# Pico - USB DAC/Amplifier From HeadAmp



## elnero

I have to admit I wasn't all that fired up about Justin's upcoming offering when I first heard about it, other than his stellar build quality I just didn't quite get what was going to separate it from the other offerings on the market. Ok, yeah, I knew it was supposed to be a higher quality DAC than what we've seen implemented in these types of combo units before and at a size that is previously unheard of but I still wasn't getting all hot and bothered. OK, OK, that's probably due to the fact that I've been looking for a DAC with more input options not a USB only DAC. 

 Even though it doesn't quite match the feature set I've been looking for ever since I first heard about it the Pico has remained on the periphery of my list of possibles, that is until I started reading some of the recent meet threads, namely the NorCal Regional and Boston meet threads. With comments like these Quote:


 the Pico is the new gold standard all portable amp should be judged by and additionally has taken portable headphone amps to a level I've never imagined possible. The Pico is the most state of the art portable I've seen and an absolute engineering marvel 
 

 Quote:


 Justin's Pico was a big win for me... the DAC section of that thing was just unbelievable. 
 

 Quote:


 Very articulate and definitely comparable to some of the bigger set ups out there. The preciseness and imaging were phenomenal for something so small. 
 

 Quote:


 The new Headamp "Pico" DAC/amp was the item of most interest to me, since learning that Justin had managed to cram an upsampling DAC with a flagship D/A chip and USB to I2S all into a pocket-sized amp. Given what he has done in the past, I expected it to sound good, yet I was still surprised when a couple of tiny boards pumped headphones full of great sound in a manner consistent with (if not better than) my much larger Apogee Mini-DAC. The bass control was much better than I expected from a portable amp, and the DAC was quite impressive with a detailed, yet smooth and unfatiguing sound. I can't wait to hear some more from this little wonder. Thanks to AMB we were able to do some comparative RMAA testing of the Pico and Mini-DAC, and found the Pico performed significantly better in nearly every measurement. 
 

I have to admit the Pico is starting to get me hot and bothered. I knew it was supposed to be better than most if not all the other USB DAC/Amp offerings on the market I just didn't realize it was supposed to be _this_ good. In fact it's got me rethinking my priorities now, if the Pico can truly approach the league that has been suggested by some of these comments at approximately the size of a Tomahawk and a $500 price tag with DAC ($300 amp only) then I'm prepared to sacrifice a level of versatility and limit myself to a computer when using the DAC. 

 So who else is excited about this upcoming USB DAC/Amp from HeadAmp?


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## antonyfirst

I'm very interested in this DAC/amp. It would be even better if it had an optical line-in.


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## n_maher

I spent some time with it at the Boston meet last weekend, it's definitely worth getting excited about.


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## antonyfirst

n_maher: did you try to drive your K340 or ER4P with the Pico?


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## n_maher

No, I was using HD650s. I don't think it's fair to ask any portable to drive the 340s since most home amps have issues unless specifically configured for them. I mean I'm sure it'll make them sound ok, but probably not drive them properly. It handled the 650s with ease though.


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## vcoheda

i'm pretty interested in one.


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## antonyfirst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I was using HD650s. I don't think it's fair to ask any portable to drive the 340s since most home amps have issues unless specifically configured for them. I mean I'm sure it'll make them sound ok, but probably not drive them properly. It handled the 650s with ease though._

 

Thanks. I was asking, since it seems that the Xin Reference is able to drive the K340 better than a Darkvoice 336.


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## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *antonyfirst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. I was asking, since it seems that the Xin Reference is able to drive the K340 better than a Darkvoice 336._

 

I would suggest that while that may be one person's opinion the engineering behind that would argue a very different outcome. Given that my PPA running a 30V PS and a gain of 11 had a hard time driving them my experience tells me that no portable is going to be able to have the combination of current and voltage output necessary to make those cans sound their best (to my ears, or course). IMHO, YMMV, etc., etc.


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## Blueiz

My table at the NorCal meet was right next to Justin's and I had a chance to listen to the Pico over and over.... it is a WONDER! Justin "promised" I could buy myself a Christmas present.


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## MrSlacker

I got a chance to listen to this amp/DAC a lot at the last MA/VA meet when Justin showed it off for the first time. I was absolutely blown away. Do not let the small size throw you off track. If Justin would put it in a huge case, you will think that inside, there is a huge amp/dac and will never be able to tell how small it actually is. I am eagerly waiting for it to probably replace all of my gear.


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## apnk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrSlacker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got a chance to listen to this amp/DAC a lot at the last MA/VA meet when Justin showed it off for the first time. I was absolutely blown away. Do not let the small size throw you off track. If Justin would put it in a huge case, you will think that inside, there is a huge amp/dac and will never be able to tell how small it actually is. I am eagerly waiting for it to probably replace all of my gear._

 


 So how big is it?


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## 909

similar in size to the RS Audio Tomahawk but the Pico drives nearly every full size headphone and IEMs plus the optional DAC--it sounds superb and incredibly tiny.


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## Icarium

Size of a tomahawk? No it is significantly smaller. It's not like half the size and obviously we havent seen it with a chassis. But I think 20 percent smaller isn't outside of the realm of possibility for a rough estimate (Maybe more, maybe slightly less). It is fricken tiny.


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## MrSlacker

Please do not quote me on this, but I believe Justin said it is 45% smaller than AE-2 and same or smaller size as the Tomahawk. However, unlike Tomahawk, it also has a USB DAC and runs any headphones with ease (someone should send Justin K340 for testing lol)


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## 909

I asked Justin and the size is approximately the same.


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## vcoheda

if this thing does as advertised - small, drives all headphones, built in dac, great sound (this is the crucial factor) -, it's going to be a killer item.


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## granodemostasa

considering it out did a pro-dac on tests, it should be the best out there.

  Quote:


 Upsampling design!
 - Uses a flagship level 24-bit/192KHz digital-to-analog converter chip!
 - Extremely low distortion analog filter
 - Protects USB ports from over-current
 - Extreme care in keeping noise to a minimum, separate power supplies for each stage
 - 4-layer circuit board for optimum digital layout
 - Separate analog input to use as headphone amp only
 - Gain switch (toggle) on front panel
 - Alps volume control w/ built-in power switch
 - Lithium-polymer battery (estimated 35 hours, or 70 hours w/ extended battery option)
 - Built-in battery charger w/ charge status LED on front panel (2-4 hour charge time depending on battery option)
 - Back panel has the USB jack (Mini-B) and DC adapter jack


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## Asr

Forget the Tomahawk reference, it looked like nearly the size of Xin's SuperMini. In other words, insanely small. And knowing HeadAmp, it'll probably come in a better chassis than the SuperMini. (Not a fan of the plastic case that Xin uses for it.)


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## DaNuS

Time to start saving.... This sounds very promising!


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## Blueiz

Justin mentioned that the cases will be like the ones used for the AE-2 (just smaller!).... IIRC. I got the impression that the cases are being specially made just to fit the Pico.


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## Assorted

Oh my, I don't even know what to save for anymore.


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## WittyzTH

sounds interesting.. esp. about that tiny side.


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## epaludo

Does anyone knows what powers this little baby? 9V?
 How long does it lasts ... ?


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## Asr

Lithium-ion cell, should be about 20 hours or so - that's what Justin said.


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## epaludo

That's pretty good for a DAC+amp combo. If not asking to much, any idea how long to recharge ... ?


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## kugino

well, this might replace my "poor man's microstack"...what's the ETA for this amp? i've been waiting forever for the new modules for the GS-1, too, but i guess justin's had other priorities...


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## GreatDane

I'm _very_ interested in this amp.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ([size=xx-small]poor wallet[/size])

 I did have a quick listen at the DC meet but I think I'll need to listen in home to be sure


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## antonyfirst

Don't quote me on this, but I have been told that this amp is able to add "tube" distortion like high end Headamp (without being tube) or Singlepower amps. It isn't a warm amp, like Xin's, but it should retain this ability.

 Also, I've written to Justin about an optical line in:

_Tony,

 No, there is no optical input. To have an optical input, it would have

 to be larger to add a SPDIF receiver. Also, when using the optical,
 the 
 DAC would have to run completely on battery power. With a DAC like 
 this, that would drain the battery in only about 3 hours. So, while I 
 may make a larger version that also has an optical input (at least a 
 year away), it will need to be quite a bit larger to fit a larger 
 battery. I'm only interested in sound quality and not 200+ hour
 battery 
 life, but I would still like the battery life to be at least 20 hours.

 Thanks,
 Justin_


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## enjoiflobees

I can't wait to buy this dac. When i went the boston meet nothing really excited me this much because once I hear the price tag I lower my head a walk away. But this little thing REALY excited me and made me smile even more once I heard the approximate price was 500. I mean I use my iMod 90% of the time. but when I am in my room and just want to listen to something out of some speakers or even my little Dot lll I always have to either drain my ipod battery by using that or I take it easy on my ipod and use the headphone out of my computer. Now my computer can be a source just as good as my iMod and ideally better due to it using a better dac chip in it. So I am super excited. SANTA!!! HELP!!


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## bonkon

Anybody heard or know about this poor man's Pico from Leckerton Audio. First time I heard about them and no results in search either, so I assume they are really new. Someone started a thread a few days back but no much interest there. I mean looking at the specs it is impressive compared to the similarly priced Total Bithead. Better casing, size, rechargeable batteries/circuit and DAC chips, I just hope the sound is on par. 

 Is someone getting first dibs and write impressions? Man it is just too sad, I am still too poor for a poor man's Pico 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well at least for buying on the blind.


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## yuheng

noob question here?how much for it?


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## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yuheng* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_noob question here?how much for it?_

 

The Pico amp only is expected to be about $300, with the DAC option $500


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## DaNuS

Is there an ETA on it?


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## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DaNuS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there an ETA on it?_

 

I know this is kind of broad but Fall 2007 is what I've heard.


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## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, this might replace my "poor man's microstack"...what's the ETA for this amp?_

 

I asked Justin this at the meet and he was appropriately vague, "a month or so". He had just gotten the extrusions for the enclosures so it's pretty much ready to go live as soon as he's done the final fit up and testing. 
  Quote:


 i've been waiting forever for the new modules for the GS-1, too, but i guess justin's had other priorities... 
 

I think he's having parts problems, as in a manufacturer has not released a part that they said they would. Completely out of his control and in no way priority related.


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## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked Justin this at the meet and he was appropriately vague, "a month or so". He had just gotten the extrusions for the enclosures so it's pretty much ready to go live as soon as he's done the final fit up and testing. 
 I think he's having parts problems, as in a manufacturer has not released a part that they said they would. Completely out of his control and in no way priority related._

 

thanks!


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## narkeeso

I'm very excited for this dac/amp combo. I've been searching for 2 months for a combo that would be right for me. Had I not run into Head-Fi I would have never known about the Pico early on. I own Justin's GLite DPS combo and love it. I am happily awaiting for this amp to be done.


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## cooperpwc

Quote:


 So, while I may make a larger version that also has an optical input (at least a year away), it will need to be quite a bit larger to fit a larger 
 battery. I'm only interested in sound quality and not 200+ hour
 battery life, but I would still like the battery life to be at least 20 hours. 
 

Please Sir. I will hold my breath for a year waiting for this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Other H1xx owners who will jump all over such a high end DAC plus amp offering with optical in, please raise your voices too.


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cooperpwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please Sir. I will hold my breath for a year waiting for this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Other H1xx owners who will jump all over such a high end DAC plus amp offering with optical in, please raise your voices too._

 

Anyone that uses a notebook all day may also jump on this. It is a killer unit for notebook use.


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## fierce_freak

I heard this at the MD/VA meet. It's definitely a winner, to my ears. If I hadn't dedicated all my funds to a good home system, I'd be all over this (and still I'm tempted).


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## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone that uses a *computer* all day may also jump on this. It is a killer unit for *computer* use._

 

Fixed it for you.


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fixed it for you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I guess that works as well but at my computer at home I am using a Lavry DA10 and my microZOTL and/or will be using my Yamamoto HA-02 instead.


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## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess that works as well but at my computer at home I am using a Lavry DA10 and my microZOTL and/or will be using my Yamamoto HA-02 instead._

 

Ah, I see what you mean. Indeed, it's more for the road warrior than for stationary long-term setups. But a great addition for any computer setup regardless.


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah, I see what you mean. Indeed, it's more for the road warrior than for stationary long-term setups. But a great addition for any computer setup regardless. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I absolutely agree on this one.


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## cooperpwc

Actually if you are using it with a computer, including a notebook, the soon to be released Pico sounds perfect already - USB is all you need. It's those with iRiver H1xx DAPs or portable CD players with optical outs that need the optical in. I hope that we eventually see such a model...


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## Icarium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cooperpwc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please Sir. I will hold my breath for a year waiting for this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Other H1xx owners who will jump all over such a high end DAC plus amp offering with optical in, please raise your voices too._

 

He already said he's doing one. Won't be too long.


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## edwardsean

Hi, 

 Right now I'm running a Microdac/ Move combination, which I love. But it's a lot of battery replacement and just a bit of setting up and tearing down. It's worth it far and away. But, the idea of having just one tiny unit is really attractive. My question is that so far the raves all gravitate to the DAC side, how is the amp side of things? Would it be able to go up against a Move, Hornet, Xin offering? Also, I'm sure it could take an analog in to use the amp alone. Can it also line out from the DAC to a different amp to be used only as a stand alone DAC? Thanks. Can't wait.


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edwardsean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, 

 Would it be able to go up against a Move, Hornet, Xin offering? Also, I'm sure it could take an analog in to use the amp alone. Can it also line out from the DAC to a different amp to be used only as a stand alone DAC? Thanks. Can't wait._

 

Yes....indeed and I believe on both counts. I may be wrong on the line out but if I remember correctly during the DC area meet this is what I understood. It may have changed since. The line out thing is something that Justin believes in since he has had it with the AE-1/2 series. Justin said the design on the amp is completely new and different from the AE series. I also think he is using the I2S interface on the DAC chip instead of the second conversion to SPDIF like on most DACs. This should make the sound much better and high end. It sounded high end when I heard it anyway and I have a Xin Reference/iMod 5g combination that I thought it could compete with very well based on the short impressions that I took away.

 Picture from DC area meet:






 Picture from one of the latest meets:






 They both have two mini plugs so line out is still a possibility. This wire is now gone from the first unit above.


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## Iron_Dreamer

I'm definitely very excited about this little jewel. My only concern is about feeding my powered speakers from it, but I think I might just fall back on my soundcard for that, since the speakers aren't that great (and I don't use them that much) anyway.

 I was very impressed by the sound (not that my comments haven't already been put in the original post). ~$1000 DAC sound in a miniature unit half the cost (with a better headphone amp to boot!), what's not to love. Throw in Headamp build quality, and as the late Phil Rizzuto would say "HOOOOOOLY COW!"

 Unless one needs more inputs/outputs, etc. the Pico renders most computer based systems using DAC's under $2500 fairly moot. And you get a portable amp as a bonus.


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm definitely very excited about this little jewel. My only concern is about feeding my powered speakers from it, but I think I might just fall back on my soundcard for that, since the speakers aren't that great (and I don't use them that much) anyway.

 I was very impressed by the sound (not that my comments haven't already been put in the original post). ~$1000 DAC sound in a miniature unit half the cost (with a better headphone amp to boot!), what's not to love. Throw in Headamp build quality, and as the late Phil Rizzuto would say "HOOOOOOLY COW!"

 Unless one needs more inputs/outputs, etc. the Pico renders most computer based systems using DAC's under $2500 fairly moot. And you get a portable amp as a bonus._

 

Yea, you gotta love it in concept. Now we have to hear it at home for a few hours.


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## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edwardsean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...how is the amp side of things? Would it be able to go up against a Move, Hornet, Xin offering?_

 

any portable amp is limited due to size constraints and power/voltage, but in comparison to ever other portable amp i've heard the Pico is the most revealing, balanced, dynamic and natural. obviously the DAC is a pretty special offering, but it wouldn't shine so very bright unless the amp provided superb amplification that allowed it to do so and exceedingly well.


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## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *antonyfirst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, I've written to Justin about an optical line in:

Tony,

 No, there is no optical input. To have an optical input, it would have

 to be larger to add a SPDIF receiver. Also, when using the optical,
 the 
 DAC would have to run completely on battery power. With a DAC like 
 this, that would drain the battery in only about 3 hours. So, while I 
 may make a larger version that also has an optical input (at least a 
 year away), it will need to be quite a bit larger to fit a larger 
 battery. I'm only interested in sound quality and not 200+ hour
 battery 
 life, but I would still like the battery life to be at least 20 hours.

 Thanks,
 Justin_

 

Ah, so the DAC is powered purely, or mainly by the 5V USB power, and the rest of the headphone amp section powered mainly or purely by the battery? 

*I guess that pretty much puts the "I want an Optical/SPDIF input demand to bed.* If you want one, you'll have to get a lesser quality DAC or a measly 3 hour battery life, or a humongous battery. I think overall, the HeadAmp Pico has an excellent solution here.

 So it's kind of "cheating" to get it's 20 hour battery life. 20 hours as a headphone amp, but must be paired with a powered USB connection for DAC use. *But really, if you look at it, it's like getting power for the DAC for "free". *

 I could pretty much say bye bye to my iRiver and go with an Ultramobile PC based rig for portable use. I already have a small Tablet PC (a Fujitsu P1610) that I usually carry with me everywhere. It has a 5-6 hour battery life, so I imagine the Pico won't be leeching too much power to affect that. I could have a full Foobar portable rig, just not very easily able to listen while walking around, unless I got the Bump case for my P1610.






 Could carry it in a bump case like this one. LOL.





 -Ed


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## Edwood

You know, there are a lot of Ultra Mobile PC's (UMPC) coming out at more and more affordable prices. They cover the gap between hand held PDA's and ultraportable laptops.

 There will be a lot of excellent ones available in the sub $500 range soon. And they run full Windows as well. WIth it's USB ports, it will be the ultimate portable rig paired with the Pico.





 If you have a lot of money right now, you could get an OQO 2, and pair that with the Pico, for the ultimate in tiny size.




 -Ed


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## MrJingles

Holy God, I was just thinking of purchasing a Tomahawk, but this sounds like it's worth waiting for. Does anybody have a direct link with Justin to check ETA every so often? Do you think we will be able to pre-order and is he planning on manufacturing enough so there won't be a significant wait time like Xin or LaRocco?


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## antonyfirst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know, there are a lot of Ultra Mobile PC's (UMPC) coming out at more and more affordable prices. They cover the gap between hand held PDA's and ultraportable laptops.

 There will be a lot of excellent ones available in the sub $500 range soon. And they run full Windows as well. WIth it's USB ports, it will be the ultimate portable rig paired with the Pico.

 If you have a lot of money right now, you could get an OQO 2, and pair that with the Pico, for the ultimate in tiny size.
 -Ed_

 

Good idea, but how much would battery last, this way?
 Such handhelds have very small batteries, I think.


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## kramer5150

I'm kicking myself for not demo-ing Justins prototype at the SJ meet
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 I never really considered a laptop PC as a "serious" source. However as the meet progressed things changed.
 I came away from this meet seriously wanting up update my laptop PC as source setup. HF1 straight out of the headphone jack isn't cutting it anymore
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . There were a lot of really good sounding laptop PC setups, but unfortunately most used very high end DACs (Apogee, DA-10 are 2 off the top of my head).

 The Pico-DAC really helps to bridge that gap for most of the semi-cost conscious. For me desktop real estate is at a premium and trans-portability is needed too and from the office. So the idea of an Alien DAC / mini-stack is certainly do-able but not really preferred.


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## epaludo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah, so the DAC is powered purely, or mainly by the 5V USB power, and the rest of the headphone amp section powered mainly or purely by the battery? 

*I guess that pretty much puts the "I want an Optical/SPDIF input demand to bed.* If you want one, you'll have to get a lesser quality DAC or a measly 3 hour battery life, or a humongous battery. I think overall, the HeadAmp Pico has an excellent solution here.

 So it's kind of "cheating" to get it's 20 hour battery life. 20 hours as a headphone amp, but must be paired with a powered USB connection for DAC use. *But really, if you look at it, it's like getting power for the DAC for "free". *_

 

This USB power solution for the DAC part seems brilliant.
 How much battery it'll need from the USB port?
 Just wondering if it'll significantly decrese for example a laptop battery life. I don't think it must be significant though ...


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## The_Duke_Of_Eli

Any word on pricing? With such incredible sound quality, and seeing how he's probably been working on this since the AE-2 has been released, it may come at a premium...


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## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The_Duke_Of_Eli* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any word on pricing? With such incredible sound quality, and seeing how he's probably been working on this since the AE-2 has been released, it may come at a premium..._

 

There are about 5 posts in this very thread stating the price. Amp alone is $300 and Amp+DAC is $500.

 I do not see why this cannot be used for a desktop computer. If it is small, it doesnt mean it sounds worse than big amp/dacs. I am planning on using it with my desktop.


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## rhymesgalore

The faithfull one who reads the whole thread carefully may find the truth hidden deep within.....


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Pico amp only is expected to be about $300, with the DAC option $500_


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## MaloS

Justin accepts preorders I believe, ETA given to me was October.


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## MrJingles

Do you all think I should wait for the Pico instead of going for the Tomahawk? This amp sounds like the total package...DAC/amp combo and portability.
 October is only a month away.


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## PFKMan23

If you're willing to wait, then yes I would.


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## MrJingles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PFKMan23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're willing to wait, then yes I would._

 

I think you are right sir. I'm going to email Justin to see if I can get on the pre-order list. I hope I'm making the right decision being that the Tomahawk is very proven while some members have only heard the beta...be it incredible.


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## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrJingles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you are right sir. I'm going to email Justin to see if I can get on the pre-order list. I hope I'm making the right decision being that the Tomahawk is very proven while some members have only heard the beta...be it incredible._

 

If you will be using your computer as a source, Pico will be much better than Tomahawk. However, you'll have to be patient. Justin is a perfectionist, he will not ship anything until it is absolutely perfect. Judging by what I heard at the meet, you will not be disappointed.


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## MrJingles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrSlacker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you will be using your computer as a source, Pico will be much better than Tomahawk. However, you'll have to be patient. Justin is a perfectionist, he will not ship anything until it is absolutely perfect. Judging by what I heard at the meet, you will not be disappointed._

 

I will probably never use it with my computer, just my iMod. Knowing that, do you still think I should wait or will it matter since I'm probably not going to use the DAC very often?


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrJingles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will probably never use it with my computer, just my iMod. Knowing that, do you still think I should wait or will it matter since I'm probably not going to use the DAC very often?_

 

If you will never use the DAC, purchase the amp only version.


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## MrJingles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you will never use the DAC, purchase the amp only version._

 

True enough, but if I'm going to spend $300, what's another $200 for an incredible DAC in case I decide to use it.
 I will wait. I sent an email to Justin to see if we can pre-order now.
 Thanks folks!


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## MrJingles

Well boys and girls, MrJingles has just put himself on the pre-order list for 1 very special Pico DAC/Amp combo through Justin at Headamp. 
 Here is his email response:

"Joe, 

 Yes, I am taking pre-orders. No payment of any kind is necessary, just let me know if you'd like me to add you to the list and I'll contact you when they're close to being ready. I don't have a definite date. Right now I am getting the enclosures produced which is a 2-3 month process. Most likely it will be November. 

 Thanks, 
 Justin"

That, my audio friends, is what causes MrJingles to do The Happy Dance (imagine a mouse doing "Happy Feet").


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## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrJingles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you think we will be able to pre-order and is he planning on manufacturing enough so there won't be a significant wait time like Xin or LaRocco?_

 

While HeadAmp products do tend to have a built-in wait time, it's much more tolerable than Xin or LaRocco, shouldn't need to worry about that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And HeadAmp is much more communicative than either of those two as well.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *epaludo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This USB power solution for the DAC part seems brilliant.
 How much battery it'll need from the USB port?
 Just wondering if it'll significantly decrese for example a laptop battery life. I don't think it must be significant though ..._

 

Given that USB spec is usually a maximum of 500ma, and the Pico's USB audio device draws only a fraction of that, I'd guess it would be pretty negligible, depending on how much battery life your laptop has to begin with. 

 My Fujitsu P1610 can have up to 6 hours of battery life if I'm just listening to music, screen dimmed, and wireless turned off. About 5 hours with average use. Down to 4 hours with everything turned on, surfing wirelessly, with my phone leeching power and running as a modem.

 -Ed


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Fujitsu P1610 can have up to 6 hours of battery life if I'm just listening to music, screen dimmed, and wireless turned off. About 5 hours with average use. Down to 4 hours with everything turned on, surfing wirelessly, with my phone leeching power and running as a modem._

 

I loved that little guy. How much HD space in there? Considering the batter and size of the Mini-DAC, the P1610+Pico seems like a better solution than iHP-120+DAC (unless there is another, smaller DAC than the Mini-DAC, which sounds better, has better battery life, and accepts optical; I doubt it.)


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I loved that little guy. How much HD space in there? Considering the batter and size of the Mini-DAC, the P1610+Pico seems like a better solution than iHP-120+DAC (unless there is another, smaller DAC than the Mini-DAC, which sounds better, has better battery life, and accepts optical; I doubt it.)_

 

I'm curious, what kind of battery are you using for your mini-DAC?


----------



## darkless

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I loved that little guy. How much HD space in there? Considering the batter and size of the Mini-DAC, the P1610+Pico seems like a better solution than iHP-120+DAC (unless there is another, smaller DAC than the Mini-DAC, which sounds better, has better battery life, and accepts optical; I doubt it.)_

 

Well, considering that the P1610 alone costs about $2000, it's a really expensive semi-portable solution compared to an H1x0 plus Pico (assuming one will eventually be made with optical out).


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm curious, what kind of battery are you using for your mini-DAC?_

 

I'm not, but I've seen it done with SLA batteries, and apparently there was also a portable DVD player battery from Ratshack that would do the trick.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *darkless* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, considering that the P1610 alone costs about $2000, it's a really expensive semi-portable solution compared to an H1x0 plus Pico (assuming one will eventually be made with optical out)._

 

Yeah, but I didn't say anything about value 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Considering that Ed already has the Fujitsu, I was thinking more of his particular situation than in general.


----------



## akwok

This looks perfect for me as an all-in-one solution for my HD650s (it has been mentioned to be able to drive the HD650s very well). I currently have nothing to run my HD650s since I sold my Lavry, and was about to get a Zhaolu for a simple route, but I might as well wait for this!

 I await with anticipation and look forward to being hopefully one of the first to purchase one.


----------



## J-Pak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *akwok* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This looks perfect for me as an all-in-one solution for my HD650s (it has been mentioned to be able to drive the HD650s very well). I currently have nothing to run my HD650s since I sold my Lavry, and was about to get a Zhaolu for a simple route, but I might as well wait for this!

 I await with anticipation and look forward to being hopefully one of the first to purchase one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Looking forward to your overly enthusiastic review, followed by the purging


----------



## lmfboy01

hi,
 sorry if this question was answered before but what is the status of having an optical out on this amp/dac combo? i mean sizewise with an usb/optical/amp, this would have to be the bestest thing out their in terms of portability. a must for h1** users! is the dac better than the D1, move, headroom? if so, i would'nt see how much of a difference adding in a optical out would be...


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmfboy01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi,
 sorry if this question was answered before but what is the status of having an optical out on this amp/dac combo? i mean sizewise with an usb/optical/amp, this would have to be the bestest thing out their in terms of portability. a must for h1** users! is the dac better than the D1, move, headroom? if so, i would'nt see how much of a difference adding in a optical out would be..._

 


 Not going to happen in this size. Justin said he may look into it in a year or so but it would be in a bigger enclosure than the Pico.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lmfboy01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi,
 sorry if this question was answered before but what is the status of having an optical out on this amp/dac combo? i mean sizewise with an usb/optical/amp, this would have to be the bestest thing out their in terms of portability. a must for h1** users! is the dac better than the D1, move, headroom? if so, i would'nt see how much of a difference adding in a optical out would be..._

 

I'm going to make some assumptions here, I'm guessing the overall design goal was to offer an ultra-portable DAC/Amp combo with unheard of quality at its size and price point, I mean we're talking a DAC/Amp combo here that's the approximate size of a Tomahawk with quality approaching and even possibly surpassing the likes of an Apogee Mini-DAC. It's meant to play in a different league than the other USB DAC/Amp combo's that we've seen thus far. 

 In order to achieve these goals I assume Justin had to make some design decisions, the DAC itself is powered via USB not battery so in order to add in an optical or coax output a bigger battery would have to be employed to achieve acceptable battery life. A bigger battery as well as more input and output options means a larger enclosure. 

 As has been mentioned a larger version with more versatile input/output options may be on the horizon but it will take some time to see the light of day. I would think whether or not this happens will be partially determined by demand as well as the success of the Pico. For myself, the larger more versatile version would be the ultimate but the Pico will do in the meantime.


----------



## MrSlacker

Another thing to remember about adding Optical input. Only iRiver H1X0 has an optical out. These are old players that are slowly dying (still love mine) and there is nothing else that has optical out. So if Justin released a version with optical out, very limited amount of people would be able to use it. Yes Mac products and optical out, but they also have USB so its not a big deal IMHO.
 You guys gotta think about work that goes into making these things... sometimes it is just not worth it. However, a nice home DAC with all kinds of inputs and outputs would be sweet so may be Justin will release something like that instead of portable DAC with optical in.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrSlacker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another thing to remember about adding Optical input. Only iRiver H1X0 has an optical out. These are old players that are slowly dying (still love mine) and there is nothing else that has optical out. So if Justin released a version with optical out, very limited amount of people would be able to use it. Yes Mac products and optical out, but they also have USB so its not a big deal IMHO.
 You guys gotta think about work that goes into making these things... sometimes it is just not worth it. However, a nice home DAC with all kinds of inputs and outputs would be sweet so may be Justin will release something like that instead of portable DAC with optical in._

 

I wouldn't say there is _nothing_ else beyond the iRiver's with optical, plenty of PCDP's have had optical outputs and there are various other portable or semi-portable solutions such as the Roland R-09 with optical out. I'm also hoping to see a resurgence of digital outputs offered on portable gear but that may just be a dream.

 Also consider though that if the quality of the Pico is even close to what has been reported so far there will be people like myself who would use a larger, more versatile version as not only a portable DAC/Amp but as a home DAC/Amp in a speaker setup as well. My computer is in the same room so at this point it wouldn't be a big deal to use the Pico with my computer for headphone use but I'd definately pay a bit more and sacrifice a bit on size to have something that, in addition to portable use, I could use in my speaker rig as well.

 In the end I think people generally have different uses, requirements and budgets. As an example, where you might look at a larger version as unnecessary it excites the heck out of me because I really can't afford multiple setups. Don't get me wrong though I definitely think the ultra-portable Pico is the right product for Justin to introduce at this point in time but complementing it with a larger, more versatile version and maybe even a standalone portable DAC with multiple input/output options as well would round out the offerings for a nice line of portable gear that would suit just about any headphone geeks needs. Like you I do think a home DAC would be a nice addition to his lineup as well, in fact I mentioned this to him back when I had my GS-1. I'm not a designer but I suspect that the Pico would lay much of the ground work for the other portables suggested whereas I suspect if Justin were to do a home DAC it would be much more of a from the ground up design.

