.  I have a full size setup and a midsize setup with a Bifrost 2 and Lyr 3.  I know Jason some because I did early work with his hybrid Coaster amp and I set him up for a 6sn7 tube challenge including all switch boxes and matching cables I made. Being a member of the trade has its advantages.   Jason noticed me talking to Bill about a tube challenge he and I did, and asked if he could use some of the same tubes. I sent him better ones since there was a GE in Bill's as well as a tube that sounded nearly as bad lol. Four Sagas were used and you can see some of my cables and switches, and a splitter I made behind them.  The RCA grey glass did well and a black glass Ken-Rad VT 231 as I recall.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Interesting product I came across but not sure if it would help eliminate the DV hum 🧐
https://ifi-audio.com/products/ac-ipurifier/


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Interesting product I came across but not sure if it would help eliminate the DV hum 🧐
> https://ifi-audio.com/products/ac-ipurifier/


I doubt it would help the DV, I have very clean power here and my DV still has plenty of hum. A close friend is a manager and engineer with my power company, he helped with power to my shed to make sure I did not get a ground loop, I have a couple five foot copper rods driven into the earth in a couple locations.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I doubt it would help the DV, I have very clean power here and my DV still has plenty of hum. A close friend is a manager and engineer with my power company, he helped with power to my shed to make sure I did not get a ground loop, I have a couple five foot copper rods driven into the earth in a couple locations.


What a shame. With the name ‘DarkVoice’, should one always expect hum?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> What a shame. With the name ‘DarkVoice’, should one always expect hum?


There are some design issues and many people I know are modding them just to get rid of said hum. They are a $200 amp on Drop. I got one so I could help @bcowen with an extension so he could use larger components when he did his mod. Mine will be nothing like the original when I get around to it. Here is Bill's extension I made.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> There are some design issues and many people I know are modding them just to get rid of said hum. They are a $200 amp on Drop. I got one so I could help @bcowen with an extension so he could use larger components when he did his mod. Mine will be nothing like the original when I get around to it. Here is Bill's extension I made.


Would be helpful if there is a list of modifications


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Would be helpful if there is a list of modifications


Would not such “a” list vary by modifier?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Would not such “a” list vary by modifier?


Various changes are out there, and many are following a new list LordGowen made. I will be using a power supply I designed and possibly a different power transformer.  Fits mods have been out for a while. I tend to think for myself.😺


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Would not such “a” list vary by modifier?


Obvious components to be upgraded should be common, upgraded parts may vary.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Obvious components to be upgraded should be common, upgraded parts may vary.


I suppose that is true. I have not read the other mods, if mine does not sound close to an Incubus when done I will give it away.😺


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I suppose that is true. I have not read the other mods, if mine does not sound close to an Incubus when done I will give it away.😺


If you are ever in a generous mood and are giving away YOUR amps, I'll take one off your hands.....no questions asked!


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> If you are ever in a generous mood and are giving away YOUR amps, I'll take one off your hands.....no questions asked!


I have given away 7 lol, I intend to stop there.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have given away 7 lol, I intend to stop there.


I heard stopping at odd numbers is a bad omen. Am ready to save you from it 🤪🤪🤪


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> I heard stopping at odd numbers is a bad omen. Am ready to save you from it 🤪🤪🤪


Ir depends on his philosophy...7 is a lucky number in the U.S. but in China it's an 8 due to it's infinity association.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 9, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Ir depends on his philosophy...7 is a lucky number in the U.S. but in China it's an 8 due to it's infinity association.


My lucky number is eight, I should give another amp to my son, that will make eight lol. 

I need the money, right now I have a shed to pay for and I have yet to receive the bill on the current work. The shed is complete now.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> My lucky number is eight, I should give another amp to my son, that will make eight lol.
> 
> I need the money, right now I have a shed to pay for and I have yet to receive the bill on the current work. The shed is complete now.


Shed? I lived in far less attractive and less well-built places all through college! Looks really nice, @Paladin79, congrats.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> "Hi! Mine name is Frank, and I haven't bought a tube in 6 months."



I will pray for you and hope you get better very soon.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Looks nice. How are the acoustics?


The doors aren't maple, so you already know.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> My lucky number is eight, I should give another amp to my son, that will make eight lol.
> 
> I need the money, right now I have a shed to pay for and I have yet to receive the bill on the current work. The shed is complete now.


The shed, the ‘work domicile’, is impressive: kudos!  (Will the affiliation now be “cables for more”?) 😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Various changes are out there, and many are following a new list *LordGowen* made. I will be using a power supply I designed and possibly a different power transformer. Fits mods have been out for a while. I tend to think for myself.😺


Sorry to be nitpicky here, but it's @L0rdGwyn that revamped and posted the most extensive DV modifications (at least here on HeadFi). Just want to be sure the credit is where it's due, and no possible confusion with me.  I _am_ a Lord of course, but only at copying what smarter people do.     

And seriously to @HTSkywalker :  the mods L0rdGwyn did are detailed quite nicely in the DV 336 thread.  You'll just have to read back through the past couple months to find them all.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 9, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> The shed, the ‘work domicile’, is impressive: kudos!  (Will the affiliation now be “cables for more”?) 😜


Well something have to give 😜
Got a strange feeling though about most of the workers getting no cash for their work but instead walking out happily with strange looking tubes with a clumsy smile on their face after being brainwashed by @Paladin79 🤩🤩🤩


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The doors aren't maple, so you already know.


Hear hear 
If you can smuggle this remark to Mrs @Paladin79 about her husband going cheap with the shed acoustics 🤪🤪


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Sorry to be nitpicky here, but it's @L0rdGwyn that revamped and posted the most extensive DV modifications (at least here on HeadFi). Just want to be sure the credit is where it's due, and no possible confusion with me.  I _am_ a Lord of course, but only at copying what smarter people do.
> 
> And seriously to @HTSkywalker :  the mods L0rdGwyn did are detailed quite nicely in the DV 336 thread.  You'll just have to read back through the past couple months to find them all.


Well noted 👍


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Hear hear
> If you can smuggle this remark to Mrs @Paladin79 about her husband going cheap with the shed acoustics 🤪🤪


That's an awesome idea.  Blackmail.  I_ like_ it!!


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Well something have to give 😜
> Got a strange feeling though about most of the workers getting no cash for their work but instead walking out happily with strange looking GE tubes with a clumsy smile on their face after being brainwashed by @Paladin79 🤩🤩🤩


----------



## HTSkywalker

That would be too evil even for @Paladin79 and may lead to a class action against him if we rat him out.
Of course he’s a good friend of ours and we’d give it a second thought after he mail us each an amp 😛
Or take his chances with a GE lawyer taking on his case...good luck with that 😜😜


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> That would be too evil even for @Paladin79 and may lead to a class action against him if we rat him out.
> Of course he’s a good friend of ours and we’d give it a second thought after he mail us each an amp 😛
> Or take his chances with a GE lawyer taking on his case...good luck with that 😜😜


You guys are over-thinking this:

1) @Paladin79 wants people to like his amps
2) GE tubes would make #1 impossible

Simple, huh?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You guys are over-thinking this:
> 
> 1) @Paladin79 wants people to like his amps
> 2) GE tubes would make #1 impossible
> ...


3) GE tubes would make @Paladin79’s amps unable to be given away...


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> 3) GE tubes would make @Paladin79’s amps unable to be given away...


Hey, I have some GE branded tubes that are quite wonderful, they were made by Ken-Rad but you can pretend you did not hear that part.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The doors aren't maple, so you already know.


The beams, two work tables, a couple shelves, and an amp cabinet will be maple. That is about all I can think to make with it. I am doing a curly maple slab table that is nearly two inches thick.


jonathan c said:


> The shed, the ‘work domicile’, is impressive: kudos!  (Will the affiliation now be “cables for more”?) 😜


LOL I am on fixed salary but Incubus amps are helping to pay for the shed, I hope to ship two out today. I am still $4,000 under my original budget on the shed so things are going quite well. I had my lawn guys out there last night doing some landscaping and a bit later some hardscape will begin. Sam went to the trouble of sending me Satsumas so he gets special consideration on one of my amps.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> 3) GE tubes would make @Paladin79’s amps unable to be given away...


There are some power tubes with the GE name on them that are pretty decent, the 6sn7's are another matter.


----------



## JTbbb

Paladin79 said:


> Hey, I have some GE branded tubes that are quite wonderful, they were made by Ken-Rad but you can pretend you did not hear that part.



These are Ken-Rad but the code 188 is GE is it not? There are no dots etched on the glass.


----------



## whirlwind (Apr 10, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> These are Ken-Rad but the code 188 is GE is it not? There are no dots etched on the glass.


Those look like Ken Rads to me.

I think maybe.... 188-5 code was the main (original Ken-Rad) factory in Owensboro, KY,
Could be wrong though...I am quite frequently according to my wife.    
I think Ken Rad was sold to GE in 1945.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 10, 2021)

whirlwind said:


> Those look like Ken Rads to me.
> 
> I think maybe.... 188-5 code was the main (original Ken-Rad) factory in Owensboro, KY,
> Could be wrong though...I am quite frequently according to my wife.
> I think Ken Rad was sold to GE in 1945.


What you said certainly sounds correct and some of the Ken-Rads even had the GE logo on them so I have been told. Here is a GE grey glass with Ken-Rad internals as best I can tell. No 188 markings.


----------



## JTbbb

As is often the case when this subject crops up. Internals Internals Internals!


----------



## JTbbb

Could put anything you like on these, but the internals are pure Mullard.


----------



## Paladin79

JTbbb said:


> Could put anything you like on these, but the internals are pure Mullard.


Very nice! The 421A's look kind of familiar.    We have one of the brown base mullards in a 6sn7 equivalent tube challenge and I know it scored quite high.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Could put anything you like on these, but the internals are pure Mullard.


The internals of the ones labeled Western Electric look identical to the stock Chinese tube that came with the Darkvoice.



Kidding of course...really sweet looking setup there!


----------



## JTbbb

The 421A’s are indeed lovely, how was the bottle of wine? 😀


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 10, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> The 421A’s are indeed lovely, how was the bottle of wine? 😀


Very nice, almost as good as the one @bcowen bought me when he lost a bet pertaining to a GE tube.  I am so glad the tubes worked out for you.

Bill's bottle of wine came with a steak dinner from the same place Mellencamp took Billy Joel when he was in town. In both cases this was my choice, a 2014 vintage.

Caparzo, Rosso di Montalcino
Montalcino, Italy

I even sent Bill a bottle since he was a good sport, on this particular occasion.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> There are some power tubes with the GE name on them that are pretty decent, the 6sn7's are another matter.


It is really hard to beat GE 6550A beam power tubes---if you can find them.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> It is really hard to beat GE 6550A beam power tubes---if you can find them.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998A-Dual...619378?hash=item1c4f2093f2:g:1moAAOSweW5U9snR

Any thoughts on these, anyone?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998A-Dual...619378?hash=item1c4f2093f2:g:1moAAOSweW5U9snR
> 
> Any thoughts on these, anyone?


Yes, but I'm sure the forum software would replace my text with *************************.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yes, but I'm sure the forum software would replace my text with *************************.


Received well and clear 😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Received well and clear 😂😂😂


Hey, they could be wonderful. Buy one and let me know. Seriously it is Bill's turn to be the guinea pig.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Received well and clear 😂😂😂


Perhaps @Paladin79 should have phrased the question to "anyone *except* bcowen."  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Perhaps @Paladin79 should have phrased the question to "anyone *except* bcowen."  LOL!


I have a feeling you have never heard a GE 5998, I cannot be buying such things since I am building things for the shed. I should even be able to make dovetail joints soon and the first time I use them on an Incubus, I bet I get a few offers.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey, they could be wonderful. Buy one and let me know. Seriously it is Bill's turn to be the guinea pig.


I was promoted several months ago to Guinea Pig Coordinator.  My service term as an active pig was fully satisfied a while back.    @HTSkywalker would be my logical first choice, but since the shipping cost may be prohibitive and somewhat unfair, I'll elect @sam6550a instead.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I should even be able to make dovetail joints soon and the first time I use them on an Incubus, I bet I get a few offers.


I want royalties.  Or at least the first one.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> I was promoted several months ago to Guinea Pig Coordinator.  My service term as an active pig was fully satisfied a while back.    @HTSkywalker would be my logical first choice, but since the shipping cost may be prohibitive and somewhat unfair, I'll elect @sam6550a instead.


Your generosity is overwhelming! However, since paladin79 is overwhelmed with finishing [and paying for] a pottery "shed" that has more amenities than many homes, I have stepped forward and ordered one of the 5998A GE tubes to try in Incubus. I will report my findings to paladin79 and he will disseminate the results as he sees fit. I am always ready to help a friend in need!


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 10, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> Could put anything you like on these, but the internals are pure Mullard.


@JTbbb that is a killer tube set. I just received a pair of 1965 Mullard EL34 (branded Lorenz but have the "B" imprint signifying Mullard's Blackburn plant). I'm running them as powers in Feliks Elise with adapters, loving them, euphonic but the antithesis of sloppy as some warmly musical tubes can be. I may like them even better than the excellent GEC KT66 which are great but a bit rolled off on the top end, the EL34 aren't!

My next quest may be Mullard ECC32 but can't find any that aren't pushing a grand...ouch. Where did you source yours from?

My next quest may be Mullard ECC32 but can't find any that aren't pushing a grand...ouch. Sometimes differing labels with same internals are less spendy if seller isn't sure what he has so doesn't gouge. Where did you source yours from?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I want royalties.  Or at least the first one.


LOL since I am getting my shop back I found several cardboard boxes that are worthy of you, they already have corners so there are no dovetails in your immediate future. 
 You may need to take Ripper lessons, he sent me a nice bottle of cognac and I have yet to receive a measly little bottle of 21 year old Balvenie from you, here maybe this helps.

https://costplusliquors.com/product...vnQf1Ku6hLhAJ8rve4N8RckfFFYZcXBUaAluIEALw_wcB


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> LOL since I am getting my shop back I found several cardboard boxes that are worthy of you, they already have corners so there are no dovetails in your immediate future.
> You may need to take Ripper lessons, he sent me a nice bottle of cognac and I have yet to receive a measly little bottle of 21 year old Balvenie from you, here maybe this helps.
> 
> https://costplusliquors.com/product...vnQf1Ku6hLhAJ8rve4N8RckfFFYZcXBUaAluIEALw_wcB


paladin79---when did you start drinking the budget brands?


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> I have a feeling you have never heard a GE 5998, I cannot be buying such things since I am building things for the shed. I should even be able to make dovetail joints soon and the first time I use them on an Incubus, I bet I get a few offers.


"tryin' to make a dovetail joint, yeah..."
-John Lennon, "Glass Onion" (Beatles' White Album, 1968)


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Your generosity is overwhelming! However, since paladin79 is overwhelmed with finishing [and paying for] a pottery "shed" that has more amenities than many homes, I have stepped forward and ordered one of the 5998A GE tubes to try in Incubus. I will report my findings to paladin79 and he will disseminate the results as he sees fit. I am always ready to help a friend in need!


What a great guy Sam is!  Bill, here is someone else whose example you should be following. After I get your findings and add my spin, I bet Bill will start collecting them.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> paladin79---when did you start drinking the budget brands?


We are talking about Bill actually paying for something so I was trying to keep the cost moderate. Seriously I most often get this for special occasions, like any day Bill has not said maple wood sounds best.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> What a great guy Sam is!  Bill, here is someone else whose example you should be following. After I get your findings and add my spin, I bet Bill will start collecting them.


Who knows, this tube may be an undetected diamond in the rough, and we have total control over-------!


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 10, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Delete (duplicate, sorry)


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> What a great guy Sam is!  Bill, here is someone else whose example you should be following. After I get your findings and add my spin, I bet Bill will start collecting them.


I am glad that you have observed my positive social qualities, as well as my audio expertise acquired while working on Radio Row[Cortlandt St] in the early 1960s. In addition to this, and tube centric EE courses, my sense of humor keeps sane and inquisitive. Marriage to the same woman for 50 years [this December] helps (or does it ????


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL since I am getting my shop back I found several cardboard boxes that are worthy of you, they already have corners so there are no dovetails in your immediate future.
> You may need to take Ripper lessons, he sent me a nice bottle of cognac and I have yet to receive a measly little bottle of 21 year old Balvenie from you, here maybe this helps.
> 
> https://costplusliquors.com/product...vnQf1Ku6hLhAJ8rve4N8RckfFFYZcXBUaAluIEALw_wcB



Hey, what a deal!  $209.99 for one bottle, and $209.99 for 3 bottles.   I'll get the 3 bottle deal, and save the other two for the next time(s) I want something.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> We are talking about Bill actually paying for something so I was trying to keep the cost moderate. Seriously I most often get this for special occasions, like any day Bill has not said maple wood sounds best.


Well, folks in the North Carolina mountains are known for being frugal.  So, why did Cary Audio locate there???


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I am glad that you have observed my positive social qualities, as well as my audio expertise acquired while working on Radio Row[Cortlandt St] in the early 1960s. In addition to this, and tube centric EE courses, my sense of humor keeps sane and inquisitive. Marriage to the same woman for 50 years [this December] helps (or does it ????


I was less fortunate and had more transistor theory than tube theory. Tubes were starting to phase out in the seventies when I started with RCA right out of college. My early work was with solid state television but I tinkered with Dynaco on the side.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Your generosity is overwhelming! However, since paladin79 is overwhelmed with finishing [and paying for] a pottery "shed" that has more amenities than many homes, I have stepped forward and ordered one of the 5998A GE tubes to try in Incubus. I will report my findings to paladin79 and he will disseminate the results as he sees fit. I am always ready to help a friend in need!


You *are* the man, Sam.    Maybe it will be like the 6550 (I've never heard one), or even like the GE 211 which I have heard and thought it to be an amazingly good sounding 211.  I can't honestly tell you if GE actually made it though...that was back in my earlier audio years before I knew about things like OEM'ing and rebranding.  Seems RCA was king of the 211/845 tube genre at least as far as US manufacturers, but you never know.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hey, what a deal!  $209.99 for one bottle, and $209.99 for 3 bottles.   I'll get the 3 bottle deal, and save the other two for the next time(s) I want something.


I know I saw that lol, they also ask you to report any errors in their listings.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We are talking about Bill actually paying for something so I was trying to keep the cost moderate. Seriously I most often get this for special occasions, like any day Bill has not said maple wood sounds best.


You mean there are days I _haven't_ said that?  I must be slipping.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 10, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You mean there are days I _haven't_ said that?  I must be slipping.


You have brainwashed me so much that I am only building with maple right now.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> You *are* the man, Sam.    Maybe it will be like the 6550 (I've never heard one), or even like the GE 211 which I have heard and thought it to be an amazingly good sounding 211.  I can't honestly tell you if GE actually made it though...that was back in my earlier audio years before I knew about things like OEM'ing and rebranding.  Seems RCA was king of the 211/845 tube genre at least as far as US manufacturers, but you never know.


Hey bcowen; do NOT confuse 6550 with 6550A, as they are two different [VERY DIFFERENT] animals.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Well, folks in the North Carolina mountains are known for being frugal.  So, why did Cary Audio locate there???


Because Dennis lived in Cary, NC at the time.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 10, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> You have brainwashed me so much that I am only building with maple right now.


Well, maple *is* the best sounding wood.  There.  I got it in for today at least.


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 10, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> Hey bcowen; do NOT confuse 6550 with 6550A, as they are two different [VERY DIFFERENT] animals.


Thanks @sam6550a I believe they are both KT88 equivalents, how do they differ? I bought the 6550's below last year on fleabay, quite good although certainly below the quality of my GEC KT88:

Sorry for briefly going off toipic, we can take it to PM if you prefer.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Hey bcowen; do NOT confuse 6550 with 6550A, as they are two different [VERY DIFFERENT] animals.


Good to know.  Haven't heard either one in GE clothing.  Excluding HP amps for the moment, I've been listening to 300B's for the last 15+ years almost exclusively, with an occasional swap-in of the Cary Super Amp which is a 15wpc push-pull design that can use most any power tube.  I have some Electro Harmonix branded 6550's (Russian manufacture) that are just nasty, but OTOH some EH branded EL34's (6CA7's) that sound very nice in that amp, as do some EH branded KT-88's. A friend of mine with a later version of that same amp loves the EH 6550's, so just a synergy or preference thing I suppose.  I've sold off most of my octal power tube stash since I don't use them much any more.


----------



## sam6550a

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @sam6550a I believe they are both KT88 equivalents, how do they differ? I bought the 6550's below last year on fleabay, quite good although certainly below the quality of my GEC KT88:


Look at the tube characteristics data--besides max plate dissipation there are few differences, but,----------!!??.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Who knows, this tube may be an undetected diamond in the rough, and we have total control over-------!


Anything is possible, of course.  But those are dated 1978, which is more than 3 decades of GE accountants destroying what Ken-Rad had built.     

But thanks for guinea-pigging just the same.  If you say they're awesome, I'll keep my trap shut on GE tubes for an entire week.  Yes, seven whole calendar days.  I may need to be hospitalized afterwards, but I never renege on a deal.


----------



## Galapac

sam6550a said:


> Well, folks in the North Carolina mountains are known for being frugal.  So, why did Cary Audio locate there???


Not frugal, but make their own distilled spirits...


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I am glad that you have observed my positive social qualities, as well as my audio expertise acquired while working on Radio Row[Cortlandt St] in the early 1960s. In addition to this, and tube centric EE courses, my sense of humor keeps sane and inquisitive. Marriage to the same woman for 50 years [this December] helps (or does it ????


50 years?  Congrats!  I'm coming up on 24 which I thought was worthy of a Times Square celebration and recognition for my effort.  But I'd guess my wife is thinking the same thing...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I know I saw that lol, they also ask you to report any errors in their listings.


Do I get two free bottles as a reward?  If not, then I'm not reporting it.  LOL!!!


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Do I get two free bottles as a reward?  If not, then I'm not reporting it.  LOL!!!


Why would I expect anything different--------.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 10, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks @sam6550a I believe they are both KT88 equivalents, how do they differ? I bought the 6550's below last year on fleabay, quite good although certainly below the quality of my GEC KT88:
> 
> Sorry for briefly going off toipic, we can take it to PM if you prefer.


Compared to many things discussed here you closer to topic than I tend to be. In the last couple years I have heard an extremely large amount of 6sn7 equivalents and my preference is a Russian tube that was most likely a mistake or they ran out of perforated plates for a few days making the 1578's in the mid to late fifties.  

I am listening to a perforated plate from 1958 in Sam's amp, along with an RCA JAN 6AS7G I forgot I owned. Later I will try a Chatham bottom getter, so far this Incubus is spot on and ready for Sam. He should have it before he receives the 5998 GE.  My choice tonight is Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section. Next up Dead Can Dance, Into the Labyrinth.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hey, they could be wonderful. Buy one and let me know. Seriously it is Bill's turn to be the guinea pig.


It's on the cheap for $47.49 as the cheapest Tung Sol 5998 is somewhere around $150-200, probably worth a try if you think there is a chance it maybe good (wonderful and GE normally does not come in the same sentence) but @bcowen ******** input on its sound is not that promising ☹☹. Shipping it to me would only costs me peanuts $3-4 given the low weight.


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> Your generosity is overwhelming! However, since paladin79 is overwhelmed with finishing [and paying for] a pottery "shed" that has more amenities than many homes, I have stepped forward and ordered one of the 5998A GE tubes to try in Incubus. I will report my findings to paladin79 and he will disseminate the results as he sees fit. I am always ready to help a friend in need!


In this case I will wait for your impressions on it before ordering 1 if you think it's worth it


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I know I saw that lol, they also ask you to report any errors in their listings.


Definitely a typo but I believe a good lawyer can always force them to deliver all 3 bottles for that price till they correct the listing 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 11, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> What a great guy Sam is!  Bill, here is someone else whose example you should be following. After I get your findings and add my spin, I bet Bill will start collecting them.


Me too 😉 but seems I better order the soonest before the cat is out of the bag and stock disappears. @sam6550a please PM me and @Paladin79 your impressions before posting it here 🙏🙏🙂🙂
Good stock is 10 still 👌


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> Who knows, this tube may be an undetected diamond in the rough, and we have total control over-------!


True but could also ends up a buried S#@%&* in the rough for a good reason given the GE reputation, the low price and the big quantity lol
Hoping for the best though


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 11, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> I am glad that you have observed my positive social qualities, as well as my audio expertise acquired while working on Radio Row[Cortlandt St] in the early 1960s. In addition to this, and tube centric EE courses, my sense of humor keeps sane and inquisitive. Marriage to the same woman for 50 years [this December] helps (or does it ????


"Marriage to the same woman for 50 years [this December] helps (or does it ????"
Dare ask Mrs. @sam6550a this question 😃
And congrats for the 50 Jubilee in December (if you make it that far after asking the above question to Mrs. @sam6550a)


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> 50 years?  Congrats!  I'm coming up on 24 which I thought was worthy of a Times Square celebration and recognition for my effort.  But I'd guess my wife is thinking the same thing...


23 here shortly but am sure that by now we are all branded as old farts by our spouses and normally the recognition committee always have different angle when choosing the trophy recipient lol


----------



## JTbbb

LoryWiv said:


> @JTbbb that is a killer tube set. I just received a pair of 1965 Mullard EL34 (branded Lorenz but have the "B" imprint signifying Mullard's Blackburn plant). I'm running them as powers in Feliks Elise with adapters, loving them, euphonic but the antithesis of sloppy as some warmly musical tubes can be. I may like them even better than the excellent GEC KT66 which are great but a bit rolled off on the top end, the EL34 aren't!
> 
> My next quest may be Mullard ECC32 but can't find any that aren't pushing a grand...ouch. Where did you source yours from?
> 
> My next quest may be Mullard ECC32 but can't find any that aren't pushing a grand...ouch. Sometimes differing labels with same internals are less spendy if seller isn't sure what he has so doesn't gouge. Where did you source yours from?



Hi there LoryWiv,

I got the itch to own a pair of Mullard ECC32’s quite some time ago and after much research decided on the brown based with the crinkley? mica’s.
For a few months I quite literally looked 3 or 4 times a day in the classifieds ready to jump on anything new that interested me.

Also, I put it out to a fellow headfier who resides in Europe, whom I’d bought some tubes from in the past, what I was interested in, and he came up trumps with the pair I now have. I paid a fair price for the Adzam branded pair but not the silly prices being asked by some vendors for the Mullard branded tubes. Good luck with your search they are lovely tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 11, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> It's on the cheap for $47.49 as the cheapest Tung Sol 5998 is somewhere around $150-200, probably worth a try if you think there is a chance it maybe good (wonderful and GE normally does not come in the same sentence) but @bcowen ******** input on its sound is not that promising ☹☹. Shipping it to me would only costs me peanuts $3-4 given the low weight.


Bill has not heard one and you cannot judge a manufacturer by one tube type. I once had a Grammy winning recording engineer tell me to buy $10 6080’’s because there was no sonic difference, plenty of people have opinions. 😜

I am searching for tubes to send Frank with his amp, I came across a Phillips/ECG Jan6080 WC. One of the worst sounding tubes I have heard since I was trying to match tubes with a GE 6sn7 for Bill lol. I cannot in good conscience give this tube away. I think I got it with a BH Crack.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill has not heard one and you cannot judge a manufacturer by one tube type.


True and correct on both counts.  The GE 5998 under discussion may be a great sounding tube.  I don't have the confidence to try one myself, but it may turn out I'm totally wrong about it.  It would be a landmark event (the part about me being wrong), but it *is* possible.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 11, 2021)

bcowen said:


> True and correct on both counts.  The GE 5998 under discussion may be a great sounding tube.  I don't have the confidence to try one myself, but it may turn out I'm totally wrong about it.  It would be a landmark event (the part about me being wrong), but it *is* possible.


We shall see, I may have to buy one myself now before the rush to buy them starts.    For some reason I am woefully short of Sylvania 6sn7's right now, I included bad boys in some of my tube challenges and may have given them away lol.


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998A-Dual...619378?hash=item1c4f2093f2:g:1moAAOSweW5U9snR
> 
> Any thoughts on these, anyone?


I just ordered a pair, I'll let you know.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> I just ordered a pair, I'll let you know.


Cool, both you and Sam will find out. I caught a deal on one so I grabbed it so we may be three very happy or three very disappointed people lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Cool, both you and Sam will find out. I caught a deal on one so I grabbed it so we may be three very happy or three very disappointed people lol.


I ordered some of this.....just so I'll be ready.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I ordered some of this.....just so I'll be ready.


I think Frank, Sam and I should confer privately first and maybe even check them in an Incubus with similar 6sn7's.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am searching for tubes to send Frank with his amp, I came across a Phillips/ECG Jan6080 WC. One of the worst sounding tubes I have heard since I was trying to match tubes with a GE 6sn7 for Bill lol. I cannot in good conscience give this tube away. I think I got it with a BH Crack.


LOL!  I haven't ever heard that 6080 (nor will I ever seek one out).  But the Philips/ECG 5814 (12AU7 variant) is the worst sounding tube I've ever heard.  If it was the 'hallmark' of tube sound, my system would be comprised of solid-state electronics exclusively.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I think Frank, Sam and I should confer privately first and maybe even check them in an Incubus with similar 6sn7's.


Fine.  Be secretive.  My FOMO warning light is _not_ flashing, so I'll be patient.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Bill has not heard one and you cannot judge a manufacturer by one tube type. I once had a Grammy winning recording engineer tell me to buy $10 6080’’s because there was no sonic difference, plenty of people have opinions. 😜
> 
> I am searching for tubes to send Frank with his amp, I came across a Phillips/ECG Jan6080 WC. One of the worst sounding tubes I have heard since I was trying to match tubes with a GE 6sn7 for Bill lol. I cannot in good conscience give this tube away. I think I got it with a BH Crack.


1 more tube to Finnegan 😊😊


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I think Frank, Sam and I should confer privately first and maybe even check them in an Incubus with similar 6sn7's.


Sounds like a good plan.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Fine.  Be secretive.  My FOMO warning light is _not_ flashing, so I'll be patient.


Ditto


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I ordered some of this.....just so I'll be ready.


You’re evil 👹👹👹 hinting to the GE popping indirectly 😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Sounds like a good plan.


A triumvirate of tube testing.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> But the Philips/ECG 5814 (12AU7 variant) is the worst sounding tube I've ever heard.  If it was the 'hallmark' of tube sound, my system would be comprised of solid-state electronics exclusively.



If you are referring to these (Philips ECG 5814) that are blue label, then you sir, are right on the money.  I tried these early with my other amp because they were modestly priced.  It's the feeling you get where you really felt you got tricked, swindled, and robbed.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> You’re evil 👹👹👹 hinting to the GE popping indirectly 😂😂😂


LOL!  That actually wasn't the intent.  Meant more as a snack food while I watch the plot of the movie unfold.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 11, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> If you are referring to these (Philips ECG 5814) that are blue label, then you sir, are right on the money.  I tried these early with my other amp because they were modestly priced.  It's the feeling you get where you really felt you got tricked, swindled, and robbed.


Yup, just like the ones below.  If anyone has ever wondered exactly what the word "glare" refers to when used as an audio descriptor, grab these and you'll know.  Suggest placing thick towels on both shoulders to keep your shirt from getting blood stains when it starts pouring out of your ears.   

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUBES-2-ne...991503&hash=item1cf59e15f3:g:4VEAAOSw~bFWMAiw


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Yup, just like the ones below.  If anyone has ever wondered exactly what the word "glare" referred to when used as an audio descriptor, grab these and you'll know.  Suggest placing thick towels on both shoulders to keep your shirt from getting blood stains when it starts pouring out of your ears.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUBES-2-ne...991503&hash=item1cf59e15f3:g:4VEAAOSw~bFWMAiw


Tell Me you have these because you are going to open a tube museum someday and want one of every 12AU7 tube possible?
These must be as terrible in the 6080 version.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-pcs-Two-...857777?hash=item5497500971:g:6E0AAOSwzAxeYHfi
or...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-Phil...573445?hash=item422c823985:g:t~YAAOSwxB9gbx4J

I think I have a pair of the green 6080WC ones and used them for 5 minutes once.


----------



## Slade01

Galapac said:


> Tell Me you have these because you are going to open a tube museum someday and want one of every 12AU7 tube possible?
> These must be as terrible in the 6080 version.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-pcs-Two-...857777?hash=item5497500971:g:6E0AAOSwzAxeYHfi
> or...
> ...


I cannot believe there is a matching 6080 set, blue printing and all.  Oh dear god.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 11, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Tell Me you have these because you are going to open a tube museum someday and want one of every 12AU7 tube possible?
> These must be as terrible in the 6080 version.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-pcs-Two-...857777?hash=item5497500971:g:6E0AAOSwzAxeYHfi
> or...
> ...


They're in the "crap" tube stash that's in the back of the closet (pic I posted is from an active Ebay listing). Think I have a couple sleeves (5/sleeve) of them.  Bought them a long time ago because IIRC I got both sleeves for like $10.

I haven't ever heard the 6080's...and unlikely I ever will (at least voluntarily ).  I have a couple pairs of 6922's (one green label, one blue) that are fair equals to the 5814's in nastiness. My opinion and nothing more, of course.  BUT I have yet to see anyone anywhere sing praise about these tubes beyond the seller in the Ebay listing I posted above.  And if those 5814's are his favorites, his opinion on tubes couldn't possibly be less worthless (to me).


----------



## bcowen (Apr 11, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> I cannot believe there is a matching 6080 set, blue printing and all.  Oh dear god.


I already feel sorry for the poor sucker that buys them.  Hopefully the USPS will lose or smash them prior to delivery.  A mercy killing, as it were.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> 23 here shortly but am sure that by now we are all branded as old farts by our spouses and normally the recognition committee always have different angle when choosing the trophy recipient lol


25+ here......if the spousal ‘trophy’: (a) is an object, we might recover in due time; (b) is an experience, “deep pockets, short arms” is not an option...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> True and correct on both counts.  The GE 5998 under discussion may be a great sounding tube.  I don't have the confidence to try *ONE *myself, but it may turn out I'm totally wrong about it.  It would be a landmark event (the part about me being wrong), but it *is* possible.


Or you could argue that being wrong would require a long sequence of GE 5998s to sound great and that a random chance exists for one GE 5998 to not sound like crap. 🥸


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> A triumvirate of tube testing.


Et tu(be), bcowe ?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Or you could argue that being wrong would require a long sequence of GE 5998s to sound great and that a random chance exists for one GE 5998 to not sound like crap. 🥸


Some of us will find out soon enough.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Et tu(be), bcowe ?


I was thinking more of the second triumvirate but a great reference none the less.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Some of us will find out soon enough.


If it will turn out a good tube, probably we should nickname it as GE person 😛😛 but I have a strong feeling it’s a Bona Fide GE


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 12, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  That actually wasn't the intent.  Meant more as a snack food while I watch the plot of the movie unfold.


Yeah I know but the popping idea was too tempting not to mention 👹👹


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Yup, just like the ones below.  If anyone has ever wondered exactly what the word "glare" refers to when used as an audio descriptor, grab these and you'll know.  Suggest placing thick towels on both shoulders to keep your shirt from getting blood stains when it starts pouring out of your ears.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUBES-2-ne...991503&hash=item1cf59e15f3:g:4VEAAOSw~bFWMAiw


Those were used for torturing when the person being interrogated is not being responsive under the GE tubes 🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Those were used for torturing when the person being interrogated is not being responsive under the GE tubes 🤣🤣


Wonder of wonders!....a tube that makes GE *g*ood *e*nough....🤪


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Wonder of wonders!....a tube that makes GE *g*ood *e*nough....🤪


ROFL!  Actually, it's a tube that makes solid-state good enough.  Or even preferable.


----------



## JTbbb

LoryWiv said:


> @JTbbb that is a killer tube set. I just received a pair of 1965 Mullard EL34 (branded Lorenz but have the "B" imprint signifying Mullard's Blackburn plant). I'm running them as powers in Feliks Elise with adapters, loving them, euphonic but the antithesis of sloppy as some warmly musical tubes can be. I may like them even better than the excellent GEC KT66 which are great but a bit rolled off on the top end, the EL34 aren't!
> 
> My next quest may be Mullard ECC32 but can't find any that aren't pushing a grand...ouch. Where did you source yours from?
> 
> My next quest may be Mullard ECC32 but can't find any that aren't pushing a grand...ouch. Sometimes differing labels with same internals are less spendy if seller isn't sure what he has so doesn't gouge. Where did you source yours from?


LoryWiv,

There looks to be a good pair ecc32’s on uk eBay, 5 days remaining. Think they will get higher though.


----------



## Paladin79

In looking for info on the GE 5998a, I came across this:

yes it is my opinion that all 5998's sound the same. There are top getter and bottom getter variants but i detect no sonic differences between them. And every 5998 was made by Tung-Sol.

Do note that the GE "5998A" is totally different, basically a relabeled 6AS7GA, and not a 5998 at all.  (SkyLab was the person who stated this.)

Unfortunately I have seen the spec sheet on the 5998A and it has the same gain as a Tung Sol 5998. This fellow also said only Tung Sol built 5998's. 

Sylvania had them as well, the A may designate glass style.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-J...777755?hash=item263d64dd9b:g:wTYAAOSwSTFe4G8m


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 12, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> In looking for info on the GE 5998a, I came across this:
> 
> yes it is my opinion that all 5998's sound the same. There are top getter and bottom getter variants but i detect no sonic differences between them. And every 5998 was made by Tung-Sol.
> 
> ...


came across the following as well
" everyone recommend the Tung Sol 5998 power tube as an upgrade, but looking on eBay there's a 5998 made by General Electric at half the price."
"5998A and 5998 are two different tubes. The 5998 is the one with the low output impedance, it sounds phenomenal on the Crack and opens up a lot of details. The 5998A is a good tube, I have an equivalent, but it's no 5998."
"I would stick with the 6080."
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/7oomma/ge_5998a_vs_tung_sol_5998/


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> So most probably the GE 5998A  is a relabeled 6AS7GA ???


No

Someone stated that and I believe it is inaccurate. I have seen some military versions marked that way but it was a 5998 GE/6as7g....... The GE 5998a has the same specs as Tung Sol 5998's, you need to pay attention to the gain of a tube. 5998's are higher gain than 6AS7G's. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1MP-JAN-59...132949?hash=item2f23536d55:g:08EAAOSwz6pbrGRc

These may be relabeled but they are not the 5998A......


----------



## jonathan c

Caviar for a Woo Audio WA6 (first generation):


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 12, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Caviar for a Woo Audio WA6 (first generation):


What year Melz? I have plenty from the 70's and 80's but anymore I just buy 1963 or older.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> What year Melz? I have plenty from the 70's and 80's but anymore I just buy 1963 or older.


I believe 1979 and 1980...assuming that it is the year indicated on the metal base...


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 12, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I believe 1979 and 1980...assuming that it is the year indicated on the metal base...


Look in the lower right of the Melz logo on the glass to be sure. I have seen some with purple stamps that may or may not indicate year. Some of mine are correct, some are not.  Many of my older ones only have the logo, nothing on the base.


----------



## jonathan c

More photographs:


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 12, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> More photographs:


Yeah, mine with purple lettering on the bottom tend to match up, some are even stamped there with the 1578 as well as month and year of manufacture so yours are most likely 79 and 80, although some of mine from 73 are stamped 74 down below. The logo is not always easy to make out I can see the 79 on one of yours.

I listen to seventies versions when I want mids that are out front, I vary my tubes with listening sessions or moods I suppose.  

I am currently listening to a 1578 from 1958 and a Svetlana power tube from the same year.

Oh and yours have the proper construction, now if you ever come across the same configuration with shiny black plates and no perforations buy them if you can. If you cannot PM me and I will lol.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah, mine with purple lettering on the bottom tend to match up, some are even stamped there with the 1578 as well as month and year of manufacture so yours are most likely 79 and 80, although some of mine from 73 are stamped 74 down below. The logo is not always easy to make out I can see the 79 on one of yours.
> 
> I listen to seventies versions when I want mids that are out front, I vary my tubes with listening sessions or moods I suppose.
> 
> ...


Thank you...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> In looking for info on the GE 5998a, I came across this:
> 
> yes it is my opinion that all 5998's sound the same. There are top getter and bottom getter variants but i detect no sonic differences between them. And every 5998 was made by Tung-Sol.
> 
> ...


Interesting.  The 5998A's that you, Sam, and Frank are getting from the listing you linked sure don't look like any Tung Sol I've seen -- 5998, 6080, or 6AS7.  Not that I've seen every Tung Sol of course, but there should still be _some_ commonalities.  

These come closer, but there are still differences internally between them and the 5998A's you're getting:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6AS7GA-G...edWeb&brand=GE&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851

As always the real proof will be in the listening, so thanks to you guys for taking the plunge to try them out.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 12, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Caviar for a Woo Audio WA6 (first generation):


Sweet!  And I like the wood on your table too.   

Even though I'm not buying any more tubes, I couldn't pass up these '53 Fotons for $12/pair.  He only had 3 pairs left (which is fortunate for my wallet). 

Some day these may be valuable. Or I may get an amp that needs 20 or 30 per channel in which case I'll be set.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 12, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Interesting.  The 5998A's that you, Sam, and Frank are getting from the listing you linked sure don't look like any Tung Sol I've seen -- 5998, 6080, or 6AS7.  Not that I've seen every Tung Sol of course, but there should still be _some_ commonalities.
> 
> These come closer, but there are still differences internally between them and the 5998A's you're getting:
> 
> ...


I was talking about the spec sheets I saw, not so much internals. The one guy could have been right that some were relabeled but the 5998A should be the real deal as far as gain.

6080's and 6as7g's are low gain tubes

5998's and 7236's are medium gain (I do believe the 7236 is the higher of the two.)

There are high gain power tubes but I will not get into those lest @bcowen figures he will try one in an Incubus lol.

Now if a 5998 has the same output level as a 6as7g then that is just wrong.


----------



## FLTWS

I'll plan to visually compare these with my other Inky power tubes to see if I can find a match in construction.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  And I like the wood on your table too.
> 
> Even though I'm not buying any more tubes, I couldn't pass up these '53 Fotons for $12/pair.  He only had 3 pairs left (which is fortunate for my wallet).
> 
> Some day these may be valuable. Or I may get an amp that needs 20 or 30 per channel in which case I'll be set.


The desk is not maple so it probably sounds awful 😆😆.  BTW, for $12/pair, you are not buying the Fotons, you are relieving the seller of the storage burden.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> The desk is not maple so it probably sounds awful 😆😆.  BTW, for $12/pair, you are not buying the Fotons, you are relieving the seller of the storage burden.






I have worked with quarter sawn oak, I have also heard it called tiger oak.

*Tiger oak* is lumber produced by a particular milling process called quarter sawing. The process results in lumber with a distinctive grain that is often used in high-end applications in which the appearance of the wood is an important consideration.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I am currently listening to a 1578 from 1958 and a Svetlana power tube from the same year.
> 
> Oh and yours have the proper construction, now if you ever come across the same configuration with shiny black plates and no perforations buy them if you can. If you cannot PM me and I will lol.


I acted on the following:


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have worked with quarter sawn oak, I have also heard it called tiger oak.
> 
> *Tiger oak* is lumber produced by a particular milling process called quarter sawing. The process results in lumber with a distinctive grain that is often used in high-end applications in which the appearance of the wood is an important consideration.


A beautiful piece of gear!


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> I have worked with quarter sawn oak, I have also heard it called tiger oak.
> 
> *Tiger oak* is lumber produced by a particular milling process called quarter sawing. The process results in lumber with a distinctive grain that is often used in high-end applications in which the appearance of the wood is an important consideration.


Works nice with the patina copper.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> Works nice with the patina copper.


Yeah that was during my steampunk era. If I get good at dovetails, I want to use black walnut and white walnut for similar grain but a great color contrast. I do have copper I can use, maybe just one more steampunk amp.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The desk is not maple so it probably sounds awful 😆😆.  BTW, for $12/pair, you are not buying the Fotons, you are relieving the seller of the storage burden.


Yeah, that's it!  I'm just being helpful (as usual).  I will proceed to pat myself on the back.


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 13, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> came across the following as well
> " everyone recommend the Tung Sol 5998 power tube as an upgrade, but looking on eBay there's a 5998 made by General Electric at half the price."
> "5998A and 5998 are two different tubes. The *5998 is the one with the low output impedance*, it sounds phenomenal on the Crack and opens up a lot of details. The 5998A is a good tube, I have an equivalent, but it's no 5998."
> "I would stick with the 6080."
> https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/7oomma/ge_5998a_vs_tung_sol_5998/


@HTSkywalker per spec. sheets the 5998A has higher transconductance (less plate resistance) then 5998. Clearly my understanding of these specs. is wrong or at least incomplete as I thought that would lead to lower output impedance for the 5998A. What am I missing in understanding the spec. data.?


----------



## Marutks

I have only perforated anode melz tube.   Is solid anode version better?


----------



## FLTWS (Apr 12, 2021)

With regards to 6080's and other equivalent power tubes, I found this in my Tube Related Info folder, comes from a post somewhere here at Head-Fi.


----------



## donato (Apr 12, 2021)

I joined the Melz club recently too based on all of the chatter here and on other sites.  I'm currently running a single 1980 Melz in my Viva Egoista 845 (below) and pair of 1979 Melz in my Cayin HA-300.  I have a bunch of other 6sn7/VT-231/5692/CV1988/VT-99/6f8g, but since I put the Melz in, I haven't been much motivated to swap them out.  I still have some other Melz (some perf some solid) on the way that seem to be taking forever and then just ordered some Fotons for the heck of it.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 12, 2021)

Marutks said:


> I have only perforated anode melz tube.   Is solid anode version better?


To me and most everyone I had try it out lol.  They are rare, but I love the sound. Please remember these have all other traits of what is called the 1578.


----------



## bcowen

donato said:


> I joined the Melz club recently too based on all of the chatter here and on other sites.  I'm currently running a single 1980 Melz in my Viva Egoista 845 (below) and pair of 1979 Melz in my Cayin HA-300.  I have a bunch of other 6sn7/VT-231/5692/CV1988/VT-99/6f8g, but since I put the Melz in, I haven't been much motivated to swap them out.  I still have some other Melz (some perf some solid) on the way that seem to be taking forever and then just ordered some Fotons for the heck of it.


Those are some pretty 845's!  Haven't ever heard the PSVanes....


----------



## donato

bcowen said:


> Those are some pretty 845's!  Haven't ever heard the PSVanes....



Yes, those are the PSVane ACMEs.  I've been very happy with them although the only other 845s I have tried are the stock Shuguang and PSVane Treasure Mk II.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah, that's it!  I'm just being helpful (as usual).  I will proceed continue to pat myself on the back.


----------



## HTSkywalker

LoryWiv said:


> @HTSkywalker per spec. sheets the 5998A has higher transconductance (less plate resistance) then 5998. Clearly my understanding of these specs. is wrong or at least incomplete as I thought that would lead to lower output impedance for the 5998A. What am I missing in understanding the spec. data.?


@Paladin79 is the expert on this


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> @Paladin79 is the expert on this


I will look at the spec sheets as time allows, here are a couple basics.

u = Gm rP

rp = u / gM


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I will look at the spec sheets as time allows, here are a couple basics.
> 
> u = Gm rP
> 
> rp = u / gM


The 5998A is higher gain [5.4], higher transconductance [15,500 umho], and higher plate resistance [350 ohms], than the 6AS7G. Ref Average characteristics, tube data sheet. Deviations will occur dependent upon the operating point of the tube.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 13, 2021)

sam6550a said:


> The 5998A is higher gain [5.4], higher transconductance [15,500 umho], and higher plate resistance [350 ohms], than the 6AS7G. Ref Average characteristics, tube data sheet. Deviations will occur dependent upon the operating point of the tube.


Now I may have to check out the military version since it is marked 6as7g 5998, I really think the "A" version is medium gain vs low gain of the 6as7G. Those who have plugged in power tubes know there can be a substantial difference, the human ear can hear a one db change and there is certainly a change between low and medium gain tubes.

I am having trouble finding the GE 5998 but I did find the Tung Sol version, 5998 gain is 4.8-6.2,   5998A is 5.4.

6AS7G has an amplification factor of 2. 

Here is someone calling a GE 5998A low mu.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998A-Dual...619378?hash=item1c4f2093f2:g:1moAAOSweW5U9snR

GE's spec sheet calls it low mu yet it has the same amplification factor of a Tung Sol, 5.4.

https://www.relltubes.com/filebase/en/src/Datasheets/5998A000.pdf


----------



## Slade01

@Paladin79 Had a Melz question - but open to anyone - do you happen to know the difference in designation between a 6N8M and a 6N8S Melz tubes?


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> @Paladin79 Had a Melz question - but open to anyone - do you happen to know the difference in designation between a 6N8M and a 6N8S Melz tubes?


I want to say the M is a designation for older versions of similar tubes. I own some but they are not the type I seek.


----------



## Paladin79

@sam6550a  received his GE 5998A and an Incubus from me so I may learn something soon about the tube. He definitely said it tested more like a 5998 than a 6AS7G so it is odd the spec sheet said low gain.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> @sam6550a  received his GE 5998A and an Incubus from me so I may learn something soon about the tube. He definitely said it tested more like a 5998 than a 6AS7G so it is odd the spec sheet said low gain.


Awaiting the final verdict on this tube, hope @sam6550a stayed awake all night testing it   and hopefully A/B with a TS 5998


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> Awaiting the final verdict on this tube, hope @sam6550a stayed awake all night testing it   and hopefully A/B with a TS 5998


Testing continues today after I return from the cardiologist. Unfortunately, I do not possess a TS  5998 to compare it to.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> @sam6550a  received his GE 5998A and an Incubus from me so I may learn something soon about the tube. He definitely said it tested more like a 5998 than a 6AS7G so it is odd the spec sheet said low gain.


Here is the GE 5998A spec sheet.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 15, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Awaiting the final verdict on this tube, hope @sam6550a stayed awake all night testing it   and hopefully A/B with a TS 5998


I would be getting the GE tube soon and I do have several Tung Sol 5998’s.  I should be able to compare the two tubes in identical Incubus amps.

My 6sn7's will be matching 1958 Melz solid plate 1578's.  Naturally I will monitor and match volume levels and use appropriate switch boxes going to Focal Utopias. I will run a full battery of tests and end up for a score for each. My wife will change the power tubes around and cover both with a box so I will not know which tube is which going in.  I will score both.


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> I would be getting the GE tube soon and I do have several Tung Sol 5998’s.  I should be able to compare the two tubes in identical Incubus amps.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 15, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I would be getting the GE tube soon and I do have several Tung Sol 5998’s.  I should be able to compare the two tubes in identical Incubus amps.
> 
> My 6sn7's will be matching 1958 Melz solid plate 1578's.  Naturally I will monitor and match volume levels and use appropriate switch boxes going to Focal Utopias. I will run a full battery of tests and end up for a score for each. My wife will change the power tubes around and cover both with a box so I will not know which tube is which going in.  I will score both.


Thought you will configure both Incubus at hand with the same Pre-Amp tube (Melz), one with the GE 5998A and another with the TS 5998 in the Power section and a switch box to have the Utopia plugged to. 🙂 Your wife would only have to plug each Incubus input to the switch box without telling you which went where.
Let us know once you conclude the testing and make sure not to burn Mrs. @Paladin79 fingers coz all your work in the shed will account for nothing 😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Thought you will configure both Incubus at hand with the same Power tube, one with the GE and another with the TS in the Pre-amp and a switch box to have the Utopia plugged to. 🙂 Your wife would only have to plug each Incubus input to the switch box without telling you which went where.
> Let us know once you conclude the testing and make sure not to burn Mrs. @Paladin79 fingers coz all your work in the shed will account for nothing 😂😂😂


Ok now I am confused lol.  The GE and TS are power tubes, the 5998's, I will use the same driver tubes, the Melz I mentioned. They are well balanced over their entire spectrum IMHO.  The power tubes can be changed and hidden cold, covered, and I can still adjust power out on each amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 15, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Ok now I am confused lol.  The GE and TS are power tubes, the 5998's, I will use the same driver tubes, the Melz I mentioned. They are well balanced over their entire spectrum IMHO.  The power tubes can be changed and hidden cold, covered, and I can still adjust power out on each amp.


My bad, I am the confused party. Just having a day around here. Will correct my post lol.
Corrected 😎😎


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> My bad, I am the confused party. Just having a day around here. Will correct my post lol.
> Corrected 😎😎


Not a problem.


----------



## JTbbb

Blimey, those Mullard ecc32’s on eBay uk fetched a high price!


----------



## S0undJunk1e

What are some real good NOS 6SN7 that are actually still available?   I've gone looking for all the classics  (VT231 and the like) and I can't seem to find anything.   Are there some lesser known 'hidden gems' out there that are still around for purchase?


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 19, 2021)

S0undJunk1e said:


> What are some real good NOS 6SN7 that are actually still available?   I've gone looking for all the classics  (VT231 and the like) and I can't seem to find anything.   Are there some lesser known 'hidden gems' out there that are still around for purchase?


6SN7s such as RCA 5692, CBS/Hytron 5692 are there, are sometimes tough to locate, and are definitely $$$. Is your “anything” absolute or does it mean “anything reasonable?” If the latter, what is your budget per tube? Another route is to use 7N7 tubes with 7N7 (top) -> 6SN7 (bottom) adapters. The 7N7s can run up to $50 per tube as far as I have seen*. The adapters, up to $60 each depending on build.

* I have yet to come across Lansdale (Philco) 7N7s....


----------



## FLTWS

My 5998A's arrived. Adding them to my collection of Inky tubes including 6SN7 variants for drivers as well as other power tubes is in good shape with the addition of these 2 new ones.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> My 5998A's arrived. Adding them to my collection of Inky tubes including 6SN7 variants for drivers as well as other power tubes is in good shape with the addition of these 2 new ones.


Now Ripper needs to get his tube and that will make four of us. Frank writes wonderful reviews so I am looking forward to his input.


----------



## S0undJunk1e (Apr 19, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> 6SN7s such as RCA 5692, CBS/Hytron 5692 are there, are sometimes tough to locate, and are definitely $$$. Is your “anything” absolute or does it mean “anything reasonable?” If the latter, what is your budget per tube? Another route is to use 7N7 tubes with 7N7 (top) -> 6SN7 (bottom) adapters. The 7N7s can run up to $50 per tube as far as I have seen*. The adapters, up to $60 each depending on build.
> 
> * I have yet to come across Lansdale (Philco) 7N7s....


Let's say $225 per tube,  assuming they aren't overpriced.  I'd like to have the best (not necessarily best of the best, trying to get close).  I did see the hytrons, but wasn't sure if they were worth that price.   I'm also worried about tube life on the 5692 given how much they cost.  using these in a feliks elise.


----------



## jonathan c

S0undJunk1e said:


> Let's say $225 per tube,  assuming they aren't overpriced.  I'd like to have the best (not necessarily best of the best, trying to get close).  I did see the hytrons, but wasn't sure if they were worth that price.   I'm also worried about tube life on the 5692 given how much they cost.  using these in a feliks elise.


For consideration (and I have been a repeat customer of theirs for 5692 and other items):


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> For consideration (and I have been a repeat customer of theirs for 5692 and other items):





S0undJunk1e said:


> Let's say $225 per tube,  assuming they aren't overpriced.  I'd like to have the best (not necessarily best of the best, trying to get close).  I did see the hytrons, but wasn't sure if they were worth that price.   I'm also worried about tube life on the 5692 given how much they cost.  using these in a feliks elise.


I want to say 5692's are 10,000 hour tubes, they should last longer than standard 6sn7's.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 19, 2021)

I think the 5692's 10,000 hour life expectancy may be a questionable claim.  Here's a snip from the 6SN7 reference thread...




> *Some words on tube reliability:*
> 
> To ensure good tube reliability you should probably run a tube at 70% or less of its maximum plate dissipation.
> 
> ...


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I want to say 5692's are 10,000 hour tubes, they should last longer than standard 6sn7's.


Reading some of the commentary, history & literature about the CBS and RCA 5692s, I encountered quite a few references to reliability and ruggedness as necessary for military use.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I think the 5692's 10,000 hour life expectancy may be a questionable claim.  Here's a snip from the 6SN7 reference thread...


 One addendum to that - it seems RCA purposely under-rated the 5692 to be able to claim that it is a 10,000 hour tube in their marketing of the tube, so it is possible (but not certain) that it is quite safe at higher voltages...of course it won't be a 10,000 hour tube then (if it ever really was)...but you are quite right that people should check their plate voltage because not all 6SN7's are equal, and many manufacturers use very high voltages on the 6SN7 (GTA for example) in the belief that higher voltages make the tube more "exciting" sounding.
Since the 5692 was introduced in the late 40's, it can probably be used as a 6SN7GT as it can possibly handle that rating, but it is very unlikely to survive long used as a 6SN7GTA or GTB.

It depends on how it is run and in what equipment. Using it in a circuit designed for 6sn7's does make a difference.


----------



## FLTWS

jonathan c said:


> For consideration (and I have been a repeat customer of theirs for 5692 and other items):


I paid $150.00 for Platinum Grade back in 4/2018 when I bought 1 of these as I was starting to tube (and wallet) roll with LYR3, found my e-mail receipt. 
I started with Upscale back in May 2016 with 6922's when I bought my MJ2 (now a collectible ).
I've done a good number of purchases with Upscale and  with Brent Jesse over the years.


----------



## bcowen (Apr 19, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> * I have yet to come across Lansdale (Philco) 7N7s....


Looks like some super-jerk bought them all.   

But all is not lost....it's the internal configuration that separates these from the usual fare: tall bottle with getter flashing that covers 1/3rd to 1/2 of the inside of the bottle, opposed T-plates, and most importantly fully oval (racetrack) micas at the top and bottom.  I have these with GE, Raytheon, Hytron, and Sylvania branding as well.  Different logo, same tube.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It depends on how it is run and in what equipment.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

I don't think I've ever had a component using 6SN7's that put 250v to the plates.  90v - 150v is by far more normal. 

To @S0undJunk1e : see if you can find out what plate voltage the Elise is running on the 6SN7's.  If it's 150v (or less), the 5692's should be just fine and last quite a long time.


----------



## Galapac

Has anyone tried 7A4/7B4 tubes with adapter into a 6SN7 socket?
There are a lot of good, cheap tubes of this kind out there and was wondering if anyone tried these with any good results or is it an audiophile dead end?


----------



## bcowen (Apr 19, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Has anyone tried 7A4/7B4 tubes with adapter into a 6SN7 socket?
> There are a lot of good, cheap tubes of this kind out there and was wondering if anyone tried these with any good results or is it an audiophile dead end?


Yup.  7A4's anyway, which is basically 1/2 of a 7N7.  Never tried 7B4's....5x the amplification factor of a 6SN7 or 7N7 might be an issue depending on the amp.  Paired up with a Tung Sol 5998, these round plate Hytrons (no CBS, _just_ Hytron) are my mostest favoritest as of 4/19/21  for rock and metal.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Yup.  7A4's anyway, which is basically 1/2 of a 7N7.  Never tried 7B4's....5x the amplification factor of a 6SN7 or 7N7 might be an issue depending on the amp.  Paired up with a Tung Sol 5998, these round plate Hytrons (no CBS, _just_ Hytron) are my mostest favoritest as of 4/19/21  for rock and metal.


Thanks Bill. So you really are a rocker, eh? I thought the Marilyn references were an inside joke but now I guess not. Well consider yourself in a great group for I am as well but will listen to anything with a great hook.


----------



## S0undJunk1e

Ripper2860 said:


> I think the 5692's 10,000 hour life expectancy may be a questionable claim.  Here's a snip from the 6SN7 reference thread...


This is exactly what I read,  and why I was concerned about the 5692


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 19, 2021)

I wouldn't be concerned.  It's really a very good tube.  I have the Hytron and it pairs nicely with my OTL amp.  The synergy just was not there with my Lyr 3, but there are many amps and preamp pairings that draw rave reviews for the 5692s.  I only wanted to state that the 10,000  hour (approx. 2x a typical 6SN7GT) may be a bit of a stretch.  There should be no issues using it in an amp designed for 6SN7s.


----------



## Galapac

5692s can be used in 6SJ7 sockets, I never used them in 6SN7 sockets.


----------



## Ripper2860

Myself and many others have used 5692 with 6SN7 amps/preamps -- Freya+, Lyr 3, Incubus, Saga, Darkvoice, etc.  Heck @bcowen told me a Hytron 5692 with a 6SN7->6922 adapter was the best tube pairing ever with his Vali!


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 19, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Looks like some super-jerk bought them all.
> _Hmm........@bcow7n7......_


All is not lost...just in his closet....


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Thanks Bill. So you really are a rocker, eh? I thought the Marilyn references were an inside joke but now I guess not. Well consider yourself in a great group for I am as well but will listen to anything with a great hook.


Definitely a rocker.  The Manson is an occasional departure, but as it seems to have grown a life of its own I don't want to spoil the fun.      But I love classical too (mostly full symphony stuff) and a blues addict too.  About the only thing I just can't listen to is rap...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Myself and many others have used 5692 with 6SN7 amps/preamps -- Freya+, Lyr 3, Incubus, Saga, Darkvoice, etc.  Heck @bcowen told me a Hytron 5692 with a 6SN7->6922 adapter was the best tube pairing ever with his Vali!


Oh please.  I told you a 6528 was the best in the Vali 2.  The 5 amps of heater current draw don't cause any transformer smoke for at least 2 minutes.  

But seriously, the Franken 7N7 *is* my current fave in the Vali 2.  The CBS/Hytron 5692 was a favorite in several different pieces of Cary gear (and sounds quite nice in the Incubus), but wasn't all that impressive (to me) in the Schiit hybrid amps I've had (Vali 2 and Lyr 3).


----------



## Galapac (Apr 19, 2021)

Sorry, I was thinking 5693, off by one digit, RCA reds used in 6SJ7 sockets.
Those are rated 10,000 hr as well (lower voltage) so got confused.
Yes, I also have a 5692 RCA/GE hybrid that I have used in a 6SN7 in the DV with adequate results.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> but wasn't all that impressive (to me) in the Schiit hybrid amps I've had (Vali 2 and Lyr 3).


You also told me the B&K 500 tester you sold me was your favorite and was much better than the over-rated Hickok models.   Was that  lie too?


----------



## Paladin79

You have to understand that circuits are designed for specific tubes, when you start plugging them into amps designed for other tubes they may not last as long as their original designs. You can get away with some substitutions but to say it is something lacking in the tube makes little sense or they are not living up to their original purpose. I have to stop people all the time from plugging tubes into my amps because the pins match up or they read somewhere the tube might work. 🥴 It is like saying my Cadillac engine does not perform properly in my Volkswagen. 😺


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You have to understand that circuits are designed for specific tubes, when you start plugging them into amps designed for other tubes they may not last as long as their original designs. You can get away with some substitutions but to say it is something lacking in the tube makes little sense or they are not living up to their original purpose. I have to stop people all the time from plugging tubes into my amps because the pins match up or they read somewhere the tube might work. 🥴 It is like saying my Cadillac engine does not perform properly in my Volkswagen. 😺


Or that @bcowen’s home cardboard construction will survive a midsummer rain...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You also told me the B&K 500 tester you sold me was your favorite and was much better than the over-rated Hickok models.   Was that  lie too?


When did you get a B&K?   You holding out on us?  I thought $3500 was a totally fair price for this one when I sold it to you. I even cleaned the sockets, you ingrate.


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 20, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> You have to understand that circuits are designed for specific tubes, when you start plugging them into amps designed for other tubes they may not last as long as their original designs. You can get away with some substitutions but to say it is something lacking in the tube makes little sense or they are not living up to their original purpose. I have to stop people all the time from plugging tubes into my amps because the pins match up or they read somewhere the tube might work. 🥴 It is like saying my Cadillac engine does not perform properly in my Volkswagen. 😺


Points very well-taken Tom. I do enjoy trying non-standard tubes in Elise BUT first review the data sheets as best as my limited knowledge allows, and generally only try alternatives other head-fi'ers have had success with. With prices of 6080's and 6SN7 top tier rising this does open up some less spendy alternatives, and results can be excellent. I do think the Melz '63 6SN7 you sent my way are superb (BTW how are the '56's, some appeared recently on Ebay at decent prices?) and some of the Sylvanias (VT-231 for example) remain a good value.

Currently installed are Mullard EL34's driven by Sylvania VT-115A's, adapters from @Deyan. There is a small bit of hum that is inaudible with most music, and the powers run cooler than my other favorite GEC 6080 which sounded great with the Melz '63.

Bottom line: It's nice to have options and I am enjoying the sound with EL34 / VT-115A tube set.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 20, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Points very well-taken Tom. I do enjoy trying non-standard tubes in Elise BUT first review the data sheets as best as my limited knowledge allows, and generally only try alternatives other head-fi'ers have had success with. With prices of 6080's and 6SN7 top tier rising this does open up some less spendy alternatives, and results can be excellent. I do think the Melz '63 6SN7 you sent my way are superb (BTW how are the '56's, some appeared recently on Ebay at decent prices?) and some of the Sylvanias (VT-231 for example) remain a good value.
> 
> Currently installed are Mullard EL34's driven by Sylvania VT-115A's, adapters from @Deyan. There is a small bit of hum that is inaudible with most music, and the powers run cooler than my other favorite GEC 6080 which sounded great with the Melz '63.
> 
> Bottom line: It's nice to have options and I am enjoying the sound with EL34 / VT-115A tube set.


I have a friend who has a large cache of NOS  RCA 5692’s, I am going to make at least two pre-amps based on those. He knows I will set them up properly and those are the tubes that will stay in them. I will receive extra tubes for the work so I will always have spares.

I would have to see the 1956 version of the Melz, I have some from that time period but I am not so sure I have one with the same structure as the 1963's, I do have a 1954 perforated plate that has mica supports at the top. Amazingly enough it is a decent tube but I have not run it through all my usual tests yet. It is in the queue though. PM me a link if you can and I will check it out, I am trying to add all the variations of the older Melz I can find to my collection. I even have a line on some of my favorite 1958's but I have not received photos yet.

Soon I hope to hook up a quad of 1963 Melz like you have for power tube testing, the are one of the highest rated tubes I can or could find in abundance.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 20, 2021)

Listening to a 1954 Melz with perforated plates, power tube is a GE 5998A.

The Melz holds it own, a different sound that the classic 1578 but a few steps above Fotons. 😺 I apologize for the cat hair between tubes, Finnegan was warming himself by the tubes earlier.


----------



## Itzi

Hello! Im a total tube noob and just getting into this hobby for fun, and I got a Little Dot Mk2 and purchased a pair of matched 6SN7's with adaptors. I got this pair because they were matched pretty well as far as I could tell (2600gm & 2700gm), and they were local at a good price. I've been enjoying these with some NOS Voskhod's (trying these after the Mullards in the pic) , and as I look more into tubes I want to ask if my tubes being from different generations (50's and 60's I assume, reading the original post) is bad in some way. I dont really notice any channel imbalance or anything, but if its a good idea to buy a more exact matching tube I would like to know!


----------



## Paladin79

Itzi said:


> Hello! Im a total tube noob and just getting into this hobby for fun, and I got a Little Dot Mk2 and purchased a pair of matched 6SN7's with adaptors. I got this pair because they were matched pretty well as far as I could tell (2600gm & 2700gm), and they were local at a good price. I've been enjoying these with some NOS Voskhod's (trying these after the Mullards in the pic) , and as I look more into tubes I want to ask if my tubes being from different generations (50's and 60's I assume, reading the original post) is bad in some way. I dont really notice any channel imbalance or anything, but if its a good idea to buy a more exact matching tube I would like to know!


If you do not hear any imbalance you are fine. If I match tubes I try to get within 10% but 5% is even better.


----------



## Itzi

Paladin79 said:


> If you do not hear any imbalance you are fine. If I match tubes I try to get within 10% but 5% is even better.


Okay, good to know! Was just reading that there were slight differences in the sound of the chrome-top and the yellow label 6SN7s according to some people, and was wondering if that might be affecting what I hear in some way that I dont notice


----------



## Paladin79

Itzi said:


> Okay, good to know! Was just reading that there were slight differences in the sound of the chrome-top and the yellow label 6SN7s according to some people, and was wondering if that might be affecting what I hear in some way that I dont notice


I hope your amp never needs repair, I fixed one a few months back and I spent more time just getting it apart than trouble shooting it lol and I have considerable experience with such things.


----------



## Slade01

Itzi said:


> Okay, good to know! Was just reading that there were slight differences in the sound of the chrome-top and the yellow label 6SN7s according to some people, and was wondering if that might be affecting what I hear in some way that I dont notice


If it sounds good to you, I wouldnt worry about it!


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Listening to a 1954 Melz with perforated plates, power tube is a GE 5998A.
> 
> The Melz holds it own, a different sound that the classic 1578 but a few steps above Fotons. 😺 I apologize for the cat hair between tubes, Finnegan was warming himself by the tubes earlier.


How did Finnegan enjoy the GE 5998A, scornful and dismissive of the brand as discerning cats can be, or enjoying a surprising new flavor of musical catnip?


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 21, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> How did Finnegan enjoy the GE 5998A, scornful and dismissive of the brand as discerning cats can be, or enjoying a surprising new flavor of musical catnip?


Finnegan was mostly trying to stay warm lol, it snowed here last night and got down to 28 degrees.  All my amps are Class A with the exception of a Mjolnir I have running in the same rack so they do put out some heat. I use open headphones so he normally hears the music, if I had to guess I would say his opinion of the GE was similar to my own.     

After today I will have collected eleven opinions on the GE, we did hit a snag and I need to try to resolve that for one gentleman who writes wonderful reviews of audio gear,  It may be late next week because I value his opinion. I may also have a better idea why a gentleman from Brazil disliked the tube after I examine two more of them.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan was mostly trying to stay warm lol, it snowed here last night and got down to 28 degrees.  All my amps are Class A with the exception of a Mjolnir I have running in the same rack so they do put out some heat. I use open headphones so he normally hears the music, if I had to guess I would say his opinion of the GE was similar to my own.


Did you ask Finnegan? And, if I had to guess, Finnegan has a wider high frequency hearing range than us: ==> more sensitive to presence, if any, of odd harmonics...


----------



## S0undJunk1e

LoryWiv said:


> Points very well-taken Tom. I do enjoy trying non-standard tubes in Elise BUT first review the data sheets as best as my limited knowledge allows, and generally only try alternatives other head-fi'ers have had success with. With prices of 6080's and 6SN7 top tier rising this does open up some less spendy alternatives, and results can be excellent. I do think the Melz '63 6SN7 you sent my way are superb (BTW how are the '56's, some appeared recently on Ebay at decent prices?) and some of the Sylvanias (VT-231 for example) remain a good value.
> 
> Currently installed are Mullard EL34's driven by Sylvania VT-115A's, adapters from @Deyan. There is a small bit of hum that is inaudible with most music, and the powers run cooler than my other favorite GEC 6080 which sounded great with the Melz '63.
> 
> Bottom line: It's nice to have options and I am enjoying the sound with EL34 / VT-115A tube set.


Pardon my noobiosity, but is the EL34 a common swap out on the Elise?   Any risks or downsides to the swap? There seems to be way more of them than the 6AS7.


----------



## LoryWiv

S0undJunk1e said:


> Pardon my noobiosity, but is the EL34 a common swap out on the Elise?   Any risks or downsides to the swap? There seems to be way more of them than the 6AS7.


None that I've encountered, feel free to PM me if you have specific questions about 6SN7 vs. EL34 in Elise.


----------



## jonathan c

Some mail is better than others 😃:


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Some mail is better than others 😃:


Be even sweeter if those are tall bottle Frankies.  Haven't yet seen one with an RCA label, but you never know.


----------



## jonathan c

They are not of the “tall” variety but they do have the smoked glass. [ I really like the RCA smoked glass 6SN7GT in the Woo WA6 / Woo WA22 - excited to put the 7N7s in play. The adapters are standing by... ]


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> They are not of the “tall” variety but they do have the smoked glass. [ I really like the RCA smoked glass 6SN7GT in the Woo WA6 / Woo WA22 - excited to put the 7N7s in play. The adapters are standing by... ]


Be interested to hear how those sound.  I have a few gray glass tall bottles, but no RCA's.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Be interested to hear how those sound.  I have a few gray glass tall bottles, but no RCA's.


I will post. I will use the RCA 7N7s with Woo adapters versus CBS/Hytron 5692s with Woo adapters. The music will be acoustic jazz / R&B* on 2-3 CDs that I know almost by rote. The rest of the gear: Audiolab 6000-CDT, Mojo Audio EVO Mystique DAC, Woo Audio WA6, Norne Vykari hp cable, ZMF Auteur; accessories: Furman Elite 15i power conditioner, Morrow Audio / Furutech cables. [*Sorry, no Manson or Cardboard Cowboys]


----------



## Rensek

Evening, Im hoping some of you fine folks can share some knowledge. Im looking for a variety of 6SN7 tubes that DO NOT have strong bass. 

Ive got some Focal Clears and they play better with my less bassey tubes. I had a tung sol in tonight that sounded kinda crappy with my HD6XXS but sounded great with the clears. I want strong/forward vocals, fleshed out mids and clear and clean treble. 

Thanks in advance... and I have no prejudice over GE tubes..... Sorry Bill...


----------



## LoryWiv

Rensek said:


> Evening, Im hoping some of you fine folks can share some knowledge. Im looking for a variety of 6SN7 tubes that DO NOT have strong bass.
> 
> Ive got some Focal Clears and they play better with my less bassey tubes. I had a tung sol in tonight that sounded kinda crappy with my HD6XXS but sounded great with the clears. I want strong/forward vocals, fleshed out mids and clear and clean treble.
> 
> Thanks in advance... and I have no prejudice over GE tubes..... Sorry Bill...


I have found Sylvania 6SN7 or VT-231 to be very musical, mid forward with sweet treble, whilst a bit less bass quantity than RCA, Ken Rad...


----------



## Slade01

Rensek said:


> Evening, Im hoping some of you fine folks can share some knowledge. Im looking for a variety of 6SN7 tubes that DO NOT have strong bass.
> 
> Ive got some Focal Clears and they play better with my less bassey tubes. I had a tung sol in tonight that sounded kinda crappy with my HD6XXS but sounded great with the clears. I want strong/forward vocals, fleshed out mids and clear and clean treble.
> 
> Thanks in advance... and I have no prejudice over GE tubes..... Sorry Bill...



I've found the Raytheon VT-231 to be a very mid forward tube.  Also the Brimar 6SN7GT to be in this side of the spectrum as well.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 23, 2021)

Rensek said:


> Evening, Im hoping some of you fine folks can share some knowledge. Im looking for a variety of 6SN7 tubes that DO NOT have strong bass.
> 
> Ive got some Focal Clears and they play better with my less bassey tubes. I had a tung sol in tonight that sounded kinda crappy with my HD6XXS but sounded great with the clears. I want strong/forward vocals, fleshed out mids and clear and clean treble.
> 
> Thanks in advance... and I have no prejudice over GE tubes..... Sorry Bill...


https://www.ebay.com/itm/353461870125?hash=item524bf81e2d:g:eXMAAOSwnUFgagav

I cannot make out the date on this Melz 1578 but I own these from the 50's to the 80's and they have a tight accurate bass and the mids can be their greatest blessing.  This is cheap compared to most you will find, and used, thus the price. Do not jump in and buy any Melz without checking with me first, you really have to know what to watch for and Russians are trying to sell lesser versions for similar money. Once I get caught up on other projects I can send you samples to try. Treble is wonderful with my Utopias and my favorites are from 1958-1963 but the 69 is quite decent. Later years the mids are much more in your face IMHO.


----------



## S0undJunk1e

LoryWiv said:


> None that I've encountered, feel free to PM me if you have specific questions about 6SN7 vs. EL34 in Elise.


Is there a better power tube option for the elise besides the 6AS7/6080?  I thought the EL34 was a power tube swap.  I sense a long learning curve ahead....


----------



## Paladin79

S0undJunk1e said:


> Is there a better power tube option for the elise besides the 6AS7/6080?  I thought the EL34 was a power tube swap.  I sense a long learning curve ahead....


Tung Sol 5998's are very good but pricey.


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 23, 2021)

S0undJunk1e said:


> Is there a better power tube option for the elise besides the 6AS7/6080?  I thought the EL34 was a power tube swap.  I sense a long learning curve ahead....


Yes, I have EL34's in power slot now (they can work in either but this is the more natural position for them). Remember they require an adapter. @Deyan  can make them if you reach out.


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 23, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I will post. I will use the RCA 7N7s with Woo adapters versus CBS/Hytron 5692s with Woo adapters. The music will be acoustic jazz / R&B* on 2-3 CDs that I know almost by rote. The rest of the gear: Audiolab 6000-CDT, Mojo Audio EVO Mystique DAC, Woo Audio WA6, Norne Vykari hp cable, ZMF Auteur; accessories: Furman Elite 15i power conditioner, Morrow Audio / Furutech cables. [*Sorry, no Manson or Cardboard Cowboys]


In this corner, “wooing” in with the brown trunks (and the white adapters) to face the opponents in the metal trunks...(to be continued...):



  After a few hours of listening to the smoked-glass RCA 7N7s and the CBS 5692s, the latter entering the comparison as my favourite "6SN7" tube, I am impressed with the RCAs. They conveyed the atmosphere and essence of the musical performance with a well-balanced tonality and a captivating rendition of space. The bass / midbass of the RCAs was full, rich and "round" (like acoustic bass strings) - a little more so than the CBSs. In this respect, I thought of the Sennheiser HD650 versus the Sennheiser HD600. The CBS' bass extends somewhat deeper and does not have that extra "warmth".
  Moving up the frequency range to the lower 44 keys of the piano, played by the inimitable "Red" Garland (remember: the music used was jazz / R&B), the RCAs did a tremendous job: the hammer strike, the note, the decay, Red's block chording were done RIGHT. The CBSs excelled in this area, too, with a little more 'detail' - as if I were sitting a few feet closer. Within the upper 44 keys, the RCAs continued their wonderful rendition of note blending into overtone and, in Motown fashion, tried a little tenderness (softness). The CBS rendition here was not "hard" in comparison but "crystalline" (my best adjective to describe clarity without coolness).
  As for vocals, the duet of Stephanie Mills and Teddy Pendergrass was delivered in sublime fashion by both the RCAs and the CBSs. Diction, throatiness, chest movement of air were, to my ears, in the right proportion. With the CBSs, I felt that the singers were a bit closer to the microphone. The CBSs conveyed a little more of the studio reverb, if used, in the recordings. I had the same impression with percussion - the transients, drum skin tones, sticks versus brushes were all there: the 'impact' or dynamic range was a bit greater with the CBSs. (Bad analogy warning:  if the CBSs were presenting 90-degree square waves, the RCAs were presenting 89-degree square waves).
  In all, I am very pleased with, and happy to own, the smoked-glass RCA 7N7s. The CBS (Hytron) 5692 is still my favourite in the 6SN7 clan. As for the RCAs versus the CBSs, it is not versus :  the RCAs for a "relaxing" listen, the CBSs for an "involving" listen - both give me musical joy. Lest I forget (?), the RCAs were only $25 each while the CBSs were $195 each !!


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 23, 2021)

( see post above )


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 24, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> In this corner, “wooing” in with the brown trunks (and the white adapters) to face the opponents in the metal trunks...(to be continued...):
> After a few hours of listening to the smoked-glass RCA 7N7s and the CBS 5692s, the latter entering the comparison as my favourite "6SN7" tube, I am impressed with the RCAs. They conveyed the atmosphere and essence of the musical performance with a well-balanced tonality and a captivating rendition of space. The bass / midbass of the RCAs was full, rich and "round" (like acoustic bass strings) - a little more so than the CBSs. In this respect, I thought of the Sennheiser HD650 versus the Sennheiser HD600. The CBS' bass extends somewhat deeper and does not have that extra "warmth".
> Moving up the frequency range to the lower 44 keys of the piano, played by the inimitable "Red" Garland (remember: the music used was jazz / R&B), the RCAs did a tremendous job: the hammer strike, the note, the decay, Red's block chording were done RIGHT. The CBSs excelled in this area, too, with a little more 'detail' - as if I were sitting a few feet closer. Within the upper 44 keys, the RCAs continued their wonderful rendition of note blending into overtone and, in Motown fashion, tried a little tenderness (softness). The CBS rendition here was not "hard" in comparison but "crystalline" (my best adjective to describe clarity without coolness).
> As for vocals, the duet of Stephanie Mills and Teddy Pendergrass was delivered in sublime fashion by both the RCAs and the CBSs. Diction, throatiness, chest movement of air were, to my ears, in the right proportion. With the CBSs, I felt that the singers were a bit closer to the microphone. The CBSs conveyed a little more of the studio reverb, if used, in the recordings. I had the same impression with percussion - the transients, drum skin tones, sticks versus brushes were all there: the 'impact' or dynamic range was a bit greater with the CBSs. (Bad analogy warning:  if the CBSs were presenting 90-degree square waves, the RCAs were presenting 89-degree square waves).
> In all, I am very pleased with, and happy to own, the smoked-glass RCA 7N7s. The CBS (Hytron) 5692 is still my favourite in the 6SN7 clan. As for the RCAs versus the CBSs, it is not versus :  the RCAs for a "relaxing" listen, the CBSs for an "involving" listen - both give me musical joy. Lest I forget (?), the RCAs were only $25 each while the CBSs were $195 each !!


Very well said and I like the square wave analogy. I still use a square wave in testing amps using an old Tektronics scope whose calibration is spot on. I am a firm believer in a combination of testing and listening, definitely not just one or the other.


----------



## Paladin79

Today I am modifying an OTL amp for a gentleman from Chicago. This is a prototype and while most of the measurements were decent it sounded pretty lifeless when I got it. I will not go into circuitry changes but he was wanting more bass. So after my adjustments I put in a 52 Foton and various power tubes. The gain of the 5998 helped drastically, and one power tube I own really beefed up the bass and mids.


----------



## Itzi

jonathan c said:


> In this corner, “wooing” in with the brown trunks (and the white adapters) to face the opponents in the metal trunks...(to be continued...):
> After a few hours of listening to the smoked-glass RCA 7N7s and the CBS 5692s, the latter entering the comparison as my favourite "6SN7" tube, I am impressed with the RCAs. They conveyed the atmosphere and essence of the musical performance with a well-balanced tonality and a captivating rendition of space. The bass / midbass of the RCAs was full, rich and "round" (like acoustic bass strings) - a little more so than the CBSs. In this respect, I thought of the Sennheiser HD650 versus the Sennheiser HD600. The CBS' bass extends somewhat deeper and does not have that extra "warmth".
> Moving up the frequency range to the lower 44 keys of the piano, played by the inimitable "Red" Garland (remember: the music used was jazz / R&B), the RCAs did a tremendous job: the hammer strike, the note, the decay, Red's block chording were done RIGHT. The CBSs excelled in this area, too, with a little more 'detail' - as if I were sitting a few feet closer. Within the upper 44 keys, the RCAs continued their wonderful rendition of note blending into overtone and, in Motown fashion, tried a little tenderness (softness). The CBS rendition here was not "hard" in comparison but "crystalline" (my best adjective to describe clarity without coolness).
> As for vocals, the duet of Stephanie Mills and Teddy Pendergrass was delivered in sublime fashion by both the RCAs and the CBSs. Diction, throatiness, chest movement of air were, to my ears, in the right proportion. With the CBSs, I felt that the singers were a bit closer to the microphone. The CBSs conveyed a little more of the studio reverb, if used, in the recordings. I had the same impression with percussion - the transients, drum skin tones, sticks versus brushes were all there: the 'impact' or dynamic range was a bit greater with the CBSs. (Bad analogy warning:  if the CBSs were presenting 90-degree square waves, the RCAs were presenting 89-degree square waves).
> In all, I am very pleased with, and happy to own, the smoked-glass RCA 7N7s. The CBS (Hytron) 5692 is still my favourite in the 6SN7 clan. As for the RCAs versus the CBSs, it is not versus :  the RCAs for a "relaxing" listen, the CBSs for an "involving" listen - both give me musical joy. Lest I forget (?), the RCAs were only $25 each while the CBSs were $195 each !!


Awesome write-up and lovely picture. As for the adaptors, what do you mean when you say "woo adaptors", are those a certain brand? I've heard a little talk about different adaptors being different quality, but I dont know how valuable it would be for me to upgrade the ones I use in my Little Dot from the cheap chinese ones to something more expensive.


----------



## jonathan c

Itzi said:


> Awesome write-up and lovely picture. As for the adaptors, what do you mean when you say "woo adaptors", are those a certain brand? I've heard a little talk about different adaptors being different quality, but I dont know how valuable it would be for me to upgrade the ones I use in my Little Dot from the cheap chinese ones to something more expensive.


Thank you kindly. The Woo adapters are the white ones in the photograph. They are made by Woo Audio. The Woo adapters have specific applications: to fit in ‘6DE7’ and ‘13DE7’ sockets in their WA6 headphone amplifiers. While Woo Audio has other adapters of the same dimensions with different conversions, I cannot say whether they would fit in the Little Dot.


----------



## Itzi

Been looking at people talking about the 7N7 and Im interested in trying out a pair. I know I need an adaptor to make it work in an 6SN7 socket, but I already use an adaptor to use the 6SN7 in my LD. I found a 7N7 to 6CG7 adaptor on ebay which would let me connect it directly to the LD, but it would be over 35 dollars for a pair. Is there anything else I can do, or is there a cheaper place to get an adaptor like that other than ebay?


----------



## jonathan c

Itzi said:


> Been looking at people talking about the 7N7 and Im interested in trying out a pair. I know I need an adaptor to make it work in an 6SN7 socket, but I already use an adaptor to use the 6SN7 in my LD. I found a 7N7 to 6CG7 adaptor on ebay which would let me connect it directly to the LD, but it would be over 35 dollars for a pair. Is there anything else I can do, or is there a cheaper place to get an adaptor like that other than ebay?


Those EBay adapters look like the simplest and least costly solution.


----------



## LoryWiv

Itzi said:


> Been looking at people talking about the 7N7 and Im interested in trying out a pair. I know I need an adaptor to make it work in an 6SN7 socket, but I already use an adaptor to use the 6SN7 in my LD. I found a 7N7 to 6CG7 adaptor on ebay which would let me connect it directly to the LD, but it would be over 35 dollars for a pair. Is there anything else I can do, or is there a cheaper place to get an adaptor like that other than ebay?


Perhaps not less expensive, but head-fi'er @Deyan does a nice job making adapters as well and he is great to deal with.


----------



## attmci

Slade01 said:


> I've found the Raytheon VT-231 to be a very mid forward tube.  Also the Brimar 6SN7GT to be in this side of the spectrum as well.


How about a GE 6sn7?


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Today I am modifying an OTL amp for a gentleman from Chicago. This is a prototype and while most of the measurements were decent it sounded pretty lifeless when I got it. I will not go into circuitry changes but he was wanting more bass. So after my adjustments I put in a 52 Foton and various power tubes. The gain of the 5998 helped drastically, and one power tube I own really beefed up the bass and mids.


Hi, Tom, Does the tubes you switched cost more than the amp? LOL.


----------



## Slade01 (Apr 26, 2021)

attmci said:


> How about a GE 6sn7?



For disclosure, I have never been a fan of the GE 6SN7 (side getters).  That being said, I tried (these tubes) very early on when I first received a tube amp, and I did not know much about pairing them or synergy with power tubes.  I would say from what I remember, the GE 6SN7 was also a mid-forward tube good treble, but it did get fatiguing.  The bass for me was alot bloated, uncontrolled, really a mess in that end - my biggest point of contention with this tube.  But that's just my own experience and 2 cents.  Maybe with a much better amp, or better pairing/synergy, it shines in other situations.  Just didn't with me in this case.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Hi, Tom, Does the tubes you switched cost more than the amp? LOL.


Let's just say it is a more valuable amp because of the changes I made and parts I added.   I did end up sending a Foton and a GE 5998A with the amp to help as well but that was only $75 in tubes. The capacitors I swapped were more than that.


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> Perhaps not less expensive, but head-fi'er @Deyan does a nice job making adapters as well and he is great to deal with.


I will certainly attest to @Deyan ’s craftsmanship 👍


----------



## attmci (Apr 26, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Let's just say it is a more valuable amp because of the changes I made and parts I added.   I did end up sending a Foton and a GE 5998A with the amp to help as well but that was only $75 in tubes. The capacitors I swapped were more than that.


The only mod I had done on a crack is a pair of film capacitors (Mundorf).


I thought you donate your 5998 to the customer.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 26, 2021)

attmci said:


> The only mod I had done on a crack is a pair of film capacitors (Mundorf).
> 
> 
> I thought you donate your 5998 to the customer.


I included a GE 5998A to help a customer but I can get more, and I know if there are issues when I buy them, resoldering the pins fixed two more in my possession.

As far as Crack mods I kept the original power transformer, and IEC socket. On my own Crack I used Dual Alps black widow pots, a copper top plate, a quartered oak cabinet, VU meters, a different 1/4 inch Jack etc. I did keep the BH badge. 😸

I have front and back copper plates and added a pre-amp out circuit. No Jack’s or pot on the top plate.


----------



## HTSkywalker

LoryWiv said:


> I have found Sylvania 6SN7 or VT-231 to be very musical, mid forward with sweet treble, whilst a bit less bass quantity than RCA, Ken Rad...


I have it the same and it’s a good all round performer 👍


----------



## attmci

HTSkywalker said:


> I have it the same and it’s a good all round performer 👍


That sounds like a Syl 6SN7A to me.


----------



## Paladin79

I am running a 1961 Melz 1578 in one of my amps, best tube I have heard for ages. No flaws across the audio spectrum, great separation, no background noise. My favorite had been a 1958 Melz with solid plates but all the same features of a 1578 otherwise. This tube ranks with that one and so close in sound I doubt it will change anything in a tube challenge I am involved with. Only tubes of vastly different construction are allowed within the same brand.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am running a 1961 Melz 1578 in one of my amps, best tube I have heard for ages. No flaws across the audio spectrum, great separation, no background noise. My favorite had been a 1958 Melz with solid plates but all the same features of a 1578 otherwise. This tube ranks with that one and so close in sound I doubt it will change anything in a tube challenge I am involved with. Only tubes of vastly different construction are allowed within the same brand.


So if you have to settle for 1 and only 1 6SN7 that would be it ? Along with a TS 5998 for power (where applicable) ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

HTSkywalker said:


> So if you have to settle for 1 and only 1 6SN7 that would be it ? Along with a TS 5998 for power (where applicable) ?


Loud and clear, I rest my case


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> So if you have to settle for 1 and only 1 6SN7 that would be it ? Along with a TS 5998 for power (where applicable) ?


This would be it, the 56 and 58 solid plates I own are identical IMHO. I have had seven friends grade the 1958 for our tube challenge and nothing beats it so far, no other tube or combination of single triode tubes or other equivalents come close.  I will get this tube graded as well but in A/B tests in identical amps I cannot hear any difference. As far as power tubes, if you pair one of these with a TS 5998 or a Chatham bottom getter 6AS7G the outcome is as good as it gets for me.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This would be it, the 56 and 58 solid plates I own are identical IMHO. I have had seven friends grade the 1958 for our tube challenge and nothing beats it so far, no other tube or combination of single triode tubes or other equivalents come close.  I will get this tube graded as well but in A/B tests in identical amps I cannot hear any difference. As far as power tubes, if you pair one of these with a TS 5998 or a Chatham bottom getter 6AS7G the outcome is as good as it gets for me.



To @HTSkywalker : the chances of finding one of these particular Melz tubes is between none and zero.  @Paladin79 already has Russian mafia friends (with baseball bats in hand) pillaging and pilfering though every domicile in the entire country looking for the last ones in existence.  I think he even has insiders rummaging through Putin's personal stash after bribing coaxing some top brass at the Kremlin.  So in other words, just give up.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah -- he adheres to the 'Cowen Method' -- reveal that you've found a great tube, but never reveal your sources for that great tube!   **


** New month.  New jab allotment.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> To @HTSkywalker : the chances of finding one of these particular Melz tubes is between none and zero.  @Paladin79 already has Russian mafia friends (with baseball bats in hand) pillaging and pilfering though every domicile in the entire country looking for the last ones in existence.  I think he even has insiders rummaging through Putin's personal stash after bribing coaxing some top brass at the Kremlin.  So in other words, just give up.


Hey Ripper found a solid plate Melz just like the 58's, you just have to be diligent and start conversations with every Russian tube seller on Ebay.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- he adheres to the 'Cowen Method' -- reveal that you've found a great tube, but never reveal your sources for that great tube!   **
> 
> 
> ** New month.  New jab allotment.


If this seller had more they would be in my possession already lol. When I found a large group of 63's I made them available at a pretty low price, if I get say 25 of these I will help out once again.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- he adheres to the 'Cowen Method' -- reveal that you've found a great tube, but never reveal your sources for that great tube!   **
> 
> 
> ** New month.  New jab allotment.


I herby doth protest.  I always reveal my sources...._after _I've stashed up.   How can it possibly be _*my*_ fault that there's none left when I'm done?  Jerk.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey Ripper found a solid plate Melz just like the 58's....


That reminds me of the blind squirrel thing....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That reminds me of the blind squirrel thing....


Too bad it is not the 1978 Melz I like, I could buy those by the bucket load right now.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Too bad it is not the 1978 Melz I like, I could buy those by the bucket load right now.


So someone managed to break into a Russian missile silo?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So someone managed to break into a Russian missile silo?


LOL, I really think what we call 1578's are becoming more scarce and the prices keep climbing. There are also a lot of lesser Melz that sellers are trying to sneak in that used to go for $20 or so, now some of their asking prices is closer to $100 each.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> To @HTSkywalker : the chances of finding one of these particular Melz tubes is between none and zero.  @Paladin79 already has Russian mafia friends (with baseball bats in hand) pillaging and pilfering though every domicile in the entire country looking for the last ones in existence.  I think he even has insiders rummaging through Putin's personal stash after bribing coaxing some top brass at the Kremlin.  So in other words, just give up.


Am only left with raiding the supply line somewhere along @Paladin79 street as accessing the tube treasure chest seems mortal at this stage especially with foreign thugs being hired and all 😆😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, I really think what we call 1578's are becoming more scarce and the prices keep climbing. There are also a lot of lesser Melz that sellers are trying to sneak in that used to go for $20 or so, now some of their asking prices is closer to $100 each.


Am pretty sure whom to blame for the price climb 🙄


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Am only left with raiding the supply line somewhere along @Paladin79 street as accessing the tube treasure chest seems mortal at this stage especially with foreign thugs being hired and all 😆😆😆




I've found Tom's rooftop 6AS7G dud tube Gatlin gun to be quite daunting.  Those things can sting badly!!


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am only left with raiding the supply line somewhere along @Paladin79 street as accessing the tube treasure chest seems mortal at this stage especially with foreign thugs being hired and all 😆😆😆


What I have pales in comparison to what my local group has. We have been collecting 6sn7's and equivalents for a couple years. We are running out of tube types and brands to buy.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am pretty sure whom to blame for the price climb 🙄


The Melz list of tubes I will buy now is very specific, I doubt I own more than 15 types.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> What I have pales in comparison to what my local group has. We have been collecting 6sn7's and equivalents for a couple years. We are running out of tube types and brands to buy.


Kidding aside, you thankfully went through all the hassle and cost of collecting and testing all kind of available 6SN7 only to come up with the result that the best tube is not available anymore 😥
That's not fair 😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> What I have pales in comparison to what my local group has. We have been collecting 6sn7's and equivalents for a couple years. We are running out of tube types and brands to buy.


Hoarders lol


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Hoarders lol


Many come from personal collections.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Hey Ripper found a solid plate Melz just like the 58's, you just have to be diligent and start conversations with every Russian tube seller on Ebay.


Ripper2860 speaks Russian? Probably with a Texas accent.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Many come from personal *hoards*.


Here....fixed this for you.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Ripper2860 speaks Russian? Probably with a Texas accent.


He only knows 3 Russian words:  Melz.  Tubes.  Kill.   (in Russian, of course)


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> He only knows 3 Russian words:  Melz.  Tubes.  Kill.   (in Russian, of course)


Nah....Am sure he's also familiar with other Russian words like bribe, smuggle, hang, torture lol


----------



## Ripper2860

I can speak virtually any language w/ no accent -- thanks to Google Voice Translate.  An essential tube hoarding tool for those serious about their tube collecting hobby.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- he adheres to the 'Cowen Method' -- reveal that you've found a great tube, but never reveal your sources for that great tube!   **
> 
> 
> ** New month.  New jab allotment.


** Plus May is a 31-day month! An extra day! Have at it!


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I can speak virtually any language w/ no accent -- thanks to *the US dollar. *An essential tube hoarding tool for those serious about their tube collecting hobby.


As @bcowen would say: “fixed it for you” 😝 !


----------



## Paladin79 (May 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Kidding aside, you thankfully went through all the hassle and cost of collecting and testing all kind of available 6SN7 only to come up with the result that the best tube is not available anymore 😥
> That's not fair 😜😜


A couple are one of a kind, prototypes done by a friends grandfather while with RCA. There are some things you cannot put a price on.  

Oh and final testing is not done yet, eight of us choose tubes that can be in the final 52 but the final testing will be done by a group of at least 50 people. Most are involved in music in some fashion. After all of that is over, last I heard the top five and next five tubes will be given to those who found and donated the most tubes used in the finals. The exception is the one of a kind tubes, those stay in the family if either of them are rated in the top ten.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A couple are one of a kind, prototypes done by a friends grandfather while with RCA. There are some things you cannot put a price on.
> 
> Oh and final testing is not done yet, eight of us choose tubes that can be in the final 52 but the final testing will be done by a group of at least 50 people. Most are involved in music in some fashion. After all of that is over, last I heard the top five and next five tubes will be given to those who found and donated the most tubes used in the finals. The exception is the one of a kind tubes, those stay in the family if either of them are rated in the top ten.


*Everything* has a price.   I'll start at $1 million (USD) for my wife.  Bidding is open, um, indefinitely.  Wait...I forgot the preceding negative symbol....


----------



## attmci

HTSkywalker said:


> So if you have to settle for 1 and only 1 6SN7 that would be it ? Along with a TS 5998 for power (where applicable) ?


A B65 for sure.


----------



## HTSkywalker

attmci said:


> A B65 for sure.


True but for the price we can buy a B55  ✈️  😀😀


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> A B65 for sure.


one is still in our top 52, but I do not recall how high up it is, as better and better tubes come in the list changes.


----------



## LoryWiv

Which kidney would one sell for *these*?


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Which kidney would one sell for *these*?


Luckily someone else in my local group owns two. They are not something I need to buy.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Which kidney would one sell for *these*?


I'm keeping both of my kidneys.  But I'll sell the dang dog.  She's gotta be worth at least the shipping cost.  Cats are sooooooo much easier.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'm keeping both of my kidneys.  But I'll sell the dang dog.  She's gotta be worth at least the shipping cost.  Cats are sooooooo much easier.


Cats will do just fine, especially tube”s friendly ones 😛


----------



## ThanatosVI

Can somebody name a few good 6SN7 tubes from current production?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 2, 2021)

I would look at Psvane, some of the Russian tubes are ok but nothing wonderful.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/282728195582?hash=item41d3e9e5fe:g:CMAAAOSwamBbV1yz

Schiit used to use Russian Tung Sol 6sn7's but last I heard they went with JJ.

I personally prefer older tubes but some of those can be hard to find.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224333560544?hash=item343b527ae0:g:rx0AAOSwWNRgFTE9  These are excellent older tubes but oftentimes you need to be able to resolder the pins.

I do like RFT tubes and you have a chance of locating them in Germany but they are not current production either.


----------



## whirlwind

Paladin79 said:


> I would look at Psvane, some of the Russian tubes are ok but nothing wonderful.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/282728195582?hash=item41d3e9e5fe:g:CMAAAOSwamBbV1yz
> 
> ...


Yeah, not many new production 6SN7 to choose from...I find the older the better and if it is of military grade...even better


----------



## ThanatosVI

whirlwind said:


> Yeah, not many new production 6SN7 to choose from...I find the older the better and if it is of military grade...even better


Yeah I am well aware, but I like to stick to stuff readily available. 
And for now I'd just like to get an overview of which New production 6SN7s are there, ideally with some sound descriptions

I did similar "research" for 12au7 and KT88 (and equivalents)


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 2, 2021)

ThanatosVI said:


> Can somebody name a few good 6SN7 tubes from current production?


Your best bet from current production is PSvane but you can get better and cheaper tubes from old stock. reviewing this 6SN7 thread is very helpful


----------



## Paladin79

whirlwind said:


> Yeah, not many new production 6SN7 to choose from...I find the older the better and if it is of military grade...even better


At least the seller has matched pairs on the Melz 1959, I own a lot from that time period but in that style of tube the 1961 is my all time favorite but not easy to locate. I have access to most 6sn7's and equivalents made but the 61 is towards the top of any 6sn7 type I own.


----------



## ThanatosVI

HTSkywalker said:


> Your best bet from current production is PSvane but you can grt better and cheaper tubes from old stock. The 6SN7 thread will be very helpful


Did you mean this thread or is there another 6SN7 thread here?


----------



## whirlwind

ThanatosVI said:


> Yeah I am well aware, but I like to stick to stuff readily available.
> And for now I'd just like to get an overview of which New production 6SN7s are there, ideally with some sound descriptions
> 
> I did similar "research" for 12au7 and KT88 (and equivalents)


OK....I can not be of much help on the newer production tubes


----------



## HTSkywalker

J


Paladin79 said:


> I would look at Psvane, some of the Russian tubes are ok but nothing wonderful.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/282728195582?hash=item41d3e9e5fe:g:CMAAAOSwamBbV1yz
> 
> ...


JJ tubes are not bad and gives lot of warmth but bit muddy, am using some in my CTH


----------



## HTSkywalker

T


ThanatosVI said:


> Did you mean this thread or is there another 6SN7 thread here?


This one I meant but most people are NOS tubes lovers around here. Need to warn you though that the Psvane tends to be more SS sounding than Tube sounding given the clean sound and fast response.


----------



## HTSkywalker

S


ThanatosVI said:


> Can somebody name a few good 6SN7 tubes from current production?


Since you are in Germany, why not check the Telefunken 6SN7 GTB, should be a nice sounding tube


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
Take a look to the Lin Lai E-6Sn7 or her Standart 6Sn7 tube.
The E series are much bette as the Ps vane i find.
When you would more warm and plentfully sound the Lin Lai is the right tube.
The price is worth it make my Euforia so much better as the Ps vane tube.


----------



## Odin412

HTSkywalker said:


> Your best bet from current production is PSvane but you can get better and cheaper tubes from old stock. reviewing this 6SN7 thread is very helpful


+1 for Psvane - their tubes are excellent. (Better than many NOS tubes IMHO, but that's a dangerous thing to say here )

There's also a new company called Linlai that supposedly was founded by people who used to work for Psvane (which sounds promising), but I haven't heard any of their tubes.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> At least the seller has matched pairs on the Melz 1959, I own a lot from that time period but in that style of tube* the 1961 is my all time favorite but not easy to locate. *I have access to most 6sn7's and equivalents made but the 61 is towards the top of any 6sn7 type I own.



Funny how that always seems to be the case with you. Dammit, pick a favourite that's easy to find for once!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Funny how that always seems to be the case with you. Dammit, pick a favourite that's easy to find for once!


He normally starts with good will until he like the tube and board it 😀


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 2, 2021)

Odin412 said:


> +1 for Psvane - their tubes are excellent. (Better than many NOS tubes IMHO, but that's a dangerous thing to say here )
> 
> There's also a new company called Linlai that supposedly was founded by people who used to work for Psvane (which sounds promising), but I haven't heard any of their tubes.


In fact the PSvane is more SS sounding (clean, fast, responsive) than euphoric, not sure it’s a good thing though


----------



## FLTWS

That's why having a variety of tubes with different sound palettes is desirable so as to be able to massage the sound to one's liking to suit the music, recording qualities, etc.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Funny how that always seems to be the case with you. Dammit, pick a favourite that’s easy to find for once that @bcowen hasn’t monopolised !


----------



## jonathan c

FLTWS said:


> That's why having a variety of tubes with different sound palettes is desirable so as to be able to massage the sound to one's liking to suit the music, recording qualities, etc.


Definitely! I have a spreadsheet which lists often played CDs (jazz / R&B / blues) and which tubes (on which h/p/a) I prefer for those CDs. I will not go, however, to the ultimate in EAR (extra-anal-retention): the list by track.


----------



## Ripper2860

You'll know you have a problem when you spend more time critiquing tubes and then updating, sorting, creating pivot tables and graphs for the spreadsheet than you do actually 'listening' to the music.


----------



## HTSkywalker

For Jazz lovers (non Marilyn Manson fans) Radio Swiss Jazz is highly recommended streaming AAC. This way you can listen more to music and argue less about filling tables lol


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> You'll know you have a problem when you spend more time critiquing tubes and then updating, sorting, creating pivot tables and graphs for the spreadsheet than you do actually 'listening' to the music.


I would say that anyone, including me, who posts here more than occasionally “has a problem**” 🤪😆!

** music, adapters, amps, headphones, tubes...


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 2, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I would say that anyone, including me, who posts here more than occasionally “has a problem**” 🤪😆!
> 
> ** music, adapters, amps, headphones, tubes...


Am sure this forum was much less active during the pre-COVID era 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

And the last I heard from Head-fi is that they decided to change this thread subject but even that is hard giving the variety of subjects discussed around lol
Probably if they kick us all out, more casual (aka normal) members would be able to mention the Darkvoice for a change 🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Deleeh

I bought the Lin Lai E-6SN7 paired with the Mullards 6080 on the Feliks Euforia
Compared to the Ps vane, I prefer the Lin Lai.
Because they are not as neutral in sound and are bass poor.
The Lin Lai are a bit warmer and more powerful in the bass.
In the mids and trebles, they are quite faithful to the Ps Vane and have a more organic sound.
A little less shrill than the Ps Vane and simply fuller and more rounded in sound.
They also sound more musical but still on point and precise.

The tube tends to be suitable for neutral headphones in the tuning like the Audeze Lcd 2C you are with the tubes exactly what the Lcd 2 needs.
With dynamic headphones I haven't heard that much but I would say they are a bit fatter in sound but still subtle.

Nothing against the Ps vane, for headphones I find them too neutral and sharp, so more analytical and more useful for stereo amplifiers with speakers.
Also due to the volume of the speakers and the space that has to be filled, the Ps vane are probably more suitable.
But the Lin Lai would also find its fans in this area without a doubt.

If you have enough space you should try them out and you won't be disappointed.
Personally, in a neutral tuned amplifier, they are a win. as with the Feliks Euforia as an example, it has gained so clearly.

Of course, it's all a matter of taste.
This much I can say after listening to both tubes for over 100 hours, the Lin Lai are simply better, as described above.
The Lin Lai didn't make any problems in the first 100 hours and even after two hours it already showed the way to go, which was not the case with the Ps Vane.
There is also a rumour that the Ps Vane recovers and unfolds again.
I could not find that with the Lin Lai.

I am very satisfied with the E6SN7, which is well worth the money.
And I will buy another set.


----------



## Odin412

Deleeh said:


> I bought the Lin Lai E-6SN7 paired with the Mullards 6080 on the Feliks Euforia
> Compared to the Ps vane, I prefer the Lin Lai.
> Because they are not as neutral in sound and are bass poor.
> The Lin Lai are a bit warmer and more powerful in the bass.
> ...


Great - thanks for sharing! It definitely sounds like I will need to get one of their 6SN7s - and probably a 274B as well. Did you buy the tubes directly from their store in China?


----------



## Deleeh

Odin412 said:


> Great - thanks for sharing! It definitely sounds like I will need to get one of their 6SN7s - and probably a 274B as well. Did you buy the tubes directly from their store in China?


Currently, they are only available from Lin Lai or Premiumvacuumtubes from Canada.

I preferred Canada also because I already had contact there and for logistical reasons.
I originally wanted to take the Golden Tresor and then changed my mind at short notice.
Because I didn't want a second pair of Ps vane, so to speak.
At least I read something about it.

In the end, this belly decision was the right one.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Definitely! I have a spreadsheet which lists often played CDs (jazz / R&B / blues) and which tubes (on which h/p/a) I prefer for those CDs. I will not go, however, to the ultimate in EAR (extra-anal-retention): the list by track.


Um, no offense, but you might have already exceeded EAR.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I would say that anyone, including me, who posts here more than occasionally “has a problem**” 🤪😆!
> 
> ** music, adapters, amps, headphones, tubes...


There are worse problems to have.  Like Barbie collections.  Still waiting for @Ripper2860 to post pictures of his, but assume he hasn't yet received the mega-super-extra-wide angle lens needed to capture it all.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> And the last I heard from Head-fi is that they decided to change this thread subject but even that is hard giving the variety of subjects discussed around lol
> Probably if they kick us all out, more casual (aka normal) members would be able to mention the Darkvoice for a change 🤣🤣🤣🤣


Only problem is that this is a 6SN7 thread.

(that's what you get for the Marilyn Manson comment )


----------



## bcowen

Deleeh said:


> I bought the Lin Lai E-6SN7 paired with the Mullards 6080 on the Feliks Euforia
> Compared to the Ps vane, I prefer the Lin Lai.
> Because they are not as neutral in sound and are bass poor.
> The Lin Lai are a bit warmer and more powerful in the bass.
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts on the Lin Lai's.  Haven't ever heard any, but they sound (ooops) quite promising!  I have the PSVane CV-181T Mk II and like it quite a bit (with the right power tube), but also agree with @HTSkywalker that it's not a 'tubey' sounding tube.  I wouldn't go as far as to describe it in solid state terms, but it's definitely more in the dead-neutral camp than the usual warmer and more harmonically rich tube camp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Only problem is that this is a 6SN7 thread.
> 
> (that's what you get for the Marilyn Manson comment )


Oh God, been jumping between those 2 threads back and forth till I forgot where the hell I am lol
And yes you settled the score very quick 😆


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 2, 2021)

> There are worse problems to have.  Like Barbie collections.  Still waiting for @Ripper2860 to post pictures of his, but assume he hasn't yet received the mega-super-extra-wide angle lens needed to capture it all.



I've moved on to Bratz dolls.  They're a bit more edgy and less 'wholesome'.


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> I've moved on to Bratz dolls.  They're a bit more edgy and less 'wholesome'.


Frightening assessment, more frightening that it comes from a grown man.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 2, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> more frightening that it comes from a *grown man*.


You overestimate me, sir.


----------



## FLTWS

Deleeh said:


> Currently, they are only available from Lin Lai or Premiumvacuumtubes from Canada.
> 
> I preferred Canada also because I already had contact there and for logistical reasons.
> I originally wanted to take the Golden Tresor and then changed my mind at short notice.
> ...


I'm guessing Rachel is still at GrantFidelity, have been buying from there for a couple years, all good experience. Just ordered a matched pair of the Ultra low Noise LinLai Global E-6SN7's from there. To go head to head against my Psvane matched pairs of: 6SN7, CV181- T II's, and Shuguang matched pairs of WE6SN7Plus Black Plate and Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE.

Who’d expect to find a money pit in a vacuum? It’s a vacuum for cryin’ out loud!


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> I'm guessing Rachel is still at GrantFidelity, have been buying from there for a couple years, all good experience. Just ordered a matched pair of the Ultra low Noise LinLai Global E-6SN7's from there. To go head to head against my Psvane matched pairs of: 6SN7, CV181- T II's, and Shuguang matched pairs of WE6SN7Plus Black Plate and Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE.
> 
> Who’d expect to find a money pit in a vacuum? It’s a vacuum for cryin’ out loud!


Be interested in your impressions once you get them, especially compared to the CV181-T (I don't have any of the other tubes you noted).


----------



## FLTWS

That E-6SN7 has an interesting shape to it. It's a hair over 4 inches high from the bottom of the base which makes it a little bit taller than the coke bottle Psvane version, but still shorter than a 5998 or 6AS7 coke bottle.


----------



## FLTWS

Probably also interesting to hear what they can do in my LYR3 as well as the Inky's.


----------



## jonathan c

FLTWS said:


> I'm guessing Rachel is still at GrantFidelity, have been buying from there for a couple years, all good experience. Just ordered a matched pair of the Ultra low Noise LinLai Global E-6SN7's from there. To go head to head against my Psvane matched pairs of: 6SN7, CV181- T II's, and Shuguang matched pairs of WE6SN7Plus Black Plate and Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE.
> 
> Who’d expect to find a money pit in a vacuum? It’s a vacuum for cryin’ out loud!


The vacuum is in your wallet....


----------



## HTSkywalker

LoryWiv said:


> Frightening assessment, more frightening that it comes from a grown man.


And I was still shy admitting that am still keeping my Matchbox car collection 😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> You overestimate me, sir.


🙂🙂🙂
In fact I often hear nasty comments from some neighbors about me building and flying Radio controlled planes and helis. few even ask me if I can take their kids with me to play too 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Funny how that always seems to be the case with you. Dammit, pick a favourite that's easy to find for once!


Ah if it were only so easy lol.


----------



## FLTWS

Tube rolling is the ultimate in chasing your tail with expectations of catching it with your teeth. Especially difficult for humans.


----------



## FLTWS

Smells like victory?


----------



## jonathan c

FLTWS said:


> Smells like victory?


A takedown?....half-nelson?....tie match?...


----------



## Paladin79 (May 3, 2021)

I am merely filling out my collection and I did not have a 1961 Melz so I bought one when I saw one available. How was I to know I would like it this much lol? There are a couple 1963's on Ebay and they are quite nice, and a friend picked up some 1959's last week. The tubes are out there but you have to be diligent, and take chances. This is not a game for the meek especially when some are $140 each plus shipping.    Also oftentimes you need to re-solder the pins on the older Melz.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> Tube rolling is the ultimate in chasing your tail with expectations of catching it with your teeth. Especially difficult for humans.


ROFL!!


----------



## S0undJunk1e

Burn in time for (NOT NIB)  NOS 6SN7s?   Or are they good to go from the start since they were probably used years ago?


----------



## HTSkywalker

S0undJunk1e said:


> Burn in time for (NOT NIB)  NOS 6SN7s?   Or are they good to go from the start since they were probably used years ago?


The theory behind burning-in NOS tubes is that heating them helps to activate the getter to remove trace gases which may have formed during shelf life.
But again it’s a theory and not a proven fact but it won’t hurt.


----------



## S0undJunk1e

HTSkywalker said:


> The theory behind burning-in NOS tubes is that heating them helps to activate the getter to remove trace gases which may have formed during shelf life.
> But again it’s a theory and not a proven fact but it won’t hurt.


So a few hours or so is probably all it's gonna take if it's anything at all?


----------



## HTSkywalker

S0undJunk1e said:


> So a few hours or so is probably all it's gonna take if it's anything at all?


Burn-in could be done while listening especially if there is no humming or hissing. 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

And if prefer to do some burning in, you can do it without the power tube plugged in.


----------



## bcowen

S0undJunk1e said:


> So a few hours or so is probably all it's gonna take if it's anything at all?


Yup.  If it's been previously used and just not played in a while, a couple hours should be sufficient to get it singing again.


----------



## Deleeh

Just burn it in normally.
Do not turn up the volume excessively.
And when it ran for 5-8 hours a day, I wrote down the hours until the 50-100 were through.
I didn't let the Lin Lai run for more than 8 hours at a time.
Unfortunately, they need a minimum of 100 hours, but then it's also good.
I was through with it in just under 3 weeks.
Also because it only ran for 4-5 hours of the amplifier instead of 8 hours.

That's part of it when you buy a tube amp, even if it's a nuisance.
I don't believe in burn-in from the socket and all that.
The old method also reveals whether the tube is working properly.

But in the end, everyone does what they think is right.


----------



## jonathan c (May 9, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> And I was still shy admitting that am still keeping my Matchbox car collection 😃😃


I still have a Corgi collection:  one in it is the 007 gold Aston Martin DB5 with the bullet shields etc.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> I still have a Corgi collection:  one in it is the 007 gold Aston Martin DB5 with the bullet shields etc.


Well I admit it's hard for me to let go, my collection even survived my kids playing with it. 😃


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> I still have a Corgi collection:  one in it is the 007 gold Aston Martin DB5 with the bullet shields etc.


Wait you have a car collection shaped like little dogs?😸
Woodstock is part corgi.


----------



## Paladin79

After 12 hours of running, a new amp with a Gungnir source is sounding pretty amazing. Listening to a Melz solid plate from 1958 with a Tung Sol 5998; this combo is phenomenal IMHO. Listening with Focal Utopias. Next up is a Melz 1578 from 1961. For me the Melz have no rivals, if you get the right years.😸😸


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Wait you have a car collection shaped like little dogs?😸
> Woodstock is part corgi.


Presenting:


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Presenting:


Very cool and of course I was being facetious. My son is amazing about keeping things I have given him, somewhere there is a Z car in silver that was very much like a Datzun 240Z I owned. I gave him a red Mazda RX7 when he turned 16 but he eventually totaled it. Now he buys his own sports cars.


----------



## FLTWS

My Linlai Global E-6SN7's have arrived, very well packed.


----------



## Odin412

FLTWS said:


> My Linlai Global E-6SN7's have arrived, very well packed.


Nice! Please let us know your impressions.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> My Linlai Global E-6SN7's have arrived, very well packed.


Sweet!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Very cool and of course I was being facetious. My son is amazing about keeping things I have given him, somewhere there is a Z car in silver that was very much like a Datzun 240Z I owned. I gave him a red Mazda RX7 when he turned 16 but he eventually totaled it. Now he buys his own sports cars.


I just gave my white one a bath yesterday.  Still shines up pretty nicely for a 16 year old car, and I haven't totaled it....yet.   Of course with its book value what it is today, all I'd have to do is break a headlight and it'd be totaled.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I just gave my white one a bath yesterday.  Still shines up pretty nicely for a 16 year old car, and I haven't totaled it....yet.   Of course with its book value what it is today, all I'd have to do is break a headlight and it'd be totaled.


Still in pristine condition 👍


----------



## Ripper2860

Bill is just a teeny bit anal retentive, so that's to be expected.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill is just a teeny bit anal retentive, so that's to be expected.


Teeny?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Maybe someone of you 6SN7 enthusiasts can answer my question. 
According to this Website.
https://tubemaze.info/tube_equivalents/

6SN7 tubes can be used as replacements for 12BH7 tubes and only need an Adapter. (Octal to Noval)
In other words, they have different pinout but are electrically identical.

Has anyone experience with that and can confirm?


----------



## sam6550a

ThanatosVI said:


> Maybe someone of you 6SN7 enthusiasts can answer my question.
> According to this Website.
> https://tubemaze.info/tube_equivalents/
> 
> ...


The 12BH7 is close to a 6SN7, a direct replacement would be the 6CG7.


----------



## bcowen

ThanatosVI said:


> Maybe someone of you 6SN7 enthusiasts can answer my question.
> According to this Website.
> https://tubemaze.info/tube_equivalents/
> 
> ...


It depends on what voltage your amp is running the 12BH7's at.  The filaments on a 12BH7 can be run at either 6.3v or 12.6v -- if your amp is running them at 6.3v, then an adapter should allow a 6SN7 to be subbed (although it will have more gain).  If your amp is running the 12BH7's at 12.6v, then a simple pin converting adapter will not work -- you'll fry the filaments of the 6SN7.


----------



## ThanatosVI

bcowen said:


> It depends on what voltage your amp is running the 12BH7's at.  The filaments on a 12BH7 can be run at either 6.3v or 12.6v -- if your amp is running them at 6.3v, then an adapter should allow a 6SN7 to be subbed (although it will have more gain).  If your amp is running the 12BH7's at 12.6v, then a simple pin converting adapter will not work -- you'll fry the filaments of the 6SN7.


Thank you guys. 
So I have to ask McIntosh at which voltage they run the 12BH7 in their new MHA200.

Do you think they will reveal such detail?


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2021)

I would imagine the MFG would provide that information. 

BTW -- if your amp is running the 12BH7 at 12.6v, you could run 12SN7s -- the 12v version of 6SN7.


----------



## bcowen

ThanatosVI said:


> Thank you guys.
> So I have to ask McIntosh at which voltage they run the 12BH7 in their new MHA200.
> 
> Do you think they will reveal such detail?


Never hurts to ask.  At worst, all they can say is they won't say.    

@Ripper2860 's advice on the 12SN7 is also a good one.  Good 12SN7's are usually much cheaper than 6SN7's mostly (assuming) because they aren't used as much and subsequently don't have as much demand.  The only difference spec-wise between the 12SN7 and 6SN7 is the heater (filament) voltage, otherwise they are identical electrically.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Ripper2860 said:


> I would imagine the MFG would provide that information.
> 
> BTW -- if your amp is running the 12BH7 at 12.6v, you could run 12SN7s -- the 12v version of 6SN7.


Interesting, I will look into these.
Thank you


----------



## ThanatosVI (May 11, 2021)

I'm back with more questions.
I read that the 6SN7 draws 600 ma of filament current.
Does the 12SN7 draw 300ma or also 600?

Edit:
With some googling I found out, that it is 300ma.
And that most other 12.6V tubes like 12AU7 use only half of that 150mA


----------



## FLTWS

The glass tubes on these Linlai E-6SN7's are large. That's a Tungsol 5998 behind the one on the Incvbvs.


----------



## HTSkywalker

ThanatosVI said:


> Thank you guys.
> So I have to ask McIntosh at which voltage they run the 12BH7 in their new MHA200.
> 
> Do you think they will reveal such detail?


Mcintosch support is very responsive and helpful, good luck with that.


----------



## jonathan c

ThanatosVI said:


> I'm back with more questions.
> I read that the 6SN7 draws 600 ma of filament current.
> Does the 12SN7 draw 300ma or also 600?
> 
> ...


From the tube data sheet:


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I just gave my white one a bath yesterday.  Still shines up pretty nicely for a 16 year old car, and I haven't totaled it....yet.   Of course with its book value what it is today, all I'd have to do is break a headlight and it'd be totaled.


You do have a tube Stereo in that right?
If not, why not? https://uncrate.com/panasonic-cq-tx5500d-vacuum-tube-car-stereo/


----------



## sam6550a

Mr Trev said:


> You do have a tube Stereo in that right?
> If not, why not? https://uncrate.com/panasonic-cq-tx5500d-vacuum-tube-car-stereo/


I believe that Bill had problems with the dynamotor HV power supply.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I just gave my white one a bath yesterday.  Still shines up pretty nicely for a 16 year old car, and I haven't totaled it....yet.   Of course with its book value what it is today, all I'd have to do is break a headlight and it'd be totaled.


That's bill radio, nothing below it meets his standard 😁 (don't mind other members nasty comments😉 )


----------



## HTSkywalker

FLTWS said:


> The glass tubes on these Linlai E-6SN7's are large. That's a Tungsol 5998 behind the one on the Incvbvs.


nice looking for a change 👌


----------



## jonathan c (May 17, 2021)

A few arrivals from russia with love.....four 6N8S / 1578 Melz (1959 vintage). The pins look structurally sound....a shine up & a warm up....then 🎶....(Woo WA6)....A big THANK YOU to @Paladin79 for all his advice on this special tube!!


----------



## Deleeh

Have fun with it,congrats.


----------



## jonathan c

Deleeh said:


> Have fun with it,congrats.


Thank you, I am excited to hear these out.


----------



## attmci

jonathan c said:


> A few arrivals from russia with love.....four 6N8S / 1578 Melz (1959 vintage). The pins look structurally sound....a shine up & a warm up....then 🎶....(Woo WA6)....A big THANK YOU to @Paladin79 for all his advice on this special tube!!


These are the best tubes $$ can buy. You are so lucky to have these tubes. Congratulations!!!!!


----------



## jonathan c

Before and after “ignition”: the sight alone meltz my heart....ears to follow....


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Before and after “ignition”: the sight alone meltz my heart....ears to follow....


Congrats 👍
Sound impressions ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> A few arrivals from russia with love.....four 6N8S / 1578 Melz (1959 vintage). The pins look structurally sound....a shine up & a warm up....then 🎶....(Woo WA6)....A big THANK YOU to @Paladin79 for all his advice on this special tube!!


Seems a bunch 😍😍


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Seems a bunch 😍😍


Initially, yes; but two are used in the Woo WA6 and I am a stickler for backup...the usual tubeophilia...


----------



## jonathan c (May 18, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Congrats 👍
> Sound impressions ?


I will definitely post on those...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Initially, yes; but two are used in the Woo WA6 and I am a stickler for backup...the usual tubeophilia...


Was it an eBay purchase ?


----------



## JTbbb

jonathan c said:


> A few arrivals from russia with love.....four 6N8S / 1578 Melz (1959 vintage). The pins look structurally sound....a shine up & a warm up....then 🎶....(Woo WA6)....A big THANK YOU to @Paladin79 for all his advice on this special tube!!



I received my 1578’s quite a while ago, the ‘63 version, and I only listened to them briefly to make sure they were working and quiet. This has inspired me to get them out, and here they are! Am thoroughly enjoying them.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Was it an eBay purchase ?


Yes; the seller was “don69-andy”.


----------



## HTSkywalker

JTbbb said:


> I received my 1578’s quite a while ago, the ‘63 version, and I only listened to them briefly to make sure they were working and quiet. This has inspired me to get them out, and here they are! Am thoroughly enjoying them.


Nice Feliks Audio you got 👍


----------



## cddc

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303966225556

Which newbie spent $300 on these $20 worth Russian 6N8S rebranded Westinghouse tubes? 

This is why it's so important to remember how these Russian 6N8S tubes look like! Lots of fake or rebrands use these cheap Russian tubes!


----------



## HTSkywalker

cddc said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303966225556
> 
> Which newbie spent $300 on these $20 worth Russian 6N8S rebranded Westinghouse tubes?
> 
> This is why it's so important to remember how these Russian 6N8S tubes look like! Lots of fake or rebrands use these cheap Russian tubes!


Never buy from non reputable vendors


----------



## cddc (May 28, 2021)

The seller *singerhousesound* might have counterfeited the silkscreen print.

It's printed so badly on the bases, ugly fonts and nothing aligned. They look so fake, outright BangyBang style rip-off.


----------



## Galapac

The seller has all positive feedback and lots of it. Either he doesn’t know or his customers don’t know.


----------



## cddc

The buyer is a 100% newbie for sure, otherwise he wouldn't have spent $300 on these $20 worth of fake Westinghouse 6SN7 tubes, had he known it in advance.

The seller however is unlikely unaware of what he was selling. He has been there for a long long time, almost as long as BangyBang. I doubt he knows nothing about these tubes, he even knows 2-Hole Bad Boy and intentionally used "2-Hole" in the tube title. 

Having all positive positive feedbacks can sometimes be deceiving. For one, BangyBang and Menifee also have 100% positive feedbacks, lots of them.   And speaking from my personal experience, I once met a lying seller and left a negative feedback on him in order to warn others, surprisingly several months later, I found he removed the negative feedback and became 100% positive feedback again!!! I called eBay several times to complain about it, however, eBay took no action against him - eBay protects sellers!


----------



## FLTWS

I decide a while back, no more NOS from etsy or ebay for me.


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 27, 2021)

FLTWS said:


> I decide a while back, no more NOS from etsy or ebay for me.


Depends on which supplier on Etsy as I have positive experience with Lowtechelec.
Jeff the owner is very professional, courteous and helpful 👍


----------



## tafens

ThanatosVI said:


> Can somebody name a few good 6SN7 tubes from current production?


Of the ones I’ve tried I’d recommend the Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB in the lower price range ($25-30 or thereabouts), for a nice step up the Shuguang CV181-Z (about double the $).


----------



## HTSkywalker

ThanatosVI said:


> Can somebody name a few good 6SN7 tubes from current production?


NOS here only 😁


----------



## tafens

Odin412 said:


> There's also a new company called Linlai that supposedly was founded by people who used to work for Psvane (which sounds promising), but I haven't heard any of their tubes.


As I understand it, Psvane was also founded in  the same way, by people who used to work for Shuguang..


----------



## FLTWS

tafens said:


> As I understand it, Psvane was also founded in  the same way, by people who used to work for Shuguang..


And the key Psvane folks left to form Linlai as I understand it.


----------



## UntilThen

I have to ask the wise sages here for directions. I am interested in buying a pair of Melz 6sn7. It must be the genuine stuff. Is this genuine or some backyard stuff masquerading as Don Quixote's Sancho Panza?

At this price, I better go solid state.    Are there any cheaper?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2744054...gM%2BG23N6IHCQ%3D%3D|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675


----------



## cddc

I won't comment on the pricing. But these are genuine Melz 6N8S tubes (U.S. 6SN7 equivalent).

They seem to be new in box.

Their test values seem a little bit weird though, maybe because they're using some weird Russian tester. So can't say how well they test. The Ia value should be around 8-12 mA, but they have something like 60-90  Weird Russian numbers


----------



## cddc

They are sometimes also marketed as Melz 1578 tubes, because of the holes on the anodes.


----------



## UntilThen

Hmmm at that price I think I will get Mullard ECC35 instead.


----------



## bcowen (May 29, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I have to ask the wise sages here for directions. I am interested in buying a pair of Melz 6sn7. It must be the genuine stuff. Is this genuine or some backyard stuff masquerading as Don Quixote's Sancho Panza?
> 
> At this price, I better go solid state.    Are there any cheaper?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/274405496479?_trkparms=aid=1110018&algo=HOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=232616&meid=4949418773104a0ea8a111bfb1755130&pid=101196&rk=2&rkt=12&sd=262214258645&itm=274405496479&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=ItemStripV101HighAdFeeWithCompV3Ranker&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum:2744054964794949418773104a0ea8a111bfb1755130|enc:AQAFAAACEF7W2J%2Byad9XHRq7BGeEL9xHt%2BL4Rxha5wZgkZpbj%2BYrYblz5i9vlgj4AfGdXASGn%2BesfcxRWaaYJLLICDpmflSo8K7WTydreX4fmZtZGa8pwRNmBR8yP9Q3YmWBCJgLVj5iZh4Q8Vyx1o3F95noBu3C5s%2BiB4xExBuhnhfy5JbiM0DCeFt1k6fbwkwrSzcsyL0cRM3zaaGtXJmmzAX7AqzjVHAgZZltu%2BVWirc1sZjeM%2FLkP7iXi84bKZ0Ref8K%2FH4zXd7PKTdI0Q39jc1D2PC%2FeMWvSJp1tcVt%2Bq7OGaBbnkeKgT%2BT26xGERDEavBR4s1CxjnyYXzivdVlZ%2BSoXk3dgeSKLq0YvjZh6fMOPXefgo%2BN2ZThsveV37hdBPmnAJtTXgXIRsqrrxYFA%2B5g4CAXkaE0MkD9yl4l57jdFWrmukbFCIOeYrTz%2B4Lpt1gc2%2FiNyla56M1gd%2FPmlWyeBuZF1RkzBv3ttbs06OIW1%2F8FGL%2FSoKjP2UWO%2BnfefXplPJ%2FMcyJV3NRWmvOS9PK2U%2Bm%2B0zJ5JRv38x9yfU4d9XnpSTA6G29Efl9W%2Bx5M2lqELnGtIRKSrz8z3VJtLoWMrgBpQq5KJqYZOQoSHHXM%2BN4bLDYjb%2B53ZlrEJkqQduErvnsmIxrmxRmrG8mOc%2BCqsyRegdu4pwXfrU7VmBvBKj9LDGwZqncxjmgM%2BG23N6IHCQ%3D%3D|ampidL_CLK|clp:2047675


There are two (main) varieties on these: the "regular" ones with oval top and bottom micas, plastic top mica supports, and solid plates, and then the true 1578 (which is the more sought after version) with tabbed rectangular top and bottom micas, metal spring top mica supports, and perforated plates.  @Paladin79 is the resident Melz expert, and he's also found a very few mutants that are a combination of both.  Those in the ad are genuine 1578's and 1963 is one of the better years, but that price is high -- you can find these on US Ebay for around $100 USD each, but it's not always easy to tell what year they are and there are differences in sonics between the various vintages.  Like @cddc I can't make heads or tails of those test values, but at least they indicate they were tested.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks cddc and Bcowen. 1963... how can I forget. The assassination of President John F Kennedy. I was too young to comprehend then but now I think it's the saddest moment in history.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There are two (main) varieties on these: the "regular" ones with oval top and bottom micas, plastic top mica supports, and solid plates, and then the true 1578 (which is the more sought after) with tabbed rectangular top and bottom micas, metal spring top mica supports, and perforated plates.  @Paladin79 is the resident Melz expert, and he's also found a very few mutants that are a combination of both.  Those are genuine 1578's and 1963 is one of the better years, but that price is high -- you can find these on US Ebay for around $100 USD each, but it's not always easy to tell what year they are and there are differences in sonics between the various vintages.  Like @cddc I can't make heads or tails of those test values, but at least they indicate they were tested.


My current favorite perforated plate 1578 is the 1961, well balanced but with a slightly better sound stage IMHO. They are not common yet worth watching for.😉


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Thanks cddc and Bcowen. 1963... how can I forget. The assassination of President John F Kennedy. I was too young to comprehend then but now I think it's the saddest moment in history.


Easy for me to remember too 'cause that's the year my sister was born.  Not going to say whether she's my older or younger sister.


----------



## UntilThen

I will buy a pair of Melz 1578 from the year 1963. Not from that ebay listing. A gentleman reach out to me and I will buy it. Will also hunt down a pair of Mullard ECC35. All for Odyssey and Wa22. Also a single ECC31 and 33. Don't think I will be able to get the mint Sylvania 6sn7w metal base that I sold off again. Well not at the 175 pounds that I got from Langrex NOS NIB. 

Hindsight is a dirty word but yeah on hindsight I shouldn't have sold off those tubes because I thought I will go tubeless. Now I'm tube full more than ever. 

Fortunately I kept a pair of Fotons ! Haha...


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> I have to ask the wise sages here for directions. I am interested in buying a pair of Melz 6sn7. It must be the genuine stuff. Is this genuine or some backyard stuff masquerading as Don Quixote's Sancho Panza?
> 
> At this price, I better go solid state.    Are there any cheaper?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/274405496479?_trkparms=aid=1110018&algo=HOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=232616&meid=4949418773104a0ea8a111bfb1755130&pid=101196&rk=2&rkt=12&sd=262214258645&itm=274405496479&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=ItemStripV101HighAdFeeWithCompV3Ranker&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum:2744054964794949418773104a0ea8a111bfb1755130|enc:AQAFAAACEF7W2J%2Byad9XHRq7BGeEL9xHt%2BL4Rxha5wZgkZpbj%2BYrYblz5i9vlgj4AfGdXASGn%2BesfcxRWaaYJLLICDpmflSo8K7WTydreX4fmZtZGa8pwRNmBR8yP9Q3YmWBCJgLVj5iZh4Q8Vyx1o3F95noBu3C5s%2BiB4xExBuhnhfy5JbiM0DCeFt1k6fbwkwrSzcsyL0cRM3zaaGtXJmmzAX7AqzjVHAgZZltu%2BVWirc1sZjeM%2FLkP7iXi84bKZ0Ref8K%2FH4zXd7PKTdI0Q39jc1D2PC%2FeMWvSJp1tcVt%2Bq7OGaBbnkeKgT%2BT26xGERDEavBR4s1CxjnyYXzivdVlZ%2BSoXk3dgeSKLq0YvjZh6fMOPXefgo%2BN2ZThsveV37hdBPmnAJtTXgXIRsqrrxYFA%2B5g4CAXkaE0MkD9yl4l57jdFWrmukbFCIOeYrTz%2B4Lpt1gc2%2FiNyla56M1gd%2FPmlWyeBuZF1RkzBv3ttbs06OIW1%2F8FGL%2FSoKjP2UWO%2BnfefXplPJ%2FMcyJV3NRWmvOS9PK2U%2Bm%2B0zJ5JRv38x9yfU4d9XnpSTA6G29Efl9W%2Bx5M2lqELnGtIRKSrz8z3VJtLoWMrgBpQq5KJqYZOQoSHHXM%2BN4bLDYjb%2B53ZlrEJkqQduErvnsmIxrmxRmrG8mOc%2BCqsyRegdu4pwXfrU7VmBvBKj9LDGwZqncxjmgM%2BG23N6IHCQ%3D%3D|ampidL_CLK|clp:2047675


@Paladin79  is our Melz Guru but probably by now he harvested all of it through his Russian connections (mostly thugs breaking in on peaceful old dudes and unplugging tubes from old radios) 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Easy for me to remember too 'cause that's the year my sister was born.  Not going to say whether she's my older or younger sister.


🤐🤐🤐


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 30, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I will buy a pair of Melz 1578 from the year 1963. Not from that ebay listing. A gentleman reach out to me and I will buy it. Will also hunt down a pair of Mullard ECC35. All for Odyssey and Wa22. Also a single ECC31 and 33. Don't think I will be able to get the mint Sylvania 6sn7w metal base that I sold off again. Well not at the 175 pounds that I got from Langrex NOS NIB.
> 
> Hindsight is a dirty word but yeah on hindsight I shouldn't have sold off those tubes because I thought I will go tubeless. Now I'm tube full more than ever.
> 
> Fortunately I kept a pair of Fotons ! Haha...


Seems you are our for blood 😀😀
And don’t mock Fotons coz @bcowen  may take it as a personal offense 😜


----------



## UntilThen

I once use 6 x Fotons in GOTL for a Super 7 effect.

In 20 years time, Fotons will cost as much as Melz 1578 now. Tubes will never be produced in big numbers like the 50s 60s and 70s and never in those years quality.


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 30, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I once use 6 x Fotons in GOTL for a Super 7 effect.
> 
> In 20 years time, Fotons will cost as much as Melz 1578 now. Tubes will never be produced in big numbers like the 50s 60s and 70s and never in those years quality.


Good news as @bcowen will be a billionaire by then if he survives that long 😜😜😜
In fact not sure how many of us old farts would even be around 😂😂😂


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> Good news as @bcowen will be a billionaire by then if he survives that long 😜😜😜
> In fact not sure how many of us old farts would even be around 😂😂😂



Bcowen must be a very humble man if he's a billionaire and still drives my cart. These days I won't underestimate him no more especially when he said that he had lots of GEC KT77 but sold them away. Who knows he might have a dozen or more of Western Electric 300b original tubes. If that is the case, I'll be very kind to him. Very very kind.

Old farts will be forever around because you know the saying...

Old soldier never dies... they just fade away ... into oblivion.

Now I shall play a song for Bcowen.



... for I know... he would not encumber me.


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 30, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen must be a very humble man if he's a billionaire and still drives my cart. These days I won't underestimate him no more especially when he said that he had lots of GEC KT77 but sold them away. Who knows he might have a dozen or more of Western Electric 300b original tubes. If that is the case, I'll be very kind to him. Very very kind.
> 
> Old farts will be forever around because you know the saying...
> 
> ...



And Marines never die, they just go to hell to regroup 😀
And @bcowen can always surprise with more rabbits from his 🎩😀


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Good news as @bcowen will be a billionaire by then if he survives that long 😜😜😜
> In fact not sure how many of us old farts would even be around 😂😂😂


LOL!  When I first got tuned into the Fotons a couple years ago, I was getting _quads_ of rib plates ('51's - '55's) for $32 delivered from a Russian seller.  Now I see the rib plates going for $50+ per _pair,_ plus shipping. I'll wait until they get to $100/pair, and then sell a few (dozen).


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Seems you are our for blood 😀😀
> And don’t mock Fotons coz @bcowen  may take it as a personal offense 😜


 I never considered the Fotons to be end-game tubes. But great cheap tubes? Oh yeah. Especially when the good years were less than $10 a piece. But then Frankentube happened -- the first one I bought was $5.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen must be a very humble man if he's a billionaire and still drives my cart. These days I won't underestimate him no more especially when he said that he had lots of GEC KT77 but sold them away. Who knows he might have a dozen or more of Western Electric 300b original tubes. If that is the case, I'll be very kind to him. Very very kind.
> 
> Old farts will be forever around because you know the saying...
> 
> ...



You should be kind to me just for _not_ driving the cart into the lake for over 2 months now.  In fact, that's an accomplishment of such merit I should get an award or something.     

And sorry on the WE 300B's.  Only a quad of 1958's.  Don't have an amp that can use them right now (the Jota needs the high current version), but I'm saving those for the 300B headphone amp I haven't bought yet.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You should be kind to me just for _not_ driving the cart into the lake for over 2 months now.  In fact, that's an accomplishment of such merit I should get an award or something.


The absolute award comes when you drive the cart_ out of _the lake...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The absolute award comes when you drive the cart_ out of _the lake...


True.  But that's also when @UntilThen comes running at me yelling and swinging his golf club.  Not as much fun.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> True.  But that's also when @UntilThen comes running at me yelling and swinging his golf club.  Not as much fun.


But he needs the water escapades to keep his handicap high for “sandbagging” purposes...


----------



## Paladin79 (May 30, 2021)

This morning I am running some fine Melz tubes. 1961 on the right, 1954 oval mica with perforated plates on he left. Both are Incubus amps I built but the one on the right was a version one so I am adding upgrades. I can switch back and forth between them to compare the sound. Because the 1961 is so rare, I keep it in a socket extender to add a bit of protection.


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 30, 2021)

There woke up my overseas friends 😀😀😀 while am enjoying my day on the pool 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  When I first got tuned into the Fotons a couple years ago, I was getting _quads_ of rib plates ('51's - '55's) for $32 delivered from a Russian seller.  Now I see the rib plates going for $50+ per _pair,_ plus shipping. I'll wait until they get to $100/pair, and then sell a few (dozen).


So in 20 years, just do the maths 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I never considered the Fotons to be end-game tubes. But great cheap tubes? Oh yeah. Especially when the good years were less than $10 a piece. But then Frankentube happened -- the first one I bought was $5.


Am afraid on the other end the GEs are getting cheaper by the  day too  😜😜


----------



## Paladin79

A better photo of the 1954 Melz, I paid 25 plus shipping and it is a good sounding tubes with few weaknesses.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Am afraid on the other end the GEs are getting cheaper by the  day too  😜😜


Most things in life self-correct given enough time.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A better photo of the 1954 Melz, I paid 25 plus shipping and it is a good sounding tubes with few weaknesses.


I'm liking the TS 5998 behind it.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> This morning I am running some fine Melz tubes. 1961 on the right, 1954 oval mica with perforated plates on he left. Both are Incubus amps I built but the one on the right was a version one so I am adding upgrades. I can switch back and forth between them to compare the sound. Because the 1961 is so rare, I keep it in a socket extender to add a bit of protection.


The amps are beautiful AND they are NOT sideways...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The amps are beautiful AND they are NOT sideways...


Oh fine.  My Incubus is not sideways....it's unique.  Like me.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Most things in life self-correct given enough time.  LOL!!


The sole exception: a DV can never self-correct; unplugging it is the only remedy...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> The sole exception: a DV can never self-correct; unplugging it is the only remedy...


And the cicadas songs will seize existing in @Paladin79 garden


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh fine.  My Incubus is not sideways....it's unique.  Like me.


You ARE unique, just like everybody else.   

 The amp on the right is the same type of wood I used on Bill's sideways amp, tulip poplar or mineral poplar. If you get more than a couple colors in the wood you call it rainbow poplar.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 30, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> And the cicadas songs will seize existing in @Paladin79 garden


The cicadas have not ceased to exist quite yet.
  This is under one tree in my yard and there is a woods behind me. I heard of a marathon being called off because of the crunching noise underfoot.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This morning I am running some fine Melz tubes. 1961 on the right, 1954 oval mica with perforated plates on he left. Both are Incubus amps I built but the one on the right was a version one so I am adding upgrades. I can switch back and forth between them to compare the sound. Because the 1961 is so rare, I keep it in a socket extender to add a bit of protection.


This is what's on-deck for me today, assuming I can get my lawnmower running without spending the entire day on it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You ARE unique, just like everybody else.
> 
> The amp on the right is the same type of wood I used on Bill's* unique* amp, tulip poplar or mineral poplar. If you get more than a couple colors in the wood you call it rainbow poplar.


Fixed this for you...again.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This is what's on-deck for me today, assuming I can get my lawnmower running without spending the entire day on it.


You best work on that oxidation on the pins, I got some Russian silver shield tubes, 6N23P's I need to plug in one day but my focus now is on upgrading and repairing things in my shop. The Cary amp may be next and then maybe I can mod the DV. I decided not to work Fridays for a while so that should help me catch up.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You best work on that oxidation on the pins, I got some Russian silver shield tubes, 6N23P's I need to plug in one day but my focus now is on upgrading and repairing things in my shop. The Cary amp may be next and then maybe I can mod the DV. I decided not to work Fridays for a while so that should help me catch up.


Yup.  Just gave it a cursory cleaning with alcohol before testing it.  Going to need a Deoxit scrub before it goes in my unique amp.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yup.  Just gave it a cursory cleaning with alcohol before testing it.  Going to need a Deoxit scrub before it goes in my unique amp.


I always use a brass bristled brush....and tape head cleaner.

*Brass* bristle *brushes* are *used* on softer surfaces or when it is necessary to clean a harder surface without marring it. *Brass* bristle *brushes* are also *used* in potentially flammable environments where non-sparking tools are required.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> This is what's on-deck for me today, assuming I can get my lawnmower running without spending the entire day on it.


That green stuff on the base of the pins reminds me of the virus brought back by the probe in "Andromeda Strain"





Or maybe its just dried


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The cicadas have not ceased to exist quite yet.  This is under one tree in my yard and there is a woods behind me. I heard of a marathon being called off because of the crunching noise underfoot.


A fully manned orchestra 😀😀


----------



## FLTWS

A smorgasbord for the birds?


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> This morning I am running some fine Melz tubes. 1961 on the right, 1954 oval mica with perforated plates on he left. Both are Incubus amps I built but the one on the right was a version one so I am adding upgrades.



Mr Paladin... always reminds me of the Paladin I had when I played D2 and that was so looooong time ago. Anyway Paladin, you have some nice looking Incubus amps. Can you describe the tone of Melz 1578? In comparison to some famous tubes I've heard and owned. Such as Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates, Sylvania 6sn7w metal base and Mullard ECC33 / ECC35 / ECC31. Or even the Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'm liking the TS 5998 behind it.



I have a perfect pair that even the Queen wanted but I will exchange it for your pair of Western Electric 300b tubes. I will even pay shipping both ways. How's that for generosity?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> This is what's on-deck for me today, assuming I can get my lawnmower running without spending the entire day on it.


When you're done with your lawn, do mine. What is that mini tube you have there? I'm looking for some renown 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7. 

By the way it's my day off so I'm going to the audio shop to audition a .... guess what?  This ! I want to know if that statement is true and the only thing I have for comparison is my iphone earbud.


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> Am afraid on the other end the GEs are getting cheaper by the  day too  😜😜



No that's no possible. 'My' GE are appreciating in value every minute.


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> No that's no possible. 'My' GE are appreciating in value every minute.


You probably got a lucky pair, which tubes are those and in which amp


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> You probably got a lucky pair, which tubes are those and in which amp



Those are GE 5691 or the premium 6SL7. I will use then in Odyssey which can take 6SL7 or 6SN7 or 12au7 or 12at7 or 12ax7 or EL11. That's enough.


----------



## UntilThen

I'm using the Fotons now. Trying to drive up the value of those tubes for Bcowen. Look at the glow from the Cossor 53ku rectifier and Mullard 6080 power tubes. Somehow I kept this Wa22 because it's the only amp I've left that link me with 6sn7 and 6as7 / 6080. I've gone on to KT88, EL34 and 300b.

At 12 noon on the volume dial with gain on the M51 set to +6dB, the LCD4 sounded ok. Ok maybe better than ok.  

Folks don't write off the Fotons. They actually sound like they are doing their job well in this setup.


----------



## UntilThen

These are the only 6sn7 I've left. Have to build from here again. Which is basically ground zero. Alright have to start somewhere.

Fotons, Sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome glass and Sylvania 6sn7gt smoke glass.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Mr Paladin... always reminds me of the Paladin I had when I played D2 and that was so looooong time ago. Anyway Paladin, you have some nice looking Incubus amps. Can you describe the tone of Melz 1578? In comparison to some famous tubes I've heard and owned. Such as Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates, Sylvania 6sn7w metal base and Mullard ECC33 / ECC35 / ECC31. Or even the Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass.


tone huh. Well those from the fifties and early sixties can be very accurate across the entire audio spectrum without weighing down any segment. Wonderful bass, mids, and especially highs. A couple have also rated toward the top in a 6sn7 equivalent shootout friends and I are doing and that is against most any tube you can name, bar none. Mind you this is in the preliminaries, final evaluation will be with around fifty people.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> tone huh. Well those from the fifties and early sixties can be very accurate across the entire audio spectrum without weighing down any segment. Wonderful bass, mids, and especially highs. A couple have also rated toward the top in a 6sn7 equivalent shootout friends and I are doing and that is against most any tube you can name, bar none. Mind you this is in the preliminaries, *final evaluation will be with around fifty people.*



Sound promising those Melz 1578 and 50 people? Well count me in as 51st and Bcowen as 52nd. Sounds like the United States of America.

Well I forgot I have these Tung Sol 6f8g black glass round plates rebranded Art (Garfunkel)  These are selling for https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/333518372841 and mine are NOS NIB but I've got about 20 hours on them now.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Sound promising those Melz 1578 and 50 people? Well count me in as 51st and Bcowen as 52nd. Sounds like the United States of America.
> 
> Well I forgot I have these Tung Sol 6f8g black glass round plates rebranded Art (Garfunkel)  These are selling for https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/333518372841 and mine are NOS NIB but I've got about 20 hours on them now.


We have in excess of 1500 tubes including equivalents. Most of the folks involved in the final testing are 20-30 years of age, a few in their forties, after age fifty people tend to lose an octave as I recall. Now as far as selection, only eight of us were involved to rate what we believe are the best 52.    To be towards the top tells you a little about some of the Melz, and we rate on 25 criteria.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I have a perfect pair that even the Queen wanted but I will exchange it for your pair of Western Electric 300b tubes. I will even pay shipping both ways. How's that for generosity?


LOL!  That's like saying you have a nice bicycle you'll trade for a Ferrari.  Despite my genuine appreciation for your generosity, I'll need to think about that until a second ago.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> When you're done with your lawn, do mine. What is that mini tube you have there? I'm looking for some renown 12au7, 12at7 and 12ax7.
> 
> By the way it's my day off so I'm going to the audio shop to audition a .... guess what?  This ! I want to know if that statement is true and the only thing I have for comparison is my iphone earbud.


It's a Foton 1539.  It's a premium version of a 6N5P or maybe a 6N1P....seems to be conflicting info out there.  Pinout is the same as a 6922, and the ratings are within 6SN7 parameters so it shouldn't cause a meltdown or house fire when used as such.  Unfortunately the mower got the best of me today and I haven't had time to listen.  Finally got the electrical problem solved and now the carburetor is leaking.  Things just don't last any more...I mean the thing is still fairly new at 20 years old, right?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> No that's no possible. 'My' GE are appreciating in value every minute.


That's because they're RCA's in GE clothing.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Sound promising those Melz 1578 and 50 people? Well count me in as 51st and Bcowen as 52nd. Sounds like the United States of America.
> 
> Well I forgot I have these Tung Sol 6f8g black glass round plates rebranded Art (Garfunkel)  These are selling for https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/333518372841 and mine are NOS NIB but I've got about 20 hours on them now.


Those Tung Sols are supposed to be the cat's meow.  I have a KenRad and a Sylvania which both sound nice (but not spectacular).  Haven't been able to find a Tung Sol for a price I could live with....yet.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> There woke up my overseas friends 😀😀😀 while am enjoying my day on the pool 😊


Don’t tempt @bcowen:  water & golf carts are like north & south poles of 🧲 🧲...


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> We have in excess of 1500 tubes including equivalents. Most of the folks involved in the final testing are 20-30 years of age, a few in their forties, after age fifty people tend to lose an octave as I recall. Now as far as selection, only eight of us were involved to rate what we believe are the best 52.    To be towards the top tells you a little about some of the Melz, and we rate on 25 criteria.



To evaluate 1500 tubes ? Hahaha.... I rather mow Bcowen's lawn. No that's an impossible thought.  

Me? I'm saving my ears for Fotons with He1000se. If I could only have one headphone, it would be this.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> To evaluate 1500 tubes ? Hahaha.... I rather mow Bcowen's lawn. No that's an impossible thought.
> 
> Me? I'm saving my ears for Fotons with He1000se. If I could only have one headphone, it would be this.


My choice is Focal Utopias but in a couple days I will hear ZMF Verites, my second choice. The only other headphone I wish to try.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> It's a Foton 1539.  It's a premium version of a 6N5P or maybe a 6N1P....seems to be conflicting info out there.  Pinout is the same as a 6922, and the ratings are within 6SN7 parameters so it shouldn't cause a meltdown or house fire when used as such.  Unfortunately the mower got the best of me today and I haven't had time to listen.  Finally got the electrical problem solved and now the carburetor is leaking.  Things just don't last any more...I mean the thing is still fairly new at 20 years old, right?


IIRC the 6N5P is supposed to be the equivialent of a 6CG7, which would explain the 6922 pinout and 6SN7 parameters.
Funny how that works out…

Isn't a 6N1P just a 6922 with a more demanding heater? <insert ex-wife joke here>


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> My choice is Focal Utopias but in a couple days I will hear ZMF Verites, my second choice. The only other headphone I wish to try.



I read your mind completely because I’m at the shop now comparing the Utopia with my He1000se using a Questyle CMA 12 Master.

I had the ZMF Verite LTD Open in Pheasant wood for more than a year.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> To evaluate 1500 tubes ? Hahaha.... I rather mow Bcowen's lawn. No that's an impossible thought.


Impossible because of the synthetic turf @bcowen had installed...chronic chore avoidance syndrome...


----------



## UntilThen

I am now going tubeless with Odin Empire Ears and Astell & Kern.

Never considered IEM before but this is very good. Outrageously good.

Are we still on 6sn7 thread ?


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I am now going tubeless with Odin Empire Ears and Astell & Kern.
> 
> Never considered IEM before but this is very good. Outrageously good.
> 
> Are we still on 6sn7 thread ?


You still have your eustachian tubes...


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> I read your mind completely because I’m at the shop now comparing the Utopia with my He1000se using a Questyle CMA 12 Master.
> 
> I had the ZMF Verite LTD Open in Pheasant wood for more than a year.


I have owned a lot of headphone amps but now I just match up with the Incubus and the sound is where I want it to be be. Unless the Verite performs better IMHO I will pass.


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> I have owned a lot of headphone amps but now I just match up with the Incubus and the sound is where I want it to be be. Unless the Verite performs better IMHO I will pass.



Headphones and amps pairing are a personal choice and I wouldn’t influence anyone on what they should like.

This short session between He1000se, Utopia and from memory my Verite Open, my preference are:-

He1000se, Utopia and Verite Open in that order.

Not sure why I sold off the Questyle CMA 12 because this Master version at the shop is really good with both headphones.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Headphones and amps pairing are a personal choice and I wouldn’t influence anyone on what they should like.
> 
> This short session between He1000se, Utopia and from memory my Verite Open, my preference are:-
> 
> ...


Each to their own, I do not care for Hifiman at all. Sennheiser would make my top three.


----------



## bcowen (May 30, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> IIRC the 6N5P is supposed to be the equivialent of a 6CG7, which would explain the 6922 pinout and 6SN7 parameters.
> Funny how that works out…
> 
> Isn't a 6N1P just a 6922 with a more demanding heater? <insert ex-wife joke here>


Yes, the more I read on them the more it looks like they are a close match to a 6N5P and/or 6CG7.  Some sellers list them as a 6N1P sub, but then some sellers are also very confused.  

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1539.html


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Impossible because of the synthetic turf @bcowen had installed...chronic chore avoidance syndrome...


LOL!  When I was in California, my back yard was about the size of a 2-car garage and the previous owner had put in synthetic.  It looked good from a distance, but felt like crap under your feet.  If it had been real grass it would've taken longer to get the mower started than to actually mow it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> That's because they're RCA's in GE clothing.


Now I feel much better  🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> I am now going tubeless with Odin Empire Ears and Astell & Kern.
> 
> Never considered IEM before but this is very good. Outrageously good.
> 
> Are we still on 6sn7 thread ?


Well you can't go wrong with A&K products, I have the ak70 mkii with the Westone UM Pro 50 with 5 drivers as well as Brainwavz B400 and it rocks


----------



## FLTWS (May 31, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I read your mind completely because I’m at the shop now comparing the Utopia with my He1000se using a Questyle CMA 12 Master.
> 
> I had the ZMF Verite LTD Open in Pheasant wood for more than a year.


Interesting. I'd like your thoughts on comparing the two. Still "He1000se, Utopia and Verite Open in that order." (?)

Speaking of headphones, I previously owned the Utopia and really, really liked the sound and do miss it at times, my large-ish ears do not.
I auditioned one of the HE1000 versions say 3 to 4 years ago and was favorably impressed and they were comfortable and had a lot of qualities that liked. But I was not overly impressed with the build quality versus price. I ended up with the Abyss Phi which I still have, and still like my SENN HD800 and HD800S.
But my go-to champion currently is the RAAL SR1a, but I'm still in the hunt for one more option, well always in the hunt actually.
(and I've always wanted to get some listening time with the WOO's, I always like the look, point to point wiring, and those glass bulb heaters of course).

And now we return you to your regularly scheduled programing.
"Tube_talk"


----------



## UntilThen

FLTWS said:


> Interesting. I'd like your thoughts on comparing the two. Still "He1000se, Utopia and Verite Open in that order." (?)
> 
> Speaking of headphones, I previously owned the Utopia and really, really liked the sound and do miss it at times, my large-ish ears do not.
> I auditioned one of the HE1000 versions say 3 to 4 years ago and was favorably impressed and they were comfortable and had a lot of qualities that liked. But I was not overly impressed with the build quality versus price. I ended up with the Abyss Phi which I still have, and still like my SENN HD800 and HD800S.
> ...



You're looking at very high end headphones there. I won't comment on headphones here except to say that if you like HD800 and HD800S then you will also love He1000se. I still have HD800 and also LCD4.

Abyss 1266 TC and RAAL Sr1a are headphones that interest me but I am in no hurry.


----------



## Paladin79

I got my Cary amp going but once again I had help. Time to rotate it back into my system.

I am also locating some 6SN7’s to send out with an upgraded Incubus. Time to start buying again, I am running out of tubes I want to give away.


----------



## FLTWS

What went wrong with the Cary?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Paladin79 said:


> I got my Cary amp going but once again I had help. Time to rotate it back into my system.
> 
> I am also locating some 6SN7’s to send out with an upgraded Incubus. Time to start buying again, I am running out of tubes I want to give away.


I see you had a highly qualified Supervisor there making sure that you do everything correctly.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> What went wrong with the Cary?


I was getting a slight hum on one channel so I swapped tubes then checked all ground connections, cleaned and tightened all tube socket and all is well. I just swapped left and right channel tubes.

I checked capacitors while I had it open and they are spot on.


----------



## Paladin79

ThanatosVI said:


> I see you had a highly qualified Supervisor there making sure that you do everything correctly.


Finnegan likes to steal my chair.😺😺😺


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


>


Is that Finnegan’s libation at the far right?....


----------



## FLTWS

jonathan c said:


> Is that Finnegan’s libation at the far right?....


That looks like Catteux Margaux, probably the April 2021 vintage.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 31, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Is that Finnegan’s libation at the far right?...



Yep, some Arrogant person Ale we enjoyed during the Indy 500, a short wide glass allows him easier access.

I am currently listening to the amp formerly known as Cowen in my shop, just a Pono player source with Infinity speakers but quite a nice sound.😛


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Yep, some Arrogant person Ale we enjoyed during the Indy 500, a short wide glass allows him easier access.
> 
> I am currently listening to the amp formerly known as Cowen in my shop, just a Pono player source with Infinity speakers but quite a nice sound.😛


I notice the presence of a fire extinguisher in the background---is this a Cowen performance feature?


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I notice the presence of a fire extinguisher in the background---is this a Cowen performance feature?


I usually get out a fire extinguisher any time the Cowen name is evoked.   Just as a safety precaution mind you.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yep, some Arrogant person Ale we enjoyed during the Indy 500, a short wide glass allows him easier access.
> 
> I am currently listening to the amp formerly known as Cowen in my shop, just a Pono player source with Infinity speakers but quite a nice sound.😛


It's nice to have an amp named for you (even formerly).  And I'm hoping @Ripper2860 truly appreciates an ale named for him.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I usually get out a fire extinguisher any time the Cowen name is evoked.   Just as a safety precaution mind you.


With age comes wisdom.  

Were those GE rectifiers I spied in the Cary?  Seriously, just wondering and if so how they sound compared to what you had in there previously.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 31, 2021)

bcowen said:


> With age comes wisdom.
> 
> Were those GE rectifiers I spied in the Cary?  Seriously, just wondering and if so how they sound compared to what you had in there previously.


Those are Tung Sol rectifiers and RCA military issue 6SL7's, but I seem to have some GE's around here that someone gifted me.  

Next weekend we should have quite a crowd at my place (mostly outside) but several audiophiles will be here as well so I am hooking up a couple systems to show off some of my work besides the system I built for my wife.


----------



## mayurs

My humble fledgling collection of 6sn7 tubes. Have a few more in transit but out of these those Raytheon VT231s are by far my favourite drivers especially with the Tungsol 6080 for my HD650.


----------



## bcowen

mayurs said:


> My humble fledgling collection of 6sn7 tubes. Have a few more in transit but out of these those Raytheon VT231s are by far my favourite drivers especially with the Tungsol 6080 for my HD650.


Interesting.  The ones you pictured have the flat ladder plates.  Have you tried the T-plate versions?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Those are Tung Sol rectifiers and RCA military issue 6SL7's, but I seem to have some GE's around here that someone gifted me.
> 
> Next weekend we should have quite a crowd at my place (mostly outside) but several audiophiles will be here as well so I am hooking up a couple systems to show off some of my work besides the system I built for my wife.


What a nice person to gift you those.    And RCA 6SL7's?  Or Sylvania?  Don't remember sending any RCA's, but then I don't remember what I had for dinner last night either...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What a nice person to gift you those.    And RCA 6SL7's?  Or Sylvania?  Don't remember sending any RCA's, but then I don't remember what I had for dinner last night either...


RCA, I found those myself but you gave me lots of other tubes for the Cary, for a while there I collected some 6SL7 pairs. You gave me the Sylvania 6SN7W's and Raytheon, and CBS/Hytron.  This was when my Freya plus kept going down and my tube tester was down, I needed some pairs I could count on and you were the man. Highs coming through the Freya and Cary combo are now to die for.

Speaking of 6sn7's, other than one table build I am about ready to modify a DarkVoice and make it so pretty, it will have to sound good.


----------



## mayurs

bcowen said:


> Interesting.  The ones you pictured have the flat ladder plates.  Have you tried the T-plate versions?


The T Plates are available too but I did not get those simply coz I read here and else where that the T plates aren't as nice as the flat plates. Do you think they are worth trying I could get a pair within a week. I liked the flat plates Raytheons so much that I have 2 pairs as spare.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I usually get out a fire extinguisher any time the Cowen name is evoked.   Just as a safety precaution mind you.


You better keep it as close as possible to the Cowen refurbished tester 😉😉


----------



## HTSkywalker

mayurs said:


> The T Plates are available too but I did not get those simply coz I read here and else where that the T plates aren't as nice as the flat plates. Do you think they are worth trying I could get a pair within a week. I liked the flat plates Raytheons so much that I have 2 pairs as spare.


Were you able to compare the T plates Raytheon to the flat ones ? The T Plates are so open and smooth


----------



## bcowen

mayurs said:


> The T Plates are available too but I did not get those simply coz I read here and else where that the T plates aren't as nice as the flat plates. Do you think they are worth trying I could get a pair within a week. I liked the flat plates Raytheons so much that I have 2 pairs as spare.


Personally, I like the T-plates more than the flat plates.  But that's just me.  Be interested to hear your thoughts if you get some T-plates to compare.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I usually get out a fire extinguisher any time the Cowen name is evoked.   Just as a safety precaution mind you.


At least you do not need flotation devices....


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> At least you do not need flotation devices....


Those are in the garage.  As are the defibrillator, stretcher, and 2000-piece first aid kit....just in case I come to visit sometime.


----------



## bcowen (May 31, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> RCA, I found those myself but you gave me lots of other tubes for the Cary, for a while there I collected some 6SL7 pairs. You gave me the Sylvania 6SN7W's and Raytheon, and CBS/Hytron.  This was when my Freya plus kept going down and my tube tester was down, I needed some pairs I could count on and you were the man. Highs coming through the Freya and Cary combo are now to die for.
> 
> Speaking of 6sn7's, other than one table build I am about ready to modify a DarkVoice and make it so pretty, it will have to sound good.


Take good care of those Ei's.  Seems the price has gone up a tad:  





Or, you could get a set of these Sovteks that the guy is trying to sell as Ei's a lot cheaper.  Of particular hilarity is that "6550B Made in Russia" is silkscreened right on the bottle.  Or the guy isn't aware that the former Yugoslavia was never part of Russia, or the USSR for that matter.  Reading is so much work, apparently. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353512064836?hash=item524ef60744:g:lmgAAOSwMTBgkWo-


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Take good care of those Ei's.  Seems the price has gone up a tad:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, $895 used lol. I do love the sound of those and have never changed them out.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Reading is so much work, apparently.


That calls to mind the notion: “this hotel would be so easy to manage if nobody stayed here”...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> That calls to mind the notion: “this hotel would be so easy to manage if nobody stayed here”...


LOL!  Never thought of it that way.  My (new) job would be a lot easier if I didn't have to actually work.  Into each life a little rain must fall, I suppose.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Never thought of it that way.  My (new) job would be a lot easier if I didn't have to actually work.  Into each life a little rain must fall, I suppose.


No rain, no rainbow, no pot o’gold, McCowen!


----------



## UntilThen

FLTWS said:


> What went wrong with the Cary?


Is Cary the name of the cat?


----------



## FLTWS

I think the cats name is "S"cary?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 1, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Is Cary the name of the cat?


Cary is a company originally out of Cary North Carolina who still build amplifiers and DAC’s. I believe it was started by Dennis Hadd. I have a 27 year old push pull class A amp from them. You see their equipment come up on Ebay from time to time and it is still highly desirable IMHO. My Cowen knows far more about the company than I do.


Finnegan is the cat.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Personally, I like the T-plates more than the flat plates.  But that's just me.  Be interested to hear your thoughts if you get some T-plates to compare.


In fact I also loved the T plates but now am interested in checking some  flat plates too 😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Never thought of it that way.  My (new) job would be a lot easier if I didn't have to actually work.  Into each life a little rain must fall, I suppose.


Thought saying “do you like some fries with your order “ was an easy job 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> Is Cary the name of the cat?


THE cat is named Finnegan and she is our tube buddy 😀😀😀


----------



## mayurs

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact I also loved the T plates but now am interested in checking some  flat plates too 😂


Let me order a pair of T plates and check. 

Meanwhile are these Westinghouse 6sn7s any good. No info on them too on the first page of this thread.


----------



## Ripper2860

They're nice.  Not at the level of the D getter variant, but the O getter are very close from what I've read from a trusted HF'er.  I own several D getter versions and they rank as a favorite -- even over the Ken-Rad.  I know - HERESY!!


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Thought saying “would you like some fries unused GE tubes with your order” was an easy job 😂😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> THE cat is named Finnegan and she is our tube buddy 😀😀😀


She?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> She?


Someone needs to check 🤣🤣🤣 but most probably a he as no female I know of is interested in tubes


----------



## Varejao17 (Jun 1, 2021)

Hey all - what’s the conventional wisdom of mixing different types of Sylvania bottom-getter 6SN7GT?  I have two which have slightly different construction (one has two hole T-plates, the other has three hole T-plates but the date code doesn’t read as 1952).  They measure as matched (3000 umho).

This is in the gain positions of a Schiit Freya+.


----------



## Galapac

HTSkywalker said:


> Someone needs to check 🤣🤣🤣 but most probably a he as no female I know of is interested in tubes


That is an interesting thought...there has got to be a female on here interested in tubes. C'mon...identify yourself, lol,


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 1, 2021)

Galapac said:


> That is an interesting thought...there has got to be a female on here interested in tubes. C'mon...identify yourself, lol,


Especially considering that women typically have better hearing than men....making the sonic difference between VT and SS all the more apparent. [Please keep the spousal selective deafness commentary to a minimum...😉]


----------



## L0rdGwyn

My girlfriend is into tubes  by osmosis, of course.  She could probably build a serviceable amplifier with how much I rant to her about the things.


----------



## UntilThen

Galapac said:


> That is an interesting thought...there has got to be a female on here interested in tubes. C'mon...identify yourself, lol,



I dunno. All these while I thought Bcowen is a gorgeous dame. No? 

Now I've taken jokes too far....


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 1, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> THE cat is named Finnegan and she is our tube buddy 😀😀😀


Finnegan is male. As far as females and audio, Audiogal currently has one of my Incubus amps and she gave me a very good audio description of tubes I included with the amp. Those included a Melz 1578, Tung Sol black and grey glass, and even a GE 5998.😀


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I dunno. All these while I thought Bcowen is a gorgeous dame. No?
> 
> Now I've taken jokes too far....


Do you let @bcowen play from the red tees?


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is *THE* cat.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> That is an interesting thought...there has got to be a female on here interested in tubes. C'mon...identify yourself, lol,


It's very easy as just brining up this argument in the thread, we will definitely hear from any "dormant cell" and the comment won't be funny or friendly (been there, heard this)😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Especially considering that women typically have better hearing than men....making the sonic difference between VT and SS all the more apparent. [Please keep the spousal selective deafness commentary to a minimum...😉]


Selective deafness "is the ability not to hear a very close frequency while still being able to hear it from a long distance even in sleep mode" (quoted from Wikipedia, for safety reasons) 😃😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

L0rdGwyn said:


> My girlfriend is into tubes  by osmosis, of course.  She could probably build a serviceable amplifier with how much I rant to her about the things.


Wait till her status change to "THE wife" and re-check her tolerance threshold when it comes to tubes (you have been warned brother) 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan is male. As far as females and audio, Audiogal currently has one of my Incubus amps and she gave me a very good audio description of tubes I included with the amp. Those included a Melz 1578, Tung Sol black and grey glass, and even a GE 5998.😀


@AudioGal  we summon you in case you need to let go some tubes or the whole Incubus 😀


----------



## L0rdGwyn

HTSkywalker said:


> Wait till her status change to "THE wife" and re-check her tolerance threshold when it comes to tubes (you have been warned brother) 😁😁



Going on a decade so the "girlfriend" title hardly seems relevant anymore lol so far she has tolerated a living room stereo system with a tube amplifier, tube DAC and tube phono, a bedroom stereo system with another tube amplifier, my desk with a tube headphone amp, and an electronics workstation in the basement where I...build more tube amps  am I definitely at the edge of spouse acceptance factor LOL.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 2, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> @AudioGal  we summon you in case you need to let go some tubes or the whole Incubus 😀


The Incubus and tubes should be on the way to California soon and another listener. If it arrives back in this area I will send it on to @jonathan c for a listen. He seems like a fine upstanding guy as opposed to the reprobate who resides in North Carolina.  

This Incubus and those tubes. I will leave any tube and amp descriptions up to @AudioGal.


----------



## HTSkywalker

L0rdGwyn said:


> Going on a decade so the "girlfriend" title hardly seems relevant anymore lol so far she has tolerated a living room stereo system with a tube amplifier, tube DAC and tube phono, a bedroom stereo system with another tube amplifier, my desk with a tube headphone amp, and an electronics workstation in the basement where I...build more tube amps  am I definitely at the edge of spouse acceptance factor LOL.


Well you are pushing it but your GF sounds a keeper


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> The Incubus and tubes should be on the way to California soon and another listener. If it arrives back in this area I will send it on to @jonathan c for a listen. He seems like a fine upstanding guy as opposed to the reprobate who resides in North Carolina.
> 
> This Incubus and those tubes. I will leave any tube and amp descriptions up to @AudioGal.


"the reprobate who resides in North Carolina. "
I felt the honeymoon would be over with the tester reaching your door 😛😛


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> "the reprobate who resides in North Carolina. "
> I felt the honeymoon would be over with the tester reaching your door 😛😛


He does not show up till after 5PM my time so I can say anything I want till then.🤪🤪 It’s not like I go to where he works and slap the corn dog out of his hand.


----------



## UntilThen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Going on a decade so the "girlfriend" title hardly seems relevant anymore lol so far she has tolerated a living room stereo system with a tube amplifier, tube DAC and tube phono, a bedroom stereo system with another tube amplifier, my desk with a tube headphone amp, and an electronics workstation in the basement where I...build more tube amps  am I definitely at the edge of spouse acceptance factor LOL.



Simply gorgeous setups Keenan. I envy you.


----------



## whirlwind

L0rdGwyn said:


> Going on a decade so the "girlfriend" title hardly seems relevant anymore lol so far she has tolerated a living room stereo system with a tube amplifier, tube DAC and tube phono, a bedroom stereo system with another tube amplifier, my desk with a tube headphone amp, and an electronics workstation in the basement where I...build more tube amps  am I definitely at the edge of spouse acceptance factor LOL.


Marry that girl!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The Incubus and tubes should be on the way to California soon and another listener. If it arrives back in this area I will send it on to @jonathan c for a listen. He seems like a fine upstanding guy as opposed to the reprobate who resides in *Texas*.


Sigh.  Fixing your posts has become a full time job.  No rest for the weary, I suppose.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sigh.  Fixing your posts has become a full time job.  No rest for the weary, I suppose.


Oops I get Texas and North Carolina mixed up all the time. NC has a phenomenal bball coach who is going to retire, next year.😀😀😀 Texas can do bbq that does not involve a whole pig?


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Sigh.  Fixing your posts has become a full time job.  No rest for the weary, I suppose.


When did you move to Texas? 😝

(There goes the neighborhood.   Looks like it's time for me to move.).   😒


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> When did you move to Texas? 😝
> 
> (There goes the neighborhood.   Looks like it's time for me to move.).   😒


I think you should move to Indiana.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll cut you some slack.  I know you're heartbroken and a bit out of sorts that coach K is retiring. 😏


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> When did you move to Texas? 😝
> 
> (There goes the neighborhood.   Looks like it's time for me to move.).   😒


This state is not big enough for the two of you....the new western classic....Tube-out at the DV corral....


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll cut you some slack.  I know you're heartbroken and a bit out of sorts that coach K is retiring. 😏


Hint: maybe K needs a golf chauffeur....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I think you should move to Indiana.


That way you can ask him: Hoosier Daddy?😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

whirlwind said:


> Marry that girl!


That would be the turning point of the tube friendly GF 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Sigh.  Fixing your posts has become a full time job.  No rest for the weary, I suppose.


Now am wondering if the tester went on a round trip originally to North Carolina before correcting the address and resend to Texas 😆😆😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> When did you move to Texas? 😝
> 
> (There goes the neighborhood.   Looks like it's time for me to move.).   😒


With whole pigs being grilled and @bcowen within reach for tubes exchange and testers tuning, it makes Texas a solid choice 😎😎😎😎😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ordered this pair yesterday, Raytheon black ladder plates with extra support rods.
After extensive testing being conducted by Jeff @ Lowtechelec comparing it to mostly all Matched Pairs he have in his stock and it proved to be the cleanest and best sounding. Will try in a Yaqin SD-CD3 tube buffer which should reach me soon.


----------



## JTbbb

HTSkywalker said:


> Ordered this pair yesterday, Raytheon black ladder plates with extra support rods.
> After extensive testing being conducted by Jeff @ Lowtechelec comparing it to mostly all Matched Pairs he have in his stock and it proved to be the cleanest and best sounding. Will try in a Yaqin SD-CD3 tube buffer which should reach me soon.



I really like my Raytheon’s too, and prefer them over quite a few others.


----------



## HTSkywalker

JTbbb said:


> I really like my Raytheon’s too, and prefer them over quite a few others.


You should also try the  T Plates, wonderful sounding and it did lead me to like the Raytheon


----------



## HTSkywalker

A technical question 🙄
since 6SN7 tubes have dual triodes for left and right channels, what is the benefit of using 2 x 6SN7 tubes in an amp architecture ?


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jun 3, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> A technical question 🙄
> since 6SN7 tubes have dual triodes for left and right channels, what is the benefit of using 2 x 6SN7 tubes in an amp architecture ?



It depends on the circuit.  If the two sections are run in series, now you have two voltage gain stages - double the gain, double the voltage swing into the output stage, more power if the output tube can swing the voltage without clipping.

If the sections are run in parallel, the voltage gain of a single section will be maintained, but the output impedance will be halved.  This can be beneficial when driving the input capacitance of the output stage  - a low pass RC filter is formed form the output impedance of the input stage and the input capacitance of the following stage.  The lower the output impedance of the input stage, the higher the rolloff frequency of the filter, ideally outside the audio band, >20kHz.  This is only an issue with those output tubes with relatively high input capacitance, 300B is a good example.

Yet another thing you can do with a dual section triode is run one section as a voltage gain stage in series with the second section as a cathode follower.  Similar to the parallel scenario above, you will get the voltage gain of a single triode, but a much lower output impedance than running in parallel, due to the cathode follower buffer.  A cathode follower does not add any additional voltage gain, it operates at near unity gain, gain of 1, but will actually be less than 1 in reality.  The same benefits of low output impedance apply here.  It will be much lower than a parallel section dual triode though, it can be approximated by 1/gm of the tube at its operating point (gm = transconductance).

You can even run both sections as cathode followers in parallel - each section's output impedance approximated by 1/gm as before, now divide that in half to account for both sections in parallel.  The disadvantage here is there is no voltage gain!  So this is uncommon unless you need a pretty hefty buffer to drive an output stage - it would require an additional voltage gain stage before it.

Yet ANOTHER thing you can do is run both triodes together in a SRPP configuration, which has similar benefits to the "voltage gain stage in series with cathode follower" setup, but I won't get into the details as it starts to get pretty technical.

Was there a specific amplifier you had in mind?


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 3, 2021)

L0rdGwyn said:


> It depends on the circuit.  If the two sections are run in series, now you have two voltage gain stages - double the gain, double the voltage swing into the output stage, more power if the output tube can swing the voltage without clipping.
> 
> If the sections are run in parallel, the voltage gain of a single section will be maintained, but the output impedance will be halved.  This can be beneficial when driving the input capacitance of the output stage  - a low pass RC filter is formed form the output impedance of the input stage and the input capacitance of the following stage.  The lower the output impedance of the input stage, the higher the rolloff frequency of the filter, ideally outside the audio band, >20kHz.  This is only an issue with those output tubes with relatively high input capacitance, 300B is a good example.
> 
> ...


That was a nice and technically detailed description of dual 6SN7 architecture, the amp I already ordered is a cathode follower and exactly how you describe it above. Thanks, let me know your opinion on it please:

https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...upgrade-hi-end-buffer-processor-for-cd-player

I checked with the manufacturer and this is the latest version with few upgraded components over the previous versions, one of which is the previous versions used to send voltage spikes upon switching off through RCAs (using bleeding resistors). As I will put it between a Cambridge CXN and a Mcintosch amp which both I don't want to risk burning.


----------



## mayurs

L0rdGwyn said:


> It depends on the circuit.  If the two sections are run in series, now you have two voltage gain stages - double the gain, double the voltage swing into the output stage, more power if the output tube can swing the voltage without clipping.
> 
> If the sections are run in parallel, the voltage gain of a single section will be maintained, but the output impedance will be halved.  This can be beneficial when driving the input capacitance of the output stage  - a low pass RC filter is formed form the output impedance of the input stage and the input capacitance of the following stage.  The lower the output impedance of the input stage, the higher the rolloff frequency of the filter, ideally outside the audio band, >20kHz.  This is only an issue with those output tubes with relatively high input capacitance, 300B is a good example.
> 
> ...



Very informative. Thank you. Can you please tell what configuration does a Feliks Euforia operate. Thanks in advance. I always wondered why some OTLs like DV, BH Crack only had one driver tube while my Feliks Euforia has a pair of these.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

HTSkywalker said:


> That was a nice and technically detailed description of dual 6SN7 architecture, the amp I already ordered have is a cathode follower and exactly how you describe it above. Thanks, let me know your opinion on it please:
> 
> https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...upgrade-hi-end-buffer-processor-for-cd-player
> 
> I checked with the manufacturer and this is the latest version with few upgraded components over the previous versions, one of which is the previous versions used to send voltage spikes upon switching off through RCAs (using bleeding resistors). As I will put it between a Cambridge CXN and a Mcintosch amp which both I don't want to risk burning.



Well, it's hard to glean much about the design without seeing a schematic, but it sounds like they are running the two 6N8P / 6SN7 as parallel cathode followers.  This product is purely a buffer - it will provide an easy load for the input device and a low output impedance to drive the output device.  It will also add some small degree of second harmonic distortion.  There will be a small amount of voltage gain lost - the ideal cathode follower operates at unity gain, but in reality it might be gain of 0.85 or 0.9.

I will say that unless it is something very out of the ordinary, most gear is designed to have a sufficiently low output impedance a high enough input impedance such that they will pair well with just about anything you connect them to.  But who knows!  Maybe putting this cathode follower buffer in between the two will have some subjective benefit, it's hard to say, I guess you will have to try it out and see  of course if you like the sound of second harmonic distortion, what some people call "tube sound", it might be an upgrade!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

mayurs said:


> Very informative. Thank you. Can you please tell what configuration does a Feliks Euforia operate. Thanks in advance. I always wondered why some OTLs like DV, BH Crack only had one driver tube while my Feliks Euforia has a pair of these.



Let me find a picture of the circuit, I'm certain a schematic won't be available...


----------



## L0rdGwyn

@mayurs they are running both sections of the 6SN7 as voltage gain stages in parallel (known as a common cathode amplifier).  Looks like they are using an active load on the 6SN7 gain stage, likely a transistor-based constant current source, the stage is then direct-coupled to the grid of the 6AS7G output stage.  The output is run as a pair of parallel cathode followers.  Also looks like they are using some sort of series voltage regulator in the power supply.

So it goes: CCS loaded parallel 6SN7 gain stage > direct coupled to parallel 6AS7G cathode follower output stage.

Given the 6AS7G output stage is in parallel, output impedance is probably something like 30-40ohms.


----------



## HTSkywalker

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well, it's hard to glean much about the design without seeing a schematic, but it sounds like they are running the two 6N8P / 6SN7 as parallel cathode followers.  This product is purely a buffer - it will provide an easy load for the input device and a low output impedance to drive the output device.  It will also add some small degree of second harmonic distortion.  There will be a small amount of voltage gain lost - the ideal cathode follower operates at unity gain, but in reality it might be gain of 0.85 or 0.9.
> 
> I will say that unless it is something very out of the ordinary, most gear is designed to have a sufficiently low output impedance a high enough input impedance such that they will pair well with just about anything you connect them to.  But who knows!  Maybe putting this cathode follower buffer in between the two will have some subjective benefit, it's hard to say, I guess you will have to try it out and see  of course if you like the sound of second harmonic distortion, what some people call "tube sound", it might be an upgrade!


Am already using the Darkvoice as a preamp adding tube warmth to my amp which I really like but it also adds gain and a potentiometer in between, after checking for dedicated cathode follower buffers I ran into the Yaqin with around 10 years of R&D in this specific buffer. Although it's a Chinese amp but reviews are good and given the price I was tempted to try as I have a good bunch of 6SN7.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Attached is the schematic of the Yaqin


----------



## L0rdGwyn

HTSkywalker said:


> Am already using the Darkvoice as a preamp adding tube warmth to my amp which I really like but it also adds gain and a potentiometer in between, after checking for dedicated cathode follower buffers I ran into the Yaqin with around 10 years of R&D in this specific buffer. Although it's a Chinese amp but reviews are good and given the price I was tempted to try as I have a good bunch of 6SN7.



Well it's worth a shot!  Pretty cheap either way.



HTSkywalker said:


> Attached is the schematic of the Yaqin



Yup, it's a pair of parallel cathode followers with a simple CRC passive power supply.


----------



## HTSkywalker

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well it's worth a shot!  Pretty cheap either way.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, it's a pair of parallel cathode followers with a simple CRC passive power supply.


Looks like a clean straight design


----------



## Paladin79

This weekend I will be adding some unusual Melz 1578 solid plate 1958's and Tung Sol 5998's to two of my Incubus amps for a comparison between ZMF Verite's and Focal Utopias. (I already have a pretty good idea of the winner but this is fun anyway.)

I should have a distinguished assortment of listeners and as many as five systems setup, mostly class A, tubes and then a thing I built for my wife that should go unmentioned.   This is supposed to be a mini open house for my wife's pottery studio but I should be able to sneak a few of the husbands inside for some serious listening.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> This weekend I will be adding some unusual Melz 1578 solid plate 1958's and Tung Sol 5998's to two of my Incubus amps for a comparison between ZMF Verite's and Focal Utopias. (I already have a pretty good idea of the winner but this is fun anyway.)
> 
> I should have a distinguished assortment of listeners and as many as five systems setup, mostly class A, tubes and then a thing I built for my wife that should go unmentioned.   This is supposed to be a mini open house for my wife's pottery studio but I should be able to sneak a few of the husbands inside for some serious listening.


Verite open or closed? I have both now and love them for different reasons as well as the Utopia.
If you are comparing the VO to Utopia you may find that the VO is a warmer headphone in the upper range but the Utopia is still a detail monster.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 3, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Verite open or closed? I have both now and love them for different reasons as well as the Utopia.
> If you are comparing the VO to Utopia you may find that the VO is a warmer headphone in the upper range but the Utopia is still a detail monster.


VO, I rarely do closed and having listened for a few days myself I kind of know the differences. I even went as far as adapting a DanaCable Lazuli Reference for use with the VO in an attempt to level the playing field.😎 

I will get a few other opinions out of fairness including a former music professor who taught trumpet soloists and a couple other friends.

If I have time I will build identical cables for each so those are less of a factor. 8 strand OCC copper most likely.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> This weekend I will be adding some unusual Melz 1578 solid plate 1958's and Tung Sol 5998's to two of my Incubus amps for a comparison between ZMF Verite's and Focal Utopias. (I already have a pretty good idea of the winner but this is fun anyway.)
> 
> I should have a distinguished assortment of listeners and as many as five systems setup, mostly class A, tubes and then a thing I built for my wife that should go unmentioned.   This is supposed to be a mini open house for my wife's pottery studio but I should be able to sneak a few of the husbands inside for some serious listening.


Am sure you will be doing the husbands a favor especially if you serve single malts, probably recruit some proteges 😃😃


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am sure you will be doing the husbands a favor especially if you serve single malts, probably recruit some proteges 😃😃


It will be hot then so we are more apt to do sparkling white wine, beer, water, margaritas as well as fruits, cheeses, and bread baguettes. I was also given some incredible smoked salmon.😛


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> It will be hot then so we are more apt to do sparkling white wine, beer, water, margaritas as well as fruits, cheeses, and bread baguettes. I was also given some incredible smoked salmon.😛


Congrats on the official pottery shed grand opening then 🍾🍾
Some posted photos would be nice for the non invitees 😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> This weekend I will be adding some unusual Melz 1578 solid plate 1958's and Tung Sol 5998's to two of my Incubus amps for a comparison between ZMF Verite's and Focal Utopias. (I already have a pretty good idea of the winner but this is fun anyway.)
> 
> I should have a distinguished assortment of listeners and as many as five systems setup, mostly class A, tubes and then a thing I built for my wife that should go unmentioned.   This is supposed to be a mini open house for my wife's pottery studio but I should be able to sneak a few of the husbands inside for some serious listening.


Subtitle:     “Melz n’ Maltz”


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Congrats on the official pottery shed grand opening then 🍾🍾
> Some posted photos would be nice for the non invitees 😂😂


We will see, I am more apt to post audio photos, maybe a hot looking woman on occasion, but that is about it.😎


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> We will see, I am more apt to post audio photos, maybe a hot looking woman on occasion, but that is about it.😎


All of the above plus the salmons 😍😍😍


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Subtitle:     “Melz n’ Maltz”


No lol, well maybe.🥸


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> Subtitle:     “Melz n’ Maltz”


“Pot o’ Tubes Gala”


----------



## Mr Trev

HTSkywalker said:


> Congrats on the official pottery shed grand opening then 🍾🍾
> Some posted photos would be nice for the non invitees 😂😂


Speaking of sheds, I thought of Paladin when I first read this…
https://newatlas.com/tiny-houses/cuprinol-shed-of-year-2021-finalists/


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Speaking of sheds, I thought of Paladin when I first read this…
> https://newatlas.com/tiny-houses/cuprinol-shed-of-year-2021-finalists/


Well the inside of ours is like this.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Well the inside of ours is like this.


NIce. But it ain't no Clutterbuck Lodge


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 3, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> NIce. But it ain't no Clutterbuck Lodge


Lol sorry. I was shooting for zero maintenance. How about the music system and shelf I built? All exposed wood is tiger maple.


----------



## Smallpie (Jun 3, 2021)

I’d like to try a 5692 tube in my GOTL. Does anybody have one I could buy?


----------



## Paladin79

Akiravelvet said:


> I’d like to try a 5692 tube in my GOTL. Does anybody have one I could buy or borrow?


I have some but they are paired so I best save them.


----------



## Smallpie

Is this a good black plate 5692? Has the red base, don’t know the year made. Is it worth$100?


----------



## Ripper2860

If it is a red-base RCA (and it looks like one), it is a very fair price at $100.  Whether it is worth it is up to you, your gear, and your sound preferences, however many would likely say it is!


----------



## Smallpie

I use a GOTL and have been using a rca 5691 lately but always wanted to try a 5692. There are just a lot of different 5692’s and a lot of different years and want to get a good one


----------



## jonathan c

Akiravelvet said:


> I use a GOTL and have been using a rca 5691 lately but always wanted to try a 5692. There are just a lot of different 5692’s and a lot of different years and want to get a good one


CBS/Hytron 5692 is excellent; my favourite in the 6SN7 category. They tend to be $$$. Check Upscale Audio website...


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 4, 2021)

Akiravelvet said:


> Is this a good black plate 5692? Has the red base, don’t know the year made. Is it worth$100?


I believe those are the RCA W Milspec series and they are good performers for the price


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> CBS/Hytron 5692 is excellent; my favourite in the 6SN7 category. They tend to be $$$. Check Upscale Audio website...


No tubes are expensive as long as the price is not broadcasted at home 😛


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 4, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> No tubes are expensive as long as the price is not broadcasted at home 😛


I am fortunate not to have to worry about that, my wife knows I make money with hobbies.   Years ago I paid $2,000 for a computer, disassembled the monitor and started a business that supported my family for ten years, and that business led me into my current position that has supported us for another 15 years. Now when I retire one day, I can fall back on amp designing and building and take in at least 8K a month if I work at it.

Oh yeah here is one of the gentlemen who should be hearing the ZMF VO and Utopia tomorrow.



He is also an EE who has worked in recording as i recall.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am fortunate not to have to worry about that, my wife knows I make money with hobbies.   Years ago I paid $2,000 for a computer, disassembled the monitor and started a business that supported my family for ten years, and that business led me into my current position that has supported us for another 15 years. Now when I retire one day, I can fall back on amp designing and building and take in at least 8K a month if I work at it.


My problem is I have quite a collection of "not so cheap" hobbies, Astronomy ( Takahachi, Celestron and Meade telescopes all the way to 14" aperture with deep space imaging cams), An Audyssey DSX 11.2 (Dolby Atmos etc.) Home theater continuously upgraded, RC scale airplanes and helis (as large as @Paladin tube hoard, kinda) as well my ever growing music gear.
So having most delivery carriers know me by the name and frequently at my door is somehow a bit over.  

Hello, My name is HTSkywalker and I know am sick and need professional help 😀😀😀


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> My problem is I have quite a collection of "not so cheap" hobbies, Astronomy ( Takahachi, Celestron and Meade telescopes all the way to 14" aperture with deep space imaging cams), An Audyssey DSX 11.2 (Dolby Atmos etc.) Home theater continuously upgraded, RC scale airplanes and helis (as large as @Paladin tube hoard, kinda) as well my ever growing music gear.
> So having most delivery carriers know me by the name and frequently at my door is somehow a bit over.
> 
> Hello, My name is HTSkywalker and I know am sick and need professional help 😀😀😀


I bought my wife a Celestron but I am more into chronographs and investments. I have very little in a 7.2 surround system because of some of my contacts so it barely counts as a money pit.


----------



## HTSkywalker

BTW @bcowen new job is keeping him away for long from the forum 🤨🤨🤨


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> BTW @bcowen new job is keeping him away for long from the forum 🤨🤨🤨


Well yeah, he has not settled in where he can sneak off and take naps and play on his cell phone yet. I give it till Monday and he will be back to his old self.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Well yeah, he has not settled in where he can sneak off and take naps and play on his cell phone yet. I give it till Monday and he will be back to his old self.


Or maybe he is already napping and snoring at work, either way he should be back by Monday 😂😂


----------



## whirlwind

HTSkywalker said:


> My problem is I have quite a collection of "not so cheap" hobbies, Astronomy ( Takahachi, Celestron and Meade telescopes all the way to 14" aperture with deep space imaging cams), An Audyssey DSX 11.2 (Dolby Atmos etc.) Home theater continuously upgraded, RC scale airplanes and helis (as large as @Paladin tube hoard, kinda) as well my ever growing music gear.
> So having most delivery carriers know me by the name and frequently at my door is somehow a bit over.
> 
> Hello, My name is HTSkywalker and I know am sick and need professional help 😀😀😀


That should be enough to keep the wallet quite thin


----------



## HTSkywalker

whirlwind said:


> That should be enough to keep the wallet quite thin


Exactly 😜
Whatever left could be used to get tubes 😍😍😍


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Well yeah, he has not settled in where he can sneak off and take naps and play on his cell phone yet. I give it till Monday and he will be back to his old self.


Where else but in these forums can @bcowen ridicule GE, rip on @Ripper2860, improve his golf cart d(r)iving skills, praise Frankentubes, AND secretly hope for a non-sideways Incubus?....


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 5, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Where else but in these forums can @bcowen ridicule GE, rip on @Ripper2860, improve his golf cart d(r)iving skills, praise Frankentubes, AND secretly hope for a non-sideways Incubus?....


Bill could have just done this but it does require thought, not much, just a little.😜


Please note this is the original mini rack system for Schiit medium sized gear, Bill's is a reasonable facsimile.  

Some serious listening will take place today and my tube of choice in Incubi is the Melz solid plate 1578 from 1958. It lacks perforations.


----------



## Ripper2860

I think Bill considered building a sideways rack, but couldn't afford the sideways table to set it on.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> Well yeah, he has not settled in where he can sneak off and take naps and play on his cell phone yet. I give it till Monday and he will be back to his old self.


If he joined the re-launched Western Electric having negotiated a tube-based compensation plan it will be awhile...


----------



## Ripper2860

I don't even want to know by which means he would smuggle tubes out of the factory.


----------



## Galapac

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't even want to know by which means he would smuggle tubes out of the factory.


You got to preheat them first. 😂


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't even want to know by which means he would smuggle tubes out of the factory.


White-out W, put in G...


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I think Bill considered building a sideways rack, but couldn't afford the sideways table to set it on.


Being in a Carolina blue cardboard mobile home, at least moving the abode sideways is easy....


----------



## Ripper2860

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't even want to know by which means *orifice* he would smuggle tubes out of the factory.



Fixed it for additional clarification.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't even want to know by which means he would smuggle tubes out of the factory.


No one should answer that tricky question


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Fixed it for additional clarification.


@bcowen is taking hits 😆😆


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't even want to know by which *orifice *he would smuggle tubes out of the factory.


Does this make WE the ‘orificial’ tube of this forum and thread? Accept no substitutes?....


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen is taking hits 😆😆


But they are all for the Tube Team in this forum!


----------



## HTSkywalker

We should give him a call ☎️


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> We should give him a call ☎️


1-800-WE-TUBES, smugglers are standing by...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> 1-800-WE-TUBES, smugglers are standing by...


1-800-GE-TUBES
Corrected 😜


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> 1-800-GE-TUBES
> Corrected 😜


Who would smuggle GE tubes...that is why it was a WE extension...