 Alas this thread was not meant to talk about those possibilities though, we're here to talk about and drool over the Pico.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I loved that little guy. How much HD space in there? Considering the batter and size of the Mini-DAC, the P1610+Pico seems like a better solution than iHP-120+DAC (unless there is another, smaller DAC than the Mini-DAC, which sounds better, has better battery life, and accepts optical; I doubt it.)_

 

I have a 60GB 1.8" HDD in there. So not a huge drive. I guess you could fit the 80GB Toshiba in the iHP-140. So if you were ever tempted to do so, you should get that drive ASAP, as it has been discontinued, and it's replacement is a ZIF connection only.

 If I didn't already have the P1610, I'd look into getting a cheaper UMPC, one with a 2.5" HDD possibly to be able to shoehorn the largest capacity possible in a small form factor.

 -Ed


----------



## kramer5150

Curious....
 Is the Pico amplifier section a 3-channel design (L/R/G)?


----------



## granodemostasa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kramer5150* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Curious....
 Is the Pico amplifier section a 3-channel design (L/R/G)?_

 

no, it is not.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *granodemostasa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no, it is not._

 

What kind is it?


----------



## jdimitri

On the pre-order list.. Pretty exciting

 The move is good, but it's just too big..


----------



## mistahan

I purchased HippoHifi Bloat with full upgrades, I'd like to get this and compare the two(the dac/amp version). Before I ask to be on the pre-order list, is it powered by the battery or the usb? I've read the thread, but I'm a little bit confused on what the power source is.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mistahan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I purchased HippoHifi Bloat with full upgrades, I'd like to get this and compare the two(the dac/amp version). Before I ask to be on the pre-order list, is it powered by the battery or the usb? I've read the thread, but I'm a little bit confused on what the power source is._

 

From my understanding the amp is powered by the battery while the DAC is powered via USB.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What kind is it?_

 

I believe that most (if not all) of Justin's designs are 2-channel, passive ground designs.


----------



## mistahan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From my understanding the amp is powered by the battery while the DAC is powered via USB._

 

that's a little confusing, so if the battery runs out, while it's connected via USB, there will be no amplification?


----------



## elnero

That would be my guess.


----------



## mistahan

Are there any USB DAC only that doesn't look so hideous? I mean why can't people make housing look like Headamp style. Simple and clean.


----------



## stevenkelby

Nah, I would think that while connected via USB, it runs off USB power, and charges the internal battery. The battery is only used when not plugged into USB as the DAC isn't working then anyway.

 I could be wrong though.


----------



## mistahan

I'm wondering if there's any way I could get a usb dac only model of Pico?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nah, I would think that while connected via USB, it runs off USB power, and charges the internal battery. The battery is only used when not plugged into USB as the DAC isn't working then anyway.

 I could be wrong though._

 

You are.


----------



## PeterDLai

I can't wait to see how this thing's housing looks. Justin really makes very nice looking products!


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mistahan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that's a little confusing, so if the battery runs out, while it's connected via USB, there will be no amplification?_

 

Yes. In other words, if battery runs out, it will not be able to output anything.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nah, I would think that while connected via USB, it runs off USB power, and charges the internal battery. The battery is only used when not plugged into USB as the DAC isn't working then anyway.

 I could be wrong though._

 

USB does NOT charge the battery.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mistahan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm wondering if there's any way I could get a usb dac only model of Pico?_

 

Not at this time. MAY BE in about a year Justin will release a stand alone DAC.


----------



## MaloS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrSlacker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes. In other words, if battery runs out, it will not be able to output anything.

 USB does NOT charge the battery.

 Not at this time. MAY BE in about a year Justin will release a stand alone DAC._

 

Depending on the design of the amplifier - the DAC signal might still leak through unless attenuated. Not a reliable way to dot things though ^.^

 Few questions I asked Justin personally:
 When another source is connected to line-in, the input from the DAC is muted.
 When I pointed out the convenience of having a line-out function also for home use with bigger amplifiers, Justin said he will consider it.


----------



## MrJingles

I haven't seen anyone mention this, but will the Pico have a gain switch for we who use hot IEM's (E500)? I didn't see it in the pics or anyone mention it.


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrJingles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't seen anyone mention this, but will the Pico have a gain switch for we who use hot IEM's (E500)? I didn't see it in the pics or anyone mention it._

 






 gain switch far left


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_]http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h59/dr973/pico-upclose.jpg[/IMG]

 gain switch far left 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You are 100% correct


----------



## MrJingles

Thank you!


----------



## Drag0n

Oh no, dont blow another amp dream of mine by saying the darn thing doesnt recharge batteries! I dont want to open the darn thing to charge and physically wear it out by constantly opening the thing up!
 I wanted a Move,,,an SR71.......no charging.
 I may end up with that darn Hornet!!!


----------



## Lad27

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm going to make some assumptions here, I'm guessing the overall design goal was to offer an ultra-portable DAC/Amp combo with unheard of quality at its size and price point, I mean we're talking a DAC/Amp combo here that's the approximate size of a Tomahawk with quality approaching and even possibly surpassing the likes of an Apogee Mini-DAC. It's meant to play in a different league than the other USB DAC/Amp combo's that we've seen thus far. 
_

 

Excuse me my almost noob-ish question here:

 What is exactly the point to offer ultra-portable (tomahawk size) *USB DAC*/Amp combo here? I cannot get my head around USB DAC vs optical/coax DAC issue. 
 Why go for ultra small size if only music source feeding USB DAC Pico is laptop?
 Even though they getting smaller, it could still be a book sized ~1kg piece of of gear. Hardly portable in my definition of portable.

 I know that there is only one DAP with optical out there (I have 1 + 1 backup of these), and there are at least 2 dozen of portable CDP's with Toslink around. For owners of these, the super small size of DAC/Amp is paramount. 
 But why pay premium for having a USB DAC/Amp of size smaller then my laptop mouse? I'm sure not going to lug around a laptop walking my dog or ride bike to work, but I can easily chuck DAP/DAC/Amp in my bum-bag and off I go. 

 Anybody here have the same concern, or is is just me not understanding USB DAC and "portable" gear issue?

 elnero, absolutely nothing against your comment, I just quoted you to better illustrate my point.


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Pipe down, it does recharge the battery, after all it's a li-on battery, it just doesn't charge it through USB, but your more conventional wallwart a la the Hornet amongst others.


----------



## Drag0n

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pipe down, it does recharge the battery, after all it's a li-on battery, it just doesn't charge it through USB, but your more conventional wallwart a la the Hornet amongst others._

 


 Whew! There is a God! *Puts Pico back on my wishlist*


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lad27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excuse me my almost noob-ish question here:

 What is exactly the point to offer ultra-portable (tomahawk size) *USB DAC*/Amp combo here? I cannot get my head around USB DAC vs optical/coax DAC issue. 
 Why go for ultra small size if only music source feeding USB DAC Pico is laptop?
 Even though they getting smaller, it could still be a book sized ~1kg piece of of gear. Hardly portable in my definition of portable.

 I know that there is only one DAP with optical out there (I have 1 + 1 backup of these), and there are at least 2 dozen of portable CDP's with Toslink around. For owners of these, the super small size of DAC/Amp is paramount. 
 But why pay premium for having a USB DAC/Amp of size smaller then my laptop mouse? I'm sure not going to lug around a laptop walking my dog or ride bike to work, but I can easily chuck DAP/DAC/Amp in my bum-bag and off I go. 

 Anybody here have the same concern, or is is just me not understanding USB DAC and "portable" gear issue?

 elnero, absolutely nothing against your comment, I just quoted you to better illustrate my point._

 

The appeal is that it can do double duty. It's very small so works well for the people that do want a truly portable amp on the go (DAC portion is an option... remember?). Since it also can have a DAC (and a damn good sounding one) it can make for a smaller footprint on your table tray while in the air, on your desk or just less to carry with that laptop. After all, why carry larger separate pieces of gear if you can get quality SQ from something so portable and versatile?


----------



## 909

probably he didn't know HeadAmp will also offer just an amp version. so the DAC is optional for added convenience and simplicity in one exceedingly tiny and integrated package. The Pico DAC/Amp combo is most likely best suited for those that bring their notebook out and about, don't want to be tethered to their main rig whenever and wherever, or want to use the office computer with it to get audiophile sound.


----------



## kramer5150

NM... got my answer already


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kramer5150* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Curious....
 Is the Pico amplifier section a 3-channel design (L/R/G)?_

 

please share...


----------



## Lad27

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The appeal is that it can do double duty. It's very small so works well for the people that do want a truly portable amp on the go (DAC portion is an option... remember?). Since it also can have a DAC (and a damn good sounding one) it can make for a smaller footprint on your table tray while in the air, on your desk or just less to carry with that laptop. After all, why carry larger separate pieces of gear if you can get quality SQ from something so portable and versatile?_

 

That makes sense. Somehow I didn't realize that in some cases the desk space around computer could be at premium.


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lad27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That makes sense. Somehow I didn't realize that in some cases the desk space around computer could be at premium._

 

Sometimes size doesn't matter. I for one, planning to use Pico as a DAC for my PC. I have plenty of space... Pico DAC just sounds damn good! It doesnt matter if it would size of a matchbox or bigger than a desk... if it sounds good, who cares how small it is?


----------



## milkpowder

Am I the only one here who actually can't believe what he's reading? A $500, MiniDAC-rivalling, super DAC/amp the size of a Tomahawk?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 God help my wallet...

 On a more serious note, won't the Pico be limited to an input sampling rate of 48kHz since it's using USB? It's not really an issue since the DAC apparently upsamples to 24/96 anyway. Also, I wonder if anyone has impressions of using sensitive IEMs with the Pico both as a standalone amp and DAC/amp combo. (ignore if it is covered in meet impressions thread)


----------



## PeterDLai

I've always wanted HeadAmp to release a USB DAC/Amp combo. My wallet never wished for them to.


----------



## enjoiflobees

I really want to see enclosures and colors. I mean it could be the ugliest thing in the world and id still buy it because of how impressed I was with it, but it would be nice to see the product soon so I either cry because it is ugly or be super happy because it is good looking and great sounding.


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *enjoiflobees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really want to see enclosures and colors. I mean it could be the ugliest thing in the world and id still buy it because of how impressed I was with it, but it would be nice to see the product soon so I either cry because it is ugly or be super happy because it is good looking and great sounding._

 

Look at HeadAmp's other products. Justin keeps the same styling for all of his products. He also said that Pico will be in the same enclosure type as AE-2


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *enjoiflobees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really want to see enclosures and colors. I mean it could be the ugliest thing in the world and id still buy it because of how impressed I was with it, but it would be nice to see the product soon so I either cry because it is ugly or be super happy because it is good looking and great sounding._

 

while i wouldn't categorized the headamp enclosure designs as _avant-garde, _they have clean lines with minimalistic simplicity. i'd be happy with this same design philosophy in the pico. i've certainly seen much much worse in the portable amp world


----------



## NewMexiCat

Crap! I was all ready to buy a Tomahawk, and now I read this. Then I start looking at UMPCs for the ultimate portable rig.

 Curse you Head-Fi!


----------



## tyrion

I am looking forward to hearing the PICO at the upcoming Florida meet. I don't know if I would ever go back to a portable rig beyond my nano or iPhone (if I get one) but I am curious to hear how good the DAC is.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkpowder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Am I the only one here who actually can't believe what he's reading? A $500, MiniDAC-rivalling, super DAC/amp the size of a Tomahawk?!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











 God help my wallet...

 On a more serious note, won't the Pico be limited to an input sampling rate of 48kHz since it's using USB? It's not really an issue since the DAC apparently upsamples to 24/96 anyway. Also, I wonder if anyone has impressions of using sensitive IEMs with the Pico both as a standalone amp and DAC/amp combo. (ignore if it is covered in meet impressions thread)_

 

When I listened to it at the Nor Cal meet I used my ES2's (which are uber sensitive) and it was dead quiet as an amp and through the USB/DAC.


----------



## jdimitri

PS. do let us know how it sounds compared to tomahawk/hornet (esp. with ES2, that combo was magical.. wouldn't mind a HD25 thrown into that as well)


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am looking forward to hearing the PICO at the upcoming Florida meet. I don't know if I would ever go back to a portable rig beyond my nano or iPhone (if I get one) but I am curious to hear how good the DAC is._

 

the iphone headphone jack doesn't work with most IEM jacks. it's mentioned in the cnet video review and also call quality is a concern.


----------



## 909

yesterday i went to the apple store for a scheduled appointment with a mac genius afterwards i checked out apple's newest offerings such as the iphone, imac, etc... the iphone, imac and new nano were really cool. 

 the nano is incredibly small and wafer thin--it's an ideal portable. plus the screen, although, tiny provides fairly decent video. later in the evening i checked apple's website for the specs and it sizes up perfectly with the pico.




sizeasy: nano & pico displayed together


----------



## Lad27

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrSlacker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sometimes size doesn't matter. I for one, planning to use Pico as a DAC for my PC. I have plenty of space... Pico DAC just sounds damn good! It doesnt matter if it would size of a matchbox or bigger than a desk... if it sounds good, who cares how small it is?_

 

Agree with you, especially with the last statement. 

 Where I was coming from was that it seems that the optical-in would not be included because of size constraint - and to me it would be more logical to have optical-in rather than USB in for super small DAC/Amp.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lad27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agree with you, especially with the last statement. 

 Where I was coming from was that it seems that the optical-in would not be included because of size constraint - and to me it would be more logical to have optical-in rather than USB in for super small DAC/Amp._

 

There are a few problems with this logic, first if you were to use optical the size of the amp would have to increase significantly because the DAC itself would then have to rely on battery operation, therefore the battery would have to be significantly bigger. Second, I believe there is a much bigger market for people who are looking for portable DAC's to use with a laptop or desktop computer at work than there are those that have a portable source with an S/PDIF output. I don't think Justin made these decisions lightly, I believe he assessed the requests of his customers, what has been written in these forums as well as what has been selling in the marketplace.


----------



## stevenkelby

The Pico sounds perfect for my needs, I wouldn't change a thing about it's intended design. A portable amp for the imod, and a DAC for any PC I use.


----------



## kramer5150

Curious...
 Is there any plan to release just the DAC?
 Might make for a killer little desktop "Stack" with the AE-2.

 ???


----------



## balkanboris

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kramer5150* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Curious...
 Is there any plan to release just the DAC?
 Might make for a killer little desktop "Stack" with the AE-2.

 ???_

 

I'll 2nd that. imod AE-2 for travel and AE-2/pico DAC/laptop for the office.


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kramer5150* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Curious...
 Is there any plan to release just the DAC?
 Might make for a killer little desktop "Stack" with the AE-2.

 ???_

 

Keep asking Justin about that. May be we will be able to convince him to make one!


----------



## jamato8

I do not see how adding the optical in would increase size very much at all. I did this for my Monica II, which was not designed for an optical in but kept all within the constraints of an altoid tin. The current use is very little and it works fine. The optical in requires very little space but you have to have a dac that can use optical.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not see how adding the optical in would increase size very much at all. I did this for my Monica II, which was not designed for an optical in but kept all within the constraints of an altoid tin. The current use is very little and it works fine. The optical in requires very little space but you have to have a dac that can use optical._

 

From my understanding it's because right now the DAC is powered via USB not battery. If you add optical the DAC then needs to be powered via battery which would lower the battery to unacceptable levels which then means a larger battery needs to be used. A larger battery means of course means a larger case. There are also other issues with selection and such which will make the design more complex and again require more room.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not see how adding the optical in would increase size very much at all. I did this for my Monica II, which was not designed for an optical in but kept all within the constraints of an altoid tin. The current use is very little and it works fine. The optical in requires very little space but you h*ave to have a dac that can use optical*._

 

I don't know but I think that's it. The Pico DAC doesn't accept SPDIF, but whatever the format is that comes up the USB cord (I2S?). An optical (SPDIF) input would require a converter inside the Pico to convert the signal from SPDIF into a format the DAC can use. Maybe that's what would take up the space?


----------



## justin w.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not see how adding the optical in would increase size very much at all. I did this for my Monica II, which was not designed for an optical in but kept all within the constraints of an altoid tin. The current use is very little and it works fine. The optical in requires very little space but you have to have a dac that can use optical._

 

To fit an optical connector, a switch to select the digital input, and components for a SPDIF receiver, the length of the Pico would have to be increased by about 20%. But what's more significant is the DAC circuit in the Pico uses about 100mA of current, and the headphone amp 25mA, if all of this ran off the battery w/ the optical input it would only last 4.4 hours! There are low power DAC chips out there, like what is found in MP3 players, those would give a good battery life but I am trying to do something special here and sound quality is most important...otherwise why bother? To keep the 20 hour play time using optical the battery would need to be physically 4 times larger. It would also be difficult to add an optical input and preserve the USB performance, the Pico is unique because it does not convert USB to SPDIF and then to I2S as most if not all multiple-input DACs do. It goes straight to I2S there is no SPDIF conversion


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To fit an optical connector, a switch to select the digital input, and components for a SPDIF receiver, the length of the Pico would have to be increased by about 20%. But what's more significant is the DAC circuit in the Pico uses about 100mA of current, and the headphone amp 25mA, if all of this ran off the battery w/ the optical input it would only last 4.4 hours! There are low power DAC chips out there, like what is found in MP3 players, those would give a good battery life but I am trying to do something special here and sound quality is most important...otherwise why bother? To keep the 20 hour play time using optical the battery would need to be physically 4 times larger. It would also be difficult to add an optical input and preserve the USB performance, the Pico is unique because it does not convert USB to SPDIF and then to I2S as most if not all multiple-input DACs do. It goes straight to I2S there is no SPDIF conversion_

 

thanks for clearing this up, justin. for portable purposes i agree that maximizing battery life while retaining excellent sound quality are of utmost importance.

 while we have you here, do you have an updated timetable for when you will start selling these? thanks...


----------



## koto-in

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the Pico is unique because it does not convert USB to SPDIF and then to I2S as most if not all multiple-input DACs do. It goes straight to I2S there is no SPDIF conversion_

 

Justin, you have made clear the difficulties of adding an optical input to the Pico, but are you saying that the Pico will still have multiple digital inputs, i.e. USB and coax, and that the Pico is unique in its handling of these multiple digital signals, or will the Pico have only USB input like the MOVE, requiring in any case no SPDIF conversion?


----------



## milkpowder

As far as I understand, the Pico is USB input _*only*_, requiring no conversion to S/PDIF, ie USB signal straight to I2S of DAC. I'm no electrical engineer, but I think I can understand that going from USB to S/PDIF to I2S requires an additional receiver chip of some sort. Longer signal path = greater opportunity for signal degradation (eg jitter). Hence going straight to I2S is the best solution. Empirical Audio does something similar too...

 Regarding a multiple digital input amp/dac, have a look at this:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *antonyfirst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, I've written to Justin about an optical line in:

Tony,

 No, there is no optical input. To have an optical input, it would have

 to be larger to add a SPDIF receiver. Also, when using the optical,
 the 
 DAC would have to run completely on battery power. With a DAC like 
 this, that would drain the battery in only about 3 hours. So, while *I 
 may make a larger version that also has an optical input (at least a 
 year away)*, it will need to be quite a bit larger to fit a larger 
 battery. I'm only interested in sound quality and not 200+ hour
 battery 
 life, but I would still like the battery life to be at least 20 hours.

 Thanks,
 Justin_

 

Hope that answers your question.


----------



## fordgtlover

x 3 on interest in just the USB DAC.

 I am after a quality USB DAC without amp and all the bells and whistles. I would never use a DAC for portable so wall power is fine for me.


----------



## stevenkelby

I would have bought one too, previously. Now I would want the amp too but I'm sure there is a market for a simple DAC only. It would just have a plug to put in a mini usb cable, and a 3.5mm female jack. that's it, no switch, no light or anything. It would be cheap too, no need for wall power, wouldn't it run off the USB like the DAC in the Pico?


----------



## koto-in

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkpowder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As far as I understand, the Pico is USB input *only*, requiring no conversion to S/PDIF, ie USB signal straight to I2S of DAC._

 

If this is the case, then what does Justin mean in saying that the Pico is "_unique_"?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koto-in* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If this is the case, then what does Justin mean in saying that the Pico is "unique"?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...the Pico is unique because it does not convert USB to SPDIF and then to I2S as most if not all multiple-input DACs do. It goes straight to I2S there is no SPDIF conversion_

 

Does that clear things up?


----------



## stevenkelby

For those that don't know, SPDIF splits the data and clock signals, introducing jitter and whatnot. The music has to go through this twice, I2S to SPDIF -cable- and then SPDIF to I2S. An imod does the same thing, straight to DAC with no SPDIF. All other external DAC that I know of use SPDIF.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_An imod does the same thing, straight to DAC with no SPDIF._

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this, doesn't the iMod just bypass a bunch of stuff and replace others with higher quality parts after the DAC to the line out?


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure what you mean by this, doesn't the iMod just bypass a bunch of stuff and replace others with higher quality parts after the DAC to the line out?_

 

Yeah your right, I just meant that an imod is superior to an external DAC in as much as the sound doesn't go through SPDIF. That's true for all ipods and daps in general though.

 Kind of OT I guess but I know people do wonder about why the imod is claimed to be so good and this contributes.


----------



## d-cee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those that don't know, SPDIF splits the data and clock signals, introducing jitter and whatnot. The music has to go through this twice, I2S to SPDIF -cable- and then SPDIF to I2S. An imod does the same thing, straight to DAC with no SPDIF. All other external DAC that I know of use SPDIF._

 

sorry mate, but that post is incorrect in so many ways


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *d-cee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry mate, but that post is incorrect in so many ways_

 

Fair enough, I'm no genius. That's just how I remember Vinnie explaining it to me. I'll go find his email. 

 What's the correct info?


----------



## stevenkelby

Here's what Vinnie wrote me, a few months ago now.

  Quote:


 Hi Steve,

 One of the advantages of the iMod vs.using an external dac is that there is no SPDIF involved. SPDIF is not all that great... the multiplexing of the clock and data signals is the worst thing about it. The I2S interface is what most actual dac chips use. So if an external dac has an SPDIF input, inside there is going to be an SPDIF receiver chip that is going to do conversion to I2S to pass to the internal dac chip. There is more jitter in this conversion process. 

 Keep in mind that the transport (e.g. CD player or any other source that generates the SPDIF output) has to also create the SPDIF signal. Then it must be transferred via a cable (coax or optical) to the external dac.

 The beauty of the iMod is the simplicity of the circuit path, and the very small circuit design (very clean, short signal paths). The whole thing is battery powered as well, so the power source is nice and clean 

 Best regards,

 Vinnie


----------



## milkpowder

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *d-cee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry mate, but that post is incorrect in so many ways_

 

_Constructive_ criticism please
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 iMod is probably better than an external DAC if we're talking about the quality of the signal going into the I2S interface of the DAC chip. What comes out the other side is dependent on a lot more other factors apart from the quality of the input signal. Anyhow, if jitter generated by the coaxial cable and S/PDIF chips is what we're most worried about, then there are currently a lot of DACs that clame to be very near jitter-proof. Elias claims the DAC1 is one such DAC and backs it up with numerous graphs and what-nots. Even the DAC in the Cambridge Audio 740c CD player is claimed to be more or less immune. I wonder how "jitter-proof" the Pico is.


----------



## koto-in

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does that clear things up?_

 

No. If there is no optical/coax input, then there is no need for a multiple input DAC and thus no spdif conversion.

 What it sounds like Justin is saying, and maybe he can pipe back in, is that because there is no 24-bit input, he can somehow use a 24-bit multiple-input DAC for 16-bit data without conversion to spdif. Since signal gain will presumably be applied by the analog amplification circuitry, I'm not clear what the advantage of this would be, but maybe Justin can shed some light on the matter.


----------



## koto-in

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's what Vinnie wrote me, a few months ago now._

 

What this means is that if you're listening to 16-bit data, then sound quality may be better with a 16-bit DAC because there will be no spdif conversion involved.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkpowder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Constructive criticism please
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 iMod is probably better than an external DAC if we're talking about the quality of the signal going into the I2S interface of the DAC chip. What comes out the other side is dependent on a lot more other factors apart from the quality of the input signal. Anyhow, if jitter generated by the coaxial cable and S/PDIF chips is what we're most worried about, then there are currently a lot of DACs that clame to be very near jitter-proof. Elias claims the DAC1 is one such DAC and backs it up with numerous graphs and what-nots. Even the DAC in the Cambridge Audio 740c CD player is claimed to be more or less immune. I wonder how "jitter-proof" the Pico is._

 

MP, d-cee's cool, but I would like his thoughts!

 I didn't mean that an imod is necessarily better than any other DAC set up, (time and place for that) just that the fact it doesn't use SPDIF is an advantage. That's what I tried to say with  Quote:


 in as much as 
 

 but obviously it came out wrong.

 Anyway, looking forward to the Pico.


----------



## justin w.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkpowder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there are currently a lot of DACs that clame to be very near jitter-proof. Elias claims the DAC1 is one such DAC and backs it up with numerous graphs and what-nots. Even the DAC in the Cambridge Audio 740c CD player is claimed to be more or less immune. I wonder how "jitter-proof" the Pico is._

 

They make this claim because of the use of the AD1896 for upsampling which is also used in the Pico


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koto-in* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. If there is no optical/coax input, then there is no need for a multiple input DAC and thus no spdif conversion._

 

Exactly, that's the point Justin is making, there is no S/PDIF conversion in the Pico. The USB in the Pico goes straight to I2S, if he were to add an optical/coaxial input though S/PDIF coversion would be necessary.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koto-in* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What this means is that if you're listening to 16-bit data, then sound quality may be better with a 16-bit DAC because there will be no spdif conversion involved._

 

OK thanks. Sorry all for OT but while I'm learning here, what's the diff? 

 Are CD's 24 bit or something? Is the stuff on an ipod all 16 bit? Are mp3 and flac different (16/24)?

 As you see I have no idea about that yet. Searched wiki and Google but obviously not well enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## justin w.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks for clearing this up, justin. for portable purposes i agree that maximizing battery life while retaining excellent sound quality are of utmost importance.

 while we have you here, do you have an updated timetable for when you will start selling these? thanks..._

 

kugino, i'm taking pre-orders now and I'll have an official thread on that very soon


----------



## koto-in

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They make this claim because of the use of the AD1896 for upsampling which is also used in the Pico_

 

There is our answer. The data is upsampled to 24-bit. Thanks Justin.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koto-in* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is our answer. The data is upsampled to 24-bit. Thanks Justin._

 

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you were asking.


----------



## koto-in

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK thanks. Sorry all for OT but while I'm learning here, what's the diff? 

 Are CD's 24 bit or something? Is the stuff on an ipod all 16 bit? Are mp3 and flac different (16/24)?

 As you see I have no idea about that yet. Searched wiki and Google but obviously not well enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ._

 

CD is 16-bit. SACD and DVD-Audio as well as most recorded music that has not yet been reduced for CD distribution are 24-bit.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koto-in* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_CD is 16-bit. SACD and DVD-Audio as well as most recorded music that has not yet been reduced for CD distribution are 24-bit._

 

Great thanks for that info. Why don't I know these things? I assume PC and mp3 players all give digital 16 bit too?


----------



## grawk

24bit doesn't sound any different than 16 bit if the source material is 16bit. The # of bits is strictly dynamic range. Upsampling doesn't add more bits, it claims to add more frequency resolution. So you'd upsample from 44 to 88, but not from 16bit to 24bit. The only time number of bits will come into play is if you try to play back something with more bits than the dac can handle, and then you can get least significant bit truncation, which can add noise.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_24bit doesn't sound any different than 16 bit if the source material is 16bit. The # of bits is strictly dynamic range. Upsampling doesn't add more bits, it claims to add more frequency resolution. So you'd upsample from 44 to 88, but not from 16bit to 24bit. The only time number of bits will come into play is if you try to play back something with more bits than the dac can handle, and then you can get least significant bit truncation, which can add noise._

 

I understand that, makes sense. Was just wondering how many bits an ipod or something uses. It's not relevant to anything though.


----------



## grawk

Anything ripped from cd has 16 bits.


----------



## stevenkelby

Got it, thanks. Found some stuff on the net too.

 Anyone got an opinion on using the Pico as a dac only and amplifying it's output through a power amp? Using it as a DAC/Pre-amp I mean? Should work fine right?


----------



## grawk

I'd bet it sounds ok, but wouldn't do it, myself. It works great as a small dac + amp for listening directly tho. I was blown away when I heard it in july.


----------



## stevenkelby

I might want to use it to feed a loudspeaker amp to drive my PC speakers, or to feed a RWA Sig.30.2 to power the H2s. Mainly I will use the imod for that though. Really it's for watching TV or movies that I would want to use it as a pre-amp.


----------



## d-cee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those that don't know, SPDIF splits the data and clock signals, introducing jitter and whatnot. The music has to go through this twice, I2S to SPDIF -cable- and then SPDIF to I2S. An imod does the same thing, straight to DAC with no SPDIF. All other external DAC that I know of use SPDIF._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fair enough, I'm no genius. That's just how I remember Vinnie explaining it to me. I'll go find his email. 

 What's the correct info?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkpowder* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Constructive criticism please
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

sure =D

 well firstly jitter is introduced into SPDIF, because of its fundamental design and the interface it uses (TOSLINK and Coaxial) jitter is actually greatly minimised by having a separate word clock and some DACs have this extra input to accept a clock from a master clock.

 When an external DAC is used, if in conjunction with a CD player transport, then it *may* use I2S (depending on the chipset) which is then converted back to SPDIF and over the cable and into the receiver, but again, depending on the chipset at the receiving end *may* be converted back to I2S but afaik most don't.

 As for the iMod, i think what vinnie is trying to say is that it doesn't use SPDIF at all, rather than the iMod bypassing it. He was comparing it to a 2 box solution, the same benefits could be applied to a single box CD player.

 I think I've got it all right... =D

 edit: also didn't mean to come across as an @$$ earlier, was in a hurry to make the post is all


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_kugino, i'm taking pre-orders now and I'll have an official thread on that very soon_

 

thanks justin...i've been on the pre-order list for a couple weeks...just wondering.


----------



## mistahan

I've been reading the thread over a few times but I am still confused on how pico works. I understand that pico is dac/amp, but that's about it. Somebody said dac is powered by the USB, whereas amp is powered by the battery. If I have pico connected to my home computer to work as dac, then do I still need to replace battery to have amp work? Or will there be a separate power input? If battery is the only way to supply the amp, doesn't that mean it's meant to be for portable use only? Then why is there the USB DAC? I just don't understand why there has to be 2 separate source of power.


----------



## elnero

Because the only input for the DAC is USB it will only ever be used with a computer or laptop via USB so it makes sense for it to be powered via USB. If the DAC were powered via battery the battery would have to be much larger, thus the unit itself would have to be larger. Powering the DAC via USB helps accomplish the design goal of small size. 

 Yes the amp is designed to be a portable amp so, to my knowledge, is always powered via the li-ion battery. I believe the AC adapter is for charging only but I've sent an email to Justin to verify that. The amp does not need the internal DAC to work, it can function as an amp on it's own fed from an external source via the line input so the battery is necessary for the amplifier.

 As an example, on the go I would use the Pico as an amp only with my iPod but at work and home I can hook it up to my computer via USB to make use of the internal DAC for a higher quality source. If I had a laptop I could also use the Pico as a DAC/Amp combo on the go as opposed to using just the amp section with my iPod. It's really about versatility and portability.


----------



## edwardsean

I also joined the wait list. I know that the Pico is going to have an analog in to function as a standalone amp, but will it be able to bypass the amp section to function as a standalone DAC?


----------



## PFKMan23

Nope it can't. The only output (AFAIK), is the headphone out. In any case in any DAC there is an analog output stage, which as a headphone amp isn't too shabby.


----------



## elnero

I got clarification on the battery/charging statement I made previously. I was wrong in my assumption, when the DC adapter is attached the Pico will be powered by it and not the battery. Sorry if I confused anyone.


----------



## elnero

Up until now I've only used my computer for encoding, storage and transfer not as an actual source. If I go the Pico route what, if anything, special will I need to do to my computers at home and work for the USB to function properly? 

 My computer at home is a run of the mill HP Pavilion with Realtek onboard audio. My current computer at work is a generic Compaq again with Realtek audio but it's expected that will be upgraded to a new 20" iMac probably running boot camp for access to both Windows XP and OSX.


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Up until now I've only used my computer for encoding, storage and transfer not as an actual source. If I go the Pico route what, if anything, special will I need to do to my computers at home and work for the USB to function properly? 

 My computer at home is a run of the mill HP Pavilion with Realtek onboard audio. My current computer at work is a generic Compaq again with Realtek audio but it's expected that will be upgraded to a new 20" iMac probably running boot camp for access to both Windows XP and OSX._

 

Just plug in Pico via USB and off you go! You _might_ have to go to Sound settings and select the output, but not likely. If so, its very easy (PM me if you'll need help).


----------



## stevenkelby

You'll need a media player that can play your file formats too of course, Foobar is the best for me.


----------



## elnero

Well that sounds easy enough. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been using foobar almost since the day it came out so not much of a change there.

 One thing though, this is probably a really stupid question but I'll ask anyway, I keep seeing this Asio4all, is that just for S/PDIF output or is that something that would be related to USB out as well?


----------



## stevieo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *antonyfirst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_n_maher: did you try to drive your K340 or ER4P with the Pico?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 it will drive a k-1000!!!!!


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevieo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it will drive a k-1000!!!!!_

 

How well? Did you hear it or compare it to any other amps? I understand no one at the meet compared it to other amps as it was hooked up to Justins LT all day.


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevieo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it will drive a k-1000!!!!!_

 

ditto with the above post: how well?

 btw, has anyone heard from justin when he's going to start shipping these and taking real orders? i'm on the pre-order list but that's not saying much...

 i also want to know when those mosfet modules for the GS-1 are going to ship, too...so many questions, i know...


----------



## justin w.

kugino,

 I submitted the sponsored forum thread about the Pico pre-ordering yesterday, it will be up whenever it's approved. They should be ready to ship sometime in November.

 On the modules, I'm waiting for a replacement to the 2SJ109 to be released


----------



## Icarium

Ah yeah, already locked in unit #0001, pre-ordered by email ;p


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_kugino,

 I submitted the sponsored forum thread about the Pico pre-ordering yesterday, it will be up whenever it's approved. They should be ready to ship sometime in November.

 On the modules, I'm waiting for a replacement to the 2SJ109 to be released_

 

thanks for the info justin...looking forward to this.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevieo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it will drive a k-1000!!!!!_

 

I find that hard to believe, but I'll see (hear) for myself... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If it does drive K1000's well, let alone without clipping or distorting, the Pico will be a very special amp indeed.

 -Ed


----------



## stevenkelby

Well, my standard ipod hp out will "drive" H2s (with TR2). It is audible but not quite powerful enough for my tastes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The H2 needs at least 10V p-p though. Justin confirmed what the Pico puts out and it's less than that. I'm not sure what the K1000 needs, anyone?


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, my standard ipod hp out will "drive" H2s (with TR2). It is audible but not quite powerful enough for my tastes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The H2 needs at least 10V p-p though. Justin confirmed what the Pico puts out and it's less than that. I'm not sure what the K1000 needs, anyone?_

 

I've never seen an amp with less than 15V be able to keep the K1000's from clipping. And sounding good is another level altogether.

 -Ed


----------



## Fing

nt


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ The H2 needs at least 10V p-p though. Justin confirmed what the Pico puts out and it's less than that._

 

I should say, I don't know if Justin wants specs made public yet or if they are even finalised but the Pico does get very close to 10V p-p, p.

 My Ruudistor RPX-33 only gives 10V p-p. It does a good job of the H2s but not great. Not good enough imo.

 Of course other measures are probably more important than just V p-p. 

 Anyway, the Pico will do a great job with the ED9 I'm sure but obviously it's not meant to be a loudspeaker amplifier.


----------



## edwardsean

Have you all seen this over at Headwize:
http://headwize.com/ubb/newsshowpage.php?fnum=1&tid=72

 It includes some information and this picture attached. It looks authentic especially in comparison to the earlier pictures of the circuit board.

 Well it's finally good to be able to put a face with the name.


----------



## luidge

Wow great faceplate, classy!


----------



## kugino

yeah, it doesn't look too shabby.


----------



## warrior05

I love the volume knob! Should be very easy to use even if it is tight. The knob on the Move can be trying since it is so tight and with its smooth surface can be difficult to turn.


----------



## The_Duke_Of_Eli

It looks pretty good. Personally I like the move better, but I'm sure it'll be a fairly nice unit. Will probably top the Move with the addition of a 200$ USB DAC. Let's get one into skylab's hands ASAP so we can see how it stacks up.


----------



## stevenkelby

I like it a lot.


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The_Duke_Of_Eli* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks pretty good. Personally I like the move better, but I'm sure it'll be a fairly nice unit. Will probably top the Move with the addition of a 200$ USB DAC. Let's get one into skylab's hands ASAP so we can see how it stacks up._

 

What do you mean you like the move better? The looks of it?
 Skylab probably already picked his favorite amps.


----------



## Asr

Whoa! That chassis exceeds my expectations! As nice as the AE-2 looks, the Pico looks even classier!


----------



## Edwood

Hopefully the pic of my rendering is not so compressed for the official Preorder thread here.

 And the volume knob is still being tweaked. Will be better than the one shown in that pic on Headwize. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 -Ed


----------



## lextek

This looks like a very, interesting solution for laptop audio. Very, nice.


----------



## PeterDLai

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hopefully the pic of my rendering is not so compressed for the official Preorder thread here.

 And the volume knob is still being tweaked. Will be better than the one shown in that pic on Headwize. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed_

 

Yeah, I think the compression of the image is taking away from its beauty.

 Can't wait to see an actual photo. The rendering looks pretty sweet.


----------



## The_Duke_Of_Eli

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrSlacker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you mean you like the move better? The looks of it?
 Skylab probably already picked his favorite amps._

 

I mean I like the looks of the Move better than the Pico. And I want to see a comparison of the Pico/Move/D1.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the volume knob is still being tweaked. Will be better than the one shown in that pic on Headwize. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed_

 

Tweaked how?

 By the way, very nice rendering.


----------



## akwok

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The_Duke_Of_Eli* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean I like the looks of the Move better than the Pico. And I want to see a comparison of the Pico/Move/D1._

 

Ewwwww.


----------



## PeterDLai

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The_Duke_Of_Eli* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean I like the looks of the Move better than the Pico. And I want to see a comparison of the Pico/Move/D1._

 

I like how the Corda MOVE is very clean looking. However, I don't like the two-colored body. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That being said, I think an actual photo of the finished Pico will look pretty nice and will probably win me over... but for nearly $300 more? I'm not so sure right now.

 BTW, here's a better quality image of the rendition of the unit compared to a quarter. You can see how tiny it is, very exemplary of the "Pico" name.





 Here's the (huge) full-size image of the rendition.


----------



## apnk

I like it! Is the power switch in the volume knob?


----------



## PeterDLai

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *apnk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like it! Is the power switch in the volume knob?_

 

That would be interesting, but I suspect it's in the back.


----------



## justin w.

The power switch is built into the volume control

 Peter, when I release the full set of specs for the Pico I think it will be clear that I am trying to set a low price for it


----------



## Computerstud

This Pico thingy seems interesting. Let's get this out and get some impressions started. Eagerly awaiting the Pico arrival. 

 I wonder if the Pico can compete with some of the better home amp offerings? 

 I'm also curious how the DAC fair against some of the DAC/AMP units out there such as Meier's Opera, Ibasso D1, etc...?


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PeterDLai* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like how the Corda MOVE is very clean looking. However, I don't like the two-colored body. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That being said, I think an actual photo of the finished Pico will look pretty nice and will probably win me over... but for nearly $300 more? I'm not so sure right now.

 BTW, here's a better quality image of the rendition of the unit compared to a quarter. You can see how tiny it is, very exemplary of the "Pico" name.





 Here's the (huge) full-size image of the rendition._

 

Heheh. I was wondering how you found that pic. I guess the official preorder thread is up.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=261440

 -Ed


----------



## jamato8

I can't get the image just an error message. 

 Jam


----------



## kugino

just got an email from justin saying the pre-order thread is up and even if you've emailed him a pre-order, to order again on the thread.


----------



## Corbet

I'm just curious if the Pico is worth considering for someone who doesn't care about having a portable amp? I know that smaller parts = more expensive and possibly a lowering in quality, or can a Pico be a desktop replacement?


----------



## OverlordXenu

I'm getting one for my Sextetts!












 (By the by, just kidding.)


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Corbet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just curious if the Pico is worth considering for someone who doesn't care about having a portable amp? I know that smaller parts = more expensive and possibly a lowering in quality, or can a Pico be a desktop replacement?_

 

X2. 
 Expecting, let's say, GLite level of performance is probably too much, isn't it?


----------



## PeterDLai

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heheh. I was wondering how you found that pic. I guess the official preorder thread is up.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=261440

 -Ed_

 

Actually, I saw it on another forum (HeadphoneHaven) before that thread popped up.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* 
_Peter, when I release the full set of specs for the Pico I think it will be clear that I am trying to set a low price for it_

 

Good to know.


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2. 
 Expecting, let's say, GLite level of performance is probably too much, isn't it?_

 

according to the early reviews it might be on par with or even best the G-lite!


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Corbet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just curious if the Pico is worth considering for someone who doesn't care about having a portable amp? I know that smaller parts = more expensive and possibly a lowering in quality, or can a Pico be a desktop replacement?_

 

I'd say it can be a desktop replacement. In my listening session with it, I found it to perform as a DAC/amp overall at least on the level of devices like the Apogee Mini-DAC and Benchmark DAC1 (if not higher). Assuming all one needs is a USB input, volume control, and headphone output, the Pico fits the situation superbly. Other "desktop" devices have more features, as far as I/O and options go.

 I wouldn't say that miniaturization lowers quality in this case, in fact SMD parts can often be more precise than their through-hole counterparts.


----------



## edwardsean

I'm also definitely going to get a unit. From first impressions I'm amazed and excited by the prospect of the DAC quality that Justin was able to magic in there. My concern though is still with the amp section. I have an Apogee unit and am not impressed with its headphone amp at all. It was of course not built primarily for that function. Would a few more who've heard the pico comment on it purely as amp in comparison to known entities like RSA, Xin, and Meier?


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edwardsean* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm also definitely going to get a unit. From first impressions I'm amazed and excited by the prospect of the DAC quality that Justin was able to magic in there. My concern though is still with the amp section. I have an Apogee unit and am not impressed with its headphone amp at all. It was of course not built primarily for that function. Would a few more who've heard the pico comment on it purely as amp in comparison to known entities like RSA, Xin, and Meier?_

 

if you read through this thread as well as justin's pre-order thread you will read a lot of comments about the amp section.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_according to the early reviews it might be on par with or even best the G-lite! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Haven't drawn that conclusion from reviews I've read. Can you please point to one? 
 Considering how close to GS-1 Glite is, I am a bit skeptical on that assessment.


----------



## Computerstud

Correct me if I'm wrong please but the Pico's DAC has the acclaim Wolfson WM8740 which a simple google/head-fi search shows that it present in many $1000 DAC.

 It appears that the impressions of the Pico were Mac-->DAC-->AMP and perhaps that is the reason for the impressive reviews comparing it to some of the hi-fi system. 

 Either way, if the Pico's AMP is anywhere near the SQ of the Move, RSA amps, Larocco I think we got a winner. Additionally, running the AMP through the very high spec DAC should theoretically yield SQ rivaling many desktop rig.

 BTW, there are only 75 units available for reserve (first batch) and the thread currently has 33 pre-ordered within a day.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Computerstud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Correct me if I'm wrong please but the Pico's DAC has the acclaim Wolfson WM8740 which a simple google/head-fi search shows that it present in many $1000 DAC._

 

Correct, it's also the same DAC that's used in the Twisted Pear Opus DAC which I've been hearing good things about. In addition, Justin is going USB --> I2S without S/PDIF conversion which should increase quality as well.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Computerstud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It appears that the impressions of the Pico were Mac-->DAC-->AMP and perhaps that is the reason for the impressive reviews comparing it to some of the hi-fi system._

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Mac-->DAC-->AMP, there wasn't a separate amp, from my understanding listening impressions have been with both the Pico DAC and amplifier. So the chain looks like MAC-->Pico DAC-->Pico Amp-->Phones.


----------



## Computerstud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Mac-->DAC-->AMP, there wasn't a separate amp, from my understanding listening impressions have been with both the Pico DAC and amplifier. So the chain looks like MAC-->Pico DAC-->Pico Amp-->Phones._

 

That's what I meant. 
 The impressions were done on Justin's Mac --> Pico's DAC --> Pico's AMP --> HPs


----------



## iggee85

Anyone who has heard the HeadAmp Pico AND the iBasso D1 wanna give a preliminary comparison in SQ?


----------



## dw6928

I think you have to wait for the Pico release to get a real comparison with the D1. Those that heard the Pico were listening to a prototype.


----------



## matt8268

Two questions:

 1. What is the gain of the "low gain" setting, is it unity gain or higher? I have found unity to work perfectly for IEMs.

 2. Will there be a way to go USB in and get line out, so the DAC portion can be used to feed other amps?

 I'm guessing the answer to both questions is no, but I'd love a couple yes's.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haven't drawn that conclusion from reviews I've read. Can you please point to one? 
 Considering how close to GS-1 Glite is, I am a bit skeptical on that assessment._

 


 It's better than any dynalo implementation I've heard. Hands down.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's better than any dynalo implementation I've heard. Hands down._


----------



## grawk

I'll give it a good solid listen next weekend. The version he brought this summer wasn't the same as the current revision.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll give it a good solid listen next weekend. The version he brought this summer wasn't the same as the current revision._

 

Any idea what's different?


----------



## grawk

Nope


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's better than any dynalo implementation I've heard. Hands down._

 

Not sure how seriously I should take this statement. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But I am not in the position to ague as haven't heard one myself. 
 Does anyone else with the first hand Pico experience want to chime in?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

A couple of impressions from SoCal meeting.
 Doesn't look like they quite qualify Pico as a "desktop replacement".
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...2&postcount=87
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...1&postcount=88
 Yes, it is better than most if not all portable amps around here, but is it GLite out of a decent DAC good?


----------



## grawk

The key is the quality of the dac on the pico. I'm sure a glite fed by an opus 21 would probably sound better than a pico, but for the asking price, the pico is amazing.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The key is the quality of the dac on the pico. I'm sure a glite fed by an opus 21 would probably sound better than a pico, but for the asking price, the pico is amazing._

 

Thanks, that's pretty much what I thought. 
 Too bad line-out option is not available.


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Considering the fact that almost any DAC has/needs an output stage, one could look at head headphone amp of the Pico in such a way. Given that the Pico has a low-gain mode, the volume level could conceivably be turned to maximum, and the headphone jack used like a line output. Once Justin reveals more specs of the unit, like the gain levels (and maximum voltage output for each), such possibilities will become more clearly feasible.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Considering the fact that almost any DAC has/needs an output stage, one could look at head headphone amp of the Pico in such a way. Given that the Pico has a low-gain mode, the volume level could conceivably be turned to maximum, and the headphone jack used like a line output. Once Justin reveals more specs of the unit, like the gain levels (and maximum voltage output for each), such possibilities will become more clearly feasible._

 

Now that could open up a whole new world of possibilities.


----------



## martook

Anyone knows if / how well this cutie will work in linux? The onboard sound card on my work lappy is driving me nuts, so looking at alternatives to get decent sound output.

 I'd also like to be able to drive a pair of small speakers with an external amp, so it would be great if that worked as well


----------



## warrior05

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone knows if / how well this cutie will work in linux? The onboard sound card on my work lappy is driving me nuts, so looking at alternatives to get decent sound output.

 I'd also like to be able to drive a pair of small speakers with an external amp, so it would be great if that worked as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This hasn't been officially released yet.


----------



## justin w.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone knows if / how well this cutie will work in linux? The onboard sound card on my work lappy is driving me nuts, so looking at alternatives to get decent sound output.

 I'd also like to be able to drive a pair of small speakers with an external amp, so it would be great if that worked as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, it will work in Linux. There's no reason you can't consider the headphone output as a pre-out as well, so you can connect it to an external amp and use with speakers if you want.


----------



## matt8268

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's no reason you can't consider the headphone output as a pre-out as well, so you can connect it to an external amp and use with speakers if you want._

 

That just might make ALL the difference for me. Excellent!


----------



## warrior05

I'll just shut up now.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, it will work in Linux. There's no reason you can't consider the headphone output as a pre-out as well, so you can connect it to an external amp and use with speakers if you want._

 

But will it work as well as dedicated line-out? Unfortunately the answer is "no".
 IBasso D1 is using line in socket as out when operating as a DAC. 
 Can the next version of Pico work the same way? That will require no changes to enclosure?

 Thanks.

More info on IBasso Line-in/Out implementation
  Quote:


 Benefit from the MCU, the port AUX IN/OUT on the front panel can have multi-function. When there is SPDIF signal inputing, this port is Line Out, otherwise, it is Line In.


----------



## justin w.

Andrew,

 The Pico is first and foremost a portable headphone amp, and the USB DAC is optional. The iBasso is 4 times the size of the Pico, so they have more room to implement a feature requiring a microcontroller. I wanted to use every square millimeter for one goal, to take the sound of portables to a new level -- compared to a portable of any size -- with headphones, as this is for Head-Fi.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Except that this *optional* DAC turned out to be so good that beats crap out of all similar priced options.
 Sorry, Justin, having an option to use it as a standalone DAC even at the expense of some additional size is just my and others wishful thinking. 
 Wondering if you have any plans to support that in your future product offerings?

 EDIT: Please.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Except that this *optional* DAC turned out to be so good that beats crap out of all similar priced options.
 Sorry, Justin, having an option to use it as a standalone DAC even at the expense of some additional size is just my and others wishful thinking. 
 Wondering if you have any plans to support that in your future product offerings?

 EDIT: Please. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think if you go back through some of the info in this and some of the other threads that have Pico info in them you'll find you're answer.


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Andrew,

 The Pico is first and foremost a portable headphone amp, and the USB DAC is optional._

 

Justin, I'm sure I can't be the only one scratching my head over this, but what makes the AE-2 more compelling than the Pico then, if the Pico is designed more as an amp alone? Will all be revealed when you release the detailed specs of the Pico?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Justin, I'm sure I can't be the only one scratching my head over this, but what makes the AE-2 more compelling than the Pico then, if the Pico is designed more as an amp alone? Will all be revealed when you release the detailed specs of the Pico?_

 

Off the top of my head I'd say the input/output options make the AE-2 more versatile as an amp only option and if memory serves I believe the battery life is about half again as much.


----------



## Computerstud

Justin,
 1) Are you offering gain customization?
 2) How much gain are you implementing on the Pico?
 3) I have read the AE-2 is as quiet as a mouse on Christmas day, will the Pico also be equally silent? 
 4) How the heck did you fit all those specs into the Pico? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am on the pre-order list but would like the high gain to be at least the level of the AE-2 or at high as possible without introducing hiss/distortion. 

 Since most of the pre-orders are from members that are experience with great audio gears, we are sure to get different impressions, a mosaic picture if you will of what the Pico is truly capable of.


----------



## justin w.

1) Are you offering gain customization?

 Probably not. Low gain works perfect for IEMs, high gain for everything else. 

 2) How much gain are you implementing on the Pico?

 Low is 2 (6dB), and high is 8 (18dB).

 3) I have read the AE-2 is as quiet as a mouse on Christmas day, will the Pico also be equally silent? 

 The Pico is quieter than the AE-2

 4) How the heck did you fit all those specs into the Pico? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wanted the Pico to be a true effort to see how much one person can do with a 2" box. Someone who saw the prototype and said to me "There's a lot of s**t in there...I would just put in 1 chip". I hoped what makes the Pico different from that would be recognized and I'm happy that it is so far.


----------



## PeterDLai

Is the Pico going to sound better than the AE-2?


----------



## Fing

Now I know why my wife snaps at me for asking inane questions after she spends a day teaching kids.


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Fing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I know why my wife snaps at me for asking inane questions after she spends a day teaching kids._

 

x2


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) Are you offering gain customization?

 Probably not. Low gain works perfect for IEMs, high gain for everything else. 

 2) How much gain are you implementing on the Pico?

 Low is 2 (6dB), and high is 8 (18dB)._

 

Wow, isn't that GS-1 gain settings? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Would that be possible to request unity low gain on ordering?


----------



## Ricey20

I wonder how the amp section compares to a Lisa III since I was considering getting the Lisa, going to have to wait and see how this one is now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I also wonder how the DAC is compared to a x-fi elite pro's which my desktop has, but if anything i can use it for my macbook 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I currently have a Mini3 as my portable amp, im assuming the pico will be much better, anyone heard both and have any thoughts?


----------



## iggee85

Quote:


 Yes, it will work in Linux. 
 

Do you mean it will be autodetected by any version? For example, as long as I'm running 2.6.xx, it should work fine.
 Or will we have to download drivers and build them into a custom kernel?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Would there be a discerning SQ difference between running Pico off the battery and charger?


----------



## Ricey20

Anyone have any idea if the Pico's DAC will equal or beat a X-Fi Elite Pro's DAC?


----------



## grawk

good chance


----------



## SR-71Panorama

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone have any idea if the Pico's DAC will equal or beat a X-Fi Elite Pro's DAC?_

 

Based solely on reviews, I would say almost certainly


----------



## justin w.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would there be a discerning SQ difference between running Pico off the battery and charger?_

 

No, not possible to tell the difference. I added a regulator inside the amp for when the DC adapter is plugged in


----------



## Ricey20

Hey Justin,
 Would you by any chance have tested the pico to a sound card's DAC like an X-Fi? Any thoughts?


----------



## schelhorn

Wrong thread, sorry.


----------



## misterDX

dont wanna bother justin if he have all this questions to answer, but just want to know if anyone at the meet have a chance to listen to k701 with pico, cuz k701 is picky when choosing the right amp goes. thanks


----------



## LarryVale

It's been said at least once before yet I will put my vote in for one of these with optical in. I'll deal with shorter battery life. I have a D1 on order only beause it has optical and amp rolling features. I much prefer something smaller. It's for gym use too!


----------



## unbiased

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *antonyfirst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm very interested in this DAC/amp. It would be even better if it had an optical line-in._

 

This pico has pic'ed my interest, but I too would like it to have both coax S/PDIF and Toslink optical digital input jacks along with the I2S USB connector.

 I cannot see the hype of this being the best darn DAC/amp on the market and yet cannot use it to hear my CD transport or DVD transport or my Cable box music channels via toslink or coax connections. What is the thinking here? I am not going to only listen to my PC's via USB port.

 Justin, please rethink your design offering or at least offer a model with all the connections... OH, include good old fashion analog line-in capability also, so that I can plug my old radios an portable players into it too.

 Please!


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *unbiased* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... include good old fashion analog line-in capability also, so that I can plug my old radios an portable players into it too.
_

 

It does have analog input(3.5mm), just not RCA connections like the AE-2.


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *unbiased* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This pico has pic'ed my interest, but I too would like it to have both coax S/PDIF and Toslink optical digital input jacks along with the I2S USB connector.

 I cannot see the hype of this being the best dawn DAC/amp on the market and yet cannot use it to hear my CD transport or DVD transport or my Cable box music channels via toslink or coax connections. What is the thinking here? I am not going to only listen to my PC's via USB port.

 Justin, please rethink your design offering or at least offer a model with all the connections... OH, include good old fashion analog line-in capability also, so that I can plug my old radios an portable players into it too.

 Please!_

 

I encourage you to read all of Justin's posts in this thread (don't even have to read the entire thread, just Justin's replies) because he covered all of your questions already.
 Come to the NYC meet next month and listen to Pico yourself, I bet you'll see what the hype is all about


----------



## Computerstud

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *unbiased* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This pico has pic'ed my interest, but I too would like it to have both coax S/PDIF and Toslink optical digital input jacks along with the I2S USB connector.

 I cannot see the hype of this being the best dawn DAC/amp on the market and yet cannot use it to hear my CD transport or DVD transport or my Cable box music channels via toslink or coax connections. What is the thinking here? I am not going to only listen to my PC's via USB port.

 Justin, please rethink your design offering or at least offer a model with all the connections... OH, include good old fashion analog line-in capability also, so that I can plug my old radios an portable players into it too.

 Please!_


----------



## unbiased

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrSlacker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I encourage you to read all of Justin's posts in this thread (don't even have to read the entire thread, just Justin's replies) because he covered all of your questions already.
 Come to the NYC meet next month and listen to Pico yourself, I bet you'll see what the hype is all about 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Okay will do, thanks! I was just browsing lightly the forums, if the answers are in there, I will find them... but I also wanted to voice my vote that digital coax and optical connections should be included... else no matter how good that DAC section is, it would be of no use to me (and I guess many others), so I won't buy it then. If it does include all of these inputs making it more versatile, I definitely would buy it, provided it lives up to the claims being made of it thus far. On the iBasso D1 thread, I just read that some folks have received notifications that the iBasso D1 is shipping now! So... I am going to order the iBasso D1 for now if it really is back in stock. But I am going to keep an eye on this Pico with DAC model too... so don't give up Justin!


----------



## unbiased

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It does have analog input(3.5mm), just not RCA connections like the AE-2._

 

Cool! That's good! 1 down, 2 to go!


----------



## unbiased

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To fit an optical connector, a switch to select the digital input, and components for a SPDIF receiver, the length of the Pico would have to be increased by about 20%. But what's more significant is the DAC circuit in the Pico uses about 100mA of current, and the headphone amp 25mA, if all of this ran off the battery w/ the optical input it would only last 4.4 hours! There are low power DAC chips out there, like what is found in MP3 players, those would give a good battery life but I am trying to do something special here and sound quality is most important...otherwise why bother? To keep the 20 hour play time using optical the battery would need to be physically 4 times larger. It would also be difficult to add an optical input and preserve the USB performance, the Pico is unique because it does not convert USB to SPDIF and then to I2S as most if not all multiple-input DACs do. It goes straight to I2S there is no SPDIF conversion_

 

Just started reading this thread Justin, and I had asked for inclusion of coax and optical inputs earlier before seeing all your responses. So now that I see that you have been asked all these questions and your concern is to keep the Pico small and portable with long battery life with the best sound, I understand why you (and other manufacturers) chose to only implement the much simpler USB I2S direct to DAC approach (which technically is supposed to be superior, I know). But I am after a DAC/amp with coax and optical and analog input capability also and not concerned with the size or portability. So with that said, maybe you can offer us all those inputs and put it in a bigger package, (does not have to be so portable for my needs can be a home unit) and call it another model name (not a Pico). What's a name that represents the next larger size above a Pico? Call it that and sell it to me! Thanks!


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *unbiased* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just started reading this thread Justin, and I had asked for inclusion of coax and optical inputs earlier before seeing all your responses. So now that I see that you have been asked all these questions and your concern is to keep the Pico small and portable with long battery life with the best sound, I understand why you (and other manufacturers) chose to only implement the much simpler USB I2S direct to DAC approach (which technically is supposed to be superior, I know). But I am after a DAC/amp with coax and optical and analog input capability also and not concerned with the size or portability. So with that said, maybe you can offer us all those inputs and put it in a bigger package, (does not have to be so portable for my needs can be a home unit) and call it another model name (not a Pico). What's a name that represents the next larger size above a Pico? Call it that and sell it to me! Thanks!_

 

There are already plenty of DAC/amp units that have coaxial and optical inputs, have you looked into those?


----------



## PFKMan23

Keep in mind that he's already discussed this (to my knowledge atleast) and one does seem to be in the works, but that's for the distant future. It also probably won't be cheap at all. And the next "size up" would be the nano, but...


----------



## FooTemps

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *unbiased* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just started reading this thread Justin, and I had asked for inclusion of coax and optical inputs earlier before seeing all your responses. So now that I see that you have been asked all these questions and your concern is to keep the Pico small and portable with long battery life with the best sound, I understand why you (and other manufacturers) chose to only implement the much simpler USB I2S direct to DAC approach (which technically is supposed to be superior, I know). But I am after a DAC/amp with coax and optical and analog input capability also and not concerned with the size or portability. So with that said, maybe you can offer us all those inputs and put it in a bigger package, (does not have to be so portable for my needs can be a home unit) and call it another model name (not a Pico). What's a name that represents the next larger size above a Pico? Call it that and sell it to me! Thanks!_

 

ibasso d1?


----------



## LarryVale

I have a D1 coming. 

 I was putting my vote in, like others, for a unit with an optical input for Justin to get an idea that the market for that item may not be as limited as he thinks. 

 I was also operating on the squeeky wheel theory.

 For someone to tell another, the question has been asked and answered and the answer is NO, ummm ...thats offputting and, I will argue, not the best way to encourage a free flow of information. Sounded a bit like Justin and the 12 Diciples. 

 If Justin was giving away loaves and fishes ok..

 I think he's making Amps.


----------



## Asr

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say there but since when were product features negotiable? It seems like a bunch of people are trying to jump on Justin's back about not including coaxial or optical and he chose to exclude those for a reason - a very valid reason, and he's answered the questions about it.

 Every time a product from any vendor comes out the feature set is usually not something that can be easily changed - the work has already been done towards a specification. No one in this industry can build a product that's going to cater to everyone's needs. Beggars can't be choosers and if you don't like the Pico's feature set, then TOUGH, put up with it and stop complaining. Not all DACs have to have optical input. Other products exist for a reason. Justin has said this is a USB DAC, not optical. If you guys want a DAC with optical input there are plenty of others.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say there but since when were product features negotiable? It seems like a bunch of people are trying to jump on Justin's back about not including coaxial or optical and he chose to exclude those for a reason - a very valid reason, and he's answered the questions about it.