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> Who would smuggle GE tubes...that is why it was a WE extension...


I agree for small signal tubes, but GE 6550 and 6550A tubes are outstanding, as is the GE 5998A. I will give your castoffs a good home,


----------



## bcowen (Jun 5, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> BTW @bcowen new job is keeping him away for long from the forum 🤨🤨🤨


I was just watching from the sidelines for a bit to see how long it'd take to have to step in and send you guys to your rooms.  About a day.  Sheeez.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Bill could have just done this but it does require thought, not much, just a little.😜
> 
> Please note this is the original mini rack system for Schiit medium sized gear, Bill's is a reasonable facsimile.
> 
> Some serious listening will take place today and my tube of choice in Incubi is the Melz solid plate 1578 from 1958. It lacks perforations.


But then my Bifrost would have been sideways.  The visual horror would have caused endless nightmares.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Where else but in these forums can @bcowen ridicule GE, rip on @Ripper2860, improve his golf cart d(r)iving skills, praise Frankentubes, AND secretly hope for a non-sideways Incubus?....


I can ridicule GE's and @Ripper2860 anywhere (and usually do).  But you got me on the Frankentubes.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> @bcowen is taking hits 😆😆


Consider the source(s).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> But then my Bifrost would have been sideways.  The visual horror would have caused endless nightmares.


How often do you actually change a setting on a Bifrost??? and besides the power switch is on the back so now you would have much easier access to it. Some people, geesh.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> How often do you actually change a setting on a Bifrost??? and besides the power switch is on the back so now you would have much easier access to it. Some people, geesh.


Changing settings is irrelevant -- the front is the front.    And I never turn it off anyway, so the power switch is also irrelevant.  Just because my amp is uniquely configured correctly doesn't mean everyone else is wrong....they're just not right.


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 5, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Changing settings is irrelevant -- the front is the front.    And I never turn it off anyway, so the power switch is also irrelevant.  Just because my amp is uniquely configured correctly doesn't mean everyone else is wrong....they're just not right.


If “the front is the front”, why do you have a sideways Incubus? PS, if you had a sideways Bitfrost, would you be frostbit...🥶...?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I can ridicule GE's and @Ripper2860 anywhere (and usually do).  But you got me on the Frankentubes.


What about the ‘Frontcubus’?...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If “the front is the front”, why do you have a sideways Incubus? PS, if you had a sideways Bitfrost, would you be frostbit...🥶...?


I have a perfect Incubus.  Everyone else's is sideways.  Why?  I don't know, other than they're all 90 degrees out of phase in other regards as well.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I was just watching from the sidelines for a bit and see how long it'd take to have to step in and send you guys to your rooms.  About a day.  Sheeez.


I’m glad that we still have what it takes...


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> I agree for small signal tubes, but GE 6550 and 6550A tubes are outstanding, as is the GE 5998A. I will give your castoffs a good home,


The GE 5998A is ++. I have four. 😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Who would smuggle GE tubes...that is why it was a WE extension...


Normally in smuggling business you use misleading labels and GE is the best label in this case 😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> I agree for small signal tubes, but GE 6550 and 6550A tubes are outstanding, as is the GE 5998A. I will give your castoffs a good home,


Lately the GE tubes are having a good run with the latest findings but definitely not worth smuggling


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I was just watching from the sidelines for a bit to see how long it'd take to have to step in and send you guys to your rooms.  About a day.  Sheeez.


See !!! It would take us less than a day to leave our rooms and start gossiping 😄😄😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Consider the source(s).


We were missing you 😎😎


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> See !!! It would take us less than a day to leave our rooms and start gossiping 😄😄😄


Gossip?.....everything was based on bloodshot eye observation, confirmed by faulty memory....🧐🤪😜....


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Gossip?.....everything was based on bloodshot eye observation, confirmed by faulty memory....🧐🤪😜....


And orchestrated in some dark humid underground cellar 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Gossip?.....everything was based on bloodshot eye observation, confirmed by faulty memory....🧐🤪😜....


With 9 posts short of being crowned as a Headphoneous Supremus you should start preparing your speech and you better make it a good and lengthy one as the Forum Kahunas will observe it closely before bestowing on you the title and it need to get the personal approval of Mr. Jude Mansilla himself especially after your latest non-friendly posts towards @bcowen .
@Paladin79 did have to wait till his 5K post to re-apply to get the title due to that same behavior 😀😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> The GE 5998A is ++. I have four. 😊


Still trying to find any supplies outside eBay 😪😪


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Still trying to find any supplies outside eBay 😪😪


I bought mine via EBay...


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 6, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I bought mine via EBay...


EBay is not an option for me as they don’t like overseas credit cards which billing address outside the US 😜


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> With 9 posts short of being crowned as a Headphoneous Supremus you should start preparing your speech and you better make it a good and lengthy one as the Forum Kahunas will observe it closely before bestowing on you the title and it need to get the personal approval of Mr. Jude Mansilla himself especially after your latest non-friendly posts towards @bcowen .
> @Paladin79 did have to wait till his 5K post to re-apply to get the title due to that same behavior 😀😀


Non-friendly? 😊...so?...remember the old Hollywood dictum: “I don’t care how they spell my name as long as it’s in neon...”.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> EBay is not an option for me as they don’t like overseas credit cards 😜


even via PayPal?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Non-friendly? 😊...so?...remember the old Hollywood dictum: “I don’t care how they spell my name as long as it’s in neon...”.


6 more to go 😊😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> even via PayPal?


The PayPal is the complicated part in this part of the world, it's only offered through Amex and and it stopped lately locally


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> What about the ‘Frontcubus’?...


I try to humor Bill so his is very one of a kind. Eventually he will see the error in his ways but it takes longer for some people than others.  

I got to do lots of listening yesterday with friends as I showed off some of my amp builds, tube differences, headphone differences etc.  The 1961 melz 1578 certainly garnered some rave reviews as did the solid plate versions. One friend I do not see often is discovering scotch, so I had to break out some serious single malt for him.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I try to humor Bill so his is very one of a kind. Eventually he will see the error in his ways but it takes longer for some people than others.
> 
> I got to do lots of listening yesterday with friends as I showed off some of my amp builds, tube differences, headphone differences etc.  The 1961 melz 1578 certainly garnered some rave reviews as did the solid plate versions. One friend I do not see often is discovering scotch, so I had to break out some serious single malt for him.


Any photos of the amps lineup or the shed opening 😍


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I try to humor Bill so his is very one of a kind. Eventually *everyone* will see the error in *their* ways but it takes longer for some people than others.


Here...FTFY.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 6, 2021)

Any photos of the amps lineup or the shed opening 😍


Not really, I was too busy serving drinks and sneaking the husbands and boyfriends away for listening. It was mainly Incubus amps and my Cary and and another SET speaker amp I built. Things you have seen before. It also would not be right to post photos without permission IMHO. In the case of one guy, he is on YouTube promoting his band so I posted a link not long ago.

Oh and I do not qualify for 
Headphoneus Supremus​
When I joined I had to list any association with a company in the audio or electronics industry, just the way HeadFi works.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Here...FTFY.


FTFY (Reg. TM) ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> FTFY (Reg. TM) ?


FTFY is @jonathan c craft


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> FTFY is @jonathan c craft


Actually, @bcowen is the trailblazer here...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Actually, @bcowen is the trailblazer here...


@bcowen is a lot of things 😊😊


----------



## HTSkywalker

Probably @bcowen is enjoying a BBQ today 🍖


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Actually, @bcowen is the trailblazer here...


Speech now 😍😍😍😍


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Speech now 😍😍😍😍


Tubes speak louder than words...most GEs screech...


----------



## mayurs

Really liking these RCA 6sn7GT with Mullard 6080s. I thought all RCA 6sn7GT were silver labels.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Any photos of the amps lineup or the shed opening 😍
> 
> 
> Not really, I was too busy serving drinks and sneaking the husbands and boyfriends away for listening. It was mainly Incubus amps and my Cary and and another SET speaker amp I built. Things you have seen before. It also would not be right to post photos without permission IMHO. In the case of one guy, he is on YouTube promoting his band so I posted a link not long ago.
> ...


Then after 1500 posts you should have become Memberus of the Tradeus.  Seems only fair.  I'll shoot a note to the administration.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Actually, @bcowen is the trailblazer here...


LOL!  I'm having to do it so often that an efficiency improvement was in order.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and I do not qualify for
> Headphoneus Supremus​
> When I joined I had to list any association with a company in the audio or electronics industry, just the way HeadFi works.


This one is obvious:  Incubus Supremus 🥇😜


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Speech now 😍😍😍😍


OK, make me.

"Once upon a time I saw a bunch of amps that were built sideways.  I notified the manufacturer.  He told me I was weird.  The End."


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> When I joined I had to list any association with a company in the audio or electronics industry, just the way HeadFi works.


Far preferable to listing an association with any of this forum’s characters...😒...😎...🤡...👹


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> OK, make me.
> 
> "Once upon a time I saw a bunch of amps that were built sideways.  I notified the manufacturer.  He told me I was weird.  The End Side."


----------



## bcowen

ROFL!!


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Probably @bcowen is enjoying a BBQ today 🍖


NC of course, TX...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Tubes speak louder than words...most GEs screech...


That’s action 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

mayurs said:


> Really liking these RCA 6sn7GT with Mullard 6080s. I thought all RCA 6sn7GT were silver labels.


Your should try the Milspec RCAs


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Then after 1500 posts you should have become Memberus of the Tradeus.  Seems only fair.  I'll shoot a note to the administration.


Address to Jude.mansilla@headfi.org 😊😊😊
Will sign the petition 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I try to humor Bill so his is very one of a kind. Eventually he will see the error in his ways but it takes longer for some people than others.
> 
> I got to do lots of listening yesterday with friends as I showed off some of my amp builds, tube differences, headphone differences etc.  The 1961 melz 1578 certainly garnered some rave reviews as did the solid plate versions. One friend I do not see often is discovering scotch, so I had to break out some serious single malt for him.


Always the gentleman but when it comes to our dear friend @bcowen ……..👹👹


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> This one is obvious:  Incubus Supremus 🥇😜


In fact Supremus Incubus is @bcowen ’s amp 😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> OK, make me.
> 
> "Once upon a time I saw a bunch of amps that were built sideways.  I notified the manufacturer.  He told me I was weird.  The End."


I feel a chapter is missing from this story 😜😜


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I feel a chapter is missing from this story 😜😜


Several actually.  But every time I try to post them, the forum software replaces the text with *************.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Several actually.  But every time I try to post them, the forum software replaces the text with *************.


PG watchdog kicks in 😂😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact Supremus Incubus is @bcowen ’s amp 😁😁


You best be smiling when you say that, his is a fluke of nature.  

I have parts in my own Incubus Bill can only dream about.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> You best be smiling when you say that, his is a fluke of nature.
> 
> I have parts in my own Incubus Bill can only dream about.


Probably his is a DV in a wooden box if I know you well by now 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You best be smiling when you say that, his is a fluke of nature.
> 
> I have parts in my own Incubus Bill can only dream about.


A cap is a cap, a resistor is a resistor, a wire is a wire.   Sheeez.  You audiophiles.  Excuse me for a bit...I gotta get some cables cooking.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Probably his is a DV in a *cardboard* box if I know you well by now 🤣🤣🤣


Here...FTFY.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Here...FTFY.


See you are back to business of fixing posts


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact Supremus Incubus is @bcowen ’s amp 😁😁


@Paladin79 obviously has Incubus Extremeus with all them fancy parts.  I'm just glad that @Ripper2860 was the one to get Incubus Excrementus.


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> See you are back to business of fixing posts


It's a tough job, but someone has to do it.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> @Paladin79 obviously has Incubus Extremeus with all them fancy parts.  I'm just glad that @Ripper2860 was the one to get Incubus Excrementus.



Oh yeah!!  Well, at least my Incubus does not have a Finnegan turd hermetically sealed in the side-ways enclosure.  And btw -- your 2-channel rig looks and sounds like poop!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh yeah!!  Well, at least my Incubus does not have a Finnegan turd hermetically sealed in the side-ways enclosure.  And btw -- your 2-channel rig looks and sounds like poop!


That's a full scale offensive 😲😲😲


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> @Paladin79 obviously has Incubus Extremeus with all them fancy parts.  I'm just glad that @Ripper2860 was the one to get Incubus Excrementus.


A full treat for nose and ears when equipped with GE tubes 🤢🤢


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh yeah!!  Well, at least my Incubus does not have a Finnegan turd hermetically sealed in the side-ways enclosure.  And btw -- your 2-channel rig looks and sounds like poop!


Oh yeah?!?  My 2-channel rig has 300B-us SET-us and is therefore incapable of poopiness.  And my dog is still bigger than yours.  So there.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> A cap is a cap, a resistor is a resistor, a wire is a wire.   Sheeez.  You audiophiles.  Excuse me for a bit...I gotta get some cables cooking.


And bits are bits...all digital sounds alike...perfect sound forever...anything above MP3 is overkill...music is a fashion accessory...😒😔


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh yeah?!?  My 2-channel rig has 300B-us SET-us and is therefore incapable of poopiness.  And my dog is still bigger than yours.  So there.


Has anyone noticed the astounding decline in the quality of discourse 🤢 since @bcowen got back from his new job?...🚽...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> And bits are bits...all digital sounds alike...perfect sound forever...anything above MP3 is overkill...music is a fashion accessory...😒😔


Unless you play it through an amp with the volume control on the end instead of the front.  You _end_ up with 0.5's mixed in with the 1's and 0's.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> And bits are bits...all digital sounds alike...perfect sound forever...anything above MP3 is overkill...music is a fashion accessory...😒😔


Much more than enough


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> That's a full scale *lateral *offensive 😲😲😲


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Has anyone noticed the astounding decline in the quality of discourse 🤢 since @bcowen got back from his new job?...🚽...


No not me 😁😁


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> No not me 😁😁


Bill probably stands on his feet a lot more than he used to and that can wear on a man.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Bill probably stands on his feet a lot more than he used to and that can wear on a man.


....better than sitting on your hands....


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 6, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> ....better than sitting on your hands....


How do you think Bill keeps the tubes he's smuggling in place while researching prices on Bangy Bang's eBay store using voice commands on his phone?


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> How do you think Bill keeps the tubes he's smuggling in place while researching prices on Bangy Bang's eBay store using voice commands on his phone?


Voice commands a la _Bill _Barker (The Price is Right): “higher, higher!”...


----------



## attmci

HTSkywalker said:


> Much more than enough


Or this:


----------



## Ripper2860

One must do what is required in their pursuit of audio bliss and comfort. 😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

attmci said:


> Or this:


That's innovative 😍😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> One must do what is required in their pursuit of audio bliss and comfort. 😄


Thanks God this journey never seems to end🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

@L0rdGwyn Just received the Yaqin, will see tonight how it will sound, Raytheon 6SN7 pair still airborne but I can manage with a Sylvania pair for the moment and give it a spin.


----------



## Smallpie

Has anybody tried and liked the Tung Sol 6188?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Akiravelvet said:


> Has anybody tried and liked the Tung Sol 6188?


It is a ruggedized version of the 6SL7WGT With triple micas and I believe it's a rare find. Never tried it but heard good things about it and not sure if it's a direct replacement to 6SN7 tubes in terms of technical specs.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

HTSkywalker said:


> @L0rdGwyn Just received the Yaqin, will see tonight how it will sound, Raytheon 6SN7 pair still airborne but I can manage with a Sylvania pair for the moment and give it a spin.



Cool, let us know what you think!


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Am sure you will be doing the husbands a favor especially if you serve single malts, probably recruit some proteges 😃😃


I did serve some excellent single malt to a friend who is just now discovering scotch. What he tasted was one of 300 bottles imported to England, and one made its way to my hands. 63 proof, barrel strength. My friend was amazed but he also had to be able to drive lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I did serve some excellent single malt to a friend who is just now discovering scotch. What he tasted was one of 300 bottles imported to England, and one made its way to my hands. 63 proof, barrel strength. My friend was amazed but he also had to be able to drive lol.


Hopefully he didn’t ruin it with ice or water


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Hopefully he didn’t ruin it with ice or water


Nope, I was pouring so that did not happen. I just had a glass or two of champagne myself. 
I demonstrated various 6sn7 equivalents and I did not want to drink much and handle expensive tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Nope, I was pouring so that did not happen. I just had a glass or two of champagne myself.
> I demonstrated various 6sn7 equivalents and I did not want to drink much and handle expensive tubes.


With exclusive single malts being poured and expensive tubes singing, am sure it's a treat that should get some guests hooked leading to some heated discussions with their spouses on the way back home 😃😃


----------



## sam6550a

HTSkywalker said:


> It is a ruggedized version of the 6SL7WGT With triple micas and I believe it's a rare find. Never tried it but heard good things about it and not sure if it's a direct replacement to 6SN7 tubes in terms of technical specs.


6SL7 is a higher gain version of 6SN7, 70 vs 20. If used in a circuit designed for 6SN7, it will probably produce more distortion than the 6SN7.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I did serve some excellent single malt to a friend who is just now discovering scotch. What he tasted was one of 300 bottles imported to England, and one made its way to my hands. 63 proof, barrel strength. My friend was amazed but he also had to be able to drive lol.


I think you meant to say 63% alcohol, or 126 proof, which is in the normal range for barrel strength.


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> 6SL7 is a higher gain version of 6SN7, 70 vs 20. If used in a circuit designed for 6SN7, it will probably produce more distortion than the 6SN7.


Thought so


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> I think you meant to say 63% alcohol, or 126 proof, which is in the normal range for barrel strength.


This thread discuss everything but the DV 🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I think you meant to say 63% alcohol, or 126 proof, which is in the normal range for barrel strength.


yes sorry, and thanks for correcting that.   My mind was on other things, Mondays are like that for me.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> yes sorry, and thanks for correcting that.   My mind was on other things, Mondays are like that for me.


Welcome to the Golden Years---where you give all of your gold to the medical community.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Nope, I was pouring so that did not happen. I just had a glass or two of champagne myself.
> I demonstrated various 6sn7 equivalents and I did not want to _tube _much and handle expensive _drinks._


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> This thread discuss everything but the DV 🤣🤣🤣🤣


I guess that DV owners use double 6J5 versus 6SN7...and this IS a “reference” thread. Think LS3/5a —> BBC...


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> This thread discuss everything but the DV 🤣🤣🤣🤣


Maybe because it's the 6SN7 thread, not the DV thread.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> Maybe because it's the 6SN7 thread, not the DV thread.


Ah! Well that explains it…I thought this thread was about BBQ and bourbon discussions while bashing Bill and GE while occasionally discussing 6SN7 tubes…my bad. 🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 8, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Ah! Well that explains it…I thought this thread was about BBQ and bourbon discussions while bashing Bill and GE while occasionally discussing 6SN7 tubes…my bad. 🤣


True e got so drifted from the main subject till we got so mixed up and forget to even read the thread title 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 8, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Maybe because it's the 6SN7 thread, not the DV thread.


Well you got me there coz It's a crazy Monday (quoted from @Paladin79 ) and am also mixed up lol
In fact I checked all this last page posts and was not able to find any mention of the 6SN7 tube but in the title 😋😋 and both this thread and the DV thread is manned with the same crew anyway 😁😁


----------



## Paladin79

I mentioned 6sn7's in post 4645, I had already mentioned exactly which tubes they were in a previous post. This morn I hope to do a final listen to some ZMF Verite opens, and my 6sn7 of choice will be the 1961 melz 1578. @bl4scott just found a very nice 1962 for a low price on Ebay, so these tubes are still out there if you watch for them.

I just took a chance on a 62 1578 myself, $53 plus shipping....Ebay.


----------



## mayurs

NU Grey glass has very liquid sounding almost lush mid range. There was a bit of a hum that disappeared after little tap on the left tube. For me one of the better sounding 6sn7 tubes to my ears.


----------



## Smallpie

I’m interested in trying out a Melz 1578 tube. Does anybody have one they would be willing to sell?

how much are they worth max.?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 9, 2021)

Akiravelvet said:


> I’m interested in trying out a Melz 1578 tube. Does anybody have one they would be willing to sell?
> 
> how much are they worth max.?


Most are selling for $100 up with $120-$150 being more common. The one I just bought was described as used so I took a chance. You need to know what to look for on these tubes because the Russians are trying to sell other 6sn7 equivalents for similar money. You also need to know that very often they need the solder in the tube pins replaced or reflowed. I will try to look through mine later today and let you know if I have any duplicates I can spare. Buying one in the states makes sense since you avoid what can be a six week wait out of Russia.


----------



## Deceneu808

I'm also looking for a pair of Melz tubes but don't know how to spot the "good" ones. Trying ebay.de right now


----------



## Paladin79

This might help. Just be sure to look at the photos on Ebay closely. They need not say 1578 on them but the should match up to the tube on the left. My favorite years are the late fifties and early sixties. Check the date closely if you can, it is in the lower right portion of the Melz logo. There are plenty of 1978 versions out there right now and some from the 80's but they are not my favorite. Also be aware you may have to resolder the pins at some point. The solder that was originally used tends to break down.


----------



## Deceneu808

300 $ for a matched pair. Can't find any info on the date


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 10, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> 300 $ for a matched pair. Can't find any info on the date


https://www.ebay.com/itm/274405496479?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item3fe3d7969f:gQYAAOSw6cRgfTfe&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACgBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkY3FSd4Ad8xn3oRtkVexxrEs5ijXsRZ387cB8XDZm4CJqyw7F9B863Cm6gLj9Zad5L2%2FeC0XO9BlhJK7fHUi1PJ%2BucYNY%2BYdLrXEffi7fQ9JEhDl2rNY8CF%2F07a66ICTW29qtuNjYyJpmIryWihsdXsKWAI8F9CSKRCgRop3h754eqAPxXH0t8vLp2TbcP%2Fq1WfKaSvJSbGJ5%2BTbfXZPHESglzfq6XoSrvrNWGTVY59txkhgWp6FulJP2q5n4DXUWH9KLYSGCFgJBuydbNgAfojCNJ%2FFBfa6NFDshQcBQXWcd%2Bg1w4lhVktZ9rfaXQLjoXRveXYR%2F0rB3dGbyREA6ZOoauBTFS%2FoxQ9pN9IQkg%2Bc0ghr5QkLujwE9fZ3w7OmQYw34U5uW88qWGkio1PBL9IF%2FHeYLXrQXb00wtwABF%2FzBI1medLgty65qcBcfkownkh5SK%2F4URVyTfmBK1sUGlJ%2F4iHKFJMn6vvVpRdCaXkZLMS5xTz0tCLBWSR65TfoocDuAcAi7FHILGcgXw0pGYDNQkOXplbK0TuXJyDrFOdDXkRs8AOmaCHmvsUxDOMeuTGmUGTqhenJcJgzmieZEHzrgv7L7KoplYgVbU2dVY5kH93mZkCDg3Rl9l%2BFVuirfjgZjAiGeGt0YYCMYW%2BZld29i6SOAkfTL6bxAAnaF2NpQXU3nYmy8jpdEuXyHKdesSO%2BdGdVVluw%2BUc86kQAseJVtT7UOP7qKOcVkFj2zMi4KYq%2FbuNzgehA1D1CfZMsvf8RjL2vtAJL1I%2FwfLD6%2B%2FaVTkrI3GIt%2B2CrsqjvUm2I%3D|cksum:27440549647913279a89d58c4d508c8aaef7231547e6|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524

If these, seller is saying 1963, I have owned a bunch of those and they are very good. You can always ask the seller for a better photo of the Melz logo since that will have the date as well.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 10, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> 300 $ for a matched pair. Can't find any info on the date



Those are 1975.  There's a 75 on the lower right of the logo ring.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Those are 1975.  THere's a 75 on the lower left of the logo ring.


Lower right of logo ring perhaps?


----------



## Ripper2860

Caught it and corrected it just before you posted.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 10, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Caught it and corrected it just before you posted.


Which photo shows you that?  And as I said earlier, I would request a better photo of the logo from the seller.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 10, 2021)

The link takes me to a German eBay listing.  Here's a snip of the pic...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 10, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> The link takes me to a German eBay listing.  Here's a snip of the pic...


Odd I have tried that link four or five times and there is no tape on the bottom of the American listing I get lol.

Early on I asked if this was the listing the gentleman was referring to, I just looked on Ebay since I did not see a link he posted. Anyway these are referenced as 1963's but I cannot make out a date in the photos. Were I to buy a matched pair for $300 it would be these.


----------



## tafens

Galapac said:


> Ah! Well that explains it…I thought this thread was about BBQ and bourbon discussions while bashing Bill and GE while occasionally discussing 6SN7 tubes…my bad. 🤣


No, that’s the Schiit Happened thread. At least the BBQ part. Definitely the BBQ part


----------



## jonathan c

tafens said:


> No, that’s the Schiit Happened thread. At least the BBQ part. Definitely the BBQ part


New thread idea?....grilling/roasting BBQ placed over rows n’ rows of glowing 6SN7s...tu-be-que...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> New thread idea?....grilling/roasting BBQ placed over rows n’ rows of glowing 6SN7s...tu-be-que...


I know the perfect tube store which also sells BBQ sauce and they are good at it (the sauce) 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> I know the perfect tube store which also sells BBQ sauce and they are good at it (the sauce) 🤣🤣🤣


Does it also serve, for British ex-patriates, bangybangers & mash?...


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Does it also serve, for British ex-patriates, bangybangers & mash?...


Someone needs to take one for the team and take the leap 😂😂


----------



## inmytaxi

I don't really get it, if a 6sn7 contains 2 6j5, can I still substitute in a 6j5?


----------



## Paladin79

inmytaxi said:


> I don't really get it, if a 6sn7 contains 2 6j5, can I still substitute in a 6j5?


A 6sn7 is a dual triode tube, 6j5’s are single triode thus you need two of them to equal a 6sn7. One will not replace it.


----------



## FLTWS

2 in a special adapter that holds both.


----------



## FLTWS




----------



## Galapac

FLTWS said:


>


Nice!


----------



## HTSkywalker

inmytaxi said:


> I don't really get it, if a 6sn7 contains 2 6j5, can I still substitute in a 6j5?


In short the 6SN7 is [A] a dual triode tube while the 6J5 is a single triode tube. Dual triodes are needed for stereo configuration or sometimes dual 6SN7 are needed for Cathode followers setup in stereo configuration.
so If you have a dual 6SN7 setup you will need a total of 2 adapters and 4 6J5 tubes to work as dual 6SN7 which is (Go to A)


----------



## Slade01

Paladin79 said:


> This might help. Just be sure to look at the photos on Ebay closely. They need not say 1578 on them but the should match up to the tube on the left. My favorite years are the late fifties and early sixties. Check the date closely if you can, it is in the lower right portion of the Melz logo. There are plenty of 1978 versions out there right now and some from the 80's but they are not my favorite. Also be aware you may have to resolder the pins at some point. The solder that was originally used tends to break down.


Hey Tom, is the wannabe in the middle worth a look at all?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 12, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> Hey Tom, is the wannabe in the middle worth a look at all?


They are ok, about like Fotons. I was just offered 8 of them for $57 each but I am more apt to spend $20-$25 each. Look for variables like perforated plates or metal top supports and you could be on to something.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> They are ok, about like Fotons. I was just offered 8 of them for $57 each but I am more apt to spend $20-$25 each. Look for variables like perforated plates or metal top supports and you could be on to something.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


>


I believe I sent a Foton with my latest amp build, she wants to keep the Melz lol. My loaner got to one person and stopped.😛


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe I sent a Foton with my latest amp build, she wants to keep the Melz lol. My loaner got to one person and stopped.😛


Loaner?  LOL!  You should just send them out and give the recipient a week to listen before they send the money.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Loaner?  LOL!  You should just send them out and give the recipient a week to listen before they send the money.


I have done that before too. This was a pretty loaner and I believe I soldered most parts in place. Unlike yours.😉


----------



## inmytaxi

HTSkywalker said:


> In short the 6SN7 is [A] a dual triode tube while the 6J5 is a single triode tube. Dual triodes are needed for stereo configuration or sometimes dual 6SN7 are needed for Cathode followers setup in stereo configuration.
> so If you have a dual 6SN7 setup you will need a total of 2 adapters and 4 6J5 tubes to work as dual 6SN7 which is (Go to A)


I was just trying to figure out why I need two triodes for a dual mono setup and I realized that Freya is differential, so that's why it uses the 6sn7 and can't use the 6j5 without the funny thing I use with my Lyr LOL.  Do people actually use these things with a Freya+?  Kinda starting a little wind farm in your home. I don't think I'd get away with that.


----------



## Paladin79

inmytaxi said:


> I was just trying to figure out why I need two triodes for a dual mono setup and I realized that Freya is differential, so that's why it uses the 6sn7 and can't use the 6j5 without the funny thing I use with my Lyr LOL.  Do people actually use these things with a Freya+?  Kinda starting a little wind farm in your home. I don't think I'd get away with that.


I do not use them with a Freya plus but then I really like the sound of specific 6sn7’s in the Freya. I no longer use a Lyr 3 or Vali 2 but 6j5 pairs were fun in those. I do not allow enough space in some of my Incubus amps for pairs of tubes.


----------



## inmytaxi

Paladin79 said:


> I do not use them with a Freya plus but then I really like the sound of specific 6sn7’s in the Freya. I no longer use a Lyr 3 or Vali 2 but 6j5 pairs were fun in those. I do not allow enough space in some of my Incubus amps for pairs of tubes.


I love the Freya+ stock, just have these things laying around in a box so I thought it'd be interesting to see what I could do with Lyr3 tubes, I think I'll check 'em out when I try bridged mode in the Freya/Vidar with some mono recordings.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I do not use them with a Freya plus but then I really like the sound of specific 6sn7’s in the Freya. I no longer use a Lyr 3 or Vali 2 but 6j5 pairs were fun in those. I do not allow enough space in some of my Incubus amps for pairs of tubes.



If people would quit ordering their Incubus sideways, they'd have plenty of room.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have done that before too. This was a pretty loaner and I believe I soldered most parts in place. Unlike yours.😉


Whew.  Glad you soldered *all* mine in place instead of just most of them.    

Did you use electrical tape or Elmer's Glue on @Ripper2860 's?


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Whew.  Glad you soldered *all* mine in place instead of just most of them.
> 
> Did you use electrical tape or Elmer's Glue on @Ripper2860 's?


Of course not! He used JB Weld!!


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Of course not! He used JB Weld!!


LOL!  Hope not...that will probably melt off in Texas during the summer.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 12, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Whew.  Glad you soldered *all* mine in place instead of just most of them.
> 
> Did you use electrical tape or Elmer's Glue on @Ripper2860 's?


I believe Ripper got Elmer's glue mixed with cat dander, you got twisted wires and duct tape. Just try not to shake yours very much and some of the parts might stay in place.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe Ripper got Elmer's glue mixed with cat dander, you got twisted wires and duct tape. Just try not to shake yours very much and some of the parts might stay in place.


So you're saying I _shouldn't_ install it in my car?  Crap.  Guess I have to buy another amp now.  Maybe something like these:


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So you're saying I _shouldn't_ install it in my car?  Crap.  Guess I have to buy another amp now.  Maybe something like these:


It could work in your car but first you would have to balance the tires, get the front end aligned, and change the shocks and or struts. I doubt you have done anything to your AMC Gremlin since you bought it new.    If you buy them I am NOT doing any woodwork to counteract their buttuglyness.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It could work in your car but first you would have to balance the tires, get the front end aligned, and change the shocks and or struts. I doubt you have done anything to your AMC Gremlin *Pacer* since you bought it new.   If you buy them I am NOT doing any woodwork to counteract their buttuglyness.


FTFY.  Again.  Sigh.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Whew.  Glad you soldered *all* mine in place instead of just most of them.
> 
> Did you use electrical tape or Elmer's Glue on @Ripper2860 's?


Tin butt splice wire crimps. 

 (I've lobbed this one up there for you.  Let's see what you can do with it. 😒 )


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> Tin butt splice wire crimps.
> 
> (I've lobbed this one up there for you.  Let's see what you can do with it. 😒 )


"Tin butt splice wire crimps"
I've known people who are into that sort of thing - I'm not judging of course…
BTW, probably for the best _not_ to google that phrase


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Tin butt splice wire crimps.
> 
> (I've lobbed this one up there for you.  Let's see what you can do with it. 😒 )


I'm guessing your familiarity with those stems from eating TX BBQ?


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 13, 2021)

bcowen said:


> So you're saying I _shouldn't_ install it in my car?  Crap.  Guess I have to buy another amp now.  Maybe something like these:


That's another budget option 😁
Probably burglars will steal the radio and leave the car 🤣🤣


----------



## Slade01

HTSkywalker said:


> That's another budget option 😁
> Probably burglars will steal the radio and leave the car 🤣🤣


They will strip the radio for its tubes. Lol.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Received today a matched Raytheon 6SN7GT black ladder plates with extra support rods. Will see how they will compare with the T plates


----------



## Deceneu808

Why do these sound so good ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Why do these sound so good ?


What brand are those ???


----------



## Ripper2860

Deceneu808 said:


> Why do these sound so good ?


You think they sound good now?  Wait til you put them in an amp!!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Aren’t those the Chinese stock tubes ?? 😀😀


----------



## Deceneu808

HTSkywalker said:


> What brand are those ???


Don't know. I searched for the same tube that comes stock in Tor Audio amps. OTK 6H8C. 60 bucks for a matched pair.



Ripper2860 said:


> You think they sound good now?  Wait til you put them in an amp!!


I tried to stick em in my car's headlights but the socket is weird... BUT fortunately they were drop and play in my amp


----------



## AudioGal

Paladin79 said:


> The Incubus and tubes should be on the way to California soon and another listener. If it arrives back in this area I will send it on to @jonathan c for a listen. He seems like a fine upstanding guy as opposed to the reprobate who resides in North Carolina.
> 
> This Incubus and those tubes. I will leave any tube and amp descriptions up to @AudioGal.


Enjoyed the amplifier so much I decided to buy it. 
Ultimately my favorite combination of tubes in it so far have been the Melz 1578 with the GE (horrors!) 5998A. 
Now I need to dig through storage, locate the other big bin of tubes and see what I have in the 6SN7 family. 
So many tubes, so little time.

(And, "Hi!", she says. "Better late than never.")


----------



## jonathan c

AudioGal said:


> Enjoyed the amplifier so much I decided to buy it.
> Ultimately my favorite combination of tubes in it so far have been the Melz 1578 with the GE (horrors!) 5998A.
> Now I need to dig through storage, locate the other big bin of tubes and see what I have in the 6SN7 family.
> So many tubes, so little time.
> ...


Don’t feel bad about the GE 5998A. They are very good. Prompted by the expert review by @Ripper2860, I have four of them.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 22, 2021)

AudioGal said:


> Enjoyed the amplifier so much I decided to buy it.



And yet another falls prey to the sultry sounds of Incubus.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> And yet another falls prey to the sultry sounds of Incubus.


Indeed. Another lesson (for bcowen) that the non-sideways Incubus sells itself!…


----------



## bcowen

AudioGal said:


> Enjoyed the amplifier so much I decided to buy it.
> Ultimately my favorite combination of tubes in it so far have been the Melz 1578 with the GE (horrors!) 5998A.
> Now I need to dig through storage, locate the other big bin of tubes and see what I have in the 6SN7 family.
> So many tubes, so little time.
> ...


Welcome to the club!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Indeed. Another lesson (for bcowen) that the non-sideways Incubus sells itself!…


Well, at least I didn't have to pay extra for my right (angled) configuration.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Well, at least I didn't have to pay extra for my right (angled) configuration.


Except, if your amp is right oriented, the only thing that'll sound good is Limbaugh rebroadcasts


----------



## Galapac

Well that takes another Incubus out of rotation. Congrats @AudioGal!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 22, 2021)

AudioGal said:


> Enjoyed the amplifier so much I decided to buy it.
> Ultimately my favorite combination of tubes in it so far have been the Melz 1578 with the GE (horrors!) 5998A.
> Now I need to dig through storage, locate the other big bin of tubes and see what I have in the 6SN7 family.
> So many tubes, so little time.
> ...


Those are fine tubes but when you get into the early Melz, and the unique Melz combined with a Tung Sol 5998 magic happens.   Mind you I do listen with Focal Utopias and they open up the high frequencies so you just feel them lift higher and higher.  Mind you I have just been to an Irish pub with my son and his family and after Guiness, and Harp and black and tans, we finished the evening  with the oldest Bushmills they could find so I am not responsible for my views right now. Most likely if @bcowen had something to say it would probably make sense.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, at least I didn't have to pay extra for my right (angled) configuration.


I came to a point where it was much easier to give him an odd amp rather than drive to NC and drop a cinder block on his foot so he would leave me alone.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Well, at least I didn't have to pay extra for my right (angled) configuration.


You are lucky that it doesn’t take right-angled tubes…🍀🍀🍀…


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Except, if your amp is right oriented, the only thing that'll sound good is Limbaugh rebroadcasts


Poor bcowen 😢, I guess that Marilyn Manson is thus ruled out…


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Those are fine tubes but when you get into the early Melz, and the unique Melz combined with a Tung Sol 5998 magic happens.   Mind you I do listen with Focal Utopias and they open up the high frequencies so you just feel them lift higher and higher.  Mind you I have just been to an Irish pub with my son and his family and after Guiness, and Harp and black and tans, we finished the evening  with the oldest Bushmills they could find so I am not responsible for my views right now. Most likely if @bcowen had something to say it would probably make sense.


…saved by the “if”…!…😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I came to a point where it was much easier to give him an odd amp rather than drive to NC and drop a cinder block on his foot so he would leave me alone.


You could have sent via *D*rop *H*eavy *L*oad…


----------



## jonathan c

A bcowencubus amp idea: since right angled / sideways cabinetry is _de rigeur , _why not have the output signal always 90 degrees out of phase to compensate? 👹😸…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> A bcowencubus amp idea: since right angled / sideways cabinetry is _de rigeur , _why not have the output signal always 90 degrees out of phase to compensate? 👹😸…


The man came from a good family, but somewhere along the line....


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> The man came from a good family, but somewhere along the line....


…his wires were crossed 😵‍💫⚡️⚡️…


----------



## bcowen (Jun 23, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> The man came from a good family, but somewhere along the line....


...he became great.

I guess FTFY is now _Finished_ This For You.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Most likely if @bcowen had something to say it would probably make sense.



I make more sense to _myself_ after heavily imbibing, if that helps.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> ...he became a great pain in my ass.


FTFY


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> FTFY


Don't you have something productive to do?  Wait...it's you.  Nevermind.


----------



## Ripper2860

What?  Antagonizing you is not considered productive??


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> What?  Antagonizing you is not considered productive??


I would call it routine rather than productive.


----------



## Ripper2860

We'll just have to agree to disagree with me being correct and you not so much.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 23, 2021)

In an effort to get back to tubes. Recently I received a 62 Melz 1578 and a friend sent one he bought so I am switching back and forth between the two and the sound nearly as good as it gets, if you happen to like balance across the entire audio spectrum. Every part is accurate but nothing is overpowering. Highs that can make Utopias proud.

Oh yeah I paid $65 or so plus shipping, an excellent price considering what these usually go for.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Don't know. I searched for the same tube that comes stock in Tor Audio amps. OTK 6H8C. 60 bucks for a matched pair.
> 
> 
> I tried to stick em in my car's headlights but the socket is weird... BUT fortunately they were drop and play in my amp


I have a feeling that they are the same tubes which came as stock with the Yaqin tube buffer, will confirm.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Well, at least I didn't have to pay extra for my right (angled) configuration.


Well there exists Incubus for the masses and only 1 sideway for you. At some point in time, am sure its value will skyrocket 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Those are fine tubes but when you get into the early Melz, and the unique Melz combined with a Tung Sol 5998 magic happens.   Mind you I do listen with Focal Utopias and they open up the high frequencies so you just feel them lift higher and higher.  Mind you I have just been to an Irish pub with my son and his family and after Guiness, and Harp and black and tans, we finished the evening  with the oldest Bushmills they could find so I am not responsible for my views right now. Most likely if @bcowen had something to say it would probably make sense.


"it would probably make sense. ".....That much drunk ??? lol 😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I would call it routine rather than productive.


Business as usual 🙂


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Well there exists Incubus for the masses and only 1 sideway for you. At some point in time, am sure its value will skyrocket 😁😁😁


…once freed from playback of @bcowen’s Marilyn Manson collection…


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …once freed from playback of @bcowen’s Marilyn Manson collection…


In fact it should be named Manson Incubus - special edition 😁


----------



## Mr Trev

HTSkywalker said:


> In fact it should be named Manson Incubus - special edition 😁


Mancubus?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Mancubus?


This weird looking amp already have a DNA father and another one who raised him so will leave it to them to name it 🙄🙄


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Mancubus?


And there is a variant which is powered by sharon tatetrode tubes….oh, wrong Manson…🤨😜…


----------



## Ripper2860

Since we are offering up names for Bill's amp, put my entry in for 'ButtUglyCubus'.


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> Since we are offering up names for Bill's amp, put my entry in for 'ButtUglyCubus'.


Cardboardcubus?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> And there is a variant which is powered by sharon tatetrode tubes….oh, wrong Manson…🤨😜…


Lol


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Since we are offering up names for Bill's amp, put my entry in for 'ButtUglyCubus'.


I’ll go with ‘cowencubutt’..


----------



## bcowen

You guys are all just jealous, smacking yourself on the forehead muttering "Why didn't *I* think of that?"  Incubus Magnifico.


----------



## Ripper2860

I think excessive smacks to the head may have contributed to your desire for ButtUglyCubus.  😜


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I think excessive smacks to the head may have contributed to your desire for ButtUglyCubus.  😜


So you're calling @Paladin79 's beautiful creation butt ugly?  That's harsh, man.


----------



## Ripper2860

Tom's execution of your moronic design was flawless!  😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Since it is the "One Incubus to rule them all" it should be named  "Incubus Dominus" 
As for @bcowen He should be named "The Lord of Tubus" 😎😎😎


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Since it is the "One Incubus to rule them all" it should be named  "Incubus Dominus"
> As for @bcowen He should be named "The Lord of Tubus" 😎😎😎


I thought he was already Lord of the BBQ flies.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Tom's execution of your moronic design was flawless!  😄


Again, a Ralph Waldo Emerson reminder: “idea and execution are seldom found in the same head”…


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I think _any listening_ to _Marilyn Manson _may have contributed to your desire for ButtUglyCubus. 😜


…(FTFY, Reg. TM…)


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Since it is the "One Incubus to rule them all" it should be named  *Domincubus.*


@bcowen _is_ right about _one_ thing: this fixing / proofing is sorely needed…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> @bcowen _is_ right about _one_ thing: this fixing / proofing is sorely needed…


*One* thing?  Please.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I thought he was already Lord of the BBQ flies.


Good grief.  I am Lord of the Ring (getters).  You guys are hopeless.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Good grief.  I am Lord of the Rinkidinks. You guys are hopeless.


Now it reads better.😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now it reads better.😜


I'm glad everyone is starting to help fix posts.  The burden was becoming too great for one person.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes.  All the FTFYs wore the batteries out on my wireless KB.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Good grief. I am Lord of the Ring_ers_). You guys are hopeless.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'm glad everyone is starting to help fix posts.  The burden was becoming too great for one person.


Well, as Grandmum would say, “if you want something done right, do it yourself”…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> *One* thing?  Please.


Better than _no_thing…🤣


----------



## attmci

jonathan c said:


> Better than _no_thing…🤣


Have a look at these wonderful tubes.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ecc33-ecc35-tube-addicts.558352/


----------



## Bonddam

Russki tube


----------



## HTSkywalker

Bonddam said:


> Russki tube


What's with the cat on your amp 😲😲 same with @Paladin79.
Thought snake oil help with sound, never knew about cat's pi$$ 😂😂


----------



## Makiah S

happy to see this thread still kickn  it might as well be renamed to the 6sn7 bible now haha


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mshenay said:


> happy to see this thread still kickn  it might as well be renamed to the 6sn7 bible now haha


Summer break kicking and tubes don't like warm weather 😎😎


----------



## Deceneu808

Double trouble


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> So you're saying I _shouldn't_ install it in my car?  Crap.  Guess I have to buy another amp now.  Maybe something like these:


What is Sam hell am I looking at? I just got up... on Canada Day, no less... and I see THIS. Without my coffee . I_n other non-news (here up here North of the 49th parallel): Southern British Columbia is on fire. I was able to stink up my home office with an experimental circuit board (no magic blue smoke... just overheating electronics)_.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Deceneu808 said:


> Don't know. I searched for the same tube that comes stock in Tor Audio amps. OTK 6H8C. 60 bucks for a matched pair.
> 
> 
> I tried to stick em in my car's headlights but the socket is weird... BUT fortunately they were drop and play in my amp


Okay, _that second sentence made me smirk and chuckle_. Nice quip, @Deceneu808


----------



## ScubaMan2017

jonathan c said:


> And there is a variant which is powered by sharon tatetrode tubes….oh, wrong Manson…🤨😜…


Thankfully, I was still a toddler when this stuff was all going down.


----------



## Mr Trev

What'cha think… good enough for cleaning tube pins?


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> What'cha think… good enough for cleaning tube pins?



LOL!  Now that's just plain _cool!_ I gotta get me one.  If it doesn't work on tube pins, I'll use it in my son's bedroom.  Maybe it has a vaporize mode.


----------



## Slade01

Mr Trev said:


> What'cha think… good enough for cleaning tube pins?



That is some quality witchcraft right there!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> What'cha think… good enough for cleaning tube pins?
> 🤩🤩



That's a really cool gadget and Czech made too , gotta ask my wife for such a present since it's locally made


----------



## AudioGal

Mr Trev said:


> What'cha think… good enough for cleaning tube pins?



We have something like that at work. It's set up to clean tooling used in our physical vapor deposition process. Kinda terrifying what you can do with a 100 watt laser these days.


----------



## Mr Trev

AudioGal said:


> We have something like that at work. It's set up to clean tooling used in our physical vapor deposition process. Kinda terrifying what you can do with a 100 watt laser these days.


Nice. Ever try to clean tube pins with it?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2021)

I would advise against it.  One less Tung-Sol 6SN7GT BGRP in this world, I'm afraid.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I would advise against it.  One less Tung-Sol 6SN7GT BGRP in this world, I'm afraid.


You should have tested it on one of your (many) GE's.  That would have been a mercy killing at worst.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2021)

Many?  I have 3 legit made by GE tubes - 1x 6SN7 (a gift), 1x 5998A, 1x 6AS7GA (part of a two tube lot purchase that included a Chatham 6080).  I certainly would not call that 'many'.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2021)

I would call that 'Too many'!.  🤣

**Correction: that would be two too many.  The 5998A is the rare GE exception.


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> I would call that 'Too many'!.  🤣
> 
> **Correction: that would be two too many.  The 5998A is the rare GE exception.


On the subject of exceptions, I am one of those strange people who didn't love the Tung Sol 5998, subsequently sold it. Does the GE5998A have similar sonic character or does it bring something different to the table?

Thanks as always, @Ripper2860 !


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2021)

I would call it different.  Quite a  bit more energetic than the TS 5998 with the 5998A having a bit more bass and slam while still having nice mids and top end.  A tad bit less soundstage than the TS 5998.  The GE 5998A is almost 1/4 of the TS 5998 so definitely worth a try.

(Of course the usual caveats - my gear, my ears, my music.  😉  )


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Nice. Ever try to clean tube pins with it?


Exactly why GE tubes exists for (excluding the 5998 🙂)


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> I would call that 'Too many'!.  🤣
> 
> **Correction: that would be two too many.  The 5998A is the rare GE exception.


even 1 GE tube is a lot (again excluding the praised 5998 - probably the engineer who made this tube then was kicked out)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 12, 2021)

Worse than that, I'm afraid.  He's been reassigned to the power strip division.


----------



## AudioGal

Well I'll volunteer to "dispose of" any and all GE tubes. Send them my way. Especially the 6SN7s.

Yeah, yeah, I know. It's a dangerous job. But someone has to do it.

Meanwhile, I'll just have to put up listening to my Incubus with a late 50's vintage Tung-Sol 6SN7 and an old Chatham Electronics JAN-CAHG-6AS7G. Driving Audeze LCD-3s.

Real amplifiers glow in the dark.


----------



## HTSkywalker

AudioGal said:


> Well I'll volunteer to "dispose of" any and all GE tubes. Send them my way. Especially the 6SN7s.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I know. It's a dangerous job. But someone has to do it.
> 
> ...


Never knew the Incubus was good with planars 😍
Good job their @Paladin79


----------



## Ripper2860

Incubus has been driving my Hifiman Arya planar HPs since day 1.  Sounds FABULOUS!!!!


----------



## tubebuyer2020

AudioGal said:


> Real amplifiers glow in the dark.



A matter of voltage/current applied.


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> A matter of voltage/current applied.


AudioGal is certainly aware of why tubes glow.😜

As am I.


----------



## Galapac (Jul 13, 2021)

And some glow better than others.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> AudioGal is certainly aware of why tubes glow.😜
> 
> As am I.



No, I meant like any amp can glow if you apply enough power  .


----------



## bcowen

AudioGal said:


> Well I'll volunteer to "dispose of" any and all GE tubes. Send them my way. Especially the 6SN7s.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I know. It's a dangerous job. But someone has to do it.
> 
> ...


Be sure to read the fine print on the Incubus warranty card you didn't get.  It's written in Indiana-ese, but as best I can tell it says that use of GE tubes will instantly void all warranty coverage.  Perhaps I translated inaccurately, but better safe than sorry.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Be sure to read the fine print on the Incubus warranty card you didn't get.  It's written in Indiana-ese, but as best I can tell it says that use of GE tubes will instantly void all warranty coverage.  Perhaps I translated inaccurately, but better safe than sorry.


But she got a wonderful GE power tube that you are too, um cowardly, chicken,  um cautious to try out, the wondrous GE 5998A!!!! 
The new card says if anyone named Cowen gives you any kind of advice actively ignore him and the amp could last forever.    Bill's will last forever but it may be in a second life as a door stop or boat anchor.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Worse than that, I'm afraid.  He's been reassigned to the power strip division.


section 230 volt…


----------



## jonathan c

tubebuyer2020 said:


> No, I meant like any amp can glow if you apply enough power  .


If the amp rather than the tube is glowing, is it time to flee?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Be sure to read the fine print on the Incubus warranty card you didn't get.  It's written in Indiana-ese, but as best I can tell it says that use of GE tubes will instantly void all warranty coverage.  Perhaps I translated inaccurately, but better safe than sorry.


This is what happens when one confuses Indianaese with Indianalatin. It is _playback of Marilyn Manson _that voids the warranty.


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> If the amp rather than the tube is glowing, is it time to flee?


Esp. if its one of those amps built from parts looted from the former Chernobyl power plant


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Esp. if its one of those amps built from parts looted from the former Chernobyl power plant


The old quip about the 5-day weather forecast for Chernobyl:……12 hours…..


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Be sure to read the fine print on the Incubus warranty card you didn't get.  It's written in Indiana-ese, but as best I can tell it says that use of GE tubes will instantly void all warranty coverage.  Perhaps I translated inaccurately, but better safe than sorry.


Well no amp is GE proof as the chemistry inside it is unstable 😛🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> But she got a wonderful GE power tube that you are too, um cowardly, chicken,  um cautious to try out, the wondrous GE 5998A!!!!
> The new card says if anyone named Cowen gives you any kind of advice actively ignore him and the amp could last forever.    Bill's will last forever but it may be in a second life as a door stop or boat anchor.


THE Incubus Dominus is taking hits 😫😫


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Esp. if its one of those amps built from parts looted from the former Chernobyl power plant


Those tubes are easy to identify as they glow without being plugged to anything 😍😍


----------



## jonathan c (Jul 14, 2021)

How does one identify a user of Chernobyl-based tubes?


----------



## jonathan c

...blue hair and blond eyes...


----------



## jonathan c (Jul 14, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Bill's will last forever but it may be in a second life as a door stop or boat anchor.


It will last forever…in the next life…as a sarcophagal offering by King Tubetankhcowun…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It will last forever…in the next life…as a sarcophagal offering by King Tubetankhcowun…


ROFL!! (with apologies to the OG King Tut).


----------



## jonathan c

jonathan c said:


>


One should assume that the next holy grail is a Brimar CV455 KB/FB (FootOfTheNilescray 1956 B.C.) with a pyramid getter…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> One should assume that the next holy grail is a Brimar CV455 KB/FB (FootOfTheNilescray 1956 B.C.) with a pyramid getter…


Well crap, with this much exposure I doubt I will slip cast King Tut headphone stands now.😜 Luckily I have other ideas in mind. I think it would be so cool to do one of a kind ceramic headphone stands for friends.


----------



## jonathan c (Jul 15, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Well crap, with this much exposure I doubt I will slip cast King Tut headphone stands now.😜 Luckily I have other ideas in mind. I think it would be so cool to do one of a kind ceramic headphone stands for friends.


You could do the economical Henry VIII spouse series: divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived…
[edited]


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> You could do the economical Henry VIII spouse series: beheaded, beheaded, died, beheaded, beheaded, survived…


You may want to recheck your history if you are listing the wives in order. It goes divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived.  His first wife, Catherine of Aragon caused Henry to break away from Catholicism in order to get divorced. 😜 I minored in history.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You may want to recheck your history if you are listing the wives in order. It goes divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived.  His first wife, Catherine of Aragon caused Henry to break away from Catholicism in order to get divorced. 😜 I minored in history.


Thank you for the heads up correction!


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Thank you for the heads up correction!


Your word usage and wit amaze me as always.
 I may be gone for a couple days as I learn new processes and skills. I am drinking deeply of information I will need for a new project.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Your word usage and wit amaze me as always.
> I may be gone for a couple days as I learn new processes and skills. I am drinking deeply of information I will need for a new project.


That sounds exciting….👍


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> You may want to recheck your history if you are listing the wives in order. It goes divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived.  His first wife, Catherine of Aragon caused Henry to break away from Catholicism in order to get divorced. 😜 I minored in history.


----------



## LoryWiv

jonathan c said:


> Thank you for the heads up correction!


Yes, that correction was well-_*executed*_*.*


----------



## JTbbb

I have been much amused by recent posts in this thread, the repertoire has brought a smile to my face everyday! Along the way there has been mentioned some tube types that got me thinking about a couple of pairs I have in my modest collection. So, after doing some research again, and reaffirming that the latter half of the 20th century was indeed full of tube skulduggery, I’m confused 😕. Any help much appreciated.

So the first pair, Mullard or Brimar? 60’s? Or can they be tied down to an actual year?

Second pair, ’45? I think I got that date from here. But are they military spec?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2021)

1st set is Brimar.  The tell-tale welded curved plates and top mica construction give it away.  (Plus I have a couple of pairs of those CV1988 GTYs.) 

I'll defer as to date codes for the Raytheon.


----------



## Laines

I'm looking for some dark sounding 6sn7 with a good bass extention. Any recommendations?


----------



## Varejao17

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, that correction was well-_*executed*_*.*


Agree - it headed any follow-up questions off.


----------



## Ripper2860

Laines said:


> I'm looking for some dark sounding 6sn7 with a good bass extention. Any recommendations?


40's RCA grey glass might be worth exploring if you're wanting vintage NOS.


----------



## domiji

Hello Tube Lovers  

a few weeks ago i've got my first tube headphone amplifier. A heavy modded DarkVoice and from now i am tube rolling 

At the moment i use a PSvane tube and wait for my Ken Rad VT-231 (black one). 

I am also looking at some Fivre tubes. Has anyone experience with the Fivre 6SN7?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 15, 2021)

domiji said:


> Hello Tube Lovers
> 
> a few weeks ago i've got my first tube headphone amplifier. A heavy modded DarkVoice and from now i am tube rolling
> 
> ...


I have heard in excess of 1900 6SN7’s and equivalents but it is hard for me to talk about a few characteristics since friends and I use 25 criteria. 😁 As I recall they did all right though.  I always liked the Ken-Rad black glass as did many who were exposed to it in blind tests I conducted, the grey glass 1940's RCA was a favorite of Jason Stoddard at Schiit when he conducted a test using my tubes.


----------



## jonathan c

A repeat gigantic thank you to @Paladin79 for his counsel to me on the Melz 1578 6N8S some time ago in this thread. There is a pair of the 1959 vintage (along with Brimar CV455 KB/FB [Footscray D-getter 1956]) in my Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL MZ3…..divine!


----------



## Slade01

Laines said:


> I'm looking for some dark sounding 6sn7 with a good bass extention. Any recommendations?


You'd want to try a Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231.


----------



## UntilThen

Are there no GE love here?


----------



## HTSkywalker

JTbbb said:


> I have been much amused by recent posts in this thread, the repertoire has brought a smile to my face everyday! Along the way there has been mentioned some tube types that got me thinking about a couple of pairs I have in my modest collection. So, after doing some research again, and reaffirming that the latter half of the 20th century was indeed full of tube skulduggery, I’m confused 😕. Any help much appreciated.
> 
> So the first pair, Mullard or Brimar? 60’s? Or can they be tied down to an actual year?
> 
> Second pair, ’45? I think I got that date from here. But are they military spec?


I vouch for the Raytheons, they rock especially the T Plates


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> 40's RCA grey glass might be worth exploring if you're wanting vintage NOS.


I second that


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> Are there no GE love here?


Wrong forum 😂😂😂


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> Wrong forum 😂😂😂



Should I start a 'The Reference GE tube thread' or I'll get Bcowen to start it.


----------



## LoryWiv

Varejao17 said:


> Agree - it headed any follow-up questions off.


Boy @Varejao17 you really stuck your neck out with that reply.


----------



## Paladin79

UntilThen said:


> Should I start a 'The Reference GE tube thread' or I'll get Bcowen to start it.


I think you should jointly start it and wait for the replies to come rolling in so the two of you can answer any and all questions.😺😺😺


----------



## UntilThen

Paladin79 said:


> I think you should jointly start it and wait for the replies to come rolling in so the two of you can answer any and all questions.😺😺😺



We take all GE questions and only pictures of GE tubes allowed.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2021)

I don't think a sadomasochist thread would be allowed at HF.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 15, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> We take all GE questions and only pictures of GE tubes allowed.


I'd rather go hang out in the $25 Class D solid state amp thread.  Painful still, but less so.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I'd rather go hang out in the $25 Class D solid state amp thread.  Painful still, but less so.


Traitor. I’m getting a GE 5U4G rectifier!


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Traitor. I’m getting a GE 5U4G rectifier wrecktifier!


FTFY…[Reg. TM, © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't think a sadomasochist thread would be allowed at HF.


But the GE tubes could front a BAD* reference thread…

(*bondage & discipline)


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, that correction was well-_*executed*_*.*


Aw shucks, just a chop off the old block…


----------



## jonathan c

I had to pursue this on behalf of the newly purchased LTA MicroZOTL MZ3 headphone amplifier….:


----------



## Laines

Ripper2860 said:


> 40's RCA grey glass might be worth exploring if you're wanting vintage NOS.


Will look out for them thank you!


----------



## tubebuyer2020

I kind of like GE, with their balanced sections and reduced microphonics, but I guess that's just me  🤷‍♂️:


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2021)

One more comment like that and I will be forced to place you in time-out (my user ignore list) for 1 day.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 16, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> I had to pursue this on behalf of the newly purchased LTA MicroZOTL MZ3 headphone amplifier….:


Those are indeed wonderful tubes and not easy to find from the 50’s and early 60's. Great balance over the entire sound spectrum. I bought a fairly large group of the 63's at one point but they did not last long since the demand was high. If you buy enough you can get matched pairs and matched quads.


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I kind of like GE, with their balanced sections and reduced microphonics, but I guess that's just me  🤷‍♂️:


I cannot make them out, does that have the etched dots on it?


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I think you should jointly start it and wait for the replies to come rolling in so the two of you can answer any and all questions.😺😺😺


As for you Tom, you can start the Melz thread. You already have materials to fill 100 of pages 🙂🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> Should I start a 'The Reference GE tube thread' or I'll get Bcowen to start it.


The one with the bigger collection of GE tubes should start it 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I kind of like GE, with their balanced sections and reduced microphonics, but I guess that's just me  🤷‍♂️:


Good! GE lovers are stocking up for the new thread 🙂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> As for you Tom, you can start the Melz thread. You already have materials to fill 100 of pages 🙂🙂


There are a couple years I do not own yet, I do not want to start a buying frenzy.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> One more comment like that and I will be forced to place you in time-out (my user ignore list) for 1 day.


Or in a budget ‘chi-fi’ solid-state thread…


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Paladin79 said:


> I cannot make them out, does that have the etched dots on it?



My apologies, I actually made a mistake. I thought I would cleverly bamboozle everyone with a Canadian 12v heater variant, but it turns out that GE rebranded Rogers rather than the other way around...  So that's a Rogers in fact.


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> My apologies, I actually made a mistake. I thought I would cleverly bamboozle everyone with a Canadian 12v heater variant, but it turns out that GE rebranded Rogers rather than the other way around...  So that's a Rogers in fact.


Oh ok lol, it did look a bit odd to me. Mind you I have only bought GE 6sn7's to win a bet with @bcowen so for a while there I owned quite a few.


----------



## Galapac

Someday GE tubes will regin when there are no other tubes left, not sure if I will be around for that day...we all must own at least a couple non 5998A ones...


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Good! GE lovers are stocking up for the new thread 🙂


They have to line up for the thread before stocking up for the thread…asking a bit much?…


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Someday GE tubes will regin when there are no other tubes left, not sure if I will be around for that day...we all must own at least a couple non 5998A ones...


The GE kingdom will resemble Scar’s kingdom in The Lion King…


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> The GE kingdom will resemble Scar’s kingdom in The Lion King…


Or something like this...one tube to rule them all...lol.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Galapac said:


> Or something like this...one tube to rule them all...lol.



Ah, GE perforated plate fire-wire novals - a solid choice indeed:


----------



## cddc

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I kind of like GE, with their balanced sections and reduced microphonics, but I guess that's just me  🤷‍♂️:




I've never seen a T-plate GE, the inner structure of the tube looks like a Sylvania W or WGT, so very likely a Sylvania rebrand.


----------



## Ripper2860

GE tubes will survive after all others perish.  They are the cockroach of the tube world.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2021)

cddc said:


> I've never seen a T-plate GE, the inner structure of the tube looks like a Sylvania W or WGT, so very likely a Sylvania rebrand.



Agreed about it not looking like a GE structure, however, the flashing doesn't come down far enough to be a Sylvie W as those are typically covered at 1/2 of the tube.  I cannot really tell w/ certainty on this pic, but this looks like it may be a standard bottle.  WGTs were short bottles, IIRC.  THe umbrella top mica and center support rod are so characteristic of a W, however.


----------



## UntilThen

Taking applications for GE membership. Send your forms to Bcowen.


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> Agreed about it not looking like a GE structure, however, the flashing doesn't come down far enough to be a Sylvie W as those are typically covered at 1/2 of the tube.  I cannot really tell w/ certainty on this pic, but this looks like it may be a standard bottle.  WGTs were short bottles, IIRC.



Below are the Rogers tubes a Spanish vender is selling. It's about the same length as Sylvania W or WGT, only anomaly is the getter flashing not going down as much as W or WGT. 

So I think it's very likely a Sylvania rebrand, or at least Rogers imported the cage from Sylvania and put on their own glass and base in Canada.


----------



## UntilThen

Found priceless GE 6sn7 gtb red label super exclusive match pair.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2021)

cddc said:


> Below are the Rogers tubes a Spanish vender is selling. It's about the same length as Sylvania W or WGT, only anomaly is the getter flashing not going down as much as W or WGT.
> 
> So I think it's very likely a Sylvania rebrand, or at least Rogers imported the cage from Sylvania and put on their own glass and base in Canada.



W's also have an OVAL bottom mica -- not round.


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> W's also have an OVAL bottom mica -- not round.




Maybe it's just viewing angle, I see round bottom mica, not oval...

Again, pic from the Spanish vender


----------



## cddc

I saw your point now, Sylvania W does have oval-ish bottom micas, but Sylvania WGT/WGTA have round bottom micas.

Anyway, I think this tube must have a close connection to Sylvania or Sylvania parts.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2021)

Agreed!!  There is definitely a Sylvania lineage here w/ the Rogers implementation closely resembling the WGT.  (My guess is WGTA)


----------



## darkarn

Hey but GE 5670 tubes are great!

No wait this is the wrong thread


----------



## UntilThen

darkarn said:


> Hey but GE 5670 tubes are great!
> 
> No wait this is the wrong thread



It's the right thread ! It's now the GE Reference thread.


----------



## Mr Trev

So, for today's round of "What is that?":
https://www.amazon.ca/Davitu-Boutique-Soviet-tubes-ecc33/dp/B07M9JQN2V


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> GE lovers are stocking up for the new thread 🙂


Yes they are.  Both of them.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Traitor. I’m getting a GE 5U4G rectifier!


Well I'll be optimistic for you that it doesn't suck.  Not to be be confused with sounding good, just that maybe it won't sound really bad.  Maybe.  2% chance of maybe, probably.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Taking applications for GE membership. Send your forms to Bcowen.


Or don't.  Either way, I empty my spam folder regularly so not a big deal.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> So, for today's round of "What is that?":
> https://www.amazon.ca/Davitu-Boutique-Soviet-tubes-ecc33/dp/B07M9JQN2V


1967 Fotons.  A decent $5 tube.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2021)

I'd take a pass on any 1960+ Fotons, but that's just me.  Maybe early 60's, but mid to late, nope.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'd take a pass on any 1960+ Fotons, but that's just me.  Maybe early 60's, but mid to late, nope.


Me too, and especially at that silly price.  But for around $5 they are quiet and reliable and sound better than some current production 6SN7's that I've heard.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Yes they are.  Both of them.



Come on slow coach ! My pictures are dying to be published !


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Me too, and especially at that silly price.  But for around $5 they are quiet and reliable and sound better than some current production 6SN7's that I've heard.


True.  One could do worse (GE)...  😄


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> Come on slow coach ! My pictures are dying to be published !


Heu @UntilThen, GE bashing aside, I've actually been considering trying 6BX7 or 6BL7 in my Feliks Elise....do they work natively (without adapters) in a 6SN7 or 6AS7G slot?


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Heu @UntilThen, GE bashing aside, I've actually been considering trying 6BX7 or 6BL7 in my Feliks Elise....do they work natively (without adapters) in a 6SN7 or 6AS7G slot?



Of course they do. I've used singles in the 6as7 slots as power tubes but they sound better as doubles with these adapters.  In fact this is a very potent setup and the sound is dynamic and punchy. Those are Siemens c3gs as drivers in strapped triode modes.

I've also used these 6bx7 as doubles in Wa22. Same satisfaction.

Strangely I kept all my pictures filed away in folders.... right from when I started in head-fi in 2015. This is Elise btw and I got Euforia later.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> 1967 Fotons.  A decent $5 tube.


Well, that doesn't sound very boutique


----------



## bcowen (Jul 17, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Well, that doesn't sound very boutique


LOL!  It's all relative to the boutiques you're used to shopping at.  

This is the high-end division of "Canadian Dollar Tree."  

(edited due to poor grammar)


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> LOL!  It's all relative to the boutiques you're used to shopping at.
> 
> This is the high-end division of Canadian Dollar Tree.



It's "Dollar Trée"


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> It's "Dollar Trée"


How careless of me.  Edited above for correctness.


----------



## LoryWiv (Jul 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  It's all relative to the boutiques you're used to shopping at.
> 
> This is the high-end division of "Canadian Dollar Tree."
> 
> (edited due to poor grammar)


Do they sell vacuum tubes. I've searched high and low at Target (pronounced "tar-jay"), no luck.

Take heart though, @bcowen, there is a GE waiting for you nestled amongst the nouveau tubes at Wally's World!


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Do they sell vacuum, tunes. I've searched high and low at Target (pronounced "tar-jay", no luck.
> 
> Take heart though, @bcowen, there is a GE waiting for you nestled amongst the nouveau tubes at Wally's World!


Now that's downright hilarious....tubes at Wally World!  Absolute certainty they are carefully tested and have perfectly matched triodes.  

And even a Wal-Mart(ey) price on that GE.  But $76.73 for a Chinese rectifier that's guaranteed to last _exactly_ 3 months and then red plate?  Back to TarJay for me.


----------



## LoryWiv (Jul 17, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Of course they do. I've used singles in the 6as7 slots as power tubes but they sound better as doubles with these adapters.  In fact this is a very potent setup and the sound is dynamic and punchy. Those are Siemens c3gs as drivers in strapped triode modes.
> 
> I've also used these 6bx7 as doubles in Wa22. Same satisfaction.
> 
> Strangely I kept all my pictures filed away in folders.... right from when I started in head-fi in 2015. This is Elise btw and I got Euforia later.


Did you use external heaters for the double 6BL7 in each slot as that would be 6A of heater current...? Perhaps not as I know the c3G are only around 0.8A together so still under threshold.

Also, did you ever try 6BL7 / 6BX7 ias drivers in Elise?

Thanks @UntilThen!


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> Did you use external heaters for the double 6BL7 in each slot as that would be 6A of heater current...? Perhaps not as I know the c3G are only around 0.8A together so still under threshold.
> 
> Also, did you ever try 6BL7 / 6BX7 ias drivers in Elise?
> 
> Thanks @UntilThen!



No I did not use external heaters as they are under the threshold. I don't use 6bx7 as drivers in Elise of Euforia. I still don't get how people love using KT66 or KT88 as drivers in Elise. Those are power tubes.... Anyway, anyone can roll their boat however they want.


----------



## LoryWiv

UntilThen said:


> No I did not use external heaters as they are under the threshold. I don't use 6bx7 as drivers in Elise of Euforia. I still don't get how people love using KT66 or KT88 as drivers in Elise. Those are power tubes.... Anyway, anyone can roll their boat however they want.


I think that's why @bcowen drove your golf cart into the lake...he thought it was a boat!

I just ordered (dread) GE 6BL7 to try in Elise. GE 6550A prices seem to be on the rise and I'm not willing to pay $200 for them. The 6BL7 were very inexpensive and as my experience with GE 7581A was good (a bit warm-ish though, I have them listed for sale now) decided to buck the anti-GE trend at this price and try for myself. If they suck the seller accepts returns!


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> I think that's why @bcowen drove your golf cart into the lake...he thought it was a boat!
> 
> I just ordered (dread) GE 6BL7 to try in Elise. GE 6550A prices seem to be on the rise and I'm not willing to pay $200 for them. The 6BL7 were very inexpensive and as my experience with GE 7581A was good (a bit warm-ish though, I have them listed for sale now) decided to buck the anti-GE trend at this price and try for myself. If they suck the seller accepts returns!


Well, it _looks_ like a boat.  Who knew?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Well, it _looks_ like a boat.  Who knew?



Love this !


----------



## UntilThen (Jul 17, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> GE 6550A prices seem to be on the rise and I'm not willing to pay $200 for them.



How did I miss this?  I have a pair of Tung Sol 6550 1960s.

Quote from https://www.thetubestore.com/ge-6550a

Legendary 6550A tubes in original boxes made by General Electric in Owensboro, Kentucky. Triple getter in straight glass with metal bases. A balanced tube known for their incredible bottom end and rich mids. This GE 6550 tube is an excellent choice for Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, and Jadis hifi amplifiers.

Bcowen, do you live in Kentucky?

Wow these GE 6550A are so expensive.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> How did I miss this?  I have a pair of Tung Sol 6550 1960s.
> 
> Quote from https://www.thetubestore.com/ge-6550a
> 
> ...


I used to, but I moved at the end of 1945 when things started going downhill.  Strangely, that's when the Owensboro KenRad plant was sold to GE.  Coincidence, I'm sure.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> I used to, but I moved at the end of 1945



Holy smoke, are you that young? I need a young.. er caddie not a WW2 veteran.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Holy smoke, are you that young? I need a young.. er caddie not a WW2 veteran.


Does that mean you _don't_ want to hear my WW1 stories?  Fine.  I'll tell them again to my great great grandchildren who _always_ love to hear them.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Does that mean you _don't_ want to hear my WW1 stories?  Fine.  I'll tell them again to my great great grandchildren who _always_ love to hear them.


Is that Wireless World issue 1 that you mean?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Is that Wireless World issue 1 that you mean?


No, telegraph machines were still wired then.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> There are a couple years I do not own yet, I do not want to start a buying frenzy.😜


Sure, first you should suck the market completely 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Someday GE tubes will regin when there are no other tubes left, not sure if I will be around for that day...we all must own at least a couple non 5998A ones...


Sure thing coz it will be the least used tube 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> They have to line up for the thread before stocking up for the thread…asking a bit much?…


Problem is that stocking is out of the question after experiencing the first tube 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> GE tubes will survive after all others perish.  They are the cockroach of the tube world.


Coz They are the cool tubes where all other tubes are working hard and hot 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> Found priceless GE 6sn7 gtb red label super exclusive match pair.


Price-less indeed 😛😛😛


----------



## HTSkywalker

LoryWiv said:


> Do they sell vacuum tubes. I've searched high and low at Target (pronounced "tar-jay"), no luck.
> 
> Take heart though, @bcowen, there is a GE waiting for you nestled amongst the nouveau tubes at Wally's World!


Well they sell Rib-eye steaks 🙂🙂


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Sure, first you should suck the market completely 😁😁😁


There are not that many of the Melz I want out there so it takes a long time to find the ones I do not have. Having heard most any 6sn7 made, my likes are very specific.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> There are not that many of the Melz I want out there so it takes a long time to find the ones I do not have. Having heard most any 6sn7 made, my likes are very specific.


My likes are much less specific.

Never:  GE and Philips ECG.
Possible:  Everything else

I like the simple life.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 18, 2021)

bcowen said:


> My likes are much less specific.
> 
> Never:  GE and Philips ECG.
> Possible:  Everything else
> ...



I have an offer on my Lyr 3 with multibit card, I did a final listen with a dozen tubes, Focal Utopias as headphones. A 1578 from 1958 won for me hands down. It was the only Melz I tried. I best not mention those that lost.😎 It is not the Melz that scored highest in a tube challenge but it will do.

Life is also simple when you know what you like and stick with it. At least ten others who have listened seem to agree, seven scored tubes in a blind study as did I.


----------



## bcowen

ROFL!!  I thought about making an offer of $1.48, but that would be overpaying by $1.47.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Life is also simple when you know what you like and stick with it.


I like beer, but glad I tried wine.  I might try some Belvedere at some point too.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I like beer, but glad I tried wine.  I might try some Belvedere at some point too.


I am always willing to learn from others, my son has scotch tastings and arranges the bottles by regions of Scotland. Having tried many, I personally like 21 year old Balvenie (Belvedere to Bill) but it is a little pricey for everyday usage, the 14 year old stored in rum casks is decent. I do like beer and wine of course and dark rums and have narrowed them down pretty well for my own personal tastes. 

Now as far as tubes, I do have plenty to change out if I want to try for a specific sound. I do not like to add equalizers to my audio chain so I am more apt to shape sound with tubes. I will invest in a tube DAC one day but my short term goals include paying down all my debt before I do that.


----------



## LoryWiv

HTSkywalker said:


> Well they sell Rib-eye steaks 🙂🙂


Yes, and you can serve them on grey plates. Come and "getter", suppers on!


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I am always willing to learn from others, my son has scotch tastings and arranges the bottles by regions of Scotland. Having tried many, I personally like 21 year old Balvenie (Belvedere to Bill) but it is a little pricey for everyday usage, the 14 year old stored in rum casks is decent. I do like beer and wine of course and dark rums and have narrowed them down pretty well for my own personal tastes.
> 
> Now as far as tubes, I do have plenty to change out if I want to try for a specific sound. I do not like to add equalizers to my audio chain so I am more apt to shape sound with tubes. I will invest in a tube DAC one day but my short term goals include paying down all my debt before I do that.


The Balvenie 14 is very good, but the 12 year doublewood is also acceptable without breaking the bank. No one in this area carried the 21, even the 14 is scarce.


----------



## DenverW

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  I thought about making an offer of $1.48, but that would be overpaying by $1.47.


With bad luck he would accept that offer and you’d pay another 12.90 for shipping.  It would start getting a bit depressing...


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Now as far as tubes, I do have plenty to change out if I want to try for a specific sound. I do not like to add equalizers to my audio chain so I am more apt to shape sound with tubes.


I know that I mentioned this a while ago: Schiit Audio names its equaliser ‘Loki’ the Norse god of _mischief._ Hmm…


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> My likes are much less specific.
> 
> Never:  GE and Philips ECG.
> Possible:  Everything else
> ...


Hopefully this concept is only limited to tubes 🙄🙄


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I am always willing to learn from others, my son has scotch tastings and arranges the bottles by regions of Scotland. Having tried many, I personally like 21 year old Balvenie (Belvedere to Bill) but it is a little pricey for everyday usage, the 14 year old stored in rum casks is decent. I do like beer and wine of course and dark rums and have narrowed them down pretty well for my own personal tastes.
> 
> Now as far as tubes, I do have plenty to change out if I want to try for a specific sound. I do not like to add equalizers to my audio chain so I am more apt to shape sound with tubes. I will invest in a tube DAC one day but my short term goals include paying down all my debt before I do that.


MacAllan 18, take my word for it. Even a GE tube will sound out of this world 😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, and you can serve them on grey plates. Come and "getter", suppers on!


You can even grill them on a Darkvoice amp 😁😁😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> The Balvenie 14 is very good, but the 12 year doublewood is also acceptable without breaking the bank. No one in this area carried the 21, even the 14 is scarce.


Agree, the 12 year is a good "budget" choice and it does have a nice taste to it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> I know that I mentioned this a while ago: Schiit Audio names its equaliser ‘Loki’ the Norse god of _mischief._ Hmm…


Coz an equalizer would also F$#@ up the sound same as Loki, quoted from Wiki "*a cunning trickster who had the ability to change his shape and sex" 😂😂😂*


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> MacAllan 18, take my word for it. Even a GE tube will sound out of this world 😂😂😂


I have tried it and as with audio YMMV.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> You can even grill them on a Darkvoice amp 😁😁😁


If you want grill-by-amps done the right way, think Cary 211…


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> If you want grill-by-amps done the right way, think Cary 211…


Coupled with GE tubes 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If you want grill-by-amps done the right way, think Cary 211…


LOL!  Back in LBK (Life Before Kid), a couple 211's warmed up the room nicely.  But with the tube's exterior glass temperature at close to 475 degrees (F), not exactly kid friendly.  And not my favorite Cary amps either....


----------



## jonathan c

A public service announcement (also on the Schiit Mjolnir 2 Listening Impressions thread) as a 1970s-style instructional message: “This is a headphone amplifier (Picture A). This is a headphone amplifier on GE tubes (Picture B). Any questions?”

Picture A:



Picture B:


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> A public service announcement (also on the Schiit Mjolnir 2 Listening Impressions thread) as a 1970s-style instructional message: “This is a headphone amplifier (Picture A). This is a headphone amplifier on GE tubes (Picture B). Any questions?”
> 
> Picture A:



Here, FTFY.      

Picture B:


----------



## AudioGal

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Back in LBK (Life Before Kid), a couple 211's warmed up the room nicely.  But with the tube's exterior glass temperature at close to 475 degrees (F), not exactly kid friendly.  And not my favorite Cary amps either....


What's with the porcelain insulators under the speaker cables? 
Other than it looking like the owner has some sort of power line fetish, what's the intention?


----------



## Paladin79

AudioGal said:


> What's with the porcelain insulators under the speaker cables?
> Other than it looking like the owner has some sort of power line fetish, what's the intention?


I know the answer to this but I prefer to hear Bill’s response lol. I tried to get my wife to make some of those with her pottery but I have all of my speaker cables on ceramic tiles anyway so they would do little good.😜 think carpet static.


----------



## bcowen

AudioGal said:


> What's with the porcelain insulators under the speaker cables?
> Other than it looking like the owner has some sort of power line fetish, what's the intention?


Well, it's one of those audiophile neurosis things that some swear by and others scoff at.  In that room, lifting the cables off the floor made an audible improvement. Not huge, night or day or anything, but audible and better.  Why? Some say it reduces vibration in the cable (which I find rather specious), some say it has to do with a reduction in coupling of the magnetic field surrounding the cable to earth (maybe-ish?), and others say it reduces the effect of static electricity on the signal in the cable (most plausible IME).  That room had a nylon/wool blend carpet on a concrete slab floor.  In my current house I have a suspended hardwood floor (crawlspace underneath). I could not tell one bit of difference in this room, try as I might.  I doubt any of this is measurable, so it's basically a YMMV kind of thing that likely depends on the environment and/or floor construction details.  Easy enough to try with just some inverted plastic cups or something, and if an improvement is heard then a little more aesthetically pleasing device can be used.  If not, use the cups for beer.    I got those ceramic ones for cheap a long time ago and thought they looked better than cups...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, it's one of those audiophile neurosis things that some swear by and others scoff at.  In that room, lifting the cables off the floor made an audible improvement. Not huge, night or day or anything, but audible and better.  Why? Some say it reduces vibration in the cable (which I find rather specious), some say it has to do with a reduction in coupling of the magnetic field surrounding the cable to earth (maybe-ish?), and others say it reduces the effect of static electricity on the signal in the cable (most plausible IME).  That room had a nylon/wool blend carpet on a concrete slab floor.  In my current house I have a suspended hardwood floor (crawlspace underneath). I could not tell one bit of difference in this room, try as I might.  I doubt any of this is measurable, so it's basically a YMMV kind of thing that likely depends on the environment and/or floor construction details.  Easy enough to try with just some inverted plastic cups or something, and if an improvement is heard then a little more aesthetically pleasing device can be used.  If not, use the cups for beer.    I got those ceramic ones for cheap a long time ago and thought they looked better than cups...


Notice how Bill worked his way to the more plausible answer.😜😜 I personally do not have the background to do pseudo-science but it is entertaining to hear the theories. I do not have enough interest in this to set up experiments.😸😸😸


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 23, 2021)

I have 4 of those myself, and they were dirt cheap. Ten bucks a pop years ago. They are heavy and can be used in lieu of wood clamps in a pinch.


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 23, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Notice how Bill worked his way to the more plausible answer.😜😜 I personally do not have the background to do pseudo-science but it is entertaining to hear the theories. I do not have enough interest in this to set up experiments.😸😸😸



Static electricity is a major issue for me during winters with hot air heat and industrial grade carpeting. By spring my fingertips are usually blackened from the scorching I get from everything I touched during the winter months.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> Static electricity is a major issue for me during winters with hot air heat and industrial grade carpeting. By spring my fingertips are usually blackened from the scorching I get from everything I touched during the winter months.


Natural materials like cotton drain static charges as they form, I prefer using cotton mesh around headphone cables, interconnects and even power cables since I am able to buy it in all kinds of sizes. I also like the looks of it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Natural materials like cotton drain static charges as they form, I prefer using cotton mesh around headphone cables, interconnects and even power cables since I am able to buy it in all kinds of sizes. I also like the looks of it.


Cotton would not be the best choice for carpet I don't think unless you wanted to replace it annually.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Cotton would not be the best choice for carpet I don't think unless you wanted to replace it annually.


Of course not lol! Much easier to just sheath you cables instead of building mini suspension bridges.😜😜


----------



## bcowen (Jul 23, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Of course not lol! Much easier to just sheath you cables instead of building mini suspension bridges.😜😜


I bet these $350/3 Shunyata thingies are less expensive than your fancy sheathing.    And there's lots of, um, science(?) behind them too.  Pseudo science is still science, right? 

Honestly, I've always liked Shunyata products but I'll just have to say "too much" when it comes to these.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> Static electricity is a major issue for me during winters with hot air heat and industrial grade carpeting. By spring my fingertips are usually blackened from the scorching I get from everything I touched during the winter months.


You should probably try some cotton carpet.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should probably try some cotton carpet.


I introduced him to cotton sock/shoes kinda like what you get in a hospital so you do not slip, sue them, and break even!! 😜😜😜


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I bet these $350/3 Shunyata thingies are less expensive than your fancy sheathing.    And there's lots of, um, science(?) behind them too.  Pseudo science is still science, right?
> 
> Honestly, I've always liked Shunyata products but I'll just have to say "too much" when it comes to these.


You can get 25 yards of sheathing for like $35, you do the math.😜 It also comes in multiple colors.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> You can get 25 yards of sheathing for like $35, you do the math.😜 It also comes in multiple colors.


I've found silk sheathing on AE. I always figured that'd be good for headphone cables. Nice and… silky.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I've found silk sheathing on AE. I always figured that'd be good for headphone cables. Nice and… silky.


Silk is also a natural fabric that is great with static electricity, rayon as well since it is made of cellulose fibers. I like the cotton I use because it will adjust to different size cables and stay snug.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Silk is also a natural fabric that is great with static electricity, rayon as well since it is made of cellulose fibers. I like the cotton I use because it will adjust to different size cables and stay snug.


And also match your carpet?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

You guys have to see this. Currently at nearly 420 GBP and the bidding ain't over. This is beyond crazy under any circumstance for a tube. Does it sound like "praise baby Jesus" or what is the deal? 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154522030770


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 25, 2021)

Yeah.  True / metal base B65 prices have always been high, but prices now are *INSANE*!!!!


----------



## Mr Trev

Well, the ad does state rare _and_ strong…


----------



## Paladin79

Luckily we have plenty for a tube challenge, I would hate to buy them now lol. They rate all right but not exactly at the top so far.


----------



## jonathan c

CaptainFantastic said:


> You guys have to see this. Currently at nearly 420 GBP and the bidding ain't over. This is beyond crazy under any circumstance for a tube. Does it sound like "praise baby Jesus" or what is the deal?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154522030770


An unsavvy buyer can therefore say: "it cost a fortune so it must be good"...irrespective of actual sound / reliability / other...


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> "it cost a fortune so it must be good"


Ah, consumerism's mission statement.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Ah, consumerism's mission statement.


Imagine paying a high price for that tube and being objective in your evaluation. The best one we have of that type will be mixed with 51 other quality tubes and evaluated in a blind listening. $75 and $150 tubes could beat it, then what is the true value? We are working on a group of 50 such listeners, most of which have done this before.😜


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Silk is also a natural fabric that is great with static electricity, rayon as well since it is made of cellulose fibers. I like the cotton I use because it will adjust to different size cables and stay snug.


Since you brought up making cables, and off-topic is a way of life round this thread, any suggestions for what to use as a splitter (or does Mrs. Paladin just make custom ceramic pieces for you). That's where I always go blank - so much easier when you have single sided earphones


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 25, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Since you brought up making cables, and off-topic is a way of life round this thread, any suggestions for what to use as a splitter (or does Mrs. Paladin just make custom ceramic pieces for you). That's where I always go blank - so much easier when you have single sided earphones


I have carved some out of hardwoods. My wife is too busy helping me design headphone stands to mess with tiny things like that. I am learning slip casting with ceramics and I bet I could make those with a two piece mold.😎




Today I am reworking one of my amps so it looks better or I would find you a video of slip casting.😜

Here is one but it is a single piece mold.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 25, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I have carved some out of hardwoods. My wife is too busy helping me design headphone stands to mess with tiny things like that. I am learning slip casting with ceramics and I bet I could make those with a two piece mold.😎
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ceramic would be pretty cool, but I prefer unobtanium for my splitters.  Costs a lot more but therefore sounds better.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Ceramic would be pretty cool, but I prefer unobtanium for my splitters.  Costs a lot more but therefore sounds better.


Beats the hell out of the twist ties and rubber bands I was thinking about using


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Imagine paying a high price for that tube and being objective in your evaluation. The best one we have of that type will be mixed with 51 other quality tubes and evaluated in a blind listening. $75 and $150 tubes could beat it, then what is the true value? We are working on a group of 50 such listeners, most of which have done this before.😜


On 50 different amps? WOW!


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> On 50 different amps? WOW!


4 amps with quality switching, 4 tubes at a time, 13 rounds. I designed and built the 4 amps. 25 audio criteria, 4 point system. Top score is 100 and only a few tubes came close to that in preliminary testing. Simple huh??😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Ceramic would be pretty cool, but I prefer unobtanium for my splitters.  Costs a lot more but therefore sounds better.


Cardboards is a good option too and very easy to work with 😁😁


----------



## tubebuyer2020 (Jul 26, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah.  True / metal base B65 prices have always been high, but prices now are *INSANE*!!!!



Cheaper than Langrex  though - and they have like 12 in stock (including matched sets): https://www.langrex.co.uk/?s=b65&post_type=product

I hope there is platinum and palladium inside.


----------



## Ripper2860

For that kind of money, they better sound AWESOME, as we all make me coffee, rub my feet...


----------



## FLTWS

For that kinda' money you don't play them at all. You put them in a glass display case as "objet d'art" to admire.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> 4 amps with quality switching, 4 tubes at a time, 13 rounds. I designed and built the 4 amps. 25 audio criteria, 4 point system. Top score is 100 and only a few tubes came close to that in preliminary testing. Simple huh??😜😜


I'm guessing the participants that guess "wrong" get tossed into the skull-pit?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I'm guessing the participants that guess "wrong" get tossed into the skull-pit?


They are never heard from again.   
There is no right or wrong lol, and they are merely scoring their own responses to 25 criteria, as they hear them. At the end they can compare some of their top choices head to head. This process can take all weekend or longer, it is not for the faint of heart. There is a party afterwards and we tend to give gifts. Many have been through the process when we listened to DAC's and other equipment, this will be the most grueling agenda but we do not lack for volunteers.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> They are never heard from again.
> There is no right or wrong lol, and they are merely scoring their own responses to 25 criteria, as they hear them. At the end they can compare some of their top choices head to head. This process can take all weekend or longer, it is not for the faint of heart. There is a party afterwards and we tend to give gifts. Many have been through the process when we listened to DAC's and other equipment, this will be the most grueling agenda but we do not lack for volunteers.


It’s a tough job but it’s an honour ‘tu be’ picked for duty 🇺🇸…


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> I'm guessing the participants that guess "wrong" get tossed into the skull ‘perfect measurement’ solid-state pit…


FTFY….[ Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021 ]


----------



## attmci

FLTWS said:


> For that kinda' money you don't play them at all. You put them in a glass display case as "objet d'art" to admire.


Very true. Now I can not remember where I stored my B65.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Very true. Now I can not remember where I stored my B65.


We have a couple one of a kind tubes that may be in the final mix in my blind study, most have a relative value, these do not.😀 A couple were valued well over $1,000 each last listing I recall and well over $50k as a group. This is a one time shot, tubes are getting scarce and this was a lot of work.


----------



## FLTWS

The cost of exotic "NOS", (of unknown quality and usable performance life remaining), made me drop out of the "first one to die with the most expensive tubes wins" contest.


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> The cost of exotic "NOS", (of unknown quality and usable performance life remaining), made me drop out of the "first one to die with the most expensive tubes wins" contest.


Luckily friends own or bought most of these tubes. I might have snuck in a few noteworthy Melz, Ken-Rads, Sylvanias, and Tung Sols but rarely did my cost exceed $150. Designing and building the amps was my biggest contribution and a few folks on here might be glad I undertook that endeavor.😁


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Luckily friends own or bought most of these tubes. I might have snuck in a few noteworthy Melz, Ken-Rads, Sylvanias, and Tung Sols but rarely did my cost exceed $150. Designing and building the amps was my biggest contribution and a few folks on here might be glad I undertook that endeavor.😁


There is no doubt in my mind that @Paladin79 has designed and built a very fine headphone amp named Incubus. Although it may look like a Dark Voice or Bottlehead Crack in that it utilizes 1-6SN7 and 1-6AS7, the fundamental difference [without divulging any design information] is ATTENTION TO DETAIL. paladin is careful to address the plethora of design details that affect sonic performance [and can kill a design through a thousand little compromises]. The remarkable property of Incubus is that even old [78] tone deaf listeners have no trouble discerning differences between various 6SN7 and 6AS7 tubes in a OTL headphone amp. A remarkable design accomplishment, in my estimation.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> There is no doubt in my mind that @Paladin79 has designed and built a very fine headphone amp named Incubus. Although it may look like a Dark Voice or Bottlehead Crack in that it utilizes 1-6SN7 and 1-6AS7, the fundamental difference [without divulging any design information] is ATTENTION TO DETAIL. paladin is careful to address the plethora of design details that affect sonic performance [and can kill a design through a thousand little compromises]. The remarkable property of Incubus is that even old [78] tone deaf listeners have no trouble discerning differences between various 6SN7 and 6AS7 tubes in a OTL headphone amp. A remarkable design accomplishment, in my estimation.


High praise indeed coming from someone with your background and experience.

I am currently listening to the Kinks from 1983 or so, Living on a Thin Line, Word of Mouth album. Using a GE 5998A for a bit of added bass and a Melz from 1956. I am loving this combo.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> High praise indeed coming from someone with your background and experience.
> 
> I am currently listening to the Kinks from 1983 or so, Living on a Thin Line, Word of Mouth album. Using a GE 5998A for a bit of added bass and a Melz from 1956. I am loving this combo.


You are most welcome. Excellence in design is a highly unrewarded virtue in today's instant gratification environment.


----------



## Zurv (Jul 26, 2021)

Are all the VT231s all gone.. boo.. I always wanted to hear a Kenrad.
anyone know a good dealer/seller that has a pair (that is tested) and not crazy priced?


----------



## Renexx

Are these real fivre 6sn7 tubes ? Anybody has experience with these tubes ? Do they sound good ? I saw they didn't sell for months.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/6SN7-FIVRE-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=707-127634-2357-0


----------



## cddc (Jul 26, 2021)

Renexx said:


> Are these real fivre 6sn7 tubes ? Anybody has experience with these tubes ? Do they sound good ? I saw they didn't sell for months.
> 
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/6SN7-FIVRE-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=707-127634-2357-0




These are fake Fivre tubes, you see how the seller intentionally removed all letters on the tubes...LOL

These are actually late Sylvania 6SN7GTB tubes, standing beside 2 Fivre boxes. What a shame!

As a rule of thumb STAY AWAY from those Italian sellers, they are either way overpriced or selling fake tubes.


----------



## Renexx

Yes you are right the insides look like my Sylvania 6sn7gtas. Thank you 👍


----------



## LoryWiv

Zurv said:


> Are all the VT231s all gone.. boo.. I always wanted to hear a Kenrad.
> anyone know a good dealer/seller that has a pair (that is tested) and not crazy priced?


They still surface here and there, but you are right not cheap. I recently bought a pair from Billington (UK) for around $200 USD, but to get this already hefty price you need minimum order of 240 GBP ($330USD) + shipping....it get's darn pricey but they are reputable. Another thought is to buy far more affordable Ken-Rad black glass 6V6 / VT-107A and use with adapters if your amp permits. As drivers in my Feliks-Audio Elise they give me a similar sound to the VT-231 for 1/2 the cost. I've bought from the seller below and had good experience, but of course you may want to hold out for the real-deal, YMMV yada yada. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265241505741


----------



## Zurv (Jul 26, 2021)

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't think my Woo WA5 can handle that tube.
(tho.. while looking i picked up a RCA JAN 5692 red base. ugh... no self control.)
(... and Tung Sol 6SN7GT 1950 2-hole gray plates  )


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> These are fake Fivre tubes, you see how the seller intentionally removed all letters on the tubes...LOL
> 
> These are actually late Sylvania 6SN7GTB tubes, standing beside 2 Fivre boxes. What a shame!
> 
> As a rule of thumb STAY AWAY from those Italian sellers, they are either way overpriced or selling fake tubes.


Do you like Fivre 6SN7 tubes? I do. It's poor man's ecc33.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm a huge fan.  A Fivre black base ladder plate tube is my current fav and has been firmly ensconced in my amp for months.  That's the longest I've ever gone without rolling a 6SN7 out.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Do you like Fivre 6SN7 tubes? I do. It's poor man's ecc33.


Ecc33's can still be had for under $250, I am not an expert on them but I do recall being exposed to a few variations. If they are close in construction we only allow one representative in the tube tests I alluded to earlier. They tend to be easier to find than some of my favorites. Some of the Fivre I heard are decent but not what I collect for home use.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Ecc33's can still be had for under $250, I am not an expert on them but I do recall being exposed to a few variations. If they are close in construction we only allow one representative in the tube tests I alluded to earlier. They tend to be easier to find than some of my favorites. Some of the Fivre I heard are decent but not what I collect for home use.


Interesting. They used to be more expensive than ECC35, and now seems reversed.


----------



## attmci (Jul 28, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm a huge fan.  A Fivre black base ladder plate tube is my current fav and has been firmly ensconced in my amp for months.  That's the longest I've ever gone without rolling a 6SN7 out.


It's very easy to identify a fivre 6sn7 from the top:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114532217664?hash=item1aaaa6f340:g:GNUAAOSwGYZfuM9G


----------



## CaptainFantastic

attmci said:


> It's very easy to identify a fivre 6sn7 from the top:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/114532217664?hash=item1aaaa6f340:g:GNUAAOSwGYZfuM9G



How come these Fivres have such low amounts of chromium? I have one from Langrex and I can't even see the chromium. It was "only" 65 GBP when I bought it, then it disappeared from their site. It was marked as "NOS" too...

Actually the first picture here shows a suggestion of chromium at the bottom, but with the naked eye it seems like it's not there at all.


----------



## Zurv

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm a huge fan.  A Fivre black base ladder plate tube is my current fav and has been firmly ensconced in my amp for months.  That's the longest I've ever gone without rolling a 6SN7 out.


more then CBS or RCA 5692s? or TS from the 50-60s?


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes.  That model is a bottom getter/flash version.  Sometimes it does not extend beyond the tube base.


----------



## Ripper2860

Zurv said:


> more then CBS or RCA 5692s? or TS from the 50-60s?


Yes to the 5692 -- At least the CBS/Hytron.  Don't know about the TS as I don't have any of their 6SN7 from that era.  Of course this is all with my gear and ears.  Gear synergy and personal preferences can make a huge diff.


----------



## Renexx

Is there a difference in sound between black and brown base fivre 6sn7? How do they compare in sonics to the nice VT-231s?


----------



## attmci (Jul 28, 2021)

Renexx said:


> Is there a difference in sound between black and brown base fivre 6sn7? How do they compare in sonics to the nice VT-231s?


They all sounds similar to my ears. There is a "Air Force" version, sounds slightly better. Let me found the pic.


----------



## LoryWiv (Jul 30, 2021)

OK, I've got my kevlar vest on so will just come right out with it: I'm running a pair of 1960 GE 6BL7 GTA drivers in Elise and damn if it isn't far better than expected. The treble is actually quite beautiful and extended, mids sounded a bit "wooden" and bass a bit flabby 1st few hours but both are definitely improving as I hit 10 hours or so. This is a 1.5A heater current / high amplification (15mu) triode FWIW, with an energetic sound and I like it best at low to medium volumes. And the kicker: It was $20 for the pair!

Bottom line: These won't be replacing my Ken Rad VT-231 or other favorite 6SN7 tubes but it's good to know there are still highly affordable tubes out there to play with even after I retire and my kids force me into a nursing home I can barely afford. And as for GE bashing, every hobby needs fodder for humor. In the symphony making fun of the viola is a given. Just don't be surprised if on occasion the viola soloist in the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante K. 364 steals the show.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. 🎶🎻


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> OK, I've got my kevlar vest on so will just come right out with it: I'm running a pair of 1960 GE 6BL7 GTA drivers in Elise and damn if it isn't far better than expected. The treble is actually quite beautiful and extended, mids sounded a bit "wooden" and bass a bit flabby 1st few hours but both are definitely improving as I hit 10 hours or so. This is a 1.5A heater current / high amplification (15mu) triode FWIW, with an energetic sound and I like it best at low to medium volumes. And the kicker: It was $20 for the pair!
> 
> Bottom line: These won't be replacing my Ken Rad VT-231 or other favorite 6SN7 tubes but it's good to know there are still highly affordable tubes out there to play with even after I retire and my kids force me into a nursing home I can barely afford. And as for GE bashing, every hobby needs fodder for humor. In the symphony making fun of the viola is a given. Just don't be surprised if on occasion the viola soloist in the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante K. 364 steals the show.
> 
> Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. 🎶🎻


There are some wonderful GE power tubes out there so it does not surprise me that folks like some of the other tubes.   It is easy to bend to opinions of others but if you like a tube, you like it, regardless of the brand name.


----------



## Slade01

LoryWiv said:


> In the symphony making fun of the viola is a given. Just don't be surprised if on occasion the viola soloist in the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante K. 364 steals the show.
> 
> Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. 🎶🎻


Just as an aside - when I used to play in orchestras growing up (high schools/city youth orchestra) it wasn't uncommon for us to swap instruments for fun during practices/breaks to see how the other instruments played.   Viola players always curious about violin and vice versa -- same for a cello and bass players.  

Although, yeah -- we still made fun of the viola.  But all in good fun.


----------



## Zurv (Jul 30, 2021)

woo.. testing time this weekend!




I'm starting with the RCA JAN. (GE - as it was GE that made the RCA 5962s. RCA never them.)
So far, like the seller pointed out - SUPER quiet!

*        Amplitrex AT1000 Test Results          uMhos & gV 95%+ = within NOS Specs*​*Mutual Conductance
 2600 = SPEC**Emission
 8.0 gV = SPEC**Noise
 Test**Gas & Shorts**TUBE #1**   2400/2460    (92.3/94.6%)**       7.9/7.9       (98.8/98.8%)**5/5 **PASS**TUBE #2**     2400/2440     (92.3/93.8%)**      8.0/7.8       (100.0/97.5)**5/5**PASS*

some p0rn







UPDATE:
so far they sound a lot like the CBS/Hytron (not a shocker)


----------



## whirlwind

Paladin79 said:


> Ecc33's can still be had for under $250, I am not an expert on them but I do recall being exposed to a few variations. If they are close in construction we only allow one representative in the tube tests I alluded to earlier. They tend to be easier to find than some of my favorites. Some of the Fivre I heard are decent but not what I collect for home use.


Yeah the ECC33 sound great, but they are not cheap..very nice tubes though


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Zurv said:


> woo.. testing time this weekend!
> 
> 
> I'm starting with the RCA JAN.
> ...



These tubes look great. Curious... what are the differences between these RCA JAN CRC 5692s and the RCA 5692? I understand that the 5692 is already at its origin a sturdy version of the 6SN7 designed to resist shocks from artillery, so is the JAN version the same basically or different and also different sounding?


----------



## rayshader (Aug 14, 2021)

Hi guys,  I am quite sure this isn't a BGRP, has anyone come across this version from the gt series? Any particular info for this variant?  Thanks​


----------



## bcowen

rayshader said:


> Hi guys,  I am quite sure this isn't a BGRP, has anyone come across this version from the gt series? Any particular info for this variant?  Thanks​


Definitely a BG, just not a RP.    The penetrations through the top mica are linear indicating a flat plate versus the U-shape you'd see in the round plate version.  I've never heard one with that configuration so can't offer anything helpful from that perspective, sorry.


----------



## rayshader

bcowen said:


> Definitely a BG, just not a RP.    The penetrations through the top mica are linear indicating a flat plate versus the U-shape you'd see in the round plate version.  I've never heard one with that configuration so can't offer anything helpful from that perspective, sorry.


Wow, what keen eyes you have! Yes its a flat plate configuration indeed. I found no information on this particular variant either, sonically I like it better than the mouse ears. Thanks for your input.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 14, 2021)

rayshader said:


> Wow, what keen eyes you have! Yes its a flat plate configuration indeed. I found no information on this particular variant either, sonically I like it better than the mouse ears. Thanks for your input.


Often if you use a high intensity light you can see the inside. I have heard those in both the black and clear glass. They are decent tubes but nothing memorable.
This should be the round plate version, it is also a GT. I loaned it out with one of my amps but should get it back one day. The recipient thought more of the Melz 1578 I sent and kept that as I recall.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Often if you use a high intensity light you can see the inside. I have heard those in both the black and clear glass. They are decent tubes but nothing memorable.
> This should be the round plate version, it is also a GT. I loaned it out with one of my amps but should get it back one day. The recipient thought more of the Melz 1578 I sent and kept that as I recall.


These are very decent reference 6SN7GT.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> These are very decent reference 6SN7GT.


They are certainly a good tube. As I recall they probably made the top twenty in some testing friends and I are working on.


----------



## rayshader

Paladin79 said:


> Often if you use a high intensity light you can see the inside. I have heard those in both the black and clear glass. They are decent tubes but nothing memorable.
> This should be the round plate version, it is also a GT. I loaned it out with one of my amps but should get it back one day. The recipient thought more of the Melz 1578 I sent and kept that as I recall.


I know full well what a bgrp is, I had a peek into the formation the day i received the tube too. In my limited journey I have not come across any flat plate variants from TS Gt series and staggered for the matter thus asked. To reply to a dialogue between me and another with a description "decent tubes but nothing memorable", serves little to the question asked if the comparison is against the Melz 1578 costing much more. I am sure Melz 1578 outperforms many. Thanks for your input anyway.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 15, 2021)

rayshader said:


> I know full well what a bgrp is, I had a peek into the formation the day i received the tube too. In my limited journey I have not come across any flat plate variants from TS Gt series and staggered for the matter thus asked. To reply to a dialogue between me and another with a description "decent tubes but nothing memorable", serves little to the question asked if the comparison is against the Melz 1578 costing much more. I am sure Melz 1578 outperforms many. Thanks for your input anyway.


I responded directly to the narrative when I said I had heard both the black glass and clear glass. Not being memorable means they did not cause a lasting impression one way or the other. I would be hard pressed to think of any Tung Sol I disliked.😀

I also stated I had not received one of my round plate black glass back yet. I sent a friend several tubes and she chose to keep a 1578, that was a statement of fact not a comparison. The bgrp is worth more.


----------



## attmci

The NIB TS black glass round plate 6SN7GT are very rare and cost over $200 a couple of years ago. It pairs very well with the 421 or 5998. Strongly suggest your tube lovers to give it a try.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> The NIB TS black glass round plate 6SN7GT are very rare and cost over $200 a couple of years ago. It pairs very well with the 421 or 5998. Strongly suggest your tube lovers to give it a try.


I have several of two types of bgrp and those are fine combinations, we use a matched quad of Tung Sol 5998’s in the four amps I designed for 6SN7 equivalent testing. WE 421’s are less easy to find in matched quads, for me anyway. 😜


----------



## Renexx

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164508236603?hash=item264d747b3b:g:MIMAAOSw5epfrUjS

is this a real GEC 6080? the sticker is different. maybe some kind of military version of it?


----------



## Slade01

Renexx said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164508236603?hash=item264d747b3b:g:MIMAAOSw5epfrUjS
> 
> is this a real GEC 6080? the sticker is different. maybe some kind of military version of it?



Regarding the sticker - it looks like a Marconi Sticker (newer looking version) so yes it looks like a real GEC.  Construction (though harder to see) looks like it is GEC.  The KB/Z code is indicative of the Hammersmith M-OV factory.  I posted an example of the older logo below.  But yeah - GEC/Marconi-Osram Valves - same umbrella.    M.W.T sticker is of the old Marconi Wireless Telegraph company.





For further confirmation, you might want to try asking the 6AS7G Tube Rollers Forum they might have more information as well.


----------



## jonathan c

Caviar for the Linear Tube Audio MZ3…(runs on 12AT7 and 6SN7/12SN7…)


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 21, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Caviar for the Linear Tube Audio MZ3…(runs on 12AT7 and 6SN7/12SN7…)


A great year and NOS! Those tubes are getting more and more expensive, I looked at some this morning and the prices often push $150 or they are slightly used.
Certain models of that tube finished towards the tops in my groups preliminary tube tests after going through eight people, they just have few weaknesses if any. Some prefer more of a booming bass but I have always preferred the tightness and recovery on the Melz. Mids and upper end to die for, Focal Utopias are not held back with those tubes, IMHO.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> A great year and NOS! Those tubes are getting more and more expensive, I looked at some this morning and the prices often push $150 or they are slightly used.
> Certain models of that tube finished towards the tops in my groups preliminary tube tests after going through eight people, they just have few weaknesses if any. Some prefer more of a booming bass but I have always preferred the tightness and recovery on the Melz. Mids and upper end to die for, Focal Utopias are not held back with those tubes, IMHO.


I’m looking forward to putting these in the LTA MZ3. Even with the 1959 vintage of these, I find the transition from “analytical” listening to “involvement” listening _so_ easy…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> I’m looking forward to putting these in the LTA MZ3. Even with the 1959 vintage of these, I find the transition from “analytical” listening to “involvement” listening _so_ easy…


Well no matter what at the end of the day, it is good to know a specific tube might shape sound a bit differently on different music so I suppose that is analytical. I just like to eliminate a lot of bias by using blind testing. If 50 people think a particular tube if wonderful without knowing cost or brand, we might find a $25 tube that is a real sleeper, or a $1,000 tube that is a waste of money. I like the Melz for most all music I listen to on a regular basis and the fact others give it high marks in blind listening makes me think $100 to $150 is not so bad.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> Well no matter what at the end of the day, it is good to know a specific tube might shape sound a bit differently on different music so I suppose that is analytical. I just like to eliminate a lot of bias by using blind testing. If 50 people think a particular tube if wonderful without knowing cost or brand, we might find a $25 tube that is a real sleeper, or a $1,000 tube that is a waste of money. I like the Melz for most all music I listen to on a regular basis and the fact others give it high marks in blind listening makes me think $100 to $150 is not so bad.


You may want to start a new thread on the tube because I saw 50% of your posts here are promoting it. LOL


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 22, 2021)

attmci said:


> You may want to start a new thread on the tube because I saw 50% of your posts here are promoting it. LOL


Everyone has preferences. I can also talk about other 6SN7’s since my group spent over $50k on them and I spent time with all of them. 😀
Oh yeah, these tubes were produced over four decades and there are some variations, there is no "it" as you say. I roll plenty of other tubes, grey glass RCA's, black glass Tung Sols, Ken Rad VT 231's etc.


----------



## Deleeh

He has a point.
Instead of chasing the hare, favourable ones can be just as good.
It is not a 6SN7 tube.
I have made this experience with the popular 6080 Mullard, which is becoming more and more expensive.
And on Ebay I got hold of a 6080 Brimar that was specially re-labelled for Brimar and sold for an apple and an egg.
Later it turned out that the Brimar is a 6080 Sylvania.
I then bought a set of Sylvania and they were identical and compared to the popular Mullard they were subtly seen minimally "worse".
So it didn't go quite as deep as the Mullard but really subtly.
That you forget the minimal loss over time.

There are certainly serious differences between the 6SN7s currently on the market from various well-known manufacturers such as Eh,Tad,JJ Electric etc. and the well-known Ps vane,Shuang,Linlai,Sophia Electric.
As these all meet the norm and standard.

It is up to you to decide whether you want to buy from the Nos market or the well-known ones such as Ps Vane and co.
They certainly go one step further, but there are limits there too.

You should stop when it's best, as they say in our country.
If you like the tube and it suits your taste, you should only look for a replacement.
Then you must/should not care about the rest because it will only end in an unnecessarily costly hare hunt.

Of course, the most expensive ones are not always automatically the best.
If you look at the Nos market, they were just as expensive back then as a standard tube from the internet is today.
Those who drive the price are only the rarities and the people who gild them because of their greed.


----------



## Paladin79

Deleeh said:


> He has a point.
> Instead of chasing the hare, favourable ones can be just as good.
> It is not a 6SN7 tube.
> I have made this experience with the popular 6080 Mullard, which is becoming more and more expensive.
> ...


I also have the distinction of trying out a bunch of GE tubes to try to find some that sucked less than others lol 6SN7’s again. I do like their 5998A’s though.

I have taken the time to listen to 1900 6SN7’s and equivalents. After this blind testing we hope to do 6080 equivalents, I designed an amp around both types of tubes so it is an easy transition. The baseline 6sn7 may well be a quad of Melz if my group agrees.🦊


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I also have the distinction of trying out a bunch of GE tubes to try to find some that sucked less than others lol 6SN7’s again. I do like their 5998A’s though.
> 
> I have taken the time to listen to 1900 6SN7’s and equivalents. After this blind testing we hope to do 6080 equivalents, I designed an amp around both types of tubes so it is an easy transition. The baseline 6sn7 may well be a quad of Melz if my group agrees.🦊


The permutations of Melz: 4 of each year, 4 in year sequence…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> The permutations of Melz: 4 of each year, 4 in year sequence…


You have to listen to a lot of them but 1958 through 1963 are favorites, I owned a bunch of 63’s and held back a matched quad. There are also 5692’s I would consider because of great overall sound.😀


----------



## TLO

rayshader said:


> Hi guys,  I am quite sure this isn't a BGRP, has anyone come across this version from the gt series? Any particular info for this variant?  Thanks​


That black glass is a National Union 6SN7GT. I have 4 pairs, they have either round or spiked rectangular bottom mica. I have one which is a relabeled Raytheon 6SN7GT and still looking for another one to make a pair.


----------



## UntilThen

I have your other Raytheon 6sn7gt. Nice tone.



In my amp.


----------



## TLO (Sep 3, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> I have your other Raytheon 6sn7gt. Nice tone.
> 
> 
> 
> In my amp.


LOL....care to change for a real National Union 6SN7GT?..
Actually, I have 2 pcs to look for; another one is a relabeled Silvertone 6SN7GT
These are all National Union 6SN7GT...yes, very nice tone.


----------



## UntilThen

TLO said:


> LOL....care to change for a real National Union 6SN7GT?..



I'll trade you that for a GEC KT88.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> I have your other Raytheon 6sn7gt. Nice tone.
> 
> 
> 
> In my amp.


Yep...they are nice tubes


----------



## rayshader (Sep 5, 2021)

TLO said:


> That black glass is a National Union 6SN7GT. I have 4 pairs, they have either round or spiked rectangular bottom mica. I have one which is a relabeled Raytheon 6SN7GT and still looking for another one to make a pair.


Hi, thanks for sharing. I have asked the seller who sold me the tube and another seller who claims that it is identical to a variant of the black glass RCA 6sn7gt. The same seller who sold me the TS has the RCA as well. I found some resemblances between the both. RCA on the left, TS on the right.

BTW I have the Raytheon VT231 clear glass T plates which I thoroughly enjoy. I will definitely lookout for the Raytheon black glass version that you have shared. Cheers


----------



## TLO (Sep 5, 2021)

rayshader said:


> Hi, thanks for sharing. I have asked the seller who sold me the tube and another seller who claims that it is identical to a variant of the black glass RCA 6sn7gt. The same seller who sold me the TS has the RCA as well. I found some resemblances between the both. RCA on the left, TS on the right.
> 
> BTW I have the Raytheon VT231 clear glass T plates which I thoroughly enjoy. I will definitely lookout for the Raytheon black glass version that you have shared. Cheers


Please let me know if your sellers have either the Raytheon or Silvertone black glass 6SN7GT, which I have posted, in mint condition with strong and balanced test result. Would love to get another piece each to make pairs. Thanks!!!
Have you tried Raytheon VT231/6SN7GT flat plate yet? They are good too.


----------



## rayshader (Sep 5, 2021)

TLO said:


> Please let me know if your sellers have either the Raytheon or Silvertone black glass 6SN7GT, which I have posted, in mint condition with strong and balanced test result. Would love to get another piece each to make pairs. Thanks!!!
> Have you tried Raytheon VT231/6SN7GT flat plate yet? They are good too.


Sure, I can ask them on your behalf. He too mentioned about the flat plate Raytheon VT231 claiming it to be better than the T plates, however he is out of stock for those for now. BTW I bought another Nos pair of the TS from the same seller as well. I will PM you if I have good news for the black glass Raytheon or Silvertone. Yes the NU has a batch of the similar variants as well as I was told. Thanks for sharing. Cheers


----------



## Laines

Hello im looking far a warm 6sn7 with good bass extention. 

Any recommendations?


----------



## DenverW

Laines said:


> Hello im looking far a warm 6sn7 with good bass extention.
> 
> Any recommendations?


Ken Rad Vt-231


----------



## Laines

DenverW said:


> Ken Rad Vt-231


Thanks for the pointer, just had a quick check, they are quiet pricey. Any alternative?


----------



## Renexx

National Union black glass, very liquid with punchy bass 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/National-Un...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Laines

Renexx said:


> National Union black glass, very liquid with punchy bass
> 
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/National-Un...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Thanks will definitely look into them. (Vielen Dank )


----------



## LoryWiv

Laines said:


> Thanks for the pointer, just had a quick check, they are quiet pricey. Any alternative?


RCA VT-231 are regarded as warm-ish as well.


----------



## FLTWS

LoryWiv said:


> RCA VT-231 are regarded as warm-ish as well.


I've never heard a vintage NOS RCA that wasn't warmish. I think it was their design goal, rich/lush, romantic. Late 40's to mid 50's examples in my inventory.


----------



## jonathan c

FLTWS said:


> I've never heard a vintage NOS RCA that wasn't warmish. I think it was their design goal, rich/lush, romantic. Late 40's to mid 50's examples in my inventory.


That ‘warm’ attribute of RCA 6SN7s extends, in my experience, also to their 5U4G rectifier tubes…


----------



## Galapac

Regarding the Melz and Foton 6SN7 equivalents…has anyone ever scanned these with a Geiger Counter?
I have read that many of these Russian tubes were used in Mig fighter jets and automatic parts for nuclear reactors.
I am wondering if I have any Chernobyl knockoffs that are giving more to my music than I am aware of. 🤪
As far as I know they are not glowing with the power off. 😁


----------



## Ripper2860

If your ears do not look like cauliflowers, then you're fine.  😏


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Regarding the Melz and Foton 6SN7 equivalents…has anyone ever scanned these with a Geiger Counter?
> I have read that many of these Russian tubes were used in Mig fighter jets and automatic parts for nuclear reactors.
> I am wondering if I have any Chernobyl knockoffs that are giving more to my music than I am aware of. 🤪
> As far as I know they are not glowing with the power off. 😁


Start with the tubes that are ‘unobtainium’ - those sound radioactive…


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Regarding the Melz and Foton 6SN7 equivalents…has anyone ever scanned these with a Geiger Counter?
> I have read that many of these Russian tubes were used in Mig fighter jets and automatic parts for nuclear reactors.
> I am wondering if I have any Chernobyl knockoffs that are giving more to my music than I am aware of. 🤪
> As far as I know they are not glowing with the power off. 😁


I doubt there's any nuclear material in a MIG (or perhaps _hope_ there's not), and as far as a nuclear reactor, the half life of U-235 is only 700 million years, so we're getting closer every day to being safe.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I doubt there's any nuclear material in a MIG (or perhaps _hope_ there's not), and as far as a nuclear reactor, the half life of U-235 is only 700 million years, so we're getting closer every day to being safe.


😳 …think of this…_if_ there is U-235 in a GE tube (on filaments?…), that tube has a half-life of….(the horror of it all!)


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Galapac said:


> Regarding the Melz and Foton 6SN7 equivalents…has anyone ever scanned these with a Geiger Counter?



Yes.


----------



## tafens

Galapac said:


> Regarding the Melz and Foton 6SN7 equivalents…has anyone ever scanned these with a Geiger Counter?





tubebuyer2020 said:


> Yes.



And? 
Of course, it can be argued that some of them are lethal anyway, radiation or not


----------



## tubebuyer2020

tafens said:


> And?



They were fine. Though that tells nothing about any other batches - especially the used ones.
I did wonder whether customs would check everything incoming for radioactivity just in case? Probably not.


----------



## JTbbb

tubebuyer2020 said:


> They were fine. Though that tells nothing about any other batches - especially the used ones.
> I did wonder whether customs would check everything incoming for radioactivity just in case? Probably not.


They most certainly would if it meant they could collect more duty from you 😀.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

JTbbb said:


> They most certainly would if it meant they could collect more duty from you 😀.



Tell me about it... "Handling fee"? I did not ask you to handle my stuff to begin with!


----------



## NicRhodes

Postal services do check for radioactivity, I have heard of several cases of microscope equipment (old) failing. This turns out to be the coating material on the optics. The postal service will just not deal with it.


----------



## Ripper2860

Thankfully, radioactivity did not stop USPS from delivering my vintage Pentax and Carl Zeiss radioactive coating lenses.


----------



## NicRhodes

U contamination in the Barium coating I think


----------



## Galapac

I hear Barium is ok unless you are inclined to eat or snort it...my Focals haven't changed my ears to Cauliflower yet...


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> I hear Barium is ok unless you are inclined to eat or snort it...my Focals haven't changed my ears to Cauliflower yet...


Did you hear that, @Ripper2860 ?  Quit licking those lenses....for your own good.


----------



## Galapac

Well repaired my first Melz today and success!
Thanks to @Paladin79 as a guide with my own tweaks I was able to get a nasty hum out of a 1956 Melz that started just after I started using it.
Whole process took about a half hour.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Galapac said:


> Well repaired my first Melz today and success!
> Thanks to @Paladin79 as a guide with my own tweaks I was able to get a nasty hum out of a 1956 Melz that started just after I started using it.
> Whole process took about a half hour.



What did the repair entail?


----------



## Galapac

CaptainFantastic said:


> What did the repair entail?


You can check back in this thread but here is one post of the detail:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-15981989


----------



## dakchi

Hi,
I would like to replace my stock 6SN7 tubes with others. It will be difficult for me to go though 337 pages. What tubes do you recommend? I like warm holographic sound


----------



## Deceneu808

I feel like every 40s/50s tubes are warmish to some extent. What is your budget ? 
My go to warm tube are GEC/mwt/Marconi B65 6SN7GT


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Well repaired my first Melz today and success!
> Thanks to @Paladin79 as a guide with my own tweaks I was able to get a nasty hum out of a 1956 Melz that started just after I started using it.
> Whole process took about a half hour.


Very nice solder work!  Eventually Mr. Cowen will be able to do as well, as he practices on Fotons.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> You can check back in this thread but here is one post of the detail:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-15981989


Thanks for helping others, I am working some crazy hours right now and have less time for Head Fi right now.


----------



## Slade01 (Sep 22, 2021)

dakchi said:


> Hi,
> I would like to replace my stock 6SN7 tubes with others. It will be difficult for me to go though 337 pages. What tubes do you recommend? I like warm holographic sound



Being that impressions are subjective - i'd still try to do the legwork on what is recommended.  That being said - RCA Gray Glass VT-231 is what I would still recommend as a starting point.   The higher end of that is the RCA/GE 5692 red base.  Also the Brimar 6SN7GT.

If you have the $$$$ @Deceneu808 recommendations are indeed top shelf,  crème de la crème tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Well repaired my first Melz today and success!
> Thanks to @Paladin79 as a guide with my own tweaks I was able to get a nasty hum out of a 1956 Melz that started just after I started using it.
> Whole process took about a half hour.


Hey!  Nice job!  Looks better than mine, but I wasn't properly trained because @Paladin79 fired me as a student.


----------



## cgb3

Ripper2860 said:


> Thankfully, radioactivity did not stop USPS from delivering my vintage Pentax and Carl Zeiss radioactive coating lenses.


I'm a longtime photo geek.

Radioactive coatings on lenses are of little concern. https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Radioactive_lenses

I have a number of S. Takumar, and others that contain a radioactive coating. No concern.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hey!  Nice job!  Looks better than mine, but I wasn't properly trained because @Paladin79 fired me as a student.


One must have standards.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> One must have standards.😜


If grading “on the curve”, the bcowen tail of the distribution was too extreme…


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 23, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> If grading “on the curve”, the bcowen tail of the distribution was too extreme…


I believe @bcowen was able to do four years of college in only seven years so I only had so much time in my life to devote to his learning pin soldering.


----------



## NicRhodes

There are no safety issues at all wrt to radioactivity on the lenses, the issue is people buy them and then don't receive them from the courier because it has failed a check. In fact they are often not even returned to the sender and he is out of pocket on this deal and the purchaser also does not receive an item. A microscope dealer friend now does not send certain types of lenses abroad because of this.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Hey!  Nice job!  Looks better than mine, but I wasn't properly trained because @Paladin79 fired me as a student.


I heard that you flunked out.


----------



## TLO

dakchi said:


> Hi,
> I would like to replace my stock 6SN7 tubes with others. It will be difficult for me to go though 337 pages. What tubes do you recommend? I like warm holographic sound



1. KEN RAD VT-231 / 6SN7 GT (black glass)
2. RCA VT-231 / 6SN7 GT (smoke glass)
3. National Union 6SN7 GT (black glass)
4. RAYTHEON VT-231 / 6SN7 GT (flat plate NOT T-plate)
5. CBS-HYTRON 5692 (brown base)
6. SYLVANIA 6SN7W (short glass / tall glass)

These are all warm and holographic, but each of them has their own sonic character. Good luck!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe @bcowen was able to do four years of college in only seven years so I only had so much time in my life to devote to his learning pin soldering.


Yeah, well I was working 70 hours a week, volunteering at the Salvation Army, tutoring kids in the afternoons, and walking 17 miles uphill to class (both ways) barefoot in the snow.  Well, part of that anyway.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> I heard that you flunked out.


Flunked is such a subjective term.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah, well I was working 70 hours a week, volunteering at the Salvation Army, tutoring kids in the afternoons, and walking 17 miles uphill to class (both ways) barefoot in the snow.  Well, part of that anyway.


We heard this before…you were lugging Until Then’s golf bag…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Flunked is such a subjective term.


Indeed! Whatever subject you took, you flunked…A 👎….F 👍….


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> Yeah, well I was working 70 hours a week, volunteering at the Salvation Army, tutoring kids in the afternoons, and walking 17 miles uphill to class (both ways) barefoot in the snow.  Well, part of that anyway.


Nice to hear you reminiscing so fondly about your school days. I hear the 8th grade was the best 3 years of your life!

(That's a Jeff Foxworthy line for those of you old enough to remember his comedy).


----------



## jonathan c (Sep 23, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I believe @bcowen was able to do four years of college in only seven years so I only had so much time in my life to devote to his learning pin soldering.


For bcowen, like Blutarsky, seven years of college down the tube (pins)…


----------



## Renexx (Sep 24, 2021)

My top 6sn7 with warm pleasing  sound would be.

Mullard Ecc32
Brimar 6sn7gt black black 
RCA vt-231
Raytheon VT-231 flat plates


----------



## JTbbb

Renexx said:


> My top 6sn7 with warm pleasing  sound would be.
> 
> Mullard Ecc32
> Brimar 6sn7gt black black
> ...


Before someone else mentions it Renexx. Ecc32’s not quite 6sn7’s but do work very well in our Euforia’s, even recommended by the manufacturer.


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> Before someone else mentions it Renexx. Ecc32’s not quite 6sn7’s but do work very well in our Euforia’s, even recommended by the manufacturer.


..but then they dont really work quite well with my wallet...lmao.


----------



## Paladin79

https://mullard.org/collections/audio-valve-ecc32-cv181-cv1988-13d2-b65-6sn7gt-twin-triode

Some pretty good info.

I have heard most all 6sn7 equivalents in existence and the ecc32 is right up there. Friends and I narrowed a field of over 1500 tubes down to 52 and it was a costly venture for some of us. We rate tubes on 25 criteria so it is never easy for me to define a tube by a couple factors. Also when you have a large group giving similar responses about specific tubes, it is difficult to call the process subjective.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> https://mullard.org/collections/audio-valve-ecc32-cv181-cv1988-13d2-b65-6sn7gt-twin-triode
> 
> Some pretty good info.
> 
> I have heard most all 6sn7 equivalents in existence and the ecc32 is right up there. Friends and I narrowed a field of over 1500 tubes down to 52 and it was a costly venture for some of us. We rate tubes on 25 criteria so it is never easy for me to define a tube by a couple factors. Also when you have a large group giving similar responses about specific tubes, it is difficult to call the process subjective.


Morbid curiosity makes me ask… What's the total cost (ballpark) of those 52 tubes?


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 24, 2021)

Mr Trev said:


> Morbid curiosity makes me ask… What's the total cost (ballpark) of those 52 tubes?


Overall we are pushing $50k but that group may be $15k or so. One or two tubes are one of a kind and in a sense, priceless. A friends grandfather was an engineer at RCA and the tubes never went into production. Naturally I have heard them but I was extremely nervous about them being in my possession. Many of the top tubes will be given away to those who contributed the most towards our goal, but not those, they stay in the family.


----------



## Galapac

I found Bill’s stash…


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I found Bill’s stash…


What a great photo!!!


----------



## tubebuyer2020

@Paladin79 what is your opinion on Soviet paper-in-oil caps?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Not sure which thread to post in, but I wanted to say this: how incredibly lucky are we? I am sitting here listening to my favorite music with a high-performing Chord DAC, leading to a customized Bottlehead Crack (thanks again Tom!) using an amazing 6080 tube and equally amazing 6SN7, all of this leading to a ZMF Verite Open and I can't imagine the music sounding any better from a feelings perspective.

Enjoy!


----------



## Paladin79

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @Paladin79 what is your opinion on Soviet paper-in-oil caps?


I have not used them for a while but I have had good luck with some types. Whenever possible you want to look for Russian military surplus since they got some of the best parts.


----------



## Paladin79

CaptainFantastic said:


> Not sure which thread to post in, but I wanted to say this: how incredibly lucky are we? I am sitting here listening to my favorite music with a high-performing Chord DAC, leading to a customized Bottlehead Crack (thanks again Tom!) using an amazing 6080 tube and equally amazing 6SN7, all of this leading to a ZMF Verite Open and I can't imagine the music sounding any better from a feelings perspective.
> 
> Enjoy!


The Crack can be a pretty good amp once you upgrade some parts.   I have tried the Verite open and they are certainly something I would own if I did not have Focal Utopias.  I design amps to match my own preferences and it is a glorious feeling to know you are listening to something you created or that you upgraded and modified.

 Chord certainly rated high in a DAC test friends and I did. Our favorite overall was the Aqua La Voce S3 but it is nearly twice the price of some Chords as I recall.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> I found Bill’s stash…


That's the vacuum chamber necessary to assure all GE's really suck.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> That's the vacuum chamber necessary to assure all GE's really suck.


Nice! The blue background even fits your favorite color. 🤣
Cool design of a water tower, right down to the support pins…


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Nice! The blue background even fits your favorite color. 🤣
> Cool design of a water tower, right down to the support pins…




As the old bumper sticker stated: "If God is not a Tarheel, why is the sky Carolina blue?"


----------



## TLO

Galapac said:


> I found Bill’s stash…


Is that a 6 or 7 pins? Do you have a data sheet for that?


----------



## FLTWS

How about an adapter so it can be used in a variety of applications.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> How about an adapter so it can be used in a variety of applications.


LOL!  I'd bet @Deyan could make one, but the shipping cost might be prohibitive...


----------



## TLO

Galapac said:


> I found Bill’s stash…


Anyway, I think it has lost its vacuum....lol


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> I found Bill’s stash…


Imagine, hiding all those Soviet Fotons in America’s heartland…


----------



## Renexx (Sep 29, 2021)

I just bought a used  pair of claimed "real Sylvania 6sn7 chrome tops made in 1940s" in a  music store here in Germany.




 
This was the advertised picture.
He had a bulk of NIB but these were sold out so I did go for a used pair. But since they say GTB on top of the tube I'm in doubt it's the real deal.

They have Angeled T plates, came with removed print in mint condition.
They sound very warm...much warmer than a pair of other Sylvania GTBs that I have. But that's just a first impression.

I never found a picture of real Sylvania chrome doms online. Do you guys know if this is the real deal or did I get scammed? Do you guys have pictures of real Sylvania chrome domes and what I have to look out for ?

Here pictures of the tubes I received.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 29, 2021)

Nice snag on those tubes.  GTBs were introduced in 1954, I believe.  They definitely did not exist in the '40s.  I do not recall ever seeing angled t-plates on 40's vintage Sylvanias, either.  These are also not the type and years referred to as "chrome domes" by collectors.  Chrome domes were early 50s GTAs and the chrome flashing extended farther down covering the majority of the glass envelope.  These are nice tubes none-the-less, but are not 40's vintage or those typically referred to as Chrome Domes.


----------



## Renexx (Sep 29, 2021)

Well it was not my intention to buy a Sylvania GTB. I thought there is something special about these chrome tops and that seller seemed to be a serious guy.

Are these chrome domes?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sylvania-6s...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
Or 
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Zwei-NEU-Sy...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 29, 2021)

I'm sorry you did not get what you expected.  The two links both look like the real-deal 'Chrome Dome' GTAs to me.  The right level of flashing.  The right construction.  The right year codes. The Zenith are actually mfg by Sylvania and there are even other mfgs that have rebranded them (Motorola, etc.).  The trick is to look for the construction and the mfg code of 312.  😉

Bullz is a well known and reputable reseller and he describes his accurately.  The other vendor says they have Bad Boy plates, which is not entirely accurate, but it seems many call anything with 3-hole plates Bad Boys.  🙄

BTW - legit Chrome Domes are very nice sounding tubes, IMHO.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm sorry you did not get what you expected.  The two links both look like the real-deal 'Chrome Dome' GTAs to me.  The right level if flashing.  The right construction.  The right year codes. The Zenith are actually mfg by Sylvania and there are even other mfgs that have rebranded them (Motorola, etc.).  The trick is to look for the construction and the mfg code of 312.  😉
> 
> Bullz is a well known and reputable reseller and he describes his accurately.  The other vendor says they have Bad Boy plates, which is not entirely accurate, but it seems many call anything with 3-hole plates Bad Boys.  🙄
> 
> BTW - legit Chrome Domes are very nice sounding tubes, IMHO.


I have purchased a number of 6SN7 type tubes from Bullz and heartily recommend him for the quality of the tubes and of his communication.


----------



## Renexx

I bought from both of them before ...both are nice guys. 

I guess the chrome domes need to have parallel T plates like a sylvania 6sn7w?

The mfg code is the production code I guess ? What does 312 mean ? 

The tubes in the second link show a different code.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 29, 2021)

312 is Sylvania's MFG code.  If you see a tube with 312 on the base, it's mfg by Sylvania and rebranded.  Google 'vacuum tube EIA codes' and you'll find reference docs detailing mfg codes for most mfgs.

Most MFGs don't use the mfg code on their mfged and labeled tubes.  The 339 in the Sylvania branded tube is the date if mfg - 39th week of 1953.  The Zenith has 2 sets of codes - 312 denoting it is made by Sylvania and then the date code 326 - 26th week of 1953.

Yes. Chrome Dome plate  construction is similar to the W's but W's have a copper support rod that runs top to bottom between the plates.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> 312 is Sylvania's MFG code.  If you see a tube with 312 on the base, it's mfg by Sylvania and rebranded.  Google 'vacuum tube EIA codes' and you'll find reference docs detailing mfg codes for most mfgs.
> 
> Yes.  *Plate Chrome Dome stev construction is like the W's but W's have a copper support rod the run top to bottom between the plates.*


Um, do you have an English translation for that?


----------



## Ripper2860

I corrected before you posted.  I set the trap and you came galloping right in.  😀


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I corrected before you posted.  I set the trap and you came galloping right in.  😀


Trapper2860…🪤…


----------



## TLO (Sep 30, 2021)

Just wanted to let you guys know. They are all not the real Chrome Dome. The pair OP bought is just Sylvania 6SN7GTB, very common. The real Chrome Dome basically has the flash getter cover the whole glass envelope, you cant really see the interior. Link: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/  Adhoc has the description here and I have seen it myself. BTW, I have the followings for reference:

SYL VT-231/6SN7 GT
SYL 6SN7 GTA
SYL 6SN7 GTB
SYL 6SN7 W
SYL 6SN7 WGT

_A note on Sylvania Chrome Domes: _
_The “Chrome Dome” moniker was first applied to particular early 1950s vintage Sylvania 6SN7GTs by tube enthusiasts. The name came about in response to the tube’s appearance – it had a beautifully shiny top getter flashing that nearly reached the bottom of the tube, obscuring almost all of the internal construction from view._

_These particular 6SN7GTs are extremely rare, and as time passed, people began applying the “Chrome Dome” moniker to many other Sylvania tubes with top getter flashing._

_The following Sylvania tubes are often (incorrectly) called ‘Chrome Domes’:_
_6SN7GTA_
_6SN7W_
_6SN7A_
_6SN7WGT_
_6SN7WGTA_

Lastly, here is a good example of a real Chrome Dome but a pair of 6SL7GT (note: it is GT, not GTA or GTB)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2653268335...brand=SYLVANIA&_trksid=p2334524.c100667.m2042


----------



## Renexx (Sep 30, 2021)

Thank you for the enlightenment!

How about this pair ? 
Opposing T-plates but the flashing is not covering the glass completely but looks a little different...maybe only due to the lighting in the picture.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sylvania-6s...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
The seller said it's the real ones 🤪


----------



## TLO (Sep 30, 2021)

Renexx said:


> Thank you for the enlightenment!
> 
> How about this pair ?
> Opposing T-plates but the flashing is not covering the glass completely but looks a little different...maybe only due to the lighting in the picture.
> ...


Ok, if my memory serves me right, these are the Sylvania GT series:

6SN7 GT - 4 versions
1. T- plate, lower flash getter, full base (VT-231)
2. Same as above but 3 holes on plate and spiked upp mica (6SN7 GT - Bad Boy)
3. Flat plate, lower flash getter, full base
4. T- plate, flash getter covered almost whole of short glass, full base (chrome dome)
6SN7 GTA - 3 versions
1. T- plate, chrome top, short glass, full base
2. Angled T- plate, chrome top, short glass, full base
3. Angled T- plate, chrome top, tall glass, low base (Tall Boy)
6SN7 GTB - ? version
1. T-plate, chrome top, short glass, low base
2. Angled T-plate, chrome top, short glass, low base

Generally, low base is GTB but I have seen GTA using low base, I guess they are trying to use up the balance of short glass marked with GTA on top when transiting from GTA to GTB. Chrome Dome is GT.


----------



## Renexx

I have found another pair which has clearly visible GT print on top of the tube and also a short base.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/6sn7-GT-Syl...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

I think they are the same like the ones I mentioned in the forum before 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/SYLVANIA-6S...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

They can't be  the real ones because of the short base ?


----------



## TLO (Sep 30, 2021)

Renexx said:


> I have found another pair which has clearly visible GT print on top of the tube and also a short base.
> 
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/6sn7-GT-Syl...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> ...


Sylvania ECG is very much later, like in the 70s if I am not wrong, so yes, they are not Chrome Dome, which is early 50s. Short base on Sylvania GTB only started to appear in around 1954 or 1955.

Btw, why must you look for SYL Chrome Dome? If you really must, another option is SYL 6SN7W. They are made in the same period or earlier. There are 3 version.
1. T-plate, chrome top, supporting pole, short glass, full base
2. T-plate, chrome top, supporting pole, tall glass, full base
3. T-plate, chrome top, supporting pole, tall glass, metal base

Careful with the metal base, they are said to go microphonic easily.


----------



## Renexx (Sep 30, 2021)

I have a nice pair of  Sylvania 6sn7A metal base already. The chrome dome is not different sound wise compared to The metal base ?


----------



## TLO

Renexx said:


> I have found another pair which has clearly visible GT print on top of the tube and also a short base.
> 
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/6sn7-GT-Syl...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> ...


BTW, all of these Chrome Dome and 6SN7Ws are going for high price (~USD300-500 / pair), dont expect under USD100 / pair like the GTA or GTB. There are many other great 6SN7 tubes to go for that are priced more reasonable.


----------



## TLO (Sep 30, 2021)

Renexx said:


> I have a nice pair of  Sylvania 6sn7A metal base already. The chrome dome is nothing special sound wise compared to The metal base ?


Cant say, have not tried 6SN7W / 6SN7A metal base or chrome dome. At those prices they are going for, I wont bother. The only reason I bought a pair of 6SN7W is it is priced at a reasonable price and brand new in original military boxes.


----------



## Renexx

TLO said:


> BTW, all of these Chrome Dome and 6SN7Ws are going for high price (~USD300-500 / pair), dont expect under USD100 / pair like the GTA or GTB. There are many other great 6SN7 tubes to go for that are priced more reasonable.


 Well my bank account hates this hobby. I should have started it 10years ago since prices were super low. 
The Sylvania metal base is really a nice tube. Neutral sounding holy grail for my Feliks Euphoria amp.


----------



## Galapac

For you chrome dome hunters…here is the real deal…if you got the $$$.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334165856451?hash=item4dcdd650c3:g:4Y0AAOSwB0lhTLog


----------



## Renexx

Galapac said:


> For you chrome dome hunters…here is the real deal…if you got the $$$.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/334165856451?hash=item4dcdd650c3:g:4Y0AAOSwB0lhTLog


Mine 💸


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> Mine 💸


7A4's are also worth a try.  They are half of a 6SN7 (ie: single triode) with a loctal base so you'll need 2 tubes and an adapter.  But prices are good and so is the sound.  Notice any similarities with the chrome dome 6SN7?    

Just an example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1541104072...zDQ4K3skcRTMcNaas4i0|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2334524


----------



## Ranger Ron (Oct 6, 2021)

Which of these two is considered the real ‘chrome dome’ ? I always thought the one on the right was. Both labeled 6sn7 GT. The one on right is 40’s the left is 52. 2 hole plate vs 3 hole plate. Obviously different micas. The GTA with opposing plates doesn’t sound as good as either one of these. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## attmci

Who is advertising Syl chrom some here? Not impressed. LOL.
The metal base A/W is good.


----------



## Ranger Ron

attmci said:


> Who is advertising Syl chrom some here? Not impressed. LOL.
> The metal base A/W is good.


All of the 40’s ‘race track’ mica, top getter Sylvania’s are good, IMO.


----------



## TLO

Ranger Ron said:


> All of the 40’s ‘race track’ mica, top getter Sylvania’s are good, IMO.


Couldnt agree more, tried GTA and GTB for cheap; got them from a batch auction. Not really impressed, dry and "electronic" sounding. I wont waste time on them.


----------



## Ranger Ron

TLO said:


> Couldnt agree more, tried GTA and GTB for cheap; got them from a batch auction. Not really impressed, dry and "electronic" sounding. I wont waste time on them.
> 
> 
> TLO said:
> ...


----------



## Renexx (Oct 17, 2021)

Galapac said:


> For you chrome dome hunters…here is the real deal…if you got the $$$.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/334165856451?hash=item4dcdd650c3:g:4Y0AAOSwB0lhTLog





attmci said:


> Who is advertising Syl chrom some here? Not impressed. LOL.
> The metal base A/W is good.


I got my pair of Sylvania 1953 chrome dome.
My Feliks Euphoria amp sounds like on steroids now.

Very airy highs and lush mid presentation resulting in an awesome detail retrieval.
Bass is very tight. Good soundstage.
One of the best tubes in my  6sn7 collection.

I think these sound like the description of  sylvania vt-231. Did anyone compare both tubes?


----------



## attmci

Renexx said:


> I got my pair of Sylvania 1953 chrome dome.
> My Feliks Euphoria amp sounds like on steroids now.
> 
> Very airy highs and lush mid presentation resulting in an awesome detail retrieval.
> ...


Glad you like them.

What're the other 6SN7GT in your collection? JC


----------



## Renexx

Well I would say most of the good ones.
 ..maybe I have problems 💡

Brimar 6sn7gt black glass
Sylvania 6sn7A metal base
Melz 6n8s metal base
VT-231 except Sylvania and hytron 
Sylvania 52' badboys 
NU black and grey glass
RCA 5692
Toshiba GTB




Not on the picture but in my inventory:
Sylvania 53' Chrome domes 
Mullard Ecc32
Sylvania 5692
Fivre 6sn7gt
NU 6f8g (love these)

I'm missing  Sylvania vt-231 and B65...but B65 are ridiculous expensive.


----------



## tafens

Renexx said:


> I'm missing Sylvania vt-231 and B65...but B65 are ridiculous expensive.


Speaking of ridiculously expensive, I see you’re also missing the much coveted Standard Radiofabrik 33S30


----------



## Renexx

Not willing to pay 1000$  or more per tube. I did spend too much on tubes already.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Renexx said:


> Well I would say most of the good ones.
> ..maybe I have problems 💡
> 
> Brimar 6sn7gt black glass
> ...



That is one heck of a collection. And all the tubes seem to be in such good shape too. I'll bet a ZMF cleaning cloth never had it so good before.


----------



## Renexx

CaptainFantastic said:


> That is one heck of a collection. And all the tubes seem to be in such good shape too. I'll bet a ZMF cleaning cloth never had it so good before.


You have got sharp eyes my friend 😃


----------



## whirlwind

Renexx said:


> Well I would say most of the good ones.
> ..maybe I have problems 💡
> 
> Brimar 6sn7gt black glass
> ...


Nice tubes


----------



## Ranger Ron

Renexx said:


> Well I would say most of the good ones.
> ..maybe I have problems 💡
> 
> Brimar 6sn7gt black glass
> ...


The kind of problems you want to have.


----------



## JTbbb

Ranger Ron said:


> The kind of problems you want to have.


Better than booze and fags! Oops, I mean cigarette’s to our American friends!


----------



## Deceneu808

JTbbb said:


> Better than booze and fags! Oops, I mean cigarette’s to our American friends!


You can quit booze and cigarettes but you can't quit tubes one you get a taste


----------



## Renexx

The real problem arises when you have a complete tube collection for your amp and another interesting tube amp catches your eye and the spiral starts again 💸


----------



## TLO

Renexx said:


> The real problem arises when you have a complete tube collection for your amp and another interesting tube amp catches your eye and the spiral starts again 💸


It is OK...  as long as it uses 6SN7.


----------



## Renexx

TLO said:


> It is OK...  as long as it uses 6SN7.


That's the problem...it's not 😅
It's just a future dream. 

My Feliks Euphoria pairs well with my ZMFs and as long as I don't buy a new Headphone, there is no need for a new amp. 
This hobby never stops.


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> Well I would say most of the good ones.
> .*.maybe I have problems *💡


That's not a problem.  It's a feature.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> That's not a problem.  It's a feature.


Precisely, what is good about a hobby if there is no endless seduction...LOL


----------



## Renexx (Oct 19, 2021)

I did not expect the urge to collect hit that hard with light bulbs.


----------



## nwres

Renexx said:


> I did not expect the urge to collect hit that hard with light bulbs.





bcowen said:


> Be interested in your impressions once you get them, especially compared to the CV181-T (I don't have any of the other tubes you noted).


Anyone compare the Linlai Elite 6sn7 to the Melz?


----------



## highstream (Oct 23, 2021)

I’m interested in the answer to nwres’ question too, as I found the Melz 1578 very detailed and clear but lacking any warmth, thus not to my taste. I’m dealing with an unexpected lack of modest warmth problem, which has arisen after changing the power cords to my ATC powered floorstanders from WyWires Platinums to Diamonds (the latter normally have a bit of warmth). So far getting it back has required ditching the truly outstanding Treasure Globe 6SN7’s in favor of WWII Sylvania 6F8G’s in my Suptatek preamp. The latter are very fine tubes, among the few best of the old 6SN7’s to my ears, but not in the T-Globe’s league. So I’m keeping my eyes open for other options, if it comes to it, but there haven’t been many reports yet about the Linlai.


----------



## jonathan c

A quick note to say that in the Linear Tube Audio MZ3 the coupling of Melz 6N8S (1963 vintage) and RFT ECC81 (12AT7) pairs is _divine_! Clarity, dynamics, evenness of tone, sculpted soundstage, vocals to perish for: all there…🎼😄…


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Renexx said:


> The real problem arises when you have a complete tube collection for your amp and another interesting tube amp catches your eye and the spiral starts again 💸



Don't get into electric guitars then, those 12AX7 prices - damn!


----------



## jonathan c

Renexx said:


> The real problem arises when you have a complete tube collection for your amp and another interesting tube amp catches your eye and the spiral starts again 💸


….cool hand luke…what we have here is a failure to communicate: you _never _have a complete tube collection - even for _one_ amp!


----------



## highstream (Nov 4, 2021)

highstream said:


> I’m interested in the answer to nwres’ question too, as I found the Melz 1578 very detailed and clear but lacking any warmth, thus not to my taste. I’m dealing with an unexpected lack of modest warmth problem, which has arisen after changing the power cords to my ATC powered floorstanders from WyWires Platinums to Diamonds (the latter normally have a bit of warmth). So far getting it back has required ditching the truly outstanding Treasure Globe 6SN7’s in favor of WWII Sylvania 6F8G’s in my Suptatek preamp. The latter are very fine tubes, among the few best of the old 6SN7’s to my ears, but not in the T-Globe’s league. So I’m keeping my eyes open for other options, if it comes to it, but there haven’t been many reports yet about the Linlai.



To follow up, the underlying construction of my condo's living room leaves something to be desired, so it turned out that by replacing the very good AV Roomservice EVPs with the even better GAIA II's largely solved the problem I mentioned, i.e., the pair of WW Diamonds power cords running to ATC SCM40A's (active/powered) causing the loss of system warmth. Now it's like they are straddle the border of warm/clean, depending on the recording. The Treasure Globes are back in and I'm burning in another Sophia 274B to see how it tunes the system compared to the USAF 596 currently in my Supratek (6SN7) preamp.

@Renexx -- Now two years into a tube dac and preamp, I've thought a lot about the "spiral" problem and have decided it's not worth it. I'll upgrade my Lampi dac if and when an upgrade is available, and I'll eventually go up to the Supratek's best 6SN7 model, but I just don't want to start over from scratch rolling a different configuration of tubes. I'd rather get the best out of the tube gear I've got and fine tune around it, i.e., listen to the music (talking of fine tuning, the High Fidelity NPS-1260 contact enhancer is the real deal -- see the Enjoy the Music review and the Audiogon thread).


----------



## UMN

Does anyone know why some Sylvania VT-231 have green lettering and some have white lettering? Thanks.


----------



## Renexx

I saw some 1945s with green lettering and the first post of this threat says green lettering was common in the 50s.

green lettering seems more rare. But that doesn't affect internal construction or sound.


----------



## Galapac (Nov 5, 2021)

Found this searching back in this thread...
*Sylvania VT-231  [PHOTO HERE]*
_[black base, white (1940s) or green (1950s - very rare) labels, bottom getter (visible), black T-plates, tall bottles, rectangular top and bottom micas]_

Read this very informative post, first post in this thread, should be required reading for all interested in 6SN7 and their variants._
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/_


----------



## JTbbb

UMN said:


> Does anyone know why some Sylvania VT-231 have green lettering and some have white lettering? Thanks.


I was told by a long term member here that the white lettering was the rarer.


----------



## JTbbb

UMN said:


> Does anyone know why some Sylvania VT-231 have green lettering and some have white lettering? Thanks.


Found it.

Sorry for the delay, tubes look good. Looks like 1950's, 2 hole black T plates, with mica spacers, flashing third of the way up the tube. Mica is not turned down, so probably not a "bad"boy, but the white lettering is not as common as the green lettering. THe JAN just indicates a military number. I have a pair of these as well. Work well,

These were the tubes.


----------



## JTbbb

I’ve been told since they are 1940’s

So which they really are I don’t know. I will post more pictures if someone out there wants to have a go at dating them?


----------



## UMN

Interesting. I don't know the significance of this small sample size, but if you take a quick look on eBay, currently the white letter pairs of Sylvania VT-231 for sale far outnumber the green lettered pairs.


----------



## u2u2

JTbbb said:


> I’ve been told since they are 1940’s
> 
> So which they really are I don’t know. I will post more pictures if someone out there wants to have a go at dating them?


Look like they are the mates to what resides in my WA22 at present. 1944 if I understand the system correctly. Very nice performing tubes, among my favourites. Enjoy.


----------



## JTbbb

u2u2 said:


> Look like they are the mates to what resides in my WA22 at present. 1944 if I understand the system correctly. Very nice performing tubes, among my favourites. Enjoy.


Yes 1944 is the date I was given. And yes nice sound.


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> Found it.
> 
> Sorry for the delay, tubes look good. Looks like 1950's, 2 hole black T plates, with mica spacers, flashing third of the way up the tube. Mica is not turned down, so probably not a "bad"boy, but the white lettering is not as common as the green lettering. THe JAN just indicates a military number. I have a pair of these as well. Work well,
> 
> These were the tubes.


Yes, they are 1940s. A4 = Jan 1944, B4 = Feb 1944. Just sold a pair of Jan 1944, mint condition, to someone today...


----------



## Tension250 (Nov 8, 2021)

Hi guys,
I got some Sylvania 6sn7GT vt231 1945 for my Freya+ these days. I am not sure what I have received.  Can someone help to take a look? I spent about 400 Dollars on them. - matched, low noise balanced. There are so many versions of 6sn7GT Sylvania........how can I know these are from 1945?


----------



## JTbbb

Tension250 said:


> Hi guys,
> I got some Sylvania 6sn7GT vt231 1945 for my Freya+ these days. I am not sure what I have received.  Can someone help to take a look? I spent about 400 Dollars on them. - matched, low noise balanced. There are so many versions of 6sn7GT Sylvania........how can I know these are from 1945?


They look cosha to me. More pics would help though.


----------



## u2u2

Tension250 said:


> Hi guys,
> I got some Sylvania 6sn7GT vt231 1945 for my Freya+ these days. I am not sure what I have received.  Can someone help to take a look? I spent about 400 Dollars on them. - matched, low noise balanced. There are so many versions of 6sn7GT Sylvania........how can I know these are from 1945?


If you go back a few posts you will see some info on dating. These are looking like 1942 unless posting more photos points elsewhere. Nice looking tubes.


----------



## Renexx (Nov 8, 2021)

Tension250 said:


> Hi guys,
> I got some Sylvania 6sn7GT vt231 1945 for my Freya+ these days. I am not sure what I have received.  Can someone help to take a look? I spent about 400 Dollars on them. - matched, low noise balanced. There are so many versions of 6sn7GT Sylvania........how can I know these are from 1945?



Those V shaped cutouts on the top mica started in early to mid 44s.

You have a letter and a number etched on the glass or sometimes printed on the base.
Which indicated the week and the year.
I can't read those on your picture.

The picture of the mica indicates mid 44 or later for your tube because of v-shaped cutouts.

I happen to get my pair of Sylvania vt-231 today and I made some pictures.

You can see one tube has C4 which is first weeks of February  44 and on the picture of the top you can see the 43/early 44 mica construction without  v-shaped cutouts.






It's time to listen to those badboys tonight  🤘🎧


----------



## Renexx

They glow very nicely 😁

Sound might be just the same like my Sylvania 1953 chrome domes .

Very airy highs, lush midrange, tight low end (Bendix 6080s + Vérité closed  give them low end grunt). 
Great soundstage and resolution.
 Really makes female vocals shine!


----------



## HTSkywalker

Tension250 said:


> Hi guys,
> I got some Sylvania 6sn7GT vt231 1945 for my Freya+ these days. I am not sure what I have received.  Can someone help to take a look? I spent about 400 Dollars on them. - matched, low noise balanced. There are so many versions of 6sn7GT Sylvania........how can I know these are from 1945?


One thing for sure, OVERPRICED


----------



## TLO (Nov 10, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> One thing for sure, OVERPRICED


Actually I feel bad for the OP already but didnt want to pour cold water on him since he has already bought them. For USD 400, I would advise him to get SYL 6SN7W instead. Though they are all overpriced but 6SN7W has better value for the SQ you are getting. Anyway, OP is from Europe and I guess he bought them locally, US tubes sell for more in Europe.


----------



## JTbbb

I have acquired a CRC-JAN-6SN7-GT-VT231 Grey Glass tube. I would like to put it into my Euforia AE to check that all is well. At the present time I don’t have another to put with it. However I do have a Tung Sol Jan-CTL-6SN7GT VT-231 Black Glass Oval Mica. Any thoughts as to why I cannot put these two together, so I can check the Grey Glass? I’m expecting another two Grey Glass tubes in about 3 weeks. Should I wait?


----------



## FLTWS

JTbbb said:


> I have acquired a CRC-JAN-6SN7-GT-VT231 Grey Glass tube. I would like to put it into my Euforia AE to check that all is well. At the present time I don’t have another to put with it. However I do have a Tung Sol Jan-CTL-6SN7GT VT-231 Black Glass Oval Mica. Any thoughts as to why I cannot put these two together, so I can check the Grey Glass? I’m expecting another two Grey Glass tubes in about 3 weeks. Should I wait?


I wouldn't wait. If anything you should be able to determine if there is a difference in the sound to your ears, and swap sides to confirm what you hear, or don't.
You'll also know if your new one is a stud or a dud.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> I have acquired a CRC-JAN-6SN7-GT-VT231 Grey Glass tube. I would like to put it into my Euforia AE to check that all is well. At the present time I don’t have another to put with it. However I do have a Tung Sol Jan-CTL-6SN7GT VT-231 Black Glass Oval Mica. Any thoughts as to why I cannot put these two together, so I can check the Grey Glass? I’m expecting another two Grey Glass tubes in about 3 weeks. Should I wait?


Yup, @FLTWS is right on as usual.  Won't hurt a thing to try it.


----------



## JTbbb

Thanks for the confirmation guys, I thought it would be fine. The Grey Glass is a good tube 👍, listening to it now. Thanks.


----------



## TLO (Nov 13, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> Thanks for the confirmation guys, I thought it would be fine. The Grey Glass is a good tube 👍, listening to it now. Thanks.


When you said check, one thing comes into my mind. Do you have a multimeter to check for short whenever you try a tube for the first time? It is advisable that you do. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## DTgill

Any info on these would be appreciated?? 

I had an offer but the buyer backed out afraid that they weren't the real deal.

Thanks


----------



## Ranger Ron

DTgill said:


> Any info on these would be appreciated??
> 
> I had an offer but the buyer backed out afraid that they weren't the real deal.
> 
> Thanks


They look like CBS 5692. Very very fine sounding tubes.


----------



## DTgill

Ranger Ron said:


> They look like CBS 5692. Very very fine sounding tubes.


Ya that's what I think too, they are tight. 
I think his issue was they were 6SN7GTB rather than 6SN7GT


----------



## JTbbb

DTgill said:


> Ya that's what I think too, they are tight.
> I think his issue was they were 6SN7GTB rather than 6SN7GT


Well, your buyer needn’t have worried about either of those classifications. As Ranger Ron says, and your thoughts too, they are 5692’s.


----------



## TLO

DTgill said:


> Any info on these would be appreciated??
> 
> I had an offer but the buyer backed out afraid that they weren't the real deal.
> 
> Thanks


The bases look burgundy to me. If red or burgundy, it is RCA 5692. If brown, CBS 5692.


----------



## Renexx

TLO said:


> The bases look burgundy to me. If red or burgundy, it is RCA 5692. If brown, CBS 5692.


Both sound the same 😉


----------



## Contrails

G’day guys, I am looking for some info on Sylvania 6SN7GT.  It has JOM written underneath it. And the numbers 1 1 3 at the base. Black base with green writing. 51 year production during 13th week? 2 - hole. And they sound fabulous. Very neutral, not harsh at all, detailed with excellent Bass.  Even better than Mullard ECC31.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Contrails said:


> G’day guys, I am looking for some info on Sylvania 6SN7GT.  It has JOM written underneath it. And the numbers 1 1 3 at the base. Black base with green writing. 51 year production during 13th week? 2 - hole. And they sound fabulous. Very neutral, not harsh at all, detailed with excellent Bass.  Even better than Mullard ECC31.


Well in this case @bcowen and @Paladin79 are your experts 👌


----------



## TLO (Nov 22, 2021)

Contrails said:


> G’day guys, I am looking for some info on Sylvania 6SN7GT.  It has JOM written underneath it. And the numbers 1 1 3 at the base. Black base with green writing. 51 year production during 13th week? 2 - hole. And they sound fabulous. Very neutral, not harsh at all, detailed with excellent Bass.  Even better than Mullard ECC31.


I will say 13th week of 1951. Earlier Sylvania T-plate 6SN7GT has white print (later green) on the base as well as the code under the tube designation, on the glass, is a letter followed by a number.
A good example is the Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy, made for just a few years in the early 50s, they all have the green print.


----------



## Contrails

TLO said:


> I will say 13th week of 1951. Earlier Sylvania T-plate 6SN7GT has white print (later green) on the base as well as the code under the tube designation, on the glass, is a letter followed by a number.
> A good example is the Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy, made for just a few years in the early 50s, they all have the green print.


Thank you!


----------



## DTgill

TLO said:


> A good example is the Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy, made for just a few years in the early 50s, they all have the green print.


Yep, I have one of these, very nice.


----------



## Mr Trev (Nov 23, 2021)

Time for everybody's favourite game… "What's Wrong With This Picture?"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154426175615 (RCA 6SN7GT Smoked Glass RADIO/AMP Audio VACUUM TUBE Vintage TESTED F.9295-D)


----------



## Deleeh

Mr Trev said:


> Time for everybody's favourite game… "What's Wrong With This Picture?"
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154426175615 (RCA 6SN7GT Smoked Glass RADIO/AMP Audio VACUUM TUBE Vintage TESTED F.9295-D)


Looks like the underbody has a crack in the third picture on the left side.
And somehow it looks quite light, probably already dead or close to it.


----------



## Curtisvill

Mr Trev said:


> Time for everybody's favourite game… "What's Wrong With This Picture?"
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154426175615 (RCA 6SN7GT Smoked Glass RADIO/AMP Audio VACUUM TUBE Vintage TESTED F.9295-D)



The tube in the pictures is not a 6sn7


----------



## Deleeh

Lool.,😂.
Yes, that's right. I've noticed what everyone can say now.
But I didn't really pay attention.
I looked at the tube much more than the description 🤦♀️


----------



## bcowen

Curtisvill said:


> The tube in the pictures is not a 6sn7


Nor is it an RCA.    

Wonder if he tested it on his TV7 with 6SN7 settings?  LOL!


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Time for everybody's favourite game… "What's Wrong With This Picture?"
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154426175615 (RCA 6SN7GT Smoked Glass RADIO/AMP Audio VACUUM TUBE Vintage TESTED F.9295-D)


A 6SN7 is an octal, the picture shows a nonal. The label is Tung Sol, the post is for RCA.


----------



## Mr Trev

Time for the bonus round!
How on earth does a seller with that many wrong things in just 1 ad get 99.3% positive feedback


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Time for the bonus round!
> How on earth does a seller with that many wrong things in just 1 ad get 99.3% positive feedback


He's a BangyBang apprentice??


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Time for the bonus round!
> How on earth does a seller with that many wrong things in just 1 ad get 99.3% positive feedback


Relatives send in feedback…


----------



## Galapac

I would say he was multi posting and got his wires crossed. The detail in the post is correct, just his heading is wrong. 
He seems honest based on his readings for the tube, which is barely over minimum.
Most others quote you NOS readings with no proof.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Time for the bonus round!
> How on earth does a seller with that many wrong things in just 1 ad get 99.3% positive feedback


Is the bonus an extra RCA…er...TungSol…6SN7…uh…12AU7…?


----------



## DenverW

Deleeh said:


> Looks like the underbody has a crack in the third picture on the left side.
> And somehow it looks quite light, probably already dead or close to it.


Well that, and that it is a 12ax7, not a 6sn7.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
For those who saved their money on Black Friday.
I would also be interested if it was a limited edition.
Unfortunately only payable by credit card, no paypal.
Price is for one Tube
https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/input-driver-tubes/products/pages-se-new-6sn7


----------



## Renexx

Very expensive for new stock...I wonder how they sound compared to NOS.


----------



## TLO

Renexx said:


> Very expensive for new stock...I wonder how they sound compared to NOS.


IMO, I wouldnt care for any new production 6SN7s even if it sounds great. I would rather spend the same money on NOS or vintage tubes due to collection value.


----------



## Deleeh

Yes, I think so too. Seems like a possible experiment for the coming year to see how well it goes down.
Next year, a normal 6SN7 should be available again at some point.
Maybe with updates, or they tried to keep people happy with this tube.
Because the blue 6Sn7 is not available at the moment.
The demand would be there.
I originally wanted them before I saw Linlai for the Euforia amplifier but I was too late to get a set.

But the limited version is interesting.
Especially how very analogue is it 😁.


----------



## DenverW

TLO said:


> IMO, I wouldnt care for any new production 6SN7s even if it sounds great. I would rather spend the same money on NOS or vintage tubes due to collection value.


And due to sound quality.  It's just my thoughts, but I'd take almost any NOS tube over the new production stuff; I hated most everything i've heard.


----------



## Renexx

Did somebody listen to  the Sophia electric 6sn7 blue glass? I could barely find opinions about it.


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> And due to sound quality.  It's just my thoughts, but I'd take almost any NOS tube over the new production stuff; I hated most everything i've heard.




Agreed, at price levels as high as these new production tubes (such as the quoted), they would be a tough sale, coz people can easily find much better sound AND quality NOS tubes at much lower prices...I guess that's why we see someone promoting these new production tubes here on Head-Fi from time to time...LOL  

BTW, I don't give a damn about those blue glass, ball glass, WE-copy, ...sort of marketing gimmicks for newbies.


----------



## Galapac

_Sophia Electric utilized its transformer making technics with a complexed *heat treatment process that simulates time effect* to make this new limited edition Classic 6SN7 tubes.  This new tube would sound more like a 1950’s vintage tube even though it was made 70 years later.  Just like aged red wine…_

What marketing hooey…heat treatment is the new cryo?


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> _Sophia Electric utilized its transformer making technics with a complexed *heat treatment process that simulates time effect* to make this new limited edition Classic 6SN7 tubes.  This new tube would sound more like a 1950’s vintage tube even though it was made 70 years later.  Just like aged red wine…_
> 
> What marketing hooey…heat treatment is the new cryo?


…lie-ogenics


----------



## DTgill

jonathan c said:


> …lie-ogenics


----------



## bcowen (Nov 27, 2021)

Galapac said:


> _Sophia Electric utilized its transformer making technics with a complexed *heat treatment process that simulates time effect...*_


As a marketing tool, that statement is so utterly stupid it's almost funny.  Almost.  I don't know anything about Sophia Electric, but based on that alone they sound to me like a couple guys working out of mom's garage.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> As a marketing tool, that statement is so utterly stupid it's almost funny.  Almost.  I don't know anything about Sophia Electric, but based on that alone they sound to me like a couple guys working out of mom's garage.


I dunno, toss a grape into the oven and it becomes a raisin in no time. Seems legit to me


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I dunno, toss a grape into the oven and it becomes a raisin in no time. Seems legit to me


You have a point.  Change "utterly stupid" to just "stupid" then.


----------



## DenverW

I threw some box wine in the microwave and it was soon delicious vintage.  This really works!


----------



## cddc

DenverW said:


> I threw some box wine in the microwave and it was soon delicious vintage.  This really works!




LOL...you got it.

Does the good sounding from vintage tubes have any relationship with the aging process? Obviously NO.


----------



## cddc

A vintage GE tube will sound as bad as a fresh one, if there is one


----------



## jonathan c

DenverW said:


> I threw some box wine in the microwave and it was soon delicious vintage.  This really works!


How about with some GE tubes…preferably metal base…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> As a marketing tool, that statement is so utterly stupid it's almost funny.  Almost.  I don't know anything about Sophia Electric, but based on that alone they sound to me like a couple guys working out of mom's garage.


What happened to Dad?


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 28, 2021)

cddc said:


> A vintage GE tube will sound as bad as a fresh one, if there is one


Being that bad, GE tubes should be unopened: therefore fresh and plentiful…


----------



## TLO (Nov 28, 2021)

cddc said:


> Agreed, at price levels as high as these new production tubes (such as the quoted), they would be a tough sale, coz people can easily find much better sound AND quality NOS tubes at much lower prices...I guess that's why we see someone promoting these new production tubes here on Head-Fi from time to time...LOL
> 
> BTW, I don't give a damn about those blue glass, ball glass, WE-copy, ...sort of marketing gimmicks for newbies.


OK, I confess. If they made something like this...sexy slim and red in color, I might seriously consider it...


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
I haven't heard anything bad about the Sophia Electric tubes so far.
If anything, it has always been good.
The failure rate is also frighteningly low due to the high quality standard.

If anyone has ever heard one, please tell us about it.
I'm sure the text on the page is a bit unfortunate.
It certainly doesn't stand out from the crowd, especially with Nos tubes, some of which are really 60-70 years old or more.
The question is then the price and type of tube.

I can't say that the new tubes are worse than the old ones.
I have the Linlai in the Feliks Euforia and in the new amplifier which is purely based on the 6SN7 concept and the Linlai are also very good there.
I have not yet tried Nos tubes based on 6SN7.
The Nos market is even stranger there with the tube than with the 6As7G or 6080 tubes in my opinion.
But I would be open to it as a cross-comparison.
Otherwise, I found this one that is also interesting.

https://brimaruk.com/product/brimar-tp-6sn7gt/

Yes, Brimar is back, but with some difficulties, a lot of things are still different, more information can be found on the site.
Thanks to Covid, we would probably already be further along without the virus.

I'm still thinking about this or the Tung sol?


----------



## Renexx

This brimar is russian or Chinese made. They only bought the brand.


----------



## Deleeh

Are you sure?
The company is based in England, may not mean much probably because of the taxes 😁.
Which tube should it be closest to?
If it comes from Russia or China?


----------



## tafens

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> For those who saved their money on Black Friday.
> I would also be interested if it was a limited edition.
> Unfortunately only payable by credit card, no paypal.
> ...



Looks nice, usually of what I’ve seen these more expensive new production tubes have more fancy glass shape than the ordinary GT. 

I’m a bit curious though, as with other more expensive new production offerings they sell the top 10% at a premium and the top 30% at a slightly lower premium. But what about the other 70%? Are they outright broken or bad?


----------



## Renexx

Yes new stock tubes are mostly made in Russia and China.

If you want warm lush  British tube Sound with excellent staging  buy these:
https://www.vintage-electronics.co.uk/product/cv1988-6sn7gty-brimar-valve-tube-brown-base-nos-p81/


----------



## TLO (Nov 28, 2021)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> I haven't heard anything bad about the Sophia Electric tubes so far.
> If anything, it has always been good.
> The failure rate is also frighteningly low due to the high quality standard.
> ...


I am guessing it is made in Russia, the disc getter....BTW, if you google Brimar TP 6SN7GT, you dont find close-up image of this tube. Why? Becos they are hiding the fact that they are defintely not made in the UK but perhaps Russia; they dont want you to compare the structure with perhaps Foton 6N8S.

UPDATE: OK, it is made by Shuguang (China)





.


----------



## tafens

Renexx said:


> This brimar is russian or Chinese made. They only bought the brand.





Deleeh said:


> Are you sure?
> The company is based in England, may not mean much probably because of the taxes 😁.
> Which tube should it be closest to?
> If it comes from Russia or China?



I think that the company (the current Brimar) was always based in England but that they’ve bought and branded tubes from another manufacturer, while (re)building their own manufacturing plant.


----------



## Deleeh

TLO said:


> I am guessing it is made in Russia, the disc getter....BTW, if you google Brimar TP 6SN7GT, you dont find close-up image of this tube. Why? Becos they are hiding the fact that they are defintely not made in the UK but perhaps Russia; they dont want you to compare the structure with perhaps Foton 6N8S.
> 
> UPDATE: OK, it is made by Shuguang (China)
> .


Okay,Loool,your photo looks just like this tube here
https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/6sn7gt-tad-premium-selected?number=RT980

and Thanks for the input,👍 @Renexx too for the Link.

I bought it to burn in for other tubes.
Purely on the hybrid amplifier with the 6SN7 sockets it is quite romantic and mostly okay.
In short, it meets the standard.
It lacks a bit of detail for my taste and sweet low ends.
And it is not so deep.
I don't have that with the Linlai in comparison, everything is lush enough and smoother above all, rich in detail, nice sweet spot in the upper area where it sparkles.

On the Feliks Euforia, the Tad did not open up so much.
It also produces a hiss at low ohm headphones on the hybrid amp everything is quiet.

It only opened up after the Mundorf capacitors on the 6SN7 socket were replaced with Vcaps TFTF.
I'm not quite finished with the burn in yet with the Vcaps as they need 400 h minimum, but as a first impression from the first hour until now they have delivered the better result with the Tad tubes and Rca 6AS7G tubes, or with the occasional switch to Linlai and 6080 Mullard/Sylvania there were clear differences to be heard where I would have expected more.

But Chris from Vcaps said I should give the capacitors more time.
At the moment I have a bit of a fear/theory that less good capacitors need better tubes to compensate and vice versa.
But I will tackle it again when the burn is complete.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> What happened to Dad?


Dad took off with a woman half his age, of course.


----------



## Mr Trev (Nov 28, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Dad took off with a woman half his age, of course.


Indeed. Women do love a guy with heat aged tubes.
Or was it mom with the heat aged tubes? - that could explain why Dad ran off


Sorry, it's early and my blood caffeine levels aren't up to snuff


----------



## Galapac

Here is a great guide I found and refer to from time to time that clears up a lot on new production tubes.
There are only 4 manufacturers in the world right now making new tubes.
I suspect Sofia Electric is an offshoot of Shuguang Or Sophia Electric contracts out to them with their specs like Groove Tubes does.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1868850


----------



## TLO

Galapac said:


> Here is a great guide I found and refer to from time to time that clears up a lot on new production tubes.
> There are only 4 manufacturers in the world right now making new tubes.
> I suspect Sofia Electric is an offshoot of Shuguang Or Sophia Electric contracts out to them with their specs like Groove Tubes does.
> 
> https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1868850


Dont forget Takatsuki Electric Industry Co.,Ltd., KR Audio Electronics and Western Electric.


----------



## Galapac

TLO said:


> Dont forget Takatsuki Electric Industry Co.,Ltd., KR Audio Electronics and Western Electric.


Right, forgot at least WE, they are so niche and really for the most privileged at their prices. I did not know of Takatsuki.


----------



## TLO (Nov 28, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Right, forgot at least WE, they are so niche and really for the most privileged at their prices. I did not know of Takatsuki.


Takatsuki is the only tube maker in Japan, famous for their TA-300B. A lot of high-end Japanese tube amp makers use their tubes. For example, Luxman MQ-300.

BTW, correct me if I am wrong, I think PSVANE has also started their own manufacturing plant (used to be made by Shuguang). Not sure about EML tubes, some said they are made by KR Audio's factory. Hope someone knows could enlighten us.


----------



## Deleeh

The Tj Full music is said to be not bad either, but tends to fail frequently.
If Sophia Electric is really made by them, it explains the grade versions they offer.
Presumably the Tj Full Music is a Sophia Electric that is sold but does not meet the standards that Sophia Electric strives for.

That the Tad, Brimar are branded shocks me a little.
I thought there would be at least small changes in the sound.
But it doesn't seem like they make 10,000 and then sell them in portions.
Theoretically, anyone could do that.
I also find it disappointing because when I buy a Tad, which is okay but could be better, and see a Brimar, I expect it to sound a little different.
Nonetheless, try the Tung sol from where I like it for my hybrid amp.
Also the manufacturer recommended it so I guess you can't go wrong I hope.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> For those who saved their money on Black Friday.
> I would also be interested if it was a limited edition.
> Unfortunately only payable by credit card, no paypal.
> ...


Better be good for $200 as you can get a extremely decent NOS tube for this price (Melz, Foton)


----------



## tafens

TLO said:


> BTW, correct me if I am wrong, I think PSVANE has also started their own manufacturing plant (used to be made by Shuguang).


You are correct. As I understand it, people from Shuguang broke off from them and started their own plant which became PSVANE. Then, people from PSVANE broke off from them and started their own plant (again) which became Linlai.
It’s complicated. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Takatsuki is the only tube maker in Japan, famous for their TA-300B. A lot of high-end Japanese tube amp makers use their tubes. For example, Luxman MQ-300.
> 
> BTW, correct me if I am wrong, I think PSVANE has also started their own manufacturing plant (used to be made by Shuguang). Not sure about EML tubes, some said they are made by KR Audio's factory. Hope someone knows could enlighten us.


To my knowledge, KR and EML each have their own manufacturing.  They are the only two that currently manufacture the high-current 300B, the 300BXLS.  My speaker amp requires the high current version due to the voltages involved, and while I've tried a pair of EML's I much prefer the KR's.  Expensive, but built like tanks...I'm going on 20+ years with the original pair and have never had to put my backup pair in play.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> To my knowledge, KR and EML each have their own manufacturing.  They are the only two that currently manufacture the high-current 300B, the 300BXLS.  My speaker amp requires the high current version due to the voltages involved, and while I've tried a pair of EML's I much prefer the KR's.  Expensive, but built like tanks...I'm going on 20+ years with the original pair and have never had to put my backup pair in play.


whoa...I didnt know KR 300B XLS can last that long, I hope my pair of regular KR 300B can last 20 years too...LOL


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> whoa...I didnt know KR 300B XLS can last that long, I hope my pair of regular KR 300B can last 20 years too...LOL


Yup, still going strong.  Last time I checked they were still at about 70% of new GM.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,

A quick question, I have been watching the market for 6SN7 tubes on Ebay and dealers worldwide for a few days.

And I am a bit shocked at what most of them are asking for simple Nos tubes.
Is this normal or is it just a temporary phase that will subside again?
Strangely enough, you find even less in the European sector than on the US market.
Which I think is a real shame.
When I do see something that might fit, I have to add the expensive shipping and duty if I buy in America.
That makes it no fun.

The second point is that even for used tubes they charge absurd money.
And the third point is that on Ebay there is a dealer from Italy where the photos look kind of dodgy.

What do you think? Better wait until everything cools down a bit or buy?

The Tung sol are currently not available in Germany.
I found one in England but I think you could possibly find something better.
I'm actually looking for a set of Nos for about 100€ and wonder if it's enough or if I should spend more?


----------



## Marutks

Deleeh said:


> I'm actually looking for a set of Nos for about 100€ and wonder if it's enough or if I should spend more?



Good tubes (B65) cost a lot more.


----------



## Marutks

But you can use B36 if your amp has 12 volt option.


----------



## Deleeh

Marutks said:


> But you can use B36 if your amp has 12 volt option.


Hello,
No, it's not designed for 12 volts, I think.
The amplifier is a Custommade with 2 6SN7 sockets.
So I am more or less dependent on 6SN7.
But that's not bad.
Maybe I just have to be a bit patient for a bargain.

I was just wondering why this is so as far as the Nos market is concerned.
It's not necessarily because of the money, just to get an impression of the Nos tube, I think it's a bit expensive at the moment.
I would also like to compare the Nos and the Linlai I have.

By the way, Linlai has added a 6SN7-T tube.
It has the Globe style similar to the Ps vane Globe.

But I'm still thinking about the Ps Vane Hifi, which seems to be even better.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> No, it's not designed for 12 volts, I think.
> The amplifier is a Custommade with 2 6SN7 sockets.
> So I am more or less dependent on 6SN7.
> ...


If you’re patient and watch auction site like a hawk you can pounce on very good tubes at reasonable prices, still. I too think it’s gotten ridiculous, particularly  when you see tubes that have been ridden hard and hung up wet and a seller is asking $50 or more for it.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
Quick question:
Does anyone have or know the 6SN7 GT Hitachi/Ultron black plates, copper rods and can give impressions of it?

Another question would be the Ps Vane Hifi Series Uk, which is supposed to be close to the Mullard of the time, does anyone have an impression of it?


----------



## Ranger Ron

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> Quick question:
> Does anyone have or know the 6SN7 GT Hitachi/Ultron black plates, copper rods and can give impressions of it?
> 
> Another question would be the Ps Vane Hifi Series Uk, which is supposed to be close to the Mullard of the time, does anyone have an impression of it?


I have those hitachi tubes. I used them in my amps for one evening, all I can say is they sounded very robust and dynamic. Lots of bass body . I doubt they were fully  ‘burned in’ in one evening, but they were promising. That’s as far as I’ve gotten with them so far.


----------



## Deleeh

Ranger Ron said:


> I have those hitachi tubes. I used them in my amps for one evening, all I can say is they sounded very robust and dynamic. Lots of bass body . I doubt they were fully  ‘burned in’ in one evening, but they were promising. That’s as far as I’ve gotten with them so far.


Ah great, thank you very much.
Sounds good, I found them cheap and bought them to test a Nos pair on my new amp.
But I couldn't judge it at all but the seller is very obliging in that respect.
And had described them similarly to you.

Well, with the burning in is always such a thing, unfortunately.
I guess 50-100 hours should be enough or?


----------



## Renexx (Dec 4, 2021)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> Quick question:
> Does anyone have or know the 6SN7 GT Hitachi/Ultron black plates, copper rods and can give impressions of it?
> 
> Another question would be the Ps Vane Hifi Series Uk, which is supposed to be close to the Mullard of the time, does anyone have an impression of it?



Do you have a picture of those tubes?


I recieved these cheap Reflektor 6n8s tubes today and they actually sound quite good. As a first impression they are better than other warmish tubes like Sylvania GTB or fivre 6sn7gt or even GE 6sn7gt tubes.
They sound slightly warm with good resolution.


----------



## DTgill

Renexx said:


> Do you have a picture of those tubes?
> 
> 
> I recieved these cheap Reflektor 6h8s tubes today and they actually sound quite good. Better than any GTB for sure.
> They sound slightly warm with good resolution.


Maybe or maybe not better than these 5692's


----------



## Renexx

DTgill said:


> Maybe or maybe not better than these 5692's


Well i like it more than my RCA 5692 (CBS sound the same) 

Its between Sylvania 5692 and RCA 5692 in terms of warmth. Resolution should be on same level.


----------



## Deleeh

@Renexx 

I can do that when I receive them.
They are on their way and should receive them on Monday or Tuesday.

Do the 6H8S even fit in the 6SN7 socket?
Talked to the builder of the amp again Ecc 88 would work with an adapter which would be 6922 tubes.
But that would be the last front I would attack.
I would like to stay with the 6SN7.

Maybe some info on the Ps Vane Hifi Uk?
Price would still be acceptable but I didn't like the Ps Vane Mk2 so much, mind they ran on the Feliks Euforia.


----------



## Renexx

6n8s..my bad...and yes they are russian 6sn7 direct replacement.

i would guess you save some money if you buy these...got mine for 15$ with shipping.

Hopefully my Fotons will arrive soon also.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 4, 2021)

Renexx said:


> Do you have a picture of those tubes?
> 
> 
> I recieved these cheap Reflektor 6n8s tubes today and they actually sound quite good. Better than any GTB for sure.
> They sound slightly warm with good resolution.


I'd rather have those tubes than any current production Russian tube.  The '50's era Fotons are my favorites, but the '60's - '70's Soviet production 6N8S/6H8C tubes (regardless of factory) are a great big bang for the buck IMO.


----------



## David222

Would appreciate any help here... I bought these the other day from vacuumtubes.net

The only question I asked was are they NOS and got a "yes" --> GM numbers should be around 2500 for NOS?  Therefore these are used?

Appear to be in original 1944 military carton --  not sure if I paid for NOS and got used ?

thanks for any thoughts


----------



## Ranger Ron

David222 said:


> Would appreciate any help here... I bought these the other day from vacuumtubes.net
> 
> The only question I asked was are they NOS and got a "yes" --> GM numbers should be around 2500 for NOS?  Therefore these are used?
> 
> ...


Brand new tubes can test anywhere from ‘weak’ to incredibly ‘strong’. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
I bought some 6080 tubes from them half a year ago and the Nos tubes were like new.
So I don't think they gave you used ones.
Otherwise they would have said so and made a fair offer, I guess.


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> Would appreciate any help here... I bought these the other day from vacuumtubes.net
> 
> The only question I asked was are they NOS and got a "yes" --> GM numbers should be around 2500 for NOS?  Therefore these are used?
> 
> ...


2600 is the usual "bogey" (or industry average) GM for a 6SN7.  One of those is definitely used, and the other is close to used _up._  If these were sold to you as NOS and you have return/refund privileges, I'd exercise them.


----------



## David222

bcowen said:


> 2600 is the usual "bogey" (or industry average) GM for a 6SN7.  One of those is definitely used, and the other is close to used _up._  If these were sold to you as NOS and you have return/refund privileges, I'd exercise them.



They were indeed sold to me as NOS by Vacuumtubes.net. It was the only question I asked after being told they were available. Pretty shady. 

I'll give them a call tomorrow and sort it out. 

thank you for the inputs. Much appreciated.


----------



## cddc

David222 said:


> Would appreciate any help here... I bought these the other day from vacuumtubes.net
> 
> The only question I asked was are they NOS and got a "yes" --> GM numbers should be around 2500 for NOS?  Therefore these are used?
> 
> ...




If measurements on the labels are correct, these are quite used up tubes. 

vacuumtubes.net has a history of selling used tubes as NOS tubes, there was also discussion about this company on the Crack thread if I recall correctly, just do your homework and search the company's name on head-fi, I think you'll find what the company is about.


----------



## jonathan c

Not to be confused with ‘nosvacuumtubes.net’  (Tubes Unlimited) which is in Houston, TX. I have bought from here a number of items - including Tung Sol 5998s in excellent shape - over the past two years with no issues. Joshua the proprietor has been absolutely responsive to questions.


----------



## David222 (Dec 6, 2021)

cddc said:


> If measurements on the labels are correct, these are quite used up tubes.
> 
> vacuumtubes.net has a history of selling used tubes as NOS tubes, there was also discussion about this company on the Crack thread if I recall correctly, just do your homework and search the company's name on head-fi, I think you'll find what the company is about.



I agree with your point re: homework

I did indeed read the old threads on headfi. There are many previous reviews... going back years on these guys.... some mixed/quite neutral... and some negative. I try to view everything on here in balance given some of silly stuff.

Sometimes I suppose tube newbies (me) experiment, trip, learn and move on.  By COB tomorrow, this will not have been an enjoyable transaction for the merchant  

Anyhoo....much obliged for the help here.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Not to be confused with ‘nosvacuumtubes.net’  (Tubes Unlimited) which is in Houston, TX. I have bought from here a number of items - including Tung Sol 5998s in excellent shape - over the past two years with no issues. Joshua the proprietor has been absolutely responsive to questions.


I've bought from him too (*nos*vacuumtubes.net) and got exactly what was advertised.  Quick shipping too.  Plus, you know the guy is honest when you search on a 5998 tube:

TungSol 5998:  $299
TungSol 2399: $299
GE 6080:  $10

ROFL!!

https://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/?s=5998&post_type=product


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I've bought from him too (*nos*vacuumtubes.net) and got exactly what was advertised.  Quick shipping too.  Plus, you know the guy is honest when you search on a 5998 tube:
> 
> TungSol 5998:  $299
> TungSol 2399: $299
> ...


For $10, I would accept a photograph of a TS 5998 pair…😸


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> For $10, I would accept a photograph of a TS 5998 pair…😸


LOL!  And that may be a bit overpriced for the GE too.  If shipping is free, then it probably works out.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  And that may be a bit overpriced for the GE too.  If shipping is free, then it probably works out.


Only if return shipping is free…😸


----------



## DenverW

At least he's not trying to sell junk tubes for inflated prices.  Every time I see an RCA 6as7g for over $100 with a misleading title it makes me want to punch a baby.


----------



## Galapac

Punch a baby? 😳


----------



## jonathan c

DenverW said:


> At least he's not trying to sell junk tubes for inflated prices.  Every time I see an RCA 6as7g for over $100 with a misleading title it makes me want to punch a baby.


????


----------



## DenverW

Was that my outside voice?!?


----------



## jonathan c

DenverW said:


> At least he's not trying to sell junk tubes for inflated prices.  Every time I see an RCA 6as7g for over $100 with a misleading title it makes me want to punch a baby.


Now, if you put a bunch of GE 6080s in an Everlast bag, hung it from a beam, and whaled away….👍…


----------



## cddc

Galapac said:


> Punch a baby? 😳




Since when "baby" became the short for "*ba*d *b*o*y*"? I guess that's what DW meant?


----------



## jonathan c

cddc said:


> Since when "baby" became the short for "*ba*d *b*o*y*"? I guess that's what DW meant?


…so GE in tube parlance is short for O*G*R*E* ?


----------



## cddc

Is there any solution that dissolves the rust/crust on tube pins quick?

I find Deoxit not working so well (very slow and can't dissolve heavy crust), so does DW-40. I used to use a blade to clean the rusty pins of octal tubes, but I'm getting tired of this method with some nasty tubes, quite tedious.

So trying to find some quick easy method, maybe some solution, you just apply it to pins with Q-tip, wait 10-30 minutes, and cleanse it off with alcohol. Is there such solution?


----------



## Renexx (Dec 7, 2021)

Mechanical method like Sandpaper or glass fibre pen and clean up with alcohol.


----------



## raindownthunda

cddc said:


> I find Deoxit not working so well (very slow and can't dissolve heavy crust), so does DW-40. I used to use a blade to clean the rusty pins of octal tubes, but I'm getting tired of this method with some nasty tubes, quite tedious.
> 
> So trying to find some quick easy method, maybe some solution, you just apply it to pins with Q-tip, wait 10-30 minutes, and cleanse it off with alcohol. Is there such solution?


I've tried a number of methods and have had the most success with a dremel rotary tool and a carbon steel wire brush for cleaning up super corroded pins quickly & effectively without making a mess. They are made for removing rust/corrosion and polishing metal. It can be a little hard to angle the dremel to get in-between the pins and the center, but you get the hang of it quick. Just make sure to wear glasses!


----------



## Renexx (Dec 7, 2021)

I got these 5998s for 200$ by vacuumtubes.net and they seem NIB to me. Actually I can't tell by the measurements if they test NOS. 
Can somebody tell ?

You guys made me curious about my purchase at  vacuumtubes.net.


----------



## TLO

David222 said:


> Would appreciate any help here... I bought these the other day from vacuumtubes.net
> 
> The only question I asked was are they NOS and got a "yes" --> GM numbers should be around 2500 for NOS?  Therefore these are used?
> 
> ...


These readings are considered really low as NOS. NOS (new old stock) means unused which normally tested near or above 2,600 gm. Others might disagree but this is exactly the reason why I dont buy from tube dealers through their websites. Unlike listings in Ebay, almost all of them dont show the actual but stock pictures as well as no up-front test results of the tubes. Yes, you are at the mercy of the dealers on what they are going to send you. I have bought once from a tube dealer (regularly recommended by ppl in various forums) directly and this is exactly the situation I was in. I bought a *NOS* RCA 5691 tube but they shipped me a Sylvania relabled in a white box, and I paid USD 199 for a piece NOT a pair (you can get a pair of mint condition RCA 5691 in original boxes in Ebay for about USD200-220). Worse, this tube died some months later without much use. If this is not a rip-off, I dont know what you call this. IMO, recommending buying only from reputable tube dealers directly and not through Ebay is absolutely overrated.

By comparison, I would very much prefer buying from tube dealers (yes, there are also tubes dealers in Ebay) or private sellers through Ebay. Except those poor listings with unclear pictures, incomplete description with no test results or poor seller's rating, which I always avoid, at least I get to see the actual pictures and up-front test results of the tubes I am buying. You can also briefly determined what kind of the sellers you are dealing with through the feedback in their rating, which I find extremely important.


----------



## whirlwind

cddc said:


> Is there any solution that dissolves the rust/crust on tube pins quick?
> 
> I find Deoxit not working so well (very slow and can't dissolve heavy crust), so does DW-40. I used to use a blade to clean the rusty pins of octal tubes, but I'm getting tired of this method with some nasty tubes, quite tedious.
> 
> So trying to find some quick easy method, maybe some solution, you just apply it to pins with Q-tip, wait 10-30 minutes, and cleanse it off with alcohol. Is there such solution?



Sandpaper , a dremel works great for cleaning pins up nice and shiny


----------



## Mr Trev

cddc said:


> Is there any solution that dissolves the rust/crust on tube pins quick?
> 
> I find Deoxit not working so well (very slow and can't dissolve heavy crust), so does DW-40. I used to use a blade to clean the rusty pins of octal tubes, but I'm getting tired of this method with some nasty tubes, quite tedious.
> 
> So trying to find some quick easy method, maybe some solution, you just apply it to pins with Q-tip, wait 10-30 minutes, and cleanse it off with alcohol. Is there such solution?


Steel wool?


----------



## DTgill

Mr Trev said:


> Steel wool?


Not around the electronics please...


----------



## Mr Trev

DTgill said:


> Not around the electronics please...


As long as you use a goodly bit of compressed air to blow the debris from the pins afterwards, all is fine. I think it goes without saying not to do the cleaning around your gear


----------



## DTgill

Mr Trev said:


> I think it goes without saying not to do the cleaning around your gear


LOL... You'd be surprised


----------



## Mr Trev

DTgill said:


> LOL... You'd be surprised


Sadly, no. That's why I didn't suggest just using the wire wheel on a bench grinder


----------



## cddc

Renexx said:


> Mechanical method like Sandpaper or glass fibre pen and clean up with alcohol.





raindownthunda said:


> I've tried a number of methods and have had the most success with a dremel rotary tool and a carbon steel wire brush for cleaning up super corroded pins quickly & effectively without making a mess. They are made for removing rust/corrosion and polishing metal. It can be a little hard to angle the dremel to get in-between the pins and the center, but you get the hang of it quick. Just make sure to wear glasses!





whirlwind said:


> Sandpaper , a dremel works great for cleaning pins up nice and shiny





Mr Trev said:


> Steel wool?



Thanks guys for the recommendations!

Sandpaper/glass fiber/Dremel/steel wool/blade/etc...with these mechanical methods we still need some time and effort to clean pins, especially on the hard-to-reach portion that faces inwards. I can see that Dremel is the best among these mechanical methods, because you don't have to scrape off the rust/corrosion manually. Also, more or less these mechanical methods will take away some good metal from the pins. So I'm thinking if there is some chemical solution that dissolves the rust/crust quick, something way better than the Deoxit or WD-40? You just apply the liquid solution to quickly dissolve the rust/oxide (without hurting the base metal), then sit and wait, and rinse it off.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Mr Trev said:


> Steel wool?





cddc said:


> Thanks guys for the recommendations!
> 
> Sandpaper/glass fiber/Dremel/steel wool/blade/etc...with these mechanical methods we still need some time and effort to clean pins, especially on the hard-to-reach portion that faces inwards. I can see that Dremel is the best among these mechanical methods, because you don't have to scrape off the rust/corrosion manually. Also, more or less these mechanical methods will take away some good metal from the pins. So I'm thinking if there is some chemical solution that dissolves the rust/crust quick, something way better than the Deoxit or WD-40? You just apply the liquid solution to quickly dissolve the rust/oxide (without hurting the base metal), then sit and wait, and rinse it off.


Bring them to an auto body shop and have them sand blasted! Like most good things in life you have to earn nice shiny pins


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
Chemistry on metal is usually never good.
Especially the thin sheet metal of the pins eats through relatively quickly, as they are no more than 1 mm thick when they are well made.

Furthermore, the surface is already scratched by the corrosion and probably a little thinner.
And it's better to wear it down as much as necessary so that the pins remain stable and don't break.

Deoxite is okay, but certainly not everything.
Wd 40 is even worse to use for something like this.
The pins have no sealing ring, and Wd 40 also contains water.
Dremel is another thing, take a close look at the bottom of the base.
There is a relatively thin wire connected to other pins. if it breaks or comes loose due to the vibration of the Dremel, it's over.
In the end, the tube is more likely to be broken than restored.

If there are corrosion points, the motto is always to start small first.
Instead of using sandpaper, it is better to use abrasive fleece first.
And roughly work the pins with it.
Sanding fleece does not remove any material but treats the surface. Mostly the corrosion is only superficial if the tubes have been stored reasonably well.
Use sandpaper only if the pins are already damaged by the corrosion.
If this has already happened, you have to be careful without it that you can still re-tin it.
A bit of preparatory work is necessary for this.

If you really don't want to remove much, you can also put a drop of Wd 40 or oil on the sanding fleece or sanding paper to get a bit of shine on the surface of the pins.
This will remove the corrosion a little more gently, but it will take longer.

Finally, dip a cotton swab in alcohol and clean the pins.
For sealing, there are some Deoxit products that are not wrong if you want to.

Apart from that, if you sand, you take off material and the pins lose contact with the base, which can cause interference.
You could tin it, which is always a bit tricky to do.
Sandblasting would be an option if the pressure is not set too high and the sand grain is right.
If you do it with a fine, handy nozzle and polish the pins after it, it might work.
The material removal rate is relatively low, but for a trial if you have it, I would take an older/broken tube for testing.

I would distance myself from everything else.
Especially if the tube has cost a lot of money or is rare but still functional.


----------



## Deceneu808

Two months in the waiting, they finally arrived


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Two months in the waiting, they finally arrived


Congrats, comrade!    

Had a chance to listen to them yet?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Congrats, comrade!
> 
> Had a chance to listen to them yet?