 Every time a product from any vendor comes out the feature set is usually not something that can be easily changed - the work has already been done towards a specification. No one in this industry can build a product that's going to cater to everyone's needs. Beggars can't be choosers and if you don't like the Pico's feature set, then TOUGH, put up with it and stop complaining. Not all DACs have to have optical input. Other products exist for a reason. Justin has said this is a USB DAC, not optical. If you guys want a DAC with optical input there are plenty of others._

 

X2

 I was actually probably one of the first to be a bit put off and voice my opinions about the lack of optical and/or coax but after I gained more knowledge about the design and Justin's intentions I quickly came around. It may not be exactly what I was looking for but in the end it may end up being exactly what I needed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think some people are put off by the lack of optical/coax because the DAC design does sound like it's going to be something special and they want to jump on board but what they're failing to realize is, at least IMO, part of the Pico's magic will lie within its USB only design.


----------



## trb36

It'll be interesting to see how the USB DAC compares to the iMod -> analog input. It's roughly the same price for me to iMod my 4g iPod as it is to get the DAC option. iMod can be a dedicated source, but only has a 40 gig HD. 

 It would be really neat if the Pico could be a stand-alone DAC, but oh well. Maybe the Pico is so great that I won't ever need another DAC or amp, and I can run from head-fi forever! 

 Anyway - iMod owners - when these start shipping let us know how the two sources stack up against each other.


----------



## dropkickduffy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say there but since when were product features negotiable?_

 

Seriously...


----------



## Icarium

I've heard both but not side by side. Imod was comparable (Slightly better or worse depending on taste) to my EMU 0404 usb (~150-200 dollars). I am very very familiar with the EMU 0404 usb as it is my current work source. I had the Imod for 1-2 weeks before I sold it and I listened to it heavily during that time and did side by side shootouts with alacs with the EMU 0404 usb. I had blessingx do the shootout with me and he got the same results. (I liked the imod maybe slightly better and he liked the EMU better. We both agreed definitely close to each other was only a matter if you like the mids slightly recessed with the imod or slightly more forward with the EMU. Everything else was very similar). 

 Now.. the Pico is solidly better than the EMU 0404 usb. It is at least 3 notches better. Of course I only spent 30 minutes with it, but the resolution was just better. The details/clarity/soundstage
 /imaging simply better. It wasn't really subtle enough to require more than 30 minutes to discern.


----------



## vcoheda

the Pico seems like it will be an improved Total BitHead - something for portable and transportable use, and even for the office. but it isn't meant to replace or serve as a home rig - although i'm sure for those on a budget and who use a computer based setup, it can serve this purpose as well.


----------



## grawk

The pico is an improved bithead in the way that a porsche 911 is an improved beetle.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the Pico seems like it will be an improved Total BitHead - something for portable and transportable use, and even for the office. but it isn't meant to replace or serve as a home rig - although i'm sure for those on a budget and who use a computer based setup, it can serve this purpose as well._

 

Well I can't see why not. If your headphone power requirements don't exceed 250mW, the Pico will serve perfectly as a home amp. Pico runs on 8V which is a little more than half of what most desktop or home amps run on, though. Obviously low gain is cleaner than high gain, so if your headphones are low impedance, the Pico Amp/DAC would be a perfect all-in-one solution. The only thing it's missing is a good crossfeed implementation, which many people like to use.


----------



## enjoiflobees

I can say that the Pico is better then the iMod. I cant really recall all of the differences but there was improvement from the iMod to the Pico.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the Pico seems like it will be an improved Total BitHead - something for portable and transportable use, and even for the office. but it isn't meant to replace or serve as a home rig..._

 

I've never heard a Total BitHead but from what I've read, the Porta Corda Mk III-USB is better than the TBH. My PC-USB with 30 volts sounds so good that I could survive with it and my laptop as source if needed.

 I plan to compare the PC-USB to the Pico(w/DAC) after it has had some burn-in time.


----------



## dw6928

any idea when the first wave is coming? all I remember was
 "November".


----------



## unbiased

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are already plenty of DAC/amp units that have coaxial and optical inputs, have you looked into those?_

 

Well I tried my best to search for DAC/headphone amps that met my criteria and could not find much that matched. I found the Grace M902 but that is very expensive (I don't really want to spend that much on a DAC and have it obsoleted in a few years). The Benchmark DAC-1 seems nice, but it does not have analog line input and also is kind of expensive for what I want. I can afford them easy, but my concern is that the advancement in technology in this arena moves so quickly that I am afraid to outlay that kind of cash and then have it superceded in no time. Then there is the iBasso D1 that is out of stock at this time. I have my sights and mind set on the iBasso D1 at this time... unless something comes along with exactly the same versatility, equal or better sound quality and price. The price makes it kick ass over anything out there today come to think of it. I don't even think the Pico can compete with it for value, except for size. I should qualify my desire a bit further and say that I don't want the DAC/amp to be huge home units, but I don't need it to be micro Pico size neither. Size of the iBasso D1, RSA Hornet, range is fine for me and preferred. Now if only iBasso can deliver.

 update: I also saw a few DAC/amps on ebay both tube and solid state units but none of them fully met my criteria to provide all inputs I mentioned already. And now if I were to spend the price range of the Grace M902 or Benchmark DAC-1 units, I would seriously consider the new Onkyo Integra DTC-9.8 preamp processor which is list for only $1,600.00 and far and away surpasses any of these in features and value. But I don't know of the sound quality verdict of the Onkyo Integra DTC-9.8 yet. It also looks like a huge monster unit which I do not like nor want. I wonder if any of you head-fi'ers know about this unit? Is it any good? See here: http://www.integrahometheater.com/mo...=Separates&p=i


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The pico is an improved bithead in the way that a porsche 911 is an improved beetle._

 

Hold it right there! The Porsche wishes it could be half as good as a Sir Beetle!


----------



## itsborken

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *enjoiflobees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can say that the Pico is better then the iMod. I cant really recall all of the differences but there was improvement from the iMod to the Pico._

 


 Can you expand on this a little--are you saying the pico and standard iPod LOD sounds better than iMod and amp 'X'? Are you comparing some other source (PCDB, USB laptop, etc.)? Thanks.


----------



## IPodPJ

I'm sure what he meant was that the Pico with DAC using the computer as source was better than using the analog line out from the iMod.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hold it right there! The Porsche wishes it could be half as good as a Sir Beetle! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






_

 

lol 

 not the love bug!!


----------



## Ricey20

Hmm RSA just announced "The Predator" Amp/dac too. Anyone have any details about it?


----------



## Filburt

It doesn't appear as though there is much information available, other than what is on the site, which is of cursory detail. Nice timing, though...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the Pico seems like it will be an improved Total BitHead - something for portable and transportable use, and even for the office. but it isn't meant to replace or serve as a home rig - although i'm sure for those on a budget and who use a computer based setup, it can serve this purpose as well._

 

I'm interested to read what your basis is for claiming this.


----------



## 3x331m

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm RSA just announced "The Predator" Amp/dac too. Anyone have any details about it?_

 

There's a rumor that the Predator is a Pico killer. 

 yeah... They both are not released.


----------



## Ricey20

this is going to get interesting thats for sure


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *3x331m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a rumor that the Predator is a Pico killer. 

 yeah... They both are not released. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Of course. Cmoy + Alien DAC will kill Pico


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Filburt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm interested to read what your basis is for claiming this._

 

The way that I read it was that the Pico is a much improved small form factor combination USB DAC and headphone amp. That's certainly true but I don't think that any relative comparison is worthwhile since the Pico as 3x the cost and clearly aimed at a different target.


----------



## kramer5150

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the Pico seems like it will be an improved Total BitHead - something for portable and transportable use, and even for the office. but it isn't meant to replace or serve as a home rig - although i'm sure for those on a budget and who use a computer based setup, it can serve this purpose as well._

 

I dont know about that... Apogee and DA-10 owners were really impressed by the un-cased prototype at the bay area regional.


----------



## Podster

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *3x331m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a rumor that the Predator is a Pico killer. 

 yeah... They both are not released. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Do tell 3X3? Is this per RSA himself based on his Beta testing on the Pico/Dac he was sent by Pico
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Compitition is a good thing though


----------



## Icarium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *3x331m* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a rumor that the Predator is a Pico killer. 

 yeah... They both are not released. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'd be shocked if the Predator is as sophisticated and well-executed as the Pico from a technical standpoint. Especially with the battery-life that is being advertised. The Pico is min-maxed as far as performance/size/what is going into it as goes. There is no wasted space, no fat. And the parts/design choices (Amp parts/implementation/DAC chip/USB->I2S direct) are impeccable... 

 Both not released? Putting them both in that same category is silly. The Pico has actually been seen/touched and heard. The Predator is vaporware at this point. Yes they are both not released, but the community at least has some idea of how the Pico performs. We have pretty exact specifications and we know exactly what's going into one and we know what it looks like. With the Predator we have proposed battery life and lower noise floor than 2 of his 3 portable amps (Depending on stage of development these two factoids will probably be obsoleted as well), i.e. nothing to go on.

 So, personally I don't think anything gets interesting as I don't see how there can be a contest unless you are only loosely looking for an amp/dac combo in the timeframe of 6 months to a year. While I myself am looking forward to getting my Pico November. A product that I have seen/heard/held in my hands, as have others. A product that I know is actually near production.


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the Pico seems like it will be an improved Total BitHead - something for portable and transportable use, and even for the office. but it isn't meant to replace or serve as a home rig - although i'm sure for those on a budget and who use a computer based setup, it can serve this purpose as well._

 

Did you just compare the Pico to...the _Bithead_? Dude, the Bithead is known to have a technically inferior DAC chip in the PCM2702. And as nice as it is as a USB DAC it still just isn't that great. I'm sure the WM8740 runs rings around that PCM2702, and in the Pico it upsamples to 24/96! On this spec alone the Pico should have SQ somewhere between the Arcam DiVA CD73 and CD192! That level of performance out of a laptop should bring lots of sonic goodness.


----------



## speedbird151

SQ between the CD73 and CD192? Wow that would really be a killer amp. Wonder how it would compare to the CD36. Looking forward to the main event: Pico vs Predator vs Move vs D1mod.


----------



## Filburt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The way that I read it was that the Pico is a much improved small form factor combination USB DAC and headphone amp. That's certainly true but I don't think that any relative comparison is worthwhile since the Pico as 3x the cost and clearly aimed at a different target._

 

I understand that was the basic comparison, but it seemed like a pretty uncharitable and prejudicial one considering the relative sophistication of the Pico design.


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *speedbird151* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_SQ between the CD73 and CD192? Wow that would really be a killer amp. Wonder how it would compare to the CD36. Looking forward to the main event: Pico vs Predator vs Move vs D1mod._

 

Um...let's compare the DAC modules in the CD73 and CD192 first. The CD73 uses one WM8740 for both channels and doesn't upsample at all. The CD192 uses four (two per channel) and upsamples to 24/192. The FMJ CD36 handily crushes the CD192 with _eight_ WM8740s (four per channel in dual differential) and upsampling to 24/192. And let's not forget that these CDPs aren't just their DACs either, they have slightly different transports and power supplies and use other tweaks to increase sonic performance (like "Mask of Silence" and a trilaminate Acousteel chassis on the FMJ CD36).


----------



## speedbird151

lol, i guess it wasn't such a good comparison. if we could only get the guys from arcam to build a amp/dac. the only problem is that it would cost a bundle.


----------



## vcoheda

eh.

 TBH or TBH-type products. i was not really making a direct comparison. merely pointing out the market that this thing would most likely appeal to.


----------



## Filburt

In other news, I received a prototype today to test. So far, very impressive performance...


----------



## powertoold

Impressive in terms of DAC? Amp? More details pleaseee!


----------



## Ricey20

do you have any other amps to compare with? any sound cards?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Filburt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In other news, I received a prototype today to test. So far, very impressive performance..._

 

You lucky S.O.B.


----------



## 909

Filburt, look forward to reading your assessment after you have spent a decent amount of time with the pico.


----------



## Filburt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *powertoold* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Impressive in terms of DAC? Amp? More details pleaseee!_

 

Actually, both. Initially I was testing the DAC, but decided to also test it with sound card input and the amp itself sounds great with my K701. High detail, wide soundstage, and overall balanced presentation. The DAC itself is fantastic, and compliments the amp well. It has a nice lush, multi-layered and detailed presentation with much better imaging than my sound card and a variety of other sources I have in my house. Overall, I'd characterise it as much more 'hi-fi' than the dreck I've apparently suffered with in my computer ^-^

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_do you have any other amps to compare with? any sound cards?_

 

I have my Mini^3 and some PINTs I built handy, and compared it with a Sigmatel and a Soundblaster that I modified. My soundcard is alright, but the Pico does a pretty nice job of embarrassing it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I don't have an AE-2 immediately handy, but the Pico strikes me as the better amp of the two from what I remember of how it compared to my other amps. Looking at the board, it appears to be an improved circuit, so perhaps this is unsurprising.

 More impressions to come as I spend more time with it.


----------



## Ricey20

how does it compare to the Mini3 since i have one too?


----------



## Filburt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how does it compare to the Mini3 since i have one too? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Honestly, I like both amps a lot. My preference would probably just be based on type of music and mood for the most part. I just received it this afternoon, so I haven't really compared the two extensively, but my impression so far as been the Mini3 has a bit more aggressive presentation. It may be worth keeping in mind, though, that I'm deep into DIY nowadays so (a) I don't consider the Mini^3 low-end, and I rank it highly amongst portables period, and (b) since I built my own, it means I also get to maximise performance as I please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## kramer5150

Justin...

 IMHO you really have a groundbreaking design. A Very sophisticated, pro piece of gear scaled down with the latest in SMT miniaturization technology. Justin, part of my christmas bonus is already reserved for a Pico... LOL


----------



## 909

Filburt another update... more details?


----------



## kramer5150

Dude!! Bust out that Nikon DSLR and post some PICS (If Justin says is OK)!!!


----------



## viggen

This seems like a good unit to use to receive output from PC to feed into my amp, a greatech muvac with 50kohm input impedance. Will there be any problems using the pico in this fashion? Audio degradation?


----------



## recstar24

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *viggen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This seems like a good unit to use to receive output from PC to feed into my amp, a greatech muvac with 50kohm input impedance. Will there be any problems using the pico in this fashion? Audio degradation?_

 

Highly doubt it. Most headphone amps can operate really well as preamps. Headphone amps can succeed as preamps to feed power amps because of their low output impedance, current drive capabilties, and low noise requirements. The amp portion of the pico appears to be a pretty power driver, and knowing justin and his past work, the noise and distortion would be very low, which are qualities that make great preamps. With my pico, I will eventually probably just use it to feed whatever power amp I may end up getting, and using the DAC as a source for a speaker rig.


----------



## Filburt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Filburt another update... more details? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hmm, if you could give me some idea of what you'd like to know about, I might be able to give more directed answers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *viggen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This seems like a good unit to use to receive output from PC to feed into my amp, a greatech muvac with 50kohm input impedance. Will there be any problems using the pico in this fashion? Audio degradation?_

 

If it makes you feel any better, it's relatively typical for sources to have two stages worth of op-amps between the converter and the output, as one is used in the LPF and one is used as a buffer. So, the principal difference is just that a volume control is present. I tested it as a source and it still sounded great ^-^


----------



## Edwood

I'm listening to a Pico prototype right now with my Fujitsu P1610 and Foobar2000 setup. Very impressive. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am listening with my UE Triple.Fi 10 Pro's. 

 The Pico and it's USB DAC is very much worthwhile of the hype thus far. 

 As for physical size, it's right between the size of the RSA Hornet and Tomahawk, perhaps a little closer in size to the Tomahawk. They are nearly the same length, just has a little more "girth". I already knew this since I had to keep in mind the size when drawing the rendering for Justin, but holding one in your hand is another experience altogether.

 If it wasn't for my K1000's (I haven't tried them with the Pico yet, but I'll sure try them for fun.) The Pico sounds like it could replace my full size home rig. 

 -Ed


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 If it wasn't for my K1000's (I haven't tried them with the Pico yet, but I'll sure try them for fun.) The Pico sounds like it could replace my full size home rig. 

 -Ed_


----------



## GreatDane

Thanks for making the wait even harder Ed.
 lol

 I gave the Pico a quick listen at a DC meet a while back and it sounded very good with Justin's 650. 

 After getting sucked into building a decent home rig I think I could be happy with a compact setup such as laptop>Pico..as crazy as that sounds.


----------



## Edwood

Another nice feature is that when you plug into the analog line in on the front, it mutes the internal DAC, no annoying loud pop or anything weird. So you can pretty much leave the USB plugged in and if you wanted to quickly plug in an analog source from an iPod or another DAP, you can do so at will. Makes A/B comparing the Pico's USB DAC with other sources quick and easy. Nice touch. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, great news for IEM users. No loud "thump" sound when you switch the power off. It's pretty quiet little thump when turning off.

 -Ed


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another nice feature is that when you plug into the analog line in on the front, it mutes the internal DAC, no annoying loud pop or anything weird. So you can pretty much leave the USB plugged in and if you wanted to quickly plug in an analog source from an iPod or another DAP, you can do so at will. Makes A/B comparing the Pico's USB DAC with other sources quick and easy. Nice touch. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, great news for IEM users. No loud "thump" sound when you switch the power off. It's pretty quiet little thump when turning off.

 -Ed_

 

these are the nice "little" touches that make some amps more preferable than others...thanks for the updates, ed.


----------



## Voltron

Thanks for the additional details Ed! I am very excited to get my hands on a Pico, and will be one of the fortunate few next weekend at the Florida meet who can compare the Pico and Predator head-to-head. Should be very interesting. I expect that the comparison will drive that impressions thread through the roof. I am also bringing the current Xin line-up of Micro, Mini and Reference, so that should provide some nice comparos also.


----------



## Edwood

Did a little Pico-Meet, so to speak. The Pico did quite well compared to my Stello DA220 and with full sized cans like my R10's. Since the DAC section costs $200, that would make it 1/6 the cost of the Stello DAC, and at nearly 95% the sound quality. For the very short time I compared the two, the Stello DA220 sounds a little better (a few song comparisons, the treble decay and detail is a little more defined and in focus. Their soundstages are nearly identical. Very large and wide. However, the Pico has a lower noise floor than my Stello DA220, which is a boon for highly efficient cans like Grados and IEM's. 

 Given the price difference, if I didn't have the K1000's the Stello DA220 would be up on the FS Chopping block, along with my RME HDSP 9632 which would be useless as a transport since I would be using USB instead.

 Justin is still tweaking a few things, I'll have to wait until the final production Pico's are out and about. Along with the rest of you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did a little Pico-Meet, so to speak. The Pico did quite well compared to my Stello DA220 and with full sized cans like my R10's. Since the DAC section costs $200, that would make it 1/6 the cost of the Stello DAC, and at nearly 95% the sound quality. For the very short time I compared the two, the Stello DA220 sounds a little better (a few song comparisons, the treble decay and detail is a little more defined and in focus. Their soundstages are nearly identical. Very large and wide. However, the Pico has a lower noise floor than my Stello DA220, which is a boon for highly efficient cans like Grados and IEM's. 

 Given the price difference, if I didn't have the K1000's the Stello DA220 would be up on the FS Chopping block, along with my RME HDSP 9632 which would be useless as a transport since I would be using USB instead.

 Justin is still tweaking a few things, I'll have to wait until the final production Pico's are out and about. Along with the rest of you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed_

 

thanks for the continued updates, ed. as good as your stello? if it weren't for my k1000 i might think about using the pico full-time, too.

 have you used it as a pre-amp yet? i'll be DAC-less while my opus is being built...and was thinking of using the pico from my imac -> sig.30. would it fit in this scenario?


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks for the continued updates, ed. as good as your stello? if it weren't for my k1000 i might think about using the pico full-time, too._

 

Sound quality-wise, nearly as good. But feature-wise, not so much, but we're comparing a portable to a full featured DAC with multiple inputs and both balanced and unbalanced outputs, so really not a fair comparison there.

  Quote:


 have you used it as a pre-amp yet? i'll be DAC-less while my opus is being built...and was thinking of using the pico from my imac -> sig.30. would it fit in this scenario? 
 

I no longer have the Prototype Pico in my possession, so I haven't been able to use it as a preamp for speakers. Perhaps Iron_Dreamer can test it out that way.

 -Ed


----------



## Gregious

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the additional details Ed! I am very excited to get my hands on a Pico, and will be one of the fortunate few next weekend at the Florida meet who can compare the Pico and Predator head-to-head. Should be very interesting. I expect that the comparison will drive that impressions thread through the roof. I am also bringing the current Xin line-up of Micro, Mini and Reference, so that should provide some nice comparos also._

 

Voltron,

 Would love to hear your impressions of the Pico vs. Reference (and hopefully Predator) sound quality after the meet when you have time. I have both the Pico and Reference on order. I was considering building up a home rig in addition to portable. Considering the recent advances in portable I'm now thinking I might just reach the quality I need with just a portable doubling as home. Then I can pour the rest of my money (like I have any) into upgrading my speaker system. If the Pico is everything it seems to be I might just get out of my Reference order and take one person out of line for all the poor souls waiting for that amp!

 Many Thanks,

 Greg


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Filburt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, if you could give me some idea of what you'd like to know about, I might be able to give more directed answers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

nothing specific... at the time interested to read more impressions... 

 but since then they have been flowing.


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Well, I am definitely enjoying my time with the Pico prototype unit. To my ears it is slightly more transparent sounding than the Apogee mini-DAC, when both are used as independant DAC/amp units. The Pico's soundstage is a bit more open than the Apogee's, which is somewhat closed-in by my standards. However, more significant is the improved instrument separation and clarity which give the Pico a greater sense of trueness to the recording.

 I have also used the Pico to source/pre-amp my powered monitors, and it has more than answered the call to duty. The difference in sound as compared to the Apogee in the same role is much like that when using headphones, however the soundstaging change is more immediately noticeable.

 I don't own any portable amps, and have only ever owned a PINT for a while before it kicked the bucket. The Pico, while using the same AD8397 opamp as the PINT I once had, does not posess the somewhat overly forward sound it did. Just as when used as a source, the Pico is quite neutral as an amp, while allowing dynamics to come through in their naturally lively form, which my iRiver's somewhat dull-sounding headphone jack does not.

 A note on the Pico's gain levels: the internal DAC puts out a louder level than my iRiver or a 5G iPod, and as such when using the internal DAC, low gain is quite sufficient for even high-impedance headphones (like my modified 370-ohm DT831's). However, I found the usable amount of turn in the volume knob sufficient to dial in the right level for my E500's. I'd probably only ever use the high-gain mode for driving high-impedance headphones from a low-ouput portable device, and even then, perhaps only when in need of quite high volumes.

 I'd say that the Pico renders devices like the Apogee, DAC1, and the like relatively moot for headphone enthusiasts who can live with its' feature set. With sound quality in the league of, if not beyond the aforementioned devices and their brethren, in a portable device at least one-tenth their size, and all at a significantly lower price, how could it not? Of course such devices still have a place for those that need SPDIF, AES/EBU inputs, or balanced output. But for the majority of headphone geeks, I think the Pico is all one needs until he or she decides to put in a multi-$k class-A discrete home system. And even then, the Pico would still be a reliable and potent traveling companion. 

 Bravo, Justin! I can't wait to have the finished Pico.


----------



## Asr

Wow! I read your post as if hanging onto every word! My anticipation factor just shot up by 200%! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks for the excellent review of the prototype!


----------



## Filburt

Iron Dreamer has described what I've found in a much better way than I probably could have. As indicated, I've found its performance obviates the need for a considerable array of alternative sources, so long as one has a servient USB port available. Although, I'll try to elaborate more when I have some time ^-^


----------



## chouman

I don't know if I can handle the anticipation. But it looks like from these impressions so far that the Pico will pwn my current setup. Now, only question is whether or not to keep my SR-71 because I really do love its sound. Then again, according to the disturbing trend thread, perhaps I'll have to ditch it, and save up later on for maybe an HR-2 and then maybe an independent dac like the Benchmark or others.

 Sorry to my wallet indeed!


----------



## GreatDane

Great read Iron_Dreamer. I predict many portable amps will be FS after the Pico makes its way into our greedy hands.


----------



## itsborken

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great read Iron_Dreamer. I predict many portable amps will be FS after the Pico makes its way into our greedy hands. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What, I could hear a Xin portable in the privacy of my own home in my lifetime? I must be dreaming


----------



## pearljam5000

2 questions
 1.after reading many threads,i came to the conclusion that no portable will ever sound as good as a home amp,so is the Pico going to be the first portable amp that will sound as good a a home amp?
 2.is it possible to only use the DAC or only the amp?or will they always work togheter?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pearljam5000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2 questions
 1.after reading many threads,i came to the conclusion that no portable will ever sound as good as a home amp,so is the Pico going to be the first portable amp that will sound as good a a home amp?
 2.is it possible to only use the DAC or only the amp?or will they always work togheter?_

 

To try to answer your first question, portable amps can sound excellent, especially when driving fairly easy loads like most IEM's. In some cases a portable might even be a better option with IEM's because most of the newer portable designs keep the high sensitivity of IEM's in mind so have extremely low noise floors. 

 The waters get murkier when you start trying to drive more demanding headphones like the Senn HD6XX's or AKG K701's with a portable. Will a portable drive these headphones? Well yeah, you'll probably get sufficient volume and it may even sound acceptable but I don't think any portable will have the ability to drive them to their potential. Portables are about just that, portability and convenience, they're not miracle workers though, there is a reason there are dedicated home amplifiers. The portable market has definitely progressed over the past little while though, my AE-2 was incredibly good with my E500's. In many ways it reminded me of the GS-1 I owned but I have no illusions, the AE-2 is not a GS-1, nor should it be expected to be. 

 So I guess my answer to your first question is, it depends. It comes down to what headphones you're using, what you're looking to get out them, budget and what in the long run you're trying to achieve.

 As for your second question, the Pico is designed first as an amp, it can be bought in amp only form and even when the DAC option is added it can still be used as an stand-alone amp. The DAC is meant to work in conjunction with with the amp although I've seen the possibility of it being used as a separate DAC utilizing the headphone out as a variable output to another amplifier mentioned but I'm still not quite sure how well that would work.


----------



## elnero

Oh and thanks, Filburt, Edwood and Iron Dreamer for your posts with further impressions using prototypes. I'm so glad to hear that the Pico seemingly is meeting expectations and matching the listening impressions from meets but I have to say these posts are also driving me crazy because of the wait.


----------



## chouman

Here's a question.

 What headphones do people plan to use who are ordering the Pico?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a question.

 What headphones do people plan to use who are ordering the Pico?_

 

It's probably obvious in my case but nonetheless, Shure E500's for me.


----------



## chouman

So here's the part I'm not sure about. This type of product should be used with a laptop or computer to make the most of the dac section. But at home, I don't necessarily want to listen with my UM2s, would it be better for me to invest in a home amp for my HD600s then? But the dac is just too good to pass up. Poor poor wallet. I should be in the first batch so maybe I'll go ahead and let my ears decide.


----------



## kramer5150

Thanks Doods for the impressions.

 IIRC:

 Filburt=K701, PK1, PK2
 Iron Dreamer = Some exotic leather covered AT, whos model # I forget
 Edwood = Not really sure

 If you fellas are ever in the ebay area please feel free to PM me if you wanted to meet up, AND Justin OK's it first!! I know a few members who would love to demo before buying. We could get together for a little Laptop-Pico meet. I'll bring the Grados
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ,and A250. I'm curious how it performs as a source for my PPA.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So here's the part I'm not sure about. This type of product should be used with a laptop or computer to make the most of the dac section. But at home, I don't necessarily want to listen with my UM2s, would it be better for me to invest in a home amp for my HD600s then? But the dac is just too good to pass up. Poor poor wallet. I should be in the first batch so maybe I'll go ahead and let my ears decide._

 

Letting your own ears decide is always a good idea. That said don't think a decent home amp would hurt the HD600's any. You could always look into using the Pico's headphone out as a variable output to another amp, I seem to remember it being mentioned as a possibility by some other members but I'm not sure on the specifics of how well it would work. Maybe some other members with more technical experience could chime in?


----------



## grawk

Many of the popular dacs have variable outs controlled by a volume knob. It's looked on as a feature by many of our esteemed members. This really isn't any different from that. I hooked the pico up to the balancing inputs on my tooleaudio balanced mosfet amplifier at the baltimore meet, and was quite pleased with the results. It's not unusual for dacs to have IC opamps in the signal path, even with very high end options.


----------



## Edwood

90% of the time my Pico will be used with my Triple.Fi's.

 9% of the time, R10's. 

 1% of the time, whatever cans that tickle my fancy.

 -Ed


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_90% of the time my Pico will be used with my Triple.Fi's.

 9% of the time, R10's. 

 1% of the time, whatever cans that tickle my fancy.

 -Ed_

 

R10's and Pico!


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a question.

 What headphones do people plan to use who are ordering the Pico?_

 

For me, pretty much just the Audio-Technica ATH-ES7 for my laptop @work rig. (And some kind of IEMs in the future, tentatively considering the Westone 3.) Although I'm sure I'll be checking it out via K701 on my home rig too.


----------



## akwok

I'm looking forward to using the Pico in my home (headphone) rig, with HD650s.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a question.

 What headphones do people plan to use who are ordering the Pico?_

 

All of mine.(check my profile)


----------



## powertoold

Blah, I think it's time to save up for the Pico!


----------



## jilgiljongiljing

Think I should start saving up as well. Seeing that the DAC section would be better than the EMU as well. But its not pocket change for me, have to really save up


----------



## kugino

sr-60s. i'll be using it more for the DAC (out of my macbook) but the amp is better than my headphone out, too.


----------



## siddiquehanif

I will be using the PICO with Audio Technica ATH-AD 2000 headphones and laptop as source.


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pearljam5000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2 questions
 1.after reading many threads,i came to the conclusion that no portable will ever sound as good as a home amp,so is the Pico going to be the first portable amp that will sound as good a a home amp?
 2.is it possible to only use the DAC or only the amp?or will they always work togheter?_

 

1) I'm hardly a portable amp fanatic, but the Pico is the best performing of those I've heard at length. Of course, there are so many out there, it's hard to say whether or not the Pico is the FIRST portable unit which could sound as good as many home amps.

 2) The amp can be used alone via the input jack on the front of the amp. Therefore it can work as an amp-only from any analog source. The DAC uses the amp as an output stage, therefore the two cannot be decoupled, so when using the DAC you are always also using the amp.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's a question.

 What headphones do people plan to use who are ordering the Pico?_

 

I think it will become the centerpiece of my system, so it will be used with all the headphones in my signature/profile eventually. Of course the most use will be with the L3000. The only headphones I've not used the prototype with so far are the KSC75 and DT531.


----------



## Voltron

The first assembled Pico pic:






 Wow, is that hawt!


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The first assembled Pico pic:






 Wow, is that hawt!_

 

Ohhh yes! That is definitely hawt!!!


----------



## Gregious

wow what a great looking amp. Are those feet attached to the bottom or is it just sitting on something for effect?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gregious* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow what a great looking amp. Are those feet attached to the bottom or is it just sitting on something for effect?_

 

Looks to me to be the same type of feet my AE-2 had.