From Russia with love….006N8S….licence to ‘roll’…


----------



## Deceneu808 (Dec 10, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Congrats, comrade!
> 
> Had a chance to listen to them yet?


Just plopped them in the Elise. The Fotons. Going to walk the dog so they can warm up a bit. I have about 4 hours until I go to work . M for Mother Russia ?


----------



## LoryWiv

Deceneu808 said:


> Just plopped them in the Elise. The Fotons. Going to walk the dog so they can warm up a bit. I have about 4 hours until I go to work . M for Mother Russia ?


Congrats. love to hear how they sound in Elise.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Dec 10, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Congrats. love to hear how they sound in Elise.


Well... they fixed the VCs a little. Brought the midrange back up where I like it. Nothing to write home about the bass, softer than most and/but very pleasant. Mid range and top end are it's strengths. I can 100 % recommend this tube. Taking it up a notch with the Chatham 6AS7G also. Most sweet mid-forward sound


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Deceneu808 said:


> Well... they fixed the VCs a little. Brought the midrange back up where I like it. Nothing to write home about the bass, softer than most and/but very pleasant. Mid range and top end are it's strengths. I can 100 % recommend this tube. Taking it up a notch with the Chatham 6AS7G also. Most sweet mid-forward sound



Nice, precise impressions. Thanks.

But which tube is it exactly? Sorry, I missed it if it was said somewhere directly above.


----------



## Deceneu808

CaptainFantastic said:


> Nice, precise impressions. Thanks.
> 
> But which tube is it exactly? Sorry, I missed it if it was said somewhere directly above.


1952 Foton 6H8C


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Well... they fixed the VCs a little. Brought the midrange back up where I like it. Nothing to write home about the bass, softer than most and/but very pleasant. Mid range and top end are it's strengths. I can 100 % recommend this tube. Taking it up a notch with the Chatham 6AS7G also. Most sweet mid-forward sound


Give them some play time.  The Fotons need it more than the Melz, but both will benefit from 25+ hours of break-in.  The bass is one of the things I like most about the Fotons. Not necessarily stronger or deeper than other tubes, but it's very well balanced, tuneful, and has a rhythmic quality that I like a lot.  But they are a bit anemic in the bass when brand new IME.

And I love the Foton/Chatham combo....just had that pairing fired up this last weekend (although I was using a '53  ).


----------



## cgb3 (Dec 10, 2021)

Can anyone recommend a quality socket saver (tube riser) for the 6SN7 (8 pin octal)?

Edit: Components would be great. A name brand would be appreciated.


----------



## DTgill (Dec 10, 2021)

cgb3 said:


> Can anyone recommend a quality socket saver (tube riser) for the 6SN7 (8 pin octal)?


I bought these; they seem to be good, no issues for my 6SN7 tubes.

Look Here


----------



## cgb3

DTgill said:


> I bought these; they seem to be good, no issues for my 6SN7 tubes.
> 
> Look Here


Many thanks! On the way.


----------



## Ranger Ron

cgb3 said:


> Can anyone recommend a quality socket saver (tube riser) for the 6SN7 (8 pin octal)?
> 
> Edit: Components would be great. A name brand would be appreciated.


Tubemonger, they make great socket savers. Pounce while in stock, they don’t last long.


----------



## FLTWS

DTgill said:


> I bought these; they seem to be good, no issues for my 6SN7 tubes.
> 
> Look Here


I use that style in 9 pin configuration with my Valhalla II, never had an issue and given the heat V2 throws off I am hopefully running some pricey tubes as well as the chassis, a little cooler.


----------



## magiccabbage

Has anyone heard these tubes from the Sophia website?

https://sophiaelectric.com/collecti...roducts/sophia-electric-blue-glass-6sl7-tubes

Or has anyone know if any of the cheaper options on the site are worth buying?

https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/input-driver-tubes


----------



## TLO (Dec 25, 2021)

magiccabbage said:


> Has anyone heard these tubes from the Sophia website?
> 
> https://sophiaelectric.com/collecti...roducts/sophia-electric-blue-glass-6sl7-tubes
> 
> ...


I am not going to tell you Sophia Electric doesnt make their own tubes, all of the tubes they sell are rebranded of other tube makers. Not to mention they are selling the exact same tubes for a lot more compared to the respectively tube makers. If you believe in their HS about specially selected tubes, be my guest, it is your money...or you can look into PSVANE, Shuguang, Linlai, Full Music, etc...if you dont want to get your feet wet on NOS tubes. Good luck.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 25, 2021)

TLO said:


> I am not going to tell you Sophia Electric doesnt make their own tubes, all of the tubes they sell are rebranded of other tube makers. Not to mention they are selling the exact same tubes for a lot more compared to the respectively tube makers. If you believe in their HS about specially selected tubes, be my guest, it is your money...or you can look into PSVANE, Shuguang, Linlai, Full Music, etc...if you dont want to get your feet wet in NOS tubes. Good luck.


I have to say I'm a bit put off with the total falsehood stated on the linked 6SL7 page.  Of course a TV-7 (and most every other vintage tester) can test both triodes in a dual triode tube.  What friggin' good would those testers be otherwise?





And then to be asking $230 for a pair of run-of-the-mill GE 6SN7's that can be purchased all day long on Ebay for less than $20?  $50 for a pair of standard Shuguangs?  Those cost like $2 a piece in quantity (and maybe not even worth that).  Or the worst insult of all -- $100 for pair of Philips ECG's?  They should be_ sending_ people $100 AND the tubes just to get rid of them.

Sorry @magiccabbage that I'm not answering your questions.  That site is just so full of misinformation and horrendously overpriced tubes that I couldn't help but comment.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> I have to say I'm a bit put off with the total falsehood stated on the linked 6SL7 page.  Of course a TV-7 (and most every other vintage tester) can test both triodes in a dual triode tube.  What friggin' good would those testers be otherwise?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes precisely, you can tell I have no respect for such company, they are as good as con artists. They take others' hard work and package it up with a Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs story for justification of selling you at a premium.


----------



## tafens

They are really trying to invoke FOMO with this one (”Limited Edition” in the title and ”Very limited availability!” in the description):

https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/input-driver-tubes/products/pages-se-new-6sn7

Only $240! Almost ten times what some other standard glass tube new production 6SN7’s cost.. 

Is it their own manufacture or rebranded? If it’s a rebrand, is it possible to see who manufactured them on the interior design?


----------



## magiccabbage

TLO said:


> I am not going to tell you Sophia Electric doesnt make their own tubes, all of the tubes they sell are rebranded of other tube makers. Not to mention they are selling the exact same tubes for a lot more compared to the respectively tube makers. If you believe in their HS about specially selected tubes, be my guest, it is your money...or you can look into PSVANE, Shuguang, Linlai, Full Music, etc...if you dont want to get your feet wet on NOS tubes. Good luck.


Hey I dont mind getting NOS - I have a pair of Tung sol 6f8g black glass but they are near the end of their life. Im using Ken rads at the moment and i like them but I want a few more flavors. Im using them in a WA5 with AVVT 300b and HD800. 


TLO said:


> Yes precisely, you can tell I have no respect for such company, they are as good as con artists. They take others' hard work and package it up with a Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs story for justification of selling you at a premium.


I had no idea - good thing I checked here first.


----------



## musicman59

magiccabbage said:


> Hey I dont mind getting NOS - I have a pair of Tung sol 6f8g black glass but they are near the end of their life. Im using Ken rads at the moment and i like them but I want a few more flavors. Im using them in a WA5 with AVVT 300b and HD800.
> 
> I had no idea - good thing I checked here first.


The AVVT 300b are great tubes. I used to own a WA5-LE 1st gen and still have stored a pair of those as well as a pair of EML 300b Mesh and a bunch of 6SN7 and 6F8G tubes.


----------



## magiccabbage

musicman59 said:


> The AVVT 300b are great tubes. I used to own a WA5-LE 1st gen and still have stored a pair of those as well as a pair of EML 300b Mesh and a bunch of 6SN7 and 6F8G tubes.


Well if you ever wanna sell any just let me know. I would like to have at laest another 4 pairs of 6sn7. I would also love to try the elrog 300b - ive heard so many good things about them.


----------



## musicman59

magiccabbage said:


> Well if you ever wanna sell any just let me know. I would like to have at laest another 4 pairs of 6sn7. I would also love to try the elrog 300b - ive heard so many good things about them.


Sure, I’ll let you know.
I bought the 1st generation of Elrog and was a disaster. They failed within a month. They got replaced and immediately sold the replaced pair new.


----------



## Deleeh

magiccabbage said:


> Well if you ever wanna sell any just let me know. I would like to have at laest another 4 pairs of 6sn7. I would also love to try the elrog 300b - ive heard so many good things about them.


Hello,
I tried to find out more information about the cheaper tubes (Ge) offered by Sophia Electric and unfortunately the information I received was rather sparse.
This was also a bit noticeable in the answer. 

So the buy button didn't really get me going - even with the limited edition tube, the information was so sparse that it was better to leave it alone.

When the Linlai came out at the beginning of the year I got an answer from them and it was more satisfactory and they also managed to describe their 6SN7 halfway.
And they were also able to name a few attributes in that respect.

That's why I can only join the others.
I think that when you buy tubes, the dealers should know at least a little bit about them.
No one likes to buy a flop, which does happen, but at that price I have to be honest and say that you are advertising a product that you should know about.

Similarly with Billigton in the UK, don't buy the house brand. This is a normal tube bought at a similar or cheaper price.
You are paying for the advertised service which is quite rare.
This is what happened to me when I asked for the 6AS7G Billigton, which is then a Svetlana that you can buy anywhere at the normal price.
Even then, the information was very, very sparse, so I didn't bother.
It may mean free market economy but it is fraud if you talk about it openly.


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


----------



## Galapac

If you are going to buy new tubes stick to resellers like Craig from NessTone.com who will readily admit that he has rebranded tubes from Shuguang and others but has his specs and his name on the tubes. He also pre-tests his stock before it is shipped out and his prices are very good. I have bought from him a few times and he is always quick to respond and has replaced a tube I got that had a loose base.
He sells his tubes and others at reasonable prices.


----------



## David222

Recently came across these on the world wide web...appreciate any thoughts?

If not mistaken, I remember reading older thread(s) indicating Amperex never manufactured 6SN7, correct?


----------



## TLO

David222 said:


> Recently came across these on the world wide web...appreciate any thoughts?
> 
> If not mistaken, I remember reading older thread(s) indicating Amperex never manufactured 6SN7, correct?


Those are RCA 6SN7GTB relabeled.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
any suggestion about this tube?

https://www.ebay.de/itm/165249308380


----------



## Ripper2860

The most sought after are the black plate WH GTBs (these are gray) with the square top getter holder and Reliatron labeled base.  I'd keep on the lookout for those.  I can say with certainty that they are very nice sounding tubes.


----------



## Renexx (Dec 29, 2021)

Just got these in today. 
I can only tell these are made by Westinghouse in USA 1961/62 and not made in Japan like the later versions.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/2-NEU-Westi...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
These would be the Japan made version. Seems to have grey plates.

For early  6sn7gt versions westinghouse did only relabel RCA tubes.


----------



## Deleeh

Ripper2860 said:


> The most sought after are the black plate WH GTBs (these are gray) with the square top getter holder and Reliatron labeled base.  I'd keep on the lookout for those.  I can say with certainty that they are very nice sounding tubes.


Hello, 
and thanks for the feedback.
So are the ones I linked to above "good" or "bad" versions of WH?
Because I am thinking about buying them.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> and thanks for the feedback.
> So are the ones I linked to above "good" or "bad" versions of WH?
> Because I am thinking about buying them.


After all of the forum reading I have done, Japanese tubes come highly regarded. If you want real Westinghouse tubes don’t buy the tubes you have linked. I’m fairly certain they are Japanese.


----------



## Deleeh

Ranger Ron said:


> After all of the forum reading I have done, Japanese tubes come highly regarded. If you want real Westinghouse tubes don’t buy the tubes you have linked. I’m fairly certain they are Japanese.


Okay, too bad and thank you very much.
Are there any differences in sound between the US and Japanese versions?
I also did some googling and most people were happy with it.
And they also pointed out the 337 marker that this is supposed to be a US version.
I saw that it was even on it and that it was from 1964.
If it was a Japanese one and they are in demand, it wouldn't necessarily be wrong, would it?

The Hitachi Ultron I have could convince me on the Feliks Euforia with the Mullard pairing.
And it is a Japanese tube.


----------



## Renexx (Dec 29, 2021)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> and thanks for the feedback.
> So are the ones I linked to above "good" or "bad" versions of WH?
> Because I am thinking about buying them.


 To me your link seems to be the USA made versions. But the pictures are quite bad! The mica construction seems to be like the ones I have and not round shape like the Japanese ones.




Also notice the print on the top "made in USA"

Westinghouse did make tubes in USA until 1965 then imported from Japan.


----------



## TLO (Dec 29, 2021)

tafens said:


> They are really trying to invoke FOMO with this one (”Limited Edition” in the title and ”Very limited availability!” in the description):
> 
> https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/input-driver-tubes/products/pages-se-new-6sn7
> 
> ...












https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/post-15097775
It is a NEC 6SN7GTB relabeled...now, you know...


----------



## Deleeh (Dec 29, 2021)

TLO said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/post-15097775
> It is a NEC 6SN7GTB relabeled...now, you know...


Boaar is a cheek when you see what the Nec costs compared to the Sophia Electric tubes.
So huge price difference in that respect and then it's a Japanese one and not an Us one where they try to make gold out of lead.

Thanks for the info👍

Edit:
Here's a bit of history that might shed some light on the darkness.
Reads a bit strange with the translator but still okay.
The tubes don't look bad either.
https://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/VTV/11_Spring_1999.pdf


----------



## Isaacc7

I haven't gone through this entire master thread so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. I'm sure we all know that the 7n7 is the same tube as a sylvania 6sn7. Fine tubes throughout their run. You can find both tall and short bottle versions of the 7n7 that correspond to 6sn7 of the same vintage. The 14n7 is a 12v version of the 7n7 and so you would think that it would be equivalent to the Sylvania 12sn7. Well, the plates do look the same but curiously they have an extra copper support rod in them. Check it out, this is a NU branded short bottle:




And here is an earlier tall bottle 14n7 with Zenith labeling with the same structure:





I no longer have any with me to compare but I'm pretty sure this is similar to the coveted and much (much!) more expensive Sylvania metal base 6sn7w. I have never seen any other sylvania 6sn7 or 12sn7 with the copper support rods in them. Nor have I seen any 7n7 tubes with them. I'm pretty sure it is only the metal base 6sn7w Ann the 14n7 that have these. The 14n7 is still around although they are considerably more difficult to find than the 7n7. I use these in my Supratek preamp and they sound amazing.


----------



## Isaacc7

Here's another 14n7 puzzle. It is my understanding that all 7n7 and 14n7 tubes were made by Sylvania except for a very early version that was actually made by NU. It's also my understanding that the plates of the Sylvania *n7 tubes were identical to the *sn7 tubes of the same vintage. I don't think I've ever seen a grey glass Sylvania 6sn7 but look at this:





Has anyone ever seen a comparable looking Sylvania 6sn7 or 12n7? This does have the copper rod in it like I mentioned in my previous post. I think they sound a little darker than my other 14n7 tubes but I don't know if that's just my imagination lol. This almost looks like a 14n7 shoved in the bottle of a 14c5. Wonder what was going on at the factory...


----------



## mourip

Does anyone have experience using a Raytheon 2C50 as a replacement for a 12SN7? Brett Jesse used to carry them and lists them as a replacement. Depending upon what you read online they can be used or are not really a good replacement. I used them for a while in my LTA Microzotl Preamp and they sounded very good. I am considering them for my Lampizator Baltic 3 which allows use of 12 volt versions of the 6SN7 but after reading a questionable post from an "expert" decided to ask around.

Thanks!


----------



## David222

Ken-Rad Question:

Is the 9-Hole Top Mica / black plates (1940s) comparable to the VT-231 ?


----------



## Ranger Ron

David222 said:


> Ken-Rad Question:
> 
> Is the 9-Hole Top Mica / black plates (1940s) comparable to the VT-231 ?


All the same regardless of base stampings. The Internals are what matter.


----------



## Ranger Ron

David222 said:


> Ken-Rad Question:
> 
> Is the 9-Hole Top Mica / black plates (1940s) comparable to the VT-231 ?


I have KenRad’s labeled GE, VT231 and CBS, they all sound like KenRad. Some people think the black glass sound better, some think there is no difference.


----------



## musicinmymind

Paladin79 said:


> I just noticed on a headphone site that someone is selling a Lyr 3 with four Foton tubes, some of which have the tubes re-soldered. It appears more and more people are learning about the solder in some of the Russian tube pins.



What solder you are refering to, I can use Foton with Darkstar without any solder and just sounds awesome.


----------



## Paladin79

musicinmymind said:


> What solder you are refering to, I can use Foton with Darkstar without any solder and just sounds awesome.


If you work with enough Fotons you can discover that their sonic qualities drift in and out, it was once thought they needed 100 hours of burn in. A lot of the sought after Fotons are from the early fifties and thus are 65 to 70 years old. I have found the solder to be breaking down inside the tube pins and I remove and replace the old solder just as I would with some of the other Russian tubes like Melz and Svetlana. Tung Sol 5998's can even exhibit this to some extent.  I ran some experiments for those believing in the 100 hour burn in and found after replacing the solder in the pins the burn in was closer to ten hours. Some of the tubes stored away after the 100 hours burn in, without replacing the solder were back to square one, they can be a sonic roller coaster ride for a while. I worked through some of this with @bcowen and he probably has the largest collection of Foton tubes known to man.


----------



## musicinmymind

Paladin79 said:


> If you work with enough Fotons you can discover that their sonic qualities drift in and out, it was once thought they needed 100 hours of burn in. A lot of the sought after Fotons are from the early fifties and thus are 65 to 70 years old. I have found the solder to be breaking down inside the tube pins and I remove and replace the old solder just as I would with some of the other Russian tubes like Melz and Svetlana. Tung Sol 5998's can even exhibit this to some extent.  I ran some experiments for those believing in the 100 hour burn in and found after replacing the solder in the pins the burn in was closer to ten hours. Some of the tubes stored away after the 100 hours burn in, without replacing the solder were back to square one, they can be a sonic roller coaster ride for a while. I worked through some of this with @bcowen and he probably has the largest collection of Foton tubes known to man.



Thanks for letting me know, after reading @bcowen posts I did try them. 
57's was just ok, but 52 one's is really awesome sounding tube right out of box, My brother had them unused.

Hope soldering holds up and I will have no issues.


----------



## Paladin79

musicinmymind said:


> Thanks for letting me know, after reading @bcowen posts I did try them.
> 57's was just ok, but 52 one's is really awesome sounding tube right out of box, My brother had them unused.
> 
> Hope soldering holds up and I will have no issues.


I have re-soldered so many I have lost count. Mr. Cowen is now discovering why I like the Melz 1578's from the fifties and early sixties so much, they can be ten times the cost of a Foton or more, the Foton is a great tube for the price. I buy directly from friends in Russia but it is taking a couple months to get product right now.


----------



## musicinmymind

Paladin79 said:


> I have re-soldered so many I have lost count. Mr. Cowen is now discovering why I like the Melz 1578's from the fifties and early sixties so much, they can be ten times the cost of a Foton or more, the Foton is a great tube for the price. I buy directly from friends in Russia but it is taking a couple months to get product right now.



Melz like this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172487222716?hash=item28290a25bc:g:CLUAAOSw6NVeHSKs


----------



## JTbbb

musicinmymind said:


> Melz like this one?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/172487222716?hash=item28290a25bc:g:CLUAAOSw6NVeHSKs


That looks pretty good compared to these. But I think the date would be good to know. Mr Palladin is the expert though.


----------



## Isaacc7

mourip said:


> Does anyone have experience using a Raytheon 2C50 as a replacement for a 12SN7? Brett Jesse used to carry them and lists them as a replacement. Depending upon what you read online they can be used or are not really a good replacement. I used them for a while in my LTA Microzotl Preamp and they sounded very good. I am considering them for my Lampizator Baltic 3 which allows use of 12 volt versions of the 6SN7 but after reading a questionable post from an "expert" decided to ask around.
> 
> Thanks!


I too am interested in hearing about people's experiences with the 2c50. I bought some because my preamp uses 12sn7 tubes but the maker told me I should not put anything in it that isn't a direct replacement for it like a 14n7. I may be commissioning an amp later in the year that can use a variety of 12v double triodes.


----------



## musicinmymind

JTbbb said:


> That looks pretty good compared to these. But I think the date would be good to know. Mr Palladin is the expert though.



Will wait for Mr Palladin to confirm, right now just enjoying Fotons.

Thanks to @bcowen


----------



## Paladin79

musicinmymind said:


> Melz like this one?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/172487222716?hash=item28290a25bc:g:CLUAAOSw6NVeHSKs


You want the metal supports at the top, those are ok but you should search for a better price.


----------



## Paladin79

musicinmymind said:


> Will wait for Mr Palladin to confirm, right now just enjoying Fotons.
> 
> Thanks to @bcowen


I would have to see the Melz logo but if those are 1963 that is a good year. 1961 is amazing but I have only seen one and I own it.😜


----------



## JTbbb

Paladin79 said:


> You want the metal supports at the top, those are ok but you should search for a better price.


Ah yes, closer examination of the tube musicinmymind refers to seems to show plastic supports at the top.


----------



## Paladin79

I watch for those tubes pretty often looking for what I consider to be the holy grail.😁


----------



## musicinmymind

Paladin79 said:


> I watch for those tubes pretty often looking for what I consider to be the holy grail.😁



1961's are the holy grail


----------



## JTbbb

I’m thinking of selling mine. I have other 6sn7’s which I prefer, and will last me lifetime!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 13, 2022)

musicinmymind said:


> 1961's are the holy grail


They are extremely close. The best ones to me look identical to the 1578's but have a solid shiny plate instead of the perforated. They may have been a factory mistake or just built some when they ran out of perforated plates, they are my favorites and were chosen blind as one of the highest rated 6sn7's out of over 1500 equivalent tubes eight of us tried.  The 1961 came in one point under as I recall.

Mind you I test in amps I designed, @bcowen and @sam6550a have one but I am trying to get away from amp building so they are not exactly available. I have a last loaner going out sometime in the next week just for a few friends to hear, who never got the opportunity before.


----------



## billbishere

Any seen this before?  One side is brighter than other on the top.  Left side brighter but only at the top.  As far as I can tell it sounds normal but I have no comparison since I just got the amp / tube.  I have already ordered a new tube for tube rolling but, am curious to know if this one is bad because if so I will email schiit for a replacement.  I may just do that anyway and see what they say.


----------



## Mr Trev

billbishere said:


> Any seen this before?  One side is brighter than other on the top.  Left side brighter but only at the top.  As far as I can tell it sounds normal but I have no comparison since I just got the amp / tube.  I have already ordered a new tube for tube rolling but, am curious to know if this one is bad because if so I will email schiit for a replacement.  I may just do that anyway and see what they say.


I have many tubes that are like that. As far as I know, there's no harm in it


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I have many tubes that are like that. As far as I know, there's no harm in it


You are right and here is a brief explanation I borrowed.   

Flashed getters are prepared by arranging a reservoir of volatile and reactive material inside the vacuum system. After the system has been evacuated and sealed, the material is heated (usually by radio frequency induction heating). After evaporating, it deposits as a coating on the interior surfaces of the system. Flashed getters (typically made with barium) are commonly used in vacuum tubes. Most getters can be seen as a silvery metallic spot on the inside of the tube's glass envelope. Large transmission tubes and specialty systems often use more exotic getters, including aluminium, magnesium, calcium, sodium, strontium, caesium, and phosphorus.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
I have the same problem with the Feliks Euforia: the left side is a little brighter than the right.
I don't think it has any influence.
Possible explanation would be that the left runs a little hotter than the right.
At least that's what I told myself.
In the end, I see it as burnt residue from production residues, such as glue, coatings, grease, etc. that are produced during manufacturing.


----------



## bcowen

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> I have the same problem with the Feliks Euforia: the left side is a little brighter than the right.
> I don't think it has any influence.
> Possible explanation would be that the left runs a little hotter than the right.
> ...


When this happens it's likely that the filament is sticking a bit further out of one plate than the other. Nothing to worry about.


----------



## Pondoro

billbishere said:


> Any seen this before?  One side is brighter than other on the top.  Left side brighter but only at the top.  As far as I can tell it sounds normal but I have no comparison since I just got the amp / tube.  I have already ordered a new tube for tube rolling but, am curious to know if this one is bad because if so I will email schiit for a replacement.  I may just do that anyway and see what they say.


I came home from work and checked my Saga. Brightness on each side is equal. Do I need to do a blind test?


----------



## bcowen

Pondoro said:


> I came home from work and checked my Saga. Brightness on each side is equal. Do I need to do a blind test?


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Deleeh

Pondoro said:


> I came home from work and checked my Saga. Brightness on each side is equal. Do I need to do a blind test?


😂😂😂😂


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> When this happens it's likely that the filament is sticking a bit further out of one plate than the other. Nothing to worry about.


I have one tube (don't remember the manf) where the top of the right heater filament was brighter by exactly the same amount as the bottom of the left heater filament. I don't suppose heaters can be installed upside down, can they


----------



## David222

Paladin79 said:


> They are extremely close. The best ones to me look identical to the 1578's but have a solid shiny plate instead of the perforated. They may have been a factory mistake or just built some when they ran out of perforated plates, they are my favorites and were chosen blind as one of the highest rated 6sn7's out of over 1500 equivalent tubes eight of us tried.  The 1961 came in one point under as I recall.
> 
> Mind you I test in amps I designed, @bcowen and @sam6550a have one but I am trying to get away from amp building so they are not exactly available. I have a last loaner going out sometime in the next week just for a few friends to hear, who never got the opportunity before.



Is this what "solid shiny plate" should look like (not perforated) ?


----------



## Deceneu808

IIRC you still need rectangle ladder support top and bottom and the metal ears at top. Basically you will never ever find one


----------



## David222

Deceneu808 said:


> IIRC you still need rectangle ladder support top and bottom and the metal ears at top. Basically you will never ever find one



Well, I'm pretty good at hunting things down on the internet machine....problem here is I'm not 100% on what this rare bird looks like.  

If you happen to have a photo of the correct (build) version w/ the ladder supports and ears...that would be appreciated


----------



## TLO

Are you guys talking about this variant of MELZ 1578? These are made in 1976.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> IIRC you still need rectangle ladder support top and bottom and the metal ears at top. Basically you will never ever find one


I have and just purchased a couple more. You just have to watch carefully. You also want the shiny black plate and not the dull grey one.


----------



## Paladin79

TLO said:


> Are you guys talking about this variant of MELZ 1578? These are made in 1976.


Those have the perforated plate and are common


----------



## Ripper2860

Never give up.  Rare, but they are out there.  I found one at $80 from a seller in Japan a few months ago.  Set a search on Fleabay and check new listings daily while paying attention to build characteristics.  



Paladin79 said:


> Mind you I test in amps I designed, *@Ripper2860*, @bcowen and @sam6550a have one but I am trying to get away from amp building so they are not exactly available. I have a last loaner going out sometime in the next week just for a few friends to hear, who never got the opportunity before.  I do this because I'm a nice guy and *because I do so enjoy letting folks listen to an amp that will likely be one of the best they've ever heard with almost zero possibility of ever actually owning one.*



@Paladin79 -- FTFY.   

(That's just mean.  Unintentionally mean, but mean none-the-less.)


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 17, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> Never give up.  Rare, but they are out there.  I found one at $80 from a seller in Japan a few months ago.  Set a search on Fleabay and check new listings daily while paying attention to build characteristics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  

I need a break but had already promised some friends a listen.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 17, 2022)

David222 said:


> Well, I'm pretty good at hunting things down on the internet machine....problem here is I'm not 100% on what this rare bird looks like.
> 
> If you happen to have a photo of the correct (build) version w/ the ladder supports and ears...that would be appreciated




Here is one from 1956, I also found 1957, 1958. These IMHO are the holy grail and quite often sell for less than the perforated plates because not as many people know about them. Solid plate Melz, identical in construction to the standard 1578's but no perforated plates.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> I have and just purchased a couple more. You just have to watch carefully. You also want the shiny black plate and not the dull grey one.


That's why I was saying one can't find one


----------



## Renexx (Jan 17, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Here is one from 1956, I also found 1957, 1958. These IMHO are the holy grail and quite often sell for less than the perforated plates because not as many people know about them. Solid plate Melz, identical in construction to the standard 1578's but no perforated plates.



Do they need to have black plates ? I think mine have greyish plates on 1956.

Nevermind it has dark  shiny plates haha.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> That's why I was saying one can't find one


I have contacts in Russia who look for such things for me. I was out of town over Xmas and one is going back to the seller on Ebay, look for this one and you can buy it pretty cheap.


----------



## Paladin79

Renexx said:


> Do they need to have black plates ? I think mine have greyish plates on 1956.


I own both types and the black plates tested much higher for myself and friends.

(we use our own point system grading on 25 different criteria and have tested in excess of 1500 types of 6sn7 equivalents.)


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 17, 2022)

Renexx said:


> Do they need to have black plates ? I think mine have greyish plates on 1956.
> 
> Nevermind it has dark  shiny plates haha.


56 was the first year I found, by accident. How do you like that tube? See my tests have a lot to do with accuracy across the whole sound spectrum. If you like a tube with a lot of bass slam, that may not be the tube for you. Once again we are testing in amps I designed to show off 6sn7 sound and as best I recall those who have the amps agree.  

If you do not like the sound, PM me and I would buy it if the price is near what I normally pay.


----------



## Renexx

I like the tube alot and it's even a little better than vt-231 for soundstaging.

I couldn't spot a sonic difference to my 1981 perforated plates melz with 1578 stamp. Sadly the soldering on the   1981 tube seems to be faulty.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 17, 2022)

Renexx said:


> I like the tube alot and it's even a little better than vt-231 for soundstaging.
> 
> I couldn't spot a sonic difference to my 1981 perforated plates melz with 1578 stamp. Sadly the soldering on the   1981 tube seems to be faulty.


I spend a lot of time replacing the solder inside the Melz and Foton pins, I am in the middle of some things right now but if you can solder I would work with you if you need instructions.

The 81's are very common and have mids that smack you in the face, in my amps anyway. Myself, and seven friends rated the tubes blind and most any 1578 from the 70's and 80's tested much lower. I can think of hybrid amps that would probably show little difference but that is not how I test.


----------



## Renexx

I did never solder before and don't have a soldering gear hehe, that's my problem.


----------



## Deceneu808

I resoldered my 63 perf plates a while back. I was getting pops and crackles all over. Those are gone but they still buzz slightly when no music is playing. Might do them again


----------



## Paladin79

Renexx said:


> I did never solder before and don't have a soldering gear hehe, that's my problem.


And you are in Germany or I would solder it for you at no charge lol. I hate to get involved in shipping it between countries. Maybe you know an engineer or technician who could help?


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> I resoldered my 63 perf plates a while back. I was getting pops and crackles all over. Those are gone but they still buzz slightly when no music is playing. Might do them again


I have had some I had to redo a few times and I extract the old solder, clean the inside of the pins with liquid rosin, then use rosin core solder of a small diameter inside the pins. I did a tube once where I could actually see the solder was around a pin but not adhering properly till the fourth cleaning lol. Rosin cleans the metal you are about to solder and after 60 years or so, the pin wire can be corroded.


----------



## Renexx

Sadly I'm the only one with this hobby haha.
I doubt it's that easy to do without knowledge.


----------



## JTbbb

All this talk of Melz 1578’s means I’m going to have to get my ‘63’s back in 😀


----------



## Paladin79

JTbbb said:


> All this talk of Melz 1578’s means I’m going to have to get my ‘63’s back in 😀


Those are a pretty good year, I bought them in bulk and matched pairs and quads but I did not have them for long lol.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> That's why I was saying one can't find one


Yeah, @Paladin79 owns them all. Well, except the single, lonely one I have.  That he gave me.   

But if I get to feeling inadequate at some point, I'll call up the Foton army and obliterate him.  Strength in numbers and all.   🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

I tried searching for this and didn't find anything so apologies if this has been answered before. I'm a fan of sylvania *sn7 and *n7 tubes. Pulled a Sylvania 12j5gt out of my stash and was surprised by the plate structure. This tube has the familiar bottom getter and three holes but it looks like it has a round plate? I always thought that the 6j5gt and 12j5gt were just single triode versions of the 6/12sn7 but this looks different. Are there 6sn7 tubes with the same plate?


----------



## jonathan c

Renexx said:


> I doubt it's that easy to do without knowledge.


What Bangybang prays for and preys on…😏😋


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> What Bangybang prays for and preys on…😏😋


Thank you for saying that. I'm glad to see it isn't just me that thinks that ebay seller is out of his mind for pricing.


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Thank you for saying that. I'm glad to see it isn't just me that thinks that ebay seller is out of his mind for pricing.


This is a post, a bit ago, on the DarkVoice thread 😄:


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Thank you for saying that. I'm glad to see it isn't just me that thinks that ebay seller is out of his mind for pricing.


He is one of the ‘triumvirate’: Bangybang, Menifee, wege_high_tubes…where the vacuum is always in your wallet…


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Jan 18, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> He is one of the ‘triumvirate’: Bangybang, Menifee, wege_high_tubes…where the vacuum is always in your wallet…



In keeping with the Roman theme, in Europe check out the prices from cartago_delenda_est. He has a tube I would want which is priced at 4x normal market price and with 50 eur intra-EU shipping on top. I don't understand who buys from these sellers...


----------



## TLO (Jan 18, 2022)

CaptainFantastic said:


> In keeping with the Roman theme, in Europe check out the prices from cartago_delenda_est. He has a tube I would want which is priced at 4x normal market price and with 50 eur intra-EU shipping on top. I don't understand who buys from these sellers...


Yes, I have long noticed a crazy Italian seller selling tubes at crazy prices, another two are from Vietnam and India.

Check out this listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/e80cc-tube...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> I have contacts in Russia who look for such things for me. I was out of town over Xmas and one is going back to the seller on Ebay, look for this one and you can buy it pretty cheap.


Thank you. Found it !  Should arrive in March


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> I have had some I had to redo a few times and I extract the old solder, clean the inside of the pins with liquid rosin, then use rosin core solder of a small diameter inside the pins. I did a tube once where I could actually see the solder was around a pin but not adhering properly till the fourth cleaning lol. Rosin cleans the metal you are about to solder and after 60 years or so, the pin wire can be corroded.


Interesting enough is that I just resoldered them and they are dead silent in one amp and buzz in the other. Will they benefit from a old fashioned burn in ?


----------



## smallmouthrule

Renexx said:


> Did somebody listen to  the Sophia electric 6sn7 blue glass? I could barely find opinions about it.


Best 6SN7 I have heard. Went through many others old and new and these are the best to my ears. Sophia Electric tubes are second to none. Thanks.


----------



## Renexx

Interesting, I couldn't find many sound impressions of these tubes and they seem to be discontinued aswell.

You did compare them to VT-231s and they are better ?

I only have psvane cv-181 gold as new production tubes  and they are not better but haven't burned them in properly.


----------



## TLO (Jan 18, 2022)

smallmouthrule said:


> Best 6SN7 I have heard. Went through many others old and new and these are the best to my ears. Sophia Electric tubes are second to none. Thanks.


Really? Which one? hmm...one post and one like...
The one that sell for as high as USD240 per piece where it is basically a relabeled NEC / Channel Master 6SN7GT that sell for dirt cheap in Japan?


----------



## musicinmymind

TLO said:


> Really? Which one? hmm...one post and one like...
> The one that sell for as high as USD240 per piece where it is basically a relabeled NEC / Channel Master 6SN7GT that sell for dirt cheap in Japan?



May be this one
https://www.ttvjaudio.com/Sophia-6SN7-p/sop0000173.htm


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, @Paladin79 owns them all. Well, except the single, lonely one I have.  That he gave me.
> 
> But if I get to feeling inadequate at some point, I'll call up the Foton army and obliterate him.  Strength in numbers and all.


The Melz 1578 is like the English long bow, it took skill to master and was effective at long distances. At the battle of Agincourt in 1415, 1,000 arrows were fired every second.

The Foton is more like the medieval cross bow, something you handed to peasants so they could learn it quickly and kinda, sorta, hit something at close range if they were lucky. Foton army indeed lol.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Thank you. Found it !  Should arrive in March


I was hoping I left enough clues,


----------



## Paladin79

smallmouthrule said:


> Best 6SN7 I have heard. Went through many others old and new and these are the best to my ears. Sophia Electric tubes are second to none. Thanks.


My current 6sn7 testing was set up to include any tube, any shape, and pairs of single triode tubes like 6j5 or 7A4 so we certainly did blind tests with Sophias and tubes at high prices but I want to say we maxed out at $2,000 on a couple tubes. My earlier testing prohibited some of the round tube shapes.

I used the same setup for @bcowen and for Jason at Schiit. Bill had the ability to name many of the tubes blind, I can name a few as can local friends but not to his accuracy.


----------



## TLO

musicinmymind said:


> May be this one
> https://www.ttvjaudio.com/Sophia-6SN7-p/sop0000173.htm


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sophia-electric-6sn7.442746/

That blue glass version is made by Tianjin Full Music.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Interesting enough is that I just resoldered them and they are dead silent in one amp and buzz in the other. Will they benefit from a old fashioned burn in ?


All tubes have a burn in period I would think, often I do like a tube right out of the box and can tell if I will like it later but if I say that out loud @bcowen may have a hissy fit.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> All tubes have a burn in period I would think, often I do like a tube right out of the box and can tell if I will like it later but if I say that out loud @bcowen may have a hissy fit.


…hissy fit 👍, hissy tube 👎…


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> The Melz 1578 is like the English long bow, it took skill to master and was effective at long distances. At the battle of Agincourt in 1415, 1,000 arrows were fired every second.
> 
> The Foton is more like the medieval cross bow, something you handed to peasants so they could learn it quickly and kinda, sorta, hit something at close range if they were lucky. Foton army indeed lol.


After resoldering the pins, Fotons are more like this:


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> All tubes have a burn in period I would think, often I do like a tube right out of the box and can tell if I will like it later but if I say that out loud @bcowen may have a hissy fit.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> After resoldering the pins, Fotons are more like this:


Photon torpedo? This thread needs the occasional Star Trek reference.


----------



## tafens (Jan 19, 2022)

LoryWiv said:


> Photon torpedo? This thread needs the occasional Star Trek reference.


Absolutely. But spell it Foton torpedo instead, and the the word “torpedo tube” gets a whole new meaning…


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> Photon torpedo? This thread needs the occasional Star Trek reference.


Do you want Tribbles all over the Elise? 😳


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Do you want Tribbles all over the Elise? 😳


That's the nerdiest sex euphemism I've heard


----------



## paradoxper

This stupid ****kkkkkkkkk world. 

Does anyone have a line on 6SN7 Sophia Blue Glass. They are impossible. It is maddening.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Jan 19, 2022)

PHOTON good. me LIKE






EDIT : no really I haven't rolled in weeks. It just works with everything


----------



## LoryWiv

jonathan c said:


> Do you want Tribbles all over the Elise? 😳


No, but I wouldn't mind a dilithium power supply!


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> No, but I wouldn't mind a dilithium power supply!


…. “beam me up, Elise”…


----------



## David222 (Jan 20, 2022)

Deceneu808 said:


> Thank you. Found it !  Should arrive in March



Same here. Melz enroute.  Thank you @Paladin79  very helpful and appreciated !!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 20, 2022)

David222 said:


> Same here. Melz enroute.  Thank you @Paladin79  very helpful and appreciated !!


I try to help when I can.   I am even sending a couple Melz out with a loaner amp so folks can hear them compared to Sylvania and such in an amp that shows off 6sn7 sound. I was just asked about this one, it has the dull grey plates, a decent sounding tube but not on the same level as the shiny plate version, IMHO.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-tube-157...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
short question to this Tube.Are they a good Foton who comes from the 1960s? Anyone heard it?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/271847158136


----------



## Marutks (Jan 25, 2022)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> short question to this Tube.Are they a good Foton who comes from the 1960s? Anyone heard it?
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/271847158136



I have a pair made in 1955.  They are very quiet  (more than many other 6sn7 tubes I have tried).  
The sound is excellent but I also use 6J5 tubes in my amp (Blue Halo).


----------



## bcowen

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> short question to this Tube.Are they a good Foton who comes from the 1960s? Anyone heard it?
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/271847158136


The 1950's vintage are much better, especially the pre-1957 ribbed plates. I have several with 1960 - 1967 dates, and they are OK but nothing special to my ears.


----------



## Paladin79

Marutks said:


> I have a pair made in 1955.  They are very quiet  (more than many other 6sn7 tubes I have tried).
> The sound is excellent but I also use 6J5 tubes in my amp (Blue Halo).


Put them in a stock DarkVoice and you will wish for other tubes. DV and Russian tubes are not compatible.😜
I have tried most years on the Fotons and after the pins are re-soldered they are a good value and I have given plenty away with my amps.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Put them in a stock DarkVoice and you will wish for other tubes. DV and Russian tubes are not compatible.😜
> I have tried most years on the Fotons and after the pins are re-soldered they are a good value and I have given plenty away with my amps.


There's no such thing as too many Fotons.  No such thing as too many Melz either, you just need a much fatter wallet.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
And thanks for the suggestions sounds not bad.
Fortunately, they would not be for the Darkvoice but for Feliks Euforia amplifier.
I saw the pair somewhere cheaper.
But at 6$ a piece, you do get suspicious.
The Russian one would be the only thing missing from my collection.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as too many Fotons.  No such thing as too many Melz either, you just need a much fatter wallet.


I don't mean to be "that guy", but one of your '57s is in the '56 section


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I don't mean to be "that guy", but one of your '57s is in the '56 section


A '57 trying to masquerade as a '56?  Maybe even a _ribbed plate_ '56?  Unacceptable.  I'm gonna put it in the tester and juice its heaters with 117v.  That'll learn it.


----------



## DenverW

Mr Trev said:


> I don't mean to be "that guy", but one of your '57s is in the '56 section


Lol!  How embarrassing!  Who would do that?!?!  Get it together, Bcowen!


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> A '57 trying to masquerade as a '56?  Maybe even a _ribbed plate_ '56?  Unacceptable.  I'm gonna put it in the tester and juice its heaters with 117v.  That'll learn it.


That'd be cool! Be sure to post a video.


----------



## Ripper2860

DenverW said:


> Lol!  How embarrassing!  Who would do that?!?!  Get it together, Bcowen!


I'm sure there is a viable reason for its placement.  I suspect that Foton was mfg June 15th of 1956 and @bcowen struggled greatly in determining its placement.  I suspect it resides in the '56 pile for first 6 months of the year and then gets moved to the '57 pile the last 6 months.  Obviously, the picture was taken in the 2nd half of the year.  

Being OCD is a curse @bcowen must carry and he carries it well.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as too many Fotons.  No such thing as too many Melz either, you just need a much fatter wallet.


I am curious how many are re-soldered so to avoid the 100 hour burn in.   One does not need a fat wallet for Melz if you have the right connections. I got some highly prized versions for $35 each.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 27, 2022)

I'm sure @bcowen is working his way through burning-in this stash on his Vali.  I think he's worked his way through the first column and half-way through the second.  He has no life, so it gives him something to do.  

BTW -- I think the 100 hour burn-in only applies when using music.  If he is using Marilyn Manson, it cuts burn-in time to 10 minutes per tube before they either straighten up and fly right or just quit altogether.  


***Ooops.  Appears that I double-posted.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 27, 2022)

I decided on a 1976 Melz 1578 to go out with a loaner amp, great bass, mids are really strong, a great match with a Tung Sol 6080. I will include a 57 Foton and at least one Sylvania.


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> I decided on a 1976 Melz 1578 to go out with a loaner amp, great bass, mids are really strong, a great match with a Tung Sol 6080. I will include a 57 Foton and at least one Sylvania.


Nice Knobs!


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> Nice Knobs!


I had something more pewter looking on it before but decided to go chrome to match the rest of the hardware.


----------



## Ripper2860

I think @FLTWS meant to post that in another forum.  😄


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> Lol!  How embarrassing!  Who would do that?!?!  Get it together, Bcowen!


C'mon and give me a break. It's not easy being me.  🤣


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am curious how many are re-soldered so to avoid the 100 hour burn in.   One does not need a fat wallet for Melz if you have the right connections. I got some highly prized versions for $35 each.


The ones that have an "RS" on them.  So, 3 I guess?  😁  I have a couple on the desk that I rotate in and out which have been resoldered too.  The problem with these Fotons is that resoldered or not they last forever, so no big need to go on a resoldering rampage.  A couple months ago I retested the first rib plate I got (a '51) that probably has 2k hours on it and it tests exactly as it did when new.  Of course it wasn't new for long because I burned it in for 100 hours right off the bat.  😅


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm sure there is a viable reason for its placement.  I suspect that Foton was mfg June 15th of 1956 and @bcowen struggled greatly in determining its placement.  I suspect it resides in the '56 pile for first 6 months of the year and then gets moved to the '57 pile the last 6 months.  Obviously, the picture was taken in the 2nd half of the year.
> 
> Being OCD is a curse @bcowen must carry and he carries it well.


Oh please.  It's much easier for _you_ to organize all seven of your tubes.  🙃


----------



## Ripper2860

Organize? Pffft.  I just stick my hand in the bin and pull out a random tube leaving my fate to the tube gods.  😏


----------



## David222

bcowen said:


> The ones that have an "RS" on them.  So, 3 I guess?  😁  I have a couple on the desk that I rotate in and out which have been resoldered too.  The problem with these Fotons is that resoldered or not they last forever, so no big need to go on a resoldering rampage.  A couple months ago I retested the first rib plate I got (a '51) that probably has 2k hours on it and it tests exactly as it did when new.  Of course it wasn't new for long because I burned it in for 100 hours right off the bat.  😅



I was very curious what "RS" stood for.  Now I know.


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> I was very curious what "RS" stood for.  Now I know.


😅

The ones with the "C" were cryo treated.  Resoldering = very worthwhile. Cryo treating? Not exactly.  Perhaps something miraculous happens during or after this process, it just doesn't manifest itself audibly.  🙂


----------



## cgb3

Not "blue glass", but...
https://sophiaelectric.com/products/pages-se-new-6sn7


----------



## cgb3

David222 said:


> I was very curious what "RS" stood for.  Now I know.


Bunch of nerdy dweebs. Everyone knows "RS" stands for "Rally Sport".

Where's my damned Camaro, I've got some of those "RS" tubes to install.


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> Organize? Pffft.  I just stick my hand in the bin and pull out a random tube leaving my fate to the tube gods.  😏


Nice. Basically the same method I use to pick which iem I'm going to listen to


----------



## David222

Ripper2860 said:


> Organize? Pffft.  I just stick my hand in the bin and pull out a random tube leaving my fate to the tube gods.  😏



_"...just stick my hand in the bin..."_

Isn't this how "noodling" got started? Bunch of tube enthusiasts decided to try fishing


----------



## cgb3

Men sticking their arms down gaping maws...

Yea, I get the fish thought, but the smell is secondary. Maybe a little closer to the adage "loose lips", sink ships.

"But she liked it, governor"!


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm sure there is a viable reason for its placement.  I suspect that Foton was mfg June 15th of 1956 and @bcowen struggled greatly in determining its placement.  I suspect it resides in the '56 pile for first 6 months of the year and then gets moved to the '57 pile the last 6 months.  Obviously, the picture was taken in the 2nd half of the year.
> 
> Being OCD is a curse @bcowen must carry and he carries it well.


It is actually worse. Since 1956 is a leap year, @bcowen can only share that Foton between the two piles every four years…😳…


----------



## TLO

cgb3 said:


> Not "blue glass", but...
> https://sophiaelectric.com/products/pages-se-new-6sn7


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-16736070
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/page-1865#post-15097775


----------



## tafens

TLO said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-16736070
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2359glenn-studio.600110/page-1865#post-15097775



Yeah, I think I’ll give that one a pass, especially since the non-rebranded version apparently can be found at $60 (for a _pair_):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1MP-6SN7GT...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

(Per tube roughly 20% of what the Sophia costs )


----------



## TLO

tafens said:


> Yeah, I think I’ll give that one a pass, especially since the non-rebranded version apparently can be found at $60 (for a _pair_):
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1MP-6SN7GT...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> (Per tube roughly 20% of what the Sophia costs )


The best is to buy directly from Japan if shipping cost is not a problem for you. These are selling dirt cheap in Japan.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The ones that have an "RS" on them.  So, 3 I guess?  😁  I have a couple on the desk that I rotate in and out which have been resoldered too.  The problem with these Fotons is that resoldered or not they last forever, so no big need to go on a resoldering rampage.  A couple months ago I retested the first rib plate I got (a '51) that probably has 2k hours on it and it tests exactly as it did when new.  Of course it wasn't new for long because I burned it in for 100 hours right off the bat.  😅


I stay pretty busy resoldering tubes for others and usually resolder the Fotons just before sending them with amps. I charge nothing for my work but oftentimes folks insist I keep a tube or two for my troubles. I have worked on several GEC's, Tung Sol 5998's, and the usual Melz and Foton. I even figured out a way to remove a short from the inside of one very pricey GEC but I would not recommend the method for others to try.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Paladin79 said:


> I stay pretty busy resoldering tubes for others and usually resolder the Fotons just before sending them with amps. I charge nothing for my work but oftentimes folks insist I keep a tube or two for my troubles. I have worked on several GEC's, Tung Sol 5998's, and the usual Melz and Foton. I even figured out a way to remove a short from the inside of one very pricey GEC but I would not recommend the method for others to try.



I wish I knew how to resolder tubes. I have two very nice GECs (an 6AS7G and a metal base L63) that I suspect need just that... How hard is it to do for someone who has never used a soldering gun before?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 28, 2022)

CaptainFantastic said:


> I wish I knew how to resolder tubes. I have two very nice GECs (an 6AS7G and a metal base L63) that I suspect need just that... How hard is it to do for someone who has never used a soldering gun before?


I would definitely find some non working tubes to practice on, there was a guy on Etsy who sells them and I have fixed several by resoldering the pins on those anyway lol. He sold them by the pound as I recall. I used them on headphone stands such as this.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/614831032/lot-of-3-medium-st-style-vacuum-radio?click_key=c77dee3188ba2a48cb7c46f254da391e5537e5e7:614831032&click_sum=8a11067c&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=vacuum+tubes+for+crafts&ref=sr_gallery-1-8&organic_search_click=1&frs=1

https://www.etsy.com/listing/112822...ick_sum=cc4a60de&ref=shop_home_active_5&frs=1





I can walk you through all the procedures when I get time.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

This good looking L63 pair with foil getters was dead on arrival because one of the tubes is not putting out any sound. Did some testing, cleaned the pins nicely (they were already in good shape visually), verified it's not my adapter, not the other tube, just one tube being silent. Could this issue be fixed with resoldering? It seems to be operating fine otherwise.

(sorry for the non 6SN7 post)


----------



## Paladin79

CaptainFantastic said:


> This good looking L63 pair with foil getters was dead on arrival because one of the tubes is not putting out any sound. Did some testing, cleaned the pins nicely (they were already in good shape visually), verified it's not my adapter, not the other tube, just one tube being silent. Could this issue be fixed with resoldering? It seems to be operating fine otherwise.
> 
> (sorry for the non 6SN7 post)


L63's are single triode versions of 6sn7's so I would think it is appropriate. Do the filaments light up? If not look carefully at pins 2 and 7 I believe. If you have an ohmmeter, across the heaters should read a dead short or very low resistance, you can measure the good one against the one not working.  It can certainly be poor solder inside a pin. I have fixed some GEC's with that issue.


----------



## Deleeh

tafens said:


> Yeah, I think I’ll give that one a pass, especially since the non-rebranded version apparently can be found at $60 (for a _pair_):
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1MP-6SN7GT...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
> 
> (Per tube roughly 20% of what the Sophia costs )


Hello,
I bought the Nec a few weeks ago.
The dealer is trustworthy.
And it arrived from India to Germany within a week.
Give the tube a good time to burn in.
At the beginning it can sound a bit shrill, but this will subside with time.
The basic character of the tube is slightly forward in the voice range but not extreme, has a nice treble response that is warm and not too exaggerated.
It has a very good resolution of details concerning instruments that seem very authentic.
The bass is enough but not too much and not too little.
I used the tube in two headphone amps.
On the Feliks Euforia everything was OK except for the bass.
In a hybrid amplifier equipped with a 6SN7 socket, the tube showed its true character as described above and is better suited there.

Personally, of course, it is a matter of taste that I find this tube better in stereo systems than on headphone amplifiers.
The reason is simple, depending on the amplifier, the bass may be too little, and with stereo systems you can increase the bass range, but not with headphone amplifiers.

With the Lcd2C headphones I found they delivered very very good results, I must say, just the right thing.
With the Aeon R/T I expected something similar, but it went in the opposite direction.
Instead of being more analytical, it was more subdued.
To be honest, I don't really know what to do with it.
Anyway, I left the tube in the hybrid amp and connected it to the system via the preamp output and I have to say that the results are the same as described above.
It is really not a bad tube.
Whether it is really worth 200$ what Sophiaelectric charges per piece is justified I may doubt.
I don't see any reason to spend 400$ for a couple of tubes, if you have to accept minimal sacrifices in comparison to the Nosmarkt.
Regarding the readings and condition of the tubes.
But what is outrageous is that you pay more for the label and name than for the tube.
Even if we live in a free market economy, it is an outrage.
Also the description Sophia Electric gives is not what the tube claims to be in my opinion.
So I can only say thanks again to @TLO for the tip.


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> _"...just stick my hand in the bin..."_
> 
> Isn't this how "noodling" got started? Bunch of tube enthusiasts decided to try fishing


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It is actually worse. Since 1956 is a leap year, @bcowen can only share that Foton between the two piles every four years…😳…


That makes it really easy to remember:  swap piles every underwear change.  Perfect!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I stay pretty busy resoldering tubes for others and usually resolder the Fotons just before sending them with amps. I charge nothing for my work but oftentimes folks insist I keep a tube or two for my troubles. I have worked on several GEC's, Tung Sol 5998's, and the usual Melz and Foton. I even figured out a way to remove a short from the inside of one very pricey GEC but I would not recommend the method for others to try.


Yet the Melz you gifted me was _not_ resoldered.  I see where I stand.  ☹️


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would definitely find some non working tubes to practice on, there was a guy on Etsy who sells them and I have fixed several by resoldering the pins on those anyway lol. He sold them by the pound as I recall. I used them on headphone stands such as this.
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/614831032/lot-of-3-medium-st-style-vacuum-radio?click_key=c77dee3188ba2a48cb7c46f254da391e5537e5e7:614831032&click_sum=8a11067c&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=vacuum+tubes+for+crafts&ref=sr_gallery-1-8&organic_search_click=1&frs=1
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/1128221409/lot-of-9-oktal-vacuum-tubes-black-glass?click_key=c53b8e24a7b165d061bae84f1e80586bbd51df0f:1128221409&click_sum=cc4a60de&ref=shop_home_active_5&frs=1
> ...


Or something like this to practice on.  If you totally destroy them it will be a very humane thing to do.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 28, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Yet the Melz you gifted me was _not_ resoldered. I see where I stand. ☹️


I gave you all my soldering secrets, do I need to drive there and plug tubes in your amp and tester too? Wait, you are about to get hit with a huge snow storm again I believe. You folks probably have no road crews to handle such a thing. Louisville used to be bad enough, an inch of snow and folks started playing bumper cars. 

I treat you too well already, you are the inspiration for the wonderful tiger maple amp I am going to build my son, I may even build it sideways. I will be sure and tell him a Mr. Cowen would have loved this amp lol.


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> I gave you all my soldering secrets, do I need to drive there and plug tubes in your amp and tester too? Wait, you are about to get hit with a huge snow storm again I believe. You folks probably have no road crews to handle such a thing. Louisville used to be bad enough, an inch of snow and folks started playing bumper cars.
> 
> I treat you too well already, you are the inspiration for the wonderful tiger maple amp I am going to build my son, I may even build it sideways. I will be sure and tell him a Mr. Cowen would have loved this amp lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I gave you all my soldering secrets, do I need to drive there and plug tubes in your amp and tester too? Wait, you are about to get hit with a huge snow storm again I believe. You folks probably have no road crews to handle such a thing. Louisville used to be bad enough, an inch of snow and folks started playing bumper cars.
> 
> I treat you too well already, you are the inspiration for the wonderful tiger maple amp I am going to build my son, I may even build it sideways. I will be sure and tell him a Mr. Cowen would have loved this amp lol.


First I get slighted on the resoldering, and now you're going to_ give away_ *my* tiger maple?  Fine.  I will NOT send you any Marigo dots to put on it then.  Take that.


----------



## David222 (Jan 28, 2022)

My first pair of Melz 1578 arrived today. Hopefully I made out OK ?  One thing I may have missed with purchase... these look like grey plates vs. black plates?  Always a learning curve for tube newbies.

Looking forward to trying them out -- assuming I can bring myself to remove the Brimar CV1988 KB/FBs  I just got from Langrex....love the sound of these


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> My first pair of Melz 1578 arrived today. Hopefully I made out OK ?  One thing I may have missed with purchase... these look like grey plates vs. black plates?  Always a learning curve for tube newbies.
> 
> Looking forward to trying them out -- assuming I can bring myself to remove the Brimar CV1988 KB/FBs  I just got from Langrex....love the sound of these


Those aren't 1578's.  They are the more common 6N8S (or 6H8C).  Good sounding tubes (depending on year), just not at the level of a true 1578.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 28, 2022)

My first pair of Melz 1578 arrived today. Hopefully I made out OK ?  One thing I may have missed with purchase... these look like grey plates vs. black plates?  Always a learning curve for tube newbies.

Looking forward to trying them out -- assuming I can bring myself to remove the Brimar CV1988 KB/FBs  I just got from Langrex....love the sound of these  


[/QUOTE]
Those Melz are probably equivalent to Fotons, you have many layers of Melz to enjoy if you take the time to learn about them and have the cash to allow you to learn.👍


----------



## David222

Paladin79 said:


> Those Melz are probably equivalent to Fotons, you have many layers of Melz to enjoy if you take the time to learn about them and have the cash to allow you to learn.👍



Ha. Silly newbie.  Will go back into this thread and read (again).  See what I missed re: 1578


----------



## David222 (Jan 28, 2022)

.


----------



## galveston22

Where did you get this beautiful tubes from? Im have a freya+ I just got but I bought it without tubes.


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> Ha. Silly newbie.  Will go back into this thread and read (again).  See what I missed re: 1578


----------



## Paladin79

galveston22 said:


> Where did you get this beautiful tubes from? Im have a freya+ I just got but I bought it without tubes.


I run a Freya + and a Freya before that, maybe tomorrow I can help with tube selection. Right now mine feeds a class A amp that adds wonderful heat and music.🤪


----------



## Deleeh

bcowen said:


>


Hello,
Then the one I bought is the Souz if I compare it right?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/271847158136

Are there any differences in sound then? Or are all three "the same" or "similar"?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 28, 2022)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> Then the one I bought is the Souz if I compare it right?
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/271847158136
> 
> Are there any differences in sound then? Or are all three "the same" or "similar"?


The one you bought is the center tube as I recall. There are huge differences in sound between the three. There are slight differences between 1578’s from the 50’s and early sixties. Large differences between 1578’s from the 70’s and 80’s, then there are variations that most folks have not heard because of rarity.

I designed an amp to show off differences, the amplifier itself can make a big difference.


----------



## cgb3

David222 said:


> Ha. Silly newbie.  Will go back into this thread and read (again).  See what I missed re: 1578


No shame. Everyone who ventures down the rabbit hole of vintage tubes is going to make mistakes.

I don't know if it's true, but the ancients tell the story of an old tube shaman wearing an UNC jersey who once bought a GE tube.


----------



## jonathan c

cgb3 said:


> No shame. Everyone who ventures down the rabbit hole of vintage tubes is going to make mistakes.
> 
> I don't know if it's true, but the ancients tell the story of an old tube shaman wearing an UNC jersey who once bought a GE tube.


…and is still using it…😳😱…


----------



## bcowen

cgb3 said:


> No shame. Everyone who ventures down the rabbit hole of vintage tubes is going to make mistakes.
> 
> I don't know if it's true, but the ancients tell the story of an old tube shaman wearing an UNC jersey who once bought a GE tube.




Seriously?  I know some people there. Let me know who it was and I'll have every last reference to his existence erased from all known records.  What a moron.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …and is still using it…😳😱…


Well it couldn't be ancient then.  No GE lasts that long.


----------



## bcowen

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> Then the one I bought is the Souz if I compare it right?
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/271847158136
> 
> Are there any differences in sound then? Or are all three "the same" or "similar"?


No, look at the micas...and the bases.  The Souz has rectangular micas (yours are oval), and the Souz has a bakelite/phenolic base where yours are metal.  What you have is definitely a Melz, just not a 1578 Melz. And again, the regular 6N8S Melz is a nice sounding tube. Hope you didn't pay 1578 prices for them, but either way they're quite good enough to enjoy.


----------



## jonathan c (Jan 28, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Well it couldn't be ancient then.  _The tube shaman was wearing a UNC jersey. _No The GE mistake lasts that long. 😫


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## Mr Trev

Anybody try those Souz 6n8s? I don't think I've heard anybody mention them. Just Melz and Foton


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Anybody try those Souz 6n8s? I don't think I've heard anybody mention them. Just Melz and Foton


I've never tried one. In fact, never even heard of them before seeing the name in that picture. Nothing going by 'Souz' listed on Ebay (at least currently), and googling it just brings up 'Soyuz'.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


That's more of a RTFY (Rewrote This For You).  But thanks anyway.  😂


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
And thank you again.
I wasn't sure about that after the picture that was posted.
Roughly speaking, I would have guessed the Souz now.
But I am glad that it is not one and a better one.
I didn't think it was a real Melz at this price either.
But the fact that it is one after all, but somehow not, is of course also reassuring to know.
I'm looking forward to it coming and hope it works properly and I'll be surprised.

Thank you very much for the information @bcowen  and @Paladin79


----------



## bcowen

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> And thank you again.
> I wasn't sure about that after the picture that was posted.
> Roughly speaking, I would have guessed the Souz now.
> ...


Oooops...I wasn't paying close enough attention and confused your post with @David222 's earlier post.  My apologies.  David222 has the Melz 6N8S.  From the Ebay link you provided, you're getting mid-60's Fotons.  Could be the "Souz" tube (in the previously posted 1578 comparison photo) is just another name for Foton, as I can't find any reference to Souz tubes, and the internal construction looks to be very close if not identical.   The '60's (and later) Fotons are OK, but the 1950's versions are quite a bit better.  Something along the lines of this (which looks to be a nice quad for a good price):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154734173846?hash=item2406e01e96:g:28YAAOSwebNhrHeM


----------



## Paladin79

Tube suggestions for the Freya +, you need not use quads but it is wise to use matched pairs on each side. The pair of tubes on the right will have the most impact on SQ, favorite pairs there are Melz 1578's, CBS/Hytron 5692's, and war vintage RCA grey glass but good luck finding a matched pair. On the left side I generally run Raytheon 6sn7wgt's, or Raytheon VT-231 T-plates courtesy of Mr. Cowen. 

As far as OTL amps, todays listen is starting off with GEC L63's once I got them to fit in my personal Incubus amp. Power tube is a Tung Sol 5998, of course.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> First I get slighted on the resoldering, and now you're going to_ give away_ *my* tiger maple?  Fine.  I will NOT send you any Marigo dots to put on it then.  Take that.


I may hold some tiger maple back, we will see.   I need to make sure my new cabinet building technique works and I am nearly ready to try except it is 6 degrees F here today and my shop will be freezing.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Tube suggestions for the Freya +, you need not use quads but it is wise to use matched pairs on each side. The pair of tubes on the right will have the most impact on SQ, favorite pairs there are Melz 1578's, CBS/Hytron 5692's, and war vintage RCA grey glass but good luck finding a matched pair. On the left side I generally run Raytheon 6sn7wgt's, or Raytheon VT-231 T-plates courtesy of Mr. Cowen.
> 
> As far as OTL amps, todays listen is starting off with GEC L63's once I got them to fit in my personal Incubus amp. Power tube is a Tung Sol 5998, of course.


Hmmmm....I seem to have no trouble at all with single triodes fitting in my _correctly_ configured Incubus. Just sayin'. 😂😂


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may hold some tiger maple back, we will see.   I need to make sure my new cabinet building technique works and I am nearly ready to try except it is 6 degrees F here today and my shop will be freezing.


So dovetailed corners then?!?!?  I'll wait patiently.  Kind of.  😁


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm....I seem to have no trouble at all with single triodes fitting in my _correctly_ configured Incubus. Just sayin'. 😂😂



And they can even fit on a BHC with Deyan's adapter that turns 90 degrees.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm....I seem to have no trouble at all with single triodes fitting in my _correctly_ configured Incubus. Just sayin'. 😂😂
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is made for appearance and SQ, functionality gets in the way sometimes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> So dovetailed corners then?!?!?  I'll wait patiently.  Kind of.  😁


You are allowed no input whatsoever if I make you a second one, those are the rules, I lived through that once and it would be like deja vu all over again.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> And they can even fit on a BHC with Deyan's adapter that turns 90 degrees.


Man, what nice tubes you have there!  I only have the 'cheap seats' L63's...I imagine those Marconis are the bomb.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You are allowed no input whatsoever if I make you a second one, those are the rules, I lived through that once and it would be like deja vu all over again.


I seem to remember hearing that before. At least I think I do.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bcowen said:


> Man, what nice tubes you have there!  I only have the 'cheap seats' L63's...I imagine those Marconis are the bomb.



I'm not falling for it.  I understand your collection is... vast, shall we say. 

But no, so far I had the GEC L63s straight bottle and the GEC L63s shouldered bottle. The former sound slightly better. So these Marconi's are the same as the latter. Should sound the same. I am yet to assess. I simply fell for the aesthetics of it. Very superficial, but I wasn't able to help it.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You are allowed no input whatsoever if I make you a second one, those are the rules, I lived through that once and it would be like deja vu all over again.


…it ain’t over ‘til the fat single triode pair sings…🎼


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …it ain’t over ‘til the fat lean-challenged single triode pair sings…🎼


FTFY.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> FTFY.


How's the weather there Bill? Something like this?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> How's the weather there Bill? Something like this?


LOL!  Nope, not for me.  We got maybe 1/2" of snow that has pretty much all melted off now. But as per usual, the grocery stores were stripped clean last night with everyone preparing to be snowed in for 3 months.  The local news showed a Food Lion with checkout lines wrapping all the way down and around the aisles. I find it rather amusing.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Nope, not for me.  We got maybe 1/2" of snow that has pretty much all melted off now. But as per usual, the grocery stores were stripped clean last night with everyone preparing to be snowed in for 3 months.  The local news showed a Food Lion with checkout lines wrapping all the way down and around the aisles. I find it rather amusing.






This must have been the previous snow then.

Back to tubes. I am curious if @Deleeh has any access to RFT 6sn7's?  I may have asked that before but I would think they would be easier to find than some of the Melz in that part of Europe.


----------



## paradoxper

These suckers are transformative allowing the Freya + to flex with air and sweetness very hard to find in balance across many amplifiers. I may go as far to say my favorite audio purchase since the dawn of the DIY T2 with an appreciable step up in musical enjoyment. I recommend pairing with either RCA smoke or the VT231 to maintain a bit more body.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 29, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> These suckers are transformative allowing the Freya + to flex with air and sweetness very hard to find in balance across many amplifiers. I may go as far to say my favorite audio purchase since the dawn of the DIY T2 with an appreciable step up in musical enjoyment. I recommend pairing with either RCA smoke or the VT231 to maintain a bit more body.


I tried a matched quad of those in my Freya + and they were scary good but a bit overwhelming lol. A matched pair is as far as I go now on the right side of the Freya. I have not played with the T2 but did build a Whammy sometime back since it is class A. I have a couple single channel Class A I might listen to as well but I prefer tube amps.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> I tried a matched quad of those in my Freya + and they were scary good but a bit overwhelming lol. A matched pair is as far as I go now on the right side of the Freya.


A quad would be interesting. I'll have to hunt another pair down which seems increasingly difficult to find.

I can't say with the VT231 I find anything lacking though. Thoroughly satisfied besides lusting for the damned Sophia Blue Glass. Ha.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 29, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> A quad would be interesting. I'll have to hunt another pair down which seems increasingly difficult to find.
> 
> I can't say with the VT231 I find anything lacking though. Thoroughly satisfied besides lusting for the damned Sophia Blue Glass. Ha.


Are you talking RCA VT231?  I always liked the Ken-Rad black glass VT231 myself. I have owned RCA black glass but they never did much for me. (non VT231).

I have heard the Sophias, I would place them in my top 50 but not the top 10.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> Are you talking RCA VT231?  I always liked the Ken-Rad black glass VT231 myself. I have owned RCA black glass but they never did much for me. (non VT231).


Sorry. I should be more clear, for the VT231, I am directly referencing the Ken-Rad and the RCA grey/smoked I suppose are also a VT231?


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Sorry. I should be more clear, for the VT231, I am directly referencing the Ken-Rad and the RCA grey/smoked I suppose are also a VT231?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/265221121048?hash=item3dc0692418:g:7OgAAOSwHC9g5NC6
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304281506177?epid=1504045787&hash=item46d8975181:g:fQEAAOSw3GthzD5B
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133184318902?hash=item1f02676db6:g:-bsAAOSwy6la64Jz

Yep, the second one I would consider black glass myself.

As far as the Ken-Rad, this is the version I prefer, they are getting pricey.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1652770809...YUUeUcmR9Q%3D%3D|clp:2334524|tkp:BFBMuonO79Rf


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/265221121048?hash=item3dc0692418:g:7OgAAOSwHC9g5NC6
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/304281506177?epid=1504045787&hash=item46d8975181:g:fQEAAOSw3GthzD5B
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/133184318902?hash=item1f02676db6:g:-bsAAOSwy6la64Jz
> 
> ...


Thank you for clarifying. It gets a bit difficult to disseminate what variants are the military spec or anecdotal legend. 

They are all getting expensive! 

Too fun.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 29, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Thank you for clarifying. It gets a bit difficult to disseminate what variants are the military spec or anecdotal legend.
> 
> They are all getting expensive!
> 
> Too fun.


Tell me about it, friends and I put together over 1500 6sn7 tubes and equivalents starting a couple years ago and we spent over $50k, the same tubes now would be closer to $90k if you can find them. Many top tubes were already owned by 16 of us and those were not counted in the $50k thus our average was pretty low. We also bought four or five collections so that kept the prices down some. There were also some pretty crappy, cheap tubes in the mix since we wanted to blind test anything made.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> Tell me about it, friends and I put together over 1500 6sn7 tubes and equivalents starting a couple years ago and we spent over $50k, the same tubes now would be closer to $90k if you can find them. Many top tubes were already owned by 16 of us and those were not counted in the $50k thus our average was pretty low. We also bought four or five collections so that kept the prices down some. There were also some pretty crappy, cheap tubes in the mix since we wanted to blind test anything made.


I shouldn't have invested in crypto.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Tell me about it, friends and I put together over 1500 6sn7 tubes and equivalents starting a couple years ago and we spent over $50k, the same tubes now would be closer to $90k if you can find them. Many top tubes were already owned by 16 of us and those were not counted in the $50k thus our average was pretty low. We also bought four or five collections so that kept the prices down some. *There were also some pretty crappy, cheap tubes in the mix since we wanted to blind test anything made.*


So you included all of @Ripper2860 's tubes too?  I did not know that.  😂


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 29, 2022)

bcowen said:


> So you included all of @Ripper2860 's tubes too?  I did not know that.  😂


The fact that you refused to refund my money after selling me those tubes ranks as 3rd on my 'Why I dislike @bcowen' list.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The fact that you refused to refund my money after selling me those tubes ranks as 3rd on my 'Why I dislike @bcowen' list.


3rd?  I thought that would be trivial enough to rank around 16 or 17.  😶‍🌫️


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> 3rd? I thought that would be trivial enough to rank around 16 or 17. 😶‍🌫️



It's 3rd from the BOTTOM...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The local news showed a *Tube *Lion with checkout lines wrapping all the way down and around the aisles. I find it rather *encouraging*.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> It's 3rd from the BOTTOM...


…of a list of three…😳…


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 29, 2022)

As if.  🙄

I will not reveal the extent of the list as it would only serve to feed @bcowen's morbid curiosity.


----------



## lokerola

paradoxper said:


> These suckers are transformative allowing the Freya + to flex with air and sweetness very hard to find in balance across many amplifiers. I may go as far to say my favorite audio purchase since the dawn of the DIY T2 with an appreciable step up in musical enjoyment. I recommend pairing with either RCA smoke or the VT231 to maintain a bit more body.



Those are good looking tubes. Uh...what are they? I can't make out the make and model from the Russian paperwork.


----------



## Ripper2860

Those are Russian Melz 1578 perforated plates tubes.  And they are something else.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Nope, not for me.  We got maybe 1/2" of snow that has pretty much all melted off now. But as per usual, the grocery stores were stripped clean last night with everyone preparing to be snowed in for 3 months.  The local news showed a Food Lion with checkout lines wrapping all the way down and around the aisles. I find it rather amusing.


Slightly farther south than Bill (eastern Carolina),... just a dusting. Snow gone by mid-morning.

Very cold (for us, 19F) tonight.

Made a fantastic pot of chili using pulled pork, with a smoked pork picnik shoulder, slow cooked, and pulled for the meat. Very good with a fresh loaf of machine made bread and a nice arugula salad with a vinaigrette dressing.

Bad times almost everywhere. Having some of the best times of my life.


----------



## Paladin79

cgb3 said:


> Slightly farther south than Bill (eastern Carolina),... just a dusting. Snow gone by mid-morning.
> 
> Very cold (for us, 19F) tonight.
> 
> ...


Sounds like interesting chili. I grew up with a traditional chili, then there is chili con carne, and chili con carne with beans. When I got to Indiana a lot of the locals added spaghetti or other pasta which I grew up knowing as chili mac.

I cannot make out the dates on the aforementioned Melz 1578's but if those are 1959's or so that is an excellent year. The sound varies a lot with date of manufacture, they were manufactured for over four decades. The early ones are well balanced across the entire sound spectrum and are my favorites, those from the seventies and eighties have very pronounced midrange IMHO. No sense going into the variations if some of you are just now discovering the normal internals.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> Sounds like interesting chili. I grew up with a traditional chili, then there is chili con carne, and chili con carne with beans. When I got to Indiana a lot of the locals added spaghetti or other pasta which I grew up knowing as chili mac.
> 
> I cannot make out the dates on the aforementioned Melz 1578's but if those are 1959's or so that is an excellent year. The sound varies a lot with date of manufacture, they were manufactured for over four decades. The early ones are well balanced across the entire sound spectrum and are my favorites, those from the seventies and eighties have very pronounced midrange IMHO. No sense going into the variations if some of you are just now discovering the normal internals.


They are indeed 1959 and I am indeed scorching the internet looking for another pair. And flailing about.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> They are indeed 1959 and I am indeed scorching the internet looking for another pair. And flailing about.


The only known stockpile that remains of the 1959's is in Indiana.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> The only known stockpile that remains of the 1959's is in Indiana.


You give me a time, I'll cache up to him!


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 30, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> They are indeed 1959 and I am indeed scorching the internet looking for another pair. And flailing about.


I do not have any extras on those but if my Russian contacts find any I will grab some. I was lucky enough to order parts before some of the current developments and shipping was very costly.

 One of my favorites of the standard 1578 perforated plates is the 1961. I have found one to complete my series but have never seen another in a few years of searching lol.




Here are a couple variations, on the left is a perforated plate with oval micas, then a 1578 solid plate, no perforations. These are hard to find and may have been an aberration. On the right is a standard 1578 from 1961. Notice all have shiny black plates. I also have dull grey plate variations. As far as rankings from left to right I rate these 3,1,2. The solid plate in the center has a slightly better top end than the standard 1578. That is not just my opinion, but the opinion of seven other friends who rated 1500 tubes with me, That center solid plate rated as good or better than all tubes tested, blind, using a scoring system we developed. I have also sent that center tube type to friends on here,  @bcowen,@Ripper2860, and @sam6550a know the sound. One of the local folks doing testing with us is a fairly well known audio engineer, another is from the school of music that helped form the likes of Joshua Bell.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> I do not have any extras on those but if my Russian contacts find any I will grab some. I was lucky enough to order parts before some of the current developments and shipping was very costly.
> 
> One of my favorites of the standard 1578 perforated plates is the 1961. I have found one to complete my series but have never seen another in a few years of searching lol.


Just date codes, no structural changes to indicate between-year-production?


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Just date codes, no structural changes to indicate between-year-production?


There are structural changes in the same year tubes. I have the three tubes shown from 1954, I also have plenty of 1958 solid as well as perforated plate 1578's. I do own the perforated plate 1578 from 1954 to something like 1987 and there are difference in the sound of what look like identical tubes. In my testing, using amps I designed. The three guys on here I just mentioned all own that very same amp with slight variations. 

I get the impression the Melz factory may have run out of perforated plates and made a few solid plate variations since that is an earlier plate design. 

Some of these years are becoming really hard to find and often go for $150 up so figure about $6,000 retail to match my collection, if you can find them.  My hobby pays for itself so I tend to have zero investment.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> There are structural changes in the same year tubes. I have the three tubes shown from 1954, I also have plenty of 1958 solid as well as perforated plate 1578's. I do own the perforated plate 1578 from 1954 to something like 1987 and there are difference in the sound of what look like identical tubes. In my testing, using amps I designed. The three guys on here I just mentioned all own that very same amp with slight variations.
> 
> I get the impression the Melz factory may have run out of perforated plates and made a few solid plate variations since that is an earlier plate design.
> 
> Some of these years are becoming really hard to find and often go for $150 up so figure about $6,000 retail to match my collection, if you can find them.  My hobby pays for itself so I tend to have zero investment.


Thank you. Being so enamored with the perforated plate, I am now feeling compelled to try out the solid plate. So far no other tubes are quite as three dimensional and perfectly sweet sounding but half the fun is the incessant exploration. 

I say go for broke. It's more fun that way.


----------



## rawheadjim

These say "Melz" and 1956 dated NOS, but they don't look like any of your top pics, are they legit or not anything special?  The guy has 100% positive feedback.  I'm also very new to this and would like a decent pair for the gain stage of my Freya+, but can't afford to get burned.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264969519491?hash=item3db16a0183:g:deUAAOSw79VfsVTw


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Thank you. Being so enamored with the perforated plate, I am now feeling compelled to try out the solid plate. So far no other tubes are quite as three dimensional and perfectly sweet sounding but half the fun is the incessant exploration.
> 
> I say go for broke. It's more fun that way.




Here is an early version Melz with oval micas and top mica supports but you see the same solid plates that were used on some 1578 versions later on. This is what made me think they ran out of parts and went back to the solid plates. This tube is not that collectible and is on the same level as some of the Fotons IMHO. The Russians sellers are running out of 1578's so they try to promote other variations to the same price point. You really best know what you are doing to buy Melz or you can get burned.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254778886058?hash=item3b520147aa:g:-NAAAOSwWSxfsTC8

Same tube I just showed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/163625581724?hash=item2618d83c9c:g:sZsAAOSw9HBhK4b~

Dull grey plate, wrong upper supports, wrong mica's throughout.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 30, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> These say "Melz" and 1956 dated NOS, but they don't look like any of your top pics, are they legit or not anything special?  The guy has 100% positive feedback.  I'm also very new to this and would like a decent pair for the gain stage of my Freya+, but can't afford to get burned.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/264969519491?hash=item3db16a0183:g:deUAAOSw79VfsVTw


I posted a quad of those for $500, same seller. that particular tube I have bought for $25 or under, it is an example of the seller not having the really good Melz and trying to make a fast buck on lesser ones at $130 each. Caveat Emptor.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255340583415?hash=item3b737c19f7:g:0BgAAOSw-8th6BC-

These have the look of real solid plate 1578 type tubes that are pretty rare. At $180 this guy has really raised his prices. I bought some for much less from the same seller. I have never been a fan of the sloppy white lettered 1578 stamped on the tubes. I suspect that was done for American buyers, it means the two triodes are well balanced but Melz like Fotons exhibit great balance anyway.


----------



## rawheadjim

Wow...I need to create a spreadsheet for all of these variations and save some pictures for reference.  I also need to get through this entire thread before buying any more tubes, thanks again.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> Here is an early version Melz with oval micas and top mica supports but you see the same solid plates that were used on some 1578 versions later on. This is what made me think they ran out of parts and went back to the solid plates. This tube is not that collectible and is on the same level as some of the Fotons IMHO. The Russians sellers are running out of 1578's so they try to promote other variations to the same price point. You really best know what you are doing to buy Melz or you can get burned.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254778886058?hash=item3b520147aa:g:-NAAAOSwWSxfsTC8
> 
> ...


The Russians need to get with Sophia Electric and really learn how to market a product. 

Do you feel there is any other bespoke tube equivalent to the MELZ 1578 perforated?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 30, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> Wow...I need to create a spreadsheet for all of these variations and save some pictures for reference.  I also need to get through this entire thread before buying any more tubes, thanks again.


Not a problem, I no longer run a local audiophile group but one day when Covid lets up we will finish our final tests on over 1500 6sn7's and the work will be published as far as I know.

 We also assembled all of the equivalent audio equipment shown in the Bosch TV series and our impressions should be included as well. That was a less serious experiment.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> The Russians need to get with Sophia Electric and really learn how to market a product.
> 
> Do you feel there is any other bespoke tube equivalent to the MELZ 1578 perforated?


The Melz tubes are no longer made and many of the good ones are 60 years old. Sophia is a new brand. 

That is a tough one, I will check my group's results and see what matches up the best, we have not done our final testing on the top 52 with a large group. We rate on 25 criteria so it is rare for a tube to rate high across the board like some Melz. When you start talking to individuals some might like more bass or upper bass or strong mids etc. Put that same tube through our tests with specific music recorded to show off different traits and it might score strong in just a few areas. Having heard the 1959's, is anything really lacking? It should not be lol. 

Oh and we used four identical headphone amps with Senn HD800 headphones, Tung Sol 5998 power tubes, all levels were carefully matched. I cannot tell as much about a tube in most speaker systems but that is just me. Try doing that with a large group (I believe in the accuracy of large numbers of people) and it is tough to get many folks in the sweet spot for the speakers.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> The Melz tubes are no longer made and many of the good ones are 60 years old. Sophia is a new brand.
> 
> That is a tough one, I will check my group's results and see what matches up the best, we have not done our final testing on the top 52 with a large group. We rate on 25 criteria so it is rare for a tube to rate high across the board like some Melz. When you start talking to individuals some might like more bass or upper bass or strong mids etc. Put that same tube through our tests with specific music recorded to show off different traits and it might score strong in just a few areas. Having heard the 1959's, is anything really lacking? It should not be lol.
> 
> Oh and we used four identical headphone amps with Senn HD800 headphones, Tung Sol 5998 power tubes, all levels were carefully matched. I cannot tell as much about a tube in most speaker systems but that is just me. Try doing that with a large group (I believe in the accuracy of large numbers of people) and it is tough to get many folks in the sweet spot for the speakers.


Yes, Sophia also cherry picks and rebrands. 

Please let me know. I'd say the only splitting hairs with the MELZ is they can be a little soft sounding, but not too soft in the overall balanced scheme of things. I was curious if you may throw out some obscure Sylvania.


----------



## Ripper2860

I found this helpful in my early Melz 1578 endeavors...




The desirable solid plate has all the same characteristics as the legit perforated plate 1578 except the plates are solid.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Yes, Sophia also cherry picks and rebrands.
> 
> Please let me know. I'd say the only splitting hairs with the MELZ is they can be a little soft sounding, but not too soft in the overall balanced scheme of things. I was curious if you may throw out some obscure Sylvania.


A tube you should hear if you get a chance is the RFT 6sn7, made in East Germany, it tested with most of the same traits as the solid plate Melz 1578. (perforated plates were so similar we did not include all the variations, as was the case with many variations of brands.)

Things like soft sounding are hard for me to wrap my brain around, my background is in science as it is with many local friends. Equipment is a factor and there are plenty of headphone amps out there in which I would be hard pressed to tell much difference in 50 of our top rated tubes. If you are using speakers, what brand, how well is the room set up, what pre-amp, what DAC? In our tests we had already done DAC tests and we used the very top DAC we liked coupled with my headphone amps. Some of you may be familiar with the Aqua La Voce S3 DAC, it is what my group chose to use.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> A tube you should hear if you get a chance is the RFT 6sn7, made in East Germany, it tested with most of the same traits as the solid plate Melz 1578. (perforated plates were so similar we did not include all the variations, as was the case with many variations of brands.)
> 
> Things like soft sounding are hard for me to wrap my brain around, my background is in science as it is with many local friends. Equipment is a factor and there are plenty of headphone amps out there in which I would be hard pressed to tell much difference in 50 of our top rated tubes. If you are using speakers, what brand, how well is the room set up, what pre-amp, what DAC? In our tests we had already done DAC tests and we used the very top DAC we liked coupled with my headphone amps. Some of you may be familiar with the Aqua La Voce S3 DAC, it is what my group chose to use.


Would the foil getter ceramic plates qualify as the desirable in this RFT variant?

For me, soft would present as overtly rounded in the upper mid to upper treble range and express a little too much bloom in the bass.
But yes, encompassing balance of all components is a key factor.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 30, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Would the foil getter ceramic plates qualify as the desirable in this RFT variant?
> 
> For me, soft would present as overtly rounded in the upper mid to upper treble range and express a little too much bloom in the bass.
> But yes, encompassing balance of all components is a key factor.


That would be the RFT.

My reaction to Melz is very different but I am using different equipment. I felt like many headphones I used had a ceiling that held back tubes like Melz, HD 800’s are very descriptive but my favorite are Focal Utopias. The treble just climbs higher and higher and then slowly disappears. Most folks I know describe the accuracy of the Melz bass without bloom or muddiness.  I listen to many forms of music and have around 65,000 albums in my personal collection but for testing my friends and I use music that breaks down the whole spectrum quite well. Chesky did that with 8 elements as I recall, we use 25. The music was recorded for our testing and is not available for general consumption. Some of the folks who performed are among our test subjects.

 If a Melz performed for us as described I doubt it would score above 75 points. It is in the high 90’s.

I should also mention I modified my amp design to keep up with the high frequency capabilities of the Melz. I just shipped a loaner amp to a friend in Texas and I included 2 Melz tubes.😜


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> That would be the RFT.
> 
> My reaction to Melz is very different but I am using different equipment. I felt like many headphones I used had a ceiling that held back tubes like Melz, HD 800’s are very descriptive but my favorite are Focal Utopias. The treble just climbs higher and higher and then slowly disappears. Most folks I know describe the accuracy of the Melz bass without bloom or muddiness.  I listen to many forms of music and have around 65,000 albums in my personal collection but for testing my friends and I use music that breaks down the whole spectrum quite well. Chesky did that with 8 elements as I recall, we use 25. The music was recorded for our testing and is not available for general consumption. Some of the folks who performed are among our test subjects.
> 
> If a Melz performed for us as described I doubt it would score above 75 points. It is in the high 90’s.


Ok. I'm on the hunt!

I Primarily favor the 1266 TC which you can't really highlight a soft bass response so it's not too much of a differentiated issue between tubes but the way the MELZ 1578 expresses air and decay is decisively unique and taps into that magic place of listening. 

If there's more than MELZ, I'm all for it. If not, damn if I don't try!


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Ok. I'm on the hunt!
> 
> I Primarily favor the 1266 TC which you can't really highlight a soft bass response so it's not too much of a differentiated issue between tubes but the way the MELZ 1578 expresses air and decay is decisively unique and taps into that magic place of listening.
> 
> If there's more than MELZ, I'm all for it. If not, damn if I don't try!


There are plenty of tubes around including 6sn7 equivalents. I have spent more time with Melz than anyone in my group, some specialize in Brimar, GEC, Sylvania, etc. All of our testing is done blind to eliminate expectation bias. No one knows if they are about to hear a $20 tube or a $2,000 tube. Even with eight of us doing selections the final 52 top tubes will be judged by 100 folks or more. I really hate to say I think this or I think that so I seek multiple testers and opinions. Plenty of folks want to argue methodology but this is a system I like.😜

Want to spend the money and do your own testing? Go for it.😎


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> There are plenty of tubes around including 6sn7 equivalents. I have spent more time with Melz than anyone in my group, some specialize in Brimar, GEC, Sylvania, etc. All of our testing is done blind to eliminate expectation bias. No one knows if they are about to hear a $20 tube or a $2,000 tube. Even with eight of us doing selections the final 52 top tubes will be judged by 100 folks or more. I really hate to say I think this or I think that so I seek multiple testers and opinions. Plenty of folks want to argue methodology but this is a system I like.😜
> 
> Want to spend the money and do your own testing? Go for it.😎


Ha. These are all $10 tubes that inflated to the heavens. I will test any tube my heart desires for the end result of my pleasures. We are way past evaluating costs in this game. But I appreciate the anecdotes and you're clearly more seasoned with tubes so it helps narrow choices down more succinctly.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 30, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> These say "Melz" and 1956 dated NOS, but they don't look like any of your top pics, are they legit or not anything special?  The guy has 100% positive feedback.  I'm also very new to this and would like a decent pair for the gain stage of my Freya+, but can't afford to get burned.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/264969519491?hash=item3db16a0183:g:deUAAOSw79VfsVTw


Those are not 1578's.  That seller has several listings where he's asking 1578 prices for standard 6N8S tubes.  With a 14777 feedback tally, it's not like he doesn't know what he's looking at.  Blacklisted for me...he's obviously a charlatan or a fraud or both.  If you're going to buy tubes on Ebay, it's important to learn and know the sellers to avoid.  There are very many good sellers, but there are some that are anything but (and this is one of them).

Another of his current listings:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254779019594?hash=item3b5203514a:g:aA4AAOSw53FfsVST


----------



## paradoxper

Bah. as I was going to pick up some RFT's, I found a few more pair of 1578's. I'm helpless...


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> Bah. as I was going to pick up some RFT's, I found a few more pair of 1578's. I'm helpless...


Why not get both?  The RFT's are pretty cheap.  LOL!!!


----------



## mourip

paradoxper said:


> These are all $10 tubes that inflated to the heavens.


Interesting idea...

My wife is a realtor. She always says that a house is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

Since the best sounding NOS tubes are getting scarce, and new production tubes are mostly(not always) a pale reflection of NOS, then "what they are worth" will keep increasing.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> Why not get both?  The RFT's are pretty cheap.  LOL!!!


That wasn't a question. Of course I did with two pairs of the MELZ. I felt greedy asking for more but just may.


----------



## paradoxper

mourip said:


> Interesting idea...
> 
> My wife is a realtor. She always says that a house is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
> 
> Since the best sounding NOS tubes are getting scarce, and new production tubes are mostly(not always) a pale reflection of NOS, then "what they are worth" will keep increasing.


I think that's called good business.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Ha. These are all $10 tubes that inflated to the heavens. I will test any tube my heart desires for the end result of my pleasures. We are way past evaluating costs in this game. But I appreciate the anecdotes and you're clearly more seasoned with tubes so it helps narrow choices down more succinctly.


At the end of the day it is what you enjoy with your gear and your music. @bcowen got me interested in a person's ability to differentiate between 6sn7's in blind testing. I probably spent $1,000 to win a steak dinner with bottle of wine. I did go to a steakhouse here in town where Mellencamp took Billy Joel so there is that.   

After a few such blind tests I was able to talk local friends into doing this on a large scale. (most have deep pockets and quality gear.)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> At the end of the day it is what you enjoy with your gear and your music. @bcowen got me interested in a person's ability to differentiate between 6sn7's in blind testing. I probably spent $1,000 to win a steak dinner with bottle of wine. I did go to a steakhouse here in town where Mellencamp took Billy Joel so there is that.
> 
> After a few such blind tests I was able to talk local friends into doing this on a large scale. (most have deep pockets and quality gear.)


You got bragging rights too, so there's also that.  🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

mourip said:


> Interesting idea...
> 
> My wife is a realtor. She always says that a house is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
> 
> Since the best sounding NOS tubes are getting scarce, and new production tubes are mostly(not always) a pale reflection of NOS, then "what they are worth" will keep increasing.


My wife was also a realtor at one point in her career. Anything is worth what a person is willing to pay for it but part of my past testing proved that a group of people might like a $500 DAC over those costing $3,000-4,000. The same holds true with tubes. There is a lot of marketing and mystique that goes into some tubes, Bad Boys, Black Glass Round Plate Tung Sols, etc. When you do not know the name of a tube or the price, that is when you learn what you really like IMHO.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bcowen said:


> Why not get both?  The RFT's are pretty cheap.  LOL!!!



This is cartago_delenda_est. He basically takes the already inflated prices of today and multiplies them by 4. On everything. Then he adds 50 eur shipping for good measure, even if it's just over the border. If you happen to ask for a reasonable price, he never responds and bans you from buying. (not that one would at those prices)


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You got bragging rights too, so there's also that.  🤣🤣


And I collected a lot of GE tubes that are already willed to you if that particular codicil holds up in court.


----------



## Paladin79

CaptainFantastic said:


> This is cartago_delenda_est. He basically takes the already inflated prices of today and multiplies them by 4. On everything. Then he adds 50 eur shipping for good measure, even if it's just over the border. If you happen to ask for a reasonable price, he never responds and bans you from buying. (not that one would at those prices)


It has been a while since I bought any RFT's but many were around $100 each as I recall.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> At the end of the day it is what you enjoy with your gear and your music. @bcowen got me interested in a person's ability to differentiate between 6sn7's in blind testing. I probably spent $1,000 to win a steak dinner with bottle of wine. I did go to a steakhouse here in town where Mellencamp took Billy Joel so there is that.
> 
> After a few such blind tests I was able to talk local friends into doing this on a large scale. (most have deep pockets and quality gear.)


Ah, all that charity bribed with meat!


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Ah, all that charity bribed with meat!


The bet was Mr. Cowen's idea but the thing is, he knows tubes and had the courage to take on the bet.  Often when folks make claims, I say "great, show me!" Generally folks either fail badly or I hear a wide range of excuses.   
 He is one of the few who came very close to proving his abilities. I had to listen to some pretty bad tubes trying to find one that matched up with a GE lol.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> The bet was Mr. Cowen's idea but the thing is, he knows tubes and had the courage to take on the bet.  Often when folks make claims, I say "great, show me!" Generally folks either fail badly or I hear a wide range of excuses.
> He is one of the few who came very close to proving his abilities. I had to listen to some pretty bad tubes trying to find one that matched up with a GE lol.


Oh man, I've done my fair share of blind testing output transistors and it is, well, ***** soul sucking. Ha. Kudos to the driveand camaraderie!


----------



## mourip

Paladin79 said:


> My wife was also a realtor at one point in her career. Anything is worth what a person is willing to pay for it but part of my past testing proved that a group of people might like a $500 DAC over those costing $3,000-4,000. The same holds true with tubes. There is a lot of marketing and mystique that goes into some tubes, Bad Boys, Black Glass Round Plate Tung Sols, etc. When you do not know the name of a tube or the price, that is when you learn what you really like IMHO.


Good point. Some expensive tubes get consistently good marks by many and are also good sounding. Some are overrated due to hype. Some are overlooked and are cheap. 

I am currently rolling a bunch of 6SN7s and 12SN7s in my Lampizator Baltic 3 DAC. I own some of the fabled versions but so far I like a pair of $80/pr 6SN7WGT's the best. I also like 7N7/14N7's which are inexpensive and often overlooked.


----------



## jonathan c (Jan 30, 2022)

CaptainFantastic said:


> This is cartago_delenda_est. He basically takes the already inflated prices of today and multiplies them by 4. On everything. Then he adds 50 eur shipping for good measure, even if it's just over the border. If you happen to ask for a reasonable price, he never responds and bans you from buying. (not that one would at those prices)


If it were ‘carthago delenda est’, that is Latin for ‘Carthage must be destroyed’ (speech ending by Cato). I can only guess that the meaning is “wallets must be destroyed”. 😳 (or Cartago in Costa Rica ?!?)


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 30, 2022)

mourip said:


> Good point. Some expensive tubes get consistently good marks by many and are also good sounding. Some are overrated due to hype. Some are overlooked and are cheap.
> 
> I am currently rolling a bunch of 6SN7s and 12SN7s in my Lampizator Baltic 3 DAC. I own some of the fabled versions but so far I like a pair of $80/pr 6SN7WGT's the best. I also like 7N7/14N7's which are inexpensive and often overlooked.


I have worked my way though a lot of single triode tubes as well as Loktals. 7A4's are loktal single triode tubes that are fun to play around with. I came across those in some of my tube manuals so I had to give them a try.

I admit I had to look up the Lampizator but it looks very interesting. I run tubes throughout my gear except for the DAC at this moment so I am always on the the lookout for tube DAC's. Anyone sell them in the D.C. area? Some high end audio gear used to be in the Tyson's Corner area but the same store was not there on my last visit.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Oh man, I've done my fair share of blind testing output transistors and it is, well, ***** soul sucking. Ha. Kudos to the driveand camaraderie!


The final testing could easily take three days but we have a party after, it would be a great time to break out some 28% ABV beer that is illegal in 15 states lol. This is meant to be shared.😜


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
The tubes alone do not always make the difference.
I have two amplifiers that are completely different.
One is the Feliks Euforia and the other is a self-built hybrid amplifier where both use 6SN7 and I sometimes hear significant differences where the Euforia is better or worse than the hybrid amplifier and vice versa.

The other side is that on the Euforia I exchanged the standard Mundorf capacitors for Vcaps TFTF and experienced a real change where "lesser" 6SN7s really blossomed and were partly better than the cheaper tubes that can be found/obtained on the market.

Since then, I have personally become more cautious with such statements.
Especially the Euforia sounded better with tubes that didn't even cost 100$.
And that was just the 6SN7 socket, the 6AS7G socket is currently being processed in terms of caps replacement.

What I want to say is that such work can also help the amplifier. without wanting to dig too deep now.
And if a system is well-built, it contributes just as well to the cause.

I'm currently listening to the Little Dot 1+ in my bedroom again after a long time and have the feeling that it's an air pump.
Compared to the other 2 amplifiers in the media room.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have worked my way though a lot of single triode tubes as well as Loktals. 7A4's are loktal single triode tubes that are fun to play around with. I came across those in some of my tube manuals so I had to give them a try.
> 
> I admit I had to look up the Lampizator but it looks very interesting. I run tubes throughout my gear except for the DAC at this moment so I am always on the the lookout for tube DAC's. Anyone sell them in the D.C. area? Some high end audio gear used to be in the Tyson's Corner area but the same store was not there on my last visit.


Lots of fun to be had with the single triodes, assuming there is room/clearance in the component to handle an adapter.  An added benefit is that most are significantly less expensive than their 6SN7 counterparts (even x2) due to less demand from the audio/guitar amp communities. 

*Lansdale (branded) 6C4's:*





*Tung Sol 6J5's (straight bottle):*




*GEC L63's:*



*
Tung Sol 6L5's:*



*
Hytron 7A4's:*




*Tung Sol 6J5's (ST bottle):*




*KenRad 6C5's:*




*National Union and KenRad 7193's:*


----------



## cgb3

Paladin79 said:


> Not a problem, I no longer run a local audiophile group but one day when Covid lets up we will finish our final tests on over 1500 6sn7's and the work will be published as far as I know.
> 
> We also assembled all of the equivalent audio equipment shown in the Bosch TV series and our impressions should be included as well. That was a less serious experiment.


You're a true treasure. Long may you run.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> Lots of fun to be had with the single triodes, assuming there is room/clearance in the component to handle an adapter.  An added benefit is that most are significantly less expensive than their 6SN7 counterparts (even x2) due to less demand from the audio/guitar amp communities.
> 
> *Lansdale (branded) 6C4's:*
> 
> ...


Yea, I smoked a cigarette after looking at this. Note, I haven't smoked in 22 years.


----------



## cgb3

Very nice essay from 2009 discussing Chinese tubes vs Western standards.

5,000+ words, lots of tech.  I have the "magic" Chinese tube discussed (along with most of the Western tubes) in my inventory. I'm now running the PSVayne "lightbulb" (I payed about 1/2 that price).


----------



## Mr Trev

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> The tubes alone do not always make the difference.
> I have two amplifiers that are completely different.
> One is the Feliks Euforia and the other is a self-built hybrid amplifier where both use 6SN7 and I sometimes hear significant differences where the Euforia is better or worse than the hybrid amplifier and vice versa.
> ...


Self built hybrid?? Need more info


----------



## Isaacc7

My preamp can use either 6sn7 or 12sn7. I could also use some adapters and use 6j5/12j5. I have a good selection of American tubes but the European ones have gone out of my budget range. Did any of the European makers, including Russian, make 12v versions? I'm not having any luck finding any which makes me think they didn't. Was there a single triode version of the sought after Melz 6sn7?


----------



## Paladin79

Isaacc7 said:


> My preamp can use either 6sn7 or 12sn7. I could also use some adapters and use 6j5/12j5. I have a good selection of American tubes but the European ones have gone out of my budget range. Did any of the European makers, including Russian, make 12v versions? I'm not having any luck finding any which makes me think they didn't. Was there a single triode version of the sought after Melz 6sn7?


I am not aware of either.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> My preamp can use either 6sn7 or 12sn7. I could also use some adapters and use 6j5/12j5. I have a good selection of American tubes but the European ones have gone out of my budget range. Did any of the European makers, including Russian, make 12v versions? I'm not having any luck finding any which makes me think they didn't. Was there a single triode version of the sought after Melz 6sn7?


The Russian equivalent to the 6J5 is the 6S2S (or 6C2C), but I've only seen them with Nevz and Novosibirsk factory identifiers. Doesn't mean Melz _didn't_ make them, just that I've never seen any up for sale.


----------



## mourip (Jan 30, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> I have worked my way though a lot of single triode tubes as well as Loktals. 7A4's are loktal single triode tubes that are fun to play around with. I came across those in some of my tube manuals so I had to give them a try.
> 
> I admit I had to look up the Lampizator but it looks very interesting. I run tubes throughout my gear except for the DAC at this moment so I am always on the the lookout for tube DAC's. Anyone sell them in the D.C. area? Some high end audio gear used to be in the Tyson's Corner area but the same store was not there on my last visit.


We are very short on good audiophile shops in the DC area these days. I ordered my Lampizator through the distributor who is in New Jersey. I am however very close to the Linear Tube Audio shop and they have a Baltic 3 to demo their great gear. They are the company that now makes a lot of the David Berning designed equipment. Think Microzotl.

The Baltic is basically an end game DAC for me. Plus I get to tube roll!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Isaacc7 said:


> My preamp can use either 6sn7 or 12sn7. I could also use some adapters and use 6j5/12j5. I have a good selection of American tubes but the European ones have gone out of my budget range. Did any of the European makers, including Russian, make 12v versions? I'm not having any luck finding any which makes me think they didn't. Was there a single triode version of the sought after Melz 6sn7?



Fivre made some 12SN7GT.



Then there is the GEC B36 (12SN7), expensive.



Also came across some Sicte 12J5 a while back, but that is an oddball.



I'm sure there are others.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I have worked my way though a lot of single triode tubes as well as Loktals. 7A4's are loktal single triode tubes that are fun to play around with. I came across those in some of my tube manuals so I had to give them a try.
> 
> I admit I had to look up the Lampizator but it looks very interesting. I run tubes throughout my gear except for the DAC at this moment so I am always on the the lookout for tube DAC's. Anyone sell them in the D.C. area? Some high end audio gear used to be in the Tyson's Corner area but the same store was not there on my last visit.


Have you looked into MHDT Labs? Their DACs are typically non-over-sampling / R2R topology with tube buffering. The DAC by Border Patrol uses tube rectification in its power supply.


----------



## musicman59

cgb3 said:


> Yea, I smoked a cigarette after looking at this. Note, I haven't smoked in 22 years.


I put down my last cigarette in October 1986 and nothing will make me pick up another one….


----------



## jonathan c

musicman59 said:


> I put *in *my last *GE tube *in October 1986 and nothing will make *try *another one….


…two bad habits gone?…🤣


----------



## David222

Paladin79 said:


> I have worked my way though a lot of single triode tubes as well as Loktals. 7A4's are loktal single triode tubes that are fun to play around with. I came across those in some of my tube manuals so I had to give them a try.
> 
> I admit I had to look up the Lampizator but it looks very interesting. I run tubes throughout my gear except for the DAC at this moment so I am always on the the lookout for tube DAC's. Anyone sell them in the D.C. area? Some high end audio gear used to be in the Tyson's Corner area but the same store was not there on my last visit.



+ 1 to @jonathan c  post above. I use the MHDT Orchid with my Burson Soloist 3XP.  Really enjoy this Tube/DAC.  At first, I was rolling WE2C51 (good)... recently got into Mullard CV4108 / 7308 (great). The Linear Tube Audio guys sell them (Maryland based).  I've read the MHDT Pagoda (balanced) is more resolving vs. Orchid. My understanding is the Orchid presents slightly more warm/full body sound, which is of course, influenced by the tube.  I considered Border Patrol (prior to Orchid) but ultimately went with Orchid as it can be heavily influenced by tube rolling, whereas the BP cannot.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Paladin79 said:


> I admit I had to look up the Lampizator but it looks very interesting. I run tubes throughout my gear except for the DAC at this moment so I am always on the the lookout for tube DAC's. Anyone sell them in the D.C. area? Some high end audio gear used to be in the Tyson's Corner area but the same store was not there on my last visit.





jonathan c said:


> Have you looked into MHDT Labs? Their DACs are typically non-over-sampling / R2R topology with tube buffering. The DAC by Border Patrol uses tube rectification in its power supply.



I would avoid Border Patrol, not the best vintage R2R implementation, just my opinion of course.  The Lampizator Amber 3 sounded pretty good to me when I had it on loan, and other Head-Fiers really like the higher end Lampi stuff, but they are pricey.  SW1X Audio Design is another tube NOS R2R outfit, but their DACs have noise floor issues that make them borderline unusable for headphones.

Or you can design your own!


----------



## musicman59

jonathan c said:


> …two bad habits gone?…🤣


Ha ha ha!!! Good one!!!! Ha ha ha


----------



## Paladin79

mourip said:


> We are very short on good audiophile shops in the DC area these days. I ordered my Lampizator through the distributor who is in New Jersey. I am however very close to the Linear Tube Audio shop and they have a Baltic 3 to demo their great gear. They are the company that now makes a lot of the David Berning designed equipment. Think Microzotl.
> 
> The Baltic is basically an end game DAC for me. Plus I get to tube roll!


I am well aware of Berning’s work and have spoken to him and some of the folks at Linear Tube Audio. Being a member of the trade never hurts lol. 
I will get there one day to visit.


----------



## Paladin79

L0rdGwyn said:


> I would avoid Border Patrol, not the best vintage R2R implementation, just my opinion of course.  The Lampizator Amber 3 sounded pretty good to me when I had it on loan, and other Head-Fiers really like the higher end Lampi stuff, but they are pricey.  SW1X Audio Design is another tube NOS R2R outfit, but their DACs have noise floor issues that make them borderline unusable for headphones.
> 
> Or you can design your own!


My local group and I did a pretty thorough study of DAC’s but that was a few years ago, we looked at 20 brands but there are always new products to examine. Just having 20 in the $500 to $6,000 range gave some excellent incites. Blind testing, with music recorded for the event.😜


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> I would avoid Border Patrol, not the best vintage R2R implementation, just my opinion of course.  The Lampizator Amber 3 sounded pretty good to me when I had it on loan, and other Head-Fiers really like the higher end Lampi stuff, but they are pricey.  SW1X Audio Design is another tube NOS R2R outfit, but their DACs have noise floor issues that make them borderline unusable for headphones.
> 
> Or you can design your own!


I'm just waiting for you to come out with a kit.   

The Cary Audio DAC-100t I use in my big rig has a pair of 6922's in the output stage. Used only as buffers AFAIK.  I can hear differences with tubes, but not to the same extent I do with HP amps.

(older photo -- the 25 y/o Cary CD player above it has tubes too. Still works, but lacks resolution compared to modern stuff)


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'm just waiting for you to come out with a kit.
> 
> The Cary Audio DAC-100t I use in my big rig has a pair of 6922's in the output stage. Used only as buffers AFAIK.  I can hear differences with tubes, but not to the same extent I do with HP amps.
> 
> (older photo -- the 25 y/o Cary CD player above it has tubes too. Still works, but lacks resolution compared to modern stuff)


Did you say, a while back, that one of your Carys came with Philips ECG as stock tubes 😱😳🤬…?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Did you say, a while back, that one of your Carys came with Philips ECG as stock tubes 😱😳🤬…?


Yes, can't remember which component though.  IIRC, the DAC came with Electro Harmonix 6922's.  Have some early '60's Tungsram 6922's in there now that I like quite a bit.


----------



## David222 (Feb 1, 2022)

I hope you gents don't mind my sharing a small project indirectly related to 6SN7s.  As my (newbie) tube collection has quickly grown and as a history buff, I've landed upon this vintage crate for storage. I acquired via estate sale in New Hampshire. The Newspaper inside is dated 1934. I believe American Biscuit is the predecessor to Nabisco.  Unfortunately, there were no cookies left inside 

I normally would not sand (and soon stain) such an old piece - but I want to bring it back up to a certain spec... before storing tubes, etc. and inside the house.

Below is a quote from one of the townspeople that captures perspective as the seasons changed from summer into fall:

_"We can hardly realize that summer has gone, when the warm sunshine tempts us out of doors these bright days. The more hardy blossoms seem to spread themselves in rich profusion to make up for the few that have been destroyed by the frost. But we miss the presence of our summer friends, and the streets - so empty of children remind us that vacation is over and everyone is settled down to fall work." _

Apologies again for distracting from the standard course of business on this thread. I was getting into my (tube storage) project and just wanted to share.

P.S. ---> My not so great Melz may not make the box


----------



## TLO

David222 said:


> I hope you gents don't mind my sharing a small project indirectly related to 6SN7s.  As my (newbie) tube collection has quickly grown and as a history buff, I've landed upon this vintage crate for storage. I acquired via estate sale in New Hampshire. The Newspaper inside is dated 1934. I believe American Biscuit is the predecessor to Nabisco.  Unfortunately, there were no cookies left inside
> 
> I normally would not sand (and soon stain) such an old piece - but I want to bring it back up to a certain spec... before storing tubes, etc. and inside the house.
> 
> ...


Initially, I have been looking at cigar boxes for my tube collection but couldnt really find anything useful. Most of them are just too shallow or too small. I ended up buying 4 Blake & Lake oak boxes, which are quite expensive and not really well made at the price they are selling for but at least they have the right size for 6SN7 tubes storage.


----------



## LoryWiv

TLO said:


> Initially, I have been looking at cigar boxes for my tube collection but couldnt really find anything useful. Most of them are just too shallow or too small. I ended up buying 4 Blake & Lake oak boxes, which are quite expensive and not really well made at the price they are selling for but at least they have the right size for 6SN7 tubes storage.


Very impressive collection! They do look secure in that box. What amp do you use them in?


----------



## TLO

LoryWiv said:


> Very impressive collection! They do look secure in that box. What amp do you use them in?


Line Magnetic LM508IA.


----------



## FLTWS

I solved my storage and carrying of power and driver tubes for my PrimaLuna with this suitcase like box from Staples. The side handles make carrying easy.
I want to get several half sized ones for all my 6SN7 types and all the different 9 pins in my inventory.


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Initially, I have been looking at cigar boxes for my tube collection but couldnt really find anything useful. Most of them are just too shallow or too small. I ended up buying 4 Blake & Lake oak boxes, which are quite expensive and not really well made at the price they are selling for but at least they have the right size for 6SN7 tubes storage.


Looks like they were custom made for small octal tubes.  Nice!


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> I hope you gents don't mind my sharing a small project indirectly related to 6SN7s.  As my (newbie) tube collection has quickly grown and as a history buff, I've landed upon this vintage crate for storage. I acquired via estate sale in New Hampshire. The Newspaper inside is dated 1934. I believe American Biscuit is the predecessor to Nabisco.  Unfortunately, there were no cookies left inside
> 
> I normally would not sand (and soon stain) such an old piece - but I want to bring it back up to a certain spec... before storing tubes, etc. and inside the house.
> 
> ...


That's pretty cool.  Would love to see some pics when you get done with it.


----------



## bcowen

Then there's the tube caddy.  I got this one still sealed in the factory shipping box a number of years ago.  Hard to find them in this condition any more, but they occasionally pop up for a reasonable price.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2022)

TLO said:


> Initially, I have been looking at cigar boxes for my tube collection but couldnt really find anything useful. Most of them are just too shallow or too small. I ended up buying 4 Blake & Lake oak boxes, which are quite expensive and not really well made at the price they are selling for but at least they have the right size for 6SN7 tubes storage.


I have some Cohiba Esplendido cigar boxes but they are pretty shallow, the Toro box is much deeper. Ebay has mostly red O boxes right now, mine are all hecho en cubana. I even have some with dove tail joints, I may mount an amplifier in one sometime.

c
I had this one in my office at work. Anything with the red "O" is not the true Cuban cigar as far as I know.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have some Cohiba Esplendido cigar boxes but they are pretty shallow, the Toro box is much deeper. Ebay has mostly red O boxes right now, mine are all hecho en cubana.* I even have some with dove tail joints, I may mount an amplifier in one sometime.*


That would be pretty sweet.  Wait....they aren't maple.  Nevernind.  😂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That would be pretty sweet.  Wait....they aren't maple.  Nevernind.  😂


You get no choices!!!  Them's the rules.


----------



## TLO (Feb 1, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> I have some Cohiba Esplendido cigar boxes but they are pretty shallow, the Toro box is much deeper. Ebay has mostly red O boxes right now, mine are all hecho en cubana. I even have some with dove tail joints, I may mount an amplifier in one sometime.
> 
> c
> I had this one in my office at work. Anything with the red "O" is not the true Cuban cigar as far as I know.


What a beauty!!! I really like cigar boxes, a lot of them are really well made with the vintage or classic look. Too bad, dont have the suitable size for tubes. There is another alternative I have looked at and that is wooden boxes for wine bottle. Unfortunately, most of them are roughly or poorly made, unlike cigar boxes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2022)

TLO said:


> What a beauty!!! I really like cigar boxes, a lot of them are really well made with the vintage or classic look. Too bad, dont have the suitable size for tubes. There is another alternative I have looked at and that is wooden boxes for wine bottle. Unfortunately, most of them are roughly or poorly made, unlike cigar boxes.


I do have some suitable for tubes but they are small boxes overall. I will show another type box later today as well.

The cigars from the box in the photo used to fetch $100 each at times in the states so they deserved a nice box.😜


----------



## TLO (Feb 1, 2022)

This  one I have it custom-made in China, made of bamboo. The workmanship is top-notch


----------



## Paladin79

I use a guard cat for mine.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Paladin79 said:


> I do have some suitable for tubes but they are small boxes overall. I will show another type box later today as well.
> 
> The cigars from the box in the photo used to fetch $100 each at times in the states so they deserved a nice box.😜



And yet we are fine with receiving our $100 tubes in cheap bubble wrap or even crumpled up newspaper.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 1, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> I use a guard cat for mine.


Looks like that Tung Sol is getting ready to hit the floor.  Is this one of those "if I can't have it, nobody will" kind of things?  🧐


----------



## bcowen (Feb 1, 2022)

CaptainFantastic said:


> And yet we are fine with receiving our $100 tubes in cheap bubble wrap or even crumpled up newspaper.


LOL!  Funny you mention that...a Chatham 6AS7G I got a couple weeks ago was sent loose in a padded mailer.  How it made it here in one piece I'll never know, but it arrived totally unscathed.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Funny you mention that...a Chatham 6AS7G I got a couple weeks ago was sent loose in a padded mailer.  How it made it here in one piece I'll never know, but it arrived totally unscathed.


My favorite packing was for a couple noval tubes I recently received. They were in a graduated plastic tube with an attached end cap. There was tiny bubble wrap inside and the tubes were extremely well protected.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


>


“I’ll see you and I’ll raise you one…” (ultimate poker face…)


----------



## pravous

Sierra raises the ante.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My favorite packing was for a couple noval tubes I recently received. They were in a graduated plastic tube with an attached end cap. There was tiny bubble wrap inside and the tubes were extremely well protected.


This 4" diameter PVC pipe was my favorite so far for an IBM-branded Tung Sol 5998 (that I snagged for $100).  Small bubble wrap was wrapped around the tube 5 or 6 times inside the pipe, and the pipe itself was surrounded by firmly packed foam peanuts in a huge box that had at least 3" of clearance around all sides.  Even the USPS would have been highly challenged to screw that one up.


----------



## Paladin79

This is the cabinet style I hope to achieve with my last couple of amp builds. This one was done by a woodworker in California.


----------



## bcowen

pravous said:


> Sierra raises the ante.


ROFL!  What is it that your guy's cats have against nice 6080's?    

Or wait...a graphite plate 7802?  I've never seen one of those in the flesh.  What are you using it in?


----------



## bcowen (Feb 1, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> This is the cabinet style I hope to achieve with my last couple of amp builds. This one was done by a woodworker in California.


That's quite nice!  Not tiger maple, but maple just the same and I've never done any blind tests between tiger versus non-tiger, so it may be OK.   

 When you do mine with the dovetailed corners, can you just extend the dovetails on the corners down a bit so they work like feet too?  Shouldn't take more than a couple extra days of labor, I wouldn't think.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's quite nice!  Not tiger maple, but maple just the same and I've never done any blind tests between tiger versus non-tiger, so it may be OK.


If you go the “tiger” maple route (with @Paladin79 ‘s approval, of course), will you then _insist on _sideways stripes?…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's quite nice!  Not tiger maple, but maple just the same and I've never done any blind tests between tiger versus non-tiger, so it may be OK.
> 
> When you do mine with the dovetailed corners, can you just extend the dovetails on the corners down a bit so they work like feet too?  Shouldn't take more than a couple extra days of labor, I wouldn't think.


Add talons to the dovetails…?…


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's quite nice!  Not tiger maple, but maple just the same and I've never done any blind tests between tiger versus non-tiger, so it may be OK.
> 
> When you do mine with the dovetailed corners, can you just extend the dovetails on the corners down a bit so they work like feet too?  Shouldn't take more than a couple extra days of labor, I wouldn't think.


Your id looks vaguely familiar but I cannot place you at the moment. Are you a little old lady from Delaware?

There are a few stripes at the bottom, I have some serious tiger maple that will go into my son's cabinet. There are no dovetails in this construction technique and will not be.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If you go the “tiger” maple route (with @Paladin79 ‘s approval, of course), will you then _insist on _sideways stripes?…


What I insist on is apparently irrelevant as I'm not allowed to have any input.  Just as well though as it appears the amp would end up in Delaware, and my Norne HP cable isn't quite long enough to reach.


----------



## pravous

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  What is it that your guy's cats have against nice 6080's?
> 
> Or wait...a graphite plate 7802?  I've never seen one of those in the flesh.  What are you using it in?






Bottlehead crack at the moment, until I can find a second and then it will go in the Airmid.


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> This is the cabinet style I hope to achieve with my last couple of amp builds. This one was done by a woodworker in California.


That is one good looking amp!


----------



## CaptainFantastic

pravous said:


> Bottlehead crack at the moment, until I can find a second and then it will go in the Airmid.



Very nice. What 6J5s tubes are those? And is that a Deyan-made adapter?


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> That is one good looking amp!


Yeah imagine it with amazing tiger maple , I have plenty of exotic dark woods to choose from for the legs.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  What is it that your guy's cats have against nice 6080's?
> 
> Or wait...a graphite plate 7802?  I've never seen one of those in the flesh.  What are you using it in?



Finnegan plays with other power tubes, they are treated equally. He has some kind of 6AS7G here.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan plays with other power tubes, they are treated equally. He has some kind of 6AS7G here.


GEC...that's GE of Canada, right?


----------



## pravous

CaptainFantastic said:


> Very nice. What 6J5s tubes are those? And is that a Deyan-made adapter


Gec l63 and yes a Deyen 12au7 to dual 6j5 adaptor.


----------



## bcowen

pravous said:


> Bottlehead crack at the moment, until I can find a second and then it will go in the Airmid.


How are you liking the Airmid?


----------



## pravous

bcowen said:


> How are you liking the Airmid?


I have been having a blast with it.  I have spent the last two weeks burning in the “qualifys for bulk pricing” GEC quad that I bought from Billington as soon as I put down the deposit.  


The only problem if you can call it that is the size.  Doesn’t fit in my old listening nook so I have plans to build a custom rack for it.  



Schiit Coaster amp I built with my daughter this weekend for scale.  Amplifier version of the “you might be a redneck” tv stack


----------



## bcowen

pravous said:


> I have been having a blast with it.  I have spent the last two weeks burning in the “qualifys for bulk pricing” GEC quad that I bought from Billington as soon as I put down the deposit.
> The only problem if you can call it that is the size.  Doesn’t fit in my old listening nook so I have plans to build a custom rack for it.
> 
> Schiit Coaster amp I built with my daughter this weekend for scale.  Amplifier version of the “you might be a redneck” tv stack


Very nice.  Love the color of the Airmid!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I see we are on a "cats with tubes" kick and I am all for it.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 1, 2022)

L0rdGwyn said:


> I see we are on a "cats with tubes" kick and I am all for it.


LOL!  I only allow my cats to play with tubes that won't fit under the furniture.  🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> GEC...that's GE of Canada, right?


GE of Carolinas…


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2022)

pravous said:


> I have been having a blast with it.  I have spent the last two weeks burning in the “qualifys for bulk pricing” GEC quad that I bought from Billington as soon as I put down the deposit.
> The only problem if you can call it that is the size.  Doesn’t fit in my old listening nook so I have plans to build a custom rack for it.
> 
> Schiit Coaster amp I built with my daughter this weekend for scale.  Amplifier version of the “you might be a redneck” tv stack


@pravous did an excellent job with the Coaster amp by the way! Also pm me your address and I will gift you some relays and if you need other parts just speak up. My first couple builds had issues because the BOM and schematic had an error. I solved it for Jason and he was kind enough to give me credit in one of his chapters.

Here is a taller style cigar box I referenced earlier, Siglo VI came in this one. The beer is just there to give a sense of scale.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> @pravous did an excellent job with the Coaster amp by the way! Also pm me your address and I will gift you some relays and if you need other parts just speak up.
> 
> Here is a taller style cigar box I referenced earlier, Siglo VI came in this one. The beer is *just *there to give a sense of scale.😜


Not so fast… one can get the scale from the cup with the pens/pencils…


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Not so fast… one can get the scale from the cup with the pens/pencils…


Yeah but they do not go down quite as smooth.😜 Such convoluted logic from a man who can quote Cato.


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 1, 2022)

The Melz 1578 / 6N8S (1963) is wondrous in the Schiit Lyr 3. Deep bass without bloat, fully sculpted midrange with the right body and no ‘etch’, airy treble that just extends on & on without glare or stridency. 🎼🎵—> 😀🤪. (Not possible without @Paladin79 counsel & advice 🙏)


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Yeah but they do not go down quite as smooth.😜 Such convoluted logic from a man who can quote Cato.


He is easy to quote: he ended almost all his speeches with the same _carthago delenda est. _Ahead of his time?…think Walter Cronkite with ‘and that’s the way it is…’🤷🏻


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> GE of Carolinas…


Well, Canada is really just North North Carolina, so same difference.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> @pravous did an excellent job with the Coaster amp by the way! Also pm me your address and I will gift you some relays and if you need other parts just speak up. My first couple builds had issues because the BOM and schematic had an error. I solved it for Jason and he was kind enough to give me credit in one of his chapters.
> 
> Here is a taller style cigar box I referenced earlier, Siglo VI came in this one.* The beer is just there to give a sense of scale.*😜


The beer is there because, well, it would just be weird if it wasn't.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> He is easy to quote: he ended almost all his speeches with the same _carthago delenda est. _Ahead of his time?…think Walter Cronkite with ‘and that’s the way it is…’🤷🏻


And here I thought that was contracted from a longer speech. I spent more time translating Publius Virgilius Maro ( Virgil)


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The beer is there because, well, it would just be weird if it wasn't.


Hey if you had the day I just had you would be in a coma. The ice and snow we are about to get should have a calming effect on my week.😜


----------



## rawheadjim

Finnegan gives all new meaning to tube rolling!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hey if you had the day I just had you would be in a coma. The ice and snow we are about to get should have a calming effect on my week.😜


I ended those kind of days yesterday.  60+ hour weeks for the last 8 months and with no end in foreseeable sight are not conducive to me liking a job. I'm a free man once again.


----------



## Paladin79

rawheadjim said:


> Finnegan gives all new meaning to tube rolling!


Finnegan likes to get involved and follows me everywhere.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I ended those kind of days yesterday.  60+ hour weeks for the last 8 months and with no end in foreseeable sight are not conducive to me liking a job. I'm a free man once again.


I seriously wondered why you were online so early, I just lowered my time to 32 hours a week starting Monday. If I get down to three days a week maybe I will have time to learn dove tails.😜


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I seriously wondered why you were online so early, I just lowered my time to 32 hours a week starting Monday. If I get down to three days a week maybe I will have time to learn dove tails.😜


I'm gonna try for a 40 hour/week job....when I feel like looking again. I've never had one before and I wanted to try it just to see what it's like.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Finnegan likes to get involved and follows me everywhere.


Appears that he's_ watching_ you.  

(ugh...sorry in advance)


----------



## Pondoro

All these boxes and suitcases. I’m new, I have 16 tubes actually installed and maybe ten in cardboard boxes.  Do serious collectors take their tubes on journeys? Maybe to the shore or to a cabin in the Catskill?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm gonna try for a 40 hour/week job....when I feel like looking again. I've never had one before and I wanted to try it just to see what it's like.


Well you do have some aptitude with electronics, take a different path.😜


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'm gonna try for a 40 hour/week job....when I feel like looking again. I've never had one before and I wanted to try it just to see what it's like.


…what if it takes 40 hours/week to look…?😳


----------



## bcowen

Pondoro said:


> All these boxes and suitcases. I’m new, I have 16 tubes actually installed and maybe ten in cardboard boxes.  Do serious collectors take their tubes on journeys? Maybe to the shore or to a cabin in the Catskill?


I heard that some people like @Ripper2860 take them to hotel rooms.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Well you do have some aptitude with electronics, take a different path.😜


The path of least resistance 😳😖👎👎👎…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I heard that some people like @Ripper2860 take them to hotel rooms.


Key is room*s. *Hence the ‘no vacancy’ signs everywhere.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …what if it takes 40 hours/week to look…?😳


Then I wouldn't be looking efficiently, and improving that for a company is what I do.  Or did.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The path of least resistance 😳😖👎👎👎…


I see what you did there.


----------



## cgb3

musicman59 said:


> I put down my last cigarette in October 1986 and nothing will make me pick up another one….


Well, we've got to find the requisite power of porn to make you do so.

My comment was facetious.

There's only one thing that would make me pick up cigarettes again. A fast approaching death sentence.

I loved smoking. Almost every aspect (other than the burned clothing, furniture, car upholstery (my leather days. Cloth is so much better in a Southern Climate, but leather is more burn resistant). The smell. One exudes smoke. Today, I can smell that acrid aroma from 5 cars back.

That all said, give me a death knell, and a pack of Marlboros


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Then I wouldn't be looking efficiently, and improving that for a company is what I do.  Or did.


You would be “improving that for a company” by not getting around to that company….😏


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I heard that some people like @Ripper2860 take them to hotel rooms.


Yeah.  The tubes really  love it when you knock on the door pretending to be a maintenance man or a pizza delivery guy. 😏


----------



## LoryWiv

jonathan c said:


> The path of least resistance 😳😖👎👎👎…


Something to meditate on: Ohm!


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2022)

LoryWiv said:


> Something to meditate on: Ohm!


https://www.last.fm/music/I'm+Sorry+I'll+Read+That+Again/_/Eurovision+Pun+Contest/+wiki

I am reminded of work by John Cleese prior to Monty Python.

A man alone on a raft, turning red, was marooned.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 1, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> The Melz 1578 / 6N8S (1963) is wondrous in the Schiit Lyr 3. Deep bass without bloat, fully sculpted midrange with the right body and no ‘etch’, airy treble that just extends on & on without glare or stridency. 🎼🎵—> 😀🤪. (Not possible without @Paladin79 counsel & advice 🙏)


I should loan you another fine example sometime since you understand.😉 You need to hear it in my amp one day.


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> Something to meditate on: Ohm!


…least resistance = nohm….😖


----------



## jonathan c

Pondoro said:


> Do serious collectors take their tubes on journeys?


Well, in London serious collectors take their journeys on the ‘Tube’…..😖🙁👎…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Well, in London serious collectors take their journeys on the ‘Tube’…..😖🙁👎… (ugh....sorry in advance)


FTFY.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah.  The tubes really  love it when you knock on the door pretending to be a maintenance man or a pizza delivery guy. 😏


…and the tubes get _really _excited in the back seat when you take the car to Valvoline….[😖 …🤢…🤮]


----------



## bcowen (Feb 2, 2022)

First one I've seen:  a '57 Foton with ribbed plates.  Everything pre-1956 has ribbed plates. Every 1957 and later I've seen (until this) has smooth plates.  The 1956's can have either ribbed or smooth which would lead to the assumption that the plate configuration was changed sometime during that year.  So either that's an incorrect assumption, or someone from Melz wandered over to Foton and taught them how to mix and match parts.    Seller wants $50 for it, and while it's interesting it's not $50 worth of interesting (to me).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255259461003?hash=item3b6ea6458b:g:6VUAAOSwZVZhqhIk


----------



## bcowen

@Paladin79 :  have you tried any of these that have the perforated plates, but are otherwise standard 6N8S's?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> First one I've seen:  a '57 Foton with ribbed plates.  Everything pre-1956 has ribbed plates. Every 1957 and later I've seen (until this) has smooth plates.  The 1956's can have either ribbed or smooth which would lead to the assumption that the plate configuration was changed sometime during that year.  So either that's an incorrect assumption, or someone from Melz wandered over to Foton and taught them how to mix and match parts.    Seller wants $50 for it, and while it's interesting it's not $50 worth of interesting (to me).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255259461003?hash=item3b6ea6458b:g:6VUAAOSwZVZhqhIk


Maybe I did not look at them closely but you had sent me a couple 57's and I always thought they had ribbed plates lol. I cannot check since I sent one out with the loaner amp I just shipped and would have to look for the other when I get home tonight lol.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> @Paladin79 :  have you tried any of these that have the perforated plates, but are otherwise standard 6N8S's?


Of course, you even pointed one out to me so I would buy it and you would not have to invest the money as I recall lol. They are in between the oval mica solid plate and the true 1578 IMHO. Really not too bad of a tube at all if you can get them for $25 or so. Many of the Russians are trying to get top dollar on anything they can find so I have seen them lately for $100 up.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 2, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Maybe I did not look at them closely but you had sent me a couple 57's and I always thought they had ribbed plates lol. I cannot check since I sent one out with the loaner amp I just shipped and would have to look for the other when I get home tonight lol.


Well, I can't say with absolute certainty but I'd be _very_ surprised if they had ribbed plates as that's one of those construction details I've always paid particular attention to. But if you can look when you have time, I'd be interested to know for sure one way or the other.  Just asking for a friend.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Of course, you even pointed one out to me so I would buy it and you would not have to invest the money as I recall lol. They are in between the oval mica solid plate and the true 1578 IMHO. Really not too bad of a tube at all if you can get them for $25 or so. Many of the Russians are trying to get top dollar on anything they can find so I have seen them lately for $100 up.


Yeah, seller is listing this particular one for $100.  I've seen others like this from time to time, but haven't paid much attention to the prices after seeing they weren't bona-fide 1578's.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, seller is listing this particular one for $100.  I've seen others like this from time to time, but haven't paid much attention to the prices after seeing they weren't bona-fide 1578's.


I am sure I can send one your way if you want to hear it. I need to distract you with something shiny so you will forget about amps for a bit.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am sure I can send one your way if you want to hear it. I need to distract you with something shiny so you will forget about amps for a bit.


Do you have any of these shiny plate ones with dovetailed corners?  😁😁


----------



## sam6550a

jonathan c said:


> You would be “improving that for a company” by not getting around to that company….😏


I do not believe that he ever offered his services to GE.


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah.  The tubes really  love it when you knock on the door pretending to be a maintenance man or a pizza delivery guy. 😏


Especially if they are microphonic.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Do you have any of these shiny plate ones with dovetailed corners?  😁😁


Man I hope you find a job soon.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Man I hope you *we* find you a job soon.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> Seller wants $50 for it, and while it's interesting it's not $50 worth of interesting (to me).


You're making it difficult for the future curator of the Bill Cowen live bait and Tube Museum.


----------



## geoffalter11

Hi all, new to this thread.  A few questions I hoping I can get some answers or recommendations from.

I just purchased an Icon Audio HP8.  It has 2 different tubes.  I got the upgraded tube package, but would love some advice on what to try next or what is best?  I know that is purely subjective, so whatever you throw my way I will research.  

1. HP8 comes with 2 CV181s (6SN7 variants).  I have the David Shaw CV181 Ceramic bottoms.  
2. Also comes with 1 12AX7 driver tube.  I have a Russian Electro Harmonix.  Believe it is an ECC83.

What do you recommend?  I am hearing the Ken-Rad VT231, the CBS Hytron 5692 from Upscale.  What else do you recommend?  Best place to buy them?
What do you recommend for the 12AX7?  
How much difference will the tubes make?  Does the  transformer determine the majority of this amps sound or will the tubes make a huge difference?

The HP8 thus far is sounding fantastic.  The CV181 Ceramics are awesome.

Thanks,


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,

The 6SN7 David Shaw tubes are the Ps Vane Hifi version in reality they are just re-labelled.
And the 12Ax is an Electro Harmonix tube.
So nothing special and in fact works better.
There isn't a special thread about the amp here, that's where I would go.
Otherwise you can use any 6Sn7 and the 12ax as well.
Nobody can say in advance how big the effect will be. As a tip, I would rather start small and read something about the tube type before spending a lot of money unnecessarily.

The other thing with the transformer I have also read something about it but how big the effect is I imagine more in a similar proportion as when you change capacitors.
Speaking of capacitors, the Jupiter wax/paper are used.
They have to be replaced at some point because they run dry, but otherwise have good values.
So I can imagine that the amplifier sounds quite warm and sweet.
Then look for cheap Nos tubes and put them in, let them burn in long enough and you will get a feeling for how much a tube change will affect it.


----------



## geoffalter11 (Feb 3, 2022)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> 
> The 6SN7 David Shaw tubes are the Ps Vane Hifi version in reality they are just re-labelled.
> And the 12Ax is an Electro Harmonix tube.
> ...


Thanks. The amp is pretty sweet sounding but not overly warm. I had the caps changed to Mundorf when I went from the Brown bottom CV181 Shaws to the Ceramic CV181 Shaws.

Appreciate the answers. I will play around a bit with some NOS tubes and see how it changes the sound.


----------



## bcowen

geoffalter11 said:


> What do you recommend?  I am hearing the Ken-Rad VT231, the CBS Hytron 5692 from Upscale.  What else do you recommend?  Best place to buy them?
> What do you recommend for the 12AX7?
> How much difference will the tubes make?  Does the  transformer determine the majority of this amps sound or will the tubes make a huge difference?
> 
> ...


Welcome!  And I get it:  the unrelenting need to make something that sounds fantastic sound even more fantastic.   

If it were me (and this is all a personal preference thing), I'd leave the CV181's alone for now and focus on the 12AX7.  The PSVane CV181's are very nice sounding tubes.  You would likely get a different flavor with something NOS, but not necessarily _better_.  On the 12AX7's, I have a few Electro Harmonix branded ones (although they are likely 90's or early 2000's manufacture), and while they are quiet, they are pretty bland and thin sounding in the midrange.  Yours may be different depending on when they were manufactured though.  IME, if you want to go to straight to the head of the class, look for a smooth plate Telefunken. The smooth plates pre-dated the rib plate versions and are decidedly better sounding.  One word of caution though with all 12AX7's (not just the Tele's) is that their higher gain can lead to a higher incidence of noise issues. If you can buy from a dealer that thoroughly screens them, great. But if you're looking to buy from Ebay or other private sellers, be sure you get return privileges in case the tube turns out noisy.


----------



## geoffalter11 (Feb 3, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Welcome!  And I get it:  the unrelenting need to make something that sounds fantastic sound even more fantastic.
> 
> If it were me (and this is all a personal preference thing), I'd leave the CV181's alone for now and focus on the 12AX7.  The PSVane CV181's are very nice sounding tubes.  You would likely get a different flavor with something NOS, but not necessarily _better_.  On the 12AX7's, I have a few Electro Harmonix branded ones (although they are likely 90's or early 2000's manufacture), and while they are quiet, they are pretty bland and thin sounding in the midrange.  Yours may be different depending on when they were manufactured though.  IME, if you want to go to straight to the head of the class, look for a smooth plate Telefunken. The smooth plates pre-dated the rib plate versions and are decidedly better sounding.  One word of caution though with all 12AX7's (not just the Tele's) is that their higher gain can lead to a higher incidence of noise issues. If you can buy from a dealer that thoroughly screens them, great. But if you're looking to buy from Ebay or other private sellers, be sure you get return privileges in case the tube turns out noisy.


Thank you. Honestly, that sounds more my speed as I was not wanting or looking forward to spending $500-$600 on tubes. I was more curious and wanted to start researching and understanding what is out there. Right now I am extremely happy with how this amp sounds. Blown away tbh. It is just so much better than I could have imagined.  They is why my main question was how much the tubes make or change the sound of an amp like the HP8. Is it even necessary. Typically I am not someone who will spend a thousand dollars on tubes.

So the David Shaw Ceramic Bottom is a PSvane CV-181? Why don’t they call it that?

Thanks for the answers and help. I will go back and read now and enjoy what I have. It has literally been just two days and the amp is still waking up. Last night it took a big step forward.

With an amp like this does it make sense for the first little while to leave it on and let the tubes burn in? I watched a video with Kevin Deal where he recommended a hundred plus hrs before a tube hits its full potential. If that’s the case I’ve got more to look forward to.


----------



## Pondoro

geoffalter11 said:


> Thank you. Honestly, that sounds more my speed as* I was not wanting or looking forward to spending $500-$600 on tubes*. I was more curious and wanted to start researching and understanding what is out there. Right now I am extremely happy with how this amp sounds. Blown away tbh. It is just so much better than I could have imagined.  They is why my main question was how much the tubes make or change the sound of an amp like the HP8. Is it even necessary. Typically I am not someone who will spend a thousand dollars on tubes.
> 
> So the David Shaw Ceramic Bottom is a PSvane CV-181? Why don’t they call it that?
> 
> ...


That's me. I am curious but not *that* curious!


----------



## geoffalter11

Pondoro said:


> That's me. I am curious but not *that* curious!


I like your signature.


----------



## rawheadjim

Same here, I'm way too new to this, I just got a Freya+ a little over a month ago.  I started with page 1 of this thread and copied the reference guide into a word doc that I keep open.  I've spent about $250 too soon, on tubes that experienced people would probably value at $50!  Now I know just enough, not to buy any more tubes until I can research more.  

I would be fine paying $250 for 2 matched gain tubes that are really worth it and will make a difference, I just don't know which ones those are for sure or if they are available anywhere right now.  I'm not comfortable paying $250 each for 2 CBS Hytron's from Upscale, if I could find them for about 1/2 that I would go for it.  I'd love a book on this topic, and will anxiously wait for more blind testing from senior members on this.


----------



## TLO (Feb 3, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> Same here, I'm way too new to this, I just got a Freya+ a little over a month ago.  I started with page 1 of this thread and copied the reference guide into a word doc that I keep open.  I've spent about $250 too soon, on tubes that experienced people would probably value at $50!  Now I know just enough, not to buy any more tubes until I can research more.
> 
> I would be fine paying $250 for 2 matched gain tubes that are really worth it and will make a difference, I just don't know which ones those are for sure or if they are available anywhere right now.  I'm not comfortable paying $250 each for 2 CBS Hytron's from Upscale, if I could find them for about 1/2 that I would go for it.  I'd love a book on this topic, and will anxiously wait for more blind testing from senior members on this.


If I were you, I will take the time to shop around at Ebay. Pay close attention on the details how sellers or tube vendors listed their tubes, how's the condition of most of the tubes they are selling, last and the most important, their feedback ratings. You will notice there are not so nice sellers or tube vendors but there are also many great and honest sellers to deal with. Personally, I wouldnt buy from tube vendors through their websites. That's just me.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 3, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> Thank you. Honestly, that sounds more my speed as I was not wanting or looking forward to spending $500-$600 on tubes. I was more curious and wanted to start researching and understanding what is out there. Right now I am extremely happy with how this amp sounds. Blown away tbh. It is just so much better than I could have imagined.  They is why my main question was how much the tubes make or change the sound of an amp like the HP8. Is it even necessary. Typically I am not someone who will spend a thousand dollars on tubes.
> 
> *So the David Shaw Ceramic Bottom is a PSvane CV-181? Why don’t they call it that?*


Yup, that's what they appear to be.  They are re-labeled in the name of the designer of the amp, which is not unusual at all.  I have a bunch of tubes labeled 'Cary Audio' that came with, well, Cary Audio components.   Cary never made tubes, they were just re-labeled for them. I have tubes labeled 'HP' (for Hewlett Packard) that were made by Amperex. HP of course never made tubes, nor were they ever in the business of selling tubes _except_ as replacements or spare parts for their equipment. So it's not an uncommon practice or anything to worry about.



geoffalter11 said:


> With an amp like this does it make sense for the first little while to leave it on and let the tubes burn in? I watched a video with Kevin Deal where he recommended a hundred plus hrs before a tube hits its full potential. If that’s the case I’ve got more to look forward to.


Burn-in is a controversial topic, with some believing it makes a significant difference, and others believing nothing really changes with the component and it's really just our ears breaking into the sound of it. I reside in the first camp, and think you'll continue to hear improvements as the amp gets more hours of play time.  And with a new amp, it's not just the tubes burning in, it's the rest of the components in the amp, especially capacitors.  I usually hear the biggest changes in the first 20 - 25 hours, and while improvements after that are typically more subtle and minor they can still be there up to that 100 hour (or 100+ hour) mark.

But all that said, if you're loving the sound of the amp right now why mess with anything?  The designer/manufacturer has obviously spent some time voicing the amp with the tubes it ships with, otherwise they could have easily just equipped it with new production (Russian) Tung Sol or Gold Lion or Electro Harmonix 6SN7's rather than the CV181's that are 4x - 5x the cost.  It's possible that different tubes may not synergize as well and perhaps not sound as good overall as what you already have.  I realize I may have my tube roller's license revoked for even saying that , but it *is* something to consider.


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> Yup, that's what they appear to be.  They are re-labeled in the name of the designer of the amp, which is not unusual at all.  I have a bunch of tubes labeled 'Cary Audio' that came with, well, Cary Audio components.   Cary never made tubes, they were just re-labeled for them. I have tubes labeled 'HP' (for Hewlett Packard) that were made by Amperex. HP of course never made tubes, nor were they ever in the business of selling tubes _except_ as replacements or spare parts for their equipment. So it's not an uncommon practice or anything to worry about.
> 
> 
> Burn-in is a controversial topic, with some believing it makes a significant difference, and others believing nothing really changes with the component and it's really just our ears breaking into the sound of it. I reside in the first camp, and think you'll continue to hear improvements as the amp gets more hours of play time.  And with a new amp, it's not just the tubes burning in, it's the rest of the components in the amp, especially capacitors.  I usually hear the biggest changes in the first 20 - 25 hours, and while improvements after that are typically more subtle and minor they can still be there up to that 100 hour (or 100+ hour) mark.
> ...


I completely understand.  My curiosity takes over and realize that there is this whole world out there I am now going to get to learn about.  The HP8 comes with 2 different tube packages.  I opted for the premium or signature package.  It included Mundorf Caps and the Ceramic Bottom CV181s and a Russian Electro Harmonix 12AX7.  The regular package was brown bottom David Shaw CV181s and an ECC83.  Not sure which.

Anyways, I am at about 25 hrs now on the amp and last night it sounded 15-20% better than when I first turned it on.  All of sudden all of the detail I hear through my SS amp was there while still keeping that sweet tube tonality and the slightest bit of warmth.  It is not overly warm or euphonic.  However, there is no doubt it is a tube amp.  I have owned a Bottlehead Mainline as my only other pure tube amp.  I have also owned a Pathos Aurium, but that was a hybrid.  This is my first amp where the tubes impart a certain sound to the amp.  Tube rolling with the Mainline was pointless.  I tried with the Aurium, but really couldn't tell a difference.  It always sounded great, no matter the tubes I put in it.  

I am absolutely in love with this amp and the tubes coming out of it are beautiful.  I will not spend $500 on tubes without research and a ton of neurotic overthinking.  I have a little sign on my desk that says, "Hold On! I need to overthink this".  So, I will ask questions, read, learn and continue to listen.  Right now I see no reason to change anything.  I like it too much as is.  My ZMF Auteur has never sounded better.  I will however want to try different tubes down the line.  Not sure what or when.  

I agree, this amp was voiced with these specific tubes in mind.


----------



## jonathan c

geoffalter11 said:


> Thank you. Honestly, that sounds more my speed as I was not wanting or looking forward to spending $500-$600 on _*a tube 😳😱…*_


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]. _This does happen….the U709 rectifier tube, GEC / Marconi, is shown in this range._


----------



## Deleeh

geoffalter11 said:


> Thank you. Honestly, that sounds more my speed as I was not wanting or looking forward to spending $500-$600 on tubes. I was more curious and wanted to start researching and understanding what is out there. Right now I am extremely happy with how this amp sounds. Blown away tbh. It is just so much better than I could have imagined.  They is why my main question was how much the tubes make or change the sound of an amp like the HP8. Is it even necessary. Typically I am not someone who will spend a thousand dollars on tubes.
> 
> So the David Shaw Ceramic Bottom is a PSvane CV-181? Why don’t they call it that?
> 
> ...


Hello,
@bcowen has written some things about this that are true.
Give the amplifier some time, especially the capacitors are still opening up.
The impressions he wrote are the same for me: the bigger step takes place in the first few hours, and then less and less.
I don't think Kevin's statements about the tubes are wrong, the filament needs time until it is burnt in.
And if it hasn't been used for a long time, the process has to take place again.
I don't think it will take as long as when the tube is completely new.
First and foremost, it is also about the fact that the materials expand and contract in the first phase and at some point have a target status, which also takes some time to achieve.

I bought a new RCA 6AS7G and burned it in with the capacitor replacement and used it through the process.
It actually sounded better when it had 400 hours on it than when it was new.
However, most of it came from the capacitor replacement, but it is now a personal experience that one makes, some may not hear it at all, others more.

About the David Shaw tube, I don't know why they do it that way, but it seems legitimate and OK if you don't charge exorbitant prices like Sophia Electric does.
Maybe he got the contract that way and Psvane agreed to it at the time.
I did some research recently because I came across them and found out that they are a Ps Vane Hifi.
If you don't like it, you can try the Linlai Hifi, which is also good and probably warmer and less neutral than the Ps Vane.
By the way, I read somewhere that the Ps Vane needs a good 200 hours before it opens.
Try something cheap but still good for a start so you get a feel for the amp and what it responds best to when it's been used.
Then you will also get to know the advantages and disadvantages better.


----------



## geoffalter11

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> @bcowen has written some things about this that are true.
> Give the amplifier some time, especially the capacitors are still opening up.
> The impressions he wrote are the same for me: the bigger step takes place in the first few hours, and then less and less.
> ...


This is great.  Thank you.  I will check out the Linlai Hifi.  I am excited to see how this amp performs, and changes over time.  So far so good.


----------



## jonathan c

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> @bcowen has written *some *things about this that are true.


…😜…oh, bcowen…is it time for ‘Point / Counterpoint’…?


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> …😜…oh, bcowen…is it time for ‘Point / Counterpoint’…?


Hush, Bill is probably looking through the want ads right now trying to land a forty hour a week job. I am not sure Walmart greeters are allowed to talk about Fotons and such so that job is definitely out.


----------



## Pondoro (Feb 3, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Hush, Bill is probably looking through the want ads right now trying to land a forty hour a week job. I am not sure Walmart greeters are allowed to talk about Fotons and such so that job is definitely out.


Lately when I search for stuff online Walmart often jumps into the fray, even if it is an esoteric woodworking tool or musical instrument accessory. I believe they have an algorithm that determines what you are buying. shops for it, adds a percentage, and offers it to you at the marked up price. So they might start selling tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

Pondoro said:


> Lately when I search for stuff online Walmart often jumps into the fray, even if it is an esoteric woodworking tool or musical instrument accessory. I believe they have an algorithm that determines what you are buying. shops for it, adds a percentage, and offers it to you at the marked up price. So they might start selling tubes.


Could well be. On another subject I imagine you are getting the same weather I am right now, time to stay home and wait for the snow and ice to clear out.


----------



## cddc

TLO said:


> If I were you, I will take the time to shop around at Ebay. Pay close attention on the details how sellers or tube vendors listed their tubes, how's the condition of most of the tubes they are selling, last and the most important, their feedback ratings. You will notice there are not so nice sellers or tube vendors but there are also many great and honest sellers to deal with. Personally, I wouldnt buy from tube vendors through their websites. That's just me.




Agree, I will say this - most tube vendors with their own selling websites are way overpriced, 2x - 5x ongoing market prices at least, like Upscale, TubeDepot, Sophia Electric, TubeMaze, Audiotubes, Viva tubes, etc. Think about the cost of setting up and maintaining their websites, those costs have to be added to their selling prices.

On eBay we also need to avoid sellers from Italy, wege_high_tubes and his numerous gangsters are sheer robbers.


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> Could well be. On another subject I imagine you are getting the same weather I am right now, time to stay home and wait for the snow and ice to clear out.


Sunny and cold here in Utah.


----------



## Pondoro

Paladin79 said:


> Could well be. On another subject I imagine you are getting the same weather I am right now, time to stay home and wait for the snow and ice to clear out.


Yes, it cancelled our trip to Terre Haute/Spencer. Working from home and consoling myself listening to Gene Krupa, both his band and from his time with Benny Goodman. Planning to make pizza tonight.


----------



## pravous

Rain is eating all the snow we got last week here in Mass   Luckily it is supposed to change back to snow tomorrow


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …😜…oh, bcowen…is it time for ‘Point / Counterpoint’…?


This is, of course, better than saying I wrote some stuff that was NOT true.  I mean that's never happened before, but there's always a first time.  🤣🤣


----------



## geoffalter11

cddc said:


> Agree, I will say this - most tube vendors with their own selling websites are way overpriced, 2x - 5x ongoing market prices at least, like Upscale, TubeDepot, Sophia Electric, TubeMaze, Audiotubes, Viva tubes, etc. Think about the cost of setting up and maintaining their websites, those costs have to be added to their selling prices.
> 
> On eBay we also need to avoid sellers from Italy, wege_high_tubes and his numerous gangsters are sheer robbers.


This is a new world to me, but Ebay seems dangerous for a novice like me.  I don't currently understand the language, or what to look for.  I always look at their feedback and try to figure out if they are legit or selling knock offs, but without understanding what I am buying, overpriced tubes would make me more comfortable.  Once I understand what I am looking for, what is real and what is not I will absolutely use Ebay.  Cutting through the BS is hard if you don't know what to look for.

I am a left handed golfer and use Ebay solely for my club needs.  It took me years to know which dealers, vendors and sellers had legit stuff and which do not.  Going to a golf store for a lefty is like going into Best Buy to get an LCD-5.  Impossible!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Hush, Bill is probably looking through the want ads right now trying to land a forty hour a week job. I am not sure Walmart greeters are allowed to talk about Fotons and such so that job is definitely out.


No, I'm deciding whether to go put on some shorts. Gonna be 67 here in a few hours.  🤣🤣


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> No, I'm deciding whether to go put on some shorts. Gonna be 67 here in a few hours.  🤣🤣


quit bragging


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Agree, I will say this - most tube vendors with their own selling websites are way overpriced, 2x - 5x ongoing market prices at least, like Upscale, TubeDepot, Sophia Electric, TubeMaze, Audiotubes, Viva tubes, etc. Think about the cost of setting up and maintaining their websites, those costs have to be added to their selling prices.
> 
> On eBay we also need to avoid sellers from Italy, wege_high_tubes and his numerous gangsters are sheer robbers.


And avoid US sellers like BangyBang and tubesandcoins (BangyBang Jr) in the US...


----------



## bcowen

geoffalter11 said:


> This is a new world to me, but Ebay seems dangerous for a novice like me.  I don't currently understand the language, or what to look for.  I always look at their feedback and try to figure out if they are legit or selling knock offs, but without understanding what I am buying, overpriced tubes would make me more comfortable.  Once I understand what I am looking for, what is real and what is not I will absolutely use Ebay.  Cutting through the BS is hard if you don't know what to look for.
> 
> I am a left handed golfer and use Ebay solely for my club needs.  It took me years to know which dealers, vendors and sellers had legit stuff and which do not.  Going to a golf store for a lefty is like going into Best Buy to get an LCD-5.  Impossible!


And unfortunately, the feedback can be of no use when it comes to tube sellers. Both BangyBang and tubesandcoins have 100% positive feedback, yet both are well known to be shysters.  Menifee Audio (a 3rd BangyBang site) appears to sell genuine articles, but prices stuff at 4x+ the going market rates.


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> And unfortunately, the feedback can be of no use when it comes to tube sellers. Both BangyBang and tubesandcoins have 100% positive feedback, yet both are well known to be shysters.  Menifee Audio (a 3rd BangyBang site) appears to sell genuine articles, but prices stuff at 4x+ the going market rates.


Oy Vey!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No, I'm deciding whether to go put on some shorts. Gonna be 67 here in a few hours.  🤣🤣


Jerk!  And I mean that in the nicest possible way.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Hush, Bill is probably looking through the want ads right now trying to land a forty hour a week job. I am not sure Walmart greeters are allowed to talk about Fotons and such so that job is definitely out.


…how many of them can spell Foton…?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> No, I'm deciding whether to go put on some shorts. Gonna be *67 *here in a few hours. 🤣🤣


…that more than puts you in old man 👨‍🌾 category…🤣🤣🤣…🧏🧏🧏…


----------



## jonathan c

geoffalter11 said:


> This is a new world to me, but Ebay seems dangerous for a novice like me.  I don't currently understand the language, or what to look for.  I always look at their feedback and try to figure out if they are legit or selling knock offs, but without understanding what I am buying, overpriced tubes would make me more comfortable.  Once I understand what I am looking for, what is real and what is not I will absolutely use Ebay.  Cutting through the BS is hard if you don't know what to look for.
> 
> I am a left handed golfer and use Ebay solely for my club needs.  It took me years to know which dealers, vendors and sellers had legit stuff and which do not.  Going to a golf store for a lefty is like going into Best Buy to get an LCD-5.  Impossible!


…and if someone tries to sell you a ‘left handed’ tube….🚩🚩🚩🚩….😏😎😏


----------



## FLTWS

Re-branding is nothing new. Even vaunted tubes from the 50's and 60's may be re-brands. Maybe even earlier and later decades. The proof is in the listening regardless of what company manufactured it for what other company.


----------



## rawheadjim

Don't worry, I don't know much yet, but I ONLY buy right-handed Photon tubes!


----------



## Ripper2860

I am ambivalent but then again, I am ambidextrous.  😏


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Jerk!  And I mean that in the nicest possible way.


…he’ll just put on his shorts, rock on the porch, get ready for some good tube jerky…


----------



## geoffalter11

jonathan c said:


> …and if someone tries to sell you a ‘left handed’ tube….🚩🚩🚩🚩….😏😎😏


Hey lefties have right’s too…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …that more than puts you in old man 👨‍🌾 category…🤣🤣🤣…🧏🧏🧏…


No, black dress socks with the shorts would put me in old man category.  At 67 degrees, I go barefoot (I _am_ just down the hill from hillbilly country after all).


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I am ambivalent but then again, I am ambidextrous *and amphibian*. 😏


FTFY.


----------



## jonathan c

To @Pondoro: Lately when I search for stuff online Bangybang often jumps into the fray (even if it is an esoteric woodworking tool or musical instrument accessory). I believe that he has an algorithm that determines what you are buying, shops for it, adds an astronomical percentage, and offers it to you at the marked up price with a plethora of impossible guarantees. All the words in his messages end in “s” whether the context is singular or plural.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Could well be. On another subject I imagine you are getting the same weather I am right now, time to stay home and wait for the snow and ice to clear out.





geoffalter11 said:


> Sunny and cold here in Utah.





Pondoro said:


> Yes, it cancelled our trip to Terre Haute/Spencer. Working from home and consoling myself listening to Gene Krupa, both his band and from his time with Benny Goodman. Planning to make pizza tonight.



Ha! At 06:00 this morning it was -48C windchill at our airport - it's so adorable when you Americans complain about the cold


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I am ambivalent but then again, I am ambidextrous.  😏


‘I am ambivalent’ or ‘I am bivalent’…?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 4, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> ‘I am ambivalent’ or ‘I am bivalent’…?


I don't know what you are.  Not that there's anything wrong with what you are. You just go on being you.  😜


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Ha! At 06:00 this morning it was -48C windchill at our airport - it's so adorable when you Americans complain about the cold


Cold?  We can't _handle _the cold!


----------



## geoffalter11

Mr Trev said:


> Ha! At 06:00 this morning it was -48C windchill at our airport - it's so adorable when you Americans complain about the cold


Where is this place of cold and wonder and gnomes?


----------



## bcowen

geoffalter11 said:


> Where is this place of cold and wonder and gnomes?


It's where the arrow is pointing to.  😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Ha! At 06:00 this morning it was -48C windchill at our airport - it's so adorable when you Americans complain about the cold


Sorry but is -48C good or bad? 😀 I am too lazy to convert it to our system.


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 3, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry but is -48C good or bad? 😀 I am too lazy to convert it to our system.


Wait a moment…I thought that continental US (not Canada) was the lower 48…🧐🤨🤪…


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry but is -48C good or bad? 😀 I am too lazy to convert it to our system.


The good thing is I get free cryo-treating whenever I want - just leave my gear outside overnight


----------



## Mr Trev

The even wackier thing is ~6mo. ago it was over 80 degrees warmer


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> The even wackier thing is ~6mo. ago it was over 80 degrees warmer


That’s what happens when you go from vacuum tube amplification to SS amplification: the environment & the music get colder 🥶🥶🥶…


----------



## TLO

geoffalter11 said:


> This is a new world to me, but Ebay seems dangerous for a novice like me.  I don't currently understand the language, or what to look for.  I always look at their feedback and try to figure out if they are legit or selling knock offs, but without understanding what I am buying, overpriced tubes would make me more comfortable.  Once I understand what I am looking for, what is real and what is not I will absolutely use Ebay.  Cutting through the BS is hard if you don't know what to look for.
> 
> I am a left handed golfer and use Ebay solely for my club needs.  It took me years to know which dealers, vendors and sellers had legit stuff and which do not.  Going to a golf store for a lefty is like going into Best Buy to get an LCD-5.  Impossible!


What makes you think buying from tube vendors through their websites at a much expensive price will not get screwed? Another thing about feedbacks at Ebay...I dont look at the percentage or positives, I look at how many negatives and why seller gets a negative. Generally, you can briefly predict what kind of sellers they are with the helps of the way they listed their tubes, details, condition of the tubes they are selling. Since someone mentioned Viva Tubes, I will say it then, look at their listings, you will find that majority of their listings are of poor condition tubes. Another word, avoid at all cost, this vendor is a classic dumper at Ebay. Another Russian seller, listed tubes in pair in the picture but actually if you read carefully, the listing is priced for a single tube. Another classic sellers, always listed tubes as tested strong or NOS but no readings. These are the kind of sellers to avoid.


----------



## geoffalter11

TLO said:


> What makes you think buying from tube vendors through their websites at a much expensive price will not get screwed? Another thing about feedbacks at Ebay...I dont look at the percentage or positives, I look at how many negatives and why seller gets a negative. Generally, you can briefly predict what kind of sellers they are with the helps of the way they listed their tubes, details, condition of the tubes they are selling. Since someone mentioned Viva Tubes, I will say it then, look at their listings, you will find that majority of their listings are of poor condition tubes. Another word, avoid at all cost, this vendor is a classic dumper at Ebay. Another Russian seller, listed tubes in pair in the picture but actually if you read carefully, the listing is priced for a single tube. Another classic sellers, always listed tubes as tested strong or NOS but no readings. These are the kind of sellers to avoid.


I noticed that a lot. Pair but single tube. The descriptions have lots of language I don’t know so I would feel buying them I would be unaware of what I am getting. Last thing I want is to overspend, but I also want piece of mind to know I am buying something real. At least til I can tell the difference myself.


----------



## TLO

geoffalter11 said:


> I noticed that a lot. Pair but single tube. The descriptions have lots of language I don’t know so I would feel buying them I would be unaware of what I am getting. Last thing I want is to overspend, but I also want piece of mind to know I am buying something real. At least til I can tell the difference myself.


Your best bet, IMO, is be patient. Spend some time at Ebay without buying anything. Treat it as window shopping...lol. Try to observe and dont be afraid to ask any questions here. Ppl here are always friendly and more than willing to help. That is the best way to learn fast. Imo, I dont buy from vendors' websites is becos you are at the mercy of what they are going to send you without you knowing it in advance. At Ebay, sellers will get negative feedbacks if the tubes they sent are garbage or not as listed.


----------



## geoffalter11

TLO said:


> Your best bet, IMO, is be patient. Spend some time at Ebay without buying anything. Treat it as window shopping...lol. Try to observe and dont be afraid to ask any questions here. Ppl here are always friendly and more than willing to help. That is the best way to learn fast. Imo, I dont buy from vendors' websites is becos you are at the mercy of what they are going to send you without you knowing it in advance. At Ebay, sellers will get negative feedbacks if the tubes they sent are garbage or not as listed.


I am not planning on buying anything anytime soon. Too much to learn. Still learning my new amp. Which I love… 

Thank you! Sound advice!!!


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Your best bet, IMO, is be patient. Spend some time at Ebay without buying anything. Treat it as window shopping...lol. Try to observe and dont be afraid to ask any questions here. Ppl here are always friendly and more than willing to help. That is the best way to learn fast. Imo, I dont buy from vendors' websites is becos you are at the mercy of what they are going to send you without you knowing it in advance.


Great advice!



TLO said:


> At Ebay, sellers will get negative feedbacks if the tubes they sent are garbage or not as listed.


For most, yes.  Somehow BangyBang has figured out a way around this.  One of the most prolific sellers of fake and relabeled tubes I've ever run across, yet somehow maintains a 100% positive rating.  Perhaps he just refunds immediately if someone complains, or sends different tubes no questions asked, or  ???  I have no idea, but there's no way he could credibly amass such a quantity of perfect feedback when there have been dozens upon dozens of his listings with _very_ obvious bogus tubes.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
I find this action very negligent.
Apart from the fact that they may be tubes that have been re-labelled and the condition is questionable.
Will this work until someone destroys their amplifier because of this and takes action against it.
That's probably the worse part of the story if something like that should/could happen.
The only thing you can do is to just keep giving negative ratings for all it's worth.


----------



## TLO (Feb 4, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Great advice!
> 
> 
> For most, yes.  Somehow BangyBang has figured out a way around this.  One of the most prolific sellers of fake and relabeled tubes I've ever run across, yet somehow maintains a 100% positive rating.  Perhaps he just refunds immediately if someone complains, or sends different tubes no questions asked, or  ???  I have no idea, but there's no way he could credibly amass such a quantity of perfect feedback when there have been dozens upon dozens of his listings with _very_ obvious bogus tubes.


Perhaps, jut perhaps...I am just guessing....99.9% of buyers will take the offer of whatever the seller makes when the deals gone south, in exchange of not leaving or removing a negative feedback. Wouldnt be surprised if there are also buyers get burned but just moved on without leaving a comment becos there are more nice ppl than nasty ppl in this world...
Yes, it is a nasty stunt that bad businessmen has been using for decades.
I, for one, have been burned a few times at Ebay when I first started up on tubes, like everyone else. I dont even bother to contact sellers becos very obviously, it is not human error or natural cause but intentionally. I just left a very detailed negative feedback to warn other buyers.


----------



## TLO

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> I find this action very negligent.
> Apart from the fact that they may be tubes that have been re-labelled and the condition is questionable.
> Will this work until someone destroys their amplifier because of this and takes action against it.
> ...


Well frankly, there is no 100% safe proof to do online purchases. We can only try our best to educate ourselves through experiences and careful observation to minimize the risk. FYI, I have been doing online purchases since Ebay started in 1995.


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Well frankly, there is no 100% safe proof to do online purchases. *We can only try our best to educate ourselves through experiences and careful observation to minimize the risk.* FYI, I have been doing online purchases since Ebay started in 1995.


Very true.  I've been on Ebay since '99, and after getting burned early on I tend to pore over every detail in a listing before I purchase.  Bogus or suspect test data is always the first red flag for me when buying tubes. Ebay has much better buyer protection mechanisms in place now than they did back then, but you still have to be careful of a "he said, she said" type situation where you lack solid ground to prevail in a dispute.


----------



## Pondoro

bcowen said:


> Very true.  I've been on Ebay since '99, and after getting burned early on I tend to pore over every detail in a listing before I purchase.  Bogus or suspect test data is always the first red flag for me when buying tubes. Ebay has much better buyer protection mechanisms in place now than they did back then, but you still have to be careful of a "he said, she said" type situation where you lack solid ground to prevail in a dispute.


Just a couple of days ago I saw a pair of speakers advertised, "Tested and work. Slight damage to corners." But the pictures were of new, unblemished speakers. The price was very good. I PM'ed the seller and asked if he could post actual pictures of the damage, or send them to me. The answer was "no." I didn't buy.


----------



## TLO

Pondoro said:


> Just a couple of days ago I saw a pair of speakers advertised, "Tested and work. Slight damage to corners." But the pictures were of new, unblemished speakers. The price was very good. I PM'ed the seller and asked if he could post actual pictures of the damage, or send them to me. The answer was "no." I didn't buy.


Lol...


----------



## rawheadjim

I've been on ebay since 99 and it has gotten much easier to return items, so that's probably what's preventing negative feedback on these unscrupulous sellers.  Most of my purchases have been records or CDs over the past, for tube sellers I've only considered the ones who describe their testing equipment, show full ratings on how the pair matches, have been in business a very long time, I read any recent negative feedback, etc.  I think what I've purchased was exactly as described, and I would buy from them again once I know more.  

I bought a record off ebay in December that was described as excellent to mint, from the seller's own personal collection since bought new.  He had 99% feedback and the price was good, the pics of the vinyl were also good.  What arrived was probably a VG at best record with large visible scratches, and far too filthy to even attempt to clean or play.  Rather than going to the seller I clicked the return button on ebay, received a fast refund and shipping label, so it was as easy as amazon!


----------



## Paladin79

Pondoro said:


> Just a couple of days ago I saw a pair of speakers advertised, "Tested and work. Slight damage to corners." But the pictures were of new, unblemished speakers. The price was very good. I PM'ed the seller and asked if he could post actual pictures of the damage, or send them to me. The answer was "no." I didn't buy.


My favorite Ebay story is this. I was bidding on a Tag Heuer Monaco watch and did not get the bid. Another seller approached me outside of Ebay and offered me the same type watch for much less. He stole the photos from the first seller and obviously if you do a transaction outside of Ebay you have no protection. I played along and said wow, that is a wonderful price.
He was in L.A. so I said my brother will be in your area, he can pick up the watch and pay you. Seller said he did not like people coming to his house. I said no problem, he can meet you at a coffee shop or such, then he disappeared lol.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> My favorite Ebay story is this. I was bidding on a Tag Heuer Monaco watch and did not get the bid. Another seller approached me outside of Ebay and offered me the same type watch for much less. He stole the photos from the first seller and obviously if you do a transaction outside of Ebay you have no protection. I played along and said wow, that is a wonderful price.
> He was in L.A. so I said my brother will be in your area, he can pick up the watch and pay you. Seller said he did not like people coming to his house. I said no problem, he can meet you at a coffee shop or such, then he disappeared lol.


My early bad story on Ebay was for an Intel P4 processor not too long after they were first introduced. Guy had a listing at a price that was good, but not necessarily too good to be true, and showed a couple pictures of the factory shrink-wrapped box. When it arrived and although it was the correct box, there was no shrink wrap and the adhesive tab on the flap had been cut.  Opened it up, and it was a 3 year old P3 processor with some residue of thermal grease on the edges indicating it had been previously installed.  I immediately messaged the guy, and his response was that I'd obviously taken the new processor out of the box and replaced it with my old one, so screw off.  That's where the "he said, she said" thing enters the picture.  Ebay would do nothing about it (at the time), and I was basically screwed.  Yup, left negative feedback and all but that did nothing to get my money back. Had the guy not lived 2000 miles away I would likely have paid him a visit with baseball bat in hand.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> My early bad story on Ebay was for an Intel P4 processor not too long after they were first introduced. Guy had a listing at a price that was good, but not necessarily too good to be true, and showed a couple pictures of the factory shrink-wrapped box. When it arrived and although it was the correct box, there was no shrink wrap and the adhesive tab on the flap had been cut.  Opened it up, and it was a 3 year old P3 processor with some residue of thermal grease on the edges indicating it had been previously installed.  I immediately messaged the guy, and his response was that I'd obviously taken the new processor out of the box and replaced it with my old one, so screw off.  That's where the "he said, she said" thing enters the picture.  Ebay would do nothing about it (at the time), and I was basically screwed.  Yup, left negative feedback and all but that did nothing to get my money back. Had the guy not lived 2000 miles away I would likely have paid him a visit with baseball bat in hand.


I ordered a camera lens for a friend whom I was teaching photography and got an empty torn up box. I contacted PayPal and they shut the guy down till he made it right. it was around Xmas and he was trying to sell all kinds of product so he could do nothing for a while lol. Needless to say a new lens arrived quickly.


----------



## geoffalter11

All the reasons why a novice in a new market should wait til become enough of an expert to not get ripped off. Gotta know what to look for. I will have a bunch of fun on EBay when that day comes. 

I am going to start with the 12Ax7. I want a NOS tube for that spot. Typically with an amp like mine which of the tubes makes the bigger difference? The 12ax7 or the 6SN7/CV181? Or is it amp dependent? Cheaper for me to get one kick ass driver tube versus two NOS power tubes. I am thinking about the NOS Mullard on Upscale. Which I am sure is overpriced. Don’t care to start. If I spend $50 more for piece of mind that is ok right now.


----------



## golfbravobravo

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.last.fm/music/I'm+Sorry+I'll+Read+That+Again/_/Eurovision+Pun+Contest/+wiki
> 
> I am reminded of work by John Cleese prior to Monty Python.
> 
> A man alone on a raft, turning red, was marooned.


A man who quotes ISIRTA, well who knew!!!  I take it that you are also a follower of ISIHAC?


----------



## golfbravobravo

Ripper2860 said:


> I am ambivalent but then again, I am ambidextrous.  😏


I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!


----------



## TLO (Feb 4, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> All the reasons why a novice in a new market should wait til become enough of an expert to not get ripped off. Gotta know what to look for. I will have a bunch of fun on EBay when that day comes.
> 
> I am going to start with the 12Ax7. I want a NOS tube for that spot. Typically with an amp like mine which of the tubes makes the bigger difference? The 12ax7 or the 6SN7/CV181? Or is it amp dependent? Cheaper for me to get one kick ass driver tube versus two NOS power tubes. I am thinking about the NOS Mullard on Upscale. Which I am sure is overpriced. Don’t care to start. If I spend $50 more for piece of mind that is ok right now.


Well, this is exactly my thought when I first started out on vintage tubes....peace of mind...LOL. Please allow me to share my experience here....as I have shared it somewhere, I will cut and paste here.

"FYI, I have bought my first piece of stated as new and unused RCA 5691 from a tube vendor who has been recommended by ppl in the forum. Guess what I get, a relabeled Sylvania in a white box. I have paid the listed price of USD199 for a piece not pair! Later, I bought another two pairs (lightly used or unused one RCA and one relabeled Sylvania in original boxes) for USD200-210 for each pair from Ebay. I get more pissed when I got my simple emission tester recently. I tested that Sylvania relabeled 5691 and found that both plates are very unbalanced, one side is even under 80%. This tube has not been used but tested for about 30 minutes when I first received it. So much for buying from recommended tube vendors. No but I would rather take my chances in Ebay based on my experience."

BTW, the plate that measured below 80% of this exact relabeled Sylvania 5691 died about 1 month after I shared my story. This tube has been used max. no more than 50 hours as I have been using Mullard ECC35 most of the time.


----------



## Paladin79

golfbravobravo said:


> A man who quotes ISIRTA, well who knew!!!  I take it that you are also a follower of ISIHAC?


I have heard of it but that is all lol, I will try to check it out. Somewhere I have some recordings of the Goon Show starring Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan. I used to get that and ISIRTA on a university radio channel some years back so I did recordings. I am also a fan of an Indiana author whom it is said did the earliest talk radio show, Jean Shepherd. He co-scripted and narrated A Christmas Story, from short stories about his childhood.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Shepherd


----------



## golfbravobravo

Paladin79 said:


> I have heard of it but that is all lol, I will try to check it out. Somewhere I have some recordings of the Goon Show starring Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan. I used to get that and ISIRTA on a university radio channel some years back so I did recordings. I am also a fan of an Indiana author whom it is said did the earliest talk radio show, Jean Shepherd. He co-scripted and narrated A Christmas Story, from short stories about his childhood.
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Shepherd


I have recordings of pretty much all the Goon Show, ISIRTA and most of the 77 series of ISIHAC.

Roon works wonders with them  (but not metadata for them).  Let me know if you need your own copies.......


----------



## golfbravobravo

Paladin79 said:


> I have heard of it but that is all lol, I will try to check it out. Somewhere I have some recordings of the Goon Show starring Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan. I used to get that and ISIRTA on a university radio channel some years back so I did recordings. I am also a fan of an Indiana author whom it is said did the earliest talk radio show, Jean Shepherd. He co-scripted and narrated A Christmas Story, from short stories about his childhood.
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Shepherd


How could you omit Ned Seagoon?  (Harry Secombe)??????


----------



## geoffalter11

TLO said:


> Well, this is exactly my thought when I first started out on vintage tubes....peace of mind...LOL. Please allow me to share my experience here....as I have shared it somewhere, I will cut and paste here.
> 
> "FYI, I have bought my first piece of stated as new and unused RCA 5691 from a tube vendor who has been recommended by ppl in the forum. Guess what I get, a relabeled Sylvania in a white box. I have paid the listed price of USD199 for a piece not pair! Later, I bought another two pairs (lightly used or unused one RCA and one relabeled Sylvania in original boxes) for USD200-210 for each pair from Ebay. I get more pissed when I got my simple emission tester recently. I tested that Sylvania relabeled 5691 and found that both plates are very unbalanced, one side is even under 80%. This tube has not been used but tested for about 30 minutes when I first received it. So much for buying from recommended tube vendors. No but I would rather take my chances in Ebay based on my experience."
> 
> BTW, the plate that measured below 80% of this exact relabeled Sylvania 5691 died about 1 month after I shared my story. This tube has been used max. no more than 50 hours as I have been using Mullard ECC35 most of the time.


Thank you! So helpful.

Loving this thread thus far. I feel like Alice in Wonderland and the thread is telling me which pill to take. As Jefferson Airplane aptly sang, “One pill makes you smaller, the other makes you tall”


----------



## TLO (Feb 4, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> Thank you! So helpful.
> 
> Loving this thread thus far. I feel like Alice in Wonderland and the thread is telling me which pill to take. As Jefferson Airplane aptly sang, “One pill makes you smaller, the other makes you tall”


I know exactly what you meant...just dont know where or how to start, here.....

Try to study and recognize the look, dont have to take it as a test...lol
Take it slowly and just get a brief idea like what are the brands or makers, etc....
12AX7 : https://www.tubemongerlib.com/index.php?/category/5
6SN7 : https://www.tubemongerlib.com/index.php?/category/11

then, you might want to go back to page 1 in this thread and read those comments on various 6SN7s of their sonic characters as well as some useful recommendations.
Identification of 6SN7: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/
As for 12AX7, I hope someone will provide some useful lead as I dont use this tube or have much experience on it.


----------



## tafens

TLO said:


> Generally, you can briefly predict what kind of sellers they are with the helps of the way they listed their tubes, details, condition of the tubes they are selling. Since someone mentioned Viva Tubes, I will say it then, look at their listings, you will find that majority of their listings are of poor condition tubes. Another word, avoid at all cost, this vendor is a classic dumper at Ebay.


Viva tubes.. right. I bought a quad of matched  new production Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB from them. When I later got to actually using them, turned out three of the four were microphonic. By then too long time had passed to do anything about it. Lesson learnt..


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> I know exactly what you meant...just dont know where or how to start, here.....
> 
> Try to study and recognize the look, dont have to take it as a test...lol
> Take it slowly and just get a brief idea like what are the brands or makers, etc....
> ...


Great minds think alike.  😂  I was just about to recommend these from Pulse (part of TubeMonger):

https://pulsetubestore.com/products...dplug-play-ready-to-use-m-pairs-quads-singles

Admittedly I have NOT heard the 12AX7's, but if they are anything like the CV4033's (12AT7) and CV4034's (12AU7) that I got from Pulse, they should be quite enjoyable.  Note that the CV4033, CV4034, and CV4035 are flying lead tubes that Pulse attaches a standard 9-pin base to.  Their workmanship is superb.

The CV4033 in the Schiit Vali 2:


----------



## TLO

tafens said:


> Viva tubes.. right. I bought a quad of matched  new production Tung-Sol 6SN7 GTB from them. When I later got to actually using them, turned out three of the four were microphonic. By then too long time had passed to do anything about it. Lesson learnt..


Some ppl might think that these incidents are coincidence but I dont. I am old enough to have a decent share of meeting nasty ppl in this world in my life...LOL. You are from Sweden, if they dont screw you or I, halfway around the world in Singapore, who can they screw?


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Great minds think alike.  😂  I was just about to recommend these from Pulse (part of TubeMonger):
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...dplug-play-ready-to-use-m-pairs-quads-singles
> 
> ...


Dang they be some pricey tubes.


----------



## TLO (Feb 4, 2022)

Talking about 12AX7, does anyone have experiences in rolling 12AX7 on 6SL7? I have rolled a pair of ECC34 on 6SN7 but ECC34's gain is too low at 11.5 compared to 20 on 6SN7. I am thinking perhaps the high gain of 100 from 12AX7 might solve the problem. Please advise if anyone knows, thank you!!!
Or if anyone knows of a better alternative to be used on 6SL7 with high gain, please advise. Again, thanks!!!


----------



## rawheadjim

These Raytheon's look like they might be worth the price and seem to have good reviews from what I can find on this thread.  The dealer's feedback is all 100% and glowing like a warm tube.  He also has some JAN CBS Hytrons for $350 and "real" JAN Sylvania Bad Boys for $297, but these are in my price range at $167, what do you think?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284635555294?hash=item424599e5de:g:PwUAAOSwQIZh-hp7


----------



## TLO (Feb 4, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> These Raytheon's look like they might be worth the price and seem to have good reviews from what I can find on this thread.  The dealer's feedback is all 100% and glowing like a warm tube.  He also has some JAN CBS Hytrons for $350 and "real" JAN Sylvania Bad Boys for $297, but these are in my price range at $167, what do you think?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/284635555294?hash=item424599e5de:g:PwUAAOSwQIZh-hp7


Cant comment on RT 6SN7WGT as I havent tried them but just wanted to say seller, igolioto, is a great seller to deal with. Have bought 3 or 4 pairs of VT231 from him. All in mint condition, tested near or above 100%. His pricings are a bit on the high side though.


----------



## geoffalter11

rawheadjim said:


> These Raytheon's look like they might be worth the price and seem to have good reviews from what I can find on this thread.  The dealer's feedback is all 100% and glowing like a warm tube.  He also has some JAN CBS Hytrons for $350 and "real" JAN Sylvania Bad Boys for $297, but these are in my price range at $167, what do you think?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/284635555294?hash=item424599e5de:g:PwUAAOSwQIZh-hp7


They look good. What amp you putting them in?


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 4, 2022)

TLO said:


> Cant comment on RT 6SN7WGT as I havent tried them but just wanted to say seller, igolioto, is a great seller to deal with. Have bought 3 or 4 pairs of VT231 from him. All in mint condition, tested near or above 100%. His pricings are a bit on the high side though.


I will vouch for _‘igolioto’ _as well. My purchase items have been => described, very well packed, and delivered promptly.⭐️⭐️⭐️


----------



## rawheadjim

The would be my gain tubes for a Freya+ and I want some midrange that oozes out of my speakers like warm maple syrup.  So far, I've spent $64 for these:  Sylvania 6SN7GTB "Chrome Dome" Angled T Plate Tubes *PLATINUM MATCH on AT1000* and $90 for these:  CBS Hytron 6SN7GT VACUUM TUBES Bad Boy Plate 105% NOS Matched PLATINUM PLUS 1955.  After a week with each pair, I'm not really blown away though!


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> The would be my gain tubes for a Freya+ and *I want some midrange that oozes out of my speakers like warm maple syrup. * So far, I've spent $64 for these:  Sylvania 6SN7GTB "Chrome Dome" Angled T Plate Tubes *PLATINUM MATCH on AT1000* and $90 for these:  CBS Hytron 6SN7GT VACUUM TUBES Bad Boy Plate 105% NOS Matched PLATINUM PLUS 1955.  After a week with each pair, I'm not really blown away though!


Then the Raytheons are probably not what you seek.  I prefer the T-plate versions to the flat ladder plates, but I would describe them both as riding the neutral fence, even being somewhat incisive with the ladder plates even more so (at least in my Schiit gear, although I don't have a Freya).  A 1940's or early '50's RCA gray glass or '40's / '50's Ken-Rad black glass may get you closer on the midrange you're after. Just my opinion....


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 4, 2022)

As painful as this is for me to admit, I  agree with @bcowen on his recommendation. 😒

(I really do need to check my carbon monoxide detectors.)


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> As painful as this is for me to admit, I  agree with @bcowen on his recommendation. 😒
> 
> *(I really do need to check my carbon monoxide detectors.)*


It's also possible your house is on fire.  And maybe _you're _on fire. Best check the smoke detectors too.


----------



## rawheadjim

What about this guy, piezo-man?  40's RCA gray glass matched for $110.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/304344568784?hash=item46dc5993d0:g:rxsAAOSwNJ9h~HNw


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
I don't know, it looks a bit strange.
I wouldn't buy it used.
I think the glass looks slightly milky, which could indicate that the tube is about to die.
I would look for others or at least ask for better pictures if money is tight.


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> What about this guy, piezo-man?  40's RCA gray glass matched for $110.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/304344568784?hash=item46dc5993d0:g:rxsAAOSwNJ9h~HNw


Not sure about those.  They may be just fine, but the gray coating on the inside of the glass in the ones I have is nearly opaque, much like this:


----------



## Ripper2860

They really should look more like this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234405697235?epid=1504045787&hash=item3693ab16d3:g:0zYAAOSwRFlh~GBg


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> They really should look more like this...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/234405697235?epid=1504045787&hash=item3693ab16d3:g:0zYAAOSwRFlh~GBg



This gray is grayer than your gray.  I win.


----------



## Ripper2860

🙄


----------



## bcowen

Enough of the Ebay screenshots (since I won )...here's the tube I have with the midrange to die for.  If I'm reading the date code right it's a 1944.


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> Enough of the Ebay screenshots (since I won )...here's the tube I have with the midrange to die for.  If I'm reading the date code right it's a 1944.


Look great. What will you use with?


----------



## bcowen

geoffalter11 said:


> Look great. What will you use with?


It sounded very nice in the Schiit Lyr 3 when I had it. I've changed amps since then to an Incubus (OTL) and haven't tried it there yet.  Currently jamming with a Tung Sol 5998 and '56 Melz 1578 (6SN7) in the Incubus....a righteous combo.


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> It sounded very nice in the Schiit Lyr 3 when I had it. I've changed amps since then to an Incubus (OTL) and haven't tried it there yet.  Currently jamming with a Tung Sol 5998 and '56 Melz 1578 (6SN7) in the Incubus....a righteous combo.


Looking up the Incubus OTL right now. Curious, never heard of it.

My CFA3 is supposed to arrive today. FedEx of course has delays. Ugh! 4 plus months of waiting.


----------



## bcowen

geoffalter11 said:


> Looking up the Incubus OTL right now. Curious, never heard of it.
> 
> My CFA3 is supposed to arrive today. FedEx of course has delays. Ugh! 4 plus months of waiting.


The Incubus was made by fellow HeadFi'er @Paladin79 .  Below with a Cetron 7236 and a tube that should look familiar.    

The CFA3 looks quite interesting.  But no tubes?!?


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> The Incubus was made by fellow HeadFi'er @Paladin79 .  Below with a Cetron 7236 and a tube that should look familiar.
> 
> The CFA3 looks quite interesting.  But no tubes?!?


No tubes. It is a Kevin Gilmore Dynalo Circuit. It has the GRLV Power Supply and 16 watts at 50 ohms. Can’t wait! My Code X needs SS, my Auteur tubes!


----------



## jonathan c

Please note that the Incubus (aka Incvbvs) owned by @bcowen is orthogonal: its chassis is sideways and is unique. [I call it the Sidecubus]. Being fair-minded, I can see *an* advantage to the ‘laterally challenged’ orientation: it is _very_ accommodating to adapters such as (2 x 6J5) —> 6SN7. 


See bcowen!…there is a method to your madness 😄🤪…and I recognise both…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Please note that the Incubus (aka Incvbvs) owned by @bcowen is orthogonal: its chassis is sideways and is unique. [I call it the Sidecubus]. Being fair-minded, I can see *an* advantage to the ‘laterally challenged’ orientation: it is _very_ accommodating to adapters such as (2 x 6J5) —> 6SN7. See bcowen!…there is a method to your madness 😄🤪…and I recognise both…


ROFL!  But this is sooooo obvious.  If the Incubus was in standard configuration, the Bifrost would be sideways. The Sidecubus is actually Frontcubus when paired with pieces of Schiit.  🤣🤣


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 4, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Enough of the Ebay screenshots (since I won )...here's the tube I have with the midrange to die for.  If I'm reading the date code right it's a 1944.


Pffft.  A 1943?  Close but no cigar. My 1942 RCA sounds  splendifirous!  😏


BTW - Bill's person Incubus amp is secretly referred to as the 'Dumbasscubus' by the HF community. 

Ooops.  Sorry.  I guess it's not a secret any longer.  😜


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Pffft.  A 1943?  Close but no cigar. My 1942 RCA sounds  splendifirous!  😏


Prior to 1943, RCA tubes were made by GE.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ken-rad...


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 4, 2022)

bcowen said:


> The Incubus was made by fellow HeadFi'er @Paladin79 .  Below with a Cetron 7236 and a tube that should look familiar.
> 
> The CFA3 looks quite interesting.  But no tubes?!?


The Incubus Elegan…..elegant nightmare.

I am taking a break from building them but I do have a loaner in Texas at the moment. Several people here have them but many went to local audiophiles. I want to build one for my son, here is one I kept for myself, and one for a friend. My design, no two alike. Bill’s is “special”. 😜


----------



## FLTWS

Paladin79 said:


> The Incubus Elegan…..elegant nightmare


I like the Cetron's, managed to find 2 true NOS 2 years ago. Went back shortly after to get to more but the case was sold out.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> I like the Cetron's, managed to find 2 true NOS 2 years ago. Went back shortly after to get to more but the case was sold out.


Which Cetron?  7236?


----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


> I like the Cetron's, managed to find 2 true NOS 2 years ago. Went back shortly after to get to more but the case was sold out.


I own at least two, higher gain and an interesting listen.


----------



## FLTWS (Feb 4, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Which Cetron?  7236?


Yes. I remember the ad on ebay had a picture of the full case the guy had, apparently never opened till he came across it. Paid $40.00 each.
Knowing what I now know I would have bought the whole case. Found the pics.


----------



## DenverW

Paladin79 said:


> I own at least two, higher gain and an interesting listen.


Agreed.  I used to not like them but I've come around a bit after exploring some other pairings.  I find them a bit analytical and slightly cold, but with a warmer input tube they're not bad at all.  I'm finding I like them more than the gec 6080 when given the right love.


----------



## TLO (Feb 5, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> The would be my gain tubes for a Freya+ and I want some midrange that oozes out of my speakers like warm maple syrup.  So far, I've spent $64 for these:  Sylvania 6SN7GTB "Chrome Dome" Angled T Plate Tubes *PLATINUM MATCH on AT1000* and $90 for these:  CBS Hytron 6SN7GT VACUUM TUBES Bad Boy Plate 105% NOS Matched PLATINUM PLUS 1955.  After a week with each pair, I'm not really blown away though!


Have you tried TS 6C8G BGRP? Give them a try, amazing sound.



Or ECC40...look for disc getter only, factory code 4 or 5 (Eindhoven) or + (Sittard)



Another great tube to roll is Mullard ECC31 but make sure your amp can handle the current


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> Agreed.  I used to not like them but I've come around a bit after exploring some other pairings.  I find them a bit analytical and slightly cold, but with a warmer input tube they're not bad at all.  I'm finding I like them more than the gec 6080 when given the right love.


Hmmmm....I hear the same things you do.  Maybe a prime opportunity to plug that gray glass RCA in with it and see what happens.


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Have you tried TS 6C8G BGRP? Give them a try, amazing sound.
> 
> Or ECC40...look for disc getter only, factory code 4 or 5 (Eindhoven) or + (Sittard)
> 
> Another great tube to roll is Mullard ECC31 but make sure your amp can handle the current


Nice looking amp!  And way coolness with the 805's.  But wait...an 805 should have a plate cap up top.  Have those been reconfigured by PSVane to use the 4th base pin instead of the top connection? Or are those 845's (or something else)?


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> Nice looking amp!  And way coolness with the 805's.  But wait...an 805 should have a plate cap up top.  Have those been reconfigured by PSVane to use the 4th base pin instead of the top connection? Or are those 845's (or something else)?


They called it 805 but in fact it is 838 without the external wire.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Hmmmm....I hear the same things you do.  Maybe a prime opportunity to plug that gray glass RCA in with it and see what happens.


That warm, lush, RCA sound of the 40's and 50's could be seductive.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> Agreed.  I used to not like them but I've come around a bit after exploring some other pairings.  I find them a bit analytical and slightly cold, but with a warmer input tube they're not bad at all.  I'm finding I like them more than the gec 6080 when given the right love.


I do not generally run Melz with the 7236’s, I am more apt to use a TS BGRP or even an RCA black glass. The Melz are overkill with such a tube IMHO.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 5, 2022)

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  But this is sooooo obvious.  If the Incubus was in standard configuration, the Bifrost would be sideways. The Sidecubus is actually Frontcubus when paired with pieces of Schiit.  🤣🤣


I may construct one more sideways but I am likely to center the transformer and have the tubes farther apart so it looks more reasonable.   Please note which 6sn7 equivalent Bill is actually running, the man is starting to learn, slowly, but there is some progress. Here is the same amp on my original mini rack. I use copper and cherry throughout my audio racks.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may construct one more sideways but I am likely to center the transformer and have the tubes farther apart so it looks more reasonable.   Please note which 6sn7 equivalent Bill is actually running, the man is starting to learn, slowly, but there is some progress. Here is the same amp on my original mini rack. I use copper and cherry throughout my audio racks.


LOL!  I may (_may_, mind you) put in an actual 6SN7 today. The '56 Melz had to go to the hospital and is scheduled for surgery after it started sputtering in the left channel yesterday. Dr. Cowen will operate with a somewhat not unreasonable chance of success. 😂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I may (_may_, mind you) put in an actual 6SN7 today. The '56 Melz had to go to the hospital and is scheduled for surgery after it started sputtering in the left channel yesterday. Dr. Cowen will operate with a somewhat not unreasonable chance of success. 😂


Well I did try to send it to you in the condition I received it with few hours on it. I put it in a box and mailed it, I did my part lol.

 You best not be playing Marilyn Manson through that tube, there are limits to the amount of noise a tube can withstand.


----------



## rawheadjim

Thanks for all the helpful info and the tip on these for $79, I'm ordering them now!  6SN7GT RCA radio amplifier JAN CRC


----------



## Pondoro

rawheadjim said:


> Thanks for all the helpful info and the tip on these for $79, I'm ordering them now!  6SN7GT RCA radio amplifier JAN CRC


What vendor did you choose?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well I did try to send it to you in the condition I received it with few hours on it. I put it in a box and mailed it, I did my part lol.
> 
> You best not be playing Marilyn Manson through that tube, there are limits to the amount of noise a tube can withstand.


The surgery was successful, and the patient is now in the recovery room letting the new solder break in.  

No Manson...I saw this instead, and for better or worse it immediately made me think of @Ripper2860 🤣


----------



## rawheadjim

I followed the link from Ripper to the ad on ebay, seller is 00feedman.  He has 100% positive feedback, I know that's not always indicative of a safe seller.  The comments were super positive also, and his prices from past sales looked good.  I was happy to try them for $79, plus he had a 10% coupon for most of his items including these.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 5, 2022)

bcowen said:


> No Manson...I saw this instead, and for better or worse it immediately made me think of @Ripper2860 🤣



If you mean on 'Permanent Vacation', then I can see where accomplishing things and making it look easy could make it look like I'm on vacay.

As far as 'Looking Like a Lady', I did rock a mean mullet in the 80s, but I also rocked a stash and beard.  If you would have taken the time at the 'Tube Hoarder Christmas Party' to engage in conversation as opposed to inflicting a most unwelcome 'goosing' before I could turn around, you'd know this dude most definitely does NOT look like a lady or a cute one, at the very least


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> The surgery was successful, and the patient is now in the recovery room letting the new solder break in.
> 
> No Manson...I saw this instead, and for better or worse it immediately made me _give up my search for a forty hour a week job ! ….😴…_


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> As far as 'Looking Like a Lady', I did rock a mean mullet in the *2010's*, but I also rocked a stash and beard. If you would have taken the time at the 'Tube Hoarder Christmas Party' to engage in conversation as opposed to inflicting a most unwelcome 'goosing' before I could turn around, you'd know this dude most definitely does NOT look like a lady or a cute one, at the very least


FTFY,  'cause the first Tube Hoarder Christmas Party I went to was in 2019.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 5, 2022)

Well, you were actually working the bar and not an actual attendee. 

And mullets are never out of style, btw.  😏


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, you were actually working the bar and not an actual attendee.
> 
> And mullets are never out of style, btw.  😏


…are you a member of mullets for mullard?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


Who woke you up?  Go pick on someone more deserving, like @UntilThen or someone.  🤣😂


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, you were actually working the bar and not an actual attendee.
> 
> And mullets are never out of style *in Texas*, btw.  😏


FTFY.  Again.  Sigh.


----------



## Ripper2860

We Texans are ahead of the fashion curve and trend resetters.     😏


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> We Texans are ahead of the fashion curve and trend resetters.     😏


…with a texas tuxedo, you would be a frightful sight on the runway (or anywhere!):


----------



## Ripper2860

You sir, have validated the fact that Texans are fashion-forward and trendsetters having absolutely no regard for established norms.  👍


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> You sir, have validated the fact that Texans are fashion-_blind _and trendsetters having absolutely no regard for _looking good._  👎


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You sir, have validated the fact that Texans are fashion-forward and trendsetters having absolutely no regard for established norms.  👍


You guys have unique swimming pools too. Big enough for the whole (immediate) family.  😎


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> You guys have unique swimming pools too. Big enough for the whole (immediate) family.  😎


If you cannot get to the Rio Grande, bring the Rio Grande to home…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If you cannot get to the Rio Grande, bring the Rio Grande to home…


Except in Texas, it's usually much easier to take your home to the Rio Grande...