----------



## justin w.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gregious* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow what a great looking amp. Are those feet attached to the bottom or is it just sitting on something for effect?_

 

The feet will be put in the shipping box separately, they are optional.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gregious* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow what a great looking amp. Are those feet attached to the bottom or is it just sitting on something for effect?_

 

Justin said the rubber feet are included in the box but optional, so I have to assume they are those stick-on kind. I usually skip the feet for streamlining, and always have a case on my iMod but to each his/her own.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The feet will be put in the shipping box separately, they are optional._

 

Really nice, Justin. Will we be able to see it in its final form this weekend?


----------



## Gregious

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The feet will be put in the shipping box separately, they are optional._

 

Nice! Thanks, Justin. Was just thinking about the benefits of feet or not.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really nice, Justin. Will we be able to see it in its final form this weekend?_

 

From the paid thread:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






 No, Edwood has not gotten THIS good at CG. It's a real assembled Pico! (Feet will be separate in the box, just used for photo). It looks even better in person, it's very difficult for me to capture the finish with my photography. Anyone at the Florida meet this weekend will be able to see it. Another note, this is also the original knob the new knob is still in the works.

 The front panel is less than the size of 2 quarters_


----------



## boomana

Sweet.


----------



## wakeride74

droooool


----------



## kugino

nice, justin! man, those mini input jacks look huge! i guess it's a testament to how small the PICO is.


----------



## n_maher

If my math is correct it's less than 2" wide.


----------



## thrice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If my math is correct it's less than 2" wide. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

MUST......NOT...RUIN THREAD.....WITH SEXUAL......INNUENDO......MUST ........RESIST.


 GAH!

 Justin, that looks sexy as hell. Can't wait to hear it this weekend.


----------



## Voltron

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thrice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_MUST......NOT...RUIN THREAD.....WITH SEXUAL......INNUENDO......MUST ........RESIST._

 

Wide?


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Voltron* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wide? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Clearly he's knee deep in preparation for the meet and not exactly of a right mind. Either that or he's been sniffing too much solder lately.


----------



## thrice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Clearly he's knee deep in preparation for the meet and not exactly of a right mind. Either that or he's been sniffing too much solder lately. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 A little from column A a little from column 3


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Wow, it's becoming a thread from .....that other place! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well the proto is back to Justin to continue its' barnstorming tour. Now I just have to sit back and wait for my bronze beauty to show up!


----------



## fkclo

Just want to catch up on this thread. I pre-ordered a Pico quite some time ago but have heard nothing from Justin regarding payment. 

 Any one can tell me if Pico is already shipping ? Am I missing the boat ?

 Thanks in advance.

 F. Lo


----------



## itsborken

Send your email address to justin at headamp dot com if he doesn't have it already. Other than that I believe he'll contact you when payment is due. According to his preorder list on his website he needs yours.


----------



## gregeas

I was told the enclosures are arriving very soon, which should mean the amps follow shortly thereafter... I asked Justin for an invoice and sent my money earlier this week.


----------



## FreeBlues

Wow, c'mon, hurry up already!


----------



## Juventas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, not possible to tell the difference. I added a regulator inside the amp for when the DC adapter is plugged in_

 

This is good news! I was worried that I would be plugging/unplugging the AC just to get the best performance on my desktop.

 Considering I would never use the Pico portably (it could be enormous with no battery) don't need any inputs or outputs other than the USB and headphone, is there a better ~$500 solution for me?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Juventas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is good news! I was worried that I would be plugging/unplugging the AC just to get the best performance on my desktop.

 Considering I would never use the Pico portably (it could be enormous with no battery) don't need any inputs or outputs other than the USB and headphone, is there a better ~$500 solution for me?_

 

IMO, considering what Justin is trying to achieve with the DAC and knowing how good the AE-2 is I'd say the Pico is easily the best option on the market.


----------



## pearljam5000

so the amp section of the Pico is basicaly an AE-2?


----------



## whatisthematrixx

from what I have gathered reading posts, the amp section is slightly better and more refined than the AE-2, but I haven't heard either so take that with a grain of salt


----------



## Edwood

Looks like the first production Pico has officially landed!

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f38/he...7/index31.html







 -Ed


----------



## Bozz_Keren

very nice, please give us impressions


----------



## HardHeadCase

So tell me,,,if I were looking at buying a Scott-Nixon UFO TD and a Headamp GS-1 to accompany my Laptop, which will be my music server,,,,,,do you Iron_Dreamer or Anyone else think the Pico will make me smile just the same? I have K701s and PK1s and am looking to get some 650s down the road. Seems like the Pico has the perfect functionality that I need for a rig like this and it will even fit in my laptop bag, unlike the larger rig. Just don't wanna come up short listening to my 701s and wishing I had spent more money. I am such a dog chasing my tail.,,,LOL


----------



## fkclo

I haven't heard the Pico yet, but would than throwing a K701 to it may be a bit too much. I am sure its DAC will be impressive though.

 F. Lo


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

My guess is that K701 or HD650 dreams will depend on how loudly you listen, as a portable like the Pico only has so much voltage headroom to work with. The DAC is good enough that if you feel you need more headroom, you could just run it into an AC powered amp, and still have the Pico alone for times when portability matters most.


----------



## kamal007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My guess is that K701 or HD650 dreams will depend on how loudly you listen, as a portable like the Pico only has so much voltage headroom to work with. The DAC is good enough that if you feel you need more headroom, you could just run it into an AC powered amp, and still have the Pico alone for times when portability matters most._

 

since you'll be getting the pico, could you compare them with your apogee minidac? and did you build the σ11 power supply yourself?

 Thanks


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kamal007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_since you'll be getting the pico, could you compare them with your apogee minidac? and did you build the σ11 power supply yourself?

 Thanks_

 

I certainly will put the comparison out there, which I've already done to an extent in this thread. The power supply is not built by me, rather by Vince Vaughn (i.e. n_mahler).


----------



## kamal007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I certainly will put the comparison out there, which I've already done to an extent in this thread. The power supply is not built by me, rather by Vince Vaughn (i.e. n_mahler)._

 

Thanks, ill wait for the review.


----------



## HardHeadCase

I have seen people mention the Pico amp section is simular to the AE-2. Does anyone out there know how much power is output? 1/2 watt?,,,300mw? I find it strange no one has mentioned it. I hope its 500mw like the AE-2.


----------



## wakeride74

Hot Damn!!!!! This thing is smokin hot!

 Just got mine in the mail and have been listening for all of 20 minutes going back and forth between this and the Hornet as a stand alone amp (I will try the DAC when I get home). All I can say is Justin has really outdone himself and this is a huge accomplishment in the world of headphone hifi and portable hifi.

 I really want some time to dedicate to it before I give any conclusive impressions but initially I would say the amp section has combined things that I love about the Hornet and Lisa together. The bass is strong but super tight like the Lisa. Background details are brought forward as the Lisa does but obviously to a lesser degree, let's face it the Lisa is awesome in this regard. The vocals are similar to how the sound with the Hornet but seem to be more liquid... still transparent but a smoother transparency.

 I want to spend more time with it to give more impressions but I am super happy with what I am hearing straight out of the box and the amp looks beautiful. I should also note that the Hornet and Lisa are two of my absolute favorite amps in the sub $600 range.


----------



## chouman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hot Damn!!!!! This this is smokin hot!

 Just got mine in the mail and have been listening for all of 20 minutes going back and forth between this and the Hornet as a stand alone amp (I will try the DAC when I get home). All I can say is Justin has really outdone himself and this is a huge accomplishment in the world of headphone hifi and portable hifi.

 I really want some time to dedicate to it before I give any conclusive impressions but initially I would say the amp section has combined things that I love about the Hornet and Lisa together. The bass is strong but super tight like the Lisa. Background details are brought forward as the Lisa does but obviously to a lesser degree, let's face it the Lisa is awesome in this regard. The vocals are similar to how the sound with the Hornet but seem to be more liquid... still transparent but a a smoother transparency.

 I want to spend more time with it to give more impressions but I am super happy with what I am hearing straight out of the box and the amp looks beautiful. I should also note that the Hornet and Lisa are two of my absolute favorite amps in the sub $600 range._

 

congrats! just wait til you hear the dac section!


----------



## flashbak

I agree, the DAC section is wonderful


----------



## Edwood

Seeing as how this is the unofficial official Pico thread I'll post pics here as well.

 Here it is with my Fujitsu P1610 Tiny Tablet PC.





















 Matches all my gear which are usually a combo of black and silver. Although I'm thinking it would look better in a single color.

 -Ed


----------



## jamato8

Does anyone know what is the smallest laptop this type of computer that has a USB output? I would like to get something really small that would have USB but be very transportable. A 6 inch screen would be fine with me. It would be great with the Pico and in my field photography.


----------



## TR909

try asus eeepc. 7'' screen with usb out...


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TR909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_try asus eeepc. 7'' screen with usb out..._

 

I saw that and it is interesting but no real storage and it weighs 2.2 pounds or a kilo. Maybe a 2.5 external hard drive for storage but I wonder if there isn't something smaller with real storage.


----------



## justin w.

Take a look at the OQO Model 2

oqo


----------



## TR909

How much storage are you looking for? With the Asus, you can start with 8gb internal SSD version($500) and add an 8-16gb SDHC card as well as 1.8 external drive or usb flash drive. I look at it more as an external hub than a full fledged laptop but for the price it's pretty fantastic. Well, *ahem* anyway, at least _I'm_ hoping it's fantastic as I plan on mating it with my "god-I-hope- it-get's-here-soon" gray pico with clear knob!


----------



## Icarium

My friend has two generations of the OQO that thing gets ridiculously expensive. It's 3k with a flash harddrive and a 3 year accidental damage warranty. It's pretty sexy. I can't justify it though for myself but he works in IT and uses it for work all the time.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Take a look at the OQO Model 2

oqo_

 

I remember you showing me that in Florida. Sell a few more Picos and buy yourself one. It would look great with an all black Pico next to it.


----------



## jamato8

Thanks Justin, that does look interesting. 

 How much storage? As much as I can get. I am thinking of the two uses and would have to use external hard drives as well but for now I am thinking of a portable storage device with USB as a source for music.


----------



## wakeride74

Here's a few shots of my Pico mixed in with some other gear. I can post some better close-ups of the Pico on its own later.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I saw that and it is interesting but no real storage and it weighs 2.2 pounds or a kilo. Maybe a 2.5 external hard drive for storage but I wonder if there isn't something smaller with real storage._

 

Budget will be your real limiter here.

 My P1610 weighs 2.2lbs with the standard battery, over 2.5lbs, but less than 3lbs with the 6 cell extended battery (6 cell battery is shown in my pics.).

 I picked the P1610 because it has useable CPU power (1.2GHz Core Solo), higher resolution LCD (1280x768), and a useable keyboard (literally the smallest keyboard that is actually touch typeable). Also it's a Tablet PC, but it lacks an active digitizer which would've made it THE perfect tiny tablet for me.

 The OQO2 does have an active digitizer, but the lack of screen resolution, lack of CPU power (even though the clockspeed is higher, it's still slower), and the utter lack of battery power. You'll need the fat extended battery for any useable battery life. But it's tiny and sexy gadget.

 If you are looking into a UMPC, you should wait until after CES (Jan 7-10). The new Intel Silverthorne CPU based UMPC's will be very fast and battery efficient. It will be a significant step up in performance.

 -Ed


----------



## 909

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seeing as how this is the unofficial official Pico thread I'll post pics here as well.

 Here it is with my Fujitsu P1610 Tiny Tablet PC.






 -Ed_

 

i really like this combo. it looks fantastic Ed.


----------



## dap_pad

^^ I agree! The Pico looks really nice in that pic! Too bad I could never afford one


----------



## OptionTrader

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dap_pad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^ I agree! The Pico looks really nice in that pic! Too bad I could never afford one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I realize you are a student now but _never_ is a loooong time. Nothing in life is impossible if you want it badly enough. That applies to more than just the Pico.


----------



## dap_pad

LOL encouraging words! I guess I should reword that to: Too bad I can't afford one in the near future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but a DAC/AMP combo would be awesome, so I can use it for my laptop & DAPs.


----------



## zippy2001

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i really like this combo. it looks fantastic Ed._

 

X2

 I just received my pico today in the exact same black & silver color scheme and it looks great! I love the high gloss black body and the contrasting silver panels on the end.

 I've listened to it from my PC and iMod with my KSC75, ANC7 and e500.
 So far it has not disappointed. The sound is crystal clear, the background is extremely quiet. I can't wait to try it with some full size headphones.


----------



## Edwood

My wife commented that it looks like a tiny flask.


----------



## stewart572

Steven
 I assume the charger adaptor will work at 240V? Or will it be necessary to buy a separate adaptor to charge the battery?

 Cheers

 Stewart


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stewart572* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Steven
 I assume the charger adaptor will work at 240V? Or will it be necessary to buy a separate adaptor to charge the battery?

 Cheers

 Stewart_

 


 Hi Stewart, I recall Justin saying that he will be shipping a power pack with an adapter plug for whatever country it's going to. It can take 110 - 250V.

 I think it will look something like this, with the appropriate plug:






 Maybe someone who has received theirs can correct me if wrong.

 Steve.


----------



## Illidan

The combo of black and silver is pretty sexy.


----------



## pearljam5000

Cool,it'll be very Interesting to read your impressions of the Pico paired with the K701 and dt990 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zippy2001* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X2

 I just received my pico today in the exact same black & silver color scheme and it looks great! I love the high gloss black body and the contrasting silver panels on the end.

 I've listened to it from my PC and iMod with my KSC75, ANC7 and e500.
 So far it has not disappointed. The sound is crystal clear, the background is extremely quiet. I can't wait to try it with some full size headphones. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## Illidan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really want some time to dedicate to it before I give any conclusive impressions but initially I would say the amp section has combined things that I love about the Hornet and Lisa together. The bass is strong but super tight like the Lisa. Background details are brought forward as the Lisa does but obviously to a lesser degree, let's face it the Lisa is awesome in this regard. The vocals are similar to how the sound with the Hornet but seem to be more liquid... still transparent but a smoother transparency._

 

So how does the performance of the Pico with ue11 compare to the Hornet?


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Stewart, I recall Justin saying that he will be shipping a power pack with an adapter plug for whatever country it's going to. It can take 110 - 250V.

 I think it will look something like this, with the appropriate plug:






 Maybe someone who has received theirs can correct me if wrong.

 Steve._

 

UPDATE:

 Pico came today, it's awesome and tiny, I love it. Already sounds better than expected, instantly impressed with this thing.

 First listen was with PK1s from the HP out of my imod as I didn't have an imod cable at work. Beautiful, can't wait for the D5000s to try with it.

 It's lighter than my mobile phone and has to be heard to appreciate what it does for the sound, plenty others have described the sound more eloquently than I could, I'll just say I agree with all that's been said.

 The power pack does not come with an Aussie plug, just the USA pack. I bought a USA to AUS adapter from Jaycar for $12 but they can be had cheaper elsewhere.


----------



## stevenkelby

The Pico is silent it's true. 

 With the USB DAC it sounds flawless and almost dead silent, only the very slightest of hums when the music is paused and the volume cranked to the max. First "silent" PC source I've ever heard, apart from optical.

 Through the imod the standard background ticking of an ipod/imod is faintly audible at max power with music paused.

 The background noise during "silent" parts of any recording is massively louder than the ipod ticking anyway though. If you don't pause the music you won't hear it, no way.

 Listening to music:

 There are differences in the sound between the Pico DAC and the imod/v-cap combo. I need to listen a lot more to reach any conclusions though. I suspect there won't be a winner, just differences but I could be wrong, one may do something better than the other. These things take time to discover for sure.

 So far, both sound top shelf to me.


----------



## Fing

Mine arrived today as well, no.25 though I was no.19 in line.

 It didn't come with a UK adapter plug though it's no biggie as the charger will accept UK voltages.

 The sound is pretty good out of a PC using Foobar's Kernel Streaming and into my D5000. I can see why a lot of people like it.

 No match for my proper desktop rig, but very good for such a handy little portable solution.


----------



## Edwood

Finally got the Sennheiser 1/8" to 1/4" adapters. Been listening with my R10's and it sounds fantastic. 

 I need to upgrade my desktop rig. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


----------



## stevenkelby

I got number 23, and was #14 on the list. I don't care about that. I'm really impressed with it so far, I love it to bits. It's a little work of art. I wish I had those R10s Ed! Looking forward to the modded recabled D5000 though.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Pico is silent it's true. 

 With the USB DAC it sounds flawless and almost dead silent, only the very slightest of hums when the music is paused and the volume cranked to the max. First "silent" PC source I've ever heard, apart from optical.

 Through the imod the standard background ticking of an ipod/imod is faintly audible at max power with music paused.

 The background noise during "silent" parts of any recording is massively louder than the ipod ticking anyway though. If you don't pause the music you won't hear it, no way.

 Listening to music:

 There are differences in the sound between the Pico DAC and the imod/v-cap combo. I need to listen a lot more to reach any conclusions though. I suspect there won't be a winner, just differences but I could be wrong, one may do something better than the other. These things take time to discover for sure.

 So far, both sound top shelf to me._

 

That is an amazing statement as to the quality from the Pico's dac. Comparing it to a $1000 worth of iPod/iMod/V-cap upgrades and having a hard time picking a winner.


----------



## ilgello

Hi guys, I'm not really interested in the amp section of this little baby (planning to get something like a Darkvoice 332), but I'm looking to upgrade my beresford with something serious (desktop use), would this a good choice or a Dac 1 would make more sense ?

 Sorry for being a noob


----------



## apnk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is an amazing statement as to the quality from the Pico's dac. Comparing it to a $1000 worth of iPod/iMod/V-cap upgrades and having a hard time picking a winner._

 

Are you saying that the ipod's dac is not as good as the Pico's dac.


----------



## Icarium

Heh there's no way the ipod dac is as good as the pico dac.


----------



## jamato8

I don't see how it could be as good either, just from looking at the specs but knowing that it is well implemented. . well. . .


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Icarium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh there's no way the ipod dac is as good as the pico dac._

 

he was joking


----------



## Icarium

Ahh ;p Can never tell if people are for serious when they talk about the Imod. Not after you hear-mention how many thousands of dollars of cdp it can beat out.


----------



## jamato8

Ok, not to get off subject too much but I have never heard the Imod. Is it really good and not just talk?

 edit: Ok, I see that the newer ipods also use the Wolfson. I didn't know that. V caps are some of the best though there are some who will cast doubt on this, but what a cost. So if you have a modded ipod with a Wolfson already at use why go with a USB dac/amp? I guess one reason would be while at the computer you and plug and go and then on the walkies you got good tunes also. They should be near equal since you have a hard drive at the USB and on the ipod.


----------



## wakeride74

I've talked to digihead a lot about the iMod and V-cap combo and I trust his opinion as we seem to be in sync with what we hear from things. I believe him when he says that the iMod and Vcap combo brings portable audio to a whole new level and in our world is justified (in most cases).

 I did not go that route because in the end I felt that the cost was too great and there were too many pieces of gear to carry and connect. I've heard nothing but good things about it but I just didn't want the hassle.

 I would say anyone using a source with a optical/coax/usb would have no reason to go this route since there are so many great dacs out there but someone looking for the best of the best in a digital camera size bag could combine the iMod/Vcap and killer amp/IEM's of choice for the ultimate portable rig.


----------



## justin w.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, not to get off subject too much but I have never heard the Imod. Is it really good and not just talk?

 edit: Ok, I see that the newer ipods also use the Wolfson. I didn't know that. V caps are some of the best though there are some who will cast doubt on this, but what a cost. So if you have a modded ipod with a Wolfson already at use why go with a USB dac/amp? I guess one reason would be while at the computer you and plug and go and then on the walkies you got good tunes also. They should be near equal since you have a hard drive at the USB and on the ipod._

 

Wolfson is a company name, they make many different kinds of chips for digital audio. I think there is some confusion there because they're not as big a name as Texas Instruments or Analog Devices. The Wolfson CODECs used in iPods have no where near the performance of the best DAC chips that Wolfson offers. Texas Instruments has many chips similar to what's in the iPod, and if Apple used them nobody would say "The iPod has a Texas Instruments in it"


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wolfson is a company name, they make many different kinds of chips for digital audio. I think there is some confusion there because they're not as big a name as Texas Instruments or Analog Devices. The Wolfson CODECs used in iPods have no where near the performance of the best DAC chips that Wolfson offers. Texas Instruments has many chips similar to what's in the iPod, and if Apple used them nobody would say "The iPod has a Texas Instruments in it"_

 

Ok, thanks. I am starting to hone in on it now. I have a learning curve but it kicks in pretty quick. I wondered why an iPod would have a top of the line dac chip and of course as you state companies normally always have different levels. So when is the Pico going for dual dacs? :^)


----------



## saisunil

Is there a way to use the Pico's USB dac, other than using a computer as a source?

 I am trying to find if there is an alternate to iMod - but using a portable dac.

 Thanks


----------



## PFKMan23

Not that I can think of (unless there is some CDP with a usb out or something to that effect).


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PFKMan23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not that I can think of (unless there is some CDP with a usb out or something to that effect)._

 

If your budget allows that.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3575143-post398.html


----------



## PFKMan23

That's a computer.


----------



## jamato8

Yeah, but one with USB out and 120gb hard drive. :^)


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wakeride74* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is an amazing statement as to the quality from the Pico's dac. Comparing it to a $1000 worth of iPod/iMod/V-cap upgrades and having a hard time picking a winner._

 

I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I love the sound of the imod with v-caps and it's not that expensive when you DIY the docks and cables. Having said that, the Pico is certainly more accurate. I need to listen more before saying more. As Justin says though, I would expect the Pico to sound 
 "better" than an imod.

 Can't use a Pico portably though. (The DAC at least). I can't even use the Pico DAC in my home stereo without putting another PC there, so the imod is staying, but in front of the PC, I think I may be choosing Pico DAC over imod DAC.

 One more thing, when hooked into the charger, the Pico gives zero extra noise/hum. Can't say that for the imod, although the extra noise is at a level far below what you will hear on silent parts of source matetrial.


----------



## chouman

Do you guys listen to the Pico on low or high gain? I should listen to my HD600s on high gain, right? One headfier just claimed that music always sounds better on low gain. Always?


----------



## apnk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you guys listen to the Pico on low or high gain? I should listen to my HD600s on high gain, right? One headfier just claimed that music always sounds better on low gain. Always?_

 

That guys thinks he's know everything. He gets obsessed with one brand and talks about it like it's the best and everthing else is crap.


----------



## grawk

use your own ears. If it sounds better 1 way than another, use it that way...


----------



## apnk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_use your own ears. If it sounds better 1 way than another, use it that way..._

 

Yep, what he said ^^^


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you guys listen to the Pico on low or high gain? I should listen to my HD600s on high gain, right? One headfier just claimed that music always sounds better on low gain. Always?_

 

It shouldn't affect the sound either way (might , but shouldn't). You should use the one where you feel like you are happy with the position and sensitivity of the volume knob. If you are maxed out on low gain, switch to high. If you have barely turned it on with high gain, switch to low.

 The Rudistor amps sound better on High gain, My RPX-33 certainly did anyway.


----------



## ilgello

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ilgello* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys, I'm not really interested in the amp section of this little baby (planning to get something like a Darkvoice 332), but I'm looking to upgrade my beresford with something serious (desktop use), would this a good choice or a Dac 1 would make more sense ?
_

 

Sorry guys to come back on this, but I'm really trying to find a good DAC without having to sell my car.

 What do you think of the plico just for desktop DAC use ?

 Can I go for something better (even used) for the same price range?

 Thanks!


----------



## skullguise

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ilgello* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry guys to come back on this, but I'm really trying to find a good DAC without having to sell my car.

 What do you think of the plico just for desktop DAC use ?

 Can I go for something better (even used) for the same price range?

 Thanks!_

 

My opinion: the DAC is very nice, but you're paying a LOT to use this just as a DAC. You could spend that kind of money and get a nicer unit. I'd consider one of the NOS DAC's with USB (Paradesea, Comnstantine, etc.), a Headroom DAC unit, the DAC 1 you mention (there, you pay more for the DAC than the amp), or others. Try searching for USB DAC in the source forums....


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ilgello* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry guys to come back on this, but I'm really trying to find a good DAC without having to sell my car.

 What do you think of the plico just for desktop DAC use ?

 Can I go for something better (even used) for the same price range?

 Thanks!_

 

Man, don't go crazy, get your priorities right.

 No matter how much you spend on a car it's never going to sound as good as a great DAC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't have any specific ideas, love the Pico and have no evidence to support this, but I would suspect that $500 can buy you a used stand alone DAC that would do better than the Pico for your purposes, if your getting a better amp. Maybe a Stello DA100 or something?


----------



## HardHeadCase

www.Scott-Nixon.com

 Usb Tube DAC

 Might be a better buy for a good sounding usb DAC.


----------



## ilgello

As usual guys you are wonderful!

 I will search for a good bargain in the used usb Dacs, in the meantime read read read 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This forum is a treasure! I'm just sorry for my wallet


----------



## stewart572

Steven

 Glad to hear your Pico arrived and you're enjoying it. At present, I'm looking for a USB DAC/Amp, but it doesn't have to be portable. Desktop size will do, though smaller is no disadvantage. 

 I wonder which desktop size USB DAC/Amps you or others would think are equal in sound quality to the Pico? 
 For starters, how would it compare with Dussun T2, KingRex T20U, Meier Corda Cantate (all similar price) Lucid, Benchmark, (3-4X price)

 Cheers

 Stewart


----------



## davidw89

Why did everyone who purchased this get the DAc version? No one got the non-DAC version? er??


----------



## warrior05

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *davidw89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why did everyone who purchased this get the DAc version? No one got the non-DAC version? er??_

 

I bought the non-DAC version. Had no use for it. I love the amp on the Pico. Terrific synergy with my RS-1s. Goes great with my DT990/600 as well. And though it is a small detail, I love how there is a charging light to tell you when it is charging and when it is done.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stewart572* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Steven

 Glad to hear your Pico arrived and you're enjoying it. At present, I'm looking for a USB DAC/Amp, but it doesn't have to be portable. Desktop size will do, though smaller is no disadvantage. 

 I wonder which desktop size USB DAC/Amps you or others would think are equal in sound quality to the Pico? 
 For starters, how would it compare with Dussun T2, KingRex T20U, Meier Corda Cantate (all similar price) Lucid, Benchmark, (3-4X price)

 Cheers

 Stewart_

 

Hi Stewart,

 I love the Pico, even better than I expected.

 Sadly I have never found a DAC/AMP I'm happy with in my price range, always going for seperates, and I stopped looking, just waiting for teh Pico. I don't even know the difference between the Opera and the Cantate (anyone, just quickly?)

 I feel that there is probably no competition to the Pico, even given no size restriction. Used, there probably is, but I don't know what.

 I love the Benchmark DAC1 but that's more $$$

 I'm not the right guy to answer your question well sorry. 

 Is there anything about the Pico you don't like the idea of?


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *davidw89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why did everyone who purchased this get the DAc version? No one got the non-DAC version? er??_

 

Only 14% of Picos so far are Amp only. It's an awesome amp for $300 and if you don't need the DAC, why pay for it? Most people probably reckon that $200 for that DAC is an absolute steal and if you aren't going to use it, get it anyway as you might one day.

 If you use a PC as source and don't have an excellent DAC already, it's a no-brainer.


----------



## grawk

Given the return policy, why not try it as a dac. While you're at it, try the amp up against what you've got already...you may decide you like it better than alternatives.


----------



## Edwood

I wouldn't have a Pico if it wasn't for it's USB DAC. It's THAT good.

 And I also like the charging circuit as well very simple. Light is on when charging, Turns off when it's done.

 -Ed


----------



## saisunil

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you guys listen to the Pico on low or high gain? I should listen to my HD600s on high gain, right? One headfier just claimed that music always sounds better on low gain. Always?_

 

As a rule of thumb - low gain - is an easier animal to tame and tends to have lower noise floor and tends to be more at ease in dishing out micro-dynamics.

 Of course it all depends on the design and implementation ...
 Ultimately trust your own ears.

 Cheers
 Sunil.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skullguise* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My opinion: the DAC is very nice, but you're paying a LOT to use this just as a DAC. You could spend that kind of money and get a nicer unit. I'd consider one of the NOS DAC's with USB (Paradesea, Comnstantine, etc.), a Headroom DAC unit, the DAC 1 you mention (there, you pay more for the DAC than the amp), or others. Try searching for USB DAC in the source forums...._

 

I purchased Pico because of the DAC only, don't care about amp much.
 That's for office use, as a replacement for HR MicroDAC, home rig is furnished with DA100, which is a terrific DAC for the price, but a bit more expensive and with a much bigger footprint.


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *davidw89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why did everyone who purchased this get the DAc version? No one got the non-DAC version? er??_

 

The only reason I got a Pico was because it came with a USB DAC. I use computer as my source and it is hard to find a good DAC and an Amp for $500. Plus then you will also have to spend good money on a decent cable. Since Pico is a 1 unit solution, the 2 parts of it were tweaked to sound good with each other so they have a very nice synergy already.

 If you ever use a computer as a source, get the DAC... you will not regret it.


----------



## wakeride74

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *davidw89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why did everyone who purchased this get the DAc version? No one got the non-DAC version? er??_

 

Because a $200 DAC that sounds this good is just too hard to pass up. I do most of my listening at work with an iPod and the Pico as a amp but when I'm at home and want to listen to my PS-1 I have a very small solution that gives me big sound w/out piles of gear and cables.

 Bottom line is the Pico is a lot of bang for the buck when you consider SQ, portability, convenience, battery life and versatility.


----------



## stewart572

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Stewart,

 I love the Pico, even better than I expected.

 Sadly I have never found a DAC/AMP I'm happy with in my price range, always going for seperates, and I stopped looking, just waiting for teh Pico. I don't even know the difference between the Opera and the Cantate (anyone, just quickly?)

 I feel that there is probably no competition to the Pico, even given no size restriction. Used, there probably is, but I don't know what.

 I love the Benchmark DAC1 but that's more $$$

 I'm not the right guy to answer your question well sorry. 

 Is there anything about the Pico you don't like the idea of?_

 

Steven
 No, but sometimes miniaturisation comes at a price, eg laptop computers are considerably more expensive than desktop computers for the same performance. I was just wondering if the same might apply here.

 Cheers

 Stewart


----------



## Ricey20

just got my all black pico. First thing I said after opening the box was "Holy crap, What, its so small". The damn thing is smaller than my Mini^3 and I thought that was small already. Charged up and stuff, havent tried it out yet though. Got #20


----------



## davidw89

ah i see..computer as a source is better than an mp3 + cables..


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stewart572* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Steven
 No, but sometimes miniaturisation comes at a price, eg laptop computers are considerably more expensive than desktop computers for the same performance. I was just wondering if the same might apply here.

 Cheers

 Stewart_

 

I don't think so, I would say the opposite. The Pico is good value for the quality of it's amp and DAC. The small size is just a bonus to me.

 It may be possible to get equal or better sound quality from used separates if you get a bargain, but maybe not too. Plus it would be a hassle.