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Who woke you up?  Go pick on someone more deserving, like @UntilThen or someone.  🤣😂


He can’t. I use a boomerang.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You guys have unique swimming pools too. Big enough for the whole (immediate) family.  😎


Go Big or Go Home is the unofficial Texas motto.  Sadly no one is going home.  😒


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> He can’t. I use a boomerang.


It only works within one hemisphere 🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Go Big or Go Home is the unofficial Texas motto.  Sadly no one is going home.  😒


ERCOT…..everyone really can outdo texas…😂


----------



## Ripper2860

And yet they still want to live  here. 😜


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> And yet they still _therefore _want to live here. 😜


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 5, 2022)

It's amazing what folks are willing to overlook to be a Texan.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> FTFY.  Again.  Sigh.



You can install FTFY blocker, just like ads blocker.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> You can install FTFY blocker, just like ads blocker.


What about auto-FTFY or robo-FTFY?….think of the copyright royalties that bcowen could pull in….he wouldn’t have to caddy for you. [At least club selection ==> score would improve…]


----------



## jonathan c

•  It’s a good thing that this is the reference 6SN7 _*Thread*_. That allows for the inevitable meandering, weaving from topic to topic.
•  Where else can I learn / post about southwestern US states, southwestern couture, fashion, architectural abominations…and 6SN7s / 6N8Ss / etc ?


----------



## DougD

jonathan c said:


> •  It’s a good thing that this is the reference 6SN7 _*Thread*_. That allows for the inevitable meandering, weaving from topic to topic.
> •  Where else can I learn / post about southwestern US states, southwestern couture, fashion, architectural abominations…and 6SN7s / 6N8Ss / etc ?


Well, since you ask, the main place for all of that would of course be the "Schiit Happened" thread. 88,155 posts and counting. There's so many sub-topics there they have to manage it with sine curve schema.


----------



## jonathan c

DougD said:


> Well, since you ask, the main place for all of that would of course be the "Schiit Happened" thread. 88,155 posts and counting. There's so many sub-topics there they have to manage it with sine curve schema.


I wasn’t thinking of the number of posts _per se_ but of the ‘distance astray’ that some of the 6SN7 posts (_mea culpa,_ too) actually go….🤣🤣🤣.


----------



## Paladin79

DougD said:


> Well, since you ask, the main place for all of that would of course be the "Schiit Happened" thread. 88,155 posts and counting. There's so many sub-topics there they have to manage it with sine curve schema.


I do enjoy the freedom of being able to discuss a variety of topics. I own plenty of Schiit gear and only buy tube products at this time so it is hard for me to get interested in other products. I have worked with Jason on a couple things. Same holds true here, I am not sure there are many 6sn7 or equivalents I have not heard so it is always nice to move on to other topics.


----------



## Pondoro

jonathan c said:


> •  It’s a good thing that this is the reference 6SN7 _*Thread*_. That allows for the inevitable meandering, weaving from topic to topic.
> •  Where else can I learn / post about southwestern US states, southwestern couture, fashion, architectural abominations…and 6SN7s / 6N8Ss / etc ?


On another forum someone praised Jason for his honest and humble discussion in his Head-Fi thread, but then complained that the thread was diluted with discussion of coffee, BBQ, etc. I am one of the guilty…


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I do enjoy the freedom of being able to discuss a variety of topics. I own plenty of Schiit gear and only buy tube products at this time so it is hard for me to get interested in other products. I have worked with Jason on a couple things. Same holds true here, I am not sure there are many 6sn7 or equivalents I have not heard so it is always nice to move on to other topics.


Since we're talking Schiit and 6SN7s…
Wanna mod my Vali2 to a 6SN7 based, 0 negative feedback amp?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Since we're talking Schiit and 6SN7s…
> Wanna mod my Vali2 to a 6SN7 based, 0 negative feedback amp?


Nope, buy an adapter like the rest of us did lol.


----------



## Pondoro

Paladin79 said:


> Nope, buy an adapter like the rest of us did lol.


Is an adapter enough? Leaving out all the variation of different 6SN7 tubes, what basic effects would happen going from the original tube to a 6SN7 in a Vali? I rolled my original Vali tube for an Electroharmonix. The upper bass got clearer, I did not notice a lot of other difference.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 6, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> Is an adapter enough? Leaving out all the variation of different 6SN7 tubes, what basic effects would happen going from the original tube to a 6SN7 in a Vali? I rolled my original Vali tube for an Electroharmonix. The upper bass got clearer, I did not notice a lot of other difference.


An adapter is enough, several of us checked with Jason to be sure the Vali could handle the higher filament current draw of the 6sn7 and it does. Here I am using 6sn7 adapters as well as 6j5 adapters. 6j5 are single triode tubes whose specs match a 6sn7 when combined.

Personally I prefer the 6sn7 sound but I am very specific on which tubes I use to achieve that sound. I preferred 6sn7's in BH Cracks and in the Vali YMMV.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Nope, buy an adapter like the rest of us did lol.


There's adapters that remove negative feedback?


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> There's adapters that remove negative feedback?


Nope but see, there are no schematics out on Jason's designs so trying to change his circuitry is not something I would want to try to do nor would I do. It is easy to make a 6sn7 work though lol.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Nope but see, there are no schematics out on Jason's designs so trying to change his circuitry is not something I would want to try to do nor would I do. It is easy to make a 6sn7 work though lol.


Indeed. I do have the adapters needed. Adapters being the bad word. 6CG7 or, even better ECC40 work as good (or better) without a totem pole of adapters. Unless you're into that sort of thing…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Since we're talking Schiit and 6SN7s…
> Wanna mod my Vali2 to a 6SN7 based, 0 negative feedback amp?


Good luck getting that octal socket to fit on the main board. 

This one is even more of a challenge, but where there's a will....   🤣🤣


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> Good luck getting that octal socket to fit on the main board.
> 
> This one is even more of a challenge, but where there's a will....   🤣🤣


Wow, the filament current of that probably would make the whole amp glow..


----------



## bcowen (Feb 6, 2022)

tafens said:


> Wow, the filament current of that probably would make the whole amp glow..


Well, if the Vali 2 can handle the 600 milliamps of a 6SN7, it hopefully also has enough headroom to handle 3250.


----------



## Pondoro

Paladin79 said:


> An adapter is enough, several of us checked with Jason to be sure the Vali could handle the higher filament current draw of the 6sn7 and it does. Here I am using 6sn7 adapters as well as 6j5 adapters. 6j5 are single triode tubes whose specs match a 6sn7 when combined.
> 
> Personally I prefer the 6sn7 sound but I am very specific on which tubes I use to achieve that sound. I preferred 6sn7's in BH Cracks and in the Vali YMMV.


Which 6SN7 do you prefer in the Vali? I am not interested in spending $150 to improve the sound of a $149 preamp. The downstream system is either powered Klipsch speakers augmented by a small powered subwoofer or a low powered tube amp driving a variety of speakers. I like the Saga with the stock 6SN7. I replaced the stock Vali tube with an Electroharmonix 6922 / E88CC that cost $17 and was a slight improvement. I would consider other 6SN7's for the Vali or the Saga, but nit to the tune of investing $hundreds. I am not looking for the holy grail, but I am curious what $25-$40 would do. The Saga also drives a tube amp and a variety of speakers.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 7, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> Which 6SN7 do you prefer in the Vali? I am not interested in spending $150 to improve the sound of a $149 preamp. The downstream system is either powered Klipsch speakers augmented by a small powered subwoofer or a low powered tube amp driving a variety of speakers. I like the Saga with the stock 6SN7. I replaced the stock Vali tube with an Electroharmonix 6922 / E88CC that cost $17 and was a slight improvement. I would consider other 6SN7's for the Vali or the Saga, but nit to the tune of investing $hundreds. I am not looking for the holy grail, but I am curious what $25-$40 would do. The Saga also drives a tube amp and a variety of speakers.


For the lower price range, a Foton from the early fifty’s is decent. I run 6sn7's in a lot of equipment so I never bought one specifically for a Vali 2.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Pondoro said:


> Which 6SN7 do you prefer in the Vali? I am not interested in spending $150 to improve the sound of a $149 preamp. The downstream system is either powered Klipsch speakers augmented by a small powered subwoofer or a low powered tube amp driving a variety of speakers. I like the Saga with the stock 6SN7. I replaced the stock Vali tube with an Electroharmonix 6922 / E88CC that cost $17 and was a slight improvement. I would consider other 6SN7's for the Vali or the Saga, but nit to the tune of investing $hundreds. I am not looking for the holy grail, but I am curious what $25-$40 would do. The Saga also drives a tube amp and a variety of speakers.


I recently bought a very very nice KenRad clear glass staggered plate 6SN7 branded with common RCA graphics for $25. Be patient and learn to sift through the trash you can spot gems occasionally.


----------



## jonathan c

Two more Russian tubes seeking asylum in my headphone amplifiers:


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Two more Russian tubes seeking asylum in my headphone amplifiers:


Original boxes and pristine condition. Not the most priced Melz but a good addition.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Two more Russian tubes seeking asylum in my headphone amplifiers:


Those are really good sounding tubes.  Different sound than the Fotons, but very enjoyable.  And what superb condition!  Those look like they came out of a time capsule.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

jonathan c said:


> Please note that the Incubus (aka Incvbvs) owned by @bcowen is orthogonal: its chassis is sideways and is unique. [I call it the Sidecubus]. Being fair-minded, I can see *an* advantage to the ‘laterally challenged’ orientation: it is _very_ accommodating to adapters such as (2 x 6J5) —> 6SN7. See bcowen!…there is a method to your madness 😄🤪…and I recognise both…



@Paladin79 What brand is that knob on your amp? I recently tried an Audio Note knob and I am not that happy with it. Looking for alternatives.


----------



## Paladin79

CaptainFantastic said:


> @Paladin79 What brand is that knob on your amp? I recently tried an Audio Note knob and I am not that happy with it. Looking for alternatives.


I want to say the DIYAudio store, each of my amps is different and that was a couple years ago. 

https://diyaudiostore.com/products/...=1&_sid=62efedfb0&_ss=r&variant=6941970202658

I will look through my shop later and maybe I will find a duplicate lol.


----------



## Pondoro

Ranger Ron said:


> I recently bought a very very nice KenRad clear glass staggered plate 6SN7 branded with common RCA graphics for $25. Be patient and learn to sift through the trash you can spot gems occasionally.


What is "KenRad"?  I see a lot of them. All the Fotons are from Russia or Ukraina. I ran a business in Poland and did business in the Czech Republic and Romania. What I saw of Russia and Ukraina made me leery of buying anything from those countries if I could not inspect it first. How do you know which sellers are worth trusting? (Admittedly I will be risking $25 or so, it's not a mortgage payment.)


----------



## bcowen (Feb 7, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> What is "KenRad"?  I see a lot of them. All the Fotons are from Russia or Ukraina. I ran a business in Poland and did business in the Czech Republic and Romania. What I saw of Russia and Ukraina made me leery of buying anything from those countries if I could not inspect it first. How do you know which sellers are worth trusting? (Admittedly I will be risking $25 or so, it's not a mortgage payment.)


KenRad is short for Kentucky Radio that made tubes in Owensboro, Kentucky up until 1945 when they were purchased by GE.  They made some great sounding tubes in their day.


----------



## David222 (Feb 8, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> What is "KenRad"?  I see a lot of them. All the Fotons are from Russia or Ukraina. I ran a business in Poland and did business in the Czech Republic and Romania. What I saw of Russia and Ukraina made me leery of buying anything from those countries if I could not inspect it first. How do you know which sellers are worth trusting? (Admittedly I will be risking $25 or so, it's not a mortgage payment.)



Well, generally speaking you can trust ebay seller 1985Max, but Keyser Söze, not so much 

Here are some Ken-Rad VT-231. The Grey Glass sold out a few weeks ago. Not sure if the clear are as "good". Others here can better advise.


----------



## Ranger Ron

David222 said:


> Well, generally speaking you can trust ebay seller 1985Max, but Keyser Söze, not so much
> 
> Here are some Ken-Rad VT-231. The Grey Glass sold out a few weeks ago. Not sure if the clear are as "good". Others here can better advise.





David222 said:


> Well, generally speaking you can trust ebay seller 1985Max, but Keyser Söze, not so much
> 
> Here are some Ken-Rad VT-231. The Grey Glass sold out a few weeks ago. Not sure if the clear are as "good". Others here can better advise.


They never made a grey glass 6sn7.  Some argue the black glass sound better. In my experience the clear sound about the same, very good,  but the black have an edge in visual appeal 🤷🏾‍♂️


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 8, 2022)

Ranger Ron said:


> They never made a grey glass 6sn7.  Some argue the black glass sound better. In my experience the clear sound about the same, very good,  but the black have an edge in visual appeal 🤷🏾‍♂️



Odd, I do believe I have seen a couple grey.  In my humble testing the black glass did come out higher than the clear glass or grey glass but not by a lot. We even found differences in versions of the black glass so it really depends on which black glass is heard.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/114915830112?hash=item1ac1846960:g:4QIAAOSwIPdhBhdx
> 
> Odd, I would consider this grey.  In my humble testing the black glass did come out higher than the clear glass or grey glass but not by a lot. We even found differences in versions of the black glass so it really depends on which black glass is heard.


I’m sure that tube is rebranded.


----------



## Paladin79

Ranger Ron said:


> I’m sure that tube is rebranded.


It is a 6n7GT, I was rushing to find a photo and just skimmed the add. I will look through my stash later and see if I kept one myself.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is a 6n7GT, I was rushing to find a photo and just skimmed the add. I will look through my stash later and see if I kept one myself.


Here's some black 'glass' 6SN7's.  Really, _really_ opaque glass too.  😂😂


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 8, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Here's some black 'glass' 6SN7's.  Really, _really_ opaque glass too. 😂😂


Those almost look like the metal CJ5s…😳


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Here's some black 'glass' 6SN7's.  Really, _really_ opaque glass too. 😂😂


There were some with more opaque black and translucent black. It has been a while since my group went through these we may have called these grey to differentiate them from the true black. It does not matter in my testing though, we did not want several representatives of very similar tubes so a specific black glass that scored the highest made our top 52 tubes. Same way with Melz 1578's, many years look alike but did not sound the same to our ears so we were very selective in which year and type we allowed.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Those almost look like the metal CJ5s…😳


I think I have a couple 6SN7 tin cans in the stash. Will have to do a database query to verify though which will take a couple hours to run.  😂


----------



## Ranger Ron

Not a 6SN7 but I am curious if anyone has any experience with this tube? I am really enjoying them. KenRad 6C8G


----------



## David222 (Feb 8, 2022)

Ranger Ron said:


> They never made a grey glass 6sn7.  Some argue the black glass sound better. In my experience the clear sound about the same, very good,  but the black have an edge in visual appeal 🤷🏾‍♂️



You were correct (at least about my pair). Was late when I posted.  I try not to see color


----------



## Paladin79

Ranger Ron said:


> Not a 6SN7 but I am curious if anyone has any experience with this tube? I am really enjoying them. KenRad 6C8G


I have certainly heard them but it has been a while.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Here's some black 'glass' 6SN7's.  Really, _really_ opaque glass too.  😂😂


----------



## bcowen

Ranger Ron said:


> Not a 6SN7 but I am curious if anyone has any experience with this tube? I am really enjoying them. KenRad 6C8G


Yup.  And I like the Ken-Rad better than the National Union personally. I don't have any, but would really like to hear the Tung Sol black glass round plate 6C8G at some point.  Prices are on the high side though.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

jonathan c said:


> Those almost look like the metal CJ5s…😳



How are these tubes? Would you recommend it for a different 6J5 sound or nothing special?


----------



## Ranger Ron

bcowen said:


> Yup.  And I like the Ken-Rad better than the National Union personally. I don't have any, but would really like to hear the Tung Sol black glass round plate 6C8G at some point.  Prices are on the high side though.


Nice! The Tung-Sol are fantastic. Incredibly spacious. I have not tried the NU.


----------



## jonathan c

CaptainFantastic said:


> How are these tubes? Would you recommend it for a different 6J5 sound or nothing special?


I am waiting for the ‘6J5+6J5’ adapter. I will be running the Lyr 3 through the gauntlet with the K-Rs, the GEC L3s, and others.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

jonathan c said:


> I am waiting for the ‘6J5+6J5’ adapter. I will be running the Lyr 3 through the gauntlet with the K-Rs, the GEC L3s, and others.



Thanks. Does anyone else have the metal K Rad 6J5s? How are they?


----------



## bcowen (Feb 8, 2022)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. Does anyone else have the metal K Rad 6J5s? How are they?


I don't have the 6J5's, but have a pair of the 6C5's.  They are very nice sounding, especially considering the price I paid and that they can still be had for cheap. I've never compared them to a KR 6J5, but the 6C5 and 6J5 are _very_ close electrically.


----------



## cgb3

jonathan c said:


> Those almost look like the metal CJ5s…😳


The quarter grain oak looks much better than the tube. Salute.


----------



## paradoxper (Feb 9, 2022)

Gurus: are the MELZ 1578 perforated a good match with the regulars? Or perhaps perforated years match more ideal? I have a few more 50's and a pair of I believe 63's.

I'm rolling 1578 perforated with Hytron and it's kicking my teeth in. Stronger bass response than just the CFA3 which says something but I feel I'm losing a bit too much decay characteristic which I've been immensely enjoying with the larger stage of the 1266 TC.

Want to avoid the 'too much of a good thing' but I also can't be helped.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Gurus: are the MELZ 1578 perforated a good match with the regulars? Or perhaps perforated years match more ideal? I have a few more 50's and a pair of I believe 63's.
> 
> I'm rolling 1578 perforated with Hytron and it's kicking my teeth in. Stronger bass response than just the CFA3 which says something but I feel I'm losing a bit too much decay characteristic which I've been immensely enjoying with the larger stage of the 1266 TC.
> 
> Want to avoid the 'too much of a good thing' but I also can't be helped.ya


I have not tried the perforated with the regulars myself, I figure you are talking about a Freya. I generally only use Hytrons or 1578's on the right side of the Freya, on the left I am happy with Sylvanias, RCA's, or even Raytheon.


----------



## Deleeh (Feb 10, 2022)

Hello,
Got my Foton 6sn7 yesterday from Ebay and today put it in the Feliks Euforia together with the Svetlana 6AS7G.
Oouff so for the money quite a positive accurate surprise what they offers.
I didn't think she had so much charm and openness.
Let's see how she will do after a few hours of burn-in.


----------



## DTgill

Can someone tell me anything about this tube? A long shot I know there really aren't any numbers other than Motorola made in USA.

It came in with a bunch of tubes I bought, several months back, I'm just getting around to testing it.


----------



## bcowen

DTgill said:


> Can someone tell me anything about this tube? A long shot I know there really aren't any numbers other than Motorola made in USA.
> 
> It came in with a bunch of tubes I bought, several months back, I'm just getting around to testing it.


Hard to tell for sure, but from what I _can _see it looks like a gray glass RCA that would be from the '40's or '50's.  Really nice sounding tube (to my ears) if that's truly what it is.


----------



## musicman59

bcowen said:


> Hard to tell for sure, but from what I _can _see it looks like a gray glass RCA that would be from the '40's or '50's.  Really nice sounding tube (to my ears) if that's truly what it is.


I agree with you. That’s what it looks like.


----------



## DTgill

bcowen said:


> Hard to tell for sure, but from what I _can _see it looks like a gray glass RCA that would be from the '40's or '50's.  Really nice sounding tube (to my ears) if that's truly what it is.


Yes, it does sound nice with my Lyr3


----------



## bcowen

DTgill said:


> Yes, it does sound nice with my Lyr3


If it's warm-balanced with lots of bloom and body in the midrange, that's probably what it is.  Nice score if you got it for cheap!


----------



## Mr Trev

So do these grey/black glass constructions have any effect on the sound or is it (as best as I can gather) just a misguided attempt to shield them from RFI


----------



## DTgill

bcowen said:


> If it's warm-balanced with lots of bloom and body in the midrange, that's probably what it is.  Nice score if you got it for cheap!


Yep, cheap for 24 untested tubes around 80 bucks, gave half a dozen of them to a friend who has a tube tester. 
I didn't want to plug any of them in without knowing that they wouldn't kill my toys...


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> So do these grey/black glass constructions have any effect on the sound or is it (as best as I can gather) just a misguided attempt to shield them from RFI


AFAIK, the shielding was what it was intended for.  Of course back then the FCC was still in its infancy and there were far fewer (if any) regulations on what RF components could spew out, so perhaps there was some benefit back then.  Just guessing though.


----------



## tafens

Mr Trev said:


> So do these grey/black glass constructions have any effect on the sound or is it (as best as I can gather) just a misguided attempt to shield them from RFI


I think it’s supposed to improve the tube characteristics by equalising the negative charge that could be built up on the inside of the glass by stray electrons. Some new production tubes also have a coating on the inside to this effect.


----------



## TLO

DTgill said:


> Can someone tell me anything about this tube? A long shot I know there really aren't any numbers other than Motorola made in USA.
> 
> It came in with a bunch of tubes I bought, several months back, I'm just getting around to testing it.


This is early 50's RCA 6SN7GT. I have 3 pairs of early 40's and a pair of the popular VT231 (1944). Below is a pair of the early 40's, date code S (1942). You can see that the smoke is almost all the way down to the bottom.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 13, 2022)

TLO said:


> This is early 50's RCA 6SN7GT. I have 3 pairs of early 40's and a pair of the popular VT231 (1944). Below is a pair of the early 40's, date code S (1942). You can see that the smoke is almost all the way down to the bottom.


Any idea what the 180 (or is it 'I' 80?) stands for on the tube to the right?  The one on the left is 1944 (H3E), but I can't find any reference to a 1 or I as the first digit on the other one.


----------



## JTbbb

What year are these please?


----------



## bcowen (Feb 13, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> What year are these please?


1944. Yours were made sometime in Nov - Dec of 1944 and between Jan - Feb, 1944 respectively.  Mine was made in May - Jun.  Those are actually shipping dates, but it's presumable they were made only shortly before they shipped.


----------



## MacMan31

Any great recommendations for a Lyr 3? Is there 6SN7 socket savers?


----------



## DTgill

MacMan31 said:


> Any great recommendations for a Lyr 3? Is there 6SN7 socket savers?


eBay or Amazon, any place that sells tubes, I bought mine from eBay.


----------



## David222 (Feb 13, 2022)

MacMan31 said:


> Any great recommendations for a Lyr 3? Is there 6SN7 socket savers?



Would also suggest keeping an eye on HiFi Shark https://www.hifishark.com

It pulls results from ebay, as well as other forums such as US & Canada Audio Marts.  By way of example, here is a recent Lyr3  (Canada) that sold within ~48 hours.

* Note  --> I may have misinterpreted the question as looking for a Lyr3  vs. tubes for a Lyr3.  HiFi Shark can be a good reference / tool either way.


----------



## jonathan c

MacMan31 said:


> Any great recommendations for a Lyr 3? Is there 6SN7 socket savers?


----------



## LoryWiv

DTgill said:


> eBay or Amazon, any place that sells tubes, I bought mine from eBay.


Head-fi member @Deyan can make them. he does terrific work and is a pleasure to deal with.


----------



## LoryWiv (Feb 14, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> So do these grey/black glass constructions have any effect on the sound or is it (as best as I can gather) just a misguided attempt to shield them from RFI


I read somewhere that they were advantageous in wartime equipment use to shield the tube glow from enemy eyes, Could be mythology but kinda fun to think about.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> Any idea what the 180 (or is it 'I' 80?) stands for on the tube to the right?  The one on the left is 1944 (H3E), but I can't find any reference to a 1 or I as the first digit on the other one.


I am guessing RCA switched to all number code around the late 40's. We can also noticed that they have  changed the RCA logo from the famous meatball to the later one. The 1 should be 1951.


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> What year are these please?


These are the RCA codes I found online

Z - 1936
U - 1937
T - 1938
X - 1939
R - 1940
Y - 1941
S - 1942
K - 1943
H - 1944
V - 1945
F - 1946

1 - JAN-FEB
2 - MAR-APR
3 - MAY-JUN
4 - JUL-AUG
5 - SEP-OCT
6 - NOV-DEC

E stands for OEM


----------



## ostewart

Am I right in thinking these Rogers branded tubes (1960's) are very similar/the same as the Sylvania 6SN7GTB?


----------



## TLO (Feb 14, 2022)

ostewart said:


> Am I right in thinking these Rogers branded tubes (1960's) are very similar/the same as the Sylvania 6SN7GTB?


I am afraid I cant comment on the sonic similarities or differences between this and SYL 6SN7 GTB, as I have no experience on this tube. Nevertheless, I just wanted to point out that the construction is identical to SYL 6SN7 WGT or early SYL 6SN7 WGTA, and not SYL 6SN7 GTB. Note the 3 holes T-Plate and especially the umbrella spokes. Later SYL 6SN7 GTA and SYL 6SN7 GTB have the same angled T-Plate or Y-Plate.


----------



## rawheadjim

I just got these last week for $72 after someone pointed them out to me on this thread, and I'm really enjoying them so far.  They have the best/largest soundstage of anything I've tried yet, good bass and midrange.

6SN7GT RCA radio amplifier JAN CRC audio vacuum tubes 2 valves tested 6SN7GTB


----------



## David222

TLO said:


> These are the RCA codes I found online
> 
> Z - 1936
> U - 1937
> ...



I find this -->  DOC useful for RCA date codes.


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> I just got these last week for $72 after someone pointed them out to me on this thread, and I'm really enjoying them so far.  They have the best/largest soundstage of anything I've tried yet, good bass and midrange.
> 
> 6SN7GT RCA radio amplifier JAN CRC audio vacuum tubes *2 valves tested 6SN7GTB*


Very nice!  And a great price for them too.  

What are the dates on them?  Should be on the other side of the tube from what's shown in the photo.  GTA's and GTB's weren't introduced until 1950, so what you likely have are just GT's rather than GTB's.


----------



## rawheadjim

They have a square with S and C at the top two corners, and a triangle inside the square with a 71 below it.  Not sure what that means by the date document?


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> They have a square with S and C at the top two corners, and a triangle inside the square with a 71 below it.  Not sure what that means by the date document?


That's a military stamp and doesn't indicate the manufacturing date.  Should be a 3 or 4 digit code on the base somewhere, unless it rubbed off.


----------



## TLO

David222 said:


> I find this -->  DOC useful for RCA date codes.


Yes, that is the document we found the date codes from.


----------



## TLO (Feb 14, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> They have a square with S and C at the top two corners, and a triangle inside the square with a 71 below it.  Not sure what that means by the date document?


That is the code for the U.S. *S*ignal *C*orps, not date. Those tubes are RCA 6SN7 GT from the 40's, same as RCA VT-231 for the U.S. military. Later RCA 6SN7 GTB will have clear glass with side flash getter. If I remember correctly, RCA 6SN7 GTB were made by GE.


----------



## ostewart

Just won this for cheap, wonder if it's any good. No actual test readings sadly, but worth a punt for the price.


----------



## rawheadjim

The only other numbers I can find anywhere on the base are 9-35 on both of them.


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> The only other numbers I can find anywhere on the base are 9-35 on both of them.


Then if I'm reading the info correctly, those would be the 35th week of 1949.  I will stand corrected if anyone has better info.


----------



## mayurs

Are these RCAs the same as CBS Hytron or RCA Red/Brown base 5692s? I did some googling but could not ID these tubes accurately.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 15, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Then if I'm reading the info correctly, those would be the 35th week of 1949.  I will stand corrected if anyone has better info.


GTBs were not introduced until 1954**, I believe.  If it is a GTB that date code 9 would stand for 1959.

** corrected.


----------



## TLO

Ripper2860 said:


> GTBs were not introduced until 1945, I believe.  If it is a GTB that date code 9 would stand for 1959.


I believe GTB started around mid 50's and not 40's. GTA is from around 1950-54. BTW, those are 40's RCA 6SN7 GT with smoke glass, just before they moved to GTA with clear glass. @bcowen is right, they should be 1949.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 15, 2022)

Typo -- I meant introduced about 1954 (not 1945).  I hate typing on a phone screen. 

And that's what I also get for skimming as opposed to reading.  GTs vs GTB.


----------



## TLO (Feb 15, 2022)

mayurs said:


> Are these RCAs the same as CBS Hytron or RCA Red/Brown base 5692s? I did some googling but could not ID these tubes accurately.


Those are RCA 5692 labeled as RCA 6SN7 GT. RCA is printed on the base...
These are CBS 5692.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> GTBs were not introduced until 1954**, I believe.  If it is a GTB that date code 9 would stand for 1959.
> 
> ** corrected.


The 3-numeral code went from '46 to '56, and in '56 the code for the year went to two alpha digits.  That's why I went with 1949 instead of 1959.


----------



## rawheadjim

Thanks for the date ID on these, I think you found them for me on ebay Ripper!  With the 10% off for $72, I was happy to have them.  



> BTW, those are 40's RCA 6SN7 GT with smoke glass, just before they moved to GTA with clear glass. @bcowen is right, they should be 1949.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nice to know I helped somebody here.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice to know I helped somebody here.


It was bound to happen at some point, even if by mistake.  😁😁


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice to know I helped somebody here.


….the anti-bangy….👍


----------



## Deceneu808

It has arrived. Seller accidentally or on purpose sent me a 53 ribbed plate Foton with the Melz that I didn't order. Thank you @Paladin79 for the tip on the Melz.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> It has arrived. Seller accidentally or on purpose sent me a 53 ribbed plate Foton with the Melz that I didn't order. Thank you @Paladin79 for the tip on the Melz.
> You are most welcome and I have had Russian sellers send gifts with tubes i have purchased. The Melz appears to be in incredible condition. After a short burn in period it is my belief you will be suitably impressed.


----------



## rawheadjim

That Melz certainly looks beautiful!  I still don't know enough to try to buy Melz or Fotons, I have to scour more pages of this and other threads, pics, etc.  Anyone that has suggestions on safe sellers or good prices on either, or has any "extra" pairs they might part with, please let me know!


----------



## Paladin79

rawheadjim said:


> That Melz certainly looks beautiful!  I still don't know enough to try to buy Melz or Fotons, I have to scour more pages of this and other threads, pics, etc.  Anyone that has suggestions on safe sellers or good prices on either, or has any "extra" pairs they might part with, please let me know!


If I get time I will help on the Melz, maybe this weekend. @bcowen is the resident expert on Fotons, the one in the photo is the type you should seek, early fifties with the ribbed plates. That Melz in the photo is not common and is in holy grail territory IMHO, and in the opinions of friends who worked with my on a blind test of over 1500 tubes. You best start with perforated plates, and if you can find them, try for 1958 to 1963.  If you have a question on a tube PM me and I may be able to get back to you quicker that way, I run a corporation in my spare time.


----------



## musicinmymind

Deceneu808 said:


> It has arrived. Seller accidentally or on purpose sent me a 53 ribbed plate Foton with the Melz that I didn't order. Thank you @Paladin79 for the tip on the Melz.



Melz looks great, from which year 1961?


----------



## Paladin79

musicinmymind said:


> Melz looks great, from which year 1961?


That is a hard to find solid plate version from the fifties, 54 or 56 I want to say. They do not come up for sale very often, you are more apt to find the perforated plate versions.  A 1961 in one of those is amazing and a close second to some of the solid plates like shown in the photo.


----------



## Deceneu808

@Paladin79 Only gave it half an hour out of curiosity. I must say, this is the best I've heard. Can't quite put my hands on what it is just yet that makes it sound so natural and specific at the same time

@musicinmymind It is from 1957


----------



## rawheadjim

Thanks Paladin, that holy grail Melz is way out of my league so I'm definitely not in that territory.  No hurry, I can learn about starter Melz tubes at your leisure.  I will be more than satisfied to learn about Foton's and maybe pursue some of those.  Another guy on this forum sold me these 5692's for $235 so I will be enjoying them for a while when they arrive.


----------



## Renexx (Feb 16, 2022)

Today I got my Melz 1578 81s back with resoldered pins. Their hum is completely gone and they work properly now without losing power.
Thanks for the good advise.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> It has arrived. Seller accidentally or on purpose sent me a 53 ribbed plate Foton with the Melz that I didn't order. Thank you @Paladin79 for the tip on the Melz.


Nice!

I'm betting that on a price-to-performance ratio the Foton will win.  🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Nice!
> 
> I'm betting that on a price-to-performance ratio the Foton will win.  🤣🤣🤣


A Picasso vs Elvis painted on velvet, naturally Elvis would win for you.  


rawheadjim said:


> Thanks Paladin, that holy grail Melz is way out of my league so I'm definitely not in that territory.  No hurry, I can learn about starter Melz tubes at your leisure.  I will be more than satisfied to learn about Foton's and maybe pursue some of those.  Another guy on this forum sold me these 5692's for $235 so I will be enjoying them for a while when they arrive.


Those are very good tubes


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A Picasso vs Elvis painted on velvet, naturally Elvis would win for you.


ROFL!  At least Elvis had some musical talent. Picasso just painted some ugly stuff.  I think he was only celebrated because he was weird.  An earlier form of Marilyn Manson, kind of.  😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> @Paladin79 Only gave it half an hour out of curiosity. I must say, this is the best I've heard. Can't quite put my hands on what it is just yet that makes it sound so natural and specific at the same time
> 
> @musicinmymind It is from 1957


To me those tubes are well balanced across the audio spectrum. Unless you have poor solder on the pins they are wondrous and score well in 25 categories friends and I used in blind listening. They are like a fine wine that scores into the high nineties. Something to be savored and enjoyed.😎


----------



## DenverW

Oh dear.  I recently picked up a few tubes, and I’m scared to say I preferred the fotons over the two types of melz.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> Oh dear.  I recently picked up a few tubes, and I’m scared to say I preferred the fotons over the two types of melz.


Depends on which Melz, they were produced over a 40 year span and some are less in demand. I own both brands from some of the best years but the Fotons did not make the cut when using 25 criteria, the scored well in some areas but average and below average in others. I use the accuracy of a large group of people so while I am interested in individual points of view, I go about this in a different way.😊 I will not post results on 1500 types of 6SN7’s and equivalents I have heard cause anyone can argue the X,Y, or Z tube was best for their ears and maybe they just spent $1,000 so it must be the best.


----------



## DenverW

This is what I was afraid of!  Paladin is already mad at me !  This is truly what I deserve for straying from the goodness of 12au7.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> This is what I was afraid of!  Paladin is already mad at me !  This is truly what I deserve for straying from the goodness of 12au7.


Lol I just have opinions about tubes that may be different than your own.


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 17, 2022)

Odd listing of the day (week / month)…🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## TLO

jonathan c said:


> Odd listing of the day (week / month)…🤷🏻‍♂️


No surprise...this seller, greengirl613, has been listing poor condition tubes at premium prices.


----------



## raindownthunda

I picked up a '61 Melz 1578 and while it sounds pretty great, there is an audible hum at all volumes that's quite distracting in quiet passages. I tested a few other 6SN7 which were dead silent to confirm it's this specific tube. The solder didn't look too healthy in the pins, so I heated the pins and used a solder sucker to remove as much of the original solder as I could before adding fresh solder. No luck - the hum persists. Anything else worth trying?


----------



## bcowen (Feb 17, 2022)

raindownthunda said:


> I picked up a '61 Melz 1578 and while it sounds pretty great, there is an audible hum at all volumes that's quite distracting in quiet passages. I tested a few other 6SN7 which were dead silent to confirm it's this specific tube. The solder didn't look too healthy in the pins, so I heated the pins and used a solder sucker to remove as much of the original solder as I could before adding fresh solder. No luck - the hum persists. Anything else worth trying?


Two thoughts:

1) Did you use any flux when you resoldered?  I've had to do a few tubes more than once in order to fix them, and began adding a flux step just to avoid that.  Lots of flux formats out there and just an example linked below. I like the paste type in a syringe as it makes it easier to inject a good bit into the tube pin (and I'm lazy).  Just don't cheap out on something inexpensive from China...get a name brand flux. I first suck all the old solder out, inject a good bit of the flux, and then with the tube pins pointed downward I heat the pins until all the flux smokes and bubbles out.  Then clean any flux residue off the outside of the pins with isopropyl alcohol (so that the new solder doesn't stick to the outside), and then add new solder...and a good bit of it.  The flux cleans the inside of the pin (and the element wire) nicely plus makes the new solder adhere better.  The flux that's contained within the solder itself may not be sufficient to thoroughly clean the surfaces inside, especially with the age and possible oxidation level of what we're dealing with.  Yes, it's time consuming to do it this way, but there are certain tubes like the Melz (and Tung Sol 5998's) where the effort is totally worth it if it saves the tube.

https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-milliliters-Pneumatic-Dispensing/dp/B00425FUW2/ref=sxin_16?asc_contentid=amzn1.osa.2cc43fb3-46d6-443e-8e34-607969b55be7.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&asc_contenttype=article&ascsubtag=amzn1.osa.2cc43fb3-46d6-443e-8e34-607969b55be7.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&creativeASIN=B00425FUW2&crid=HFVWJ5HXHOJF&cv_ct_cx=solder+flux&cv_ct_id=amzn1.osa.2cc43fb3-46d6-443e-8e34-607969b55be7.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&cv_ct_pg=search&cv_ct_we=asin&cv_ct_wn=osp-single-source-earns-comm&keywords=solder+flux&linkCode=oas&pd_rd_i=B00425FUW2&pd_rd_r=b86d929a-4c83-44f1-931a-ca605ab91147&pd_rd_w=cnsng&pd_rd_wg=a2ID7&pf_rd_p=5846ecd6-3f37-4a28-8efc-9c817c03dbe9&pf_rd_r=BDMY4G7WH8187G7J03FA&qid=1645101239&sprefix=solder+flux,aps,84&sr=1-3-64f3a41a-73ca-403a-923c-8152c45485fe&tag=askmencontent-20

2) Are you sure the amp's socket is making good contact with the tube pins?  The diameter of the tube pins on some of the Melz and Fotons I have seems to be smaller than the usual US tube pins. I've never measured them with a caliper, but some of these tubes slide very easily into the socket with little to no resistance compared to US tubes, which leads me to believe they are a smaller diameter.  May want to check and be sure you're getting good contact at the socket, and re-tension them if needed.


----------



## musicinmymind

Thanks to brother, he sent me two version of Melz tubes 1961 and 1951. Not sure years marking are genuine. But will be interesting to compare with Kenrad I have.


----------



## Paladin79

musicinmymind said:


> Thanks to brother, he sent me two version of Melz tubes 1961 and 1951. Not sure years marking are genuine. But will be interesting to compare with Kenrad I have.


Look at the lower right portion of the Melz logo in the glass portion to get the date on the tubes not what is stamped on the metal. The one on the right looks a bit more like a 56 but the second number is not clear in the photo.


----------



## musicinmymind

Paladin79 said:


> Look at the lower right portion of the Melz logo in the glass portion to get the date on the tubes not what is stamped on the metal. The one on the right looks a bit more like a 56 but the second number is not clear in the photo.



Thanks, will check logo and post when I get home.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Two thoughts:
> 
> 1) Did you use any flux when you resoldered?  I've had to do a few tubes more than once in order to fix them, and began adding a flux step just to avoid that.  Lots of flux formats out there and just an example linked below. I like the paste type in a syringe as it makes it easier to inject a good bit into the tube pin (and I'm lazy).  Just don't cheap out on something inexpensive from China...get a name brand flux. I first suck all the old solder out, inject a good bit of the flux, and then with the tube pins pointed downward I heat the pins until all the flux smokes and bubbles out.  Then clean any flux residue off the outside of the pins with isopropyl alcohol (so that the new solder doesn't stick to the outside), and then add new solder...and a good bit of it.  The flux cleans the inside of the pin (and the element wire) nicely plus makes the new solder adhere better.  The flux that's contained within the solder itself may not be sufficient to thoroughly clean the surfaces inside, especially with the age and possible oxidation level of what we're dealing with.  Yes, it's time consuming to do it this way, but there are certain tubes like the Melz (and Tung Sol 5998's) where the effort is totally worth it if it saves the tube.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of this assessment, I have had to re-solder some Melz three times. I also repaired some GEC where it was obvious the solder was flowing around the pin wire but still not making good contact. The metal inside the pins can get very corroded, and indeed rosin flux cleans the metal. Never use acid flux with solder used in electronics, especially 60/40 solder that contains lead.  I prefer liquid solder flux myself because it permeates better and it is what I was taught to use in a Kester six week solder course. I use a small plastic bottle with a needle top that will generate just a drop at a time. I also have top quality magnifier lights as well as a Nikon inspection microscope that helps me examine the inside of the pins.

The pin diameter on Russian tubes is between .093 inches and .094 inches, on US tubes I tried it is .091. What gives the illusion that the Russian pins are smaller is that they have a more closed opening at the top compared to US made tubes. There is often some solder build up on the outside of the tubes unless you are extremely careful and that in itself can stretch tube sockets. I measured the middle of each pin, as i moved towards the tips I got a variety of readings.  

I should also mention I discovered it was a solder issue when I was first told it took 100 hours to break in a Foton, my background is science and I have studied tube theory so that statement left me scratching my head and wondering what was really going on. Many of the Foton and Melz tubes we are using are between 60 and 70 years old. I also use solder with a small silver content on the tube pins. I borrowed this statement rather than explaining leaching myself.

Adding silver to the process of soldering or brazing helps *produce smooth, leak-tight, electrically conductive and corrosion-resistant joints*.


----------



## Paladin79

DenverW said:


> Oh dear.  I recently picked up a few tubes, and I’m scared to say I preferred the fotons over the two types of melz.


It is your amp and your ears and I would never argue what a person hears or does not hear. You will save a lot of money if you prefer the Fotons.   

 I am using amps I designed for the sole purpose of examining 6sn7 sound and they are also pretty revealing when it comes to certain power tubes. Most often the headphones my group and I used are Senn HD 800's or at home I use Focal Utopias with the same amps. @bcowen, @sam6550a, and @Ripper2860 know that amp sound and they might back me up to say it is revealing for tubes.   Many of you may have better amps and headphones but I stopped at an $8,000 investment into tests I helped perform. Other friends donated a lot more in an attempt to hear any type of 6sn7 we could get our hands on.


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Odd listing of the day (week / month)…🤷🏻‍♂️


I'd bet that tube sounds groooovy once the fungicide starts burning off🤪


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I agree with *some* of this assessment, I have had to re-solder some Melz three times. I also repaired some GEC where it was obvious the solder was flowing around the pin wire but still not making good contact. The metal inside the pins can get very corroded, and indeed rosin flux cleans the metal. Never use acid flux with solder used in electronics, especially 60/40 solder that contains lead.  I prefer liquid solder flux myself because it permeates better and it is what I was taught to use in a Kester six week solder course. I use a small plastic bottle with a needle top that will generate just a drop at a time. I also have top quality magnifier lights as well as a Nikon inspection microscope that helps me examine the inside of the pins.



Some?    



Paladin79 said:


> I should also mention I discovered it was a solder issue when I was first told it took 100 hours to break in a Foton, my background is science and I have studied tube theory so that statement left me scratching my head and wondering what was really going on. Many of the Foton and Melz tubes we are using are between 60 and 70 years old. I also use solder with a small silver content on the tube pins. I borrowed this statement *rather than explaining leaching *myself.



Why did you have to bring @Ripper2860 into this?  🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I'd bet that tube sounds groooovy once the fungicide starts burning off🤪


Not only that, it makes your entire house immune from Covid-19.  I'm surprised it's not listing for $7,399.00.  Maybe a typo, 😀


----------



## Shane D

A 6SN7 related question for the tube veterans. I am talking to an amp builder about a tube amp for my collection of headphones. I sent him a list of my headphones, but I think he may have been blinded by the HE5se V2's and Argon T60's in the list and he recommended going with 6SN7 driver tube and 6S41S power tubes.

I wrote back to explain that the two toughies are already served by a big beefy amp. My concern was powering the other headphones, with some range on the volume dial, that have Ohm ratings of 32 Ohms (x2), 33 Ohms, 35 Ohms, 38 Ohms and one at 80 Ohms. He then recommended, "I would suggest a set of 2 x 6H30Pi EHG and 1 x 6N23P-EW tubes."

Are 6SN7's usually recommended just for harder to drive headphones? Kind of a related question: Will the second option restrict my tube rolling options?

Thanks for any input!


----------



## Paladin79

Shane D said:


> A 6SN7 related question for the tube veterans. I am talking to an amp builder about a tube amp for my collection of headphones. I sent him a list of my headphones, but I think he may have been blinded by the HE5se V2's and Argon T60's in the list and he recommended going with 6SN7 driver tube and 6S41S power tubes.
> 
> I wrote back to explain that the two toughies are already served by a big beefy amp. My concern was powering the other headphones, with some range on the volume dial, that have Ohm ratings of 32 Ohms (x2), 33 Ohms, 35 Ohms, 38 Ohms and one at 80 Ohms. He then recommended, "I would suggest a set of 2 x 6H30Pi EHG and 1 x 6N23P-EW tubes."
> 
> ...


The headphones you are describing work best with hi current amps, their impedance other than the 80 ohm pair is generally not used on most OTL's.  My design can go down to about 50 ohm impedance because it is high voltage and low current. The tubes and design he would use are more conducive to matching your headphones. I can use planars with mine and it only produces one watt but impedance is the kicker.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> Not only that, it makes your entire house immune from Covid-19.  I'm surprised it's not listing for $7,399.00.  Maybe a typo, 😀


This tube will take you to heaven...https://www.ebay.com/itm/265046580638

My friend laughed when I told him cannabis is more popular in Italy than the states...


----------



## Shane D

Paladin79 said:


> The headphones you are describing work best with hi current amps, their impedance other than the 80 ohm pair is generally not used on most OTL's.  My design can go down to about 50 ohm impedance because it is high voltage and low current. The tubes and design he would use are more conducive to matching your headphones. I can use planars with mine and it only produces one watt but impedance is the kicker.


His amps are OTL and in this case push-pull. He claims they operate in a range of 24 Ohms to 400 Ohms, but are better with impedances less than 100 Ohms.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2022)

Shane D said:


> His amps are OTL and in this case push-pull. He claims they operate in a range of 24 Ohms to 400 Ohms, but are better with impedances less than 100 Ohms.


I suspected they would be push pull since they supply twice the idle current into the load. When time allows I will add a headphone output to this amp, a SET I designed in order to win a bet. 15 watts. I do not do metal cabinets so I can use a diversity of hardwoods to make every amp I built unique.


----------



## Shane D

Paladin79 said:


> I suspected they would be push pull since they supply twice the idle current into the load.


Do you think the change of tubes will be better for my situation? I liked the idea of 6SN7 for tube rolling options, but if these are better for my 'phones, then cool.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2022)

Shane D said:


> Do you think the change of tubes will be better for my situation? I liked the idea of 6SN7 for tube rolling options, but if these are better for my 'phones, then cool.


I would need to do some research but be that as it may, this should be a discussion between you and the person building your amp. Most every headphone amp as well as my pre-amp use 6sn7's so I generally design around those. The same is true for friends who had or have Freyas, Dark Voices,   Lyr 3's, Vali 2's, and even Bottlehead Cracks. (the last two require adapters.) I buy headphones to fit the amp, not so much the other way around. I tend to specialize so there are plenty of tubes out there I know less about.


----------



## raindownthunda

bcowen said:


> Two thoughts:
> 
> 1) Did you use any flux when you resoldered?  I've had to do a few tubes more than once in order to fix them, and began adding a flux step just to avoid that.  Lots of flux formats out there and just an example linked below. I like the paste type in a syringe as it makes it easier to inject a good bit into the tube pin (and I'm lazy).  Just don't cheap out on something inexpensive from China...get a name brand flux. I first suck all the old solder out, inject a good bit of the flux, and then with the tube pins pointed downward I heat the pins until all the flux smokes and bubbles out.  Then clean any flux residue off the outside of the pins with isopropyl alcohol (so that the new solder doesn't stick to the outside), and then add new solder...and a good bit of it.  The flux cleans the inside of the pin (and the element wire) nicely plus makes the new solder adhere better.  The flux that's contained within the solder itself may not be sufficient to thoroughly clean the surfaces inside, especially with the age and possible oxidation level of what we're dealing with.  Yes, it's time consuming to do it this way, but there are certain tubes like the Melz (and Tung Sol 5998's) where the effort is totally worth it if it saves the tube.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed and helpful reply! After removing the original solder I put a small dab of rosin flux paste at the tip of each pin and heated it to let it flow before adding new 60/40 solder with flux core. Thinking about this, it’s likely the flux didn’t make it very far inside and likely wasn’t enough to thoroughly flush the pins. I did add a good amount of new solder and made sure it was really getting in there. The flux flush via needle applicator sounds like it’s worth a shot.

The pins are definitely making solid contact with the socket. I’m using a garage1217 12au7/6sn7 adapter and thought it might be adapter related, but ruled that out after confirming other 6sn7 are dead silent.

Since we’re on this topic, and idea on why a corroded solder joint would cause a hum in the first place? Have you ever had a tube where thoroughly re-soldering the pins did NOT fix the hum?


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> This tube will take you to heaven...https://www.ebay.com/itm/265046580638
> 
> My friend laughed when I told him cannabis is more popular in Italy than the states...


*ROFL!!! * He must have gotten into the same bad batch of crack as his brother from another mother (hanoitubes) who is selling a whole pair for way less.  🤣

Seriously, I wonder what planet these guys are from.  Do they ever actually sell anything?  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1642260382...ISNulhtiDSRupYiFs%3D|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675


----------



## bcowen

raindownthunda said:


> Thanks for the detailed and helpful reply! After removing the original solder I put a small dab of rosin flux paste at the tip of each pin and heated it to let it flow before adding new 60/40 solder with flux core. Thinking about this, it’s likely the flux didn’t make it very far inside and likely wasn’t enough to thoroughly flush the pins. I did add a good amount of new solder and made sure it was really getting in there. The flux flush via needle applicator sounds like it’s worth a shot.
> 
> The pins are definitely making solid contact with the socket. I’m using a garage1217 12au7/6sn7 adapter and thought it might be adapter related, but ruled that out after confirming other 6sn7 are dead silent.
> 
> Since we’re on this topic, and idea on why a corroded solder joint would cause a hum in the first place? *Have you ever had a tube where thoroughly re-soldering the pins did NOT fix the hum?*


I haven't personally, but as I mentioned there are a few tubes I've had to re-do because the first attempt didn't work.  There's also the possibility that the tube has high interelement leakage, where a small amount of current is flowing between one or more of the elements without them actually touching (which would be a short).  The only way to test for this (that I know of) is with a tube tester.  I've had no issues with Melz tubes in this regard so far, but I've had several Fotons with high leakage and I've just chunked them rather than risk damage to the amp.  I don't know that resoldering would help with this issue as it is caused by two (or more) of the elements being too close to each other, likely from being bumped hard or handled roughly at some point in their journey causing misalignment.


----------



## musicinmymind

Paladin79 said:


> Look at the lower right portion of the Melz logo in the glass portion to get the date on the tubes not what is stamped on the metal. The one on the right looks a bit more like a 56 but the second number is not clear in the photo.



Did verify the year on glass, it is 61. Very hard to take a pic as logo is faded, will try tomorrow when there is sunlight.
Holycow it is holy grail then!


----------



## Paladin79

musicinmymind said:


> Did verify the year on glass, it is 61. Very hard to take a pic as logo is faded, will try tomorrow when there is sunlight.
> Holycow it is holy grail then!


The 61 is what I consider to be the holy grail of perforated plate 1578's, in the testing I did it came very close to the solid plate 1578. Mind you this is the opinion of myself and seven local friends who went through a lot of blind testing. When covid abates more we hope to use a group of at least 50-100 people in blind testing of the top 52, we are only using one type of Melz because many have similar construction.


----------



## musicinmymind

Paladin79 said:


> The 61 is what I consider to be the holy grail of perforated plate 1578's, in the testing I did it came very close to the solid plate 1578. Mind you this is the opinion of myself and seven local friends who went through a lot of blind testing. When covid abates more we hope to use a group of at least 50-100 people in blind testing of the top 52, we are only using one type of Melz because many have similar construction.



Compared to Kenrads, this is more tubey sound I have to admit, everything is lot more smooth without loosing the resolution. You have very good opinion and immense passion, thanks for all the suggestion and guidance.


----------



## Paladin79

musicinmymind said:


> Compared to Kenrads, this is more tubey sound I have to admit, everything is lot more smooth without loosing the resolution. You have very good opinion and immense passion, thanks for all the suggestion and guidance.


My pleasure.  Everything is relative. Melz are a great buy when you compare them to tubes costing much more that did not rate nearly so well for my group.😜


----------



## sam6550a

raindownthunda said:


> Thanks for the detailed and helpful reply! After removing the original solder I put a small dab of rosin flux paste at the tip of each pin and heated it to let it flow before adding new 60/40 solder with flux core. Thinking about this, it’s likely the flux didn’t make it very far inside and likely wasn’t enough to thoroughly flush the pins. I did add a good amount of new solder and made sure it was really getting in there. The flux flush via needle applicator sounds like it’s worth a shot.
> 
> The pins are definitely making solid contact with the socket. I’m using a garage1217 12au7/6sn7 adapter and thought it might be adapter related, but ruled that out after confirming other 6sn7 are dead silent.
> 
> Since we’re on this topic, and idea on why a corroded solder joint would cause a hum in the first place? Have you ever had a tube where thoroughly re-soldering the pins did NOT fix the hum?


Depending upon the circuit topology, poor connection in the cathode and/or control grid circuit could cause hum. As to resoldering not fixing the problem, I had a Foton that was helped by resoldering, but not cured of hum. After a number of resoldering tries, I sent it to the grand guru of pin resoldering, @Paladin79, for evaluation. Although he has not given up, I do not believe that he has had much success fixing this tube. But, remember that this tube is almost as old as I am!


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Depending upon the circuit topology, poor connection in the cathode and/or control grid circuit could cause hum. As to resoldering not fixing the problem, I had a Foton that was helped by resoldering, but not cured of hum. After a number of resoldering tries, I sent it to the grand guru of pin resoldering, @Paladin79, for evaluation. Although he has not given up, I do not believe that he has had much success fixing this tube. But, remember that this tube is almost as old as I am!


….🤔…. I’m older than most all of my favourite tubes….🤷🏻‍♂️….


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 17, 2022)

sam6550a said:


> Depending upon the circuit topology, poor connection in the cathode and/or control grid circuit could cause hum. As to resoldering not fixing the problem, I had a Foton that was helped by resoldering, but not cured of hum. After a number of resoldering tries, I sent it to the grand guru of pin resoldering, @Paladin79, for evaluation. Although he has not given up, I do not believe that he has had much success fixing this tube. But, remember that this tube is almost as old as I am!


I could not remove the hum from that particular tube, but I tried.   It was a 62 and there are better years to own, I will gift you a replacement sometime unless @bcowen beats me to it.  Fotons make great cat toys but currently Finnegan is more into crossovers.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I could not remove the hum from that particular tube, but I tried.


🤪…put that tube in a DarkVoice and let the amp hum ‘mask’ the tube hum…🤪


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> I could not remove the hum from that particular tube, but I tried.   It was a 62 and there are better years to own, I will gift you a replacement sometime unless @bcowen beats me to it.  Fotons make great cat toys but currently Finnegan is more into crossovers.


Thank you for the help, I really appreciate it. It looks like Finnegan prefers 12 dB per octave or greater network topology. A very discriminating feline.


----------



## TLO

Paladin79 said:


> I could not remove the hum from that particular tube, but I tried.   It was a 62 and there are better years to own, I will gift you a replacement sometime unless @bcowen beats me to it.  Fotons make great cat toys but currently Finnegan is more into crossovers.


Ask your cat for advise, perhaps the cat knows something you dont... No harm trying...LOL


----------



## rawheadjim

I'm waiting for Finnegan to do me a solid on some old tubes!


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> Ask your cat for advise, perhaps the cat knows something you dont... No harm trying...LOL


Besides, Finnegan starts off with nine lives, you do not…


----------



## cgb3

MacMan31 said:


> Any great recommendations for a Lyr 3? Is there 6SN7 socket savers?





David222 said:


> I find this -->  DOC useful for RCA date codes.


I'm not saying hide,... but maybe hide.
You do realize there's guys out there that were tasked with eliminating leaks in WWII State secrets? You're disseminating date codes willy-nilly.

Good news, the assassins after you are in their 90's.

The bad news; a buff 90 year old may still kick your ass.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  At least Elvis had some musical talent. Picasso just painted some ugly stuff.  I think he was only celebrated because he was weird.  An earlier form of Marilyn Manson, kind of.  😂😂


.


----------



## raindownthunda

bcowen said:


> I haven't personally, but as I mentioned there are a few tubes I've had to re-do because the first attempt didn't work.  There's also the possibility that the tube has high interelement leakage, where a small amount of current is flowing between one or more of the elements without them actually touching (which would be a short).  The only way to test for this (that I know of) is with a tube tester.  I've had no issues with Melz tubes in this regard so far, but I've had several Fotons with high leakage and I've just chunked them rather than risk damage to the amp.  I don't know that resoldering would help with this issue as it is caused by two (or more) of the elements being too close to each other, likely from being bumped hard or handled roughly at some point in their journey causing misalignment.


Checking back in - Just did the liquid flux flush and the Melz hum definitely improved. It's still there but a much lower level (maybe 50% less).  Makes me wonder if repeating the process yet again would reduce it even further... although I think the poor guy needs a break from the soldering iron (and I need a break from cleaning up flux lol). I also observed that with 6080 tubes the hum is MUCH quieter than with 5998's (probably due to the lower gain?). 

For anyone else trying to get rid of tube hum, the additional step of injecting liquid flux to clean the empty pins is definitely worth a try.


----------



## JTbbb

Hello all,

I’m thinking of squeezing some Epoxy Resin, with a small flat blade screwdriver, into what looks like a huge crack! But actually isn’t. The crack doesn’t extend to the bottom, and the base is tight to the glass. Any other suggestions?


----------



## sam6550a

JTbbb said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I’m thinking of squeezing some Epoxy Resin, with a small flat blade screwdriver, into what looks like a huge crack! But actually isn’t. The crack doesn’t extend to the bottom, and the base is tight to the glass. Any other suggestions?


Don't mess with it if it is working.


----------



## JTbbb

sam6550a said:


> Don't mess with it if it is working.


Tube tests as NOS and sounds wonderful. I wondered whether it might stabilise the crack? But I may take on board what you suggest.

I bought a tube last year that had a loose base and used a medium cyno, which has worked perfectly. Mind you, that tube didn’t cost me much, so if it had gone horribly wrong, it wouldn’t have mattered.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Don't mess with it if it is working.


I agree.  As long as the base is still tight to the glass, there's more risk in making it worse.


----------



## TLO (Feb 21, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I’m thinking of squeezing some Epoxy Resin, with a small flat blade screwdriver, into what looks like a huge crack! But actually isn’t. The crack doesn’t extend to the bottom, and the base is tight to the glass. Any other suggestions?


If it really bothers you, use heat tube. The fun part is there are many colors to choose from...
For loose base, I always use the nail remover method, epoxy or glue is too messy and ugly.


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> If it really bothers you, use heat tube. The fun part is there are many colors to choose from...
> For loose base, I always use the nail remover method, epoxy or glue is too messy and ugly.


What is the nail remover method?


----------



## TLO (Feb 21, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> What is the nail remover method?


Drip a small amount of nail polish remover along the small gap between the base and glass, rotate the tube as you go, clean the excess then leave it standing upright overnight for it to dry or use a heat gun / blower to speed up the process. This method will only work well if the tube has not lost its cement compound.


----------



## TLO

Before applying the remover, always wrap a small piece of cloth around the base tightly to protect the precious print. Most of the time, I dont really wipe the excess but blow the remover dry with my mouth. You dont want to damage the print and lose a couple of hundred dollars there...


----------



## DenverW

JTbbb said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I’m thinking of squeezing some Epoxy Resin, with a small flat blade screwdriver, into what looks like a huge crack! But actually isn’t. The crack doesn’t extend to the bottom, and the base is tight to the glass. Any other suggestions?


Leave it, treat the tube gently.


----------



## ostewart (Feb 21, 2022)

This turned up from eBay (£11.19 in an auction) - I don't have readings but I reflowed solder to the pins as the black base is quite loose (seems it's not solder that's the issue, and actually epoxy, oh well) and cleaned up the pins (after I took these photos - pins showing flux residue and excess solder that has been filed down).

A 4 - guessing January 1944

I'll grab some clear nail varnish for the base.

Works fine in my Xduoo TA-26


----------



## paradoxper

Not sure where I bought these. Which means slow down. And that is no fun.

I'll run these in 1578 quad against the CFA Hybrid.


----------



## ChrisPDX (Feb 21, 2022)

Another tube noob question here ... I'm pending payment on a pair of VT-231 / CAA tubes but the seller is only providing one type of measurement ( 2600 / 2700 and 2700 / 2700 ).  Those measurements -- I'm afraid I don't know what is being measured nor the units -- seem good, but there are no "ma" measurements (typical range seems to be ~6.0). The seller has a good reputation. Would you feel confident proceeding without the ma measurement? I know there are so many factors and measurements may not be accurate for various reasons. Thanks for any advice or guidance.


----------



## u2u2

Buy the seller, not the tubes. You are satisfied he has a good rep so I would say go ahead.
Enjoy them when they arrive.
Problems? He will help if his rep is genuine.
That has been my experience so far...


----------



## bcowen

ChrisPDX said:


> Another tube noob question here ... I'm pending payment on a pair of VT-231 / CAA tubes but the seller is only providing one type of measurement ( 2600 / 2700 and 2700 / 2700 ).  Those measurements -- I'm afraid I don't know what it being measured nor the units -- seem good, but there are no "ma" measurements (typical range seems to be ~6.0). The seller has a good reputation. Would you feel confident proceeding without the ma measurement? I know there are so many factors and measurements may not be accurate for various reasons. Thanks for any advice or guidance.


The seller is providing GM (transconductance) measurements which are as good a measure as mA/V for small signal tubes like 6SN7's.  The generally accepted "bogey" (or average NOS) value for a 6SN7 is 2600, so both triodes in both tubes are measuring at or slightly above average NOS.  This is assuming his tester is calibrated which there's no way of knowing for sure.


----------



## David222 (Feb 22, 2022)

ChrisPDX said:


> Another tube noob question here ... I'm pending payment on a pair of VT-231 / CAA tubes but the seller is only providing one type of measurement ( 2600 / 2700 and 2700 / 2700 ).  Those measurements -- I'm afraid I don't know what it being measured nor the units -- seem good, but there are no "ma" measurements (typical range seems to be ~6.0). The seller has a good reputation. Would you feel confident proceeding without the ma measurement? I know there are so many factors and measurements may not be accurate for various reasons. Thanks for any advice or guidance.



There are two triodes...he is giving you a measurement for each (which is what he should do).  The "NOS" spec for 6SN7 is 2600 (if not mistaken).... so he is showing you with data that your tubes are in fact NOS.

--> What you want to look for is what type of machine is he using to measure...many ebay dudes have varying machines and if they are not calibrated then the measurements are worth jack... consider looking for an AT1000 as it provides reliable results (IMHO).


----------



## cddc

David222 said:


> There are two triodes...he is giving you a measurement for each (which is what he should do).  The "NOS" spec for 6SN7 is 2600 (if not mistaken).... so he is showing you with data that your tubes are in fact NOS.
> 
> --> What you want to look for is what type of machine is he using to measure...many ebay dudes have varying machines and if they are not calibrated then the measurements are worth jack...* you are best looking for an AT1000 as it provides most reliable results* (IMHO).




I used to think Amplitrex AT1000 is a great tester, but after reading all the negative reports on the numerous errors in its software and the factor that Amplitrex has NEVER issued any firmware update to correct the reported errors, I have lost my confidence in Amplitrex test results.

For example, the Amplitrex will overstate the 6AS7G and 6080 tubes. Amplitrex claims to use tube datasheet specs to test tubes, so 100% new 6AS7G and 6080 tubes should has a Mutual Conductance of 7000 uMhos according to the RCA 6080/6AS7G datasheets, but Amplitrex incorrectly uses the minimum Mutual Conductance value 5800 uMhos on the RCA datasheets as its 100% new standard to judge 6AS7G / 6080 tubes. Now, a mediocre 5800 uMhos 6AS7G / 6080 tube will be claimed as 100% new when tested on Amplitrex, while in fact it’s merely a used 83% (5800/7000 = 83%) tube, a 17% overstatement from Amplitrex.


There are many other errors reported by users, so I really don’t know if I can trust the Amplitrex test reports. The most terrible thing is that Amplitrex has never issued any firmware update to address the numerous reported errors. My guess is that the programmer who wrote the initial firmware for Amplitrex tester has long left Amplitrex, and Amplitrex just couldn’t or is unwilling to find a capable programmer to update or rewrite the firmware. 

Another thing I don’t really like about those computerized testers (like Amplitrex) is that all things are hiding in the codes, it’s like a black box to users, users can never figure out what tube testing parameters are used by the codes and whether they are correct (obviously they’re not always correct, just like the numerous errors reported by Amplitrex users).


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> The seller is providing GM (transconductance) measurements which are as good a measure as mA/V for small signal tubes like 6SN7's.  The generally accepted "bogey" (or average NOS) value for a 6SN7 is 2600, so both triodes in both tubes are measuring at or slightly above average NOS.  This is assuming his tester is calibrated which there's no way of knowing for sure.


This tube testing business can be a real conundrum, can’t it. I’ve just had 9 6sn7gt type tubes, all from the ‘40s, tested by a professional on a calibrated tester. The NOS figures below are what you folk’s would expect from this machine? Out of the 9 tubes I have 4 that are pretty much at or slightly above NOS and the remaining just below.

Valve test data for 6SN7  X9  18/02/2022

Valve tester AVO VCM 163

Test parameters for type 6SN7
Heater, 6 Volts
Plate, 250Volts
Control Grid, 8Volts Negative

Good/New 6SN7,   9 MA   2.9 MA/V


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> This tube testing business can be a real conundrum, can’t it. I’ve just had 9 6sn7gt type tubes, all from the ‘40s, tested by a professional on a calibrated tester. The NOS figures below are what you folk’s would expect from this machine? Out of the 9 tubes I have 4 that are pretty much at or slightly above NOS and the remaining just below.
> 
> Valve test data for 6SN7  X9  18/02/2022
> 
> ...


Been a long time since I had an AVO and obviously don't remember details, but with the plate voltage at 250v and grid voltage at -8v, the plate current should be 9ma for an average NOS value.  From what you've noted, it looks like everything is correct as far as the test parameters and bogey value.

Tung Sol 6SN7GT data sheet:

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf


----------



## David222

cddc said:


> I used to think Amplitrex AT1000 is a great tester, but after reading *all the negative reports* on the numerous errors in its software and the factor that Amplitrex has NEVER issued any firmware update to correct the reported errors, I have lost my confidence in Amplitrex test results.
> 
> For example, the Amplitrex will overstate the 6AS7G and 6080 tubes. Amplitrex claims to use tube datasheet specs to test tubes, so 100% new 6AS7G and 6080 tubes should has a Mutual Conductance of 7000 uMhos according to the RCA 6080/6AS7G datasheets, but Amplitrex incorrectly uses the minimum Mutual Conductance value 5800 uMhos on the RCA datasheets as its 100% new standard to judge 6AS7G / 6080 tubes. Now, a mediocre 5800 uMhos 6AS7G / 6080 tube will be claimed as 100% new when tested on Amplitrex, while in fact it’s merely a used 83% (5800/7000 = 83%) tube, a 17% *overstatement* from Amplitrex.
> 
> ...



Interesting...sharing a few thoughts: 

I'm sure Amplitrex has shortfalls like any technology.  However, you can say "_all the negative reports_" about everything and anything in this hobby. I find it more effective to use data demonstrating something above/outside a comparative baseline.  When I Google "Hickok tester accuracy" there are many opinions. 

For 6SN7, I've found the AT1000 to be helpful (as a buyer) and prefer to other machines, as (in my understanding) it puts decent voltage on the plates. Personally, I prefer to read the digital/quantitative results, for whatever they are worth.  By way of example, I was looking at a pair on ebay last week, and the description said NOS Matched (as always)...and description went on to say "no leakage / no shorts" --> As I reviewed the AT1000 screen shots the seller provided... I noticed leakage (measured) for one of the tubes....and asked the seller about it. Perhaps the leakage was irrelevant, but at least I had the opportunity to question the seemingly "perfect description" the seller listed on ebay, using specific data. 

Lastly, to your point above on _overstatement_, I'm not so sure this is a draw-back.... Perhaps the AT1000 is not reliable, but as a digital device it is highly precise in measuring certain tube types.  Perhaps precision is what we seek as buyers (every-time), as the reliability (if known / consistent) is manageable, over or under.  

I'm going to go call Amplitrex and collect my fees now


----------



## cddc

David222 said:


> Lastly, to your point above on _overstatement_, I'm not so sure this is a draw-back.... Perhaps the AT1000 is not reliable, but as a digital device it is highly precise in measuring certain tube types.  *Perhaps precision is what we seek as buyers (every-time), *as the reliability (if known / consistent) is manageable, over or under.
> 
> I'm going to go call Amplitrex and collect my fees now




It's not about precision and overstatement, it's about Amplitrex AT1000 is using *wrong* parameters to measure tubes, and there are many of them, yet Amplitrex has never issued any update to correct its many errors that reported by its users. So it's not the most reliable as you had claimed. 

Leakage and short test is a basic element to test for testers, almost all testers have the short test and many have leakage test, it's not a specialty from Amplitrex.


----------



## cddc

If I recall correctly, the emission test on Amplitrex AT1000 that measures the ability of tubes to emit electrons is also wrong. The correct method to measure tube emission is to link grids to plates, then treat the tube as a diode and measure the conductivity between cathode and plate/grids. However, Amplitrex AT1000 measures the tube plate current instead and call it emission test, so Amplitrex makes up its own fake emission tests


----------



## TLO

Regardlessly, end of the day, the test result from whatever testers can only be used as a reference. Dont take it too seriously that is exact measurement, you are going to make yourself too paranoid to enjoy your music....just my opinion, please dont knock my head
To me, it is a good sign that sellers are taking responsibility, testing the tubes and to their best knowledge in providing as much info as possible on the tubes they are selling. At least, we know it is not going to be DOA or one of the plates is dead. This is the exact reason I dont buy tubes with no test result but described as tested strong or good. A 10 years old kid can do that too as long as he knows how to use the keyboard.


----------



## David222

cddc said:


> It's not about precision and overstatement, it's about Amplitrex AT1000 is using *wrong* parameters to measure tubes, and there are many of them, yet Amplitrex has never issued any update to correct its many errors that reported by its users. So it's not the most reliable as you had claimed.
> 
> Leakage and short test is a basic element to test for testers, almost all testers have the short test and many have leakage test, it's not a specialty from Amplitrex.



I removed the word "most" from Post #5,953  to brighten your day   💡

I'm just sharing thoughts...which is why I try and remember to post using words like prefer and perhaps... simply sharing ideas that I hope others might find useful (or not).

At the end of the day, I usually buy from the same ~5 tube sellers globally, of which 2 use AT1000 and the others have varying machines, all of whom are longstanding suppliers to the head-fi community.  So, for me, it's a balance between earns-trust and data.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I probably wouldn't overthink the tube testing too much, tubes have very long usable life even if they don't measure 100% NOS.  For a 6SN7, assuming the sections are reasonably well-matched (they do not need to be perfectly matched), they should work well and not translate to any noticeable channel imbalance.  I buy tubes that don't test 100% NOS all the time, because in a real circuit it doesn't matter assuming the voltage gain at the chosen operating point is more or less equal between the two channels.


----------



## DenverW

I usually allow up to 10% variance in the sections.  More than that and I get wary of the tube.  I’ve never been able to hear a testing variance under 10% with my ears of stone.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
While we're on the subject.
How do you read the values and what do the values mean in the tester afterwards?
And when does it become critical where you recognise that they are critical during the sale.
Sometimes I see 70/60, sometimes not much, sometimes less.

A crash course to read up on this would be helpful.


----------



## bcowen

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> While we're on the subject.
> How do you read the values and what do the values mean in the tester afterwards?
> And when does it become critical where you recognise that they are critical during the sale.
> ...


Depends entirely on the tester being used.  A crash course would be 40 pages long to cover _some_ of it.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Depends entirely on the tester being used.  A crash course would be 40 pages long to cover _some_ of it.


…and for more than a few sellers a ‘crash course’ on calibration & maintenance of tube testers is _sorely_ needed…😒


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …and for more than a few sellers a ‘crash course’ on calibration & maintenance of tube testers is _sorely_ needed…😒


LOL!  And a proper RTFM would apply as well, except in many cases there isn't one.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 22, 2022)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> While we're on the subject.
> How do you read the values and what do the values mean in the tester afterwards?
> And when does it become critical where you recognise that they are critical during the sale.
> ...



Here is a link to an article that goes over the basics of the two most common types of testers, emission and mutual conductance (aka transconductance).

http://www.tungsol.com/html/faqs7.html

Emission testers basically operate the tube as a diode and give a measurement of the emissive capabilities of the cathode, the result is given as a percentage, with 100% being considered NOS.  This is the most basic type of tester and gives some idea of remaining tube lifespan.  However, it doesn't tell you much about the actual operating conditions of the tube.

A more advanced type of tester is a mutual conductance tester, the likes of a Hickok.  These types of testers measure mutual conductance of the tube at a specific operating point.  Mutual conductance (gm) is one of the three tube constants, the others being amplification factor (mu), and plate resistance (rp).  They are related by the equation mu = gm x rp.  The amplification factor (mu) is what is going to affect the practical voltage gain of the tube.  If mu for two sections of a tube or two different channels of an amplifier differs significantly, you may hear a channel imbalance.  But these testers do not measure mu, they measure gm.  By the equation, they are directly proportional assuming rp is constant (it isn't, but close enough to be assumed).  So basically you can infer that mu will be at its proper specification if gm is too, that's the idea at least, reality is different but good enough to be practical.

Gm testers will either give a direct value for gm (2600 micromhos for the 6SN7, for instance) OR they will give a value based on a normalized scale created by the tester manufacturer.  For example, the Hickok TV-7D/U has its own gm scale and gives a value based on that scale that must be compared to the reference value given in the tester manual.

Okay, so for emission testers, you will see the test result as a percentage.  For gm testers, you will see either A) a direct value of gm in micromhos that must be compared to the reference value from the tube datasheet or B) a value based on the normalized scale for that specific tester.  For B, the seller will often say what the minimum reference value is for that tester, which is often considered to be 60% of a NOS value.  So they might say something like "tested 64 on a calibrated Hickok TV-7D/U with 45 being minimum", or they might just say "tested 64/45 on a calibrated Hickok TV-7D/U".  If 45 is the 60% of NOS gm based on the Hickok scale, some simple math would tell you that 64 would be roughly 85% of a NOS gm value.

That's the basic idea.  However some sellers will use backslashes when tubes have two different sections, like a 6SN7.  They might write it as "2700/2600 with 2600 being NOS" or "66/68 with 45 being minimum" in the case of gm testers with normalized scales, so watch out for that.

One more thing, the units of transconductance.  By Ohm's low, Ohm = V/A.  The units of the mutual conductance, A/V, are the inverse, the reason it is written as mho (yeah, it's literally just ohm backwards).  So a millimho is mA/V, a micromho is  μA/V.  Transconductance of solid state components is much higher these days, and everything is expressed in Siemens (S) which is equivalent to mhos (A/V).

So, 1S = 1mho = 1 A/V = 1,000 mA/V  = 1,000,000 μA/V = 1,000,000 micromhos.

That is the crash course.


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 22, 2022)

.


----------



## TLO

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> While we're on the subject.
> How do you read the values and what do the values mean in the tester afterwards?
> And when does it become critical where you recognise that they are critical during the sale.
> ...


If u r into tube rolling, it is advisable to start collecting the datasheet of each makes, go here http://www.r-type.org/
and download the pdf files. Then, search for the supplement or data table for each tester like TV-7D/U, etc, they have their own recommended reading...you can find these online, just google.


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> If u r into tube rolling, it is advisable to start collecting the datasheet of each makes, go here http://www.r-type.org/
> and download the pdf files. Then, search for the supplement or data table for each tester like TV-7D/U, etc, they have their own recommended reading...you can find these online, just google.


A good place to start for tester data:

http://bama.edebris.com/manuals


----------



## JTbbb

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here is a link to an article that goes over the basics of the two most common types of testers, emission and mutual conductance (aka transconductance).
> 
> http://www.tungsol.com/html/faqs7.html
> 
> ...


Very interesting reading, thank you. Now I have to admit that I am one of the many who struggle to fully understand this subject, thus have bow to those with more knowledge/professionally trained. I have come to know an electronics engineer who specialises in tube amp and tube tester repair and rebuilds, so have thus entrusted some of my tubes to be tested. He has told me that the tests that really show a tubes worth is measuring 
Plate Current/Trans Conductance PC/TC. The tester he uses is an AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester.

Below is a pair of 5998’s I have had tested with the results. They sound wonderful as a pair in my Euforia amp. It can be seen though that there is a marked difference in the Plate Current on one of the tubes, which is utterly non detectable with it’s current use. However, several posts prior to this one, there is some discussion about just when would a difference be detectable? I am at some point taking delivery of a much modified Bottlehead Crack, and it will be interesting to see if this tube has any detectable channel imbalance.


----------



## David222 (Feb 23, 2022)

bcowen said:


> A good place to start for tester data:
> 
> http://bama.edebris.com/manuals



.


----------



## David222

TLO said:


> If u r into tube rolling, it is advisable to start collecting the datasheet of each makes, go here http://www.r-type.org/
> and download the pdf files. Then, search for the supplement or data table for each tester like TV-7D/U, etc, they have their own recommended reading...you can find these online, just google.



+1 for The Valve Museum ...super helpful tool.  Another useful database for looking up specs is http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/tubesearch.php


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> +1 for The Valve Museum ...super helpful tool.  Another useful database for looking up specs is http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/tubesearch.php


Yup, and Duncan also has a program (TDSL) you can download:

http://www.duncanamps.com/tdslpe/download.html

Free and very small in size. It hasn't been updated in quite a while so a lot of the external links in the 'Data sheet links" tab no longer work, but the basic data is right and gives you a very quick reference to a lot of parameters for a lot of different tubes.  I've used it for many, many years.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Feb 23, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Very interesting reading, thank you. Now I have to admit that I am one of the many who struggle to fully understand this subject, thus have bow to those with more knowledge/professionally trained. I have come to know an electronics engineer who specialises in tube amp and tube tester repair and rebuilds, so have thus entrusted some of my tubes to be tested. He has told me that the tests that really show a tubes worth is measuring
> Plate Current/Trans Conductance PC/TC. The tester he uses is an AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester.
> 
> Below is a pair of 5998’s I have had tested with the results. They sound wonderful as a pair in my Euforia amp. It can be seen though that there is a marked difference in the Plate Current on one of the tubes, which is utterly non detectable with it’s current use. However, several posts prior to this one, there is some discussion about just when would a difference be detectable? I am at some point taking delivery of a much modified Bottlehead Crack, and it will be interesting to see if this tube has any detectable channel imbalance.



Well the thing is the Euforia is a cathode follower OTL.  The output stage does not result in any voltage gain in this type of circuit, in fact it actually will lose a little voltage gain.  The output tubes in this case do not increase volume so to speak, what they do is generate _current_ gain, meaning they lower the output impedance of the amplifier.  A cathode follower operates at what is called "unity gain", meaning a voltage gain of 1 (in reality, it  is a little less than 1).  That is why you can use a 6AS7G and a 5998 in the same circuit and get roughly the same volume despite the fact that they have different amplification factors (mu).  So something like a channel imbalance will likely be even harder to detect in this case.  Large differences in transconductance between the two cathode follower tubes might create a perceptible channel imbalance however.

In a common cathode amplifier stage, a more typical tube amplifier stage like the Euphoria 6SN7 input, differences in mu will result in a channel imbalance.  But as I said, mu is not measured, we measure things like gm and plate current to get an understanding of how close the tube is to its stock operating specs.  In terms of when it would make a difference, I guess it depends at what point an imbalance between two channel becomes perceptible.  A 1dB difference between two channel translates to around a 12% difference in voltage gain.  If we make the assumption that transconductance is directly proportional to mu, then perhaps 12% a good rule of thumb.  Someone else said they go by a 10%, which seems reasonable.

I actually use an electronic curve tracer to measure my tubes, so I am able to measure all of the tube constants, including mu, as well as trace operating curves for tubes whose datasheets are not readily available, which is very valuable for designing circuits.


----------



## David222

NU Grey Glass arrived today.  Have not tried NU before -- looking forward to it based on what I've read on this thread.


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> NU Grey Glass arrived today.  Have not tried NU before -- looking forward to it based on what I've read on this thread.


Nice!!


----------



## paradoxper

Took me a few months to find these stupid tubes, more troubling than any previous tube.Ha.


----------



## LoryWiv

paradoxper said:


> Took me a few months to find these stupid tubes, more troubling than any previous tube.Ha.


Worth the effort?


----------



## paradoxper

LoryWiv said:


> Worth the effort?


Monday I'll put them through their paces and we'll see.


----------



## Odin412

paradoxper said:


> Took me a few months to find these stupid tubes, more troubling than any previous tube.Ha.


Very nice! Are the tubes actually blue or is it a refection?


----------



## paradoxper

Odin412 said:


> Very nice! Are the tubes actually blue or is it a refection?


They are blue. They're referred to as Blue Glass just as well.


----------



## Pondoro

So I got a Sylvania 6SN7 free, I’m told it tests good, but the plastic locator pin is broken off. I’m afraid I’ll put it in wrong. I don’t want to damage my Saga. Should I just throw it away?


----------



## DenverW

Pondoro said:


> So I got a Sylvania 6SN7 free, I’m told it tests good, but the plastic locator pin is broken off. I’m afraid I’ll put it in wrong. I don’t want to damage my Saga. Should I just throw it away?


You can usually tell where the locator is by looking at the base.  Then you just make sure it is aligned properly, and be sure.  I had a Ken rad with no guide rod and it worked fine, I just lined it up.


----------



## Pondoro

DenverW said:


> You can usually tell where the locator is by looking at the base.  Then you just make sure it is aligned properly, and be sure.  I had a Ken rad with no guide rod and it worked fine, I just lined it up.


Yes I can see it, but I’m afraid I’ll get it wrong and harm the Saga.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Pondoro said:


> Yes I can see it, but I’m afraid I’ll get it wrong and harm the Saga.



https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/keyway-replacement-piece-octal-tubes


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/keyway-replacement-piece-octal-tubes


Those work great.  I've used them on a couple tubes with broken guide pins.  Add a couple drops of super glue to hold them in place and no more worries.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 4, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> Yes I can see it, but I’m afraid I’ll get it wrong and harm the Saga.


Get some of the replacement key guides that @L0rdGwyn linked.  Then you only have to get it right one time.

Besides, unless it's a GE or Philips ECG, throwing away an otherwise good tube is considered an audio crime in many jurisdictions, punishable by solid state.  😂


----------



## Pondoro

L0rdGwyn said:


> https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/keyway-replacement-piece-octal-tubes


I just ordered 4 of these.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Besides, unless it's a GE or Philips ECG, throwing away an otherwise good tube is considered an audio crime in many jurisdictions, punishable by solid state _during solitary confinement_ 😂


FTFY…Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## paradoxper

The Blues are a winner. Very similar in staging to the MELZ providing better definition and tighter bass what they may lack is attack decay in comparative context and a seemingly more neutral target especially through the mid range which means rolling out the RCA greys for better companionship. Really quite surprised how good these tubes are. Grovels.


----------



## Deleeh

paradoxper said:


> The Blues are a winner. Very similar in staging to the MELZ providing better definition and tighter bass what they may lack is attack decay in comparative context and a seemingly more neutral target especially through the mid range which means rolling out the RCA greys for better companionship. Really quite surprised how good these tubes are. Grovels.


Hello,
how does the sound tend to be warm, cold neutral?
Do you perceive it as bright or dark or in the middle?

I have read a lot about the tube but it was not always conclusive.
It's supposed to come back this year.
We'll see whether it comes with updates or without.
It has hardly been rated badly, if at all, when you read about it.
I would have bought it if there had been a few back then.


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 7, 2022)

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> how does the sound tend to be warm, cold neutral?
> Do you perceive it as bright or dark or in the middle?
> 
> ...


I alluded they trend neutral and I perceive them to be middle treading more dark as they're quite smooth and lack an excess of sparkle with minimal decay/reverb which results in a clean plain. My gut says pair them with the Ken-Rad VT231 or run in a quad for a optimal complement, so I'm looking for another pair. Sigh.

Through the course of 5 listening hours with a few switches, I find the Blues to really be straight forward: tighter bass of any tube I currently have heard with a little softness through the treble range -- compounded with the RCA grey plate which can work but leaning a little dynamically limp -- with the Ken-Rad VT231, I lose too much space play > reverb and decay trails. This is an overtly clean complement which leans quite solid state sounding, a little more bloom is desired -- with the Hytron I am finding a really sweet play, midrange come through with a little more clarity but also full body and a striking bass punch that rides a balanced line. But presence is, say, too dry.

The MELZ 1578 is the conundrum as it presents the sweeter balance with more air, more presence, more 'there' without swinging too warm or muddled.
However, now I am forced to run the Blues as the cathode and this presents a poor value system, although a very, very enjoyable listening experience.
These damn 1578 are something special.

I will continue to search for another Blue pair and experiment as a quad. I feel confident I will likely run close to VT231 performance, I may be hoping it might just be warm enough to work.

I still favor MELZ 1578 and RCA grey pairing as it fulfills the sweet spot. Slaved to 1266 TC this is some of the most complete sound I've heard.
I feel spoiled and greedy. Ever curious.

This is too fun.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Get some of the replacement key guides that @L0rdGwyn linked.  Then you only have to get it right one time.
> 
> Besides, unless it's a GE or Philips ECG, throwing away an otherwise good tube is considered an audio crime in many jurisdictions, punishable by solid state.  😂


A more cruel punishment would be listening for an hour of GE or ECG tube routed "music" 🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> A more cruel punishment would be listening for an hour of GE or ECG tube routed “music” Marilyn Manson…🤣🤣 😖😖…


FTFY…Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## rawheadjim

I wish Sophia would produce or procure more of these, they would sell quickly!  Is there any confirmation that will definitely happen?  If so, I would order 4.  

I emailed Western Electric to see if I could pre-order and provide credit card info, as if they were going to release 6SN7's.  They responded quickly:  
Unfortunately we are not making 6SN7. We do make 300B's and you can check online at *westernelectric.com/300b*.


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,

i have write a Mail to Sophia Electric month ago,and has said summer 22.
But actually the War in Russia/Ukraine that can be go longer.
Save the Tube when you would is maybe a chance.

Western Electric do actually nothing in 6SN7 oder 6AS7G Tube,very sadly.


----------



## paradoxper

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> 
> i have write a Mail to Sophia Electric month ago,and has said summer 22.
> But actually the War in Russia/Ukraine that can be go longer.
> ...


Two of their suppliers clarified Summer 22 and Sophia also confirmed with some certainty a production run would resume.

I'll take that to heart while still flushing the streets.


----------



## paradoxper

Got a Psvane Treasure series coming in. Why not.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 8, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Got a Psvane Treasure series coming in. Why not.


Is that the CV181-T, or CV181-TII ?

I'm really enjoying my Melz '54 + Cetron 7236, but I would be open to trying a Shuguang Premium Treasure CV181-Z or PSVANE CV181-TII Classic Version / PSVANE CV181-T Classic


----------



## paradoxper

hmscott said:


> Is that the CV181-T, or CV181-TII ?
> 
> I'm really enjoying my Melz '54 + Cetron 7236, but I would be open to trying a Shuguang Premium Treasure CV181-Z or PSVANE CV181-TII / PSVANE CV181-T Classic


My understanding the Treasure II variant is the Carbon grey glass which is marketed as more refined than the black.

So to be clear, I picked up the Psvane TII.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 8, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> My understanding the Treasure II variant is the Carbon grey glass which is marketed as more refined than the black.
> 
> So to be clear, I picked up the Psvane TII.


The same store I linked above for the Psvane TII "Classic Version" also list a slightly more expensive Psvane CV181-TII "Collection Version", from previous series Psvane sells a "factory select and matched" Collection version of their best tubes.

I'm not sure if a single tube from the "Collection version" is woth the extra, but if it is a select tube it might be worth a few more bucks.

Also, this Psvane series are called "Art Series", not Treasure - The Treasure name is used by Shuguang for many of their top tube models.  Although I have seen US sellers mix up the naming in their listings, maybe they think the "-T" means Treasure?

The Psvane website doesn't mention "Treasure", they use "Classic", "Art", "Legend", and "Acme" Series naming:
http://www.psvane.com/Wap/en
Naming, versions aside, I'm very interested in what you think of your Psvane CV181-TII's; Thank you for sharing.


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 8, 2022)

hmscott said:


> The same store I linked above for the Psvane TII "Classic Version" also list a slightly more expensive Psvane CV181-TII "Collection Version", from previous series Psvane sells a "factory select and matched" Collection version of their best tubes.
> 
> I'm not sure if a single tube from the "Collection version" is woth the extra, but if it is a select tube it might be worth a few more bucks.
> 
> ...


This is one area I dislike their convolution tactic.

 Shuguang is Psvane for all purpose. Psvane is former Shuguang engineer team split by politics -- Psvane then bought Guiguang which carried previous Shuguang chief design engineer.

 So these variants are all the same relative tube with pixie dust. I do believe grey glass vs black glass sound characteristic difference exist.
Their marketing is strong. The Collection Version is just screened high grade testing.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/psv...tion-of-different-models.693209/post-10077503


----------



## hmscott (Mar 8, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> This is one area I dislike their convolution tactic.
> 
> Shuguang is Psvane for all purpose. Psvane is former Shuguang engineer team split by politics -- Psvane then bought Guiguang which carried previous Shuguang chief design engineer.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate that summary you linked from back in 2013, from a Psvane employee, it is very helpful.

And, thank you to funn chen (Member of the Trade: PSVANE Tube).
It doesn't look like he posted anything else...or it was removed, he has more "Likes" than Posts that are showing...


funn chen said:


> Shuguang Classic Grade CV181-Z
> Shuguang Premium Grade CV181-Z
> 
> Premium grade tube is better than classic grade tube (In the parameters, appearance, packing ect.)
> ...


elecdol.com domain was freed in 2017: https://www.justdropped.com/drops/082817com.html
There is a twitter remanent:  https://twitter.com/elecdol
An old youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYTUbm3ns4QHvI2uFyg2_9g

The Aliexpress stores like the one I linked advertise matching tubes in pairs, quads, octals, and show equipment capable of doing so.  It was nice to get the Psvane 12AU7-S "Collection" Matched pair boxed with the measurement cards showing they were matched.  No need for matched tube pairs with the TA-26, only 1 tube needed.

And, I've been wondering about this Globe Tube from PSVANE too, I noticed it has *"oldchen"* in the name and written on the tube envelope!, funn chen? :

PSVANE CV181-SE Vacuum Tube HIFI EXQUIS Special Customized oldchen CV181 Equivalent 6N8P 6H8C 6SN7 Matched Pair
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32853013485.html

"*Silver plate glass same quality than PSVANE cv181 mark TII*"

There is also an "oldchen" populated "oldchen" preamplifier, but the title calls it a Laochen?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001836940250.html

There are more than a few variants of less expensive Psvane 6SN7 labeled versions of this tube, without "oldchen" or the same Grey Silver envelope.  One has a Black coating and the other has a "Silver Reflective"  coating.  I've also seen Psvane 6SN7 Globe tubes, with relabeled Linlai 6SN7 versions and blue envelope versions.

I wonder how the "oldchen" CV-181-SE sounds?  And, I wonder if that Globe will fit in the TA-26 recessed socket.


----------



## MacMan31

So I have some new tubes to try out. These came with a Schiit Saga Plus but for now I'm going to try them in my Schiit Lyr 3. I don't have an amp to pair with my Saga Plus yet.


----------



## Deleeh

Can you show us the Rogers or is it just the package?


----------



## paradoxper

hmscott said:


> I really appreciate that summary you linked from back in 2013, from a Psvane, it is very helpful.
> 
> And, thank you to funn chen (Member of the Trade: PSVANE Tube).
> It doesn't look like he posted anything else...or it was removed, he has more "Likes" than Posts that are showing...
> ...


I read the SE compares competitively to the TII although the listener preferred the latter. Same for the Shuguang CV181-Z. I may look at the SE a little later but first I'll feel out if the TII is something I enjoy. It is nice to confirm from Grant Fidelity the authenticity, I also saw the relabeled Linlai which gave me some pause and I've seen truckloads of weird tennis ball variants which furthered trepidation. I'm unsure what the oldchen refers to but perhaps it's a custom contract similar to the David Shaw variant.
Is the silver reflective the same you saw as the carbon greys?


----------



## hmscott (Mar 8, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> I read the SE compares competitively to the TII although the listener preferred the latter. Same for the Shuguang CV181-Z. I may look at the SE a little later but first I'll feel out if the TII is something I enjoy. It is nice to confirm from Grant Fidelity the authenticity, I also saw the relabeled Linlai which gave me some pause and I've seen truckloads of weird tennis ball variants which furthered trepidation. I'm unsure what the oldchen refers to but perhaps it's a custom contract similar to the David Shaw variant.
> Is the silver reflective the same you saw as the carbon greys?


What made me think it might be a honorific naming from someone at Psvane or Shuguang was because there are no "plain" Psvane Globe CV181 variants, SE or otherwise, other than the "oldchen" SE variant and the "oldchen" tube is also labeled "made by Psvane".  There are no other "Globe" variants of the CV181-TII, that I've found:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32853013485.html


There are 6SN7 "globe" variants, here is the one with a "shiny" coating:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000400863733.html


But, after I saw the "oldchen" equipment - there are more than that preamplifier, I also think that it must be a contract with Psvane and they've secured a cool CV181-TII variant as the "oldchen" CV181-SE, pretty cool for them 
If anyone decides to get one of those "cool" Globe variants, please let us know how they sound, and fit in your amplifier.  

*Update*: I checked on the Psvane company website, and did a search on the CV181-SE, and there was nothing found, so it looks like a contract job and not a Psvane core model:
http://www.psvane.com/Wap/channel/search/l/en


----------



## MacMan31

Deleeh said:


> Can you show us the Rogers or is it just the package?



Here is a photo of all the tubes.


----------



## Mr Trev

hmscott said:


> What made me think it might be a honorific naming from someone at Psvane or Shuguang was because there are no "plain" Psvane Globe CV181 variants, SE or otherwise, other than the "oldchen" SE variant and the "oldchen" tube is also labeled "made by Psvane".  There are no other "Globe" variants of the CV181-TII, that I've found:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32853013485.html
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno. That bottom one looks like they just glued a tube base to a Xmas tree ornament


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## Ranger Ron

MacMan31 said:


> Here is a photo of all the tubes.


Looks like you might have a 6SL7 in there. Check that oval plate RCA meatball logo tube…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I dunno. That bottom one looks like they just glued a tube base to a Xmas tree ornament


😂😂😂


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## MacMan31

Ranger Ron said:


> Looks like you might have a 6SL7 in there. Check that oval plate RCA meatball logo tube…



What am I looking for? Also the JAN one next to it does not have a centre pin. Is that an issue?


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> What am I looking for? *Also the JAN one next to it does not have a centre pin. Is that an issue?*


Not if you get it plugged onto the socket correctly, and that one may be the best tube of the bunch. Devices as shown in the link can fix it so you don't accidentally plug it in wrong one day. 

https://tubedepot.com/products/octal-tube-keyway-replacement


----------



## hmscott (Mar 9, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> I dunno. That bottom one looks like they just glued a tube base to a Xmas tree ornament


Yup, I think the reflections / glare might end up being a bit much, especially if you have 4 of them side by side 

There are a bunch of other "globe" envelope coating variants:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002891864130.html


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002853105969.html

Another "oldchen" labeled variant, with a "smoked glass" envelope.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32894832797.html


The Globe design must be very popular in China, there are even more variants, but the more I see them the more they look like Bathroom Vanity Lights to me. 

I wonder if the larger air volume inside and the larger tube envelope surface area on the outside help stabilize the temperature better than the "tighter" fitting narrow glass envelopes?

Or, if the larger air volume and larger surface area might cause it to take a lot longer to warm up and stay at an optimal temperature with a cold ambient temperature - like right now - my E180CC's take longer to "warm up" than the shorter/smaller 12AT7's and sometimes cause the AMP to "timeout" and show a "red" indicator - fail to engage at startup.

I wonder if that is why with the same "innards" from the CV181-TII that listener prefered the sound of the narrower envelope on the CV181-TII?


----------



## hmscott (Mar 8, 2022)

MacMan31 said:


> Here is a photo of all the tubes.


There are more than a few nice tubes there 

I especially like the Grey Coated VT-231 6SN7GT on the top row, 2nd from the Right.

"The early RCA "GT" types were usually in either a medium or short envelope and have a grey RF shield sprayed on inside the glass. The GE and KenRad types were similar, but the inner glass coating is deep black. These tubes usually have flat black plates, like large 12AX7 blackplates. The military versions of these are the VT-231 and are in very high demand today."
https://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm


----------



## Ranger Ron

MacMan31 said:


> What am I looking for? Also the JAN one next to it does not have a centre pin. Is that an issue?





bcowen said:


> Not if you get it plugged onto the socket correctly, and that one may be the best tube of the bunch. Devices as shown in the link can fix it so you don't accidentally plug it in wrong one day.
> 
> https://tubedepot.com/products/octal-tube-keyway-replacemen





MacMan31 said:


> What am I looking for? Also the JAN one next to it does not have a centre pin. Is that an issue?


Just glancing at your tube pics it looks like you have a few 6SL7 tubes sprinkled amongst your 6SN7 tubes. If your amp can take them both even better.


----------



## paradoxper

hmscott said:


> What made me think it might be a honorific naming from someone at Psvane or Shuguang was because there are no "plain" Psvane Globe CV181 variants, SE or otherwise, other than the "oldchen" SE variant and the "oldchen" tube is also labeled "made by Psvane".  There are no other "Globe" variants of the CV181-TII, that I've found:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32853013485.html
> 
> 
> ...


Ok. It drives me crazy to not know origins. I'll run the TII and then pick up at least the SE. I think I'll try the Full Music as well just to complete the obscurity.

I hope they fit. LOL


----------



## MacMan31

hmscott said:


> There are more than a few nice tubes there
> 
> I especially like the Grey Coated VT-231 6SN7GT on the top row, 2nd from the Right.
> 
> ...



That VT-231 does not have a centre pin. Another poster mentioned I could use a small adapter to regain that pin. I don't know anything about these tubes as I'm still pretty new to the tube game. 



Ranger Ron said:


> Just glancing at your tube pics it looks like you have a few 6SL7 tubes sprinkled amongst your 6SN7 tubes. If your amp can take them both even better.



My amp is the Schiit Lyr 3. I got the tubes alongside a Schiit Saga Plus.


----------



## TLO (Mar 8, 2022)

MacMan31 said:


> That VT-231 does not have a centre pin. Another poster mentioned I could use a small adapter to regain that pin. I don't know anything about these tubes as I'm still pretty new to the tube game.
> 
> 
> 
> My amp is the Schiit Lyr 3. I got the tubes alongside a Schiit Saga Plus.


Actually, you dont really need that adapter as long as you know how to recognize the pin number. Note that pin 7 and 8 are the heater pins. Now, you will need a multimeter to check the pins on the tube, heater pin 7 and 8 will have continuity. Once you find out which are pin 7 and 8 on the tube, just make a permanent marking on the side of the base between pin 1 and 8. Just align the marking with the groove on the socket whenever you insert the tube.

P.S. My bad, I should have also pointed out that you count the pin number going clockwise on the tube, in case you dont know.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


That would be torture 😨😨


----------



## HTSkywalker

hmscott said:


> Is that the CV181-T, or CV181-TII ?
> 
> I'm really enjoying my Melz '54 + Cetron 7236, but I would be open to trying a Shuguang Premium Treasure CV181-Z or PSVANE CV181-TII Classic Version / PSVANE CV181-T Classic


In case you do so, tell us how they may compare to the highly acclaimed Melz 54 please.


----------



## rishabhgkp

Hi, got these pics from a guy dealer.
Are these the preferred Sylvania VT231s?

I need to drive Verite Closed by Elise.
Also looking to get TungSol 6080 and KT88 as power tubes.


----------



## rishabhgkp




----------



## hmscott (Mar 9, 2022)

HTSkywalker said:


> In case you do so, tell us how they may compare to the highly acclaimed Melz 54 please.


Well, I've had 2 Melz a '53 and a '54, the '53 developed a "distant thunder" noise that grew in time, I've returned it.  The sound of that one was crisp, clear, with a wide soundstage and good Bass, an improvement to my tastes to the VT-231's, and even more enjoyable than the CBS JAN 5692.  Except for the noise which came up over the audio, the clean audio was beautiful.  This '53 had Black Plates and was slightly taller than the 2nd Melz '54, and in comparison side by side was more impressive looking:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275152610761
The seller was great, I'd also purchased a few 6H13C's on that order.  He already has refunded my return shipping and refunded the tube as well.  Hopefully we will negociate a pair of 1578's in May...he is now listed as based in Uralsk, Kazakhstan...

The '54 Melz is a bit shorter, with grey plates, and really stepped up the Bass, impact, and clarity - with a black background - no noise at all.  It was a bit of a surprise as I didn't expect the sound that was coming out of it.  It really does give a transformative sound even with the '61 6H13C Svetlana, but when I put in the 7236 the combination has a clear focused impactful sound unlike what the 7236+5692 provides, my previous favorite, the '54 Melz made true the 7236 description better than my other 6SN7 tubes:
*7236 - medium gain - great bass, fast and dynamic. Almost SS sounding*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-5441008


https://www.ebay.com/itm/154672314531

It would be awesome if any of the CV-181's overshadowed this '54 Melz, but just in case I'm going to order another '54 Melz from the same box.


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 9, 2022)

hmscott said:


> Well, I've had 2 Melz a '53 and a '54, the '53 developed a "distant thunder" noise that grew in time, I've returned it.  The sound of that one was crisp, clear, with a wide soundstage and good Bass, an improvement to my tastes to the VT-231's, and even more enjoyable than the CBS JAN 5692.  Except for the noise which came up over the audio, the clean audio was beautiful.  This '53 had Black Plates and was slightly taller than the 2nd Melz '54, and in comparison side by side was more impressive looking:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275152610761
> The seller was great, I'd also purchased a few 6H13C's on that order.  He already has refunded my return shipping and refunded the tube as well.  Hopefully we will negociate a pair of 1578's in May...
> ...


Impressive ! which amp and headphones were you using ?
Not sure an SS sounding is a good thing though 🙄 IMHO


----------



## hmscott (Mar 9, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> I read the SE compares competitively to the TII although the listener preferred the latter. Same for the Shuguang CV181-Z. I may look at the SE a little later but first I'll feel out if the TII is something I enjoy. It is nice to confirm from Grant Fidelity the authenticity, I also saw the relabeled Linlai which gave me some pause and I've seen truckloads of weird tennis ball variants which furthered trepidation. I'm unsure what the oldchen refers to but perhaps it's a custom contract similar to the David Shaw variant.
> Is the silver reflective the same you saw as the carbon greys?


I should mention that there is another CV181, which was made in the '50's, and although it fits in the place of the 6SN7 it draws 2x the current, so you need to verify that your amp design/parts can supply the 2x current without "blowing up" long term, or even short term.

The reason I mention this is that I see TubeDepot still has these in inventory, and they say they will work with customers to figure out if your amp can support it:

Mullard ECC32 / CV181
https://tubedepot.com/products/mullard-ecc32-cv181

"The Mullard ECC32 / CV181 is in the 6SN7 family of tubes. It is not a direct replacement, but for situations where it does work, it is one of the best sounding replacements you can use for ANY 6SN7. It really brings music to life. If you want to know if this tube will work in your system, just contact us and we will help to figure this out with you. We have both black base (Marked Mullard) and brown base (Marked Miniwatt) versions. These have the 1950's round / black plates."
Price is for a *Single Tube - $249.95*

As a further warning, here is a quote from Post #1 in this very thread:

*"A few words regarding the Mullard CV181:*
This tube is highly sought-after. BUT, it is NOT a 6SN7. It is an ECC32, which is NOT a drop-in replacement for 6SN7. As mentioned earlier, the current draw for this tube is 50% higher than a 6SN7. *This will blow most power transformers over time.* And power transformers rarely die alone – they usually take some other parts with them when departing this plane.
The higher current draw also results in higher gain – something which many people forget when trying out this tube. *All other factors remaining constant, a higher gain results in a higher volume, which can in turn result in the (mistaken) impression that the tube has a ‘fuller’ sound.*
Which _may or may not_ have contributed to this particular tube’s much sought after status. Food for thought, indeed.
_“It's interesting to note that a single dealer created virtually the whole myth and market for the CV181. He made a lot of bucks off them because he had an almost limitless South African source for the tube.” Robert H."_
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-1380036

I haven't checked the specs for the Chinese CV181 variants to see if they are closer in specification to the 6SN7 or if they match the original Mullard ECC32/CV181 high current requirements, so perhaps some additional research might be a good idea?

*Update: I didn't realize how expensive the Mullard ECC32/CV181 was outside of TubeDepot, like way more expensive than their $249!*
https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_fro....m570.l1313&_nkw=Mullard+ECC32+CV181&_sacat=0


----------



## hmscott (Mar 9, 2022)

HTSkywalker said:


> Impressive ! which amp and headphones were you using ?
> Not sure an SS sounding is a good thing though 🙄 IMHO


The amp is the Xduoo TA-26, an "upgraded" DarkVoice 336SE design. Better parts, build, so far reliable for $319 MSRP. I was given mine from Xduoo for helping out testing different tubes and giving feedback to Xduoo on the Xduoo TA-20 I purchased through Hifigo.com. That was a pleasant surprise as they never mentioned and I never asked for anything for playing with my own TA-20. I thought they were helping me by reading and answering my many questions. That was very nice of Xduoo. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/xduoo-amplifiers.682282/post-16731414

Well, yeah, I have a Topping A90 and FiiO M15, and the A90 is more SS sounding, with the M15 coming in between the A90 and TA-20 (a Hybrid Tube/SS headphone amp), and then there is the TA-26 with full on floppy warm tubes giving the full tubey effect, on up through the Sylvania Chrome Top Tall Boy 6SN7GTA jumping again with the 5692 - progressively focusing and tightening up the sound.  There is a real sense of clarity that begins to come out of the TA-26 with the 5692 compared to the VT-231's.

Then swapping my '50 RCA JAN 6AS7G for the Cetron 7236 Bass definition and slam jumps again into even tighter focus but with plenty of warmth, more tubey than even the most tubey 12AT7 variants in the TA-20 - right now the Mullard Heerlen Holland E180CC that really bring out the best of the TA-20, but the TA-26 with my Sennheiser HD660s's and Beyerdynamic 600 ohm DT880/DT990 really sings through the whole range of tube pairings, very enjoyable all.

My Hifiman Ananda has low impedance - 25 ohm, below the recommended 60-600ohm listed for the TA-26, but the Ananda actually sounds great on the TA-26!  The Ananda already was impressive on the TA-20, but on the TA-26 with "better" and better tubes, it sounds awesome on TA-26.  But, I've mostly been listening to the Sennheiser HD660s 150 ohm, and am contemplating getting an HD600 300 ohm and then an HD650 300 ohm, but that will take some time.

I was also very impressed with the TA-26 driving the 7HZ Timeless, it was a big surprise paired with the Cetron 7236 + Melz '54.  Noise free and very dynamic.  The Tubiness came through, but so did the clarity and focus.

I'm ordering a 4.4mm to 6.35 adapter, as most of my headphones / IEM's are kitted with 4.4mm ends.

The '57 CBS-Hytron Jan 5692 is certainly worth a listen, there are a pair of them for sale by the same seller on eBay, referenced near the end of this post:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/xduoo-amplifiers.682282/post-16855943

CBS JAN CHY 5692 6SN7 VACUUM TUBE DATE MATCHED PAIR BLACK PLATE NOS ORIGINAL BOX - $398.88
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224847906799?hash=item3459fac7ef:g:jn8AAOSwVC1iElUX

But, for me the 7236 is currently my favorite, with the Melz '54, hopefully things will calm down and Ukraine/Russia will be accessible again, or I'll find something from Romania / Bulgaria sellers still listing Melz on eBay...


----------



## paradoxper

hmscott said:


> I should mention that there is another CV181, which was made in the '50's, and although it fits in the place of the 6SN7 it draws 2x the current, so you need to verify that your amp design/parts can supply the 2x current without "blowing up" long term, or even short term.
> 
> The reason I mention this is that I see TubeDepot still has these in inventory, and they say they will work with customers to figure out if your amp can support it:
> 
> ...


I'm using these with the Freya on the CFA3. I feel quite achieved with the MELZ 1578 and RCA grey for the 1266 TC. I think Hytron almost has its partner -- I hope the TII is little more dynamic and crisper through the treble than the Sophia and this is paired with the Valkyria. MELZ 1578 and Sophia work wonderful with the edged SR1a.
But I feel a little guilty with the Ken-Rad sitting on the bench so I'll likely try to find a good mate. Double the current is a very big deal, the modern Treasure CV181 are 6SN7 spec so no worries. 

I was reading one of the Lyr threads and the 33s30 popped up, so this has piqued my curiosity as a 1578 side-hunt.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> I'm using these with the Freya on the CFA3. I feel quite achieved with the MELZ 1578 and RCA grey for the 1266 TC. I think Hytron almost has its partner -- I hope the TII is little more dynamic and crisper through the treble than the Sophia and this is paired with the Valkyria. MELZ 1578 and Sophia work wonderful with the edged SR1a.
> But I feel a little guilty with the Ken-Rad sitting on the bench so I'll likely try to find a good mate. Double the current is a very big deal, the modern Treasure CV181 are 6SN7 spec so no worries.
> 
> *I was reading one of the Lyr threads and the 33s30 popped up, so this has piqued my curiosity as a 1578 side-hunt.*


Here you go.  Internal construction looks very similar to an RCA 5692 which is what I believe it was based on.  So the question of the day: are these ridiculously expensive because of their sound, or because of rarity (and their sound is basically that of a 5692)?  I don't know myself, and at these prices I won't be finding out personally.    

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254718783919?hash=item3b4e6c31af:g:Hw8AAOSwcUJfX4PU


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> Here you go.  Internal construction looks very similar to an RCA 5692 which is what I believe it was based on.  So the question of the day: are these ridiculously expensive because of their sound, or because of rarity (and their sound is basically that of a 5692)?  I don't know myself, and at these prices I won't be finding out personally.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254718783919?hash=item3b4e6c31af:g:Hw8AAOSwcUJfX4PU


I am crazy though. I haven't done enough of my homework to conclude anything meaningful. My guts says they were briefly manufactured and somewhere caught a inflated supply/demand curve. I'd like to read a comparison with some known quantity beforehand.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 9, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Here you go.  Internal construction looks very similar to an RCA 5692 which is what I believe it was based on.  So the question of the day: are these ridiculously expensive because of their sound, or because of rarity (and their sound is basically that of a 5692)?  I don't know myself, and at these prices I won't be finding out personally.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254718783919?hash=item3b4e6c31af:g:Hw8AAOSwcUJfX4PU





paradoxper said:


> I am crazy though. I haven't done enough of my homework to conclude anything meaningful. My guts says they were briefly manufactured and somewhere caught a inflated supply/demand curve. I'd like to read a comparison with some known quantity beforehand.


He is one of the more overpriced sellers I've seen before on eBay, he has a nice "GE" relabeled as RCA 5692 listed for $500!, and some "nosebleed" priced Soviet 6SN7's for $1250, so perhaps from someone else those $4450 33s30b tubes might go for a lot less... or they might be well priced due to their rarity - and I am missing something about the specialness of the other "overpriced" tubes?


----------



## paradoxper

hmscott said:


> He is one of the more overpriced sellers I've seen before on eBay, he has a nice "GE" relabeled as RCA 5692 listed for $500!, and some "nosebleed" priced Soviet 6SN7's for $1250, so perhaps from someone else those $4450 33s30b tubes might go for a lot less... or they might be well priced due to their rarity - and I am missing something about the specialness of the other "overpriced" tubes?


If it hasn't been compared to the MELZ 1578, I ain't interested. My money can be better wasted stocking up.


----------



## Mr Trev

hmscott said:


> I should mention that there is another CV181,


I couldn't help but hearing this in Yoda's voice…


----------



## hmscott (Mar 9, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> I couldn't help but hearing this in Yoda's voice…


----------



## hmscott (Mar 9, 2022)

rishabhgkp said:


>


Well, the measurements sure are good, 2600 uMhos is "as new", and both have measurements right up there:

I think those are very nice 

IDK about the price, if it is as nice, but it is typical.  I paid around $100-$145 each for my VT-231's.

And, while there are small variations in sound, all 3 of my VT-231's sound the same on my TA-26, even the Black Glass Kenrad, so I don't think you can go wrong with those readings, and I've bought from that seller and he is a great guy.  Ships fast too.  It arrived surprisingly fast.  Not all of his stuff is at the top of the measurements possible, so it is important to look for the best results shown on his Amplitrex AT1000, but once you've found what you want, I think he is a good resource to purchase from.

I do get a better base response from the 6SN7GTA Sylvania Chrome Top Tall Boy - not a VT-231 era tube - and I've heard the 6SN7GTB also has similar stronger bass response, but I've not heard a GTB yet.

I am very new at this with limited experience, but I recognized the seller via his photo setup's, so I thought I'd share my experience with him, and my own VT-231's:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203211481973 Bought on sale @ $123.26
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133982172533 Photo shows 2 VT-231's, but he split off 1 of the VT-231s and included a single 6SN7GTA Sylvania Tall Boy Chrome Top in price.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255309286381 $100
And, I had a great experience with all 3 of those sellers as well,

I am sure someone else here with far more experience can give you better/more info on these particular tubes and what might be a better buy/price in the VT-231 realm.

@rishabhgkp and I are discussing via DM, I'll also list what I bought from that dealer so others can check out what he has, which are a lot of high end down to very affordable 6SN7's and variants, all from India, and he also has RCA 6AS7G's...

6AS7G RCA Headphone Amplifier Tube Made in U.S.A Amplitrex Tested#309008
https://www.ebay.com/itm/194795484634
See other items


----------



## HTSkywalker

hmscott said:


> The amp is the Xduoo TA-26, an "upgraded" DarkVoice 336SE design. Better parts, build, so far reliable for $319 MSRP. I was given mine from Xduoo for helping out testing different tubes and giving feedback to Xduoo on the Xduoo TA-20 I purchased through Hifigo.com. That was a pleasant surprise as they never mentioned and I never asked for anything for playing with my own TA-20. I thought they were helping me by reading and answering my many questions. That was very nice of Xduoo.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/xduoo-amplifiers.682282/post-16731414
> 
> Well, yeah, I have a Topping A90 and FiiO M15, and the A90 is more SS sounding, with the M15 coming in between the A90 and TA-20 (a Hybrid Tube/SS headphone amp), and then there is the TA-26 with full on floppy warm tubes giving the full tubey effect, on up through the Sylvania Chrome Top Tall Boy 6SN7GTA jumping again with the 5692 - progressively focusing and tightening up the sound.  There is a real sense of clarity that begins to come out of the TA-26 with the 5692 compared to the VT-231's.
> ...


Seems the TA-26 is a good contender for the DV while being able to drive the Ananda which sounds awful on the DV. 
Thanks for the insight 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

hmscott said:


> He is one of the more overpriced sellers I've seen before on eBay, he has a nice "GE" relabeled as RCA 5692 listed for $500!, and some "nosebleed" priced Soviet 6SN7's for $1250, so perhaps from someone else those $4450 33s30b tubes might go for a lot less... or they might be well priced due to their rarity - and I am missing something about the specialness of the other "overpriced" tubes?


I believe with the Rubel deteriorating value, Soviet tubes including Melz should be on the cheap if we are able to wire any money to Russia currently or if @Paladin79 left any in the first place 😃😃


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 9, 2022)

HTSkywalker said:


> I believe with the Rubel deteriorating value, Soviet tubes including Melz should be on the cheap if we are able to wire any money to Russia currently or if @Paladin79 left any in the first place 😃😃


…even if a wire transfer to an enterprise in Russia were 100% secured, such a wire for _electronic_ goods from Russia might nowadays be sanctioned…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …even if a wire transfer to an enterprise in Russia were 100% secured, such a wire for _electronic_ goods from Russia might nowadays be sanctioned…


True.  But the gangsters sellers @Paladin79 deals with probably don't use, um, _traditional _fund exchange methods anyway. 🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> True.  But the gangsters sellers @Paladin79 deals with probably don't use, um, _traditional _fund exchange methods anyway. 🤣


…the old ‘Marlboros-For-Melz’ system…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …the old ‘Marlboros-For-Melz’ system…


That and MelzCoin.  I heard FotonCoin flopped due to underfunding.  😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> True.  But the gangsters sellers @Paladin79 deals with probably don't use, um, _traditional _fund exchange methods anyway. 🤣


Mostly paid by rendered "services" 🤐🤐


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …the old ‘Marlboros-For-Melz’ system…


Or Levi's jeans for Melz 😁😁


----------



## TLO

hmscott said:


> Well, the measurements sure are good, 2600 uMhos is "as new", and both have measurements right up there:
> 
> I think those are very nice
> 
> ...


Yeah right, a very good seller, totempole_999. Did you even read his feedback rating? Yes, I am the one who bought a pair of Tung-Sol 6C8G from him and guess what, one of them has multi pins shorted. Long story short, after sending him 4 messages in a duration of about 2 weeks for a resolution, I gave up, left him a long detailed negative feedback and moved on....and you know what...I got a reply immediately within 24 hours offering to pay for return shipping and exchange if I would to remove the negative feedback...LOL. Yeah, I guess that is how you get their attention. To end this story, go to his feedback page and you will miraculously see two positive feedback, on the purchase of Tung-Sol 6C8G from other buyers, after my negative comment while the rest are listed as private listing. How convincing...


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,

I have also bought from Totempole the Nec 6SN7 through his idic shop not Ebay.
I can't say anything bad about it.
The shipment came with UPS, and within a week arrived undamaged.
I received the Nec with a measurement data sheet for each tube.
The only thing I noticed is that one tube is a bit louder than the other which can be irritating when mounted on the right side, so I changed it and everything was fine.
The second thing is that they both need a good 30 minutes until they are at temperature, including after 15 minutes of warming up, it occasionally crackles but it is minimal.
But this varies from tube to tube and can happen.
Worse would be a total failure.
I found it a pity that he hardly ever answers emails.

By the way, the Nec doesn't run badly at all.
I have noticed that it reacts a bit badly to the capacitors.
On the Euforia with the pure Vcap TFTF conversion on the 6SN7 socket and Mundorf capacitors on the 6as7G socket I didn't like it so much.
When I converted the 6AS7G to Vcap odam and 
I tried it again with the Mullard 6080 and I have to say that the combination is quite good.

The Nec plays quite well in the instrument area but the rest is still a bit reticent, but with good capacitors it becomes a firework.
The question is which capacitors fall into the grid that the Nec reveals everything well.


----------



## JTbbb

HTSkywalker said:


> Or Levi's jeans for Melz 😁😁


MacDonald’s for Melz? 😀😀


----------



## Paladin79

Hey I got all the pre-invasion Melz I could lay my hands on, you have to time these things. I flat told my friend I was doing this before sanctions hit. Now he is out of the business for a while and may not be back.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Hey I got all the pre-invasion Melz I could lay my hands on, you have to time these things. I flat told my friend I was doing this before sanctions hit. Now he is out of the business for a while and may not be back.


Never doubted your hoarding skills 😃😃


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Never doubted your hoarding skills 😃😃


LOL!  Yeah, he's probably out of business because @Paladin79 bought every last tube he had.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yeah, he's probably out of business because @Paladin79 bought every last tube he had.


I may have.  I will work on plausible deniability later.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I may have.  I will work on plausible deniability later.


Blame it on @HTSkywalker .  That's what I do.


----------



## Galapac (Mar 10, 2022)

hmscott said:


> I haven't checked the specs for the Chinese CV181 variants to see if they are closer in specification to the 6SN7 or if they match the original Mullard ECC32/CV181 high current requirements, so perhaps some additional research might be a good idea?



I was told the Chinese version of CV-181 has nothing to do with the English version CV-181, which makes it confusing.
The Chinese version is a drop in replacement for 6SN7, in fact I have a few of them with no issues, in place of 6SN7.


----------



## TLO

Galapac said:


> I was told the Chinese version of CV-181 has nothing to do with the English version CV-181, which makes it confusing.
> The Chinese version is a drop in replacement for 6SN7, in fact I have a few of them with no issues, in place of 6SN7.


You are right on. There is no another CV-181, there is only one and that is Mullard CV181 / ECC32 made in Blackburn, UK. The Chinese manufacturer just "borrowed" the tube designation for their tubes...like WE6SN7, just to emphasize how good their tubes sound. Ironically, WE never made 6SN7 tubes...LOL.


----------



## hmscott

Galapac said:


> I was told the Chinese version of CV-181 has nothing to do with the English version CV-181, which makes it confusing.
> The Chinese version is a drop in replacement for 6SN7, in fact I have a few of them with no issues, in place of 6SN7.


Do you think those Chinese CV-181 tubes are no more than "dressed up" 6SN7's?  No specification differences?

I've not noticed much/any difference in audio characteristics between my 3+1 6SN7GT VT-231's, but the 6SN7GTA does have better Bass Slam.

Is there any audible difference between the Chinese CV181 vs Chinese 6SN7's you have A/B'd?


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> You are right on. There is no another CV-181, there is only one and that is Mullard CV181 / ECC32 made in Blackburn, UK. The Chinese manufacturer just "borrowed" the tube designation for their tubes...like WE6SN7, just to emphasize how good their tubes sound. Ironically, WE never made 6SN7 tubes...LOL.


I do believe there is a Russian version out there of the Mullard CV181, which will say Made in England! Allegedly you can spot them because they have a black plasticky base and the dome is wider up top. Also the top mica is not crinkley, for want of a better word. There may be other differences, like the getters, but I am not sure about this. 
The British ones tend to have a brown base, but I do believe that the earlier British Mullard CV181’s had black bases, but were not plastic.


----------



## paradoxper

Any clarification on #76 type with 6SN7? I can't seem to find heater current specs before I play.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 12, 2022)

I've asked Xduoo support if their TA-26 will support the increase to .950mA Heater Curent  over the 6SN7 .600mA.  Hopefully I can try one in the TA-26 

I also sent Xduoo this Mullard Specification Sheet and ECC32 description I found online, in case they hadn't heard of the original ECC32/CV181:
https://mullard.org/collections/audio-valve-ecc32-cv181-cv1988-13d2-b65-6sn7gt-twin-triode







I also found this earlier response about CV181's which helped provide some context, Thank you @Ripper2860!!


Ripper2860 said:


> CV181s are all the same electrical specifications.  Real CV181s are .96 heater current draw or they are either defective or not a CV181.  Now where it gets confusing is with the folks at PSvane and Shu-guang -- they went and threw a monkey-wrench into the works by marketing a line of "CV181" tubes that are not CV181s .  Their CV-181 series tubes are NOT CV-181s at all, but are actually 6SN7s with .6 heater current draw.  Why their marketing department decided to do that is beyond me.  Even Grant HiFi had to put out a disclaimer that the PSvane CV181s they sell are NOT CV181s but are actually 6SN7 tubes, due to concerns with heater current draw specs being different between the two.
> Hope this helps.





paradoxper said:


> Any clarification on #76 type with 6SN7? I can't seem to find heater current specs before I play.


Here's the specifications sheet PDF



paradoxper said:


> Ok. It drives me crazy to not know origins. I'll run the TII and then pick up at least the SE. I think I'll try the Full Music as well just to complete the obscurity.
> 
> I hope they fit. LOL


@Galapac
I found this thread with interesting comments on the various labeled CV-181's from China 

Shuguang Black Treasure CV181-Z
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/shuguang-black-treasure-cv181-z

I found this comment in that thread interesting if true:

"Remember, Sophia does not manufacture tubes they are a re-seller/re-brander of Chinese tubes with "supposedly" higher screening and tolerances.  Grant Fidelity Audio provides a similar service but with a bit more transparency.  Yes, the TJ Full Music and Sophia are the same tube."


----------



## tafens

paradoxper said:


> I am crazy though. I haven't done enough of my homework to conclude anything meaningful. My guts says they were briefly manufactured and somewhere caught a inflated supply/demand curve. I'd like to read a comparison with some known quantity beforehand.


As far as I could find out looking around in Swedish forums and veteran’s pages, it seems to have been manufactured from the late 40’s until the late 50’s. And that (also as far as I could find out) encompasses the entire time span of manufacturing of that tube, ever, and the production volumes probably weren’t that high, either. No wonder they’re rare..


----------



## TLO (Mar 10, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> I do believe there is a Russian version out there of the Mullard CV181, which will say Made in England! Allegedly you can spot them because they have a black plasticky base and the dome is wider up top. Also the top mica is not crinkley, for want of a better word. There may be other differences, like the getters, but I am not sure about this.
> The British ones tend to have a brown base, but I do believe that the earlier British Mullard CV181’s had black bases, but were not plastic.


I have read ppl commented on that Russian version too. Nevertheless, I dont think there is ever a Russian made ECC32, just my opinion. I have multiple pairs of ECC31, made before ECC32, and 1 pair of ECC34, made after ECC32. I have noticed that earlier ECC series have that transparent rectangular spacer and later version has the round spiked upper mica shown below.







If you happened to see a "Russian" version of ECC32, please let me know. I am just thinking is it possible they are faked using Chinese "CV-181" in the first place.

P.S. oh yeah, and dont forget on the getter....from early pan getter to D getter, then to rectangular getter.


----------



## Isaacc7

I had an expensive night last night. Wish I could blame alcohol or other drugs but oh well... Purchased a pair of Mullard 12sn7 tubes. Thinking about it in the cold light of day, since they weren't labeled B36 I worry that I might have bought some Russian tubes. Here's the finished item. I didn't pay the price listed, the seller offered me a lower price so I took it. Hope I haven't been burned Sigh. https://www.ebay.com/itm/115272410946?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648

I also bought a pair of GEC CV1102 tubes. Reading about them people say they are similar to a 6f8g. They are the same pin out right? I already have adapters for 6f8g to 6sn7. Anyway, I know they are not actually 6f8g/6sn7 exact replacements. I won't be able to use them in my preamp but I think they are within the parameters to use in my amp. Anyone have any experience with them?


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> I have read ppl commented on that Russian version too. Nevertheless, I dont think there is ever a Russian made ECC32, just my opinion. I have multiple pairs of ECC31, made before ECC32, and 1 pair of ECC34, made after ECC32. I have noticed that earlier ECC series have that transparent rectangular spacer and later version has the round spiked upper mica shown below.
> 
> 
> If you happened to see a "Russian" version of ECC32, please let me know. I am just thinking is it possible they are faked using Chinese "CV-181" in the first place.
> ...


You may well be correct. Like yourself I am going by what I have read on forums etc. But on a very personal note I have only purchased tubes like this one.


----------



## Isaacc7

Did any of the European manufacturers make 12j5 tubes?


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> You may well be correct. Like yourself I am going by what I have read on forums etc. But on a very personal note I have only purchased tubes like this one.


Beautiful!!!


----------



## Deleeh

I can't say anything against Grant Fidelity.
Except that they have great tubes, but unfortunately a bit limited in terms of range.
I would have liked to see a bit more.

But otherwise I have to say you're in good hands there.
I bought my 2 Linlai pairs there - the best.
In principle, they also sell for the manufacturer, but with tighter dimensions in order to deliver solid quality.
Occasionally there is a commissioned production that is also limited.

I would buy the 6SN7 from Sophia when it comes back, but I would keep my distance from the rest.
Sophia also manufactures according to her own opinion, which is not necessarily bad.

But at the moment I think we probably won't see that because of the war.
I don't know about you, but in Germany we pay 2.30€ per litre for diesel and petrol.
That will have an effect on the rest like food etc....
If you can still buy such things, then such tubes belong more in the luxury class, if they still exist.
We can be glad that the Nos market still has halfway good stuff.


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> I had an expensive night last night. Wish I could blame alcohol or other drugs but oh well... Purchased a pair of Mullard 12sn7 tubes. Thinking about it in the cold light of day, since they weren't labeled B36 I worry that I might have bought some Russian tubes. Here's the finished item. I didn't pay the price listed, the seller offered me a lower price so I took it. Hope I haven't been burned Sigh. https://www.ebay.com/itm/115272410946?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648
> 
> I also bought a pair of GEC CV1102 tubes. Reading about them people say they are similar to a 6f8g. They are the same pin out right? I already have adapters for 6f8g to 6sn7. Anyway, I know they are not actually 6f8g/6sn7 exact replacements. I won't be able to use them in my preamp but I think they are within the parameters to use in my amp. Anyone have any experience with them?


Careful with the CV1102. They draw 1.27A of heater current and 7A on each plate!!! Just to give you an idea how high that is...
6SN7GT - 0.6A heater / 9.0A plate
ECC32 - 0.95 heater / 6.0A plate


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Careful with the CV1102. They draw 1.27A of heater current and 7A on each plate!!! Just to give you an idea how high that is...
> 6SN7GT - 0.6A heater / 9.0A plate
> ECC32 - 0.95 heater / 6.0A plate


My amp can use 6bx7 tubes which I think draw even more amps so  Should be fine right?


----------



## TLO

Deleeh said:


> I can't say anything against Grant Fidelity.
> Except that they have great tubes, but unfortunately a bit limited in terms of range.
> I would have liked to see a bit more.
> 
> ...


In case you still didnt know, Sophia Electric doesnt make tubes. They dont invest in a tube manufacturing factory, how are they going to make tubes? All of the tubes they sold are rebranded.


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> My amp can use 6bx7 tubes which I think draw even more amps so  Should be fine right?


Yes, in that case, you should be alright. Just pay close attention to the temperature of the transformer when rolling a new tube type.


----------



## cddc

TLO said:


> Careful with the CV1102. They draw 1.27A of heater current and 7A on each plate!!! Just to give you an idea how high that is...
> 6SN7GT - 0.6A heater / 9.0A plate
> ECC32 - 0.95 heater / 6.0A plate



CV1102 has nothing to do with 6SN7 / 6F8G family tubes!

6SN7 / 6F8G has an amplification factor of 20 while CV1102 only has 12.

Also, their parameters are completely different, as you've pointed out.


----------



## TLO

cddc said:


> CV1102 has nothing to do with 6SN7 / 6F8G family tubes!
> 
> 6SN7 / 6F8G has an amplification factor of 20 while CV1102 only has 12.
> 
> Also, their parameters are completely different, as you've pointed out.


Of course they are totally different tubes as you have said but someone likes to explore tube rolling and I cant stop him becos I love tube rolling too...LOL


----------



## Isaacc7

cddc said:


> CV1102 has nothing to do with 6SN7 / 6F8G family tubes!
> 
> 6SN7 / 6F8G has an amplification factor of 20 while CV1102 only has 12.
> 
> Also, their parameters are completely different, as you've pointed out.


My amplifier can use 6sn7,6sl7, and 6bx7. Those differ quite a bit too but all sound good in this amp. I'm assuming these will be another flavor.


----------



## cddc

TLO said:


> Yeah right, a very good seller, totempole_999. Did you even read his feedback rating? Yes, I am the one who bought a pair of Tung-Sol 6C8G from him and guess what, one of them has multi pins shorted. Long story short, after sending him 4 messages in a duration of about 2 weeks for a resolution, I gave up, left him a long detailed negative feedback and moved on....and you know what...I got a reply immediately within 24 hours offering to pay for return shipping and exchange if I would to remove the negative feedback...LOL. Yeah, I guess that is how you get their attention. To end this story, go to his feedback page and you will miraculously see two positive feedback, on the purchase of Tung-Sol 6C8G from other buyers, after my negative comment while the rest are listed as private listing. How convincing...




Never bought a tube from this totempole_999 in India.

I immediately put him on my blacklist as soon as I noticed him counterfeiting some "Bad Boys" by intentionally painting the bases of some GTB tubes with yellow paint (in order to cover up the GTB and brand name printed on the bases). I knew this is a dishonest seller already...LOL


----------



## TLO

cddc said:


> Never bought a tube from this totempole_999 in India.
> 
> I immediately put him on my blacklist as soon as I noticed him counterfeiting some "Bad Boys" by intentionally painting the bases of some GTB tubes with yellow paint (in order to cover up the GTB and brand name printed on the bases). I knew this is a dishonest seller already...LOL


To be fair, I was taking a risk when I made that purchase from him. My instinct always tells me not to buy from countries like India, China (except new production from reputable sellers), Vietnam, Italy, etc...they are considered high risk, IMO.


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Careful with the CV1102. They draw 1.27A of heater current and 7*m*A on each plate!!! Just to give you an idea how high that is...
> 6SN7GT - 0.6A heater / 9.0*m*A plate
> ECC32 - 0.95 heater / 6.0*m*A plate


Just a couple edits for clarity.  The 1.27A of heater current is the big deal though to be sure.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Never bought a tube from this totempole_999 in India.
> 
> I immediately put him on my blacklist as soon as I noticed him counterfeiting some "Bad Boys" by intentionally painting the bases of some GTB tubes with yellow paint (in order to cover up the GTB and brand name printed on the bases). I knew this is a dishonest seller already...LOL


His prices had me hitting the 'next' button.  $100 for an RCA 6AS7G?  LOL.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> Just a couple edits for clarity.  The 1.27A of heater current is the big deal though to be sure.


Thanks for the correction.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> His prices had me hitting the 'next' button.  $100 for an RCA 6AS7G?  LOL.


I would sell you a half dozen for $99 each and throw in a Foton with each.🤪


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I would sell you a half dozen for $99 each and throw in a Foton with each.🤪


Throw me in a Melz (1578 to be specific) with each and you have a deal.  🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> Just a couple edits for clarity.  The 1.27A of heater current is the big deal though to be sure.


Glad you made those corrections. I thought 6 amps on the plates was a bit high but didn’t know enough to feel confident to correct lol.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Throw me in a Melz (1578 to be specific) with each and you have a deal.  🤣


Now there’s a bad idea.😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Blame it on @HTSkywalker .  That's what I do.


Imagine the grin on @Paladin79 face looking at his Melz treasure chest salvaged from pre-world War III Russia 😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker (Mar 10, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> I would sell you a half dozen for $99 each and throw in a Foton with each.🤪


Sweeten the deal with 1578 Melz flavor and count me in 😃😃
"Wrote exactly what @bcowen wrote before even reading his comments" LOL


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 10, 2022)

TLO said:


> To be fair, I was taking a risk when I made that purchase from him. My instinct always tells me not to buy from countries like India, China (except new production from reputable sellers), Vietnam, Italy, etc...they are considered high risk, IMO.


Pulse Tube Store in India is a decidedly great exception. Sanjiv M., the proprietor, is a tube lover and a stand-up fellow. A number of us (damn lunatics…) who post in the Schiit Mjolnir 2 threads have bought adapters and Brimar / Footscray tubes from PTS to immense satisfaction. [PTS makes the adapters offered by Tubemonger.]


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Blame it on @HTSkywalker .  That's what I do.


…did you exhaust your @Ripper2860 credits?…


----------



## TLO

jonathan c said:


> Pulse Tube Store in India is a decidedly great exception. Sanjiv M., the proprietor, is a tube lover and a stand-up fellow. A number of us (damn lunatics…) who post in the Schiit Mjolnir 2 threads have bought adapters and Brimar / Footscray tubes from PTS to immense satisfaction. [PTS makes the adapters offered by Tubemonger.]


Oh yes, I remember this PTS now, have bought 3 pcs of their socket saver last year. Though not cheap, but quality is top-notch.


----------



## mayurs

I am really liking these Tungsols that I recently bought on a whim. Maybe I will get some more coz I really like them.


----------



## JTbbb

mayurs said:


> I am really liking these Tungsols that I recently bought on a whim. Maybe I will get some more coz I really like them.


They normally are not easy to find.


----------



## Renexx

JTbbb said:


> They normally are not easy to find.


Especially not for a fair price 😁


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …did you exhaust your @Ripper2860 credits?…


I've never seen @Ripper2860 and 'credits' used in the same sentence before.  I must still be asleep.  😂


----------



## TLO

Renexx said:


> Especially not for a fair price 😁


Has anyone compared the TS 6F8G BGRP and TS 6C8G BGRP to TS 6SN7GT BGRP? Will like to hear your comment if you do.


----------



## Wes S (Mar 11, 2022)

Shamless plug. . . if anyone is looking for a great pair of 6SN7 tubes, I have a very nice NOS testing pair of Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boys (the real deal with 3 hole black plates and made in 52') listed and priced to sell.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Pulse Tube Store in India is a decidedly great exception. Sanjiv M., the proprietor, is a tube lover and a stand-up fellow. A number of us (damn lunatics…) who post in the Schiit Mjolnir 2 threads have bought adapters and Brimar / Footscray tubes from PTS to immense satisfaction. [PTS makes the adapters offered by Tubemonger.]


Second that. I've only bought twice from Pulse, but both times the tubes were exactly as I expected and tested at NOS levels or better. Their base conversion for flying lead tubes is top notch, and done so well you'd think they were built that way at the original factory.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> Shamless plug. . . if anyone is looking for a great pair of 6SN7 tubes, I have a very nice NOS testing pair of Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boys (the real deal with 3 hole black plates and made in 52') listed and priced to sell.


You are _selling_ tubes?    Wes, are you OK?  Do we need to send medical assistance?  We care about you, man.


----------



## Wes S (Mar 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> You are _selling_ tubes?   Wes, are you OK?  Do we need to send medical assistance?  We care about you, man.


LOL!  I hear ya bro, and rest assured I am just making some room for more 12BH7's, seeing as that's where the magic is for me these days.  My storage space is small, and I can only have so many tubes at one time.


----------



## TLO

Wes S said:


> LOL!  I hear ya bro, and rest assured I am just making some room for more 12BH7's, seeing as that's where the magic is for me these days.  My storage space is small, and I can only have so many tubes at one time.


Keep them...I bet some years down the road, you are going to regret it...
There is no such thing as having too many tubes...LOL


----------



## Wes S (Mar 11, 2022)

TLO said:


> Keep them...I bet some years down the road, you are going to regret it...
> There is no such thing as having too many tubes...LOL


That's a good point (been there done that and the regret is still there), and if I did not have another 2 pairs stashed away I would for sure keep them.


----------



## TLO

Wes S said:


> That's a good point (been there done that and the regret is still there), and if I did not have another 2 pairs stashed away I would for sure keep them.


I am even worse, I have like 2 or even up to 6 pairs of the tubes I like...LOL


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Sweeten the deal with 1578 Melz flavor and count me in 😃😃
> "Wrote exactly what @bcowen wrote before even reading his comments" LOL


Dream on, it may be years before I can buy more Melz.😜


----------



## Wes S

@TLO 6 pairs is quite a lot, and I am right there with ya and have even taken it a bit further.   As for the tubes I am currently using, I have 8 pairs of one specific tube and over a dozen singles of another.  I am so OCD/crazy, that I can't even really enjoy a tube until I have a least one backup and can't really rest until I have at least 2 backups.  Tube addiction is a real thing and I have gone way down the rabbit hole at this point. Hence the needing to make room for more, by selling a few.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> @TLO 6 pairs is quite a lot, and I am right there with ya and have even taken it a bit further.   As for the tubes I am currently using, I have 8 pairs of one specific tube and over a dozen singles of another.  I am so OCD/crazy, that I can't even really enjoy a tube until I have a least one backup and can't really rest until I have at least 2 backups.  Tube addiction is a real thing and I have gone way down the rabbit hole at this point. Hence the needing to make room for more, by selling a few.


Just get a bigger container.  If you can't beat OCD, join it.  😂😂


----------



## Paladin79

Wes S said:


> Shamless plug. . . if anyone is looking for a great pair of 6SN7 tubes, I have a very nice NOS testing pair of Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boys (the real deal with 3 hole black plates and made in 52') listed and priced to sell.


been there, done that.


----------



## TLO (Mar 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Just get a bigger container.  If you can't beat OCD, join it.  😂😂



I totally agree with @bcowen , we must be honest with ourselves. Dont fight it, just let nature takes its course...LOL
















I have sold at least 10 pairs of 6SN7 and 6SL7 since last year.


----------



## Tom-s

I admire such organized boxes! I also have a system. … …


----------



## Ranger Ron

Tom-s said:


> I admire such organized boxes! I also have a system. … …


This might be the greatest picture I’ve seen in a long time. So good!


----------



## TLO

Tom-s said:


> I admire such organized boxes! I also have a system. … …


This must be a picture puzzle game...LOL
I see Cossor 6SN7GT, Brimar 6SN7GT, RCA 5692, Mullard ECC35/CV569, RT 6SN7WGT, RCA 6SN7GT (gray glass & clear glass), SYL 6SN7WGT, KEN RAD 6SN7GT (clear glass), TS 6SN7GT mouse ear, TS 12SL7GT, STC 6SN7GT/CV1988, CBS 6SN7GT, NU 6SN7GT?...is that a SYL 6SN7W (short glass) at the right bottom?


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> This must be a picture puzzle game...LOL
> I see Cossor 6SN7GT, Brimar 6SN7GT, RCA 5692, Mullard ECC35/CV569, RT 6SN7WGT, RCA 6SN7GT (gray glass & clear glass), SYL 6SN7WGT, KEN RAD 6SN7GT (clear glass), TS 6SN7GT mouse ear, TS 12SL7GT, STC 6SN7GT/CV1988, CBS 6SN7GT, NU 6SN7GT?...is that a SYL 6SN7W (short glass) at the right bottom?


LOL!  The only thing I don't see in there is Waldo.  Where *is* Waldo?


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> I totally agree with @bcowen , we must be honest with ourselves. Dont fight it, just let nature takes its course...LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice stash!!!


----------



## bcowen

Tom-s said:


> I admire such organized boxes! I also have a system. … …


Tube boxes are sooooo 1990's.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> LOL!  The only thing I don't see in there is Waldo.  Where *is* Waldo?


Where are the ECC32 n B65?


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Where are the ECC32 n B65?


Waldo must have them.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> Waldo must have them.


He keeps them in a safe...


----------



## Tom-s (Mar 11, 2022)

Both are lost 😞


----------



## mayurs (Mar 11, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> They normally are not easy to find.


Are these what people call the TS BGRP? But I see that these are different to the TS VT231 that have oval micas and have a horizontal support at the top whereas these are completely round micas and and without any horizontal support.


----------



## Ranger Ron

mayurs said:


> Are these what people call the TS BGRP? But I see that these are different to the TS VT231 that have oval micas and have a horizontal support at the top whereas these are completely round micas and and without any horizontal support.


Round micas I believe are the first examples. I’ve listened to 6sn7,6f8g and 6c8g versions, the only significant difference I noticed was more gain from the 6c8g.


----------



## Renexx (Mar 11, 2022)

mayurs said:


> Are these what people call the TS BGRP? But I see that these are different to the TS VT231 that have oval micas and have a horizontal support at the top whereas these are completely round micas and and without any horizontal support.


These is the successor construction of the BGRP  in 1945 and has only been produced several months. So round mica is actually more rare than oval mica. 
Sound is identical both have round plates. I have both types and can't hear a difference.


----------



## TLO

Ranger Ron said:


> Round micas I believe are the first examples. I’ve listened to 6sn7,6f8g and 6c8g versions, the only significant difference I noticed was more gain from the 6c8g.


So they all have the same TS sound signature?


----------



## JTbbb

mayurs said:


> Are these what people call the TS BGRP? But I see that these are different to the TS VT231 that have oval micas and have a horizontal support at the top whereas these are completely round micas and and without any horizontal support.


Your tubes are similar to these, except these have the oval top mica.



These tubes are the VT231, again with the oval mica. They seem to be more sought after.



Now I can honestly say that I cannot discern any difference between these pairs of tubes. And although I don’t own a pair of the round mica tubes, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that they sound very similar, or indeed the same. Maybe others here have some experience with the oval and round mica versions?


----------



## bcowen

mayurs said:


> Are these what people call the TS BGRP? But I see that these are different to the TS VT231 that have oval micas and have a horizontal support at the top whereas these are completely round micas and and without any horizontal support.


The "BGRP" designation refers to the shape of the plates, not the micas (*B*lack *G*lass *R*ound *P*late).


----------



## Renexx

TLO said:


> So they all have the same TS sound signature?


Yes, I also have a tungsol flat plate, square mica 6f8g which might be a little bit more neutral sounding. But they are very close in sound.


----------



## TLO

Renexx said:


> Yes, I also have a tungsol flat plate, square mica 6f8g which might be a little bit more neutral sounding. But they are very close in sound.


From my understanding, TS BGRP version of 6SN7, 6F8G and 6C8G have the same sound signature, but TS flat plate, clear glass 6F8G has different sound.


----------



## Renexx (Mar 11, 2022)

TLO said:


> From my understanding, TS BGRP version of 6SN7, 6F8G and 6C8G have the same sound signature, but TS flat plate, clear glass 6F8G has different sound.


6sn7 and 6f8g have exactly the same sound if construction is the same. It's basically  the same tube with different pin outs.

I'm not sure if a 6sn7 successor to my Tungsol flat plates, square mica 6f8g exists.

National Union 6f8g with round plates is unique and doesn't have a 6sn7 successor.


----------



## Galapac (Mar 11, 2022)

Tom-s said:


> I admire such organized boxes! I also have a system. … …


This is great! Why make it easier for your descendants to sell your hoard when you pass on???  

Also makes a great puzzle for audiophiles...


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  The only thing I don't see in there is Waldo.  Where *is* Waldo?


In Penn_sylvania….🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣_


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> This is great! Why make it easier for your descendants to sell your hoard when you pass on???
> 
> *Also makes a great puzzle for audiophiles...*


LOL!  And after we've figured out all that we can see, @Tom-s needs to turn the box upside down and shake it furiously to start a new puzzle.  🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> In Penn_sylvania….🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣_


🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## OctavianH

I like Tom, I like his tubes, I want them. Anyway I am close to his style.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> I like Tom, I like his tubes, I want them. Anyway I am close to his style.


Oh no.  This is apparently contagious.


----------



## OctavianH

bcowen said:


> Oh no.  This is apparently contagious.


This is a perfectly audiophile behaviour. You just put them like this for blind test.


----------



## bcowen

OctavianH said:


> This is a perfectly audiophile behaviour. You just put them like this for blind test.


I wish you'd told me that before, because now I can't un-see it.  😂😂


----------



## hmscott (Mar 12, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Dream on, it may be years before I can buy more Melz.😜


Happy news, Melz are still available! - from an eBay seller still in Ukraine!

NOS MELZ 6n8s tube metal base hole 6SN7gt vt231 ecc33 same date
https://www.ebay.com/itm/323344320267

The listing image - right tube -  that caught my eye - wide mica ears - IDK if this is a 1578 configuation - what other features should I look for?

Is the other tube of interest?


How would you classify that tube?  If not a Melz 1578, is it a good tube to try?

Roman has other listings too...and he is very friendly and helpful.  He took my request and will look for some more "with wide mica ears":

"Hello Scott, hello my friend!
Thank you, I am ok and I am in safety if it can be possible being in Ukraine at pressent
How are you?
No problem let me know if you will be ready to buy 6n8s metal base tube, I have many of them and there must be with wide mica ears such you would like. Despite the war international shipping is avaible in my location.
I thank you and all ordinary US citizens for supporting the Ukrainian people in the fight against the Putin regime.
Слава УкраЇні! Перемога буде нашою! [Glory to Ukraine! The victory will be ours!]"

*Update: I told him I shared his store online, his reply : "Oh, thank you Scott! I have tons of different audio and vintage stuff. Time to work*


----------



## Ranger Ron

Renexx said:


> 6sn7 and 6f8g have exactly the same sound if construction is the same. It's basically  the same tube with different pin outs.
> 
> I'm not sure if a 6sn7 successor to my Tungsol flat plates, square mica 6f8g exists.
> 
> National Union 6f8g with round plates is unique and doesn't have a 6sn7 successor.


Actually some Black glass NU 6sn7’s have the same oval plates. As rare as hens teeth but they exist.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  And after we've figured out all that we can see, @Tom-s needs to turn the box upside down and shake it furiously to start a new puzzle.  🤣


….the GEs will sink to the bottom, like mud, after a bit…😜


----------



## Renexx (Mar 11, 2022)

Ranger Ron said:


> Actually some Black glass NU 6sn7’s have the same oval plates. As rare as hens teeth but they exist.


I have national Union black glass 6sn7 and grey glass 6sn7 and they sound quite different to NU 6f8g.

Will try to take a look at the internals later. Might be difficult with the coated glass.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Renexx said:


> I have national Union black glass 6sn7 and grey glass 6sn7 and they sound different to NU 6f8g.
> 
> Will try to take a look at the internals later. Might be difficult with the coated glass.


Indeed they all sound different. My black glass round plate NU 6SN7 is unfortunately unlistenable so I can’t comment on its sound.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 11, 2022)

I always thought BGRP stood for...

*B*oy's *G*ot *R*eal *P*roblems.  🤔


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Happy news, Melz are still available! - from an eBay seller still in Ukraine!
> 
> NOS MELZ 6n8s tube metal base hole 6SN7gt vt231 ecc33 same date
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/323344320267
> ...


The one on the right is a 1578. The one on the left isn't.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I always thought BGRP stood for...
> 
> Boy's Got Real Problems.  🤔


*B*ad *G*uess, *R*ichard *P*.


----------



## Ripper2860

Or was it *B*ill's *G*ot a *R*otten *P*ersonality.  😒


----------



## hmscott (Mar 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> The one on the right is a 1578. The one on the left isn't.


Thank you 

I was hoping it was, I'll update when / if he finds some more...


----------



## Renexx

bcowen said:


> The one on the right is a 1578. The one on the left isn't.



More important, do they sound different because of different mica and spacer construction?


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> More important, do they sound different because of different mica and spacer construction?


Can't tell you why they sound different, just that they do.  The regular (6N8S) Melz is quite a good sounding tube, but the 1578 is significantly better (at least to my ears).


----------



## Mr Trev

Locked and loaded! (not my pic sadly - https://theirontailor.blogspot.com/2015/06/bandoleer.html)


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Locked and loaded!* (not my pic *sadly* -* https://theirontailor.blogspot.com/2015/06/bandoleer.html)


I hope not.  Pretty crappy tubes in there.  🤣🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

Renexx said:


> Especially not for a fair price 😁


One of the reasons I had my preamp (and soon my power amp) wired for 12v tubes was so I could use 12sn7 tubes. I now have 3 sets of the Tungsol round plate 12sn7. They really are nice and live up to their reputation. As far as I can tell I got mine from 1/3 to 1/2 the going rate for the 6sn7


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I hope not.  Pretty crappy tubes in there.  🤣🤣


Have you had too much tequila? That is the irreplaceable ‘Zorro Zalytron’ belt 🤩:


----------



## Isaacc7

Took some pictures to show my… organization of tubes. Lol. Here’s the bulk of my usable tube collection. 




The big tub on the right is all output tubes. The box on top is full of adapters. Got some new KT66 in case they become unavailable later one. Also dumped a bunch of GE and Sylvania 12av5 tubes on the top section. Below them are all manner of el34, 6ar6, el38, 807, 6bg6, etc. The box in the middle is one of my 6sn7 and equivalent boxes. A bunch of Raytheon 6f8g on top. To the left is a box of 12sn7 and equivalent. There are a few 14n7 tubes with adapters sitting on top. I can also see a 6sl7 and a 12j5 box in there as well. I have been going through my tube stash separating useful (to me) tubes from ones that are useful to someone else. Here’s a smattering of some I’ve set aside next to my chair. 




Obviously there are some Sylvania 12av5 and a variety of 14af7 tubes there. The RCAs on the left are 14c5 and the tube on top of that is a Raytheon 12j5gt. There are a bunch of other 14c5 on the floor too. I actually have more that I’m getting rid of. 





Lots of boat anchor, odd voltages, and various and sundry tubes. All useful for audio but strictly for DIY. Over 480 tubes. This is how I know I’m not a hoarder, I’m actually going to get rid of these lol.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Have you had too much tequila? That is the irreplaceable ‘Zorro Zalytron’ belt 🤩:


There's no such thing as too much tequila.  But I might have.  😂


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Took some pictures to show my… organization of tubes. Lol. Here’s the bulk of my usable tube collection.
> 
> 
> The big tub on the right is all output tubes. The box on top is full of adapters. Got some new KT66 in case they become unavailable later one. Also dumped a bunch of GE and Sylvania 12av5 tubes on the top section. Below them are all manner of el34, 6ar6, el38, 807, 6bg6, etc. The box in the middle is one of my 6sn7 and equivalent boxes. A bunch of Raytheon 6f8g on top. To the left is a box of 12sn7 and equivalent. There are a few 14n7 tubes with adapters sitting on top. I can also see a 6sl7 and a 12j5 box in there as well. I have been going through my tube stash separating useful (to me) tubes from ones that are useful to someone else. Here’s a smattering of some I’ve set aside next to my chair.
> ...


Oh my.  Looks like we might need a _group_ intervention here.  😆


----------



## musicinmymind

bcowen said:


> The one on the right is a 1578. The one on the left isn't.



fortunately I have two Melz 1578 which I am very happy with, question is what would be life of these tubes. I use them on average of 3 hrs each day with Darkvoice.


----------



## TLO (Mar 12, 2022)

musicinmymind said:


> fortunately I have two Melz 1578 which I am very happy with, question is what would be life of these tubes. I use them on average of 3 hrs each day with Darkvoice.


If they are tested near or above 100% when you first bought them, you are probably looking at 6-8 years if you are only running them 3 hrs daily. If the amp has a well designed circuit, these signal or input tubes can last a really long time. Not taking into consideration of tubes dying prematurely though.


----------



## paradoxper

well, terrible news.










*Attention All EHX Tube Customers*

Yesterday, Russia imposed a ban on the export of some 200 goods in response to the sanctions imposed on it over the current conflict in Ukraine. We have confirmed that the ban applies to our seven brands of Russian tubes. Currently, the ban is set to remain in effect until the end of the calendar year.

Given this export ban, we will not be receiving any further tube inventory for these brands. A myriad of pressures — including continued strains on the supply chain, escalating internal expenses, mounting inflation, and an ever-evolving legal landscape (particularly in light of the Ukraine conflict) — have created a very fluid and ambiguous environment. Until we can properly assess the impact of these factors, we will not honor any new orders or ship any more Russian tubes on back order.

Rock & Roll,
Mike Matthews
Founder & President


----------



## Galapac

Good thing most of us have backups. That explains the recent price hikes on a lot of TUNG-SOL reissues and the like In the market.


----------



## cddc

I have no interest in new production tubes, be it made in Russia or China or former Czech & Slovakia states. So the stall of Electro-Harmonix has zero impact on me anyway.

From a politically correct viewpoint, it's good not to fund the Russian invasion to Ukraine.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 12, 2022)

Good news, I receved an answer back from Xduoo, to the question I placed through Hifigo.com a few pages back:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-16857775

I've received the answer back direct from Xduoo:

"Hi,
*No problem, the TA-26 maximum heater current is 4A*
Best Regards,*"*

The Xduoo TA-26 can handle the 950mA (over 6SN7 600 mA) current load, if I find an affordable Mullard ECC32/CV181 

But, 4A isn't enough to also support the 5A heater current requirement for the 6336/6528 in the TA-26:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/xduoo-amplifiers.682282/post-16860854

I also asked Xduoo about the 6BL7/6BX7 in the TA-26: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/xduoo-amplifiers.682282/post-16860953


----------



## paradoxper

I believe in the other 6SN7 thread these were reference but I am wondering if anyone in this thread compared the Shuguang WE6SN7. I have received the Treasure series and was lastly interested in this Shuguang before I stick hunting solely to 1578 60's which is going to be difficult. Ha.


----------



## Odin412

paradoxper said:


> well, terrible news.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe it's time to put my favorite tubes in a safety deposit box?


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> I believe in the other 6SN7 thread these were reference but I am wondering if anyone in this thread compared the Shuguang WE6SN7. I have received the Treasure series and was lastly interested in this Shuguang before I stick hunting solely to 1578 60's which is going to be difficult. Ha.


Can't help with the Shuguang's, sorry.  But don't shy away from the '50's 1578's if you can find them. I have a '56 playing right now that is superb, and I like it even more than the '63 I have.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 12, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> well, terrible news.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great news for Philips EGC & GE tube sellers…..manna from heaven for Bangybang, menifee, wege_high_tubes…..us 😳😒💸…..


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> Can't help with the Shuguang's, sorry.  But don't shy away from the '50's 1578's if you can find them. I have a '56 playing right now that is superb, and I like it even more than the '63 I have.


I have some later 50 and more 60's, they just seem easier to find. I will buy whichever are available. No 80's though.


----------



## Deleeh

I was also interested in the Shuang We6sn7 and enquired in Germany.
They answered that they will no longer deliver them because there were often failures.
Save yourself the trouble with the We 6SN7, it's only marketing in the first place.
Shunag makes great tubes, some are good and some are crap.

It is similar to Tj Full Music, great tubes but unreliable unfortunately.
Apart from that, Shuang labels a lot.
The standard 6SN7 that run under Tad or Brimar are from Shuang.

The story with Shuang,Ps vane is also quite controversial.
There, too, a lot of crap has been said that is not true.
Some of the Shuang people called themselves Ps Vane because Shuang was the government building where they produced.
And some of the employees went with them and some did not.
With Ps Vane something happened again and the team was formed again where one part is now called Linlai and the other part disappeared.
Linlai is now the better tube than Shuang and Ps Vane.
The Ps Vane and Shuang could be too sharp in the treble range, cold and sound a bit numb.
I didn't like the Ps Vane at all and found it a bit too analytical for my taste.

The Linlai is much better than the Ps Vane.


----------



## paradoxper

Deleeh said:


> I was also interested in the Shuang We6sn7 and enquired in Germany.
> They answered that they will no longer deliver them because there were often failures.
> Save yourself the trouble with the We 6SN7, it's only marketing in the first place.
> Shunag makes great tubes, some are good and some are crap.
> ...


Thanks for the insight. I'll demo the Treasures both TI and TII and play with the Sophia a little more and then move on. I feel complete with modern production.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 12, 2022)

JKDJedi said:


> So i've played with a NOS vs New Tong-Sol 6SN7GTB for some time and feel that the New outshines the NOS in width and just overall musicality, I'm in know of the high praise for NOS tubes as superior vs New tubes, I'd like to think maybe the NOS tube I have might be past it's prime? And don't feel bad if the NEW is just a better tube in comparison, anyone else feel the same?


How do you feel these days about NOS GTB's vs new reissue GTB's?...Beyond the blockade for new Russia products making it tough to find them 

Should I pick up some new Russia reissues before current stock sells out?, or is it better to pick up some NOS GTB's?

I just received an eBay offer on this Quad of 6SN7GTB's for $232.88, is that a good value for these @ $58.22/tube?:

SYLVANIA 6SN7GTB TUBE CHROME TOPPED FOIL SHORT BLACK BASE MATCHING QUAD
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334345768486

I only need 1 tube, so I'll probably ask if he has a single of these tubes...


Or, should I look for another make/year of a 6SN7GTB?

Does anyone else have an opinion on specific make/year 6SN7GTB's that I should look for?

Thank you!


----------



## TLO (Mar 12, 2022)

hmscott said:


> How do you feel these days about NOS GTB's vs new reissue GTB's?...Beyond the blockade for new Russia products making it tough to find them
> 
> Should I pick up some new Russia reissues before current stock sells out?, or is it better to pick up some NOS GTB's?
> 
> ...


Just my opinion...I always believe it is more advisable to buy vintage than reissue or new production in term of value. Vintage tubes will hold their value, not to mention mostly will even go up as time passes, not much for reissue or new production. They will even depreciate like other audio components if you dont use but keep them in storage. Let face it, after all, it is a kind of money you put into this hobby and how you manage it to minimize your losses, also able to enjoy it at the same time. Generally, most vintage tubes still sound better than reissue or new production. I will say enjoy those vintage tubes while they are still available as they wont last long forever. As many ppl have already noted, I myself can also see that the availability of most sought after tubes at Ebay have dropped dramatically for the past one year. Prices have even gone up from 20-100% for some tubes. Luckily for me, I have already rolled and accumulated enough tubes for the next 10-15 years but I did missed out a couple of tube makes I would like to experience before the prices shot up.

As for SYL 6SN7 GTB, if you can, try to get the early version of 6SN7 GTA. Opposite T-plate and not angled T-plate like in the GTB version. T-plate VT-231/6SN7GT in the 40's are still the best though. I find GTA or GTB are a bit dry for my taste but they are still quite good for their price.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 12, 2022)

I dont know what it is about vintage NOS tubes, but I've never really found new production tubes that compare to the better NOS tubes. Maybe there was a higher degree of skill or knowledge that simply has been lost over time, but NOS rules the roost for me.

Psvane has some pretty good tubes and I'll give them props as new issue goes.


----------



## TLO

Ripper2860 said:


> I dont know what it is about vintage NOS tubes, but I've never really found new production tubes that compare to the better NOS tubes. Maybe there was a higher degree of skill or knowledge that simply has been lost over time, but NOS rules the roost for me.
> 
> Psvane has some pretty good tubes and I'll give them props as new issue goes.


I would love to try some PSVANE in the future when I am really bored...lol
Btw, I have really good luck with their ACME 805. They not only sound really good but have crossed the 4000 hrs mark and still going strong and stable.


----------



## Galapac

There was definitely a skill that was lost when NOS passed its heyday as in anything in mass production/shared knowledge.
This was never passed on unfortunately as many were proprietary secrets.
Also, there may have been certain materials that were used that are banned now that were far superior.


----------



## TLO

Galapac said:


> There was definitely a skill that was lost when NOS passed its heyday as in anything in mass production/shared knowledge.
> This was never passed on unfortunately as many were proprietary secrets.
> Also, there may have been certain materials that were used that are banned now that were far superior.


Lead and mercury come to mind.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

TLO said:


> Just my opinion...I always believe it is more advisable to buy vintage than reissue or new production in term of value. Vintage tubes will hold their value, not to mention mostly will even go up as time passes, not much for reissue or new production. They will even depreciate like other audio components if you dont use but keep them in storage. Let face it, after all, it is a kind of money you put into this hobby and how you manage it to minimize your losses, also able to enjoy it at the same time. Generally, most vintage tubes still sound better than reissue or new production. I will say enjoy those vintage tubes while they are still available as they wont last long forever. As many ppl have already noted, I myself can also see that the availability of most sought after tubes at Ebay have dropped dramatically for the past one year. Prices have even gone up from 20-100% for some tubes. Luckily for me, I have already rolled and accumulated enough tubes for the next 10-15 years but I did missed out a couple of tube makes I would like to experience before the prices shot up.
> 
> As for SYL 6SN7 GTB, if you can, try to get the early version of 6SN7 GTA. Opposite T-plate and not angled T-plate like in the GTB version. T-plate VT-231/6SN7GT in the 40's are still the best though. I find GTA or GTB are a bit dry for my taste but they are still quite good for their price.


Thank you! - I have being enjoying my '40's VT-231's, and the Ken-Rad 1944 BLACK BEAUTY VT-231 in particular. 

KEN-RAD JAN CKR 6SN7 GT VT-231 1944 LEGENDARY BLACK BEAUTY CHROMED FOIL NIB MINT
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203211481973


----------



## TLO (Mar 12, 2022)

hmscott said:


> Thank you! - I have being enjoying my '40's VT-231's, and the Ken-Rad Black Glasss VT-231 in particular.


Since you have tasted the sound of SYL VT231, I would say dont waste your money on GTB. You are better off spending on some other better tubes like RCA VT-231/6SN7GT (grey or smoke glass), NU 6SN7GT, RCA/CBS 5692, TS VT-231/6SN7 (BGRP), Mullard ECC32, ECC33, ECC34...and if you wanted to go off track with adapters...Mullard ECC31, TS 6F8G / 6C8G (BGRP), Philips ECC40 (disc getter only - Eindhoven or Sittard factory), Philips E182CC, Raytheon 6CG7 (US made black plate), etc...


----------



## Mr Trev

TLO said:


> Lead and mercury come to mind.


Delicious, but deadly


----------



## TLO

hmscott said:


> Thank you! - I have being enjoying my '40's VT-231's, and the Ken-Rad BLACK BEAUTY VT-231 in particular.
> 
> KEN-RAD JAN CKR 6SN7 GT VT-231 1944 LEGENDARY BLACK BEAUTY CHROMED FOIL NIB MINT
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/203211481973


OH yeah, I forgot about KenRad VT231/6SN7GT (BG)...last year, you still can get them for USD100-125 in mint condition or NOS per piece. Damn me, actually, someone has offered me USD250 for a pair unused in original military boxes but I passed. I must have banged my head on that day...


----------



## TLO

Mr Trev said:


> Delicious, but deadly


Yeah, can you imagine ppl drinking from lead glass for decades....


----------



## musicinmymind

All of my favorite Russian sellers are taken off till 2030 on ebay


----------



## bcowen

musicinmymind said:


> All of my favorite Russian sellers are taken off till 2030 on ebay


"A _delay_ in delivery" until 2030?  That'd be a very long time sitting out by the mailbox waiting.


----------



## Galapac

TLO said:


> Yeah, can you imagine ppl drinking from lead glass for decades....


That explains a lot, lol. Drinking wine from lead crystal while reloading bullets an soldering electronics, I’m f’d, lol.


----------



## Mr Trev

TLO said:


> Yeah, can you imagine ppl drinking from lead glass for decades....


IIRC lead glass was OK, it was the pewter goblets that were the issue


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> That explains a lot, lol. Drinking wine from lead crystal while reloading bullets an soldering electronics, I’m f’d, lol.


You were lucky.  We had to drink moonshine from lead cups made from bullet casting scraps, and then walk uphill 5 miles in the snow to go to our soldering jobs for 26 hours a day.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> You were lucky.  We had to drink moonshine from lead cups made from bullet casting scraps, and then walk uphill 5 miles in the snow to go to our soldering jobs for 26 hours a day.


Luxury, we had to walk kilometres.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Luxury, we had to walk kilometres.


😂   Is that more than miles?  We couldn't afford calculators.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 12, 2022)

bcowen said:


> You were lucky.  We had to drink moonshine from lead cups made from bullet casting scraps, and then walk uphill 5 miles in the snow to go to our soldering jobs for 26 hours a day.





Mr Trev said:


> Luxury, we had to walk kilometres.





bcowen said:


> 😂   Is that more than miles?  We couldn't afford calculators.


The Iconic Four Yorkshiremen | At Last the 1948 Show
​


----------



## Galapac

hmscott said:


> The Iconic Four Yorkshiremen | At Last the 1948 Show



Ahhh.…the great Marty Feldman…he was great. A young John Cleese too.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 14, 2022)

bcowen said:


> You were lucky.  We had to drink moonshine from lead cups made from bullet casting scraps, and then walk uphill 5 miles in the snow to go to our soldering jobs for 26 hours a day.


Pffft.  You were lucky.  We had to walk 7.5 miles uphill to our jobs where the solder techs would repeatedly wipe their lead solder laden soldering iron tips clean on our tongues for 32 hours a day.

To add insult to injury we got no bathroom break and only a 15 minute lunch where we were forced to eat NC barbecue and then drink Ipecac syrup so they could feed us the bbq again the next day. 😒


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> Oh my.  Looks like we might need a _group_ intervention here.  😆


I can quit any time I want to...


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> I can quit any time I want to...


Now, we are talking...we can all sit at home, suck thumb and enjoy our music...😆


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> I can quit any time I want to...


This is like an addict saying "I'm not an addict."


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Dream on, it may be years before I can buy more Melz.😜


Truth be told, the supply line of those tubes is totally interrupted now (if any were left 🤐). Yours just got extinct and expensive, Fotons too (hear hear @bcowen)


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Just get a bigger container.  If you can't beat OCD, join it.  😂😂


Agree, we stepped into the "medical cases" category long time ago  😂😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  And after we've figured out all that we can see, @Tom-s needs to turn the box upside down and shake it furiously to start a new puzzle.  🤣


Tube shaking puzzle is a GE factory product as any change from intended sound is definitely a better one


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Pffft.  We had to walk 7.5 miles uphill to our jobs where the solder techs would repeatedly wipe their lead solder laden soldering iron tips clean on our tongues for 32 hours a day.
> 
> To add insult to injury we got no bathroom break and only a 15 minute lunch where we were forced to eat NC barbecue and then drink Ipecac syrup so *they could feed us the bbq again the next day. *😒


At which point it became known as TX barbeque.


----------



## HTSkywalker

OctavianH said:


> I like Tom, I like his tubes, I want them. Anyway I am close to his style.


Still a curable case 😃


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Truth be told, the supply line of those tubes is totally interrupted now (if any were left 🤐). Yours just got extinct and expensive, Fotons too (hear hear @bcowen)


I'll start accepting offers shortly starting at $500/pair for Fotons.  $700/pair resoldered (5 miles is a long walk in the snow).


----------



## HTSkywalker

hmscott said:


> Happy news, Melz are still available! - from an eBay seller still in Ukraine!
> 
> NOS MELZ 6n8s tube metal base hole 6SN7gt vt231 ecc33 same date
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/323344320267
> ...


Benefit from the shipping corridors while still possible, probably by the time I posted @Paladin79 already ordered the remaining patch 😄


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> 😂 Is that more than miles? We couldn’t afford calculators count beyond our fingers…🤷🏻‍♂️.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> ….the GEs will sink to the bottom, like mud, after a bit…😜


Or always surface if your luck sucks 😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I'll start accepting offers shortly starting at $500/pair for Fotons.  $700/pair resoldered (5 miles is a long walk in the snow).


Will swipe my losing stocks for tubes anytime


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> Locked and loaded! (not my pic sadly - https://theirontailor.blogspot.com/2015/06/bandoleer.html)


This belt is intended to be used by tube smugglers


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I'll start accepting offers shortly starting at $500/pair for Fotons.  $*800*/pair resoldered (5 miles is a long walk _uphill barefoot _in the snow).


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> I'll start accepting offers shortly starting at $500/pair for Fotons.  $700/pair resoldered (5 miles is a long walk in the snow).


Don’t forget cryo treatment (from the drop in the snow) and matching up charge…


----------



## TLO

HTSkywalker said:


> This belt is intended to be used by tube smugglers


I thought this is made specially for tube rollers...lol


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> This belt is intended to be used by tube smugglers


Not needed for ECGs / GEs…


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Good thing most of us have backups. That explains the recent price hikes on a lot of TUNG-SOL reissues and the like In the market.


We should start targeting the EU tube market as probably they are selling to bridge the fuel price hike


----------



## HTSkywalker

TLO said:


> I thought this is made specially for tube rollers...lol


The ones on the move 😃😃


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> Or always surface if your luck sucks 😂😂


The Don Cameron Sweezy GE tube: you keep on lucking, it keeps on sucking…(nightmare from schenectady ny)


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Not needed for ECGs / GEs…


It would be like carrying a Mont-Blanc wallet with just coins inside 😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> It would be like carrying a Mont-Blanc wallet with just coins inside 😂😂


…. ‘just coins’ ($, £, €, ¥) > ♾ ECG / GE …🤔


----------



## hmscott (Mar 13, 2022)

HTSkywalker said:


> Benefit from the shipping corridors while still possible, probably by the time I posted @Paladin79 already ordered the remaining patch 😄


Yup, I did notice after I posted that Ukraine sellers link @Paladin79 went into stealth mode - he shows up online, but isn't posting.
He's probably still tearing up eBay searching for more Ukraine stores still online...with Melz!  


HTSkywalker said:


> We should start targeting the EU tube market as probably they are selling to bridge the fuel price hike


I've noticed I'm getting offers with larger discounts, cashing out before things get worse?

Here's an experiment I set off not 5 minutes ago by simply putting this item in my Cart - I do that a lot 

And, I already received a price slashing offer minutes later:

Special limited-time 53% discount on Pair Raytheon/Westinghouse JRP-6080WB Po...
Review offer
You received an offer
Other buyers may have received this offer. The first to accept, gets the deal.
Pair Raytheon/Westinghouse JRP-6080WB Power Tube NOS-Tested
Previous price was $350.00
Seller's Offer $165.00 ($185.00 off)

That one was easy though, it's that auction house...they always put things up for 2x-4x more than it is worth, probably mostly because they don't specialize in tubes...

Hmm, skipping the Quad Sylvania 6SN7GTB offer which was also a big slash, and a Hanoitubes offer which took off $15 from $485!!, Wow.  There is another auction item:

2, NOS CBS JAN-5692….pair Tubes #84
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255375009807
Item ID: 255375009807
Buy It Now price: $400.00
Your offer: $200.00
Offer expires: Mar-13 16:16:41 PDT
Seller: huntandpeckauctions(5,231

That one I would make a counter offer on if I didn't already have a '57 5692 

I get a few a day, I'm hoping offers will increase as transactions drop - if they do...gas and food are getting darned expensive...


----------



## hmscott (Mar 13, 2022)

Please delete...merged side by side posts


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> It would be like carrying a Mont-Blanc wallet with just coins inside 😂😂


Or divorce papers.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 13, 2022)

Melz and other brands are starting to pop up for sale from Romania and Ukraine.  I do not need many more but it is good to see other tube outlets.

Oh and I am on head-fi with multiple devices but I got busy watching college basketball as well as setting up an outside wi-fi antenna that reaches my fire pit area. I found a program that gives you a visual representation of signal strength as you walk though an area.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 13, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Melz and other brands are starting to pop up for sale from Romania and Ukraine.  *I do not need many more* but it is good to see other tube outlets.


For crying out loud, what does *need* have to do with this?  Am I to infer my 9 decades of dedicated education effort is all for naught?


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Melz and other brands are starting to pop up for sale from Romania and Ukraine.  I do not need many more but it is good to see other tube outlets.
> 
> Oh and I am on head-fi with multiple devices but I got busy watching college basketball as well as setting up an outside *wi-fi *antenna that reaches my fire pit area. I found a program that gives you a visual representation of signal strength as you walk though an area.


…oh, not chi-fi detection…😲


----------



## rawheadjim

As many others before me have said, I already have more than I need, but not nearly as many as I want!


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 13, 2022)

Tubes I can find, I will not be designing and building any amps for a while so my needs are less. I also have favorite 6SN7’s I want to keep from 1500 different choices.😎


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> At which point it became known as TX barbeque.



If by that you mean baby-bird style NC BBQ tastes better than fresh NC BBQ, then its a resounding YES! 

(I left the door open to that one.)


----------



## Isaacc7

Ranger Ron said:


> Round micas I believe are the first examples. I’ve listened to 6sn7,6f8g and 6c8g versions, the only significant difference I noticed was more gain from the 6c8g.


Oh good. I stumbled across a new ebay listing for a pair of Tungsol 6c8g RP for a decent price. I have the TSRP 12sn7 for my preamp but my amp has to use 6v tubes. I have given up trying to find the round plate 6sn7 or 6f8g. Hoping the 6c8g is just as good.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …. ‘just coins’ ($, £, €, ¥) > ♾ ECG / GE …🤔


AGREE as the ECG/GE tubes are a waste of space 😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

hmscott said:


> Yup, I did notice after I posted that Ukraine sellers link @Paladin79 went into stealth mode - he shows up online, but isn't posting.
> He's probably still tearing up eBay searching for more Ukraine stores still online...with Melz!
> 
> I've noticed I'm getting offers with larger discounts, cashing out before things get worse?
> ...


It's nasty business but still buying a discounted tube is an opportunity not to be missed 😃😃
@Paladin79 got a head start though.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Or divorce papers.


🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> For crying out loud, what does *need* have to do with this?  Am I to infer my 9 decades of dedicated education effort is all for naught?


@Paladin79 is Just another desperate case in denial like most of us 😁


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> Oh good. I stumbled across a new ebay listing for a pair of Tungsol 6c8g RP for a decent price. I have the TSRP 12sn7 for my preamp but my amp has to use 6v tubes. I have given up trying to find the round plate 6sn7 or 6f8g. Hoping the 6c8g is just as good.


Make sure that TS 6C8G has the same construction, black glass and round plate and not just round plate as almost all 6C8G makes have round plate. Note the second, third and forth tube are labeled TS, but only the third tube is the real TS BGRP. Two on the left are in fact RCA made and the other two on the right are NU. Note the differences on the internal construction between them.


----------



## MacMan31

Clearly I have missed a whole lot in the last few days of being sick. @TLO Those look like some awesome tubes. 

So in my batch of tubes I got recently there are some 6SL7 tubes. Can I use them in my Lyr 3 or Saga Plus? The pin count and arrangement look identical to the 6SN7 tubes. Or would I need an adapter if such a thing exists?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 14, 2022)

Nope.  Electrically they are not the same.  I know of no adapters for 6SL7 tube to 6SN7 amp applications.  Most adapters only correct pin-out differences.  They typically do not contain elements to correct electrical value differences.

(What Paladin said below.  BTW  -- Mu = Gain.   )


----------



## Paladin79

MacMan31 said:


> Clearly I have missed a whole lot in the last few days of being sick. @TLO Those look like some awesome tubes.
> 
> So in my batch of tubes I got recently there are some 6SL7 tubes. Can I use them in my Lyr 3 or Saga Plus? The pin count and arrangement look identical to the 6SN7 tubes. Or would I need an adapter if such a thing exists?


6sl7's are high Mu tubes where 6sn7's are low Mu, personally I would not use them in that circuit without getting some info from Jason.


----------



## TLO (Mar 14, 2022)

MacMan31 said:


> Clearly I have missed a whole lot in the last few days of being sick. @TLO Those look like some awesome tubes.
> 
> So in my batch of tubes I got recently there are some 6SL7 tubes. Can I use them in my Lyr 3 or Saga Plus? The pin count and arrangement look identical to the 6SN7 tubes. Or would I need an adapter if such a thing exists?


I cant say as I have no experience with either Lyr 3 or Saga Plus, hope someone else could clarify that for you. Nevertheless, though 6SL7 and 6SN7 have the exact same pin out but they are electrically not the same as well as 6SL7 has a gain of 70 and 6SN7 has 20. It is always good to study the specs of tubes here:
The Valve Museum
6SL7GT
6SN7GT

I should add that I have read some amps can take either 6SL7GT or 6SN7GT, if your amp is one of those, you dont need adapter as they have the same pin out.


----------



## Paladin79

MacMan31 said:


> Clearly I have missed a whole lot in the last few days of being sick. @TLO Those look like some awesome tubes.
> 
> So in my batch of tubes I got recently there are some 6SL7 tubes. Can I use them in my Lyr 3 or Saga Plus? The pin count and arrangement look identical to the 6SN7 tubes. Or would I need an adapter if such a thing exists?


I do run 6sl7's in my Cary amp but I am very particular about those tubes. The Melz 1579 can be decent but getting them now from Ukraine can be iffy.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2654050728...7Dqxxmp2mwj9Wm3z|clp:2334524|tkp:BFBM9oWvjPFf

I am currently running some JAN Sylvania WGT versions, brown base, that I like a lot.


----------



## MacMan31

So I looked through all the tubes in the stash. Two for sure are 6SL7 and three of the tubes do not indicate either way. The three in the photo below. Also the glass on the Marconi on the right is crooked from the base. Nothing is loose. Perhaps it's just how it came out in manufacturing.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Make sure that TS 6C8G has the same construction, black glass and round plate and not just round plate as almost all 6C8G makes have round plate. Note the second, third and forth tube are labeled TS, but only the third tube is the real TS BGRP. Two on the left are in fact RCA made and the other two on the right are NU. Note the differences on the internal construction between them.


Yup, the ones I bought have black glass.


----------



## Isaacc7

Paladin79 said:


> I do run 6sl7's in my Cary amp but I am very particular about those tubes. The Melz 1579 can be decent but getting them now from Ukraine can be iffy.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/265405072858?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item3dcb6005da:g:m3YAAOSwuUthaUaR&amdata=enc:AQAGAAACkPYe5NmHp%2B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsStdebXPz4ZTXCT8FI9kPBh9nGb9cuEy7MmsVY2hW4tBf%2BqobMzwQ6eoapdKt9fltzR50tRCA1GQNj7F5XU%2FVZemvQCqTGdesbCmzILZOL8X6oIa2zqed7HfrQBU5PywaozRysyOzNOdMt6rpLtRpFuNnhOjHgIzToNiekMUkro%2FOIaEkwo%2Fwusu1CxiFw2D%2BfiewExU0dhB16Di86mUfespcZPE3aPnv2J32UHsUcYGTCiTxeP6Kr6wHKRVctrIdhdj3sKDkB6x7%2FEbTN8iXnFLrdg5kVTnMSrh7zOhKvx6uhCSJWjGlRxvJSOi3s8U%2FBqttxTEro362RlEVoc08a4chZnQoKg4ZTTD88VdqBXlVixD1O%2FcdDNq1lQRcMSRvkveVwMjrhbgYnjYhkIV%2Buh%2FYkj0gsfqUQt9FNWWVVpsowsRYKZHRoFYlVI7ktLLp5t8jguRmjbevf4ruVB2ibT5qrUga%2FqbU9qLcvCsW6SsqH%2FuDhZqNalPFRmXfe5Fhx5IUj3D7Hw0rs%2FSqvXoCfn56VraU6r9I9YtjSi7%2F7J2OAabWxBQpS3vdPJJ7DWv4mqMSbIc4aHvX38Z6MAwqqlpEnOoILgRS8XUo9GOdh5wCrIsaeFT9kjNccz1iHbGdQ0XctuYE4Z16f3igO2LXl5cGZshj6ZQDONk5KJdyn5N5tCNvWbhIJgNALtZ5Ln9%2FSoybJLYb3v75IFavV07%2FK0pn%2BfOnbUXwZ0%2BnCihiGLoi6FFRv86olGWCapFWmk33k149o%2FLiQX18qDT4MQjcgGkTRgfIgNfbeYkGrJLmiZXRKLcaT7Dqxxmp2mwj9Wm3z|clp:2334524|tkp:BFBM9oWvjPFf
> 
> I am currently running some JAN Sylvania WGT versions, brown base, that I like a lot.


Those brown base Sylvania 6sl7 are really nice and they really aren’t very expensive. The 6sl7 tubes are priced quite a bit better than the 6sn7. If your amp can use them they are worth trying. I slightly prefer the tall sylvania 6sl7w with the bottom getter but will listen to the brown base version happily.


----------



## Paladin79

Isaacc7 said:


> Those brown base Sylvania 6sl7 are really nice and they really aren’t very expensive. The 6sl7 tubes are priced quite a bit better than the 6sn7. If your amp can use them they are worth trying. I slightly prefer the tall sylvania 6sl7w with the bottom getter but will listen to the brown base version happily.


I have to match the power amp with a Freya + and often run at least two quality Melz in the Freya so I have some wiggle room on the Cary.   Most of my experience is with 6sn7's and 6sl7's so I have a pretty good handle on pricing. I do know 6sn7's and equivalents better of course.


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> So I looked through all the tubes in the stash. Two for sure are 6SL7 and three of the tubes do not indicate either way. The three in the photo below. Also the glass on the Marconi on the right is crooked from the base. Nothing is loose. Perhaps it's just how it came out in manufacturing.


The first thing to look at is the shape of the plates.  Most 6SL7's have round plates and very few 6SN7's do. As far as US manufacturers I believe Tung Sol was the only one that made a 6SN7 with round plates, but there were some European manufacturers that did early on. The RCA on the left is definitely a 6SL7.  I can't tell for sure from the photo with the Marconi on the right-- the plates look to be rounded, but you'd have to take a closer look.  The GE in the middle appears to have flat plates, so it could be a 6SN7...but then it's probably not worth the bother sonically to find out for sure.


----------



## MacMan31

bcowen said:


> The first thing to look at is the shape of the plates.  Most 6SL7's have round plates and very few 6SN7's do. As far as US manufacturers I believe Tung Sol was the only one that made a 6SN7 with round plates, but there were some European manufacturers that did early on. The RCA on the left is definitely a 6SL7.  I can't tell for sure from the photo with the Marconi on the right-- the plates look to be rounded, but you'd have to take a closer look.  The GE in the middle appears to have flat plates, so it could be a 6SN7...but then it's probably not worth the bother sonically to find out for sure.



Here is a couple more pics of the Marconi tube. The GE definitely has round plates.


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> Here is a couple more pics of the Marconi tube. The GE definitely has round plates.


I see it better now.  The Marconi has T-plates (not round), so a very high probability it's a 6SN7 although I can't guarantee it.

Are you sure on the GE?  Those sure look like flat ladder plates in it in your first photo, but that may just be a photo angle thing.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> The first thing to look at is the shape of the plates.  Most 6SL7's have round plates and very few 6SN7's do. As far as US manufacturers I believe Tung Sol was the only one that made a 6SN7 with round plates, but there were some European manufacturers that did early on. The RCA on the left is definitely a 6SL7.  I can't tell for sure from the photo with the Marconi on the right-- the plates look to be rounded, but you'd have to take a closer look.  The GE in the middle appears to have flat plates, so it could be a 6SN7...but then it's probably not worth the bother sonically to find out for sure.


If you see a round plate 6SN7...🕺🕺🕺
If you see a black glass round plate 6SN7.......🥂💫🕺🌈🎉🎊😂🤣😂


----------



## TLO (Mar 14, 2022)

GE is a ridged flat plate 6SN7GT and Marconi is a T-plate 6SN7GT made in Canada, by RCA/Radiotron.


----------



## Paladin79

TLO said:


> If you see a round plate 6SN7...🕺🕺🕺
> If you see a black glass round plate 6SN7.......🥂💫🕺🌈🎉🎊😂🤣😂


I have seen three prototype 6sn7's made with round plates similar to Tung Sol, one finished toward the top in my groups 6sn7 testing. They are one of a kind and never reached production for RCA.


----------



## TLO

Paladin79 said:


> I have seen three prototype 6sn7's made with round plates similar to Tung Sol, one finished toward the top in my groups 6sn7 testing. They are one of a kind and never reached production for RCA.


OMG...can you take some pictures and allow us to have the pleasure looking at these precious tubes?


----------



## Paladin79

TLO said:


> OMG...can you take some pictures and allow us to have the pleasure looking at these precious tubes?


I only had a couple in my possession for a short time and I was scared to death when I did lol. I believe I took a photo or two and will look for those when time allows.


----------



## paradoxper

Just wonderfully balanced. Yet MELZ 1578 still reigns.

I really enjoy how tight and impactful the bass response is with providing a bodied midrange without excess warmth and a good sense of space and reverb. Kind of an inbetween Ken-Rad VT231 but perhaps more defined as a whole.
The only perceived weak spot, these Treasure types seem to strike towards a softer treble presence although not overtly so.

I keep wondering what is it about the mica/getter construction/material that makes the 1578 that damn special.


----------



## jbua5150

I know what I’m doing tonight.
Looking forward to hearing their signature. 
These will swap out a nice pair of 6SN7WGTA that I quite enjoy.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 14, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Just wonderfully balanced. Yet MELZ 1578 still reigns.
> 
> I really enjoy how tight and impactful the bass response is with providing a bodied midrange without excess warmth and a good sense of space and reverb. Kind of an inbetween Ken-Rad VT231 but perhaps more defined as a whole.
> The only perceived weak spot, these Treasure types seem to strike towards a softer treble presence although not overtly so.
> ...


That is a tough question to answer concerning the Melz. What we know as the 1578 was made for four decades and while I own and have heard many, the late 50's and early 60's sound so much different than those from the 70's and 80's. I have most variations from the early fifties and they are fine sounding tubes as well.

We tested various types of Melz in some local tube studies but settled on a solid plate version as the pinnacle. Next was a 1961 standard construction 1578 I do believe.


----------



## tafens

Ripper2860 said:


> Pffft.  We had to walk 7.5 miles uphill to our jobs where the solder techs would repeatedly wipe their lead solder laden soldering iron tips clean on our tongues for 32 hours a day.
> 
> To add insult to injury we got no bathroom break and only a 15 minute lunch where we were forced to eat NC barbecue and then drink Ipecac syrup so they could feed us the bbq again the next day. 😒


What about the way home?
Just a guess but.. also uphill?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 14, 2022)

We didn't get to go home.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> That is a tough question to answer concerning the Melz. What we know as the 1578 was made for four decades and while I own and have heard many, the late 50's and early 60's sound so much different than those from the 70's and 80's. I have most variations from the early fifties and they are fine sounding tubes as well.
> 
> We tested various types of Melz in some local tube studies but settled on a solid plate version as the pinnacle. Next was a 1961 standard construction 1578 I do believe.


I think it's an open-ended ambiguity. All I know is the 59 perforated 1578 sounds so decisively magical in its open space, it makes me question conscience.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> That is a tough question to answer concerning the Melz. What we know as the 1578 was made for four decades and while I own and have heard many, the late 50's and early 60's sound so much different than those from the 70's and 80's. I have most variations from the early fifties and they are fine sounding tubes as well.
> 
> We tested various types of Melz in some local tube studies but settled on a solid plate version as the pinnacle. Next was a 1961 standard construction 1578 I do believe.


The 50s and early 60s tubes probably contain more hand assembly operations than the later Melz. So, when grandma was replaced by a grid winding machine, production volume increased, but the great sound went home with the retired grandma.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> I think it's an open-ended ambiguity. All I know is the 59 perforated 1578 sounds so decisively magical in its open space, it makes me question conscience.


That is indeed one of my favorite tubes from the golden age of Melz. I can run most any 6SN7 or equivalent in amps I designed but I seldom bother.😜



Finnegan is helping check out an early perforated plate here. Different micas and supports but a Melz all the same.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> That is indeed one of my favorite tubes from the golden age of Melz. I can run most any 6SN7 or equivalent in amps I designed but I seldom bother.😜
> 
> 
> 
> Finnegan is helping check out an early perforated plate here. Different micas and supports but a Melz all the same.


To seldom bother. You spoiled boy! Ha.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> To seldom bother. You spoiled boy! Ha.


It has taken me a few years and a lot of listening to realize which 6sn7's type tubes are right for me. I designed an amp around its ability to show off that type of sound. Luckily I had a lot of local friends who helped with the project and bought other tubes as I bought more and more Melz. I have plenty of variation between the Melz I own to keep me happy for a long time.   Put another way, if you have a cellar full of Caparzo, Rosso di Montalcino, why drink this..

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Oak-Leaf...tbu84V8BYfEh1yjwQfMaAgxlEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> That is indeed one of my favorite tubes from the golden age of Melz. I can run most any 6SN7 or equivalent in amps I designed but I seldom bother.😜
> 
> 
> 
> Finnegan is helping check out an early perforated plate here. Different micas and supports but a Melz all the same.


You have a very discriminating feline. Has he consulted with @bcowen on the efficacy of GE tubes??


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> It has taken me a few years and a lot of listening to realize which 6sn7's type tubes are right for me. I designed an amp around its ability to show off that type of sound. Luckily I had a lot of local friends who helped with the project and bought other tubes as I bought more and more Melz. I have plenty of variation between the Melz I own to keep me happy for a long time.   Put another way, if you have a cellar full of Caparzo, Rosso di Montalcino, why drink this..
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Oak-Leaf...tbu84V8BYfEh1yjwQfMaAgxlEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


How I often feel when switching from my speakers to slumming with headphones.  🤣


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> How I often feel when switching from my speakers to slumming with headphones.  🤣


I run Focal Utopias so at times it is hard for my speakers to measure up.😜 I can hear greater differences between tubes with headphones but YMMV


----------



## paradoxper

Before I go: God D mother*****

I was reminded Linlai superiority over samesies Shua-Vane, so any Elite E-6SN7 takers? I surmise these likely perform quite very close to the Treasure II and thus wondering if any refinements may be worth the actual duplicity. I feel skeptical considering any more neutrality, clarity may remark in mediocrity in the way of solid state, that is, baby.

Pass or might as well. LOL


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> You have a very discriminating feline. Has he consulted with @bcowen on the efficacy of GE tubes??


Finnegan is only allowed to mentor Mr Cowen if Bill is wearing a flea collar and a mask.😺

Finnegan was born after our bet so he has only heard GE power tubes.


----------



## MacMan31

bcowen said:


> I see it better now.  The Marconi has T-plates (not round), so a very high probability it's a 6SN7 although I can't guarantee it.
> 
> Are you sure on the GE?  Those sure look like flat ladder plates in it in your first photo, but that may just be a photo angle thing.




This is the GE tube.


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> This is the GE tube.


Flat plates.


----------



## MacMan31

bcowen said:


> Flat plates.



Yes. So it is in fact a 6SL7?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It has taken me a few years and a lot of listening to realize which 6sn7's type tubes are right for me. I designed an amp around its ability to show off that type of sound. Luckily I had a lot of local friends who helped with the project and bought other tubes as I bought more and more Melz. I have plenty of variation between the Melz I own to keep me happy for a long time.   Put another way, if you have a cellar full of Caparzo, Rosso di Montalcino, why drink this..
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Oak-Leaf...tbu84V8BYfEh1yjwQfMaAgxlEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


Wait....you mean Oak Leaf isn't considered good?  Crap.


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> Yes. So it is in fact a 6SL7?


No, if it was a 6SL7 it would have round plates.  As @TLO mentioned, it's most likely a 6SN7.


----------



## MacMan31

But it is a round plate. Just like the RCA one. 🤷‍♂️ Anyways I won't take a chance on it just in case.


----------



## TLO

MacMan31 said:


> This is the GE tube.


Correct me if I am wrong, that is definitely a GE 6SN7GTB.


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> This is the GE tube.


Are you looking at the plates or the micas?


----------



## TLO

MacMan31 said:


> But it is a round plate. Just like the RCA one. 🤷‍♂️ Anyways I won't take a chance on it just in case.


No, it is a ridged flat plate or others called it ladder flat plate...check in Ebay how round plates look like, especially TS 6SN7GT, TS 6C8G (black glass), NU 6C8G or RCA 6C8G.


----------



## Galapac

paradoxper said:


> How I often feel when switching from my speakers to slumming with headphones.  🤣


All in jest I know…but there is something about the intimacy of headphones for me where I am “in the music” that speakers cannot match.


----------



## paradoxper

Galapac said:


> All in jest I know…but there is something about the intimacy of headphones for me where I am “in the music” that speakers cannot match.


Yes, we slum it, in the music.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> All in jest I know…but there is something about the intimacy of headphones for me where I am “in the music” that speakers cannot match.


For me as well.  But when it comes time to rock out, cranking the volume up to "structural damage" level can best be done with speakers.


----------



## MacMan31

bcowen said:


> Are you looking at the plates or the micas?



I was looking at the round flat medal disc at the top of the tube and the matching one near the bottom. But I guess I'm looking at the wrong thing.


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> I was looking at the round flat medal disc at the top of the tube and the matching one near the bottom. But I guess I'm looking at the wrong thing.


Yup, those are the micas.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 14, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Put another way, if you have a cellar full of Caparzo, Rosso di Montalcino, why drink this..
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Oak-Leaf...tbu84V8BYfEh1yjwQfMaAgxlEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


If you wear ‘sky blue’ coloured t-shirts, live on BBQ, live in a tilted cardboard abode, own an antediluvian Mazda on blocks…(PS, was the review by you-know-who submitted fourteen times?…)


----------



## MacMan31

bcowen said:


> Yup, those are the micas.



Okay. I admit I don't know the names of each part of a tube. So it is in fact a 6SN7 tube?


----------



## paradoxper

TLO said:


> No, it is a ridged flat plate or others called it ladder flat plate...check in Ebay how round plates look like, especially TS 6SN7GT, TS 6C8G (black glass), NU 6C8G or RCA 6C8G.


Hmm. I check eBay: MELZ 1578 perforated plate; I see no results.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Wait....you mean Oak Leaf isn't considered good?  _Oh, it *is *_Crap.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> All in jest I know…but there is something about the intimacy of headphones for me where I am “in the music”** that speakers cannot match.


** and afar from spouse…🤭


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> For me as well.  But when it comes time to rock out, cranking the volume up to "structural damage" level can best be done with speakers.