----------



## Ricey20

Ok initial impressions on the Pico I received today. After receiving it I didnt actually try it out until some 8 hours later because I knew it was going to be better than my Mini^3 but didnt think it would be THAT much better. So I drove to my GF's house (20 min drive), used a Ipod 5.5g with super cotton dock thru to my car's AUX port. 

 Firstly, question for Justin. Did you sprinkle magical fairy dust on this thing or something? The first track I listened to (j-pop ballad, ALAC) already blew me away with how good this tiny magic box sounds. My previous portable amp was a MisterX Mini^3 that also uses the AD8397 opamp used in the Pico, which is a good amp for the price, but there was ABSOLUTELY NO comparison. 

 The first thing that struck me was how clear and detailed the Pico is, I was hearing so many new things in my music it was like listening to them for the first time. I also noticed that the bass, well there was plenty of it, since the AD8397 is known to have some bass punch but the difference between the Mini3 and Pico is that the Pico's bass is VERY tight and controlled, whereas the Mini3 bass was just boomy. Also the Pico's soundstage is in another class compared to the Mini3. Another thing is that I experienced some harshness in some female vocal tracks with the mini3 but not with the Pico, everything sounded very smooth

 The entire 20 minute drive I was getting goosebumps and thinking how the heck does something this small put out this kind of sound. Even after getting to my gf's house I stayed in my car another 20 mins with my eyes closed, just listening to the music. I remembered that I gave my gf my A900s to use so I tried those and I have never heard them sound so good. Once again the detail/clarity, bass control, and soundstage just blows you away. They sounded almost, if not, just as good as when I used them with my HA5000. I havent tried the DAC yet but if just the amp section is this good and the DAC is as good as what people say, then this is one of the best spent $500 i've done in awhile. 

 Heres to you Justin, I dont know how you did it but you did and I thank you for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Gonna try this baby with the W5000s now.


----------



## flashbak

I totally agree! Justin really did do a wonderful job on this amp!


----------



## stevenkelby

Man how's the soundstage on this thing! Even with PK1s, this thing is showing me convincing instrument placement in 3D. This is with an imod and teflon v-caps. Must listen to the internal DAC more.


----------



## GreatDane

*[size=xx-large]:::::::::::[/size]* [size=xx-large]GOOD STUFF[/size]*[size=xx-large]::::::::::::[/size]*


----------



## pearljam5000

Can you elaborate? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





*[size=xx-large]:::::::::::[/size]* [size=xx-large]GOOD STUFF[/size]*[size=xx-large]::::::::::::[/size]*



_


----------



## Capunk

Pico owner, do you consider the amp as a Hi-Fi amp or Mid-Fi or Lo-Fi? 
 Can Pico substitute a full-size amp/desktop amp ?


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pico owner, do you consider the amp as a Hi-Fi amp or Mid-Fi or Lo-Fi? 
 Can Pico substitute a full-size amp/desktop amp ?_

 

I will be using my Pico as my main rig at home with my Denon D5000 and Senns HD580.


----------



## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pico owner, do you consider the amp as a Hi-Fi amp or Mid-Fi or Lo-Fi? 
 Can Pico substitute a full-size amp/desktop amp ?_

 

It can until someone else tells you differently..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You would not want to drive speakers, the K1000 or maybe the AKG 340(?) with it but almost anything else the law of diminishing returns hits real hard when going beyond this unit. But then eventually you will want to go beyond this point but by then you will have learn much more about what direction you want to take yourself. Yea, I think the Pico could satisfy me for a long while much like my headamp in the Lavry did until I got a good deal on the AT-HA5000 that I subsequently purchased. The rest is history. 

 The only reason I don't have a Pico or one on order is that at this time in my setups there really is no place for another amp. I have a real nice portable setup with a Xin Reference amp.

 I heard a beta of the Pico last July and was highly impressed with it then and I am sure the final version is even better. Then I compared it to my Xin Reference (beta) and was quite impressed.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It can until someone else tells you differently..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You would not want to drive speakers, the K1000 or maybe the AKG 340(?) with it but almost anything else the law of diminishing returns hits real hard when going beyond this unit..._

 

Nicely put. I agree.

 Last night I began to do a comparison between my Pico using the DAC and my Central Station using its DAC(coax from my Denon CDR-W1500). I did listen to a few reference tracks but I started to get too tired to really come to a final conclusion but I'd like to give the win to the Pico at this early point.

 I was using HD 650 at first,then DT-880. I found myself using Low gain with the Pico earlier during casual listening. I'm still having a difficult time believing the power and high quality sound that's coming out of this Pico.

 I then had thoughts about selling my CS because if the Pico sounds better then what's the point in keeping the CS? Active monitors that's what. I have future plans to make that pairing. I also like the combination of components that I have connected to the CS. 

 Denon CDR-W1500>CS>Aphex 204>Meier Corda Cross-1> Woo Audio 3 tube amp. I may not always have a computer with me at my sweet spot on the couch.


----------



## 1117

Is there a list of the color options available for this amp somewhere? I'd like a link, if possible.


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *1117* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a list of the color options available for this amp somewhere? I'd like a link, if possible._

 

at the top of this page there's a list of the ten most recent sponsored threads...the pico thread will give you all you need to know...


----------



## Capunk

Just by any chance, anyone own LISA III and Pico? 
 Care to give a short comparison about their amp?


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just by any chance, anyone own LISA III and Pico? 
 Care to give a short comparison about their amp?_

 

I have a LISA III XP and my Pico is on its way (departed USA last week). So, in a week's time I should be able to compare. I have set up something for quick A/B comparison.

 F. Lo


----------



## 1117

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_at the top of this page there's a list of the ten most recent sponsored threads...the pico thread will give you all you need to know..._

 

I actually had to read thru all 93 pages to find my answers, hahaha! Interesting read nonetheless!


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a LISA III XP and my Pico is on its way (departed USA last week). So, in a week's time I should be able to compare. I have set up something for quick A/B comparison.

 F. Lo_

 

Ok, so you have the L III and know the sound.. . having read about the Pico, what do you think the outcome will be and in what areas?? lol just kidding


----------



## gregeas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just by any chance, anyone own LISA III and Pico? 
 Care to give a short comparison about their amp?_

 

I have a Lisa III XP and Pico. I did some comparisons last week between my USB DAC1 outputting to the XP and the Pico. Both were driving HD650s, using Apple Lossless files via Asio. Note that my XP is the high gain version. 

 The two rigs were on a similar level, which was quite surprising. The XP had slightly fuller sound, but this might be attributed to the bass contour control on the XP. All in all the Pico does a great job driving the 650s. 

 If/when my Xin Reference arrives, I'll have a full-scale shootout and sell off the losers.


----------



## Capunk

"sell off the losers" ... that's harsh, but I will patrol FS thread at that day... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, does your XP set on high gain? and both tested with similar gain setting? and does your XP run on LLP or Battery when you do the testing?


----------



## Ricey20

so far I've only had one REALLY minor annoyance and its nitpicking mostly. Because of the size of the Pico the volume nob is very small too and since its smooth its hard to grip to turn. This is only a problem if your input plug is large (my Super Cotton Dock's Canare plug is pretty huge).


----------



## gregeas

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"sell off the losers" ... that's harsh, but I will patrol FS thread at that day... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway, does your XP set on high gain? and both tested with similar gain setting? and does your XP run on LLP or Battery when you do the testing?_

 

My XP is high gain (which makes it unusable for my e500s, BTW) and was run off battery power. I don't (yet) have the LLP. 

 I did more tests last night in which I listened closely to the bass and micro details in the highs. My test track were from Morph the Cat -- best bass album ever? -- and Clapton Unplugged. 

 Oh, this time I compared the Pico to a Transporter-->DAC1-->Lisa XP. I don't really believe in ranking performance, or giving percentages to convey differences, but let's just say that I could definitely live with the Pico driving the HD650s... It was all there. Amazing.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MrSlacker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will be using my Pico as my main rig at home with my Denon D5000_

 

You'll be happy, I am! 

 After more comparison to the imod I give the nod to the Pico. There I said it. It's close though. I don't have a PC in my pocket everywhere I listen to music though so the imod is still in-despensible (? ir-replaceable? un-disposable? I don't know, it's late)

 I don't have a big problem with the volume knob by the way, with a Canare F12 next to it I can always find a corner of the cut out and push it where I want.


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fkclo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a LISA III XP and my Pico is on its way (departed USA last week). So, in a week's time I should be able to compare. I have set up something for quick A/B comparison.

 F. Lo_

 

My Pico arrives today! Charge it to full (until LED goes off) and have a good listen (on battery only) through my single-ended HD650, recabled by RAL (just for convenience because other cans are already hooked up to other amps and I don't bother plug and unplug). 

 First impression is good. I am amazed at the power it can deliver to drive the HD650. Source is Apple lossless files played through my iMac. All are classical / audiophile recordings. 

 For the first hour - I am comparing the same music through another parallel setup - a Grace Design M902 (USB input) with analogue output to a RPX-100 which in turn driving another balanced HD650 (in Equinox cable). I did this because I think this is probably the best sound HD650 that can be derived from rig - as hence being used as a reference.

 If I tell you folks the Pico / HD650 SE is as good, or better, than the M902/RPX100/HD650 Bal I will be telling big lies. The RPX100+HD650 balance combination is simply better - in terms of controls of the bottom end, treble extension, air, proportion, dynamics, and more accurate timbre. However, I also found the Pico / HD650 a very pleasing combo - and since the amp is new, it sounds a bit bright in comparison to the RPX100. Despite this, there is enough sound imaging to keep me occupied. 

 In terms of cost : the M902/RPX100/HD650 balance is a US$5,100 setup, which is 5 times that of the Pico+HD650 RAL SE (~ US$1,000) !! 

 The writing is one the wall.

 I will be hooking up the LISA III later to see how they compares. But from my vague memory of a Benchmark DAC1 USB / LISA III XP / HD650 SE, the Pico is a tad behind, but not much. Will report further.

 F. Lo


----------



## kugino

i'm using the pico as a DAC/preamp feeding into my sig30 and listening on k1000. sound is fantastic! already noticeably punchier and tighter than the zhaolu 2.5C i was using while my opus is being built (probably not a big surprise there). but from what i recall with my previous DA100, the pico is at least on par with the DA100 as a source. i think the DA100 is a bit warmer but the soundstage, tight bass, and detail are all still there with the pico. some pics:


----------



## WindowsX

aowww.....want ones


----------



## Icarium

Just put on Sufjian's Illinois album via the Pico(headphone out)/Yamamoto combo and it is a freaking experience. Mmmm.


----------



## Voltron

Working from home today, so here is the Pico rig of the moment:


























 Love the sound from this rig and also tried E500s for awhile this morning. Too much isolation with a sick son to watch, but my work day is flying by while listening to great tunes in WAV and Real Lossless formats. The Pico is all it promised to be for me, and I am actually looking forward to a rather heinous one-day trip to NYC because I will have lots of Pico time on it.


----------



## jamato8

Does anyone notice a change in the sound when the gain is in high or low?


----------



## thrice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone notice a change in the sound when the gain is in high or low?_

 

It gets louder and softer?


----------



## blessingx

For those using the Pico as a DAC only, what volume are you using to approximate a line-level?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thrice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It gets louder and softer? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thank you, I was wondering about that. Sometimes I like a soft sound. So what does the knob on the front do that I assume you can turn? I guess my other amp with three positions is higher end since I get three sounds, soft, medium and loooud. I still wish there were more positions because sometimes even three isn't enough. Oh well I find that changing headphones can also change the sound. cool. .


----------



## elnero

Woohoo!!! Mine finally arrived! My god, this thing is TINY! I only have a few minutes on it but initial impressions are positive.


----------



## dw6928

has anyone noticed any sound signature changes once their Pico has exceeded a couple of hundred of hours? just curious.
 (mine has not).


----------



## Ricey20

since it doesnt have a normal cap like other amps i'm not expecting mine to change or "burn in"


----------



## dw6928

nor was I, just wondering. mine is on its way out to Skylab for a "review visit".


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blessingx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those using the Pico as a DAC only, what volume are you using to approximate a line-level?_

 

still working on this, but i've been using the pico at about 12 o'clock on high gain. this allows me to use my sig30 between 9-12, which is the range i like.

 will try it with they yamamoto later to see what's a good level...


----------



## wquiles

Hi folks, Newbe here!

 No, I don't own one of these beauties. I just wanted to take a brief moment to say that I got to see and hear a Pico today in person during the CES show!. 

 I got to the Sennheiser booth, and as I was looking at some of their new IEM's, I heard a guy next to me inquire about them as well, and he mentioned "something about Ultimate Ears". That picked up my interested as I took my UE10 Pros along with my Cowon iAudio7 so that I can compare "stuff" with something to use as a reference.

 He said that yes, he also had some UE's, and it turned out he also had the same UE10 Pros as I had. I then asked him if he belonged to any online forums, and he said, oh yes, head-fi. I said, what I concidence, I just joined a short while ago. He said he wanted to try the new IEM's as well, and when I asked him about what else he brought, he showed me his Pico - man, was this a surprise for me!

 It was forum member "Edwood", and it was a great coincidence to find another forum member at the Sennheiser booth today, but also to see and hear a Pico in person - Edwood was nice enough to let a total stranger try his precious Pico - thanks much dude! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Well, being a newbe I don' know much, but all I can say is that it sounded great!. The package looks/feels small, not too heavy, and it looks solid and well built. Maybe one of these days I will be able to afford one as well!

 Justin - you have a great product - keep up the good work!

 Will


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you, I was wondering about that. Sometimes I like a soft sound. So what does the knob on the front do that I assume you can turn? I guess my other amp with three positions is higher end since I get three sounds, soft, medium and loooud. I still wish there were more positions because sometimes even three isn't enough. Oh well I find that changing headphones can also change the sound. cool. ._

 

On the face of the amp, there's this circular looking thing. if you grasp it between your thumb and index finger, you can turn it, and get a continuous change in sound between no sound at all, through softer, medium, and louder. Amazing technology these amplifier thingies have.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

*wquiles*, that is seriously cool that you got to meet the (in)famous *Edwood* at CES. I'm planning to get a Pico myself some day! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*jamato8*, I don't understand. I'm looking at your join date, and the number of posts you have, and yet it seems you're a stranger to portable/home amps?


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On the face of the amp, there's this circular looking thing. if you grasp it between your thumb and index finger, you can turn it, and get a continuous change in sound between no sound at all, through softer, medium, and louder. Amazing technology these amplifier thingies have._

 

Great thanks. :^)

 Actually I was wondering if there is any change in the sound qualitiy (not necessarily good or bad but a change) with a change in the gain setting. It has been noted in other amps that this can have effect on the sound and I was wondering if any one has noted this with the Pico.


----------



## smeggy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*jamato8*, I don't understand. I'm looking at your join date, and the number of posts you have, and yet it seems you're a stranger to portable/home amps? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

He's not alone. I post very little in the amp section because my phones all go through non headphone amps. I've never owned a single dedicated phone amp, home or portable except for 'stat amps. Four of my cans are electrostatic, two are K1000s and the rest make do with my daps, preamp, integrated or ASL transformer. Mine are _all_ speaker amps.

 The Pico will, in all probability, be my first real headphone amp!


----------



## Capunk

Pico DAC user, does anyone of you using Foobar2K, ASIO and SRC upsampler plug in? 

 Does Pico natively accept 24/96 music over USB? or it only accept 16/48 then Resample it to 24/96?


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*jamato8*, I don't understand. I'm looking at your join date, and the number of posts you have, and yet it seems you're a stranger to portable/home amps? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

From what I observed, John is very knowledgeable in headphone listening and a tube guru. I respect his opinions a lot. Don't be fooled by his humble questions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 F. Lo


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *smeggy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He's not alone. I post very little in the amp section because my phones all go through non headphone amps. I've never owned a single dedicated phone amp, home or portable except for 'stat amps. Four of my cans are electrostatic, two are K1000s and the rest make do with my daps, preamp, integrated or ASL transformer. Mine are all speaker amps.

 The Pico will, in all probability, be my first real headphone amp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sweet, you have two K1000's! I would love to hook a pair up to my balanced mono amps run from Johnny's Balloon 27 preamp, fed by my Audio Note Silver Supreme balanced dac. Well anyway back to the thread. . . .


----------



## smeggy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sweet, you have two K1000's! I would love to hook a pair up to my balanced mono amps run from Johnny's Balloon 27 preamp, fed by my Audio Note Silver Supreme balanced dac. Well anyway back to the thread. . . ._

 

Hehe, I'd like to hear that myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I plan on using the Pico to run as a DAC/Pre for my power amps via my laptop, should be a blast by all accounts. If the reports are to be believed, my budget-fi system should be very pleasing indeed. I'll need time to scrape the cash together as I just bought yet another Stax 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That tiny thing will look miniscule next to my Hafler. It'll also be really cool with my mini PC.


----------



## jamato8

I bet it will work real good. Should be an extremely transparent preamp. You can't get much shorter in the signal path from a dac to a pre!


----------



## socrates63

Way to go, Gary! I think you may be the first Seattle Head-Fi'er with a Pico.


----------



## Ricey20

wow, i just tried the USB DAC of the Pico to my W5000, i am impressed. Its MUCH better than through my Auzentech X-Fi Prelude in just about every way. Going to try it as a DAC/Preamp to my HA5000 to the W5000 soon. This tiny box continues to impress me. It is very transparent, both the amp and DAC, and the soundstage, sheesh.

 Man I want one for home desktop use now. I sure hope Justin has a desktop dac/amp based off a improved Pico design (AC POWER!) made, i'd buy it in a heartbeat.


----------



## sulcata_geo

My gray Pico arrived today.
 I've listend it from iMod,I surprized the transparent sound and huge sound stage.


----------



## Icarium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Capunk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pico DAC user, does anyone of you using Foobar2K, ASIO and SRC upsampler plug in? 

 Does Pico natively accept 24/96 music over USB? or it only accept 16/48 then Resample it to 24/96?_

 

It does not accept 24/96 over usb. I am using foobar2k and asio.


----------



## Andrew Pielet

I have yet to read what the "sonic signature" of a pico sounds like. 

 I have triple-fi's, and I am torn between the Tomahawk or Pico. I only use during my commute, so a DAC is not useful to me.

 I have heard rays amps, so I understand how they sound, but I am curious about the pico w/o the DAC, what are the differences in sound to the tomahawk? more bassy? more controlled, wider SS? Which has higher highs or a sweeter midrange?

 I listen to rock, jazz, bluegrass, live recordings most of the time. 

 I will only be using it for IEMS!

 Any words from those who can explain the differences NOT similarities?

 Thanks!


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *smeggy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hehe, I'd like to hear that myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I plan on using the Pico to run as a DAC/Pre for my power amps via my laptop, should be a blast by all accounts. If the reports are to be believed, my budget-fi system should be very pleasing indeed. I'll need time to scrape the cash together as I just bought yet another Stax 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That tiny thing will look miniscule next to my Hafler. It'll also be really cool with my mini PC.




_

 

i'm currently using the pico in this fashion, as a DAC/preamp into my sig30/k1000 setup. very nice indeed.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew Pielet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have yet to read what the "sonic signature" of a pico sounds like. 

 I have triple-fi's, and I am torn between the Tomahawk or Pico. I only use during my commute, so a DAC is not useful to me.

 I have heard rays amps, so I understand how they sound, but I am curious about the pico w/o the DAC, what are the differences in sound to the tomahawk? more bassy? more controlled, wider SS? Which has higher highs or a sweeter midrange?

 I listen to rock, jazz, bluegrass, live recordings most of the time. 

 I will only be using it for IEMS!

 Any words from those who can explain the differences NOT similarities?

 Thanks!_

 

those who've heard the pico and predator say that the pico is a bit warmer and smoother than the predator. if the predator is in line with ray's other amps, then one could assume that the pico will be a bit warmer than the tomahawk, but i'm not positive about this.

 since the pico uses the AD8397, one could base the sound on the op-amp. i love the AD8397 because it's lively, has great attack and punch, and isn't overly warm. i liked it in the PINT and it sounds great in the pico. using very sensitive IEMs on the pico, it's dead quiet. i think the strength of the pico is in its DAC, however, which is amazing for that size and at that price. as a stand-alone amp it's still really good, but i don't know if it's that much better than other similar offerings.


----------



## chouman

deleted


----------



## chouman

Last night while listening to my Pico with my HD600s, I definitely heard lots of details in the music I had never heard before or paid attention to. This is one of the Pico's, and I assume Headamps other amps', greatest strengths. Tremendous sound/headstage, very detailed, balanced across the frequencies, etc. 


 BUT, I definitely felt on some recordings that I would've liked more warmth. Which is a bit contradictory to kugino's post about the signature of the pico. Could be the recordings. Then again, perhaps I need tubes in the end. My dream amp is the Zana Deux, which I had the privilege to audition at my first meet. This amp had the pico's detail and soundstage but with the oomph and soul I'm looking for. Guess it's time to pull out the piggy bank. I'll need lots of them.

 This is no knock to the Pico of course. Maybe it's just a sign that Boomana's thread is true for me. Maybe I need a desktop amp for the extra oomph I'm looking for. The pico more than satisfies my needs at the moment though as a very convenient quality dac/amp combo.


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Last night while listening to my Pico with my HD600s, I definitely heard lots of details in the music I had never heard before or paid attention to. This is one of the Pico's, and I assume Headamps other amps', greatest strengths. Tremendous sound/headstage, very detailed, balanced across the frequencies, etc. 


 BUT, I definitely felt on some recordings that I would've liked more warmth. Which is a bit contradictory to kugino's post about the signature of the pico. Could be the recordings. Then again, perhaps I need tubes in the end. My dream amp is the Zana Deux, which I had the privilege to audition at my first meet. This amp had the pico's detail and soundstage but with the oomph and soul I'm looking for. Guess it's time to pull out the piggy bank. I'll need lots of them.

 This is no knock to the Pico of course. Maybe it's just a sign that Boomana's thread is true for me. Maybe I need a desktop amp for the extra oomph I'm looking for. The pico more than satisfies my needs at the moment though as a very convenient quality dac/amp combo._

 

my opinion on the pico vs. predator is based on reports i've read in other threads. maybe warm isn't the right word - a bit more relaxed than the predator's up-front sound.

 i actually don't find the pico warm, which is why i said, "isn't overly warm" in my previous post. the AD8397 op-amp is certainly not a warm sounding op-amp by any means. the DAC has something to do with it as well...i've not used the pico in amp-only mode so haven't formed an opinion about the merits of the amp section of the pico.

 i would also say that generalizations of tubes vs. SS in terms of their warmth is just that - a generalization. there are "warm-sounding" SS amps, too...but i think you're right that some other amp might be preferable for that last bit of "oomph" for you hd600.


----------



## Ricey20

hmm im having trouble setting up the pico to work with ASIO. It keeps showing up as beyond logic in the offline asio4all, anyone have any ideas?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hmm im having trouble setting up the pico to work with ASIO. It keeps showing up as beyond logic in the offline asio4all, anyone have any ideas?_

 

Did you follow the instuctions in the thread that's in the computer audio forum? Are you using foobar?


----------



## Ricey20

yep, well even before i can use foobar ASIO4ALL needs to work but it just keeps showing beyond logic no matter what i try. Did the instructions to see if it would play anything even though it says beyond logic but i get nothing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Wonder if using Vista x64 has anything to do with it.


----------



## SR-71Panorama

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Icarium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It does not accept 24/96 over usb. I am using foobar2k and asio._

 

I think that USB's limit is redbook 16 bit. I dont think USB 1.1 or 2.0 are capable of piping 24/96 w/out resampling.

 ...looking forward to USB 3.0, lol.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SR-71Panorama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think that USB's limit is redbook 16 bit. I dont think USB 1.1 or 2.0 are capable of piping 24/96 w/out resampling.

 ...looking forward to USB 3.0, lol._

 

Custom drivers (M-Audio, Audigy...) allow to get 24/96 out of USB, DAC1 can do it even with windows drivers. 
 But for redbook recording it's irrelevant unless you use resampling, which *might* help with inferior DACs, Pico has state of the art onboard upsampling DAC, so upsampling it off line might do more harm than good, as with more data to transfer the jitter will be higher too.


----------



## melomaniac

has anyone compared the PICO (and the Predator) to other USB DACs? like, dare I say, the Total Bithead or the slightly less portable USB versions of the DAC1 etc?

 edit1: I am always looking for good USB DACs... didn't much like the Apogee mini, couldn't justify a Brick...

 edit2: as a happy tomahawk-user, I still kept my total bithead around, if only because every so often I need the USB DAC or a second amp for a second rig. now that I read about the predator, I wonder if it would replace both the bithead and the tomahawk? how would you say either Pico or Predator would relate to the tomahawk and/or the other small USB DACs: more similar or more different in their sound and use? anyone?


----------



## blessingx

Just this morning hearing the Pico as a DAC pumped to an Extreme Platinum (using mostly Edition 9s). It is quite a really nice DAC. Very good top end and detail. Will have to compare to the Lavry at some point. Now only if it had balanced outputs and I could get it away from the computer with optical/coaxial in.


----------



## chouman

Does anyone use the pico with another source other than the ipod for portable use? I'm considering going a different route than my ipod 4g -> turbodock -> to pico for my portable setup.


----------



## acidtripwow

I received my Pico with DAC a few days ago. With my Future Sonics M5, Cotton Dock and Ipod 60GB Video I really don't hear much of a difference between just using the headphone out on my Ipod. I think it sounds better with larger headphones like the Equation Audio RP-21. I couldn't really hear a big difference using the DAC either. I am a little disappointed with the sound quality for $500. Mine may be going back soon.


----------



## chouman

ouch! Are you getting bitperfect playback with the dac? Same as the headphone out?


----------



## Icarium

Edit. NM.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *acidtripwow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received my Pico with DAC a few days ago. With my Future Sonics M5, Cotton Dock and Ipod 60GB Video I really don't hear much of a difference between just using the headphone out on my Ipod. I think it sounds better with larger headphones like the Equation Audio RP-21. I couldn't really hear a big difference using the DAC either. I am a little disappointed with the sound quality for $500. Mine may be going back soon.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

What is the setup for the Pico from the computer? Are you using lossless?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Just got mine.
 It's sooo tiny, pictures just do not do justice; the quality of the craftsmanship and attention to details is outstanding, truly up to the highest Justin's standards (I also have GLite/DPS and GS-1).

 Out of the box impressions from DAC/Amp combo are very positive, hard to believe that sound of that quality comes out of the tiny portable. 
 Will try it tomorrow with GLite as a DAC only.


----------



## poo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *acidtripwow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I received my Pico with DAC a few days ago. With my Future Sonics M5, Cotton Dock and Ipod 60GB Video I really don't hear much of a difference between just using the headphone out on my Ipod. I think it sounds better with larger headphones like the Equation Audio RP-21. I couldn't really hear a big difference using the DAC either. I am a little disappointed with the sound quality for $500. Mine may be going back soon.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I went down that path with RSA The Hornet and sold it at a loss because I couldn't justify keeping it. Fingers crossed my experience will be different when I get the Pico... all part of the fun I guess


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *poo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went down that path with RSA The Hornet and sold it at a loss because I couldn't justify keeping it. Fingers crossed my experience will be different when I get the Pico... all part of the fun I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Actually, a few portables noticeably benefit from amplification, and Atrios are not one of them. I can't see much of a difference with podless (68 Ohms resistors) iM716 either. Yes, it's a tad cleaner, a bit punchier, but that's about it, definitely not night and day difference, not $500 for sure. May be Zune's onboard amp is that good.

 Used with high impedance cans or as a DAC is a completely different story.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Would you all say that the pico's performance is close to that of a good home amp like the gilmore lite?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you all say that the pico's performance is close to that of a good home amp like the gilmore lite?_

 

Afraid not, at least not right out of the box, but it certainly gets better and better. I'll compare with GLite tomorrow, after overnight burn in.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Afraid not, at least not right out of the box, but it certainly gets better and better. I'll compare with GLite tomorrow, after overnight burn in._

 

Thanks, this should help a lot. I need to find out if it really is capable of of being a main amp in a home rig and on the road. I know it's a lot to ask a little amp, but I need to know nonetheless.


----------



## grawk

Think of it as a replacement for your source, not your home amp.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Think of it as a replacement for your source, not your home amp._

 

Well that doesn't help because I am thinking about replacing my amp which is my ppx3 slam.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am very pleased with the ppx3, but I'm afraid that I may have to go portable due to my schedule. So I need something for at home and on the road.


----------



## grawk

If you have to go portable, nothing I've heard compares with the pico.

 I'd be hard pressed to compare the mpx3 with the pico, they're very different (I haven't heard a ppx3). That said, I'm not a big fan of the headphones you like, so I'm probably not who you should listen to for advice.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you have to go portable, nothing I've heard compares with the pico.

 I'd be hard pressed to compare the mpx3 with the pico, they're very different (I haven't heard a ppx3). That said, I'm not a big fan of the headphones you like, so I'm probably not who you should listen to for advice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Fair enough, would you say that the two(mpx3 and pico) are even midly comparable? I'm just trying to get an idea of what the range of its performance is before I dump my trusted ppx3 for it. I've read a lot of people say "it performs great for its size" but I can't tell if that means it's pretty good for a portable or if its pretty good period.

 Thanks!


----------



## grawk

It's pretty good, period, but it's not a high voltage tube amp.


----------



## kugino

the pico isn't a home replacement amp, imo. it can be a home replacement DAC, however. for traveling it's a no-brainer when you consider size, sound quality, etc.

 let's put it this way. if you travel most of the time and need something for your travels, but something that will also do some spot-duty at home, then the pico might do the job. however, if you travel some of the time and spend more time listening at home, you'd be better off keeping your ppx3. i don't think the amp portion of the pico is a long-term substitute for a good home amp.


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you all say that the pico's performance is close to that of a good home amp like the gilmore lite?_

 

Hrmm, how should I put this. The Pico is what it is. The Gilmore Lite is what it is. But if the Pico later increases to $349, there will be no doubt. With the AE-2 also at $349, that'd make HeadAmp's three lowest-end amps all at the same price. At that point you're really just deciding on your feature set. The Gilmore Lite has the fewest features but cranks out the most sound and is naturally a high-voltage and high-current output amp! You just can't compete with a 15V swing and 1W of power! It can tackle any headphone you might want to stick on it, from AKGs and Sennheisers to Grados and ATs!


----------



## Dash

Thanks for this bit of clarification. I have considered picking up a Gilmore Lite for my new W1000s. It seems that my D1 output to a Gilmore Lite would be a better computer solution for current hungry cans.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Thanks for the explanation guys. It really helps. I don't expect it to perform as well as a good home amp, but I need it to at least be comparable as it needs to drive my w5000(which don't seem that hard to drive). I was using a go-vibe with my sa5000 and 325i's when I went to the gf's house and didn't have much to complain about, so I should be good.

 Thanks!


----------



## grawk

It can drive the W5000s.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It can drive the W5000s._

 

With aplomb and it adds very nice punch to them, exactly what they need.


----------



## Elephas

The Pico does quite well with the Qualia, though it might've put in a request for a better source.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Elephas you've got to stop this madness mad of showing us your gear. lol You're making us peons rather jealous.