…with that cardboard abode, just over conversation level…😳


----------



## TLO

paradoxper said:


> Hmm. I check eBay: MELZ 1578 perforated plate; I see no results.


You are too late, @Paladin79 bought them all...😂


----------



## paradoxper

TLO said:


> You are too late, @Paladin79 bought them all...😂


I am slowly accruing. Albeit at the most ****ing ridiculous price structure. Make a buck, nimrod.


----------



## Paladin79

TLO said:


> You are too late, @Paladin79 bought them all...😂


I bought what I could before Russian sales were shut down. It is like a gaining a tempo in chess. As soon as sanctions were talked about in December, I tried to make one decisive move.😉


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I bought what I could before Russian sales were shut down. It is like a gaining a tempo in chess. As soon as sanctions were talked about in December, I tried to make one decisive move.😉


Q: “is my order in?” A: ☑️, mate!”


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> If you wear ‘sky blue’ coloured t-shirts, live on BBQ, live in a tilted cardboard abode, own an antediluvian Mazda on blocks…(PS, was the review by you-know-who submitted fourteen times?…)


Hey now.  😠 My abode is not tilted. Sagging maybe, but _not_ tilted.  Geeez.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Hey now.  😠 My abode is not tilted. Sagging maybe, but _not_ tilted.  Geeez.


Isn’t it further down the street than when you moved in? 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …with that cardboard abode, just over conversation level…😳


It's double wall, which everyone knows makes a huge difference.  I'm still saving up for corrugated.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Isn’t it further down the street than when you moved in? 🤣🤣🤣


Yes, but since my address continually changes it helps with the illusion that I'm a world traveler.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It's double wall, which everyone knows makes a huge difference.  I'm still saving up for corrugated.




One of Finnegan’s charities is Habitat for Coweninity.🤪


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> It's double wall, which everyone knows makes a huge difference.  I'm still saving up for corrugated.


*We know this routine:* quad wall for realtor, single wall for IRS…😤


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> One of Finnegan’s charities is Habitat for Coweninity.🤪


ROFL!!  🤣🤣\


Here, the little one accidentally brushed up against a GE tube, so a thorough decontamination was required:


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> *We know this routine:* quad wall for realtor, single wall for IRS…😤


And actual wood for super-rich people.  😂


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> One of Finnegan’s charities is Habitat for Coweninity.🤪


The fraternal charity to (and sponsor of) _Fotons For Felines….🎗_


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 14, 2022)

Starting the Foton journey. I think 58 is the year on the lot I bought. I wonder if anything particular to pay attention to. These seem quite plentiful so it makes it a little too difficult to gleam preferables. I wanted to go the RFT route but I guess the gut wants what the gut says.

I surmise from my research, stick to FOTON, NEVS, OR MELZ factory.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 14, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Starting the Foton journey. I think 58 is the year on the lot I bought. I wonder if anything particular to pay attention to. These seem quite plentiful so it makes it a little too difficult to gleam preferables. I wanted to go the RFT route but I guess the gut wants what the gut says.


IME, any of the '50's Fotons are very good. The ribbed plate version ('51 through part of '56) are a little better, but not worth paying a huge premium for IMO.  Biggest issue with the 50's Fotons (and some Melz too) is degraded solder in the pins.  If you get spurious noises, crackling, etc, it's due to that in many cases.  Can be remedied easily enough by resoldering if you have the stuff to solder with.

'50's Melz (regular 6N8S) are also very good.  Not to 1578 level, but then they don't cost as much either.  A bit different presentation than the Fotons, so it will ultimately come down to system synergy and preference as to which is best far any particular person.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> IME, any of the '50's are very good. The ribbed plate version ('51 through part of '56) are a little better, but not worth paying a huge premium for IMO.  Biggest issue with the 50's Fotons (and some Melz too) is degraded solder in the pins.  If you get spurious noises, crackling, etc, it's due to that in many cases.  Can be remedied by resoldering easily enough if you have the stuff to solder with.


I'm reading a few threads from 2010 and gaining this picture. Oh, I've resoldered every 1578 and will follow same operational nature. I wanted to amass 30 of each and am barely at a quarter of each. Get it while I'm still not broke.


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 14, 2022)

Ok. 6N1P with 6SN7 should be ok, right? The 76 types will work just not optimally due to bias for context.

Oh, is the 6N1P too obscure, ya'll boys got real quiet. LOL.

I looked up the specs. Thanks.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> IME, any of the '50's Fotons are very good. The ribbed plate version ('51 through part of '56) are a little better, but not worth paying a huge premium for IMO.  Biggest issue with the 50's Fotons (and some Melz too) is degraded solder in the pins.  If you get spurious noises, crackling, etc, it's due to that in many cases.  Can be remedied easily enough by resoldering if you have the stuff to solder with.


Been a while. Remind me what calibre of soldering iron do you need for this. Just a simple adjustable iron, or a jeebus big gun?


----------



## Galapac (Mar 14, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> Been a while. Remind me what calibre of soldering iron do you need for this. Just a simple adjustable iron, or a jeebus big gun?


Just an adjustable iron. Helps to have a clip on the pins you are soldering to diffuse the heat.
Also flux the pins first for easier soldering.

From @Paladin79 notes:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/post-14881488


----------



## Galapac (Mar 14, 2022)

Are you guys on a buying spree?


----------



## Isaacc7

Galapac said:


> Are you guys on a buying spree?


I got several quads from them last week before it sank in that Russian tubes were going to be scarce. Prices shot up quickly and now places can't keep up.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Been a while. Remind me what calibre of soldering iron do you need for this. Just a simple adjustable iron, or a jeebus big gun?


https://www.amazon.com/Rework-Stati...10961&sprefix=soldering+station,aps,97&sr=8-1


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Are you guys on a buying spree?


Well, I'm pretty sure that's not where @Paladin79 is hoarding Melz from, so that can leave only one guilty party:  @Ripper2860 .  Figures.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Rework-Station-Soldering-Machine-Alignment/dp/B01M9EJ70D/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XVLZPE0XTZGE&keywords=soldering+station&qid=1647310961&sprefix=soldering+station,aps,97&sr=8-1


BGA - Big Gigantic A$$ Soldering rework station.😂


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 14, 2022)

Well, I'm prett


> Well, I'm pretty sure that's not where @Paladin79 is hoarding Melz from, so that can leave only one guilty party: @Ripper2860 . Figures.


Not me.  I'm on a tube buying hiatus.  😏


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> Ok. 6N1P with 6SN7 should be ok, right? The 76 types will work just not optimally due to bias for context.
> 
> Oh, is the 6N1P too obscure, ya'll boys got real quiet. LOL.
> 
> I looked up the specs. Thanks.


Sorry...   6N1P is much closer to a 6922, and I hadn't ever looked it up in comparison to a 6SN7.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Not me.  I'm on a tube buying hiatus.  😏


Until tomorrow, still?


----------



## Ripper2860

One day at a time. 😉


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Rework-Station-Soldering-Machine-Alignment/dp/B01M9EJ70D/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XVLZPE0XTZGE&keywords=soldering+station&qid=1647310961&sprefix=soldering+station,aps,97&sr=8-1


At least I know where to get the proper tools to build my doomsday machine now


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Been a while. Remind me what calibre of soldering iron do you need for this. Just a simple adjustable iron, or a jeebus big gun?


More seriously, I just picked up one of these a few weeks ago.  It replaces my 25 year old Weller station that still worked, but the iron was coming apart and replacements no longer available due to antiquity.   

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077JDGY1J/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> More seriously, I just picked up one of these a few weeks ago.  It replaces my 25 year old Weller station that still worked, but the iron was coming apart and replacements no longer available due to antiquity.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077JDGY1J/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I have a cheap-ass 20-40w adjustable iron right now. I also have access to a 100w gun. Probably the biggest thing I'd need to get before attempting to resolder the pins in a decent vise type thing. Sure, I could just hold the tube in my mouth and attempt to resolder in the mirror…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> I have a cheap-ass 20-40w adjustable iron right now. I also have access to a 100w gun. Probably the biggest thing I'd need to get before attempting to resolder the pins in a decent vise type thing. Sure, I could just hold the tube in my mouth and attempt to resolder in the mirror…


LOL!  Except everything is backwards that way.  You might think you were soldering on Pin 1 when in fact you were doing Pin 8.  Ugly.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure that's not where @Paladin79 is hoarding Melz from, so that can leave only one guilty party: @Ripper2860 . Figures.


If you are hoarding, at least hoard from wholesale - not retail 🤪…


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, I'm prett
> 
> Not me.  I'm on *a tube *buying hiatus. 😏


Buying in bulk: full steam ahead!!!


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> I have a cheap-ass 20-40w adjustable iron right now. I also have access to a 100w gun. Probably the biggest thing I'd need to get before attempting to resolder the pins in a decent vise type thing. Sure, I could just hold the tube in my mouth and attempt to resolder in the mirror…


Get a Panavise, I have several but then I ran my own electronics business for nearly ten years. A quality magnifier light also helps, glass lens if you can afford it.
I still have unopened Weller and Hako soldering stations. I am a out to embark on a tenth source of income but I can still turn to electronics if ever needed.😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Get a Panavise, I have several but then I ran my own electronics business for nearly ten years. A quality magnifier light also helps, glass lens if you can afford it.
> I still have unopened Weller and Hako soldering stations. I am a out to embark on a tenth** source of income but I can still turn to electronics if ever needed.😜


** consecutive  😀 or simultaneous 🥵 ?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 14, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> ** consecutive  😀 or simultaneous 🥵 ?


Simultaneous, I stay pretty active and I am including my wife’s incomes. Her work in pottery is starting to pay dividends so that is number ten. I am excluding amplifier building for the time being or that would be eleven. I rely on a few Russian parts I can no longer get.


----------



## Galapac (Mar 14, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Get a Panavise


I cheaped out when I did mine and just used helping hands which also doubled as a heat sink/diffuser. A vise is just easier but didn’t have one at the time.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I cheaped out when I did mine and just used helping hands which also doubled as a heat sink/diffuser. A vise is just easier but didn’t have one at the time.





Not the best photos but here is the version I prefer. I can swap out the jaws for pc board holders.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I bought what I could before Russian sales were shut down. It is like a gaining a tempo in chess. As soon as sanctions were talked about in December, I tried to make one decisive move.😉


Wish i had that same insight before the stock market plunged 🥲🥲


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> One of Finnegan’s charities is Habitat for Coweninity.🤪


Seems you are preparing him for shipment 😝😝


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> Sorry...   6N1P is much closer to a 6922, and I hadn't ever looked it up in comparison to a 6SN7.


It is sort of a middle-outlander. Too many derivatives that aren't equivalents, so you must be prudent.

Is there anything else you think is understated? I adore MELZ, have pursued the modern expense, dipped into the known Sylvania/Jan/Ken-Rad. have a affinity for the RCA grey plate and I was looking at the RFT and they have curiously high pricing for my lack of understanding of their reputation. These Fotons I think will be a great surprise as it seems the more advanced military/nuclear applications breed the best tube performance and Russia had a special touch. One tube that stuck out but also did not are the Marconi. Just tell me you'll end up trying them all, at this point it's a begrudging curiosity.


----------



## HTSkywalker

paradoxper said:


> It is sort of a middle-outlander. Too many derivatives that aren't equivalents, so you must be prudent.
> 
> Is there anything else you think is understated? I adore MELZ, have pursued the modern expense, dipped into the known Sylvania/Jan/Ken-Rad. have a affinity for the RCA grey plate and I was looking at the RFT and they have curiously high pricing for my lack of understanding of their reputation. These Fotons I think will be a great surprise as it seems the more advanced military/nuclear applications breed the best tube performance and Russia had a special touch. One tube that stuck out but also did not are the Marconi. Just tell me you'll end up trying them all, at this point it's a begrudging curiosity.


Well I guess I have a Marconi laying around, I probably should give it another listen. Never thought highly of it previously.


----------



## paradoxper

HTSkywalker said:


> Well I guess I have a Marconi laying around, I probably should give it another listen. Never thought highly of it previously.


Let me know what you think. A few threads from 2010 mentioned them, funny, they also devolve in discourse how the 1578 aren't safe. The progression of ignorance.

A damper, or dumpster, the Treasure II have developed an immense noise. That is impressive and yet shameful. Their QA is legendary at this point.


----------



## HTSkywalker

paradoxper said:


> Let me know what you think. A few threads from 2010 mentioned them, funny, they also devolve in discourse how the 1578 aren't safe. The progression of ignorance.
> 
> A damper, or dumpster, the Treasure II have developed an immense noise. That is impressive and yet shameful. Their QA is legendary at this point.


Will do so once I dig them from the stach


----------



## TLO

HTSkywalker said:


> Well I guess I have a Marconi laying around, I probably should give it another listen. Never thought highly of it previously.


Marconi from where? Canada, England or Italy...there is a big difference.


----------



## HTSkywalker

TLO said:


> Marconi from where? Canada, England or Italy...there is a big difference.


I guess Canadian, is it any good ?


----------



## TLO

HTSkywalker said:


> I guess Canadian, is it any good ?


try and let us know....😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

TLO said:


> try and let us know....😄


Will do so, although your comment does not look promising  😆😆


----------



## TLO

HTSkywalker said:


> Will do so, although your comment does not look promising  😆😆


🤣no, not really, I just feel bad for you that you are not a thousand dollars richer...😅 Check the price of English and Italian made Marconi 6SN7 at Ebay.


----------



## HTSkywalker

TLO said:


> 🤣no, not really, I just feel bad for you that you are not a thousand dollars richer...😅 Check the price of English and Italian made Marconi 6SN7 at Ebay.


Loud and clear LOL


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> I guess Canadian, is it any good ?


The Canadian Marconis are RCA's.  European ones?  Not.  😂


----------



## Galapac

paradoxper said:


> A damper, or dumpster, the Treasure II have developed an immense noise. That is impressive and yet shameful. Their QA is legendary at this point.


The Chinese are notorious for never rejecting a tube short of not working. They will dump there rejects onto the secondary market where resellers snatch them up for pennies and sell on markets like eBay and AliExpress. If you go that route its best to go through a trusted seller who will pretest the tubes for you but expect to pay more for this.


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Wish i had that same insight before the stock market plunged 🥲🥲


Just before the plunge I removed most all money from a 401K, I am now positioned to search for bargains and reinvest.

I may have sent you a Canadian Marconi, they are ok but nothing like their counterparts.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> It is sort of a middle-outlander. Too many derivatives that aren't equivalents, so you must be prudent.
> 
> Is there anything else you think is understated? I adore MELZ, have pursued the modern expense, dipped into the known Sylvania/Jan/Ken-Rad. have a affinity for the RCA grey plate and I was looking at the RFT and they have curiously high pricing for my lack of understanding of their reputation. These Fotons I think will be a great surprise as it seems the more advanced military/nuclear applications breed the best tube performance and Russia had a special touch. One tube that stuck out but also did not are the Marconi. Just tell me you'll end up trying them all, at this point it's a begrudging curiosity.


The RFT's I own are decent, on a 100 point scale I would say about an 89. I tended to use RCA grey glass and Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass and Sylvania bad boys in my early experiments with blind tube listening as well as Foton and Melz. I sent a decent set to Jason at Schiit for one of his shootouts.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The Canadian Marconis are RCA's.  European ones?  Not.  😂


Still it does have an emotional value being a gift from @Paladin79


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Just before the plunge I removed most all money from a 401K, I am now positioned to search for bargains and reinvest.
> 
> I may have sent you a Canadian Marconi, they are ok but nothing like their counterparts.


True as I don't recall it stood out 😐


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Still it does have an emotional value being a gift from @Paladin79


Did you check to be sure there aren't any etched dots on it?  🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Still it does have an emotional value being a gift from @Paladin79


I have cleaned out most of my excess stock of 6sn7's other than a Melz I promised to donate, and there are a couple with a loaner amp that is currently in California as I recall.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> Did you check to be sure there aren't any etched dots on it?  🤣🤣


Lol...yeah, that stay away warning trademark..😂


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> 🤣no, not really, I just feel bad for you that you are not a thousand dollars richer...😅 Check the price of English and Italian made Marconi 6SN7 at Ebay.


…cartago_delenda_est…the wege_high_tubes protege…


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Did you check to be sure there aren't any etched dots on it?  🤣🤣


Hey any etched dot tubes I have are in a safe deposit box with your name on them, just let me know if there is a change of address on your cardboard box.


----------



## rawheadjim

I'm just learning abut Melz and don't know enough to be dangerous yet.  Not sure if this was a decent deal, someone already bought while I was looking at them!  I'm just looking for a decent pair from the 50's if possible, that won't break the bank!  This guy is in Ukraine but has perfect feedback.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133904943358?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## Paladin79

rawheadjim said:


> I'm just learning abut Melz and don't know enough to be dangerous yet.  Not sure if this was a decent deal, someone already bought while I was looking at them!  I'm just looking for a decent pair from the 50's if possible, that won't break the bank!  This guy is in Ukraine but has perfect feedback.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/133904943358?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


Those are not the most desired type but they are quite good. I would give them a rating of 87- 90 compared to some of the top Melz that can score as high as 97 on a system I use.  They would be a good tube to start with to see if you do like the Melz sound. One caveat is the solder in the pins, I generally replace that on Melz unless I am gifting one to a person I know can handle the soldering.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

Galapac said:


> The Chinese are notorious for never rejecting a tube short of not working. They will dump there rejects onto the secondary market where resellers snatch them up for pennies and sell on markets like eBay and AliExpress. If you go that route its best to go through a trusted seller who will pretest the tubes for you but expect to pay more for this.


Yup, the same goes for "cheap" tubes of other vintages as well, if the seller could charge more they would, and often within the same seller's inventory there are "NIB" NOS tubes that test as new for a much higher price.


Paladin79 said:


> The RFT's I own are decent, on a 100 point scale I would say about an 89. I tended to use RCA grey glass and Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass and Sylvania bad boys in my early experiments with blind tube listening as well as Foton and Melz. I sent a decent set to Jason at Schiit for one of his shootouts.


I'm looking for well priced NIB/new measuring RCA Grey Glass tubes, now more than ever, thanks for the heads-up. 

The best sounding 6SN7 tube in my TA-26 is my Ken-Rad "Black Beauty" VT-231, now I wish I had bought both of them available at that time.  

My VT-231 Bad Boy's also sound great!


----------



## Paladin79

hmscott said:


> Yup, the same goes for "cheap" tubes of other vintages as well, if the seller could charge more they would, and often within the same seller's inventory there are "NIB" NOS tubes that test as new for a much higher price.
> 
> I'm looking for well priced NIB/new measuring RCA Grey Glass tubes, now more than ever, thanks for the heads-up.
> 
> ...


I want to say the Ken-Rad reached the low nineties in our testing, the Bad Boy mid eighties. It had been a while since I looked at the black glass Ken Rads but I believe there are a couple versions, both close in scoring but I want to say the large letter version did a bit better. We tried to find all variations for work we did with all the 6sn7 equivalents we tried. Others specialized in Ken-Rad, Sylvania, Tung-Sol et alia while I bought every type of Melz I could find.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> I want to say the Ken-Rad reached the low nineties in our testing, the Bad Boy mid eighties. It had been a while since I looked at the black glass Ken Rads but I believe there are a couple versions, both close in scoring but I want to say the large letter version did a bit better. We tried to find all variations for work we did with all the 6sn7 equivalents we tried. Others specialized in Ken-Rad, Sylvania, Tung-Sol et alia while I bought every type of Melz I could find.


Large letter as in printing on the tube envelope or Base?  What about this one?:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-16861313

Do you have an example of Large vs Small lettering? Was there a correlation with the Year/Week of manufacture?

Thank you!


----------



## Paladin79

hmscott said:


> Large letter as in printing on the tube envelope or Base?  What about this one?:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-16861313
> 
> Do you have an example of Large vs Small lettering? Was there a correlation with the Year/Week of manufacture?
> ...


I will have to look around, I am in discussions with Raytheon at the moment so it could be later this afternoon. It is the actual letters for the word Ken-Rad as best I recall and those look large on the tube shown.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Did you check to be sure there aren't any etched dots on it?  🤣🤣


Yes Big time 😍😍


----------



## hmscott

Paladin79 said:


> I will have to look around, I am in discussions with Raytheon at the moment so it could be later this afternoon. It is the actual letters for the word Ken-Rad as best I recall and those look large on the tube shown.


There are even larger Letters on this example:

Kenrad 6SN7GT/VT-231 Black Glass NOS Matched Pair
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165277080948


T


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 15, 2022)

hmscott said:


> There are even larger Letters on this example:
> 
> Kenrad 6SN7GT/VT-231 Black Glass NOS Matched Pair
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/165277080948
> ...


I think I got it turned around, it has been about three years since I spent a lot of time with those. The small letter version is shown here, and it rated a bit higher. This is just before I encased eight tubes in PVC for a blind test for Sir Cowen esq.  Later i will look through my tube manuals to see if there is any designation for year.

That tube on the far left was not rated very high by Mr Cowen as I recall but it was before I discovered that many of the Russian tubes needed to have their pins re-soldered.  I pulled that tube from the PVC, re-soldered it and it became one of the highest rated tubes my friends and I tested. That is a 1956 Melz solid plate 1578, no perforations, black shiny plates. That tube caused me to try to locate more of the same type. Here is a 1958 with the same setup. At the time I was trying to win a bet with Bill about his ability to detect a GE tube from seven others. I put at least four outstanding tubes in the mix.


----------



## TLO

Paladin79 said:


> I think I got it turned around, it has been about three years since I spent a lot of time with those. The small letter version is shown here, and it rated a bit higher. This is just before I encased eight tubes in PVC for a blind test for Sir Cowen esq.  Later i will look through my tube manuals to see if there is any designation for year.
> 
> That tube on the far left was not rated very high by Mr Cowen as I recall but it was before I discovered that many of the Russian tubes needed to have their pins re-soldered.  I pulled that tube from the PVC, re-soldered it and it became one of the highest rated tubes my friends and I tested. That is a 1956 Melz solid plate 1578, no perforations, black shiny plates. That tube caused me to try to locate more of the same type. Here is a 1958 with the same setup. At the time I was trying to win a bet with Bill about his ability to detect a GE tube from seven others. I put at least four outstanding tubes in the mix.


that KENRAD is 1944...damn, my big letter version has just dropped $100 in value....🤣


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I think I got it turned around, it has been about three years since I spent a lot of time with those. The small letter version is shown here, and it rated a bit higher. This is just before I encased eight tubes in PVC for a blind test for Sir Cowen esq.  Later i will look through my tube manuals to see if there is any designation for year.
> 
> That tube on the far left was not rated very high by Mr Cowen as I recall but it was before I discovered that many of the Russian tubes needed to have their pins re-soldered.  I pulled that tube from the PVC, re-soldered it and it became one of the highest rated tubes my friends and I tested. That is a 1956 Melz solid plate 1578, no perforations, black shiny plates. That tube caused me to try to locate more of the same type. Here is a 1958 with the same setup. At the time I was trying to win a bet with Bill about his ability to detect a GE tube from seven others. I put at least four outstanding tubes in the mix.


The KenRad that you sent with those was probably my most favorite of the bunch.  I also really liked the RCA gray glass, both of which I'd never heard before.  The Melz didn't score highly with me but I think most of that was due to the fact it was brand new and had no break-in time at all.  I should have let it play more before coming to a verdict, but that hindsight is my own fault.  😂


----------



## Paladin79

TLO said:


> that KENRAD is 1944...damn, my big letter version has just dropped $100 in value....🤣


They are close in sound lol, maybe it only dropped $99. We rated the small letter version just a bit higher and only used it in our 1500 tube study. Same with Melz, it would have been unfair to put five different versions in the study when construction was pretty similar.  When all is said and done, if you like a tube, you like it. I am involved with other blind tests this weekend but one day as Covide eases up we will go through our 52 top tubes with a large group (100 or more) and see where those tubes rank.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 15, 2022)

bcowen said:


> The KenRad that you sent with those was probably my most favorite of the bunch.  I also really liked the RCA gray glass, both of which I'd never heard before.  The Melz didn't score highly with me but I think most of that was due to the fact it was brand new and had no break-in time at all.  I should have let it play more before coming to a verdict, but that hindsight is my own fault.  😂


I cannot recall if I had done the Foton 100 hour testing back then, but you may well be right. I thought that was a cheap version of a Melz at the time and did not listen to it as much as others. Those tubes later achieved holy grail status as far as I was concerned.  

We are talking what, three years ago or more?  Maybe four lol.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> The KenRad that you sent with those was probably my most favorite of the bunch.  I also really liked the RCA gray glass, both of which I'd never heard before.  The Melz didn't score highly with me but I think most of that was due to the fact it was brand new and had no break-in time at all.  I should have let it play more before coming to a verdict, but that hindsight is my own fault.  😂


IME, I have never liked MELZ in my system. Used to have 4 pairs in my collection, just sold the last pair last week. One pair is 1956 Melz 6H8C, two pairs are 1976 Melz 1587, cant remember the last pair. I guess they dont run quite well with ECC35, KR300B and ACME 805 in LM508IA.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> The RFT's I own are decent, on a 100 point scale I would say about an 89. *I tended to use RCA grey glass* and Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass and Sylvania bad boys in my early experiments with blind tube listening as well as Foton and Melz. I sent a decent set to Jason at Schiit for one of his shootouts.





hmscott said:


> ...I'm looking for well priced NIB/new measuring RCA Grey Glass tubes, now more than ever, thanks for the heads-up...


How do these look?, sorry, only 1 photo in the listing:

6SN7GT RCA NOS GREY GLASS VALVE TUBE
Condition: New
More than 10 available / 3 sold
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265497191363


Are there particular features, makes, or years I should look for? - Thank you! 

*Update: Watch out, be warned, before buying from these guys be sure to read this and follow up posts:*
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-16865282


----------



## Paladin79

TLO said:


> IME, I have never liked MELZ in my system. Used to have 4 pairs in my collection, just sold the last pair last week. One pair is 1956 Melz 6H8C, two pairs are 1976 Melz 1587, cant remember the last pair. I guess they dont run quite well with ECC35, KR300B and ACME 805 in LM508IA.


In all fairness we are listening in amps I designed for our study. Try to put most any Russian tube in say a DarkVoice and you will get very bad results if it is the US version with no modifications. There are eight of us that did blind testing, early on when I got the 1958's I sent one around to folks on here and most all liked it as well, many of them had one of my amps but different headphones I would think.


----------



## HTSkywalker

hmscott said:


> How do these look, sorry, only 1 photo in the listing:
> 
> 6SN7GT RCA NOS GREY GLASS VALVE TUBE
> Condition: New
> ...


Fairly priced


----------



## Paladin79

hmscott said:


> How do these look, sorry, only 1 photo in the listing:
> 
> 6SN7GT RCA NOS GREY GLASS VALVE TUBE
> Condition: New
> ...


I will let others answer this one but RCA certainly used a code during the war years but I need to get back to work.


----------



## TLO (Mar 15, 2022)

hmscott said:


> How do these look?, sorry, only 1 photo in the listing:
> 
> 6SN7GT RCA NOS GREY GLASS VALVE TUBE
> Condition: New
> ...


This is the later 40's to 50's version, check the new logo. If possible, look for old meatball logo. Although, I cant say much as I only have tried the earlier 40's version but have read comments that they sound slightly different. Below is the old meatball logo during the WWII era.




RCA date code
S - 1942
K - 1943
H - 1944
V - 1945
F - 1946


----------



## paradoxper

Galapac said:


> The Chinese are notorious for never rejecting a tube short of not working. They will dump there rejects onto the secondary market where resellers snatch them up for pennies and sell on markets like eBay and AliExpress. If you go that route its best to go through a trusted seller who will pretest the tubes for you but expect to pay more for this.


I don't buy from eBay, however, it doesn't bother me as the seller will back it, and it's also part of the tube lottery. It is curious how quickly modern production technique are laughed to the side by the vintage. They did sound good but at least last 24 hours.


----------



## paradoxper

But why seldom even. This is a new mantra.


----------



## TLO (Mar 15, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> But why seldom even. This is a new mantra.


How do you like the Sophia? If you want, there is a pair of Shuguang CV181 blue glass at Yahoo Japan Auction.


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 15, 2022)

TLO said:


> How do you like the Sophia?


I'm scared to even say. Everything I like seem to have production / market woes. So I can't stock up!

I do like their strong bass punch and slight warmth reminiscent of RCA grey glass, I only worry a little in the long-term how I may not favor the top end which is a little smoothly rolled. It's kind of a parlor trick at the moment which is pleasing.

I was going to buy the Elite and now I pulled my hamstring, moving on!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Get a Panavise, I have several but then I ran my own electronics business for nearly ten years. A quality magnifier light also helps, glass lens if you can afford it.
> I still have unopened Weller and Hako soldering stations. I am a out to embark on a tenth source of income but I can still turn to electronics if ever needed.😜


DIBS!


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> The RFT's I own are decent, on a 100 point scale I would say about an 89. I tended to use RCA grey glass and Ken-Rad VT-231 black glass and Sylvania bad boys in my early experiments with blind tube listening as well as Foton and Melz. I sent a decent set to Jason at Schiit for one of his shootouts.


This is a nice confirmation. I will note them next. I need deep pockets to stock up on the MELZ 1578, so heavy hunting we go for a time.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 15, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> This is a nice confirmation. I will note them next. I need deep pockets to stock up on the MELZ 1578, so heavy hunting we go for a time.


We use 25 criteria so a tube might do well in say upper bass or timbre but lower in other areas. Any score above 80 means it is a fairly well rounded tube.


----------



## TLO

paradoxper said:


> I'm scared to even say. Everything I like seem to have production / market woes. So I can't stock up!
> 
> I do like their strong bass punch and slight warmth reminiscent of RCA grey glass, I only worry a little in the long-term how I may not favor the top end which is a little smoothly rolled. It's kind of a parlor trick at the moment which is pleasing.
> 
> I was going to buy the Elite and now I pulled my hamstring, moving on!


Very soon, you will give up the idea of going with new production tubes...😅
Luckily for me, I didnt waste money on new production tubes except 300B and 805 but straight for vintage signal tubes when I first started up. Have done a lot of research and put my trust on the old-timers' word all over the web. Yeah, they are the wise one...😆 Lots of them have gone through the same process we are experiencing now and have concluded with a very strong valid point on the facts that we cant deny. Just my opinion, it is always more advisable to go with vintage tubes for good reasons.


----------



## paradoxper

TLO said:


> Very soon, you will give up the idea of going with new production tubes...😅
> Luckily for me, I didnt waste money on new production tubes except 300B and 805 but straight for vintage signal tubes when I first started up. Have done a lot of research and put my trust on the old-timers' word all over the web. Yeah, they are the wise one...😆 Lots of them have gone through the same process we are experiencing now and have concluded with a very strong valid point on the facts that we cant deny. Just my opinion, it is always more advisable to go with vintage tubes for good reasons.


If the Sophia Blue lasts, I will stock up on them. We'll see how the replacement from Psvane fairs but yes, I'm generally inline with pursuing NOS.


----------



## musicinmymind

hmscott said:


> How do these look?, sorry, only 1 photo in the listing:
> 
> 6SN7GT RCA NOS GREY GLASS VALVE TUBE
> Condition: New
> ...



I do not trust this seller, he once send me RCA tubes which was defective and did work only one side. The replacement he sent was some junk tube which was not even 6sn7 and never received any replay from him after that.

Here at Dubai I had pay import tax two times which costed me close to $100 in total.


----------



## TLO

musicinmymind said:


> I do not trust this seller, he once send me RCA tubes which was defective and did work only one side. The replacement he sent was some junk tube which was not even 6sn7 and never received any replay from him after that.
> 
> Here at Dubai I had pay import tax two times which costed me close to $100 in total.


whoa...thanks for the warning, I would be careful. Have bought some ECC35 and ECC33 from Langrex before and all are good.


----------



## cddc

musicinmymind said:


> I do not trust this seller, he once send me RCA tubes which was defective and did work only one side. The replacement he sent was some junk tube which was not even 6sn7 and never received any replay from him after that.
> 
> Here at Dubai I had pay import tax two times which costed me close to $100 in total.




This seller yitry is actually the famous UK vendor Langrex on eBay, surprised to hear your bad experience from them. Thought they should be okay to deal with...


----------



## OctavianH

cddc said:


> This seller yitry is actually the famous UK vendor Langrex on eBay, surprised to hear your bad experience from them. Thought they should be okay to deal with...


I received also a dead Fivre 6C5G black base from him. I am not buying anymore from Langrex.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

OctavianH said:


> I received also a dead Fivre 6C5G black base from him. I am not buying anymore from Langrex.



And I received defective GEC L63s twice. Including one that tested completely dead - which explained the lack of sound. He does readily accept refunds / sends substitutes and is very friendly to deal with. But yes, I lost all confidence when I saw an "NOS" tube test dead.


----------



## paradoxper

4 MELZ perforated down. How many to go?

I'm a monster.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

musicinmymind said:


> I do not trust this seller, he once send me RCA tubes which was defective and did work only one side. The replacement he sent was some junk tube which was not even 6sn7 and never received any replay from him after that.
> 
> Here at Dubai I had pay import tax two times which costed me close to $100 in total.





cddc said:


> This seller yitry is actually the famous UK vendor Langrex on eBay, surprised to hear your bad experience from them. Thought they should be okay to deal with...





OctavianH said:


> I received also a dead Fivre 6C5G black base from him. I am not buying anymore from Langrex.





CaptainFantastic said:


> And I received defective GEC L63s twice. Including one that tested completely dead - which explained the lack of sound. He does readily accept refunds / sends substitutes and is very friendly to deal with. But yes, I lost all confidence when I saw an "NOS" tube test dead.


Wow, you know it's funny I haven't bought from them before, but their name sounded familiar, so I searched my old eBay messages and found out why I didn't buy from them before... they are the eBay seller than alerted me to the fact that the "New" in "New Old Stock" doesn't mean 100% New measuring, via 2 reply's from them from back in September 2021:

Me asking about a particular eBay Listing:
"Hi!, do you have 4 of these that test 95% Life or better?* I find that at or below that there is too much HISS in my IEM's to use them, and I actually prefer 100%+*, but 6060 Brimars "T"'s are getting hard to find? Do you have "Yellow T's"?"

Reply 1 from them:
New message from: yitry (70,199 PurpleShooting Star)

"Hi
I'm afraid not. *These test around 85% so still classed as NOS*, however do show signs of slight use.
We do not have any of the Yellow T ones.
Kind Regards"

My reply:
"Thanks for the quick reply .... 
I always thought NOS was defined as "NEW in box", and wouldn't that be New new, not 85% new? 
That's why I mention I need 100%+ to get noise free tubes for IEM's, as the NOS @ 85% sounds like a Wall of HISS 
Do you have any pair/quad of 12AU7/12AT7 or compatible tubes measuring 100%+? I am interested 
Thank you ...., Scott"

Reply 2 from them:
New message from: yitry (70,199 PurpleShooting Star)

"Hi
NOS means New Old Stock. So although they are New, *as any tube that test over 80% is classed as new*, we sell them as Grade 1, which means they still test new but do show signs of slight use.
NIB means New In Box.
We have plenty of other lovely sounding 12AT7/ECC81 tubes in our stock. Have a browse through our store.
Kind Regards"

And, he gave forth such information freely on his first answers to me upon our first contact, so I'm thinking his guidelines aren't at all unusual in the field - perhaps even the going standard of ratings, and therefore other sellers might likely rate tubes the same...

So now you know why I don't simply buy NOS, I specifically ask for new measuring 100%+/100%+, which unfortunately cost a bit more than "NOS".


----------



## Deceneu808

I've had nothing but super positive transactions with Langrex with dozens of orders and tens of tubes purchased


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

Deceneu808 said:


> I've had nothing but super positive transactions with Langrex with dozens of orders and tens of tubes purchased


I'm sure they have had many thousands of happy customer transactions; their rating is yitry (73194) 99.8% positive feedback as of right now on 73,194 sales.

And, when dealing with old tubes I think the rigors of shipping might fall out a number of them along the way - or simple mistakes of inventory aged since last tested or staff perhaps not as attentive as others filing away untested tubes.  That can create some unhappy customers, and if you get enough of those in a row, it's tough to stick with them.

My warning isn't due to a bad deal, actually he was very helpful and upfront with their wares, I'm not saying that they aren't doing a good job with what they sell, I'm simply saying their method of rating tubes for what they measure doesn't meet with my particular needs.

I can't use tubes with their NOS rating readings of 80% up, I need 95% up and prefer 100%+ measurements, and he didn't have any to offer me. So I couldn't order anything from them.


----------



## JTbbb

The recent discussions regarding Ken Rad’s has got me thinking of mine. When I was more of a tube newbe I bought and posted these asking if they were genuine, which was confirmed. With a little more knowledge now, I am wondering if these could be some of the last produced? 
They are 1948 and the code 188 is GE but there are no dots on the glass. So, could these be some of the last produced? I believe that GE took over Ken Rad in ‘45?


----------



## TLO

hmscott said:


> Wow, you know it's funny I haven't bought from them before, but their name sounded familiar, so I searched my old eBay messages and found out why i didn't buy from them before... they are the eBay seller than alerted me to the fact that the "New" in "New Old Stock" doesn't mean 100% New measuring, via 2 reply's from them from back in September 2021:
> 
> Me asking about a particular eBay Listing:
> "Hi!, do you have 4 of these that test 95% Life or better?* I find that at or below that there is too much HISS in my IEM's to use them, and I actually prefer 100%+*, but 6060 Brimars "T"'s are getting hard to find? Do you have "Yellow T's"?"
> ...


Yes, there is one thing I dont quite like Langrex though and that is their listings dont include test results.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

hmscott said:


> Wow, you know it's funny I haven't bought from them before, but their name sounded familiar, so I searched my old eBay messages and found out why I didn't buy from them before... they are the eBay seller than alerted me to the fact that the "New" in "New Old Stock" doesn't mean 100% New measuring, via 2 reply's from them from back in September 2021:
> 
> Me asking about a particular eBay Listing:
> "Hi!, do you have 4 of these that test 95% Life or better?* I find that at or below that there is too much HISS in my IEM's to use them, and I actually prefer 100%+*, but 6060 Brimars "T"'s are getting hard to find? Do you have "Yellow T's"?"
> ...





TLO said:


> Yes, there is one thing I dont quite like Langrex though and that is their listings dont include test results.


Yup, that is why I was asking him for specific results, which he knew right off the top of his head, so they do know, don't they - they simply don't list it as anything more than "NOS".

IDK really if that is better or worse than "Tested Strong"!


----------



## cddc

TLO said:


> Yes, there is one thing I dont quite like Langrex though and that is their listings dont include test results.




I never buy tubes without test results, unless they are really cheap and I take it as a gamble.


----------



## TLO (Mar 15, 2022)

I havent buy from them for quite sometime now, I think my last puchase was like almost a year ago. Btw, if you search online, you will find that there are other negative comments on them, especially saying that their customer satisfaction has gone downhill compared to the old days.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 26, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> The recent discussions regarding Ken Rad’s has got me thinking of mine. When I was more of a tube newbe I bought and posted these asking if they were genuine, which was confirmed. With a little more knowledge now, I am wondering if these could be some of the last produced?
> They are 1948 and the code 188 is GE but there are no dots on the glass. So, could these be some of the last produced? I believe that GE took over Ken Rad in ‘45?


An interesting discussion here might help: Are Kentucky made GE's really Ken Rad's?

"The EIA code of 188-5 identifies the Owensboro, KY tube factory. Until 1945 that was the original Ken-Rad factory. In 1945 GE was allowed to buy the factory, after the Federal Government stepped in to quell a labor dispute (under direct orders of Pres. Roosevelt). So GE owned the plant from 1945 onward.
The tubes that were produced there were still labeled "Ken-Rad" until about 1952. The brand was recognized for quality, so GE kept using it.
GE's Cold War ramp up in the early-'50s started with their "5-star" products, and that move ended the use of the Ken-Rad name.
So... '50s "Ken-Rad" = GE product"
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...made-ges-really-ken-rads.993874/post-11955787

"I am assuming they were made to Ken Rad specs from 1945-1952. Is this true?
If so were they still made to Ken Rad specs after 1952 when they started to be labeled GE?
...Do the post 1952 labeled GE tubes with the 188-5 EIA code = a "Ken Rad" tube?"

"I'd say "no" to that question. GE took control of engineering, and moved on from Ken-Rad designs and processes. In my experience, I've found the sonic character of various tubes from that plant to have also changed, beginning in '52 or so.
Between '45-'52, I'm sure many, if not most, of the same Ken-Rad employees continued to do their fine work, in the same manner. I'm also supposing the machining and processes remained the same as in the true Ken-Rad days."
...

More interesting discussions there...


----------



## Galapac

I used to Langerex until recently as well.

One example is this listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/310210519022?epid=22035053988&hash=item4839fcdfee:g:aCEAAOSw-mJh1vpF

They are selling these as legit Svetlana EL34's when obviously they are not.

The originals had yellow lettering and stopped production in 2011. They were one of the newer tubes of the time that were actually good.


----------



## pravous

I have received 2 doa tubes and 2 with terrible humming problems from Langrex.  They made me whole by shipping replacements but they do not inspire confidence.  It is a shame because they do seem to have a good stock of some of the rarer tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> I've had nothing but super positive transactions with Langrex with dozens of orders and tens of tubes purchased


Me too.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 15, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> We are talking what, three years ago or more?  Maybe four lol.


My memory span goes all the way back to around dinnertime last night, where I'm pretty sure I remember what I had for dinner.  But if you're talking _years,_ I'll take your word for it.


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> IME, I have never liked MELZ in my system. Used to have 4 pairs in my collection, just sold the last pair last week. One pair is 1956 Melz 6H8C, two pairs are 1976 Melz 1587, cant remember the last pair. I guess they dont run quite well with ECC35, KR300B and ACME 805 in LM508IA.


Just FWIW, I have a '56 and a '63 1578, and the '56 is audibly superior to my ears.  As well, the 1578 was not my favorite tube in the Schiit Lyr 3. Not that it sounded bad, just that I actually preferred an early '50's Foton in that amp. Fast forward to now with the Incubus amp, and the 1578 is right up there with my favorites, and even my most favorite when paired with a Tung Sol 5998 as the power tube.  Just don't tell @Paladin79 please, or I'll have to listen to incessant gloating for the foreseeable future.    😂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> My memory span goes all the way back to around dinnertime last night, where I'm pretty sure I remember what I had for dinner.  So if you're talking _years,_ I'll take your word for it.


Well it was obviously pre-Covid I believe lol.  July 2019.  Looking up the photos helped, nearly three years ago.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Just FWIW, I have a '56 and a '63 1578, and the '56 is audibly superior to my ears.  As well, the 1578 was not my favorite tube in the Schiit Lyr 3. Not that it sounded bad, just that I actually preferred an early '50's Foton in that amp. Fast forward to now with the Incubus amp, and the 1578 is right up there with my favorites, and even my most favorite when paired with a Tung Sol 5998 as the power tube.  Just don't tell @Paladin79 please, or I'll have to listen to incessant gloating for the foreseeable future.    😂


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> I've had nothing but super positive transactions with Langrex with dozens of orders and tens of tubes purchased


My experience also.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well it was obviously pre-Covid I believe lol.  July 2019.  Looking up the photos helped, nearly three years ago.


Wow.  Time flies.  I'd have never guessed it was _that_ long ago. Perhaps it's time for another bet? This time between an RCA 6AS7G and a Tung Sol 5998. Bet you a steak dinner I can identify those blind. 😂🤣😆


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wow.  Time flies.  I'd have never guessed it was _that_ long ago. Perhaps it's time for another bet? This time between an RCA 6AS7G and a Tung Sol 5998. Bet you a steak dinner I can identify those blind. 😂🤣😆


Ok I will call you, plug in some cheap headphones and lay the phone between them. Naturally I will adjust the volume so the sound levels match, you just have to guess right 99 out of 100 and you win! Naturally you will have to trust me on which tube I really have in the amp at any given time. Does the steak dinner include a large bottle of wine like the last time?  Oh and I will use a GE tube for the driver, if your ears start bleeding I win.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

Please delete


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Wow.  Time flies.  I'd have never guessed it was _that_ long ago. Perhaps it's time for another bet? This time between an RCA 6AS7G and a Tung Sol 5998. Bet you a steak dinner I can identify those blind. 😂🤣😆


Warm up with Philips ECG 6922 vs Telefunken Cca 👂👂


----------



## MacMan31

TLO said:


> I havent buy from them for quite sometime now, I think my last puchase was like almost a year ago. Btw, if you search online, you will find that there are other negative comments on them, especially saying that their customer satisfaction has gone downhill compared to the old days.



I've been wanting to buy a few more tubes from Langrex but I'm not sure which ones to get. My first and only experience with them was positive. Got my order in good time and the tubes are great.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 15, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will call you, plug in some cheap headphones and lay the phone between them. Naturally I will adjust the volume so the sound levels match, you just have to guess right 99 out of 100 and you win! Naturally you will have to trust me on which tube I really have in the amp at any given time. Does the steak dinner include a large bottle of wine like the last time?  Oh and I will use a GE tube for the driver, if your ears start bleeding I win.


If you win, I'll up the ante with champagne instead of Richards Wild Irish Rose.  Nobody can ever call me a sore loser.


----------



## rawheadjim

I was wondering if there were threads on the 6SL7, or if it's not worth considering?  My Freya+ says it is compatible with 6SL7 and 6N9S tubes, but you may have more distortion and higher output impedance.  I wouldn't mind higher output impedance since you have to crank the Freya+ to 2:00+ to reach 75db in my small listening room.  

Are 6SL7's not comparable in sound quality, or is the distortion a given?  The prices are definitely a good bit lower for tubes that _seem_ similar in other visual characteristics.  I'm not sure if they are a poor man's option who's getting into tubes at the worst possible time?


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If you win, I'll up the ante with champagne instead of Richards Wild Irish Rose.  Nobody can ever call me a sore loser.


Wow your taste is improving lol.  The waiter will not have to bring a box of wine to the table like the last time you lost.   Your test track will be Long Cold Smile by Motor Man. You should practice listening to it over and over before we begin, just so you know all the um, tonal qualities.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wow your taste is improving lol.  The waiter will not have to bring a box of wine to the table like the last time you lost.   Your test track will be Long Cold Smile by Motor Man. You should practice listening to it over and over before we begin, just so you know all the um, tonal qualities.


Oh hell no!  I get to pick the music.

This will keep me from going to sleep if you're using a GE.


----------



## Paladin79

rawheadjim said:


> I was wondering if there were threads on the 6SL7, or if it's not worth considering?  My Freya+ says it is compatible with 6SL7 and 6N9S tubes, but you may have more distortion and higher output impedance.  I wouldn't mind higher output impedance since you have to crank the Freya+ to 2:00+ to reach 75db in my small listening room.
> 
> Are 6SL7's not comparable in sound quality, or is the distortion a given?  The prices are definitely a good bit lower for tubes that _seem_ similar in other visual characteristics.  I'm not sure if they are a poor man's option who's getting into tubes at the worst possible time?


Hmm, I should have read the owners manual lol. I have some I can check out but it will not be for a week or more. I am in the middle of a blind study involving $200 fuses and need to concentrate on that for a bit.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> Oh hell no!  I get to pick the music.
> 
> This will keep me from going to sleep if you're using a GE.



Written by Benny Andersson and Bjorn Ulveus of ABBA.


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> I was wondering if there were threads on the 6SL7, or if it's not worth considering?  My Freya+ says it is compatible with 6SL7 and 6N9S tubes, but you may have more distortion and higher output impedance.  I wouldn't mind higher output impedance since you have to crank the Freya+ to 2:00+ to reach 75db in my small listening room.
> 
> Are 6SL7's not comparable in sound quality, or is the distortion a given?  The prices are definitely a good bit lower for tubes that _seem_ similar in other visual characteristics.  I'm not sure if they are a poor man's option who's getting into tubes at the worst possible time?


6SL7's are not necessarily inferior.  There were some extremely good ones made, like the wartime Sylvania VT-229 and the RCA 5691.  The 6SL7 has 3.5x the gain of a 6SN7. May work fine in some amps, but may not in others -- depends on the topology.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Hmm, I should have read the owners manual lol. I have some I can check out but it will not be for a week or more. I am in the middle of a blind study involving $200 fuses and need to concentrate on that for a bit.


I recall that info in the owner's manual also, although I don't understand why you would put a high gain tube in a circuit designed for a low gain tube. Also, having the output impedance increase will not increase the output voltage.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Written by Benny Andersson and Bjorn Ulveus of ABBA.


I did not know that.  Thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh hell no!  I get to pick the music.
> 
> This will keep me from going to sleep if you're using a GE.



LOL, now I know how you select your music.   How about a nice song that goes well with Texas bar-b-cue instead.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> I did not know that.  Thanks!


It was a song from the musical play Chess, by Tim Rice, Benny Anderson, and Bjorn Ulvaeus. It played in London for many years.


----------



## JTbbb

MacMan31 said:


> I've been wanting to buy a few more tubes from Langrex but I'm not sure which ones to get. My first and only experience with them was positive. Got my order in good time and the tubes are great.


What tubes are you looking for?


----------



## bcowen (Mar 15, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> LOL, now I know how you select your music.   How about a nice song that goes well with Texas bar-b-cue instead.



Texas BBQ?  Then the band should have been named "A-Spew At The Wheel."  😂


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Texas BBQ?  Then it should have been titled "A-Spewing At The Wheel."  😂


Texas barfbecue…🤮…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Texas barfbecue…🤮…


🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## TLO (Mar 15, 2022)

MacMan31 said:


> I've been wanting to buy a few more tubes from Langrex but I'm not sure which ones to get. My first and only experience with them was positive. Got my order in good time and the tubes are great.


Well, just my own opinion...I dont determine how good a seller or business is by looking at how many happy customers but by how many unhappy customers it has.
Anyway, I have just checked my past record at Ebay, I have bought 2 pairs of Mullard ECC35, 1 pair of Mullard ECC33 and 1 pair of Brimar 6SL7GT from them, all checked and tested good near or above 100% emission.


----------



## rawheadjim

I'm just looking for affordable options since the manual says they are compatible, while trying to get into tubes when prices are at the highest ever and increasing almost exponentially.  Getting one pair of almost any of the higher rated vintage tubes is difficult, time consuming, risky, and expensive.  Having a full quad set or backups once I find what sounds best in my system will add more to the cost.  I haven't found much information on 6SL7's which concerns me, but heard they can be warmer sounding depending on the gear.  They seem to be 1/2 the cost of 6SN7's on average, sometimes even 1/3 or less.


----------



## TLO

rawheadjim said:


> I'm just looking for affordable options since the manual says they are compatible, while trying to get into tubes when prices are at the highest ever and increasing almost exponentially.  Getting one pair of almost any of the higher rated vintage tubes is difficult, time consuming, risky, and expensive.  Having a full quad set or backups once I find what sounds best in my system will add more to the cost.  I haven't found much information on 6SL7's which concerns me, but heard they can be warmer sounding depending on the gear.  They seem to be 1/2 the cost of 6SN7's on average, sometimes even 1/3 or less.


ATM that come to mind, if you want good and still reasonably priced tubes, your best bet now is look for TS 6C8G (black glass round plate). Adapter required.


----------



## paradoxper

rawheadjim said:


> I'm just looking for affordable options since the manual says they are compatible, while trying to get into tubes when prices are at the highest ever and increasing almost exponentially.  Getting one pair of almost any of the higher rated vintage tubes is difficult, time consuming, risky, and expensive.  Having a full quad set or backups once I find what sounds best in my system will add more to the cost.  I haven't found much information on 6SL7's which concerns me, but heard they can be warmer sounding depending on the gear.  They seem to be 1/2 the cost of 6SN7's on average, sometimes even 1/3 or less.


Let's play. I briefly looked at the 6SL7 but due to higher gain it became a sticking point of rather not bother with the fuss. However, dwindling down target sound and succeeding with the hunt, I am open to fiddle with the fickle.

Additionally, make your pick, I'll send you a pair of Ken-Rad and you can compare and decide what's right for you.


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> I'm just looking for affordable options since the manual says they are compatible, while trying to get into tubes when prices are at the highest ever and increasing almost exponentially.  Getting one pair of almost any of the higher rated vintage tubes is difficult, time consuming, risky, and expensive.  Having a full quad set or backups once I find what sounds best in my system will add more to the cost.  I haven't found much information on 6SL7's which concerns me, but heard they can be warmer sounding depending on the gear.  They seem to be 1/2 the cost of 6SN7's on average, sometimes even 1/3 or less.


20+ years ago 6SL7's were as popular as 6SN7's.  Prices were roughly equivalent between them. Then for whatever reason they seemed to fall out of favor with most component manufacturers jumping on the 6SN7 train.  They are one of the few NOS tube types that I probably couldn't sell now for what I paid for them back then. If the component is designed for them they are no "less good" (generally speaking) than a 6SN7, there's just less demand which is mostly what's driving the price disparity with the 6SN7. 

Since the Freya+ can use them, you might try a pair and see what they do to the overall sound. If it's to your liking, then it might be worthwhile to experiment with different brands/vintage for final tuning.


----------



## paradoxper

Tube Doom 2022: anyone else shocked by the response of the audiophile stockpiling as a madman? Viva, Upscale, etc etc have shut down their orders due to influx. LMAO.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> Tube Doom 2022: anyone else shocked by the response of the audiophile stockpiling as a madman? Viva, Upscale, etc etc have shut down their orders due to influx. LMAO.


LOL!  And all these years I've been accused of hoarding when I was really just pre-planning for a supply disruption.  🤣


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> 20+ years ago 6SL7's were as popular as 6SN7's.  Prices were roughly equivalent between them. Then for whatever reason they seemed to fall out of favor with most component manufacturers jumping on the 6SN7 train.  They are one of the few NOS tube types that I probably couldn't sell now for what I paid for them back then. If the component is designed for them they are no "less good" (generally speaking) than a 6SN7, there's just less demand which is mostly what's driving the price disparity with the 6SN7.
> 
> Since the Freya+ can use them, you might try a pair and see what they do to the overall sound. If it's to your liking, then it might be worthwhile to experiment with different brands/vintage for final tuning.




I think one possibility is that 6SN7 offers so much variety and no other tube types can match up. 

Another reason I can think of is that 6SL7 is a high gain tube, and high gain tubes tend to be noisier than mid- / low-gain tubes. And 6SN7 is known for its excellent linearity and low noise.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> LOL!  And all these years I've been accused of hoarding when I was really just pre-planning for a supply disruption.  🤣


Who knew the end of the world could be so much fun.


----------



## cddc

paradoxper said:


> Tube Doom 2022: anyone else shocked by the response of the audiophile stockpiling as a madman? Viva, Upscale, etc etc have shut down their orders due to influx. LMAO.




Surprised to hear that. I guess they are trying to figure out how many Russian new production tubes they still have in stock (so that they won't oversell), otherwise the NOS tube market shouldn't be affected by that much, I think.


----------



## JKDJedi

hmscott said:


> How do you feel these days about NOS GTB's vs new reissue GTB's?...Beyond the blockade for new Russia products making it tough to find them
> 
> Should I pick up some new Russia reissues before current stock sells out?, or is it better to pick up some NOS GTB's?
> 
> ...


My stance has changed since that post ...I was really wet behind the ears then. Get NOS whenever or wherever possible.


----------



## jonathan c

JKDJedi said:


> My stance has changed since that post ...I was really wet behind the ears then. Get NOS whenever or wherever possible.


…you left out ‘however possible’…😂😏…


----------



## paradoxper

cddc said:


> Surprised to hear that. I guess they are trying to figure out how many Russian new production tubes they still have in stock (so that they won't oversell), otherwise the NOS tube market shouldn't be affected by that much, I think.


That is the hope. LOL


----------



## paradoxper

I have a real problem.

I picked up six MELZ 1578 perforated plate today. Call it ambition. Ha.

I decided I know the MELZ variant quite well and picked up a pair of the 1579, so let's roll RHJ.


----------



## hmscott

paradoxper said:


> I have a real problem.
> 
> I picked up six MELZ 1578 perforated plate today. Call it ambition. Ha.
> 
> I decided I know the MELZ variant quite well and picked up a pair of the 1579, so let's roll RHJ.


Congratulations!! quite a feat at this time with so many sellers blocked or..., so which country did the seller come from this time?


----------



## paradoxper

hmscott said:


> Congratulations!! quite a feat at this time with so many sellers blocked or..., so which country did the seller come from this time?


I don't know if congratulations is the word for it. 

Ukraine and Georgia.


----------



## Galapac

paradoxper said:


> Tube Doom 2022: anyone else shocked by the response of the audiophile stockpiling as a madman? Viva, Upscale, etc etc have shut down their orders due to influx. LMAO.


I’ve also noticed that not many sellers want to deal right now. 
I’ve had many offers rejected and it’s not that I’m shooting offers too low, (many $10 less) it’s just that they know many are willing to pay more than I am willing to.
I guess it’s time I look through my stash and see what’s there…


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> I’ve also noticed that not many sellers want to deal right now.
> I’ve had many offers rejected and it’s not that I’m shooting offers too low, (many $10 less) it’s just that they know many are willing to pay more than I am willing to.
> I guess it’s time I look through my stash and see what’s there…


Maybe I am thinking of someone else but did I not resolder some tube pins for you a while back? If so you certainly have some fine tubes.😜


----------



## DougD

Galapac said:


> I’ve also noticed that not many sellers want to deal right now.
> I’ve had many offers rejected and it’s not that I’m shooting offers too low, (many $10 less) it’s just that they know many are willing to pay more than I am willing to.
> I guess it’s time I look through my stash and see what’s there…


I'm thinking it's a bad time to be at a place on the path where one knows he/she needs to go tube in a fairly serious way for the next step up, as the vast majority of the upper tier tubes seem to have been locked up by the already-knowledgeable. Becoming educated on tubes is going to be much more difficult, and much more expensive, going forward. 

For those of you with substantial holdings, consider adding a "tube distribution list" to your will. 

(PM me if you need my address and full name for inclusion in any legal documents.)


----------



## jonathan c

DougD said:


> I'm thinking it's a bad time to be at a place on the path where one knows he/she needs to go tube in a fairly serious way for the next step up, as the vast majority of the upper tier tubes seem to have been locked up by the already-knowledgeable. Becoming educated on tubes is going to be much more difficult, and much more expensive, going forward.
> 
> For those of you with substantial holdings, consider adding a "tube distribution list" to your will.


“…being of sound mind, this being my last will and test filament…”🤪


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> I have a real problem.
> 
> I picked up six MELZ 1578 perforated plate today. Call it ambition. Ha.
> 
> I decided I know the MELZ variant quite well and picked up a pair of the 1579, so let's roll RHJ.


And there's always these if you want to get creative.    

https://www.ebay.com/itm/402923717194?hash=item5dd020024a:g:4esAAOSwT5tgyT1A


----------



## bcowen

DougD said:


> I'm thinking it's a bad time to be at a place on the path where one knows he/she needs to go tube in a fairly serious way for the next step up, as the vast majority of the upper tier tubes seem to have been locked up by the already-knowledgeable. Becoming educated on tubes is going to be much more difficult, and much more expensive, going forward.
> 
> For those of you with substantial holdings, consider adding a "tube distribution list" to your will.
> 
> (PM me if you need my address and full name for inclusion in any legal documents.)


🤣🤣🤣🤣

Perhaps we need a 'tube donor' box on our driver's license in addition to organ donor (I'm already going to donate my Baldwin).  😆


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> And there's always these if you want to get creative.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/402923717194?hash=item5dd020024a:g:4esAAOSwT5tgyT1A


Christ. I was going to say if they are MELZ to be cheeky. What can't MELZ do.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> Christ. I was going to say if they are MELZ to be cheeky. What can't MELZ do.


Well, there is _one_ thing.  But since this is a family friendly forum....  😂


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> Maybe I am thinking of someone else but did I not resolder some tube pins for you a while back? If so you certainly have some fine tubes.😜


Not me but you taught me how to do it (solder the pins).
I was the guy where one of your Incubus’s took a pit stop at my house for a day.
There was a loose RCA connection I believe but I had no soldering experience then.
A lot has changed in a few short years.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> Well, there is _one_ thing. But since this is a family friendly forum.... 😂


Remember, it is the end of the ****ing world. Go on. Please. 🤣


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> Not me but you taught me how to do it (solder the pins).
> I was the guy where one of your Incubus’s took a pit stop at my house for a day.
> There was a loose RCA connection I believe but I had no soldering experience then.
> A lot has changed in a few short years.


Ah ok, now I recall.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Well, there is _one_ thing. But since this is a family friendly forum.... 😂


…there wouldn’t be family without that one thing…🤣🤣…


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 16, 2022)

DougD said:


> For those of you with substantial holdings, consider adding a "tube distribution list" to your will.


That distribution would occur on a LIFO (lousiest in, first out) basis - primarily with ECGs and GEs. Why? Because the date-of-death valuations, even with Russian tube supply stasis, will be far less than acquisition values ==> no estate tax / no transfer tax 😅😅😅…


----------



## JKDJedi

DougD said:


> I'm thinking it's a bad time to be at a place on the path where one knows he/she needs to go tube in a fairly serious way for the next step up, as the vast majority of the upper tier tubes seem to have been locked up by the already-knowledgeable. Becoming educated on tubes is going to be much more difficult, and much more expensive, going forward.
> 
> For those of you with substantial holdings, consider adding a "tube distribution list" to your will.
> 
> (PM me if you need my address and full name for inclusion in any legal documents.)





bcowen said:


> 🤣🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Perhaps we need a 'tube donor' box on our driver's license in addition to organ donor (I'm already going to donate my Baldwin).  😆


HAH!


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Wow.  Time flies.  I'd have never guessed it was _that_ long ago. Perhaps it's time for another bet? This time between an RCA 6AS7G and a Tung Sol 5998. Bet you a steak dinner I can identify those blind. 😂🤣😆


Go for the T-Bone so @Paladin79 won't forget it soon 😁


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Ok I will call you, plug in some cheap headphones and lay the phone between them. Naturally I will adjust the volume so the sound levels match, you just have to guess right 99 out of 100 and you win! Naturally you will have to trust me on which tube I really have in the amp at any given time. Does the steak dinner include a large bottle of wine like the last time?  Oh and I will use a GE tube for the driver, if your ears start bleeding I win.


I would ask for external observers in that case before entering the bet


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> If you win, I'll up the ante with champagne instead of Richards Wild Irish Rose.  Nobody can ever call me a sore loser.


Go for the cardboard ones, even cheaper lol 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  And all these years I've been accused of hoarding when I was really just pre-planning for a supply disruption.  🤣


Exactly and now it happened with Russian  manufactured tubes 😃😃
You saw that coming


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> …you left out ‘however possible’…😂😏…


🤐🤐🤐


----------



## HTSkywalker

paradoxper said:


> I don't know if congratulations is the word for it.
> 
> Ukraine and Georgia.


Did you actually receive them ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Well, there is _one_ thing. But since this is a family friendly forum.... 😂


Well........🙄🙄


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Go for the T-Bone so @Paladin79 won't forget it soon 😁


First he would have to win the bet, I try to make sure I have a decent chance of winning.


 I once accepted a bet and had to make four cuts in a deck of cards and reveal the four aces, someone else shuffled the deck the entire time then just handed it to me for each cut. It took about a month of work but I figured out how it could be done and won the bet. Without practice I can most likely only get three out of four right now, the fourth ace gets difficult. Others provided the standard deck of cards, no card was marked or nicked. I also used a one handed cut so the deck was more visible at all times. I just had to hope an ace did not end up on the very top or the very bottom of the deck.


----------



## paradoxper

HTSkywalker said:


> Did you actually receive them ?


They were only just purchased yesterday. Let's see what other world-crisis we need overcome.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> Remember, it is the end of the ****ing world. Go on. Please. 🤣


LOL!  I'll have to defer to my friend @Ripper2860 who is far more, um, _adept_ at describing these things.  😂


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> They were only just purchased yesterday. Let's see what other world-crisis we need overcome.


Hopefully all will go well. I am sending out some Russian tubes to US friends today and I hope to send Schiit Coaster amp parts to Canada if I can get through customs easily.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Hopefully all will go well. I am sending out some Russian tubes to US friends today and I hope to send Schiit Coaster amp parts to Canada if I can get through customs easily.


Customs shouldn't be an issue. CBSA is only concerned about grabbing every penny they feel they're entitled to - it'll clear, but it'll cost ya


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> Customs shouldn't be an issue. CBSA is only concerned about grabbing every penny they feel they're entitled to - it'll clear, but it'll cost ya


I just noticed that lol. Shipping and possible customs charges cost more than the value of the parts lol. 

No good deed goes unpunished.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 16, 2022)

Well this certainly explains why Russian tubes are getting harder to buy.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Customs shouldn't be an issue. CBSA is only concerned about grabbing every penny they feel they're entitled to - it'll clear, but it'll cost ya


I thought _everything _that shipped from the US to Canada had a $1 value.  No?  🤣🤣


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> I thought _everything _that shipped from the US to Canada had a $1 value. No? 🤣


I thought it is $0.99...🤣


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I'll have to defer to my friend @Ripper2860 who is far more, um, _adept_ at describing these things. 😂


Oh, I can't wait to hear this adeptation in all its fine detail.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> Hopefully all will go well. I am sending out some Russian tubes to US friends today and I hope to send Schiit Coaster amp parts to Canada if I can get through customs easily.


I can't worry about things out of my control. So just, you know, go with the flow, enjoy life. You'll surely get bent over, don't resist.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> I can't worry about things out of my control. So just, you know, go with the flow, enjoy life. You'll surely get bent over, don't resist.


That sounds like another take on the "If rape is inevitable......" quote lol.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> That sounds like another take on the "If rape is inevitable......" quote lol.


PASS. 
🤣


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 16, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Oh, I can't wait to hear this adeptation in all its fine detail.


I am certainly not an expert on politics or the current state of the World, however I believe it is safe to say that while it is not yet 'The End', our time on this glorious blue orb is rapidly swirling past the urinal cake of time and is perilously close to being sucked into the Universe's Kohler black hole.


----------



## paradoxper

Ripper2860 said:


> I am certainly not an expert on politics or the current state of the World, however I believe it is safe to say that while it is not yet 'The End', our time on this glorious blue orb is rapidly swirling past the urinal cake of time and is perilously close to being sucked into the Universe's Kohler black hole.


That is just arbitrarily transcendental means of time travel.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll see you on the other side.


----------



## paradoxper

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll see you on the other side.


Pick a time.


----------



## Ripper2860

Time is just a construct and does not actually exist, so I'll just see you when I see you.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> I thought _everything _that shipped from the US to Canada had a $1 value. No? 🤣🤣


Actually, that's China. Literally everything I've bought on AE had a declared value of $10.
When I needed to send my 400i back for warranty (NY) they told me to only declare the value at $20. Most business in the US are pretty stringent about not under-valuing their shipments anymore - dunno if there was some sort of crack down, but a lot of places will get a bit pissed if you even ask about doing it


----------



## paradoxper

Ripper2860 said:


> Time is just a construct and does not actually exist, so I'll just see you when I see you.


Find me by the sun, moon, and the stars.


----------



## rawheadjim

paradoxper said:


> I have a real problem.
> 
> I picked up six MELZ 1578 perforated plate today. Call it ambition. Ha.
> 
> I decided I know the MELZ variant quite well and picked up a pair of the 1579, so let's roll RHJ.


I had to go into the office rather than working from home today so I'm way behind here!  It sounds like 6SN7's probably have many more advantages over 6SL7's, so that's why they fell out of favor over time. That and the huge variety of used and NOS 6SN7's to choose from, made it the tube of choice.  

Given their low price in these crazy tube market conditions, I would like to give some 6SL7's a chance to see if they seem worth pursuing.  Let me know what you are thinking if you have some extras to sell paradoxper, I will go ahead and order at least one quad set off ebay.  I'm sure you HAVE to use 4 6SL7's and should never mix a pair of them on one side, with a pair of 6SN7's in the other side.  The Freya+ manual is very brief, but it does say "all tubes are of the same type on Freya" so it takes 4 to tango.


----------



## paradoxper

rawheadjim said:


> I had to go into the office rather than working from home today so I'm way behind here!  It sounds like 6SN7's probably have many more advantages over 6SL7's, so that's why they fell out of favor over time. That and the huge variety of used and NOS 6SN7's to choose from, made it the tube of choice.
> 
> Given their low price in these crazy tube market conditions, I would like to give some 6SL7's a chance to see if they seem worth pursuing.  Let me know what you are thinking if you have some extras to sell paradoxper, I will go ahead and order at least one quad set off ebay.  I'm sure you HAVE to use 4 6SL7's and should never mix a pair of them on one side, with a pair of 6SN7's in the other side.  The Freya+ manual is very brief, but it does say "all tubes are of the same type on Freya" so it takes 4 to tango.


I'll probably send them to you. Outside of the RAAL SR1a which I use a separate custom direct-drive amp for, I haven't nailed down tube sets for use. Both my 1266 TC and Valkyria complement use the MELZ 1578 and I rather not have unused stock of tubes sitting. Who knew how much room the MELZ took.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> I just noticed that lol. Shipping and possible customs charges cost more than the value of the parts lol.
> 
> No good deed goes unpunished.


What's the deal with those coasters anyhow?
I mean, I know what they are and that they were never intended to be the highest of fi, but after seeing how folks have modded the DV out of those amps, any such potential for the coasters? Caps bigger than the PCB? Stepped attenuators? Fully discrete class A output?


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 16, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> What's the deal with those coasters anyhow?
> I mean, I know what they are and that they were never intended to be the highest of fi, but after seeing how folks have modded the DV out of those amps, any such potential for the coasters? Caps bigger than the PCB? Stepped attenuators? Fully discrete class A output?


Because they consist of a round PC board that allows for little modification, I cannot imagine trying to change one.😀
There are reasons people modded the DV, if you ever heard one you would know why.😜

If you want to mod something I suggest a Bottlehead Crack. They are decent sounding in their basic form and upgrading the components can certainly help. I had all my changes worked out in my mind prior to receiving a kit. My first iteration is on the right.


----------



## pravous

Mr Trev said:


> What's the deal with those coasters anyhow?
> I mean, I know what they are and that they were never intended to be the highest of fi, but after seeing how folks have modded the DV out of those amps, any such potential for the coasters? Caps bigger than the PCB? Stepped attenuators? Fully discrete class A output?


Might have to steal the caps out of the Airmid to swap into the coaster 



Here is a picture to give you an idea of the sizes involved!


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Because they consist of a round PC board that allows for little modification, I cannot imagine trying to change one.😀
> There are reasons people modded the DV, if you ever heard one you would know why.😜
> 
> If you want to mod something I suggest a Bottlehead Crack. They are decent sounding in their basic form and upgrading the components can certainly help. I had all my changes worked out in my mind prior to receiving a kit. My first iteration is on the right.


I would consider it except… planars


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> First he would have to win the bet, I try to make sure I have a decent chance of winning.
> 
> 
> I once accepted a bet and had to make four cuts in a deck of cards and reveal the four aces, someone else shuffled the deck the entire time then just handed it to me for each cut. It took about a month of work but I figured out how it could be done and won the bet. Without practice I can most likely only get three out of four right now, the fourth ace gets difficult. Others provided the standard deck of cards, no card was marked or nicked. I also used a one handed cut so the deck was more visible at all times. I just had to hope an ace did not end up on the very top or the very bottom of the deck.


I also make sure to enter safe and secure bets till the point that no one bets with me anymore 😃😃


----------



## HTSkywalker

paradoxper said:


> They were only just purchased yesterday. Let's see what other world-crisis we need overcome.


🤞🤞


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I thought _everything _that shipped from the US to Canada had a $1 value.  No?  🤣🤣


"a declared $1 value" 😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

paradoxper said:


> I can't worry about things out of my control. So just, you know, go with the flow, enjoy life. You'll surely get bent over, don't resist.


Good approach and happy landings 👍👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mr Trev said:


> I would consider it except… planars


Never with planars


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I am certainly not an expert on politics or the current state of the World, however I believe it is safe to say that while it is not yet 'The End', our time on this glorious blue orb is rapidly swirling past the urinal cake of time and is perilously close to being sucked into the Universe's Kohler black hole.


Well, this is exactly what I was not expecting.  Shrugs.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah.  But then there's always tomorrow!


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> I thought _everything _that shipped from the US to Canada had a $1 value. No? 🤣🤣


Declared value of $20 or under is fine


----------



## leftside

Mr Trev said:


> Actually, that's China. Literally everything I've bought on AE had a declared value of $10.
> When I needed to send my 400i back for warranty (NY) they told me to only declare the value at $20. Most business in the US are pretty stringent about not under-valuing their shipments anymore - dunno if there was some sort of crack down, but a lot of places will get a bit pissed if you even ask about doing it


The Chinese are great sellers to deal with. They always try and help me out with lowering costs.


----------



## leftside

rawheadjim said:


> I had to go into the office rather than working from home today so I'm way behind here!  It sounds like 6SN7's probably have many more advantages over 6SL7's, so that's why they fell out of favor over time. That and the huge variety of used and NOS 6SN7's to choose from, made it the tube of choice.
> 
> Given their low price in these crazy tube market conditions, I would like to give some 6SL7's a chance to see if they seem worth pursuing.  Let me know what you are thinking if you have some extras to sell paradoxper, I will go ahead and order at least one quad set off ebay.  I'm sure you HAVE to use 4 6SL7's and should never mix a pair of them on one side, with a pair of 6SN7's in the other side.  The Freya+ manual is very brief, but it does say "all tubes are of the same type on Freya" so it takes 4 to tango.


Check out Mullard ECC35 (6SL7 equivalent). There are some great 6SL7 out there.


----------



## HTSkywalker

leftside said:


> The Chinese are great sellers to deal with. They always try and help me out with lowering costs.


True and they even follow-up with their customs if shipments got stuck due to under declared values 👍


----------



## hmscott (Mar 17, 2022)

Some posts and videos covering the recent rush to buy tubes...IDK why they posted it in a long dormant thread?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/tube-rolling.649783/post-16868832


----------



## paradoxper

Excess


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> Excess


There's no such thing as too many Melz.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as too many Melz.


This I can't unknow. 😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> There's no such thing as too many Melz.


The more the merrier 😍😍


----------



## mayurs

HTSkywalker said:


> The more the merrier 😍😍


what's a good source to get these Melz tubes?


----------



## HTSkywalker

mayurs said:


> what's a good source to get these Melz tubes?


Used to be Russian dealers, not sure it's an available option anymore but the expert on this is @Paladin79


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Used to be Russian dealers, not sure it's an available option anymore but the expert on this is @Paladin79


There are some Melz coming out of Romania and Ukraine but I have not tried them yet. I own a lifetime worth of Melz so I may not be tube shopping for quite a while.


----------



## Deceneu808

Paladin79 said:


> There are some Melz coming out of Romania and Ukraine but I have not tried them yet. I own a lifetime worth of Melz so I may not be tube shopping for quite a while.


Melz is not that hard to find but finding the right ones given the current conditions takes a Marksman to hit right.


----------



## Paladin79

Deceneu808 said:


> Melz is not that hard to find but finding the right ones given the current conditions takes a Marksman to hit right.


You are fortunate to be in a country that still has some Melz it appears.


----------



## HTSkywalker

At this point in time only a Melz "major" 🤐 stocker could rectify the demands 🙄🙄🙄


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> There are some Melz coming out of Romania and Ukraine but I have not tried them yet. I own a lifetime worth of Melz so I may not be tube shopping for quite a while.


Paladin 79 is a major contributor to the Melz shortage.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Paladin 79 is a major contributor to the Melz shortage.


I have been known to donate them to deserving people!!! Even @bcowen. I included two with an Incubus amp just today.


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> Paladin 79 is *the* major contributor to the Melz shortage.


FTFY.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 21, 2022)

sam6550a said:


> Paladin 79 is *the* major contributor to the Melz shortage.


FTFY / (FTFY)…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> FTFY / (FTFY)…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


Lol I tried to get others interested but they wanted Fotons or some such.😀 Now the demand is increasing and supply is low.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I tried to get others interested but they wanted Fotons or some such.😀 Now the demand is increasing and supply is low.


A thermionic version of 🎼 finders, keepers…🎵…🤣…


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I tried to get others interested but they wanted Fotons or some such.😀 Now the demand is increasing and supply is low.


Fotons ??? I wonder who ??? 🙄🙄🙄


----------



## paradoxper

mayurs said:


> what's a good source to get these Melz tubes?


There are a couple good sellers in Ukraine now coming back to market. There is a very good seller in Italy whom enjoys making a pretty buck. If you are looking to just buy a pair and call it a day, pay the price -- if you're looking to stock up, you'll bleed either way.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> There are some Melz coming out of Romania and Ukraine but I have not tried them yet. I own a lifetime worth of Melz so I may not be tube shopping for quite a while.


What's a lifetime number. Ha. I'm closing on 20 pairs and feel fulfilled to my death date.


----------



## jonathan c

paradoxper said:


> There are a couple good sellers in Ukraine now coming back to market. There is a very good seller in Italy** who enjoys making a pretty buck. If you are looking to just buy a pair and call it a day, pay the price -- if you're looking to stock up, you'll bleed either way.


** I hope 😲 neither wege_high_tubes nor cartago_delenda_est…😏…


----------



## paradoxper




----------



## HTSkywalker

paradoxper said:


> There are a couple good sellers in Ukraine now coming back to market. There is a very good seller in Italy whom enjoys making a pretty buck. If you are looking to just buy a pair and call it a day, pay the price -- if you're looking to stock up, you'll bleed either way.


Any chance you can share the Italy based seller.


----------



## paradoxper (Mar 22, 2022)

HTSkywalker said:


> Any chance you can share the Italy based seller.


You got it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/193644698681?hash=item2d161f9c39:g:cdQAAOSwZdBfThPu
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165349402719?hash=item267f97a85f:g:lH8AAOSwer9iFEo7


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> What's a lifetime number. Ha. I'm closing on 20 pairs and feel fulfilled to my death date.


It depends on which pairs. The tubes you posted by the Italian seller are what I consider to be comparable to Fotons and should be sold for $25 each or thereabouts. As I believe you pointed out the good ones are pretty rare, even before the war in Ukraine Russian sellers were trying to pass off other Melz for 1578 prices. I have been looking long enough to have found many great Melz for $25-$35, those days are over. I own most every year and type I want to own, I gave away four in the last two weeks because I had duplicates.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> It depends on which pairs. The tubes you posted by the Italian seller are what I consider to be comparable to Fotons and should be sold for $25 each or thereabouts. As I believe you pointed out the good ones are pretty rare, even before the war in Ukraine Russian sellers were trying to pass off other Melz for 1578 prices. I have been looking long enough to have found many great Melz for $25-$35, those days are over. I own most every year and type I want to own, I gave away four in the last two weeks because I had duplicates.


Within distinction, I only reference the MELZ 1578 perforated plate.

For context, from 2010-2020, the perforated plates dictated about $100 pair up to $300 nominally. Artificial inflation is responsible for the near doubling market price.

You won't find perforated gold any longer, no matter I will buy them all.

I would only encourage you aren't swindled into fakes or less equivalents.


----------



## HTSkywalker

paradoxper said:


> You got it.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/193644698681?hash=item2d161f9c39:g:cdQAAOSwZdBfThPu
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/165349402719?hash=item267f97a85f:g:lH8AAOSwer9iFEo7


thanks 👍


----------



## paradoxper

HTSkywalker said:


> thanks 👍


My friend based in Ukraine has also returned and I will share his listings when official and he clarifies his current stock.

He has offered nominal market price for the perforated unlike Han whom is a great seller but exceptionally on the exorbitant side.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Within distinction, I only reference the MELZ 1578 perforated plate.
> 
> For context, from 2010-2020, the perforated plates dictated about $100 pair up to $300 nominally. Artificial inflation is responsible for the near doubling market price.
> 
> ...


I spoke specifically about this reference..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193644698681?hash=item2d161f9c39:g:cdQAAOSwZdBfThPu

I can still get perforated plates but it will take longer. I own the years I prefer, and I have completed my sets of solid plate 1578 style Melz. I know my sellers and I know the tubes. Now if you want to say the solid plate Melz is not a great tube, I sent some early ones I found to folks on here who heard them and know them.   I have done blind tests and those were at or near the top of over 1500 tube types my local group tried, even slightly ahead of perforated plates.

What I pay and what others pay are very different dollar amounts, I have spent my career in electronics and there are perks.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> I spoke specifically about this reference..
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/193644698681?hash=item2d161f9c39:g:cdQAAOSwZdBfThPu
> 
> ...


The context is that seller is one of few selling MELZ 1578 of which I've acquired perforated from him during times of dwindling stock.
It also further demonstrates how crazy the market has become in just a short time.

However, I've heard it all and it's quite clear how special the 1578 perforated are although everyone has their favorites.

I will share the resource as I have always done as I don't operate with budget constraints.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> You got it.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/193644698681?hash=item2d161f9c39:g:cdQAAOSwZdBfThPu
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/165349402719?hash=item267f97a85f:g:lH8AAOSwer9iFEo7


I'm amused with i'm_high_tubes trying to get $750 for four regular Melz 6N8S's.  Maybe a good time to sell mine.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm amused with i'm_high_tubes trying to get $750 for four regular Melz 6N8S's.  Maybe a good time to sell mine.


LOL I know. I try to give those away when people are not looking too closely at what I send them. I hope that was not a perforated plate I sent you last time.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LOL I know. I try to give those away when people are not looking too closely at what I send them. I hope that was not a perforated plate I sent you last time.


Sorry, but I looked.  Just hope you don’t look too closely and see Philips ECG  if I send you some 12AU7’s.  I will endeavor to be thorough in my relabeling efforts.


----------



## Deleeh

Yes, the Italian is also such a cutthroat when it comes to tubes, unfortunately.
This is not only the case with Melz or Foton, but also with other tube families.
He wanted 180€ for a 6SN7 Fivre and could have had the same set for 100€.
But then I decided on a Japanese one, which was good.

The price for the Fotons has also risen slightly or is harder to find, I have seen.
I am impressed with the first pair and how good they are.
They can be really snotty depending on the pairing, or incredibly analogue.
It's kind of the only tube so far that reveals different character traits.
I'm going to buy some more of these bipolar tubes when I get the chance.😁


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> What's a lifetime number. Ha. I'm closing on 20 pairs and feel fulfilled to my death date.


20 pairs?  Holy cow.  We might have to hold a committee meeting to discuss whether @Paladin79 is still the Melz Hoardus Supremus.  😂


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> 20 pairs?  Holy cow.  We might have to hold a committee meeting to discuss whether @Paladin79 is still the Melz Hoardus Supremus.  😂


He probably has 100 total. Ha. I've only pursued the perforated so I'm not stocking on the solid plates. Plus he inspired my pursuit of curiosity to verify that MELZ magik.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> 20 pairs?  Holy cow.  We might have to hold a committee meeting to discuss whether @Paladin79 is still the Melz Hoardus Supremus.  😂


LMAO, I need to remove myself from this  conversation. Take over if you wish, try your native gibberish and see if that prevails.😀


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> He probably has 100 total. Ha. I've only pursued the perforated so I'm not stocking on the solid plates. Plus he inspired my pursuit of curiosity to verify that MELZ magik.


You are most kind. I have tried several types of the perforated over 4 decades of their existence. I just have those I prefer to keep.  I also ask opinions of such folks as Sir Cowen Esq., for what that is worth.🤪


----------



## jonathan c

By decree of a plebeian Head-Fier, the title of _the _Melz hoarder is hereby declared to be: “Emporer Maximelzian of Paladin” !! 🎺🎺


----------



## jonathan c

Slight edit above 👆


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> You are most kind. I have tried several types of the perforated over 4 decades of their existence. I just have those I prefer to keep.  I also ask opinions of such folks as Sir Cowen Esq., for what that is worth.🤪


…folks?….Sir?….Esq?…—> knight or knave?🤨🤔…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> …folks?….Sir?….Esq?…—> knight or knave?🤨🤔…


Naive?


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> You are most kind. I have tried several types of the perforated over 4 decades of their existence. I just have those I prefer to keep.  I also ask opinions of such folks as Sir Cowen Esq., for what that is worth.🤪


I figure you should have a stockpile since you've been collecting for a couple years and under rather reasonable prices. I will have enough though and importantly matched to my favorite headphone pairing.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 22, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> I figure you should have a stockpile since you've been collecting for a couple years and under rather reasonable prices. I will have enough though and importantly matched to my favorite headphone pairing.


I have what I want except for more 1961 1578’s. I also designed my own amp to show off 6SN7 differences. @bcowen and @sam6550a have one.
I have spent my career in electronics and know a lot of people, my hobby supports itself and allows me to focus money elsewhere.😀


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LMAO, I need to remove myself from this  conversation. Take over if you wish, try your native gibberish and see if that prevails.😀


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


>


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> By decree of a plebeian Head-Fier, the title of _the _Melz hoarder is hereby declared to be: “Emporer Maximelzian of Paladin” !! 🎺🎺


What, did the committee meet already?  I wasn't notified.      Not sure how you even had a quorum seeing as I'm the only other committee member.  Fake decree.


----------



## raindownthunda

Paladin79 said:


> It depends on which pairs. The tubes you posted by the Italian seller are what I consider to be comparable to Fotons and should be sold for $25 each or thereabouts. As I believe you pointed out the good ones are pretty rare, even before the war in Ukraine Russian sellers were trying to pass off other Melz for 1578 prices. I have been looking long enough to have found many great Melz for $25-$35, those days are over. I own most every year and type I want to own, I gave away four in the last two weeks because I had duplicates.


I believe you just described trickle-down tube economics


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What, did the committee meet already?  I wasn't notified.      Not sure how you even had a quorum seeing as I'm the only other committee member.  Fake decree.


Sorry but as @jonathan c speaks, thus speaks the universe. You are probably off in the hinterlands far away from your tube world anyway.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry but as @jonathan c speaks, thus speaks the universe. You are probably off in the hinterlands far away from your tube world anyway.


LOL!  Yeah, it's a sucky place that doesn't even know who the Tarheels are.  The educational challenge here will be daunting.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


>


When bcowen gibberishes, Marilyn Manson plagiarises…😳😅😳😅…


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 22, 2022)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yeah, it's a sucky place that doesn't even know who the Tarheels are.  The educational challenge here will be daunting.


OMG they probably offer BBQ other than pig, what will you do to convert these savages??? When in Rome, enjoy the Kudzu I suppose.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yeah, it's a sucky place that doesn't even know who the Tarheels** are.  The educational challenge here will be daunting.


** home of the fake decree degree…😅


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry but as @jonathan c speaks, thus speaks the universe. You are probably off in the hinterlands far away from your tube world anyway.


…off in a vacuum…😂😣…


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> …off in a vacuum…😂😣…


The opposite of a vacuum is a plenum, when @bcowen speaks I imagine a lot of air filling the void, hot air.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> ** home of the fake decree degree…😅


Now now, Bill finally got his degree in taxidermy after he was much older than his professors, they finally graduated him after they got tired of calling him dad.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> OMG they probably offer BBQ other than pig, what will you do to convert these savages??? When in Rome, enjoy the Kudzu I suppose.


It's only a 3 hour drive back to pig heaven , so frequent stashing trips are reasonably feasible when necessary.  I haven't tried the BBQ here yet....maybe it _doesn't _suck.  

Yeah, LOL, right...like that's possible.

😂😂


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now now, Bill finally got his degree in taxidermy after he was much older than his professors, they finally graduated him after they got tired of calling him dad.


That's *Mr*. Dad to you, pal.  😉


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 22, 2022)

bcowen said:


> That's *Mr*. Dad to you, pal.  😉


Lol, true story I was down in that area buying electronic equipment and was taken to some storage building that looked pre-civil war. They opened one door and kudzu had come in the window and filled an entire room. Later that night we walked up wide wooden stairs from our hotel to a bar. They had to spray the steps each night to keep the plant from taking over.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's *Mr*. Dad to you, pal. 😉


If you had the degree, it would be ‘Sir Dr. Dad Esq.’….😂


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 22, 2022)

Now, now.  In Bill's defense - after 6 years and federally mandated special accomodations, he did graduate with a major in lanyard making and a minor in coloring within the lines from Appalachian State.

Attending UNC was merely a fever dream he had during a horrible bout with Chlamydia. 

(Sorry, Bill.  I haven't posted much recently and it was just pent up ribbing.). 😄


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Now, now.  In Bill's defense - after 6 years and federally mandated special accomodations, he did graduate with a major in lanyard making and a minor in coloring within the lines from Applachian State.
> 
> Attending UNC was merely a fever dream he had during a horrible bout with Chlamydia.
> 
> (Sorry, Bill.  I haven't posted much recently and it was just pent up ribbing.). 😄


Wondered what was keeping you...  🙂


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Wondered what was keeping you...  🙂


I kept thinking it was seven years but then as I recall, Bill was doing the counting.
 Mr. Cowen just remember to keep your windows closed at night and sleep with a machete under your pillow and you will be fine. Also be sure not to watch Day of the Triffids; you will sleep more soundly.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Now, now.  In Bill's defense - after 6 years and federally mandated special accomodations, he did graduate with a major in lanyard making and a minor in coloring within the lines from Appalachian State.
> 
> Attending UNC was merely a fever dream he had during a horrible bout with Chlamydia.
> 
> (Sorry, Bill.  I haven't posted much recently and it was just pent up ribbing.). 😄


His application to the postgraduate ‘colour by numbers’ is incomplete / pending 🤷🏻‍♂️…


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I kept thinking it was seven years but then as I recall, Bill was doing the counting.
> Mr. Cowen just remember to keep your windows closed at night and sleep with a machete under your pillow and you will be fine. Also be sure not to watch Day of the Triffids; you will sleep more soundly.


….and count 7N7 Frankies (not ECG 5814s) for good sleep 😴 …


----------



## khashmi

Wanted to thank Paladin79 and Paradoxper for helping me identify my first pair of Melz. It will be shipped tomorrow and should arrive in a couple of days. Any suggestions on which one of the following tubes I should marry it with on the buffer side of the Freya plus:

RCA-VT-231 Grey Glass (1943)
Sylvania VT-231 (1945)
Ken-Rad VT-231 (1945)
CBS Hytron 5692 (1950’s)
New Production Electro Harmonix that came with the Freya
Sylvania GTA or GTB (1950’s)


----------



## TLO

khashmi said:


> Wanted to thank Paladin79 and Paradoxper for helping me identify my first pair of Melz. It will be shipped tomorrow and should arrive in a couple of days. Any suggestions on which one of the following tubes I should marry it with on the buffer side of the Freya plus:
> 
> RCA-VT-231 Grey Glass (1943)
> Sylvania VT-231 (1945)
> ...


Get one pair of each, except the EH and SYL GTA / GTB. There is no such thing as having too many tubes...😂
Ask these tube old-timers, how regretful they are for not grabbing more years ago...😅


----------



## Paladin79

khashmi said:


> Wanted to thank Paladin79 and Paradoxper for helping me identify my first pair of Melz. It will be shipped tomorrow and should arrive in a couple of days. Any suggestions on which one of the following tubes I should marry it with on the buffer side of the Freya plus:
> 
> RCA-VT-231 Grey Glass (1943)
> Sylvania VT-231 (1945)
> ...


Ok if you are talking the cathode follower side I would use something like the Sylvania GTB's, the others are absolutely great tubes other than the EH and I would save those for the gain stage on the right. I have used four Melz at the same time but it was overkill, normally I run Raytheon WGT's or Sylvanias on the left side. I like to put the best tubes I can find on the right side and really like the CBS/Hytron 5692's there as well. They are your ears and your tastes so any advice should be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## khashmi

Thanks TLO

I already have one pair of all the tubes I listed above, except the EH, where I have a quad.  

Thanks Paladin79

That’s exactly how I’ve paired all the VT-231 and Hytron tubes so far (in Gain) and with the Sylvania GTB or in one case the GTA in cathode follower.  

Just for schiits and giggles, I took out the Sylvania GTB from the cathode follower stage for the first time and put in a Sylvania VT-231 with KR’s in the gain. Early days, but I think the VT-231 seems to be wasted there. 

I’ll go back to Sylvania GTB in cathode follower once I receive the Melz. 

So far, the RCA VT-231 is my favorite, with KR a close second.


----------



## TLO (Mar 23, 2022)

khashmi said:


> Thanks TLO
> 
> I already have one pair of all the tubes I listed above, except the EH, where I have a quad.
> 
> ...


I see that you are short of NU 6SN7GT (black glass / grey glass) and TS 6SN7GT/VT-231 (BGRP)...yeah, TS are very expensive, I missed the boat 1-2 year ago. Should have at least get a pair last year myself, not going to get them at these prices now. You should try and get the NU in your collection when they are still quite reasonably priced.


----------



## Paladin79

TLO said:


> I see that you are short of NU 6SN7GT (black glass / grey glass) and TS 6SN7GT/VT-231 (BGRP)...yeah, TS are very expensive, I missed the boat 1-2 year ago. Should have at least get a pair last year myself, not going to get them at these prices now. You should try and get the NU in your collection when they are still quite reasonably priced.


I went through a black glass phase, even found some RCA black glass and naturally I have several NU's, Tung Sol BGRP, etc. I even got good tubes when I was buying tubes by the pound for headphone stands lol. I told the seller I really liked the looks of black glass so he sent me a few dozen. They really did not look as good as clear glass but they helped increase my supply of black glass at like $10 per pound.


----------



## TLO (Aug 24, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> I went through a black glass phase, even found some RCA black glass and naturally I have several NU's, Tung Sol BGRP, etc. I even got good tubes when I was buying tubes by the pound for headphone stands lol. I told the seller I really liked the looks of black glass so he sent me a few dozen. They really did not look as good as clear glass but they helped increase my supply of black glass at like $10 per pound.


😆


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> I absolutely understand the feeling...LOL
> Recently, I managed to grab 7 pairs of TS 6C8G (BGRP) at a super great deal. 4 pairs at about USD5.50 a piece in white boxes and 3 pairs at under USD20 a piece in original military boxes. All unused in mint condition tested near or above 100% emission. I have a big smile on my face for more than a month now...😆


Man, you _stole _those.  The TS is my favorite 6C8G.


----------



## Isaacc7

My cv1102 came in. 





Using a gf8g adapter and working fine. My amp can use a variety of twin triode tubes for the input. It can handle the 6bx7 so I knew this tube would be fine in it too. Initial impressions are wow!  The Mullard el38 output tubes are super detailed and have solid bass but sound a little thin and cold in my amp. The cv1102 really warmed up the tone and filled in what was missing  through the middle. Will let it cook a while before coming to any final decisions but it sounds great so far. I’m sure these are British but does anyone know who made them or the year or anything? Thanks!


----------



## Isaacc7

And just like that I’ve bought four Marconi bl63 tubes. I keep saying I’m done buying tubes but then I binge again. Oh well, haven’t hit rock bottom yet.


----------



## khashmi

TLO said:


> I see that you are short of NU 6SN7GT (black glass / grey glass) and TS 6SN7GT/VT-231 (BGRP)...yeah, TS are very expensive, I missed the boat 1-2 year ago. Should have at least get a pair last year myself, not going to get them at these prices now. You should try and get the NU in your collection when they are still quite reasonably priced.



Thanks TLO—for some reason, the NU has been super low on my radar.  I’ve been on a VT-231 collecting spree.  Obviously looked for the much acclaimed TS VT-231 BGRP (but’s its been very challenging to find and if you do find a pair, it‘s way too expensive).  The next tube on my list was the Raytheon VT-231 actually.  I continue to hear rave reviews.  In fact, the tube collector who sold me the Sylvania VT-231, was surprised that I didn’t have the Raytheon already in my arsenal.


----------



## TLO

khashmi said:


> Thanks TLO—for some reason, the NU has been super low on my radar.  I’ve been on a VT-231 collecting spree.  Obviously looked for the much acclaimed TS VT-231 BGRP (but’s its been very challenging to find and if you do find a pair, it‘s way too expensive).  The next tube on my list was the Raytheon VT-231 actually.  I continue to hear rave reviews.  In fact, the tube collector who sold me the Sylvania VT-231, was surprised that I didn’t have the Raytheon already in my arsenal.


I was about to include RT VT231 but then, I find it sound a bit thin for my liking. Have 2 pairs myself. Anyway, remember to get the flat plate with mica support and not the T- plate. Most ppl prefer the flat plate over T-plate. Lastly, talk to @JTbbb , he has a pair of TS 6SN7GT BGRP to let go.


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> My cv1102 came in.
> 
> 
> 
> Using a gf8g adapter and working fine. My amp can use a variety of twin triode tubes for the input. It can handle the 6bx7 so I knew this tube would be fine in it too. Initial impressions are wow!  The Mullard el38 output tubes are super detailed and have solid bass but sound a little thin and cold in my amp. The cv1102 really warmed up the tone and filled in what was missing  through the middle. Will let it cook a while before coming to any final decisions but it sounds great so far. I’m sure these are British but does anyone know who made them or the year or anything? Thanks!


Code Z is Marconi-Osram Valve Company in Hammersmith.


----------



## khashmi

TLO said:


> I was about to include RT VT231 but then, I find it sound a bit thin for my liking. Have 2 pairs myself. Anyway, remember to get the flat plate with mica support and not the T- plate. Most ppl prefer the flat plate over T-plate. Lastly, talk to @JTbbb , he has a pair of TS 6SN7GT BGRP to let go.


Thanks for the dual tips!


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Code Z is Marconi-Osram Valve Company in Hammersmith.


Thanks! Is there a link that goes over the different British brands and manufacturers? I’m confused about the differences betweeen MOV, Brimar, GEC, and Mullard. Seems like all of them are well regarded but it would be cool to understand what the differences are.


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> Thanks! Is there a link that goes over the different British brands and manufacturers? I’m confused about the differences betweeen MOV, Brimar, GEC, and Mullard. Seems like all of them are well regarded but it would be cool to understand what the differences are.


Sure, here you go...


----------



## steve468

Does anyone please tell me if it's okay to use different brands or constructions of tubes as pairs? Specifically I have a clear glass and black glass Ken Rad 6sn7 that I'm looking to pair up. Sorry if my Google skills aren't up to par, but I couldn't find an answer to this.


----------



## rawheadjim

I can only buy military grade tubes that will withstand extreme G's including the weight of automobiles. Despite numerous complaints from me, USPS and Fed Ex like to leave deliveries hidden in our driveway so we cannot see them with a closed garage door, or know they were delivered at all. They leave them in just the right place so my wife's car will roll right over them.


----------



## Odin412

steve468 said:


> Does anyone please tell me if it's okay to use different brands or constructions of tubes as pairs? Specifically I have a clear glass and black glass Ken Rad 6sn7 that I'm looking to pair up. Sorry if my Google skills aren't up to par, but I couldn't find an answer to this.


I don't think there's any danger in combing the two since they're both 6SN7s. What I don't know if you'll get channel imbalance due to different gain in the two tubes. Only one way to find out...


----------



## JTbbb

Odin412 said:


> I don't think there's any danger in combing the two since they're both 6SN7s. What I don't know if you'll get channel imbalance due to different gain in the two tubes. Only one way to find out...


+ 1


----------



## steve468

Odin412 said:


> I don't think there's any danger in combing the two since they're both 6SN7s. What I don't know if you'll get channel imbalance due to different gain in the two tubes. Only one way to find out...


Thanks! Well, at my age my ears are kind of imbalanced anyway, so it could be a good thing.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Sure, here you go...


Thanks for the list. It'll be helpful if I keep diving into the deep end of tube prices lol. I was wondering if there is a simple primer on who the companies were, their relative quality, etc. Guess I'll need to do some internet sleuthing...


----------



## Odin412

steve468 said:


> Thanks! Well, at my age my ears are kind of imbalanced anyway, so it could be a good thing.


Too funny! I have a pair of Raytheon 6DE7s for a Woo Audio WA6 amp that work just fine (and sound great) except that they have noticeably different gain. Nothing that the balance control in J River can't fix, though.


----------



## HTSkywalker

steve468 said:


> Does anyone please tell me if it's okay to use different brands or constructions of tubes as pairs? Specifically I have a clear glass and black glass Ken Rad 6sn7 that I'm looking to pair up. Sorry if my Google skills aren't up to par, but I couldn't find an answer to this.


While technically doable, different tube brands have different sound characteristics and the sound would be definitely odd. Even with identical same brand pairs, gain should be close for the pair to be matched to give a balanced sound.
But again you can always try and see for yourself.


----------



## HTSkywalker

rawheadjim said:


> I can only buy military grade tubes that will withstand extreme G's including the weight of automobiles. Despite numerous complaints from me, USPS and Fed Ex like to leave deliveries hidden in our driveway so we cannot see them with a closed garage door, or know they were delivered at all. They leave them in just the right place so my wife's car will roll right over them.


Not sure it is accidental about your wife rolling over a package containing tubes especially if the invoice was with the package.😆😆


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> But again you can always try and see for yourself.


Please do not try with Philips ECGs or GEs…you only get one pair of ears 😳…


----------



## HTSkywalker

Odin412 said:


> Too funny! I have a pair of Raytheon 6DE7s for a Woo Audio WA6 amp that work just fine (and sound great) except that they have noticeably different gain. Nothing that the balance control in J River can't fix, though.


Again......age can do wonders to your ears 🤐🤐


----------



## jonathan c

rawheadjim said:


> I can only buy military grade tubes that will withstand extreme G's including the weight of automobiles. Despite numerous complaints from me, USPS and Fed Ex like to leave deliveries hidden in our driveway so we cannot see them with a closed garage door, or know they were delivered at all. They leave them in just the right place so my wife's car will roll right over them.


She was just trying to roll over tubes without putting them in the amplifier 🤷🏻‍♂️😂…


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Please do not try with Philips ECGs or GEs…you only get one pair of ears 😳…


One advantage of those tubes that you can mix as you wish, they will suck anyway lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> She was just trying to roll over tubes without putting them in the amplifier 🤷🏻‍♂️😂…


Still called tube rolling "over" 😜😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

Mind you if the rolled over tubes are GEs or ECGs "THE WIFE" did him a favor 😁😁


----------



## Tom-s (Mar 25, 2022)

steve468 said:


> Does anyone please tell me if it's okay to use different brands or constructions of tubes as pairs? Specifically I have a clear glass and black glass Ken Rad 6sn7 that I'm looking to pair up. Sorry if my Google skills aren't up to par, but I couldn't find an answer to this.



You could perfectly pair two tubes of the same type and use them in the same amplifier (if the amp calls for that type). It won't hurt in any way. Just try it.

Below is not "the truth". But it's the way I look at it.

"Balanced" / "matched" or other words to describe a similarities on a specific parameter between two tubes have more to do with marketing than any real world result you get from it. Matching matters in some situations; like with a fixed bias balanced output stage. And does not apply to 95/100 tubes used on this forum.
It's mostly a way to sell tubes. It's a way for sellers to differentiate themselves from other sellers. Because they can match on some parameter others don't hence their tubes are better ($$$$). Probably not.

It all depends on who you'd ask.

*1*. The gain or mu of a tube can be calculated by S*Ri (***). With age the transconductance (difference in anode current devided by difference in grid/cathode voltage) usually goes down and the Ri of the tube subsequently goes up. With age, in turn, the mu stays pretty constant in the triodes we use here.

*2*. There's no correlation with one measurement in time for a tube and how it will age.  So two tubes can/will age differently from each other.

*3*. The gain of a tube stage is dependent on more than the tube on it's own. If, par example, the bias or cathode resistors vary (by even 10%) between two halves of your amplifier. It's perfectly possible that with a "perfectly matched" tube the amp will still show differences in gain from that stage as well as distortion differences.

*4*. It's perfectly possible you won't hear it. In most autobias type single ended amplifiers it won't be audible at all. Similar as most we don't match the output transformer used. Or the driver in our headphones (are you sure your drivers are perfectly matched on all frequencies?; these also don't age exactly like the other.). In 99/100 cases you won't hear it because there's so much more influencing the sound and the differences.
Even if we'd hear it. A reason to listen to tubes is their pleasant distortion pattern.


So it's possible for anyone to buy a matched tube that's no longer balanced after a while of normal use, because of reason 2 (and won't notice it). It even could have functioned "unbalanced" in the amplifier that person is using all the time, like all tubes used in there because of reason 3 (and he/she never noticed anything.

And any part of the system around the tubes could influence in such a way that unmatched tubes make for a better left/right channel match/balance in that setup (4).
That could even sound worse. As (by example) a person prefers the slight harmonic distortion differences between the channels that for him just add up to a better sounding amplifier. This could be his reason to buy matched tubes; as they create this situation within his amplifier. The same could apply to his neighbours and be the reason to use unbalanced tubes in an amp as they create a better channel balance...

There's situations where balanced tubes matter. Even then. Remember these amplifiers in most cases have a bias adjustment that's used for a reason (mostly -> 2).

(***) -> S a European way of saying Transconductance. Ri = internal resistance of the tube.


----------



## rawheadjim (Mar 25, 2022)

I know right?  I'm having enough trouble sneaking tube packages in the house without the wife noticing, and then another set is hidden and bam, busted, literally!  I told her not to worry, this set wasn't too expensive.  I've set up USPS notifications, but they don't always notify me until hours after the fact.  Unless I happen to be looking out the window when they drop them off, we never know there's a package right outside our garage door.  I don't know how they expect us to see it there, it is ridiculous! 

I tried the Sylvania 6SL7WGT's last night in both sides of my Freya+ to see if they survived my wife, after surviving the cold war.  While the boxes were obliterated, the tubes didn't show visible damage.  I don't have any testing equipment so I have no way of knowing except by listening.  In the right/gain side, they sounded pretty nice.  Good soundstage and imaging, decent bass, good high end, but the midrange was more in the background compared to other tubes I've been enjoying.  After a few songs I swapped them over to the left drive side, and I did notice something different.  The vocals and drums that are normally dead center with all other tubes, were midway between center and the right channel speaker.  I don't know if that was due to my wife's car, or just the age of these tubes in particular.


----------



## khashmi

And here I thought I was the only one sneaking in tubes, lol. Getting all deliveries sent to the office helps tremendously though because of the weekend, sometimes you have to wait a couple extra days.


----------



## rawheadjim

I might try that, but the mailroom at my office building has been known to delay mail and even leave it lying around in the wrong offices.  We just lease space there but don't own it, and I've been more remote than onsite lately.  We also have a policy that says we cannot use our work address for personal package shipping, but at least then my wife won't know and she can't "roll my tubes!"


----------



## khashmi

Tom-s said:


> You could perfectly pair two tubes of the same type and use them in the same amplifier (if the amp calls for that type). It won't hurt in any way. Just try it.
> 
> Below is not "the truth". But it's the way I look at it.
> 
> ...


Thanks. This is very interesting. Does this apply to both amps and preamps or just amps?


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> Please do not try with Philips ECGs or GEs…you only get one pair of ears 😳…


But maybe in this case, two wrongs will make a right


----------



## LoryWiv

HTSkywalker said:


> Not sure it is accidental about your wife rolling over a package containing tubes especially if the invoice was with the package.😆😆


Maybe she and her car were were "tired" of your tube buying.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> One advantage of those tubes that you can mix as you wish, they will suck anyway lol


You want your ECGs and GEs to be matched….can you imagine if one sucked _more _than the other?…😳😖…


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> Maybe she and her car were were "tired" of your tube buying.


…riding on radials without innertubes…🤣😖


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 25, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> I know right? I'm having enough trouble sneaking tube packages in the house without the wife noticing, and then another set is hidden and bam, busted, literally!


Pro Tip:

1. Deliver tubes to office not to the house.
2. Take the package home and upon arrival home, but before getting out of the car, open the box remove the tube and gently place tube in front pants pocket.
3. Go into the house and immediately give the wife a huge hug.
4. If she notices and asks what that is, just tell her you're just really happy to see her and you'll be happy to show her just how happy after you slip into something more comfortable. **
5. Go directly to the bedroom and immediately hide the tube.
6. Slip into something comfortable.
7. Wait an appropriate amount of time (15 minutes) to see if she reciprocates the joy of you coming home. 
8.  Wait until there's an opportunity to covertly unhide the tube and add it to your tube stash.  She'll never notice one more tube.

** Important note:  May not work and certainly less impressive with miniature tubes like 6201 or novals like 12A*7 family of tubes.

Always happy to help.


----------



## rawheadjim

Great advice Ripper!  🤣  I will have to put this procedure into practice.  It prevents her "tube rolling" with her car, and doesn't raise any eyebrows with more tubes!  Now I just have to figure out how to sneak in more vinyl, unnoticed.


----------



## khashmi

Hahaha. I’m chucking the damn shipping box in the office, so there’s no evidence in the car or our recycling can. Tubes go in my front jacket pocket, right above my heart. Will not be hugging with the jacket on! And then, take them out quietly into the listening room. Add to collection. Works like a charm!


----------



## khashmi

rawheadjim said:


> Great advice Ripper!  🤣  I will have to put this procedure into practice.  It prevents her "tube rolling" with her car, and doesn't raise any eyebrows with more tubes!  Now I just have to figure out how to sneak in more vinyl, unnoticed.


Vinyl is tricky cuz of the size-can’t hide that schiit. I may have left it in the car a few times to make sure the coast was clear before bringing it down.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 25, 2022)

Divorce isn't so bad... there is a lot more time for hobbies, but there is a lot less money available for hobbies, therein lies the conundrum...


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> Pro Tip:
> 
> 1. Deliver tubes to office not to the house.
> 2. Take the package home and upon arrival home, but before getting out of the car, open the box remove the tube and gently place tube in front pants pocket.
> ...


Edit: "or your normal physiology".


----------



## Ripper2860

khashmi said:


> Vinyl is tricky cuz of the size-can’t hide that schiit. I may have left it in the car a few times to make sure the coast was clear before bringing it down.


An appropriately sized computer bag works wonders.  

"Yeah, hun.  I got some work I gotta get done tonight.:


----------



## JTbbb

Ripper2860 said:


> Pro Tip:
> 
> 1. Deliver tubes to office not to the house.
> 2. Take the package home and upon arrival home, but before getting out of the car, open the box remove the tube and gently place tube in front pants pocket.
> ...


Blimey Ripper, what if you have a pair of tubes 😀😀😀


----------



## khashmi

Ripper2860 said:


> An appropriately sized computer bag works wonders.
> 
> "Yeah, hun.  I got some work I gotta get done tonight.:


Mental Note: Search for bigger laptop bag….


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 25, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Blimey Ripper, what if you have a pair of tubes 😀😀😀


I either place them end-to-end or sneak them in over 2 days.  One must know the limits of their spouse's gullibility and/or their trouser's pocket.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Pro Tip:
> 
> 1. Deliver tubes to office not to the house.
> 2. Take the package home and upon arrival home, but before getting out of the car, open the box remove the tube and gently place tube in front pants pocket.
> ...


Man, that's a seriously laborious process.  I unbox mine wherever, and if she notices and says anything I just say "shoes."  That's usually enough.


----------



## Isaacc7

That was fast, got the Marconi BL63 tubes in. If I have my info right these are the later version of the cv1102 that I already have. These are smart looking tubes! I had quite the tube day today. I posted about the Mullard, Brimar, and Telefunken tubes I got today in the pentode thread. Going to have fun listening to these over the next several weeks!


----------



## Isaacc7

Hmm, wondering if I should conserve the cv1102, they seem to be a rarer tube. Though I guess none of these are exactly common. The cv1102 sounds really good. I had gotten it in my head that these were essentially an ecc32 with a top cap. While the heater current draw is comparable, the other specs aren't really. Still, I think they have a lot of what people describe the ecc32 as. Warm, big, with a smooth midrange. Bass is super strong too.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Man, that's a seriously laborious process.  I unbox mine wherever, and if she notices and says anything I just say "shoes."  That's usually enough.


I've taken to storing my tubes in my wife's shoes.  That's the last place she'll ever look.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I've taken to storing my tubes in my wife's shoes.  That's the last place she'll ever look.


What if she takes a whole batch of shoes to consignment for $ for new shoes?…😳😱…the Tung-Sols get sent out with the tongue-soles…🤪


----------



## bcowen (Mar 26, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> What if she takes a whole batch of shoes to consignment for $ for new shoes?…😳😱…the Tung-Sols get sent out with the tongue-soles…🤪


A woman getting rid of shoes? 

Be right back...I think I just saw a pig flying by the window. 🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> A woman getting rid of shoes?


Only for $$$ for new ones…if not hers, your shoe (singular!!)…🤣


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> I've taken to storing my tubes in my wife's shoes.  That's the last place she'll ever look.


Unless she's "stepping out" on you!


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> My cv1102 came in.
> 
> 
> 
> Using a gf8g adapter and working fine. My amp can use a variety of twin triode tubes for the input. It can handle the 6bx7 so I knew this tube would be fine in it too. Initial impressions are wow!  The Mullard el38 output tubes are super detailed and have solid bass but sound a little thin and cold in my amp. The cv1102 really warmed up the tone and filled in what was missing  through the middle. Will let it cook a while before coming to any final decisions but it sounds great so far. I’m sure these are British but does anyone know who made them or the year or anything? Thanks!


Months ago, this caught my eye but after realizing heater current is 1.27A, I just dont feel too comfortable rolling these in the 6SN7GT position. My amp, LM508IA, can take 3 pieces of Mullard ECC32 (one as 6SL7GT and two as 6SN7GT), which has a heater current of 0.95A each, does anyone know if I would be able to roll two pieces of CV1102 as 6SN7GT safely?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Only for $$$ for new ones…if not hers, your shoe (singular!!)…🤣


You must think I'm lucky.  I can't afford shoes.


----------



## Mr. Olinad

Sorry if it was already discussed but it looks like Western Electric is thinking about bringing back the tube production and our requests are important for their final decision.

Check it out here.
https://www.westernelectric.com/expand


----------



## rawheadjim

I took the survey but 6SN7's are not in their menu of tube types to select, for your preference for WE to manufacture.  You can write in other types in a free text box however.  I've heard in another forum that's because they are already working on producing 6SN7's, but I'm not sure.  You'd think if they were considering or even in the process of tooling up to make them, they would still want to know the demand.  I emailed WE about 3 weeks ago and asked if they were going to make 6SN7's, if I could preorder, or get on a notification list.  

They simply said No, we are not making 6SN7's, but you can buy some 300B's right now on our site.  Again, why wouldn't they at least say, check back later?  Well, my Freya+ doesn't use 300B's so that was a silly answer, and they charge $1,499 for a matched pair of 300B's anyway.  If they do end up making 6SN7's, what will they cost, at least a grand for a pair?  I'm sorry but I can get a lot of nice vintage tubes for that, even with the hyper-inflated wartime pricing going on right now.


----------



## TLO

rawheadjim said:


> I took the survey but 6SN7's are not in their menu of tube types to select, for your preference for WE to manufacture.  You can write in other types in a free text box however.  I've heard in another forum that's because they are already working on producing 6SN7's, but I'm not sure.  You'd think if they were considering or even in the process of tooling up to make them, they would still want to know the demand.  I emailed WE about 3 weeks ago and asked if they were going to make 6SN7's, if I could preorder, or get on a notification list.
> 
> They simply said No, we are not making 6SN7's, but you can buy some 300B's right now on our site.  Again, why wouldn't they at least say, check back later?  Well, my Freya+ doesn't use 300B's so that was a silly answer, and they charge $1,499 for a matched pair of 300B's anyway.  If they do end up making 6SN7's, what will they cost, at least a grand for a pair?  I'm sorry but I can get a lot of nice vintage tubes for that, even with the hyper-inflated wartime pricing going on right now.


...becos I am guessing 6SN7 is already in production and will be launch within this year or next year as I have heard. The prototype I have seen is similar in construction compared to SYL 6SN7GTB. Yeah, very boring if you ask me, I nearly fell asleep looking at it...😅 Why cant they take into consideration in making something what the Chinese are doing but with much better quality 6SN7GT in a shoulder type glass tube? That will be very interesting.


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> I took the survey but 6SN7's are not in their menu of tube types to select, for your preference for WE to manufacture.  You can write in other types in a free text box however.  I've heard in another forum that's because they are already working on producing 6SN7's, but I'm not sure.  You'd think if they were considering or even in the process of tooling up to make them, they would still want to know the demand.  I emailed WE about 3 weeks ago and asked if they were going to make 6SN7's, if I could preorder, or get on a notification list.
> 
> They simply said No, we are not making 6SN7's, but you can buy some 300B's right now on our site.  Again, why wouldn't they at least say, check back later?  Well, my Freya+ doesn't use 300B's so that was a silly answer, and they charge $1,499 for a matched pair of 300B's anyway.  If they do end up making 6SN7's, what will they cost, at least a grand for a pair?  I'm sorry but I can get a lot of nice vintage tubes for that, even with the hyper-inflated wartime pricing going on right now.


You might well be right, but I doubt they'd find much of a market for 6SN7's at $1k/pair.  I'd guess more around the $500/pair range, but my guess is no better than yours.  Still frightfully expensive either way, especially when super-primo NOS tubes can still be had for less.  But the NOS supplies won't last forever and the prices will just continue to escalate to where maybe even $1k/pair is considered cheap.  I'll wait to cross that bridge when we get to it, which will hopefully be after I'm dead.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 26, 2022)

bcowen said:


> You might well be right, but I doubt they'd find much of a market for 6SN7's at $1k/pair.  I'd guess more around the $500/pair range, but my guess is no better than yours.  Still frightfully expensive either way, especially when super-primo NOS tubes can still be had for less.  But the NOS supplies won't last forever and the prices will just continue to escalate to where maybe even $1k/pair is considered cheap.  I'll wait to cross that bridge when we get to it, which will hopefully be after I'm dead.


…in heaven, Incubus + _nos/nib _Tung Sol 5998 + _nos/nib _GEC CV1988 ☁️; in hell, _stock _DarkVoice + _nib _GE 6080WC + _nib _Philips ECG CV1988 👿…better be good, for goodness sake!…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …in heaven, Incubus + _nos/nib _Tung Sol 5998 + _nos/nib _GEC CV1988 ☁️; in hell, _stock _DarkVoice + _nib _GE 6SN7GT + _nib _Philips ECG CV1988 👿…better be good, for goodness sake!…


Don't forget these.  Essential in hell.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Don't forget these.  Essential in hell.


…let’s not forget the archetypal hell performer:


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Don't forget these.  Essential in hell.


What, you got a problem with Voopwink? Heck, I'd buy 'em just for the goofy name alone…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


>


Once again, the ladies should be outraged: why is the discount applied to the blue model but not to the pink model…? 🔥🛠…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> What, you got a problem with Voopwink? Heck, I'd buy 'em just for the goofy name alone…


Problem?  Goodness no.  I just chuckle at the unknowing schmucks that buy the standard version.  Only Voopwink Supreme for me.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 26, 2022)

I forgot to add 6SN7's, so I went back and did it again with a secondary email address!  Here is what I asked for:

"Hi, I would like to add that I'd love to buy a bunch of the 6SN7, 5692, and perhaps a special new from scratch design variant!

Also, please resurect the 421A, 5998, 7236, 6520, and 6080WB - with graphite plates and ceramic spacers!!

Thank you!"


Mr. Olinad said:


> Sorry if it was already discussed but it looks like Western Electric is thinking about bringing back the tube production and our requests are important for their final decision.
> 
> Check it out here.
> https://www.westernelectric.com/expand


"New Tube Interest
Thank you for your time. You will be among the first to hear official announcements regarding Western Electric tube production.
Feel free to reach out via phone or email. Regular business hours are Monday - Friday, 09:00 AM to 05:00 PM ET.


----------



## Mr Trev

hmscott said:


> Darn, I forgot to add 6SN7's, so I went back and did it again with a secondary email address!  Here is what I asked for:
> 
> "Hi, I would like to add that I'd love to buy a bunch of the 6SN7, 5692, and perhaps a special new from scratch design variant!
> 
> ...


What no nixies?
I'll see myself out…


----------



## hmscott (Mar 26, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> What no nixies?
> I'll see myself out…





https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/western-electric-nixie-tube-vintage-135215685

Oh, well, maybe next time


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> I forgot to add 6SN7's, so I went back and did it again with a secondary email address!  Here is what I asked for:
> 
> "Hi, I would like to add that I'd love to buy a bunch of the 6SN7, 5692, and perhaps a special new from scratch design variant!
> 
> ...


They can resurrect the 421A (and I hope they will), but they never made a 7236, 6520, or 6080 so those would be a ground-up undertaking.  They never made a 6SN7 either, so it'll be interesting to see what they come up with (if they actually do).


----------



## jonathan c

Hey bcowen!, Saint Peter’s being in the Elite Eight is a “ground up undertaking”! Are you feeling lucky?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Hey bcowen!, Saint Peter’s being in the Elite Eight is a “ground up undertaking”! Are you feeling lucky?


Cinderella's glass slipper is about to break.     Actually, it's pretty lucky UNC got by UCLA last night.   But Saint Peters...hmmmm...is that a school or a church?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Cinderella's glass slipper is about to break.   Actually, it's pretty lucky UNC got by UCLA last night. But Saint Peters...hmmmm...is that a school or a church?


Or an apostle…?…opening pearly gates?….


----------



## HTSkywalker

rawheadjim said:


> I know right?  I'm having enough trouble sneaking tube packages in the house without the wife noticing, and then another set is hidden and bam, busted, literally!  I told her not to worry, this set wasn't too expensive.  I've set up USPS notifications, but they don't always notify me until hours after the fact.  Unless I happen to be looking out the window when they drop them off, we never know there's a package right outside our garage door.  I don't know how they expect us to see it there, it is ridiculous!
> 
> I tried the Sylvania 6SL7WGT's last night in both sides of my Freya+ to see if they survived my wife, after surviving the cold war.  While the boxes were obliterated, the tubes didn't show visible damage.  I don't have any testing equipment so I have no way of knowing except by listening.  In the right/gain side, they sounded pretty nice.  Good soundstage and imaging, decent bass, good high end, but the midrange was more in the background compared to other tubes I've been enjoying.  After a few songs I swapped them over to the left drive side, and I did notice something different.  The vocals and drums that are normally dead center with all other tubes, were midway between center and the right channel speaker.  I don't know if that was due to my wife's car, or just the age of these tubes in particular.


best way to compare is by using a mono source as stereo signal may deceive your ears while you switch tubes left and right.


----------



## HTSkywalker

khashmi said:


> And here I thought I was the only one sneaking in tubes, lol. Getting all deliveries sent to the office helps tremendously though because of the weekend, sometimes you have to wait a couple extra days.


Good thing is that tubes come in small packages and look old so you can claim a very low value and us being old farts collecting legacy gadgets 😜😜


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Mar 28, 2022)

Mr. Olinad said:


> Sorry if it was already discussed but it looks like Western Electric is thinking about bringing back the tube production and our requests are important for their final decision.
> 
> Check it out here.
> https://www.westernelectric.com/expand



I'm not all that interested in any of the tubes listed, I told them to bring back the 421A lol.

For series regulated power supplies, obviously.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Pro Tip:
> 
> 1. Deliver tubes to office not to the house.
> 2. Take the package home and upon arrival home, but before getting out of the car, open the box remove the tube and gently place tube in front pants pocket.
> ...


Well there's something about points 2 and 3 having to do about the tubes in the front pockets and giving the hug as tubes could be misidentified and things can go south...... especially with more than 1 tube in the pockets  😜😜😜
Rear pockets could be safer lol


----------



## L0rdGwyn

What the world _really_ needs is someone to start manufacturing the D3a.  This tube kicks so much audio ass, it's extremely versatile.  If it was more widely available, it would likely be in every 300B amplifier, every tube phono stage, any amplifier than needs high gain at low distortion with a relatively low output impedance AND low noise.  They are becoming more and more rare and expensive.  Maybe I'll start harassing Western Electric to make the tubes I want lol I'll try to sell them on it being a 300B driver.


----------



## whirlwind

bcowen said:


> Cinderella's glass slipper is about to break.     Actually, it's pretty lucky UNC got by UCLA last night.   But Saint Peters...hmmmm...is that a school or a church?



I am a Duke fan and my son is a North Carolina fan.

The trash talking has been pretty fierce!


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> What the world _really_ needs is someone to start manufacturing the D3a.  This tube kicks so much audio ass, it's extremely versatile.  If it was more widely available, it would likely be in every 300B amplifier, every tube phono stage, any amplifier than needs high gain at low distortion with a relatively low output impedance AND low noise.  They are becoming more and more rare and expensive.  Maybe I'll start harassing Western Electric to make the tubes I want lol I'll try to sell them on it being a 300B driver.



I think it's unlikely that Siemens will set up a tube factory to bring back those high gain low distortion tubes such as D3a, C3g or C3m. Western Electric may, if they want. WE actually had some good high gain low distortion tubes in the years before they shut down. I think it's better for WE to reproduce those tubes instead of 6SN7 tubes. 6SN7 is a highly saturated tube market, there are so many excellent NOS tubes and so abundant supply (at least up to this point), so there is little chance for WE to sell their high-priced new production 6SN7's, just like those LinLei / Psvane stuff, little sale volume on them. 






L0rdGwyn said:


> I'm not all that interested in any of the tubes listed, I told them to bring back the 421A lol.
> 
> For series regulated power supplies, obviously.



Power supply regulator or output tube in OTL or rectifier, it's highly impossible for WE to bring back WE 421A or WE 422A, as these tubes were not produced by WE. WE designed those tubes, but it's actually Tung Sol who produced those tubes for WE, along with some of its own TS 5998's.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> I think it's unlikely that Siemens will set up a tube factory to bring back those high gain low distortion tubes such as D3a, C3g or C3m. Western Electric may, if they want. WE actually had some good high gain low distortion tubes in the years before they shut down. I think it's better for WE to reproduce those tubes instead of 6SN7 tubes. 6SN7 is a highly saturated tube market, there are so many excellent NOS tubes and so abundant supply (at least up to this point), so there is little chance for WE to sell their high-priced new production 6SN7's, just like those LinLei / Psvane stuff, little sale volume on them.



It is unlikely, even moreso given the difficulty of manufacturing frame grid pentodes, but I can dream!



cddc said:


> Power supply regulator or output tube in OTL or rectifier, it's highly impossible for WE to bring back WE 421A or WE 422A, as these tubes were not produced by WE. WE designed those tubes, but it's actually Tung Sol who produced those tubes for WE, along with some of its own TS 5998's.



Oh right, as an OTL power tube too.  Makes you wonder who was making 421As in the 1980s


----------



## SlothRock

Welp ladies and gentlemen I just bought my first tube amp decided to go near the top since I found a great deal on a Feliks Euforia AE here in the forum. Just shipped out today so hopefully getting it this week. I am gonna put some time on it with stock tubes of course, but am looking to get a sense of what would be a recommended first tube roll in an amp like this with Verite Closed and HD800S headphones.

I'm not looking to go crazy spending $1k on tubes but after doing a little research I found some GEC 6080's and Melz 6sn7 tubes that get good marks and seem to be "relatively" affordable lol. Thoughts from folks here with this amp or other 6sn7/6as7 amps?


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> Oh right, as an OTL power tube too.  Makes you wonder who was making 421As in the 1980s




It must be the company who inherited / acquired Tung Sol's 5998 / 421A production lines. Just like 7236 was still in production long after Tung Sol had been gone.


----------



## paradoxper

Latest quad of MELZ feels complete. I can finish the hunt for Sophia Blue now.


----------



## rawheadjim

SlothRock said:


> Welp ladies and gentlemen I just bought my first tube amp decided to go near the top since I found a great deal on a Feliks Euforia AE here in the forum. Just shipped out today so hopefully getting it this week. I am gonna put some time on it with stock tubes of course, but am looking to get a sense of what would be a recommended first tube roll in an amp like this with Verite Closed and HD800S headphones.
> 
> I'm not looking to go crazy spending $1k on tubes but after doing a little research I found some GEC 6080's and Melz 6sn7 tubes that get good marks and seem to be "relatively" affordable lol. Thoughts from folks here with this amp or other 6sn7/6as7 amps?


Let's take bets on how long that lasts, before you're scathing ebay and scouring the internet for tubes.  Especially with a super primo amp like that, you're going to want to do that baby justice!  I've probably spent close to a grand on tubes since the beginning of the year, and I'm only using a $950 Freya+!  I didn't think I would go this tube rolling route either, but it's just so much fun to see how different you can make it sound.


----------



## SlothRock

rawheadjim said:


> Let's take bets on how long that lasts, before you're scathing ebay and scouring the internet for tubes.  Especially with a super primo amp like that, you're going to want to do that baby justice!  I've probably spent close to a grand on tubes since the beginning of the year, and I'm only using a $950 Freya+!  I didn't think I would go this tube rolling route either, but it's just so much fun to see how different you can make it sound.



Oh god, I already know it's going to happen lol part of me hopes when I hook this bad boy up I don't feel/hear much of a difference from my solid state so I don't go down this tube rabbit hole but I'm feeling pretty confident it's gonna be great having one solid state and one tube amp to really round out my listening experience which means that eventually I'm gonna cave on these primo tubes 🙈


----------



## Deleeh

I would be happy if there was something from Western Electric that I could use.
I wouldn't care if it was a 6SN7 or another great 421A or both.
It would be one of the few manufacturers on the market that knows what they are doing and would be welcome.
Apart from that, think 10,20,30 years ahead.
The Nos market will be so thinned out that you will be glad to have something from a good brand still available.
The Bad Boys, Vt32, Melz, Foton and the like will be completely out of the market in 5-10 years.
And if you should find some at a price that is outrageous, you can't imagine it without them.

At the moment we can be glad that there is something like Linlai, which has a rocky road behind it and can now offer something for the market.
And Western Electric also has to see that and not because there is allegedly no demand.
It is there and many people want it and everyone would have something in their drawer if something were still available.

And the prices will become more and more outrageous for normal common tubes on the Nos market.
I got a new set of Foton from 1952 for 45$ on Ebay, before the war it was 20$ less even if the tubes were from 1960.


----------



## bcowen

whirlwind said:


> *I am a Duke fan* and my son is a North Carolina fan.
> 
> The trash talking has been pretty fierce!


That's OK, nobody's perfect.   

I'm borrowing that from Coach K himself.  About 25 years ago I was in the baggage claim area at RDU (Raleigh-Durham airport) and up walks Coach K and a pretty young lady (turned out to be his daughter that he was picking up). I introduced myself and told him "No offense, but I'm a Carolina fan."  He laughed and gave me that same line.    

As much as I want the 'Heels to win, I won't be sad if Duke wins as long as they go on to take the title. Be a fitting way for Krzyzewski to end such an incredible and honorable career, and IMO he deserves it.


----------



## jonathan c

SlothRock said:


> I'm not *looking *to go crazy spending $1k on tubes but after doing a little research I found some GEC 6080's and Melz 6sn7 tubes that get good marks and seem to be "relatively" affordable** lol. Thoughts from folks here with this amp or other 6sn7/6as7 amps?


** affordable if relatives are the sellers 🤣


----------



## SlothRock

jonathan c said:


> ** affordable if relatives are the sellers 🤣


Hahaha seriously - I guess I mean “relatively” since I’ve seen it cost upwards of $800-$1000 for just a pair of some of these tubes on eBay! 

These are the listings I found which put these tubes at about $300 when buying 4 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265213378481?hash=item3dbff2ffb1:g:8F8AAOSwYp9g3Eo2

GEC 6080

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2846034127...5&toolid=10001&customid=l1bj3h6mpf01zlp100004

Melz


----------



## jonathan c

SlothRock said:


> Hahaha seriously - I guess I mean “relatively” since I’ve seen it cost upwards of $800-$1000 for just a pair of some of these tubes on eBay!
> 
> These are the listings I found which put these tubes at about $300 when buying 4
> 
> ...


Langrex is an established seller in the UK. The Melz are offered by a seller in the Ukraine. Expect delay (if not completion) of delivery…


----------



## David222

SlothRock said:


> Welp ladies and gentlemen I just bought my first tube amp decided to go near the top since I found a great deal on a Feliks Euforia AE here in the forum. Just shipped out today so hopefully getting it this week. I am gonna put some time on it with stock tubes of course, but am looking to get a sense of what would be a recommended first tube roll in an amp like this with Verite Closed and HD800S headphones.
> 
> I'm not looking to go crazy spending $1k on tubes but after doing a little research I found some GEC 6080's and Melz 6sn7 tubes that get good marks and seem to be "relatively" affordable lol. Thoughts from folks here with this amp or other 6sn7/6as7 amps?



There are ladies in here?


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
I bought another set of Nec/Channel Masters, this time from a different dealer.
Sophia Electric offered this tube at short notice as a limited edition for $150 each.
Just under their name.

The first Nec set came from the Indian tube seller.
Nos Audio tube or whatever his name is. You have reported.
His tubes were a bit worse than the set I have now.
Overall, the sound is a bit brighter and it took about 30 minutes to get it right.
I only have to give the amplifier 15 minutes to warm it up, the other 15 minutes are accompanied by a slight scratching that is still bearable.

The second set comes from CHannel Master, visually both are identical.
The values are better and came from China on Ebay.
I have no complaints about the sound, it does not scratch after warming up.
And this set is not as bright as the first set and also softer in sound overall. And also better than the first set.
The attacks, vocals are also more accurate, the details are also very good, the stage is medium-sized and the staging is also quite well presented.
So I like the second set of Channel Master better than the first if I'm honest.
It's a pretty good tube but not really worth the 150$ Sophia charges. I paid 80$ for 2 of them and matched. Has a nice smooth low end too by the way. 

As a side note, there are a few Ukrainian tube sellers selling a few Fotons on Ebay.
It's worth a look.
Bought another pair for $35 from 1952 as a backup.
The first pair is from 1960 - 1965.
It takes a little longer than usual but they have been shipped.
In Ukraine it took 2-3 days for the package to be picked up by the seller and recorded.
But it is on the way.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hmmmm.  I have a couple of Channel Master 6SN7 tubes.  Can you post pics showing the structure?


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,
here the Picture from the Channel master


----------



## Ripper2860

Thank you.  I'll dig mine out of the tube box and see how they match up.  If memory serves me correctly, they are the same -- especially the gray ladder plates.


----------



## Deleeh

Ripper2860 said:


> Thank you.  I'll dig mine out of the tube box and see how they match up.  If memory serves me correctly, they are the same -- especially the gray ladder plates.  :winkern:


Hello,
Yes, they are the same.
The Nec and Channel Master are identical.
I have not seen any difference.
I only heard that the Nec was supposedly made in Japan and the Channel Master in the USA.
But I am not sure.

I once read in the Nec history that they actually used to make tubes.
But later they sold the division.
But I don't know exactly to whom.


----------



## TLO

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> here the Picture from the Channel master


I believe Channel Master has never made tubes, they bought and rebranded tubes from other tube makers. Correct me if I am wrong, these are made by NEC. NEC tubes have embattled shape on one side of the plate.


----------



## Deleeh

TLO said:


> I believe Channel Master has never made tubes, they bought and rebranded tubes from other tube makers. Correct me if I am wrong, these are made by NEC. NEC tubes have embattled shape on one side of the plate.


Yes, it is possible that they bought up the remaining stock from Nec and rebranded it.
I once read something about Channel Master, that there was something going on with Nec as a subsidiary or something similar.
There was something there.
But the pipe itself hasn't changed.
It also looks very reasonably finished.
Also the first pair I bought, even if it has slight weaknesses from a sound perspective.


----------



## TLO

This is a pair of NEC 6FQ7 I have, note the embattled shape on one side of the plate.


----------



## Deleeh

Looks amazingly similar to the 6sn7.
Does the shape of the glass play a role at all, or is it purely the structure of the plate that is decisive, or even both?


----------



## David222

Sorry for dumb (tube newb) question. Just went to put my Zalytrons in...  noticed this light up like a Christmas bulb?

The AMP power is off. 

Had not seen this  before. These tubes are very new from Upscale Audio. 

Apprecaite any thoughts?  The other Zalytron (in the pair) does not do this. 

Normal?


----------



## Renexx

David222 said:


> Normal?


With some bad luck it will cause a short like this and fry your amp if you can't fit the pins into the adapter/socket.


----------



## David222

Renexx said:


> With some bad luck it will cause a short like this and fry your amp if you can't fit the pins into the adapter/socket.




The pins fit perfectly into the adapter/socket.  I do not leave it like this. 

I am asking if the light is normal - since the AMP is power-*off*

Had not noticed this before and was unsure what the cause is.


----------



## Renexx (Mar 30, 2022)

Can you guys help me with these tubes? I never saw like these before.

They were produced by MLBE in Belgium for German army.

 Are these worth a high asking price? Does anyone know how they sound?


----------



## HTSkywalker

SlothRock said:


> Oh god, I already know it's going to happen lol part of me hopes when I hook this bad boy up I don't feel/hear much of a difference from my solid state so I don't go down this tube rabbit hole but I'm feeling pretty confident it's gonna be great having one solid state and one tube amp to really round out my listening experience which means that eventually I'm gonna cave on these primo tubes 🙈


As far as I know, all Felix amps have an amp pre-amp loop going through the tube buffers. If you have a speaker setup you should try that. You won't regret it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

SlothRock said:


> Oh god, I already know it's going to happen lol part of me hopes when I hook this bad boy up I don't feel/hear much of a difference from my solid state so I don't go down this tube rabbit hole but I'm feeling pretty confident it's gonna be great having one solid state and one tube amp to really round out my listening experience which means that eventually I'm gonna cave on these primo tubes 🙈


It all depends on which SS amp you are comparing to, As a Violectric amp may sound more tubey than some tube amps.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

David222 said:


> Sorry for dumb (tube newb) question. Just went to put my Zalytrons in...  noticed this light up like a Christmas bulb?
> 
> The AMP power is off.
> 
> ...



What is glowing exactly?  Hard to make it out in the photo, but nothing should be glowing if the amp is off.  What happens if you disconnect power?


----------



## David222 (Mar 30, 2022)

.


----------



## David222

L0rdGwyn said:


> What is glowing exactly?  Hard to make it out in the photo, but nothing should be glowing if the amp is off.  What happens if you disconnect power?



Something inside the glass at the base of the tube was illuminating (photo) as soon as the pins made contact with the adapter/sockets.  

I just tried again this morning and was not able to repeat it (using the same tubes). 🤷‍♂️

Does the photo imply something (might) not be functioning properly with the AMP power mechanism? Since no voltage should be permitted to get to the sockets when AMP is power-off ?


----------



## JTbbb

David222 said:


> Something inside the glass at the base of the tube was illuminating (photo) as soon as the pins made contact with the adapter/sockets.
> 
> I just tried again this morning and was not able to repeat it (using the same tubes). 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Does the photo imply something (might) not be functioning properly with the AMP power mechanism?   Since no voltage should be permitted to get to the sockets when AMP is power-off ?


Most, if not all amplifiers will have capacitors in them, and these can hold their charge for some time after switching off. Perhaps you are inserting your tubes before these capacitors have discharged?


----------



## David222

JTbbb said:


> Most, if not all amplifiers will have capacitors in them, and these can hold their charge for some time after switching off. Perhaps you are inserting your tubes before these capacitors have discharged?



That is a good point… 

if AMP is power-off , but I had just used the AMP and was rolling to another set of tubes (which I was) … perhaps a little fire left in the belly that did not discharge fully. 

Interesting that only one of the two Zalytrons did this (glow) and in both sockets when I moved it around.


----------



## TLO

Renexx said:


> Can you guys help me with these tubes? I never saw like these before.
> 
> They were produced by MLBE in Belgium for German army.
> 
> Are these worth a high asking price? Does anyone know how they sound?


I believe CV1988 is only made by Brimar / STC. They are often labeled as Brimar, STC, Cossor, ITT, etc...there are many variants through the years of production, from black glass to smoke glass and then clear glass, flatten oval plate, rectangular or halo getter, brown or black base, top and bottom round mica. A unique feature on CV1988 is the small metal rings for the support rods on the top and bottom mica.
A very musical and balanced sounding tube, I will take this over the MELZ anytime...😅


----------



## L0rdGwyn

David222 said:


> Something inside the glass at the base of the tube was illuminating (photo) as soon as the pins made contact with the adapter/sockets.
> 
> I just tried again this morning and was not able to repeat it (using the same tubes). 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Does the photo imply something (might) not be functioning properly with the AMP power mechanism? Since no voltage should be permitted to get to the sockets when AMP is power-off ?



Could have been some debris maybe causing a temporary short with current being discharged from the PS cap, if it has gone away and assuming the tubes are working and there are no issues, I wouldn't worry about it.  If it was a dead short, you would know


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> I believe CV1988 is only made by Brimar / STC. They are often labeled as Brimar, STC, Cossor, ITT, etc...there are many variants through the years of production, from black glass to smoke glass and then clear glass, flatten oval plate, rectangular or halo getter, brown or black base, top and bottom round mica. A unique feature on CV1988 is the small metal rings for the support rods on the top and bottom mica.
> A very musical and balanced sounding tube, I will take this over the MELZ anytime...😅


The internals of the Brimar cv1988 and Mullard ecc32 are quite similar. I think they sound quite similar too.


----------



## David222

+1 to the comments above re: Brimar CV1988.  The KB/FB are amongst my favorite 6SN7 types.


----------



## Renexx

i have a pair of black glass brimar 6sn7gty on the way. Lets find out if they sound different than my black glass brimar 6asn7gt 



JTbbb said:


> The internals of the Brimar cv1988 and Mullard ecc32 are quite similar. I think they sound quite similar too.


Just switched from Mullard Ecc32 to my Brimars and i would say its different.

ECC32 is superior in technicalities and brimar has more sweet sound.


----------



## paradoxper

Quite a bit underwhelmed with the Treasures. A fairly balanced presentation but really unremarkable.


----------



## khashmi

paradoxper said:


> Quite a bit underwhelmed with the Treasures. A fairly balanced presentation but really unremarkable.


Curious: Did you run them in Gain or just the cathode follower stage?


----------



## paradoxper

khashmi said:


> Curious: Did you run them in Gain or just the cathode follower stage?


Yea, I do always start tubes off in the gain stage but they all follow cathode to complement the MELZ.

I wonder about QC because the Psvane is absolutely a better variant.

Shrugs.


----------



## khashmi

TLO said:


> I believe CV1988 is only made by Brimar / STC. They are often labeled as Brimar, STC, Cossor, ITT, etc...there are many variants through the years of production, from black glass to smoke glass and then clear glass, flatten oval plate, rectangular or halo getter, brown or black base, top and bottom round mica. A unique feature on CV1988 is the small metal rings for the support rods on the top and bottom mica.
> A very musical and balanced sounding tube, I will take this over the MELZ anytime...😅


I was going to mention the same—the CV1988 designation seems exclusive to Brimar based on my rudimentary knowledge.  However, considering the different variations that you mentioned, I’ve struggled to identify, which one to gun for.  And while I know it’s highly regarded, the fact that you like it over the Melz, is high praise indeed.


----------



## rawheadjim

I felt the same about those "treasures," I was not impressed at all.  I know they are supposed to take a long time to burn in, but they were not good at all compared to an average pair of $40 Sylvania's, or anything else I've tried so far for that matter.  After trying them in the gain side I switched them to the output side to give them a chance to burn in.  The top end immediately disappeared, with a pair that had good highs before.  Back in the box they go, I should put them in the classifieds since I doubt they will ever get used again.


----------



## cddc

rawheadjim said:


> I felt the same about those "treasures," I was not impressed at all.  I know they are supposed to take a long time to burn in, but they were not good at all compared to an average pair of $40 Sylvania's, or anything else I've tried so far for that matter.  After trying them in the gain side I switched them to the output side to give them a chance to burn in.  The top end immediately disappeared, with a pair that had good highs before.  Back in the box they go, I should put them in the classifieds since I doubt they will ever get used again.




Don't trust these tube "burn-in" bullschiits...I have never met a bad sounding tube turning good after so called "burn-in" 

I think the design and materials used have already determined the fundamentals of tube sound. The change that "burn-in" brings is subtle, most of the time you can't even discern the change, if any. On the contrary, a good sounding tube will immediately attract you, just like a Tung Sol VT-231 BG, as soon as I plugged in the tube for the first time, I knew immediately it's an excellent tube. But If you plug in a Philips ECG instead, you'll know it's a garbage right away 

BTW, I don't care about those new production poops, as long as there are enough NOS supply in that tube category (such has 6SN7, 12AU7, 12AX7, etc). New production tubes can only be considered if NOS tubes in that category are rare and/or too expensive (such as 300B, 845, etc).


----------



## Odin412

cddc said:


> Don't trust these tube "burn-in" bullschiits...I have never met a bad sounding tube turning good after so called "burn-in"
> 
> I think the design and materials used have already determined the fundamentals of tube sound. The change that "burn-in" brings is subtle, most of the time you can't even discern the change, if any. On the contrary, a good sounding tube will immediately attract you, just like a Tung Sol VT-231 BG, as soon as I plugged in the tube for the first time, I knew immediately it's an excellent tube. But If you plug in a Philips ECG instead, you'll know it's a garbage right away
> 
> BTW, I don't care about those new production poops, as long as there are enough NOS supply in that tube category (such has 6SN7, 12AU7, 12AX7, etc). New production tubes can only be considered if NOS tubes in that category are rare and/or too expensive (such as 300B, 845, etc).


I have the same experience with tube burn-in. If I don't like the tube right away (but after it warms up, of course), then burn-in doesn't help. On the other hand, if I like the tube initially, a bit of burn-in often makes it sound even better - at least to my ears. Basically, burn-in doesn't make bad tubes sound good, but it can make good tubes sound even better.


----------



## HTSkywalker

rawheadjim said:


> I felt the same about those "treasures," I was not impressed at all.  I know they are supposed to take a long time to burn in, but they were not good at all compared to an average pair of $40 Sylvania's, or anything else I've tried so far for that matter.  After trying them in the gain side I switched them to the output side to give them a chance to burn in.  The top end immediately disappeared, with a pair that had good highs before.  Back in the box they go, I should put them in the classifieds since I doubt they will ever get used again.


Tried them too, polite but nothing impressive. Mostly SS sounding.


----------



## HTSkywalker

cddc said:


> Don't trust these tube "burn-in" bullschiits...I have never met a bad sounding tube turning good after so called "burn-in"
> 
> I think the design and materials used have already determined the fundamentals of tube sound. The change that "burn-in" brings is subtle, most of the time you can't even discern the change, if any. On the contrary, a good sounding tube will immediately attract you, just like a Tung Sol VT-231 BG, as soon as I plugged in the tube for the first time, I knew immediately it's an excellent tube. But If you plug in a Philips ECG instead, you'll know it's a garbage right away
> 
> BTW, I don't care about those new production poops, as long as there are enough NOS supply in that tube category (such has 6SN7, 12AU7, 12AX7, etc). New production tubes can only be considered if NOS tubes in that category are rare and/or too expensive (such as 300B, 845, etc).


In fact Philips ECG and GE tubes benefit a lot from getting "burned" 😜
as they will be silent forever 🤣🤣


----------



## cddc

Some victim just bit the bait from the notorious Italian scammer* wege_high_tubes*...

These tubes are used, but are claimed as new / open box by the scumbag. What's worse, these Italian Marconi GTB's are most likely just rebranded RCA 6SN7GTB's, which can easily be found for $10-ish apiece.

Can't believe some newbie just spent US $1,750 on them. Must be a rich newbie who never does homework before buying stuff.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/254251362647


----------



## DougD (Mar 31, 2022)

deleted ... somehow I posted this in the wrong forum.


----------



## jonathan c

cddc said:


> Some victim just bit the bait from the notorious Italian scammer* wege_high_tubes*...
> 
> These tubes are used, but are claimed as new / open box by the scumbag. What's worse, these Italian Marconi GTB's are most likely just rebranded RCA 6SN7GTB's, which can easily be found for $10-ish apiece.
> 
> ...


….wedgie_high_tubes indeed….😮😩😖…


----------



## paradoxper (Apr 5, 2022)

Latest quad by a very nice Head-Fi'er @garyralph  whom did not pillage the piggybank.

This meets success which my compulsion calls boring.


----------



## paradoxper (Apr 6, 2022)

I quickly crawled the search function and only the B65 was really discussed. Anyone have any experience or point to anecdotal source of the Marconi/Osram 5U4?
The construction caught my eye.

EDIT: Disregard not 6SN7. Shouldn't have paid attention to the tags. Shame.

Still a very cool tube.


----------



## paradoxper (Apr 6, 2022)

Are these the solid plate variant. One seller seemed to have them and flatly refused to take clearer photos before my purchase.


I'll hold off. It seems the three-divot is one too many perhaps. I've never seen quite clear plate pictures of a solid plate, seems less ribbed.
It's interesting as they have the proper steel support and ridged ledge. Anyhow they'll be available if I clarify their authenticity later.

In other news, I purchased a couple Tesla 6CC10. They are pricey at $1k pair, very similar to the 1578 construction.
I had the RFT as a lasting choice but ultimately feel I can pass, they don't, say, stimulate the gut-check for any remark.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> Are these the solid plate variant. One seller seemed to have them and flatly refused to take clearer photos before my purchase.
> 
> 
> I'll hold off. It seems the three-divot is one too many perhaps. I've never seen quite clear plate pictures of a solid plate, seems less ribbed.
> ...


What is that supposed to be?  It has round plates.  So it's not a 1578 or 6SN7.  More likely a 6N9S or 6SL7.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> What is that supposed to be?  It has round plates.  So it's not a 1578 or 6SN7.  More likely a 6N9S or 6SL7.


It's a 6N12S.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> It's a 6N12S.


Ah, ok.  Thanks.


----------



## paradoxper

bcowen said:


> Ah, ok.  Thanks.


Everything is a Foton. It's like RCA 5692 vs 33S30SB. Such convolution. LOL


----------



## Isaacc7

I've been posting over in the Pentode thread but I think it's worth posting here too. I've been rolling different 6aq5 tubes in my amp and I'm shocked at how different/bad some combos can sound. All of them are high quality tubes and sound good in combination with others. For example, when I used a round plate black glass Tungsol 6c8g as the input tube with Mullard 6aq5 the sound quality was remarkable. Solid and rich is the best way I can describe it. When I put in Brimar 6aq5 tubes the sound fell apart. It almost sounded like there was something wrong with the amp. It was if the inout stage couldn't drive the output properly, thin distorted sound. 

Popped a tall 7n7 tube in the input and pow! Great sound was back! Harmonic clarity, really tight bass, just wonderful all around sound. The 7n7 with the Mullard 6aq5 was a smeary mess! Anyway, my point is that sometimes some tubes will work well in some combinations and poorly in others. Don't immediately write off a tube because it doesn't sound great when you first put it in. 

I don't know if I've mentioned it before but the Tungsol black glass round plate really live up to their reputation in my Supratek Cabernet preamp. Getting a 12v switch was the best thing I've done. I can actually afford the 12sn7, the 6sn7 has left my budget lol.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> Are you looking at the plates or the micas?


Good photo.

I'm a photography guy. Please tell me this photo was from a dedicated camera, and not from a phone camera. Lie if needed. ;-}


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> I've been posting over in the Pentode thread but I think it's worth posting here too. I've been rolling different 6aq5 tubes in my amp and I'm shocked at how different/bad some combos can sound. All of them are high quality tubes and sound good in combination with others. For example, when I used a round plate black glass Tungsol 6c8g as the input tube with Mullard 6aq5 the sound quality was remarkable. Solid and rich is the best way I can describe it. When I put in Brimar 6aq5 tubes the sound fell apart. It almost sounded like there was something wrong with the amp. It was if the inout stage couldn't drive the output properly, thin distorted sound.
> 
> Popped a tall 7n7 tube in the input and pow! Great sound was back! Harmonic clarity, really tight bass, just wonderful all around sound. The 7n7 with the Mullard 6aq5 was a smeary mess! Anyway, my point is that sometimes some tubes will work well in some combinations and poorly in others. Don't immediately write off a tube because it doesn't sound great when you first put it in.
> 
> I don't know if I've mentioned it before but the Tungsol black glass round plate really live up to their reputation in my Supratek Cabernet preamp. Getting a 12v switch was the best thing I've done. I can actually afford the 12sn7, the 6sn7 has left my budget lol.


What prompted you to choose the tall 7N7 to put in?


----------



## paradoxper (Apr 7, 2022)

Tubes will be the death of me. So crazy.

It didn't seem this particular showed up anywhere, anyone have experience with the Mullard CC32 CV181, I picked up a pair also ridiculously expensive but I haven't found too much about them through a few threads I generally crawl.

@JTbbb you ran one of these as a single, what did you think?


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> Tubes will be the death of me. So crazy.
> 
> It didn't seem this particular showed up anywhere, anyone have experience with the Mullard CC32 CV181, I picked up a pair also ridiculously expensive but I haven't found too much about them through a few threads I generally crawl.


Do you mean the ecc32’s? They are a wonderful sounding tube. Just be aware they are not a direct replacement for 6sn7’s electrically.


----------



## paradoxper

JTbbb said:


> Do you mean the ecc32’s? They are a wonderful sounding tube. Just be aware they are not a direct replacement for 6sn7’s electrically.


Oops. Yes, ECC32.

Oh, I already conferred to ensure they were acceptably applicable for my use.

They seem to be praised for a nice midrange and then criticized for bass, would you agree generally?


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> Oops. Yes, ECC32.
> 
> Oh, I already conferred to ensure they were acceptably applicable for my use.
> 
> They seem to be praised for a nice midrange and then criticized for bass, would you agree generally?


I thought the bass was fine. I partnered them with 5998’s in my Euforia and knew straight away they were my favourite.


----------



## paradoxper

JTbbb said:


> I thought the bass was fine. I partnered them with 5998’s in my Euforia and knew straight away they were my favourite.


Great. I'll run these with the 1578 and be thinking of you.


----------



## paradoxper

If we've discussed the acquisition of MELZ 1578 and you were waiting to hear back from me, please message me. I've had an influx with so many trades, and chats.
My source has a large stock and will be available quite soon.


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> If we've discussed the acquisition of MELZ 1578 and you were waiting to hear back from me, please message me. I've had an influx with so many trades, and chats.
> My source has a large stock and will be available quite soon.


Haha, I sold you my pair of MELZ 1578’s several weeks or more ago 😀


----------



## paradoxper

JTbbb said:


> Haha, I sold you my pair of MELZ 1578’s several weeks or more ago 😀


Is it MELZ affliction or affection. 🤣


----------



## khashmi

paradoxper said:


> Is it MELZ affliction or affection. 🤣


lol I say affection. But perhaps the respective significant others might find it more of an affliction.


----------



## paradoxper

khashmi said:


> lol I say affection. But perhaps the respective significant others might find it more of an affliction.


Oh, let them a word, I'll show them an infliction.


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> Oh, let them a word, I'll show them an infliction.


No no no, it’s Addiction 😀


----------



## paradoxper

JTbbb said:


> No no no, it’s Addiction 😀


It's the best of the worst.


----------



## bcowen

cgb3 said:


> Good photo.
> 
> I'm a photography guy. Please tell me this photo was from a dedicated camera, and not from a phone camera. *Lie if needed.* ;-}


LOL!  At the risk of _not_ lying, that wasn't my photo....it was one that @MacMan31 posted that I edited to add the arrows and text.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  At the risk of _not_ lying, that wasn't my photo....it was one that @MacMan31 posted that I edited to add the arrows and text.


😀😀😀


----------



## jonathan c

paradoxper said:


> Oh, let them a word, I'll show them an infliction.


If that does not work, time for deflection…😏


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> What prompted you to choose the tall 7N7 to put in?


It is one of my regular tubes I try. Aside from the tall 7n7 I also have short 7n7, brown base sylvania 6sn7gt, brown base Sylvania 6sl7gt, Sylvania JAN 6sl7gt, tall 7f7, RCA 6bx7, clear glass RCA 6sn7gta, Raytheon 6f8g, Sylvania grey glass 6f8g, Tungsol black glass 6c8g, and MOV cv1102. I tend to put in output tubes and then try different input tubes until I like what I hear. I would love to try a pair of 6j5 tubes but I don't think there's enough space for that adapter, at least the ones I have won't fit. 

I have moved on from the tall 7n7 and am now using the brown base Sylvania 6sn7 with the Brimar 6aq5. It has smoothed out a little bit of roughness. I'm still not really satisfied with the sound yet. Will give this combo a few more nights and see if it settles in.


----------



## rawheadjim

This looks like the right size for 6SN7 tube safe storage, although it's really pricey at $145 to store 22 tubes.  Cavities are all 3/4" wide 1 1/2" by 4 1/8".  Anyone know of something similar for less?
https://nalpak.com/pelican-storm-im2306-knife-case/


----------



## Pondoro

rawheadjim said:


> This looks like the right size for 6SN7 tube safe storage, although it's really pricey at $145 to store 22 tubes.  Cavities are all 3/4" wide 1 1/2" by 4 1/8".  Anyone know of something similar for less?
> https://nalpak.com/pelican-storm-im2306-knife-case/


Buy a 4-pistol case for $25 and a serrated steak knife for $5. Start carving.


----------



## rawheadjim

Thanks!  I found one at Harbor Freight for $63 that has pull out foam squares, I think that will do the job!


----------



## Pondoro

rawheadjim said:


> Thanks!  I found one at Harbor Freight for $63 that has pull out foam squares, I think that will do the job!


It will look nicer than my idea.


----------



## sam6550a

rawheadjim said:


> This looks like the right size for 6SN7 tube safe storage, although it's really pricey at $145 to store 22 tubes.  Cavities are all 3/4" wide 1 1/2" by 4 1/8".  Anyone know of something similar for less?
> https://nalpak.com/pelican-storm-im2306-knife-case/


It is vastly overkill in my estimation.


----------



## SlothRock

What about for something kinda like a tube display for 6sn7/as7? Any cool lookin tube holders people use for that? Just for the house


----------



## Isaacc7

sam6550a said:


> It is vastly overkill in my estimation.


I just use a cardboard box <shrug>.


----------



## Pondoro

sam6550a said:


> It is vastly overkill in my estimation.


If you relabel that $145 knife carrier as a tube carrier it would go for $600. Maybe more.


----------



## Ranger Ron

SlothRock said:


> What about for something kinda like a tube display for 6sn7/as7? Any cool lookin tube holders people use for that? Just for the house


Get a nice piece of wood, and a forstner bit the width of the tube pins and have at it. Space them however you’d wish.


----------



## HTSkywalker

sam6550a said:


> It is vastly overkill in my estimation.


Especially if you are storing GE tubes 😂😂


----------



## DTgill

Isaacc7 said:


> I just use a cardboard box <shrug>.


I keep mine in some Wally world Tupperware bins


----------



## cgb3

rawheadjim said:


> This looks like the right size for 6SN7 tube safe storage, although it's really pricey at $145 to store 22 tubes.  Cavities are all 3/4" wide 1 1/2" by 4 1/8".  Anyone know of something similar for less?
> https://nalpak.com/pelican-storm-im2306-knife-case/


Any type of portfolio that compresses will work to separate Valves.

Look in any office supply store, you'll find what you need.


----------



## Mr Trev (Apr 8, 2022)

How about something alongs the lines of a giant deformed skull. Whenever you want to swap tubes, you just pull a "tooth" - bonus points if the tube teeth light up
It could also double as a headphone stand


----------



## khashmi

SlothRock said:


> What about for something kinda like a tube display for 6sn7/as7? Any cool lookin tube holders people use for that? Just for the house


Like this?


----------



## SlothRock

khashmi said:


> Like this?


YES!!! Did you make this? I want this


----------



## khashmi

SlothRock said:


> YES!!! Did you make this? I want this


lol, Wish I had woodworking skills like this.  Had this commissioned from a member of another group.  Since he doesn’t do this full time, I am hesitant to provide his info publicly.  That said, I’ve already reached out to him and informed him that he has an interested party.  Once he confirms, I’ll PM you.


----------



## jonathan c

khashmi said:


> Like this?


Paint them all yellow: _voila, _Minions!


----------



## khashmi

jonathan c said:


> Paint them all yellow: _voila, _Minions!


LOL


----------



## SlothRock

khashmi said:


> lol, Wish I had woodworking skills like this.  Had this commissioned from a member of another group.  Since he doesn’t do this full time, I am hesitant to provide his info publicly.  That said, I’ve already reached out to him and informed him that he has an interested party.  Once he confirms, I’ll PM you.



You are a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you sir and if he’s up for making more he will have a customer


----------



## bcowen (Apr 9, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Paint them all yellow: _voila, _Minions!


So should I paint the boxes yellow?


----------



## DTgill

bcowen said:


> So should I paint the boxes yellow?


----------



## Deceneu808

Anybody willing to let go to one of these ? I know you got them


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> So should I paint the boxes yellow?


Nah. Just some green marker around the edges and you're set.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> So should I paint the boxes yellow?


just mark the GE filled boxes with "donate" or "garbage".


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> just mark the GE filled boxes with "donate" or "garbage".


If I use a green marker to write 'garbage', will it make them sound better less nasty?


----------



## sam6550a

Slade01 said:


> just mark the GE filled boxes with "donate" or "garbage".


I will gladly give the unwanted GE power tubes[6550, 5881, 6L6, 6V6, etc.], a good home.


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 9, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> just mark the GE filled boxes with "d*et*onate" or "*g*arbag*e*".


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> If I use a green marker to write 'garbage', will it make them sound better less nasty?


Can GEs / EGCs be ‘quantummed’? On second thought, they would gigasuck…😱


----------



## bcowen (Apr 9, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Can GEs / EGCs be ‘quantummed’? On second thought, they would gigasuck…😱


I don't know.  But if not, perhaps they can be refurbished. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1141331593...5&toolid=10001&customid=l1sf6hsks101zlp100004

I'm honestly surprised anyone buys _anything_ from this seller.  I messaged him several months ago and asked exactly how one "refurbishes" a tube.  He stated they clean and test them, and then proceeded to explain to me in grammatically butchered detail how that constitutes refurbishing.  LOL!  At least he's starting to pile up the negative feedback unlike another well-known charlatan on Ebay.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I don't know.  But if not, perhaps they can be refurbished.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/114133159362?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110002&algo=SPLICE.SOI&ao=1&asc=238114&meid=629481e500df45b99389e9cb780c457d&pid=101196&rk=8&rkt=12&sd=113909230719&itm=114133159362&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=PromotedSellersOtherItemsV2WithMLRv3&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum:114133159362629481e500df45b99389e9cb780c457d|enc:AQAGAAABECtrZQ7uyU6NyRWMuc0OogoSa%2FUIDys%2F02w7jR10vOAtsme4H%2FWtNNIqPw7y41JVKU160f4BSLDpiLQP5x3LYpZJSIYIu5coAZDzzwWmq26A3JIe357y13%2FvDOTL%2FRKVWjDFX2uCgqoXQLBLlK8LGx2xqiDarA1KHL%2FONlZPhGCiU57kMPkxOItGzVyYSsIKLRTzAWXaf3usAijz3l%2BFrx2P0%2BVkrVwaoSdCCBTYFJOJrTIUF5xNVTr3ZSaiKX4qRV%2BkJIM5Xs%2Ftn0ZlbIyz5JB%2B45R6MMT%2BvGaSt%2BcLsfIoO2WbwT3d7tfSpNIM%2BlW75dd0cctGuIGfSBKo17jQ66dVooVlfSDGtiSFu6BJ0tLu|ampidL_CLK|clp:2047675&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338093425&toolid=10001&customid=l1sf6hsks101zlp100004
> 
> I'm honestly surprised anyone buys _anything_ from this seller.  I messaged him several months ago and asked exactly how one "refurbishes" a tube.  He stated they clean and test them, and then proceeded to explain to me in grammatically butchered detail how that constitutes refurbishing.  LOL!  At least he's starting to pile up the negative feedback unlike another well-known charlatan on Ebay.


I especially like the part about the ZElectrontube Suppliers. As if Raytheon etc are still making tubes and sending them direct to this 🤡…


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> So should I paint the boxes yellow?


OMG 🤩🤩Treasure chests


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> So should I paint the boxes yellow?


I have several hundred pounds of Osmocote.

Let's plant this bevy of tubes, and see what comes up in the spring.


----------



## jonathan c

cgb3 said:


> I have several hundred pounds of Osmocote.
> 
> Let's plant this bevy of tubes, and see what comes up in the spring.


I hope that the GEs and ECGs are not perennials….Tubevid-22 !! ….


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> OMG 🤩🤩Treasure chests


Treasure for pleasure, trash for cash…😏


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I hope that the GEs and ECGs are not perennials….Tubevid-22 !! ….


Probably more like a fungus...


----------



## hmscott (Apr 11, 2022)

I've been fortunate and found 6 new 1944/45 RCA VT-231 6SN7GT Grey Smoked Glass, at varying prices, these arrived first:

Tested on a Hickok 539C. Results: Tube 1: 3200/3500 // Tube 2: 3600/3400  [New = 2523/2523 or greater] - $150 for both:




And I'll need some help identifying these, I think they are 3 Melz 1578's, shipped this weekend from Ukraine, all three have "mouse-ears", 2 with perforated plates,  and one single solid smooth plate, initial photo's:


----------



## HTSkywalker

hmscott said:


> I've been fortunate and found 6 new 1944/45 RCA VT-231 6SN7GT Grey Smoked Glass, at varying prices, these arrived first:
> 
> Tested on a Hickok 539C. Results: Tube 1: 3200/3500 // Tube 2: 3600/3400  [New = 2523/2523 or greater] - $150 for both:
> 
> ...


Nice catch 👍


----------



## paradoxper

hmscott said:


> I've been fortunate and found 6 new 1944/45 RCA VT-231 6SN7GT Grey Smoked Glass, at varying prices, these arrived first:
> 
> Tested on a Hickok 539C. Results: Tube 1: 3200/3500 // Tube 2: 3600/3400  [New = 2523/2523 or greater] - $150 for both:
> 
> ...


Mmm. Great hunt!


----------



## Mr Trev (Apr 11, 2022)

hmscott said:


> I've been fortunate and found 6 new 1944/45 RCA VT-231 6SN7GT Grey Smoked Glass, at varying prices, these arrived first:
> 
> Tested on a Hickok 539C. Results: Tube 1: 3200/3500 // Tube 2: 3600/3400  [New = 2523/2523 or greater] - $150 for both:
> 
> ...


My last order from Ukraine seems to be a casuality of war. Hasn't had a tracking update since Feb. 19. I suppose considering the situation, I _really_ shouldn't complain


----------



## hmscott (Apr 11, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> My last order from Ukraine seems to be a causality of war. Hasn't had a tracking update since Feb. 19. I suppose considering the situation, I _really_ shouldn't complain


The package has made it to Kyiv from Dnipro:  03928 KYIV MMPO UKRAINE 11.04.2022

What was the last postal station / location your package was tracked?


----------



## Mr Trev

hmscott said:


> The package has made it to Kyiv from Dnipro:  03928 KYIV MMPO UKRAINE 11.04.2022
> 
> What was the last postal station / location your package was tracked?


2022-02-19 23:28
UKRAINE, KYIV MMPO, The postal item has been processed at the office of exchange and handed over for further transportation to the destination country

Last time I ordered tubes from Ukraine <different seller>, it took a week or so to get a notice it landed in Canada after the same notification.


----------



## hmscott (Apr 12, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> 2022-02-19 23:28
> UKRAINE, KYIV MMPO, The postal item has been processed at the office of exchange and handed over for further transportation to the destination country
> 
> Last time I ordered tubes from Ukraine <different seller>, it took a week or so to get a notice it landed in Canada after the same notification.


My last Ukraine package to arrive after leaving Ukraine took about 8 days total shipping time.

Now, my current package in transit says the same as your tracking:  "The postal item has been processed at the office of exchange and handed over for further transportation to the destination country"


Spoiler: UKRAINE .Dnipro UNITED STATES



https://track.ukrposhta.ua/tracking_EN.html



There are probably far more important items in competition for shipping space in both directions, I would imagine our packages are pretty low on the priority.

If your package left Ukraine you should be able to ask Canada Post to put a backtrace on it and find out where it is stuck.  It might be stuck in Canadian customs too.  It has been more than long enough to qualify for special attention to recover it or the lost parcel insurance claim on it.

I've had to dislodge packages several times over the years, so far only once during the pandemic - I had a Fedex package go to the wrong hub and sit there for a couple of days, so I got on the phone for a couple of hours to track it down to the moving unit it was sitting in - that wasn't moving.  I got the package the next day


----------



## rawheadjim

I found this from Harbor Freight for $16.99, it will hold at least 48 6SN7 or equivalent size tubes including the drawer at the bottom.  Pretty cheap per unit storage that won't take up much space.  You could label the front of the drawers if you need to.
https://www.harborfreight.com/mater...-organizer-with-full-length-drawer-94375.html


----------



## paradoxper

Mr Trev said:


> 2022-02-19 23:28
> UKRAINE, KYIV MMPO, The postal item has been processed at the office of exchange and handed over for further transportation to the destination country
> 
> Last time I ordered tubes from Ukraine <different seller>, it took a week or so to get a notice it landed in Canada after the same notification.


I have a couple packages that were handed over and likely halted and consequently lost. Some with slow Progress.


----------



## Deleeh

I have ordered the Fotons from Ukraine 2 times.
The first time, the package was processed at customs and then the status was not updated for days.
When it was in the destination country it was updated.

Now the 2nd time it is similar, processed at customs and not updated since the 4th of april.

Since it was already at customs I assume it is safe and has been forwarded, just not updated.

It could also be that it is no longer updated and suddenly it is there.
Or it may be updated in the destination country.

You also have to consider that some customs countries don't have a sophisticated system as we know it.

According to Ebay, my delivery date is between 14.4 and 20.5, so you can't do anything until the date arrives.
As a rule, it usually arrived 3 weeks before the expiry date.
But it doesn't have to be, it can also be longer.

Especially in a country where there is war, I think that parcels are only forwarded within a certain time window that is not known beforehand.


----------



## lostrockets

soo... just getting a feel for a few 6sn6gtb tubes on my antares stax amp. 

i found the GE to be my least favorite, just doesnt sound that good to me... new production EH sound similar to the Sylvania...  and the RCA and Sylvania chrome tops are my favorite beautifully warm and lush, especially the RCA (red label). 

sooo.. to get a few more tube flavors in, i was consideromg getting some nos tung sol or the rca silver label (older)

has anyone heard both silver and red/orange label rca? any difference in sound? alternatively, other suggestions to round out my tube collection?


----------



## Isaacc7

A while back I had asked if Sylvania ever made a round plate 6/12sn7 to match the round plate 6/12j5gt they made. Since the *gt5 is just half of a *sn7 I thought they should exist. I still haven't found any of those but I have found the 12ah7gt! It is a round plate tube that seems to be similar to the 6sn7 but with a different pin out. Apparently there was a 6ah7 but they are relatively rare. The 12ah7gt is super cheap, I might pick some of them up from various manufacturers and see what they have to offer.


----------



## DenverW

lostrockets said:


> soo... just getting a feel for a few 6sn6gtb tubes on my antares stax amp.
> 
> i found the GE to be my least favorite, just doesnt sound that good to me... new production EH sound similar to the Sylvania...  and the RCA and Sylvania chrome tops are my favorite beautifully warm and lush, especially the RCA (red label).
> 
> ...


Rather than a different flavor in RCA, which I couldn't tell too much of a difference between, perhaps some Ken-rad, National Union, or tung-sol to get a different feel?


----------



## cgb3

lostrockets said:


> soo... just getting a feel for a few 6sn6gtb tubes on my antares stax amp.
> 
> i found the GE to be my least favorite, just doesnt sound that good to me... new production EH sound similar to the Sylvania...  and the RCA and Sylvania chrome tops are my favorite beautifully warm and lush, especially the RCA (red label).
> 
> ...


That's a shame. Bowen, a favorite tube Oligarch here at Head-Fi swears by GE tubes.


----------



## Pondoro

I’m still seeing tubes on the bay from Ukraine and Russia. I’m thinking of ordering a cheap Ukrainian tube just as an adventure. Any suggested brands or sellers?


----------



## lostrockets

cgb3 said:


> That's a shame. Bowen, a favorite tube Oligarch here at Head-Fi swears by GE tubes.


Everyone has different tastes, whys it a shame?


----------



## bcowen

cgb3 said:


> That's a shame. B*c*owen, a favorite tube Oligarch here at Head-Fi swears by *at* GE tubes.


FTFY.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> A while back I had asked if Sylvania ever made a round plate 6/12sn7 to match the round plate 6/12j5gt they made. Since the *gt5 is just half of a *sn7 I thought they should exist. I still haven't found any of those but I have found the 12ah7gt! It is a round plate tube that seems to be similar to the 6sn7 but with a different pin out. Apparently there was a 6ah7 but they are relatively rare. The 12ah7gt is super cheap, I might pick some of them up from various manufacturers and see what they have to offer.


Nice find!  I can't use a 12v tube myself, but I saw this 6-volter on Ebay.  It doesn't test all that well so I'll pass on it, but I'll keep my eyes open for more. Let us know what you hear if you get some yourself.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383781987983?hash=item595b30668f:g:OHUAAOSwrptfl1az


----------



## jonathan c

lostrockets said:


> I found the GE to be my least favorite, just doesnt sound that good to me...


Of GE tubes, the most civil assessment that I have encountered…


----------



## cddc

Isaacc7 said:


> A while back I had asked if Sylvania ever made a round plate 6/12sn7 to match the round plate 6/12j5gt they made. Since the *gt5 is just half of a *sn7 I thought they should exist. I still haven't found any of those but I have found the 12ah7gt! It is a round plate tube that seems to be similar to the 6sn7 but with a different pin out. Apparently there was a 6ah7 but they are relatively rare. The 12ah7gt is super cheap, I might pick some of them up from various manufacturers and see what they have to offer.




If you're interested in finding round plate Sylvania tubes, check out 6SL7's, they are mostly round plate.


----------



## cddc

But I don't think the shape of plate makes much of a difference in tube sound, maybe a tiny bit, but the major determinant should be the materials used in plates / cathodes / grids.


----------



## Isaacc7

cddc said:


> If you're interested in finding round plate Sylvania tubes, check out 6SL7's, they are mostly round plate.


I do like the Sylvania 6sl7 tubes. I also have Tungsol 6c8g tubes for a round plate fix lol.


----------



## cddc

Isaacc7 said:


> I do like the Sylvania 6sl7 tubes. I also have Tungsol 6c8g tubes for a round plate fix lol.




Have you had a round plate fix from GE, say, a GE 6SL7 round plate?


----------



## Isaacc7

cddc said:


> Have you had a round plate fix from GE, say, a GE 6SL7 round plate?


I actually own some but have never tried them. I know the running gag here is that GE tubes are irredeemably bad and certainly based on my experience with the 6sn7 I have from them I think it is well deserved. I do have a pair of GE 6ez5 tubes that I think sound great though. I'm also looking forward to hearing the GE 6b46ga tubes I have. They have an enormous plate structure quite unlike their 807 tubes. SO I'm not totally down on GE tubes although I haven't had any luck with the small signal tubes yet. 

I've had s more difficult time getting 6sl7 tubes to work in my amp. I'm guessing that it's just too much gain but I don't really know. Anyway, that's the real reason I haven't tried the GE 6sl7 yet. I'll probably get around to it eventually.


----------



## cddc

Isaacc7 said:


> I actually own some but have never tried them. I know the running gag here is that GE tubes are irredeemably bad and certainly based on my experience with the 6sn7 I have from them I think it is well deserved. I do have a pair of GE 6ez5 tubes that I think sound great though. I'm also looking forward to hearing the GE 6b46ga tubes I have. They have an enormous plate structure quite unlike their 807 tubes. SO I'm not totally down on GE tubes although I haven't had any luck with the small signal tubes yet.
> 
> I've had s more difficult time getting 6sl7 tubes to work in my amp. I'm guessing that it's just too much gain but I don't really know. Anyway, that's the real reason I haven't tried the GE 6sl7 yet. I'll probably get around to it eventually.




Yep, 6SL7 has a very high gain of 70 (vs. 20 from 6SN7).

I'm not so familiar with the pentodes that you mentioned as I'm not a pentode fan, but I wish you good luck there.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Pondoro said:


> I’m still seeing tubes on the bay from Ukraine and Russia. I’m thinking of ordering a cheap Ukrainian tube just as an adventure. Any suggested brands or sellers?


Won't matter much as the package won't normally reach you 😐
Butt definitely a nice adventure


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> cgb3 said:
> 
> 
> > That's a shame. B*c*owen, a favorite tube Oligarch here all users at Head-Fi swears by *at* GE tubes.
> ...


FTFY 😃😃


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Pondoro said:


> I’m still seeing tubes on the bay from Ukraine and Russia. I’m thinking of ordering a cheap Ukrainian tube just as an adventure. Any suggested brands or sellers?





HTSkywalker said:


> Won't matter much as the package won't normally reach you 😐
> Butt definitely a nice adventure



I just received a package of twelve 6E6P-E from Ukraine.  I would check with the sellers and see if they are still shipping internationally.  Granted, these tubes are pretty cheap, probably wouldn't risk on something expensive.


----------



## cgb3

lostrockets said:


> Everyone has different tastes, whys it a shame?


Inside joke. BCowen is very outspoken on his dislike of GE tubes.


----------



## Slade01

cgb3 said:


> Inside joke. BCowen is very outspoken on his dislike of GE tubes.


Yup.  I think I may have asked @bcowen what GE stood for one time a while ago, and he told me: "Generally Erroneous" or was it "Generally Earsplitting"...something to that effect anyways...


----------



## FLTWS

cgb3 said:


> Inside joke. BCowen is very outspoken on his dislike of GE tubes.


No! Really?


----------



## SlothRock

Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass sounding like a dream


----------



## jonathan c

SlothRock said:


> Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass sounding like a dream


Looking like a dream, too!


----------



## HTSkywalker

SlothRock said:


> Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass sounding like a dream


Nice Euforia 🙂🙂


----------



## Isaacc7

SlothRock said:


> Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass sounding like a dream


I paid an extra $500 to be able to switch between 6sn7 and 12sn7 tube in my preamp. I hesitated but it ended up being a good investment. I love my Tungsol round plate black glass 12sn7 tubes. I have been able to acquire 3 sets of them at a very reasonable price. I will have the same option on my amp so I can run them in both my preamp and amp! The 12v option has also let me buy the so called Sylvania bad boys at a much reduced cost. I can also use the 12sx7 which wasn’t offered in 6v. My amp will also allow me to use more exotic tubes like the 2c50 and cv1102 in the inputs and Gu50, 12av5, and even n34 for output tubes.


----------



## cddc

It's just simply supply and demand. Most amps use 6.3v heaters, so the 6.3v version tubes are normally in much higher demand. While few amps use 12.6v or 25v heaters, so there is much less demand in the 12.6v or 25v version tubes. 

Same thing can be said on B65 and B63, the 6.3v B65 is way more expensive than the 12.6v B63.


----------



## Isaacc7

cddc said:


> It's just simply supply and demand. Most amps use 6.3v heaters, so the 6.3v version tubes are normally in much higher demand. While few amps use 12.6v or 25v heaters, so there is much less demand in the 12.6v or 25v version tubes.
> 
> Same thing can be said on B65 and B63, the 6.3v B65 is way more expensive than the 12.6v B63.


Exactly! If you are having equipment made for you I highly recommend getting a 12v option so that you can take advantage of the lower costs.


----------



## leftside

I remember purchasing this military spec ECC32/CV181 from 1946 many years ago from eBay “untested”. I was just happy when I received it that it even “worked”. Imagine my surprise when I finally got around to testing it this evening and saw these results. I expected test results far lower.


----------



## lostrockets

leftside said:


> I remember purchasing this military spec ECC32/CV181 from 1946 many years ago from eBay “untested”. I was just happy when I received it that it even “worked”. Imagine my surprise when I finally got around to testing it this evening and saw these results. I expected test results far lower.


What kind of tester is that?


----------



## L0rdGwyn

lostrockets said:


> What kind of tester is that?



Amplitrex AT1000.


----------



## whirlwind

leftside said:


> I remember purchasing this military spec ECC32/CV181 from 1946 many years ago from eBay “untested”. I was just happy when I received it that it even “worked”. Imagine my surprise when I finally got around to testing it this evening and saw these results. I expected test results far lower.



Fantastic!

 The tone of those tubes is pretty hard to beat for my ears.

I have never bought a NOS ECC32, because of the price.  I figure I am going to be listening to it anyway, and if they test pretty good they should last a good long life.


----------



## cddc

I have to copy&paste what I wrote in the Woo WA2 thread yesterday, in case some folks think ECC32 and 6SN7 are equivalent and can replace each other without problems. They are really not equivalent, replacing 6SN7 with ECC32 can possibly fry amp transformers, which can lead to casualties. 




cddc said:


> Many folks mistakenly treat ECC32 the same as 6SN7, but they are really not!
> 
> ECC32 draws 0.95A heater current (vs 0.6A from 6SN7), so replacing 6SN7 with ECC32 can potentially overtax the transformer which can lead to transformer failure if there is not enough redundant capacity.
> 
> ...



On WA2 folks said you cannot replace 6SN7 with ECC32.


----------



## leftside

whirlwind said:


> Fantastic!
> 
> The tone of those tubes is pretty hard to beat for my ears.
> 
> I have never bought a NOS ECC32, because of the price.  I figure I am going to be listening to it anyway, and if they test pretty good they should last a good long life.


Yep - "test pretty good" is good enough for me. If they test as NOS I feel guilty about "spoiling" 80 year old antiques, but hey this is what they were made for... so I see both sides to the argument.

From my various tests of tubes, some that I've used quite a lot, I'm finding these headphone amps we have don't really use up the tubes too much. Certainly not as much as my main amps.


----------



## leftside

cddc said:


> I have to copy&paste what I wrote in the Woo WA2 thread yesterday, in case some folks think ECC32 and 6SN7 are equivalent and can replace each other without problems. They are really not equivalent, replacing 6SN7 with ECC32 can possibly fry amp transformers, which can lead to casualties.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quite a few of us do have amps that can take an ECC32 in place of a 6SN7, but yes, it's always good to check.


----------



## Mr Trev

cddc said:


> I have to copy&paste what I wrote in the Woo WA2 thread yesterday, in case some folks think ECC32 and 6SN7 are equivalent and can replace each other without problems. They are really not equivalent, replacing 6SN7 with ECC32 can possibly fry amp transformers, which can lead to casualties.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think part of the confusion is that Psvane has a tube that they try to pass off as ecc32 (cv181 to be specific), but mostly has the same specs as a 6sn7
https://vivatubes.com/new-psvane-cv181-t-mkii-6sn7-classic-vacuum-tube/


----------



## cddc

Mr Trev said:


> I think part of the confusion is that Psvane has a tube that they try to pass off as ecc32 (cv181 to be specific), but mostly has the same specs as a 6sn7
> https://vivatubes.com/new-psvane-cv181-t-mkii-6sn7-classic-vacuum-tube/




Agree, the guys from Psvane are idiots, they are trying to market their new production 6SN7 tube as ECC32/CV181.


----------



## paradoxper

The succession is complete.

MELZ 1578 with WE300B is ridiculous. 

One more song is just not enough.


----------



## Magol79

Are there any warmer sounding 6SN7 tubes that you recommend, that are not unobtanium. 
I like my Shuguang Black Treasure for their warmth, but my pair is slightly microphonic. 
My Tung Sols and CBS tubes are totally quiet, but have a leaner sound.
How are the new Linlai 6SN7s?


----------



## paradoxper

Magol79 said:


> Are there any warmer sounding 6SN7 tubes that you recommend, that are not unobtanium.
> I like my Shuguang Black Treasure for their warmth, but my pair is slightly microphonic.
> My Tung Sols and CBS tubes are totally quiet, but have a leaner sound.
> How are the new Linlai 6SN7s?


RCA grey fit the bill wonderfully so.


----------



## Magol79

paradoxper said:


> RCA grey fit the bill wonderfully so.


Thanks, will check them out.


----------



## khashmi

Magol79 said:


> Thanks, will check them out.


Second the RCA Grey Glass is a great alternative. The Ken Rads black glass are also excellent.


----------



## bcowen

paradoxper said:


> The succession is complete.
> 
> MELZ 1578 with WE300B is ridiculous.
> 
> One more song is just not enough.


Very nice!  Pretty much the uber of both tube types there.


----------



## jonathan c

paradoxper said:


> The succession is complete.
> 
> MELZ 1578 with WE300B is ridiculous.
> 
> One more song is just not enough.


_Ne plus ultra … 🧎…_


----------



## Renexx

Hey guys,

I got some nice additions to my collection. Wondering which dates these were made. Can somebody explain the date codes please ?

Brimar CV1988 KB/FE 7236

GEC QA2408 KC 4


----------



## rishabhgkp

Hey,
Any links for the preferred Sylvania VT231 1940s, reasonably priced from a preferred seller/dealer, or any one willing to let go from his collection?


----------



## JTbbb

Renexx said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I got some nice additions to my collection. Wondering which dates these were made. Can somebody explain the date codes please ?
> 
> ...


Those Brimars are 1972 week 36


----------



## JTbbb

Hello all,

Need some help with these. Maybe dumb question, they are Kenrads? And what date?

Thanks


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Need some help with these. Maybe dumb question, they are Kenrads? And what date?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, CKR is Ken-Rad. I never get to know what is the first letter stands for but the second numeric is the year. Here E3 is 1943. I have Ken-Rad VT-231s with date code, B3, H3, K3 and they are all from 1943.


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> Yes, CKR is Ken-Rad. I never get to know what is the first letter stands for but the second numeric is the year. Here E3 is 1943. I have Ken-Rad VT-231s with date code, B3, H3, K3 and they are all from 1943.


Thanks very much, it was a bit of a gamble buying these as untested, and not matched. But I gave the pins a clean, put them in my Euforia AE, plugged a cheap pair of headphones in, just in case, and now on my Senn’s and Focal’s. Sounding wonderful.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Magol79 said:


> Are there any warmer sounding 6SN7 tubes that you recommend, that are not unobtanium.
> I like my Shuguang Black Treasure for their warmth, but my pair is slightly microphonic.
> My Tung Sols and CBS tubes are totally quiet, but have a leaner sound.
> How are the new Linlai 6SN7s?


I think the Rogers branded tubes out of Canada that look very similar to Sylvania 6SN7WGT’s are very warm and robust sounding. They can be found relatively cheap still.


----------



## toddc2 (Apr 22, 2022)

...deleted Newbie error in reply...


----------



## toddc2

rishabhgkp said:


> Hey,
> Any links for the preferred Sylvania VT231 1940s, reasonably priced from a preferred seller/dealer, or any one willing to let go from his collection?


I have a ordered these from Brent Jessee before, he has a couple of matched pairs in stock:

http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm

Good luck, these are excellent tubes and pretty rare these days.

Todd


----------



## leftside

Renexx said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I got some nice additions to my collection. Wondering which dates these were made. Can somebody explain the date codes please ?
> 
> ...


1954 and 1972. What are the tubes on the left? B65?


----------



## Renexx

leftside said:


> 1954 and 1972. What are the tubes on the left? B65?


Thank you,  AQ2408  should be B65 premium quality.

I didn't expect Brimar to produce 6sn7gtys until the 70s. American manufacturers were producing GTBs in the 50s already.


----------



## lumdicks (Apr 23, 2022)

Renexx said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I got some nice additions to my collection. Wondering which dates these were made. Can somebody explain the date codes please ?
> 
> ...


This QA2408 is really good!


----------



## whirlwind

JTbbb said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Need some help with these. Maybe dumb question, they are Kenrads? And what date?
> 
> Thanks


Nice. Great tubes.


----------



## TLO

I am looking to make some upgrades on my tube amp LM508IA, hope someone who is familiar with tube sockets could offer some great advises. Currently, the amp has the stock sockets for 1 X 6SL7, 2 X 6SN7, 2 X 300B, 2 X 805. Planning to change the 3 X 8 pin octal and 2 X UX4 but leave the 805. Below are the stock sockets and you can see they are not of the best quality or design.







Please advise what kind of clip design and brand I should be looking for as in built quality and reliability. BTW, I roll 6SL7 n 6SN7 regularly, perhaps up to 10 times per month. Thanks in advance!!!


----------



## Thaddy

This morning I lost pair of 1948 RCA Victor's.  I had just listened to them last week, but this morning the right channel was silent.  As I was getting the right tube out, I heard a bit of a crunching sound.  Uh oh.  It probably had a micro crack and I must have put some pressure on the glass installing the tube.  I'll miss the pair, they sounded great


----------



## Patswalker

Semi-noob question that seems to stump some tube pros...

On a tube amp I have, the Tor Roger, on the site it states....

Tube: 6N8S (analogue 6SN7) (not hybrid)
and 
Rectifier: 6C5S (analogue 6X5GT)

Does anyone know if this means that it is safe to use 6SN7 tubes and 6X5GT as replacements? The company is not able to respond super fast these days, they're in Ukraine. 

I reached out to Brent Jessee and he's not sure what is meant by "analogue 6SN7 (not hybrid)" or "analogue 6X5GT" and advised I reach out to the Tor company which I did but, again, they're in Ukraine so I'm not expecting a reply any time soon. 

So if anyone here has any experience with the Tor Roger and tube rolling on it, if anyone here has any idea if it's safe the use 6SN7 and 6X5GT as replacements, I would very much appreciate some advice.


----------



## fuhransahis

Patswalker said:


> Semi-noob question that seems to stump some tube pros...
> 
> On a tube amp I have, the Tor Roger, on the site it states....
> 
> ...



I'm very much a tube noob but I have the Tor Balanced and have been using RCA 6SN7GT tubes with it for a few months and has been great with it.

That said if anyone can clarify that'd be helpful so we don't fry the amps/tubes


----------



## Patswalker

fuhransahis said:


> I'm very much a tube noob but I have the Tor Balanced and have been using RCA 6SN7GT tubes with it for a few months and has been great with it.
> 
> That said if anyone can clarify that'd be helpful so we don't fry the amps/tubes


Nice. I love it so far. I can say that I did call thetubestore.com about 10 min ago and they told me that it is totally fine to use 6SN7 and 6X5GT. The guy I spoke to told me that the confusion I had, the designation of "analogue" was in a translation between Ukrainian and American English. This makes total sense to me. I have not heard back from Tor Audio, unfortuantely I'm not expecting to for a while, but so far this is a point in the right direction. Thank you also for your reposting of my post, form the replies I hope to see here I'm hoping to get a better low down on how and where to aim these wonderful amps.


----------



## rawheadjim

My Freya+ does not list 6X5GT as an equivalent for 6SN7's, they only say you can also use 6N8S, 5692, 6SL7, or 6N9S.  It would be nice if I could use 6X5GT's since they seem to be dirt cheap on ebay!


----------



## bcowen

rawheadjim said:


> My Freya+ does not list 6X5GT as an equivalent for 6SN7's, they only say you can also use 6N8S, 5692, 6SL7, or 6N9S.  It would be nice if I could use 6X5GT's since they seem to be dirt cheap on ebay!


The 6X5GT is a rectifier tube and is not remotely compatible with a dual-triode 6SN7.  Do _not_ put one in your Freya. The 6X5GT is very close to the Russian 6C5S though and can be used as a substitute for it.  (do not confuse the Russian 6C5S with the US-designated 6C5, which is a single triode tube that preceded the much better known 6J5).

The Russian 6N8S can be substituted for a 6SN7 with no problem. They are not identical electrically, but are so close that there's no issue swapping one for the other.

Or the TL;DR version:

6N8S = 6SN7 (dual triodes)
6C5S = 6X5GT (full wave rectifiers)
('equal' meaning close enough that substituting is not an issue)


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The 6X5GT is a rectifier tube and is not remotely compatible with a dual-triode 6SN7.  Do _not_ put one in your Freya. The 6X5GT is very close to the Russian 6C5S though and can be used as a substitute for it.  (do not confuse the Russian 6C5S with the US-designated 6C5, which is a single triode tube that preceded the much better known 6J5).
> 
> The Russian 6N8S can be substituted for a 6SN7 with no problem. They are not identical electrically, but are so close that there's no issue swapping one for the other.
> 
> ...


Hear Hear


----------



## rawheadjim

Got it, thanks!  I wasn't thinking it would work or I should go off the approved list in the Freya manual, but now I know why.


----------



## Ranger Ron

rawheadjim said:


> Got it, thanks!  I wasn't thinking it would work or I should go off the approved list in the Freya manual, but now I know why.


If you’re really feeling the urge to try different tube types I highly recommend the use of 6F8G with adapters. Your Freya might also accept 6C8G which are relatively cheap still.


----------



## rawheadjim

I've been having fun with some 6SL7's, you have to dial it up to about 3:00 instead of 2:00 but some of them sound very nice.  They run about 1/2 the cost of what a similar 6SN7 goes for, on average.


----------



## LoryWiv

TLO said:


> I am looking to make some upgrades on my tube amp LM508IA, hope someone who is familiar with tube sockets could offer some great advises. Currently, the amp has the stock sockets for 1 X 6SL7, 2 X 6SN7, 2 X 300B, 2 X 805. Planning to change the 3 X 8 pin octal and 2 X UX4 but leave the 805. Below are the stock sockets and you can see they are not of the best quality or design.
> 
> 
> 
> Please advise what kind of clip design and brand I should be looking for as in built quality and reliability. BTW, I roll 6SL7 n 6SN7 regularly, perhaps up to 10 times per month. Thanks in advance!!!


Headfi-er @Deyan is an adapter builder of high quality and a pleasure to interact with. Worth reaching out.


----------



## TLO (Apr 28, 2022)

LoryWiv said:


> Headfi-er @Deyan is an adapter builder of high quality and a pleasure to interact with. Worth reaching out.


Thanks for the advise but I am looking for advise on tube socket, and not tube adapter.
Anyway, after some researches, it seems Belton and Omron are highly recommended.


----------



## pravous

I used this Belton octal socket for my tube tester.  Belton Micalex.  Very solid connection and has PIN numbers marked on the socket.


----------



## les24preludes

I've been rolling 6SN7s and some 6J5s for the last few days and these are my findings so far. Most obvious is that it's the construction of the tube that makes the difference much more than either the make or the type (GT, GTA, GTB etc). This isn't what you generally get in threads like this, and I don't know why to be honest. So...
1. Angled plates. The best sounding of all to my ears - neutral, detailed and all-round musical with good treble. Could possibly be a trifle bright in some systems but were OK for me. These stay in my system. Typical example Sylvania WGTA but plenty of others including taller bottles, GT, GTA, GTB. 
2. T plates. I found these smooth and full in sound but lacking sparkle in the treble. The best were good but I wasn't totally convinced. These are usually the early GT ones which fetch high prices but they didn't sound better than the angled plates for me. 
3. Round plates. These can sound good, for example the Brimar. Smooth and full sound close to the T plates. 
2. Ladder plates. These were the worst sounding of all the constructions - grainy treble and not something I could live with. Otherwise they were clean and detailed but the grain remained an issue. There are plenty of ladder variants including the venerated 5692, which I haven't heard and which differs in having 2 micas at the top and a vertical supporting rod. So I can't comment on that. 

On to 6J5 types. I've tried 2 types so far, but more on order. 
1. 7193/2C22. Ladder plates again and again the grainy treble. Otherwise clean and detailed. So a non starter for me. 
2. L63. This was a disappointment for round plates - a full sound but mediocre treble and very woolly bass. Maybe not good examples. 

On order: CV6, E1148, Raytheon 6J5WGT. The Raytheon are ladder plates so I'm cautious but they do have the vertical support rod. E1148 have horizontal plates and CV6 round plates. I suspect they won't knock the angled plates off the top spot but I'll wait and see. Also on order a pair of 7A4 and a 7N7. That completes the most obvious variants to try. I'm staying with mu=20, so not considering 6P5G and others with less gain, even though I've tried these in the past and liked them together with 76, 56, 37, 27.


----------



## Slade01

les24preludes said:


> I've been rolling 6SN7s and some 6J5s for the last few days and these are my findings so far. Most obvious is that it's the construction of the tube that makes the difference much more than either the make or the type (GT, GTA, GTB etc). This isn't what you generally get in threads like this, and I don't know why to be honest. So...
> 1. Angled plates. The best sounding of all to my ears - neutral, detailed and all-round musical with good treble. Could possibly be a trifle bright in some systems but were OK for me. These stay in my system. Typical example Sylvania WGTA but plenty of others including taller bottles, GT, GTA, GTB.
> 2. T plates. I found these smooth and full in sound but lacking sparkle in the treble. The best were good but I wasn't totally convinced. These are usually the early GT ones which fetch high prices but they didn't sound better than the angled plates for me.
> 3. Round plates. These can sound good, for example the Brimar. Smooth and full sound close to the T plates.
> ...