----------



## Elephas

Hehe, well... I wasn't going to post this photo, but... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Would you believe me if I said the Pico system is competitive with the Aristaeus system? I think the Qualia's speed, details and super humongous soundstage is incredibly involving with fast-paced electronica music.


----------



## jamato8

Now get some PortaPros and get rid of those headphones and really downsize. :^) 
 Oh, I know of a good home for them.


----------



## HardHeadCase

Who was it that was saying the amp section is a tweaked AE-2? The AE-2 is a Half a watt and the pico is a quarter watt. I have to say that ever since I received mine yesterday that I think it sounds fantastic. 701s been sitting on the shelf for 3 or 4 months. I even thought I made a mistake buying them because I was using them out of the head jack of my HK receiver. It was no mistake, they sound fantastic. I know exactly what gain on a wire is now. =)


----------



## Dash

So...the Pico has synergy with the W5000. Would it be safe to assume the synergy applies to the W1000?


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_since it doesnt have a normal cap like other amps i'm not expecting mine to change or "burn in"_

 

What type cap does this amp have?


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Elephas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hehe, well... I wasn't going to post this photo, but... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Would you believe me if I said the Pico system is competitive with the Aristaeus system? I think the Qualia's speed, details and super humongous soundstage is incredibly involving with fast-paced electronica music.




_

 

It looks so tiny,I would be a fraid to sneeze around it.LOL


----------



## jlingo

I have both: predator is not up-front. THESE SOUNDS ARE BOTH USING INTERNAL DAC, Thinkpad T60 Laptop, and UE11.
 Pico sound is in fact more upfront sounding compared to the predator. Predator soundstage is very expansive, SUPERBLY AIRY! VERY OPEN OPEN, TRANSPARENT. you can feel a very big sense of air spaces with predator. The bass and the high are I think the big strengh of predator, the bass goes very deep tight with authority WOW here and the high is very sparkling with clarity(GREAT FOR GUITAR).(Could be bright on unmatched system), Awesome separation and A VERY DETAILED amp Great for Classical. It's good for most type of music especially pop, rock, R&B. But on some recordings, I find the midrange(Female voices) is somewhat lacking compared to the hornet, and on certain situation I seem to be longing for more midrange. But then it's not even 200hrs burn-in yet. It’s got a WOW Factor because of the openness all a sudden nothing is congested. Perfect for IEM so you will never feel stuffy.

 Pico is on the other hand HYPNOTIC sounding! It’s got life, it’s got body, it’s got emotion and seduction to it. It’s about SINGING about MUSICALITY. The MIDRANGE IS ITS BIGGEST STRENGTH, SWEET, it’s more my most preferred type of midrange. The bass and the high are very articulate. Everything is very articulate. I guess that’s the great signature of Justin’s amp. What I like about Pico, is that it already sounds good from the very beginning you received the amp. The BODY and MIDRANGE RICHNESS really remind me of many high end home audiophile system I heard. LIQUID MILKY, FLOWY, SMOOTHY. If you love midrange, vocal, slow music, look no further but PICO!! Pico could accompany you during your lonely moment without wife nor girlfriend. 

 Anyhow, I’m very surprised that I have to say that Both Pico and Predator are EXCELLENT AMPS, again, I usually tend to prefer Predator for Rock, R&B, Fast sounding music. Pico when I feel like being seduced completely. But you won’t go wrong with either way. I could see how one would prefer one and the other, because they are both great in their own ways.

 Both pico and predator could be considered warm but not overly warm.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my opinion on the pico vs. predator is based on reports i've read in other threads. maybe warm isn't the right word - a bit more relaxed than the predator's up-front sound.

 i actually don't find the pico warm, which is why i said, "isn't overly warm" in my previous post. the AD8397 op-amp is certainly not a warm sounding op-amp by any means. the DAC has something to do with it as well...i've not used the pico in amp-only mode so haven't formed an opinion about the merits of the amp section of the pico.

 i would also say that generalizations of tubes vs. SS in terms of their warmth is just that - a generalization. there are "warm-sounding" SS amps, too...but i think you're right that some other amp might be preferable for that last bit of "oomph" for you hd600._


----------



## jlingo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BUT, I definitely felt on some recordings that I would've liked more warmth. Which is a bit contradictory to kugino's post about the signature of the pico. Could be the recordings. Then again, perhaps I need tubes in the end. My dream amp is the Zana Deux, which I had the privilege to audition at my first meet. This amp had the pico's detail and soundstage but with the oomph and soul I'm looking for. Guess it's time to pull out the piggy bank. I'll need lots of them._

 

Have you tried AE-2, it's even warmer than pico. I LOVE my AE-2 A LOT.


----------



## Hellenback

Originally Posted by Elephas 
  Quote:


 Hehe, well... I wasn't going to post this photo, but... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 





 Volunteer work paying well these days?


----------



## Ricey20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jaw007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What type cap does this amp have?_

 

Heres a quote from Justin:

 "The Pico capacitor you see is 1000uF, but it's purpose is probably different. It stays charged and absorbs turn-on surge that comes from the headphone amp. This prevents the li-ion charger from being fooled into thinking that the surge current from turning the amp on is an empty battery that needs to be filled. It really isn't of any use as a power supply capacitor, where it would just lower battery impedance. The impedance of a li-ion battery is so low the capacitor will do nothing to help. Might filter a little AC noise when the DC adapter is plugged in, but thats about it"


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Afraid not, at least not right out of the box, but it certainly gets better and better. I'll compare with GLite tomorrow, after overnight burn in._

 

All the testing was performed with Zued AKG-K271S, which as many say are not exactly portable amp friendly headphones. Not in the case with Pico, which drives them with ease at Low gain settings at 10-11 o'clock. Not sure that I'll ever need high gain for any of my cans, HD650 included.
 At no surprise DPSed GLite turned out to be a better amp. 
 First and the most noticeable thing is soundstage that expands in size quite substantially. There is clearer instruments separation and as a result crisper details. Bass becomes tighter and more textured, on Pico it sounds softer in comparison. After GLite, Pico sounds more compressed, with less air, and a hint of veil/warmth.
 Please note that all these differences are rather subtle and not as dramatic as they may sound and require careful listening to discern. If I didn't have GLite I would be more than happy with Pico alone, considering its amazing for portable SQ, size, price, and versatility. But only paired with a good desktop amp the Pico's DAC starts showing its real shine. The onboard amp is amazingly transparent too, as using headphone out to GLite does not introduce any noticeable coloration to the signal.

 Keep in mind that K271S are known to respond quite well to amplification, something less scalable like D2000 or ATH-ES7, for instance, might not even show such a difference.


----------



## milkpowder

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Elephas you've got to stop this madness mad of showing us your gear. lol You're making us peons rather jealous. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

x2

 no. keep posting pictures


----------



## number1sixerfan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All the testing was performed with Zued AKG-K271S, which as many say are not exactly portable amp friendly headphones. Not in the case with Pico, which drives them with ease at Low gain settings at 10-11 o'clock. Not sure that I'll ever need high gain for any of my cans, HD650 included.
 At no surprise DPSed GLite turned out to be a better amp. 
 First and the most noticeable thing is soundstage that expands in size quite substantially. There is clearer instruments separation and as a result crisper details. Bass becomes tighter and more textured, on Pico it sounds softer in comparison. After GLite, Pico sounds more compressed, with less air, and a hint of veil.
 Please note that all these differences are rather subtle and not as dramatic as they may sound and require careful listening to discern. If I didn't have GLite I would be more than happy with Pico alone, considering its amazing for portable SQ, size, price, and versatility. But only paired with a good desktop amp the Pico's DAC starts showing its real shine. The onboard amp is amazingly transparent too, as using headphone out to GLite does not introduce any noticeable coloration to the signal.

 Keep in mind that K271S are known to respond quite well to amplification, something less scalable like D2000 or ATH-ES7, for instance, might not even show such a difference._

 

Thanks! This post along with jlingo's are very helpful. I think I feel pretty comfortable about it doing what I need it to do.


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Da Pico has landed!































 And it sounds as good as it looks!


----------



## jamato8

Looks great with your headphones! So is that copper? Very cool.


----------



## Asr

I say we kidnap the Dreamer and hold him ransom for that Pico _and_ L3000! Along with his Mini-DAC and digital camera!


----------



## HardHeadCase

Ill bring the crowbar and the pliers.


----------



## fraseyboy

Is the overall SQ in amp section of the Pico as good as the overall SQ of a Little Dot II++ or similarly ranked amp? What would you say the sound quality of the DAC and Amp in it are equivalent to?


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the overall SQ in amp section of the Pico as good as the overall SQ of a Little Dot II++ or similarly ranked amp? What would you say the sound quality of the DAC and Amp in it are equivalent to?_

 

the DAC is way better than the zhaolu 2.5c that i used for a month...on par with the stello DA100, though perhaps not as warm as the stello.

 i'm still trying to get a feel for the amp. it's similar to the AD8397 PINT that i used to have in that it has great energy, has very tight and thumping bass, and is fun to listen to. there is good soundstage, though certainly this is more dependent on the specific headphones you listen to. while used as a DAC/preamp into my yamamoto, the yamamoto provides more warmth and the midrange is much better with the yamamoto. i love listening to vocals with the yamamoto.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Da Pico has landed!































 And it sounds as good as it looks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Beautiful color.WOW


----------



## fraseyboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the DAC is way better than the zhaolu 2.5c that i used for a month...on par with the stello DA100, though perhaps not as warm as the stello.

 i'm still trying to get a feel for the amp. it's similar to the AD8397 PINT that i used to have in that it has great energy, has very tight and thumping bass, and is fun to listen to. there is good soundstage, though certainly this is more dependent on the specific headphones you listen to. while used as a DAC/preamp into my yamamoto, the yamamoto provides more warmth and the midrange is much better with the yamamoto. i love listening to vocals with the yamamoto._

 

Hmmm ok...

 I'll just get an Little Dot then. I can't afford the Pico anyway... I was just captivated by it's epic beauty and wondered perhaps if I could sell lots of stuff and get it... But na.


----------



## CD44hi

question:

 I don't get any change in volume until I reach about 9ish. Anyone else experience this or this unit has a deffective volume pot?

 It would not bother me otherwise, but at this point (9ish), it can already be on the louder side for some sensitive iems with higher level recordings.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heres a quote from Justin:

 "The Pico capacitor you see is 1000uF, but it's purpose is probably different. It stays charged and absorbs turn-on surge that comes from the headphone amp. This prevents the li-ion charger from being fooled into thinking that the surge current from turning the amp on is an empty battery that needs to be filled. It really isn't of any use as a power supply capacitor, where it would just lower battery impedance. The impedance of a li-ion battery is so low the capacitor will do nothing to help. Might filter a little AC noise when the DC adapter is plugged in, but thats about it"_

 

Thank you for the info.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CD44hi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_question:

 I don't get any change in volume until I reach about 9ish. Anyone else experience this or this unit has a deffective volume pot?

 It would not bother me otherwise, but at this point (9ish), it can already be on the louder side for some sensitive iems with higher level recordings._

 

It would seem that something is wrong. I would email Justin.


----------



## HardHeadCase

what headphones are you using and what impedance setting are you using in the pico, and last but not least, what is the volume level on your computer if your using usb, or ipod if your not using usb?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CD44hi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_question:

 I don't get any change in volume until I reach about 9ish. Anyone else experience this or this unit has a deffective volume pot?

 It would not bother me otherwise, but at this point (9ish), it can already be on the louder side for some sensitive iems with higher level recordings._

 

I can barely hear anything until pot reaches 9 o'clock, guess it's just not linear in that area.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can barely hear anything until pot reaches 9 o'clock, guess it's just not linear in that area._

 


 Mine is perfectly linear with PK1 and D5000 right from turn on. In fact there is a tiny, minuscule, very hard to hear amount of sound at the minimum setting. Gets louder steadily all the way up.


----------



## HardHeadCase

I cant hear anything until the pot reaches 9 o'clock either, its not the pot though, its just the combo of the Pico and my 701s


----------



## mchang

stevenkelby,

 May I ask your opinion on the Pico and PK1 combination? It is what I'm envisioning with my work setup (MacBook Pro > Pico > PK1).

 Part of me keeps thinking that the Pico's going to be overkill for the PK1. But I don't think my Go-Vibe V5 is doing them justice.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine is perfectly linear with PK1 and D5000 right from turn on. In fact there is a tiny, minuscule, very hard to hear amount of sound at the minimum setting. Gets louder steadily all the way up._


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HardHeadCase* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cant hear anything until the pot reaches 9 o'clock either, its not the pot though, its just the combo of the Pico and my 701s_

 

Nothing at all? Does it come on suddenly or smoothly from 9 o'clock? Is that using the internal DAC?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mchang* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_stevenkelby,

 May I ask your opinion on the Pico and PK1 combination? It is what I'm envisioning with my work setup (MacBook Pro > Pico > PK1).

 Part of me keeps thinking that the Pico's going to be overkill for the PK1. But I don't think my Go-Vibe V5 is doing them justice._

 

Sure, I love it as much as I can love buds, it keeps me happy all day at work but I look forward to the big cans when I get home. 

 The Pico gives the PK1 a presence and soundstage that you won't get unamped, and it beats the Xin SuperMicro (was mine, sold to a work mate) I compared it with today out of my imod.

 I've never heard a go-vibe and haven't read all that much about them but I'm confident that the Pico will be an improvement. How much improvement, do you hear it clearly and is it worth it, is up to you to find out I guess.

 The Supermicro does do very well with them though and the difference is not huge. If PK1 is your only headphones maybe it is overkill, but will PK1 be your only cans for ever? Of course not, you're on head-fi! Also, if you don't have a top end source, but you do have a PC, get the DAC option. Heck, get the DAC anyway. I find it slightly better than an imod. If I didn't know which I was listening to though, I almost certainly couldn't guess correctly every time.


----------



## HardHeadCase

Overkill is better than a sharp stick in the eye.!!!


----------



## CD44hi

In my unit it has nothing to do with either source used (amp/dac) or headphones/iem used. 
 While you turn the knob from start you hear a very low level of music that remains constant until reaching 9ish, then it goes up.


----------



## stevenkelby

Just playing with mine now (PICO that is) and mine has a dead patch at the start too, it starts getting louder at about 8AM.

 I never noticed an issue before, just assumed mine didn't have the same thing you guys are on about. Now tat I notice, I still don't think it's any issue.

 I say it's fine, supposed to be like that. It needs a little space to get past the switch and start volume controlling.

 CD44hi, a few posts back you say that at 9'oclock it already is loud for IEMs, is there a sudden jump? I guess it's a pretty sensitive area but mine can still be ramped up very smoothly if I turn the knob very slowly. This is at a very low volume, I am using hi-impedance PK1 though.


----------



## CD44hi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just playing with mine now (PICO that is) and mine has a dead patch at the start too, it starts getting louder at about 8AM.

 I never noticed an issue before, just assumed mine didn't have the same thing you guys are on about. Now tat I notice, I still don't think it's any issue.

 I say it's fine, supposed to be like that. It needs a little space to get past the switch and start volume controlling.

 CD44hi, a few posts back you say that at 9'oclock it already is loud for IEMs, is there a sudden jump? I guess it's a pretty sensitive area but mine can still be ramped up very smoothly if I turn the knob very slowly. This is at a very low volume, I am using hi-impedance PK1 though._

 

This is using the 13ohm-UE10pro. In some recordings, using an ipod LOD, they are on the loud side already at the 9ish position. So this is probably a combination of the low impedance iem, recordings with higher sonic levels and the dead vol area. For other headphones with higher impedances, this is not an important/noticeable issue at all.


----------



## HardHeadCase

Comes on smooth, using both the DAC and the line in.


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CD44hi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In my unit it has nothing to do with either source used (amp/dac) or headphones/iem used. 
 While you turn the knob from start you hear a very low level of music that remains constant until reaching 9ish, then it goes up._

 

I just checked mine, it seems to be the same as you describe, a constant low level volume until about 9ish then it goes up.


----------



## CD44hi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just checked mine, it seems to be the same as you describe, a constant low level volume until about 9ish then it goes up._

 

Thanks for the feedback. For low impedance iems or headphones it may be an issue on louder recordings, as it is in my case with the ue10 that at a mere 13 ohms. I haven't experienced any (too high) volume issues with higher impedance cans as the 9ish start seems ok for those. BTW, is there any other iems as low as the ue10s? That is a low impedance...


----------



## nautilus

Sorry if this has been covered but my Pico just showed up via mailman carelessly shoving it into my mailbox (no signature required i guess?). Anyway is there anything wrong with switching the gain while it's playing some tunes or should I turn it off before I make the switch. I know there is no real reason to be doing this regularly but I was just curious if anyone knew of any ill effects it would cause?


----------



## jamato8

The only ill effect would be your ears if you switch to high and the volume is already up pretty good otherwise the unit should be fine.


----------



## HardHeadCase

Ottmar Liebert on my 701s through my Pico Dac,,,,,,this thing is outstanding. Ive been listening to old standards mostly since I got it and this newer recording really sounds amazing. Crystal clear, smooth as butter. e Luna Negra by Ottmar Liebert, give it a try! I installed Asio4All with Vista and I wont bet anybody parts on it but since I integrated Asio into Foobar, I swear it sounds better.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HardHeadCase* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ottmar Liebert on my 701s through my Pico Dac,,,,,,this thing is outstanding. Ive been listening to old standards mostly since I got it and this newer recording really sounds amazing. Crystal clear, smooth as butter. e Luna Negra by Ottmar Liebert, give it a try! I installed Asio4All with Vista and I wont bet anybody parts on it but since I integrated Asio into Foobar, I swear it sounds better._

 

There is a nice thread on ASIO4ALL setup
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/as...nation-221237/
 Plus most of the times it helps to disable onboard sound card and in Control Panel/Audio/Hardware/USB Audio Device/Properties/Properties select "Do not use audio features on this device" and check "Do not map through this device" checkbox. After computer reboot, all your audio will be disabled (the setting is global, in XP at least), pretty much audio device becomes invisible to Windows kmixer, but it'll still be functioning via ASIO.


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elnero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just checked mine, it seems to be the same as you describe, a constant low level volume until about 9ish then it goes up._

 

Yeah, I double checked with my Triple.Fi's and my Pico. Same here for me.

 -Ed


----------



## Ricey20

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is a nice thread on ASIO4ALL setup
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/as...nation-221237/
 Plus most of the times it helps to disable onboard sound card and in Control Panel/Audio/Hardware/USB Audio Device/Properties/Properties select "Do not use audio features on this device" and check "Do not map through this device" checkbox. After computer reboot, all your audio will be disabled (the setting is global, in XP at least), pretty much audio device becomes invisible to Windows kmixer, but it'll still be functioning via ASIO.



_

 

Just to let some know that I had problems trying to get ASIO4ALL to work with my Pico and Vista, kept showing up as Beyond Logic. Enoyin (the one who did the guide for the ASIO4ALL) told me that theres no real difference with using ASIO4ALL with Vista because it already sounds good without it, so I gave up trying to get it to work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit: Looks like Enoyin edited the guide now. "If you are using Vista I can't really recommend installing ASIO for playback solely any more, because there are several tests which have shown that there is no audible difference between using the normal settings and using ASIO. (I'll try to find a decent link for you guys)"


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I double checked with my Triple.Fi's and my Pico. Same here for me.

 -Ed_

 

It hasn't been a problem for me though, the volume doesn't seem to jump or anything like that, just takes a while to get started.


----------



## HardHeadCase

To use Asio4All I had to go into the settings in Foobar and select Asio4All as the playback device and then click Asio4All Virtual Devices in the Output tree and edit Asio4All and make sure the Left and Right channels are mapped and then restart Foobar. Then your good to go.


----------



## melomaniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Computerstud* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Correct me if I'm wrong please but the Pico's DAC has the acclaim Wolfson WM8740 which a simple google/head-fi search shows that it present in many $1000 DAC._

 

also in the following CD players: the Cambridge Audio 540C v.2, Cambridge Audio 640C v.2, Arcam DiVA CD73, Rega Apollo, and Arcam CD93. not too shabby company, all other things being equal (which of course they never are).


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *melomaniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_also in the following CD players: the Cambridge Audio 540C v.2, Cambridge Audio 640C v.2, Arcam DiVA CD73, Rega Apollo, and Arcam CD93. not too shabby company, all other things being equal (which of course they never are)._

 

The WM8740 is also in Arcam's DiVA CD192, FMJ CD33, and FMJ CD36, along with CA's Azur 740C and Onkyo's DX-7555.

 The Pico's AD1896 is also in the Arcam CD192, CD33, and CD36 btw, where it does full 24/192 upsampling.


----------



## milkpowder

The way the WM8740 is implemented in some of the CDP you mentioned, Asr, is very different though. (I'm sure you're aware of that)


----------



## kamal007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Da Pico has landed!











 And it sounds as good as it looks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

we need some impressions between the pico and apogee minidac


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kamal007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_we need some impressions between the pico and apogee minidac_

 

So far I can only compare them as DAC/amp combos, as I have yet to do any real listening with the Pico hooked up to the analog output of the Apogee.

 In this configuration, the first difference I noticed when listening to the Pico is the improved bass control as compared to the Apogee (using the L3000). I'd almost be willing to bet that the Pico has a lower output impedance than the Apogee's amp. Quick, dynamic bursts of bass pack a more powerful, yet abrupt punch, whereas the Apogee portrays such transients in a more muffled manner. Also, fast basslines are easier to decipher with the Pico, while they have a tendency to run together and sound less like distinct notes with the Apogee. This could lead some to percieve the Apogee to have more bass, as that indistinctness gives an impression of near-constant bass levels whereas the Pico's level fluctuates more with the music. Note for note, the Pico has an equal volume of bass, it is simply delivered in a different fashion.

 On a related note, the Pico seems to produce sharper transients, more rapid sudden changes in volume. The effect is to make sounds more viceral, but also closer sounding than from the Apogee, which has a larger, if more diffuse presentation. Likewise, the Pico produces a slightly more layered sound which lens itself to identifying and following individual instruments more easily. There is also a touch more high-end sparkle when listening to the Pico.

 When using my linear power supply with the Apogee it produces an equally smooth/grain-free sound to the Pico. However, the stock linear supply makes the sound a bit edgier/grainer, so the majority of Apogee users would likely find the Pico slightly better in this regard as well.

 There you have it; for my preferences, thus far, I've found the Pico to be a better-sounding one-box USB audio/headphone setup. I can see how some might prefer the somewhat more relaxed, diffuse presentation of the Apogee (w/linear PSU). Though the frequency response of the two is empirically nearly identical, I think many would find the Apogee to be the "warmer" sounding of the two units, like due to the aforementioned bass transient and sparkle issues. And one also must consider gear pairing, and as I've used the L3000 for this comparison, someone using a radically different sounding headphone might have a different preference between the two.


----------



## pianomav

Has anyone made a side-to-side sound comparison between the AE-2 and pico?


----------



## kamal007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So far I can only compare them as DAC/amp combos, as I have yet to do any real listening with the Pico hooked up to the analog output of the Apogee.

 In this configuration, the first difference I noticed when listening to the Pico is the improved bass control as compared to the Apogee (using the L3000). I'd almost be willing to bet that the Pico has a lower output impedance than the Apogee's amp. Quick, dynamic bursts of bass pack a more powerful, yet abrupt punch, whereas the Apogee portrays such transients in a more muffled manner. Also, fast basslines are easier to decipher with the Pico, while they have a tendency to run together and sound less like distinct notes with the Apogee. This could lead some to percieve the Apogee to have more bass, as that indistinctness gives an impression of near-constant bass levels whereas the Pico's level fluctuates more with the music. Note for note, the Pico has an equal volume of bass, it is simply delivered in a different fashion.

 On a related note, the Pico seems to produce sharper transients, more rapid sudden changes in volume. The effect is to make sounds more viceral, but also closer sounding than from the Apogee, which has a larger, if more diffuse presentation. Likewise, the Pico produces a slightly more layered sound which lens itself to identifying and following individual instruments more easily. There is also a touch more high-end sparkle when listening to the Pico.

 When using my linear power supply with the Apogee it produces an equally smooth/grain-free sound to the Pico. However, the stock linear supply makes the sound a bit edgier/grainer, so the majority of Apogee users would likely find the Pico slightly better in this regard as well.

 There you have it; for my preferences, thus far, I've found the Pico to be a better-sounding one-box USB audio/headphone setup. I can see how some might prefer the somewhat more relaxed, diffuse presentation of the Apogee (w/linear PSU). Though the frequency response of the two is empirically nearly identical, I think many would find the Apogee to be the "warmer" sounding of the two units, like due to the aforementioned bass transient and sparkle issues. And one also must consider gear pairing, and as I've used the L3000 for this comparison, someone using a radically different sounding headphone might have a different preference between the two._

 

Thanks. I really appreciate it. now, i have to gather some funds in order to get the pico =)


----------



## Edwood

I haven't found a computer yet that my Pico's USB DAC input hisses on, even with AC adapter plugged in charging the laptop battery at the same time. This scenario is often the widow maker of USB sound devices as the AC adapter introduces an insane amount of electrical noise.

 Should be noted that the hissing with the Predator with my Fujitsu P1610 was on battery power only.

 Speaking of noisy AC adapter, the only noise I've found is with my old Toshiba 3505 with the AC adapter plugged in. I get a ground loop buzz if I touch the outer case of the Pico. And only when I'm holding onto the case, as soon as I'm not touching it no noise or buzz. Funny, the volume knob doesn't buzz at all. So the outer case of the Pico is "live" to the ground? I'm assuming so, since that is a safety feature, for those that might want to listen to their Pico in the hot tub. (coughBeeleycough)

 Anyone else try this with their Pico? Plug in an AC adapter into your laptop, plug in your Pico, then touch the case and the knob, see if you can hear a buzz or anything.

 I'm going to try this with all my laptops and see if I can duplicate this ground loop buzz. (yes, I have a LOT of laptops, LOL.)

 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quick, dynamic bursts of bass pack a more powerful, yet abrupt punch, whereas the Apogee portrays such transients in a more muffled manner. Also, fast basslines are easier to decipher with the Pico, while they have a tendency to run together and sound less like distinct notes with the Apogee. This could lead some to percieve the Apogee to have more bass, as that indistinctness gives an impression of near-constant bass levels whereas the Pico's level fluctuates more with the music. Note for note, the Pico has an equal volume of bass, it is simply delivered in a different fashion.

 On a related note, the Pico seems to produce sharper transients, more rapid sudden changes in volume. The effect is to make sounds more viceral, but also closer sounding than from the Apogee, which has a larger, if more diffuse presentation. Likewise, the Pico produces a slightly more layered sound which lens itself to identifying and following individual instruments more easily. There is also a touch more high-end sparkle when listening to the Pico._

 

I couldn't have put it better. My thoughts exactly. PRAT with the Pico is fantastic. 

 I'm giving it more time with comparing to my Stello DA220 setup, I'll be posting impressions later. Eventually.....

 Maybe.....

 -Ed


----------



## Edwood

Hmmm.

 I get the same ground loop buzz with my Toshiba R25 with the same AC Adapter.

 I'll try a different AC adapter and see if it's just that AC adapter.

 *Edit - I tried a different Toshiba AC adapter, an older one. No ground loop buzz this time. I did get one weird loud pop noise when I touched the case at first. Static electricity discharge? Didn't happen again. So the buzzing must be coming from that particular AC adapter. I'll try this same AC adapter that is not buzzing with my R25 and try it with my older Toshiba 3505 and see if the buzz is gone as well, that will confirm it's the AC adapter that's at fault.

 *Edit 2 - Ground loop is still there, but much quieter with my Toshiba 3505 and the older AC adapter that wasn't buzzing with my Toshiba R25. I can only really hear is High gain and volume cranked to 1 O'Clock. No way I'd ever want to play anything at that volume with my Triple.Fi's. So practically speaking ground loop is not an issue with the older Toshiba PSU. I guess I'm going to relegate that newer PSU to back up use. Figures that the newer PSU is crap.

 *Edit 3 - I get a small amount of ground loop with my Fujitsu P1610 with the AC adapter plugged in, but it's only at really high volumes in high gain. So again, not as bad as the crappy Toshiba PSU. 

 -Ed


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Damnit I'm back in an expensive way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks Justin.


----------



## Edwood

Hmmmm. Might just be a "problem" with my Pico. Justin offered to check out my Pico and see if he can make the ground loop buzz go away.

 It doesn't even bother me since the ground loop only happens in instances where I'd never listen to music (that is if I don't want to go deaf). I mostly listen to music with my Pico with my desktop computer that doesn't have ground loop buzzing and I use my Fujitsu on battery power all the time anyways.

 But Justin's such a perfectionist that way. Awesome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


----------



## stevenkelby

I tried mine on 4 PCs and a laptop so far, in silent conditions, air con and everything off, real early morning or late night. At full power with the music paused I can't hear anything but the quietest possible hum, far quieter than the ticking of any ipod/imod when it's plugged into the input. Very impressive.


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I couldn't have put it better._

 

Not too surprising, since I learned quite a bit about critical listening from you


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *justin w.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) Are you offering gain customization?

 Probably not. Low gain works perfect for IEMs, high gain for everything else. 

 2) How much gain are you implementing on the Pico?

 Low is 2 (6dB), and high is 8 (18dB).

 3) I have read the AE-2 is as quiet as a mouse on Christmas day, will the Pico also be equally silent? 

 The Pico is quieter than the AE-2

 4) How the heck did you fit all those specs into the Pico? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wanted the Pico to be a true effort to see how much one person can do with a 2" box. Someone who saw the prototype and said to me "There's a lot of s**t in there...I would just put in 1 chip". I hoped what makes the Pico different from that would be recognized and I'm happy that it is so far._

 

Does the Pico work well with the Senn's HD650 headphones?I hope so because I just ordered some today for my soon to be Pico!


----------



## TR909

Yes the Pico works great with the 650's, provided you understand it won't work quite as well as a dedicated home amp with more robust power supply. I do have to say it drives my pair better than I've ever heard them out of a portable. I'm extremely happy with my purchase.

 I'm also extremely satisfied with the level of customer service Justin was able to afford me, even amidst all the craziness of getting the many preorders out the door. I originally received my gray pico w/DAC last Thursday and it sounded fantastic out of the box. My bliss was interrupted only a couple of hours into listening however because of a bad fuse. I emailed Justin right away and he responded immediately, telling me to overnight the amp back to him at his expense and he would diagnose it over the weekend. We remained in contact throughout and he kept me posted every step of the way. He wanted to keep the amp for the weekend to test it thoroughly. Long story short, I got the pico back today and it works perfectly. This experience was a stark contrast to the service I received from Stanley Beresford when I complained that he forgot to include a "bonus offer" digital cable with my TC-7510. 

 As far as the sound of the DAC and amp goes, it also clearly betters the Beresford for me in every way. I got really annoyed with all the zealous posts by a certain member who kept reiterating that the Beresford "destroyed" many $1000 and up DACs. I'm sorry but the Pico is the first product to make both my headphones and studio monitors sing as well as an apogee mini-dac. There was a glare and hardness to the Beresford that simply isn't there with the Pico. Testament to that is the fact that I've been home from work for nearly three hours now and haven't moved from my seat at all, not even to make dinner! The midrange is everything they say it is.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TR909* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes the Pico works great with the 650's, provided you understand it won't work quite as well as a dedicated home amp with more robust power supply. I do have to say it drives my pair better than I've ever heard them out of a portable. I'm extremely happy with my purchase.