May I ask what your amp/dac/headphones are for reference on how you are evaluating the tubes?   Thanks!


----------



## les24preludes

Slade01 said:


> May I ask what your amp/dac/headphones are for reference on how you are evaluating the tubes?   Thanks!


Certainly. This is as a driver tube for my 2a3 SE amplifier with amorphous OPTs. 2-way speakers on stands around 89db, smallish room and I don't listen loud. My headphone amp is under revision for the moment so not functional. I design and make all my amplifiers, which are modular with interchangeable top plates, so I never need adapters. I have a pretty standard AK4490 DAC going straight into the amp. Source is a Mac Pro and iTunes and fully digital, no vinyl. 

I've been trying out the loctal 7N7 and 7AF7. The 7N7 has T plates and sound is pretty typical of T plates - good full, crisp, immediate, smooth sound lacking just the last ounce of sparkle in the treble. I don't have an angled plate version at present. The 7AF7 has been a pleasant surprise. A little softer and less punchy than the 7N7 T plate but the treble is very nice and again smooth. Certainly one of the better versions. Mu is 16 rather than 20 but you don't notice much difference.


----------



## mayurs

The 2 types of Tungsol BGRP. These Tungsols have become my favourite 6SN7 tubes and I am getting more of them.


----------



## Ranger Ron

mayurs said:


> The 2 types of Tungsol BGRP. These Tungsols have become my favourite 6SN7 tubes and I am getting more of them.


$$$$$$$$


----------



## jonathan c

😁  


      🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## les24preludes (May 8, 2022)

??? BGRP ???...... Is this some kind of getter and a ribbed plate or what? What's the plate construction here? I can't see from the photos.

As I've said before, I differentiate between the different kind of plate construction, not the make of tube. Especially since a lot of tubes were rebranded. For example my favourite angled plate 6SN7 is branded Motorola. Tall bottle, which seems to make a positive difference. I have Hewlett Packard, Silvertone, Silverline, CBS, Remington, Toshiba, Hit-Ray....... all kinds of rebrands.


----------



## Isaacc7

les24preludes said:


> ??? BGRP ???...... Is this some kind of getter and a ribbed plate or what? What's the plate construction here? I can't see from the photos.
> 
> As I've said before, I differentiate between the different kind of plate construction, not the make of tube. Especially since a lot of tubes were rebranded. For example my favourite angled plate 6SN7 is branded Motorola. Tall bottle, which seems to make a positive difference. I have Hewlett Packard, Silvertone, Silverline, CBS, Remington, Toshiba, Hit-Ray....... all kinds of rebrands.


Black Glass Round Plate. They were branded a variety of different companies but all were made by Tungsol. They really are something special. 

And yes, there are a zillion brands put on tubes it is usually easy to tell who actually made the tubes. You'll see the abbreviation of BGRP or even TSBGRP to describe these. Tungsol made other types of 6sn7 tubes later on but these are among the "holy grail" tier of 6sn7.


----------



## Isaacc7

mayurs said:


> The 2 types of Tungsol BGRP. These Tungsols have become my favourite 6SN7 tubes and I am getting more of them.


I am making an effort to make sure my tube equipment can use 12sn7 tubes primarily so that I can afford to use the TSBGRP tubes. I have 3 pairs now. If I was only using them in my preamp that would probably be enough but my upcoming amp will use a pair of 12sn7 as well so it would be nice to have some more. Last time I checked there were actually several pairs of the TSBGRP 6f8g for sale on ebay. Not cheap but they aren't always the easiest things too find at all. Think they are still selling for less than the 6sn7.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Isaacc7 said:


> I am making an effort to make sure my tube equipment can use 12sn7 tubes primarily so that I can afford to use the TSBGRP tubes. I have 3 pairs now. If I was only using them in my preamp that would probably be enough but my upcoming amp will use a pair of 12sn7 as well so it would be nice to have some more. Last time I checked there were actually several pairs of the TSBGRP 6f8g for sale on ebay. Not cheap but they aren't always the easiest things too find at all. Think they are still selling for less than the 6sn7.


Or become a complete lunatic and check eBay every one to two hours ready to pounce as soon as you find a pair listed by a seller that isn’t aware of the current value. I’ve scored two pairs both under $100 doing this.  I’ve since stopped because I started losing my mind.


----------



## paradoxper

MELZ MELZ


----------



## Pondoro

So I ordered a Lyr 3 (used, from a highly rated internet seller). It comes with a multibit card. I am excited to compare it to my Vali 2+ and my Saga +. I can feed it from the multibit card or from my non-multibit Modi 3. All using 6SN7 tubes. None of this will be scientific or blind. I just like to listen. Most comparison will be with a 6 watt rebuilt Magnavox amp, though I have a seventy watt solid state Yamaha amp as well.


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> MELZ MELZ


These tubes definitely Melz your heart 😀


----------



## paradoxper (May 11, 2022)

From the recent 300B thread, Wathen was brought up and small discussion took place around their merit. Apparently Decware is pushing to make these a standard for their product. I was assured Steve Deckert was to evaluate but it may take a time.

Most focus seems around the other tube types inclduing 6SN7, so before I plop down a order on the 300B to compare against Western Electric, does anyone by chance have experience with any of their tubes? They go under the branding CryoTone.


----------



## SlothRock

Unfortunately one of my Tung Sol black glass oval mica's seems to be dying . Switching to my RCA VT-231 grey glass for now as I love their synergy with 5998 powers. What other 6SN7's do folks recommend with 5998 powers? The black glass Tung Sols have been my favorite for sure but they're going for an insane price to get a good pair (https://www.ebay.com/itm/334145123884?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&fromMakeTrack=true).

Curious what else I should be looking into that's more reasonable?


----------



## Ranger Ron

SlothRock said:


> Unfortunately one of my Tung Sol black glass oval mica's seems to be dying . Switching to my RCA VT-231 grey glass for now as I love their synergy with 5998 powers. What other 6SN7's do folks recommend with 5998 powers? The black glass Tung Sols have been my favorite for sure but they're going for an insane price to get a good pair (https://www.ebay.com/itm/334145123884?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&fromMakeTrack=true).
> 
> Curious what else I should be looking into that's more reasonable?


Get a set of 6F8G to 6SN7 adapters.  National Union made rebrands can be had relatively cheap. I think they are on the same top tier as the BGRP.


----------



## musicman59

I personally like the sound of the 6f8g tubes better than the 6SN7. When I had my WA5-LE v1 I switched to the 6f8g by recommendation of a friend and never looked back plus as been said here you can get them cheaper.


----------



## fuhransahis

musicman59 said:


> I personally like the sound of the 6f8g tubes better than the 6SN7. When I had my WA5-LE v1 I switched to the 6f8g by recommendation of a friend and never looked back plus as been said here you can get them cheaper.



Do you mind sharing what about their sound makes you prefer them?


----------



## Slade01

fuhransahis said:


> Do you mind sharing what about their sound makes you prefer them?



i'll put in my unwanted 2 cents here - the 6f8g can be more holographic and have more full-bodied sound.  definitely more of these variants are relaxed...smoothed (rolled off highs), can be lush, definitely on the warmer side...very sweet sounding tubes, though YMMV.   if you are a fan of the round plates, you can get that with the 6f8g at a more reduced cost than the unicorn 6sn7 tung sol round plates.


----------



## fuhransahis

Slade01 said:


> i'll put in my unwanted 2 cents here - the 6f8g can be more holographic and have more full-bodied sound.  definitely more of these variants are relaxed...smoothed (rolled off highs), can be lush, definitely on the warmer side...very sweet sounding tubes, though YMMV.   if you are a fan of the round plates, you can get that with the 6f8g at a more reduced cost than the unicorn 6sn7 tung sol round plates.


I'll take your 2 cents! Appreciate the impressions. 

My interest is certainly piqued - any particular ones to look out for?


----------



## Slade01

fuhransahis said:


> I'll take your 2 cents! Appreciate the impressions.
> 
> My interest is certainly piqued - any particular ones to look out for?



yeah ones you can afford.  lol.   i'm coming back to the tube game, having recently reacquiring a tube amp, and honestly, I felt sticker shock looking at how much things have significantly gone up.

that being, even if a different variant, the brands still mostly retain their signature house sounds.  sylvanias and rca will still sound more warmer, with varying degrees of mids and bass emphasis.   national union more sweet/lush.   raytheons, more mid-forward, better upper clarity.  ken-rads, still a full bodied sound/nice bass control. 

i would take the approach from starting from the brand standpoint, or you look for deals if there is any rebranding, and pay attention to the internal construction of the tubes.   if memory serves me correctly, they will mainly be in the round plate or flat ladder plate categories.   once you at least sample how these types will be in your chain, you can go from there.  

don't know if anyone has mentioned 6C8G tubes as well.  it has less of a heater draw, but definitely more gain than the 6F8G.   in certain amps/chains, this could sound even better, though the absolutely reverse could also happen depending on the circuits/implementation.  you'd have to do a little more homework on that...within the context of your amp.

again, everything above is just my opinion.  YMMV.   for reference, when I ran 6f8g tubes at the time, my chain was:   Denafrips Ares 2 > (unmodded/stock) Darkvoice 336se > HD6xx.  please take that into consideration.


----------



## JTbbb (May 14, 2022)

Slade01 said:


> yeah ones you can afford.  lol.   i'm coming back to the tube game, having recently reacquiring a tube amp, and honestly, I felt sticker shock looking at how much things have significantly gone up.
> 
> that being, even if a different variant, the brands still mostly retain their signature house sounds.  sylvanias and rca will still sound more warmer, with varying degrees of mids and bass emphasis.   national union more sweet/lush.   raytheons, more mid-forward, better upper clarity.  ken-rads, still a full bodied sound/nice bass control.
> 
> ...


I like the sound signature of 6sn7 RCA Grey Glass & TSRPBG, in your opinion which 6F8G tubes would be equivalent?

Who started this off….it was Leftside wasn’t it? I’m supposed to be cutting down on my tube purchases 😀😀

Edit: Ah! it was UntilThen 😀


----------



## UntilThen

I have a pair of Tung Sol 6F8G rebranded Art. That is the equivalent of TS BGRP.

This is it when I was using it in GOTL.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh gosh I do miss that amp and the tubes I have for it.


----------



## Slade01

JTbbb said:


> I like the sound signature of 6sn7 RCA Grey Glass & TSRPBG, in your opinion which 6F8G tubes would be equivalent?
> 
> Who started this off….it was Leftside wasn’t it? I’m supposed to be cutting down on my tube purchases 😀😀
> 
> Edit: Ah! it was UntilThen 😀


Lol.  What @UntilThen said above.  The same goes for RCA.  There are RCA Smoked/Gray Glass 6F8G, equivalent sound signature, in my opinion.


----------



## UntilThen

JTbbb said:


> Who started this off….it was Leftside wasn’t it? I’m supposed to be cutting down on my tube purchases 😀😀
> 
> Edit: Ah! it was UntilThen 😀



Nothing to do with me. I'm the most conservative tube buyer. 

It's Leftside or Bcowen.


----------



## JTbbb

I know nothing about these tubes. So what are the thoughts on these? £110 the pair. No test figures but NIB.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Nothing to do with me. *I'm the most conservative tube buyer.*
> 
> It's Leftside or Bcowen.


ROFL!!!  And I'm a highly skilled golf cart driver.


----------



## UntilThen

JTbbb said:


> I know nothing about these tubes. So what are the thoughts on these? £110 the pair. No test figures but NIB.



Good 6sn7 or good 6F8G price have sky rocketed. I suggest you transition over to 6FD7 for the sake of sanity.

After 2 days of WA22 with the wicked 596 rectifier, this golden boy with 6FD7 drivers is just pure ecstasy and cheap too.


----------



## whirlwind

JTbbb said:


> I know nothing about these tubes. So what are the thoughts on these? £110 the pair. No test figures but NIB.



I am not sure what a good price on these are these days, but if you like the RCA 6SN7 gray glass then you will like the 6F8G....thing is not sure there is a huge difference in sound as far as tone goes.  Pretty much all RCA tubes that I have heard, are warm, lush with a rolled off top end so to speak.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> Pretty much all RCA tubes that I have heard, are warm, lush with a rolled off top end so to speak.



That's pretty much what the RCA 6sn7 smoke glass sound like. The RCA also aren't alike to the Tung Sol 6sn7gt bgrp, so I doubt the RCA 6F8G sound similar to the Tung Sol 6F8G bgrp.

When I was looking to buy the Tung Sol 6F8G bgrp, it was Stavros who pointed out the Art tubes to me. Now he disappeared. 

This is a pair of Tung Sol 6F8G bgrp but look at the price.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255459870186?


----------



## Ranger Ron

musicman59 said:


> I personally like the sound of the 6f8g tubes better than the 6SN7. When I had my WA5-LE v1 I switched to the 6f8g by recommendation of a friend and never looked back plus as been said here you can get them





whirlwind said:


> I am not sure what a good price on these are these days, but if you like the RCA 6SN7 gray glass then you will like the 6F8G....thing is not sure there is a huge difference in sound as far as tone goes.  Pretty much all RCA tubes that I have heard, are warm, lush with a rolled off top end so to speak.





whirlwind said:


> I am not sure what a good price on these are these days, but if you like the RCA 6SN7 gray glass then you will like the 6F8G....thing is not sure there is a huge difference in sound as far as tone goes.  Pretty much all RCA tubes that I have heard, are warm, lush with a rolled off top end so to speak.


I agree. To me a more balanced sound than the 6SN7 version. The only 6F8G that I was disappointed with, not that it sounds bad, is the KenRad staggered plates 6F8G. To me this tube sounds bright. But, you never know.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> That's pretty much what the RCA 6sn7 smoke glass sound like. The RCA also aren't alike to the Tung Sol 6sn7gt bgrp, so I doubt the RCA 6F8G sound similar to the Tung Sol 6F8G bgrp.
> 
> When I was looking to buy the Tung Sol 6F8G bgrp, it was Stavros who pointed out the Art tubes to me. Now he disappeared.
> 
> ...



No, the RCA will not sound like the Tung Sol. The two RCA will be very similar.
Tung Soul 6SN7 BGRP and Tung Sol 6F8G will be similar

A pair of 6J5 Tung Sol will be close to 6F8G Tung Sol


----------



## UntilThen

I think it's time to sell this since there's demand. I should stick this into the WA22.


----------



## whirlwind

UntilThen said:


> I think it's time to sell this since there's demand. I should stick this into the WA22.



Well, so far for this year...tubes have been a better investment than the stock market


----------



## jonathan c

whirlwind said:


> Well, so far for this year...tubes have been a better investment than the stock market


Stocks have gone down the tube….🤣🤣🤣


----------



## UntilThen

jonathan c said:


> Stocks have gone down the tube….🤣🤣🤣



I forgot what topic we are on now but taking stock of your tubes is important. You have to know your inventory.


----------



## UntilThen

Well I got up at 3am and posted in 4 different threads. It's a miracle I still remember which house I am in. Now to go back to my music. In the last 72 hours, I've gone from KT88 to 5998 to 300b - all in different amps of course. I ain't playing musical chairs. I'm playing musical tubes.


----------



## Slade01

UntilThen said:


> The RCA also aren't alike to the Tung Sol 6sn7gt bgrp, so I doubt the RCA 6F8G sound similar to the Tung Sol 6F8G bgrp.





whirlwind said:


> No, the RCA will not sound like the Tung Sol. The two RCA will be very similar.
> Tung Soul 6SN7 BGRP and Tung Sol 6F8G will be similar



Yup - sorry if I wasn't clear but absolutely right.  The house sound of the brands will carry over from their respective variant/types. (e.g.  tung sol 6sn7 will sound similar to its 6f8g counterpart, and likewise with RCAs.    The Tung Sols definitely DO NOT sound like RCAs.  



Ranger Ron said:


> The only 6F8G that I was disappointed with, not that it sounds bad, is the KenRad staggered plates 6F8G. To me this tube sounds bright. But, you never know.


I agree with this - the KenRad 6F8G wasn't too impressive, it did sound brighter.  However, I felt the the 6C8G Ken-Rads sound great.  Not sure if the higher gain helped its SQ - but the general brightness became more composed, crisp, energetic in a good way.  Bass was punchy and controlled, though not the traditionally bass heavier like the 6SN7 ver.  I found ken rad to be more of the exception to the rule, at least with the ones I tried.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Good 6sn7 or good 6F8G price have sky rocketed. I suggest you transition over to 6FD7 for the sake of sanity.
> 
> After 2 days of WA22 with the wicked 596 rectifier, this golden boy with 6FD7 drivers is just pure ecstasy and cheap too.


The 6fd7 has dissimilar triodes. Can this amp use both 6sn7 and 6fd7?vHow does that work?


----------



## UntilThen

Slade01 said:


> The Tung Sols definitely DO NOT sound like RCAs.



Absolutely. In the 60s when tubes are the rage and 'hot', Tung Sols were like Ferraris and RCA were like.... well Toyotas.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> I think it's time to sell this since there's demand. I should stick this into the WA22.


You can get good money for those, maybe enough to buy some more GEC tubes!


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> The 6fd7 has dissimilar triodes. Can this amp use both 6sn7 and 6fd7?vHow does that work?



Sorry if I misled you but that amp doesn't use 6sn7 but 6em7 and it's dissimilar triodes variants.


----------



## Isaacc7

SlothRock said:


> Unfortunately one of my Tung Sol black glass oval mica's seems to be dying . Switching to my RCA VT-231 grey glass for now as I love their synergy with 5998 powers. What other 6SN7's do folks recommend with 5998 powers? The black glass Tung Sols have been my favorite for sure but they're going for an insane price to get a good pair (https://www.ebay.com/itm/334145123884?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&fromMakeTrack=true).
> 
> Curious what else I should be looking into that's more reasonable?


If you want to save money you might want to hop on to the 6j5 thread. If your amp can accommodate the adapter, using a pair of 6j5 tubes is cheaper than the crazy prices of the 6sn7. Some folks say that splitting up the triodes is an inherent upgrade. I will say that I've been impressed with the round plate Sylvania 12j5gt tubes I've tried.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Sorry if I misled you but that amp doesn't use 6sn7 but 6em7 and it's dissimilar triodes variants.


Ah, sorry, in the context of cheaper 6sn7 tubes I was confused about the mention of that tube. No worries!


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> You can get good money for those, maybe enough to buy some more GEC tubes!



Yeah? I had it in brand new condition. It hadn't been used before until I use it - lightly. Then I bought those adapters from Poland. It's still like new tubes.

Anyone want to equal trade their WE300b tubes for these? I will cover postage plus a carton of mars bars.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Absolutely. In the 60s when tubes are the rage and 'hot', Tung Sols were like Ferraris and RCA were like.... well Toyotas.


RCA 2A3's are the milk.  Possibly better than anything else in that tube type.  YMMV, IMO, and no need to FTFY.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I forgot what topic we are on now but taking stock of your tubes is important. You have to know your inventory.


True.  And it's best not to take stock of your _stocks_ now, unless you're looking for a reason to be depressed.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yeah? I had it in brand new condition. It hadn't been used before until I use it - lightly. Then I bought those adapters from Poland. It's still like new tubes.
> 
> *Anyone want to equal trade their WE300b tubes for these? *I will cover postage plus a carton of mars bars.


Let me think for a fraction of a femtosecond about that.   Nope.  Sorry it took so long for me to decide.


----------



## UntilThen

SlothRock said:


> Unfortunately one of my Tung Sol black glass oval mica's seems to be dying . Switching to my RCA VT-231 grey glass for now as I love their synergy with 5998 powers. What other 6SN7's do folks recommend with 5998 powers? The black glass Tung Sols have been my favorite for sure but they're going for an insane price to get a good pair (https://www.ebay.com/itm/334145123884?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&fromMakeTrack=true).
> 
> Curious what else I should be looking into that's more reasonable?



Paint the Psvane UK 6sn7 black and it will do.   Incidentally I was using the 5998 in the WA22 yesterday. With that wicked looking 596 rectifier that landed on Friday. I have a pair of Ken Rad 6sn7gt black glass that sounded great in combination with the 5998.

Both pictures included.

Psvane 6sn7 with 5998



Ken Rad 6sn7 with Bendix 6080wb graphite.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> RCA 2A3's are the milk.  Possibly better than anything else in that tube type.  YMMV, IMO, and no need to FTFY.



I haven't touch 2A3 yet so don't drag me into that tuff. But I will put it in the bucket list. To get a 2A3 amp. WA33 or Smurf? You got any spare cash Bcowen?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I haven't touch 2A3 yet so don't drag me into that tuff. But I will put it in the bucket list. To get a 2A3 amp. WA33 or Smurf? You got any spare cash Bcowen?


The RCA's can still be had for not-insane money.  But that will only last until someone starts raving about them.  

I think I have a couple pairs still in the stash somewhere, but haven't had an amp that uses them in a very long time.  Hard to get enough power out of them for use in a mainstream speaker amp, but they could be pretty awesome in an HP-only amp.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Well I got up at 3am and posted in 4 different threads. It's a miracle I still remember which house I am in. Now to go back to my music. In the last 72 hours, I've gone from KT88 to 5998 to 300b - all in different amps of course. I ain't playing musical chairs. I'm playing musical tubes.


======> musical adapters? ======> ??


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> I haven't touch 2A3 yet so don't drag me into that tuff. But I will put it in the bucket list. To get a 2A3 amp. WA33 or Smurf? You got any spare cash Bcowen?


…did you pay bcowen that paltry AUD wage (31% worse in USD) this week? 😒


----------



## musicman59

I concur with @Slade01 assessment on the sound of the 6f8g tubes.
My favorite ones are the TungSol Round Plates/Black Glass. There are other brands like Emerson that are TS rebranded. I also like the National Union with same construction.

That are some Sylvania but those are not as lush as the TS or NU.


----------



## jbua5150

I have been enjoying the TungSol 6C8G. 
Very nice sound. They seem to have a wider presentation that my other favorites the Zalytron 6SN7.


----------



## UntilThen

jbua5150 said:


> I have been enjoying the TungSol 6C8G.
> Very nice sound. They seem to have a wider presentation that my other favorites the Zalytron 6SN7.



Another 596 appeared.  I'm going to roll in the Art Garfunkel 6F8G today. Too many wires there !


----------



## ColSaulTigh

UntilThen said:


> Another 596 appeared.  I'm going to roll in the Art Garfunkel 6F8G today. Too many wires there !


I'll see your 596 and raise you ANOTHER 596!  Sylvania 7N7's with Woo adapters, too!  Now if my KR-Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions would just get here...


----------



## bcowen

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'll see your 596 and raise you ANOTHER 596!  Sylvania 7N7's with Woo adapters, too!  Now if my KR-Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions would just get here...


Oooohhh...be interested to hear what you think of those KR's.  Didn't know they had a special edition out.

@UntilThen should probably get these for his amp:


----------



## Isaacc7

Adapters galore! Raytheon 6f8g with GE 6bg6ga.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

bcowen said:


> Oooohhh...be interested to hear what you think of those KR's.  Didn't know they had a special edition out.
> 
> @UntilThen should probably get these for his amp:



Yep, right *HERE*
*

*


----------



## bcowen

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yep, right *HERE*
> **


Too bad they don't have the 300BXLS in the RK limited edition.  Actually, maybe a good thing...for my wallet.


----------



## bcowen

Dang it.  Now I want this.  Thanks a lot for making me look, @ColSaulTigh  

R2R *and* 300B's?  This is a conspiracy against audiophile bank accounts.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

bcowen said:


> Too bad they don't have the 300BXLS in the RK limited edition.  Actually, maybe a good thing...for my wallet.


No, but they do have the


bcowen said:


> Dang it.  Now I want this.  Thanks a lot for making me look, @ColSaulTigh
> 
> R2R *and* 300B's?  This is a conspiracy against audiophile bank accounts.


Yeah, that's probably next on the list...


----------



## Isaacc7

jbua5150 said:


> I have been enjoying the TungSol 6C8G.
> Very nice sound. They seem to have a wider presentation that my other favorites the Zalytron 6SN7.


I too enjoy the Tungsol 6c8g. It works well with tubes that need some more air. The bass is usually quite good too.


----------



## UntilThen

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'll see your 596 and raise you ANOTHER 596! Sylvania 7N7's with Woo adapters, too! Now if my KR-Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions would just get here...



Haha very noice. Double 596 is a bit of a crowded house there. I see you have the Woo adapter for the drivers too. Very impressed with Woo teflon adapters.

Let us know how the KR-Audio 300B Riccardco Kron sound like when you have it. I heard the WA5LE with Takatsuki 300b and that was very tight and nice.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> Adapters galore! Raytheon 6f8g with GE 6bg6ga.



Very nice Dennis Had amp. Bcowen's friend.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

UntilThen said:


> Haha very noice. Double 596 is a bit of a crowded house there. I see you have the Woo adapter for the drivers too. Very impressed with Woo teflon adapters.
> 
> Let us know how the KR-Audio 300B Riccardco Kron sound like when you have it. I heard the WA5LE with Takatsuki 300b and that was very tight and nice.


I'm picking up a matched pair of Takatsuki 300B's and another 274B next week, so I'll be able to report on that by this time next week (hopefully).


----------



## Ranger Ron

Isaacc7 said:


> I too enjoy the Tungsol 6c8g. It works well with tubes that need some more air. The bass is usually quite good too.


That tube is spatially spectacular.  
The only tube I’ve heard that sounds as open is the KenRad 6F8G with round plates that look more like tung sol not NU.  Amazing tubes. I’m sure there are others.


----------



## UntilThen

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yep, right *HERE*



Hmm only AUD$300 more than my GEC KT88. But I did say no more tubes !


----------



## ColSaulTigh

UntilThen said:


> Hmm only AUD$300 more than my GEC KT88. But I did say no more tubes !


FIFY


----------



## UntilThen

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'm picking up a matched pair of Takatsuki 300B's and another 274B next week, so I'll be able to report on that by this time next week (hopefully).



Bcowen and I will be inviting ourselves over.

When I had the WA5LE for 2 weeks. That was in 10th Feb 2018.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ranger Ron said:


> That tube is spatially spectacular.
> The only tube I’ve heard that sounds as open is the KenRad 6F8G with round plates that look more like tung sol not NU.  Amazing tubes. I’m sure there are others.


I have a pair of those too. I might try them out with a pair of Sylvania 5933 tubes. They seem too soft to me. Maybe they need that extra oomph the Ken Rads have.


----------



## UntilThen

Time to return to 6sn7 and it's variants or we will have to rename the thread. It's all Bcowen's fault.

Tung Sol 6F8G rebranded Art in there now. What I'm hearing with He1000se and that tube combination in WA22 is 'Wet wet wet'. It's syrupy and liquid in a very good way of course. Body tone is lovely ! Remember Wet wet wet? Songs like 'Love is all around, With a little help from my friends, Sweet Little Mystery and Sweet Surrender.


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> Very nice Dennis Had amp. Bcowen's _friend._


…_note the singular…😢_


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …_note the singular…😢_


Awww, c'mon man.  I have _two _friends.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Time to return to 6sn7 and it's variants or we will have to rename the thread.* It's all Bcowen's fault.*


Oh, fine.  Here...how about a Japanese 6SN7?


----------



## UntilThen

I had a Hitachi before but not with that original box you have there.


----------



## UntilThen

But do you have these Sylvania 6sn7gtb with test results - 1958 !!!  I bought these just before getting Elise, which means 100 years ago.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Oh, fine.  Here...how about a Japanese 6SN7?


A very nice tube!….(interesting that the expansive Foton stash is _blurred_ in the background…😏.) Oh, is 2300/2300 Gm or wholesale/retail ?…🤣


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> But do you have these Sylvania 6sn7gtb with test results - 1958 !!!  I bought these just before getting Elise, which means 100 years ago.


How about some wartime 6SN7W's instead?


----------



## UntilThen

And do you have these priceless Fotons with Ken Rad and RCA Smoke glass. My 6SN7s are kind of pathetic now. I think the 6SL7s are catching up.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> How about some wartime 6SN7W's instead?



Send that to me now !


----------



## bcowen (May 15, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> A very nice tube!….(interesting that the expansive *Foton stash is blurred in the background…*😏.) Oh, is 2300/2300 Gm or wholesale/retail ?…🤣



It was a tube photo shoot.  With an iPhone.  Does that explain it adequately?  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> And do you have these priceless Fotons with Ken Rad and RCA Smoke glass. My 6SN7s are kind of pathetic now. I think the 6SL7s are catching up.


Yup.





Yup.





And yup.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> It was a tube photo shoot.  With an iPhone.  Des that explain it?  LOL!!



Well an iPhone in capable hands can produce award winning shots. Like my shots. I must say that the picture you took of the Hitachi pass the pub test. ie. pretty good.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Send that to me now !


How about the 9-pin 6SN7?  Got any of those?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Yup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do have some 6SN7s. Someday when the Fotons appreciates in price, you will be a rich man. Can you send a pair of 52s to me?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is Irving Berlin stuff !! :  “Any Tube You Can Do I Can Do Better”…🎼🎶🎵…😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> You do have some 6SN7s. Someday when the Fotons appreciates in price, you will be a rich man. Can you send a pair of 52s to me?


…as I said, tubes are an essential investment portfolio component for secure retirement…


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> How about the 9-pin 6SN7? Got any of those?



Do I have 9 pins? 

Do you have these RCA 6BQ7A ? All 5 of them in original boxes and brand spanking new. These are heritage listing now.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Do I have 9 pins?
> 
> Do you have these RCA 6BQ7A ? All 5 of them in original boxes and brand spanking new. These are heritage listing now.


Nah, I only have these cheap junk Brimars.





But do you have any of these Tung Sol 6J5's?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Nah, I only have these cheap junk Brimars.



You have serious tube problems but do you have these Rothschild collection?


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You have serious tube problems but do you have these Rothschild collection?


Not yet.  You should send those to me so I can evaluate their sonic goodness.


----------



## UntilThen

Rothschild collection No 2.   I finally found the other RCA 6SN7gt Smoke glass. Now I have the pair.


----------



## UntilThen

RCA 6sn7gt smoke glass, TS 5998 and 596 rectifier in wa22 sounds great. There's a combination of warmth and brightness here and it balanced out very well.

The correct designation is RCA JAN CRC 6SN7 GT VT-231 smoke glass.


----------



## JTbbb (May 15, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Send that to me now !


Wow, I can’t believe you don’t have a pair of these 😀😀

Edit: Sylvania 6sn7W’s


----------



## UntilThen

JTbbb said:


> Wow, I can’t believe you don’t have a pair of these 😀😀
> 
> Edit: Sylvania 6sn7W’s


I did before but I sold them off with GOTL and Studio Six.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Rothschild collection No 2.   I finally found the other RCA 6SN7gt Smoke glass. Now I have the pair.


That would have been pretty impressive without the GE boxes flanking everything.  

But do you have at least one brand of all the Sylvania-made Frankentubes?


----------



## MacMan31

Is it worth selling my Lyr 3 and Valhalla 2 in favour of a more "appropriate" tube amp? I have compared them with the Jotenheim 2 and even with swapping the few tubes I have there is little noticeable difference compared with the Jot 2. I just don't think I'm getting that "tube sound" or warmth that is usually associated with tubes. I just don't want to give up the tubes I have as tubes seem pretty pricy these days.


----------



## TLO

UntilThen said:


> Rothschild collection No 2.   I finally found the other RCA 6SN7gt Smoke glass. Now I have the pair.


Hey, I see that you have a piece of that rare Raytheon 6SN7 BG. I have a piece too, still looking for another to make a pair...


----------



## ColSaulTigh

MacMan31 said:


> Is it worth selling my Lyr 3 and Valhalla 2 in favour of a more "appropriate" tube amp? I have compared them with the Jotenheim 2 and even with swapping the few tubes I have there is little noticeable difference compared with the Jot 2. I just don't think I'm getting that "tube sound" or warmth that is usually associated with tubes. I just don't want to give up the tubes I have as tubes seem pretty pricy these days.


IMO, there's nothing like the sound out of a SET tube amp.  Even the OTL amps sound dramatically better than solid state (if you're looking for the tube sound).


----------



## ColSaulTigh

TLO said:


> Hey, I see that you have a piece of that rare Raytheon 6SN7 BG. I have a piece too, still looking for another to make a pair...


This sounds like a game of "Monopoly" when one player has Boardwalk and another has Park Place.  Let the bargaining begin!


----------



## MacMan31

ColSaulTigh said:


> IMO, there's nothing like the sound out of a SET tube amp.  Even the OTL amps sound dramatically better than solid state (if you're looking for the tube sound).



What is a SET tube amp?


----------



## whirlwind

I like the 1940's RCA 6/12/25 SN7 tubes


----------



## Isaacc7

MacMan31 said:


> What is a SET tube amp?


SET= Single Ended Triode. If you don’t need much power, and if you’re using headphones you don’t, SET is hard to beat for audio magic. 

For me, tube amps aren’t necessarily about “warmth” but naturalness. Whenever I listen to solid state I feel like I’m listening to a system. With a good tube system I hear music.


----------



## toddc2

Sunday morning change of pace: rolled out the Melz 1578’s with these great sounding 5962’s.


----------



## Renexx

toddc2 said:


> Sunday morning change of pace: rolled out the Melz 1578’s with these great sounding 5962’s.


Looks like an extra warm listening session tonight 🔥🎧


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> That would have been pretty impressive without the GE boxes flanking everything.
> 
> But do you have at least one brand of all the Sylvania-made Frankentubes?


Showing off now 😀😀😀


----------



## toddc2

Warm indeed. These red base 5962’s (branded GE) have been gathering dust for the last 10 years or so. Very nice tubes and I’m happy to have them back in rotation.


----------



## Renexx (May 15, 2022)

toddc2 said:


> Warm indeed. These red base 5962’s (branded GE) have been gathering dust for the last 10 years or so. Very nice tubes and I’m happy to have them back in rotation.


Yes they gather dust in my collection also. I'm not a big fan of these tubes actually. Technically they are good but somehow I prefer the warmth of a Mullard Ecc32 or Brimar 6sn7gt much more.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

MacMan31 said:


> What is a SET tube amp?


Single Ended Triode.


----------



## MacMan31

ColSaulTigh said:


> Single Ended Triode.



That looks like a sweet setup. Quite out of my price range. Is there any sub $1,000 SET amps? 



Isaacc7 said:


> SET= Single Ended Triode. If you don’t need much power, and if you’re using headphones you don’t, SET is hard to beat for audio magic.
> 
> For me, tube amps aren’t necessarily about “warmth” but naturalness. Whenever I listen to solid state I feel like I’m listening to a system. With a good tube system I hear music.



Thanks for the clarification. Well the Lyr 3 and Valhalla 2 are tube amps. Are they not natural sounding? The Schiit amps I have used so far do sound very good.


----------



## Pondoro

MacMan31 said:


> That looks like a sweet setup. Quite out of my price range. Is there any sub $1,000 SET amps?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the clarification. Well the Lyr 3 and Valhalla 2 are tube amps. Are they not natural sounding? The Schiit amps I have used so far do sound very good.


I have a Schiit Vali 2+ and a Saga +. I have fed Klipsch powered speakers (solid state, almost certainly class D) and vintage Magnavox tube amps (rebuilt) with both of them, they sound great. I have a Lyr 3 on the way, I will know what it sounds like soon.


----------



## jbua5150

UntilThen said:


> RCA 6sn7gt smoke glass, TS 5998 and 596 rectifier in wa22 sounds great. There's a combination of warmth and brightness here and it balanced out very well.
> 
> The correct designation is RCA JAN CRC 6SN7 GT VT-231 smoke glass.


@UntilThen 
Have you compared the non military RCA smoke glass vs the JAN version?  Do you find a significant sound difference?


----------



## Isaacc7

Today’s combo Sylvania 6f8g with Mullard 6aq5.


----------



## toddc2

Renexx said:


> Yes they gather dust in my collection also. I'm not a big fan of these tubes actually. Technically they are good but somehow I prefer the warmth of a Mullard Ecc32 or Brimar 6sn7gt much more.


Love the vocals on these 5962’s but I have to agree they are not going to have a permanent place in this system. While I have it setup for warmth I dropped the needle on The Nat King Cole Story (one of my warmest sounding records). Nat sounds fantastic but the music is a bit bloated. Fun to listen to, like a warm sonic blanket.


----------



## jbua5150 (May 15, 2022)

New to me RCA smoke glass 6SN7.
I had previously bought RCA VT-231 smoke glass, but they were quite noisy in my amp, and I returned them. 
I hope these are silent.


----------



## shafat777

jbua5150 said:


> New to me RCA smoke glass 6SN7.
> I had previously bought RCA VT-231 smoke glass, but they were quite noisy in my amp, and I returned them.
> I hope these are silent.


Let me know how these sound. I also had issues with RCA VT231 grey glass in my Elise OTL. Sounded a little bloomy and veiled. But i heard 6sn7gt smoked glasses are special. Enjoy those and post impression asap LOL.


----------



## UntilThen

TLO said:


> Hey, I see that you have a piece of that rare Raytheon 6SN7 BG. I have a piece too, still looking for another to make a pair...



I'm open to an equal trade of that with WE300b    Don't think about that as long as Bcowen.


----------



## UntilThen

Isaacc7 said:


> SET= Single Ended Triode. If you don’t need much power, and if you’re using headphones you don’t, SET is hard to beat for audio magic.
> 
> For me, tube amps aren’t necessarily about “warmth” but naturalness. Whenever I listen to solid state I feel like I’m listening to a system. With a good tube system I hear music.



What he said !


----------



## UntilThen

jbua5150 said:


> @UntilThen
> Have you compared the non military RCA smoke glass vs the JAN version?  Do you find a significant sound difference?



No I've not unfortunately. I'm sure someone here would have. About 5 years ago, there's someone here who didn't like the RCA smoke glass and wanted to sell a pair to me for $50. I said I already have a military pair.   The price now is getting crazy.


----------



## UntilThen

shafat777 said:


> Let me know how these sound. I also had issues with RCA VT231 grey glass in my Elise OTL. Sounded a little bloomy and veiled. But i heard 6sn7gt smoked glasses are special. Enjoy those and post impression asap LOL.



My RCA VT231 is very quiet in the WA22. I have just been fortunate. Almost all my tubes are quiet and well behave. The odd ones that aren't, I throw them out or like the pair of Sylvania 6sn7w, I gave to @mordy. He was going to give it the shock treatment. Not sure if he succeeded.


----------



## jbua5150 (May 15, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> My RCA VT231 is very quiet in the WA22. I have just been fortunate. Almost all my tubes are quiet and well behave. The odd ones that aren't, I throw them out or like the pair of Sylvania 6sn7w, I gave to @mordy. He was going to give it the shock treatment. Not sure if he succeeded.


I have a pair of Tung-Sol Mouse ears that one hums on every power up.
A sharp rap with a spudger on the base of the tube eliminates the noise until next power up.

Edit:I’ve found the WA22 to be very sensitive to noisy tubes.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jbua5150 said:


> I have a pair of Tung-Sol Mouse ears that one hums on every power up.
> A sharp rap with a spudger on the base of the tube eliminates the noise until next power up.
> 
> Edit:I’ve found the WA22 to be very sensitive to noisy tubes.


I think that's Woo's in general.  Both my my WA6-SE's didn't like Sylvania 13EM7's - they "squeaked" like someone was rubbing a balloon.  My WA5-LE and the Sophia Princess 300B's sounded like I was listening to wind chimes for the first half hour until they warmed up.  Even then, they were EXTREMELY microphonic.


----------



## UntilThen

ColSaulTigh said:


> I think that's Woo's in general.  Both my my WA6-SE's didn't like Sylvania 13EM7's - they "squeaked" like someone was rubbing a balloon.  My WA5-LE and the Sophia Princess 300B's sounded like I was listening to wind chimes for the first half hour until they warmed up.  Even then, they were EXTREMELY microphonic.



Must be the good air downunder because my used Wa22 is so well behaved with any of my tubes. Most or all my amps were bought or made new but I bought this WA22 used several years ago. A lot of amps have come and gone but I don't why I have kept the WA22.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

UntilThen said:


> Must be the good air downunder because my used Wa22 is so well behaved with any of my tubes. Most or all my amps were bought or made new but I bought this WA22 used several years ago. A lot of amps have come and gone but I don't why I have kept the WA22.


I don't think it's the amps, I think it's the tubes and how they interact with the amps.  All three of my Woo's are DEAD SILENT with most tubes.  For example, the WA6-SEs LOVE the GE's, International Servicemaster, and Westinghouse 13EM7's.  The WA5 has no issues with the stock PSVane 300B's.  It's only certain combinations that seem to affect it.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Showing off now 😀😀😀


Yeah, sorry.  Couldn't let @UntilThen have an easy win. That would be bad.


----------



## bcowen

toddc2 said:


> Love the vocals on these 5962’s but I have to agree they are not going to have a permanent place in this system. While I have it setup for warmth I dropped the needle on The Nat King Cole Story (one of my warmest sounding records). Nat sounds fantastic but the music is a bit bloated. Fun to listen to, like a warm sonic blanket.


That's a gorgeous rack!  Love the wood of the shelves.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Yeah, sorry.  Couldn't let @UntilThen have an easy win. That would be bad.


----------



## UntilThen

toddc2 said:


> Love the vocals on these 5962’s but I have to agree they are not going to have a permanent place in this system. While I have it setup for warmth I dropped the needle on The Nat King Cole Story (one of my warmest sounding records). Nat sounds fantastic but the music is a bit bloated. Fun to listen to, like a warm sonic blanket.



How did I miss this. It's the turntable that caught my eye.


----------



## toddc2

bcowen said:


> That's a gorgeous rack!  Love the wood of the shelves.


Thanks custom rack with “wormy maple” that was wife approved for the condo


----------



## toddc2

UntilThen said:


> How did I miss this. It's the turntable that caught my eye.


The Classic 3 is gorgeous, huge bonus that it sounds better than it looks


----------



## mordy (May 15, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> My RCA VT231 is very quiet in the WA22. I have just been fortunate. Almost all my tubes are quiet and well behave. The odd ones that aren't, I throw them out or like the pair of Sylvania 6sn7w, I gave to @mordy. He was going to give it the shock treatment. Not sure if he succeeded.



Hi UT,
Is it possible that you sent me three tubes? Looked in my box and found three Sylvania 6SN7W tubes black base from 1945. On one of them (without a box) I had written UT in my notes. Anyhow took them out for a spin.
The unboxed one is still misbehaving - loud hum.
The other two were sent for heat treatments. As I recall, they made loud pops (that can scare the life out of a headphone driver). Some of the old tubes with these symptoms need the solder to be reflowed inside the pins. By applying a soldering iron to each pin for 30 seconds I have had luck with some tubes to make them usable.
This pair is playing nicely - just plugged them in:




Is that your handwriting on the box?
PS: Actually they sound very good with the TS 5998 - haven't listened to them in a while.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> Is it possible that you sent me three tubes? Looked in my box and found three Sylvania 6SN7W tubes black base from 1945. On one of them (without a box) I had written UT in my notes. Anyhow took them out for a spin.
> The unboxed one is still misbehaving - loud hum.
> The other two were sent for heat treatments. As I recall, they made loud pops (that can scare the life out of a headphone driver). Some of the old tubes with these symptoms need the solder to be reflowed inside the pins. By applying a soldering iron to each pin for 30 seconds I have had luck with some tubes to make them usable.
> ...



Hello Mordy, long time no speak ! I send you only a pair and yes that is my famous handwriting. I'm glad it work for you after the shock treatment. Life is not always about oneself. Need to share the love.


----------



## UntilThen

TLO said:


> Hey, I see that you have a piece of that rare Raytheon 6SN7 BG. I have a piece too, still looking for another to make a pair...



Mr TLO, specially for you as you're from Spore, I roll in the Raytheon 6sn7gt black glass. By the way, @gibosi thinks it's a National Union 6sn7gt black glass. 

In this setup, the Raytheon driving the Telefunken EL12 spez with 'Mullard' 5U4G is as good as it's rare.   After 3 days of WA22, it's a change of breeze going back to Odyssey.


----------



## TLO

UntilThen said:


> Mr TLO, specially for you as you're from Spore, I roll in the Raytheon 6sn7gt black glass. By the way, @gibosi thinks it's a National Union 6sn7gt black glass.
> 
> In this setup, the Raytheon driving the Telefunken EL12 spez with 'Mullard' 5U4G is as good as it's rare.   After 3 days of WA22, it's a change of breeze going back to Odyssey.


Yes, it sounds very good. Smooth and very musical. I believe it is a rebranded NU too as I have 3 pairs of NU with different periods and prints. They all have different top n bottom mica shapes between each period. In fact, I also have another rare Silvertone branded NU in original box.


----------



## UntilThen

TLO said:


> Yes, it sounds very good. Smooth and very musical. I believe it is a rebranded NU too as I have 3 pairs of NU with different periods and prints. They all have different top n bottom mica shapes between each period. In fact, I also have another rare Silvertone branded NU in original box.



You have enough black glass then ! I have another black glass can't remember the brand and don't know where I put it. I also have a new pair of Tung Sol 12SL7gt black glass round plates which I can't use now. Used them in GOTL before.


----------



## TLO

Here, some pics for fun...havent seen another one at Ebay for 2 years now.


----------



## UntilThen

Brimar 6sn7gt black glass. AUD$950 for one tube !   Tubes are starting to be an investment.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/313869863087?hash=item49141a08af:g:R44AAOSwtJ5iBHxF


----------



## MacMan31

toddc2 said:


> Love the vocals on these 5962’s but I have to agree they are not going to have a permanent place in this system. While I have it setup for warmth I dropped the needle on The Nat King Cole Story (one of my warmest sounding records). Nat sounds fantastic but the music is a bit bloated. Fun to listen to, like a warm sonic blanket.



That's a nice gear stand. Where did you get it?


----------



## MacMan31

UntilThen said:


> Brimar 6sn7gt black glass. AUD$950 for one tube !   Tubes are starting to be an investment.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/313869863087?hash=item49141a08af:g:R44AAOSwtJ5iBHxF



This is why I'm thinking of getting out of tubes. To continue buying more to try is pretty expensive these days.


----------



## mordy

MacMan31 said:


> This is why I'm thinking of getting out of tubes. To continue buying more to try is pretty expensive these days.


There are always alternatives- you could get a Brimar 13D1 which is the 25V version of the 6SN7. If you can find them they are not expensive.


----------



## JTbbb

MacMan31 said:


> This is why I'm thinking of getting out of tubes. To continue buying more to try is pretty expensive these days.


Yes, some of the prices being asked are silly! But if you keep your eye on the market, you will see that these don’t go anywhere. And, although the underlying trend is going up, you will see these 6sn7’s trading at much more realistic prices.


----------



## toddc2

MacMan31 said:


> That's a nice gear stand. Where did you get it?


Here is the ad I responded to to have this rack custom made. I am not sure if he is still doing these racks but it's worth a try.

Custom Wormy Maple Racks

I have another maple rack made by Massif that does similar work at a higher volume (and price).


----------



## Ranger Ron

MacMan31 said:


> This is why I'm thinking of getting out of tubes. To continue buying more to try is pretty expensive these days.


I recently purchased 3 of these at different times, under $150 for the trio, and I think they outperform Brimar 6SN7. So, it’s still possible to get and not destroy a wallet.


----------



## MacMan31

toddc2 said:


> Here is the ad I responded to to have this rack custom made. I am not sure if he is still doing these racks but it's worth a try.
> 
> Custom Wormy Maple Racks
> 
> I have another maple rack made by Massif that does similar work at a higher volume (and price).



those looks really nice but much too expensive for me. This is one I was looking at. It's not on Amazon anymore but maybe it will come back soon. https://www.fitueyes.com/products/av-shelf-shelf-f07  It's nice to have hand made stuff but obviously it comes at a higher cost. Especially nowadays. 



Ranger Ron said:


> I recently purchased 3 of these at different times, under $150 for the trio, and I think they outperform Brimar 6SN7. So, it’s still possible to get and not destroy a wallet.



Those are some nice tubes. What are those wire things for?


----------



## Ranger Ron

MacMan31 said:


> those looks really nice but much too expensive for me. This is one I was looking at. It's not on Amazon anymore but maybe it will come back soon. https://www.fitueyes.com/products/av-shelf-shelf-f07  It's nice to have hand made stuff but obviously it comes at a higher cost. Especially nowadays.
> 
> 
> 
> Those are some nice tubes. What are those wire things for?


They are adapters so you can use 6F8G tubes in a 6SN7 socket.


----------



## mordy

Ranger Ron said:


> They are adapters so you can use 6F8G tubes in a 6SN7 socket.


You may want to try 6C8G tubes as well - priced less than the 6F8G. When I was rolling the 6F8G tubes I liked the National Union the best. A lot of these tubes are rebranded so it pays to learn how to identify them. If anybody is interested how to identify a rebranded NU, PM me.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> Mr TLO, specially for you as you're from Spore, I roll in the Raytheon 6sn7gt black glass. By the way, @gibosi thinks it's a National Union 6sn7gt black glass.
> 
> In this setup, the Raytheon driving the Telefunken EL12 spez with 'Mullard' 5U4G is as good as it's rare.   After 3 days of WA22, it's a change of breeze going back to Odyssey.


I'm a big fan of Raytheon branded 6f8g tubes. Not sure who made them though.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Does anyone need any genuine Melz 1578's?  I have a contact in Ukraine who has 2 pair available.


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## toddc2 (May 16, 2022)

toddc2 said:


> Sunday morning change of pace: rolled out the Melz 1578’s with these great sounding 5962’s.


Well that roll didn’t last long! Swapped the RCA 5962’s out for a beautiful pair of 1944 Sylvania VT-231’s. These drivers with the GEC 6080 power tubes are the best combo I’ve tried to date, LOVE this sound.

Edit: fixed typo in power tube type


----------



## mordy

toddc2 said:


> Well that roll didn’t last long! Swapped the RCA 5962’s out for a beautiful pair of 1944 Sylvania VT-231’s. These drivers with the GEC 8020 power tubes are the best combo I’ve tried to date, LOVE this sound.


The GEC 6080 power tubes are my favorite in the Elise/Euforia.


----------



## rawheadjim

ColSaulTigh said:


> Does anyone need any genuine Melz 1578's?  I have a contact in Ukraine who has 2 pair available.


What kind of $$ are we talking here for a pair?  I don't know if I'm worthy but curious for sure....


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## ColSaulTigh (May 16, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> What kind of $$ are we talking here for a pair?  I don't know if I'm worthy but curious for sure....


I can ask him if you're interested.  These are proper 1578's with the mouse ears and rectangle bottom plate.  Should be around $400/NOS pair.


----------



## mordy

ColSaulTigh said:


> I can ask him if you're interested.  These are proper 1578's with the mouse ears and rectangle bottom plate.  Should be around $400/NOS pair.


Like this?





*1 legendary 1578 MELZ tube on sale
Matched on SECO 107 tubes tester
Date code 1984
This is divine audiophile double triode
Taken from the military storehouse from original factory box in innocent condition. 

I like the description but not sure if these are the tubes you reference*


----------



## ColSaulTigh

mordy said:


> Like this?
> 
> ​
> *1 legendary 1578 MELZ tube on sale
> ...


Yes, like those.


----------



## mordy

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yes, like those.


It says in the listing for the tube on sale now on eBay that it is from 1984. Are there other years of production that are preferable?
Usually people say that earlier Russian production is better.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

mordy said:


> It says in the listing for the tube on sale now on eBay that it is from 1984. Are there other years of production that are preferable?
> Usually people say that earlier Russian production is better.


That I don't know.  There are others in this thread who are more familiar with the Melz.  I'm passing along the info from a friend who lives in Ukraine and is helping with the resistance movement.  They use revenue generated from tube sales to help fund the effort.


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> It says in the listing for the tube on sale now on eBay that it is from 1984. Are there other years of production that are preferable?
> Usually people say that earlier Russian production is better.


I have 1578's from '56 and '63.  I like the '56 better. Not night and day, but it has more harmonic detail and depth in the mids to my ears.  I haven't tried any years beyond those though.

Of the standard Melz 6N8S's, I have some from the '50's, '60's, and '70's.  The '50's and '60's sound quite good with little difference between them, but the '70's step down a notch. Not as dynamic and can be a bit lean in the mids and upper bass (compared to the earlier years).   Don't have any '80's in the stash.

With Fotons, '50's are it.  60's and later aren't necessarily bad tubes, but they have no cheap tube magic.  McTubes.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I have 1578's from '56 and '63.  I like the '56 better. Not night and day, but it has more harmonic detail and depth in the mids to my ears.  I haven't tried any years beyond those though.
> 
> Of the standard Melz 6N8S's, I have some from the '50's, '60's, and '70's.  The '50's and '60's sound quite good with little difference between them, but the '70's step down a notch. Not as dynamic and can be a bit lean in the mids and upper bass (compared to the earlier years).   Don't have any '80's in the stash.
> 
> With Fotons, '50's are it.  60's and later aren't necessarily bad tubes, but they have no cheap tube magic.  McTubes.


Those years are 1900s….with bcowen, one must be sure….🤣


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jonathan c said:


> Those years are 1900s….with bcowen, one must be sure….🤣


Are....are you suggesting that @bcowen is a time-traveler?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Those years are 1900s….with bcowen, one must be sure….🤣


Thanks for clarifying that.  I keep forgetting that not everyone has a time machine.  This weekend I'm heading back to 1946 to get a truckload of Western Electric 300B's.  Anybody else need anything?


----------



## jonathan c

ColSaulTigh said:


> Are....are you suggesting that @bcowen is a time-traveler?


No….just a time-spanner….😜


----------



## bcowen

ColSaulTigh said:


> Are....are you suggesting that @bcowen is a time-traveler?


Shhhhh......that's not supposed to be made public until 1973.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Thanks for clarifying that.  I keep forgetting that not everyone has a time machine.  This weekend I'm heading back to 1946 to get a truckload of Western Electric 300B's.  Anybody else need anything?


No, no, no. Get the WE 300Bs, the GEC 6AS7Gs, the pre-GE Ken-Rads, IN MASS BULK; return to 2022 & the cardboard house; and WAIT…😈😏…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Shhhhh......that's not supposed to be made public until 1973.


The beans were spilled in 2025…🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> The beans were spilled in 2025…🤣🤣🤣


I blame that on you then.  Now I have to jump to the future, and gas is a LOT more expensive.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> Thanks for clarifying that.  I keep forgetting that not everyone has a time machine.  This weekend I'm heading back to 1946 to get a truckload of Western Electric 300B's.  Anybody else need anything?


This is cringeworthy:
Read an article in Stereophile about a guy collecting old Western Electric horn speakers. He went to a place where they had a lot of old stuff. The kids working there used Western Electric 300B tubes for target practice. He asked them about it and they said: Who cares - these tubes are used!


----------



## jonathan c

mordy said:


> This is cringeworthy:
> Read an article in Stereophile about a guy collecting old Western Electric horn speakers. He went to a place where they had a lot of old stuff. The kids working there used Western Electric 300B tubes for target practice. He asked them about it and they said: Who cares - these tubes are used!


…get on the bcowen millennium shuttle, go back, antiques kids for target practice?…😏


----------



## Slade01

jonathan c said:


> …get on the bcowen millennium shuttle, go back, antiques kids for target practice?…😏


only after he goes back to 1985 and practices his skillz on hogan's alley at the 7-11 and drinking a slurpee and listening on koss porta pros.


----------



## mordy

Slade01 said:


> only after he goes back to 1985 and practices his skillz on hogan's alley at the 7-11 and drinking a slurpee and listening on koss porta pros.


Don't dismiss the Koss Porta Pro -I still have one. - Name me one headphone that has been in production (unchanged) since the 1984! 




(


----------



## Slade01

mordy said:


> Don't dismiss the Koss Porta Pro -I still have one. - Name me one headphone that has been in production (unchanged) since the 1984!


LOL.  I never count the KPPs out.  I have one too.  In fact, I was just listening to them a bit earlier this evening - just put on a fresh set of Yaxi Pads on them.  You're right, very few if at all has survived all this time still unchanged.  I was actually shocked they still made these when I was first getting into the headphone hobby a few years ago.


----------



## LoryWiv

ColSaulTigh said:


> I can ask him if you're interested.  These are proper 1578's with the mouse ears and rectangle bottom plate.  Should be around $400/NOS pair.


That's very gracious of you @ColSaulTigh. The only other thing to bear in mind when buying vintage Russian tubes is that pins may need re-solder or at least re-flow. That puts me off as I'm not adept at such things.


----------



## JTbbb

MacMan31 said:


> This is why I'm thinking of getting out of tubes. To continue buying more to try is pretty expensive these days.


A case in point! Of course these tubes may seem expensive to some and cheap to others. But I acquired these for under $100. I am fairly certain I have a Brimar 1988 on the left, and definitely a RCA Grey Glass VT231 on the right, not sure on the middle one? Any info anyone? Tested good 10 years ago, and been in storage ever since. These will keep me amused for quite a while. I shall put them with others I have in my Euforia to check them out, and soon I will have a nicely modded Crack to use them in. At some point I shall get them tested. Happy days!


----------



## mordy

JTbbb said:


> A case in point! Of course these tubes may seem expensive to some and cheap to others. But I acquired these for under $100. I am fairly certain I have a Brimar 1988 on the left, and definitely a RCA Grey Glass VT231 on the right, not sure on the middle one? Any info anyone? Tested good 10 years ago, and been in storage ever since. These will keep me amused for quite a while. I shall put them with others I have in my Euforia to check them out, and soon I will have a nicely modded Crack to use them in. At some point I shall get them tested. Happy days!


The middle tube looks to be a National Union.


----------



## JTbbb

mordy said:


> The middle tube looks to be a National Union.


I believe they sound good?


----------



## Renexx (May 17, 2022)

NU vt-231 is sweet sounding like RCA vt-231 but a little bit different. It's a good tube for sure.

There is also a black glass NU version. Its bass heavy like a kenrad vt-231 but it's more liquid sounding.


----------



## Ranger Ron

JTbbb said:


> I believe they sound good?


Yeah, the NU gray glass has more treble emphasis than the RCA. Also not as bloomy sounding. Very smooth tubes.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Ranger Ron said:


> Yeah, the NU gray glass has more treble emphasis than the RCA. Also not as bloomy sounding. Very smooth tubes.


NU Black Glass (not the Gray or smoked) sounds like a good Sylvania to me...but with BASS heft.


----------



## TLO

JazzVinyl said:


> NU Black Glass (not the Gray or smoked) sounds like a good Sylvania to me...but with BASS heft.


Sound lovely with Jazz One of my favorite tubes.


----------



## JTbbb

JazzVinyl said:


> NU Black Glass (not the Gray or smoked) sounds like a good Sylvania to me...but with BASS heft.


I’m not sure whether it’s black or grey glass. I should get them tomorrow or Thursday.


----------



## paradoxper

rawheadjim said:


> What kind of $$ are we talking here for a pair?  I don't know if I'm worthy but curious for sure....


They are legit and are one of few main sources for MELZ stock.


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> I’m not sure whether it’s black or grey glass. I should get them tomorrow or Thursday.


It looks grey to me, the BG version is opaque and has a very high reflection. Lastly, there is a small clear opening on the BG version but grey version is fully coated.


----------



## Mr Trev

mordy said:


> Don't dismiss the Koss Porta Pro -I still have one. - Name me one headphone that has been in production (unchanged) since the 1984!
> 
> (





Slade01 said:


> LOL.  I never count the KPPs out.  I have one too.  In fact, I was just listening to them a bit earlier this evening - just put on a fresh set of Yaxi Pads on them.  You're right, very few if at all has survived all this time still unchanged.  I was actually shocked they still made these when I was first getting into the headphone hobby a few years ago.


Aren't Porta Pros and Sansa Clip Zip (rockboxed of course) the two biggest gateway drugs for folks here on HF?

back to 6SN7 talk…


----------



## mordy (May 17, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> Aren't Porta Pros and Sansa Clip Zip (rockboxed of course) the two biggest gateway drugs for folks here on HF?
> 
> back to 6SN7 talk…


I assume everybody on these threads has old gear hanging around. I use the porta Pro to test new tubes to make sure that I don't blow a headphone driver from a large pop or explosion. You know, the Porta Pros have a lifetime guarantee...
I actually listened to them some time back - great bass. A $25 headphone (they cost more now) and a $2000 headphone amp is a good combination.
The Sansa Clip - put my portable music on my iPhone instead lol.

But back to the 6SN7 talk. Here is a useful list of manufacturers of military JAN (*J*oint *A*rmy *N*avy Nomenclature System) tubes - instituted around 1943:

CG            General Electric
CHS          Sylvania
CHY          Hytron
CKR          Ken-Rad
CNU         National Union
CRC          RCA
CRP          Raytheon
CS            Sperry
CTL           Tung Sol
CW           Western Electric
CWL         Westinghouse
CAHG       Chatham
CBOP        Lewis and Kaufman

All these designations start with the letter C and the next two (or one) letters have some kind of relationship to the manufacturer's name. Don't know if you can say for sure that a tube with these designations was made after 1943 but my source seems to indicate this.

And to add one more item: If your tube has the markings MR it will date it between 1942 - 1945. MR = Manufacturers Replacement. During the war years tubes were rationed and mainly set aside for military use, but a portion was set aside for the civilian market. Don't know if these tubes had different specs than the military tubes.


----------



## toddc2

mordy said:


> I assume everybody on these threads has old gear hanging around. I use the porta Pro to test new tubes to make sure that I don't blow a headphone driver from a large pop or explosion. You know, the Porta Pros have a lifetime guarantee...
> I actually listened to them some time back - great bass. A $25 headphone (they cost more now) and a $2000 headphone amp is a good combination.
> The Sansa Clip - put my portable music on my iPhone instead lol.
> 
> ...


This is a very informative post. We are now at 468 pages on this thread and I think I have read the whole thing over the last couple of weeks. There is an incredible amount of information to be found but I would be hard pressed to quickly find any of the more useful posts.

So…are there any forum guru’s out there that know if a thread indexing system is available?


----------



## paradoxper

Nice collection of tubes in the F/S forum including yummy MELZ.


----------



## rawheadjim

paradoxper said:


> Nice collection of tubes in the F/S forum including yummy MELZ.


Thanks for the heads up, I see a sold pair of MELZ in the classifieds, they were 63's for $250 which sounded like a sweet deal!  I wouldn't mind helping the Ukraine war effort but the dates seem critical to be worth higher $$.  I've read on here that late 50's and early 60's are the best, but I know so little about the later years.


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> This is cringeworthy:
> Read an article in Stereophile about a guy collecting old Western Electric horn speakers. He went to a place where they had a lot of old stuff. The kids working there used Western Electric 300B tubes for target practice. He asked them about it and they said: Who cares - these tubes are used!


That makes my heart hurt.


----------



## paradoxper

rawheadjim said:


> Thanks for the heads up, I see a sold pair of MELZ in the classifieds, they were 63's for $250 which sounded like a sweet deal!  I wouldn't mind helping the Ukraine war effort but the dates seem critical to be worth higher $$.  I've read on here that late 50's and early 60's are the best, but I know so little about the later years.


I've now only heard two pair of the 70 MELZ which I still own with low declarative confidence I'd say they're slightly inferior to the 50/60's.
My personal favorite is early 60's and I could perhaps put more focus on comparative sessions, however, frankly, I'm too involved with other tube rolling endeavors.


----------



## Deceneu808 (May 18, 2022)

rawheadjim said:


> I see a sold pair of MELZ in the classifieds, they were 63's for $250 which sounded like a sweet deal!


Still up 

Had to adjust the pricings accordingly


----------



## JTbbb

It did indeed turn out to be a Brimar CV1988 GTY. And, could I have help dating the US NAVY CNU. Thanks.


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> It did indeed turn out to be a Brimar CV1988 GTY. And, could I have help dating the US NAVY CNU. Thanks.


G is 1943...not sure about second letter U

G - 1943
H - 1944
I - 1945
J - 1946
.....


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> G is 1943...not sure about second letter U
> 
> G - 1943
> H - 1944
> ...


Excellent, thank you.


----------



## mordy (May 18, 2022)

TLO said:


> G is 1943...not sure about second letter U
> 
> G - 1943
> H - 1944
> ...


The second letter U is a month designation, but the same letter U means different months for different years. - Possibly it could mean a quarter or a period of several months.
GU = July 1943 (This I know from comparing dates on a box with the designations on the tube.)

Here are my notes on the subject of National Union date codes. The exact dates are culled from tubes with boxes, but maybe somebody can explain it better and or figure out the system they used. Also, you can extrapolate the first letter and go further back in time.
*First letter:
G 1943
H 1944
I 1945
J 1946* 
GU is July 1943
HU is June 1944
IN is May 1945
IU June 1945
IU April 45
IU March 45
HC Oct 44 
 Quarters?:
U is March April June/July May maybe
N is March April May probably
R June
C October?


----------



## Pondoro

I have a Saga + and a Vali 2+, Vali 2 is converted to 6SN7 via an adapter. Jut today I got a used Lyr 3 from the bay, it came with a "Crosley" 6SN7 tube. I have no idea if Crosley made tubes or had someone else print Crosley on tubes for them. I actually live in Cincinnati and have read/seen a lot of Crosley history, but I have never heard any tube nuts say anything good or bad about Crosley tubes. I am listening to the Lyr with the Crosley tube and I really like it. I would need to rearrange equipment to compare it directly to the Saga, I will do that eventually. But from memory the Lyr has better bass and better cymbals than the Saga. Not "dominatingly" better, just better. I am a big fan of the Saga. For the last few months the Saga has been used in a room with smaller speakers so I am reaching way back. To be fair I need to listen to the Lyr and the Saga with the same speakers amp, and source. I will do it. I guess I also need to listen with the same tubes. It will be interesting. 

The Lyr also has a multibit card but the input is USB and I do not have a PC near it right now. So if I set up a PC I can compete multibit DAC versus Modi 3. 

So much to do!


----------



## jonathan c

Pondoro said:


> I have a Saga + and a Vali 2+, Vali 2 is converted to 6SN7 via an adapter. Jut today I got a used Lyr 3 from the bay, it came with a "Crosley" 6SN7 tube. I have no idea if Crosley made tubes or had someone else print Crosley on tubes for them. I actually live in Cincinnati and have read/seen a lot of Crosley history, but I have never heard any tube nuts say anything good or bad about Crosley tubes. I am listening to the Lyr with the Crosley tube and I really like it. I would need to rearrange equipment to compare it directly to the Saga, I will do that eventually. But from memory the Lyr has better bass and better cymbals than the Saga. Not "dominatingly" better, just better. I am a big fan of the Saga. For the last few months the Saga has been used in a room with smaller speakers so I am reaching way back. To be fair I need to listen to the Lyr and the Saga with the same speakers amp, and source. I will do it. I guess I also need to listen with the same tubes. It will be interesting.
> 
> The Lyr also has a multibit card but the input is USB and I do not have a PC near it right now. So if I set up a PC I can compete multibit DAC versus Modi 3.
> 
> So much to do!


…it beats chores!…🤣


----------



## Slade01

Pondoro said:


> I have no idea if Crosley made tubes or had someone else print Crosley on tubes for them. I actually live in Cincinnati and have read/seen a lot of Crosley history, but I have never heard any tube nuts say anything good or bad about Crosley tubes. I am listening to the Lyr with the Crosley tube and I really like it.



I also have a Crosley 6SN7 tube.  They sourced it from RCA.  I attached a pic of the box - where it indicates RCA.   Mine happens to be a gray glass RCA - branded Crosley and they sound good.


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> I also have a Crosley 6SN7 tube.  They sourced it from RCA.  I attached a pic of the box - where it indicates RCA.   Mine happens to be a gray glass RCA - branded Crosley and they sound good.


“Long life, quality performance”: definitely _not _*GE… 🤣*


----------



## mordy

Slade01 said:


> I also have a Crosley 6SN7 tube.  They sourced it from RCA.  I attached a pic of the box - where it indicates RCA.   Mine happens to be a gray glass RCA - branded Crosley and they sound good.


It seems that Crosley was a rebrander when it came to tubes. However, the story of Crosley is fascinating and I want to share a great article I just read. It is well worth reading and describes really incredible inventions. Here is a quote that speaks about the world's most powerful tube amplifier (used for radio transmissions):
_"Here’s one for the audiophiles: the audio section had two 35,000-pound output transformers, each 10 feet tall, and could produce 400,000 watts of audio. It is believed to be the largest vacuum tube audio amplifier ever built. "_

https://www.wshu.org/vintage-radio/2017-11-16/powel-crosley-jr-and-the-nations-radio-station

You'll thank me for this truly enjoyable article.





And the world's largest tube UV862 - 5 feet tall:



Water cooling is necessary:


----------



## TLO

mordy said:


> The second letter U is a month designation, but the same letter U means different months for different years. - Possibly it could mean a quarter or a period of several months.
> GU = July 1943 (This I know from comparing dates on a box with the designations on the tube.)
> 
> Here are my notes on the subject of National Union date codes. The exact dates are culled from tubes with boxes, but maybe somebody can explain it better and or figure out the system they used. Also, you can extrapolate the first letter and go further back in time.
> ...


One thing always puzzles me, why do all of my NU 6SN7 are using all numeric instead of letters for date?





I am guessing 51-21 is 1951 21st week and 244 is 1942 44th week.


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> One thing always puzzles me, why do all of my NU 6SN7 are using all numeric instead of letters for date?
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing 51-21 is 1951 21st week and 244 is 1942 44th week.


I was thinking that maybe they are later? This tube is on eBay France, I think I can make out an S before U. I was almost tempted but for the cost of postage + customs charges. Would of gone nice with the one I have recently purchased.


----------



## Pondoro

mordy said:


> It seems that Crosley was a rebrander when it came to tubes. However, the story of Crosley is fascinating and I want to share a great article I just read. It is well worth reading and describes really incredible inventions. Here is a quote that speaks about the world's most powerful tube amplifier (used for radio transmissions):
> _"Here’s one for the audiophiles: the audio section had two 35,000-pound output transformers, each 10 feet tall, and could produce 400,000 watts of audio. It is believed to be the largest vacuum tube audio amplifier ever built. "_
> 
> https://www.wshu.org/vintage-radio/2017-11-16/powel-crosley-jr-and-the-nations-radio-station
> ...


I *do* thank you, the article is very enjoyable, even to someone who has read a couple of books about Crosley. I drove past that famous antenna every day for about five years. There are houses right across the street, legend is that when the station was at high power fluorescent tubes in those houses would glow spontaneously. I have no idea if it is true. I am thrilled to have a Crosley tube in my collection, rebranded or not.


----------



## mordy

Pondoro said:


> I *do* thank you, the article is very enjoyable, even to someone who has read a couple of books about Crosley. I drove past that famous antenna every day for about five years. There are houses right across the street, legend is that when the station was at high power fluorescent tubes in those houses would glow spontaneously. I have no idea if it is true. I am thrilled to have a Crosley tube in my collection, rebranded or not.


I am sure it is true because I was once near a large radio transmitter tower in 1962 and somebody showed me that if you held up a string of 12V lights in the air, they flickered.


----------



## Pondoro

mordy said:


> I am sure it is true because I was once near a large radio transmitter tower in 1962 and somebody showed me that if you held up a string of 12V lights in the air, they flickered.


Another WLW story - I lived in upstate New York but learned that I would move to Cincinnati in a few months. I immediately began listening to WLW, my Chevrolet car radio and NAD tuner pulled them in easily (~1989, they were at the low power 50,000 watts then.)


----------



## Ranger Ron

TLO said:


> One thing always puzzles me, why do all of my NU 6SN7 are using all numeric instead of letters for date?
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing 51-21 is 1951 21st week and 244 is 1942 44th week.


If you’re really lucky, one of your NU tubes will have round plates like the plates used in NU 6F8G tubes. Hard to see sometimes but with a good flashlight you might see the plate structures. Whether or not they sound different, I do not know.


----------



## TLO (May 19, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> I was thinking that maybe they are later? This tube is on eBay France, I think I can make out an S before U. I was almost tempted but for the cost of postage + customs charges. Would of gone nice with the one I have recently purchased.


Before, I was thinking the same but then I found out the name print of NU changes through different periods. I believe it was originally spelled out in full like the two pieces on the right...NATIONAL UNION, this is why I know they are 1942 and not 1952. *ERROR* Next is the one on the left, with two lightning symbols on the sides of UNION and finally we have just the big letter of NU with or without lightning symbols. I think with lightning symbols come first, then just NU. I had a pair of these but sold them (see second pic). If I remember correctly, they have the letters code instead of numeric, N-1950 and P-1952. So, it brings back the question, does the letter or numeric code come first? ...or perhaps there are a overlap of both code system at the same time.


----------



## TLO

Ranger Ron said:


> If you’re really lucky, one of your NU tubes will have round plates like the plates used in NU 6F8G tubes. Hard to see sometimes but with a good flashlight you might see the plate structures. Whether or not they sound different, I do not know.


LMAO...I know that, checked them...no such luck


----------



## Ranger Ron

TLO said:


> LMAO...I know that, checked them...no such luck





TLO said:


> Before, I was thinking the same but then I found out the name print of NU changes through different periods. I believe it was originally spelled out in full like the two pieces on the right...NATIONAL UNION, this is why I know they are 1942 and not 1952. Next is the one on the left, with two lightning symbols on the sides of UNION and finally we have just the big letter of NU with or without lightning symbols. I think with lightning symbols come first, then just NU. I had a pair of these but sold them (see second pic). If I remember correctly, they have the letters code instead of numeric, N-1950 and P-1952. So, it brings back the question, does the letter or numeric code come first? ...or perhaps there are a overlap of both code system at the same time.


I personally don’t believe that tube was made in 1942. No way NU had a ten year run with that tube. But, who knows.


----------



## TLO (May 19, 2022)

Ranger Ron said:


> I personally don’t believe that tube was made in 1942. No way NU had a ten year run with that tube. But, who knows.


Oh yeah, you are right!!!My bad, it is a 1952!!!

Update: So, I think the mystery is basically solved. Letters code comes first, followed by numeric around 1951 to 1952. I believe there is an overlap between 1951 to 1952 becos I am very sure I had a P code (1952) once.


----------



## JTbbb (May 19, 2022)

Ranger Ron said:


> If you’re really lucky, one of your NU tubes will have round plates like the plates used in NU 6F8G tubes. Hard to see sometimes but with a good flashlight you might see the plate structures. Whether or not they sound different, I do not know.


Which part of the structure are you referring to? The top mica? Or what I might call the anodes?

Edit: And would it apply to my tube?


----------



## Ranger Ron

JTbbb said:


> Which part of the structure are you referring to? The top mica? Or what I might call the anodes?
> 
> Edit: And would it apply to my tube?


Yes, the anodes.  I’m referring to the black glass NU.


----------



## Slade01

mordy said:


> https://www.wshu.org/vintage-radio/2017-11-16/powel-crosley-jr-and-the-nations-radio-station
> 
> You'll thank me for this truly enjoyable article.


Hi Mordy - thanks for sharing this great article.  Its truly interesting to see how innovations spur further innovation (proximity fuses to the modern disc breaks? whhhaaaat?)  Also cool that his tower was able to reach people globally given the high powered operation, no small feat in that day and age.  Really fascinating stuff.


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> Which part of the structure are you referring to? The top mica? Or what I might call the anodes?
> 
> Edit: And would it apply to my tube?


@Ranger Ron basically refers to what most people called plates, and yes also anodes.


----------



## mordy (May 19, 2022)

TLO said:


> One thing always puzzles me, why do all of my NU 6SN7 are using all numeric instead of letters for date?
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing 51-21 is 1951 21st week and 244 is 1942 44th week.


I have seen this many times on WW2 tubes - the same brand tube manufactured at the same time having coded dates  and explicit dates. It is one of the mysteries in the world of tubes - perhaps certain military runs specified explicit dates and others not; could be that different sections of the military had different requirements. The British used completely different tube designations for the same tube for the army, navy, Air Force and civilian use.
Regarding the right tube in the picture above it is even possible that it is a rebranded tube marked NU - the print and logo are different than the standard NU.


----------



## TLO

mordy said:


> I have seen this many times on WW2 tubes - the same brand tube manufactured at the same time having coded dates  and explicit dates. It is one of the mysteries in the world of tubes - perhaps certain military runs specified explicit dates and others not; could be that different sections of the military had different requirements. The British used completely different tube designations for the same tube for the army, navy, Air Force and civilian use.
> Regarding the right tube in the picture above it is even possible that it is a rebranded tube marked NU - the print and logo are different than the standard NU.


yes, to add to the confusion, I have noticed that NU 6SN7 BG has many top and bottom mica combinations compared to other brands on 6SN7 tubes.


----------



## Ranger Ron

TLO said:


> yes, to add to the confusion, I have noticed that NU 6SN7 BG has many top and bottom mica combinations compared to other brands on 6SN7 tubes.


It seems they just used whatever they had laying around 🤷🏽‍♂️


----------



## bcowen (May 19, 2022)

mordy said:


> It seems that Crosley was a rebrander when it came to tubes. However, the story of Crosley is fascinating and I want to share a great article I just read. It is well worth reading and describes really incredible inventions. Here is a quote that speaks about the world's most powerful tube amplifier (used for radio transmissions):
> _"Here’s one for the audiophiles: the audio section had two 35,000-pound output transformers, each 10 feet tall, and could produce 400,000 watts of audio. It is believed to be the largest vacuum tube audio amplifier ever built. "_
> 
> https://www.wshu.org/vintage-radio/2017-11-16/powel-crosley-jr-and-the-nations-radio-station
> ...


Thanks for that, @mordy !

And just to put things in perspective, 8 of the UV862's were required to get that 400,000 watts.  If done with 6SN7's it would have required 145,455.  And plain 6SN7's and 6SN7GT's need not apply -- you'd need -GTA's or -GTB's run at max voltage.


----------



## RobertSM

bcowen said:


> Thanks for that, @mordy !
> 
> And just to put things in perspective, 8 of the UV862's were required to get that 400,000 watts.  If done with 6SN7's it would have required 145,455.  And plain 6SN7's and 6SN7GT's need not apply -- you'd need -GTA's or -GTB's run at max voltage.


And....any GE tube need not apply! 😉


----------



## mordy

RobertSM said:


> And....any GE tube need not apply! 😉


Don't knock GE - both GE and RCA were involved in designing the transmitter needed to get out that 400,000W signal.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Thanks for that, @mordy !
> 
> And just to put things in perspective, 8 of the UV862's were required to get that 400,000 watts.  If done with 6SN7's it would have required 145,455.  And plain 6SN7's and 6SN7GT's need not apply -- you'd need -GTA's or -GTB's run at max voltage.


Sounds like you have just enough


----------



## RobertSM

mordy said:


> Don't knock GE - both GE and RCA were involved in designing the transmitter needed to get out that 400,000W signal.


No I'm not knocking GE. Just having a laugh with the on-going Head-Fi joke of making fun of GE tubes. 👍🏼😄😉


----------



## mordy

RobertSM said:


> No I'm not knocking GE. Just having a laugh with the on-going Head-Fi joke of making fun of GE tubes. 👍🏼😄😉


Yes, we all need good humor and good jokes...




But I can't figure out this ancient cartoon...

This one is new to me:



And this one is for Triod750 who likes the cello:



I know, I know, it's off topic, but...


----------



## FLTWS

I remember those days of tubed car radios and even LP players in the larger floaters of the day like Cadillac's. No center consoles back then that I can remember, all bench seats, my black 58' Chevy Impala sedan was sweet ride and roomy.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (May 20, 2022)

Got some new tubes today...

RCA JAN CRC 6SN7 GT VT-231 TUBE 1945 GRAY SMOKE PERFECTLY MATCHED SET NIB MINT!

These really do look mint, too!  It's almost a shame to use them.

Almost.


----------



## Nicolas Yance

ColSaulTigh said:


> Got some new tunes today...
> 
> RCA JAN CRC 6SN7 GT VT-231 TUBE 1945 GRAY SMOKE PERFECTLY MATCHED SET NIB MINT!
> 
> ...


A bit off topic, how do you like the Atrium with the WA5? I also got one myself and am thinking about getting a ZMF.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

They're really delightful, actually!  Extremely resolving, strong, with the right balance across the board.  Pad rolling the Atriums makes a dramatic difference (tip: pick up some Verite BE2 Perforated pads if/when you order).  They did take about 100 hours to burn in, but so far I'm really impressed.  Paired with the WA5-LE they're fantastic.  I just got my Takatsuki's yesterday (and the RCA's today), so those also need some time to settle in, but the WA5 has plenty of power to drive anything you throw at it (AFAIK).  My one point of note is that compared to my Meze Elites, they are noticeably heavier on the head (as one would expect).  They're not uncomfortable, just a much different feel.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Sounds like you have just enough


Well that is what's frustrating.  128,200 of my 6SN7's are GT's.  So I'm way short on GTA's and GTB's.  Seems like it's _always_ something with tubes.   

(PS: like the new avatar )


----------



## Isaacc7

I'm as guilty as anyone for obsessing about super exotic tubes and chasing audio nirvana with lots if cash. But often times synergy is more important than rarity. If I had any damn sense I'd stop swapping tubes for a while and just enjoy this budget combo. Even with just a few hours on them this combo of tall 7n7, black plate GE 6k6gt, and Tungsol 5w4gt sounds extraordinary. Big, detailed, and super cheap!


----------



## bcowen

ColSaulTigh said:


> Got some new tubes today...
> 
> RCA JAN CRC 6SN7 GT VT-231 TUBE 1945 GRAY SMOKE PERFECTLY MATCHED SET NIB MINT!
> 
> ...


Sweet!  So how do they sound?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  So how do they sound?


So far, nice.  I think that, combined with the Takatsuki's, they're a little on the bright side, lacking warmth and punch.  They do appear to give me a VERY resolving system though - I'm pretty sure I'm hearing stuff like echos and other background vocals I never heard before in some tracks.


----------



## JTbbb

ColSaulTigh said:


> Got some new tubes today...
> 
> RCA JAN CRC 6SN7 GT VT-231 TUBE 1945 GRAY SMOKE PERFECTLY MATCHED SET NIB MINT!
> 
> ...


I know exactly how you feel! I have these, NIB, never been used, and test NOS and above. I’m afraid to use them! Still nice to own though 😀


----------



## toddc2

Wow! That a nice stash of BGRP!


----------



## TLO

JTbbb said:


> I know exactly how you feel! I have these, NIB, never been used, and test NOS and above. I’m afraid to use them! Still nice to own though 😀


Don't worry, just get another 5 or more pairs for spare, so you wouldn't feel so bad using them...


----------



## ColSaulTigh (May 21, 2022)

It's like owning an exotic car.  Why buy it if you're afraid to drive it.  Put them in and listen to them.  Enjoy them. If you wanted to just look at them, you should have just downloaded a picture of them.


----------



## JTbbb

Oh dear TLO, this tube disease precedes your words! I’ve done that already with these pairs! I’m determined to buy no more tubes, but to thin the herd 😀😀


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Don't worry, just get another 5 or more pairs for spare, so you wouldn't feel so bad using them...


More tubes is the correct answer to.......pretty much everything.


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> More tubes is the correct answer to.......pretty much everything.


Yes, precisely, whenever you have a problem in life, just buy more tubes and all will be fine.


----------



## Ranger Ron

JTbbb said:


> Oh dear TLO, this tube disease precedes your words! I’ve done that already with these pairs! I’m determined to buy no more tubes, but to thin the herd 😀😀


The only reason to sell tubes is to fund other tubes.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Yes, precisely, whenever you have a problem in life, just buy more tubes and all will be fine.


I dunno... I might have hit rock bottom. I might actually have a problem. I said I wasn't going to buy any more tubes for a while. I have so many tubes and combos now I may never try all of them. Then I looked over the Billington catalog just one more time... Ugh. I've got, I dunno, 25-30 more tubes coming my way. I'll also be ordering another 12 from Nebraska surplus. Buying for a push pull amp sucks compared to single ended! Or is it twice as good? <shrug>

I take solace in that I managed to avoid ordering the ecc32 and tt21 tubes. I would love to have them but the prices! Tube royalty for sure but I'll stick to the less expensive stuff. It allows me to buy more!


----------



## DougD

I'm not going to call any of you good people "h__rd_rs"  ... but ... I hope that those of you with let's call them "large collections of tubes" ... have a WRITTEN plan in your will detailing how you want your tube collection returned to the hobby when your personal magic smoke escapes for the last time. YOU should make that/those decision(s), rather than dumping it on family members or an executor who likely do not appreciate the collection (and its value) like you do.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

DougD said:


> I'm not going to call any of you good people "h__rd_rs"  ... but ... I hope that those of you with let's call them "large collections of tubes" ... have a WRITTEN plan in your will detailing how you want your tube collection returned to the hobby when your personal magic smoke escapes for the last time. YOU should make that/those decision(s), rather than dumping it on family members or an executor who likely do not appreciate the collection (and its value) like you do.


In going to be buried with mine.


----------



## raindownthunda

ColSaulTigh said:


> In going to be buried with mine.


A glimpse into the future of tube amp ownership in 2100, consisting of legends of buried tube treasures past down from generations… intrepid tube hunters will embark on expeditions to seek out buried caches of rare NOS tubes. By methodically researching ancient head-fi threads, internet historians will discover hints on where to set out to find the best loot.


----------



## Mr Trev

ColSaulTigh said:


> In going to be buried with mine.


My plan is that I hopefully end up with enough that they can use them to cremate me


----------



## Isaacc7

DougD said:


> I'm not going to call any of you good people "h__rd_rs"  ... but ... I hope that those of you with let's call them "large collections of tubes" ... have a WRITTEN plan in your will detailing how you want your tube collection returned to the hobby when your personal magic smoke escapes for the last time. YOU should make that/those decision(s), rather than dumping it on family members or an executor who likely do not appreciate the collection (and its value) like you do.


In theory I will narrow down what tubes work the best with my amp/speakers and then I will sell the rest that don't work for me. I have 400+ tubes I have already designated for sale. Those were from a buying binge a decade and a half ago when I had DIY pretensions. Oh how I wish I stocked up on regular tubes instead of alternative bases, 12v tubes, and DIY only tubes. But who could blame me, $90 for GEC kt66? $100 for KT88? $60 for TSBGRP 6sn7? They must be crazy! I try not to think about it now...


----------



## toddc2

Mr Trev said:


> My plan is that I hopefully end up with enough that they can use them to cremate me


Now that’s funny, nicely done!!!


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> (PS: like the new avatar )


ECGs on the other end?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ECGs on the other end?


Huh?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Huh?


ECGs in the amp on the other end?…😒 why is potatohead’s ‘hair’ on end?…


----------



## Isaacc7

Thinking about it, if someone did want to call me a hoarder I would be ok with that with the understanding that I am mostly hoarding unloved and forgotten tubes. I have gone out of my way to make sure I can use 12v tubes in my equipment and I love using adapters. I use 14n7, 12j5, bl63, 6c8g, 2c50, 12sx7, 12sl7, and good old fashioned 12sn7 tubes for inputs/preamp among others. I also tend to use output tubes like 7c5, 6bg6, 807, 6ar6, el38, and soon I'll start using 12v outputs like n34, gu50, 12aq5, and 12av5. The custom equipment costs a bit more but the tubes are much less expensive. 

So yeah, maybe some would call me a hoarder but I like to think of myself as a rescuer OMG, am I actually a tube hipster? Gah!


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> I dunno... I might have hit rock bottom. I might actually have a problem. I said I wasn't going to buy any more tubes for a while. I have so many tubes and combos now I may never try all of them. Then I looked over the Billington catalog just one more time... Ugh. I've got, I dunno, 25-30 more tubes coming my way. I'll also be ordering another 12 from Nebraska surplus. Buying for a push pull amp sucks compared to single ended! Or is it twice as good? <shrug>
> 
> I take solace in that I managed to avoid ordering the ecc32 and tt21 tubes. I would love to have them but the prices! Tube royalty for sure but I'll stick to the less expensive stuff. It allows me to buy more!


Send some my way, I will help to try them


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Send some my way, I will help to try them


The prices for the tt21 weren’t actually that bad. I think he was quoting $200 for NOS though he hadn’t tested them yet. They will be less if they test below new. Even with the price of adapters I think that’s decent for GEC KT88. I don’t think he had 4 of them so. I wasn’t really tempted. Even if he did, I wouldn’t pay for 4 of them lol. The NOS Mullard ecc32 at $400 a piece was never going to happen! I would only need one for my current amp but that would be about the same price as my entire order of, um, many tubes!


----------



## mordy

Isaacc7 said:


> The prices for the tt21 weren’t actually that bad. I think he was quoting $200 for NOS though he hadn’t tested them yet. They will be less if they test below new. Even with the price of adapters I think that’s decent for GEC KT88. I don’t think he had 4 of them so. I wasn’t really tempted. Even if he did, I wouldn’t pay for 4 of them lol. The NOS Mullard ecc32 at $400 a piece was never going to happen! I would only need one for my current amp but that would be about the same price as my entire order of, um, many tubes!


If you only need one ECC32 you may want to try the ECC31 with an adapter for 6SN7 (same adapter as for 6N7 tubes).
The ECC31 is supposed to be very similar and costs much less.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/313497801205?hash=item48fdecd1f5:g:M6QAAOSwOCVgYNCw


----------



## mordy (May 22, 2022)

Double post


----------



## Isaacc7

mordy said:


> If you only need one ECC32 you may want to try the ECC31 with an adapter for 6SN7 (same adapter as for 6N7 tubes).
> The ECC31 is supposed to be very similar and costs much less.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/313497801205?hash=item48fdecd1f5:g:M6QAAOSwOCVgYNCw


Wait wait wait wait... I can use 6n7 tubes instead of 6sn7 with a adapter? How have I missed this? 

And what have you done? Why are you offering an addict another drug to try? Well here I go down the rabbit hole....


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Wait wait wait wait... I can use 6n7 tubes instead of 6sn7 with a adapter? How have I missed this?
> 
> And what have you done? Why are you offering an addict another drug to try? Well here I go down the rabbit hole....


No no....I think @mordy is saying that the ECC31 and the 6N7 would use the same adapter to be subbed in a 6SN7 socket.  Pinout for the 6N7 and the ECC31 is the same, but also different than a 6SN7.


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> No no....I think @mordy is saying that the ECC31 and the 6N7 would use the same adapter to be subbed in a 6SN7 socket.  Pinout for the 6N7 and the ECC31 is the same, but also different than a 6SN7.


Right. I want to make sure I understand. With an adapter I can use an ecc31/6n76 instead of a 6sn7? My amp can handle the extra heater current with no problem. I am willing to buy ecc31 and adapter if it is in the neighborhood of the same sound of the ecc32. I wonder how it compares to the bl63? I love that tube and have a few...


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Right. I want to make sure I understand. With an adapter I can use an ecc31/6n76 instead of a 6sn7? My amp can handle the extra heater current with no problem. I am willing to buy ecc31 and adapter if it is in the neighborhood of the same sound of the ecc32. I wonder how it compares to the bl63? I love that tube and have a few...


Yes, if you have an adapter that adapts an ECC31 into a 6SN7 socket, that same adapter will work for a 6N7 going into a 6SN7 socket.  You're already aware of the higher heater current, and the only other thing is the 6N7 has an amplification factor of 35 versus 20 for a 6SN7.  Depends on the amp whether that will cause any issues sonically.


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> Yes, if you have an adapter that adapts an ECC31 into a 6SN7 socket, that same adapter will work for a 6N7 going into a 6SN7 socket.  You're already aware of the higher heater current, and the only other thing is the 6N7 has an amplification factor of 35 versus 20 for a 6SN7.  Depends on the amp whether that will cause any issues sonically.


Hoo boy. Guess I'm adding some ecc31 tubes to my order. Oh, and another adapter. It's just money, right? That'll be the, oh I don't know, the 6789th adapter I'll need. 

Any 6n7 I should look into as long as I'm going to be @Deyan 's retirement plan?


----------



## mordy

Isaacc7 said:


> Hoo boy. Guess I'm adding some ecc31 tubes to my order. Oh, and another adapter. It's just money, right? That'll be the, oh I don't know, the 6789th adapter I'll need.
> 
> Any 6n7 I should look into as long as I'm going to be @Deyan 's retirement plan?


Well, I just thought that you might enjoy the ECC32 sound for a fraction of the cost of that $400 tube. The first time I used an ECC31 tube I got a real scare - the whole tube flashed an orange flash and I thought: OH NO! The tube I have is a very early one and I don't know if later ones have this feature: a quick heat feature that flashes the heater on start-up for quick warm-up. But it is perfectly normal for tubes with this feature and the quick heat feature was used in other tube types as well.
The 6N7 has the same pinout and you can get the metal ones very inexpensive - as always the K-R have good bass. Some people like the Visseaux 6N7G and GT as well, but pricier by now.
But let's face it - you probably have enough tubes that you could spend a lot of time finding very good synergistic combinations with the stuff you have, instead of buying and exploring new tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Hoo boy. Guess I'm adding some ecc31 tubes to my order. Oh, and another adapter. It's just money, right? That'll be the, oh I don't know, the 6789th adapter I'll need.
> 
> Any 6n7 I should look into as long as I'm going to be @Deyan 's retirement plan?


Just remember, there's no such thing as too many tubes adapters.  🤣


----------



## Isaacc7 (May 22, 2022)

mordy said:


> Well, I just thought that you might enjoy the ECC32 sound for a fraction of the cost of that $400 tube. The first time I used an ECC31 tube I got a real scare - the whole tube flashed an orange flash and I thought: OH NO! The tube I have is a very early one and I don't know if later ones have this feature: a quick heat feature that flashes the heater on start-up for quick warm-up. But it is perfectly normal for tubes with this feature and the quick heat feature was used in other tube types as well.
> The 6N7 has the same pinout and you can get the metal ones very inexpensive - as always the K-R have good bass. Some people like the Visseaux 6N7G and GT as well, but pricier by now.
> But let's face it - you probably have enough tubes that you could spend a lot of time finding very good synergistic combinations with the stuff you have, instead of buying and exploring new tubes.


I’m always looking for a taste of what people rave about. And I’m always up for another flavor to add to the mix What I’m hoping for is that the ecc31 will basically be a higher gain bl63, or close enough. I have enough bl63 to last the rest of my life. Their gain is low enough that it can cause problems when combined with some output tubes.


----------



## TLO (May 23, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I’m always looking for a taste of what people rave about. And I’m always up for another flavor to add to the mix What I’m hoping for is that the ecc31 will basically be a higher gain bl63, or close enough. I have enough bl63 to last the rest of my life. Their gain is low enough that it can cause problems when combined with some output tubes.


Just go directly for Mullard ECC31 and not US made 6N7. @gibosi has tried most of them and commented ECC31 has the best SQ. IMO, ECC31 is highly recommended, have 6 pairs in my stash myself. Another good tube to try is the ECC34, if your amp has another input tube connected parallel to the 6SN7 socket. My amp takes 1 X 6SL7 and 2 X 6SN7. As the gain on ECC34 is half of 6SN7, you need another higher gain input tube for compensation. I used a Tesla E83CC, gain of 100, as 6SL7 and they work perfectly, sound amazing.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Just go directly for Mullard ECC31 and not US made 6N7. @gibosi has tried most of them and commented ECC31 has the best SQ. IMO, ECC31 is highly recommended, have 6 pairs in my stash myself. Another good tube to try is the ECC34, if your amp has another input tube connected parallel to the 6SN7 socket. My amp takes 1 X 6SL7 and 2 X 6SN7. As the gain on ECC34 is half of 6SN7, you need another higher gain input tube for compensation. I used a Tesla E83CC, gain of 100, as 6SL7 and they work perfectly, sound amazing.


Any idea how the ecc31/32 compares to the bl63? I know the bl63 has lower gain. My preamp is capable of providing as much gain as necessary so maybe I can try the ecc34 despite not having any other tube in parallel? I am also looking forward to trying the 2c50 which is supposed to also have great qualities but I think has among the lowest, if not the lowest, gain of anything in the twin triode driver world.


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> Any idea how the ecc31/32 compares to the bl63? I know the bl63 has lower gain. My preamp is capable of providing as much gain as necessary so maybe I can try the ecc34 despite not having any other tube in parallel? I am also looking forward to trying the 2c50 which is supposed to also have great qualities but I think has among the lowest, if not the lowest, gain of anything in the twin triode driver world.


Cant say, havent tried BL63. On the ECC34, they sounded having too much weight in my amp pairing with 6SL7 or ECC35, and ECC83 solved the boomy issue. Give them a try in your system, it might be setup dependant.


----------



## triod750

Due to having a 'common cathode', 6N7 cannot replace 6SN7 in every circuit. I ordered adapters to try them as output tubes in my amp that can use a lot of dual triodes, using adapters. I learnt, before even trying, that it wouldn't work. As input tubes they work for me.


----------



## Isaacc7

Just paid for the ecc31 tubes along with 30 others... I'll post about them in the pentode thread. OK, Now I really am done. I have 2 or 3 other tubes I will purchase at some point probably but they are unloved and unlikely to shoot up in price in the next couple of years. Hopefully by then I will have forgotten about them lol.


----------



## Isaacc7

I'm not up on my Raytheon nomenclature so asking for some help. I have seen folks talking about flat plates and t plates. I have even heard of ladder plates. I absolutely love the sound of this particular Raytheon 6f8g and I wonder if there is a 6sn7 with the same construction.





I also have these, are these the flat plates? Haven't tried them yet. 




Which have a better reputation? Is there another type from Raytheon?


----------



## Ranger Ron

Isaacc7 said:


> I'm not up on my Raytheon nomenclature so asking for some help. I have seen folks talking about flat plates and t plates. I have even heard of ladder plates. I absolutely love the sound of this particular Raytheon 6f8g and I wonder if there is a 6sn7 with the same construction.
> 
> 
> I also have these, are these the flat plates? Haven't tried them yet.
> ...


That flat plate tube is a rebranded RCA tube. Raytheon VT231 tubes are highly regarded. They made both a T plate and flat plate version.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ranger Ron said:


> That flat plate tube is a rebranded RCA tube. Raytheon VT231 tubes are highly regarded. They made both a T plate and flat plate version.


So what is the first one called?


----------



## Ranger Ron

Isaacc7 said:


> So what is the first one called?


That tube is most likely made by Raytheon (a fine sounding tube indeed) and has the T style plates.


----------



## TLO (May 24, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I'm not up on my Raytheon nomenclature so asking for some help. I have seen folks talking about flat plates and t plates. I have even heard of ladder plates. I absolutely love the sound of this particular Raytheon 6f8g and I wonder if there is a 6sn7 with the same construction.
> 
> 
> I also have these, are these the flat plates? Haven't tried them yet.
> ...


There are a few kind of flat plates but they are all called flat plates in general. There are flat plates with ladder or ridged like your Raytheon, then there is also a smooth flat plates.


----------



## fuhransahis

Hey folks, does anyone happen to know a trusted source where I can get Ken-Rad or RCA (Grey glass) VT-231s? My usual source is AudioTubes but he only has the CBS in stock. Tube Depot has the former for $400 a pair and the latter for $300, is that the norm and is Tube Depot reliable? Thanks in advance for the help!


----------



## Isaacc7

fuhransahis said:


> Hey folks, does anyone happen to know a trusted source where I can get Ken-Rad or RCA (Grey glass) VT-231s? My usual source is AudioTubes but he only has the CBS in stock. Tube Depot has the former for $400 a pair and the latter for $300, is that the norm and is Tube Depot reliable? Thanks in advance for the help!


You can try vintage tube services though Andy says he’s months behind. I’m shocked at those prices to be honest.


----------



## Odin412

fuhransahis said:


> Hey folks, does anyone happen to know a trusted source where I can get Ken-Rad or RCA (Grey glass) VT-231s? My usual source is AudioTubes but he only has the CBS in stock. Tube Depot has the former for $400 a pair and the latter for $300, is that the norm and is Tube Depot reliable? Thanks in advance for the help!


I've had good experience with Tube Depot in the past but those prices are pretty high.


----------



## Ranger Ron

fuhransahis said:


> Hey folks, does anyone happen to know a trusted source where I can get Ken-Rad or RCA (Grey glass) VT-231s? My usual source is AudioTubes but he only has the CBS in stock. Tube Depot has the former for $400 a pair and the latter for $300, is that the norm and is Tube Depot reliable? Thanks in advance for the help


Have you considered investing in a tube tester? At those asking prices you could find a tester and roll the dice on eBay, only buy if they offer returns. I’ve had good luck doing this. I haven’t paid more than $100 for any heavy hitting top tier 6SN7 🤷🏾‍♂️


----------



## jbua5150

Hey 6SN7 family!
Any info on what these are? 
Obviously 6SN7 GTB
I’m guessing Hitachi?
Are these very rare or old?
Thanks 🙏


----------



## paradoxper

As I am always looking for 300B, I stumbled upon a listing for Pope tubes. 

Who in the world are they?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> As I am always looking for 300B, I stumbled upon a listing for Pope tubes.
> 
> Who in the world are they?


I believe they are re-branded Mullard or Phillips Holland.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> I believe they are re-branded Mullard or Phillips Holland.


Ah, just a rebrand. Quite an expensive one at that.


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> Ah, just a rebrand. Quite an expensive one at that.


Here you go.


----------



## Mr Trev

paradoxper said:


> As I am always looking for 300B, I stumbled upon a listing for Pope tubes.
> 
> Who in the world are they?


"POPE" stands for Productie Overschot Philips Eindhoven (production overrun from Philips Eindhoven), and that name would indicate origin in the Einhoven Philips plant.
<quote from here: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/pope-6v6-tubes.2157073/>

I imagine they sound awesome with Gospel music, requiems, etc.


----------



## RobertSM

The Pope 6V6GT is an outstanding tube. Second to the French made Visseaux 6V6G & 6V6GT.

Your 6SN7 tube is definitely Holland made. Not a rebrand.


----------



## paradoxper

RobertSM said:


> The Pope 6V6GT is an outstanding tube. Second to the French made Visseaux 6V6G & 6V6GT.
> 
> Your 6SN7 tube is definitely Holland made. Not a rebrand.


Oh, POPE ain't replacin' MELZ.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> "POPE" stands for Productie Overschot Philips Eindhoven (production overrun from Philips Eindhoven), and that name would indicate origin in the Einhoven Philips plant.
> <quote from here: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/pope-6v6-tubes.2157073/>
> 
> I imagine they sound awesome with Gospel music, requiems, etc.


LOL!  I see what you did there.  

Perhaps they also restore balance when playing Marilyn Manson…


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I see what you did there.
> 
> Perhaps they also restore balance when playing Marilyn Manson…


Highly unlikely 🤞🤞


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I see what you did there.
> 
> Perhaps they also restore balance when playing Marilyn Manson…IS OVER…


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021].


----------



## SHIMACM

I have this Tung-Sol 6f8g with square mica.

It has an awesome sound.

How does it compare to Tung-Sol 6f8g bgrp (round or oval mica)?

I've read mixed reviews from people saying it sounds the same, and others saying BGRP sounds better.

Has anyone compared the two?


----------



## musicman59 (Jun 3, 2022)

Never seen one with square mica until now.


----------



## SHIMACM

musicman59 said:


> Never seen one with square mica until now.



All three valves I have are square mica and ladder boards.


----------



## TLO

SHIMACM said:


> All three valves I have are square mica and ladder boards.


Shape of mica doesn't have effect on the sound, it is basically the construction shape of the plate (anode) that makes the sonic character of a tube. For clarification, BGRP means black glass round plates, it has nothing to do with the shape of the mica. Micas are not plates (anode) in case you are confused. What you have there are called flat ladder or ridged plates.


----------



## SHIMACM

TLO said:


> Shape of mica doesn't have effect on the sound, it is basically the construction shape of the plate (anode) that makes the sonic character of a tube. For clarification, BGRP means black glass round plates, it has nothing to do with the shape of the mica. Micas are not plates (anode) in case you are confused. What you have there are called flat ladder or ridged plates.


thanks for the clarification. So, could anyone tell if there is a difference in the sound of the TS 6f8g Stair Boards and the TS 6f8g Round Boards?


----------



## TLO

SHIMACM said:


> thanks for the clarification. So, could anyone tell if there is a difference in the sound of the TS 6f8g Stair Boards and the TS 6f8g Round Boards?


🛹🏂🏄‍♂️ sorry, cannot resist


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> thanks for the clarification. So, could anyone tell if there is a difference in the sound of the TS 6f8g Stair* Boards *and the TS 6f8g Round *Boards*?


Plates.  Not boards, plates.  Please....those of us with tube OCD are getting carpal tunnel from gripping our chairs so tightly.  🤣🤣


----------



## SHIMACM

_vixi...I think there was a translation problem. hahahaha. but anyway the question remains. haha._


----------



## justanut

So.. anyone has the Linlai Elites to compare against the NOS stable?


----------



## motberg

justanut said:


> So.. anyone has the Linlai Elites to compare against the NOS stable?


I currently have E-6SN7 and E-6SL7 in my Willsenton R8, (using EL34's). I find the Linlai very quiet and fairly linear so far, just a little of tube magic holography sprinkled in these. The lack of background noise was surprising and may be a significant factor when comparing against NOS. I still have a few days to break in the 6SN7's. I have already tried some NOS Sylvania, Brimar, GE, some Russian stuff, etc.. but I think my final selection will either be the E-6SN7 or new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (which seem a little more forgiving on the top end.)


----------



## justanut

motberg said:


> I currently have E-6SN7 and E-6SL7 in my Willsenton R8, (using EL34's). I find the Linlai very quiet and fairly linear so far, just a little of tube magic holography sprinkled in these. The lack of background noise was surprising and may be a significant factor when comparing against NOS. I still have a few days to break in the 6SN7's. I have already tried some NOS Sylvania, Brimar, GE, some Russian stuff, etc.. but I think my final selection will either be the E-6SN7 or new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (which seem a little more forgiving on the top end.)


Hmm.. do share more btw the Linlai and Tung-Sol when you've burned in. I'm wondering if it's an worthwhile upgrade for my HA-300ii


----------



## lupoal (Jun 6, 2022)

Hi,

I've just received this two 6SN7 brand Rad Tel (?)... is there anybody that has an idea about possible manufacturer? year 1962 week 22?


----------



## triod750

My guess is that Rad Tel stands for Radio and Television and they were sourcing their tubes from xxxxyyyy  . Haven't got a clue as to who xxxxyyyy really were.
Enjoy!


----------



## Ranger Ron

lupoal said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just received this two 6SN7 brand Rad Tel (?)... is there anybody that has an idea about possible manufacturer? year 1962 week 22?


Tung Sol


----------



## KonanAtlante

more tubes for the collection
i got these rare tung sol vt-99 navy
38768F


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I just got my US Army Signal Corps NOS today!


----------



## TLO

Have just rolled a pair of Philips E80CC for a few days, thought they sound really good as 6SN7 in my amp until I put in the ECC31 and wow...ECC31 wins hands down, no question about it. I am just wondering...has anyone compared ECC31 to EF80, EF86 or L63? Please share your thoughts if you do, thanks!!!


----------



## triod750

This tells the truth about the tubes in your circuit with the output tubes you are using but not about the tubes in themselves. Apparently the ECC31 has good synergy with the rest of what you are using. Rolling is interesting and sometimes surprising. At other times disappointing.


----------



## TLO

triod750 said:


> This tells the truth about the tubes in your circuit with the output tubes you are using but not about the tubes in themselves. Apparently the ECC31 has good synergy with the rest of what you are using. Rolling is interesting and sometimes surprising. At other times disappointing.


Precisely, that's why I mentioned in my amp...


----------



## triod750

TLO said:


> Precisely, that's why I mentioned in my amp...


I didn't expect you to mean anything else. Forgot to add a proper smiley.


----------



## TLO (Jun 14, 2022)

Whoa... this Tungsram 6N7GT (Haltron labeled) is not bad at all, around USD80 for 4 pairs..
I believe this is made in Hungary. Now, before you jump on this...initial impression, it sounds quite upfront, fast and slightly aggressive, so if you already have a bright system, this is not for you.


----------



## jonathan c

Roll time - for use in LTA MZ3:


----------



## Thaddy

@jonathan c are those Raytheon-labeled RCA 5692's?  I've got a pair of 5691's (6SL7's) with matching 1962 date codes on the way right now, very excited to listen to them.

edit:  On second look maybe not, I don't think I see the extra mica support rods.


----------



## jonathan c

Thaddy said:


> @jonathan c are those Raytheon-labeled RCA 5692's?  I've got a pair of 5691's (6SL7's) with matching 1962 date codes on the way right now, very excited to listen to them.
> 
> edit:  On second look maybe not, I don't think I see the extra mica support rods.


They are Raytheon 6SN7WGT with D-getter. I have been using CBS / Hytron / Zalytron 5692 brown bases. The tubes, they are a-rollin’…


----------



## Isaacc7

In praise of the humble Sylvania 6sn7...

As we all pursue audio nirvana via rare and obscure tubes I would like to voice my appreciation of the Sylvania 6sn7. And no, you don't have to get the rare and crazily priced early JAN with metal base or the fabled "Bad Boy" versions. Even the regular Sylvania 6sn7 can be great in the right combo. They are readily available and are very reasonably priced even compared to modern tubes let alone exotic European tubes. I was reminded of their excellence tonight. I had been struggling with finding an input tube to make some RCA 6k6gt tubes sing. Raytheon T plate 6f8g, NU round plate 6f8g, BL63, Tungsol 6c8g, none of them sounded right. Maybe the 6k6gt just weren't very good? Popped in the humble Sylvania angled plate 6sn7 (in the form of a 7n7) and wow!





These things are pretty cheap, especially the 7n7 version, but don't let that fool you. They could be a great combo with certain tubes. I've also had good luck with the older, taller version with the parallel "T" plates



These tend to be a little more expensive but still reasonable. All of the early Sylvania 6sn7 had a similar plate structure. It can be argued if there were different materials, etc. but clearly Sylvania figured out a good structure early on. I recommend having some of these in your stash, you might be surprised!


----------



## UntilThen

12th Jan 2017, I took my then new Elise to a local meet and it had Raytheon 7N7 with Tung Sol 5998.


----------



## Isaacc7

UntilThen said:


> 12th Jan 2017, I took my then new Elise to a local meet and it had Raytheon 7N7 with Tung Sol 5998.


Apparently, with the rare NU round plate exception, all loctal US tubes were actually Sylvania made regardless of the branding. I was super psyched to have a bunch of RCA grey glass 14c5 thinking I had some budget RCA 6v6. Luckily I like how Sylvania 6v6 sounds lol. I have just started to look into the British loctals, not sure if they were also made by a single company though I am certain Sylvania wasn't involved. Anyway, the 7n7 is great in general, love to see people using them!


----------



## jbua5150

Any input if these are actually Millard made?


----------



## RobertSM

jbua5150 said:


> Any input if these are actually Millard made?



I don't think Mullard ever made a 6SN7.

Any others know for sure?


----------



## Renexx (Jun 18, 2022)

jbua5150 said:


> Any input if these are actually Millard made?


Looks like you got a nice pair of relabeled Reflektor 6h8c russian made tubes 😁
Hope you didn't pay alot for those beauties.


----------



## jbua5150

Renexx said:


> Looks like you got a nice pair of relabeled Reflektor 6h8c russian made tubes 😁
> Hope you didn't pay alot for those beauties.


I didn’t purchase them. 
I TRY to ask before I make mistakes like this!!


----------



## RobertSM

lupoal said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just received this two 6SN7 brand Rad Tel (?)... is there anybody that has an idea about possible manufacturer? year 1962 week 22?



Yes, Rad-Tel purchased bulk surplus from the major manufacturers and relabeled.

Nothing wrong with that by the way.

I have an outstanding pair of Rad-Tel labeled 6DE7's for my Woo Audio WA6-SE gen 1 that are Tung-Sols. One of the best driver tubes in that specific amp.


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> Looks like you got a nice pair of relabeled Reflektor 6h8c russian made tubes 😁
> Hope you didn't pay alot for those beauties.


Yup.  The UFO getters are the dead giveaway that they're Russian.


----------



## Renexx

jbua5150 said:


> I didn’t purchase them.
> I TRY to ask before I make mistakes like this!!


Not necessarily a bad tube. I think they are better than the new production Psvane tubes for the Euphoria.
Grab them for cheap and it's a good NOS tube to start the rabbit hole.


----------



## rawheadjim

jonathan c said:


> Roll time - for use in LTA MZ3:


I just got a pair of Raytheon's from the same guy!  He's my favorite tube seller on ebay, and his prices are very reasonable for some fantastic vintage tubes.  I've only listened to a couple of records so far, but my Raytheon 6SN7's are definitely some of the best I've tried so far.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Taking these Sylvania 6F8G around the block a few times this evening.  Not sure why I waited so long to give them a fair shake, they sound excellent. They seem to tame my high end a little which is nice for long listening sessions.  Anyone else a fan of this tube?


----------



## UntilThen

Ranger Ron said:


> Taking these Sylvania 6F8G around the block a few times this evening. Not sure why I waited so long to give them a fair shake, they sound excellent. They seem to tame my high end a little which is nice for long listening sessions. Anyone else a fan of this tube?



Yup big fan here but mine is the Tung Sol 6F8G black glass round plates with your same adapters made in Poland.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Ranger Ron said:


> Taking these Sylvania 6F8G around the block a few times this evening.  Not sure why I waited so long to give them a fair shake, they sound excellent. They seem to tame my high end a little which is nice for long listening sessions.  Anyone else a fan of this tube?


Tung Sol here as well.  Woo Audio adapters.


----------



## lupoal (Jun 19, 2022)

@RobertSM 

perfect, paid 39 euro for couple of them… not bad 

now I have opportunity to buy (all NOS)
- RCA VT231 gray glass (dark gray, almost black.. at least in the picture)
- CNU US NAVY 6SN7 gray glass
- Sicte 6SN7GT
- Brimar 6SN7GT ( not fake… those with round plates)

as I not swimming in the money… buying only two couple… which one should I choose ?


----------



## RobertSM (Jun 19, 2022)

lupoal said:


> @RobertSM
> 
> perfect, paid 39 euro for couple of them… not bad
> 
> ...



Well of course this all depends on so many other factors in your setup/system.

That said, I do love the Brimar 6SN7. I run a similar Brimar CV1988 in my Eddie Current  tube phono pre-amp. In this specific circuit the Brimar CV1988 is used as a cathode follower after the the signal runs through a pair of 6SL7's.

Again, as I've learned there are no absolutes with tubes. Just so many factors to consider in one's system.

Good luck.


----------



## Renexx (Jun 19, 2022)

lupoal said:


> @RobertSM
> 
> perfect, paid 39 euro for couple of them… not bad
> 
> ...


Brimar and RCA are wonderful resolving ,warm and lush  with great staging.
NU is a little bit behind in resolution.
I guess sicte is an  italian relabel for  fivre 6sn7gt, these are far behind the other 3.


----------



## Ranger Ron

lupoal said:


> @RobertSM
> 
> perfect, paid 39 euro for couple of them… not bad
> 
> ...


Brimar would be my first choice, NU gray glass a close second.


----------



## TLO (Jun 19, 2022)

Ranger Ron said:


> Brimar would be my first choice, NU gray glass a close second.


+1
IMO, in my setup...
1. Brimar CV1988
2. NU 6SN7GT - have only tried BG not gray glass
3. RCA VT231 - try to get the one with the old logo (meatball), early 40s.

Cant comment on Sicte 6SN7GT, havent tried them.


----------



## HTSkywalker

rawheadjim said:


> I just got a pair of Raytheon's from the same guy!  He's my favorite tube seller on ebay, and his prices are very reasonable for some fantastic vintage tubes.  I've only listened to a couple of records so far, but my Raytheon 6SN7's are definitely some of the best I've tried so far.


Raytheons are great sounding


----------



## lupoal

really thank you all very much for valuable suggestions … I will go for Brimar and RCA (I try for extra discount to add CNU too… but I’m afraid won’t be possible) mainly for greater ease of future sale should I not like some of them


----------



## TLO

lupoal said:


> really thank you all very much for valuable suggestions … I will go for Brimar and RCA (I try for extra discount to add CNU too… but I’m afraid won’t be possible) mainly for greater ease of future sale should I not like some of them


For best value with great SQ, I would recommend the followings as I enjoy them the most in my setup...1 X 6SL7 -> 2 X 6SN7 -> 2 X 300B -> 2 X 838/805...

not in order
1. Mullard ECC31
2. Mullard ECC33 - yeah, expensive but sound amazing
3. Brimar CV1988
3. TS 6C8G (BGRP) - 6SN7 & 6F8G way overpriced, I would rather get British or Holland tubes
4. SYL 6SN7W
5. CBS 5692
6. NU 6SN7GT
7. Philips E80CC
8. Philips E182CC
9. Philips ECC40
10. RT 6CG7 (US made black plate)
These have more stand out character...


----------



## Renexx (Jun 20, 2022)

I got a new pair of Sylvania staggered plates from Brent Jesse.

 Can somebody tell what those date codes mean ?
Does the silvering on top mean they have been used ?


----------



## Ranger Ron

Renexx said:


> I got a new pair of Sylvania staggered plates from Brent Jesse.
> 
> Can somebody tell what those date codes mean ?
> Does the silvering on top mean they have been used ?


Yes, a sure sign of use. How much is hard to say. I had a brand new pair of RCA 6SN7GT that developed that after about 20 hours of use.


----------



## TLO

Renexx said:


> I got a new pair of Sylvania staggered plates from Brent Jesse.
> 
> Can somebody tell what those date codes mean ?
> Does the silvering on top mean they have been used ?


312 = SYL
126 = 1951 26th week


----------



## Renexx

TLO said:


> 312 = SYL
> 126 = 1951 26th week


Thanks, how about the etched glass codes. B1H and L0H?



Ranger Ron said:


> Yes, a sure sign of use. How much is hard to say. I had a brand new pair of RCA 6SN7GT that developed that after about 20 hours of use.


None of my other 6sn7 tubes have it. Not even after usage.


----------



## TLO

Renexx said:


> Thanks, how about the etched glass codes. B1H and L0H?


Earlier SYL 6SN7 has the date etched on the glass...a letter and a number, e.g. A3 = Jan 1943. Not sure about etched code on glass after they introduced the new numeric date code printed on the base in later production.


----------



## lupoal

... so the dealer told he can't perform very serious test on tubes because he only have an entry level tester, BK Dynajet 606 (user manual), with the following results:
- Brimar 105/105 and 105/105
- CNU 110/110 and 110/110 (yes, at the and I switched to CNU )

now, a friend of mine, hifi manufacturer using tubes since the beginning, told me it seems quite strange (his words:"I've never seen a tube with exactly the same values") to have so precise values... what your feeling about that? 

(he also told me: "those tester are good for nothing, just to detect if a tube is completely dead or not... but about NOS tube there are also other things to keep in mind, for example that materials inside the tube after many years are not always like at production date... you should use a curve tracer" )


----------



## Ranger Ron

lupoal said:


> ... so the dealer told he can't perform very serious test on tubes because he only have an entry level tester, BK Dynajet 606 (user manual), with the following results:
> - Brimar 105/105 and 105/105
> - CNU 110/110 and 110/110 (yes, at the and I switched to CNU )
> 
> ...


It all depends how OCD you want to be about it. I’ve used tubes with all sorts of values to good effect. It comes down to noise and microphonics for me. Of course the tube has to be relatively ‘strong’ which is very subjective but you have to base it off of something and I think those old tube testers do a fine job weeding through the muck of old tubes.


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 21, 2022)

Also, strict adherence to parameters may be critical for military applications. Many (most?) tubes / valves were designed without audio use as a primary (for us, sole) consideration 🤷🏻‍♂️.


----------



## lupoal (Jun 22, 2022)

thank you


----------



## tamtrum

If anyone is looking for a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GT 3 hole bad boys (date code 152) I've put up a listing on classifieds!


----------



## g0ldl10n

Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this. 

First, I am no expert in regards to tubes, but do enjoying rolling them. I was looking for some Tall Bottle 7n7 tubes when I came across this Philco and did some research on it. From what I have found, it is said that Philco did not manufacture any of its own tubes, and were just rebrands mainly of Sylvania. However, on this tube we have EIA code of 260, and when looking this up to see who actually manufactured it, this is actually Philco's EIA number.

So the question is, was Philco able to place their own EIA number on these tubes even though they were being manufactured by Sylvania, or was this 7n7 actually manufactured by Philco?


----------



## Slade01

g0ldl10n said:


> Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this.
> 
> First, I am no expert in regards to tubes, but do enjoying rolling them. I was looking for some Tall Bottle 7n7 tubes when I came across this Philco and did some research on it. From what I have found, it is said that Philco did not manufacture any of its own tubes, and were just rebrands mainly of Sylvania. However, on this tube we have EIA code of 260, and when looking this up to see who actually manufactured it, this is actually Philco's EIA number.
> 
> So the question is, was Philco able to place their own EIA number on these tubes even though they were being manufactured by Sylvania, or was this 7n7 actually manufactured by Philco?



Aside from Sylvania, the only other major manufacturer for 7N7 was National Union.  They operated a plant out of Lansdale (PA), and this was later acquired by Philco, based on my own research into it.  Maybe others can chime in, but there is a possibility that Philco, at least for some brief period was able to create the NU based 7N7s before or while supplementing demand with rebranded Sylvanias.


----------



## Isaacc7

Slade01 said:


> Aside from Sylvania, the only other major manufacturer for 7N7 was National Union.  They operated a plant out of Lansdale (PA), and this was later acquired by Philco, based on my own research into it.  Maybe others can chime in, but there is a possibility that Philco, at least for some brief period was able to create the NU based 7N7s before or while supplementing demand with rebranded Sylvanias.


That Philco looks like a Sylvania. Pretty sure the NU made 7n7 tubes have round plates. I’m also pretty sure that all US loctals other than the round plate NU 7n7 were made by Sylvania. Not sure if multiple companies in the UK made them or if they were made by a single company.


----------



## jbua5150 (Jun 27, 2022)

Hey everyone!
Just landed to me,
ART 6F8G.
Look like Tung Sol BGRP to me 
Does anyone have info about this or what ART is?  
Thanks


----------



## Isaacc7

jbua5150 said:


> Hey everyone!
> Just landed to me,
> ART 6F8G.
> Look like Tung Sol BGRP to me
> ...


So you're the one that outbid me! Lol. It's ok, I reminded myself that I already have the same tube in 12sn7 and I shouldn't spend any more money Congrats!


----------



## jbua5150

Isaacc7 said:


> So you're the one that outbid me! Lol. It's ok, I reminded myself that I already have the same tube in 12sn7 and I shouldn't spend any more money Congrats!


This is my first “6SN7” BGRP.  
I have a 6C8G pair and a 6SL7 pair.
I didn’t think I’d win them as I figured they’d go for much more.  .


----------



## bcowen (Jun 30, 2022)

g0ldl10n said:


> Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this.
> 
> First, I am no expert in regards to tubes, but do enjoying rolling them. I was looking for some Tall Bottle 7n7 tubes when I came across this Philco and did some research on it. From what I have found, it is said that Philco did not manufacture any of its own tubes, and were just rebrands mainly of Sylvania. However, on this tube we have EIA code of 260, and when looking this up to see who actually manufactured it, this is actually Philco's EIA number.
> 
> So the question is, was Philco able to place their own EIA number on these tubes even though they were being manufactured by Sylvania, or was this 7n7 actually manufactured by Philco?


That's a Sylvania.  Philco never manufactured tubes, and as others have already noted all 7N7's were made either by Sylvania or National Union.  That particular tube you've pictured is one of the best sounding Sylvanias to my ears.


----------



## Isaacc7

Not a 6sn7, but in keeping with the dual triode input tube theme I just got some ecc31 in. I always like good boxes. These didn’t have the cool blue and orange Mullard boxes but still are interesting IMO.


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Not a 6sn7, but in keeping with the dual triode input tube theme I just got some ecc31 in. I always like good boxes. These didn’t have the cool blue and orange Mullard boxes but still are interesting IMO.


Q for thought 🤣:  if you paid _more than_ the full List Price, is the guarantee inapplicable?


----------



## reg66

ColSaulTigh said:


> I can ask him if you're interested.  These are proper 1578's with the mouse ears and rectangle bottom plate.  Should be around $400/NOS pair.


Hi, are these still available?


----------



## ARCXENOS

Regarding Mullard CV181s, can anyone experienced tell me if a designation of YK KB/DA can be *possibly *authentic? A pair of apparently NOS cv181 popped up on my local marketplace, but I am not very sure if that fits the bill.

Any thoughts would be appreciated


----------



## g0ldl10n

g0ldl10n said:


> Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this.
> 
> First, I am no expert in regards to tubes, but do enjoying rolling them. I was looking for some Tall Bottle 7n7 tubes when I came across this Philco and did some research on it. From what I have found, it is said that Philco did not manufacture any of its own tubes, and were just rebrands mainly of Sylvania. However, on this tube we have EIA code of 260, and when looking this up to see who actually manufactured it, this is actually Philco's EIA number.
> 
> So the question is, was Philco able to place their own EIA number on these tubes even though they were being manufactured by Sylvania, or was this 7n7 actually manufactured by Philco?


So to add to this, I came across at 1944 Sylvania JAN-7N7 and decided to pick it up - the internals looks very similar to the 'Philco/Sylvania' tall bottle in the middle, but with slight variations - one of the best sounding 7n7/6sn7 tubes I personally have ever heard. It's far right. Would recommend this tube if you ever come across one. The bottle is slightly shorted than the 'tall bottle', and slightly taller than the small bottles (included this in picture for comparison). 
.


----------



## triod750

I suppose you have a 6SN7W there, with loctal socket. I have 'the same' here, from a chance tube lot. It looks and sounds the same as my Sylvania 6SN7W (which has 6SN7A on top of the glass).  My 7N7 has acceptance date 9-27-43 and was sealed when I received it.


----------



## Isaacc7

g0ldl10n said:


> So to add to this, I came across at 1944 Sylvania JAN-7N7 and decided to pick it up - the internals looks very similar to the 'Philco/Sylvania' tall bottle in the middle, but with slight variations - one of the best sounding 7n7/6sn7 tubes I personally have ever heard. It's far right. Would recommend this tube if you ever come across one. The bottle is slightly shorted than the 'tall bottle', and slightly taller than the small bottles (included this in picture for comparison).
> .


Does it have them extra copper support rod like the 6sn7w has?


----------



## g0ldl10n

triod750 said:


> I suppose you have a 6SN7W there, with loctal socket. I have 'the same' here, from a chance tube lot. It looks and sounds the same as my Sylvania 6SN7W (which has 6SN7A on top of the glass).  My 7N7 has acceptance date 9-27-43 and was sealed when I received it.


Nice, as was mine! 


Isaacc7 said:


> Does it have them extra copper support rod like the 6sn7w has?


No, doesn't appear it does - however, the bottom is a bit wider (sorry, not sure what the technical name for that is, but will point it out in the comparison picture), coming much closer to the edge of the glass than the Philco/Sylvania tall bottle, and is less oval and more of a rectangle with rounded sides.


----------



## triod750

Isaacc7 said:


> Does it have them extra copper support rod like the 6sn7w has?


No, that is the only difference I can see but I can't hear it  . I should have thought of it though. Rookie mistake.
Apparently the copper is overkill .


----------



## g0ldl10n

triod750 said:


> No, that is the only difference I can see but I can't hear it  . I should have thought of it though. Rookie mistake.
> Apparently the copper is overkill .


I just looked up the 6sn7w and it does look exactly the same internally - still not sure if I am seeing the extra copper support rod in this 6sn7w tube. Either way, the tall bottle 1944 7n7 JAN is my favorite tube to date - will be a bit sad when it stops working.


----------



## bcowen

g0ldl10n said:


> I just looked up the 6sn7w and it does look exactly the same internally - still not sure if I am seeing the extra copper support rod in this 6sn7w tube. Either way, the tall bottle 1944 7n7 JAN is my favorite tube to date - will be a bit sad when it stops working.


They're still available, just pick a label you like (they're all Sylvanias).


----------



## g0ldl10n

Isaacc7 said:


> Not a 6sn7, but in keeping with the dual triode input tube theme I just got some ecc31 in. I always like good boxes. These didn’t have the cool blue and orange Mullard boxes but still are interesting IMO.


Guess they really don't make things like they used to... 3 month guarantee, meanwhile, ~70 years later.. lol


----------



## Mr Trev

g0ldl10n said:


> Guess they really don't make things like they used to... 3 month guarantee, meanwhile, ~70 years later.. lol


Adjusted for inflation, 3 mo. works out to 70 yrs. in modern times <cue Metallica's "Sad, but True">


----------



## g0ldl10n

g0ldl10n said:


> So to add to this, I came across at 1944 Sylvania JAN-7N7 and decided to pick it up - the internals looks very similar to the 'Philco/Sylvania' tall bottle in the middle, but with slight variations - one of the best sounding 7n7/6sn7 tubes I personally have ever heard. It's far right. Would recommend this tube if you ever come across one. The bottle is slightly shorted than the 'tall bottle', and slightly taller than the small bottles (included this in picture for comparison).
> .


Forgot to include this 1953 Sylvania JAN-CHS-7n7 small bottle tube - sounds fantastic as well. Would recommend either of the Sylvania JAN 7n7s - both are dead quiet in the Darkvoice, which definitely has a lot of microphonics with certain 7n7/6sn7 tubes.


----------



## Isaacc7

g0ldl10n said:


> So to add to this, I came across at 1944 Sylvania JAN-7N7 and decided to pick it up - the internals looks very similar to the 'Philco/Sylvania' tall bottle in the middle, but with slight variations - one of the best sounding 7n7/6sn7 tubes I personally have ever heard. It's far right. Would recommend this tube if you ever come across one. The bottle is slightly shorted than the 'tall bottle', and slightly taller than the small bottles (included this in picture for comparison).
> .


I have a pair of 14n7 in that size bottle that I like quite a bit. Since they do have the copper support rod I have assumed they were essentially the same as the metal 6sn7w. Don’t have any to compare to though.


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 4, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I have a pair of 14n7 in that size bottle that I like quite a bit. Since they do have the copper support rod I have assumed they were essentially the same as the metal 6sn7w. Don’t have any to compare to though.


I don't have any 6sn7w tubes either - not sure if they sound the same or not - I looked them up and the insides look identical - and wow, those are expensive, lol .. maybe will have to save up to grab one someday.

Edit: Paid $33 for the tall bottle JAN 7n7, and $26 for the short bottle JAN 7n7.


----------



## TLO

ARCXENOS said:


> Regarding Mullard CV181s, can anyone experienced tell me if a designation of YK KB/DA can be *possibly *authentic? A pair of apparently NOS cv181 popped up on my local marketplace, but I am not very sure if that fits the bill.
> 
> Any thoughts would be appreciated


Pic?


----------



## TLO

g0ldl10n said:


> I don't have any 6sn7w tubes either - not sure if they sound the same or not - I looked them up and the insides look identical - and wow, those are expensive, lol .. maybe will have to save up to grab one someday.
> 
> Edit: Paid $33 for the tall bottle JAN 7n7, and $26 for the short bottle JAN 7n7.


When u r getting the 6sn7w, take note that it is not brown base but either black or metal base. Brown base 6sn7wgt has the same extra support post as well as the 4 spokes from the top. It has 3 holes on plate compared to 2 holes on the 6sn7w, and yes...6sn7w sounds very much better.


----------



## g0ldl10n

TLO said:


> When u r getting the 6sn7w, take note that it is not brown base but either black or metal base. Brown base 6sn7wgt has the same extra support post as well as the 4 spokes from the top. It has 3 holes on plate compared to 2 holes on the 6sn7w, and yes...6sn7w sounds very much better.


Thanks for the info, will definitely keep that in mind.


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 4, 2022)

Hey, was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about this tube. All markings besides what you can see on the getter flash are gone unfortunately, and I made this purchase many years ago and just found it again - sounds pretty good actually. I know this is a 'Coinbase' but the ones I am coming across online the internals come much close to the top of the glass, whereas here there is about 1/2 space between, as you can see in the pictures. Also, the ones I am coming across, seem to have O getter at the top, instead of on the side.


----------



## Ranger Ron

g0ldl10n said:


> Hey, was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about this tube. All markings besides what you can see on the getter flash are gone unfortunately, and I made this purchase many years ago and just found it again - sounds pretty good actually. I know this is a 'Coinbase' but the ones I am coming across online the internals come much close to the top of the glass, whereas here there is about 1/2 space between, as you can see in the pictures. Also, the ones I am coming across, seem to have O getter at the top, instead of on the side.


General Electric


----------



## triod750

The dots on the glass says GE but did they make side getter tubes?


----------



## g0ldl10n

triod750 said:


> The dots on the glass says GE but did they make side getter tubes?


Yes, found them now, here is a current picture from ebay - it goes great with the Tung-Sol 7236.


----------



## ARCXENOS

TLO said:


> Pic?






Not my picture of course


----------



## Isaacc7

I finally got a chance to listen to the ecc31 in my amp. I got really... weird results. So far I have tried them with 6f6 and 807 tubes. In both cases there was a really annoying glare/presence in the lower treble. And I can't tell if that is overshadowing the midrange or if there is actually a midrange suckout but voices are noticeably recessed and more difficult to understand. I was hoping these would essentially be a higher gain bl63. Looking at the specs I can see they differ quite a bit in addition to the gain. I can see the differences but I don't know what they mean lol. 

Anyway, I'll have to do some more experimenting. I wonder if changing the input tube can change the input Impedance of the amp. I've been using a passive preamp, wonder if it is having trouble with a more difficult load.


----------



## TLO (Jul 5, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Not my picture of course


I was expecting pics of the whole tube...front, top, etc...so people can see and confirm for you. Anyway, DA is the code for Blackburn. YK = Oct 1968


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> I finally got a chance to listen to the ecc31 in my amp. I got really... weird results. So far I have tried them with 6f6 and 807 tubes. In both cases there was a really annoying glare/presence in the lower treble. And I can't tell if that is overshadowing the midrange or if there is actually a midrange suckout but voices are noticeably recessed and more difficult to understand. I was hoping these would essentially be a higher gain bl63. Looking at the specs I can see they differ quite a bit in addition to the gain. I can see the differences but I don't know what they mean lol.
> 
> Anyway, I'll have to do some more experimenting. I wonder if changing the input tube can change the input Impedance of the amp. I've been using a passive preamp, wonder if it is having trouble with a more difficult load.


Burn in? tube matching? setup? Anyway, they are one of my favorites, work very well in my 300B SET setup.





In fact, I was testing them with TFK EC88 on the 6SL7 socket today. Sounds great.
One thing really great about this amp is there is a knob for adjusting NFB on the fly. Amazing feature for tube rolling.


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> I was expecting pics of the whole tube...front, top, etc...so people can see and confirm for you. Anyway, DA is the code for Blackburn. YK = Oct 1968


ARCXENOS, as TLO says, give us more pics as there are Rusky produced ones out there. But so far that one looks good.


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> I was expecting pics of the whole tube...front, top, etc...so people can see and confirm for you. Anyway, DA is the code for Blackburn. YK = Oct 1968


….👨‍⚖️ … ‘the tube, the whole tube, and nothing but the tube’…


----------



## JTbbb

ARCXENOS said:


> Not my picture of course


If you don’t have access to more pics, then here are some pics to compare to. Note brown base and crinkley top!


----------



## ARCXENOS

JTbbb said:


> If you don’t have access to more pics, then here are some pics to compare to. Note brown base and crinkley top!



Thank you for these reference pictures, I will definitely ask for more pictures from the seller before committing for sure.


----------



## g0ldl10n

Hey, was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for a very warm 6sn7 tube, budget friendly if possible.


----------



## JTbbb

g0ldl10n said:


> Hey, was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for a very warm 6sn7 tube, budget friendly if possible.


CBS/RCA 5692’s are a warm tube. Though the RCA Red base can be expensive.


----------



## g0ldl10n

JTbbb said:


> CBS/RCA 5692’s are a warm tube. Though the RCA Red base can be expensive.


Do you know if the JAN versions have the same characteristics?


----------



## JTbbb

g0ldl10n said:


> Do you know if the JAN versions have the same characteristics?


There is little if no difference between any of them. To my ears of course!


----------



## TLO (Jul 5, 2022)

TLO said:


> Burn in? tube matching? setup? Anyway, they are one of my favorites, work very well in my 300B SET setup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Update:
This is my very first (2) pair of TFK tubes, never have the chance to listen to their house sound until now as they have always been very expensive for a 9 pin miniature tube as in ECC83 and ECC88. Anyway, found out that I could roll a pair of EC88 / E88C (note: NOT ECC88/E88CC) in the high mu 6SL7 position. Managed to buy 4 pieces new and sealed in original box for EUR80, great deal!!! YES, it has that famous diamond 

After about 20 hours, my impression is they have very high clarity in high and mid but lack of weight in the low, not lack of bass but just dont have enough weight for my liking. Soundstage and depth are great but lack of synergy in the upp bass in my setup. Due to that, I find that it sounds a bit harsh on some tracks at times.

This evening something amazing happened. As I have been trying out with different tube matching...ECC31, ECC33, ECC34, NU 6SN7, SYL 6SN7W, etc...some are better than the other but none really stand out until I remembered that I have a pair of Brimar ECC804, I have always found it difficult to like them as they sound a bit boomy to me. Wow!!! They are a great match from heaven!!! First, harshness is gone, huge soundstage with great depth, very balanced overall with great synergy in upp bass. I have to say I am really shocked to hear such amazing sound from 4 small tubes. A fruitful discovery!!! Next, going to try Mullard and Philips EC88/ E88C.


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> I was expecting pics of the whole tube...front, top, etc...so people can see and confirm for you. Anyway, DA is the code for Blackburn. YK = Oct 1968


Reply#2:  YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TUBE !!


----------



## TLO

jonathan c said:


> Reply#2:  YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TUBE !!


----------



## whirlwind

g0ldl10n said:


> Hey, was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for a very warm 6sn7 tube, budget friendly if possible.


Any RCA 6SN7 are warm sounding tubes


----------



## g0ldl10n

Isaacc7 said:


> That Philco looks like a Sylvania. Pretty sure the NU made 7n7 tubes have round plates. I’m also pretty sure that all US loctals other than the round plate NU 7n7 were made by Sylvania. Not sure if multiple companies in the UK made them or if they were made by a single company.


Still curious as to why Philco's EIA number is on this tube if Sylvania manufactured it - is the EIA number not always accurate to who the actual manufacturer was, do you or anyone know?


----------



## TLO

g0ldl10n said:


> Still curious as to why Philco's EIA number is on this tube if Sylvania manufactured it - is the EIA number not always accurate to who the actual manufacturer was, do you or anyone know?


Nah...I dont always trust the printing 100% to verify the actual manufacturer. In those days, suppliers or manufacturers have the practice of buying tubes from others or vice versa to fulfill the orders they have committed.


----------



## bcowen

g0ldl10n said:


> Still curious as to why Philco's EIA number is on this tube if Sylvania manufactured it - is the EIA number not always accurate to who the actual manufacturer was, do you or anyone know?


You'll see lots of GE EIA's on GE labeled tubes that were made by someone else.  It seems that the EIA number was matched to the brand rather than the manufacturer in many cases.


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> Update:
> This is my very first (2) pair of TFK tubes, never have the chance to listen to their house sound until now as they have always been very expensive for a 9 pin miniature tube as in ECC83 and ECC88. Anyway, found out that I could roll a pair of EC88 / E88C (note: NOT ECC88/E88CC) in the high mu 6SL7 position. Managed to buy 4 pieces new and sealed in original box for EUR80, great deal!!! YES, it has that famous diamond
> 
> After about 20 hours, my impression is they have very high clarity in high and mid but lack of weight in the low, not lack of bass but just dont have enough weight for my liking. Soundstage and depth are great but lack of synergy in the upp bass in my setup. Due to that, I find that it sounds a bit harsh on some tracks at times.
> ...


☑️ Midnight in the garden of tubes…


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 7, 2022)

I am trying to figure out what I have here - it was advertised as a 1952 Sylvania 6SN7 GTA (marked as Viking Standard Brand) - It is definitely 6SN7 GTA with the mark on the top of the tube, but besides that I am unsure. The Early 1950s Sylvania GTAs I have and have seen, are round where the plates attach to (If someone could share the technical name for this, that would be great - I am obviously no expert but trying to learn - and the other ones I have are angled T plates), and this is rectangle with straight/parallel T plates. Also, I can't make out the getter shape due to the chrome on top, but the top section the plates go into is roughly the same shape as the bottom. Lastly, the plates have 3 holes in them which you can barely make out in the pictures. This supposed early 1950s Sylvania 6SN7 GTA is much different internally than ones I have, or have seen.

Can anyone shed any light on this. Unfortunately, I don't see any date code or even EIA code on the side anymore, or not one that I can make out.

This is what is round in all of my early 1950s Sylvania 6SN7 GTA tubes.




3 holes in these plates you can barely make out due to the chrome.



Straight/non-angled T-Plates.







It looks just like this tube on ebay, but again, mine shows as GTA and not GT.


----------



## Pondoro

So I have ordered a “birth year” RCA 6SN7. It is reputed to test well. 1957. It will be used in a Schiit Lyr, Saga 3, or Vali 2. It will drive one of two 1960-ish Magnavox tube amps. I’m also looking hard at semiconductor power amps, but I have yet to pull the trigger.

Does anyone else out there purposely search out birth year tubes?


----------



## TLO

g0ldl10n said:


> I am trying to figure out what I have here - it was advertised as a 1952 Sylvania 6SN7 GTA (marked as Viking Standard Brand) - It is definitely 6SN7 GTA with the mark on the top of the tube, but besides that I am unsure. The Early 1950s Sylvania GTAs I have and have seen, are round where the plates go into (If someone could share the technical name for this, that would be great - I am obviously no expert but trying to learn - and the other ones I have are angled T plates), and this is rectangle with straight/parallel T plates. Also, I can't make out the getter shape due to the chrome on top, but the top section the plates go into is roughly the same shape as the bottom. Lastly, the plates have 3 holes in them which you can barely make out in the pictures. This supposed early 1950s Sylvania 6SN7 GTA is much different internally than ones I have, or have seen.
> 
> Can anyone shed any light on this. Unfortunately, I don't see any date code or even EIA code on the side anymore, or not one that I can make out.
> 
> ...


First thing first, it is recommended you read the first few pages of this thread:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/
It will help you a lot in identifying tubes.

That part you mentioned is called mica. In general, there are two, top mica and bottom mica. Some very popular tubes have triple mica and they go for crazy prices. Anyway, that is a SYL 6SN7GTA, with top getter, opposite T-plate, low base and tall glass. During the SYL 6SN7GTA version, they made quite a number of variants. I guess they just used whatever were available. I have observed these 6SN7GTA made by SYL....

1. top getter, opposite T-plate, full base and short glass
2. top getter, opposite T-plate, low base and short glass
3. top getter, opposite T-plate, low base and tall glass
4. top getter, angled T-plate, full base and short glass
5. top getter, angled T-plate, low base and short glass

Could be more other than these. They sound OK, very clean and fast but a bit dry and have no tubey character. Closer to SS than tube.


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 7, 2022)

TLO said:


> First thing first, it is recommended you read the first few pages of this thread:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/
> It will help you a lot in identifying tubes.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the information .. ah, mica  - yes, I have read that - obviously there is so much information there it is so hard to keep everything straight, and that I have really only gotten into tube rolling with the DV since my recent Focal Elex purchase about 2 months ago.

Honestly, I am blown away how good they sound on a fairly "cheap costing" tube amp such as the DV - I have THX 789 AAA amp, both paired with Geshelli J2 DAC, and the THX is good, dont get me wrong, especially for some planars I have, but having the balanced inputs going into the THX amp, and the single ended RCA into the DV, and the sound the Elex put out from the DV is so much more "full" and pleasing .. whereas the THX balanced out can sound quite thin in comparison.

I can tell a new addiction is starting, and it is going to be terrible for my wallet.


----------



## TLO (Jul 7, 2022)

g0ldl10n said:


> Thank you for the information .. ah, mica  - yes, I have read that - obviously there is so much information there it is so hard to keep everything straight, and that I have really only gotten into tube rolling with the DV since my recent Focal Elex purchase about 2 months ago.
> 
> Honestly, I am blown away how good they sound on a fairly "cheap costing" tube amp such as the DV - I have THX 789 AAA amp, both paired with Geshelli J2 DAC, and the THX is good, dont get me wrong, especially for some planars I have, but having the balanced inputs going into the THX amp, and the single ended RCA into the DV, and the sound the Elex put out from the DV is so much more "full" and pleasing .. whereas the THX balanced out can sound quite thin in comparison.
> 
> I can tell a new addiction is starting, and it is going to be terrible for my wallet.


If you have read through various posts on tube rolling, it is very true that the best sounding 6SN7 is not a 6SN7...LOL
Save yourself some money...ignore all the popular 6SN7s that sell for crazy prices.
I would just recommend that you only get National Union 6SN7 (black or grey glass), SYL 6SN7W, CBS/RCA 5692, STC/Brimar CV1988, ignore the rest.
Then explore into other tubes with adapters...
ECC31, ECC32, ECC33, ECC34, E182CC, E80CC, ECC40, CV6, CV1101/EL32, 6F8G, 6C8G, L63, 6J5, etc...
WARNING: always check the datasheet and make sure your amp can take the extra heater current

Have fun exploring...

Edit: you dont need adapter for ECC32, ECC33 and ECC34


----------



## g0ldl10n

TLO said:


> If you have read through various posts on tube rolling, it is very true that the best sounding 6SN7 is not a 6SN7...LOL
> Save yourself some money...ignore all the popular 6SN7s that sell for crazy prices.
> I would just recommend that you only get National Union 6SN7 (black or grey glass), SYL 6SN7W, CBS/RCA 5692, STC/Brimar CV1988, ignore the rest.
> Then explore into other tubes with adapters...
> ...


Ah, interesting - I do have this 'Admiral' labeled 6sn7, with National Union's EIA number with black glass - I actually picked this up years ago, and it sounds great - not sure if this is what you are referring to or not.


----------



## TLO

g0ldl10n said:


> Ah, interesting - I do have this 'Admiral' labeled 6sn7, with National Union's EIA number with black glass - I actually picked this up years ago, and it sounds great - not sure if this is what you are referring to or not.


yes, that is a NU (247)


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> If you have read through various posts on tube rolling, it is very true that the best sounding 6SN7 is not a 6SN7...LOL
> Save yourself some money...ignore all the popular 6SN7s that sell for crazy prices.
> I would just recommend that you only get National Union 6SN7 (black or grey glass), SYL 6SN7W, CBS/RCA 5692, STC/Brimar CV1988, ignore the rest.
> Then explore into other tubes with adapters...
> ...


I think dismissing most 6sn7 is not very helpful advice… Plenty of good sounding Sylvania, KenRad, and RCA 6sn7 and not all of them are super expensive. Besides, some tubes are good in combination with some equipment and tube combos and some aren’t. I have been having trouble enjoying the ecc31 so far despite its reputation while a lowly angled plate Sylvania 6sn7 sounds quite good. 

Oh, and be aware that some tubes like the ecc32 have noticeably heavier demands on the power transformer. Just because it has the same pin out doesn’t mean your amplifier can definitely use it!


----------



## g0ldl10n

Anyone ever come across a 'Cunningham Tube' with EIA number of 922 which shows it was manufactured by 'Standard Television Tube Corp.' Noticed this manufacturer is not on the 6sn7 reference page, but the EIA number on the tube shows 922.





If so, how do they sound?


----------



## TLO (Jul 7, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I think dismissing most 6sn7 is not very helpful advice… Plenty of good sounding Sylvania, KenRad, and RCA 6sn7 and not all of them are super expensive. Besides, some tubes are good in combination with some equipment and tube combos and some aren’t. I have been having trouble enjoying the ecc31 so far despite its reputation while a lowly angled plate Sylvania 6sn7 sounds quite good.
> 
> Oh, and be aware that some tubes like the ecc32 have noticeably heavier demands on the power transformer. Just because it has the same pin out doesn’t mean your amplifier can definitely use it!


Well, certainly, system setup or tube matching is important. The question is whether you wanted to pay about USD200-250 or up, that is about the market price for most popular 6SN7 nowadays, not to mention TS 6SN7 is going for USD500 on average, for good sounding 6SN7 or explore other alternatives for less than USD100 a pair with amazing sound...and if you explore far enough, you will discover some tubes will only cost USD10 a piece and will eat most of the 6Sn7 for lunch.

Anyway, it all comes down to personal preferences and what kind of tube rolling route you wanted to take. What I learned is that most ppl will start selling off their 6SN7 collection after exploring other alternatives. There is a very good reason why.

As for the ECC31, it could be anything (bad tube, setup, tube matching, personal preference???) but dont take my word for it, search in Head-Fi and read other comments. I found out this tube from @gibosi 's old post and immediately love the sound greatly. It works very well in my 300B SET with the ECC35 on 6SL7 position, I have been using this as benchmark ever since.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Well, certainly, system setup or tube matching is important. The question is whether you wanted to pay about USD200-250 or up, that is about the market price for most popular 6SN7 nowadays, not to mention TS 6SN7 is going for USD500 on average, for good sounding 6SN7 or explore other alternatives for less than USD100 a pair with amazing sound...and if you explore far enough, you will discover some tubes will only cost USD10 a piece and will eat most of the 6Sn7 for lunch.
> 
> Anyway, it all comes down to personal preferences and what kind of tube rolling route you wanted to take. What I learned is that most ppl will start selling off their 6SN7 collection after exploring other alternatives. There is a very good reason why.
> 
> As for the ECC31, it could be anything (bad tube, setup, tube matching, personal preference???) but dont take my word for it, search in Head-Fi and read other comments. I found out this tube from @gibosi 's old post and immediately love the sound greatly. It works very well in my 300B SET with the ECC35 on 6SL7 position, I have been using this as benchmark ever since.


Yeah, I'm not going to spend the big bucks on the most sought after 6sn7, that's why I mentioned some of the other brands as well. The ecc32,33, etc. are right there in price these days. The ecc31 is still less I assume because most people will need an adapter. I'm sure I'll find a combo that works with the ecc31 but I have already found good sounding combos with far less expensive 6sn7. You can get good sound with reasonably priced 6sn7, that was my point.


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> Yeah, I'm not going to spend the big bucks on the most sought after 6sn7, that's why I mentioned some of the other brands as well. The ecc32,33, etc. are right there in price these days. The ecc31 is still less I assume because most people will need an adapter. I'm sure I'll find a combo that works with the ecc31 but I have already found good sounding combos with far less expensive 6sn7. You can get good sound with reasonably priced 6sn7, that was my point.


Yeah, I still dont have a pair of ECC32


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Yeah, I still dont have a pair of ECC32


I'm glad to have found cv1102/bl63 at good prices. Those are bound to be my most exotic 6v twin triode. I have written off ever owning ecc32. I've been lead to believe the ecc31 should be mostly the same though. 

As far as super expensive 6sn7 tubes go, the 12v versions are still available at reasonable prices if you are patient. I just got in an external power supply and adapter from @Deyan to allow me to use 12sn7 in my amp. Granted, this is next level tube craziness but I already have a variety of 12sn7 and variants including Tungsol BGRP, Bad Boys, and the like. In my experience with them in my preamp, those tubes live up to the hype and I'm excited to use them in my amplifier. I might also be able to use tubes like GU50 as well but I'm not sure those adapters will fit on the amp.


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> I'm glad to have found cv1102/bl63 at good prices. Those are bound to be my most exotic 6v twin triode. I have written off ever owning ecc32. I've been lead to believe the ecc31 should be mostly the same though.
> 
> As far as super expensive 6sn7 tubes go, the 12v versions are still available at reasonable prices if you are patient. I just got in an external power supply and adapter from @Deyan to allow me to use 12sn7 in my amp. Granted, this is next level tube craziness but I already have a variety of 12sn7 and variants including Tungsol BGRP, Bad Boys, and the like. In my experience with them in my preamp, those tubes live up to the hype and I'm excited to use them in my amplifier. I might also be able to use tubes like GU50 as well but I'm not sure those adapters will fit on the amp.


Dont forget ECC34. I have a pair and they sound amazing, just need to match them with the correct front end 6SL7 due to the low gain. So far, ECC83 and EC88 work very well but not ECC35. In fact, I was enjoying them with a pair of TFK EC88 for the past 2 days. Amazing sound after those TFK EC88 were burn in, noted that those TFK EC88 need more than 20 hours to really sound great.


----------



## TLO (Jul 8, 2022)

What happened when a tube roller discovered that his amp has enough space for not one, not two but three dual adapters after all? Did he go crazy? No, he celebrates his Christmas in July... 













Hmm...this is what I called fun


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 8, 2022)

TLO said:


> What happened when a tube roller discovered that his amp has enough space for not one, not two but three dual adapters after all? Did he go crazy? No, he celebrates his Christmas in July...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, it does look fun!

How did that sound? Quite curious how you found the dual 7193 for each 6sn7.


----------



## TLO

g0ldl10n said:


> Lol, it does look fun!
> 
> How did that sound?


I am not going to tell you how they sound but will tell you how many pieces I ended up buying at this dirt cheap price with such SQ...  
Mullard CV6 - 16 pieces
Mullard CV1052/EL32 - 16 pieces
Marconi VT52/EL32 - 4 pieces
Marconi H63 - 8 pieces


----------



## JTbbb

TLO said:


> Yeah, I still dont have a pair of ECC32


Yeah, ecc32 prices “being asked” is ridiculous, and let’s face it, they ain’t selling! But just occasionally one will turn up sensibly priced, you just have to scour the tinternet several times a day!

A reasonably priced gec 6as7g curved base is on uk eBay at the mo. These don’t turn up often. Mind you it might seem expensive to some!


----------



## g0ldl10n

JTbbb said:


> Yeah, ecc32 prices “being asked” is ridiculous, and let’s face it, they ain’t selling! But just occasionally one will turn up sensibly priced, you just have to scour the tinternet several times a day!
> 
> A reasonably priced gec 6as7g curved base is on uk eBay at the mo. These don’t turn up often. Mind you it might seem expensive to some!


Just seems like there would be a reasonable market of addicts, I mean "audiophiles" for a company that was in the business of reproducing the older tubes. I am kinda surprised this hasn't been done, unless I have totally overlooked it.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JTbbb said:


> Yeah, ecc32 prices “being asked” is ridiculous, and let’s face it, they ain’t selling! But just occasionally one will turn up sensibly priced, you just have to scour the tinternet several times a day!
> 
> A reasonably priced gec 6as7g curved base is on uk eBay at the mo. These don’t turn up often. Mind you it might seem expensive to some!



And... gone!  Good deals like that go fast.


----------



## g0ldl10n

TLO said:


> I am not going to tell you how they sound but will tell you how many pieces I ended up buying at this dirt cheap price with such SQ...
> Mullard CV6 - 16 pieces
> Mullard CV1052/EL32 - 16 pieces
> Marconi VT52/EL32 - 4 pieces
> Marconi H63 - 8 pieces


Well fine then, lol.. I have a few adapters coming in, as well as some 7193, 6C8G, 6F8G, 6N7G, and 6CG7 tubes coming in.. will hear the dual 7193 soon. Hopefully I find them and the others enjoyable.


----------



## TLO

g0ldl10n said:


> Lol, it does look fun!
> 
> How did that sound? Quite curious how you found the dual 7193 for each 6sn7.


From past comments, it is said the best of 7193 is Mullard CV6, Mitcham made with code "D". That is what I bought. They are definitely not exaggerating, amazing sound at GBP10 a piece.


----------



## g0ldl10n

TLO said:


> From past comments, it is said the best of 7193 is Mullard CV6, Mitcham made with code "D". That is what I bought. They are definitely not exaggerating, amazing sound at GBP10 a piece.


Honestly, I have learned from experience that tubes others love I don't care for at all - unfortunately, this means a lot of trial and error will need to be done individually.. probably means more money spent than I'd like to find the tubes that suit me the best.


----------



## TLO

g0ldl10n said:


> Honestly, I have learned from experience that tubes others love I don't care for at all - unfortunately, this means a lot of trial and error will need to be done individually.. probably means more money spent than I'd like to find the tubes that suit me the best.


There is a way close enough instead going blindly. You can consider house sound when rolling new tube types. E.g. I found that Mullard ECC31, ECC33, ECC34, ECC35, CV6, VT52, CV1052, H63..all have the same sound signature, perhaps subtle differences here and there. I dont think I can tell them apart if doing a blindfolded test.


----------



## JTbbb

CaptainFantastic said:


> And... gone!  Good deals like that go fast.


Haha, has that gone CaptainFantastic’s way 😀


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JTbbb said:


> Haha, has that gone CaptainFantastic’s way 😀



Nope. I just wanted to see the details but it was already gone.


----------



## g0ldl10n

TLO said:


> There is a way close enough instead going blindly. You can consider house sound when rolling new tube types. E.g. I found that Mullard ECC31, ECC33, ECC34, ECC35, CV6, VT52, CV1052, H63..all have the same sound signature, perhaps subtle differences here and there. I dont think I can tell them apart if doing a blindfolded test.


When you say house sound, you mean like each manufacturer (the house) tubes are so similar you can make educated inferences on how other tubes from same manufacturer will sound?


----------



## Toonartist

CaptainFantastic said:


> Nope. I just wanted to see the details but it was already gone.


Really... just checked eBay and there's still one showing for sale @ £145


----------



## TLO

g0ldl10n said:


> When you say house sound, you mean like each manufacturer (the house) tubes are so similar you can make educated inferences on how other tubes from same manufacturer will sound?


Yes, most of the time, very close. This is exactly the reason why I dont consider getting the famous TS 6SN7 BGRP. I used to have a pair of that famous TS 6SU7GTY, dont really like them. Generally, TS sounds too aggressive for me, always prefer the laid back sound of British or slightly more active sound of Philips tubes from Holland. Though I have bought 7 pairs of TS 6C8G BGRP becos I found them at dirt cheap price.


----------



## Ranger Ron

TLO said:


> Yes, most of the time, very close. This is exactly the reason why I dont consider getting the famous TS 6SN7 BGRP. I used to have a pair of that famous TS 6SU7GTY, dont really like them. Generally, TS sounds too aggressive for me, always prefer the laid back sound of British or slightly more active sound of Philips tubes from Holland. Though I have bought 7 pairs of TS 6C8G BGRP becos I found them at dirt cheap price.


Sell me a few pairs then🤪


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Toonartist said:


> Really... just checked eBay and there's still one showing for sale @ £145



Oh, maybe it's showing only for UK buyers?


----------



## Toonartist

Very possibly. There are a couple of others available as well (£250 & £325) & one other at £600.


----------



## JTbbb

Toonartist said:


> Very possibly. There are a couple of others available as well (£250 & £325) & one other at £600.


Silly money! Though if £250 one is BNIB and tests very strong and has been checked for noise, it’s a possibility, but still a bit much. Of course just my opinion. That £145 tube has now gone!


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Dont forget ECC34. I have a pair and they sound amazing, just need to match them with the correct front end 6SL7 due to the low gain. So far, ECC83 and EC88 work very well but not ECC35. In fact, I was enjoying them with a pair of TFK EC88 for the past 2 days. Amazing sound after those TFK EC88 were burn in, noted that those TFK EC88 need more than 20 hours to really sound great.


Wait you're using the ecc34 as output tubes? Being able to use tubes with such small output is certainly an advantage of headphones. I can only use the ecc31 as input. I'm still looking for a good output tube to match with them. It's frustrating because I have just been amazed with the cv1102/Cossor 807 combo and trying to be patient with suboptimal combos is difficult lol.


----------



## TLO (Jul 9, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> Wait you're using the ecc34 as output tubes? Being able to use tubes with such small output is certainly an advantage of headphones. I can only use the ecc31 as input. I'm still looking for a good output tube to match with them. It's frustrating because I have just been amazed with the cv1102/Cossor 807 combo and trying to be patient with suboptimal combos is difficult lol.


Oh no, ECC34 as input, another alternative as 6SN7. It might not work for some though becos it only has about half gain compared to 6SN7. My amp has a dual input stage 1 X 6SL7 -> 2 X 6SN7 so it works well with the compensation from the 6SL7.


----------



## jbua5150

The Woo Audio adapters are stupid nice! 
Spendy but MUCH higher quality than the cheap ones I was using.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jbua5150 said:


> The Woo Audio adapters are stupid nice!
> Spendy but MUCH higher quality than the cheap ones I was using.


They're the only ones I use.  Buy once, cry once.


----------



## g0ldl10n

ColSaulTigh said:


> They're the only ones I use.  Buy once, cry once.


Curious, is there a noticeable sound quality difference compared to the ebay adapters, or is this strictly for the build quality which would also be understandable.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jul 9, 2022)

g0ldl10n said:


> Curious, is there a noticeable sound quality difference compared to the ebay adapters, or is this strictly for the build quality which would also be understandable.


That's a good question.  I suppose it's possible that there's a sound quality difference, maybe from electrical interference/stray voltage, but I'm not sure.

The only non-Woo adapters that I have are 7N7 adapters that came with my Sylvanias.  I'll have to do a comparison.


----------



## ken6217

I just received a pair of Ken Rad VT-231. If I shake either of them I hear something rattling around. Should I send them back or is this common?


----------



## g0ldl10n

ken6217 said:


> I just received a pair of Ken Rad VT-231. If I shake either of them I hear something rattling around. Should I send them back or is this common?


I am no expert, not by a long shot, so just gonna preface with that - but, through my own experience I have more than a few tubes that do this and so far they have all functioned normally without issues (fingers crossed this continues). I have read though that whatever has come lose could possibly cause a short, so probably wouldn't want that happening, lol.


----------



## ken6217

Well I just received the tubes and I’m not so sure I want to put them in until I get some kind of confirmation if it’s cool or not. The amp is brand new.


----------



## TLO

ken6217 said:


> I just received a pair of Ken Rad VT-231. If I shake either of them I hear something rattling around. Should I send them back or is this common?


Some tubes have rattling sound when shook, it is normal. 2 things to take note though...first, check for any loose debris in the tube. If you see any loose metal parts, send them back. If you see glass or mica, it is OK. Second, always use a multimeter to check for short whenever you buy new tubes and before you use them for the first time.
Lastly, DONT shake a 300B or any vintage direct heated tubes, you might make a big hole in your pocket....


----------



## JTbbb

ken6217 said:


> Well I just received the tubes and I’m not so sure I want to put them in until I get some kind of confirmation if it’s cool or not. The amp is brand new.


I think I would be wary. Unless I could identify the loose bits as not metallic.


----------



## jbua5150

ken6217 said:


> I just received a pair of Ken Rad VT-231. If I shake either of them I hear something rattling around. Should I send them back or is this common?


I have several tubes that make noise.  
The last pair of 6F8G I purchased sound like a baby rattle.  Upon further inspection I noticed that the adhesive used to attach the base to the glass is breaking and pieces of adhesive are loose.  
The bits are loose between the base and the bottom of the tube, so completely isolated from the tube itself.  
I also have a Tung Sol 5998 that has pieces of the mica inside the tube, also fine.


----------



## g0ldl10n

ken6217 said:


> Well I just received the tubes and I’m not so sure I want to put them in until I get some kind of confirmation if it’s cool or not. The amp is brand new.


Curious, which amp did you pick up?


----------



## ken6217

Cayin HA-300 Mk2. It’s a 300B amp. 

Been away from tube amps for a while. What happened with the TS RP black glass? Besides the fact that you can’t find them, when you do the price absolutely insane.


----------



## jbua5150

g0ldl10n said:


> Curious, is there a noticeable sound quality difference compared to the ebay adapters, or is this strictly for the build quality which would also be understandable.


My preliminary testing says “maybe”. 
Previously, when I used the cheap-o adapters (with 6C8G) and my USAF 596,
there was noticeable hum. Last night I tested with 6F8G and the 596. That configuration was much quieter than with the cheap-o adapters. More testing required with other tubes….


----------



## g0ldl10n

jbua5150 said:


> My preliminary testing says “maybe”.
> Previously, when I used the cheap-o adapters (with 6C8G) and my USAF 596,
> there was noticeable hum. Last night I tested with 6F8G and the 596. That configuration was much quieter than with the cheap-o adapters. More testing required with other tubes….


Ah, good information - will be interested in the rest of the testing, especially if it makes things significantly quieter, I would hop on that train! However, I come across this on their website.. is there something unique about Woo amplifiers that these adapters are engineered to work with? Anyone ever use these adapters on an non Woo amp?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

g0ldl10n said:


> Ah, good information - will be interested in the rest of the testing, especially if it makes things significantly quieter, I would hop on that train! However, I come across this on their website.. is there something unique about Woo amplifiers that these adapters are engineered to work with? Anyone ever use these adapters on an non Woo amp?


I would imagine that's a legal disclaimer so you can't claim their adapters ruined your non-Woo amp.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

New tube Saturday!!!

Just arrived - NOS RCA 1941 US NAVY CRC 6F8G's!  Approved, not rejects!

Boxes are showing their age a bit but the tubes appear to be in great shape.  Now to spend the evening testing them out.


----------



## Isaacc7

g0ldl10n said:


> Ah, good information - will be interested in the rest of the testing, especially if it makes things significantly quieter, I would hop on that train! However, I come across this on their website.. is there something unique about Woo amplifiers that these adapters are engineered to work with? Anyone ever use these adapters on an non Woo amp?


I think the big issue is that there are bound to be amps that can't handle some of the conversions they offer. They know they work fine in their amp but can't promise or warranty use in others.


----------



## Isaacc7

ken6217 said:


> Cayin HA-300 Mk2. It’s a 300B amp.
> 
> Been away from tube amps for a while. What happened with the TS RP black glass? Besides the fact that you can’t find them, when you do the price absolutely insane.


Yup, they have become super scarce and so super expensive. Every once in a while you can get lucky with rebranded 6f8g but in general you will have to pay a lot for them. That's why my amps can use 12sn7


----------



## ken6217

Isaacc7 said:


> Yup, they have become super scarce and so super expensive. Every once in a while you can get lucky with rebranded 6f8g but in general you will have to pay a lot for them. That's why my amps can use 12sn7


I saw a pair for $1200. That’s sick.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ken6217 said:


> I saw a pair for $1200. That’s sick.


There's a pair up on the 'bay right now for under $200 shipped.  I bought my first set from the same seller - great quality tubes!


----------



## ken6217

ColSaulTigh said:


> There's a pair up on the 'bay right now for under $200 shipped.  I bought my first set from the same seller - great quality tubes!


A pair?


----------



## Isaacc7

ColSaulTigh said:


> There's a pair up on the 'bay right now for under $200 shipped.  I bought my first set from the same seller - great quality tubes!


What a tease! No link? lol

I think even the 12sn7 version sells between $100 and $150 these days. I think there are some equivalent 6f8g up on ebay for $400 a pair, might be the least expensive you'll find without being fast/lucky.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ken6217 said:


> A pair?





Isaacc7 said:


> What a tease! No link? lol
> 
> I think even the 12sn7 version sells between $100 and $150 these days. I think there are some equivalent 6f8g up on ebay for $400 a pair, might be the least expensive you'll find without being fast/lucky.


*Yup.*


----------



## Isaacc7 (Jul 9, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> *Yup.*


Those don't look like the round plate Tungsols to me. (edited to add) That same seller has some round plate TS 6f8g for sale for around $400. I've heard he is a good seller but he also knows his tubes and gets market price for them. The particular tubes you linked to look like Sylvania T plates to me. Good tubes to be sure.

While looking I did find an RCA labeled 6f8g with round plates. I don't recall RCA making one of those. It was only $50 so I bought it and I'll see what it's about.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Isaacc7 said:


> Those don't look like the round plate Tungsols to me. (edited to add) That same seller has some round plate TS 6f8g for sale for around $400. I've heard he is a good seller but he also knows his tubes and gets market price for them. The particular tubes you linked to look like Sylvania T plates to me. Good tubes to be sure.
> 
> While looking I did find an RCA labeled 6f8g with round plates. I don't recall RCA making one of those. It was only $50 so I bought it and I'll see what it's about.


Didn't realize we were talking specifically about Tung Sols.  I bought his TS BGRP's about 2 months ago.  Paid full price for them, too.  Boxes are immaculate, tubes are as well!


----------



## ken6217

I’m referring to TSRP 6SN7. That’s not the same tube.


----------



## Isaacc7

ColSaulTigh said:


> Didn't realize we were talking specifically about Tung Sols.  I bought his TS BGRP's about 2 months ago.  Paid full price for them, too.  Boxes are immaculate, tubes are as well!


I haven't bought anything from him though I have looked at his listings. Always wonder where he gets his stuff, and that guy in India too! I bought a quad of 6c8g Tungsols from the Indian seller. Same deal, immaculate tubes, boxes, and amazing packaging. Not a great deal but sometimes it's worth paying the going rate for certainty.


----------



## jbua5150

Any help as to manufacturer of this?  Labeled RCA but those plates look like Tung Sol to me……Clear glass??


----------



## TLO

jbua5150 said:


> Any help as to manufacturer of this?  Labeled RCA but those plates look like Tung Sol to me……Clear glass??


Ken-Rad 6F8G RP


----------



## Contrails

Any 6SN7 that sound the same as the Sylvania Badboys? Looking for a pair of badboys, don't have to be matched.


----------



## Isaacc7

The TSBGRP really are special. Just got my preamp back from repair. I've been using a passive preamp in the meantime and had been getting some great sounds. Put the active back in and was immediately dissatisfied. Started with a pair of 12sx7 which I had always found clear and open. Now the preamp just seemed to add a layer of haze and made everything kind of the same. Switched to some 14n7 tubes. They were the same but with a different flavor. 

Did I just get used to the clarity of the passive and the active was just adding distortions? I mean, that's essentially all it can do if I had enough gain without it. I usually did, but once in a while I didn't so I need an active! Was starting to wonder why I had spent so much on the preamp, decided to break out the big guns. Put the TS black glass round plate 12sn7 in and oooh... The clarity is back! As is the bass. I also get the added lushness and increased size of the soundstage that the preamp can give. 

Mick says that the tubes in the Supratek should be able to go 10,000 hours. I better hope so, these things aren't easy to replace! Still, those tubes really are special, there's a reason they have the reputation they do. It's nice when things live up to the hype


----------



## Erwinatm

Contrails said:


> Any 6SN7 that sound the same as the Sylvania Badboys? Looking for a pair of badboys, don't have to be matched.





Are these the bad boys?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 11, 2022)

No.  Bad Boys have 3x downward facing spikes on each short side of the top mica.  Can't see the plates to see if it has 2 or 3 hole plates, which is also a requirement for "Bad Boys".

Some folks call VT-231s 2 hole bad boys, but the BB moniker is reserved for pretty specific characteristics and years.  THe VT-231s are pretty good tubes in their own right, but they're technically not BBs.


----------



## Erwinatm

Ripper2860 said:


> No.  Bad Boys have 3x downward facing spikes on each short side of the top mica.  Can't see the plates to see if it has 2 or 3 hole plates, which is also a requirement for "Bad Boys".
> 
> Some folks call VT-231s 2 hole bad boys, but the BB moniker is reserved for pretty specific characteristics and years.  THe VT-231s are pretty good tubes in their own right, but they're technically not BBs.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 12, 2022)

Not a Bad Boy.  It must have a rectangle bottom mica (this is what I call a racetrack shape), rectangle top mica with 3 downward spikes on each short side of the top mica, and 3- hole plates. MFG date should be late 1951 to early 1953.  No legit Bad Boys were ever labeled VT-231, IIRC.

Note:  I have 3 legit Bad Boys and while they are good tubes, they tend to be a bit over-rated and certainly not worth some of today's prices, IMHO.  Saying any one tube is the best is a bit unrealistic as synergy with your equipment is key along with one's sonic preference.  There are lot of good tubes out there and some may rank even or above the BB.  The 40's Sylvania VT-231s, CBS/Hytron or RCA 5692, legit Sylvania Chrome Domes, Ken-Rad VT-231s, and a favorite of mine, Westinghouse GTB with rectangle getter and offset black ladder plates.  Several come in at less than what the legit Bad Boys can be found.


----------



## Contrails

Ripper2860 said:


> Not a Bad Boy.  It must have a rectangle bottom mica (this is what I call a racetrack shape), rectangle top mica with 3 downward spikes on each short side of the top mica, and 3- hole plates. MFG date should be late 1951 to early 1953.  No legit Bad Boys were ever labeled VT-231, IIRC.


Thanks mate.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304511922556. The seller needs to put better pics but I am happy to go halves if someone else is interested?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 12, 2022)

Those are not Bad Boys, either. They could be legit Chrome Domes, but not Bad Boys.   Legit Bad Boys do not have top getter holder and top chrome flashing.  They had bottom foil rectangular getter holder and bottom chrome flashing extending up 1/3 - 1/2 of the way up the tube (similar to the VT-231 pictured previously).  Bad Boy is used incorrectly a lot on eBay with sellers either not knowing how to correctly identify one or in hopes that buyers do not know how to correctly identify one.  Be careful as Bad Boy is the most over and incorrectly used term in tubedom.

This image appears to be of legit Bad Boys...


----------



## Isaacc7

Are there 12sn7 Bad Boys? I have a slew of tubes that match the description but I'm having trouble finding date codes. Is that usually on the base or on the glass?


----------



## DenverW (Jul 12, 2022)

As stated above, you're looking for a bottom getter, 3 holes in the plates, green labels, and a "claw" mica on the top.  Dates are going to be from late 1951 to early 1953, with the majority of the tubes you see being 1952 (if I'm remembering the date properly).  I do enjoy the tube, it has a good warmth and clarity to it, and it's one of the tubes that survived my last tube purge.

Edit: After going to ebay for a quick look, I'm going to edit this a bit, because there is a LOT of absolute mislabeled junk there.  You're looking for black base, green letters.  Discard anything with 2 rivet holes, brown bases, top getter, outside the date range, things like that.  Those aren't bad tubes, but they aren't what  you're looking for.

A couple pages back someone was singing the praises of the mullard cv6 and adapter.  I would agree, this is my favorite of this tube type, with my 2nd favorite being the e1148.  A very good tube to get on the cheap with an adapter.  I've been using xulingmrs on ebay with good success for adapters.  I'm sure the woo ones are good quality, but that price is ridiculous in my eyes.


----------



## Erwinatm

Ripper2860 said:


> Not a Bad Boy.  It must have a rectangle bottom mica (this is what I call a racetrack shape), rectangle top mica with 3 downward spikes on each short side of the top mica, and 3- hole plates. MFG date should be late 1951 to early 1953.  No legit Bad Boys were ever labeled VT-231, IIRC.
> 
> Note:  I have 3 legit Bad Boys and while they are good tubes, they tend to be a bit over-rated and certainly not worth some of today's prices, IMHO.  Saying any one tube is the best is a bit unrealistic as synergy with your equipment is key along with one's sonic preference.  There are lot of good tubes out there that some may rank even or above the BB.  The 40's Sylvania VT-231s, CBS/Hytron or RCA 5692, legit Sylvania Chrome Domes, Ken-Rad VT-231s, and a favorite of mine, Westinghouse GTB with rectangle getter and offset black ladder plates.  Several come in at less than what the legit Bad Boys can be found.


Thanks mate. Which Sylvania are they? In my Cayin, they are at warm side, sweet bloom mids, not too heavy bass compare to TS 6sn7GTB new production.


----------



## Ripper2860

Isaacc7 said:


> Are there 12sn7 Bad Boys? I have a slew of tubes that match the description but I'm having trouble finding date codes. Is that usually on the base or on the glass?


Not sure about 12SN7s.  For Bad Boys, dates are on the base. in Y-WEEK format.  3 1 3 would be 1953, 13th week.  You have to know about difference in 40s and 50s tube characteristics to identify whether the first 3 is from 43 or 53.  Bad Boys must meet ALL of the criteria and 1943 Sylvania tubes typically had rectangle non-spiked top micas.


----------



## Ripper2860

Erwinatm said:


> Thanks mate. Which Sylvania are they? In my Cayin, they are at warm side, sweet bloom mids, not too heavy bass compare to TS 6sn7GTB new production.


I'd guess they are 1940s Sylvania VT-231s.  If I'm correct, they are highly regarded and excellent examples of what I call the Sylvania 'house' sound.  The Bad Boys seem like a bit of a deviation form that house sound to me, having a bit more punch and sparkle at the extremes -- great for rock or EDM.  The VT-231, Chrome Domes, 6SN7W, etc., seem a bit more relaxed to me with a bit more smooth, lush, and euphonic sound.  More typical of the 'house' sound.  Of course, that is my opinion with my gear, my ears, and my music.


----------



## Erwinatm

Ripper2860 said:


> I'd guess they are 1940s Sylvania VT-231s.  If I'm correct, they are highly regarded and excellent examples of what I call the Sylvania 'house' sound.  The Bad Boys seem like a bit of a deviation form that house sound to me, having a bit more punch and sparkle at the extremes -- great for rock or EDM.  The VT-231, Chrome Domes, 6SN7W, etc., seem a bit more relaxed to me with a bit more smooth, lush, and euphonic sound.  More typical of the 'house' sound.  Of course, that is my opinion with my gear, my ears, and my music.


Yes spot on, that's what I'm hearing from these tubes as well.


----------



## DenverW

Erwinatm said:


> Yes spot on, that's what I'm hearing from these tubes as well.


Ripper knows his stuff


----------



## TLO (Jul 12, 2022)

Before careful, there are listings in Ebay selling fake Sylvania Bad Boy that fit the description of a real Bad Boy...3 holes T-plate, spiked top mica, etc. This is a good example, https://www.ebay.com/itm/203279692868
It is a GE made in Canada 6SN7GT
If you really must try this fake Bad Boy, Langrex is selling GBP30 a piece: https://www.ebay.com/itm/313526659879


----------



## TLO (Jul 12, 2022)

DenverW said:


> A couple pages back someone was singing the praises of the mullard cv6 and adapter.  I would agree, this is my favorite of this tube type, with my 2nd favorite being the e1148.  A very good tube to get on the cheap with an adapter.  I've been using xulingmrs on ebay with good success for adapters.  I'm sure the woo ones are good quality, but that price is ridiculous in my eyes.


Harmonic distortion is godsend, I guess this is why many ppl prefer two tubes over one...


----------



## Ripper2860

TLO said:


> Before careful, there are listings in Ebay selling fake Sylvania Bad Boy that fit the description of a real Bad Boy...3 holes T-plate, spiked top mica, etc. This is a good example, https://www.ebay.com/itm/203279692868
> It is a GE made in Canada 6SN7GT
> If you really must try this fake Bad Boy, Langrex is selling GBP30 a piece: https://www.ebay.com/itm/313526659879


Yes.  Many fakes out there.  In this example it is VERY tricky.  Although having many of the characteristics of a Bad Boy, the bottom rectangular wire getter holder style is not correct for a legit Bad Boy.  The correct getter holder is a rectangular pan/foil style, whch is sometimes hard to see as it is below the base top.


----------



## rawheadjim (Jul 12, 2022)

EDIT - I was incorrect, my latest Bad Boys are definitely legit, this ebayer is the most knowledgeable one I've dealt with and I do trust him so no issues here.  He said Bad Boys can be 2 hole or 3 hole and what makes them true BAD BOY tubes is the era in which they were made... All were made from the WWII era to as late as 1954 and ALL have a bottom FOIL getter and a tall glass envelope... There is absolutely no difference in the sound between the 2-Hole and 3-Hole."


----------



## TLO

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes.  Many fakes out there.  In this example it is VERY tricky.  Although having many of the characteristics of a Bad Boy, the bottom rectangular wire getter holder style is not correct for a legit Bad Boy.  The correct getter holder is a rectangular pan/foil style, whch is sometimes hard to see as it is below the base top.


Hmm...it looks like Italian.


----------



## Ripper2860

A have a few Fivre Italian tubes and this is not one of them.  It is a pic of an early '53 Sylvania 6SN7GT BB from my stash of tubes.


----------



## TLO (Jul 12, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> A have a few Fivre Italian tubes and this is not one of them.  It is a pic of an early '53 Sylvania 6SN7GT BB from my stash of tubes.


Oh, I meant the getter is the same type you would find in some Fivre or even Visseaux tubes. Like a small crescent shape.

Visseaux 6N7GT




Fivre 6N7G


----------



## TLO

TLO said:


> Harmonic distortion is godsend, I guess this is why many ppl prefer two tubes over one...


Mullard CV6 matches with TFK EC88 for playing Italian string like Fausto Mesolella is living in heaven. If you dont think Monica Bellucci is more gorgeous than before, I will buy them from you...


----------



## Contrails

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1645992...8Iuu-lvSmC&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

He's charging an arm and two legs.

Thanks for all the info BTW. I just need one 6sn7 badboy for my Apex peak amp.  I have a 2 hole Syl 6sn7gt and I thought that sounded marvellous.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ripper2860 said:


> Not sure about 12SN7s.  For Bad Boys, dates are on the base. in Y-WEEK format.  3 1 3 would be 1953, 13th week.  You have to know about difference in 40s and 50s tube characteristics to identify whether the first 3 is from 43 or 53.  Bad Boys must meet ALL of the criteria and 1943 Sylvania tubes typically had rectangle non-spiked top micas.


So here's a typical 12sn7 from my collection. It matches with everything that has been laid out, spiked top mica, rectangle bottom, bottom getter, foil getter, 3 holes. Green lettering not sure about the date though.


----------



## Isaacc7

Isaacc7 said:


> So here's a typical 12sn7 from my collection. It matches with everything that has been laid out, spiked top mica, rectangle bottom, bottom getter, foil getter, 3 holes. Green lettering not sure about the date though.


I also have several identical looking tubes but they are labeled JAN and with no discernible date codes. I'm led to believe that this disqualifies them from official BB status but they do look identical.


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> So here's a typical 12sn7 from my collection. It matches with everything that has been laid out, spiked top mica, rectangle bottom, bottom getter, foil getter, 3 holes. Green lettering not sure about the date though.


9th week, 1953


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> 9th week, 1953


So it would qualify as a BB 12sn7? I'll pop them in and see how they sound.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.  Let us know what you think.


----------



## bcowen

Contrails said:


> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1645992...8Iuu-lvSmC&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 
> He's charging an arm and two legs.
> 
> Thanks for all the info BTW. I just need one 6sn7 badboy for my Apex peak amp.  I have a 2 hole Syl 6sn7gt and I thought that sounded marvellous.


_Everything_ from that particular seller is horrendously overpriced.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Not a Bad Boy.  It must have a rectangle bottom mica (this is what I call a racetrack shape), rectangle top mica with 3 downward spikes on each short side of the top mica, and 3- hole plates. MFG date should be late 1951 to early 1953.  No legit Bad Boys were ever labeled VT-231, IIRC.
> 
> Note:  I have 3 legit Bad Boys and while they are good tubes, *they tend to be a bit over-rated and certainly not worth some of today's prices, IMHO. * Saying any one tube is the best is a bit unrealistic as synergy with your equipment is key along with one's sonic preference.  There are lot of good tubes out there and some may rank even or above the BB.  The 40's Sylvania VT-231s, CBS/Hytron or RCA 5692, legit Sylvania Chrome Domes, Ken-Rad VT-231s, and a favorite of mine, Westinghouse GTB with rectangle getter and offset black ladder plates.  Several come in at less than what the legit Bad Boys can be found.


Totally agree.  Nice sounding tubes, but not the end-all, be-all that they have been hyped up to be.  Reminds me of the red base RCA 5691 that a while back were going for $200+ a piece.  Again, a very nice sounding tube but not worth crazy prices.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  Let us know what you think.



My initial impressions are that compared to the TS round plate these Sylvanias have more prominent high frequencies. Makes them sound a little lightweight in comparison. Not that they're bass shy but more like the mids are overshadowed by the highs. That does help it sound airier, plus strings in guitars have more bite. 

They actually remind me quite a bit of the round plate Sylvania *j5gt tubes. Someone earlier in the thread had asked if there were similar sounding tubes, they might want to get an adapter and try some of those. It would certainly be less expensive than getting proper "bad boys." I use 12j5gt tubes in my preamp but I assume the 6j5gt would sound the same. I'll keep listening to these for a few days and then switch over to the 12j5 and update.


----------



## Ripper2860

Pretty much my impression of BBs, as well.  My preference is a more balanced, fuller, and lush sound without being thick or gooey. (Technical audiophile terms.).  😀

I listen to mostly jazz and acoustic instruments, so the mids and timbre is where it is at for me.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ripper2860 said:


> Pretty much my impression of BBs, as well.  My preference is a more balanced, fuller, and lush sound without being thick or gooey. (Technical audiophile terms.).  😀
> 
> I listen to mostly jazz and acoustic instruments, so the mids and timbre is where it is at for me.


I've lost track, what are your preferred 6sn7? My preamp can only use 6/12sn7 and exact analogs so I have settled in on the Tungsol round plate and the Raytheon 6f8g t plates. My amp can use a wide variety of twin triodes and I love the bl63 with a lot of output tubes for that rich, lush sound.


----------



## Contrails

not sure but these look genuine bad boys?


----------



## Ripper2860

Isaacc7 said:


> I've lost track, what are your preferred 6sn7?



These are a few lush/tubey 6SN7 favs in no particular order.  Remember, tube/gear synergy plays a HUGE role. 

A bit Lush/Tubey (on the warmer side)
1943-45 RCA Gray Glass VT-231
40's Ken-Rad black glass VT-231
Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7GTB (top D getter, black / offset ladder plates)

Other good ones that I would not call Lush/Tubey
Brimar CV1988 smoked glass
Mid-50's and earlier Photon
Mid-50's and earlier Melz 1578


----------



## Erwinatm (Jul 13, 2022)

Guys, I have several 6SN7s on hand, please enlighten me how rare and valuable are these 6SN7s? Thanks beforehand.

Ken Rad 6SN7GT - heavy bass



Mullard ECC33 - I like the sound except gain is very high. Is it Not fully compatible with 6SN7GT?



TS Jan 6SN7/ VT231



TS 6SN7GTB, Black Plate. More airy and tighter bass to TS 6SN7 new production. I like them.


----------



## TLO

Erwinatm said:


> Guys, I have several 6SN7s on hand, please enlighten me how rare and valuable are these 6SN7s? Thanks beforehand.
> 
> Ken Rad 6SN7GT - heavy bass
> 
> ...


Phew...thanks God, there is no GE..


----------



## Contrails

Pulled the trigger on them. $290 delivered to Australia. I just needed one from my Apex Peak amp. I do have a 2 hole 6sn7gt already. 

They met the requirements in the below quote from Ripper2860 - "_The true Bad Boy was made late '51 to early '53, was labeled as a 6SN7GT or JAN-CHS 6SN7GT, has bottom chrome flashing approx. 1/3 of the way up the bottom of the tube, has rectangular top and bottom mica with the top mica having 3x spikes on each short side of the top mica. The Bad Boy also has black T-plates with 3x rivet holes per plate and copper support rods protruding up through the top mica. **"_


----------



## rawheadjim

Thanks for confirming!  I need to watch what I say until I'm sure of this stuff....still learning.


----------



## Slade01

Ripper2860 said:


> These are a few lush/tubey 6SN7 favs in no particular order.  Remember, tube/gear synergy plays a HUGE role.
> 
> A bit Lush/Tubey (on the warmer side)
> Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7GTB (top D getter, black / offset ladder plates)



Of course YMMV but that Westinghouse Reliatron is a true diamond in the rough kind of thing.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ripper2860 said:


> These are a few lush/tubey 6SN7 favs in no particular order.  Remember, tube/gear synergy plays a HUGE role.
> 
> A bit Lush/Tubey (on the warmer side)
> 1943-45 RCA Gray Glass VT-231
> ...


Do you have any experience with the Mullard ecc31 or 32? How about the BL63/cv1102/vr102? Those aren’t directly compatible with the 6sn7 but assuming the equipment can handle the increased current draw they can be used (with adapters) instead. I haven’t much luck so far in getting the ecc31 to gel with my system but the cv1102 is just straight up magic IMO.


----------



## Ripper2860

None, I'm afraid.  The farthest afield I've gone with my 6SN7 amps is 7N7, 12AT/U7, ECC40, and 2C51s.  Yeah -- I like to play it pretty safe.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ripper2860 said:


> None, I'm afraid.  The farthest afield I've gone with my 6SN7 amps is 7N7, 12AT/U7, ECC40, and 2C51s.  Yeah -- I like to play it pretty safe.


I’ve thought about trying the 2c51 mostly because it’s the one chance I’ll ever have of using a Western Electric tube


----------



## sam6550a

Ripper2860 said:


> None, I'm afraid.  The farthest afield I've gone with my 6SN7 amps is 7N7, 12AT/U7, ECC40, and 2C51s.  Yeah -- I like to play it pretty safe.


Amp designers pick the tubes that they want to use and design their topology around that tube's characteristics. When you substitute a different tube, with different electrical characteristics, you get different results from what the designer  expected or obtained. Sometimes you  think it sounds better [YRMV], sounds worse, or produces large volumes of smoke, none of which the designer expected. Unless you are an experienced designer, don't stick your finger in this tar baby. A little knowledge can be fatally dangerous.


----------



## Isaacc7

sam6550a said:


> Amp designers pick the tubes that they want to use and design their topology around that tube's characteristics. When you substitute a different tube, with different electrical characteristics, you get different results from what the designer  expected or obtained. Sometimes you  think it sounds better [YRMV], sounds worse, or produces large volumes of smoke, none of which the designer expected. Unless you are an experienced designer, don't stick your finger in this tar baby. A little knowledge can be fatally dangerous.


It’s important to check to make sure your amp can handle whatever tube you are interested in trying, don’t go putting different tubes into your amp Willy nilly. You gotta stick with things that are close enough to not cause problems. 

I do think you’re being a bit dramatic. This site is filled with threads about trying different tube types in different amps. Those same threads are also full of warnings about what specific amps can and can’t work with. Look at any thread about a tube amp on this site and you will get lots of chatter about the different tube types being tried. If someone else reports good results from a different tube type in an amp you have you can assume you’ll get a similar result. 

While my preamp can only use 6/12sn7 and direct replacements like 7n7, 14n7, 6f8g, etc. my current amp is specifically designed to allow all sorts of different tube types to be used both for input and output. I have also ordered a custom amp that will allow the same flexibility. I’ve become a bit of a tube hobbyist in addition to an audiophile and I love trying out different kinds of tubes.


----------



## sam6550a

Isaacc7 said:


> It’s important to check to make sure your amp can handle whatever tube you are interested in trying, don’t go putting different tubes into your amp Willy nilly. You gotta stick with things that are close enough to not cause problems.
> 
> I do think you’re being a bit dramatic. This site is filled with threads about trying different tube types in different amps. Those same threads are also full of warnings about what specific amps can and can’t work with. Look at any thread about a tube amp on this site and you will get lots of chatter about the different tube types being tried. If someone else reports good results from a different tube type in an amp you have you can assume you’ll get a similar result.
> 
> While my preamp can only use 6/12sn7 and direct replacements like 7n7, 14n7, 6f8g, etc. my current amp is specifically designed to allow all sorts of different tube types to be used both for input and output. I have also ordered a custom amp that will allow the same flexibility. I’ve become a bit of a tube hobbyist in addition to an audiophile and I love trying out different kinds of tubes.


Sorry, but I do not think that audiophiles that received their engineering training from the internet are qualified to make tube substitution recommendations, especially when you have no idea what the target amp schematic or operating conditions are. You may achieve some good results, but you are doing all of this by seat of the pants luck.


----------



## Isaacc7

sam6550a said:


> Sorry, but I do not think that audiophiles that received their engineering training from the internet are qualified to make tube substitution recommendations, especially when you have no idea what the target amp schematic or operating conditions are. You may achieve some good results, but you are doing all of this by seat of the pants luck.


You may not like figuring out if a different tube works better for you in an amp but I'm not sure why you're so judgmental about other people having fun doing it. Once you figure out that a tube isn't harmful there's no harm in trying it out especially if others have done it before. There's no reason to be snide about people's "qualifications" to mess with their systems. Do due diligence about possible damage before swapping, there aren't any other rules!


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 13, 2022)

Question for you guys.. so I purchased a 6CG7/6FQ7 to 6SN7 adapter and got a few 6CG7/6FQ7 tubes in,  and for the most part, height wise, they're all fairly similar except for one. It seemed a bit different (taller) but has the 6CG7 stamp on it, but also has 'Cayin' (they make tube amps, among other things) stamped on it too. This tube was advertised as GE but I could not find any GE that looked anywhere close to this one.

Long story short, after some exstensive digging, it seems that Cayin was sending these out marked (i believe they put the 6CG7 stamp on it) as the stock "6CG7" tubes for one of their amps.

Here are comparison pictures and it looks exactly like a Russian 6N6P. Top photo is the one advertised as GE, the ones below it are the 6N6P.

First photo is advertised 6CG7 and the others below it are 6N6P tubes. So question is, which after the digging wasnt able to come to a conclusive answer, is it safe to run a 6N6P (which its datasheet shows it pulls 0.2 more amps than 6CG7) in a 6CG7 socket?

Here is where I found the info regarding Cayin sending these out marked as 6CG7. 
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/drop-in-tube-replacement-6n6-v-6cg7


----------



## jbua5150 (Jul 14, 2022)

g0ldl10n said:


> Ah, good information - will be interested in the rest of the testing, especially if it makes things significantly quieter, I would hop on that train!


After a little testing, I cannot say that the Woo Audio adapters are "significantly quieter" than my cheap-o's.  I have a pair of 6C8G that have always made noise and are quite unusable.  There was no improvement with the Woo adapters.  The adapters do seem like they may be slightly quieter when I'm using them in conjunction with the USAF-596.


----------



## TLO (Jul 14, 2022)

g0ldl10n said:


> Question for you guys.. so I purchased a 6CG7/6FQ7 to 6SN7 adapter and got a few 6CG7/6FQ7 tubes in,  and for the most part, height wise, they're all fairly similar except for one. It seemed a bit different (taller) but has the 6CG7 stamp on it, but also has 'Cayin' (they make tube amps, among other things) stamped on it too. This tube was advertised as GE but I could not find any GE that looked anywhere close to this one.
> 
> Long story short, after some exstensive digging, it seems that Cayin was sending these out marked (i believe they put the 6CG7 stamp on it) as the stock "6CG7" tubes for one of their amps.
> 
> ...


I assume you are referring to the 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter, no worry if it is well made with good quality wiring internally. Many ppl here are very happy with Mrs.X' s adapters from Ebay, including myself. I bet they use the same wire for all of their adapters, which some of them are for tubes, like BL63, draw more than 1 amp. It is the total heater current draw from your amp transformer you have to pay attention to.


----------



## g0ldl10n

TLO said:


> I assume you are referring to the 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter, no worry if it is well made with good quality wiring internally. Many ppl here are very happy with Mrs.X' s adapters from Ebay, including myself. I bet they use the same wire for all of their adapters, which some of them are for tubes, like BL63, draw more than 1 amp. It is the total heater current draw from your amp transformer you have to pay attention to.


Thanks for the info, and yep, Mrs.X' s 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapter indeed!


----------



## Isaacc7

I’ve been listening to the Sylvania “Bad Boys” in my preamp for the last couple of days. Because they have more treble emphasis than the Tungsol BGRP I found them fatiguing even though there was more detail coming through. Eventually I remembered that the tube combo I had in my amp (cv1102 and Cossor 807) was particularly open and detailed and so wasn’t a good pairing with these Sylvania tubes. I‘ve switched output tubes a couple of times. First 6ar6 and now e3375 and I find both of those a much better match. I totally get why people love these so much. The moral of the story is that it is all about the interactions between different parts of the system and/or tubes. It certainly helps to have a big selection to choose from on hand lol. Don’t write off a tube just because your initial impression isn’t favorable. I’ve found very tubes that always ruin sound, most can get you very good results.


----------



## Isaacc7

I mentioned a little while ago that I saw an RCA branded 6f8g with round plates. Had never seen that before and it was proceed decently so I bought it. Got it today and it is the spitting image of my National Union 6f8g. So happy to have a pair! Now I can try them in my preamp as well as my upcoming amp in the fall.


----------



## DenverW (Jul 15, 2022)

sam6550a said:


> Sorry, but I do not think that audiophiles that received their engineering training from the internet are qualified to make tube substitution recommendations, especially when you have no idea what the target amp schematic or operating conditions are. You may achieve some good results, but you are doing all of this by seat of the pants luck.


Even if you discount the people who ARE qualified and can speak well on the electrical characteristics, there are other people, like myself, who reach out to the manufacturer of the amp for an answer, and then share it.  The builder usually has a pretty good idea of the schematics.


----------



## Isaacc7

I have now switched from the 12sn7 bad boys to 4x round plate Sylvania 12j5gt. I had mentioned that I thought they sounded similar and I was right. Except for one thing, the 12j5 are noticeably better across the board. Clearer, tighter bass, and smoother. If you haven't already I'd recommend checking out the 6j5 thread for a much cheaper alternative to 6sn7. Even the lowly metal versions have been getting rave reviews. If your amp can fit an adapter it is well worth trying. Alas, while my preamp can accommodate them no problem my amp just does not have enough space. 

I'm still going to roll my Tungsol BGRP 6sn7 and my 6f8g as well but the single triodes are good to have in your rotation.


----------



## bcowen

Just ran across this on Ebay in case anyone is interested.  Best price I've seen on these in a good while, and especially so for 1950's production.  Note these are NOT 1578's, they are just the regular 6N8S but still very nice sounding tubes.  Also, I just received some 6N6P's from a different seller in Ukraine.  Arrived in 3 weeks, which IMO is pretty darn good considering the situation.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2039998107...BSdghHRbKRSWBQ%3D%3D|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675


----------



## TLO

Pick your poison, they are all great!!!

Mullard CV6





Marconi CV1052/VT52/EL32




Mullard CV1052/VT52/EL32 (Straight Bottle)




Mullard CV1052/VT52/EL32 (ST)




Great SQ @ cheap price...


----------



## Odin412

bcowen said:


> Just ran across this on Ebay in case anyone is interested.  Best price I've seen on these in a good while, and especially so for 1950's production.  Note these are NOT 1578's, they are just the regular 6N8S but still very nice sounding tubes.  Also, I just received some 6N6P's from a different seller in Ukraine.  Arrived in 3 weeks, which IMO is pretty darn good considering the situation.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/203999810722?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=240365&meid=eb610590e111493a886d70bcad8f3438&pid=101195&rk=9&rkt=12&sd=273969552794&itm=203999810722&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseWebMskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1&brand=Melz&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum:203999810722eb610590e111493a886d70bcad8f3438|enc:AQAHAAABIK6kjqEQMYM5Aq%2BOhcaIlwco9wYktoCXAP3D6Fo7POUdlJK1eqFqv5Y7huO6nLq7hjqYjs5sEMudJpf20WlRkR57jAg2odA%2BjFaZDfdaiqffSCxNrNYbGj4d%2F84UAoT4YwauSqZYx8idk9wLzhBPAQEV2UOMfNZem%2BI5RGldSA1nmUOix1MkUI%2BgJbDqWx646mVAKWE9fmM5T1rENjjbuFzkCcXoVTJCMT4%2FmG3PstWhkntwJ%2FRbBqKkpenCDMrQbMsD1RmND6hod8x2Gkn1oPGZvRI3EN4bVgXOua%2BuJaQANj8JjFhOUHwlNt33fnpCSHQPhOFi5YvHncrtwzNoFVhxlRd6pA5uO5NvaI8xx3kM%2FaF18EXd%2BSdghHRbKRSWBQ%3D%3D|ampidL_CLK|clp:2047675


Thanks for the tip - order placed! I've never tried Melz tubes, so this will be interesting. And good to be able to support sellers in Ukraine.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Pick your poison, they are all great!!!
> 
> Mullard CV6
> 
> ...


Wait, are you using 2x triode wired el32 in place of a 6sn7? That's crazy. What kind of current draw does that have? Who thought of this?


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> Wait, are you using 2x triode wired el32 in place of a 6sn7? That's crazy. What kind of current draw does that have? Who thought of this?


I believe you have mistaken for another tube. EL32 consumes only 0.2 amp per tube, 0.4 amp per pair compared to 0.6 amp for a single 6SN7.
As I have reminded, always check datasheet when rolling tubes...


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> I believe you have mistaken for another tube. EL32 consumes only 0.2 amp per tube, 0.4 amp per pair compared to 0.6 amp for a single 6SN7.
> As I have reminded, always check datasheet when rolling tubes...


Well that is good to know. The fact remains that is mental! My head has been spinning with triode alternatives, didn't realize people were using triode wired pentodes as well. So how do they compare to 6j5 or 6sn7?


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> Well that is good to know. The fact remains that is mental! My head has been spinning with triode alternatives, didn't realize people were using triode wired pentodes as well. So how do they compare to 6j5 or 6sn7?


It is a very common tactic called strapped triode. Search in forum for details.
I would just say I would go this route over 6J5 or 6SN7 anytime. 6J5 and 6SN7 are over-hyped and overpriced.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> It is a very common tactic called strapped triode. Search in forum for details.
> I would just say I would go this route over 6J5 or 6SN7 anytime. 6J5 and 6SN7 are over-hyped and overpriced.


I'm very familiar with the concept for output tubes I just have never seen it done for twin triodes before. I'm also not familiar with using what is usually used as an output tube being use for input duties. I was considering using some as outputs on my upcoming amp. 

Overhyped they may be, but my preamp can only use exact analogs of the 6sn7. So I use them, 6j5, 7n7, and 6f8g plus the 12v versions when available. My amp uses a twin triode as an input tube but it is much too cramped to be able to use two tubes instead. I've branched out to 6sl7, ecc31, and cv1102 though to great effect.


----------



## TLO

In case anyone is interested, have been listening to this setup for the whole day today. A pair of TFK EC88 on 6SL7 and a pair of Brimar ECC804 on 6SN7 for both channels.. Another amazing sound setup at cheap price. Highly recommended!!! Still waiting for Mullard EC88 and Philips E88C for comparison.


----------



## TLO (Jul 16, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I'm very familiar with the concept for output tubes I just have never seen it done for twin triodes before. I'm also not familiar with using what is usually used as an output tube being use for input duties. I was considering using some as outputs on my upcoming amp.
> 
> Overhyped they may be, but my preamp can only use exact analogs of the 6sn7. So I use them, 6j5, 7n7, and 6f8g plus the 12v versions when available. My amp uses a twin triode as an input tube but it is much too cramped to be able to use two tubes instead. I've branched out to 6sl7, ecc31, and cv1102 though to great effect.


Yes, I feel your pain. You can see I have gone crazy when I discovered my amp actually has the space...LOL. Have been hesitated for almost a year before I jumped on using twin triode as I thought the dual adapter doesnt fit.





It is really close...phew!!!


----------



## jbua5150 (Jul 16, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Just ran across this on Ebay in case anyone is interested.  Best price I've seen on these in a good while, and especially so for 1950's production.  Note these are NOT 1578's, they are just the regular 6N8S but still very nice sounding tubes.  Also, I just received some 6N6P's from a different seller in Ukraine.  Arrived in 3 weeks, which IMO is pretty darn good considering the situation.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/203999810722?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=240365&meid=eb610590e111493a886d70bcad8f3438&pid=101195&rk=9&rkt=12&sd=273969552794&itm=203999810722&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseWebMskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1&brand=Melz&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum:203999810722eb610590e111493a886d70bcad8f3438|enc:AQAHAAABIK6kjqEQMYM5Aq%2BOhcaIlwco9wYktoCXAP3D6Fo7POUdlJK1eqFqv5Y7huO6nLq7hjqYjs5sEMudJpf20WlRkR57jAg2odA%2BjFaZDfdaiqffSCxNrNYbGj4d%2F84UAoT4YwauSqZYx8idk9wLzhBPAQEV2UOMfNZem%2BI5RGldSA1nmUOix1MkUI%2BgJbDqWx646mVAKWE9fmM5T1rENjjbuFzkCcXoVTJCMT4%2FmG3PstWhkntwJ%2FRbBqKkpenCDMrQbMsD1RmND6hod8x2Gkn1oPGZvRI3EN4bVgXOua%2BuJaQANj8JjFhOUHwlNt33fnpCSHQPhOFi5YvHncrtwzNoFVhxlRd6pA5uO5NvaI8xx3kM%2FaF18EXd%2BSdghHRbKRSWBQ%3D%3D|ampidL_CLK|clp:2047675


Ordered.  Thanks for the tip! 

@bcowen I am overwhelmed with the MELZ tubes and how to properly identify them......


----------



## LoryWiv

TLO said:


> It is a very common tactic called strapped triode. Search in forum for details.
> I would just say I would go this route over 6J5 or 6SN7 anytime. 6J5 and 6SN7 are over-hyped and overpriced.


Using triode strapped pentodes is very common with Feliks-Audio's  amps, Elise / Euforia. Those forums are replete with examples. I just upgraded Elise to Euforia AE and here's my current (pun intended) roll, sounds excellent:

Marconi KT63 & GEC KT88. Adapters made by fellow head-fi'er @Deyan.


----------



## TLO (Jul 17, 2022)

LoryWiv said:


> Using triode strapped pentodes is very common with Feliks-Audio's  amps, Elise / Euforia. Those forums are replete with examples. I just upgraded Elise to Euforia AE and here's my current (pun intended) roll, sounds excellent:
> 
> Marconi KT63 & GEC KT88. Adapters made by fellow head-fi'er @Deyan.


 great!!! Oh yes, KT63 is equal to 6F6...have checked this before. Too scary for me, 1.4 amp heater current for twin triodes... 
The highest I have gone is 1.25 amp on twin triodes.


----------



## steve468 (Jul 18, 2022)

I have a favour to ask of the technical tube heads here: I have a Melz with a pin that has come loose from the base. I resoldered the pin so that it was at least well connected to the underlying wire, but I wasn’t able to re-attach it to the base. It’s still a bit wobbly. I’m not even entirely sure how the pins are attached to the base. Is something like superglue a viable option in this case? Any other options you beautiful people can think of? Thanks!


----------



## LoryWiv

TLO said:


> great!!! Oh yes, KT63 is equal to 6F6...have checked this before. Too scary for me, 1.4 amp heater current for twin triodes...
> The highest I have gone is 1.25 amp on twin triodes.


At least in my amp. it's the total heater current of all 4 tubes, drivers and powers, that must stay under a certain value. The tube set I pictured totals 4.6A, quite a bit less than the stock tube set in Euforia which is 6.2A using 6SN7 and 6AS7G. I do understand it can be nervous-making but the rewards are great and can be done safely especially if you study up first, and follow in the footsteps of other head-fi'ers.


----------



## Ranger Ron

steve468 said:


> I have a favour to ask of the technical tube heads here: I have a Melz with a pin that has come loose from the base. I resoldered the pin so that it was at least well connected to the underlying wire, but I wasn’t able to re-attach it to the base. It’s still a bit wobbly. I’m not even entirely sure how the pins are attached to the base. Is something like superglue unable option in this case? Any other options you beautiful people can think of? Thanks!


Maybe some sort of JB Weld type, you could create a pool of it at the base and pin.


----------



## fuhransahis

Hey folks, wondering if you can give some recommendations for a 6sn7 tube that would be sort of a slightly "less-warm" version of the RCA 6sn7gt vT231 smoke glass (from 40s). 

And similar in that I love me some bass (particularly sub bass), forward mids (and present upper mids/vocals), and nice extended treble but I'm sensitive to sharp treble and fatigue. Maybe something like the smoke glass but with a wee bit more bite (no less bass). 

I'm running a Holo Spring dac into a Tor Audio Balanced into a ZMF Atrium, so with all 3 being smooth perhaps a more neutral (yet still bassy and holographic) tube could play well?

I was thinking something like the Sylvania Bad Boys (6SN7GT/GTA, triangular blackplate clearglass, bottom getter, medium glass envelope), or maybe Hytrons (VT-231 JAN Hytron (CBS Hytron) military 6SN7GT, blackplate clearglass with 1952 white label, medium glass envelope). But that's just me going of what I think I've gathered from descriptions and impressions.

Any help is appreciated!


----------



## Ranger Ron

fuhransahis said:


> Hey folks, wondering if you can give some recommendations for a 6sn7 tube that would be sort of a slightly "less-warm" version of the RCA 6sn7gt vT231 smoke glass (from 40s).
> 
> And similar in that I love me some bass (particularly sub bass), forward mids (and present upper mids/vocals), and nice extended treble but I'm sensitive to sharp treble and fatigue. Maybe something like the smoke glass but with a wee bit more bite (no less bass).
> 
> ...


Brimar, clear glass, or black glass.


----------



## JTbbb

fuhransahis said:


> Hey folks, wondering if you can give some recommendations for a 6sn7 tube that would be sort of a slightly "less-warm" version of the RCA 6sn7gt vT231 smoke glass (from 40s).
> 
> And similar in that I love me some bass (particularly sub bass), forward mids (and present upper mids/vocals), and nice extended treble but I'm sensitive to sharp treble and fatigue. Maybe something like the smoke glass but with a wee bit more bite (no less bass).
> 
> ...


Ken Rad, clear glass or black glass.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Melz 1578


----------



## bcowen (Jul 18, 2022)

jbua5150 said:


> Ordered.  Thanks for the tip!
> 
> @bcowen I am overwhelmed with the MELZ tubes and how to properly identify them......


I can probably help a little, but @Paladin79 is the resident Melz expert.  The photo below may help in identifying a true 1578 from a regular 6N8S.


(not my photo, but I'm not sure who did it to give due credit)


----------



## SuperRoo

Thanks for sharing that photo


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I can probably help a little, but @Paladin79 is the resident Melz expert.  The photo below may help in identifying a true 1578 from a regular 6N8S.
> 
> That is a great start but specific years and variations can really change SQ.
> (not my photo, but I'm not sure who did it to give due credit)


----------



## jbua5150

the general consensus it that the 50's and 60's are the best years correct?
Is the number on the glass below the melz logo the date?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 18, 2022)

jbua5150 said:


> the general consensus it that the 50's and 60's are the best years correct?
> Is the number on the glass below the melz logo the date?


Number in the logo is indeed the date. My favorites are from 1954 to 1963 but plate style means a lot. Perforated plates are normal but some of the shiny solid plates with metal upper supports are superb. I find very little on Ebay I would buy, some of the better versions can be $350 to $400 each. I have a lifetime supply for myself but doubt if I could find those tubes now. I designed amps to truly exhibit 6SN7 sound. Mr. Cowen has this one.



When you combine the qualities of the Melz tube with a proper power tube, the results can be glorious.


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Number in the logo is indeed the date. My favorites are from 1954 to 1963 but plate style means a lot. Perforated plates are normal but some of the shiny solid plates with metal upper supports are superb. I find very little on Ebay I would buy, some of the better versions can be $350 to $400 each. I have a lifetime supply for myself but doubt if I could find those tubes now. I designed amps to truly exhibit 6SN7 sound. Mr. Cowen has this one.
> 
> 
> 
> When you combine the qualities of the Melz tube with a proper power tube, the results can be glorious.


Thats damn nice looking. What's the round thingy between the tube sockets for?


----------



## FLTWS

Air vent.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 19, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> Thats damn nice looking. What's the round thingy between the tube sockets for?


Ventilation, that is a copper mesh material. Bill guessed it was an ash tray.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ventilation, that is a copper mesh material. Bill guessed it was an ash tray.


You mean it's _not_? Seems to be functioning fine so far. Nothing in the non-existent manual about how to empty it though... 🤣🤣


----------



## FLTWS

Perhaps its a drain to allow any drink spilled on the amp to clear the liquid away so as to not spoil the copper plate top.


----------



## bcowen

FLTWS said:


> Perhaps its a drain to allow any drink spilled on the amp to clear the liquid away so as to not spoil the copper plate top.


That would clean out the ashes too.  Awesome!  I'll pour some 99% Isopropyl alcohol in there to wash stuff out.   🤣


----------



## khashmi

Thanks to Paladin and Paradoxper, a pair of 59 Melz on gain in the Freya and a single 62 Melz driving the Had SEP amp.  The 62 is also part of a pair and I plan to switch it on the Had amp so both tubes end up having the same number of hours.  Not sure how many ppl are doing this (I may just be the only nerd) but I have an excel spreadsheet keeping tabs on all my tube usage to the exact hour.


----------



## David222

Ranger Ron said:


> Brimar, clear glass, or black glass.



+1 for the Brimar --> 6SN7GTY CV1988 KB/FB


----------



## paradoxper

khashmi said:


> Thanks to Paladin and Paradoxper, a pair of 59 Melz on gain in the Freya and a single 62 Melz driving the Had SEP amp.  The 62 is also part of a pair and I plan to switch it on the Had amp so both tubes end up having the same number of hours.  Not sure how many ppl are doing this (I may just be the only nerd) but I have an excel spreadsheet keeping tabs on all my tube usage to the exact hour.


Superb!


----------



## Isaacc7

khashmi said:


> Thanks to Paladin and Paradoxper, a pair of 59 Melz on gain in the Freya and a single 62 Melz driving the Had SEP amp.  The 62 is also part of a pair and I plan to switch it on the Had amp so both tubes end up having the same number of hours.  Not sure how many ppl are doing this (I may just be the only nerd) but I have an excel spreadsheet keeping tabs on all my tube usage to the exact hour.


Good to see you over here too. Be very careful, this place will make you drain your wallet rather quickly lol. Between this thread, the 6j5, and the pentode thread I've spent a lot. But I'm still having fun


----------



## Mr Trev

Paladin79 said:


> Ventilation, that is a copper mesh material. Bill guessed it was an ash tray.


I see. TBH I was hoping it was for the secret hidden level of whack-a-transistor


----------



## LoryWiv

khashmi said:


> Thanks to Paladin and Paradoxper, a pair of 59 Melz on gain in the Freya and a single 62 Melz driving the Had SEP amp.  The 62 is also part of a pair and I plan to switch it on the Had amp so both tubes end up having the same number of hours.  Not sure how many ppl are doing this (I may just be the only nerd) but I have an excel spreadsheet keeping tabs on all my tube usage to the exact hour.


You be you @khashmi. Nerds will surely inherit the earth!


----------



## Paladin79

khashmi said:


> Thanks to Paladin and Paradoxper, a pair of 59 Melz on gain in the Freya and a single 62 Melz driving the Had SEP amp.  The 62 is also part of a pair and I plan to switch it on the Had amp so both tubes end up having the same number of hours.  Not sure how many ppl are doing this (I may just be the only nerd) but I have an excel spreadsheet keeping tabs on all my tube usage to the exact hour.


Very well done, the 62s are not easy to find.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean it's _not_? Seems to be functioning fine so far. Nothing in the non-existent manual about how to empty it though... 🤣🤣


Your amp was free, if I have to do a manual it will cost you. 🤪


----------



## Paladin79

Isaacc7 said:


> Good to see you over here too. Be very careful, this place will make you drain your wallet rather quickly lol. Between this thread, the 6j5, and the pentode thread I've spent a lot. But I'm still having fun


My local audio group spent in excess of $50,000 in order to compare 6SN7 equivalents, that amount did not include what we already owned. That began a few years back, it would be more costly now considering what Melz are fetching.


----------



## Isaacc7

Paladin79 said:


> My local audio group spent in excess of $50,000 in order to compare 6SN7 equivalents, that amount did not include what we already owned. That began a few years back, it would be more costly now considering what Melz are fetching.


I haven't even tried to track down any Melz tubes because of fakes and price. That and I already have about a zillion other input tubes to use lol.


----------



## Paladin79

Isaacc7 said:


> I haven't even tried to track down any Melz tubes because of fakes and price. That and I already have about a zillion other input tubes to use lol.


I have not seen any fakes, I have seen some that are lesser quality going for top prices. I only tried around 1500 different tubes but if some where too close to others in their brands we left some of those out. We could have left ten different Melz in the field and those would have really weighted the outcome.


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> You be you @khashmi. Nerds will surely inherit the earth!


And GE / ECG tubes will become ‘holey grails’ when all others disappear or expire…😳😟😒


----------



## TLO

jonathan c said:


> And GE / ECG tubes will become ‘holey grails’ when all others disappear or expire…😳😟😒


That will be Armageddon...


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> That will be Armageddon...


…and a solid state of agony…😩


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> That would clean out the ashes too.  Awesome!  I'll pour some 99% Isopropyl alcohol in there to wash stuff out.   🤣


Not until you’ve drank some, surely!


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> My local audio group spent in excess of $50,000 in order to compare 6SN7 equivalents, that amount did not include what we already owned. That began a few years back, it would be more costly now considering what Melz are fetching.


I need to join this group, I've spent 1/4 that on 300B tubes already in two months aside from the twenty pair of MELZ I acquired. LOL

Maybe I need to join another type of group.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> I need to join this group, I've spent 1/4 that on 300B tubes already in two months aside from the twenty pair of MELZ I acquired. LOL
> 
> Maybe I need to join another type of group.


I donated four identical amps I designed for test purposes, then most all of my local friends wanted one so I ended up money ahead. My audio hobby pays for itself.  I bought most of my Melz from a friend in Russia some for $25-$35, others for $75 each but I bought in bulk.


----------



## sam6550a

JTbbb said:


> Not until you’ve drank some, surely!


Not isopropyl, we want to keep @bcowen alive! Get some190 proof ethyl alcohol, like Everclear. I keep some around just to clean electronics.


----------



## khashmi

Thanks Isaacc7: I mastered the 6SN7 thread (read very page) as I bought the Freya last year and used the knowledge to secure some really good NOS 6SN7’s before I joined the AA thread on the pentode tubes 2-3 months ago (and read every single page of that 650 plus page thread—twice).  So technically, I’ve been here longer, but haven’t been that active as of late, but still keep an eye on things.  I even used this thread (and other forums/resources) to create a cheat sheet for rookie Freya users on the Schiitheads facebook group to give them a starting point on which tubes to consider rolling.  It has been a lot of fun for me to experiment with different tubes and give back to the community.

LoryWiv: Thanks for validating my nerdness, lol!  I’m pretty sure at some point, I’m going to give up being anal about tube usage but so far so good.  It has definitely become taxing though after I packed my monoblock Aegirs and got a tube amp, which is simultaneously a tube rollers dream as well as their worst nightmare.


----------



## Isaacc7

khashmi said:


> Thanks Isaacc7: I mastered the 6SN7 thread (read very page) as I bought the Freya last year and used the knowledge to secure some really good NOS 6SN7’s before I joined the AA thread on the pentode tubes 2-3 months ago (and read every single page of that 650 plus page thread—twice).  So technically, I’ve been here longer, but haven’t been that active as of late, but still keep an eye on things.  I even used this thread (and other forums/resources) to create a cheat sheet for rookie Freya users on the Schiitheads facebook group to give them a starting point on which tubes to consider rolling.  It has been a lot of fun for me to experiment with different tubes and give back to the community.
> 
> LoryWiv: Thanks for validating my nerdness, lol!  I’m pretty sure at some point, I’m going to give up being anal about tube usage but so far so good.  It has definitely become taxing though after I packed my monoblock Aegirs and got a tube amp, which is simultaneously a tube rollers dream as well as their worst nightmare.


Man, that is a lot of reading! Yeah, the Firebottle has ruined me. I have placed an order for an Ultrasonic Labs amp that allows me to roll even more widely. I will be able to adjust both the plate and bias voltage as well as use both 6v and 12v tubes for input and output. I think I have bought all of the twin triodes I need, now I'm diving into the single triode input tubes...


----------



## Isaacc7

khashmi said:


> Thanks Isaacc7: I mastered the 6SN7 thread (read very page) as I bought the Freya last year and used the knowledge to secure some really good NOS 6SN7’s before I joined the AA thread on the pentode tubes 2-3 months ago (and read every single page of that 650 plus page thread—twice).  So technically, I’ve been here longer, but haven’t been that active as of late, but still keep an eye on things.  I even used this thread (and other forums/resources) to create a cheat sheet for rookie Freya users on the Schiitheads facebook group to give them a starting point on which tubes to consider rolling.  It has been a lot of fun for me to experiment with different tubes and give back to the community.
> 
> LoryWiv: Thanks for validating my nerdness, lol!  I’m pretty sure at some point, I’m going to give up being anal about tube usage but so far so good.  It has definitely become taxing though after I packed my monoblock Aegirs and got a tube amp, which is simultaneously a tube rollers dream as well as their worst nightmare.


Had to do a double take when you said you joined the thread on AA. I'm old enough that I always think of Audio Asylum with those initials. That used to be *the* place to talk audio, tubes included. Lots of folks from the industry and manufacturers too. Now it's basically dead. I think some of the historically more active tube guys over there are literally dead or retired. 20 years ago it was rocking, with plenty of flame wars and larger than life personalities thrown in. Still a good place to search for info. Odds are that most tube things have been discussed over there over the years.


----------



## khashmi

Yeah, I recall perusing through Audio Asylum threads as I was researching various tubes.  Definitely dated in terms of forum formats, but some good nuggets of information nonetheless.


----------



## Isaacc7

I continue to have problems with the ecc31 in my system. I've tried two different tubes with two different adapters and they sound exactly the same. I'm getting a weird, crazy boost in the midrange. It is making vocals really recessed and guitars and reverb super forward. It can be downright bewildering in combination with some output tubes like the el38 which already emphasizes those frequencies in my system. Looking t the data sheet the ecc31 has about double the anode resistance as compared to a 6sn7. Could that be responsible for what I'm hearing? I haven't found a combo yet that sounds comes close to being enjoyable. At this point I'm thinking that the circuit in my amp just isn't compatible with the ercc31, any other ideas?


----------



## David222

Just had one of my CBS / Zalytron's "flare up".  Lucky no damage to anything else. 

Any opinions if the tube is done for, or repairable?


----------



## bcowen (Jul 21, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Your amp was free, if I have to do a manual it will cost you. 🤪


I guess there's truly no free lunch manual.

But I feel compelled to reciprocate, so I wrote a manual that you are 'free' to use (with no royalties):

1) Place your new Incubus on a solid, vibration-free table or rack. Feel free to use isolation feet, cones, Synergistic Research MiG's, or other tuning/isolation device(s) between the bottom of the Incubus and the solid, vibration-free table or rack.  Just do NOT use Sorbothane or your Incubus will end up sounding like an amplified marshmallow.

2) Connect high quality interconnects between the Incubus inputs and your source. Spending a fortune on interconnects is not necessary, but if you want to anyway it probably won't make things sound any worse.

3) Insert a 6AS7G, 6080, 5998, 7236, 421A, 6520, 6N5S, or 6N13S in the power tube socket. If your amp is configured correctly (like mine), that's the socket next to the power transformer.

4) Insert a 6SN7 tube (or reasonable facsimile thereof) into the other socket.

5) Connect the power cord between the nearest wall outlet and the Incubus.  If your amp didn't come with one, resist the urge to grab the mangled and frayed one out of the junk bin in the garage and get something decent.  Most anything from Shunyata Research or Synergistic Research should be OK.

6) Turn the amp on and plug in your headphones.

7) Allow the amp to warm up for at least 5 minutes (or longer if you're weird enough to have patience).

8) Cue up your favorite Marilyn Manson tune, crank the volume to 11, and enjoy!



I'll work on the non-warranty card next.   🤣  🤣


----------



## FLTWS

David222 said:


> Just had one of my CBS / Zalytron's "flare up".  Lucky no damage to anything else.
> 
> Any opinions if the tube is done for, or repairable?


I wouldn't trust it anymore.


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> I guess there's truly no free lunch manual.
> 
> But I feel compelled to reciprocate, so I wrote a manual that you are 'free' to use (with no royalties):
> 
> ...


Why do you need a manual? I thought that your Incubus came with lifetime, unlimited, personal tech support.


----------



## Tom-s

Isaacc7 said:


> I continue to have problems with the ecc31 in my system. I've tried two different tubes with two different adapters and they sound exactly the same. I'm getting a weird, crazy boost in the midrange. It is making vocals really recessed and guitars and reverb super forward. It can be downright bewildering in combination with some output tubes like the el38 which already emphasizes those frequencies in my system. Looking t the data sheet the ecc31 has about double the anode resistance as compared to a 6sn7. Could that be responsible for what I'm hearing? I haven't found a combo yet that sounds comes close to being enjoyable. At this point I'm thinking that the circuit in my amp just isn't compatible with the ercc31, any other ideas?



Your hunch is probably right. It's distortion born from that stage on it's own / the electronics around it or from the effect the stage now has on the output stage. So if you'd like to do something about it. You'll have to measure it and find the problem. IMHO ECC31 and ECC32 are worthwhile tubes to experiment with. ECC31 or 32 are too far from from any 6SN7 to be considered equivalent in most applications. They will change the operating point most likely and cause extra distortion when used without any circuit optimisation.

What i'd do. I could imagine the following is not for everyone.
Double check the operating point in your amplifier. Take measurements to see how it is actually functioning (measure both halves of each tube). Then have a look at the datasheet and draw the load line and estimate distortion. Parallel wired triode curves for ECC31 can be found online.
Compare this to the tube the amp was designed for.

It's perfectly possible that all that's needed is a resistor change for these to work perfectly.


----------



## jonathan c

sam6550a said:


> Why do you need a manual? I thought that your Incubus came with lifetime, unlimited, personal tech support.


…that support, just as does insurance, has a large deductible which kicks in ‘post-Manson’ 😳😩🤣…


----------



## Isaacc7

Tom-s said:


> Your hunch is probably right. It's distortion born from that stage on it's own / the electronics around it or from the effect the stage now has on the output stage. So if you'd like to do something about it. You'll have to measure it and find the problem. IMHO ECC31 and ECC32 are worthwhile tubes to experiment with. ECC31 or 32 are too far from from any 6SN7 to be considered equivalent in most applications. They will change the operating point most likely and cause extra distortion when used without any circuit optimisation.
> 
> What i'd do. I could imagine the following is not for everyone.
> Double check the operating point in your amplifier. Take measurements to see how it is actually functioning (measure both halves of each tube). Then have a look at the datasheet and draw the load line and estimate distortion. Parallel wired triode curves for ECC31 can be found online.
> ...


The Firebottle KT88 amp is designed specifically to be able to use different input tubes. The official list is 6bx7, 6sn7, and 6sl7. I also successfully use bl63 and 6c8g tubes. I usually need to find combos of input and output tubes that sound best (it can also use a wide variety of output tubes). I was hoping that the ecc31 would be another tube I could use. Since I’m not interested in modding the amp guess I won’t be able to use them. 

I have ordered a custom amp that has similar flexibility but it sounds like I’ll be facing the same issue. The ecc31 is just too different. I wonder how other amps are allowing the substitution of a 6sn7 with the ecc31/2.


----------



## freeryder05

Has anyone reviewed the Premium Vacuum Tubes Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE G?

I got these GE special edition 6sn7s and they're very interesting compared to my kenrads Vt231


----------



## Paladin79

freeryder05 said:


> Has anyone reviewed the Premium Vacuum Tubes Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE G?
> 
> I got these GE special edition 6sn7s and they're very interesting compared to my kenrads Vt231


I did a blind listen and we used a point system. The Treasure globes came in at 85 on a 100 point system comparing 25 qualities. Ken Rads came in at 87, I would have to see the construction of the GE but most rated pretty low.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Saw a listing on ebay for a pair of kenrads vt231, I am wondering if the supplied values are indeed matched?

*Tube1: Ia1=14,5mA gm1=2,9mA/V Ia2=14,0mA gm2=2,9mA/V
Tube2: Ia1=15,1mA gm1=2,9mA/V Ia2=15,8mA gm2=3,0mA/V*


----------



## bcowen (Jul 24, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Saw a listing on ebay for a pair of kenrads vt231, I am wondering if the supplied values are indeed matched?
> 
> *Tube1: Ia1=14,5mA gm1=2,9mA/V Ia2=14,0mA gm2=2,9mA/V
> Tube2: Ia1=15,1mA gm1=2,9mA/V Ia2=15,8mA gm2=3,0mA/V*


Depends on how you define 'matched.'  There is no universally accepted specification.  Most (many?) would consider GM or emission values within 10% of each other to constitute a good match, and following that spec the ones you listed are matched.  I would say it takes a much higher level of mismatch (20%+ maybe) to even be audible, but that's just my opinion and is also highly dependent on the component and how the tubes are operated in a particular circuit.


----------



## ARCXENOS

bcowen said:


> Depends on how you define 'matched.'  There is no universally accepted specification.  Most (many?) would consider GM or emission values within 10% of each other to constitute a good match, and following that spec the ones you listed are matched.  I would say it takes a much higher level of mismatch (20%+ maybe) to even be audible, but that's just my opinion and is also highly dependent on the component and how the tubes are operated in a particular circuit.


Thank you for informing me, the seller has been on ebay for 20 years and combined with what you said, I have no reason to believe that they will be a problem.

And now...the wait to listen...


----------



## David222

ARCXENOS said:


> Thank you for informing me, the seller has been on ebay for 20 years and combined with what you said, I have no reason to believe that they will be a problem.
> 
> And now...the wait to listen...



Just curious -- what seller?   

You might want to consider sharing - this group has a good short list of both reliable and not so reliable ebay seller  

best of luck with your ken rads


----------



## ARCXENOS

David222 said:


> Just curious -- what seller?
> 
> You might want to consider sharing - this group has a good short list of both reliable and not so reliable ebay seller
> 
> best of luck with your ken rads


A user that goes by "delicon" from sweden

Fingers crossed nothing goes wrong!


----------



## SuperRoo

I have some Melz coming from Yugoslaviavia  don69-andy
Fingers crossed nothing goes wrong!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

SuperRoo said:


> I have some Melz coming from Yugoslaviavia  don69-andy
> Fingers crossed nothing goes wrong!


I've bought from Don69-andy as well.  Listening to his Melz 1578 now in fact.  Good guy.  I think he's actually in the Ukraine though.


----------



## SuperRoo (Jul 24, 2022)

Yes he is in Ukraine. Glad to hear you like yours. These suckers are not cheap.


----------



## Isaacc7

SuperRoo said:


> Yes he is in Ukraine. Glad to here you like yours. These suckers are not cheap.


Does anyone know if a comparable 6j5 was made by them?


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I did a blind listen and we used a point system. The Treasure globes came in at 85 on a 100 point system comparing 25 qualities. Ken Rads came in at 87, I would have to see the construction of the GE but most rated pretty low.


I am very glad to see my friend Paladin79 still active here.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 24, 2022)

attmci said:


> I am very glad to see my friend Paladin79 still active here.


I have just moved into other areas of interest. I am now playing around with mini radial desktop speakers, woodwork, custom amplifiers, and knife making.  I went as far with 6sn7's as was humanly possible and I get bored easily so on to other goals.


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Does anyone know if a comparable 6j5 was made by them?


L👀K…


----------



## David222

Paladin79 said:


> I have just moved into other areas of interest. I am now playing around with mini radial desktop speakers, woodwork, custom amplifiers, and knife making.  I went as far with 6sn7's as was humanly possible and I get bored easily so on to other goals.




Wow. That blade pattern almost looks like Damascus Steel.  Fantastic. 

Have you made any foldable / pocket  ?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 25, 2022)

David222 said:


> Wow. That blade pattern almost looks like Damascus Steel.  Fantastic.
> 
> Have you made any foldable / pocket  ?


I have not made any so far. That is indeed Damascus steel, a Japanese chef knife. I have also done some refurbishment of single bevel blades with  the help of Finnegan.


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> L👀K…


I have heard those but I always preferred specific Sylvanias with three hole black plates.


----------



## Isaacc7

I have really been enjoying the cv1102/Cossor 807 combo in my amp. Open, lots of depth, wonderful timbres etc. Last night I looked up the data on the bl63/cv1102/vr102 and had a bit of a shock. Looks like it is designed for 180v and 250v is its maximum. I'm pretty sure most amps that are designed around 6sn7 tubes are set for 250v which means I was running my beloved cv1102 at its ragged edge. While it sounds divine, running at the maximum is a sure recipe for short tube life. Something to keep in mind if you're interested in using this tube. They aren't cheap anymore and so burning them up might not be the best idea.


----------



## Isaacc7

As we all know, the prices for the most desirable 6sn7 tubes has shot up to crazy levels. Recently I have been lucky enough to be able to order custom amps that allow both 6sn7 and 12sn7 to be used. I have a variety of well regarded 6sn7 ike the Tungsol BGRP and the Sylvania "Bad Boy" tubes in 12sn7. There are also some variants of 12sn7 that don't exist in 6sn7 world like the 12sx7 and the 2c50. 

I'm looking forward to using those in my amp coming in October but what about my current amp, the Dennis Had Firebottle KT88? It is designed to take a 6sn7/6sl7/6bx7 as its input tube. I had looked into the possibility of modifying the amp but that got complicated real fast and there was no guarantee that I wouldn't completely screw up the amp. Turns out resident adapter builder @Deyan here on Head-Fi makes just the thing. It's an external power supply and a custom tube adapter to allow you to use 12v tubes in place instead of 6v. 





Et voila! I can now use 12sn7 tubes in my amp! Here's what it looks like in action, currently using a 14n7:






As you can see, I could use up to 6 tubes with the power supply. It can handle up to 10 amps but there is a 20 amp version as well.  I get the feeling that he usually sells this locked at 12.6 volts and was originally made so that folks could try gu50 tubes. I spent a little extra and got a variable supply in case I ever wanted to explore the world of 4v tubes. He says it can go up to 13v. 

It works well but there are a few minor downsides. First, it is ugly. I'm willing to forgive that since the price is so low. I have been told numerous times that one of the most expensive parts of audio get is the case itself so it's a good place to conserve costs. The second thing that isn't great is that the socket in oriented so that the cable comes out of the front. I'm pretty sure that with a little communication up front @Deyan could probably arrange it a little better. It's something worth asking about if you decide to order it. Third thing is that the voltage adjustment is really touchy. You'll notice that I have it set at 12.5. That's as good as I could get without it going over. A very slight under voltage is no big deal but over voltage is always a bad idea. Obviously if you get the fixed 12.6v version this won't be an issue. The last thing is actually the biggie, there's no on/off switch. I've plugged it into a power strip and turn it off and on that way but it would be better with an integrated switch. If you order maybe you can ask for one. 

Overall I'm really happy! I can now use all my more exotic versions of 12sn7 and I can still go back to 6v use whenever I want. I might even get some adapters so that I can try 12v or 4v output tubes in this amp. Drop @Deyan a line if you want to delve into the world of cheaper 12v tubes!


----------



## paradoxper

SuperRoo said:


> I have some Melz coming from Yugoslaviavia  don69-andy
> Fingers crossed nothing goes wrong!


Great seller. Glad more are being exposed to the glory of MELZ.


----------



## DenverW

paradoxper said:


> Great seller. Glad more are being exposed to the glory of MELZ.


Sounds like a Chicago/Peter Cetera song .


----------



## Mr Trev

"Glory of the Melz"
seems more like Disney to me


----------



## jonathan c

paradoxper said:


> Great seller. Glad more are being exposed to the glory of MELZ.


The 1578 Overture…🎼🎵…?😀


----------



## paradoxper

jonathan c said:


> The 1578 Overture…🎼🎵…?😀


Needs more cowbell metal.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Needs more cowbell metal.


Both are technically correct.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 27, 2022)

Those tubes make every vocalist sound like Melz Torme.  😏


----------



## jonathan c

paradoxper said:


> Great seller. Glad more are being exposed to the glory of MELZ.


“Melz in your ears - not in your hands” 🤣…😖…👎.


----------



## paradoxper

jonathan c said:


> “Melz in your ears - not in your hands” 🤣…😖…👎.


"Melz in your amp - not in your wallet"


----------



## Isaacc7

One of the reasons I wanted to adapt my amp to 12v was in order to use these:







The 2c50 was supposedly made by Bendix. I believe it, it's noticeably heavier than other *sn7 tubes I have dealt with. I've also never seen those wings on the plate before. Everyone says that it is a 12sn7 with a mu of 10. Has a good reputation and I've been sitting on them for years. Time to see if they live up to the hype.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> I have really been enjoying the cv1102/Cossor 807 combo in my amp. Open, lots of depth, wonderful timbres etc. Last night I looked up the data on the bl63/cv1102/vr102 and had a bit of a shock. Looks like it is designed for 180v and 250v is its maximum. I'm pretty sure most amps that are designed around 6sn7 tubes are set for 250v which means I was running my beloved cv1102 at its ragged edge. While it sounds divine, running at the maximum is a sure recipe for short tube life. Something to keep in mind if you're interested in using this tube. They aren't cheap anymore and so burning them up might not be the best idea.


Maybe not so much to worry about.  I can't speak to your amp of course, but the amps I've had (that I've actually checked voltage on) were running between 90v and 120v.  Not sure what benefit would be derived from running a 6SN7 in an input (or signal) application at 250v....


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> Maybe not so much to worry about.  I can't speak to your amp of course, but the amps I've had (that I've actually checked voltage on) were running between 90v and 120v.  Not sure what benefit would be derived from running a 6SN7 in an input (or signal) application at 250v....


Well that would be good news. I should ask and see what the input tube is being run at instead of making assumptions. Thought Thomas mentioned the input tubes in my new amp would be running at 250v but I'll check on that too.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Jul 29, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Maybe not so much to worry about.  I can't speak to your amp of course, but the amps I've had (that I've actually checked voltage on) were running between 90v and 120v.  Not sure what benefit would be derived from running a 6SN7 in an input (or signal) application at 250v....


Well, that second column does show running the tube at 250v so it is a recommended operating point. It can handle up to 300v maximum. I assume different designs would require different operating points.

Edit to add: Yup confirmed that my amp runs it at a regulated 250v. So I'm still leery about running my cv1102 at the maximum. I mean, they sound amazing but it doesn't seem right to burn up a relatively rare and now expensive tube.


----------



## Isaacc7

Following up on the 2c50. So far it is a love/hate situation. If I'm in. good mood I'd say it is precise. In a bad mood I might call it lean. It is very clear and the bass sounds accurate. I feel like I damning it with faint praise but that is kind of the vibe I'm getting from it. I have heard that Bendix tubes can be "cold" sounding and that they can take forever to burn in. My problem is that I'm just not in the mood to suffer through unsatisfying sound right now especially when I have multiple options foe great sound. I'm going back to the 14n7 and Mazda 807 combo for now. I'll revisit the 2c50 later on.


----------



## Tom-s

Isaacc7 said:


> One of the reasons I wanted to adapt my amp to 12v was in order to use these:
> 
> 
> 
> The 2c50 was supposedly made by Bendix. I believe it, it's noticeably heavier than other *sn7 tubes I have dealt with. I've also never seen those wings on the plate before. Everyone says that it is a 12sn7 with a mu of 10. Has a good reputation and I've been sitting on them for years. Time to see if they live up to the hype.



I'd say they are made by Raytheon and not by Bendix. Here's a 6SN7WGT made by Raytheon from my collection:



I think they look very close to Raytheons in my collection. With a different anode stamp type used for the extra cooling fins on the 2C50.
Or maybe you could have a better look. It may even be the extra cooling fins were spot-welded onto the anode that otherwise looks very very similar.
Same type fat base. Same color anode plates; similar getter shape and connection. Same build overall.
Note the 280 factory codes on them. Suggesting made by Raytheon; in a very similar print/fond to yours.
Here's a 2C50 that has a 280 factory code.


----------



## Isaacc7

Tom-s said:


> I'd say they are made by Raytheon and not by Bendix. Here's a 6SN7WGT made by Raytheon from my collection:
> 
> 
> I think they look very close to Raytheons in my collection. With a different anode stamp type used for the extra cooling fins on the 2C50.
> ...


Yeah, those do look mighty similar. Plus, they have the Raytheon manufacturing code. On the other hand... This is what Brent Jesse said about them when he had them on his site:

"New Old Stock in white box. Arguably the best 12SN7GT tube ever made. This is the rare Bendix Red Bank type 2C50, a military equivalent to the 12SN7GT. These are military stock, and were relabeled for Raytheon. Heavy heat proof glass, vibration and heat resistant micanol type base, heavy duty wide dual black plates. This is a 12SN7 in army boots, and may well outlast your and your amp or preamp!"

I only have a 12j5gtw to compare but I can see some differences. First of all, the glass is significantly heavier. When you hold the tube by the base it feels very top heavy. The plates do look different as well. Here's the best pictures I could get. 







I don't know what I'm looking for when it comes to spot welds so I'm not sure if there is one there or not. When I look at them side by side the base color and font are very different. 




So all of that could have been done as a special order I suppose. I will send an email to Brent and see if he has any info and/or he's willing to respond to random people asking for info


----------



## bcowen (Jul 30, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> *I don't know what I'm looking for when it comes to spot welds *so I'm not sure if there is one there or not. When I look at them side by side the base color and font are very different.



If there are no oblong holes in the sides of the plates, good chance they are spot welded.  There are other ways to fasten the plate halves together besides (what I call) "clinching," but if not clinched then the spot welds are the most common.

Clinch holes (and, well, um, clinches):




Spot welds (the weld marks don't stand out this much on most tubes...just grabbed the first photo I found):


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> If there are no oblong holes in the sides of the plates, good chance they are spot welded.  There are other ways to fasten the plate halves together besides (what I call) "clinching," but if not clinched then the spot welds are the most common.
> 
> Clinch holes (and, well, um, clinches):
> 
> ...


I was mentioning spot welds in regards to the “wings” on the plate. Not sure if they were welded on or if they were all one piece.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> I was mentioning spot welds in regards to the “wings” on the plate. Not sure if they were welded on or if they were all one piece.


Oh, sorry.  What I get for speed reading...


----------



## ARCXENOS

paradoxper said:


> Great seller. Glad more are being exposed to the glory of MELZ.



Reading around, I think the MELZ 1578 might be something I will really like. Reading about the fakes did get me a little concerned, so I will probably be getting them off don69-andy based on the feedback in this thread!

I am wondering if anyone else would like to chime in your favorite sellers / websites to acquire tubes from (not just for MELZ), I am still interested in the RCA and Raytheon VT-231 before moving on to 300b rolling


----------



## TLO (Jul 31, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Reading around, I think the MELZ 1578 might be something I will really like. Reading about the fakes did get me a little concerned, so I will probably be getting them off don69-andy based on the feedback in this thread!
> 
> I am wondering if anyone else would like to chime in your favorite sellers / websites to acquire tubes from (not just for MELZ), I am still interested in the RCA and Raytheon VT-231 before moving on to 300b rolling


Well, if you are in Singapore, you can pick them up... 
I am selling 3 pairs of RCA 6SN7 / VT-231 and a pair of Raytheon VT-231, also a quad of Mullard ECC33.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ARCXENOS said:


> Reading around, I think the MELZ 1578 might be something I will really like. Reading about the fakes did get me a little concerned, so I will probably be getting them off don69-andy based on the feedback in this thread!
> 
> I am wondering if anyone else would like to chime in your favorite sellers / websites to acquire tubes from (not just for MELZ), I am still interested in the RCA and Raytheon VT-231 before moving on to 300b rolling


BuenosAres_Radio on eBay has good NOS stuff, but can be expensive.  Usually excellent condition though.  I bought a pair of US ARMY SIGNAL CORPS CRC  NOS 1941 Tung Sol VT99/6F8G's that literally looked like they were made yesterday.  Shipping is a little slow, but that's to be expected from out of the country.


----------



## Isaacc7

Keeping in the spirit of dual triodes that are close-ish to the 6sn7... Years ago I read about the 7af7, a 6v loctal that didn't have an analog in the octal world. A little lower in gain than a 7n7/6sn7 and have round plates. Various people online had waxed lyrically about their sound so I got one to try out. 

And I wasn't impressed. Grainy, flat and lifeless. Oh well, guess not every tube is going to work out. Of course that was a sample of 1 so maybe it was just a bad tube? Fast forward to today and my external power supply for 12v tubes. I remembered that somewhere in my tube stash I owned several 14af7 tubes. Those are the 12v version of the 7af7. Well, had to try right?

Right off the bat I heard some of the same grittiness and grey sound I had herd before. Bummer. But... it wasn't as bad as I remember. Maybe let them burn in a little... I'm glad I did! They smoothed out within a few hours and have continued to give a deeper and deeper image. Compared to the "bad boy" sylvania I was just using these are a little more forward in the mids but better balanced overall. 

The 7af7 isn't all that expensive, compared to an equivalent quality of 6sn7 they are downright cheap. They do seem to be a little more difficult to track down though. The 14af7 is easy enough to find. Several tube dealers I frequent didn't have any 7af7 but did have the 14af7. 

Like just about all American loctals, Sylvania made these regardless of the brand on the tube. There are different versions though. I have two different versions. First up is the RCA:



Shiny black round plates. Like all the other loctals I've seen there aren't any manufacturer or date codes. I also got two Tungsol labeled tubes:






These have grey plates and is the one I'm listening to now. This is the first time I have seen any other info on a loctal but I have no idea what that number means, anyone have any idea?


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Keeping in the spirit of dual triodes that are close-ish to the 6sn7... Years ago I read about the 7af7, a 6v loctal that didn't have an analog in the octal world. A little lower in gain than a 7n7/6sn7 and have round plates. Various people online had waxed lyrically about their sound so I got one to try out.
> 
> And I wasn't impressed. Grainy, flat and lifeless. Oh well, guess not every tube is going to work out. Of course that was a sample of 1 so maybe it was just a bad tube? Fast forward to today and my external power supply for 12v tubes. I remembered that somewhere in my tube stash I owned several 14af7 tubes. Those are the 12v version of the 7af7. Well, had to try right?
> 
> ...


That is an IBM inventory classification number. Tung Sol made so many tubes for IBM that TS put the number on the tubes: as a convenience and to keep a large customer.


----------



## Mr Trev

Isaacc7 said:


> Keeping in the spirit of dual triodes that are close-ish to the 6sn7... Years ago I read about the 7af7, a 6v loctal that didn't have an analog in the octal world. A little lower in gain than a 7n7/6sn7 and have round plates. Various people online had waxed lyrically about their sound so I got one to try out.
> 
> And I wasn't impressed. Grainy, flat and lifeless. Oh well, guess not every tube is going to work out. Of course that was a sample of 1 so maybe it was just a bad tube? Fast forward to today and my external power supply for 12v tubes. I remembered that somewhere in my tube stash I owned several 14af7 tubes. Those are the 12v version of the 7af7. Well, had to try right?
> 
> ...


Care to cough up some details on the power supply? I've been thinking about getting/making the necessary adapters and such for 12v heaters


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> That is an IBM inventory classification number. Tung Sol made so many tubes for IBM that TS put the number on the tubes: as a convenience and to keep a large customer.


Interesting! Thanks!


----------



## jonathan c

You can see the ‘322239’ on TS 5998s, 6SN7s…


----------



## freeryder05

I have been rolling my Kenrads, GE Globe Special Edition and the New 6sn7EH from Electro harmonix and I think the Globes are my favorite. The bass is too big on the ken rads and the EH's are just bleh. I can't figure out which other tubes to try with my IHA1. I have a Mullard/Cossor CV378/GZ37/53KU (fat bottle GZ37) (Brown base) rectifier. Globes have been the best match so far with my HD800 and BS580s


----------



## jonathan c

freeryder05 said:


> I have been rolling my Kenrads, GE Globe Special Edition and the New 6sn7EH from Electro harmonix and I think the Globes are my favorite. The bass is too big on the ken rads and the EH's are just bleh. I can't figure out which other tubes to try with my IHA1. I have a Mullard/Cossor CV378/GZ37/53KU (fat bottle GZ37) (Brown base) rectifier. Globes have been the best match so far with my HD800 and BS580s


•  It also might be that the ‘Globes’ _for you_ are the best match with the Mullard/Cossor rectifier tube in use.
•  A tube in a multi-tube amp can be only as good as the tubes with which it is used 🤷🏻‍♂️.


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> You can see the ‘322239’ on TS 5998s, 6SN7s…


Huh, so I guess that was the generic code for vacuum tubes? Seems a bit silly since you can see what it is lol.


----------



## jonathan c (Aug 1, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> Huh, so I guess that was the generic code for vacuum tubes? Seems a bit silly since you can see what it is lol.


The number was for IBM…I assume that a different customer, if large enough, merited its own inventory # from TS. The # was to expedite shipping from TS to the right place.


----------



## freeryder05

jonathan c said:


> •  It also might be that the ‘Globes’ _for you_ are the best match with the Mullard/Cossor rectifier tube in use.
> •  A tube in a multi-tube amp can be only as good as the tubes with which it is used 🤷🏻‍♂️.


I have been having trouble figuring out how to pair with rectifier tubes. The descriptions feel so vague sometimes.


----------



## ken6217

I'm going to list these perfect TSRP tubes for sale. Only a few hours on them to hear how they sound.


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> The number was for IBM…I assume that a different customer, if large enough, merited its own inventory # from TS. The # was to expedite shipping from TS to the right place.


I wonder what on earth IBM was doing with 12v loctal tubes. I had always heard they were for cars and other high vibration uses.


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> I wonder what on earth IBM was doing with 12v loctal tubes. I had always heard they were for cars and other high vibration uses.


…research for weapons directional control?….


----------



## jonathan c

freeryder05 said:


> I have been having trouble figuring out how to pair with rectifier tubes. The descriptions feel so vague sometimes.


I am not expert by training…just trial & error…or trial & enjoy…


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Keeping in the spirit of dual triodes that are close-ish to the 6sn7... Years ago I read about the 7af7, a 6v loctal that didn't have an analog in the octal world. A little lower in gain than a 7n7/6sn7 and have round plates. Various people online had waxed lyrically about their sound so I got one to try out.
> 
> And I wasn't impressed. Grainy, flat and lifeless. Oh well, guess not every tube is going to work out. Of course that was a sample of 1 so maybe it was just a bad tube? Fast forward to today and my external power supply for 12v tubes. I remembered that somewhere in my tube stash I owned several 14af7 tubes. Those are the 12v version of the 7af7. Well, had to try right?
> 
> ...


I have several different 7AF7’s that I picked up several years ago after reading some forum threads that raved about them.  Been long enough that I don’t  remember specifics, only that I wasn’t terribly impressed either and much preferred the 7N7’s I was playing with at the time.  From what (little) research I did it appears they weren’t all that popular back then and subsequently not made in big quantities which may be why they are scarce today.


----------



## freeryder05

jonathan c said:


> I am not expert by training…just trial & error…or trial & enjoy…


I have been enjoying. Wallet, not so much lol


----------



## ARCXENOS

Got my ken-rads, at first I had a shock, I thought one side was DOA, swapped them around and they are playing music beautifully, any thoughts on this matter? Dirty connectors perhaps? I have a really good first impression of the sound itself, I hope they don't die soon



TLO said:


> Well, if you are in Singapore, you can pick them up...
> I am selling 3 pairs of RCA 6SN7 / VT-231 and a pair of Raytheon VT-231, also a quad of Mullard ECC33.


don69-andy only had a single MELZ 1578 tube left, so I might be messaging you on our local marketplace soon, depending on the MELZ situation... unless you got another pair you wanna let go . Is the ECC33 a suitable replacement if my amp's literature only states it accepts ECC32?


----------



## Thaddy

ken6217 said:


> I'm going to list these perfect TSRP tubes for sale. Only a few hours on them to hear how they sound.


I'm interested, you can PM me if you'd like.


----------



## whirlwind

ARCXENOS said:


> Got my ken-rads, at first I had a shock, I thought one side was DOA, swapped them around and they are playing music beautifully, any thoughts on this matter? Dirty connectors perhaps? I have a really good first impression of the sound itself, I hope they don't die soon
> 
> 
> don69-andy only had a single MELZ 1578 tube left, so I might be messaging you on our local marketplace soon, depending on the MELZ situation... unless you got another pair you wanna let go . Is the ECC33 a suitable replacement if my amp's literature only states it accepts ECC32?


Nice tubes.


----------



## TLO

ARCXENOS said:


> Got my ken-rads, at first I had a shock, I thought one side was DOA, swapped them around and they are playing music beautifully, any thoughts on this matter? Dirty connectors perhaps? I have a really good first impression of the sound itself, I hope they don't die soon
> 
> 
> don69-andy only had a single MELZ 1578 tube left, so I might be messaging you on our local marketplace soon, depending on the MELZ situation... unless you got another pair you wanna let go . Is the ECC33 a suitable replacement if my amp's literature only states it accepts ECC32?


Yes, if it can run 6SN7 or ECC32, it can defintely run ECC33. ECC33 runs very much cooler than ECC32, in fact even cooler than 6SN7.
6SN7 - 6.3 V, 0.6 A, AF = 20
ECC32 - 6.3 V, 0.95 A, AF = 32
ECC33 - 6.3 V, 0.4 A, AF = 35
BTW, I have sold off all of my MELZ 1578, none left.


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> I have several different 7AF7’s that I picked up several years ago after reading some forum threads that raved about them.  Been long enough that I don’t  remember specifics, only that I wasn’t terribly impressed either and much preferred the 7N7’s I was playing with at the time.  From what (little) research I did it appears they weren’t all that popular back then and subsequently not made in big quantities which may be why they are scarce today.


I tried the black plate version that I have and I wasn't impressed. Sounded flatter, highs aren't as extended. Of course it is just one tube, maybe a different one would be better. Going back to the grey plate and the difference is obvious. I'm impressed by the depth I get out of this tube and the midrange is... vivid? It's like the colors have been turned up. The 14af7 is cheap enough I'll get some in and see if there are other variations.


----------



## Isaacc7

One mildly interesting thing about the 14af7 is that I can't see the heater. If it wasn't for the readout on the power supply I would think that the filament was gone. Honestly probably wouldn't have even tried playing music if I didn't see a glow.


----------



## ARCXENOS

I have been offered a pair of MELZ 1578, the plate construction seems to be the right one, correct? Any advice would be welcomed


----------



## toddc2

The shiny black plates with holes look proper. The mica’s should be rectangular with a small tongue on each side (instead of oval) and the top supports should be longer skinny supports. From what I understand these are not 1578’s. 

Others may chime in as there have been reports of multiple configurations. Confusing to say the least.


----------



## TLO (Aug 3, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> I have been offered a pair of MELZ 1578, the plate construction seems to be the right one, correct? Any advice would be welcomed


MELZ1578 should look like this...first one the left.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-17055619
Here are some pictures of those I have sold


----------



## Galapac

ARCXENOS said:


> I have been offered a pair of MELZ 1578, the plate construction seems to be the right one, correct? Any advice would be welcomed



What you are showing looks to be the cheaper 6N8S Melz which can be had for no more than $60 and sometimes less.


----------



## Isaacc7

Got a followup from Mr. Jesse about the 2c50:

"All of the 2C50 tubes were made by Bendix.  They were contracted by Raytheon for military stock orders, hence the “CRP” Joint Army Navy designation and the Raytheon numbers on them.  The tip off is the base, it is a proprietary Bendix material that was heat, vibration, and moisture resistant and was always a marbled light tan color, different from other brands of military tubes with the brown micanol bases."

So I'm not sure where he got the info but he is a pretty well regarded tube vendor. I've put the 2c50 back in the system to try to burn it in. Bendix tubes seem to have the reputation of requiring a long burn in time. I'm not a 100% believer in tube burn in but figure I will give this tube a fair shake. Paired it up with some Sylvania 5933 which I have found to be a very "tubey" sounding tube. Warm and fat bass. I'm getting some intermittent noise from one of them but the combo seems to be working out. Both input and output are NOS so if burn in is a thing they'll do it together.


----------



## bcowen

ARCXENOS said:


> I have been offered a pair of MELZ 1578, the plate construction seems to be the right one, correct? Any advice would be welcomed


Those are 6N8S with perforated plates.  Not usual for the 6N8S variety, but not 1578’s either.  

That said, I have no idea what makes the 1578 sound “better” than the regular 6N8S.  The mica shape and mica support scheme shouldn’t influence the sound.  Probably the plate construction and materials more than anything.  And if so, those might sound just as good as a 1578.


----------



## ARCXENOS

bcowen said:


> Those are 6N8S with perforated plates.  Not usual for the 6N8S variety, but not 1578’s either.
> 
> That said, I have no idea what makes the 1578 sound “better” than the regular 6N8S.  The mica shape and mica support scheme shouldn’t influence the sound.  Probably the plate construction and materials more than anything.  And if so, those might sound just as good as a 1578.





> Actually those steel brackets are vibration blockers only. I mean they were created for those 6n8s that must be used in space ships or submarines where vibration can be. From my 15 years experience the better tubes are the older ones. And the oldest are without steel brackets. I offer you really vintage tubes from 1954. The oldest 1578 with steel brackets structure are from 1975.


Was what I was informed by the seller, but that said, I still requested for the ones labelled as "original", lets see if the seller can obtain any left from his stock...


----------



## brokemember

Galapac said:


> What you are showing looks to be the cheaper 6N8S Melz which can be had for no more than $60 and sometimes less.



What would be a fair price for the 'real' Melz 1578?

And are there any specific vendors that are recommended?


----------



## bcowen

ARCXENOS said:


> Was what I was informed by the seller, but that said, I still requested for the ones labelled as "original", lets see if the seller can obtain any left from his stock...


Well, the seller is either misinformed or is misinforming on purpose.  I have a 1956 1578 in my amp right now. I have a 1963 in the stash.  And I’ve seen far more 1578’s in Ebay listings made prior to 1975 than after.  While true 1578’s from different years sound different, a 1578 is a 1578, and what you’ve pictured are not  them.


----------



## bcowen

brokemember said:


> What would be a fair price for the 'real' Melz 1578?
> 
> And are there any specific vendors that are recommended?


Seems like they are $150 -$200 these days from most sellers.  You might get lucky and find one for less ($100 maybe), but it will take some patience.   I don’t have any particular seller to recommend, sorry.


----------



## ARCXENOS

bcowen said:


> Well, the seller is either misinformed or is misinforming on purpose.  I have a 1956 1578 in my amp right now. I have a 1963 in the stash.  And I’ve seen far more 1578’s in Ebay listings made prior to 1975 than after.  While true 1578’s from different years sound different, a 1578 is a 1578, and what you’ve pictured are not  them.


Which is why I am glad I asked this thread before continuing with anything, I appreciate everyone posting. Just out of uncertainty, I will insist on the variant with steel brackets and dual mica ledges


----------



## ThanatosVI

bcowen said:


> Seems like they are $150 -$200 these days from most sellers.  You might get lucky and find one for less ($100 maybe), but it will take some patience.   I don’t have any particular seller to recommend, sorry.


The price is much better digestable than I thought,  but doesn't help if one can't find a trustworthy source.


----------



## jbua5150 (Aug 5, 2022)

@bcowen Thanks again for the tip on the MELZ! 

They arrived today after only 3 weeks.  I was able to test them on an Amplitrex and they test NOS or just slightly used (all around 💯%) 
The MELZ logos are hard to read, and had finger prints all over them.  I wiped one off with my shirt to remove fingerprints and it seems the logo is gone now on one.  The one I can still see is very faint, I don’t dare try to wipe it clean. Hehe.  It appears the date is 53 or 58 I cannot make it out. 
Tubes are warming in the amp now….


----------



## bcowen

jbua5150 said:


> @bcowen Thanks again for the tip on the MELZ!
> 
> They arrived today after only 3 weeks.  I was able to test them on an Amplitrex and they test NOS or just slightly used (all around 💯%)
> The MELZ logos are hard to read, and had finger prints all over them.  I wiped one off with my shirt to remove fingerprints and it seems the logo is gone now on one.  The one I can still see is very faint, I don’t dare try to wipe it clean. Hehe.  It appears the date is 53 or 58 I cannot make it out.
> Tubes are warming in the amp now….


Nice!  And you have an Amplitrex?  I'm officially jealous.


----------



## jbua5150

bcowen said:


> Nice!  And you have an Amplitrex?  I'm officially jealous.


I do not own one. 
A local shop has one that I am able to rent time on. 
It has been both a blessing and a curse.
Because I have access to it, I find myself buying more tubes than I would without it.


----------



## brokemember

@jbua5150 Would you mind sharing the name of the vendor?


----------



## jbua5150

brokemember said:


> @jbua5150 Would you mind sharing the name of the vendor?


If you are asking about where I test my tubes, it's a local shop.  
I rent time on the Amplitrex, and test the tubes myself. 
They do not offer any testing services per se.


----------



## brokemember

jbua5150 said:


> If you are asking about where I test my tubes, it's a local shop.
> I rent time on the Amplitrex, and test the tubes myself.
> They do not offer any testing services per se.



Sorry, I meant where you bought the tubes from.


----------



## jbua5150

brokemember said:


> Sorry, I meant where you bought the tubes from.


I got a tip from a forum member here.  
It was an eBay listing. 
I believe I got the last pair.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Aug 7, 2022)

Gentlemen, sorry for bothering about these again, hopefully this is the last time I seek verification about the MELZ 1578

I have been offered these, the longer steel bracket blockers are there, there are dual mica ledges, plate construction looks correct to me, but I would like to seek a more experienced opinion.

Those "pins" at the top don't look as sharp as TLO's pictures, any advice on this matter?


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Aug 7, 2022)

I have two pairs of these NOS that I bought from a well -regarded eBay'er.  Unfortunately one tube has developed a death squeal after <100 hours of use.  Could be luck of the draw, could be they're counterfeit.  I'll never know for sure.  They do sound great though (when they're not making an insane amount of noise).


----------



## bcowen

ARCXENOS said:


> Gentlemen, sorry for bothering about these again, hopefully this is the last time I seek verification about the MELZ 1578
> 
> I have been offered these, the longer steel bracket blockers are there, there are dual mica ledges, plate construction looks correct to me, but I would like to seek a more experienced opinion.
> 
> Those "pins" at the top don't look as sharp as TLO's pictures, any advice on this matter?


Those are the real deal 1578’s.  One is a 1959 (can’t make out the other one) so a very good year to boot.


----------



## bcowen

ColSaulTigh said:


> I have two pairs of these NOS that I bought from a well -regarded eBay'er.  Unfortunately one tube has developed a death squeal after <100 hours of use.  Could be luck of the draw, could be they're counterfeit.  I'll never know for sure.  They do sound great though (when they're not making an insane amount of noise).


Resoldering the pins may very well fix it.  Degraded solder is a fairly common problem in the older Melz and Fotons.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

bcowen said:


> Resoldering the pins may very well fix it.  Degraded solder is a fairly common problem in the older Melz and Fotons.


Might have to do some YouTube homework!


----------



## Mr Trev (Aug 7, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> I have two pairs of these NOS that I bought from a well -regarded eBay'er.  Unfortunately one tube has developed a death squeal after <100 hours of use.  Could be luck of the draw, could be they're counterfeit.  I'll never know for sure.  They do sound great though (when they're not making an insane amount of noise).


Death squeal. That's awesome. Not that it's happening, just the description

<edit> I see a skit with some redneck audiophiles & Ned Beatty now for some reason


----------



## RobertSM (Aug 7, 2022)

All this MELZ 1578 talk has me now wanting to dig into my small stash.

I bought three or four pair a few(2018) years ago when I saw the owners in the Glenn OTL thread speaking very highly of them. At that moment I was still very happy with the ECC33 and the Marconi Canada Radiotron tall bottle 6SN7 foil D getter from the 1950's. So I put the MELZ 1578's away.

That almost feels like a lifetime ago with world events that have happened over the last few years.

Either way I think I'll have to pull my 1578's out soon and take a look at what I have. Pop one into the input position of the Studio Six and see what it does for me.


----------



## Thaddy

A very nice pair of VT-231's arrived today.  The 6SN7-equivalent have become some of my favorite tubes.  I know they aren't considered the cream of the crop, but I probably listen to my RCA Gray Glass 6SN7's 85% of the time with my WA22.

These VT-231's have round plates.  I believe the date codes are matching [VIE], however I'm not as familiar with this method of RCA's date codes.  Can someone confirm?  I also see codes of [3C 278 A] and [SC 278 A].


----------



## Isaacc7

Thaddy said:


> A very nice pair of VT-231's arrived today.  The 6SN7-equivalent have become some of my favorite tubes.  I know they aren't considered the cream of the crop, but I probably listen to my RCA Gray Glass 6SN7's 85% of the time with my WA22.
> 
> These VT-231's have round plates.  I believe the date codes are matching [VIE], however I'm not as familiar with this method of RCA's date codes.  Can someone confirm?  I also see codes of [3C 278 A] and [SC 278 A].


They have round plates? Didn't think there were any 6sn7 with those except for the Tungsol. I have a round plate 6f8g labeled RCA but it is actually a National Union. Well, it's the same as another tube I have and it is labeled NU lol. NU also made some 7n7 with round plates.


----------



## Thaddy

Isaacc7 said:


> They have round plates? Didn't think there were any 6sn7 with those except for the Tungsol. I have a round plate 6f8g labeled RCA but it is actually a National Union. Well, it's the same as another tube I have and it is labeled NU lol. NU also made some 7n7 with round plates.


They sure look like round plates to me.


----------



## TLO (Aug 8, 2022)

Thaddy said:


> They sure look like round plates to me.


No, they are staggered flat plates.
V1E = 1945 Jan/Feb OEM


----------



## Thaddy

TLO said:


> No, they are staggered flat plates.
> V1E = 1945 Jan/Feb OEM


That's not referring to the top mica, correct?


----------



## bcowen

Thaddy said:


> That's not referring to the top mica, correct?


Correct.  The mica shape is independent of the plate shape.  Photo below of some round plate Tung Sols from the top. Note the long "U" shape of the plates protruding through the mica:


----------



## TLO (Aug 9, 2022)

Thaddy said:


> That's not referring to the top mica, correct?


Correct. Shape of mica has nothing to do with shape of plates. I am just quite familiar with RCA 6SN7, so be able to tell from the top. The only way to tell is look at the plates directly. If you shine a strong light from the back, you should be able to make out the shape of the plates from the silhouettes.





bcowen said:


> Correct.  The mica shape is independent of the plate shape.  Photo below of some round plate Tung Sols from the top. Note the long "U" shape of the plates protruding through the mica:


Please allow me to clarify one thing, that U shape things are not part of the plates, they are called clips by many. They are there to hold the plate assemblies in place relatively to the top mica. Clips come in many shape or design, some believe they are also used as heatsink for the plates.
Below are some pictures of the round plated TS 6SN7 for your reference.


----------



## Thaddy (Aug 9, 2022)

Thanks for the clarifications!  I'm familiar with the plates but for some reason thought it was referring to the shape of the top mica. Using a flashlight I can indeed see the plates inside, which are flat.  Unfortunately upon first listen they may have a slight channel imbalance.  I'll need to swap the tubes and listen a bit more.


----------



## Isaacc7

Thaddy said:


> Thanks for the clarifications!  I'm familiar with the plates but for some reason thought it was referring to the shape of the top mica. Using a flashlight I can indeed see the plates inside, which are flat.  Unfortunately upon first listen they may have a slight channel imbalance.  I'll need to swap the tubes and listen a bit more.


This is why God invented the balance control


----------



## jbua5150 (Aug 9, 2022)

So today I decided to go further down the tube rabbit hole.....
I noticed that on the Woo Audio Tube Compatibility Chart that a 6CG7 is listed as compatible driver in place of 6SN7 (with adapter of course)
I looked on eBay and found several pairs of different grid construction and country of manufacture with very low prices!
In the interest of personal audio exploration, I purchased 1 pair of Tung-Sol 6FQ7, 1 pair Tung-Sol 6CG7, 2 different 6CG7 pairs from Japan (one pair I think is Hitachi), a pair of US made Marconi 6CG7. and a pair of cheap-o adapters and the total was just over $150!
I am anxious to roll some of these and hear what they may sound like! 
Has anyone rolled these tubes and have any insight?

Edit: I have pair of Hitachi 6SN7 that I quite enjoy.  I'm hoping the Japan made tubes sound similar


----------



## Galapac

Isaacc7 said:


> This is why God invented the balance control


Is that like walking the line between Heaven and Hell?


----------



## TLO

jbua5150 said:


> So today I decided to go further down the tube rabbit hole.....
> I noticed that on the Woo Audio Tube Compatibility Chart that a 6CG7 is listed as compatible driver in place of 6SN7 (with adapter of course)
> I looked on eBay and found several pairs of different grid construction and country of manufacture with very low prices!
> In the interest of personal audio exploration, I purchased 1 pair of Tung-Sol 6FQ7, 1 pair Tung-Sol 6CG7, 2 different 6CG7 pairs from Japan (one pair I think is Hitachi), a pair of US made Marconi 6CG7. and a pair of cheap-o adapters and the total was just over $150!
> ...


First pair is what we called RCA clear top. Second pair is TS 6CG7.
Before you explore further, look for US made Raytheon 6CG7 black plate first, but NOT Japanese made Raytheon 6CG7.

Have fun!!!


----------



## Isaacc7

Does anyone have any experience with Visseaux tubes? I'm used to seeing high prices on British tubes but these seem to take it to another level. Are they really that good or is it more of it being an exotic marque for Americans?


----------



## LoryWiv

I have some Visseaux 6M6 which I use with adapters and they are excellent tubes, very well-balanced and musical. Haven't tried their 6SN7,


----------



## paradoxper

ARCXENOS said:


> Gentlemen, sorry for bothering about these again, hopefully this is the last time I seek verification about the MELZ 1578
> 
> I have been offered these, the longer steel bracket blockers are there, there are dual mica ledges, plate construction looks correct to me, but I would like to seek a more experienced opinion.
> 
> Those "pins" at the top don't look as sharp as TLO's pictures, any advice on this matter?


Good to go.


----------



## jbua5150 (Aug 10, 2022)

Upon installing my new MELZ, I found them to have a bit too much treble sparkle.  They seemed fatiguing after a short listening session. 
I was using TS5998, MELZ 6N8S, and USAF-596.
A few tube swaps later and I've found a couple nice combos.
RCA 6AS7, MELZ 6N8S, CV593 was quite a bit fuller, less brittle sound.   Much more listenable.
Next, I swapped in JAN-CHA-6080WB and WOW! Juicy fat bass, full mids, and clear treble.  Just lacks a little umph. (I like to Iisten loud) 
Now, I'm on JAN-CHA-6080WB, MELZ 6N8S, USAF-596.  This combo is the best so far.  Runs a bit hotter though.
As I recall, these JAN-CHA-6080W used to be noisy, but nothing tonight.  Dead quiet, and wonderful sound.
Fun stuff!!


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Correct. Shape of mica has nothing to do with shape of plates. I am just quite familiar with RCA 6SN7, so be able to tell from the top. The only way to tell is look at the plates directly. If you shine a strong light from the back, you should be able to make out the shape of the plates from the silhouettes.
> 
> 
> Please allow me to clarify one thing, *that U shape things are not part of the plates, they are called clips by many.* They are there to hold the plate assemblies in place relatively to the top mica. Clips come in many shape or design, some believe they are also used as heatsink for the plates.
> Below are some pictures of the round plated TS 6SN7 for your reference.


You are correct of course, and thanks for the clarification and pointing it out.


----------



## bcowen

jbua5150 said:


> Upon installing my new MELZ, I found them to have a bit too much treble sparkle.  They seemed fatiguing after a short listening session.
> I was using TS5998, MELZ 6N8S, and USAF-596.
> A few tube swaps later and I've found a couple nice combos.
> RCA 6AS7, MELZ 6N8S, CV593 was quite a bit fuller, less brittle sound.   Much more listenable.
> ...


Not sure how much time you've put on the Melz, but you might find the treble smooths out and integrates better after they get 25 or so hours on them.  To my ears (and just relating my experience), most Russian tubes are somewhat brittle and etched in the treble initially and improve quite a bit with some break-in time.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Not sure how much time you've put on the Melz, but you might find the treble smooths out and integrates better after they get 25 or so hours on them.  To my ears (and just relating my experience), most Russian tubes are somewhat brittle and etched in the treble initially and improve quite a bit with some break-in time.


…again, being instruments of the ‘_Cold War‘_, many Russian tubes need extra warmup time…🤣


----------



## jbua5150

bcowen said:


> Not sure how much time you've put on the Melz, but you might find the treble smooths out and integrates better after they get 25 or so hours on them.  To my ears (and just relating my experience), most Russian tubes are somewhat brittle and etched in the treble initially and improve quite a bit with some break-in time.


Good to know! 
I only have about 15 or so hours on them.  
Today I put them into the gain stage of my Schiit Freya+.  They sound quite nice in that setup.  I suspect they will spend the next many hours in the Freya


----------



## SuperRoo

My first Melz are here. The tube on the right was not a happy camper at first, almost gave up on it. Random scratchy popping sounds. Has been microphonic with the slightest vibration when warming up. It is settling down now after 24+ hours. They sound great right up there with my favorites but need more time before final verdict.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

SuperRoo said:


> My first Melz are here. The tube on the right was not a happy camper at first, almost gave up on it. Random scratchy popping sounds. Has been microphonic with the slightest vibration when warming up. It is settling down now after 24+ hours. They sound great right up there with my favorites but need more time before final verdict.


Mine did the same thing.  Unfortunately one has developed a "death squeal".  I'm going to (eventually) try re-soldering the pins.  Until then, back to my 6F8G's for a bit.


----------



## Ranger Ron

ColSaulTigh said:


> Mine did the same thing.  Unfortunately one has developed a "death squeal".  I'm going to (eventually) try re-soldering the pins.  Until then, back to my 6F8G's for a bit.


Just go for it! I’ve resurrected a handful of KenRad’s doing that too.  I had no idea what I was doing at first but when the tube was quiet in my amp I just couldn’t believe it.  I’ve had tubes that tested dead come back to life with a soldering job.  The most stubborn tube I’ve dealt with needed a night in the freezer to wake up. Who knows!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Ranger Ron said:


> Just go for it! I’ve resurrected a handful of KenRad’s doing that too.  I had no idea what I was doing at first but when the tube was quiet in my amp I just couldn’t believe it.  I’ve had tubes that tested dead come back to life with a soldering job.  The most stubborn tube I’ve dealt with needed a night in the freezer to wake up. Who knows!


I need to order a soldering iron and some helping hands...I haven't soldered anything in years.  Maybe Harbor Freight has some coupons.


----------



## pravous

Harbor freight has some decent helping hands  options.  Like most tools, soldering irons you get what you pay for.  Temperature control and the ability to swap out tips makes everything easier.  I got a 
Hakko FX888D-23BY​to build my Bottlehead crack and I have zero regrets. Solder choice also helps. I recommend 63/37 rosin core. 
Kester 44 Solder Wire, 63/37 0.031-in, RMA Rosin​has always served me well.


----------



## ARCXENOS

ColSaulTigh said:


> Mine did the same thing.  Unfortunately one has developed a "death squeal".  I'm going to (eventually) try re-soldering the pins.  Until then, back to my 6F8G's for a bit.


Hopefully everything goes well and resoldering does fix it!

Are the 6F8G with adapters mostly safe replacements?


----------



## bcowen

ColSaulTigh said:


> I need to order a soldering iron and some helping hands...I haven't soldered anything in years.  Maybe Harbor Freight has some coupons.



Totally agree with @pravous that getting a good soldering iron is important.  Any helping hand device you like from Harbor Freight is fine, but don't cheap out on the iron or the solder (Kester is great as is Cardas).  You need something with a controllable tip temperature as most pencil type irons that just plug straight into the wall have wide variation in the tip temp and can be very slow to recover once you put a load on them (ie: touching the tip to the item to be soldered).  The Hakko's are excellent as are the Wellers.  I just bought a new one after using my last one for over 25 years and the iron itself had started to come apart:  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077JDGY1J/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If these soldering stations seem expensive, consider how much we're paying for a single tube these days and it puts things in perspective.  If it fixes just one Melz 1578, it just paid for itself.  🤣


----------



## TLO

Just got this for cheap at about USD15.50 shipped from China last week...


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Just got this for cheap at about USD15.50 shipped from China last week...


That's pretty cool!  Are the colored screw-thingies magnetic so that you can position them however needed?


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> That's pretty cool!  Are the colored screw-thingies magnetic so that you can position them however needed?


Yes, so is the magnifying glass. Those magnetic bases are surprisingly strong.


----------



## sam6550a

SuperRoo said:


> My first Melz are here. The tube on the right was not a happy camper at first, almost gave up on it. Random scratchy popping sounds. Has been microphonic with the slightest vibration when warming up. It is settling down now after 24+ hours. They sound great right up there with my favorites but need more time before final verdict.


Melz are notorious for needing their pins resoldered. Performing that repair usually cures all of the complaints of hum, noise, crackle, pop, etc.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

sam6550a said:


> Melz are notorious for needing their pins resoldered. Performing that repair usually cures all of the complaints of hum, noise, crackle, pop, etc.


Well, we'll find out tomorrow.  Bought a soldering station and desoldering tools.  Tomorrow I'll have the time to experiment.


----------



## SuperRoo

What temp should the soldering iron be set?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

SuperRoo said:


> What temp should the soldering iron be set?


Good question!  I don't know.

Bueller?


----------



## SuperRoo

Is this good advice?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

SuperRoo said:


> Is this good advice?



I saw that video and also found this one.  It appears to be a fairly simple process...


----------



## Galapac

This seems to get asked every few months and the answer is within Head-FI.
 Very simple procedure, don’t overthink it.
The most important step is to have a heat sink of some sort on the pin you are working on to not overheat the tube.
I use an alligator clip.

Courtesy of @Paladin79 

Resoldering Tube Pins

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/post-14881488


----------



## bcowen

SuperRoo said:


> What temp should the soldering iron be set?


I use 750 degrees.


----------



## bcowen

ColSaulTigh said:


> I saw that video and also found this one.  It appears to be a fairly simple process...



The second video is better than the first as it shows the use of flux which is perhaps not absolutely necessary but is very beneficial.  But both those videos position the tube upside down, and that's not what I'd do as you risk having molten solder flow into areas you don't want in the tube base.  I position mine pretty much horizontal. Capillary action will draw the solder inside the pin.


----------



## sam6550a

SuperRoo said:


> What temp should the soldering iron be set?


I set mine at 700F with a chisel tip, unless there is a problem melting the solder, then I go to 800F.


----------



## pravous

bcowen said:


> I use 750 degrees.


Same here.  Seems to work pretty good for both through hole and surface mount.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I use 750 degrees.


Wimp🤪🤪🤪


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> I set mine at 700F with a chisel tip, unless there is a problem melting the solder, then I go to 800F.


I use 800f with a medium flat top.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Wimp🤪🤪🤪


The 'nuclear core temp' option was too expensive when I bought the Weller.   🤣


----------



## RobertSM

Good choice. I too bought the Weller! A few years ago but the Weller nonetheless.


----------



## Paladin79

RobertSM said:


> Good choice. I too bought the Weller! A few years ago but the Weller nonetheless.


I have a few Wellers set up in my shop as well as a Hakko variable temp. I still have a few Wellers new in the box from when I ran my own business. I also used a lot of Pace desoldering stations.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have a few Wellers set up in my shop as well as a Hakko variable temp. *I still have a few Wellers new in the box from when I ran my own business*. I also used a lot of Pace desoldering stations.


Oooohh....NOS Wellers.  From the 1950's?  Those must be worth a fortune!    🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oooohh....NOS Wellers.  From the 1950's?  Those must be worth a fortune!    🤣🤣


Early 2000’s Jerk face.😁😁😁


----------



## DougD

Paladin79 said:


> Early 2000’s Jerk face.😁😁😁


BCowen secretly eats JAMACIAN barbeque and rubs it all over his face???? Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, oh my goodness. As they say, that was not on my bingo card when I got up this morning.


----------



## David222

DougD said:


> BCowen secretly eats JAMACIAN barbeque and rubs it all over his face???? Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, oh my goodness. As they say, that was not on my bingo card when I got up this morning.



I'd venture to guess @bcowen uses a Carolina dry rub - not Jamacian.


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> I'd venture to guess @bcowen uses a Carolina dry rub - not Jamacian.


LOL!  Both Jamaican and Carolina BBQ are great, actually.  Just don't ever rub Texas BBQ on your face.....ever.   🤣


----------



## David222

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Both Jamaican and Carolina BBQ are great, actually.  Just don't ever rub Texas BBQ on your face.....ever.   🤣



Up in the NY/City area we have Dinosaur BBQ - here's a selfie of me going for lunch the other day


----------



## bcowen

David222 said:


> Up in the NY/City area we have Dinosaur BBQ - here's a selfie of me going for lunch the other day


Is that you on the left? Or right?   🤣


----------



## ARCXENOS

Galapac said:


> This seems to get asked every few months and the answer is within Head-FI.
> Very simple procedure, don’t overthink it.
> The most important step is to have a heat sink of some sort on the pin you are working on to not overheat the tube.
> I use an alligator clip.
> ...



Thanks for linking this, I hope I will not need to use this information, but....


----------



## Paladin79

ARCXENOS said:


> Thanks for linking this, I hope I will not need to use this information, but....


You can always contact me if you have issues.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Aug 14, 2022)

So if anyone is interested, this was a lot easier than I thought.  Forgive the primative setup, but space is at a premium here, and I wasn't going to invest a ton of money in a one-off project.

Equipment:
Schneider Soldering Station ($50 - Harbor Freight)
Schneider Desoldering Tools ($13 for a 3-pack - Harbor Freight)
Rosin-core solder, .031"/.8mm ($5 - Harbor Freight)
Oatey No. 95 lead-free tinning flux ($4 - Home Depot)
Hemostat (have laying around)
Isopropyl Alcohol (had some here at the house)
Q-Tips
Damp Rag
Magnifying Glasses (because I'm old and blind)

1) Secure the tube in something that won't move around.  I used foam inside a glass and the Hemostat kept it from rolling.

2) Use a wide/broad tip in your soldering iron.  I didn't have one, so I just worked with what I had.  Set soldering iron for 750°F (or so)

3) Apply a SMALL amount of flux to the pins with a small paintbrush (think hobby brush) or Q-Tip.  Just enough to coat, not globs of it.

4) Clamp the heat sync (hemostat, alligator clip, etc.) about half way down the pin.  Start with the key pin (if you have one) or mark where you start.

5) Press soldering iron onto the pin (between the end and the heat sync)  Flux will "sizzle" and the old solder will melt.  Give it a few seconds.  Once it becomes shiny, use the desoldering tool to suck the old solder out.  Do it two or three times just to be sure.  You should have a tube and see the tiny wire (if your eyes are good enough).

6) Apply a little more flux.  Then put the new solder up to the hole, like you're trying to stuff it inside (but don't press it in, just enough pressure to hold it in place.  Apply the siding iron to the pin again.  The solder will begin to melt.  Start to push until you get maybe 1/2 the length of the pin's worth inside.  Pull away and then remove the iron.  Try not to touch the solder with the iron directly.  Let the metal heat do the work.

7) Repeat for all pins.

8) Clean all pins of excess solder with the desoldering tape if necessary.  Then clean each pin thoroughly with Isopropyl Alcohol and a Q-Tip.

9) Use a fingernail file to gently knock off any burrs or rough spots.

10) Pop those tubes in and give them a listen!

My Melz took about 1/2 hour to quiet down, but now seem to be fine.  No more crackling or "death squeal".  Time will tell if I was successful.


----------



## David222

bcowen said:


> Is that you on the left? Or right?   🤣



That's me on the left, you probably did not recognize my sword, as the photo is zoomed out    

Sword is from late 1800s - blacksmith was James Luker of 133 Grand Street NY, NY.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 14, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> So if anyone is interested, this was a lot easier than I thought.  Forgive the primative setup, but space is at a premium here, and I wasn't going to invest a ton of money in a one-off project.
> 
> Equipment:
> Schneider Soldering Station ($50 - Harbor Freight)
> ...


I use liquid rosin solder flux in a small plastic bottle with a needle tip so I am sure the flux gets inside the pins, that is what really has to be cleaned. I began this process on mostly Russian tubes that were sixty years old or more. I also started it because I was told Foton tubes needed a crazy long break in, 200 hours or some such and the statement did not seem logical and naturally it was not. That has the look of paste flux to me in the photo.

Prior to the plastic bottle I would use a sharp pick and place a drop or two of the rosin inside the tube pins.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Paladin79 said:


> I use liquid rosin solder flux in a small plastic bottle with a needle tip so I am sure the flux gets inside the pins, that is what really has to be cleaned. I began this process on mostly Russian tubes that were sixty years old or more. I also started it because I was told Foton tubes needed a crazy long break in, 200 hours or some such and the statement did not seem logical and naturally it was not. That has the look of paste flux to me in the photo.
> 
> Prior to the plastic bottle I would use a sharp pick and place a drop or two of the rosin inside the tube pins.


It is paste flux.  I don't have any liquid flux and couldn't find any at either Lowe's or Home Depot.  If they continue to give me issues I'll order some and redo them I guess.


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 14, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> It is paste flux.  I don't have any liquid flux and couldn't find any at either Lowe's or Home Depot.  If they continue to give me issues I'll order some and redo them I guess.


You may well be fine with it, what you want to avoid is any kind of acid based flux. A combination of acid and lead in electronics is not a good thing.

I use a .020 solder that is 2% silver, the thin size allows me penetrate the pin more easily. It is a discontinued solder from Kester but NTE bought a bunch and they sell it in small plastic tubes. That is just a personal preference and I have used .031 solder before.

https://www.amazon.com/Kester-83-7145-0415-Electronic-Silver-Diameter/dp/B004DEUYBY/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3BI1PS2I38LN1&keywords=nte+silver+solder&qid=1660503649&sprefix=nte+silver+solder,aps,96&sr=8-5

https://www.amazon.com/2x50ml-KESTER-186-Soldering-Solder/dp/B07S19JFG5/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1Y42W1WGKNC1M&keywords=kester+liquid+rosin+flux&qid=1660503710&sprefix=kester+liquid+rosin+flux,aps,109&sr=8-5

Some of my work.



I use Panavises a lot, rubber jaws, replacement jaws if I want to hold a PC board. If I get a little too much solder on the outside of the pin on occasion I use solderwick to clean it up a bit, or a small file or an extremely sharp knife. That is rare because most of the work is inside the pin. In one case I had a pin wire so corroded that it took three flux applications to fix.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Paladin79 said:


> You may well be fine with it, what you want to avoid is any kind of acid based flux. A combination of acid and lead in electronics is not a good thing.
> 
> I use a .020 solder that is 2% silver, the thin size allows me penetrate the pin more easily. It is a discontinued solder from Kester but NTE bought a bunch and they sell it in small plastic tubes. That is just a personal preference and I have used .031 solder before.
> 
> ...


Here's the flux I used: https://www.oatey.com/products/oatey-no-95-tinning-flux-617577034?upc=038753303734  It doesn't mention being acid-free.  Maybe I should just go ahead and order some new liquid flux on Amazon and do these over next weekend.

The solder is 4% silver, 96% tin.  I had read a post saying pure silver wasn't the right stuff to use and regular solder is fine for this application.  But again, it's been 20 years since I did any real soldering (and that was mostly car audio stuff).


----------



## khashmi

So Paladin79, are you cool with head-fi members sending you their Melz for repairs, who are not even remotely handy with soldering? Just wanted to know for future reference.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

khashmi said:


> So Paladin79, are you cool with head-fi members sending you their Melz for repairs, who are not even remotely handy with soldering? Just wanted to know for future reference.


Like I said, I haven't picked up a soldering iron in 20 years.  This is literally a 30 minute job (per tube) start-to-finish.  Get the right gear up front and you're good to go.  It's not rocket science.  Trust me, experimenting on a $400+ pair of tubes that were THIS || CLOSE to getting tossed can be nerve-wracking.  But so far, so good!


----------



## raindownthunda

ColSaulTigh said:


> So if anyone is interested, this was a lot easier than I thought.  Forgive the primative setup, but space is at a premium here, and I wasn't going to invest a ton of money in a one-off project.
> 
> Equipment:
> Schneider Soldering Station ($50 - Harbor Freight)
> ...


Nice easy to follow write-up and glad to hear this resolved your issues! I have done this exact same process with a few tubes to mostly great success. Flux helps a lot. There is one 1961 Melz 1587 I’ve done this 3 times to and it still has a low level hum, so may not be a one size fits all fix for all tube noise, but definitely worth the effort if an initial pin cleaning doesn’t help.


----------



## sam6550a

ColSaulTigh said:


> So if anyone is interested, this was a lot easier than I thought.  Forgive the primative setup, but space is at a premium here, and I wasn't going to invest a ton of money in a one-off project.
> 
> Equipment:
> Schneider Soldering Station ($50 - Harbor Freight)
> ...


What kind of flux are you using? Anything that you buy at a home improvement store is probably acid based for use in plumbing connections. This stuff is INSTANT DEATH for electronics. The flux must be rosin based, usually a solid dissolved in alcohol.


----------



## SuperRoo

This is what I have on order.
https://amazon.com/gp/product/B01MR49JY1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## raindownthunda

sam6550a said:


> What kind of flux are you using? Anything that you buy at a home improvement store is probably acid based for use in plumbing connections. This stuff is INSTANT DEATH for electronics. The flux must be rosin based, usually a solid dissolved in alcohol.


Not OP but I found the needle applicator “no clean” variety that comes in a syringe to be wayyy easier to direct inside the pins than trying to jab typical flux paste in with other tools. something like this: https://a.co/d/2OLXYai


----------



## sam6550a

SuperRoo said:


> This is what I have on order.
> https://amazon.com/gp/product/B01MR49JY1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Looks good, but, use it with 60/40 lead/tin solder.


----------



## sam6550a

raindownthunda said:


> Not OP but I found the needle applicator “no clean” variety that comes in a syringe to be wayyy easier to direct inside the pins than trying to jab typical flux paste in with other tools. something like this: https://a.co/d/2OLXYai


I use liquid rosin flux and inject it with readily available 1 or 3cc hypodermic syringes and needles. Makes it easy to control the application.


----------



## SuperRoo

sam6550a said:


> Looks good, but, use it with 60/40 lead/tin solder.


Don't use this?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DEUYBY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## sam6550a

SuperRoo said:


> Don't use this?
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DEUYBY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


That is fine, 63/37. What you want to avoid is "lead free" solder.


----------



## Paladin79

khashmi said:


> So Paladin79, are you cool with head-fi members sending you their Melz for repairs, who are not even remotely handy with soldering? Just wanted to know for future reference.


It’s been done before.😜


----------



## ColSaulTigh

So it sounds like I need to order some new flux and solder and redo them.

@Paladin79 , since I'm ordering all new stuff, can you point me to right stuff on Amazon, please?

Thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

ColSaulTigh said:


> So it sounds like I need to order some new flux and solder and redo them.
> 
> @Paladin79 , since I'm ordering all new stuff, can you point me to right stuff on Amazon, please?
> 
> Thanks!


I listed both in post 7544.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Paladin79 said:


> I listed both in post 7544.


Yes, you did, thanks!  Apologies for missing that.


----------



## Paladin79

ColSaulTigh said:


> Yes, you did, thanks!  Apologies for missing that.


Not a problem, glad to help.


----------



## DougD

khashmi said:


> So Paladin79, are you cool with head-fi members sending you their Melz for repairs, who are not even remotely handy with soldering? Just wanted to know for future reference.



That's a lot to ask.

BUT .... for a regional show or local get-together .... a demo by someone who's done tube re-soldering would be FANTABULOUS. 

Bookmark this if it has ever crossed your mind to organize or host such an event.


----------



## Paladin79

DougD said:


> That's a lot to ask.
> 
> BUT .... for a regional show or local get-together .... a demo by someone who's done tube re-soldering would be FANTABULOUS.
> 
> Bookmark this if it has ever crossed your mind to organize or host such an event.


For a while it may be easier to repair them. 😜 In a month I travel to see my son and buy a cargo van load of audio gear to fill out my dream audio system. I will be building more audio racks as well as building mini radial speakers, custom knives, and assorted wood products for local friends. I can work on a few tubes when I get a break in other action. 


I am also working with a friend on a tube amp for tiny speakers.


----------



## Paladin79

raindownthunda said:


> Nice easy to follow write-up and glad to hear this resolved your issues! I have done this exact same process with a few tubes to mostly great success. Flux helps a lot. There is one 1961 Melz 1587 I’ve done this 3 times to and it still has a low level hum, so may not be a one size fits all fix for all tube noise, but definitely worth the effort if an initial pin cleaning doesn’t help.


Russian tubes can be tricky, I have soldered over 100 Melz and maybe 50 Fotons. Put any Russian tube in a stock DarkVoice and you should be prepared for a lot of hum.😉


----------



## khashmi

Paladin79 said:


> For a while it may be easier to repair them. 😜 In a month I travel to see my son and buy a cargo van load of audio gear to fill out my dream audio system. I will be building more audio racks as well as building mini radial speakers, custom knives, and assorted wood products for local friends. I can work on a few tubes when I get a break in other action.
> 
> I am also working with a friend on a tube amp for tiny speakers.


That sounds awesome. Please make sure to keep us updated as you build your dream audio system! Btw, that looks like a Decware Tiny Radial speaker?

Also thanks for acknowledging the repair question. Not in that position yet (thankfully), but happy to have an expert help me out. Ready to pay up for any such service if and when needed.

For DIY folks, I’m not arguing that it’s not easy, I’m just not a DIY guy and rather send it to someone who knows what they are doing. Let’s just hope that day is far off!


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 15, 2022)

khashmi said:


> That sounds awesome. Please make sure to keep us updated as you build your dream audio system! Btw, that looks like a Decware Tiny Radial speaker?
> 
> Also thanks for acknowledging the repair question. Not in that position yet (thankfully), but happy to have an expert help me out. Ready to pay up for any such service if and when needed.
> 
> For DIY folks, I’m not arguing that it’s not easy, I’m just not a DIY guy and rather send it to someone who knows what they are doing. Let’s just hope that day is far off!


That is my take on the Decware mini-radials. Decware is kind enough to offer BOM and diagrams in case you want to DIY a pair. I made some changes in the overall shape and cut a few steps out of their build process, they offer build videos. Someone on another thread asked me if I thought I could make them so I was curious to see if I could match all the angles.

I will say upfront I will be getting a PrimaLuna EVO 400 integrated amp as well as some Sonus Faber speakers plus other goodies.

I try to help other folks and of course I designed my own amp to do a study on 6sn7's and equivalents so I have quite a bit of experience with those.

More photos of my work. I stay busy with small projects.


----------



## bcowen (Aug 15, 2022)

SuperRoo said:


> Don't use this?
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DEUYBY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


That's exactly what I use.  Works great. The .020" diameter is correct as shown in the title (ignore the .031" in the description).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's exactly what I use.  Works great. The .020" diameter is correct as shown in the title (ignore the .031" in the description).


From whom did you learn the technique, hmmmmm?? 😜😜😜


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> From whom did you learn the technique, hmmmmm?? 😜😜😜


Finnegan 😹


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> From whom did you learn the technique, hmmmmm?? 😜😜😜


You mean the technique of buying stuff on Amazon?  Not sure honestly, I just kind of woke up with it one morning.   🤣 

Wait...did you mean the tube pin soldering?  Well from you, of course, master Tom.  But it was only 100 hours on the Fotons, not 200.  After 100 hours everyone knows they don't change much.  🤣🤣


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You mean the technique of buying stuff on Amazon?  Not sure honestly, I just kind of woke up with it one morning.   🤣
> 
> Wait...did you mean the tube pin soldering?  Well from you, of course, master Tom.  But it was only 100 hours on the Fotons, not 200.  After 100 hours everyone knows they don't change much.  🤣🤣


Numbers change with time, cause they are numbers.🤪🤪 When you tell the story you can make up your own.😁


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 15, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Finnegan 😹


Finnegan could have taught him as well but since then he has moved on to knives.

.   

Tubes are so 2021.


----------



## jonathan c (Aug 15, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> From whom did you learn the technique, hmmmmm?? 😜😜😜


Act I, Scene II:  I taught myself the art of the accumulation of Fotons. Call me Hoardini…I make Fotons disappear…


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 15, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> I taught myself the art of the accumulation of Fotons. Call me Hoardini…I make Fotons disappear…


Fotons are what I give away so I do not have to diminish my serious tube stash.🤣 I believe they are a Cowen fetish along with cardboard, go figure.😸😸


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Fotons are what I give away so I do not have to diminish my serious tube stash.🤣 I believe they are a Cowen fetish along with cardboard, go figure.😸😸


Or…the ‘Foton Flow’ is another manifestation of entropy: matter going from a ‘high-energy state’ to a ‘low-energy state’…🤔🤣🤪…


----------



## Galapac

How I have missed this jovial banter from you guys,  you have made my day.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> How I have missed this jovial banter from you guys,  you have made my day.


Feel free to chip in….(I will always remember your milk carton / missing DV picture 🤣)


----------



## Thaddy

Well, my RCA VT-231's that had a channel imbalance have been sent back to the seller who was extremely gracious.  I've decided to swap them out for some Sylvania VT-231's, which should be arriving in the next few days.


----------



## SuperRoo

Great guy to buy tubes from.


----------



## Renexx (Aug 17, 2022)

Thanks for your information Andy.

I can't hear a sonic  difference in older version with solid plate or slotted  plate construction either.
Both have the same resolution , imaging and  overall sound signature.

Sloted plate is a 1578 stamped from 1981 and solid plate is "normal" 6n8s 1956.
I can just tell build quality for 1956 was perfect while 1981 needed the pins to be resoldered and still having contact problems sometimes.


----------



## Paladin79

I own most all types of Melz and even did a blind tube study using the Melz with a large group of people. I do have a preference for the 1954 and 1956. My favorite years for the classic perforated plates are indeed 1954 to 1963. The tubes of that type from the 80's are more mid-forward and I rarely buy them.




A preference for me is the solid shiny black plate shown on the bottom in this photo, above it is the dull grey plate. I have these tubes from the fifties. They have the metal upper support as well as the same micas as the sought after perforated plates. Do you know them?  I have them from  1956, 1957, 1958.

They are not common in my experience. I bought several at bargain prices because they did not have the holes in the plates.  

Another photo..


----------



## Paladin79 (Aug 17, 2022)

As well they should lol. My group tested over 1500 types of 6sn7 equivalents and these are near the top along with the 1954 perforated plate.

I did a lot of early pin solder replacement in Russian tubes and some of the Melz still retained a little noise. Those smooth plates never gave me that issue. To me the early Melz were well balanced across the whole audio spectrum, not so much with the later ones but if you like midrange, they work well for that.

Welcome and I may be buying from you at times. Your prices are reasonable compared to some I have seen. I also like RFT tubes and may be ready to try some 12AX7's soon. I also use a lot of 6n23P Reflector tubes from the mid seventies.  I also run some Svetlana winged C's from the fifties, I have a 1955 that has the anchor logo on the back and more shielding than the standard version.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Did anyone try the new Schiit LISST 6SN7 in any amp?


----------



## Paladin79

ThanatosVI said:


> Did anyone try the new Schiit LISST 6SN7 in any amp?


Jason offered to send me some but then he said they sounded like the original LISSTs and I have those.


----------



## InvisibleInk

ThanatosVI said:


> Did anyone try the new Schiit LISST 6SN7 in any amp?


Blasphemy!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Do  you have any of the 1578's from the 1950's left?


----------



## ARCXENOS (Aug 18, 2022)

Not really a 6SN7, but does anyone have a resource to find out whether a Mullard ECC32* is a russian replica?

A pair was offered from a local reputable shop, but I didn't immediately buy it because I don't know how to identify it, I want to ensure I don't make a mistake


----------



## Tom-s

ARCXENOS said:


> Not really a 6SN7, but does anyone have a resource to find out whether a Mullard ECC32* is a russian replica?
> 
> A pair was offered from a local reputable shop, but I didn't immediately buy it because I don't know how to identify it, I want ensure I don't make a mistake


I’ve never seen a Russian Replica (does anyone have a picture?). 
Just post pictures here from the pair you’re interested in.


----------



## lumdicks

ARCXENOS said:


> Not really a 6SN7, but does anyone have a resource to find out whether a Mullard ECC32* is a russian replica?
> 
> A pair was offered from a local reputable shop, but I didn't immediately buy it because I don't know how to identify it, I want ensure I don't make a mistake


It should be a genuine vintage pair. If the price is ok, go getting them and you will be greatly impressed by the sound produced.


----------



## ARCXENOS

lumdicks said:


> It should be a genuine vintage pair. If the price is ok, go getting them and you will be greatly impressed by the sound produced.


Price is still way beyond the typical 6sn7, but lesser than what others typically ask for online.

If no one has any objections of that photo, I will probably get it!


----------



## lumdicks

ARCXENOS said:


> Price is still way beyond the typical 6sn7, but lesser than what others typically ask for online.
> 
> If no one has any objections of that photo, I will probably get it!



I have a pair of ECC32 and you can compare with the pictures above. The getter may be different depends on year of production.


----------



## TLO

ARCXENOS said:


> Not really a 6SN7, but does anyone have a resource to find out whether a Mullard ECC32* is a russian replica?
> 
> A pair was offered from a local reputable shop, but I didn't immediately buy it because I don't know how to identify it, I want to ensure I don't make a mistake


They look ECC32 to me as well. Just a tip..next time, take picture of the interior, especially the plates as well as the top mica beside the front picture of the whole tube. It will help a lot for verification. Lastly, in general, Mullard ECC31 n ECC32 has the following getter ranging from the oldest to the latest as such...
Pan / Tray -> D -> Rectangle


----------



## ARCXENOS

TLO said:


> They look ECC32 to me as well. Just a tip..next time, take picture of the interior, especially the plates as well as the top mica beside the front picture of the whole tube. It will help a lot for verification. Lastly, in general, Mullard ECC31 n ECC32 has the following getter ranging from the oldest to the latest as such...
> Pan / Tray -> D -> Rectangle


I will take note of that, thank you for your expertise.

The seller also sent me the date codes of 1185 EO and GO


----------



## JTbbb

My understanding is that the Russian copy’s have a shiny plastic base, and the domed top is a little larger than genuine tubes. Probably difficult to spot, especially in photos.


----------



## TLO

ARCXENOS said:


> I will take note of that, thank you for your expertise.
> 
> The seller also sent me the date codes of 1185 EO and GO


1185 is the early code for ECC32
2 or 3 characters date code (pre 1960), 4 characters (post 1960)
A - Jan, B - Feb......
0 - 1950, 1 - 1951...
Later code for ECC32 is EN*, * is the change code
In case anyone is wondering, not all ECC31 or ECC32 are made in Blackburn, I have ECC31s from Mitcham (D) as well as Blackburn (DA). Also, I have seen ECC32 from Blackburn and Mitcham.


----------



## paradoxper

ColSaulTigh said:


> Do  you have any of the 1578's from the 1950's left?


I have quite a lot and may be shifting from 6SN7 with a custom 300B amp.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> I have quite a lot and may be shifting from 6SN7 with a custom 300B amp.


You know how to get my attention!  PM me when you're ready, please.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Thank you guys for the help, these sound incredible.

There is still a shipment from Ukraine for a pair of youknowwhat, but I think I am done with driver tube rolling for now, hopefully I won't annoy anyone else with my newbie questions again in this thread for abit (unless god forbid that pair of 1578 needs some resoldering...keeping my fingers crossed). Maybe 1 pair of 300b next.

Thanks to everyone for the guidance over the past few weeks!


----------



## JTbbb

ARCXENOS said:


> Thank you guys for the help, these sound incredible.
> 
> There is still a shipment from Ukraine for a pair of youknowwhat, but I think I am done with driver tube rolling for now, hopefully I won't annoy anyone else with my newbie questions again in this thread for abit (unless god forbid that pair of 1578 needs some resoldering...keeping my fingers crossed). Maybe 1 pair of 300b next.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the guidance over the past few weeks!


They look great! And as you have found out, sound amazing.


----------



## lumdicks (Aug 19, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Thank you guys for the help, these sound incredible.
> 
> There is still a shipment from Ukraine for a pair of youknowwhat, but I think I am done with driver tube rolling for now, hopefully I won't annoy anyone else with my newbie questions again in this thread for abit (unless god forbid that pair of 1578 needs some resoldering...keeping my fingers crossed). Maybe 1 pair of 300b next.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the guidance over the past few weeks!


Congrats! Remind me it's time to switch the B65 to ECC32 on my WA22 again!


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 20, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> I have quite a lot and may be shifting from 6SN7 with a custom 300B amp.


I would definitely be interested in helping you with the transition when you sell of your MELZ 1578, please give us a heads up here or PM me if you would be so kind!


----------



## Isaacc7

Got the Visseaux 11n7 in and... I'm having the same problem I do with the ecc31. Weird, phasey sound with an exaggerated midrange. My amp just does not like those tubes. It bums me out cause people seem to love them. Fingers crossed, my amp coming later in the year won't have the same problem.


----------



## fuhransahis

Hey folks, does anyone have any experience with the seller oak-man1 on eBay? I'm a noob to buying tubes on eBay and don't have any testing equipment to ensure the tubes don't make my amp explode 😜

Any help is appreciated


----------



## David222

fuhransahis said:


> Hey folks, does anyone have any experience with the seller oak-man1 on eBay? I'm a noob to buying tubes on eBay and don't have any testing equipment to ensure the tubes don't make my amp explode 😜
> 
> Any help is appreciated



Not familiar with oak-man maybe others are  - curious what you might be looking for if you don't mind sharing a bit more ?


----------



## Isaacc7

fuhransahis said:


> Hey folks, does anyone have any experience with the seller oak-man1 on eBay? I'm a noob to buying tubes on eBay and don't have any testing equipment to ensure the tubes don't make my amp explode 😜
> 
> Any help is appreciated


Doesn't look like a tube seller. Rather a guy that sells tubes along with a bunch of other stuff. Dunno what that means for his tubes.


----------



## chef8489

Well after several years I am back in the game. I picked up a Lyr 3 again and will be looking for 5sn7 and the like tubes again. really wish I didnt sell my tubes when I sold my lyr 3 several years ago as tubes seem to have skyrocketed.


----------



## Paladin79

chef8489 said:


> Well after several years I am back in the game. I picked up a Lyr 3 again and will be looking for 5sn7 and the like tubes again. really wish I didnt sell my tubes when I sold my lyr 3 several years ago as tubes seem to have skyrocketed.


Welcome back and good luck finding tubes, I stick to Melz for the most part and they are certainly expensive right now if you can find the better ones.


----------



## fuhransahis (Aug 23, 2022)

David222 said:


> Not familiar with oak-man maybe others are  - curious what you might be looking for if you don't mind sharing a bit more ?


Thanks! Have been looking for a pair of Tung Sol 5998 tubes, seemed like a good price at $395/pair from him...


Isaacc7 said:


> Doesn't look like a tube seller. Rather a guy that sells tubes along with a bunch of other stuff. Dunno what that means for his tubes.


... but also based on this it doesn't inspire much confidence that he's got these tubes and then a bunch of random other stuff.

I know this is the 6SN7 thread but it might as well be the general Tube Guru thread from what I've gathered


----------



## David222

fuhransahis said:


> Thanks! Have been looking for a pair of Tung Sol 5998 tubes, seemed like a good price at $395/pair from him...
> 
> ... but also based on this it doesn't inspire much confidence that he's got these tubes and then a bunch of random other stuff.
> 
> I know this is the 6SN7 thread but it might as well be the general Tube Guru thread from what I've gathered



Interesting - so, just my opinion - I'd avoid ebay when hunting (semi) harder to obtain valves like  Tung Sol 5998 - unless you have purchased before from seller and have some level of confidence in the transaction.  If you look back in this thread - you will see some ebay sellers names (good and bad). 

Perhaps consider the classifieds here on Head-Fi --> here and here. Note: I do not know either sellers and one listing clearly notes an issue with the base of one of the tubes - but at minimum you have some transparency in what you are purchasing. Maybe inquire if the guy selling (bundled) with the WA22 would sell just the tubes to you?

I am sure others on here will have additional thoughts


----------



## Thaddy

David222 said:


> Interesting - so, just my opinion - I'd avoid ebay when hunting (semi) harder to obtain valves like  Tung Sol 5998 - unless you have purchased before from seller and have some level of confidence in the transaction.  If you look back in this thread - you will see some ebay sellers names (good and bad).
> 
> Perhaps consider the classifieds here on Head-Fi --> here and here. Note: I do not know either sellers and one listing clearly notes an issue with the base of one of the tubes - but at minimum you have some transparency in what you are purchasing. Maybe inquire if the guy selling (bundled) with the WA22 would sell just the tubes to you?
> 
> I am sure others on here will have additional thoughts


This is good advice for purchasing those harder-to-get tubes.  My few pairs of 5998's and other rare tubes have come from a very trusted person who I've purchased from many many times.  More common tubes like RCA gray glass 6SN7's I'll get from eBay.


----------



## paradoxper (Aug 23, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> You know how to get my attention!  PM me when you're ready, please.


PM. Will cover other messages taken. Will sell six pairs. These were provided courtesy of @AndriiUkraine


----------



## ARCXENOS

Package came unexpectedly quick from Ukraine @AndriiUkraine

Plugged them in, and they were dead quiet on the HD600, no hum, buzz or microphony 5 hours in. I am hoping these lasts because they do indeed, sound good. Only issue I think I have is that one of the tubes don't light up at the bottom, but apart from that there is no channel imbalance and both appears to be sounding the same as much as I can tell. Maybe different construction?

I am praying these don't develop @ColSaulTigh 's "death squeals".


----------



## ARCXENOS

Hopefully they have no other issues and may they last long


----------



## TLO

ARCXENOS said:


> Hopefully they have no other issues and may they last long


Try resoldering the two heater pins, 7 and 8, if you have problem.


----------



## ARCXENOS

TLO said:


> Try resoldering the two heater pins, 7 and 8, if you have problem.


Thank you, I will keep note of that if anything goes wrong, which I hope it maintains its current state!


----------



## JTbbb

I don’t think the tube would work if the heater was not working? I suppose it’s getting hot?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I've bought twice from Andi - he's legit!  Highly recommended!


----------



## bcowen

ARCXENOS said:


> Package came unexpectedly quick from Ukraine @AndriiUkraine
> 
> Plugged them in, and they were dead quiet on the HD600, no hum, buzz or microphony 5 hours in. I am hoping these lasts because they do indeed, sound good. Only issue I think I have is that one of the tubes don't light up at the bottom, but apart from that there is no channel imbalance and both appears to be sounding the same as much as I can tell. Maybe different construction?
> 
> I am praying these don't develop @ColSaulTigh 's "death squeals".


Nice!!


----------



## Tom-s

ARCXENOS said:


> Package came unexpectedly quick from Ukraine @AndriiUkraine
> 
> Plugged them in, and they were dead quiet on the HD600, no hum, buzz or microphony 5 hours in. I am hoping these lasts because they do indeed, sound good. Only issue I think I have is that one of the tubes don't light up at the bottom, but apart from that there is no channel imbalance and both appears to be sounding the same as much as I can tell. Maybe different construction?
> 
> I am praying these don't develop @ColSaulTigh 's "death squeals".


Just a word on heaters.
What you visually see from the heaters. Above or below the cathode sleeve they are placed in. Has absolutely nothing to do with their functioning. It’s a result of the fact these tubes were assembled with some tolerance on how the heaters should be positioned in their sleeves. With long wires to the glass stem (that part inside the tube that seals the wires) the heaters may stick out a little higher and be invisible at the bottom of the anode plates as a result. With shorter wire lengths to the stem the heaters sit lower compared to the other components and may be visible below the anode when lit. 
There’s nothing to worry about. If the tubes work the heaters are lit. With heating cathode sleeves in indirectly heated tubes they’re on or off. 
You’ll be fine with this pair.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Aug 28, 2022)

I have been cycling through the Sylvania “Bad Boy” 12sn7, Tungsol BGRP 12sn7, and the 14af7 as input tube in my amp. I really like all three.

Like all American loctal tubes, the 14af7 was made by Sylvania. I have two different versions, one with grey plates labeled Tungsol and a black plate labeled RCA. I much prefer the grey plate but with a sample of one it’s hard to know if the one I have is representative or not. Earlier in this monster thread someone pointed out that the 12ah7 is the octal equivalent (Not pin compatible with the 6sn7 though). Looking at all the different versions on eBay I think I can safely say that those are also all made by Sylvania Regardless of the branding. All have exactly the same construction, either black or grey plates and circular or rectangular mica. The older tubes look like old Sylvania 6sn7 with the silvering on the bottom. I plan on getting a handful of the 14af7 and seeing if the grey vs black plate sound is real. They are cheap enough I don’t mind experimenting.


----------



## Isaacc7

I know this is the 6sn7 thread but thought I'd make use of the brain trust here about 6sl7. Is there a comparatively well regarded Melz 6sl7 or other Russian version? Also, why didn't the Soviets make 12v tubes? Those are my usual go to for cheaper versions.

Come to think about it, are there European version of the 6sl7 or 12sl7 you would recommend?


----------



## Paladin79

Isaacc7 said:


> I know this is the 6sn7 thread but thought I'd make use of the brain trust here about 6sl7. Is there a comparatively well regarded Melz 6sl7 or other Russian version? Also, why didn't the Soviets make 12v tubes? Those are my usual go to for cheaper versions.
> 
> Come to think about it, are there European version of the 6sl7 or 12sl7 you would recommend?


The Melz version of the 6sl7 is also called the 1579.

Pretty good tubes but this price is crazy. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1836296086...t4T0com1+sG01xh8nWn47qkMelGl|tkp:BFBM-qj1neFg


----------



## Isaacc7

Come to think of it, did the Soviets make any tubes like the 6sn7 but at other voltages at all? 4v? 11v? 8v? etc.


----------



## TLO (Sep 5, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I know this is the 6sn7 thread but thought I'd make use of the brain trust here about 6sl7. Is there a comparatively well regarded Melz 6sl7 or other Russian version? Also, why didn't the Soviets make 12v tubes? Those are my usual go to for cheaper versions.
> 
> Come to think about it, are there European version of the 6sl7 or 12sl7 you would recommend?


Try Mullard ECC35, very pricey though.


----------



## rawheadjim

Since my Freya+ manual says you can use 6SL7's as well as 6SN7's, I've tried a few.  The price for many 6SL7's seems to be 1/2 or less than the price for similar 6SN7's, I don't know enough about the super high end tubes like Melz or Mullards to try yet.  The ones I've tried so far are red base CBS, Tung Sol, Ken-Rad, and a few other 6SL7's.  They are definitely interesting, some sounded really great, and for the price were reasonable enough to experiment with.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> Try Mullard ECC35, very pricey though.


Yeah, those are more than I'm willing to spend. Plus, I haven't had any luck with ecc31 (with adapter) in my current amp so I'm gun shy with that series of tubes.


----------



## jbua5150

rawheadjim said:


> Since my Freya+ manual says you can use 6SL7's as well as 6SN7's, I've tried a few.  The price for many 6SL7's seems to be 1/2 or less than the price for similar 6SN7's, I don't know enough about the super high end tubes like Melz or Mullards to try yet.  The ones I've tried so far are red base CBS, Tung Sol, Ken-Rad, and a few other 6SL7's.  They are definitely interesting, some sounded really great, and for the price were reasonable enough to experiment with.


Hmm. I have many 6SL7, maybe I should roll some into the Freya+. 
Do you have a preferred brand in your Freya+?


----------



## Isaacc7

I tried some Sylvania JAN 6sl7 in my Freya+ and got some weird popping and noise issues. They are fine in my amp. The 6sl7 has a lot more gain so may not work well in every system.


----------



## jbua5150

Isaacc7 said:


> I tried some Sylvania JAN 6sl7 in my Freya+ and got some weird popping and noise issues. They are fine in my amp. The 6sl7 has a lot more gain so may not work well in every system.


This is exactly what happened when I tried some 6C8G (very close to the same as 6SL7) in my Freya+.  Weird pops when the volume pot was raised.  
That’s why I’ve not tried another 6SL7 or variants of them since.


----------



## chef8489

What tubes have you guys found to show off the best tube glow of the 6sn7 and equivalents.?


----------



## u2u2

chef8489 said:


> What tubes have you guys found to show off the best tube glow of the 6sn7 and equivalents.?


From my modest collection Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Mouse Ears.


----------



## JTbbb

Any ideas as to what dates these might be, on these CBS brown bases?


----------



## Isaacc7

7N7 Mania!

Where to start... Let's talk bout 7N7 tubes in general. They are a direct equivalent to the 6sn7 but with the loctal base as we all know. What a lot of people don't know is that all US made loctals were made by Sylvania with the very rare exception of some NU made round plate 7N7. Since they were made by Sylvania you'll find all the different versions of Sylvania 6sn7 made over they years in the 7N7 with what I thought was one exception. You'll see tall bottles, short bottles, parallel plates, and angled plates. The lettering on the 7N7 is always on the top unlike the earliest Sylvania 6sn7 but you will see both neat top lettering and the so called chrome domes with the silvering extending down most of the sides in both long and short bottles. The one exception I thought existed was the early metal based 6sn7w with the extra support rod, I had never seen a 7n7 with that. Someone on here said they had one but they never posted a picture so I assumed they had been mistaken. Interestingly, the 12v of the 7N7, the 14n7, always has a copper support rod. I thought that maybe an early 14n7 would be equivalent to the very expensive 6sn7w because it shared that same construction detail. 

That was a long intro, here's what happened just yesterday. I had long used a tall bottle 7N7 as one of my go-to input tubes in my amp. Once I figured out that the tall bottle 7n7 with the parallel plates sounded noticeably better I got in touch with a tube vendor and ordered... well, more than a few lol. Satisfied that I had enough to last I put them in my stash and didn't think about them again. I have been cycling through a lot of different tubes recently. I've been exploring 12j5gt in my preamp and fancy 12sn7 tubes like the "bad boys" and the TSRP in my amp. On a whim I remembered my idea of using a tall 14n7, I knew I had at least one. Dug one up, popped it in and my jaw hit the floor! It had just as much top and bottom extension as the bad boy but had a richer midrange and more depth and clarity. Wow...

Then I realized I hadn't listened to the tall 7n7 with these particular output tubes (Cossor 807 ceramic base) so maybe it was the same tube but different voltage? Fished it out and took a close look and what did I see?





That is clearly an extra support rod! I not only had one, I had been listening to it all along! Not only was the "myth" confirmed I had been extolling its virtues lol. It doesn't look like a copper rod but it is still there. Here's the tall 14n7 as a comparison there are other differences:




The plates, control rod, and the micas are all different, totally different tubes. And they do sound different, the edge goes to the 14n7 so far but I need to do more listening. I wish I had a 6sn7w metal base to compare!

But wait, does that mean all of the tall 7N7 tubes have the rod? I dug through my many examples and... no. None of my other tubes have the rod. I did find some interesting variations though. I'll show those in another post.


----------



## Isaacc7

So while examining my, uh, extensive 7N7 collection I dug up a few more things that I didn't recognize as Sylvania 6sn7. First of all here are some mystery 7N7, I've never seen a 6sn7 like this, sylvania or no:





It has a neat, sharp cutoff silvering at the top and a completely opaque grey glass body. I have no idea what kind of construction it has inside. The stuff I can see looks like it is under the mica. I'll pop it in at some point to compare it to the run of the mill 7N7. Oh, the typical tall 7n7 looks like this:







When I first saw the NU branding I thought maybe I had one of the elusive round plate 7N7 tubes but alas, it is just the regular parallel plate version. Interestingly, it has another code on the glass. Loctals seemingly never have any date or manufacturer codes. Could that be a date code? 1951 maybe?

My real excitement was finding these:




Those are round plates! Woo! Turns out I have 3 of them. I'm not sure if they'll actually sound any better than the others but I'm happy just to have them. I'll spend the next couple of weeks trying the different variations out and report back.


----------



## paradoxper

Tying up loose ends begins with the CryoTone 6SN7.


----------



## Isaacc7

paradoxper said:


> Tying up loose ends begins with the CryoTone 6SN7.


Which Supratek do you have? I love my Cabernet!


----------



## khashmi

Interested in your thoughts on the Cryotone compared to your reference.


paradoxper said:


> Tying up loose ends begins with the CryoTone 6SN7.


----------



## triod750

I have one Sylvania JAN 7N7 that arrived in a sealed box "S.C. Order No. 29360-PhILA-43 Sylvania Electric Products INC.
Acceptance Date: 9-27-432"  The innards  you can see in this tube look exactly like my 6SN7A/ 6SN7W but for the support rod. To my ears they sound exactly the same. I don't have a photo of the 7N7 so can't provide one but my 6SN7A/W  is this:




(A repair is made on the metal band with some wire and then beautified).
The hole for the support rod is left empty in the bottom mica of the 7N7. That mica has the same shape as the 6SN7A (on top of glass) 6SN7W tube. The 7N7 top mica has the same shape and the spokes  through it can be seen thanks to the lower loctal socket.


----------



## Isaacc7

Yeah, the 14n7 smokes the tall 7N7 with the support rod. At least this particular 7N7, I only have the one. This 14N7 has maybe 4 hours on it too vs probably 100 on the 7N7.  The 14N7 is cleaner, richer, and more extended.


----------



## Isaacc7

paradoxper said:


> Tying up loose ends begins with the CryoTone 6SN7.


I have never heard of this brand before. A quick search pin Audio Karma and DiyAudio doesn't bring up anything either. Are they Russian?


----------



## paradoxper

khashmi said:


> Interested in your thoughts on the Cryotone compared to your reference.


They are surprisingly good upon first blush.


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> I have one Sylvania JAN 7N7 that arrived in a sealed box "S.C. Order No. 29360-PhILA-43 Sylvania Electric Products INC.
> Acceptance Date: 9-27-432"  The innards  you can see in this tube look exactly like my 6SN7A/ 6SN7W but for the support rod. To my ears they sound exactly the same. I don't have a photo of the 7N7 so can't provide one but my 6SN7A/W  is this:
> 
> (A repair is made on the metal band with some wire and then beautified).
> The hole for the support rod is left empty in the bottom mica of the 7N7. That mica has the same shape as the 6SN7A (on top of glass) 6SN7W tube. The 7N7 top mica has the same shape and the spokes  through it can be seen thanks to the lower loctal socket.


So your metal 6sn7w doesn't have the support rod? I thought they all did. And that 6sn7aw has one? I thought only the metal based ones had them. I'm even worse informed than I thought lol.


----------



## triod750

My metal 6SN7W has the support rod. It also has 6SN7A etched on top of the glass. The 7N7 has a hole in the bottom mica where the 6SN7W has the support rod but it has no support rod.


----------



## paradoxper

Isaacc7 said:


> Which Supratek do you have? I love my Cabernet!


Cabernet DHT with Elrog 300B, it is something else.

The CryoTone are from Wathen.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Isaacc7 said:


> Yeah, the 14n7 smokes the tall 7N7 with the support rod. At least this particular 7N7, I only have the one. This 14N7 has maybe 4 hours on it too vs probably 100 on the 7N7.  The 14N7 is cleaner, richer, and more extended.


Curious - is the 14n7 a direct replacement (with adapter) for a 7N7 (or 6SN7, for that matter)?


----------



## Isaacc7

ColSaulTigh said:


> Curious - is the 14n7 a direct replacement (with adapter) for a 7N7 (or 6SN7, for that matter)?


The 14N7 is 12.6v and the 7N7 is 6.3v. They are analogous to the 12sn7 and 6sn7. A normal adapter won't help. I bought an external power supply that allows me to use different voltage tubes in my amp. That's how I'm using the 12v tube. My preamp can switch between 6v and 12v natively.


----------



## Isaacc7

paradoxper said:


> Cabernet DHT with Elrog 300B, it is something else.
> 
> The CryoTone are from Wathen.


Yeah, saw the tubes on the Wathen site but I'm wondering who is making the tubes for them.


----------



## paradoxper

Isaacc7 said:


> Yeah, saw the tubes on the Wathen site but I'm wondering who is making the tubes for them.


My understanding is they're bog OEM. Steve Deckert provides the most coverage for these on the Decware forum.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> So while examining my, uh, extensive 7N7 collection I dug up a few more things that I didn't recognize as Sylvania 6sn7. First of all here are some mystery 7N7, I've never seen a 6sn7 like this, sylvania or no:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dying to know how those round plates sound.  I've haven't run across one yet.

I have one of the smoked glass varieties.  Most interestingly, it's marked as a 7F7 on both the tube and the box, but it's a 7N7 as verified in my tester.  Guess it was a Friday tube.   🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

ColSaulTigh said:


> Curious - is the 14n7 a direct replacement (with adapter) for a 7N7 (or 6SN7, for that matter)?


Incidentally, I have menti


bcowen said:


> Dying to know how those round plates sound.  I've haven't run across one yet.
> 
> I have one of the smoked glass varieties.  Most interestingly, it's marked as a 7F7 on both the tube and the box, but it's a 7N7 as verified in my tester.  Guess it was a Friday tube.   🤣


I've got some 14n7 with a similar envelope look. They didn't sound very good though lol.


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> Dying to know how those round plates sound.  I've haven't run across one yet.
> 
> I have one of the smoked glass varieties.  Most interestingly, it's marked as a 7F7 on both the tube and the box, but it's a 7N7 as verified in my tester.  Guess it was a Friday tube.   🤣


Someone on here said that the 7N7 round plate sound like the NU round plate 6f8g. That's a tube that has given me fits. Whenever I try it I get the sense that it is a quality tube, good bass, imaging etc. but it hasn't gelled with any other tube combo.


----------



## JTbbb

Isaacc7 said:


> So your metal 6sn7w doesn't have the support rod? I thought they all did. And that 6sn7aw has one? I thought only the metal based ones had them. I'm even worse informed than I thought lol.


OK, not the best of pics. But do I see a metal support rod in these non metal based? I think so.


----------



## triod750

JTbbb said:


> OK, not the best of pics. But do I see a metal support rod in these non metal based? I think so.


Yes, they have a metal support rod, mine too.


----------



## Isaacc7

JTbbb said:


> OK, not the best of pics. But do I see a metal support rod in these non metal based? I think so.


They do indeed. Interestingly, at least to me, they seem to have the same support rod as my 7N7 but not the copper one like the metal base 6sn7w and 14n7. Dunno where I got the idea that only the metal base 6sn7w had a support rod.


----------



## Renexx

Isaacc7 said:


> They do indeed. Interestingly, at least to me, they seem to have the same support rod as my 7N7 but not the copper one like the metal base 6sn7w and 14n7. Dunno where I got the idea that only the metal base 6sn7w had a support rod.


Those are the successor of the Sylvania 6sn7 metal base. First came black base tall bottle and then later in time black base short bottle. Same internal construction.


----------



## whirlwind

JTbbb said:


> OK, not the best of pics. But do I see a metal support rod in these non metal based? I think so.


Nice tubes


----------



## JTbbb

Renexx said:


> Those are the successor of the Sylvania 6sn7 metal base. First came black base tall bottle and then later in time black base short bottle. Same internal construction.


I wonder when Sylvania started production of the 6sn7W? Mine are the short bottle dated April ‘45


----------



## Renexx

JTbbb said:


> I wonder when Sylvania started production of the 6sn7W? Mine are the short bottle dated April ‘45


My pairs of Metal and black base all are 1945. I have another pair of commercial rebranded metal base dated 1947.
Actually i thought they are very early 40s but they are not. Sylvania vt-99 6f8g should have an earlier vintage as  predecessor.


----------



## JTbbb

Are these January and February ‘44




Or are they April ‘44


----------



## Renexx (Sep 7, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Are these January and February ‘44
> 
> 
> Or are they April ‘44


Both January 1944. A4 means 1st and 2nd week, b4 3rd and 4th week.

Interestingly the etched date code on the glass seems to be earlier than 4D code on the base. Not all have that date code on the base.


----------



## Isaacc7

I wish there were date codes on the loctal tubes. Would be handy.


----------



## Isaacc7

Once again I've been shown to be a moron. If I had bothered to look at the tubes I actually own I might have noticed...




That is one of my brown base Sylvania 6sn7w and yup, there's the rod! Was this made in 42?


----------



## triod750

Is this a W or a WGT?
You are just a normal person and less of a nerd.


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> Is this a W or a WGT?
> You are just a normal person and less of a nerd.


It is a WGT. Doing a little investigation this was probably made in the 60s or 70s I think. How to decipher the date code though?


----------



## nykobing

Isaacc7 said:


> It is a WGT. Doing a little investigation this was probably made in the 60s or 70s I think. How to decipher the date code though?



42nd week of the year 1952.


----------



## TLO (Sep 16, 2022)

Deleted


----------



## chef8489

TLO said:


> My apology for the off-topic but does anyone have experiences with tubedepot? Do you have good or bad experiences with them?
> I ask becos it seems that many had good experiences and recommended them. Quite the contrary, I had really unpleasant experience with them not once but twice. Yeah, I know. Shame on me for making the mistake to deal with them again on a second purchase.
> 
> Have placed an order for some Belton sockets on the 31 Aug, payment went through and was deducted from my bank account on the 2nd Sep. Have not received any order confirmation or shipping advise as of today. Have sent them an email on 2nd Sep asking for advise, no reply as of today.
> ...


It was a holiday weekend her in the usa. Usually a pretty long weekend, so that might have had something to do with it. The 2nd to the 5th is usually the holiday for small business.


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> Is this a W or a WGT?
> You are just a normal person and less of a nerd.


This is what pains me, I am a HUGE tube nerd. I've been reading and playing with them for 15 years. Feel like I've got a good handle on manufacturers, history, types, etc. That's why I feel so foolish about this. I've been buying and talking about Sylvania tubes for well over a decade. It's good to be humbled from time to time lol.


----------



## Isaacc7

paradoxper said:


> Cabernet DHT with Elrog 300B, it is something else.
> 
> The CryoTone are from Wathen.


I thought hard about getting the Cabernet with the 300b. Decided that I am such an inveterate tube roller I would quickly bankrupt myself trying different 300b versions lol. I ended up spending the same amount though. I got mine with a switch that allows me to use either a 6sn7 or 12sn7. The extra price made me wince but I feel like its been a great investment seeing how expensive 6sn7 tubes have become.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Sep 8, 2022)

I've started the great 7N7 listening test. First off I realized that I hadn't been listening to a generic tall bottle 7N7 all this time but one built like the 6sn7w. So I put one of the regular tall bottle 7N7 in. First impressions of a brand new NOS tube is that it sounds very similar to the well broken in one with the support rod. I think it actually is a little smoother through the mids and possibly has more extended highs. The new 14N7 is still the best sounding one even not broken in. It is extended at both ends and has a bell like clarity that allows a deeper look into the soundstage. I think the regular 7N7 could get closer to it with some time though. In any case, it is a fine sounding tube already and I think it will end up opening up to be similar to the other tall 7N7. I don't need to spend more time on it right now.

Next up is the completely opaque 7N7 with the GE label. My initial impression is that it was... darker than the clear 7N7. This is one of the things I hate most about audiophile listening tests, our brains are so easy to influence! A dark tube leads to darker sound. Months ago I tried some metal 6f6 tubes and I thought they sounded metallic. Really Isaac? _Really?_ I know my brain and I simply do not trust it when it comes to being influenced by what I see and the amount of money I spent on it. That does make me skeptical of tweaks like cables and rectifiers so I guess I should be thankful for the amount of money that has save me lol.

Anyway... This opaque 7N7 sounds just like a similarly clad 14n7 I tried a while ago. What made me think it was "dark" is the more closed in high frequencies. That might get better with time, maybe. More concerning is the grain that adds a gritty texture to the whole sound but is most easily heard through the mids. Maybe it's a low level noise? In any case, details suffer and in combination with the closed in top end it really isn't comparing well to the other tubes. I get the impression that these are fairly early tubes so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. The trouble is that I don't really have any interest in waiting to see if these things blossom when I could be listening to far better tubes, even ones that are barely broken in. My listening time is precious, think I'm ending the experiment on these. On to the round plates!


----------



## triod750

Isaacc7 said:


> This is what pains me, I am a HUGE tube nerd. I've been reading and playing with them for 15 years. Feel like I've got a good handle on manufacturers, history, types, etc. That's why I feel so foolish about this. I've been buying and talking about Sylvania tubes for well over a decade. It's good to be humbled from time to time lol.


So you must be an amateur nerd then?


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> So you must be an amateur nerd then?


You guys are getting paid? I gotta get in on that!


----------



## triod750

Isaacc7 said:


> You guys are getting paid? I gotta get in on that!


You speaking to me? Huh?

Even if I try hard I will be far behind you and most of the other guys. Nobody pays me and I have no money to buy expensive tubes. I have some tubes, bought 20+ years ago that are expensive today. To me they are just the same tubes they have always been. But there are some knowledgeable people around, always willing to share some of their knowledge.
So I have no money and almost no knowledge but I am happy when listening to the tone from proper tube combinations. The tone always comes first. Speed and such far behind. My way to be a nerd.


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> You speaking to me? Huh?
> 
> Even if I try hard I will be far behind you and most of the other guys. Nobody pays me and I have no money to buy expensive tubes. I have some tubes, bought 20+ years ago that are expensive today. To me they are just the same tubes they have always been. But there are some knowledgeable people around, always willing to share some of their knowledge.
> So I have no money and almost no knowledge but I am happy when listening to the tone from proper tube combinations. The tone always comes first. Speed and such far behind. My way to be a nerd.


Sorry, it was a memey response to being called not a professional. It implied that some people are. Anyway, Humor explained is failed humor lol. 

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-guys-are-getting-paid


----------



## Hiker816

Isaacc7 said:


> Sorry, it was a memey response to being called not a professional. It implied that some people are. Anyway, Humor explained is failed humor lol.
> 
> https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-guys-are-getting-paid


FWIW, I got it and thought it was hilarious!


----------



## triod750

Isaacc7 said:


> Sorry, it was a memey response to being called not a professional. It implied that some people are. Anyway, Humor explained is failed humor lol.
> 
> https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-guys-are-getting-paid


I took it as humor. Sorry for not making this clear.


----------



## chef8489

So are the 6H7C equivalents of 6sn7 like the 68hc are?
​


----------



## SuperRoo

I finally screwed up my courage and resoldered one of the Melz 1578. The once noisy tube is now totally quiet. Fingers crossed. 
Thanks Paladin79 for the excellent instructions.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-139#post-14881488
I used this solder & flux
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-503#post-17096942
It was a great suggestion practicing before working on a good tube. If you need a throw away tube to practice on PM me.
Now onto finishing breaking them in.


----------



## toddc2

SuperRoo said:


> I finally screwed up my courage and resoldered one of the Melz 1578. The once noisy tube is now totally quiet. Fingers crossed.
> Thanks Paladin79 for the excellent instructions.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/page-139#post-14881488
> I used this solder & flux
> ...


Glad to hear this worked out!


----------



## Isaacc7

The round plate 7N7 tubes are indeed a dead ringer for the NU 6f8g. I think I have figured out why I can't make them work well in my system. I think they sound soft, at least they are softer sounding than the various 6sn7 and other 7N7 I have tried. They lack detail and the top end isn't exactly subdued, but it doesn't have the extension or sparkle or however else you might want to phrase it. I also am not getting as much bass out them. I do think these tubes could be useful if your system leans towards brightness or just kind of nervousness like some Lowther single driver speakers are. If you like trying different headphones they might be a handy flavor to keep on hand. Here in speaker land I don't change those very often. I'll keep them around and see how they fare in the new amp. For now they go into the provisional pile. 

I'm back to the normal tall 7N7. Will probably stick with those for the next week or so and see if they change much. Using the GE 6bg6ga as outputs. Bass galore, very "active" sounding. Not as clear or open as my now regular Cossor 807 but quite enjoyable.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> So are the 6H7C equivalents of 6sn7 like the 68hc are?
> ​


No.  The 6H7C (6N7S) is closer to a 6N7. Compared to a 6SN7, it has higher heater current, higher amplification factor, and different pinout (so an adapter would be required).


----------



## Ranger Ron

Isaacc7 said:


> The round plate 7N7 tubes are indeed a dead ringer for the NU 6f8g. I think I have figured out why I can't make them work well in my system. I think they sound soft, at least they are softer sounding than the various 6sn7 and other 7N7 I have tried. They lack detail and the top end isn't exactly subdued, but it doesn't have the extension or sparkle or however else you might want to phrase it. I also am not getting as much bass out them. I do think these tubes could be useful if your system leans towards brightness or just kind of nervousness like some Lowther single driver speakers are. If you like trying different headphones they might be a handy flavor to keep on hand. Here in speaker land I don't change those very often. I'll keep them around and see how they fare in the new amp. For now they go into the provisional pile.
> 
> I'm back to the normal tall 7N7. Will probably stick with those for the next week or so and see if they change much. Using the GE 6bg6ga as outputs. Bass galore, very "active" sounding. Not as clear or open as my now regular Cossor 807 but quite enjoyable.


Just goes to show again how system dependent tubes can be.  In my experience with the NU 6F8G round plates they are everything but subdued.


----------



## Ranger Ron

I’ve also had the most troubles with the NU 6F8G.  Some circuits they sound absolutely glorious, others just ok, and a few they just refused to work in.


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> No.  The 6H7C (6N7S) is closer to a 6N7. Compared to a 6SN7, it has higher heater current, higher amplification factor, and different pinout (so an adapter would be required).


If the same construction as 6N7 they also have common cathode which can be important to be aware of in some applications.


----------



## jbua5150 (Sep 10, 2022)

Speaking of NU 6F8G, there are a couple pairs on eBay for a reasonable price.  I have no prior business dealing with the seller, so proceed with caution.  I purchased 2 pairs myself(seller accepted my reasonable offer)that I will test before I install into my amps. Fingers Crossed 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165659928332?hash=item269219e70c:g:uOkAAOSwZtRjFUi0&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoLeiYC+PZgsKCckgdQRGo22VE0wClHpTJlNvZ46IPrLOQmyZLDhT+3uaPHILog+RBFF9DXyizWAmd0QKMr0YqlOW8xN+lruw9a2dwdVhmvg1hPPJPi1ONmyhHPp4MnKv+hpoDZirgO7j0HVhRJ2ipsIz86abCIqTbnqQzmF8ItXpFq37shMU6ryxn8JA0iQWezY0nbGxIte7Nvum18i7gac=|tkp:Bk9SR9rYzI7lYA

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165659927903?hash=item269219e55f:g:8F4AAOSwQHZjFUfD&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoLY43RPCE6tZKIGO4oQoBO5GHDo20Gfv6NXSIE4tO5S+1PKKRRq8q9cY+/8YQAC/DU6Ta/tTxifAwfyPwcFJwBjrFM8eJ6dzKeBFv9WvDD8nKAMaovZB90YhJx7Mhth3AHfhQb08MtRNFBtJ1P5sA322neDKvhn5NyZELwcvgWCLvxEkXiR1mTIohXJ77cRXMVznrUuXXAdGVSvJ+xXszDc=|tkp:Bk9SR9rYzI7lYA


----------



## Isaacc7

I have been obsessed with finding alternatives to high quality 6sn7 tubes. The prices have just shot up so much. I've been using 7N7, 14N7, 12sn7, 2c50, gf8g, 6/12j5, and CV1102 and kind of forgot about the 6sn7 tubes I own. Popped the Sylvania brown base 6sn7w in to my amp. Not going to lie, felt like I was cheating or something lol. It was so easy to just pop it in without an adapter!

Compared to the tall 7N7 I was using, the 6sn7w is more extended in the treble and sounds a little smoother. It does sound more upwards tilted and seems like it's lacking a bit in bass. It also looks a bit silly with its short envelope in front of the big 6bg6ga tubes on their adapters lol.


----------



## LoryWiv

Isaacc7 said:


> I have been obsessed with finding alternatives to high quality 6sn7 tubes. The prices have just shot up so much. I've been using 7N7, 14N7, 12sn7, 2c50, gf8g, 6/12j5, and CV1102 and kind of forgot about the 6sn7 tubes I own. Popped the Sylvania brown base 6sn7w in to my amp. Not going to lie, felt like I was cheating or something lol. It was so easy to just pop it in without an adapter!
> 
> Compared to the tall 7N7 I was using, the 6sn7w is more extended in the treble and sounds a little smoother. It does sound more upwards tilted and seems like it's lacking a bit in bass. It also looks a bit silly with its short envelope in front of the big 6bg6ga tubes on their adapters lol.


Have you tried 6V6 family instead of 6SN7's, with adapters of course? Some of them sound great and generally quite a bit more affordable.


----------



## Isaacc7

LoryWiv said:


> Have you tried 6V6 family instead of 6SN7's, with adapters of course? Some of them sound great and generally quite a bit more affordable.


I have not. There are adapters that use a pair of triode wired 6v6 instead of 6sn7? That's kind of crazy. Of course once you go down the path of triode wiring pentodes there would seem to be a lot of other potential tubes to use like 6sj7, ef86, etc.


----------



## LoryWiv

Isaacc7 said:


> I have not. There are adapters that use a pair of triode wired 6v6 instead of 6sn7? *That's kind of crazy.* Of course once you go down the path of triode wiring pentodes there would seem to be a lot of other potential tubes to use like 6sj7, ef86, etc.


You are right of course, but results are excellent in my amp. Thinking about it more broadly, there's nothing crazy about using 50-70 year old vacuum tubes in modern audio equipment. We are all quite sane, yes, really we are.


----------



## PeterNL (Sep 14, 2022)

Hello guys.
Can someone help me to identify this beauty ?
Hytron JAN-CHY 6SN7GT from 1951.
I bought it for 10€ from my friend. Is this tube comparable to Sylvania, RCA, Tung-Sol...?


----------



## triod750

Amazing photos...


----------



## PeterNL (Sep 20, 2022)

PeterNL said:


> Hello guys.
> Can someone help me to identify this beauty ?
> Hytron JAN-CHY 6SN7GT from 1951.
> I bought it for 10€ from my friend. Is this tube comparable to Sylvania, RCA, Tung-Sol...?


I have found some information on tubedepot but don't know of this is true:




@Paladin79 What do you think ?


----------



## PeterNL

triod750 said:


> Amazing photos...


Thanks, just photos from chinees phone


----------



## triod750 (Sep 14, 2022)

But somebody took them... Chinese?


----------



## jbua5150 (Sep 14, 2022)

Hey gang!
My 4 National Union 6F8G just showed up!
I need some help from the experts here.
They all have the same date code of EN.
Does anyone know the date of these?
ONE of the 4 is clearly marked VT-99.
I wonder if these ALL are VT-99, with the print rubbed off the bases?
Super anxious to have these tested.

Edit: The boxes these came in have a date of 5/66.
My previous knowledge was that NU used 2 digit date codes UNTIL the 1950's.
If so, these appear older than the boxes would suggest?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jbua5150 said:


> Hey gang!
> My 4 National Union 6F8G just showed up!
> I need some help from the experts here.
> They all have the same date code of EN.
> ...


Speak of the devil!












Mine just arrived, too!  I haven't even bothered looking for a date code, but both of mine are marked 6F8G.


----------



## jbua5150

ColSaulTigh said:


> Speak of the devil!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you buy them from the seller I linked last week?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jbua5150 said:


> Did you buy them from the seller I linked last week?


Sure did.  They've got one pair left - thinking about picking them up too on a "Best Offer".  Boxes are a touch raggedy, but I don't listen to boxes, so....


----------



## paradoxper

CryoTone: a shot in the dark flat on its face.

Around 240 hours. They just got worse.

There's not too much to say, similar to the myriad of current production, not impressed, not engrossed.

A darker response with hard blurring and flat reproduction. 

I think more terrible than the Treasures.

I don't know how Steve Deckert finds these serviceable.


----------



## jonathan c

A little ‘rolling’ in store (Icon Audio HP8 MkII)…and in process (LTA MZ3, Woo WA6)…

P.S. Melz 6N8S are stored separately.


----------



## paradoxper (Sep 14, 2022)

Peace restored. I've completed my 6SN7 journey. 300B journey is final. 300B DAC incoming for integration.


----------



## Isaacc7

paradoxper said:


> CryoTone: a shot in the dark flat on its face.
> 
> Around 240 hours. They just got worse.
> 
> ...


Before swearing them off completely I have found that changing tubes in my preamp can require changes in my amp in order for the system to sound great. Even "good" tubes require system balancing in my experience. Wait, are you using a tube amp? LOL. 

And to be fair to Steve maybe in his systems they do perform well. Or maybe they just won't make you happy. I've certainly given up on some tubes that others like quite a bit.


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> A little ‘rolling’ in store (Icon Audio HP8 MkII)…and in process (LTA MZ3, Woo WA6)…P.S. Melz 6N8S are stored separately.


Woo! You've got some fun coming your way FYI, the two hole Sylvania 6sn7 aren't technically "bad boy" versions. Still good tubes mind you.


----------



## paradoxper

Isaacc7 said:


> Before swearing them off completely I have found that changing tubes in my preamp can require changes in my amp in order for the system to sound great. Even "good" tubes require system balancing in my experience. Wait, are you using a tube amp? LOL.
> 
> And to be fair to Steve maybe in his systems they do perform well. Or maybe they just won't make you happy. I've certainly given up on some tubes that others like quite a bit.


I know my sound. I use a CFA3 headamp and Pass XS 300 monoblocks.


----------



## Isaacc7

paradoxper said:


> Peace restored. I've completed my 6SN7 journey. 300B journey is final. 300B DAC incoming for integration.


Oh man, two pieces of gear that use 300b? Hope you've settled in with the choice of tubes, rolling those adds up quickly!


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Woo! You've got some fun coming your way FYI, the two hole Sylvania 6sn7 aren't technically "bad boy" versions. Still good tubes mind you.


I have a pair of Melz 6N8S (1963 vintage) in LTA MZ3…they could be there awhile…


----------



## mourip (Sep 18, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> The round plate 7N7 tubes are indeed a dead ringer for the NU 6f8g.


I am a bit confused. Since the 7N7 and the 6F8G have a completely different structure I assume that you describing how they sound?

I also have never seen or heard of a round plate 7N7. I have a pretty big stash of both 7N7s and 14N7s but never have run across one. I know that does not mean they do not exist. Also they are usually so completely silvered that it is hard to see inside.

Can you post a photo of one?
Thanks!

Edit: I did a bit of poking around in The Universal Source of Truth and found this comment in Audio Asylum.
"All 7n7's regardless of branding were made by Sylvania .... except the rare, gray glass, tall bottle, round plate National Union 7n7 from the 1940's.

BTW. I have owned both Tungsol 6SN7 TSRPs and 12SN7 versions and they have never been my favorite 6SN7 however I suspect that it is highly dependent on the circuit and system.


----------



## Isaacc7

mourip said:


> I am a bit confused. Since the 7N7 and the 6F8G have a completely different structure I assume that you describing how they sound?
> 
> I also have never seen or heard of a round plate 7N7. I have a pretty big stash of both 7N7s and 14N7s but never have run across one. I know that does not mean they do not exist. Also they are usually so completely silvered that it is hard to see inside.
> 
> ...


I posted a picture a little before the post you quoted. It was part of my exploring my 7n7 collection. The round plate 7n7 and the NU 6f8g both have round plates and in theory have the same characteristics. Shouldn’t be too surprising since they were apparently made by the same company. 

I have a seeming cast of thousands when it comes to my tubes. My favorites are the ones I keep coming back to. The Tungsol RPBG (BGRP?) is one I listen to frequently. I’m currently using it as an input with a pair of GE 6bg6ga output tubes. The combo is rich, almost thick sounding.


----------



## JacobLTA

alright gumshoes, tell me what is going on with these 1578 I just got in from Russia. On the right is the typical construction that I expect to see on a 1578. The left tube is the new mystery valve. No holes in the anode and a big ring getter with a much larger flashing on the bottom/side of the glass. Later production?


----------



## jonathan c

JacobLTA said:


> alright gumshoes, tell me what is going on with these 1578 I just got in from Russia. On the right is the typical construction that I expect to see on a 1578. The left tube is the new mystery valve. No holes in the anode and a big ring getter with a much larger flashing on the bottom/side of the glass. Later production?


This may help (?)…

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6SN7-thread.117677/post-17100975

@Paladin79 is THE expert on Melz (and 6SN7 in general).


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 20, 2022)

JacobLTA said:


> alright gumshoes, tell me what is going on with these 1578 I just got in from Russia. On the right is the typical construction that I expect to see on a 1578. The left tube is the new mystery valve. No holes in the anode and a big ring getter with a much larger flashing on the bottom/side of the glass. Later production?


The one on the left is what I call a solid plate Melz 1578, the ideal type has a shiny black plate, the dull grey I never found to be as great but it is still a decent tube compared to other 6sn7 types. Look in the Melz insignia for the year produced.


----------



## JacobLTA

Paladin79 said:


> The one on the left is what I call a solid plate Melz 1578, the ideal type has a shiny black plate, the dull grey I never found to be as great but it is still a decent tube compared to other 6sn7 types. Look in the Melz insignia for the year produced.


Thank you for that info. I don’t have many hours on these at all but my initial impressions are that they sound pretty good. I don’t think they have the same wide open soundstage as the holey plate version. Maybe they will open up over time.


----------



## Paladin79

JacobLTA said:


> Thank you for that info. I don’t have many hours on these at all but my initial impressions are that they sound pretty good. I don’t think they have the same wide open soundstage as the holey plate version. Maybe they will open up over time.


Not a problem, historically they can develop solder issues inside the pins.


----------



## JacobLTA

Paladin79 said:


> Not a problem, historically they can develop solder issues inside the pins.


Yeah, I’ve run into that with EL34s too. I’m handy with a Weller so not too concerned.


----------



## Paladin79

JacobLTA said:


> Yeah, I’ve run into that with EL34s too. I’m handy with a Weller so not too concerned.


Very good, I still own several Wellers and maybe a Hakko. I am currently working with various power tubes that might go in this amp. I am also buying 12AU7's.


----------



## geoffalter11

I have been watching this thread for awhile, but til now didn’t contribute to the thread. I own an Icon Audio HP8, which takes two 6SN7s in the V2 and V3 slots. The amp came stock with two CV-181 Ceramics under the David Shaw brand, but they are PSvane’s. I like them, but have recently added a few more pairs to my stable.

This thread has been super helpful, as have certain head-fi members with their generosity and knowledge.

1. RCA 1950s 6SN7GTB with Narrow Gap Plates - these are sensational. Imaging is precise and staging has depth and width. Bass control is phenomenal. They sound sweet and clear.
2. Raytheon VT-231 - Wow is all I can muster. They are beautiful to look at with great glow and the sound is impeccable. They truly are a magnificent tube for the HP8.
3. Tung Sol New Production Cryo 6SN6GTB - Thank you to @jonathan c . This tube has surprised me. It is extremely clear, with a beautifully open and articulate treble. They took a bit to smooth over the rough edges, but sound insightful yet still sweet.

The driver tube is a 12AX7/12AT7. I am preferring the 12AT7 currently and find how I pair the driver with the 6SN7s determines which tubes I use. Thus far my favorite pairing is the Brimar CV455 Footscray with the Raytheon VT-231. 2nd place are the RCA Narrow Gaps with a 1950s 12AT7 Telefunken Grey Plate with Diamond mark. Also a fantastic combo.

Love to hear more suggestions. I am in the mood to try more 6SN7s.


----------



## Isaacc7

Back on the 14n7 party... I have found that the the short bottle and tall bottle sound the same. There is a weight and authority to them that is addictive. That and the clarity, top end extension, and bass slam makes this one of my favorite tubes. 

I have a handful of grey glass 14n7 tubes as well. These are all short bottles and because they are completely opaque I can't tell what they look like inside. I have not had good luck with grey glass 7n7 tubes. They have sounded grainy and veiled. Interestingly, those are all tall bottles. Anyway, didn't have high hopes for the grey glass 14n7 but figured I'd try them out to be thorough. 

Surprisingly it sounds quite warm in comparison to the any other Sylvania *sn7 I have tried. Still has the bass I like with the regular 14n7 but does not have the high end or detail. Well, at least so far, this has't been playing for an hour yet. I'll keep it in there for a few days, probably swapping with the regular 14n7 for comparison's sake.


----------



## Isaacc7

Quick correction. I forgot that I have tall grey glass 14n7 tubes. Those, like the grey glass 7n7 sound pretty bad IMO. Gritty, veiled, ugh. These short bottle, grey glass 14n7 are very different and so far quite nice though totally different to any other Sylvania I've heard.


----------



## Isaacc7 (Sep 21, 2022)

Huh. Realized that I had only ever used the tall, grey glass 14n7 in my preamp and I didn't like them at all. I now have the ability to use 12v tubes in my amp so let's try them again.

I can't tell the difference between the tall and short bottle grey glass 14n7. They sound quite good in the amp. They actually have more than a little resemblance to the Tungsol round plate *sn7. It's wild how different the same tube can perform in different circuits/equipment.


----------



## jonathan c (Sep 21, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> It's wild how different the same tube can perform in different circuits/equipment.


That makes me wonder if, shy of internal / external damage, a tube can be inherently ‘god-awful’? Can a tube be never ‘bailed out’ by circuits or other tubes in the circuit? Even, say, ECGs? 😳


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> That makes me wonder if, shy of internal / external damage, a tube can be inherently ‘god-awful’? Can a tube be never ‘bailed out’ by circuits or other tubes in the circuit? Even, say, ECGs? 😳


I was given some Russian 807 tubes that my friend didn't like in his amp. I put them in and agreed, they were dreadful. Decided I was going to thrown them out. Fast forward 6 months and the same friend gifts me some Sylvania 5933. I was in the middle of doing some other stuff so it took me a while to get to them. Eventually I found the boxes and put them in and thought they were great! 

I of course rotate tubes a lot so out they came and I listened to others. Digging through my stash one day I came across the 5933 boxes. They were unopened. Turns out the tubes I liked were the ones I initially hated so much I was just going to throw them out. I'm pretty sure the second time around I was using a different input tube in the amp. Weirdly, I went back to those tubes a month or so back and I thought they were dreadful again lol. Wasn't in the mood to look for the magic tube combo to make them sing. 

So... maybe every tube can be decent in the right situation? I have a few other tubes that I eventually found good combos with but those 807 were the most extreme example I've experienced.


----------



## RobertSM (Sep 22, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> I have been watching this thread for awhile, but til now didn’t contribute to the thread. I own an Icon Audio HP8, which takes two 6SN7s in the V2 and V3 slots. The amp came stock with two CV-181 Ceramics under the David Shaw brand, but they are PSvane’s. I like them, but have recently added a few more pairs to my stable.
> 
> This thread has been super helpful, as have certain head-fi members with their generosity and knowledge.
> 
> ...


I use to own the Icon Audio HP8 MKII. Good amp. I swapped out the stock coupling capacitors for Mundorf silver oil. That made a big difference.

You might consider mid 50's Sylvania 'chrome domes' for the 6SN7 pair. Very linear with just a touch of warmth. Very even top to bottom with the full bandwidth evenly represented. For the 12AX7, I'd recommend the Mazda France silver plates. Now these have become pricey but they are worth it. This tube is available in the 2 and 3 mica versions. Sonically they are close enough. Super airy and elegant treble with a very even European tuning. Not a fat and flabby sounding tube. This tube is all about finesse,balance and elegance.

Enjoy your amp. It's a fun one


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> That makes me wonder if, shy of internal / external damage, a tube can be inherently ‘god-awful’? Can a tube be never ‘bailed out’ by circuits or other tubes in the circuit? Even, say, ECGs? 😳


Any component that would make an ECG sound good would have to be a total train wreck.  A negative plus a negative equals a positive, right?   🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Any component that would make an ECG sound good would have to be a total train wreck.  A negative _times _a negative equals a positive, right? 🤣


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021] 😜


----------



## triod750

bcowen said:


> A negative plus a negative equals


two negatives...or should it be too negative?


----------



## LoryWiv

2 atoms were walking down the street. One said "I think I've lost my electron". The other said "Don't be so negative"!
2 atoms were walking down the street. One said "I think I've lost my proton". The other said "Are you positive"!


----------



## geoffalter11 (Sep 24, 2022)

RobertSM said:


> I use to own the Icon Audio HP8 MKII. Good amp. I swapped out the stock coupling capacitors for Mundorf silver oil. That made a big difference.
> 
> You might consider mid 50's Sylvania 'chrome domes' for the 6SN7 pair. Very linear with just a touch of warmth. Very even top to bottom with the full bandwidth evenly represented. For the 12AX7, I'd recommend the Mazda France silver plates. Now these have become pricey but they are worth it. This tube is available in the 2 and 3 mica versions. Sonically they are close enough. Super airy and elegant treble with a very even European tuning. Not a fat and flabby sounding tube. This tube is all about finesse,balance and elegance.
> 
> Enjoy your amp. It's a fun one


Thanks for the advice. I have the Signature version upgraded to the Mundorf Caps. Not sure they are silver foil, whatever Icon offers with the Signature Mundorf upgrade.

I will check out the Sylvania Chrome’s and the Mazda 12AX7s. Appreciate the recommend.

It is a really great amp. Top to bottom it is extremely coherent with a beautiful low end. It has a gentle, yet slightly warm midrange. It is very powerful for its output numbers.

(edited, written while off the grid at lake Powell…). .


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021] 😜


LOL!  I suck at math.  I should probably just stick to tube hoarding which I seem to be reasonably good at.   🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I suck at math.  I should probably just stick to tube hoarding which I seem to be reasonably good at.   🤣


Expert at addition……subtraction, well……


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I suck at math.  I should probably just stick to tube hoarding which I seem to be reasonably good at.   🤣


To quote SNL and Chevy Chase as President Ford, “I was told there’d be no math”.


----------



## geoffalter11

RobertSM said:


> I use to own the Icon Audio HP8 MKII. Good amp. I swapped out the stock coupling capacitors for Mundorf silver oil. That made a big difference.
> 
> You might consider mid 50's Sylvania 'chrome domes' for the 6SN7 pair. Very linear with just a touch of warmth. Very even top to bottom with the full bandwidth evenly represented. For the 12AX7, I'd recommend the Mazda France silver plates. Now these have become pricey but they are worth it. This tube is available in the 2 and 3 mica versions. Sonically they are close enough. Super airy and elegant treble with a very even European tuning. Not a fat and flabby sounding tube. This tube is all about finesse,balance and elegance.
> 
> Enjoy your amp. It's a fun one


I am looking for both the Sylvania Chrome Domes and the Mazda 12AX7… care to share which ones you would look to get?


----------



## Paladin79

I am now listening to various 12Au7 pairs thanks to a gentleman on this thread sharing with me, Mr. Cowen did help with some 12AX7's but these are for a different amp.    I do go back to 6sn7's in other devices but I have plenty of those.


----------



## geoffalter11

Can you use 12AU7s in place of 12AX7s?  My HP8 says it can use a 12AT7 instead of the 12AX7, but nothing about 12AU7s.


----------



## bcowen

geoffalter11 said:


> Can you use 12AU7s in place of 12AX7s?  My HP8 says it can use a 12AT7 instead of the 12AX7, but nothing about 12AU7s.


It won't hurt anything to use one, but due to the much lower gain you'll likely either get a lot of noise or not get sufficient output volume.  Amplification factor of a 12AU7 is 20.  A 12AX7 is 100, and the 12AT7 is 60.  If a 12AX7 is the native tube, the 12AT7 might have enough gain to get by, but probably not the 12AU7.


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> It won't hurt anything to use one, but due to the much lower gain you'll likely either get a lot of noise or not get sufficient output volume.  Amplification factor of a 12AU7 is 20.  A 12AX7 is 100, and the 12AT7 is 60.  If a 12AX7 is the native tube, the 12AT7 might have enough gain to get by, but probably not the 12AU7.


I am using a 12AT7 Brimar KB/FB Footscray as well as a 1950's Telefunken Grey Plate with Diamond 12AT7 and I notice absolutely no difference in volume with the lower gain.  I do notice better headroom and a bit easier dynamic shift, but the volume is exactly the same out of my HP8.


----------



## geoffalter11

My favorite combos with the HP8...

1. Raytheon VT-231 with Brimar CV455 Footscray
2. RCA 6SN7GTB 1950s Narrow Gaps with Telefunken 12AT7 1950s
3. RCA Narrow Gas with 1960's RCA 12AX7A
4. Tung Sol New Production Cryo 6SN7GTB with Mullard 6201


----------



## RobertSM (Sep 25, 2022)

@geoffalter11 

The Sylvania chrome domes look like this.






The Mazda chrome/silver plate 12ax7 looks like this





Note the Mazda 12ax7's are the crossed flag version. These were military grade and thought to be a bit better due to selective screening. I've heard both the military version and the radio, civilian version and to my ears they sound the same.


----------



## geoffalter11

RobertSM said:


> I use to own the Icon Audio HP8 MKII. Good amp. I swapped out the stock coupling capacitors for Mundorf silver oil. That made a big difference.
> 
> You might consider mid 50's Sylvania 'chrome domes' for the 6SN7 pair. Very linear with just a touch of warmth. Very even top to bottom with the full bandwidth evenly represented. For the 12AX7, I'd recommend the Mazda France silver plates. Now these have become pricey but they are worth it. This tube is available in the 2 and 3 mica versions. Sonically they are close enough. Super airy and elegant treble with a very even European tuning. Not a fat and flabby sounding tube. This tube is all about finesse,balance and elegance.
> 
> Enjoy your amp. It's a fun one


I have found the tubes you recommend and have put them into my cart on eBay.  I am definitely going to get the Sylvania Chrome Domes, just not sure about the Mazda 12AX7s.  They are $350 for a matched pair, which is a bit out of my budget.  I am going to keep looking.  I want to try a Sylvania JHS JAN 5751 12AX7 NIB at $80 as well as a CBS-GE 5692 Brown Base Matched Pair.  I think I have 12 different auctions in my cart as I vacillate.  

I love this amp.  David Shaw swears that tube rolling has zero effect on the sound of the amp.  This is not what I have experienced.  But, I respect David greatly and he is nothing but a gentleman who also makes amazing amps.  I really want to hear his 205D headamp too....


----------



## geoffalter11

RobertSM said:


> @geoffalter11
> 
> The Sylvania chrome domes look like this.
> 
> ...


These are great pics.  Thank you!  Those Sylvania's look awesome.


----------



## geoffalter11

RobertSM said:


> @geoffalter11
> 
> The Sylvania chrome domes look like this.
> 
> ...


2, NEW, Sylvania 6SN7GTA, Bad Boy, short, chrome dome, match date pair, 6SN7GT.  These have the exact same picture of the ones you have above.


----------



## RobertSM

For the Mazda you could give Brett Jessee a call. He might have one single Mazda silver plate 12ax7 for you for a fair price. To be honest I had no idea that this specific tube had become so expensive. It's actually nuts that prices have gone up as they have.


----------



## geoffalter11

RobertSM said:


> For the Mazda you could give Brett Jessee a call. He might have one single Mazda silver plate 12ax7 for you for a fair price. To be honest I had no idea that this specific tube had become so expensive. It's actually nuts that prices have gone up as they have.


I can't even find one.  The chrome Mazda's are almost $300 each.  There are so many amazing tubes in that variant that I can't justify spending that much.  I will PM you to show you what I am looking at.


----------



## Ranger Ron

geoffalter11 said:


> I can't even find one.  The chrome Mazda's are almost $300 each.  There are so many amazing tubes in that variant that I can't justify spending that much.  I will PM you to show you what I am looking at.


I agree with your statement here. Look for a silvery plate, often called pewter plate, KenRad 12AX7 not to be confused with GE.  It will have a dimpled getter, not the horseshoe getter of early GE’s.  They can still be found on the cheap. In my Decware ZP3 it is hard to beat.


----------



## geoffalter11

Ranger Ron said:


> I agree with your statement here. Look for a silvery plate, often called pewter plate, KenRad 12AX7 not to be confused with GE.  It will have a dimpled getter, not the horseshoe getter of early GE’s.  They can still be found on the cheap. In my Decware ZP3 it is hard to beat.


Thanks for the recommend. Love this thread.


----------



## Isaacc7

RobertSM said:


> @geoffalter11
> 
> The Sylvania chrome domes look like this.
> 
> ...


Like a lot of things in audio, there is some discussion as to what "chrome dome" means. I have always associated it with the older tubes with the getter silvering extending down most of the tube or in the case of the short bottle, the entire tube. Like this:






Ebay is full of listings trying to SEO the hell out of everything and latch on to every tube buzzword out there. That's why you'll see things advertised as chrome domes, bad boys, and RARE! no matter which one they are actually selling. You'll like the ones you bought but then again I've always been a sucker for Sylvania *sn7 tubes


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> Like a lot of things in audio, there is some discussion as to what "chrome dome" means. I have always associated it with the older tubes with the getter silvering extending down most of the tube or in the case of the short bottle, the entire tube. Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Ebay is full of listings trying to SEO the hell out of everything and latch on to every tube buzzword out there. That's why you'll see things advertised as chrome domes, bad boys, and RARE! no matter which one they are actually selling. You'll like the ones you bought but then again I've always been a sucker for Sylvania *sn7 tubes


…somewhat related: I have been getting stunning sound from 12SN7 ‘yellow print’ Sylvanias (plus Brimar CV455 KB/FBs) in LTA MZ3. 😀


----------



## Ranger Ron

Isaacc7 said:


> Like a lot of things in audio, there is some discussion as to what "chrome dome" means. I have always associated it with the older tubes with the getter silvering extending down most of the tube or in the case of the short bottle, the entire tube. Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Ebay is full of listings trying to SEO the hell out of everything and latch on to every tube buzzword out there. That's why you'll see things advertised as chrome domes, bad boys, and RARE! no matter which one they are actually selling. You'll like the ones you bought but then again I've always been a sucker for Sylvania *sn7 tubes


I like the ‘civilian’6SN7GT version without the support rod, two hole plates


----------



## Isaacc7

Ranger Ron said:


> I like the ‘civilian’6SN7GT version without the support rod, two hole plates


My picture is actually of my 14n7. All of them have the copper support rod. I think the 14n7 is the best sounding *sn7 from Sylvania. Pretty sure it is the same construction as the coveted metal base 6sn7w. Sounds noticeably different from all the other ones I've tried. I talked a bit about them just a page or two back in this thread.

I do like the ones you posted too though


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> …somewhat related: I have been getting stunning sound from 12SN7 ‘yellow print’ Sylvanias (plus Brimar CV455 KB/FBs) in LTA MZ3. 😀


It's hard to go wrong with old Sylvanias. If you can run 12sn7 I encourage you to dive into the whole catalog, they're all really cheap. 2 and 3 hole bottom getter. Short and tall "chrome domes" with the long silvering, bad boys etc.


----------



## jonathan c

Isaacc7 said:


> It's hard to go wrong with old Sylvanias. If you can run 12sn7 I encourage you to dive into the whole catalog, they're all really cheap. 2 and 3 hole bottom getter. Short and tall "chrome domes" with the long silvering, bad boys etc.


The LTA MZ3 has a switch, on the circuit board, for 6SN7 / 12SN7. 😄


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> The LTA MZ3 has a switch, on the circuit board, for 6SN7 / 12SN7. 😄


Ah Linear Tube Audio, I have always liked their work, you have excellent taste. It’s been ages since I first talked to David Berning and I always meant to visit when I travel East.


----------



## Isaacc7

jonathan c said:


> The LTA MZ3 has a switch, on the circuit board, for 6SN7 / 12SN7. 😄


I am starting to explore the 12sl7 world too. It never ends lol. Having the flexibility to choose between 6v and 12v is really nice. There are also some 12v 12sn7 variations that aren't available in 6v. There are tubes like the Raytheon 2c50 (made by Bendix) and the 12sx7.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Ah Linear Tube Audio, I have always liked their work, you have excellent taste. It’s been ages since I first talked to David Berning and I always meant to visit when I travel East.


I have to say that the LTA is the best that I have heard. Even though I have had it for 1-1/2+ years, I am still learning its capabilities (w/ 12SN7, 6SN7, 12AT7).


----------



## geoffalter11

Isaacc7 said:


> Like a lot of things in audio, there is some discussion as to what "chrome dome" means. I have always associated it with the older tubes with the getter silvering extending down most of the tube or in the case of the short bottle, the entire tube. Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Ebay is full of listings trying to SEO the hell out of everything and latch on to every tube buzzword out there. That's why you'll see things advertised as chrome domes, bad boys, and RARE! no matter which one they are actually selling. You'll like the ones you bought but then again I've always been a sucker for Sylvania *sn7 tubes


eBay is a cesspool of fake and fraudulent stuff. Hopefully we all buy from reputable sources.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 26, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> eBay is a cesspool of fake and fraudulent stuff. Hopefully we all buy from reputable sources.


It can be a costly lesson but eventually you learn who to trust. Unfortunately one of my main sources for tubes and amplifier transformers is in Russia so I can no longer buy like I once did. Most tubes I got were new in the packing but if he was ever unsure he send them to me and I would pay for those I could recover by replacing the solder in the pins.

Speaking of EBAY I just won a 1400 piece Jazz music CD set on EBAY for $12.80.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2557343061...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I have already been refunded lol, seller may not be doing business there again.


----------



## RobertSM

Geoff,

Personally I like the green print Sylvania's over the yellow print.

Both the GE and the Apmerex input tubes look fantastic. I definitely think you're heading in a fantastic direction with tubes for the HP8 MKII!

Let me know what you decide on so I can share in the fun! Haha!!


Robert


----------



## geoffalter11

RobertSM said:


> Geoff,
> 
> Personally I like the green print Sylvania's over the yellow print.
> 
> ...


Thanks Robert.  I appreciate the advice.


----------



## geoffalter11

RobertSM said:


> Geoff,
> 
> Personally I like the green print Sylvania's over the yellow print.
> 
> ...


I think I am going to get the Green Label Sylvania's and the Amperex.  Been curious about Amperex driver tubes.


----------



## geoffalter11

@RobertSM how do you feel about the 5692 red and brown base variants?  Worth the money?  I understand the Brimar CV1988 is the Grand Daddy of 6SN7s.  They are not cheap.  I wonder how much a tube like that would affect the sound on my HP8 versus these Sylvania's or the Raytheon VT-231's.


----------



## geoffalter11

I am finding 6SN7 tube rolling to be quite addictive.  I want to try them all and I can't stop researching and looking for matched pairs to ogle and potentially purchase.  I want a big box of tubes like @jonathan c !


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> I am finding 6SN7 tube rolling to be quite addictive.  I want to try them all and I can't stop researching and looking for matched pairs to ogle and potentially purchase.  I want a big box of tubes like @jonathan c !


As far as big boxes of tubes I heard over 1500 compatible 6sn7's in blind listening myself but when all is said and done some of the best known did not fare so well but those who paid big bucks do not usually want to hear that lol.


----------



## RobertSM

It's true @geoffalter11, @Paladin79  is our resident 6SN7 guru. He's definitely heard and tested way more tubes then I have.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 26, 2022)

RobertSM said:


> It's true @geoffalter11, @Paladin79  is our resident 6SN7 guru. He's definitely heard and tested way more tubes then I have.


yeah but I am ancient and my memory is not what it once was.   I am but a humble woodworker now.


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> As far as big boxes of tubes I heard over 1500 compatible 6sn7's in blind listening myself but when all is said and done some of the best known did not fare so well but those who paid big bucks do not usually want to hear that lol.


I appreciate your response.  I certainly don't want to buy hundreds of tubes, just the right ones that will allow my HP8 to be that much better.  I love this amp.  I have been thrilled thus far with the 6SN7s I have tried and own, as well as the 12AX7s and 12AT7s.  David Shaw swears that the circuit is controlling the sound, not the tubes and that he cannot hear a difference when rolling tubes on the HP8.  I have not found this to be the case.  But, the differences aren't 20-25%.  They are within the tolerances of the tubes and more affect flavor versus quality from what I can tell.  But, differences there are.  I absolutely love trying new tubes.  I am head over heels for the Raytheon VT-231s right now.  But, I also love the RCA Narrow Gap GTBs that Ken from BullzTubez highly recommended.  They are sweet sounding tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> I appreciate your response.  I certainly don't want to buy hundreds of tubes, just the right ones that will allow my HP8 to be that much better.  I love this amp.  I have been thrilled thus far with the 6SN7s I have tried and own, as well as the 12AX7s and 12AT7s.  David Shaw swears that the circuit is controlling the sound, not the tubes and that he cannot hear a difference when rolling tubes on the HP8.  I have not found this to be the case.  But, the differences aren't 20-25%.  They are within the tolerances of the tubes and more affect flavor versus quality from what I can tell.  But, differences there are.  I absolutely love trying new tubes.  I am head over heels for the Raytheon VT-231s right now.  But, I also love the RCA Narrow Gap GTBs that Ken from BullzTubez highly recommended.  They are sweet sounding tubes.


I designed my own headphone amplifiers so one could hear the difference in tubes. Four of them were used in my testing. The only time I have not been able to hear much difference in tubes is in hybrid amps, a Lyr 3 is wasted on me.  I sent @bcowen 8 tubes totally concealed in PVC and he could name at least five of them, using a Lyr 3. Not all of us have the same abilities to hear.  We used 25 criteria and music specially recorded to show off differences.

I did a similar setup for Schiit audio..




I want tube sound and I do not want tube sound that I cannot tell from solid state lol.


----------



## JTbbb

geoffalter11 said:


> @RobertSM how do you feel about the 5692 red and brown base variants?  Worth the money?  I understand the Brimar CV1988 is the Grand Daddy of 6SN7s.  They are not cheap.  I wonder how much a tube like that would affect the sound on my HP8 versus these Sylvania's or the Raytheon VT-231's.


I have had the RCA Red Base 5692’s and the CBS Brown base version (still have the CBS’s) and could not discern any difference between them. Internal construction was the same too.


----------



## Paladin79

JTbbb said:


> I have had the RCA Red Base 5692’s and the CBS Brown base version (still have the CBS’s) and could not discern any difference between them. Internal construction was the same too.


I like 5692's especially in a Freya +.


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> I designed my own headphone amplifiers so one could hear the difference in tubes. Four of them were used in my testing. The only time I have not been able to hear much difference in tubes is in hybrid amps, a Lyr 3 is wasted on me.  I sent @bcowen 8 tubes totally concealed in PVC and he could name at least five of them, using a Lyr 3. Not all of us have the same abilities to hear.  We used 25 criteria and music specially recorded to show off differences.
> 
> I did a similar setup for Schiit audio..
> 
> ...


That actually makes perfect sense.  I understand exactly what you are saying.  The best tube amps do exactly that.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> yeah but I am ancient and my memory is not what it once was.   I am but a humble woodworker now.


And a teller of tall tales.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 26, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> That actually makes perfect sense.  I understand exactly what you are saying.  The best tube amps do exactly that.


Inside those PVC tubes were things like a Ken-Rad black glass VT 231, a true Sylvania Bad Boy, a Melz, a 1942 grey glass RCA, and a couple crappy tubes. Bill bet he could pick out a GE tube and he nearly did, he got it down to the crappy choices and it was a coin flip lol. Things like that and other events I was involved in made me decide to do a blind listen to all such tubes friends and I could buy and rate them on the same amps, headphones, and music.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> And a teller of tall tales.


Sam has at least four wooden items I made, some electronics may have been involved as well.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> yeah but I am ancient and my memory is not what it once was**.  I am but a humble woodworker now.


** but not a vacuum 🤣 !!


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Sam has at least four wooden items I made, some electronics may have been involved as well.


And a little magic.


----------



## khashmi

Coincidentally, I have a 1944 RCA Grey Glass RCA VT-231 (Gain) and a 1945 Black Glass Ken-Rad VT-231 (buffer) back in rotation on the Freya plus and a yellow print Sylvania 6sn7 GTB (just switched over from a green print GTA 2 days ago) and a new production Sophia Electric Aqua 274b rectifier on my Inspire Had amp.  The Freya tubes are a massive powerhouse of a combo and I have had to turn down the volume with my (comparatively) higher wattage RCA 807 power tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

khashmi said:


> Coincidentally, I have a 1944 RCA Grey Glass RCA VT-231 (Gain) and a 1945 Black Glass Ken-Rad VT-231 (buffer) back in rotation on the Freya plus and a yellow print Sylvania 6sn7 GTB (just switched over from a green print GTA 2 days ago) and a new production Sophia Electric Aqua 274b rectifier on my Inspire Had amp.  The Freya tubes are a massive powerhouse of a combo and I have had to turn down the volume with my (comparatively) higher wattage RCA 807 power tubes.


The Had amp must be Dennis Had, I own a Cary he personally sold about 27 years ago. It will be next to my PrimaLuna one day soon. Very good choices on tubes. I have put four Melz in a Freya + but it was overkill, I had to back off on the buffer stage. 😉😉


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> Inside those PVC tubes were things like a Ken-Rad black glass VT 231, a true Sylvania Bad Boy, a Melz, a 1942 grey glass RCA, and a couple crappy tubes. Bill bet he could pick out a GE tube and he nearly did, he got it down to the crappy choices and it was a coin flip lol. Things like that and other events I was involved in made me decide to do a blind listen to all such tubes friends and I could buy and rate them on the same amps, headphones, and music.


And what were your findings?  Favorites?


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> The Had amp must be Dennis Had, I own a Cary he personally sold about 27 years ago. It will be next to my PrimaLuna one day soon. Very good choices on tubes. I have put four Melz in a Freya + but it was overkill, I had to back off on the buffer stage. 😉😉


Which Melz 6SN7 is the one to get?


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> And what were your findings?  Favorites?


I will list some of them tomorrow, my wife and I are about to have dinner and watch a movie. Top marks go to a specific Melz for sure with a GEC in the mix.😁


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> I will list some of them tomorrow, my wife and I are about to have dinner and watch a movie. Top marks go to a specific Melz for sure with a GEC in the mix.😁


Thanks.  Can't wait!


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> Which Melz 6SN7 is the one to get?


I will describe it later lol. Sam has one of the top tier as does Cowen.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 27, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> Thanks.  Can't wait!


I have an appointment this morn but the Melz that rated the highest was the solid shiny black plate with metal upper supports made from 1954-1959, we only used one example per similar items otherwise Melz would most likely have dominated the top five.  Same way with Sylvania, we used the three hole bad boy instead of a couple other variations, it rated a bit higher.

Among the top ten were a Ken-Rad black glass vt 231, a GEC( Marconi and Osram we had looked the same).
An RFT, a 7n7 pair of Sylvanias, an RCA grey glass, CBS/Hytron 5692, oddly enough a Shuguang treasure, 

Those  are about all I want to list at this time, please note eight of us chose those toward the top, the final 52 tubes were meant to be heard by fifty people in a blind listen but Covid got in the way and we were not able to get that large of a group into the lab where we set this up.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> The Had amp must be Dennis Had, I own a Cary he personally sold about 27 years ago. It will be next to my PrimaLuna one day soon. Very good choices on tubes. I have put four Melz in a Freya + but it was overkill, I had to back off on the buffer stage. 😉😉


Quad MELZ is the only way with Freya.


----------



## Paladin79

paradoxper said:


> Quad MELZ is the only way with Freya.


I am happy with two lol and trust me I have tried four.


----------



## paradoxper

Paladin79 said:


> I am happy with two lol and trust me I have tried four.


Now try four Elrogs.


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> I have an appointment this morn but the Melz that rated the highest was the solid shiny black plate with metal upper supports made from 1954-1959, we only used one example per similar items otherwise Melz would most likely have dominated the top five.  Same way with Sylvania, we used the three hole bad boy instead of a couple other variations, it rated a bit higher.
> 
> Among the top ten were a Ken-Rad black glass vt 231, a GEC( Marconi and Osram we had looked the same).
> An RFT, a 7n7 pair of Sylvanias, an RCA grey glass, CBS/Hytron 5692, oddly enough a Shuguang treasure,
> ...


Thank you. I am looking at a Sylvania 1950s 3 hole bad boy right now.  Melz is trickier.  The ones I see on eBay I can't tell if they are the right ones.  They are all metal bases...

Is this a good pair of Melz?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3044437756...p9sOvHBFixVYRwje6x8I24xpoD|tkp:Bk9SR-yjpITwYA


----------



## Paladin79

Those are lesser quality, similar to Fotons IMHO


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> Those are lesser quality, similar to Fotons IMHO


I am going to pass on a Melz 6SN7.  Out of my budget.  I don't like spending more than $200 for a matched pair.  I feel like I can get great sound at that price point.  I do love that 12AT7s tend to be 2/3 less than 12AX7s which is nice as my amp uses both beautifully.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 27, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> I am going to pass on a Melz 6SN7.  Out of my budget.  I don't like spending more than $200 for a matched pair.  I feel like I can get great sound at that price point.  I do love that 12AT7s tend to be 2/3 less than 12AX7s which is nice as my amp uses both beautifully.


I have been buying them for several years and paid as little as $35 each for some highly rated ones before others caught on.




This photo shows the structure of the type I like the best. It is a 1956, it has everything but the perforated plates that you generally look for but for some reason these sound better to my ear as well as the ears of others in my local group. Several friends on here know the sound, I no longer give them away but I have before. There is a version with dull grey plates but they do not sound as good IMHO.

As I said earlier, we judged a tube on 25 criteria, so a tube best do well over the entire audio spectrum to get high marks. Some might have great mids and not a very accurate bass or might be lacking in the top end.  We also used music to specifically show off those traits. It was as objective as we could make it.


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> I have been buying them for several years and paid as little as $35 each for some highly rated ones before others caught on.
> 
> 
> 
> This photo shows the structure of the type I like the best. It is a 1956, it has everything but the perforated plates that you generally look for but for some reason these sound better to my ear as well as the ears of others in my local group. Several friends on here know the sound, I no longer give them away but I have before. There is a version with dull grey plates but they do not sound as good IMHO.


Where would you find them?


----------



## geoffalter11

geoffalter11 said:


> Where would you find them?


These look to be 1956...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2542174641...ymEWoRU4/uAwmXXBViuScU5nM=|tkp:Bk9SR6SSlobwYA


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 27, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> These look to be 1956...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254217464183?hash=item3b308aa977:g:fsIAAOSwoQphpoA0&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoLatxvV8o9pHsN3f9SfDqRVyfhUrtXyT0WdU+IdrwnnS0iJyYZBMNeizuhSeDhUbcK9oHJvRDUSH+cd+r5K8hyLzshNGKhygYyY1iwhQi0fcZWS4vZ3RucktuhYrabbTCt5o/sxTUxNIbWwsD+l1IJ4nj01TSe/wdzCLidkflYe5H5Sa8ZqueFn9LpjaUKymEWoRU4/uAwmXXBViuScU5nM=|tkp:Bk9SR6SSlobwYA


There are no Melz on Ebay right now that I would own except for the one on the left.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234707074482?hash=item36a5a1bdb2:g:-g8AAOSwF3FjLxpX&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4LGwR98nOMrm5yvKx1XsJec186uH9SYGFx42bAvt/368wU9B+8+XXvGZrGKk1DklZdCQD2/1S7k/2Z1gLiDpYfY4E6s6oKVapvlhBNqWGq4H/ktikmNnCUqeX90eAcj/due08SpuE1ZMLocznzvN9jKrS/SpHnR5vQRtBsV9L3lhMdftffuwkBap25V6AUCyG8IP0tCprLNm7GvrrUo+CpKLS/CygdwYXia19Vp3fJ4S3Xh3K+1veTqhCLMSOMIiOL96HAu+TkGNU0MugWWstXEXots6LRfVkgQ8FnAyXn6O|tkp:Bk9SR7qin4bwYA

But they linked a lesser tube with it and the price is much too high. I saw some of the lesser Melz going for around $55 each which is close to what they are worth. Melz are hard to find now so you see folks trying to get big bucks for the lesser ones, some people might bite thinking they are the real deal.

Oh and friends and I started collecting 6sn7 equivalents a few years ago, tubes were more readily available at reasonable prices. Some of the folks already had decent tubes in their collections and naturally I had the largest group of Melz around and several nice Ken-Rad, RCA, and Sylvanias as well as Tung Sol black glass round plates, both styles.


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> There are no Melz on Ebay right now that I would own except for the one on the left.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/234707074482?hash=item36a5a1bdb2:g:-g8AAOSwF3FjLxpX&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4LGwR98nOMrm5yvKx1XsJec186uH9SYGFx42bAvt/368wU9B+8+XXvGZrGKk1DklZdCQD2/1S7k/2Z1gLiDpYfY4E6s6oKVapvlhBNqWGq4H/ktikmNnCUqeX90eAcj/due08SpuE1ZMLocznzvN9jKrS/SpHnR5vQRtBsV9L3lhMdftffuwkBap25V6AUCyG8IP0tCprLNm7GvrrUo+CpKLS/CygdwYXia19Vp3fJ4S3Xh3K+1veTqhCLMSOMIiOL96HAu+TkGNU0MugWWstXEXots6LRfVkgQ8FnAyXn6O|tkp:Bk9SR7qin4bwYA
> 
> ...


It is crazy how expensive they have gotten. The Tung Sol black glass round plates are crazy expensive. Just saw a pair on eBay without the black glass for just under $600. The RCAs and Sylvania’s can mostly be found for reasonable prices. Not what they once were but still acceptable.

Thanks for all the info. Finding a balance between budget and sound quality is always tricky.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

6F8G's are having the same issue.  They're also very hard to find under $500/pair for quality examples.  I'm also seeing a lot of stuff with "recreated" boxes, so be sure to read the descriptions carefully.


----------



## paradoxper

geoffalter11 said:


> Where would you find them?


I sold a bunch recently but didn't think you'd be interested. They'll pop back up on eBay, ensure you're prudent with the seller.


----------



## jonathan c

Let’s not forget / overlook the ‘refurbished’ tube ploy! 😳…..fresh silkscreen?….Brasso polished metal bases?….🤔😏….


----------



## geoffalter11

I put the stock CV-181 Ceramic Bottom PSvane tubes into my HP8 with the Telefunken 12AT7 Grey Plate 1950s in the driver seat.  I haven't listened to the CV-181 Ceramics in awhile.  They sound great.  Soundstage is a smidge (2-3%) more compressed, but otherwise they sound awesome.  With a really good driver tube the CV-181 Ceramics perform admirably.  Plus, I love the look of the bottle tubes.  They are sexy in the HP8.

@Paladin79 do you have any experience with the PSvane CV-181 Ceramics?


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 28, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> I put the stock CV-181 Ceramic Bottom PSvane tubes into my HP8 with the Telefunken 12AT7 Grey Plate 1950s in the driver seat.  I haven't listened to the CV-181 Ceramics in awhile.  They sound great.  Soundstage is a smidge (2-3%) more compressed, but otherwise they sound awesome.  With a really good driver tube the CV-181 Ceramics perform admirably.  Plus, I love the look of the bottle tubes.  They are sexy in the HP8.
> 
> @Paladin79 do you have any experience with the PSvane CV-181 Ceramics?


Of course, Finnegan my cat managed to break one while it was still in the box.   As I recall they were at least top 50 in my groups studies. To the best of my knowledge all tubes with the PrimaLuna name on them in my amp were made by PSvane, I was researching them a couple days ago. One friend acknowledged if you need a large stock of tubes for new production, he would take them over many of the new Russian releases.


----------



## jonathan c

geoffalter11 said:


> I put the stock CV-181 Ceramic Bottom PSvane tubes into my HP8 with the Telefunken 12AT7 Grey Plate 1950s in the driver seat.  I haven't listened to the CV-181 Ceramics in awhile.  They sound great.  Soundstage is a smidge (2-3%) more compressed, but otherwise they sound awesome.  With a really good driver tube the CV-181 Ceramics perform admirably.  Plus, I love the look of the bottle tubes.  They are sexy in the HP8.
> 
> @Paladin79 do you have any experience with the PSvane CV-181 Ceramics?


If you can by ear detect a 2% - 3% soundstage compression, you should be head of QC at PSvane…🤣🤣…


----------



## geoffalter11

jonathan c said:


> If you can by ear detect a 2% - 3% soundstage compression, you should be head of QC at PSvane…🤣🤣…


haha... I can hear a difference in soundstage sizing and a bit with imaging between the tubes.  With the HP8, the transformer and circuit is the majority of the sound.  Tube rolling makes differences but they aren't 15-20% leaps.  I think a 2-3% difference is noticeable over time and I feel that is an adequate difference worth investing in other tubes.

The difference is greater when I put the stock Electro Harmonix EH 12AX7 Russian Made in the driver slot. Using a TOTL driver tube mitigates bigger differences with the power tubes in my experience.  I am by no means an expert, and very much a noob with tubes, but this is what I am hearing.


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> Of course, Finnegan my cat managed to break one while it was still in the box.   As I recall they were at least top 50 in my groups studies. To the best of my knowledge all tubes with the PrimaLuna name on them in my amp were made by PSvane, I was researching them a couple days ago. One friend acknowledged if you need a large stock of tubes for new production, he would take them over many of the new Russian releases.


I quite like the CV-181s.  I prefer my other power tubes, but they are beautiful tubes and the sound is quite good.  I hated the driver tube that came stock with the HP8.  Just didn't sound good in comparison to my other driver tubes on hand.  Which are significant steps up from the 12AX7 EH.


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> I quite like the CV-181s.  I prefer my other power tubes, but they are beautiful tubes and the sound is quite good.  I hated the driver tube that came stock with the HP8.  Just didn't sound good in comparison to my other driver tubes on hand.  Which are significant steps up from the 12AX7 EH.


6SN7 is the driver tube in an amp I designed, 6AS7 equivalents are the power tube


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> 6SN7 is the driver tube in an amp I designed, 6AS7 equivalents are the power tube


I bet that sounds awesome!!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 28, 2022)

geoffalter11 said:


> I bet that sounds awesome!!!!


Others have liked it, I gave 7 away but that was when I could still get the transformers I liked. And I tried to make them pretty.  This is using a Schiit LISST solid state tube just to see how it sounded.


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> Others have liked it, I gave 7 away but that was when I could still get the transformers I liked. And I tried to make them pretty.  This is using a Schiit LISST solid state tube just to see how it sounded.


Wow, beautiful. That is 7 VERY lucky people. Tell me about the sound if you don’t mind. Simply stunning!


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> Wow, beautiful. That is 7 VERY lucky people. Tell me about the sound if you don’t mind. Simply stunning!


Well I can tell more differences in tubes using this amp than others I tried. Tight bass with the proper tubes and a fairly linear sound across the entire audible spectrum.  Mids are especially good and the highs are quite airy especially when I use Focal Utopia headphones. I get about one watt out so I can run most headphones made and one friend even used his two with Susvara headphones. A gentleman I just got gear from has two of them and may be putting one up for sale, he is keeping the other.

This one...

Two Identical cabinets I made using three quarter inch birdseye maple, the box on the right is  of course VU meters I mounted separately. Dual volume controls so one channel can be tweaked higher or lower than the other. I tried to get the boxes to match so the one on the right has an ebony top, not an easy wood to work with. I am not very good describing sound but a few folks on here might be able to join in for a better explanation.


----------



## lupoal (Sep 28, 2022)

Hi,
I’ve a doubt about coming from modern tubes specs… I’ve read about NOS that sometimes, the same tube, was at the beginning 6SN7 and then, to cover market request (military market if I remember right), they went into the market as GTA and later GTB… now, the main difference in specs between a 6SN7 (Nos) and the version GTA/B is in the maximum plate voltage, called Ua, that in the NOS is around 300V, that become 400V (or more) for the GTA/B, and in the modern, for example JJ, is 450V

now the question: the value of 300V at the beginning was just because more was not requested from the market but the tube were already, in any case, able to work at higher values… or?

for example, about the Russian 6H8C I’m not able to find any data sheet … is it possible that was limited at only 300V?  considering the country of origin I’ve some doubts… another example, Linlai has a 6SN7 in production that is probably like the Shuguang… no info about Ua… is that because the modern tubes are all above 400V? This means that also that all the NOS are, in reality, above the 300V value?

thks for help


----------



## geoffalter11

Not sure how many folks in this thread have spoke about or heard the 1950s RCA 6SN7GTBs with Narrow Gap Plates.  They were a recommend from Ken Bullough who says it is his favorite RCA 6SN7 tube.  Honestly, I don't have the patience to go back through the 500 plus pages to see if this tube has been talked about.  I have 2 in my Icon HP8 and they are truly remarkable.  The tonality is so sweet, they image great and the soundstage is spectacular.  I won't say super wide, or deep or any of that.  Just pinpoint and oh so musical.  The bass of the Icon is already incredible, these tubes just add another layer of bass depth and solidity.  In short, I love these tubes.


----------



## jbua5150 (Sep 29, 2022)

@Paladin79 @ColSaulTigh
Thanks for all your experience and advice on the tube re-soldering.
I have a pair of MELZ that were noisy and microphonic in my Freya+.
They caused very loud pops to emit from the speakers upon powering up that scared the hell out of me.
I've since relegated them to storage, and read most if not all the posts covering the process of pin re-soldering.

I decided to practice on a 6F8G that read all zeros on the Amplitrex AT1000.
After removing the old and applying new solder, the 6F8G now reads as new!