 I'm also extremely satisfied with the level of customer service Justin was able to afford me, even amidst all the craziness of getting the many preorders out the door. I originally received my gray pico w/DAC last Thursday and it sounded fantastic out of the box. My bliss was interrupted only a couple of hours into listening however because of a bad fuse. I emailed Justin right away and he responded immediately, telling me to overnight the amp back to him at his expense and he would diagnose it over the weekend. We remained in contact throughout and he kept me posted every step of the way. He wanted to keep the amp for the weekend to test it thoroughly. Long story short, I got the pico back today and it works perfectly. This experience was a stark contrast to the service I received from Stanley Beresford when I complained that he forgot to include a "bonus offer" digital cable with my TC-7510. 

 As far as the sound of the DAC and amp goes, it also clearly betters the Beresford for me in every way. I got really annoyed with all the zealous posts by a certain member who kept reiterating that the Beresford "destroyed" many $1000 and up DACs. I'm sorry but the Pico is the first product to make both my headphones and studio monitors sing as well as an apogee mini-dac. There was a glare and hardness to the Beresford that simply isn't there with the Pico. Testament to that is the fact that I've been home from work for nearly three hours now and haven't moved from my seat at all, not even to make dinner! The midrange is everything they say it is._

 

Thank you for the info,it was educational!I can't wait for delivery.I will probably be able to diet,by not cooking as much either.LOL


----------



## HardHeadCase

Your gonna love it!


----------



## greydragon

For HD580/HD600 owners with HD650 cabling, what position is your Pico volume pot in, and what gain?

 For me, I'm listening comfortably on the first gain around 12º->1º, but for song songs I need it at 3º.

 I'm using the DAC via foobar through asio4all, max volume.


----------



## chouman

I'm using Cardas cabled HD600. You listen at 12 to 1 on low gain? Ouch! Depends on what level the recording was made. Usually, 12 is pushing it for me. Extended listening at that level gives me ringing ears.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chouman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using Cardas cabled HD600. You listen at 12 to 1 on low gain? Ouch! Depends on what level the recording was made. Usually, 12 is pushing it for me. Extended listening at that level gives me ringing ears._

 

Is the gain switch for upping,and,or lowering sound?Example a sound booster.


----------



## mchang

I'd also like to know what the gain setting is for.

 My current understanding is like that scene in Spinal Tap -- "Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure that's totally wrong.


----------



## grawk

gain = what makes it louder. 

 Lower gain = makes it less louder, Higher gain = makes it more louder.


----------



## Jaw007

what is the highest impedance for headphones allowable for the Pico?


----------



## grawk

Higher impedance won't be a limitation with amps. Higher impedance loads are easier on amps, not harder. You just get less power as a result. What matters more is sensitivity.


----------



## tjumper78

i was wondering the quality of the dac on pico compared to some low-end standalone usb dac's. i have DIYEDEN SVDAC04 USB DAC which was $140.
 i am looking for a better usb dac and/or a portable amp+usb dac combo, and pico looks like a beast that takes care of both.
 has anyone compared pico to low-end usb dacs?


----------



## grawk

It's been compared to high end dacs, and fares well. And it's definitely an order of magnitude better than my 1.x zhaolu.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Higher impedance won't be a limitation with amps. Higher impedance loads are easier on amps, not harder. You just get less power as a result. What matters more is sensitivity._

 

Thank you for the info.Your information has been very informative.


----------



## sunreal

Does anyone miss crossfeed on the Pico? 

 I'm considering to buy the Pico for my Sennheiser 595s; it would be my first headphone amp. I understand the extremely good DAC and decent amp should improve the separation of instruments and therefore the soundstage. But does that help enough to get the music 'out of' your head? 

 I do like my phones (currently connected to shabby line out on Macbook Pro), but it still feels as if the music is being played in my head, instead of in front of me. Will an amp like the Pico be able to solve that?


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sunreal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone miss crossfeed on the Pico? 

 I'm considering to buy the Pico for my Sennheiser 595s; it would be my first headphone amp. I understand the extremely good DAC and decent amp should improve the separation of instruments and therefore the soundstage. But does that help enough to get the music 'out of' your head? 

 I do like my phones (currently connected to shabby line out on Macbook Pro), but it still feels as if the music is being played in my head, instead of in front of me. Will an amp like the Pico be able to solve that?_

 

Not a big fan of crossfeed myself, as IMO it muddies the sound. But you can always switch to software plugin if you really need one.


----------



## jpnz

Maybe a igorant question but.. is there signal loss between the supplied 1' and 6' usb cable?


----------



## grawk

no


----------



## Jaw007

I know there is power loss between 1&6 ft.
 I have a external hardrive that will not get enough power using a 6ft.USB cable.I have to use the short cable that it came with.I belive it is only 16 inches in length.It is a Western Digital Passport
 120 gb. not much larger than an iPod video 30gb.


----------



## Capunk

Does using premium after-market USB cable like Kimber will improve the sound over stock USB cable? Theoretically they just carried digital data right?... err I confuse here...


----------



## grawk

That's because the WD drive isn't following the usb spec.

 I'd be shocked if the "premium" usb cables sounded different than regular usb.


----------



## Capunk

So premium USB cable = waste of money? 
 Belkin gold USB cable is sufficient enough?


----------



## mchang

So for hard-to-drive cans, like HD650, I would put Pico to high gain.

 For easy-to-drive IEMs, I would put the Pico to low gain. This would hopefully eliminate the very little volume range one gets with powerful amps driving IEMs, right? Instead of ear piercing volume at 9:00, it might be so at 10:00 or 11:00.

 If correct, and I plug in my HD650 and I reach ear-piercing levels at 12:00, should I switch to low gain -- allowing for max at 1:00 or 2:00. Is there a SQ or power trade-off?

 Sorry for the noob questions. My previous amps have not had adjustable gain.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_gain = what makes it louder. 

 Lower gain = makes it less louder, Higher gain = makes it more louder._


----------



## grawk

Best way to judge is to try it yourself. If you find a level that works for you, it doesn't matter what the gain setting is. Amps are just a way to turn electricity into sound.


----------



## Assorted

The Pico was shipped on December 27th, and it _finally_ passed through the Canadian customs! I'm soooooo excited!!!

 Just wondering, with the awesome DAC that's supplied in the Pico, would it help make the Dolby Headphone plugin for Foobar sound better?


----------



## HardHeadCase

The power and data pins on a usb connector are two different things, therefore data is not effected by the length of the cable.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sunreal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone miss crossfeed on the Pico? 

 I'm considering to buy the Pico for my Sennheiser 595s; it would be my first headphone amp. I understand the extremely good DAC and decent amp should improve the separation of instruments and therefore the soundstage. But does that help enough to get the music 'out of' your head? 

 I do like my phones (currently connected to shabby line out on Macbook Pro), but it still feels as if the music is being played in my head, instead of in front of me. Will an amp like the Pico be able to solve that?_

 

If you want crossfeed and an out-of-head experience, try SRS iWOW plug-in for Mac iTunes. The defaults are excessive, but it can be customized to provide much more subtile effects. SRS iWOW 2.0.2.255 - MacUpdate


----------



## Assorted

Just got my Pico, and it is absolutely wonderful.

 Compared to my CEC HD 53R, I have to say the Pico doesn't exactly stand up to a home-amp especially in the bass department, but the DAC sure is something. It annihilates every single line-out I have, including my DCP-150 and various PCDPs/DAPs. 

 I'm just a little mad at myself because I let the bottom plate scratch


----------



## themagician

Hi Guys,

 I'm Pico owner, i noticed when i listen and charge at the same time with computer as my source. It always stop after few songs and i have to stop start on my player.

 do you guys experience the same thing.

 Thanks,


----------



## kamal007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *themagician* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Guys,

 I'm Pico owner, i noticed when i listen and charge at the same time with computer as my source. It always stop after few songs and i have to stop start on my player.

 do you guys experience the same thing.

 Thanks,_

 

did you use foobar?


----------



## themagician

Yeah, i'm using foobar. do you encounter the same ?


----------



## elnero

Thus far I've not experienced anything like that using ASIO4All and foobar.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Nothing with ASIO4ALL as well.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nothing with ASIO4ALL as well._

 

What is ASIO4ALL ?Thanks in advance.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jaw007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is ASIO4ALL ?Thanks in advance._

 

It is Audio Stream Input/Output emulation software for low latency (like what you would need for singing through a mic and hearing yourself through speakers nearly instantaneously). It bypasses the windows audio mixing kernel (Kmixer) and therefore helps increase the sound quality.

 Google it.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is Audio Stream Input/Output emulation software for low latency (like what you would need for singing through a mic and hearing yourself through speakers nearly instantaneously). It bypasses the windows audio mixing kernel (Kmixer) and therefore helps increase the sound quality.

 Google it._

 

Thank you for the information.I down loaded the program and installed it.
 It must run invisibly.I do not see any icons.
 Thank you very much.


----------



## Manny Calavera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Assorted* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got my Pico, and it is absolutely wonderful.

 Compared to my CEC HD 53R, I have to say the Pico doesn't exactly stand up to a home-amp especially in the bass department, but the DAC sure is something. It annihilates every single line-out I have, including my DCP-150 and various PCDPs/DAPs. 

 I'm just a little mad at myself because I let the bottom plate scratch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 



 Did you get hit with any duty,etc when it arrived at your door ?


----------



## aluren

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sulcata_geo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My gray Pico arrived today.
 I've listend it from iMod,I surprized the transparent sound and huge sound stage._

 

how does the pico compared to the other amps you have with the imod?


----------



## tennisplyr3

I was contemplating getting one of these. I currently use HD650s the Corda Move as an amp, which I thoroughly enjoy for the bass impact and quality as well as the warmness of the overall sound. I was wondering if I would lose the base impact and quality if I were to get the Pico. I understand that people are saying that the Pico has a very lush sound, but I'm just concerned about losing the "punchiness" of the bass. Any thoughts?


----------



## mchang

Skylab has reviewed both in his portable amp thread. I know he has the Pico ranked higher overall than Move, but I don't recall his bass assessment. IMO I'd you're happy with Move, I'd stick with it. It didn't seem like there was a world of sound quality difference between these two amps.


----------



## sulcata_geo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aluren* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how does the pico compared to the other amps you have with the imod?_

 


 After 200 hours burn-in,I compared Pico with Xin SuperMacro4(latest mod,maxed out version;L&R OPA627BP 3rd&4th NJM4556AD),TTVJ Millett Hybrid,Hornet(M).

 My rig was iMod(4G,Apple lossless)>DIY mini-mini>Amp>ATH-W5000,ATH-ESW9

 Sound stage:Xin SM4>Pico>TTVJ>>Hornet
 The sound stage of SM4 is huge as if surrounding system,Pico is slightly narrow.

 Transparency:Xin SM4=Pico>TTVJ>Hornet

 Bass:Xin SM4>Hornet>TTVJ>Pico
 Bass of Pico is too tight. I felt Pico need more burn-in.

 Treble:Xin SM4>=Pico>TTVJ>Hornet
 Treble of Pico is slightly mellow than SM4.

 Sorry,bad English.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sulcata_geo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After 200 hours burn-in,I compared Pico with Xin SuperMacro4(latest mod,maxed out version;L&R OPA627BP 3rd&4th NJM4556AD),TTVJ Millett Hybrid,Hornet(M).

 My rig was iMod(4G,Apple lossless)>DIY mini-mini>Amp>ATH-W5000,ATH-ESW9

 Sound stage:Xin SM4>Pico>TTVJ>>Hornet
 The sound stage of SM4 is huge as if surrounding system,Pico is slightly narrow.

 Transparency:Xin SM4=Pico>TTVJ>Hornet

 Bass:Xin SM4>Hornet>TTVJ>Pico
 Bass of Pico is too tight. I felt Pico need more burn-in.

 Treble:Xin SM4>=Pico>TTVJ>Hornet
 Treble of Pico is slightly mellow than SM4.

 Sorry,bad English._

 

Thank you for the information!


----------



## jpnz

I am using the Pico right now and can someone see if i'm using Pico with foobar the right way?







 It says that it's unavailable, but the music and sounds are working through my Pico..

 Thank you


----------



## xdfjdkz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Manny Calavera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you get hit with any duty,etc when it arrived at your door ?_

 

That is what I am worried about as well before I place my order.


----------



## ManAtWork

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sulcata_geo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My rig was iMod(4G,Apple lossless)>DIY mini-mini>Amp>ATH-W5000,ATH-ESW9_

 

So strange about your set up, as you must use specific dock cable to enjoy the advantages from the modifications in iMod, why you use mini-mini cable? This makes the modification in iMod is ruined, and the sound wouldn't be better than a 4G iPod with general dock cable output. Any thing I missed?


----------



## Assorted

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Manny Calavera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you get hit with any duty,etc when it arrived at your door ?_

 

I can't quite remember, my family paid for it and I believe it was around $20-30. This was by _postal_ (and thank goodness).


----------



## antonyfirst

Sorry to hijack this thread for two secs, but:

 Assorted,

 I wonder if you received my PM's, as I thought we should have got in touch, while I'm not receiving any pm's or emails from you.


----------



## Assorted

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *antonyfirst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry to hijack this thread for two secs, but:

 Assorted,

 I wonder if you received my PM's, as I thought we should have got in touch, while I'm not receiving any pm's or emails from you._

 

Checking emails right away! Thank you!

 reply sent


----------



## antonyfirst

I've replied too. You can give me the email address you use more often, so we can keep our conversation there.


----------



## jterp7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jpnz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using the Pico right now and can someone see if i'm using Pico with foobar the right way?






 It says that it's unavailable, but the music and sounds are working through my Pico..

 Thank you_

 

Thats strange..it should be highlighted green (aka running). If you can change the volume through the windows controls its not working properly for Asio


----------



## jpnz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jterp7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats strange..it should be highlighted green (aka running). If you can change the volume through the windows controls its not working properly for Asio_

 

I cannot change the volume through windows controls, so i guess that's a good thing..

 By the way: does the pico (usb) shows difference in SQ when the ac adaptor also is connected?


----------



## apnk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jterp7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats strange..it should be highlighted green (aka running). If you can change the volume through the windows controls its not working properly for Asio_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jpnz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cannot change the volume through windows controls, so i guess that's a good thing..

 By the way: does the pico (usb) shows difference in SQ when the ac adaptor also is connected?_

 

My computer shows the same thing. When Foobar is closed Asio4all says that it's running, but when I use Foobar it says it's unvailable and the volume can't be changed so I guess it's working. 


 EDIT:: Wait I just switched to DS and it is noticibly softer, not as loud as asio, so I guess asio is working.


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## Dorito123

It should say unavailable when you are using the Dac and it should be running when you are not using it. I think. That control panel is for off-line settings.


----------



## jterp7

eh? when mine is in use it goes from green to female symbol..


----------



## Dorito123

Mine used to do that till I updated my ASIO, there is a new version out.

ASIO4ALL - Universal ASIO Driver


----------



## Manny Calavera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xdfjdkz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is what I am worried about as well before I place my order._

 


 I know the feeling.Usually if the shipper/seller will agree,I get them to right on the package that the "recipient will broker" This fixes it so that the courier
 company cannot try and charge you brokerage fee's.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Assorted* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't quite remember, my family paid for it and I believe it was around $20-30. This was by postal (and thank goodness)._

 


 Thanks.I am just 3 days away from eithier two Pico's or Two Predators...having a really hard time making up my mind.


----------



## kamal007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Manny Calavera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks.I am just 3 days away from eithier two Pico's or Two Predators...having a really hard time making up my mind. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

1 pico and 1 predator should be nice too =)


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## Wiggler

Hello I'm interested in buying a pico and am wondering if it can handle a 24 bit signal over the usb or is it limited to 16 bit?

 I would also like to know if it can do 24/96 over usb or is it limited to 24/48.

 Thank you.


----------



## mchang

On a Mac > Audio MIDI Setup, it gives you options for:
 32K, 44.1K, 48K Hz

 No matter which Hz you select, you get two choices after: 1c-16bit, 2ch-16bit


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wiggler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello I'm interested in buying a pico and am wondering if it can handle a 24 bit signal over the usb or is it limited to 16 bit?

 I would also like to know if it can do 24/96 over usb or is it limited to 24/48.

 Thank you._


----------



## Nylus

Does anyone think it is possible for any desktop rig (Amp + DAC) to beat the sound quality of the Pico w/DAC in under $500?


----------



## dw6928

my only problem (and I mean only!) problem with my Pico is that when using
 an adapter for my full size cans into the Pico, the little fellow weighs less than the adapter and goes flying! If you turn abruptly, the Pico shoots across the desktop. Other than that, it amazes me on a daily basis, and my serial # is 16 so I have it for a bit of time.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dw6928* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my only problem (and I mean only!) problem with my Pico is that when using
 an adapter for my full size cans into the Pico, the little fellow weighs less than the adapter and goes flying! If you turn abruptly, the Pico shoots across the desktop. Other than that, it amazes me on a daily basis, and my serial # is 16 so I have it for a bit of time._

 

Grado quarter to eighth inch plug Adapter @ HeadRoom - Right Between Your Ears


----------



## tfarney

So how long is the waiting list now?

 tim


----------



## dw6928

Andrew, precisely the adapter I use. The weight of the 1/4 female is heavy enough to move the Pico around quite a bit. Just a minor issue bear in mind.


----------



## tfarney

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dw6928* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Andrew, precisely the adapter I use. The weight of the 1/4 female is heavy enough to move the Pico around quite a bit. Just a minor issue bear in mind._

 

Velcro that little sucker to your desktop.

 Tim


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dw6928* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Andrew, precisely the adapter I use. The weight of the 1/4 female is heavy enough to move the Pico around quite a bit. Just a minor issue bear in mind._

 

I just keep adapter resting on the desk, not hanging from it.


----------



## dw6928

agreed, it just goes flying when I turn in my chair and the pull on the Pico is too much. perhaps I should find some sort of temporary adhesive but that would
 defeat the portability of the amp which was my motivation in getting it.


----------



## tfarney

How long was that waiting list?

 Tim


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dw6928* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_agreed, it just goes flying when I turn in my chair and the pull on the Pico is too much. perhaps I should find some sort of temporary adhesive but that would
 defeat the portability of the amp which was my motivation in getting it._

 

Use a little C clamp,and clamp it to the end of the table,and or desk.


----------



## uppis

First, yes, I have read that Pico shouldn't evaluate during burn in, but my ears tell different. I'm hearing difference in bass after 100-200 hours of intensive listening. It sounds fuller and little tighter, and it feels like there is little more bass. I'm not sure is that even possible, but I'm wondering have anybody else had this kind of experiences? Although I may just be getting used to Pico's sound or something, but anyway I like it.


----------



## dw6928

I found no difference in the s/q after 100 hours or 300 hours; it came out of the box magnificently and has not varied one iota.


----------



## dw6928

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jaw007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Use a little C clamp,and clamp it to the end of the table,and or desk._

 

A large part of the problem is that my full size headphones (701s and Denon 2000s) were recabled by Moonaudio and have a very weighty Furutech 1/4"
 plug. That plus the weight of the Grado 1/4-1/8 adapter is the root of the weight issue.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nylus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone think it is possible for any desktop rig (Amp + DAC) to beat the sound quality of the Pico w/DAC in under $500?_

 

Maybe you could ask Skylab how the PICO sounded vs his Meier Cantate?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tfarney* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Velcro that little sucker to your desktop.

 Tim_

 

Yah, I velcro'd my mini usb amp to the lid of my laptop a while back. It works, and then I can use the velcro on the amp to attach it to my ipod too.


----------



## druelle

Can anybody who uses the Pico with Beyerdynamic DT990 cans post their feelings on the synergy of the two? So far I've only come across one person who uses the DT990s with the Pico. Thanks in advance!


----------



## wolfen68

I've spent some time with a Pico comparing to my SR71 using a MicroDAC as a source and RS-1 headphones.

 I have to say the Pico is an impressive little piece of technology. It's well built and sounds very decent. I would recommend it to anyone looking for a simple solution to computer as a source audio, and a nice pocketable portable amp.

 With that said, I have some quibbles. These are all IMO with only four hours of evaluation....so don't hurt me....

 Another forum member mentioned this to me, but I didn't think much about it until I experienced it myself. Even the low gain setting seems a little hot for IEM use. Using my UE5c's, the slightest twitch past the "ON" position started to provide music a little louder than I prefer. 

 As far as sound, the Pico did sound good with my Grados....and the amp is obviously warmish, but what got me was the soundstage and presentation of bass. 

 Since I discovered Yuin PK-1's, my entire concept of bass has changed. At that time I used HF-1's mostly, and discovered that the HF-1's had plenty of bass, but it's not as impactful and tight as the Yuins. At that time, I tried RS-1's (again) and found that they do have a bass presentation similar to the PK-1's. Since then, I am literally addicted to that type of bass presentation.

 When comparing the Pico and SR71, I discovered that the Pico is like the HF-1's, and the SR71 more like an RS-1. The Pico is warm, fun, slightly fuller and has plenty of bass composed of texture....but it doesn't have the defined impact I hear from the SR71. The SR71 is far more neutral than the Pico and there was something about the Pico's presentation that tweaked me the wrong way while listening (which I still can't adequately describe). The SR71 also handily beat out the Pico on soundstage which is something you don't squander when you're a Grado user. This part of the comparison seemed so obvious that I would be surprised if lots of other users felt otherwise. The Pico definitely seemed more forward with a comparitively compressed soundfield. 

 As I moved to certain Rock (such as ACDC), my perception of the differences became more difficult...but with slower stuff (folk, blues, alt. country) with lots of space between notes, the SR71 provided a more enjoyable presentation to my ears. 

 Normally, I would never post these types of impressions on a new amp...but word on the street has been that what I hear now is what the Pico will remain.

 I also have to agree that you won't believe how small the Pico is until you see it in the flesh.....


----------



## Dorito123

So, would you say that the PK-1s would make a good combination with the Pico?


----------



## mchang

I'm listening to my Pico + PK1 combo right now, and I love it. I've been enjoying it tremendously for the few weeks I've had both. Great detail and extremely engaging. I've enjoyed it much more -- maybe because it's my work setup and I'm just listening, not analyzing -- than my current home setup.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dorito123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, would you say that the PK-1s would make a good combination with the Pico?_


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dorito123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, would you say that the PK-1s would make a good combination with the Pico?_

 

Yes...but not the best I've heard. But if you own PK-1's and think they sound thin, this amp may help...at the expense of some of those minor quibbles I mentioned.


----------



## Asr

I find that the Pico is not completely silent on my laptop. My computer is an Asus Z71V. There's a tiny, tiny amount of low-level hiss that I can hear with the AD2000. It's so low that I could almost think I might be imagining it, but no, it's definitely there.

 Tested of course at High gain with volume maxed out, connected but no music playing.


----------



## jamato8

But if it is connected to your computer then it is your computer and not the Pico.


----------



## Asr

Er yeah, that was kinda my point - USB noise that the Pico picks up, I should've mentioned that. Disconnected, I can't hear this ultra low-level hiss.


----------



## donunus

So cmon now ASR, whats the story on the ad2000/pico synergy?


----------



## Asr

NO COMMENT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Patience is a virtue and details will come to those who wait...

 I'll just add though that comparing the AE-2 in my CD-based system against the Pico w/ laptop (FLAC over ASIO) is actually kinda fun. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've also saved notes of the AE-2 with my former Arcam FMJ CD33 because that CDP used the same DAC as the Pico (though the AD797 and OPA2134 were in its analog output stage, crap!).


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find that the Pico is not completely silent on my laptop. My computer is an Asus Z71V. There's a tiny, tiny amount of low-level hiss that I can hear with the AD2000. It's so low that I could almost think I might be imagining it, but no, it's definitely there.

 Tested of course at High gain with volume maxed out, connected but no music playing._

 

Can you please try running laptop off batteries?


----------



## donunus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NO COMMENT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Patience is a virtue and details will come to those who wait...

 I'll just add though that comparing the AE-2 in my CD-based system against the Pico w/ laptop (FLAC over ASIO) is actually kinda fun. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've also saved notes of the AE-2 with my former Arcam FMJ CD33 because that CDP used the same DAC as the Pico (though the AD797 and OPA2134 were in its analog output stage, crap!)._

 

I'll be patient. Just want to know when and where i can read your review


----------



## ueyteuor

so is this suppose to be the best portable amp out there currently?? that can be compared to even home amps?


----------



## fkclo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ueyteuor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so is this suppose to be the best portable amp out there currently?? that can be compared to even home amps?_

 

For me, there are a few others that I prefer more if we compare the amp section only.

 The key strength of the Pico with DAC is convenience, in my opinion, not sonic excellence. Traveling with a notebook computer, the Pico provides the convenience nothing can beat.

 We can always compare any portable against a home amp, but I don't think Pico hold its own before the bigger brothers.

 F. Lo


----------



## Asr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you please try running laptop off batteries?_

 

AC or battery power on my laptop makes no difference, I hear the ultra-low hiss either way.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ueyteuor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so is this suppose to be the best portable amp out there currently?? that can be compared to even home amps?_

 

Where are you getting this idea from? I for one haven't heard any portables that can possibly compare to a good AC-powered home amp.


----------



## GreatDane

I've not heard any hiss with my Pico using the DAC with my laptop(using the Pico amp), this is using AC power for the laptop. If I use the Pico as DAC sending the analog to my tube amp there is terrible noise with laptop running on AC but that noise completely disappears if I run on laptop battery.

 I haven't tried using the laptop power supply with my Tripp-Lite isolation transform yet, as is, it's plugged into a Tripp-Lite Isobar 4 Ultra.


----------



## number1sixerfan

Anyone out there using them with IEM's? It is true that it can get too loud with a slight movement of the knob?


----------



## ueyteuor

im confused about the "clear" color option... anyone have a pic of a clear pico?


----------



## MrSlacker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ueyteuor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_im confused about the "clear" color option... anyone have a pic of a clear pico?_

 

clear = silver


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *number1sixerfan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone out there using them with IEM's? It is true that it can get too loud with a slight movement of the knob?_

 

That shouldn't be a concern. I've used my Pico with ER4P with low gain and there is good volume range available. The volume knob has a slight tightness and won't easily turn causing


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That shouldn't be a concern. I've used my Pico with ER4P with low gain and there is good volume range available. The volume knob has a slight tightness and won't easily turn causing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

...and I had trouble with UE5c's. It would work, but it was touchy without much volume adjust range. It is true that the volume knob seems suffuciently tight to help prevent ear blasting mishaps.


----------



## WindowsX

People, don't get too hyped. It's just small battery-powered amplifier.....


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've not heard any hiss with my Pico using the DAC with my laptop(using the Pico amp), this is using AC power for the laptop. If I use the Pico as DAC sending the analog to my tube amp there is terrible noise with laptop running on AC but that noise completely disappears if I run on laptop battery.

 I haven't tried using the laptop power supply with my Tripp-Lite isolation transform yet, as is, it's plugged into a Tripp-Lite Isobar 4 Ultra._

 

X2, the only faint hiss I heard is at max volume in high gain with sensitive iems (X3 in my case). But that is not USB related and I guess inevitable, even in Predator. 
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f15/predator-hiss-289595/
 Wondering if this is what Asr hears, as USB noise is very distinguishable from floor noise.
 I have had what seemed like USB incurred noise, turned out a ground loop when I had two USB DACs connected to GS-1 in parallel.


----------



## jamato8

It is the source in both cases. Who cares if there is hiss at max volume anyway? There is no practical reason, sonically or otherwise that it really matters when at max volume.


----------



## Asr

Just thought I'd share that I finished my exhaustive comparative listening between the Pico and the AE-2 last night. More than 64 total hours listening in all (not continuous of course, spread across since the time I initially received the Pico in Dec '07 and up until last night) and about 3 pages of notes were saved.

 Multiple scenarios were documented:
 - Pico DAC vs Arcam FMJ CD33 DAC section (trying to compensate for the effect of the CDP's analog stage along with the AE-2's clearly-different sounding amp section)
 - Pico amp vs AE-2 on Arcam FMJ CD33
 - Pico amp vs AE-2 on Accuphase DP-500
 - Pico vs HeadRoom 2006 Total Bithead (DAC vs DAC) for lossless music
 - Pico vs HeadRoom 2006 Total Bithead (DAC vs DAC) for DVD movies

 No comparative listening was done with the RSA Predator that I owned. Well ok I did compare them for maybe 30 minutes but I won't write about what I heard either here or privately or on any other site, due to RSA's claim of this product needing at least 500 hours of burn-in, so I would appreciate if no one asked me about it. No offense to RSA intended but I don't have time to run burn-in cycles anymore and I find it prohibitive to reviewing. I plan to no longer write reviews of equipment with manufacturer claims of burn-in exceeding 300 hours on solid-state electronics, or 500 hours on headphones. I can concede to manufacturer-claimed burn-in of up to 300 hours on electronics but I fail to understand any reason or motivation for burn-in beyond that point. While my background is in CS and not EE, I do have enough technical knowledge of electronics to not believe that burn-in can make a significant difference for any equipment other than headphones, past an approximate 2-week period, as that seems to be the norm in the audio industry.

 I've decided to write a full-length review of the AE-2 first, which will be followed by my Pico review. Both will be published on StereoMojo.com.


----------



## tha_dude

Hi, if this has been asked before, I'd appreciate it if you guys could please point me to the relevant thread/posts:

 To use the Pico's USB DAC, right now I'm using ASIO4ALL through foobar. Do I have to set anything else in foobar besides choosing the DAC as the output device?


----------



## elnero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tha_dude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi, if this has been asked before, I'd appreciate it if you guys could please point me to the relevant thread/posts:

 To use the Pico's USB DAC, right now I'm using ASIO4ALL through foobar. Do I have to set anything else in foobar besides choosing the DAC as the output device?_

 

Here's some info for you.


----------



## MontanaJustin

Might be going the wrong direction with this thought, but can any device with USB work for getting a decent signal to the Pico?

 I was thinking specifically about using an Amazon Kindle as source going into the Pico. Am I missing anything? Clearly it wasn't intended for high SQ, but it does hold files, and it does have a USB out...


----------



## grawk

You'd have to have a device that supports audio playback. It would have to have usb drivers for USB-Audio. And it has to act as a USB host. If all those are true, then you can probably use the kindle with the pico.


----------



## MontanaJustin

Hmm - what would be the best method of finding that out? I know it plays audio (meant for audiobooks) but do not know about the USB drivers or being able to act as a USB host...

 (sorry, total lack of tech skills here...)


----------



## MontanaJustin

Looks like Kindle can operate as a USB host...

Ideas for Hacking Kindle WiFi - MobileRead Forums
 (towards the bottom)


----------



## melomaniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've decided to write a full-length review of the AE-2 first, which will be followed by my Pico review. Both will be published on StereoMojo.com._

 

cool, let us know when they're online.


----------