Feeling a bit more confident, I moved on to the MELZ pair last night.
Again removing old and reapplying new solder.  I first tested the MELZ in my WA22, and no noise or microphonics were present!
Today I re-installed the MELZ into the Freya+ and am happy to report that they are dead silent now!

One 6SU7GTY that I purchased has a very slight crackling noise that won't go away by tapping on it, tonight I will re-solder that pair. 
Photos show 6F8G reading before and after re-soldering.
MELZ pins before, during and after re-soldering.


----------



## Paladin79

jbua5150 said:


> @Paladin79 @ColSaulTigh
> Thanks for all your experience and advice on the tube re-soldering.
> I have a pair of MELZ that were noisy and microphonic in my Freya+.
> They caused very loud pops to emit from the speakers upon powering up that scared the hell out of me.
> ...


I am so glad that worked well for you! Glad to help out.😄


----------



## SuperRoo

I concur. After resoldered my noisy Melz and it has been silent since in the Freya +. 
Thanks guys


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 29, 2022)

SuperRoo said:


> I concur. After resoldered my noisy Melz and it has been silent since in the Freya +.
> Thanks guys


The tubes are often 60+ years old but with a little love, they are exceptional. 😀 I heard many years ago about reflowing the solder but I decided replacing it made so much more sense.


----------



## bcowen

geoffalter11 said:


> These look to be 1956...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254217464183?hash=item3b308aa977:g:fsIAAOSwoQphpoA0&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoLatxvV8o9pHsN3f9SfDqRVyfhUrtXyT0WdU+IdrwnnS0iJyYZBMNeizuhSeDhUbcK9oHJvRDUSH+cd+r5K8hyLzshNGKhygYyY1iwhQi0fcZWS4vZ3RucktuhYrabbTCt5o/sxTUxNIbWwsD+l1IJ4nj01TSe/wdzCLidkflYe5H5Sa8ZqueFn9LpjaUKymEWoRU4/uAwmXXBViuScU5nM=|tkp:Bk9SR6SSlobwYA


The 6N12S is NOT a 6SN7 substitute.  It is close to a 6BL7 which has higher current draw than a 6SN7.  Beware of Ebay sellers listing comparable tubes...some are not only wrong but quite dangerously wrong.


----------



## geoffalter11

bcowen said:


> The 6N12S is NOT a 6SN7 substitute.  It is close to a 6BL7 which has higher current draw than a 6SN7.  Beware of Ebay sellers listing comparable tubes...some are not only wrong but quite dangerously wrong.


Thanks for letting me know. I wasn’t going to buy them anyhow. Looks like Melz tubes are difficult to source properly.


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> Thanks for letting me know. I wasn’t going to buy them anyhow. Looks like Melz tubes are difficult to source properly.


They are scarce and expensive. The war cost me my main contact.


----------



## geoffalter11

I just treat them as unobtainable.


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> I just treat them as unobtainable.


Never say never, I think James Bond said that.🤪


----------



## geoffalter11

Paladin79 said:


> Never say never, I think James Bond said that.🤪


Haha


----------



## sam6550a

bcowen said:


> The 6N12S is NOT a 6SN7 substitute.  It is close to a 6BL7 which has higher current draw than a 6SN7.  Beware of Ebay sellers listing comparable tubes...some are not only wrong but quite dangerously wrong.


A prime example of the fact that a little knowledge can be very dangerous.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jbua5150 said:


> @Paladin79 @ColSaulTigh
> Thanks for all your experience and advice on the tube re-soldering.
> I have a pair of MELZ that were noisy and microphonic in my Freya+.
> They caused very loud pops to emit from the speakers upon powering up that scared the hell out of me.
> ...


That's fantastic!

I'm no expert by any means, and I'm still dealing with a pair of Melz that refuse to behave.  But it's good to know others are now taking up the cause and putting a little effort in to save some really fantastic tubes!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Paladin79 said:


> They are scarce and expensive. The war cost me my main contact.


Andrii?


----------



## Paladin79

ColSaulTigh said:


> That's fantastic!
> 
> I'm no expert by any means, and I'm still dealing with a pair of Melz that refuse to behave.  But it's good to know others are now taking up the cause and putting a little effort in to save some really fantastic tubes!


I had one Melz I must have worked with five times before it straightened out, it is so hard to know the condition of the wire inside the pin even with an inspection microscope.


----------



## Paladin79

ColSaulTigh said:


> Andrii?


Nope, another gentleman.


----------



## PeterNL (Oct 1, 2022)

PeterNL said:


> Hello guys.
> Can someone help me to identify this beauty ?
> Hytron JAN-CHY 6SN7GT from 1951.
> I bought it for 10€ from my friend. Is this tube comparable to Sylvania, RCA, Tung-Sol...?



Update 1.10.2022

Today I got 2 another tubes delivered 
- Ken-Rad 6SN7GT
- Sylvania 6SN7GTB "Chrome top ?"

I'm going to test these and try to compare to Hytron (Bad boy ?)
Still waiting for Foton '54, Novosibirsk '70 and Melz '52 (non 1578) to be delivered from Ukraine.

Ken-Rad:












Sylvania:


----------



## Paladin79

I just built another audio rack and immediately filled it.🤪 5 6SN7’s and various other tubes.


----------



## Ranger Ron

Paladin79 said:


> I just built another audio rack and immediately filled it.🤪 5 6SN7’s and various other tubes.


I have something similar, but nowhere near as tidy!


----------



## geoffalter11

Ranger Ron said:


> I have something similar, but nowhere near as tidy!


Quite the set up!  Very cool!  Mine is so boring in comparison to all of these... 2 amps, 1 DAC and then a 2nd system with an Audio-GD R28.


----------



## jonathan c

geoffalter11 said:


> Quite the set up!  Very cool!  Mine is so boring** in comparison to all of these... 2 amps, 1 DAC and then a 2nd system with an Audio-GD R28.


** just visually 🤷🏻‍♂️… the enchantment begins with ‘ignition’…🪄🪄🪄


----------



## geoffalter11

jonathan c said:


> ** just visually 🤷🏻‍♂️… the enchantment begins with ‘ignition’…🪄🪄🪄


Indeed.  My system sounds sublime!  Just no fancy audio rack.  Just great components, headphones and music.


----------



## Paladin79

geoffalter11 said:


> Indeed.  My system sounds sublime!  Just no fancy audio rack.  Just great components, headphones and music.


I can add other pieces but this setup uses two tube class A amps, two tube headphone amps, a transport, turntable and DAC. Power is regulated to a constant 120 v on all gear, Sonus Faber speakers with REL subs. This is the sound I want. Tubes are also TOTL.😁


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> I can add other pieces but this setup uses two tube class A amps, two tube headphone amps, a transport, turntable and DAC. Power is regulated to a constant 120 v on all gear, Sonus Faber speakers with REL subs. *This is the sound I want. *Tubes are also TOTL.😁


Holy grail? No, wholly yours! What else matters?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I just built another audio rack and immediately filled it.🤪 *5 6SN7’s and various other tubes.*


Sweet!  I hope you put 6S*L*7's in the phono stage.  Gonna be mighty noisy with 6SN7's.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  I hope you put 6S*L*7's in the phono stage. Gonna be mighty noisy with 6SN7's.


Lol I best ask Finnegan.


----------



## jonathan c (Oct 2, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Lol I best *A*sk *F*innegan.


Not 6AF7s…?😳


----------



## triod750

Any good? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20327790...RC0MKTFSGDID8/MIGCX3qcQjV8|tkp:Bk9SR7rfhvLzYA


----------



## Paladin79

triod750 said:


> Any good? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203277903569?hash=item2f544ea6d1:gbQAAOSwWfxgHSZE&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4PtMchvhxYR5AmWcqVgafXASQddkkr5yMJLwy/GQFoTB8S18YLrDCLRSDYsSnPFp/Mvap4yoXtaO6jdvrzXqAsvI9JB5m/TeHXaDMcLVKormJNCyUnNekrN8LfhtWUUfhrgNLXoHxMsql+KdYU0qpTSCHfpaE696JsBADW3m+2w27X3ASDmUgXUrYR49X19lzyTGp7XKfx7alWfqrFZRT3ft6Mk6SP5orUS5KG+mi/mQ6YSp38Pf+rH+JMf1kazPZpAjAeDSw+u7aAXu9oRC0MKTFSGDID8/MIGCX3qcQjV8|tkp:Bk9SR7rfhvLzYA


The tubes are good but I am not sure they are $1,000 better than others I own.


----------



## triod750

How about $879 more?


----------



## Paladin79

triod750 said:


> How about $879 more?


An improvement.😀


----------



## triod750

I might take them for free if they are delivered to my door. That's what I call a real improvement!


----------



## Paladin79

triod750 said:


> I might take them for free if they are delivered to my door. That's what I call a real improvement!


I heard them for free since I built four identical amps for my 6sn7 tests. I only donated Melz and some other lesser brands.


----------



## triod750

That would be above my qualifications unfortunately. But I hope you will build another for @bcowen and send it to me. It would be wasted on him.


----------



## Paladin79

triod750 said:


> That would be above my qualifications unfortunately. But I hope you will build another for @bcowen and send it to me. It would be wasted on him.


I am done building for Cowen unless he wants cardboard. 😀


----------



## triod750

I don't mind cardboard but please no lamps. 

Sjöbergs of Sweden make good stuff!


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> Any good? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203277903569?hash=item2f544ea6d1:gbQAAOSwWfxgHSZE&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4PtMchvhxYR5AmWcqVgafXASQddkkr5yMJLwy/GQFoTB8S18YLrDCLRSDYsSnPFp/Mvap4yoXtaO6jdvrzXqAsvI9JB5m/TeHXaDMcLVKormJNCyUnNekrN8LfhtWUUfhrgNLXoHxMsql+KdYU0qpTSCHfpaE696JsBADW3m+2w27X3ASDmUgXUrYR49X19lzyTGp7XKfx7alWfqrFZRT3ft6Mk6SP5orUS5KG+mi/mQ6YSp38Pf+rH+JMf1kazPZpAjAeDSw+u7aAXu9oRC0MKTFSGDID8/MIGCX3qcQjV8|tkp:Bk9SR7rfhvLzYA


I was just quoted 800GBP each for the 12v version. I’m sure they are lovely but I’m not going to pay that kind of money. I spent that much on the transformers for my amps and those were expensive! Plus they are hopefully forever. There is a point of diminishing returns and those are a ways past that lol.


----------



## paradoxper

Isaacc7 said:


> I was just quoted 800GBP each for the 12v version. I’m sure they are lovely but I’m not going to pay that kind of money. I spent that much on the transformers for my amps and those were expensive! Plus they are hopefully forever. There is a point of diminishing returns and those are a ways past that lol.


Just come over to the halls of Elrog.


----------



## Paladin79

Isaacc7 said:


> I was just quoted 800GBP each for the 12v version. I’m sure they are lovely but I’m not going to pay that kind of money. I spent that much on the transformers for my amps and those were expensive! Plus they are hopefully forever. There is a point of diminishing returns and those are a ways past that lol.


I recently spent nearly $10,000 from my audio fund but my tube buying consisted of backups for a PrimaLuna , for $1,600 I could re-tube the whole amp and be happy with the sound. (14 tubes.)


----------



## Paladin79

triod750 said:


> I don't mind cardboard but please no lamps.
> 
> Sjöbergs of Sweden make good stuff!


You are so far away lol. One of my amps will be up for sale soon, the gentleman from whom I just bought gear has S/N 001 of my newest version.


----------



## triod750

Paladin79 said:


> You are so far away lol.


You are totally mistaken - I am right here!!


----------



## Paladin79

triod750 said:


> You are totally mistaken - I am right here!!


LOL no matter where you go, there you are.


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> I don't mind cardboard but please no lamps.
> 
> Sjöbergs of Sweden make good stuff!


The lamps are the only things that actually work.   🤣


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The lamps are the only things that actually work.   🤣


Hush I have someone convinced I might know about electronics, even though he hails from the land of ABBA.😂😂


----------



## DougD

paradoxper said:


> I sold a bunch recently but didn't think you'd be interested. They'll pop back up on eBay, ensure you're prudent with the seller.


Hah! The pair of Melz you kindly sold me will never end up on Ebay. 

They'll spend the rest of the their entire natural lives pampered here as honored guests, until the magic smoke escapes. Then I may have to frame them, in memories of the good times of the past. And if one should prematurely pass before its spouse, the survivor will continue to play special events at the Lyr facility for special seniors.


----------



## paradoxper

DougD said:


> Hah! The pair of Melz you kindly sold me will never end up on Ebay.
> 
> They'll spend the rest of the their entire natural lives pampered here as honored guests, until the magic smoke escapes. Then I may have to frame them, in memories of the good times of the past. And if one should prematurely pass before its spouse, the survivor will continue to play special events at the Lyr facility for special seniors.


The House of MELZ has spoken.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> LOL no matter where you go, there you are.


Yes, but if you don't know where you are going you may end up somewhere else!


----------



## mourip

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, but if you don't know where you are going you may end up somewhere else!


Thanks for that. I know that I feel a lot more like I do today than I did before!


----------



## Isaacc7

Anyone use a Fivre 6sn7? I just got in some 12sn7 labeled Marconi but Langrex says they are made by Fivre. Very initial thoughts is that it is a little warmer than the 14n7 or Bad Boy but lacking in the very top end. Balanced sound, decent bass and imaging. It reminds me of something but I can’t put my finger on it.


----------



## Paladin79

Isaacc7 said:


> Anyone use a Fivre 6sn7? I just got in some 12sn7 labeled Marconi but Langrex says they are made by Fivre. Very initial thoughts is that it is a little warmer than the 14n7 or Bad Boy but lacking in the very top end. Balanced sound, decent bass and imaging. It reminds me of something but I can’t put my finger on it.


I might consider it depending on price.🤪


----------



## Renexx

Isaacc7 said:


> Anyone use a Fivre 6sn7? I just got in some 12sn7 labeled Marconi but Langrex says they are made by Fivre. Very initial thoughts is that it is a little warmer than the 14n7 or Bad Boy but lacking in the very top end. Balanced sound, decent bass and imaging. It reminds me of something but I can’t put my finger on it.


I would say you bought a GEC tube. The date code on the glass and the box seem legit.




Fivre 6sn7gt(b) is on the right.
Warm sound, not especially good imaging or resolution. I prefer the Fivre 6v6 by far for my Euphoria amp.

A GEC B65/6sn7 has nice mids and highs. It's not overly warm like the fivre 6sn7.


----------



## Isaacc7

Renexx said:


> I would say you bought a GEC tube. The date code on the glass and the box seem legit.
> 
> 
> Fivre 6sn7gt(b) is on the right.
> ...


It would be very cool if this was actually a GEC if for no other reason than it would be a smoking deal. I do think my tube looks very similar to the one in the picture, plus Largrex actually said that it was Fivre tube. I appreciate that they didn’t try to sell it at GEC prices!


----------



## Isaacc7

Paladin79 said:


> I might consider it depending on price.🤪


The 12sn7 are going for around 50GPB at Langrex. Don’t think there have a Lot of them in stock though.


----------



## Isaacc7

Renexx said:


> I would say you bought a GEC tube. The date code on the glass and the box seem legit.
> 
> 
> Fivre 6sn7gt(b) is on the right.
> ...


I'm digging the tube in combination with the Cossor 807. The Cossor has a very detailed, open sound. When I pair them with inputs with a similar sound profile they give a very detailed and clear presentation. Putting in a warmer tube makes me think the clarity sounds a bit hifi, maybe even sterile? Or maybe it's just a more forgiving presentation. Super clarity means if the recording isn't up to snuff you'll hear all the bad stuff nice and clear.


----------



## Isaacc7

I’ve tried a few other *sn7 I do think the Fivre is a great combo with the Cossor 807. I’ll use the Fivre when I want a little warmer sound and the clear 14n7 when I want a more neutral sound.


----------



## mayurs

It's mentioned on the first page of this thread that National Union never made a VT231. So who made these?


----------



## ARCXENOS

12AU7 and 6F8G are suitable replacements for 6SN7 correct? I am thinking of getting a bunch of converters, any other fun suitable tube types I should consider too?


----------



## g0ldl10n (Oct 9, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> 12AU7 and 6F8G are suitable replacements for 6SN7 correct? I am thinking of getting a bunch of converters, any other fun suitable tube types I should consider too?


One that won't cost you an arm and a leg that I have found exceptional, is the Russian 6N1P-VI/E88CC tubes with the blue OTK stamp and where the top disk getter is connected to the top mica on both sides. Personally stocked up on lifetime supply of those myself. Highly recommend them.


----------



## g0ldl10n

mayurs said:


> It's mentioned on the first page of this thread that National Union never made a VT231. So who made these?


Pretty sure that was made by NU and possibly just re-labeled with VT231, like this one --> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275456533153


----------



## Isaacc7

ARCXENOS said:


> 12AU7 and 6F8G are suitable replacements for 6SN7 correct? I am thinking of getting a bunch of converters, any other fun suitable tube types I should consider too?


The 6j5 is half of a 6sn7. If you have the room a dual 6j5 to 6sn7 adapter can give you some amazing sounds. There’s a whole thread on those tubes here:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6j5-thread-l63-6c5-12j5-6p5-etc.934653/


----------



## bcowen

ARCXENOS said:


> 12AU7 and 6F8G are suitable replacements for 6SN7 correct? I am thinking of getting a bunch of converters, any other fun suitable tube types I should consider too?


+1 on the 6J5 adapter that @Isaacc7 noted.  If that fits, get a (dual) 7A4 adapter while you're stashing up. The 7A4 is half a 7N7, and the 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a different base (loctal).  And might as well get the 7N7 adapter too.   🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> +1 on the 6J5 adapter that @Isaacc7 noted.  If that fits, get a (dual) 7A4 adapter while you're stashing up. The 7A4 is half a 7N7, and the 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a different base (loctal).  And might as well get the 7N7 adapter too.   🤣


Are there different versions of the 7a4? The ones I have look to be the same as the round plate Sylvania 6j5gt. I haven’t gotten the 7a4 adapter because a) I already have a million adapters and b) thought they were the same as the Sylvania.


----------



## Isaacc7

bcowen said:


> +1 on the 6J5 adapter that @Isaacc7 noted.  If that fits, get a (dual) 7A4 adapter while you're stashing up. The 7A4 is half a 7N7, and the 7N7 is a 6SN7 with a different base (loctal).  And might as well get the 7N7 adapter too.   🤣


Yeah, if you like Sylvania 6sn7 a 7n7 adapter is a must. It also allows you to use the 7f7 instead of a 6sl7 as well.


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Are there different versions of the 7a4? The ones I have look to be the same as the round plate Sylvania 6j5gt. I haven’t gotten the 7a4 adapter because a) I already have a million adapters and b) thought they were the same as the Sylvania.


You know, I really don't know.    I've never done much research on the 7A4's, but as Sylvania and NU were the only manufacturers that made the 7N7, it stands to reason they may have also been the only two to make 7A4's as well.  I have several different brands of 7A4's, but they all look the same externally and only have differences in the mica shapes internally (that I can see), but that could be a vintage thing rather than a manufacturer thing.  They all sound quite good, but I've never done any direct A/B'ing between them.


----------



## triod750

Then you need adapters to adapt the adapters to other adapters. A lot of work before you...


----------



## bcowen

Isaacc7 said:


> Yeah, if you like Sylvania 6sn7 a 7n7 adapter is a must. It also allows you to use the 7f7 instead of a 6sl7 as well.


And a 7AF7, which has slightly less gain than the 7N7 (and 6SN7).


----------



## jonathan c

triod750 said:


> Then you need adapters to adapt the adapters to other adapters. A lot of work before you...


….adadadadpters…🤪


----------



## triod750

jonathan c said:


> ….adadadadpters…🤪


And then add adapters to them...


----------



## bcowen

triod750 said:


> And then add adapters to them...


There's no such thing as too many tubes adapters.


----------



## Isaacc7

I posted on one of these threads that I thought I was over buying tubes. Looked over the Billingham catalog and wasn't tempted by anything, the fever had broke! Well, turns out the only thing broke is me, placed my most expensive order yet from them shortly after lol. 

The good news is that I can do some more 12v flexing First up some Fivre 12sl7:







I have not heard anything at all about these tubes but they were inexpensive enough that I thought I'd take a gamble on them. Same goes for the next tubes:



They were listed as Hungarian made, not sure if I should be happy or sad that I got the English made ones instead. I'll list some more in the next post.


----------



## TLO

triod750 said:


> Then you need adapters to adapt the adapters to other adapters. A lot of work before you...


..and then, you might also need to change your amp with more space for the adapters...lmao


----------



## Isaacc7

I have heard plenty of good things about the next tubes, the Brimar 6sl7 has a lot of good press, the 12sl7 was a lot less expensive. I got some British ones and one Dutch. 







And finally I got some actual B36 tubes!












I'm really happy about these. They sell for a fraction of the price of the B65. In this particular case about a tenth of the price.


----------



## Isaacc7

Huh, just realized the "Made in England" Tungsram look exactly like the "Made in Holland" Brimar. So which do you think it is? Which one is a lie?


----------



## triod750

Isaacc7 said:


> I have heard plenty of good things about the next tubes, the Brimar 6sl7 has a lot of good press, the 12sl7 was a lot less expensive. I got some British ones and one Dutch.
> 
> 
> And finally I got some actual B36 tubes!
> ...


I pity you. Just think of all the hard work you have before you!!


----------



## LoryWiv

ARCXENOS said:


> 12AU7 and 6F8G are suitable replacements for 6SN7 correct? I am thinking of getting a bunch of converters, any other fun suitable tube types I should consider too?


Do you need an external heater in your amp. to run 12 V ?


----------



## ARCXENOS

LoryWiv said:


> Do you need an external heater in your amp. to run 12 V ?


No 12v replacement out of the box I believe

For now I ordered a pair of 12AU7 and 6F8G converters from deyan, from online pictures it looks like I have space for 6J5 adapters, but I imagine I'd need to get them matched as a quad right


----------



## LoryWiv

ARCXENOS said:


> No 12v replacement out of the box I believe
> 
> For now I ordered a pair of 12AU7 and 6F8G converters from deyan, from online pictures it looks like I have space for 6J5 adapters, but I imagine I'd need to get them matched as a quad right


Noted, I'm not familiar enough with Cayin HA-300b to be of much help but yes it seem logical that since 6J5 is a single triode you'd use a pair to replace one 6SN7 double triode. Perhaps Deyan or someone on Cayin forum can confirm...


----------



## jonathan c

This has NOTHING to do with 6SN7 tubes. This is for @bcowen and @Ripper2860 😜🤣. They can resolve this…🤪🤪…


----------



## JTbbb (Oct 10, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> I have heard plenty of good things about the next tubes, the Brimar 6sl7 has a lot of good press, the 12sl7 was a lot less expensive. I got some British ones and one Dutch.
> 
> 
> And finally I got some actual B36 tubes!
> ...


You can always tell a Brimar by looking at the top mica where you will see what looks like 4 pop rivets.. I believe only Brimar do this. Like these.


----------



## Isaacc7

JTbbb said:


> You can always tell a Brimar by looking at the top mica where you will see what looks like 4 pop rivets.. I believe only Brimar do this. Like these.


Maybe only Brimar does this but it doesn’t look like they do that will all of their tubes. I’m not seeing it on the ecc35 pictures I have seen.


----------



## JTbbb

Isaacc7 said:


> Maybe only Brimar does this but it doesn’t look like they do that will all of their tubes. I’m not seeing it on the ecc35 pictures I have seen.


It might be early Brimars. But more likely 6sn7’s


----------



## TLO

Isaacc7 said:


> Maybe only Brimar does this but it doesn’t look like they do that will all of their tubes. I’m not seeing it on the ecc35 pictures I have seen.


...becos Brimar doesn't make ECC35, it was only made by Mullard.


----------



## g0ldl10n

JTbbb said:


> You can always tell a Brimar by looking at the top mica where you will see what looks like 4 pop rivets.. I believe only Brimar do this. Like these.


Actually, I have some Mullard tubes which have this exact thing - they are not 6SN7 but are the only tubes/brand I have seen this on.


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> This has NOTHING to do with 6SN7 tubes. This is for @bcowen and @Ripper2860 😜🤣. They can resolve this…🤪🤪…


Ridiculous. The Judge should fine the person bringing the class action lawsuit and wasting people's time.
BTW...Arizona Iced Tea is made in New York and the founder has never visited Arizona, so there is that.


----------



## Isaacc7

TLO said:


> ...becos Brimar doesn't make ECC35, it was only made by Mullard.


Well ok, cv1985.


----------



## Isaacc7

Unsurprisingly, the GEC b36 paired with the Cossor 807 sounds exquisite. If I wanted to be super critical I could say they are a touch warm but that’s either good or bad depending on what you’re after. Everything is just so locked in, bass, highs, depth and width. Amazing. 

I do want to do some more critical comparisons with the Fivre 12sn7 and the grey glass 14n7 as well. All of them are on the warm side. Oh, I should also compare with the bl63 too. Wonder if I could be happy with any of them or if this tube has spoiled me. I understand why the b65 has the reputation it does and almost understand the prices they command I have two b36 tubes but alas they are completely different years and look completely different. My current amp only uses one input tube but my next one will need two. Will I spend the dough to get a pair? Hmm….


----------



## Isaacc7

A quick swap and I'm impressed at how similar the Fivre and the Marconi sound. Granted, they are both labeled Marconi b36. but Langrex says that the ones they sell are made by Fivre. The Fivre have a little more prominence in the lower treble. That can bring out some more details but also sound a little glaring at times. Other than that they are very similar. The metal based, grey glass b63 is a used tube while the Fivre is brand new FWIW.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> This has NOTHING to do with 6SN7 tubes. This is for @bcowen and @Ripper2860 😜🤣. They can resolve this…🤪🤪…


And as soon as that lawsuit is settled, they'll get sued by Pete for using his name without permission.   🤣


----------



## Isaacc7

Listened to the grey glass 14n7 last night. In comparison to the b63 tubes, the 14n7 adds the Sylvania top end but is a bit bass shy. In addition the image isn't as deep. It feels like the saturation has been turned down, the timbres aren't quite as riveting/intoxicating/whatever. Mind you I still got lost in the music last night so it's doing more well than bad. I'm going back to the old b63 for the next week or so before tackling the 12sl7 variations I got. The new b63 will be packaged back up and will await my new amp.


----------



## jonathan c

Some Icon Audio HP8 munitions…


----------



## paradoxper

MELZ and Elrog at the helm. I've concluded 6L6GC, 6SN7, 300B and perhaps 5V rolling. One more 5U to add. It doesn't get any better.


----------



## mayurs

RCA VT231 are excellent tubes to bring some lushness to the HE6SE. Will get a few more as back up.


----------



## JTbbb

paradoxper said:


> MELZ and Elrog at the helm. I've concluded 6L6GC, 6SN7, 300B and perhaps 5V rolling. One more 5U to add. It doesn't get any better.


Blimey! That tube would scare me…ready to…..


----------



## Thaddy

mayurs said:


> RCA VT231 are excellent tubes to bring some lushness to the HE6SE. Will get a few more as back up.


I have a few different pairs of RCA Gray Glass 6SN7/VT-231's and a pair of Sylvania VT-231's as well.  They're among my favorite tubes.


----------



## Galapac

jonathan c said:


> Some Icon Audio HP8 munitions…


Nice tubes and I know the seller by those boxes, very good seller to boot. Dare I say he is the Brent Jesse of 6SN7s?


----------



## paradoxper

JTbbb said:


> Blimey! That tube would scare me…ready to…..


Certainly wouldn't be an Elrog. Ha.


----------



## JTbbb

There have been so many pics and discussions about alternatives to the 6sn7 (which I say now has and is wonderful to read). Thought it about time to get a picture or two up of a pair of 6sn7’s, CKR 6sn7gt US NAVY Black Glass 1943, I bought in the spring for a very reasonable price, untested etc. They sounded stunning! And now I’m really pleased after receiving back from testing 😀.


----------



## g0ldl10n

JTbbb said:


> There have been so many pics and discussions about alternatives to the 6sn7 (which I say now has and is wonderful to read). Thought it about time to get a picture or two up of a pair of 6sn7’s, CKR 6sn7gt US NAVY Black Glass 1943, I bought in the spring for a very reasonable price, untested etc. They sounded stunning! And now I’m really pleased after receiving back from testing 😀.



Lovely looking pair of tubes you got there!

Oh, there are several alternatives that you can run in the 6SN7 socket that IMHO, have better SQ than vast majority of the popular 6SN7 tubes, and definitely a whole lot cheaper. I'd first suggest looking towards pentodes (two needed - so dual adapter) that can be strapped as triodes. This would be your least expensive route to explore first in comparison to dual triode types. 

For example 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/post-17052539


----------



## Isaacc7

Switched from the b36 to the bl36. Well, the cv1102 which is supposed to be the same tube. This tube has the same connections and pin out as a 6f8g so can use the same adapter. It has twice the heater requirement though, 1.3a vs .6a. It also has quite a bit lower amplification at 12 vs the 20 of the 6f8g. 

When paired with the same Cossor 807 tubes, the cv1102 has a very similar sound to the Marconi b36. Much more alike than different. Same warm tone, same lovely midrange and very British reserved highs. The b36 has noticeably better bass though. Come to think of it, all the *sn7 tubes I’ve been trying recently do. Anyway, if you’re looking for that great GEC/MOV midrange and laid back presentation, have an amp that can take the heater requirements, and don’t want to spend the money on the Osram/MOV b65, the bl63/cv1102/vr102 might be just the ticket. They aren’t cheap anymore but they are far less than the GEC b65.


----------



## keenerz

gosh I feel like I never stop buying tubes haha


----------



## jonathan c

keenerz said:


> gosh I feel like I never stop buying tubes haha


It’s better than leasing tubes 🤣 !


----------



## paradoxper

jonathan c said:


> It’s better than leasing tubes 🤣 !


Oh, is it?


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> It’s better than leasing tubes 🤣 !


The more the merrier 🤩🤩


----------



## TLO

What's wrong with this listing? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/394290645375
Speechless...


----------



## triod750

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6350.html
The stickers accidently adhered to the glass objects and the poor seller was fooled by this. What a pity!


----------



## TLO

triod750 said:


> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6350.html
> The stickers accidently adhered to the glass objects and the poor seller was fooled by this. What a pity!


That etched tube designation on the glass is a trademark of RCA.


----------



## triod750

We aren't as easily fooled. He neither, I suppose. But you never know.


----------



## shafat777

I have a few sets of 6sn7/VT231 tubes that i will part with if anyone is interested. PM me if youd like to know more. Currnetly i have listed my RCA grey glass VT231 for sale on classifieds


----------



## Galapac

TLO said:


> What's wrong with this listing?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/394290645375
> Speechless...


The 25 euro to ship. 😁


----------



## JeffMann (Oct 23, 2022)

I found a RCA grey-glass 6sn7GT tube for sale.

There was only one photo available.

I can see no identification markings indicating that it is even a 6sn7 tube.

What do you think? Is it a legitimate version of the grey-glass RCA 6sn7GT tube?

Jeff.


----------



## triod750

6N7 is a different tube with common cathode. https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6n7gt.html


----------



## JeffMann

triod750 said:


> 6N7 is a different tube with common cathode. https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6n7gt.html


Sorry - that was a typo error.

I corrected the typo error in my original post because it is listed as a 6sn7GT tube.

Jeff.


----------



## JTbbb

JeffMann said:


> I found a RCA grey-glass 6sn7GT tube for sale.
> 
> There was only one photo available.
> 
> ...


The RCA is slightly different. I have two pairs like this. Unless it’s going very cheap I personally would avoid, especially as they are readily available.


----------



## PeterNL (Oct 23, 2022)

I can buy these tubes for 80 euro incl. shipping, are they worth it ?
I am going to use one in Xduoo TA 26, are the measurements good enough to avoid channel inbalance ?

Already have good tubes but reading yours comments I really want to try RCA too.


----------



## JTbbb

PeterNL said:


> I can buy these tubes for 80 euro incl. shipping, are they worth it ?
> I am going to use one in Xduoo TA 26, are the measurements good enough to avoid channel inbalance ?
> 
> Already have good tubes but reading yours comments I really want to try RCA too.


I would say that is a good price. Doesn’t say which tester was used, but on the face of it those measurements look ok.


----------



## g0ldl10n

TLO said:


> What's wrong with this listing?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/394290645375
> Speechless...


Definitely just put this seller on my blacklist.. that's super messed up!


----------



## David222

PeterNL said:


> I can buy these tubes for 80 euro incl. shipping, are they worth it ?
> I am going to use one in Xduoo TA 26, are the measurements good enough to avoid channel inbalance ?
> 
> Already have good tubes but reading yours comments I really want to try RCA too.



Worst case scenario, if you don't like how they sound, you can hang them from your Christmas tree (soon) and resell the Foton to @bcowen


----------



## HTSkywalker

David222 said:


> Worst case scenario, if you don't like how they sound, you can hang them from your Christmas tree (soon) and resell the Foton to @bcowen


Or You can buy a whole 100 bulbs GE Christmas light and save few $   🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Or You can buy a whole 100 bulbs GE Christmas light and save few $   🤣🤣


But that would make your Christmas tree sound terrible.  My advice:  don't do it.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> But that would make your Christmas tree sound terrible.  My advice:  don't do it.


🎵 “Do you hear what I hear?” 🎶

🎼 “How to get through twelve days ♾ ?” 😵‍💫


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> But that would make your Christmas tree sound terrible.  My advice:  don't do it.


Buzzing......"All the way' 🤩🤩🤩🤩


----------



## Ranger Ron

Ok, this has now worked with multiple microphonic tubes that ‘ring’ through speakers.  Placing damping rings on the glass has done nothing to stop the ringing. But placing some sort of clamp on the base seems to do the trick.  I just want to share my experience, maybe it can help someone else out with similar issues.


----------



## Isaacc7

Ranger Ron said:


> Ok, this has now worked with multiple microphonic tubes that ‘ring’ through speakers.  Placing damping rings on the glass has done nothing to stop the ringing. But placing some sort of clamp on the base seems to do the trick.  I just want to share my experience, maybe it can help someone else out with similar issues.


That makes sense to me. The base is connected to the inner parts of the tube. Those vibrating cause noise, not the glass vibrating.


----------



## Somatic

Anyone selling their Melz, please let me know. thanks.


----------



## Somatic

Finally found some Melz 1578s. Wondering which years are the best. Guy has 63 and 84. Thanks.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Finally found some Melz 1578s. Wondering which years are the best. Guy has 63 and 84. Thanks.


Older is better.


----------



## bcowen

Somatic said:


> Finally found some Melz 1578s. Wondering which years are the best. Guy has 63 and 84. Thanks.


What @ColSaulTigh said.  And the '63 is actually one of the better sounding years overall.


----------



## Somatic

bcowen said:


> What @ColSaulTigh said.  And the '63 is actually one of the better sounding years overall.


Cool. Will work on getting 1 or 2 matched pair of the 63s.


----------



## Orange5o

Here's a silly aesthetic question...vt231s are what I'm looking at, rca gray glass and kenrad which I think are black glass. Can you see the tube glow on the dark glass tubes like these?


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Oct 31, 2022)

Orange5o said:


> Here's a silly aesthetic question...vt231s are what I'm looking at, rca gray glass and kenrad which I think are black glass. Can you see the tube glow on the dark glass tubes like these?


Not really.  On the RCA Grey Glass, just a little bit above the top plate.  I'm looking at picking up a pair of the Ken Rad myself.  I just bought a pair of Tung Sol "Black Beauty" and should be able to let you know about those in a week or so.  My guess is they'll be about the same as the RCA though.

I'll look through my pics and see if I have one of the RCA's.

edit: found a couple of the RCA Grey Glass -


----------



## Orange5o

Thanks!


----------



## Orange5o

Question for the Melz masters Cowen and Paladin... hunting one good one for a Lyr+... would you say either of these would be a decent buy or not the good ones? I really want to try one but don't want to go too overboard since it's a hybrid amp... thanks

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3044441106...4ZWcmhiRrq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2659567757...4ZWcmhiRrq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


----------



## bcowen

Orange5o said:


> Question for the Melz masters Cowen and Paladin... hunting one good one for a Lyr+... would you say either of these would be a decent buy or not the good ones? I really want to try one but don't want to go too overboard since it's a hybrid amp... thanks
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3044441106...4ZWcmhiRrq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2659567757...4ZWcmhiRrq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


@Paladin79 is the Melz master....I only play one on TV.   🤣 

If you're wanting the best of the Melz in this tube type, that would be the 1578.  Neither of those listings are 1578's -- they are both the regular 6N8S.  The 6N8S is a good sounding tube, it's just not to the same level as the 1578.  The price on the first listing is absolutely ridiculous.  You can find true 1578's for that or even less.  The price on the second listing is high, but not stupidly high seeing that's it's a '50's vintage.


----------



## Paladin79

Orange5o said:


> Question for the Melz masters Cowen and Paladin... hunting one good one for a Lyr+... would you say either of these would be a decent buy or not the good ones? I really want to try one but don't want to go too overboard since it's a hybrid amp... thanks
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3044441106...4ZWcmhiRrq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2659567757...4ZWcmhiRrq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


It’s nice of Mr. Cowen to defer to me.🤪 I just happened to talk to someone yesterday who has five Melz he will be selling that are the sought after variety but they are not cheap. What you show from EBay I would consider a 3-4 out of ten. If $200-$250 is not an issue PM @FLTWS and mention you talked to me and he might help. If you mention Cowen the guy may flee to Tierra Del Fuego.😁😁


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Cool. Will work on getting 1 or 2 matched pair of the 63s.


With Elrog and MELZ, you're at a different level.


----------



## Somatic

Paladin79 said:


> It’s nice of Mr. Cowen to defer to me.🤪 I just happened to talk to someone yesterday who has five Melz he will be selling that are the sought after variety but they are not cheap. What you show from EBay I would consider a 3-4 out of ten. If $200-$250 is not an issue PM @FLTWS and mention you talked to me and he might help. If you mention Cowen the guy may flee to Tierra Del Fuego.😁😁


I got dibs on @FLTWS stock on Melz. At least that was what he told me this weekend.


----------



## Paladin79

Somatic said:


> I got dibs on @FLTWS stock on Melz. At least that was what he told me this weekend.


Sorry I did not recognize your ID right away. He is someone you can trust, I visited him in September and bought a lot of gear and he will be selling more great 6SN7’s down the road.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It’s nice of Mr. Cowen to defer to me.🤪 I just happened to talk to someone yesterday who has five Melz he will be selling that are the sought after variety but they are not cheap. What you show from EBay I would consider a 3-4 out of ten. If $200-$250 is not an issue PM @FLTWS and mention you talked to me and he might help. *If you mention Cowen the guy may flee to Tierra Del Fuego.*😁😁


If *I* mention me, can I go there?  Looks like more fun than Atlanta.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If *I* mention me, can I go there?  Looks like more fun than Atlanta.


🤪🤪🤪


----------



## LoryWiv (Nov 1, 2022)

Orange5o said:


> Here's a silly aesthetic question...vt231s are what I'm looking at, rca gray glass and kenrad which I think are black glass. Can you see the tube glow on the dark glass tubes like these?


Yes, as @ColSaulTigh  demonstrated pictorially BUT note tube glow varies and does not necessarily correlate with the tube's "health" or performance.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> If *I* mention me, can I go there?  Looks like more fun than Atlanta.


As long as you mention @Paladin79 as your reference 😃


----------



## Orange5o

Paladin79 said:


> It’s nice of Mr. Cowen to defer to me.🤪 I just happened to talk to someone yesterday who has five Melz he will be selling that are the sought after variety but they are not cheap. What you show from EBay I would consider a 3-4 out of ten. If $200-$250 is not an issue PM @FLTWS and mention you talked to me and he might help. If you mention Cowen the guy may flee to Tierra Del Fuego.😁😁


After messaging him, it's possible I'll purchase a certain Birdseye two box amp he has...😯


----------



## Paladin79

Orange5o said:


> After messaging him, it's possible I'll purchase a certain Birdseye two box amp he has...😯


I can help if you have questions. Here is a current birdseye project in hard maple.


----------



## Orange5o

Paladin79 said:


> I can help if you have questions. Here is a current birdseye project in hard maple.


I will PM you about it, thank you!


----------



## Somatic

ilikepooters said:


> it's worth touching a hot soldering iron to each pin to reflow the solder.


I this all thats needed to relow the pins? Anything to look out for? So easy for a novice to do? Was going to ask a vintage shop to do this ... hmmm

@Paladin79 thoughts? I saw that you changed the solder?


----------



## Paladin79

Somatic said:


> I this all thats needed to relow the pins? Anything to look out for? So easy for a novice to do? Was going to ask a vintage shop to do this ... hmmm
> 
> @Paladin79 thoughts? I saw that you changed the solder?


I do change the solder and use liquid rosin to clean the inside of the pins. It is a more involved process but if solder breaks down after say 60 years of use, I want fresh solder inside the pins. Also in soldering there is not much rosin left after all that time and it is needed to get the metals to bond well. Russian tubes are particularly bad IMHO, if you want to try to re-solder any yourself I can walk you through it or you can look for some of the previous posts on the subject.


----------



## Somatic

Paladin79 said:


> I do change the solder and use liquid rosin to clean the inside of the pins. It is a more involved process but if solder breaks down after say 60 years of use, I want fresh solder inside the pins. Also in soldering there is not much rosin left after all that time and it is needed to get the metals to bond well. Russian tubes are particularly bad IMHO, if you want to try to re-solder any yourself I can walk you through it or you can look for some of the previous posts on the subject.


I see. And the other easy method is to put a soldering iron on the pins to reflow it? But that is not your preference? Any video previously posted on how to do either of these methods? Thanks.


----------



## Paladin79

Somatic said:


> I see. And the other easy method is to put a soldering iron on the pins to reflow it? But that is not your preference? Any video previously posted on how to do either of these methods? Thanks.


No videos that I know of and yes even reflowing the solder could work at times.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> I this all thats needed to relow the pins? Anything to look out for? So easy for a novice to do? Was going to ask a vintage shop to do this ... hmmm
> 
> @Paladin79 thoughts? I saw that you changed the solder?


Oh, it's not quite that simple with the Melz tubes I've been working on....

I've had to remove all the old solder, clean thoroughly with flux, redo the solder, and repeat (1 tube fixed on the 1st try, a second is now on it's 4th try...).  I've found with the Melz specifically, seems to need a hotter-than-normal temp to get all the old solder off the wire inside the pin.  YMMV.


----------



## Paladin79

ColSaulTigh said:


> Oh, it's not quite that simple with the Melz tubes I've been working on....
> 
> I've had to remove all the old solder, clean thoroughly with flux, redo the solder, and repeat (1 tube fixed on the 1st try, a second is now on it's 4th try...).  I've found with the Melz specifically, seems to need a hotter-than-normal temp to get all the old solder off the wire inside the pin.  YMMV.


I generally use 800 degrees F myself so I have had few issues unless inside the pins needed a few cleanings. I can get by at 700 degrees.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Paladin79 said:


> I generally use 800 degrees F myself so I have had few issues unless inside the pins needed a few cleanings. I can get by at 700 degrees.


I'd been using 800* myself, but this one tube has been very stubborn.  850-875* seems to do the trick.  I make sure I can move the center wire freely - if it's still stuck to the inside of the tube, it needs more work...the one I'm working on now is being particularly stubborn.  I thought I had it, but it developed the SCP after a few minutes of listening.  Very frustrating.  I KNOW it can be tamed, maybe 5th time is a charm...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I generally use 800 degrees F myself so I have had few issues unless inside the pins needed a few cleanings. I can get by at 700 degrees.


I use 750 degrees.  Mostly because that's what the soldering station is set to and I forgot how to change it.   🤣  🤣


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I use 750 degrees.  Mostly because that's what the soldering station is set to and I forgot how to change it.   🤣  🤣


It’s a wonder you made it this far in life.🤪🤪


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I _have and _use 750 degrees**.  🤣  🤣


** All of them are honourary 📜📜📜….*E*ducation = *M*issed *C*lasses *^2* … 🧐


----------



## LoryWiv

ColSaulTigh said:


> I'd been using 800* myself, but this one tube has been very stubborn.  850-875* seems to do the trick.  I make sure I can move the center wire freely - if it's still stuck to the inside of the tube, it needs more work...the one I'm working on now is being particularly stubborn.  I thought I had it, but it developed the *SCP* after a few minutes of listening.  Very frustrating.  I KNOW it can be tamed, maybe 5th time is a charm...


I am very poor with TLA's (Three Letter Acronyms),. Please help out a solder novice. What is SCP?


----------



## incredulousity

Snap Crackle Pop


----------



## LoryWiv

incredulousity said:


> Snap Crackle Pop


Good on your breakfast table, very bad in your audio rig.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I can help if you have questions. Here is a current birdseye project in hard maple.


Wondering if the turntable itself is hand-made too 🙄🙄


----------



## HTSkywalker

LoryWiv said:


> I am very poor with TLA's (Three Letter Acronyms),. Please help out a solder novice. What is SCP?


Short Circuit Protection


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> Wondering if the turntable itself is hand-made too 🙄🙄


No, it is made by Pro-Ject. A Swedish company I believe.


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> No, it is made by Pro-Ject. A Swedish company I believe.


Czech Republic


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> No, it is made by Pro-Ject. A Swedish company I believe.


I believe Austrian Czech


----------



## Paladin79

jonathan c said:


> Czech Republic


You are right, I must have been thinking of another TT I was researching when I caught a deal on this. I considered a used SOL but could not find one at the time.


----------



## triod750

In Sweden Pro-Ject comes from Austria.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Few personalized models :
https://pro-jectusa.com/product/the-beatles-yellow-submarine/
https://pro-jectusa.com/product/essential-iii-turntable-george-harrison/
https://pro-jectusa.com/product/metallica-turntable/


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2022)

triod750 said:


> In Sweden Pro-Ject comes from Austria.


This version sells for about $700 I think, RPM -1.3, I got it for the value of the Grado Blue cartridge that was installed.

https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Ject-RM-...mzn1.fos.2b70bf2b-6730-4ccf-ab97-eb60747b8daf

I was basically looking for something minimalistic that I could adapt.


----------



## jonathan c

A little bit of both: Pro-Ject is located in Mistelbach, Austria with manufacturing facilities in Czech Republic.


----------



## Somatic

What can one use to clean the glass on the tubes? For examples if smudges get on it for mistake. Also any advise to clean the old pins? Thanks.


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 2, 2022)

Somatic said:


> What can one use to clean the glass on the tubes? For examples if smudges get on it for mistake. Also any advise to clean the old pins? Thanks.


For the glass, you might try Windex. Be careful not to remove print on the glass. That will adversely affect resale value. For the pins, I have used _Barkeeper’s Friend _then isopropyl alcohol. PS, keep the pins pointing downwards during cleaning.


----------



## paradoxper (Nov 2, 2022)

Somatic said:


> What can one use to clean the glass on the tubes? For examples if smudges get on it for mistake. Also any advise to clean the old pins? Thanks.


Use #0000 steel wool for the glass. And use FybRglass eraser for pins.


----------



## Somatic

paradoxper said:


> Use #0000 steel wool for the glass. And use FybRglass eraser for pins.


Fine or coarse grade FybRglass brush? Thank you.


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Fine or coarse grade FybRglass brush? Thank you.


Fine.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> What can one use to clean the glass on the tubes? For examples if smudges get on it for mistake. Also any advise to clean the old pins? Thanks.


For the glass, I use a clean microfiber cloth and a light touch.  Don't use any solvents, as the printing will come right off (most of the time).  For the pins, I use a dremel and some brass brushes (low speed).


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> For the glass, I use a clean microfiber cloth and a light touch.  Don't use any solvents, as the printing will come right off (most of the time).  For the pins, I use a dremel and some brass brushes (low speed).


I use a hand held brass bristled brush. 

Finnegan and I just set up a tube power amp with a headphone box that lets you use most any power amp as a headphone amp. I am using a power amp I designed along with a preamp stage from one of my Incubus amp. 6SN7’s are involved and will be when I run a Freya + to a Cary power amp.😁😁


----------



## g0ldl10n

jbua5150 said:


> @Paladin79 @ColSaulTigh
> Thanks for all your experience and advice on the tube re-soldering.
> I have a pair of MELZ that were noisy and microphonic in my Freya+.
> They caused very loud pops to emit from the speakers upon powering up that scared the hell out of me.
> ...


Thanks for sharing this! I was able to successfully resurrect a Sylvania 6C8G where the right channel sounded normal, but the left was barely audible sound coming thru it. Resoldered the pins, and _voila! _Works perfectly! 

Only wish I had known about this before tossing a few tubes that I thought were done for - oh well, great to know now!


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jbua5150 said:


> @Paladin79 @ColSaulTigh
> Thanks for all your experience and advice on the tube re-soldering.
> I have a pair of MELZ that were noisy and microphonic in my Freya+.
> They caused very loud pops to emit from the speakers upon powering up that scared the hell out of me.
> ...


I must have missed this post - thank you so much for the kind words, but all credit goes to @Paladin79.  His encouragement, along with a few others, convinced me this wasn't rocket science.  In fact, the Amazon fairy brought me a new vice to play with this weekend for this very task!

I will attempt to make a video, but it's really not all that difficult.  Hot iron, heat until the solder melts, and use a sucker to suck it out.  Then flux, heat it up, add new solder, and you should be good to go!

There is so much wisdom in this forum (and others on Head-fi), just have to invest time to read and experiment.  If you're worried about messing something up, go buy a few junk ones at a surplus store and practice.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Nov 2, 2022)

So for tonight's listening pleasure I bring you a NOS JAN CKR 6SNGT 1944 boxes with Tung Sol 6SN7GT black beauties in them!


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Czech Republic


Good grief.  First we're talking SCP Rice Krispies, and now we're talking Chex.  Did you guys miss breakfast this morning?   🤣


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It’s a wonder you made it this far in life.🤪🤪


That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.   🤣


----------



## lupoal (Nov 6, 2022)

Hi, could you help me in recognizing this tube? I've already seen that "bridge" on the top but can't remeber the brand (they declare RCA but imho is something rebranded)... thks for help


----------



## triod750

I have one Ken-Rad 6C8G with staggered ladder plates and code V2 (V above 2).

I have another K-R 6C8G with round plates and code E3 (E above 3).

Date codes, I guess. What do they mean? Yes ,please .


----------



## g0ldl10n (Nov 8, 2022)

lupoal said:


> Hi, could you help me in recognizing this tube? I've already seen that "bridge" on the top but can't remeber the brand (they declare RCA but imho is something rebranded)... thks for help


This is an RCA just like this one. 





You may be thinking of the GE Coinbase 6SN7 GTB tubes with the top bridge part tho.


----------



## mordy

lupoal said:


> Hi, could you help me in recognizing this tube? I've already seen that "bridge" on the top but can't remeber the brand (they declare RCA but imho is something rebranded)... thks for help


As stated, this is a RCA tube. In the past I found it to be very good sounding. There are other RCA tubes from the same time period without that little heater bridge on top, but they don't sound as good IMHO.


----------



## mordy

triod750 said:


> I have one Ken-Rad 6C8G with staggered ladder plates and code V2 (V above 2).
> 
> I have another K-R 6C8G with round plates and code E3 (E above 3).
> 
> Date codes, I guess. What do they mean? Yes ,please .


Here is the key to the first code V2:
_Military letters were Z-V-T-N (quarter 1-2-3-4). So V4 would be second quarter of 1944. There's no 'R' so it's an OEM tube. If it was V4R it would mean it was a replacement._ 
In other words, V2 is second quarter 1942.

Re the E3 code it should be May 1943. Is there a M-R code on that tube as well?


----------



## triod750

Thanks Mordy. No Manufacturers-Replacement code on E3   .
These tubes sound good in spite of being pretty old. As @gibosi always tells us, older is better.


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> Here is the key to the first code V2:
> _Military letters were Z-V-T-N (quarter 1-2-3-4). So V4 would be second quarter of 1944. There's no 'R' so it's an OEM tube. If it was V4R it would mean it was a replacement._
> In other words, V2 is second quarter 1942.
> 
> Re the E3 code it should be May 1943. Is there a M-R code on that tube as well?


Maybe there is a need to clarify the letters M-R that you sometimes see on old tubes. During WWII the military used most of the tubes, but a certain percentage was set aside for civilian replacement use during the years1942-1945. M-R means *M*anufacturers *R*eplacement. So if you se those letters on a tube you can date it within a couple of years.
Which brings us to the mysterious VT designation on military tubes. We have all seen VT-231, VT-96 etc etc on tubes. But what do these letters really mean? 
The military, for bookkeeping and inventory purposes, had to use their own terminology. VT-231 = 6SN7, and VT-96 = 6N7 and so on.
After an exhaustive in-depth research into many obscure sources, it was finally discovered what VT means -
*V*acuum *T*ube.


----------



## lupoal

@g0ldl10n @mordy 

thank you


----------



## g0ldl10n

Hey, it is probably in this thread or on this forum somewhere, but don't have lots of time to search, so apologies if this is repeated question. But does anyone know how to easily "fix" or re-glue a loose base on a tube? You know, the plastic part at the bottom - a lot of these older tubes will function fine, but the base will be a bit loose, and I was hoping there might be a simple way to go about getting that glued back down again.


----------



## JTbbb

g0ldl10n said:


> Hey, it is probably in this thread or on this forum somewhere, but don't have lots of time to search, so apologies if this is repeated question. But does anyone know how to easily "fix" or re-glue a loose base on a tube? You know, the plastic part at the bottom - a lot of these older tubes will function fine, but the base will be a bit loose, and I was hoping there might be a simple way to go about getting that glued back down again.


I have in the past used a medium viscosity cyno to wick into the base from where the bulb joins. Or perhaps a thinner viscosity if that joint is a little tighter. Has worked very well. Just keep an eye on it when it warms up for the first time.


----------



## triod750

And some use 'Sally Hansen Hard as Nails' or some such. I have done this to good effect.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Liquid (not the gel) super glue.


----------



## Ranger Ron

g0ldl10n said:


> Hey, it is probably in this thread or on this forum somewhere, but don't have lots of time to search, so apologies if this is repeated question. But does anyone know how to easily "fix" or re-glue a loose base on a tube? You know, the plastic part at the bottom - a lot of these older tubes will function fine, but the base will be a bit loose, and I was hoping there might be a simple way to go about getting that glued back down again.


Acetone(finger nail polish remover) it must ‘reactivate’ the original cement used.  It works most of the time.  I use a small paint brush, dip it in the acetone and run the brush carefully along the edge of the base so it flows in. Then either rubber band it tight or just hold it firmly in your hand for as long as you can stand it.


----------



## mordy (Nov 9, 2022)

Ranger Ron said:


> Acetone(finger nail polish remover) it must ‘reactivate’ the original cement used.  It works most of the time.  I use a small paint brush, dip it in the acetone and run the brush carefully along the edge of the base so it flows in. Then either rubber band it tight or just hold it firmly in your hand for as long as you can stand it.


I had good results with a liquid crazy glue that I brushed on sparingly between the socket and the glass. Somebody said the crazy glue is conductive but I never had any problems. Once brushed on, hold in place for a minute and then let it dry 12-24 hours standing up. If necessary, secure with rubber bands etc.




Can also be used to glue a lose anode cap in place. I found that a number of old ST type tubes, especially European ones, could have lose bases.


----------



## TLO

Ranger Ron said:


> Acetone(finger nail polish remover) it must ‘reactivate’ the original cement used.  It works most of the time.  I use a small paint brush, dip it in the acetone and run the brush carefully along the edge of the base so it flows in. Then either rubber band it tight or just hold it firmly in your hand for as long as you can stand it.


+1 no mess
I made a stand using a small piece of cardboard. Place the tube on stand upright and leave it on top of the amp to dry while I enjoy my music.


----------



## ThanatosVI

I have a noob question.
Socket and pin choice, which effect do they have?

Let's say a manufacturer has a 6SN7 tube and then makes a Version of it with ceramik socket and Gold Pins, will there be any difference to other sockets and Pins?


----------



## TLO

ThanatosVI said:


> I have a noob question.
> Socket and pin choice, which effect do they have?
> 
> Let's say a manufacturer has a 6SN7 tube and then makes a Version of it with ceramik socket and Gold Pins, will there be any difference to other sockets and Pins?


I will let others chime in on their experiences but please correct me if I have misunderstood you, I think you are talking about tube base or just base and not socket.
This is a base...



These are sockets...


----------



## ThanatosVI

TLO said:


> I will let others chime in on their experiences but please correct me if I have misunderstood you, I think you are talking about tube base or just base and not socket.
> This is a base...
> 
> These are sockets...


Base, or in my noob words "part of the tube not of the amp"


----------



## TLO

ThanatosVI said:


> Base, or in my noob words "part of the tube not of the amp"


IMHO, I think no one really cares whether the base is made of ceramic, Bakelite or PTFE / Teflon, most people only care whether the tube sounds good or not...


----------



## JTbbb

ThanatosVI said:


> Base, or in my noob words "part of the tube not of the amp"


The only thing I have come across regarding base material, is in regards to some materials may be more efficient at preventing the heat from the tube transferring to the amp. It’s possibly of benefit, but the electronic components under the top plate are going to be warm anyway.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JTbbb said:


> The only thing I have come across regarding base material, is in regards to some materials may be more efficient at preventing the heat from the tube transferring to the amp. It’s possibly of benefit, but the electronic components under the top plate are going to be warm anyway.



True, I did notice that my metal base 6080s result in a hotter amp top plate than the plastic base equivalents like 5998, 421A or 6AS7G. Even though those are supposed to draw more power?


----------



## mordy (Nov 10, 2022)

CaptainFantastic said:


> True, I did notice that my metal base 6080s result in a hotter amp top plate than the plastic base equivalents like 5998, 421A or 6AS7G. Even though those are supposed to draw more power?


As mentioned, it does not seem to make much of a difference with different materials.
That said, I remember reading that tube bases made of something called Micanol(?) were supposed to be less microphonic. Also, some tube pins such as the Russian rhodium plated ones, seem to be more resistant to corrosion.
Some time back I did an experiment with different 6AS7/6080 tubes. Even though they draw the same current, some tubes (especially the 6080WB graphite plate) get hotter than others.
Using socket savers dissipates the heat from the tubes and lowers the chassis temperature.


----------



## Isaacc7

ThanatosVI said:


> I have a noob question.
> Socket and pin choice, which effect do they have?
> 
> Let's say a manufacturer has a 6SN7 tube and then makes a Version of it with ceramik socket and Gold Pins, will there be any difference to other sockets and Pins?


The base doesn’t make any different for audio. You’ll see some references to “low loss” micinol bases (I think). Those apparently could help in certain applications. I’m guessing things like use in measuring equipment and maybe RF work were more sensitive to something that audio isn’t. The only upside to gold pins is that they don’t corrode.


----------



## jonathan c

Any reason why silver could not be used (have been used) for tube pins? Highest conductivity, resistance to corrosion. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## CaptainFantastic

jonathan c said:


> Any reason why silver could not be used (have been used) for tube pins? Highest conductivity, resistance to corrosion. 🤷🏻‍♂️



My understanding is that silver fares quite badly with the passage of time. It's not corrosion but something else.

See here:

"The primary disadvantage of silver is that silver is a semi-precious metal and forms sulfur compounds such as silver sulfide or tarnish which can affect the conductivity of the silver electrodeposit over time."

advancedplatingtech.com/blog/what-is-the-difference-between-gold-vs-silver-plated-connectors-or-contacts/


----------



## Homrsimson

Hey all, I’m thinking of adding a freya + to my chain and am looking for the following tubes:

MELZ 1578 perforated
Rca grey glass
Ken-Rad VT-231
Quality Hytron

If anybody has good matched tubes please shoot me a note. I would also consider running quad 1578’s for the right price. Thanks


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Homrsimson said:


> Hey all, I’m thinking of adding a freya + to my chain and am looking for the following tubes:
> 
> MELZ 1578 perforated
> Rca grey glass
> ...


Good luck finding quad 1578's - they're more rare than hen's teeth right now.

I just picked up some Tung Sol Black Glass on eBay for around $150/pr, you can probably find those, KR's, and the RCA Grey's for around the same price.


----------



## TLO

Does anyone know where can I find these GEC stickers? I am going to stick them onto some GE tubes and sell them to @bcowen


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Does anyone know where can I find these GEC stickers? I am going to stick them onto some GE tubes and sell them to @bcowen


LOL!  Please be sure they're genuine GE's and not the Russkie shown on the left.  

(truth be told, I'd rather have the Russian tube)   🤣  🤣


----------



## triod750

Notice the difference in message on the two stickers.


----------



## DougD

TLO said:


> Does anyone know where can I find these GEC stickers? I am going to stick them onto some GE tubes and sell them to @bcowen



He's aware of your cunning plot.

...

...

...

Think it might work anyway?


----------



## mordy

TLO said:


> Does anyone know where can I find these GEC stickers? I am going to stick them onto some GE tubes and sell them to @bcowen


Some years back there was an Australian fellow interested in high end tube stuff on various Head-Fi threads. He had a company that made stickers, but I haven't seen any posts from him for a while.
But it has to look this:



JUST KIDDING!


----------



## jonathan c

DougD said:


> He's aware of your cunning plot.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I hate to break this to you…….there’s Bangybang / cartago_delenda_est / menifee ….🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## g0ldl10n

So was just wondering if this is one of those famed Sylvania 3 hole "Badboy" 6SN7 tubes. 

There is no EIA number on it, and labeled as "Viking - Standard Brand". I was just going through my 6SN7 collection I haven't reached for in awhile and came across this tube.

Labeled 6SN7 GTA on top. The date code is unfortunately unreadable.


----------



## Isaacc7

g0ldl10n said:


> So was just wondering if this is one of those famed Sylvania 3 hole "Badboy" 6SN7 tubes.
> 
> There is no EIA number on it, and labeled as "Viking - Standard Brand". I was just going through my 6SN7 collection I haven't reached for in awhile and came across this tube.
> 
> Labeled 6SN7 GTA on top. The date code is unfortunately unreadable.


The so called bad boy is a different tube. The first big thing that is different is that the bad boy has the getter on the bottom. They are worth hearing if you get a good price. That is harder and harder to do.


----------



## g0ldl10n

Having trouble finding a specific 5692 comparison - there's obviously still debate on who actually manufactured these tubes, and which ones have the best SQ. 

Does anyone here have any experience comparing Westinghouse 5692 to the others (GE, RCA, CBS, SYL  etc.)? Would be interested in hearing opinions on this.


----------



## Sampajanna

ColSaulTigh said:


> Good luck finding quad 1578's - they're more rare than hen's teeth right now.
> 
> I just picked up some Tung Sol Black Glass on eBay for around $150/pr, you can probably find those, KR's, and the RCA Grey's for around the same price.


Wow that seems like a cheap find or am I missing something? All the black TS 6SN7 I see are in the 600-800 a pair range.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Sampajanna said:


> Wow that seems like a cheap find or am I missing something? All the black TS 6SN7 I see are in the 600-800 a pair range.


There are some deals to be had if you do a little digging.


----------



## Ayaka

ColSaulTigh said:


>



wow! this is beautiful 😍. What tubes are these? Are all big-bottle tubes doing this glowing effect in the dark?? would think about spending the money to get some LinLai Elite 6sn7 if it's the case (because I heard they also sound really good!)


----------



## JTbbb

Sampajanna said:


> Wow that seems like a cheap find or am I missing something? All the black TS 6SN7 I see are in the 600-800 a pair range.


I could do a pair for half that 👍


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Ayaka said:


> wow! this is beautiful 😍. What tubes are these? Are all big-bottle tubes doing this glowing effect in the dark?? would think about spending the money to get some LinLai Elite 6sn7 if it's the case (because I heard they also sound really good!)


Those are Western Electric 300B tubes in my Woo Audio WA5-LE amplifier.  Not all do this, mostly the WE's and some Takatsuki 300B's will do it (as well as a few others).  It's an effect caused by some electrons hitting the glass.  You can read more about it *HERE*


----------



## JTbbb

ColSaulTigh said:


> I just picked up some Tung Sol Black Glass on eBay for around $150/pr


Crickey, that was a lucky find! A matching pair testing at NOS or close to? Not rebranded?


----------



## Ayaka

ColSaulTigh said:


> Those are Western Electric 300B tubes in my Woo Audio WA5-LE amplifier.  Not all do this, mostly the WE's and some Takatsuki 300B's will do it (as well as a few others).  It's an effect caused by some electrons hitting the glass.  You can read more about it *HERE*


Oh thanks for the link, will read it! Unfortunately my amp is not using 300B tubes... only 6sl7, 6sn7 and el34.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

JTbbb said:


> Crickey, that was a lucky find! A matching pair testing at NOS or close to? Not rebranded?


I got lucky on a bid.  They are matched pair, NOS, and they are Tung-Sol branded.  Yes, they're all running in the $400+ range now.  Every now and then I stumble across a good find.  I check eBay nightly (along with the Classifieds and a few other pages) for deals.


----------



## Galapac

Ayaka said:


> Oh thanks for the link, will read it! Unfortunately my amp is not using 300B tubes... only 6sl7, 6sn7 and el34.


If your amp can take 6L6GC tubes, which are similar to EL34, many of those glow blue too.


----------



## JTbbb

Am I correct with this Marconi Osram, being week 4? March 1946?


----------



## Ayaka

Galapac said:


> If your amp can take 6L6GC tubes, which are similar to EL34, many of those glow blue too.


🤩 Do you know if I can use 6L6GC in an R8?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Ayaka said:


> 🤩 Do you know if I can use 6L6GC in an R8?


Wait until you see what I've got coming next week.... ;D


----------



## Ayaka

ColSaulTigh said:


> Wait until you see what I've got coming next week.... ;D






? 😂 can’t wait. But I searched a bit on google, can’t find if 6L6GC are compatible with Willsenton r8 ☹️


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Ayaka said:


> ? 😂 can’t wait. But I searched a bit on google, can’t find if 6L6GC are compatible with Willsenton r8 ☹️


It's a Volkswagon, so it's used to belching black smoke and failing emissions tests!  But no....


----------



## Galapac

Ayaka said:


> 🤩 Do you know if I can use 6L6GC in an R8?


You could check with the manufacturer as I am not aware of that amp.
If the amp has auto-bias it may work but you should ask the vendor.
https://killerrig.com/6l6-vs-el34-tubes/


----------



## Ayaka

Galapac said:


> You could check with the manufacturer as I am not aware of that amp.
> If the amp has auto-bias it may work but you should ask the vendor.
> https://killerrig.com/6l6-vs-el34-tubes/


Yes, but the R8 is pretty well known, I thought I would find the information easily. But I’m sure someone in this forum knows 👍🏼


----------



## Galapac

Ayaka said:


> Yes, but the R8 is pretty well known, I thought I would find the information easily. But I’m sure someone in this forum knows 👍🏼


I saw that it can also take KT88s or 6550s so it may have auto bias.
Someone will chime in I'm sure.


----------



## Ayaka

Galapac said:


> I saw that it can also take KT88s or 6550s so it may have auto bias.
> Someone will chime in I'm sure.


Yes you can use kt88 or 6550, there’s a switch at the back of the amp for that. But you have to bias yourself, using a small screwdriver. Also when you change el34 quad for another. (Biased newly received TS EL34B just few minutes before 😆)


----------



## triod750

The NU 6C8G to the left has code IU; what does that mean? And who made the 'Mullard Amerty' second from right? No codes.


----------



## TLO

triod750 said:


> The NU 6C8G to the left has code IU; what does that mean? And who made the 'Mullard Amerty' second from right? No codes.


TS 6C8G BGRP


----------



## triod750

TLO said:


> TS 6C8G BGRP


My wild guess was TS. Are you positive?


----------



## TLO

triod750 said:


> My wild guess was TS. Are you positive?


Yes, 100% sure. Have some pairs myself.


----------



## triod750

100% is pretty good. Who could ask for more? Do you like them?


----------



## TLO (Nov 19, 2022)

triod750 said:


> 100% is pretty good. Who could ask for more? Do you like them?


Yes, I get to roll them in a rotation with many other tubes. Just different presentation...I like them all. Tubes I dont like sit deep down in the wooden box...lol






Actually, have 7 pairs and selling 3 pairs NIB military box. Sold one pair a couple of weeks ago to a nice fellow here, 2 pairs left.
Update: My apology, gentlemen, the last 2 pairs have gone to another fellow here. Thank you for your kind consideration.


----------



## tinariwen

Did the front page (extremely useful) list ever get updated? I’ve often referred back to it when looking for NOS tubes, but it’s approaching 20 years old now and there’s undoubtedly been some good finds since.


----------



## Isaacc7

I wish the thread would be retitled as the twin triode thread. We talk about so many different ones beyond 6sn7. There is also another 6sn7 thread (6sn7 fanatics?) that doesn’t get posted to as often but I think they stick to 6sn7.


----------



## TLO (Nov 24, 2022)

Listing these mint condition Mullard ECC33 up for sales. Please pm if interested before I list them at the classified section.
4 pieces 100% matched with same old code and date, 1324 E4 - MAY 1954 ----- super rare!!!
Blackburn, slim brown base, rectangle getter.
All tested above 100% emission.

UPDATE: These have been sold, thank you!!!


----------



## bcowen

TLO said:


> Listing these mint condition Mullard ECC33 up for sales. Please pm if interested before I list them at the classified section.
> 4 pieces 100% matched with same old code and date, 1324 E4 - MAY 1954 ----- super rare!!!
> Blackburn, slim brown base, rectangle getter.
> All tested above 100% emission.
> ...


Those are some gorgeous tubes!!!


----------



## TLO

bcowen said:


> Those are some gorgeous tubes!!!


Lol...actually, I have these 3 pairs with all same construction n date code. If someone really wanted all, I will consider selling them in one lot.


----------



## g0ldl10n

Any input on this/these questions would be appreciated.

Lets assume you have an amp that is 1x 6SN7 -> 1x 6AS7. Both heater currents added together on typical tubes would be 3.1 amps (0.6a for 6SN7 and 2.5a for 6AS7). Lets say one wanted to use tubes that were rated for pulling more amps. For the sake of argument, let's say the additional load was going to be about another 0.9 amps, so about 4 amps total instead of the 3.1 amps. 

If you're unable to get official documentation on what the transformer can handle, what does one need to be monitoring while they are running the tubes pulling the additional load in order to come to a conclusion if its safe? Would we just need to be monitoring the temperature within the amp, or is there something/anything else one should/could be monitoring?


----------



## LobalWarming

g0ldl10n said:


> Any input on this/these questions would be appreciated.
> 
> Lets assume you have an amp that is 1x 6SN7 -> 1x 6AS7. Both heater currents added together on typical tubes would be 3.1 amps (0.6a for 6SN7 and 2.5a for 6AS7). Lets say one wanted to use tubes that were rated for pulling more amps. For the sake of argument, let's say the additional load was going to be about another 0.9 amps, so about 4 amps total instead of the 3.1 amps.
> 
> If you're unable to get official documentation on what the transformer can handle, what does one need to be monitoring while they are running the tubes pulling the additional load in order to come to a conclusion if its safe? Would we just need to be monitoring the temperature within the amp, or is there something/anything else one should/could be monitoring?


Might notice the pungent aroma of transformer windings as they melt into the big smoke of thermionic destiny. 

Before that check the temp of the transformer by hand - but only if it's not glowing.   

What amp is it and what set of tubes? Pair of 6BX7s and a 6N7?


----------



## g0ldl10n

LobalWarming said:


> Might notice the pungent aroma of transformer windings as they melt into the big smoke of thermionic destiny.
> 
> Before that check the temp of the transformer by hand - but only if it's not glowing.
> 
> What amp is it and what set of tubes? Pair of 6BX7s and a 6N7?


Eufonika H5 .. wanted to try a single 6BL7 (and 6BX7) as the input with 6AS7 as output for more than 1 minute because of paranoia lol.. from what I did hear, it sounds quite good. Just don't want to turn the amp into paperweight.


----------



## LobalWarming

It'll be fine. Mine is. And I've done worse. Wieslaw gives us a little bit of headroom - just enough to allow for 'experiments'. 

But, one thing to remember... never use a single 6BX7 as input with a single 6BX7 output. It's like never crossing the streams in GB or thermionic incest.   

That and it doesn't sound as good as 6SN7/pair of 6J5s driving a single 6BX7 output.. Enjoy the 6BX7 as output. One of the best, imo. 

Do you have the basic H5 or Miflex?


----------



## g0ldl10n

LobalWarming said:


> It'll be fine. Mine is. And I've done worse. Wieslaw gives us a little bit of headroom - just enough to allow for 'experiments'.
> 
> But, one thing to remember... never use a single 6BX7 as input with a single 6BX7 output. It's like never crossing the streams in GB or thermionic incest.
> 
> ...


Have the Miflex version. I do enjoy it! Once I get some of the 6BX7 tubes in ill certainly give that a try. Right now only have 6BL7s on hand, but have a few 6BX7 tubes on the way.


----------



## whirlwind

TLO said:


> Listing these mint condition Mullard ECC33 up for sales. Please pm if interested before I list them at the classified section.
> 4 pieces 100% matched with same old code and date, 1324 E4 - MAY 1954 ----- super rare!!!
> Blackburn, slim brown base, rectangle getter.
> All tested above 100% emission.
> ...



Nice!


----------



## g0ldl10n

LobalWarming said:


> It'll be fine. Mine is. And I've done worse. Wieslaw gives us a little bit of headroom - just enough to allow for 'experiments'.
> 
> But, one thing to remember... never use a single 6BX7 as input with a single 6BX7 output. It's like never crossing the streams in GB or thermionic incest.
> 
> ...


Been running a Sylvania 6BL7 as the input for majority of the day, and it's quite good. It brings a lot of weight and fullness to the overall sound, especially the mid bass, it really hits hard with this driving the input stage. 

Some A/B testing against my two favorite 6SN7 types - Westinghouse 5692 and a tall bottle NU labeled 7N7 with grey plates, instead of the black you typically see (I have a tall bottle marked Philco with black plates and a tall Bottle 7N7 JAN, with what looks like identical internals to 6SN7W (also black plates) - this NU labeled 7N7 with grey plates is significantly better to my ears than both - probably one of my favorite tubes of all time actually) - The 6BL7 gives them both a run for their money 

Actually, the 6BL7 as the input gives just about everything I have as far as 6SN7 substitutes a run as well (strapped pentodes such as 6B8G, dual triodes such as EBC33, and the more well known 6C8G/6F8G tubes, etc). If your amp can handle the extra load, I would recommend giving the 6BL7 a try in the 6SN7 input stage. The end sound production is very soothing - I think people would refer the SQ from the 6BL7 as that quintessential "tubey" sound. Super full, warm and extremely pleasing and fun to listen to. 

Chain as of now is Aune MK2 tube dac, running a pair of 6G6G tubes -> Eufonika H5/Miflex running Sylvania 6BL7 and Svetlana Winged C 6H13C


----------



## LobalWarming

g0ldl10n said:


> Been running a Sylvania 6BL7 as the input for majority of the day, and it's quite good. It brings a lot of weight and fullness to the overall sound, especially the mid bass, it really hits hard with this driving the input stage.
> 
> Some A/B testing against my two favorite 6SN7 types - Westinghouse 5692 and a tall bottle NU labeled 7N7 with grey plates, instead of the black you typically see (I have a tall bottle marked Philco with black plates and a tall Bottle 7N7 JAN, with what looks like identical internals to 6SN7W (also black plates) - this NU labeled 7N7 with grey plates is significantly better to my ears than both - probably one of my favorite tubes of all time actually) - The 6BL7 gives them both a run for their money
> 
> ...


Happy to hear you're enjoying the 6BL7 as a driver, without violating inter-family thermionic rules. 

I enjoy the 'Frankie' 7N7s very much in my H5. And the NU 7A4 twins a bit more. For a more visceral vintage presentation, like to roll Mullard ECC31 and Vissseaux 6N7G/GT. 

But this is the 6SN7 thread, so must give a warm ear to Melz 1578, TS RP 6SN7, TS VT-99, Syl 6SN7W and Phillips FDD20 (with 12V external heater).


----------



## triod750

g0ldl10n said:


> Been running a Sylvania 6BL7 as the input for majority of the day, and it's quite good. It brings a lot of weight and fullness to the overall sound, especially the mid bass, it really hits hard with this driving the input stage.
> 
> Some A/B testing against my two favorite 6SN7 types - Westinghouse 5692 and a tall bottle NU labeled 7N7 with grey plates, instead of the black you typically see (I have a tall bottle marked Philco with black plates and a tall Bottle 7N7 JAN, with what looks like identical internals to 6SN7W (also black plates) - this NU labeled 7N7 with grey plates is significantly better to my ears than both - probably one of my favorite tubes of all time actually) - The 6BL7 gives them both a run for their money
> 
> ...


So what do you use for output? H5(M) provides 3A for heaters and 6BL7/6BX7 requires 1,5A. Are you using an external heater psu?

6SN7, 6SN7, 6SN7, 6C8G, 6C8G.........am I forgiven?


----------



## g0ldl10n (Nov 29, 2022)

triod750 said:


> So what do you use for output? H5(M) provides 3A for heaters and 6BL7/6BX7 requires 1,5A. Are you using an external heater psu?
> 
> 6SN7, 6SN7, 6SN7, 6C8G, 6C8G.........am I forgiven?


Nope, just have the 6BL7 in the 6SN7 socket, with 6AS7 as output.

Edit: Might be foolish on my part, but before trying the 6BL7 as input stage, I was running tubes pulling 0.9amps quite a bit - dual 6AJ7 and single 5687. Was just a bit more hesitant to try 6BL7 since as you noted, draws 1.5amps per its datasheet.


----------



## triod750

g0ldl10n said:


> Nope, just have the 6BL7 in the 6SN7 socket, with 6AS7 as output.


That draws 4A from a transformer that is safe for 3A. It probably provides more but I would consult with the manufacturer before going on with the experiment. 6BL/BX7 are good tubes.


----------



## triod750 (Nov 29, 2022)

g0ldl10n said:


> Nope, just have the 6BL7 in the 6SN7 socket, with 6AS7 as output.
> 
> Edit: Might be foolish on my part, but before trying the 6BL7 as input stage, I was running tubes pulling 0.9amps quite a bit - dual 6AJ7 and single 5687. Was just a bit more hesitant to try 6BL7 since as you noted, draws 1.5amps per its datasheet.


Did you try 5687 with 6BL7 as output too? That would be safe.

(This should be in a thread dedicated either to your amp or to the tubes discussed).


----------



## g0ldl10n

triod750 said:


> Did you try 5687 with 6BL7 as output too? That would be safe.


I have tried the 6BL7 as the output, but didn't get great results. Using the 5687 tubes with typical 6AS7/6080 as output. And ofc, run some of those lovely 6SN7 tubes


----------



## triod750

g0ldl10n said:


> And ofc, run some of those lovely 6SN7 tubes


Absolutely! We can't resist them...


----------



## g0ldl10n

triod750 said:


> Did you try 5687 with 6BL7 as output too? That would be safe.
> 
> (This should be in a thread dedicated either to your amp or to the tubes discussed).


Unfortunately (well guess this _really _depends on how you look at it), a lot of the tubes I roll do not have their own dedicated thread. 

The amp I use, suppose it does, but it is hard to beat the knowledge that comes through this thread, and selfishly I wanted my original inquiry that started this discussion to be seen by all the knowledgeable people that come thru this thread, and since it was in regards to 6SN7 substitute, figured it was just the spot!


----------



## triod750

I don't mind at all.


----------



## Pondoro

My FOTON 6N8S tubes from Ukraine arrived but are stranded at the post office, I must show up in person and sign for them. Thus perceptions of risk, I was willing to risk $17 on an antique item made of glass, shipped by a stranger from a war torn country. He was afraid to have the package left in my mailbox. I am not complaining, it is difficult for people from most countries to understand how safe rural Ohio is. I am humbled by the differences in our circumstances.

These are not grail tubes, I am trying them to see what they may sound like. Let us hope they are undamaged.


----------



## g0ldl10n

triod750 said:


> That draws 4A from a transformer that is safe for 3A. It probably provides more but I would consult with the manufacturer before going on with the experiment. 6BL/BX7 are good tubes.


Last thing I am going to add to this, in case anyone comes across this and is looking for the same information in regards to the safety of pulling more amps than the typical 0.6 + 2.5 from the 6SN7 -> 6AS7 Eufonika H5(M), is I spoke with Wieslaw and he said the transformer was designed to handle 3.5 amps. So running the 6BL7 as input with typical 6AS7 is probably pushing the limits of the stock transformer a bit. So, proceed with caution as always!


----------



## triod750

g0ldl10n said:


> Last thing I am going to add to this, in case anyone comes across this and is looking for the same information in regards to the safety of pulling more amps than the typical 0.6 + 2.5 from the 6SN7 -> 6AS7 Eufonika H5(M), is I spoke with Wieslaw and he said the transformer was designed to handle 3.5 amps. So running the 6BL7 as input with typical 6AS7 is probably pushing the limits of the stock transformer a bit. So, proceed with caution as always!


Haha, he kept the last .5A to himself when I asked him previously. Can't blame him, he knows how careless tube rollers are. They make their amps burn and then blame the manufacturer  .


----------



## LobalWarming

Weislaw told me H5 would be fine to run ECC31/32 .9A + 6AS7 2.5A. That's a silly 100mA below 4A. And I often do silly things. Only some most of them I regret. 

Received a new (to me) old Syl Gold Brand 6SN7. It's very good. Better than expected for late 50s production. No gold pins, like my GB-6350 or GB-6135s, probably need to make a warranty claim - anyone have a current email for their Gold Brand division?


----------



## sqitis

@Paladin79 @bcowen - Hi Tom & Bill, yes long time I know! I'm back and rolling tubes again in another SLP-98......LOL

What did I miss??


----------



## Pondoro

Pondoro said:


> My FOTON 6N8S tubes from Ukraine arrived but are stranded at the post office, I must show up in person and sign for them. Thus perceptions of risk, I was willing to risk $17 on an antique item made of glass, shipped by a stranger from a war torn country. He was afraid to have the package left in my mailbox. I am not complaining, it is difficult for people from most countries to understand how safe rural Ohio is. I am humbled by the differences in our circumstances.
> 
> These are not grail tubes, I am trying them to see what they may sound like. Let us hope they are undamaged.


Tubes look great. I tried both in my Vali 2+, which works great with 6SN7 tubes, using a socket saver and a 6SN7 adapter. Neither of the new FOTON tubes lights up visibly, and neither works musically, I get a lot of noise but no music at all.

Any ideas? Did I just get two bad tubes? Am I doing something wrong? 

Thanks


----------



## Ayaka

Pondoro said:


> My FOTON 6N8S tubes from Ukraine arrived but are stranded at the post office, I must show up in person and sign for them. Thus perceptions of risk, I was willing to risk $17 on an antique item made of glass, shipped by a stranger from a war torn country. He was afraid to have the package left in my mailbox. I am not complaining, it is difficult for people from most countries to understand how safe rural Ohio is. I am humbled by the differences in our circumstances.
> 
> These are not grail tubes, I am trying them to see what they may sound like. Let us hope they are undamaged.


Let me know what you think about them, will receive some in some weeks ✌🏼


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Pondoro said:


> Tubes look great. I tried both in my Vali 2+, which works great with 6SN7 tubes, using a socket saver and a 6SN7 adapter. Neither of the new FOTON tubes lights up visibly, and neither works musically, I get a lot of noise but no music at all.
> 
> Any ideas? Did I just get two bad tubes? Am I doing something wrong?
> 
> Thanks


Have you tried taking the socket saver out of the equation?  It's possible one or more pins need the solder reflowed - a common issue with the Melz.  Don't know anything about the FOTON tubes myself.  @Paladin79 might be able to shed some light...


----------



## Pondoro

ColSaulTigh said:


> Have you tried taking the socket saver out of the equation?  It's possible one or more pins need the solder reflowed - a common issue with the Melz.  Don't know anything about the FOTON tubes myself.  @Paladin79 might be able to shed some light...


They will not fit the Vali without the socket saver. The socket saver makes the larger diameter 6SN7 and 68NS tubes ride above the small hole in the lid of the Vali.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2022)

sqitis said:


> @Paladin79 @bcowen - Hi Tom & Bill, yes long time I know! I'm back and rolling tubes again in another SLP-98......LOL
> 
> What did I miss??


Well I am working on my power amp and speaker setup right now. PrimaLuna and Sonus Faber. I have mostly been searching for 12AU7's and @jonathan c was an immense help in that search. Now I want to do a DAC upgrade so I should be hearing and evaluating 15 DACS after the holidays. I have most interest in DACs with a tube output stage. I am still working on my vinyl setup as well and added an Emotiva transport. I had to add another rack just to supports additional items.
I also added a device that will turn a power amp into a headphone amp and I should be adding a record storage box to match the turntable base. It is still a work in progress. As far as 6sn7's, I mostly just use Melz 1578's I collected prior to the Ukraine invasion.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Have you tried taking the socket saver out of the equation?  It's possible one or more pins need the solder reflowed - a common issue with the Melz.  Don't know anything about the FOTON tubes myself.  @Paladin79 might be able to shed some light...


Fotons are the reason I started replacing the solder in 6sn7 tube pins. People claimed they needed a super long burn in and I thought that a little crazy so I conducted some experiments with the pins, new solder, and a long test cycle. To the best of my recollection @bcowen who is the resident Foton expert went back and checked some tubes that he had applied the long burn in time to and found they were still acting like they did prior to said burn in. Bill can answer this better but the best Fotons are from the fifties and have ribbed plates. 1952-1957 I think but Bill can answer that better than me.

As best I recall the socket extension is needed on the Vali, the socket on the circuit board sits fairly low and will not allow an adapter otherwise.  This is back when I did a lot of experiments with 6J5 single triode tubes, the device in the back had a 9 pin socket closer to the top of the amp so a 9 pin extension was not needed there.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Well I am working on my power amp and speaker setup right now. PrimaLuna and Sonus Faber. I have mostly been searching for 12AU7's and @jonathan c was an immense help in that search. Now I want to do a DAC upgrade so I should be hearing and evaluating 15 DACS after the holidays. I have most interest in DACs with a tube output stage. I am still working on my vinyl setup as well and added an Emotiva transport. I had to add another rack just to supports additional items.
> I also added a device that will turn a power amp into a headphone amp and I should be adding a record storage box to match the turntable base. It is still a work in progress. As far as 6sn7's, I mostly just use Melz 1578's I collected prior to the Ukraine invasion.


Absolutly love it!!! That TT block is just stellar, put me in line for one! Please! I'm digging the pipe work as well on your rack! I figured I could find a good set of Melz from one of you guys (especially you Tom) since you own probably half the world stock in 1578's........LOL


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2022)

sqitis said:


> Absolutly love it!!! That TT block is just stellar, put me in line for one! Please! I'm digging the pipe work as well on your rack! I figured I could find a good set of Melz from one of you guys (especially you Tom) since you own probably half the world stock in 1578's........LOL



The great Melz are hard to find anymore and if you do, they could be $250 per tube, a few sellers from Ukraine occasionally have them. I am pretty much down to those I want to keep, sorry. I think you know I would help if I could. I will watch for some for you on Ebay, as far as I know the sellers in Ukraine have been delivering product but it is impossible for me to vouch for any of them.  

Turntable plinth is solid birdseye maple with ebony splines.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2022)

Oh and I started building mini radial desktop speakers when someone on a Schiit thread asked if I could make them. The originals are by DecWare but they list parts used and have a video on how to build them. I eliminated a couple steps they were using, changed the shape a bit, and built them. They will handle up to 20 watts per channel but 10-15 watts is optimal. I am working on such a tube amp with a fellow engineer but I got sidetracked for a bit when I bought a cargo van full of audio gear. The tiny speakers helped pay for the gear.   




 .


----------



## Pondoro

Whoa, feeling a bit dumb here. The tubes as advertised on the internet were listed as "6N8S (6H8C, 6SN7)”, as I said I tried them. Now I look on the tubes and they say, "6H7C", which seems to be a different tube. I feel dumb for not noticing this and just trying them. My Vali seems undamaged. But are these tube the same? The internet does not say they are.

I think the seller shipped the wrong tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> Whoa, feeling a bit dumb here. The tubes as advertised on the internet were listed as "6N8S (6H8C, 6SN7)”, as I said I tried them. Now I look on the tubes and they say, "6H7C", which seems to be a different tube. I feel dumb for not noticing this and just trying them. My Vali seems undamaged. But are these tube the same? The internet does not say they are.
> 
> I think the seller shipped the wrong tubes.


I will check on this but I think it has to do with the cyrillic alphabet.

Got a photo of the 6H7C? That number does not seem right, maybe they are 6SL7's.

DO NOT USE THOSE!!!!  I believe they are 6n7s tubes. A friend bought some by mistake and they smoked his amp.


----------



## sqitis

Paladin79 said:


> Oh and I started building mini radial desktop speakers when someone on a Schiit thread asked if I could make them. The originals are by DecWare but they list parts used and have a video on how to build them. I eliminated a couple steps they were using, changed the shape a bit, and built them. They will handle up to 20 watts per channel but 10-15 watts is optimal. I am working on such a tube amp with a fellow engineer but I got sidetracked for a bit when I bought a cargo van full of audio gear. The tiny speakers helped pay for the gear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, really like those! Good design Tom! The Birdseye is so stunning!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2022)

sqitis said:


> Wow, really like those! Good design Tom! The Birdseye is so stunning!


The originals sell for as much as $1,000 a set, I was happy with half that lol. Also it is not a bad idea to use a mini subwoofer with them or at least a small equalizer like a Schiit Loki. You have to make a 45 degree cut for the corners as well as tapering the sides. I can now do that in one step whereas the original builder cuts the taper, then the 45 degree on a router.


----------



## Pondoro (Dec 1, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> I will check on this but I think it has to do with the cyrillic alphabet.
> 
> Got a photo of the 6H7C? That number does not seem right, maybe they are 6SL7's.
> 
> DO NOT USE THOSE!!!!  I believe they are 6n7s tubes. A friend bought some by mistake and they smoked his amp.


Well fortunately I did not seem to smoke the amp! I am familiar with Cyrillic but these letters seem Roman. I have attached a picture. Tubes are difficult to photograph!


----------



## g0ldl10n

Pondoro said:


> Well fortunately I did not seem to smoke the amp! I am familiar with Cyrillic but these letters seem Roman. I have attached a picture. Tube are difficult to photograph!


Can confirm, those are 6N7 tubes - I have some myself, and that is what they are equivalent to.


----------



## Paladin79

Pondoro said:


> Well fortunately I did not seem to smoke the amp! I am familiar with Cyrillic but these letters seem Roman. I have attached a picture. Tube are difficult to photograph!


IMHO you were sent the wrong tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

Pondoro said:


> Well fortunately I did not seem to smoke the amp! I am familiar with Cyrillic but these letters seem Roman. I have attached a picture. Tube are difficult to photograph!







H becomes an N, C becomes an S.


----------



## Pondoro

Are 6H7C tubes of use to anyone? I do not need them. I feel bad, the seller is highly rated and is in Ukraine. He doesn't need this. I ran a business in post-communist Poland for a while, I have had much bigger problems in that part of the world. I embarrassed my daughter terribly once, arguing price in the lobby of a ritzy Prague hotel. But the seller had misrepresented something, I deserved a discount.


----------



## g0ldl10n

Paladin79 said:


> Fotons are the reason I started replacing the solder in 6sn7 tube pins. People claimed they needed a super long burn in and I thought that a little crazy so I conducted some experiments with the pins, new solder, and a long test cycle. To the best of my recollection @bcowen who is the resident Foton expert went back and checked some tubes that he had applied the long burn in time to and found they were still acting like they did prior to said burn in. Bill can answer this better but the best Fotons are from the fifties and have ribbed plates. 1952-1957 I think but Bill can answer that better than me.
> 
> As best I recall the socket extension is needed on the Vali, the socket on the circuit board sits fairly low and will not allow an adapter otherwise.  This is back when I did a lot of experiments with 6J5 single triode tubes, the device in the back had a 9 pin socket closer to the top of the amp so a 9 pin extension was not needed there.


Those little Aune tube dacs are great! lol.. I really wanna get the 4th generation .. anyone have one they want to sell?


----------



## Pondoro

Paladin79 said:


> H becomes an N, C becomes an S.


It was fairly idiotic to design incompatible tubes called "6SN7" and "6N7S", in my opinion. I suspect a (Russian) plane has crashed because of this.


----------



## Paladin79

Pondoro said:


> It was fairly idiotic to design incompatible tubes called "6SN7" and "6N7S", in my opinion. I suspect a (Russian) plane has crashed because of this.


I agree and as I said I have seen this mistake before. The guy even sent me the tubes but I keep them far away from 6sn7's.


----------



## Pondoro

Paladin79 said:


> I agree and as I said I have seen this mistake before. The guy even sent me the tubes but I keep them far away from 6sn7's.


I was able to watch the Antonov, a triumph of Ukrainian and Russian cooperation, being loaded once. A hatch opened to reveal the refueling connections. Notes on the inside of the hatch did not inspire confidence!


----------



## Ayaka

I found this document some time ago which shows the russian numbering matching: Russion Tube Decoder


If the glass of a tube is slightly moving (when you hold its base and the glass at the same time and try to twist it very gently), it's not good right? I presume it means no more vacuum.... still usable or not??


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Ayaka said:


> I found this document some time ago which shows the russian numbering matching: Russion Tube Decoder
> 
> 
> If the glass of a tube is slightly moving (when you hold its base and the glass at the same time and try to twist it very gently), it's not good right? I presume it means no more vacuum.... still usable or not??


Not necessarily.  The glass is crimped at the bottom, which is what keep it vacuum sealed.  The glass is then glued into the base.  Sometimes some superglue or other quick-drying glue will fix the issue.  I've never tried it, although I have a KR/RK that needs some love.  The vacuum itself should be OK unless there's a crack in the glass or the glass was not crimped/sealed when originally manufactured.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 1, 2022)

Ayaka said:


> I found this document some time ago which shows the russian numbering matching: Russion Tube Decoder
> 
> 
> If the glass of a tube is slightly moving (when you hold its base and the glass at the same time and try to twist it very gently), it's not good right? I presume it means no more vacuum.... still usable or not??


It should still be usable, the glue on the base did not hold up. The glass itself is sealed with wire leads protruding from the bottom that go into the pins of the base. Sorry I answered before I saw the previous response and I was adding a pdf of the Russian tube info. 

I designed an amp using those Russian GU-50 tubes, German made tubes also work except they use a different keying system.


----------



## g0ldl10n

Paladin79 said:


> It should still be usable, the glue on the base did not hold up. The glass itself is sealed with wire leads protruding from the bottom that go into the pins of the base. Sorry I answered before I saw the previous response and I was adding a pdf of the Russian tube info.
> 
> I designed an amp using those Russian GU-50 tubes, German made tubes also work except they use a different keying system.


Gotta ask - how does it sound?


----------



## Paladin79

I enjoy it. I was handed a bucket of parts and needed to build a class A SET amp to win a bet. My friends were impressed and I got to keep the amp. I then went in and replaced wire and specific components. I upgraded the tubes to all Telefunken and that helped. The amp is about 15 watts per channel. I like class A sound so it fits my needs at times. Here Finnegan and I are hooking up a headphone adapter. I ran Russian GU-50’s on that day.


----------



## g0ldl10n

Paladin79 said:


> I enjoy it. I was handed a bucket of parts and needed to build a class A SET amp to win a bet. My friends were impressed and I got to keep the amp. I then went in and replaced wire and specific components. I upgraded the tubes to all Telefunken and that helped. The amp is about 15 watts per channel. I like class A sound so it fits my needs at times. Here Finnegan and I are hooking up a headphone adapter. I ran Russian GU-50’s on that day.


Ahh, I see what's happening here - Finnegan is the brains of the operation!


----------



## Paladin79

g0ldl10n said:


> Ahh, I see what's happening here - Finnegan is the brains of the operation!


Well yeah, he is a big help with tubes and electronics.


----------



## LobalWarming

Paladin79 said:


> Well yeah, he is a big help with tubes and electronics.


You're so lucky to have such an adorable assistant that considers GEC 6AS7 as just another disposable bulb that makes cools glass shatter sounds when knocked off the desk. Zen Cataphonics.


----------



## bcowen

Pondoro said:


> Well fortunately I did not seem to smoke the amp! I am familiar with Cyrillic but these letters seem Roman. I have attached a picture. Tubes are difficult to photograph!


The 6H7C has a different pinout than the 6SN7 (or 6N8S) which is why the tube didn't work at all.  Glad nothing was fried!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Fotons are the reason I started replacing the solder in 6sn7 tube pins. People claimed they needed a super long burn in and I thought that a little crazy so I conducted some experiments with the pins, new solder, and a long test cycle. To the best of my recollection @bcowen who is the resident Foton expert went back and checked some tubes that he had applied the long burn in time to and found they were still acting like they did prior to said burn in. Bill can answer this better but the best Fotons are from the fifties and have ribbed plates. 1952-1957 I think but Bill can answer that better than me.


1951 through (early) 1956 were the years of the ribbed plates.  Sometime during 1956 they changed to the smooth plate which was carried forward from that point. I'm also assuming 1951 was the first year ('cause I have some), and I have yet to see anything dated 1950 or earlier.


----------



## bcowen

sqitis said:


> @Paladin79 @bcowen - Hi Tom & Bill, yes long time I know! I'm back and rolling tubes again in another SLP-98......LOL
> 
> What did I miss??


Welcome back!  Another SLP-98, huh?   🤣 I have to say that the '98 was my favorite of the (several) Cary preamps I owned.  I never had a chance to hear an SLP-05 though...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> 1951 through (early) 1956 were the years of the ribbed plates.  Sometime during 1956 they changed to the smooth plate which was carried forward from that point. I'm also assuming 1951 was the first year ('cause I have some), and I have yet to see anything dated 1950 or earlier.


I knew you would be able to answer that better than me.😉 I pay less attention to Fotons.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I knew you would be able to answer that better than me.😉 I pay less attention to Fotons.


You're the Melz guru.  I could never afford Melz.   🤣


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You're the Melz guru.  I could never afford Melz.   🤣


I saw one decent one on Ebay going for $250 lol, I got some rare ones for $35 or less before they disappeared. 😜 Hardly a day goes by that I am not turning down offers.


----------



## g0ldl10n

For arguments sake, let's assume the amp is able to handle the additional amperage.

Amp is 1x 6SN7 -> 1x 6AS7

What would be the effect if one made a dual 6SN7 adapter -> 1x 6SN7 and ran dual 6SN7s? Would this end up increasing the amplification factor to unsuitable levels, resulting in similiar undesirable effects on SQ when running a high mu tube in 6SN7 socket?


----------



## Paladin79

g0ldl10n said:


> For arguments sake, let's assume the amp is able to handle the additional amperage.
> 
> Amp is 1x 6SN7 -> 1x 6AS7
> 
> What would be the effect if one made a dual 6SN7 adapter -> 1x 6SN7 and ran dual 6SN7s? Would this end up increasing the amplification factor to unsuitable levels, resulting in similiar undesirable effects on SQ when running a high mu tube in 6SN7 socket?


Now there’s a bad idea.😜


----------



## g0ldl10n (Dec 3, 2022)

Paladin79 said:


> Now there’s a bad idea.😜


Okay, but what would happen, and why? I am not an expert, just someone willing to "adventure", and its been very rewarding so far.

Ive come across so much "that tube would certainly sound horrible running in place of 6SN7" across the web, but venturing out ive found many many tubes people discount, including strapping hexodes and beam tetrodes as triodes in that 6SN7 socket, that sound quite a bit better (and are far cheaper I might add) than any 6SN7 and even 5692 tubes ive heard.


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> Now there’s a bad idea.😜


Plus, the stage gain will not change.


----------



## Mr Trev (Dec 3, 2022)

g0ldl10n said:


> Okay, but what would happen, and why? I am not an expert, just someone willing to "adventure", and its been very rewarding so far.
> 
> Ive come across so much "that tube would certainly sound horrible running in place of 6SN7" across the web, but venturing out ive found many many tubes people discount, including strapping hexodes and beam tetrodes as triodes in that 6SN7 socket, that sound quite a bit better (and are far cheaper I might add) than any 6SN7 and even 5962 tubes ive heard.


Well, my first thought… and bear with me, I be drinking, is that the heater draw of 2 6sn7 is way higher than the amp design intended and would the power supply be able to handle it without going Chernobyl on you. Dual 6j5 on the other hand would be perfect - being ½ a 6sn7 in the first place


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> 1951 through (early) 1956 were the years of the ribbed plates.  Sometime during 1956 they changed to the smooth plate which was carried forward from that point. I'm also assuming 1951 was the first year ('cause I have some), and I have yet to see anything dated 1950 or earlier.


Fun fact… 1956 was the year of Khrushchev's "we will bury you" speech. Coincidence????


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Fun fact… 1956 was the year of Khrushchev's "we will bury you" speech. Coincidence????


Well, I guess if the ribs were for pleasure, removing them was the first act of aggression.


----------



## triod750

g0ldl10n said:


> For arguments sake, let's assume the amp is able to handle the additional amperage.
> 
> Amp is 1x 6SN7 -> 1x 6AS7
> 
> What would be the effect if one made a dual 6SN7 adapter -> 1x 6SN7 and ran dual 6SN7s? Would this end up increasing the amplification factor to unsuitable levels, resulting in similiar undesirable effects on SQ when running a high mu tube in 6SN7 socket?


This wild idea deserves a technical explanation to why it is bad, even if it is bad. This is a resourceful an helpful community. Unfortunately I'm not the right person to give this explanation. I would suggest using one 6N7 in adapter or a pair of 6C4/EC90/CV133. Or maybe a pair of EL42. But this lion is asking about 6SN7...


----------



## g0ldl10n

triod750 said:


> This wild idea deserves a technical explanation to why it is bad, even if it is bad. This is a resourceful an helpful community. Unfortunately I'm not the right person to give this explanation. I would suggest using one 6N7 in adapter or a pair of 6C4/EC90/CV133. Or maybe a pair of EL42. But this lion is asking about 6SN7...


I would very much appreciate a technical explanation as to the reason(s) (other than the additional amperage load) this would be a bad idea, and what might the results be. Also, was interested in the general pros/cons on a technical level, because I was thinking further into this in regards to other tubes, such as trying a dual 6922 -> 6SN7 which would only pull 0.6 amps total, as 6922 has a heater current of 0.3a each, which would be 100% safe as far as I know. 

I guess I am just wondering if there would be any type of benefit to this - would dual 6922 in 6SN7 socket even sound different than just a single 6922 (assuming all tubes are same and matched) in the 6SN7 socket? 

I think I am just gonna have to give these things a try and see what the outcome is.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Perhaps if we ask nicely, the 6SN7 Gods will descend Mt. Melz nd grant us an answer: @bcowen @Paladin79 @L0rdGwyn and any others with innate knowledge of such things...


----------



## Isaacc7 (Dec 4, 2022)

g0ldl10n said:


> I would very much appreciate a technical explanation as to the reason(s) (other than the additional amperage load) this would be a bad idea, and what might the results be. Also, was interested in the general pros/cons on a technical level, because I was thinking further into this in regards to other tubes, such as trying a dual 6922 -> 6SN7 which would only pull 0.6 amps total, as 6922 has a heater current of 0.3a each, which would be 100% safe as far as I know.
> 
> I guess I am just wondering if there would be any type of benefit to this - would dual 6922 in 6SN7 socket even sound different than just a single 6922 (assuming all tubes are same and matched) in the 6SN7 socket?
> 
> I think I am just gonna have to give these things a try and see what the outcome is.


TL;DR playing around with tubes that are in the same electrical ballpark as the original tube can lead to different sounds. Doubling electrical characteristics will only lead to bad sound and/or damage to the amp. Do not recommend.

Why do you want to use two twin triodes instead a single one? If you’re really serious about doing this you can figure out what the specs of a 6922 with its plates run in parallel would be like. I’m not exactly a tech guru but I think when you parallel tubes you halve their output impedance. On top of that you are going to affect the resistance and input resistance I think too. So while the 6922 could possibly be within spitting distance of a 6sn7 electrically paralleling the plates could push them way beyond the tolerance of the circuit. In other words it seems like you would just be plugging random tubes into your amp.

Too many audiophiles think of tubes as sound generating devices with their own sound. It is the circuit that makes sound.  When you plug in different kinds of tubes you are changing the circuit. If the tubes‘ specs are in the same ballpark you will get variations in sound. If you change the circuit too much it will sound bad at the very least. In the worst case scenario you could fry other parts of the circuit. Maybe the amp starts oscillating, maybe now a current sink has too demanding a load and pops, maybe the bias resistor can’t handle twice the load, etc etc etc.

So no, I do not recommend doubling up triodes Willy nilly. If you are interested in different tube types to try instead of the usual twin triodes I recommend 2x single triodes. Check out the 6j5 thread for that. You could also go nuts and get adapters that turn 2 small pentodes into 2 single triodes. Either of those methods would allow you to experiment with different tubes that can still be within both the heater draw as well as electrical specs of the usual twin triodes.


----------



## Pondoro

Isaacc7 said:


> TL;DR playing around with tubes that are in the same electrical ballpark as the original tube can lead to different sounds. Doubling electrical characteristics will only lead to bad sound and/or damage to the amp. Do not recommend.
> 
> Why do you want to use two twin triodes instead a single one? If you’re really serious about doing this you can figure out what the specs of a 6922 with its plates run in parallel would be like. I’m not exactly a tech guru but I think when you parallel tubes you halve their output impedance. On top of that you are going to affect the resistance and input resistance I think too. So while the 6922 could possibly be within spitting distance of a 6sn7 electrically paralleling the plates could push them way beyond the tolerance of the circuit. In other words it seems like you would just be plugging random tubes into your amp.
> 
> ...


Yeah but those extended adapters that put two tubes where one used to go look hip! I want an extended adapter with FOUR 6SN7 tubes in a quad configuration that quadruples the power! I am only a mechanical engineer but I understand that this new quad configuration will need a big output transformer. Put that on the same adapter. It would look soooo great!


----------



## g0ldl10n (Dec 4, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> TL;DR playing around with tubes that are in the same electrical ballpark as the original tube can lead to different sounds. Doubling electrical characteristics will only lead to bad sound and/or damage to the amp. Do not recommend.
> 
> Why do you want to use two twin triodes instead a single one? If you’re really serious about doing this you can figure out what the specs of a 6922 with its plates run in parallel would be like. I’m not exactly a tech guru but I think when you parallel tubes you halve their output impedance. On top of that you are going to affect the resistance and input resistance I think too. So while the 6922 could possibly be within spitting distance of a 6sn7 electrically paralleling the plates could push them way beyond the tolerance of the circuit. In other words it seems like you would just be plugging random tubes into your amp.
> 
> ...


Ah, I am quite versed in modifying existing adapters to make them work for whole range of different tubes. The list below represents every strapped pentode, hexode, beam tetrode and single triode tubes I have tried with success running in pairs.

All as inputs in 6SN7 socket

Dual Pentodes: 6U7G, 6G6G, 6SK7, 6SG7, 6B8G, 6AC7, 5654, CV1053, 6SJ7, 6J7G, EL32, 6K6

Dual Hexodes and Heptodes: 6K8G, VR100, VR99/X65, ARTH2

Also, one can modify the adapter to run direcrly off of the Triode section of the Hexode tubes, rather than strapping the hexode, however, the max anode voltage of the triode section is usually quite a bit less than 300v, so likely burn out quicker.

Dual Beam Tetrode: KTW61

Dual Triodes: VR55/EBC33, 6R7G, 6V7G and the more common ones that have been mentioned ofc, 6J5/6C5

There are tubes in this list that I think are quite easily sonically superior than some of the most expensive 6SN7 variants out there including the 5692. Also, far cheaper.

I guess the idea of running dual twin triodes came from the adapter that is made to run dual 6BL7 in single 6AS7 socket, which are dual triodes. I probably know just enough to blow my amp up, however, I have had zero issues up to this point with any amp ive experimented with, so long as I kept the total amperage to levels safe for the transformer. Maybe ive gotten lucky, however, I am quite glad I did experiment otherwise, I wouldnt have found my favorite tubes to date.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Dec 4, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> Yeah but those extended adapters that put two tubes where one used to go look hip! I want an extended adapter with FOUR 6SN7 tubes in a quad configuration that quadruples the power! I am only a mechanical engineer but I understand that this new quad configuration will need a big output transformer. Put that on the same adapter. It would look soooo great!


Look cool, but, from my recollection, this is not a case of "if one is good, two is better".  I'll let others assume in, but there's a reason you don't just start throwing tubes in willy-nilly.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

g0ldl10n said:


> For arguments sake, let's assume the amp is able to handle the additional amperage.
> 
> Amp is 1x 6SN7 -> 1x 6AS7
> 
> What would be the effect if one made a dual 6SN7 adapter -> 1x 6SN7 and ran dual 6SN7s? Would this end up increasing the amplification factor to unsuitable levels, resulting in similiar undesirable effects on SQ when running a high mu tube in 6SN7 socket?





ColSaulTigh said:


> Perhaps if we ask nicely, the 6SN7 Gods will descend Mt. Melz nd grant us an answer: @bcowen @Paladin79 @L0rdGwyn and any others with innate knowledge of such things...



The short answer is it depends on the amp, so it would be helpful to know which one it is.

I assume you would run two 6SN7 with the sections paralleled.  Ideally, each paralleled section is biased similar to the original single section, this effectively cuts the plate resistance in half and doubles the transconductance.  However, just dropping it into an existing circuit, the bias current is going to be divided between the two sections and the operating point of each individual section will be altered, so the full benefit will not be realized.  To do this correctly, you really need to re-bias the tube.  

All 6SN7 > 6AS7G circuits I'm aware of are either resistively loaded or CCS loaded.  If the tube is resistively loaded, you might see some small reduction in distortion with a lowered effective plate resistance.  If the tube is CCS loaded, then there isn't much benefit, as the CCS is functionally an infinitely high load to the tube, so reducing the tube's plate resistance is going to have little-to-no effect on distortion.

In some circuits, paralleling sections of a dual triode can be beneficial, but it is a small benefit if any in this case and frankly not worth it in my opinion.


----------



## Paladin79

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 
I do not mind using single triode tubes that are forerunners of dual triodes or adapters that are well thought out but even with those you best know circuit limitations. Those are my only comments.😉


----------



## LobalWarming

g0ldl10n said:


> I would very much appreciate a technical explanation as to the reason(s) (other than the additional amperage load) this would be a bad idea, and what might the results be. Also, was interested in the general pros/cons on a technical level, because I was thinking further into this in regards to other tubes, such as trying a dual 6922 -> 6SN7 which would only pull 0.6 amps total, as 6922 has a heater current of 0.3a each, which would be 100% safe as far as I know.
> 
> I guess I am just wondering if there would be any type of benefit to this - would dual 6922 in 6SN7 socket even sound different than just a single 6922 (assuming all tubes are same and matched) in the 6SN7 socket?
> 
> I think I am just gonna have to give these things a try and see what the outcome is.


Experimental tube rolling is great fun. Until the fire starts, sirens wail and warranties are nulled.

My question to your question is... why? Why do you think dual 6922s could be better than a single 6SN7? My opinion is that most any 6922 is sonically inferior to a good 6SN7. Can only conclude dual 6922s would be twice as bad.   

If this pursuit for sonic differences for the sake of differences, then viva la difference. That's the fun of tube rolling. 

Have you exhausted rolling all the great 6SN7s - CV1988, TS RP, 1578, 6SN7W, VT-231, Frankie 7N7, 6F8G and many others and near relatives like ECC31/7N7? If so, then... have you rolled the great twins like L63, Brimar 6J5Gs, 7A4s, RCA 6P5s and dozens more? The most sought after 6SN7s are over-priced, sure - but patience can deliver great deals - price rolling for tube rolling!

And there are some - I hate to admit - excellent, reasonable cost kiddie's tubes, like the RFT ECC82, Brimar CV455, GEC CV133 twins. And still other over-priced children's tubes. Have you wasted money rolling those yet without adapting a pair of the little brats? Except the twin CV133s - they're one plate under glass - as nature intended.

IMO, there could be more enjoyable rolling to discover without doubling toddler tubes. Besides, I don't believe there's one tube combo to rule them all - only the 280+ combos in my Top 5. Personal audio is too personal for sweeping generalizations - other than my little brush stokes. I'm too lazy for big sweeping. 

For fun in the H5 without exceeding the heater current limits on the transformer, could employ external heater adapter for the driver. Like a 12V supply for the wonderful Phillips FDD20 (12V 7N7) or TS RP 12SN7 or 25V supply for a 1633 (they're sooo cheap). Then use the onboard heater current to run a pair of 6BX7s or 6BL7s in a dual adapter. 

And no one, but dozens here, can stop you from using an external heater adapter for the output so you can watch a TS 7242 melt your phones to your ears.  

Other than the non-optimal biasing issues raised by L0rdGwyn, and resulting dire sonic consequences, everything is to play for - if you keep the experiments within the current limits. I just feel (quite rightly) that running a pair of 6922s is going to end in disappointment. For me. Maybe not for you. But probably.


----------



## triod750

If there are technical reasons not to pursue a wild idea it is time to listen, even for a lion. Other arguments are without reason to the wildest among lions. If I were you, I would put those 6922 on the backburner. Now you have a whole collection of reasons for why.


----------



## Paladin79

LobalWarming said:


> Have you exhausted rolling all the great 6SN7s - CV1988, TS RP, 1578, 6SN7W, VT-231, Frankie 7N7, 6F8G and many others and near relatives like ECC31/7N7? If so, then... have you rolled the great twins like L63, Brimar 6J5Gs, 7A4s, RCA 6P5s and dozens more? The most sought after 6SN7s are over-priced, sure - but patience can deliver great deals - price rolling for tube rolling!


I have come as close to rolling all 6sn7 equivalents on the planet (over 1500) and I still enjoy rolling that type of tube. I never was a huge fan of 6922's but I am starting to like 12AU7's more and more.


----------



## g0ldl10n

LobalWarming said:


> Experimental tube rolling is great fun. Until the fire starts, sirens wail and warranties are nulled.
> 
> My question to your question is... why? Why do you think dual 6922s could be better than a single 6SN7? My opinion is that most any 6922 is sonically inferior to a good 6SN7. Can only conclude dual 6922s would be twice as bad.
> 
> ...


Well ya, the dual 6922 tubes was just an example, but one I willing to try, specially since I will have everything needed to do so, why not? 

I have tried and own most of the popular and expensive 6SN7 variants you listed here. The ones I have not tried are the very very expensive European 6SN7 variants. 

However, I think some are missing the point here - I am primarily concerned with the safety of attempting such things, not necessarily what the end result SQ will be, as this is extremely subjective. 

For me, the real excitement of tube rolling is finding gems available in true NIB/NOS condition for less than $10 a piece, that are rarely mentioned (or never at all mentioned in this entire forum), with their SQ being spectacular - I can say with confidence, that at least with my current amps circuit, there are tubes in the list I shared previously that are very noticeably better than all of the tubes 10-30x more expensive that have been listed and I own. Those tubes very rarely get any playing time. If not for the collection standpoint alone, I would certainly have sold them all already. 

The hunt, and eventual find of these gems for reasonable priced mint condition tubes is where most of the fun comes from!


----------



## sam6550a

g0ldl10n said:


> For arguments sake, let's assume the amp is able to handle the additional amperage.
> 
> Amp is 1x 6SN7 -> 1x 6AS7
> 
> What would be the effect if one made a dual 6SN7 adapter -> 1x 6SN7 and ran dual 6SN7s? Would this end up increasing the amplification factor to unsuitable levels, resulting in similiar undesirable effects on SQ when running a high mu tube in 6SN7 socket?


The amplification factor will not change. If you want to add voltage gain, the two halfs of the 6SN7 must be configured as cascade voltage amplifier stages, which will change tho total topography of your amplifier, require additional passive components, and require a lot of design skill to implement. Operating the two halfs of a 6SN7 in parallel will probably have minimal impact on sound quality.


----------



## sam6550a

Pondoro said:


> Yeah but those extended adapters that put two tubes where one used to go look hip! I want an extended adapter with FOUR 6SN7 tubes in a quad configuration that quadruples the power! I am only a mechanical engineer but I understand that this new quad configuration will need a big output transformer. Put that on the same adapter. It would look soooo great!


The 6SN7 is not a power tube, it is a voltage amplifier. Adding more 6SN7s to an amplifier will not increase the power output.


----------



## sam6550a

g0ldl10n said:


> Well ya, the dual 6922 tubes was just an example, but one I willing to try, specially since I will have everything needed to do so, why not?
> 
> I have tried and own most of the popular and expensive 6SN7 variants you listed here. The ones I have not tried are the very very expensive European 6SN7 variants.
> 
> ...


Without knowing the capabilities and the topology of the amplifier in question, the safety of these changes is very difficult to predict. Remember, some poor overworked engineer spent a heck of a lot of time and sweat coming up with the circuit in your amplifier, and now you want to change it. Proceed with caution.


----------



## triod750

Wild and crazy is the new black. You've got to marvel the Black Lion.  
There are several ways to enjoy this hobby and responsible people are aware of danger and where to practise caution. But this is just a hobby and as long you aren't risking lives, well.....trial and error has always been a way forward in spite of many dead ends.


----------



## TLO

Paladin79 said:


> I have come as close to rolling all 6sn7 equivalents on the planet (over 1500) and I still enjoy rolling that type of tube. I never was a huge fan of 6922's but I am starting to like 12AU7's more and more.


What about ECC81 / 12AT7? I have been enjoying some British ECC81 equivalent tubes lately.


----------



## Paladin79

TLO said:


> What about ECC81 / 12AT7? I have been enjoying some British ECC81 equivalent tubes lately.


I would say they are along the same level, I just need to stick with 12AU7's in a PrimaLuna amp that takes six of them.


----------



## Ayaka

Hi!
Does it give a thread like this one on 6SL7s?

Wanted to be sure those are 6SL7... bought them for 30$ both (but only 1 is tested... and it's the one which have a slightly bent plate , don't even know how this is possible ).

I really REALLY hesitate to just put both of them in my amp and give them a try, they have such a particular design . Already burnt a resistor last week with a defective 'brand-new' JJKT77... would really suck to screw up my amp just before Christmas vacations 

But my question was about a 6SL7 thread, so I can ask my question there , thanks!


----------



## TLO (Dec 5, 2022)

Ayaka said:


> Hi!
> Does it give a thread like this one on 6SL7s?
> 
> Wanted to be sure those are 6SL7... bought them for 30$ both (but only 1 is tested... and it's the one which have a slightly bent plate , don't even know how this is possible ).
> ...


5691 n 5692 look identical as well as having the same pin out, just different specs n gain.
Check for the print on tube designation, it should be 5691 not 5692....but anyway, wouldn't kill your amp even if they are 5692.
5691 can be subsitute as 6SL7 n 5692 as 6SN7.


----------



## g0ldl10n

Ayaka said:


> Hi!
> Does it give a thread like this one on 6SL7s?
> 
> Wanted to be sure those are 6SL7... bought them for 30$ both (but only 1 is tested... and it's the one which have a slightly bent plate , don't even know how this is possible ).
> ...


Bent plate .. that I have never seen. How would that happen? Would have to be during the manufacturing process, right? That's crazy - however, even if it doesn't work, that has to be quite rare, so I would definitely keep it for the collection standpoint alone. Kinda like how people that collect money sheets/bills (like rare/old bills/coins) keep eye out for the rare flaws (miscut/misprints) that happen on the printing presses, like so --> https://www.ebay.com/itm/354032675326


----------



## LobalWarming

g0ldl10n said:


> Well ya, the dual 6922 tubes was just an example, but one I willing to try, specially since I will have everything needed to do so, why not?
> 
> I have tried and own most of the popular and expensive 6SN7 variants you listed here. The ones I have not tried are the very very expensive European 6SN7 variants.
> 
> ...


Oh...that's different.  Value tube rolling. 

I enjoy cheapskate tube rolling more than anyone not called @bcowen. Stickin' it to the 'Museum Quality Holy Grail' man and their snobby profiteers.   

That's why the 12SN7/12J5s and 1633 are great - much cheaper and excellent, pretty much equivalent sonics. 

My most recent cheapskate deal was $6 for a pair of minty Loctal NU 7A4s. Took a year of searching and a moment of pouncing, but well worth the hunt. The Loctal 7N7 Lansdales are/were great values as well. 

The problem - The Cheapskate's Dilemma - is great cheap tubes should never be discussed on Head-Fi, not just because of the inflationary language. 

To return to your initial speculation, uncertain the extravagance of using a pair of 6922s qualifies as a cheapskate rolling option - but if you have a pair of meh 6922s, why not try, indeed. 

Replacing smoked bias resistors isn't a huge deal anyhow. The scary limit is the H5 heater current limit. And that can be adapted around. 

Happy tube hunting! If you discover a great combo - don't share it here. PM me first.


----------



## g0ldl10n

LobalWarming said:


> Oh...that's different.  Value tube rolling.
> 
> I enjoy cheapskate tube rolling more than anyone not called @bcowen. Stickin' it to the 'Museum Quality Holy Grail' man and their snobby profiteers.
> 
> ...


I kid you not - a pair of 6AJ7/6AC7 tubes, which I can find pairs of RCA NIB/NOS for $7.50 (or $3.25 a piece), strapped in the 6SN7 input stage on my amp, have better SQ in my humble opinion than my 5692 tube. A/B testing them now, its really not even that close tbh. The fullness and low end of the sound reproduction is like Thor's hammer in comparison - instant "wow! factor" - and does everything else just as good, if not better. But hey, this is just one mans opinion.


----------



## Ayaka

TLO said:


> 5691 n 5692 look identical as well as having the same pin out, just different specs n gain.
> Check for the print on tube designation, it should be 5691 not 5692....but anyway, wouldn't kill your amp even if they are 5692.
> 5691 can be subsitute as 6SL7 n 5692 as 6SN7.


ho yes you're right, the 5691 is on the glass of the lighter red one, but nothing on the glass of the other tube (the dark-red), nor on the base, all writing almost disappeared.

Couldn't resist to try them , working like a charm


----------



## TLO

Ayaka said:


> ho yes you're right, the 5691 is on the glass of the lighter red one, but nothing on the glass of the other tube (the dark-red), nor on the base, all writing almost disappeared.
> 
> Couldn't resist to try them , working like a charm


no worry..if the other one happened to be 5692, you will hear unbalanced gain from each channel. Other than that, there is no harm.


----------



## Skyediver

LobalWarming said:


> Oh...that's different.  Value tube rolling.
> 
> I enjoy cheapskate tube rolling more than anyone not called @bcowen. Stickin' it to the 'Museum Quality Holy Grail' man and their snobby profiteers.
> 
> ...


It’s this weird dichotomy that I find fascinating as I dive deeper into tube rolling: We all come here to these forums to share/gain knowledge, but because of the (justified) concerns you mention, sharing that knowledge is tacitly NOT a strategy that makes sense.  A conundrum on how to break in and learn how to play the game to some extent.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

In case anyone is in the market for the infamous RCA "Grey Glass" 6SN7's"

*https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/rca-6sn7gt-vt-231-equivalent-matched-pair-same-dates.37853/#hfc-comment-56393*


----------



## malenak

Hello, I have Lyr 3 and I am finding a new tube for it. I like the tonality and tembre of JJ 6SN7. It has nice tonality on mids, tight, detailed and punchy lows and crisp highs. Only thing I am missing there is the spacious soundstage from Psvane CV181-TII. Is there any tube, which sound like these two combined? Thanks.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

malenak said:


> Hello, I have Lyr 3 and I am finding a new tube for it. I like the tonality and tembre of JJ 6SN7. It has nice tonality on mids, tight, detailed and punchy lows and crisp highs. Only thing I am missing there is the spacious soundstage from Psvane CV181-TII. Is there any tube, which sound like these two combined? Thanks.


Try a Tung Sol NOS Round Plate 6F8G with an adapter.  Actually, most of the 6F8G should give you that sound...


----------



## TLO

malenak said:


> Hello, I have Lyr 3 and I am finding a new tube for it. I like the tonality and tembre of JJ 6SN7. It has nice tonality on mids, tight, detailed and punchy lows and crisp highs. Only thing I am missing there is the spacious soundstage from Psvane CV181-TII. Is there any tube, which sound like these two combined? Thanks.


How many hrs have you run them? Just a thought as I have no experience with JJ 6SN7 but in general, most of the tubes needed at least 10-20 hrs before they really open up. Not to mention, some NOS tubes needed longer time like at least 30-40 hrs before they open up on the soundstage.


----------



## DenverW

Speaking of 6SL7 and rca grey glass...

Has anyone had the opportunity to compare similar type 6SN7 and 6SL7?  I seem to recall seeing one opinion that the tubes didn't really carry their "house" sound over.  For example, an RCA grey glass of each type did not sound the same.  I'm curious because you can pick up 6SL7 variants at a much lower price point.

Any thoughts?


----------



## jonathan c

DenverW said:


> Speaking of 6SL7 and rca grey glass...
> 
> Has anyone had the opportunity to compare similar type 6SN7 and 6SL7?  I seem to recall seeing one opinion that the tubes didn't really carry their "house" sound over.  For example, an RCA grey glass of each type did not sound the same.  I'm curious because you can pick up 6SL7 variants at a much lower price point.
> 
> Any thoughts?


The 6SN7 has gain of 20x, transconductance of 2800 _u_hos; the 6SL7 has gain of 70x, transconductance of 1600 _u_hos. These don’t appear to be substitutes 🤷🏻‍♂️.


----------



## DenverW

jonathan c said:


> The 6SN7 has gain of 20x, transconductance of 2800 _u_hos; the 6SL7 has gain of 70x, transconductance of 1600 _u_hos. These don’t appear to be substitutes 🤷🏻‍♂️.


There are amps that can substitute them, such as the Bigger Ben that I'm using, which is why I was curious of the sound properties across the variants.  Does an RCA grey glass 6sl7 have the same lush, wet signature as the same 6sn7, for example.


----------



## Isaacc7

DenverW said:


> There are amps that can substitute them, such as the Bigger Ben that I'm using, which is why I was curious of the sound properties across the variants.  Does an RCA grey glass 6sl7 have the same lush, wet signature as the same 6sn7, for example.


Like was mentioned before, the two types of tubes are different enough that there isn't any reason to think they would sound the same. For example, I can use either 6sn7 or 6sl7 in my SEP amp. The 6sl7 inevitably is brighter and more forward regardless of brand. On the other hand, my push pull amp was made with 6sl7 in mind and they can sound wonderful. The sound an amp makes with any particular tube will be determined by the circuit. 

So maybe the 6sl7 will sound the same in your amp but I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## DenverW (Dec 13, 2022)

Isaacc7 said:


> Like was mentioned before, the two types of tubes are different enough that there isn't any reason to think they would sound the same. For example, I can use either 6sn7 or 6sl7 in my SEP amp. The 6sl7 inevitably is brighter and more forward regardless of brand. On the other hand, my push pull amp was made with 6sl7 in mind and they can sound wonderful. The sound an amp makes with any particular tube will be determined by the circuit.
> 
> So maybe the 6sl7 will sound the same in your amp but I wouldn't count on it.


Interesting, that's what I was curious about; I appreciate it.  So the same brands and types (black glass, round plates, ect) of tubes carry no sonic characteristics across the N7 and L7 boundaries in an amp that self biases?


----------



## Isaacc7

DenverW said:


> Interesting, that's what I was curious about; I appreciate it.  So the same brands and types (black glass, round plates, ect) of tubes carry no sonic characteristics across the N7 and L7 boundaries in an amp that self biases?


The sonic characteristics of the circuit override whatever the tube might be contributing. When you change tube types you are changing the circuit itself. Will it sound the same just with more gain when you go to a 6sl7? Maybe, maybe not. I would ask users with your particular amp if they have found any similarities. I have had a mixed experience.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

I've seen this question pop up a few times, so I attempted to make a video on how to re-solder tube pins.  As a disclaimer, I am NOT an expert, but I figured if I could do it, so can you.  Apologies in advance for the phone-based video - I am not a professional YouTuber.

Y'all's feedback is appreciated, let me know what you think I should change or if there's more info you need.

Thanks!


----------



## malenak

TLO said:


> How many hrs have you run them? Just a thought as I have no experience with JJ 6SN7 but in general, most of the tubes needed at least 10-20 hrs before they really open up. Not to mention, some NOS tubes needed longer time like at least 30-40 hrs before they open up on the soundstage.


I guess all my tubes have already more than 100 hrs played.


----------



## TLO

malenak said:


> I guess all my tubes have already more than 100 hrs played.


If you really like spacious soundstage, these two come to mind.
1. RCA / CBS 5692
2. Brimar / STC CV1988

Please note that due to many factors, YMMV. Some people find these too mellow, so research well before pulling the trigger but I like them though.


----------



## ARCXENOS

TLO said:


> If you really like spacious soundstage, these two come to mind.
> 1. RCA / CBS 5692
> 2. *Brimar / STC CV1988*
> 
> Please note that due to many factors, YMMV. Some people find these too *mellow*, so research well before pulling the trigger but I like them though.



I prefer the term, smooth   ,definitely love the uk valves I have


----------



## TLO (Dec 15, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> I prefer the term, smooth   ,definitely love the uk valves I have


lol...yes, butter... 
Have they opened up yet? Did you notice the difference? I meant the Marconi...


----------



## ARCXENOS

TLO said:


> lol...yes, butter...
> Have they opened up yet? Did you notice the difference? I meant the Marconi...


definitely after about 60 hours, just gotta have to give it time haha


----------



## TLO

ARCXENOS said:


> definitely after about 60 hours, just gotta have to give it time haha


yeah, I discovered that by accident...lol


----------



## malenak

TLO said:


> If you really like spacious soundstage, these two come to mind.
> 1. RCA / CBS 5692
> 2. Brimar / STC CV1988
> 
> Please note that due to many factors, YMMV. Some people find these too mellow, so research well before pulling the trigger but I like them though.


That Brimar tube is more than twice expensive than whole amp.


----------



## Somatic

How often do you guys tube roll? After you find your ideal combo, do you create a few pairings for different flavors? I ended up buying a nice collection of tubes but unsure I will get to them all. Might try and find the ones I like and pair them down.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> How often do you guys tube roll? After you find your ideal combo, do you create a few pairings for different flavors? I ended up buying a nice collection of tubes but unsure I will get to them all. Might try and find the ones I like and pair them down.


I bounce around as my mood changes and/or I get a new pair of headphones - just to see what jives with what.


----------



## Isaacc7

Somatic said:


> How often do you guys tube roll? After you find your ideal combo, do you create a few pairings for different flavors? I ended up buying a nice collection of tubes but unsure I will get to them all. Might try and find the ones I like and pair them down.


I usually roll until I get a combo that sounds amazing. I’ll stick with it until I want a change. That usually takes about a week lol.


----------



## jonathan c

The catalyst for a tube roll (amp roll, cable roll, headphone roll within _an _album) … are those two little words _*What If… 🤷🏻‍♂️🤣*_


----------



## LobalWarming

Somatic said:


> How often do you guys tube roll? After you find your ideal combo, do you create a few pairings for different flavors? I ended up buying a nice collection of tubes but unsure I will get to them all. Might try and find the ones I like and pair them down.


I try to minimize rolling.  On average no more than 2-3 combos a day.   

I have now hoarded collected enough nearly sufficient tubes and fav combos that it can take at least a year to return to the initial 'ideal' combo. Except there is no ideal combo - or best combo. My tastes and moods are too fickle to stick to the 'best'. There are no bad tubes (except GE) or combos - only poor judgmental moods or poor music choices. Or both.

Sometimes I'm lazy, or too busy, but usually too lazy to roll out a combo everyday. Can stick with a type for a week at a time. One week it's 6SN7s from a certain era. Another week it's playtime with the Twins from England - 6J5G/GTs. Then off to kiddie tube's CV455/ECC82 playground for a bit. Then FDD20s/6N7s etc.  Plus the output combo options and *poof* there goes another ear-happy year.

Can't imagine ever returning to the grueling day-to-day gruel of a solid sand amp that sounds the bloody same every boring day and tedious night after the other. Ugh. That's my definition of Hell on Ears.


----------



## jonathan c

LobalWarming said:


> …Can't imagine ever returning to the grueling day-to-day gruel of a solid sand amp that sounds the bloody same every boring day and tedious night after the other. Ugh. That's my definition of Hell on Ears.^^


^^ …and the seventh circle of that Hell would be that amp playing Captain & Tennille dreck continuously……


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ColSaulTigh said:


> I've seen this question pop up a few times, so I attempted to make a video on how to re-solder tube pins.  As a disclaimer, I am NOT an expert, but I figured if I could do it, so can you.  Apologies in advance for the phone-based video - I am not a professional YouTuber.
> 
> Y'all's feedback is appreciated, let me know what you think I should change or if there's more info you need.
> 
> Thanks!



BTW, if you have a set of Melz that are being stubborn, heat up your iron good and hot and then work the pin wire loose from the pin tube with a pointed tip or dental pick.  That helps with issues related to very old solder/rosin and possible corrosion inside the tube pin.


----------



## SuperRoo

Thanks for that tip. Melz are worth the effort.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ^^ …and the seventh circle of that Hell would be that amp playing Captain & Tennille dreck continuously……


Not to be overly punctilious, but *any* amp playing Captain and Tenille continuously would be the seventh circle of hell.   🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

Somatic said:


> How often do you guys tube roll? After you find your ideal combo, do you create a few pairings for different flavors? I ended up buying a nice collection of tubes but unsure I will get to them all. Might try and find the ones I like and pair them down.


Depends on the weather.
For instance, my world is supposed to get 20ºC colder in the next 5 days. Time to dig out those hot running tubes


----------



## JTbbb

Somatic said:


> Might try and find the ones I like and pair them down.


Just what I have been trying to do this last year or so. Then some Smart Alec starts the 6J5G thread 😀.


----------



## Somatic

JTbbb said:


> Just what I have been trying to do this last year or so. Then some Smart Alec starts the 6J5G thread 😀.


hahaha


----------



## Somatic

So what is normal break in noise? How long until things get quiet etc? With one of my 6SN7, the right driver tube seems to be noisy. Static sound, pops, crackle. Didn't notice this at first but after a few hours I now hear it. Thanks.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> So what is normal break in noise? How long until things get quiet etc? With one of my 6SN7, the right driver tube seems to be noisy. Static sound, pops, crackle. Didn't notice this at first but after a few hours I now hear it. Thanks.


Which driver tubes?


----------



## bcowen

Somatic said:


> So what is normal break in noise? How long until things get quiet etc? With one of my 6SN7, the right driver tube seems to be noisy. Static sound, pops, crackle. Didn't notice this at first but after a few hours I now hear it. Thanks.


Static sound, pops, and crackle are not normal break-in noises.  What you're describing sounds like bad solder in one or more of the pins.  Do you have a soldering iron?


----------



## JTbbb

Somatic said:


> So what is normal break in noise? How long until things get quiet etc? With one of my 6SN7, the right driver tube seems to be noisy. Static sound, pops, crackle. Didn't notice this at first but after a few hours I now hear it. Thanks.


Valves can do some weirdo things, and this sounds crazy, but have you tried just swapping the drivers over?


----------



## Somatic

JTbbb said:


> Valves can do some weirdo things, and this sounds crazy, but have you tried just swapping the drivers over?


I'm going to flip them. I'm guessing issue is one specific driver tube.  Constant low static noise.


----------



## TLO (Dec 17, 2022)

Somatic said:


> I'm going to flip them. I'm guessing issue is one specific driver tube.  Constant low static noise.


There are 4 or 5 methods you can try...start with the easiest for you.

1. Pull out the tube and insert again...swap side if applicable
2. Clean the pins on tube plus the pins on socket
3. Tap repeatedly the side of the tube on the table very lightly and roll as you do, do it when the tube is still hot or warm. Lastly, holding it upright and tap lightly the base of the tube on the table. Note...tap lightly NOT knock or bang. It is advisable to use a multimeter to check for short after this operation before inserting it back onto the amp.
4. Heat the tip of every pin of the tube with a soldering iron for about 10 seconds, remember to use flux on the tips.
5. Do the same as above but make it to 30 seconds or more, and pray you didnt burn anything.

Last resort if all failed...burn the tube on the amp, or better on a DAC or preamp for hours or overnight.
Good luck!!!


----------



## sam6550a

TLO said:


> There are 4 or 5 methods you can try...start with the easiest for you.
> 
> 1. Pull out the tube and insert again...swap side if applicable
> 2. Clean the pins on tube plus the pins on socket
> ...


Suck out the old solder and resolder the pins. @Paladin79 posted a procedure a while ago on how to do this.


----------



## Paladin79

sam6550a said:


> Suck out the old solder and resolder the pins. @Paladin79 posted a procedure a while ago on how to do this.


Most of my work is on Russian tubes and I like to replace the old solder. I inject liquid flux inside the tube pins and replace the solder with silver content solder.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

sam6550a said:


> Suck out the old solder and resolder the pins. @Paladin79 posted a procedure a while ago on how to do this.


I just did a video on this and posted it earlier this week:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-544#post-17296887


----------



## jonathan c

Paladin79 said:


> Most of my work is on Russian tubes and I like to replace the old solder. I inject liquid flux inside the tube pins and replace the solder with silver content solder.


“Old solders never die, they just get sucked out and replaced…” 👨‍🏭🤣 …


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 17, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> I've seen this question pop up a few times, so I attempted to make a video on how to re-solder tube pins.  As a disclaimer, I am NOT an expert, but I figured if I could do it, so can you.  Apologies in advance for the phone-based video - I am not a professional YouTuber.
> 
> Y'all's feedback is appreciated, let me know what you think I should change or if there's more info you need.
> 
> Thanks!



That had to be hard soldering and holding the phone, normally of course you would have the solder sucker in one hand and the soldering iron in the other so the solder is quite hot before you try to remove it. Personally I get very little solder on the outside of the pins so I do not have to remove much after the fact. Also I keep the tube parallel to the work surface so the solder does not flow downward farther inside the tube. I did not watch the whole video but I use a heat sink so that I DO NOT apply that much heat at the base of each pin. Those are expensive tubes so I am very cautious. Also I use a magnifier light but I was able to buy those for $35 each, ($159 list). I use flux on the inside of the pins before applying fresh solder, flux cleans the metal so the solder will stick. I just use a bit of fresh solder on the tips of each pin before removing the old. 
I have been doing this for over three years and otherwise heard of people just reflowing the solder.🤪


----------



## Somatic

TLO said:


> There are 4 or 5 methods you can try...start with the easiest for you.
> 
> 1. Pull out the tube and insert again...swap side if applicable
> 2. Clean the pins on tube plus the pins on socket
> ...


Ok. Definitely one of the tubes is the cause. I switched the driver tubes from left to right and the low volume constant static noise follows it. If I increase the gain so does the static noise. 

I guess time to try and reflow them? They were NIB. Paid a pretty penny.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Ok. Definitely one of the tubes is the cause. I switched the driver tubes from left to right and the low volume constant static noise follows it. If I increase the gain so does the static noise.
> 
> I guess time to try and reflow them? They were NIB. Paid a pretty penny.


Assuming you got them from our friend "down south", you can email him and he should send you a replacement.  He's excellent with customer service.


----------



## Somatic (Dec 17, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Assuming you got them from our friend "down south", you can email him and he should send you a replacement.  He's excellent with customer service.


Coolio. Was going to ping him

Edit: He is sending me a replacement. Thanks


----------



## Somatic

Ok got these from Ebay. Have a constant static sound on one tube as well. Damn. Not bad at all, but is it hard to find very silent NOS? My Melz are clean! 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125587625140


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Ok got these from Ebay. Have a constant static sound on one tube as well. Damn. Not bad at all, but is it hard to find very silent NOS? My Melz are clean!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/125587625140


Might try re-soldering the pins.  That can help quiet down that tube.  I am concerned seller didn't just measurements - that's one thing I usually look for when buying from eBay (along with positive feedback).


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> Might try re-soldering the pins.  That can help quiet down that tube.  I am concerned seller didn't just measurements - that's one thing I usually look for when buying from eBay (along with positive feedback).


Ok good to know. Thanks.


----------



## SuperRoo

I had a noisy new Melz and re-soldering fixed it. Some dude here posted an excellent youtube video on doing it.


----------



## cgb3

Paladin79 said:


> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> I do not mind using single triode tubes that are forerunners of dual triodes or adapters that are well thought out but even with those you best know circuit limitations. Those are my only comments.😉


What about roller skating in a buffalo heard, spitting into the wind, or pulling on Superman's cape?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

cgb3 said:


> What about roller skating in a buffalo heard, spitting into the wind, or pulling on Superman's cape?


You don't mess around with Jim.


----------



## Paladin79

cgb3 said:


> What about roller skating in a buffalo heard, spitting into the wind, or pulling on Superman's cape?


You are combining songs by Roger Miller and Jim Croce as best I recall.😜


----------



## ARCXENOS

I have noticed one of my kenrads vt-231's base getting looser, will that be an issue for the tube? Will its expiry happen earlier than expected?


----------



## sam6550a

Paladin79 said:


> You are combining songs by Roger Miller and Jim Croce as best I recall.😜


If you can roll tubes, I suppose that you can roll songs, at least until the copyright police show up.


----------



## sam6550a

ARCXENOS said:


> I have noticed one of my kenrads vt-231's base getting looser, will that be an issue for the tube? Will its expiry happen earlier than expected?


Reglue it. There was a discussion of how to do this a month or two ago, I believe @bcowen authored it.


----------



## ARCXENOS

sam6550a said:


> Reglue it. There was a discussion of how to do this a month or two ago, I believe @bcowen authored it.



Well I must have missed it in the search,

but I have seen krazy glue, acetone and araldite  

My loose base issue is nowhere near how it was portrayed in the video

 


I have just a very minor wiggle, but I suppose its better I try to fix it anyways. But according to that video, it doesn't meaningfully affect the tube? What do you guys think about it


----------



## JTbbb

ARCXENOS said:


> Well I must have missed it in the search,
> 
> but I have seen krazy glue, acetone and araldite
> 
> ...



I glued a TSBG using super glue, worked a treat. Tube is still going strong two years later.


----------



## Ranger Ron

ARCXENOS said:


> Well I must have missed it in the search,
> 
> but I have seen krazy glue, acetone and araldite
> 
> ...



No, it will only help the tube. If it’s not very loose I would try the acetone fix.


----------



## bcowen

ARCXENOS said:


> Well I must have missed it in the search,
> 
> but I have seen krazy glue, acetone and araldite
> 
> ...



I would apply some Krazy Glue around the juncture of the glass and the bass.  Then let the tube sit for 24 hours or so to make sure the glue cures completely.  Acetone is a solvent rather than a glue. It may melt the old adhesive and cause it to re-glue....or not, depending on the glue that was used originally.


----------



## cgb3

Paladin79 said:


> You are combining songs by Roger Miller and Jim Croce as best I recall.😜





Paladin79 said:


> You are combining songs by Roger Miller and Jim Croce as best I recall.😜


Knock 3 times on the ceiling, and Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown, but I am in the general era. Don't make me pull out Richard Pryor, cause I keep him in my back pocket.

Geese. Expect a man to be accurate after lots of mind altering experiences, and experiencing lots of altering experiences of mind.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

cgb3 said:


> Knock 3 times on the ceiling, and Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown, but I am in the general era. Don't make me pull out Richard Pryor, cause I keep him in my back pocket.
> 
> Geese. Expect a man to be accurate after lots of mind altering experiences, and experiencing lots of altering experiences of mind.


"You Don't Mess Around with Jim", not "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown".  Bonus points for Jim Croce, though - my Dad was in the National Guard with him.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 26, 2022)

As I said the quoted lyrics were a combination of artists and songs. This is one of them..

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rogermiller/youcantrollerskateinabuffaloherd.html

I am listening to a new mix of Revolver by the Beatles on vinyl, it is amazing and well worth hearing. Tubes are involved.


----------



## Somatic

This company legit? Anyone have good feedback?

https://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/


----------



## genefruit

Somatic said:


> This company legit? Anyone have good feedback?
> 
> https://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/


I purchased my GEC U52s from them a couple of years ago with no problems.


----------



## jonathan c

Somatic said:


> This company legit? Anyone have good feedback?
> 
> https://www.nosvacuumtubes.net/


A very good seller. I have ordered TS 5998, M-O-V A2900, and more. Absolutely no issues.


----------



## hottyson

ARCXENOS said:


> Well I must have missed it in the search,
> 
> but I have seen krazy glue, acetone and araldite
> 
> ...



Hot-glue gun from the dollar store?


----------



## sam6550a

hottyson said:


> Hot-glue gun from the dollar store?



Try plain old super glue--it works well.


----------



## raindownthunda

sam6550a said:


> Try plain old super glue--it works well.


I’ve tried this and it works ok. Personally I prefer the “hard as nails” clear nail polish. Takes overnight to cure but is it a lot thicker than super glue which helps fill in more substantial gaps seeming to create a better seal. Also more forgiving with slower dry time, making it easy to clean up any excess with paper towel and nail polish remover. I can’t remember but I believe it was @mordy who suggested this originally. Have used this on half dozen or so tubes with good results.


----------



## triod750

raindownthunda said:


> I can’t remember but I believe it was @mordy who suggested this originally. Have used this on half dozen or so tubes with good results.


I picked it up from @gibosi and since I use Sally Hansen Hard as nails for fly tying I tried it and it works well.


----------



## Somatic (Dec 30, 2022)

Got my immaculate Melz from Ukraine. Time to test it out.






Edit: These new Melz with the WE300B is sounding very nice.


----------



## Galapac

Somatic said:


> Got my immaculate Melz from Ukraine. Time to test it out.


Nice. Did you wait long?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Got my immaculate Melz from Ukraine. Time to test it out.


Those are clean!


----------



## Somatic

Galapac said:


> Nice. Did you wait long?


I think it took about 2-3 weeks.


----------



## Somatic

Looking for some 6SN7/6J5 tube boxes. Feel like its too expensive online. I mean they are just paper. Hmmmm...

If anyone has some spare ones to sell me, please PM. Thanks.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Looking for some 6SN7/6J5 tube boxes. Feel like its too expensive online. I mean they are just paper. Hmmmm...
> 
> If anyone has some spare ones to sell me, please PM. Thanks.


You mean just plain white storage boxes, or OEM ones?


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> You mean just plain white storage boxes, or OEM ones?


Just plain storage boxes.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Just plain storage boxes.


https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-boxes-generic-storing-vacuum-tubes


----------



## sam6550a

Somatic said:


> Looking for some 6SN7/6J5 tube boxes. Feel like its too expensive online. I mean they are just paper. Hmmmm...
> 
> If anyone has some spare ones to sell me, please PM. Thanks.


Viva Tubes has them for $0.40 each.


----------



## Somatic

This is the guy with real nice Melz. He will have some on sale in a few days. PM him in a day or two and let him know your interested. I already have 3 matched pairs. I am good for now. Good luck. 

https://www.ebay.com/ulk/usr/don69-andy?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m44.l1181&mkcid=26&ch=osgood&euid=c01327cfd0554f0387f7571bd37d4850&bu=44696364768&osub=-1~1&crd=20221231082654&segname=11051


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> This is the guy with real nice Melz. He will have some on sale in a few days. PM him in a day or two and let him know your interested. I already have 3 matched pairs. I am good for now. Good luck.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/ulk/usr/don69-andy?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m44.l1181&mkcid=26&ch=osgood&euid=c01327cfd0554f0387f7571bd37d4850&bu=44696364768&osub=-1~1&crd=20221231082654&segname=11051


yeah, he's a well-known guy here.  Good guy to buy from.


----------



## Somatic

ColSaulTigh said:


> yeah, he's a well-known guy here.  Good guy to buy from.


I’m a newbie. Good to know. Hehe


----------



## khashmi

Yup, bought from him before. Great guy!


----------



## g0ldl10n

g0ldl10n said:


> Thanks for sharing this! I was able to successfully resurrect a Sylvania 6C8G where the right channel sounded normal, but the left was barely audible sound coming thru it. Resoldered the pins, and _voila! _Works perfectly!
> 
> Only wish I had known about this before tossing a few tubes that I thought were done for - oh well, great to know now!


I want to add something to this that I just discovered today, that probably should've been obvious. 

I had a pair of troubled Marconi Triodes (MHLD6) where static would come and go intermittently, and also the sound would cut out completely at times. Well, I isolated the issue to the Top Cap (TC) and noticed that these are soldered in the same way as the pins, with a wire coming up thru the glass on the top, with solder. So essentially, a very wide pin per se.

Well, re-soldering the TC resolved the issues completely for me with these. So, if you have a troublesome tube with a TC such as 6C8G, 6F8G, etc etc., and you tried resoldering the pins with no luck, try resoldering the TC and see if that doesn't resolve the issues for you.


----------



## Somatic

Somatic said:


> Got my immaculate Melz from Ukraine. Time to test it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: These new Melz with the WE300B is sounding very nice.


I really like the sound of these. They are from 72 and 76. My other Melz are from 63. Wondering if its ok to mix different years like the 72 and 76. I was not aware they were different years when I bought it. They sound excellent though.

Anyone can reiterate the differences again on each decade for the Melz?


----------



## JeffMann (Jan 4, 2023)

I am a neophyte tube amplifier owner and I purchased my first headphone tube amplifier (Cayin HA300MK2) about 2 months ago.

I replaced the stock Gold Lion 300B tubes with Elrog ER300B tubes and I then decided to purchase a pair of RCA smoked glass 6sn7GT tubes to replace the stock Tungsol 6sn7GTB tubes because they are reputed to be warmer sounding with a silky (non-harsh) treble. I purchased an used pair for $60 from a seller on Audiogon. I very much like their sound quality and I wanted to purchase another pair that is well matched with good test results.

I have a number of questions.

I noted that I could purchase the standard version or the V231 version, which sells for much more on e-Bay. Is there a difference in expected sound quality? Is there a difference in expected lifespan presuming that they are new (unused)?

When choosing to purchase a matched pair on e-Bay, I noted that the seller may provide conductance values, which can vary from 2,400 => 3,200+ for a new (unused) NOS pair. Is there a significant difference in expected sound quality and/or tube lifespan when choosing a matched pair of these tubes that measure 2,400 versus 3,200?

Then, I noted that Vintage Audio Services charges a lot more for the same RCA smoked glass 6sn7 tubes (compared to e-Bay prices).

See - https://vintagetubeservices.com/octal-tubes/

He charges between $108 - $186 for each tube. I presume that the most expensive tubes have the lowest microphonics, which may be important if one has a tube preamp with a moving coil cartridge as a source. However, I am using a Denafrips Pontuis II DAC that has an output of 2V over an RCA connection to drive my Cayin headphone tube amplifier.  Does that mean that I can safely choose his "Line" version and still end up with a noise-free tube that has the same sound quality as his "Moving Coil" version?

Jeff.


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> I really like the sound of these. They are from 72 and 76. My other Melz are from 63. Wondering if its ok to mix different years like the 72 and 76. I was not aware they were different years when I bought it. They sound excellent though.
> 
> Anyone can reiterate the differences again on each decade for the Melz?


The later years seem to have a little more bass punch but less high extension. It takes a bit of critical listening to distinguish their comparative difference but
I personally have only kept the early years as they retain more of that 3D.


----------



## whirlwind

V231 versions of these tubes means they were made for the military.


----------



## JeffMann

whirlwind said:


> V231 versions of these tubes means they were made for the military.


I am aware of that fact, which suggests that the V231 version of that tube is more ruggedly constructed. However, does that mean it sounds better or lasts longer under standard use in an audio tube amplifier (like my Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier)?

Jeff.


----------



## Somatic

JeffMann said:


> I am aware of that fact, which suggests that the V231 version of that tube is more ruggedly constructed. However, does that mean it sounds better or lasts longer under standard use in an audio tube amplifier (like my Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier)?
> 
> Jeff.


How are you liking that amp? Any noise issues or transformer hum etc? I was going to get that one before the Envy.


----------



## mordy

JeffMann said:


> I am aware of that fact, which suggests that the V231 version of that tube is more ruggedly constructed. However, does that mean it sounds better or lasts longer under standard use in an audio tube amplifier (like my Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier)?
> 
> Jeff.


As far as I know there is no correlation between the ruggedness and extended life span of a tube and the sound. Some tubes have additional micas and support rods to prevent microphonics.
In addition, as far as I know, the sound of a tube is not affected by smoked glass vs clear glass, although many dealers are charging more for smoked glass versions.
My theory is that unscrupulous dealers are capitalizing on tube characteristics that are easily discernible by the masses. Brown base, red base, curved base, smoked glass etc anybody can see and thus these identifiers become a reason to charge higher prices.
And forget about a tube without the tube glow or with low tube glow….


----------



## lupoal

Hi,
sorry for the probably most common question of the century but I’m in trouble finding a replay so… 
I bought a couple of Sylvania (branded Baldwin) 6SN7GBT… there are two codes
3 1
1 1
2 3
so 312 means Sylvania and 113 should be the production date… ok, what is the production date?
thks in advance


----------



## whirlwind

JeffMann said:


> I am aware of that fact, which suggests that the V231 version of that tube is more ruggedly constructed. However, does that mean it sounds better or lasts longer under standard use in an audio tube amplifier (like my Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier)?
> 
> Jeff.


No, as already mentioned the sound should be the same....maybe less chance of back round noise because it is constructed for more rugged use.

If tubes would be the same price I would opt for military version, not sure I would pay a lot extra for them though.


----------



## mordy

lupoal said:


> Hi,
> sorry for the probably most common question of the century but I’m in trouble finding a replay so…
> I bought a couple of Sylvania (branded Baldwin) 6SN7GBT… there are two codes
> 3 1
> ...


312 is the EIA (Electronics Industry Association) code for Sylvania and 113 means the 13th week  (April) of 1961.


----------



## JeffMann

Somatic said:


> How are you liking that amp? Any noise issues or transformer hum etc? I was going to get that one before the Envy.


I love the amp. It is dead-silent and there is no transformer noise or any noise heard through my headphones. 

I have one problem - using a RCA connection between my Denafrips Pontus II DAC and the Cayin amp. The volume control with my Susvara headphone is between 10 - 12 o'clock at my normal listening level, which is excellent. However, with my HD800 headphone it is between 7 - 7:30 o'clock, which is problematic because the sound volume changes between each step in the volume control is too large. 

Jeff.


----------



## Somatic

Wondering what is a good tube tester for beginners? I am looking to test 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants. Thank you.


----------



## Somatic

Wondering something, if someone buys the Tung-Sol 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants of the same year/plate will they sound the same or still have a variation in sound. 

So far seems I'm on team TS and Melz. Not feeling Ken-Rads. RCA smoked glass is ok, but feels too blunted/warm. Thanks.


----------



## JTbbb

Somatic said:


> Wondering something, if someone buys the Tung-Sol 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants of the same year/plate will they sound the same or still have a variation in sound.
> 
> So far seems I'm on team TS and Melz. Not feeling Ken-Rads. RCA smoked glass is ok, but feels too blunted/warm. Thanks.


You need to try some British tubes 👍. Just sayin!


----------



## Somatic

JTbbb said:


> You need to try some British tubes 👍. Just sayin!


Which ones are your favorites? Man this rabbit hole will never end. hehe


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Which ones are your favorites? Man this rabbit hole will never end. hehe


Your wallet will never forgive you.


----------



## JTbbb

Somatic said:


> Which ones are your favorites? Man this rabbit hole will never end. hehe


Brimar CV1988’s

Drop me a PM


----------



## sam6550a

Somatic said:


> Wondering what is a good tube tester for beginners? I am looking to test 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants. Thank you.


The B&K 707 and its variants is a good choice.


----------



## mordy

Somatic said:


> Wondering what is a good tube tester for beginners? I am looking to test 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants. Thank you.


Based on readings and discussions on the forums I have arrived at certain truths about tube testers that usually aren't talked about.
*The main function of a tube tester is to tell you if a tube is bad.*
In our applications many tubes that don't measure so well sound just fine and can last a very long time.
You may not be able to hear any difference between a tube that measures 100% and one that measures minimum good.
Unscrupulous sellers are able to manipulate the tube testers so that they show very good values for marginal or sub marginal tubes.
Some sellers want to talk you into that you need to change the tubes often. The truth is that many tubes can last for years of service - some people report using the same tubes for 20 years and they still have life in them and sound good.
Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware!


----------



## lupoal

mordy said:


> 312 is the EIA (Electronics Industry Association) code for Sylvania and 113 means the 13th week  (April) of 1961.


Thank you Mordy 
is there a place where I can find codes of the different manufacturers? If I remember right each of them use their own code structure and they change it also during the production period… for example I would like to know then what could be a code for a Sylvania made in May 1957… or 1951

I remember I found a web page with these info but… I lost it


----------



## OctavianH

Somatic said:


> Wondering what is a good tube tester for beginners? I am looking to test 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants. Thank you.


I use this one and for beginners is good. I bought it cheaper but with latest inflation rates the small increase in price is normal. It has an octal and noval socket and you can make the connections according to the pinout. For 6F8G you'll need an adapter to 6SN7 but I guess you already have one.
https://www.radioelec.com/lampemetr...bes-valves-oeil-magique-xml-352_387-1507.html

And regarding sellers and their measurements, it's exactly like mordy's saying. They measure at different values than your amp's operating point, and some of them are not reporting the right results. These testers need to be calibrated and so on... I have my doubts on all those measurements and indeed, I have a lot of old tubes measuring 60-70% according to the datasheet and they work perfectly for years.


----------



## JTbbb

mordy said:


> Based on readings and discussions on the forums I have arrived at certain truths about tube testers that usually aren't talked about.
> *The main function of a tube tester is to tell you if a tube is bad.*
> In our applications many tubes that don't measure so well sound just fine and can last a very long time.
> You may not be able to hear any difference between a tube that measures 100% and one that measures minimum good.
> ...


Here is the reply I had from a professional tube tester I use. He rebuilds tube amps and tube testers for a living. This is in relation to 5998/WE421A.
But essentially relates to tubes in general.


“The PC/TC figures are pretty much a standard that people use to buy / sell valves to give an idea of their ‘goodness’, but in reality the 421A / 5998s are very high power triodes used mainly in Military applications back in the day, so to be honest for the purposes of matching the valves for your preamp, the PC score is really irrelevant, whether a valve can drive 90mA or 40mA is of no consequence when it is in circuit driving 5/6mA, they will pretty much all work until they become noisy or completely exhausted. A more useful parameter to match against is the TC (transconductance, loosely described as the gain of the valve), so use that as a basis  for matching, but again don’t worry unduly, because I think you would be hard pushed to hear the difference between a valve with a TC of 9 or 14, but always good practice to get as close as possible. The main criteria with your amp I would suggest is how noisy they are, as that directly affects the listening experience, old valves can become noisy and microphonic, as you know”.


----------



## mordy

lupoal said:


> Thank you Mordy
> is there a place where I can find codes of the different manufacturers? If I remember right each of them use their own code structure and they change it also during the production period… for example I would like to know then what could be a code for a Sylvania made in May 1957… or 1951
> 
> I remember I found a web page with these info but… I lost it


Here is a reference to different EIA code lists for different years:
https://www.ecianow.org/eia-source-codes

As far as I know the EIA codes did not change for manufacturers, but perhaps a code was added when a company would buy another company (?).

Regarding you Sylvania question, a number of companies switched to different date coding systems, or sometimes even having two systems being used at the same time - for example for civilian and military use. Usually the military date code is straight forward - 52-39 would mean 39th week 1952.

Sylvania tubes from the early 50s have two date codes - one on the base of the tube and one on the glass under the tube designation logo. Presumably one code is manufacturing date and the other shipping date - there could be several months discrepancy.
Here is an example - a Motorola 6J5GT tube. The base says 312026 and under the 6J5GT on the glass it says COM.
COM:
C = March (count ABC on your fingers but skip I because it is too easily confused with 1)
0 = 1950
M = maybe the factory

312 is the Sylvania EIA code
026 means 1950 26th week (June)

So the tube was made in March 1950 and shipped in June 1950.

Another example - a FoMoCo 6J5GT tube (Ford Motor Company) has the following codes:
L9M and 312 026.
L = November
9 = 1949
M = factory
312 and 026 as above; in other words both tubes were shipped at the same time but manufactured several months apart.

Tung Sol codes are a complete mystery - it appears that the date codes indicate the end of the warranty period. Sometimes the original tube box will have a date printed, and you may be able to compare it to the date code on the tube base.

Sometimes the date code follows the alphabet but starting in the middle with N being the starting point (January). I have an Arcturus 6N7G tube that says N4 N4 on the base. IMHO it means that the tube was manufactured and shipped in January 1944.

Except for the military dating code there is no real standard and each manufacturer may use their own system.


----------



## raindownthunda (Jan 6, 2023)

JTbbb said:


> Here is the reply I had from a professional tube tester I use. He rebuilds tube amps and tube testers for a living. This is in relation to 5998/WE421A.
> But essentially relates to tubes in general.
> 
> 
> “The PC/TC figures are pretty much a standard that people use to buy / sell valves to give an idea of their ‘goodness’, but in reality the 421A / 5998s are very high power triodes used mainly in Military applications back in the day, so to be honest for the purposes of matching the valves for your preamp, the PC score is really irrelevant, whether a valve can drive 90mA or 40mA is of no consequence when it is in circuit driving 5/6mA, they will pretty much all work until they become noisy or completely exhausted. A more useful parameter to match against is the TC (transconductance, loosely described as the gain of the valve), so use that as a basis  for matching, but again don’t worry unduly, because I think you would be hard pushed to hear the difference between a valve with a TC of 9 or 14, but always good practice to get as close as possible. The main criteria with your amp I would suggest is how noisy they are, as that directly affects the listening experience, old valves can become noisy and microphonic, as you know”.


Yep, I can attest to this from personal experience in using power tubes in my BHC. I recently acquired a “low testing/below minimum good” WE 421A for a very, very cheap price. It tested something like 20 where 40 is ”min good” on TV7. It sounds exactly the same to my ears as another 421A I have that tests near NOS and is dead silent. Will it last as long? Probably not, but I’m rotating through other power tubes enough I would be surprised if it dies out any time soon.

I did get one low testing TS BGRP 6SN7 that is very microphonic and noisy, however I don’t know if this is correlated with the low test results. So YMMV but in my experience it’s worth gambling if you can get a good price- you’re likely to be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## mordy

raindownthunda said:


> Yep, I can attest to this from personal experience in using power tubes in my BHC. I recently acquired a “low testing/below minimum good” WE 421A for a very, very cheap price. It tested something like 20 where 40 is ”min good” on TV7. It sounds exactly the same to my ears as another 421A I have that tests near NOS and is dead silent. Will it last as long? Probably not, but I’m rotating through other power tubes enough I would be surprised if it dies out any time soon.
> 
> I did get one low testing TS BGRP 6SN7 that is very microphonic and noisy, however I don’t know if this is correlated with the low test results. So YMMV but in my experience it’s worth gambling if you can get a good price- you’re likely to be pleasantly surprised.


The WE tubes are known to be very long lasting.


----------



## LobalWarming

mordy said:


> The WE tubes are known to be very long lasting.


That's what she said.


----------



## JTbbb

raindownthunda said:


> Yep, I can attest to this from personal experience in using power tubes in my BHC. I recently acquired a “low testing/below minimum good” WE 421A for a very, very cheap price. It tested something like 20 where 40 is ”min good” on TV7. It sounds exactly the same to my ears as another 421A I have that tests near NOS and is dead silent. Will it last as long? Probably not, but I’m rotating through other power tubes enough I would be surprised if it dies out any time soon.
> 
> I did get one low testing TS BGRP 6SN7 that is very microphonic and noisy, however I don’t know if this is correlated with the low test results. So YMMV but in my experience it’s worth gambling if you can get a good price- you’re likely to be pleasantly surprised.


This sounds beautiful, just like the NOS ones I have and is as quiet as a mouse. I know someone who would throw this in the bin!


----------



## Isaacc7

Somatic said:


> Wondering something, if someone buys the Tung-Sol 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants of the same year/plate will they sound the same or still have a variation in sound.
> 
> So far seems I'm on team TS and Melz. Not feeling Ken-Rads. RCA smoked glass is ok, but feels too blunted/warm. Thanks.


The consensus seems to be that the 6f8g and 6sn7 round plate black glass are the same thing. Tung Sol didn’t make a 6j5 with the same plate. There are round plate 6j5gt tubes labeled Tung Sol but they are actually Sylvania tubes. They are good tubes but don’t sound like the Tung Sol 6sn7.


----------



## JTbbb

Isaacc7 said:


> The consensus seems to be that the 6f8g and 6sn7 round plate black glass are the same thing. Tung Sol didn’t make a 6j5 with the same plate. There are round plate 6j5gt tubes labeled Tung Sol but they are actually Sylvania tubes. They are good tubes but don’t sound like the Tung Sol 6sn7.


This is a flat plate is it not?


----------



## LobalWarming

JTbbb said:


> This is a flat plate is it not?


It's the ladder. ;--)


----------



## Isaacc7

JTbbb said:


> This is a flat plate is it not?


Yup, and I believe that those are actually made by Tung Sol. Much earlier in this thread there were some pictures of tungsol 6j5gt with round plates but they are identical with Sylvania 6j5gt. Incidentally, those Sylvania tubes are pretty cheap and well worth hearing. Like all tubes, they don’t match with everything but they can match well with some.


----------



## hottyson

Somatic said:


> Wondering what is a good tube tester for beginners? I am looking to test 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants. Thank you.


I do own a Dyna Jet 606 tube tester. However, for a beginner one might already be set testing tubes in their amplifiers. I test my 6SN7 tubes every time I insert them in my Darkvoice tube amplifiers or my Eufonika H5DS tube amplifier using my hearing. This seems useful enough instead of plugging them into Dyna Jet 606. If they sound balanced and matched, all is well. I also sometimes try to purchase more than one of the same tube so that I can compare them A/B in my amplifiers to hear if there might be something comparably wrong with a tube. The Dyna Jet mostly becomes handy at times after I have heard something wrong with a tube.
.
My Dyna Jet 606 is easy to use and beginner friendly. It requires that one look up the tube being tested within the included manual, and then dial in the settings, and finally press the test button. Simple. However, if you are going to purchase a tube tester, you probably should not skimp and should go straight for a well regarded Hickok tester. Hickok testers can be repaired more easily if something goes wrong because they contain replaceable/acquirable parts.


----------



## lupoal

mordy said:


> Here is a reference to different EIA code lists for different years:
> https://www.ecianow.org/eia-source-codes
> 
> As far as I know the EIA codes did not change for manufacturers, but perhaps a code was added when a company would buy another company (?).
> ...


thanks 
in the meantime I've received some additional info from one of my friends, I will share here in case could be interesting/useful... 

_RMA/EIA Open Date Code

Starting in 1946 the American tube manufactures agreed to an open date code printed on their tubes. It was a 3-digit numerical code with the first number representing the year. It was followed with a two digit number representing the week it was made.
This was to standardize date-codes that were on American made tubes. Until 1946 there were a confusing array of secret code systems known only to the tube company. Each company had their own individual secret code.
6  is 1946
7 is 1947
8 is 1948
9 is 1949
0 is 1950
1 is 1951
2 is 1952
3 is 1953
4 is 1954
5 is 1955
example: the date-code 601 means the tube was manufactured the first week of 1946; another date would be 945 and would mean the forty-fifth week of 1949; and the date of 450 means the fiftieth week of 1954.
In 1955 they started using the 4 digit open code system with the first two numbers representing the year. So..
1. 55 is 1955
2. 56 is 1956
3. 57 is 1957
4. 58 is 1958
5. 59 is 1959
and so on.
example: 55-09 means the ninth week of 1955; 59-43 would be the forty-third week of 1959.
At the same time some companies like RCA also used a secret in-house date-code of two letters like KH on SOME of their tubes. The first letter represented the year and the second letter was the month of manufacture. They used this two letter system mainly in the mid 1950s and then again in the mid 1960s.
At the same time they were also still using the using the open code system. I am not sure why they went back to a secret code for some of their tubes._​
so it seams my tubes could be from April 1951... happy about that


----------



## mordy

Isaacc7 said:


> The consensus seems to be that the 6f8g and 6sn7 round plate black glass are the same thing. Tung Sol didn’t make a 6j5 with the same plate. There are round plate 6j5gt tubes labeled Tung Sol but they are actually Sylvania tubes. They are good tubes but don’t sound like the Tung Sol 6sn7.


I have Tung Sol 6F8G flat plates - do they sound different than the round plates?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

mordy said:


> I have Tung Sol 6F8G flat plates - do they sound different than the round plates?


Slightly, but not enough to get too bent out of shape about.  Slightly dryer.  That's about it.


----------



## triod750

What about the difference between 6C8G and 6F8G? What magnitude and in what way?


----------



## mordy

lupoal said:


> thanks
> in the meantime I've received some additional info from one of my friends, I will share here in case could be interesting/useful...
> 
> _RMA/EIA Open Date Code_​​_Starting in 1946 the American tube manufactures agreed to an open date code printed on their tubes. It was a 3-digit numerical code with the first number representing the year. It was followed with a two digit number representing the week it was made._​_This was to standardize date-codes that were on American made tubes. Until 1946 there were a confusing array of secret code systems known only to the tube company. Each company had their own individual secret code._​_6  is 1946_​_7 is 1947_​_8 is 1948_​_9 is 1949_​_0 is 1950_​_1 is 1951_​_2 is 1952_​_3 is 1953_​_4 is 1954_​_5 is 1955_​_example: the date-code 601 means the tube was manufactured the first week of 1946; another date would be 945 and would mean the forty-fifth week of 1949; and the date of 450 means the fiftieth week of 1954._​_In 1955 they started using the 4 digit open code system with the first two numbers representing the year. So.._​_1. 55 is 1955_​_2. 56 is 1956_​_3. 57 is 1957_​_4. 58 is 1958_​_5. 59 is 1959_​_and so on._​_example: 55-09 means the ninth week of 1955; 59-43 would be the forty-third week of 1959._​_At the same time some companies like RCA also used a secret in-house date-code of two letters like KH on SOME of their tubes. The first letter represented the year and the second letter was the month of manufacture. They used this two letter system mainly in the mid 1950s and then again in the mid 1960s._​_At the same time they were also still using the using the open code system. I am not sure why they went back to a secret code for some of their tubes._​
> so it seams my tubes could be from April 1951... happy about that


You do need one more piece of the puzzle - when did the manufacturers switch from 6SN7GTA to GTB?

Here is a reference to RCA coding. The early stuff is confusing, but the letter codes 1956 to 1976 are easy:
https://moam.info/date-codes-for-rca-made-tubes-ludwell-sibley_59c536a71723dd2a1c99fa60.html

BTW, I have a RCA labeled tube with a two letter code that does not appear in the chart, but can be found in a GE letter chart; however, no white dots...


----------



## paradoxper

Somatic said:


> Wondering what is a good tube tester for beginners? I am looking to test 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5 variants. Thank you.


Grab the Amplitrex AT1000. It is amongst the best and will provide you a peace of mind with 300B.


----------



## mordy

paradoxper said:


> Grab the Amplitrex AT1000. It is amongst the best and will provide you a peace of mind with 300B.


I would grab one too, but I believe that the price is in the $3000 range...


----------



## ColSaulTigh

mordy said:


> I would grab one too, but I believe that the price is in the $3000 range...


INB4 "buy one, cry once".


----------



## mordy

ColSaulTigh said:


> INB4 "buy one, cry once".


WAF (_Wife Approval Factor) _?


----------



## raindownthunda

mordy said:


> I would grab one too, but I believe that the price is in the $3000 range...


I wish the local library had tube testers.


----------



## mordy

raindownthunda said:


> I wish the local library had tube testers.


I remember when Radio Shack and hardware stores had tube testers....


----------



## Ranger Ron

triod750 said:


> What about the difference between 6C8G and 6F8G? What magnitude and in what way?


6C8G has more gain.


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> What about the difference between 6C8G and 6F8G? What magnitude and in what way?


It depends on the amp. I just switched between the Tung Sol BGRP 12sn7 to the 6c8g in my Odyssey, a push pull amp. Once I adjusted the volume I think they sound pretty similar thought the 6c8g are a little cleaner I think. That could just be down to these particular tubes. In my single ended amp, the 6c8g sounds faster and more forward as compared to the 12sn7. My PP amp is, in general, pretty tolerant of having either *sn7 or *sl7 in the input. The 6c8g slots right in between them. My single ended amp doesn’t react nearly as well to *sl7, it gets too forward and bright. Yes, both amps are “compatible” with just about every octal twin triode in that the amp works but the sound suffers when you drift too far. I love the cv1102/bl63 in my single ended amp but it just doesn’t work in my push pull. 

Long story short, 6f8g and 6c8g might sound similar other than volume but they might not.


----------



## triod750

Thank you for your replies. The only 6F8G I have is National Union. I have one NU 6C8G too. This one has not got much time yet so no comparison made. I have among my 6C8G two Ken Rad; one with round plates and one with staggered ladder plates. Of these I prefer the latter. Will I be banned for a week now?


----------



## Isaacc7

triod750 said:


> Thank you for your replies. The only 6F8G I have is National Union. I have one NU 6C8G too. This one has not got much time yet so no comparison made. I have among my 6C8G two Ken Rad; one with round plates and one with staggered ladder plates. Of these I prefer the latter. Will I be banned for a week now?


Huh, I haven’t actually been looking closely at them but I assumed that all 6c8g tubes had round plates. TIL


----------



## mordy

Isaacc7 said:


> Huh, I haven’t actually been looking closely at them but I assumed that all 6c8g tubes had round plates. TIL


Checked the 7 6C8G tubes from various manufacturers that I have - they all have round plates.


----------



## triod750

I checked my tube and well, it's a close relative namely 6F8G .
I like it anyway!! 

Now let's talk about something else...


----------



## Somatic

Ok, been collecting tubes at a decent pace. Would like to store my 300B, 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5s. I initially was looking at a type of pelican case, but looking for something that is not too big either.

Any innovative storage solutions out there? Thank you everyone.


----------



## Mr Trev

Somatic said:


> Ok, been collecting tubes at a decent pace. Would like to store my 300B, 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5s. I initially was looking at a type of pelican case, but looking for something that is not too big either.
> 
> Any innovative storage solutions out there? Thank you everyone.


I've just been using those Ziploc tubs. Granted most of my tubes are 9 pin, but keep them boxed and they fit inside nicely (that includes the octals)


----------



## mordy

Mr Trev said:


> I've just been using those Ziploc tubs. Granted most of my tubes are 9 pin, but keep them boxed and they fit inside nicely (that includes the octals)


Could you send a picture or link?


----------



## Mr Trev

https://ziploc.com/en/Products/Containers/Square/Deep-Square-Containers
You can get em cheap at pretty much any grocery store. Nothing remotely fancy, but they do the job for me


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> Ok, been collecting tubes at a decent pace. Would like to store my 300B, 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5s. I initially was looking at a type of pelican case, but looking for something that is not too big either.
> 
> Any innovative storage solutions out there? Thank you everyone.


Go big or go home.


----------



## LobalWarming

Mr Trev said:


> https://ziploc.com/en/Products/Containers/Square/Deep-Square-Containers
> You can get em cheap at pretty much any grocery store. Nothing remotely fancy, but they do the job for me


B-b-but... they're so _small_. Me and @bcowen would need tens of thousands of them. That's too much lid snapping nervosa for me.


----------



## Isaacc7

Somatic said:


> Ok, been collecting tubes at a decent pace. Would like to store my 300B, 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5s. I initially was looking at a type of pelican case, but looking for something that is not too big either.
> 
> Any innovative storage solutions out there? Thank you everyone.


Eh, in boxes on shelves has been fine for the past 80+ years. I don’t feel like reinventing the wheel. I have 8-9 boxes of tubes separated out by tube type. It would cost a lot to put them in pelican cases to store that many. That’s a lot of money that could be spent on more tubes! Unless you are in an earthquake or flooding zone I’m not sure why you’d need to get too fancy with storing tubes. They’re just sitting there after all.


----------



## Mr Trev

LobalWarming said:


> B-b-but... they're so _small_. Me and @bcowen would need tens of thousands of them. That's too much lid snapping nervosa for me.


Fine…
https://www.conexwest.com/shipping-containers-sale


----------



## Somatic

Mr Trev said:


> Fine…
> https://www.conexwest.com/shipping-containers-sale


Why stop there?!


----------



## Mr Trev

Somatic said:


> Why stop there?!


Actually, I did hear a rumour that @LobalWarming was trying to get his hands on that barge that washed up in Vancouver just for these purposes


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Mr Trev said:


> Fine…
> https://www.conexwest.com/shipping-containers-sale


I buy these all the time for work - maybe I should have one "misdirected" to the house...


----------



## mordy

ColSaulTigh said:


> Go big or go home.


What


ColSaulTigh said:


> Go big or go home.


 What happens if you open the case upside down?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

mordy said:


> What
> 
> What happens if you open the case upside down?


Well, you can't, because of how the latches open.  But if you did, the tubes are snug enough in there that they're not going to go anywhere.


----------



## LobalWarming

Mr Trev said:


> Fine…
> https://www.conexwest.com/shipping-containers-sale


Nice. Are they indirectly or directly heated?


----------



## raindownthunda

Somatic said:


> Ok, been collecting tubes at a decent pace. Would like to store my 300B, 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5s. I initially was looking at a type of pelican case, but looking for something that is not too big either.
> 
> Any innovative storage solutions out there? Thank you everyone.


These small and large Tidy Boxes from Container Store are what I've found to be perfect if you store your tubes in boxes. The corners aren't too rounded so the boxes fit nice and snug: https://www.containerstore.com/s/st...r-tidy-boxes/12d?p=0&ps=62&productId=11015610


----------



## jonathan c

Somatic said:


> Why stop there?!


Immediate ‘raging bull market’ for tubes if 👆is torpedoed….


----------



## sam6550a

Somatic said:


> Why stop there?!


That is @bcowen's stash of tubes heading for storage.


----------



## Mr Trev

raindownthunda said:


> These small and large Tidy Boxes from Container Store are what I've found to be perfect if you store your tubes in boxes. The corners aren't too rounded so the boxes fit nice and snug: https://www.containerstore.com/s/st...r-tidy-boxes/12d?p=0&ps=62&productId=11015610


This begs the question… if you order them online, what are they shipped in? A bigger Tidy Box?


----------



## LobalWarming

Mr Trev said:


> This begs the question… if you order them online, what are they shipped in? A bigger Tidy Box?


I hope it would be something rugged enough to protect the transparent patina...


----------



## Mr Trev

LobalWarming said:


> I hope it would be something rugged enough to protect the transparent patina...


Dunno why, but my first thought when I saw the pic was "hobo sauna"


----------



## LobalWarming

Mr Trev said:


> Dunno why, but my first thought when I saw the pic was "hobo sauna"


Nothing hobo about it. That's some solid wood and d-grade plywood, not cardboard.


----------



## jonathan c

LobalWarming said:


> I hope it would be something rugged enough to protect the transparent patina...


A @bcowen hi-rise ! Just needs a coat of Carolina Blue…💙…😂


----------



## whirlwind

raindownthunda said:


> These small and large Tidy Boxes from Container Store are what I've found to be perfect if you store your tubes in boxes. The corners aren't too rounded so the boxes fit nice and snug: https://www.containerstore.com/s/st...r-tidy-boxes/12d?p=0&ps=62&productId=11015610


These work great and you can store the tubes upright


----------



## Somatic

I think I will find a larger cigar box from the cigar shop to store the 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5s. You can get these for cheap.


----------



## incredulousity (Tuesday at 11:26 AM)

Container ship...

Group buy of Chinese tubes?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Somatic said:


> I think I will find a larger cigar box from the cigar shop to store the 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5s. You can get these for cheap.


Yep, you can get them from Amazon, too.  But now that you've started collecting you won't stop, and that means more and more cigar boxes....

You might as well break down and get one of these:


----------



## Ranger Ron

Hard to beat a kitchen cabinet!


----------



## Somatic

Ranger Ron said:


> Hard to beat a kitchen cabinet!


Did you get a solid piece of wood and install socket savers on them?


----------



## Ranger Ron

Ranger Ron said:


> Hard to beat a kitchen





Somatic said:


> Did you get a solid piece of wood and install socket savers on them?


That would be slick for displaying tubes.  I just drilled holes wide enough to accept the tube pins, left a little wood on the bottom so miniature tubes can sit with the big boys and not fall to the floor when I pull them out from time to time to remember what I have in there.


----------



## cgb3 (Tuesday at 9:30 PM)

whirlwind said:


> No, as already mentioned the sound should be the same....maybe less chance of back round noise because it is constructed for more rugged use.
> 
> If tubes would be the same price I would opt for military version, not sure I would pay a lot extra for them though.


Several arguments may be made.

Military grade: more robust, able to withstand harsh conditions, top echelon picked examples.

Reality: The government creates a specification. The various manufacturers supply their design. Lowest acquisition cost gets the contract. (Unless it's WWII and the government is buying everything available).

I've often thought WWII was one of the best era's in US history to make a fortune. So much needed, so little oversight.


----------



## Wes S (Wednesday at 8:52 AM)

Kind of shocked this tube has not been talked about much in this thread. . .





RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates w/Ceramic Spacers and Dual Foil Cup Getters - Best bass I have heard from a 6SN7 that slams and has detail and texture like no other, mids that are clean and clear with transparency through the roof and vocals that are huge/forward and project out in front, with highs that sparkle and really good staging as well.  Overall, it's very well balanced with outstanding dynamics and works extremely well paired up with some Elrog ER300B's, and makes my ZMF's sing to their full potential.  The RFT is quite rare and expensive at the moment, but can be found from time to time for around $350 a pair if you are diligent in your search.  I love this tube so much I have 5 pairs, and hopefully they last me until a can't hear anymore.

Of note there is a latter version, with a single foil getter and stapled plates and it's does not have the magic of the earlier version, and is not worth the current asking price.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Wes S said:


> Kind of shocked this tube has not been talked about much in this thread. . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I could find a pair from a reputable seller I'd buy a pair, but everything I come across comes from Vietnam and I don't know if I can trust that seller...


----------



## Wes S (Wednesday at 8:55 AM)

ColSaulTigh said:


> If I could find a pair from a reputable seller I'd buy a pair, but everything I come across comes from Vietnam and I don't know if I can trust that seller...


If I see some I will let you know, and that seller from Vietnam is legit but expensive.  That seller has both versions, and I would avoid the latter version from 58'.


----------



## paradoxper (Wednesday at 9:05 AM)

Wes S said:


> If I see some I will let you know, and that seller from Vietnam is legit but expensive.  That seller has both versions, and I would avoid the latter version from 58'.


He is a bitch but is legit. I bought a pair of Elrogs from him during the great despair amongst many others.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wes S said:


> Kind of shocked this tube has not been talked about much in this thread. . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think I know why!


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I think I know why!


…. once again, owners 😀 talk it up, sellers 😏 mark it up….


----------



## TLO

Wes S said:


> Kind of shocked this tube has not been talked about much in this thread. . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am even more shocked that ppl dont talk much about using other alternative tubes to replace 6SN7, not to mention a lot of them, NOS, cost around USD10 more or less a piece. Hell, they are not even triode!!! OK, will I get banned now?


----------



## Wes S (Wednesday at 1:24 PM)

TLO said:


> I am even more shocked that ppl dont talk much about using other alternative tubes to replace 6SN7, not to mention a lot of them, NOS, cost around USD10 more or less a piece. Hell, they are not even triode!!! OK, will I get banned now?


There's already a thread for that.   I doubt they can best the RFT, but I am sure that some can hang.  Also, the good alternatives cost just as much these days.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> I think I know why!


That seller is not a good one to judge pricing off of, as he is about 50% more expensive than most other dealers.  Also, that top pair from 58' is no where near as good as the bottom pair.


----------



## jonathan c

My point is that I suspect that some tube sellers scroll Head-Fi threads (and others) to gauge “what’s hot, what’s not”…


----------



## TLO

Wes S said:


> There's already a thread for that.   I doubt they can best the RFT, but I am sure that some can hang.  Also, the good alternatives cost just as much these days.


If the good alternatives you found cost as much as 6SN7, it means you have not explored far enough...  Just saying...
Most of the NOS British tubes I bought nowadays cost from around USD7.50 to USD15 a piece and all of them sound better than all of the 6SN7 I have tried.
OK, I will shut up now before I get banned...


----------



## jonathan c

TLO said:


> …OK, I will shut up now before I get banned...


….listen to this, instead….🙂:


----------



## raindownthunda

Can’t we all just agree that the tube you’re happy with listening to is the best tube? Regardless the make, model, cost, rarity, etc. Stand up against tube supremacy!


----------



## Wes S

raindownthunda said:


> Can’t we all just agree that the tube you’re happy with listening to is the best tube? Regardless the make, model, cost, rarity, etc. Stand up against tube supremacy!


I will agree with that.  I just popped in to share my thoughts on a killer tube so perhaps others can experience the magic it brings.  I have been content before and it's not always greener on the other side, but then again sometimes it is . . .


----------



## Wes S

jonathan c said:


> My point is that I suspect that some tube sellers scroll Head-Fi threads (and others) to gauge “what’s hot, what’s not”…


Exactly, and that's why I brought it up.  I have chatted up other tubes that were hard to find, and they listened and now others can easily find said tubes.


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> Exactly, and that's why I brought it up.  I have chatted up other tubes that were hard to find, and they listened and now others can easily find said tubes.


Every tube gets chatted up, no one forces anyone to do anything. You share and live within your means.


----------



## leftside

TLO said:


> I am even more shocked that ppl dont talk much about using other alternative tubes to replace 6SN7, not to mention a lot of them, NOS, cost around USD10 more or less a piece. Hell, they are not even triode!!! OK, will I get banned now?





Wes S said:


> There's already a thread for that.   I doubt they can best the RFT, but I am sure that some can hang.  Also, the good alternatives cost just as much these days.


Yeah the 6J5 thread  RFT 6J5 are very good. Used to be cheap as chips...


----------



## raindownthunda (Wednesday at 6:57 PM)

Wes S said:


> I will agree with that.  I just popped in to share my thoughts on a killer tube so perhaps others can experience the magic it brings.  I have been content before and it's not always greener on the other side, but then again sometimes it is . . .


I always appreciate your shares, Wes! I was mainly being satirical since they are out of budget for most of us and so scarce. Although I'm sure they are great sounding tubes and trust you know a good tube when you hear one. I can personally attest that the mindset of needing to jump on "the next best tube" bandwagon is a dangerous one for the wallet! (cries in G73-R). I'm learning to more and more appreciate synergy between power + driver over a single superior tube, and am personally more of a fanboy for the tubes in "the other thread"  although I do have some 6SN7 I enjoy very much.


----------



## LobalWarming

leftside said:


> Yeah the 6J5 thread  RFT 6J5 are very good. Used to be cheap as chips...


Those were the days... now even chips aren't cheap as chips


----------



## jonathan c

LobalWarming said:


> Those were the days... now even chips aren't cheap as chips


“Those were the days, my friend; we thought they’d never end…”  

  Mary Hopkin [Apple Records: 1968]


----------



## bcowen

sam6550a said:


> That is @bcowen's stash of tubes heading for storage.


Actually, that's just the Fotons.   🤣


----------



## bcowen

Somatic said:


> Ok, been collecting tubes at a decent pace. Would like to store my 300B, 6SN7, 6F8G and 6J5s. I initially was looking at a type of pelican case, but looking for something that is not too big either.
> 
> Any innovative storage solutions out there? Thank you everyone.


Depending on how many tubes you have, a good 'ol tube caddy.  Hard to find them in pristine condition these days, but they are out there.  This one was still factory sealed in its shipping box....


----------



## jonathan c

Somatic said:


>


----------



## Isaacc7

Why is my left channel silent? Sigh, time to start troubleshooting. Oh, the heater isn’t lit on my left TS BGRP. As they’d say on Mythbusters, well there’s your problem right there! No troubleshooting required lol. 

This does bring home something that I joke about from time to time but I am actually serious. Tubes can fail. The good ones keep getting more and more expensive to replace. I’m down one TS BGRP but I have quite a few left in reserve. We can joke about being hoarders but the reality is that you should probably buy what you think you will need for the rest of your life. Even new tubes aren’t guaranteed to be around when you need them. Buy them as you find them and can afford them!


----------



## JTbbb

Isaacc7 said:


> Why is my left channel silent? Sigh, time to start troubleshooting. Oh, the heater isn’t lit on my left TS BGRP. As they’d say on Mythbusters, well there’s your problem right there! No troubleshooting required lol.
> 
> This does bring home something that I joke about from time to time but I am actually serious. Tubes can fail. The good ones keep getting more and more expensive to replace. I’m down one TS BGRP but I have quite a few left in reserve. We can joke about being hoarders but the reality is that you should probably buy what you think you will need for the rest of your life. Even new tubes aren’t guaranteed to be around when you need them. Buy them as you find them and can afford them!


I take it that whilst the amplifier was on you gently wiggled the tube around? I’ve done this and the heater started glowing and along came the music. I think this would indicate some pin re-soldering.


----------



## mourip (Yesterday at 8:13 AM)

Isaacc7 said:


> Why is my left channel silent? Sigh, time to start troubleshooting. Oh, the heater isn’t lit on my left TS BGRP. As they’d say on Mythbusters, well there’s your problem right there! No troubleshooting required lol.
> 
> This does bring home something that I joke about from time to time but I am actually serious. Tubes can fail. The good ones keep getting more and more expensive to replace. I’m down one TS BGRP but I have quite a few left in reserve. We can joke about being hoarders but the reality is that you should probably buy what you think you will need for the rest of your life. Even new tubes aren’t guaranteed to be around when you need them. Buy them as you find them and can afford them!


Swap the tubes L to R. If the issue follows the tube then you know it is the tube, not the socket. You could have a cold solder joint in a tube socket connection. If the tube is not lighting up you might still have HV going to it which is bad for the tube so you might not want to spend too much time with the amp powered on and the tube not lit up. Especially with a $$$ TSRP/BGRP!


----------



## Isaacc7

mourip said:


> Swap the tubes L to R. If the issue follows the tube then you know it is the tube, not the socket. You could have a cold solder joint in a tube socket connection. If the tube is not lighting up you might still have HV going to it which is bad for the tube so you might not want to spend too much time with the amp powered on and the tube not lit up. Especially with a $$$ TSRP/BGRP!


Put in another tube and the amp is fine. The Tung Sol is toast. This is a 12sn7 so not quite as dear as the 6v. It’s a good reminder that tubes are consumables, they will die at some point.


----------



## whirlwind

Isaacc7 said:


> Why is my left channel silent? Sigh, time to start troubleshooting. Oh, the heater isn’t lit on my left TS BGRP. As they’d say on Mythbusters, well there’s your problem right there! No troubleshooting required lol.
> 
> This does bring home something that I joke about from time to time but I am actually serious. Tubes can fail. The good ones keep getting more and more expensive to replace. I’m down one TS BGRP but I have quite a few left in reserve. We can joke about being hoarders but the reality is that you should probably buy what you think you will need for the rest of your life. Even new tubes aren’t guaranteed to be around when you need them. Buy them as you find them and can afford them!



Yeah, it happens.    

I am to the point I only use my favorite tubes relaxing in my chair at night and away from the computer.
When I just relax and have nothing on my mind except music.

 Replacements are crazy money for many of these tubes.

My favorite tubes I just made sure I had a few replacements,that measured decent.


----------



## triod750

Isaacc7 said:


> Why is my left channel silent? Sigh, time to start troubleshooting. Oh, the heater isn’t lit on my left TS BGRP. As they’d say on Mythbusters, well there’s your problem right there! No troubleshooting required lol.
> 
> This does bring home something that I joke about from time to time but I am actually serious. Tubes can fail. The good ones keep getting more and more expensive to replace. I’m down one TS BGRP but I have quite a few left in reserve. We can joke about being hoarders but the reality is that you should probably buy what you think you will need for the rest of your life. Even new tubes aren’t guaranteed to be around when you need them. Buy them as you find them and can afford them!


Too late! Why didn't you tell us five years ago?


----------



## Isaacc7

whirlwind said:


> Yeah, it happens.
> 
> I am to the point I only use my favorite tubes relaxing in my chair at night and away from the computer.
> When I just relax and have nothing on my mind except music.
> ...


It helps if you can find favorites that aren’t that expensive and stock up None of my power tubes are all that expensive and many of my input tubes aren’t either.  It helps that I am heater voltage and base flexible. Buuuut….. I do have a few input tubes that are quickly getting to the crazy level. Trying to get my GEC/MOV b36 situation solved before they get even more money. The Tung Sol BGRP 12sn7 can still be found for reasonable prices, at least compared to the 6sn7 version but they are also starting to climb. I love my single triodes but since I need to use 4 at a time in both my preamp and power amp the price can get crazy fast. I’m taking the advice of a certain somebody in this thread and looking into using triode wired pentodes for input duties to see if I can find some bargins.


----------



## Isaacc7

JTbbb said:


> I take it that whilst the amplifier was on you gently wiggled the tube around? I’ve done this and the heater started glowing and along came the music. I think this would indicate some pin re-soldering.


I did not do that. This tube came from a lot of used and untested BGRP 12sn7. Most were very low and several didn‘t light up. This one and two others measured ok but the other 12-13 didn’t look so good. Maybe some resoldering could fix them. I’m not all that interested in messing around with that though. I have plenty of good ones in reserve. Haven’t had the will to recycle them yet, I’ll get around to it one of these days. I do try to get these recycled at an electronics recycling center instead of throwing them out. Tubes were made with all sorts of nasty stuff like leaded glass, barium, thorium, and other metals.


----------



## Galapac

Fun fact, Barium is used in fireworks to make the green color. Think about that next time you face is pointed up to the sky watching the pretty colors.


----------



## keenerz

does anyone use anything specific to have as a stand/rack for standing the tubes straight up like on a shelf or on my desk?


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> Fun fact, Barium is used in fireworks to make the green color. Think about that next time you face is pointed up to the sky watching the pretty colors.


At least the crowd doesn’t get peppered by Philips ECG tube shards….🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

Galapac said:


> Fun fact, Barium is used in fireworks to make the green color. Think about that next time you face is pointed up to the sky watching the pretty colors.



Not so fun fact… barium is also used in an enema for x-raying your lower intestinal tract.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Not so fun fact… barium is also used in an enema for x-raying your lower intestinal tract.


…. flashing element in a ‘rectumfier’…. 😳


----------



## Galapac (Yesterday at 9:30 PM)

keenerz said:


> does anyone use anything specific to have as a stand/rack for standing the tubes straight up like on a shelf or on my desk?


I have used these before, test tube racks. They work well and are a bit flexible.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274324906675


----------



## Isaacc7

So I finally got around to trying those Miniwatt branded Fivre made b36. Have them paired up with 5b/254m outputs. Sounds amazing right off the bat, solid, rich, slightly warm, timbarrally lush. 

Checked Langrex and they only have 5 left. Because of FOMO I bought 2 pairs. YOLO right? Following my own advice lol.  Fingers crossed I’ll place another order with them, but maybe next month lol. Or maybe not…


----------



## LobalWarming

Isaacc7 said:


> So I finally got around to trying those Miniwatt branded Fivre made b36. Have them paired up with 5b/254m outputs. Sounds amazing right off the bat, solid, rich, slightly warm, timbarrally lush.
> 
> Checked Langrex and they only have 5 left. Because of FOMO I bought 2 pairs. YOLO right? Following my own advice lol.  Fingers crossed I’ll place another order with them, but maybe next month lol. Or maybe not…


Wonderful tubes. Have a pair of Fivre-branded Fivre B36/12SN7. Very sweet and clean in my machines. Superb palette cleanser for my filthy ears.


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## LoryWiv

whirlwind said:


> These work great and you can store the tubes upright


What is the advantage to upright storage?


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## LobalWarming

LoryWiv said:


> What is the advantage to upright storage?


Allegedly it's to keep the weak plates and filaments from sagging due to gravity and age. I know what that's like.

However, millions and millions of tubes have been stored horizontally for decades and decades without harm. And many some of those have gone on to lead a glamorous life as precious museum-quality holy grail artifacts.


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## whirlwind

LoryWiv said:


> What is the advantage to upright storage?


As already mentioned, some would say the filaments may sag over time due to gravity.


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